# EEPG (9 Day Guide) is a REQUIREMENT on new Dish Network PVR DVR receivers



## witschey

The purpose of this new thread is to discuss the fact that new Dish Network receivers (like the 522 model) are being programmed in a such a way that they MUST have access to the EEPG (9 day Program Guide) in order for them to work properly.

Previous DVR receivers (like the 508) would work properly without the EEPG (9 Day Program Guide), but the new receivers MUST have the EEPG (9 Day Program Guide) or all types of recurring events (including name based recording, all episodes, new episodes, monday to friday recording, etc.) will NOT work on a recurring basis.

What I mean with 'will not work on a recurring basis' is that that new recording events will NOT be created automatically following the recurring event instructions when a new guide is downloaded....unless you have the EEPG (9 day program guide).

The choice to put the EEPG only on transponder 29 of the 110 degree satellite AND at the same time designing receivers (like the 522 which I own) that will ONLY work properly when they have the EEPG (9 day guide) is making our equipment useless.

I have spent considerable amount of time discussing the issue with Dish Network. First with regular technical support, who didn't have a CLUE about what I was talking about. They wanted to exchange my receiver!!!! Fortunately I didn't allow them to do this, and I escalated the issue to second level support, the executive offices of Dish Network, etc...and now it is clear that this is a defect in my receiver, but it is rather a design choice that Dish Network made on the current software of the 522 receiver.

In another words, the software engineering team of Dish Network decided to make this an 'undocumented' design choice. Undocumented in the sense that NOTHING about this is mentioned in the manual of the 522 receiver. The manual does NOT mention ANYWHERE that having access to the EEPG (9 Day guide) is a requirement and/or that having access to all transponders of satellite 110 is a must.

I would call this a 'BUG' but Mr. *name deleted* (Technical Product Support Department), says it is NOT a bug, because that is how the 522 was designed!!!

I would like to encourage all of you who would like to see the EEPG (9 day program guide) moved to another (stronger) satellite, or be copied to another satellite (so that it is available in several satellites at once), to contact Dish Network and complain about the situation.

Please write a complaint explaining them clearly that you are facing this same problem (you can cut and paste parts of this message if you want) to the following email addresses

ceo at echostar period com
dishquality at echostar period com

NOTE: The system won't allow me to write the addresses posted above in standard format, since I am new on this bulletin board. Please put the address in standard format before sending your complaint to echostar.

Personally I think (and I have sent an e-mail to Dish expressing this view) that Echostar should do AT LEAST DO ONE of the following things to help those of us who are having problems.

1) Echostar should put the 9 day EEPG ALSO on the 119 degree satellite. Echostar has installed SO MANY DVR/PVR units that numberwise there is already enough justification to put the guide also on satellite 119. You have the 44 guide on EVERY single satellite. Why not have the EEPG at least on two satellites (the 110 and the 119)?

2) Echostar should move the EEPG (9 day guide) to another transponder on satelite 110 which has more power, an is therefore MUCH more likely to be received by ALL Echostar Subscribers regardless of whether they live in the continental USA, Alaska, Hawaii, the Caribean, etc...or even people like me who have trees/buildings in the way who can receive transponders 1 to 21, but NOT transponder 29!!!! (most of the transponders from 1 to 21 are OK).

3) Echostar should update the internal software of the DVR/PVR receivers so that the receivers will fetch the 44 hour guide whenever they are unable to fetch the EEPG (9 day guide). At the present time if a DVR/PVR is connected to both satellite 110 and 119 and it is unable to fetch the EEPG program guide (for example because transponder 29 can't be received..eventhough transponders 1 to 21 CAN be received) from satellite 110 it simply wont fetch ANY guide at all. A simple 'Conditional' in the programing of the receiver would solve the problem. Something like: If EEPG can't be retrieved during the first three attempts retrieve the 44 hour program guide.

4) Echostar should update the internal software of its newest PVR/DVR receivers (like the PVR 522) so that they are able to work properly with the 44 hour program guide. A person who has the receiver connected to both satellite 110 and 119 but is unable to access the EEPG because of the weak signal of transponder 29 will NOT get ANY program guide at all as documented in point 3 above. A receiver that is connected to one or more satellites (like the 119), but NOT to the 110 satellite WILL be able to download the 44 hour program guide successfully. However, the PVR 522 receivers only work well when they have access to the EEPG (which currently is only available through a weak transponder (transponder 29) on the 110 satellite. If a person (like me) can't receive a good signal from transponder 29 (because it is too weak to pass through trees, neighbour walls, etc) the PVR 522 recurring events and name based recording WILL NOT WORK properly. The reason for this is that Echostar currently has a software on the PVR 522 receiver that REQUIRES the 9 Day EEPG program guide for the NBR (name based recording) and recurring recordings to work properly. Withou the EEPG the recurring events/nbs will ONLY work initially (when the recurring event is first setup), but will NOT setup new recording events as new programming days are downloaded by the receiver. So in essense, a person who can't receive the EEPG will be able to ONLY setup recurring events that span 44 hours; and then that person will have to reprogram the receiver's recurring events to be able to record those shows again. The receiver WILL NOT setup new recording events as days go by...unless it has the EEPG (which is ONLY available on transponder 29 of satellite 110).


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## JohnMI

But -- and I'm being a bit Devil's Advocate here... Doesn't Dish state that for their service you need a "clear view" of the satellites? I mean, you seem to be a very odd case -- someone that can only see part of 110 due to trees?? That can't be THAT common.

Since Dish clearly states that a view of 110 and 119 are required for service, I don't see a problem with them putting something such as the EEPG only on 110 and having a receiver that needs to see it to work properly.

