# 1 Off Air Channel not coming in on AM21



## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

I just added an AM21 to my HR22. It works great, easy set up and no need to switch back and forth for the antenna anymore. Plus the additional functionality to DVR off air programming.

In my market, Kansas City, like so many markets, there are quite a few more off-air channels than DTV offers thru their stream. 

When I added the AM21 and plugged in my powered off-air antenna, the setup asked me for my zip code. Then it appeared to access the data stream for the off-air channels offered in my market. It populated all channels except one - AntennaTV (offered thru my local Fox affiliate). I scanned again to try to obtain this missing channel, and entered the zip code of the Fox station about 12 miles from my house. Keep in mind that this channel comes in clear when I plug my antenna directly into my TV. The rescan and reset still didnt populate the channel to the guide. So, I called Directv. The CSR was very helpful and said that he would escalate the issue to one of his engineers. I am not holding out much hope for resolution via that avenue.

It appears as if Directv doesn't have a slot in the channel guide for this station to populate. The CSR didn't have a list of all of the off-air channels offered in any market - so the above mentioned theory could not be confirmed with regards to there not being a "slot" for this channel in the guide.

In the meantime, all other channels in my market have populated as well as 2 weeks worth of guide info.

Has anyone had a similar issue in their market where there was an off-air channel within range that didn't show up in the guide? Does anyone have a list that Directv uses for off-air?

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!


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## dettxw (Nov 21, 2007)

Your DVR does use Tribune guide data for populating the Guide and tuning OTA channels so if they don't have complete data you're SOL with an HR22.
You've covered one of the bases, made an attempt to get the Antenna TV subchannel added.
The other thing that you can do is to obtain an HR34, which in conjunction with an AM21 will actually scan for channels, allowing you to tune all channels with sufficient signal strength (like your Antenna TV). Now you may not get any useful data in your Guide, but you can watch the channel, just may need to go to the channel's website for a schedule and may need to manually set up a recording.


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## Floyd (Nov 10, 2004)

I don't think your problem is related to signal strength. DirecTV gets it's local channel program information/listings from a service called zap2it(Tribune Media Services). Then they send this info up to the DTV satellite for everyone's receiver to download, based on your receiver zip code entered during the receiver setup for local channels. There is a way to enter a second zipcode for those people who have ajoining TV markets.

DirecTV does not allocate enough bandwith on their system to carry every locally broadcast station, and only carries the larger or most popular channels. I don't know how they decide which ones to carry, but there is market research available to show which channels are most watched. I suppose that if they got enough inquiries about a certain channel they would look into the possibility of adding that channel.

With your receiver/tuner you can only tune in the channels that DirecTV provides programming info for. I read that the HR34 will actually tune all the channels, but haven't comfirmed this, and don't know how those extra channels would display in the guide channel list.

You can check here to see which channels are available in your zipcode: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/packProg/localChannels.jsp?assetId=900018&_requestid=3064556


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## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

Thanks for the reply. Is there a way to alert Tribune Media that this channel is missing from their list? I cant be the only one in my market with this issue?

If I am successful in getting them to update (i know a long shot) does DTV need to update their side as well or is it a passthru?

Thanks!


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## Floyd (Nov 10, 2004)

Since Dtv is probably the one paying for this data, they would have to initiate any changes or additions to the service.


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## Mariah2014 (Apr 21, 2006)

The H20, which wasn't a dvr used to pull in more stations as well from ota. However, they had regular schedule listed for each it didn't have tv schedule info for.


Floyd said:


> I don't think your problem is related to signal strength. DirecTV gets it's local channel program information/listings from a service called zap2it(Tribune Media Services). Then they send this info up to the DTV satellite for everyone's receiver to download, based on your receiver zip code entered during the receiver setup for local channels. There is a way to enter a second zipcode for those people who have ajoining TV markets.
> 
> DirecTV does not allocate enough bandwith on their system to carry every locally broadcast station, and only carries the larger or most popular channels. I don't know how they decide which ones to carry, but there is market research available to show which channels are most watched. I suppose that if they got enough inquiries about a certain channel they would look into the possibility of adding that channel.
> 
> ...


