# Thank you Dish, for my 2nd dead hard drive in about 8 months.



## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

My 522 lasted about 2 1/3 years. The 722 I got last fall just died. About 8 months. I told the support person over the phone, if it happens too soon the next time, I switch back to cable or try DirecTV. Ridiculous.

L618, and those error codes under the system info screen (or somewhere). A coincidence?

When my 522 died, I knew it was happening for about 10 days. I watched (and recorded to DVD) as much as I could before it was unusable.

With the 722? No notice at all. I lost a lot of material I was planning on watching. Really pissed.


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## fwampler (Dec 2, 2005)

Those HDs get a real workout. We're probably lucky they last as long as they do. If I'm lucky mine usually goes around a year. I'm luckier this time with my 622. It will be two years this August. Here's hoping.


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

I have a 3 year old 622 and a second 622 that's almost 2 years old. No problem with either one (knock on wood). Just wondering if you have your receiver located where heat buildup could be an issue?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

The 722 will generate a lot more heat than the 522. The fact you have had two drives go bad in a short time usually is an indication of something external or could be just bad luck... I would start looking like some external factors like Heat or possible electrical. Are you on UPS or power conditioner.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Yep.. Make sure you're on some kind of power line conditioner/surge suppressor. Also make sure there's plenty of clearance around the unit for air flow. These newer receivers run pretty hot, so you don't want them in an enclosed space.

We've seen lots of people having repeated failures, only to track it down to being in a location that provided poor (or no) ventilation and the receiver was overheating and cooking the hard drive (among other things).


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Yep - good airflow is NOT an option - it's a REQUIREMENT !

And it will probably continue to be so for the foreseable future.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Kevin Brown said:


> My 522 lasted about 2 1/3 years. The 722 I got last fall just died. About 8 months. I told the support person over the phone, if it happens too soon the next time, I switch back to cable or try DirecTV. Ridiculous. ...


That'll teach 'em! Any thoughts as to why many of us go for years and years without a hard drive failure and yours failing so soon? (Or do accept that there is a range associated with MTBF? lol)


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

To be fair to the original poster, it is probably not unreasonable to assume that a new receiver installed in the same location as an old receiver would work as long as it fits with the same clearances.

It would probably do Dish a world of good to call some extra attention to the need for good airflow around their newer receivers that need it. By default my situation is fine, but i might very well have been in the same boat if I were using a traditional enclosed cabinet that just had holes in the back for cables.

For the advanced user, it might be intuitive to consider the additional heat on these... but I'll tell you, many years ago this guy's experience was 100% my experience with a personal computer.

I started having hard drive issues... no idea why... was using SCSI-differential drives. Ultimately what I found the problem to be was the hard drive itself was generating enough heat that it was causing the SCSI cable to separate and unravel... and then it was exposed to interference, and data errors. I had to keep replacing cables semi-regularly until I upgraded that computer and got those drives out of my system.

And that was a computer that otherwise had adequate cooling for the CPU... just no place to put anything to cool the hard drive that was running way hotter than anything else I'd ever had.

Had someone warned me in advance, I'd either have not bought that kind of drive OR prepared a different case to build my system.


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## jtthirty (Jan 13, 2006)

My 722 just did the error 311 which stated that the unit detected a problem with the receiver's ability to record. Error message said to unplug for 1 minute and if the same error code appeared to call tech, it did and I did. Research told me that the hard drive had failed. Call in to local tech and he sent a technician and I asked about sending the guy out with a new unit and he said he'd see if they would release one. Technician arrived and went through the procedure and said that, yep, it was probably the hard drive. He said he asked before he left if he should bring a new 722 along with him and was told, "No it was installed in October, so it shouldn't be a problem". Tech called in to Dish and they had him jump through the hoops again and said, yep, we'll Fedex another--I pay $14.95 for shipping. He didn't like it and neither did I. My 7 month old 722 sat on top of my cabinet--no airflow was impeded what-so-ever. Anyway--


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

Having one drive die doesn't surprise me much, but two indicates either pretty unlucky situations, or a heat issue (as mentioned).

Keep in mind, if your box is on, the hard drive is being written to 24/7. the buffer is constantly recording, so even if you're not recording shows, it's still running full speed all the time.

