# HOA Restricting Dish



## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Hi guys, have a question for you. I've had Dish for about 7-8 months here. I am renting a condo.

My landord just informed me that the HOA is evidentially "enforcing" the "no satellite dishes rule" in the HOA documents.

I have the dish placed on my back patio on a tripod (set, not drilled down); it is completely on my patio (doesn't stick out) and in fact, is very hard to see from the road unless you were looking for it.

Based on the FCC factsheet, this restriction by the HOA is clearly prohibited.

My question is what position am I in to do anything about it?

Thanks everyone for your time!


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

Show the HOA the FCC factsheet.


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

Show them the FCC factsheet and forget it.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

You need to show them the FCC documents. HOA's cannot prohibit the installation of satellite dishes. See http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/consumerdish.html.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

And heres' the link -

As for your position - so long as you haven't damaged the landlords property, and you are NOT using common property (i.e. your dishes are entirely on your exclusive use property) - they can't do squat.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

I was the president of our HOA for a couple of years. Best advice? Find the president of yours and have a chat with them to find out what the issue really is. Face to face conversations are a good thing.

Good luck!

John


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Print this out and give it to them. They haven't a leg to stand on. Your landlord probably has no clue, and is just passing along what he was told, but you or he needs to give this, with appropriate sections highlighted, to the HOA. They may not "agree" at first, but they'll give it to their lawyer, who will read it, do some checking, and then come back to the HOA with the "bad news" that they have no legal right to restrict your dish.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

As somebody that had to fight a HOA, about an OTA antenna. Print out or email the link that has been given to you. Talking to a Board can be a hassle, but it can help. Lots of busy bodies on HOA boards, that want a clean and uniform look, forgetting we aren't cookie cutter society. I have a nicely yet firmly worded email, that you can use, to help get the point across.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

GrumpyBear said:


> As somebody that had to fight a HOA, about an OTA antenna. Print out or email the link that has been given to you. Talking to a Board can be a hassle, but it can help. Lots of busy bodies on HOA boards, that want a clean and uniform look, forgetting we aren't cookie cutter society. I have a nicely yet firmly worded email, that you can use, to help get the point across.


Thanks everyone for the advice. GrumpyBear, if you could PM that to me it would be fantastic.

I have a feeling passing the fact sheet on to the FCC will just result in them ignoring it, and wanting to fine the landlord if we don't remove the Dish. I'm not sure he wants the hassle, so I'm just looking for the most effective way to get the HOA to get the point and drop it.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

JM Anthony said:


> I was the president of our HOA for a couple of years. Best advice? Find the president of yours and have a chat with them to find out what the issue really is. Face to face conversations are a good thing.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> John


I used to do just that when the President of our HOA lived across the street from me... but he moved recently... and the HOA sent out letters telling us to not show up at people's houses to ask them questions.


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## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I used to do just that when the President of our HOA lived across the street from me... but he moved recently... and the HOA sent out letters telling us to not show up at people's houses to ask them questions.


That is ridiculous. The members of the HOA are there to represent the home owners. If you can't talk to them, how can they represent you? 

I don't have these problems. There are only eight units in our HOA and all owners are members. Most units have a sattelite dish.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

LilGator said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice. GrumpyBear, if you could PM that to me it would be fantastic.
> 
> I have a feeling passing the fact sheet on to the FCC will just result in them ignoring it, and wanting to fine the landlord if we don't remove the Dish. I'm not sure he wants the hassle, so I'm just looking for the most effective way to get the HOA to get the point and drop it.


Just sent you a PM. Feel free to modify the message anyway you want to.


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## jtbell (Nov 24, 2008)

Depending on the age of your subdivision, and thereby the age of your Covenants and Restrictions, those restrictions may have been written about the dishes that were huge in comparison to today's dishes. 

We amended our Covenants and Restrictions in my area to allow the use of the newer dishes, as long as they are placed on the side or back of the house. The bottom line is that you are in the right legally, but it may take some work to get the POA to understand that. I would guess that there are many other residences in your area that have dishes.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

GrumpyBear said:


> Just sent you a PM. Feel free to modify the message anyway you want to.


Thanks GrumpyBear, just sent off an email to my landlord with info, and asked for the HOA President's contact info.

If I owned the condo, I'd send the FCC fact sheet over to the HOA and just ignore their complaints/requests. Renting from this guy, I don't want to cause trouble between him and the HOA...


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

jtbell said:


> Depending on the age of your subdivision, and thereby the age of your Covenants and Restrictions, those restrictions may have been written about the dishes that were huge in comparison to today's dishes.
> 
> We amended our Covenants and Restrictions in my area to allow the use of the newer dishes, as long as they are placed on the side or back of the house. The bottom line is that you are in the right legally, but it may take some work to get the POA to understand that. I would guess that there are many other residences in your area that have dishes.


It's actually an old hotel that was gutted and condo's were built- so the HOA is no more than a few years old!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

bnborg said:


> That is ridiculous. The members of the HOA are there to represent the home owners. If you can't talk to them, how can they represent you?


Not to derail the OP's thread any further than I already did... but yeah, it is ridiculous... but they want everything in writing to the board. They do have an email and a phone, but when I emailed I never got a reply, and one time the phone was disconnected :eek2:

Meanwhile... I saw the covenants before I moved in and then the covenants that I actually got when I moved in. Originally they had tried to ban satellite dishes & antennas! But someone figured that out + Time Warner had not buried cable! So very quickly the HOA changed and re-filed to include not only support/recognition of the right to sat dishes but also said no pre-approval process was required.

Of course about a year later, the HOA sent out letters to everyone with a Dish demanding we file for approval... at which point I (and I assume others) contacted them and asked them to actually read the covenants, specifically the part that allowed the dishes per the FCC requiring them to do so.

Never had a problem after that... but I knew then that if the covenants hadn't been re-written a couple of years earlier that I'd have had a fight on my hands.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

jtbell said:


> We amended our Covenants and Restrictions in my area to allow the use of the newer dishes, as long as they are placed on the side or back of the house.


Just so you understand, your "authorization" is really just a request.

You can't stop someone from putting a dish anywhere on their property if that's the only place to get signal from, or if putting it where you want it would cost the tenant any extra money.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

BattleZone said:


> Just so you understand, your "authorization" is really just a request.
> 
> You can't stop someone from putting a dish anywhere on their property if that's the only place to get signal from, or if putting it where you want it would cost the tenant any extra money.


This is my Favorite Section

Q: What types of restrictions are prohibited?

A: The rule prohibits restrictions that impair a person's ability to install, maintain, or use an antenna covered by the rule. The rule applies to state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules, condominium or cooperative association restrictions, lease restrictions, or similar restrictions on property within the exclusive use or control of the antenna user where the user has an ownership or leasehold interest in the property. A restriction impairs if it: (1) unreasonably delays or prevents use of; (2) unreasonably increases the cost of; or (3) precludes a person from receiving or transmitting an acceptable quality signal from an antenna covered under the rule. The rule does not prohibit legitimate safety restrictions or restrictions designed to preserve designated or eligible historic or prehistoric properties, provided the restriction is no more burdensome than necessary to accomplish the safety or preservation purpose.

Nothing better than telling a Board that they have a CCR, that has an invalid and totally unenforceable rule in it. Except for Safety purpose's and HOA can not tell anybody were they can put thier Dish or OTA.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Well, landlord's on my side so he's taking it from here. Just a matter of getting the "old farts" to realize they did this wrong and are out of bounds, in his words.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

LilGator said:


> Well, landlord's on my side so he's taking it from here. Just a matter of getting the "old farts" to realize they did this wrong and are out of bounds, in his words.


Good, I bet you will get it straightened out now


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

LilGator said:


> Well, landlord's on my side so he's taking it from here. Just a matter of getting the "old farts" to realize they did this wrong and are out of bounds, in his words.


"Old Farts" is a nice way of saying, "The holier than thou's, bullies, that didn't think anybody would challenge them"


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

LilGator said:


> Well, landlord's on my side so he's taking it from here. Just a matter of getting the "old farts" to realize they did this wrong and are out of bounds, in his words.


Strangely... it should be "young" farts causing all the problems with antenna installations... since technically "old" farts should be more familiar with needing antennas to watch anything


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Strangely... it should be "young" farts causing all the problems with antenna installations... since technically "old" farts should be more familiar with needing antennas to watch anything


I will stick with Old Farts. In my HOA, the younger people see the SAT dish as a better TV over old fashion cable. The old Farts, what a clean, uniform look. They hate the change, and just try to explain how you can record OTA as well as via SAT. Younger folks understand, the tech and advantage more(lots of OTA's have popped up since my problem), older folks(NOT ALL) here, look at you like your are nutz, when you tell them you can record 4 stations at the sametime.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

So my landlord had a conversation with the HOA and we're both pretty much speechless at their response.

They know about the FCC's regulation, and are maintaining the "no satellite dishes" rule. They simply don't care.

He talked to his attorney who said all we could do is hire him, obviously take them to court and win. But who has $5K to drop on that? The HOA knows this, and that's probably why I'm the only person with a satellite dish here.

Alternatives are Charter cable and it's whopping ~40 HD channels, or AT&T U-verse and it's legendary PQ.

Leave the dish up and inevitably they come down on the owner of the condo (my landlord) removing his right to lease here, leaving me without a lease to live there.

WTF are my options now?


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Leave your dish where it is and make them make the first move.

You won't need an attourney to beat them in any court, just plop down the FCC OTARD Rules and checkmate.

You might also consider getting the news media into this, they love these kind of human interest stories and bad publicity for the HOA might get some other owners off their duffs.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

LilGator said:


> So my landlord had a conversation with the HOA and we're both pretty much speechless at their response.
> 
> They know about the FCC's regulation, and are maintaining the "no satellite dishes" rule. They simply don't care.
> 
> ...


Pretend you and your landlord are willing to risk some money to get some money.

In a carefully worded letter, tell the HOA to sue if they want to lose, plus end up spending a considerable sum on both side's attorney fees, plus a considerable sum from an emotional stress damage award resulting from a cross-filing accusing them of engaging in harassment in a manner knowingly in violation of federal law.

Sometimes you only have to bully the bullies.


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## olguy (Jan 9, 2006)

You can also file a petition with the FCC. May take a long time to get results from the FCC but it might shake up the HOA.

And as a 72 year old who had one of the first sat dishes in my area I take offense at the use of "Old Farts" to describe the idiots. In fact, all the board members of my HOA are many years younger than me. Some younger than my kids. I know phrelin ain't as old as me so it probably didn't bother him :lol: Didn't really bother me but just thought I'd say something anyway.

Back on topic: From the FCC's How to File a Petition page:



> Finally, if a person files a petition or lawsuit challenging a local government's ordinance, an association's restriction, or a landlord's lease, the person must serve the local government, association or landlord, as appropriate. You must include a "proof of service" with your petition. Generally, the "proof of service" is a statement indicating that on the same day that your petition was sent to the Commission, you provided a copy of your petition (and any attachments) to the person or entity that is seeking to enforce the antenna restriction. The proof of service should give the name and address of the parties served, the date served, and the method of service used (_e.g._, regular mail, personal service, certified mail).