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## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

What really grinds my gears here is that the only channel I wanted was the one that I dont get because of the short coming from DTV not updating or refusing to update the feed from Tribune.

They should put this scenario as a disclaimer in their marketing materials for the AM21.


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## dettxw (Nov 21, 2007)

HammerHead001 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Is there a way to alert Tribune Media that this channel is missing from their list? I cant be the only one in my market with this issue?
> 
> If I am successful in getting them to update (i know a long shot) does DTV need to update their side as well or is it a passthru?
> 
> Thanks!


As far as I know you have to go through DirecTV but I don't have a feel as to how successful people have been in the past at getting this kind of thing resolved. Without knowing for sure I guess I'm pessimistic about getting action from a large company. We'll know more when you report back!

One more thing, some people report that they get different channels on multiple setup attempts, that a missing channel might show up after a few tries. I'm missing one on the HR24-500 right now but multiple setup attempts haven't helped so far. I haven't gotten too worked up about it as the missing OTA channel is available on the HR34 (which scanned it) and also as a LiL (Local into Local, or a local channel from the satellite).


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

HammerHead001 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Is there a way to alert Tribune Media that this channel is missing from their list? I cant be the only one in my market with this issue?
> 
> If I am successful in getting them to update (i know a long shot) does DTV need to update their side as well or is it a passthru?
> 
> Thanks!


Don't hold your breath waiting for DirecTV to add Antenna TV in your market. It's been missing from the LA market for about two years now, although I don't know about what may have happened at DirecTV since last October when I switched to FiOS, which carries that channel locally.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

While the list comes from Tribune (Zap2It), DirecTV doesn't necessarily add every sub-channel to their guide, even though Tribune lists it. For example, I use windows media center powered by Zap2It and get absolutely every sub-channel in my market with my OTA and cable tuners. With DirecTV, I was missing several on both my HR20's (with built-in OTA) and my AM21's. I don't know why DirecTV is so averse to carrying complete guide data or even just scanning all available sub-channels like every other tv tuner on the planet does, but they are.

Dish receivers like the 722k and it's tuner module do scan for all sub-channels. It may not have guide data for all of them, but at least you can watch them and set manual timers if necessary. That would be a good solution for DirecTV as well. If they don't want to carry the guide data on a few channels, I can live with that. Just let me tune every channel I can receive.

Many have reported that the HR34 does scan. If so, there's one solution for you.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

dettxw said:


> The other thing that you can do is to obtain an HR34, which in conjunction with an AM21 will actually scan for channels, allowing you to tune all channels with sufficient signal strength (like your Antenna TV). Now you may not get any useful data in your Guide, but you can watch the channel, just may need to go to the channel's website for a schedule and may need to manually set up a recording.


you ever try and do a manual record on a channel which has "regular programming' as it's program description (exactly what you get with channels not appearing in the guide)? I have yet to get one to record...


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

fluffybear said:


> you ever try and do a manual record on a channel which has "regular programming' as it's program description (exactly what you get with channels not appearing in the guide)? I have yet to get one to record...


I wouldn't expect pressing Rec in the Guide to work, but can't you set a manual timer?


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Try adding a secondary DMA(market)from your next closest town, possibly that station may be listed there, especially if the station is midway between the two markets.


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## Floyd (Nov 10, 2004)

mdavej said:


> I don't know why DirecTV is so averse to carrying complete guide data or even just scanning all available sub-channels like every other tv tuner on the planet does, but they are.


I can think of several reasons why they don't encourage off-air viewing:

1. Some of the channels in fringe areas are poorly received. This may result in complaints to CSR's, and make DTV look worse than cable for those channels.

