# It is software...



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

If I'm in the wrong place.... but I put it here for looking at.
Everyone should know by now I'm a "hardware guy", but I've got a software problem.
My current box is developing a pattern... of screwing up on Friday night's Leno.
I record Numbers, Vegas & Law & Order. I'm usually: watching/recording CBS, recording NBC. After Numbers I go into the play list & cycle through the other two. This takes me into the time for Leno. Last night I watched the record light come on @ 11:35 as normal. 
This is a "normal" Friday night, & [normal again] I woke up later & went back to wherever I last remember and replay the show. Last on my "replay list" is Leno. Again last night was the "Un-watchable" Leno. Friday night Leno has failed for the last two weeks. It has failed before too. Fridays seems to be the most frequent [only time? almost].
As for what I did: I tried a couple of times to play "Leno" with no luck. It was after 1:30 so I went into the guide to find something to watch [good luck @ this time of night] and selected IFC [SD]. The channel banner filled half of the screen, with no program. Back into the guide & it moved around & then selected IFC again, same. Hit the "off" button [TV & HR-20]. Powered it back up. Same thing, but now nothing responded. Moved sleeping cat off lap & RBR. Cat wants RBR moved to remote.
I've had a similar issue this week on boot, strange frozen video & unresponsive remote.
Last night looked just like some old Microsoft where once you "jump the track" you chase it down to the inevitable system "lock" requiring a "hard reset".
New box is due Monday afternoon [not that this will fix this].
Friday's recordings aren't much different than Monday's, Tuesday's, or Thursday's, except Leno doesn't record. FWIW


----------



## dallascontractor (Jan 9, 2007)

Try a reboot this has fixed a lot of recorded show that went black and not play


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dallascontractor said:


> Try a reboot this has fixed a lot of recorded show that went black and not play


This is the one where it doesn't record the program. I went into the play list & had 99% free with a 2 hour SD recording & a supposedly 1:30 hour HD [MPEG_4]. Yeah sure I've got 99% free...
RBR cleared the Leno recording, because it wasn't recorded. This is the "failure mode", the Damn thing doesn't record [when it feels like it] though it goes through the motions & lists it in the play list.


----------



## dallascontractor (Jan 9, 2007)

If you do not have many shows do a reformat and see if it clears these issues.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dallascontractor said:


> If you do not have many shows do a reformat and see if it clears these issues.


Been there, done that.
This is a software issue.
I have a new [I mean NEW] box [#4] coming Monday. So I can then watch the same thing with it [since it's software], just like my old box still waiting to be returned.


----------



## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

Could you problem be outside the box. Long cables. Is there anything going on in your neighborhood on fridays which may be causing some interference.

Im not sure what the odds are that 3 boxes would do the same thing on friday night.

Im also a hardware guy. I believe that many problems are hardware related. To many getting the same problems no matter the software version. I think that there are boxes out here that will never work the right way. 

I got 4 BSB when I first got my HR20. I dont have OTA. I put one of those caps that came with the miltiswitch to protect the inputs on the OTA input on the HR20 and have not had a BSB since. Every thing has worked as it should since 10b.


----------



## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

Friday night only and regular sounds like and external interfence of some sort.

Are there events in your neighborhood that use power/rf. 
Does a mircowave go on in that time period etc...

Do you have a UBS on your system?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

All good thoughts but...
I'm so far up in the mountain, in a little valley, that there is no interference & not too many neighbors for that matter.
I also watched the record light come on last night as Leno started, before I fell asleep, so if there would have been some power interruption, I would have had a partial recording at least, and everything was still on when I woke up. The blue ring was still on the dim setting [until the RBR].
Cables are good, dish is alingned is great, I have a multi-switch, but have never seen any time that it doesn't tune to a channel.
Starting to see why I'm saying it's....software.


----------



## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

Just does not seem possible that the same thing happens on 3 different STBs and you being the only one that has reported this problem. Sounds like an external problem.


----------



## Garand762 (Sep 27, 2006)

I had the same issue with NCIS and Vegas back in October, I deleted the series links and then started over setting a new one for each and it took care of the problems. I have not had any further issues like that. 

I don't know if you tried that or not but it worked for me.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lwilli201 said:


> Just does not seem possible that the same thing happens on 3 different STBs and you being the only one that has reported this problem.


I'm not the only one. This is the "un-watchable" bug. The video comes out of the tuner [I've even watched it "live"] but doesn't get recorded. When I go to the play list, the program is there. I select play. The "time line" is correctly displayed, but no video. I can press any FF, RR, ship forward or backward...nothing. I can exit & come back, but the same thing. The box [at these times] still responds to remote commands. If I reset the box, the program disappears from the play list because it [the recording] wasn't really there.
If this wasn't happening since Nov. when I got my first HR-20, I wouldn't really have a problem, since except for a reboot or two, it works. I just can never count on it to record what I want. Well, it's been good since last Friday's Leno, & then it did it again for last night's Leno. It just doesn't like [or think I should watch] Leno. Maybe I should watch Letterman. :lol:


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Garand762 said:


> I had the same issue with NCIS and Vegas back in October, I deleted the series links and then started over setting a new one for each and it took care of the problems. I have not had any further issues like that.
> I don't know if you tried that or not but it worked for me.


Been there, done that... 
I did a reset "everything" not very long ago.

Good thoughts, please keep them coming....there just might be something I haven't tried, or done [yet].


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

You only have the one for recording, but can you go to another receiver during that period to see if the show is viewable during the time box #1 is recording?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> You only have the one for recording, but can you go to another receiver during that period to see if the show is viewable during the time box #1 is recording?


This is how bad it can be: I can have two recording going & using the guide switch between them [live] but still not have one of them record anything.
Last night I had both tuners recording and they worked. Then I was watching the recordings when it came time for Leno to start. I saw the record light come on as it should. Later [after my "nap"] I replayed the recordings I missed & went to watch Leno [my last one] when it was an "un-watchable". Everything looked like it recorded, but it only showed a blank screen with the time line below. Showed in my play list, but didn't take up any space on the drive. RBR cleared it from the play list since it wasn't ever on the drive.
I would say weird, but this is becoming very normal for me & the last two or three boxes.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

And this is on an OTA channel? I don't receive any OTA's so I need to ask, do you also get the choice of a satallite HD option when you get a non-sat HD affiliate?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> And this is on an OTA channel? I don't receive any OTA's so I need to ask, do you also get the choice of a satellite HD option when you get a non-sat HD affiliate?


These were SAT local HD. My OTA is too spotty to count on to record.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I would love to help recreate the scenario, but of all the shows, I couldn't stand to watch any of the shows except Law&Order. 
I do know that I get some pixelation on my recordings that I think line up with times I am pausing, channel changing, or skipping ahead on the other tuner. I can't prove they are 100% related, but I am still not sold on the underlying software developed for this box. I am wondering if we are going to get nothing more than nip and tuck of this base load, or if they are really working on a better solution closer to the H10's base program.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

They're supposed to be bring out a new box this afternoon.
If it shows up, I think I'll try to activate two boxes.
I didn't think I needed two, but since I can't get one to work as it should for a month, I wonder what would happen with two? If they both screwup at the same time then it would have to be something in my system. If they screwup randomly then who knows...


