# AM21 and OTA Canadian Stations



## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

Hi All:

I'd like to recommend that the recently-closed thread on the AM21's OTA reception of Canadian stations should be kept opened and/or merged with this thread, as it raises quite an important issue for U.S. DirecTV customers in Canadian-border areas (within reception range of Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Windsor and Vancouver as examples). As many may know, August 31, 2011 is the upcoming deadline for Canadian TV stations in larger cities to switch to digital broadcasting, with exceptions allowing smaller-market Canadian stations to remain in analog for some additional period of time. Some Canadian stations in larger cities have already begun digital broadcasting, with others beginning at various times up to the August deadline. Thus, this issue is just now starting to take on increased importance for affected viewers (which is probably the reason why the parent thread was resurrected after a long silent period).

As I understand it, since the AM21 OTA receivers (which can only receive digital, not analog, broadcasts by design) are not capable of scanning for received stations on their own, they can only receive a given OTA station (including subchannels) if that particular station is listed in the Tribune Media/Zap2It.com database AND DirecTV chooses to include that particular station in its on-screen station guide. There have been rumors suggesting that certain low-powered digital stations and certain digital subchannels have not been chosen for guide listing by DirecTV (making them not receivable by the AM21s) because of guide data capacity limitations, although it does not appear that such limitation has been confirmed.

In many U.S. areas within reception range of Canadian cities, a number of Canadian network stations have been carried by cable companies for years (in analog). These include CBC, Global, CTV, A-Network, TV Ontario and others. Presumably, at least some digital broadcasts for these Canadian stations are either already being carried by U.S. cable companies in Canadian-border areas, or will be carried when they become available shortly. It is perhaps not likely that DirecTV will carry any Canadian networks via satellite once their digital broadcasting begins, for various reasons. However, DirecTV will be at a competitive disadvantage (and its U.S. customers adversely affected) in these areas of the U.S. if it does not at least provide the AM21 with the real and virtual channel assignments for the new Canadian digital stations so that the AM21 can at least receive these Canadian stations via antenna, even if no guide data showing programming is provided.

As an example, we have six neighboring Canadian network stations in our area (all still in analog for the moment), and when I try to sell friends on DirecTV (hoping to get a few $100 referrals), many say "forget it, no way" as soon as they find out that they can't see "Hockey Night in Canada" on CBC via DirecTV, since every cable provider around here includes CBC in their standard lineup. Hopefully, once more of the Canadian stations begin broadcasting in digital as the year goes on, such that this issue becomes more well-known, DirecTV will at least add the real and virtual channel assignments (along with the station/network identification) for these new Canadian digital stations into its database/guide, so that the AM21s can then receive them. AM21 owners can, of course, just insert a splitter or A/B switch (as I do right now) into their antenna line just before their tv/DirecTV receiver and use the tv's tuner to view those channels that DirecTV won't allow the AM21s to view. But many people don't want the hassle of having to do this switch, as it's more convenient to simply have all receivable channels in a single on-screen lineup, and having the AM21 able to receive these stations is the only way they can be recorded via DVR.

Hope this is helpful for fully understanding the situation affecting some of us. I'd imagine the same issue could exist for areas in the U.S. near some of the larger Mexican border cities.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Let's keep this thread going and the old one closed, ok? And in the future please come to me directly instead of questioning my decisions in public. Thanks.


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## Coca Cola Kid (Jul 19, 2009)

gcd0865 said:


> Hi All:
> 
> As an example, we have six neighboring Canadian network stations in our area (all still in analog for the moment), and when I try to sell friends on DirecTV (hoping to get a few $100 referrals), many say "forget it, no way" as soon as they find out that they can't see "Hockey Night in Canada" on CBC via DirecTV, since every cable provider around here includes CBC in their standard lineup.


Tell them Hockey Night in Canada is simulcast on the American version of NHL Network (DirecTV channel 215).


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I believe some people have experimented with using a different US market that has one or more digital stations on the same channels as neighboring Canadian stations, and been able to "trick" the DirecTV receiver into getting the particular channel. However, the last I heard of this was in the early days of the HR20, which had OTA tuners incorporated into it. I don't know if anyone has tried, or succeeded, in doing the same with the AM21. (I have not read the other thread, so if this has been previously mentioned I apologize for wasting the bandwidth.)

I do not expect DirecTV will ever have an OTA tuner that will scan for OTA channels, so the best you will be able to do (if you can do it at all), is the above mentioned work-around. Nor do I expect they would incorporate the isolated few bordering Canadian markets. I don't know the legal implications or complications of doing so, but the total potential market is what I would consider trivial compared to the total customer base. Just not the business justification to pursue it.

Of course, receiving directly on your TV set is the simplest method for those in range of a Canadian market.