To be honest, I don't need Dish using more bandwidth on another satellite such as 119 for something already on 110 that should be available already to subscribers.

Heck, I'm for pulling the 44 off of one of them to avoid that duplication too then! 

- John...


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## Mark Lamutt

Welcome to DBSTalk, witschey. You're telling us that there's no place at all on your property that you have a clear shot at 110? That's not at all a common occurrence in the ConUS.


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## witschey

jgoggan said:


> But -- and I'm being a bit Devil's Advocate here... Doesn't Dish state that for their service you need a "clear view" of the satellites? I mean, you seem to be a very odd case -- someone that can only see part of 110 due to trees?? That can't be THAT common.
> 
> Since Dish clearly states that a view of 110 and 119 are required for service, I don't see a problem with them putting something such as the EEPG only on 110 and having a receiver that needs to see it to work properly.
> 
> To be honest, I don't need Dish using more bandwidth on another satellite such as 119 for something already on 110 that should be available already to subscribers.
> 
> Heck, I'm for pulling the 44 off of one of them to avoid that duplication too then!
> 
> - John...


John, please do play Devil's advocate if you want. Challenging and contributing to posts is what it is all about.

I agree that "clear view" to a Dish Satellite is a requirement, but I haven't seen stated anywhere that clear view to both 110 and 119 are needed.

Since you are stating that one needs to have clear view to both of those satellites, can you please tell us where you read that? I would be VERY interested in knowing if that is documented somewhere. You make it sound as if it is.

I DID NOT say that someone that I could only see part of 110 due to trees. The trees and obstructions of the area reduce hte strength of the signal on satellite 110 overall; and that means that I can view transponders 1 to 21, but NOT 29; which iswhere the guide is.

But lets turn away from MY particular situation. That is NOT the point of the post. I wish you could all view this from a broader perspective, where you take into account all those Dish Network service areas that are beign affected like US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Alaska...many of which need a large dish to get signal from the 119 satellite and can't get transponder 29 of satellite 110 even if they put a second LARGE dish.

The issue at hand is WHY does Dish Network put the EEPG on a satellite and transponder that can't be received by all service areas.

I am not insisting on Echostar replicating the guide and putting it on all satellites (although unlike you I wouldn't have a problem with that. After all they already have the 44 guide on ALL satellites...not only two of them!!!!).

So if they prefer not to replicate the guide, why don't they just change it to satellite 119 and make ALL service areas happy.


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## witschey

Mark Lamutt said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk, witschey. You're telling us that there's no place at all on your property that you have a clear shot at 110? That's not at all a common occurrence in the ConUS.


Maybe my particular case is unique within the continental USA...but I am not talking about the continental USA only. I would like us to discuss this topic more from the perspective of the Dish Network service area. People in Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, Hawaii and Alaska area affected. Sure, not a lot of people live in those areas, but still they are paying customers..and in my view Dish Network should try to find a solution that applies not only to the Continental USA but to all service areas. If they were to replicate or move the EEPG to the 119 satellite ALL problems would be solved for ALL service areas involved. So why insist in putting the EEPG on satellite 110 only.

Now if replicating or copying the EEPG on another satellite is too difficult or costly, then why not modify the software on the 522 receivers so that they can also work with the 44 hour program guide when the EEPG is not available?

IOW, why make the EEPG a NON DOCUMENTED requirement on the 522 receivers when not everybody can get the EEPG?


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## Bill R

Witschey,

I agree with Mark. There should be some location on your property where you can locate your dish so that you can get the 110 satellite. If you knew from the start that you couldn't get 110, for you, DISH network was a poor choice anyway since many of their channels (in the higher packages) are from 110.


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## JohnMI

Well, I can agree with you somewhat on the Alaska/Hawaii issues. I'm not familiar with reception there. Can most people in Alaska and/or Hawaii NOT see 110?

Dish offers packages for people there that include the 510. If the 510 really does not function properly without 110 -- and MOST people there cannot see the EEPG from 110 -- then I agree that Dish has a problem with that and needs to correct it.

- John...


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## witschey

Bill R said:


> Witschey,
> 
> I agree with Mark. There should be some location on your property where you can locate your dish so that you can get the 110 satellite. If you knew from the start that you couldn't get 110, for you, DISH network was a poor choice anyway since many of their channels (in the higher packages) are from 110.


No, I didn't know from the start that that I would not be able to receive signal from SOME transponders of 110. I CAN receive signal from transponders 1 to 21 on satellite 110.

The ONLY reason that I care about satellite 110 is because of the EEPG. There is NOTHING on satellite 110 that I care about besides the EEPG. I would be perfectly happy with having only satellite 119 connected if hte EEPG was in that satellite.

I subscribe to the basic package (top 60) of Dish Network and some movie channels and that is all I want/need. So 119 is enough for me.

I had a 508 receiver and that one worked FINE with the 44 hour guide. If Dish modified hte software on the 522 to work well with both the 44 hour guide and the EEPG guide that would also work for me (and for the rest of the people affected).


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## JohnMI

Have you confirmed that the 522 requires the EEPG? I mean -- just to make sure this isn't some problem with your unit?

Can anyone else confirm that the 522 does not work properly without the EEPG?

And, can someone confirm that MOST people in Alaska and Hawaii can't see the EEPG on 110? Because, if that isn't the case, then it is hard to feel too bad for this guy -- since it is such a limited situation of not being able to get a good signal on PART of 110...

- John...


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## witschey

jgoggan said:


> Well, I can agree with you somewhat on the Alaska/Hawaii issues. I'm not familiar with reception there. Can most people in Alaska and/or Hawaii NOT see 110?
> 
> Dish offers packages for people there that include the 510. If the 510 really does not function properly without 110 -- and MOST people there cannot see the EEPG from 110 -- then I agree that Dish has a problem with that and needs to correct it.
> 
> - John...


