# After Tech Chat Thoughts



## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

So guys what did you think of the Tech Chat?

What a night for DBSTalk.COM!

Thanks everyone!

(Please keep all talk about the Tech Chat in this Thread... Thanks!)


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## music_beans (Mar 21, 2003)

At least server did not crash like it did last time. (The java chat is much more fun)


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## DmitriA (Aug 6, 2002)

Interesting, how the software guy dodged the question about OpenTV on the 721...


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2003)

Was the 811 ($299) price NOT including the Superdish while the 921 ($999) included the Superdish?


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## rowdymon (Oct 17, 2002)

I tried calling in as well, but the guy at the other end tried to answer the question himself instead of handing it over to Mark or the other guy. My question was, what happens to people like me who want HDTV and subscribe to international programming as well? Is there going to be a 3rd Super-duperDish for us to be able to receive all 4 birds (105, 110, 119 and 121)?


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## c_caz (Jul 15, 2003)

I wish someone would have asked a question around when any of this is available:
921, 811 availability?
Superdish?
Americas Everything HD?
Dates would be nice...


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2003)

rowdymon said:


> I tried calling in as well, but the guy at the other end tried to answer the question himself instead of handing it over to Mark or the other guy. My question was, what happens to people like me who want HDTV and subscribe to international programming as well? Is there going to be a 3rd Super-duperDish for us to be able to receive all 4 birds (105, 110, 119 and 121)?


So, what was his answer?


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## c_caz (Jul 15, 2003)

811 $299 and 921 $999 = No Dish


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

How many of you think there's some higher ups that are cringing now because 2 admins here took away the 508 receivers! 

Personally, I thought this was the best chat that they have done in years. I wasn't shocked by the $999 price for the 921 - I was very worried that it was going to be $1299. I was surprised that there won't be HD at 110, because we've been hearing that for months from people at Dish. 2 versions of the Superdish...ok...hopefully I won't need anything off of the 121 slot.

And way to go AngioDan for mentioning DBSTalk on the air! He gets a DVD of his choice! 

And BIG CONGRATULATIONS go to El Jefe, the winner of the live drawing for the 301 in this month's DBSTalk Monthly Contest!


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## Fred S (Jul 12, 2003)

I was ticked by the answer to the question: why can't I use my DISH receiver for OTA, when the weather blocks the satellite signal? The answer: because you may be a cheater who bought the (bargain priced?) DISH 6000 for the sole purpose of getting HD OTA.

OK, even at face value, my problem with it is that they could be a 24 hour limit on the availability of OTA when the sat signal is down.


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## Bichon (Jun 5, 2003)

Also, someone could put up a dish and not subscribe to programming to get around it. It only checks for satellite signal, not that you are a subscriber.


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## c_caz (Jul 15, 2003)

Excellent chat. They had more info on the receivers then I thought they would. The prices thrown out are great. Heck Zeniths 230 non satelitte, 80GB HD recorder is going to be $999 (at least that's the retail). $999 for 250GB is un-believable! They will sell a lot, as long as they are out soon...


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## DmitriA (Aug 6, 2002)

c_caz said:


> I wish someone would have asked a question around when any of this is available:
> 921, 811 availability?
> Superdish?
> Americas Everything HD?
> Dates would be nice...


What's the point of asking? You know that their timeframes don't usually mean much anyway


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Except for mentioning the pricing for the 921 and 811, and clearing up exactly what slots the SuperDish needs to point to for what programming I really wasn't impressed. 

When they got to the specs on the 921 and the price I was waiting to grab the phone to make my purchase but it's not available yet and no mention as to when it will be. 

Also, anyone that's purchased the 8PSK module should be given a SuperDish upgrade for FREE! I feel betrayed, spend the $'s and that's what you need to future HD programming. Now it's oh by the way if you want more programming spend some more $'s. Dish is acting like a drug dealer, here, we've given you a taste, if you want more you have to spend more $'s. Also not clear, is the current HD programming on 61.5/148 going to mirror on 105 at launch date so we can dump the 2nd dish or are we going to need to have the SuperDish+61.5/148 for some period of time, they weren't very clear on that subject (they did say they would mirror at some point in time but not if at launch). 

I think the call screeners were working extra hard tonight keeping the tough questions away from the boys.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

You can actually get the 6000 to go OTA only, but then you need to do a switch test to get back the satellite. It will not even try to go to the satellite. You have to clear NVRAM and such to get it to do it, but I have had mine do it when my switch went out.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

I wonder if Dave and Mark even listen to the answers they get from the "peanut gallery". The "non-answers" about the 721 were an insult to the owners of the box that have been waiting a very long time for the interactive features. I wish they would bring back Mike Dugan. If some of his people didn't answer a question he would ask them again until he got an answer.


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## Pegasus (Mar 11, 2003)

Any guesses on how much more the Superdish will cost us.


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## c_caz (Jul 15, 2003)

DmitriA said:


> What's the point of asking? You know that their timeframes don't usually mean much anyway


I guess the point would be if he said August or September, we'd have a close date that they are probably going to hit. The point is that nothing HD has any sort of delivery date. NOTHING. Summer for HDNET and HDNET movies is it. That ends Sept 21 or 22... A little more info would be nice.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Tonights chat showed just how much Dish Network pays attention to DBSTalk.COM.

I am proud of all the questions you guys asked!

Thanks to AngioDan for mentioning DBSTalk.COM on the air! I notice we have had 10 people register since the TV chat ended to those new folks welcome to DBSTalk.COM :welcome_s 

Thanks to DishDepot.COM which donated the 301 which we gave away to ElJefe! We could not do these giveaways without the kind equipment donations from DishDepot.COM!

And I am still in SHOCK that Chris Blount and Mark Lamutt were the winners of the 508 recievers tonight! Congrats guys!

Thank you to everyone who joined us in our chat, from what I can tell we had almost 100 people join us durring the chat (with 71 people in the chat when we were drawing the winner of the 301!)

Thanks also to everyone (especially our Gold Members) who make DBSTalk.COM the Internets Source for Satellite Information!


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## jm9 (Feb 10, 2003)

Fred S said:


> I was ticked by the answer to the question: why can't I use my DISH receiver for OTA, when the weather blocks the satellite signal? The answer: because you may be a cheater who bought the (bargain priced?) DISH 6000 for the sole purpose of getting HD OTA.
> 
> OK, even at face value, my problem with it is that they could be a 24 hour limit on the availability of OTA when the sat signal is down.


They need to rethink this. I can see 24 hours as too long, how about 30 minutes. WHen I loose signal it is because of a storm that I need to check the local channels for weather alerts. I actually agree with there thinking, but they need to understand that their customers have paid for this service and need some sort of work around.


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## n1wbd (Mar 24, 2002)

I know what you mean about the call screeners see my rant elsewhere  

They want you to call but won't put you on when you do call.

OH well such as life. 

Bob Hale
N1WBD

PS Anybody got a spare crying towel???  Used is ok. :lol:


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## Pocatello (May 2, 2003)

$299 for the 811 seems like a bargain.

That should get many new HD customers.


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## c_caz (Jul 15, 2003)

Pocatello said:


> $299 for the 811 seems like a bargain.
> 
> That should get many new HD customers.


It is. $550 for a 6000, heck that's almost half. $999 for 921 is a bargin as well.


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## Pocatello (May 2, 2003)

I just hope that our friends to the north

(BEV)

get their 811 and 921 very soon as well. I don't want them to be left out.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I figured they would not put HD on 110 but just wait to put it at 121. Also I also knew that they would say that those that have those expensive HD tv's and receivers will shell out the money for the SuperDish seeing that they have the money for that too. This is how they represented themselves in the past and nothing has changed.

Is there a tech chat recap? I missed the whole thing due to not being able to get back until late and the 721 not recording it for me as I told it to because of its malfunctions (getting replaced). Dish sent me a remanufactured 301 instead of the 721 after messing up on the address to send it to in which they would not own up to.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

I got a little steamed when Mark stated basically that we should be happy to purchase the Superdish since we already spent so much on our HDTVs. We've followed all of their hardware requirements to date, then they change their mind basically about how to offer HD, charge us for yet another piece of equipment, and we should bow and kiss their feet for doing this FOR US!

I sent a nice email to Charlie and Mr. Jackson telling them exactly how pleased I was that they were doing this all for us! I knew we'd have to purchase it, but Mark came off really bad by saying that we should be happy and just buy the darn thing already.

Looks like "Hello Directivo HD" for me, as soon as it is released.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I predicted that they would say something to that line before they said this on the Tech Chat, that you have the money for the Dish if you have the money for the tv. Early adopters do not get the deals that others that wait get later on. The price is going to be high at first.

Was anything mentioned about where which locals were going to be at?


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## rowdymon (Oct 17, 2002)

gpflepsen said:


> So, what was his answer?


He said that 'the discussions were tentative at present' and we probably would be able to get all international and all HD channels on one satellite. A flat out lie, if u ask me, but I was in no mood to argue after listening to the talk about having to spend more $$ for the superdish.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

I see the future and predict that the SuperDish and upgrade will be FREE if you agree to a year of AT 100 or better plus 1 year of the Dish Americas Top HD Package.


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## HTguy (May 7, 2002)

Congratulations to the dbs.talk winners & on-air questioners.

1st, I think I should warn everybody that Mark probably goofed on the $299 quote for the 811. That's the projected price for the non-8VSB, non-DVI basic HD IRD box they've had in development.

Don't be too shocked when the 811 comes out for $499.

But I _was_ shocked when Mark stated that the SuperDish would be necessary for the new HD channels from the get-go. It's hard for me to believe that they won't have them available for a while on the wing sats &/or 110 for existing subs until the AMC sat is ready & the SuperDish is available in quantity (especially now that they are saying more realistically sometime in the 4th quarter.)


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## HTguy (May 7, 2002)

rowdymon said:


> He said that 'the discussions were tentative at present' and we probably would be able to get all international and all HD channels on one satellite. A flat out lie, if u ask me, but I was in no mood to argue after listening to the talk about having to spend more $$ for the superdish.


I certainly didn't hear him state this. Quite the opposite, they explained that there would be 2 versions of the SD: 105 for HD & new locals and 121 for Intl's.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

What if you already got a promotion like getting a few 508's for $99-$149 each for a subscriber that purchases around $125 worth of programming per month a year in advance on checking account autopay?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

You would just extend the agreement, much like cell phone companys do when you buy a new cell phone when your in the middle of a contract.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

They gave me no contract or commitment to commit to. Never had one.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> I see the future and predict that the SuperDish and upgrade will be FREE if you agree to a year of AT 100 or better plus 1 year of the Dish Americas Top HD Package.


If this is true, Scott, they might just keep me as a sub for a while. I think I mostly was insulted by Mark and his attitude towards HDTV owners and us early adopters. His attitude completely ticked me off, and Charlie heard about it, not that he's going to either reply or do anything about it.

