# H24 and HR24 operating temp



## Dwight M (Jul 22, 2010)

Does the H24 & HR24 receivers operate cooler than the HR21-700. I have a PS3, Sony surround sound receiver, Sony 55 LCD TV and a HR21-700. It is like having a heater on in my living room. I need the a/c on all the time even when it is cool outside. I had to put an external cooling fan on the surround sound receiver because it would get to hot and go into Protect Mode. 
I am looking for ways to lower the temps and if the H24s were operating cooler I would consider purchasing one.
Thanks for any comments


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## marquitos2 (Jan 10, 2004)

It runs cooler than older versions of DVR. You can buy an small fan at Wally with a clip on. Thats what I used for my set up, keeping everything kool.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

The H24 and HR24 operate at lower temps than comparible previous generation units.

Neither of those models require an external cooling fan here.


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## skatingrocker17 (Jun 24, 2010)

One of my H24s was getting really hot so I had to move it from on top of a DVD player which hasn't been turned on in years. The others seem to run cool and I'm pretty sure my HR24-500 has a fan on the back.


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## Dwight M (Jul 22, 2010)

Its amazing how much heat those little cooling fans can remove. My surround sound receiver used to roast, its not even warm now. There is just not a good spot to put one on the HR21 or my PS3. I have a floor fan blow at the TV stand when using the PS3 and shut off the HR21 but it still is hot. If the H24s run cooler maybe I will invest in one.


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

You might consider a USB powered laptop cooler.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Ventilation is a must, regardless of the model unit referenced.

USB cool pad fans do indeed work, and do indeed reduce the temps by 3-12 degrees, depending on how things are set up/stacked.

Electronics like cool - which is why PCs, DVR's, some HDTV's, and other devices have built-in cooling fans and other technology to dissipate heat. 

The environment these units are located has as much to do as the devices themselves, in terms of heat retention. Put simply, the better ventilated a location, the less likely heat buildup will be a problem. 

Placing an HD DVR in an enclosed cabinet doesn't allow heat to escape easily, likely raising the internal operating temperature. IN that case, some form of added colling method is advised.


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

I believe my HR24 was around 110 whereas my HR 20 was about 127.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

finaldiet said:


> I believe my HR24 was around 110 whereas my HR 20 was about 127.


Both those numbers seem quite consistent with what others have seen (me included).


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## Dwight M (Jul 22, 2010)

17 degrees is a big difference. I think I will upgrade because I also want to upgrade 3 SD receivers to HD.
Thanks for the info.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dwight M said:


> Does the H24 & HR24 receivers operate cooler than the HR21-700. I have a PS3, Sony surround sound receiver, Sony 55 LCD TV and a HR21-700. It is like having a heater on in my living room. I need the a/c on all the time even when it is cool outside. I had to put an external cooling fan on the surround sound receiver because it would get to hot and go into Protect Mode.
> I am looking for ways to lower the temps and if the H24s were operating cooler I would consider purchasing one.
> Thanks for any comments


Be interesting to know what kind of speakers you are using on your A/V system and how you have them configured. That A/V system shouldn't overheat unless you've got the speakers hooked up incorrectly. Don't be offended by this, speakers are hard to understand for most folks.

Rich


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## Dwight M (Jul 22, 2010)

Sony 7.1 receiver. Polk Audio speakers only using 5.1 setup. Positive and neg. wires are correct to all speakers.


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## 1dersky (Oct 9, 2007)

My H24 gets a little (underline little) warm on top, but that's it.

It's in a wide open space with several inches clearance on all sides though.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dwight M said:


> Sony 7.1 receiver. Polk Audio speakers only using 5.1 setup. Positive and neg. wires are correct to all speakers.


Huh. Thought you might have been using 6 or 4 ohm speakers or had 8 ohm speakers paralleled or in series. I use Polk speakers on my Sony A/V systems and have no heat problems. Swapping the positive and negative wires wouldn't cause any heating problems, but the other things I listed would.

Rich


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## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

finaldiet said:


> I believe my HR24 was around 110 whereas my HR 20 was about 127.


Your HR20 must be a 700. All my HR20-100s have always run about 5-10 degrees cooler than your 24 does. Maybe because the HR24s and HR20-100s are vented on the sides they run cooler than the 700s which vent on top.


