# What if Dishnetwork provided local "EPG only" for a buck as a separate service?



## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

What if Dishnetwork could provide local guide info only as another separate service? Perhaps call it local "*EPG only*" for a buck.

Example for a $1 a month turn on the DMA (guide info only) of your choice. If you pick up channels from other cities in addition to your own you could also buy the EPG data those DMAs as well (for a dollar each).

1) *(non-sub)* I would subscribe for "EPG only" service for a $1 per DMA.
2) *(sub)* I would cancel my existing locals and get "EPG only" instead.
3) *(sub) * I would still keep my locals but would add "EPG only" for another DMA.
4) *(sub) * I like my dish locals channels and don't need any more.
5) *(non-sub)* No thank you, I am not interested in paying for any guide data.

*UPDATE:* How "EPG only" might help you.
This feature would be mainly for non-subscribers who don't need the local channels because they're already getting them free with a TV antenna but would be willing to pay a dollar more a month just for the guide info.

However people who subscribe to local may also benefit in two ways. *ONE:* If they're already getting those channels with an antenna they could reduce their cost by selecting the "EPG only" option and give up their local channels. *TWO:* If they're also receiving distant channels which they don't have guide info they could expand thier guide using this method. Normally dish will not allow (for legal reasons) subscription to two or more DMAs but they might consider selling just the guide data.

In either case the local channels will display in two areas of the guide. As red in the 7XXX-9XXX area (All-Chan mode) and as blue in the digital local region  of the guide assuming if you have channels there to map it (wouldn't make much sense to order them otherwise).

Channel mapping would be automatic for digital stations because of PSIP. 
However analog would require the user to correctly identify and label the channels with the station's call letters. You can use the call letters in the red area of the guide as a referrence. _Normally with real locals dish mirrors their channels to the known channel local slots however since you're providing the actual channels then ID's are required for proper mapping._

Please be aware that *dish has never agreed to provide "EPG only" service * however if they discoved a market for it they might consider it.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

I would pay a nominal fee for this service IF and ONLY IF it worked for ALL local channels. My temporary "free" subscription only works on 5 of 9 local digitals (all stations' guide data appears in the 8xxx series, but only five stations' data maps down to the digitals).

Brad


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Bradtothebone said:


> I would pay a nominal fee for this service IF and ONLY IF it worked for ALL local channels. My temporary "free" subscription only works on 5 of 9 local digitals (all stations' guide data appears in the 8xxx series, but only five stations' data maps down to the digitals).
> 
> Brad


My guess is that it would be the same as you're getting now with free locals unless they secretly already have that extra info for the sub-channels. Some cities are getting complete info for all sub-channels but most are just getting the info for the analog counterparts.

The "EPG only" that I envisioned would pertain to the same locals but not actually providing the channels themselves. Since they are only providing the information I believe the DMA rules (only one DMA) shouldn't apply.

I expect in the future the guide list will grow especially after analog stations are replaced with digital ones and assuming the must carry rule is still in effect.

The beauty of this service is that both subscribers and non-subscribers can benefit from having extra cities in their lineup. Non-scribing DMA would show up as red in the 7XXX-9XXX area but blue in the local area  allowing you to setup program events for you free digital channels.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

We're already paying an extra $4.98 for the "privilege" of using the DVR we *bought and paid for*. That fee should include all the features including the EPG for every received channel. How the data populates the EPG (PSIP or off the satellite) is inconsequential as long as the data is *correct and complete!*

We know that it's possible, for the brief time I had 215 I had EPG data for the NBC affilliate from Pittsburgh! All they need to do now is move the Superdish local's EPG to a "core" slot so that all stations we can receive OTA get into the guide (Youngstown, in my case).