Jeff


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## Pegasus (Mar 11, 2003)

Scott, don't forget cc autopay


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## rowdymon (Oct 17, 2002)

HTguy said:


> I certainly didn't hear him state this. Quite the opposite, they explained that there would be 2 versions of the SD: 105 for HD & new locals and 121 for Intl's.


Exactly! So either way, all of us HD/International people will still need a two dish solution. I guess I'll have to repoint my 61.5 dish to 121 and get the 105 superdish or something like that.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

They are more likely to give deals to those subscribers with lower budgets instead of those that have expensive HD tv's and receivers and a hight amount of programming, although they should do something for those customers and get them something to hook them in to make more money. I think there will be better deals later on, that in the beginning it will be pretty well anyone that wants it will pay for it expect with the locals situation in which they will HAVE to give those customers a deal or not get the customer gains to get them off of cable and not lose them to DirecTv and their cheap ParaTodos oval dish solution that is $100 or less. Dish had better be very VERY careful with this or they will lose a lot of potential customers when it comes to this dish requirement on locals. This could benefit those that want to get this dish for HD.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

You will not be able to pick up 105 with your dish at 61.5 unless you have a bigger dish and a different lnbf.


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## HTguy (May 7, 2002)

BTW I was amazed as anyone that Dave admited that the HD IRDs could be "opened" for OTA only w/o a sat feed.

It doesn't make much sense when you figure that OTA DigitalTV (only) receivers can be purchased for the same price. Moreover, most DISH HD subs have obtained the 6000 with a 12mo commitment promo & even if they DC the sat programming they still have a dish. 

And like someone said, who's going to buy a 2-tuner DBS PVR for $999 just to watch OTAs?

:eek2: :nono:


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## HTguy (May 7, 2002)

rowdymon said:


> Exactly! So either way, all of us HD/International people will still need a two dish solution. I guess I'll have to repoint my 61.5 dish to 121 and get the 105 superdish or something like that.


Unfortuneatly, your 'lil 18" dish with the dbs LNB ain't gonna work for the FSS Ku band 121 sat.


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## AndyMon (Jun 12, 2003)

Jeff_R said:


> If this is true, Scott, they might just keep me as a sub for a while. I think I mostly was insulted by Mark and his attitude towards HDTV owners and us early adopters. His attitude completely ticked me off, and Charlie heard about it, not that he's going to either reply or do anything about it.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff, I had the same reaction as you did. Pretty nervy of them, I think. 
I sent an email to Charlie a few weeks ago bemoaning their indifference to keeping a long time subscriber (me) appeased when I mentioned a desire to go HD and tried to find out when the new receivers would be available, as well seeing if they would offer any programming discounts, etc. I got a call back that same day from Mike Nesselt (?) in programming, I believe. The only info I could glean from him was that Christmas time would be the time for things to start happening. Otherwise, they offered me a 6000 for $400 w/o OTA module and a few PPV coupons. I politely declined his offer but at least they contacted me.
D* seems to be much more generous when trying to keep their subscribers or get new ones.


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## STXJim (Apr 22, 2002)

I can't believe we NOW have to wait until the "end of Aug." for the software release for the 721 that was due two months ago! What will it be called when it is finally released?
L1.69..........For EAT ME you EchoStar customers! :new_puppy
Why not release what they have NOW and the rest when it's finished.
With this mentality we may never get the new software release.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

AndyMon said:


> Jeff, I had the same reaction as you did. Pretty nervy of them, I think.
> I sent an email to Charlie a few weeks ago bemoaning their indifference to keeping a long time subscriber (me) appeased when I mentioned a desire to go HD and tried to find out when the new receivers would be available, as well seeing if they would offer any programming discounts, etc. I got a call back that same day from Mike Nesselt (?) in programming, I believe. The only info I could glean from him was that Christmas time would be the time for things to start happening. Otherwise, they offered me a 6000 for $400 w/o OTA module and a few PPV coupons. I politely declined his offer but at least they contacted me.
> D* seems to be much more generous when trying to keep their subscribers or get new ones.


Unfortunately, we are at a time with HD that you either spend money and jump ship, or just wait a bit. We finally have the programming available, but Dish isn't offering it because they STILL can't get their hardware issues worked out, then changed their HD strategy at some point to begin using FSS sats in addition to the DBS sats.

I already have the 6000, 8PSK, 8VSB, and they now want me to buy (here's hoping Scott is correct) a new dish? All because they can't make up their mind? Unless they want to give me some substantial programming credits (not likely from Charlie), they really can't appease me at this time.

I don't want to buy a current Directv HD receiver since it won't give me PVR features that I know are right around the corner. So, basically, I'm stuck with Dish for HD at the moment. It's so frustrating to know that there are channels out there to get, but either waste 500 dollars for a Directv receiver, or wait for Dish to play catchup "by Christmas"?


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## c_caz (Jul 15, 2003)

The fight a 721 owners have had make me worried for the 921. Uses the same parts is what was said tonight.

I want a 921, but I'm not looking for a headache of a system. My 501 is nearly rock solid, but fpr $1000 I better get something that is updated as needed and is very stable. I guess most will say to wait 6 months then (or a year ...)


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## Marcus S (Apr 23, 2002)

As usual tech chat did not really say anything and everything coming soon.. 2004. As predicted this hot summer has produced no new HD product and no significant feature upgrades on the 6000 to entice people to stay with an obsolete EPG and no OpenTV, especially since *D's Toshiba DST-3100 has shipped w/Wink. I also don't see people willing to run to the door to get the Super Dish when many in the last few years just installed a Dish 500 for the 1st time, while *D is offering the same for $50 w/installation and you can have your gratification tomorrow, not a handfull of yet more coming soon fluff. If you have been an E* subscriber since 97, this has gotten very old, and E* stands to loose their founder class subscribers unless they do something about it. With fall the time that subs spend money on upgraded equipment and programming, where is E*, focusing on Spring delivery when charge cards are maxed from Xmas.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Well my 61.5 dish is a 35 inch dish. It should work at 105, but they did not give a clear indication that you might still need 61.5 and 105 for a while or if they were immediately going to mirror 61.5 on 105.


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## rowdymon (Oct 17, 2002)

HTguy said:


> Unfortuneatly, your 'lil 18" dish with the dbs LNB ain't gonna work for the FSS Ku band 121 sat.


So I'll have to have TWO superdishes installed? .


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2003)

Mike123abc said:


> Well my 61.5 dish is a 35 inch dish. It should work at 105, but they did not give a clear indication that you might still need 61.5 and 105 for a while or if they were immediately going to mirror 61.5 on 105.


No it won't. The LNB is not compatible.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Thats what I said, that you will have to swap out your lnbf because the one at 61.5 will not work. Also I knew they would say that the 921 would be like the 721 hardware and software wise. The difference is that it has a larger hard drive and a HD tuner.


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## rowdymon (Oct 17, 2002)

OK, if I swap the lnbf, then will i be able to use the 18" dish to get 121?


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

No because the larger dish is needed to focus more on that satellite due to the interference you would see off of the neighboring satellites with the smaller dish in which are so close to 121 (such as 119 to 121, 101 & 110 to 105) just to mention the dbs slots and not the others. Not only that but they are lower power satellites that are going to be at 105 and 121 in which is the way it has to be done to get all of this satellite space with orbital slots so close together, by using different powered satellites that would interfere less with each other.


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## rowdymon (Oct 17, 2002)

Jacob S said:


> No because the larger dish is needed to focus more on that satellite due to the interference you would see off of the neighboring satellites with the smaller dish in which are so close to 121 (such as 119 to 121, 101 & 110 to 105) just to mention the dbs slots and not the others. Not only that but they are lower power satellites that are going to be at 105 and 121 in which is the way it has to be done to get all of this satellite space with orbital slots so close together, by using different powered satellites that would interfere less with each other.


So how big of a dish are we talking about? 20"? 24"? Or larger?


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

They have been calling for a 26 inch dish but a smaller one such as a 24 inch MAY work, the smaller the dish the less your signal strength is going to be in which will cause more rainfade. Also it will become more difficult to find the signal the smaller the dish is. I have not tried using smaller dishes yet in which I may experiment with because they have not launched or moved the satellites to the appropriate orbital locations yet and have not released the SuperDish yet either. A Primestar Dish would work, maybe even the lnbf on it but since it has H & V it may cause an issue when it comes to switching and you may have to buy a type of switch that combines the H & V to work with the receiver anyways. If I am incorrect on any of this someone else correct me on this.


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## HTguy (May 7, 2002)

rowdymon said:


> So how big of a dish are we talking about? 20"? 24"? Or larger?


Probably at least 28" eliptical.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2003)

Marcus S said:


> As usual tech chat did not really say anything and everything coming soon.. 2004. As predicted this hot summer has produced no new HD product and no significant feature upgrades on the 6000 to entice people to stay with an obsolete EPG and no OpenTV, especially since *D's Toshiba DST-3100 has shipped w/Wink. I also don't see people willing to run to the door to get the Super Dish when many in the last few years just installed a Dish 500 for the 1st time, while *D is offering the same for $50 w/installation and you can have your gratification tomorrow, not a handfull of yet more coming soon fluff. If you have been an E* subscriber since 97, this has gotten very old, and E* stands to loose their founder class subscribers unless they do something about it. With fall the time that subs spend money on upgraded equipment and programming, where is E*, focusing on Spring delivery when charge cards are maxed from Xmas.


Exactly, and why I am tired of Dish's Tom Foolery. I have been waiting over 3 years to get HD on 110/119. Now we hear Dish is at least 2 years away from providing all HD channels on the Super Dish. Bye bye Dish Network, hello Direct HD pak.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

We are probably 2 years away from getting all of those HD channels because the HD channels are not out yet for the most part and also those that come on here tend to hear about things first therefore when they see the Tech or Charlie Chat they do not see much new information because we get a heads up in which makes the chats disapointing to some where if you did not come on here first you would be delighted with what you hear. What we hear on there is old news to a lot of us. We do get some new info from their chats though and it reinforces what we have heard on here and clears some things up.


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## music_beans (Mar 21, 2003)

Sorry, Andy. You are right. I need to toughen a bit. (Emotionally and Physically) Really, I can't cool it because the forecast has 90s for temps tomorrow!


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## Marcus S (Apr 23, 2002)

Jacob, I hope your are kidding. The facts are what they are, no new HD equip until 2004. A weak upgrade to the 721, 6000 upgrade that did not deliver as expected. What decade of subscriber is going to wait on E*'s failure to ever deliver new equipment on time or upgrade existing features on existing equipment?

Never delivered all sub to the 5000, HD mod obsolete, expensive upgrade to the 6000, a 6000 that an EPG from the 80's, and future equipment offerings not until next year. I get more HD channels than either DBS provider. E* pulled their 221 from CES, while Toshiba announces their DST 3100 w/Wink?? If you where in the market today with HD pak and all A/V composite, component, DVI, and RF w/Wink and simultaneous all outputs, you would buy a E* 6000??? Pupils dilated.... E* is going to hurt over there "plan" to be HD domintarix. No one is willing to wait. Why is is that *D can deliver 7 day EPG's in their recevers while E* non DVR's are now only capable of 3???


