# Dish Network Tech Chat 02/13/06 - Recap



## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

DISH Network Tech Forum - 2/13/2006, 6:00pm - 7:00pm PST

First I'd just like to thank all other Moderators on DBSTalk.com that have done these in the past. I never realized how much work it takes to do one of these recaps. Thanks guys.

Hosted by: 
Mark Jackson, President EchoStar Technologies
Dan Minnick, Vice President Engineering

Agenda for the forum:
* Echo X
* HD Receivers
* PocketDISH Updates
* ITV - Interactive Television
* DISH on Demand Updates
* Bob Howell from Winegard
* Trivia Giveaways
* Q&A

Echo X:
----------
Echo X is being launched by Sea Launch

They showed pictures of the facility, and the Satellite in its "shroud", then towing it out to the ship to mate it with the rocket.

Then they showed it being loaded on an old oil rig. It has been towed out right to equator, where the earths rotation helps you launch, making it require a lower payload, and saves money. Sea Launch has a website with more information.

Hoping to launch on Wednesday, 2/15/2006. This will be EchoStar's, 2nd Sea Launch.

HD Receivers:
-----------------
They have 2 new models, ViP211 and ViP611

ViP211
MPEG-4 HD Receiver
Single Satellite Tuner + 1 OTA Tuner
2 Day EPG Guide
DISH Home 
Parental Locks
IR Remote
Outputs: HDMI, Component, Optical Audio, S-Video, 1 Set RCA, Channel 3/4 Modulated out
USB 2.0 and Ethernet for future features.

ViP622 Features
First MPEG4 DVR box
Dual Satellite Tuners + 1 OTA Tuner
Dual TV box (2 different TVs, 1 HD, 1SD)
9 day EPG
Enhanced guide (3hrs programming on one screen)
DISH on Demand supported
Outputs: HDMI, Component, Optical Audio, S-Video, 2 Sets RCA, 
One stereo agile output to feed TV1 and TV2 on separate channels
USB 2.0
Ethernet for future features.

FYI: For those of you that saw the picture, it was a mirror image or what the back really looks like in other pictures posted so far.

*** ViP622 giveaway ***
Question: What is the latest specification of USB 2.0 throughput in Megabits?

HD Programming and Upgrade Offers Update:
---------------------------------------------------------
Brought in Steve Smith Vice President, Product Marketing, and Leanna Sultan, Vice President, Customer Retention.

Current (Old) Offering: 6 HD channels, + option to buy 10 VOOM channels and HBO and Showtime if you subscribe to those packages.

New Offering:
All channels in the old offering, plus
VOOM channels, now at 15 (5 new VOOM channels)
Added ESPN2HD and UniversalHD
Now have a total of 23 channels of HD programming
1700 Hours a week of HD, 250 Hours a day.	
5 sports channels
5 movie channels
7 entertainment channels
6 news and lifestyle channels

Prices:
DishHD Bronze $49.99 per month (AT60 + HD)
DishHD Silver $59.99 per month (AT120 + HD)
DishHD Gold $69.99 per month (AT180 + HD)
DishHD Platinum $99.99 per month (Everything Pak + HD)
(Add locals to any package for an additional $5.00 per month)

$5.00 local price covers SD AND HD where available.

Looking to bring locals to 50 markets in the US (Did not specify timeframe).
HD Locals already launched in New York and LA. Plans to launch in Minneapolis, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, Denver, Nashville, and Atlanta during Q1 2006.

Existing Customer Offers:
--------------------------------

All DISH Network Solutions Includes:
* Leased ViP Series Receiver
* State-of-the-Art Dish Antenna (if applicable) 
* Standard Professional Installation

If you need HD for the first time:

ViP211:
Lease Upgrade Fee: $49
Standard Professional Installation (Includes Dish Antenna if applicable): $49
Total Cost: $98

ViP622:
Lease Upgrade Fee and Standard Professional Installation (Includes Dish Antenna if applicable): $299

If you already have a DISH HD Receiver:

For DISH 811/6000 Users:
Swap for a ViP211: Lease upgrade fee (including Installation): $49
* Swapping, requires the return of existing receiver.