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> We're already paying an extra $4.98 for the "privilege" of using the DVR we *bought and paid for*. That fee should include all the features including the EPG for every received channel. How the data populates the EPG (PSIP or off the satellite) is inconsequential as long as the data is *correct and complete!*
> 
> We know that it's possible, for the brief time I had 215 I had EPG data for the NBC affilliate from Pittsburgh! All they need to do now is move the Superdish local's EPG to a "core" slot so that all stations we can receive OTA get into the guide (Youngstown, in my case).


The $4.98 DVR fee does not pertain to local guide info and also I have a separate thread for that issue.

Yes, L215 did turn on local guide data for non-subscribers but dishnetwork realized their error and made L216 which was even a bigger mistake because now they have to credit the non-subscriber for enabling their locals. They'll come out with L217 real soon but it obvious now that dish doesn't want to give guide data away for free.

I started this thread because some people are willing to compremise, they want the guide info but don't want to pay $5 for channels they don't need.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

jergenf said:


> My guess is that it would be the same as you're getting now with free locals unless they secretly already have that extra info for the sub-channels. Some cities are getting complete info for all sub-channels but most are just getting the info for the analog counterparts.


I don't even care about subchannels (except maybe KCPT19-2, which is the mirror for the local PBS programming). I just want all the xx-01's to work right before I'll pay a dime.

Brad


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Bradtothebone said:


> I don't even care about subchannels (except maybe KCPT19-2, which is the mirror for the local PBS programming). I just want all the xx-01's to work right before I'll pay a dime.
> 
> Brad


Then perhaps some of the missing channels are on a different satellite or an outside DMA situation. In theory you should be getting every major network for your city. In my case all the "XXX-01" have been restored except guide info for my PBS is XXX-04 not XXX-01 which is accurate.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

jergenf said:


> Then perhaps some of the missing channels are on a different satellite or an outside DMA situation. In theory you should be getting every major network for your city. In my case all the "XXX-01" have been restored except guide info for my PBS is XXX-04 not XXX-01 which is accurate.


All the KC, MO locals are on 119 (according to you, jergenf, from another thread!). I don't receive any out-of-DMA digitals.

Mark, should I report this as a bug? Is anyone else out there seeing some, but not all, of their LIL guide data mapped down to the xx-01 digitals? 

Brad


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## socceteer (Apr 22, 2005)

I don't like any of the options. You do not have the option to get free OTA guide if you pay for locals. This is what I prefer


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Brad - I'm primarily seeing lack of guide data for PBS stations, although I do know of some cases around the country that guide data is not getting mapped over correctly.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

socceteer said:


> I don't like any of the options. You do not have the option to get free OTA guide if you pay for locals. This is what I prefer


If you subscribe to locals then the EPG is already included at no additional charge for your DMA. 
That would be option 4.
4) I like my dish locals channels and don't need any more.

Unless you want to expand your guide to include another outside DMA then that's option 3.
3) I would still keep my locals but would add "EPG only" for another DMA.

Also note that this implies that your getting outside DMA channels via antenna as you can't subscribe to both.

Dish won't give anything away for free that's why many are paying $5 for locals when they already pickup thoses channels for free. Most think that's too high for guide data.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Mark- FYI
Jacksonville, FL WJCT PBS has 4 subchannels that receive TMS guide data correctly now on 3 of the 4 subs. It seems that the -2 is still running inaccurate about 75% of the time. The others are pretty accurate. This is by the TMS service that is displayed on my HDTIVO. I had reported some time back that this station was nearly 100% inaccurate on the DT service but not anymore. I believe the WJCT programming dept is finnally getting their act together for their DT channels.

When I was at L215, only the -1 would show up on the 921 for this same station and it was as accurate as the HDTIVO. Of course, I nolonger get any OTA since L216 on the 921. I cancelled my AEP subscription because of it. BTW thank you for offering to do what you were doing for others on the L216 screwup but at this time I really don't care to be bothered with it. Except for the Voom channels, I have moved on to the bug free world of D* HDTIVO.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2005)

I want to see the PSIP data broadcast by the stations. If E* can't do that because of a technical reason, just GIVE me the OTA PG. I (already) pay enough fees that are not directly related to watching a video program.