I could be wrong, but I highly doubt they have an hour worth of memory to store buffers without writing to the drive.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

These are heavily worked hard drives in equipment many will use in a/v setups with other heat generating equipment. Many have discovered that what is needed is the addition of fans under or on the side of their 722, fans not needed by a single other piece of equipment including the most massive heat generators of all - a/v receivers.

There are hard drives designed to work in a wide range of temperatures, but not in my 722. There are case fans capable of moving extremely large volumes of air, but not in my 722. It is both a puzzle, a worry, and an irritation. I'm waiting for someone to get a 922 and see what Echostar has done to fix the potential heat problem in it.


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

yeah I do agree it's surprising they don't put better cooling in it. Hell my cats sleep on mine, but they get too hot and have to jump off after a half hour. seriously.


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## RickDee (May 23, 2006)

The biggest problem with 622s & 722s is exactly as been stated before - ADEQUATE VENTILATION. When I set up my first 622 I had it in a cabinet that had been the home of my 508 and I used to hear the fan run quite frequently. So, I went out and bought one of the TV stands with 2 open shelves below the TV and I have not heard the fan run on my 622 in almost 3 years now.

Inadequate ventilation for the DVR is akin to letting the coolant get very low, or run out, in a cars radiator. The engine will get very hot and probably overheat which can warp an engine's cylinder head.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

phrelin said:


> ... fans not needed by a single other piece of equipment including the most massive heat generators of all - a/v receivers.
> ...


How much power do you think your A/V receiver draws while you're watching that movie? :nono:


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

SaltiDawg said:


> How much power do you think your A/V receiver draws while you're watching that movie? :nono:


Hey, I've got a five year old Pany plasma (which pulls 395 watts when on and 2.3 watts in standby), a 722 and a 612, plus my Toshiba receiver (which pulls 500 watts when on and <0.1 watts in standby) and a powered Bose subwoofer speaker system. And they're all behind two UPS units. And....

My wife and I each have a computer with all the printers etc., running most of the time during the day, each behind a UPS.

And then, just in case our footprint wasn't big enough, we have a spa hot tub.

On the other hand, we have many, many, many times gone over a month without having to gas up our Chevy Avalanche.

And in the past three years we've replaced all the single pane glass in our 1972 home with energy efficient windows and spent extra to replace our roof with an energy saving system and replaced our furnace with an extremely energy efficient system.

And instead of using a leaf blower like my idiot neighbor is using right now, we use rakes and compost piles which not only reduces our footprint but helps keep us smaller.

You do the best you can with what you have.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

phrelin said:


> Hey, I've got a five year old Pany plasma (which pulls 395 watts when on and 2.3 watts in standby), a 722 and a 612, plus my Toshiba receiver (which pulls 500 watts when on and <0.1 watts in standby) and a powered Bose subwoofer speaker system. And they're all behind two UPS units. And...
> ...


I have no problem with your figures *except* I can absolutely assure you that your receiver is not drawing anywhere near *500* Watts.

Your "Hotel" load for your A/V receiver is likely less than 50 Watts. (That would be the power used with the volume all the way down, or muted. The power used to generate the audio is something less that 15 Watts. _ (Don't confuse per Channel *Rating* at some specified distortion level with *actual* power used.)_

In a viewing space that is say 15' X 10' *5* Watts of acoustic power would be reasonable.

Two data points for you.

(1) My A/V Receiver is a Yamaha HTR-5660 that is rated at *105* Watts per Channel @1 Khz. 0.7% Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) at 4 Ohms. *By actual measurement the Hotel load is 41 Watts (Volume all the way down.) and 48 Watts with the volume cranked up to where the neighbors in the next home can hear.*

(2) A typical TV set might have an audio system rated at 10 or 15 Watts. Turn the volume all the way up on that TV and you will find it is too loud (and also too distorted  )to be listened to.

I have a 60" (Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD) Plasma and like your Panny set it draws 400-500 Watts of power for the Video Display. (Depending on the amount of white in the video.) You can feel the elevated room temperature in both winter and summer if the panel is on for much time at all. You will not notice a significant heat rise near your AV Receiver - about the same as your 722. (My cat likes to sleep atop one of our 622s. He'd enjoy the warmth from the AV receiver, I suspect, but for fact that it is behind glass. :lol: )


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I have a RX-V2700 and have no idea what it really uses. I just said what the manual shows which I assume is the max:


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

phrelin said:


> I have a RX-V2700 and have no idea what it really uses. ...