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2003)

How many of you would buy a new piece of electronic equipment based on an old design? In the tech chat tonight Dave said that the chipset for the 921 was the same as the 721. I am not quite sure when the 721 was on the drawing board but a reasonable guess would be about 4 years ago. So this means that the 921 has the same technology available 4 years ago but is trying to do more. No wonder they are struggling with this product.

I just don’t see the point of spending $1000 for new equipment that will be crippled out of the block. The Directv HD Tivo may more sense to me especially if Directv has the HD programming I want at Christmas.


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## nostar (Jun 22, 2003)

RAD said:


> I think the call screeners were working extra hard tonight keeping the tough questions away from the boys.


My thoughts exactly! Is it my imagination or did these guy look really nervous during the whole chat? I thought that HDnet was going to be added this summer, and now it's in the fall. I've heard this "we are in negotiations with ESPN" before. It was pretty obvious that these guys were pretty well couched in what to say a what not to say.


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> I see the future and predict that the SuperDish and upgrade will be FREE if you agree to a year of AT 100 or better plus 1 year of the Dish Americas Top HD Package.


Maybe, but I doubt right away. Just like the 8PSK module which at first they got people to buy outright, and only after they realized they had milked all of the money they would get out of it did they then offer the free 8PSK with the 1 year committment to DiscHD. I'm guessing they will do the same here to, so I would advise people to hold out if they don't offer a free upgrade with a committment deal at first, but you surely no more than I do.


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

gpflepsen said:


> Was the 811 ($299) price NOT including the Superdish while the 921 ($999) included the Superdish?


Those were both stand-a-lone system prices.

Ken


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

jeffwtux said:


> Maybe, but I doubt right away. Just like the 8PSK module which at first they got people to buy outright, and only after they realized they had milked all of the money they would get out of it did they then offer the free 8PSK with the 1 year committment to DiscHD. I'm guessing they will do the same here to, so I would advise people to hold out if they don't offer a free upgrade with a committment deal at first, but you surely no more than I do.


When DiscHD was first released they had the same offer on the 8PSK for the first month or so, then they started charging for the module separately.

Ken


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Well, their attitude about the HD programming and the superdish sucks IMO. My wife was really pissed when she heard the comments about having to buy the superdish and of course she remembers Charlie, Laurie and the HDTV Info channel saying that the 8PSK module was all that was needed to pick up HDTV in the future. 

No mention of Bravo HD that is supposed to launch 7-31-03 and a bunch of "were in negotiations" for every other channel out there "when they become available". More info on programming that I expected but darn guys, there are several channels available right this second, why do we have to wait until who knows when on the "HD leader."

I will say that I am OK with the $999 price for the 921 but right now I am in a very vulnerable place, suceptible to the siren song of an HD DirecTivo if one is to be found soon.

Also, anyone lese get the feeling that only a few AV geeks were watching last night. I was pretty psyched that I recognized some names last night but I wonder if that is because only 500 people watched the thing.

Anyone want to take a bet that the DishPlayer, while being far from ancient, will not be compatible with the superdish?


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## angiodan (Sep 2, 2002)

I hope with the influx of emails to Charlie about having to pay for Superdish will be heard. Scott, I hope your prediction of a free upgrade with a programming commitment will be the path Dish chooses for those of us "who have spent money on an HDTV, so we've got fat wallets to keep dishing out dollars for HD".


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

Please don't take this wrong, but I was a little disappointed in last nights chat. I'm pleased that Dish finally gave some answers, but I'm not sure if I liked all of them.

I took a big jump getting the HDTV, then upgraded to the 6000. Then you add 8vsb, 8psk and a quad to be ready for the 921.

Now Dish says you will need to buy something else, and to add insult to injury, we should be happy about it because we already have a huge investment. 

I didn't like the idea that because we already have made a large investment, we should be glad to shell out some more to make that investment worth something.

Dish should be giving the Super dish with the 921 & 811 purchase, because we are the ones making their investment get some return.

The idea that Dish has made a large investment for such a small audience is ridiculous. They are making the investment because, as someone on the show said, the Digital sales will reach into the billions. They are in the digital business and they need to invest to keep that business competitive. It sounded like they want us to reimburse them to so they can make the profit.

I feel like I have one of those cars that has reached the point to whether it is feasible to throw some more good money after bad or just move on to another brand.

I will probably get the superdish and 921, but I kind of feel like the guy who bought the new car, only to find he will have to pay more money to get the engine to make it go.

I am glad that we appear to be moving forward, I am just concerned that after we buy the Superdish, they will come out with the engine we now need to make it go.

Larry


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## faiello (Mar 17, 2003)

c_caz said:


> I guess the point would be if he said August or September, we'd have a close date that they are probably going to hit. The point is that nothing HD has any sort of delivery date. NOTHING. Summer for HDNET and HDNET movies is it. That ends Sept 21 or 22... A little more info would be nice.


If you listened closely they said we will have the new Super Dish and the new HD channels this fall, not the summer as they originally promised. The fall ends December 21st.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

faiello said:


> If you listened closely they said we will have the new Super Dish and the new HD channels this fall, not the summer as they originally promised. The fall ends December 21st.


I thought he said 4th quarter availability which is anywhere between 10/1 and 12/31.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Also, to use their own logic, if they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on HD, why not spend a few hundred thousand more to help all the people that have invested in equipment upgrades in good faith so we don;t all go to D* or Cable and tell all our freinds to do the same. Surely E*'s profitability does not hing on such a paltry sum?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

I do encourage everyone who has concerns to email in to Dish Network and let them know your issues.

The address I suggest is [email protected]

You all have valid points and there are still many questions that need answering, hopefully last night we showed Dish Network that we here at DBSTalk are really the voice of what their customers want.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> I do encourage everyone who has concerns to email in to Dish Network and let them know your issues.
> 
> The address I suggest is [email protected]
> 
> You all have valid points and there are still many questions that need answering, hopefully last night we showed Dish Network that we here at DBSTalk are really the voice of what their customers want.


Frankly I think writing will be a waste of time. I've written to the CEO address in the past on HD issues and basically have gotten back just very vague answers and thanks for being a Dish customer.


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

RAD said:


> Also, anyone that's purchased the 8PSK module should be given a SuperDish upgrade for FREE! I feel betrayed, spend the $'s and that's what you need to future HD programming. Now it's oh by the way if you want more programming spend some more $'s. Dish is acting like a drug dealer, here, we've given you a taste, if you want more you have to spend more $'s.


I wouldnt get too worried yet. I think they will make a pretty reasonable upgrade offer involving further commitment to Dish. The threat people can make is that "I am sure DirecTV will give some kind of decent conversion offer to Dish customers"! If I have to change out a bunch of hardware then might as well get DirecTV to pay for it!


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

c_caz said:


> It is. $550 for a 6000, heck that's almost half. $999 for 921 is a bargin as well.


eBay resale market on the 6000 just crashed Im sure


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

RAD said:


> Frankly I think writing will be a waste of time. I've written to the CEO address in the past on HD issues and basically have gotten back just very vague answers and thanks for being a Dish customer.


Believe it or not while you may get a stock answer they do take all comments sent to that address and read them to the respective department heads. If enough people write about the same subject it is going to get attention behind the scenes.

Remember the squeeky wheels always gets the grease. :righton:


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

rowdymon said:


> He said that 'the discussions were tentative at present' and we probably would be able to get all international and all HD channels on one satellite. A flat out lie, if u ask me, but I was in no mood to argue after listening to the talk about having to spend more $$ for the superdish.


What he said was that you could get the HD and International on one satellite dish. Later, they had a graphic that showed the HD on 105 and International on 121. I agree about the $ for SuperDish.........


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## Allen Noland (Apr 23, 2002)

I know it is looking like a bait and switch on the 8PSK/Superdish requirements, but wasn't the 8PSK requirement being sold when they were trying to merge with D*. My mind is kind of fuzzy on the dates, but I don't think the superdish idea even came up until after the merge was dead. Before, it was "We have to have the merger for more HD". Now we're on plan B with new requirements.

Just my thoughts.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2003)

I remember seeing a pic of a four LNB Superdish. That would address the 105,110,119 and 121 combination.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

gpflepsen said:


> I remember seeing a pic of a four LNB Superdish. That would address the 105,110,119 and 121 combination.


I have never seen one of these.

I was interesting to note that the SuperDish they had in the Studio looked like another mockup, while the other one they showed looked like an actually production unit.

Next step is to get dealers trained in how to install the SuperDish, I don't believe its as easy as just installing a Dish, I believe users will need a new switch and possibly adapters for older legacy equipment that do not support DishPro technology. (This is something I wish they covered more last night)


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Thinking seriously about jumping ship because of delays, unceretainties and gross ambiguities revolving around E*'s HD announcements.

I just checked the DirecTV site for HD programming. They don't have a big front-page HD splash as I thought they would. I had to do a search on "HDTV". They list only four HD channels:

ESPN-HD 
Discovery HD Theater 
HDNet 
HDNet Movies

Not much of an HD "package". Am I missing something? I thought they rolled out their "new" HD package on July 1. Looks like there is nowhere to go at present. Is this why E* seems to be in no rush to get their HD sh*t together?

====================

This blurb from the DirecTV HD FAQ:

_"What high-definition programming does DIRECTV offer?

There are four channels of HDTV programming: High-Definition PPV on channel 198 offers pay per view movies and events - 24 hours a day. HDNet on channel 199, a DIRECTV programming exclusive, features live sports like NHL® and MLB® games, movies, concerts and more from 10 a.m. - 2 a.m. (ET), plus pay per view programming from 2 a.m. - 10 a.m. (ET). HBO® HDTV on channel 509 airs continuously and presents first-run, award-winning original series and big hit movies. SHOWTIME HDTV® on channel 543 delivers Championship Boxing, bold SHOWTIME® Originals and Hollywood favorites around the clock."_


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## faiello (Mar 17, 2003)

They said that the model 6000u will be compatible with the Super Dish, and any receiver that is less than 5 years old. Does this include the model 4900 which I bought just 2 years ago, new? Also do we need to add an adapter for the Dish Pro technology or is Super Dish totally different than Dish Pro?


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## dinkster (May 14, 2002)

My message to Charlie ([email protected]) sent this morning.

Charlie,

This is my first correspondence with Dish Network after being a very loyal customer for over 5 years with America's Everything Pack and Credit Card AutoPay.

I was impressed by the information regarding the new HDTV offerings by Dish Network conveyed on last night's Tech Chat, as I have been waiting for this information on the 921 for quite a while. I am impressed with the specifications and stated price of this unit, and I have planned on purchasing a 921 for a number of months.

Regrettably, I was very disappointed with the news that I will now need to purchase a new SuperDish to receive new HD programming from Dish Network, after having purchased the 8PSK module for my 6000. I do not subscribe to Discovery HD as I am not interested in the programming, but purchased the 8PSK after learning that this would be what was required to receive future HD content from Dish Network. To be fair, I did watch a few NBA games on 9425 using the 8PSK.