DVR fee
Extra receiver fee

Enough already.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

gpflepsen said:


> I want to see the PSIP data broadcast by the stations. If E* can't do that because of a technical reason, just GIVE me the OTA PG. I (already) pay enough fees that are not directly related to watching a video program.
> 
> DVR fee
> Extra receiver fee
> ...


I agree with you but guide data using PSIP is a lost cause. At least with the 921 because they're had years to correct it but refuse to even discuse it. Also Dish does not want to give local EPG to non-subscribers so I thought this solution might be a compromise.

Please be aware that *dish has never agreed to provide "EPG only" service * however if they discoved a market for it they might consider it.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

There should be no charge for "EPG only" as long as the 811 subs are getting it for free!

We should not be forced to purchase the LIL's, as (at least in my case) the PQ is generally substandard. It is obvious to me that many of the Cleveland stations are being picked-up OTA at the "POP". I can see faint ghosts, especially when white text is used. There is also posterization when images fade to black. I did an A/B compairison with the OTA digital pictures of the same channels, viewed in SD out of the S-Video jack. The LIL's PQ gets a B grade (Sky Angel's overcompressed service gets a C grade). So LIL's are not the worst PQ, but they are far from the high standard that the Premiums get nor are they as good as the "basic" channels.

Don't get me wrong, LIL's serve a purpose. I'd gladly take the faint ghosts and posteriation over what a rural cable system delivers if that was the only way I could see my locals. However I don't live in the outskirts of the DMA, I can get kick-but analog pictures as well as all the digital signals OTA here in the Cleveland antenna farm.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

jergenf said:


> The $4.98 DVR fee does not pertain to local guide info ...


Perhaps not directly, but it's at least implied. One of the main features of DVR is the ability to create a timer from the guide.

I settled for #5 because I didn't see my preferred answer:
6) I expect Dish to provide the same level of service as given to the 811 and to comply with the FCC's intent for OTA receivers to have guide data for free broadcasts.

People complain about fees but then over 42% (so far) have expressed a willingness to pay extra for the same thing 811 users get without having to cave in to extortion or pay a DVR fee.


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## KCMike (Dec 20, 2004)

Bradtothebone said:


> All the KC, MO locals are on 119 (according to you, jergenf, from another thread!). I don't receive any out-of-DMA digitals.
> 
> Mark, should I report this as a bug? Is anyone else out there seeing some, but not all, of their LIL guide data mapped down to the xx-01 digitals?
> 
> Brad


Brad,
Same here. I am also in KC. I posted a more detailed post in the OTA guide problems data collection thread.

Mike


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## lpickup (Jul 12, 2005)

BobaBird said:


> ...People complain about fees but then over 42% (so far) have expressed a willingness to pay extra for the same thing 811 users get without having to cave in to extortion or pay a DVR fee.


As one of the 42%, and yes, an all-around cheap-skate, let me justify my willingness: if I am paying a fee for something tangible and desirable (in this case real data coming to me that provides me with informative details about programming), then yes, I feel a nominal fee is in order.

Having said that, I don't think it's fair that the fee is not applied consistently, and as I've said before, I also feel that since this data is in a form advertising for the stations, that they should heavily subsidize the cost.

 ...Lance


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

BobaBird said:


> Perhaps not directly, but it's at least implied. One of the main features of DVR is the ability to create a timer from the guide.
> 
> I settled for #5 because I didn't see my preferred answer:
> 6) I expect Dish to provide the same level of service as given to the 811 and to comply with the FCC's intent for OTA receivers to have guide data for free broadcasts.
> ...


Echostar and their customers are at a stalemate.
*Echostar says:* If you want guide info simply order the locals that we provide that's why we have them.
*Customers say:* It's unfair that you're not providing guide for free. You're ignoring FCC with PSIP policy, you're treating people differently depending on the receiver model they have, you already have this info in your data stream so why not display it in the high portion of the guide as red.