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

olguy said:


> You can also file a petition with the FCC. May take a long time to get results from the FCC but it might shake up the HOA.


Doesn't the filing of the petition also stop the HOA from enforcing the rule until the FCC makes a determination?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

olguy said:


> You can also file a petition with the FCC. May take a long time to get results from the FCC but it might shake up the HOA.
> 
> And as a 72 year old who had one of the first sat dishes in my area I take offense at the use of "Old Farts" to describe the idiots. In fact, all the board members of my HOA are many years younger than me. Some younger than my kids. I know phrelin ain't as old as me so it probably didn't bother him :lol: Didn't really bother me but just thought I'd say something anyway.
> 
> Back on topic: From the FCC's How to File a Petition page:


Cool link. The relevant language is clear:


> There is no special form for a petition. You may simply describe the facts, including the specific restriction(s) that you wish to challenge. If possible, include contact information such as telephone numbers for all parties involved, if available, and attach a copy of the restriction(s) and any relevant correspondence. If this is not possible, be sure to include the exact language of the restriction in question with the petition. General or hypothetical questions about the application or interpretation of the rule cannot be accepted as petitions.
> 
> Finally, if a person files a petition or lawsuit challenging a local government's ordinance, an association's restriction, or a landlord's lease, the person must serve the local government, association or landlord, as appropriate. You must include a "proof of service" with your petition. Generally, the "proof of service" is a statement indicating that on the same day that your petition was sent to the Commission, you provided a copy of your petition (and any attachments) to the person or entity that is seeking to enforce the antenna restriction. The proof of service should give the name and address of the parties served, the date served, and the method of service used (e.g., regular mail, personal service, certified mail).
> 
> ...


I'd file a petition and send the letter I suggested above. Nothing wrong with letting them know they are in the wrong and you're not going to take it any more.

Regarding the "old farts" thing, olguy, I had my prostate removed a week ago so right now I'm feeling as old as dirt. But your right, I ignored the remark.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Not only is the FCC petition a GREAT thing to do, but this is a great time to inform the board that laws of incorporation don't protect them from being sued, in civil court.
In Civil Court no attorneys needed, and the Individual board Members, would each be held personally, and financially responsible, for taking willful action to violate Federal and or State laws. 
You have very kindly informed them of the Federal laws covering this, if they take any action to remove the Dish, or try to fine you for the Dish, there are several South Carolina cc laws that have a minimum $500 fine for each violation. 
Judges Just love adding punitative damages on top of fines, for willful misconduct.

I always thought that old fart was a southern term of endearment. hehehehehehehe


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

GrumpyBear said:


> I always thought that old fart was a southern term of endearment. hehehehehehehe


I guess you mean like that handy old southern phrase - "bless her/his heart" more frequently used by polite southern women? You know, like "she's dumb as a post, bless her heart."

But I guess I kinda like "old fart." I frequently used to offer an image of "just a poor country boy." Disarms the opposition, though I used to watch peoples faces as they'd make their initial judgment, then I'd set a beatup $1,200 briefcase on the table and see who noticed.

Yep, those generalizations offer a great way to hide in the open.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

One of the downsides of fighting a HOA in which you live is... even when you win, you sometimes lose.

The HOA will be using your paid dues to fight you in court... and if they lose, they might very well raise dues the next year to recoup those losses... so they are very much playing with "house" money.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

phrelin said:


> I guess you mean like that handy old southern phrase - "bless her/his heart" more frequently used by polite southern women? You know, like "she's dumb as a post, bless her heart."
> 
> But I guess I kinda like "old fart." I frequently used to offer an image of "just a poor country boy." Disarms the opposition, though I used to watch peoples faces as they'd make their initial judgment, then I'd set a beatup $1,200 briefcase on the table and see who noticed.
> 
> Yep, those generalizations offer a great way to hide in the open.


You do bring up a good point that the HOA is playing chicken with LilGator. They are hoping Lil wont, want to deal with the idea having to actually hire a lawyer and spend all the money upfront. Letting the HOA know that LiL has 2 different means of fighting them at no cost like the FCC Petition and Civil Court may help change thier minds.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Stewart Vernon said:


> One of the downsides of fighting a HOA in which you live is... even when you win, you sometimes lose.
> 
> The HOA will be using your paid dues to fight you in court... and if they lose, they might very well raise dues the next year to recoup those losses... so they are very much playing with "house" money.


Ah, the benefits of Civil Court and using civil codes vs Trail court or Civil court to have a law enforced, to fight a HOA, who willfully violates the law.

All 50 States have cc that allow the Individual HOA Board member to be sued, and only the HOA board member is financially responsible as there are no lawyers needed, just two people who go before the judge and put there case/explaination out there. Smaller dollar amounts $50-$500 for these kinds of fines, but punitive damages can bring it up, depending on state, to a max imum of $4k-$5k. Point here isn't making money, just getting them to obey the laws. Going this route always make each violation a seperate issue, neve lump them into each other.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

At this point you should ask for a letter from the HOA stating that you are not allowed to have the sat dish. Until they give you that in writing, I wouldn't do anything. I have some rental property and as soon as one of my tenants leaves a garbage can sit out I get a letter from the HOA informing me of a violation. Once you have the letter you can include that with your petition.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

GrumpyBear said:


> Not only is the FCC petition a GREAT thing to do, but this is a great time to inform the board that laws of incorporation don't protect them from being sued, in civil court. ...


I'd call Judge Judy. She'll fix 'em.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

DoyleS said:


> At this point you should ask for a letter from the HOA stating that you are not allowed to have the sat dish. Until they give you that in writing, I wouldn't do anything.


I totally agree with DoyleS.
It would be an advantage to get that in writing.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Kent Taylor said:


> I totally agree with DoyleS.
> It would be an advantage to get that in writing.


Yep - wait for them to screw up - then sledgehammer them with an FCC petition.

Then if they still don't get the point - civil court.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

The other thing to do is to get a written copy of the HOA rules. In the rules there will be the process for resolving disagreements. Most everything needs to be done in writing. Once a dispute is submitted, typical rules suspend any fines until the HOA board has met and given a ruling on the case. Keep in mind that many times the HOA board is made up of some anal types that are really interested in their own agenda and that is why they get on the board.


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## wallybarthman (Feb 4, 2009)

LilGator said:


> So my landlord had a conversation with the HOA and we're both pretty much speechless at their response.
> 
> They know about the FCC's regulation, and are maintaining the "no satellite dishes" rule. They simply don't care.
> 
> ...


File an FCC Complaint.

http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

DoyleS said:


> At this point you should ask for a letter from the HOA stating that you are not allowed to have the sat dish. Until they give you that in writing, I wouldn't do anything. I have some rental property and as soon as one of my tenants leaves a garbage can sit out I get a letter from the HOA informing me of a violation. Once you have the letter you can include that with your petition.


Well, this is essentially what has happened here. Since I'm leasing, the HOA has sent a letter to the owner of the condo informing them of the "violation" they are "enforcing".

The FCC petition has me intrigued- the problem is the timing and whether it would be effective or not. Just the threat of it, or the action of the petition taking place won't be enough.

I can say that bullying the HOA isn't going to work. They just flat out don't care. Bring it on is their attitude, calling any and every bluff.

The landlord has been helpful and is even willing to pay the difference switching back to cable would cost. I'm trying my best not to cause problems for him because I know it's not in his interest to spend significant time/money on this.

What I'm reading in the HOA master deed is that refusing to take something down gives them the right to enter my unit, remove it themselves, and charge me for the costs involved. Obviously they can also revoke my landlord's ability to lease here, killing my ability to lease from him here.

Is there any way I can get Dish Network to throw their weight around? I'm guessing they'd just say tough luck, here's your ETF.


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## ffemtreed (Jan 30, 2008)

I wouldn't budge one inch. I fought my HOA when I was a renter and as soon as they got served the civil case against them they changed their minds pretty quickly. 

Let them come and remove your dish, that just works in your favor. When your dish is missing you call the police and file a theft report. 

At this point I would sending each one of your neighbors in the HOA a copy of the FCC law and Dishnetworks or Direct TV flyer and a little statement of how much better and cheaper it is then the local cable company. 

At this point you just need to lay and let them bring it. No need to feed the wolf. As soon as they take a tangible action (such as levy a fine against you either directly or indirectly or steal your dish) is when you go on the offensive.

PS If it comes to it your lawsuit should include relocation fees as an expense to the HOA.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

ffemtreed said:


> I wouldn't budge one inch. I fought my HOA when I was a renter and as soon as they got served the civil case against them they changed their minds pretty quickly.
> 
> Let them come and remove your dish, that just works in your favor. When your dish is missing you call the police and file a theft report.
> 
> ...


I agree with this post. I really dislike HOAs, don't let them push you around.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

ffemtreed said:


> I wouldn't budge one inch. I fought my HOA when I was a renter and as soon as they got served the civil case against them they changed their minds pretty quickly.
> 
> Let them come and remove your dish, that just works in your favor. When your dish is missing you call the police and file a theft report.
> 
> ...


Here's some info I found links for.

Master Deed: http://nhenterprises.com/assets/pdf/The_Brio/Brio Master Deed Part 1.pdf

Portion relevant to satellite dishes (apologies for any OCR errors):



> *13.19 Antennas and Satellite Equipment*. Unless otherwise approved in writing by the Board, no Owner, Occupant, or any other Person shall place or maintain any type of exterior television or radio antenna, or satellite equipment on the Condominium. This provision shall not, however, prohibit the Association from constructing or maintaining a central antenna or communications system on the Condominium for the benefit of its members. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the Board of Directors shall regulate antennas, satellite dishes, or any other apparatns for the transrrrission or reception of television, radio, satellite, or other signals of any kind only in strict compliance with all federal laws and regulations.


Not budging one inch is what I want to do, but it seems like all that would accomplish is getting my lease terminated and evicted:



> Any violation of the Master Deed, By-Laws, or rules and regulations adopted pursuant thereto by the lessee, any Occupant, or any person living with the lessee, is deemed to be a default under the terms of the lease and authorizes the Owner to terminate the lease without liability and to evict the lessee in accordance with South Carolina law. The Owner hereby delegates and assigus to the Board of Directors, acting through the Board, the power and authority of enforcement against the lessee for breaehes resulting from the violation of the Master Deed, By-Laws, and the rules and regulations adopted pursuant thereto, including the power and authority to evict the lessee as attorney-in-fact on behalf and for the benefit of the Owner, in accordance with the terms hereof In the event the Board of Directors proceeds to evict the lessee, any costs, including attorney's fees and court costs, associated with the eviction shall be an assessment and lien against the Unit.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

> Notwithstanding the foregoing, the Board of Directors shall regulate antennas, satellite dishes, or any other apparatns for the transrrrission or reception of television, radio, satellite, or other signals of any kind only in strict compliance with all federal laws and regulations.