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## Dwight M (Jul 22, 2010)

Before I put the external cooling fan on top of the receiver it would kick off in Protect Mode with the volume at half or greater when playing music ( HDNET concerts, Palladia, ect.) I never had it cut out watching a movie or TV. I have not had it cut out since adding the fan, even at 3/4+ volume. I need another fan for the PS3 and if I can get a HR24 I think that would help reduce the total amount of heat.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Dwight M said:


> 17 degrees is a big difference. I think I will upgrade because I also want to upgrade 3 SD receivers to HD.
> Thanks for the info.


True to a degree...

Keep in mind...we're talking about models 3 1/2 years apart in age (design), and despite the newer HR24's having larger hard drives and DECA built in...they run cooler - that's just from advancements in electronics over the years.

In general, cooler is always better for the operation of electronics.

P.S...the HR24-100 has side-to-side ventilation, while the HR24-500 has a rear fan for ventillation....just to keep that in mind in any of your planning.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

finaldiet said:


> I believe my HR24 was around 110 whereas my HR 20 was about 127.


All the electronics are fine at those temperatures except for the HR20's hard drive. The HR20's hard drive is just "OK". If it were another 10 deg. F warmer, you'd have to do something.


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## alv (Aug 13, 2002)

Does this indicate that they also take less power or is the heat dissipated better?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I would point out that if the concern is environmental heating (this _is_ what the OP was asking, after all), installing equipment cooling fans isn't going to improve the situation.

I'd be looking at other equipment as the power consumption of the HR21-700 is somewhere around 35 watts.

The older PS3 models are known space heaters consuming over 175 watts when idle (versus 1.9 watts when "off").

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-356-4.htm


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> All the electronics are fine at those temperatures except for the HR20's hard drive. The HR20's hard drive is just "OK". If it were another 10 deg. F warmer, you'd have to do something.


If that's a 20-700, the unit's running at design temp. No problem there. Want to cool it down? Drop a new HDD from WD in it in place of the internal. You'll go right to about 120 degrees.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

harsh said:


> I would point out that if the concern is environmental heating (this _is_ what the OP was asking, after all), installing equipment cooling fans isn't going to improve the situation.


Been wondering when someone was gonna point that out. It's like having a circuit breaker trip out constantly and resetting it constantly. Better to find out what causes the CB to trip than to keep resetting it. Could also make an analogy about toothaches and aspirin. All the aspirin does is take care of the symptom, doesn't do anything about the toothache. All a fan does is blow the hot air away, doesn't stop the air from being overheated.

Rich


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## chefwong (Jan 26, 2008)

Just put a 2TB in a HR24.....
I'm not going to benchmark but I am fairly confident temps (ambient or just hardware) should be better with the acoustical foam removed...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

chefwong said:


> Just put a 2TB in a HR24.....
> I'm not going to benchmark but I am fairly confident temps (ambient or just hardware) should be better with the acoustical foam removed...


At least you'll have some storage for a while. 

Only the HR24-500 has that foam in the drive mount housing (and a rear cooling fan) - the HR24-100 doesn't...the drive is mounted differently and has side-to-side cooling (fan).

But I would have left the foam as it was...even though I suspect it will impact the temp much either...but vibration / drive sound in the future....maybe...that's its real purpose in that location - sound absorption.

You can go to your setup menu....Info / Test...and it will tell you your internal temp with the new drive.....curious what it is now.... if you care to post it.

Enjoy that "biggie" drive.


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## chefwong (Jan 26, 2008)

WD EVDS 2tb drive
Currently at 126F


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

chefwong said:


> WD EVDS 2tb drive
> Currently at 126F


I don't think it should be that high. The 24-500 I have was running at 108 and when I put the external drive on it, it dropped to 106. Kinda hard to believe that 126 is the within the proper temp parameters for the 24s. The WD EADS 2TB drives that I have put internally in two of my 20-700s dropped the temps from about 126 to 120. I would think you should have seen that same drop in temp.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I don't think it should be that high. The 24-500 I have was running at 108 and when I put the external drive on it, it dropped to 106. Kinda hard to believe that 126 is the within the proper temp parameters for the 24s. The WD EADS 2TB drives that I have put internally in two of my 20-700s dropped the temps from about 126 to 120. I would think you should have seen that same drop in temp.
> 
> Rich


Agree.

My 1TB Hitachi runs at 110-112 externally and 113 internally.


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## chefwong (Jan 26, 2008)

Assuming that maybe it was the 1st time I put it in and it did a format ??
I did check later on that night and it was at 129F.

Prior to closing up the case, I verified the fan was up and operational.

Let me see what the temps are when I get home tonight...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

chefwong said:


> Assuming that maybe it was the 1st time I put it in and it did a format ??
> I did check later on that night and it was at 129F.
> 
> Prior to closing up the case, I verified the fan was up and operational.
> ...


