# How far can SWM8 be from dish?



## ejhuzy (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm in the process of planning a WHDVR upgrade and will probably need a SWM8 (to get the legacy ports for my SD Tivo). 

How far can the SWM8 be from dish? I've seen 40' on the web, but is that a hard limit or just a suggestion? My current 6x8 multi-switch is about 80' from the dish. I'd like to put the SWM8 in place of the 6x8.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

ejhuzy said:


> I'm in the process of planning a WHDVR upgrade and will probably need a SWM8 (to get the legacy ports for my SD Tivo).
> 
> How far can the SWM8 be from dish? I've seen 40' on the web, but is that a hard limit or just a suggestion? My current 6x8 multi-switch is about 80' from the dish. I'd like to put the SWM8 in place of the 6x8.


80' has been used before.
40' is the preferred max, because the loss between the dish and the SWiM can impact the output of the SWiM.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm 150 feet out on mine but I've a slope equalizer, signal amplifier, and a polarity locker in line to compensate for signal loss and maintain proper signal slope. Likely overkill for your set up.

You might be better served getting the dish with the SWM8 aboard it and do your splitter, PI where your existing multiswitch resides.

Or Try the SWM8 and see how it plays.

Don "plug it in and watch it fizz" Bolton



ejhuzy said:


> I'm in the process of planning a WHDVR upgrade and will probably need a SWM8 (to get the legacy ports for my SD Tivo).
> 
> How far can the SWM8 be from dish? I've seen 40' on the web, but is that a hard limit or just a suggestion? My current 6x8 multi-switch is about 80' from the dish. I'd like to put the SWM8 in place of the 6x8.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm running a SWM16 on 250' of copper-clad steel, feeding 18 receivers (2 from the legacy ports), with many of the 16 on the SWM being another 150' away. DirecTV's guidelines are very conservative, because they want to ensure there are no problems, but in reality, the systems are pretty robust.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

lugnutathome said:


> I'm 150 feet out on mine but I've a slope equalizer, signal amplifier, and a polarity locker in line to compensate for signal loss and maintain proper signal slope. Likely overkill for your set up.
> 
> You might be better served getting the dish with the SWM8 aboard it and do your splitter, PI where your existing multiswitch resides.
> 
> ...


Wow, with all of that Setup NASA could probably Track the Space Shuttle from your house!!! Do you work for the CIA??? :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

BattleZone said:


> I'm running a SWM16 on 250' of copper-clad steel, feeding 18 receivers (2 from the legacy ports), with many of the 16 on the SWM being another 150' away. DirecTV's guidelines are very conservative, because they want to ensure there are no problems, but in reality, the systems are pretty robust.


We've been through this before, so for others:
The SWiM attenuates inputs above -30 dBm, and amplifies those above -45 dBm, so the output stays at -30 dBm. After they drop below -45 dBm, the output starts dropping to the receivers.
40' would be about -4 dB to the SWiM.
100' would be about -10 dB.
250' would be about -24 dB. "What does this mean"? This is already into the gain of the SWiM for a clear day and almost any rain or clouds will cause the receivers to start to receive lower levels, as there is only maybe 6 dB of gain left.
If it rains where you are, keep the cable lengths as short as you can.
DirecTV did design these to work within a usable range, but 250' isn't it.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

I could tell you but then oh ummm

My home is over 5,200 sq ft but only about 1200 of that is on a second story and it is only 25 ft wide. Tall walkspace underneath the central section, garage under the north end. Looks like an apartment complex from outside.

From the north kitchen/dining area (and video game room) the hall passes 4 guest bedrooms. This hall we call the green mile That drops into vast full width room "Field of Dreams" thats 43 ft deep open to Office Space and the Entry hall adding another 22 ft to the depth. My master bedroom "Sleepy Hollow" is 736 sq ft not counting the walk in closet, bath, or workout rooms adjacent to it.

