# Paramount Is Considering Shutting Down Showtime and Migrating Its Content to Paramount+



## b4pjoe

Paramount Is Considering Shutting Down Showtime and Migrating Its Content to Paramount+


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> Paramount Is Considering Shutting Down Showtime and Migrating Its Content to Paramount+


Another potential nail in the MVPD coffin.


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## renegade

Buh-bye. Watch those same 16 movies over and over to your heart's content.

You won't be missed.


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## CTJon

Wonder when all the cable/sat will offer if as they offer Showtime now


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## harsh

CTJon said:


> Wonder when all the cable/sat will offer if as they offer Showtime now


Paramount+ doesn't have any linear channels so carriage by MVPDs wouldn't be a thing.

Satellite wouldn't be a great place to buy a streaming-only service.

I'm not convinced that there would be a benefit to going around Paramount to get their products other than to get a a short-term promotional discount (something I often dabble in with Amazon).


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## James Long

I would not mind the content merging IF the linear channels are maintained. Or at least the top linear channels the way HBO is presented on DISH. It would be good to see the Paramount+ shows on Showtime linear for those who cannot stream.

The good news is that Showtime is a premium so if it goes away the cost goes away for all subscribers. Perhaps losing millions of paying Showtime subscribers via satellite and cable will be encouragement to Paramount to keep a linear service running as they merge into the future.


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## NashGuy

I think they're going to do what I suggested earlier this year: get rid of the Showtime Anytime app and automatically include access to Paramount+ with a subscription to Showtime via a cable TV service. You'd still get the Showtime linear channels as part of your cable package. But for streaming, you'd use the Paramount+ app, where you'd have the Essential plan with ads, plus all of your Showtime content. The regular price* for this bundle via the Paramount+ app is $11.99/mo, which is the price Comcast already charges for Showtime alone. Other cable TV providers have different prices for Showtime, but they generally all range from $10 to $12. 

If Showtime implements this change, they'll have to amend their distribution agreements with those cable services and all of them will probably set their price to right around the $12 mark. Cable subscribers who want to upgrade their Paramount+ plan from Essential to Premium could opt to do so and pay an extra $3/mo on their cable bill.

They'd likewise get rid of the standalone Showtime app, so cord-cutters who want Showtime could only get it by adding it to Paramount+ (either in that app or inside the Prime Video, Apple TV, or Roku Channel app).

If Paramount+ survives long enough, they might even eventually go so far as to only offer the Premium plan to customers who also take the Showtime add-on, i.e. offer only three plans:
Basic: $4.99/mo
Basic with Showtime: $11.99/mo
Premium with Showtime: $14.99/mo

That would be an effective way of getting more subs to watch ads, which is something all these services want to do.

*Note: To mark the intro of this new bundle in the Paramount+ app, from now through Oct. 2 if you subscribe to Paramount+ with Showtime, you get a special combo price as long as you stay subscribed: $7.99/mo for Essential or $12.99/mo for Premium. After Oct. 2, regular combo pricing will be in effect for new sign-ups: $11.99/mo for Essential or $14.99/mo for Premium.


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## 1DAVE1

They'll just jack up the cost of Paramount+ til people won't want it anymore. Greed kills


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## b4pjoe

Pretty much how all of them will end up doing it. We will see HBO and Discovery+ combined next year. Paramount+ and Showtime. Peackock has NBC and several other networks attached to it. Disney+ has Hulu, ESPN, Marvel, Pixar, Star Wars and NatGeo with it. Once FOX gets it going (TUBI-TV) there will be 5 providers and you will have to take everything with each one at much higher prices than they are now. It will be the same then as it is now with cable/sat. You have to take the junk content to get the content you want.


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## the2130

It isn't clear that this means they would be shut down the Showtime linear channel or convert it to a Paramount+ channel. Note that the article says they are considering shutting down Showtime "as a standalone service". The most likely scenario is that they offer the Showtime content as part of Paramount+, in the same way that HBO content is available with HBO Max, while continuing to offer Showtime as a premium channel on cable and satellite systems. That would make Paramount+ more attractive to subscribers while continuing to bring in revenue from Showtime.


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## hdtvluvr

Interested in this because I have Paramount+ and don't want Showtime. When I signed up for my plan over a year ago (annual subscription), it said the price wouldn't change for as long as I continued my subscription. Now that they have added Showtime the fine print has changed to: *The discounted pricing is good for as long as customers keep their bundles (or until Paramount opts to adjust the terms of the offer). *This does say *bundles* which I won't have. But it is concerning as to what will happen because in the long run if they don't honor the fine print, it might be cheaper to get the bundle now before the special ends Oct. 2


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## JoeTheDragon

the2130 said:


> It isn't clear that this means they would be shut down the Showtime linear channel or convert it to a Paramount+ channel. Note that the article says they are considering shutting down Showtime "as a standalone service". The most likely scenario is that they offer the Showtime content as part of Paramount+, in the same way that HBO content is available with HBO Max, while continuing to offer Showtime as a premium channel on cable and satellite systems. That would make Paramount+ more attractive to subscribers while continuing to bring in revenue from Showtime.


so get full / top level Paramount+ when you buy Showtime as a premium channel on cable and satellite systems?


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## tenpins

I don't believe that they'll stop offering Showtime to satellite/ cable companies. Not sure any CFO/ CEO would like to tell Wall Street or their investors that they'd be losing $'s and that it would impact earnings but then again, I've been wrong a time or 2. Have no clue what they're paid per sub but even if it's .02 cents per sub, it adds up.


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## AngryManMLS

For what it's worth they are running a package deal right now with ad supported Paramount+ along with Showtime for $7.99. Ad free Paramount+ and Showtime is $12.99. At this point that's not far off from Showtime by itself for $10.99. So yep I can see why they are talking about ending Showtime by itself and merging it with Paramount+.