Please describe where the HR24-500 unit itself is installed (in an open or enclosed cabinet, on a shelf, in an equipment rack, etc.)?

The HR24-500 has a ventilation design that pulls heat from the internal components and our of the unit via the rear-mounted fan - so the ability to move air *away in that direction *plays a key role.

While 129 degrees in operating mode is not an urgent concern, it is about 10-15 degrees higher than others I know with the same HD DVR - including a couple with larger internal drives.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Please describe where the HR24-500 unit itself is installed (in an open or enclosed cabinet, on a shelf, in an equipment rack, etc.)?
> 
> The HR24-500 has a ventilation design that pulls heat from the internal components and our of the unit via the rear-mounted fan - so the ability to move air *away in that direction *plays a key role.
> 
> While 129 degrees in operating mode is not an urgent concern, it is about 10-15 degrees higher than others I know with the same HD DVR - including a couple with larger internal drives.


That WD he's using should run cooler than the stock HDD, I think. If he has it in a closed cabinet with no holes, I could understand the high temp, but if that's in a well ventilated cabinet or on a shelf, something is wrong.

Rich


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## chefwong (Jan 26, 2008)

Not sure of chassis material comes into play. Metal vs Plastic.
It is on a Rack in a open closet. For example, I had the Tstat set to 75% and relatively close to the closet is a air outlet . With that said, the *ambient* temp in the closet was around 75 F.

In my configuration, while I do have couple of low rpm Papst fans as well in the rack, and it's sitting on a shelf with nothing ontop of it...

Hope this helps for those interested...let me see what the Operating temps are when I get home to compare *post initial install/initial format* from yesterday.

This is WITHOUT the supplied acoustical foam that was on the OEM drive.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

chefwong said:


> Not sure of chassis material comes into play. Metal vs Plastic.
> It is on a Rack in a open closet. For example, I had the Tstat set to 75% and relatively close to the closet is a air outlet . With that said, the *ambient* temp in the closet was around 75 F.
> 
> In my configuration, while I do have couple of low rpm Papst fans as well in the rack, and it's sitting on a shelf with nothing ontop of it...
> ...


Just a thought, you might have gotten a bad HDD. I've purchased three WD EADS 2TB HDDs and one was faulty. I've only bought one 2TB EVDS and that's working very well. My point is: You can get a bad HDD from WD.

If the temps continue to be that high, I'd try to swap out the HDD for another EVDS. You certainly aren't having a high ambient temp problem. Did you happen to note what the temp of the 24 was before you put the WD on it?

Rich


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## chefwong (Jan 26, 2008)

Per one of my postings, I did not do any benchmarks...prior.
Just swapped the HD's, looked at the foam and said that can't be good for thermals, left that out and called it a day.

Was not even concerned about temps as I verified the fan was working before I buttoned things back up. Per one of the posters, who inquired what the temp was, was when I started going into status and posted the temps .


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

chefwong said:


> Per one of my postings, I did not do any benchmarks...prior.
> Just swapped the HD's, looked at the foam and said *that can't be good for thermals, left that out* and called it a day.
> 
> Was not even concerned about temps as I verified the fan was working before I buttoned things back up. Per one of the posters, who inquired what the temp was, was when I started going into status and posted the temps .


The foam should be there regardless -its for vibration, not temps.

As you indicated, the housing for the drive is hard plastic, not a carrier of heat nor something that dissipates it either.

I agree with Rich that 129 degrees is abnormally high, even more so now based on where you have the unit installed, which would seem to provide ample ventilation.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The foam should be there regardless -its for vibration, not temps.
> 
> As you indicated, the housing for the drive is hard plastic, not a carrier of heat nor something that dissipates it either.
> 
> I agree with Rich that 129 degrees is abnormally high, even more so now based on where you have the unit installed, which would seem to provide ample ventilation.


Does seem awfully high for the setup he has. If the ambient temp is 75, I'd never expect that kind of temp reading. I just had problems with my A/C unit and it's been shut down all day and my 24 is reading 108. And that's with an external on it. Shouldn't be a 21 degree difference. His ambient temp is lower than mine. And I don't use cooling fans.

Rich


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## chefwong (Jan 26, 2008)

The hard drive is mounted on a plastic chassis - with rubber washers on both ends of the *mount* screw. I'm going to expect some play in vibration ...but that is what the rubber washers is for - as to isolate/mitigate it from transferring over to the chassis of the case.