Sounds good to me ... strict compliance with OTARD would ALLOW you to have an antenna (or more) up to one meter in size (each) in order to receive satellite service. There are restrictions on where it can be placed, but the HOA cannot make unreasonable restrictions on installation of antennas.

This is the EXACT clause to include with a copy of OTARD. The board is directed to follow federal regulations by it's own deed!


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Well, Dish Network is offering nothing. They are telling me to either cancel service or move, giving me my ETF amount.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

LilGator said:


> Well, Dish Network is offering nothing. They are telling me to either cancel service or move, giving me my ETF amount.


nor should they. This isn't Dish's fight, it's yours and your landlords against your HOA.
I would take what has been provided for you here and fight this, as should your landlord. You can turn tail and run, but that just gives the HOA the balls to continue to be heavy handed with the next person. You have the knowledge to fight this, you have the information to fight this, you have the landlord willing to stand up to them, so do it!


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Slamminc11 said:


> nor should they. This isn't Dish's fight, it's yours and your landlords against your HOA.
> I would take what has been provided for you here and fight this, as should your landlord. You can turn tail and run, but that just gives the HOA the balls to continue to be heavy handed with the next person. You have the knowledge to fight this, you have the information to fight this, you have the landlord willing to stand up to them, so do it!


It's time to (figurtively, anyway) - "Kick the HOA board in <private space>" and show them they are not the Gods of the Universe they seem to think they are.

Ask your landlord for a copy of the letter, and get started on your FCC petition as outlined earlier. Keep him advised, and it sounds like you have a good one.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Slamminc11 said:


> LilGator said:
> 
> 
> > Well, Dish Network is offering nothing. They are telling me to either cancel service or move, giving me my ETF amount.
> ...


I hate people who dishonestly try to use a little authority to bolster their egos. So I would file a petition and write a letter like I suggested above. But with that said....

We all have to pick our battles. You may not choose to carry this banner. But the nice thing about this one is you will win. They have to act affirmatively in violation of federal law. But you'll tick off somebody. For all we know, it might be everyone in the building. On the other hand, one heavy handed bully may be a problem for everyone else and you'll be the hero.

Whatever you choose, it's you're life, not mine.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

The FCC petition is no problem, and I'm getting started on that gathering everything I need.

The problem is that realistically I've probably got about a week before I start getting pressure from my landlord, who's getting pressure right now from the HOA.

I have to take action somehow, and filing a petition won't change anything in the short run here.

My options right now seem to be:

1) Cancel Dish, comply with the illegal rule, petition the FCC and wait.

2) Do nothing, eventually getting my lease terminated and I evicted, petition the FCC and wait.

This is ****ing ridiculous.


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## Dishcomm (Jan 31, 2009)

LilGator said:


> Hi guys, have a question for you. I've had Dish for about 7-8 months here. I am renting a condo.
> 
> My landord just informed me that the HOA is evidentially "enforcing" the "no satellite dishes rule" in the HOA documents.
> 
> ...


Print the entire OTARD rule form the fcc.gov site...highlight the fact sheet on satellite dish placement and rules regarding use of same.
Take this and hend it to the biard president or whomever. Then you say "have a nice day" and leave.
There is NOTHING your HOA can do about your sat dish as long as you are compliant with the FCC rules. According to your description of your dish,. you seem to be compliant.
Your HOA can yell, scream, jump up and down, hold their breath until theyr pass out, threraten to fine you, etc, but they cannot legally compell you to remove or remove your dish themselves.
Nada. Nope. End of story.
link....http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/consumerdish.html....
BTW, you can offer up a big fat Wyoming Salute from me to your interloping busy bodied, blue haired old bitties on your HOA board.
I love it when I get the opportunity to shove the fcc rules right up their noses.


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## Juggernaut (Apr 5, 2007)

In general HOAs can do very little to enforce anything. We have a no-dish rule in our bylaws, but about 40% of the homeowners have a dish (including myself, in fact one neighbor is so upset about how 'ugly' mine is that we no longer speak). We have one member that hasn't payed his dues in three years, yet we still must pick up his trash and mow his lawn. We have spent thousands on legal fees, but there is really nothing we can do except put a lien on his property for the past dues and legal fees. We can collect if he sells, but as long as he stays put, we are out of luck. We can foreclose, but we'd lose money to do so now because he doesn't have enough equity to pay the massive legal fees. "Luckily" in about 8 more years we can actually foreclose, and get our money back.


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## Dishcomm (Jan 31, 2009)

LilGator said:


> So my landlord had a conversation with the HOA and we're both pretty much speechless at their response.
> 
> They know about the FCC's regulation, and are maintaining the "no satellite dishes" rule. They simply don't care.
> 
> ...


do not move your dish. Let the HOA be the ones in violation.
Here's where you start documenting everything that occurs. Every letter form the HOA, every phone call. Record all phone conversations.
Let this go for a month. You are collecting evidence.
If it doesn't stop after 30 days, go to your local courthouse and file a civil complaint in small claims. You do not need an attorney. The people at the courthouse will help you. It would not hurt to google some info on how to determine if you have a legitimate small claims case.
I think you can serve the papers via "REGISTERED not CERTIFIED mail.....Again, check your state's regulations on this.
It appears to me these HOA people are not interested in the laws of the land.
They think that HOA is their own little private fiefdom and no one is goiong to tell them how to run it. Their arrogance will be their undoing.
If I were you I would try to non-verbally dare them to remove or otherwise disable your dish..
In fact if i were in your shoes I would torment these mother effers. But that's just me. I have a twisted mind when it comes to getting back at people I think are screwing with me.

Keep us posted... Above all, do not be concerned. Just let them do their thing. Collect every piece of paper. Document and record every phone call. Save every email.
Oh one more thing...DO NOT under any circumstances let the oppostion know what you are doing. DO not threaten to sue or anything else. In fact just smile and wave when you see any of the HOA board members. They will be scratching their heads wondering why you are being so pleasant towrd them....
Told ya I was twisted.....


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## Dishcomm (Jan 31, 2009)

Jim5506 said:


> Leave your dish where it is and make them make the first move.
> 
> You won't need an attourney to beat them in any court, just plop down the FCC OTARD Rules and checkmate.
> 
> You might also consider getting the news media into this, they love these kind of human interest stories and bad publicity for the HOA might get some other owners off their duffs.


Oh yeah...the news media.. especially tv..they will leap all over a story like this!!!!!!


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## Dishcomm (Jan 31, 2009)

SaltiDawg said:


> I'd call Judge Judy. She'll fix 'em.


not a bad idea.. I watch that show. She seems to favor the little guy in cases where there is a bully. In this case the HOA is the bully.
Heck they pay each litigant to be on the show. But the judgements are paid by the loser if any.


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

Here is a group out of Washington, DC that will help you fight...

www.SBCA.com

And the complaint form to fill out for OTARD violations: http://www.sbca.com/otard/default.asp

Good luck!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stepping back a moment ...


LilGator said:


> I am renting a condo.
> 
> My landord just informed me that the HOA is evidentially "enforcing" the "no satellite dishes rule" in the HOA documents.


Just a quick clarification ... you don't own the condo, the landlord owns the condo? The landlord is the one who holds the deed and is part of the HOA and you're renting from the owner?

If so it puts you on a different level ... it is more the owner's problem than yours. If the landlord is friendly you can arm him well but the fight is between him and the HOA ... and if he doesn't want to fight then the fight becomes between you and the landlord. You vs the HOA doesn't seem to be the level.

You can still fight for your right to have a satellite DISH, but your fight is with the person you have a contract with ... not the group that your landlord has a contract with. Dealing with the HOA is his battle, not yours.

(Unless I've read this wrong ... people owning condos don't usually have landlords.)


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## Dishcomm (Jan 31, 2009)

LilGator said:


> Well, this is essentially what has happened here. Since I'm leasing, the HOA has sent a letter to the owner of the condo informing them of the "violation" they are "enforcing".
> 
> The FCC petition has me intrigued- the problem is the timing and whether it would be effective or not. Just the threat of it, or the action of the petition taking place won't be enough.
> 
> ...


C'mon..DOn't cave. How many times have you seen others who will simply refuse ot take a stand on anything and just wanted to spit nails..
This is your opportunity to take a stand and say "enough! I will not be pushed around!"....
Like the late Jimmy Valvano said. "Don't give up. Don't ever give up"...

Take a stand. If not just for yourself, but for everyone else who has been threatened by these pukes...
Oh, the HOA cannot do anything like you describe to your landlord. That is illegal and the HOA knows it. 
To them, this is a challenge to their self appointed power. Usually these are the easiest people to push over the edge into doing something stupid. That is people guided by emotion. And your HOA board members are guided by emotion.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Lease holders are protected as well as owners. It's the occupant who is protected. As long as the lease holder is following OTARD, he is covered just as well as the owner of the property.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James said what I was going to, but I'll say it anyway 

The real problem the OP is running into here is that his landlord doesn't seem to want to fight the HOA.

If you are the homeowner or landlord, then you'd 100% win this fight... but if you are leasing/renting the condo, you might be evicted or out on the street when you win the fight unless your landlord wants to fight with you.

So for as much as many of us hate HOAs... the bigger roadblock here seems to be the OP's landlord doesn't want to fight. I really don't know what to do in that scenario... because while the HOA is 100% wrong, the landlord probably doesn't have to fight it if he doesn't want to.

And the way the FCC has things written... the landlord has the right to erect an antenna without asking the HOA for permission... but the person renting/leasing doesn't have the right to erect an antenna without permission from the landlord.

In other words... I can put a dish on my house that I own and the HOA can't stop me... but if I turn around and rent my house to someone, I don't have to permit that person to put a dish on my home that I'm renting to them.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Stewart Vernon said:


> James said what I was going to, but I'll say it anyway
> 
> The real problem the OP is running into here is that his landlord doesn't seem to want to fight the HOA.
> 
> ...


Read that again - as the landlord - you can prohibit your leaseholder from "damaging" your property - such as screwing the dish into the walls / roof, or drilling holes for the cable to go through - however - if the leaseholder can "mount the dish and get the cable to the receiver" without damaging the property - your hands are essentially tied as much as the HOA's.


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

Stewart Vernon said:


> James said what I was going to, but I'll say it anyway
> 
> The real problem the OP is running into here is that his landlord doesn't seem to want to fight the HOA.
> 
> ...


Read it again...

"Effective January 22, 1999, the Commission amended the rule so that it also applies to *rental property* where the *renter* has an exclusive use area, such as a balcony or patio.

The rule applies to individuals who place antennas that meet size limitations on property that they own or _*rent*_ and that is within their exclusive use or control, including condominium owners and cooperative owners, and _*tenants*_ who have an area where they have exclusive use, such as a balcony or patio, in which to install the antenna. The rule applies to townhomes and manufactured homes, as well as to single family homes"

Nothing in OTARD states that just because you rent the property from a landlord that you lose any rights....


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Justin23 said:


> Nothing in OTARD states that just because you rent the property from a landlord that you lose any rights....


The point is the battle is between the person who wants the antenna and whomever they have the contract with. He's got to deal with the landlord.