----------



## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> They're supposed to be bring out a new box this afternoon.
> If it shows up, I think I'll try to activate two boxes.
> I didn't think I needed two, but since I can't get one to work as it should for a month, I wonder what would happen with two? If they both screwup at the same time then it would have to be something in my system. If they screwup randomly then who knows...


Just a quick fyi, you are not the only one to have reported friday night leno problems. I have not noticed it myself, but definitely read it in a thread over the weekend. Some guy just mentioning,,,all I want is for it to record Leno on friday nights, etc etc.
Not sure who it was, but fairly sure it wasn't you, or was it? In any event, I think locals+hr20=erratic problems.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> Just a quick fyi, you are not the only one to have reported friday night Leno problems. I have not noticed it myself, but definitely read it in a thread over the weekend. Some guy just mentioning,,,all I want is for it to record Leno on friday nights, etc etc.
> Not sure who it was, but fairly sure it wasn't you, or was it? In any event, I think locals+hr20=erratic problems.


I've been reading the posts & I think it might have been me. The only other posting was someone in my area thinking of changing from E* to D*, but his wife records Leno. I think it was a question between getting MLB or his wife's Leno.
Anyway I'm going to push to have "twin" boxes with the same series links. One will be what I use & the other [backup] will be "just sitting there" recording with little to no remote inputs. What I would use for the "backup" has proven it will "miss" Leno when ever it feels like it [& why it's off line for a month]. I can be testing the new one through all of my "normal" usage & if it fails, I can check the backup.


----------



## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

I sometimes wonder if they are ever going to get this thing right for everyone. Just last friday night I again had the problem where my remote stops working out of the blue. Never happened before 119 I think it was. So, like Windows PC, simply reboot. 

I have two remotes too, one I keep in the kitchen and always both are affected. I seem to be alone in that boat.


----------



## tmmoore (Dec 6, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> I sometimes wonder if they are ever going to get this thing right for everyone. Just last friday night I again had the problem where my remote stops working out of the blue. Never happened before 119 I think it was. So, like Windows PC, simply reboot.
> 
> I have two remotes too, one I keep in the kitchen and always both are affected. I seem to be alone in that boat.


I noticed that the remote stops working, but if I press the TV Power On button, it starts working again. Fixes the problem everytime.

I saw this because I started using the Remote in RF mode from another room. Normally we only use IR mode from none Directv remotes.


----------



## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

tmmoore said:


> I noticed that the remote stops working, but if I press the TV Power On button, it starts working again. Fixes the problem everytime.
> 
> I saw this because I started using the Remote in RF mode from another room. Normally we only use IR mode from none Directv remotes.


Hmm, interesting. I had it first happen in RF, then changed to IR, but that made no difference. So are you saying to move the slider on top to TV and power off the tv only and power back on? Most peculiar fix, but I'm all for it if it works for ya. Or do you leave the slider all the way to the left. I know I tried at least once powering off the hr20 and back on to no avail. Can you elaborate a bit? Thanks.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Just cleared this with retention. They're going to pay for the second [backup] HR-20 for the next two months for my testing.
Who said D* isn't working with us to solve our problems?


----------



## tmmoore (Dec 6, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> Hmm, interesting. I had it first happen in RF, then changed to IR, but that made no difference. So are you saying to move the slider on top to TV and power off the tv only and power back on? Most peculiar fix, but I'm all for it if it works for ya. Or do you leave the slider all the way to the left. I know I tried at least once powering off the hr20 and back on to no avail. Can you elaborate a bit? Thanks.


Program the remote to include a TV.

Leave the slider set to Directv.

At the right top of the remote, just press the TV On button. (Since I have a Sony TV, this sends a power on discrete code for the HR20 and the TV).

From what I have seen, the remote will not work until I press power on. Since pressing the TV On or Off button sends discrete codes pressing them after the fact when the remote goes unresponsive (times out) has no effect on the components and just restores operation.

So, I typically use the HR20 front panel keys to switch to RF mode, go to the remotely located TV, and then if the RF remote is unresponsive I hit the TV power-on button. This works 100% of the time for me.


----------



## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

tmmoore said:


> Program the remote to include a TV.
> 
> Leave the slider set to Directv.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks, I will give it a shot next time. However the button at top right on my remotes turns off/on both the tv and the HR20


----------



## tmmoore (Dec 6, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> Ok thanks, I will give it a shot next time. However the button at top right on my remotes turns off/on both the tv and the HR20


Yes, it does control both TV and HR20 and it also turns on the remote in RF mode from my experience.

My guess is, if your TV does not have a discrete power-on and power-off then the remote sends the power toggle code (press once for on, press a second time for off), so some people may need to press the button twice to keep things in sync.


----------



## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

The erratic operation of one box as compared with another should not surprise anyone. This behavior is what is making it so hard for D* to correct it for everyone--two boxes with (supposedly) identical hardware, software, and even environment and channels, can behave differently. 

If it were easy, they would have it fixed.


----------



## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

tmmoore said:


> Yes, it does control both TV and HR20 and it also turns on the remote in RF mode from my experience.
> 
> My guess is, if your TV does not have a discrete power-on and power-off then the remote sends the power toggle code (press once for on, press a second time for off), so some people may need to press the button twice to keep things in sync.


Well mine does have a discrete power on/off for the tv, but it is not invoked in the way I think you are describing. I uderstood you to say...Leaving the slider to the far left ,("Leave the slider set to Directv. ") and using the power switch in the uppr right corner, ...which is by design, I think supposed to control both units isn't it?It alwasy has for me anyway/

I can control the tv alone by moving the slider to "TV" (far right).

I also note with slider to far right that either power button controls only the tv.

So I suspect one of us isn't understanding the other. But next time it happens I guess I will putts with both these methods.


----------



## tmmoore (Dec 6, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> Well mine does have a discrete power on/off for the tv, but it is not invoked in the way I think you are describing. I uderstood you to say...Leaving the slider to the far left ,("Leave the slider set to Directv. ") and using the power switch in the uppr right corner, ...which is by design, I think supposed to control both units isn't it?It alwasy has for me anyway/
> 
> I can control the tv alone by moving the slider to "TV" (far right).
> 
> ...


 I've probably given too much information. Sorry. Simple answer is that by pressing the Tv Power On button when using the remote in RF mode, seems to also turn the remote back on. Yup, that button controls both the TV and the HR20, but it also seems to bring the remote back to life. When the remote is unresponsive, I can not control the HR20 via RF nor the TV via IR. After I press the *TV Power On *button, everything works. That simple.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Thanks to help from D*, I now have two "twin" HR-20s, mirrored the same. Both are new [with the older one just having been "reset everything"]. One on a UPS & the other not, is the only difference.
I went over all of the cables & found an output cable on the multi-switch could be tightened three full turns, but never got a 771 error nor ever had a signal problem. All transponders in the 90s on both. All tuners pass.
The "old" new one demonstrated the "un-watchable" Leno problem before. 
Both have: 0x120, HDMI connections, same Sony TV. Just the UPS yes/no between them. All Series Links are/will be set the same.
Let the test start....