I don't know about the 510, but I have a 508 receiver that works well with the 44 guide that is available on satellite 119.

I know people in areas where tp 29 of 110 can't be received....and they had a 522 installed by Dish Network or one of the dealers.

Furtheremore, Dish 522 are being sold now a days (just like 508, 510, etc.) on Ebay and through official dealers. One needs to go through the Executive Office to check if hte receiver is legal before they activate it, but they WILL activate a 522 receiver BOUGHT (not leased) if the R00 and S00 numbers are pre-cleared by the Executive Office of Dish Network.

Given that situation, the very least Dish should do is write in the documentation of the receiver or their website that the 522 will ONLY work if it can get the EEPG of satellite 110....or they should put the EEPG guide on satellite 119 where it can be accessed by everybody in the service area....or they should change they should update the software of the 522 so that (like the 508) it can work with the 44 hour program guide that is available on EVERY satellite.


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## JohnMI

witschey said:


> I know people in areas where tp 29 of 110 can't be received....and they had a 522 installed by Dish Network or one of the dealers.


And you have confirmed with them that their 522 does NOT work properly then? That is what I'm asking.

- John...


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## witschey

jgoggan said:


> Have you confirmed that the 522 requires the EEPG? I mean -- just to make sure this isn't some problem with your unit?
> 
> Can anyone else confirm that the 522 does not work properly without the EEPG?
> 
> And, can someone confirm that MOST people in Alaska and Hawaii can't see the EEPG on 110? Because, if that isn't the case, then it is hard to feel too bad for this guy -- since it is such a limited situation of not being able to get a good signal on PART of 110...
> 
> - John...


YES, I have confirmed with Dish Network that the 522 requires the EEPG for the recurring events and NBR to work.

It wasn't easy to confirm this information, because most of the technical support people are not very familiar with the 522 and particularly the NBR/recurring events portion of it. However after a lot of phone conversations TWO people within Dish Networks confirmed to me that the EEPG is needed for the 522 to work.

They are:

*name deleted* (Technical Product Support Department)
*name deleted* (Customer Resolution Specialist - Executive Offices Dish Network).

With regards to obtaining confirmation that the same situation is faced by people living in Hawaii, you can visit the following threads on satelliteguys.us:

"522 Name Based Recording Problems"
"522 DVR Name Based Recording problems"


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## Jim Parker

jgoggan said:


> Well, I can agree with you somewhat on the Alaska/Hawaii issues. I'm not familiar with reception there. Can most people in Alaska and/or Hawaii NOT see 110?
> 
> - John...


Most areas of Anchorage can see 110, some parts can not because of the mountains to the east of town. Many other areas of Alaska can not see 110 at all. It takes a 6' dish to reliably see 110 here. I tried with a 4' dish and had too many drop outs. A 6' dish is NOT a trivial thing to install! Very few subscribers here have one. Most have 3' dishes looking at 119. I only installed it for the HD.


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## witschey

jgoggan said:


> And you have confirmed with them that their 522 does NOT work properly then? That is what I'm asking.
> 
> - John...


Yes,without the EEPG the NBR (Name Based Recording) and ALL types of recurring events won't work. Not only have I confirmed this with the people affected, but with Dish Networks themselves.

Unlike the 508 receiver, which had no problem working with the 44 hour program guide, the recurring events, nbr features, etc. of the 522 receiver WILL ONLY work if it can access the EEPG.

Since the EEPG is only available on satellite 110 TP29 and that can't be accessed from Hawaii, Alaska and by some of us (however few) in the USA; the 522 won't work. If the EEPG was on the 119, or the 522 coudl work of the 44 hour program guide (like the 508) the problem would be solved.


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## JohnMI

Well, then I tend to agree with witschey. This does sound like a problem that Dish needs to resolve -- either by changing firmware in the 522 or moving the EEPG to 119. They state that they offer service to people in Alaska and Hawaii -- and even have bundles which include the 522. If the 522 cannot function properly in such places, then that is indeed a problem.

So, from what I've heard so far here -- if that is correct -- I have to agree with him on his frustration with Dish. The 522 does not perform as described to some places where Dish has no problem offering it.

- John...


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## witschey

Jim Parker said:


> Most areas of Anchorage can see 110, some parts can not because of the mountains to the east of town. Many other areas of Alaska can not see 110 at all. It takes a 6' dish to reliably see 110 here. I tried with a 4' dish and had too many drop outs. A 6' dish is NOT a trivial thing to install! Very few subscribers here have one. Most have 3' dishes looking at 119. I only installed it for the HD.


Thanks for the sign of support Jim Parker. Can you tell us if the people who are able to see satellite 110 from Alaska are also able to see transporter 29?

I know people whose ability to see 110 is limited to transporters 1 to 21, but are NOT able to see transporter 29 (which is weaker than the rest); hence being able to view satellite 110 is useless to them when it comes to using it with the 522....because without the EEPG the NBR and Recurring Events won't work.


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## larrystotler

E* policy for new installs done by installers is that unless you can get BOTH the 110 and the 119, the install is a no shot. However, if someone does a self-install, they may not know that. IF you system was professionally installed, then I would suggest contacting the install company and having them fix this. Yes, the choice of 110/29 is pretty stupid, but it is too late now. 110 has more available space than the 119, and the 119 has been pretty filled up for a long time.


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## witschey

larrystotler said:


> E* policy for new installs done by installers is that unless you can get BOTH the 110 and the 119, the install is a no shot. However, if someone does a self-install, they may not know that. IF you system was professionally installed, then I would suggest contacting the install company and having them fix this. Yes, the choice of 110/29 is pretty stupid, but it is too late now. 110 has more available space than the 119, and the 119 has been pretty filled up for a long time.