The landlord has standing with the HOA ... not the satellite customer here.

Yes, the customer has rights - but only with the person they have an agreement with.

And in real life, when someone starts asserting their "rights" and forces a conclusion it doesn't always lead to a pleasant future. If the person you have a problem with can be convinced it works out better than via lawyers and threats.


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

James Long said:


> The point is the battle is between the person who wants the antenna and whomever they have the contract with. He's got to deal with the landlord.
> 
> The landlord has standing with the HOA ... not the satellite customer here.
> 
> Yes, the customer has rights - but only with the person they have an agreement with.


Where in OTARD does it state that? It says "renter"...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Justin23 said:


> Where in OTARD does it state that? It says "renter"...


So who did it apply to from October 1996 until January 1999 when the word renter was added?

"Renters" is just part of the law ... not the entirety of the law.

I'm not saying the OP doesn't have rights, but he needs to deal with his landlord ... not the HOA directly.


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

James Long said:


> So who did it apply to from October 1996 until January 1999 when the word renter was added?
> 
> "Renters" is just part of the law ... not the entirety of the law.
> 
> I'm not saying the OP doesn't have rights, but he needs to deal with his landlord ... not the HOA directly.


It doesn't matter WHO it applied to before...just matters who it covers NOW. And now it protects renters. Nowhere in OTARD does it state, "hey you are protected as a renter, but have to get your landlord's permission first". :nono:


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

James Long said:


> The point is the battle is between the person who wants the antenna and whomever they have the contract with. He's got to deal with the landlord.
> 
> The landlord has standing with the HOA ... not the satellite customer here.
> 
> ...


Then by your logic - the satellite customer can do whatever he wants - since he has no standing with the HOA - they would also have no standing over him.

Just because he is a renter, he DOES have standing here, whether the thugs on the HOA board want to acknowledge or not.

Besides - the landlord is NOT the problem here -


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

scooper said:


> Besides - the landlord is NOT the problem here -


He is if he does not allow the OP to keep his legally installed dish.

At the end of this issue the HOA is going to go after the owner of the property ... the person who agreed to the HOA rules when they signed the deed. He will have to make the fight or flight decision.

And if the landlord chooses flight and tells our OP renter to remove the dish 
then the renter can fight him.

I don't know why people in this thread are refusing to READ what I have written ... perhaps if I say it AGAIN in bold print it will sink in:
*The OP has rights under OTARD to have a satellite dish on the exclusive use portion of the property he is renting from his landlord.*

Also ... *The landlord (property owner) has rights under OTARD to have a satellite dish on the exclusive use portion of the property he owns, above any unreasonable rule that would prevent that.*

From the description offered it sounds like this dish is on an exclusive use patio. If the area is shared with other residents it isn't exclusive use and is not protected by OTARD.

OTARD is a good rule, but it is not a free pass to do whatever you want to have a dish installed. You can be prevented from drilling holes (find some other way to get the coax in). You can be prevented from mounting to outside walls. "OTARD" isn't a magic word that allows anything. Restrictions may apply.

From the information supplied it sounds like the OP's installation is protected ... but only someone who knows what is exclusive and what is not at that specific property would know for sure.

Hopefully a conversation with the landlord with OTARD in hand can clear up the issue and he can fight the "blue hairs".


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth... but I *think* we all agree here that the OP has rights, and that it sounds like his particular installation of the satellite dish is in compliance with what the FCC grants as his rights.

The problem here is it is a 3-way scenario.

Renter - Landlord - HOA

The HOA issues a complaint.

In this scenario the renter does have rights, but he has to secure those rights between him and his landlord. The landlord has to secure his rights as the owner with the HOA.

The renter really has no standing directly with the HOA, as he does not own the property. The renter has to complain to the landlord who then has to take it to the HOA. It doesn't sound like the landlord wants to do this.

So... the renter can fight his landlord and win... eventually... but in the meantime, if his landlord has decided not to fight the HOA... the likely scenario is that the renter will be evicted OR will have to go to court to prevent himself from being evicted until the dispute is resolved.

For as wrong as the HOA is... I'd say the landlord is not a good landlord either because he is not following through and taking care of this issue on behalf of his renter.

That being the case... this could get nasty before it gets better.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

ffemtreed said:


> At this point I would sending each one of your neighbors in the HOA a copy of the FCC law and Dishnetworks or Direct TV flyer and a little statement of how much better and cheaper it is then the local cable company.


This is an awesome idea. Who knows how many people in that development have wanted to get satellite but did not know their rights under OTARD.

Lilgator,

You keep mentioning something about your landlord losing his right to lease. Could you clarify this a little more. Also, while the fight is technically between the owner and the HOA, you have rights as a renter. So as long as you are compliant with your lease, he can't kick you out until the end of the lease.

And while this may turn into a PITA for him, if you are paying rent on time and otherwise being a good tenant, he is not going to send you packing at renewal time. Finding a new tenant is a bigger PITA.

Plus, if you lose your place to live over this, you now have real damages against the HOA and if it comes to this, I would make sure everyone that is a member (ie all the residents, not just the board) become aware that they may have to foot the bill for their board's completely inappropriate actions.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Stewart Vernon said:


> ....
> In other words... I can put a dish on my house that I own and the HOA can't stop me... but if I turn around and rent my house to someone, I don't have to permit that person to put a dish on my home that I'm renting to them.


If the tenant puts an antenna in a bucket of sand and runs the coax along the ground to the receiver, just why does he need the land lord's permission?

Does he need permission to put a chair on the patio?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

To me, the approach is to out-bully the bully. As I said:


phrelin said:


> Pretend you and your landlord are willing to risk some money to get some money.
> 
> In a carefully worded letter, tell the HOA to sue if they want to lose, plus end up spending a considerable sum on both side's attorney fees, plus a considerable sum from an emotional stress damage award resulting from a cross-filing accusing them of engaging in harassment in a manner knowingly in violation of federal law.
> 
> Sometimes you only have to bully the bullies.


Also by filing with the FCC and including that with the letter, it makes it believable. But both should be signed by the landlord and tenant to be really effective.

And as I said:


phrelin said:


> We all have to pick our battles. You may not choose to carry this banner. But the nice thing about this one is you will win. They have to act affirmatively in violation of federal law. But you'll tick off somebody. For all we know, it might be everyone in the building. On the other hand, one heavy handed bully may be a problem for everyone else and you'll be the hero.
> 
> Whatever you choose, it's you're life, not mine.


Take it from someone who has done it, fighting with people just because you know you are right sometimes is not worth it. Sometimes it is. I can't know what's important in LilGator's life.


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## ffemtreed (Jan 30, 2008)

When I filed my courtcase against my HOA I had to include my landlord as a defendant in the case even though he was on my side. 

As a renter you are bound by the HOA rules (Its usually part of your lease with the landlord). 

Honestly, the best thing for you is if they do start an eviction process against you. (they just can't show up one day and throw you out). You will own that condo if they evict you for illegal reasons. 

What I would do right now is submit an application to have your dish approved. If you already done this and it was denied then make sure you save any evidence of this as this is your golden ticket. 

as others have said document and save everything. After any verbal communications immediately write notes to your best recollection.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth... but I *think* we all agree here that the OP has rights, and that it sounds like his particular installation of the satellite dish is in compliance with what the FCC grants as his rights.
> 
> The problem here is it is a 3-way scenario.
> 
> ...


This is a pretty good summary of my point of view, and thus my dilemma. I'm _really_ not wanting to lay down here, but getting evicted or having to go to court and defend myself is not a friendly option.

It's frustrating that even though the HOA is violating federal law, I am treated guilty until proven innocent if I stand up to their abuse.



Herdfan said:


> This is an awesome idea. Who knows how many people in that development have wanted to get satellite but did not know their rights under OTARD.
> 
> Lilgator,
> 
> ...


The first thing is something I will definitely be doing, at least for all south-facing residents (but probably for all, since it's an awareness issue).

The full section about the HOA being able to have my lease terminated by not being in "compliance" with the master deed is here:



> (c) Compliance With Master Deed, By-Laws, and Rules and Regulations, Use of Common Elements, and Liability Assessments. Any lease of a Unit shall be deemed to contain the following provisions, whether or not expressly therein stated, and each Owner and each lessee, by occupancy of a Unit, covenants and agrees that any lease of a Unit shall contain the following language and agrees that if such language is not expressly contained therein, then such language shall be incorporated into the lease by existence of this covenant on the Unit:
> 
> (i) Compliance With Master Deed, By-Laws, and Rules and Regulations. The lessee shall comply with all provisions of the Master Deed, By-Laws, and rules and regulations adopted pursuant thereto and shall control the conduct of all other Occupants and guests of the leased Unit in order to ensure compliance with the foregoing. The Owner shall cause all Occupants of his or her Unit to comply with the Master Deed, By-Laws, and the rules and regulations adopted pursuant thereto, and shall be responsible for all violations by such Occupants, notwithstanding the fact that such Occupants of the Unit are fully liable and may be sanctioned for any violation of the Master Deed, By-Laws, and rules and regulations adopted pursuant thereto. In the event that the lessee, or a person living with the lessee, violates the Master Deed, By-Laws, or a rule or regulation for which a fine is imposed, notice of the violation shall be given to the Owner and the lessee, and such fine shall be assessed against the lessee in accordance with Article 3, Section 3.23 of the By-Laws. If the fine is not paid by the lessee within the time period set by the Board, the Board may assess the fine against the Owner and the Owner shall pay the fine upon notice from the Board of Directors of the lessee's failure to pay the fine. Unpaid fines shall constitute a lien against the Unit.
> 
> Any violation of the Master Deed, By-Laws, or rules and regulations adopted pursuant thereto by the lessee, any Occupant, or any person living with the lessee, is deemed to be a default under the terms of the lease and authorizes the Owner to terminate the lease without liability and to evict the lessee in accordance with South Carolina law. The Owner hereby delegates and assigns to the Board of Directors, acting through the Board, the power and authority of enforcement against the lessee for breaches resulting from the violation of the Master Deed, By-Laws, and the rules and regulations adopted pursuant thereto, including the power and authority to evict the lessee as attorney-in-fact on behalf and for the benefit of the Owner, in accordance with the terms hereof In the event the Board of Directors proceeds to evict the lessee, any costs, including attorney's fees and court costs, associated with the eviction shall be an assessment and lien against the Unit.


I'm not entirely sure about the owner getting his permit (?) to lease revoked by the board by not being in "compliance" with the master deed. This is what he told me over the phone. I don't have sufficient reason to doubt it, based on what I have found in the master deed, but I'm still looking it over for those specifics.

Here's a link to the master deed: http://nhenterprises.com/assets/pdf/The_Brio/Brio Master Deed Part 1.pdf

Your other point is what I'd call my last resort if I chose to be a dick. If I tell the owner that come renewal time I won't be renewing my lease because of this, it will then become a more significant problem for him to choose to deal with.

As far as having "real damages" should I get evicted- it still leaves me evicted, having to move and find a place to live temporarily, hire an attorney...