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## Rob77 (Sep 24, 2007)

Goes back to the same old issue.....letting the AM-21 scan would be so easy, and yet, D* will not do it. Maybe it's time for some interprising engineer to begin tinkering


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

The AM-21 could "scan" or the whole problem could be fixed via the listings. All they have to do, let us use Detroit for an example, is add the Windsor channel numbers as possible channels to the listings. There really is no reason to even have listings, just have "Canadian" show up in the guide 24/7.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

While nobody is going to knock on your door and give you a ticket, receiving Canadian channels in the US and US channels in Canada, is against the laws.
Having either the HR20 or the AM21 scan for channels has always been seen as "a good idea", but the guide data for US customers will be limited to US channels.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

After all these years I still can't believe we don't have a U.S. version of CBC. Yet they can receive all of our network shows and cable channels up there.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> While nobody is going to knock on your door and give you a ticket, receiving Canadian channels in the US and US channels in Canada, is against the laws.
> Having either the HR20 or the AM21 scan for channels has always been seen as "a good idea", but the guide data for US customers will be limited to US channels.


What source are you referencing that states that receiving Canadian TV stations in the US, and vise versa, is illegal? So, you say that the cable companies in both countries that carry each other's cross border stations are committing a crime?


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> While nobody is going to knock on your door and give you a ticket, receiving Canadian channels in the US and US channels in Canada, is against the laws.


Completely false. It is perfectly legal. WNED in Buffalo (PBS) even markets to Canadians to pledge.


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## usnret (Jan 16, 2009)

Just hook up a Tivo to an antenna, if your in the Detroit area, and off you go.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

peano said:


> Completely false. It is perfectly legal. WNED in Buffalo (PBS) even markets to Canadians to pledge.


I was going off the SAT limits and reading a Canadian forum, where US OTA is illegal there:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=3205&page=3

"I stand corrected"


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

US satellite is illegal. OTA is not. Which, when you think about it, is totally ridiculous, but that is for another thread.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

peano said:


> US satellite is illegal. OTA is not. Which, when you think about it, is totally ridiculous, but that is for another thread.


The FCC is fine with Canadian channels here, but the Canadians aren't with US channel there. They're trying to promote their own homegrown industry, but that is for another thread/forum.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

veryoldschool said:


> The FCC is fine with Canadian channels here, but the Canadians aren't with US channel there. They're trying to promote their own homegrown industry, but that is for another thread/forum.


Technically, NO. One needs a license to receive the Canadian DBS satellites which I doubt Americans bother to get (DirecTV and DISH obtained blanket licenses on behalf of their users for their use of Canadian and Mexican satellites). There are also questions of fraud ... perhaps theft by deception. But you're right, that is not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is how DirecTV mishandles the reception of OTA ATSC signals by not allowing their customers to receive all of the channels they could if a scan (or even a manual add) feature were available.

The technical limitations have been overcome by other designers ... I hope DirecTV fixes their tuners - for the sake of those missing local channels as well as those wanting to receive OTA broadcast across the international borders.


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## TEN89 (Jun 27, 2003)

peano said:


> Completely false. It is perfectly legal. WNED in Buffalo (PBS) even markets to Canadians to pledge.


 i'm with you on that. i live 2 miles from canada and when been getting there channels foe year. but some one from cal don't know that and thinks he knows more then we do.


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

Once more, with feeling:

Canadian OTA in US: Not illegal. If you live close enough to Canada to pick up a Canadian station, you may watch it all you wish. Further, a specific FCC rule allows cable systems in areas where a Canadian station could reasonabably be picked up via OTA means anyway, to include such stations in their line ups. Neither DBS company ever pushed the matter, but by extension, DBS probably could have, and perhaps still could, include Canadian OTA in its locals packages in places like Detroit and Buffalo. Same rule applies to Mexico, BTW.

The issue being discussed is that certain DirecTV boxes allows one to add in OTA channels not carried in the locals package, but only those which are in a listing from the Tribune company, which do not include Canadian OTA listings.

US OTA in Canada: Also not illegal and generally carried by every cable company and DBS provider nationwide, even in the far north and the Maritimes, which are outside the OTA range of US stations (remember 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border). If you get your TV OTA, fine and dandy. If you use cable or DBS, the CRTC (Canada's version of the FCC) has a rule called "sym-sub" which protects Canadian ADVERTIZERS (not its homegrown industry) by requiring that if a Canadian OTA station and a US OTA station are carrying the same show at the same time, only the Canadian broadcaster's version (with the Canadian ads) will be available.

