# Audit Team Discussion



## MrFooks

I received a phone call last week from Dish while I was out of the country. My wife took the message and reminded me today to return the call to dish.
I dialed the technical support and was given a different toll free number to dial.
The call was answered " Receiver Audit team"
I had to go around the house and let them know the receiver ca id number, software version and location id of every one of each of my 5 receivers.
I've been a dish customer for 7 years. I subscribe to Americas everything package, locals, Hi def, you name it I got it.
Has anyone else experienced this?
I suspect it was a total load of BS
Any takers

thanks


----------



## Jason Nipp

No it is not BS. 

Dish has started enforcing phone line connections. If you do not have a live phone line to connect to then you are supposed to pay an additional fee. Accounts with multiple receivers, especially DVR's are subject to audit. 

Several people in here have had their accounts suspended until they could read off the location ID's.


----------



## garypen

Jason Nipp said:


> No it is not BS.
> 
> Dish has started enforcing phone line connections. If you do not have a live phone line to connect to then you are supposed to pay an additional fee. Accounts with multiple receivers, especially DVR's are subject to audit.


What additional fee? I thought that was only for the dual-output models. They have a fee for ANY model not plugged into a phone line?


----------



## Jason Nipp

garypen said:


> What additional fee? I thought that was only for the dual-output models. They have a fee for ANY model not plugged into a phone line?


Sorry, I was more or less was referring to DVR's.


----------



## garypen

They have an additional fee for 50x's, 721's, and 921's not plugged into a phone line?


----------



## MrFooks

Well that's interesting.
I have all 5 dvr machines of which 3 are two tuners, 2 921's and 1 721.
All these 3 are connected to phone lines. The other 2 are 508's and do not have a phone line.
I pay on CC autopay and never even see a bill. I can't remember the last time one showed up in the mail.
I sure hope I am not being charged for no phone connection to those 2 508's


----------



## Jason Nipp

MrFooks said:


> Well that's interesting.
> I have all 5 dvr machines of which 3 are two tuners, 2 921's and 1 721.
> All these 3 are connected to phone lines. The other 2 are 508's and do not have a phone line.
> I pay on CC autopay and never even see a bill. I can't remember the last time one showed up in the mail.
> I sure hope I am not being charged for no phone connection to those 2 508's


Did you ask what the criteria was for selecting you for an audit?


----------



## MrFooks

No, I just gave them the info they needed
They asked me if I had heard of wireless phone connections.
I told them the 2 508's were in my kids rooms and they aren't allowed to purchase PPV's


----------



## BuckeyeChris

If SBC (with whom I subscribe to Dish with my 522 and two 311s) were to call me and ask me to perform that BS exercise that MrFooks described, :listenup: I would tell them to take their equipment and shove it.

That is not good customer service. You don't treat your customers like thieves, and you don't ask them to take inventory. Figure out another way to audit that doesn't intrude on the customer's time, and don't treat them like crooks. :kickbutt:


----------



## Darkman

You ll be OK now i would think...

They basically just wanted to see if all receivers are located within one household, one location, etc...

You gave them all the location ID #s , so you are OK now...

They were discussing this at Retailer Chat also..

I think if one does NOT give them all the ID #s .. they would attempt again to get them.. 
Meanwhile the person would go to the "suspicious bin" so to speak...

In any case.. - the longer one postpone giving them the ID #s .. the more suspicious that Audit Team will become eventually.. and finally they DO reserve the right to suspend / cancel one's account.. - until they get what they want...


----------



## Ron Barry

Not BS. I was audited just recently and know of another person also. I ignored the first call and when I did not call back after the second my service was interrupted. 

Long story.. I went through the audit process. It was not pleasent in my mind and I know Dish is aware of my experience thanks to some help from a good friend. Hopefully they will improve in this area thanks to some feedback they received. 

One of my boxes is not connected. They are trying to make sure I am not trying to split the bill with my neighbor. In my opinion this is an area for improvement. 

As to the extra fee, I don't recall them ever mentioning that. my 921 is not hooked up to the phone line and I don't recall seeing an extra fee. I will check my bill and not be happy if I have one.


----------



## Darkman

BuckeyeChris said:


> If SBC (with whom I subscribe to Dish with my 522 and two 311s) were to call me and ask me to perform that BS exercise that MrFooks described, :listenup: I would tell them to take their equipment and shove it.
> 
> That is not good customer service. You don't treat your customers like thieves, and you don't ask them to take inventory. Figure out another way to audit that doesn't intrude on the customer's time, and don't treat them like crooks. :kickbutt:


I know that procedure sucks.. but that is the way they chose to go about this (on a random basis at first i believe.. unless they suspect someone.. that would give one a priority to be this lucky receipient of this "give us the #s" procedure...

Same practices are known up north.. over at Canadian Bell Express vu provider.. who basically uses the same equipment that DISH uses.. 
They got the same procedures there of randomly calling people to check the #s .. or if they have a reason to suspect someone....

I know it sucks though.. But they chose to execute this procedure.. regardless if one likes this invasion of privacy or not.. - It's basically comes down to "either our way, or the highway".. hehe


----------



## Darkman

I believe those get the DVR fees only (that were ment to get that fee)..

Several DVRs ..and i think including 921 receiver.. are grandfather.. and i believe are exempt from this DVR fee....


----------



## Bill R

Right now, DirecTV is having a tremendous problem with "account stacking" (more than one receiver on an account and receivers located at different locations). DISH is taking an active stand on trying to prevent and/or limit the problem. As Darkman said, if they call you the best thing to do is to give them the information they want. Yes, it is annoying and they need to come up with a better way to verify the receiver location, but, for now, the technology is a regular telephone line and, if you don't have one plugged into the receiver you might get audited.


----------



## JohnH

If all receivers can call in then they would have the caller ID, but if some cannot call in then they start checking.


----------



## Ron Barry

The 921 has a DVR fee. the 721 and the 50x are grandfathered for DVR fees.


----------



## Darkman

Can't the cheater, just get on the Cell phone say.. and call his buddy.. get buddy to give him the #... and then provide this number to DISH?

my understanding was / is that that number is kinda random.. and changes everytime the receiver is rebooted maybe even.. (not sure on that though) ... unless though .. be it random or not.. but somehow they can tie up the number to one's account...

Not sure anyhow.... just talking out loud


----------



## BuckeyeChris

Darkman said:


> I know that procedure sucks.. but that is the way they chose to go about this (on a random basis at first i believe.. unless they suspect someone.. that would give one a priority to be this lucky receipient of this "give us the #s" procedure...
> 
> Same practices are known up north.. over at Canadian Bell Express vu provider.. who basically uses the same equipment that DISH uses..
> They got the same procedures there of randomly calling people to check the #s .. or if they have a reason to suspect someone....
> 
> I know it sucks though.. But they chose to execute this procedure.. regardless if one likes this invasion of privacy or not.. - It's basically comes down to "either our way, or the highway".. hehe


Well, I understand what you're saying, that it's becoming common practice. But that still doesn't make it right, does it? Don't be an apologist for being treated poorly.

Yes, before someone says that they have the right to do this under the terms and conditions, I'm sure that they are well within their rights. But I'm also certain that the competition is always standing by, waiting to lure away their competitors' customers.

You don't have to take it. Tell them you won't and that you will immediately take your business elsewhere. If that doesn't get their attention, then escalate your complaint until someone hears you.


----------



## garypen

How would they know where the boxes are from the location codes? If they aren't plugged in, they aren't plugged in.


----------



## jsanders

BuckeyeChris said:


> You don't have to take it. Tell them you won't and that you will immediately take your business elsewhere. If that doesn't get their attention, then escalate your complaint until someone hears you.


The competition has this problem too, and, they will do the same thing.

You can avoid any possibility of audit though. I only have one receiver on my account - no reason to audit me (even if I lent the receiver to a neighbor), as I am paying for all of my programming, and no chance of getting away with just paying an additinal receiver fee. You can also plug every receiver you have into a phone line. The more receivers you have w/o a phone line, the more chance you have of being audited.

Why are you so upset about this anyway?


----------



## Darkman

i can't remember now.. but i might have read elsewhere .. long time ago.. so not sure.. but maybe L. ID is somehow tied to to the particular time.. 
Like maybe it changes every 10 minutes or so (not sure though)...

Makes sense though.. (for if say.. one has location ID value written on a piece of paper (together with receiver number / card number of course) taken even say an hour ago..)) .. and when DISH calls .. the person gives them that number.. thinking he is OK now.. but, hehe, instead he is deeper in the dog house cuz of this...

Imagine this.. DISH goes.. - no no no.. this number aint good nuff.. we do not want the number from 1 hour / 1 day / etc ago.. we want the CURRENT number .. lol

What the poor sucker to do then as a reply? (... hmmmm.. the receiver is currently broken.. or receiver is currently unplugged and far away in the closet somewhere on the top shelf and i do not have a step ladder to reach it.. or, hehe.. there is no power in the house currently .. as i am upgrading my electrical system.. so those numbers were taken sometime ago before the electrical ugprade started 
Gee...


----------



## BuckeyeChris

jsanders said:


> The competition has this problem too, and, they will do the same thing. ...


Cable does this too? I had Time Warner for years until recently, and before them, (going way back) an outfit called Continental Cable before TW bought them out, and never experienced this.



jsanders said:


> Why are you so upset about this anyway?


For reasons already stated above -- this is poor customer service. I don't tolerate it, and when I experience it, I take my business elsewhere whenever possible.


----------



## Darkman

I don't think it's possible though to "account stack" with Cable.. is it now 

So no need for those types of privacy invasions with cable then, is it now


----------



## BuckeyeChris

Darkman said:


> I don't think it's possible though to "account stack" with Cable.. is it now
> 
> So no need for those types of privacy invasions with cable then, is it now


I think you missed my point. DBS isn't the only game in town. You can give your business to cable. Honest paying customers who want good programming have several options.


----------



## Darkman

I hear you.. but i am pretty sure DISH is aware of "other games in town" also.. but however still choose to continue to do as they are doing...

I guess.. it's a matter of principle to them.. to exercise with set forward strategies..


----------



## Darkman

Copy/Paste from elsewhere:

Q: "Hi,
to all of you expert out there, can anybody tell me how dishnetwork identify location of the receiver from the location ID?

i 've been transfered to audit department at dishnetwork they wanted to make sure the 2 receivers on my account are in the same house,

they told me give me location id of the first and location id of the second, they asked me to identify each location id in which room will be?

they said ok sir, your 2 receivers are active.

how can they identify the place from the location ID?
is each channel has different location id or what?

how does it work? is that true it give them our location?"


A #1: "If you can read the location ID's off to them, they conclude that the receivers are in your home. If you can't, they assume that you are involved in account sharing, which is against the rules..."

A #2: "They know what the location id should be using a formula based on the receiver sn , type of card and time of day.. all they were really doing is making sure you could read them supposedly random data on cue, the receiver could be physically anywhere and the location id would be the same.."


----------



## jsanders

BuckeyeChris said:


> Cable does this too? I had Time Warner for years until recently, and before them, (going way back) an outfit called Continental Cable before TW bought them out, and never experienced this.


I guess you have to ask your question another way. Do people steal cable TV too? People have been stealing cable a lot longer than they have been stealing satellite TV. They will come knocking on your door if they suspect you have more TVs connected than you are paying for, or, if the cable is split with a new line going to your neighbor's house. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.



BuckeyeChris said:


> For reasons already stated above -- this is poor customer service. I don't tolerate it, and when I experience it, I take my business elsewhere whenever possible.


I don't tolerate people who steal satellite or cable even more. People that do that raise my bill, and they cause people other than me (cuz I only have one receiver) to get audited.


----------



## Guest

Deleted Message


----------



## kenglish

Wish there was a way to let Broadcasters "audit" who is watching out-of-market locals .


----------



## BuckeyeChris

jsanders said:


> I guess you have to ask your question another way. Do people steal cable TV too? People have been stealing cable a lot longer than they have been stealing satellite TV. They will come knocking on your door if they suspect you have more TVs connected than you are paying for, or, if the cable is split with a new line going to your neighbor's house. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
> 
> I don't tolerate people who steal satellite or cable even more. People that do that raise my bill, and they cause people other than me (cuz I only have one receiver) to get audited.


Where did I ever say or insinuate that it was okay to steal cable or satellite service?

From the description that MrFooks gave, this audit team had no reason to audit him. If they spend their time going after honest paying customers through apparently random audits, then *their process is inefficient*.

You say that those who steal this service cause you to get audited, maybe so. I say, however, that the service providers are *going after the wrong people*. *Maybe your bill wouldn't be raised if they went after the right people?*


----------



## AllieVi

BuckeyeChris said:


> From the description that MrFooks gave, this audit team had no reason to audit him. If they spend their time going after honest paying customers through apparently random audits, then *their process is inefficient*.


I have no problem with random audits. Why do you assume that MrFooks is an "honest paying customer?" (with apologies to MrFooks).

I'll take the heat off Fooks by using myself as an example. I pay DISH for 3 receivers, so I meet the "paying customer" criteria. But that doesn't mean I'm honest. It so happens that all three of my receivers are in my house, used by me (trust me - have I ever lied to you before?).

None of my receivers is connected to a phone line, so DISH can't automatically verify location. Their back-up approach is the random phone call. So be it. They give me an easy way to avoid being called and I choose not to cooperate. Some people have no landline service, so connecting to a phone line is more of a problem. But everyone who has DISH service knows (or should know) the terms of the agreement from the start.

You and I have no idea how efficient their process of identifying thieves is. I'm sure DISH is perfectly happy keeping it that way, so don't expect to see any reliable statistics about it.

The fear of being identified as a thief probably helps keep some people honest. As a result, they don't enter a life of petty thievery leading to ever-larger crimes, mayhem, murder and the eventual complete breakdown of civilized society. All thanks to DISH's policy!


----------



## JohnH

BuckeyeChris said:


> You say that those who steal this service cause you to get audited, maybe so. I say, however, that the service providers are *going after the wrong people*. *Maybe your bill wouldn't be raised if they went after the right people?*


You have offered no suggestion as to how they should determine who the "right people" are.

BTW: When they call you to check your receiver locations they will not accept being put on hold during the process and all the checks must be completed in one call. They do have amplifiers on their headsets and can hear what is going on. Once they asked me to turn down my TV when I could barely hear it. 

There used to be check done when adding receivers 4, 5 or 6.

Darkman is correct, that the results are determined by the fact you can give them correct numbers during the call, meaning you did not go to your neighbor's or brother's house to get some of the numbers.


----------



## Darkman

lol, - "Ammm.. i am having a stomach problems.. and have to go to the washroom.. but mine is broken.. so i ll go next door to use their's - would you mind waiting 5 minute or so...."


----------



## lacruz

I am in Law Enforcement and my experience tells me that no matter WHO is calling me, I am not giving anyone this type of information over the phone ON A CALL THAT THEY INITIATE. I will call DISH back and give it to them that way.

It would be foolish to give your account numbers or PIN to "your bank" or "your credit card company" if they called you to verify your account information. But people do this everyday: It's called Identity Theft. A thief will call you, pretending to be a legitimate service provider. They will come up with some reason that seems legitimate for asking for this information. They will gain the victim's trust, then they ask for all kinds of information. Online thieves do this too, it's called "phishing." Likewise, one should NEVER click on any links to a website in an email and provide personal data. Rather, open the website in a new window and go into your account that way.

Now I have no idea how a thief or a hacker could use my receiver ID codes, serial numbers, etc. to their advantage. I am not that knowledgeable about how this information could be abused if it falls into the wrong hands. So, I would suggest that if anyone ever calls you asking for any of this data, BE SUSPICIOUS, and politely tell them that you will call them back by calling the phone number on your bill.

Now if DISH cancels my account because I decide to play it safe and call them back with the information, then so be it. But I would rather have them cancel my account than go through the next 5 years trying to clean up my credit. I would rather not do business with such a company that would ask me "trust" them when they call and risk becoming a victim.


----------



## Mark Holtz

It is standard operating procedure at the company I work with that if I initiate the call, and I request some personal information, I request that the person give me a call back to verify who I say I am. Only a few customers request calling us back... they know me too well.


----------



## jtravel

If you choose not to keep your receiver connected to a phone line then your subject to random audit. Thats your choice to make. Both DBS companies recommend the receivers be connected to a phone line. I think its its good they don't require this and atleast give you the option.
Only *E duel tuner receivers have a extra $5 charge if they are not kept connected to the phone line.

The bottome line is If your not trying to rip *E or *D off by stacking receivers whats the big deal with reading the receiver location codes off the screen and providing these to the DBS company?
There is no doubt *D currently makes it easy for customers to stack receivers and they are losing revenue because of it. In the end They must charge more to honest customers to make up for there loss to the scammers.
*E has decided instead to offers lower cost packages to honest consumers and has made it policy to try and catch Receiver stackers from ripping them off.
If you want to avoid the inconvience then keep your receiver connected to a phone line.


----------



## Jacob S

Dish Network locked my account a while back after giving me an audit saying that I did not pass it, after I gave them all the location ID on all of the receivers that were activated. They requested the numbers from two receivers that were not activated but still shown as activated previously on the account. Because I did not give them the location ID from two receivers that were not even activated any longer they locked the account but did not tell me right then. When I called in later they told me. Whenever you have a receiver activated and then you deactivate it, it will remain on the account anyways until you release it. The receivers that were activated already remained active but they said my account was locked and this pissed me off. I asked them how I was supposed to give them a location id from receivers that were not even hooked up and why I was expected to.

Next year DirecTv may get my business instead of Dish Network because of this. I was finally able to get my account unlocked after demanding so after calling back the Receiver Audit Team. These people were not very nice! The best customers should be treated the best, not treated like this! Not everyone has a landline to connect receivers up to and a lot of people have cell phone service only. Another thing is that the cable companies do not require a landline to have their service. If the cable company would be better in this area then I probably would have been with them a long time ago without giving satellite any thought then just like most others do.

I know of many people that would drop their service so fast if this were to happen to them. Most people do not tolerate being accused of things they did not do. I made sure that those two receivers that had been activated in the past were taken completely off of the account so that it would not happen again. I upgraded the receivers I had to dual tuner DVR's so that my dad could record two shows at once and watch them whenever he wanted plus I could always use the second tv output if I needed to hookup another television. It also saves on additional outlet fees.


----------



## garypen

lacruz said:


> I am in Law Enforcement and my experience tells me that no matter WHO is calling me, I am not giving anyone this type of information over the phone ON A CALL THAT THEY INITIATE. I will call DISH back and give it to them that way.


There ya go. Problem solved. End of story.


----------



## Darkman

lacruz said:


> I am in Law Enforcement and my experience tells me that no matter WHO is calling me, I am not giving anyone this type of information over the phone ON A CALL THAT THEY INITIATE. I will call DISH back and give it to them that way.


Be it so.. - it might NOT be sufficient enough for them to be satisfied with what you give them YOUR way...

Why? .. cuz - as far as they might think.. maybe you just wrote down all the information from your receivers.. called your buddies .. and wrote down their's .. all within last few minutes.. AND.. now quickly calling them to report those figures ASAP... while the location IDs are still current...

That is why they like to call YOU.. whenever it might be.. so you don't know when they will call you.. ... then it's back to original plan - "We call you - and you give us all the numbers as we speak now" (.. "instead of You calling us with the numbers already ready to be given to us.. be that they came from your TV screens.. or from your buddies' .. Which just don't cut it as far as we are concerned")

That's why, garypen, lol - Nope.. the problem isn't solved yet 

And the Story still contnues


----------



## Darkman

.. and if you tell them when you call them: "I don't have numbers written down.. - i can go around my house..and give them to you NOW"

lol, they do not know if it's TRUE or NOT.. - cuz you might be telling the truth.. but on the other hand.. you still have it written on the piece of paper..and instead of going around the house, as you said you would.. maybe you will still just read the numbers from that piece of paper


----------



## AllieVi

I've always assumed that the person on the other end of the line can reset/regenerate and know the number any time they want. They obviously know the number - I simply assume they can change it at will, too.


----------



## Evil Capserian

Darkman said:


> .. and if you tell them when you call them: "I don't have numbers written down.. - i can go around my house..and give them to you NOW"
> 
> lol, they do not know if it's TRUE or NOT.. - cuz you might be telling the truth.. but on the other hand.. you still have it written on the piece of paper..and instead of going around the house, as you said you would.. maybe you will still just read the numbers from that piece of paper


In any event, we all should stop giving dish this when they call and call them back. If dish wants to disconnect, than so be it. There is always directv and cable. Even better if your on a contract with them, and they call you and they don't get what they want, wonderful, they will disconnect me and goodye to contract.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Evil Capserian said:


> In any event, we all should stop giving dish this when they call and call them back. If dish wants to disconnect, than so be it. There is always directv and cable. Even better if your on a contract with them, and they call you and they don't get what they want, wonderful, they will disconnect me and goodye to contract.


Bad idea. As I understand if you don't have the location ID while on that call then box will be permanently disabled.


----------



## Evil Capserian

Jason Nipp said:


> Bad idea. As I understand if you don't have the location ID while on that call then box will be permanently disabled.


Wonderful, cause im on a contract and dish by turning it off is going to violate the contract and set me free.


----------



## Jacob S

Dish Network left me a voice message to call back a specific number and the name to ask for. I called back as soon as I checked it. When you do call them make sure that you call the 1-800-333-3474 and release any receivers that you have on your account in which are not activated in case you sold receivers or had some swapped out when upgrading them and if they are no longer active because they will demand the location ID from those receivers regardless. No point in going through the same hassle I did.


----------



## jsanders

Evil Capserian said:


> Wonderful, cause im on a contract and dish by turning it off is going to violate the contract and set me free.


If they permanently disable your receiver, you can't sell it. May not be a big deal for one of their free recievers, but if it is an expensive one, then you might want to reconsider.

From E*s perspective, I don't believe they set you free from the contract. I imagine they see *you* in violation of your contract. Are there penalties for that?


----------



## garypen

Darkman said:


> That is why they like to call YOU.. whenever it might be.. so you don't know when they will call you.. ... then it's back to original plan - "We call you - and you give us all the numbers as we speak now" (.. "instead of You calling us with the numbers already ready to be given to us.. be that they came from your TV screens.. or from your buddies' .. Which just don't cut it as far as we are concerned")
> 
> That's why, garypen, lol - Nope.. the problem isn't solved yet


Not according to Jacob, who had the following experience: _Dish Network left me a voice message to call back a specific number and the name to ask for. I called back as soon as I checked it. _

So, as I said before...Problem solved.


----------



## jsanders

BuckeyeChris said:


> Where did I ever say or insinuate that it was okay to steal cable or satellite service?
> 
> From the description that MrFooks gave, this audit team had no reason to audit him. If they spend their time going after honest paying customers through apparently random audits, then their process is inefficient.
> 
> You say that those who steal this service cause you to get audited, maybe so. I say, however, that the service providers are going after the wrong people. Maybe your bill wouldn't be raised if they went after the right people?


You didn't insuate that it ws okay to steal cable or satellite TV. You complained about E* auditing higher risk customers, and I complained about people who steal the service.

As for the rest, I think AllieVi and JohnH put it nicely.


----------



## Darkman

garypen said:


> Not according to Jacob, who had the following experience: _Dish Network left me a voice message to call back a specific number and the name to ask for. I called back as soon as I checked it. _
> 
> So, as I said before...Problem solved.


Ok.. in this case i appologize...

Maybe it IS solved.. 
Or WAS solved.. in his case anyhow.. 

I don't know then 

But i will have to agree with you on this point though ------> "Nuff said" .. for sure :sure:

{EDIT} ...or was it "END of story"


----------



## Darkman

Jacob S said:


> Dish Network left me a voice message to call back a specific number and the name to ask for. I called back as soon as I checked it.


And what happened when you called back?

The guy just took down your information from all your TVs / Receivers?
(even though they could have pre-written on a paper.. just before you called that number?)

Or you called that number.. and then maybe someone called you back after.. and you went from room to room.. from TV to TV.. at that particular time?


----------



## Evil Capserian

Darkman said:


> And what happened when you called back?
> 
> The guy just took down your information from all your TVs / Receivers?
> (even though they could have pre-written on a paper.. just before you called that number?)
> 
> Or you called that number.. and then maybe someone called you back after.. and you went from room to room.. from TV to TV.. at that particular time?


You know, whatever happened to trust. We live in a world where we cant trust anyone anymore. We dont trust dish calling us because we think they could be theives stealing our credit info and dish does not trust us calling back afterwards with our location id info. What has become of us. One day we will get to a point where we won't trust ourselves, than again we already don't.


----------



## AllieVi

Evil Capserian said:


> You know, whatever happened to trust. We live in a world where we cant trust anyone anymore.


Unfortunately, that's why DISH has to resort to these measures...



Evil Capserian said:


> We dont trust dish calling us because we think they could be theives stealing our credit info and dish does not trust us calling back afterwards with our location id info. What has become of us. One day we will get to a point where we won't trust ourselves, than again we already don't.


I've never received a call from DISH re: my location ID's, so those who have can clarify this issue. I would be surprised if they wanted anything but the location ID numbers. They already know all the other things (account info, etc.) and they're placing the call, so they know who we are. I doubt that repeating those ever-changing numbers would infringe on anyone's privacy.


----------



## ucop27

I had them call me earlier this year, all they want is the location id. My experience was not pleasant, I had taken a couple of my recievers to a cottage I had, so I wasn't able to give them those id's, they failed me and turned off all my receivers except my "main" receiver, I asked them to keep all the ones on that I gave id's to and they said it was too late. I spoke with a supervisor who constantly made me feel like a thief, I explained my situation and was told I would have to have a seperate account for each reciever. I emailed the executive office and got no response, so after a week I emailed them again telling them I am cancelling my service and going somewhere else, they called me back the same day and activate my recievers for me. The best part of the audit was when the supervisor said that they share "fraudulent customer" info with *D. :lol:


----------



## Darkman

reminds me of Russia under Stalin .. somewhat


----------



## BuckeyeChris

From the anecdotal evidence given here by various posters, my criticism that Dish's audit process is an example of poor customer service has been vindicated. Those who continue to defend it and tolerate it are apologists. You deserve the kind of service you get. If you're happy with it, fine. However, many of us who are loyal, honest customers will take our business elsewhere if treated poorly.

Oh, I must make a comment about the audit team not accepting/tolerating it if you put them on hold, as mentioned by JohnH. From this description, the audit team sounds like a bunch of power-hungry twits with little/no customer service training or regard with which how to treat customers.


----------



## JohnH

You don't seem to understand the significance of being put on hold during an audit. Could be a way to get to the neighbors for the additional checks without being heard. It is a justified restriction which is part of the procedure.

As to customer service, it is an audit. Have not known many auditors to be particularly customer friendly.


----------



## rpope02

If you don't like it, then just take your business to another company.


----------



## BuckeyeChris

JohnH said:


> You don't seem to understand the significance of being put on hold during an audit. Could be a way to get to the neighbors for the additional checks without being heard. It is a justified restriction which is part of the procedure.
> 
> As to customer service, it is an audit. Have not known many auditors to be particularly customer friendly.


No, you're right. I don't understand it. I will never understand why a Dish customer, or any other customer of a service, should be audited in such a way. They need better controls that are discrete, less invasive and respect customers.

No, to others who have asked, I don't have an alternative solution to offer. That's not my job. However, I can still criticize this process from the outside.

Why do you think that Dish and other service companies survey customers on quality and customer service? Do you think that customers must always know the solution to the problem before they can complaint about it? Having a solution before you complain is always best if you are an employee in that, or any other organization. However, no such requirement should be necessary for customers to make a complaint. For if that were the case, then how would organizations ever institute change based on customer feedback? They could just sit back and say "Everything must be fine here, because these customers don't know of a better way."


----------



## Darkman

BuckeyeChris said:


> No, you're right. I don't understand it. I will never understand why a Dish customer, or any other customer of a service, should be audited in such a way. They need better controls that are discrete, less invasive and respect customers.


However.. no other control methods exist.. nor technically possible (or so i think anyhow)


----------



## BuckeyeChris

rpope02 said:


> If you don't like it, then just take your business to another company.


And customers will when they are fed up. That's a great attitude to have.  Soon you'll be heading up Quality and Customer Service for some company. To hell with the customers, Sales will keep the suckers _comin'_! :heybaby:


----------



## BuckeyeChris

Darkman said:


> However.. no other control methods exist.. nor technically possible (or so i think anyhow)


That doesn't justify poor customer service. The incentive should be there to come up with a better way.


----------



## JohnH

The better way in this case may be one receiver per account. Would you accept that?


----------



## derwin0

BuckeyeChris said:


> They need better controls that are discrete, less invasive and respect customers.


There is a better discrete control. It's called "Plug in the phone line"


----------



## Darkman

hehe.. - what he said above!! .. i guess


----------



## AllieVi

BuckeyeChris said:


> No, you're right. I don't understand it. I will never understand why a Dish customer, or any other customer of a service, should be audited in such a way. They need better controls that are discrete, less invasive and respect customers.


If the auditors seem rude to everyone, that's clearly not justified.

I doubt that they seem rude to those who can easily give the location ID's and I can understand their suspicion of those who can't. The reps know all the tricks people use and I wouldn't be surprised if their hair triggers are activated when they sense deception.

I don't always rely on a person's description of how a conversation went. It's usually colored by their perception and personal involvement in/reaction to the issue. For example, my hot-tempered neighbor seems to have a lot more confrontations with people than I do.



BuckeyeChris said:


> No, to others who have asked, I don't have an alternative solution to offer. That's not my job. However, I can still criticize this process from the outside.


Your "It's not my job" comment is just a convenient excuse by someone who *can't* offer an alternative. Others who have assessed the situation for years have come up with no other approach that works and many of us agree. I recommend that you contribute a solution if you really believe there is one. Use your imagination. Consider it a personal challenge. In any event, quit bellyaching.


----------



## garypen

Chris is right. That's all there is to it. (Especially when he refers to the apolists as "apologists". Right on the money.)

AllieVi - The fact that there is no alternative at this time, does not make their current process acceptable. If removing a person's heart was the only viable alternative for preventing heart disease, it would not make removing the heart an acceptable procedure.


----------



## Ron Barry

Ok... let me add my perspective to this. I experienced the audit personallly and I know of someone else who also has. 

I have one of my receivers not hooked up. Dish left a crypted message on my phone to call them and then cut my signal feed a couple of hours after the message was left. I only got OTA and some of the free stuff . I called support and they could not do a thing (It was 10pm when I got home). I had to call in the morning. Lady on the phone said that they tried to reach me in May once. So here is the logic.

1) Leave message in May. Wife recalls it, but it did not sound urgent.
2) Dish Leave crypted message today not mentioning loss of service.
3) Dish cuts service.


Called in the morning. Talked to a Tom. I was made to feel like a criminal. Here is how it went.

1) Since you don't have all your receivers hooked to a phone line we are auditing you.
2) I have two of three hooked up.
3) Yes that is what I said.. You don't have all of them. ( I interpereted the statement to mean none.
4) We are going to have you walk around the house and give us info from each receiver. If you place use on hold or drop the call your receivers will be perminetly disabled. Yes the guy said perminetly. I am sitting on a cordless phone walking around. One false move and according to Tom my Receivers are toast.

Audit went successful, but I did feel like a I was been accussed. 

Dish is aware of my feelings on their process due to a friend letting the right person know. The feedback I got was they were not happy to hear it and planned on reviewing the process. 

Personal Note: I fully understand the issue that both Dish and DirecTV have to deal with. I think Dish's current mechanism is not correct way and they need to do something more positive to address this situation. Hopefully, they will listen to feedback and make some adjustments. 

I dont think it is time to grap your pitchforks yet.


----------



## wittlesvaseel

You can take your busienss elsewhere. That's fine. A lot of people seem to think that tv is a right, not a privilege. Reread the customer agreement. In exchange for money,you receive services. How they choose to enforce compliance is up to them. They are a business, and to stay in business they need to cut down on fraud. 

If your account meets the criteria for accounts that have been fraudulent(doesn't matter if your next up for sainthood), don't be very surprised if you do get a call one day asking for an esplanation. Cable would be no different. If they suspected you of running a cable out of your house to your neighbors or vice versa, they would look into it as well. 

Of course the competitors would love to steal you away, but if your account seems fraudulent to whatever company you to as well, perhaps it would be time to do what the service provider asks of you, instead of trying to get around it.


----------



## wittlesvaseel

There is another way to get around not plugging in a phone line, pay a mirror fee like Dtv does. Seems most people I talk to though that have Dish instead don't like the mirroring fee.


----------



## JohnL

garypen said:


> How would they know where the boxes are from the location codes? If they aren't plugged in, they aren't plugged in.


A Location code is just a code with that label. The Code has no bearing at all for the receiver other than keep changing based on specific criteria only Dish knows.

The reason its called a location code is so Dish can call you and verify you are reading the active code number (as it is changed at least once per day maybe more often). Since this code changes at regular intervals Dish calls and if you give them an old code or a non valid code it will be assumed you are account stacking or suspected of it.

Dish didn't realize how prevalent Account Stacking was until they started moving locals to spotbeams. Hundreds and hundreds of "SUBS" called complaining they lost their local channels. Turns out most of these "SUBS" were stacking onto family and friends accounts in other parts of the country and the only reason they lost "THEIR locals" was because they were hundreds or thousands of miles out of the Spotbeam coverage for those locals.

After this Dish took a proactive stance on Account Stacking, by either TELLING SUBS with more than 5 receivers to connect Phone lines or by calling them from Time to Time to see if the Subscriber can or could provide valid Receivier, Smart card ID's and Location codes for each and every receiver.

I have 6 receivers and I had been called twice until I connected phone lines to all my receivers except for the receiver on my BOAT, and I can't provide a Valid Location ID for it as it's 25 miles from my home or a Phone line connection, but Dish told me no problem and I haven't had a call in about 18 months or so, as long as my boat is my own owned property only used by my family.

John


----------



## AllieVi

garypen said:


> ...AllieVi - The fact that there is no alternative at this time, does not make their current process acceptable. ...


Let me extend the same challenge to you:

Option 1 - Do no auditing at all (not really an option from DISH's perspective)
Option 2 - Do what they're doing now
Option 3 - ?????

"I'm putting you on the hot seat with me. I need that third option" (or words to that effect, James T. Kirk, some future Stardate)


----------



## JohnL

wittlesvaseel said:


> There is another way to get around not plugging in a phone line, pay a mirror fee like Dtv does. Seems most people I talk to though that have Dish instead don't like the mirroring fee.


Wittles,

What are you talking about, both Dish and DirecTV have mirror fees for secondary receivers.

With that said you can't reasonably think paying a small mirror fee of $5.00 should be okay to let seperate households service piggyback on someonelse's account.

Dish Subs pay mirror fees and are not complaining about it. Its a few whiners that think they shouldn't be incovienenced by Audit calls because they either don't, won't or Can't connect Phone lines to their receivers.

Again from a previous post, I have 6 receivers 5 at home and one at my Boat. On my second Audit call, Dish told me in no uncertain terms I'm NOW REQUIRED to connect phone lines to ALL my recievers or risk losing service, probably because I couldn't provide one set of ID's and location codes for the receiver located on my boat on a previous CALL.

On the second Audit call I explained my situation for my non connected receiver on myboat (Dish have my RV waiver for distant locals with my NY State registration) I agreed to the new terms or service connected all 5 homebound receivers and was exempted from requiring future Audit calls for my Boat receiver or Phone connection to that reciever.

Problem solved Audit specialist was friendly and patience as was I. Getting indignant or rude or short with the specialist is not a great idea. I explained calmly it would take time going from one room to another to get the ID's the calls took about 4 minutes, BIG DEAL!! If it means less freeloaders I'm all for it. The biggest whiners are likely the biggest cheaters.

John


----------



## jsanders

AllieVi said:


> Let me extend the same challenge to you:
> 
> Option 1 - Do no auditing at all (not really an option from DISH's perspective)
> Option 2 - Do what they're doing now
> Option 3 - ?????
> 
> "I'm putting you on the hot seat with me. I need that third option" (or words to that effect, James T. Kirk, some future Stardate)


Yea, Kirk would ask the chief engineer for the third option, but if you hadn't heard, Scotty died this morning! :nono2:


----------



## Ron Barry

JohnL said:


> Problem solved Audit specialist was friendly and patience as was I. Getting indignant or rude or short with the specialist is not a great idea. I explained calmly it would take time going from one room to another to get the ID's the calls took about 4 minutes, BIG DEAL!! If it means less freeloaders I'm all for it. The biggest whiners are likely the biggest cheaters.
> John


My experience was a bit different. Maybe some adjustments were made. When did this happen John? When it happend to me, I was told that if the connection was lost for any reason, my receivers would be permanently disabled. This last statement I felt was going out of bounds.

Hopefully they have corrected this type of audit. Very aggressive and very in your face. Maybe it was the fact I never called them back the first time. If they are going to continue these types of audits they have to be more courteous at a minimum so you are not made to feel like you are stealing from Dish.


----------



## Jason Nipp

Hey guys, lets not deviate into discussions on card readers...etc.... I have removed posts that contain this topic.


----------



## BuckeyeChris

AllieVi said:


> If the auditors seem rude to everyone, that's clearly not justified.
> 
> I doubt that they seem rude to those who can easily give the location ID's and I can understand their suspicion of those who can't. The reps know all the tricks people use and I wouldn't be surprised if their hair triggers are activated when they sense deception.
> 
> I don't always rely on a person's description of how a conversation went. It's usually colored by their perception and personal involvement in/reaction to the issue. For example, my hot-tempered neighbor seems to have a lot more confrontations with people than I do.
> 
> Your "It's not my job" comment is just a convenient excuse by someone who *can't* offer an alternative. Others who have assessed the situation for years have come up with no other approach that works and many of us agree. I recommend that you contribute a solution if you really believe there is one. Use your imagination. Consider it a personal challenge. In any event, quit bellyaching.


Wow, you completely excerpted from my quote what you thought served you and took what I said out of context! Here's my full quote, and this is my response to your game of 20 questions, or 3, or whatever the arbitrary number you fixated on was:

No, to others who have asked, I don't have an alternative solution to offer. That's not my job. However, I can still criticize this process from the outside.

Why do you think that Dish and other service companies survey customers on quality and customer service? Do you think that customers must always know the solution to the problem before they can complaint about it? Having a solution before you complain is always best if you are an employee in that, or any other organization. However, no such requirement should be necessary for customers to make a complaint. For if that were the case, then how would organizations ever institute change based on customer feedback? They could just sit back and say "Everything must be fine here, because these customers don't know of a better way."​


----------



## DoyleS

Does Dish have any options for vacation homes like they do for boats or motorhomes? I can understand the potential for abuse but it would seem that a remote receiver like this could be connected to a known phone of record for the same person in the vacation home. 

..Doyle


----------



## scooper

Just how difficult is it to disconnect a receiver at your primary house, and haul it to the vacation home (where you leave a dish setup), then plug it in (except phoneline) at the vacation place for the duration ?


----------



## cboylan3

Jason Nipp said:


> Hey guys, lets not deviate into discussions on card readers...etc.... I have removed posts that contain this topic.


Jason - just curious why you did that. There are a lot of threads that go off topic but mods don't delete the posts that are off topic. They usually jump in and remind everyone to stay on topic. I was in the process of reading the posts (a whole page) when you deleted them. I didn't see anything at the time that was against forum rules.

thx


----------



## Ron Barry

I believe Jason removed It because it was borderline hack talk. It was in the gray area for sure but better safe than sorry with that topic around here.


----------



## cboylan3

If you are suggesting that mentioning smart card readers is taboo and only refers to hacking, then you've been grossly mis-informed by someone.

Anyway, back to topic (or at-least I think I'm going back to topic). One of the deleted posts did get me thinking. D* has recently (last year or 2 I guess) been having some serious issues with people stacking accounts and yet they have not (that I've been able to see) taken any approach to correct that problem except for using lawsuits and the court system to contain their problem. This follows the same approach they've used in the past for people they think were hacking their systems. They used lawsuits (or threats of lawsuit) and the court system to contain their problem.

On the other hand, you have E* taking a pro-active stance on the same issues that D* is having. (From the comments in this thread it seems their approach may be a little annoying. But I think with a little tweaking it will work.) I don't see E*s dirty laundry in the news on a weekly basis like D*s.

Bottom line is that I would rather have a company verify that I have the receivers I'm supposed to have and where I'm supposed to have, than have a company sue me for something they think I did without verifying/investigating it.


----------



## Jason Nipp

cboylan3 said:


> Jason - just curious why you did that.





cboylan3 said:


> If you are suggesting that mentioning smart card readers is taboo and only refers to hacking, then you've been grossly mis-informed by someone.


I deleted it because of the last few posts. Not sure how often you were refreshing the screen. Juan's post was very good and an innocent question was asked about if there was any legal uses for these devices. However there were a couple posts that were very questionable and one that even flat out commented on piracy.

So to answer your question as straight forward as possible, a couple bad posts skewed the discussion into a direction we felt was inappropriate. And frankly once a thread digresses into a certain direction it may or may not continue. So I removed the posts. Hack talk is not allowed here even if it was unintentionally skewed into the topic. So it was my choice, delete the posts that were going into that direction or flush the thread. And since this is a hot topic and it deserves to be heard I chose the posts.


----------



## BobaBird

I don't know of a better method but, as with my own crusade issue (DVR fees which we will _not_ get into here), I would rather work towards finding a better way or making a correction than to leave or tell others they should if they don't like it.


wittlesvaseel said:


> ... don't be very surprised if you do get a call one day asking for an esplanation.


Especially if your name is Lucy.


----------



## Ron Barry

Good point Boba... Just to let you know.. My experience and the experience of another was passed on to Dish. From the feedback I received, I believe that the right person knows. My suggestion, if you do run into an audit and you feel you were not treated fairly you should try and provide feedback. 

On the suggestion side. If I was explained why they were calling, asked for a few minutes of my time to help them verify, and not given the threats of permanent disablement, I would have been a much happier customer. Heck, throwing in 5 buck rebate into my bill for my time would have done wonders.


----------



## Jacob S

I dont want to be bothered by Dish Network constantly and being accused of this and that and go through this hassle very often. I just assume to go with another provider if I had to deal with this again. 

I got the voice message from Dish Network when I was not home to accept their phone call so I had to call them back. They did not tell me why to call them but that it was important and to do so as soon as possible. I did hook my receivers up to a phoneline but do not know how much longer I will be able to do this as I may be switching to cell phone service. I am NOT going to have a landline phone just to keep Dish Network. I will get another provider that does not require a constant landline phone if that is what it takes. I am not going to go through this hassle constantly. I was told and had notes put on my account that no phoneline was required in order to receive their service but I suppose thats where the audits come in. I just didn't like the fact that they told me that I failed the audit because I had two receivers that were not activated and not hooked up and didnt give them the numbers off of them. 

I will be considering DirecTv next year if they have dual tuner receivers with two tv outputs in the DVR model and UHF remotes similar to the 522.


----------



## AllieVi

Ron Barry said:


> ... Heck, throwing in 5 buck rebate into my bill for my time would have done wonders.


Now that would be a nice improvement. I agree that some kind of compensation would probably reduce the aggravation level some people feel.


----------



## DoyleS

I could use a little more clarification on one item. I have 2 receivers connected to a phone line and a 301 that is not. I am getting ready to activate a 508 (it will have a phone line) that I picked up and de-activate the 301. My plan was to sell the 301 but do I need to tell the CSR to remove this de-activated receiver my account? It was one of the original receivers I got when I subscribed to Dish. All of my equipment belongs to me.

Scooper- Hauling a receiver back and forth is an option. If on the other hand I could activate a remote receiver at the vacation home, it would be worth $5/month to not have one more thing to carry back and forth each time. 

..Doyle


----------



## Tom_P

scooper said:


> Just how difficult is it to disconnect a receiver at your primary house, and haul it to the vacation home (where you leave a dish setup), then plug it in (except phoneline) at the vacation place for the duration ?


Tell that to my mother, every weekend when she goes to her Beach House. :nono2: Not just the "simplicity or complexity" of just disconect 2 Coaxial cables and the powercord(her case), but the fact the she has an entertaiment center with so many cables(her statement) and so big that I always end up conecting the damn thing every Sunday when she return to her house.  . I just gave her one of my old receivers and activated in her account just for the beach house.

Jacob I'm in that position;

I haven't had a land line since may 2002, why? Cellphone plans have evolved so much that it is a better option to take a plan with more minutes that to pay almost $40 for a hardly used landline phone. I pay $100 for 3 Cellphones, used to pay $70, 50 and 35 respectively, plus the hardline. So I ended up saving $75 a month, that I applied $50 for the Broadband Cable Modem which I didn't had a that time.
So I only have 2 receivers(6000 and a 501) active right now, but I had a 4900, 2700, 3800 and a 7200 during my years with dish since 1998. Now I have a voicemail on my cell from Dishnetwork left last night, this just give me the creeps if I can't provide the Loc Id from the older receivers and got my existing receivers "permanently disconected".


----------



## cboylan3

DoyleS said:


> I am getting ready to activate a 508 (it will have a phone line) that I picked up and de-activate the 301. My plan was to sell the 301 but do I need to tell the CSR to remove this de-activated receiver my account?


Why would you not tell them? I wouldn't want to have something not in use, still on my account


----------



## DoyleS

I plan to tell them. I was referring to some of the previous comments where customers had de-activated equipment when the upgraded and then were asked for the location ids of equipment that they were no longer using and it was no longer on their billing statement. It sounded to me like you had to do something other than de-activating to get them to take that off of your account so that they did not ask for ids on it at a later time. Seems strange to me but that is why I was asking. 

Does Dish have an official policy on hauling receivers back and forth from a home location? I know of some people that take along when they go camping. 

..Doyle


----------



## garypen

cboylan3 said:


> Why would you not tell them? I wouldn't want to have something not in use, still on my account


If they are deactivated, why would they still be on the account? That is the big question.

And, if they are deactivated, wtf do they care what the location ID's are? How would one know that anyway? If they are deactivated, they would logically not be in use.

I sold receivers that I had deactivated from my account before. I never thought to have them removed in some other way, as well.


----------



## AllieVi

garypen said:


> And, if they are deactivated, wtf do they care what the location ID's are? How would one know that anyway?


Those are very good questions. I can't understand what their concern could possibly be, either.

I bought two receivers from eBay sellers years ago and made sure they were "released" from their previous accounts. No problems. I also sold a receiver, being sure to have it released from my account. A receiver recently failed and I chose not to replace it. I suppose I should make sure it's released, too...


----------



## Evil Capserian

Did my post about using card readers for illegal purposes get deleted too?? I can't seem to find it.


----------



## cboylan3

garypen said:


> If they are deactivated, why would they still be on the account? That is the big question.
> 
> And, if they are deactivated, wtf do they care what the location ID's are? How would one know that anyway? If they are deactivated, they would logically not be in use.


I've been trying to figure it out myself. The only thing I can relate it to is when I worked in IT for the DOD. Anytime someone got computer related hardware (monitor, computer, printer, laptop, UPS) it had a service tag number and the user had to sign off on receiving it...essentially having the hardware on their account. When we would do inventory the user was responsible for all the items they signed for. Even if they got a newer laptop and stopped using the old one, they were still responsible for it, 'cause it was still on their "account".


----------



## Jacob S

_


Evil Capserian said:



Did my post about using card readers for illegal purposes get deleted too?? I can't seem to find it.

Click to expand...

_Your post regarding card readers was deleted because it was close to being hack talk according to someone else that previously posted in this thread.


----------



## Jacob S

_


cboylan3 said:



Why would you not tell them? I wouldn't want to have something not in use, still on my account

Click to expand...

_I did not even know that the two 301 receivers were still on the account until they asked for location id's for them when they were not even active. I even thought once that I was told that they were still active when they were not supposed to be. Before any of this happened I remember when I had to email [email protected] to get a 522 activated and the woman called me to get them active. She told me that she was having problems getting the two 301's deactivated that I was replacing the 522's with and then she acted like they were in fact deactivated after asking for the numbers again. I get a call back later asking again the numbers on those two 301's to get them deactivated that she was still having problems with it. I do not know if this has anything to do with the two 301's that were shown on the account or if they were just trying to get location id's on two receivers that were not supposed to be active on the account. I assumed that they were deactivated since I was not getting billed for them and was told that they were not active. I am going to have to make sure that any receive I deactivate gets cleared from the account altogether to avoid anymore issues in the future like this. They should be released anyways when I go to sell them so that someone else can get them activated.


----------



## cboylan3

Evil Capserian said:


> Did my post about using card readers for illegal purposes get deleted too?? I can't seem to find it.


Evil - it seems that way. All i'm going to say on the that subject is that card readers a legal devices to purchase, own and use. There is no law against them, no matter what someone has been telling you. Yes, they can be used in an illegal manner, but so can most legal things such as a car, a gun, a knife, a computer, etc....

ok, now lets move back on subject at hand.


----------



## cboylan3

Jacob S said:


> I am going to have to make sure that any receive I deactivate gets cleared from the account altogether to avoid anymore issues in the future like this.


Thats probably the best way to deal with it


----------



## Evil Capserian

cboylan3 said:


> Evil - it seems that way. All i'm going to say on the that subject is that card readers a legal devices to purchase, own and use. There is no law against them, no matter what someone has been telling you. Yes, they can be used in an illegal manner, but so can most legal things such as a car, a gun, a knife, a computer, etc....
> 
> ok, now lets move back on subject at hand.


Well you gonna have to splain this to the wife. She no like it when my post get erased either.


----------



## Ron Barry

Scroll up Evil.. Jason provided an adequete reason above.


----------



## DoyleS

So today I called up and had my 301 de-activated and had a 508 activated. TSR (I called the technical problems Line) is sending a new Yellow Card for the receiver. I asked him about having the 301 removed from my account and asked him about the location id audit. He said it was not a problem with my 301. He said it would continue to show as one of my receivers until I sold it and then since there was no balance due or outstanding issues it would move to the new owner and account very much like the 508 (which I picked up from someone else) moved to me. I don't think it is a problem. If I get a call they will just have to wait while I hook it up. Surely not something I am going to lose any sleep over. 

..Doyle


----------



## Jacob S

I guess them having to wait on someone to hookup a receiver will make them suspicious even though the receiver is not activated. They should not need the location id on receivers that are not activated. Their computer system should know which receivers are and are not active.


----------



## scooper

Jacob - the only way they can know if a receiver is active is if it has the phoneline hooked up... which is the point to these audit calls.


----------



## AllieVi

scooper said:


> Jacob - the only way they can know if a receiver is active is if it has the phoneline hooked up... which is the point to these audit calls.