No, I installed the system myself, with PURCHASED (not leased) equipment (both my 508 and 522 are owned), because I travel a lot for business (sometimes for months at a time) and that gives me the possibility to disconnect and reconnect my service as I want, without contract commitments.

If installers were only allowed to setup the system if a clear view to both 110 and 119 were necessary, then nobody in Alaska, Hawaii and perhaps even Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands would be able to get service. However Dish Network DOES sell service in all those areas where seeing 110 completely clear (iow all transponders) is not really possible. The 522 is used in those areas as well, with similar problems to mine.

I wonder if anybody knows how 'big' the EEPG really is and what the bandwith requirements are. Just trying to figure out if the 119 satellite REALLY has no space. There is a bunch of 'crappy' channels on 119. Some of those (like the ones showing how to operate the remote control, system, etc) could be moved to the 110 since they are NOT vital, and the EEPG moved to the 119 given the fact that hte new receivers MUST have it. Having the EEPG on the new receives is NO LONGER a nice to have but a must because of the programming that Dish Network put on those receivers. An alternative is to update software on new receivers (like the 522) to make htem work with the 44 program guide (just like their predecesors the 508 for instance...which worked with both the 44 and EEPG guides well).


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## Mark Lamutt

Alright, I now know what this is about. witschey, you are either mistaken in your interpretation of what the Dish people told you, or you are purposely misconstruing what they told you in order to create a false rallying cry against Dish Network. Either way, here's the real story about this, directly from the Dish engineers working on the 522:

There is a bug in the current 522/625 software that is keeping the timers from being defined after the 2-day guide is downloaded. This is a known issue and it is scheduled to be fixed in the next software release. For what it's worth, the 942 does not have this bug.

Once the new software has spooled, the 522 and 625 will once again work just fine and dandy with the 44 hour guide.


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## Jim Parker

witschey said:


> Thanks for the sign of support Jim Parker. Can you tell us if the people who are able to see satellite 110 from Alaska are also able to see transporter 29?


I will check signal strength of transponder 29 vs the others when I get home and let you know.

FYI I have a 921 and a 510 connected to the 48" dish looking at 119 and the 6' looking at 110. I could be wrong, but I thought that I had a 7 day guide on the 501 and 510 from 119 before I put up the 6' dish to see 110. Am I mis-remembering or did the program guide on 119 change since Dec 31, 2003?


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## Pat A

Jim, the extended guide has never been on 119, as far as I can remember. I have 1 meter dish pointed to 110, a .76m pointed to 119, and a .6m pointed to 148. I do not recall what my signal strength is on TP29, but I do not have a problem downloading the guide info. I do have to agree with witschey, in that I think that the extended guide should be moved to 119. Dish only markets Top 60, and 120 in Alaska because it takes a much larger antenna to receive 110. There is certainly no practical single dish solution for 110/119 for us lonely dish subscribers up up here in the great white north. Bottom line is that probably 90% of the alaska subscribers only have a single dish pointed to 119 for the core Top 60/120 programing. With dish's push for DVR receivers (which I am all for...) They really should move the extended guide to the "core" slot so that all subscribers can benefit from the advantages of the 9 day guide. While I am at it, I am going to vent on another related issue. I have an antenna pointed to 110 primarily for the guide and the HD channels. The power level for the 110 transponders varies greatly up here in Alaska. With my 1m antenna, they range from about 45 to 80 on a clear day. Dish have chosen to place the HD (and most of the Top 180) channels on transponders that I see at a strength of about 50-54 on a clear day. What this means is that I have a lot of lost signals when it rains or snows. Mean while, dish has loaded the hottest transponders with mostly PPV channels, which I do not use. If dish were to shuffle the HD and top 180 channels to the hotter transponders at 110, I would help those customers currently paying for these channels, as well as make it easier for lower tier customers to upgrade to more expensive packages ($$ for dish....) Just my two cents on the subject.....


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## witschey

Mark Lamutt said:


> Alright, I now know what this is about. witschey, you are either mistaken in your interpretation of what the Dish people told you, or you are purposely misconstruing what they told you in order to create a false rallying cry against Dish Network. Either way, here's the real story about this, directly from the Dish engineers working on the 522:
> 
> There is a bug in the current 522/625 software that is keeping the timers from being defined after the 2-day guide is downloaded. This is a known issue and it is scheduled to be fixed in the next software release. For what it's worth, the 942 does not have this bug.
> 
> Once the new software has spooled, the 522 and 625 will once again work just fine and dandy with the 44 hour guide.


Mr. Mark Lammutt. Unfortunately not all of us have access to 'Dish Enginers' so those of us who only have access to the Technical Support and Executive Offices of Dish Network have to live with the information that they provide us.

I am happy to hear that somebody from the Dish Engineering team is aware of this issue and specially happy to hear that the next software release they will fix the issue.

You are the FIRST person in over 3 weeks of discussions with Dish Networks that tells me that Dish Networks accepts that there is a bug with the 522 software which prevents timers from defined when the guide is downloaded and one has setup NBR / Recurring events.

Nobody at Dish Networks wanted to accept this as a problem. When I contacted technical support about this issue they wanted to exchange my brand new 522 receiver. And those of us who have been around with Dish for a while, know that when they do that, you get a refurbished, not a new receiver in exchange. Then when I told them that other people were facing the issue and I escalated the issue to the executive offices, I got a phone call from somebody who is supposetely VERY knowledgeable on the 522 and is aware of all the issues with the receiver *name deleted* (Technical Product Support Department)", who told me that the receiver was designed to only work with the EEPG (9 day guide) and that Dish was NOT going to modify (fix in my view) the receiver to work with the 44 hour guide because those of us who needed to use the receiver with the 44 hour program guide (mainly those who can't get the 110 for one reason or anther) were statistically insignificant.

