# 922 HDCP enforcement on HBO & Cinemax & possible solution



## JimD

I noticed that my new 922 would not allow me to watch HBO or Cinemax in the evenings (maybe during the daytime too - but I don't recall if I ever tried). It would allow me to record shows on these channels - and watch them later, but it would not allow me to watch them live! How weird is that?

If I attempted to watch one of them live, a box (098?) would pop up that said something to the effect that the receiver has detected that the TV does not support HDCP, and the content requires this - so I am being disallowed access.

My 722 never did this, and it had been connected to this same TV (a Samsung HLT-6189s - which is HDCP compliant) over a period of 2 or 3 years, so it seems this is unique 922 behavior. That or it is new HBO / Cinemax behavior.

Anyway - if anyone else is seeing this same issue I may have a solution for you. I found the cause (in my case) was that the cable between the TV and the 922 was a DVI-HDMI cable with a HDMI-DVI adapter on the DVI end. So the ends were both HDMI but it wasn't really an HDMI cable.

Replacing the cable with an actual HDMI-HDMI cable solved this problem for me. Most of you will probably say "duh", but I forgot that this weird cable was in there when Dish installed my 922. The Dish installer did not consider it.


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## brucegrr

When these moments happen to me I say to myself "BRILLIANT!" 

We have a lot of cables these days. It is easy to forget.


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## JimD

Update. I was wrong! Tonight, same issue! Unplugging and re-plugging the HDMI cable at one end resolved it this time.
This is not good. I will need to contact support again. Anyone else seeing this problem?


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## Stewart Vernon

I haven't... but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that some of the HBO channels might start enforcing HDCP... so it could be we are finally seeing that implementation, and then finding some Dish receiver/HDTV incompatibilities coming to the surface.

Just a guess, since I haven't seen this myself... but IF true, I'm sure Dish would be on top of it as people report the issue if it is repeatable.


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## [email protected] Network

Stewart Vernon said:


> I haven't... but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that some of the HBO channels might start enforcing HDCP... so it could be we are finally seeing that implementation, and then finding some Dish receiver/HDTV incompatibilities coming to the surface.
> 
> Just a guess, since I haven't seen this myself... but IF true, I'm sure Dish would be on top of it as people report the issue if it is repeatable.


It is known that HBO and Cinemax recently added HDCP to all of their channels. If the TV/receiver shows the HDCP message, the fix is to use component cables instead of HDMI (may need a reset after, the HDMI needs to be completely disconnected)


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## Bill R

[email protected] Network said:


> It is known that HBO and Cinemax recently added HDCP to all of their channels. If the TV/receiver shows the HDCP message, the fix is to use component cables instead of HDMI (may need a reset after, the HDMI needs to be completely disconnected)


That isn't a fix. It is a work-around that will result in a poorer picture (HDMI vs. component) for the subscriber. The REAL fix is for Dish (and other providers) to tell the HBO's of the world that this is unacceptable to customers. If the providers don't support us (complain to HBO) THEY are going to be the big losers. People will not subscribe to channels that they can not watch the way (FULL HD via HDMI) the way they want.


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## umbertob

[email protected] Network said:


> It is known that HBO and Cinemax recently added HDCP to all of their channels. If the TV/receiver shows the HDCP message, the fix is to use component cables instead of HDMI (may need a reset after, the HDMI needs to be completely disconnected)


Somewhat related: Last night I connected the component video out from my 922 (with an optical audio cable) directly to my AVR, and the HDMI out to my Logitech Revue /. GoogleTV, and from the Revue to another HDMI input on the receiver. I expected both HDMI and component to work together, but it doesn't seem like they do. HDMI works fine through the Revue, but when I switch the receiver to the "direct" component input from the 922 I can't switch channels, the guide comes up but freezes, etc. Eventually the screen goes blank and the only way I can get the 922 back is to switch to the HDMI input of the Revue, and back to the component input. Why is that? Has this always been the case or is this the result of this HDCP thingie? I looked up older posts on this forum and I was under the impression you could output HD video from both HDMI and component outputs of the 922 concurrently.

PS: The reason I am doing this is because the Logitech Revue, which I otherwise like, does not pass through Dolby Digital audio to my receiver. So, I wanted another input on my AVR to come directly from the 922 to enjoy DD encoded programs, without the Revue getting in the way. Since the 922 only has one HDMI out and the Revue only accepts HDMI as an input, I used component.


