# DirecTV & Dish Network HD Channel Lineup Comparison



## Hoosier205

goodbye...


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## Hoosier205

Reserved


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## sigma1914

The YES HD under part time RSNs is the My9 network feed for some Yankees games.


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## Hoosier205

sigma1914 said:


> The YES HD under part time RSNs is the My9 network feed for some Yankees games.


That was an entire section I meant to go back and clean up...and forgot. Working on it now.

Update: fixed


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## texasmoose

:icon_bb:Gr8 work Hoosier! This is how I should've done it in the 1st place.


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## Hoosier205

The RSN's are the trickiest area.


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## George_T

Can't pull up the comparison list Hoosier; every time I click on your signature link, it just takes me back to comparison thread. What am I doing wrong?


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## Hoosier205

George_T said:


> Can't pull up the comparison list Hoosier; every time I click on your signature link, it just takes me back to comparison thread. What am I doing wrong?


The list is in the first post of this thread. The link in my signature takes you to that first post. The list appears as an image. Are you not able to see it?


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## Syzygy

Nice job, Hoosier!

A slightly larger font for the table would be nice. And the black on yellow text would be much more readable if it was bolded. As a matter of fact, all the table's unbolded text should be bolded IMO.

The long "Cinema HD" section seems to me to be a waste of space. If the point is to show there are lots of such channels, there might be a better way to go about it. At the least, you could do like you did with Big 10 Network, letting DirecTV and Dish share rows with each other and labeling the rows just plain "Cinema HD".


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## anleva

George_T said:


> Can't pull up the comparison list Hoosier; every time I click on your signature link, it just takes me back to comparison thread. What am I doing wrong?


Same thing happens for me. Could be some blocking of images or something by my company. I see it on my phone but not my PC.


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## lparsons21

Good list Hoosier, thanks for taking the time. It really shows the emphasis each service puts on types of HD programming they lean towards.


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## George_T

Weird. Went back to check my settings, and images are enabled. Still can't pull up the list. I'll check later. Maybe it's something to do with being at my work computer. I'll check at home tonight.


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## Hoosier205

Syzygy said:


> Nice job, Hoosier!
> 
> A slightly larger font for the table would be nice. And the black on yellow text would be much more readable if it was bolded. As a matter of fact, all the table's unbolded text should be bolded IMO.
> 
> The long "Cinema HD" section seems to me to be a waste of space. If the point is to show there are lots of such channels, there might be a better way to go about it. At the least, you could do like you did with Big 10 Network, letting DirecTV and Dish share rows with each other and labeling the rows just plain "Cinema HD".


All good ideas. I'll work on it and post an update.

Update: I made those changes. I condensed the Cinema HD section. I know that I could just put xx number of Cinema HD per provider, but I think it is nice to have both the numerical value at the top and the visual aide within the list.


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## dcowboy7

IMO 
- both the directv & dish columns should be the same width just for esthetics.
- 3D should be the next to last block right before provider channels.


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## Hoosier205

dcowboy7 said:


> IMO
> - both the directv & dish columns should be the same width just for esthetics.
> - 3D should be the next to last block right before provider channels.


I may move "3D" as you suggested. Both the DirecTV and the Dish column are the same width however.

Update: I moved 3D towards the bottom.


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## RasputinAXP

Provider owned: DishFYI on 101 is part time HD at night. Shows concerts.


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## Hoosier205

RasputinAXP said:


> Provider owned: DishFYI on 101 is part time HD at night. Shows concerts.


It's called DishFYI? I'll add it. Thank you.


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## RasputinAXP

Also, I'd REALLY recommend making that JPG a GIF. I made it a 32 color GIF and it's 195K instead of 1.5 MB.

Edited to add:
ESPN Full Court (college basketball package) is on Dish and in HD


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## Hoosier205

RasputinAXP said:


> Also, I'd REALLY recommend making that JPG a GIF. I made it a 32 color GIF and it's 195K instead of 1.5 MB.
> 
> Edited to add:
> ESPN Full Court (college basketball package) is on Dish and in HD


Thanks.


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## DogLover

Great work! 

If I was looking at both providers, it would be simpler to compare if there was one section for the RSNs, with some indication of full time, part time, or missing. Of course that would add more text, or require another color, so that also complicates the chart.

The way that it is now has all the information, you just have to make sure you read it all. (Which, if someone is really comparing the providers, they should be doing anyway.)

Again, great job!


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## Hoosier205

Is ESPN Full Court in HD only on Dish Network or on both providers? I want to confirm this before updating the list again.


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## Hoosier205

DogLover said:


> Great work!
> 
> If I was looking at both providers, it would be simpler to compare if there was one section for the RSNs, with some indication of full time, part time, or missing. Of course that would add more text, or require another color, so that also complicates the chart.
> 
> The way that it is now has all the information, you just have to make sure you read it all. (Which, if someone is really comparing the providers, they should be doing anyway.)
> 
> Again, great job!


Hmm...I have an idea for that. I'll work on it and see how it looks.


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## anleva

anleva said:


> Same thing happens for me. Could be some blocking of images or something by my company. I see it on my phone but not my PC.


Confirmed what the issue is. I viewed page info and noticed the image URL of http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/7970/directvdishnetwork14.jpg. Pasted that in my browser and got an access denied message.

Apparently that site is is blocked by my corporate IT department.


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## Hoosier205

RasputinAXP said:


> Also, I'd REALLY recommend making that JPG a GIF. I made it a 32 color GIF and it's 195K instead of 1.5 MB.


That made a huge difference. Thanks again.


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## Altales Teriadem

You should make a distinction between part-time and full-time carriage for channels other than RSNs—for instance, Fox Soccer Plus HD is a full-time channel which DirecTV only carries part-time, while ESPN 3D and NFL RedZone are part-time channels on any carrier. Using a different color for part-time carriage would also allow you to have just one list of RSNs.


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## Hoosier205

Altales Teriadem said:


> You should make a distinction between part-time and full-time carriage for channels other than RSNs-for instance, Fox Soccer Plus HD is a full-time channel which DirecTV only carries part-time, while ESPN 3D and NFL RedZone are part-time channels on any carrier. Using a different color for part-time carriage would also allow you to have just one list of RSNs.


Yes, I am thinking of doing something like that. Those changes will likely come tomorrow.Thank you.


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## RasputinAXP

Hoosier205 said:


> Is ESPN Full Court in HD only on Dish Network or on both providers? I want to confirm this before updating the list again.


Honestly, no idea. D* doesn't mention it on their Full Court site.


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## BqWUDUDj

That's a nice chart. Should "HD" be in the thread title, because the chart seems to be exclusive to HD. I'm on Dish for the internationals and I'd like to see how Dish stacks up against DirecTV and Verizon.


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## harsh

Altales Teriadem said:


> Using a different color for part-time carriage would also allow you to have just one list of RSNs.


This gets dicey when some of the cinema channels go off temporarily for events. I question whether something that gets taken down for events should be considered part time.

Then again, if they're playing the same thing on more than one channel (I'm thinking primarily Cinema HD, but this may include sports alternate channels), should they all count?


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## georule

I would suggest instead of showing RED blocks on the DirecTV side for the part-time RSNs section where D* provides that RSN full-time that you use a different color and put a note in the squares like "Full Time". Otherwise someone just skimming might get the wrong idea.

I know this is DBSTalk, but I must say I miss not having the other providers in the list as well, because when my D* contract ends, I'll be considering the entire universe of options open to me in making a decision on what to do going forward.

But good work.

And credit/link whats-his-name anyway, even if you do it in a left-handed fashion like ". . . and I did this list because I found his original to be unsatisfactory for reasons A, B, C. . . "


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## harsh

BqWUDUDj said:


> I'm on Dish for the internationals and I'd like to see how Dish stacks up against DirecTV and Verizon.


You're on your own on that front. I'm not convinced that Verizon even has a horse in that race.


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## georule

The other thing that occurred to me to do is to split the "Standard HD" into "Standard HD (Sports)" and "Standard HD (non-sports)". The first of those would include the dedicated sports channels like the ESPNs, Versus, Golf HD, etc.

The reason for doing so is you'd then be able to have a subtotal for sports in total (including that and the RSNs and sports premiums).

My theory is that people tend to relate to their programming needs in at least 3 catagories --sports, non-sports, and premiums-- and those catagories impact their decision making.

You could probably make an argument for subsetting movies the same way, so you could have a subtotal for Standard movie channels (AMC, TCM, whatever) plus premiums. so that the first catagory becomes "Standard HD (non-sports general)", "Standard HD (movies)" and "Standard HD (sports)".

Instead of breaking non-sports general and movies out of their blocks in the detail list, you could use different colors than green (or different shades of green) for them if the provider has it and leave them in their current blocks.

Just a suggestion. . . .


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## DogLover

georule said:


> The other thing that occurred to me to do is to split the "Standard HD" into "Standard HD (Sports)" and "Standard HD (non-sports)". The first of those would include the dedicated sports channels like the ESPNs, Versus, Golf HD, etc.
> 
> The reason for doing so is you'd then be able to have a subtotal for sports in total (including that and the RSNs and sports premiums).
> 
> My theory is that people tend to relate to their programming needs in at least 3 catagories --sports, non-sports, and premiums-- and those catagories impact their decision making.
> 
> You could probably make an argument for subsetting movies the same way, so you could have a subtotal for Standard movie channels (AMC, TCM, whatever) plus premiums. so that the first catagory becomes "Standard HD (non-sports general)", "Standard HD (movies)" and "Standard HD (sports)".
> 
> Instead of breaking non-sports general and movies out of their blocks in the detail list, you could use different colors than green (or different shades of green) for them if the provider has it and leave them in their current blocks.
> 
> Just a suggestion. . . .


While the sports/non-sports may make sense, tyring to identify "movie" channels vs non-movie channels may get tough. So many channels now days (even those that started out as movie channels) show a variety of programming. You run into too many different opinions of what is a movie channel and what isn't.

The detail is there, so people can count the channels however they want. The counts may give a general idea to people, but the detail is the important part. (It doesn't matter how much HD a provider has, if the channels you watch aren't in HD.)


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## georule

Regarding the "RSNs are useless" vs "RSN's aren't useless" debate, it occurred to me it might be worthwhile for somebody to canvass those RSNs for their unique locally produced content that is not blacked out, to make that case more objectively.

Here's my contribution (FSN North): http://www.gophersports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8400&ATCLID=3731527

FSN North also does a limited schedule of high school hockey.

And before you sun-belters sneer at hockey in general, if you're a "Minnesotan in exile" this kind of thing could be very compelling to you.


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## Syzygy

Hoosier, I like how responsive you are to our suggestions.

Here's more: In the body of each table, please use another color than green for the background behind the current HD channel names. It would be less confusing. And I think a key, or legend, is needed to remind the reader that green means Yes and red means No.


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## GlennDio

RasputinAXP said:


> Honestly, no idea. D* doesn't mention it on their Full Court site.


wow ...I don't know about this one ... D* full court Channels are SD only ..however if the game is in HD on the RSN it comes through there in HD (Although I also sub to the Sports pack so it may just be me) anyways ... is this just Dish not having Full time HD RSNs so they put the games that we can get in HD on the Fulltime RSNs in "fullcourt" even though we at D* get the same (or more I guess if the game is on YES or any RSN that Dish doesn't get) games in HD ...

seems like it shouldn't be counted for Dish to me but I really don't like giving D* credit for it either ... this is different than the Game Plan scenario where many games are not on RSNs (ABC alt games) but are NOT shown in HD in the Game Plan channels


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## Hoosier205

Syzygy said:


> Hoosier, I like how responsive you are to our suggestions.
> 
> Here's more: In the body of each table, please use another color than green for the background behind the current HD channel names. It would be less confusing. And I think a key, or legend, is needed to remind the reader that green means Yes and red means No.


I have a key in the master document now. I just haven't finished it in order to upload it yet. What color would folks recommend behind the text of the channel names?


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## Hoosier205

GlennDio said:


> wow ...I don't know about this one ... D* full court Channels are SD only ..however if the game is in HD on the RSN it comes through there in HD (Although I also sub to the Sports pack so it may just be me) anyways ... is this just Dish not having Full time HD RSNs so they put the games that we can get in HD on the Fulltime RSNs in "fullcourt" even though we at D* get the same (or more I guess if the game is on YES or any RSN that Dish doesn't get) games in HD ...
> 
> seems like it shouldn't be counted for Dish to me but I really don't like giving D* credit for it either ... this is different than the Game Plan scenario where many games are not on RSNs (ABC alt games) but are NOT shown in HD in the Game Plan channels


I agree...I don't know either. We need more feedback from both DirecTV and Dish Subs. I am not familiar enough with Full Court.


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## Syzygy

Hoosier205 said:


> What color would folks recommend behind the text of the channel names?


Well, now, since you asked, I have to start thinking about it for the first time... 

1. I guess it should be a light, or even a pastel color, with a brightness similar to the yellow that's already in use.

2. My own preference would be for a light blue; but maybe a pinkish color, or even a pale green, would make the chart appear less busy than a blue would.

Just my 2 cents' worth.


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## Hoosier205

The list has been updated. I added a third color for part-time channels, changed the background color behind the names of each channel, and combined the full-time and part-time RSN channels into one section. 

When I get a moment I am going to clean up the RSN sections. They are not in any particular order...just scattered about as I tried to make sure I had them all. They will be alphabetized. Also, some FSN channels are listed as "FS" while others are listed as "FSN" and I will fix those inconsistencies.


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## Hoosier205

Syzygy said:


> Well, now, since you asked, I have to start thinking about it for the first time...
> 
> 1. I guess it should be a light, or even a pastel color, with a brightness similar to the yellow that's already in use.
> 
> 2. My own preference would be for a light blue; but maybe a pinkish color, or even a pale green, would make the chart appear less busy than a blue would.
> 
> Just my 2 cents' worth.


Well, I went with dark blue. The reason being that I had already picked a light blue for part-time channels. Anything and everything can be changed however. We'll see how it goes.


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## texasmoose

Like the updated look! It really pops, like my 2 PDPs!


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## pdawg17

Wow...I didn't know Dish had E! and G4 in HD...c'mon Directv!


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## BigRedFan

Hoosier205 said:


> Yes, I agree. I'll add those two at some point on Friday and the others when they become available.


Thank you !... The AVS "policy" to exclude these type of National HD Networks makes no sense in today's multi-distribution landscape....And thus, results in an incomplete/misleading look at national HD distribution...

ESPN Monday Night Football games get broadcast/over-the-air affiliates' distribution every week in the 2 teams home markets, yet I don't see AVS excluding ESPN from their List....I'm sure there are many other examples out there....


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## bobnielsen

Maybe CSN Philadelphia and CSN Northwest (possibly others) should be added (neither carries at this point).


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## Syzygy

Hoosier205 said:


> Well, I went with dark blue. The reason being that I had already picked a light blue for part-time channels. Anything and everything can be changed however. We'll see how it goes.


Looks great to me! The chart keeps getting better. I think the dark blue BG works very well, better than a pastel would've.


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## spaul

I, think if anybody takes the time to view the chart in full you made it seems easy to compare DirecTv to Dish.It,s interesting that on premium channels on services they both have DirecTv has way more Starz & Showtime channels but, Dish has more Cinamax &HBO .Also, it does seem funny that the 2 shopping channels QVC & HSN would not have carriage after a year of going HD. Seems they are losing alot of subs. between the 2 services.


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## Hoosier205

I have a lot of (real) work to do today, but I will make take care of some updates later today.


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## paulman182

spaul said:


> I, think if anybody takes the time to view the chart in full you made it seems easy to compare DirecTv to Dish.It,s interesting that on premium channels on services they both have DirecTv has way more Starz & Showtime channels but, Dish has more Cinamax &HBO .Also, it does seem funny that the 2 shopping channels QVC & HSN would not have carriage after a year of going HD. Seems they are losing alot of subs. between the 2 services.


I wonder, though, how many actual purchases do they lose due to lack of HD? I'd think not many.

Great job, Hoosier.


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## georule

I like what you did in combining the RSNs blocks and changing the color for full-time vs part-time. Much easier to understand. I don't think you should have added them together for the summary at the top, however, as that loses the value of the distinction entirely. And part of the argument is that distinction *is* valuable.


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## Syzygy

I've appended a link to this table to 3 of my sigs: here, AVS and TiVoCommunity.


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## pfp

I'm having a difficult time seeing which channel goes with the results. It may help to have alternating background color on the channel names to make it easier. Alternatively, placing the results before the channel name would probably work just as well too.


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## allargon

Might you rename Cinema HD to PPV? The name Cinema implies a linear movie channel which PPV clearly is not.


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## la24philly

espn full court is on directv you have it on your list as not carried its on their site.


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## QuickDrop

Since you include PPV, Part-time RSNs, and RSN alternatives, doesn't it also make sense to include the 57 1 movie HD channels that E* counts as well as DirecTV's equivalent selection?

Many providers use "On-Demand" not linear channels to provide most of their PPV content. If you want to be fair across the board it seems only right to include them.


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## Hoosier205

la24philly said:


> espn full court is on directv you have it on your list as not carried its on their site.


Yes, but is it in HD? It's not about whether or not they have it at all, but if they carry it in HD. Full Court is not something I am very familiar with. So, if both DirecTV and Dish customers can confirm if Full Court is available in HD...we'll get it right on the list.


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## dcowboy7

Arent we only counting full time channels ?

So to me combining the fulltime/parttime RSNs in 1 line is confusing.

Also the final total # doesnt match when adding the columns #s then.


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## ShawnL25

QuickDrop said:


> Since you include PPV, Part-time RSNs, and RSN alternatives, doesn't it also make sense to include the 57 1 movie HD channels that E* counts as well as DirecTV's equivalent selection?
> 
> Many providers use "On-Demand" not linear channels to provide most of their PPV content. If you want to be fair across the board it seems only right to include them.


But then what do you say. Directv has 500 HD VOD selections, Dish has 502 HD VOD Selections. Both providers have lots of programming in HD. If you factor in Comcast they say they have 10,000 choices. You them come to find out that sme of them are 2 min. clips. Best to just leave out VOD all together.


