# No wonder the picture on Dish Network is so crappy



## Guest (Apr 28, 2002)

Somebody was telling me that the D1 Master Videotape that people in tv studios and stuff use have a bitrate of 270Mbps, and that Dish Network channels(expept the HD ones) have a bitrate of about 2.5Mbps.
DAMN, If you compress a video signal THAT MUCH, then what exactly do you have left from the original source material? 
I mean even Cliffs Notes don't compress that much out.


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## Mike (Apr 10, 2002)

For little dish quality, I don't see a problem with the Dish signal at this time. Compared to the signals of the past, I don't see much of a difference. They have fixed KWGN dramatically since last year. Only beef I have with them now is WCBS is still not linking up with the audio and picture. It's been going on for at least a week. The CBS Television City show last night was just unwatchable on Dish. I switched it to DirecTV when some of the baseball games got finished or were pretty much decided.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Kenny, you hit the problem right on. Though I will tell you it's not quite as bad as it sounds - DVD is only 6-10 depending on the disc. Remember, you aren't just compressing each individual fram. You're also making predicted frames, where a set of frames is drawn based only on the changes from the frame before it, then there's another key frame (or complete frame). To get GOOD quality, it would be nice if they could up the bitrate to about 4mbps or so. Another problem with DISH quality is that they broadcast at a low resolution, they really should up their resolution to 720x480 (currently it's 480x480)


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

I dont think D1 is 270 MBps, (imagine the size of the tape neded to hold an hour show? D1 cartridges are about the size (if not smaller) of a 3/4" tape.

It is possible that D1 may have 27MBPs but not 270Mbps. THat tape would be moving really fast for 270 Mbps 

Your adverage DVD is somewhere around 3 - 4 Mbps bitrate (this figure reached by poping in a few DVD's and doing a quick test)


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Scott is correct D1 is nowhere near 270mbps. But it's still quite a bit higher than what they broadcast at, AND recompression always makes the problem even worse


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## Kevin (Mar 27, 2002)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Dish's PQ. When I switched from Cablevision to Dish two years ago, I couldn't believe how good the PQ was on Dish. Now when I go to my friend's house that has Cablevision, I can't help but laugh at how awful their PQ is. So really, none of us have anything to complain about.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *I dont think D1 is 270 MBps, (imagine the size of the tape neded to hold an hour show? D1 cartridges are about the size (if not smaller) of a 3/4" tape.
> 
> It is possible that D1 may have 27MBPs but not 270Mbps. THat tape would be moving really fast for 270 Mbps
> ...


I know that it's a normal reaction to not believe the truth when the truth is so horrible and so ugly that most people would rather believe what is false than what is truth. 
But it actually IS the truth that uncompressed D1 video has a bitrate of 270Mbps and that Dish Network channels(except HD ones) have a bitrate of about 2.5Mbps.
I bet if the average person saw D1 video on a studio monitor vs the same show on Dish Network on a studio monitor, then their jaw would hit the floor, smoke would come out of their ears, and their eyes would pop out of their head when they realized just how bad Dish Network's picture really is.
Here are some links that clearly show that D1 has a bitrate of 270Mbps.

http://www.sunsetpost.com/standard_pages/glossary.htm

http://www.videofonics.com/videofonics/glossary.html

http://www.screensound.gov.au/glossary.nsf/Pages/Bit?OpenDocument

http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic3/256atab.htm


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## dvdguyjt (Apr 22, 2002)

Being a former DVD Production/authroing/video editing technician, maybe I can shed some light on this.....

I do believe that D1 has a MAX bitrate of 270mbps, but it rarely runs that high) 10-30 mbps is somewhat more standard with 720x480 resolution. DVD, on the other hand, can only run as high as 9.8 mbps (audio + video total) but you can't fit much on a disc at that rate (Less than an hour on a DVD-5). Most DVD's (and I assume Dish Network) use Variable Bit Rate Encoding so that the rate changes depending on the type of scene. For example, in a high action scene, the rate may jump to 8 mbps, but in a still dialog scene it could go down as low as maybe 3mbps.

Dish network (I assume) uses VBR encoding and 480x480 resolution. If they used 720x480, you would definitely see more artifacting. The 480x480artificially "smooths" the video by bringing the resolution down (which hides some of the obvious artifacting) If they were to go to 720x480 (which they should) you would see more artifacting. They are probabaly at 480x480 so that they don't have to hear quite as much whining from consumers about the PQ.