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Just posted else where about the ups. According to that survey a huge percentage of users don't use a battery backup. I do not have any electronics without it. Just a learned behaivor from living in Flori-duh. 
I believe it is the reason or cause of a large amount of the troubles reported on this site. 
I will be interested how your test works out.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

armophob said:


> Just posted else where about the ups. According to that survey a huge percentage of users don't use a battery backup. I do not have any electronics without it. Just a learned behaivor from living in Flori-duh.
> I believe it is the reason or cause of a large amount of the troubles reported on this site.
> I will be interested how your test works out.


Also being in Florida, I have always used a UPS on my DVRs. It isn't the cause of the problems _I'm_ having with my HR20.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Also being in Florida, I have always used a UPS on my DVRs. It isn't the cause of the problems _I'm_ having with my HR20.


That's kind of why I did the one yes & one no setup. I very much doubt the "Leno" problems have anything to do with AC power.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> That's kind of why I did the one yes & one no setup. I very much doubt the "Leno" problems have anything to do with AC power.


I have not experienced any of the issues on recorded shows that you describe in any of the software versions. I do not seem to record any of the shows you do, which means you most likely don't record mine. Give me a list of test shows that cause you problems, and when they are on. I can set up the master bedroom unit to record them so they don't interfere with my main box. I should know if they recorded ok within the first minute or so without having to watch the show, right?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> I have not experienced any of the issues on recorded shows that you describe in any of the software versions. I do not seem to record any of the shows you do, which means you most likely don't record mine. Give me a list of test shows that cause you problems, and when they are on. I can set up the master bedroom unit to record them so they don't interfere with my main box. I should know if they recorded ok within the first minute or so without having to watch the show, right?


I only seem to have problem with Jay Leno, which is my last "late night" recording. All of my prime time Local HD shows seem to work [with one exception where it could have been "human" error].
I have twin boxes running the same series links to see if one will fail, but this only started yesterday so it may take a few days/week to show up. I wish I hadn't found a loose cable [I think noted here] to bias/negate my previous testing.
My prime time is : Mon, 24. Heroes, CSI Miami, Studio 60; Tues, NCIS, Unit, Boston legal; Wed, CSI NY; Thur, CSI, Earl, Shark; Fri, Numbers, Las Vegas, Law & Order.
I won't say that these are great shows, but these are my SLs with assorted SDs at other times. Leno is setup for every night & seems to have problems on Friday. FWIW


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

So if I set up the second box to record Leno, I should know within the first few seconds of each recording whether or not it recorded? 
Maybe it would be prudent to set up a one week poll on this site on who recorded Leno successfully. I think there will be plenty of volunteers for an experiment like that.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

armophob said:


> So if I set up the second box to record Leno, I should know within the first few seconds of each recording whether or not it recorded?
> Maybe it would be prudent to set up a one week poll on this site on who recorded Leno successfully. I think there will be plenty of volunteers for an experiment like that.


I'm in.  I got a couple boxes I can put to that test.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Ok second HR20 set up for Leno series. Uuuhm, report back here for the results or a poll or another thread? Let me know.


----------



## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> These were SAT local HD. My OTA is too spotty to count on to record.


Okay so MPEG4 right? Have you tried recording the SD version at the same time and see if it records okay? Have you tried setting it up manually? Have you tried padding?
I apologize if these have already been suggested/tried.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

SuperTech1 said:


> Okay so MPEG4 right? Have you tried recording the SD version at the same time and see if it records okay? Have you tried setting it up manually? Have you tried padding?
> I apologize if these have already been suggested/tried.


To all , I'm overwhelmed. Yes it's MPEG-4, no I haven't tried SD, but if we're getting it in HD, why would we want to? I'm using +1 start & +2 end padding. 
And Yes it's a go/no go to see if it records. The "failure mode" is it won't start playing the recording. If you can get 10 sec of it it's a go.
Manual recording doesn't really come into play, as the only time I have this problem is with a series link that works for days and then "dumps" for this "unknown reason.
Other questions?


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Maybe you can enlighten a bit on terms. I always assumed MPEG-4 was an OTA term. What exactly does this apply to?


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> To all , I'm overwhelmed. Yes it's MPEG-4, no I haven't tried SD, but if we're getting it in HD, why would we want to? I'm using +1 start & +2 end padding.
> And Yes it's a go/no go to see if it records. The "failure mode" is it won't start playing the recording. If you can get 10 sec of it it's a go.
> Manual recording doesn't really come into play, as the only time I have this problem is with a series link that works for days and then "dumps" for this "unknown reason.
> Other questions?


I understand your frustration:whatdidid :hair:

But why can't it be partially a hardware problem? 
I've proposed to include the serial # of the box, in problem reporting and it was poopoohed and yet I, and some others who have the same software, haven't had these problems.
Just a thought.


----------



## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

armophob said:


> Maybe you can enlighten a bit on terms. I always assumed MPEG-4 was an OTA term. What exactly does this apply to?


MPEG4 is an encoding technology. Presently local HD channels are the only ones on D* (with a few exceptions ) using MPEG4. Everything else is MPEG2 including OTA. The MPEG4 version takes up less space (more compression?better compression?) allowing D* to get more HD channels in the available bandwidth.


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

SuperTech1 said:


> MPEG4 is an encoding technology. Presently local HD channels are the only ones on D* (with a few exceptions ) using MPEG4. Everything else is MPEG2 including OTA. The MPEG4 version takes up less space (more compression?better compression?) allowing D* to get more HD channels in the available bandwidth.


Is HBOH and the like MPEG2?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> Maybe you can enlighten a bit on terms. I always assumed MPEG-4 was an OTA term. What exactly does this apply to?


OTA & "old" HD along with SD [from D*] uses MPEG-2 encoding. Your local SAT HD channels are MPEG-4 [and maybe a couple of sports channels I don't remember all].
MPEG-4 uses a new algorithm that compresses the signal more [but seems to offer as good a PQ] and is/will be what is used for all new HD programing from D*.
Since it compresses more [and new] there is a question as to bugs with the HR-20 as to if it is related to MPEG-2 or MPEG-4 programs.


----------



## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> Is HBOH and the like MPEG2?


Basically if you can get it on another box besides the HR20 it's MPEG2.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> But why can't it be partially a hardware problem?
> I've proposed to include the serial # of the box, in problem reporting and it was poopoohed and yet I, and some others who have the same software, haven't had these problems.
> Just a thought.


Right now a "hardware" problem would be a defective component, i.e. bad second tuner.
While there will be variations with components, the "design" is to allow for this. The software needs to not only work but to be flexible enough to compensate [allow for] the variations with the components.
While manufacture dates are good to chase down an assemble procedure "error" or failure, it doesn't really effect the "bugs" that have surfaced in the HR-20.
You have a good point & keep helping us with your input, but I hope you can see why some "poopooed" the manufacture date. This would make more sense if there was a change in the build of the boxes, like if a second manufacturer would start building the HR-20.


----------



## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> To all , I'm overwhelmed. Yes it's MPEG-4, no I haven't tried SD, but if we're getting it in HD, why would we want to? I'm using +1 start & +2 end padding.
> And Yes it's a go/no go to see if it records. The "failure mode" is it won't start playing the recording. If you can get 10 sec of it it's a go.
> Manual recording doesn't really come into play, as the only time I have this problem is with a series link that works for days and then "dumps" for this "unknown reason.
> Other questions?