For DISH DVR-921/942 Users:
Swap for a ViP622: Lease upgrade fee (including Installation): $99
* Must wait until April 1st, otherwise cost is $299 ($200 rebate offer begins on April 1st)
* Swapping, requires the return of existing receiver.

PocketDISH Updates:
--------------------------

What is PocketDISH? It's Portable DVR, with 4", 7", or 2.2" screens, up to 40 hours of recording space.

RecordLINK, uses technology called XDS. It's like hooking up a VCR to your non-hard disk based STB (Set Top Box). Basically turns your STB + PocketDISH like a DVR. The STB controls your PocketDISH. Support reoccurring timers, and trick modes. Available on majority of the STBs

Transfer rate on 942 and 622 using USB2.0, one hour of content takes about 5 minutes.
Coming Soon: Transfer rate on 522 and 625 using USB1.0, one hour of content taking about 30 minutes (available 1st week in March)

Questions:
------------

Martin - The FCC is requiring all must carries on one dish. Will that requirement be met?
ANSWER: June 1st is the deadline, and will meet that. (Technical difficulty with mikes, moving on)

Jody - The 510 records differently than my 942, please explain why.? 
ANSWER: Could be because of time based recording (510) vs NBR (Name Based Recording) (942). They went on to explain NBR..

Jason - What is the status of a new nationwide Dish Network Broadband? Is it still going to be offered? 
ANSWER: Couldn't go public with any information right now. Working hard. Then mentioned their partnership with at&t (formally SBC) for bundled services including broadband.

Steve - On the Vip211, local mapdown, and what is HD Priority? 
ANSWER: This means Local HD will take priority on the mapdown instead of the SD channel in the program guide.

*** Contest Line is not working tonight, call regular number to answer trivia question ***

What is the status of putting channel 100 on a DISH DVR-921 receiver? 
ANSWER: Couldn't answer the question, would have to look into it. Then said, upgrade to a 622 for $99 to get this and all the new programming and features.

John: When are 121 local channels going to be switched over to the 119 Sat location?
ANSWER: After launch of Echo X, additional capacity at 110, deployed 45 - 60 days later, then migrated to 110 slot, around June 1st timeframe.

Candy: Just got a ViP211 and a Dish1000 in Pittsburgh, why is my 129 like 80% and 119 and 110 are like 100%. Tech said 129 is lower than the rest so he put a 2nd single dish that is not tuned in right?
ANSWER: Pittsburgh, 129 is further west, lower look angle, tech may have seen some obstructions, which necessitated a 2nd Dish installation to get a good signal. 80% is not a bad signal strength on 129.

Interactive TV Update:
---------------------------
Very energetic Director of Sales, Interactive TV, Scott Higgins. All decked out for the Olympics, screaming about a gold medal.
Mentioned that DISH is providing over 200 hours of Olympics, can go to channel 100 and see the NBC showcase with all NBC feeds. Mentioned NBC HD Highlights channel. He then showed that on the top of the showcase you can select a banner and get up to the minute stats on the Olympics, detailing what is going to be shown, up to date medal count. Also, there is a Team USA report, About Torino, etc &#8230;

*** Trivia Update: Winner: Tim from Florida: Correct answer is 480 Mb/s for USB2.0 throughput ***

DISH on Demand update:

Dish's Video on Demand Service. Currently Offered on ViP622 and DISH DVR-625. Coming in March (maybe early March) will be offered on the DISH 508, DISH 510. In early April on the DISH Player-DVR-522.

When you press the DVR button you'll have the option for "My Recordings" for your existing DVR events or "Movies and More" for DISH on Demand. You can also press DVR twice to go straight to your recordings.

No waiting for a show, it's on demand.

*** Another Giveaway: PocketDISH AV500E***
Question: Which 2 PocketDISH models support the RecordLINK feature?

Off-Air Antennas:
----------------------
ViP211 and ViP622 models support off-air antennas for HD/Digital reception. In some markets you will need off-air antennas for local HD channels. They introduced Bob Howell, Director of OTA/Winegard to talk about OTA (Over the Air) antennas.