2. DTV may have to pay extra to have the additional channel listings sent from Tribune Media Services.

3. Some metro areas have dozens of off-air channels, making the dozen from DTV look like slim pickins. Why would someone want to settle for a dozen DTV local channels and PAY $6/mo for them when then could get 40-50 channels off air for free?

4. It cost more to produce a receiver with off-air tuners, and DTV doesn't get any return for it. They probably don't make much money on the AM-21 either.

5. DTV likes getting the Locals fee from millions of their customers who don't want to have an antenna or can't receive the local channels well from an antenna.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Friends... The reason the channel isn't available is because DirecTV ran out of bandwidth for guide data. In other words, they won't allow the station to be seen thru the AM21 because they're out of room.

Your equipment is fine. This is just the way it is with D*.

I'm in the Philly DMA, and I think I'm missing at least 5 OTA channels. Got so bad I just dropped OTA on my HR20 and fed the signal directly to my TV. Two advantages - better tuner on my TV, and I get all the channels.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

Floyd said:


> I can think of several reasons why they don't encourage off-air viewing...


All good reasons. But they've lost at least one sub (me) partially because of poor OTA support.



wilbur_the_goose said:


> Friends... The reason the channel isn't available is because DirecTV ran out of bandwidth for guide data.


That is one thing I have a very hard time believing. A single frame of HD content requires far more bandwidth than a few pages of text. I think they simply don't want to do it.

I'm grateful sat providers at least partially support OTA. Hardly any of their competitors do. But I still think they could make everyone happy at very little cost if all their receivers simply scanned for channels like the HR34. If guide data is too expensive or hard to manage, then I can live without it. Just give me the channels. That worked fine with Dish. It's a non-issue with cable since they carry all local sub-channels and guide data anyway.

There are only a couple of reasons I need OTA:

- Before the HR34 (D*) or Hopper (E*), it was the only way to record several networks at once. Those new receivers have solved that problem.

- Most if not all sub-channels aren't available any other way if you don't have cable. I realize they don't have the bandwidth to carry every sub-channel in every market. So I appreciate that the new receivers like the HR34 can scan them all. Hopefully they will keep this feature in future receivers.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Friends... The reason the channel isn't available is because DirecTV ran out of bandwidth for guide data. In other words, they won't allow the station to be seen thru the AM21 because they're out of room.
> 
> Your equipment is fine. This is just the way it is with D*.
> 
> I'm in the Philly DMA, and I think I'm missing at least 5 OTA channels. Got so bad I just dropped OTA on my HR20 and fed the signal directly to my TV. Two advantages - better tuner on my TV, and I get all the channels.


It's not a bandwidth issue. It's the size of the database that the AM21 can handle that is the issue. DirecTV hasn't been adding new channels to the OTA database for at least a year now, probably more.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> It's not a bandwidth issue. It's the size of the database that the AM21 can handle that is the issue. DirecTV hasn't been adding new channels to the OTA database for at least a year now, probably more.


If the database really resides in the AM21 and is limited to a dozen channels or so, then DirecTV is really clueless. That makes no sense whatsoever.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

billsharpe said:


> Don't hold your breath waiting for DirecTV to add Antenna TV in your market. It's been missing from the LA market for about two years now, although I don't know about what may have happened at DirecTV since last October when I switched to FiOS, which carries that channel locally.


No actually DIRECTV has been carrying Antenna TV in its OTA database since it went live in the LA market on KTLA 5-2 back in Dec. of 2010.

You may be confusing it with the situation of "This TV" which was bumped to sub-channel 5-3 in the process that DIRECTV still refuses to add to its database and has now been missing for over a year and a half.

I receive it now on my HR34 which scans OTA, but with no guide information of course. Have to consult their online guide and use manual recordings for it, though certainly better than not receiving it at all on the other receiver models.