"Cable" channels in a cross border mode: Different issue. These channels pay for the rights to a program for the country they are based in and cannot be made available in other countries. Remember the Canadian English population is 1/12th that of the USA, so, every thing else being equal, a Canadian cable channel is only paying 1/12th as much to the program producer or sports league or whatever. To offer the channel in the US would be stealing from the copyright owner. Even if channels are the same on both sides of the border, they are different legal entities, with different ads and different rights fees paid for each. Further Canada, unlike the US, tightly regulates "cable" channels, dictating a list of channels that must be carried, no matter the market forces, and requiring permission to start a new one.

Cross-border operation of DBS systems: Illegal, or at least actionable as theft by deception.


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

James Long said:


> The technical limitations have been overcome by other designers ... I hope DirecTV fixes their tuners - for the sake of those missing local channels as well as those wanting to receive OTA broadcast across the international borders.


You're understating this - It's not that everyone else has overcome anything - DirecTV has essentially invented this design flaw! I still haven't found another commercially-available OTA tuner that doesn't allow scanning, even as a convenience feature only.

Really amazing this design flaw has perpetuated this long.


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

> The issue being discussed is that certain DirecTV boxes allows one to add in OTA channels not carried in the locals package, but only those which are in a listing from the Tribune company, which do not include Canadian OTA listings.


I can report that the zap2it.com website does have both the channel listings and full programming guide data for all six of the (currrently analog) Canadian OTA stations receivable in this area. Thus, presuming that the same is true once the digital switch occurs later this year (again, in this area), it will simply be up to DirecTV to choose whether to include these stations and guide data for our AM21s (unless there is a station or guide data capacity issue that we don't currently know about).



> You're understating this - It's not that everyone else has overcome anything - DirecTV has essentially invented this design flaw! I still haven't found another commercially-available OTA tuner that doesn't allow scanning, even as a convenience feature only.
> 
> Really amazing this design flaw has perpetuated this long.


This is definitely a DirecTV-created limitation. I was thinking that the lack of station scanning might be a technical limitation based on how the guide data is downloaded and used. For example, if the AM21 had station scanning, the DirecTV main system might have to know what stations were detected and stored into memory by every given AM21, in order to properly provide matching guide data for those stations only. For those AM21s not connected to a phone line or the internet, I don't think there would be any way for the AM21s to communicate information about stations received from scanning back to DirecTV.

The way I suspect the guide data is downloaded to the AM21s is that the guide data for all regions of the country must be continuously downloaded from the satellite(s) all the time. When a given AM21 is programmed for one or two zip codes, then that particular AM21 can choose to receive any available guide data from the incoming stream of data from the satellite(s) that match its zip code entries, while simply ignoring all other (non-matching) zip code guide data.

For this reason, I was thinking that a better way to program channels into the AM21s would be to have the user input only their zip code, plus a user-selectable 50/100/150-mile radius from their zip code for channels to be entered into their on-screen guide. Then, the user can simply delete those stations from the resulting list that they don't receive with their antenna. In this scenario, the AM21 would always download station and guide data for stations within 150 miles of the inputted zip code, but the AM21 would simply filter out, or choose to ignore, data for stations not selected by the user as being received. This, of course, would presume that the AM21 has enough capacity for that significantly greater number of stations and significantly greater amount of guide data. This would tend to solve the related limitation of the AM21 having only two zip codes (limiting reception to two cities/markets), while some people (including me) receive stations from more than two cities/markets via antenna.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Getting back on track ....

This thread is about how DirecTV is failing it's customers by not allowing the tuning of non-listed OTA channels (including cross border channels). Not the channel lineups of cable and satellite companies.

VOS made an error. He admitted it more than once. Lets move on.

:backtotop


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

gcd0865 said:


> The way I suspect the guide data is downloaded to the AM21s is that the guide data for all regions of the country must be continuously downloaded from the satellite(s) all the time. When a given AM21 is programmed for one or two zip codes, then that particular AM21 can choose to receive any available guide data from the incoming stream of data from the satellite(s) that match its zip code entries, while simply ignoring all other (non-matching) zip code guide data.


It would be good to know how DirecTV sends and, more importantly, matches up the data.

Say I have an ATSC tuner ... it is receiving a signal on RF channel 27. How does that receiver know what station it is receiving? It could use the virtual channel numbers to make a match. RF 27 with virtual 25.1 is WCWW South Bend, RF 27 with virtual 26.1 is WCIU Chicago. But it is likely that there are other RF 27 virtual 25 and RF 27 and virtual 26 matches in the country. Some other matching is needed.

Every OTA station has a TSID (transport stream ID) that is unique. WCIU uses Transport Stream ID: 1011 (0x03f3) ... WCWW uses Transport Stream ID: 3477 (0x0d95). Unique identifiers that should identify ONE station. One doesn't even need to know the RF and virtual channel numbers to match a received TSID and subchannel with the right data. This type of matching would also work for translators and other systems where the RF channel might be different - as long as the TSID stays intact.