So I don't appreciate you saying that I have "either mistaken in your interpretation of what the Dish people told you, or you are purposely misconstruing what they told you in order to create a false rallying cry against Dish Network".

I am not misconstruing anything, nor do I want to create false rallying against Dish Network. I love watching Dish, all I want is for my brand new 522 which I purchased (didn't lease) to work the way it is supposed to work either with the 44 hour program guide or the EEPG. I don't care which guide it uses (the EEPG would be better, but I will be happy with the 44 hour program guide) as long as NBR, recurring events work and re-create themselves with new updates to the guide...the way it is supposed to work.

So, since you seem to have such good connections with the Dish Network engineers, can you give us an indication of when the new software release will be send out to receivers?

By the way, is there a webpage where Dish Network customers can see the list of 'bugs' that have been acknowledged by Dish Network as Bugs and when Dish plans to fix them? Having such a list available to the public would be very helpful since we wouldn't have to rely on people like yourself to establish contact with the Dish Engineers to check if an issue is acknowledged as a bug and is planned to be fixed.


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## witschey

Jim Parker said:


> I will check signal strength of transponder 29 vs the others when I get home and let you know.
> 
> FYI I have a 921 and a 510 connected to the 48" dish looking at 119 and the 6' looking at 110. I could be wrong, but I thought that I had a 7 day guide on the 501 and 510 from 119 before I put up the 6' dish to see 110. Am I mis-remembering or did the program guide on 119 change since Dec 31, 2003?


From what I know the119 satellite only has the 44 guide now. The 9 day guide is only available from satellite 110 on tp 29.

I am too new to Dish to know if there was a 7 day guide before on 119; but what I can tell you with certainty is that it is no longer there. Only the 44 guide is on 119 now.


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## Mark Lamutt

I suspect that if you went into the phone conversations that you had with the Dish tech people with your guns blazing like you did on here, they reacted by doing everything they could to get rid of you. And, keep in mind, that not everything that is known to engineering filters down to the tech support people. Especially with a newer receiver like the 522. Software updates come frequently enough that problems like this don't stay problems very long.

I'd love to be able to tell you when the next version is coming, but I don't have that information. And as for a site with a list of bugs, that's one of the reasons that we're here. Not specifically (yet) for the 522, but for some of the other receivers. Dish does not (and will never) have a site listing the current bugs in the various receivers. We're here to help the users out in getting through some of the bugs, and we're here to work with Dish in identifying the bugs so that they can get fixed.


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## Randy_B

That is definitely a bad bug to have with a Dish receiver. Over the years I have had a 7100, 7200, 501, and 510 and now have a 522 and a 721. EVERY one of these units has had a significant period of time during which the program guide did not come down correctly or failed to load. This has happened numerous times with the 721. The original DP was notorious for its corrupted EPG. So far the NBR on our 522 has worked great, now I will certainly be more cautious in monitoring it.

I think you were a bit too quick to judge him, Mark. I can absolutely believe that witschey was given bad info from Dish. That is a sad fact in their corporate history as well. I have been with Dish since '96 and have gone back and triple checked info I was given from the front and second tier CSRs because it just didn't make sense. For the most part, I don't think those folks intentionally lie (although some have), I am sure they are woefully uninformed by the folks in the back.


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## Mark Lamutt

I have no doubt that witschey was given incorrect information by the some of the people he spoke with. But, you have to admit he came in here with his guns blazing, demanding the EEPG be put on 119 for all to see, trying to mount a revolt in the name of Caribbean and Alaskan subscribers. Anyone that abrasive comes off as an immediate dish-bashing troll from the get-go.


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## witschey

Mark Lamutt said:


> I have no doubt that witschey was given incorrect information by the some of the people he spoke with. But, you have to admit he came in here with his guns blazing, demanding the EEPG be put on 119 for all to see, trying to mount a revolt in the name of Caribbean and Alaskan subscribers. Anyone that abrasive comes off as an immediate dish-bashing troll from the get-go.


Sorry if I came accross as a having my guns out when I started to discuss the topic here. I came to this board as a place of 'last resort' for me to get this issue accross, because I was told by Dish Network that those of us facing this issue were 'statisticaly insignificant' and therefore there were no plans to make the 522 work with the 44 hour guide. That the 522 could only work with the EEPG.

If you were told that your issue was 'statistically insignificant' and that Dish was not planning to do anythign about it, because it was NOT considered a BUG ( that is what I was told by the supposed Expert who called me back from Dish), would you not be upset?

If you had spent weeks talking to first and second level support and you were given all type of non-sense answers like returning your receiver to them (and you get a used refurbished receiver back), when you knew that it was NOT a receiver (but rather a software issue) issue, would you not get upset?

Anyway, the reason that I tried to rally support for this issue was because NOBODY within Dish wanted to admit there was a problem after weeks of phone calls, e-mails, etc.

I appologize if you felt I came on too strongly and I hope that his issue will be solved in the next software release, just like your souces say it will


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## Mark Lamutt

Yes, I readily admit that I would be upset. Then I'd find a way to pick up the 110 transponders that I couldn't get so that my 522 would work. But, that's me...I enjoy tweaking things to make them work better. Not everyone else does, and I recognize that. 

Hopefully this all has a happy ending for everyone once the next version is released.


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## JohnH

What signal level do you get from Tp 3 at 110 and does the signal bar confirm it is 110w? For the most part, Transponders above 21 have more signal than the ones from 21 and below.