I just gave you an idea what it really uses.


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

Ventilation is not the problem. My unit is out in the open. Same location, the 522 lasted 2 years and 4 months (which I consider quite acceptable), the 722 last almost exactly 8 months. Poor product design or a crap hard drive is the problem. I do have it on a filtered power supply.



jtthirty said:


> My 722 just did the error 311 ... October ... My 7 month old 722 sat on top of my cabinet--no airflow was impeded what-so-ever. Anyway--


I got mine in Aug. Maybe a bad batch of drives?

I will see what I can do to improve any airflow issues. Can't hurt I suppose.

Just curious though, the CSR guy I talked to immediately said they'd ship a new one out. (Same-o 311 fault.) This was Fri night. But I wanted them to drop one off Sat. He basically said that it doesn't work that way. But does it? Should I have pressed? He also said that he could overnight it, but I wouldn't get it on Sat anyway, so he'd just send it regular FedEx (or UPS, whatever) and he said I *should* get it Mon. But then he read their std info, and it could take 3 to 5 business days, and I said, what? And he said, really, they aren't having to ship a lot of these out right now (which surprised me actually), and that I really should receive it Mon.

And later on I was thinking, shoot, if they don't want to drop one off, can I go pick one up somewhere?

What do you all think?

I don't have to tell you, not have a DVR sucks. I'm realizing now I haven't watched live TV in a very long time, and it's very excruciating to. Can't even pause it for a potty break!

I *know* that hard drives don't last forever, but me personally:

a) I'd pay more for some kind of intrinsic backup like RAID or something.
b) I'd also pay some kind of fee to see if they could recover what's on my old drive.

Like I mentioned in another thread, having a DVR isn't very useful technology if I keep losing saved TV shows all the time.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Kevin Brown said:


> ...
> Like I mentioned in another thread, having a DVR isn't very useful technology if I keep losing saved TV shows all the time.


Sheesh. You had *one* Hard drive fail after eight months. You've generalized that event to conclude the HDs are crappy. You now are losing shows*"all the time."* :lol:

Read up on Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) as a possibility, given that your installation is not the cause of the drive failure.

It is in fact the norm for Dish to ship your replacement receiver out.

Any of us would be disappointed to lose all our recordings after only eight months. Your leap to the conclusions that it is due to poor quality HDs and that you are losing "shows all the time" that is the not supported.


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## biz56 (Apr 15, 2009)

I don't currently have one, but given the heat issues with the Dish DVRs, is it preferable to put the units out in the open a distance away from the TV instead of inside a cabinet next to the TV? If I do that at my house, the receiver would be in a separate room and I would be unable to see it while in use. As long as I can run the hdmi cable and the UHF remote works properly, is there any downside to moving the receiver to an out-of-sight location? Any indicator lights on the unit that need to be in plain view?


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

SaltiDawg said:


> Sheesh. You had *one* Hard drive fail after eight months. You've generalized that event to conclude the HDs are crappy. You now are losing shows*"all the time."* :lol:
> 
> Read up on Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF) as a possibility, given that your installation is not the cause of the drive failure.
> 
> ...


I've had *two* hard drives fail within 8 months of each other, yes from 2 different DVRs. And jtthirty 722's drive failed at less than 8 months. So excuse me for generalizing. :lol: But let's see, I've had PCs for 20 years now, and I've never had a hard drive fail on my home machine, and at work, just one failure over that same time period.

Sure, DVR hard drives get more usage than either of those, but that should be part of Dish product design criteria, don't you think? To choose a manufacturer and drive that can at least last a minimum amount of time? And that minimum amount of time should be greater than 8 months, don't you think? Don't you think that's a reasonable expectation?

And for it being the "norm" that Dish sends a receiver that I have to then wait for, is it the norm for a DVR to fail in 8 months? Oh boy, when I complained today, I got a whopping $10 discount, the DVR fee free for 2 months. But I would have preferred a DVR box back in my hands the next day. I know I could have had this done with Comcast. Why not with Dish?

It's like you're making excuses for them. Dish has to compete with Comcast and DirecTV. I don't want to go back to Comcast and I don't want to go to DirecTV either. I just wish that Dish would improve their hardware and their customer support.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

As a counter point Kevin, I have had my 722 DVR for a least 2 years and have had it in an enclosed cabinet with fans (Knocking on wood). The heat does on occasion build up in this cabinet and I have a temperature gauge on the inside so when I see it build up I open the doors to let out the heat. 

