# Genie with Denon Amp



## bonscott (May 1, 2007)

I just upgraded to a genie connected hdmi to a denon amp. It has a handshake issue not showing the volume display or any other info from the amp. If I push menu on the amp remote the picture goes black then comes back up and the info is displayed. When I turn the channel the same problem happens. Anyone else having issues with this?


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

I have my Denon feed audio by optical from TV out to Denon in. No HDMI runs through the Denon from Genie. It works fine.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Denon receivers are notorious for their HDMI handshake issues.
try setting the resolutions on your DVR with only 1080i/p checked, and native off - that reduces the handshaking need, and might help.

And laxguy's suggestion might not work for you. Most TVs will not output DD 5.1 on their optical output when the audio comes into the TV via HDMI.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Of course it will work. No guarantees about DD5.1 or any other surround stuff. But it fixes the immediate issue.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Make sure that the GUI is set to display on the screen


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Actually lax guy your solution destroys what he wants. He wants to see the avr volume on screen which won't get if he bypasses that avr if I understand him right.

I would definitely look at all the resolution settings and get rid of any native settings first.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> Of course it will work. No guarantees about DD5.1 or any other surround stuff. But it fixes the immediate issue.


There's not much point in having an A/V receiver if you throw away the Dolby Digital signals...
and as has been posted you will lose the on-screen displays anyway


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

texasbrit said:


> There's not much point in having an A/V receiver if you throw away the Dolby Digital signals...
> and as has been posted you will lose the on-screen displays anyway


I cannot agree with your first premise; Dolby Digital doesn't enthrall everyone.

The second statement I can personally attest that my Denon did show onscreen volume with the solution I suggested.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

inkahauts said:


> Actually lax guy your solution destroys what he wants. He wants to see the avr volume on screen which won't get if he bypasses that avr if I understand him right.


Not true, at least with my Denon. AVR volume clearly displayed.

bonscott: There are lots of settings in the Denon that you might try if seeing volume on the screen is important. It works with my suggestion, as well as if you have it via HDMI.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Laxguy said:


> I have my Denon feed audio by optical from TV out to Denon in. No HDMI runs through the Denon from Genie. It works fine.


Most TVs only pass stereo through to their digital outputs (except in the case of OTA tuned by the TV's internal tuner).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bonscott said:


> If I push menu on the amp remote the picture goes black then comes back up and the info is displayed. When I turn the channel the same problem happens.


If your Denon supports upconversion, you should enable it. It sounds like you're Denon is passing through in which case you're not going to see the interface superimposed on the video.

Your TV may be slow to react on a resolution or digital rights change and that's why the blank spots on channel changes. Are you running native output mode on the Genie?

It would be helpful to offer the model of the AVR so we can know where to start with capabilities (or lack thereof).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Laxguy said:


> The second statement I can personally attest that my Denon did show onscreen volume with the solution I suggested.


This would only be possible if you were using variable audio out of the TV and the TV itself was superimposing the volume levels (as opposed to the AVR).


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> Not true, at least with my Denon. AVR volume clearly displayed.
> 
> bonscott: There are lots of settings in the Denon that you might try if seeing volume on the screen is important. It works with my suggestion, as well as if you have it via HDMI.


If you are running the hdmi strait from the hr to the tv and are watching it when you change volume you are never seeing the volume display for your avr on screen.

And if you are not using 5.1 then you are losing a ton of information for shows recorded properly in 5.1. A ton. And your mix won't be nearly as good either coming from the avr. Most avr will let you alter the 5.1 I you want it to sound a little different but it still has so much more info an separation. Not to mention what a difference it makes to a sub.

Hooking up that way is like hooking up s-video out to your tv for Hi Definition.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

harsh said:


> This would only be possible if you were using variable audio out of the TV and the TV itself was superimposing the volume levels (as opposed to the AVR).


You know so much about my setup and what's possible! 
FWIW, you are wrong.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

inkahauts said:


> If you are running the hdmi strait from the hr to the tv and are watching it when you change volume you are never seeing the volume display for your avr on screen. And if you are not using 5.1 then you are losing a ton of information for shows recorded properly in 5.1. A ton. And your mix won't be nearly as good either coming from the avr. Most avr will let you alter the 5.1 I you want it to sound a little different but it still has so much more info an separation. Not to mention what a difference it makes to a sub. Hooking up that way is like hooking up s-video out to your tv for Hi Definition.