Okay, I'm convinced. Unless it turns out to be your loose cable connection I concur. Software.


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

SuperTech1 said:


> Basically if you can get it on another box besides the HR20 it's MPEG2.


Don't have another box except the H20.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

SuperTech1 said:


> Okay, I'm convinced. Unless it turns out to be your loose cable connection I concur. Software.


I can only keep the testing going to see. It could be the cable & if so it will be fixed. If it turns out to be the cable then there will be an awful lot of cable tightening needed for a lot of users. Which isn't that imposable of a "root cause".
Before anything is known, 30+ days would have to pass without problems first. If it fails before, it's back to software, which the "odds are" anyway.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> Don't have another box except the H20.


The H-20 & HR-20 are both MPEG-4 capable, but anything older isn't so wouldn't receive an MPEG-4 channel.


----------



## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> The H-20 & HR-20 are both MPEG-4 capable, but anything older isn't so wouldn't receive an MPEG-4 channel.


Oops. Forgot about the H20. I wonder how long before MPEG2 is a thing of the past?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

SuperTech1 said:


> Oops. Forgot about the H20. I wonder how long before MPEG2 is a thing of the past?


I think they will have to fix the H/HR-20 first, if this gives you any idea! :lol:


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

SuperTech1 said:


> Oops. Forgot about the H20. I wonder how long before MPEG2 is a thing of the past?


Probably quite a long while. There are a TON of old receivers out there, with people happily using them to receive SD programming only, many if not most from the 101 sat only. Especially when the MPEG2 HD channels move to MPEG4, there will be plenty of space for MPEG2 SD for years to come.

MPEG2 HD will most likely be gone within the next 2-3 years, but MPEG2 SD will live on much longer I would expect.


----------



## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

First of all, of course it's software. This is not how hardware fails, IMO.

For your mental database, the following is a description of my Unwatchable:

I tend to find myself deep into the live buffer. With an 18 month old in the house, I am always behind live. I am paused for long periods of time, will then FF thru 1/2hr, lots of jumpback, etc... Now that I have a 90 minute buffer, instead of a puny little 30 minute buffer [ok- so there were two of them  ], I abuse the poor lonely single buffer even more.

In shorthand, heavy trickplay, full buffer on SD local channel. Scheduled HD recording on a local OTA appears to begin as it should on other tuner, which is to say, the recording light comes on, and the program is on the list.

So, sometime after the program has been recording, but still is in progress, I am ready to start it.

LIST>PLAY an HD-program recorded OTA, recording is still in progress.
Black screen when attempt to play. Transport controls respond on screen, but continued black screen and ticker/time does not move. Menus responsive.

Other tuner: still buffering SD local over satellite for 90 minutes +

Since this program was still in progress, I exited the program which put me back on the live buffer. I then changed the channel to the (still "recording") live feed of the 'Unwatchable' program. Program appeared to be playing fine, but non- responsive to any transport control (rew, ff, jumpback, pause). Multiple channel changes away from, and back to the "live" recording channel yeilded no change in behavior (I did this to cycle thru different format 480i, 720p, etc...). I let the program complete recording, and attempted to play again from list, still black screen with "responsive" but non-functional transport controls. Trick play on "live" OTA channel returned to normal once recording ended.

This is my Unwatchable. This is software.

Unless, of course, it has something to do with the Moon.
veryoldschool!! Have you tried correlating your failures with the phases of the moon? Reflected solar radiation?? Nevermind....


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> First of all, of course it's software. This is not how hardware fails, IMO. For your mental database, the following is a description of my Unwatchable:
> I tend to find myself deep into the live buffer. With an 18 month old in the house, I am always behind live. I am paused for long periods of time, will then FF thru 1/2hr, lots of jumpback, etc... Now that I have a 90 minute buffer, instead of a puny little 30 minute buffer [ok- so there were two of them  ], I abuse the poor lonely single buffer even more.
> In shorthand, heavy trickplay, full buffer on SD local channel. Scheduled HD recording on a local OTA appears to begin as it should on other tuner, which is to say, the recording light comes on, and the program is on the list.
> So, sometime after the program has been recording, but still is in progress, I am ready to start it.
> ...


Yes, I'm looking into Sun Spots right now...
I don't think I beat up the "live buffer" as much as you, but short of that, it's the same "issue". While this [that you described with live buffer] has really only happened to the "refurb" box I just took off line. The late night "Leno" unwatchables preceded with other boxes and has continued with the refurb. I think the count now is three. One of theses is in the test setup along with a new "out of the box" unit to make up the "twins".
If any new release come our way it will go into the "new" and I'll keep the "old" new as is since it has failed before, and this would prove/eliminate the loose cable as the cause [and doesn't get any trick play testing].


----------



## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

I am having an Unwatchable RIGHT NOW.

Active tuner had been on ABC-OTA since ~6:30pm MST.
Lost scheduled at 8pm and at 9pm. 
American Idol scheduled at 8pm.

Started watching pre-recorded (Tues) American Idol (OTA)at ~8:00pm. Deleted when finished.

Started watching tonight's American Idol (OTA) at ~8:35pm. Both AI's were fine, save a few audio drops.

Returned to list and and deleted tonight's AI. That put me back on the live buffer which was ABC-OTA recording the 9pm Lost. All of the sudden, no response to trick play. Went into list and tried to play 8pm Lost, and it seemed fine. Tried to play 9pm Lost, and it showed negative time, BUT, no black screen, the video WAS on the disk. But, no trickplay control. Exited and was back on live Lost, with no trickplay. Hmmm...

I changed the channel (so now Lost is "recording" and the buffer is on a local SD.) I went back into the list, and tried to play the early (8p) Lost, and now IT has a blackscreen/negative time. I KNOW it is actually on the disk, because I SAW it only a few minutes earlier. The 9p Lost now shows a blackscreen as well.

I am going to let it finish in hopes of recovering the recordings (the wife will NOT be happy). Fortunately it's backed up on the SD Tivo in the other room (so she *may* still feed me). 

Will report back.

EDIT: Last RBR was Saturday evening before the Super Bowl. THAT recorded fine.


----------



## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

cygnusloop said:


> Will report back.


After recording completed -- no change.

RBR and, alas, they are gone.:nono:

sigh...


----------



## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> My current box is developing a pattern... of screwing up on Friday night's Leno.
> I record Numbers, Vegas & Law & Order. I'm usually: watching/recording CBS, recording NBC. After Numbers I go into the play list & cycle through the other two. This takes me into the time for Leno. Last night I watched the record light come on @ 11:35 as normal.
> This is a "normal" Friday night, & [normal again] I woke up later & went back to wherever I last remember and replay the show. Last on my "replay list" is Leno. Again last night was the "Un-watchable" Leno. Friday night Leno has failed for the last two weeks. It has failed before too. Fridays seems to be the most frequent [only time? almost].


The following is only my opinion, I expect others have had different experiences, but...

*IF* this is a software problem (which I think it is), and all _reasonable _external causes have been investigated, and ruled out (which I think they have), what are we left with?

