# HarperCollins makes libraries rebuy ebooks



## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

http://gizmodo.com/#!5776518/harpercollins-forcing-libraries-to-re+buy-ebooks-after-26-checkouts

This is getting ridiculous. I thought it was bad enough that buying an ebook can be more expensive than the actual book, and now a publisher does this.

HarperCollins apparently set up an email address to write to them on.
[email protected]


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

That is completely insane!

- Merg


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. The only question is, after how many 'borrowings' should an ebook expire and have to be repurchased by libraries? Personally, I think 26 is a bit low, but then it's not my company. 

One of the overriding themes of the digital age is that many consumers believe that everything should be free. That is not a viable business model. 

Put yourself in the publisher's place.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Nick said:


> Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. The only question is, after how many 'borrowings' should an ebook expire and have to be repurchased by libraries? Personally, I think 26 is a bit low, but then it's not my company.
> 
> One of the overriding themes of the digital age is that many consumers believe that everything should be free. That is not a viable business model.
> 
> Put yourself in the publisher's place.


26 is way too low. There is no way a library has to replace every book they have after even 50 checkouts. They might as well say that when you buy an ebook, you have to rebuy it after so many times or have to rebuy a mp3.

But the library does have a good point. Electronic formats in use now could become obsolete and they'd need to get the new format.

This really doesn't affect me, as I have a Kindle which doesn't support library ebooks, but I'm getting tired of some of the tricks the publishers come up with. The music industry has gotten better, but with movies that can come with unusable expired product that you have to pay for, or ebooks that can cost more than the hardback, it just doesn't make much sense. So now HarperCollins won't get libraries to buy any more of their ebooks, and it won't increase their sales to consumers. Those who would get an ebook from the library are unlikely to buy it, just like a physical book.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

Nick - we're talking about LIBRARIES here. 26 'lendings' is WAY low. This is just another example of a publisher being as greedy as possible.

What if they'd said that, after loaning a dead-tree version out 26 times, you had to repurchase it?

Publishers are just like the RIAA and MPAA who want the whole world to move to a pay-per-view and pay-per-listen model, in this case pay-per-read.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> http://gizmodo.com/#!5776518/harpercollins-forcing-libraries-to-re+buy-ebooks-after-26-checkouts
> 
> This is getting ridiculous. I thought it was bad enough that buying an ebook can be more expensive than the actual book, and now a publisher does this.
> 
> ...


eBooks from the library are pretty nice. I've read a few on my iPod Touch -- yes, that tiny screen. Works fine, especially in a cramped airline coach seat, although I have to turn the page pretty often.

I can check out the book for 21 days. There's no renewal, but if no one else is waiting for the book it's available for up to three checkouts for the same patron. No pickup, no return, no overdue fine. 

Let's hope HarperCollins is the only outfit to impose this limit. I'd agree that if there must be a limit it should be more like 52 than 26.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> This really doesn't affect me, as I have a Kindle which doesn't support library ebooks, but I'm getting tired of some of the tricks the publishers come up with.


True, your Kindle doesn't support these books, but your computer does. So don't rule out the library ebooks.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Nick said:


> Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. The only question is, after how many 'borrowings' should an ebook expire and have to be repurchased by libraries? Personally, I think 26 is a bit low, but then it's not my company.
> 
> One of the overriding themes of the digital age is that many consumers believe that everything should be free. That is not a viable business model.
> 
> Put yourself in the publisher's place.


I have to agree on both counts... Agree that the limit is too low, but also agree that the limit is probably necessary.

An eBook never wears out... A library can rent a single eBook to multiple people at the same time, where they otherwise would have been required to buy multiple copies of a popular book.

I don't know what the ultimate number should be... but 26 seems like a good negotiation point relative to the infinity that it currently is without a limit.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I have to agree on both counts... Agree that the limit is too low, but also agree that the limit is probably necessary.
> 
> An eBook never wears out... A library can rent a single eBook to multiple people at the same time, where they otherwise would have been required to buy multiple copies of a popular book.
> 
> I don't know what the ultimate number should be... but 26 seems like a good negotiation point relative to the infinity that it currently is without a limit.