The house has 2 full kitchen and dining areas, large mud room laundry area, sewing room, butler's pantry, small living area adjacent to the south dining hall. It's just heaven for a home and I feel so fortunate to have such a place... (we'd raised 3 kids in a 1450 sq ft home and needed the real estate now for spouses and grandkids)

When I bought the place in Feb 05 I contracted for installation of coax and cat5e networks from a low voltage electrical shop and the high point facing south for the dish takes 150 ft of coax down to the head end they set up in the walkspace. Workout room's line is 191 ft from the multiswitch.

Pretty much figured from the get go that a DTV installer would be royally screwed setting up the infrastructure and I wanted it solid. Its cost a lot to initially install and then reconfigure for wideband service 2 years later (had to split off terrestrial to its own network), and again for SWM conversion 2 more years later.

It means the DTV installers just aim the dish and verify the issues I've already isolated and communicated. It's scope is really a commercial install but I'm a residential customer. Caught in the middle. It can be frustrating and it can be expensive but I live in paradise so that is just part of the fee for doing so.

Anyhow I've too much wire strung out for the limited gain on a 2 SWM output SWM16 and I've a hardwired network in place alongside the coax drops so I run MRV (OK WHDVR) off dual SWM 8s that offer 4 outputs using my Ethernet and REALLY hope DTV doesn't outlaw Ethernet till they can feed my infrastructure reliably with their technology. Likely I'll always be on that commercial/residential edge though.

Everything is big *real* big. Don't get me started about the costs of re roofing or painting:nono2:

No CIA, just a DBA/Application Engineer at Columbia Sportswear CO for the past 17 years.

Don "lucky to live in paradise" Bolton



richierich said:


> Wow, with all of that Setup NASA could probably Track the Space Shuttle from your house!!! Do you work for the CIA??? :lol:


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

lugnutathome said:


> I could tell you but then oh ummm
> 
> My home is over 5,200 sq ft but only about 1200 of that is on a second story and it is only 25 ft wide. Tall walkspace underneath the central section, garage under the north end. Looks like an apartment complex from outside.
> 
> ...


:eek2:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lugnutathome said:


> Don "lucky to live in paradise" Bolton


Bet it rains "just a bit" in Woodburn, OR too, and you don't suffer much from raindfade either.

Build a marginal system and "guess what", you get marginal results.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Rain? Just a wee bit yep. I don't have a mud room for nothing:grin: 3 dogs, surrounded by over 1,000 acres of working farmland yeah mud, lots of mud.

And no rain fade since I had the SWM conversion even though we've had some killer downpours from time to time.

Of course come summer I get "bird fade" some afternoons as the adjacent cherry farmer uses predatory bird sounds on a loop to keep the flocks out of his crops.

My high roof makes for a great regroup landing site. Sometimes it sounds like the replicators from Stargate SG1 are on my roof:eek2: Then some sound and the rustle of wings, darkness falls over one side of the house as the flock departs.

They get in front of the dish from time to time and I get these momentary wipes in signal but they don't linger.

Don "fun to sneak out, clap my hands and watch" Bolton



veryoldschool said:


> Bet it rains "just a bit" in Woodburn, OR too, and you don't suffer much from raindfade either.
> 
> Build a marginal system and "guess what", you get marginal results.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Bet it rains "just a bit" in Woodburn, OR too, and you don't suffer much from raindfade either.
> 
> Build a marginal system and "guess what", you get marginal results.


I agree with you completely, and understand exactly what you're saying. Also, California isn't Florida or Ohio, so our storms usually aren't like those in other places. But having said that, we recently had a pretty good-sized storm, the first of the season, and had no problems with the system in question nor others that are "pushing it" compared to the published specs.

Of course, minimizing connection points and properly installing connectors and things like that certainly play a big part when you are exceeding the specs. You can't be sloppy and careless and do what we do.

There are solutions (amps) in case we have issues, but we've kind of figured out what the real thresholds really are, and have virtually no problems. Obviously, YMMV.