You may misunderstand the situation.

Jacob S is fingering about the case of owning and possessing a receiver, but not paying DISH for it to receive signals for whatever reason (it was upgraded, it stopped working, the owner decided not to use it - many possibilities exist).

The receiver is collecting dust in a closet, not connected to anything. The owner contacted DISH sometime in the past and asked it to be removed from the account so that mirroring fees wouldn't be charged. DISH complied and sent a shut-off signal to the receiver. If I understand it correctly, the audit team is now asking for the location ID of that disabled receiver.

Jacob S or others will certainly correct me if I'm wrong about this description.


----------



## Mr-Rick

For the person who said they would take their business elsewhere if DISH were to call him for a receiver audit. Will you promise to leave the country and renounce your citizenship when the IRS calls you in for audit? Your argument does not hold water. DISH has every right to verify their smartcards are being used in the proper location. After all, smartcards are the property of Echostar at ALL TIMES even if they are embedded. If the receivers location cannot be verified in a short but reasonable amount of time, DISH can terminate service to the receiver until it is satisfied it is where it belongs. It's very simple. Account packing is widespread. Decide to take an extra receiver to your job? Get caught and legal action will certainly follow. A local restaurant here got sued for $3000 by DirecTV and some PPV provider for the showing a boxing match using a residential receiver.

I also equate it with a police sobriety check point. If you are sober, what's the problem?


----------



## WhiteForMe

Dish asking about the location ID on a de-subbed box is the funnyest thing I ever heard! How are you going to supply something like that, if it hasn't been subbed by someone else it must be in your attic or a landfill  
But I take it there calling someone who has 5 subbed IRD's and 10 de-subbed listed on there account, so while there asking about the subbed ones, they are just curious about the others?


----------



## QasDishGuy

I didn't read the entire thread I'll be honest, but I wanted to input my two cents.

First, in all my experience, and I route all the work for my office, and routinely examine notes, I have *never* seen a random audit. All audit notes I have seen, generally follow a note where the customer or a technician called dish and led a representative to believe the account was either a commercial account, or receiver sharing. That of course does not mean they don't do random checks, I simply have not seen one.

I have had an experience where a customer ran his business from his home and of course answers the phone with his business greeting. Because of this he was subjected to the audit and had a receiver disconnected at the time. He had his service disconnected and subsequently forced Dish to release him of his contract.


----------



## BuckeyeChris

Mr-Rick said:


> For the person who said they would take their business elsewhere if DISH were to call him for a receiver audit. Will you promise to leave the country and renounce your citizenship when the IRS calls you in for audit? Your argument does not hold water.


And neither does your incongruous and faulty analogy. For most consumers, there are plenty of comparable service providers from which to choose if you don't like the service you receive. However, there is no alternative to the United States of America -- nowhere can you repatriate to and enjoy our same rights and opportunities. If only you had paid attention in high school English class, instead of probably getting high all time :icon_kiff, then maybe then you would have been able to come up with a proper analogy. 



Mr-Rick said:


> DISH has every right to verify their smartcards are being used in the proper location. After all, smartcards are the property of Echostar at ALL TIMES even if they are embedded. If the receivers location cannot be verified in a short but reasonable amount of time, DISH can terminate service to the receiver until it is satisfied it is where it belongs. It's very simple. Account packing is widespread. Decide to take an extra receiver to your job? Get caught and legal action will certainly follow. A local restaurant here got sued for $3000 by DirecTV and some PPV provider for the showing a boxing match using a residential receiver.


Tell me Mr-Rick, who has argued on this thread that Dish doesn't own these smartcards and are not within their rights to verify this information? It certainly wasn't I. If you re-read my posts, I clearly stated that Dish was probably within its rights of the terms and conditions.

Also, tell me, who on this thread has advocated that it's okay to steal satellite equipment and/or service?



Mr-Rick said:


> I also equate it with a police sobriety check point. If you are sober, what's the problem?


If I were to accept your premise that innocent people have nothing to fear if they are eventually exonerated, then should it be okay for police to search you in public without reasonable cause for drugs/weapons if public safety is increased? You're innocent, remember. What's the harm in giving up your privacy rights if it benefits society?

Would you like being treated that way? Would you give up your Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches? I doubt it. Not too many people would stand for it.

That's been my argument all along -- customers shouldn't have to sacrifice good customer service in exchange for goods/services. Stop being an apologist for bad customer service.

Your whole argument has been fallacious. It does not logically follow that poor customer service is the price that one pays for being a Dish customer and tolerating the purported tactics of the audit team.


----------



## Jacob S

I did not have a problem with Dish Network doing audits. I do, however, have a problem with them trying to audit receivers that are not even active and treat you like a criminal for something that you did not do. I hear of many reasons why some customers disconnect their service and it is because of how they are treated by CSR's sometimes. They represent the company.

What Allievi stated above is correct and goes along with what I am saying. I would like to know why they needed location id's on receivers that are not even active on the account. If they are going to do things like this then they need to give us an explaination and also ask us if we would like to release the receivers off of the account when we deactivate them to avoid these types of issues.


----------



## dfergie

BuckeyeChris said:


> And neither does your incongruous and faulty analogy. For most consumers, there are plenty of comparable service providers from which to choose if you don't like the service you receive. However, there is no alternative to the United States of America -- nowhere can you repatriate to and enjoy our same rights and opportunities. If only you had paid attention in high school English class, instead of probably getting high all time :icon_kiff, then maybe then you would have been able to come up with a proper analogy.
> 
> Tell me Mr-Rick, who has argued on this thread that Dish doesn't own these smartcards and are not within their rights to verify this information? It certainly wasn't I. If you re-read my posts, I clearly stated that Dish was probably within its rights of the terms and conditions.
> 
> Also, tell me, who on this thread has advocated that it's okay to steal satellite equipment and/or service?
> 
> If I were to accept your premise that innocent people have nothing to fear if they are eventually exonerated, then should it be okay for police to search you in public without reasonable cause for drugs/weapons if public safety is increased? You're innocent, remember. What's the harm in giving up your privacy rights if it benefits society?
> 
> Would you like being treated that way? Would you give up your Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches? I doubt it. Not too many people would stand for it.
> 
> That's been my argument all along -- customers shouldn't have to sacrifice good customer service in exchange for goods/services. Stop being an apologist for bad customer service.
> 
> Your whole argument has been fallacious. It does not logically follow that poor customer service is the price that one pays for being a Dish customer and tolerating the purported tactics of the audit team.


 What he said... Amen


----------



## cboylan3

BuckeyeChris said:


> Tell me Mr-Rick, who has argued on this thread that Dish doesn't own these smartcards and are not within their rights to verify this information? It certainly wasn't I. If you re-read my posts, I clearly stated that Dish was probably within its rights of the terms and conditions.


Buckeye - I dont see where he was argueing whether or not Dish owned the smartcards. Just a statement that was probably aimed at the possible question of how dish could do an audit.



BuckeyeChris said:


> Also, tell me, who on this thread has advocated that it's okay to steal satellite equipment and/or service?


again, I don't see an arguement. Just a statement. These audits are most likely to prevent/deter theft.



BuckeyeChris said:


> If I were to accept your premise that innocent people have nothing to fear if they are eventually exonerated, then should it be okay for police to search you in public without reasonable cause for drugs/weapons if public safety is increased? You're innocent, remember. What's the harm in giving up your privacy rights if it benefits society?
> 
> Would you like being treated that way? Would you give up your Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches? I doubt it. Not too many people would stand for it.


I agree with you 100%

However, it seems that most people have an issue with Dish essentially saying, "We have you on record as the last one to be in possession of our access card. We need you confirm it".

But people don't have an issue with D* sending out upwards of 200,000 letters demanding money for a legal product you may or may NOT have purchased AND demand you return your personal property to D*, even though it doesn't even belong to them  

I prefer E* way over D* way.


----------



## Mr-Rick

BuckeyeChris said:


> And neither does your incongruous and faulty analogy. For most consumers, there are plenty of comparable service providers from which to choose if you don't like the service you receive. However, there is no alternative to the United States of America -- nowhere can you repatriate to and enjoy our same rights and opportunities. If only you had paid attention in high school English class, instead of probably getting high all time :icon_kiff, then maybe then you would have been able to come up with a proper analogy.
> 
> Tell me Mr-Rick, who has argued on this thread that Dish doesn't own these smartcards and are not within their rights to verify this information? It certainly wasn't I. If you re-read my posts, I clearly stated that Dish was probably within its rights of the terms and conditions.
> 
> Also, tell me, who on this thread has advocated that it's okay to steal satellite equipment and/or service?
> 
> If I were to accept your premise that innocent people have nothing to fear if they are eventually exonerated, then should it be okay for police to search you in public without reasonable cause for drugs/weapons if public safety is increased? You're innocent, remember. What's the harm in giving up your privacy rights if it benefits society?
> 
> Would you like being treated that way? Would you give up your Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches? I doubt it. Not too many people would stand for it.
> 
> That's been my argument all along -- customers shouldn't have to sacrifice good customer service in exchange for goods/services. Stop being an apologist for bad customer service.
> 
> Your whole argument has been fallacious. It does not logically follow that poor customer service is the price that one pays for being a Dish customer and tolerating the purported tactics of the audit team.


Nice personal attack. Really, Canadians would take umbrage with your statements as would any citizen from a western civilized country. Sounds like you are a typical FOX News viewer who thinks that everyone outside of the US still uses outhouses and have no political freedoms. Your naïveté is amusing.

Agreed there was NO discussion where the ownership of the smartcards were at issue nor was there a discussion promoting/advocating theft. Don't deviate from the issue. It was your cavalier attitude that you would take your business elsewhere if DISH were to call and do a receiver audit. The tone of the message was "How dare they do this to me, and if they did that to me, I'm deactivating." My response is fine, deactivate. DISH is within their rights to do this. It's their game; their rules. Bad customer service? No way unless they are rude.

But the bulk of your message (80%) is politically charged for which you are showing your lack of knowledge in this matter. I suggest you read the Patriot Act, actually download it and read it. Also, haven't you noticed the new rules on the NY subway system enacted this past week?? ALL packages are subject to random search by HAND. AND if the NY police officer SEES contraband that is not a terror threat, i.e. drugs, etc. that person will be arrested for that infraction. So, are they looking for bombs or are they looking for contraband?

So, I guess those freedoms you speak of are slowly diminishing and you are not even aware of it. Where are all the persons you thought that would "not stand for it"? No mass protests in NY. Are law abiding citizens putting up with it? Yes. Why? Because an innocent person wouldn't be bothered by it.

If you are sober and you drive up on a sobriety checkpoint are you going to argue your rights are being violated and refuse to comply? I bet you will be as compliant as everyone else.

When DISH comes a calling and wants to know the location ID and Receiver ID for each receiver in the home, understand where they are coming from and politely comply. It's not bad customer service, unless you are hiding something, ofcourse.


----------



## BartmanLA

Well I just got hit with this gestapo tactic for the reciever audit. I don't have any of the receivers I have plugged into phone lines simply because 2 of them are in bedrooms of roommates I share my house with, and they have completely separate phone numbers in those rooms so plugging those boxes into their line would make them "suspicous" so in order to avoid that I don't plug in any of them. 

The CSR that was attempting to verify the information was not only rude, but condescending and threatening when I tried to explain to her that I wouldn't be able to give her the information on at least one of the receivers because the roommate in question is a long distance bus driver and is gone freqently for WEEKS at a time. She gave me 7 days only to contact them back and be able to verify the infomation LIVE on the phone with them in a step by step process or they would remove those boxes from my account and I would NEVER be able to reactivate them again on this account. 

I have NEVER been mistreated by a company in this manner, I asked multiple times the information that they were requiring and she refused to tell me, considering I OWN all my receivers and have for YEARS I think I have the right to know what information they're taking on me! Her one comment to me was "I have 100% authority over your account", when I told her that what she was asking and threatening me with was unacceptable, she used this veiled threat to disconnect my boxes that aren't verified. I am extremely upset about at this entire matter.


----------



## jsanders

BartmanLA said:


> Well I just got hit with this gestapo tactic for the reciever audit. I don't have any of the receivers I have plugged into phone lines simply because 2 of them are in bedrooms of roommates I share my house with, and they have completely separate phone numbers in those rooms so plugging those boxes into their line would make them "suspicous" so in order to avoid that I don't plug in any of them.


Does dish allow this situation to exist? Three residences in one roof, all using the same account? They have separate phone numbers, should they technically have separate satTV accounts too? I don't know what the answer to that question is, it appears to be a grey area, I'm curious if anyone knows.


----------



## BartmanLA

It isn't seperate residences I RENT these rooms out to people I include the DBS because I have the rooms already set up for them. Its just part of the included rent, just like my internet connection I have a router set up and they share my connection with it. There's nothing sinister or alterior about it.


----------



## DoyleS

Roomates in the same house is a fairly common situation although typically it is Cable TV and they don't care how many sets you hook up as they control the distribution to that physical address. With Sat it is a different story as receivers can easily be moved to other locations. It would seem that the easiest solution would be to hook all of these up to a single phone line although it might be a hassle to wire it. Typically phone line has 4 wires and since only 2 are used, it is easy to bring 2 lines into the same location. I wonder if there was something that prompted the audit. I guess only Bart can tell us that. 

..Doyle


----------



## JohnH

Since they pay rent and you said it is included in the rent, it is a commercial setup. There are various types of Residential Commercial accounts.


----------



## Mikey

JohnH, you beat me to the punch.


----------



## James

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/RCA/index.shtml

"F. Additional Receivers. To independently tune additional televisions within your home, a separate DISH Network receiver is required for each television. DISH Network will allow you to place up to five additional receivers on your account. Each additional receiver would be authorized to receive the same Services as your initial receiver. DISH Network will charge you a reduced monthly fee (Additional Receiver Authorization Fee) for each additional receiver added to your account. *This option is only available if your initial DISH Network receiver and all additional receiver(s) are located at the same residence and are continuously connected to the same telephone line*. If you desire to receive Services at two different locations, you must open a separate account for each location. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly use a single account for the purpose of authorizing Services for multiple DISH Network receivers that are not all located in the same residence and connected to the same phone line. If we later determine that you did, we may terminate your Services and, in addition to all other applicable fees, you agree to pay us the difference between the amounts actually received by us and the full retail price for the Services authorized for each DISH Network DBS receiver on the account, whether owned by you or not. The payment of that amount and/or the termination of Services shall not prejudice our ability to exercise any other rights and remedies we may have under this Agreement, at law, in equity, or otherwise."

His extra receivers CAN be used by his room mates.


----------



## JohnH

Amounts to a cover charge.


----------



## jsanders

James said:


> http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/RCA/index.shtml
> 
> *This option is only available if your initial DISH Network receiver and all additional receiver(s) are located at the same residence and are continuously connected to the same telephone line*.
> 
> His extra receivers CAN be used by his room mates.


It is interesting to note what BartmanLA said:


BartmanLA said:


> The CSR that was attempting to verify the information was not only rude, but condescending and threatening when I tried to explain to her that I wouldn't be able to give her the information on at least one of the receivers because the roommate in question is a long distance bus driver and is gone freqently for WEEKS at a time.


If it really is Bartman's residence, then he should just be able to walk in that room and tell the CSR what the location ID is. He can't though, because he does not reside in that room, his roommate does.

I think JohnH might have an interesting thought by calling it a Residential Commercial Account. Can anyone tell us more about this? Do you have an account like this BartmanLA?

Also note what it says in that link from james:


http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/RCA/index.shtml said:


> You agree that you will not directly or indirectly use a single account for the purpose of authorizing Services for multiple DISH Network receivers that are not all located in the same residence *and* connected to the same phone line.


It wants them all to be in the same house *and* the same phone line. Why would they put it this way?? I think they have the roommate thing in mind. Regardless, BartmanLA is stuck in this situation, and would be in violation if he connected with different phones.


----------



## BartmanLA

I just talked to Mike at the Colorado Reciever Audit office, he was shocked to hear how not only ONE CSR treated me but how her supervisor on a subsequent call back treated me. So this is the deal I have a LARGE apartment, multiple bedrooms each roommate pays a flat rent that includes ALL utilites (electric, DSL, Satellite, & gas) I am the lease holder for ONE apartment, I respect the PRIVACY and security of each roommate and they each lock their rooms when they are not here. Also they do not share MY phone line, one has his own and the other one uses a cellphone. One of the roommates is a long distance bus driver and he is gone for weeks at a time. I will NOT break into his room and violate his privacy and security just to satisfy a demand over the phone by someone at dishnetwork to give them receiver information. Hell it was 10AM in the morning, I'm retired but my roomates are not and would be working at that time anyways! I explained the entire matter to Mike and he was very understanding and offered me many alternatives and even got upset when I told him how I was treated, especially by ED. He said he would have a LONG talk with the people responsible for training the Audit Team members and make some changes about how customers are treated and how the information is requested for the future (we'll see, but I am hoping he is going to follow through with it). Bottom line is I was labelled and made to feel as if I had done something horribly wrong and had to defend myself, and no matter who the company is, that should not happen. After all I think in this country we are still considered innocent until proven otherwise, thats how I was asking to be treated.


----------



## BuckeyeChris

Mr-Rick said:


> Nice personal attack. Really, Canadians would take umbrage with your statements as would any citizen from a western civilized country. Sounds like you are a typical FOX News viewer who thinks that everyone outside of the US still uses outhouses and have no political freedoms. Your naïveté is amusing.
> 
> Agreed there was NO discussion where the ownership of the smartcards were at issue nor was there a discussion promoting/advocating theft. Don't deviate from the issue. It was your cavalier attitude that you would take your business elsewhere if DISH were to call and do a receiver audit. The tone of the message was "How dare they do this to me, and if they did that to me, I'm deactivating." My response is fine, deactivate. DISH is within their rights to do this. It's their game; their rules. Bad customer service? No way unless they are rude.
> 
> But the bulk of your message (80%) is politically charged for which you are showing your lack of knowledge in this matter. I suggest you read the Patriot Act, actually download it and read it. Also, haven't you noticed the new rules on the NY subway system enacted this past week?? ALL packages are subject to random search by HAND. AND if the NY police officer SEES contraband that is not a terror threat, i.e. drugs, etc. that person will be arrested for that infraction. So, are they looking for bombs or are they looking for contraband?
> 
> So, I guess those freedoms you speak of are slowly diminishing and you are not even aware of it. Where are all the persons you thought that would "not stand for it"? No mass protests in NY. Are law abiding citizens putting up with it? Yes. Why? Because an innocent person wouldn't be bothered by it.
> 
> If you are sober and you drive up on a sobriety checkpoint are you going to argue your rights are being violated and refuse to comply? I bet you will be as compliant as everyone else.
> 
> When DISH comes a calling and wants to know the location ID and Receiver ID for each receiver in the home, understand where they are coming from and politely comply. It's not bad customer service, unless you are hiding something, ofcourse.


Vindicated again! Another testimonial about the wonderful customer service from the audit team, this time offered up by Bartman. Oh, how wonderful!

Oh sure, you'll say Bartman is hiding something -- he deserved the abuse. Looks like we have another apologist ... and one who is Canadian and likes to lecture Americans about politics. Nice, how original. 

By the way, if you want to debate politics, take it over to the Potpourri forum. That is the place for such topics (but for how much longer, no one is quite sure). I only mentioned the police and the Fourth Amendent as a hypothetical example. Don't assume that you know my political leanings/attitude based on that.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

While I understand that Dish is trying to stop stacking of accounts, I don't think the Gestapo Audit team is the way to go. They need some other way to keep up with the receivers other than the phone line connection. 

I understand the new dishcom technology will allow the one dishcom receiver , say the 942, to communicate with the other dishcom receivers and call out for all of them. This would make it possible for one receiver to do all the calls , but you still need a phone line connection. 

Why don't they come up with a way for all the dish receivers to communicate with the lnb on the dish and then send this data back to Dish. Then you wouldn't need to have a phone line and it would help for cell phone customers as well. I don't know how this could be accomplished but this would be a good time to develope the technology, so when they switch out to mpeg4 they could make all the new receivers hook up and call out through the lnb instead of the phone line. This would be the way to prevent stacking. If one of your receivers is not in your house then the lnb would detect it and , barring a rv waiver, they would promptly turn off that receiver. 

They didn't care about the phone line 8 1/2 years ago when I got Dish. I had a phone connection for both of my receivers because when I had the dishplayer 7100 model I wanted Web Tv. 

Last summer I had no landline due to going cell phone only. I received a phone call on my cell while I was in the car driving. The audit team lady demanded that I give them all of my receiver numbers ,location ids, etc. I told her number one I wasn't home and that I was driving down the road to another town, so I couldn't accomplish this. She said :"When was I going to be home?" I said I really don't know as I was going to town on my day off to go to a movie and eat out at a resteraunt with my family. She said to call them back immediately when I got home. I got home at 4:30pm and all of my receivers were deactivated, and I called Dish and they transfered me back to the audit team. The guy now said that he would call me back as he wasn't ready to do an audit at that time. Around 5:30 he called back and we ran through all 4 of the receivers numbers, location ids , etc. He said well you passed the audit so he would turn them on "only this time", and that I better connect them all to a working phone line. I went cellphone only to save money and I wasn't going to connect a phone line just to make Dish happy. The audit people were rude , accusatory in their tones, and made me feel like I was a criminal. Not very conducive for business when you consider that the "customer is always supposed to be right." All in all a terrible experience and my wife was quite pissed off by it too. 

This year I went with SBC /yahoo internet so I have a land line again. I had 2 721s a 510 and a 921 dvr last summer. I now have 2 /942s and a leased 522 dvr. I can only connect the 2 /942s to a landline so I can't connect the 522. I called the dish techs and they said they could just add a phone line connection fee for 4.99 , but he couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't get audited again. So I am going to turn off the 522 and give it back to Dish since I leased it. I would rather do without the other dvr , even though we use it, to avoid another call from the dish Audit team.

Really a new technology that communicates through the lnb would be the way to go so it would kill two birds with one stone. NO more need for phone lines, which would help people who go all cell phone, and no more stacking would be allowed. Maybe they could do this with a software update that adds this feature. If they keep up with this audit team and their gestapo tactics , I feel that Dish will lose more money from lost customers ,than they will from people stacking their accounts.


----------



## Mr-Rick

BuckeyeChris said:


> Vindicated again! Another testimonial about the wonderful customer service from the audit team, this time offered up by Bartman. Oh, how wonderful!
> 
> Oh sure, you'll say Bartman is hiding something -- he deserved the abuse. Looks like we have another apologist ... and one who is Canadian and likes to lecture Americans about politics. Nice, how original.
> 
> By the way, if you want to debate politics, take it over to the Potpourri forum. That is the place for such topics (but for how much longer, no one is quite sure). I only mentioned the police and the Fourth Amendent as a hypothetical example. Don't assume that you know my political leanings/attitude based on that.


Is english a second language for you? Did you attend ANY college or university? This is what I said (Refer back to my post):

It's their game; their rules. Bad customer service? No way unless they are rude.

UNLESS THEY ARE RUDE. In this instance with Bartman; they were rude which is unacceptable. They can get the information they need without being rude to Bartman and it should not be condoned. So you won no argument there.

So now that we have determined you can't read, let alone hold a logical discussion, I would certainly hope you would refrain on trying to guess where I am from. You somewhat suggest I am Canadian, sorry, born in Parma, Ohio a suburb of Cleveland.


----------



## Mr-Rick

Mike D-CO5 said:


> While I understand that Dish is trying to stop stacking of accounts, I don't think the Gestapo Audit team is the way to go. They need some other way to keep up with the receivers other than the phone line connection.
> 
> I understand the new dishcom technology will allow the one dishcom receiver , say the 942, to communicate with the other dishcom receivers and call out for all of them. This would make it possible for one receiver to do all the calls , but you still need a phone line connection.
> 
> Why don't they come up with a way for all the dish receivers to communicate with the lnb on the dish and then send this data back to Dish. Then you wouldn't need to have a phone line and it would help for cell phone customers as well. I don't know how this could be accomplished but this would be a good time to develope the technology, so when they switch out to mpeg4 they could make all the new receivers hook up and call out through the lnb instead of the phone line. This would be the way to prevent stacking. If one of your receivers is not in your house then the lnb would detect it and , barring a rv waiver, they would promptly turn off that receiver.
> 
> They didn't care about the phone line 8 1/2 years ago when I got Dish. I had a phone connection for both of my receivers because when I had the dishplayer 7100 model I wanted Web Tv.
> 
> Last summer I had no landline due to going cell phone only. I received a phone call on my cell while I was in the car driving. The audit team lady demanded that I give them all of my receiver numbers ,location ids, etc. I told her number one I wasn't home and that I was driving down the road to another town, so I couldn't accomplish this. She said :"When was I going to be home?" I said I really don't know as I was going to town on my day off to go to a movie and eat out at a resteraunt with my family. She said to call them back immediately when I got home. I got home at 4:30pm and all of my receivers were deactivated, and I called Dish and they transfered me back to the audit team. The guy now said that he would call me back as he wasn't ready to do an audit at that time. Around 5:30 he called back and we ran through all 4 of the receivers numbers, location ids , etc. He said well you passed the audit so he would turn them on "only this time", and that I better connect them all to a working phone line. I went cellphone only to save money and I wasn't going to connect a phone line just to make Dish happy. The audit people were rude , accusatory in their tones, and made me feel like I was a criminal. Not very conducive for business when you consider that the "customer is always supposed to be right." All in all a terrible experience and my wife was quite pissed off by it too.
> 
> This year I went with SBC /yahoo internet so I have a land line again. I had 2 721s a 510 and a 921 dvr last summer. I now have 2 /942s and a leased 522 dvr. I can only connect the 2 /942s to a landline so I can't connect the 522. I called the dish techs and they said they could just add a phone line connection fee for 4.99 , but he couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't get audited again. So I am going to turn off the 522 and give it back to Dish since I leased it. I would rather do without the other dvr , even though we use it, to avoid another call from the dish Audit team.
> 
> Really a new technology that communicates through the lnb would be the way to go so it would kill two birds with one stone. NO more need for phone lines, which would help people who go all cell phone, and no more stacking would be allowed. Maybe they could do this with a software update that adds this feature. If they keep up with this audit team and their gestapo tactics , I feel that Dish will lose more money from lost customers ,than they will from people stacking their accounts.


You bring up a good point. Some folks have cell phones and others have VoIP which won't work with the receivers (so I have been told). Are you able to get a phone extender on the 522? You know the kind that uses the electrical line as a phone line? This way you can connect the 522 to a phone line and be happy again.


----------



## Jacob S

I agree, they need to implement a way for the receivers to communicate with each other and/or with the lnbf's to make sure they are all at the same location instead of accusing people and irritating them on the phone like this or require the land line phoneline. Too many people are going to cell phone online service. I also think that Dish Network stands to lose more money from lost customers than from people stacking their accounts with the way they are doing things. I have been thinking more and more about switching to DirecTv next year as the advantages seem to become more and more as time goes by but I have been comfortable with Dish Network and would rather stay with them if I can.


----------



## BuckeyeChris

Mr-Rick said:


> *Is english a second language for you?* Did you attend ANY college or university? This is what I said (Refer back to my post):
> 
> It's their game; their rules. Bad customer service? No way unless they are rude.
> 
> UNLESS THEY ARE RUDE. In this instance with Bartman; they were rude which is unacceptable. They can get the information they need without being rude to Bartman and it should not be condoned. So you won no argument there.
> 
> So now that we have determined you can't read, let alone hold a logical discussion, I would certainly hope you would refrain on trying to guess where I am from. You somewhat suggest I am Canadian, sorry, born in Parma, Ohio a suburb of Cleveland.



English, in the sentence I bolded above, should be capitalized -- always capitalized (unless you are talking billiards).


Your use of a semicolon in the second paragraph was wrong. Use a semicolon either to help sort out a long list of items, or you can use it to separate closely related independent clauses.


In your third paragraph, the first sentence "UNLESS THEY ARE RUDE" is a sentence fragment. Next sentence, oh dear, you have used the semicolon incorrectly again.


Finally, you ended a sentence in the fourth paragraph with a preposition; that's considered bad grammar by many.

Thanks for playing Johnny! :wave:

Oh, yeah, my mistake about being Canadian. With your poor English, you really must be American.


----------



## AllieVi

Implementing new strategies for identifying the location of receivers doesn't help when the older ones don't have the technology embedded. That would be (tens of?) millions of existing receivers. The only way to check today appears to be the dreaded audit call. No one has provided an alternative.

This discussion caused me to do what I've avoided for the years I've been with DISH - connect my receivers to my phone line and avoid the call.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

Mr-Rick said:


> You bring up a good point. Some folks have cell phones and others have VoIP which won't work with the receivers (so I have been told). Are you able to get a phone extender on the 522? You know the kind that uses the electrical line as a phone line? This way you can connect the 522 to a phone line and be happy again.


 I have never heard of a phone extender , I really don't know what that is. I have Sbc dsl and I am using a wireless phone jack for one of my tvs and a regular phone connection for my other 942. I am all tapped out on connections. I will just let the 522 go back and use both of my 942s in dual mode . Less recording time , but no more audit phone calls.

When they go all mpeg4 and start converting all of the existing receivers to the new mpeg4 models, that is when they could use the new technology to communicate with the lnb . They could include this software in all of the newer receivers so it would communicate with the lnb and keep up the connection with Dish. Eventually all the receivers will be swapped out so they could fix this problem in the next 3 years when the conversion is over.


----------



## jsanders

Mike D-CO5 said:


> When they go all mpeg4 and start converting all of the existing receivers to the new mpeg4 models, that is when they could use the new technology to communicate with the lnb . They could include this software in all of the newer receivers so it would communicate with the lnb and keep up the connection with Dish. Eventually all the receivers will be swapped out so they could fix this problem in the next 3 years when the conversion is over.


Hi Mike,

Would you mind giving a little more detail about what you mean by communicating with the LNB? I've seen some mention this a few times now, I'm not sure what it is. My first guess is you are referring to some way to communicate with though an uplink, but that can't be right.

Personally, I just wish I could drop the phone line bit, and connect my 942 directly to the WiFi in my house. You know some hacker is going to come up with a E* virus down the line though! If all of the receivers have the same gateway address from a local access point, they are more than likely at the same house. Then, I could also do the occasional web surfing with a 1080i display. I could also schedule recordings from work! The downside is that Dish could become "Big Brother" and compile metrics of everything I watch! Oh well, I like to watch the Animania channel program, "Felix the Cat", and HDNet World News Report. Don't much care if they learn that.


----------



## AllieVi

If I'm not mistaken, Canadians *are* Americans...


----------



## Darkman

... and as others - They both belong to the Man-kind


----------



## Mike D-CO5

jsanders said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> Would you mind giving a little more detail about what you mean by communicating with the LNB? I've seen some mention this a few times now, I'm not sure what it is. My first guess is you are referring to some way to communicate with though an uplink, but that can't be right.
> 
> Personally, I just wish I could drop the phone line bit, and connect my 942 directly to the WiFi in my house. You know some hacker is going to come up with a E* virus down the line though! If all of the receivers have the same gateway address from a local access point, they are more than likely at the same house. Then, I could also do the occasional web surfing with a 1080i display. I could also schedule recordings from work! The downside is that Dish could become "Big Brother" and compile metrics of everything I watch! Oh well, I like to watch the Animania channel program, "Felix the Cat", and HDNet World News Report. Don't much care if they learn that.


 I really don't have a way for the lnb to communicate with the receivers, I just thought this would be a way that Dish could do it if they could invent it. It would probably require some two way transmission for the lnb to both receive signals from Dish and transmit signals from the receivers back to Dish. I could care less if Dish compiles data on my viewing habits as I have nothing to hide. Maybe when Dish offers some kind of internet that would be a possibility. But then again they would probably want you to connect a phone line to the modem for the computer to work with their internet. Then we would be back where we started from.


----------



## jsanders

Mike, are you suggesting that they have some sort of serial number in the LNB that the receiver records, thus proof of same dwelling place? I don't think this would work better than the existing system, because you could just write down this info to the E* auditors and still be account stacking. The current location ID method seems more robust. They can't do uplinks to the E* satellites either. Two-way satellite communication generally is a lot more complicated and expensive. It also requires a professional install, because at microwave frequencies, transmitting that much power would be a biohazzard. There are two spots of particular attention, one is your eyes, the second is a little below the belt. These places are microwave sensitive because they don't regulate heat very well. Can you hear the self install complaints of infertility because the installer stood in front of the microwave transmitter? :stickman: Hence, the need for professional installation for transmitters. Not a lot of bang for the buck from E*'s viewpoint.

Obviously, the land phone is going away, and a new method for tracking receivers will be needed. Somebody needs to figure out how!


----------



## Mike D-CO5

I am not suggesting anything like that. I am suggesting that the lnb would transmit the receivers in the house by some technology that hasn't been invented yet. Maybe a two way form of transmission like internet that would transmit back to Dish how many receivers are connected in the house. But I have said before , it needs to be invented and they should take advantage with the mpeg4 conversion to make it a reality for the reasons that I have already talked about; customers with no landlines and to stop stacking.


----------



## jsanders

Okay, let's try it one more time! It sounds like you are saying that the LNB, or possibly a separate device, should be a communications hub for all of the receivers in the house. The part you haven't figured out yet is how this hub will communicate to the mother ship, however, a simple version of this hub could be simply connected to the phone line to let E* know what receivers are connected to it. If you have six receivers, only the hub needs to communicate with E*.

Did I get it right this time?


----------



## Ron Barry

Moving forward. If the new receivers all have the Dish Net technology that uses the electrical lines then what they could do is have all the receivers talk to each other and the ones that are connected send the count and receiver information to the Mothership. Then the Mothership could do an audit and validate. Maybe this is way Dish decided to go with a electrical based communication mechanism. You can't unplug it? With Eithernet you can. Maybe this is a long term goal. 

However it still does not solve the phone line issue. Maybe what they need to do is offer a convertor that then will allow the Unit to use an Internet connection. Heck I still think this is needed so they can do cool things like.. Scheduling a remote Timer while on vacation. Side benefit would be that they could use this two way mechanism combined with the Dish Net technology to provide an audit system without user intervention. 

Not sure if it is called Dish Net.. but what ever the box to box communcation bus that was being shown at Tech Summit. 

Personally, I could see this as a double solution.


----------



## oldave

Alternatively, the master receiver on an account communicates (wirelessly, or via the coax to the switch) a code to the other receivers on the account - if the receiver doesn't get that code, it goes inactive. 

Possibly allow up to a week or 10 days to allow for taking a receiver to the vacation home (though I don't believe this is technically "legal" under the terms and conditions), and waive it for RV subs (specify the receiver that will be used in the RV?).

Of course this would require new technology - but they're going to have to swap out all the receivers shortly.


----------



## Ron Barry

oldave, 

I believe your model would work if all the new Dish Receivers have Dish Net technology in them in the long run. 

Dont' see Dish adding Wireless anytime soon. 

The coax to switch thing is interesting.


----------



## jsanders

This could easily be done with the internet. If you connect each receiver to the internet, it may be difficult to tell if all of the receivers are all in one dwelling because they all have a unique IP address within the ISP's subnet (worst case). However, if they all communicate with a hub, then this hub can use the internet with one IP address and verify that all receivers are in the same place. Problem solved. This hub could also just use a simple cell phone link that calls a 1-800 number wich pays for the call. Just plug the communications hub in and go!


----------



## Mike D-CO5

Very good suggestions here. I hope Dish and Directv are reading this and taking notes. Maybe in the next 3 years we will see it become a reality and the Audit team can become a thing of the past along with the land line phone connection requirement.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

jsanders said:


> Okay, let's try it one more time! It sounds like you are saying that the LNB, or possibly a separate device, should be a communications hub for all of the receivers in the house. The part you haven't figured out yet is how this hub will communicate to the mother ship, however, a simple version of this hub could be simply connected to the phone line to let E* know what receivers are connected to it. If you have six receivers, only the hub needs to communicate with E*.
> 
> Did I get it right this time?


 Yes that is the jist of it. It looks like others here have given suggestions on how to make it a reality.


----------



## Jacob S

I believe the communication of all the receivers to the same lnbf's/switch could be a very good possibility in the future. Another perhaps more realistic possibility is to have multi-tuner receivers where they will make the receiver upgradable easily to where you can add a tuner yourself but it has to be in the main unit in order to operate and only that one main unit will be allowed to be active on the account. Another possibility would be to swap out, for example, a single tuner receiver with a receiver that does three, four, or whatever number of tuners you need for your household. Each time you would need more tuners you would have to have it swapped out as only one receiver would be allowed on an account. They could implement this in the MPEG-4 swapout. This is probably what we will see in the future because these things do not require a phoneline to detect where receivers are at and make sure other receivers cannot be taken somewhere else. The simplest way would be for the receivers to communicate with each other over the power lines as they would all have to be plugged in.


----------



## oldave

Ron Barry said:


> oldave,
> 
> I believe your model would work if all the new Dish Receivers have Dish Net technology in them in the long run.
> 
> Dont' see Dish adding Wireless anytime soon.
> 
> The coax to switch thing is interesting.


The way I see it, they're gonna have to swap out every receiver... now's the time to build in technology to confirm that all receivers on an account are in the same location and address the account stacking problem.

The receivers already communicate with the switch... and that's the common point of connection for all receivers in a residence. What I'm proposing differs little from ethernet frames... the main receiver learns via the data stream the receivers that are authorized on the account... and learns the code to send them... it then broadcasts that code on the wire... the receivers get it, and continue to operate...

Vastly oversimplified, of course, but *that* is a solution that'll work.


----------



## Jacob S

It's probably now or never at this point to build it within the receiver. They could implement something in the future to where the additional receivers will not receive a signal or authorization in a special device between the dish and receiver to help eliminate certain issues.


----------



## oldave

Jacob S said:


> I believe the communication of all the receivers to the same lnbf's/switch could be a very good possibility in the future. Another perhaps more realistic possibility is to have multi-tuner receivers where they will make the receiver upgradable easily to where you can add a tuner yourself but it has to be in the main unit in order to operate and only that one main unit will be allowed to be active on the account. Another possibility would be to swap out, for example, a single tuner receiver with a receiver that does three, four, or whatever number of tuners you need for your household. Each time you would need more tuners you would have to have it swapped out as only one receiver would be allowed on an account. They could implement this in the MPEG-4 swapout. This is probably what we will see in the future because these things do not require a phoneline to detect where receivers are at and make sure other receivers cannot be taken somewhere else. The simplest way would be for the receivers to communicate with each other over the power lines as they would all have to be plugged in.


Nooooo.... I don't *want* a central receiver that then serves every other TV in the house...

As for power line communication... fer godsake, please don't force that crap down our throats... the whole BPL thing is destined to fail... if you start using it, say goodbye to AM radio (and a whole bunch of other radio bands - but that's off topic here).


----------



## Ron Barry

oldave,

Wel the power line communication was what Dish net was or what ever marketing term they used. I would have liked to have seen a wireless solution myself, but I do understand why the did not put one in. Same goes with ethernet. Not sure how well the power line solution works, since I myself have never experienced it. 

The thing I like about your idea is that it does not require two way communication. Also does not use an out of band solution to provide the security.


----------



## kb7oeb

I don't know about other people but when I first got Directv it was much cheaper to put up two single lnb dishs instead of buying a dual lnb. If I wanted to add a third tuner to my account I would probably put up another Dish 500 before I would pay for a quad lnb.

For a couple years with directv and about a year with dishnetwork I had two phone lines and it was more convenient to connect each receiver to opposite phone lines. Never had a problem and never was questioned about it by either company.


----------



## jsanders

An 802.11B, the 11mb card, goes for about $12 now. I see no reason why E* can't put those in the receivers for us that have WiFi connections.

As far as swapping out all of the receivers with the switch to MPEG4, that is very unrealistic. They are doing MPEG4 in stages, the first one being to encode only HD channels that way, because they use the most bandwidth, and the subscriber base is smaller. Your basic SD receiver, or SD PVR isn't going to be switching to MPEG4 anytime soon. Since a lot of people have a mix of SD and HD receivers, or even just a lot of SD receivers, the HD MPEG4 switch timeframe is irrelevant to solving this problem.


----------



## Ron Barry

My guess the reason why the decided not to go with WiFi was security reasons. Also think that might be the reason for no Ethernet. That is my guess. 

If you can do a solution that can be implemented with current technology, that is the way one would want to go for sure. Using existing cabeling to transmit state is a good one if it is doable for sure.


----------



## kb7oeb

It would be very easy to make two receivers in separate locations appear to be coming from the same IP address.


----------



## Ron Barry

Not for the average person that is account stacking. I would thinking spoofing an IP address would not be an easy thing for that person. In anycase, I would doubt that Dish would be going this route.


----------



## Bill R

Ron Barry said:


> Not for the average person that is account stacking. I would thinking spoofing an IP address would not be an easy thing for that person. In anycase, I would doubt that Dish would be going this route.


Are you kidding? It would take about 24 hours after DISH implemented IP verification (which I agree with you, they will never do) for IP spoofing information to be available on the internet for DISH receivers. And believe me, dishonest people (like account stackers) DO use the internet.


----------



## jsanders

IP address spoofing is not a problem, that is why E* should use a communications hub as per Mike D-CO5's idea. Make it so the individual receiver can't directly connect to the internet, but has to do it by authenticating through a centralized access point. The receiver doesn't call the mother ship, the access point tells the mother ship what receivers are connected to it. One access point per household. IP address spoofing would be pointless.

There is no reason they can't do 128 bit encryption when you do a PPV purchase, or a bill pay.


----------



## Ron Barry

Bill R said:


> Are you kidding? It would take about 24 hours after DISH implemented IP verification (which I agree with you, they will never do) for IP spoofing information to be available on the internet for DISH receivers. And believe me, dishonest people (like account stackers) DO use the internet.


Well maybe I don't know the type of person a Account Stacker would be. Never actually met one.  I am sure if there is a way to crack it that it would be found and placed on the net. I am just not sure how technically adapt an account stacker would be.

It is one thing to just share your neighbors account. does not take a lot of technical savy. It is another thing to spoof IP addresses. Maybe I am not given the account stacker enough technical savy credit.


----------



## oldave

jsanders said:


> IP address spoofing is not a problem, that is why E* should use a communications hub as per Mike D-CO5's idea. Make it so the individual receiver can't directly connect to the internet, but has to do it by authenticating through a centralized access point. The receiver doesn't call the mother ship, the access point tells the mother ship what receivers are connected to it. One access point per household. IP address spoofing would be pointless.
> 
> There is no reason they can't do 128 bit encryption when you do a PPV purchase, or a bill pay.


With VPNs, it would be trivial to tunnel in and report the receiver as being on the local network.

Receivers already send commands to switches. There's no reason they can't talk to a central (main) receiver on the account, and let that box phone home.


----------



## Jacob S

Maybe they would implement more than one of these things to further deter those that do things like this such as communication over the power line and only a one receiver requirement with the specific amount of tuners needed which may be able to be upgraded. If a receiver would detect another receiver on the same power line then one with the lowest number or both would deactivate then the receiver get coded and information may be sent to them. To go about this further they could have another slot for the receivers to where there is another card and each month when you get your bill you get a new card and send the extra card with your payment to Dish Network. The information on the card would indicate whether the receiver was in the correct location or not at all times. This would allow Dish Network to know if they were all at the same location even if there is no two way communication. I doubt that would be implemented though. 

Eventually broadband over the powerline would probably become available to everyone in one form or another (or at least wirelessly) even if there are other broadband services due to the fact that everything requiring power for the most part plugs into an outlet (unless you supply your own power). Every electrical device you plug in would be interactive in the future to receive and transmit data. It would be like a different type of internet broadband service just for those appliance companies. Even if the broadband by powerlines doesnt make it they could have wireless transmitters and receivers in each appliance using the airwaves to connect to the internet communicating with their servers. So many changes and possibilities in the future that could come our way.


----------



## jsanders

Jacob S said:


> Even if the broadband by powerlines doesnt make it they could have wireless transmitters and receivers in each appliance using the airwaves to connect to the internet communicating with their servers. So many changes and possibilities in the future that could come our way.


That has limitations. If bandwidth is exhausted with a system of wires, you just add more wires. If your bandwidth is exhausted with a wireless frequency spectrum, you are in trouble. You can't add more space for more spectrum to reside in. You can't connect everything wirelessly at the same time!


----------



## oldave

Broadband over powerline (BPL) is a bad idea in so many ways... here's hoping it never becomes available in its current implementation.

And what makes you think Granny's got any kind of network connectivity?

You have to get Internet and a router/switch/hub to get Dish? Or D*? Hell, if that's the case, let's just concede defeat and give all the subscriptions over to the cable companies now.

You and I have Internet access... but not everybody does. 

Using existing cabling is the simplest solution, doesn't require lots of changes, additional connections, purchase of a router/switch/hub, etc... 

C'mon gang, you're makin' it more complex than it needs to be (and it's gotta be purely simple for Joe Sixpack, or it ain't gonna fly).

One receiver is the main one on the account... all other receivers get their authorization from that receiver, via the coax... if they don't get it (say, in a week or 10 days), they stop working. Simple. Easy. No need to ever phone home... the provider sends the auth keys to the main receiver active on the account, other receivers get it via the coax (and no other way)... pretty secure there, too.


----------



## KKlare

Using the coax has at least 3 problems: the use of separate dishes in the same house, transmission through switches, and detection with unknown hardware required.

Could they use phone line coupling, as required now, to send a non-dialed signal between them to concatenate all receiver information to be sent out by 800 number? Is it any better than having each receiver dial out as now? Guess not. Still the cell phone-VOIP problems?

Just grin and wire it?
-Ken


----------



## Ron Barry

oldave said:


> Broadband over powerline (BPL) is a bad idea in so many ways... here's hoping it never becomes available in its current implementation.
> 
> And what makes you think Granny's got any kind of network connectivity?
> 
> You have to get Internet and a router/switch/hub to get Dish? Or D*? Hell, if that's the case, let's just concede defeat and give all the subscriptions over to the cable companies now.
> 
> You and I have Internet access... but not everybody does.
> 
> Using existing cabling is the simplest solution, doesn't require lots of changes, additional connections, purchase of a router/switch/hub, etc...
> 
> C'mon gang, you're makin' it more complex than it needs to be (and it's gotta be purely simple for Joe Sixpack, or it ain't gonna fly).
> 
> One receiver is the main one on the account... all other receivers get their authorization from that receiver, via the coax... if they don't get it (say, in a week or 10 days), they stop working. Simple. Easy. No need to ever phone home... the provider sends the auth keys to the main receiver active on the account, other receivers get it via the coax (and no other way)... pretty secure there, too.


First off. I don't think I said welcome back Dave, :welcome_s. I noticed you have been a member for a long time but with that low of a post count you either have been lurking for a long time or you have returned. THe other possibility is that you are very selective in your posts.... Either case.. Welcome back.

As to your solution, It has a lot of merit. THe reason I suggested the Dish Net way was because I was not aware you could do receiver to receiver communication through the Sat Coax. If this is possible, this is definitely worth investigation if Dish is listening.

As you pointed out, any IP solution would require a network connection and that is just not feasable for this type of deployment.

My solution, though has some merit still has the problem of legacy equipment and I would guess that would also make it not deployable.

If two way communication is acheivable through the coax, I concede on your suggestion :bowdown:. It has two strong points that the other suggestions could not address. One, legacy equipment and two no extra external requirments.

The added benefit even is no phone line.. Since it is one way model it does not require any phone call back. Kudos!! If properly done you could even have the ability to tag a specific receiver as a RV receiver that would be outside the community of receivers requires this authentication.

Well thought out Dave!! :righton:

Damn.... Just read Ken's post.. This might not work in some installation if there is not a common point between receivers. That is why use cases are so important!!


----------



## jsanders

oldave said:


> And what makes you think Granny's got any kind of network connectivity?
> 
> You have to get Internet and a router/switch/hub to get Dish? Or D*? Hell, if that's the case, let's just concede defeat and give all the subscriptions over to the cable companies now.
> 
> You and I have Internet access... but not everybody does.


Hi oldave, I like what you have to say! It requires some infrastructure changes. First, the satellite uplink needs to be aware of the receiver ID of the master, and be able to tell it what receivers to authenticate. There also needs to be some software to communicate between slave and master receiver, and a routine to shut down the slave if it becomes "un-tethered" for too long. The biggest obstacle is to create some sort of information bus that will work on the existing lines. The data rate is low, so it shouldn't be too hard.

As far as network connectivity goes, I don't think everyone has the internet. At the same time, not everyone has a telephone line coming into their house today either. It would be nice to have both. Computers have a modem port, and an eithernet or WiFi port now, they are mass produced and very cheap now. There is no reason that your master receiver/hub can't call with the phone line, or use the internet. You can save money, because the slave receivers don't need the modem.

Your idea is very cool, because it does not require any communication with E*. The downside is that you can't oder PPV with it, or do bill pay, or do anything with Dish Home that costs money. Surfing might be a lot of fun with an HD display.

Maybe they could combine both ideas to make a more robust solution.


----------



## geoff

OK, Folks, I have just read through this whole thread, and I have a couple of comments. Fist off, I have no land based phone but use VOIP and it works just great with my dish receivers. Second, If you truly aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

I do have a possible solution that might be able to be implemented at some time in the future: Have the LNB report it's serial # to the receivers, when you do your initial install, you report your LNB serial # and all your receivers get programming instructions to only work with that one LNB. If if fails, you call dish, give them the new LNB serial #. I know some people have 2-3 dishes depending what part of the country they live in and what services they are purchasing, but this can be planned for ahead of time and allow receivers to work with X many LNBs, Maybee the only way to have more than 2 LNBs associated with your account would be required to have a professional install.

Just brainstorming folks...

also, I am Canadian, Live in the US, and I have to say, each country has it's own advantages and disadvantages, freedoms and lack there of. But I get off topic


----------



## Jacob S

The problem with having to have a specific lnbf that is coded for the specific receivers they are connected to is that you have to order the special part (just like you would have to order a special card to get service for that particular receiver) only worse. It could not be easily replaced if something were to go wrong with it and it would be expensive since the company could have a good control over cost making it more expensive (they would make more profit off the lnbf).


----------



## digiblur

Ron Barry said:


> However it still does not solve the phone line issue. Maybe what they need to do is offer a convertor that then will allow the Unit to use an Internet connection. Heck I still think this is needed so they can do cool things like.. Scheduling a remote Timer while on vacation. Side benefit would be that they could use this two way mechanism combined with the Dish Net technology to provide an audit system without user intervention.
> 
> Not sure if it is called Dish Net.. but what ever the box to box communcation bus that was being shown at Tech Summit.
> 
> Personally, I could see this as a double solution.