Yes, they can lend out to multiple people, but it's not unlimited. When I was looking at the offerings from my Library, which uses the Ohio eBook project, I saw ebooks where there was a waiting list because all the available "copies" were checked out.

Of course there are at least two publishers that don't allow library loans of ebooks at all.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> An eBook never wears out... A library can rent a single eBook to multiple people at the same time, where they otherwise would have been required to buy multiple copies of a popular book.


Overdrive, a major supplier of ebooks and software to libraries, only allows one check-out at a time. So if a library only buys one copy of an ebook, that is all they can check out; just like the printed copy.

I also read where the Upper Hudson Library System (Albany NY area) has started a boycott of HarperCollins ebooks and that Overdrive has moved the HarperCollins ebooks to a special catalog. *Examiner.com article*


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Hopefully they will end up negotiating to a happy medium where everybody can be happy.

I would hate to see libraries go away... but with eBooks, the library almost becomes an unneeded middle-man... A book publisher could just rent their own books and bypass libraries altogether at some point in the future.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Hopefully they will end up negotiating to a happy medium where everybody can be happy.
> 
> I would hate to see libraries go away... but with eBooks, the library almost becomes an unneeded middle-man... A book publisher could just rent their own books and bypass libraries altogether at some point in the future.


Maybe for popular books, but libraries also are an important source of information that won't be put in ebook format. However I do know my local library is fairly unique in it's holdings.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

dpeters11 said:


> Maybe for popular books, but libraries also are an important source of information that won't be put in ebook format. However I do know my local library is fairly unique in it's holdings.


I don't know about that... Reference books were available in digital format before popular books were to my knowledge. Reference books started being available in PDF format long ago because of search capabilities in the reader.

I don't see a big leap to making eBooks instead of PDFs... Reference books benefit even more than entertainment books because of the ability to search them faster than searching a real book in your hands.

Again, I'm not anti-library... I'm just noting that as electronic/portable readers increase in popularity... I expect libraries to eventually become obsolete because libraries can exist on the internet in digital format with worldwide access and only require one building to store all the computer racks... instead of having a library in every neighborhood.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't know about that... Reference books were available in digital format before popular books were to my knowledge. Reference books started being available in PDF format long ago because of search capabilities in the reader.
> 
> I don't see a big leap to making eBooks instead of PDFs... Reference books benefit even more than entertainment books because of the ability to search them faster than searching a real book in your hands.
> 
> Again, I'm not anti-library... I'm just noting that as electronic/portable readers increase in popularity... I expect libraries to eventually become obsolete because libraries can exist on the internet in digital format with worldwide access and only require one building to store all the computer racks... instead of having a library in every neighborhood.


I thinking more historical/family history books and documents, many of which are either only in a physical format, or microfilm.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I'm out of touch with the whole library thing. The issue of books being available in the coming era of eBooks must have a different side.

For those who, like me, can readily afford the equipment to read the books, there is no real issue - I don't need no stinkin' library loaner from HarperCollins (HarperCollins??? Really??? That's the publisher at issue???).

But for those seven year old kids whose parents can't afford a used Kindle, much less an iPad, what exactly are the libraries offering? Or is this a situation I am very familiar with.

My mother used to patronize the small County branch public library in her town having the poorly paid librarians getting inter-library loans for new release crime novels she wanted to read. She could never see the irony in the fact that she could have bought the building the library was in and let them have the space rent free without noticing a significant drop in her portfolio.

So are the eBooks being checked out by seven year old kids in the ghettos and the poor elderly who will never know what a flat-panel TV looks like? Or are they being checked out by people who ought to be supporting the publishing industry by buying the book?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

dpeters11 said:


> I thinking more historical/family history books and documents, many of which are either only in a physical format, or microfilm.


It will actually be pretty easy to convert those microfilm to an eBook format... someone will come up (if they haven't already) with an automated device where someone can just put in a bunch of microfilm and have a computer scan-and-convert it.

You can believe all those kinds of documents will get converted eventually... It just makes sense to convert them.