Although I think the THR-22 HD-TIVO scans off-air and gets it as well.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

mdavej said:


> If the database really resides in the AM21 and is limited to a dozen channels or so, then DirecTV is really clueless. That makes no sense whatsoever.


It's not "limited to a dozen or so". It's a huge database containing all of the OTA channels in the US. DirecTV didn't foresee the recent rapid growth in OTA channels nationwide.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

mdavej said:


> I wouldn't expect pressing Rec in the Guide to work, but can't you set a manual timer?


Yes, that's exactly how to do it. If he has an HR34, he can record the channel he wants if he receives it well enough. None of the other HR boxes are going to work, as they don't permit a scan, so are limited to what D* has in the database from Tribune.

So, if the OP has an HR34, set up a manual recording and be grateful, as those of us without the scanning function (all of us except HR34 owners), are SOL.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

mdavej said:


> I wouldn't expect pressing Rec in the Guide to work, but can't you set a manual timer?


I have had manual record set up for 5pm on Saturday on 36-3 (Antenna TV which in my guide shows as 'REGULAR SCHEDULE') for several month now and have yet to have it record a single thing. 
This is why I asked dettwx if he had ever tried it as I'm now beginning to question if I just have a faulty AM21N.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> It's not "limited to a dozen or so". It's a huge database containing all of the OTA channels in the US. DirecTV didn't foresee the recent rapid growth in OTA channels nationwide.


But why do the receivers need to store the entire OTA database?

I thought they merely search through the off-air database continuously cycled through the satellite stream for the channel information of markets pertaining to the zip code(s) entered during the antenna setup which is then stored.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

fluffybear said:


> I have had manual record set up for 5pm on Saturday on 36-3 (Antenna TV) for several month now and have yet to have it record a single thing. This is why I asked dettwx if he had ever tried it as I'm now beginning to question if I just have a faulty AM21N.


I've tried manual records of OTA channels found on my HR34 via scan and they've all worked. Are you sure there's something on the channel at the time you are recording? Have you tuned to the channel at that time? I ask because some of the newfound OTA channels in my area are only part time.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> But why do the receivers need to store the entire OTA database?


I've never seen that question answered.



HoTat2 said:


> I thought they merely search through the off-air database continuously cycled through the satellite stream for the channel information of markets pertaining to the zip code(s) entered during the antenna setup which is then stored.


It's been said the OTA database is a flat text file on the AM21. Entering zip codes only tells the unit what channels to actually display.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

hasan said:


> Yes, that's exactly how to do it. If he has an HR34, he can record the channel he wants if he receives it well enough. None of the other HR boxes are going to work, as they don't permit a scan, so are limited to what D* has in the database from Tribune.
> 
> So, if the OP has an HR34, set up a manual recording and be grateful, as those of us without the scanning function (all of us except HR34 owners), are SOL.


I'll ask you the same, Have you actually tried it and got it to work? Just because this is the way things should work does not always mean it does

Have you been able to access channels such as this (channels without program guide data) from a favorite list? I can save these channels to a favorite list (if I edit the list, they are listed). However, these channels will not appear in the program guide under that favorite list nor can I directly access them without having to change to my listing to ALL channels.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

RunnerFL said:


> I've tried manual records of OTA channels found on my HR34 via scan and they've all worked. Are you sure there's something on the channel at the time you are recording? Have you tuned to the channel at that time? I ask because some of the newfound OTA channels in my area are only part time.


Yes, I can tune to channels directly and there is programming.

My question is strictly about OTA channels which do not have actual guide data (program guide lists 'REGULAR SCHEDULE' for the station).

I am able to set-up manual records for any station which has actual guide data (ie WSB 2-2, ME-TV) but can not for any station which does not (ie WATL 36-3, Antenna TV) and where the program guide lists 'REGULAR SCHEDULE' for the station.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

fluffybear said:


> Yes, I can tune to channels directly and there is programming.
> 
> My question is strictly about OTA channels which do not have actual guide data (program guide lists 'REGULAR SCHEDULE' for the station).
> 
> I am able to set-up manual records for any station which has actual guide data (ie WSB 2-2, ME-TV) but can not for any station which does not (ie WATL 36-3, Antenna TV) and where the program guide lists 'REGULAR SCHEDULE' for the station.