They do offer a box... it's called a Sipura SPA1001 configured with FreeWorldDialup. It will let you dial all the tollfree numbers you want.


----------



## tripod

Jason Nipp said:


> No it is not BS.
> 
> Dish has started enforcing phone line connections. If you do not have a live phone line to connect to then you are supposed to pay an additional fee. Accounts with multiple receivers, especially DVR's are subject to audit.
> 
> Several people in here have had their accounts suspended until they could read off the location ID's.


 I left Direct because of no phone line.I signed up with Dish because of their RV program,where they are aware of no line.If I see a $ increase Charlies people will be very busy answering my calls to them or back to Dtv because they recognize Rvers now.I am a fulltime Rver and live in my 5th wheel 365 a year.Have East Coast channels (NY)as locals.


----------



## Spruceman

A phone-line connection does not necessarily eliminate stacking. What's to prevent running a phone extension to a neighbor's receiver next door? And I think it still costs far less than a separate E* account to America's Everything for the telco to have an extension to a nearby friend's or relative's house if it's served by the same central office. Even an FX line to the next CO would cost much less per month.

On the otherhand: Who would trust enough a neighbor, a friend, and most certainly a relative with the power to order a hundred "adult" or "event" pay per views on your dime? I sure wouldn't. There's no honor among thieves -- ESPECIALLY if they're your relatives.


----------



## AllieVi

Spruceman said:


> ... On the otherhand: Who would trust enough a neighbor, a friend, and most certainly a relative with the power to order a hundred "adult" or "event" pay per views on your dime? I sure wouldn't....


Or have them be able to listen in on *your* phone calls...


----------



## garypen

What if a sub connects a phone line, but has his caller ID blocked? Can Dish "see" what number the box is dialing in from? If not, will they try and get the $5 2nd line fee on the dual-output receivers, even though a phone line is plugged in?


----------



## scooper

callerid block does you no good when calling an "800" number - they are getting ANI.


----------



## jsanders

garypen said:


> What if a sub connects a phone line, but has his caller ID blocked? Can Dish "see" what number the box is dialing in from? If not, will they try and get the $5 2nd line fee on the dual-output receivers, even though a phone line is plugged in?


When you call a "toll free" number, it means you don't pay for the call. The person who owns the line pays for receiving the call. Because they are paying for the call, they apparently have the right to know the incomming phone number, regardless of whether you have your caller ID blocked or not.


----------



## kb7oeb

Spruceman said:


> A phone-line connection does not necessarily eliminate stacking. What's to prevent running a phone extension to a neighbor's receiver next door? And I think it still costs far less than a separate E* account to America's Everything for the telco to have an extension to a nearby friend's or relative's house if it's served by the same central office. Even an FX line to the next CO would cost much less per month.
> 
> On the otherhand: Who would trust enough a neighbor, a friend, and most certainly a relative with the power to order a hundred "adult" or "event" pay per views on your dime? I sure wouldn't. There's no honor among thieves -- ESPECIALLY if they're your relatives.


Good point, you could defeat it with voip adapters too but most people wouldn't be able to figure out how.


----------



## Mr-Rick

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I am not suggesting anything like that. I am suggesting that the lnb would transmit the receivers in the house by some technology that hasn't been invented yet. Maybe a two way form of transmission like internet that would transmit back to Dish how many receivers are connected in the house. But I have said before , it needs to be invented and they should take advantage with the mpeg4 conversion to make it a reality for the reasons that I have already talked about; customers with no landlines and to stop stacking.


If memory serves me correctly I recall hearing something along the lines that each DishPro LNB has a serial number built-in and that a DishPro compatible receiver could read it. If it can read it, it can send the serial number back via phone line. (If it bleeds, we can kill it... Name the movie). This would show ALSO whether the receiver is at the original installation location.

But here is some NEW info on the Receiver Audit. If you FAIL the receiver audit, DISH will not allow you to have more receivers on the account beyond the primary. FOREVER. Second receiver at the same home can only be attained by paying DISH $198 for another receiver and installation. The catch is the second receiver will be a separate account! I couldn't believe I came across this situation with a customer TODAY after reading this thread. I spoke with Neal? over at the audit team and tried to get the second receiver added for $4.99 per month and the response was NO WAY along withe aforementioned details. Be careful!


----------



## garypen

jsanders said:


> When you call a "toll free" number, it means you don't pay for the call. The person who owns the line pays for receiving the call. Because they are paying for the call, they apparently have the right to know the incomming phone number, regardless of whether you have your caller ID blocked or not.


Thanks for the detailed explanation. (...and refraining from using acronyms that have no meaning for most people.)


----------



## Spruceman

"When you call a "toll free" number, it means you don't pay for the call. The person who owns the line pays for receiving the call. Because they are paying for the call, they apparently have the right to know the incomming phone number, regardless of whether you have your caller ID blocked or not."

*******************************************************

And that's exactly why I'm against anyone (and I mean anyone) from being able to block their number when calling a cellphone. If I have to pay to receive the call on my cellphone, callers shouldn't be able to cravenly hide their number, regardless of whether or not they have to pay to make the call!


----------



## Geronimo

DoyleS said:


> I plan to tell them. I was referring to some of the previous comments where customers had de-activated equipment when the upgraded and then were asked for the location ids of equipment that they were no longer using and it was no longer on their billing statement. It sounded to me like you had to do something other than de-activating to get them to take that off of your account so that they did not ask for ids on it at a later time. Seems strange to me but that is why I was asking.
> 
> Does Dish have an official policy on hauling receivers back and forth from a home location? I know of some people that take along when they go camping.
> 
> ..Doyle


technically what you want to do is a violation of the residential agreementn but it is seldom if ever enforced.

FWIW here is what the agreement states

F. Additional Receivers. To independently tune additional televisions within your home, a separate DISH Network receiver is required for each television. DISH Network will allow you to place up to five additional receivers on your account. Each additional receiver would be authorized to receive the same Services as your initial receiver. DISH Network will charge you a reduced monthly fee (Additional Receiver Authorization Fee) for each additional receiver added to your account. This option is only available if your initial DISH Network receiver and all additional receiver(s) are located at the same residence and are continuously connected to the same telephone line. If you desire to receive Services at two different locations, you must open a separate account for each location. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly use a single account for the purpose of authorizing Services for multiple DISH Network receivers that are not all located in the same residence and connected to the same phone line. If we later determine that you did, we may terminate your Services and, in addition to all other applicable fees, you agree to pay us the difference between the amounts actually received by us and the full retail price for the Services authorized for each DISH Network DBS receiver on the account, whether owned by you or not. The payment of that amount and/or the termination of Services shall not prejudice our ability to exercise any other rights and remedies we may have under this Agreement, at law, in equity, or otherwise.


----------



## UHF

Mr-Rick said:


> But here is some NEW info on the Receiver Audit. If you FAIL the receiver audit, DISH will not allow you to have more receivers on the account beyond the primary. FOREVER. Second receiver at the same home can only be attained by paying DISH $198 for another receiver and installation. The catch is the second receiver will be a separate account!


Guess that means I would switch to cable. This is a bad policy in some ways, yet at the same time I can understand the need for audits. But if they call me up demanding information I'm probably going to tell them to go ahead and cut me off. I forward my home phone to my cell when I'm gone so if they call me there is a more than damn good chance that I will not be at home so would be unable to comply with their audit. I guess I could connect my third reciever to the phone line but I'm not going to string wire to do it and those wireless adapter things don't seem to work for some reason. The other two receivers are connected so maybe they won't bother me anyway.


----------



## desertrider

I am a computer consultant and do some work for an individual who contacted me and asked me to look into his satellite situation (his system was installed by a Dish dealer that I had referred him to). I thank this thread for it has helped me to answer his questions. In any case here is his experience:

1. He received a cryptic message that said this is Dish and to call them at some toll free number. He ignored the message for it did not identify why or what the call was about - his words were that it sounded like a scam call.

2. After some time and while he was on business out of town all of his receivers, except the main one, were turned off - no notice, warning or otherwise.

3. His son decided to call Dish and did so. Dish told him to call the special toll free number and so he did. Now the person at that number told him that they needed numbers off the receivers but the son does not have access to dad’s home office room or to dads RV. The son said he could give those numbers to the receivers in the house except dad’s room and the RV and they said that was not good enough and began interrogating the kid about why he could not get to the other receivers and the son got scared and hung up.

4. Now dad gets call from family that TV not working. Dad calls dish and dish tells him to call a special number (dad is mad at this point). Dad calls number from out of town and they tell him that they need numbers from the receivers. They also ask him if it is true that he has a receiver in an RV and he says yes. They tell him that they no longer allow RV use on the home account and are removing that receiver from the account.

5. Dad tells the guy that when he purchased the system, from a dish dealer, they told him he could have a receiver in his RV and even hooked it up for him. The guy tells him that he is aware of that but now they have a department that is calling people to tell them that they no longer allow RV use on the home account and terminate the RV receiver.

6. Dad tells dish to close the account and go somewhere deep beneath the earths surface. The dish guy tells him not to be so upset and he will turn the receivers back on for 72 hours (except the RV receiver) and deal with the receiver info when he returns to town. Dad tells dish they better turn the receivers on permanently or close the account for he has spent enough time on this already.

7. So this is where I received the phone call and was asked to call the dish dealer or find out what I could about why Dish had done this to him.

After reading this thread I have to admit I am even surprised to find out the following:

A. Dish is calling people directly asking for receiver information - as one person pointed out earlier a company should never solicit information from a customer when the call is initiated by them - this is how identity theft occurs and for Dish, a very large corporation to not be aware of this is inexcusable. Dish should call the customer and tell them to call back at the number on their statement and ask for a certain extension or something like that and remind the customer never to give out information to someone who contacts them.

B. For Dish to turn off a current paying customer’s receiver / TV without warning, notice or otherwise is so beyond the concept of customer service that I think it should be listed under top corporate blunders. This is how companies lose customers and if management is not paying attention it can be a costly policy.

C. I really believe that this Dish customer is going to leave Dish if he finds a comparable product with the local cable service - he already mentioned that he was calling cable to find out what they offer. Just for Dish to have existing customers calling the competition from something they initiated is just hard to believe.


----------



## DoyleS

With all of the interest in the Receiver Audit Team Phone calls, I am curious what percentage of you have actually ever been audited with a call asking for Location ID?


----------



## DoyleS

Jason,

I didn't put an expiration on it figuring that it would just pass into oblivion. Can you make it 2 weeks or something appropriate?

Thanks,
Doyle


----------



## JPointerWI

I havent, but some of my customers have. None of them were doing anything wrong, most of them passed. At least 1 failed, because they had a receiver in a guest room that wasnt plugged in, it took the custoemr too long to get it working, so the audit team ECM'd it.


----------



## TonyM

nope

did get a call when we didnt change one of the cards quick enough...was on vacation and didnt get to it until they cut it off


----------



## esteg

I have 4 receivers, hook to phone lines, I received a call from Frank from Dish Network, answered by answering machine, to call a toll free Dish number. Had to read numbers from all units and was told if I had them hooked up to phone lines they would not have to call me. Pointed out they were ALL hooked up he says OH! yes I see that now I guess we didn't have to call you.


----------



## Bill R

DISH is trying to prevent account stacking but the "audit team" is going about it the wrong way. First, they need to CLEARLY state why they are calling (especially if they have to leave a message on an answering machine). Second, they need to be WAY LESS belligerent. I know a 65 year old lady that they called and they treated her like a crook (she really did not know how to get to the screen that the "auditor" told her she needed to go to). Not only did they cut off her service on her second receiver, when a (male) relative called to get her service restored they gave him a hard time too. TOTALLY unprofessional on DISH's part to treat an honest, paying customer that way. The lady did get her service restored but she is very likely going to drop DISH as soon as her commitment is up and she is telling everyone about how badly she was treated by DISH Network.

My guess is that the "audit team" is a bunch of unmonitored "cowboys" who think that they can get away with anything. This is wrong and people that have been treated badly by the "audit team" need to complain to [email protected]. The executive team WANTS to hear your complaints if you feel you have not been treated properly when they called you so please email them if you have a complaint.


----------



## jsanders

Bill R said:


> First, they need to CLEARLY state why they are calling (especially if they have to leave a message on an answering machine).


I think we all agree with your sentiment, Dish needs to be very careful with a high level of professionalism in how they handle the audit.

However, telling the account stacker why they are calling when they leave a message won't help E* any. It gives time for the account stacker to pose as an innocent customer.


----------



## Bill R

jsanders said:


> I think we all agree with your sentiment, Dish needs to be very careful with a high level of professionalism in how they handle the audit.
> 
> However, telling the account stacker why they are calling when they leave a message won't help E* any. It gives time for the account stacker to pose as an innocent customer.


I am willing to bet that over 99 percent of the people that they are calling ARE innocent (they just didn't have all their receivers plugged into the phone line).

If the "audit team" keeps up their current tactics DISH is going to lose a LOT of good customers. Smart customers will NOT tolerate being treated so poorly.


----------



## zmark

> If the "audit team" keeps up their current tactics DISH is going to lose a LOT of good customers. Smart customers will NOT tolerate being treated so poorly.


So what. DISH has a long standing policy of caring only about new subscribers, not current ones.


----------



## AllieVi

Bill R said:


> ...My guess is that the "audit team" is a bunch of unmonitored "cowboys" who think that they can get away with anything. This is wrong and people that have been treated badly by the "audit team" need to complain to [email protected]. The executive team WANTS to hear your complaints if you feel you have not been treated properly when they called you so please email them if you have a complaint.


I think you hit the nail on the head. I have no problem with DISH checking on receivers via phone calls, but from some of the posts here, department tactics need improvement.


----------



## Spruceman

Does all this mean that people with second homes wont be able to take a receiver to the cottage for a couple of weeks at a time? After all, nobody, or at least nobody outside the imediate household, would be using the receivers in the first home when a receiver is taken to the cottage. Even Charlie, on one of the Chats, said he does this. Of course, he's the BOSS; but he made it sound like it was OK for we peasants to do so as well.

It's a shame, the RV bit couldnt be extended for second homes -- as the price of a second America's Everything account for a year would exceed the combined annual cost of everything else associated with owning the cottage/cabin/camp once the mortgage is paid off. I would think that anyone required to get a second account for that receiver, would merely go with Directv or even become a "northern stater" -- thus depriving Dish of the $5 for that receiver -- and maybe even the whole fracking account, it the customer were introduced to whatever advantages DirecTV, ExpressVu, or StarChoice might have over Dish. In fact, StarChoice's web site encourages customers to take a receiver with them when they go to the cottage and offers specials on second home installs from time to time to accommodate that travelling receiver.

Although there may be real privacy concerns here: BUT, since the gov't has already taken all our privacy away anyway, maybe the electronic-industry folks should get together with the folks crafting the next Patriot Act (or whichever one) which will require RFIDs for everyone. When signing up for service with Dish, they could query the DHS database to match the RFID numbers of household members with [next generation] receivers and receiver cards. The receiver could query the RFIDs within 25 or 50 feet and automatically turn off (except for PVR scheduled recording) if the authorized household members are not there. This could also be done for other equipment, appliances, power tools, as well in order to make them worthless if reported stolen.


----------



## jsanders

Bill R said:


> I am willing to bet that over 99 percent of the people that they are calling ARE innocent (they just didn't have all their receivers plugged into the phone line).
> 
> If the "audit team" keeps up their current tactics DISH is going to lose a LOT of good customers. Smart customers will NOT tolerate being treated so poorly.


What kind of an argument is that??  I have no idea what percentage of people they call are innocent, and it is irresponsible for you to suggest what percentage are innocent. Regardless of what percentage are innocent, that doesn't mean that dish should state the purpose of the call when they leave a message. It blows their cover for those that *are* commiting theft. They won't be calling a random sampling of their customer base. They are going to be calling those that have a larger number of receivers, with some of them being disconnected from the phone line. It is a profiled segment of their customer base.

Now, you are profiling the customer base as to who is a "good", and "smart" customer. You are suggesting that, dumb, bad customers will tolerate being poorly, but the smart ones wont. Again, this is false reasoning. Let me give you my definition of a good customer, let's see what you think of it. A good customer is one that pays their bills on time, and doesn't stack their account. It has nothing to do with their intelligence quotient. It is the highly emotional customer that Dish will loose, and it is the bad customer (the channel stacker) that they will more than likely loose.

Overall Bill, I DON'T disagree with your sentiment, I think the audit team sounds a bit iron fissted in their tactics. I do take exception to your argument though, it is flawed.

I think the audit team shouldn't leave a message at all. They should just keep calling back until someone answers the phone. That way they have the element of surprise. Having the element of surprise does not mean they can't speak with their customers with a high degree of professionalism though.


----------



## harryball

Both dish companies are going to have some challenges with thier model as more and more homes move to cell phone only solutions. They are going to find people are not willing to pay for a phone line for the sake of dish service when they can go cable and get programming, internet and even a cheaper IP phone solution if they want it.

In Atlanta a residential line can push $50/month, ours was $47.63 per month when we dropped it. But we did get caller ID and touch tone, that made it worth it... right?

Denver is about $23/month and I was shocked to hear from a friend in San Jose that lines can be less than $18/month.

Don't have an answer, but I'm glad to provide more questions.

Robert
Never look up while releasing doves.


----------



## hokieengineer

Funny thing about all this is that the Location ID algorithm has been compromised. Thus anyone that actually is account stacking, would probably be wise enough to have the info ready if/when dish calls. 

I guess the current program is working if they are still doing it, but it does seem to be annoying legit customers. 

FWIW, the Location ID is based on your smartcard ID, receiver ID, time of day, and some other things. The time of day is important, since it changes depending on when the audit guys call.

On edit, I read through the 8 pages and realized there are many ways for a potential account stacker to delay giving the required info. Even a simple "my power is out can I call you back later". I can only see these audit people catching the dumbest of the dumb....


----------



## Nick

I've never had a phone line connected to any E* receiver. I am cell-only and haven't had a land line since 2000. What am I to do if/when I get audited/ECM'd -- switch to D* or cable? 

The % of cell-only subs is increasing.

There must be a better way.

I know! Dish could apply some _common sense_ to it's audit procedures. How hard could that be?


----------



## AllieVi

hokieengineer said:


> Funny thing about all this is that the Location ID algorithm has been compromised. Thus anyone that actually is account stacking, would probably be wise enough to have the info ready if/when dish calls. ...


I don't agree with your conclusion.

I doubt that stackers are as sophisticated as you describe. I also doubt that many people would be prepared to calculate/generate the ID when the call comes from DISH.


----------



## dfergie

Nick said:


> I've never had a phone line connected to any E* receiver. I am cell-only and haven't had a land line since 2000. What am I to do if/when I get audited/ECM'd -- switch to D* or cable?
> 
> The % of cell-only subs is increasing.
> 
> There must be a better way.
> 
> I know! Dish could apply some _common sense_ to it's audit procedures. How hard could that be?


 Me too...(no land lines anymore) and I guess when my guides turn red I will call them... They do have my e-mail ...


----------



## Dang The Hung

I just got audited today and supposedly failed since the jerk on the other end of the line wouldn't turn on my recievers. I am in the same situation, I don't have a land line to connect the receivers up to, cellphone only. I gave the guy all the info he asked for and said that since I don't have the recievers connected to a phone line, he disagreed with me and said the recievers were not in the same location. I told him to bring his sorry ass out to me house and I would show him all me recievers are at my house and he said he didn't need to that based on the information he has they are not at my house.

This so has me peeooed. I have been a customer with dish since 1998 and I pay them $120 a month and this is how I get treated. I emailed [email protected] and told them of the situation and if I don't have my recievers on by then end of the day I am canceling. This is such BS to be treated like a 3rd class citizen by a company that one has been loyal with for years and always paid the bill.


----------



## Dang The Hung

I tried calling customer service and speaking with a supervisor. All he could do was transfer me back to the Audit department. I have never had a problem with customer serivce reps, but these audit guys are really rude and condensending. After explaining my situation for the 3rd time in a row, they still refuse to reactivate my recievers and said they could only be activated on another account. I spoke with "Mickey" op#50Z who was the supposed supervisor. Seeing he was just another robot, it was pointless to carry on a conversation with this guy. I called him back after he hung up on me and asked for his name and the name of the original operator, which he told his name was "Ed" and then when I asked for "Ed's" operator number he hung up on me again.

These guys are the pillar of customer service aren't they? First accussing a longtime customer of essentially stealing, then not listening to the situation, then fianlly hanging up on them. I really hope someone higher up from Dish is reading these forums because your Audit team sucks! And unless my recievers are reactivated, dish will be loosing a customer.


----------



## DoyleS

I am curious whether he said all of your receivers failed or just one of them. I am assuming he had you walking around the house and bringing up Location ID numbers for each of the receivers. Can you give us a little more detail on the call as to how it started and what were the questions. Obviously with a cellphone, you could receive a call and not even be at home. If it is not too much trouble, walk us through the call. 

I am also curious as to what time of day the audit calls come. Do they come in the evening or on weekends? Most people work during the day so it is hard to believe they would be able to respond during the day. 


..Doyle


----------



## DoyleS

If my wife received the call she would have to inform them that she doesn't know how to operate a couple of the systems. My 6000 is in the home theater connected to a large CRT projector and she doesn't operate that system and doesn't want to learn. By the same token, the 6000 and 508 that are in the equipment rack are both connected to a phone line. It is the third receiver that is not. Whether she could navigate that one I am not sure. I tend to doubt it. 

..Doyle


----------



## Mike D-CO5

My call came in the early morning hours last summer, when I was on the road going to town to eat lunch and see a movie with my family. I was cell phone only last summer and when I told the auditor I couldn't tell her the numbers since I was in the car, etc, she said to call back when I got home. When I got home around 3:30 pm, all of my receivers were deactivated except one. I had to jump through hoops with their audit team to get them all reactivated. I have since gone back to land line and dsl instead of cable modem and have deactivated my 3 rd receiver which was a leased 522. 

My advice is to either go with a land line and plug the receivers in or to go with one receiver period. I don't agree with the audit team tactics and I agree they need to be curbed but the only way to do so is to formally complain to Dish network ceo and ask them to change their ways, or go with the competition either Directv or cable.


----------



## Danny R

Nice poll, but it would be a bit more useful to know, of those who have been audited, how many receivers you have in your possession.


----------



## DoyleS

I tend to agree, but initially was a bit unsure how many people would be able to respond. So far only 11 have indicated they were audited. Clearly if someone had 3 receivers with none connected I would profile that as a higher probability for stacking than someone that had 2 receivers connected and 1 not connected. At the same time there was one respondent who had all receivers connected and still got an audit call although that sounds like a fluke. If some of those who were audited wanted to drop some additional details on the thread about their audits, it would be appreciated by all. 

..Doyle


----------



## garypen

Mike D-CO5 said:


> My advice is to either go with a land line and plug the receivers in or to go with one receiver period. I don't care with the audit team tactics and I agree they need to be curbed but the only way to do so is to formally complain to Dish network ceo and ask them to change their ways, or go with the competition either Directv or cable.


That is very sound advice.


----------



## purwater

I haven't been audited and responded so in the poll, but about 2 years ago I got a letter from Dish saying I had to connect all my receivers to the phone line or risk losing service. I disregarded the letter and nothing happened. I had 6 receivers at the time and now I have 5. Only 2 of them are connected to the phone. Only 4 of them are in the house and the 5th is in my garage/workshop about 100 ft from the home. When I upgraded to a superdish I asked the CSR about this and she said that was cool having the receiver in my garage. It's not a business just where I store stuff and work on my various repairs around the home. When my installer installed the superdish he said there wasn't a way to be forced to use a home phone line, but I guess the audits are the way around that now. I've been with dish for over 7 years, but if I catch any grief from the audit police I'm gonna just switch service. I'm sure eventually they will prevent my receiver in my garage, but until then I'll hope to avoid the audits. I've never subscribed to Directv yet so at least I'd qualify for some new equipment cheap.


----------



## BobMurdoch

I was called, and wouldn't you know it... I was on a business trip with my wife. They wound up zapping all but my primary receiver until I called them back. (This really annoyed my kids who were being watched by my inlaws at the time). Lucky none of the PVRs other than my primary had any critical timers active.

Got back and got it straightened out. I have 2 out of 5 receivers plugged in, the other three are nowhere near any phone jacks. They had me read all of the data back, and then all was fine again.


----------



## Fat_YouKnowWho

JohnH said:


> You don't seem to understand the significance of being put on hold during an audit. Could be a way to get to the neighbors for the additional checks without being heard. It is a justified restriction which is part of the procedure.
> 
> As to customer service, it is an audit. Have not known many auditors to be particularly customer friendly.


Well, many phones these days have MUTE, to mute the sounds on your end, so you could mute without them being on "hold". I don't think they can insist you don't put them on hold. What are you supposed to do if you are on a corded phone, just set it on the counter, and walk through your house to get the info, and come back? What's the difference between doing that and putting them on hold? NOTHING, other than they MIGHT be able to hear something in the background if you just set the handset down (not gonna hear much, even if they amplify, since the mic in a phone is only so sensitive... lol

I think their policy is ridiculous as well. They are auditing good, honest customers, because of an assumption that there might be a few bad apples in the bunch. I would be willing to bet that if they continue to audit people, and shut people down for not responding immediately (due to being out of the house on their cell phones, or because they left a message and haven't been called back yet), that they'll end up with a class action suit against them. I suggest that everyone that has been audited file a complaint, and make it known that you don't appreciate the intrusion. With enough complaints, they may cease to disturb you, or they may realize there is a threat of legal action against them. Nobody signed a contract saying that you would allow them to call you anytime they like and audit you in this way, so don't let them walk all over you. I understand their urge to do it, but it's a bad way to handle things, and any GOOD business wouldn't operate that way.


----------



## Fat_YouKnowWho

Mr-Rick said:


> (If it bleeds, we can kill it... Name the movie).


Predator


----------



## Fat_YouKnowWho

DoyleS said:


> If my wife received the call she would have to inform them that she doesn't know how to operate a couple of the systems. My 6000 is in the home theater connected to a large CRT projector and she doesn't operate that system and doesn't want to learn. By the same token, the 6000 and 508 that are in the equipment rack are both connected to a phone line. It is the third receiver that is not. Whether she could navigate that one I am not sure. I tend to doubt it.
> 
> ..Doyle


They can walk you through the process of getting the location id. On your big home theatre system, they can't walk her through turning it all on, but once it is on, they can certainly tell her how to navigate to the proper screen using the dish remote. It's relatively basic, and the same on almost every model.


----------



## jsanders

Fat_YouKnowWho said:


> Nobody signed a contract saying that you would allow them to call you anytime they like and audit you in this way, so don't let them walk all over you.


That is a very bold statement that has no credibility unless you support it.



Fat_YouKnowWho said:


> With enough complaints, they may cease to disturb you, or they may realize there is a threat of legal action against them.


Would you please explain what kind of legal action you are referring to?


----------



## Dang The Hung

DoyleS said:


> I am curious whether he said all of your receivers failed or just one of them. I am assuming he had you walking around the house and bringing up Location ID numbers for each of the receivers. Can you give us a little more detail on the call as to how it started and what were the questions. Obviously with a cellphone, you could receive a call and not even be at home. If it is not too much trouble, walk us through the call.
> 
> I am also curious as to what time of day the audit calls come. Do they come in the evening or on weekends? Most people work during the day so it is hard to believe they would be able to respond during the day.
> 
> ..Doyle


I never received a call from them, even though they have my number on file. I came home last night and found all my receivers not working. I called tech support who then gave me the Team number. I called them but couldn't get anyone on the line.

I waited until this morning to call and the first person I spoke to was Ed. He wasn't rude or belligerent at first, but he did talk to fast for me to understand what I was calling for. He then said that needed to verify the receivers on my account and wanted me to walk around the house and read him numbers that he asked for. He asked if I still had 5 receivers and wanted to know where they were all at. I told him one in the living room, one in the computer room, two in the bedrooms and one in the workshop in my backyard. I started in the living room and gave him the info he requested which was the smartcard# receiver# software# and location#. He then asked if my receivers are connected to a phone line to which I replied no. Sometimes I hook up my living room receiver to order pay-per-view, but other than that all my receivers stay disconnected from the phone. He then asked why. To which I replied my house is very old and only has a phone line in the den (computer room) and no way to keep the receivers connected 24/7. He then asked me if I have heard of wireless phone connectors, to which I replied if you want to give me some then go ahead, but otherwise I ain't shelling out $60 for each receiver for a phone jack. Besides I have to keep my phone line free to use the internet on my computer since I run a business from the web.

When we got to the second and subsequent receivers, he commented that the software numbers I gave him were out of date and due to the fact that I have been not hooking up the telephone line to the receivers so they could update themselves. When we got to the last receiver, which is out in my shop, he had be turn the receiver off and back on then had me re-read the location#. After that he said that because I could not give him the correct information and that the receivers were not updating themselves with the correct information that he was disabling every receiver on my account with the exception of my primary receiver(which is the one I rarely connected to the phone line) and that I would receive I credit on my next bill for the additional receiver fees for this month. He then said, and this is when I flew off the hook, that I could contact the people who are using my receivers and tell them that they can set those receivers on their own accounts and that they cannot be added back to my account. I said what people? and he said the people that you are letting use your receiver that are not there at your house. But the receivers are at my house I just read all the info he asked for from each receiver. Well, its not the correct information and you could not provide me with the correct information.

So immediately I was called a liar and a thief. I told him to bring his sorry *** to my house I would show him my receivers. He then told me to have a good day and hung up.

So now only one receiver on my account works. I have tried calling customer service to speak with someone higher up, but they can only transfer my back to the ******* Team. I got intouch in Mickey who claims to be the supervisor of the *******. He was even more rude and belligerent that Ed and at first refused to give me his name. I again offered for him to bring is sorry *** to my house to see my receivers, but he said he didn't need too because the information I provided to him or lack thereof in his opinion, is enough for him to believe the receivers are not there, then he said that by the time he got there I could have enough time to go get the receivers and hook them up at my house before he got there to visually audit them. I said, oh darn why didn't I think of that! The coversation went downhill from there and it ended with him saying I better not call back to the ******** Audit Team.

This experience is a mitigated outrage and damn if this doesn't cost dish alot of customers. They better be careful or they are gonna find themselves in the middle of a class action lawsuit.


----------



## jsanders

Dang The Hung said:


> Besides I have to keep my phone line free to use the internet on my computer since I run a business from the web.


How late do you do business on the web anyway? You must be a night owl then! I'm pretty sure that the receivers can detect a dialtone, and wait for one before they attempt a call.



Dang The Hung said:


> When we got to the second and subsequent receivers, he commented that the software numbers I gave him were out of date and due to the fact that I have been not hooking up the telephone line to the receivers so they could update themselves.


 That isn't true.



Dang The Hung said:


> After that he said that because I could not give him the correct information and that the receivers were not updating themselves with the correct information that he was disabling every receiver on my account with the exception of my primary receiver





Dang The Hung said:


> So immediately I was called a liar and a thief. I told him to bring his sorry ass to my house I would show him my receivers. He then told me to have a good day and hung up.


You were not immediately called a liar and a thief. You were found to not be trustworthy in the eyes of the audit team because you couldn't give them up to date information.

I'm sorry you aren't happy with what happened, I don't know anybody that would be thrilled about an experience like that. Something doesn't add up with your story though. If you were Dish, and a customer couldn't verify that the receivers were in his house, what would you do if you were on the audit team?


----------



## zmark

jsanders said:


> You were not immediately called a liar and a thief. You were found to not be trustworthy in the eyes of the audit team because you couldn't give them up to date information.


Yes he was. Try rereading what he wrote.



jsanders said:


> I'm sorry you aren't happy with what happened, I don't know anybody that would be thrilled about an experience like that. Something doesn't add up with your story though. If you were Dish, and a customer couldn't verify that the receivers were in his house, what would you do if you were on the audit team?


Given my disastrous experience with the yellow smartcards, It's certainly possible for DISH to have screwed up here. The audit team should know this and not instantly and *irrevocably* turn off those receivers. They should work with the customer to solve the problem, doing things such as forcing the receiver to perform a software update, if that was the problem.

Consider the following scenarios. Both of these situation have happened to me (minus the audit team call of course):

1) Have a receiver in an inaccessible location. Consider having a receiver on the second floor, being the only person around, and physically unable to get up the stairs. Try that excuse with the audit team.

2) Have a receiver connected to a TV that just broke. What do I do in this case, reconnect the receiver to another TV while on the phone with the audit team? Given the time involved in doing that, they will just assume I called someone else to relay numbers from. And that's assuming I even know how to hook up the receiver.

Keep in mind that the customer does not know in advance that they are calling the audit team. And since they give you one and only one shot at this, there is no opportunity to prepare.

The audit team's policies indicate a strong desire to punish offenders instead of simply stopping account stacking. One common theme in this thread is the audit team's complete lack of desire to work with anybody; if you fail their little checklist then you're cutoff forever. If this was so important to DISH, they should have required the phone line hookup from the very beginning. They chose instead to not enforce this, knowing full well this would lead to account stacking. And now they choose to punish customers for their shortsighted mistake.


----------



## Spruceman

Maybe everyone reading this thread should e-mail a copy of it to the marketing department of the cable company serving their community. If I were in cable marketing, this would make great ad copy. Beats the round of back and forth ads of Comcast vs Verizon in marketing high speed internet a year or so back -- or those long running ads of how cable is better than satellite.

Cable AD: scene of hundred red and black Dilbert cubicles adorned with lightningbolts each with a swastica-bearing jack-booted stormtrooper dressed in black hunched over a big red "fry that receiver into perpetuity" button [lightning flashes and robust Wagner music in background]. Stormtrooper and growling into the phone "If you don't give me those receiver IDs in the next 10 seconds, I'm going to zap them all to hell and come take your first-born child!!". Announcer: This could happen to you if you don't pay an extra $50 a month for land-line phone service and run phone wires all over your house to each TV. See for yourself [URL for this thread crawl at bottom of screen]. If you don't want your TV equipment zapped, call ****** Cable today.


----------



## Spruceman

*"Would you please explain what kind of legal action you are referring to? "*

Seems to me that if you just went out and bought two $600 921s and they permanently disabled them, so you couldn't even sell them on Ebay, there's something you should be able to do about it! It would be like taking a sledgehammer to my neighbor's car if I SUSPECTED he parked it an inch over my property line last night but since moved it.

*"On your big home theatre system, they can't walk her through turning it all on, but once it is on, they can certainly tell her how to "*

And what if that wife is confronted by a wall of components, switching equipment, etc., and doesn't know what unmarked buttons to push to get the Dish receiver's video to go on screen as opposed to one of several DVD players, VCRs, the DirectTV receiver, the line from the computer, CCTV cameras, etc, etc. Some A/V setups can look as bewildering as the instrumentation on a 747!


----------



## Dang The Hung

> How late do you do business on the web anyway? You must be a night owl then! I'm pretty sure that the receivers can detect a dialtone, and wait for one before they attempt a call.


That is really none of your **** business. And my receivers have been known to attempt dialing out during the middle of the day. And yes I am a night owl and yes after I finish my day job around 10p.m. or so I come home and conduct my web business till about 2a.m. or so. And before you ask, the nature of my web business is...none of your **** business.



> That isn't true.


Oh really!?, then try telling that to those ****** over at the ******* audit team that. They will vigourously disagree with you.

Tell us Jsanders are or are you not an echostar employee? If you aren't, then how do you know what the SOP's are when it comes to auditing people?



> You were not immediately called a liar and a thief. You were found to not be trustworthy in the eyes of the audit team because you couldn't give them up to date information.


Information that the receiver(s) infront of me were providing. I don't program the **** things so I cannot help with little numbers or doodads they display on the screen.

This is not a trial or an inquiry. So stop with your hostile prosecution attitude. If you were truely sorry about my situation, then you would shut your mouth and quite flaming those who were audited and failed and actually start helping them by calling, writing, or emailing dish. But something tells me that your not going to do that are you?


----------



## Spruceman

Glad to see this thread is beginning to approach the number of posts as in some those the gay-bashing and Bible-thumping threads over in the Potpourri Forum. Guess there are some satellite-related things worthy of long threads afterall.

Good thing there is DirecTV and (for town & city dwellers) cable TV. Just shows the need for even more competition in the marketplace. FTTP will be coming along for citydwellers (e.g., Verizon seeking CATV franchises). For rural folks however, it shows the need for an all-inclusive NAFTA to allow Sky Mexico, ExpressVu and Star Choice to come into the USA.


----------



## Grandude

Spruceman said:


> And what if that wife is confronted by a wall of components, switching equipment, etc., and doesn't know what unmarked buttons to push to get the Dish receiver's video to go on screen as opposed to one of several DVD players, VCRs, the DirectTV receiver, the line from the computer, CCTV cameras, etc, etc. Some A/V setups can look as bewildering as the instrumentation on a 747!


AMEN to that. There is absolutely no way that my wife could navigate through all the menus to get the info from my main AV system.

Add to that, she had a stroke some years back which left her with the use of only one hand and trouble walking. I can't picture her successfully getting from the family room to the garage to the front bedroom and then the back bedroom while holding a connection on the phone, picking up a different remote for a different type Dish receiver and different TV.

Luckily, I was home when the auditor called. Her first statement sounded quite ominous so I went through the whole process and continued to talk to her while I was moving from room to room to garage, telling her where I was going and each step in the process of turning each receiver/TV on.

I have since run a phone line to the one receiver which didn't have one but it is over the floor so added a throw carpet over the line.

If I had been unsuccessful in completely satisfying the auditor and they cut off any of my receivers, I would then more seriously consider switching completely to Comcast. I have the minimum service with HD box to get the locals in HD which Dish can't supply at present.

Couple that with a 921 which is a $1000 flakey mistake on my part, an 811 which is not 100%, and a 6000 which is quite noisy. Sheesh, why am I so patient with Dish Network and Echostar?


----------



## Jason Nipp

Guys, I know that this is a hot and controversial topic, but please tone it down a notch. 

Oh and since this poll thread had pretty much turned into a continuation of the discussion thread I am merging them together.

Thanks,


----------



## jsanders

Spruceman said:


> *"Would you please explain what kind of legal action you are referring to? "*
> 
> Seems to me that you just went out and bought two $600 921s and they permanently disabled them, so you couldn't even sell them on Ebay, there's something you should be able to do about it!


Ah! That is an interesting point Spruceman!

Hopefully, the 921 software is so buggy, the self destruct code would malfunction! 

I don't know the legality of this issue, it is quite interesting to ponder though. On one hand, in the case of the 921, E* would be destroying your personal property. On the other hand, the satellite receiver's intended purpose is linked to a service provided by E*. It could be argued though, that the 921 could be used stand-alone to receive terrestrial signals, although it is still required to have a link to the satellite.

Does anyone have any insight on this issue?

I guess we have learned something from this Spruceman. Regardless of E*'s policy, you can protect yourself. Lease the receiver! !rolling They only destroy their own property at that point! And for all of those that I argued that purchasing can be better than leasing, here is another point for your counter argument!


----------



## jsanders

Dang The Hung, I'm sorry you took my comments as inflamatory, that wasn't my intention.

I don't work for Echostar, I am an engineer at a GPS company.

I do have one question for you though. Of these receivers that you have which were disabled, what kind of useage did they get? That question isn't intended to be too personal or invasive. It would help us to know how much you used them with regards to how your audit call went.

As regards your signature, the downside of arranging those meetings is that you should be mindful of those past arrangements when your own meeting is scheduled.


----------



## jsanders

zmark said:


> Yes he was. Try rereading what he wrote.


I re-read it. Immediately means without delay, instantly. They did not call him and turn his receivers off, they did the audit first (hence, the delay).


----------



## Mr-Rick

Fat_YouKnowWho said:


> Predator


Got it!


----------



## digiblur

jsanders said:


> How late do you do business on the web anyway? You must be a night owl then! I'm pretty sure that the receivers can detect a dialtone, and wait for one before they attempt a call.


No, the receiver is stupid. It just picks up. I've had it dial several times while I was on the phone.


----------



## digiblur

A disabled veteran friend of mine is fixing to get 3 or 4 receivers in his house. Two will be downstairs and 1-2 upstairs. The two college kids living with him lock their doors with a key when they leave due to some previous problems with the visitor's kids. He can't get upstairs and has no intention of going up their. I can see it now....

"Sir, we unhooked your blank blank receivers due to your blank blank self is blankedy blankedy stealing service."

"Are you serious young man?" "You ought to be ashamed of yourself!" "You know what...since you failing to provide me with service anymore that is a breach of contract!" "Do you know DirecTV's number?" "I'll make sure and tell the nice DirecTV guy to leave your stuff on the front porch for you." "This isn't Motel 6, so don't expect me to leave the light on!"

I've seen him do the same type thing with a cell phone company.... he got out of contract because of their problem and never owed them a dime more.


----------



## jsanders

digiblur said:


> No, the receiver is stupid. It just picks up. I've had it dial several times while I was on the phone.


Ouch! That is rather pathetic! What receiver do you have that did this, and how long ago did it happen??


----------



## Dang The Hung

jsanders said:


> Dang The Hung, I'm sorry you took my comments as inflamatory, that wasn't my intention.
> 
> I don't work for Echostar, I am an engineer at a GPS company.
> 
> I do have one question for you though. Of these receivers that you have which were disabled, what kind of useage did they get? That question isn't intended to be too personal or invasive. It would help us to know how much you used them with regards to how your audit call went.
> 
> As regards your signature, the downside of arranging those meetings is that you should be mindful of those past arrangements when your own meeting is scheduled.


Jsanders, I appreciate the apology, and in that same token I offer you my apologies.

I assume when you refer to "usage" you are inquiring how much they stay on or off. I keep all my receivers on pretty much 24/7, except when I go out of town or on vacation. Nothing rattles my nerves more than turning on a television to the sound and sight of static.

As further regards to my signature, I am pretty much convinced that earth is hell and we are all being put to the test. So when my meeting comes, I will welcome it with open arms.


----------



## jsanders

Dang The Hung said:


> I assume when you refer to "usage" you are inquiring how much they stay on or off. I keep all my receivers on pretty much 24/7, except when I go out of town or on vacation. Nothing rattles my nerves more than turning on a television to the sound and sight of static.
> 
> As further regards to my signature, I am pretty much convinced that earth is hell and we are all being put to the test. So when my meeting comes, I will welcome it with open arms.


Okay, now we are getting somewhere! Are these receivers dual tuners, or just the standard receiver??

From the sounds of it, E* has been a sort of symbolic hell for you at this point! :lol:


----------



## Dang The Hung

Jsanders,

I have a High Definition receiver and the other 4 receivers are, I assume, standard receivers. I have 5 televisions and had to have a receiver for each, if that answers your question.

I went around and got model numbers. The High Definition Receiver is a 811. The computer room and two bedroom receivers are 301 and the workshop receiver is a 1000.


----------



## jsanders

Okay Dang The Hung, now your story makes some sense, it adds up!

If you leave these receivers on 24hrs a day, 7 days a week, they won't load in the latest software. Since these receivers have only one tuner, they need to be powered down to get software updates. The software is downloaded via the satellite link, not the phone line, but it can't do that if it is tuned to a channel.

When I was asking about usage, I was actually wondering if they were ever left unplugged, that could do it too.

Anyway, that is why it showed that you had outdated software when they called for the audit. There is another question about this which I don't know the answer. Does anyone know if the location ID software/algorythms could have changed at all with the newer software versions?? 

Did the audit team guys tell you if your location IDs were wrong, or did they just tell you that you had an old software version?

This is very interesting to me, being a consumer electronics developer. It shows that you will never know how the customer will use the product. The E* people appear to be banking that the user will turn off the receiver at night. Well, at least the audit team does anyway.


----------



## n0qcu

jsanders said:


> Does anyone know if the location ID software/algorythms could have changed at all with the newer software versions??


Yes, They have been changed.


----------



## jsanders

n0qcu said:


> Yes, They have been changed.


Thanks n0qcu, that is the last puzzle piece!

Does what happened make sense Dang The Hung (I'm not saying that it is right, just that it makes sense)?

The question now is, what can you do about it?

The only way I think you can make your case is to make sure that you don't let the receivers download new software! Keep them on as you have been doing, or unplug them, and then disconnect the antenna. Then, you have to get someone's attention at the audit department to see that the location ID can be different because you didn't do any software updates.

The audit department needs to be able to match a location ID algorythm to the software version in the receiver, not just assume you have the latest code.


----------



## AllieVi

The out-of-date software issue could apply to many people. While I know that my 4000 receiver must be "off" to allow downloading, I almost never actually turn it off. If the receiver missed a download as a result, I could easily be suspected of deception based on what appears to be auditor assumptions.

I suspect that many (most?) people with older receivers don't turn them off. My 508's go to sleep at night, so they stay current.


----------



## UHF

I never turn off my 4900, unless I happen to see a report on DBSTalk that says new software is available. I almost never shut off my 2700 either, nor do I connect it to the phone.

I think everyone that gets audited should complain to the BBB about it. I know the BBB is somewhat useless but maybe if they get enough complaints it will make Dish realize that they are pissing off their customers and rethink the whole audit thing, or at least try to make it a little less unpleasant.


----------



## Bill R

UHF said:


> maybe if they get enough complaints it will make Dish realize that they are pissing off their customers and rethink the whole audit thing, or at least try to make it a little less unpleasant.


According to someone that I talked to at DISH this morning DISH is getting "some" complaints about the "audit team" and is "looking into" some changes. I suggested a few things: 

First, audit the accounts with a "high number" of receivers and the AT everything package. I know two people with AT60 and two receivers that got audited. I would think that account stackers would have a higher level package and more receivers.

Second, I suggested that the "audit team" receive a LOT more training on how to conduct the audit. They seem to automatically assume that the customer is in the wrong which, from reading this thread, isn't always the case and they are treating a lot of customers unprofessionally.

Third, they need to make sure that they are taking into account the software version that the customer has. According to the people that I talked to that got audited that question wasn't even asked and that could cause a problem if the software is not the most current version.

Fourth, I suggested that the information about the audit be discussed on tonight's tech forum (8/8/05, 9 PM EDT, channel 101). The person that I talked to didn't think that was going to happen but did say if someone called or emailed a question the audit _might_ be discussed.

He said that the simple solution is for customers to plug in their phone line. I brought up the point that MANY of DISH's customers no longer have "regular" home phone lines (and even fewer will have them in the future as home IP phone service is deployed by the cable companies). He admitted that is becoming somewhat of a problem and that "DISH needs to take that into account".


----------



## ehren

Well my folks now own 2 homes and the Dish installer they had said they can have 1 reciever at each home and they just pay the 5.00 2nd reciever fee. They don't have phone lines plugged in either so what is all this B.S. about a "audit team" anyways?


----------



## BobMurdoch

If your machines don't phone home (they aren't connected to a phone line), they assume that you have installed the second receiver at your Dad's house or something. They call you to manually check the screens while they listen. If they think they detect any shenanigans (um, my TV doesn't work, the power just went out, the dog chewed up my remote, etc.) they disable your receivers.

To the people who are worried that they are permanently disabled, ... don't be. I was out of town when they tried to call me. I called them back and told them that I was out of town in California, and my housesitting technophobic inlaws were the only ones there and would NOT be able to figure out what to do. They immediately zapped all 4 of my secondary receivers (INCLUDING one that WAS hooked up to a phone line). When I returned, I called them up (they only work bankers hours, so no night or weekend calls... I had to come home for lunch to fix the situation). Bottom line, the manuals stated that you are REQUIRED to have them plugged in. If you ignore that note, than you have to deal with these guys. If you can read back the status screens without sounding like you are on the cell phone with your buddy (who could be giving you the info they want), then they reactivate them (all 4 of mine are fine again). This isn't a smart bomb that fries the receiver, but it is disabled and the regular E* CSRs can't reactivate them. You have to go through the anti-piracy audit team....


----------



## manicd

> And that's exactly why I'm against anyone (and I mean anyone) from being able to block their number when calling a cellphone. If I have to pay to receive the call on my cellphone, callers shouldn't be able to cravenly hide their number, regardless of whether or not they have to pay to make the call!


And I am against cell phones becuase they don't identify the calling party. All cellphones should be required to be registered to someone and display their name to the called party. Not just show a phone number.


----------



## mruk69

About 5 or six months ago I got home and my mother tells me that Dish Network called and left a number. My mother can not speak English well and canm bearly understand it. So I called the number I beleive it was a 866 or 888 number but can't remember. I dialed the number and it rings a couple of times and them goes blank. so I hung up and tried again got the same thing again. After the 3rd or 4th time I just say their on the phone and it started to ring again and someone answered Dish Network. They asked why I was calling and I explained the situation, she told me she has no idea why I received the call and to ignore it. Have never received a call like that since. Hell, all I have is one 301 no extra receivers on my account and its plugged in to the phone line. I am subscribing to AT180 + HBO and Locals.
\


----------



## Dang The Hung

Well, I guess Dish Network has no intentions of rectifying the situation. I have sent 4 emails and call customer service and spoke to the gestapos over at the audit team demanding to speak with someone higher up. Here I am 6 days later since those nazi muffins called me a liar and a theif and my receivers are still turned off. I hope every poster in here who subscribes to dish network is reading this thread and asking yourself is this the type of service and treatment you want.

Well, I guess its off to direct tv with me. Good luck to those of you who have yet to be contacted by the dish network SS.


----------



## manicd

Dang The Hung said:


> Well, I guess Dish Network has no intentions of rectifying the situation. I have sent 4 emails and call customer service and spoke to the gestapos over at the audit team demanding to speak with someone higher up. Here I am 6 days later since those nazi muffins called me a liar and a theif and my receivers are still turned off. I hope every poster in here who subscribes to dish network is reading this thread and asking yourself is this the type of service and treatment you want.
> 
> Well, I guess its off to direct tv with me. Good luck to those of you who have yet to be contacted by the dish network SS.


Have you tried calling Echostar Corporate offices? 303-723-1000. You might actually get somebody there that might be able to help you.


----------



## Spruceman

"And I am against cell phones becuase they don't identify the calling party. All cellphones should be required to be registered to someone and display their name to the called party. Not just show a phone number"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

They should at least be required to show the name -- to me, that's even more important than the number, which a caller from a cell might want to protect to avoid callbacks that would cost him airtime. But he/she shouldn't be calling anonymously and expect an answer.