Since neither side will budge I wanted to gather info on a theoretical compromise solution. 
This solution can reduce cost for those subscribing to unnecessary locals and allow the non-subscribers to buy local guide at a reasonable cost.

PS: If you feel that a $1/month is too much to pay then that's good information. Choice 5 is the best fit.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

$1 *is* too much to pay as long as the 811 gets the same data for $0!
End of argument


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## lazaruspup (Mar 18, 2005)

They already do this, but they charge you $5, not $1. Anyone who thinks they will open up an option to give you guide data and lose all that revenue from people who MUST have guide data and are paying for locals to get it... you're nuts. DISH will push this issue as long as they can because they are not going to drop ARPU just because it would be easier and cheaper for a customer. They are not that company. They know they have the subs by the you know whats on this issue.


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## cleblanc (Dec 18, 2003)

lazaruspup said:


> They already do this, but they charge you $5, not $1.


Why do I keep seeing that the local channels are $5? I am paying $5.99 for the Hartford locals. So this is $6/month I am giving Dish just to supply the OTA guide data. I am guessing that some people get the locals for $5 depending on a package that they have. But the fee is $6.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Markets without a full complement of major networks pay a discounted rate. Markets with a plethora of channels (such as NY/LA) pay the same rate as markets with the minimum of ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX/PBS.

Markets may be missing a major network for 2 reasons: 1.) no station exists that carries that network, "significantly viewed" chanels may fill that void. or 2.) E* has not come to terms with a station owner for retransmision.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

lazaruspup said:


> They already do this, but they charge you $5, not $1. Anyone who thinks they will open up an option to give you guide data and lose all that revenue from people who MUST have guide data and are paying for locals to get it... you're nuts. DISH will push this issue as long as they can because they are not going to drop ARPU just because it would be easier and cheaper for a customer. They are not that company. They know they have the subs by the you know whats on this issue.


Your right that if they incorporated "EPG only" dish could loose money from subscribers that are paying full price for locals that they only need the guide info on. But they could increase revenue buying selling outside DMA info because by law they can't supply multiple DMA to customers. Also some of the customers that are refusing to pay for locals might be willing to fork over a buck in the end. I guess we need to know how many subscribers are actually getting all their OTA locals for free and just paying just dish for guide privileges. If that's a major percentage then dishnetwork will never consider such a service. The purpose of this poll is to get a consenses.

Personally I feel that this info should be free to non-subs because the hardware allows for free reception and free should mean free. Also angry that PSIP method isn't being utilized and guide policy seems to vary by model you have. And to put salt on the wound there's a $5 DVR fee which really is a DVR fine. But if push comes to shove I might pay a dollar if all the guide info was mapped to my digital OTA section but I wouldn't be that happy about it either.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Would like to give an example of how "EPG only" could turn a profit for dishnetwork.

A particular neighborhood has 100 customers
10 percent pay $5 for locals while 90 do not subscribe.

10 X 5 = 50 (from subs)
90 X 0 = 0 (from non-subs)
Total from neighborhood = $50

Now after "EPG only" let's say 50 percent of subscribers downgrade to EPG only
and 33 percent of non-subscribers upgrade to EPG only.

5 X 5 = 25 (from subs that kept locals)
5 X 1 = 5 (from subs that downgraded)
30 x 1 = 30 (from non-subs that upgraded)
60 X 0 = 0 (from non-subs that didn't)
Total from neighborhood = $60


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Please don't give E* any ideas! They already have put us through numerous buggy software "upgrades". Now you want to reward them with a buck for the guide. 

The least-buggy s/w upgrade was L2.15 and that lasted less than 1 month  before it was replaced with the infamous L2.16.

