# Recent Cnet Ratings on HR20/21 are Puzzling



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I remember the old posts about the Cnet review and the divisions it created on this forum. Many of us including me believed that the HR20 from 9 months ago deserved it's very low user rating and some people thought that it did not. After months of not looking at the Cnet review I went back and looked at it again, to my surprise the Reviews have gotten worst:eek2: While I believe Directv should be punished for releasing an unfinished Alpha model to the public and that all the orginal low ratings should reflect that, I did not expect the most recent ratings to be so dismal, there worst than the old one's 

Now I know some of us disagree about the HR20/21 reliability and performance but come on lets be fair, the HR20/21 have gotten a lot better and as of now it works pretty well for the most part. So whats up with all the recent negative reviews? Anybody have any idea why this receiver is still being panned?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Personally I think that people vent at cnet when they don't know where else to vent. We tend to be positive, upbeat, and focussed on problem solving. When people are frustrated to the point of just wanting to toss the daing thing, they go to places where they can come in, make a snarky comment and leave. 

The cnet reviews have been a source of frustration for many of us here for several years now. Personally I have found that from day 1 with the HR20 it has gotten consistently better and more stable. At this point reviews from 2006 aren't particularly relevant, but unfortunately cnet doesn't see it that way.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Cnet reviews are pretty much crappy for everything.

Remember, those upset find places to rant, those not upset usually do not go out of their way to tell others how happy they are.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I have to disagree a bit with both of you, I personaly find CNet reviews to be very good. I have purchased a few items based soley on there user reviews and I have yet to be disapointed. None the less in the case of HR20 the user reviews just don't make a whole lot of sense.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

My problem I guess more is the bias of the editor reviews. They constantly give good reviews to those companies that advertise with them and tend to take away from those that dont even if the product is better.

Canon and Sony were an example of this for awhile. Sony got great reviews always (and advertised with CNet) while Canon got lower marks on products that everywhere else were rated higher than the Sony equivalents CNet marked higher.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

Grentz said:


> They constantly give good reviews to those companies that advertise with them and tend to take away from those that don't even if the product is better.


What a coincidence... CNet is in the business of selling magazines not electronics.

The job of any magazine, regardless of industry, is to sell advertising space so the advertiser's get exposure and create enough chatter to sell the next month's issue.

Magazines that don't accept advertising seem equally inept at comprehending anything they review and it shows in their work if you read carefully.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

You can have separation of advertising and your opinions though. Just because you advertise for a company does not mean you have to make all your reviews blatantly bias towards them.

There are plenty of other sites and publications out there that do not have huge bias towards advertisers.

Advertising is the way of the world for publications, but that does not mean your views and statements have to be based upon the advertisers views.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> I remember the old posts about the Cnet review and the divisions it created on this forum. Many of us including me believed that the HR20 from 9 months ago deserved it's very low user rating and some people thought that it did not. After months of not looking at the Cnet review I went back and looked at it again, to my surprise the Reviews have gotten worst:eek2: While I believe Directv should be punished for releasing an unfinished Alpha model to the public and that all the orginal low ratings should reflect that, I did not expect the most recent ratings to be so dismal, there worst than the old one's
> 
> Now I know some of us disagree about the HR20/21 reliability and performance but come on lets be fair, the HR20/21 have gotten a lot better and as of now it works pretty well for the most part. So whats up with all the recent negative reviews? Anybody have any idea why this receiver is still being panned?


Because it's not a DirecTivo, DirecTV has received alot of bad DVR reviews that continue to this day.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> I remember the old posts about the Cnet review and the divisions it created on this forum. Many of us including me believed that the HR20 from 9 months ago deserved it's very low user rating and some people thought that it did not. After months of not looking at the Cnet review I went back and looked at it again, to my surprise the Reviews have gotten worst:eek2: While I believe Directv should be punished for releasing an unfinished Alpha model to the public and that all the orginal low ratings should reflect that, I did not expect the most recent ratings to be so dismal, there worst than the old one's
> 
> Now I know some of us disagree about the HR20/21 reliability and performance but come on lets be fair, the HR20/21 have gotten a lot better and as of now it works pretty well for the most part. So whats up with all the recent negative reviews? Anybody have any idea why this receiver is still being panned?


I decided to post another prime example.My Uncle lives 30 minutes away from me so I hardly can get over to see him.Well he's kinda funny cause when he get's pissed off,he get's pissed off.So he first had DirecTV with the DirecTivo he had a case that pissed him off so he went with Dish.Then Dish pissed him off so now he is back with DirecTV.I went over there the other day,he has the HR21-700.

I could tell after he told me what package he had(Choice) that his "Channels I Get" was totally messed up(not correct).Did I tell him?.Hell no! I ain't pissing him off!.:eek2:

So this is a prime example why there are still negative reviews to this day this product still has problems that are not fixed.:nono2:


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

You do realize that when the HR20 was a POS at the very start, CNet still gave it a high rating:nono2: I have heard some people say that there has never been a more disparate rating between CNet Editors and the online users like there was for the HR20. Even so I think the more relevant issue is why do people still have so many complaints?



Grentz said:


> My problem I guess more is the bias of the editor reviews. They constantly give good reviews to those companies that advertise with them and tend to take away from those that dont even if the product is better.
> 
> Canon and Sony were an example of this for awhile. Sony got great reviews always (and advertised with CNet) while Canon got lower marks on products that everywhere else were rated higher than the Sony equivalents CNet marked higher.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'd prefer this not turn into another general rant thread, but instead stay targeted on cnet. Thanks.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Any review site has it's pluses and minuses.. I do use several.. But I always check dates and whether someones complaint would bother me..
i.e. I bought a digital camera years ago, the reviews said it took good pictures but there were a bunch of complaints that it was slow to download pics.. well I never use the camera to download pics, I always pull the card, so that didn't matter to me.. Was a great camera for years for us.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

subeluvr said:


> What a coincidence... CNet is in the business of selling magazines not electronics.
> 
> The job of any magazine, regardless of industry, is to sell advertising space so the advertiser's get exposure and create enough chatter to sell the next month's issue.
> 
> Magazines that don't accept advertising seem equally inept at comprehending anything they review and it shows in their work if you read carefully.


That's all well and good except CNet is owned by CBS which makes a fair amount of money from advertising by DirecTV.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

There has been a constant theme in this forum that CNet is biased it's all a Tivo fan conspiracy. Guess what after over two years that's probably not the case. There are bad user reviews all over the place for the HR2x line. It hasn't fared well at CNet, Circuit City, BestBuy, Crutchfied dropped them after a number of problems, epinions, Amazon, etc. At some point the shear volume and breadth of these comments has to indicate an issue especially when this line is fairing worse than those of its competitors.

So, even though it may be better than it was that doesn't make it "good" and doesn't mean the people that are getting them for the first time aren't experiencing problems. Think about the last six months with the HR...pulled back national releases, system-wide lockups, downloads during primetime TV. People here brush these things off because 1. they've grown used to that type of thing with this device and 2. they're generally more experienced with DVRs in general.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Ken S said:


> There has been a constant theme in this forum that CNet is biased it's all a Tivo fan conspiracy. Guess what after over two years that's probably not the case. There are bad user reviews all over the place for the HR2x line. It hasn't fared well at CNet, Circuit City, BestBuy, Crutchfied dropped them after a number of problems, epinions, Amazon, etc.
> 
> So, even though it may be better than it was that doesn't make it "good" and doesn't mean the people that are getting them for the first time aren't experiencing problems. Think about the last six months with the HR...pulled back national releases, system-wide lockups, downloads during primetime TV. People here brush these things off because 1. they've grown used to that type of thing with this device and 2. they're generally more experienced with DVRs in general.


And lots of people have issues with tivos... but no one ever complains about them or takes their issues nearly as seriously as they do with directv's... I for one, have no issues with the units, ( I have no kids, and don't use parental controls, if I did, I'd be pissed...) neither do my folks... and neither do lot of other people out there... Just the same as most people don't have issues with tivos... but that doesn't mean there aren't people with issues from both sides, and I think many people are harder on directv, especially cnet, because they feel these problems wouldn't exsist if the units where tivos, which is absolutly false... And people won't see that till the new Directv tivo is a year late and filled with more bugs than the current Directv DVR at the time..

Frankly, I am very experienced with DVR's, and while this unit is not to the level of a replaytv unit, it out paces tivo in most ways right now... I'm not loyal though, and tivo people generally are,so if its not done like tivo, its not good... ANd that doesn't work for me... I never cared for tivo, because I though their gui was always cumbersome and that it treats you like its your first time using it every time you use it...

The system wide lockups where directv, not the hrx's... whatever it was they where doing, they should have know not to do it, so I blame DIrectv for thoes, not the units... I completely see your point though,if I was unfamiliar with dvrs and that was my first two weeks, I'd been pissed too... but then, I get mad when my grandma's cable goes out at least once every year (far more often than DIrectv) and I see she pays almost as much as I do for basic analogue service, rather than all the HD and DVR's I have... so dollar for dollar, the HRxs are part of a system that provides me with a lot more than others, yet they still bash them on cnet, and never really take a hard look at the competitors the same way...


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

Ken S said:


> That's all well and good except CNet is owned by CBS which makes a fair amount of money from advertising by DirecTV.


And they are the first large corporation to enjoy revenue streams from as many different directions as possible?


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

But Ken the fact is that the HR20/21 is now a very good receiver, so when I see all these new reviews I really have to wonder is it some sort of conspiracy of Tivo users or Dishnet users or is it just a case that people who transistion from Tivo to Directv find the Interface so different that they are unwilling to adapt and out of frustration they write bad reviews.

BTW I have never owned a Tivo but I assume that Directv had to make the HR20 GUI very different from the Tivo or they would have patent issue's. It seems that the differences could be the source of frustration and not the actual performance.



Ken S said:


> There has been a constant theme in this forum that CNet is biased it's all a Tivo fan conspiracy. Guess what after over two years that's probably not the case. There are bad user reviews all over the place for the HR2x line. It hasn't fared well at CNet, Circuit City, BestBuy, Crutchfied dropped them after a number of problems, epinions, Amazon, etc. At some point the shear volume and breadth of these comments has to indicate an issue especially when this line is fairing worse than those of its competitors.
> 
> So, even though it may be better than it was that doesn't make it "good" and doesn't mean the people that are getting them for the first time aren't experiencing problems. Think about the last six months with the HR...pulled back national releases, system-wide lockups, downloads during primetime TV. People here brush these things off because 1. they've grown used to that type of thing with this device and 2. they're generally more experienced with DVRs in general.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> But Ken the fact is that the HR20/21 is now a very good receiver, so when I see all these new reviews I really have to wonder is it some sort of conspiracy of Tivo users or Dishnet users or is it just a case that people who transistion from Tivo to Directv find the Interface so different that they are unwilling to adapt and out of frustration they write bad reviews.
> 
> BTW I have never owned a Tivo but I assume that Directv had to make the HR20 GUI very different from the Tivo or they would have patent issue's. It seems that the differences could be the source of frustration and not the actual performance.


dread,

In your opinion it's a very good receiver in the opinions of many others it's not. Now, yes...I'd agree that some people might be having problems because of the switch from DirecTivo to an HR2x, and a lot of problems might involve the upgrade installs that went along with the thing.

You could say it's the change in the interface that is getting people to write bad reviews, but if the interface was noticeably better that could also lead to positive feelings. There weren't a whole lot of people complaining about the Windows 95 or Mac OS10 UIs when they came out (there were some for sure though).

I guess you can believe conspiracy...I just don't...it's gone on for too long, in too many places and I've seen too many bugs and missteps continue that could immediately color a new customer's opinion...especially if this is their first DVR.

Also remember, not many folks come here and learn the workarounds for the problems or learn of the advanced features. DirecTV does a horrid job of admitting to their problems and are almost as bad at letting folks know about new and improved features. Part of that is their documentation another part is a mediocre, poorly planned UI.

Also, it's important to note that in the last two presentations given by DirecTV's CEO he has mentioned receiver reliability as something they are going to improve. That's a fairly unusual type of comment for a CEO to make...it indicates that these issues have bubbled up to the top and are being considered a financial drag of some sort.

As DirecTV's competition catches up with the important HD channels the difference between the various providers will boil down to price, exclusive programming and equipment.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> And lots of people have issues with tivos... but no one ever complains about them or takes their issues nearly as seriously as they do with directv's... I for one, have no issues with the units, ( I have no kids, and don't use parental controls, if I did, I'd be pissed...) neither do my folks... and neither do lot of other people out there... Just the same as most people don't have issues with tivos... but that doesn't mean there aren't people with issues from both sides, and I think many people are harder on directv, especially cnet, because they feel these problems wouldn't exsist if the units where tivos, which is absolutly false... And people won't see that till the new Directv tivo is a year late and filled with more bugs than the current Directv DVR at the time..
> 
> Frankly, I am very experienced with DVR's, and while this unit is not to the level of a replaytv unit, it out paces tivo in most ways right now... I'm not loyal though, and tivo people generally are,so if its not done like tivo, its not good... ANd that doesn't work for me... I never cared for tivo, because I though their gui was always cumbersome and that it treats you like its your first time using it every time you use it...
> 
> The system wide lockups where directv, not the hrx's... whatever it was they where doing, they should have know not to do it, so I blame DIrectv for thoes, not the units... I completely see your point though,if I was unfamiliar with dvrs and that was my first two weeks, I'd been pissed too... but then, I get mad when my grandma's cable goes out at least once every year (far more often than DIrectv) and I see she pays almost as much as I do for basic analogue service, rather than all the HD and DVR's I have... so dollar for dollar, the HRxs are part of a system that provides me with a lot more than others, yet they still bash them on cnet, and never really take a hard look at the competitors the same way...


Ink,

There are plenty of less than glowing reviews of Tivos and other DVRs none of them are all that great...the HR2x just seems to get lower marks. Also, as I said, it's not just CNet, it's pretty much every site with reviews.

By the way, I'm no Tivo groupie. I had one thought it was a neat machine but I don't have their logo on my pillow or my old remote framed...in fact I found it quite easy to put it in the garage sale pile and take $100 for it a couple of years back. The only tear I shed was when my wife took that $100 and used it to buy season tickets to the ballet!

I also have recommended the HR2x on occasion (including one recent thread here) so I don't believe it's a steaming PoS either. Best thing I can suggest when reading those reviews is to ignore the scores and READ the whole review. If there is no text ignore it completely. There's some valid information in those sites, but it does require digging.

I never quite understand people that become hard-core fans of a product they buy (Apple, Starbucks, Sony, Tivo, DirecTV, BMW, etc.). I understand someone feeling the need to justify/defend their purchases, but sheesh at the end of the day it's still just a consumer device. It gets even more unbelievable to me that there would be an organized campaign by purchasers to not only prop up their favorite company but go out of their way to lie about other products.


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## fornold (Sep 4, 2006)

> I never quite understand people that become hard-core fans of a product they buy (Apple, Starbucks, Sony, Tivo, DirecTV, BMW, etc.). I understand someone feeling the need to justify/defend their purchases, but sheesh at the end of the day it's still just a consumer device. It gets even more unbelievable to me that there would be an organized campaign by purchasers to not only prop up their favorite company but go out of their way to lie about other products.


This is so true. I also have never understood why people get so fanatical about these sorts of things. If it is works for you great. It doesn't mean another solution doesn't work for someone else or is preferred. Choice is a good thing.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Grentz said:


> Cnet reviews are pretty much crappy for everything...