OTOH, such cell companies as Cingular give people on a family plan only two options: either show all family (household) members as the name of the account holder only, or have secondary phones show as "wireless caller." What self-respecting teenage boy would want his friends see his mother's name on the Caller ID when he makes a call?. The cellcos should enable individualized names on family plans.

As a data hound, I wish Caller ID could show those ANI-2 codes that let operators, et. al. know what kind of a phone is calling: POTS, cell, payphone, hotelroom phone, prison phone, etc. etc. [Just as I wish e-mails could show whether the writer is using dialup, FIOS, DSL, cable, satellite, etc.] -- those deregulatory ads belittleing knowing a source notwithstanding.


----------



## MarkA

"I don't think it's possible though to "account stack" with Cable.. is it now"

With an immediate neighbor (running off the same tap), sure. Network control can find a box pretty close to where it's plugged in (not sure exactly how close, but I know it's no closer than the tap and it might be the nearest upstream LE (Line Extender)), but not that close. Neighbors get just extended basic, you get two boxes on your account and split the bills and the boxes with your neighbors.

Not that I condone this or anything, DON'T DO IT, but yeah, it's certainly possible with cable.


----------



## wpmealey

This is an interesting subject, my daughter had the audit three days ago and has since changed to Direct. They treated her like a thief when she explained that one of the receivers was in the truck of her husband, who is a long haul truck driver. They added that receiver about 4 years ago and had to fill out paper work to verify the truck driver situation. Apparently that was OK 4 years ago, but has suddenly become illegal. Her husband called dish and the cr was amazed that they cut off the receiver, and transferred him to a supervisor who was also amazed but said that her husband would have to call a number to get it turned back on but he would have to wait until morning to call. He called the number the next morning, and guess who he got. Thats right, the audit department that again told him he would have to have a separate account.

When my daughter called up to cancel her dish 8 year old account, currently $115 per month they asked if she would reconsider if they let the truck account stay on the current account. She refused and explained in great detail the reasons why. She is also composing a letter to CEO Charlie about the whole situation.

Dish lost at least one customer, and will probably lose others when she tells of the experience to friends. I am a dish customer for 10 years at 105 per month and will strongly consider switching now that directs HD DVR is down in price. I have a 901 that I can return to Costco for a full refund (bless Costco's liberal return policy)


Sorry if this has turned out too wordy, but I am also PO'd about the treatment she received.

Bill


----------



## zmark

> She is also composing a letter to CEO Charlie about the whole situation


Why waste time writing a letter nobody will read???


----------



## DoyleS

In our service oriented business, we have a phrase that says, " We only have one reputation to lose!". In this case it seems like Dish has brought a group in to address what they perceive as a problem and the group is now creating problems. Considering that the poll shows that about 8-9% get audited and now of those 8-9% it would seem that about 40-50% of those are bad news experiences. Charlie talks about needing Compelling programming for HD. It would seem that the more compelling need is for customers. If they are going to compete with the almost unlimited bandwidth of cable, they are going to have to offer services that are compelling. Seems it would not be hard to be able to handle a secondary account for truckers, motorhomes or vacation homes. Clearly they would have a market advantage over cable but if they expect a full new account at normal rates then they have no market advantage. Once someone is offended by a company, it is hard to ever win them back as customers and you can imagine what amount of referral business they would get. 
This has proved to be a very interesting thread.

..Doyle


----------



## ehren

That's why JD Power dropped their sorry A$$es to #4. Behind CABLE!!!! CABLE!!!!


----------



## AllieVi

wpmealey said:


> ... She is also composing a letter to CEO Charlie about the whole situation. ...


To improve the chances that the letter is seen by management and not just the underling who opens the mail, send copies to the highest levels of DirecTV, the local cable company and the FCC. Make sure the fact that the letter is going to those places is mentioned in the letter. Make it short and civil.

This issue is the sort of thing that DISH management wouldn't like to have brought up at a meeting with counterparts at D*, cable and the FCC. Creating the possibility of that event is much more likely to result in actions by DISH.


----------



## UHF

wpmealey said:


> She is also composing a letter to CEO Charlie about the whole situation.


Send it certified mail, CC to your local media. THAT will get their attention.


----------



## Dang The Hung

I can't even cancel my account through the normal channels. I call customer service to cancel my account because of the gestapo team fiasco and I am told that I have to call the gestapo team to even cancel my account. This is ridiculous. I have nothing to say to those jerks. I have the mind to just stop sending them money every month, that should get my account canceled.

#1 in customer service !? Yeah right, who do they think they are B.S.ing


----------



## davemanfl

Both of my recivers hooke to phone line 24x7


----------



## Evil Capserian

Hey check this out. I got one of those random dish calls asking for the location ID on my cell phone while I was at work. I told them I don't have one and they said they will disconnect all boxes if I dont provide number now. I told them I am at work and I dont have them numbers. So they hung up, I got home, and they disconnected all my boxes. So I called dish and complained to some supervisor I guess he was from India cause I thought he sounded like the guy at my local 7-11. I told him if they did not reconnect the boxes in less than 5 minutes, I would cancel all my services and switch to DTV plus I was going to write a letter to the FCC about harassment issues over the phone. Well they reconnected them in 5 minutes plus I got free hbo and showtime for 2 months. So everyone dont give in to those random calls from dish just like that. Be stern and show them who is boss. Dish thinks everyone who has more then 1 receiver is a crook.


----------



## Bill R

Evil Capserian said:


> Dish thinks everyone who has more then 1 receiver is a crook.


Yes, that seems to be the take of the receiver audit team. I'm glad to see that some of their customers are standing up for what is clearly becoming more of a customer harassment project than anything else.

While I haven't got a call from the audit team and likely never will (all of my receivers are plugged into a phone line) I did complain to someone fairly high up in DISH's food chain about the way the audits are being conducted (they have treated a few seniors I know really poorly). He said that they would review the script that the auditors were using and _might_ change things a bit. I reminded him that DISH is FAR from the only game in town and people will remember how badly they were treated by the audit team and will warn their friends not to choose DISH. I also reminded him that DISH could have a big class action lawsuit on their hands if they cut off service to customers who have done nothing wrong.


----------



## Bill R

Dang The Hung said:


> I call customer service to cancel my account because of the gestapo team fiasco and I am told that I have to call the gestapo team to even cancel my account. This is ridiculous. I have nothing to say to those jerks. I have the mind to just stop sending them money every month, that should get my account canceled.


If they have cut off ALL of your receivers they CAN NOT charge you. In your state (Ga.), it is illegal for them to charge you for service you are not receiving (check with your states attorney general's office).

DISH is really doing a poor job with the receiver audit team and if things don't change I bet we will see a BIG class action law suit.


----------



## nsafreak

I'm suprised a regular CSR was able to reactivate your boxes. From what I've read in the other thread once the audit team hits your account they are the only ones that can do anything to it from that point on. I wouldn't be suprised if you get another call from the audit team in the near future.


----------



## SimpleSimon

*DISH: READ THIS*

I forward my home phone to my cell.

I do high-end multi-receiver installs almost exclusively.

If I EVER get a call like this from the F'ing audit team, I will make sure the new customer hears it.

What do you think they'll think, huh?

I will then offer to install D* instead.

What do you think they'll do, huh?

This mistreatment of honest customers has gone on for too long.

*GET A CLUE!*


----------



## BobMurdoch

Amen Simon. I understand that SOME of the people who don't hook up phone lines are doing it to avoid paying additional subscriptions for 2nd homes, their parents, etc.

However, assuming that we are home watching TV from 9-5 Mon-Fri is asinine. I work for a living and only get to watch my TV on nights and weekends..... and your crack audit team (or your audit team on crack, depending who you are talking to), only works old fashioned bankers hours.

You need a better system. I'm al for chasing pirates, however I DO think you might want to give your customers a chance to get home before you yank service and make us lose all secondary receivers.

The capabilities and pricing gap between cable and satellite is shrinking daily. It would be a REAL shame if you flushed 10 years of hard work down the drain as you caught some law abiding citizens in your sting operation and pissed them off.


----------



## Evil Capserian

nsafreak said:


> I'm suprised a regular CSR was able to reactivate your boxes. From what I've read in the other thread once the audit team hits your account they are the only ones that can do anything to it from that point on. I wouldn't be suprised if you get another call from the audit team in the near future.


Wasnt a regular CSR, it was as supervisor who turned me on.


----------



## JohnGfun

Evil Capserian said:


> Wasnt a regular CSR, it was as supervisor who turned me on.


I hope it was a women! :eek2:


----------



## ilovedbs

I agree, totally uncalled for. Dish needs to do a better job at customer service.


----------



## ehren

BobMurdoch said:


> Amen Simon. I understand that SOME of the people who don't hook up phone lines are doing it to avoid paying additional subscriptions for 2nd homes, their parents, etc.
> 
> However, assuming that we are home watching TV from 9-5 Mon-Fri is asinine. I work for a living and only get to watch my TV on nights and weekends..... and your crack audit team (or your audit team on crack, depending who you are talking to), only works old fashioned bankers hours.
> 
> You need a better system. I'm al for chasing pirates, however I DO think you might want to give your customers a chance to get home before you yank service and make us lose all secondary receivers.
> 
> The capabilities and pricing gap between cable and satellite is shrinking daily. It would be a REAL shame if you flushed 10 years of hard work down the drain as you caught some law abiding citizens in your sting operation and pissed them off.


Well the owner who installed my folks superdish at their cottage said if you own both homes you can have receivers on the same account at both residents. You pay the 4.99 fee for each receiver. They pay the 5.99 monthly home advantage warranty and they installed a superdish at their primary home for $29. So Dish better not be playing that audit crap with them!


----------



## chaddux

ehren said:


> Well the owner who installed my folks superdish at their cottage said if you own both homes you can have receivers on the same account at both residents. You pay the 4.99 fee for each receiver. They pay the 5.99 monthly home advantage warranty and they installed a superdish at their primary home for $29. So Dish better not be playing that audit crap with them!


Actually, that's the type of situation where the audit team would be accomplishing its goal. It is against DISH's rules to have receivers at different locations (whether they are owned by the same person or not) without having two separate accounts. Whether you agree with the rule or not, it is DISH's rule and they are entitled to enforce that rule if they so choose.


----------



## Satpro92

ehren said:


> Well the owner who installed my folks superdish at their cottage said if you own both homes you can have receivers on the same account at both residents. You pay the 4.99 fee for each receiver. They pay the 5.99 monthly home advantage warranty and they installed a superdish at their primary home for $29. So Dish better not be playing that audit crap with them!


Wrong! This is exactually why they are doing the audit,along with friends and relatives sharing the same account.


----------



## Darkman

Evil.. Gestapo tactics (were told in another thread)


----------



## kenglish

Why is Charlie so worried about a few "Account Stackers". Doesn't he already make tons of money? 

He certainly has no qualms about helping people rip off the local channels.....with "moving", free DVRs (so you don't watch the commercials that pay for the programming), etc.


----------



## ehren

Well then they are being completely lied to, how is having 2 homes different than an RV? It's not like they are at both places at the same time!


----------



## James Long

ehren said:


> Well then they are being completely lied to, how is having 2 homes different than an RV? It's not like they are at both places at the same time!


Please don't apply logic, we are talking about the rules.

Using one account for two homes remains against those rules. E* doesn't seem to mind when the 2nd use is temporary (although by the letter of the rule it is still wrong). RV usage is something that E* has to allow for - 2nd home usage isn't.

JL


----------



## AllieVi

ehren said:


> Well the owner who installed my folks superdish at their cottage said if you own both homes you can have receivers on the same account at both residents.


Your folks relied on guidance from someone who didn't know or didn't want to abide by the rules. Their quarrel is with that person, not DISH.


----------



## scooper

ehren - let me give you 2 different scenarios, one that will probably be "OK" by the rules and one that won't.

Situation 1 - Family has multiple receivers and a "weekend cabin" in the mountains / out on the lake. They have dishes installed at both locations (along with TVs), but they take a receiver (or 2) from their primary residence to the weekend retreat.

Situation 2 - same type family, same situation, but this family is lazy and leaves one receiver at the weekend home.

Situation 1 is, by just about all accounts, acceptable under Dish's current rules. Situation 2 (that deliberatly mirrors your parent's) does not.

Crazy ? yes, but that's the way it looks.

BTW - I agree that your folks situation should be OK, I was just pointing out Dish's rules and what "the letter of the rules" really is.


----------



## ehren

Lazy is pretty irrelivant BTW. If Dish does hassle them I will endorse a letter to the BBB myself. I did not reccomend Dishnetwork to them for this bull****. Yet I feel this may be the calm before the storm.


----------



## Richard King

My theory on why the "weekend cabin" or "second home" is not acceptable...

A person may have a second home that they use 4-5 times a year, the rest of the year renting it out to whoever will bear the freight. They would consider this a violation of the rules because they are not the users of the system. I used to own a condo right on the ocean here. It was about 2 miles up the road from my house. I always tried to keep it rented, but when it wasn't it would not be uncommon for me to spend much time there, either working on the place or enjoying the place. If I were to stack a receiver on my house account and install it at the condo Dish would have a rightful problem. I am sure this isn't all THAT common, but I am also sure that it is done fairly often and that they want to put a stop to it. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are many real estate investors who have a couple of full time rental properties who also have multiple receivers on the same account. 

The RV exemption makes sense because people don't generally rent out their RV to other people, and besides, in some of those things removing and installing a receiver can be a real mess.


----------



## James Long

Weekend homes are not acceptable ... but if you do it by taking a receiver from your home FOR the time away and then return that receiver to your home when you return and connect it to the proper phone line when it is back home (and ONLY when it is home) Dish probably won't notice.

Things that attract notice:
Multiple Receivers not connected to phone lines (as specified in their Terms of Service).
Receivers being connected to the wrong phone line.
Receivers never connected to any phone line.
Receivers disconnected from the satellite service for a length of time (no alarm at E* but the receiver automatically turns off its own channels).

Things that prevent notice from being attracted:
Properly connecting all receivers to the same phone line and leaving them connected.
Properly filing RV exceptions, including the proper proof of ownership of an RV, for receivers used on the road.
In other words - following the rules.

JL


----------



## wpmealey

I suggest you read the residential agreement. No where is there any mention of an RV exemption, or any exemption. I am aware that a few years ago they did allow for RV and long haul truck drivers to have have a unit on the existing house hold contract. They even required some proof of the situation. This seems to have disappeared lately, see my contribution about my daughters husband a couple of pages back.

Incidentally, Direct does have the exemption spelled out in their agreement.

Bill


----------



## SimpleSimon

The PDF form for RV & Commercial trucker exemption is still on their website - it's just hard to find. I saw it a few days ago, but no clue as to which page. I'm pretty sure a copy has been posted to the forum somewhere, too.


----------



## AllieVi

SimpleSimon said:


> The PDF form for RV & Commercial trucker exemption is still on their website - it's just hard to find. I saw it a few days ago, but no clue as to which page. I'm pretty sure a copy has been posted to the forum somewhere, too.


It may not be on the website, but they'll mail you an application if you call and ask. I'll attach a low-resolution version of the form here.

(edit) - Oops - found it on their website - it's at:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/getdish/what_is/RVDeclaration.pdf

You can also do a search for "RV" to locate it


----------



## James Long

wpmealey said:


> I suggest you read the residential agreement.


Really? The one that says that if I maintain subscription to AT50, AT100CD, AT150, DL or DL max I don't have to pay the "service access fee"? Sounds like an up to date contract to me.  The residential agreement does NOT form the entirtey of the rules.

The RV/Truck form is generally there to give you distant networks regardless of whether your service location is within a white area (as permitted by law). But it also serves to let E* know that your receiver won't be calling in.

JL


----------



## Dang The Hung

After 4 different phone calls spread over 3 days, I finally got my serviced cancelled. Regular CSR couldn't even cancel my account because the customer harrasment team put a lock on my account. So I had to call the harrassment team but kept getting hung up on everytime I called. 

On my 4th and final call, I called E* corporate offices and spoke to an account executive named Richard. I told him the situation and he said that the once the gestapos over at the harrasment team had locked an account they were the only ones who could make changes. He said he would put on hold until he got someone from the harrasment team on the line to speak with me. So after waiting for 10 minutes he connected me to Mellisa, who tried to apologize for the getsapo tatics her team was responsible for, but non-chalantly disconnected my service and said I would be responsible for any additional charges, to which I replied I would not pay due to the treatment I was given.

I was never offered any kind of retention to keep me as a customer. Their attitude was simply we don't care that you have been with us since Feb 1998, we don't want your money. So adios for Dish. Good thing I work for a national electronic retails store. We sell both Dish and Direct systems and when I get to work today I am going to send out a company wide email of my terrible experience with Dish and from now on when I have customers coming in to buy a satellite system I will be sharing my experience with Dish and the horrendus customer treatment and offer Directv as a better alternative.


----------



## Dang The Hung

Just sent an firery email off to [email protected] and [email protected] I doubt it will get read, but we'll see.


----------



## Darkman

meanwhile lots still say that DISH is way better then DirecTV...

But what's the problem, Dang?
couldn't you just give them what they want to get reconnected?

Others went through that..and after giving them what they want - had their services reconnected...

Let them call you .. say at your convinience .. and read the ID #s to them....


----------



## Evil Capserian

And many have left dish because of scare tactics by this audit team. If many more will follow and leave dish back to cable or dtv, dish will learn, if not, than its a hopeless battle we common folks are fighting.


----------



## ehren

Why stay with Dish if it's gonna keep occuring? I sure as hell won't, I hate cable but they have some pretty tasty offers and I have always thought Charter has good CSR's.


----------



## billpa

Darkman said:


> meanwhile lots still say that DISH is way better then DirecTV...
> But what's the problem, Dang?
> couldn't you just give them what they want to get reconnected?
> Let them call you .. say at your convinience .. and read the ID #s to them....


He DID read the ID numbers and the Audit SOBs said it was wrong...what do you do then???


----------



## Darkman

read again another time.. hopefully the right ones


----------



## jsanders

The problem was that he left his receivers on 24/7 because he doesn't like to see static when he turns his TV on. As a result, the receivers never downloaded new software. Some have said that the location ID algorythms changed with the new software, and that is why he reported wrong numbers to them.

It seems silly that E* wouldn't check your location IDs based on the software version the customer reports, that is the reason why all of this started.

It would be nice if he could prove that the audit team needs to handle this scenario.

If he just wants to give in, then he needs to let the receivers do their updates by putting them in standby, and then call back.


----------



## Darkman

yup.. that would be a solution...

and then .. pass their test.. and have them on again 24/7 as previously....


----------



## BobMurdoch

ehren said:


> Why stay with Dish if it's gonna keep occuring? I sure as hell won't, I hate cable but they have some pretty tasty offers and I have always thought Charter has good CSR's.


Once more from the top.......

1. Better Picture
2. Better Pricing (for what I want at least)
3. Charlie has his bad moments, but better than any cable weasels ANY day of the week.
4. Sirius
5. Voom
6. Grandfathered Distants
7. Extacy/Playboy available via monthly subscription (not just PPV)
8. 4 PVRS, 1 4900, 2 SW64s, and all cables and switches. Too damn expensive to walk away from (ie. would have to spend $$$$ t get same capabilities with Cable) .
9. Superstations.


----------



## nsafreak

You know after reading through this a few times I can't help but wonder why Dan simply didn't let the software on his receivers update and then call back to pass their test. I strongly doubt they're going to have the folks calling to audit setup so they can get a location ID from any given software version. Because quite frankly some of their receivers have gone through at least 30-40 different software versions.


----------



## Dang The Hung

Darkman said:


> meanwhile lots still say that DISH is way better then DirecTV...
> 
> But what's the problem, Dang?
> couldn't you just give them what they want to get reconnected?
> 
> Others went through that..and after giving them what they want - had their services reconnected...
> 
> Let them call you .. say at your convinience .. and read the ID #s to them....


You think after the way I was belittled and talked to on the phone that I would want to call those *******s back and give them what they wanted!? Ok maybe you like to roll over and be treated like human garbage to a business that you patronize, but I sure as hell don't. And BTW after the nice gestapo auditor got finished raping my account, he said that I could never reactivate those receivers on the same account again...ever. There was no mention of updating the software and then calling them back to give them the correct location numbers or whatever the hell that wanted.

I don't feel like explaining myself for the umpteenth time, so go back a few pages and read all about it. I bought all my recievers, and for dish to have the nerve to make me audit something I bought and paid for with my own money is dispicable. The burden of proof should be on them, not the on the customer.

Furthermore, the auditor said that my recievers needed to be connected to a phone line at all times so the smartcards could update and the receivers could get the software download. My receivers aren't connected to a phone line because my house was built in 1953 and only has one phone line in the den/computer room and I am not running phone lines across the floor so the receivers can be hooked up and I sure as hell ain't paying $60 a piece for wireless phone jack especially when I was told I wouldn't need them when I originally bought my system 8 years ago.


----------



## Darkman

I understand..and sympathetic...

But the trade off now is - NO More DISH Network for you .. looks like - cuz of all of this.... 

and more likely .. they are just making kinda a scape-goat, an example, etc.. out of you and few simular cases.. .. - by you coming to places like here, and telling your story.. will keep others paranoid.. with more phone-lines connected, less actual account stacking, etc etc .. 

it's more likely worth it to them... - to lose a few ... but at the same time if it reducing actual account stacking in any way - Bingo! .. Goal is accomplished.. Principle is shown, etc etc...
Seems like it's their newest tougher campaign on the subject.. now that the card swap is almost all but complete... they feel or suspect where so to speak "the rats will be running now" (not you of course.. but just describing their concept, strategy) ... and are on a New, Tougher Campaign cuz of this ... Looks like this anyhow


----------



## Kali05

just curious how do u know if u pass the audit? does anyone know?


----------



## nsafreak

Uh I would guess they would tell you that you passed the audit or the other indicator would be that all of your receivers stay on.


----------



## Ron Barry

Once you give the numbers and if they are correct they will say thank you and that indicates that you passed audit. Going to merge this thread with the massive Audit thread we got going if I can find it.


----------



## Darkman

You don't lose your TV.. and all your receivers are working ----> I guessed you passed it then


----------



## Dang The Hung

Well after filing a complaint with the BBB, here is Dish Network's response to the complaint:

_Dear Mr. Hung:

On September 6, 2005, we received your complaint, dated September 
2, 2005, filed with the Better Business Bureau.

You expressed concern about the audit on your DISH Network 
account. Unfortunately, because we were unable to verify that all 
receivers were in your household, you are unable to use all 
receivers on the same account. However, if you would like to have 
separate accounts for the receivers, you may use them. We cannot 
refund equipment charges unless it was purchased directly from 
DISH Network within the last thirty days.

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience you may have 
experienced, as the satisfaction of our customers is of great 
importance to us. If there are further questions or concerns 
about this issue, please feel free to contact me at 
(720)514-8706.

Sincerely,

Trista Wood 
Dispute Resolution Specialist 
DISH Network 
Trista.Wood @echostar.com

cc: Ms. Suzann Bacon 
Dispute Resolution Manager 
Denver/Boulder Better Business Bureau 
1020 Cherokee Street 
Denver, Colorado 80204 _

Somehow, I don't think they will let me have 5 seperate accounts at one address. Nice to know that the satisfaction of their customers is of great importance while they treat them like crooks


----------



## DoyleS

It looks like your only alternative at this point is to liquidate the receivers on ebay and move to a different service. 

No question the thread on the audit team has put some level of concern in people. I wondered myself how I would handle it if they called at an inappropriate time. For instance, we had about 20 people over for dinner last Sunday afternoon and I wouldn't have been too happy about interrupting that to go around and read numbers off of receivers. (2 of my receivers are connected to phone lines and the third is not) Obviously if I come home from work and there is a message on the answering machine to call them it is fairly easy to get everything turned on and give them what they want. I have to say, I am not married to their service. Small inconveniences I can deal with but if it goes beyond that, I am down the road. 

..Doyle


----------



## Stewart Vernon

What happens if you don't even answer the phone?

Seriously... I have caller ID, and often don't answer the phone if the caller ID information doesn't reflect who is calling. Many times I get those "Customer Service" or "Toll Free Number" identifications on incoming calls, and I don't answer them. Most times the people don't leave messages, so I just continue to ignore.

If they call and you don't answer, do they at least leave messages on an answering machine?

I'm not worried about anything... but with all the stories I've seen posted here, I wondered if they would ever disconnect someone because they couldn't get an answer if they weren't leaving messages?

Probably they haven't been calling me, as I only have 2 receivers anyway.


----------



## James Long

HDMe said:


> What happens if you don't even answer the phone?


No contact, no channels. If you 'are not home' when the audit team calls they have been known to send the kill signals.

JL


----------



## Darkman

No... i would think they d try phoning back .. (few times anyhow) .. before killing the signal...


----------



## James Long

Darkman said:


> No... i would think they d try phoning back .. (few times anyhow) .. before killing the signal...


You would think and I would hope, but read back through this thread and you will see examples of people who got the call on voicemail who came home to dead receivers.

If one always ignores the call the 'few times' will pass.

JL


----------



## n0qcu

They will call twice. They will leave a message saying that this is not a sales call and you need to call them. After they call the second time is when they send the kill signal if you don't answer.


----------



## DoyleS

I can handle my one phone unconnected receiver going down for a day or so because I am not around when the call comes in, but I would be livid if they took down the two that are connected to the phone line. By the same token I wouldn't expect to have to go through an ordeal to get it turned back on. At this point, I am not buying new hardware for Dish. Until they bring out the new receivers, it seems pointless to spend my money on something that could be going obsolete in the next year. Boy, this thread sure has a way of getting one's blood pressure up.

..Doyle


----------



## manicd

Dang The Hung said:


> Well after filing a complaint with the BBB, here is Dish Network's response to the complaint:
> 
> _Dear Mr. Hung:
> 
> On September 6, 2005, we received your complaint, dated September
> 2, 2005, filed with the Better Business Bureau.
> _


_

That's one msitake for sure. The BBB is really a joke. Who you should really contact is the State Attorney General's Office for consumer affairs in Colorado and your home state. They at least have legal recourse to start a suit or whatever when they invetstigate._


----------



## DoyleS

One of the things that really works well here in the San Jose area is the local Action Line in the newpaper. This has been particularly true with regard to the local cable companies. Gestapo tactics by these companies get pretty good coverage and usually they quickly figure out that it doesn't make sense to be advertising in the newspaper on one page while the consumer support reporter is airing their dirty laundry. On the same token, you have got to have a real case and if there are any fuzzy areas you probably get kicked to the curb. 

..Doyle


----------



## Stewart Vernon

n0qcu said:


> They will call twice. They will leave a message saying that this is not a sales call and you need to call them. After they call the second time is when they send the kill signal if you don't answer.


As long as they left a message, I would call them back. I always figure if it was an important/real call (not lame telemarketing) the person will leave a message. If they don't leave a message, it must not be important. I always call back people who leave messages like that.

Not really worried in my case though, as I don't seem to fit the demographic of the random audit checks. I don't have lots of active receivers nor do I have any dual-tuner ones or the latest/greatest technology.


----------



## AlexRust

What information every receiver transmit back to mothership over the phone line? 
Is any official info posted anywhere? 

I am concern about being monitored of my viewing habits. 

Is D* will guaranty our privacy. I don't mind to connect phone lines to the receivers if my privacy intact!!! Can we get sworn affidavit from D* what actually transmitted at night. Any comments?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I don't know about viewing habits in general... but it kinda has to communicate any PPV habits in order to bill you for them, so at least that kind of viewing info is not private.

Frankly, while I value my privacy... I figure if I pay to watch something like HBO, I assume they think I'm watching all kinds of stuff on there from family comedies to late night X-rated stuff... so it wouldn't bother me if they knew what I was watching.


----------



## ehren

LOL dam the stuff on HBO at night is borderline XXX these days, I hate falling asleep with the tv on HBO these days, my wife thinks I am ordering it!


----------



## Alpaca Bill

I got the call back in early July but at that time I had not heard of the Audit Team. This is our story. Well actually my wife did kinda'. She was at home with the kids and all of a sudden the tv went blank and all channels were unsubscribed. She didn't want to bother me since I was out of town so she tried to deal with it herself. She called in and spoke to a CSR but was then transferred to the audit team. She explained what had happened and they told her that they had left a voice mail for us the previous day and since we ignored it they shut off all our receivers. Well first off with 4 kids (ages 4, twins at 2 and a 1 month old baby) and 2 businesses to run, we sometimes don't listen to our VM for a coule days at a time. The people that need to get a hold of quickly know to call our cell phones or get us at work. Secondly, I have been a customer since 1996, subscribe to the Everything Pak, pay yearly and have autopay for ppv, have locals and HD pack along with Voom pkg, plus we have 5 receivers so I pay the extra fees for them. Anyway, she tried to deal with the gestapo guy. She explained to him that it wasn't a very convenient time to deal with this since she was at home by herself with the 4 kids and that we were in the process of packing up the house since we were moving and that some of the receivers had been disconnected from the tvs already and that she was trying to cook dinner. She also told him that one of the receivers (our 301) was with me at the new house in our RV. He told her that we need to connect all the receivers at the same time for the audit to be successful. She asked if they could activate the programming until I got home the next day. Since she "wasn't being cooperative" they told her "NO" and then hung up on her. She called me and told me what was going on. I called in to the number they had left on VM on my cell and had to wait for a few minutes. When my call was answered they guy explained what this was and said it was due to the fact my receivers were not connected to a phoneline. You know "a random receiver audit and I just happened to be the lucky guy that got picked" line. Anyway, I told him I was in a different state dealing with our general contractor for the new house so I wouldn't be able to perform any testing or give him any info off the screens until the next afternoon when I returned home. I also told him that my wife was home with the 4 kids and without the tv they would drive her crazy. I told him that this was no way for a very good customer to be treated and if they did not turn the programming back on I would cancel the account and switch to D* or cable. His response was that it was my perogative to choose who I used for tv programming and that D* also had the phoneline requirement. To which I responded that most of my receivers had never been connected to a phone line since they are in built-in entertainment centers that did not have a phine line run to them. Anyway, after 45 minutes of bickering I mananged to get the 4 receivers turned back on for a period of one week. He would not turn the 301 back on unless it was connected to a phone line since he had been told it was in an RV. Which was technically true but it too was not connected. It was wrapped up in a towel in a canvas bag in the RV. The next day when I got home I called him back on my cell. I then went to the 508 and 921 that were still connected to performing a phoneline test, which both of them failed eventhough they hooked up to the phone line. In any case he told me to go the next receiver, I told him that it (508) and the other 921 were disconnected from the tvs since we were moving. He said that I should call back when all of the receivers were hooked up and that I needed to call in on the landline. To which I explained that the phone line was set to be disconnected tomorrow and it would probably be 2-3 weeks before we get settled in at the new house and that we still hadn't decided if we were even going to get a landline since we were looking at VoIP. I then asked him what they do for customers that use their cell phones or have VoIP. He said they have a way to check the receivers in that case. I responded "Great why don't you just do that?" He said it could not be done in my case since they had been told that the 301 was in an RV. He could temporarily turn the other 4 receivers on but that the 301 would have to be connected to a phone line before he could turn that one back on. I told him that even if we were not moving the 301 was used in the unfinished basement which had no phone lines in it. I also told him that it had never been connected to a phone line because even at our old house it was always used in the basement which had no phone lines. So I told him to go ahead and get the others turned on and I would deal with him later on the 301. So we went back to the whole why did the receivers fail the test when they are connected issue. He told me to call him right back on the land line. I did and he had me go get some info from the 2 receivers and then force them to try to call in. Well the phone line clicked at the first receiver, the receiver had tried to call in byt when it didn't get a dial tone it hung up. I asked if he had heard that and his reply was "You're calling from the same line the receivers are hooked up to?" "Of course that is what you told me to do since I had used my cell the frist time." "Well you need to hang up wit me and force the recievers to call in and then call me back on the landline" "Why couldn't we do this testing when I was on my cell?" "Because you could be anywhere, how do I know you are not driving over to someone else's home to get the info?" "Because you would hear me doing so and the long delay between receiver checks would hopefully tip you off. You can hear me walking all over my house and up and down the stairs." So I told him that I had 2 meetings that I was late for and asked if I could call him back after those meetings. He told me that they are only available M-F 9-5 and it was Fri. I told him I would call back on Mon then. Well over the weekend my aunt/godmother died due to her 19 month battle with cancer and her wake was Mon and funeral on Tue. Wed we were all emotionally exhausted so we did nothing. I then called in on Thur to deal with this one more time. I could not get back to him but was told he told the rep I was talking to that all he needed to do was to confirm the 301's connection. I explained that it hadn't been connected yet and wouldn't be until we were at the new house and the whole 2-3 week thing. He sput me on hold and came back and said that the 301 would then be permanently deactivated and that the other 4 would be also in 4 days. At which point I blew up at him. I told him that due to the technilogical shortsightedness of Dish I was going to be shafted by having them deactivate perfectly legal receivers that I had bought and paid in full. I told him I wanted to speak to a supervisor to which he replied that they do not operate that way and that they are all equal and have full decisive power over my account and their receivers. I corrected him and said MY receivers and told him that if the receivers were turned off even for a second that they would find themselves in lawsuit. I am a very loyal customer that has been with Dish since they started up, have had at least one of every receiver they introduce, even the miserable DishPlayers and now 2 of the horrendous 921s, referred at least 20 customers, and now I am being treated like this. His response was "Yep" and hung up. I have sent several emails to "[email protected]" and my wife wrote letters to Dish, and several of our state representatives (senators, reps, BBB, AG, etc.) explaining what was going on. We have gotten no responses at all. Well here we are in Sept and we still haven't settled in (we moved in almost 8 weeks ago) since my wife had an emergency appendectomy 8 days after the move and we still have yet to decide what type of phone service we want. We are currently just using our cell phones and have been thinking about just leaving it that way. Here in IN a basic phone line runs you $18/month plus the $65 installation fee. This does not include any calls even to a toll free number...all calls would be billed at pretty high rates unless I get one of their call packs which would then run more money. I have the 2 921s hooked up but obviously they do not have phonelines to them. It will probably be another several weeks before I get to hook up the other receivers to their tvs. We have also ordered VoIP thru Verizon but have not called Dish yet to see what the audit team wants to do now since I don't want to get the 2 921s or the other receivers turned off and with the other receivers not hooked up it could very well happen.

I was told that Dish stopped doing the RV exemption eventhough I had one. I told them that they owed me a refund for the receiver since it was bought specifically for that purpose, bought it directly thru them, only gets used a total of 20-30 hours a year but I pay $6/month for it, and we should get grandfathered in since we have had it since 2000, well before the big brother mentality set in. Their response was "sorry"...interpretation "well that's what you get for actually listening to us! Go jump in a lake, we don't care about our customers especially the ones that have spent tens of thousands of dollars with us!"

Dish really needs to 1) step up and take care of their most loyal customers, 2) bring their technology into the 21st century and dump the landline concept, 3) GET A CLUE IN REGARDS TO CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!!  :nono2:   :nono2:


----------



## kb7oeb

I thought I read somewhere that you could take the smart card from the RV receiver and let it call in from a receiver connected to a landline?


----------



## James Long

kb7oeb said:


> I thought I read somewhere that you could take the smart card from the RV receiver and let it call in from a receiver connected to a landline?


No. Smartcards cannot be moved from machine to machine without causing more problems.

JL


----------



## DoyleS

Amazing story Alpaca Bill, The message that keeps coming through on all of the failed audits is that there is apparently no appeal process. Another interesting point is that these guys only work 9-5 M-F and I assume that is probably Central Time ?? It would seem that one of the ways Dish and DTV will address this is with the multi-tuner boxes. Pretty hard to account stack with a multi-tuner box especially if that one box is on a phone line. The disadvantage is that distribution of signals to the other boxes is via a single Coax and remodulator scheme. Not the best for quality and knocks out any possibility of HD or DD 5.1 distribution. VOiP and Cellphones compound the issue. All in all, a relatively tough nut to crack with no obvious solutions. 

..Doyle


----------



## Stalky14

Weren't they developing a 4-tuner box at one point? Maybe when the mpeg-4 switchout happens,
multiple boxes on one account will go away and they'll be installing a single box at the front end to
feed up to 4 TV's (maybe by optional plug-in tuner cards?). It seems like the cost-effective way to go:
one chassis, power supply, smartcard, UHF antenna apparattus, IF termination point, CPU and glue
logic, hard drive(?), etc. Just plug in tuner cards for every TV you have. Each card could come with
a UHF remote and have RF, HDMI, S-video, and RCA audio jacks on it, and include dongles for HDMI
-> DVI/SPDIF, and S-video->composite.

So Dish gets lower production costs, fewer models to manufacture, elimination of account stacking
possibility and the phone line/location ID, and the user gets a single unit that is out of the way,
could offer DVR and PIP to all TV's in the house, will work with existing cable TV wiring, no $5 
secondary box fees, and can just add cards as he adds TV's. If the cards offered digital modulation
for HD sets (a-la the 5000 adapter), that would be a plus too. They could also offer an IR to UHF
"settop" repeater for use with universal remotes. Could be a win-win all around. They just have
to get everybody over to the new architecture... and what better way than the MPEG-4 conversion.


----------



## James Long

One feature of the new boxes is their ability to talk to each other so only ONE per household needs to be connected to the phonelines. As long as the receivers can see each other and the one is connected E* will be happy.

JL


----------



## BobMurdoch

Which new boxes? How do they talk to each other? I missed that one......

I've got two boxes hooked up to phone lines and three that aren't due to inaccessibility issues. I STILL got audited (and zapped since I was out of town when the Dish Nazis called)


----------



## James Long

BobMurdoch said:


> Which new boxes? How do they talk to each other? I missed that one......


Unreleased ones.  You'll get the 411 eventually. :lol:

JL


----------



## scooper

Ok James - HOW will they "see" each other ?
Ethernet, phonenet, through the LNB ?


----------



## James Long

I believe it is some sort of power line wifi.

JL


----------



## Jacob S

Phone lines shouldnt be needed if the receivers will be able to communicate with each other or detect if they are all connected to the same dish or both. When they go to do the MPEG-4 swapouts they may end up doing it with those that have HD, then those with multiple receivers/higher programming packages, then the rest after that.


----------



## buddhawood

I received the call on my answering machine yesterday. I made sure I called back today before someone decided I waited too long. I talked to a nice lady who I could understand. She asked me for all the receiver,card,software version, bootstrap and Location ID numbers for each receiver and then asked me to reset my 811 and read off the numbers again. I have five receivers, three are hooked up to the phone line. One doesn't have easy access to a phone line and the other is my RV unit. Thanks to reading here I hooked up this unit so it was ready and I didn't want them to pull The "No RV exemptions" line. It took 19 minutes to do it all. Well, now I wonder when they'll come again? Has anyone had them call a SECOND time?


----------



## DoyleS

Buddawood,
What time of day did you call them back? Someone had mentioned that the audit guys were only there from 9-5. 
Seems to me you would be off the list for quite awhile. Another 20 minute call would be pretty close to harrassment. If they are only calling 10% of the people, it looks like they are focussing on the higher probability customers that have 4 or 5 receivers. 

..Doyle


----------



## BobMurdoch

I have 5 active which explains why they first tagged me for investigation on April of this year..... Two connected to a phone line, three weren't (no phone jacks nearby and I didn't feel like spending an extra $200 just to hook up three wireless phone jacks that I would never use on those receivers (PPV is locked out on those).


----------



## Spruceman

When they call, what shows up on the Caller ID?


----------



## buddhawood

Spruceman said:


> When they call, what shows up on the Caller ID?


It didn't for me, it just showed Toll free call 866-...-....


----------



## buddhawood

DoyleS said:


> Buddawood,
> What time of day did you call them back? Someone had mentioned that the audit guys were only there from 9-5.
> Seems to me you would be off the list for quite awhile. Another 20 minute call would be pretty close to harrassment. If they are only calling 10% of the people, it looks like they are focussing on the higher probability customers that have 4 or 5 receivers.
> 
> ..Doyle


I called back around 3:00pm the message they left stated that you could call as late as 10:00pm mountain time


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Just found this thread and haven't had a chance to read thru all of it, but do you think this is something D* will start doing? What if you don't have a phone line or what about those who are in RV's? 

I could see them cutting the ones off that are not hooked up to the phone line, but to cut them all off and cancell the account is poor business tactics.


----------



## Jacob S

How can DirecTv check receiver location without a location id if you have no landline phone connected to it?


----------



## Billcrates

I am a newbie to the forums. I returned to E* 3 months ago ( I was a customer three years ago.) They have supported my return with a mixed bag of customer service. I was out for 3 years and went back for various reasons. How ever I could not get the " specials" as an E* CSR told me that I still subscribed to Skyangel and was considered a current subscriber. I had to go to [email protected] for a DVR. The installation of a superdish was great. I live in the New Orleans area and the dish did not move during Hurricanes Katrina or Rita. I have TV now when others still do not  . I put wireless telephone lines on all the receivers - due to this thread. I would not have gotten E* if I knew that they were doing this. It is bad business practices to audit your customers You should never cast dispersion on the honesty of your customers. I have never had a service that would audit me for something I PAY FOR. Additionally, it is an unacceptable business practice to renege on written agreements such as RV waivers and ECM the receivers as they no longer do view the agreement as valid. They should contact the customer in advance and tell them this agreementis not valid. 
It is my feeling that it is DISH's responsibility to stop account stacking by technology or by other means - not by calling their customers and AUDITING them unannounced. I have not been audited and should not be as I spent 50 dollars on 2 wireless phone jacks and ran 35 feet of wire for 2 other receivers.


----------



## Dang The Hung

Well, there seemed to be a bit of light at the end of the tunnel in my situation. After a month long fight with these bozos, They called me over the weekend asking if I was still interested having Dish and that they would be happy to have me back. I wasn't able to get all my receivers turned on, but I did reach a compromise with the dispute resolution specialist to where I could use some of my receivers on the T.V.s I watch the most. I was also given a programming credit. And best of all I was also told that if I call back to make changes to my account I won't have to deal with the gestapo audit team. I was suprised to even get a call back from them as they have been ignoring me most of the time.

This still doesn't rule out that I may still switch to D* depending on the outcome of the MPEG4 rollout and what HD channels they will offer. I had some very less than sincere words about the customer harrassment team that I shared with them, especially the supervisor named Mickey they got working over there. Overall I am somewhat satisfied, but in the back of my mind I am wondering when, not if, when the customer harrassment will start again. For anyone else in this similar situation, there is hope. But it will be a fight and you will have to contact someone at the corporate level to get anything started. Don't waste your time by sending email to [email protected] that address is nothing more than a customer service lackey and won't even get you any help. Go straight for the top.


----------



## Marioski

So how long does it take to get your stuff turned back on after you speak with the audit department. It's been about 2hrs and I have nothing still.

Little background... Three receivers and not one of them plug in into a phone line. One receiver is old and my original one, in the basement and doesn't work. Been too lazy to call and take the $5 charge off my account. I advised the guy on the phone that the house as three receiver's one of which is non working. I went thru the testing on two receiver's, ca id, location id and boot sequence. The third receiver he verified that it was powered off and stated he will permenatly lock it out. Fine. He said I passed and I should have my programming back within 5-10 minutes and my local's in about 30 minutes. I've been without programming for 3 days now since the message was left around 2pm and my service the same day and before I got home from work and had a chance to call them back. I'm waiting patiently here by my tv but all I see is red boxes still almost 2 hours later!

Mario


----------



## Marioski

Well it's morning, 13hrs after I call them. I still have none of my service turned back on. 

This is getting ridiculous and I'm half tempted to cancel Dishnetwork. As a customer I should not be treated as a suspected criminal. I understand their concern on theft, but the way it is being conducted is not to their benefit. As a matter of fact, this may just give me a reason to get out of Dishnetwork as their HD programming is terrible with no local channels HD channels. Comcast in my area is offering a better package with local HD for a much lower rate and can be installed by this weekend. They are willing to take my business away from Dishnetwork.


----------



## nightrider

that is bs , i would call dish network and cancel them ,, who needs that headache ,, go with dtv they seem to be the best ,,


----------



## DoyleS

This may sound sick, but it would be interesting to post the Audit Team callback number or numbers and then a large number of subscribers could call in all ready to go through the audit. Of course everything would be in order. Hopefully noted as a passed audit for future reference. As I said, kind of a sick thought.

..Doyle


----------



## Marioski

Just got off the phone with them. I figured that since I have already been audited and supposdly have past I do not have to be home when I call. I called them from work on my lunch break and of course the regular CSR is locked out and has to transfer me over to the Audit unit. I tell the person in the Audit Dept that I did the test the night before and my programming is still not work. His response "You need to be in front of your tv, sorry I can't help you". He even acknowledged that last nights call was successfull. However he still insisted that I need to be at home, calling from my home phone and in front of the TV. I finally am fed up with this. I told him to cancel my account and well he disconnected and hung up the phone. As far as I'm concerned, 3 days with no service going on the 4th day my account was cancelled earlier this week.


----------



## Jacob S

What about those that are in a contract with Dish Network? Are they going to charge you the penalty if they shut you off like this?


----------



## Marioski

nightrider said:


> that is bs , i would call dish network and cancel them ,, who needs that headache ,, go with dtv they seem to be the best ,,


The problem is that Dish Network has some excellent International Programming and I subscribe to their Polish package. DTV does not offer that, so I'm sort of stuck and I'm getting the shaft from a company that I've been with since 1996. If this keeps up and my problem isn't solved I'm willing to let go of the International Programming and go to a company that treats their customers with respect and provides me with service.


----------



## Darkman

Some polish channels / packages are also at IA5 (Globecast) .. and on Canadian provider - Bell ExpressVU .. including TV Polonia..

Globecast has quite a few Polish ones actually...
ExpressVU has less.. - i think TV Polonia only ..and a couple of Polish radios (1 and 3) .. 
Globecast has Polonia 3, and few others, that ExpressVU doesn't have...


----------



## Spruceman

I understand that Echostar is going to acquire Walmart, Sears, and Macys and require everyone leaving their stores to undergo (1) a full strip and body cavity search and (2) random searches of any real estate and motor vehicles to look for stolen merchandise with seizure of any "stolen" property in your possession. And if you don't have a receipt -- even if it's 20 years old -- is presumption of theft.


----------



## Marioski

Darkman said:


> Some polish channels / packages are also at IA5 (Globecast) .. and on Canadian provider - Bell ExpressVU .. including TV Polonia..
> 
> Globecast has quite a few Polish ones actually...
> ExpressVU has less.. - i think TV Polonia only ..and a couple of Polish radios (1 and 3) ..
> Globecast has Polonia 3, and few others, that ExpressVU doesn't have...


Thanks Darkman. I will definitely take a look into that.

on edit... Just took a look at Globecast. Defenitely an alternative but with a price tag to get into it with the equipment and installer fee's. Not to mention, it's strictly world tv, no local or basic "cable" channels. That's where Dishnetwork has it's little niche in the American market. I couldn't find anything on ExpressVU although it seems like they service just the Canadian market.


----------



## Marioski

Still no success with getting my signal restored. Just got off the phone with the audit department again. No dice. The guy on the other end verified that both receivers are turned on but yet I'm still somehow not able to view any channels. Had me run a check switch test, both receivers came back just fine. I don't get it.. The only channels I can watch are 100 and 101. This is getting annoying, especially since ER is on tonight.


Update. 5:35pm. One receiver is working, my oldest model, model 1000. It went thru the check switch process and all the channels came back. My model 301 in the rec room is still out of commission. Going to give it a bit more time, run another check switch and see what happens.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

DoyleS said:


> This may sound sick, but it would be interesting to post the Audit Team callback number or numbers and then a large number of subscribers could call in all ready to go through the audit. Of course everything would be in order. Hopefully noted as a passed audit for future reference. As I said, kind of a sick thought.
> 
> ..Doyle


Better yet you should all cancel at the same time. That would get their attention.


----------



## stone phillips

1-888-371-9077 audit team main line #


----------



## SimpleSimon

> The third receiver he verified that it was powered off


They have NO POSSIBLE WAY of knowing whether a receiver is powered off.


----------



## James Long

SimpleSimon said:


> The third receiver he verified that it was powered off
> 
> 
> 
> They have NO POSSIBLE WAY of knowing whether a receiver is powered off.
Click to expand...

The CSR verified with the customer that the receiver was powered off.

JL


----------



## HD921

I returned call to the audit team last night, these guys must be FBI flunk outs the one I spoke to was rude and very nasty. He said they had called and left message on my phone, well I don't check my messages that often I use the caller ID if someone I recognize calls I check my message's. Too make a long story short they basically shut most of my channels down on all receivers I had hooked (3) I have one that is authorized but, just have it in case one of the others go out, I was informed that all receivers must be hooked up in order to do the test and keep the receivers not hooked up from being permanently deactivated. My question is this, can I hook just one cable to the 921 and 721 receivers for the test? if not I will have my 721 permanently disabled. He also said the federal government required them to audit customers who's receivers were not connected to the phone line, none of mine are, and haven't been since I,ve had dish, about 8 years. has anyone ever gotten that line before?


----------



## jsanders

A federal law, eh? That is funny!

The next time one of you guys decides to call the audit team, would you mind recording the call for us? Just make sure you tell them that the call is being recorded, to keep things legal. I'd love to actually hear one of those calls! :lol:


----------



## HD921

Thanks, Can you answer this question? Can I hook just one cable to the 921 and 721 receivers for the test? if not I will have my 721 permanently disabled.


----------



## ehren

I have Cell phone only, Dish is gonna make all receivers hooked up to a phone line now? They try this **** with me I am packing and they can refund my NHL Center Ice as well.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

ehren said:


> I have Cell phone only, Dish is gonna make all receivers hooked up to a phone line now? They try this **** with me I am packing and they can refund my NHL Center Ice as well.


While I agree with you on principal and I don't have mine connected to phone lines either... technically this has always been a requirement as far back as I have read the contract agreed to when I signed up.

That they appear to be enforcing it more now doesn't mean it wasn't always true... and I keep pushing my luck I suppose until they call me.


----------



## DoyleS

I went back through the thread looking at the comments from those that were audited. Of the 9 people where I could extract receiver information from their posts, 5 had 5 physical receivers of which some were dual tuners. They typically had 2 or 3 of those receivers connected to phone lines. One person with 4 receivers of which 2 were duals, and two with 3 receivers where 2 were duals. As we would expect, it seems the targets are accounts with 5 or more equivalent receivers where less than 100% are connected to phone lines. There seems to be no evidence of auditing an account with say 3 receiver equivalents and 2 connected. One person with 4 receivers that were connected was audited and the audit team called that an error. Audits appear to occur only on weekdays and callback times are before 9PM central time. 