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## NashGuy

the2130 said:


> It isn't clear that this means they would be shut down the Showtime linear channel or convert it to a Paramount+ channel. Note that the article says they are considering shutting down Showtime "as a standalone service". The most likely scenario is that they offer the Showtime content as part of Paramount+, in the same way that HBO content is available with HBO Max, while continuing to offer Showtime as a premium channel on cable and satellite systems. That would make Paramount+ more attractive to subscribers while continuing to bring in revenue from Showtime.


Exactly. There are still a lot of folks who subscribe to Showtime as an add-on to their cable bundle. They don't want to throw all that money away. Nor do they want to do away with Showtime as a known brand because it still has value even in the streaming world.

The comparison to what Warner did with HBO to HBO Max (and getting rid of the legacy HBO Go and HBO Now apps) is exactly right, I think.


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## NashGuy

JoeTheDragon said:


> so get full / top level Paramount+ when you buy Showtime as a premium channel on cable and satellite systems?


Given that Showtime tends to be sold by cable operators anywhere from $10 to $12 per month, and given that Paramount is now selling the entry-level ("Essential") tier of Paramount+ with ads plus Showtime together at a regular price of $11.99/mo, my guess is that what they'll do is give Showtime cable subscribers the Essential tier of Paramount+ with Showtime together in that one app. (And, of course, they'd still get Showtime linear channels and VOD on their cable box/app.) If that happens, I think you'll see all cable operators set their price for Showtime at $12/mo once it also includes Paramount+. That's what Comcast, the largest cableco in the nation, already charges for just Showtime alone.


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## harsh

AngryManMLS said:


> For what it's worth they are running a package deal right now with ad supported Paramount+ along with Showtime for $7.99. Ad free Paramount+ and Showtime is $12.99.


Ad-free Paramount+ is $9.99 by itself so this is a great deal while it lasts but not so much when the price goes up to $18 or more.

I don't think I would pay $5 for what Showtime is currently offering. Aside from any Showtime Originals (assuming they have any), Paramount+ probably has better content overall but I couldn't see myself subscribing more than a month at a time just to power through the Paramount+ originals.


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## AngryManMLS

harsh said:


> I don't think I would pay $5 for what Showtime is currently offering. Aside from any Showtime Originals (assuming they have any), Paramount+ probably has better content overall but I couldn't see myself subscribing more than a month at a time just to power through the Paramount+ originals.


While Showtime still has a few originals left their clearly best one ("Inside The NFL") is now on Paramount+. With that said I might consider taking up on their $8 a month bundle deal just so I can watch "The First Lady" and the forth coming "The Lincoln Project."


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## NashGuy

harsh said:


> Ad-free Paramount+ is $9.99 by itself so this is a great deal while it lasts but not so much when the price goes up to $18 or more.
> 
> I don't think I would pay $5 for what Showtime is currently offering. Aside from any Showtime Originals (assuming they have any), Paramount+ probably has better content overall but I couldn't see myself subscribing more than a month at a time just to power through the Paramount+ originals.


Not sure where you're getting "price goes up to $18 or more". If you want the Premium (ad-free with 24/7 feed of your local CBS station) version of Paramount+ with Showtime, the current promo price through Oct. 2 for that package is $11.99 (i.e. just $1/mo more than the regular price for the standalone Showtime streaming service). You'll stay at that price for the life of your subscription. After Oct. 2, the price will go to its ongoing regular price of $14.99/mo. (which, not coincidentally, is the same cost as ad-free HBO Max, which they clearly see as their direct competitor to Paramount+ with Showtime).

As for Showtime Originals, there are a lot of good ones over the years that I've really enjoyed. Right now I'm watching Yellowjackets and I Love That For You. Back to Life is a great British import that's still running there. In the past I watched the entirety of Homeland, Ray Donovan, The Affair, Episodes, Kidding, I'm Dying Up Here, and SMILF. (Be aware that some of those completed series are now available on other services, such as Peacock or Hulu.) Also recommend mini-series Escape at Dannemora, Patrick Melrose, The Loudest Voice, and The Comey Rule, and limited docuseries We Need to Talk About Cosby, Buried, The Reagans, Time of Death, and The Fourth Estate.

For my taste, I don't see a lot on Paramount+ Originals that look great, given that I'm not into Star Trek. Don't care about Halo either. Although I do think I'm going to give Evil a look. That one gets good reviews and has an intriguing premise.


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## harsh

NashGuy said:


> Not sure where you're getting "price goes up to $18 or more".


That comes from Paramount+ going for $9.99 and Showtime going for $10.99 by themselves. I can't see them combining the two packages for just a dollar or two more than one.


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## NashGuy

harsh said:


> That comes from Paramount+ going for $9.99 and Showtime going for $10.99 by themselves. I can't see them combining the two packages for just a dollar or two more than one.


Don't take my word for it then. Read it right on their own website:




__





Paramount+ Help Center







help.paramountplus.com





As I say, they're combining and pricing these two services to be their answer to HBO Max, which sells for $10/mo with ads in the non-HBO content (i.e. the stuff that is analogous to Paramount+) or for $15/mo for the entire thing ad-free. Either way, the prestige HBO library (i.e. the stuff that is analogous to Showtime) is always ad-free.

The next step I think they're going to do is, just as HBO got rid of their old HBO Go and HBO Now apps and replaced them with HBO Max, Showtime is going to get rid of their Showtime Anytime and Showtime apps and replace them with Paramount+ with Showtime inside that single app. Subscribe to Showtime via cable TV and you'll get Paramount+ with it. It will become impossible to subscribe to Showtime _without_ also subscribing to Paramount+, just as it's now impossible to subscribe to HBO _without_ also subscribing to HBO Max.


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## b4pjoe

Right now I am on a yearly subscription for P+ for $99 and I get Showtimee with the DIRECT Premier package. That have added a Showime hub inside of the P+ app but I can't watch Showtime from it. It wants me to change my P+ subscription to add Showtime which would mean I would be paying for Showtime twice. No thanks on that. The only place I can stream Showtime is through the Showtime Anytime app. What will happen if they get rid of the Showtime Anytime app to people like me?