You have to understand that their motivation is not altruistic and you can't expect an honest review. Simply put, they are for sale. Just like a star on the walk of fame is "awarded" only after your publicist pays 30 G's. Or like the Bush administration being in bed with the Saudis and having nothing to do with 600 *billion *in profits for the oil companies in the last 4 quarters alone.

They (CNET) actually claim that the DISH VIP-622 DVR is the "best ever". Horse puckey! I put one in for my mother last month, and it is a total POS.

So yeah. "Crappy" kind of about sums it up. :grin:


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> ...Frankly, I am very experienced with DVR's, and while this unit is not to the level of a replaytv unit, it out paces tivo in most ways right now...


Are ya gettin' a lot of good HD content on your Replay these days? :lol: :nono2: :nono:


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

I've found reviews on sites that do not actually sell the product directly to be less informative then sites that do. I usually skip cnet reviews and read reviews on places like newegg.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Jhon69 said:


> Because it's not a DirecTivo


While I don't deny that the HR20 was bad for many at first and people still have problems (who doesn't with any consumer electronic device, I can find a hate site/blog for anything) you have hit the nail on the head here. There are a good number of those that drank the Tivo coolaid that to this day organize to smear the DirecTV DVR everywhere on the net with bad reviews. Just like the anti-DRM crowd and the bad reviews of Spore and whatnot at Amazon. The bad review has nothing to do with Spore as a game, it's simply smearing the game for the bad DRM. Same here, many of these bad "reviews" are simply "it's not Tivo and DirecTV kicked my dog so they get a 1 out of 5 for being mean" type posts. It's rather funny actually.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> There are a good number of those that drank the Tivo coolaid that to this day organize to smear the DirecTV DVR everywhere on the net with bad reviews.


The truth is out there, but I doubt it is a vast conspiracy too well hidden to be uncovered by TIVO users going about their daily life.

Maybe many HR2x users who are not part of the CE program (and therefore not emotionally invested in the HR2x) are simply unimpressed with what they see?


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Nicholsen said:


> The truth is out there, but I doubt it is a vast conspiracy too well hidden to be uncovered by TIVO users going about their daily life.
> 
> Maybe many HR2x users who are not part of the CE program (and therefore not emotionally invested in the HR2x) are simply unimpressed with what they see?


Grass is always greener.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

TomCat said:


> Are ya gettin' a lot of good HD content on your Replay these days? :lol: :nono2: :nono:


Your going to make me cry... 

I never use it anymore, even though it was by far the most intelligently one built that I have used... I can only hope its gui slowly seeps into Directv...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> The truth is out there, but I doubt it is a vast conspiracy too well hidden to be uncovered by TIVO users going about their daily life.
> 
> Maybe many HR2x users who are not part of the CE program (and therefore not emotionally invested in the HR2x) are simply unimpressed with what they see?


The people that have the most problems are generally the ones in the ce program... The only think that is stupendous about that is that Directv is actually taking its customers imput and adding things we suggest at an incredible rate, in comparison to any other company and how they listen to others... Thats more company based, not unit based...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> The only think that is stupendous about that is that Directv is actually taking its customers imput and adding things we suggest at an incredible rate, in comparison to any other company and how they listen to others...


Ignoring the contributions of the CE program (because we can't discuss it here), can you give some examples the volumes of wish list items were picked off "at an incredible rate"?


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> Grass is always greener.


I am not evaluating equipment I have not used. Sometimes the grass really is greener.

I have had service with D for almost 10 years, used to own an Sony Ultimate TV, and currently have both a TIVO HR10-250 and an HR21 running in the same equipment rack. I am looking forward to retiring the HR21 sometime next year.

Both the Ultimate TV and the HR10-250 were very good, and both had two live buffers.

I am looking forward to retiring the HR21 next year before the NFL season starts.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> The only think that is stupendous about that is that Directv is actually taking its customers imput and adding things we suggest at an incredible rate, in comparison to any other company and how they listen to others... Thats more company based, not unit based...


How is D* doing on providing DLB or something better than DLB? I don't think I would ever give a DVR a grade better than a "C+" if it didn't provide dual live buffers.

My "wish list" is short. I would like D* to stop adding whistles and bells to the HR2x software, implement DLB (which so far they appear unwilling to do), and focus on the stability, robustness and reliability of the basic DVR functions.

I think implementing that wish list would have a positive effect on user evaluations.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2008)

Ken S said:


> So, even though it may be better than it was that doesn't make it "good" and doesn't mean the people that are getting them for the first time aren't experiencing problems. Think about the last six months with the HR...pulled back national releases, system-wide lockups, downloads during primetime TV. People here brush these things off because 1. they've grown used to that type of thing with this device and 2. they're generally more experienced with DVRs in general.


The HR2x line does seem to have regressed over the last few months. I've noticed an increase in black-screen recordings and lockups recently. The skimpy guide information and infrequent updates to reflect programming changes are still an issue as well. And the search functionality is still lacking compared to Tivo.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Nicholsen said:


> The truth is out there, but I doubt it is a vast conspiracy too well hidden to be uncovered by TIVO users going about their daily life.
> 
> Maybe many HR2x users who are not part of the CE program (and therefore not emotionally invested in the HR2x) are simply unimpressed with what they see?


Exactly. It isn't all the other sites that are slanted in their view of the HR2x series, it is those that have a vested interest in the HR2x that are slanted.

Lately, everytime there is a negative review of D*'s DVRs from some other site, people here are convinced it is some conspiracy by Tivo or the site that posted the review "doesn't like Directv".

Like it or not, the perception outside of this cocoon of the HR2x series, is fairly negative.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> While I don't deny that the HR20 was bad for many at first and people still have problems (who doesn't with any consumer electronic device, I can find a hate site/blog for anything) you have hit the nail on the head here. There are a good number of those that drank the Tivo coolaid that to this day organize to smear the DirecTV DVR everywhere on the net with bad reviews.


Your right, the bad reviews couldn't possibly have anything to do with missed recordings, lack of basic features or prime time reboots two weeks in a row.


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## ImBack234 (Aug 26, 2008)

Grentz said:


> Cnet reviews are pretty much crappy for everything.
> 
> Remember, those upset find places to rant, those not upset usually do not go out of their way to tell others how happy they are.


They are. They gave the VIP722 a good review.  :eek2:


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

raott said:


> Exactly. It isn't all the other sites that are slanted in their view of the HR2x series, it is those that have a vested interest in the HR2x that are slanted.
> 
> Lately, everytime there is a negative review of D*'s DVRs from some other site, people here are convinced it is some conspiracy by Tivo or the site that posted the review "doesn't like Directv".
> 
> Like it or not, the perception outside of this cocoon of the HR2x series, is fairly negative.


so those that don't have problems are slanted?


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

David MacLeod said:


> so those that don't have problems are slanted?


Perhaps you should re-read my post because that isn't even in the ballpark of what I said.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

raott said:


> Your right, the bad reviews couldn't possibly have anything to do with missed recordings, lack of basic features or prime time reboots two weeks in a row.


Don't put words into my mouth, I never said that. One only has to troll various sites to know there used to be an organized effort to make DirecTV look bad because people were ticked they dumped Tivo. It's very obvious. And these people continue to this day. But that by no means says that people don't have problems and don't post honest reviews which are negative. Perhaps you need to reread my post.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

ImBack234 said:


> They are. They gave the VIP722 a good review.  :eek2:


Don't know how good a review it is,when you look at The Bad: A Guide that's Uglier than Tivo or DirecTV!.:eek2: :lol:


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## stepck (Oct 28, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> The people that have the most problems are generally the ones in the ce program... The only think that is stupendous about that is that Directv is actually taking its customers imput and adding things we suggest at an incredible rate, in comparison to any other company and how they listen to others... Thats more company based, not unit based...


"Directv is actually taking its customers imput and adding things we suggest at an incredible rate."

I'd prefer that they get the features that are supposed to work working before/while adding additional features. To give you my specific results: I currently have 3 HD DVRs in my house. In order to get 3 that sort-of work, I'm on my fifth unit (not counting the DirecTivo units I've replaced). I had one HR20 that the second off-air tuner stopped working on a month after I got the unit. I had one HR21 that would freeze and refuse to respond to anything. Two of my current units (one HR20 and one HR21) have to be manually restarted (RBR) anytime a national release comes out. This is not the type of behavior I expect from consumer electronics.

The frustrating thing for me is that I like DirecTV service, and I love DVRs. I just wish that DirecTV provided a DVR that worked first before adding bells and whistles. (Although I'll admit I would like to see DLB.)


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

harsh said:


> Ignoring the contributions of the CE program (because we can't discuss it here), can you give some examples the volumes of wish list items were picked off "at an incredible rate"?


In the post [post=1860597]Wish List (2 years old)[/post]:


Doug Brott said:


> It's been 2 years since I started the original HR20 Wish List .. Steve graciously took over for me in August 2007 and has kept things rolling for more than a year in the most recent HR2x Wish List.
> 
> We've come a long way in 2+ years of seeking out new features .. Here's a list of our granted wishes:
> 
> ...


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## apace (Feb 1, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> How is D* doing on providing DLB or something better than DLB? I don't think I would ever give a DVR a grade better than a "C+" if it didn't provide dual live buffers.
> 
> *My "wish list" is short. I would like D* to stop adding whistles and bells to the HR2x software, implement DLB (which so far they appear unwilling to do), and focus on the stability, robustness and reliability of the basic DVR functions.
> 
> I think implementing that wish list would have a positive effect on user evaluations.*


I'll second this motion!


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

LOL thats funny:lol: :lol: The only reason Directv is listening to any of us is because they are using this forum as a design and test platform. We have probably saved them 10's of millions of dollars in testing and debugging, not to mention we have sped up the normal process by 10 fold.



inkahauts said:


> The people that have the most problems are generally the ones in the ce program... The only think that is stupendous about that is that Directv is actually taking its customers imput and adding things we suggest at an incredible rate, in comparison to any other company and how they listen to others... Thats more company based, not unit based...


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## Juppers (Oct 26, 2006)

While alot of people here are used to the HR2x's, to someone new to the unit, it is horribly slow, is overly complicated, and extremely frustrating. Not too long ago there was a post here about Jenna Fischer from The Office venting on her myspace page about the unit. It didn't take many days at all for her to get fed up with it and cancel her account. The Cnet reviews just reflect alot of valid opinions out there about the unit. The only thing keeping me with DirecTV is the programming, but the poor HR2x performance and the recent addition of lots of HD on Dish and my local cable company are beginning to make me reconsider my choice.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Ken i see your point, I guess it's hard to imagine what my Hr20 experience would be like without this forum. When I think about it I can imagine how much more frustrating many of the problems must have been for regular users. Still I do think that people who buy a unit now in Nov 2008 should be having a fairly good experience.



Ken S said:


> dread,
> 
> In your opinion it's a very good receiver in the opinions of many others it's not. Now, yes...I'd agree that some people might be having problems because of the switch from DirecTivo to an HR2x, and a lot of problems might involve the upgrade installs that went along with the thing.
> 
> ...


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## ImBack234 (Aug 26, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> LOL thats funny:lol: :lol: The only reason Directv is listening to any of us is because they are using this forum as a design and test platform. We have probably saved them 10's of millions of dollars in testing and debugging, not to mention we have sped up the normal process by 10 fold.


If that's the case then you guys should get paid for beta testing.


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## AVPhan (Jun 22, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> I decided to post another prime example.My Uncle lives 30 minutes away from me so I hardly can get over to see him.Well he's kinda funny cause when he get's pissed off,he get's pissed off.So he first had DirecTV with the DirecTivo he had a case that pissed him off so he went with Dish.Then Dish pissed him off so now he is back with DirecTV.I went over there the other day,he has the HR21-700.
> 
> I could tell after he told me what package he had(Choice) that his "Channels I Get" was totally messed up(not correct).Did I tell him?.Hell no! I ain't pissing him off!.:eek2:
> 
> So this is a prime example why there are still negative reviews to this day this product still has problems that are not fixed.:nono2:


+1.
Fix the simple things that a DVR should be first. Enhance later.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Juppers said:


> While alot of people here are used to the HR2x's, to someone new to the unit, it is horribly slow, is overly complicated, and extremely frustrating. Not too long ago there was a post here about Jenna Fischer from The Office venting on her myspace page about the unit. It didn't take many days at all for her to get fed up with it and cancel her account. The Cnet reviews just reflect alot of valid opinions out there about the unit. The only thing keeping me with DirecTV is the programming, but the poor HR2x performance and the recent addition of lots of HD on Dish and my local cable company are beginning to make me reconsider my choice.


Yep, and another guy wote a bad review and when we got him here and did some checking it turned out to be a bad multiswitch that caused all his problems (which a D* tech replaced for him)..


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> While I don't deny that the HR20 was bad for many at first and people still have problems (who doesn't with any consumer electronic device, I can find a hate site/blog for anything) you have hit the nail on the head here. There are a good number of those that drank the Tivo coolaid that to this day organize to smear the DirecTV DVR everywhere on the net with bad reviews. Just like the anti-DRM crowd and the bad reviews of Spore and whatnot at Amazon. The bad review has nothing to do with Spore as a game, it's simply smearing the game for the bad DRM. Same here, many of these bad "reviews" are simply "it's not Tivo and DirecTV kicked my dog so they get a 1 out of 5 for being mean" type posts. It's rather funny actually.


To be honest I never had a DirecTivo until about 3 months ago.Why?.Because all these people were saying how great a DirecTivo was.Well I bought a used HR10-250 which I plan to use for SD and run it alongside my R22-100.What is my idea of both?.Well Tivo does some things right and so does DirecTV.I like both and plan to keep running both on my TV.

The best thing that DirecTV could do is what they did bring Tivo back give subscribers a choice and keep both DVRs.When I decide to go HD I will still run both products but for some to have a choice will be the best way to make everyone happy.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

harsh said:


> Ignoring the contributions of the CE program (because we can't discuss it here), can you give some examples the volumes of wish list items were picked off "at an incredible rate"?


I can speak to it in more general terms.

I have followed closely the DVR industry since 1998 and have owned 13 different DVRs and had close experience with a handful more. Before the HR2x, if there was a good DVR out there, it stayed good. Unfortunately, all that made it into that category have disappeared save Tivo. If a DVR was bad, it remained bad. It seems that if folks weren't clever enough to put out a good product in the first place, then it was doomed to never being able to be upgraded in the field to becoming a good product.

The HR20 changed that. It started out as a total POS boat anchor. I got the first one the local Ironwood tech had ever seen in August of 2006. I gamely tried to adjust, but it just wasn't ready for prime time, and after a week of trying I finally made them take it out and buy me another HR10-250. By December of last year I was dragged kicking and screaming back to the HR20, and was pleasantly surprised, bowled over by how much better it had become. This was fully unexpected, and a totally new phenomenon in the DVR landscape.

Since last December it has only become better, with more clever features and even-better reliability. The CE program (which I do not participate in) is partly the reason, and was a good idea. You really have to tip your hat to how far the HR2x has come. Many of us never expected it to ever compete in the same league as Tivo, and are pleasantly surprised by how many things it actually does better than Tivo or any other DVR.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Is two years to nail most of a wish list what you would consider expeditious? I was looking for examples of "rapid" solutions that were a direct and demonstrable result of the CE program.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

harsh said:


> Is two years to nail most of a wish list what you would consider expeditious? I was looking for examples of "rapid" solutions that were a direct and demonstrable result of the CE program.