What is jtthirty? Are you saying you have had three drives fail or two? 

It is possible that you got two bad units though whenever I see the same type of failure in the same location makes me always questions external factors. Remember the 722 works a lot harder then the 522, generates a lot more heat, and is a more complicated piece of equipment. This of course does not make it ok for the box to fail, but it also negates the point that my 522 worked fine in that location therefore my 722 should in my opinion. It is reasonable to believe that a 722 should work where a 522 does, but it is also reasonable for a 722 to have issues where a 522 did not in my opinion. 

One thing you should check is the average, min, max temperatures of your 722. If you still have it check it before the swap. Report those back. I understand your 722 is in open air which as you indicate should provide enough cooling to not overheat the box. Is the 722 sitting above an AV receiver? 

Guess my point here Kevin is the the 722 is installed in a ton of homes and based on the posts here, I personally don't see any trend of short drive life. The fact you have had two with periods of less than a year makes me think either you have been unlucky twice with drives, your use case of using a 722 is unique, or something external is contributing.

Just out of curiosity.. How many timers and timer events do you have configured? Does your box not go into standby during the day? Any details on your viewing habits? Is the box heavily used or does it see light service. I would consider light service being 4 hours a day and heavy being between 16 and 24. 

At this point, just trying to capture some data to see if there is a relationship.


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

By standby do you mean when the box shows the screensaver/messages?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Yes.. that is what I mean by Standby.. Some call it off but the receiver never actually is off.


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

ok. The reason I ask is that really doesn't give much info. Because your timers still record whether it's on standby or not. So the drive is still working.

I work my 722 to death. I work from a home office, 6 months in Arizona 6 months in Arkansucks. I have a 722 here and there, and a 625 there, 2 211's here. The 722 here gets abused. I am either watching or recording about 18 hours a day. if I'm up, it's on and I honestly don't sleep much. Plus, I have over 75 timers running, so it's almost always recording something. in two years I've not had a single blip from a hard drive on any unit.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Better knock on wood FastNOC...  Yeah.. Yes I understand that the drive is always working but I was trying to get a feel for how much interacting one is doing with the DVR that could be introducing some additional wear as one has to move around the drive. Basically fishing here to see if something stands out as I know a lot of people have had zero issues on the Hard drive and run them similar to how you are running yours.

How many timer events do you have on an average. 75 timers is on the upper limits and some people have experience issues when the start to approach 96 at times so curious what your ratio is.


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

Well, it fluxuates of course, but an example, I counted tomorrow's events and there are 27 set to record.

I've gotten to the limit before. but it wasn't a round number if I remember right. It was some off spot, like 82 or 88 or something. but i had to delete old ones lol


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

If memory serves me, 96 Timers and 576 timer events. Would be curious to hear your timer events. Hold off.. I am going to create a call out to see what numbers people are running at.... Those threads are always a good pulse and we are wondering off topic a bit here.


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

Not sure I follow. What do you mean by 'hear your timer events'? I thought you meant how many shows I was to record each day? no?


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> What is jtthirty?


Poster #9.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

FastNOC said:


> Not sure I follow. What do you mean by 'hear your timer events'? I thought you meant how many shows I was to record each day? no?


Check this thread out.. Just created it to report these numbers... I always find it interesting to see how many timers/timer events people have.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2071438#post2071438


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

TulsaOK said:


> Poster #9.


Thanks TulsaOK.... I missed that post.


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

Ron Barry said:


> As a counter point Kevin, I have had my 722 DVR for a least 2 years and have had it in an enclosed cabinet with fans (Knocking on wood). The heat does on occasion build up in this cabinet and I have a temperature gauge on the inside so when I see it build up I open the doors to let out the heat.
> 
> What is jtthirty? Are you saying you have had three drives fail or two?
> 
> ...


Ron- I appreciate the troubleshooting, but I've been over all this in my own head to see if there's something *I'm* doing wrong, but I assure you, I'm a veteran of stereo equip/home theater/PC stuff in general, and I already have a lot of precautions in place. It's open to the environment, not overly used compared to how I see some people use their's here , on filtered power, etc.