Your first statement is completely wrong. 
I don't give a fig about 5.1. Good speakers L+R and center are my preference. I don't want to create a movie house experience in my LR. 
Your analogy to s-video vs. HD is off by a huge margin.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Lax, if video isn't running through your Denon, then how does the Denon display it's settings on your tv?


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

I forget the term, but it must be sending a signal back through the optical that is connected. There is also an HDMI connection from the Denon to the TV but I doubt the TV allows simultaneous HDMI connections.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Laxguy said:


> I forget the term, but it must be sending a signal back through the optical that is connected. There is also an HDMI connection from the Denon to the TV but I doubt the TV allows simultaneous HDMI connections.


What you may be referring to is HDMI-ARC. however this would not display the VOL bar from your AVR on your TV. The optical does only audio, no video


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I forget the term, but it must be sending a signal back through the optical that is connected. There is also an HDMI connection from the Denon to the TV but I doubt the TV allows simultaneous HDMI connections.


Ok help me understand then, what is the exact models of your tv and avr,mbecause its just not possible unless something weird is going on or they are all in the same family and its one of those aynet type things from samsung or sony. Then maybe it will tell you.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Your first statement is completely wrong. 
I don't give a fig about 5.1. Good speakers L+R and center are my preference. I don't want to create a movie house experience in my LR. 
Your analogy to s-video vs. HD is off by a huge margin.


Again, you are missing a lot. If you are only running two channel then your missing full vocal range from your center. You are getting mostly mid level only and the sound field is smashed. Doesn't even have anything to do with running real surround sound. Also separation is far better between all three front speakers if its all discrete channels. And if you set the avr to know its rear speakers are off, then you are all good, and it will sound better and it won't be in 5.1 surround it will comfort of e same three speakers now but it'll be far more precise and you will have a wider sound range to make things clearer.

And I will stand by what I say. You are wasting some of the quality of your equipment if your not running discrete channels.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Electronic signals can be broadcast in two ways: electromagnetic signals travel over wire and light wave travel over fiber optical cables. A complex video signal can travel over either, depending on how it is modulated or mixed in the system that connects to the fiber or cable. Signals over wire can be digital or analog, but signals over fiber can only be digital. Digital pulses carry voice, video, or data information, or any combination of the three, depending on how pulses are arranged for the system.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

bonscott said:


> I just upgraded to a genie connected hdmi to a denon amp. It has a handshake issue not showing the volume display or any other info from the amp. If I push menu on the amp remote the picture goes black then comes back up and the info is displayed. When I turn the channel the same problem happens. Anyone else having issues with this?


What did you upgrade from? I have an HR20, and an HR22 going through my Denon AVR-3312 via HDMI and I get volume, and everything on-screen. My previous model '09 model did not pass the on-screen display via HDMI, only component or composite. What model number is your Denon?


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

inkahauts said:


> Ok help me understand then, what is the exact models of your tv and avr,mbecause its just not possible unless something weird is going on or they are all in the same family and its one of those aynet type things from samsung or sony. Then maybe it will tell you.


 Samsung 58" Plasma, PN58B650 [Living Room], and Denon 1613, HR44-200.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Laxguy said:


> I have my Denon feed audio by optical from TV out to Denon in. No HDMI runs through the Denon from Genie. It works fine.


The way you apparently have it hooked up you get zero on-screen info from the Denon....if you are watching tv from the dvr via a direct HDMI connection, there is no way for the Denon's on-screen display to show up without you changing inputs on the tv. And as others have stated, you lose the DD5.1 sound which is 50% of the whole HT experience at home.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Looks like I will have to hook it back up that way and take pictures. When I had it set (via menu settings on the AVR) that way, I didn't think it was so extraordinary, but there are a lot of disbelievers here! I don't see why it'd be so hard for volume info to be sent back to the TV via the audio optical.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

CCarncross said:


> And as others have stated, you lose the DD5.1 sound which is 50% of the whole HT experience at home.


Maybe I just have wooden ears when it comes to TV sound! But I am sure I am not losing anywhere near half of the_* useful audio*_ output. 
In fact, right now, I have just L+R speakers hooked up. This Denon has Audessey (sp?) but I haven't changed it since I moved and did have the center channel.