Any objective scrutiny of the "progress" made in the wishlist and you'll find a whole bunch of items that were in the manual but not delivered upon release, you'll also find a number of basic shortcomings that should never have been there in the first place. I hardly call actually adding something that was in the manual but not there on release as "progress".

The big ticket shortcomings - ie DLBs, MRV, removing limits on SLs remain untouched.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

I am really unhappy with my HR21. The lack of DLB is issue one with me, followed by the miserably bad slo-mo. The generally slow and inconsistent response to the remote and the poorly implemented slip/skip function are right behind. I think this is my last year for the Sunday Ticket, unless the new TIVO is shipped with DLB by August of next year.

Since 0290B, I am also getting random pixelation and streaking, and I continue to have the major sound level variation problems that appeared in 0290, but were never fixed in 0290B. 

I think the negative reviews in Cnet are simply other users (like me) who are not happy with what they are getting for what they are paying. Only the HR2x cognoscenti on this board on interested in such esoteric fare as (i) checking and logging signal strengths on all channels, (ii) the virtues of solid copper low loss rf cables, (iii) the best method to troubleshoot suspect BBC dongles, or (iv) the best vintage of the currently available software downloads.

Everyone else wants to plug the box in and have it work. Using a DVR should not be the equivalent of running a science fair project. 

You have to wonder about polls on this board where many people give the HR2x a score of 5 out of 5 when (i) it is missing a basic feature like DLB and (ii) there were two "across the system" lockups/reboots in the 30 days before the poll. How bad would it have to get for those people to give it a 4 out 5, just for one month? Catch on fire?

The real question is how can roughly 20% of the posters responding to polls on this board insist month after month that the box is a 5 of 5.


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## jdmaxell (Dec 12, 2007)

HR21=POS

If I had to RBR my Xbox 360 as much as my HR21, I think I would have to kill myself.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

raott said:


> Any objective scrutiny of the "progress" made in the wishlist and you'll find a whole bunch of items that were in the manual but not delivered upon release, you'll also find a number of basic shortcomings that should never have been there in the first place. I hardly call actually adding something that was in the manual but not there on release as "progress".
> 
> The big ticket shortcomings - ie DLBs, MRV, removing limits on SLs remain untouched.


Agree 100%.

I wonder how many items on that wishlist are/were already on the competitions units. After looking at the list, it does appear that a great amount of those items are just fix-it-ticket items, not necesarily upgrades. But far be it for me to question Directv or anything to do with the CE program, all that does around here is bring you grief or a label.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> I am really unhappy with my HR21. The lack of DLB is issue one with me, followed by the miserably bad slo-mo. The generally slow and inconsistent response to the remote and the poorly implemented slip/skip function are right behind. I think this is my last year for the Sunday Ticket, unless the new TIVO is shipped with DLB by August of next year.
> 
> Since 0290B, I am also getting random pixelation and streaking, and I continue to have the major sound level variation problems that appeared in 0290, but were never fixed in 0290B.
> 
> ...


You just gotta ignore the 1s and the 5s. It's neither.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

raott said:


> Any objective scrutiny of the "progress" made in the wishlist and you'll find a whole bunch of items that were in the manual but not delivered upon release, you'll also find a number of basic shortcomings that should never have been there in the first place. I hardly call actually adding something that was in the manual but not there on release as "progress".


Nonetheless, I'm still looking for examples to support inkahaut's "stupendous" claim. If they include implementation of features not delivered at roll-out, that's fine with me.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Nicholsen said:


> I am really unhappy with my HR21. The lack of DLB is issue one with me, followed by the miserably bad slo-mo. The generally slow and inconsistent response to the remote and the poorly implemented slip/skip function are right behind. I think this is my last year for the Sunday Ticket, unless the new TIVO is shipped with DLB by August of next year.
> 
> Since 0290B, I am also getting random pixelation and streaking, and I continue to have the major sound level variation problems that appeared in 0290, but were never fixed in 0290B.
> 
> ...


The question that is real hard to answer is "is this box reliable or not?". And the reason its hard to answer is that most folks don't look beyond their limited anecdotal experience and their emotional reaction to issues they have.

For instance, you list half a dozen problems that I've never had. Not one of them, other than poor slo-mo implementation, which has apparently been recently fixed (all I know is it works now and didn't before). The problem appeared to be that if you "press and hold" that the unit continued to respond to whatever code stream it last received, meaning that the lag time between taking one's finger off the button after realizing that slo-mo was in effect was enough for the unit to interpret it as another command that essentially cancelled slo-mo mode. Adding a short time-out to the software in the response to sequential codes seems to have fixed that.

I've never had pixellation, streaking (WTF is that?--digital video should never streak under any circumstances), or audio issues, and 30SKIP and 30SLIP work just fine all the time, as does the remote.

So there are a lot of posts that say "The HR2x is a POS", and when you dig deep enough to see why that was said, it was usually because the single one they have experience with has problems, or more likely, it was just never installed properly. It isn't that "the HR2x" has problems, it's that _"Their HR2x" _has problems. Likewise, there are a lot of posts that say "The HR2x is wonderful", and again, the typical reason is because the one they have has no problems. That makes each of those posts pro or con less than helpful or informative by themselves.

What is needed is to look at the _aggregate number _of such posts overall. If there are a lot of posts condemning something, or praising something, then there may be some truth in there somewhere. But the sample has to be pretty huge to really be relevant, which means you have to have an overwhelming number of posts one way or the other, or at least a significantly larger number than are posted for other DVRs to make something else comparitively better or worse. And, looking at that big picture, the HR2x today seems to be nearly as fully-formed and reliable as the HR10-250. Not quite surpassing it, but both quickly improving and within reach. Maybe without the glowy legendary history, and maybe also with a lot of prejudice left over from earlier days when it was NOT a contender.

But, I can also find you posts just like those about the HR2x that both condemn and praise the Tivo HR10-250, considered by most to be the best (and first) workhorse HD DVR of all time, the "gold standard". But what is relevant is that there are fewer negative posts regarding it compared to the HR2x, which is why I feel that I can state with confidence that the HR2x is at least in the same league, if not quite to that level. At the same time, the negatives regarding any other DVR than the HR2x are significantly higher. And there are a lot of households where the HR2x works better than the HR10-250, which has been plagued with issues over the last 2 years that have dragged it down a couple notches (not to mention that the only HD available on it will quickly be limited to OTA).

For instance, I have to use my HR20 to back up recordings made on my two HR10s because even if I preventatively reboot them just before prime time, there is no guarantee that another spontaneous reboot on either of them won't punch holes in my recordings, which still happens a couple times a week. But the HR20 I have seems to always get the recording. I know I can count on it, while I can't comfortably even turn my back on my Tivos. Does that put me in an informed-enough position to proclaim to all that "Tivo is a POS and the HR2x is the end-all and be-all?" Hardly. It's one experience among many, and so not really significant to the big picture until there's a couple hundred posts similar to it in a 2-3 month period. Otherwise, it's not really any more significant than a crazy streetcorner rant.

And sorry, but DLB is not a "basic feature" that should be considered ubiquitous to all DVRs, it is an ancillary feature that many are used to having with Tivo that many also wish they had with the HR2x. You simply wishing you had it and missing it are not nearly enough to classify it as a basic feature. The HR2x just does not have that feature, sadly (although I couldn't give a rat's hat whether it has it or not). You can consider it an oversight to have not included it in the basic design if you wish, but then I can also consider the lack of a built-in espresso maker an oversight as well. "Pause" is an example of a "basic feature".

I can understand your frustration but I don't get the negative attitude toward the progress of the HR2x being more "open source" than say, Tivo or any other DVR. The CE program and DTV's commitment to making the HR2x a viable product and their active response to feedback right here on this forum is very basic to why its a true contender and a reliable replacement for the HR10. Everyone else's DVR program seems to have floundered by keeping everything in house and close to the vest and not responding to feedback, while the HR2x has flourished. True, they've had a very long way to come. But what also can't be denied is that they've come a very long way.

This is a wide, diverse world on this forum, and there are a lot of different subjects of interest. You may not like them all, but then you're also neither compelled nor required to contribute or even click in to threads that don't concern you. No offense meant at all, but IMHO it seems eliteist _at best _to condemn what others choose to discuss here, and somewhat curious that the ones you condemn are simply the ones you just don't care about, while what's deemed important here is what's important to you. It's really not just your world with the rest of us merely living in it. This forum belongs to everybody.

BTW, since you bring it up, solid copper "low loss" cable HAS no positive virtues over anything else. First of all, there is no such thing as "low loss". RG-6 cable all has the same loss, pretty much, unless you can repeal the laws of physics and mathematics that govern cable loss, which is strictly defined by an equation regarding the properties of the conductors and dielectrics used and their dimensions. About the only parameter with any variability regarding DBS drop cable is shielding percentage, which is unimportant due to the fact that L-band frequencies are not competitive (virtually nothing else lives there). Secondly, "solid" center-conductors are used almost exclusively because there is no good connector for stranded conductors. Stranded conductors actually have less loss than solid at L-band frequencies due to the skin effect.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

TomCat said:


> And sorry, but DLB is not a "basic feature" that should be considered ubiquitous to all DVRs, it is an ancillary feature that many are used to having with Tivo that many also wish they had with the HR2x. You simply wishing you had it and missing it are not nearly enough to classify it as a basic feature.


How many different brands of DVRs does DLB have to be on before you consider it a basic feature? - DLBs are on just about every competitors DVRs. Go to the DLB thread, there is a list. It isn't just Tivo.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

TomCat:

Just a couple of points.

If a significant number of people don't like a user interface, it probably isn't very good, even if certain dedicated users have learned to use it and eventually come to like it. The HR2x slo-mo and slip/skip are not very good, in my opinion.

I think DLB is ubiquitous among high-end DVRs. The Hr2x is the exception to the rule.

The "streaking" I am getting is not what you remember from the 70's. It is a complete pixelation that starts mid-screen from time to time, and runs to the right side, covering only 2-5% of the vertical area. It is unlike the garden variety pixelation that I have previously seem from time to time on MPEG4 and OTA related to signal fade, weather, etc. It appears to have arrived with 0290B.

The sound level issue has been reported by dozens of users, both in the bug thread and in a separate thread on the board. It appears to be software/transmission related, and is a major drag.

One last note, I don't mean to denigrate those who have the time and energy to stay on top of the esoteric HR2x issues. They are a valuable resource to the rest of us. I do think some of those experts are not objective in rating the HR2x.

My point is that it is difficult to build a successful consumer electronic franchise on a product that requires extensive trouble shooting. A DVR needs to be more like an iPod or an Xbox, and less like PC software.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> TomCat:
> 
> Just a couple of points.
> 
> ...


+1

Good points and very well said.


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## bluemoon737 (Feb 21, 2007)

jdmaxell said:


> HR21=POS
> 
> If I had to RBR my Xbox 360 as much as my HR21, I think I would have to kill myself.


Hmmm...I guess your Xbox 360 didn't suffer the ring of death then (keep in mind that it was just a year ago that MS had to admit they had a flawed product)? I'm not saying the HR2X is the best thing since sliced bread...it has it's flaws, but comparing it to the Xbox 360 in terms of reliability...well, I'll take the HR2X any day.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

The Xbox did have some big hardware issues when it was released. I am not a big Microsoft fan, but this is one thing they got right.

I believe the company replaced many of them for free (at an incredible cost to Microsoft.) I also understand the boxes worked fine until the day they died. The newer boxes seem to be free from the ring of death problem.

I have a newer one and it has been completely reliable and trouble free. I have never had a crash (check that, maybe one), or had to update the software. The multiple fans can be a little loud at times, but they cycle up and down as needed, and they do keep the box cool.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> Nonetheless, I'm still looking for examples to support inkahaut's "stupendous" claim. If they include implementation of features not delivered at roll-out, that's fine with me.


couple I can think of right now:
1 moved/added closed captioning to quick menu
2 added tripple tap to searches
3 added back button (back arrow)
I know there are a lot more but these are one's I know they added/changed at our request/suggestion..


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nicholsen said:


> If a significant number of people don't like a user interface, it probably isn't very good, even if certain dedicated users have learned to use it and eventually come to like it.


You *do* realize there are lots of people that don't like the Tivo UI, right? I guess that means that Tivo probably isn't very good either. 

How quickly we forget the Replay vs. Tivo vs. UTV wars.


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## kevinwmsn (Aug 19, 2006)

Another thing the HR20/21 are getting bad reviews are the other pieces of the equipment that are at fault and the end user blames the box. HD changed since HR2X has came out. Different dishes came out, The Sidecar dishes had with LNB for 110/119 going out. Installs weren't getting peaked properly for 99c/103c because D10 and D11 were launched yet. Some people were also using the old multiswitches that can't handle the proper frequencies coming from the new satellites. BBCs are also flaky and some didn't even get installed, the newer model boxes and SWM setups don't need them.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

Gee, hate Tivo much?



bonscott87 said:


> There are a good number of those that drank the *Tivo* coolaid that to this day organize to smear the DirecTV DVR





bonscott87 said:


> One only has to troll various sites to know there used to be an organized effort to make DirecTV look bad because people were ticked they dumped *Tivo*. It's very obvious. And these people continue to this day.





bonscott87 said:


> You *do* realize there are lots of people that don't like the *Tivo* UI, right? I guess that means that *Tivo* probably isn't very good either.


Maybe you should tell us how you really feel about Tivo 

Again, I'm not sure what Tivo really has to do with thread, and why it always seems to become a Tivo vs Directv or Directv vs Tivo argument around here.
As another poster put it recently, "No black helicopter conspiracies needed".
The HR probably gets more bad marks now more than ever simply because there are many more of the units out there, and they are simply quite problematic for many people. Simply scanning the threads on the forum tells you that.

Just because someone compares the HR to a Tivo doesn't make it a conspiricy, hell, it doesn't even mean they're Tivo fanboys. I think it's simply becaues the Tivo HR10 was (not necesarily my opinion) the HD DVR benchmark prior to D*'s DVR series. It's only natural to compare the two.

Maybe you should find a negative review of the Tivo unit and start a new thread.

Regards,
Frank

(didn't really mean to single you out bonscott87, I just found it amusing that all your posts had an agenda against Tivo. That's all)

[flamesuit on]


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> You *do* realize there are lots of people that don't like the Tivo UI, right? I guess that means that Tivo probably isn't very good either.
> 
> How quickly we forget the Replay vs. Tivo vs. UTV wars.


When an independent reviewer says that the HR2x has an "excellent easy-to-use interface and remote" (Cnet review of TIVO XL) we can have that debate.

In the meantime, I need to secretly coordinate with the other members of the Tivo Underground to plan our next move.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Flyrx7 said:


> Gee, hate Tivo much?


Not at all. Got my first Tivo back in 2000, had several over the years, still have one going. What I didn't do was drink the coolaid. I'll use whatever DVR works, don't care what the UI is. 

Was simply pointing out the truth and the obvious, with a little tongue in cheek. Seriously, there was in the past a concerted effort by Tivo zealots to make DirecTV look bad. Again, it's all documented on the various forums and easy enough to find. And again, certainly many bad reviews are from real users with real problems. But we always must remember the underbelly of the Internet out there.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Flyrx7 said:


> Maybe you should find a negative review of the Tivo unit and start a new thread.