With that said, I disagree on the foam but that's just my opinion and would prefer AIR to at least ontop of the HD instead of the dense foam.

Just got back home. Central Air is not on - wild guess on ambient temp would be 80F. The temp per status is 124F - just the same temp I originally had yesterday...FWIW


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## Sim-X (Sep 24, 2009)

My HR24-500 is running at 115°F w/an internal 2TB Western Digital EVDS Drive. I left the foam in on mine. I don't know what the stock drive ran at since I upgraded it as soon as I got it. 

One thing to note I do keep my box in a vertical position with the DTV logo on the box towards the top. 

There is plenty of ventilation in the back of the unit and enough (I think) on the sides. 

Thought I would report my setup in case anyone else with a similar setup is wondering. 

If anything I think the box may run even a little cooler since the bottom of the box isn't against anything.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Sim-X said:


> My HR24-500 is running at 115°F w/an internal 2TB Western Digital EVDS Drive. I left the foam in on mine. I don't know what the stock drive ran at since I upgraded it as soon as I got it.
> 
> *One thing to note I do keep my box in a vertical position with the DTV logo on the box towards the top.
> 
> ...


Since the primariy venillation is via the fan out the back, as long as there is a good exit path for warm air that can leave the unit out the back, folks will be OK.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since the primariy venillation is via the fan out the back, as long as there is a good exit path for warm air that can leave the unit out the back, folks will be OK.


Gotta admit I'm kinda puzzled at the differences in temps. My 24-500 is running at 104 degrees with a 2TB external on it. OK, that was yesterday's temp. Running at 106 today. Seems to go back and forth between 104 and 108.

Rich


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I agree with Rich that 129 degrees is abnormally high, even more so now based on where you have the unit installed, which would seem to provide ample ventilation.


129 F -> 53.9 C. Almost all hard drives are rated to 55 C. The other components should be rated to 70 C. This 129 F temperature is pushing it, but if it never gets hotter than 129 F, he's actually in the sweet spot for hard drive reliability. HD reliability continues to increase as temperature increases until around 57 C, where it then falls off like a cliff.

Does he have a secondary fan, or is he talking about the built-in fan? Just make sure you're not blowing the hot power supply air over the hard drive. You want to push the hot power supply air out. A poorly placed fan is worse than no fan at all. Maybe the fan got installed backwards?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Gotta admit I'm kinda puzzled at the differences in temps. My 24-500 is running at 104 degrees with a 2TB external on it. OK, that was yesterday's temp. Running at 106 today. Seems to go back and forth between 104 and 108.
> 
> Rich


Yeah...they do vary don't hey.

My HR24-100 runs steady at 112-113. Side to side good ventilation.

The HR24-500's seem to have a wider range of temps with it's rear cooling fan design....not sure why....but that part has become pretty well documented.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yeah...they do vary don't hey.
> 
> My HR24-100 runs steady at 112-113. Side to side good ventilation.
> 
> The HR24-500's seem to have a wider range of temps with it's rear cooling fan design....not sure why....but that part has become pretty well documented.


Maybe it doesn't matter. We've been worried about temps before and nothing ever really came of it.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Maybe it doesn't matter. We've been worried about temps before and nothing ever really came of it.
> 
> Rich


Temps 120 degrees or lower on a non-issue anyway.


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## MurrayW (Apr 13, 2006)

I am getting temperatures of 106 using my internal drive but 136 with my external drive. See this for more details: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2553358#post2553358


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MurrayW said:


> I am getting temperatures of 106 using my internal drive but 136 with my external drive. See this for more details: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2553358#post2553358


The only thing that would seem to line up with those results would be if the external drive causes the internal cooling fan to shut down....resulting in hotter temps in the unit.

Otherwise.....not sure what else it could be.


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## MurrayW (Apr 13, 2006)

No, I don't think the internal fan could be shutting off. If that was the case the temperature would never have dropped with the fan blowing on the external hard drive while not blowing on the DVR.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

My temperature on my HR24-500 was 126 before I added a Laptop Cool Pad to the mix which lowered it to 117 but that is still higher than most people report without the Pad.

Mine is in an enclosed cabinet but the Front and Back is Open now due to my having high temperatures and my Denon AVR5803 has tripped off several times now and I think it is due to high temps so I am going to buy a fan for it.