Continuing delays in releasing the 921, combined with uncertain availability and need for a new dish system to replace my 5 month old 2 dish setup, and no solid information on availability of new HD programming have now combined to make this loyal Dish customer begin to seriously consider a Direct TV/HDTivo solution.

As it now appears that I will be required to replace my entire satellite system in order to upgrade my home theater system to a HD-PVR solution, I may as well consider a complete replacement from the competition.

My best wishes for continued success of Dish Network, and my sincere regrets for having Dish Network exceed the limits of my patience with your HD technologies and programming.

Regards,


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## HTguy (May 7, 2002)

A_Noland said:


> I know it is looking like a bait and switch on the 8PSK/Superdish requirements, but wasn't the 8PSK requirement being sold when they were trying to merge with D*. My mind is kind of fuzzy on the dates, but I don't think the superdish idea even came up until after the merge was dead. Before, it was "We have to have the merger for more HD". Now we're on plan B with new requirements.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


I agree. They were counting on the merger for providing HD. When that went south they had to scramble for a way to do it in a reasonable time frame. So they came up with the SuperDish concept using the AMC FSS Ku bird at 105. It would have taken a lot longer to build & launch another high-power dbs sat to 119/110 assuming they even have they rights for more transponders there.

SuperdDish is a little kludgey and it's more expensive & harder to install than Dish500. But if we want more HD sooner than later it's the only option. And, ultimately, E* will have more HD than DirecTV because of it.

BTW, when 8PSK came out they said it would be necessary for future HD channels. But they never said that it would be _all_ that was necessary.

Having said that I admit to being surprised & disappointed that they may not be launching the HD Pak until SuperDish ships. The way things are going the 105 sat may not be ready for some time (if it works at all). As you know they are moving an old spacecraft there temporarily to get started while waiting for a new one planned for next year.

IMHO the smart thing to do would be to launch the new channels now using the current 2-dish set up while getting the word out that SuperDish will be necessary in the future when they move the channels. That would allow us to get the programming now and make it a little less painless for those planning to get the new equipment. 921 & 811 buyers will just buy systems packed out with SuperDish. 6000 owners who don't plan to upgrade can go for the SD upgrade promo when they choose to with the understanding that they will need it at some point for new channels.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Lee L said:


> Anyone want to take a bet that the DishPlayer, while being far from ancient, will not be compatible with the superdish?


I am already hearing that (NOT officially though).

Echostar will be providing service from SIX slots (121, 119, 110, 105, 61.5 and 148) soon and I'll bet that MANY of the older receivers won't be able to handle that sort of setup (MOST customers won't need more than three slots, but there will be exceptions).


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## jm9 (Feb 10, 2003)

Am I missing something? I thought they rolled out their "new" HD package on July 1. Looks like there is nowhere to go at present. Is this why E* seems to be in no rush to get their HD sh*t together?

====================

Exactly, until the programming is available it does not make any sense to switch. D* has ESPN-HD, so that is 5 baseball games broadcasted this month. We really are not missing much yet. They do need to address timing though, If they want to be the Leader in HD, Then lead with products and programming. Future products and Future HD capacity will not cut it much longer. I can't make large $ investment in a company that promisses the world and delivers only half of the time.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

c_caz said:


> It is. $550 for a 6000, heck that's almost half. $999 for 921 is a bargin as well.


All of you 6000 owners should think about dumping your receivers now if you want any kind of trade in value before word gets out (it's probably too late already, but there may be a few people who didn't watch the chat and haven't gotten the word yet.) With the new technology only costing $299, the old ones will only fetch about half of that I'm guessing.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> I see the future and predict that the SuperDish and upgrade will be FREE if you agree to a year of AT 100 or better plus 1 year of the Dish Americas Top HD Package.


If that's the case they need to get the word out NOW as the $$$ line they through out last night miffed a lot of people.

I heard that Charlie told the retailers that they would be offering better incentives to their better customers (ie. Everything Pak) to keep the quality customers on board. So far this statement hasn't happened except for the 501/508 upgrade offer.


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## rowdymon (Oct 17, 2002)

BobMurdoch said:


> All of you 6000 owners should think about dumping your receivers now if you want any kind of trade in value before word gets out (it's probably too late already, but there may be a few people who didn't watch the chat and haven't gotten the word yet.) With the new technology only costing $299, the old ones will only fetch about half of that I'm guessing.


If anyone actually believes the 811 will cost $299, then I got a bridge to sell you. $299 is more likely the cost of the 211, not the 811. As HTGodfather noted, the price of the 811 will be closer to $499.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

rowdymon said:


> If anyone actually believes the 811 will cost $299, then I got a bridge to sell you. $299 is more likely the cost of the 211, not the 811. As HTGodfather noted, the price of the 811 will be closer to $499.


Has anyone gotten any real info on this other than speculation that they boys goofed last night? Was it on a powerpoint slide on the screen or was it just a throwaway verbal statement which would mean that a gaffe was more likely.

Plus, for all you techies out there... Can anyone give us a rundown of what will be required in a new setup. For example, I've got a 721 and two Dishplayers running off an SW64 switch. I plan on selling the 721 and getting a 921 to replace it. The Dishplayers are light duty use only, but if I had to I would upgrade them to 50x's and sell the Dishplayers (which must still be popular with a lot of people as their resale price stays surprisingly high). To add further confusion to the mix, my daughter turns four on 10/23 and I was planning on getting her a TV and DVD in her bedroom. I'd like to add another receiver, but my switch is maxed with the 721 and DPs being fed by three satellites (110, 119, & 61.5). If anyone has a link to a graph with the required setup i'd be appreciative......


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2003)

My problems listed below.

1) When you mention on your Charlie chat and announce through a press release that you will have HD in the Summer, you should deliver on that promise or give a valid reason to your customers why you can’t technically deliver on that promise. You shouldn't change that to Fall without letting your customers know why.

2) When one of your Senior VP’s announces that the customer will have to pay for the Superdish because we need to share in the cost to bring HD into our homes I want to know how I will share in the profits of your company? I don’t see significantly lower prices for any of the channels but I would assume that the price of the HD package will be significantly lower. 

3) The guys on the Tech chat had prices for the 921 and the 811. But, when asked what the price of ugrading to the Superdish would be for existing customers, suddenly they were only the Tech guys.

I have had an HD TV set for a year waiting on plans and definite start dates from Dish. Long term fantasy delivery dates don’t matter to me because Cable does not make me buy a superdish and buy a receiver they allow me to lease a cable box to bring HD to me. Poor decisions in my opinion to have everyone pay for your delivery system when a cheaper and equal PQ choice is on the market in some but not all areas yet. But, I can only assume that Cable will be in all markets eventually.

I know, I mentioned the dreaded Cable word but it's an alternative I have to look at if it makes sense for me.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

_"my daughter turns four on 10/23 and I was planning on getting her a TV and DVD in her bedroom"_

At FOUR years old? 

Good, plan, Bob. (NOT!) Just when the little tyke needs to be learning hour-by-hour and minute-by-minute at Mom and Dad's side, stick her off in her room alone to be terminally hypnotized by the electronic babysitter for hours on end. What's next, put a pc in her bedroom at five and turn her loose (not lose) on the internet?

IMO, With that kind of thinking going on, you may want to rethink your lifestyle and re-examine your family's priorities.

:backtotop


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

Something to think about.

Their entire HD customer base is running 6000s/5000s with Dish 500 + 61.5. If they want to sell an HD pack and make money on it, they are going to have to offer it to this existing configuration in its entirety. Like the "Enhanced" module, they may be able to phase in the SuperDish but they cant just cut over on day one. They are going to have to offer the HD pak on the existing sats for now. They may add new channels later on to the pak for SuperDish people only but they have to stay aware of what $10 is worth to people.

They also need to consider HBO-HD and Sho-HD (as well as Starz and other premium movie channels). Those carriers wont be happy if their current HD customers are being cut out of the ability to receive those channels due to required additional equipment costs. Those HD channels may stay in the 100/61.5 zone.

Dish needs to be able to brag , we have X existing HD customers ready to see your channels in order to negotiate.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Nick said:
 

> _"my daughter turns four on 10/23 and I was planning on getting her a TV and DVD in her bedroom"_
> 
> At FOUR years old?
> 
> ...


We have LOTS of one on one time. Occasionally, (early morning comes to mind) she wants to go to her room and play with her toys. I don't see anything wrong with turning her room into her own little corner of the world where she can enjoy herself. And if watching Stanley on Disney while playing with her dolls gives her a littel slice of joy then I don't have a problem with it. Also, I feel that most of the TV programs for the under 8 set is highly educational. I grant you that the dreck that my 9 year old chooses to watch is not as helpful (FoxKids Sat. mornings comes to mind).

Actually, my nine year old gets our old PCs when we upgrade. He has an AOL Kids account which shields him (and my daughter who plays alongside him as well) from harmful sites.

There is a time for family time and a time for alone time. Having too much of one OR the other can be a problem. I don't think that that is the case here.


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## DmitriA (Aug 6, 2002)

jzoomer said:


> I am not quite sure when the 721 was on the drawing board but a reasonable guess would be about 4 years ago. So this means that the 921 has the same technology available 4 years ago but is trying to do more.


I am pretty sure he wasn't talking about the MPEG decoder chip (and that's the one you would really care about) since it would have to be able to decode the HD content and they woudn't use it in the 721 non-HD receiver. The HD is new (250 MB). What else do you care about that has changed significantly in the past 4 (probably more like 3) years?


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## razorbackfan (Aug 18, 2002)

I dunno...it seemed like there was an inside joke going on with the blank stares, snickers, and the "you answer it", "no you answer it". And the guy saying that since people with HDTV spent a lot of money on their stuff, they need to spend even more for Dish stuff. Arrogant. I was going to take the HDTV plunge, but after last night, I think I'll wait another year.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2003)

Can someone please verify or maybe a different take if they recorded the Tech Talk on Dan Minnick's reply regarding software for the 721. I thought he mentioned HD along with Superdish when he mentioned the end of August date. I thought it might have been a slipup with regards to maybe a rollout at the end of August like Scott talked about earlier. Why would he need to finish upgrades for Superdish by the end of August if it wasn't ready for rollout at that time? 

Anybody with a better clarification on that response from Dan?


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

I think that the next software update will update the 721 software to be compatible with the Superdish. That was my take on the statement.......


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

That is what I understood too. Remember that the 105 and 121 locations will have much more than just HDTV

See ya
Tony


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## cicijay (Jan 6, 2003)

Lets face it. Those guys :kickbutt: on the Tech Forum only show up once every 3 times a year for a reason.

They certainly don't understand customer service/satisfaction. I'm sure that comment about HDTV users being rich enough to pay for anything didn't go over well with the Marketing people. 