Ok, here ya go. Review, on CNET, for the Tivo Series 3. While not totally negative the average user rating is only 3 out of 5 and plenty of negative reviews in there. Editor review is 3.5 out o 5.

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...d-dvr/4505-6474_7-32065631.html?tag=mncol;lst

Just posting because you asked. 

Now compare that to the HR20 review we have a match in the editor review of 3.5 out of 5 and the user reviews are a 2 out of 5. So all in all pretty similar.

Soooooooo, you wanna tell me that Tivo is the almighty and doesn't get any negative reviews?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Seems to be that Tivo reviews, not just by users, but by editors on many sites started dropping about 2 yrs ago. 
This forum, and nothing wrong with it, it is a D* forum, is the most pro D* DVR site out there. Granted its because people come here to share and find fix's and work arounds, and information, which is good for the HR2X.
I have always taken User Reviews with a grain of salt, way to many times have I seen a user review by somebody that hasn't even touched the product. 
One thing you do have to do when reading reviews, is pay attention to issues, and features that you would use or find to be an issue. When the vast majority of users and Editors all complain about the same thing, no matter what the product is, Houston there is a problem. No bigger problem than Perception. 
I have only used a few HR21's, and haven't been overly impressed, and its mainly the way I watch TV with the family. Today with the Charger game on, and the final race of the season is a good example, of how a HR2X just wouldn't work for us. NOT trying to insight a flamewar, but there are still lots of features missing on HR2x machines that are already on other systems. I am extremely surprised that AT&T uverse has, launched a product with MRV before D* has. That has to be a blow, as MRV has been a well talked about upcoming feature for just shy of 2 yrs, and its still missing on the HR2x, just like DLB, and yes DLB is a feature, because the competition makes it one. Nothing worse for product, than for a Editor review to point out that a product is missing a feature, that is carried by others. Uncommited users will look at that and think its a inferior product. 
I find it funny that people blame all the disgruntled Tivo users for all the bad reviews for the HR2x, and admit that the HR2x when 1st released wasn't ready for primetime.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Flyrx7 said:


> Maybe you should tell us how you really feel about Tivo


I think he did.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

GrumpyBear said:


> ... *and yes DLB is a feature, because the competition makes it one.* Nothing worse for product, than for a Editor review to point out that a product is missing a feature, that is carried by others. Uncommited users will look at that and think its a inferior product.


I just thought that would look better in bold font.
Well said.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

GrumpyBear said:


> I am extremely surprised that AT&T uverse has launched a product with MRV before D* has.


No surprise here. MRV has been around for nearly a decade, Replay users will remind us.  Can't explain DirecTV's delay other then they had to spend a lot longer stabilizing the platform first they they had planned on (and yes, some still believe it's not there yet).



> I find it funny that people blame all the disgruntled Tivo users for all the bad reviews for the HR2x, and admit that the HR2x when 1st released wasn't ready for primetime.


Nobody has blamed all bad reviews on Tivo users. Not even close. Methinks people need to reread the tongue in cheek crack about the Tivo army which indeed have made some effort to put bad reviews out there, but by no means are they all of them (I doubt they are anyway). Besides, anyone that pays attention to reviews with more then a grain of salt is asking for trouble anyway. Based on reviews alone I might think the Tivo platform is no better then any other no matter if true or not.  And I can say the same for *any* product.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Nobody has blamed all bad reviews on Tivo users. Not even close. Methinks people need to reread the tongue in cheek crack about the Tivo army which indeed have made some effort to put bad reviews out there, but by no means are they all of them (I doubt they are anyway). Besides, anyone that pays attention to reviews with more then a grain of salt is asking for trouble anyway. Based on reviews alone I might think the Tivo platform is no better then any other no matter if true or not.  And I can say the same for *any* product.


I phrased that wrong. 
What I really meant, is people that have posted, about the Tivo users complaining about the HR2x, and at the sametime saying that the HR2x wasn't ready for primetime at its release. Maybe some of those Tivo users had a reason to complain with having to deal with a product that wasn't ready yet.


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

I have had a HDVR2 DirecTivo, a VIP622 and a HR21-700. I made these choices based on content not on who made the DVR. My experience with these three units closely mirrors the CNET ratings. 

First the DirecTivo.

Reliability of this box was good, it recorded what I wanted it to without fail and the trick play functions worked instantly. However doing anything with the series passes was horrible. 

Features of this box is limited, it has DLB and you could upgrade the internal drive for more recording space. However the box was hackable so you could add some of the missing features.

I rate it a 3.5

Second the VIP622

Reliability of this box is very good, it recorded what I wanted it to without fail and the trick play functions worked near instantly (not as fast as the DirecTivo but a lot faster than the HR21). It had two random reboots in the 1 ½ years I had it.

Features of this box is very good, it has DLB, pip, split screen, MRV and OTA tuner (you could record three programs at once, two sat and one OTA.) The search worked well but the interface is not as good as the HR. You can add an external drive if you pay a one-time $40 fee and it is archive only (it does not add to recording capacity). I definitely like the HR drive solution better.

I rate it a 4.0

And last the HR21-700

Reliability of this box is poor. The remote response is infuriatingly slow compared to the others. In this NR I have the random ½ sec audio/video glitch. In the previous NR I had the missing recordings problem if I didn’t restart at least once a week. Before that, 771 errors on one tuner if I didn’t restart every other day. Reliability has gotten better; I can just about live with the current audio/video glitches.

Features of this box is good, the single tap record double tap series link is nice, external drive to increase recording capacity is very good. The search interface in very good thou it misses stuff sometimes which is not good. The 50 series limit is ridiculous. And it lack of DLB, pip, split screen, MRV and OTA tuner seriously limit its functionality.

I rate it a 3.0 at this time. With the previous two NR’s I would have rated it a 2.5. If they fix the reliability problems I will move it to a 3.5. Or if they add the missing features I will move it to a 4.0. If both I will move it to a 4.5. But at this time I believe it deserves a 3.0.

So, since my ratings are close to the CNET ratings, does that mean that I drank the TIVO cool aid or is it possible that I and the CNET reviewer had a different experience with the HR than you did.

Maybe D is hiding subliminal messages in the sat feeds to make you think there is an organized conspiracy by the TIVO underground.:eek2:


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

I don't think I would give MRV to the ViP series. Its similar to what the next wave of MRV for recording and playing and making sure its in HD, not SD.

As for the External Hard drive. I thought on the HRXX an external, replaced the interanl Harddrive. so a HR20-700, has 700gb's, but once you add a external drive you lose the internal, and only the external works. So if you added a 1TB drive net gain is 300gb's, and the external is married to the unit it was connected too, unless you wiped it out, before connecting it to a another HRXX. 

I would have paid the connection fee, for the ViP622, now, but I didn't until I was able to get in wavied on the 1st ViP622, I would really like it to add to total diskspace, but I have gotten used to it as being an Archive drive, actually 2 are now Archive drives. One nice thing about the Archive, is you can then connect it to any ViP on your account. I have a 622 up at my Parents in Idaho, and I will taken a drive with me, activate, the ViP and connect up my Archive drive, and put on shows to catch up on, in the evening after hunting or fishing allday.


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Now I know some of us disagree about the HR20/21 reliability and performance but come on lets be fair, the HR20/21 have gotten a lot better and as of now it works pretty well for the most part. So whats up with all the recent negative reviews? Anybody have any idea why this receiver is still being panned?


...my 2 HR-21 700 look very pretty sitting there. It must be the software


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## Albie (Jan 26, 2007)

GrumpyBear said:


> As for the External Hard drive. I thought on the HRXX an external, replaced the interanl Harddrive. so a HR20-700, has 700gb's, but once you add a external drive you lose the internal, and only the external works. So if you added a 1TB drive net gain is 300gb's, and the external is married to the unit it was connected too, unless you wiped it out, before connecting it to a another HRXX.


You are correct that if you add the external drive it replaces the internal drive .

As far as the drive size the hr20/21s are 300/320 GB and the HR22/23 are 500 GB

Tha last three numbers in the model name are the manufacturer not the hard drive size. 100 is RCA/Thompson/Audiovox or whatever they are calling themselves these days, 200 is Samsung, 300 is Phillips, 500 is Humax, 600 is LG, 700 is Pace. Can't remember 400 and 800 but I don't believe either company makes any current or recent boxes for D*


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Albie said:


> You are correct that if you add the external drive it replaces the internal drive .
> 
> As far as the drive size the hr20/21s are 300/320 GB and the HR22/23 are 500 GB
> 
> Tha last three numbers in the model name are the manufacturer not the hard drive size. 100 is RCA/Thompson/Audiovox or whatever they are calling themselves these days, 200 is Samsung, 300 is Phillips, 500 is Humax, 600 is LG, 700 is Pace. Can't remember 400 and 800 but I don't believe either company makes any current or recent boxes for D*


Thanks for the correction. I read a post some time ago that said the 700 had a 700gb drive. Your explanation makes a LOT more sense, to add that 1gig external drive to replace a 300/320 internal.


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## Albie (Jan 26, 2007)

Here is some food for thought.

How many DVRs have to deal with both MPEG2 and MPEG4 data streams?

The HRs and the Dish VIPs. Although I can not find any actual specifics, I believe that decoding MPEG4 video is more processor intense than decoding MPEG2 video.

Also I don't think there is any box out there that has to work with a more complex data delivery system than the HRs. Even the VIPs don't have to deal with the frequency stack plan that the HRs do. The HRs have to cope with a new Ka band data stream/delivery system that seems to be less fault tolerant than the more mature Ku band. While I don't think that it is the cause of all the problems I think it certainly makes life for the HRs considerably harder.

My anecdotal experience (Yes it is only my experience so take it for whatever you feel it is worth). I was having some missed/blank recordings and instant keep/delete recordings as well as frequent signal losses due to weather. When I checked my signal strengths I was getting from low 90s (101/110/119) to low 60s (99C/99S/103C/103S) so I didn't think too much of it. When I returned to my house after Hurricane Gustav it was even worse with all signals about 10-15 pts lower. I called D* for a dish alignment and when the tech arrived he peaked the dish for me (lowest signals in the highs 80s now) and he replaced 4 compression fittings. Since then I have had no missed/blank recordings and the only time I have lost signal was during a 2+ inch/hour rain storm. remember your mileage will vary. 

My only other comment is for those who believe the new TIVO box next fall/winter (following spring/summer) is going to be problem free right out of the chute I believe they have a very large surprise ahead. The reasons...see above


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> I remember the old posts about the Cnet review and the divisions it created on this forum. Many of us including me believed that the HR20 from 9 months ago deserved it's very low user rating and some people thought that it did not. After months of not looking at the Cnet review I went back and looked at it again, to my surprise the Reviews have gotten worst:eek2: While I believe Directv should be punished for releasing an unfinished Alpha model to the public and that all the orginal low ratings should reflect that, I did not expect the most recent ratings to be so dismal, there worst than the old one's
> 
> Now I know some of us disagree about the HR20/21 reliability and performance but come on lets be fair, the HR20/21 have gotten a lot better and as of now it works pretty well for the most part. So whats up with all the recent negative reviews? Anybody have any idea why this receiver is still being panned?


I just spent the weekend unhiding my SD duplicates and moving my network series to the SDs because I can't stand the audio dropouts and pixel washes a day longer. They are on the rise again since 0x290. And I count 5 recordings since 0x290 that recorded a grand total of 1 min each. I bought chill pads to try and keep the temp down on these units in the hope that I don't have to send anymore back to DTV (I've sent 5 back in the last 16 months).

And you think they deserve better reviews? Given how much time and resource they've had to bring these units up to the performance and reliability that their price tags requisite, and they're not even close, I'd have to say they deserve an even worst review than they initially got.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

TIVOS are more reliable than D* HR20's.

That assumption goes down easy for anyone with an ounce of objectivity.
But mixed with DirecTV partisanship, it realy sticks in the throat.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jjohns said:


> TIVOS are more reliable than D* HR20's.
> 
> That assumption goes down easy for anyone with an ounce of objectivity.
> But mixed with DirecTV partisanship, it realy sticks in the throat.


I've lost more recordings on my TiVo's than I have on my HR2x .. So based on that fact alone which is more reliable?

As for that stick in your throat .. If you don't like the arrangement between DIRECTV and TiVo, there are other choices.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I've lost more recordings on my TiVo's than I have on my HR2x .. So based on that fact alone which is more reliable?


I really don't think you can have an objective comparison when you are only comparing a singular function. There are many other things that can fail to some degree other than losing recordings. I'm pretty sure it's the whole picture that influences the ratings, not just one function (and I'm pretty sure you know that).

Regards,
Frank


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

Doug Brott said:


> I've lost more recordings on my TiVo's than I have on my HR2x .. So based on that fact alone which is more reliable?


Sounds like you must have a connection problem with the tivo somewhere, since mine rarely lost recordings and when they did, it was due to bad guide data.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> I've lost more recordings on my TiVo's than I have on my HR2x .. So based on that fact alone which is more reliable?
> 
> As for that stick in your throat .. If you don't like the arrangement between DIRECTV and TiVo, there are other choices.


Other choices, now we get back to my favorite scenario, Dish ViP Hardware, with Direct's negotiation skills for new channels.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Let's not turn this into another TiVo thread. I would appreciate that comments about TiVos stay in one thread here or the Legacy Receiver forum.

Thanks.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

If anyone wants to see problems people have with losing recordings on Tivo's only needs to visit the Tivo Community forum daily. It's not all perfect like some would like others to believe.

But, back to the thread at hand...


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I've lost more recordings on my TiVo's than I have on my HR2x .. So based on that fact alone which is more reliable?
> 
> As for that stick in your throat .. If you don't like the arrangement between DIRECTV and TiVo, there are other choices.


"As for that stick in your throat .. If you don't like the arrangement between DIRECTV and TiVo, there are other choices."

Huh?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

jjohns said:


> "As for that stick in your throat .. If you don't like the arrangement between DIRECTV and TiVo, there are other choices."
> 
> Huh?


Other choices would be other hardware makers and even Direct TV themselves, stepping up and making the hardware and improvements


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjohns View Post
TIVOS are more reliable than D* HR20's.

That assumption goes down easy for anyone with an ounce of objectivity.
But mixed with DirecTV partisanship, it realy sticks in the throat.



Doug Brott said:


> I've lost more recordings on my TiVo's than I have on my HR2x .. So based on that fact alone which is more reliable?
> 
> As for that stick in your throat .. If you don't like the arrangement between DIRECTV and TiVo, there are other choices.


Ummm ..... he used the word "partisanship". I believe he's referring to the lack of objectivity on the board leading to biased and sometimes non sequitor replies.

...... and I have two Tivos in service since 2000. Missed recordings ---- zero. It's a meaningless statistic and argument unless you have inside access to DTV return and repair stats.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

The universal reply to any posting that "my DVR doesn't work right" has traditionally been something like this:

1. Mine works great.
2. You must have a bad installation.
3. Did you check your signal levels? Please check and post.
4. Did you replace the dongles? (Doesn't really apply here.)
5. Do you have new cables?
6. Did you realign the dish?
7. Was it raining?

So I pass that on for what its worth.  

Doug, I am sorry you had problems with your TIVO. But I think you are the exception to the rule


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> The universal reply to any posting that "my DVR doesn't work right" has traditionally been something like this:
> 
> 1. Mine works great.
> 2. You must have a bad installation.
> ...