It also may be that the Power Supply Unit is getting old and needs to be replaced as when they get old they tend to bulge out and the power output becomes more Marginal so you have to crank it up more to get the same amount of output power and then it goes into Safe Mode and Shuts Down!!!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MurrayW said:


> No, I don't think the internal fan could be shutting off. If that was the case the temperature would never have dropped with the fan blowing on the external hard drive while not blowing on the DVR.


Perhaps....but if that same fan circulated the air enough to benefit the HR24 itself with added air-flow....you get the idea.

There is only one temp sensor, and its inside.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

MurrayW said:


> I am getting temperatures of 106 using my internal drive but 136 with my external drive. See this for more details: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2553358#post2553358


Without reading the other thread, that makes perfect sense to me. The "temp" reading we get is probably being reported by the hard drive's S.M.A.R.T. monitor, and I'd expect the external drive to run hotter.

*EDIT:* I just checked my H21-200 and H24-700, and neither displays internal temperature, so it's apparently drive temp being reported, and not case temp.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> Without reading the other thread, that makes perfect sense to me. The "temp" reading we get is probably being reported by the hard drive's S.M.A.R.T. monitor, and I'd expect the external drive to run hotter.
> 
> *EDIT:* I just checked my H21-200 and H24-700, and neither displays internal temperature, so it's apparently drive temp being reported, and not case temp.


I think it's always been the temp sensor on the internal drive that we see in the info page.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MurrayW said:


> I am getting temperatures of 106 using my internal drive but 136 with my external drive. See this for more details: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2553358#post2553358


Big difference on my setup. Without the external drive the 24-500 runs at a steady 108 degrees. With the Thermaltake docking station it ranges from 104-108. Right now it is at...104 degrees. But I'm using a WD EVDS 2TB HDD and perhaps that explains the difference.

In any event, as far as I know, the temp reading is always from the temp sensor on the internal HDD.

Rich


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I think it's always been the temp sensor on the internal drive that we see in the info page.
> 
> Rich


I think Murray's testing indicates without a doubt it's the temp of whichever drive is active.



MurrayW said:


> [...]
> 
> 4. I put a small table fan blowing directly on the external eSata drive, waited for about 15 minutes (checking temperature ever few minutes) and the temperature dropped from 135 to 106 [...]


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The only thing that would seem to line up with those results would be if the external drive causes the internal cooling fan to shut down....resulting in hotter temps in the unit.
> 
> Otherwise.....not sure what else it could be.


Could be that Hitachi drive he's using. That's the big difference between my 24-500 with a WD EVDS 2TV HDD setup and his. That and the docking station I'm using.

A couple weeks (or months, the time goes so quickly) ago, I swore I'd never use another external device. The only reason I tried the Thermaltake docking station was because a member was looking for a truly silent external setup for his room. Now I find myself amazed at how cool the external HDD is to the touch. Cooler than my MX-1, cooler than my Xtremes. Just warm to the touch. If it holds up and lasts a long time, I don't see how any other external device can beat it.

Rich


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Could be that Hitachi drive he's using [...]


You may be right about Hitachi drives, but if you're responding to the "internal fan shutting down theory", the internal temp of the box is not being reported.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> I think Murray's testing indicates without a doubt it's the temp of whichever drive is active.


I don't see how that can be. And, as I'm sure you've noticed, I usually (always?) agree with you.

Think about this from an electrical standpoint. If a greater "load" is put on any electrical device (and the HRs are, first, an electrical device) the greater "load" causes the amperage to rise causing the temperature to rise. Couldn't the Hitachi drive cause a greater load on the HR itself?

I'm certainly not seeing that kind of heat rise using an external drive on my 24. In fact, the temp of the 24 goes down when I use the external drive. Something has to be causing his temp to rise. The only two things it could be are the enclosure and the HDD, which are both different than mine.

Also, consider what happens when you remove the power cable from the internal of an HR and run it off an external drive. You get 32 degrees. When you put an external drive on a 21, you get 77 degrees and the fan stops running. None of the previous HRs gave you a read out of the external HDDs and, since externals are not supported, why would he be reading the external's temp on his HR?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> You may be right about Hitachi drives, but if you're responding to the "internal fan shutting down theory", the internal temp of the box is not being reported.