One thing I hope to take away from all this, is hey, if my 1st 522 "only" lasted a little over 2 years, and this one only lasted 8 months, maybe I am due one that will last a long time for my next box.  I was just talking to my buddy who is the person to actually get me to sign up with Dish way back when, and he still has his 1st DVR and it's 5 years old now. And in a cabinet, no less.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well just looking for the possible trigger, but like mentioned earlier it could just be bad luck. I know of some people that have gone through 4 or 5 DVRs in a short period of time and others that have not had one swap and have been a customer for years.. What I find odd about yours if that both your failures were months in service. Usually failures happen quicker and Hard drives usually last even under heavy use a lot longer than 8 months as I am sure you are aware of. 

Well keep the thread up to date with your third box. Hopefully 3 is a charm in your case.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

And Kevin, please post temp counter's reading - Menu-System-Diags-Counters-PgDown 7 times.


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

OK, I will. Didn't know where to find it. I got the new box today, but I'll grab that off the old one before I disconnect it. But ... will those temps even be valid? I haven't had access to the hard drive in several days, so I don't know if the drive is even powered up for it to be contributing any heat to the overall box.


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

OK, I see that it's sort of a data recorder. On my old box:

High 134
Low 93
Ave 120

I got the new box yesterday, packed incorrectly by Dish, thank you very much once again, and it's a refurb, and these are the numbers right after I fired it up:

H 118
L 89
A 104

Not so much different than my old ones. How do these compare? Is there an old thread out there where these were talked about? (OK, I'm going to search now ...  )

I'll track these as well to see if they change much over the next little while.


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

OK, found these:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129524&highlight=counter
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129524&highlight=counter

For the 622: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=53431

Ok, mine are not out of the ordinary. One person noted something that I'll add: I live in the Bay Area, so no A/C. So my family room can get into the 80's on a hot day outside. But the 722 that just failed? Roughly mid Aug 2008 to a week ago, so that's over the winter, so I'm not really thinking it's a temperature problem. I did add 1.5 inch spacers to the bottom to raise it off the shelf I have it on. Easy to do.

Like I mentioned, it's a refurb that was packed wrong in the box, so maybe this is the one that'll last a while.  (The one that failed was brand new when I got it.)


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I've had mine about a year, I think..

High: 124
Low: 78
Avg: 114

Could be you just got a bad one... OR if they recycle these and refurb them... and the person who had it before you was running hotter BUT didn't have a failure before he turned it in... maybe you got one that was pre-baked? That has to at least be possible.


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## satgeek550 (May 30, 2008)

I am on my third VIP 722 in a little over a year, I am on the longest one yet 7 months.


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## Kagato (Jul 1, 2002)

I've had DishDVR since the first Linux based devices came out. I've had at least a dozen. Eight of those units had the hard drives fail. I've really tried to baby the Dish DVRs. They are hooked up with quality UPS systems with nice voltage regulation protection (both under and over protected). Good cooling, plenty of ventilation. It just doesn't matter.

In theory my latest one will get replaced today. VIP 622, RIP.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

When I first moved into my house years ago, there were lots of power issues for a while... while new construction was still ongoing in the neighborhood. More than disconnects, there would be surges and brownouts until they finished monkeying around in the neighborhood.

I never lost any equipment... but that kind of stuff can play havok if you have a borderline unit that can't take much variance.


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

> I am on my third VIP 722 in a little over a year, I am on the longest one yet 7 months.





> I've had DishDVR since the first Linux based devices came out. I've had at least a dozen. Eight of those units had the hard drives fail.


So my experience isn't out of the ordinary then. (I got a tip about another web site with HDD temps, (Thanks !!) and their numbers aren't much different than here, just lots more of 'em.)

OK, USB powered fans, lap coolers, etc ... Hmmm....


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## audiomaster (Jun 24, 2004)

I bought one of those laptop coolers for under my 622, even though it is on a shelf with open front and back. But after 3 months, the cooler is making more noise now as it runs 24-7. Anyone know of one that will last a while quietly?


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## koji68 (Jun 21, 2004)

Try quietpc.com. I cannot say anything good or bad about the notebook coolers they sell because I don't use them.

I use the fans they sell for my HTPC and they work great.

http://www.quietpcusa.com/Quiet-Notebook-Coolers-C30.aspx


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