Basics of antenna propagation:
Omni-Directional Antennas: Propagation pattern is 360 degrees. Used in the situation when you have towers in multiple directions
Bi-Directional Antennas: Propagation pattern is front and back (figure 8). Used in the situation when you have antennas in 2 directions.
Directional Antennas: Propagation pattern is front only (Yagi Type). Used in a situation when you have antennas in a single direction.

Choosing the right Antenna:
* Determine frequencies
- Channels 2 - 13 are VHF
- Channels 14 - 69 are UHF
* Distance between broadcast towers = antenna beamwidth
* Determine distance to the broadcast tower
Websites for Assistance:
* www.antennaweb.org - Antenna Selection
* www.checkhd.com - Local digital/HD programming

www.antennaweb.org:
* You can enter your address and submit it.
* This will in turn return a list of digital channels in your area. It color codes the channels to help you find the right size antenna. It also gives you details on the channels, i.e. call signs, compass, distance and frequency.
* The color code chart indicates the type/size of antenna you need to purchase. (Personal note, antennaweb.org tends to error on the side of caution for antenna size. I personally use a much smaller antenna than they recommended.)
* Showed more detail on Call Sign, Channel, Compass Orientation, Miles from house, Frequency assignment.
* What is difference between Channel and Frequency? Channel is assigned based on the analog channel to make it easy for consumers, i.e. the digital/HD version of analog channel 2 is 2.1 which the actual channel frequency could be 34. The tuner will automatically map this information for you.
* Site also gives you a street level map showing the direction of the transmit towers and what channels they are.
* Then showed different maps with different locations that would require the various antenna types.

checkhd.com:
* Screenshot of local stations
* Can also give you TV guide listings for you local channels

(Another personal note: If you need assistance with OTA reception in your area, check AVSForums and find the HDTV forum for your market, they are very helpful. The Seattle OTA forum helped me tremendously with picking out and setting up my antenna.)

They noted that on the ViP622 you can record up to 3 things at once if one is an OTA channel. They also update the EPG with your OTA channels where available.

*** Winner: Brian: Answer: PocketDISH 500 and 700 are the 2 models that support the recordLINK feature ***

Questions Again:
---------------------

Tim - Do older ARCHOS products work with DISH receivers?
ANSWER: Not with the fast transfer option. DISH installed a separate chip in their models to support their fast transfer and encryption. Then Mark got "waved off" and said you need to have a newer PocketDISH device. Not sure what the final answer was here. Maybe someone else got it.

Tom 1st question - I have a 921, and if I wait until the rebate starts, and want to upgrade to the 622. Do I have to return the 921?
ANSWER: If you want the $200.00 rebate, yes you have to return the 921.

Tom, 2nd question - The 622 is leased, if there are any issues, does he get a replacement?
ANSWER: All receivers have a 1 year warranty, doesn't matter if it's leased or owned. If you want longer coverage you need to enroll in a warranty program. Digital Home Protection Plan, for after 1 year. Cost is $5.99 per month. You get reduced price tech visit, free dish mover, and a reduced RMA cost.

Tom, 3rd question - Will his current switches support the 622?
ANSWER: Since he already has a 921, yes all those switches will work.

John 1st question - On the ViP622 is there a monthly recording fee?
ANSWER: Yes, it's the $5.98 DVR fee

John 2nd question - Do you still need 2 dishes for SD and HD?
ANSWER: Depends, in most cases one will do, but sometimes 2.

John 3rd question - Currently receiving the Chicago SD distants, will he get the Chicago HD distants?
ANSWER: Since they are distants, there are different rules for Digital vs. Analog so not necessarily. If he lived in the Chicago DMA then he would get them.

Lonnie 1st question - Has an 811 with a single coax feeding it. Can he run the ViP622 with a single coax?
ANSWER: Yes, with the upgrade you'll get a new LNB (Dish Pro Plus) which can feed both tuners with the Dish Pro Plus separator.