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## JerryMeeker (Sep 20, 2007)

texasbrit said:


> Denon receivers are notorious for their HDMI handshake issues.
> try setting the resolutions on your DVR with only 1080i/p checked, and native off - that reduces the handshaking need, and might help.
> 
> And laxguy's suggestion might not work for you. Most TVs will not output DD 5.1 on their optical output when the audio comes into the TV via HDMI.


Where do you get the information that Denon AVR's are notorious for handshake issues? I have owned several Denon AVR's, and have used them with DTV DVR's since the first DVR (HR-10). I have never had any HDMI issues. I participate in several Denon threads on AVS, and there is no recurring theme regarding HDMI issues. Please do not make claims like this without supporting evidence.

As far as the OP's issue, make sure "Video Convert" is On in the AVR to view on-screen graphics like the volume control. It has nothing to do with up-scaling, native mode on the DVR, or anything else. Of course, this only works if the DVR HDMI is connected to the AVR. If the DVR is connected to the TV, of course you don't get on-screen displays.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Laxguy said:


> I don't give a fig about 5.1. Good speakers L+R and center are my preference.


Stereo doesn't give you a center channel. That has to be synthesized by the AVR and that's certainly not what the program producers intended. Modern programming is encoded for Dolby Digital 5.1 and you're trying to use Dolby Pro Logic (multiplexed analog stereo; 1976 movie theater surround) or some workalike that isn't actually present in the encoding.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

JerryMeeker said:


> Where do you get the information that Denon AVR's are notorious for handshake issues?


Do a Google search for "Denon HDMI handshake issues". The results are very similar to the search for Samsung HDMI handshake issues.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Laxguy said:


> I don't see why it'd be so hard for volume info to be sent back to the TV via the audio optical.


It is impossible with conventional optical audio configurations because there's no emitter on the AVR end. Only sources have the emitters necessary to send a digital signal.

If you look at the optical output of a source device, you'll see a red glow behind the shutters. If you look at an optical input of a device, there's no glow.

By the same token, if there's no detector on the source device, it has "wooden ears" to anything coming back on the light pipe.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

JerryMeeker said:


> Where do you get the information that Denon AVR's are notorious for handshake issues? I have owned several Denon AVR's, and have used them with DTV DVR's since the first DVR (HR-10). I have never had any HDMI issues. I participate in several Denon threads on AVS, and there is no recurring theme regarding HDMI issues. Please do not make claims like this without supporting evidence.
> 
> As far as the OP's issue, make sure "Video Convert" is On in the AVR to view on-screen graphics like the volume control. It has nothing to do with up-scaling, native mode on the DVR, or anything else. Of course, this only works if the DVR HDMI is connected to the AVR. If the DVR is connected to the TV, of course you don't get on-screen displays.


You only have to do a web search to find this. When anyone complains about HDMI handshake issues through an A/V receiver, the first question is always "do you have a Denon" (or an Onkyo since they are made by the same company). Many people report that their DirecTV receiver ( or Dish, or cable) works fine when connected to the TV, but has handshake issues when going through their DVR. My neighbor at my last house gave up on his Denon and bought a Pioneer instead, and his HDMI handshake issues went away.
Of course there are thousands of people who have no problems at all. You'll also find reports of the same problems with other A/V receivers, but nowhere near the same extent. For example, I am not sure I have ever seen a post about this problem with Sony A/V receivers.


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## FHSPSU67 (Jan 12, 2007)

To my knowledge and on-line searches Denon and Onkyo are not made by the same company. Been following this thread since I have a Denon AVR-1611 and have no handshaking issues EXCEPT for a workaround sometimes needed for 3D.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

FHSPSU67 said:


> To my knowledge and on-line searches Denon and Onkyo are not made by the same company. Been following this thread since I have a Denon AVR-1611 and have no handshaking issues EXCEPT for a workaround sometimes needed for 3D.


You are correct. D & M Holdings is the parent of Boston Acoustics, Denon, and Marantz.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denon Denon and Onkyo merged as far back as 1939... Although they are now legally separate companies .I believe that the two brands still share some electronics, including the HDMI chipset/boards, i.e they use the same subcontractors for many of the modules (typical of Japanese manufacturers) But I might be wrong.


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## FHSPSU67 (Jan 12, 2007)

A little more info in this thread:
http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=87606


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Laxguy said:


> Looks like I will have to hook it back up that way and take pictures. When I had it set (via menu settings on the AVR) that way, I didn't think it was so extraordinary, but there are a lot of disbelievers here! I don't see why it'd be so hard for volume info to be sent back to the TV via the audio optical.