BTW: There is not currently any transponder on 119w with enough available bandwidth to support the EEPG. The EEPG consumes more bandwidth than most SD channels in the system. Of course, they could put it there, but at the expense of PQ on some channels.

Most programming says DISH 500 or SuperDISH required.


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## Mark Lamutt

I've deleted the support people's names that were quoted in this thread at the request of Dish Network because those people were getting completely killed with emails. Please refrain from posting the specific names of people that you deal with on the phone. Even if they give you erroneous information, most of them are there trying to help you out.


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## Jim Parker

Pat A
Nice to see another Anchorage person here.  

We are wandering a bit off topic, but the problems that you see with the smaller dishes are why I upgraded to the 6' dish. I did not like the dropouts that I had with the 4' dish at 110 and the 3' dish at 119. Bad weather over the mountains quite often resulted in the loss of the signal on 110, some times for an hour or two.

My house is surrounded by trees, so I mounted the dishes on the roof, not an easy task. I did my own install, as I did not trust the local installers to get it mounted securely enough. My house is off of Klatt, only 1 block from the inlet and get some pretty strong winds at roof top level. The dish is well braced. (I'm an electrical engineer with 30 years in the construction field, so I have the experience for doing this.) If I remember right, I spent about $300 for the 6' dish and the hardware I used.

Just my 2 bits worth.


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## witschey

Mark Lamutt said:


> I've deleted the support people's names that were quoted in this thread at the request of Dish Network because those people were getting completely killed with emails. Please refrain from posting the specific names of people that you deal with on the phone. Even if they give you erroneous information, most of them are there trying to help you out.


The people I quoted told me people having this issue were 'statistically insignificant'. I provided viewers of this site with their names, so that Dish Network would find out that this issue is not so 'insignificant' but rather that their technical support people (level 1 and 2) are most likely not documenting it.

I obviously don't like the fact that you deleted their names, but I understand that if they requested that it be done, you have no choice but to do it.

I hope that whatever amount of e-mails they received proved to them that the issue is not so insignificant, and should be solved. I bet many issues do not reach Dish Network because people like me have had bad experience with 1st and 2nd level support, and a few fruitless attemps to get them to solve the issue or at the very least to get them to document the issue properly so it can be handled; they give up and do not use the official channels of Dish Network to get the issue accross. My experience is that to raise an issue to the right level, one is forced to do at least 10 phone calls, send many e-mails and so forth or it will be stuck with 1st or 2nd level support and it will be documented VERY poorly...so poorly that the software development team won't know what hte real issue is and therefore won't be able to solve it. I know my issue was documented REALLY poorly; because when the supposed 'expert' on the Dish 522 called me, he told me that he couldn't understand what the issue was based on the notes that 1st and 2nd level support gave him.

I don't remember placing the personal e-mail addresses of the people I quoted though; so I don't know how the viewers of this thread figured out their e-mail addresses from their names. Unless you are referring to the CEO and Quality e-mail addresses which are e-mail addresses that are public, and I believe every Dish Network user who wants to find out what those e-mail addresses are, can simply go to the Dish Network website and find them.


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## Mark Lamutt

They took notice when their email server crashed this afternoon...


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## larrystotler

witschey - 99% or E* subs are located in the Continental US. Alaska, Hawaii, and Porto Rico all have different guideline when it comes to retailers and installers. Since you are not one of these subs, it doesn't really apply to you. Quite frankly, I have NEVER had a problem getting any transponders so long as I have a signal from the sat. If you would like some help, please post you sig strengths on all trans on the 110, as well as your switch matrix from the chekc switch screen and the s/w version of your 522. It MAY be a bad box if it isn't getting just that 1 trans. Also, do you have the same problem on the 508? What sig strengths are you getting on it? As for E* giving a refurb, that is what their warrenty states. And, to be honest with you, we have had more luck with the refurbs in many cases since they actually fixed what was wrong with them


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## Mark Lamutt

To answer your other question, witschey, how people knew what their email addresses are, it's common knowledge what echostar's email address convention is.


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## witschey

larrystotler said:


> witschey - 99% or E* subs are located in the Continental US. Alaska, Hawaii, and Porto Rico all have different guideline when it comes to retailers and installers. Since you are not one of these subs, it doesn't really apply to you. Quite frankly, I have NEVER had a problem getting any transponders so long as I have a signal from the sat. If you would like some help, please post you sig strengths on all trans on the 110, as well as your switch matrix from the chekc switch screen and the s/w version of your 522. It MAY be a bad box if it isn't getting just that 1 trans. Also, do you have the same problem on the 508? What sig strengths are you getting on it? As for E* giving a refurb, that is what their warrenty states. And, to be honest with you, we have had more luck with the refurbs in many cases since they actually fixed what was wrong with them


Larrystotler. I appreciate your willingness to help, but I need no more help with this issue. I am 100% happy learning (AFTER starting this tread...otherwise I would have never found out) that from Mark Lamutt (whose post was originally a reply to a thread I started at DBSTalk) that:

"here's the real story about this, directly from the Dish engineers working on the 522:

There is a bug in the current 522/625 software that is keeping the timers from being defined after the 2-day guide is downloaded. This is a known issue and it is scheduled to be fixed in the next software release. For what it's worth, the 942 does not have this bug.

Once the new software has spooled, the 522 and 625 will once again work just fine and dandy with the 44 hour guide."

So, as you can see I wasn't saying anything that wasn't true. Many of you focused on the transponder issue as if that was the main issue, but it was NOT.