..Doyle


----------



## BobMurdoch

I fit the profile you set up and got audited. A 921 and 510 connected to a phone line, 2 508s NOT hooked up to lines, and a 4900 that also wasn't hooked up.

Add in the fact that they called me while I was 3000 miles away on a business trip and ZAP! All receivers except the 921 taken offline. Got it fixed the next week when I got back and read off the system info screens to the audit team guy. Receivers back up and running minutes later....


----------



## DoyleS

Although irritating, I can understand them taking receivers down that are not connected to phone lines but why would they take down the 510 that is also connected to a phone line. Seems they ought to know which ones are on lines and which are not. 

..Doyle


----------



## Marioski

James Long said:


> The CSR verified with the customer that the receiver was powered off.
> 
> JL


Sorry I've been away for a few days. Yes, according to the guy on the phone he was able to verify if the receiver was powered on or not. I can't tell you if he was bs'ing me or not or maybe if he was just able to verify if it was recently powered on or not. I didn't feel like questioning him or his authority about it and end up with three dead receivers. But I was left with the impression that he can see it's status live, as he stated that he can see "two receivers powered on and one not powerd" and that was the one he was going to turn off.

I'm wondering now if I will be receiving a credit for the days that I have lost programming from DishNetwork.


----------



## LtMunst

Marioski said:


> Sorry I've been away for a few days. Yes, according to the guy on the phone he was able to verify if the receiver was powered on or not. I can't tell you if he was bs'ing me or not or maybe if he was just able to verify if it was recently powered on or not. I didn't feel like questioning him or his authority about it and end up with three dead receivers. But I was left with the impression that he can see it's status live, as he stated that he can see "two receivers powered on and one not powerd" and that was the one he was going to turn off.
> 
> I'm wondering now if I will be receiving a credit for the days that I have lost programming from DishNetwork.


The only possible way they could tell if a receiver is powered on would be if they could send a signal to your receiver # forcing it to do a dial in.


----------



## Marioski

DoyleS said:


> I went back through the thread looking at the comments from those that were audited. Of the 9 people where I could extract receiver information from their posts, 5 had 5 physical receivers of which some were dual tuners. They typically had 2 or 3 of those receivers connected to phone lines. One person with 4 receivers of which 2 were duals, and two with 3 receivers where 2 were duals. As we would expect, it seems the targets are accounts with 5 or more equivalent receivers where less than 100% are connected to phone lines. There seems to be no evidence of auditing an account with say 3 receiver equivalents and 2 connected. One person with 4 receivers that were connected was audited and the audit team called that an error. Audits appear to occur only on weekdays and callback times are before 9PM central time.
> 
> ..Doyle


Not true. I was auditied, 3 receivers / two were connected for some time and for the past three to four years it was just one that was conencted.


----------



## BobaBird

I have only 2 active receivers (neither hooked up though 1 now is) and got the call a few days ago. The call went smoothly, the auditor was calm and polite. The one part that did rub me the wrong way a bit was being told "You are violating the Residential Customer Agreement" which would have come across better as "the terms of the RCA require you to have all of your receivers connected to a phone line."


----------



## Stewart Vernon

BobaBird said:


> I have only 2 active receivers (neither hooked up though 1 now is) and got the call a few days ago. The call went smoothly, the auditor was calm and polite. The one part that did rub me the wrong way a bit was being told "You are violating the Residential Customer Agreement" which would have come across better as "the terms of the RCA require you to have all of your receivers connected to a phone line."


It's interesting... On the one hand, it is part of all the agreements to have a phone line connected at all times. I don't do it, but it is part of the agreement. The installer (professional approved installer) who came to setup my house not only didn't connect to phone lines but told me it wasn't necessary unless I ordered pay-per-view... so unless/until they call me I will leave things the way I have it and deal with it when it comes to pass.

HOWEVER... they have those dual-tuner DVRs and they say "there is a $4.98 second tuner fee unless you connect the receiver to a phone line"... which tends to imply that for those receivers you don't have to connect to a phone line as long as you are willing to pay the second tuner fee.

So... I wonder, if the auditors were challenged on the nebulous requirement of a phone line for some receivers vs receivers where you are clearly given an option to pay a $4.98 fee to not have it connected... what would be the response?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

HDMe said:


> It's interesting... On the one hand, it is part of all the agreements to have a phone line connected at all times. I don't do it, but it is part of the agreement. The installer (professional approved installer) who came to setup my house not only didn't connect to phone lines but told me it wasn't necessary unless I ordered pay-per-view... so unless/until they call me I will leave things the way I have it and deal with it when it comes to pass.
> 
> HOWEVER... they have those dual-tuner DVRs and they say "there is a $4.98 second tuner fee unless you connect the receiver to a phone line"... which tends to imply that for those receivers you don't have to connect to a phone line as long as you are willing to pay the second tuner fee.
> 
> So... I wonder, if the auditors were challenged on the nebulous requirement of a phone line for some receivers vs receivers where you are clearly given an option to pay a $4.98 fee to not have it connected... what would be the response?


Yes interesting because my friend has one receiver, the 625 dual tuner DVR, has no phone line and pays the 4.99 fee to not have it connected. I guess this only works if you have 1 receiver on the account? But 2 or more you are required to have a phone line and every receiver connect to it? So is E* going to pay for your phone bill?


----------



## DoyleS

Marioski,

Just curious, are any of your receivers dual tuners. When I went through the various comments in the thread, it seemed that the total number of tuners was the most significant item. If the number of tuners was 5 and there were any unconnected then the probability of an audit seemed higher. 

..Doyle


----------



## gregmisc

I just finished reading all 36 pages of this post (WOW) and didn't find an answer to my problem.

I have a 921 and 508 that I can get to but there is a 301 upstairs that I can't reach due to disability. Only the 921 is connected to the phone line so it sounds like I'm a good candidate for an audit. 

When I get the call, how do I prevent Dish from disconnecting my full service since I will not be able to read the 301 info?

There is not a phone line upstairs. When I bought my 921 I was told the 921 must be hooked to a phone line and I purchased a Radio Shack wireless connection for it to work. I was also told by the Dish rep (like many others) the phone line requirement was only for PPV and bill pay and I could use my 301 upstairs w/o a phone connection. I bought another wireless connection (these are expensive) for the 301 but it didn't work upstairs and took it back.

I want to keep the 301 upstairs for family and friends that come to stay overnight and longer sometimes. I don't charge any rent for them to stay.

Is cable the only answer? There's only one company and I left them for Dish because of poore service and outages. I don't get OTA signals here in the mountains.

I really don't want to spend any more money; I'm on a fixed income. I am not a criminal or liar; these boxes are in my home. No RV, no vacation home, not a trucker, no renters, not used for business; the boxes are here.

Can anyone tell me how to handle the audit?? Sounds like they will cut off the 508 and 301 when they do the audit if I can't read the 301 info. This is all very upsetting to me and I feel helpless to prevent it.


----------



## CCarncross

My take is dont worry about it unless they call. If you explain your situation and you cant get a friend or neighbor to help out, talk to a supervisor and escalate from there. But there is no need to worry about it until they call, which they may never do. You only have 3 receivers, so you're probably pretty low in the radar


----------



## DoyleS

I would agree. Of the people on the forum, only about 8% have been audited. Even if you did get audited, you could always explain your situation and have the call rescheduled for a time when someone else was there to aid in the test. I wouldn't worry about it. 

..Doyle


----------



## jbrettz

I received a call from Dish on my answering machine, telling me to call a 800 # but it was not the normal Dish 800 number. I tried one night to call, was put on hold for 25 minutes and finally I hung up. 4 days later my Dish service was cut off!!! 

I called Dish, upset of course, and was given this "other" Dish number. which I believe is an outside company hired by Dish to do their "Audit"

The lady was quite rude. She told me that I had to have all of my recivers hooked up and had to give go to each receiver and give her certain info for each receiver. I could not put her on hold or put the phone down-if I did she would hang up on me and my service would be suspended until I was able to give her all of the recievers at one time. I have 5 receivers hooked up in my house, upstairs, downstairs and in the basement, so I told her there would be down time as I walked to each receiver. She told me that I would have to keep talking to her as I walker around to make sure I was not trying to hook up or unhook any receivers. I put the phone down to get a glass of water, 25 seconds worth and she was quite upset that I put her on hold for that 25 seconds, she questioned me repeatedly why I put the phone down and what was I really doing during that 25 seconds. She was quite rude, I asked her what did she think I could do in that 25 seconds?? She put me on hold, and asked a supervisor if she shoud suspend my account since I had put her on hold, and could have down something ?? By that time I was ready to hang up on her, I felt like Iwas being questioned by the police for some criminal act. 

Very unpleasant experience. This woman was very anal, and did not trust anyone. You were guilty and until she could prove otherwise. 

I had to go to each receiver and do a check switch and read off the location ID and receiver #. This whole process for my 5 receivers took about 30 minutes, including the 5 minutes of her acccusing me of doing something dishonest for 25 seconds.

If I did not have invested in 5 receivers, I was ready at that point to cancel Dish. I have been a customer since 1996, so much for customer loyalty. She did not care if I cancelled-that's when I figured out this "Audit " team was a outside 3rd party.

I hope everyone else has a more pleasant experience.

Brett


----------



## DoyleS

Brett, I think I would recommend sending a letter to [email protected] with a formal complaint. I would ask some of the specific questions that you have raised. Who was the person that called? Was she a Dish employee or an outside contractor? Many of her demands are completely unreasonable. Everyone does not have a cordless phone to walk around with. 
I think if I got the call, I would immediately ask for the persons name and if they were a Dish employee or a contractor.

I assume by your post that you passed the audit.

..Doyle


----------



## LtMunst

I wonder if the Audit Team Members receive any kind of financial incentive (Bounty) for each account they shut down.


----------



## gregmisc

CCarncross said:


> My take is dont worry about it unless they call. If you explain your situation and you cant get a friend or neighbor to help out, talk to a supervisor and escalate from there. But there is no need to worry about it until they call, which they may never do. You only have 3 receivers, so you're probably pretty low in the radar


By the sound of these posts it doesn't seem likely they will wait for anyone to come help me. It would take at least 5 min for my nearest neighbor to get here. It would defeat the purpose of the audit. If they call while someone else is here I won't have a problem.

My son-in-law came up with an idea (hard to believe..just kidding). Next time he comes over he can move the 301 next to my 921 and use a phone cord splitter(?) to connect both receivers to the same phone jack. When anyone comes to visit they can move the 301 upstairs untill they leave.

I need to know how to connect both receivers to the same satelite connection from the wall so I can pass the audit. Is that possible or do I need MORE equipment?


----------



## BobMurdoch

I passed the audit by walking to all of the receivers and reading off the receiver and smart IDs as well as the location IDs to the CSR. 

Since they are all under the same roof it was easy to convince him I was legit......

I still only have 2 out of 5 plugged in, the other 3 are inaccessible to a phone line.....


----------



## kb7oeb

So what do you do if you only have a corded phone?


----------



## James Long

Set the handset down and pick up an extension in another room.

What do you do if you have receivers that cannot be seen from a phone?
Explain and set down the phone to go to the other room and back.

JL


----------



## AllieVi

BobMurdoch - I think you must have missed gregmisc's statement that he's disabled.

gregmisc - What you need is a setup that will allow you to control and view the 301 output from downstairs. It's possible and not too expensive.

An infrared repeater system would allow you to control the upstairs 301 from downstairs. A cable or wireless connection from the upstairs receiver can then be brought to a downstairs TV. You're then in a position to both control and view the 301 from downstairs. Depending on your situation, you may need a simple A/B switch at the downstairs TV to select the 301's output.

If a cable already exists, all you'd need is the infrared repeater. X-10 sells a wireless transmitter/receiver for about $50 if you want a wireless connection. I have several and they work well enough for your purposes if you don't want to install a cable.

here's a link to the X-10 item:

http://www.x10.com/products/vk54a_sp_lr_ps69.html


----------



## peano

What a shame Dish is making their loyal customers worry about getting the dreaded call. 

gregmisc, I would not spend one penny on equipment to try to be ready for the Audit Nazis. If you can get Dish, you can get DirecTv and they don't audit receiver locations. If Dish calls and doesn't understand your situation, tell them to shove their service up their you know what.

Dish seems proud to be losing customers outright and losing the $4.99 mirror fee from others because they think everybody is a crook. Its a strange policy for a company to be happy with losing mirror revenue and long time customers in order to catch the odd account sharer.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

gregmisc said:


> By the sound of these posts it doesn't seem likely they will wait for anyone to come help me. It would take at least 5 min for my nearest neighbor to get here. It would defeat the purpose of the audit. If they call while someone else is here I won't have a problem.
> 
> My son-in-law came up with an idea (hard to believe..just kidding). Next time he comes over he can move the 301 next to my 921 and use a phone cord splitter(?) to connect both receivers to the same phone jack. When anyone comes to visit they can move the 301 upstairs untill they leave.
> 
> I need to know how to connect both receivers to the same satelite connection from the wall so I can pass the audit. Is that possible or do I need MORE equipment?


 Dude get a wireless phone jack modem.

You can get one on the dishnetwork website and it will enable you to have a phone connection where ever you have a electric jack. I use one that Dish sold me on my main 942 in the living room and have a phone cord run to my master bedroom 942. Works great and you don't have to worry about splitting any satellite connections, which wouldn't work anyway. You can also get one at Radio Shack and Walmart. Or call Dish and request one and charge it and they will send you one.

No more audits in your future once you have all your receivers plugged into a phone line.


----------



## jp9

Mike D-CO5 said:


> No more audits in your future once you have all your receivers plugged into a phone line.


OK, this is almost a true statement.

If one of those receivers happens to be a 921 with L270 and it is hung while they are wanting it to phone home, you are going to get audited anyway.


----------



## gregmisc

gregmisc said:


> "There is not a phone line upstairs. When I bought my 921 I was told the 921 must be hooked to a phone line and I purchased a Radio Shack wireless connection for it to work. I was also told by the Dish rep (like many others) the phone line requirement was only for PPV and bill pay and I could use my 301 upstairs w/o a phone connection. I bought another wireless connection (these are expensive) for the 301 but it didn't work upstairs and took it back."
> 
> Mike D-CO5
> Thanks, I tried the wireless device (see above) and it did not work.
> 
> You said I can't split the sat signal to connect both? Any other options? What would happen during the audit if I get the info from the 921 then disconnect the 921 and connect the 301 to get the 301 info? Will it work?


----------



## Mike D-CO5

The only way I know of that you can use a single satellite line and split it is with a dish pro plus twin and a seperator . But that only works when you use a dual tuner dishdvr receiver like a 522/625/942 or 721. NOw you could split the phone line with a triple connector and split that line to two different sat receivers and your phone too. Then you wouldn't get audited anymore.


----------



## BobaBird

Mike D-CO5 said:


> NOw you could split the phone line with a triple connector and split that line to two different sat receivers and your phone too.


Most of the ones I've seen are actually "Line 1, Line 2, Line 1+2." Check the product description to make sure you are getting a 3-way splitter. Of course, like Dish's future DishCOMM solution, this does nothing to help those without POTS.

Receivers with the DishCOMM feature will be able to report across house electrical wiring to a "main" receiver which is connected to a phone line.

DISH... bringing you the technology of tomorrow... the day after.


----------



## unr1

i got audited....but i have to call them back. they disabled 2 of my recievers (leaving the main reciever on)

I have to call them next week though...because *cough*


hopefully they don't mind a weeks wait


----------



## jp9

unr1 said:


> i got audited....but i have to call them back. they disabled 2 of my recievers (leaving the main reciever on)
> 
> I have to call them next week though...because *cough*
> 
> hopefully they don't mind a weeks wait


Because what ?

Are you saying you are actually account sharing ?


----------



## Jacob S

They may have it shut off before you call back in because they probably will not wait a week.


----------



## CCarncross

I don't understand how people are getting mad about being audited when some are actually people who are breaking the law that are account stacking. Looks like the audit is getting done exactly what it needs to get done...


----------



## Stewart Vernon

CCarncross said:


> I don't understand how people are getting mad about being audited when some are actually people who are breaking the law that are account stacking. Looks like the audit is getting done exactly what it needs to get done...


That's what I keep thinking... I used to know people who bragged about pirating their satellite (they were DirecTV subscribers, not that it makes a difference)... and I kept thinking that my Dish bill is a small price to pay for the entertainment I get out of it and what a waste and a risk it was to consider stealing that... not to mention the illegality and morality of it.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

CCarncross said:


> I don't understand how people are getting mad about being audited when some are actually people who are breaking the law that are account stacking. Looks like the audit is getting done exactly what it needs to get done...


I agree with you, but what about those who don't want or can't afford a phone line?


----------



## AllieVi

theratpatrol said:


> I agree with you, but what about those who don't want or can't afford a phone line?


If someone really doesn't want/cant' afford a phone, they're self-limited to one receiver. No audit calls are made when only one receiver is on an account, so the problem goes away.


----------



## nightrider

again i keep saying this ,, why isn;t dish network going after all the people who is stealing there service threw free to air , fta is huge , ppv ,porn , sports packages , i just don;t think dish is in the same class as dtv , dtv should be doing the auditing, there card is safe , dish better wath out or they will be more than 5 million subscribers behind ,


----------



## Billcrates

I realize that there are people who steal products . Those who do such activities should be prosecuted and service be turned off :nono2: . However, it does not give a company license to treat people rudely, shut off service when people do nothing wrong or give the apperance to a paying customer they are doing something illegal. Telling some that they are violating a contract (notated in the small print) is a two way issue. If Dish wants to tell people that phone lines are required by contract, start from installation. When the installers coming - make it a requirement and part of the setup process. Include the wireless phone jacks a part of installation. Dish is not creating a program to eliminate account stacking from start to end. They are being extremely reactive and not proactive. Having rude auditors calling up paying customers is not a good business plan. These may handicapped, elderly or not understanding why DISH would call them up. Not good press and it a topic on a couple of DBS sites. This one is with over 12000 hits . Not something potiential customers would like to see. Here is the message if I were a potiential subscriber- DISH puts in your system WITH OUT PHONELINES and then 6 months later you have rude DISH auditors call you up and say your a crook for not having them . This is Amazing :eek2:


----------



## zmark

CCarncross said:


> I don't understand how people are getting mad about being audited when some are actually people who are breaking the law that are account stacking. Looks like the audit is getting done exactly what it needs to get done...


I think people are companing more about how the audit is being done that about the audit itself. From the reports in this thread, the audit team is very hostile to the customers they audit. They are called out of the blue, presumed to be guilty, and given one and only one chance to prove their compliance. The tiniest mistake will result is deactivation of their receivers.

Also, there are many customers who were told either by Dish or by the installer that a phone line was not a requirement. These people have a very legitimate complaint given they could be out the $1000+ in receivers should they be audited. Fine print in the contract doesn't count; Dish network should never had allowed installers to install w/o a phone connection.

Finally CCarncross, let me ask you a question: Do you enjoy being a child molester? I'm sure you could convince me you're not, but I don't think you'd appreciate the accusation any more so than those falsely accused of stealing service. But seriously, are you?


----------



## Bill R

zmark said:


> Finally CCarncross, let me ask you a question: Do you enjoy being a child molester? I'm sure you could convince me you're not, but I don't think you'd appreciate the accusation any more so than those falsely accused of stealing service. But seriously, are you?


While you may have proved your point (not all people that fail the audit are crooks) you used *extremely* poor judgement in the way that you done it (your post to CCarncross). You really own him an apology.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I liken this to those police driver's license checkpoints.

I have never drank in my life... and yet I've been a car out on the road stopped at several of those checkpoints during my lifetime.

They always ask for your license... they look at you like you are doing something wrong by being on the road... and they always ask "where are you going".

I always answer politely, but I always think... what business of theirs is it where I'm going or where I'm from? If they don't have reason to suspect me why are they treating me (and others) like that?

But they do... and they keep doing it... and sometimes they catch DUI or expired license drivers during the checks... but they always end up delaying and needlessly inconveniencing way more honest and legal citizens.

Same can be said for airport security and metal detectors... most people aren't trying to hijack the planes, but they don't know and people won't carry "I'm coming to get you" signs... so they have little choice but to check everyone.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

zmark said:


> I think people are companing more about how the audit is being done that about the audit itself. From the reports in this thread, the audit team is very hostile to the customers they audit. They are called out of the blue, presumed to be guilty, and given one and only one chance to prove their compliance. The tiniest mistake will result is deactivation of their receivers.
> 
> Also, there are many customers who were told either by Dish or by the installer that a phone line was not a requirement. These people have a very legitimate complaint given they could be out the $1000+ in receivers should they be audited. Fine print in the contract doesn't count; Dish network should never had allowed installers to install w/o a phone connection.


There hasn't been *that* many complaints actually, even in this long thread. This board is only a small sampling of Dish customers in the first place. But I digress.

The fine print most certainly does count. Everyone is supposed to read the entire contract before agreeing to anything. If you don't read it, then you lose the right to be surprised later. A bad or incomplete install does not invalidate a contract. Lots of people self-install, for instance.

The contract doesn't say "you must connect a phone line unless the installer says you don't have to".

Always read contracts.


----------



## Billcrates

HDMe said:


> I liken this to those police driver's license checkpoints.
> 
> I have never drank in my life... and yet I've been a car out on the road stopped at several of those checkpoints during my lifetime.
> 
> They always ask for your license... they look at you like you are doing something wrong by being on the road... and they always ask "where are you going".
> 
> I always answer politely, but I always think... what business of theirs is it where I'm going or where I'm from? If they don't have reason to suspect me why are they treating me (and others) like that?
> 
> But they do... and they keep doing it... and sometimes they catch DUI or expired license drivers during the checks... but they always end up delaying and needlessly inconveniencing way more honest and legal citizens.
> 
> Same can be said for airport security and metal detectors... most people aren't trying to hijack the planes, but they don't know and people won't carry "I'm coming to get you" signs... so they have little choice but to check everyone.


 The police and Health Dept audits are done under a point of law passed by the legislature and are legally binding - you can not equate the two. DISH and I entered a contract that they give me a service and I pay for it. They installed the service and I do not account stack . If I am audited by them - they are auditing themselves. Telling me that I am violating the terms of service is wrong as they installed the product. :eek2: The using of terms of legally mandated checkpoints by civil authorities to a bunch of rude auditors on paying customers is a bit much. I resent the fact that I could answer the phone and DISH auditor could do the following ( as described in these posts ) :
1) Using headphones to amplify the conversation
2) Searches via the internet the county court house files to see what the size of my house and questions why I have 4 receivers in that small of house.
3) Asks me what I use 4 TV sets for - 
4) Questions my intergity on TOS - that they they products installed -except for the wireless jacks I put in to meet requirement of the contract.
5) Be rude to a paying customer that is honest and just wants to watch TV

Is a bit much - do you you think......


----------



## Billcrates

I called DISH tech support and was TOLD that you do not have to use phone lines - it was not a Term of Service. Why all the contractictions.....? When you get software - does every one read the fine print...? It binds you. Not everyone is a lawyer,,,


----------



## gregmisc

HDMe said:


> There hasn't been *that* many complaints actually, even in this long thread. This board is only a small sampling of Dish customers in the first place. But I digress.
> 
> The fine print most certainly does count. Everyone is supposed to read the entire contract before agreeing to anything. If you don't read it, then you lose the right to be surprised later. A bad or incomplete install does not invalidate a contract. Lots of people self-install, for instance.
> 
> The contract doesn't say "you must connect a phone line unless the installer says you don't have to".
> 
> Always read contracts.


I did read my Service Agreement and it does not say anything about a mandatory phone line connection.

It does list on the back under PROFESSIONAL STANDARD INSTALLATIONS INCLUDE: "Telephone line hook up within 25' of the receiver". It was not connected when installed.


----------



## nsafreak

gregmisc said:


> I did read my Service Agreement and it does not say anything about a mandatory phone line connection.
> 
> It does list on the back under PROFESSIONAL STANDARD INSTALLATIONS INCLUDE: "Telephone line hook up within 25' of the receiver". It was not connected when installed.


From Section 4 Part F of the Residential Service Agreement (you agreed to it when you had service installed):



> F. To optimize the operation of your Equipment, you must continuously connect each DISH Network receiver on your account to your same land-based telephone line. Failure to connect each receiver to your same land-based telephone line may result in interruption or disconnection of Services.


The full Dish Network Service agreement can be found here .


----------



## gregmisc

I scanned the signed service agreement and deleted only the filled in portion (personnal data). I think it is attached (first time trying this).

I don't see anything that says they can change it and don't remember signing or agreeing to any changes.


----------



## unr1

jp9 said:


> Because what ?
> 
> Are you saying you are actually account sharing ?


Are you accusing me?

You can't be serious. I'm sick, so that was a cough.
...people now a days. sigh.


----------



## nsafreak

gregmisc said:


> I scanned the signed service agreement and deleted only the filled in portion (personnal data). I think it is attached (first time trying this).
> 
> I don't see anything that says they can change it and don't remember signing or agreeing to any changes.


What you have there are the Service Agreement Terms not the Service Agreement itself. The Service Agreement can also be found in the instruction manual for any of your receivers.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Billcrates said:


> I called DISH tech support and was TOLD that you do not have to use phone lines - it was not a Term of Service. Why all the contractictions.....? When you get software - does every one read the fine print...? It binds you. Not everyone is a lawyer,,,


A CSR on the phone that tells you something that violates the terms of service you signed doesn't count. I have known people who work in law enforcement, but who in their off hours have actually driven after drinking a few alcoholic beverages... so, do I infer from that it is now legal to drive while drinking? Of course not.

The only person who could tell you something verbally that contradicts/overrides the written contract would be legal counsel, or authorized senior members of the company with which you have the contract.

The truth is that if you don't order PPV or interactive bill-paying features on Dish Home, you really don't have to connect the phone line in order for the receivers to work... however, this does not cancel the agreement to connect the phone line. Understanding that you are always operating just outside of the contract, means you are subject to a charge if they choose to add one OR an audit should they choose to call.

Now... having said all that... IF the audit callers are rude, then that's a different discussion... and as I said in an earlier post I find that police on license checkpoints are often rude when unwarranted and assuming you are guilty (when supposedly this country operates under innocent-until-proven-guilty)... so if our law enforcement operates that way, it doesn't surprise me that a company would!

But... the only way you have a real leg to stand on is if you are connected to a phone line and are called by the audit team who mistakenly thinks you aren't connected. In any other case, you are knowingly violating the agreement.

The "I didn't read the contract" excuse never works, and any adult should know better than to try that. Keep in mind that if the shoe were on the other foot, you would most assuredly be quoting fine print in the contract to Dish in order to prove they had done something wrong to you.


----------



## CCarncross

unr1 said:


> Are you accusing me?
> 
> You can't be serious. I'm sick, so that was a cough.
> ...people now a days. sigh.


If you dont like the responses, dont post that way...

If anyone but unr1 feels he is NOT implying he is account stacking, please post. I cant think of any other way to take your original post....


----------



## zmark

HDMe said:


> A CSR on the phone that tells you something that violates the terms of service you signed doesn't count. I have known people who work in law enforcement, but who in their off hours have actually driven after drinking a few alcoholic beverages... so, do I infer from that it is now legal to drive while drinking? Of course not.
> 
> The only person who could tell you something verbally that contradicts/overrides the written contract would be legal counsel, or authorized senior members of the company with which you have the contract.


I don't buy it. What you're ultimately saying is that it's legal for their sales representatives to lie about the terms of the contract. A contract requires a "meeting of the minds", and in this case there's a direct contradiction between what is written and what is said.

On the other hand, the contracts are so one sided anyway that it doesn't matter. I'm sure Echostar reserves the right to unilaterally change the conditions of the contract at any time. So it's all academic at this point.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

zmark said:


> I don't buy it. What you're ultimately saying is that it's legal for their sales representatives to lie about the terms of the contract. A contract requires a "meeting of the minds", and in this case there's a direct contradiction between what is written and what is said.


Sales representatives are seldom installers! 

But... keep in mind, that even if a CSR on the phone says "you do not have to connect a phone line"... that is only a partial truth.

Sure, you don't *have* to... but if you don't connect it, then you are subject to possible charges for dual-tuner receivers AND random audits by the audit team!

So... technically if the installer or CSR says you don't need to connect the phone line, it is partially true. You can either connect the phone line per the contract OR be willing to negotiate an audit or additional phone line charge for not having it connected.

You get a choice.


----------



## Billcrates

Hey, I do think that a company and the consumer has the right to hold each other to the letter of the contract. Audits can be part of the process. Part of my job is auditing for a major Fortune 20 company and for a state agency for distribution of RX drugs. Part of the "Quality program" is to have a process that explains requirements from start to finish, It starts with clear directions ( not just fine print - I can tell you from experience that few read it) on what is to be required. You have to enforce all parts of the process to ensure compliance. DISH in my opionion is not doing this: 
1) They do not start at the install process and inform the customer clearly that this is a requirement. My install by DISH did not say that. Equipment is supplied such as wireless jacks to get the customer in compliance. If some one self installs - part of the activation process should be testing the phone connection. If they can not use a phone line - either refuse service or put a surcharge on the account. 
2) Train your CSR's & tech support that it is a requirement. You should not have people saying different items - it makes confusion and the customer gets angry. 
3) Put it in a clear place for every one to see - not the 4th section of a contract that is hard to understand. 
4) Work with people to make compliance to the standard. Do not cut them off with no appeal. 
5) Be courteous with the customer and explain politely that it is a requirement. People remember the rudeness and will move on to another sevice. Remember the old saying that with 1 person that is offended - 10 more with hear of it and they will not purchase the products. For those who liken this to a police checkpoint .. a police officer that is rude or abusive to a citizen can be disciplined and fired. 

This is standard process in a Quality assessment process for requlatory compliance. DISH needs to take some lessons.


----------



## Billcrates

HDMe said:


> Sales representatives are seldom installers!
> 
> But... keep in mind, that even if a CSR on the phone says "you do not have to connect a phone line"... that is only a partial truth.
> 
> Sure, you don't *have* to... but if you don't connect it, then you are subject to possible charges for dual-tuner receivers AND random audits by the audit team!
> 
> So... technically if the installer or CSR says you don't need to connect the phone line, it is partially true. You can either connect the phone line per the contract OR be willing to negotiate an audit or additional phone line charge for not having it connected.
> 
> You get a choice.


BTW - the contract is usually not signed until the installation is done. I COULD argue that the contract was invalid as it was not setup correctly by agents of the seller ACCORDING to the terms of the contract.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Billcrates said:


> BTW - the contract is usually not signed until the installation is done. I COULD argue that the contract was invalid as it was not setup correctly by agents of the seller ACCORDING to the terms of the contract.


The problem there being, their lawyers would argue that either you signed the contract and then disconnected the phone line yourself OR you shouldn't have signed the contract without verifying that the installer did everything per the contract. Not saying this is fair (neither is life)... but if you are asked to sign a contract that says the installer was done, then you don't sign it until he is done.

As an example... Long ago I bought a pool table. The delivery/assembly folks came to install my pool table, and upon getting halfway done they realized they did not have all the required parts shipped to them! So they called, and were told that some parts mistakenly had not shipped, that they would come in a couple of days... and the installers installed everything they could install at that point.

As they were about to leave, promising they would be back in a couple of days to finish... they asked me to sign the form that said my table had been accepted, received, and installed. I told them I couldn't sign it until they were finished UNLESS I wrote plainly upon the contract that they had not finished and I was only signing to indicate they had started and they had to initial where I wrote in the part about them not finishing and being obligated to come back.

Good thing I did that too... because it was actually over a week before they came back, and only after I complained several times... and come to find out they are required to turn in copies of their signed contracts to the Brunswick company and those people weren't happy to find that the installers had left a partially installed table and only got a qualified signature from me... so eventually they finished the install and gave me some free stuff to appease the problems they caused by being late with the parts.

The moral... reading contracts before you sign them is a good thing. Had I signed without reading... no doubt I would have had a hard time getting those guys out again to finish my table assembly!


----------



## Dang The Hung

CCarncross said:


> If you dont like the responses, dont post that way...
> 
> If anyone but unr1 feels he is NOT implying he is account stacking, please post. I cant think of any other way to take your original post....


You know what they say... If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all.

If you came up to me on the street and started talking to me like you did to unr1, I would have slapped your damn face off and sat back and laugh while you picked your sorry ass up off the ground.

Seriously, there are enough rude people in this world and Di$h picked the creame of the crop when they put the gestapo audit team together. This board doesn't need any of those types in here.


----------



## Jacob S

I know that if a lot of people knew this while considering to get a Dish Network satellite system that they probably would not take the service. I wonder how many customers they have lost over this already. A lot of people have already shut their system off because of the rudeness of the CSR's not dealing with an audit team. This would put it over the top and many would tell them that they dont have time for this bull and to just shut it off as they will just go back to cable or to DirecTv.

Does DirecTv contact customers like this with an audit team? Or do they just make sure that the phone lines are connected and shut them off if they are not all connected?


----------



## Brian

My parents, who may have been with Dish network since their inception, were just audited and are experiencing first hand some very rude CSR's via the Audit Team. They utilize their RV and have experienced some rules, that I had never heard of, but . . .

One email to [email protected] and their lack of support issue was resolved...quickly no less....


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Well the audit team strikes again!!!

After my move back in July, which was when they called the first time, some of my a/v distribution equipment for the new house had been on back order. Due to this we only had our 2 921 receivers hooked up. The parts finally came in and they were installed yesterday. I hooked up the 2 508 receivers and all 4 receivers were plugged into the phone line. I went around and made sure every receiver could call in and had downloaded & installed the latest software. Well 1 of the 921s did so 100% correctly while the other 921 verified the phoneline but would get stuck in a loop when it tried to dial in. One of the 508s also did so 100% correctly but the other instantly came back with "phoneline connection error...no dial tone" so I checked the jack with a corded phone. It did have a dial tone so there had to be something wrong with the receiver's modem. But the programming on both of the 508s was locked up. I called into Dish and was NOT transferred to the Audit Team but to a regular CSR. He tried to look at my account but it was locked and only the audit team could access it so I was transferred over to them. Suprisingly an actual person answered after only 2 rings!!! Well I explained what I needed to do and he told me that my account is locked and I cannot activate any additional receivers unless ALL of them are on a phoneline. I explained to him that it looks like one of the 508s had a bad modem and he gave me 2 options: 1) Activate the other but then the "broken" 508 would NEVER be allowed to be activated or 2) Buy a new receiver to replace the "broken" 508. I told him that that is ridiculous to demand that I buy a new receiver when the only thing wrong with it was a bad modem. He then continued on with the line about the residential phoneline requirement. I told him technically it is hooked up it just can't dial in which by the letter of the contract meets the requirement since it does not say the equipment is required to actually call in. He said that was splitting hairs. So basically I was being told I had to purchase a new reciever if I wanted to have even the perfectly working 508 activated. I told him that if that was the case then I expected a credit for the full purchase price of that 508. He told me that wasn't going to happen. I asked to speak to his supervisor, which turned out to be the same guy I dealt with back in July. At first this supervisor's comments were just being relayed to me by the first guy. I said this is ridiculous, I want to actually talk to him. I was then transferred to him. He actually made me take him thru the entire situation again, which really started to tick me off. He gave me the same two options at first but I wanted to try to get the working 508 activated. He said that according to their data the receiver was activated and working just fine. I told him that it was working but all of the programming was locked except for ERIN and Dish Channel. He then had me give him the receiver and smartcard #s, verify sat signal, and read off the switch info. The programming was still locked. He then had me go back and do another check switch which just gave him the same info (since I had done that to get the latest software prior to even calling in to him). He said that he would have to send a "hit" to re-authorize the receiver again. I then went back to the "broken" 508 issue (basically went thru the same arguement). In any case, this time he said I could just purchase the extended warranty for $5.99/month and they would RA this 508 and send out a replacement one. He went on to say that once I get the replacement receiver I could then cancel the extended warranty. So I verified that it would cost me $5.99 and approx $14 s/h for the replacement receiver and then I could cancel it with no penalties or charges. "Yes to all" was his answer. So I went with that option but asked why that was not offered by the first guy, to which he answered that he did not know since it is an option that is available to everyone.

So even though it started out really bad it did eventually end up being okay after spending 49 minutes and 32 seconds on the phone with them. I also asked since I have 4 phonelines in my house did it matter which one the receivers were hooked up to. He told me that it did not as long as they were all registered to me and the address on my account since the software just looks at the registered address to verify. So as of right now I have 3 of 4 receivers active and I am waiting for the replacement one to show up sometime next week...I'll update once I get that receiver in and activated.


----------



## DoyleS

Alpaca Bill, 
Your story is like an episode of LOST! I am glad in the end it looks like it is all working out and you can probably get off of the island. )


..Doyle


----------



## aquaman67

It's almost like they don't want you as a customer...like you're bothering them.


----------



## UHF

aquaman67 said:


> It's almost like they don't want you as a customer...like you're bothering them.


If we don't take care of the customer, maybe they'll stop bugging us.
http://store.yahoo.com/demotivators/ap24x30prin.html


----------



## sattec

I know a dealer that is not concerned by this activity......This is insane, Its killing the legitamit customer.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Alpaca Bill said:


> ...I then went back to the "broken" 508 issue (basically went thru the same arguement). In any case, this time he said I could just purchase the extended warranty for $5.99/month and they would RA this 508 and send out a replacement one. He went on to say that once I get the replacement receiver I could then cancel the extended warranty. So I verified that it would cost me $5.99 and approx $14 s/h for the replacement receiver and then I could cancel it with no penalties or charges. "Yes to all" was his answer. So I went with that option but asked why that was not offered by the first guy, to which he answered that he did not know since it is an option that is available to everyone.


What I find extremely curious in your post, was the particular bit I snipped/quoted above.

The audit team is supposed to be finding people that are cheating Dish by stacking their accounts, right? So... why would that same audit team advise of a different way to cheat Dish by activating a warranty, replacing a receiver, and cancelling that said warranty?

One loophole is ok to cheat by the audit team and not another (re: phone lines)? This alone makes me very suspicious... I wonder if the executives at Dish know this kind of thing is going on from their audit team?


----------



## Billcrates

I have a question that is now going on  - 

I live in New Orleans. After the hurricane, the local phone system is not always working right. I use functional phone jacks and the modems receivers work correctly Using the diagnostic phone tests, I try to get a connection completed. These modems start to connect, but the connection fails and I get a dial out failure. I have called DISH techs and they have confirmed that the modems work, but do not understand the reason of the connection drop off. My question is now, as explained in a few posts - it is not enough to have it connected to a phone line. The DISH audit team asks you to verify that the connection is complete to ensure Terms of Service and contract compliance. I am concerned that the audit team would shut my service down due to this issue. Do you have any advice or am I in compliance to the contract as all of my recievers are functional and connect to DISH but the connection fails . 

Let me know.


----------



## Jacob S

Dang, thats pretty bad. I had lightening strike a receiver once and it burnt the modem but the receiver still worked fine. I just sold the receiver telling the person that the modem was no good (it was a 7100 with webtv). Can a person sell a receiver to someone else that is on an account that was locked out and not allowed to be activated on that account? A lot of people can hardly operate their satellite system (particularly the DVR units) let alone go through the whole modem failure location id etc. mess. My guess is that Dish Network is getting a lot of cable customers. 

I am sure cable would offer them a good deal to come back. I have seen a number of people around here switching from Dish Network to DirecTv lately getting their free receiver deal with free movie channels. I also know that DirecTv has cheaper receivers. If a Dish network receiver or part goes bad and its expensive to replace some just go to DirecTv and get their promotion since its cheaper to do it that way.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Well this is the final straw.

My replacement 508 that I got just last Wed had the hard drive die today. I called into Dish but I am told that I need to call the wonderful audit team. I call them, explain what has happened and they say they'll temporarily unlock my account so the Tech Dept has access to it. I ask why my account is still being locked when the 4 receivers I have are all hooked to a phoneline. Her response was that is their policy. I asked "what policy?" She said that once an account comes thru the audit department it will remain locked forever and there is no way to get it unlocked. So basically in Dish's eyes once thought to be a crook you are always a crook even when you were following their rules and have proven otherwise. So from now on I have to call the Audit Team, explain my problem, they then choose to unlock my account or not and then get transferred to the end of the que for whatever department I need to talk to. Once that person hangs up my account gets locked back up. So even if the connection is lost or my call is dropped during a transfer the account gets locked and I have to repeat the process all over again. Needless to say this makes me furious!  The kicker is, the reason I was originally sent to the audit team was because we had a 301 in our RV with a valid RV Exemption on file but it had not called in for a long time (since it is mobile). Dish has since decided that RV Exemption are no longer valid (without any notification). They locked my account and "found out" I had a receiver that was not at my primary residence (i.e. the 301 in the RV) during my call in to get the account reactivated. We no longer own the RV and the 301 has not been hooked up since July of this year (it's in my closet). Yet I am still a crook in their eyes and my account will remain locked forever. I have not broken any of their ever changing policies. At any given time I was in compliance and when told I was not (due to their change of policy without notifiaction), I corrected the situation. Currently all 4 of my receivers (2 921s and 2 508s) are connected to a phoneline and have confirmed dial-ins to Dish

I am headed to the DirecTV retailer after dinner and making the switch. I've had enough! I have been with Dish since Feb of 96, subscribe to the Everything pkg + HD + Voom + Locals, pay annually, order PPV movies often for the kids, have 4 receivers(at times have had as many as 8), bought their newest receivers upon thier release (stopped after the 921 disaster), have referred 9 customers to them and this is how I get thanked! I want to thank everyone here for all the assistance with various issues over the years and wish everyone the best of luck with the NEW ERA OF DISH NETWORK....where they simply don't give a damn!!!!!


----------



## chrisk

Amen brother. If they treated me like that I would vote with my feet as well. I can't believe someone in the E* front office isn't monitoring this thread and seeing how the audit team treats customers, err or is that former customers.

Hopefully D* is happy to have you as a new customer and treats you with respect.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I hate to say the obvious... but I am sure Dish is viewing threads like this... and seeing the 10 people (or less) that are having bad experiences... and out of the millions of customers they have, these 10 would certainly be in the minority in their eyes.


----------



## DoyleS

Good Luck Alpaca Bill,

Drop by and post how you make out with DTV. Your story has helped the rest of us understand a lot more about the ways of the audit team. 

..Doyle


----------



## gdarwin

As a Dish customer for the last 11 months.... I can't believe the stories told here.

I hope I am not a target of the audit team.... I also spend big bucks with E*  

G.


----------



## gregleg

Wow, I wish I'd seen this thread last month.

I have a 942 (leased), 508 (owned), and ancient 4900 (also owned).

The 508 and 4900 aren't on phone lines, because, well, when I got the account set up 8 years ago, it wasn't necessary and I was never informed otherwise. The 942 IS on a phone line, because I was told specifically to hook that one up on the lease. I've certainly never signed a contract specifying that ALL my recievers need to be on the phone line.

Sure enough, last month I got an audit call. I called back and read them back the location id codes. So far no further problems. If they're going to drive away long-term high-rev customers (AT120 + HBO + Showtime + NHL Center Ice + HD + Voom here) with stupid unannounced policy changes, I'm sure Direct would be happy to pick some of them up.

(The phone line policy itself doesn't bother me much, although I wonder what happens when I ditch the landline entirely with the cellphone, but the principle of changing the policy without informing the customer is pretty bad.)


----------



## Marioski

DoyleS said:


> Marioski,
> 
> Just curious, are any of your receivers dual tuners. When I went through the various comments in the thread, it seemed that the total number of tuners was the most significant item. If the number of tuners was 5 and there were any unconnected then the probability of an audit seemed higher.
> 
> ..Doyle


Sorry have been away on my Honeymoon.

To answer your question. No, none of the receivers are dual tuners. Just your standard issue single tuner receiver. I had three of them, down to two know that I couldn't get one connected to a phone line. It's been permently killed.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Well went to DTV retailer last night. Pretty disappointed since they can only let me purchase 2 DVRs per month. So I would have to buy 2 now and wait until mid-Jan to buy the other 2. Seems kinda' silly to me. They also have not released the dual-tuner HD DVR MPEG4 receivers yet...they are slated for 1st quarter next year. I am going to call DTV directly and see what the story is. I really don't want to buy hardware that is going to be obsolete in a month or so.

Interesting side note, I found a thread at another board saying that DTV has decided to eliminate the phoneline requirement in their new receivers. They have developed some technology that allows them to store your PPV purchases on the smart card and then use a backchannel to read this info so it can be billed to you. They are also sending out discrete codes via their spotbeams which constantly keeps your receivers in an authorized state. If the receiver does not get the code the smart card gets locked and you have to call in to re-activate. This is their way to control pirates from activating an account in one city but then letting their relatives/friends in a different city join on for the $5/month. This will also suposedly prevent all of the cross-border (i.e. Canadian) pirates from receiving a signal. Not sure how successful this tech will be but sounds interesting.


----------



## LtMunst

Alpaca Bill said:


> Interesting side note, I found a thread at another board saying that DTV has decided to eliminate the phoneline requirement in their new receivers. They have developed some technology that allows them to store your PPV purchases on the smart card and then use a backchannel to read this info so it can be billed to you. They are also sending out discrete codes via their spotbeams which constantly keeps your receivers in an authorized state. If the receiver does not get the code the smart card gets locked and you have to call in to re-activate. This is their way to control pirates from activating an account in one city but then letting their relatives/friends in a different city join on for the $5/month. This will also suposedly prevent all of the cross-border (i.e. Canadian) pirates from receiving a signal. Not sure how successful this tech will be but sounds interesting.


Not sure how successful this could be. My bet is that the vast majority of stacked accounts are same town or at least fairly close. This spotbeam scheme would do nothing to prevent that.


----------



## James Long

Alpaca Bill said:


> Interesting side note, I found a thread at another board saying that DTV has decided to eliminate the phoneline requirement in their new receivers. They have developed some technology that allows them to store your PPV purchases on the smart card and then use a backchannel to read this info so it can be billed to you.


'Backchannel'? The only backchannel even D* receivers have (at the moment) is the phone line.


Alpaca Bill said:


> They are also sending out discrete codes via their spotbeams which constantly keeps your receivers in an authorized state. If the receiver does not get the code the smart card gets locked and you have to call in to re-activate.


Sounds like E* ... We've had repots on the fourm of people who took their boxes out of the stream too long and needed to call in.


Alpaca Bill said:


> This is their way to control pirates from activating an account in one city but then letting their relatives/friends in a different city join on for the $5/month. This will also suposedly prevent all of the cross-border (i.e. Canadian) pirates from receiving a signal. Not sure how successful this tech will be but sounds interesting.


It sounds like a lot of software to do what a simple phone line can do. The trouble with using spotbeams is that your receiver needs to tune to the spotbeam to see it. If someone left their receiver on 24x7 either the reciever would have to go into standby to retune to the spot for reauthorization (possibly at a moment when it was being watched) or fail authorization. Someone with a bad LNB or a 101 only dish could lose all channels just because they can't see a spot. Not a good thing.

E* is working on a couple of different ways to get away from the phone line to every receiver requirement - ways for the boxes to talk to each other within a household with only one receiver requiring a phone line. IF they programmed one receiver as the 'primary' and told the others to turn off unless they could see the primary it would solve many of the stacking problems. And they could just turn off 'instant' PPV if no phone line has been seen for a week or two.

Both E* and D* continue to tighten their footprints as well. The early satellites that blanketed the US into Canada and Mexico are out of style ... newer satellites are cut off closer to the borders. That automatically limits the Gray/Grey market sales, without resorting to spots.

JL


----------



## Bill R

Alpaca Bill said:


> Interesting side note, I found a thread at another board saying that DTV has decided to eliminate the phoneline requirement in their new receivers. They have developed some technology that allows them to store your PPV purchases on the smart card and then use a backchannel to read this info so it can be billed to you.


There is a lot of misinformation on some DBS boards. The only way (without a phone line) that the PPV information could be send back to DirecTV (I suppose that is who you mean by DTV) is via the net. The vendor would have the same (or worse) problem since many people would not connect their receivers to the net.

If the "backchannel" that you are referring to is transmitting the information back to DirecTV (via satellite), that is not going to happen either. It would be VERY expensive to build a transmitter into each receiver and would require a new LNB to transmit back to the satellite (current DBS LNBs only RECEIVE data, they can NOT transmit back to the satellite). Another problem is that each receiver (according to current FCC regs) would require an license in order to be able to transmit back to the satellite.


----------



## Stalky14

It doesn't fix the problem 100%, but it does address it in the eyes of the providers while not
making them look unreasonable to their customers. Good compromise. If this is truly
their policy I applaud them, and will give D* serious consideration if Dish hassles me about
my single unconnected receiver. 

Of course Dish could turn this around completely by using positive reinforcement instead
of negative. Waive the extra receiver fees entirely for those who plug them in. 
That would sure as hell motivate me to go do a little wiring.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

Stalky14 said:


> Of course Dish could turn this around completely by using positive reinforcement instead
> of negative. Waive the extra receiver fees entirely for those who plug them in.
> That would sure as hell motivate me to go do a little wiring.


 I agree it would be better to waive the additional receiver fees if you kept your receiver plugged into a phone line at all times. It would make more sense then using a Gestapho AUDIT team to harrase their customers and lose them in the process. Instead Dish agrees not to charge you a phone line connection fee for 4.99 on the 522/625/942 receivers, if you keep it plugged into a phone line and still charges you the additional receiver fee for 4.99 on any extra receivers. So the sat company still makes it's money either way and they get to harrase you in the process with the Audit team as well.


----------



## AllieVi

Complaining to DISH apparently doesn't get the response people want. Maybe it's time for those who are upset to re-direct their complaints.

Cable companies across the country would probably be happy to include these horror stories in their ads - they just need documentation by way of a number of letters from affected DISH customers.

If cable tv advertising highlighted the situation, DISH would be forced to address it.


----------



## LtMunst

AllieVi said:


> Complaining to DISH apparently doesn't get the response people want. Maybe it's time for those who are upset to re-direct their complaints.
> 
> Cable companies across the country would probably be happy to include these horror stories in their ads - they just need documentation by way of a number of letters from affected DISH customers.
> 
> If cable tv advertising highlighted the situation, DISH would be forced to address it.


I don't think that is a war the cable companies want to start. It would not be terribly difficult to dredge up hundreds of thousands of Cable horror stories (like the 3 months of bills and collections threats I got for receivers lost after I cancelled service even though I had the receipts to prove I turned them in).