Lonnie 2nd Question - Can he upgrade for $299?
ANSWER: Yes at anytime.

Info on the existing HD offers again: Offer is only good for like receivers. 811/6000 -> ViP211. 921/942 -> ViP622. Also, you need to decide which receiver is best for you. DISH is only allowing for one receiver swap out in a given period of time.

That period of time however was not mentioned.

End of Chat

Next Chat is a Charlie Chat, Monday March 13, 2006 9:00 PM EST, Channel 101


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Excellent Job Rob!!! Way to keep the tradition going!!


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## Mike Johnson (Jan 16, 2005)

Thanks, Rob! Outstanding recap.


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## Redster (Jan 14, 2004)

Very nice job Rob. With recaps like that, I don't need to watch. Thanks for your time and efforts.


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## cpufixer1 (Jun 10, 2003)

When I trade my owned 921 in and now I lease a Vip622, is there a monthly fee for leasing ?


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

I would also like to add my appreciation to Rob for doing the recap. Great work and thanks!


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## mwsmith2 (Nov 15, 2004)

cpufixer1 said:


> When I trade my owned 921 in and now I lease a Vip622, is there a monthly fee for leasing ?


Yes. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a lease. 

And YES, absolutely excellent writeup. Made the whole 921 --> 622 upgrade path completely clear. Kinda stinks that I gotta send in my 921 though...i was wanting to give that to my parents. 

Michael


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## bavaria72 (Jun 10, 2004)

Way to go Rob. Great recap. Thanks!


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

cpufixer1 said:


> When I trade my owned 921 in and now I lease a Vip622, is there a monthly fee for leasing ?


NO!!! As long it is your primary receiver, the lease fee is included in your monthly programming pkg charge. See the thread in the HD section in regards to the details from E* for the upgrade.


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## cyclone27 (Feb 1, 2006)

Did they mention if there will be an additional monthly fee for DISH on Demand or are the programs on there just PPV?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

cpufixer1 said:


> When I trade my owned 921 in and now I lease a Vip622, is there a monthly fee for leasing ?


If it's your only receiver the lease fee is part of the DishHD package price ... if it is a second receiver the lease fee replaces the 'additional receiver fee'.
The $5 'additional tuner fee' for not having a phone line will apply.
The $5.98 per DVR fee also applies to the ViP-622.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

cyclone27 said:


> Did they mention if there will be an additional monthly fee for DISH on Demand or are the programs on there just PPV?


No monthy fee.
Movies are rented for a specific time period and cannot be saved for future viewing.
Personally, I'll rely on PPV and movie channels.


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## rolodoc (Dec 2, 2005)

James Long said:


> If it's your only receiver the lease fee is part of the DishHD package price ... if it is a second receiver the lease fee replaces the 'additional receiver fee'.
> The $5 'additional tuner fee' for not having a phone line will apply.
> The $5.98 per DVR fee also applies to the ViP-622.


I know this information is correct under DHA plan. I think there were posts of people upgrading to the vip622 and reported the upgrade took them out of the DHA plan and the lease fee applied even to the first receiver. Is this correct?


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## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

rolodoc said:


> I know this information is correct under DHA plan. I think there were posts of people upgrading to the vip622 and reported the upgrade took them out of the DHA plan and the lease fee applied even to the first receiver. Is this correct?


It's looking like this may have been due to a billing error for me. It's fixed for now. We'll see what happens next month.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rolodoc said:


> I know this information is correct under DHA plan. I think there were posts of people upgrading to the vip622 and reported the upgrade took them out of the DHA plan and the lease fee applied even to the first receiver. Is this correct?


The information we are getting from E* says that the terms I gave are correct.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

rolodoc said:


> I know this information is correct under DHA plan. I think there were posts of people upgrading to the vip622 and reported the upgrade took them out of the DHA plan and the lease fee applied even to the first receiver. Is this correct?


The way I look at it... either way would work for me.