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## b4pjoe

I think I will run into the same thing when they combine HBO Max and Discovery+. I get HBO Max with my DirecTV Premier package and I get the ad-free Discovery+ from Discovery. What happens when they combine the two into one app?


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## NashGuy

b4pjoe said:


> Right now I am on a yearly subscription for P+ for $99 and I get Showtimee with the DIRECT Premier package. That have added a Showime hub inside of the P+ app but I can't watch Showtime from it. It wants me to change my P+ subscription to add Showtime which would mean I would be paying for Showtime twice. No thanks on that. The only place I can stream Showtime is through the Showtime Anytime app. What will happen if they get rid of the Showtime Anytime app to people like me?


What I imagine will happen -- if the Showtime Anytime app goes away -- is that you would keep paying for Showtime through DIRECTV and still get all its content there. And you will also be able to use your DIRECTV user name and password to authenticate your Showtime subscription inside the Paramount+ app. Doing so would give you access to both the Essential (with ads) tier of Paramount+ as well as the Showtime add-on inside the Paramount+ app for free (i.e. for no additional cost beyond what you're already paying DIRECTV). It might also offer you the option to upgrade from the Essential to Premium (ad-free) tier of Paramount+ by paying a few extra bucks per month. (My guess is that would be on your DIRECTV bill, but who knows.)

For any of this to happen, though, Paramount is going to have to go to each of their Showtime distributors -- DIRECTV, Comcast, Charter, Cox, Verizon, DISH, Altice, YouTube TV, Hulu, etc. -- and amend their current contract. Paramount has reportedly already been in talks with one major distributor -- my guess is Comcast -- about this.


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## NashGuy

b4pjoe said:


> I think I will run into the same thing when they combine HBO Max and Discovery+. I get HBO Max with my DirecTV Premier package and I get the ad-free Discovery+ from Discovery. What happens when they combine the two into one app?


Most likely, you'll just be able to stop paying for Discovery+ and you'll get the forthcoming combined HBO/Discovery app at no extra cost beyond what you're paying to DIRECTV for HBO as part of your Premier package. (In other words, the same way it works now for HBO Max.)


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## b4pjoe

NashGuy said:


> What I imagine will happen -- if the Showtime Anytime app goes away -- is that you would keep paying for Showtime through DIRECTV and still get all its content there. And you will also be able to use your DIRECTV user name and password to authenticate your Showtime subscription inside the Paramount+ app. Doing so would give you access to both the Essential (with ads) tier of Paramount+ as well as the Showtime add-on inside the Paramount+ app for free (i.e. for no additional cost beyond what you're already paying DIRECTV). It might also offer you the option to upgrade from the Essential to Premium (ad-free) tier of Paramount+ by paying a few extra bucks per month. (My guess is that would be on your DIRECTV bill, but who knows.)
> 
> For any of this to happen, though, Paramount is going to have to go to each of their Showtime distributors -- DIRECTV, Comcast, Charter, Cox, Verizon, DISH, Altice, YouTube TV, Hulu, etc. -- and amend their current contract. Paramount has reportedly already been in talks with one major distributor -- my guess is Comcast -- about this.


Like I said I already pay for P+ Premium (ad-free) through Paramount so you are saying I would have to have two accounts for P+. One using my DirecTV credentials to see Showtime and ad-supported P+ and my current P+ account to watch P+ Premium (ad-free). That makes very little sense. There would have to some way I wouldn't have to login two different ways to watch what I want.


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## b4pjoe

NashGuy said:


> Most likely, you'll just be able to stop paying for Discovery+ and you'll get the forthcoming combined HBO/Discovery app at no extra cost beyond what you're paying to DIRECTV for HBO as part of your Premier package. (In other words, the same way it works now for HBO Max.)


Yeah they aren't going to give me both HBO Max and Discovery+ for the price of HBO Max right now. The head of WBD+ has already said both services are underpriced at the present time. Right now both ad-free services run $14.99+$6.99=$21.98. You know there is going to be a price increase either before or when they combine the services. My guess on the low end is $24.99 for both. On the high end $29.99.


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## NashGuy

b4pjoe said:


> Like I said I already pay for P+ Premium (ad-free) through Paramount so you are saying I would have to have two accounts for P+. One using my DirecTV credentials to see Showtime and ad-supported P+ and my current P+ account to watch P+ Premium (ad-free). That makes very little sense. There would have to some way I wouldn't have to login two different ways to watch what I want.


No. Go back and carefully read what I wrote, please. I'm saying that I think you'll be able to drop your current P+ subscription if you keep your Showtime subscription, because Showtime will eventually include P+ at no additional cost. (Although I imagine that DTV will charge $12/mo for Showtime instead of just $11/mo, and the cost of your Premier package would also go up $1 too to cover that increase.) And if you want the ad-free premium tier of P+, you might have to pay an extra $3/mo for that. So you'd probably save around $6/mo versus what you're paying now.

Now that Paramount is directly selling folks the combo of P+ (Essential) with Showtime together for just $11.99/mo, that's going to lure away some of the folks like you who pay for Showtime through their pay TV service. Comcast already charges $12/mo for just Showtime. Why pay them $12 for it when you could go directly through Paramount and get both P+ and Showtime together for the same price? I'm sure Comcast is aware of this fact and so they're talking to Paramount and asking why they can't offer their customers the same deal.


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## NashGuy

b4pjoe said:


> Yeah they aren't going to give me both HBO Max and Discovery+ for the price of HBO Max right now. The head of WBD+ has already said both services are underpriced at the present time. Right now both ad-free services run $14.99+$6.99=$21.98. You know there is going to be a price increase either before or when they combine the services. My guess on the low end is $24.99 for both. On the high end $29.99.