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## Kevin F (May 9, 2010)

lugnutathome said:


> I could tell you but then oh ummm
> 
> My home is over 5,200 sq ft but only about 1200 of that is on a second story and it is only 25 ft wide. Tall walkspace underneath the central section, garage under the north end. Looks like an apartment complex from outside.
> 
> ...


I don't mean to be a forum stalker, but wow, thats impressive.

Edited to say forum stalker because I realize it sounded a little weird at first hahah sorry


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Just keep in mind that with the WHDVR Upgrade, DirecTV is going to want to use a SWiM-LNB and swap out the Tivo's for R16's. It might take a bit of convincing the CSR to put the SWiM-8 as a line item on your order.

- Merg


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

BattleZone said:


> I agree with you completely, and understand exactly what you're saying. Also, California isn't Florida or Ohio, so our storms usually aren't like those in other places. But having said that, we recently had a pretty good-sized storm, the first of the season, and had no problems with the system in question nor others that are "pushing it" compared to the published specs.
> 
> Of course, minimizing connection points and properly installing connectors and things like that certainly play a big part when you are exceeding the specs. You can't be sloppy and careless and do what we do.
> 
> There are solutions (amps) in case we have issues, but we've kind of figured out what the real thresholds really are, and have virtually no problems. Obviously, YMMV.


I've read enough of your posts to know you do a quality job, "but" to post to the unknowing that 250' between a dish/LNB and any SWiM is a workable solution, just doesn't seem correct to me.
What most aren't going to know is the system reserve power that is "useful" for weather.
I don't think anybody needs to worry about the difference between a 4 dB loss and 10 dB, but the difference between a 4 dB and a 24 dB loss IS something important.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

I got it pre edit.:grin:

Thanks! I really do feel fortunate to be here. Walking down the green Mile from the game room (Vegas) out into the Field of Dreams always me think that.

Don "time to watch some TV" Bolton



chilibball said:


> I don't mean to be a forum stalker, but wow, thats impressive.
> 
> Edited to say forum stalker because I realize it sounded a little weird at first hahah sorry


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

lugnutathome said:


> ...
> *Anyhow I've too much wire strung out for the limited gain on a 2 SWM output SWM16 and I've a hardwired network in place alongside the coax drops so I run MRV (OK WHDVR) off dual SWM 8s that offer 4 outputs using my Ethernet and REALLY hope DTV doesn't outlaw Ethernet till they can feed my infrastructure reliably with their technology.* Likely I'll always be on that commercial/residential edge though.


Unless it's just phrased incorrectly, how do you run MRV off two SWM-8 modules' dual outputs by using ethernet?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

The Merg said:


> Just keep in mind that with the WHDVR Upgrade, DirecTV is going to want to use a SWiM-LNB and swap out the Tivo's for R16's. *It might take a bit of convincing the CSR to put the SWiM-8 as a line item on your order.*
> 
> - Merg


IIRC in think BattleZone once stated on another thread that DirecTV has a pretty much no compromise policy on handing out the SWM-8 modules nowadays. That they are only to be reserved for customers with SWM installs (for 8 or less tuners of course) needing both a SlimLine and the International (95W) dish.

But does DirecTV make exceptions to this for situations involving extensive coax runs from the LNB to the receiver(s)?


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Phrasing is off a bit. I have dual cascaded SWM8s to support the sat signal distribution and my receivers are WHDVR enabled via a hardwired LAN.

I had been running MRV off my LAN while using a Spaun 12 port powered wide band multiswitch but was wanting to add another DVR so I upped to the dual SWM8s. This had a nice side effect in that it enhanced my picture images noticeably in addition to adding 4 more tuner capability on my existing wiring infrastructure.

So technically my dual SWM8s have no bearing on the WHDVR traffic itself.