 

JT


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mark _
> *Though I will tell you it's not quite as bad as it sounds - DVD is only 6-10 depending on the disc. *


Which DVDs did you use? How many audio tracks were on that DVD, as well as subtitle tracks?

Remember, too, that DBS often has to compress as it comes down the pipeline, while DVD has the luxury of spending extra time compressing. DVDs often also have several audio tracks as subtitle tracks that is part of that bitstream.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Z'Loth _
> *
> 
> Which DVDs did you use? How many audio tracks were on that DVD, as well as subtitle tracks?
> ...


But don't many dbs channels also have secondary audio tracks, closed captioning, etc and stuff?
I don't think that compressing on the fly is any excuse for Dish's bad picture quality. It's Charlie and Dish's fault for having local channels on Dish and destroying the once acceptable picture quality.
If Dish Didn't have local channels, then the core channels could be DVD quality. I'd much rather have DVD quality core channels and get my locals with OTA rather than have WORSE than vhs quality core channels and worse than VHS quality locals on Dish.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Wondering, on the fly compression makes a HUGE difference as it makes it much harder to make good P frames (predicted). D1 is never used at 270mbps, though I believe it is the highest POSSIBLE. Agreed also that locals are what destroys the picture... DOWN WITH LOCALS! (unless they decide to add the Missoula DMA)


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

I contacted a buddy of mine who works down the streetfrom me at ESPN in Bristol, he said their D1 machines were operating at the high 20's. 

I asked him about the higher (270 Mbps) and he said anything was possible just depended on how much you wanted to spend.


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## dvdguyjt (Apr 22, 2002)

"On The Fly" encoding is definitely not all its cracked up to be. With DVD, I always did 2 pass encoding. This way, the encoder would go through the entire video and generate a log of what bitrate to use and when to use it (on a frame level). Then, it would run the video again and use the log to encode. "On The Fly" encoding doesn't give the encoder too much room for error. 2 pass, however, allows for the encoder to look closer at the video signal and correct for errors.

JT


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2002)

Actually, Scott is right.... D1 video data rate is 27meg.

D1 is the original component digital tape format.
A true 4:2:2 recording.... cosisting of 4x sample rate of luminance (Y), 2x sample rate for the color difference components (R-Y, B-Y).

4 (Y) - 4xfsc(3.579545meg) = 13.5 meg
2 (B-Y) - 2xfsc = 6.75meg
2 (R-Y) - 2xfsc = 6.75meg

A total of 27 meg.

The 270 meg refered to above is common data rate for "SDI" transport of 4:2:2 (4x3 aspect ratio).
360 meg SDI for 16x9 aspect ratio.
1.5 gig for HD

FYI - a common data rate for HD content delivery is 19.3 meg CBR.

D1 is rarely used as distubution format due to high cost and is rather clumbsy to use.
Digital BetaCam has primary distibution format for some time now. D5 or HDCam is distribution format for HD.

Hope this helps.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Another "crappy" cheap-shot thread about Dish picture quality. Duh. Doesn't take much brains or imagination to start another one of these. 

My PQ on Dish is just fine. What is your problem? :shrug: If you don't like your PQ now, wait'll you go back to cable.

Nick :smoking:


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Wondering _
> *But don't many dbs channels also have secondary audio tracks, closed captioning, etc and stuff?*


The dbs channels are usually stereo, and sometimes have a secondary audio channel. They use the standard CC routines that have been around since the early 80's.

In contrast, DVDs have both Closed Captioning as well as subtitles. AFAIK, there is no "font" for DVD, rather they construct it as still-stores. The MST3K-like commentary on both _Ghostbusters_ and _Men In Black_ were all done using the caption tracks.

Also, a recent film DVD will probably have the image anamorphically enhanced for 16:9 displays, which gets downconverted by the player for 4:3 displays.