Ho-boy. Have the photo, can't seem to attach it. Or put it into the "My Media" area. Do all photos now have to be uploaded elsewhere and linked?

And in changing settings, I managed to bork HDMI handshake wrt protected content! Can't view any of the movies from the protected channels........


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## bonscott (May 1, 2007)

I narrowed the problem down tp 1080i, 480i vs 720p. When on a channel with 480 or 1080i the denon onscreen guide was working. When i changed to 720p channel it would not. i unchecked the 720p box in settings on the genie and it works. I had a HR20 and HR24 before and did not have this problem .


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

FHSPSU67 said:


> A little more info in this thread:
> http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=87606


I was obviously wrong.
Just a couple of other points.
In almost every case, connecting the DirecTV box directly to the TV worked fine, no HDMI issues.
In most cases, unchecking all resolutions except 1080i/p solved the problem also.
Sometimes, only certain models of DirecTV/cable boxes seemed to have the problem, showing that there were differences in the boxes (different manufacturers, different chipsets).
There was a theory that the issue was because the Denon HDMI implementation did not allow for the variables which the HDMI spec allows, or was not backward compatible with earlier versions of HDMI (which is required under the spec).
Note that there have been a number of firmware upgrades to various Denon boxes some of which seemed to correct the issue.

As far as TVs are concerned, most of the problems were with Sony and Samsung. Some Sony TVs required the Tv and the source (DirecTV/cable box) to be powered up in a certain order. Most of those TVs had the problem fixed by a new firmware release.
Samsung had many reported problems, caused mainly by the fact that older Samsung TVs would not support 480i/p resolution over HDMI. This was in the user manual, but hidden in the fine print of the connection specs - if the user had read the manual, MAYBE they would have found it, but it was the sort of thing that should have been in large print somewhere. Even Samsung support did not understand this was the issue. As far as I know, all recent Samsung TVs support all resolutions over HDMI.

The whole implementation of HDMI has IMHO been a mess. Not enough detail in the specs, no standardized testing (so no way of showing that an implementation was spec-compliant), and designed by computer people who had no real experience of TV/receiver technology.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Laxguy said:


> Ho-boy. Have the photo, can't seem to attach it. Or put it into the "My Media" area. Do all photos now have to be uploaded elsewhere and linked?
> 
> And in changing settings, I managed to bork HDMI handshake wrt protected content! Can't view any of the movies from the protected channels........


Don't love quoting myself, but update: Protected content all available after turning off all devices and back on.

But I really need guidance on posting pictures- either the method has changed, or the GUI, or I am going blind......


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## FHSPSU67 (Jan 12, 2007)

Hit the "More Reply Options" button to th right of "Post" and then "attach file".


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Ah, thanks! 

For those who insist it can't be done, here's what I see when I change volume via the DIRECTV remote.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bonscott said:


> I had a HR20 and HR24 before and did not have this problem .


As I asked before, were the HR2x set for native or fixed at 1080i? Setting up for a single resolution (apparently 720p excluded) will likely address your issues.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Laxguy said:


> For those who insist it can't be done, here's what I see when I change volume via the DIRECTV remote.


As I postulated earlier, that's the volume indicator from your television, not the AVR.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

The volume indicator of the TV looks nothing like that shown. 
Pretty sure you don't have that Denon just as you don't have DIRECTV®.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Here's what the volume level OSD of the Denon AVR-1613 looks like:









The appearance of the Anynet+ logo suggests an HDMI connection between the TV and the AVR.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

That is what my volume control looks like from my Denon 3312 as well, like Harsh's picture. Denon's volume is a black overlay that runs horizontally across the lower section of the screen....


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## bonscott (May 1, 2007)

The HR20 and HR24 were both set to native with all the resolution box's checked. Denon 3808 amp. Maybe a glitch on the HR34 that does not allow denon volume display with 720p.


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Thank you for the image! That's exactly what I see when I am playing music through the Denon and turn on the TV and select the AVR as input. As I mentioned earlier, the Denon is connected to the TV through HDMI, and the HR44 is connected directly to the Sammy via HDMI. I doubt that the TV would allow one HDMI to overlay another.

So, clearly I get a visual of the Denon audio on my DIRECTV shows even though it's not direct HDMI.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

bonscott said:


> The HR20 and HR24 were both set to native with all the resolution box's checked. Denon 3808 amp. Maybe a glitch on the HR34 that does not allow denon volume display with 720p.


