# 921 Upgrade opinions wanted.



## Peluso (Sep 11, 2002)

I know it's a bit premature to discuss upgrading the 921 but after reading the various reports from CES I became very excited with the possibility of adding a DVD-R drive to the unit. Let me explain myself. 

To me the perfect technology to Timeshift NTSC broadcasts is PVR's. The perfect technology to archive is DVD-R's. Still neither technology can beat the VCR which allows for timeshifting and archiving. Just now some 1st generation machines that combine both functions are starting to appear. They are lacking in a few areas but 2nd generation should take care of that. So I should be happy, right? Well no, not when you consider that we are moving to a HDTV world. 

Along comes reports of the 921 and I get excited as I've been waiting for an HDTV PVR. Then I hear about the potential for the DVD burner upgrade and I just about hit the celing with excitement. (Of course I've bored my wife to tears talking about the possibilities) That's when the question hit me. I'd be perfectly happy with throwing an existing DVD burner into the receiver so I could make a 480p anamorphic archived copy of an HDTV program, I think 480p is 'good enough' for something i'd only watch once or twice a year. But It got me thinking, is it good enough for the rest of you? so my questions are: 

1) Would you be happy with a standard 480P DVD for HDTV archiving purposes? would it be good enough? or would you get a HD-DVD as soon as it's available? 

2) Do you think 480P recording from an HDTV source would be easy to impliment because the studios would be more willing to allow their product to be copied at lower resolutions than what they are broadcast at? 

I've started a similar thread in the technical talk section because i'd like to know more about the limits of current DVD recording technology where widescreen recording is concerned. Please check out that thread if you have a strong technical background. 

Thanks! Mike P.


----------



## Ken_F (Jan 13, 2003)

> I'd be perfectly happy with throwing an existing DVD burner into the receiver so I could make a 480p anamorphic archived copy of an HDTV program, I think 480p is 'good enough' for something i'd only watch once or twice a year. But It got me thinking, is it good enough for the rest of you? so my questions are:


I'm not sure I quite understand you. You can't simply buy a DVD-R and install connect it to the 921. It won't work without software support from Dish.



> 1) Would you be happy with a standard 480P DVD for HDTV archiving purposes? would it be good enough? or would you get a HD-DVD as soon as it's available?


At CES, Panasonic and Toshiba said blue-laser recording (allowing you to record HDTV on new HD-DVD disk) was about two years away. A HD-DVD format based on a red-laser *could* be adopted by the end of this year, according to Toshiba, but this will be for read-only, not recording.



> 2) Do you think 480P recording from an HDTV source would be easy to impliment because the studios would be more willing to allow their product to be copied at lower resolutions than what they are broadcast at?


Well, the HDTV D-VHS recorders use Firewire. These will be replaced by HDTV DVD recorders (blue-laser) in two, or more likely, three years. They'll probably use Firewire as well.

There exists no technology in the 921 that would permit one to reduce the HDTV signal and its associated bandwidth to a lower-bandwidth 480p signal for recording. The 921 can output 480p, if that's all your set can do, but the signal itself that the 921 sees and processes internally still accounts for the full 13-19Mbps bandwidth of the original 1080i or 720p material. This means that even if the 921 supported DVD recording today (which it doesn't), you couldn't record more than 30-40 minutes of a HDTV channel to disk. I imagine that recording HDTV to DVD using a 921, or any other receiver, will probably not be a reasonable proposition until blue-laser recorders are out in 2-3 years.


----------



## Guest (Jan 13, 2003)

What is the rush to change a product that isn't even to the market place yet. With DISH's history it will take 6 months after it even gets to the market before it will work by then you might have the blue lasers. More than likely we will have a working TIVO before then so decide which product you may be using.


----------



## Peluso (Sep 11, 2002)

Remember this is a theory question, I posed it here because the possibility exists that theory can become reality with the 921. 

The Question still stands and hasn't been ansered. Is current DVD quality good enough for you to archive your favorite HDTV shows, or do you think it's not good enough? For me, considering what I record and what I watch, DVD-R and 480P on a High Def set would be good enough and I don't see myself getting excited about Blue laser or any of the new HDTV recording formats. I was wondering if I was in the minority or if everyone felt similarly about it.


----------



## Ken_F (Jan 13, 2003)

Peluso,

I answered your question above, but perhaps it got lost in the confusion. Again, DVD-R/DVD-RW/DVD+RW only has the capacity to store 30-40 minutes of HDTV. You can't record HDTV as 480p to a DVD-R. Perhaps I misunderstand you, but you seem to be saying that you want to record HD material, but 480P recording is good enough for you; that's all good, but you can't record a native HD signal as 480P.


----------



## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Don't think I'd put a DVD-R in there anyway. I'm sure I'd end up adding another 250 gigs to the front bay. My new Blue-Laser DVD recorder will get connected via firewire.

It has potential (I would have been VERY upset with a non upgradable hard drive). So, now to consider the pros and cons for the 921 vs a HTPC w/ HD 8vsb and cheeper E* HD box.


----------



## Peluso (Sep 11, 2002)

Ken, 

In theory, Why can't you down convert the signal to 480p (or 480i for that matter)? If I understand correctly the Box does it to output to a regular television, so why not capture that image it's down converting, and burn it to a DVD-R. If I understand the recordable DVD technology it should be able to record 2hrs at that resolution. 

