# Off Air Antenna Amplifire..Help PLease!



## Dwyane Wade (Feb 2, 2006)

I need your help, i just bought an amplifire from Radio Shaq for my Axession Samsung indoor Antenna, and when i hooked it up there was not signal boost, it seem that it got worse! It went from 85ish before i set it up to now avg of 81 signal strength, can anyone hlep me please, i want good HD for the superbowl, HELP ME PLEASE!!!!!


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## the_bear (Oct 18, 2004)

The signal meter shows the signal to noise ratio, not signal strength. Yes, the amp probably made your signal noisier. An amp is only useful for a long cable run or splitters. An 85 is a good reading, so why do you want a amp?


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

Dwyane Wade said:


> I need your help, i just bought an amplifire from Radio Shaq for my Axession Samsung indoor Antenna, and when i hooked it up there was not signal boost, it seem that it got worse! It went from 85ish before i set it up to now avg of 81 signal strength, can anyone hlep me please, i want good HD for the superbowl, HELP ME PLEASE!!!!!


You first mistake; Indoor antenna
Your second error; Radio shack
Third miscue; indoor preamp

Put the antenna near a window or outdoors just for the Superbowl. Expecting an indoor antenna to work well is like expecting your car to run well on water instead of gas. Yeah, it's cheaper and easier but it's usually the wrong thing to do.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Tower Guy said:


> You first mistake; Indoor antenna
> Your second error; Radio shack
> Third miscue; indoor preamp
> 
> Put the antenna near a window or outdoors just for the Superbowl. Expecting an indoor antenna to work well is like expecting your car to run well on water instead of gas. Yeah, it's cheaper and easier but it's usually the wrong thing to do.


My indoor antenna works great! Actually, I have two indoor antennas (one directional and one omni-quarter-wave) connected together... and I get everything in my local market fairly solidly.

Indoor antenna experiences vary with distance from towers in your market and obstructions between you and the towers.

I have noticed, though, that any kind of amplifier on my antenna setup does degrade signal across the board and completely kills a couple of channels altogether... so I learned early on not to mess with the amp.


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## Dwyane Wade (Feb 2, 2006)

Thanks a lot guys i really appreciate it, i decded to return teh indoor amp..Do any of you know how to install an outdoor antenna, is it hard, will it give me better signal then 85ish, where should i buy a godo one from?


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Dwyane,

Why do you think that you need a signal higher than 85? 85 is perfectly acceptable for an OTA digital signal. SNR is also very important. If you can check it, it should be at least 20 (higher is better). Poor SNR with a good signal strength is an indication of a multipath problem (signals coming in from several directions caused by reflections from building, trees, ect.). Some receivers can "resolve" the multipath problem but it usually takes the receiver longer to lock in on the digital signal.

An something you should know about RF signal amps. TOO much gain is just as bad as no gain. Quite often the noise signal (and Radio Shack amps have a very poor noise ratings) over rides the very small signal you are getting from your antenna.


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## Dwyane Wade (Feb 2, 2006)

Bill R said:


> Dwyane,
> 
> Why do you think that you need a signal higher than 85? 85 is perfectly acceptable for an OTA digital signal. SNR is also very important. If you can check it, *it should be at least 20 (higher is better)*. Poor SNR with a good signal strength is an indication of a multipath problem (signals coming in from several directions caused by reflections from building, trees, ect.). Some receivers can "resolve" the multipath problem but it usually takes the receiver longer to lock in on the digital signal.
> 
> An something you should know about RF signal amps. TOO much gain is just as bad as no gain. Quite often the noise signal (and Radio Shack amps have a very poor noise ratings) over rides the very small signal you are getting from your antenna.


Well, once my OTA goes 69 and under in its signal strength it loses picture and says loss of signal...BTW, i decided to watch the game just w/ my reg OTA, no amps, (like i said i returend it), And it worked great, there was no interuption this, none what so ever, not once, and it looked crystal clear!..Maybe the reason it kept missing up last tiem was b/c i was watching the game when it was on Fox and it kept lossing signal that day, is there any way i can improve fox's signal strength? If not, Football Season is over, and its not like Basketball comes on fox for me anyways, so hopelly Dish will be out w/ local HD in DC area by next year...