Guess we just tend to be the "trying to help" type..


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> Doug, I am sorry you had problems with your TIVO. But I think you are the exception to the rule


I wouldn't say that I had problems, but in terms of reliability I've been happier with the HR2x, yes.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Nicholsen said:


> The universal reply to any posting that "my DVR doesn't work right" has traditionally been something like this:
> 
> 1. Mine works great.
> 2. You must have a bad installation.
> ...


That's because the universal posting by someone having a problem isn't "my DVR doesn't work right", it's "these DVRs are total crap, DirecTV is completely incompetent and clueless, my Tivo was perfect" and so on.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nicholsen said:


> Doug, I am sorry you had problems with your TIVO. But I think you are the exception to the rule


As would those with problems with the HR2x. 

By the way, have you checked the Tivo forum over the years? Plenty of people with problems. And the same responses happen there: "Mine's fine", "your signal must be bad", etc.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Why does the Dish and Comcast dvr's get flowers and the D* dvr's get weeds in the Cnet reviews? Could it be that the competitor's products are better? I do know that the Hr21-700's I have are not as trouble free as the Hr10 which is now retired. If I had to write a Cnet review, it would reflect the many issues reported at dbstalk regarding the Hr21 and the many, many software releases and get a rating of 3 on the 10 scale. My wife wants to pull the plug and go to AT&T U-verse, but I am hoping that the new Tivo model will return us to a happy D* family.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

allenn said:


> Why does the Dish and Comcast dvr's get flowers and the D* dvr's get weeds in the Cnet reviews? Could it be that the competitor's products are better? I do know that the Hr21-700's I have are not as trouble free as the Hr10 which is now retired. If I had to write a Cnet review, it would reflect the many issues reported at dbstalk regarding the Hr21 and the many, many software releases and get a rating of 3 on the 10 scale. My wife wants to pull the plug and go to AT&T U-verse, but I am hoping that the new Tivo model will return us to a happy D* family.


"If" I were to rate my (2) HR20s & (1) HR21, it would be 7-8 [out of 10]. Never had a Tivo, don't use DLB as my attention span doesn't lend to "bouncing around" [only channel surf in the guide], so I can't compare what I have [that seems to do what I want] to it.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

I agree with Bushwacr there is a total lack of objectivity on the dbstalk board leading to bias and sometimes non sequitur replies. How could the moderators be objective? They are too closely tied to D*. I think reviewers on Cnet reflect accurately the current performance of the HR series of dvr's. The software programming stinks in its current state! Given enough time, I think all will improve with the HR dvr's. I think Tivo has the advantage of experienced programmers and time. Remember, they are credited with the dvr invention. I wonder why D* had to re-invent the wheel? 

On a more positive note, I think the HR21 plus series is far better looking than my old HR10! Finally, the dbstalking heads may not be objective when it comes to the D* dvr's; but their insider position keeps us informed regarding: releases; software; and equipment. For that reason, I am glad they are here biased or not.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

allenn said:


> I agree with Bushwacr there is a total lack of objectivity on the dbstalk board leading to bias and sometimes non sequitur replies. How could the moderators be objective? They are too closely tied to D*. I think reviewers on Cnet reflect accurately the current performance of the HR series of dvr's. The software programming stinks in its current state! Given enough time, I think all will improve with the HR dvr's. I think Tivo has the advantage of experienced programmers and time. Remember, they are credited with the dvr invention. I wonder why D* had to re-invent the wheel?
> 
> On a more positive note, I think the HR21 plus series is far better looking than my old HR10! Finally, the dbstalking heads may not be objective when it comes to the D* dvr's; but their insider position keeps us informed regarding: releases; software; and equipment. For that reason, I am glad they are here biased or not.


I was actually just commenting that the Mod jumped the poster for the wrong reason and the Merry Band of Men was about to unleash their response bots.

I'm fairly sure everyone knows this is not an independent board as to reviews, criticisms, etc. but it contains helpful and useful information if you weed through the known fanboys. But that's true of the Tivo Board too.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

I think most of the MOD's/CE, are being pretty fair over all. They admit to problems, they just defend when they hear how flawless the TIVO was, when clearly it wasn't that Flawless and the TIVO has dropped in Ratings even more.
Reading over in the Whats really important poll, I see that CIG(Channels I Get) is still an issue, and can see why some still feel that the HR2x is still a work in progress, vastly improved, but still a work in progress, when you can't even guarantee recordings, the proper show or channels. I can't fathom how that isn't resolved.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

A criticism of D* is interpreted by some as a personal attack against them. 
Even when vehemently defending one's self regarding the DirecTV bias, there is always a veiled dig at TIVO inserted in their explanation.

The bias is there, of course. And there’s really nothing wrong with that. It’s the duplicitous nature of their position that is insulting.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

jjohns said:


> A criticism of D* is interpreted by some as a personal attack against them.
> Even when vehemently defending one's self regarding the DirecTV bias, there is always a veiled dig at TIVO inserted in their explanation.
> 
> The bias is there, of course. And there's really nothing wrong with that. It's the duplicitous nature of their position that is insulting.


Veiled? I agree with your comment; quite well said. I wish I'd have thought of that word.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I look forward to next year and reading the forum for the new DirecTV/Tivo.
By that time there will have been three years of many praising how well "their" Tivo had been compared to the HR POS. [For those thinking Bias, I'm not, just tried of unrealistic "Tivo fan" posts]
"What could have/should have" happened: Tivo offered and MPEG-4 upgrade to all of their loyal customers [two years ago]. After all, you paid a fortune to own your DVR. Then this "debate" could have gone on "side by side" [much like a Chevy/Ford/Dodge, etc.] instead of waiting until "next year".
BTW: I drive a Ford and it's a POS. :lol:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

:backtotop .. Now we are veering off into TiVo praising .. TiVo Bashing .. not to mention a bit of questioning moderation which, BTW, is against the forum rules.

Let's try to get this thread back onto the topic at hand and maintain some civility.

Thank You.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


>


^ ugly hat. :lol:


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> :backtotop .. Now we are veering off into TiVo praising .. TiVo Bashing .. not to mention a bit of questioning moderation which, BTW, is against the forum rules.
> 
> Let's try to get this thread back onto the topic at hand and maintain some civility.
> 
> Thank You.


Noone questioned the integrity of the mods.

So you are saying these comments in another thread were no nos and deserved comment from the mods as inappropriate?

Original Quote:
Originally Posted by raott View Post
As far as the CE program here, IMO, next to none, which is a good part of the reason you see such disdain among many on this site for the new Tivo product.

Reply unnamed:
!rolling .. yeah, that's it

Further reply Unnamed:
No, I have other reasons for my disdain:lol:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Bushwacr said:


> Noone questioned the integrity of the mods.
> 
> So you are saying these comments in another thread were no nos and deserved comment from the mods as inappropriate?
> 
> ...


Apparently you missed the "we" in my comment .. please .. :backtotop


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

I do not think the Cnet Ratings are puzzling. The negative views are the result of all the issues related to the D* HR dvr's. All one has to do is read through the various problems beginning with the first release until the current 0x029b. 

I spent a number of hours on resolving Media Share connectivity problems only to have the resolved in the 0x0290 release. I tried Tversity; Intel's software; reducing the folder sizes; creating playlists all to no avail. I purchased a new Linksys N router; added an antenna; tried hard wiring the ethernet. All for nothing, because it was D*'s lousy software that caused the failures. I now connect wirelessly to Media Share via a Linksys router with Microsoft Media Server. I can actually watch an entire movie without any snafus; play mp3's or view my pictures. 

How could I write a positive Cnet review after the Media Share problem and all the others mentioned in this forum?


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## Drewg5 (Dec 15, 2006)

Ahh the age old proprietary DVR debate..

In terms of how well a DVR works I have a few musts.

1) Records what I tell it to 

2) Easy to use UI

DVR's I have had in the past and currently:

HDVR2 - Never missed a recording. Unless the power was out. UI ok

R15-100 - Fails at recording - gets stuck in loops from time to time. IU so so

HR20-700 - Fails at creating serious links - Fails at recording shows with video/audio. IU so so

Windows Media Center - Records what I told it to (not a true dvr but close) UI painful

IPN430MC Cisco - Records what I tell it to - Has MRV - Web apps. UI undecided as of yet


I can see why people don't like the D* DVR line. Not that they are poorly constructed, but some of the basics need attention. That or more people working on the known issues, if the competition can release MRV, Web Aps, Single Wire solutions, to name a few in a short time frame; It will be difficult to convince the less tech savvy that progress is being made, and the competition will in the end have a bigger slice of the pie.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Guess it all depends on how you use it..
Mines never missed a recording...
I almost always use guide to set series links.. works very well and fast..
Easy to upgrade space..
wife can operate without any problem..
Works great for my use.. all 3 of them..


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

In over two years my units have missed a total of one recording.

I have never seen an explanation of how software can be causing so many people so many problems, and yet so many of us have had so few problems, all running the same software.


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## ebockelman (Aug 16, 2006)

Albie said:


> Here is some food for thought.
> 
> How many DVRs have to deal with both MPEG2 and MPEG4 data streams?


Quite a few can do it.



Albie said:


> The HRs and the Dish VIPs. Although I can not find any actual specifics, I believe that decoding MPEG4 video is more processor intense than decoding MPEG2 video.


It is, but usually the MPEG decoding is handed off to a chip that is dedicated to that purpose. The DVR's main processor won't be affected significantly by MPEG 2 or 4.



Albie said:


> Also I don't think there is any box out there that has to work with a more complex data delivery system than the HRs. Even the VIPs don't have to deal with the frequency stack plan that the HRs do. The HRs have to cope with a new Ka band data stream/delivery system that seems to be less fault tolerant than the more mature Ku band. While I don't think that it is the cause of all the problems I think it certainly makes life for the HRs considerably harder.


I would agree that the tuning complexities are a bit higher, but I don't see that as a huge challenge.



Albie said:


> My anecdotal experience (Yes it is only my experience so take it for whatever you feel it is worth). I was having some missed/blank recordings and instant keep/delete recordings as well as frequent signal losses due to weather. When I checked my signal strengths I was getting from low 90s (101/110/119) to low 60s (99C/99S/103C/103S) so I didn't think too much of it. When I returned to my house after Hurricane Gustav it was even worse with all signals about 10-15 pts lower. I called D* for a dish alignment and when the tech arrived he peaked the dish for me (lowest signals in the highs 80s now) and he replaced 4 compression fittings. Since then I have had no missed/blank recordings and the only time I have lost signal was during a 2+ inch/hour rain storm. remember your mileage will vary. .


Bad signal will result in lost recordings. I don't think anyone would criticize the HR2x DVRs if that's the only time it did a blank recording. Unfortunately, evidence shows us that it sometimes creates blank recordings under other conditions.



Albie said:


> My only other comment is for those who believe the new TIVO box next fall/winter (following spring/summer) is going to be problem free right out of the chute I believe they have a very large surprise ahead. The reasons...see above


I wouldn't expect it to be problem free, but I do expect it to have fewer "growing pains" than the HR20 did. Tivo has the experience of creating HD DVRs that do MPEG-4, DLB, MRV, PC transfer, etc. and has experience controlling onboard Directv tuners. Put these components together, update for the new KA tuners/SWM, and you have their new DVR.

Directv was in the position of having to engineer so much of this themselves, and chose to launch before everything was "fully cooked". I can understand why they were in this position, but it did a lot of harm to the perception of the HR2x platform.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

allenn said:


> I agree with Bushwacr there is a total lack of objectivity on the dbstalk board leading to bias and sometimes non sequitur replies. How could the moderators be objective? They are too closely tied to D*. I think reviewers on Cnet reflect accurately the current performance of the HR series of dvr's. The software programming stinks in its current state! Given enough time, I think all will improve with the HR dvr's. I think Tivo has the advantage of experienced programmers and time. Remember, they are credited with the dvr invention. I wonder why D* had to re-invent the wheel?
> 
> On a more positive note, I think the HR21 plus series is far better looking than my old HR10! Finally, the dbstalking heads may not be objective when it comes to the D* dvr's; but their insider position keeps us informed regarding: releases; software; and equipment. For that reason, I am glad they are here biased or not.


Thank you for your salient commentary and oddly interesting assessment. I only wish I could fit it all on a t-shirt


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

allenn said:


> I agree with Bushwacr there is a total lack of objectivity on the dbstalk board leading to bias and sometimes non sequitur replies. How could the moderators be objective? They are too closely tied to D*. I think reviewers on Cnet reflect accurately the current performance of the HR series of dvr's. The software programming stinks in its current state! Given enough time, I think all will improve with the HR dvr's. I think Tivo has the advantage of experienced programmers and time. Remember, they are credited with the dvr invention. I wonder why D* had to re-invent the wheel?
> 
> On a more positive note, I think the HR21 plus series is far better looking than my old HR10! Finally, the dbstalking heads may not be objective when it comes to the D* dvr's; but their insider position keeps us informed regarding: releases; software; and equipment. For that reason, I am glad they are here biased or not.


Check your facts, Replay is the inventor of DVR technology dating from 1997. Irrelevant anyway as TIVO became the generic name. Who cares..

I used to be a big follower of CNET for reviews of products, but I don't think they even have a lab anymore. When was the last time you saw a round up review of say, wireless routers?

I hope those of you who miss your TIVO technology get a box from DirecTV soon if for no other reason than not having to listen to anything about it anymore.

I am a DirecTV customer, I have 2 HD DVR's, an HR20-700 and an HR23-700. They are hooked to a single wire dish. They do their job day in and day out, recording 60+ hours of recording each and every week. No missed recordings, no network problems, no audio issues, they just work.

Now given they don't have a pretty TIVO interface and they don't make that funny little TIVO beep, so what.

But set all that aside for the moment. I have a brother who is the antithesis of me. He is, to put it mildly "technologically challenged". He calls me to plug in the television.

He is a DirecTV customer. He has an HR21 series DVR. He and my sister inlaw both work and they record a lot of TV every week. He is a sports fanatic and records a lot of events.

I talked him into DirecTV. If it wasn't working he would only do one thing... call me and expect me to deal with it.

He never has. I asked him once how he liked it... he responded with "it works fine, doesn't give me any problems".
I have been at his home and watched TV there.. it works.

He is building a bar/rec room on the back of his house and he called me for a flat panel recommendation. He also asked about another HD unit.

He is not now, nor has he ever been a participant in the Cutting Edge program.

He is actually what a typical non geek DirecTV customer... and he is happy, the equipment works, he watches TV live and he watches what he records. That's all he cares about. End of story.


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

paulman182 said:


> In over two years my units have missed a total of one recording.
> 
> I have never seen an explanation of how software can be causing so many people so many problems, and yet so many of us have had so few problems, all running the same software.


It can happen with multi-threaded real time software. Some patterns of use will never cause a problem. Some may always cause a problem. Some only cause a problem if you do a particular action during a window of vulnerability.

You could have 5 people using the same software to do the same thing, with 4 never seeing a problem. The 5th is out of luck.


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

If there arent and havent been any software problems, why are the release notes always full of bug fixes, and the ever intriguing "under the hood fixes"?

One of my in-laws has a computer thats over 10 years old with windows 95. Original windows 95, never had a single patch applied. She's never, ever had a crash nor does she ever recall having any problems whatsoever with it.

But then again, its never been connected to the internet and about all she uses on it is the notepad app to write letters and store recipes.

