# No Year in the info panel



## skitzel (Mar 4, 2006)

Don't ask me why this peeves me so badly, but I hate the fact that there is no year included in the description of shows when using the "info" button. It seems like that would be a no-brainer for inclusion.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

It is all based on the Guide Data that is sent....

The one exclusion (as compared to the DTivos), is that you can't access the original air date field... BUT... we don't know for 100% sure if that is a standard piece of information in the guide data, or something "TiVoed" into the data stream..


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

I believe that it must be in the standard data stream since my plain old Philips 5540C receiver always shows the original air date.


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## laceyd (Mar 6, 2006)

zortapa said:


> I believe that it must be in the standard data stream since my plain old Philips 5540C receiver always shows the original air date.


As does my old Hughes GAEB0


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It is all based on the Guide Data that is sent....
> 
> The one exclusion (as compared to the DTivos), is that you can't access the original air date field... BUT... we don't know for 100% sure if that is a standard piece of information in the guide data, or something "TiVoed" into the data stream..


So Earl,

How about asking your contact if there are multiple guide streams for each DVR? Does Tivo have their own stream and the R15 have theirs?

I would guess all DTV DVRs are working from the same guide stream. Just not as efficiently.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Will do....


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So Earl,
> 
> How about asking your contact if there are multiple guide streams for each DVR? Does Tivo have their own stream and the R15 have theirs?
> 
> I would guess all DTV DVRs are working from the same guide stream. Just not as efficiently.


The guide data for TiVo, Microsoft, Replay TV and several others is provided by Tribune Media Services. DIRECTV's guide data doesn't seem to be as detailed as TiVo's so I'll bet it comes from another source.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Very interesting.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

tmj30122 said:


> The guide data for TiVo, Microsoft, Replay TV and several others is provided by Tribune Media Services. DIRECTV's guide data doesn't seem to be as detailed as TiVo's so I'll bet it comes from another source.


It's cut & pasted from the El Segundo newspaper.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

tmj30122 said:


> The guide data for TiVo, Microsoft, Replay TV and several others is provided by Tribune Media Services. DIRECTV's guide data doesn't seem to be as detailed as TiVo's so I'll bet it comes from another source.


What's even stranger is that on the UTV if you looked at your MYVOD screen the info that it showed about the show would be different then the full info screen. Sometimes you'd see some like "Daniel leaves the SGC to explore....." you'd see the .... and would expect that looking at the info would show you the rest of that statement but then you'd get some like this "SG1 finds a new world where there is no crime. SG1 must find Daniel before times runs out." (these are not real program descriptions but you get the point) It was almost like there were two sets of guide data that it was looking at. It was really annoying if you wanted to read the rest of the description. I wonder if this is D*'s issue if there are using the second set of data?


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## skitzel (Mar 4, 2006)

I would like to see actors and actresses as well as directors name in the info. When expanded for further info additional info would seem intelligent.:grin:


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ISWIZ said:


> It's cut & pasted from the El Segundo newspaper.


Good one ISWIZ....I really did :icon_lol: on that.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

skitzel said:


> I would like to see actors and actresses as well as directors name in the info. When expanded for further info additional info would seem intelligent.:grin:


On the Tivo feed, or Tribune feed as mentioned above, here's a sample of the info for one Stargate episode:


```
Program 2601668/10 {
  Version        = 2
  ServerId       = A0020f101
  ServerVersion  = 4
  Actor          = {Anderson|Richard Dean} Shanks|Michael Tapping|Amanda Judge|Christopher {Davis|Don S.} Rothery|Teryl
  ApgProgram     = 2601668/11
  DescLanguage   = English
  Description    = {The president sends a small crew to film standard operational procedures at the Stargate Command base.}
  EpisodeTitle   = Heroes
  Genre          = 384 107 105 124
  IsEpisode      = 1
  OriginalAirDate = 12461
  RootServerId   = A001d9a04
  Series         = 2304793/-1
  ShowType       = 5
  Title          = {Stargate SG-1}
  TmsId          = EP2254210161
  TvRating       = 4
  IndexPath      = /Server/A0020f101:3:4:0
}
```
So it appears that in addition to DTV making the decision to "re-invent" the wheel where DVRs are concerned they also made the decision to "re-invent" the guide data stream? Is this a smart move or a "cheap" move? Almost every other DVR gets it's guide data from the same source and DTV is attempting to create their own? Amazing.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> On the Tivo feed, or Tribune feed as mentioned above, here's a sample of the info for one Stargate episode:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


My guess is that there would be a legal ramification if they used the data stream supplied by TiVo. Seeing as thats mostly what you supposedly pay for with TiVo that would in essence be service theft. So if this is the case they will need to hire a team of people as TiVo has done in order to have the same type of guide data.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> My guess is that there would be a legal ramification if they used the data stream supplied by TiVo. Seeing as thats mostly what you supposedly pay for with TiVo that would in essence be service theft. So if this is the case they will need to hire a team of people as TiVo has done in order to have the same type of guide data.


Did you read the post by tmj30122?