You should be able to. As I said, and others as well, I can.


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## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

Hi, Original poster here,

I checked the option of getting an HR34 to to make this easier. The unit is $399 from DTV. Not an option nor would ebay or anything else that is gonna set me back a ton of $.

If the theory of the AM21 housing the channel data on a flat file is true then could i not just do some sort of a firmware update? How is a firmware update done on the AM21?

I guess the question now is, does DTV send the channel data to the IRD or is it hosted in the AM21 - (We all know that the guide data is in the stream), i'm talking about the slot in the guide for the channel to live.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

HammerHead001 said:


> If the theory of the AM21 housing the channel data on a flat file is true then could i not just do some sort of a firmware update? How is a firmware update done on the AM21?


There are no firmware updates for the AM21.



HammerHead001 said:


> I guess the question now is, does DTV send the channel data to the IRD or is it hosted in the AM21 - (We all know that the guide data is in the stream), i'm talking about the slot in the guide for the channel to live.


If you'll search you'll find a few threads on the subject around here. One of those is the one where a Mod informed us that it's a text file that DirecTV is no longer updating. It's also not something we can update ourselves.


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## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

I just spoke with the head engineer of my local fox station here in KC. I explained the situation. He said that they have had a few calls regarding this and have spoke with DTV. They have been sending both of their channels 4.1 (Fox) and 4.2 (AntennaTV) via their uplink for over a year. I currently only get the Fox channel both on and off-air (via the am21). So, if DTV had the bandwidth, I could get this channel via the normal data stream and not have to deal with the off-air scenario.

The engineer told me that DTV told them that they basically did a snapshot 18 months ago for their database. They (DTV) has no plans to update or add any others channels that have come since that snapshot was taken. So, regardless of the bandwidth issue - those who attempt a workaround via the AM21 are still shut out by DTV's unwillingness or lack of resources to update the guide to even allow a slot for a channel that I can get but, their antiquated equipment cant accept it.

The only other option is to pony-up $399 and get a HR-34 to "scan" for the channel to come in. That's not acceptable.

I am near my renewal date for my customer agreement - I wonder if I re-up if there is a subsidy for the HR-34.

This whole situation gives me a headache!


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

HammerHead001 said:


> The only other option is to pony-up $399 and get a HR-34 to "scan" for the channel to come in. That's not acceptable.
> 
> I am near my renewal date for my customer agreement - I wonder if I re-up if there is a subsidy for the HR-34.


Call DirecTV and explain your situation to them and ask what kind of a deal you can get on an HR34. If the person you speak with doesn't give you one suitable to you end the call and call back. Eventually you'll get someone willing to work with you.


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## ajc68 (Jan 23, 2008)

HammerHead001 said:


> I am near my renewal date for my customer agreement - I wonder if I re-up if there is a subsidy for the HR-34.


Talk to DTV's retention department (when prompted say "Cancel Service" - it won't actually cancel your service, it just sends you to retention) and nicely explain that you're strongly considering leaving once your contract is up due to your frustrations over the missing channel. Be sure to give them the entire backstory (it's why you got the AM21, etc.) If your account is in good standing, they tend to work with you on what will hopefully be an acceptable solution.


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## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

Its honestly my only option left. Thanks for the advise.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

ajc68 said:


> *Talk to DTV's retention department (when prompted say "Cancel Service" - it won't actually cancel your service, it just sends you to retention)* and nicely explain that you're strongly considering leaving once your contract is up due to your frustrations over the missing channel. Be sure to give them the entire backstory (it's why you got the AM21, etc.) If your account is in good standing, they tend to work with you on what will hopefully be an acceptable solution.