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## sigma1914

Bill R said:


> That isn't a fix. It is a work-around that will result in a poorer picture (HDMI vs. component) for the subscriber. The REAL fix is for Dish (and other providers) to tell the HBO's of the world that this is unacceptable to customers. If the providers don't support us (complain to HBO) THEY are going to be the big losers. People will not subscribe to channels that they can not watch the way (FULL HD via HDMI) the way they want.


It's not a poorer picture with component...1080i is 1080i. Your "FULL HD" comment doesn't apply, either. This isn't BluRays where you need HDMI for 1080p material. HBO (and all other channels) are sending 1080i max, which component can fully handle.



> But if you're talking about a DVR or set-top box, the only advantage HDMI gives you is convenience--because one moderately thin cable carries both sound and picture, you don't have to mess with as many plugs. I'm not saying that convenience isn't important, I'm just pointing out that if there's a practical reason not to use HDMI, you don't have to worry about it.
> 
> A Component Video connection--which is comprised of three color-coded RCA jacks--is perfectly capable of transmitting 720p and 1080i video streams. That's all you're going to get from broadcast, cable, or satellite sources, anyway.


http://www.pcworld.com/article/221109/hdmi_vs_component_video.html


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## umbertob

More on topic, I also started seeing that "TV is not compatible with HDCP" pop-up message since yesterday when tuning to certain channels (HBO for sure, but I could swear the error popped up even when I tuned to a local channel here in L.A.) If it helps Dish troubleshooting the issue - I'm assuming it may be hardware related, or is it unsuitable HDMI cables I am using? - my equipment is 922 > Logitech Revue > Denon AVR-A100 > Panasonic P65GT30 plasma. Rebooting the 922 or disconnecting and reconnecting one of the HDMI cable usually works to eliminate the pop-up, but only for a while.


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## P Smith

I would try a right HDMI splitter ( what is support HDCP): 1 to 3 or to 4 outputs. 
Or eliminate all those 'middleman' and connect HDMI cable from 922 to your TV.
Need to avoid delays in HDCP negotiation process, what is usual cause for the messages.


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## umbertob

P Smith said:


> I would try a right HDMI splitter ( what is support HDCP): 1 to 3 or to 4 outputs.
> Or eliminate all those 'middleman' and connect HDMI cable from 922 to your TV.
> Need to avoid delays in HDCP negotiation process, what is usual cause for the messages.


Thanks, makes sense. I tried looking for such a 1-input to 2+ outputs HDMI splitter before, couldn't find one. Any links?

PS: Never mind. I'll give this one a shot and see: http://www.amazon.com/HDMI-Splitter-Amplifier-Dual-Display/dp/B0015YRMXI


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## gtal98

umbertob said:


> PS: The reason I am doing this is because the Logitech Revue, which I otherwise like, does not pass through Dolby Digital audio to my receiver. So, I wanted another input on my AVR to come directly from the 922 to enjoy DD encoded programs, without the Revue getting in the way. Since the 922 only has one HDMI out and the Revue only accepts HDMI as an input, I used component.


I'm not sure on your AVR, but mine will allow me to assign the video from and HDMI and the audio from an optical port, so you could still use the HDMI for video and get the DD from the optical - might be worth looking into.

Also, HDCP issues aren't necessarily Dish's problem - they could be real HDCP issues (old TV, incompatible cables, etc.). Now if everyone with a 922 suddenly has the problem then it's a Dish issue, otherwise I'm going to guess the occasional problem is specific to the users setup. Dish has to enforce HDCP if requested by the content provider.


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## Stewart Vernon

sigma1914 said:


> It's not a poorer picture with component...1080i is 1080i. Your "FULL HD" comment doesn't apply, either. This isn't BluRays where you need HDMI for 1080p material. HBO (and all other channels) are sending 1080i max, which component can fully handle.


While what you say is mostly true for a channel like HBO... Dish does have some 1080p PPV content that he would no longer be able to view over component in the intended display method.

Also... the "other shoe" has yet to drop... remember that one of the things that also can be done via HDCP is prevent 1080i or even 720p content from being displayed over component. This is in the spec, the "downconvert flag"... and everyone agreed to push off enforcing this until, I think, 2013... but we could be inching closer to the day when you'll only be able to view HBOHD in HD over HDMI, and not component...