I like books, and most of the time I prefer a real book to an eBook myself... but I figure I'm on the losing side of that... and within a generation or two we might have kids who have barely even seen a book that wasn't an eBook.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

> It will actually be pretty easy to convert those microfilm to an eBook format... someone will come up (if they haven't already) with an automated device where someone can just put in a bunch of microfilm and have a computer scan-and-convert it...


One word: OCR


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Nick said:


> One word: OCR


Yep...

I was just thinking that there ought to be a way to just stack up a bunch of microfilm in a "loader" of some kind and let the conversion process run unattended.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Nick said:


> One word: OCR


Though some of the documents are hard enough for a person to read, some of the census records or ship's registries can be tough.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Hopefully they will end up negotiating to a happy medium where everybody can be happy.
> 
> I would hate to see libraries go away... but with eBooks, the library almost becomes an unneeded middle-man... A book publisher could just rent their own books and bypass libraries altogether at some point in the future.


I suppose publishers could rent out books, but I can borrow books free -- yes, I know that comes out of my taxes.

One reason my wife didn't want to buy a Kindle was that there are no library ebooks available for that device. I didn't buy my iPod Touch to read ebooks, but being able to do so is a nice extra.

And if you like to read old books there are thousands available for download without going through a library.


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

I think that the library model needs to be reworked from scratch, rather than this "shoehorn" solution of a certain number of uses. Under this scenario libraries are basically being asked to pay-per-rental. One problem I see is that a library might purchase a particular ebook that never gets checked out, or only gets checked out a few times. While on the other end, the library must buy additional "copies" of the most popular titles. 

Maybe the libraries should look for a solution that is more of a "pay to play" model, similar to how radio stations pay royalties. For example, college radio stations pay the lowest annual royalty fees based on the number of listeners. This is because college radio stations are non-profit, and usually student run. The radio station pays a set royalty, but then can play any of the licensed music. That is, the radio station isn't paying the royalty directly to the artist. Rather, the licenser takes care of payments to the artists.

The library might pay a fixed fee based on the number of patrons or the number of ebooks checked out each year.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I hate to say it... but one day libraries might go away as we know them.

I can see a day where most people have a device like a Kindle or iPad and have thousands of books in their hands while also having access to millions on the internet cloud... with no need to go to a library anymore.

It's just so much easier to give the equivalent of access to a large library in a small handheld device than it is to grant access to physical books.

And I'm a person who likes actual books... and never thought I'd see the day when I would agree that physical books are probably on the way out.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

"phrelin" said:


> I'm out of touch with the whole library thing. The issue of books being available in the coming era of eBooks must have a different side.
> 
> For those who, like me, can readily afford the equipment to read the books, there is no real issue - I don't need no stinkin' library loaner from HarperCollins (HarperCollins??? Really??? That's the publisher at issue???).
> 
> ...


We all support libraries through our tax dollars, which support the publishing industry by buying the books. Not sure why people who can afford to buy the books should have to though. My wife takes the kids to the library once a week and checks out bags of books for her and the kids. She also started checking out ebooks for her iPad, in addition to the ones she buys on occasion.

I didn't know libraries were only for people that can't afford to buy the books though, I'll have to tell her. By that logic we should also stop patronizing the local parks since we can afford land and playground equipment and we should stop going to the local arts center since we can afford to buy our own art.

I can't quite afford to construct my own private roads yet so I'm going to have to continue to use the public ones. I guess I'm off the hook there.

I just don't get your logic I guess.


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

Rich or poor - libraries have something to offer. I sometimes buy books. But I use the library for expensive books or subscriptions that I can't afford. For example, I used the library a lot when I am taking a college class. Also, the library has subscriptions to online legal research services that only lawyers subscribe to. Anyway, libraries really are a throwback to a quaint time in our history when folks were less suspicious and more willing to share things like books with one another.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

lee635 said:


> Rich or poor - libraries have something to offer. I sometimes buy books. But I use the library for expensive books or subscriptions that I can't afford. For example, I used the library a lot when I am taking a college class. Also, the library has subscriptions to online legal research services that only lawyers subscribe to. Anyway, libraries really are a throwback to a quaint time in our history when folks were less suspicious and more willing to share things like books with one another.