My terrestrial coax network, satellite coax network, cat5e network, phone line distribution, and security system all originate at the same point and all the services are available in each room at the same wall plates. Very professional, easy to work on and swap out pieces and scalable beyond 16 tuners if I get that obsessive...:sure:

The SWM8 units have a SWM1 and SWM2 outputs and both have the same auto adjusting gain levels. A SWM16 in concept uses these second ports to mate the 2 SWM8s leaving only 2 SWM1 adjustable gain ports available to support the infrastructure. (I'm sure I've gone technically off the mark on that describe but the SWM16 only has 2 SWM auto gain service ports)

With 12 drops and a number of very long runs, (191, 184, 146, 2 at 85, etc) ft in length spreading the load across 4 auto gain ports ensures the SWM8 as a whole is not straining at full capacity on any port giving me available gain boost for weather variants.

Technically speaking I can run them on just 2 ports using 8 way splitters (I've 9 receivers) but the line loss to the farthest receiver shows it to be below required spec.

I've also some issues with vintage HR20-700s that mean they can reside only on 1 of the 2 switches and function. These are located where they need to be to preclude somebody from blocking their top cooling vents. Somewhat limits the load per SWM8 unit. This particular issue seems to limited to my infrastructure and I like the OTA tuners so...

Don "it's not always been a bed of roses" Bolton


HoTat2 said:


> Unless it's just phrased incorrectly, how do you run MRV off two SWM-8 modules' dual outputs by using ethernet?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

ejhuzy said:


> I'm in the process of planning a WHDVR upgrade and will probably need a SWM8 (to get the legacy ports for my SD Tivo).
> 
> How far can the SWM8 be from dish? I've seen 40' on the web, but is that a hard limit or just a suggestion? My current 6x8 multi-switch is about 80' from the dish. I'd like to put the SWM8 in place of the 6x8.


This is kind of generic as for any one setup these will vary slightly, but it should give you a good "rule of thumb" that should help:


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> IIRC in think BattleZone once stated on another thread that DirecTV has a pretty much no compromise policy on handing out the SWM-8 modules nowadays. That they are only to be reserved for customers with SWM installs (for 8 or less tuners of course) needing both a SlimLine and the International (95W) dish.
> 
> But does DirecTV make exceptions to this for situations involving extensive coax runs from the LNB to the receiver(s)?


That was kinda my point. While it is policy to only use SWiM-LNB to MRV upgrades, there are always exceptions and you might be able to persuade a CSR that you are one of them. 

- Merg


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> This is kind of generic as for any one setup these will vary slightly, but it should give you a good "rule of thumb" that should help:
> 
> View attachment 23889


Say VOS, some clarity here please; 

While I'm certainly impressed with "lugnutathome" setup above, his mention though of having the advantage of the dual outputs on the SWM-8s over the single outs for a SWM-16 is better for load balancing purposes brings up a question.

You once told me that those two SWM outputs on the SWM-8 module were just an internal 1x2 splitter with power passing on the #1 port?


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I must be one of those Exceptions or since I got mine when WHDVR first came out and wanted to Upgrade to DECA/SWM and I told them I was going to have probably 10 to 12 DVRs when I got done and finished and I was going to have 7 when the installer got thru, so he installed a SWM LNB plus 2 SWM8s plus DECA to all of my DVRs and my Router and also I got a Free HR24-500 to replace my HR20-100 which wasn't working very good so I Made Off Like A Bandit.

However, I did have to redo his wiring from the Power Inserter to the SWM8s and reposition a couple of outputs from the SWM2 so I wouldn't have more than 8 Tuners on each SWM8 which I had when the Installer left. This was one of his First Big WHDVR/DECA/SWM Installs and I actually had to help him understand some of the things going on such as the MRV Status didn't Populate right away and he thought something was wrong and was upset but I told him to setup my other DVR and by the time he was thru it would see all DVRs which it did and he was relieved.