Yeah, I think they will sell it pretty close to the price of HBO Max now. Or for slightly more. I could see the price of HBO via cable as well as the ad-free version of the upcoming "HBO Discovery" (or whatever they call it) costing $15.99/mo, maybe $16.99. I don't think they'll be able to charge more than that. But it's not like that service is going to include everything that's currently available in both HBO Max and Discovery+. A good bit of the non-HBO, non-Discovery content is going to get pulled out, I think. Lots of kids stuff, lots of foreign stuff, most of the licensed (non-WBD-owned) content is going away. That will reduce their costs and let them license some stuff out to other services and/or offer it through their upcoming free ad-supported service. So it's a mistake to think of what's coming as a combination of the two current services. It'll basically be swapping out some of the current content in HBO Max for a bunch of reruns from the Discovery cable nets (plus those Discovery+ Originals).

If they tried to sell HBO Discovery for $24.99 (or even more!) per month, they'll get laughed off the internet and their subscriptions will plummet. Keep in mind that the majority of folks in the US with HBO Max get it at no extra cost with their HBO cable subscription. They're not going to jack those folks' price for HBO up from $15 to $25/mo (which would require a whole round of contract revisions with cable TV operators). That kind of price hike would destroy the HBO customer base. Nor do I see them making the HBO Discovery app something that costs them extra on top of what they pay for HBO.


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## b4pjoe

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, I think they will sell it pretty close to the price of HBO Max now. Or for slightly more. I could see the price of HBO via cable as well as the ad-free version of the upcoming "HBO Discovery" (or whatever they call it) costing $15.99/mo, maybe $16.99. I don't think they'll be able to charge more than that. But it's not like that service is going to include everything that's currently available in both HBO Max and Discovery+. A good bit of the non-HBO, non-Discovery content is going to get pulled out, I think. Lots of kids stuff, lots of foreign stuff, most of the licensed (non-WBD-owned) content is going away. That will reduce their costs and let them license some stuff out to other services and/or offer it through their upcoming free ad-supported service. So it's a mistake to think of what's coming as a combination of the two current services. It'll basically be swapping out some of the current content in HBO Max for a bunch of reruns from the Discovery cable nets (plus those Discovery+ Originals).
> 
> If they tried to sell HBO Discovery for $24.99 (or even more!) per month, they'll get laughed off the internet and their subscriptions will plummet. Keep in mind that the majority of folks in the US with HBO Max get it at no extra cost with their HBO cable subscription. They're not going to jack those folks' price for HBO up from $15 to $25/mo (which would require a whole round of contract revisions with cable TV operators). That kind of price hike would destroy the HBO customer base. Nor do I see them making the HBO Discovery app something that costs them extra on top of what they pay for HBO.


Well I hope you are right but they are saying right now their prices are underpriced for both. I can't see them combining the services and lowering the prices lower than they are now.


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## James Long

Reduce the content to match the price or raise the price to match the content one method will work.

Getting to a price point around $15-$16 at the most would be good.


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## b4pjoe

Reduce the content to match the price is more risky as people would be more apt to cancel their service than they would with a price increase with better content.


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## NashGuy

b4pjoe said:


> Reduce the content to match the price is more risky as people would be more apt to cancel their service than they would with a price increase with better content.


Eh, as a consumer who loves HBO, I'm not too worried about it one way or the other. I'll still subscribe at least some months out of the year for HBO Originals and the odd movie here or there, whatever else they do or don't package in with it. And beyond that, whatever the combined service looks like or is called next year, I really don't think it's going to be the final home of HBO because I don't think WBD is going to last all that long. What a sad ride Warner/HBO has been on. First AT&T of all companies bought them, then a couple years later they spun them off to Discovery and I think in 2-3 years, it'll be owned by some other company, probably Universal.


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## b4pjoe

I posted this one earlier today:









REPORT: Comcast Wants to Buy Warner Bros. Discovery...


REPORT: Comcast Wants to Buy Warner Bros. Discovery, Merge With NBCUniversal




www.dbstalk.com


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## NashGuy

NashGuy said:


> No. Go back and carefully read what I wrote, please. I'm saying that I think you'll be able to drop your current P+ subscription if you keep your Showtime subscription, because Showtime will eventually include P+ at no additional cost. (Although I imagine that DTV will charge $12/mo for Showtime instead of just $11/mo, and the cost of your Premier package would also go up $1 too to cover that increase.) And if you want the ad-free premium tier of P+, you might have to pay an extra $3/mo for that. So you'd probably save around $6/mo versus what you're paying now.
> 
> Now that Paramount is directly selling folks the combo of P+ (Essential) with Showtime together for just $11.99/mo, that's going to lure away some of the folks like you who pay for Showtime through their pay TV service. Comcast already charges $12/mo for just Showtime. Why pay them $12 for it when you could go directly through Paramount and get both P+ and Showtime together for the same price? I'm sure Comcast is aware of this fact and so they're talking to Paramount and asking why they can't offer their customers the same deal.


Further clues from Paramount's CEO in today's quarterly call that Paramount+ will soon be automatically bundled in with Showtime, much like HBO Max is automatically bundled in with HBO:

_Showtime is an area of focus for Paramount’s restructuring initiative. In recent weeks, after the exit of the premium network’s longtime leader David Nevins, other personnel moves have reflected the larger decision to bundle Showtime’s streaming service with Paramount+.

“This next chapter of Showtime is going to be particularly compelling,” Bakish said. “We have a set of in-process organizational moves that will see Showtime benefit from further integration with the rest of the company. It’ll potentially introduce new ways to create incremental value both with consumers and for distributors. It’s going to unlock some significant cost synergies.”_

Again, my prediction is that if you buy Showtime via a pay TV service (typically at about $12/mo), you'll be able to use that cable log-in to authenticate the Paramount+ app and get its Essential plan plus Showtime in that app at no additional cost. As for folks who just want Showtime as a streaming service (i.e. not as part of a cable TV service), they'll only be able to get it as an optional add-on to Paramount+. But given that standalone streaming Showtime costs $11 while Paramount+ (Essential) with Showtime is only $12, it's not a big deal -- basically just a $1/mo price hike in exchange for a lot of additional content (which may or may not interest the average Showtime subscriber). All of this would mean that the existing Showtime Anytime and Showtime apps would disappear, as the Showtime section of the Paramount+ app would replace both.