1) Random HW/SW failures. I don't buy it. Failures are only random until you understand the underlying cause(s). Once understood, they are not random at all. (I realize that is a circular argument, but the point is, I don't believe the DVR just randomly decides not to record, i.e. _something_ happens that causes it)

2) Usage pattern. If this is a software failure, some set of conditions is causing it to flake out. This is what I think is causing my Unwatchables, and IMHO it is what is causing veryoldschool's Unwatchables.

My developing theory starts with this...

All of my Unwatchables (at least starting with x11b/x120) have this in common:

The scheduled recording that is Unwatchable starts on THE SAME CHANNEL that the live buffer has been buffering. Let me state it again, so that I am crystal clear.
All of my Unwatchable recordings were scheduled on a channel that the live buffer was already on. It seems to me that the buffer was typically full at the time, but about that I can't be absolutely certain, and my buffer is very often full.

There is no correlation for me as far the type of program that is supposed to record, except that it is HD. It has happened to me with OTA, and MPEG2. I don't yet have MPEG-4, as I am still waiting for a D* sub-contractor to install the 5LNB.

veryoldschool - If I read your OP right, this is also the case with your Leno Unwatchable. As in, on NBC, you record Vegas, then L&O, then it is buffering through the local news etc..., then Leno is an Unwatchable.

It seems to me that something is happening when the box tries to "switch" from buffering to recording. It _feels_ like some kind of file pointer error. I don't know precisely how the logic in the box works, but it seems reasonable to suppose the following: When it is buffering, and then is instructed to actually record, an entry in the playlist is created and given a pointer to the address on the disk where the program is located. (Does it _record_ to a different part of the disk than on which it was _buffering_? Or does it just pass the playlist item a pointer to the address where it was already buffering?) Either way, it seems like the playlist was passed a bogus pointer to a gibberish address on the disk. When the playlist entry is selected to play, the address makes no sense, and we have an Unwatchable. That would make things like the negative time make more sense, there is just no data at the given address. I would expect all kinds of weird behavior. Also, I am not convinced that the data is not being written to the disk. The playlist item just doesn't know where to look. Or, it is possible that it is trying to write the program to a gibberish/nonexistent address, in which case it wouldn't be written to the disk. Again, this REALLY feels like file pointers.

So, how does a scheduled recording differ from, say, just starting a recording with the "R" button while watching a buffered channel? I don't know, but a clue could be in there somewhere. I have never heard of an Unwatchable that resulted from manually starting a recording.

I certainly don't know if this is the ONLY cause of Unwatchables, but it sure seems like it is A cause of SOME (at least my) Unwatchables.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

cygnusloop said:


> The following is only my opinion, I expect others have had different experiences, but...
> 
> *IF* this is a software problem (which I think it is), and all _reasonable _external causes have been investigated, and ruled out (which I think they have), what are we left with?
> 
> ...


Cygnusloop,

Well done. How does one excerpt a well written piece such as yours?

I would like to suggest the software, which is the least variable of the variables, must handle all the normal of the other variables in a setup:
Usage (as you eloquently point out)
Installation (including cabling, connectors, air temp, moisture in the connectors, etc.)
Power
Programming (including subscribed and which locals are available...)
Hardware

(Btw, anyone is welcome to breakdown these variables in different ways as they see fit. There are many ways to slice this pie, go for it.)

So the software has to be robust and fault tolerant.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

You make some good points. I could counter a few, but then I could also explain the "counter" with your points too. Yes I work with circle logic too. In the real world I think they call it chasing your tail [until you find it].
One thing: I've "dumped" live buffer into record [watching the show & pressed R], & had it unwatchable. I knew this would happen as I couldn't pause "live TV". After the show was over the box worked fine without a RBR. This was the first defect with box #3 due to go back [a refurb].
Look back at the other thread about the "blank screen" with a SAT feed pulled [& no error 771].
I don't have the answer so I'm not limiting any thoughts on how/why...


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> You make some good points. I could counter a few, but then I could also explain the "counter" with your points too. Yes I work with circle logic too. In the real world I think they call it chasing your tail [until you find it].
> One thing: I've "dumped" live buffer into record [watching the show & pressed R], & had it unwatchable. I knew this would happen as I couldn't pause "live TV". After the show was over the box worked fine without a RBR. This was the first defect with box #3 due to go back [a refurb].
> Look back at the other thread about the "blank screen" with a SAT feed pulled [& no error 771].
> I don't have the answer so I'm not limiting any thoughts on how/why...


My take, once the box develops certain errors, the errors can cascade to the rest of the recording functionality until the next RBR.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Has the question been asked of the op already about native on or off during these events?
I only ask because the only time I get these results in any circumstances, is when one piece of equipment is set differently than the other as far as video format.

Veryoldschool; Have you tried this problem in both on and off mode? Maybe with the variables in place, left on its own, the HR software cannot keep up.


----------



## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

tibber said:


> My take, once the box develops certain errors, the errors can cascade to the rest of the recording functionality until the next RBR.


Agreed. Once something went wacky - and manifested itself as something like "couldn't pause" - then the pointers (or whatever) are already screwy.

That was the first thing I noticed last night when Lost was Unwatchable, I couldn't pause live. Went to the list and sure enough...Unwatchable.


----------



## Italfra1 (Dec 22, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Been there, done that.
> This is a software issue.
> I have a new [I mean NEW] box [#4] coming Monday. So I can then watch the same thing with it [since it's software], just like my old box still waiting to be returned.


I know this may seem crazy and I was 100% convinced it was all software problems and having them send me out a new box would be useless but when my third box arrived I was absoluetly amazed to find out I have none of the old issues. Just like that they were gone. My biggest problems with the first two boxes was picture lockup. The picture on the screen would keep playing as if nothing was wrong but DVR wouldn't accept any commands from the remote. I spend more hours on the phone with techs and was so frustrated it wasn't even funny. I worked the hell out D* for every credit you can imagine.

My third box seems to be the charm. That blew me away even more because now I was baffled that they could have such an inconsistant product. Look at all these people dealing with this nightmare. It's not fair but my suggestion is to keep having them send you boxes until you get one that works. It worked for me. **** luck


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Italfra1 said:


> I know this may seem crazy and I was 100% convinced it was all software problems and having them send me out a new box would be useless but when my third box arrived I was absoluetly amazed to find out I have none of the old issues. Just like that they were gone. My biggest problems with the first two boxes was picture lockup. The picture on the screen would keep playing as if nothing was wrong but DVR wouldn't accept any commands from the remote. I spend more hours on the phone with techs and was so frustrated it wasn't even funny. I worked the hell out D* for every credit you can imagine.
> 
> My third box seems to be the charm. That blew me away even more because now I was baffled that they could have such an inconsistant product. Look at all these people dealing with this nightmare. It's not fair but my suggestion is to keep having them send you boxes until you get one that works. It worked for me. **** luck


 If your question is "are there bad boxes?", you betcha. And there are problems caused by "bad hardware." But the bulk of the problems are not from bad hardware, but rather software that can't handle normal variations of the hardware (and other variables.)

I'm guessing your third box has a set of normal variations that is "happy" (like that highly technical term?) with your other variables and usage.