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## James Long

Missing Channels:
Univision HD
Telefutura HD
(These are national HD feeds along with Galavision in DISH's "AT200" package.)
Also - DISH has a HD Sports PPV channel and Hustler TV HD.

Have I missed the post that explains the math?
65+24+30+29+37+3+1=189 not 161 (28 channels)
78+27+26+10+21+1=163 not 128 (35 channels)


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## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> Missing Channels:
> Univision HD
> Telefutura HD
> (These are national HD feeds along with Galavision in DISH's "AT200" package.)
> Also - DISH has a HD Sports PPV channel and Hustler TV HD.
> 
> Have I missed the post that explains the math?
> 65+24+30+29+37+3+1=189 not 161 (28 channels)
> 78+27+26+10+21+1=163 not 128 (35 channels)


It is in the process of being fixed.


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## Hoosier205

dcowboy7 said:


> Arent we only counting full time channels ?
> 
> So to me combining the fulltime/parttime RSNs in 1 line is confusing.
> 
> Also the final total # doesnt match when adding the columns #s then.


Well, as of right now, we are going to count both full-time and part-time. If it is available in HD, we'll count it. We'll color code them differently based on full-time/part-time. Of course, this is all subject to change based on feedback.


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## Hoosier205

BTW...I have fixed the majority of the math in the master copy (has not been posted yet, so the one in the first post is still wrong). The grand totals are correct in my copy, but not the category totals. The formulas were shifted as some point when I was making formatting changes. I just have to go through and correct those. That will come later. 

So, until I post the correct version the one listed in the first post has fuzzy math.


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## QuickDrop

BigRedFan said:


> Thank you !... The AVS "policy" to exclude these type of National HD Networks makes no sense in today's multi-distribution landscape....And thus, results in an incomplete/misleading look at national HD distribution...
> 
> ESPN Monday Night Football games get broadcast/over-the-air affiliates' distribution every week in the 2 teams home markets, yet I don't see AVS excluding ESPN from their List....I'm sure there are many other examples out there....


It makes sense in that:

a.) They are not intended as national channels. They are local channels offered nationally by one provider.

b.) They are full time channels only if the one subscribes to at least three separate sport packages and even then some NFL related programming get blacked out. Imagine if you subscribed to HBO or Showtime and then found out you had to pay $450 more per year to get their best original programming.

c.) Except for a subset of DirecTV subscribers, very few pay television subscribers think of them when the phrase "National HD" is used.

d.) They are better included as it relates to individual MLB, NBA, and NHL packages and how many HD games each provider has.


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## QuickDrop

ShawnL25 said:


> But then what do you say. Directv has 500 HD VOD selections, Dish has 502 HD VOD Selections. Both providers have lots of programming in HD. If you factor in Comcast they say they have 10,000 choices. You them come to find out that sme of them are 2 min. clips. Best to just leave out VOD all together.


That's my point though. He's already counting part time channels as channels. Also this whole idea got started because the OP thought RSNs chould be counted as national channels at AVS Forum, saying cable could offer them if they wanted. The same logic should then apply to PPV. Different providers offer PPVs differently; DirecTV shouldn't get extra-credit for offering them in a way that counts as linear channels.


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## James Long

One of the goals I had when I started my list a couple of years ago was in explaining the count given by the providers ... I'd like people to look at the list and be able to say "oh, that is where they are getting that number". It gets difficult when providers claim different numbers for each other's services so I've broken away from that a little and gone on a "like channel" comparison.

All the channels in AT250 vs all the channels in Choice Ultimate (both packages being the highest basic package before adding all the premium movie channels) seems to be a fairly good place to draw the "Standard HD" line ... even though TMC and Encore are offered at that level they are offered equally so it really doesn't make that much difference.

All the channels in AEP (America's Everything Package) vs all the channels in Premier brings in the premium channels and on DirecTV the sports package channels.

Then I list the Platinum HD and Extra HD packages ... they are mostly basic channels but could be considered premiums. For 10 months DISH included their Platinum HD with regular HD service ... now it is separate again. I suppose they could go into a "Plus" category but I don't like putting them into the "Standard HD" category. They are separate enough that they need recognition.

And that is usually where I draw the line ... PPVs come after that and part-times. Since DirecTV pulls counted PPV channels to create part-time sports channels their PPV (DirecTV Cinema) count changes on a daily basis. Are there 37 PPV Cinema channels on DirecTV today? Probably not. So instead of changing the count every time Sixto notes a PPV channel being assigned to or from sports I leave them all counted as PPV channels. DISH does not reduce their PPV (DISH Cinema) channels for their part-time sports. They have dedicated channels set aside for that content. Unfortunately they only have 12 channels set aside for their 26 RSNs and any other part-time sports content so from a "bandwidth" standpoint I can't count all of their 26 RSNs ... but they claim them so going back to the first rule (explaining what channels the providers are counting) I list them with the capacity note.

Alternate channels. That's the real mess. If you add DirecTV's alternate channels into a count without reducing their PPV count I would consider it misleading. The same would go for DISH as their alternate sports channels are the same 12 channel max capacity listed for RSNs. DirecTV has wisely chosen not to count those channels so I'll follow their lead. (The exception would be the Sports PPV channel, which shares space with DISH's channel 101.)

Sports packages ... good to note but don't change the counts. They are mirrors of other channels not separate channels.

Channels neither provider carries. I don't see the point. If it is a channel that IS carried in SD then listing it makes some sense as people may look for their favorite channel and want to see it listed - even if it is only in red. But channels not carried on either provider in SD? I probably wouldn't bother.


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## dcowboy7

Hoosier205 said:


> Well, as of right now, we are going to count both full-time and part-time. If it is available in HD, we'll count it. We'll color code them differently based on full-time/part-time. Of course, this is all subject to change based on feedback.


Yep im just saying that instead of having 1 line say ft/pt rsns=30 i would have 1 line be ft rsns=27 & a 2nd line pt rsns=3 instead of lumping them all in together....kinda like how the alternates have a seperate line to themselves.

*edit:*
yep the topbox #s -- u got it good now -- thx.


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## Hoosier205

dcowboy7 said:


> Yep im just saying that instead of having 1 line say ft/pt rsns=30 i would have 1 line be ft rsns=27 & a 2nd line pt rsns=3 instead of lumping them all in together....kinda like how the alternates have a seperate line to themselves.


Do you mean a separate line at the top...where the totals are? I could separate full-time and part-time there and just keep them combined in the list.


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## Hoosier205

Channels that are available, but not carried by either provider will remain in the list. They will serve as reference for what is still out there waiting to be picked up by either carrier. Upcoming (not yet launched) channels will also remain in the list as well. I think people like to know that channel XYZ has announced a future HD launch.


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## Hoosier205

I just posted another updated. I have not yet added Univision HD, Telefutura HD, Galavision, the DISH HD Sports PPV channel, Hustler TV HD. Those will come in the next update. 

Am I missing anything else?

Dcowboy7...I changed the top of the list to include those separate lines.

Also, the last few updates have incorporated a two-tone color scheme for blue, red, and green to give them a bit more pop.


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## QuickDrop

James Long said:


> Channels neither provider carries. I don't see the point. If it is a channel that IS carried in SD then listing it makes some sense as people may look for their favorite channel and want to see it listed - even if it is only in red. But channels not carried on either provider in SD? I probably wouldn't bother.


Assuming that the hope of this list is to accurately describe to potential satellite subscribers what each provider offers, I think it's a good idea to include the status of channels neither provider has. People might have read about them somewhere and are interested. A definitive "NO" on the chart is better than having it missing altogether. That way they don't have to wonder whether something was missed.


----------



## James Long

QuickDrop said:


> It makes sense in that:
> 
> a.) They are not intended as national channels. They are local channels offered nationally by one provider.


More than one provider offers them nationally ... but they are intended for regional audiences - just like regional affiliates of broadcast networks are intended for their own markets.



> b.) They are full time channels only if the one subscribes to at least three separate sport packages and even then some NFL related programming get blacked out. Imagine if you subscribed to HBO or Showtime and then found out you had to pay $450 more per year to get their best original programming.


IIRC the channels themselves are still blacked out and one must find the games on channels dedicated to the sports package in question. So to watch all of the content on a distant RSN one would have to find it across several channels that would change on a daily basis.



> c.) Except for a subset of DirecTV subscribers, very few pay television subscribers think of them when the phrase "National HD" is used.


True. Everyone who does a fair count creates a special place for them. The argument is over whether or not they count. I don't recall anyone listing them all as "Standard HD" channels like ESPN. Even those who count them count them with an asterisk.



> d.) They are better included as it relates to individual MLB, NBA, and NHL packages and how many HD games each provider has.


Which puts them in a category to be noted but not counted.

The primary issue to remember with the AVS list is that it is not focused on satellite. Satellite companies DO carry RSNs nationwide. I won't fault a person without satellite for not considering RSNs as nationwide carried channels. But I will remain cautious in how I count them.


----------



## Hoosier205

They count on the list here. AVS can choose not to count them. They are national channels featuring regional sports. There is much more to offer from RSN's beyond professional sports.


----------



## woj027

bobnielsen said:


> Maybe CSN Philadelphia and CSN Northwest (possibly others) should be added (neither carries at this point).


Yea these two RSN's are out there, just not on DirecTV or Dish.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> They count on the list here. AVS can choose not to count them. They are national channels featuring regional sports. There is much more to offer from RSN's beyond professional sports.


Agreed ... and that's why I put them in with the premiums where DirecTV places them instead of as a complete footnote. Full time channels "counted".


----------



## James Long

woj027 said:


> bobnielsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe CSN Philadelphia and CSN Northwest (possibly others) should be added (neither carries at this point).
> 
> 
> 
> Yea these two RSN's are out there, just not on DirecTV or Dish.
Click to expand...

Those two may be the only truly "regional" sports networks until the FCC forces them to allow carriage. They may end up being offered like SportsSouth or Cox Sports New Orleans.


----------



## woj027

James Long said:


> Those two may be the only truly "regional" sports networks until the FCC forces them to allow carriage. They may end up being offered like SportsSouth or Cox Sports New Orleans.


Quite annoying that comcast isn't willing to put these channels up either for a reasonable rate, or at all.


----------



## QuickDrop

QuickDrop said:


> It makes sense in that:
> 
> a.) They are not intended as national channels. They are local channels offered nationally by one provider.
> 
> b.) They are full time channels only if the one subscribes to at least three separate sport packages and even then some NFL related programming get blacked out. Imagine if you subscribed to HBO or Showtime and then found out you had to pay $450 more per year to get their best original programming.
> 
> c.) Except for a subset of DirecTV subscribers, very few pay television subscribers think of them when the phrase "National HD" is used.
> 
> d.) They are better included as it relates to individual MLB, NBA, and NHL packages and how many HD games each provider has.


I just want to say that my points about why I don't consider RSNs national channels was posted in another thread where a long discussion concerning the nature of RSNs was discussed. Nothing I wrote was meant to apply directly to this thread.

As for RSNs as it applies to the way the OP counts them, I have no problem including them as long as they are separated out, which the OP does.

I do think that (possible) full time RSNs and part time RSNs should be kept separate. I question whether either should be included in the full channels count since they are unique to even premium channels because you have to subscribe to several packages to make them resemble full time channels. At the very least, there should be footnotes to explain what is required to make "full time RSNs" "full time" since it's not as simple as just subscribing to them.


----------



## Syzygy

Beautiful, jewel-like red, blue & green boxes! Hot diggety!


----------



## David Ortiz

QuickDrop said:


> I question whether either should be included in the full channels count since they are unique to even premium channels because you have to subscribe to several packages to make them resemble full time channels. At the very least, there should be footnotes to explain what is required to make "full time RSNs" "full time" since it's not as simple as just subscribing to them.


I am a Yankee fan living in Fresno, CA. With DIRECTV I can subscribe to MLB Extra Innings and watch virtually all of the Yankees schedule, with Yankee announcers. DIRECTV provides the most HD MLB games, usually providing both home and away team's feeds for MLB Extra Innings subscribers. DIRECTV can do this because they carry all of these RSNs on CONUS transponders.

As a Yankee fan, I wouldn't even consider subscribing to MLB Extra Innings from another provider. I'm sure many other baseball fans appreciate not being forced to watch the "other" team's announcers on DIRECTV.

If one is a sports fan, and interested in the most HD, then these RSNs are very important in considering channel count.


----------



## tonyd79

anleva said:


> Same thing happens for me. Could be some blocking of images or something by my company. I see it on my phone but not my PC.


The picture is on a picture hosting site. Some setups (like mine at work) block those sites.


----------



## QuickDrop

David Ortiz said:


> I am a Yankee fan living in Fresno, CA. With DIRECTV I can subscribe to MLB Extra Innings and watch virtually all of the Yankees schedule, with Yankee announcers. DIRECTV provides the most HD MLB games, usually providing both home and away team's feeds for MLB Extra Innings subscribers. DIRECTV can do this because they carry all of these RSNs on CONUS transponders.
> 
> As a Yankee fan, I wouldn't even consider subscribing to MLB Extra Innings from another provider. I'm sure many other baseball fans appreciate not being forced to watch the "other" team's announcers on DIRECTV.
> 
> If one is a sports fan, and interested in the most HD, then these RSNs are very important in considering channel count.


You just described why Extra Innings is better on DirecTV than elsewhere. I completely agree. That doesn't change the fact that the YES Network is different than HBO or Showtime, let alone E!, AMC, or BBCA.

I'm not attacking RSNs or DirecTV for providing most of them nationally. I'm only saying they are fundamentally different than every other "full time" "national" channel and that needs to be specifically pointed out for any inclusion of them on a chart to be useful.


----------



## James Long

QuickDrop said:


> I'm not attacking RSNs or DirecTV for providing most of them nationally. I'm only saying they are fundamentally different than every other "full time" "national" channel and that needs to be specifically pointed out for any inclusion of them on a chart to be useful.


I don't see anyone here failing to do so. If you're complaining about another site perhaps you should complain on the other site? Everyone here seems to have "gotten the message" and knows both the value and limitations of RSNs.


----------



## dcowboy7

QuickDrop said:


> That doesn't change the fact that the YES Network is different than HBO or Showtime, let alone E!, AMC, or BBCA.
> (It's also different from most other RSNs since it covers only one sport.)


You lost me.

YES has yanks & nets...isnt that 2 sports ?

Oh they also have Notre Dame football replays.


----------



## QuickDrop

James Long said:


> I don't see anyone here failing to do so. If you're complaining about another site perhaps you should complain on the other site. Everyone here seems to have "gotten the message" and knows both the value and limitation of RSNs.


I was responding to the comments of one specific poster who took some issue with what I said. Since he quoted me, he apparently "failed" (in your words) to understand the post he was quoting. Just as likely, I personally failed to explain myself fully in the post he quoted and took the time to make my position clear.

Again, this is why I'm upset that my RSN post was moved out of context. Before it was, I posted in this thread, but my focus was on how part-time channels/PPV/On-Demand programming should be counted. I purposely kept out of the "What do RSNs qualify as?" debate. The moving of my post (and a few others) from another thread that included countless recent posts that were not moved about RSNs compared to national channels made it appear that I was responding to posts I was not.


----------



## QuickDrop

dcowboy7 said:


> You lost me.
> 
> YES has yanks & nets...isnt that 2 sports ?
> 
> Oh they also have Notre Dame football replays.


Okay, take out my parenthetical comment. I'll edit and fix it. Everything else still applies.


----------



## James Long

QuickDrop said:


> Again, this is why I'm upset that my RSN post was moved out of context.


Get over it ... it could be argued that this whole thread was created because of the way RSNs are counted over at another forum. The OP decided to create his own list here which moves the argument over "what counts" here. We're certainly not going to have it in multiple threads.

Now let's try to continue the topics without the OT complaining.


----------



## nightrider

adult entertainment monthly dish network has reality kings tv and hustler tv for 39.99 combo ,,, where as directv has just the hustler for 39.99 ,i say dish is way better on there adult channels ,


----------



## Satelliteracer

QuickDrop said:


> It makes sense in that:
> 
> a.) They are not intended as national channels. They are local channels offered nationally by one provider.
> 
> b.) They are full time channels only if the one subscribes to at least three separate sport packages and even then some NFL related programming get blacked out. Imagine if you subscribed to HBO or Showtime and then found out you had to pay $450 more per year to get their best original programming.
> 
> c.) Except for a subset of DirecTV subscribers, very few pay television subscribers think of them when the phrase "National HD" is used.
> 
> d.) They are better included as it relates to individual MLB, NBA, and NHL packages and how many HD games each provider has.


Letter b, I'm confused with what you are saying there. If a customer wants to see Fox Sports college football games from the Pac Ten or ACC, they need only subscribe to one package, SPORTS PACK to get those games nationally. Not three. I understand what you are saying as it relates to pro sports, but there is a TON of HD college sports football and basketball on those RSNs from the Big East (SNY), Pac Ten, ACC, etc that delivered nationally for about $10 a month on average.


----------



## QuickDrop

Satelliteracer said:


> Letter b, I'm confused with what you are saying there. If a customer wants to see Fox Sports college football games from the Pac Ten or ACC, they need only subscribe to one package, SPORTS PACK to get those games nationally. Not three. I understand what you are saying as it relates to pro sports, but there is a TON of HD college sports football and basketball on those RSNs from the Big East (SNY), Pac Ten, ACC, etc that delivered nationally for about $10 a month on average.


I don't see how you can be confused. I never said you had to subscribe to the three professional sports packages to get any programming. If you only subscribe to the Sports Pack, which I do, some channels do carry college games not carried nationally and some of those games are in HD. Still, you need to subscribe to three professional sports packages, to make the RSNs close to being full time HD channels. Are you still confused?

As I said before, I have nothing against the RSNs or DirecTV for carrying them "full time." But they are obviously different from both national channels intended for a national audience and national premium movie channels. Some people seem like they want to confuse the issue by acting as though factually pointing out what RSNs carried nationally are is an attack on all RSN programming, most especially the programming you get without subscribing to anything other than the RSNs themselves. I consider this nothing other than misdirection.