It is possible that DirecTV is using some sort of RF matching. Evidence of this would be problems when a station changes channels (such as WLS 7 in Chicago moving to RF 44). Perhaps they are using their own tables of zip codes to determine what RF channels are available in an area and what they should match up to - instead of the more unique TSID.

It would not be difficult to use the TSID for matching ... and allow the receivers to display channels that didn't have a TSID match. Perhaps DirecTV is doing a TSID match and is simply narrowing down the thousands of channels broadcast in the US by zip code to prevent overwhelming their tuners. Such a zipcode filter is unneeded. Just collect a list of the TSIDs scanned and use them to filter for the guide info needed (just like a packet filter would pick up desired broadcast packets and ignore others).

Providing accurate guide data isn't trivial ... but they should not be restricting reception of channels simply because they are not on an arbitrary list of "approved" stations for a zip code. They should at least allow tuning of any ATSC signal received.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

DirecTV both with their HR20 & AM-21 work solely off a database from the zipcode(s) you enter during setup.
Having just gone through the AM-21 setup a couple of times since yesterday, this is all driven by a database and has nothing to do with what the OTA tuner actually could receive. I also rescanned channels with my TV today, which does use the TSID, so I have different channels listed as an option between the TV and the DirecTV receivers.

It's been a long time since I had a H20 active, but "I think" it scanned like my DirecTV Sony HD SAT 200 did.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

gcd0865 said:


> The way I suspect the guide data is downloaded to the AM21s is that the guide data for all regions of the country must be continuously downloaded from the satellite(s) all the time.


If you watch the AM-21 during setup:
The SAT feed has the channels by zipcode, as you wait "forever" for it to do this after entering in the zipcode. The second zipcode came almost instantaneously, so this data had to have come in the first request.
Guide data was a second long wait.


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## dorfd1 (Jul 16, 2008)

yes the H20 does alow for channel scanning. it is just channel scanning has not been enabled on the hd dvr's yet.


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## Rob77 (Sep 24, 2007)

dorfd1 said:


> yes the H20 does alow for channel scanning. it is just channel scanning has not been enabled on the hd dvr's yet.


Why


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

If scanning hasn't been enabled 4-1/2 years after the HR20 was introduced, I doubt if it is forthcoming.


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## aa9vi (Sep 4, 2007)

bobnielsen said:


> If scanning hasn't been enabled 4-1/2 years after the HR20 was introduced, I doubt if it is forthcoming.


The HR20 could not scan. The H20 could. All we are suggesting (and have been suggesting for 4 years now) is that the AM21 do just what the H20 did in terms of OTA scanning. We'd stop whining, complaining, sending emails, calling D*, calling our local stations, getting P.O.'d, if it just did that. The DirecTV OTA database is NOT the same as the Tribune Media/Zap2it database. If it was, we'd complain less. If you can't sync OTA with Tribune info for the guide simply put "Program information unavailable." Simple.

The least thing D* could do is synchronize with Tribune on the OTA channel listing every couple of weeks. Ideally, they'd adopt what the H20 did so we can scan for channel not in the Tribune database. Instead we get fed some garbage about enabling all of the market's subchannels slow down the receiver guide. Well, some of those useless apps slow the receiver down much more. Let's be honest here. Why is it some days I press 3 6 0 and have to wait 10 seconds between it appearing on the screen and some days it comes right up? it's not any change in OTA listings, it is a coding issue with the firmware. Again, let's be honest.

D* EMPLOYEES OR REPS, PLEASE COMMUNICATE THIS TO YOUR MANAGEMENT. Please listen to your customers on this issue. Thank you.


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## chdoud (Jan 15, 2008)

I am another frustrated OTA user. I live in WI but in the Marquette, MI DMA. So all Directv locals are MI based. Since I live in WI I support WI public TV, but can not receive it through my AM21 because the WI station is a low power retransmission and guide data is not provided by D*. I had it for several months when I worked with the WI PBS and Zap2iT BUT d* decided they did not want to support it. Recently the WI Wasau ABC network affliate has added another retransmission site but I can not receive it through my AM21, again because it is not a full power station.

Why would I want the WI station???? I really don't care to watch MI football, basketball that the MI DMA provides. Further, I am stuck with Detroit Lions NFL. So I have Sunday ticket so I can watch the Packers.......

And the best part is I live 2 miles from being in the Green Bay DMA where I could receive the Green Bay stations....

The only furtunate thing is I have been a D* customer for 14 years and have been grandfathered with the DNS. So I have more of a choice than other D* customers in the area.


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## adkinsjm (Mar 25, 2003)

DirecTV won't change its policy on AM21 guide data until enough customers complain. As for the locals issues, start organizing in your community. That will pressure lawmakers on the DMA issue.