Lets wait until the marketing people get involved. Dish made a promise that purchasers of the Dish 6000 would not need anything else to enjoy the future of HDTV. Do you really think Dish will make those people buy a SuperDish to continue getting HDTV after making those statements? They will at the very least give one to every person that has activated a 6000 since they made those comments, of course with some sort of commitment and CC Autopay. 

Personally I expect the SuperDish to follow a similar path as the Dish 500 did. Initially you had to pay for it then with a commitment to the top 150 I think you got it for a discount then eventually the price of S&H


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## SD493 (Mar 10, 2003)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> I do encourage everyone who has concerns to email in to Dish Network and let them know your issues.
> 
> The address I suggest is [email protected]
> 
> You all have valid points and there are still many questions that need answering, hopefully last night we showed Dish Network that we here at DBSTalk are really the voice of what their customers want.


I've sent my comments. Maybe if enough people send in their comments they will realize that they are close to losing some of thier best customers.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

Within an hour of the chat, I sent this letter to both Charlie Ergan and Mark Jackson. No reply as of now...

Mr. Ergen -

I write to you today as a long term Dish Network customer, HDTV viewer, and now very upset after the "Tech Chat" that aired tonight.

I have been a subscriber to Dish Network for over 4 years. I have purchased three receivers over the year, and had been planning for another new reciever in the near future.

Several years ago, I purchased a Dish 6000 HDTV receiver. When available, I purchased the OTA 8VSB module. Approximately a year ago, I purchased the 8PSK module along with the one year commitment to Discovery HD Theater. I also purchased a second dish to point at 148 to receive HD programming. This is the location and equipment I was told I would need to receive "all future Dish Network HD programming". This was announced on previous Charlie Chats, Tech Chats, and the info channels.

After 600-800 dollars in equipment, I am now told that I will have to purchase yet another new piece of equipment, the SuperDish, in order to recieve any new HDTV programming from Dish Network.

To make matters worse, Mark Jackson, tells us on the Tech Chat tonight that we should be happy to purchase this equipment because of Dish's commitment to HD, and their investment in new technologies to allow Dish to provide me (for a monthly subscription I'm sure) future HD programming. After all, Mark says, I paid a lot for my TV, so of course I'll want to spend more money on the equipment to receive future HDTV offerings. Future HD offerings which, as of now, have not even been announced or scheduled. An announcement several months ago about HDNet and HDNet movies does not do anything for me without a launch date announcement to go with it. Your competition launched their package several weeks ago, using existing technology and offering a very generous upgrade offer for receiving the third orbital location LNB. There have been no substantial hardware upgrades required of Directv subscribers as of this writing. Dish Network has the capacity right now to offer HDNet, HDNet Movies, ESPN HD, and the soon to be launched Bravo HD on the 148 and 61.5 wing locations. Why not use that location for a prolonged time, allowing people to slowly transition to the superdish?

When will this equipment purchasing end? I will NOT be purchasing a SuperDish, will NOT be purchasing a 921 (after this news tonight), and will NOT be subbing to any additional Dish programming at this point. I currently maintain a minimum amount of programming to Dish, as I was experimenting with my cable companies recent HD offerings. I was planning on fully reinstating my dish subscription in the next 2 weeks.

As of now, I will sub to a minimum amount of Dish programming for the next few months. Upon release of the Directv Tivo HD unit late this year, I will spend the money I allocated for a 921 and switch to Directv. I will not continually purchase new equipment from Dish simply because you "changed your mind" about your HD strategy.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I would appreciate any response you may have.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

I'm know that this is going to sound stupid, but isn't that the cost of being a early adopter of technology?


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

Z'Loth said:


> I'm know that this is going to sound stupid, but isn't that the cost of being a early adopter of technology?


Yes and no, in my opinion. It mainly has to do with the number of things Dish keeps telling us, one by one, that will be required in order to recieve future HD offerings. First, it was the mod for the 5000, then, the 8PSK for the 6000, now, it's the Superdish. Each time, they give the IMPRESSION that once you get that equipment, you will be set and ready to watch any HD you want.

Primarily, I was really ticked off my Mark Jackson specifically stating that I should just buy the dish already, since I already spent so much on my TV. It was very condescending, ignorant, and just plain bad business practice.

As late as April of this year, Dish ran the HD info channel, telling people to call and order their 8PSK module so they could continue to enjoy all future HD offerings. Now, we are being told to hurry and buy the Superdish so we can continue to enjoy HD offerings.

I know that they have changed their HD and general bandwidth strategies in the last 6 months, and I like what they are doing. However, to tell early adopters that we should just suck it up and buy whatever they tell us to buy, is very, very bad business sense. I'm afraid Charlie has likely lost a long term, high dollar, credit card autopay customer because of Mark Jackson's arrogance and stupidity.


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## nostar (Jun 22, 2003)

razorbackfan said:


> I dunno...it seemed like there was an inside joke going on with the blank stares, snickers, and the "you answer it", "no you answer it". And the guy saying that since people with HDTV spent a lot of money on their stuff, they need to spend even more for Dish stuff. Arrogant. I was going to take the HDTV plunge, but after last night, I think I'll wait another year.


I think that arrogant is a very good description of the show.

I hate to say it, but I think that this could be a wise decision on your part.

I'm old and I wanted to enjoy a little HD TV, but it appears that I was a little premature with my enthusiasm. For now, I enjoy DVD movies from NetFlix, Hd from Hbo, and an occasional event OTA from Tampa/St. Petersburg or Jaxsonville, both 97 air miles from Me.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

They better not require an additional SBCA certification test for the SuperDish installation because those that had already went would get ticked off if they had to go again already.

I thought they were going to have systems for the 811 and 921 with the SuperDish included with them?


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I do not think most will have a satellite pointed at both 61.5 and 148 at the same time in which would make it 5 slots at being the most if that even (61.5, 105, 110, 119, 121) and most would only need 105 or 121.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Jacob S said:


> I thought they were going to have systems for the 811 and 921 with the SuperDish included with them?


I'm sure they will. They just wanted to make sure that they announced the 921 as being under 1k. If they gave both standalone and bundle pricing, we would all know how much the superdish will cost and they either have determined the cost and know we will all be hella pissed when we find out and figure if they wait a while, we will calm down or they haven't figured what the cost will be yet because they really haven't made any real superdishes yet.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Jeff_R said:


> Primarily, I was really ticked off my Mark Jackson specifically stating that I should just buy the dish already, since I already spent so much on my TV. It was very condescending, ignorant, and just plain bad business practice.


I agree with this statement.

Dish should realize that their HD customers are their best customers, I am willing to bet that their HD customers spend more then the avg customer on their monthly service.

You would think that in this regard they would want to make HD owners happy by giving them a free upgrade to SuperDish which would lock in that customer for a long time to come.

My local cable system just started offering HDTV (HBO, Showtime, NBC, ABC and PBS currently) I feel if other cable systems hop on the waggon Dish could lose some of their best customers to those who will go to whoever can bring them the HD they are looking for.

Please stop nickle and diming us, make the superdish a free upgrade, lock us into a contract for a year for it, but please stop making me buy stuff I dont currently need to watch HDTV, I don't know how many times we have been told that if you have X then you have everything you need to watch HD on Dish Network.

And BTW this is not a complaint for the tech guys, they are not marketing folks, yes sometimes they say stuff which is not marketing friendly but hey they are not the marketing department.


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## Randy_B (Apr 23, 2002)

> And BTW this is not a complaint for the tech guys, they are not marketing folks, yes sometimes they say stuff which is not marketing friendly but hey they are not the marketing department.


 BUT, they do have a VP title in front of their names. That does make them responsible for what they say. PROFESSIONALISM. Being a "techie" is NO excuse for not having any.

It _might_ be acceptable from one of the peanut gallery or a an engineer in th eback that was not expecting to be on the air. But never from the two in front of the camera. Never.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Dish should realize that their HD customers are their best customers, I am willing to bet that their HD customers spend more then the avg customer on their monthly service.
> 
> You would think that in this regard they would want to make HD owners happy by giving them a free upgrade to SuperDish which would lock in that customer for a long time to come.
> 
> My local cable system just started offering HDTV (HBO, Showtime, NBC, ABC and PBS currently) I feel if other cable systems hop on the waggon Dish could lose some of their best customers to those who will go to whoever can bring them the HD they are looking for.


I agree that HD customers probably spend a lot more than average, but I also think that HD customers are a small minority. The big bucks are going to come when HD has a much larger audience, and Dish is positioning themselves for that point. They probably aren't too concerned about ticking off their exsisting HD customer because they are just the tip of the iceberg.

I do agree that it is unreasonable to tell exisiting HD customers they need to buy a superdish after they've already said all this other stuff is all you'll need. At the same time, early adopters often get burned, as someone else mentioned, and I don't understand why you would want to guy all this equipment when the HD offerings are still pretty limited anyway. But that's just me.

Dennis


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

dbronstein said:


> I do agree that it is unreasonable to tell exisiting HD customers they need to buy a superdish after they've already said all this other stuff is all you'll need. At the same time, early adopters often get burned, as someone else mentioned, and I don't understand why you would want to guy all this equipment when the HD offerings are still pretty limited anyway. But that's just me.


We bought the equipment because we wanted to be ready for "what's next". There are some channel announcements that come just days or weeks before launch. By having "all we need" already, we can just sit back and enjoy whatever is to come.

There will be quite a few new HD channels coming by the end of the year, like almost double what is currently available. Why wait until those channels are announced to get the hardware needed? After all, Dish told me when Discovery HD was launched that I needed the 8PSK and I could enjoy all future HD offerings. Although never specifically said, it was definately implied that 8PSK was all I would need.


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## DenR (Jun 6, 2003)

What equipment did people buy for the purpose of "what's next"? I bought a 6000 because it was needed for the content that dish currently had. Dish gave me the dish for 61.5 for free. They gave me the 8PSK free for just for paying for a year of DiscoveryHD up front. What's all this other equipment?


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Jeff_R said:


> We bought the equipment because we wanted to be ready for "what's next". There are some channel announcements that come just days or weeks before launch. By having "all we need" already, we can just sit back and enjoy whatever is to come.
> 
> There will be quite a few new HD channels coming by the end of the year, like almost double what is currently available. Why wait until those channels are announced to get the hardware needed? After all, Dish told me when Discovery HD was launched that I needed the 8PSK and I could enjoy all future HD offerings. Although never specifically said, it was definately implied that 8PSK was all I would need.


I don't know all of the HD history so this is an honest question. Have they ever sold equipment that wasn't needed for existing programming but would be needed for future offerings? Did they sell HD equipment without having firm launch dates for specific channels?

As for "why wait until the channels are announced?", I think it's a simple answer. Based on Dish's history, you don't know when anything will be launched or evenwhat will be launched, and Dish might change the hardware requirements by then. If you're going to spend this kind of money for channels that may or may not be offered at an unknown time in the future, then you have to be prepared to accept the risks.