Right now, I am on DHP (the original)... and my DHP package price is $5 higher than the regular price for AT180 because it includes the first receiver lease + the DHP warranty service.

IF when I upgrade to DishHD Gold I am removed from the DHP plan... then either my bill would actually go down $5 if it is included in the posted new package prices OR I would see a $5 fee added for my first receiver.

The net is either I save money or I pay relatively the same, not including the otherwise increased cost of the new package.

As long as they get the bill right, and I'll double-check it when the time comes, then I figure I can't lose either way.


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

HDMe said:


> ...I figure I can't lose either way.


You're tempting the satellite gods, my friend. :lol:


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## cebbigh (Feb 27, 2005)

Great job, Rob. Also found it interesting that they mentioned on the tech chat that going to 2 dishes was useful in some areas to solidify signal on 110, 119, 129. That's definitely what I'm going to do now. Lots of really good OTA info (especially for newbies). Adding the links was a nice touch.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

The part I thought was the biggest kick-in-the-pants was the same one year warranty on the receiver no matter if you own or lease it! It's their box, if it breaks I'll just send it back I guess. Now, I know that someone will point out that if you lease a car and it breaks you have to pay to have it fixed, but there's a big difference between a $20K + car and a <$1K receiver. The biggest being that if you have cable and you lease their box(es) service calls and replacements are free!


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Sorry Rob, forgot to mention the excellent work on the recap, thanks!!


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

mwsmith2 said:


> Yes. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a lease.
> ...


I love it when sarcasm comes 'round and bites ya.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Very good job on the recap Rob.

I thought this months' Tech Forum was one the best that DISH has had in quite a while. Its nice to see that they are moving back to the way things used to be -- very informative with very knowledgeable guests and staff.


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## Beer Kahuna (Mar 25, 2005)

> Tom 1st question - I have a 921, and if I wait until the rebate starts, and want to upgrade to the 622. Do I have to return the 921?
> ANSWER: If you want the $200.00 rebate, yes you have to return the 921.


This question doesn't state if this was an owned or leassed unit (did they even lease 921's???). I paid $699 for my 942 which I want to move to my bedroom and put the 622 in my main room. Is there a _*definitive answer from Dish *_ answering the question if one would still qualify for the rebate if you planned on keeping your 942? If I can't get the rebate and still keep my 942, I won't wait to call. Even if I call today, I still probably won't have one by April 1st.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

Ok, I've read the 622's description several times to make sure I'm not missing something blindingly obvious... But did they mention the size of the hard drive?

...and can you hook up external drives to increase capacity?


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

If I rember correctly you have to return the 922 in order to get the $200 rebate


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I believe the last mention (not on the Tech Forum) was 30hrs HD 200 SD - or something "huge".

Apparently the only external device supported for now is the Pocketdish. Good to see that 211s and other non DVRs can record to PocketDish.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tomcrown1 said:


> If I rember correctly you have to return the 922 in order to get the $200 rebate


921 or 942 ... no other receiver earns you the rebate. No return, no rebate.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

djlong said:


> Ok, I've read the 622's description several times to make sure I'm not missing something blindingly obvious... But did they mention the size of the hard drive?
> 
> ...and can you hook up external drives to increase capacity?


I distinctly recall it was 5 terabyte. How much did you want to increase the capacity?


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

djlong said:


> Ok, I've read the 622's description several times to make sure I'm not missing something blindingly obvious... But did they mention the size of the hard drive?
> 
> ...and can you hook up external drives to increase capacity?


I want to say it's a 320GB drive, and part of it is reserved for DISH on Demand, specs I've read say you get up 30 hrs of HD and up to 200 hrs of SD. Basically 5 hrs or 50GB more usable space than a 942.


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

Beer Kahuna said:


> This question doesn't state if this was an owned or leassed unit (did they even lease 921's???). I paid $699 for my 942 which I want to move to my bedroom and put the 622 in my main room. Is there a _*definitive answer from Dish *_ answering the question if one would still qualify for the rebate if you planned on keeping your 942? If I can't get the rebate and still keep my 942, I won't wait to call. Even if I call today, I still probably won't have one by April 1st.