If the next s/w upgrade causes any more problems for me, I'm redy to give up on the 921 and get an 811. That will save me the DVR fee and give me the free OTA guide data I want.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Michael P said:


> The least-buggy s/w upgrade was L2.15 and that lasted less than 1 month  before it was replaced with the infamous L2.16.


You wouldn't be saying that if your locals were in the 7000s channel range.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> Please don't give E* any ideas! They already have put us through numerous buggy software "upgrades". Now you want to reward them with a buck for the guide.
> 
> The least-buggy s/w upgrade was L2.15 and that lasted less than 1 month  before it was replaced with the infamous L2.16.
> 
> If the next s/w upgrade causes any more problems for me, I'm redy to give up on the 921 and get an 811. That will save me the DVR fee and give me the free OTA guide data I want.


Personally as I stated I would want the guide for free. With L215 I got the guide only in the 76XX range but still felt rewarded. But indian giver dish revealled thier true colors with L216 and they want us to pay. Believe it or not many customers support dish and gladly pay $5 just for guide data with makes it only harder for non-subs that want it free.

EPG only is just a hyperthetical perposal. Just want to get a consenses. Whether people like it or hate it, there's valuable information gained from everyone's input.

I wouldn't trade me 921 for an 811 because I got spoiled with 2 tuners and the ablilty to record in full HD. Wait and see what the next mpeg4 receivers provide. Most likely faster CPUs, bigger hard drives, even more program storage for mpeg4 programs and more features.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Actually some of the OOM OTA's I can receive are in the 7000 range (via Superdish 121).


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> Actually some of the OOM OTA's I can receive are in the 7000 range (via Superdish 121).


Are you still getting (with L216) outside DMA guide (red) data in the 7000s? Were you also getting them back in L215. If you are getting free locals for a month then give us an update after you cancel them.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

jergenf said:


> But they could increase revenue buying selling outside DMA info because by law they can't supply multiple DMA to customers.


Dish isn't supplying the OOM stations, they are being received free OTA. IIRC, the 811 gets guide info for those too. Guide data should not be tied to whether Dish is allowed to sell you the station or whether you have a dish to receive it. You may have been thinking of the old law that prevented satellite providers from delivering significantly viewed stations. The new law changes that, we're just waiting for the details to be hashed out.

I'm sure many of the people who pay $6 for LIL do it not only for the OTA guide but also to be able to record 2 (921) or 3 (942) LILs at once. One in HD, the other in sub-SD. Thursdays are gonna be tough this fall with Joey/W&G, Alias, Smallville and The OC all on at 7/8.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

BobaBird said:


> Dish isn't supplying the OOM stations, they are being received free OTA. IIRC, the 811 gets guide info for those too. Guide data should not be tied to whether Dish is allowed to sell you the station or whether you have a dish.


By OOM I meant other DMAs, for example if you live in Rochester dish won't sell you Buffalo. However with a good antenna Buffalo OTAs are possible. With "EPG only" they should be able to sell just the guide info for other cities like Buffalo, Syracuse and Watertown (if they have those). When "MichaelP" referred to OOM I think he meant just the guide info in red in the 7000 area. 
Also I believe you do need the proper dish to get guide info for example the L216 bug caused the Rochester folks to loose their digital OTAs. They could fix the problem by turning on locals but you need the 121 sat or so I was told. I was one of the lucky ones because I had superdish. EPG only may not be for everyone if it requires additional dishes.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

That's also what I meant by OOM (out of market).

The 44-hour EPG is available at each slot. The only source of the 9-day EEPG is 110 so it must include info for all the slots. You don't need the proper dish to _get_ the guide data but the receiver only displays info for those channels you can see. I believe the fix for the problem is in the software. OTA guide info is linked to LIL guide info which is displayed only if you have the right dish to receive the LIL. I'm saying that EPG mapping to the OTA channel should not and does not need to be linked to the ability to receive LIL. It also doesn't require a DMA check because everyone is allowed to view any OTA broadcast they can receive directly.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Quick question: What does LIL mean?