> *I don't think that compressing on the fly is any excuse for Dish's bad picture quality. It's Charlie and Dish's fault for having local channels on Dish and destroying the once acceptable picture quality.
> 
> If Dish Didn't have local channels, then the core channels could be DVD quality. I'd much rather have DVD quality core channels and get my locals with OTA rather than have WORSE than vhs quality core channels and worse than VHS quality locals on Dish. *


If there are two things that help sell DBS, it's sports and locals. Besides, Dish got caught in a bad spot due to delays in launching E*7 and E*8 (DirecTV barely made the deadline). Thus, compression was cranked up. Blame the NAB, because some of the stations requesting must carry are simply repeaters of already-delivered programming through E*, mainly religious stations.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

"My PQ on Dish is just fine. What is your problem?"

LOL, no, the picture on DISH is not "just fine". To call it "just fine" is crazy... It's terrible.


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

I was at Costco here in Salt Lake and the had a big-screen tv hooked up to a Dish network receiver. The picture was horrible. You could actually see every pixel on the screen. There was a concert showing and it was awful. I hope with the new birds, they can improve the PQ for E* subs. I suppose on a 20" tv, it would be o.k., but definitely not on a big screen.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Okay, just for S&Gs....

Osamu Tezuka's Metropolis
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disk: Dual Layer
Audio (4): Contains 5.1 Japanese Dolby Digital Tracik, 5.1 Japanese dts track, English 5.1 Dolby Digital, French Dolby Surround
Subtitles (8): English (Original Japanese Translation, US Theatrical), French, Spanish, Portugese, Chinese, Korean, Thai
Closed captioning: Yes.

As you can tell, this is a fully loaded disk. dts tracks are encoded at a higher bitrate. A general sampling of everything is running at 7.5-9 Mbps.

NOTE: This is NOT the Fritz Lang version.

Bill Clinton's Grand Jury Testamony
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Single layer disk
Video note: This was taken from the satellite broadcast of September 21, 1998, so the source material is bad, and is soft. This DVD was turned around and made available for sale 24 hours after Satellite transmission. Total run time: 4 hours.
Audio: English 3 channel. 
Subtitle: None
Closed captioning: None
Average bitrate: 2.5-2.6 Mbps.

Twilight Zone #7: The Hitch-Hiker (one of four episodes)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Single layer disc
Audio: Mono 1-channel
Subtitles: None
Closed Captioning: None
Video Note:Black & White

This is a bare bones DVD release. However, the average bitrate runs 3.2-5 Mbps, although a cross-fade ranked at 6 Mbps.