The main issue of this tread was that the 522 is currently only able to work with the 9 day program guide. The technical support people at Dish Network told me that it only worked with the 9 day program guide because that is the way it was designed, and that it would NOT work with the 44 hour program guide because the people affected by it were 'statistically insignificant'. So in another words they didn't want to accept that there was a bug with the working of the 522 with the 44 hour guide.

Mark Lamutt was able to clarify the issue with Dish Network and they are finally accepting that there is a BUG and that it will be fixed in the next release. For me that is reason enough to celebrate.

So I need no more troubleshooting help from you or anybody else regarding this issue. I can't provide you with the strength signal from any of the transponders of the 110 because I have simply disconnected that satelite from my system.

The software of the 522 will be a great machine (when the bugs are finally fixed) but for the time being it has too many bugs or poor programming practices built into it.

For example the reason I had to disconnect satellite 110 is because when the 522 is connected to this satellite it tries to retrieve the EEPG (9 day guide) instead of the 44 hour program guide. That's good logic, because the receiver should give the 9 day program guide preference over the 44 hour program guide...after all the 9 day program guide has more information. However since it CANT get the 9 day program guide (because of the transponder issue...which we agreed to put behind until the next software release when it is supposed to be fixed), it just keeps trying for a LONG LONG time to get the 9 day program guide without any success. It then gives up and doesn't load any program guide. A better programming logic would be to have the 522 first try to get the 9 day program guide if it is connected to the 110 satellite, but if it can't get the guide after a few seconds/minutes; then it should fetch the 44 hour program guide. However Echostar didn't seem to have thought about that, or chose not to put the 44 hour guide as a backup.

Since I DO want to have a program guide (and I am happy with the 44 hour program guide), but I won't get the EEPG with the 110 satellite and the receiver will never try to get the 44 hour guide as long as it is connected to the 110 satellite, I have decided to simply disconnect my 110 satellite and use only the 119 satellite which is the one that has all the programming I care about.

The ONLY reason I had 110 connected was because of the program guide, but if I can't get that guide on the 110 then I have NO USE what so ever for the 110 satellite, as it doesn't have any programming that I care about.

So, without the 110 connected to my system, I can't give you the signal strength info.

To clarify the 508 receiver had no problem working with the 44 hour program guide. All recurring events and automated event creation worked just fine with the 44 hour program guide. However the 508 was also unable to get tp 29 when I connected it to satellite 110.

But PLEASE PLEASE stop the discussion about my particular circumstance of not being able to access tp 29 on 110. I need no more troubleshooting help on this. Dish Network recognizes my issue as a bug and they will fix it, and that's all I care about.


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## witschey

Mark Lamutt said:


> To answer your other question, witschey, how people knew what their email addresses are, it's common knowledge what echostar's email address convention is.


I am sorry to hear that the email servers of Dish Network crashed due to the amount of e-mails they received in reaction to this tread. It was never my intention to cause that to happen. I never ever thought they would get SO MANY reactions as to cause that to happen.

I did expect some people to write to them and tell them that they were also having the same issue, just to show Dish Network that the issue was not so 'statistically insignificant' as I had been told by that guy whose name you don't want mentioned here. I also wanted Dish to fix the 44 hour problem with the 522 receiver.

If you can, please tell Dish Network that I am sorry to have caused their email server to crash. Tell them that it wasn't my objective, but that I wanted to make the point that hte issue was not insignificant and needed to be recognized as a bug and fixed. Tell them that if that guy who can not be named had been honest on the issue from the start, there would have been no need for me to discuss the topic on the bullentin boards and ask viewers to contact Dish Network.


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## larrystotler

Whatever. Personally, I would be interesting in fixing the problem with the 110. But it's your system and your choice. Good luck.


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## SimpleSimon

I posted in his thread over at satguys yesterday (Monday) - from there it sounded like his problem may have been a marginal LOS issue - you know, the kind that are solved my moving the dish 6".

Who knows what all this falderkarb is really about, tho.


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## larrystotler

Oh well. Time to help someone who actually needs it.


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## boylehome

Might have been a little abrasive but witschey got some action! There once was a person who stuck a stick in a tree hole and when asked his reply was, "me just checking for bees." :lol:


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## Redrhino

SimpleSimon said:


> I posted in his thread over at satguys yesterday (Monday) - from there it sounded like his problem may have been a marginal LOS issue - you know, the kind that are solved my moving the dish 6".
> 
> Who knows what all this falderkarb is really about, tho.


First, what the hell is falderkarb? My web search on the word returned only one hit, a post of yours in dbstalk ...

I suspect that Witschey won't be back again but I am still troubled and wondering about this knife-edge attenuation issue. What could cause such a drop off in signal on selected transponders by such a small move?

Redrhino


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## witschey

Redrhino said:


> I suspect that Witschey won't be back again but I am still troubled and wondering about this knife-edge attenuation issue. What could cause such a drop off in signal on selected transponders by such a small move?
> 
> Redrhino


You suspected wrong. I am back!

Despite my hessitation to start troubleshooting the issue again (I had invested so much time already that I was and I AM fed up with the issue).

I followed the advise given. I moved the dish positioning a bit (in both horizontal and vertical position) and to my surprise I am now able to pickup all transponders, and I am therefore also able to pickup the EEPG. I guess the problem had to do with the fact that I was receiving the signal from Echostar 8 ( tp 1 to 21), but NOT the signal of Echostar 6 (tp 2 to 29).

I have to say that TP 22 to 29 are much WEAKER than TP 1 to 21, which provably has something to do with the fact that TP 1 to 21 are on one Echostar 8, and TP 22 to 29 on Echostar 6. I don't know why Echostar 6 is received with less power, after all both of those satellites are supposed to have 250 watts per transponder.

But anyway, at least I can now get the EEPG and hopefully with this guide the receiver's recurring events and NBR will work properly.