Thanks to HDTVFAN0001 for his help in helping me get the wiring straightened out as it was dropping DVRs occasionally.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Say VOS, some clarity here please;
> 
> While I'm certainly impressed with "lugnutathome" setup above, his mention though of having the advantage of the dual outputs on the SWM-8s over the single outs for a SWM-16 is better for load balancing purposes brings up a question.
> 
> You once told me that those two SWM outputs on the SWM-8 module were just an internal 1x2 splitter with power passing on the #1 port?


Yes, that is what a SWM8 has.
There isn't any advantage of using 2 SWM8 over one SWiM-16, and "in fact" the SWiM-16 has the DECA crossover that you don't have with 2 SWM8s.
With a SWM8, using only one output means the second is terminated and this means 3 dB is simply going into a load and being wasted.
"If there is" an advantage to a SWM8, it's that by using both outputs, you use smaller splitters, but "overall" the loss limits are the same.
Putting this another way: if you only use one of the SWM8 outputs, then you start at -33 dBm or less, where the SWiMLNB & SWiM-16 is -30 dBm.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

All I know is that I asked for a SWM16 and they didn't have one so he used 2 SWM8s and I looked at my PHY MESH RATES and they looked really Fantastic so I am losing very little according to the numbers I got and my MRV works Fantastic well actually Flawless so I am a Very Happy Camper.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

I was under the understanding the 2 SWM ports were equal and independent. Got that impression from you when I was deploying my SWM upgrade.

Don "HMMM" Bolton



veryoldschool said:


> Yes, that is what a SWM8 has.
> There isn't any advantage of using 2 SWM8 over one SWiM-16, and "in fact" the SWiM-16 has the DECA crossover that you don't have with 2 SWM8s.
> With a SWM8, using only one output means the second is terminated and this means 3 dB is simply going into a load and being wasted.
> "If there is" an advantage to a SWM8, it's that by using both outputs, you use smaller splitters, but "overall" the loss limits are the same.
> Putting this another way: if you only use one of the SWM8 outputs, then you start at -33 dBm or less, where the SWiMLNB & SWiM-16 is -30 dBm.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

richierich said:


> All I know is that I asked for a SWM16 and they didn't have one so he used 2 SWM8s and I looked at my PHY MESH RATES and they looked really Fantastic so I am losing very little according to the numbers I got and my MRV works Fantastic well actually Flawless so I am a Very Happy Camper.


Let's not mix up "SWiM" and DECA. They have little to nothing to do with each other.
PHY MESH RATES are DECA and have everything to do with the levels being within the loss range [different ranges than SWiM] and that their signal to noise ratio is good.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lugnutathome said:


> I was under the understanding the 2 SWM ports were equal and independent. Got that impression from you when I was deploying my SWM upgrade.
> 
> Don "HMMM" Bolton


Guess I wasn't clear to you then, because while they are "equal", they aren't independent in any way. The SWM8 "merely" has an internal splitter that the LNB & SWiM-16 don't. The SWiM-16 outputs are completely independent because these are really two different SWM8s, with the DECA crossover bridging them.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Wow! I've been full of crap then. Only "gain I get is being able to use smaller splitters or none at all in one case to help keep the numbers up. Still couldn't do that on the 16. I'm assuming a 4 on one out and a 2 nets less loss than a single 8 way unit.

Don "very interesting" Bolton



veryoldschool said:


> Guess I wasn't clear to you then, because while they are "equal", they aren't independent in any way. The SWM8 "merely" has an internal splitter that the LNB & SWiM-16 don't. The SWiM-16 outputs are completely independent because these are really two different SWM8s, with the DECA crossover bridging them.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lugnutathome said:


> I'm assuming a 4 on one out and a 2 nets less loss than a single 8 way unit.
> 
> Don "very interesting" Bolton


So the SWM8 has one 2-way and:
A 4-way off this is very close to using one 8-way off the SWiM-16 or SWiMLNB.
The other output with a 2-way is very close to using a 4-way off the SWiM-16 or SWiMLNB.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

lugnutathome said:


> I was under the understanding the 2 SWM ports were equal and independent. Got that impression from you when I was deploying my SWM upgrade.
> 
> Don "HMMM" Bolton


Yeah, that's what I once thought;

That they were independent gain regulated outputs and thereby no DECA continuity between them.