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Dwyane Wade said:


> Well, once my OTA goes 69 and under in its signal strength it loses picture and says loss of signal...BTW, i decided to watch the game just w/ my reg OTA, no amps, (like i said i returend it), And it worked great, there was no interuption this, none what so ever, not once, and it looked crystal clear!..Maybe the reason it kept missing up last tiem was b/c i was watching the game when it was on Fox and it kept lossing signal that day, is there any way i can improve fox's signal strength? If not, Football Season is over, and its not like Basketball comes on fox for me anyways, so hopelly Dish will be out w/ local HD in DC area by next year...


If you're like me, not all of your local stations are in the same location or are broadcasting at full power... so you may find you need to relocate your antenna and point it in a different direction (if it is a directional antenna) to get some channels. I found a happy medium with my setup that lets me get all the ones I care about solidly... and I can move it to a different place if I want to watch something bad enough on one of the other available channels in my area.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Dwayne, call Fairfax Antenna, $298 installed for an OTA roof antenna, and they'll locate the best signal spot on your roof. I called them after searching for any input about any local antenna installers, and I think it was avsforums that I found many good comments about FA, and they did a very nice job with mine. And yes, if your indoor is getting 85, you'll likely get 120+ with a roof ant and a booster (that RS one would have been good for that, mine works very well doing just that).


Also, with an indoor ant, you might have it in a spot that gets good ABC reception while not getting good Fox. I used to have an indoor and I would have to do antenna dances at times to get Fox for football


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## bear paws (Jan 11, 2006)

There are antenna charts avail on the net that will give you compass direction for the OTAs and distances. Can't think of sites right now but search "HD ANTENNA" and all kinds of links show up.

Also if you live in a house you can put up a good UHF only{thats all you need for most all HD} ant [ they are small] in your attic. I run 2 RS ant with their good powered variable booster. Got them in parallel and one pointing sw and one nw and pull in stuff 150 miles away. High sig 100+ on most I,m DXing all in the attic out of harms way. Cable goes out side to my DP34 switch and viola.

If you are getting 85s with the indoor you should be able to get along without a boosterr in the attic with a good cheap screen bowty ant.

Bear!


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

bear paws said:


> _There are antenna charts avail on the net that will give you compass direction for the OTAs and distances. Can't think of sites right now but search "HD ANTENNA" and all kinds of links show up. _


One of the best places to go to is http://www.antennaweb.org All you need to do is put in your nine digit zip code or your street address and it will give you all the channels in your area and the distance and directions to their towers.

I highly recommend getting an outdoor antenna and having it professionally installed (if you can do it yourself).


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

Tower Guy said:


> You first mistake; Indoor antenna
> Your second error; Radio shack
> Third miscue; indoor preamp


I actually have an indoor Radioshack amplified antenna (wow, hit all 3) that works great at 30 miles.


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## bear paws (Jan 11, 2006)

Bill R said:


> One of the best places to go to is http://www.antennaweb.org All you need to do is put in your nine digit zip code or your street address and it will give you all the channels in your area and the distance and directions to their towers.
> 
> I highly recommend getting an outdoor antenna and having it professionally installed (if you can do it yourself).


??????
Professionally/ Do it yourself. Thats a oxymoron. 

Bear!


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## Fifty Caliber (Jan 4, 2006)

While I have had great success with several of the Radioshack amplified indoor antennas, and their indoor *cable TV* amplifiers, I would not recomend combining the two. Indoor amplifiers should only be used for overcoming losses due to splitting the signal, i.e. distribution amplifiers.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

ok, on this amplifier question. I have a ChannelMaster UHF only antenna, the big square one with the 8 bow ties (smaller antennas I guess, each in an X pattern, 4 down the right, 4 down the left). when it was installed, the tech mentioned he didn't think there was any point in trying to 'adjust' or cut the bowties for specific channels, that I'd be fine without that. so I do wonder about that. 