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

jergenf said:


> Quick question: What does LIL mean?


Forumspeak for Local Into Local. It's the reception of your local Broadcast Stations via a paid service such as the $5.98 E* service. In other words, you get the signal via the satellite feed, not via the local broadcast tower. In addition, the signal usually mimicks the station's analog broadcast but that may and will be changing in the future to their digital as analog NTSC is shut down. It also is said that the signal is of lessor quality because of additional compression and other signal processing. Your mileage may vary if your local signal is not good. That about covers what is meant by LIL.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

BobaBird said:


> That's also what I meant by OOM (out of market).
> 
> The 44-hour EPG is available at each slot. The only source of the 9-day EEPG is 110 so it must include info for all the slots. You don't need the proper dish to _get_ the guide data but the receiver only displays info for those channels you can see. I believe the fix for the problem is in the software. OTA guide info is linked to LIL guide info which is displayed only if you have the right dish to receive the LIL. I'm saying that EPG mapping to the OTA channel should not and does not need to be linked to the ability to receive LIL. It also doesn't require a DMA check because everyone is allowed to view any OTA broadcast they can receive directly.


If I understand correctly these events occurred during L215 and L216. Backround Rochester requires 121 sat for LIL and I am a non-subscriber.

After L215 the 76XX channels appearred (in red) from sat 110 but because I have superdish 121. I my case this didn't happen but many others reported actual guide data mapped to their digital OTAs even though their LIL was red. Also I assume if they didn't have superdish they didn't see any 76XX channels and also wouldn't have data mapped to OTAs.

After L216 the 76XX channels disappearred and with it the rights to remap to the digital OTA. However due to the bug loosing rights to remap meant that the digital OTA channel was no longer valid thus preventing it from appearing in the guide. Temporary subscribtion granted the priviledges back.

The process is 110 sat provides all guide data for entire 9 days. If you have both the proper satellite for your LIL and granted permissions to LIL then the receiver will perform guide data remap from LIL to OTA. You can have (red) LIL without permissions as L215 demostrated if you have the sat for it.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

jergenf said:


> Are you still getting (with L216) outside DMA guide (red) data in the 7000s? Were you also getting them back in L215. If you are getting free locals for a month then give us an update after you cancel them.


The only OOM guide data I received via 215 was for WPXI-DT 011-01 from Pittsburgh. Unfortunately my HD got corrupted and "repaired itself" (see: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=44448 ), so I lost the scanned PSIP data for WPXI. I moved at the time 215 spooled, WPXI was "captured" at my old home and I have not been able to catch it again at the new home. I'm using a Silver Sensor which is an indoor antenna. I belileve alumiunum siding adversly affects RF, so I'm limited to directions where I have windows to aim the "SS".

I also get Youngstown OTA's both at the old house and the new. I never saw guide data for either WFMJ or WYTV (a 3rd station WKBN has yet to turn on their digital signal). These stations are on the 7000 range on superdish 121.

I am getting the "free locals" and am about to cancel them.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

It appears rather close *out of 64 * people *31* would go* for "EPG only"* while *33* would *not*.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Im for "EPG only", only if it's FREE. The DVR fee should cover the "expense" of having the OTA guide data.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> Im for "EPG only", only if it's FREE. The DVR fee should cover the "expense" of having the OTA guide data.


Personally I agree with you and feel they should allow free guide, at least in the high area of the guide in red. But DN buys the guide info from Tribune and stands behind their business decision to only provide it to subscribers.

The "EPG only" is a hypothetical compromise to possibly please more customers and allow DN to stabilize their cost.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

jergenf said:


> Personally I agree with you and feel they should allow free guide, at least in the high area of the guide in red. But DN buys the guide info from Tribune and stands behind their business decision to only provide it to subscribers.
> 
> The "EPG only" is a hypothetical compromise to possibly please more customers and allow DN to stabilize their cost.