No matter what angle I take on this, it seems my only realistic option is to cancel Dish, switch back to cable and from there do everything I can to fight this. Only at this point they've realized their scare tactics have already worked, as I've already caved.

I did fill out the complaint form for SBCA- hopefully something comes of that. (Thanks for the suggestion, Justin23)


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

James Long said:


> He is if he does not allow the OP to keep his legally installed dish.
> 
> At the end of this issue the HOA is going to go after the owner of the property ... the person who agreed to the HOA rules when they signed the deed. He will have to make the fight or flight decision.
> 
> ...


Sigh....:beatdeadhorse:


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## ffemtreed (Jan 30, 2008)

LilGator said:


> This is a pretty good summary of my point of view, and thus my dilemma. I'm _really_ not wanting to lay down here, but getting evicted or having to go to court and defend myself is not a friendly option.
> 
> It's frustrating that even though the HOA is violating federal law, I am treated guilty until proven innocent if I stand up to their abuse.
> 
> ...


You are looking at all that stuff too literally. Even IF the can take away your landlords right to lease the property they would still have to go through a proper eviction suit with you. With a solid case such as yours there is almost no way you'll be evicted over a satellite dish that you are legally allowed to have. A little hint here, once they file the civil suit file a motion to have it moved to federal civil court due to the nature of the federal laws. You will have to take a couple hours of time to read and understand the rules of federal civil procedure, but they are not that hard. I doubt you will ever actually make it to court anyways as soon as the HOA lawyers pick up the case. They get real nervous in federal court for some reason.

Do you really think your landlord is just going to up and give up his right to lease/rent the property?? No way, too much money at risk for him. He is going to fight this till the bitter end. Right now you taking down your dish is the EASY way out for him/her, so that's the resolution he wants.

If you just sit there and take this because of the threats you are doing everyone in America a disservice.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

ffemtreed said:


> You are looking at all that stuff too literally. Even IF the can take away your landlords right to lease the property they would still have to go through a proper eviction suit with you. With a solid case such as yours there is almost no way you'll be evicted over a satellite dish that you are legally allowed to have. A little hint here, once they file the civil suit file a motion to have it moved to federal civil court due to the nature of the federal laws. You will have to take a couple hours of time to read and understand the rules of federal civil procedure, but they are not that hard. I doubt you will ever actually make it to court anyways as soon as the HOA lawyers pick up the case. They get real nervous in federal court for some reason.
> 
> Do you really think your landlord is just going to up and give up his right to lease/rent the property?? No way, too much money at risk for him. He is going to fight this till the bitter end. Right now you taking down your dish is the EASY way out for him/her, so that's the resolution he wants.
> 
> If you just sit there and take this because of the threats you are doing everyone in America a disservice.


Part of it is me not fully understanding the eviction process that you describe, and the other part is not wanting to screw the owner over- especially considering we have a very good relationship right now.

Maybe this is where I should start: http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t27c040.htm

If I understand correctly, a landlord would have to contact the magistrate court in order to evict the tenant (in this case, the landlord wouldn't be doing this). As I'm understanding, the board would have to present the section of the master deed that I am in violation of to the magistrate court. At what point am I served with this and given the opportunity to present OTARD to the magistrate court and tell the HOA board to "suck one"?

How does this process work when the master deed gives the board authority to evict as attorney-in-fact on behalf of the owner?

Legally what happens when the board determines that my lease is in violation and terminated? Is this meaningless without an eviction process?


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## ffemtreed (Jan 30, 2008)

LilGator said:


> Part of it is me not fully understanding the eviction process that you describe, and the other part is not wanting to screw the owner over- especially considering we have a very good relationship right now.
> 
> Maybe this is where I should start: http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t27c040.htm
> 
> ...


Eviction process in PA (i am sure most states are similar)

Steps a land lord must take
#1 give notice of eviction suit usually 14 days to remedy situation. (this can be waived in some leases)
#2 File a landlord tenant/civil complaint with local courts
#3 Get a court date (usually at least 2 weeks away) 
#4 go to court and tell Judge why the eviction is taking place
#5 If won in court, you must wait 10 days for an appeal process
#6 Get a writ of possession from the courts to take physical possession of the property
#7 Constable or Sheriff posts the property saying he/she will be back in 14 days to physically remove anyone still living there.

I have evicted 5 people in my life and the soonest I was able to get someone out was 5 weeks. Its a real pain in the behind.

Yes the lease be invalidated doesn't mean anything to you, they still have to go through the eviction process. The HOA acting as attorney in fact is bound by the same eviction rules as your landlord.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

SaltiDawg said:


> If the tenant puts an antenna in a bucket of sand and runs the coax along the ground to the receiver, just why does he need the land lord's permission?
> 
> Does he need permission to put a chair on the patio?


No... This is really tangential to the OP's real situation... but I was basically just pointing out that a renter doesn't have the same rights as the owner.

The owner can drill all the holes he wants, but can restrict the renter from doing so.

The dish on the patio not attached to anything, and in an exclusive use area, is a right that is the same for both renter and owner in this specific case.


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## tpbrady (Sep 1, 2004)

I have been involved in a couple of petitions, and the key here is to file the petition. Until the petition is ruled on by the FCC, I am pretty sure all legal activities are suspended. In the petition, I would name both the landlord and the HOA. The FCC is a reasonable group and if in the petition you clearly explain that the landlord is being held hostage by the HOA, then the Commission will identify the guilty party. The key here is file the petition. It has to start somewhere. If the Commission rules the way everyone expects them to, then the HOA is powerless to penalize the landlord without opening a really big can of worms for themselves. If you want to remove the dish, file the petition any way to prove you took it down because you wanted to and not because you had to.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

I agree with TPBrady. File the petition. You should get some sort of confirmation back from the FCC that the petition has been filed. Then if they ask in writing for you to remove the dish show them a copy of the filed petition and state that until the FCC rules the dish is staying where it is. In a case like this you really need to be reasonable but firm. Unless they are completely clueless, they should be willing to wait for the ruling.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stewart Vernon said:


> The owner can drill all the holes he wants,


In HIS property ... but if the outside walls are considered "community property" of the HOA even the owner cannot drill holes (unless otherwise permitted by the HOA). OTARD gives no permission to drill a hole.

Some HOAs may limit renovations within the home to keep up the standards of the neighborhood. Makes me glad I'm not part of a HOA.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

Stewart Vernon said:


> No... This is really tangential to the OP's real situation... but I was basically just pointing out that a renter doesn't have the same rights as the owner.
> 
> The owner can drill all the holes he wants, but can restrict the renter from doing so.
> 
> The dish on the patio not attached to anything, and in an exclusive use area, is a right that is the same for both renter and owner in this specific case.


In that case, the owner should purchase the service and include it as part of the rent. Wouldn't that make things easier to defend in court?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I would temporary move the tripod into garage and fire up the paperworks right away.
Perhaps move it out each night .


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## BAHitman (Oct 24, 2007)

Sounds to me like the OP's dish is due for a coat of flourescent pink spray paint...


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

BAHitman said:


> Sounds to me like the OP's dish is due for a coat of flourescent pink spray paint...


I wouldn't go THAT far...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Some camoflage might be more appropriate ... a dish rock, a cover. Something to make it less obtrusive. Of course now they know it is a dish hiding it is mitigating the problem. Maybe they will accept that.


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## ffemtreed (Jan 30, 2008)

BAHitman said:


> Sounds to me like the OP's dish is due for a coat of flourescent pink spray paint...


I had to paint my dish when I battled the HOA. They tried to claim that it was an advertising sign for Direct TV because it had their logo on it.

At this point I wouldn't do ANYTHING to antagonize the HOA (except share with other people in the HOA your right to have satellite and how much better it is than cable).


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

tfederov said:


> In that case, the owner should purchase the service and include it as part of the rent. Wouldn't that make things easier to defend in court?


Probably... and I'm sure some landlords do just that... of course it means the landlord is really the Dish customer, and if he ever rents to a customer who wants DirecTV or cable he'd have to make changes/break the commitment, etc... so there's always a can of worms somewhere 

The real-reality at work here is the HOA is wrong, and the landlord should stand up for his tenant in this scenario so the OP doesn't have to keep worrying about this. The OP is abiding by the law/rules and is even going the extra mile (that the landlord should be doing) by asking for help here and looking up proof that he is in the right.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> In HIS property ... but if the outside walls are considered "community property" of the HOA even the owner cannot drill holes (unless otherwise permitted by the HOA). OTARD gives no permission to drill a hole.
> 
> Some HOAs may limit renovations within the home to keep up the standards of the neighborhood. Makes me glad I'm not part of a HOA.


Yeah... in the case of a condo/townhouse where there are shared walls... then yeah, even the owner can't just drill wherever he wants.


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## BAHitman (Oct 24, 2007)

scooper said:


> I wouldn't go THAT far...


I would agree, he's not at the "paint the dish bright pink" part of this one yet...

A friend of mine went through the battles with the HOA, and when he won, they started giving him a hard time about it, so I helped hime paint the dish... flourescent pink for a week, then we went with a shade of green to help blend in with the surroundings. In his case, the shrubs in front of his house.

He finally got them to back off by saying he would be happy to have a bright pink dish if they wanted to push the issue farther... I think it even led to an addemdum to the HOA rules that a dish, if visible to the street had to be painted to "blend" into the surroundings.

blad I live in the stix where no HOA exists...


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

I think you guys are right on with the petition- I called the FCC and explained my situation. They basically parroted the instructions on the OTARD factsheet, but she did say that while the petition is pending (as soon as I serve the petition), I am free to leave my antenna up.

I'm going to try and knock this out tonight. Does anyone have an example/template they've done? I know it's pretty informal, but I don't want to leave anything obvious out.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

OK, I feel like I need to chime in here to defend HOA's. I'm President of our HOA and we had a restriction on satellite dishes but our Board of Directors updated our Covenants and removed that restriction. Our goal is to make our neighborhood (100 +homes) attractive to our existing neighbors and those looking to relocate. We enforce our Covenants and our Design Standards and have had no major issues in dealing with our neighbors. We are all listed on our web site and are accessible to any of our neighbors at any time. 
Please don't broad brush all Homeowners Associations as being a bunch of ego maniacs on a power trip. I'm probably the oldest guy in the subdivision and our Board consists of middle age to very young. We have very civil meetings and we always address the concerns of the neighborhood.
Now, :backtotop.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

Kent Taylor said:


> ...
> Please don't broad brush all Homeowners Associations as being a bunch of ego maniacs on a power trip...


No not all of them, just 98%...


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

LilGator said:


> I think you guys are right on with the petition- I called the FCC and explained my situation. They basically parroted the instructions on the OTARD factsheet, but she did say that while the petition is pending (as soon as I serve the petition), I am free to leave my antenna up.


When you serve the HOA, ask them who their attorney is so you can send them a copy as well. My guess is as soon as the HOA attorney reads the OTARD he will advise them they are in the wrong. So the sooner the attorney gets it, the better.