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## aa9vi (Sep 4, 2007)

Let's look at the competition: Dish. Do they have such restrictions on their OTA receiver? No. That puts DirecTV at a competitive disadvantage. For that reason alone, they should update this poor design.

http://www.dishnetwork.com/SupportSection/Setup-OTA-Module

See the word "SCAN?"

Should we start an AM-22 wish list:
1) Over the air scan ability
2) Bi-Weekly or even monthly synchronizations with Tribune media for new channels
3) compatible with HR2x receivers, compatible with H2x receivers
4) similar length and depth as new H25 so it fits right on top
5) use latest generation tuner and buffering algorithms for rock solid signal
6) only display weak signal banner after signal has gone black, not just pixelizing a little.
7) price: $75 or less
8) color: black

any other suggestions?


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

9) ability to receive different stations that share the same REAL channel number as well as different stations sharing the same VIRTUAL channel number.

As a matter of explanation, when I rotate my antenna, I receive two different stations that share 5.1 as the VIRTUAL channel number, but have different REAL channel numbers (15.1 and 22.1). My tv's tuner is able to save both of these into memory as two different 5.1's, one listed right below the other.

However, I also have two other stations in opposite directions, one being real 28.1/virtual 28.1, the other being real 28.1/virtual 43.1. There is no way for my tv's tuner to receive both stations and store them both into memory, as the tuner's chipset is only able to recognize one station for a given REAL channel number. In order to receive the other station, I'd have to wipe the memory clean and either rescan or manually enter the real channel number.

10) ability to receive all digital over-the-air stations and guide data for same, including including the low-powered ones, translators and Canadian/Mexican stations (when they go digital) that are not currently being included (which currently cause considerable complaints).

11) if guide data memory is indeed a limitation, enough additional memory for the new AM-22 to store guide data for many more stations.


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## dettxw (Nov 21, 2007)

FWIW, the new HR34 with an AM21 will scan for channels rather than using the guide data for tuning. There is no editing function but you *should* detect Canadian channels with this combo if you're in-range. 
I'd try it if I were back in Michigan. 

I have not heard if DirecTV is planning on adding this capability to the other DVRs, and there is no guarantee that it will stay in the HR34 code either.


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## TEN89 (Jun 27, 2003)

dettxw said:


> FWIW, the new HR34 with an AM21 will scan for channels rather than using the guide data for tuning. There is no editing function but you *should* detect Canadian channels with this combo if you're in-range.
> I'd try it if I were back in Michigan.
> 
> I have not heard if DirecTV is planning on adding this capability to the other DVRs, and there is no guarantee that it will stay in the HR34 code either.


 Thats not true. I live about 3 miles from Canada and i can't get them using the AM21.


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## dettxw (Nov 21, 2007)

TEN89 said:


> Thats not true. I live about 3 miles from Canada and i can't get them using the AM21.


So what equipment are you using?
The DVR scanning function is a recent development with the HR34/AM21-only combo. 
Are you using the secondary zip trick to get Canadian stations now?


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## tigerwillow1 (Jan 26, 2009)

> I believe some people have experimented with using a different US market that has one or more digital stations on the same channels as neighboring Canadian stations, and been able to "trick" the DirecTV receiver into getting the particular channel.


I've been doing this to pick up a local station not in the guide. It's a pretty user-unfriendly process. First you have to find a station that uses the same virtual and RF channel number as the one you want to access, which takes a bunch of digging to find. For the station I wanted to access there were only 2 others in the whole country with the same virtual/RF channel pair. When you add the correct zip code for your second DMA, you can access the station you're after. The chance of the DMA you select having a channel match for another station you want to access is about zero, so this trick is good to pick up one station only. Recording a show on the "new" channel is also a pain because the time slots in the guide won't ever match up with the show you want to record (application of Murphy's law). For a one-hour show I watched every week I had to record two one-hour shows. When playing the first show I had to skip 30 minutes forward. Then at the worst time in the middle of the show you get the "do you want to delete....." message and panic until you realize you have to start up the 2nd recorded show. OTA channel scanning would sure be a lot nicer!


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## FUCCO (Oct 6, 2007)

i have been in the same boat for years living in buffalo ny. However i have a cheat sheet you can edit and it works wonders!!!! you can edit each collum and find what you need


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## JJJBBB (May 26, 2007)

Great, I get a lot of stations from Toronto Canada.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

dettxw said:


> So what equipment are you using?
> The DVR scanning function is a recent development with the HR34/AM21-only combo.
> Are you using the secondary zip trick to get Canadian stations now?


Are you using an AM21 or AM21N?