But then I read sometime back how regular forum poster here "bobneilson" was getting an acceptable DECA connection between both outputs on his now defunct SWM-5 leftover from the early testing days. And that's when VOS explained it was only an internal 1x2 splitter on both the obsolete SWM-5 and 8. :sure:

Optimized for DECA with the green label variety of course, but still only a 1x2 splitter, not independent -30dbm agc regulated outputs.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

richierich said:


> I must be one of those Exceptions or since I got mine when WHDVR first came out and wanted to Upgrade to DECA/SWM and I told them I was going to have probably 10 to 12 DVRs when I got done and finished and I was going to have 7 when the installer got thru, *so he installed a SWM LNB plus 2 SWM8s *plus DECA to all of my DVRs and my Router and also I got a Free HR24-500 to replace my HR20-100 which wasn't working very good so I Made Off Like A Bandit.
> 
> However, I did have to redo his wiring from the Power Inserter to the SWM8s and reposition a couple of outputs from the SWM2 so I wouldn't have more than 8 Tuners on each SWM8 which I had when the Installer left. *This was one of his First Big WHDVR/DECA/SWM Installs and I actually had to help him understand some of the things going on* such as the MRV Status didn't Populate right away and he thought something was wrong and was upset but I told him to setup my other DVR and by the time he was thru it would see all DVRs which it did and he was relieved.
> 
> Thanks to HDTVFAN0001 for his help in helping me get the wiring straightened out as it was dropping DVRs occasionally.


I hope you meant he installed a "legacy LNB" and two SWM-8s or else you really must of had to help the installer understand some things ...


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Maybe I meant an SL3 LNB but I do know that he had to swap out the LNB and I did get Two SWM8s.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

richierich said:


> Maybe I meant an SL3 LNB but I do know that he had to swap out the LNB and I did get Two SWM8s.


100% you don't have a SWiMLNB.
An SL3 works into splitters to feed two SWM8s, but a SWiM-16 would have been better, though I'd bet nobody had one when you have your upgrade.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> 100% you don't have a SWiMLNB.
> An SL3 works into splitters to feed two SWM8s, but a SWiM-16 would have been better, though I'd bet nobody had one when you have your upgrade.


Yes, I believe he put in an SL3 LNB if I remember correctly and Two SWM8s because he didn't have the SWM16 because this was early on and I was one of the First to do this SWM/DECA/WHDVR Upgrade.

And it only cost me $75 which is a Steal, er I mean Deal.


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## ejhuzy (Jun 19, 2006)

Guys,

Thanks for all the responses. To those that warned me I might not get a SWM8, I'm mentally prepared for that (from reading these threads). I did call DTV to talk about it, but the CSR just kept saying the installer will have one and will probably use it. Hmm. So my install is this Friday, we'll see.

So I guess from reading, my < 80' is probably ok. Not optimal, but ok.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

ejhuzy said:


> Guys,
> 
> Thanks for all the responses. To those that warned me I might not get a SWM8, I'm mentally prepared for that (from reading these threads). I did call DTV to talk about it, but the CSR just kept saying the installer will have one and will probably use it. Hmm. So my install is this Friday, we'll see.
> 
> So I guess from reading, my < 80' is probably ok. Not optimal, but ok.


As I said in post #2, it works. Maybe you won't get the longest coax runs from it to work, but for "normal" lengths, you'll be fine.


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## ejhuzy (Jun 19, 2006)

Closing the loop on my WHDVR install. Tech was here yesterday and sure enough no SWM-8 on my install order even though CSR said there would be. I explained my desire for one to the tech and he said no problem. He changed the install to use a SWM-8. I'd say my SWM-8 is 80' from the dish. So far my signal strengths are good, all in the 90's.

Thanks for the help everybody.


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