Dennis


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## DenR (Jun 6, 2003)

As for "why wait until the channels are announced?", I think it's a simple answer. Based on Dish's history, you don't know when anything will be launched or evenwhat will be launched, and Dish might change the hardware requirements by then. If you're going to spend this kind of money for channels that may or may not be offered at an unknown time in the future, then you have to be prepared to accept the risks.

Dennis[/QUOTE]

The only additive piece of equipment was the 8PSK card. It is currently required for DiscoveryHD and the HD Events Channel. Most people either got the card free or payed $49 for it.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

This is why you need to get it in writing or some type of proof of what was stated about it being all you need to receiver what HD channels you have now or future HD channels in the future. If you do indeed get this information then this can be reported to your state's Attorney General and Better Busines Bureau if you present this to Dish without them giving you a satisfied response. This is misinterpretation of the product in which is misleading the public and false advertisement if this is in fact the case. Dish Network would have to deliver on any promises in which was made.


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## DenR (Jun 6, 2003)

It would certainly be interesting to see if Dish actually made this statement. I never heard any such thing from them. I was sold the equipment based on what was available at the time. In the end though, I bet they give you the Superdish for free or at a very low price (like DirectTV did for their oval dish) with a year commitment to the HD package.


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## cicijay (Jan 6, 2003)

DenR said:


> It would certainly be interesting to see if Dish actually made this statement. I never heard any such thing from them. I was sold the equipment based on what was available at the time. In the end though, I bet they give you the Superdish for free or at a very low price (like DirectTV did for their oval dish) with a year commitment to the HD package.


I didn't get a 6000 but I recall Dish claiming that all that was needed for future channels was the module. I thought I even heard it on the HDTV instruction channel.


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## DenR (Jun 6, 2003)

cicijay said:


> I didn't get a 6000 but I recall Dish claiming that all that was needed for future channels was the module. I thought I even heard it on the HDTV instruction channel.


I remember them saying that all future HD will be in 8PSK. Thats significantly different than saying that it will be all you will need.

The HD instructional channel did not come to exist until after most people has already received there 8PSK card.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

That is a good point. Maybe some had misinterpreted what was told to them thinking that Dish meant all hardware instead of the 8PSK module. I wonder how long it would be before another module will be able to roll out in which would enable more compression of HDTV.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

Dish never directly ever said "This is all you will ever need" to receive all new programming. It would be even more foolish than they have been in the past to make a direct statement like that. For that reason, I for one have never made any reference to any type of class action or other legal action against Dish.

However, with the demo channel and HD Info channel, it was definately implied that all you would need is the 8PSK mod. 

As for buying new equipment, ask any 5000 owner how they enjoy watching Discovery HD. They bought the HD module for their receiver, so they could enjoy HD content. Then, Dish changes their strategy and says "For any future HD content, you will need the 6000 AND 8PSK module. You will still recieve the channels you have today, but start thinking about upgrading.

Again, I understand that Dish has changed their strategy, and it will be best in the long run. However, Mark Jackson made a comment that struck me in two ways:

1. I will have to purchase the Superdish and be happy about it because Dish is actually doing ME a favor, and;
2. Since I already paid good money for my TV and receiver I should just shut up already and buy the Superdish.

If in fact dish does offer the Superdish for nothing more than a programming commitment, I am fine with that. That, however, is not what Mark Jackson stated or implied. He stated, in plain english, that I must buy the SuperDish.


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## dlsnyder (Apr 24, 2002)

Does anyone know if it would even be possible to use a stand-alone Ku dish and LNB to receive the new programming at 105 or 121? What kind of switch would be needed? If you already have the hardware lying around to press into service would your box recognize it at this point?


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

The lnbf would have to be a different type than what DirecTv and Dish uses, the same type that is used on the dishes that pick up medium power satellites that are about the size of a Primestar dish.


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## dlsnyder (Apr 24, 2002)

It would just need to be a standard Ku LNBF using H/V polarity, right?


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## DenR (Jun 6, 2003)

Jeff_R said:


> Dish never directly ever said "This is all you will ever need" to receive all new programming. It would be even more foolish than they have been in the past to make a direct statement like that. For that reason, I for one have never made any reference to any type of class action or other legal action against Dish.
> 
> However, with the demo channel and HD Info channel, it was definately implied that all you would need is the 8PSK mod.
> 
> ...


One thing they did mention is that the marketing guys were going to come out with some deals. We will probably find out more in next month's chat.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

DenR said:


> One thing they did mention is that the marketing guys were going to come out with some deals. We will probably find out more in next month's chat.


Scott G is already "seeing the future" and predicts a free Superdish with one year commitment to AT100 and the yet to be announced HD package.

That would be OK with me, as long as that HD package is announced very, very soon.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Can anyone seeing the SuperDish included in all systems in the future just like they did with Dish 500 eventually? Probably not but maybe a choice of two systems, one will have a Dish 500 and the other a SuperDish for a little more or not anything more if you subscribe to locals or take a certain promotion needing that dish.


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

Jeff_R said:


> Dish never directly ever said "This is all you will ever need" to receive all new programming. It would be even more foolish than they have been in the past to make a direct statement like that. For that reason, I for one have never made any reference to any type of class action or other legal action against Dish.
> 
> However, with the demo channel and HD Info channel, it was definately implied that all you would need is the 8PSK mod.
> 
> ...


Your quote on what he said doesn't even come close. he said something to the effect that dish had to spend millions of dollars for the new superdish technology and that the consumers were going to have to bear some of the pain.

ken


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## bluuz (Jul 3, 2003)

Sorry, but the whole SuperDish story sounds like vapor to me, possibly talk to puff stock or maybe just dreaming. I'm not saying there isn't some current "plan" in place to offer the SuperDish at some point in the future, but I am saying that no one at Dish knows what date on which the service will go live, and further that they do not know what channels the package will include. And who really knows what stage they're at as far as developing all this new hardware. No doubt there is some team at Dish working on the project, but the project could suffer "delays" for the next five years or be scuttled altogether, if you know what I mean. I dunno, maybe we'll see this thing by the end of the year, or maybe Dish is just spinning to keep their foot in the HD door and will wait until HD subscriber demand increases.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

kstevens said:


> Your quote on what he said doesn't even come close. he said something to the effect that dish had to spend millions of dollars for the new superdish technology and that the consumers were going to have to bear some of the pain.
> 
> ken


Ken,

Mark's quote was something along the lines of "We built all of this structure to deliver all this HD material to you, it's only fair that you get the SuperDish to help us offset the investment. Besides, you've already spent a lot of money on your HDTV and equipment, so this isn't really that big an additional cost."

This is not the exact quote, but pretty close. The words, along with tone and attitude, sent a strong message to me and really annoyed me. My take was that we should just be happy, buy whatever they tell us to buy, then get the programming to go along with it.

Jeff


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

Jeff_R said:


> Ken,
> 
> Mark's quote was something along the lines of "We built all of this structure to deliver all this HD material to you, it's only fair that you get the SuperDish to help us offset the investment. Besides, you've already spent a lot of money on your HDTV and equipment, so this isn't really that big an additional cost."
> 
> ...


And that is your interpretation, it wasn't mine.

ken


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

kstevens said:


> And that is your interpretation, it wasn't mine.
> 
> ken


Whoops, I should have added, you shouldn't report your interpretation as fact, say what he said and let everyone interpret it as they wish.

Ken


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## Tron (Mar 29, 2003)

Lee L said:


> Also, to use their own logic, if they have spent hundreds of millions of dollars on HD, why not spend a few hundred thousand more to help all the people that have invested in equipment upgrades in good faith so we don;t all go to D* or Cable and tell all our freinds to do the same. Surely E*'s profitability does not hing on such a paltry sum?


This is like a car dealer saying "You are willing to giveup this deal over $300?" 
And I say " No, YOU are willing to give up the deal for $300" and then walk out.

This is why you can't have tech guys making marketing presentations. Examples:

"Well, you already spend lots of money... you shouldn't complain!"
OR, "Well, you might be buying our receiver just to get off the air signals!" OR "Hey! We spent lots of money, you should be grateful! Share our pain!" Etc...

Tech guys usually are more abrasive, accusatory, and harsh when it comes to things like that.

Also, I liked how Kummer thought the 721 had a screensaver... I guess he's not that up-to-date with what's going on.

If the 921 "Flagship" is going to be like the 721 "Flagship" especially the bug/upgrade path..well, I just don't know. Dish might have to solely rely upon 'early-adapters' for this new equipment.

I also found it interesting there were no demos of any of the new products.

Finally, Charlie has been quoted as saying he is willing to do more to retain the high-end customers. So, I'm sure people that have America's Everything Pack, plus locals, plus HD, HD-discovery, and high-end receivers will have nothing to worry about when it comes to the new Superdish equipment. 
Or is the new company mission staement going to be "Well, you already spend lots of money... you shouldn't complain!"

We shall see...


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

kstevens said:


> Whoops, I should have added, you shouldn't report your interpretation as fact, say what he said and let everyone interpret it as they wish.
> 
> Ken


Sorry Ken. I thought I had been pretty clear up to now about my feelings and that I INTERPRETED what Mark Jackson stated several times in this and one other thread.

I am a long term Dish subscriber, and don't really have any desire to switch providers. However, Jackson definately struck a chord with me and the tone he took.

Sorry if I lead you to believe, in an admittedly sarcastic INTERPRETATION of his statement, that he stated something as a fact.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I just saw the end of the Tech Chat Rebroadcast and seen where a few from this site won 508 receivers and also where someone from this site had called in and mentioned DBSTalk. Did that person get the prize for mentioning this site?

When I heard Mark say what he said about having to pay for the SuperDish and some of these things to receive these new channels, I did not interpret him in a harsh way that some may have thought. I also think its fair in a sense for consumers to pay for some of the cost if Dish is willing to fork out a lot in this as well. It takes compromise and what it seemed like Mark was saying was that those that forked out a lot for their HD tv's should not be making a big a deal about shelling out a little more to pick up the HD channels, that if you do have the money for the tv then you probably have the money for the dish as well. That does not mean that they are trying to make a profit off of you on the dish or hardware, but that you should do your part as well, and it also does not mean that they are not going to give people a promotion on these dishes as well.


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## JMikeF (May 2, 2003)

> I also think its fair in a sense for consumers to pay for some of the cost if Dish is willing to fork out a lot in this as well.


I could't disagree with you more, and I'm not alone!

I'm willing to pay for services rendered - and the marketplace will determine a fair price. Having owned a retail operation for over 20 years, I know a thing or two about pricing in a competitive marketplace. What Mark said is inexcusable. I never asked my customers to bare the cost of introducing new 'systems' up front. I provided what I considered 'quality service' to keep them coming back so I could amortize any capital improvements over time. Mark is saying that we will foot the bill up front.

And I say: SCREW THEM!