Here is a copy of an FCC ruling on the issue:

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/1997/da972305.txt

And here is an informative document:

http://www.wba-law.com/Unique_Practice_Areas/Homeowners_Associations/

Good luck!


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Thanks guys. I have most everything ready to go- just waiting to see if I can get a written notice if it was provided to my landlord to include in the petition.

I took some pictures today and will be including them in the petition as well, just so everything is crystal clear.

Six pics here, you can view the full images and see views from the balcony (sixth floor), the road below, and the main road the building is on:


http://imgur.com/brFbil


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

LilGator said:


> Thanks guys. I have most everything ready to go- just waiting to see if I can get a written notice if it was provided to my landlord to include in the petition.
> 
> I took some pictures today and will be including them in the petition as well, just so everything is crystal clear.
> 
> ...


How is the dish uglier than a bicycle or propane grill? If I hadn't been looking for it in some of the pics I would have never even known it was there.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Looks nice and clean - what those HOA gestapo thinking ...


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

It's hard to believe anyone would have a problem with that.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Yeah, that's just crazy nitpicky. Hard to tell from the surroundings, but it almost looks like you'd need to be on the balcony to see the thing!


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Well, this is the reply I got from the owner when I told him I was going to leave the dish up and file a petition for declaratory ruling:



> I fully understand your position on this and I'm somewhat confident that in the fullness of time that you would be able to keep your Dish. I think that the HOA may know that too. Unfortunately, unfair as it may seem, the HOA is insisting that this dish be immediately removed and they are willing to take legal action against me to get that done. If we don't remove it, I'm afraid I won't get a permit from the HOA to lease the unit (which they can do), and I will be forced to cancel any leases I have in place, and I will not be able to re-lease the unit. So right or wrong, the HOA has leverage. Additionally, I don't have the resources or the inclination to get into a legal battle with the HOA. Their issue will be with me, the owner, not you, the tenant. I hope you understand that I have a significant investment at the Brio and that I need to protect it. Regardless of whether we are right or wrong, I lose in this situation unless the dish gets removed.


What I've decided to do is move the dish into the storage closet outside (temp. switch back to cable), file the petition with the FCC today and wait it out. The HOA will think it has won ... for about a day until they receive my certified letter (certified or registered?).

With a favorable declaratory ruling, I will move the dish back out and resume service. Of course, also sending copies of this ruling and a letter to some south-facing residents here.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

Just make sure you and the owner stay on the same page. If you lose him having your back it'll make living there after all of this is decided much worse. Good luck with this. I agree with others, you can barely see the dish from those pics.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

Any chance you could move that inside and pick up the signal through the window while you get this worked out?
Does your HOA have a web site?


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## GoPokes43 (Sep 13, 2007)

"...the HOA is insisting that this dish be immediately removed and they are willing to take legal action against me to get that done."

Why not just wait for the "legal action"? Make them take the first move. They won't be able to get any injunction and the dish stays in place.

As your landlord indicates, it's his fight (and he has the federal law on his side). But, you (even as a tenant) have the federal law on your side as well vis-a-vis your landlord.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

tfederov said:


> Just make sure you and the owner stay on the same page. If you lose him having your back it'll make living there after all of this is decided much worse. Good luck with this. I agree with others, you can barely see the dish from those pics.


Now I'm not so sure of that- his reply:



> This is America and you can do what you want. However, regardless of any rulings, the HOA is not going to relent and they will make a legal challenge. That will probably cause me to lose my permit, perhaps permanently, and therefore not be able to lease the unit to you or anyone else. You will have satellite service and no lease, so in the end, it brings us to the same place. If you want to have the service, it will need to be somewhere else, or the dish will need to be out of sight. Will it work in the closet or behind a window? I have every indication that the HOA will not back off in any case. This will cause me a TREMENDOUS problem. Perhaps thousands of dollars. Their issue is not with you, it's my responsibility because I'm the owner. I would prefer that you find the best alternative to Satellite and leave it at that. I understand that this is important to you, and that you may choose to live somewhere else. But I'm afraid I have no choice at this point. Think it over and give me a call.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

LilGator said:


> Now I'm not so sure of that- his reply:


Things I would do
A - send the complaint to the FCC, with copies to landlord, HOA board, and Board's attorney
B - Send separate letter to landlord stating that if he chooses to terminate the lease over this, you expect him to forgo any early termination fees / penalties and full reimbursement of all moving expenses.
C - change the locks ASAP, with no keys to anyone outside of your household until this is settled.
D - be prepared to move - I'd start packing tonight and living out of boxes if necessary

If the HOA takes it to court - show up with a copy of OTARD and the HOA's regs, and be sure to point out to the judge that their own governing documents requires them to comply with OTARD (federal document covering this). Also bring copy of complaint to FCC. As well as your pictures (got to show the judge these guys are truly being 1st class a _ _ holes).

In letter to the landlord - point out that the board is being a bunch of bullies who need to be kicked in the nuts about this. Also point out that if the board is not following its reg about following federal law, then the landlord shouldn't worry about the board pulling a permit for renting.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

I would take it down, but file the petition and include that your right to live there is being threatened because of this issue. Ask for an expidited ruling.

But at the end of the day, even if you win, your landlord could lose if he loses his right to lease his units. So if he is truly a good guy, you might not want to cause him this hardship and just find somewhere else to live.

But after you move, sue the HOA for all costs associated with your having to move. Leave him out of it, but rake their a** through the coals.


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## hookemfins (Jul 3, 2007)

My response to him is, "the law supersedes the HOA rules". I would further tell him that you have 2 choices, either help and fight with me or start eviction proceedings and loose in court where you will have to pay my court costs. It is time for you go on the offensive.

They cannot just kick you out. There are procedures that the landlord must follow which means having to go in front of a judge. That is where you can appear before the judge with the FCC rules. Before appearing before the judge I would obtain all documents from the FCC to show just cause against the eviction. I'm not sure about the laws in SC, but the entire process should take 30-45 days.

Here are some links about landlord/tenant law in SC:

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5272661_south-carolina-tenant-eviction-procedures.html

http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t27c040.htm

http://www.rentlaw.com/eviction/sceviction.htm

http://www.rentlaw.com/eviction.htm

Don't let the HOA win or let the landlord wilt against the HOA. HOA's are made up of blowhards who having nothing better to do than inflict power whenever they want.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

I still say stand your ground.

Play nice with the landlord and put your dish away, suspend your service for a little bit, and start getting your ducks in a row. Then give it all you got.

They make these laws for a reason. Don't let the HOA push you around.

And a permit to rent is BS. It's your house, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with it. As long as your tenants follow the HOA restrictions that aren't against the law, who cares if it is you or someone paying you to live there?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Play nice with the landlord. Try to back up his backbone. Ask him how the HOA is going to fine him or take legal action against him, as the law is on his side, and the HOA would actually have to challenge the and the FCC in court. If they try to fine him or even threaten him with fines or threaten him from being able to lease/subrent his unit. The HOA board is putting themselves in a very bad spot, and in personal responiblity as HOA incorperation doesn't protect them, when they knowingly and willfully violate the law, and use coercion in the process. The more the threaten the worse postition they are in. Take it down, ask the landlord to comp you the money for the service in rent while working on this issue. File the FCC petition, with HOA, Landlord, and the Property Management company. Then send a letter to the Property management company asking them how they can passively sit by and watch the HOA board vioalte the law, and inform them that since they know of the law, that you will include the Property Managment company in any legal action. Property Management company's are charted with ensureing that HOA's enforce the CCR's and State and Federals laws, correctly. Allowing the HOA to violate the law, is the same as assisting the HOA in violating the law.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The law doesn't always work like it should, or like we think it should... and sometimes you win even if you lose.

I read not too long ago about Bank of America "accidentally" foreclosing on wrong properties. One guy wasn't home, and returned to find himself locked out of his house. Another was a renter who was evicted by the Sheriff even though the landlord had already protested that Bank of America had the wrong property.

Those wronged parties will eventually win in court... but in the meantime, they still got kicked out of their home.

That's what I mean by sometimes losing when you win.

Given this landlord's unwillingness to fight on behalf of his tenant... my personal feeling would be to live with the scenario and look to move as soon as I could. I know that might not be an option for the OP... but I would no longer feel comfortable knowing I had to fight that hard in an uphill battle over something really pretty silly. What happens when/if there is ever a real issue to fight?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Stewart Vernon said:


> The law doesn't always work like it should, or like we think it should... and sometimes you win even if you lose.
> 
> I read not too long ago about Bank of America "accidentally" foreclosing on wrong properties. One guy wasn't home, and returned to find himself locked out of his house. Another was a renter who was evicted by the Sheriff even though the landlord had already protested that Bank of America had the wrong property.
> 
> ...


:rant:
The decision to fight or not, is the OP's choice. Arming him with info though is the right thing to do. His Landord's stance is the biggest issue, and if he doesn't want to fight or move, he should have the landlord pay the ETF.

This is personal to me. I recently had the HOA battle over a OTA, that was called a listening device, and after I worked that out. I was fined for having Xmas decorations on top of my Roof this year. January, I filled to go to court under several different Civil Code laws here in California. April15th of all days, was the court date, and I won 40k from the 4 board members, and 4k out of court from the property managment company. The money was NOT the issue, it was the manner of how the board went about things as well as finding away to go after the board members only instead of the HOA. HOA Board members are only, and I repeat only PROTECTED, if they follow the laws. Violation of a law or in this case several laws, the board members are HELD personally and financially responsible, not the Association.

TARGET the board members. I have one that is moving and all 4 have been removed, for jeopordizing the HOA. I could have won more money, but I agreed with the judge to combine multiple offence's of the same law. This still worked out to my favor of sorts, as after agreeing to combine, the Judge fined them each 5 actual dollars and the rest of the money is punitive. I have lived here since '88 and only in the last 5yrs has the HOA board been a pain, never to me though, until just this last Oct/Nov time frame. 
Never let a HOA get out of hand. For the most part the Boards here have been for the better of the group, just one Prima Dona though ruined the party. Looks like the New board here, will be walking a fine line for awhile, and working for the HOA and not themselves. I may look at South Carolina laws for you, but the purpose and focus is to make sure that you infrom the Board and the PM company that they are and will be held personally responible, since they are Violating the LAW, the comforts of being sheild by incorporation laws, go out the door, once they do that.
:soapbox:
:rant:


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Good work, GrumpyBear. As I said above, sometimes the only way to deal with bullies is to out-bully them. HOA Boards can become a nest of these people.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Don't get me wrong... I'm all for fighting when I'm in the right... and in this case when the OP is in the right.

But the collateral damage in the meantime has to be realized too... and the OP has to decide if the risk of temporary eviction OR an ulcer or the stress of aggravation is worth the eventual win.

I have no doubt in my mind the OP would win... but in the meantime there will be lots of stress and aggravation and the possibility that the HOA will take the dish off his balcony for him... and yes, he can sue them in that case but that will take time too.