I have 2 HR34's. One has an AM21 attached to it while the other has an AM21N and the only one I have ever got to scan was the AM21N


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

Here in metro Detroit, we receive four new neighboring Canadian digital HD stations over the air:

CBET 9.1/9.1 (CBC) Windsor, ON
CHWI 16.1/16.1 (CTV2) Wheatley, ON
CIII 22.1/22.1 (Global) Stevenson, ON
CICO 32.1/32.1 (TVOntario) Windsor, ON

I just learned about this AM21 zip code trick; we can use a Traverse City, MI zip code here to receive two of these four Canadian stations, from overlap with these stations:

WWTV 9.1/9.1 (CBS)
WFQX 32.1/32.1 (FOX) (used to be 32.1/33.1)

My AM21N (with HR24) can now tune CBET-9 and CICO-32 using this trick. Of course, the on-screen station and guide listings are for the Traverse City stations (making guided recordings impossible), but at least these two stations can be tuned and recorded manually.

Checking out the very helpful spreadsheet, a Savannah, GA zip code would receive 9.1/9.1 and 22.1/22.1, while also providing significantly-viewed WCMZ 28.1/28.1 from Flint, MI. Found four 16.1/16.1's as well, in Greenville, SC, Fargo, ND, Lubbock, TX and La Grande, OR. But no combination of two zip codes would seem to provide all four Canadian stations here.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> While nobody is going to knock on your door and give you a ticket, receiving Canadian channels in the US and US channels in Canada, is against the laws.
> Having either the HR20 or the AM21 scan for channels has always been seen as "a good idea", but the guide data for US customers will be limited to US channels.


It's not against the law. Heck - Buffalo cable TV shows Canadian TV stations, and has for years.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

gcd0865 said:


> Here in metro Detroit, we receive four new neighboring Canadian digital HD stations over the air:
> 
> CBET 9.1/9.1 (CBC) Windsor, ON
> CHWI 16.1/16.1 (CTV2) Wheatley, ON
> ...


Try a Las Vegas ZIP Code. 5.1 is RF 9, 15.1 is RF 16, 21.1 is RF 22, and 34.1 is RF 32. I am not sure if they are all in the database when you use the AM21.


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## am3211 (Mar 23, 2008)

fluffybear said:


> Are you using an AM21 or AM21N?
> 
> I have 2 HR34's. One has an AM21 attached to it while the other has an AM21N and the only one I have ever got to scan was the AM21N


Apparently this is a feature of the HR34 but only in combination with the AM21N. How can that be if the AM21 and the AM21N are the same electronically?


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

David:

Thanks for the Las Vegas zip code suggestion for my AM21N (with HR24) here in metro Detroit. Noticed a few unusual entries for the Las Vegas stations (presumably DirecTV errors):

- 9-1 KVVUDT seems like it should be 5-1, since KVVUDT2 is 5-2 (and 5 is its Virtual number)
- 2-1 KLASDT seems like it should be 8-1, since KLASDT2 is 8-2 (and 8 is its Virtual number)
- 7-1 KEGSDT is apparently programmed to its old analog number, even though it's apparently KEGS-LP on Real 24.1/Virtual 30.1
- 16-1 KINCDT seems like it should be 15-1, since KINCDT2 is 15-2 (and 15 is its Virtual number)
- 32-1 KMCCDT seems like it should be 34-1, since 34 is its Virtual number

Using the Las Vegas zip code now "tricks" my AM21N into tuning 3 neighboring Canadian stations plus a few more:

- Tuning to 2-1 KLASDT (presumably R7.1/V8.1) receives WJBK R7.1/V2.1 (FOX) Detroit
- Tuning to 7-1 KEGSDT (maybe R24.1/V7.1 or 30.1) receives WXYZ R41.1/V7.1 (ABC) Detroit [don't know why]
- Tuning to 9-1 KVVUDT (presumably R9.1/V5.1) receives CBET R9.1/V9.1 (CBC) Windsor, Ontario
- Tuning to 16-1 KINCDT (presumably R16.1/V15.1) receives CHWI R16.1/V16.1 (CTV2) Windsor, Ontario
- Tuning to 32-1 KMCCDT (presumably R32.1/V32.1 or 34.1) receives CICO R32.1/V32.1 (TVOntario) Windsor, Ontario

Apparently, the Real channel number controls, since this trick receives at least two stations with matching Real numbers but different Virtual numbers. Except I don't know why tuning to 7-1 KEGSDT receives WXYZ R41.1/V7.1. Maybe the AM21N detects the matching Virtual channel numbers and receives the station even though the Real channel numbers are different.

Learned a new quirk of the AM21N (at least with the HR24): when the AM21N is tuned to a station's Virtual channel number (from the zip code-produced station listing) that corresponds to a certain Real channel number, and the AM21N "sees" a signal for a different station on that same Real channel number, the AM21N's signal meter will show the strength of the signal received, but only a black screen is displayed on the tv (somehow, the AM21N is programmed to "black out" that signal).