Its been reported they changed the procedure to eliminate that shortcut to Retention;

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=3053176#post3053176

May have to go through a first level CSR regardless to get to the Retention Dept. nowadays.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Good luck explaining the issue to an offshore CSR


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## steelerfanmike (Jun 18, 2007)

I also have a hr34-700.... It does scan ALL channels... But the extra ones that you get the guide says (regular Schedule) the whole entire day and night. Soo no records could be set. If your watching something and hit the record button, it does NOTHING!!!
When setting a timer manual for say 1/2 an hour show, It WILL work fine. But you have to go on the internet or use you tv tuner to find out what times your programs come on, that you want to record. I use titantv


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

steelerfanmike said:


> I also have a hr34-700.... It does scan ALL channels... But the extra ones that you get the guide says (regular Schedule) the whole entire day and night. Soo no records could be set. If your watching something and hit the record button, it does NOTHING!!!
> When setting a timer manual for say 1/2 an hour show, It WILL work fine. But you have to go on the internet or use you tv tuner to find out what times your programs come on, that you want to record. I use titantv


Yes, set manual records, and having to find out what's on, while not ideal, is a heck of a lot better than all the rest of us, who don't have HR34's, so we can't scan for the missing channel.

Some day, I'd like to get one (34).


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Good luck explaining the issue to an offshore CSR


They aren't all offshore. In fact it's been a couple of years since I spoke with one offshore.


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## steelerfanmike (Jun 18, 2007)

hasan said:


> Yes, set manual records, and having to find out what's on, while not ideal, is a heck of a lot better than all the rest of us, who don't have HR34's, so we can't scan for the missing channel.
> 
> Some day, I'd like to get one (34).


I know its a pain in the _ss but its alot cheaper to just use your Digital tuner on your hdtv. Most of them tell you whats on anyway, when you hit the display button. But obviously no recording... Bottom line. The HR34 is nice to have but its nice to know whats on too..... Kinda spoiled I guess! LOL


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## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

Rumor has it that there might be some additional functionality (via firmware update on the IRD) to the HR24 that will allow me to get this one off-air channel via the AM21.

Has anyone heard of this with the HR 24? 



Thanks!


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

HammerHead001 said:


> I noticed a post on another forum referring to CE release. One guy has an HR24 with the AM21. He asked if this weekend would be the one that OTA channel updates would come thru for the HR24.
> 
> Has anyone hear of this with the HR 24?
> 
> ...


Warning;

Mention or discussion of CE related issues are not permitted outside the CE forum.


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## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

Sorry - I didn't know that rule! should I delete?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

HammerHead001 said:


> Sorry - I didn't know that rule! should I delete?


I'd advise it yes before you draw a rebuke from a moderator.

Believe me I know as its happened to me, more than once ...


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

RunnerFL said:


> It's been said the OTA database is a flat text file on the AM21. Entering zip codes only tells the unit what channels to actually display.


This one-big-database-that-all-receivers-must-download-in-full approach is at the core of the issue.

I've had this feeling for a long time now that whoever was assigned the task of OTA implementation with the then new HRxx DVR line back around 2006/2007, was simply a database programmer who had never watched or set up an OTA channel on a normal TV before and had no real-world clue as to how ATSC works. I mean, seriously. I wonder if it was a programmer who simply looked at how Directv managed satellite channels, and assumed the same paradigm would work great for the OTA channels.

It's like they had no idea of what the ATSC spec allows in terms of station identification and programming elements contained in the OTA stream, including station ID and subchannel managememt (subchannel launches, decommissions, renumbering, etc Ex: WXIA here in Atlanta has been through several iterations in this regard over the past couple of years). Your every day garden variety ATSC tuner can handle these things with ease.