So this workaround has current and potential future ramifications if Dish isn't able to get a handle on it.



gtal98 said:


> Also, HDCP issues aren't necessarily Dish's problem - they could be real HDCP issues (old TV, incompatible cables, etc.). Now if everyone with a 922 suddenly has the problem then it's a Dish issue, otherwise I'm going to guess the occasional problem is specific to the users setup. Dish has to enforce HDCP if requested by the content provider.


True... the HDMI (and HDCP) specs have some holes in them, and there have been lots of device-to-device negotiation/handshake issues... so it could be his HDTV that isn't properly compatible rather than his Dish receiver or A/V receiver... but Dish kind of gets stuck having to issue firmware fixes sometimes for these incompatibilities too even if it is the HDTV at fault.


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## P Smith

> so it could be his HDTV that *isn't properly compatible* rather than his Dish receiver or A/V receiver


For HDTV what is start selling this [2011] year ? You stretched too far ...


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## JimD

Happens every night now. Power cycling the TV via the remote makes no difference. I don't yet know if removing AC power makes any difference.
I have to UNPLUG the HDMI cable and then plug it back in. That fixes the problem every time. So, the 922 figures out that the TV IS fully HDCP compliant when the connection is made. WHY DOES IT FORGET THIS?

For those suggesting that the TV is at fault - come on, folks. What's more likely: My Samsung HLT6189S is not really fully compliant with HDCP - or the VIP 922 has a firmware bug?

Sanyo must manufacture tens or hundreds of thousands of HDCP compliant devices. How many 922s are there?


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## P Smith

Big secret - dish will not reveal that, only in a court if TiVo will go after the model.


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## Stewart Vernon

P Smith said:


> For HDTV what is start selling this [2011] year ? You stretched too far ...


That's difficult to say. Since actual enforcement of HDCP is new, it can uncover new bugs in receivers, Blu-ray players, HDTVs, etc. that they might not have been able to test previously.

Think about it... a 2011 released HDTV was being designed/tested/manufactured a year or two ago... and this being a recent change at HBO/Cinemax means they couldn't have tested this last year.



JimD said:


> I have to UNPLUG the HDMI cable and then plug it back in. That fixes the problem every time. So, the 922 figures out that the TV IS fully HDCP compliant when the connection is made. WHY DOES IT FORGET THIS?


I would agree with you if we knew that was what is happening... but without knowing for sure what is happening, it is also possible that the HDTV is dropping something on the handshake too.

I honestly don't know how the average consumer would be able to reliably diagnose an HDCP failure as coming from the receiver vs the HDTV without some diagnostic equipment.



JimD said:


> For those suggesting that the TV is at fault - come on, folks. What's more likely: My Samsung HLT6189S is not really fully compliant with HDCP - or the VIP 922 has a firmware bug?


Honestly... given the weirdness of HDMI and HDCP... at this point I'd have to say it is about 50/50. Until HBO started using HDCP you probably didn't have anything else connected to your HDTV that was using it in this manner... so you might not have a way of knowing if your HDTV is the culprit.

I grant you, though, that it is equally likely that the 922 receiver is at fault, for exactly the same reason... Until HBO turned this on, Dish couldn't have tested their 922 with all possible HDTVs to see what happens.



JimD said:


> Sanyo must manufacture tens or hundreds of thousands of HDCP compliant devices. How many 922s are there?


Again, the problem is that I don't think Samsung (I assume you typoed "Sanyo" there) would have had a reliable way of testing with HBO's HDCP until HBO recently started using it... so neither Dish nor Samsung may have been able to 100% verify their implementation was compatible.

This is why Dish wants to know the make/model of HDTVs experiencing this problem so they can see if they can duplicate the problem and talk with HDTV manufacturers to see what to do IF Dish needs to fix this OR to help the HDTV manufacturers fix it if that is the need.


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## JimD

"Stewart Vernon" said:


> Again, the problem is that I don't think Samsung (I assume you typoed "Sanyo" there) would have had a reliable way of testing with HBO's HDCP until HBO recently started using it... so neither Dish nor Samsung may have been able to 100% verify their implementation was compatible.
> 
> This is why Dish wants to know the make/model of HDTVs experiencing this problem so they can see if they can duplicate the problem and talk with HDTV manufacturers to see what to do IF Dish needs to fix this OR to help the HDTV manufacturers fix it if that is the need.