----------



## Satelliteracer

QuickDrop said:


> I don't see how you can be confused. I never said you had to subscribe to the three professional sports packages to get any programming. If you only subscribe to the Sports Pack, which I do, some channels do carry college games not carried nationally and some of those games are in HD. Still, you need to subscribe to three professional sports packages, to make the RSNs close to being full time HD channels. Are you still confused?


Perhaps it's just semantics, then. An RSN that only has one pro sports team, for example, and carries 80% of their games...let's say NBA....that means they are 24/7 HD broadcasting except for 82 games X .80 = 65.6 days of the year when instead of 24 hours, they carry 21 hours of HD. Or, in other words, 196.8 hours are blacked out while 8,563.2 hours are not (97.7% of the year it's in HD).

Now, there are certainly some RSNs that have 3 or 4 teams and more hours are blacked out, but you're still talking the vast vast vast majority of the time 85%+ are HD.

Just my two cents....they should be counted as national because they can be seen NATIONALLY. At the end of the day, it's about consumption. Whether or not a customer thinks a channel is local or regional or whatever, if it is delivered in a fashion where anyone in the nation can see it, it is a NATIONAL channel. A person in California does not care if the game is coming out of FSN Cincinnati.


----------



## James Long

nightrider said:


> adult entertainment monthly dish network has reality kings tv and hustler tv for 39.99 combo ,,, where as directv has just the hustler for 39.99 ,i say dish is way better on there adult channels ,


Hustler TV alone via DISH is $29.99 per month, but that is just the SD feed. Reality Kings is $29.99 alone so $39.99 is a good price - one can save 9% more by paying annually. But it still doesn't include the HD feed.

As far as I can tell, the HD feed of Hustler TV is only available PPV ... $13.99 for each 90 minute block or in a three hour package with six other channels for $17.99. I'm not sure why Hustler HD isn't available monthly along with Hustler TV.


----------



## QuickDrop

Satelliteracer said:


> A person in California does not care if the game is coming out of FSN Cincinnati.


They care when to see that game on the channel they already subscribe to they need subscribe to another yet another package. (In the case of Cincinnati, your imaginary person lucked out and it is only one other package:Extra Innings.) It doesn't change the fact (in fact it helps prove it) that counting DirecTV "full time RSNs" as full time HD channels requires subscriptions to the professional sport packages in addition to subscribing to the channels themselves. That's not semantics; that's a fact.


----------



## James Long

Satelliteracer said:


> Perhaps it's just semantics, then. An RSN that only has one pro sports team, for example, and carries 80% of their games...let's say NBA....that means they are 24/7 HD broadcasting except for 82 games X .80 = 65.6 days of the year when instead of 24 hours, they carry 21 hours of HD. Or, in other words, 196.8 hours are blacked out while 8,563.2 hours are not (97.7% of the year it's in HD).


The value of that one team RSN for content other than that blacked out is likely the same on a nationwide basis as a RSN with several teams and more blackouts. Other than blacked out shows what is on RSNs? Shows about the teams? High school sports? The "one team RSNs" need more filler. Is that filler likely to be of national interest?

The only positive I could see with the one team RSN (without a single sports package) would be the increased likelyhood of a non-blacked out replay and, as noted, college games. If the RSN fills their non-pro time with good college games it could make the channel worthwhile where a multi-team RSN would not have time for college games (too busy with the pros).

And outside the blackouts one must never forget two things: One, having the RSNs makes the games available for the pro sports packages and Two, having full time RSNs makes sure that THAT RSNs games will air in HD and not be skipped over when the carrier picks what 12 HD games will be aired at a particular time. The difference between a full-time RSN on DirecTV and the same RSN on DISH is that any game the RSN sends will be passed on by DirecTV to subscribers who are not blacked out. The same can't be said about DISH.


----------



## Hoosier205

We can discuss the RSN's if it interests people, but their inclusion/exclusion is one of the reasons I created this thread. I am open to change on just about anything in the list, other than the RSN's. They are national channels which feature regional sports. Yes, pro events are blacked out. Many other events are not however.


----------



## Satelliteracer

James Long said:


> The value of that one team RSN for content other than that blacked out is likely the same on a nationwide basis as a RSN with several teams and more blackouts. Other than blacked out shows what is on RSNs? Shows about the teams? High school sports? The "one team RSNs" need more filler. Is that filler likely to be of national interest?
> 
> The only positive I could see with the one team RSN (without a single sports package) would be the increased likelyhood of a non-blacked out replay and, as noted, college games. If the RSN fills their non-pro time with good college games it could make the channel worthwhile where a multi-team RSN would not have time for college games (too busy with the pros).
> 
> And outside the blackouts one must never forget two things: One, having the RSNs makes the games available for the pro sports packages and Two, having full time RSNs makes sure that THAT RSNs games will air in HD and not be skipped over when the carrier picks what 12 HD games will be aired at a particular time. The difference between a full-time RSN on DirecTV and the same RSN on DISH is that any game the RSN sends will be passed on by DirecTV to subscribers who are not blacked out. The same can't be said about DISH.


All depends on what you're looking for, but in my case the value of that team doesn't sell it for me. I'm a college football and college basketball nut. I watch mostly Big East basketball games because of a personal interest there. None are blacked out, plus I can see the coaches shows, the weekly conference shows, etc. Plus I can watch basically "local sports" or the area I came from to get a flavor of what is going on in my old stomping grounds. That's me. Others, who are more interested in the pro teams, will certainly find the blackouts to be a much bigger deal, no question about it...we agree.

It ultimately comes down to what the RSNs deliver for folks. For me, it's content I can see in California despite it originating from outside of California. No blackout issues for me (as my pro teams are all local except for the NFL which isn't on a RSN). So for me, they absolutely fit the national definition with zero blackouts. For others, that won't be the case.


----------



## James Long

Well, SR, your college sports needs are met as noted in my second paragraph. I'm glad that there are RSNs that carry the college teams you're interested in. And while your pro teams are delivered to you, they are not delivered nationally without further subscription. That's where those that count the blackouts against the RSNs win.

I'm happy not getting Lakers games in HD. I'm happy not getting Yankees games in HD. Quite frankly, I don't care about the Bulls, Bears, Cubs or Tigers - my local teams - but that is beside the point. I can see where someone who has to pay hundreds of dollars extra to view out of market games THEY want not considering a RSN full of holes to be 24/7 HD. But I know that if it were not for the presence of that RSN there would be next to zero hope of seeing the out of market games. So they count in my book. With the appropriate asterisk. If people want to not count them the math is simple enough.


----------



## georule

It seems to me the standard should be minimum not maximum.

I suggested it upstream --i'd really be interested to see someone canvass the RSN's for what they offer uniquely that isn't blacked out so this discussion can move beyond simple rhetoric.

I live in the "State of Hockey". People who grew up in Minnesota are very serious about their hockey, and not just NHL hockey. U Minn Gophers and even HS hockey can be near religion here. FSN North shows both. If you're a "Minnesotan in Exile" that could have a lot of value to you.

That's just the example I'm familiar with --I suspect that is nowhere near the only one.

The more of those kind of examples there are, the less tenable it is for someone to be making value judgements about it for others. 

Any time a new HD is added, there is no lack of fans of other channels to show up and p*ss and moan about how unworthy that channel is compared to what they wanted and didn't get.

It seems to me the RSN argument is the same thing.


----------



## Hoosier205

Added pie charts to the second post...just because the idea popped into my head. They may not be useful, helpful, or otherwise interesting. We'll see how long they stick around.


----------



## Syzygy

Hoosier205 said:


> Added pie charts to the second post...


Beautiful charts.

What struck me was the huge 31% of DirecTV for all RSNs, vs. just 34% for the only group that really matters to me, "Standard HD." (Maybe a part-time RSN shouldn't weigh as heavily as a full-time channel; don't they consume less bandwidth?) (For me, RSNs - except for the one serving my region - have no weight at all!)

Another thing that stood out for me was the giant orange slice of pie for DirecTV Cinema HD, representing the wasting of roughly 20% of D*'s bandwidth on overpriced and too-short-lived PPV.


----------



## James Long

Syzygy said:


> Another thing that stood out for me was the giant orange slice of pie for DirecTV Cinema HD, repesenting the wasting of roughly 20% of D*'s bandwidth on overpriced and too-short-lived PPV.


If you're looking for bandwidth you'll have to do the math differently. DirecTV shares bandwidth between Cinema HD and the part-time RSNs ... so a chart that shows both doesn't show allocation of bandwidth. If you're looking for that you'll need to look at the numbers in Sixto's thread (including unassigned space) and create a bandwidth chart.

A similar problem exists for DISH if one is looking at bandwidth. DISH has 36 RSNs and alts in the channel guide but only 12 "slots" on satellites to serve those channels. "Unassigned" is a challenge as DISH has transponders used for HD and SD mixed together on the same satellite and doesn't have a 100% consistent number of channels per transponder (most have the same number but a couple have one more).


----------



## James Long

The following is how DISH has divided their in use bandwidth for ConUS HD ...








"Basic HD" is all the channels one would get with an "HD 250 Free" subscription.
"Premium HD" is the movie channels added with an AEP subscription.
"Platinum HD" is the 16 regular and movie channels in that package.
"Pay Per View" includes the 24/7 Hustler HD channel and a single channel used for Sports PPV or DISH's 101.
"RSN" is the 12 channel capacity used for 36 RSNs and alts.
= 141 Channels/Feeds in use

Taken directly from the SixtoReport ... DirecTV bandwidth for National HD ...








* 91 - HD Networks
* 27 - HD Full-time Regional Sport Networks (RSN's)
* 8 HD DNS Locals: CBS/NBC/ABC/FOX East&West
* 37 - HD Cinema
* 2 - 3D
= 165 Channels


----------



## dcowboy7

IMO:

- i know its a rounding thing on the 0% by "provider owned channels" by directv so i would put <1% instead....0% just looks like they have 0 when they do have 1.

- i think the pie chart is too wide creating a scrollbar on the bottom of the screen on page 1....can you "fit it" onto the page to get rid of that scrollbar ? again just esthetics.

THX.


----------



## tonyd79

James Long said:


> IIRC the channels themselves are still blacked out and one must find the games on channels dedicated to the sports package in question. So to watch all of the content on a distant RSN one would have to find it across several channels that would change on a daily basis.


This would be incorrect. For DirecTV, at least, the RSN broadcast that is on EI, Center Ice, MLS, NBA are open on the RSN as well as on the package channel. That is not 100% true for games that are on the college packages. If more than one RSN is carrying a game that is on Gameplan, for instance, only one of them is opened up.

So, a Yankee fan can watch all the games on YES or YES Alternate or on the moving channel in the 700 range.


----------



## James Long

tonyd79 said:


> This would be incorrect. For DirecTV, at least, the RSN broadcast that is on EI, Center Ice, MLS, NBA are open on the RSN as well as on the package channel.


That's good ... it makes the game easier to find on the home RSN.


----------



## QuickDrop

Satelliteracer said:


> It ultimately comes down to what the RSNs deliver for folks. For me, it's content I can see in California despite it originating from outside of California. No blackout issues for me (as my pro teams are all local except for the NFL which isn't on a RSN). So for me, they absolutely fit the national definition with zero blackouts. For others, that won't be the case.


This is in the running for my favorite excuse for considering RSNs (as DirecTV provides them) to be 24/7 National HD channels. If there is a black out and I don't turn on the channel at that time, the black-out essentially does not exist. This brings up interesting possibilities. I can consider DirecTV to be carrying AMC HD, BBCA HD, etc and as long as I don't attempt to watch the channels it must be true.



 Hoosier205 said:


> We can discuss the RSN's if it interests people, but their inclusion/exclusion is one of the reasons I created this thread. I am open to change on just about anything in the list, other than the RSN's. They are national channels which feature regional sports. Yes, pro events are blacked out. Many other events are not however.


It's good to know that the OP is more willing to listen to arguments that TNT HD, USA HD, or ESPN HD should not be considered "National HD" channels than FSN Cincinnati. Shows you the real reason for the list. Someone couldn't stand the idea that many people don't consider nationally provided, black-out prone, RSNs to be true national channels and had to make an "official" list where RSNs were the most sacred national channels. It seems like another example of someone using a perceived bias to excuse an obvious, and clearly stated bias.

DirecTV's website already carries that kind of list and doesn't confuse the argument any further by including part-time RSNs and RSN Alternative channels.


----------



## sigma1914

QuickDrop said:


> This is in the running for my favorite excuse for considering RSNs (as DirecTV provides them) to be 24/7 National HD channels. If there is a black out and I don't turn on the channel at that time, the black-out essentially does not exist. This brings up interesting possibilities. I can consider DirecTV to be carrying AMC HD, BBCA HD, etc and as long as I don't attempt to watch the channels it must be true.
> 
> It's good to know that the OP is more willing to listen to arguments that TNT HD, USA HD, or ESPN HD should not be considered "National HD" channels than FSN Cincinnati. Shows you the real reason for the list. Someone couldn't stand the idea that many people don't consider nationally provided, black-out prone, RSNs to be true national channels and had to make an "official" list where RSNs were the most sacred national channels. It seems like another example of someone using a perceived bias to excuse an obvious, and clearly stated bias.
> 
> DirecTV's website already carries that kind of list and doesn't confuse the argument any further by including part-time RSNs and RSN Alternative channels.


So, your way of not counting RSNs as HD isn't biased? Some RSNs are in HD 24/7, should they be ignored? RSNs count for the list, you seem unhappy, make your own list!


----------



## Hoosier205

QuickDrop said:


> This is in the running for my favorite excuse for considering RSNs (as DirecTV provides them) to be 24/7 National HD channels. If there is a black out and I don't turn on the channel at that time, the black-out essentially does not exist. This brings up interesting possibilities. I can consider DirecTV to be carrying AMC HD, BBCA HD, etc and as long as I don't attempt to watch the channels it must be true.
> 
> It's good to know that the OP is more willing to listen to arguments that TNT HD, USA HD, or ESPN HD should not be considered "National HD" channels than FSN Cincinnati. Shows you the real reason for the list. Someone couldn't stand the idea that many people don't consider nationally provided, black-out prone, RSNs to be true national channels and had to make an "official" list where RSNs were the most sacred national channels. It seems like another example of someone using a perceived bias to excuse an obvious, and clearly stated bias.
> 
> DirecTV's website already carries that kind of list and doesn't confuse the argument any further by including part-time RSNs and RSN Alternative channels.


Just a few things:

1. You missed Satelliteracer's point. No one is pretending a blackout doesn't happen if they don't tune to that channel. He relies on RSN's for collegiate sports...which are not blacked. Pro sports are blacked out, a very large amount of collegiate sports are not. RSN's provide a ton of non-blacked out regional content, nationally in HD. Therefore, RSN's are national HD channels.

2. Who is talking about regarding TNT, USA, and ESPN? No one is arguing over their status.

3. RSN's are no more sacred than any other channel. The purpose of this list is to count all HD channels, not just certain HD channels.

This thread isn't here for us to attack and complain about each other. If we include everything, leaving no stone un-turned, there should be no complaints. Let's all just get along and play nice. If folks prefer a less inclusive comparison list, there are others out there.

I am not simply doing this for myself. This is for every member here and anyone else who may come across it. Everyone has been extremely supportive and helpful. This has been a very nonpartisan thread and I hope we can keep it that way.

Thank you for your input. Let's make this the best list we can for DirecTV and Dish Network customers.


----------



## QuickDrop

sigma1914 said:


> So, your way of not counting RSNs as HD isn't biased? Some RSNs are in HD 24/7, should they be ignored? RSNs count for the list, you seem unhappy, make your own list!


Here's what I've already said in this thread:



QuickDrop said:


> As for RSNs as it applies to the way the OP counts them, I have no problem including them as long as they are separated out, which the OP does.
> 
> I do think that (possible) full time RSNs and part time RSNs should be kept separate. I question whether either should be included in the full channels count since they are unique to even premium channels because you have to subscribe to several packages to make them resemble full time channels. At the very least, there should be footnotes to explain what is required to make "full time RSNs" "full time" since it's not as simple as just subscribing to them.


----------



## Hoosier205

I am considering removing "Cinema" from the total count...if enough people would agree to that happening.


----------



## Syzygy

Good idea! I think even those who are inclined to buy PPV quickly realize that $5-6 for 24 hours' rental of a movie is not a good deal.


----------



## Hoosier205

I am also thinking of listing (but not counting) which networks each provider delivers HD VOD from. (such as MTV, Discovery, TLC, Showtime, etc.) I can gather the info on the offerings from DirecTV, but I need a volunteer on the Dish Network side to provide that info.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> I am considering removing "Cinema" from the total count...if enough people would agree to that happening.


Removing Cinema ... but leaving part time RSNs that on DirecTV bump Cinema slots when active and on DISH can never be all active at the same time?

It would be better to go the other way ... count Cinema but not part time sports channels. That way you'll be closer to a "live" channel count. (Number of channels an "I paid for it all and live where I can legally get all channels" viewer can choose from.)

If you're dropping Cinema but not part time RSNs you're not getting closer to an "accurate" count.


----------



## Hoosier205

I haven't made up my mind yet, but my view of the lineup comparison is that it is a count of total HD channels...whether they be part-time or full-time. Alternate and part-time RSN's are often important. If we don't count them, Dish will be left with none whatsoever. Obviously they have them, but they are game only. I don't want to penalize DirecTV for only lighting some of them up when needed, and I don't want to penalize Dish for lacking the capacity to light them all up at once. They have them, they can use them. 

Cinema HD come and go as needed for various purposes. They are constantly in flux. Alternate and part-time RSN's are a different story. They are always there and ready to go when needed. While they may not be turned on, they are available for use in a different way than Cinema HD. 