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## harsh

NashGuy said:


> Further clues from Paramount's CEO in today's quarterly call that Paramount+ will soon be automatically bundled in with Showtime, much like HBO Max is automatically bundled in with HBO:


I'm not sure I buy the relationship between HBO and HBO Max as being all that similar to the relationship between Showtime and Paramount+. Further, I suspect that Showtime may not be particularly long for the world as it is.


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## NashGuy

harsh said:


> I'm not sure I buy the relationship between HBO and HBO Max as being all that similar to the relationship between Showtime and Paramount+. Further, I suspect that Showtime may not be particularly long for the world as it is.


It's very similar. The Max part of HBO Max is stuff intended to have broader appeal and includes a lot of rerun shows and movies. (And next year will include a lot of Discovery stuff.) It's more like basic cable while HBO is the premium stuff. Similar situation with regard to Paramount+ (basic cable) versus Showtime (premium). But while Warner makes you take the whole thing, including HBO, starting at $10/mo, Paramount is going to keep Showtime as an optional add-on so that they can keep a low starting price (currently $5/mo) for Paramount+. And just as it's basically impossible to get HBO without getting access to the HBO Max app at no additional cost, I think it'll be the same for Showtime and the Paramount+ app.

As for Showtime not being around as-is much longer, I don't see Paramount killing it outright as its own service. I would bet that at least half of Showtime subscribers get it as part of their cable/pay TV service. It would be nuts for Paramount to make Showtime a streaming-only thing, available only inside the Paramount+ app. They'd immediately lose a whole lot of revenue if they did that.


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## James Long

NashGuy said:


> Further clues from Paramount's CEO in today's quarterly call that Paramount+ will soon be automatically bundled in with Showtime, much like HBO Max is automatically bundled in with HBO:


If that means my MVPD based Showtime subscription includes Paramount+ I'll take that mountain of entertainment.


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## harsh

NashGuy said:


> I would bet that at least half of Showtime subscribers get it as part of their cable/pay TV service.


I can't say I've ever seen an MVPD include Showtime in anything but their most-inclusive* package (along with HBO, Starz, et al). There are some hospitality companies that offer Showtime as their lone linear premium offering but that's a different beastie.

Making Paramount+ work as a linear product may not be a no-brainer so I'm far from convinced that they could merge the two as a MVPD product.

* I use the phrase most-inclusive as no package includes everything (except maybe the fabled DIRECTV Titanium package).


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## James Long

I would read Nash's statement as purchasing Showtime with their cable/pay TV subscription, not as a required part of their package. Being available as an add on (or even in a top tier "everything" package) makes the service more easily available than a separate online subscription.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> I would read Nash's statement as purchasing Showtime with their cable/pay TV subscription, not as a required part of their package.


That's the opposite of the HBO model as I understand it. If you want HBO Max, you have to subscribe to HBO Max through HBO and then HBO will authenticate you for HBO through your MVPD. Maybe that's just DISH.


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## b4pjoe

harsh said:


> That's the opposite of the HBO model as I understand it. If you want HBO Max, you have to subscribe to HBO Max through HBO and then HBO will authenticate you for HBO through your MVPD. Maybe that's just DISH.


My DirecTV Premier package gives me HBO. I get the full HBO Max with it. I did not have to do whatever you are saying.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> That's the opposite of the HBO model as I understand it. If you want HBO Max, you have to subscribe to HBO Max through HBO and then HBO will authenticate you for HBO through your MVPD. Maybe that's just DISH.


My HBO subscription via DISH gives me full access to HBO Max. 

The OnDemand content on the receiver is a subset of HBO's full library but my credentials give me the same access as a HBO Max online subscriber.


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> My DirecTV Premier package gives me HBO. I get the full HBO Max with it. I did not have to do whatever you are saying.


HBO Max with DIRECTV is a unique situation since it was bundled.


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## wmb

James Long said:


> My HBO subscription via DISH gives me full access to HBO Max.


Same with YouTube TV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NashGuy

harsh said:


> That's the opposite of the HBO model as I understand it. If you want HBO Max, you have to subscribe to HBO Max through HBO and then HBO will authenticate you for HBO through your MVPD. Maybe that's just DISH.


James gets what I'm saying.

OK, right now, if you get Showtime via your pay TV provider, whether Showtime is part of your top-tier main package or if it's an a la carte add-on for an extra $12 or so per month, you get access to the Showtime Anytime streaming app at no additional cost. It lets you stream the live Showtime channel (east and west) plus the full current Showtime library on-demand on the device of your choice.

All I'm saying is that I believe they're going to kill the Showtime Anytime app and instead say, "Hey, your Showtime subscription now also comes with the Paramount+ Essential plan at no additional cost! You can use that app to both stream all of Showtime as well as thousands of hours of additional content in Paramount+."

Do you not understand how that's _exactly_ the same thing that HBO did when they replaced the old HBO Go app (which was analogous to the Showtime Anytime app) with the current HBO Max app, which contains both the full HBO library plus a lot of additional stuff?

Now, for cord-cutters (as I define it, those who don't subscribe to any form of "cable TV"), right now you can get Showtime as a standalone streaming service via the Showtime app, in the same way you used to be able to get HBO as a standalone streaming service via the HBO Now app. But HBO killed the HBO Now app and replaced it with the expanded HBO Max app. Why have two different apps, one for cable subs and one for cord-cutters? I think it'll be the same deal with Showtime. They'll kill the standalone Showtime app and say, "OK, cord-cutters, if you want Showtime, you'll now need to get it as part of Paramount+," in the same way that cord-cutters who want HBO now get it as part of HBO Max.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> That's the opposite of the HBO model as I understand it.


You apparently do not understand that a satellite subscription to HBO (DISH or DirecTV) includes HBO Max. Other MVPD subscriptions also include HBO Max. Subscription purchased through the MVPD ... Not signing up directly with HBO Max and somehow getting your linear provider to honor that DTC subscription and open up the channels.