PS - I'm fairly new to this board. What relationship do you have to Dish, since you seem to be an apologist for them.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I have to agree with some of the complaints. It does seem that Dish has been somewhat disorganized, at least outwardly when giving information about products and progamming. But It is still early on for HD technology and this is what happens when you are willing to spend money on new technology. You can complain that Dish said this or that, but this happens with most all companies that are among the first with technology. It seems to me Direct will eventually face this similar problem as they add more HD progamming. At sometime won't they need to have subscribers get a new dish and very possibly new technology requiring a new receiver or at least an add on? Perhaps Dish is actually ahead of them in getting this out of the way now. But I do agree that Dish has got to handle this better and get out only "good" information not just something they think might happen.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

> _" I also think its fair in a sense for consumers to pay for some of the cost if Dish is willing to fork out a lot in this as well."_


For once, I agree with Jacob. Those who want to upgrade to HD should expect to bear (not bare) the incremental cost. If you want no increase in equipment costs, stay with what you have. It's that simple. I do not expect Echostar to give me anything. If they give me (us) a break on price, or even slip me a freebie, that's fine., but I don't think any of us have an entitlement, except, perhaps Scott G., but, then, he *is* our resident OOB tester. :righton: :kisscheek: :goofygrin



> JMikeF: _"And I say: SCREW THEM!"_


 OUCH! Now _that_ was really pleasant!


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

Nick said:


> For once, I agree with Jacob. Those who want to upgrade to HD should expect to bear (not bare) the incremental cost. If you want no increase in equipment costs, stay with what you have. It's that simple. I do not expect Echostar to give me anything. If they give me (us) a break on price, or even slip me a freebie, that's fine., but I don't think any of us have an entitlement, except, perhaps Scott G., but, then, he *is* our resident OOB tester. :righton: :kisscheek: :goofygrin
> 
> OUCH! Now _that_ was really pleasant!


None of us have complained about having to get new equipment, or the costs of new equipment. What we are complaining about is that Dish seems to have the attitude that HDTV owners can afford whatever equipment Dish decides we need, and they incimentally decide what equipment that might be. How many more "that's all you need" statements are we going to hear?

I was very excited, actually. to hear about the superdish. They have significantly added to their bandwidth and diverified their satellite assets, which is all good for their subs.

I am very, very upset over the way Mark Jackson stated (and my interpretation of his statement) over the fact that HD owners should be willing to just get whatever they say we need, since it will be a small price compared to what we've already paid. As a Vice President of Echostar, Mark made a very ignorant and arrogant statement about a segment of his company's customers who tend to pay significantly more than the average consumer.


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## DenR (Jun 6, 2003)

Jeff_R said:


> None of us have complained about having to get new equipment, or the costs of new equipment. What we are complaining about is that Dish seems to have the attitude that HDTV owners can afford whatever equipment Dish decides we need, and they incimentally decide what equipment that might be. How many more "that's all you need" statements are we going to hear?
> 
> I was very excited, actually. to hear about the superdish. They have significantly added to their bandwidth and diverified their satellite assets, which is all good for their subs.
> 
> I am very, very upset over the way Mark Jackson stated (and my interpretation of his statement) over the fact that HD owners should be willing to just get whatever they say we need, since it will be a small price compared to what we've already paid. As a Vice President of Echostar, Mark made a very ignorant and arrogant statement about a segment of his company's customers who tend to pay significantly more than the average consumer.


I agree that Mark Jackson's comments were not helpful. That sometimes happens though when you put an engineering type in front of a camera, and make him talk about marketing issues. Most likely, he has no idea on how much we will or wont be paying for the superdish. In fact he said there will be "deals worked out by the marketing people.

As I have stated before, the only thing I, and a majority of the Dish's HD viewers, have payed for to get HD from Dish has been a receiver. Everything else Dish has provided for free. I think it's premature to start complaining how much dish is making you pay before they have actually said that you need to pay!


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

DenR said:


> I agree that Mark Jackson's comments were not helpful. That sometimes happens though when you put an engineering type in front of a camera, and make him talk about marketing issues. Most likely, he has no idea on how much we will or wont be paying for the superdish. In fact he said there will be "deals worked out by the marketing people.
> 
> As I have stated before, the only thing I, and a majority of the Dish's HD viewers, have payed for to get HD from Dish has been a receiver. Everything else Dish has provided for free. I think it's premature to start complaining how much dish is making you pay before they have actually said that you need to pay!


Mark jackson is a Vice President of Echostar Technologies. He should not be making statements like this publicly. Regardless of how he covers his rear by saying "the marketing people will make some deals", he is, nonetheless, very top and very senior management at Echostar. He was speaking on behalf of the company, and made an incredibly ignorant comment.

5000 owners bought an HD module for their receiver and were told "this is all you need". Then, more people bought the 6000 and were told "this is all you need". Later, they added the 8PSK module and we were again told "this is all you need". (Many of us, BTW, paid cash money for our 8PSK, not a freebie.) Now, we are being told to get the Superdish and "this is all you need".

In addition, Mark says, we should be happy to help Dish subsidize their latest technologies, because it's a small investment compared to what we paid for our televisions.

How many more "this is all you will need" are we going to hear?


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2003)

It upsets me too that they singled out us HD viewers as having to pay up front and share the pain. What they are actually doing is trying to recoup some infrastructure cost right away and putting some burden on the customer. What's wrong about this? What's wrong is that these infrastructure build-outs are vital to their long term competitiveness and they look to the HD guys to help them out.

I feel we should be left with the choice of which receivers to buy and E* should be supplying everything else we need to get the signal in the house. Sell us the service and the IRDs. Then install everything to make it work. Of course there'll be C.C. auto-pay and commitment to service bla bla bla......

Come on E*, this is the stuff vital to your business, not vital to me to get HD.


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

Let's see, here's my story and I'm sticking to it....

I bought a Mitsubishi 65" HDTV in 2001. CBS became available to me a little later in the year via Dish so I purchased a Model 6000. Oh, by the way, the HD channels are on 148, so I had to also purchase a Dish300. A few months later, Dish added all of the locals in my area and, guess what, some of them were on 148 and Dish would install it for free. Oh well, bad timing I guess. So, I was hoping that Dish would add ABC, NBC, PBS and Fox to CBS, but, alas, not then, not now. OK, I said, let's put up an antenna, I'm aways from the transmitters, the Dish installer tells me that I'd be lucky to get anything, but I go for it anyway. Oh, by the way, I also need to purchase an 8VSB module. I have some success, I'm able to get ABC and NBC, no Fox or PBS. I've got CBS from Dish, so I'm OK, Fox doesn't do HD anyway although there are some PBS HD programs that I'd love to watch. So, Dish next comes up with 8PSK and Discovery HD Theater. OK, I'll take Discovery for a year and they'll give me the 8PSK module. I really get tired of the reruns on Discovery, but I did enjoy some NBA of the Special Events channel. Now, it seems that all of the HD programming is going to move over to 105 and I need SuperDish. They tell me that as an HDTV owner I obviously have the cash to help the transition. Maybe I do, but what am I, a money tree? When does it end?


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

DenR said:


> IAs I have stated before, the only thing I, and a majority of the Dish's HD viewers, have payed for to get HD from Dish has been a receiver. Everything else Dish has provided for free. I think it's premature to start complaining how much dish is making you pay before they have actually said that you need to pay!


You are much luckier then I am then I guess. I paid list for a 6000, list for an 8VSB, I did get a 8PSK for 'free' since I paid for a year of the Discovery-HD repeat channel, I had to pay list for the Dish 300 for 61.5 (and the installation) and pay list for the SW64.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I am a long time Dish subscriber (April, 1997), starting out with a 3000 and AT-50. Dish added channels and I went to AT 100 with no additional equipment. When the Dishplayer and AT 150 became available I upgraded to both, committing to the programming packages and credit card auto pay as required. I did the same when the 501 came out. 

When local channels were put on 148 I got the free additional dish and a SW64.

When they gave me the SW-64 I knew (at the time) I was HD ready. I then purchased a HDTV and a 6000-8VSB at full retail ($650.00) and added an outdoor antenna (for Local HD)and a 61.5 dish (for the demo channel and WCBS HD).

I am also paying 10.00 an month for additional receiver fees since both the 6000 and 501 are on same set.

This was last year (May 2002). I was a happy camper.  

My expectations were that Dish would continue to add HD programming (that I could choose to get or not) and take care of me as their customer.

About this time things seemed to change. 

Dish sent out some downloads that really screwed up my Dishpalyer. Calls to Dish resulted in no satisfaction, no fixes and no upgrade path.

The 6000 interface was not has good as I expected and only one channel (Discovery HD) was added during last year. (BTW, over the air HD in Denver is a joke, but don't get me started on that).

Dish earlier this year offered the 8PSK adapter for $49.00 and I jumped on it since they said new HD programming was coming. (BTW where is that programming?)

Then they announce HD Net and Movies and SuperDish.

I watch the Tech Chat and they say that they will charge for the Superdish.

I guess I am at a point that I am tired of throwing money at HD. I don't feel I have gotten my money's worth out of my 6000. A good HD programming package at $10.00 per month I would probably go for. Add an additional $100.00 on top of that for the Superdish, and I will probably try and sell my 6000 and try to recover my losses.

HD is great, but not that great. :nono2:


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Well said, Phil. You speak for a lot of us. I don't even have an HD-ready monitor yet, and truth be known, I can live without HD. It is not a "need" I have, just a long-time "want" in my life-long pursuit of having a modest 'home-theater' setup. As I see my potential entry cost for HD rise with every new announcement, I am now seriously re-evaluating whether I even _want_ to bear the costs for HD, which I now estimate at between $3,000 and $4,000, not including monthly subscription costs.

As I struggle with myself on the cost/benefit issue, high-definition television, about which I am just as enthusiastic as ever, may become a casualty of my lifelong battle between unlimited wants vs. limited means. On the other hand, I can't afford a mansion, a yacht or a Ferrarri either.

Bottom line: I must be realistic. After all, it's only TV. And what's the point of having a beautiful picture if, as always seems to be the case, there's nothing to watch anyway? :shrug:


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## HTguy (May 7, 2002)

Jeff_R said:


> 5000 owners bought an HD module for their receiver and were told "this is all you need". Then, more people bought the 6000 and were told "this is all you need". Later, they added the 8PSK module and we were again told "this is all you need". (Many of us, BTW, paid cash money for our 8PSK, not a freebie.) Now, we are being told to get the Superdish and "this is all you need"...
> 
> How many more "this is all you will need" are we going to hear?


Would you be so kind as to document a single instance where the phrase "this is all you need" was used on any chat, tech forum, info video, etc.?


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## DenR (Jun 6, 2003)

Nick said:


> Well said, Phil. You speak for a lot of us. I don't even have an HD-ready monitor yet, and truth be known, I can live without HD. It is not a "need" I have, just a long-time "want" in my life-long pursuit of having a modest 'home-theater' setup. As I see my potential entry cost for HD rise with every new announcement, I am now seriously re-evaluating whether I even _want_ to bear the costs for HD, which I now estimate at between $3,000 and $4,000, not including monthly subscription costs.
> 
> As I struggle with myself on the cost/benefit issue, high-definition television, about which I am just as enthusiastic as ever, may become a casualty of my lifelong battle between unlimited wants vs. limited means. On the other hand, I can't afford a mansion, a yacht or a Ferrarri either.
> 
> Bottom line: I must be realistic. After all, it's only TV. And what's the point of having a beautiful picture if, as always seems to be the case, there's nothing to watch anyway? :shrug:


I don't see prices rising, I see them falling. Dish announced a $299 receiver with OTA capability built in. HD monitors are cheaper than ever.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

HTguy said:


> Would you be so kind as to document a single instance where the phrase "this is all you need" was used on any chat, tech forum, info video, etc.?