Or how many times have we bought books only to find we only read them once?

What this will do is no library will purchase any of their ebooks anymore. For a library, replacing worn out books is an expense, but not something with a timebomb. I don't think they even had to replace VHS tapes that often, and it could be argued that those were more vulnerable than a book.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

What I would suspect to happen... is that libraries would counter with a proposal based on the average number of times that a book gets checked-out before it needs replacing due to wear.

For instance... if a popular fiction novel gets checked out 1000 times before it is too worn and needs replacement... then I would expect libraries to counter the proposal setting a limit to 1000 instead of 25.

It should be a negotiating point from 0 and infinity... IF left at infinity, then book publishers are in a scenario where once libraries purchase ebooks, then they no longer would need to repurchase those ever... so I can kind of see why a book publisher would want to test the waters on that.

Hopefully both sides can negotiate to a fair point.

The other alternative... would be to bypass libraries altogether and come up with a way to rent their books for limited time reading (say 1-2 weeks) direct to the public for a small subscription fee.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

It seems like two possibilities are at work here. First, the publishers don't like the eBook phenomenon and are trying to kill it in its crib. The second is that these publishers are so blinded by greed that they really think this is actually a good idea, rather than an "aggressively idiotic" one.

I have been reading eBooks almost exclusively for a decade now. I have read them on my various Palms and now on my Pre. I had been buying all of my books from eReader until they lost the bulk of their catalog to their rivals (I irrationally blame Apple here) and became a depository for cheesy romance novels. Now I'm using Kobo on my Pre. My point here is that we who have embraced the eBooks, even at the same price as their dead tree companions, have done so precisely because they do not age (and are easier to carry around). Now the publishers are imposing expiration dates? How long will it take before they realize that books at home wear out too, and maybe the Kindle, Kobo, etc. should expire my books too?


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

Next, if you loan a book to a friend, you will have to pay a royalty fee. :eek2:


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Like it or not... businesses stay in business by making money.

Historically US made products (remember those Maytag commercials about the lonely repairman who never had anything to do because the product was so reliable??) were made to last...

But people wanted to pay less... so companies opted to worry less about quality and make sure they either had service offerings to make money on OR rely on a business model where people buy new products every year to replace old ones.

Consider the iPhone and iPad... and how many people were lining up to replace their "old" model from last year to get this year's new model. Their old model still works, and still runs pretty much all the same apps... and then look at the book publisher again.

They see people willing to throw away (essentially) a $500 piece of hardware only to re-buy this year's model year after year... but they "only" get to sell their books once as an eBook.

Also look at how there is a wave of people who say they don't want physical movie media, but rather would prefer to pay Netflix $8 per month to stream and never own movies...

I really see book publishers evolving to a Netflix model if eBooks continue to take off... where they stop selling you books outright, but rather sell you a monthly subscription service that allows you to read books each month but never own them.

Personally... I still like real books that I can hold in my hand most of the time.. but it sure seems like to me that consumers and businesses are both trying to evolve towards a lease/rent model.


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

Maybe another option for the libraries would be a subscription model. The library purchases a right to the ebook for a period of time. For example, the license allows the library to loan out the ebook as many times as it wants for one year. After that the library needs to purchase another one year subscription. That's a model that libraries are more familiar with, as it is similar to the model for subscriptions.


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## lordexter (Aug 6, 2007)

I have spent over 25 years in the book business at both the wholesale and retail level. When Harper came out with the 26 loans it was based on a book being lent out 26 times which equates to a full year of lending the book. Most books go out for two weeks. There are very few books that are lent out 26 times that are of any use to a library after all that usuage. Normal usage will have the spine of the book broken and the pages falling out. 

Even when the bindings and covers are protected by library binding, the books cannot take this much usage. So in the case of popular books, they would have to be replaced if they were to be lent out that many times. But most libraries buy more than one copy of popular books and with cross lending between branches it is very unlikely that a book will be lent out 26 times.


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