Remember, every box has resisters, capacitors, and other components that have a tolerance of 10%. Good hardware and software design account for those differences.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

tibber said:


> So the software has to be robust and fault tolerant.


I couldn't have said it better myself.
Fix that, and the HR20 is a best-in-class box, worthy of "flagship" status.

OK, DLB's would be nice too.
-Rob


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

tibber said:


> My take, once the box develops certain errors, the errors can cascade to the rest of the recording functionality until the next RBR.


This fits with my experiences.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> This fits with my experiences.


My take, once the box develops certain errors, the errors can cascade to the rest of the recording functionality until the next RBR.

But not always, as "this" from my posting didn't have a problem after the show stopped recording [bad] but remote worked, box worked fine for some time. I don't remember the next reboot but I think is was for a RC/CE DL.
Yes, I will agree... once "it jumps the track" it normally takes a RBR to get it back "on track".


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> My take, once the box develops certain errors, the errors can cascade to the rest of the recording functionality until the next RBR.
> 
> But not always, as "this" from my posting didn't have a problem after the show stopped recording [bad] but remote worked, box worked fine for some time. I don't remember the next reboot but I think is was for a RC/CE DL.
> Yes, I will agree... once "it jumps the track" it normally takes a RBR to get it back "on track".


in case you missed the question. During all your experimentation have you been testing native on or off also?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> in case you missed the question. During all your experimentation have you been testing native on or off also?


This has been with native ON.
0128 seems to have a defect with blank screens that are not with 0120.
I'm going to repeat/further test this with the new CE to see if they made any changes, but so far this doesn't effect my unwatchable Leno's as they have been with 0120 & earlier.
You have steered me into something I wouldn't have found, but will do my best to "check it out". Where's my drink... :lol:


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I can only keep the testing going to see. It could be the cable & if so it will be fixed. If it turns out to be the cable then there will be an awful lot of cable tightening needed for a lot of users. Which isn't that imposable of a "root cause".
> Before anything is known, 30+ days would have to pass without problems first. If it fails before, it's back to software, which the "odds are" anyway.


One more tid bit of info I have discovered. This may seem like common sense to a guru like you, but it was just interesting to me. I noticed that when I went to record a conflicting 3rd recording, it displays the 2 current recordings and the sat # they are recording on. This is assigned by the prioritizer. If I move one of these shows above the other on the prioritizer it changes the recording sat.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> One more tid bit of info I have discovered. This may seem like common sense to a guru like you, but it was just interesting to me. I noticed that when I went to record a conflicting 3rd recording, it displays the 2 current recordings and the sat # they are recording on. This is assigned by the prioritizer. If I move one of these shows above the other on the prioritizer it changes the recording sat.


Hummm....
I hope you've read the "unwatchable recordings on command" that you helped with.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Hummm....
> I hope you've read the "unwatchable recordings on command" that you helped with.


I just reread through that whole thread. What did I miss? I could not find this fact mentioned.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> I just reread through that whole thread. What did I miss? I could not find this fact mentioned.


This thread was to describe to source of my problems with the "missed" recordings, or "unwatchable". It is the software, but could also be a combination of what happens when there is a bad connection [I had a cable that was a full three turns from "snug"]. Without your help, I would still think each tuner had their own SAT input. We now know this isn't so & along the way have been able to setup an unwatchable recording "on command" allowing [hopefully] the engineers at D* to correct their software.
Your "input" about the prioritizer is more that I can add to the test cycle.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

ok, I was focusing or more to the point obsessing on one point not the big picture.
Then let me be the one to yell Uncle.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> ok, I was focusing or more to the point obsessing on one point not the big picture.
> Then let me be the one to yell Uncle.


You can yell uncle, aunt, or what ever you want, BUT your postings have been quite helpful for me to focus on "the unwatchable recordings". Without your Sonora data, I wouldn't have gotten here.
Now if this can be of any help for you: If you have missed or the unwatchable recordings, I would take a 7/16 wrench and make sure all of your connections are "snug". 
I don't "do software" but have a good handle on most everything else & can say with some confidence that one connector that isn't snug in your system "could" cause intermittent "blank recordings" because of no signal, that the HR-20 doesn't display with a 771 error and at the same time passes all transponder power tests. FWIW 
Thanks too...


----------



## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

I had an issue tonight that *could* be related to the Unwatchable, I'll call it for now, the _Almost _Unwatchable.

There have been lots of reports of strange goings on with the "Timing", negative time and such.

This is the first time this has happened to me, the material was recorded under x128, and played back under x12a.

Recorded Earl and Office Thursday night OTA. Select Earl tonight from list to play. It played fine, except, that although the ticker is at 0:00, and the time bar looks normal, I am actually 6 minutes into the show. I know this because I have to RW to minus 6 minutes to get to the beginning of the show. (Displays as 0:-6 on the time bar). The time bar is otherwise normal, scaled from 0:00 to 0:30. When the ticker gets to (30-6)=24 minutes, I get Keep or Delete. It was, however, watchable.

I guess I'm arguing that this is connected to the Unwatchable in the sense that you see a lot of weird timing manifestations with the Unwatchable, as well. *Maybe* sometimes the timing gets so out of whack (past some threshold?) that the recording is Unwatchable.

This one was only _almost _unwatchable.
I would bet coffee and donuts, that when you fix the Unwatchable, you fix this too. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> I had an issue tonight that *could* be related to the Unwatchable, I'll call it for now, the _Almost _Unwatchable.
> There have been lots of reports of strange goings on with the "Timing", negative time and such.
> This is the first time this has happened to me, the material was recorded under x128, and played back under x12a.
> Recorded Earl and Office Thursday night OTA. Select Earl tonight from list to play. It played fine, except, that although the ticker is at 0:00, and the time bar looks normal, I am actually 6 minutes into the show. I know this because I have to RW to minus 6 minutes to get to the beginning of the show. (Displays as 0:-6 on the time bar). The time bar is otherwise normal, scaled from 0:00 to 0:30. When the ticker gets to (30-6)=24 minutes, I get Keep or Delete. It was, however, watchable.
> ...


My "gut" says a RBR is due. When I've seen this, or something like it, it isn't long before it "locks up".
Bad code--yes, not quite my "unwatchable" as the box still works [for a long time].
I've been focusing on where I can't view a recording, but everything else is "normal". If I do a RBR, the only change is the "unwatchable" is gone from the play list.
Many many bugs to find and quash.
Yours would definitely fall under Tom's wish for better [robust] code.


----------



## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> My "gut" says a RBR is due. When I've seen this, or something like it, it isn't long before it "locks up".
> Bad code--yes, not quite my "unwatchable" as the box still works [for a long time].
> I've been focusing on where I can't view a recording, but everything else is "normal". If I do a RBR, the only change is the "unwatchable" is gone from the play list.
> Many many bugs to find and quash.
> Yours would definitely fall under Tom's wish for better [robust] code.


In this case, an RBR was done less than 24hrs previously (for x128).
These almost unwatchables remained in the list after an RBR. Typically, my unwatchables behave just like yours. Once the unwatchable finishes recording the system seems otherwise fine, and the unwatchable disappears from the list upon a reset of any type. I *think* these almost unwatchables are a similar but different manifestation of the same weakness in the code. I am hoping to someone, somewhere it could be a clue as to what is happening "under the hood".