Anyway, I have a 15db amplifier down by the 921, and I get 120+ strength most of the time on the OTA networks. If I remove the amp, I don't get signal basically. After reading some stuff here, I've begun to wonder about why I so what I'd call frequent momentary drops in signal. While the amp keeps the signal locked in most of the time, I'm still amplifying noise etc, so I haven't actually improved reception right? I've only improved the lock on the signal that is there, right? 

So, considering I'm probably 50 miles as the crow flies from the Antennas which are mainly in MD, is there any simply way to improve the strength at the antenna? Would it make any sense to mess with those bowties that the instructions for the antenna mentioned were for tweaking reception?


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## Jeff McClellan (Apr 22, 2002)

I would get a adjustable variable attenuator from Radio Shack. Do not trim the bowties.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

ok, so what is an "adjustable, variable, attenuator" and what is it's function junction?  haha 

anyone remember those old conjunction junction cartoons as a kid? why did that song have to pop in my head now, it'll take hours to get it out!! aaaacckkk!!!


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## Jeff McClellan (Apr 22, 2002)

You guys just love to poke at me.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022&cp=&kw=attenuator&parentPage=search

This fits in line from the power supply to the receiver, and will allow you to adjust your signal. I find they work about 90 percent of the time in situations like yours.


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## the_bear (Oct 18, 2004)

Rogueone said:


> ..Anyway, I have a 15db amplifier down by the 921, and I get 120+ strength most of the time on the OTA networks. If I remove the amp, I don't get signal basically. ..


I suggest moving the amp as close as possible to the antenna. You want to be amplifying the best possible signal.


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## Jeff McClellan (Apr 22, 2002)

Also make sure all your connections are tight and sealed with silicone, moisture can play havoc on a signal. What type of pre amp are you using.


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## Cold Irons (Dec 7, 2005)

Similar to Rougeone, I am in VA about 50 miles south of the towers in Wash. DC. I also have the 8-bay Channelmaster 4228. Along with my antenna purchase, I bought what I've always called a "pre-amp" - this is a 2-piece amplifier - don't remember the brand, but it wasn't a channelmaster. For this pre-amp, one small box goes up on the antenna mast with a very minimal length of coax from the antenna into this piece. The other piece goes down in the attic (again, as close to the antenna as possible) - and it plugs into an electric outlet and the coax "passes thru" this piece. In my case, I can't get digital reception without this pre-amp.

With this setup, I get great reception from Washington - all networks + PBS, etc.

As to the OP, you can DIY for an antenna install (I did mine - and have over the years done a few) - but it is some amount of effort in getting the antenna up to the roof & mounted. If you've never done one, or are not comfortable with running coax & climbing on your roof, I'd pay someone. I have also read good stuff about Fairfax Antenna - never used them.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Jeff McClellan said:


> You guys just love to poke at me.
> 
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022&cp=&kw=attenuator&parentPage=search
> 
> This fits in line from the power supply to the receiver, and will allow you to adjust your signal. I find they work about 90 percent of the time in situations like yours.


are you suggesting i'm getting too much signal and that could be causing some of my drop outs? that would be too funny!!



> Also make sure all your connections are tight and sealed with silicone, moisture can play havoc on a signal. What type of pre amp are you using.


]
the RS 15db one. it's sitting on the floor behind my TV where the cable comes up from downstairs, and feeds the 921 which is on top of the TV.



> Similar to Rougeone, I am in VA about 50 miles south of the towers in Wash. DC. I also have the 8-bay Channelmaster 4228. Along with my antenna purchase, I bought what I've always called a "pre-amp" - this is a 2-piece amplifier - don't remember the brand, but it wasn't a channelmaster. For this pre-amp, one small box goes up on the antenna mast with a very minimal length of coax from the antenna into this piece. The other piece goes down in the attic (again, as close to the antenna as possible) - and it plugs into an electric outlet and the coax "passes thru" this piece. In my case, I can't get digital reception without this pre-amp.


thought about this option. My antenna is fed thru a diplexer on my 110 feed I think. Can i even use this type of amp? The amp I have I might be able to put where this is undiplexed, guess that could help some too huh? no outlet I don't think, even though it's inches from the circuit breaker  Anyway, if I could get power for one of the remote power types that goes up by the mast, would the power part feed thru the diplexers without messing up the LNB's? I was thinking no but not sure.