HD VOD is another story. I'm not talking about PPV, but network VOD in HD. Right now, DirecTV has the following listed:

HDNet
The 101
CNN
HGTV
Food
Style
E!
HSN
Spike
USA
Syfy
TNT
truTV
TBS
FX
ComedyC
Oxygen
Lifetime
AMC
TCM
FMC
We tv
BBCA
A&E
History
Logo
Bravo
Ovation
NatGeo
Travel
Discovery
TLC
Animal Planet
Science
Green
Sprout
Cartoon
Boomerang
Nick
Nick Jr.
Teen Nick
G4
CMT
BET
MTV
MTV2
VH1
VH1 CL
Gospel
Fuse
Bloomburg
Weather
Univision
tr3s
Starz
Encore
Showtime
SHOFree
TMC
Flix
Sundance
IFC Free
HDNet Movies
Smithsonian
Uncut TV
Juicy
Seduxxx
Hustler
VS
Speed
Big Ten
Fuel TV
EuroCin
Film Fest
Martha
n3D

Now, obviously...not all of these offer HD VOD. Some do, many do not. The more I think about it, the more I think it may be too difficult to list them. HD offerings come and go from one network to another. While a network like TLC may have 2 episodes of a show in HD available this week, they may not have any next week. There may just be too much turnover to keep track of.

We'll give it a few days and see how it all shakes out before any changes are made. It would be nice if some more Dish folks would take an interest and provide some feedback. Most everyone here right now is a DirecTV sub and while they have been extremely fair-minded, I don't want it to get out of whack.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> Cinema HD come and go as needed for various purposes. They are constantly in flux. Alternate and part-time RSN's are a different story. They are always there and ready to go when needed. While they may not be turned on, they are available for use in a different way than Cinema HD.


That is pretty much backwards. While DirecTV does pull channels from PPV as needed for part-time RSNs the PPV channels are the ones that are there and in use most of the time. The alternate/part-time RSNs are the channels that are placeholders waiting for content - of no use unless a game is on.

Thanks for your concern for DISH's count, but if they want their 36 RSNs and alternates to count they need to back those channels with serious bandwidth. No gimmies.

If you want to drop 37 PPVs and count 32 part-time channels on the DirecTV side and drop 21 PPVs and count 36 part-time channels on the DISH side I suppose you can. But I can't agree with the results. It undercuts real channels while inflating both counts.

BTW: DISH's 21 PPV channels are backed with bandwidth. They are one channel per movie and are not "taken away" for other uses. They don't "come and go".



> Now, obviously...not all of these offer HD VOD. Some do, many do not. The more I think about it, the more I think it may be too difficult to list them. HD offerings come and go from one network to another. While a network like TLC may have 2 episodes of a show in HD available this week, they may not have any next week. There may just be too much turnover to keep track of.


There is no easy way of tracking the sources of DISH VOD content. There are thousands of TV shows and movies available but no organization by channel/provider. And, as you note, content varies. If it were consistent content it would be easier to track.


----------



## Hoosier205

We are going to have a count which is inclusive rather than exclusive. No one is padding the numbers in favor of either provider. If it's an HD channel, it counts. No favoritism for providers. RSN's (of any status) are not in question, they count. Cinema/PPV are the only issue at this point and for many of the same reasons why HD VOD likely cannot be accurately counted.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> We are going to have a count which is inclusive rather than exclusive. No one is padding the numbers in favor of either provider. If it's an HD channel, it counts. No favoritism for providers. RSN's (of any status) are not in question, they count. Cinema/PPV are the only issue at this point and for many of the same reasons why HD VOD likely cannot be accurately counted.


So to create your "inclusive not exclusive" count you are willing to exclude 58 HD channels that both DBS providers count? That sounds exclusive.

BTW: While you are unwilling to question the counting of "RSN's (of any status)" don't forget that others DO question the validity of counting RSNs, including the keepers of the list that your list was inspired by. If you want to be "inclusive not exclusive" and count "RSN's (of any status)" you need to avoid excluding the PPV channels. Otherwise the list becomes another "exclusive not inclusive" list ... just with a different category excluded.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> So to create your "inclusive not exclusive" count you are willing to exclude 58 HD channels that both DBS providers count? That sounds exclusive.
> 
> BTW: While you are unwilling to question the counting of "RSN's (of any status)" don't forget that others DO question the validity of counting RSNs, including the keepers of the list that your list was inspired by. If you want to be "inclusive not exclusive" and count "RSN's (of any status)" you need to avoid excluding the PPV channels. Otherwise the list becomes another "exclusive not inclusive" list ... just with a different category excluded.


HD Channels are HD channels (if broadcast).

I don't get a number of premium movie channels, yet they *exist* for those who do subscribe. Pretending they are not there is not accurate either.

Much to do about nothing.


----------



## James Long

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I don't get a number of premium movie channels, yet they *exist* for those who do subscribe. Pretending they are not there is not accurate either.


On the question of whether or not to count PPVs. Your post supports counting PPVs: One cannot pretend that PPVs don't exist simply because they cost extra money to view. Right?

BTW: I'm not pretending about DISH's RSNs ... most are not there. Pointing 36 channels at the capacity for 12 is not carrying 36 channels. At their best moment DISH has 24 dead RSNs/alts pointing at a slate cheerfully telling viewers to check back for their game. Most days there are less than 12 channels in use. It isn't a question of not having a subscription to view all of DISH's RSNs ... they simply are not there to view. Not transmitted. No subscription possible can deliver channels not transmitted. If one counts part-time channels with no bandwidth one might as well count the NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL/MLS mirrors ... all those channels are doing are pointing multiple "channels" at the same content feeds. Count them once if you must acknowledge the "capacity". But 36 times? That's inflation.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> So to create your "inclusive not exclusive" count you are willing to exclude 58 HD channels that both DBS providers count? That sounds exclusive.
> 
> BTW: While you are unwilling to question the counting of "RSN's (of any status)" don't forget that others DO question the validity of counting RSNs, including the keepers of the list that your list was inspired by. If you want to be "inclusive not exclusive" and count "RSN's (of any status)" you need to avoid excluding the PPV channels. Otherwise the list becomes another "exclusive not inclusive" list ... just with a different category excluded.


I don't really care if cable co subscribers don't want to count RSN's and that is exactly what is happening at AVS. They want to level the playing field in favor of those providers. Luckily, we don't have to worry about that here.

I agree with your last point. That is why I have said before that it is better to count everything than to leave something out.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> On the question of whether or not to count PPVs. Your post supports counting PPVs: One cannot pretend that PPVs don't exist simply because they cost extra money to view. Right?
> 
> BTW: I'm not pretending about DISH's RSNs ... most are not there. Pointing 36 channels at the capacity for 12 is not carrying 36 channels. At their best moment DISH has 24 dead RSNs/alts pointing at a slate cheerfully telling viewers to check back for their game. Most days there are less than 12 channels in use. It isn't a question of not having a subscription to view all of DISH's RSNs ... they simply are not there to view. Not transmitted. No subscription possible can deliver channels not transmitted. If one counts part-time channels with no bandwidth one might as well count the NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL/MLS mirrors ... all those channels are doing are pointing multiple "channels" at the same content feeds. Count them once if you must acknowledge the "capacity". But 36 times? That's inflation.


Does Dish Network have carriage deals for 26 part-time RSN's and 10 alternate RSN's? Are they live when possible and/or necessary? If so, they count. That's not inflation...that's just accurately counting what is offered. There's no need to make this more complicated than it needs to be.


----------



## Sixto

Not sure what the point is to debate "one" HD count for a provider. Each individual household usually has their own interpretation of each category of HD, so best to just list the totals for each category with the proper description.

Personally, IMHO, the Cinema HD slots are very important, and provide DirecTV with national 24x7 bandwidth that is very creatively utilized, and provides competitive advantage that should be documented and highlighted.

Most days it provides Cinema Movies, most nights/weekends it provides HD sports, during the NFL season it provides every NFL game in HD, and during events (Golf, Tennis, Election, ...) it provides multiple HD channels of special coverage in HD.

Again, IMHO, the Cinema HD bandwidth is a major advantage and certainly well utilized. Folks can decide that they don't care about any of the above, just as they can also decide that they're not interested in any other HD channel, but it's still all available 24x7 to every customer (in the appropriate package).

Different strokes for different folks.


----------



## Hoosier205

Sixto said:


> Not sure what the point is to debate "one" HD count for a provider. Each individual household usually has their own interpretation of each category of HD, so best to just list the totals for each category with the proper description.
> 
> Personally, IMHO, the Cinema HD slots are very important, and provide DirecTV with national 24x7 bandwidth that is very creatively utilized, and provides competitive advantage that should be documented and highlighted.
> 
> Most days it provides Cinema Movies, most nights/weekends it provides HD sports, during the NFL season it provides every NFL game in HD, and during events (Golf, Tennis, Election, ...) it provides multiple HD channels of special coverage in HD.
> 
> Again, IMHO, the Cinema HD bandwidth is a major advantage and certainly well utilized. Folks can decide that they don't care about any of the above, just as they can also decide that they're not interested in any other HD channel, but it's still all available 24x7 to every customer (in the appropriate package).
> 
> Different strokes for different folks.


Thank you for your feedback on the topic. Very much appreciated.


----------



## Hoosier205

What I would like to hear (and I know James has tried to explain this and perhaps he can again) is how Dish Network uses their Cinema HD compared to how DirecTV does. If only for my own curiosity because I am a bit fuzzy on that. My Dish Network experience is long behind me now and I don't remember much about that aspect.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> Does Dish Network have carriage deals for 26 part-time RSN's and 10 alternate RSN's? Are they live when possible and/or necessary? If so, they count. That's not inflation...that's just accurately counting what is offered. There's no need to make this more complicated than it needs to be.


Having a deal to carry some of a channel's content some of the time is not a deal to carry the channel itself. Otherwise you need to add AMC HD to DirecTV's carriage list ... since they carry some of AMC's content on channel 101.

DISH does not even come close to carrying every HD game on the HD sports channels it claims to carry. When questioned about the missing games DISH's reply is that the games are not available in HD. Since the games in question are airing in HD on DirecTV and other providers one of two conclusions can be drawn: 1) DISH has chosen not to air those games or 2) DISH does not have permission to air those games. In either case, giving DISH full credit for DELIVERING content that they can not and are not delivering is being too generous.

It is probably best not to provide a definitive number to compare the two systems because of the intense debate over PPVs and RSNs ... but if you are going to pull anything from the count pull part-time RSNs - not PPVs. A count including part-time RSNs and no PPVs would be less accurate than one with only full time channels (including PPVs).


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> Having a deal to carry some of a channel's content some of the time is not a deal to carry the channel itself. Otherwise you need to add AMC HD to DirecTV's carriage list ... since they carry some of AMC's content on channel 101.
> 
> DISH does not even come close to carrying every HD game on the HD sports channels it claims to carry. When questioned about the missing games DISH's reply is that the games are not available in HD. Since the games in question are airing in HD on DirecTV and other providers one of two conclusions can be drawn: 1) DISH has chosen not to air those games or 2) DISH does not have permission to air those games. In either case, giving DISH full credit for DELIVERING content that they can not and are not delivering is being too generous.
> 
> It is probably best not to provide a definitive number to compare the two systems because of the intense debate over PPVs and RSNs ... but if you are going to pull anything from the count pull part-time RSNs - not PPVs. A count including part-time RSNs and no PPVs would be less accurate than one with only full time channels (including PPVs).


You cannot compare a deal to carry very limited content on the 101 to a deal to carry the actual channel.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Not sure what the point is to debate "one" HD count for a provider. Each individual household usually has their own interpretation of each category of HD, so best to just list the totals for each category with the proper description.


Exactly.

Any channel count debate is nothing more than a regurgitation of the marketing spin.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> What I would like to hear (and I know James has tried to explain this and perhaps he can again) is how Dish Network uses their Cinema HD compared to how DirecTV does. If only for my own curiosity because I am a bit fuzzy on that. My Dish Network experience is long behind me now and I don't remember much about that aspect.


DISH Network has 21 channels running HD movies - Channels 502-522 - One channel per movie with all day pricing. Movies repeat at the nearest half hour after each airing. These channels are not taken down or used for any other purpose.

DirecTV has 37 similar channels - Channels 125-161 - although some movies are shown on multiple channels and PPV channels are taken down as needed for use as part-time sports channels or HD mix channels.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> You cannot compare a deal to carry very limited content on the 101 to a deal to carry the actual channel.


That is the point when you want to count DISH's part time RSNs. Does counting very limited content shown on shared bandwidth make any more sense just because it is sports?

Full-time RSNs? Great ... count them. They are in Premier on DirecTV and despite blackouts are available to someone somewhere. DISH's RSNs? Not so much.


----------



## James Long

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Any channel count debate is nothing more than a regurgitation of the marketing spin.


We try to be more rational than that.


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> Personally, IMHO, the Cinema HD slots are very important, and provide DirecTV with national 24x7 bandwidth that is very creatively utilized, and provides competitive advantage that should be documented and highlighted.
> 
> Most days it provides Cinema Movies, most nights/weekends it provides HD sports, during the NFL season it provides every NFL game in HD, and during events (Golf, Tennis, Election, ...) it provides multiple HD channels of special coverage in HD.


Right ... and that's why I keep PPVs in the count (when I count). But since these channels are the ones used for part-time RSNs I see no reason to count them twice in a "grand total".


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> We try to be more rational than that.


*We* meaning *a few *folks, of course....


----------



## damondlt

I would like a Printable list.


----------



## harsh

damondlt said:


> I would like a Printable list.


Anything that is printed is likely outdated.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> Anything that is printed is likely outdated.


Printable != printed. Printable can be updated as needed and printed at will.
damondlt expressed a preference for a format that might better fit a printed page.


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> damondlt expressed a preference for a format that might better fit a printed page.


Given the substantial number of qualifications, caveats, footnotes and the dynamic nature of the data itself, maintaining a "printable" version is no small feat.

Lots of people have ideas but too many seem to want them applied by someone else.


----------



## Syzygy

A dynamically changing chart like this Channel Lineup Comparison is something I wouldn't want to print.


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> Lots of people have ideas but too many seem to want them applied by someone else.


The alternative is to have everyone make their own lists instead of accepting the work of others. We seem to be doing that for counting just not for presentation.



Syzygy said:


> A dynamically changing chart like this Channel Lineup Comparison is something I wouldn't want to print.


Nor I ... but I wouldn't rule out printing. It is hard to present the data to off-line folks when it is six or nine printed pages. (Also for page design it is easier to read on screen when one can see more of the list on screen.)

As for the dynamics ... when was the last change? While there is a potential of the list changing every day (or every Wednesday) it really doesn't change that often.


----------



## dcowboy7

AVS has their monthly updated thread chart out.

Are you gonna put the link to this chart in that thread like last month or was that a 1 time only deal ?

*edit*:
guess it was a 1 time only deal.


----------



## damondlt

James Long said:


> Printable != printed. Printable can be updated as needed and printed at will.
> damondlt expressed a preference for a format that might better fit a printed page.


 Yes, I want to be able to print it. 
If it Updates I'll print it again. Unless Harsh has a problem with that?

Is there a way I could Print this out?


----------



## damondlt

James Long said:


> The alternative is to have everyone make their own lists instead of accepting the work of others. We seem to be doing that for counting just not for presentation.
> 
> Nor I ... but I wouldn't rule out printing. It is hard to present the data to off-line folks when it is six or nine printed pages. (Also for page design it is easier to read on screen when one can see more of the list on screen.)
> 
> .


 Exactly, its hard to do a proper compairison when you can't look at all the pages as a whole. Scrolling down isn't a good way to get a proper view. Its fine for a quick reference, But not as in a proper research value.

If you don't have one fine, I just thought I'd ask.

So AVS has one?


----------



## James Long

damondlt said:


> If you don't have one fine, I just thought I'd ask.
> 
> So AVS has one?


Not that I know of but I really have not looked. I generally keep my own lists ... which could be printed from my website but there is information at the bottom of the page that goes beyond the list in this thread.

My initial thought was to take the image and print it ... which should be an easy thing to do although using the image may cut a channel in half. About the only way I see to do a nicely formatted presentation is to do yet another version of the list. One more list seems like yet another reason for people to argue over counts. But I suppose if you want something concise ...

Enjoy.


----------



## damondlt

James Long said:


> Not that I know of but I really have not looked. I generally keep my own lists ... which could be printed from my website but there is information at the bottom of the page that goes beyond the list in this thread.
> 
> My initial thought was to take the image and print it ... which should be an easy thing to do although using the image may cut a channel in half. About the only way I see to do a nicely formatted presentation is to do yet another version of the list. One more list seems like yet another reason for people to argue over counts. But I suppose if you want something concise ...
> 
> Enjoy.


 Ok cool, Thanks.


----------



## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Not that I know of but I really have not looked. I generally keep my own lists ... which could be printed from my website but there is information at the bottom of the page that goes beyond the list in this thread.
> 
> My initial thought was to take the image and print it ... which should be an easy thing to do although using the image may cut a channel in half. About the only way I see to do a nicely formatted presentation is to do yet another version of the list. One more list seems like yet another reason for people to argue over counts. But I suppose if you want something concise ...
> 
> Enjoy.


Way cool. You put a lot of work into this.
Thanks


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sony Movie Channel on E* is really expensive. It cost them FX, Nat Geo, 19 FSN affiliates, MSG and MSG Plus. I'm sure glad I got D*. I'll take local sports and original shows over old movies any day.


----------



## sigma1914

I guess you can remove FX, Nat Geo, and some FSNs from Dish's side.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

sigma1914 said:


> I guess you can remove FX, Nat Geo, and some FSNs from Dish's side.


Plus MSG and MSG Plus (or did they reach a resolution?)


----------



## sigma1914

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Plus MSG and MSG Plus (or did they reach a resolution?)


I bet they'll never get those.


----------



## James Long

sigma1914 said:


> I guess you can remove FX, Nat Geo, and some FSNs from Dish's side.


OK ... but add Sony.


Coca Cola Kid said:


> Plus MSG and MSG Plus (or did they reach a resolution?)


DISH didn't have those in HD.

It has only been a couple of days ... so noted but not pulled since they will be back.

[EDIT: See update for new attachment.]


----------



## sigma1914

James Long said:


> OK ... but add Sony.
> DISH didn't have those in HD.
> 
> It has only been a couple of days ... so noted but not pulled since they will be back.


Add Sony on Directv this Wednesday or next.


----------



## James Long

sigma1914 said:


> Add Sony on Directv this Wednesday or next.