Do you subscribe to HBO via DISH or another MVPD? If so, are you not getting HBO Max?


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## harsh

James Long said:


> You apparently do not understand that a satellite subscription to HBO (DISH or DirecTV) includes HBO Max.


Not all MVPDs provide for authentication.


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## NashGuy

harsh said:


> Not all MVPDs provide for authentication.


It took a few months back in 2020 when HBO Max launched (because HBO had to renegotiate their distribution contracts with the various MVPDs), but I'm pretty sure all MVPDs that sell HBO now do authenticate for access to HBO Max. IDK, it's possible that there's some little local MVPD out there somewhere that doesn't, but not any with a significant number of customers.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> Not all MVPDs provide for authentication.


I did not say ALL. I was just correcting (again) your false statements.


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## NashGuy

Paramount CEO Bakish is saying that a price increase for the premium ad-free tier of Paramount+ is coming. Also sounds increasingly like Showtime will cease to exist as a standalone service and instead only come with Paramount+. (As I've said before, I think that will mean that Showtime cable subscribers will automatically get the basic tier of Paramount+ as part of their subscription. They'll use that app to stream Showtime, with the Showtime Anytime and standalone Showtime apps killed off.)









Paramount CEO: Price of Paramount Plus will absolutely go up soon


The CEO of Paramount Global says it's just a matter of time before the company increases the price of its Paramount Plus streaming service.




thedesk.net













“Cost Synergies” in Focus for Paramount as Fate of Stand-Alone Showtime App Is to Be Determined


CEO Bob Bakish declines to comment further on whether the Showtime streaming service will ultimately be folded into Paramount+.




www.hollywoodreporter.com





Right now, these are the options they sell:

Paramount+ (Basic): $4.99
Paramount+ (Premium): $9.99
Showtime: $10.99
Paramount+ (Basic with Showtime): $11.99
Paramount+ (Premium with Showtime): $14.99
I wonder if we might see them eliminate the second and third options above priced at $9.99 and $10.99. That way, if you want Showtime, you'd have to also take Paramount+. And if you want the Premium ad-free tier of Paramount+, you'd also have to take Showtime. Less optionality, more bundling, higher ARPU.


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## b4pjoe

I get Showtime as part of my DirecTV Premier package so if they shutdown Showtime what happens with Showtime through DirecTV? I already subscribe to Paramount+ Ad-free on my own.



> In August, Paramount folded Showtime programming into the main Paramount+ app, so that if a user is subscribed to both services they can access all of their programming through a single user interface. The stand-alone Showtime app is also still available, but reports have circulated that Paramount has been considering shutting the stand-alone service and shifting its programming to Paramount+.


I noticed that my Paramount+ Ad-free service (without Showtime subscription through Paramount+) already has Showtime content in it. How am I getting that content without a separate Showtime subscription? From the above quote it states "if a user is subscribed to both services they can access all of their programming through a single user interface" (Paramount+). But my Showtime subscription on Showtime Anytime uses my DirecTV credentials and my Paramount+ subscription uses it's own login so how am I seeing Showtime content on Paramount+?


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> I get Showtime as part of my DirecTV Premier package so if they shutdown Showtime what happens with Showtime through DirecTV? I already subscribe to Paramount+ Ad-free on my own.


This is an increasingly popular question that HBO arguably didn't set a particularly good example for.


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## b4pjoe

I didn't ask about HBO...yet. That will happen when it merges with Discovery+.


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> I didn't ask about HBO...yet. That will happen when it merges with Discovery+.


It kinda did with the incorporation of Cinemax and other content.


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## b4pjoe

I still get both HBO and Cinemax with DirecTV so what are you talking about?


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## James Long

harsh said:


> This is an increasingly popular question that HBO arguably didn't set a particularly good example for.


HBO created HBO Max which includes HBO and other content and is available as a stand alone streaming package or as an add on to many MVPD subscriptions. My DISH Network subscription to HBO includes *all* HBO Max content. What is wrong with that?

If Showtime is rolled in to Paramount+ and Showtime MVPD subscriptions include the entire Paramount+ library instead of just Showtime content that would be a good thing.


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> I still get both HBO and Cinemax with DirecTV so what are you talking about?


My point is that most streaming services that started life as linear products seem to end up as some sort of amalgam of additional streaming products and how they structure that pricing is going to need to be very carefully considered. If you have access to streaming HBO Max, what's the point of also having HBO Max and Cinemax?


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## James Long

harsh said:


> If you have access to streaming HBO Max, what's the point of also having HBO Max and Cinemax?


The cost is the same to have HBO via my MVPD. I get linear channels that I can record on Internet free storage (no restreaming needed) delivered through a familiar interface. While ALL of HBO Max's content is available via streaming much of the streamable content is available OnDemand through the familiar interface of my receiver. It is TV the way I want to watch it.

Back to the topic of this thread, I hope that Showtime being rolled into Paramount+ INCREASES the amount of content subscribers to Showtime on their MVPD receive. Even if I have to step away from my receiver to get all of the content. That would be the best case scenario.


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## b4pjoe

harsh said:


> My point is that most streaming services that started life as linear products seem to end up as some sort of amalgam of additional streaming products and how they structure that pricing is going to need to be very carefully considered. If you have access to streaming HBO Max, what's the point of also having HBO Max and Cinemax?


I think we have been through this before and I guess you still don’t understand how it works. I have HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, Starz, and the Encore movie channels that are included with my DirecTV Premier package that gives me the linear channels and OnDemand content and also gives me access to the streaming services for HBO Max, Showtime Anytime, and Starz. Not sure if Cinemax or Encore has any kind of Streaming app. There is no separate need to subscribe to these streaming services because you watch the streaming content by using your DirecTV login.