----------



## manicd

Ever redeem a PPV coupon? When you sign it you are agreeing to the terms of service from Dish.

I don't have one curently, maybe someone here does and the can post the excact language.


----------



## stonecold

Darkman said:


> Can't the cheater, just get on the Cell phone say.. and call his buddy.. get buddy to give him the #... and then provide this number to DISH?
> 
> my understanding was / is that that number is kinda random.. and changes everytime the receiver is rebooted maybe even.. (not sure on that though) ... unless though .. be it random or not.. but somehow they can tie up the number to one's account...
> 
> Not sure anyhow.... just talking out loud


The number is not random . While the location number may seem random it is not. The location id is based on your Recievers R00 number and the time of day. there are a few people who know the algorythm to can figure out your location id just by the time of day and r00


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Where exactly did you read this about D* dropping the phone line requirement? Do you have a link for us? Thanks.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Sorry, didn't mean to take this thread of topic with this info about D*s new receivers. If you do a search for their new media center receivers you should be able to find several forums with the info.

Anyway, my saga continues! On Tue I dealt with the Audit Team to get my replacement 508 RA'd to get another replacement. It came today so I called these lovely people back to get it activated. This process is pretty painless except you still have to deal with the sparkling personalities of the Audit Team. After getting it activated I had 2 questions I wanted answers to:
1) After living in our new house since July and having average monthly phone bills of $225 (we have 3 lines with most features and an alternate ring for our fax) I decided to investigate VoiceWing from Verizon (our local telco). This is their VoIP service. Basically each line would run me $30/mo and comes with all of their available features including unltd local and long distance to US and Canada (my wife's family is in Canada so we spend a lot calling them). So for $90/mo, a savings of at least $135/mo, I will have more features and better service than I do now. So I asked the Audit Team how my account would be dealt with since I am switching over to VoIP. His response was, "Well you were auditted back in July so you aren't up for audit for a long time so it probably wouldn't effect my account at all." When I asked, "When I do get auditted again how do I get my account unlocked?" he said it probably wouldn't happen. So basically I get "caught" in the audit for not having a phoneline connected to a receiver with a valid RV exemption that they changed the policy on without notification and now this same Dept is telling me not to worry about it if I do not hook up my receivers to a phoneline (that I won;t have due to my switch to VoIP). Talk about confusing!?!?! So I am going to try to get something in writing from a supervisor explaining their policy in regards to customers with VoIP so that I have something to fall back on when I end up in the Audit Dept again. So I moved on.

2) Even though I had asked this on Tue I asked him how long my account would remain in the Audit Dept. I got a completely different answer from the one on Tue. He told me that since my 301 failed the audit back in July and since it was still on my account (as a deactivated receiver) my account would remain in his dept. I told him to remove it from my account since 1) we do not own an RV any longer and 2) the 301 is sitting in my closet not being used (were it has been since July). And this would get my account out fo the Audit Dept so I cold call in directly to the normal CSRs and Tech Dept. His response was that the 301 could not be removed from my account. I told him that I wanted to give it to my brother (who against my advice) just subscribed to Dish and has a 625 and wanted another receiver for his bedroom to watch the news at night (hence not wanting to spend a lot of money on it). Not possible, he says, since you could then place it into your RV. My reply was what RV I told you we sold it and I can fax you the sales papers. And besides that fact, it would be on his account registered under his name and hooked up to his phoneline. Doesn't matter it is policy that the only way this receiver can be activated again is by a new Dish customer as their PRIMARY receiver, I activate an additional account for it, or I send it back to them (but they would not give me any credit for it). What idiot would buy my 301 as their primary receiver when, as a new customer, they can get a 522 or 625 for free amongst other promos out there??!!?? He said alot of people have 301s as their primary receiver (which I do not believe one minute!!!). I can't even activate under my own account once it is hooked to a phoneline!! I then asked him if I sent in a video of me running over the receiver in my truck and showing the guts all splintered on the ground would it be removed...No. He said that was their policy. I asked what policy is this? I have read thru every sentence of my Residential Use Agreement and it does not say anything like this and I never agreed to anything like this. Well it is our, the Audit Team's, policy that once a receiver fails an audit these are the rules for that account/receiver. I asked how can I be forced to accept policies that I have never even seen nor heard of. He said no one has seen them other than Dish employees. God I wish I was an attorney because I would have a hay day with this! So I asked to be transferred to a supervisor that I had dealt with in the past but had to leave a VM. We'll see what the outcome of this is.

I still fail to understand the logic of how I got stuck in the Audit Dept anyway. I had a valid RV Exemption, which they can verify on my account, but then they changed this policy without any notification. So then I got "caught" breaking the Residential Use Agreement with this 301 by not having a phoneline hooked up to it. When I asked him how this was even in the slightest fair or right since I was in complete compliance to their policies until they changed them without notice and now I can't even get back into compliance with this receiver due to thier new Audit Team policy, that I have never agreed to...he just says that when I was auditted the 301 failed since it was not hooked up to a phoneline which is a violation of the Residential Use Agreement. Okay but the RV Exemption was exactly that an exemption to the RUA to exempt that receiver from the phoneline requirment of the RUA. But at the time of the audit the RV Exemptions had been eliminated and your receiver failed the phoneline requirement of the RUA. Yes it did but unless I am notified that the RV Exemption is no longer valid, how am I supposed to be in compliance? Keeps repeating the phoneline requirement of the RUA. Ask to be transferred to the supervisor since I am dealing with a broken record.   :nono2: :nono2:


----------



## atvman

Why is the RV and truck info still on the dish network website if this is not allowed anymore? :nono2:


----------



## Mike D-CO5

I think you should send an email to the ceo at dishnetwork. It sounds like this audit team has gone way to far with no checks and balances to keep them from running amuck. Anyone know the email address for the executive offices?


----------



## Billcrates

This is beyond contract compliance ! If you meet the printed rules and submit the paperwork for an RV and it is accepted - then you should be allowed to use the reciever in the RV. The company should by least by ethics and concern for the customer send out a change notice when it retracts a policy. I realize they have the right to revoke standards in which you do business, but the customer still pays the bills. It makes me think there is a bigger problem and I wish I could figure it out. Dish should consider that when you chase a customer away you lose 10 perspective ones - not a good business practice. In my company( a Fortune 20 company), this type of process would get some one fired......


----------



## nsafreak

If I understand Dish network policies correctly they aren't saying that you can't use it in your RV they're saying that your RV receiver can't be on the same account as the rest of your receivers. So they're saying that you must have a separate account for your RV when previously they seemed to be overlooking it whether it's a matter of law enforcement or not I couldn't say. So it looks like the folks that have RVs are now going to need separate accounts and start shutting off the accounts when they aren't using the RV. I speculate that it may have something to do with the laws because I'm sure some people were using the RV waivers just for getting distant networks not necessarily that they needed them on their RV. This may have been an issue and they are now taking care of it.


----------



## digiblur

No big deal with the VoIP thing. I have my 811 hooked up to VoicePulse's $14.95 a month plan with no problems. I've purchased one or two PPV's and they've reported properly. On screen caller ID works fine too. 

I've set up two people with dual tuner boxes that were cell-phone only homes with a Sipura 1001 configured with FreeWorldDialup, the receivers have no problem calling up to Dish with the free VoIP service. Nor has Dish called them about the receivers....


----------



## n0qcu

The RV exemption is ONLY to allow you to get the distant network signal without having to get a waiver from your local affiliate.


----------



## AllieVi

atvman said:


> Why is the RV and truck info still on the dish network website if this is not allowed anymore? :nono2:


I believe the exemption is still available, but it doesn't work the way it once did.

In years past, a subscriber with the waiver could choose to have broadcast network channels from their home and two additional major cities. Now, the waiver allows only one city total. It's therefore possible to live in Podunk and get the NY or LA major networks, but you lose the Podunk locals in the process.

This policy is clearly not of DISH's making. They would like nothing more than the ability to sell everyone all the distant networks. I'm sure they are simply obeying the letter of some law or ruling.


----------



## Billcrates

nsafreak said:


> If I understand Dish network policies correctly they aren't saying that you can't use it in your RV they're saying that your RV receiver can't be on the same account as the rest of your receivers. So they're saying that you must have a separate account for your RV when previously they seemed to be overlooking it whether it's a matter of law enforcement or not I couldn't say. So it looks like the folks that have RVs are now going to need separate accounts and start shutting off the accounts when they aren't using the RV. I speculate that it may have something to do with the laws because I'm sure some people were using the RV waivers just for getting distant networks not necessarily that they needed them on their RV. This may have been an issue and they are now taking care of it.


That is ok - They should just communicate it to the customers. Businesses should have written standards and if you want services you abide by them. Calling up and auditing you to an unannounced standard is not good business sense. It can create ill will among your customer base.


----------



## James Long

> If you are the owner of a Recreational Vehicle (RV) or a commercial truck driver, you can receive Broadcast Network Programming, including ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and FOX. If you qualify, you can receive *up to two* network packages (ABC, CBS, NBC or FOX) from your choice of 5 cities, Chicago, Atlanta, Denver, Los Angeles, New York, plus the national PBS channel.
> http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/locals/rv_truck/​


JL


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Okay but what is the point of having an RV Declararion page that allows you to receive 1 or 5 distant network pkgs if they are going to audit the receiver and disable it since it simply cannot be hooked to a phoneline?!?!?!?! If you read the declaration and see ANY reference to a phoneline requirement please highlight it for me...I do not see it anywhere. And common sense says that if the receiver is permanently attached to teh RV as per the declaration's requirements, it could not be hooked up to a phoneline. So it's obviuos that this must be the problem...DIsh lacks common sense!!! They have set up everyone that uses their own forms to fail.

Besides I am not upset by the fact I was auditted, I am upset due to the reason I was and even though it was due to thier own change of policy I now have a receiver that is SEVERLY restricted in use (i.e. I can only sell it to a non-Dish customer). There is no one to talk to that can make a difference. Everyone I spoke to in the Audit Dept saw I had an RV Exemption but that was not deemed "legal" any longer and locked that receiver. I know Dish reserves the right to change it's policies at any time but they can only do so with notification of such a change. The same is true with your car and house insurance and pretty much any other user agreement. So the fact remains that Dish changed it's policies without notification and that is not legal to do.


----------



## James Long

What I cannot find on the dishnetwork site is that RV's must be a separate account. I can't see an exeption that allows the mobile RV receiver (which will typically be used in a different location than the home) to be on a fixed location account either. Apparently a gray area that has shifted to the second meaning: You need a separate account for the RV.

JL


----------



## AllieVi

I don't see a big problem here, just a minor inconvenience. When traveling, simply move the primary receiver into the RV - take it back into the house at the end of the trip.

In the unlikely event that the auditors call while you're away, you won't be able to respond anyway, so it really won't matter. If the auditors decide to cut off service because you don't call them back within a certain time, the only receivers affected will be additional ones on the account - the main one in your RV will still be active. You then sort it all out when you return home.

Those who don't live in one of the few major market areas will lose locals when they drive out of their spot beam, but the remaining channels will all be there.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

James Long said:


> What I cannot find on the dishnetwork site is that RV's must be a separate account. I can't see an exeption that allows the mobile RV receiver (which will typically be used in a different location than the home) to be on a fixed location account either. Apparently a gray area that has shifted to the second meaning: You need a separate account for the RV.
> 
> JL


JL,

That is my point. Dish seems to make policy changes but they leave alot left in the gray area.

And once again, I am mostly ticked off that they have rendered my 301 completely useless to me. I still faill to see why if I hook it to a phoneline in my home that they would not reactivate it or even at the least allow me to sell it to anyone not just a non-Dish customer to use as their primary receiver. I see those restrictions way too unfair.

In all reality this 301 was used mostly in our basement during our family get-togethers (2-4 times a year). We used it in our RV for the 20-30 days a year we went camping. And even then we only really used it while driving to keep the kids entertained and at night to watch the news (mostly for weather). So in reality I was paying $60/yr for something that may have been used for a total of 20-30 hours a year. But now since our kids are older and they now have friends that will come over to sleep over, we were going to use it full-time in the basement (and we don't have an RV any longer) for them to use so they can have thier own space and don't take over my family room.


----------



## DoyleS

There are some funnies about having receivers removed from an account. I ran into this when I upgraded a 301 to a 508. The 301 is deactivated and yet it is not removed from my account. I had asked to have it removed and the tech CSR said that it stays with your account until it is sold and someone else activates it. I would say to give the 301 to your brother and have him try to activate it and see what happens. Worst case they tell him it can't be activated and you are in the same place as you are now. Best case, it gets activated and then is off of your account. 

..Doyle


----------



## AllieVi

James Long said:


> (quoting DISH web site)
> _If you are the owner of a Recreational Vehicle (RV) or a commercial truck driver, you can receive Broadcast Network Programming, including ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and FOX. If you qualify, you can receive *up to two* network packages (ABC, CBS, NBC or FOX) from your choice of 5 cities, Chicago, Atlanta, Denver, Los Angeles, New York, plus the national PBS channel._


I applied for the RV waiver earlier this year when my grandfathered status to receive NY locals expired. The CSR would allow me to select only a single distant package, but if I did, my LA locals would be removed.

It's remotely possible that the CSR was wrong (that precedent has already been set). Maybe someone will contact a CSR to get a second opinion and post the result here.


----------



## sattec

for an RV to need it's own acount is crazy.....my RV is parked for months and almost always needs a hit to wake it up. So now I have to pay full price for 4 months total service?? Because my receiver is a "certified " tracvision unit (runs on 12 volts) , I should get distant locals without a question on that receiver, but no way! must have is own account but the home account is in an area that has local in local, but its on spot beam so we have no networks when we leave the area...duh directv!!
Tracvision rx's should automaticly qualify for national locals!!!!!


----------



## Alpaca Bill

DoyleS said:


> There are some funnies about having receivers removed from an account. I ran into this when I upgraded a 301 to a 508. The 301 is deactivated and yet it is not removed from my account. I had asked to have it removed and the tech CSR said that it stays with your account until it is sold and someone else activates it. I would say to give the 301 to your brother and have him try to activate it and see what happens. Worst case they tell him it can't be activated and you are in the same place as you are now. Best case, it gets activated and then is off of your account.
> 
> ..Doyle


I have had other receivers removed from my account in the past even though I still own them like my 2 7100s, 2 7200s, 2 501s, 3 other 301s, a 4000, and 2 1000s. These receivers are all in my basement in a box. They do not show up on my account at all, even as deactivated.

I am going to give my brother the 301 tomorrow and let him try to activate it. The biggest hurdle here is that he has to call into the Audit Team to get it activated since it is a locked receiver. I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## James Long

The RV exemption only applies to the reception of distants is something that E* and D* are requred to offer. E* and D* are NOT required to offer the RV receiver on the same account (and a close reading of the rules would prevent reception of the distants on the fixed location receivers unless one lived in a white area or was grandfathered).

JL


----------



## AllieVi

Alpaca Bill said:


> I have had other receivers removed from my account in the past even though I still own them like my 2 7100s, 2 7200s, 2 501s, 3 other 301s, a 4000, and 2 1000s. These receivers are all in my basement in a box. They do not show up on my account at all, even as deactivated. ...


The question I have is, were they "released" from your account?

IIRC, that specific term refers to DISH disassociating those receivers from you. Until that occurs, I believe the receivers are still tied to your account in their records (even though it may not appear that way). I suspect DISH keeps track of the current owner of all its receivers, even those not currently activated.



Alpaca Bill said:


> ... I am going to give my brother the 301 tomorrow and let him try to activate it. The biggest hurdle here is that he has to call into the Audit Team to get it activated since it is a locked receiver. I'll let you know how it goes.


Should be interesting...


----------



## CCarncross

Call me crazy, but do they require you to send them a copy of proof of ownership of an RV to get the RV waiver? Like a copy of the title on file, or something like that? To prevent people from applying for RV waivers when they dont have an RV to get channels they shouldnt be getting? I can see a bunch of low lifes abusing this policy if it wasnt very clear cut and black and white language...


----------



## buddhawood

CCarncross said:


> Call me crazy, but do they require you to send them a copy of proof of ownership of an RV to get the RV waiver? Like a copy of the title on file, or something like that? To prevent people from applying for RV waivers when they dont have an RV to get channels they shouldnt be getting? I can see a bunch of low lifes abusing this policy if it wasnt very clear cut and black and white language...


I had to send a copy of title and registration


----------



## AllieVi

Here's a link to the DISH web page that provides details:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/locals/rv_truck/

You may have to take the information on the page with a grain of salt, though. If you do a "view source" in your browser, you'll see the following header information for the page:


----------



## Alpaca Bill

AllieVi said:


> The question I have is, were they "released" from your account?
> 
> IIRC, that specific term refers to DISH disassociating those receivers from you. Until that occurs, I believe the receivers are still tied to your account in their records (even though it may not appear that way). I suspect DISH keeps track of the current owner of all its receivers, even those not currently activated.


Yes they were released from my account. I have asked several times since this past Feb when they sent out the new yellow smart cards. I did receive a few cards for receivers that had not been activated or used for well over a year. I called in and discovered that they had 2 receivers that I had told them to remove since I had replaced them with the 2 921s but they had failed to do so. The CSR told me that he would remove them so that they were off of my account for good. This info was confirmed back in July during my first audit. He only asked me about the 5 receivers that were on my account. I asked if any other receivers were showing up on my account and he told me no. And when I asked this last Audit Team rep, once he told me that it was the 301 keeping me in the audit dept, what other receivers were on my account, he replied just teh 2 508s and 2 921s. I specifically asked about the receivers I had on my account in the past and he told me he could see that they were once on my account but that they had been removed since I had activated other receivers to replace them. But as always, I don't accept that as written in stone since DIsh seems to change thier policies and positions whenever they would like.


----------



## jerryez

Subscribing to everything and having five receivers would cause a flag, since if you were splitting the cost with your neighbors. The cost per receiver(neighbor) would be very low.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

jerryez said:


> Subscribing to everything and having five receivers would cause a flag, since if you were splitting the cost with your neighbors. The cost per receiver(neighbor) would be very low.


Yeah that probably would be true but I am not doing any account sharing/stacking. Beleive it or not there are people out there with more than 1 or 2 tvs! When we built our house we had an "extra" living room and bedroom built onto the house so that my parents could move in. My current setup is a 921 in my family room (Mitsu 65" HD DLP), a 508 in my bedroom (Sharp 37" HD LCD), another 921 in my parents living room (Sharp 37" HD LCD), and the other 508 in their bedroom (Sony 32" HD CRT). Once I finsh the basement, which will house my dedicated home theater Runco DLP projector on a 10' DaLite screen...nothing but HD will even be shown here since at 10' even Dish's "ALL DIGITAL" SD looks like the graphics on my Atari 2600!!!), I will be adding a 942 (or whatever the equivalent at the time). Also as my 4 kids get older I will want to add 811s (or its equivalent, ideally a HD DVR) to each of their rooms (they each have 23" HD LCD monitors). So in the end I will end up with 9 receivers. This doesn't even take into the receiver I would like to run into my office since I do work at home or my workshop. Now I could reduce this number if Dish would develop a 2 tuner HD receiver that could send the signal out via cat5 (ala intranet) so that the pic quality was just as good (something like the 625 or 942 but have the TV2 output be a high quality output not coax) on the 2nd TV as it is on the 1st. Or how about a media center type receiver that could distribute the HD programming to any TV in the house at high quality.

I have several friends with 6-12 receivers in thier house. Again not a single one is accoutn sharing/stacking.


----------



## tafische

Got a message on my answering machine last Tuesday that said "This is DISH, please call right away to avoid a service interuption"

I called and they said they needed to verify my receivers since they had not called in and it would take around 15 minutes. I was about to sit down to dinner so I said I would have to do it later - they said that was fine - call back when convienent.

Friday comes - middle of the day - and they leave another message and then shut me off at the same time. I was pissed! (Actually my kids where pissed) Called Dish from work and let them have it. They restored service for a few days, but said it will go out again until I call. 

Been a customer for 9 years and never had anything like this.

Anyone know what is up? Why do they need to verify my receivers?


----------



## chaddux

tafische said:


> Got a message on my answering machine last Tuesday that said "This is DISH, please call right away to avoid a service interuption"
> 
> I called and they said they needed to verify my receivers since they had not called in and it would take around 15 minutes. I was about to sit down to dinner so I said I would have to do it later - they said that was fine - call back when convienent.
> 
> Friday comes - middle of the day - and they leave another message and then shut me off at the same time. I was pissed! (Actually my kids where pissed) Called Dish from work and let them have it. They restored service for a few days, but said it will go out again until I call.
> 
> Been a customer for 9 years and never had anything like this.
> 
> Anyone know what is up? Why do they need to verify my receivers?


That was a call from DISH Network's audit team to make sure you aren't sharing your account with other households and that all of your receivers are at one location. You can get more than enough information regarding this procedure in this 457-reply thread on the topic.


----------



## James Long

Threads Merged


----------



## tafische

Thx James...Searched...but missed it....

Boy that really makes me mad....what a stupid procedure....

When I called last time I was at work because the wife called and said it was out. When I called the rep and he said how long do I need I said 'how bout calling back in a year' He didnt take that too well..but I didnt care cause I was pissed. Then he asked for another date. I said "two weeks...that will give me enough time to get Direct out to put in a system". That shut him up too. Bunch of idiots.


----------



## netnerdvana

Tafische, you might be just ribbing the Dish Harrassment Rep but I actually did it. 

No more ... Please call this 1-800 from M-F during day time hours. 

SCREW THAT.

No more AT60 HBO Voom.
Busted the ol 942 back to HD Pack only and slapped in a Directv receiver with 
my old 350 hour TIVO. TIVO rocks .... never looked back.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

tafische said:


> Got a message on my answering machine last Tuesday that said "This is DISH, please call right away to avoid a service interuption"
> 
> I called and they said they needed to verify my receivers since they had not called in and it would take around 15 minutes. I was about to sit down to dinner so I said I would have to do it later - they said that was fine - call back when convienent.
> 
> Friday comes - middle of the day - and they leave another message and then shut me off at the same time. I was pissed! (Actually my kids where pissed) Called Dish from work and let them have it. They restored service for a few days, but said it will go out again until I call.


Just a question... but when someone tells you that they will "call later" what do you assume that means? Several hours or days or what?

I expect that since you said you were about to have dinner, and asked if you could call back later, they assumed you meant later that evening after you had your dinner.

If it went from Tuesday to Friday and you still hadn't called... I expect that's why they called back and said they were disconnecting you until you called. They had trusted you to "call later" and when they didn't hear from you, and they called back only to get an answering machine again they probably thought you were jerking them around.

I'm not saying it is friendly and fair... but if you were in their shoes, what would be your assumption?


----------



## AllieVi

HDMe said:


> Just a question... but when someone tells you that they will "call later" what do you assume that means? Several hours or days or what?
> 
> I expect that since you said you were about to have dinner, and asked if you could call back later, they assumed you meant later that evening after you had your dinner.
> 
> If it went from Tuesday to Friday and you still hadn't called... I expect that's why they called back and said they were disconnecting you until you called. They had trusted you to "call later" and when they didn't hear from you, and they called back only to get an answering machine again they probably thought you were jerking them around.
> 
> I'm not saying it is friendly and fair... but if you were in their shoes, what would be your assumption?


I agree with your thoughts, particularly since the original message was _"This is DISH, please call right away to avoid a service interuption."_

tafische - I notice you've been a member for a while, but only show 2 postings (as of now). If you haven't been reading the messages, you may not understand the issue. Comments earlier in this (merged) thread will give you some perspective.


----------



## scooper

tafische - you have 
1. - How many receivers ?
2. How many connected to phoneline ?

IF your answer to 2 doesn't equal the answer to 1, that's why you got called.

And if you would read this whole thread, well, you can read for yourself...


----------



## tafische

Well I actually didnt find this thread until after I posted my first message and the admin merged it. I have since gone back and read the whole thing. Still a joke. 

When the guy called the first time and I was busy I specifically said 'does this mean you are about to turn my service off?' he said NO - they just need to verify everything was working properly.

What am I suppoed to think? I know everything is working properly, why do I care if THEY have a problem and want to verify it. They dont tell me they are doing an audit.

Now I have two young kids at home, work all day -- come home eat, put the kids to bed and try to relax before I have to get up and do it all over again. Why in the world do I want to waste or even think about calling dish back and waste part of an evening verifing my receivers work when I am watching them.

Why dont they be honest and tell me 'we are doing an audit'..... As far as I am concerned this is thier problem - not mine. When I signed up for Dish in 96 you were not required to have a phone line connected. As far I am concerned this has not changed nor will I change. 

Can you tell I am a little peaved? lol


----------



## Doggfather

I got my call recentlyand came home to my 942 being shut off.. I was upset to say the least.. they are like the gestapo/SS... I have been with dish since 96, never had more than 2 receivers, i have americas top everything, nhl ticket, all hd, voom you name it, cbs-hd i pay about 110 a month, and i got treated like a thief on the phone. The guy asked me if this is your address do you live above so and so, what kind of business is that of his!?!?! or dish's?? this has gone way too far, i have never shared an account, i have always paid and been an honest customer and the guy told me that until i fax utility bills in with my name at that address he is limiting my account to just one receiver permanently... who the hell does dish think they are? How can you treat honest people like this!?! It is because when i signed up there was no social security number requirements etc etc etc so he cant prove who I say I am i guess, but still this is totally nuts now... im not a D* fan at all, but i tell you he is under serious consideration from me of getting my 110 a month at this point... I felt like I stole something from talking to this guy...

I can not help but think that charlie is really going to anoy his customers with this nonsense. I explained that i have vonage and that short of having multiple adaptors in the house which i dont that my house has too much wire for that little device to handle so i cant plug them in all the time as they just dont work (the draw on the vonage box is too much, it drops voltage drastically with enough phones/line on it) When i conect it tdirect to the receiver everything works fine... I asked how often i need to dial in to avoid this and he said dont worry, your limited to one receiver now so it isnt an issue!!! Gee thanks, i feel warm and fuzzzy all of a sudden [email protected]@ss!!!  I read my location id's etc off fine to the guy too..So now, should i ever want more i need to fax to them my bills and all sorts of info they cant possibly be legally privy too! I am very annoyed...


----------



## chrisk

VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET! Don't come here and ***** about the way the audit team treated you. Cancel your service and sign up with another satellite or cable provider. The only way they will get the message is when it affects the bottom line.

Apparently the audit team is saving them more money than is costs to operate the team and lose a few customers. Once that balance changes, the team will be disbanded. The only way to make that happen is to cancel your service and use another provider.

A little story here:

I had been with a well respected home/auto/credit card company for over 20 years. I paid them over $25,000 in premiums through the 20 + years. My wife got a speeding ticket (65 in a 55) and a minor (<$1500 damage) accident in one year. The insurance company effectively dropped me by putting me in the state uninsured motorist pool. Same premium but 1/3 the coverage I currently had.

I called them exactly once to ask why they had done this to a loyal customer. They responed that they look at the the last three years driving and claim record and mine was below their standards. I asked if loyalty for 20+ years mattered? The person said yes but they only look at the last three years. I asked to speak to a manager or supervisor, that person told me the same thing and that their decision was final.

I promptly called another car insurance company, got rate $100 less per year for the same coverage I currently had. I called another home insurance company and got more coverage for the same cost. Credit card offers are a dime a dozen, so a new CC was also easy. In the end, I saved money and got more coverage. The new companied have been fine. I have no illusion that they are my "friends" but you can get most services from other vendors.

When I called the original company to cancel my insurance and credit cards the phone reps sent me to "retention specialists". I told each of them my story and flatly refused any of their "offers" to stay. I told them they should have thought about the competition fromn other companies long before deciding to stick it to customers they have had for 20+ years.

The bottom line is companies do not care about you as a customer. They only care about the bottom line. When you affect that, then they "care" about you as a customer and put you on wiht a 'retention specialist'. They would not need 'retention specialists' if they treated you right to begin with.


----------



## Doggfather

yes agreed, sadly im one of those poor [email protected] that owns all his equptment, dpp44's all dish pro lnb's custom oversized dishes, receivers you name it.. it;s a loss for me too...not to mention a real pain in the rear to do it all... but se la vie, the time may have come... i liked dish till this incident is all i can say... they seem to be innovators, but if they treat loyalty with this level of respect who cares about technical prowess...

-Doggfather


----------



## James Long

Sounds like a lot of yelling. Sounds easier just to have phone lines connected.

JL


----------



## DoyleS

That seems a little short sighted JL,

If he indeed passed the location id test then what is the complaint. The history of the audit team is now some 20 pages of threads long and it is pretty easy to see the patterns. We accuse the police of abuse when they profile what appear to be suspicious subjects. I would find it hard to believe that most people reading these threads have not developed a profile of the audit team. One bad apple can spoil the entire bunch and although based on the poll only about 10% of us are being exposed to the audit team, I still have developed an opinion of them based on the testimony of a number of long term customers. I may never be audited as I have two connected and one not connected but I surely will not take any level of abuse from a company I am paying to deliver a service. They do not have a monopoly in this business and I could clearly live without them. 

..Doyle


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Doggfather said:


> I got my call recentlyand came home to my 942 being shut off.. I was upset to say the least.. they are like the gestapo/SS...


I'm going to not comment on the rest of the described experience, because I don't know all the details... and I've not gone through an audit myself so I have no personal experience from which to relate.

However... since the "gestapo/SS" line has been used a few times in this thread, I wanted to address that.

Did the audit team come into your house, drag you and your wife and kids out naked into the streets and shove you into small boxes that you had to sleep and use the bathroom in and not feed you? And did they also experiment on you and shoot some of you and leave you to rot?

Because if they didn't... then I hardly think a comparison to the gestapo/SS is a valid one... and I suspect that Holocaust survivors wouldn't think so either.

Just something to think about when being overly dramatic in making analogies.

Rant mode off.


----------



## Billcrates

I am also of the opinion that the audit team is not just heavy handed, but starting to get on the slippery slope of being unethical . I was begining to think that they were getting more customer friendly in some of the posts on page 19. However, the faxing of utility bills is a bit much . I do not think that most of the DISH audit team apologists can defend these types of actions. The poster indicated that he passed the location test and that should be sufficent. If the account was set up that way and the paper bill was send for 9 years, it is a natural assumption that the person lives there. One would think DISH could have sent a letter asking for some more info if they needed it. Shutting off service to a person for the reasons in the post 467 is not the way keep a long term customer and attract new ones. I am wondering why the heavy handed actions with customers that seem NOT to be account sharing. There is more to this than meets the eye or the 450+ posts ????????


----------



## Billcrates

HDMe said:


> I'm going to not comment on the rest of the described experience, because I don't know all the details... and I've not gone through an audit myself so I have no personal experience from which to relate.
> 
> However... since the "gestapo/SS" line has been used a few times in this thread, I wanted to address that.
> 
> Did the audit team come into your house, drag you and your wife and kids out naked into the streets and shove you into small boxes that you had to sleep and use the bathroom in and not feed you? And did they also experiment on you and shoot some of you and leave you to rot?
> 
> Because if they didn't... then I hardly think a comparison to the gestapo/SS is a valid one... and I suspect that Holocaust survivors wouldn't think so either.
> 
> Just something to think about when being overly dramatic in making analogies.
> 
> Rant mode off.


I have to agree with you. The refrences to German WWII police are inappropriate. The audit team may be a bit heavy handed , but their actions are not in the same universe as the Gestapo......


----------



## zmark

It's possible that the audit team has a quota to fill. If upper management is expecting X number of violators, then the audit team faces termination if they don't find X number of violators. Also, consider that 5+ receiver homes are such a small minority of customers that Charile probably doesn't care if he loses them.


----------



## Spruceman

This is so opposite from Directv. A couple years back, as winter was settig in, I called DirecTV to cancel the account for the place in WV and keep my separate acct for the house in VA. They told me about their suspension option re WV when I'm not there in the winter, gave me a big programming credit, and ---get this, offered to merge the two accounts into one if they could get waivers from the local stations serving the VA address. They even tried to get waivers, and kept me informed of the (futile) progress. And get this....all without having landline telephone service at the WV place.. would cost $12,000 to get a tel line run up the mtn.

That's quite the opposite from how E* is handling things now. I reckon the day will come E* will not be able to reach me by phone -- and shut me off. Also opposite from years ago, when D* were the tel line nazis and E* was understanding company; and realized large sparsely populated areas of the country simply cant get landline (or even cellular) phone service. 

E* should be aware that a significant percentage of the population are giving up their landlines and going cellular only. Next thing I suppose is Charlie and company will expect RV's to have big coils of wire on the roof and run a landline along the highway as they travel about the country/


----------



## Mike D-CO5

IF this keeps up, then anyone without a land line phone line will not be able to go with Dishnetwork. I too feel that they are being short sighted when it comes to land lines and cell phone accounts. But if you remember when Dish was trying to add subs at any cost in the past , they allowed just about anything to get subs. They let you have upto 6 receivers and they didn't care if you had a phone line connected. Charlie himself mentioned taking his receiver to his vacation home and hooking it up as a plus. Now it is considered illegal to do this. Dish used to allow you to get east /west coast networks without any waivers on a regular basis. Then the congress stepped in on that one and changed the laws. Now Dish wants everyone to be legit and to comply to a strict group of new rules, many which contradicts what they used to allow. Even Rv exemptions are not understandble anymore. 

I don't agree with the heavy handed audit tactics either , as I feel they will cause more churn and cost them more than the possible stacking going on. After all , when ever someone is treated badly by a company , they spend a lot of time spreading the word to family, friends, coworkers etc. That is a lot of bad publicity. 

OF course with Directv it was extortion tactics that got people riled up. Pay $3500.00 or will sue you in court because we suspect you have been stealing our service. Either way it is going to cost you money to get a lawyer to represent you. I don't think Directv had to pay your court cost if they lost either. Directv would sue whole groups at a time in class action type lawsuits . They lost almost every time because they couldn't prove that you were stealing sat service unless they had physical proof . They have backed off of this approach since I read about these cases in the paper last year. 

I made the decision to be legit and even went with SBC/ATT now at the begining of this year in February. I even got my DSL internet with them. I then bought my first 942 in April and a second one in June. I have both receivers hooked up to a phone line. 

I also got audited last year in the summer and had all of my receivers turned off except one because I was a cell phone only customer. After that experience I decided to stop fighting it and changed all of my utilities around to be able to have Dish /DSL/Land line. I am actually not spending more money to do this either. I used to spend about 57.00 for Road runner internet, 36.00 for Sage phone service and 85.00 for my T-mobile. I am now spending about 60.00 for both landline and internet. DSL is just about as fast as it was with the cable modem. I see no difference actually. IF I went with Cingular instead of T- mobile I could save even more money but I am stuck in the middle of my contract with them. 

The point is it is easier to be legit and hook up a phone line whether it is a wireless phone jack or a direct phone line connect , then it is to fight the inevitable. Dish isn't going to back off of this for the forseeable future so it would behove everyone to go ahead and comply or change providers. 

Life is to short to worry about the little stuff ; It is all little stuff. Change what you can and accept what you can't.:soapbox:


----------



## CCarncross

I have a feeling after they weed out all teh bad eggs that are probably in the thousands, they will back off. The honest people just need to be patient and do what they can to comply instead of jumping up and down and screaming like 3 year olds...If you really cant deal with it, cancel your service and go with someone else


----------



## James Long

DoyleS said:


> although based on the poll only about 10% of us are being exposed to the audit team


FYI: The poll ran August 1st through 11th, 2005 - It was a snapshot.

It does seem that there are more complaints lately about the audit team. Perhaps efforts have stepped up since August. Perhaps the influx of new customers have reached the age where there are a lot of customers with receivers that have not "reported in" for several months.

Good news for the future: The next generation receivers with Dish Comm are working their way away from the multi-phone line connection problem - requiring only one Dish Comm receiver be connected to the phone line per household.

I don't like the heavy handed techniques that are being reported in this thread. But for now E* seems to be profiling accounts and those that fit the profile (apparently high $$$, many receivers, no phone lines) are being checked. Since complaining and name calling isn't going to stop the audit team, my best suggestion is to get out of the profile.

JL


----------



## zmark

CCarncross said:


> I have a feeling after they weed out all teh bad eggs that are probably in the thousands, they will back off. The honest people just need to be patient and do what they can to comply instead of jumping up and down and screaming like 3 year olds...If you really cant deal with it, cancel your service and go with someone else


They will never weed out all the offenders as long as they refuse to enforce the phone line rule AT INITIAL ACCOUNT ACTIVATION. They're perfectly happy to let people invest hundreds (or even thousands) in DISH equipemnt and service without requiring the phone line and only later try to enforce it. The customer can either totally rearrange their lives to suit DISH's whims, or have all that equipment rendered worthless.

As for why I'm ticked off about it, well I could use a 5th receiver, but I'm don't dare buy one lest I become a target for the audit team. DISH loses out on $60/year of pure profit from me becuase they're being jerks about this.


----------



## BoisePaul

Warning: Long post follows. May cause fatigue, indigestion, headaches, and in rare cases, seizures. Consult a physician if symptoms continue beyond the end of this thread.

Some very good friends of mine went through the audit last month and it was not a pleasant experience. This is the situation. They currently have a 942, a 311, and a 3000 (yep, it's a dinosaur), all connected to phone lines. We went to the "Punkin Chunkin" completion early last month near Lewes, DE in their RV. They decided it was time to put a dedicated receiver in the RV instead of going through the trouble of disconnecting one of the receivers in the house and going through the rather painful process of connecting it in the RV. Note that the RV has an auto-aim dish on the roof and they've had an RV waiver for a few years, just not a dedicated receiver for the RV. Well, to make things simple, we stopped at the local retailer (who we've both dealt with for years) the morning we left town to pick up a 311 which would find a permanent home in the RV. The retailer was even nice enough to do the activation while we sat in the shop's parking lot. At this point, life is good.

Seven hours later we're at the campground in DE and everything is great. This is Thursday evening. Friday we went to the event, came back to the campground before dinner, and the receiver is displaying a "Not authorized, Call DISH" message - have to assume that this is just a glitch. So, we call the regular 800 line and the CSR says that the account's been locked and transfers us to the audit team. Consider that this is only around 30 hours after the RV receiver had been activated. Audit team CSR wants RX ID, SC ID, SW Ver, and Location Code from all receivers, their usual demands. Tried to explain that we're currently in the RV and the only info we can provide is for the receiver in the RV as the other receivers are over 300 miles away. This is where the fun started. Audit guy flies into a rant about how what we're doing is illegal and how DISH will have to pay a $10000 fine to the FCC because of what we're doing and that he's going to permanently lock all of the receivers on the account - the ones at the house because we can't provide the info and the one in the RV because it's not connected to a phone line and we just admitted that it's not currently at the service address.

Now at this point we're getting fairly angry with Mr. Auditor. Tried to explain the concept of the RV waiver - no luck here, he says that "there's no such thing as an RV waiver" and such a thing would be illegal - we're attempting to commit fraud. Told him that currently, right now the form and the regulations are on dishnetwork.com. He says that simply isn't true. We ask him to repeat his name and to speak to his supervisor. He indicates that his name is not important and that we may not speak with anyone other than him, and that this call is over. Mr. Audit Guy hangs up.

We called back on the regular DISH 800 # and asked for the audit team, got transferred and got a different audit CSR. This one simply said that the notes for the account indicated that the customer admitted committing fraud (WHAT?) and that all recovers were permanently disabled. Nothing she could do about it. Goodbye.

Monday morning (back home in PA), an email gets sent to [email protected]* explaining exactly what happened. Two hours later, an executive CSR (for lack of a better term) calls by phone and apologizes profusely for the way the audit team behaved. She says that she has removed whatever "flags" were on the account and now shows it in good standing, however only the audit team can unlock the receivers and are refusing to do so (is the tail wagging the dog here?). She states that because of this, new receivers can be set up and she can schedule a time for an installer to come out. This sounds good, if not strange. She asks for a credit card to charge the $997 for the replacement receivers and the $99 installation fee. This warrants another WHAT? response. At this point my friend tells the exec CSR to close his account, he's switching providers. CSR says "I'll waive the $99 installation fee" as if that's going to make a difference. Friend indicates that this still is unacceptable, there's no way he's buying the receivers over again, especially the 942. CSR says that she'll stop billing on the account and have her supervisor look into the situation.

Next day, said supervisor calls and speaks to my friend’s wife, asks for full account of what has happened to this point. Supervisor puts wife on hold for around ten minutes, comes back and tells her to expect programming to be back on within an hour, gives number and direct extension to reach him if it does not or if there are any additional issues. Also gives 1 month programming credit. Finally something's happening in the right direction.

Service was restored within the hour to all receivers, including the one in the RV. However, talk about a frustrating experience. There was much talk of calling an attorney and my friend's wife was in tears at one point over the issue, afraid that the FCC would be coming to arrest them. Nobody deserves to be treated like that, especially not being accused of being a criminal. Had it been me personally, I probably would have pursued a lawsuit for defamation of character, but they were just glad to have it all be over. Unfortunately they are still paranoid about the "DISH police" to the point that there's an AC cord and phone line run to the RV while it's parked at the house just to make sure that the receiver can call out whenever it needs to.

Sorry about the long post, but I wanted to illustrate the extremely aggressive tactics being taken by the audit team even in cases where the customer has done nothing wrong. They treat people like and accuse them of being criminals. If I were DISH I'd be worried about having customers suffering from nervous conditions or committing suicide if the audit team continues along its current course.


----------



## Doggfather

Exactly.. all you people who sit here and say dont whine and dont complain etc etc, have you guys actually been auditted?!?! I am a loyal dish customer for the past 7 years, i always upgrade receivers as new stuff comes out, switches, dishes, lnb's you name it, and im being treated like a criminal, because they dont have my social security number and could not prove that i live where I live (which isn't my problem) as ssn's were not a requirement 7 years ago. 

The asked me profusely do you live next to this, or that or above this building... i'm under no obligation to tell you what color my house is or how large it is or who i live next to.... I was told that without my faxing in my utility bills that my account is flagged for one receiver only... With me, it was not just the no phone line (I have vonage and i find it does NOT work consistently, so i dont even bother trying to connect it to them all) it was also no proof of where i live via social security numbers etc.

Trust me, those of you who havent had this call yet, you cant appreciate how de-meaning it is  You pay your bills on time for 7 years, spend lots of money, and as someone else said they are never unhappy to sell you the equiptment, and then they turn around and acost you for total nonsense/BS. They need some modern equiptment, why are they fussing around with modems, why does the new equiptment not have ethernet ports that stay in communication with Dish regularily instead of this nonsense of an cient dial-in technology. They should atleast be an option for this in upcoming receivers or mods for the expansion ports to do this etc... or USB. Wouldnt it be much simpler!?! It's been a few days since my call from them, but man, I am still upset about this, they have no right to treat honest people like that... JD customer service award my rear... !!! If they get that again this year, something is wrong with this picture...

-Doggfather


----------



## AllieVi

BoisePaul said:


> ... Audit guy flies into a rant about how what we're doing is illegal and how DISH will have to pay a $10000 fine to the FCC because of what we're doing ...


This claim may or may not be true, of course, but it suggests something that may be the root cause of the harsh tactics.

As others have noted here, DISH has always played looser with the rules than DirecTV. In the early days, DISH seemed to make it easier to get out-of-market stations and didn't appear to care where your receivers were located. How many threads/posts have appeared on this board about "moving" to be able to receive stations that wouldn't otherwise be allowed? It was an open secret that such things were easy with DISH, because they essentially flaunted the rules as long as customers paid their bills.

You may recall that DISH essentially thumbed its nose at the FCC(?) ruling that all channels had to be on a single dish.

The change in enforcement attitude is a real turn-around for this company. It's entirely possible that DISH is being forced to verify locations and its performance is being overseen by the FCC. The fact that the audit team seems to be out of the normal channels of corporate control suggests to me that something really unusual is going on here.

DirecTV has always played more closely to the rules. Maybe that's why it isn't having the same problems now.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

IF Dish starts checking where people are really out , then there will be a whole lot of people that will be unhappy. I 'm sorry but if they have that much time on their hands to call and ask what house you live next to, and what color it is etc - that is bull****. I think the audit team needs to have some oversight from Dish 's corporate office. ALL CALL SHOULD BE RECORDED and then Dish's executive office needs to "audit " the audit team for violations of customer service agreements by the auditors. IF they are rude in the least on the phone they need to be FIRED! I would think that chasing long term customers away by rude , overbearing and dishonest , unfriendly tactics would not be what Charlie wants. It is time for some checks and balances here. 

Dish are you listening?


----------



## Alpaca Bill

BoisePaul said:


> Warning: Long post follows. May cause fatigue, indigestion, headaches, and in rare cases, seizures. Consult a physician if symptoms continue beyond the end of this thread.
> 
> Some very good friends of mine went through the audit last month and it was not a pleasant experience. This is the situation. They currently have a 942, a 311, and a 3000 (yep, it's a dinosaur), all connected to phone lines. We went to the "Punkin Chunkin" completion early last month near Lewes, DE in their RV. They decided it was time to put a dedicated receiver in the RV instead of going through the trouble of disconnecting one of the receivers in the house and going through the rather painful process of connecting it in the RV. Note that the RV has an auto-aim dish on the roof and they've had an RV waiver for a few years, just not a dedicated receiver for the RV. Well, to make things simple, we stopped at the local retailer (who we've both dealt with for years) the morning we left town to pick up a 311 which would find a permanent home in the RV. The retailer was even nice enough to do the activation while we sat in the shop's parking lot. At this point, life is good.....Sorry about the long post, but I wanted to illustrate the extremely aggressive tactics being taken by the audit team even in cases where the customer has done nothing wrong. They treat people like and accuse them of being criminals. If I were DISH I'd be worried about having customers suffering from nervous conditions or committing suicide if the audit team continues along its current course.


This sounds almost exactly like my situation except my 301 is still being held hostage and my email to [email protected]* was never replied to. I would have been completely satisfied, angry but satisfied, if my outcome had been as "good" as yours.


----------



## derwin0

Doggfather said:


> i'm under no obligation to tell you what color my house is or how large it is or who i live next to.... I was told that without my faxing in my utility bills that my account is flagged for one receiver only...


By any chance, did you "move" at one time? Sounds to me like they were suspecting you weren't at the service address on record.


----------



## Billcrates

AllieVi said:


> This claim may or may not be true, of course, but it suggests something that may be the root cause of the harsh tactics.
> 
> As others have noted here, DISH has always played looser with the rules than DirecTV. In the early days, DISH seemed to make it easier to get out-of-market stations and didn't appear to care where your receivers were located. How many threads/posts have appeared on this board about "moving" to be able to receive stations that wouldn't otherwise be allowed? It was an open secret that such things were easy with DISH, because they essentially flaunted the rules as long as customers paid their bills.
> 
> You may recall that DISH essentially thumbed its nose at the FCC(?) ruling that all channels had to be on a single dish.
> 
> The change in enforcement attitude is a real turn-around for this company. It's entirely possible that DISH is being forced to verify locations and its performance is being overseen by the FCC. The fact that the audit team seems to be out of the normal channels of corporate control suggests to me that something really unusual is going on here.
> 
> DirecTV has always played more closely to the rules. Maybe that's why it isn't having the same problems now.


I think this may be one of the driving factors in the audit teams charter. Getting account stackers should be easy if the audit team is just doing location checks. The other items of searching court house records on house sizes, faxing utility bills to verify locations and RV authorization revocations out of thin air seem to indicate something out of kilter for a large company . The large companies typically do not want adverse publicity or potiential litigation problems as they are percived to have deep pockets . This is not a typical problem. This audit team coupled with the HD lite problem could potientially be a longer term problem. Any takers on why E* is going this route...


----------



## Spruceman

I plan on sending an e-mail to Comcast, Cox, the NCTA, et al.. referring them to this thread, and suggest it might be useful to their anti-satellite campaign advertising. 

Dish has gone too far. Kinda like an enemy of my enemy is my friend (at least an ad hoc friend). Kinda worked when Verizon was notified after Comcast had cut off internet subscribers for going over (unspecified) download limits, and Vzn used the fact in some of their ads. Made Comcast ease up right away.

Come time for the next generation of receivers, Directv will get all my business..except for a 1-receiver minimum E* acct for their better offering of public interest channels... a far cry from the c $1,550/yr they get from me now.


----------



## tafische

OK - went through the wonderful audit tonight... the lady was "nice", but I felt like I had a bright light on me....didnt really appreicate it. Direct is looking better and better...I wont get into the rest or it will make me pissed again!

Two Questions though:

1. The lady said everything was updated on my account and I still have service. Does this mean I passed with no problem or do they review and turn off later?

2. How often am I going to have to go through this?


----------



## Mike D-CO5

As long as you don't have your receivers hooked up to a phone line , quite often. If you didn't pass the audit they would of turned off all your receivers but one.


----------



## peano

Dish seems to be upsetting a lot of customers in order to catch the odd account stacker. I could understand this if their signal was secure, but since the yellow card has been hacked for months, I just don't understand all the effort they are putting into auditing. If people want to steal, they are going to go for all the channels including PPV and not just America's Everything Pak.


----------



## Doggfather

Peano,
EXACTLY!!! Why doesnt dish worry about losing money from not securing their signal versus those of us who pay the friggin massive bills. I pay about 110-115$ (before losing a receiver) a month. Thats a lot of cash in a year to them! i believe the reason they want address confirmation is due to having no social security number on record, dialing in from vonage etc. 
I agree that someone should let comcast and others like FIOS etc know about this treatment. Dish is doign themselves an injustice big time by hassling people. I gave the battle up for now as my 942 is enough for me to do 2 tv's, but when the day comes i need a second receiverm if dish gives me *ANY* hassle about getting it back on I will ask the persons name and email charlie saying that they caused him to lose a long term customer over this nonsense. 
Times have changed, people use the internet to order ppv, two way communications are now possible via satellite even, broadband penetration is higher than ever... why is it Chrlie's only trick for ensuring we arent account stacking is a bloody modem... and if you cant use it due to stuff like vonage/voip issues or having a cell phone only then your treated like a thief and hassled all the time by the audit team/ dish nazi's! Remind we why we pay in the long run for their technical short comings again?

-Doggfather


----------



## stonecold

On comments on why Charlie is not going spending money on securing the signal he is. 


Only the security on the orginal N2 yellow card that is dnasp 101 were hacked there are no newer versions of the n2 cards hacked. 


Charlie just sent me 2 new Yellow cards to replace 2 orginal dnasp101 yellow cards which can be compermised.

So he is spending money on both.