If they needed to "stabilize their cost" then why are they giving 811 owners the OTA guide for no extra cost?

Yes I might pay $1, if they would drop the $4.98 "DVR" fee. A fee for this, a charge for that. Sheeeh, who's the pig now?


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> If they needed to "stabilize their cost" then why are they giving 811 owners the OTA guide for no extra cost?


I don't know why 811 owners are not placed in the same boat. My theory is maybe it has something to do with 9 day versus 44 hour guide. But if the info is the same info from Tribune then I'm even more confused.



Michael P said:


> Yes I might pay $1, if they would drop the $4.98 "DVR" fee. A fee for this, a charge for that. Sheeeh, who's the pig now?


The DVR fee (more like DVR fine) is completely unfair. More so than the guide policy. I have a separate thread on this issue. I doubt that DN even knows why they charging it.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

I'd take a free 44 hr. guide for the OTA locals in a heartbeat!

If they want to charge us for guide data they better:

1.)Give us the correct data, including subchannels
2.)Include data for out-of-market and channels not carried in LIL's

The only way to do this is with PSIP, which would be free, since they should not charge us for something that they did not supply.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

jergenf said:


> Would like to give an example of how "EPG only" could turn a profit for dishnetwork.
> 
> A particular neighborhood has 100 customers
> 10 percent pay $5 for locals while 90 do not subscribe.
> ...


About a third would upgrade to EPG only. Less then 16 pecent would downgrade their locals to EPG only. And a little over half wouldn't buy into it at all. Based on this as a model, EPG only would produce more profits than losses.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> I'd take a free 44 hr. guide for the OTA locals in a heartbeat!.


The 921's software requires the 9 day guide not the 3 day one.


Michael P said:


> 1.)Give us the correct data, including subchannels.


This would be the same as the LIL they're selling now. Most cities don't include subchannels but I imagine in the future after analog stations end broadcast then the remaining digitals would fall under the "must carry" rule.


Michael P said:


> 2.)Include data for out-of-market and channels not carried in LIL's.


If "EPG only" existed you could buy any city you want at a buck a pop.


Michael P said:


> The only way to do this is with PSIP, which would be free, since they should not charge us for something that they did not supply.


Personally I'm all for PSIP but many stations are not providing the data they should.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

> _Quote:
> Originally Posted by Michael P
> 2.)Include data for out-of-market and channels not carried in LIL's. _
> 
> If "EPG only" existed you could buy any city you want at a buck a pop.


What I meant by channels not carried in LIL's was channels that E* does not carry in my DMA, such as the local PAX and TBN stations (the local PAX deviates fromthe national feed on E* and the local TBN is 4 SD subchannels carrying networks E* had to drop due the "Dominion suit" (Church Channel & JCTV). Where would the guide data come for these?


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> What I meant by channels not carried in LIL's was channels that E* does not carry in my DMA, such as the local PAX and TBN stations (the local PAX deviates fromthe national feed on E* and the local TBN is 4 SD subchannels carrying networks E* had to drop due the "Dominion suit" (Church Channel & JCTV). Where would the guide data come for these?


Thanks for the clearification and you're right DN is only required to provide major networks under the must carry rule meaning many low power stations, independant, religious, educational channels are left out. If "EPG only" existed I imagine it would mirror what channels they are providing with the present locals.

However since they're buying guide information from "TV Guide (Tribune)" there's always the possibility that they could expand the local lineups to include more channels for all local areas. After all it's only information and it only applies to the 9 day guide which just DVRs are using so longer download times are not a real issue.

So the answer is if Tribune has the information for full locals and DN was providing extended guide as a separate service then subchannels and other minor stations could be included. Meaning if PSIP identifies the channel then automapping the matching guide info could occur. And if it's an analog station and you enter the correct call letters and channel number then guide mapping could occur as well.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

jergenf said:


> Thanks for the clearification and you're right DN is only required to provide major networks under the must carry rule meaning many low power stations, independant, religious, educational channels are left out. If "EPG only" existed I imagine it would mirror what channels they are providing with the present locals.
> ...