Same product, different usage models, different results.

We all may have different channel lineups, different HR models, some may have external disk drives of varying type and quality, may be using different remote controls, IR vs RF, some more series links than others, some may add and remove SL's more often, some may access the list through the menu while others do it through the list button, some might delete series links from the prioritizer while others do it through some other menu. We all also have very different expectations.

For example, I've had conversations with people about how one car maker puts out more reliable products than another and had another person say "I've never had any trouble with xyz cars". But when you probe on it, they've fixed this and that, had to have things adjusted, and learned to live with some quirks. So the car met their expectations because its behaved more or less like all the other xyz cars they've owned.

Within that realm of expectations, it performs very well and exhibits no problems.

My experience has been slow UI, plenty of missed shows, periodic hangs/crashes and plenty of other minor glitches. Some of these issues have improved with newer s/w release, some got better when I cut back to < 40 series links, and a few glitches improved somewhat when I removed an IR source from the living room.

Further, the product fails to follow my instructions when I explicitly tell it to do or not do certain things. Good examples are deleting shows when I've told it "save until I delete" and parental controls. It fails to successfully return accurate results from searches and autorecords on "channels I get" by giving me results on channels I dont get. The remote control is terrible, buttons are too small and too close together.

4-5 months ago I'd have given it a 4 or a 5 on a scale of 1-10 and not recommended the product for anyone unless they had very limited expectations. In todays iteration, I'd give it a 7-7.5 and recommend it only for people who wanted directv and high def and were willing to live with some glitches, or for people upgrading from a directv receiver wishing to have DVR capabilities.

Lets look at my expectations. I had a few occasional glitches with my directivo's that were largely caused by guide data related matters. Directv told me that these issues were out of their hands, since Tivo was responsible for the s/w. Nothing they could do. But...if I upgraded to their receivers, they controlled everything, these problems wouldnt exist, AND i'd get HD. On looking into this forum and what I could read on the first page, it seemed that the bugs had been worked out of the HR series, I could expect good reliability, problems were mostly installation related, issues were outliers, and it would be as good as what I'd been using, with more features and fewer problems, although there would be a bit of a learning curve to adjust.

The reality has been a little bit different. The expectations werent met. When expectations are set too high and then not achieved, disappointment and frustration are the results.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

LarryFlowers said:


> Check your facts, Replay is the inventor of DVR technology dating from 1997. Irrelevant anyway as TIVO became the generic name. Who cares..


The fact is the Wright Brothers did not invent the airplane; Thomas Edison did not invent the light bulb; and Alexander Bell did not invent the telephone. It seems they are credited with the inventions, facts or no facts. But this was not my point regarding Tivo. In case you missed it, my point was Tivo has had more experience with developing an OS system and apps that work. D* decided to re-invent the wheel so they could have higher earnings potential and the CEO could take home more $$$'s.

Yugos were automobiles that may get you to your destination (for that matter so did horses and buggies), but I prefer something more reliable now. I look forward to D* Tivo. Thank you very much.

One final comment regarding Cnet: it is part of the ZDNet family and CBS interactive. I found the following on their website: "Through *CNET Labs*-based testing, hands-on use, user opinions, and videos, CNET Reviews provides trusted and unbiased reviews that showcase product quality, features, and value. With more than 100 years of editorial expertise, the CNET Reviews team is dedicated to providing the most accurate, timely, and engaging information available about the hottest tech products on the market. Read more about our commitment in our User Promise.

We look at thousands of products each year--anything related to digital technology. Review categories include the following (complete list below):

Hottest gadgets, such as MP3 players, mobile phones, HDTVs, digital cameras, and home audio systems 
Latest in automotive technology, such as GPS and Bluetooth 
Ultimate player's source for games, gear, and hardware reviews 
The technology that brings it all together such as desktop computers, software, networking devices, and security products.

We bring objectivity to our evaluations through testing in the *CNET Labs*. You can read about how we test and, if you are a vendor, how to submit your product for review."

Half full or half empty? Opinions; everyone has one. Whose to say which are correct?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Well I know during College bowl season, and during March Madness. Everybody comes over to my house to watch the big games. This includes 5 devote D* users.( I have the smallest TV, even with a 46" plasma)
Between DLB, for game overlap, as everything runs long, or being able to swap between to close games at the end. PiP just to make sure we aren't missing anything and a SLO-MO that works outstandingly. Features that are missing, or have had numerous issues for lots of people. I understand Devote users standing by thier units. My hats off to the devote users who don't just blindly defend, but acknowleged issues, show work arounds, or talk about how things are moving forward. 

Maybe the lower CNET rating is justified while D*continues moving forward, with problem resolving. CIG issues is just wrong, was reading about that in the "whats really important" forum as a User that would really piss me off, more than missed recording, and would push me over the edge, that I missed something because some marketing fool, wants me to record something on a channel I don't get.
HR2x isn't a beta release machine anymore, but it really needs to shine harder over the others to make up for it. Doesn't help with legions of users still complaining about, features not working right and D* releasing, multiple firmware to resolve a single issue and not resolving it, doesn't help.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

t_h said:


> If there arent and havent been any software problems, why are the release notes always full of bug fixes, and the ever intriguing "under the hood fixes"?
> 
> One of my in-laws has a computer thats over 10 years old with windows 95. Original windows 95, never had a single patch applied. She's never, ever had a crash nor does she ever recall having any problems whatsoever with it.
> 
> ...


Well said. 
I think you hit it on the head with the expectations aspect. Everyone's are different. Couple that with the useage type issues and it could go along way explaining why it 'works' for one person and not the other.
But no matter now, as this thread has turned into a pi$$ing match between "T" and "D".


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

t_h said:


> 4-5 months ago I'd have given it a 4 or a 5 on a scale of 1-10 and not recommended the product for anyone unless they had very limited expectations. In todays iteration, I'd give it a 7-7.5 and recommend it only for people who wanted directv and high def and were willing to live with some glitches, or for people upgrading from a directv receiver wishing to have DVR capabilities.
> 
> The reality has been a little bit different. The expectations werent met. When expectations are set too high and then not achieved, disappointment and frustration are the results.


Well its kind of funny to say that you will give it a 7.5, as long as you can live with the glitch's.
It would be harder for somebody trying to be impartal, to give it that high of a rating, glitch's and missing features would have to drop the overall rating. Granted maybe with the announcement of a now DirectTivo system, D* has decided to limp along so it can throw in the towel on fixes, afterwards.


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

Drewg5 said:


> I can see why people don't like the D* DVR line. Not that they are poorly constructed, but some of the basics need attention.


I'd have to differ with you on that statement. If they were not poorly constructed, I wouldn't have sent 5 dead ones back to D* in less than 16 months and I wouldn't need chill pads to keep them from overheating, especially since they have lots of room for air circulation. Notice that I'm not touching the software here. Just the construction of the hardware.

Meanwhile, I have four D* DVRs retired and sitting in the basement that were in service for many years without a hardware failure or overheating (let's not mention who made those, however :hurah: ) Those are well constructed set top boxes.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

ChrisMinCT said:


> Meanwhile, I have four D* DVRs retired and sitting in the basement that were in service for many years without a hardware failure or overheating (let's not mention who made those, however :hurah: ) Those are well constructed set top boxes.


Of course I had several of *those* DVRs and had 2 of them with crashed hard drives (losing whole seasons of shows in the process) and another with constant lock up problems which ended up being a heat issue. I might go so far to say they were poorly constructed. Amazing how people who had "perfect" DVRs seem to think it was that way for everyone and *always* ignore those that have problems. Hmmmmmmmmm......


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

ChrisMinCT said:


> I'd have to differ with you on that statement. If they were not poorly constructed, I wouldn't have sent 5 dead ones back to D* in less than 16 months and I wouldn't need chill pads to keep them from overheating, especially since they have lots of room for air circulation. Notice that I'm not touching the software here. Just the construction of the hardware.
> 
> Meanwhile, I have four D* DVRs retired and sitting in the basement that were in service for many years without a hardware failure or overheating (let's not mention who made those, however :hurah: ) Those are well constructed set top boxes.


This touches on what may be an underlying problem.
Made in America, made in Mexico, made in Korea, made in China.
In the new world economy, everything is made by the lowest bidder.
Your "chill pads" sound like the H20-600 [Korean].
Tivos seem to have been made [assembled] in the same plant in Mexico that the "early" HR20s were. We've even found a Tivo inspection tag inside an HR20 to support this.
"Oh Mexico is too expensive" so off to China. Shortcuts in every step of the processes. Little to no testing before shipping.
Should Tivo follow this same path, it wouldn't matter "a hill of beans" if they had the best software/development in the world, if the manufactured product wasn't "tested" to ensure that each had the quality intended.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'd like to get back onto this topic, and not onto the topic of "the DVR that must not show its face."


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Of course I had several of *those* DVRs and had 2 of them with crashed hard drives (losing whole seasons of shows in the process) and another with constant lock up problems which ended up being a heat issue. I might go so far to say they were poorly constructed. Amazing how people who had "perfect" DVRs seem to think it was that way for everyone and *always* ignore those that have problems. Hmmmmmmmmm......


Seems to work both ways in this little forum.
Amazing how people who had "perfect" DVRs seem to think it was that way for everyone and *always* ignore those that have problems, and those that *now *have a "perfect" Dvr, seem to ignore all those that have a problem *now*.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

GrumpyBear said:


> Seems to work both ways in this little forum.
> Amazing how people who had "perfect" DVRs seem to think it was that way for everyone and *always* ignore those that have problems, and those that *now *have a "perfect" Dvr, seem to ignore all those that have a problem *now*.


I didn't get the post count I have by "ignoring all those that have a problem".


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Not at all. Got my first Tivo back in 2000, had several over the years, still have one going. What I didn't do was drink the coolaid. I'll use whatever DVR works, don't care what the UI is.
> 
> Was simply pointing out the truth and the obvious, with a little tongue in cheek. Seriously, there was in the past a concerted effort by Tivo zealots to make DirecTV look bad. Again, it's all documented on the various forums and easy enough to find. And again, certainly many bad reviews are from real users with real problems. But we always must remember the underbelly of the Internet out there.


Heh heh, c'mon now, we all know you like koolaid, you just like a different flavor. :lol:


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

I was just saying BonScott, hit the nail on the head with that post, and it works both ways. Users here should focus on the problems and lack of features, or whats added features have been added, instead of bashing. 
You just have to look a the recent Reviews of Tivo's, to see that they have issues as well, granted they are also losing marketshare.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Exactly, works both ways. There are people that have problems with any platform, and people that don't have problems. The *real* problem is people on either side that have their head in the sand.

I had many problems with various Tivo's but I also know that most did not. While I also have had very little problems with the HR2x's I have, I also know that some have had problems. I'm also not naive and know that the majority of either platform do not have problems.

Like VOS, I don't have the post count I have by ignoring those with problems. And 99% of people on this forum, even the biggest D* cheerleaders, all admit that there were big problems with the HR2x at first and that some people still do have problems. The thing that ruffles feathers is when you get someone that goes off the handle and says "My Tivo was perfect and therefore everything that DirecTV does sucks" while sticking their head in the sand and ignoring the many that did and still do have problems with their Tivo's. It's that "I've been wronged by DirecTV and they hate puppies"attitude that grinds on people here. Fine, your Tivo was perfect, but it wasn't for everyone. Just like the HR2x is perfect for some, but not for others.

Let's just move on with reality. Please.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Exactly, works both ways. There are people that have problems with any platform, and people that don't have problems. The *real* problem is people on either side that have their head in the sand.
> 
> I had many problems with various Tivo's but I also know that most did not. While I also have had very little problems with the HR2x's I have, I also know that some have had problems. I'm also not naive and know that the majority of either platform do not have problems.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Just make sure you understand, that it was GENERAL comment, not a comment directed at anybody.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

:scratchin .. what were we talking about again ..


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Supposedly the idea of this theard was rather or not the Cnet review was accurate/justified or not?


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Thank you for your salient commentary and oddly interesting assessment. I only wish I could fit it all on a t-shirt


You are welcome! And thanks again for the D* information and running this forum.
Send me a T-shirt too!


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Cnet like dbstalk is a place to voice an opinion. I think it is healthy to do so.

I wonder how many in this forum would keep an automobile, toaster, TV, radio, or anything that has as many issues as the HR series of DVR's? My guess is none. I have been with D* since October, 1994. I have owned about every model of D* equipment starting with two receivers costing $1500. I have had an RCA Dolby receiver and two Hughes dvr's with Tivo. You might say I like D*, but I do not like the software unreliability of the HR dvr's. I hope things get fixed soon, because we have AT&T U-verse in the neighborhood; my wife is retired; and she is tired of rebooting the two HR21-700's. Like our President elect, she wants change.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

allenn said:


> I think Tivo has the advantage of experienced programmers and time. Remember, they are credited with the dvr invention. I wonder why D* had to re-invent the wheel?


Just want to point out... Tivo didn't invent the DVR.. They where one of two companies that came out with a DVR and took it mainstream before anyone else...

ReplayTV was first to the market, and frankly, at any given moment when the two were truly competing against each other, ReplayTV was always ahead and more advanced than Tivo... But Tivo had the money behind it to market itself.... unfortunately...


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> Just want to point out... Tivo didn't invent the DVR.. They where one of two companies that came out with a DVR and took it mainstream before anyone else...
> 
> ReplayTV was first to the market, and frankly, at any given moment when the two were truly competing against each other, ReplayTV was always ahead and more advanced than Tivo... But Tivo had the money behind it to market itself.... unfortunately...


I guess you missed my reply at the following link: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1892239&postcount=119. Check it out.

If I was a gambler, I would bet Tivo hired some of Replay's programmers. Advantage Tivo. Thanks for you opinion.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

dbronstein said:


> That's because the universal posting by someone having a problem isn't "my DVR doesn't work right", it's "these DVRs are total crap, DirecTV is completely incompetent and clueless, my Tivo was perfect" and so on.


The part that completely confounds me is why the apologists consistently bring up the obsolete DirecTiVo units in discussions about the HR2x; insisting that anyone who doesn't like the HR2x must obviously be a TiVo zealot.

There are more than a handful of people who don't like the HR2x that have never used a TiVo (or any other DVR for that matter).


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

harsh said:


> The part that completely confounds me is why the apologists consistently bring up the obsolete DirecTiVo units in discussions about the HR2x; insisting that anyone who doesn't like the HR2x must obviously be a TiVo zealot.
> 
> There are more than a handful of people who don't like the HR2x that have never used a TiVo (or any other DVR for that matter).


Can you point me to them, and what DVRs they have experience with in the past? I'd like to see what they are comparing the HRs to... I'll also bet that half of them are unhappy because it doesn't work just like their last units in terms of the gui... not if it records or not... People often don't like change if they aren't techy people..


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

allenn said:


> I guess you missed my reply at the following link: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1892239&postcount=119. Check it out.
> 
> If I was a gambler, I would bet Tivo hired some of Replay's programmers. Advantage Tivo. Thanks for you opinion.


I was simply stating fact... Not opinion... If you want my opinion, Replaytv is the best DVR ever made, period. I don't know anyone who has used one and another dvr of any kind and didnt like the replay best...

I highly doubt many programs from Replaytv went to Tivo, because they continued making products and putting out software... And tivo and replay can never sue each other over patents....

Oh, and by the way... Directv bought Replaytv, and now the replaytv programmers work for Directv... so actually, advantage Directv....