----------



## harsh

How 'bout they just add code to the software to have each receiver call in periodically (or on demand) and identify itself. If the ANI information from the 800 call doesn't line up with the registered phone number, then they can launch and audit. In this way, they wouldn't risk annoying people who are operating according to the terms and conditions.

I'm sure there will be a few people who claim that this is an invasion of privacy, but I can't imagine how it might stand up in court if all Dish finds out is that you're either fulfilling or violating your contract with them. It is also much less intrusive than casting a spectre of doubt over your relationship via a voice contact.


----------



## Bill R

harsh said:


> How 'bout they just add code to the software to have each receiver call in periodically (or on demand) and identify itself.


The software already has that code. The problem is that people don't plug in the phone line.


----------



## aquaman67

Jawa78 said:


> Only the security on the orginal N2 yellow card that is dnasp 101 were hacked there are no newer versions of the n2 cards hacked.


I read on another board that the 102 cards have now been hacked too. So much for the better mouse trap...


----------



## peano

Jawa78 said:


> Only the security on the orginal N2 yellow card that is dnasp 101 were hacked there are no newer versions of the n2 cards hacked.
> 
> Charlie just sent me 2 new Yellow cards to replace 2 orginal dnasp101 yellow cards which can be compermised.


You are the first person I have heard of that is swapping yellow cards for new yellow cards.

As for the 102s, they are also hacked now as aquaman67 mentions. They need to swap 102s now too.

I still think the audit department's attitude is terrible. I only have three receivers active right now, so I doubt I will get the call.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

What is even more frustrating with this whole Audit Team debacle is there does not seem to be a company-wide policy.

On the Chuck Chat on Monday there was a question asked about when ordering a PPV event if it is only available on a single receiver or on all of your receivers. Charlie said all your receivers if you have a phone line connected otherwise it would only be on a single receiver (as long as you ordered it online or via the phone...if done via your remote it only goes to that receiver).

On the new dual-tuner receivers (522/625) you get charged (NOT deactivated) if you do not have it connected. 

My point being IF Charlie is going to authorize the Audit Team to deactivate receivers/accounts for NOT having a phoneline connected then his comments should not contain any option for not having one connected.

So which is it Charlie, are they absolutely required (per the Audit Team) or are they only required for PPV or to avoid an extra fee on dual-tuner receivers????


----------



## BoisePaul

Ya know, I have to wonder if the tactics taken by the audit team don't have something to do with reception of out-of-market locals not authorized by the local affiliates. I know that SHREVA didn't change how RV waivers are handled, and that the original RV waivers provisions (in SHIVA, maybe) were written in such a way that could make having the RV unit on the same account as the residential receivers somewhat shaky. I guess if you look at it from the standpoint that having an RV waiver and using it to receive distant nets could be problematic as the distant nets would be availableto every receiver on the account. If any of those are residential receivers (not in an authorized RV), then I can see where it might be a violation to show the distant nets on those receivers without proper waivers from the local affiliates, which are sometimes difficult or impossible to get. Maybe that's where the whole FCC fine idea came from. I'm not implying that this is the motivation behind the audit team's actions, but it might explain their reaction to the RV waiver statements that some of us have seen. On the same token, account stacking where a receiver is taken outside of the DMA for which locals are subscribed would also be in violation of the same legislation. That has to be a fairly small percent of account stackers, especially with spotbeam limitations, but it could also be a contributing factor.

I don't think that this is really a phoneline/no phoneline issue. The phoneline merely eliminates any need to check compliance. I think the big mystery is what is the reason behind this need to so agressively check compliance. I doubt that many account stackers are going to sign up for individual accounts, so I'd imagine that the audit team actually produces a net loss of subscribers, not a gain. There has to be something else going on that we don't know about.


----------



## psycaz

Has anyone tried to get through during the Charlie Chats to ask Charlie about it?
Just curious.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Typically veteran/long-time customers do not get thru. Probably because Charlie doesn't want to get blindsided by the truth. If you notice most callers are new customers of under a year and they are still "on the honeymoon" with Dish. I think the screeners filter out the rest of us.

In the past I have emailed questions prior to and during the Chat and not a single one has been read or even responded to. I have tried to get answers to issues with the 7100/7200s, StarBand, and 921 issues.


----------



## stonecold

aquaman67 said:


> I read on another board that the 102 cards have now been hacked too. So much for the better mouse trap...


They did not send me 102s


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Someone raised an interesting point... Maybe the folks who are being audited have something else in common besides the lack of a phone line connection.

I wonder... how many of the audited folks are ones who say they live in one place but actually live in another so they can get local channels... the infamous "moving" scenario?

Or perhaps there is something else common to the thus far audited accounts.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

That might have made sense but my move was within the same DMA so therefore we get the same locals. I started with Dish in Nov 96 in Downers Grove, then Oak Brook Terrace in 97, then Glen Ellyn in 98, then Aurora in 99, then Elburn in 02, and then in July we moved to LaPorte, IN but all of these cities are within the same Chicago/NW Indiana DMA so locals are the same. Each time we moved we did the same thing...we notified Dish that on XXX we would be moving to XXXXXXX. If we knew the new phone numbers we would tell them the # and the active date. If we did not know the #s we would call Dish as soon as we got them installed.

Interesting theory though.


----------



## BoisePaul

Alpaca Bill said:


> That might have made sense but my move was within the same DMA...


But it is likely that you had distant nets because of your RV waiver, and if there's a legal issue with receiving out-of-market locals (Distant Nets) in your residence, that could still have been part of the reason. Of course, you probably chose the Chicago locals which also happens to be your home DMA, so taking a closer look this still wouldn't have been a violation (if that's what this is all about). Of course, the audit team probably would not have taken the time to consider this.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

BoisePaul said:


> But it is likely that you had distant nets because of your RV waiver, and if there's a legal issue with receiving out-of-market locals (Distant Nets) in your residence, that could still have been part of the reason. Of course, you probably chose the Chicago locals which also happens to be your home DMA, so taking a closer look this still wouldn't have been a violation (if that's what this is all about). Of course, the audit team probably would not have taken the time to consider this.


You are correct I did have the Chicago locals for my choice on the RV Waiver. Prior to those being an option I did have the East & West feeds both for the RV and the house for a while before they offered the Chicago locals, at which time I changed everything and canceled the East & West feeds. According to the Audit Team the 301 is locked because they "discovered" it was in a different location than my house, which is illegal (supplying programming to 2 different areas at the same time). But then why have a RV exemption since the purpose of an RV is to travel away from your house. We no longer own an RV (it's hard to travel with 4 kids all under the age of 5 and our new farm has animals that need to be tended to everyday) and I offered to fax over the sales papers proving so and they still refuse to unlock the 301.

I'm not upset with Dish for performing audits. I am upset with they way they chose to perform the audits. In their eyes you are a crook until proven innocent and they treat you like a third rate citizen. If when my wife explained her situation they said okay please have your husband call back by such and such a date and time, I wouldn't have had an issue with the situation. They are just very unwilling to accept the fact that there are times people are too busy to deal with them. They seem to think the world revolves around them and everything must be performed according to their schedule. I've had my credit card company call and leave a very important message that I was supposed to return their call asap but due to my schedule (I own and run 3 businesses, have 4 kids, and volunteer at our church) I was not able to return their call for a day or two. This is unacceptable in the Audit Team's eyes. It must be done now and if you can't do it now they turn you off and then grill you even more when you are able to call them back (demoted to less than a third rate citizen). We were also never given the opurtunity to read off the location IDs or anything. They needed us to force all the recievers to dial in while on the phone with them so they could see that process happen. I even had one of the reps tell me that the locaion id doesn't verify anything and cannot be used for this audit.


----------



## DoyleS

If I got audited today, I would probably fail. I have two receivers (6000 and 508) mounted in an equipment rack and both have phone connections. I have a second 508 which is not connected to a phone line in the living room that is currently disconnected along with its monitor since the Christmas tree is now in that position. I only have 3 lines coming in from the DP34 so there would be no way to hook up that 508 receiver in any reasonable amount of time. Best I could do would be to email pictures of the 508 and the Christmas tree. Or, can you imagine getting audited during a Christmas party?

..Doyle


----------



## Alpaca Bill

I offered to send them or email them a video of me walking around my house and showing them all 5 of the receivers hooked up but they did not take me seriously.


----------



## Doggfather

bahahah to the video of your receivers  Yeah my parents just got audited too.. what nonsense this is. I just told them sign up for dish, its great, good stuff, been with them for eons, they get 3 nice receivers, they have a voip phone too (issues dialing on sometimes on these) and bam, one month and they got it up the rear from charlie.. off went two.. gee i wonder if they will kepp their business with him.. they told me cable looks more and more promising to them after this... Charlie is some bunch of clowns... they are so gonna lose customers over this nonsense... im really thinking that Direct or cable sounds great right about now...

-Doggfather


----------



## HIPAR

I scanned through some of these posts because I was curious about what auditing is about. I'm not a E*customer.

How does one share an account with a neighbor? I guess the obvious way is to route a cable from your dish to a receiver box in the neighbor's house. Taking that a step farther, route an extension of your phone line over to your neighbor's house. E* Computer calls, both boxes can respond. If you still get an audit, you will need to be creative about getting that location code. 

Somewhat curious, if you have multiple boxes connected to your line, how do they autoanswer without interfering with each other?

--- CHAS


----------



## Bill R

HIPAR said:


> How does one share an account with a neighbor? I guess the obvious way is to route a cable from your dish to a receiver box in the neighbor's house.
> 
> Somewhat curious, if you have multiple boxes connected to your line, how do they autoanswer without interfering with each other?
> 
> --- CHAS


Chas,

That is not how it works. Each person has his own dish. And DISH does not call a reciever (via the phone line). The receivers call DISH (via the phone line) and report their information. When the receivers don't call or the receivers on one account call from multiple phone lines that is when an audit is likely to occur.

By the way, DISH isn't the only company with this problem. DirecTV has an even bigger problem than DISH mainly because they don't limit the number of receivers on an account. Recently a group of postal workers were busted in Miami and some of them had 20 (or more) receivers on their accounts.


----------



## scooper

HIPAR said:


> I scanned through some of these posts because I was curious about what auditing is about. I'm not a E*customer.
> 
> How does one share an account with a neighbor? I guess the obvious way is to route a cable from your dish to a receiver box in the neighbor's house. Taking that a step farther, route an extension of your phone line over to your neighbor's house. E* Computer calls, both boxes can respond. If you still get an audit, you will need to be creative about getting that location code.
> 
> Somewhat curious, if you have multiple boxes connected to your line, how do they autoanswer without interfering with each other?
> 
> --- CHAS


Nothing says you have to use the same dish to be on the same account. So, you could use 1 dish pre receiver if you wanted to , even on the same house. 2 different houses - each uses their own dish.

As far as all receivers on the same phoneline - no problem, because the receivers NEVER answer incoming calls - they get their signal to call via the dish, and the modems are used for OUTGOING calls only. In fact - it is DESIREABLE that all receivers call from the same phonenumber.


----------



## James Long

HIPAR said:


> How does one share an account with a neighbor? I guess the obvious way is to route a cable from your dish to a receiver box in the neighbor's house.


Or install a dish at their house. Dishes are really cheap when you're only paying $5 per month for the programming. Then have your 'neighbor' be your brother across the country. Not having all the receivers in the same household is simply the beginning of "account stacking".

E* wrote the phone line rules years ago because people were doing these tricks. For some reason enforcement seems to have been stepped up more lately - or at least we are hearing more about it. The amazing posts in this thread are the people who complain about the audit team and admit to breaking the rules in the same post.

That's not to say there are not innocent people being caught up in the dragnet.

JL


----------



## harsh

Bill R said:


> The software already has that code. The problem is that people don't plug in the phone line.


My understanding is that is why they require a "professional install" and that includes a phone jack where needed.


----------



## gdarwin

harsh said:


> My understanding is that is why they require a "professional install" and that includes a phone jack where needed.


I had a "professional install" last January and the installers completely blew off the phone line along with not grounding anything...

I have since hooked up each receiver to the phone line and grounded the system...

I hope to never go through this ordeal.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

James Long said:


> The amazing posts in this thread are the people who complain about the audit team and admit to breaking the rules in the same post.


I'm always reminded of the folks who get caught downloading illegal MP3s and then try to claim it is their right to have copies of the music. Some people just don't get it.

There are laws that people break, like speeding... and then complain if they get caught... The two obvious options are, don't break the law OR pay the price without complaining if/when you get caught.

Same for the phone line... My installer, way back when my stuff was installed, told me both truths... One being that Dish says you must connect to a phone line and it must be the same phone number (if you have more than one line in the house)... and two, that technically the receiver will function just fine without the phone line as long as you don't order PPV movies via the receiver remote control.

I don't order PPV, and I'm not cheating anyone... so I don't have either of my receivers connected to a phone line... though I actually could connect them if push came to shove... and if I ever get an audit call, I will be able to give whatever information they are asking for and I'll consider that my "wake up" call and connect the receivers from that point forward.


----------



## scooper

I'll go you one better - a long time ago, the modem went out on my 4900 receiver. The way I found this out - we ordered a PPV movie that would not show up on our bill. When I called Dish to ask about this and when the replacement card came out - all record of that PPV went away. 

Yes, I'm still using that 4900 - more as our 2nd receiver now that we have a 510. Haven't ordered any more PPV on it (we use the 510 for that). Both receivers ARE physically connected to the phoneline , for all the good it will do the 4900. If I would get the audit team calling - we would spend more time looking for the remotes than anything else - change channels and read off the Location IDs .

It would be a real blessing if E* would get with the program and start including ethernet / wireless so you didn't need a "phoneline" - compliance would be even easier - have all units "phone home" at the same time and compare IP addresses - they should all be the same, no ? Of course - this would break when IPv6 comes out....


----------



## James Long

scooper said:


> It would be a real blessing if E* would get with the program and start including ethernet / wireless so you didn't need a "phoneline" - compliance would be even easier -


That is what DISH Comm is for ... only one receiver needs to be connected and the others report in to it. DISH Comm is available on the new ViP models and the 411. E* is getting with the program ...

The ethernet port isn't used (yet) on the ViPs ... but it will go a long way toward compliance when the receivers can see each other in a household.

JL


----------



## Spruceman

Soon Charlie will be subsidizing an informant program in the local schools...telling the kids how to turn in their parents to the authorities if they have "moved" and are getting local news from a distant city. God knows, we shouldn't know what's going on in other parts of the country -- for that we have the major networks -- the same nets that were embedded (in bed with) the search for weapons of mass destruction. Freedom of information, my butt! When will they start blocking access to out of state web sites and call it copyright law?


----------



## AllieVi

James Long said:


> ...The ethernet port isn't used (yet) on the ViPs ... but it will go a long way toward compliance when the receivers can see each other in a household.


Future technologies can, of course, solve problems for future receivers. But the improvements will not affect the installed base of tens of millions that will be in use for years. Except for new customers, most of us will have a mix of old and new technologies for a very long time.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

scooper said:


> It would be a real blessing if E* would get with the program and start including ethernet / wireless so you didn't need a "phoneline" - compliance would be even easier - have all units "phone home" at the same time and compare IP addresses - they should all be the same, no ? Of course - this would break when IPv6 comes out....


On the one hand, this is a cool thought... someone like me could plug into the internet with my DSL and have them connect that way.

But not everyone has DSL or Cable modem... If they had dial-up internet, then they could probably hook up to the phone line...

But I think requiring an Internet connection for a TV box would be just exchanging one problem (phone line) for another.

I have phone and internet, so I'm good both ways... but I know people who are perfectly happy with TV and no internet, and they use Cellular phones without landline... so those folks would still be out of luck.


----------



## James Long

I'm hoping that once DISH Comm arrives the phone line problem will go away and they can write a script that says "as long as your receivers see each other they don't need a phone line - if they can't see each other only the primary receiver will work". As written the plan for DISH Comm have the primary receiver needing to be connected to a phone line. I hope they waive that without requiring IP or another "phone home" connection.

JL


----------



## Bill R

From what I understand about DISH Comm is that it will only work with the upcoming new receivers and older (current) receivers will still require a phone line. It looks like DISH is going to have a problem (not being able to check the location of the receiver that don't have a phone line plugged in) for many years. 

And DISH Comm is not really a good solution. More and more people are dropping their landland everyday. The local phone company lost 3 percent of their landline customers last year and says that the number will double this year.


----------



## James Long

DISH Comm is a good response to scooper's thoughts. Yes, it will take a lot of receiver swaps to get the entire system on compatable receivers, but the issue is that E* is moving in the direction that scooper mentioned not that it is a long road.

JL


----------



## Doggfather

I said this many posts ago... While there are increasing numbers of people forgoing a landline for cell or VoiP, the one thing that fewer and fewer people going forward will more than likely have is an internet connection of some sorts... It makes much more sense to go with that as a method of communicating with dish. It would help them in so many ways. They wouldnt lose legit customers and they could likely enforce illegal activities with much more ease due to active two way communications! IT would seem much more intelligent for them to make this move or atleast allow for this option on all new receivers asap. James while i know your stating the rules which are of course the bottom line, i think you are ignoring the fact that many people DONT have land lines these days and it should not make us crooks in dishes eyes... why should we have to pay for a service that has nothing to do with Charlie just to keep his service.. it really doesnt seem fair, regardless of charlies bottom line or not. You should always as a company work with the customer not against him... Isn't the age old saying, that the customer is right? If he wants to use more modern communication methods, should you not allow for that option atleast? I would be happy to pay for new receivers that did this to keep me "legit" and allow for more than one receiver again!!!

-Doggfather


----------



## lacruz

When they do an Audit and you give them the Location IDs from your recievers, can they actually tell what city and state that the receivers are located in?


----------



## stonecold

lacruz said:


> When they do an Audit and you give them the Location IDs from your recievers, can they actually tell what city and state that the receivers are located in?


No,

The location ID is based of a math fromula involing your recievers R00 number and the time of day.


----------



## aquaman67

And the location ID changes every ten minutes on the 10s. 00, :10, :20, :30, ect)

You'd have to had seen the screen with the last ten minutes unless someone knows the algorithm and would like to share.


----------



## lacruz

Thanks for the replies. Yes, all receivers are in the same house. I was just wondering for all of those people who "moved" and their physical address is different from the service address on their account.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Okay here is an update on my locked 301 as of today.

I received a call from a supervisor in the audit team in response to my email to [email protected]. I knew it was not going to be a good call when she opened by just reiterating that my choices for my 301 are 1) activate on it's own account or 2) sell to a new Dish customer AND that person needs to activate the 301 as their primary receiver. So to make a long story very short, 2 hours later there was no change to my situation. Here is what I did find out during the call though.

When a customer's account is sent to the audit team, you are officially being investigated by Dish for stealing programming. The audit process as it has been discussed here is only part of the process but it is the only part that the customer is made aware of. They do gather other information but she said they could not share any of that info with me. WTF?!?!? Once Dish has made a decision it cannot be changed (I heard that at least 1000 times).

She told me that when I was first contacted back in July it was since my receivers had not called into Dish for several months even years for some of them. She then said during that first call they were told by my wife that we had a receiver in an RV and therefore in their opinion we were stealing their programming (LONG story here for a different post). I was told at that time that I could hook all 5 of my receivers up to a landline and call them back and if all passed the audit at that time they would be reactivated. Due to us moving from our house in IL to our new house in IN I told them that we would not have phone service at the new house for 2-3 weeks per what Verizon had told me (they needed to run a main trunk line to our property since we were having 5 lines and DSL installed and the current system did not have that capacity). The rep told me that he would activate my 2 921s for 2 weeks and wanted me to call in to keep him updated on the Verizon progress. He said that as long as I keep them updated my account would remain unlocked (okay, I can accept that...he was being reasonable and fair). At the end of the 2 weeks I called in to update him but he was not in (day off) but since he had made a note on my account that only he could deal with my account the rep I talked to that day said he could not do anything and told me to call back the next day. I asked him to leave a message for Brian telling him that I had called to update him on the Verizon situation and that I wouldn't able to call back the next day since that was the day of our big move and I wwould be too busy packing/unpacking and driving the truck, trailers and cars we were using to move. I was calling him to inform him that Verizon had called me and told me there was going to be another 2-3 weeks delay since all of the installers for our area had been sent to OH and Eastern IN to aid in the major repair of the system due to the huge storms that rolled thru that area and took out the service. According to this woman today there is no such record of that call. She also stated that yes I was given 2 weeks to come into compliance and they did not hear from me for over a month. Since it had taken so long for me to call back they had recinded the oportunity to reactivate the 301. I told her that I did in fact call in 2 weeks after the first audit and I tried to update the information they had but that Brian had the day off. Appearently the rep I had talked to that day made no record of my call. I asked if I could fax her a copy of my cell bill showing my call history to the 888# of the audit team or could she search the audit teams phone logs to prove that I did in fact call as I had been told to do but it just hadn't been recorded on my account. I said that would show I was in compliance with their requests and therefore my receiver should be allowed to be reactivated (since I was following their rules for reactivation). She said that they did not want any info from me, they had all they needed to make their decision. I asked so even though some of that info is wrong, and I can provide proof of that, Dish will not look at it and admit that they may have made a mistake. She just kept repeating that I needed a new account for that receiver. So we go back and forth several times and she would agree with me to a point but then when I would ask the clincher question, she would revert back to the "you have been given the ONLY option...you need a new account for that receiver" line. So the reasoning for this 301 being locked went from "it was proven to be in an RV" to "you didn't call us back for over a month" to "the other info we collected proves you were receiving programming at 2 different locations". I asked her about the last one since I had argued and disagreed with the other two and this one was a new one. She said they had "proof" that my receivers had called in from 2 different phone numbers. I told her that that was absolutely impossible, without a doubt since my equipment had NEVER been connected at different locations (other than the RV which they knew). She said that according to their records 2 of my receivers had called in from 630-XXX-XXXX (my old home phone number) and that 2 of my receivers had called in from a 219 number but she did not provide me with that number. I told her that the 630# was my old house number and it had been disconnected back in July and that the 219 area code is the area we now live in. I asked if it was 219-XXX-XXXX. She asked what number that was...It is my new house number, you know the one you called me at and are talking to me on...our records do not show that number on your account. How did she call me then?!?!? She even told me that they did not show anything stating we had moved to IN. I asked how that was possible since we had notified Dish about the new address both prior to and after the Audit and we receive a bill every month from Dish at the IN address. I have spoken to the audit team several times since our move here and have provided them with my 219 number so they could access my account. I have also had 2 replacement 508s shipped to me in IN from the audit team. She didn't have an answer but said that I am obviously stealing their programming since my receivers were calling in from 2 numbers. I told her I could provide her proof that 1) the old phone line had been disconnected at the end of July and 2) That my new phonelines had not been installed until the middle of September proving that it was/is an IMPOSSIBLITY for that situation to occur. I also told her I could provide her the receipt from the Dish installer showing the date of the actual Dish and switch install at the new house. I own my dishes/switches and they move with me...since DishMover does not duplicate your setup from the old house to the new house. "You need a new account for that receiver". It was obvious that I was not going to get anywhere with the truth and logic with her so I hung up completely pissed and at a lost for words.

These are my problems with Dish and this process:

1) You are ALREADY considered a thief prior to them calling you no matter what that case is (i.e. bad modem, length of customer standing, bad connection, no phone line at all, actually stealing, etc).
2) They collect information about you (and who knows what else) without your knowledge or consent and will not share this information with you at all.
3) Even if you can prove that some of this above information is wrong, they are not interested in correcting it or reversing a decision that was made based upon that misinformation.
4) I did everything they asked me to do (prior to and after the audit) and I still end up with the same decision/punishment...a locked receiver.
5) Dish appears to be an 8 headeded monster with none of the arms knowing what the other arms are saying/doing. The RUA does in fact say that all receivers need to be connected to a phoneline but their installers do not enforce this, their activation department does not enforce this, Charlie says during his chats he/you can bring your receiver to his/your lake home (2nd location), Dish allows you to add an RV waiver (for the distant networks) to your main account without saying anything about needing a seperate account for RVs, Dish sales allows you to purchase a receiver expressly for the use in an RV without any disclaimers (i.e. on it's own account) and then another arm, the audit team, locks your account and receivers for not following the rules and tells you to follow these steps to unlock them, which I did, but then they still end up locking your receivers with NO real chance of being able to do anything with them. Dish, plain and simple, is talking out both sides of their mouth!
6) The business policy(s) (most of which are not written according to this supervisor) of saying that once a receiver is locked it can only be sold to a new customer AND used as their primary receiver is, in effect, rendering it completely useless, is totally unfair and unrealistic (by any rational person). I would not have an issue with this if they allowed me to sell it to ANYONE (ie. new or current customer) and allow them to activate on their account. The reality is I am NEVER going to find a new customer that wants to buy my used 301 to be used as their PRIMARY receiver. It is well known that Dish offers their new customers the best deals for equipment. What person that wants Dish is not going to take advantage of one of the new customer promos to get new & FREE equipment?!?!?! Now in reality the 301 is only $100 and I purchased it in Nov 2001 so I have gotten my use out of it but the point is Dish's business policy makes it virtually impossible to fulfill the only option they provide. When I asked if I could just send them the 301 and have it removed/released from my account, she said no. How does that make any sense by any definition of the word?!?!!?!?!?

I would prove my point with my checkbook, as some people have pointed out, IF there was an EQUAL alternative. But the reality is that Direct has lousy HD and Comcast's equipment is not even close (DVR-wise) and they are more expensive. Not to mention all the money I have sunk on purchasing my Dish equipment. So I am "forced" to stay with them until an equivalent alternative is presented. I am hopeful that Verizon's FIOS TV will be made available in my area in the NEAR future. When it is I am switching and not looking back. I have been with Dish since their inception in '96 and have spent thousands (nearing $18K :nono2 of dollars with them. I have touted Dish for the entire 9 years, even when I had equipment that was severe garbage like the original DishPlayer (7100) and it's replacement the 7200, or their attempt at broadband...StarBand, or their empty promises and mass failure/experimentation with the 921, or Dish's reluctance to adapt to the reality that land lines are archaeic and obsolete. This blind backing ends today. I am going to tell everyone that will listen how Dish really treats it's customers.

I personally WAS NOT THEN NOR WILL I EVER steal programming. I was playing by their rules and then they punish me for breaking the new rules without telling me of the rule change. This is WRONG AND UNETHICAL!

Let me wrap up by saying again, I am not upset that Dish is performing audits. It is the way they perform them, the way they treat you during them, their lack of consistency of enforcement and their total disregard of the truth that has me boiling!


----------



## BobMurdoch

I have 5 receivers active on my account. Two are plugged in, the other three are in rooms that don't have phone jacks. The original installer told me in 2000 he could add wireless jacks for $100 a pop and I said no thanks, I'll take my chances. 

The audit team called me when I was out of town on business late April of this year. They called on a Wednesday. Since I was out of town and could not call them back, they evidently disconeected my receivers on Thursday. My inlaws, who had been babysitting my kids told me that all of my receivers were not working except my primary 921.

I called Dish to correct the situation from California (I live in NJ), and they wanted me to read them the receiver IDs. I told them I would return on Sunday and give it to them. The guy sounded unimpressed and hung up after saying OK. I call back on Sunday, but they say that they only have Bankers hours. I come home on lunch on Monday and call in. After 15 minutes of running from receiver to receiver and reading off numbers, he seems satisfied and has them reactivated. I thank him and then that's it.

No horror stories, although I wish they wopuld have given me a week to respond to their liking instead of arbitrarily killing all my receivers for the weekend. Happy endings are possible, but I was friendly and tried to be understanding while explaining my situation. I even offered to fax him copies of my boarding passes to prove I was out of town on business like I stated.


----------



## zmark

In all these audits horror stories, the one thing I've never understood is why DISH doesn't just terminate these accounts completey. All this nonsense about deactivating certain receivers seems like a complete waste of time.

Anyway, this all makes me seriously rethink ever paying over $300 for a receiver. Seems like a far too risky investment these days.


----------



## DoyleS

The only good news for Alpaca Bill is that it is only a 301 caught in lockout. The receiver may be useful to someone who wants to activate a single service like SkyAngel. They do not get the new customer benefits since they are not actually signing up for Dish services. Not sure if the same is true for all of the foreign language channels. Some are subscribed to those only so they might be interested in a single 301. Even so, I can't imagine it is worth more than $30-$40 on the ebay market. 

..Doyle


----------



## Alpaca Bill

DoyleS said:


> The only good news for Alpaca Bill is that it is only a 301 caught in lockout. The receiver may be useful to someone who wants to activate a single service like SkyAngel. They do not get the new customer benefits since they are not actually signing up for Dish services. Not sure if the same is true for all of the foreign language channels. Some are subscribed to those only so they might be interested in a single 301. Even so, I can't imagine it is worth more than $30-$40 on the ebay market.
> 
> ..Doyle


Actually the 301 is locked and they will not release it from my account unless it is setup on a new account, either mine or someone else. Since Dish refuses to release the 301 from my account, even if I send it to them to keep (which I do not understand at all ), my whole account remains locked in the audit dept (so they can monitor any and all changes to my account). This is a major PITA since no one but the audit team can even see any info on my account so I HAVE to call the audit team first to get my account temporarily "unlocked" so that a tech or regular CSR can do anything to my account (i.e. check a billing question, tech issues with any of the receivers, etc). It just adds another hoop to jump thru which is totally ridiculous, IMHO but that is Dish's business policy (i.e. not written and not something that we accept by activating our service...it's just something they do).

Oh and the supervisor from yesterday claims that the RUA has been the same since it's inception back in 1997. I told her she was dead wrong on that and told her I could read the RUA from a few of my owners manuals from the multitude of receivers I have had to prove that. But true to Dish's policy (they're ALWAYS right and we're ALWAYS wrong) she was not interested in hearing the truth.:nono2: :nono2:


----------



## CCarncross

All she needs to do is refer you back to is the line about subject to change at any time without notice or something like that. Bill, arent you the one with an RV waiver that doesnt even have an RV anymore? So in essence the waiver should be null and void....unless you sell the RV and get another RV and update your records with E*.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

CCarncross said:


> All she needs to do is refer you back to is the line about subject to change at any time without notice or something like that. Bill, arent you the one with an RV waiver that doesnt even have an RV anymore? So in essence the waiver should be null and void....unless you sell the RV and get another RV and update your records with E*.


Yes I am the one with the RV waiver and yes we have sold our RV. So I do not understand your post. I want to use the 301 in our basement and it would be hooked to a phoneline (as are the rest of my receivers) but they will still not unlock it even though they told me that I could do this. I have offered to fax them copies of the sale papers/title transfers but they are not interested in that. I told them my RV was for sale during the very first call and the 301 was disconnected (wrapped in a towel and in a canvas bag) and was only in my RV with me since I was driving a load of our stuff to the new house and then dropping the RV off at the dealer that was consigning it for me. Just like our 2 508s were in the suburban behind me which didn't creat a problem with Dish. I also told them during the first call to remove the RV waiver since we were selling it and wouldn't need programming to that receiver. I was never hiding anything from them.

The issue here is that in every other industry where you have a User Agreement they will notify you of any changes. For example, I get policy change notifications from our car insurance company when they send out the bill, same thing with my cell company, etc. They typically say as of such and such a date this part of the Users Agreement will be changed in this way. We as users can then decide if we want to continue service with them (accept the policy change) or go elsewhere (deny the change). Dish decides not to do this and then punishes you for not knowing that they changed the policy. In my case, it used to be completely legal to purchase a receiver (or use an existing one) for use in an RV and have it on your main account. At some point Dish decided (I don't know if it was a Federal requirement or not) to change that to say an RV has to be on it's own account (so they say since no one has been able to show me this policy anywhere). Now any reasonable company would have sent out notices to all their customers that would be affected by the change in policy (i.e. all those with RV waivers) saying the policy had been changed and we had until XXX (date) or upon your programming renewal date (I pay annually) or something like that to make the changes to our accounts. At that point, if given the chance, I would have just told them to pull the RV waiver and I would leave the 301 in my basement or sold it off. Problem prevented, I remain a happy Dish customer and Charlie keeps getting my $1350/yr. I was following the rules as Dish had laid out for me during and after the purchase of that receiver. I bought the receiver from Dish directly and told them it was for our RV, when I activated it I told them it was for my RV, and they had me file a RV Exepmtion for my distant locals. This was all done with Dish directly. Heck I bet if you look at the RUA from a new receiver, even the brand new 411, it does not say in there anywhere that an RV receiver has to be on it's own account. It does not say this anywhere on Dish's site either (I have asked several times). I have been told it was a change they made to their business policy (which they do not publish but we're supposed to abide by them). That is the issue here.

I just want the rest of my receivers, which have passed the audit, out of the audit dept and Dish has made it virtually impossible to do so with their non-published business policies.


----------



## Billcrates

Here is a a quote of the DISH RCA ( on the website) :

"YOU ARE A NEW DISH NETWORK CUSTOMER, YOUR ACTIVATION OF A DISH NETWORK ACCOUNT AND RECEIPT OF DISH NETWORK SERVICES SHALL CONSTITUTE YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF THIS AGREEMENT AND ITS TERMS AND CONDITIONS WILL BE LEGALLY BINDING UPON YOU. I*F YOU ARE AN EXISTING DISH NETWORK CUSTOMER, WE WILL NOTIFY YOU OF ANY CHANGES TO, OR REPLACEMENT OF, THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT AND YOUR CONTINUED RECEIPT OF DISH NETWORK SERVICES FOLLOWING RECEIPT OF SUCH NOTICE SHALL CONSTITUTE YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF SUCH CHANGED OR REPLACED TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND THEY WILL BE LEGALLY BINDING ON YOU.*

Does this mean that DISH should notify us of policy changes that affect contract holders reception of DISH services? I am not an attorney, but it seems to me if you read this - notification should occur. I have not seen any yet - any one else....


----------



## chrisk

I can't believe some of the posts here. I know some folks have some money tied up in receivers and such but really. BobMurdoch has 5 receivers and probably a $100+ bill. They shut off his receivers while he is out of town. When comes back and takes time off work for their stupid game, HE THANKS THEM!

This type of behavior by subscribers only reinforces the audit teams behavior and sends a message to E that many subs will bend over and take in the rear from them. If E ever pulls this audit #&&%$$ on me, I will be gone to D or cable in a NY minute.

I have said this before in this forum, VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET! Tell the audit team to FSCK OFF and cancel your account. Sign up with their competitor's. Affecting E's bottom line is the only thing they understand.


----------



## James Long

RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMER AGREEMENT
_Any notice required or permitted to be given by us under this Agreement may be provided via the mail, on your billing statement, as a bill insert, via broadcast on a television channel, *through publication on the website* set forth in the first paragraph of this Agreement, by telephone or by any other reasonable means._​JL


----------



## Billcrates

Should DISH highlite changes in the RCA - when applicable and indicate when the latest edition is placed on the website ? As a member of a regulatory board - we are obligated by law to do so in regulatory requirements? Maybe a civil law requirement to alert and highlite changes of any change in contractual language.. ? I have a vague recollection of an attorney telling me in a some contractual language I had to do...


----------



## Alpaca Bill

James Long said:


> RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMER AGREEMENT
> _Any notice required or permitted to be given by us under this Agreement may be provided via the mail, on your billing statement, as a bill insert, via broadcast on a television channel, *through publication on the website* set forth in the first paragraph of this Agreement, by telephone or by any other reasonable means._​JL


JL,

That would be fine but DISH or anyone else has not been able to show me where it states, on paper, website or anywhere, that an RV must be on it's own account. It would make sense to have this requirement on the RV waiver form itself but it is not. It is not in their FAQs. It is not in the RUA. How can we follow the rules IF the rules are not given to us in some form???


----------



## Billcrates

Alpaca Bill said:


> JL,
> 
> That would be fine but DISH or anyone else has not been able to show me where it states, on paper, website or anywhere, that an RV must be on it's own account. It would make sense to have this requirement on the RV waiver form itself but it is not. It is not in their FAQs. It is not in the RUA. How can we follow the rules IF the rules are not given to us in some form???


this is true.. The RV item was last updated - per a poster - 2003.


----------



## James Long

Billcrates said:


> Should DISH highlite changes in the RCA - when applicable and indicate when the latest edition is placed on the website ?


How many revisions back? Take a look back through the thread and you'll see the quotes from 2001 and 2003 versions of the Agreement. Phone lines have been required for a long time.


Alpaca Bill said:


> That would be fine but DISH or anyone else has not been able to show me where it states, on paper, website or anywhere, that an RV must be on it's own account.


You are still assuming that an RV receiver should not be required to have it's own account without finding anything in writing that says a mobile receiver CAN be on the same account as a home. But the closest I can come to your request is: (my bolding)Additional Tuners and Receivers.
We *may* allow you to place additional receivers on your account *in our sole discretion*. Each additional receiver will be authorized to receive the same Services as your initial receiver. *This option is only available if your initial DISH Network receiver and all additional receiver(s) are located at the same residence and are continuously connected to your same land-based telephone line.*​Is your RV located at the same residence? Not when you are travelling? Is the RV receiver continuously connected to a phone line? Certainly not when you are traveling. Later in that paragraph:If you desire to receive Services at two different residential locations, *you must open a separate account for each location*. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly use a single account for the purpose of authorizing Services for multiple DISH Network receivers that are not all located in the same residence and connected to your same land-based telephone line.​Is your mobile residence a separate location from your home?

JL


----------



## James Long

> _(A question from a member deleted his own post while I was replying ...)_
> My question to you and other posters supposing Alpalca Bill's story is correct- if you were on a civil jury - who would you rule for DISH or Apalca Bill....... ?


It would depend entirely on how the lawyers presented the facts. Echostar's past permissiveness and non-enforcement of the User Agreement can't be helpful to their side. Neither can contrary statements of their employees, if those statements can be proven. There MIGHT be some state or local law that requires more notice before the disconnection of a utility - if DBS is considered a utility in that jurisdiction. Whatever the influences, it would be up to the lawyers to present the case.

Juries have decided cases overturning contracts before. I suggest California or that popular court in Texas. BUT by the time you make it through the courts I expect that E* will have a different solution than connecting ALL receivers to phone lines. They may not even 'require' the primary receiver be connected.

JL


----------



## Stewart Vernon

In regards to the RV waivers... If I were to guess, I would guess that the rules haven't actually changed at all... BUT something has changed to make Dish enforce those rules more vigorously. Perhaps, as someone alluded, there is an FCC push to this? Who knows... but for whatever reason, it would appear that they are looking to more strictly enforce their rules.

Now... as far as the law goes... It isn't legal for a police officer to arrest you for parking your car illegally on the street but allow your neighbor to break the same law. This is selective enforcement, and is discriminatory, and can be brought to court...

BUT... if there is a law that says you can't park on the street... but it hasn't been enforced so you've been parking on the street.... and then one day the police decide to ticket all cars parked on the street from that day forward.... you can't really complain, as it was a violation that they are just now getting around to enforcing.

Methinks this is part of what is happening with Dish and things like the RV waivers... and wanting customers to have one account for their residence and a separate account for the RV. From my perspective, I can't think of any reason to complain about having a separate account for the RV as it is only fair since it is clearly a different place than the main residence.

It costs more of course... which is why most folks don't want to have a separate RV account... but it just sounds like Dish is tying up some loose ends where they were letting folks cheat the system for a while.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

James Long said:


> How many revisions back? Take a look back through the thread and you'll see the quotes from 2001 and 2003 versions of the Agreement. Phone lines have been required for a long time.
> You are still assuming that an RV receiver should not be required to have it's own account without finding anything in writing that says a mobile receiver CAN be on the same account as a home. But the closest I can come to your request is: (my bolding)Additional Tuners and Receivers.
> We *may* allow you to place additional receivers on your account *in our sole discretion*. Each additional receiver will be authorized to receive the same Services as your initial receiver. *This option is only available if your initial DISH Network receiver and all additional receiver(s) are located at the same residence and are continuously connected to your same land-based telephone line.*​Is your RV located at the same residence? Not when you are travelling? Is the RV receiver continuously connected to a phone line? Certainly not when you are traveling. Later in that paragraph:If you desire to receive Services at two different residential locations, *you must open a separate account for each location*. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly use a single account for the purpose of authorizing Services for multiple DISH Network receivers that are not all located in the same residence and connected to your same land-based telephone line.​Is your mobile residence a separate location from your home?
> 
> JL


Okay let's for the sake of this argument agree that this is no policy stating that an RV can or can not be on the main account. My argument still stands that back in Nov 2001 when I purchased a receiver for an RV, Dish requested me to fill out the RV waiver to receive distant nets on my MAIN account (all of this was told to Dish...I was not hiding anything). Which I did to comply to their request. So in their discretion they allowed it. But fast forward to July of 2005, I am now in violation since I have a receiver in my RV. They have known that fact for 4 years!!! A reasonable company would have said someting like, "yes you were following our rules but we have since changed them and we now require a seperate account for RV receivers. Would you like to continue to receiver programming in your RV? If yes then we need to put it on it's own account. If no, then it would need to be connected to a landline." I would have told them to pull the RV waiver and connected it to my landline. To me it is not worth the money just to have Dish while in the RV (it was when it was only $5/mo). We only used it for the news and weather anyway. Had Dish, back in 2001, tell me that the receiver I was buying needed to be on it's own account I would not have purchased it. To me this situation is walking that thin line of "bait and switch". They took my money for the receiver in 2001 and they took my money every month for 44 months and then make that receiver unuseable and virtually unsaleable.

But Dish decided that they were going to "steal" a receiver, by locking it, that I had paid for because they decided I was stealing their service. Yeah, under these circumstances it could be construed that I was "stealing" their service WITH THEIR PERMISSION!!!! They knew why the receiver was purchased, they knew where the receiver was located, they knew that receiver would not be connected to a landline, etc and they allowed it.

I have no problem with them changing their policies (or discretions), I just think it is unfair and unreasonable to punish (i.e. lock a receiver) a customer that was, by their own admission and information, following their rules.

And then during the audit I am told that I CAN connect the receiver to a landline, which I did, to get it reactivated but then they refuse to activate it. Again, I am doing everything they request and they still punish me. Unfair? Unreasonable? You bet your A$$ it is.


----------



## AllieVi

Alpaca Bill said:


> ... A reasonable company would have said someting like, "yes you were following our rules but we have since changed them and we now require a seperate account for RV receivers. Would you like to continue to receiver programming in your RV? If yes then we need to put it on it's own account. If no, then it would need to be connected to a landline." ...


I agree. DISH should have handled the situation as you describe. I believe your anger at DISH is justified.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Talk about timing! I just got this email from eBAY. This is how policy changes are done properly! Would it be that hard to Dish to do something similar? eBay definitely has more users than Dish has subscribers.

eBay sent this message to "deleted". 
Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more.

Changes to eBay User Agreement and Privacy Policy

Dear "deleted",

I'm writing to let you know that the eBay User Agreement and eBay Privacy Policy have been updated, effective immediately for users registering as of Nov. 22, 2005, and effective February 1, 2006 for current users.

The rules and dispute resolution policies you originally agreed to have not changed in any substantive way. The User Agreement has been rewritten, however, to cover new features such as Reviews & Guides, changes in the collection of overdue seller fees, and to better meet the needs of our growing user community.

The new Privacy Policy, like the old one, outlines the broad categories of information we collect from you based on your activities on the site and public data sources. It also now specifically calls out the fact that eBay does not sell your personal information for marketing purposes and directs you to a page where you can select how you wish to be contacted by eBay. If you would like to receive advance notice of pricing promotions, events, and other updates, be sure to select "Newsletters, promotions, and event notifications" in your Notification Preferences.

If you accept the new User Agreement and Privacy Policy, you don't need to take any action. If you do not wish to accept the new User Agreement or Privacy Policy, please refer to our Frequently Asked Questions about the User Agreement Revision for instructions on what to do.

Thank you for using eBay and we look forward to many more successful transactions!

Sincerely,

Scott R. Shipman, CIPP 
Senior Counsel, Global Privacy Practices 
eBay Inc.

This administrative email was sent from eBay, based on your account at www.ebay.com. You are subscribed as "deleted", registered on eBay.

As outlined in our User Agreement, eBay will periodically send you information about site changes & enhancements. Visit our Privacy Policy and User Agreement if you have any questions.

Protect yourself from Spoof (fake) e-mails. Learn More.

Copyright © 2005 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. eBay and the eBay logo are trademarks of eBay Inc. eBay is located at 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125.


----------



## James Long

EchoStar has it's own policies and are following their agreement.

JL


----------



## Alpaca Bill

James Long said:


> EchoStar has it's own policies and are following their agreement.
> 
> JL


Their agreement back in 2001 was to allow me to put an RV waiver on my MAIN account with FULL KNOWLEDGE of where that receiver was going to be used. They then allowed it to remain like that for 44 months.

So you honestly feel that Echostar did absolutely nothing wrong here? You have got to be kidding me!?!?! You think it is right for them to tell us one thing and then punish us for doing that exact thing?

You seem to be missing the point here. I have no problem with them changing their policy had they given those customers affected by that change a chance to make a choice in regards to the new policy. Quite simply, Echostar swindled me (back in 2001 and then again during the audit).

Heck I have told them they could have the receiver back (since they rendered it inoperable to me anyway) so they could let the rest of my receivers out of the audit dept. Two audit team members told me to do this and it would release my account but now they won't let me do this. What is the reasoning behind that change of policy? (I'll give you a hint...to screw their customers!). ANOTHER example of Dish saying one thing but then doing another.

And to carry that further, you think it is right to promise features in a receiver, charge $$$$ for it, NEVER follow thru on those promises, reduce the price by half and then discontinue that model all within less than a year (i.e. 7100, 7200, 921, etc)? And then not allow those customers any way (other than pay FULL price) to upgrade to the replacement?

And since I just read this on this forum, Dish shuts down peoples receivers, legal or not they do not care, in the Cayman Islands and THEN sends out the notice of a policy change.

Are these some of the great Dish policies you are referring to?


----------



## James Long

You're missing the point. The user agreement in 2001 said they could change the user agreement and could notify you on the website. The user agreement in 2003 has the same words. The user agreement in 2005 has the same words. They do not need to hold your hand and do MORE than what they promised you.

Was it wrong in 2001? By the letter of the Agreement YES, but a CSR error does not change the policy. Even a common CSR error. Is it wrong in 2005? Apparently more so since E* are now enforcing the rule.

It sounds like you have major issues with E*. We now know them. I've read them several times. Funny thing is that the more often I see one repeated story the more it looks like E* has made mistakes with only a few customers.

On to the next complaint ...

JL


----------



## Stewart Vernon

James Long said:


> Funny thing is that the more often I see one repeated story the more it looks like E* has made mistakes with only a few customers.


I was noticing the poll at the top of this thread... only a handful of folks have even said they have been audited, at least according to the poll.

Granted not everyone is on the internet or this forum... but it doesn't seem like even the bad experiences with the audit team are all that common.


----------



## derwin0

I thought the point of the RV waiver was so that you could have network programming when you took your reciever with you traveling in the RV. 
Not so you could have a dedicated reciever in the RV. Perhaps this is the way that the audit team is interpriting it.

Remember, Charlie said that he takes his reiceiver to the cabin with him, not that he left it there.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

HDMe said:


> I was noticing the poll at the top of this thread... only a handful of folks have even said they have been audited, at least according to the poll.
> 
> Granted not everyone is on the internet or this forum... but it doesn't seem like even the bad experiences with the audit team are all that common.


The poll was shut down a long time ago and it was only open for a couple days or so IIRC. I know this question was raised early in the post. JL please feel free to correct this info.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

James Long said:


> You're missing the point. The user agreement in 2001 said they could change the user agreement and *could notify you on the website*. The user agreement in 2003 has the same words. The user agreement in 2005 has the same words. They do not need to hold your hand and do MORE than what they promised you.


Okay can you (or anyone) show me where it states on the website (or anywhere for that matter) where it notifies me (and the rest of the 12 million customers) that their policy is that RVs require a seperate account? You can not. Dish can not. It's not there anywhere.

Obviously if someone has filed an RV waiver they are going to have a receiver in an RV, either temporarily or permanently. If this is/was against their policies then they should never have allowed me or anyone else to have the waiver on their main account where Dish placed it..not where I requested it). *Since they did so, by defacto law, they approved the use of a receiver in an RV.* IF this was their policy then their software should have automatically started a new account for that receiver.

Where do you see Dish holding my hand and doing MORE than what it promised? I'm not asking for that...they have not done that. I am only asking for them to DO what they promised! (i.e. notifiy of the policy change, let me reactivate the receiver if I hook it to a phoneline, have equipment with the features it was advertised as having, having said receiver actually work as promised, etc) This NOT an isolated case. This, as well as other forums, are full of stories of Dish (and Direct TV) not doing or delivering what it promised.

*You seem to be missing my statements that I do not have a problem with them changing their policy. You also must have missed my statement that I have touted Dish for 9 years. I have sent them numerous customers. In the last few years Dish has changed for the worse! It is the lying that I have an issue with. They promise things and then never deliver on those promises.*

This wasn't a simple CSR mistake. It is a widespread problem at Dish. They are inconsistent with their policies and the enforcement of them. I happen to be a person that does not take that lightly. I do not appreciate being labeled as a thief when I was honest and open with them. I never hid anything from them. I do not appreciate being lied to repeatedly. I could see Dish taking this stance had I never told them that the receiver was to be used in an RV, or never filed the waiver, or did not do exactly as they instructed me to do. BUT I DID, they approved of it and then stole from me.

You seem to think that is okay?


----------



## Alpaca Bill

derwin0 said:


> I thought the point of the RV waiver was so that you could have network programming when you took your reciever with you traveling in the RV.
> Not so you could have a dedicated reciever in the RV. Perhaps this is the way that the audit team is interpriting it.
> 
> Remember, Charlie said that he takes his reiceiver to the cabin with him, not that he left it there.


Yes I do remember Charlie stating that and that is part of the problem. I only used the receiver in the RV when we were actually using the RV. The rest of the time it was in my basement. DISH WAS TOLD THIS UP FRONT.

I am not saying the RV Waiver allowed use of a receiver in an RV but it should have told Dish that a customer intended to use a receiver in an RV (or lying to them just to get the distant nets). If they had a policy stating RVs needed to be on a seperate account their software and policy should have mandated it. This "oversight" should not have been allowed to happen. And when they "discovered" this oversight (during the audit), they surely should not punish the customer, especially a loyal one, for it. How about admitting they made a mistake and then offering a reasonable solution? I do not feel that locking a receiver, keeping my account in the audit dept and putting such tight restrictions on who I can sell the receiver to is reasonable (I can't beleive anyone would!).