Some examples:

- Tuning to 16-1 KINCDT (R16.1/V15.1) shows 45% signal strength but a black screen, yet tuning to 66-1 WSMH (R16.1/V66.1) receives WSMH at the exact same signal strength (and shows the picture) [same for 16-2; antenna in the opposite direction as for CHWI] 
- Tuning to 21-1 KVMYDT (R22.1/V21.1) shows 50% signal strength but a black screen, yet tuning to 5-1 WNEM (R22.1/V5.1) receives WNEM at the exact same signal strength (and shows the picture) [same for 21-2]
- Tuning to 14-1 WCMUDT (R26.1/V14.1, which is beyond receivable range for me) shows 58% signal strength but a black screen; it is detecting WHNE-LD R26.1/V26.1, which my tv's tuner receives at roughly the same signal strength (and shows the picture) [same for 14-2 and 14-3]

Other quirks (can't explain these):

- Tuning to 5-2 KVVUDT2 (presumably R9.2/V5.2) shows a black screen (85% signal strength; same as for CBET 9.1, but CBET has no R9.2/V9.2 subchannel)
- Tuning to 8-2 KLASDT2 (presumably R7.2/V8.2) shows a black screen (85% signal strength; same as for WJBK 2.1, but WJBK has no R7.2/V2.2 subchannel)


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## ejbvt (Aug 14, 2011)

Why have Canadaian TV? Three reasons:
1. Hockey Night in Canada (I don't want to hear that it's on NHL Network... it's smushed to fit that obnoxious ticker.)
2. The Red Green Show (I don't want to hear that it's on PBS, not every PBS carries it.)
3. Curling.
4. CBC News.


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## charlie460 (Sep 12, 2009)

ejbvt said:


> Why have Canadaian TV? Three reasons:
> *1. Hockey Night in Canada (I don't want to hear that it's on NHL Network... it's smushed to fit that obnoxious ticker.)*
> 2. The Red Green Show (I don't want to hear that it's on PBS, not every PBS carries it.)
> 3. Curling.
> 4. CBC News.


:yesman:


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

All true. In my area, we now receive four nearby Canadian networks in digital HD over the air (CBC, Global, TVOntario and CTV2) with a fifth (CTV) set to go digital HD by the end of this year. As I've posted previously in other threads, it's difficult to sell friends on DirecTV without CBC at a minimum, since most area cable companies carry at least two of the Canadian stations on their regular lineup.

I'm not entirely sure of NHL Network's coverage of CBC's Hockey Night in Canada, but I think it's only a portion of CBC's overall hockey coverage. Another thing that many here seem to prefer is CBC's Olympics coverage every two years relative to NBC's (more live events, less fluff).

In any event, at least the AM21 tuning "trick" allows us to now receive these stations.


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## ckobmc (Mar 18, 2012)

I have been using AM21 with the zips 12903 and 96813. A few months ago CityTV stoped working. Did anyone experience the same thing? The singal is 100% from my location but no picture (searching for signal message only). Did the frequency of the source zip code change? Is there a way to fix this? Are there other zip codes I should be using?


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## bosco10021 (Apr 17, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> While nobody is going to knock on your door and give you a ticket, receiving Canadian channels in the US and US channels in Canada, is against the laws.
> Having either the HR20 or the AM21 scan for channels has always been seen as "a good idea", but the guide data for US customers will be limited to US channels.


Oh really then how are on Buffalo cable systems ?


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## Relativity (May 28, 2011)

ckobmc said:


> I have been using AM21 with the zips 12903 and 96813. A few months ago CityTV stoped working. Did anyone experience the same thing? The singal is 100% from my location but no picture (searching for signal message only). Did the frequency of the source zip code change? Is there a way to fix this? Are there other zip codes I should be using?


if you look at the spreadsheet, you'll find that zip code 96813 (HI) doesn't have the channel 57.1 (Citytv in Toronto). Maybe it did before, but not now. You need to find a zip that has 57.1 listed and all the other channels available to you from Western New York. Why not try a secondary zip from Manhattan, New York (10039) ? that should get you 57.1,5-1,9-1,41-1,47-1,25-1 (you'll need a good antenna to get all those channels depending where you live)


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## ckobmc (Mar 18, 2012)

I tried 10039 and 57.1 did work. Thanks.

Can you lead me to the spreadsheet with the channels?


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## trainman (Jan 9, 2008)

bosco10021 said:


> Oh really then how are on Buffalo cable systems ?


First of all, you're replying to an old message -- I believe it was already pointed out in this thread that *veryoldschool* was incorrect; it's perfectly legal to receive and watch Canadian over-the-air channels in the U.S. Cable systems in the U.S. are allowed to retransmit Canadian OTA channels because what they do is seen as merely an extension of OTA reception (going back to the days when cable was "community antenna television").