Thanks for your opinions too....


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Not quite true...there were plenty of people in this forum in February of 2007 reporting what a great unit it was and how stable and solid it had become.



bonscott87 said:


> Exactly, works both ways. There are people that have problems with any platform, and people that don't have problems. The *real* problem is people on either side that have their head in the sand.
> 
> I had many problems with various Tivo's but I also know that most did not. While I also have had very little problems with the HR2x's I have, I also know that some have had problems. I'm also not naive and know that the majority of either platform do not have problems.
> 
> ...


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Ken S said:


> Not quite true...there were plenty of people in this forum in February of 2007 reporting what a great unit it was and how stable and solid it had become.


Yep, and some of them are posting in this thread.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> Can you point me to them, and what DVRs they have experience with in the past?


There are a few in this thread.


> I'd like to see what they are comparing the HRs to...


Some have only the unrealistic expectations fostered by the apologists. They are assured that the chances that they will have any disappointments are vanishingly small if their install is correct and they constantly monitor their priority list.


> I'll also bet that half of them are unhappy because it doesn't work just like their last units in terms of the gui... not if it records or not... People often don't like change if they aren't techy people..


Not liking the interface is a valid basis for an opinion.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> Directv bought Replaytv, and now the replaytv programmers work for Directv... so actually, advantage Directv....


When DIRECTV bought ReplayTV, ReplayTV was struggling with (or had finally stuck a fork in) a software product that ran under Windows. It is likely that many (if not all) of the programmers of yore had moved on. If you go to the ReplayTV website today, it is mostly an ad for DIRECTV.

I think it reasonable to assume that DIRECTV was interested in the technology portfolio, not the rank and file.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I feel I must respond because I "was there" in February 2007. Ken was, and Harsh was too. 

I reported plenty of issues back then, but I was happy with the DVR. In that case it was a matter of meeting expectations. I was not expecting a mature unit because I understood the added complexity that DIRECTV had put into this series. I also appreciated the pace of improvement and the degree of user input. 

Then again, as my old friend Earl might say, Karma is a funny thing. Back then I was a regular user and yet I didn't have nearly the degree of issues that some people did. Neither did my friends tibber (Tom Robertson) brott (Doug Brott) or BMoreRavens (Michael D'Angelo), all of whom were regular users too. We all worked to make it better for others, not really for ourselves. In the process, the DVR got better for everyone. 

It's hard to see that things have improved immeasurably for a vast majority of people since then if you're one of those who still have problems. It's hard to empathize and hard to listen to the litany of those who are biased toward their own positive experiences. 

For those people who still have issues, I'm still here to help. So are the other moderators, and for that matter 95% of the members here.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Ken S said:


> Not quite true...there were plenty of people in this forum in February of 2007 reporting what a great unit it was and how stable and solid it had become.


So are you saying that there weren't people that didn't have problems? I was here back then. In fact I got my HR20 the week it was released in September 2006. I have *never* lost a recording and only had one blank recording from the day I got it. It has also been rock solid with no stability issues other then the odd bad national release that effected everyone. To me it was stable and solid on day 1.

Thus overall my receivers have been rock solid stable, no problems, never a lost recording, etc. So to me they are near darn bulletproof. 9 out of 10. 4.5 out of 5 in my book.

But again I know that there *were* lots of problems with the HR20 and freely admit that and freely tried to help those that had problems. But that doesn't change the fact that I have had near a perfect experience in the past 2 and a half years and I resent the fact that somehow I didn't.

But see unlike many others, I can step back and see the reality and the reality is that some people have problems, some don't. No platform is perfect or bug free. Just like all the problems that I had on various Tivo's, I do know that I was the exception rather then the rule. And I don't go around slamming Tivo for being crap because I know it's not the case in general, just was for me. But hey, if we were all level headed about these things we wouldn't have 50+ page threads arguing about stupid stuff. :lol:


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

harsh said:


> The part that completely confounds me is why the apologists consistently bring up the obsolete DirecTiVo units in discussions about the HR2x; insisting that anyone who doesn't like the HR2x must obviously be a TiVo zealot.


Perhaps you should reread the many posts where it's people bringing up the Tivo as the most perfect DVR ever created on the planet and that we must bow down to it.  So if it's brought up then let's discuss it. It wasn't perfect. It had a lot of problems. And when I talk about Tivo, I talk about *all* the Tivo's including the stand alones which also had plenty of problems and still do to this day. One only needs to visit the Tivo forum to see that. BUT there are those that had a great experience with Tivo, as many do, and thus it becomes perfect and they just want to ignore the problems that there are/were. Refer to my post above. And of course the same happens with the HR20. If people can't be objective and put their head in the sand which then causes these dozens page threads.


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'd like to get back onto this topic, and not onto the topic of "the DVR that must not show its face."


Sorry Stuart, but I'm going to have to complain about this post.

The topic is whether or not the HR series deserved the CNET rating and I don't think we can objectively discuss this without a basis for comparison.

Ie HR series vs TIVO vs VIP series vs Replaytv vs cabletivo vs ultimatetv.

I know you don't like to have TIVO discussions in the HR forum but I think it is on topic in this thread.

I will agree we need to keep the bashing/praise to a minimum and at least try to keep the comparison objective.

Kick me if you want for questioning moderation


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Here's what I found when I went to CNet.It ain't pretty.:eek2:

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...-6474_7-32896646.html?tag=contentBody;compare

Here's another:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10031392-1.html?tag=rtcol;relnews


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Wow what can anyone say to that statement!
I got my HR20 in July or Aug 2007 and that initial firmware use to reboot and crap out almost daily I still have the same hardware today and with the current firmware it goes for at least a month between reboots.

I say this Jokingly bonscott, Are you sure you had the unit plugged in during 2006 and 2007 :lol:



bonscott87 said:


> So are you saying that there weren't people that didn't have problems? I was here back then. In fact I got my HR20 the week it was released in September 2006. I have *never* lost a recording and only had one blank recording from the day I got it. It has also been rock solid with no stability issues other then the odd bad national release that effected everyone. To me it was stable and solid on day 1.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

You are 100% correct! Most people would never put up with equipment that gave this many problems BUT.... the HRxx is just one part of the equation, most of us realize that DIRECTV programming is Top Notch and one of the Best systems on the planet. I liken DIRECTV programming services to Apple Computers in that they take pride in making a system that is reliable well built and at the cutting edge of technology. I can't think of a single program provider I would rather have than DIRECTV. Unfortunately that part gets little praise because the tool needed to access all the great signals is less than perfect and the reason for that is the part of the company that makes the receivers is run more like Microsoft in that they tend to just throw stuff out and see what works. Luckily for most of us they are just about at the Windows XP stage so life is a lot better



allenn said:


> Cnet like dbstalk is a place to voice an opinion. I think it is healthy to do so.
> 
> I wonder how many in this forum would keep an automobile, toaster, TV, radio, or anything that has as many issues as the HR series of DVR's? My guess is none.
> -
> ...


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Wow what can anyone say to that statement!
> I got my HR20 in July or Aug 2007 and that initial firmware use to reboot and crap out almost daily I still have the same hardware today and with the current firmware it goes for at least a month between reboots.
> 
> I say this Jokingly bonscott, Are you sure you had the unit plugged in during 2006 and 2007 :lol:


I can back him up.. Maybe Michigan is a good environment for Directv :grin:


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

houskamp said:


> I can back him up.. Maybe Michigan is a good environment for Directv :grin:


Could be! I also have all self installed dish, high quality cables self installed and all self installed receivers. Maybe that helps?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Could be! I also have all self installed dish, high quality cables self installed and all self installed receivers. Maybe that helps?


It's a start. :lol:

I'm currently "fighting" with DirecTV due to my local HD uplink issues. Just got off the phone with the office of the president. DirecTV does know about the problem, and where it is, but for "the average" customer, "this darn DVR is screwing up again", as they'd have no idea that it wasn't the DVR, but the signal getting to the SAT.
Is it a perfect DVR? no, but for many it works fine, and for others, any problem anywhere from the programing source to their TV, will always be "this damn DVR".


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Could be! I also have all self installed dish, high quality cables self installed and all self installed receivers. Maybe that helps?


Considering D* policy is no self-installs for HD, you're certainly not in the mainstream on that.

I self installed by SD stuff 10 years ago and did it the way I wanted. Given the apparent sensitivity of the HR2x to install quality, I'd rather do it myself than take a chance on "Frick and Frack" (a friend's quote on his HR2x installers) doing the install. But I'm reluctant to violate D* policy for fear I'd ever have a problem with a HR2x and they say, "must be your install. Too bad."


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

RCY said:
 

> Considering D* policy is no self-installs for HD, you're certainly not in the mainstream on that.
> 
> I self installed by SD stuff 10 years ago and did it the way I wanted. Given the apparent sensitivity of the HR2x to install quality, I'd rather do it myself than take a chance on "Frick and Frack" (a friend's quote on his HR2x installers) doing the install. But I'm reluctant to violate D* policy for fear I'd ever have a problem with a HR2x and they say, "must be your install. Too bad."


To clarify, it's not DirecTV policy of no self-installs, they just don't typically allow self installs if you get equipment from them, in particular the free upgrades. You are certainly free to buy your own stuff and install it. You buy an HR21 from Best Buy it's still leased and they will replace if bad. If you have the protection plan then all your stuff is covered, no matter who installed it. In fact the CEO has said they want to try to do more self installs of receivers to reduce the cost of a service call when it's really not needed.

And before someone jumps on me as being rare, yes, I am. I was just responding to the question of how I could have had very few problems. The facts are I haven't and a look at my 7000+ posts will see that. 

But in the end, even if the cause of problems are bad installs, it's still DirecTV's fault and a customer doesn't care what the problem is, just that they have one. And you don't find reviews on CNet for the dish or the cables, you find them for the receivers. So a bad review will go to the receiver, even if the receiver is just fine and not the cause.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RCY said:


> Considering D* policy is no self-installs for HD, you're certainly not in the mainstream on that.
> 
> I self installed by SD stuff 10 years ago and did it the way I wanted. Given the apparent sensitivity of the HR2x to install quality, I'd rather do it myself than take a chance on "Frick and Frack" (a friend's quote on his HR2x installers) doing the install. But I'm reluctant to violate D* policy for fear I'd ever have a problem with a HR2x and they say, "must be your install. Too bad."


"plan B": do the install yourself and then have "Frick or Frack" come out an sign off on it.
I've never had "much luck" with either of them, and done it myself. I have yet to find anybody come out and "not like" my install.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> And before someone jumps on me as being rare, yes, I am.


"Rare?"!rolling 
That wasn't the first word that came to mind, [strange, weird, I can think of many, but rare wasn't one of them] :whatdidid
:goodjob:


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> To clarify, it's not DirecTV policy of no self-installs, they just don't typically allow self installs if you get equipment from them, in particular the free upgrades. You are certainly free to buy your own stuff and install it. You buy an HR21 from Best Buy it's still leased and they will replace if bad. If you have the protection plan then all your stuff is covered, no matter who installed it. In fact the CEO has said they want to try to do more self installs of receivers to reduce the cost of a service call when it's really not needed.


Well, I'd certainly hope that I could get a better deal than the ~199 typical cost for a HR2x at BB or Costco. I haven't had a committment in years now and should be a 3 heart+ kind of customer. So I guess I want my self-install and discount too. 



bonscott87 said:


> And before someone jumps on me as being rare, yes, I am. I was just responding to the question of how I could have had very few problems. The facts are I haven't and a look at my 7000+ posts will see that.


No problem with that. I'd rather do it myself too.



bonscott87 said:


> But in the end, even if the cause of problems are bad installs, it's still DirecTV's fault and a customer doesn't care what the problem is, just that they have one. And you don't find reviews on CNet for the dish or the cables, you find them for the receivers. So a bad review will go to the receiver, even if the receiver is just fine and not the cause.


This is certainly true. And as you said, its D*'s responsibility in the end for the system.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> So are you saying that there weren't people that didn't have problems? I was here back then. In fact I got my HR20 the week it was released in September 2006. I have *never* lost a recording and only had one blank recording from the day I got it. It has also been rock solid with no stability issues other then the odd bad national release that effected everyone. To me it was stable and solid on day 1.
> 
> Thus overall my receivers have been rock solid stable, no problems, never a lost recording, etc. So to me they are near darn bulletproof. 9 out of 10. 4.5 out of 5 in my book.
> 
> ...


No, I'm reporting there was a group of people that vehemently disagreed with any negative reports on the HR20 back then. They painted a device that you have admitted was buggy as being stable and they attacked in public and in private messages anyone who disagreed.

I don't disagree that some people won't have problems with even the buggiest piece of hardware or software. There are a number of reasons that can happen including amount of use, type of use, number of reboots (i.e. doing CEs every week), and of course luck. There's also another biggie, perception...some people don't perceive things that happen as being problems.

Oh, and at no time is anyone talking about perfection...that's a word that is thrown out a lot around here "nothing is perfect..." That's another way of trying to diminish the problems of others. No one is suggesting the HR2x has to be perfect...that's an impossibility.

For the record, I'm not accusing you of telling anything other than the truth. Unfortunately, I can't say others in this forum have thought the same of me.

Finally, no one seems to remember a previous thread on the CNet ratings when a group from here were trying to get others to go there and post positive reviews.


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## studdad (Aug 11, 2008)

Grentz said:


> My problem I guess more is the bias of the editor reviews. They constantly give good reviews to those companies that advertise with them and tend to take away from those that dont even if the product is better.
> 
> Canon and Sony were an example of this for awhile. Sony got great reviews always (and advertised with CNet) while Canon got lower marks on products that everywhere else were rated higher than the Sony equivalents CNet marked higher.


Bingo. I figured this out early on and stopped using cnet reviews as a credible source. Although I have been very disappointed in the recent update (029b) I understand that the problem is not the hardware, but the software, so I would have to give the hardware portion of the unit high marks.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Jhon69 said:


> Here's what I found when I went to CNet.It ain't pretty.:eek2:
> 
> http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...-6474_7-32896646.html?tag=contentBody;compare
> 
> ...


I like the one review:

Pro: Didn't catch on fire when I plugged it in.

That about summed up my experience with the HR20 as well.

Thank God Tivo is coming back. Or else I'd be switching to FIOS TV the moment it got here.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> I like the one review:
> 
> *Pro: Didn't catch on fire when I plugged it in.*
> 
> ...


I didn't write that, but I raise my glass to the man who did. I get half of my HD programming OTA already. My HR21-100 will be leaving soon.


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

Ken S said:


> For the record, I'm not accusing you of telling anything other than the truth.


There are many truths and they're all relative. Most people pick one that works for them.

Heres the rub. Overly enthusiastic truths create expectations in new customers who then discover that they experience a different truth. Then they come back to the forum mad about the delta between their expected experience vs actual. The truthiness of their experience wasnt truthy enough.

When the new users truth doesnt match the truthiness level of others on the forum and complain about it, that makes them equally upset.

The real truth is that a lot of factors are getting combined and consolidated to deliver a single product/service to the customer. The service provider CAN improve the quality and consistency of that by working with the sources and doing massaging within the system.

What can really set one product/service offering from another is its resilience to unexpected circumstances and less than ideal conditions.