To me, it would have made more sense for them to have done it as such:

Step 1: During OTA setup, first let the receiver/DVR scan for all OTA channels it can see. Grab the channel identification elements from the OTA stream (PSIP) and store to the receiver database. You have now captured any subchannels in this process.

Step 2: Display channels found from scanning and prompt user if there are additional channels he would like to try to manually tune (RF channel entry). If the receiver detects it, add the info to the databse as in step 1. Just like a TV does, including virtual channel mapping.

>>Results from steps 1 and 2 would be what would allow seeing the station in the guide and being able to actually tune it, independent of programming guide data being present or not.<<

Step 3: Now done with steps 1 and 2, sample the guide stream and extract not the whole file, but only the guide data for the OTA channels (those that were identified by the PSIP data) it has logged from the scanning and manual setup steps. Discard/ignore the rest of the OTA guide info in the satellite stream (i.e. channels for other parts of the country) before storing results to the receiver flash memory (or wherever guide and channel setup info is stored.)

Step 4: For any OTA channels or subchannels discovered in steps 1 and 2, but for which there is no DirecTV provided guide data, simply either list "regular programming" like the HR 34 does, or better yet, grab the guide data contained in the PSIP and show that in the guide in a different color so you know from whence the info was sourced.

It really would not have been hard to do it this way. Perhaps easier.


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## steelerfanmike (Jun 18, 2007)

tkrandall said:


> This one-big-database-that-all-receivers-must-download-in-full approach is at the core of the issue.
> 
> I've had this feeling for a long time now that whoever was assigned the task of OTA implementation with the then new HRxx DVR line back around 2006/2007, was simply a database programmer who had never watched or set up an OTA channel on a normal TV before and had no real-world clue as to how ATSC works. I mean, seriously. I wonder if it was a programmer who simply looked at how Directv managed satellite channels, and assumed the same paradigm would work great for the OTA channels.
> 
> ...


and how is all that going to get rid of the famous (regular Schedule) line we all keep seeing???


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> This one-big-database-that-all-receivers-must-download-in-full approach is at the core of the issue.
> 
> I've had this feeling for a long time now that whoever was assigned the task of OTA implementation with the then new HRxx DVR line back around 2006/2007, was simply a database programmer who had never watched or set up an OTA channel on a normal TV before and had no real-world clue as to how ATSC works. I mean, seriously. I wonder if it was a programmer who simply looked at how Directv managed satellite channels, and assumed the same paradigm would work great for the OTA channels.
> 
> ...


One thing to keep in mind is that there was going to be no OTA for HR21's and higher at all. They put together the AM21 really fast. Was it done right the first time? Not if it's using one flat text file, no.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

I thought the AM-21 was more or less just a tuner, and that the Hxx/HRxx receiver managed all the OTA channel and guide info.

As to the "regular programming" I'd rather have that than not be able to tune the channel. Also, as I said, if you grabbed the ATSC provide PSIP guide data, then you would have that close-in (requires you to tune the channel first)


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## HammerHead001 (Mar 14, 2010)

I like that scenario. Hind site is 20/20.

In a perfect world DTV would have the bandwidth to accept & pass thru all of the channels thru the stream and the concept of the AM21 never would have risen. After speaking with the engineering team with my local Fox station yesterday, they uplink every channel they have to DTV. He thought this was the case with most stations across the US. 

or.. How about this... Since most of us have our IRD's connected via ethernet, allow the guide data to come from tribune/zap2it directly thru that port.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I'm in the Philly DMA, and I think I'm missing at least 5 OTA channels. Got so bad I just dropped OTA on my HR20 and fed the signal directly to my TV. Two advantages - better tuner on my TV, and I get all the channels.


And of course one big disadvantage -- can't record the channel. :nono2:


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

^^^
If I can't see it at all I sure can't record it.

D* really blew it with their OTA solution and it appears that it's headed the way of TV Apps and Media Center - good ideas badly executed that they just stopped working on instead of fixing them.


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