DOH! Yes, I meant Samsung. What on earth made me type Sanyo? I blame iPad's auto-correct. . Still, I imagine that Samsung has more opportunity to test this functionality worldwide than DISH does.


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## P Smith

If you look to the issue from technical standpoint we will definitely blame the 922's FW:
- only model 922 behave like that
- after restart it's doing OK with the same TV

Also, there are more stat about HDCP attempts/failures, JimD if you could make snapshots of those HDMI stats before and after the message.


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## JimD

"P Smith" said:


> If you look to the issue from technical standpoint we will definitely blame the 922's FW:
> - only model 922 behave like that
> - after restart it's doing OK with the same TV
> 
> Also, there are more stat about HDCP attempts/failures, JimD if you could make snapshots of those HDMI stats before and after the message.


Funny you should say that. I thought about trying a diagnostic, and noticed under menu/settings/HDMI/HDCP there were a number of values displayed. Here is what they looked like before (failing case) and after (working case):

Before unplug/replug cable :

HDCP APP STATE
hdcp_state : AUTH PENDING
hdcp_enforce : 0
hdcp_enable : 1
hdmi_connected : 1
attempts/successes : 41/1
surprise successes : 1

After unplug/replug cable :

HDCP APP STATE
hdcp_state : ENCRYPTED
hdcp_enforce : 0
hdcp_enable : 1
hdmi_connected : 1
attempts/successes : 43/2
surprise successes : 1

Tomorrow I will check this in the morning. I suspect it is the nightly reset/reboot that makes the 922 "forget" the state of things.


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## Stewart Vernon

I forget... are you connecting the 922 directly to your HDTV or going through an A/V receiver?

I ask... because, I have a 922 of course... and I have a Samsung HDTV as well... older than yours though... and I connect through my Sony A/V receiver.

Every once in a while when I go to turn on my 922, I find it stuck on the screen saver but I will have audio. I used to think it was my 922 and reported it several times actually because a reset would fix it.

However... what I have since learned is that... it appears to be my a/v receiver... because I don't have the problem directly connected to the HDTV... and when I do have the problem, IF I choose another A/V input and then switch back to the 922 input... it works.

I haven't had any HDCP errors though... but this one glitch exposed my A/V receiver as sometimes interfering with the HDMI handshake.


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## umbertob

P Smith said:


> - only model 922 behave like that


There's a similar thread going on the 622/722/722k forum, so apparently we are not the only lucky ones.


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## JimD

"Stewart Vernon" said:


> I forget... are you connecting the 922 directly to your HDTV or going through an A/V receiver?


My TV is directly connected via a short (3 foot) HDMI cable.

This morning, first thing, I checked and HDMI status had gone back to "AUTH PENDING". I neglected to capture the attempts/successes field, but I assume it must have been 9/1 or 10/1.

Here is the data AFTER an unplug/replug of the cable:

After nightly restart and unplug/replug cable :

HDCP APP STATE
hdcp_state : ENCRYPTED
hdcp_enforce : 0
hdcp_enable : 1
hdmi_connected : 1
attempts/successes : 11/2
surprise successes : 1


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## JimD

I am going to be wearing out the HDMI connector if I have to implement a daily reconnect cycle.


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## P Smith

How long is the cable ? Is it good one ?


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## JimD

"P Smith" said:


> How long is the cable ? Is it good one ?


As stated in the previous post, it is 3 ft long. As stated several posts ago, this is not the original cable used for this interconnection. The first was a DVI-HDMI cable with an HDMI adapter on the DVI end (making it HDMI-HDMI). The current cable is HDMI-HDMI with no adapters. The 922 behavior is identical with both cables.

Define "good".


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## JimD

The issue is not triggered (only) by the nightly reboot, because I just had to recycle the connection again. That's twice in the same day.

This is incredibly annoying.