If you want to watch something fro HBO you can only watch it on the linear channel 1) if it is on the linear channel and 2) if it is on the linear channel you have to watch/record it at the specific time it is on. Using the streaming service you can watch it whenever you please. Cinemax is pretty useless these days but there are things are there that you can only get through Cinemax.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> It is TV the way I want to watch it.


Are you not _cutting off your nose to spite your face_ in passing over the Cinemax content that you're paying for because of the interface differences?

For myself, I have very little desire to watch Showtime content (much less pay extra for it) so I'm generally opposed to having Showtime rolled into Paramount+ as the only option.


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> I think we have been through this before and I guess you still don’t understand how it works.


I understand how it works. I just don't understand the drive to pay for something twice because the streaming user experience is not exactly the same.


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## NashGuy

b4pjoe said:


> I noticed that my Paramount+ Ad-free service (without Showtime subscription through Paramount+) already has Showtime content in it. How am I getting that content without a separate Showtime subscription? From the above quote it states "if a user is subscribed to both services they can access all of their programming through a single user interface" (Paramount+). But my Showtime subscription on Showtime Anytime uses my DirecTV credentials and my Paramount+ subscription uses it's own login so how am I seeing Showtime content on Paramount+?


As I understand it, you should _not_ be seeing Showtime inside of Paramount+ since you don't pay for Showtime as part of your P+ subscription but rather pay for it separately via DirecTV. Are you sure you're not just seeing a few sample Showtime episodes inside P+? If you really are getting the full thing there, you might want to double-check what you're paying for P+ to make sure that you're not paying for Showtime twice.


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## b4pjoe

harsh said:


> I understand how it works. I just don't understand the drive to pay for something twice because the streaming user experience is not exactly the same.


Then you do not understand how it works. No one is paying for anything twice. The HBO Max streaming is included with the HBO package from DIRECTV.


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## b4pjoe

NashGuy said:


> As I understand it, you should _not_ be seeing Showtime inside of Paramount+ since you don't pay for Showtime as part of your P+ subscription but rather pay for it separately via DirecTV. Are you sure you're not just seeing a few sample Showtime episodes inside P+? If you really are getting the full thing there, you might want to double-check what you're paying for P+ to make sure that you're not paying for Showtime twice.


I agree I should not be getting the Showtime content in Paramount. I pay the yearly fee for Paramount+ which is $99. Here is what I see in Paramount+. I can watch everything on there that I can watch in the Showtime Anytime app except the linear channels.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> Are you not _cutting off your nose to spite your face_ in passing over the Cinemax content that you're paying for because of the interface differences?


Why would I pay for Cinemax when I get all of HBO Max with my MVPD subscription? Pray tell what "content" am I missing?



harsh said:


> For myself, I have very little desire to watch Showtime content (much less pay extra for it) so I'm generally opposed to having Showtime rolled into Paramount+ as the only option.


Are you worried about a price bump where you are forced to pay extra for Showtime to get Paramount+?


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> No one is paying for anything twice.


Perhaps I'm overestimating the overlap. What content does the Cinemax element of your subscription bring that you couldn't already see with just an HBO Max subscription?


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Why would I pay for Cinemax when I get all of HBO Max with my MVPD subscription? Pray tell what "content" am I missing?


b4pjoe indicates there's a clear benefit to those who subscribe to both (that Cinemax at $10.00 isn't substantially covered by HBO Max at $14.99).

The bundle discount for choosing PREMIERE over ULTIMATE with add-ons (HBO, Showtime, Starz, 3 Music Choice channels, Outdoor and the DIRECTV SPORTS PACK) appears to be just barely a bargain (depending on what value you place on the Outdoor Channel).

ULTIMATE current price (All Included): $154
HBO, SHO, STARZ: $37.97
Outdoor: $4.99
DIRECTV SPORTS PACK: $13.99

Total (absent MC channels and maybe a couple other TV channels): $209.95

Premiere: $205

Savings: $4.95

Opting out of the Outdoor Channel and Cinemax could make Ultimate the better deal if there wasn't going to be something missed.


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## b4pjoe

harsh said:


> Perhaps I'm overestimating the overlap. What content does the Cinemax element of your subscription bring that you couldn't already see with just an HBO Max subscription?





harsh said:


> b4pjoe indicates there's a clear benefit to those who subscribe to both (that Cinemax at $10.00 isn't substantially covered by HBO Max at $14.99).


I never said there was any benefit. Cinemax is included in the Premier package. I rarely watch it. I subscribe to the Premier package mainly because it includes HBO, Showtime, and Starz and when I decided I wanted those premium channels it was cheaper to subscribe to the Premier package than keeping the package I had at the time and subscribing individually to those 3 packages. It just so happens that Cinemax is included also in that package and I used to watch it more when it had original content on it which it no longer does or at least very little. As I said I rarely watch Cinemax these days.



harsh said:


> The bundle discount for choosing PREMIERE over ULTIMATE with add-ons (HBO, Showtime, Starz, 3 Music Choice channels, Outdoor and the DIRECTV SPORTS PACK) appears to be just barely a bargain (depending on what value you place on the Outdoor Channel).
> 
> ULTIMATE current price (All Included): $154
> HBO, SHO, STARZ: $37.97
> Outdoor: $4.99
> DIRECTV SPORTS PACK: $13.99
> 
> Total (absent MC channels and maybe a couple other TV channels): $209.95
> 
> Premiere: $205
> 
> Savings: $4.95
> 
> Opting out of the Outdoor Channel and Cinemax could make Ultimate the better deal if there wasn't going to be something missed.


For Premier I pay $191.99. Not $205. I have not checked lately how much I am saving currently but it was significantly more than your estimate. When HBO/Discovery+ merges into one service I will more than likely downgrade my package at that time.


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## harsh

b4pjoe said:


> For Premier I pay $191.99. Not $205. I have not checked lately how much I am saving currently but it was significantly more than your estimate. When HBO/Discovery+ merges into one service I will more than likely downgrade my package at that time.