As a comparator, I'm currently using high speed internet and have a series 1 tivo attached to cable tv. The wire, and I am not making this up, runs out of the side of the house, down a downspout and into the french drain system that routes water (and my cable) down to the bottom front of the property where it emerges and the cable gets connected to the cable company's junction box. I guess someone didnt want to trench a new conduit 20 years ago.

Wire is 20 years old. What I can see of it has cracks in it every few feet. From what I can see all the external and internal house wiring is 20 years old, with the original connectors, splitters, etc.

Yet on this old substandard wire, i'm running 8Mbs/2Mbs high speed internet and 40 channels of cable television with really no problems. The series 1 tivo was plugged in more than a year and a half ago and has reliably recorded a bunch of kids shows without ever rebooting or needing a restart to clear a problem. As far as I can tell, its never missed a show or blanked a recording.

Yet it seems that a somewhat flaky component, connector, cable or wire, slightly misaligned dish or errant splat of guide data will make an HR miss shows, blank them out, freeze, reboot and do all sorts of other bad behavior.

Yet through all of this, with far more sophisticated (and recent) hardware and software, the box cant detect and warn about these problems and/or work around them or even persist through them. The resilience and tolerance seem pretty low.

Certainly the technology directv relies on is far more complex than what cable television uses, and complexity increases the chances of problems.

But directv chose the technology to employ as part of their competitive strategy. Its up to them to overcome any issues with that more complex technology so that the customer experienced reliability is at least ordinary when compared to similar competitive offerings.

When its not, you get bad reviews.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

t_h said:


> There are many truths and they're all relative. Most people pick one that works for them.


If I understand your post: you're comparing SD to HD and "wired to wireless", correct?
While being "the customer" would be the same, not much else seems to be.
New encoding, new SATs using new up & down link frequencies, new feeds from local stations.
I do understand the customer's view "if I poke button x and it doesn't work, I don't care why, just fix it".
In the "Real world" though, there are so many "new things", comparison to using a 20 year old cable seems kind of "un/misinformed" [to me] as there is little "new" technology.

[My gripe] If you're going to compare "x to y", to it on the "same field/court", as it will be a much more truthful/realistic comparison.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> I like the one review:
> 
> Pro: Didn't catch on fire when I plugged it in.
> 
> ...


I had a Sears TV that DID catch on fire when I plugged it in. :eek2:


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> If I understand your post


You didnt.

But it was long and not particularly to the point.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> If I understand your post: you're comparing SD to HD and "wired to wireless", correct?
> While being "the customer" would be the same, not much else seems to be.
> New encoding, new SATs using new up & down link frequencies, new feeds from local stations.
> I do understand the customer's view "if I poke button x and it doesn't work, I don't care why, just fix it".
> ...


Sigh. That "same court" argument is wrong. In the real world, when people pay more for a newer, more advanced system, they expect it to work as good if not better than the previous systems.

I turned in my HR20 and hooked my Series 1 Tivo back up to my old SD receivers. Suddenly, I could reliably record programs again. What's wrong with this picture?

Quick, guess which device is consistently better at performing caller ID -- the $30 phone I bought at Wal-Mart or the $200 + $10/month DVR? Here's a hint -- search this forum for "caller ID not working".


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Sigh. That "same court" argument is wrong. In the real world, when people pay more for a newer, more advanced system, they expect it to work as good if not better than the previous systems.
> 
> I turned in my HR20 and hooked my Series 1 Tivo back up to my old SD receivers. Suddenly, I could reliably record programs again. What's wrong with this picture?
> 
> Quick, guess which device is consistently better at performing caller ID -- the $30 phone I bought at Wal-Mart or the $200 + $10/month DVR? Here's a hint -- search this forum for "caller ID not working".


My first response would be: "I do understand the customer's view "if I poke button x and it doesn't work, I don't care why, just fix it"." [from my post]
My second is "did you get your DVR for caller ID, or to be a DVR"?
My third goes back to comparing a VCR to a DVR, since yes they both do the same thing, but the technology used is completely different.

[For me] I don't care about caller ID, and my three HR2xs haven't missed a recording in over 18 months. [yes back when I got my first it would simply not record a show with no rhyme or reason as to why]
Comparing SD [a 50+ year old system] to HD [which is still having teething problems starting at the broadcast station] seems to have only "viewing programs" in common.
"Apples & Oranges"
In a year or so, "apples to apples" will be here with the DirecTV Tivo, and not until then will there be a means for a valid comparison. Give each the same input, and then compare how each responds.
Tivo may make a better product, but so far few [one poster has and I give them credit] have been able to support a true 'apples to apples" comparison.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

I've always found that when someone has something they truly are satisfied with - they don't need to constantly tell everyone how great their experience is. If there are those that really really like, and are satisfied with what they have, they normally are content to let others go their own way.

But here, there is a deep seated resentment against Tivo that lends itslelf to actually lashing out in a mean spirited way if one thinks their recorder has been slanted. Here it comes. . .

It doesn't all add up - it's just a box.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Based on the logic in this thread, it would be unfair to compare different makes of anything. Also, if an option does not work, it is ok as long as it does something. On that note, D* should stop all development and future releases for the Hr series of dvr's; because they record sometimes. If their feature set does not work, all is well in the world. 

I preferred my Hr10 to the current Hr series. Unfortunately, I like HD programming ; so what choice do I have but to accept the problems that currently exist?


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Quick, guess which device is consistently better at performing caller ID -- the $30 phone I bought at Wal-Mart or the $200 + $10/month DVR? Here's a hint -- search this forum for "caller ID not working".


The phone is a lot better at making calls, too, but it stinks at recording TV.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

t_h said:


> Wire is 20 years old. What I can see of it has cracks in it every few feet. From what I can see all the external and internal house wiring is 20 years old, with the original connectors, splitters, etc.
> 
> Yet on this old substandard wire, i'm running 8Mbs/2Mbs high speed internet and 40 channels of cable television with really no problems. The series 1 tivo was plugged in more than a year and a half ago and has reliably recorded a bunch of kids shows without ever rebooting or needing a restart to clear a problem. As far as I can tell, its never missed a show or blanked a recording.
> 
> Yet it seems that a somewhat flaky component, connector, cable or wire, slightly misaligned dish or errant splat of guide data will make an HR miss shows, blank them out, freeze, reboot and do all sorts of other bad behavior.


I just wanted to address this one bit.

I believe that the issue here is that you're still using the 20-year-old wire to carry the signal it was intended to carry. The DIRECTV DVRs use bandwidth that older cables were not designed to carry. You're right, with the higher bandwidth comes a higher standard requiring that cables and components be correctly installed.

You're absolutely right - that has been a problem, and will probably continue to be a problem until every installer, paid or unpaid, understands how critical good wiring is.

I understand that the wiring part was not really the thrust of the argument; I just wanted to let you know I see your point on that bit.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

paulman182 said:


> The phone is a lot better at making calls, too, but it stinks at recording TV.


And while the DVR isn't yet perfect at recording TV, DIRECTV continues to work on adding phone features like media playing and widgets.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

harsh said:


> And while the DVR isn't yet perfect at recording TV, DIRECTV continues to work on adding phone features like media playing and widgets.


Media playing and widgets are phone features? Nahh...I think they've been jammed into mobile phones in the same haphazard way they've been jammed into some DVRs. It's all about saying you have a feature...not whether it works reliably or not.
If the new features cause the base functions to be less reliable...ahh well, there's always the next model.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Media playing and widgets are phone features? Nahh...I think they've been jammed into mobile phones in the same haphazard way they've been jammed into some DVRs. It's all about saying you have a feature...not whether it works reliably or not.
> If the new features cause the base functions to be less reliable...ahh well, there's always the next model.


Yep, it's always about adding marketing bullet points.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Atari, point well made, but when hasn't it been about marketing bullet points? I suspect that cavemen were running around touting the advantages of flint and steel even when there was neither flint nor steel to be found.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> My first response would be: "I do understand the customer's view "if I poke button x and it doesn't work, I don't care why, just fix it"." [from my post]
> My second is "did you get your DVR for caller ID, or to be a DVR"?
> My third goes back to comparing a VCR to a DVR, since yes they both do the same thing, but the technology used is completely different.


1. I agree. So why do points 2 and 3 even exist? Either there is understanding, or there isn't.

2. It doesn't matter, since neither function works reliably on the HRxx. Maybe I'll hook up my phone to the dish. It'll record just as many shows.
Plus, if you advertise a feature, it should work. Period. Caller ID isn't rocket science -- hundreds of devices can do it and that technology has been around forever. But the HRxx can't even do that right.

3. OK, so how much more time should we give D* to fix the HRxx? How many software releases have there been? How many new hardware boxes have there been? Units are still locking up -- and NEW problems (unexplained signal strength readings) are popping up. If D* were making VCRs, I have doubts as to whether or not they would work.

Plus, if you want apples to apples, the Dish HD DVR is much more reliable. Peeking in those threads reveal minor issues.

Finally, if you want to know why the CNET reviews are poor, just look at the first thread in this forum. A D*-friendly forum. Are the issues in that thread major issues, minor issues, or both? How many posts are there? Have there been at least 10 software releases with "stability" listed as an enhancement?

I return once in a while to dip my toe in to see if anything has changed, and it hasn't. Too bad. I also hope that will change when DirecTivos return. But if I get bit by the HD bug before then, I'm off to Verizon or Dish.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Ken S said:


> Media playing and widgets are phone features? Nahh...I think they've been jammed into mobile phones in the same haphazard way they've been jammed into some DVRs. It's all about saying you have a feature...not whether it works reliably or not.
> If the new features cause the base functions to be less reliable...[Bahh well, there's always the next model.][/B]


Amen brother! Best comment in this thread! Features sell cars, boats, and electronic gear. I wonder what happened to the "KISS" principle?


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> The phone is a lot better at making calls, too, but it stinks at recording TV.


AT&T makes Dvr+'s too?.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> AT&T makes Dvr+'s too?.


AT&T sells DVR's, the don't make them. Granted the AT&T DVR has MRV already, something that D* has been talking about for sometime and is still missing.
Granted I don't think AT&T can handle DLB, but neither can D*.


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## t_h (Mar 7, 2008)

I tend to run at the mouth a little bit and my points sometimes get lost.

The two primary points I wanted to make: that old cable carries a bi-directional high speed internet signal that nobody even dreamed about when the cable itself was laid (along with also carrying digital television) and a consumer electronics product should either operate successfully within an average quality installation or tell you (or the service provider) whats wrong.

Seems like they're taking care of some of this with internet connected HR's reporting low signal levels to directv who then calls the customer.

It seems there are two sets of issues present that lead to bad reviews.

One is that anything substandard in a complex install leads to intermittent or persistent failures and the installers and service people may not always do a good enough job to avoid this. I've done a few of my own installs and had directv contractors do a bunch. Frankly they're more interested in getting a picture and getting out the door than making sure the system is 100%. In the old days a more-or-less well aligned dish and snugging the cables was good enough. But the newer sat technologies, boatloads of digital channels and handling all the local market channels is pushing the technology to its limits.

The other is that it seems that even with a perfect install, some people have problems that others dont have. I attribute this to different models, options, environmental issues and usage patterns. This is not a problem free product for all people and a bad installation or hardware problem is not always the cause.

Many customers new to a product are coming in from something else. They had a non-dvr, they had a cable tv product, or they had a tivo. They probably didnt have HD and if they did, probably werent also using a dvr.

So they've taken a step towards a product that is far more complex internally and in its installation and usage demands, but thats not evident to them.

Three things in a transition result in frustration: change for the worse, failing to meet expectations and variable experienced results.

As a transitioning customer, what I've experienced is a failure to meet the expectations set by the manufacturer and current users. I've found a few usage and environmental factors that created problems and I've solved those, but I still experience periodic failures that are internal to the receiver and its software.

The expectation set by directv to me was "you'll get beautiful HD, you'll have fewer problems with an HR than with a tivo, and we can fix 100% of what goes wrong with it since its all directv product".

The expectation set by dbstalk forum participants was "if your installation is good, you'll have few or no problems with this, its as good as a tivo in almost every regard, and better in many and its much faster".

My personal expectation was "after using a tivo for 8 years, this will be a huge learning curve fraught with frustration for a month or so until we learn the new remote and new ways of doing things".

The reality is that we've experienced a huge number of lost or blank recordings, no reasonable explanations as to why we experienced those failures, the remote is almost impossible to reliably use in the dark, the remote response is frequently terrible, I get channels I dont get in the channels I get list, it deletes shows i've told it not to delete, series links behave in a manner that is not useful to me, and if I turn the tv on while a show is recording or hit the wrong button on the remote at the wrong time, I'll likely see a portion of the show or sporting event that spoils the show.

The positive thing I can report is that yes, the HD is very pretty. But the HD on my locals is frequently glitchy because directv uses antenna's to pick up the locals in my market area and according to the local stations wont commit the dollars to put in a fiber connection, and the antennas suffered substantial damage last winter due to high winds and they were only baling wire/duct tape repaired to hold them over for another year or so until someone wants to cough up the money for replacements. The audio on all of my HD channels is also fraught with problems. I get squeaks and brrrps on a regular basis during some shows on some channels.

So based on my transition experience against expectations, I have to give this product a weak review. Granted it may not be fair to compare different technologies with different complexities, but thats not a relevant factor for most customers. A car is far more complicated than a bicycle, but if the car never starts or stops unexpectedly and nobody can figure out why...the fact that the car is festooned with far more complicated technologies isnt very interesting to me. Having other guys tell me that they have the same car and never have problems with it also isnt very helpful.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> 1. I agree. So why do points 2 and 3 even exist? Either there is understanding, or there isn't.
> 
> 2. It doesn't matter, since neither function works reliably on the HRxx. Maybe I'll hook up my phone to the dish. It'll record just as many shows.
> Plus, if you advertise a feature, it should work. Period. Caller ID isn't rocket science -- hundreds of devices can do it and that technology has been around forever. But the HRxx can't even do that right.
> ...


1) if it works well for the customer, then they're happy. If it doesn't then they're not. [DUH]. I've got three and they all fuction as they should "for me" [= happy customer].
2) Caller ID was a problem. Some have found it to be a grounding problem, or at least they got theirs to work with a proper ground. Others needed to have the receiver replaced. Another problem seems to be with "channels I get". If either of these were high on "my list" of what a DVR must do, and didn't work, then I would be upset.
3) How much more time? Well since it functions well for me [and a few others] and has for over 18 months, these "fixes" are adding new features not in the receiver when it was released.
I've read that the Dish DVRs do work well and have some feactures the DirecTV don't. I've also read there are a few that DirecTV have that Dish doesn't. I changed from Dish to DirecTV for HD programing and before going to the HR20, checked out my local cable with their DVR, and looked into what Dish offered again. For me, local cable was so bad [programing and hardware] that it didn't last a week. With Dish it was the programing, or lack of it.
"Finally": this forum is a place to post issues. It's a place for feedback to DirecTV. What we don't have is a thread for everyone that DOESN'T have a problem. More than likely these customers don't even know of this site/forum.

If you don't have the hardware to use and have a personal experience, I'm not sure how well you can judge the product. Reading "reveiws" or counting "gripes" doesn't [for me] show much. Most "reveiws" seem to be biased, and "gripes" rarely go into enough detail to point to the cause. I could find "reasons" to support either "getting something" or to stay away from it like the plague.

We all will "cherry pick" what we want. It's just human nature.
Is DirecTV and their hardware the best for everyone? Of course not. Thankfully we all have a choice.


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