Please NOTE that this thread started because I said that the Dish 522 would NOT work without the EEPG (9 day Guide). That statement is still 100% correct TODAY as it was when the thread first started. Dish Network has a BUG in the 522 that prevents recurring events, NBR, etc. on the 522 receiver from working properly with the 44 hour guide. So nothing has changed. Mark L. mentioned in a previous post that Dish Network engineering recognizes that as a bug and that it would be solved in the next software release. Hopefully it will.

Thanks to all for the tips in helping me get the EEPG to work on my 522 receiver. Now the task remains for Dish Network to fix their software to get it to work with the 44 hour guide.


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## Mark Lamutt

Glad you were able to tweak your situation there witschey to get it to work. So, what's your signal strength like on 110 TR29 now?


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## witschey

Mark Lamutt said:


> Glad you were able to tweak your situation there witschey to get it to work. So, what's your signal strength like on 110 TR29 now?


TR29 has a weak signal. It gives me 55 in the early morning; about 40 right now. The transponders that are on echostar 8 guive me at about 90.


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## larrystotler

I've NEVER seen that much of a difference in signal on the same location. Do you have a tree in the way? Does the sig strength dance when the wind blows?


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## Mark Lamutt

Yeah, neither have I, but he did say he had tree problems. Although how he's got a clear shot at 119 past the trees that block 110 is beyond me. Must wreak havoc when the wind blows.


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## astrotrf

Redrhino said:


> First, what the hell is falderkarb? My web search on the word returned only one hit, a post of yours in dbstalk ...
> 
> I suspect that Witschey won't be back again ...


Just a typo - try spelling it as "felderkarb" and then go watch some BattleStar Galactica ...

I have to say that I re-read Witschey's postings after Mark's "guns blazing" comment and intimation that he got bad answers because of his belligerence, and I must completely disagree. I did not find his tone overly disagreeable, and I have no problem with his suggestion to start a grass-roots campaign to get E* to move the guide. I don't view that as some kind of unjustified Dish-bashing, as Mark seems to.

Terry


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## Redrhino

astrotrf said:


> Just a typo - try spelling it as "felderkarb" and then go watch some BattleStar Galactica ...


Once I've gone thru the 400 hours backlogged on my TiVos I'll be sure to get right on it 



> I have to say that I re-read Witschey's postings after Mark's "guns blazing" comment and intimation that he got bad answers because of his belligerence, and I must completely disagree. I did not find his tone overly disagreeable, and I have no problem with his suggestion to start a grass-roots campaign to get E* to move the guide. I don't view that as some kind of unjustified Dish-bashing, as Mark seems to.


I am glad that Witschey got things to work ... still don't know or care exactly where he lives. However it did seem to me that he was complaining that he wasn't getting a signal on transponders he wanted to get but that he was focused on getting E* to change so that he wouldn't have to do some fiddling with his setup.

Perhaps the mountain will go to Mohammed, but I doubt that E* will swap signal between satellites just because he and people in his situation aren't getting EEPG. While some in Alaska would get EEPG and appreciate the change there would certainly be others, perhaps many others, who would be losing programming. E* may have considered the issue and decided that EEPG should be on 110.

There is the other issue of whether E* should rewrite the code for this DVR. Certainly if the basic DVR functions won't work without EEPG, it is a mistake and should be corrected. However, it seemed to me to be an odd place to focus one's efforts.

In any case, it is nice that things are far better than before for Witschey.

Redrhino


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## larrystotler

Yeah, he didn't come on as bad as those guys whining about the 921 and wanting to sue E* about it.


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## Nick

In my years of experience with Dish tech support, all anomalies can be categorized as either a "bug", a "feature", or "non-existent"

If it is a "bug", it _can_ be fixed, but it may not be within your desired time frame.

If it is a "feature", it may not be fixed, but you will not be charged extra.

If it is "non-existent", it will not be dealt with unless and until it is elevated to a "bug" or a "feature".

In general, customer service in this country is rapidly going to Hell or India in a well-woven hand-basket.


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## Bill R

Nick said:


> In general, customer service in this country is rapidly going to Hell or India in a well-woven hand-basket.


Yes, it sure has and I fear that it is only going to get worse because that is what people are willing to put up with. More people need to complain to "higher-ups" if they receive poor service and _maybe_ something will be done about it.


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## Randy_B

Not the place for this discussion, but according to Business 2.0 magazine, more work was insourced into the US than outsourced. Nearly 20% more.


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## SimpleSimon

Well, anyway, "You're welcome" for the solution. 

Remember to keep that one in your bag of tricks, guys.


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## Michael P

larrystotler said:


> I've NEVER seen that much of a difference in signal on the same location. Do you have a tree in the way? Does the sig strength dance when the wind blows?


This sounds like an odd/even problem (i.e. stronger signal on all even TP's). My first year as an E* customer I expreienced "snow fade" for the first time (caused by wet snow covering the dish - for those of you not in such a climate only wet snow kills the signal, the drier powerdy snow is more transparent). As the snow melted it slid downward off the dish. Only half the channels came back on. I observed that the snow still covered the lower portion of the dish, hence blocking one polorization (I forgot which one for sure, but for conversation sake let's say the odd TP's came back on first). Later experimenting in the summer revealed that blocking the top part of the dish only affected odd TP's and visa-versa for the lower portion of the dish. This was back in the days of 119 only E* 1 & 2. So if his odd TP's are weaker there may be a distant obstruction to affecting only the top or bottom portion of the dish.


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## garypen

Randy_B said:


> Not the place for this discussion, but according to Business 2.0 magazine, more work was insourced into the US than outsourced. Nearly 20% more.


Uh. Yeah. Sure.


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