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## Jeff McClellan (Apr 22, 2002)

To much signal from another station causing problems.


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## twohourride (Nov 4, 2003)

My indoor antenna works very well...my 622 (just installed) picks up 28 Dallas/Fort Worth OTA channels.


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## liferules (Aug 14, 2005)

Twohourride,

What part of DFW are you in and what indoor antenna do you have? I've tried a few RS ones and they aren't ideal in the M-streets area inside the loop in Dallas...


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## Fifty Caliber (Jan 4, 2006)

Rogueone said:


> My antenna is fed thru a diplexer on my 110 feed I think. Can i even use this type of amp? The amp I have I might be able to put where this is undiplexed, guess that could help some too huh? no outlet I don't think, even though it's inches from the circuit breaker  Anyway, if I could get power for one of the remote power types that goes up by the mast, would the power part feed thru the diplexers without messing up the LNB's? I was thinking no but not sure.


Is there any way you can run a separate feed for the antenna? I've seen situations where simply getting rid of the diplexers drastically improves reception.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

only if i run new cables, and we're talking all the way across my roof then down 2 stories to get inside. well, unless I got radical and ran it over the side and in the vent in the attic, then over to there the TV is. hmm. but then it wouldn't be easy to move the Tv.


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

Rogueone said:


> So, considering I'm probably 50 miles as the crow flies from the Antennas which are mainly in MD, is there any simply way to improve the strength at the antenna? Would it make any sense to mess with those bowties that the instructions for the antenna mentioned were for tweaking reception?


I agree with the_bear. Move the preamp to the back of the antenna.

The gain vs channel chart for your antenna, the Channel Master 4228, is in the charts on the following page. There's nothing to be gained from trimming the bow ties. They are already a bit short for the lowest UHF channels.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

so, the question remains, would putting an amp at the antenna cause problems since the signal is diplexed onto an lnb feed? I presume I'd put the power portion before the sw44.

the other idea I had is, with 3 dishes, I believe I do have 3 lines coming into the house. If i were to have the tech upgrade me to DPP lnbs, he could put 61.5 on with the others yes? and only use 2 cables. Then I could put the other on my OTA ant and use an amp up top then  of course, with all the reports of how much more sensitive the 622 is, I'm gonna try unamped first once I get one


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## bigrick (Oct 21, 2003)

It would not cause a problem, just don't use the power supply that comes with the pre amp. Us e the power from the receiver by putting in a powwer passing diplexer that would divert DC to the preamp. Like PVDP-2PP, it's about $5.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

so I change both diplexers? and that allows the power feeding up the line already to the lnb's to also power the ant amp?


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## bigrick (Oct 21, 2003)

No, just the outside one, or the one where the signal comes from the antenna. You don't want to change the one at the receiver, that would allow voltage to go in the ant port on the receiver and ruin things. You just want to allow the power to pass up to the antenna where you'll place the preamp.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

well, lets clarify things then. My in house diplexer is in the basement where the wires come into the house, before the lnb feed hits the sw44. from there, 3 cables run to my 921. did we not need to put the splitter there and not need to run 3 cables? 

where is the power coming from? the 921 or the sw44? 921 right? so power feeds from there to the sw44, then out the 44 thru the diplexer inside, then up the lnb feed to the other diplexer, then to the lnb and antenna. so if i replace the diplexer at the lnb, it will pass power to the antenna amp i would put at the antenna lead on the mast?


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## bigrick (Oct 21, 2003)

That way is fine, it allows the ota signal to come down on the same line, but not go through the switch which can reduce the signal greatly. The power still goes up from the switch to the lnbs on the same line the ota is coming down on if I am reading correctly. so, yes if you replace the one outside it will pass the power to the mast mounted amp. Check to see what kind of power needs to be supplied to the amp, as you may also need to add a power block to that preamp to reduce the volyage a little, maybe around 12 volts. They do make power passing diplexers that have different voltage outputs on a certain leg.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

thankfully RS is a Dish retailer, so likely they would have the types of devices needed


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