Channel number and subscription level lready noted in the file (although I forgot to pull the footnote).
When DirecTV makes up their mind the channel won't be red. 

BTW: ATT UVerse is listed as having Sony Movie Channel on the SMC website.


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## James Long

BTW: MegaTV HD hasn't made the graphic yet either. (It made my lists.)


----------



## Hoosier205

This list will be updated tomorrow.

EDIT: I will update it tonight. I had planned on getting to it this afternoon, but I won't have access to the proper version of Excel until later.


----------



## Hoosier205

I am not sure if I should remove channels which have been taken down during a carriage dispute or not. I am leaning towards removing them until there is a resolution, but I am open to suggestions. Thoughts?


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> I am not sure if I should remove channels which have been taken down during a carriage dispute or not. I am leaning towards removing them until there is a resolution, but I am open to suggestions. Thoughts?


I'd note them but not remove them. The disputes are temporary ... the channels will be back. I'd treat them like part time channels ... carriage space reserved but just no content carried at this time.

For longer disputes (several months, not a few days) where there is no negotiation underway removal seems fair. But on channels where there is an active dispute the channel should not be removed.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> I'd note them but not remove them. The disputes are temporary ... the channels will be back. I'd treat them like part time channels ... carriage space reserved but just no content carried at this time.
> 
> For longer disputes (several months, not a few days) where there is no negotiation underway removal seems fair. But on channels where there is an active dispute the channel should not be removed.


Sounds good to me. That makes sense. I will work out a way to do that.


----------



## lparsons21

James Long said:


> I'd note them but not remove them. The disputes are temporary ... the channels will be back. I'd treat them like part time channels ... carriage space reserved but just no content carried at this time.
> 
> For longer disputes (several months, not a few days) where there is no negotiation underway removal seems fair. But on channels where there is an active dispute the channel should not be removed.


I would agree with this. Seems a fair way to make the comparison as there will most likely be more of this as the content providers get more aggressive.


----------



## GrumpyBear

James Long said:


> I'd note them but not remove them. The disputes are temporary ... the channels will be back. I'd treat them like part time channels ... carriage space reserved but just no content carried at this time.
> 
> For longer disputes (several months, not a few days) where there is no negotiation underway removal seems fair. But on channels where there is an active dispute the channel should not be removed.


Because you were asking for feedback. I totally agree with this. Maybe a different color or obvious note to show HD stations that are in dispute. It should be clearly noted so its easy to tell.


----------



## mnassour

Hoosier205 said:


> Sounds good to me. That makes sense. I will work out a way to do that.


Perhaps you could leave the color the same, but just put an "X" over the box?


----------



## Hoosier205

mnassour said:


> Perhaps you could leave the color the same, but just put an "X" over the box?


Good idea. I will play around with a few different options tonight and see how it works out.


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## Hoosier205

The list has been updated. Added MegaTV HD for DirecTV. Added Sony HD for Dish (I'll wait for DirecTV until we hear something official). Altered the status of those channels involved in disputes.


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## Coca Cola Kid

Hoosier205 said:


> The list has been updated. Added MegaTV HD for DirecTV. Added Sony HD for Dish (I'll wait for DirecTV until we hear something official). Altered the status of those channels involved in disputes.


E* is in a "temporary contract dispute" for NFLST? Uh no, D* has the exclusive contract until at least 2014. Nascar Hot Pass is exclusive to D* too, I'm not sure when the contract expires. and E* hasn't carried MLBEI since 2006, pretty long dispute to be considered "temporary".


----------



## Hoosier205

Coca Cola Kid said:


> E* is in a "temporary contract dispute" for NFLST? Uh no, D* has the exclusive contract until at least 2014. Nascar Hot Pass is exclusive to D* too, I'm not sure when the contract expires. and E* hasn't carried MLBEI since 2006, pretty long dispute to be considered "temporary".


Hmm...something went wrong there. Thanks. I hadn't noticed it. I'll fix it right now.


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## Hoosier205

Fixed. Thank you to Coca Cola Kid for pointing that out.


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## Hoosier205

Just a reminder for as many people as possible to place a link to this thread in their signature. It will help increase participation and direct new members here so they can use it as a resource.


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## James Long

Updated with today's new HD on DirecTV (162-165 PPV HD).

[See updated attachment in next post.]


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## James Long

Updated with Sony Movie Channel making it's appearance on DirecTV.
[See updated PDF version in new post.]


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## Hoosier205

I will update the chart tonight to add the five additional DirecTV HD channels. (4 Cinema and 1 Sony Movie Channel)


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## BigRedFan

Hi Hoosier... great job on the Chart !....

Am I reading it correctly in Post # 1 that 2 HD networks are still missing ? 

1. Univision-HD (carried by both DTV and DISH)
2. TeleFutura West-HD (carried by both DTV and DISH) 

I had mentioned this earlier and you had said it was going to be corrected... Is there an "updated" version to Post # 1 that shows the correction ?...

Either way, amazing work... very happy to see a much more complete and truthful analysis than the Chart in AV Science Forum (with all its arbitrary exclusions of hybrid national networks, RSN's, etc.) ....

Cheers !


----------



## Hoosier205

So...the list didn't get updated last night. ALCS+Beer=me not getting to it. I'll take care of it tonight however.


----------



## Hoosier205

BigRedFan said:


> Hi Hoosier... great job on the Chart !....
> 
> Am I reading it correctly in Post # 1 that 2 HD networks are still missing ?
> 
> 1. Univision-HD (carried by both DTV and DISH)
> 2. TeleFutura West-HD (carried by both DTV and DISH)
> 
> I had mentioned this earlier and you had said it was going to be corrected... Is there an "updated" version to Post # 1 that shows the correction ?...
> 
> Either way, amazing work... very happy to see a much more complete and truthful analysis than the Chart in AV Science Forum (with all its arbitrary exclusions of hybrid national networks, RSN's, etc.) ....
> 
> Cheers !


Thanks. I missed them. I've updated the list and I am about to upload it.


----------



## Hoosier205

Just a note to anyone who may be new to this thread: The channels involved in the Dish/Fox dispute are not currently being counted. Their place in the count will be restored in the count as soon as an agreement has been reached. Please don't take offense...we just don't know how long they are going to be gone so it was easier to remove them from the the count temporarily (hopefully).


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> Just a note to anyone who may be new to this thread: The channels involved in the Dish/Fox dispute are not currently being counted. Their place in the count will be restored in the count as soon as an agreement has been reached. Please don't take offense...we just don't know how long they are going to be gone so it was easier to remove them from the the count temporarily (hopefully).


Just a clarification ... "we" is royal in this use. While the occasional question has been asked as to what counts and what doesn't count the decision of what is on that chart and how they are counted rest with the author of the chart.

No count (including mine) should be considered the official count of DBSTalk.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> Just a clarification ... "we" is royal in this use. While the occasional question has been asked as to what counts and what doesn't count the decision of what is on that chart and how they are counted rest with the author of the chart.
> 
> *No count (including mine) should be considered the official count of DBSTalk*.


I suspect that never entered the minds of most folks.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> Just a clarification ... "we" is royal in this use. While the occasional question has been asked as to what counts and what doesn't count the decision of what is on that chart and how they are counted rest with the author of the chart.


The word, "we" was only used once in my post:



> Please don't take offense...*we *just don't know how long they are going to be gone so it was easier to remove them from the the count temporarily (hopefully).


That is an accurate statement. _We_ don't know how long those channels will be gone. We...as in anyone who does not have direct knowledge of any progress being made in the negotiations between Dish Network and Fox. "We" was not used in a way which in implies that I speak on behalf of anyone else. Obviously, I do not. I thought that was pretty clear, but sorry for the confusion.


----------



## James Long

As long as it is clear on who's count it is. The inference in the sentence was that "we" removed them from the count. "... so it was easier _for me_ to remove them from the the count temporarily (hopefully)" would be a clearer statement. Otherwise the "we" carries over.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> As long as it is clear on who's count it is. The inference in the sentence was that "we" removed them from the count. "... so it was easier _for me_ to remove them from the the count temporarily (hopefully)" would be a clearer statement. Otherwise the "we" carries over.


Yes, the count is mine and is part of a collaborative effort among those involved in this thread. I think we are all clear on that now.


----------



## Hoosier205

Updated due to the Dish Network - Fox Broadcasting dispute resolution.


----------



## James Long

PDF version updated to remove the clutter of Fox channels marked unavailable and add the channel number for ShortsHD 568 (apparently coming in November to DirecTV).

[Updated for November 1st below.]


----------



## CoolGui

Some corrections:

Dish network has Direct Kick, some games are HD I believe, but I have no way to compare to DirecTV:
http://www.dishnetwork.com/packages/ppv/sports/soccer/default.aspx

Dish has Showtime Beyond, TMC Xtra, and Sundance Channel in HD:
http://www.dishnetwork.com/premiums/default.aspx

Retroplex and Indieplex really should be up in the same category as ShortsHD is, as they both come with ultimate HD. Also Encore HD is available on the Top 250, it's not always a premium... anyway that's probably not a huge deal.

Supposedly dish has Hustler HD too, but I don't see anyway to confirm that...

Also I feel like the regional sports and alt. regional sports are misleading. Dish carries the games part time like DirecTV, they just don't have a fixed channel number. This inflates the DirecTV number and diminishes the Dish number. Honestly I would rather have a fixed number, but that's a niggling complaint, not sure it belongs here. For example you have FSHouston red, but I get nearly all the FSHouston games in HD.

I have to admit I was using the dish website for some of these because I don't have the premiums anymore, errors on their website certainly are not unheard of...


----------



## sigma1914

CoolGui said:


> ...
> 
> Also I feel like the regional sports and alt. regional sports are misleading. *Dish carries the games part time like DirecTV, they just don't have a fixed channel number. * This inflates the DirecTV number and diminishes the Dish number. Honestly I would rather have a fixed number, but that's a niggling complaint, not sure it belongs here. For example you have FSHouston red, but I get nearly all the FSHouston games in HD.
> ...


No, they aren't alike. FSSW is in HD 24/7 on DirecTV & every game that's in HD will be HD, whereas with Dish you might get the game in HD if there's space.


----------



## James Long

CoolGui said:


> Supposedly dish has Hustler HD too, but I don't see anyway to confirm that...


It is on DISH Network's website under Pay Per View. $13.99 for 90 minutes (the SD is separate can be subscribed monthly).


----------



## James Long

CoolGui said:


> Dish has Showtime Beyond, TMC Xtra, and Sundance Channel in HD:


Nope. Website error.


----------



## CoolGui

sigma1914 said:


> No, they aren't alike. FSSW is in HD 24/7 on DirecTV & every game that's in HD will be HD, whereas with Dish you might get the game in HD if there's space.


Well I didn't actually mention FSSW, he has them listed as fulltime... I was actually talking about the ones listed as part time on DirecTV and not at all on Dish, my example was FSHouston.

And it looks like I was wrong about some of the others since I was basing it on the error laden dish network site. I didn't really mean to nitpick I just thought I saw things that didn't look right to me.


----------



## bobl

Hoosier-great list! I do notice a couple of corrections that are needed. There is no CSN West as it was renamed CSN California more than two years ago. You need to remove the CSN West line and change the CSN California line to being available on a part-time basis on Dish. I don't know why this issue keeps popping up whenever lists like yours are created. I've noted this issue on more than one occasion in the past. The second correction is to rename Discovery Kids to The Hub. The channel was just renamed last month.


----------



## James Long

bobl said:


> Hoosier-great list! I do notice a couple of corrections that are needed. There is no CSN West as it was renamed CSN California more than two years ago. You need to remove the CSN West line and change the CSN California line to being available on a part-time basis on Dish. I don't know why this issue keeps popping up whenever lists like yours are created.


DISH had it wrong in their guide for a while. I didn't notice the change myself when they got it right. Sorry for being one of the ones helping to perpetuate the error.


----------



## CoolGui

I've been following this chart that someone is keeping over at AVSForum that also includes cable and IPTV systems. The cable system info is spotty though as obviously they carry different channels in different markets, especially comcast. I think it looks pretty close to this list.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058081


----------



## redsoxfan26

That list doesn't include RSN's.


----------



## CoolGui

redsoxfan26 said:


> That list doesn't include RSN's.


Yep I know, but only one RSN really matters to most people... their own.  I thought it was pretty useful to me so I could also look at the coverage of other providers, even though I really only have access to Comcast outside of satellite.


----------



## GrumpyBear

CoolGui said:


> Yep I know, but only one RSN really matters to most people... their own.  I thought it was pretty useful to me so I could also look at the coverage of other providers, even though I really only have access to Comcast outside of satellite.


One thing I like about that site, is how they cut off all the filler PPV/Cinema in the counts. Plan and simple, here are the Nationals, here are the Movie channels and the Major sports packages. 
Hate all the filler HD Numbers, Everybody uses with the PPV/Cinema channels.


----------



## James Long

CoolGui said:


> I've been following this chart that someone is keeping over at AVSForum that also includes cable and IPTV systems. The cable system info is spotty though as obviously they carry different channels in different markets, especially comcast. I think it looks pretty close to this list.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058081


That thread and the exclusion of RSNs was a part of the inspiration for this thread. The author(s) at AVS have decided to track RSNs separately.

DISH counts "choices" (pretty much anything with a moving picture). DirecTV counts only 24/7 channels (which even though I am a DISH subscriber is my preference). My goal when starting a "count list" years ago was to explain where DISH and DirecTV were coming up with _their_ numbers, not to create my own. But alas every list seems to need a counter.


----------



## bobl

Just noticed another change needed to the list-why does it show full-time RSN's for Dish? As far as I know all RSN's on Dish are part-time. Am I missing something here?


----------



## James Long

bobl said:


> Just noticed another change needed to the list-why does it show full-time RSN's for Dish? As far as I know all RSN's on Dish are part-time. Am I missing something here?


You're right. It looks like Hoosier205 shaded the channels green instead of aqua when they returned last week. DISH's RSNs remain part time only (except Big Ten Network).


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> This is meant to be a fair, honest, and broad list. I would rather include as much as possible, just to be sure that all bases are covered. This thread is to be used for updates, suggestions, and general feedback. This will be a collaborative effort among all willing members. The more feedback, the better. I thought that this section of the forum would be the best location for this chart, as it is provider neutral.
> 
> *Please support this thread by including a link to it in your signature. This will encourage involvement and help direct new DBSTalk.com members to it as a resource.*
> 
> This is *NOT* a thread to attack either provider or other members. I am looking forward to positive contributions to this topic.
> 
> *NOTE:* Channels involved in ongoing disputes are in yellow and will not be counted until the dispute has been resolved.


 And Neither Dish or Direct have Mega TV. Atleast that I've seen.
Directv also has NFL RedZone in HD
Also , Dish Not 1 Fulltime RSN, Unless you count Big Ten network


----------



## Hoosier205

damondlt said:


> And Neither Dish or Direct have Mega TV. Atleast that I've seen.
> Directv also has NFL RedZone in HD


DirecTV has it on channel 405.


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> DirecTV has it on channel 405.


 Thats why I never saw it then !:lol:


----------



## damondlt

But how about Dish RSN's

They are far from Fulltime HD channels, and Since MLB EI isn't even carried on Dish, That even less HD then Part time on RSN's


----------



## Syzygy

Please, please, don't quote the entire original post! Jeez!


----------



## James Long

James Long said:


> You're right. It looks like Hoosier205 shaded the channels green instead of aqua when they returned last week. DISH's RSNs remain part time only (except Big Ten Network).


Still needing an update (light blue not green on the returned FSN channels).
Also "Subscribtion Sports Channels" needs a spell check.



Syzygy said:


> Please, please, don't quote the entire original post!


Agreed. I understand that it is hard to quote just the lines that are being referred to when it is an image, but please ... don't full quote long posts. Only quote the portion needed to understand the question/response.


----------



## carl.066

Since you include subscription channels, some of them do not have many takers. With that in mind, you might as well add the East and West Coast HD DNS channels that D* is adding this month to your list. Estimates on who gets them ranges from tens of thousands to hunderds of thousands. Depending on which SD networks you were eligible for, you will now enjoy up to eight HD channels in the 390s from BOTH coasts.
Enjoy!


----------



## bobl

Is the list going to get updated? What's the point of a list that includes many errors which don't get updated despite notes from various individuals?


----------



## Hoosier205

bobl said:


> Is the list going to get updated? What's the point of a list that includes many errors which don't get updated despite notes from various individuals?


The errors in color coding are minor and will be updated tonight. I have not had access to the files themselves for the last several days.


----------



## carl.066

Hoosier205 said:


> The errors in color coding are minor and will be updated tonight. I have not had access to the files themselves for the last several days.


Don't forget Encore East HD Channel 535, WCBS-HD Channel 390, KCBS-HD, Channel 391, WNBC-HD Channel 392, KCBS-HD Channel 393, WABC-HD Channel 396, KABC-HD Channel 397, WNYW-HD Channel 398 and KTTV-HD Channel 399.


----------



## Hoosier205

carl.066 said:


> Don't forget Encore East HD Channel 535, WCBS-HD Channel 390, KCBS-HD, Channel 391, WNBC-HD Channel 392, KCBS-HD Channel 393, WABC-HD Channel 396, KABC-HD Channel 397, WNYW-HD Channel 398 and KTTV-HD Channel 399.


Encore East HD is already listed, it just doesn't have the "East" label applied. I am thinking about adding the DNS HD channels as well, but I'm not certain about that from the Dish Network perspective. Perhaps James can answer this...does Dish offer any of them? Thanks.


----------



## carl.066

Hoosier205 said:


> Encore East HD is already listed, it just doesn't have the "East" label applied. I am thinking about adding the DNS HD channels as well, but I'm not certain about that from the Dish Network perspective. Perhaps James can answer this...does Dish offer any of them? Thanks.


No. Several years ago, Dish got their wrists slapped by the FCC for offering DNS channels to those who were not eligible. Dish shut them off to everyone, and a separate entity, All American Direct was formed and offered 
San Francisco and Atlanta major network stations on the Dish Network's EchoStar 7 satellite at 119 degrees. However, they do not currently offer them in HD. Some day, perhaps.