I'm not sure about the internal fan shutting down on the 24s. I've never had one open. I detailed what I have observed about the fans on other HRs in my last post. I always hear the 24's fan running when I put my head into the cabinet to see if the docking station or the HDD is making any noise. So it certainly runs with the external drive hooked up. And it runs at 104 degrees.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Could be that Hitachi drive he's using. That's the big difference between my 24-500 with a WD EVDS 2TV HDD setup and his. That and the docking station I'm using.
> 
> A couple weeks (or months, the time goes so quickly) ago, I swore I'd never use another external device. The only reason I tried the Thermaltake docking station was because a member was looking for a truly silent external setup for his room. Now I find myself amazed at how cool the external HDD is to the touch. Cooler than my MX-1, cooler than my Xtremes. Just warm to the touch. If it holds up and lasts a long time, I don't see how any other external device can beat it.
> 
> Rich


My 1TB Hitachi drives run steady at 112-113 degrees all the time.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Also, consider what happens when you remove the power cable from the internal of an HR and run it off an external drive. You get 32 degrees.


Maybe because you're removing the internal power cable and not just plugging in the external? If the HR expects the internal drive to be spinning, even if an external drive is active, that could explain erratic reporting.



> [...] since externals are not supported, why would he be reading the external's temp on his HR?


Not _officially_ supported, but the SMART monitoring info is generated by the drive itself.

I know we usually always agree , but I don't see any other way to explain that when Murray pro-actively cooled his external drive, he saw the reported temp drop 29 degrees in 15 minutes.

Also, if the drive temp is a critical measure, from an engineering standpoint why wouldn't you always want report the temp of the _active _drive? eSATA may not be officially supported, but the fact the units were designed with external SATA ports means that they contemplated this use in advance, with the intention of perhaps someday supporting it.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> Maybe because you're removing the internal power cable and not just plugging in the external? If the HR expects the internal drive to be spinning, even if an external drive is active, that could explain erratic reporting.


I haven't seen any erratic reporting. Each time I disconnected an internal and booted up the 20-700s on the externals each read 32 degrees. Each time I put an external on a 21, I got 77 degrees. Each reading was constant. And as soon as you put an external drive on a 21 the fan immediately stops running. I had a piece of toilet paper hanging over the intake (exhaust?) port of a 21-700 for a long time and I never saw that TP move. Not once.



> Not _officially_ supported, but the SMART monitoring info is generated by the drive itself.


I don't know enough to argue that point one way or the other. All I can do is rely on my observations of 20-700s and 21s. Those, I'm certain did not read the temp of the external drive.



> I know we usually always agree , but I don't see any other way to explain that when Murray pro-actively cooled his external drive, he saw the reported temp drop 29 degrees in 15 minutes.


OK, this I can discuss. Suppose the Hitachi runs really hot and puts a heavy "load" on the 24. Cooling the external Hitachi (or the enclosure) would reduce that load and would result in a lower temp on the HR itself. I've used large industrial fans to cool down motors and reduce the "load", thereby allowing the thermal protection in the motor starters to allow the motors to run.



> Also, if the drive temp is a critical measure, from an engineering standpoint why wouldn't you always want report the temp of the _active _drive?


I would! I was surprised that the 21s defaulted to 77 degrees every time I put an external HDD on one. The 20-700s continue to give the temp readings with an external on as do the 24-500s. I'd love to see the external's temp measured.



> eSATA may not be officially supported, but the fact the units were designed with external SATA ports means that they contemplated this use in advance, with the intention of perhaps someday supporting it.


Well, perhaps the 24s are the first to do this. But if they are, it's strange that my 24 is so close to the internal's temp with or without the external hooked up. This leads me to believe that the 24s act just as the previous models did/do.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My 1TB Hitachi drives run steady at 112-113 degrees all the time.


I almost bought one. The prices were much less than WD's. But then I started searching posts for "Hitachi" and several times I saw them referred to as "Deathstars". That kinda turned me off. 

Rich


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Steve said:


> [...] I don't see any other way to explain that when Murray pro-actively cooled his external drive, he saw the reported temp drop 29 degrees in 15 minutes [...]





rich584 said:


> [...] OK, this I can discuss. Suppose the Hitachi runs really hot and puts a heavy "load" on the 24. Cooling the external Hitachi (or the enclosure) would reduce that load and would result in a lower temp on the HR itself [...]


I'm not an EE, but I still have to respectfully disagree, because I don't see how a SMART sensor on the internal drive can measure the temp of anything but that drive itself.

And one thing we do agree on is it doesn't make sense for the engineers to not want to monitor the active drive temp. 

I don't know any of this for a fact, but perhaps some of these disparities may be explained by different drive make/model's ability to support SMART, and some of the changes we've seen in HR diagnostics over the past several NR's. I know the diagnostic tests I can now run on my HR20's weren't there when I first got them. My oldest HR20 has an "original software date" of 8/06, but the latest diagnostics that can be invoked during boot-up include something called an "external drive test".