Your right, I do want to record HDTV, but I do think today's DVD quality is good enough for a personal video archive. The real point of my thread is if you could record HDTV at DVD quality, is it good enough for you (and I mean all of you reading this)?


----------



## Ken_F (Jan 13, 2003)

> If I understand correctly the Box does it to output to a regular television, so why not capture that image it's down converting, and burn it to a DVD-R.


Ahh, but this capturing is the hard part. In order to capture the original 1080i or 720p datastream at a lower resolution like 480p, the unit would need an encoder (to create the new MPEG2 datastream which uses a lower bit rate), which the 921 does not have. And these [email protected] encoders (supporting 480p from higher quality) material are not cheap; indeed, they are currently used in boxes costing many thousands of dollars.

The encoders necessary to do what you ask won't reach reasonable cost levels until they are used in mass market devices. Standard [email protected] encoders (supporting 480i and less), which were expensive five years ago, now cost next to nothing because there are many vendors out with these chips, and because they are used in a wide array of mass-market devices (PVRs, DVD-recording boxes to record standard TV, PC cards to record TV, etc). However, the only current market for [email protected] encoders is the broadcast market (HD cameras, production) where equipment costs thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars, so obviously the chips cost a good deal more.

I do think when blue-laser recording comes in 2-3 years, the [email protected] encoders will come down in price. By then, we'll probably have new standards for compression, hopefully with encoding performed in hardware by reasonably priced silicon.


----------



## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Peluso _
> The Question still stands and hasn't been ansered. Is current DVD quality good enough for you to archive your favorite HDTV shows, or do you think it's not good enough?


I've done some of the same wondering as you, and if I bother to spend the money for HD, I probably won't be satisfied with the SD-quality capability of DVD-R, even though I would love to be able to archive material off the hard drive.

If it ever becomes possible to archive the 25GB or so you need for an HD movie to some kind of direct access removable storage, it will be nice if the 921 (or other HD PVR) will support it. Note I said "direct access" to rule out D-VHS tape systems, but it's really the fragility of tape that worries me about that.

x


----------



## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ken_F _
> Ahh, but this capturing is the hard part. In order to capture the original 1080i or 720p datastream at a lower resolution like 480p, the unit would need an encoder (to create the new MPEG2 datastream which uses a lower bit rate), which the 921 does not have. And these [email protected] encoders (supporting 480p from higher quality) material are not cheap; indeed, they are currently used in boxes costing many thousands of dollars.


It's true if you want realtime encoding, but if you don't mind the approx 3x slower possible with decent software, you don't have to spend tons. In fact, if you already have a Mac with a SuperDrive and iDVD, you've got everything you need (not that the Mac is free, of course, but there's Linux SW around, too).

By the way, there's a realtime MPEG2 encoder available for under $400 called (I think) ADS USB Instant DVD or something like that. If I recall, it will do 480p, but I don't know if it takes digital input as opposed to S-Video and composite.

x


----------



## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ken_F _
> I imagine that recording HDTV to DVD using a 921, or any other receiver, will probably not be a reasonable proposition until blue-laser recorders are out in 2-3 years.


I hope you're right about that, but my impression is that the higher density optical media will take longer than that (there are several competing standards still being battled out). And it may take quite a while more before there are affordable recordable systems at those densities. Still, it will be nice when it arrives.

x


----------



## Ken_F (Jan 13, 2003)

xgrep,



> In fact, if you already have a Mac with a SuperDrive and iDVD, you've got everything you need (not that the Mac is free, of course, but there's Linux SW around, too).


You can't downconvert a 1080i source to 480p with iDVD. I am fairly certain you can't do it with Final Cut Pro either. I've heard of HDTV editing type products for the Mac, but these aren't cheap, and aren't anything close to real-time.



> By the way, there's a realtime MPEG2 encoder available for under $400 called (I think) ADS USB Instant DVD or something like that. If I recall, it will do 480p, but I don't know if it takes digital input as opposed to S-Video and composite.


There are realtime MPEG2 decoders in all sorts of boxes, include PVRs (Tivo, etc). These are [email protected] encoders, which can't deal with 480p encoding of a HD source.


----------



## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

You're right on all counts. But many of the MPEG2 encoders (at least the ones I mentioned) will encode 480p (they won't downconvert from 1080i, as you say). But if you plan to store it at 480p, then perhaps it would be possible to record it initially at 480p on the 921. Of course you'd never be able to see it in HD, but if you're already willing to give that up for archiving, that doesn't sound like a big loss. I didn't understand that you'd want to archive to DVD in 480p from material saved in 1080i. It doesn't seem like it would be worth much to save it in 1080i in the first place. Then again, in anticipation of some kind of suitable archival storage, this probably isn't such a bad idea. So yes, you're right, downconverter/encoders that will do that are expensive.

x


----------



## EvanS (Mar 27, 2002)

MY hope for the extra drive bay would be that you are able to manage the disks and their usage, to some extent.
For me this would mean being able to select which drive to record to...therefore being able to archive and store specials and/or movies to a clean "save only" drive, while using the other for daily recording.
When the "save" drive is full, pull it out and plop in another. Seems pretty secure to do this to...not very likely that I would set up a pirate 921-users distribution network :hi:


----------