I still think my "regular" unwatchables are precisely the same as yours. My point in the previous post was that when you find the place in the code to fix the screwy timing thing, you have also found the code to fix the unwatchable, or nearly so. The fact that the unwatchable can now be reproduced, will allow the D* engineers to observe how the software fails. I believe this will, in time, allow them to fix it. It is always a necessary first step.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I read a post yesterday from a moderator that sounded very familiar except for one thing. The unwatchable "aspect" was the display video & not the recorded video. In his case, he had no video for days being displayed on the TV, but was recording programs fine. This very much sounds like "my problem" but moved farther [down?] through the video chain. What I see with video not going to the disk, can move to video not coming from the "live feed" output.
I don't know but "could this be" the broadcom chip(s) [if I'm even close]? 
I've been focusing on missed recordings. See "unwatchable recordings on command": http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79290 
This is done with a "hardware defect" which, in my case, could be from: loose cables, the Zinwell WB68 multi-switch, or an AT9 dish. Now this will "trigger" the problem [& of course needs to be repaired] but the REAL problem comes back to "the software". If a problem is encountered, there needs to be an error message or prompt for it.
I was watching a recording of SNL last night while it was recording, about 10 min behind "live". All of a sudden the picture froze. After the usual "Oh S...", I tried pause, play, etc. No help. It wasn't "locked up" as my buttons worked.
Now I have some time working with Microsoft Media Center Edition 2005 [MCE] & using it as a HD DVR. [Something also not ready for "prime time".] I had just had a heavy rain burst come through, so I tried the 30 sec skip. One or two later the recording was working. Now if this had happened with MCE, I would have had a blue screen telling me the signal was lost & to press 30 sec jump. If several jumps don't work the blues screen tells me it's lost & that's it for my recording.
This brings us back to "the software". The HR-20 needs to prompt [us] more to problems [even with just an error code]. Sure if there were no errors the software might not need these, but this isn't very realistic as there will always be external conditions that will need to be "flagged" for: the user or a CRS to address.
So it's back to "the software". It needs to be debugged in less than "optimal" conditions and have errors prompted [correctly].
While rain fade may not be a "common" problem, it is a "normal" problem that a recording needs to display [since when you watch the recording, you might have no idea that it had happened].
I would like to see "new features" held off until the current functions can consistently work or point, with error codes, to where or what needs attention. Microsoft does it [not well but it does it]. Leaving us to figure it out blindly isn't what the HR-20 & D* should be doings. If there were errors codes [messages] the CSR could follow [work a customer through] a "tree" to effectively find the cause of the problem.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Very Old School - It's not software...it's firmware.  :hurah: 

Now that we have that all squared away.... :lol: :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

VOS, what kind of signal strengths be you gettin' during the rainstorm? I'm wondering if, aside from untightened cables, if you also have unaligned dish.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

tibber said:


> VOS, what kind of signal strengths be you getting' during the rainstorm? I'm wondering if, aside from untightened cables, if you also have unaligned dish.
> Cheers,
> Tom


Being on the western slope of the Sierra Nevada mountains, we something called "gully washers", where it sheets down. Just after my "freeze", I went into the transponders to see what "normal" rain would cause. They were all [for the most part] 90-100%. My dish is so "spot on" that I got a PM from someone [at D* I'm sure] asking me where I was because I'd posted my transponder power reading from 99 & 103 & "they" told me what were on the transponders I listed. I haven't found this info anywhere before except from engineers [Sony the last time].
Now this "gully washer" came all of a sudden. It lasted 5-10 min. there was no sign of pixilation, just bang no signal. The recording was only "out" for maybe a min [hard to say as it was out, but it took just a few 30 sec skips to get through & came back with some pixilation].
Now I KNOW there are no loose cables anymore. This dish is in the weather, but not the multi-switch & only the connectors at the dish are. FWIW


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Hokay, I'm familiar with gully washers. There's a war going on between nature and man. Man thinks he's got rainfade licked, but nature always manages to top it. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

tibber said:


> Hokay, I'm familiar with gully washers. There's a war going on between nature and man. Man thinks he's got rainfade licked, but nature always manages to top it.
> Cheers,
> Tom


That big a.. reflector does a great job to minimize it though.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> That big a.. reflector does a great job to minimize it though.


big? If you want big, I'll go back to Indiana and get the BIG UGLY I used to get NFL ST before directv finally picked it up. And that was a small one as I was far enough south I didn't need the 12' ones used up nort... 

I'm just really glad I don't have to fight for which bird the dish points to anymore.  But I do miss the free wildfeeds.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

tibber said:


> big? If you want big, I'll go back to Indiana and get the BIG UGLY I used to get NFL ST before directv finally picked it up. And that was a small one as I was far enough south I didn't need the 12' ones used up nort...
> I'm just really glad I don't have to fight for which bird the dish points to anymore.  But I do miss the free wildfeeds.
> Cheers,
> Tom


1) Are there any wild feeds anymore?
2) The gully washer is coming your way!


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> 1) Are there any wild feeds anymore?
> 2) The gully washer is coming your way!


Last time I looked, there were still wildfeed listings. They might be encoded, but new receivers handle that without a problem.

Got some rain, but no problems--yet. 

cheers,
Tom


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Very Old School - It's not software...it's firmware.  :hurah:
> 
> Now that we have that all squared away.... :lol: :lol:


I stand corrected.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I don't know. To me firmware is something that almost never changes and is less then 1mb in size. (and how times have changed, I used to say under 2k. Now the disk controllers have more firmware than that.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Monday bump for DirecTV to read post #82


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

First defect from the twins: #2 was used in Saturdays testing for unwatchable recordings. 012a was pushed to it Fri.
It has been off [standby] since Sat. Powered it up today to see if it had recorded the shows that #1 had.
Black screen. 
#1 would have been: "live" tuner to CBS HD local & the last recording being Leno.
It had no guide banner, so I don't know what channel it "thought" it was on. Tuned to CBS & got the video. I [was happy and then] pressed previous channel to see what it had been tuned to. Previous didn't work. I don't think it was tuned to a channel.
Checked out the recordings: every recording starting with SNL through Jay Leno, recorded & was watchable.
No lockup, but the "live" buffer "wasn't" as the live video had taken a dump. Much like the "moving target" post & the moderator's box. I just didn't need to RBR.
FWIW: I hope the DirecTV engineers can make some sense out of this.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> First defect from the twins: #2 was used in Saturdays testing for unwatchable recordings. 012a was pushed to it Fri.
> It has been off [standby] since Sat. Powered it up today to see if it had recorded the shows that #1 had.
> 
> Ok, now the hundred dollar question. You spoke recently of inclement weather. Which of the twins had battery back up?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> Ok, now the hundred dollar question. You spoke recently of inclement weather. Which of the twins had battery back up?


Number Two. Or this one with the first defect.
Though I haven't lost power [yet].


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Number Two. Or this one with the first defect.
> Though I haven't lost power [yet].


So even if you had a dip in power the defect unit was backed up. All of my beliefs are now in question.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> So even if you had a dip in power the defect unit was backed up. All of my beliefs are now in question.