As I noted on the ULTIMATE pricing amount, I was using the current "All Included" pricing. Presumably, the pricing structure associated with your account (which may or may not have changed recently due to your account issues) offers the same pricing differential (around $51) between ULTIMATE and PREMIERE.

James insists that paying for Cinemax if you already have HBO Max is effectively double paying but you claim that it isn't. Who is right?

It may help to consider the question in the context of a subscriber that _isn't_ bundling with the DIRECTV PREMIERE or DISH America's Everything Pack packages given that is likely where most subscribers reside.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Are you worried about a price bump where you are forced to pay extra for Showtime to get Paramount+?


For myself, that may represent roughly a 50% price increase so I am quite concerned given my value assessment of what Showtime adds.


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## b4pjoe

harsh said:


> As I noted on the ULTIMATE pricing amount, I was using the current "All Included" pricing. Presumably, the pricing structure associated with your account (which may or may not have changed recently due to your account issues) offers the same pricing differential (around $51) between ULTIMATE and PREMIERE.
> 
> James insists that paying for Cinemax if you already have HBO Max is effectively double paying but you claim that it isn't. Who is right?
> 
> It may help to consider the question in the context of a subscriber that _isn't_ bundling with the DIRECTV PREMIERE or DISH America's Everything Pack packages given that is likely where most subscribers reside.


If I were paying for the Premium channels individually I would not get Cinemax. When I subscribed to the Premier package Cinemax it was still its own thing. I can't just tell DirecTV to remove Cinemax from the package and lower my price. Like I said in the near future I will be re-evaluating.


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## b4pjoe

harsh said:


> For myself, that may represent roughly a 50% price increase so I am quite concerned given my value assessment of what Showtime adds.


*Paramout+ Essential *
Stream with limited commercial interruptions for $4.99/month or save 16% off your monthly price with an annual plan* for $49.99/year.

*Paramout+ Premium (formerly Commercial Free - all the benefits remain the same!)*
Watch with no ads for just $9.99/month or save 16% off your monthly price with an annual plan* for $99.99/year (the Premium plan DOES include your local live CBS station).

*Paramount+ Essential plan + SHOWTIME**

$11.99*/month 
$119.99*/year 
The Essential plan does NOT include your local live CBS station, but NFL on CBS and UEFA Champions League will be available via separate live feeds.

*Paramount+ Premium plan + SHOWTIME**

$14.99*/month
$149.99*/year


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## harsh

I find no fault with your math and you should find no fault with mine. $14.99/month (I wouldn't contemplate an annual subscription to Paramount+ unless it were 50% off like the deal I just grabbed) is roughly 50% more than $9.99. That Showtime comes for only $5 more just isn't good enough for _me_.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> James insists that paying for Cinemax if you already have HBO Max is effectively double paying but you claim that it isn't. Who is right?


Harsh is intentionally lying about the content of my posts and should no longer be trusted to post anything taken seriously.


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## b4pjoe

James Long said:


> Harsh is intentionally lying about the content of my posts and should no longer be trusted to post anything taken seriously.


He quoted your post #66 where you never said any such thing. In post #62 he posted:


harsh said:


> I understand how it works. I just don't understand the drive to pay for something twice because the streaming user experience is not exactly the same.


In typical Harsh fashion when someone proves him wrong he tries to transfer the blame on to others.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Harsh is intentionally lying about the content of my posts and should no longer be trusted to post anything taken seriously.





James Long said:


> Why would I pay for Cinemax when I get all of HBO Max with my MVPD subscription? Pray tell what "content" am I missing?


How did you not imply that if you have HBO Max, a Cinemax subscription is paying for content you were already entitled to?

I if misinterpreted what you said, show me the error of my ways rather than proclaiming to all that I'm a liar.


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## NashGuy

b4pjoe said:


> I agree I should not be getting the Showtime content in Paramount. I pay the yearly fee for Paramount+ which is $99. Here is what I see in Paramount+. I can watch everything on there that I can watch in the Showtime Anytime app except the linear channels.
> 
> View attachment 32695


Yeah, definitely appears that you're subscribed to P+ with Showtime, even if you're not paying for it. Guess it's a mistake on their part.

If you look in the Live TV section, I'll bet you'll find the east and west live feeds of the main Showtime channel.


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## b4pjoe

Nope they are not in the Live TV section but they are in the Showtime section. One for Showtime East (LIVE) and Showtime West (LIVE). Had to scroll down further to find it. So I am getting the East and west linear feeds.

UPDATE: Yesterday it would let me watch the Showtime content. Today I can still see the Showtime content but if I try to watch it a screen pops up telling me how to upgrade my plan. Maybe they had a preview going on or some kind of glitch. Not sure but I now cannot watch Showtime on the Paramount+ app so it is working correctly now.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> How did you not imply that if you have HBO Max, a Cinemax subscription is paying for content you were already entitled to?
> 
> I if misinterpreted what you said, show me the error of my ways rather than proclaiming to all that I'm a liar.


You are a liar because you claimed that I "insisted" that people were paying twice for the same content when I never even stated that people were paying twice (or double). Now you're back pedaling to "imply" but the reality is you post lies.

People can read my posts - there is no reason for you to lie about their content. There is no need for you to interpret anyone else's posts on this forum for other readers either (such as telling us what b4pjoe said). If people are unclear about other poster's writing they can ask the person who posted without your interference and false statements.


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## satcrazy

dropped 250 package to 200, and added paramount +. Encore channels were beyond stale. Next will be Magellan, then discovery plus. So far haven't missed a thing in the previous 250 package, and I'm under $100.00. It looks like supplementing streaming channels with cheaper packages is the way to go.


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## Bender The Lab

satcrazy said:


> dropped 250 package to 200, and added paramount +. Encore channels were beyond stale. Next will be Magellan, then discovery plus. So far haven't missed a thing in the previous 250 package, and I'm under $100.00. It looks like supplementing streaming channels with cheaper packages is the way to go.


Wait till you realize you don’t need Satellite, the majority of content on Live TV is on streaming services, the only thing I watch now Live is CNN and Big Ten Channel.


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