----------



## James Long

It was a 10 day poll. I posted about that earlier in the thread.

And you're ranting again, Bill. I've shown you where in the agreement E* has permission to skew you over. I've shown you where in the agreement it says your RV receiver doesn't fit in as an 'additional receiver'. I've even shown you where they can change their policy by editing their website. Asking again won't change the answer.

JL


----------



## Billcrates

James Long said:


> It was a 10 day poll. I posted about that earlier in the thread.
> 
> And you're ranting again, Bill. I've shown you where in the agreement E* has permission to skew you over. I've shown you where in the agreement it says your RV receiver doesn't fit in as an 'additional receiver'. I've even shown you where they can change their policy by editing their website. Asking again won't change the answer.
> 
> JL


JL

You could be right on the RV waiver! However, if I read Bill's messages correctly - here is the real meat of the issue:
- He indicates that Dish sends bills to his house, but the auditor did not know where he lived. 
- He indicates that Dish called his number of his house and auditor did not realize that his receivers called in from that number 
- He indicates that the audit team made an verbal agreement to plug in to a phone line so that the receiver to re-activate and then suddenly does not remember - it was not in the notes. 
- He indicates that Dish told him they have policies governing how employees interpret the RCA but will not publish to the general public and then use these policies to shut off service. 
- He indicates that the DISH auditor said he was stealing service. 
- According to Bill - he tried to prove his innocence by faxing or mail. DISH would have none of it.

In fairness to DISH, I realize that am only getting one side of the issue. They do not post here under the company logo.

IF he is correct (I do not know for sure as I was not in the conversation with DISH) then DISH has the appearance of having terrible customer service and looks unethical. I work in a very large company. My job is partially in an auditing role and I know that the audit charter did not appear out of thin air. The company probably has a legal opinion that this is a correct practice. They are preforming these audits to get the customer base to adhear to the RCA and eliminate account stacking. They are going about it with strong message that customer YOU better conform. I believe that DISH is monitoring this thread -perhaps some of the audit team. And they feel the company must have an auditing program to eliminate account stacking. I would think the same way. I may do things differently. 
Your message in which I quoted. "E* has permission to skew you over." My question is ( assuming all of what is pubished is true) - Why does a company want to skewer a long term customer ? Why does a company want to have the appearence of being combative with their customer base ? In a service industry - with increasing competition, declining margins, increasing technology - want to look like the a 1000 lb gorilla in a china shop with its customer base... ? :eek2:


----------



## AllieVi

I assume DISH executives are aware of and monitor DBSTalk. I also assume they are aware of this thread and the audit department tactics detailed here.

If the above assumptions are valid, one has to wonder why the tactics exist. DISH is angering a lot of customers by allowing the audit team to be so harsh and exercise so much control. DISH management has to know that audit actions are viewed as poor customer relations.

As I noted in an earlier post, DISH may be acting in response to FCC oversight. Playing loose with the rules in earlier times may have gotten DISH in trouble with the authorities who now insist on and oversee the get-tough tactics.


----------



## n0qcu

Alpaca Bill said:


> Yes I do remember Charlie stating that and that is part of the problem. I only used the receiver in the RV when we were actually using the RV. The rest of the time it was in my basement. DISH WAS TOLD THIS UP FRONT.


THAT was your problem, most people when not using the receiver in the RV would actually have it connected an use it in their house not put it in a closet/basement, etc.


----------



## Billcrates

n0qcu said:


> THAT was your problem, most people when not using the receiver in the RV would actually have it connected an use it in their house not put it in a closet/basement, etc.


Sounds like a misunderstanding - It seems Bill was not trying steal a signal....


----------



## Alpaca Bill

n0qcu said:


> THAT was your problem, most people when not using the receiver in the RV would actually have it connected an use it in their house not put it in a closet/basement, etc.


What makes you think I didn't do that? I stated I did earlier in this thread. It was in my basement so it could be used...it was hooked up to the tv down there (as well as the playstation). People DO have TVs in their basements you know! But it really was only used there during family parties so the kids (younger cousins and such) could go somewhere else. The only time it was not hooked up to anything was while we were moving from our old house to our new house which was exactly when the audit team called.

I guess I could have just not told Dish about the RV and actually be in the wrong but I chose to be honest and upfront and play by the rules and still got screwed. I bet there are a ton of people that do this and I bet Dish has not caught one of them.

Now it is in a closet in the basement since it is locked and is just a paperweight.

Billcrates...EXACTLY! Never have, Never will.


----------



## on_line

I have read on this thread about people who claim to have had all their receivers in their house and still fail the audit after reading all the numbers to the audit team. After looking at my receiver, I see that one of the numbers on the system info page records how many signal losses the receiver has experienced in the last 3 or 4 days. On the system info page it is the number that follows the b: (at least for my 311 box). You can also find this info on the details page.

I would think that anything more than zero would give the audit team a clue that you moved the receiver in the last few days.

My 311 box tests for a satellite signal 90 times every 12 hours: 90 times between 9:30PM and 3:30AM and 90 times between 3:30AM and 9:30PM.

I found this out after I unplugged the receiver from the satellite for a couple of days when I was installing a new dish.

Anyone that has been audited have the audit team ask you for the number after b: or have you go to the details page and ask you to read that page to them? Maybe that's why they fail receivers even though you really do have them all in the same place when you call back the audit team.

Just a thought.


----------



## aquaman67

First, on_line,

Welcome to DBSTalk.

I'm pretty new here myself.

I see a problem with your theory.

When it storms, (lightning) I unplug my TVs and computers from both the electric and phone lines if I'm home. And if I know it's going to be bad while I'm gone, I'll unplug everything before I leave. 

And everytime I do, wouldn't it register a signal loss?

And the power goes off itself quite often too.

Or what aobut when it storms and the singal is lost on it's own?

I don't think the loss of signal can really be used to prove much. I've been reading here and on other boards about audits and I've never heard of them asking for anything but receiver ID, Smartcard number, Location ID, Boot strap, that kind of stuff.

The people who failed didn't have the receivers immediately availible for inspection. If they aren't hooked up, where you can get to what they ask for, you fail.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Well today was a quite enlightening.

One of my 921s had a HDD failure on Thu morning so I had a replacement shipped out overnight and got it yesterday. Well last night at 6 pm it started having issues with one of the shows it was recording and now this morning it will not even reboot (either soft or hard). So I called in to get another one sent out. The advance tech rep was VERY HELPFUL and shared a lot of info with me during the 2 hour and 21 minute call as well as RAing the 921. Unfortunately, this was my main 921 and we now have 20+ people coming over for the weekend and no receiver in our family room.

Appearently one of the policies that the CSRs have is that if during a call if they think the customer is doing anything illegal/immoral (i.e. accoutn stacking etc) they are supposed to file an internal report without asking the customer any questions which gets investigated by the audit dept. On my account she saw that I called in on June 18th to report a problem with my locals not showing up on a 921 that had just been replaced. The audit team called us and left a message on the 21st and then again on the 24th (this is notated on the account). Back then, when you had a problem with a 921 you had to call into advance tech support, leave a message and they would call you back. Since the audit team just leaves a message that says "Please call Dish network at 1-888-371-9077. This is not a sales call." I figured it was just the advance tech team calling me back to deal with this 921 problem and I did not have the time to call them so I did not. My wife got called on July 1st and all my recievers were shut off (which I did manage to get the 2 921s turned back on)and then on July 5th my account was locked pending the installation of my new phonelines. The next note was on Aug 1...it said that I had called in to update my account info (i.e. new address) and tell them the phonelines still had not been installed.

This is the interesting part. She saw a note from June 18th that said customer claims the replacement 921 is in his parent's living room, which it was. She thinks this was misinterpretted as being in a different location. My parent's living room was/is part of our house...they did/do live with us. Our old house had a kitchen, bedroom, and living room for them above our garage that was off our second floor (also where our kids bedrooms were). The new house is all one floor and they have their own space off our laundry room. This is not a violation since it is one residence..mine. One address, all utilities in my name, they do not rent, they do not have a seperate entrance, we share our laundry room, kitchen, garage, etc. We eat 90% of our meals together.

So this is one thing that she feels would have definitely caused us to be auditted.

The other thing she saw was that even today all 4 of my receivers are reporting back to Dish as being located in IL but all the info on my account shows IN. Our old house was in IL and we moved to IN in July. So she thinks that this could also be tagging our account since according to this info we are sending programming to two different locations. This really doesn't make sense since the 4 receivers have all called in from our new house in IN from the 219 area code, which the audit team has confirmed several times. She asked her supervisor if she had ever seen this before...she said it was a first (the tech rep I was talking to has been there for 4.5 years and her supervisor has been there for 10+ years). Her supervisor said it appears that there is a glitch in Dish's software (imagine that! ) Anyway, I live in IN but we are still in the Chicago DMA so she speculates that is why the receivers are reporting back as being in IL. They both felt I should call the audit team and have them look into this. This makes NO sense and is definitely not due to anything I have control over.

She also told me that 2-3 months ago all the CSRs (and techs) had a retraining session to correct common mistakes made by CSRs. She said a majority of the time was spent on the RV account/waiver situation. The instructors had to clarify and reclarify over and over that RV accounts HAD to be on their own account (according to her there were a ton of questions from the CSRs about this). So there is obviously wide spread confusion in regards to this policy within Dish itself so would it be that hard to rationalize that their customer base might be as, if not more, confused? So my question is, since Dish obviously knew that this was/is an issue (enough to schedule and pay all of their CSRs/techs for a retraining session(s)) why would they not have some sort of policy to deal with all the customers that would be effected by this (other than shutting off the receiver and locking it up)? So in effect, Dish admitted (albeit internally) they had made mistakes in regards to this subject but decided that they were going to take the stand that these customers were thieves not innocent customers led astray by their own CSRs' mistakes.

Sounds fair to me!:nono2: :nono2: 

I am planning on calling the audit team manager next week to see if this can be resolved.


----------



## Spruceman

Any of you turned-off guys, do you also sub to Sky Angel? When Dish programming to receivers is turned off for alleged noncompliance, do they also turn off the Sky Angel channels if you subscribe to SA as well? The SA TOS allows folks to take receivers occasionally to the summer home or hunting cabin -- or at least their TOS several years ago did.


----------



## zmark

Alpaca Bill said:


> She also told me that 2-3 months ago all the CSRs (and techs) had a retraining session to correct common mistakes made by CSRs. She said a majority of the time was spent on the RV account/waiver situation. The instructors had to clarify and reclarify over and over that RV accounts HAD to be on their own account (according to her there were a ton of questions from the CSRs about this).


Interesting. If I'm reading this right, then an RV exemption is no longer a viable way of getting distant networks. That sucks.


----------



## scooper

Well - it would be possible - for your ONE RV receiver, that will now have to be on it's own account.


----------



## BoisePaul

zmark said:


> Interesting. If I'm reading this right, then an RV exemption is no longer a viable way of getting distant networks. That sucks.


If you're saying that it's no longer a way to get distants in your residence, then you are correct. Under SHREVA/SHIVA, that's the way its supposed to be - RV waivers are not a valid qualification metod for getting out-of-market locals in your permanent residence. I don't like it any more than anyone else, and some close friends went through this ordeal, but that's the way the law is written. Of course it would have been nice, and still would be nice if E* would send a letter to those with RV waivers on accounts with more than one receiver that would explain this. In fact, they could even word it as such that the customer has n days to contact them to move a single receiver to its own account or the RV waiver will be nullified and delivery of distant networks will cease.


----------



## Tower Guy

n0qcu said:


> THAT was your problem, most people when not using the receiver in the RV would actually have it connected an use it in their house not put it in a closet/basement, etc.


The FCC rules do not allow an RV exemption to be used in a fixed location unless you go out to your RV in your driveway to watch TV. With more than one receiver on an RV account, it's assumed that the receivers are active in a fixed location. Unless you actually have two receivers in your RV, the current E* policy is really just obeying the rules.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

BoisePaul said:


> If you're saying that it's no longer a way to get distants in your residence, then you are correct. Under SHREVA/SHIVA, that's the way its supposed to be - RV waivers are not a valid qualification metod for getting out-of-market locals in your permanent residence. I don't like it any more than anyone else, and some close friends went through this ordeal, but that's the way the law is written. Of course it would have been nice, and still would be nice if E* would send a letter to those with RV waivers on accounts with more than one receiver that would explain this. In fact, they could even word it as such that the customer has n days to contact them to move a single receiver to its own account or the RV waiver will be nullified and delivery of distant networks will cease.


That is exactly what I have tried to argue Dish should have done both to the audit team and here on this thread but only now are people starting to see that (although Dish is not to this point yet). I am a thief in their eyes (and their words) and I have been accused of ranting about it here. Which is VERY troublesome for me. The info shared to me by the tech today shows that it was most likely an overzealous CSR that assumed that by me saying I had a receiver in my parent's living room, I was sharing my account with them and turned me in to the audit team. Why did the audit team never ask about this? Because they come into the process with the presumption that you are a thief and they just need to prove it one way or another (even if it is based on incorrect info). Their job is to find thieves

Even if this wasn't the reason for my audit and it was the second issue (receivers reporting back that they are in IL yet my account shows IN), why could they not verify that and then check their software like the tech did today? Why have they sent out 2 replacement receivers to my IN address if they thought I was account stacking?

I asked her what Dish was doing about all the people that have RV waivers with receivers in RVs but on their main account. She said that during the retraining session they didn't tell them what was happening to all those people. She said there were thousands of people affected by this so this is not an isolated case.

The more info I gather the more it looks like the audit team is just on a witch hunt and they do not care if some innocent and honest customers get burned during the process!


----------



## BoisePaul

Alpaca Bill said:


> The more info I gather the more it looks like the audit team is just on a witch hunt and they do not care if some innocent and honest customers get burned during the process!


This may unintentionally be the case. Seeing how the audit team appears to be an independant unit of E*, and assuming that the number of Audit CSR's working for them is somehow based on an estimated number of stackers/theives, if fewer and fewer "theives" are found, then the number of Audit CSR's needed decreases. In some backwards way, these people's jobs may depend on their continued ability to find violators, real or fabricated. That said, they could have a little bit nicer attitude about the whole thing - that would go a long way.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

BoisePaul said:


> This may unintentionally be the case. Seeing how the audit team appears to be an independant unit of E*, and assuming that the number of Audit CSR's working for them is somehow based on an estimated number of stackers/theives, if fewer and fewer "theives" are found, then the number of Audit CSR's needed decreases. In some backwards way, these people's jobs may depend on their continued ability to find violators, real or fabricated. That said, they could have a little bit nicer attitude about the whole thing - that would go a long way.


Another tidbit of info from today about the audit team. She was telling me that the maximum number of receivers a normal CSR could add to a single account was 6. If a customer wanted to add more than 6, they are sent to the audit dept and they, and only they, have the power to authorize any additional receivers past the initial 6. There is no limit of receivers a person can have on their account. BUT once you deal with the audit dept to get more than 6, you will always remain in the audit dept since they "have to monitor your account for any suspicious activity".

She said she has seen in the past where, due to a software glitch, some of the dual tuner receivers that are suppose to count as 1 receiver on your account have actually shown up as 2. She knew of several occurrences where this triggered a call from the audit team since these people had 2 dualtuners, should be counted as 2 but were being counted as 4, and 2 or 3 single tuners putting their number past the 6. She didn't know what the outcome of those cases were.

It sounds like the audit team will always have some sort of a job to do even if the job is created by glitches in Dish's own software.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Tower Guy said:


> The FCC rules do not allow an RV exemption to be used in a fixed location unless you go out to your RV in your driveway to watch TV. With more than one receiver on an RV account, it's assumed that the receivers are active in a fixed location. Unless you actually have two receivers in your RV, the current E* policy is really just obeying the rules.


Whats stops someone from having 2 receivers in their RV (I know with D* you can have one in the living room, and one in the bedroom) which they can take out of their RV and hook up inside their house? Nothing. Theres no phone lines in RV's when you travel so they have no idea where the boxes are. Now of course if you do have receivers in your RV with distant nets you probably won't be allowed to get your locals, but thats a simple fix with an OTA.


----------



## BoisePaul

theratpatrol said:


> Whats stops someone from having 2 receivers in their RV (I know with D* you can have one in the living room, and one in the bedroom) which they can take out of their RV and hook up inside their house? Nothing. Theres no phone lines in RV's when you travel so they have no idea where the boxes are. Now of course if you do have receivers in your RV with distant nets you probably won't be allowed to get your locals, but thats a simple fix with an OTA.


I see nothing to stop you from having 2 receivers in your RV, in fact that's a fairly probably situation with some of the newer bus style or class A RV's. It could be an interesting challenge to convince the DBS provider that this is really what you are doing. Now, as far as taking those receivers in your house, there's nothing physically stopping you - no walls and no magic force field that disables the receivers. In the long run, though, it still does not change the fact that doing so is illegal provided that you are receiving distant networks granted through the RV waiver process. It's not simply a violation of the provider's TOS or RCA or whatever they're calling it, it's a violation of a piece of federal legislation called SHIVA reincarnated as SHVERA.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

You could have 2 receivers in your RV...I know several dozen couples/families that do. They would both have to be on a seperate account from the receivers in your house (i.e. your main account). I do not think it would be against the law to bring these into your house during periods of nonuse of the RV since they would be on their own account anyway. The question is would it be worth it to have 2 full price accounts.

For me it was not worth a full subscription just to get programming for the few times a year we would have used our RV. That was part of the decision to sell our RV...we just were not able to use the RV as much as we had hoped.


----------



## BoisePaul

Alpaca Bill said:


> I do not think it would be against the law to bring these into your house during periods of nonuse of the RV since they would be on their own account anyway.


Would just bringing them into your house be illegal? No. However, using them to watch any distant networks for which you do not qualify without the RV waiver is illegal, unless you plan to put your house on wheels and register it with your state DMV. As I've said before, I don't agree with the law, and I won't comment on how strictly I'd adhere to it if personally put in such a situation, but that's the way it's written. You can thank the NAB for that one.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Boise,

I guess I wasn't thinking out of my box. I live in the Chicago DMA and I chose the Chicago locals for the Distant Network selection when I had the RV Waiver. So it was one in the same and I was not in violation of any law. However, when I first got my RV Waiver your only choice was East (NY) or West (LA) Distants and I had both but I also had the East & West feeds authorized on my main account. As soon as the Chicago locals were lit up and I activated them, Dish deactivated those feeds on my main receivers but I was still able to get the East & West feeds on my 301 (receiver in the RV) due to my RV Waiver. When Dish added the Chicago feeds as a choice in the Distant Nets, I called in and had them change my RV Waiver to Chicago.

But you are right, if the person does not live in the same DMA as the Distants they are authorized to get via their RV Waiver it would be illegal to bring them into the house for use there.


----------



## Tower Guy

theratpatrol said:


> Whats stops someone from having 2 receivers in their RV (I know with D* you can have one in the living room, and one in the bedroom) which they can take out of their RV and hook up inside their house? Nothing.


Several things should reign in on such behavior.

It's against the law.
It's against company policy.
When you apply for an RV waiver, you attest that you will only use the receiver in your RV.

An RV exemption used in a fixed residence is dishonest because such a person would be, in essence, stealing programming from their local affiliate without just compensation.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

A lot of things in life are just like bullies.

When you were a kid, if you were a bully you thought it was ook... and your parents may have even thought it was ok...

BUT when you grow up and have kids of your own... if your kid is being beat up by a bully, then suddenly the bully is wrong and should be punished.

Lots of folks think it is ok if they do it... but if the shoe were on the other foot, they wouldn't like it done to them.

Just food for thought.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

HDMe said:


> Just food for thought.


Food that doesn't really make sense here.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So is it ok for RV owners to watch the distants in their RV's if the RV is parked in their driveways?


----------



## Billcrates

Tower Guy said:


> Several things should reign in on such behavior.
> 
> It's against the law.
> It's against company policy.
> When you apply for an RV waiver, you attest that you will only use the receiver in your RV.
> 
> An RV exemption used in a fixed residence is dishonest because such a person would be, in essence, stealing programming from their local affiliate without just compensation.


OK - I can buy this. Should E* publish very specific guidelines on the dos & dont's of the RV waiver - and then audit -would make more sense


----------



## Mike D-CO5

I just looked at their waiver requirements and it says nothing about plugging it into a phone line. In fact it says : You promise that your sat dish that will be permanently attached to your rv or your commercial truck , will not be used to receive satellite programming at any fixed dwelling , whether a mobile home or otherwise. No where does it say you have to plug it into a phone line. It seems only to be concerned about the satellite dish that you will be using the receiver with. So where are the new rules that say you have to plug it into a phone line? Or is this just the audit police 's preferences?


----------



## James Long

Mike D-CO5 said:


> ISo where are the new rules that say you have to plug it into a phone line? Or is this just the audit police 's preferences?


Additional receivers must be connected to the same phone line as the primary receiver. When the audit team strikes they turn off all but the primary receiver. If you put your RV on a separate account then it shouldn't be bothered by the audit team. If you have just one receiver on your account there are no additional receivers to turn off.

It would be interesting to see how they would handle two receivers in the same RV.

JL


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I just looked at their waiver requirements and it says nothing about plugging it into a phone line. In fact it says : You promise that your sat dish that will be permanently attached to your rv or your commercial truck , will not be used to receive satellite programming at any fixed dwelling , whether a mobile home or otherwise. No where does it say you have to plug it into a phone line. It seems only to be concerned about the satellite dish that you will be using the receiver with. So where are the new rules that say you have to plug it into a phone line? Or is this just the audit police 's preferences?


Most of the people on this thread seem to be saying that the receiver isn't permanently in their RVs... as evidenced by taking them out of RVs, and in some cases no longer even having the RVs... which kind of makes them in violation of the part of the agreement you just quoted, doesn't it?


----------



## Mike D-CO5

I have read several posts where the poster says that the audit police have told the customer that they have to have all receivers including the rv receiver plugged into the same phone line. I am asking where does it require that on the Dish website. I am quoting their exact requirements from their website and no where does it require a phone line connection for the rv receiver. It only requires you to have your satellite dish permanetly attached to your rv or commercial truck. Look back on some of these numerous posts in this thread and you will see where it is mentioned by one of the posters as a requirement , by the audit police. 

Also in the past if you have numerous receivers and you got a rv exemption , Dish would turn on the distant networks on all of the receivers , not just the one rv receiver. Whose fault is that? Dish's fault and they need to contact these people with the rv and commercial truck exemptions and tell them of the change in the rules. Namely that they can only have the exemption good for the one receiver and that the other receivers would have to be on a seperate account. Putting people through these harrasment tactics is not good for business. They need to inform them , and change their requirements on their own website and tell the customers they can only have the rv or commercial truck exemption - good for one receiver and it must be on a seperate account.


----------



## James Long

ALL additional receivers on an account should be connected to the same phone line as the primary receiver. That isn't hard to find in the rules and has been quoted at least twice by myself in the past week or so. There is no exemption to that rule that mentions RVs, so the rule stays as ALL additional receivers.

For the RV exemption, the receiver must be permanently mounted in an RV (nothing about the dish being permanently mounted - which is good as some have tripod or other portable mounts and not permanent dishes on their RV).

It's the habit of using a home's additional receiver in another location that the audit team is cracking down on. Even if that additional location is one's own RV.

JL


----------



## BobaBird

Tower Guy said:


> When you apply for an RV waiver, you attest that you will only use the receiver in your RV.





James Long said:


> For the RV exemption, the receiver must be permanently mounted in an RV (nothing about the dish being permanently mounted


Take another look at what the RV Exemption requires.

You attest that the _dish antenna_ won't be used for a fixed dwelling and the the dish is permanently attached to the RV or commercial truck.

It says nothing, not even implied, about a separate account.

If Dish is changing the rules and/or their practices, they need to notify those affected and give them options for coming into compliance.


----------



## James Long

As long as the RV is not the same as your home it is NOT the same residence. That is where it can be implied that separate accounts are needed.

JL


----------



## BobaBird

That sounds reasonable as a way to explain it away but it doesn't match past practice and it isn't spelled out on the exemption. If there has been a change in the rules or their interpretation, Dish needs to tell their customers before throwing out accusations and punishments.


----------



## James Long

Where does it say on the exemption that you can remove a receiver from your home and use it in your RV? The exemption is solely so that you can get distants (as permitted under federal law) not to allow you to stack an RV receiver on a fixed residential account. Past mistakes don't change what is written.

JL


----------



## Stewart Vernon

As I am reading things, it seems to me the rules haven't changed... Dish is just enforcing them more strictly, perhaps as has been alluded because of some FCC pressure on them.

Think of it this way... The speed limit on the I540 beltline near me is 65 mph... but lots of people regularly drive faster than that, ignoring the clearly posted speed limit. If the police were to finally start enforcing that speed limit and giving people tickets for speeding... it isn't that the law suddenly changed, but that they merely started enforcing the law that was already there.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

BobaBird said:


> That sounds reasonable as a way to explain it away but it doesn't match past practice and it isn't spelled out on the exemption. If there has been a change in the rules or their interpretation, Dish needs to tell their customers before throwing out accusations and punishments.


 Exactly what I said. Dish has long allowed people to do the rv exemption and then turn on the distant network on ALL of the receivers. It is still Dish's job to inform people of the change or the strict enforcement of the existing policy. It is till Dish's fault that this problem exists and it is their responsiblity to inform their customers of the new shift to strictly enforce the rules as they NOW decide to interpet it.

It is never good customer policy to allow the liberal interpetation of the rv exemption, and turn on ALL of the customer's receivers for distant networks , and then years later call up and harrass the same customer like they are criminals, because of Dish's past non enforcement of the policy. This causes bad customer relations, bad word of mouth to potential Dish customers and generates Churn.

All that Dish has to do is send out letters like they did when they stopped allowing grandafathered distant networks in grade b areas. They clearly said choose either distants or the locals but not both. It was nicely written and said the FCC was forcing this change in the law. NO one was mad at Dish they were mad at the Congress and the change in the laws. Why is this any different?

Dish do the right thing and send the letter to ALL Of your rv /commercial truck customers , and inform them of the new stricter interpetation of the existing rules. Inform them they now need one account for the rv/ commercial truck customers. Give them a deadline to call in and comply. Then if they still don't get right you can sick the Audit Police on them.


----------



## James Long

It comes down to the reason these accounts are on the audit department's desk. The audit department isn't seeing the accounts because of the RV exemption, they are seeing the accounts because ALL receivers are not connected to the phone line.  

How many people in this thread who were targeted were hit because of an RV receiver? They apparently are going after multiple receivers with one or more not calling in REGARDLESS of if an RV is included.

JL


----------



## Billcrates

James Long said:


> It comes down to the reason these accounts are on the audit department's desk. The audit department isn't seeing the accounts because of the RV exemption, they are seeing the accounts because ALL receivers are not connected to the phone line.
> 
> How many people in this thread who were targeted were hit because of an RV receiver? They apparently are going after multiple receivers with one or more not calling in REGARDLESS of if an RV is included.
> 
> JL


JL,

Yes that maybe so. However, when a customer does something for so long apparently having the companies blessing with no problems, the customer feels the practice is condoned by the company. Years goes by the customers go about their business just paying the bill and have no real communication with the company. The customers had the receivers installed by DISH itself and/or get an RV waiver issued by DISH . The installers, CSR's and Tech services tell the the Honest CUSTOMER that phone lines are unnecessary. THEN the HONEST CUSTOMER is told in a suprise audit phone call that their TV setup is next to stealing and have recievers turned off . This is a bit much .... would not you think. A wise company would send out a widely circulated communication that the times are a changing - get in compliance. The bad guys are stealing service and causing the company to lose money. Most folks would bend over backwards to get in to compliance. The ONLY time I was communicated about this was this forum. I was told by many folks from DISH that the phone lines were not necessary. I love DISH's service. However, DISH's business practice in this matter is something that is really undefensible in my view.


----------



## aquaman67

I called Dish on Dec 23rd because one of the 301s I installed wasn't recongnizing the phone connection. I called Tech support and talked to Reeny. (Not sure how to spell her name, but she sounded American though.)

She asked what type of receiver it was and when I said it was a 301 she said "Don't worry about it, it doesn't need to connected to a phone line." I basically had to beg her to tell me who to trouble shoot it. The whole time she kept asking me why I was worried about it. I got it working by making it call out. I like the caller ID. (yes, I'm new) I don't have to yell for my 16 year old daughter any more every time the phone rings...


----------



## 928gt

I was ready to cancel my service after the 30 minute Gustavo "Audit" procedure ( I passed of course) last night and in the end was told I would continually go thru this until I had all 5 receivers plugged into a phone (2 are not). This last statement plus being told I only had one chance to pass their test infuriated me. Partially because all it was about was trying to intimidate me into having a phone line on all receivers and because of the "one try" attitude. I have 3 structures on my property with 5 receivers spread across them and my cordless would not make it to all of them and in the mountains where I live cell service is spotty at best, PLUS my main home structure is an underground earth berm house and walking thru it with a cell phone and not dropping the call is not going to happen. They said regardless of my situation I only had one shot at it. Any way, after I passed I was ready to drastically reduce or cancel my 5+ year $150ish monthly account because of how I was treated and called Dish. After getting thru 2 supervisors I was finally sent to the Advanced Customer Account rep (customer retention department) .. long story short I got a $153.59 credit (one month service) , a free wireless phone jack thingy and was offered the $250 deal for the 942. I was ready to get it and when the rep was finalizing approval from his supervisor the supervisor wanted to talk with me. He told me point blank to not waste any money on the 942 as it would be "obsolete in a couple of months". I asked if I went ahead and bought it wouldn't I still get an upgrade deal went M4 came on line. He said of course, but the upgrade cost for a 921/942 could be as low as $20(or lower), AND that there would be deals for existing HD customers for straight out purchases of the VIP622 as low as $99. This is why he said to wait because I could probably upgrade my 921 AND buy a 622 for less than $125!!. Just to keep him honest I requested he notate my account extending the $250 offer on the 942 for 3 months in case I changed my mind, he said no problem and updated my account.


----------



## buckyp

Just had my "audit team" experience today. My Dish was shut off while I was at work. Apparently they left a message with my mother in law earlier that I did not receive. They left a phone message today as they turned it off. 

I went home to lunch and found out the situation. I called dish and they asked me if I could stay on line the entire time. I said, no, I'm on lunch, but I can call back after work. He turned the signal back on until 10PM EST. 

I called back and was on hold for 25 minutes until a woman picked up. (I did hear how important I was to them over and over and over) She told me once we start the test, it cannot be stopped, I must not talk to anyone else while conducting the test and I may not put her on hold. (I was not given the right to remain silent)

So I told her my first receiver had not worked since the yellow card swap and I have called tech support 3 times to get it working. We worked on that one first. After rebooting and checking the software, I backed up and the international promo guide came on. I told her its working. She said "no its not" I said yes it is. I see the international promo channel. She said "No you dont." I said "yes I do." and began reading the screen to her. She said "you dont have international programming" I said "I know, its just the promo channel" She said its not working. Go to channel 101. I did and said it was dish FYI. then she said go to channel 105. I did and it worked. I thanked her for making it work and she seemed pissed and accusatory. I asked her what the problem is since I own the box, I pay the extra fee for the box AND you know I have the box. Everything is out in te open. We checked the other 5 boxes.

She was very unpleasant the entire time. I felt like I was on trial. I understand why they do this, but don't treat me like a criminal if I've done nothing wrong. At the end she said "everything matches up" and I should hook up all receivers to a phone line or I may get another call in 1-2 years.


----------



## greg12

Alpaca Bill said:


> Actually the 301 is locked and they will not release it from my account unless it is setup on a new account, either mine or someone else. Since Dish refuses to release the 301 from my account, even if I send it to them to keep (which I do not understand at all ), my whole account remains locked in the audit dept (so they can monitor any and all changes to my account). This is a major PITA since no one but the audit team can even see any info on my account so I HAVE to call the audit team first to get my account temporarily "unlocked" so that a tech or regular CSR can do anything to my account (i.e. check a billing question, tech issues with any of the receivers, etc). It just adds another hoop to jump thru which is totally ridiculous, IMHO but that is Dish's business policy (i.e. not written and not something that we accept by activating our service...it's just something they do).
> 
> Oh and the supervisor from yesterday claims that the RUA has been the same since it's inception back in 1997. I told her she was dead wrong on that and told her I could read the RUA from a few of my owners manuals from the multitude of receivers I have had to prove that. But true to Dish's policy (they're ALWAYS right and we're ALWAYS wrong) she was not interested in hearing the truth.:nono2: :nono2:


Are you serious? You can't sell that piece of equipment to anyone again except a new account? That is a total load of BS!


----------



## greg12

DoyleS said:
 

> I went back through the thread looking at the comments from those that were audited. Of the 9 people where I could extract receiver information from their posts, 5 had 5 physical receivers of which some were dual tuners. They typically had 2 or 3 of those receivers connected to phone lines. One person with 4 receivers of which 2 were duals, and two with 3 receivers where 2 were duals. As we would expect, it seems the targets are accounts with 5 or more equivalent receivers where less than 100% are connected to phone lines. There seems to be no evidence of auditing an account with say 3 receiver equivalents and 2 connected. One person with 4 receivers that were connected was audited and the audit team called that an error. Audits appear to occur only on weekdays and callback times are before 9PM central time.
> 
> ..Doyle


Sorry to tell ya man. My folks got an audit for having 2 active receivers. 1- 4900 and 1 -501 and 301 not active on the account. This is totally unrepectable of E. My whole family has E and I think its time to switch them all to D when their new media center comes out.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

Well the Audit Team strikes again!!!

This morning (6am) when I returned home from CES, I sat down to watch TV with my kids until 8am. I then went and took a nap since I had been up since 8am yesterday (took the red-eye home to Chicago). Anyway, at 3:15pm I turned on the 921 and no programming. I went into the other room to check on the other 921 and the 2 508s. The second 921 and one of the 508s were working fine but the other 508 was not...it to had the programming locked out, the same as the 921. I tried to call into Dish and for over 3 hours could not get thru (the system kept disconnecting me). It turns out there was a large telcom fiber cut that took out phone service. So I guess that isn't Dish's fault.

I finally get thru and I am told the 2 receivers were turned off since they are not connected to a phoneline. My response was "Yes they are! As a matter of fact the 921 was just activated by your department last Thursday evening." She told me that they sent out a "Collection Hit" (forces the receivers to call home) on Thursday morning and since these two receivers did not call back they were shut off. I told her that the 921 didn't even get to our house until late afternoon and was activated at approx 8:30 pm so if the "hit" was sent out in the morning, it couldn't possibly call since it was still in the UPS truck! I also told her that I specifically requested that all 4 of my receivers to be checked during each 921 replacement call (3 over the 2 weeks of Christmas and New Years) and they all passed each time. I asked her why a "hit" was sent out when they knew all of my receivers are in compliance. She told me that the records show the 921 and 508 had never called in. WTF!!!?!?!??! Their records indicated no record of my 508 calling in eventhough I had gone thru and forced it to call while on the phone with the audit team and they verified the call. Great system DISH!!!! She did bypass the lockout but only for 48 hours and she sent out another collection hit but it could take 24-48 hours to compile all the data (i.e. make all 4 receivers to call and verify). I asked her why a hit would be sent when they knew one of my receivers was in the process of being replaced and therefore would cause my account to fail the audit. She had no answer. Just another example of just how screwed up Dish really is. They purposely set their customers up to fail!!!!

After I got off the phone with her, I checked the 921 and it verifed the phone line connection but "dial out" was grayed out so I can not force it to call in. The 508 verified the phone line connection and displays "no dial outs pending" which (I have been told in the past indicates it has called in during the set time period and will not dial out until it is told to or there is something for it to call in about like a PPV). So as far as I can tell, the problem is Dish's records and software NOT reality since the receivers are connected.

So the moral of this story...

Once a presumed thief ALWAYS a thief (at least in Dish's eyes) no matter what!


----------



## greg12

The Dish Natzi's struck again. My sister got called tonight. So 3 out of 4 of my family members have been audited by Dish within the last 2 months. My sister has 5 boxes and 4 of them are hooked to phone lines. She is very upset and is thinking of cancelling Dish because she was made to feel belittled by the Natzi's. I think the poll should be reopened because it seems as though Dish is calling more and more people.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

greg12 said:


> The Dish Natzi's struck again. My sister got called tonight. So 3 out of 4 of my family members have been audited by Dish within the last 2 months. My sister has 5 boxes and 4 of them are hooked to phone lines. She is very upset and is thinking of cancelling Dish because she was made to feel belittled by the Natzi's. I think the poll should be reopened because it seems as though Dish is calling more and more people.


I'm not saying your situation doesn't suck... but if you stop and think about it, it makes sense.

If you have 4 family members that all have multiple receivers on their accounts and not all of them are connected to phone lines... and if any one of you is audited, it makes sense they would audit all of you.

After all, IF they think you are stealing signals or account stacking... who better than to suspect than your friends and family as being part of the scheme?

So actually this makes sense... that if anyone you referred (or who referred you) or is related to you also has a Dish account, they would be in the queue for audits if you are.


----------



## greg12

HDMe said:


> I'm not saying your situation doesn't suck... but if you stop and think about it, it makes sense.
> 
> If you have 4 family members that all have multiple receivers on their accounts and not all of them are connected to phone lines... and if any one of you is audited, it makes sense they would audit all of you.
> 
> After all, IF they think you are stealing signals or account stacking... who better than to suspect than your friends and family as being part of the scheme?
> 
> So actually this makes sense... that if anyone you referred (or who referred you) or is related to you also has a Dish account, they would be in the queue for audits if you are.


I doubt Dish knows who my family is and 1 has a way different last name. I didn't use the refferal program for them either. My concern for Dish is that I can understand why they are doing this but they are upsetting some of their better customers by doing this. There has to be a better way!

I really like Dish products but this is too much invasion of privacy and not the way to be treated. My family have all said that they intimidate you and make you feel threatened even though they had nothing to hide. Not COOL E*!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

greg12 said:


> I doubt Dish knows who my family is and 1 has a way different last name. I didn't use the refferal program for them either. My concern for Dish is that I can understand why they are doing this but they are upsetting some of their better customers by doing this. There has to be a better way!
> 
> I really like Dish products but this is too much invasion of privacy and not the way to be treated. My family have all said that they intimidate you and make you feel threatened even though they had nothing to hide. Not COOL E*!


I agree that there seems to be a heavy hand at work... and some folks are being treated unfairly even beyond what they are "suspected" of having done even if they were guilty.


----------



## buckyp

HDMe said:


> I'm not saying your situation doesn't suck... but if you stop and think about it, it makes sense.
> 
> If you have 4 family members that all have multiple receivers on their accounts and not all of them are connected to phone lines... and if any one of you is audited, it makes sense they would audit all of you.
> 
> After all, IF they think you are stealing signals or account stacking... who better than to suspect than your friends and family as being part of the scheme?
> 
> So actually this makes sense... that if anyone you referred (or who referred you) or is related to you also has a Dish account, they would be in the queue for audits if you are.


My beef was not the fact that they called me. It was how I was treated. If it would have been done with a less threatening manner by the CSR I would be OK with it. She was just rude and accusatory the entire time.


----------



## shaysweet

im a csr at dishnetwork and many times when a customer is speaking to us he will say things like "my receiver is working fine but my tennant says he is not getting any signal" most customers give themselves away. being that we (csr) may be recorded.. we have to fill out a report and it goes to the RATS. aka receiver audit team. 
honestly i know most ppl get mad if your receivers get turned off and you may really be honestly not sharing receivers.. but sooooo many people are sharing that it really is necessary


----------



## BoisePaul

shaysweet said:


> ...it goes to the RATS. aka receiver audit team.


That line just made my day. Good to kick things off with a chuckle.


----------



## Billcrates

BoisePaul said:


> That line just made my day. Good to kick things off with a chuckle.


Made my day too.... :lol: I guess this name will stick - the RAT squad....


----------



## aquaman67

shaysweet said:


> im a csr at dishnetwork and many times when a customer is speaking to us he will say things like "my receiver is working fine but my tennant says he is not getting any signal" most customers give themselves away. being that we (csr) may be recorded.. we have to fill out a report and it goes to the RATS. aka receiver audit team.
> honestly i know most ppl get mad if your receivers get turned off and you may really be honestly not sharing receivers.. but sooooo many people are sharing that it really is necessary


So how many people at E* have read this post to see how we (the customers) are being treated?


----------



## buckyp

shaysweet said:


> im a csr at dishnetwork and many times when a customer is speaking to us he will say things like "my receiver is working fine but my tennant says he is not getting any signal" most customers give themselves away. being that we (csr) may be recorded.. we have to fill out a report and it goes to the RATS. aka receiver audit team.
> honestly i know most ppl get mad if your receivers get turned off and you may really be honestly not sharing receivers.. but sooooo many people are sharing that it really is necessary


Again. Its not the fact we are being called.

I have nothing to hide and will cooperate with the test.
Just dont Assume Im stealing. 
Treat me, A PAYING customer, with respect.


----------



## tnsprin

greg12 said:


> The Dish Natzi's struck again. My sister got called tonight. So 3 out of 4 of my family members have been audited by Dish within the last 2 months. My sister has 5 boxes and 4 of them are hooked to phone lines. She is very upset and is thinking of cancelling Dish because she was made to feel belittled by the Natzi's. I think the poll should be reopened because it seems as though Dish is calling more and more people.


Apparently true. I just got called.

The person I talked to was very polite about it.

I do have one of my 921's connected to a phone line, but in an old house its hard to run wires (and I'm not going to pay for a wireless). At least with the newest receivers (411 and the vip's) they include a solution as long as one of them is connected to a phone line.


----------



## wumarkus

I received the message and called them back. They were very polite and described the process similar to what was described above, but were not accusatory or anything like that. It wasn't a big deal, just spouted the system info from all my receivers. She did mention something that was funny - when I said I had 4 receivers, she said, "oh, that's all, I've been dealing with 8 or 9 of them usually". I'd be a bit suspect of somebody with 9 receivers, as well... I understand the issue if they are being accusatory, but the overall process seems reasonable to me.


----------



## BobMurdoch

I thought six was the maximum....... Oh well, glad it wasn't too painful.


----------



## MrFooks

I had one of my 508's suddenly crap out last weekend.
I called and set an appointment for a technician to come and check it out.
Appt set for Thursday 1/26/06.
Technician checked all the wiring, signal very strong, moved wire over to other 508 and same feed fed that receiver no problem.
Anyway, tech goes out to his van and comes in with a 510 receiver to test the line once and for all.
He called his office about whether he can replace the dud 508 with the 510 and who do you think they refer him to?
Yes folks you guessed it. The receiver audit team.
I dialled the phone number, funny, they don't answer "receiver audit team" any more. I played dumb and told him I had a 508 gone bad and was referred to this number. Strange he said, you have a work order in the system for a technician today. I asked if this was the receiver audit team, he said it was.
I flat out asked if they had shut down my 508, he swore blind they had not.
He wanted to know if the tech had been or was there, I told him he is right here.
He spoke to tech and they are now leaving the 510 in place of the 508.
I never got to speak to the audit team again, but I would bet a million dollars they shut it down.
Everything was functioning fine including dvr content but on the signal strength screen all the satellite locations showed "CONN" with a big X through them.
Incidentally the tech was not aware of any of these things, until I showed him the posts on here.
Anyway at least I got a new 510 out of it.


----------



## BoisePaul

MrFooks said:


> I never got to speak to the audit team again, but I would bet a million dollars they shut it down.
> Everything was functioning fine including dvr content but on the signal strength screen all the satellite locations showed "CONN" with a big X through them.


This doesn't sound like it's the work of the RATs. Normally there is a message stating that you must call E* on the screen and you continue to receive signal, you just can't view any programming. This sounds more like a real hardware problem.

It's not suprising that you were referred to the RATs though if you've previously been audited. It seems that once they take control of your account, nobody else can do anything with it. For hardware changes, you have to go back through the audit team, even after your audit is long over.


----------



## James Long

Is the audit ever "over"?


----------



## BoisePaul

James Long said:


> Is the audit ever "over"?


From what I've read here along with my own observations of the experience a friend had with them, I'd say that it never really ends.


----------



## Alpaca Bill

James Long said:


> Is the audit ever "over"?


I was told on several occassions during my many calls to RATS that once an account gets sent to RATS it stays in RATS so "they can monitor any account activity", whatever that means. No matter if you pass the audit or not. Like I said before, once assumed to be a thief, always a thief in DISH's eyes.

I just tried to call to renew my annual subscription (I was hoping to be able to renew using the new packages but they said it can not be done until 2/1) but I can not do this with a normal CSR...you guessed it...I have to call RATS and they have to unlock my account and then they will transfer me back to a CSR to perform the renewal. What a bunch of crap!!!

I sure do wish D* or cable could offer anything that we could switch to. Unfortunately, Comcast does not even offer digital cable in this area much less HD and I do not want another 921-like receiver (D* current HD receiver). So I will hang out with Dish and wait to see what D* DVR will be later this year.


----------



## harsh

MrFooks said:


> Anyway at least I got a new 510 out of it.


Don't forget the new DVR fee that they gave you to go with the 510. I'd be demanding a 508 to replace it unless they agree to waive the fee.


----------



## kmcnamara

I've been with Dish for 9 years and have never been called by the audit team. However, my F-I-L was called last week. He's been with Dish for just over a year. However, I only have 2 receivers whereas he has 6. He got so mad at them that when they were done, he told them he was too busy for that crap and the next time they wanted that info, they could pay somebody to fly down from Colorado and read the codes themselves. He said they didn't really say anything else after that.


----------



## BobMurdoch

Hopefully a lot of this will go away once they start implementing the DishComm technology in new receivers. This sends a signal through your power lines to the primary receiver which is still hooked up to a primary phone line. It then can easily verify them in the background without having a separate phone jack needed for each receiver.

I'm guilty of this myself in that I have two of my receivers plugged into phone lines since they are easily accessible to them, while the other 3 are in rooms without phone jacks. Since I don't want to pay $200 for the privilege of wireless modules, I have been technically violating the "must connect to a phone jack requirement".

They have to be losing people over these tactics. The surest way to lose a customer is to treat him like a criminal. Whatever gains you make by "catching" those who have a receiver at a vacation home are offset by the loss of good customers who resent the gestapo tactics where they assume you are guilty until proven innocent....


----------



## scooper

Only 2 receiver, both plugged in - but the 4900's modem hasn't worked since well before the card changeout. IF they call and make a big stink - wife has been shown how to get to the Sysinfo page on both receivers, and both are easily accessible via different modulated RF channels. She'll probably spend more time finding the remotes than actually reading the info off...


----------



## JohnL

As most long time subs know I have been a Dish Supporter for along time.

That may be coming to a very quick end. Last Year I was audited, during that audit I mentioned my 5th receiver is in my RV and not plug in to a phone line, the CSR says okay. I provide all of the IDs and other information asked. The CSR tells me that all of my receivers (except the RV receiver) will now be required to be plugged into a phone line, which I did at my own cost, oh did I mention that I purchased my initial system at FULL RETAIL (600 bucks), purchased additional receivers at FULL Retail, Upgraded my Dish and SW64 dual setup myself at my cost.

About 1 hour ago I went through another audit and quickly provide all information the location IDs as well as which rooms in my home the receivers are in (Why I don't know).

After I get to the 5th receiver, the CSR then tells me since this receiver purchased by me at full retail is not in my home that it would be deactivated, and NEVER EVER be able to be added back to my account. If I wanted to use this receiver I would have to purchase a completely new account and can't use the RV exemption as its on my current account. My 5th receiver has never been an issue. The thing that kills me as that the CSR black balled MY receiver that I purchased so Its NOW useless to me I can't ever add it to my account, although it has residual value as its a 508.

I sent an email to the Ceo address, if I don't get a resolution its HELLO DIRECT hate to do it as I was really getting excited to get the VOOM and HD channels from Dish in the next few months.

The CSR was rude and accusatory as well. I pointed out in my email by subscriber acqusitions for Dish as well as being a top package customer for almost 9 years.

I will likely have Three DVR FREE Dish DVR's for sale soon. I have two 501's and One 508. I will have to wait till the new of the NHL Season as I have Center ICE, that really sucks as I'm totally pissed, without upper management resolution goodbye Dish service and I'll be selling my Dish Stock as well

John


----------



## peano

I think they should close the Audit Department and spend the money on the Signal Integrity Department. Dish could stop a lot more theft of their service without annoying long term paying customers.


----------



## n0qcu

Not only can you not add it to your account - NOBODY else can either, it can only be activated as the primary receiver on a new account.


----------



## diospyros

Well, it sounds as though the audit team is a real goon squad. I dread the day I have to deal with them. I use a cell as a home phone and my receiver has never been on a phone line. Soon (or not so soon) my 622 will arrive and I'll have multiple receivers and no phone line. So they'll probably start in on me just like the other unfortunate subscribers.

But it could be worse. I have no OTA to speak of and no cable on my road. So I have DBS or nothing. Would Directv harass its customers this way? Nope.
Why not? 'Cause any D* receiver not connected to a phone line requires its own subscription. Take it or leave it. I quote from Directv's FAQS:

"What is the purpose of connecting my receiver to my telephone line?
* * *
Customers who don't have a continuous telephone connection are not authorized to receive certain sports programming, must call us to order pay per view programs and must pay a separate subscription price for each receiver..."

E*'s policy on this really sucks, but would anyone prefer they go D*'s route?


----------



## zmark

diospyros said:


> Would Directv harass its customers this way? Nope.


Yep.. Directv wouldn't waste time with an audit squad. They just sue their customers instead. :nono:


----------



## aquaman67

zmark said:


> Yep.. Directv wouldn't waste time with an audit squad. They just sue their customers instead. :nono:


I like how each blue word is a different article.


----------



## John888

Guys my friend is planning to sub 3 Receivers and NOT connect them to a phone line.

Do you guys know if DISH does the *audits for people *who have *3 receivers *?

When people have 4 or 5 receivers that are not connected to a phone line it makes sense to audit; But will 3 receivers be a major concern to DISH?


----------



## n0qcu

Best advice: advise your friend to be prepared to be audited.


----------



## harsh

John888 said:


> Guys my friend is planning to sub 3 Receivers and NOT connect them to a phone line.


If there are three televisions, this will likely be a "two receiver" install (one x22 and one x11). I'd be more concerned about getting nailed for the $5 monthly penalty on the x22 than the chances of getting audited.

If the wiring is an issue, Dish used to be responsible for it as part of the install. The current description does not mention phone jacks.


----------



## BobMurdoch

At $5 a month a wireless phone jack pays for itself in 16 months or less.


----------