----------



## Hoosier205

Alright, I've fixed some things and added the DNS channels (although they are not being counted at this point). I am sure I missed a few things, but it is late.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> Encore East HD is already listed, it just doesn't have the "East" label applied. I am thinking about adding the DNS HD channels as well, but I'm not certain about that from the Dish Network perspective. Perhaps James can answer this...does Dish offer any of them? Thanks.


DirecTV lists and counts them ... if having the other provider offer them was the standard we would not be able to count full time RSNs and PPV Porn. The channel list/count would be much smaller, and equal ... just the channels both systems carry.

DISH has regained the authority to offer distants but has not made the offer to customers in most markets. Only customers in a few markets added in June have been given distants.

As far as counting I generally don't consider them national channels. The availability is extremely limited. While some customers may be grandfathered when their locals were added, people who have a network in their local market cannot add that network as a distant. When you're looking at 14 million or 18 million subscribers and only a few hundred thousand at best can legally receive the channels it is hard for me to consider them available.

In DirecTV's count (which remains in error due to their not keeping up with new channels) they count all eight distants for themselves and the four networks for DISH. Even though neither DirecTV nor DISH offers all four networks in every market and both companies are legally prohibited from offering distants to a vast majority of their customers.

I believe it is easier, and better, to give a national channel list and count and note "plus local channels or distant networks - availability varies by market".


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> DirecTV lists and counts them ... if having the other provider offer them was the standard we would not be able to count full time RSNs and PPV Porn. The channel list/count would be much smaller, and equal ... just the channels both systems carry.
> 
> DISH has regained the authority to offer distants but has not made the offer to customers in most markets. Only customers in a few markets added in June have been given distants.
> 
> As far as counting I generally don't consider them national channels. The availability is extremely limited. While some customers may be grandfathered when their locals were added, people who have a network in their local market cannot add that network as a distant. When you're looking at 14 million or 18 million subscribers and only a few hundred thousand at best can legally receive the channels it is hard for me to consider them available.
> 
> In DirecTV's count (which remains in error due to their not keeping up with new channels) they count all eight distants for themselves and the four networks for DISH. Even though neither DirecTV nor DISH offers all four networks in every market and both companies are legally prohibited from offering distants to a vast majority of their customers.
> 
> I believe it is easier, and better, to give a national channel list and count and note "plus local channels or distant networks - availability varies by market".


Thanks James. That was very helpful.


----------



## bobl

Hoosier,

You still need to fix both of the items I mentioned a few posts back. CSN West hasn't existed for over two years. It's name was changed to CSN California. You show both names in your list. You need to delete CSN West and show CSN California as being carried by Dish on a part-time basis. Also, Discovery Kids was recently renamed The Hub.


----------



## carl.066

James Long said:


> DirecTV lists and counts them ... if having the other provider offer them was the standard we would not be able to count full time RSNs and PPV Porn. The channel list/count would be much smaller, and equal ... just the channels both systems carry.
> 
> DISH has regained the authority to offer distants but has not made the offer to customers in most markets. Only customers in a few markets added in June have been given distants.
> 
> As far as counting I generally don't consider them national channels. The availability is extremely limited. While some customers may be grandfathered when their locals were added, people who have a network in their local market cannot add that network as a distant. When you're looking at 14 million or 18 million subscribers and only a few hundred thousand at best can legally receive the channels it is hard for me to consider them available.
> 
> In DirecTV's count (which remains in error due to their not keeping up with new channels) they count all eight distants for themselves and the four networks for DISH. Even though neither DirecTV nor DISH offers all four networks in every market and both companies are legally prohibited from offering distants to a vast majority of their customers.
> 
> I believe it is easier, and better, to give a national channel list and count and note "plus local channels or distant networks - availability varies by market".


It's your list and you can include whatever you want. But the fact is that some of the national channels you list are viewed by significantly fewer subs than are the eight distants.


----------



## James Long

carl.066 said:


> It's your list and you can include whatever you want. But the fact is that some of the national channels you list are viewed by significantly fewer subs than are the eight distants.


Viewed or available for subscription?

PPV HD are the most common target of such a complaint. Who watches them? But every PPV HD is available at a price to every customer. Blacked out RSNs also receive that complaint, however most blacked the content is available (for a price) to every customer.

Distant networks are NOT available at any price to the vast majority of customers. It isn't a question of the popularity of the content (which most customers get via local channels, not distants). It is a question of availability.


----------



## carl.066

James Long said:


> Viewed or available for subscription?
> 
> PPV HD are the most common target of such a complaint. Who watches them? But every PPV HD is available at a price to every customer. Blacked out RSNs also receive that complaint, however most blacked the content is available (for a price) to every customer.
> 
> Distant networks are NOT available at any price to the vast majority of customers. It isn't a question of the popularity of the content (which most customers get via local channels, not distants). It is a question of availability.


The easiest way to solve the issue is to put an asterisk on the DNS channels, saying "Not available to most subscribers".


----------



## bobl

bobl said:


> Hoosier,
> 
> You still need to fix both of the items I mentioned a few posts back. CSN West hasn't existed for over two years. It's name was changed to CSN California. You show both names in your list. You need to delete CSN West and show CSN California as being carried by Dish on a part-time basis. Also, Discovery Kids was recently renamed The Hub.


Have mentioned this twice and yet your update doesn't include these two fixes. I assume you don't care so I won't mention it again.


----------



## Hoosier205

bobl said:


> Have mentioned this twice and yet your update doesn't include these two fixes. I assume you don't care so I won't mention it again.


Let's not be overly dramatic here. I will fix them tonight. It was an error on my part. Apologies.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hoosier205 said:


> Let's not be overly dramatic here. I will fix them tonight. It was an error on my part. Apologies.


Not to worry.

Most of us know this is voluntary (and appreciated) information you provide....


----------



## bobl

Hoosier205 said:


> Let's not be overly dramatic here. I will fix them tonight. It was an error on my part. Apologies.


Not a big deal but mentioning the fix three times is my limit. I do appreciate the list you've created and maintained.


----------



## James Long

Updated for the addition of PixL HD to DISH Network and the removal of MSG/MSG+/CSN CA.

[PDF Updated]


----------



## bobl

Hate to complain but the update you just did failed to fix one of the corrections I suggested. You fixed the CSN California situation, including showing the current disputed nature for that channel, but you didn't rename Discovery Kids to The Hub. That name change ocurred a couple of months ago.


----------



## Hoosier205

bobl said:


> Hate to complain but the update you just did failed to fix one of the corrections I suggested. You fixed the CSN California situation, including showing the current disputed nature for that channel, but you didn't rename Discovery Kids to The Hub. That name change ocurred a couple of months ago.


I'll fix it. A rename of a channel that neither provider offers in HD.


----------



## bobl

Clearly, renaming a channel whiich neither provider provides in HD isn't partiularly important, however, I'm just trying to help keep the chart as accurate as possible. Seems as though what I'm saying is being taken as criticism. The only criticism is that when I've mentioned items to be fixed I've had to mention them multiple times. The bottom line is I like the chart, I appreciate your efforts and I'd just like to see it be as accurate as possible.


----------



## tivoboy

Does the lack of DNC Distant Network Coverage in HD for DISH mean that if they don't cover your local Networks in HD, you WON'T GET THEM IN HD? I'm in 22901, Charlottesville, VA and Directv doesn't offer locals, but DOES offer New York, NY feeds. I would like to switch to DISH for some foreign language programming, but don't want to lose HD NETWORKS


----------



## James Long

tivoboy said:


> Does the lack of DNC Distant Network Coverage in HD for DISH mean that if they don't cover your local Networks in HD, you WON'T GET THEM IN HD? I'm in 22901, Charlottesville, VA and Directv doesn't offer locals, but DOES offer New York, NY feeds. I would like to switch to DISH for some foreign language programming, but don't want to lose HD NETWORKS


On either system, if you have locals in SD or HD they can block you from receiving distants in HD. Stations can grant a waiver that allows people to receive distants (HD or SD) if offered by the satellite provider.

DISH does not currently offer distants other than in a few select "short markets" to fill in for missing networks. Most of these slots are being filled with SD distants but if the market is in HD the distant can be in HD.

(There is grandfathering that confuses the issue more than stated above.)


----------



## harsh

TVFool suggests that you can get all of the major networks OTA with little more than clip-on antenna (the towers are on Carter's Mountain) so that's what I would recommend. If they aren't available in HD, that may be addressed soon.

Charlottesville is DMA #183.


----------



## skatingrocker17

WDCW is not carried in HD. I have hide SD duplicates selected which is the way it was by default and the CW is SD while all of my other locals on HD. My local CW is not broadcasted so DirecTV gives of the eastern CW feed, which is SD only.

Does anyone have it in HD?


----------



## Sea bass

I really don't care about part time RSN's or PPV cinema, where it counts is in the Standard...maybe a few premiums, but for the working stiff like me...I could go for more standard HD. Dish really is kicking Direct's butt here! What gives?


----------



## harsh

Sea bass said:


> I really don't care about part time RSN's or PPV cinema, where it counts is in the Standard...maybe a few premiums, but for the working stiff like me...I could go for more standard HD. Dish really is kicking Direct's butt here! What gives?


DIRECTV has their priorities and they make no bones about them. If it isn't in line with your priorities, there are usually other (or additional) options; even for working stiffs.


----------



## Sea bass

harsh said:


> DIRECTV has their priorities and they make no bones about them. If it isn't in line with your priorities, there are usually other (or additional) options; even for working stiffs.


No bones...Other options? I see the adds, the claims of more HD than other providers...ohhh there are bones mr harsh.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> This is *NOT* a thread to attack either provider or other members. I am looking forward to positive contributions to this topic.


:backtotop


----------



## towboy123

I cannot see the image I am viewing from iPad any suggestions?


----------



## harsh

towboy123 said:


> I cannot see the image I am viewing from iPad any suggestions?


What "image" is giving you trouble?


----------



## James Long

CSN California (including Part Time HD) returned to DISH ... nothing else to talk about lately. I've updated the PDF version to include CSN California on the DISH side again.

[See update in new post.]


----------



## Satelliteracer

James Long said:


> CSN California (including Part Time HD) returned to DISH ... nothing else to talk about lately. I've updated the PDF version to include CSN California on the DISH side again.


The HD Extra Pack for D* actually has 8 channels, not 7 per the legend. Shorts is not available in SD for D*.


----------



## PWenger

Am I missing something? I thought Shorts fell through completely, and wouldn't be available in HD either?


----------



## James Long

Satelliteracer said:


> The HD Extra Pack for D* actually has 8 channels, not 7 per the legend. Shorts is not available in SD for D*.


What is the 8th channel?


----------



## James Long

James Long said:


> What is the 8th channel?


Ah ... found it. I had it marked, but apparently missed the total ... in October.


----------



## sigma1914

James Long said:


> What is the 8th channel?


Hallmark Movie 
HDNet Movies
MGM
Sony
Universal 
Smithsonian 
Crime & Investigation 
Palladia


----------



## Satelliteracer

James Long said:


> What is the 8th channel?


You'll have to update your sheet next week as well.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Whoa!


----------



## James Long

Satelliteracer said:


> You'll have to update your sheet next week as well.


Package shifts are a pain to keep track of ... even when subscribed. 

The last reupdate also moved FX to AT120 (which I had forgotten when readding CSN California) and changed "HD Platinum" to "Platinum" since DISH changed the name to "DISH Platinum" and included four SD channels (three of which are "premium" movie channels).


----------



## KK in CT

"Satelliteracer" said:


> You'll have to update your sheet next week as well.


Interesting...


----------



## maartena

Satelliteracer said:


> You'll have to update your sheet next week as well.


Is that when some more HBO in HD goes live?


----------



## James Long

maartena said:


> Is that when some more HBO in HD goes live?


This is not the place for anticipation.
There is a thread for that.


----------



## Sea bass

Satelliteracer said:


> You'll have to update your sheet next week as well.


3D additions...


----------



## James Long

3net added to DirecTV.

Attachment updated in new post.


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> 3net added to DirecTV.


I'm wondering where the disparity is between your Platinum HD count and DISH Network's. Does Platinum not include Encore Mystery, Starz Cinema and Sundance if you don't subscribe to the some premium movie package? I get that Movieplex is an SD channel in an HD package.

I'm not sure it is appropriate to have MEGA HD in there since it isn't in any of DISH Network's or DIRECTV's English language packages.


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> I'm wondering where the disparity is between your Platinum HD count and DISH Network's. Does Platinum not include Encore Mystery, Starz Cinema and Sundance if you don't subscribe to the some premium movie package? I get that Movieplex is an SD channel in an HD package.


The newly renamed "DISH Platinum" package contains 18 HD channels ... 22 channels overall. The four channels you note are not carried by DISH in HD (in any package). This is a HD channel count, not a SD list.

Subscribers to DISH Platinum get those four channels in SD regardless of their other subscriptions (as long as they meet the minimum requirements to subscribe to Platinum).



> I'm not sure it is appropriate to have MEGA HD in there since it isn't in any of DISH Network's or DIRECTV's English language packages.


It is a channel, it is broadcast in HD ... and even though DirecTV has decided to put it (along with Telefutura) in their Latino packages it is available if one is willing to spend the money. I'm comfortable having it on the list.


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> It is a channel, it is broadcast in HD ... and even though DirecTV has decided to put it (along with Telefutura) in their Latino packages it is available if one is willing to spend the money.


I suppose you could subscribe to one of the latino packages instead of one of the English language packages. Seems like quite a stretch.


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> I suppose you could subscribe to one of the latino packages instead of one of the English language packages. Seems like quite a stretch.


Those that choose to subscribe to DirecTV Optimo Mas or above can get Mega HD. There is also a $14.99 add on "EN ESPANOL" (listed under their international packages) that I believe is similar to DISH's "Latino Bonus" add on package that allows English Language subscribers to add Spanish channels to an English package.


----------



## georule

I was talking about the "passion vote" on the HD anticipation thread, and it got me thinking about what that means and how people actually make decisions based on it --like which provider?

When I went thru the process of picking between DirecTV and DISH two years ago, it was a matter of going thru the HD channel lineups and saying to myself "nice that they have this one the other fellow doesn't, but they don't have that other one which the other fellow does, and that makes it a non-starter". That's an example of what I mean by "passion vote".

Which got me thinking about the sports packages and how generally unsatisfactory it is to get a handle on that with the current metrics. It really becomes a matter of someone trying to make that decision possibly being wise enough to understand the inferred implication of full-time RSNs vs part-time RSNs. That's kind of subtle for a lot of people, and not even an entirely accurate metric on its own, as it would really require you to know the broadcast arrangements for every team in the league(s) you care about.

For instance, I got lucky with NHLCI in picking D* over DISH. I didn't really appreciate at the time how lucky I got, because there really wasn't a handy-dandy way to see that. I knew they both had HD channels for it, but didn't appreciate how many more D* had. So at the time I was doing "scoreboard" on making that decision, I actually ranked them equal on that particular factor.

And certainly that is a "passion" factor for many people. It would have been for me if I'd had some kind of obvious metric to realize it.

Which is a long-winded way of explaining why it would useful to try to figure out an easily understood and obvious metric to include in the channel lineup comparison up top that makes that stand out more.

Then the hard part becomes, what can it be, and can it be developed with a reasonable amount of work --I'm not a fan of "voting for someone else to work" kind of thing.

The only reliable possible metric that jumps out at me, since the reality of a part-time RSN is "maybe they will and maybe they won't" is an actual experienced-based metric. In other words, something like "for the sample month of X, DirecTV broadcast Y% of this sports package's games in HD, and DISH broadcast Z% of this sports package's games in HD."

I think that kind of thing is the only way to get at it in a relatively reliable way, but I'm willing to hear alternate thinking on the matter. A week is probably a little too short for that kind of thing, and while a whole "season to date" kind of number would be great, is likely too much work unless one or both of the providers give it, and likely one of them wouldn't want to. 

Any thoughts on that?


----------



## James Long

georule said:


> Which got me thinking about the sports packages and how generally unsatisfactory it is to get a handle on that with the current metrics. It really becomes a matter of someone trying to make that decision possibly being wise enough to understand the inferred implication of full-time RSNs vs part-time RSNs. That's kind of subtle for a lot of people, and not even an entirely accurate metric on its own, as it would really require you to know the broadcast arrangements for every team in the league(s) you care about.
> ...
> The only reliable possible metric that jumps out at me, since the reality of a part-time RSN is "maybe they will and maybe they won't" is an actual experienced-based metric. In other words, something like "for the sample month of X, DirecTV broadcast Y% of this sports package's games in HD, and DISH broadcast Z% of this sports package's games in HD."


I believe it would be a real pain to keep up to date and with two year commitments a precise number of what the providers did last month or even the last six months doesn't guarantee what they will do in the future. In other words, the numbers will change.

Part time RSNs and sports packages are not simple math, a multiple choice or a true false question ... they are an essay question with an essay answer: DirecTV has 24/7 HD RSNs that will air whatever the channel provider sends (subject only to market restrictions) plus capacity that has been known to be used to carry additional HD RSN games as needed to complete the schedule. DirecTV doesn't miss a game - unless the rights are owned by an RSN they don't carry.
DISH does not have 24/7 HD RSNs (other than the Big Ten Network). They have set aside the capacity to air 12 HD games maximum and have been known to join games in progress and totally miss games even when capacity is available.​The executive summary is "if you care about HD sports, don't get DISH".

Non-RSNs are easily quantified ... they are either there or not there. (PPVs are reduced on DirecTV when extra RSN/specialty sports channel space is needed but few people complain about the lack of PPVs.) Non-RSNs fit in to ice neat checkboxes.


----------



## georule

Mmm, perhaps "maximum capacity" is the metric then to put in the box for the sports packages. Tho even that is shared when there is overlap in season, like NBALP vs NHLCI. Maybe "12/2" in those boxes for Dish (i.e. 12 channels shared two ways)?