However, DirecTV isn't allowed to retransmit Canadian OTA channels because there's no provision for it in the law that allows DirecTV's "local-into-local" service, which is seen as different from how cable systems distribute over-the-air channels and therefore has a different legal status.

(The laws are different in Canada, where their DBS providers can and do retransmit over-the-air channels from the U.S.)


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## ckobmc (Mar 18, 2012)

I am still having a little trouble. When I combine (to get some other wanted channels) zip 10039 with another zip 90017 channel 57.1 stops working again. 

My channel wish list is as follows 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 17.1, 23.1, 29.1, 41.1, 57.1. 

Any suggestions on a zip combo that would work?


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

ckobmc:

Try running several iterations of the reset/initial setup sequence for your AM21. Whenever I've been trying to enter in new zip codes, I frequently end up with artifacts from the previously-entered zip codes in the listing, some stations are missing the first or even second time around, and your "Favorite" channel listing might need to be cleared or unselected also (was thinking that having some of a previous zip code's stations selected as Favorites when replacing that zip code with another might interfere with a new zip code entry, but not entirely sure about that).

Are all of these stations [2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 17.1, 23.1, 29.1, 41.1, 57.1] from the Toronto area? If you can provide both the Real and Virtual channel numbers for all OTA stations of interest, perhaps we can help you find two good zip codes covering most or all of your stations. My recent testing with a Las Vegas zip code found that it mostly read off of the Real channel numbers, but there were a few anomalies in there as well.


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## ckobmc (Mar 18, 2012)

gcd0865:

The Toronto channels are 5.1, 9.1, 17.1, 23.1, 41.1, 57.1. The balance are the channels from Buffalo for the big networks.

I could live without the 17.1 and 23.1 if I had to. I definately need the rest.


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## skatingrocker17 (Jun 24, 2010)

gcd0865 (or anyone) I'm curious to whether or not that the AM21 will let you add only stations in your area or any station that's in DirecTVs database. DirecTV doesn't even offer us the local CW station...

Do the Toledo locals show up too?

I will say this is really one advantage of having cable, I know many cable stations near the border will give you neighboring Canadian cities OTA channels even though you are technically outside of the market. When I had Time Warner Cable they gave us CBC Windsor which they later took away for some reason.

Buckeye Cable in Toledo still does offer it as well as both the Toledo and Detroit locals.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

You can use any 2 zip codes you want for the antenna setup. BUt you have to be able to receive them via antenna.


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## ckobmc (Mar 18, 2012)

gcd0865:

I found a DTV channel spreadsheet.

I found a great GOV web site that showed which DT stations were availble by zip code. 

I took your advice reset my AM21 to clean it up. Then I did the initial antenna set up with the 2 appropriate zips. Now, it's happy times.

Thank you for the advice.


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

ckobmc:

So did you use a Buffalo-area zip code as one of your two AM21 zip code entries to receive all the Buffalo stations over the air, or are you just receiving the Buffalo stations via satellite and using a combination of two AM21 zip code entries in an attempt to receive Toronto-area stations? I'm assuming that entry of a Buffalo-area zip code will not provide Toronto stations in an AM21 over-the-air station listing. Just wondering whether you've now found a satisfactory zip code combination for your Toronto stations, or whether you're still searching for that.

skatingrocker17:

You can enter any combination of two zip codes into an AM21 (even if one or both are not anywhere near you). As a result, the AM21 will display all over-the-air stations located in the DMAs/markets for those zip codes that have been entered by DirecTV into its station database. Oftentimes, unfortunately, DirecTV's station database is either not up to date or is missing some subchannels or low-powered/specialty/religious stations. But for the most part, it does display most major stations. The major Toledo locals should show up in the AM21's station listing, but not CW because it is cable-only and has no over-the-air signal (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WT05). The newer AM21N, when paired with the new HR34 main receiver, also adds over-the-air scanning capability to the two zip code entries, but programming data is said to be absent for stations that are added through the scanning feature.


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## ckobmc (Mar 18, 2012)

gcd08965:
Yes, I am using a Buffalo zip and an LA zip in the AM21 to get the desired Toronto DT channels and US DT network channels. It took a lot of experimenting but I found a suitable secondary zip that gave me all my desired channels. 

My next project is working on VOD. It was a very slow download at first and now it doesn't download at all. I am running a wireless setup with the Linksys gaming adaptor and an apple router. Do you know of a forum string I should go to for help?


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

For VOD, I do know that when I moved my internet router/gateway right next to my audio/video cabinet and hardwired via ethernet cable to that, everything improved over trying it wirelessly. Otherwise, don't know of any specific forums for that, maybe something in the digitalhome.ca, avsforum.com or highdefforum.com forums?


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