I think you need to mess with the settings on the Denon! Your amp is fancier than mine, although if it's enough older, maybe no dice.


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

Interesting thread...


I purchased the Denon AVR E300. My HDTV is a Sony KDL 46V3000. I pretty sure the TV does NOT have the HDMI 1.4 standard (AVR). It does have 2 HDMI connections.

Looking at the Denon owner’s manual it offers another way to hook up the TV via optical digital and audio plug.

I would like to hook up the following to the Denon via HDMI:

DIRECTV Genie (HR34)
XBOX
Blu Ray



I finally got it to work....only took me about 3 hours. Looking at the back of the Sony TV...I'm using the HDMI 1 and a video out to video 1 on the Sony TV. All devices play through regular TV or with the AV using system speakers.

Not sure how it all came to together other than prayers. I looked at the setup so many times I lost count, but I do think I ended up turning the AVR function off...?


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## Half Decaf (Dec 5, 2010)

This discussion is very interesting. BTW, the volume indicator from my Denon 3311 just a plain old progressive dashed bar positioned at the bottom middle of the screen.

Question: Someone in this thread mentioned setting the R44 to display 1080i and 1080p only. Is this how most here do it? I have my R44 set for all resolutions and let my 3311 upconvert, as I've read in AVS that it excels at doing that.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

It'd really be up to you to determine; variables too many to make blanket statement.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

VaJim said:


> Interesting thread...
> 
> I purchased the Denon AVR E300. My HDTV is a Sony KDL 46V3000. I pretty sure the TV does NOT have the HDMI 1.4 standard (AVR). It does have 2 HDMI connections.
> 
> ...


Looking at your equipment you should be able to connect everything via HDMI cable and not lose the AVR function. HR34 HDMI Out to Denon CBL/SAT HDMI In. Blu-ray HDMI Out to Denon Blu-ray HDMI In. X Box HDMI Out to Denon Game HDMI In. Denon HDMI Out to Sony HDMI IN (1). The HDMI In (2) on your Sony should only be used with equipment that has a DVI Jack. Your Denon AVR has HDMI Pass Through so you can use your equipment with/without the AVR.


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

MysteryMan said:


> Looking at your equipment you should be able to connect everything via HDMI cable and not lose the AVR function. HR34 HDMI Out to Denon CBL/SAT HDMI In. Blu-ray HDMI Out to Denon Blu-ray HDMI In. X Box HDMI Out to Denon Game HDMI In. Denon HDMI Out to Sony HDMI IN (1). The HDMI In (2) on your Sony should only be used with equipment that has a DVI Jack. Your Denon AVR has HDMI Pass Through so you can use your equipment with/without the AVR.


Yes sir...I believe you're right. All I know for sure is that it works. The AVR E300 actually gave new life to my 33 year old Bose 501 speakers. Next thing, I'm going to setup the network function and be able to stream Pandora and my music library.

Thanks


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Excellent, Jim! From what will you stream your library music?


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> Excellent, Jim! From what will you stream your library music?


I'll let you know if I get it to work, but I think I did see a 'Media Server' icon in the network area.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

I've had no luck with Media Server, along with many others. Airplay is so easy to use, and/or AppleTV.


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> I've had no luck with Media Server, along with many others. Airplay is so easy to use, and/or AppleTV.


For me it worked fine. I did have to find the denon icon on my laptop which has an external drive plugged in with my music. I then clicked on it which installed the driver/software for the denon. Then I rebooted the laptop. Then went back to the tv. Pulled up the media server and then the laptop was ther with all the music


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Nice! And congrats! (But the Denon software was doing it all, no?) i.e., it's not what I think of when I see "Media Server", but I don't know where it begins or leaves off.


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> Nice! And congrats! (But the Denon software was doing it all, no?) i.e., it's not what I think of when I see "Media Server", but I don't know where it begins or leaves off.


Basically once the Denon was a part of my network and I had installed the software/driver on the laptop, the Denon then saw all my music. The first time I tried to access the music from the denon it said the drive was not authorized. This made me think to go check out the laptop. Ive had enough dealings with Windows and its network issues. I also had to reboot the laptop. The install driver/software on the laptop was like when you plug in a device and the laptop says..."hey there's a new device,,,,do you want to install it..."? Once you let windows install whatever it needs to do, you're basically allowing access to the denon (back and forth) across the network.


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