Quite wrong. Read SHIVA (or whatever the correct name is).

But I believe they are not required to carry stations that only carry a national feed with no local content, e.g. PAX.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

tnsprin said:


> Quite wrong. Read SHIVA (or whatever the correct name is).
> 
> But I believe they are not required to carry stations that only carry a national feed with no local content, e.g. PAX.


Could you elaborate on your explanation a bit. My thoughts on the "must carry" rule was all major networks (ie. CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, PBS, UPN, WB) and any minor stations from a given DMA are optional. I've seen with some major cities DN offering Spanish, additional PBS, and on occasions Religious and Independent. 
In Rochester NY DishNetwork only offers 5 out of 10 stations (ie, UPN {a low power station} and PAX are omitted)


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

jergenf said:


> Could you elaborate on your explanation a bit. My thoughts on the "must carry" rule was all major networks (ie. CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, PBS, UPN, WB) and any minor stations from a given DMA are optional. I've seen with some major cities DN offering Spanish, additional PBS, and on occasions Religious and Independent.
> In Rochester NY DishNetwork only offers 5 out of 10 stations (ie, UPN {a low power station} and PAX are omitted)


I am not sure of the exact rule, but they had to ask those minor stations if they wanted to be carried. If those stations said yes and did not require a fee (or was it unreasonable fee) and those channels had some local content, they were required (not optional) to carry them. I think low power stations can also be optional. The bill is long and the actuall rules the FCC issued based on it are also complicated.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

I would assume when analog stations end broardcast then the "must carry rule" would pertain to all digital stations which would mean all subchannels would be included in the LiL package.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

As of now, there is no "multicast must-carry" rule, although the broadcasters are fighting that tooth-and-nail. I, for one, hope this never happens, as I believe that subchannel content WILL be carried by cable and/or satellite if it is "compelling." If it's a bunch of shopping channels (especially ones that are already on other channels!), I say "thumbs-down!"

Brad


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

I'm really thinking of PBS as there is different programming on them. Most major networks don't seem to be doing much multicasting except for PBS.
I have a local NBC station that just has 24hrs of weather info on its second subchannel so guide data for that one isn't really necessary however I would want the channel included if I couldn't pick it up myself. But overall I'm in favor of the "multicast must carry rule" and believe it will be passed.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

*This poll is closed and here's the final results:*
Starting out with *77* customers from this poll
in which *47* where non-sub and *30* are subs to LiLs.

The initial state based on LiL @ $5 is:

30 X 5 = 150 (subs to local)
47 X 0 = 0 (non-subs to locals)
Total from poll = *$150*

After *EPG only* based on people from this poll the results are:

14 X 5 = 70 (from subs that kept locals)
11 X 1 = 11 (from subs that downgraded)
5 X 6 = 30 (from subs that upgraded to another DMA)
20 x 1 = 20 (from non-subs that upgraded)
27 X 0 = 0 (from non-subs that didn't)
Total from poll after EPG only = *$131*

EPG only produced a loss of *$19 * for dishnetwork 

_*Using a recalculation method where locals cost $6 instead of $5*_

Let's try it again.

The initial state based on LiL @ $6 is:

30 X 6 = 180 (subs to local)
47 X 0 = 0 (non-subs to locals)
Total from poll = *$180*

After *EPG only* based on people from this poll the results are:

14 X 6 = 84 (from subs that kept locals)
11 X 1 = 11 (from subs that downgraded)
5 X 7 = 35 (from subs that upgraded to another DMA)
20 x 1 = 20 (from non-subs that upgraded)
27 X 0 = 0 (from non-subs that didn't)
Total from poll after EPG only = *$150*

EPG only produced a loss of *$30 * for dishnetwork :nono:


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