For starters, did you happen to watch the HDTV Info channel that was run about the time Dish was supposed to start broadcasting ESPN-HD?

Did you listen to Mark Jackson on the last tech chat?


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

There are always going to be people that take what someone says into different context and always going to be unhappy people and people with different thoughts on things.

I believe that it is bad that some if not all will have to pay some type of cost for a SuperDish. The good news is that there will be a LOT more HD content in which should be worth the cost and also the prices will drop in which should make up for the cost of the dish. You would get more bang for your buck. Also Dish is probably going to have a promotion sometime in the future if you order a HD package for so long you get a free SuperDish or one at a reduced cost (I bet free eventually when they ramp up production and the first ones already get their hardware). It is more expensive when you are the first ones to use it just like anyone else.

HD seems to have not matured yet in which there is a common platform to stay at for a while. Dish is doing these things to benefit themselves and the customers. Would it be better to have not offered a SuperDish and a lot more HD capability?

I do see what some are saying about the comment in which how it could be interpreted in another way. People have to really watch what they say and how they say it, including myself, in which I have said things the wrong way before and got misinterpreted.


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## HTguy (May 7, 2002)

Jeff_R said:


> For starters, did you happen to watch the HDTV Info channel that was run about the time Dish was supposed to start broadcasting ESPN-HD?
> 
> Did you listen to Mark Jackson on the last tech chat?


Yes, I certainly did. I have seen almost every chat & tech forum ever broadcast. I watched the HDTV info video 2 or 3 times.

I have never heard anyone _ever_ say, _"This is all you need."_ or any words to that effect.

I have heard a couple of instances where they stated that for future HD programming this (8PSK module) or that (SuperDish) will be necessary. But that's not the same thing as saying, "This is all you will ever need."

I'm not quibling over semantics, either. The phrases have entirely different meanings.

As a matter of fact, as the technology evolves, more HD programming becomes available and more spacecraft are added to the constellation to provide these & other services I wouldn't be surprised if new & different hardware options become necessary at some point.


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

The Superdish is a huge deal for Dish and the future of HD. I think it is a tremendous boost to DBS as a whole that they are using another transmission technology to deliver more services to our homes.

However, Mark Jackson very clearly stated that we would have to buy the dish, not upgrade to the dish. Additionally, Dish has delayed the launch of additional HD channels by many months and have recently pushed it back even further, to allow for the newer technologies. 

Add to that Dish's history of nickel and diming us for other hardware in order to recieve HD, and there's good reason to be a little annoyed with the way Dish is handling their HDTV customers. 

Mark's statement that since we paid so much for our TV that we should be happy to help them push new techologies is only fair was, for me, the final straw. That one statement rubbed me completely raw. It is a statement that will without a doubt cause them to lose some HD subs. 

This is simply their policy and the way they choose to do business. The best thing we can do if we don't like it is to vote with our pocketbooks and quit paying for their service and equipment.

I hope this thread doesn't get too contentious between those who are upset and others who don't understand why we are upset. Dish made a statement that many of us are upset about, and that can't be denied or disputed.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Jacob S,
Who are you and what have you done with the real Jacob S?  

I too have to agree with your posts on this issue. What was said on Tech Chat should not have been said. That aside, I too expect there to be upgrade discounts given after a little time. Functionality seems to be going up and cost going down of the new receivers. $999 may not exactly be cheap, but it is better than many would have thought a year ago for this type of receiver. If you bought an HD recorder and a single tuner HD receiver with no OTA, it would have cost more than that. Compared to cable, in most instances and not including short term cable discounts, programming on Satellite is still cheaper than cable. Also, used SD receivers to use as a second receiver are a dime a dozen. Bottom line, is what Jacob S said, would we rather Dish not do anything? They said all along that the merger was needed to accomplish what they are trying to accomplish now. So they have to keep on working on getting us what we want with what they have or can have soon. Again, I do think they need to better communicate when giving information on new equipment and programming. And I really think they might be going thru what Direct will have to at some time if Direct is going to expand HD viewing. If they did say nothing else would ever be needed than shame on Dish, but I think we might have inferred that rather than that being what they said.


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

HTguy said:


> Yes, I certainly did. I have seen almost every chat & tech forum ever broadcast. I watched the HDTV info video 2 or 3 times.
> 
> I have never heard anyone _ever_ say, _"This is all you need."_ or any words to that effect.
> 
> ...


I agree with all you say here. The wording went something like "you need this for all future HD programming." I don't remember Super Dish ever being mentioned.

I think the point might be, when does it end? When can I stop spending money on hardware and get HD programming?

I am believing that EchoStar will give us (the backbone) a break here. I'm ready to buy the 921 and swear to an HD package for a year, just give me the damned dish!!!


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Its like computers, always having to upgrade. Technology will never give us a break here, it is always going to advance, and its advancing so fast that it does not have time to set in. By the time you just think you are getting comfortable with what you got something else new comes out. Things are a bit different now than what they used to be and also satellite is viewed different now than what it used to be, at least in my eyes. 

This is exactly why I had said time and time again that they need to make receivers upgradable, and now perhaps dishes as well, to where you can replace a circuit board with another one to upgrade to the lastest and greatest. Perhaps some thought needs to be put on easing the burden of upgrading by having receivers upgradable without replacement as I just mentioned and new type of dishes (arrays) to come out that are smaller in size and be able to pick up multiple satellites at once. If made in bulk it would be cheaper.


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## nostar (Jun 22, 2003)

Let's wait for them (Dish Network) to come up with the HD programing and the equipment needed for it's reception. Then and only then should we buy their programing and equipment.

For now we are just helping to finance their move to HD. Let all of their customers pay for the conversion to HD.

I'm beginging to believe that "SD Television rules"!!


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

nostar said:


> Let's wait for them (Dish Network) to come up with the HD programing and the equipment needed for it's reception. Then and only then should we buy their programing and equipment.
> 
> For now we are just helping to finance their move to HD. Let all of their customers pay for the conversion to HD.
> 
> I'm beginging to believe that "SD Television rules"!!


And I'm beginning to believe that if we followed your advice we would still be using flint and tender to start fires.

Ken


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## jrbdmb (Sep 5, 2002)

kstevens said:


> And I'm beginning to believe that if we followed your advice we would still be using flint and tender to start fires.
> 
> Ken


I think the point is all the money spend E* subscribers have spent so far for HD (over $1000 in some cases) have gotten then five channels of HD content (Discovery, HBO, Showtime, PPV, and maybe CBS). Perhaps it would be more prudent to wait for till the new content is on the air before spending more $$$. I certainly would not spend anything for a promise of "future programming", given E* track record in that regard.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Lets not forget their Big Screen and receiver package for $1,499 offer. Hopefully that does not get outdated either (at least the tv shouldnt).

Early adopters will have to pay a lot to get a little rather than waiting to pay a little to get a lot. Look at C-Band and how much it cost to buy a satellite system vs. today. It was free though when it first came out but later on when it started costing money then it would have been better for most to pay so much a month and get a system for a lot cheaper. Even the DirecTv systems used to be almost $1,000 when they first came out.


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## wmayo (Dec 1, 2002)

Now think ... they didn't say "this is all you will ever need;" they said "you will need this to receive any future HD programming."

My complaint is that it has been almost two years since they added any new HD channels (somewhere between 1 1/2 to 2). I think it was CBS-HD (for what limited group that is good for).
I'm for truth in advertising. They can no longer say we are the leaders in HDTV. They might can say we are gonna be, or gonna be again, but please, none of this "we are currently on the forefront" type talk.

But ya know, it's gonna be clear pretty soon (is there a pun there?). Either E* is going to have these things come to fruition in the next couple of months or so, or there's gonna be a huge thud ... one potentially serious for the company.
It reminds me a little bit of the old Atari Corp. which after their early boom years, were taken over by the Tramiels ... then after a time, there were horrible delays, vapor everything, and some serious problems with dealer treatment. They became the definition of shooting themselves in the foot, and alienating customers and dealers. I'm NOT saying this is what will be the result here. But, they COULD be poised to have a similar experience.

But equally possible (I think probably more likely), we may see an Aug. 15 (or some other reasonable date) implementation of HDNet, ESPN-HD, and/or BravoHD, etc.; some deal like $99 upgrade to Superdish (w or w/o prog. commitment), and surprising rollout of further new HD channels. 

I'm not saying the next Charlie Chat is a total "maker" or "breaker", but it's close for a lot of folks it seems. Here's hoping that we finally see some action.


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## Greg Johnson (May 3, 2003)

Lets just say for example that wmayo's 99.00 upgrade price for the Superdish holds true.
If I understand things correctly,that would mean for my system (sw64, 6000, 4000 and 2800) I would have to purchase a DP34 switch @ 124.99. Either 2 dish pro adapters @ 69.99 each or 2 301 receivers @ 109.99 each. These prices are from Dishdepot's website. So if I went with the adapter route, I'm going to spend 365.00. If I went with the new receiver route, it would be 445.00.
I really want more HD channels, but this seems like an awful lot of money. Especially when the most a existing HD *D* customer had to spend to get the new HD package was 49.99 for a SatC kit.

Greg


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Wouldn't the SuperDish have some of these switches built in? Would it be worth $100 or $200 to get a lot of additional HD channels?


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## Jeff_R (Jun 11, 2002)

Jacob S said:


> Wouldn't the SuperDish have some of these switches built in? Would it be worth $100 or $200 to get a lot of additional HD channels?


It might be worth it for additional channels. My main hesitation would be if that is it, or is there something else that we will need in yet another year or so.


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## Greg Johnson (May 3, 2003)

Can anyone please verify from my post above if I am technically correct with my info for upgading to the Superdish with legacy equipment.

Greg


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Greg Johnson said:


> Can anyone please verify from my post above if I am technically correct with my info for upgading to the Superdish with legacy equipment.
> 
> Greg


Its still confused.

Its not clear what the superdish alone can hook to other then dishpro receeivers without adapters. Apparently several configurations exist.

The DPP 44 switch apparently can connect to the 4 satellite possitions and distribute to 4 receivers (most receivers) without adapters. It also can pass signals to an additional adapter. It apparently includes legacy adapter capability. A diplexer near the receiver can also handle both connections of the 721 or 921 so only one of wire (to the diplexer) can handle these receivers.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

DPP 44 seems to be the waive of the future. I bet we start seeing this and the two signal feeds in one line switch solutions when the SuperDish comes out and when the dual tuner receivers come out (322 and 522).


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