My position would be completely different as the owner/landlord. If I'm the owner/landlord I would fight because it directly affects me and I have ground to stand on and can't be evicted while the fight is ongoing. But if the landlord (clearly) isn't willing to take this fight to the HOA... the renter is in a situation where he might have to suffer some bad before coming out the other end of the tunnel when he eventually wins.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

LilGator,
I am a little confused. In trying to search some of this information for you I have come up with some discrepancies. In this thread you state that the Dish is on a tripod on your patio in completely private space. However in this other thread another person named LilGator states that the Dish is on a Balcony.
http://forum.freeadvice.com/condos-...-dish-fully-aware-fcc-prohibition-514279.html
Looking at the Brio Building in Greenville NC on Google Maps, it does not appear that there is much patio space for this multistory building. Can you clarify the discrepancy between these two posts?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

DoyleS said:


> LilGator,
> I am a little confused. In trying to search some of this information for you I have come up with some discrepancies. In this thread you state that the Dish is on a tripod on your patio in completely private space. However in this other thread another person named LilGator states that the Dish is on a Balcony.
> http://forum.freeadvice.com/condos-...-dish-fully-aware-fcc-prohibition-514279.html
> Looking at the Brio Building in Greenville NC on Google Maps, it does not appear that there is much patio space for this multistory building. Can you clarify the discrepancy between these two posts?


He provided a pic:


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Uh Doyle - that is Greenville, SOUTH Carolina, not Greenville, NORTH Carolina


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

I also looked at the link to the Master Deed that was posted in the other post and there is a statement in there that probably precludes you putting a dish on a patio without permission. The Deed clearly states that the Horizontal boundaries of the property are defined by the constructed walls of the condo and that any patio or deck that extends beyond that area are considered Limited Common Space. This phrase probably means that they can regulate a dish on a patio without being in violation of the FCC ruling. Here is a link to that Master Deed. 
http://nhenterprises.com/assets/pdf/The_Brio/Brio Master Deed Part 1.pdf


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

scooper said:


> Uh Doyle - that is Greenville, SOUTH Carolina, not Greenville, NORTH Carolina


It gets more confusing when you start looking up laws, as North and South Carolina seem to have this joint disconnection thing going as well.

I do agree with Stewart, its the OP's choice here. Giving him all the information needed, and then let him do as he wish's. If the OP gives in, and I can see a reasoning for this, I think he should still ask his Landlord to pay the ETF, for making life easier.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

DOH!!! My Bad. What can you expect from someone in California. Looks like the NC was a Typo on my part.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

DoyleS said:


> I also looked at the link to the Master Deed that was posted in the other post and there is a statement in there that probably precludes you putting a dish on a patio without permission. The Deed clearly states that the Horizontal boundaries of the property are defined by the constructed walls of the condo and that any patio or deck that extends beyond that area are considered Limited Common Space. This phrase probably means that they can regulate a dish on a patio without being in violation of the FCC ruling. Here is a link to that Master Deed.
> http://nhenterprises.com/assets/pdf/The_Brio/Brio Master Deed Part 1.pdf


That actually wouldn't hold any water in court. No access to his Balcony, via any common access route. Balcony would be treated as an exclusive use common area.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DoyleS said:


> The Deed clearly states that the Horizontal boundaries of the property are defined by the constructed walls of the condo and that any patio or deck that extends beyond that area are considered Limited Common Space. This phrase probably means that they can regulate a dish on a patio without being in violation of the FCC ruling.


That wakes up a different beast. I'm assuming from the photos and layout that the balcony cannot be accessed from other condos. If so the definition could be challenged. But as common space the HOA has more authority to regulate.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

I think there is still a problem as the Horizontal boundaries are defined by planes of the interior surfaces of the walls which would not include a deck or patio where the dish is located. Those areas seem to be defined as limited common areas. A clever way to define it if you are trying to keep stuff off of decks and patios.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

I'd love to see a copy of their Covenants. Maybe from their web site?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

DoyleS said:


> I think there is still a problem as the Horizontal boundaries are defined by planes of the interior surfaces of the walls which would not include a deck or patio where the dish is located. Those areas seem to be defined as limited common areas. A clever way to define it if you are trying to keep stuff off of decks and patios.


Limited common space, is to cover who has the responsibility for balcony waterproofing because they want to ensure that the decks are properly maintained and waterproofed. The still can't limit what he can do, as there is no access to this area, from any common space area.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Sorry for the confusion- if I've used the term patio, I have meant balcony.

It is indeed only accesible via the door in my living room. It is also a six floor balcony, so good luck walking up to it. I have a hard time believing this could be called anything but an exclusive use area (in regards to OTARD). Is this possible, no matter any "definitions" in the master deed?

Here are all documents I have links to online:

The Brio Rules & Regulations 
The Brio Master Deed Part 1 
The Brio Master Deed Part 2 - Floor Plans
The Brio Master Deed Part 2 - By-Laws 
The Brio Amendment to Master Deed 
The Brio Pool Rules 
The Brio Moving Guidelines 
Fine Policy 
The Brio Reserve Study


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## RTCDude (Feb 3, 2005)

When I first got Dish years ago, I wanted to set it up quickly without having mount the dish onto the roof. Instead I mounted the dish to a 18x18 inch board, weighted it down with bricks in the living room, and shot THROUGH the sliding door glass. The signals were a little low, but worked. I used that for almost three months before I moved the dish to the roof (got tired of the dog knocking the dish out of alignment). You might this trick with your window while your dish is "taken down" instead of suspending your service.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

DoyleS said:


> I think there is still a problem as the Horizontal boundaries are defined by planes of the interior surfaces of the walls which would not include a deck or patio where the dish is located. Those areas seem to be defined as limited common areas. A clever way to define it if you are trying to keep stuff off of decks and patios.


The FCC regs are pretty clear. They can call it anything they want, but if it is only acessible form the residence of the dish owner, then you can put a dish there, maybe with the exception of registered historic properties or true safetey regulations, neither of which seem to come into play in this situation. They did this purposefully to keep associations from changing definitions in an attempt to get around the spirit of the law.


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Petition was sent to the FCC yesterday, with copies going to condo association and association manager. Both of those were attempted today and notices left. Should I bother requesting a redelivery or just wait to see if they go pick them up within the 15 days? Since they were certified, I have receipts proving I sent copies to both.

The FCC should receive the petition tomorrow.

I also was contacted by someone from SBCA.org:



> Having a ban on satellite dishes is in deed a violation of the FCC's OTARD rule. The FCC has ruled that as a renter you have the same protection as a home owner. If you would like, I can draft a letter to HOA on your behalf, indicating that their no dish policy is in violation of the FCC's rule. If this does not get them to rethink their policy, you can file a petition with the FCC.
> 
> Attached are the guidelines for filing a petition with the FCC. Basically, you write a letter to the FCC explaining the situation and include a copy of the master deed, photographs of your satellite dish installation and include contact information for the head of the HOA, include a notarized affidavit and send that to the FCC.
> 
> ...


I'll work with her to have a letter sent from her to the association, manager, and maybe developer as suggested.

Cable installed today, and I am taking down the dish temporarily- reminded of how sucky cable is. A whopping 42 HD channels including premiums, vs 120 HD with Dish Network including premiums. Oh, and even the introductory 6 mos pricing is more than what I've been paying with Dish.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Keep us posted on any developments. This situation has come up numerous times before and it is always good to have current info and resources in knowing how to deal with it.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

LilGator said:


> Petition was sent to the FCC yesterday, with copies going to condo association and association manager. Both of those were attempted today and notices left. Should I bother requesting a redelivery or just wait to see if they go pick them up within the 15 days? Since they were certified, I have receipts proving I sent copies to both.
> 
> The FCC should receive the petition tomorrow.
> 
> ...


No need to have the letters redelivered. You have the receipt that they were delivered and that's as good as service. 
I hope there is no commitment with the cable company. 
It sounds like you've got this thing on the right track to a successful resolution. 
I wish you luck and look forward to "the rest of the story".


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

Just wanted to let everyone know that Lisa at SBCA has been extremely helpful and drafted a letter she will be sending to the association and manager (and maybe developer as well). I thought I might include it here in case it may be of use to someone later down the road:



> Satellite Broadcasting & Communications Association
> Lisa Volpe McCabe
> Director Public Policy & Outreach
> 
> ...


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Sounds like you are on your way. Keep it up!


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Keep up the good work. I almost wish you had a camera to take a picture of Board members when they they get all this information, the petition, the Letter, should be a funny site.

Best thing about this post, is both Direct, and Dish users have rallied around in support.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

GrumpyBear said:


> Best thing about this post, is both Direct, and Dish users have rallied around in support.


Haha yeah when I opened the pictures I almost said something but we need to stick together on this :grin:


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## BenJF3 (Sep 12, 2008)

I reviewed this thread and technically via OTARD, he could mount the antenna via clamps to the railing and have it protrude if he wanted to. I think how he has it is the least obtrusive and I really can't believe the HOA is making an issue out of this.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BenJF3 said:


> I reviewed this thread and technically via OTARD, he could mount the antenna via clamps to the railing and have it protrude if he wanted to. I think how he has it is the least obtrusive and I really can't believe the HOA is making an issue out of this.


"An antenna that extends out beyond the balcony or patio is usually considered to be in a common area that is not within the scope of the rule. Therefore, the rule does not apply to a condominium or rental apartment unit unless the antenna is installed wholly *within* the exclusive use area, such as the balcony or patio."

Mounting on the railing and having it protrude is NOT protected by OTARD.


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## BenJF3 (Sep 12, 2008)

James Long said:


> "An antenna that extends out beyond the balcony or patio is usually considered to be in a common area that is not within the scope of the rule. Therefore, the rule does not apply to a condominium or rental apartment unit unless the antenna is installed wholly *within* the exclusive use area, such as the balcony or patio."
> 
> Mounting on the railing and having it protrude is NOT protected by OTARD.


Thanks for the clarification because I've seen it done this way. Generally, the HOA gave up the fight after presentation of the OTARD document and wasn't as stubborn as LilGator's. So, he could mount to the railing as long as the dish is under the overhang and within the balcony. I was merely pointing out the option because it would keep the antenna more stable for alignment purposes.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

The only thing I might have done different with his tripod would be to mount it on some wood that I could have weighted it down with. He even had it set that putting the legs against the patio door , it was aligned.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BenJF3 said:


> Thanks for the clarification because I've seen it done this way. Generally, the HOA gave up the fight after presentation of the OTARD document and wasn't as stubborn as LilGator's. So, he could mount to the railing as long as the dish is under the overhang and within the balcony. I was merely pointing out the option because it would keep the antenna more stable for alignment purposes.


His tripod arrangement (pictures earlier in thread) kept the dish virtually out of site and certainly within the exclusive use portion of the balcony. It helps that he was on the upper floor (a 2nd floor installation might have more of a sight angle). You can barely tell he has a dish.

The problem seems to be the HOA defining everything outside of the walls of the units as "common" ... including the balconies. The balconies cannot be accessed by other tenants so they should match the FCC's definition of "Exclusive Use".