Debugging this might be easier if we knew if everyone using HR20's with externals were seeing that same 32 degree temp you saw, or if it matters which external drive they are using or software release they're on.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> I'm not an EE, but I still have to respectfully disagree, because I don't see how a SMART sensor on the internal drive can measure the temp of anything but that drive itself.
> 
> And one thing we do agree on is it doesn't make sense for the engineers to not want to monitor the active drive temp.


Yeah, but the people who do the programming do a lot of things that don't make sense.



> I don't know any of this for a fact, but perhaps some of these disparities may be explained by different drive make/model's ability to support SMART, and some of the changes we've seen in HR diagnostics over the past several NR's. I know the diagnostic tests I can now run on my HR20's weren't there when I first got them. My oldest HR20 has an "original software date" of 8/06, but the latest diagnostics that can be invoked during boot-up include something called an "external drive test".


Huh. I've never used the diagnostics, so I never saw that. I really don't know the answer to the questions and don't know how to find out to my satisfaction unless I open one up and try to disconnect the internal drive with the external active and see if the 24 still gives a temp reading. Not about to do that, so...



> It would be interesting to note if everyone using HR20's with externals are seeing that same 32 degree temp you saw, or if it matters which external drive they are using or software release they're on.


They would have to open the box and pull the power cord off the internal drive. Some of us have done that and, I think, all have seen the 32 degree reading. Harder to do now. You can't just disconnect the internal drive and boot up on the external. Forget what steps you have to take, but *Trailblazer* has done it and got his 20-100 to work without the internal powered up. Don't remember if he commented on the temp at the time.

Rich


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Steve said:


> It would be interesting to note if everyone using HR20's with externals are seeing that same 32 degree temp you saw, or if it matters which external drive they are using or software release they're on.





rich584 said:


> [...] They would have to open the box and pull the power cord off the internal drive.


That's my earlier point. By doing that, you've created an environment the HR2x may not be programmed to handle (no spinning internal drive but a spinning external drive), which could explain unpredictable reporting results. What if the HR's always expect the internal drive to be "alive", and only recognize the external drive (and it's SMART data) when it's connected?


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## MurrayW (Apr 13, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps....but if that same fan circulated the air enough to benefit the HR24 itself with added air-flow....you get the idea.
> 
> There is only one temp sensor, and its inside.


I checked today and my temperature reading was 142...the highest I have every seen it. This is the external with no fan blowing. The fan was still sitting right in front of the external drive, so perhaps it was blocking some of the natural air flow that helps cool the external drive.

To check out the fan blowing on the HR24 theory, I took the fan and placed it on a shelf right underneath the HR24 blowing straight up to the bottom of the HR24 (these are wire shelves so there is nothing blocking the air flow). I had to go from the bottom because there was no room to put the fan on the shelf that holds the HR24. Over the course of an hour the temperature dropped from 142 to 120 and stabilized at 120.

I am not sure if it is the load of the external drive that is causing the internal temperature to be higher or that the external drive's temperature is somehow being measured, but i do know that cooling the HR24 directly does not lower the temperature as much as cooling the external drive directly.

Maybe I will try a test on another brand of external hard drive when I get a chance.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> That's my earlier point. By doing that, you've created an environment the HR2x may not be programmed to handle (no spinning internal drive but a spinning external drive), which could explain unpredictable reporting results. What if the HR's always expect the internal drive to be "alive", and only recognize the external drive (and it's SMART data) when it's connected?


There was a time when you could disconnect the internal drive and run the 20-700s on the external without issues, but an NR stopped that. There is still a way to do it, but it's a lot more complicated. If I had to guess, I'd say it's now a part of the boot-up process that demands to see the internal drive running. Before that NR, it was easy to shut off the internal drive. Don't really see what purpose the internal drive has when an external is being used, but...

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MurrayW said:


> I checked today and my temperature reading was 142...the highest I have every seen it. This is the external with no fan blowing. The fan was still sitting right in front of the external drive, so perhaps it was blocking some of the natural air flow that helps cool the external drive.
> 
> To check out the fan blowing on the HR24 theory, I took the fan and placed it on a shelf right underneath the HR24 blowing straight up to the bottom of the HR24 (these are wire shelves so there is nothing blocking the air flow). I had to go from the bottom because there was no room to put the fan on the shelf that holds the HR24. Over the course of an hour the temperature dropped from 142 to 120 and stabilized at 120.
> 
> ...