To further put things in doubt: #1 was reset for CE releases & #2 wasn't so:
Resets- Monday both, Tuesday both [the D* monthly], Wed. #1 only [CE], Thurs. #1 only [CE], Fri. #2 only [national push of 012a], Last reset.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> To further put things in doubt: #1 was reset for CE releases & #2 wasn't so:
> Resets- Monday both, Tuesday both [the D* monthly], Wed. #1 only [CE], Thurs. #1 only [CE], Fri. #2 only [national push of 012a], Last reset.


Now can you swap both sat feeds to each easily and reset the test.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> Now can you swap both sat feeds to each easily and reset the test.


Yes I can [could] but for the moment won't, to see when a major defect comes as this hasn't required a RBR.
I will keep it "on my list" for the next RBR though, or if this "defect" returns again to #2.
I'm feeding out of a WB68 switch that I know has new, good, snug, cables to both units. FWIW


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Yes, and with the WB68 in line at will not prove much anyhow. Removing it first would be the best option. Of course I am preaching to the choir.


----------



## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm not the only one. This is the "un-watchable" bug. The video comes out of the tuner [I've even watched it "live"] but doesn't get recorded. When I go to the play list, the program is there. I select play. The "time line" is correctly displayed, but no video. I can press any FF, RR, ship forward or backward...nothing. I can exit & come back, but the same thing. The box [at these times] still responds to remote commands. If I reset the box, the program disappears from the play list because it [the recording] wasn't really there.
> If this wasn't happening since Nov. when I got my first HR-20, I wouldn't really have a problem, since except for a reboot or two, it works. I just can never count on it to record what I want. Well, it's been good since last Friday's Leno, & then it did it again for last night's Leno. It just doesn't like [or think I should watch] Leno. Maybe I should watch Letterman. :lol:


Are you sure both of your tuners are working???


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

gcisko said:


> Are you sure both of your tuners are working???


I have "twin" HR-20s with all tuners working. Good signals strength, all transponders, both pass all tests but network as they aren't connected to it.
As to "working tuners": there is a software defect that still hasn't been resolved. I think it has to do with the broadcom chips [I don't know, but hope this is the central video point] where "input & output" can have a common "derailment" in the process.
See "unwatchable recordings on command" for more information on some testing & my "twin" setup for testing. 
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79290
I welcome any & all input or thoughts to help resolve the problems with this DVR.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Today lineup: Dan Rather, NCIS, The Unit, Boston Legal, Leno.
Unit #1 is brand new installed last Monday [8 days ago].
It has been working fine until Boston Legal with it's first "unwatchable".
Unit #2 recorded everything today [and for the last 8 days].
Free space on: #1=95%, #2=93%
On #2 Boston Legal the video started out with a glitch where the bottom half of the picture was garbage, sound was OK & this cleared up within a few seconds. I've seen the same garbage & length before. Each hour of 24 had one in it close to the beginning [maybe 5-10 min in]. I notice this [and note it here] but discount it as local station problems. [two different channels] maybe it's the local D* office, but wouldn't explain why one box recorded & the other didn't.
This problem has been going on since the first HR-20 was installed back in Nov. This is four or five units over three plus months.
For the time being the only "solution" is to have "twins" recording so one will record what I want when the other screws up.
Yes, it's software and when are they going to get it fixed?
This isn't a rant but [I hope] helpful documentation for *the engineers at DirecTV to read and focus on what their problem is.*
I would very much like to be part of the "I have no problems group", which I can't for the life of me seem to be able to join.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

So I thought I would call D*. I got a very charming CSR [@ 1:00 AM here] from Utah, who explained that most of D* was closed. She mentioned that they had a lot of calls about Boston Legal & ended up transferring me to the protection department. This time I was talking to Oregon & another very charming CSR.
I explained what, & how long. The last thing on her list was a reformat & I explained the disk showed 95% free space & the one that recorded showed 93% free, so we agreed that it wasn't a reformat issue & that it was the last thing on her list to try.
I asked if my Zinwell WB68 & the dish could have anything to do with this 3+ months problem. No they weren't the problem [I agreed but would try almost anything].
She logged everything on my account and says somebody will call me within 24 to 48 hours.
We will see...


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I thought I would tie in this thread also: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=784534#post784534
As for D* calling me back within 24 to 48 hours...still waiting....


----------



## thekochs (Oct 7, 2006)

Haven't read the whole thread....have you tried to force the recording to be done on the 2nd tuner ? I guess perhaps setup a second record on 1st tuner or unplug one of the inputs. I'm reaching but maybe something on the tuner and the software...some combination that perhaps forcing another hardware path could ID or isolate.

Just a thought.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

thekochs said:


> Haven't read the whole thread....have you tried to force the recording to be done on the 2nd tuner ? I guess perhaps setup a second record on 1st tuner or unplug one of the inputs. I'm reaching but maybe something on the tuner.
> Just a thought.


See "unwatchable recordings on command": http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79290


----------



## thekochs (Oct 7, 2006)

Hmmmm......so it sounds to me that D* is playing games in the firmware to reduce the 771 Sat Errors but has induced blank recordings. As you and others explained since two tuner systems jump around from Sat1, Sat2, OTA it sounds like the software has gone from falsely notifying of 771 errors when in fact channel is good to the other end of the bell curve of inducing a blank screen when signal is actually good. I'm guessing if this assumption holds any water they are blanking the screen...not the feed...and this is why the info/prog shows but the actual video does not on playback.

Thoughts ?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

thekochs said:


> Hmmmm......so it sounds to me that D* is playing games in the firmware to reduce the 771 Sat Errors but has induced blank recordings. As you and others explained since two tuner systems jump around from Sat1, Sat2, OTA it sounds like the software has gone from falsly notifying of 771 errors when in fact channel is good to the other end of the bell curve of inducing a blank screen when signal is actually good.
> Thoughts ?


Not thoughts but squirrels...
They seem to be switching the video a lot between/from tuners, the disk, & the display. What ever is accomplishing this isn't 100%. I wish I could be in their "lab" with a probe so I could.....
The best I can do is post & post & .....


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Here I would have thought with two receivers I would have had twice the problems, but it hasn't turned out that way.
#1 [new out of the box] has missed one recording, had a few lockups, but these have been all with CEs.
#2 [old & defective, but "reset everything"] hasn't missed one recording, which was it's "defect". It's only been running the national releases, & is the one on a UPS.
What it does do [or doesn't work right] is coming out of standby, it has lost the live buffer. It either has a blank screen [local MPEG-4] or shows a poor still image [SD channel]. Since this is the backup, it spends most of it's time in standby. Changing channels after power up brings everything back to normal. No lockups or resets needed. This seems to be happening for a while. I thought 0134 would change this, but it hasn't. It records what it should, plays the recordings, but just seems to have a "live buffer" issue.
1# doesn't have the live buffer issue, which can be a nice thing when you turn it on & find the end of what looks like a good show. A quick rewind [or what ever you call it without tape] and I get to watch the complete show. Neat. If they ever give us DLB I hope life buffer will still be an hour. I would suck to miss the first part of the show I didn't know I wanted to watch.
Just an FYI almost a month later.


----------