If this battle is won it will be won based on the reality of OTARD ... not assumptions about what it covers when it doesn't allow everything. Restrictions can still apply.

BTW: The apartment I lived at for a while allowed dishes that were not protected by OTARD. Eastward facing units with a bucket mounted dish setting outside of the unit ... northward facing upper level units with 4x4 wood beams holding a dish far enough out to see over the roof. All sorts of stuff that isn't protected. But all that is gone. They are virtually dish free now.

(They did appropriately ban penetrating mounts such as lag bolts and putting a post in the ground. There were a lot of tie strap mounts and rope - especially with the 4x4 hanging out to the north mounts. All mounts had to be removable without damage to the property and no holes could be drilled.)


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

Could you stick it in some sort of box made out of non RF-blocking material for now? It can't possibly be against your HOA's rules to have a box sitting on your porch(!!!)? They have done fake rocks for yard installations before.

Good luck in your fight with these idiots. I can't believe anyone had an issue with it in the first place, especially since it is almost invisible from the street, AND it's a 1000.4 in great condition. How have people become so stupid that they think that they should force people to subscribe to a crappy TV service while violating federal law?


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## ffemtreed (Jan 30, 2008)

Bigg said:


> Could you stick it in some sort of box made out of non RF-blocking material for now? It can't possibly be against your HOA's rules to have a box sitting on your porch(!!!)? They have done fake rocks for yard installations before.
> 
> Good luck in your fight with these idiots. I can't believe anyone had an issue with it in the first place, especially since it is almost invisible from the street, AND it's a 1000.4 in great condition. How have people become so stupid that they think that they should force people to subscribe to a crappy TV service while violating federal law?


I know in my case there was a back door deal with the local cable company's where pretty much the HOA was guaranteeing a certain amount of customers. In return the cable company pretty much did the groundwork for free in the development. I wasn't ever to really tried to prove that in court but I was ready to fight that battle if need be. All I know if after I sent my letters to everyone there were a lot more dishes getting put up and i even got a thank you letter from another resident. I bet those HOA busybodies there rue the day they told me that I couldn't have my sat dish! The best part is I moved out 3 months later!!!!

PS -- my case was a tad easier because the development was pretty much all single family dwellings with pretty big yards so there was absolutely no dispute over common area's or other technicalities like that.


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

Until you win your battle with the HOA, can you put your dish inside on the tripod and point it through a window or door?

As a resident, you could also campaign to become a member of the board the next time an opening comes up. I'm sure the other board members would love that. 

Also, you may want to remove Lisa's contact information from your previous post. She may not want people from this board contacting her directly and she could get lots of spam from having her e-mail address posted here.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

You didn't read - LilGator are leasing his unit.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

ffemtreed said:


> I know in my case there was a back door deal with the local cable company's where pretty much the HOA was guaranteeing a certain amount of customers. In return the cable company pretty much did the groundwork for free in the development. I wasn't ever to really tried to prove that in court but I was ready to fight that battle if need be. All I know if after I sent my letters to everyone there were a lot more dishes getting put up and i even got a thank you letter from another resident. I bet those HOA busybodies there rue the day they told me that I couldn't have my sat dish! The best part is I moved out 3 months later!!!!
> 
> PS -- my case was a tad easier because the development was pretty much all single family dwellings with pretty big yards so there was absolutely no dispute over common area's or other technicalities like that.


Doesn't the cable company lay their own wires anyways? The developer gives them a conduit, and they pull the wires through?


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Any updates LilGator? 

I had an issue with my HOA and couldn't get it resolved with them, their management company or their lawyer.

So I filed a Petition with the FCC on Tuesday 11/25/09. I received a phone call from the FCC the following week and they mailed a response to the HOA and myself on Friday 12/4/09 -- 9 days after I sent my petition (and that included a 4-day Thanksgiving weekend).

So the FCC was very quick in responding.


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## grog (Jul 3, 2007)

It seems that N&H policy is not the same for all their assets.

http://www.nhenterprises.com/assets/pdf/SugarCreek/Satellite Dish Policy.pdf

http://www.nhenterprises.com/assets/pdf/SugarCreek/scnp.pdf
Look at section #3 "Policy concerning the installation of satellite dishes or antennas".



LilGator said:


> Sorry for the confusion- if I've used the term patio, I have meant balcony.
> 
> It is indeed only accesible via the door in my living room. It is also a six floor balcony, so good luck walking up to it. I have a hard time believing this could be called anything but an exclusive use area (in regards to OTARD). Is this possible, no matter any "definitions" in the master deed?
> 
> ...


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## LilGator (Dec 17, 2009)

trh said:


> Any updates LilGator?
> 
> I had an issue with my HOA and couldn't get it resolved with them, their management company or their lawyer.
> 
> ...


Actually, yes! Just a few minutes ago, getting emails from SBCA, FCC and my landlord informing me that the association manager has dropped the request (for removing the dish), and the SBCA and FCC are working with the association to rework their restriction into something ... actually legal.

The FCC advised the association manager that because it is very hard to actually amend governing documents, an association can adopt a policy for antennas that comports with federal law and be sure that it is distributed to all residents. I'm liking this suggestion, surely resulting in some more dishes on the south side of the building soon.

What could have been 1 lonely near invisible dish on the top floor will likely multiply into a few more. :lol:

The pressure put on the association by both SBCA/FCC were a perfect combo, and both were extremely helpful, and fast responding to both me and getting in contact with the association.

Looks like it's a closed deal from my standpoint. I want to thank everyone for their help, pointers, suggestions and advice throughout this thread. It's fantastic having a community like this that will reach out and give someone a hand.



grog said:


> It seems that N&H policy is not the same for all their assets.
> 
> http://www.nhenterprises.com/assets/pdf/SugarCreek/Satellite Dish Policy.pdf
> 
> ...


Interesting indeed! Thanks for pointing that out, I forwarded that information to both contacts at FCC/SBCA- perhaps N&H's other communities will be forced rewrites of their current rules.

Neighbor approvals, invisible from the road, applications and no "grandfathering"? Yeesh. They made progress from the flat out restriction, but they have a long way to go still.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Make sure to wave at the board members with a friendly smile, and genuine smile.
Nothing like beating a bully, and then being nice to them.

I hope you and your landlord don't have any problems, now that the board has been forced to obey the law.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

GrumpyBear said:


> Make sure to wave at the board members with a friendly smile, and genuine smile.
> Nothing like beating a bully, and then being nice to them.
> 
> *I hope you and your landlord don't have any problems, now that the board has been forced to obey the law*.


Hope those board doesn't have any person with 'pit-bull' type of attitude.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

Awesome news! Just hope that there weren't any bridges burned unintentionally between you and the landlord. I also hope the same for the landlord/HOA.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

LilGator said:


> and the SBCA and FCC are working with the association to rework their restriction into something ... actually legal.
> 
> I'm liking this suggestion, surely resulting in some more dishes on the south side of the building soon.


First, congratulations on being able to keep your dish. But perhaps you should let the manager know there are easy-to-retrofit solutions to have one community dish per building so that there aren't a bunch of dishes on balconies. Plus it would let the north side residents in on the party as well.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Time to start passing out the refer a friend for billing credits flyers to all the neighbors

(j/k) 

Congrats on the win!


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

P Smith said:


> You didn't read - LilGator are leasing his unit.


Actually, according to the bylaws, any resident (not just owners) can serve on his HOA board. He would have to get voted in by the owners (renters can't vote).


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

jsk said:


> Actually, *according to the bylaws*, any resident (not just owners) can serve on his HOA board. He would have to get voted in by the owners (renters can't vote).


Please point to the page and the chapter.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

jsk said:


> Actually, according to the bylaws, any resident (not just owners) can serve on his HOA board. He would have to get voted in by the owners (renters can't vote).


He would 1st need to get at least a proxy from his landlord, and in most states even with a proxy he can't vote, at owner meetings or be voted onto the board. Most states do not allow for a proxy anymore

Most require a Power of Attorney, for anybody to represent a owner. A owner can give another owner a proxy, but most states do not allow for a non owner to represent an owner without a Power of Attorney. I don't think that this owner wanted LilGator to represent him.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

Way to go LilGator:hurah:


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

GrumpyBear said:


> He would 1st need to get at least a proxy from his landlord, and in most states even with a proxy he can't vote, at owner meetings or be voted onto the board. Most states do not allow for a proxy anymore
> 
> Most require a Power of Attorney, for anybody to represent a owner. A owner can give another owner a proxy, but most states do not allow for a non owner to represent an owner without a Power of Attorney. I don't think that this owner wanted LilGator to represent him.


But that doesn't necessarily mean that the HOA's own bylaws require someone on their board to be an owner. It may also allow for residents to serve. Who would they rather have: a disinterested owner who just rents it out, or someone who is a member of the community being governed?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Bigg said:


> But that doesn't necessarily mean that the HOA's own bylaws require someone on their board to be an owner. It may also allow for residents to serve. Who would they rather have: a disinterested owner who just rents it out, or someone who is a member of the community being governed?


A Owner, rather disinterested or not, is an THE OWNER. You can't have a Tenant represent an Owner of a property, unless the owner says so. NO Bylaws, for any HOA, in any state could allow for a NON MEMBER, to be on the board. Laws of Incorporation which HOA's are, are for Members and/or a members lawful representative only, not just some bystander that wants to join the party with no vested interest. Boards are elected from the Membership to represent the Membership.

Most states have done away with proxies, for a non member representing a member, and require a Power of Attorney instead, for a non member to represent a Member. The reasons are multifold on why's, no reason to go into it here. 
Lil Gator, stuck to his guns, got the right people engaged, and all is well.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

GrumpyBear said:


> A Owner, rather disinterested or not, is an THE OWNER. You can't have a Tenant represent an Owner of a property, unless the owner says so. NO Bylaws, for any HOA, in any state could allow for a NON MEMBER, to be on the board. Laws of Incorporation which HOA's are, are for Members and/or a members lawful representative only, not just some bystander that wants to join the party with no vested interest. Boards are elected from the Membership to represent the Membership.
> 
> Most states have done away with proxies, for a non member representing a member, and require a Power of Attorney instead, for a non member to represent a Member. The reasons are multifold on why's, no reason to go into it here.
> Lil Gator, stuck to his guns, got the right people engaged, and all is well.


Maybe, maybe not. The answer is probably somewhere in those legal documents linked earlier in the thread, but I'm not about to go digging through them all.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Bigg said:


> Maybe, maybe not. The answer is probably somewhere in those legal documents linked earlier in the thread, but I'm not about to go digging through them all.


All You need to do is read up on, what a HOA is. Home *OWNER* Association's vary from state to state, one thing that is consistant though is the OWNERSHIP part.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Bigg said:


> Maybe, maybe not. The answer is probably somewhere in those legal documents linked earlier in the thread, but I'm not about to go digging through them all.


I think you must retract your unbaked proposal.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Congrats Lil Gator on your win. I think taking the measured and methodical approach that you did was clearly the correct way to address this and as a result, the association recognized that their version of NIMBY would not stand the test.


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