Even if you can quantify RSNs and other channels, the liklihood that an individual considering a given sports package likely HD content as a matter of priority would know what was really relevant to him is somewhere between unlikely and highly unlikely. Knowing the broadcast arrangements of your favorite team is one thing --knowing the broadcast arrangements of the other 29 teams in the league is something else again. Do they have a RSN? Are all their games on that RSN, or is it a split package? Split with who? Etc, etc, x30.


----------



## georule

Actually, I forgot about ESPN Full Court (College hoops) for DISH. So it's really "12/3" I'm suggesting be put in the green boxes for DISH in the Sports package section of the table in post 1 for NHLCI, NBALP, and ESPN Full Court. With perhaps an asterisk to explain it at the bottom.

Do we have the numbers to put in the boxes for DirecTV?

Since Sports Packages don't add to the totals, that wouldn't change the overall totals. But it would provide relevant and valuable "at a glance" information to people considering the matter, and that's the point of doing such a table in the first place.


----------



## James Long

So what is greater, 60/8 or 12/3? Any number would need explanation ... which gets us pack in to the essay answer.

DISH uses their 12 HD RSN capacity for in market delivery, not just sports packages - so the "/" figure (if used) should show that use. But with so many in market games missing or joined in progress should that be a /0.5 added to the package count? The RSN capacity isn't in use for every single sports package at the same time so the largest "/" number possible would be a /2 ... one for the in-market use and one for the sports package use.

It is an essay answer.


----------



## georule

James Long said:


> So what is greater, 60/8 or 12/3? Any number would need explanation ... which gets us pack in to the essay answer.
> 
> DISH uses their 12 HD RSN capacity for in market delivery, not just sports packages - so the "/" figure (if used) should show that use. But with so many in market games missing or joined in progress should that be a /0.5 added to the package count? The RSN capacity isn't in use for every single sports package at the same time so the largest "/" number possible would be a /2 ... one for the in-market use and one for the sports package use.


Yeah, you lost me on that one. Are you saying that if an RSN is showing a local non-sports package game (say, College Hockey) in HD then the 12 is reduced by 1, and still divided by 3? If so, yes, I can see that. I'm not sure how often it happens in real life for those kind of sports at this point. Would DISH be likely to show a non-package RSN game in HD very often when they've got 3 packages of HD games going at once at the same time as it? They would have the option to show that non-package game in SD instead, right?

Essays and books can be written, but that doesn't mean sentences and paragraphs are useless. Maximum capacity and ways it is likely to be split still strikes me as useful information to have in such an at-a-glance table. Right now the essay isn't even there.


----------



## James Long

Take DirecTV's "60" (or so) channel capacity that they use for 24/7 HD RSNs and borrow from PPVs for use for part time HD RSNs. One of those channels is CSN Chicago. When airing a Bears game that channel is available (as always) in market as an RSN and outside of the market as part of NFL ST. When airing a Blackhawks game that channel is available in market as an RSN and out of market as part of NFL CI. When airing a Bulls game that channel is available in market as an RSN and out of market as part of the NBA package. The channel is always available in market (unless some blackout rule applies for that game). It's secondary use can only be ONE of the single sports packages. Saying it is /4 (or how many single sports packages the channel is used in plus 1 for in market use) requires explanation.

Use of the channel for non-professional sports events (such as college hockey) could add another "/" to the count thanks to the sports pack/Premier use of the channel (although counting once as an RSN whether viewed in market or not would be better). Not counting the use of a channel as an RSN and only counting use in single sports packages is slanted.

Confused? I hope so. It isn't supposed to be easy. As I've already noted, this is an essay question. The simplest answer is not getting too complicated with the math and stating it as simple as possible. ie: "DirecTV airs up to 60 HD RSNs at a time (all sports combined) with 29 RSNs carried 24/7." (or whatever the real numbers are). "DISH airs up to 12 HD RSNs at a time (game only, all sports combined)."


----------



## georule

Well, if "60" and "12" appeared somewhere appropriate in the chart, that'd still be an improvement.  If that got hyperlinked or something to the mind-bending essay explaining the implications and how they might work out in practice, then even better.


----------



## James Long

Updated PDF to add OWN to DISH Network.

See most recent update for updated file.


----------



## BigRedFan

James Long said:


> Updated to add OWN to DISH Network.


James, this HD Comparison Chart is very impressive !... The most complete and accurate one I've ever seen... Certainly way ahead of the rules-biased one at AVS Forum..... Is there a reason why it's not posted as a sticky thread at DBS Talk where we can always go back to for reference ?.... (As opposed to looking for your updates in your posts...)... Thanks !


----------



## sigma1914

BigRedFan said:


> James, this HD Comparison Chart is very impressive !... The most complete and accurate one I've ever seen... Certainly way ahead of the rules-biased one at AVS Forum..... Is there a reason why it's not posted as a sticky thread at DBS Talk where we can always go back to for reference ?.... (As opposed to looking for your updates in your posts...)... Thanks !


I bookmarked his excellent site.


----------



## harsh

For the Internet challenged, there's a link to the website in James' signature.


----------



## BigRedFan

harsh said:


> For the Internet challenged, there's a link to the website in James' signature.


Yes, I'm aware of this... However, most DBS Talk visitors will never know this great resource exists if they have to look for it there.... A sticky thread home gives it the genuine importance and relevance it deserves....Plus, it adds even more value to this website....


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 updates the graphical version at the beginning of this sticky thread (or at least he used to update this thread).

I keep a separate PDF version updated and attach it when updated.

The stuff on my website has been around for a few years ... I had a SD channel comparison there for a while but it got to be too much to keep up with and I don't believe many care about SD. The 2007 HD compare turned in to 2008 and 2009 and 2010. I suppose we're at 2011 now (with one channel added to each provider).

I believe my web stuff is better on my site with regular HTML and no BBCODE. I share the information here as much as possible but I like the web format better for my website and the daily/auto update stuff (today's channel lists and uplink report archive) needs to be hosted there.


----------



## BigRedFan

James Long said:


> Hoosier205 updates the graphical version at the beginning of this sticky thread (or at least he used to update this thread).
> 
> I keep a separate PDF version updated and attach it when updated.
> 
> The stuff on my website has been around for a few years ... I had a SD channel comparison there for a while but it got to be too much to keep up with and I don't believe many care about SD. The 2007 HD compare turned in to 2008 and 2009 and 2010. I suppose we're at 2011 now (with one channel added to each provider).
> 
> I believe my web stuff is better on my site with regular HTML and no BBCODE. I share the information here as much as possible but I like the web format better for my website and the daily/auto update stuff (today's channel lists and uplink report archive) needs to be hosted there.


I had no idea you had a separate website....I clicked on The Uplink Center in your signature but can't find the PDF of the Comparison Chart mentioned here....Still, amazing work !... Very grateful...


----------



## James Long

BigRedFan said:


> I had no idea you had a separate website....I clicked on The Uplink Center in your signature but can't find the PDF of the Comparison Chart mentioned here....Still, amazing work !... Very grateful...


The PDF is attached in the thread you're reading ... the last attachment is a few posts up ( http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2726092#post2726092 ). I don't post that on my website.

(Someone asked for a PDF version earlier in the thread - so I made one.)


----------



## Hoosier205

Updated...finally. I had been without access to the file for a period of time.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier ... you missed this update from February 4th:


James Long said:


> CSN California (including Part Time HD) returned to DISH ...


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> Hoosier ... you missed this update from February 4th:


Thanks James. I'll get it tonight.


----------



## bobl

Good to get an update but your list still reflects Discovery Kids when it was renamed The Hub months ago now. Neither provider has it but still, why not correct it?


----------



## bobl

Just another thought for an update-how about updating the projected dates for those channels which have not yet gone on the air? There are eight of them dated sometime in 2010 (obviously, that didn't happen). What about a newer date or simply relabel them as TBD like others on the list?


----------



## James Long

bobl said:


> Just another thought for an update-how about updating the projected dates for those channels which have not yet gone on the air? There are eight of them dated sometime in 2010 (obviously, that didn't happen). What about a newer date or simply relabel them as TBD like others on the list?


Got better dates? Please share.

I'm surprised that some of those channels are still on the "HD in 2010" list - especially the Starz!/Encore suite.


----------



## bobl

I don't, but simply marking them as TBD would be a better choice, at this point, than giving them a 2010 date.


----------



## bobl

James Long said:


> Got better dates? Please share.
> 
> I'm surprised that some of those channels are still on the "HD in 2010" list - especially the Starz!/Encore suite.


I do actually have one better date. I believe Disney Junior goes on the air 01/01/12 as I think it replaces SoapNet. The date could be updated from the generic 2012.


----------



## James Long

bobl said:


> I do actually have one better date. I believe Disney Junior goes on the air 01/01/12 as I think it replaces SoapNet. The date could be updated from the generic 2012.


I can't find a reference to a specific date ... "January 2012" would be fair.

Personally I don't track channels that don't have a HD feed (or are on DISH in SD for another project) ... and for the purposes of what I post in this thread, a channel needs to be on DISH or DirecTV (or with an announced date). Others can follow different standards.


----------



## bobl

Just noticed one other change needed for hoosier's list-return CSN California to light blue, rather than yellow, as the contract dispute has been over for awhile now.


----------



## James Long

bobl said:


> Just noticed one other change needed for hoosier's list-return CSN California to light blue, rather than yellow, as the contract dispute has been over for awhile now.


Already noted.


Hoosier205 said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hoosier ... you missed this update from February 4th:
> 
> 
> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> CSN California (including Part Time HD) returned to DISH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks James. I'll get it tonight.
Click to expand...


----------



## Aransay

disney jr enters latina emrica also arpil 1 replacing playhause disney
discovery kids stiil exist in latin america teh oen in alio apcakesm is eth same


----------



## James Long

Aransay said:


> disney jr enters latina emrica also arpil 1 replacing playhause disney
> discovery kids stiil exist in latin america teh oen in alio apcakesm is eth same


This thread is for the US services ... offerings outside the US are not relevant.


----------



## James Long

DISH added RFD TV in HD today ...


----------



## Hoosier205

I wasn't familiar with that channel, so I looked it up. They show Hee Haw! They score a point in my book.


----------



## James Long

RFD is a former public interest channel ... they lost the PI status after airing commercial programming. Not a bad channel to be in HD.


----------



## rkr0923

Dang! they get everything most people want.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> RFD is a former public interest channel ... they lost the PI status after airing commercial programming. Not a bad channel to be in HD.


I'm trying to figure out what, if any, programs they offer in HD. Just for the sake of curiosity. I haven't been able to find any as of yet.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> I'm trying to figure out what, if any, programs they offer in HD. Just for the sake of curiosity. I haven't been able to find any as of yet.


I saw "Presley's Country Jubilee" last night when flipping channels. Unfortunately the programs are not marked in the guide as HD as on other channels. The current show "Midwest Country" is SD.


----------



## Hoosier205

I will update the list/chart tonight.


----------



## James Long

DirecTV added HBO Signature and HBO Family (East).

(Attachment updated in later post.)


----------



## Sea bass

DNS channel count of 11 should be changed to 8. PBS, CWe, and CWw are not in HD. Unless there are new additions coming?


----------



## dcowboy7

Why dont the DNS count in the overall total....sixto counts them.


----------



## Sixto

dcowboy7 said:


> Why dont the DNS count in the overall total....sixto counts them.


BTW, I've only included them because DirecTV has in public presentations included them, and was attempting to be consistent and provide the detail for DirecTV's totals.

Also, I do break out the categories, so that everyone can decide whether they want to include them or not in their own personal analysis.


----------



## James Long

dcowboy7 said:


> Why dont the DNS count in the overall total....sixto counts them.


Personally, due to the heavy restrictions on their reception (more than just temporary blackouts during games or small regional blocks such as cities where porn channels are not sold) I don't consider them anywhere near "national" channels. The percentage of customers who can legally receive the channels is small.

But DirecTV likes to count them and in past comparisons DirecTV counts eight DNS channels vs four channels for DISH (DirecTV giving credit for DISH's carriage of HD locals). Basically DirecTV counted "DNS or local network HD".

Counting locals is messy.


----------



## James Long

I didn't post this last week ... adding Reelz Channel to DISH and noting the dispute with SNY. Yes is still listed for DirecTV (even if it goes away I expect it will be back).


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> BTW, I've only included them because DirecTV has in public presentations included them, and was attempting to be consistent and provide the detail for DirecTV's totals.


They also consume the better part of two CONUS HD transponders and that cuts into DIRECTV's increasingly precious national HD channel capacity.


----------



## James Long

They have the capacity to do DNS ...

Sixto's current report (3-30-11) has 172 HD feeds active on DirecTV:
* 95 HD Networks
* 27 HD Full-time Regional Sport Networks (RSN's)
* 8 HD DNS Locals: CBS/NBC/ABC/FOX East&West
* 39 HD Cinema
* 3 3D
= 172
Room for 13-33 more (depending on what "PUSH" is) without degrading current quality.

For DISH that would be:
* 111 HD Networks
* 12 "HDSKD" channels used for Part-Time RSNs
* 0 HD DNS Locals (although there are signs of some coming)
* 23 HD Cinema (and other PPV)
= 146
Room for 6-14 more without degrading current quality (up to 30 more depending on other channel shifts).


----------



## inkahauts

I think some updating of the chart on post one is needed.. I think your missing some HBO's..

But I know.. There is no FSN West 2.. That channel is now called Prime Ticket, and it is available in HD on Directv. 694


----------



## coolman302003

James Long said:


> I didn't post this last week ... adding Reelz Channel to DISH


James isn't the ReelzChannel supposed to only stay in HD until May 4th, 2011? I noticed that seemed to be the wording on the PR on DISH Network's website.



REELZCHANNEL to Offer "The Kennedys" in High Definition Nationwide only on DISH Network
said:


> "The announcement also means DISH Network subscribers will be able to watch all REELZCHANNEL programming in HD April 3 through May 4"


----------



## James Long

coolman302003 said:


> James isn't the ReelzChannel supposed to only stay in HD until May 4th, 2011? I noticed that seemed to be the wording on the PR on DISH Network's website.


The press release isn't on DISH's site (here). I found it through Google when I posted it. Apparently Reelz released it. So far there is no confirmation that the channel will stay beyond May 4th ... but the uplink activity of adding it to commercial accounts would support the thought that it might stick around.

The channel is there now ... and there is a note in bold on my version of the chart noting the potential temporary status (with similar notes on my website). If it does disappear on May 4th it will be easy enough to remove from the chart.


----------



## Hoosier205

inkahauts said:


> I think some updating of the chart on post one is needed.. I think your missing some HBO's..
> 
> But I know.. There is no FSN West 2.. That channel is now called Prime Ticket, and it is available in HD on Directv. 694


You are correct. I just haven't had the time, but I hope to over the weekend.


----------



## bobl

If you're going to update it please return CSN California to carried full-time status for Dish, rename Discovery Kids to the Hub and change debut dates of new HD channels to something other than a date in 2010 (either an actual updated date or TBD). Also, Cooking Channel is slightly off in terms of being sorted alphabetically.


----------



## James Long

DirecTV welcomes Shorts HD ...
DISH ends the temporary carriage of Reelz and adds Game Show Network.


----------



## James Long

DISH Network changed World Fishing Network to SD and added Veria in HD.

PDF attached.


----------



## James Long

DirecTV adds five HD channels May 25th ...
506 HBO Comedy, 511 HBO Latino, 517 More Max, 519 ActionMax and 522 ThrillerMax.

(Attachment updated July 27th ... see here further down the thread.)


----------



## camo

I guess that means Direct passed Dish with HD premiums 27-29.


----------



## harsh

camo said:


> I guess that means Direct passed Dish with HD premiums 27-29.


If you count the SPORTS PACK premium package (occupying 27 full-time channels), that happened a long time ago.

On the commercial-free movie channel front, DISH perhaps still has an edge with Pixl, Epix, Epix2, Retroplex and Indieplex in their Platinum package.


----------



## camo

harsh said:


> If you count the SPORTS PACK premium package (occupying 27 full-time channels), that happened a long time ago.
> 
> On the commercial-free movie channel front, DISH perhaps still has an edge with Pixl, Epix, Epix2, Retroplex and Indieplex in their Platinum package.


I'm looking at the official line up posted at top of this thread for premium movie channels that has nothing to do with sports channels. Last time it was updated was 3-10 so with the 5 new premium movie channels added yesterday Direct jumps Dish. (29-27)
Also the line-up includes counting Pixl, Epix, Epix2, Retroplex and Indieplex for Dish.


----------



## harsh

camo said:


> I'm looking at the official line up posted at top of this thread for premium movie channels that has nothing to do with sports channels.


Official Hoosier205 list, yes. Official DBSTalk, DIRECTV, DISH Network, etc., no.

As a reference point, it can certainly be used if explicitly referenced.


> Also the line-up includes counting Pixl, Epix, Epix2, Retroplex and Indieplex for Dish.


DISH's Platinum HD is not technically a Premium package as it isn't included in their top-level package and doesn't qualify for multiple Premium Channel discounting.


----------



## camo

harsh said:


> Official Hoosier205 list, yes. Official DBSTalk, DIRECTV, DISH Network, etc., no.
> 
> As a reference point, it can certainly be used if explicitly referenced.DISH's Platinum HD is not technically a Premium package as it isn't included in their top-level package and doesn't qualify for multiple Premium Channel discounting.


WHAT???? I have no clue what your beef is, facts are Directv has more Premium HD movie channels offered now. So what? I said there up by 2 premiums by the list reported on this site and your making a issue out of it. 
If you want to believe Dish has more premiums, feel free.


----------



## James Long

A reminder ...


Hoosier205 said:


> This is *NOT* a thread to attack either provider or other members.


That being said: with this week's DirecTV additions, the count is DISH 23 DirecTV 31 for premiums (HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, Starz, Encore).

The count is DISH 88 DirecTV 70 for non-RSN basics (although there are arguably some sports channels in that count - and the Platinum/Extra channels).

Overall: DISH 134, DirecTV 169 as a full time HD channel count. Under DirecTV rules they counted only full time channels. Adding 3D and distant networks (services that are not widely distributed) makes the "score" 138 to 180.