Tivo, Microsoft, Replay TV and others use a guide provided by Tribune Media Services. Looking at this company's web site it appears to be so. Even DirecTV is listed as one of their customers. Take a look, is Tivo providing the stream to DTivo or is DTV already purchasing the same stream from TMS?

If the later is the case, then the fault lies in the fact that the R15 programmers cannot properly incorporate the same guide data available to the R15?

Many times the "Guide Data" is blamed for R15 problems. If DTV is a client of TMS, which the TMS site claims, then all DTV DVRs have access to the same guide data. Cripe, all DTV receivers have access to the same data.

It does not appear there is any "Tivo Massaged Guide Data". All there is the the same data DTV uses for all of their receivers.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I took it that tmj30122 was speculating that it could come from a different source.

NOTE: I haven't gotten a reply yet from my contact, so this is just my speculation.

It is probably the same core source of data.... BUT...
My guess is that DirecTV has an application provided to them by DirecTV... to take that Tribune data, and bust it up into the TiVo "format".

That application may have all of TiVo's logic and "tweaks" to overcome certain things, and get it into a format the the TiVo products know how to use.
That application is also 5-6 years mature now.

Now on the R15... the equivalent program, isn't as mature... and is still evolving. Sure it should evolve quicker... BUT... extra pain and time need to be taken to make sure they are not troucing on TiVo technology....

My Guess... In order to make things "faster" from a guide point of view.. the streamlined the contents of the guide (what is loaded into the R15's memory). 
So pieces that "we" think are important, that we where used to from other DVR implementations, may have been removed as they didn't have a direct purpose in the R15's logic.

That is just a guess on my part, and for once... I don't have any "special" knowledge in this area... this is just me, posulating from a programers/developer's point of view.


Wolf: Where did you get that guide dump?
I wonder if it is possible to get a full 14 day's dump (the entire stream)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

KOT - 
Is there a Consumer Level Data Feed that can be access? I have alway be curious to write my "own" scheduler... just to see how difficult it would be.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Did you read the post by tmj30122?
> 
> Tivo, Microsoft, Replay TV and others use a guide provided by Tribune Media Services. Looking at this company's web site it appears to be so. Even DirecTV is listed as one of their customers. Take a look, is Tivo providing the stream to DTivo or is DTV already purchasing the same stream from TMS?
> 
> ...


Well it is aknown fact that TiVo enhances the guide data and corrects many issues with it. I have no idea what is done with the UTV stream if anything. So now if TiVo is in fact telling a lie and doing nothing to the data them I would like to see that fact as thats their base line of what I pay for every month.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl,

I also viewed the comment from tmj30122 as just a comment. Just doing further research on TMS they fully acknowledge that DirecTV is one of their customers. Really it makes sense. No need for everyone to do the work, buy it from the best place for the info. Along with DTV they also listed Time Warner and Tivo as customers of their guide service. So to me, it seemed tmj30122 had good info as to the guide source.

So, somewhere in that magical SAT data stream is the guide info. And I do believe it's one set of info as DTV is listed as a TMS customer. All a R15 programmer needs to do is grab the data and interpret it. I'm sure they have a layout of each byte and bit as DTV pays for it. The choices of the development team as to what to use or what to display are the choices of the development team. You make a good choice you get a raise. You make a bad choice you get fired. Or so the theory goes.

I do not believe the Tivo units have any special super secret magic that they are running their version of the guide through. They just process the guide correctly.

First run/repeat issues should very well be fixed in the next release of the R15 software. Actually, First Run/Repeat issues should have been the very first beta test scenario. Failing that, no release of the product.

I see no reason why they cannot handle First Run/Repeats IF the R15 and DTivos work from the same guide data provided by TMS.

Maturity is in the eye of the beholder. From a maturity level, the R15 still should not have been released to the public as after three months it still cannot dependably perform the tasks of a simple DVR.

But then again, we're all just guessing.

BTW, The guide dump was from browsing the MFS on a DTivo via TivoWebPlus. There's also much more data the Tivos store from the guide data.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> Well it is aknown fact that TiVo enhances the guide data and corrects many issues with it. I have no idea what is done with the UTV stream if anything. So now if TiVo is in fact telling a lie and doing nothing to the data them I would like to see that fact as thats their base line of what I pay for every month.


State a source for this.

*EDIT: Sorry, that sounded a bit harsh after I re-read it.

Could you please state your source for this known fact?*


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I wonder if it is possible to get a full 14 day's dump (the entire stream)


You could off a Dtivo. Just a program to write. TivoWebPlus can do searches of this into so anyone could pull it off. Wanna spend time coding TCL?

I've played with the source and it can get REAL FUN. If you know what I mean.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> You could off a Dtivo. Just a program to write. TivoWebPlus can do searches of this into so anyone could pull it off. Wanna spend time coding TCL?
> 
> I've played with the source and it can get REAL FUN. If you know what I mean.


Ahh... no thank you... TCL is not my cup of tea....
Too bad there wasn't an XML source for it...