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## JimD

Last night I left the receiver tuned to HBO, but still turned it off via the remote as usual. This morning, the status was:

HDCP APP STATE
hdcp_state : ENCRYPTED
hdcp_enforce : 1
hdcp_enable : 1
hdmi_connected : 1
attempts/successes : 7/1
surprise successes : 1


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## olguy

For what it may be worth I am not having any problems. 922 via high speed HDMI to Onkyo TX-NR609 to Mitsubishi WD-82737 via high speed HDMI. It'll probably have a problem the next time :lol:


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## JimD

Tonight when the problem appeared again I tried a different remedy. This time I power cycled the 922. I turned it off via the remote and then unplugged it's power cord. When I plugged it in, it went through several iterations of the "Starting up..." page in two different resolutions (720x480 and 1920x1080). I thought it would never come up.

When it finally did, the problem was gone. So now I know of 2 ways to correct the problem when it occurs:

1) unplug either end of the HDMI cable and plug it back in
2) remove power from the 922 and restore it.

Next time I will try power cycling the TV. I already know that "turning off" the 922, the TV or both (via the remote) and turning back on again does not fix the problem. Probably an actual power cycle (via the power cord) at the TV will also eliminate the problem, but we'll see.

I wish there was a "reset HDMI" diagnostic in the 922.


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## umbertob

umbertob said:


> Thanks, makes sense. I tried looking for such a 1-input to 2+ outputs HDMI splitter before, couldn't find one. Any links?
> 
> PS: Never mind. I'll give this one a shot and see: http://www.amazon.com/HDMI-Splitter-Amplifier-Dual-Display/dp/B0015YRMXI


Quick update: The cheapo splitter above didn't work. Once I split the HDMI signal from the 922, I get no video (or sound) to my AVR from either HDMI outputs. Returning it. Undeterred :lol:, I am moving upmarket a bit and ordering this one from MonoPrice: http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10113&cs_id=1011301&p_id=7522&seq=1&format=2 - will let you know how it goes...

PS: HDMI sucks.


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## umbertob

Well, MonoPrice delivered the splitter in record time (ordered it online Saturday night and delivered today at my house, a Monday... How's that even possible?!?), and I am happy to report that their splitter works like a charm to split the HDMI signal from the 922 into two separate HDMI outputs. No dropouts, no handshaking issues, no audio issues or stuttering, no HDCP messages on HBO (not yet, anyway), no video quality degradation. Let's hope it lasts. HDMI still sucks, though.


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## coolman302003

umbertob said:


> Well, MonoPrice delivered the splitter in record time (ordered it online Saturday night and delivered today at my house, a Monday... How's that even possible?!?)


Maybe because Monoprice is in Rancho Cucamonga, CA which is only about 40 miles east of Pasadena, CA.

BTW congrats on the HDMI splitter hope it continues to work great for you!


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## JimD

After tonight's events, the following are the parameters of this issue as I understand them:

Once "the problem" is manifest, it is thereafter impossible to watch HBO or Cinemax programming unless you record it first and watch the recording later. If you attempt to tune to one of these HBO or Cinemax channels while "the problem" is manifest, you will see a pop-up alert that says the receiver has detected that the TV does not conform to HDCP, and that this channel's programming requires HDCP, so viewing it has been disallowed.

"The problem" occurs at random, can occur multiple times each day if you clear it.

Once it happens, the "hdcp_state" (in menu/settings/diagnostics/HDMI/HDCP) changes from "ENCRYPTED" to "AUTH PENDING".

Things I have tried which WILL clear "the problem":

1) while THE 922 and TV are running, unplug either end of the HDMI cable and plug it back in.
2) disconnect AC power from 922 and re-apply it.

The trouble with #1 (aside from annoyance) is that it will eventually wear out the HDMI connector contacts.
The trouble with #2 (aside from annoyance and potential damage to 922 disk structure) is that the 922 takes FOREVER to wake up.

Things I have tried which WILL NOT clear the problem:

A) power off/on (via remote) the 922.
B) power off/on(via remote) the TV.
C) disconnect AC power from TV and re-apply it.

I do not know anything about HDMI protocol, but I would think that "C" above should look the same to the 922 as #1 above. How does the 922 detect TV power cycling and HDMI cable unplug/replug differently? Does anyone know?

To DISH - if you can't be certain you've fixed this issue, please add a "retry" selection to the pop-up about the TV not conforming to HDCP, that when selected causes the 922 to reinitialize HDMI just as though the cable has been unplugged/replugged. This way your user (me) will not be cursing your name each time he has to get up, move the speaker, get behind the entertainment center and cycle the $&?!'k HDMI cable!!!!!!