Contact
~~~~~
Dual-layer disk.
Audio: English 5.1, French Stereo, 3 Commentaries
Subtitles: English, French, Spanish
Closed Captioning: Yes.

The section containing the shot from the Universe to Ellie's eye ran around 5.4 Mbps. although some shots peaked at 9. Regular scenes are at 4.9-5.4.

Forbidden Planet (P&S Side)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Single Layer disc
Audio: English, French
Subtitles: Both "Captions for the hearing impared" and "subtitles" are in English, French, and Spanish.
Closed captioning: Yes.
Average bitrate: 5.7-7.8 Mbps

Mystery Science Theater 3000: The Movie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Single layer disk
Audio: English stereo
Subtitles: NONE
Average bitrate: 5.3-7.7

Terminator 2: Judgment Day (Ultimate Edition)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dual-Layer disk
Audio: Dolby Digital 5.1, dts 5.1, Dolby Surround 2.0, Audio Commentary
Subtitles: Englishx2. 
Closed captioning: No

THX ran around 9-9.6 Mbps, opening scene ran 6.0-8, with peaks around 10.

*Conclusion:* As you can see, there are wide variances between the complexity of material that is encoded on the DVD and the resulting bitrates. Terminator 2: Judgment Day rans longer than Metropolis, so the bitrate has to be lower than Metropolis, even with the same audio tracks. However, Mystery Science Theater is a color, non-anamorphic bare bones DVD, and it has a higher Mbps rate.

Look at the bit budget. DVDs have a fixed amount of space, so every inch is valuable. However, MST3K: The movie has a higher Mbps, even though it's a simple transfer with no extras. I went in and selected several DVDs, but, as you can see, I can cook the results by the DVDs that I've selected. But, look at the features, and tell me if everything contained UP THERE is going to be part of the DBS broadcast.

Did anyone promise a "home theater experience" with DBS? Most of the pay channels show movies in "pan and scan" or "open matte", totally ignoring the original aspect ratio of the film. Only a few of the pay channels offer 5.1 dolby sound.... everything else is in Stereo.

I have a collection of 375 DVDs. Which ones would you like for me to pull of Mbps numbers? Mind you, I only took a few scenes, I didn't watch the entire movie.


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## dvdguyjt (Apr 22, 2002)

------- Terminator 2: Judgment Day rans longer than Metropolis, so the bitrate has to be lower than Metropolis, even with the same audio tracks. ----

Not necessarily. Maybe the T2 disc fills all 8.4 GB of the DVD-9 while Metropolis fills only 7 GB or less.


------However, Mystery Science Theater is a color, non-anamorphic bare bones DVD, and it has a higher Mbps rate. Look at the bit budget. DVDs have a fixed amount of space, so every inch is valuable. However, MST3K: The movie has a higher Mbps, even though it's a simple transfer with no extras.----

Just a note, the MST3K DVD is one of the rare DVD's that has PCM audio rather than Dolby Digital or DTS. You have to take that into account when looking at the bitrate. Most Dolby Digital releases run at either 224, 384, or 448 Kbps. DTS runs at 448 or 764 Kbps. PCM audio on the other hand, runs at a whopping 1.2 Mbps. It gives DVD's a significantly higher bitrate and takes up a lot more space (since it is uncompressed) This is why its rarely used (well, also because its only 2 channel).
My guess is that Dish Network uses audio compressed down to 192 Kbps (or lower). 192 Kbps is the minimum used for DVD. Anything lower would be really lossy. Just listen to a 128K MP3 on a regular stereo. Yes, MP3 is a different kind of compression, but at low rates all compression is really lossy. You can hear how tinny it sounds. 
Also, anamorphic video takes up the same amount of disc space as non-anamorphic video. 
JT


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Doesn't the DVD player come into factor when viewing DVDs?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dvdguyjt _
> *------- Terminator 2: Judgment Day rans longer than Metropolis, so the bitrate has to be lower than Metropolis, even with the same audio tracks. ----
> 
> Not necessarily. Maybe the T2 disc fills all 8.4 GB of the DVD-9 while Metropolis fills only 7 GB or less.
> ...


Some of the highest bitrate dvds I've heard of are Se7en Platinum Series with an average bitrate of 7.89 Mbps, the DVD-18 copy of Aquaria with the bitrate constantly being around 9.9-10.0 Mbps, Charlie Brown's Christmas with the bitrate always being in 7-10 Mbps neighborhood, and Big Trouble in Little China with an average bitrate of 9.13 Mbps.


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## dvdguyjt (Apr 22, 2002)

---------Doesn't the DVD player come into factor when viewing DVDs?----------

It shouldn't, but unfortunately it does. The reason for this is that many DVD players are not made "by the book" They do not follow each and every part of the DVD Specification Manual when building the player. That is why image quality differs depending on players. I have discs that look great on my Pioneer, but look like crap on my Philips and Apex palyers. It just depends.

 JT


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dvdguyjt _
> *------- Terminator 2: Judgment Day rans longer than Metropolis, so the bitrate has to be lower than Metropolis, even with the same audio tracks. ----
> 
> Not necessarily. Maybe the T2 disc fills all 8.4 GB of the DVD-9 while Metropolis fills only 7 GB or less.
> *


Both have fully animated menus, however, Metropolis has several trailers as well.

T2:UE also is a complicated disc that doesn't play on some players. Part of it is because it utilizes seemless branching in order to show the theatrical version, the special edition, and the hidden extended special edition. I think Van Ling (who designed many of the well done menus on DVDs) said that he had extremely limited space for menus.



> *
> ------However, Mystery Science Theater is a color, non-anamorphic bare bones DVD, and it has a higher Mbps rate. Look at the bit budget. DVDs have a fixed amount of space, so every inch is valuable. However, MST3K: The movie has a higher Mbps, even though it's a simple transfer with no extras.----
> 
> Just a note, the MST3K DVD is one of the rare DVD's that has PCM audio rather than Dolby Digital or DTS. *


Oops, I forgot about that. But, it shows how the results of DVD can be "cooked".

My point in posting these results was to show how DVD numbers are higher than DBS numbers because of mitigating circumstances. I love it when people brag how much better DVD is over DBS despite the fact that how DVDs are encoded are different than how DBS signal is sent, and how additional features on DVDs.


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