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> Many times the "Guide Data" is blamed for R15 problems. If DTV is a client of TMS, which the TMS site claims, then all DTV DVRs have access to the same guide data. Cripe, all DTV receivers have access to the same data.
> 
> It does not appear there is any "Tivo Massaged Guide Data". All there is the the same data DTV uses for all of their receivers.


You are correct. The OP asked about year data. It's there in the data stream. I have a Hughes e86 which displays it just fine, and the third and fourth posts in this thread mentioned two other receivers which also display it.

I don't know why people have to try to excuse the r15's shortcomings by blaming it on "bad guide data".


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

It is not "excusing" the R15 for it shortcomings... 

There is no doubt that there is "occasionally" bad data..

(Aka... take a look at Oprah, every episode is marked as First run and Repeat, aka why the TiVos rely on First Run Date)

If the Guide was perfect, mint, and everything was the way it should be it would be a "non-factor".

There are pieces in there, say my news for example. There is no distinct Episode number for my 10pm news, the description is identical.. Even the Beloved TiVo doesn't get it right (I have to record it as repeats, as it applies the 28day rule)

So... no, most of the "issues" with recordings are not related to the Guide Data. But they are a contributing factor, and why the code it self may be far more complex then "we" think it is. (Hence why I would love to have access to the guide stream, just for kicks...)


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ahh... no thank you... TCL is not my cup of tea....
> Too bad there wasn't an XML source for it...


Have fun!
http://labs.zap2it.com/ztvws/ztvws_login/1,1059,TMS01-1,00.html


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

walters said:


> Have fun!
> http://labs.zap2it.com/ztvws/ztvws_login/1,1059,TMS01-1,00.html


SWEET!!!!!!!!! Thanks.

I guess I can say... it is a SAD thing, that this is so intresting to me....
I am a geek after all, border line on Nerd


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> SWEET!!!!!!!!! Thanks.
> 
> I guess I can say... it is a SAD thing, that this is so intresting to me....
> I am a geek after all, border line on Nerd


No, the sad thing is that there are folks of which this is their job, and they are not as interested.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> No, the sad thing is that there are folks of which this is their job, and they are not as interested.


No whats even more sad is there are a LOT of people thoughout application dev that aren't interested in making a good product. Just getting it out the door and on to the next. OH WELL they keep people like me employed I guess.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> So, somewhere in that magical SAT data stream is the guide info. And I do believe it's one set of info as DTV is listed as a TMS customer. All a R15 programmer needs to do is grab the data and interpret it. I'm sure they have a layout of each byte and bit as DTV pays for it. The choices of the development team as to what to use or what to display are the choices of the development team. You make a good choice you get a raise. You make a bad choice you get fired. Or so the theory goes.


There must be alot of people fired in the R15 development team. Maybe that's why it's taking so long to fix it? They have to start all over with a new team each week.:lol: :lol:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Now Now.....

They are working on it... (I know it for a fact)....

It isn't like they are working in .NET or other places... they are working on code that has to run on a custom piece of hardware... If you have ever tried it, it isn't the easiest thing in the world to debug....

PLUS...... You can only simulate so much in testing. (you could run the scheduler through a rapid clock to see if everything goes correctly, but if there is another part of the unit that is causing the problem... that simulation wouldn't show that)... only a real live system test would, which would take days to test....

I know everyone thinks they are just sitting there, doing nothing... That couldn't be farther from the truth.

I plan to send an message later today, to my contact to see if I can get an update on when the next release may be.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> No whats even more sad is there are a LOT of people thoughout application dev that aren't interested in making a good product. Just getting it out the door and on to the next. OH WELL they keep people like me employed I guess.


That is not exclusive to any-one company.... I have that problem here at my job with other developers... They simply want to just get it done (based on inputs and outputs), they have no passion or care on what they write. (not saying that is how the DTV employees are, but it is a general notion that if based on our staff here... covers 60-70% of developers out there)... but that is a discussion for another day... another thread.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Now Now.....
> 
> They are working on it... (I know it for a fact)....
> 
> ...


 From my perspective I don't think "everyone thinks they are sitting there, doing nothing". 
I think that most of us saw the potential for this box, were then very disappointed, and are now VERY eager to see it at least get to first base. 
A double or triple would be nice but no more walks. (Hey, it's spring, baseball metaphor's allowed)


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Now Now.....
> 
> They are working on it... (I know it for a fact)....
> 
> ...


I know they are. I'm glad they are listening to us. I just couldn't help myself.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It isn't like they are working in .NET or other places... they are working on code that has to run on a custom piece of hardware... If you have ever tried it, it isn't the easiest thing in the world to debug....


I'd guess they're working in C++. All you need is the proper cross-compiler for your development platforms and production platforms. Folks writing code for a Palm for instance can develop and test in a Windows environment then compile for the Palm and do "production" testing.

This should be no different than embedded systems such as a cell phone, GPS unit or a digital camera.


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## skitzel (Mar 4, 2006)

Well I for one really like a good smattering of info when i hit "more info". 

Good thread, I'm definately getting an idea of this process. I will continue to make "constructive criticizm" here. For what it's worth.


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