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## JimD

Here is an update on this issue:

First, some further environmental detail. I have 3 devices feeding HDMI signals to different ports of my Samsung HLT6189S. Two of them (the 922 and my Home Theater PC) both provide signal at all times - they never get powered off. The 922 provides 1080i formatted video, and the PC provides 1080p. Both are HDCP compliant and establish encrypted links. The third is a game box that is powered off virtually all the time.

Only the 922 frequently "loses" the HDCP encryption lock to the TV. I have shuffled ports on the TV and this makes no difference.

I decided to try some OTHER HDCP device rather than my Samsung TV on the output of the 922. I bought a Monoprice HDX-401TA HDMI switch. My intention was to simplify things such that only 1 port of the TV was used by all devices. This worked beautifully at first. The first morning after adding this device to the mix, the 922 port stopped working. When selected, I get sound but no picture. The screen is either all snow or totally black. Interestingly enough - and just like with the TV - the PC input port never fails. It is always rock solid. Power cycling the switch restores the picture from the 922 input port.

So now I have 2 devices that cannot maintain HDMI connectivity with my 922. One only loses the HDCP encryption, the other seems to lose HDMI integrity altogether.

I think I am going to try 720p for a while and see if this rez behaves any differently with the switch.


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## JimD

Well that experiment didn't last long. I switched to port 3 (PC) for an hour, then switched back to port 2 (the 922 at 720p) and the screen is black.

So the 922 doesn't get along with my TV or the switch. The PC on the other hand works fine with both.


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## P Smith

Time to change the TV .


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## MCHuf

P Smith said:


> Time to change the TV .


If you're not under contract, it's cheaper to switch to another service.


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## JimD

UPDATE -

For the last week or so, we have been powering off the HDMI switch (via its remote) when we "turn off" the TV, Amp and 922. Since beginning this practice we have not encountered a situation where the screen goes black. We have also never encountered the situation where the HDCP has lost encryption lock and become "AUTH_PENDING".

Lest anyone jump to the conclusion that this proves the TV to be at fault, I hasten to add that if we could REALLY "turn off" the TV via the remote we might not see the issue there either. "Turning off" the TV leaves the HDMI port alive and communicating with the "powered off" 922. Turning off the switch does not. 

The fact that the switch HDMI ports go inactive when "turned off" via its remote is evidenced by the TV being unable to identify the timing signal anymore when this is done.

So in other words, the use of a remotely power-controlled HDMI switch seems like it may be a viable workaround until Dish fixes their HDCP problem.


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## ruzicka

I have the same problem with my ViP 722. According to a tech support person I spoke with at Dish, this is NOT a DVR or TV problem. It is a HBO/Cinemax problem, or rather, something that HBO and Cinemax are doing at their end, randomly and arbitrarily screwing things up with every distributor of their content. Dish is supposedly in "negotiations" with HBO/Cinemax to stop this. However, until such time as things are changed on the HBO/Cinemax side, the ONLY thing you can supposedly do to "fix" the problem and allow you to watch one of these HDCP-blocked movies/shows, is to switch to a component video cable. This is total crap to me. Dish says that they have no intention of reimbursing anyone for lost viewing time, as it is not their fault.


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## JimD

ruzicka said:


> I have the same problem with my ViP 722. According to a tech support person I spoke with at Dish, this is NOT a DVR or TV problem. It is a HBO/Cinemax problem, or rather, something that HBO and Cinemax are doing at their end, randomly and arbitrarily screwing things up with every distributor of their content.


Their position makes no sense to me. :nono2: I am no expert on HDCP, but I seriously doubt that the method used by the 922 (or 722) to establish and maintain an HDCP encrypted connection over the HDMI interface is in any way controlled by content providers.

I have no doubt that the content providers can require (or not) an HDCP connection, this is apparent given that only HBO/Cinemax has this issue - but if the receiver is intermittently and erroneously detecting that a fully compliant display device is NOT compliant, this is clearly Dish's fault.

The fact that it works initially (or after you unplug and replug the HDMI cable) shows that the receiver can reliably establish this encrypted link in the first place - but something is later causing it to lose the link, and it never succeeds at *re-establishing* it. It seems to me that this is where the Dish (Echostar?) engineers should be focusing their effort.


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