Or maybe we'll never know. That's happened before. 

Rich


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> [...] Don't really see what purpose the internal drive has when an external is being used, but...


I don't know this for a fact, but imagine if the current s/w and/or indexed GUIDE or SMART SEARCH data no longer fit entirely in firmware memory. The "overflow" might have to be stored on a system partition on the internal drive. You wouldn't want to store this on the external drive, because if that drive's not present, for whatever reason, everything needed to boot properly might not be there.

Not saying this is the case at all, but it's possible.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Or maybe we'll never know. That's happened before.
> 
> Rich


True.

Sure seems highly irregular to see those kinds of temps, especially up to 140+ ...no matter what.


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## MurrayW (Apr 13, 2006)

MurrayW said:


> I checked today and my temperature reading was 142...the highest I have every seen it. This is the external with no fan blowing. The fan was still sitting right in front of the external drive, so perhaps it was blocking some of the natural air flow that helps cool the external drive.
> 
> To check out the fan blowing on the HR24 theory, I took the fan and placed it on a shelf right underneath the HR24 blowing straight up to the bottom of the HR24 (these are wire shelves so there is nothing blocking the air flow). I had to go from the bottom because there was no room to put the fan on the shelf that holds the HR24. Over the course of an hour the temperature dropped from 142 to 120 and stabilized at 120.
> 
> ...


Here's one more piece of information. I left the fan on all day and at the end of the night I checked the temperature once more and it was 108. The drive still "felt" hot to the touch -- not quite as hot as with no fan, but definitely much hotter than when the fan was blowing directly on the drive and it felt about room temperature.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MurrayW said:


> Here's one more piece of information. I left the fan on all day and at the end of the night I checked the temperature once more and it was 108. The drive still "felt" hot to the touch -- not quite as hot as with no fan, but definitely much hotter than when the fan was blowing directly on the drive and it felt about room temperature.


Thanks for that update....seems things continue to point in the direction of the drive itself...especially if it was still that hot to the touch after all that time.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> I don't know this for a fact, but imagine if the current s/w and/or indexed GUIDE or SMART SEARCH data no longer fit entirely in firmware memory. The "overflow" might have to be stored on a system partition on the internal drive. You wouldn't want to store this on the external drive, because if that drive's not present, for whatever reason, everything needed to boot properly might not be there.
> 
> Not saying this is the case at all, but it's possible.


I think they do that now, to some extent, on both internal and externals. Isn't that what the 100GB reserve is for?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for that update....seems things continue to point in the direction of the drive itself...especially if it was still that hot to the touch after all that time.


Agreed. I gave it some thought and if he pulls the external and uses the stock internal, I would imagine he's going to see about 108 degrees. Put on the external and the temp rises so much he has to use a fan. That would definitely point to the external HDD. Perhaps they just aren't made for DVRs?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> True.
> 
> Sure seems highly irregular to see those kinds of temps, especially up to 140+ ...no matter what.


Saw a post (on this thread?) that said that all HDDs are rated for 155 degrees (or 150). But still, my 24-500 with the WD EVDS 2TB external is running at...106 degrees right now. Gotta be that HDD he's using. I think.

Rich


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> There was a time when you could disconnect the internal drive and run the 20-700s on the external without issues, but an NR stopped that. There is still a way to do it, but it's a lot more complicated. If I had to guess, I'd say it's now a part of the boot-up process that demands to see the internal drive running. Before that NR, it was easy to shut off the internal drive. * Don't really see what purpose the internal drive has when an external is being used, but...*





Steve said:


> I don't know this for a fact, but imagine if the current s/w and/or indexed GUIDE or SMART SEARCH data no longer fit entirely in firmware memory. The "overflow" might have to be stored on a system partition on the internal drive. You wouldn't want to store this on the external drive, because if that drive's not present, for whatever reason, everything needed to boot properly might not be there.
> 
> Not saying this is the case at all, but it's possible.





rich584 said:


> I think they do that now, to some extent, on both internal and externals. Isn't that what the 100GB reserve is for?


Ya, along with "showcase" material, but I'm speculating there may be some system files that must be on the internal drive, even if you're using an external. That might explain why you can no longer boot off an external when the internal isn't present.

Again, just speculation on my part.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> Ya, along with "showcase" material, but I'm speculating there may be some system files that must be on the internal drive, even if you're using an external. That might explain why you can no longer boot off an external when the internal isn't present.
> 
> Again, just speculation on my part.


Gave that some thought and I think you're probably right. Hadn't considered that aspect.

Rich


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