Of course if your favorite channels are not part of your provider's number the number really doesn't matter. Which is why the comparisons in this thread are MORE than a simple number. The charts provided give a bigger picture than any simple number could.


----------



## Hoosier205

I finally updated the list. I lost the file to a HDD failure and had to start from scratch.


----------



## TravelFan1

Hoosier, great job. I noticed a few things that, I believe, need to be updated:
1- Dish no longer carries SNY - they are in a contract dispute with SNY.
2- Dish has never carried either MSG or MSG+ in HD, not even in a part-time basis.
3- Dish carries GSN in HD.
4- Wedding Channel is about to fold, if it hasn't folded already.
5- Nascar Hot Pass and NFL Sunday ticket temporary contract disputes with DIsh? I Don't believe so, I think dish doesn't carry it, period.
6- You may also add ESPN Deportes HD to your list. Time Warner in NYC, for instance, carries it.
7- DIsh no longer carries WFN in HD... it was dropped when DIsh decided to start carrying...
8- Dish carries Veria in HD.
9- Finally, list is missing Telemundo HD, ION HD, ABC Live Well HD, which neither Dish nor Directv carries.

That's what my tired eyes were able to see today  Again, great job!


----------



## Hoosier205

"TravelFan1" said:


> Hoosier, great job. I noticed a few things that, I believe, need to be updated:
> 1- Dish no longer carries SNY - they are in a contract dispute with SNY.
> 2- Dish has never carried either MSG or MSG+ in HD, not even in a part-time basis.
> 3- Dish carries GSN in HD.
> 4- Wedding Channel is about to fold, if it hasn't folded already.
> 5- Nascar Hot Pass and NFL Sunday ticket temporary contract disputes with DIsh? I Don't believe so, I think dish doesn't carry it, period.
> 6- You may also add ESPN Deportes HD to your list. Time Warner in NYC, for instance, carries it.
> 7- DIsh no longer carries WFN in HD... it was dropped when DIsh decided to start carrying...
> 8- Dish carries Veria in HD.
> 9- Finally, list is missing Telemundo HD, ION HD, ABC Live Well HD, which neither Dish nor Directv carries.
> 
> That's what my tired eyes were able to see today  Again, great job!


Thanks for the list! I knew I would make a few mistakes having to start over like that. I will update again tomorrow.


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## bobl

One other correction-CSN California HD isn't carried full-time on Dish Network. Like all other HD RSN's, on Dish Network, it's only carried part-time.


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## Hoosier205

Updated


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## coolman302003

Very nice job Hoosier,

Here is just a few other minor updates that you can do whenever you have time:

HD channels that are available and no longer TBD:

Africa Channel
FearNet 
Fox Movie Channel
Sprout
Sho Beyond West
Sho Next West
Sho Women West

Fox Sports en Espanol is now Fox Deportes and its available in HD

Launching in HD Aug. 1, 2011

Encore Action
Encore Drama

Pentagon Channel is launching in HD Sept. 2011

Disney Junior is launching in HD sometime in 2012


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## Coca Cola Kid

Hoosier, you're counting 1 channel twice. CSN West (originally a game only subfeed of CSN Bay Area) changed its name to CSN California (now a 24 hour channel) a couple of years ago. CSN West should therefore be deleted.


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## Hoosier205

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Hoosier, you're counting 1 channel twice. CSN West (originally a game only subfeed of CSN Bay Area) changed its name to CSN California (now a 24 hour channel) a couple of years ago. CSN West should therefore be deleted.


Thank you


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## Hoosier205

coolman302003 said:


> Very nice job Hoosier,
> 
> Here is just a few other minor updates that you can do whenever you have time:
> 
> HD channels that are available and no longer TBD:
> 
> Africa Channel
> FearNet
> Fox Movie Channel
> Sprout
> Sho Beyond West
> Sho Next West
> Sho Women West
> 
> Fox Sports en Espanol is now Fox Deportes and its available in HD
> 
> Launching in HD Aug. 1, 2011
> 
> Encore Action
> Encore Drama
> 
> Pentagon Channel is launching in HD Sept. 2011
> 
> Disney Junior is launching in HD sometime in 2012


Thank you


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## bobl

A few more items for the next update:

1. The counts at the top of the table don't add down
2. CBS College Sports s/b CBS Sports Network
3. Sony HD s/b Sony Movie Channel
4. Cox Sports New Orleans s/b resorted (did it used to be an FSN?)


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## Hoosier205

bobl said:


> A few more items for the next update:
> 
> 1. The counts at the top of the table don't add down
> 2. CBS College Sports s/b CBS Sports Network
> 3. Sony HD s/b Sony Movie Channel
> 4. Cox Sports New Orleans s/b resorted (did it used to be an FSN?)


Thanks. I'll work on it in just a little bit.


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## BenJF3

Apparently, there is no actual definition of what an HD "Channel" is if the OP actually believes D* has 207 HD "Channels". I guess the bottom line is why do sat providers have to lie about (or grossly exaggerate) their channel counts. I was almost going to switch to DirecTV 3 years ago and then they started blatantly lying about content, haven't looked at them since other to see that they still lie. 

Dish did it too claiming they were the first to offer 200 HD channels!


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## Hoosier205

BenJF3 said:


> Apparently, there is no actual definition of what an HD "Channel" is if the OP actually believes D* has 207 HD "Channels". I guess the bottom line is why do sat providers have to lie about (or grossly exaggerate) their channel counts. I was almost going to switch to DirecTV 3 years ago and then they started blatantly lying about content, haven't looked at them since other to see that they still lie.
> 
> Dish did it too claiming they were the first to offer 200 HD channels!


For the purposes of this list, we try to count everything we can. It is easier to include something, than to exclude something. How would you recommend the list be more accurate. It's a slippery slope when you start deciding what doesn't count.


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## Hoosier205

Today's update will have to wait until tomorrow due to...unscheduled craziness.


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## BenJF3

Hoosier205 said:


> For the purposes of this list, we try to count everything we can. It is easier to include something, than to exclude something. How would you recommend the list be more accurate. It's a slippery slope when you start deciding what doesn't count.


My main beef is with providers claiming movie, PPV's, RSN's, locals, etc. Take regional sports channels - a channel that is nothing more than a mirror of itself multiple times over (except for a local game). Counting east and west local feeds, C'mon? A PPV channel that is nothing more than a loop of one movie all day, really? I get why providers do it, but it turned me off to DirecTV a long time ago because they were (and are) the most blatant. Using D*'s logic of what they consider an HD "channel", I could claim that Time Warner in my division has 300 HD channels because of all the VOD offerings.

An HD "channel" should be just that - a dedicated network's HD feed. Everything else is just content. Then again, I'm sure they would just use deceptive ads with the word content in them like Comcast did!

At least, your list distinguishes the "channels" on the first post.


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## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> For the purposes of this list, we try to count everything we can. It is easier to include something, than to exclude something. How would you recommend the list be more accurate. It's a slippery slope when you start deciding what doesn't count.


More accurately ... for the purpose of your count YOU count what you want. Injecting the royal "we" makes it sound like everyone agrees with the additional channels that you've added. (Please see disagreement in previous posts in this thread.)

That "you count what you want" is why we have lists and not just a number. Everyone is invited to count what they want. There is no official total for this thread, forum or site.


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## Hoosier205

"James Long" said:


> More accurately ... for the purpose of your count YOU count what you want. Injecting the royal "we" makes it sound like everyone agrees with the additional channels that you've added. (Please see disagreement in previous posts in this thread.)
> 
> That "you count what you want" is why we have lists and not just a number. Everyone is invited to count what they want. There is no official total for this thread, forum or site.


You have your opinion and I have mine.


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## Hoosier205

"BenJF3" said:


> My main beef is with providers claiming movie, PPV's, RSN's, locals, etc. Take regional sports channels - a channel that is nothing more than a mirror of itself multiple times over (except for a local game). Counting east and west local feeds, C'mon? A PPV channel that is nothing more than a loop of one movie all day, really? I get why providers do it, but it turned me off to DirecTV a long time ago because they were (and are) the most blatant. Using D*'s logic of what they consider an HD "channel", I could claim that Time Warner in my division has 300 HD channels because of all the VOD offerings.
> 
> An HD "channel" should be just that - a dedicated network's HD feed. Everything else is just content. Then again, I'm sure they would just use deceptive ads with the word content in them like Comcast did!
> 
> At least, your list distinguishes the "channels" on the first post.


Every HD channel is counted as an HD channel. It's the only fair way to count them. It gets out of hand if you look for excuses to not count something.


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## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> You have your opinion and I have mine.


Which is why it is good to have an occasional reminder that the count you give is your opinion and should not be considered anything "official".


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## BenJF3

Hoosier205 said:


> Every HD channel is counted as an HD channel. It's the only fair way to count them. It gets out of hand if you look for excuses to not count something.


I made no excuses - I was simply stating the facts. So, by rights then Time Warner should be able to claim 300 HD channels.


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## Hoosier205

"BenJF3" said:


> I made no excuses - I was simply stating the facts. So, by rights then Time Warner should be able to claim 300 HD channels.


I know you didn't. It was just a general statement. I don't know or care about TWC. Just trying to give an accurate comparison between these two providers.


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## BenJF3

Hoosier205 said:


> I know you didn't. It was just a general statement. I don't know or care about TWC. Just trying to give an accurate comparison between these two providers.


And I can appreciate the fact that you at least distinguish the designations in your list. My main point wasn't directed directly at you so much as it was against the deceptive advertising and press releases of _both_ sat providers.


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## Hutchinshouse

BenJF3 said:


> And I can appreciate the fact that you at least distinguish the designations in your list. My main point wasn't directed directly at you so much as it was against the deceptive advertising and press releases of _both_ sat providers.


Yeah, DIRECTV clearly loves to be deceptive, yet even they don't claim to have 207 HD channels. !rolling

Enough said


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## Hoosier205

"Hutchinshouse" said:


> Yeah, DIRECTV clearly loves to be deceptive, yet even they don't claim to have 207 HD channels. !rolling
> 
> Enough said


They say more than 170. 207 happens to be more than 170.


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## BenJF3

Hutchinshouse said:


> Yeah, DIRECTV clearly loves to be deceptive, yet even they don't claim to have 207 HD channels. !rolling
> 
> Enough said


Swann nails the topic:

http://www.tvpredictions.com/dcare071211.htm

http://www.tvpredictions.com/dlie071411.htm

Dish does it too:

http://www.tvpredictions.com/dishbozle042010.htm

Nuff said'


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## James Long

Hutchinshouse said:


> Yeah, DIRECTV clearly loves to be deceptive, yet even they don't claim to have 207 HD channels. !rolling


When I started listing four years ago the intent was to explain the counts that the providers were giving. A company claims 100 HD channels ... how do they get that figure?

I did it generally for DISH, and Sixto did it over in the DirecTV forum for DirecTV - not a contest of "who is bigger" (or even the biggest liar) but an answer to the simple question of "how did they come up with that number"?

Last spring (2010) DirecTV came out with an actual list as a marketing piece. (The list was not kept up to date and has now been removed.) They set a standard for what they would count and what they don't count. Full Time including 3D plus 8 for distant networks. Following that standard, DirecTV now has around 180 HD channels (I have not audited PPVs lately).

DISH, on the other hand, decided to counter DirecTV's "200" _capacity_ claim by claiming over 200 channels _carried_ ... and when they created their list it included everything they could plus 59 VOD titles.

As stated, creating lists to explain counts is why I started listing channels. Being able to say "that is how they got that number" and then deciding what channels to discount as padding on a personal level. If "everything" is to be included then nothing either provider counts should be excluded - even if it seems to be padding or delivered only to a very narrow audience.

Personally I like DirecTV's counting standard ... less padding and no double counting of channels. It is a capacity based count. No provider can have more channels than they have the capacity to carry at any given moment. That limits DISH to 154 channels and DirecTV to whatever Sixto is saying in his reports (capacity used to deliver channels to customers - not test channels). Any count higher than used capacity is padded.


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## BenJF3

James Long said:


> Personally I like DirecTV's counting standard ... less padding and no double counting of channels. _*It is a capacity based count.*_ No provider can have more channels than they have the capacity to carry at any given moment. That limits DISH to 154 channels and DirecTV to whatever Sixto is saying in his reports (capacity used to deliver channels to customers - not test channels). Any count higher than used capacity is padded.


Yea, but you can't watch capacity. That is where they fail or maybe it's where they succeed? Succeed as in fooling sub and potential subs that the missing HD is coming. I'm just glad I didn't get sucked into a two year contract with D* waiting for channels that never came (or will come). At the same time, I'm fortunate that my Time Warner division has become an HD leader so I have a choice of getting the HD channels I want.


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## Hoosier205

Updated


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## James Long

BenJF3 said:


> Yea, but you can't watch capacity.


Read the whole post ... it is *capacity in use*. When a provider doesn't have all of their channels running at the same time or must take down some channels to provide others that should to be accounted for.

Counting channels in the guide that are simply placeholders that may at some time have content is as bad as counting unused capacity as channels. That is why I believe counts should never exceed the capacity in use.


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## bobl

Great update! After reviewing, I found a few other corrections/suggestions:

1. ABC West (KABC0 s/b ABC West (KABC)
2. Subscription Sports Packages counts are off- 6 & 3 s/b 7 & 4 per the table
3. Alternate Regional Sports s/b 14 for Dish as they now have 4 Big Ten and 10 Alternate Games (they recently increased these from 6 to 10)
4. Add Oxygen HD (neither provider has it yet)
5. Sort the Alternate Regional Sports Networks the same as the Full-Time & Part-Time Regional Sports Networks


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## bobl

Couple other items I came across:

1. Rename Encore Mystery to Encore Suspense
2. Rename Encome Wam to Encore Family

Both changes take effect August 1st along with the launch of Encore Action HD and Encore Drama HD. The HD versions of Suspense and Family aren't launching on August 1st but the SD versions are being renamed on that date.


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## James Long

bobl said:


> Couple other items I came across:
> 
> 1. Rename Encore Mystery to Encore Suspense
> 2. Rename Encome Wam to Encore Family
> 
> Both changes take effect August 1st along with the launch of Encore Action HD and Encore Drama HD. The HD versions of Suspense and Family aren't launching on August 1st but the SD versions are being renamed on that date.


That change can be made in two weeks.


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## inkahauts

Dish doesn't carry Prime Ticket in HD? Really? That's beyond ridiculous. I don't even understand how that could happen considering Fox likes to package that with FSW...


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## Hoosier205

inkahauts said:


> Dish doesn't carry Prime Ticket in HD? Really? That's beyond ridiculous. I don't even understand how that could happen considering Fox likes to package that with FSW...


Actually, it looks like they do carry it on channel 411. I had to redo the list from scratch and I may have made a mistake with that one. Can a Dish customer confirm Prime Ticket in HD?


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## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> Actually, it looks like they do carry it on channel 411. I had to redo the list from scratch and I may have made a mistake with that one. Can a Dish customer confirm Prime Ticket in HD?


Game only.


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## rkr0923

Dish will blow D* out of the water....Mr Chang says D* has all the HD they want or need for now.


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## sigma1914

rkr0923 said:


> Dish will blow D* out of the water....Mr Chang says D* has all the HD they want or need for now.


For the billionth time, that's not what was said.


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## Hoosier205

"James Long" said:


> Game only.


Thank you James


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## James Long

rkr0923 said:


> Dish will blow D* out of the water....Mr Chang says D* has all the HD they want or need for now.


This isn't that kind of thread.


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## Alan Gordon

I haven't been following this thread since I don't really care about channel counts, but I clicked on this thread by accident and noticed TWO big mistakes right off, and found another one shortly thereafter.

The HD-DNS section has DirecTV carrying CW East (WDCW) and CW West (XETV) in HD. While I believe those channels are both available to subscribers in their respective local markets, DirecTV only offers SD feeds of them via DNS. The two are among two of my most wanted HD channels from DirecTV, so I wish it were true...

Upon closer inspection, I also noticed that you have PBS listed as an HD-DNS option from DirecTV. This is incorrect as well. DirecTV currently only offers PBS DNS in SD...

So, though they might not count in the overall totals, there are 8 HD-DNS feeds on DirecTV instead of the listed 11.

Also, you list the HD-DNS feeds as "HD Cable Networks". It might be a little less confusing if they were labeled "HD DNS Feeds" or something...

~Alan


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## James Long

A couple of hours early ... but --

DirecTV adds:
505 HBO 2 (West)
520 Cinemax 5 Star
521 W Max
523 @ Max

(and ESPN 3D goes full time)

New PDF chart attached. Adjustments have been made for the PPV channels taken off the air for May and July adds.


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## RAD

James Long said:


> A couple of hours early ... but --
> 
> DirecTV adds:
> 505 HBO 2 (West)
> 520 Cinemax 5 Star
> 521 W Max
> 523 @ Max
> 
> New PDF chart attached. Adjustments have been made for the PPV channels taken off the air for May and July adds.


James, your chart still has 505, 520, 521 and 523 in red for DirecTV. You might also want to change ESPN 3D to green from yellow since it's also full time now.


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## James Long

RAD said:


> James, your chart still has 505, 520, 521 and 523 in red for DirecTV. You might also want to change ESPN 3D to green from yellow since it's also full time now.


Also DISH renamed the Encore channels today (I thought that was coming Monday?). They only renamed the SDs ...

344 EMYST Encore Mysteries renamed ESUSP Encore Suspense
347 EWAM Encore WAM renamed EFAM Encore Family

Has DirecTV done the rename yet?


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## Tom Robertson

James Long said:


> Also DISH renamed the Encore channels today (I thought that was coming Monday?). They only renamed the SDs ...
> 
> 344 EMYST Encore Mysteries renamed ESUSP Encore Suspense
> 347 EWAM Encore WAM renamed EFAM Encore Family
> 
> Has DirecTV done the rename yet?


Not yet.

Cheers,
Tom


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## bobl

Another addition for the next update-Bloomberg HD. Neither satellite company carries it at this time.


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## jwktiger05

Good job Hoosier


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## Hoosier205

I have deleted the first post.


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## James Long

Since the comparison at the beginning of this thread has been deleted a new thread will be started to continue this tracking.


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