They clearly indicated that IF you want that $200.00 you have to return either a 921 or 942 receiver. They didn't care if it was leased or owned. One question was asked about having to return a 921 and they said yes you have to return it. I don't believe any 921s were leased, all are owned.


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## Beer Kahuna (Mar 25, 2005)

> 921 or 942 ... no other receiver earns you the rebate. No return, no rebate.


James (and Rob),

I know only the 921 and 942 units qualify. But, I got 2 different answers from seperate Tech CSR's. The first one said I had to return my owned unit and the second one said I should wait until April 1st *so I qualified for the rebate and since I own my 942, I'd get to keep that, too.*

So which is it? What have other 622 customers been *told by Dish*? Please no speculation or "I heard such and such". I'm at a loss to understand why a *lease customer *would get the same rebate as a person who *owns* theirs if in both cases the unit must be returned..


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## liferules (Aug 14, 2005)

Rob Glasser said:


> I want to say it's a 320GB drive, and part of it is reserved for DISH on Demand, specs I've read say you get up 30 hrs of HD and up to 200 hrs of SD.


Yeah, I've seen the pictures of the hours on the recorder...does it really keep track of the SD vs. HD hours? What if I want to record more than 30 hours HD and none SD? Will it allow me, or is the SD partition reserved only for SD?


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

liferules said:


> Yeah, I've seen the pictures of the hours on the recorder...does it really keep track of the SD vs. HD hours? What if I want to record more than 30 hours HD and none SD? Will it allow me, or is the SD partition reserved only for SD?


Doesn't matter. The drive is only so big so whether you fill it up with 30 hrs of HD or 200 hrs of SD, those are the limits. The drive is not partitioned to allow x space for HD and x space for SD. As you record either HD or SD the available space on the drive will be reduced and the receiver will update the hours available. It basically works out to be 10GB per hour of HD and 1.5GB per hour of SD.


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## sbuko (Jan 10, 2006)

Beer Kahuna said:


> If I can't get the rebate and still keep my 942, I won't wait to call. Even if I call today, I still probably won't have one by April 1st.


My thoughts exactly. I have an "owned" 942 that I am going to keep since from all accounts I will have to turn it in if I use the rebate.

I ordered a 622 last night for $299 and tried my best to bypass the install process and just get the 622 shipped to me. No dice.

Anyway, my install date is March 30.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The word Mike got from E* and the Tech Chat comments echo the same thing - no return = no rebate.

As far as the hours ... it's an estimate of what could fit. If you use it all for HD you get 30 hours of HD. If you use it all for SD you get 200 hours of SD. If you use if for music channels you will get many more hours of music.


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

liferules said:


> Yeah, I've seen the pictures of the hours on the recorder...does it really keep track of the SD vs. HD hours? What if I want to record more than 30 hours HD and none SD? Will it allow me, or is the SD partition reserved only for SD?


As you record content Dish DVRs keep track of what is free, it's a combination of SD and HD. You can have 30 hours of HD OR 200 hours of SD, OR a combination of the 2, it's all dynamic, nothing has to be pre-allocated.

For example if you have 2 hours of HD recorded the DVR will show you have approx. 28 hours of HD left or 186 hours 20 minutes left of SD, or something like that. It's not an exact science but it's close. Basically you get 1 hour of HD for every 6 - 7 hours of SD. You add an hour of SD recordings, your SD total goes down an hour, your HD total left goes down around 10 minutes or so.


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

James Long said:


> The word Mike got from E* and the Tech Chat comments echo the same thing - no return = no rebate.


Everything I've seen indicates this as well.

Even that question that was quoted from the chat about having to return a 921 backs that up. I don't believe there were any 921 leases, therefore they are all owned, and Dish's VP of Customer Retention told that customer they'd have to return their 921 to get the rebate.


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## alacazam (Oct 8, 2004)

I have a question and hope this is the correct forum. I just called Dish to Upgrade my 811 to a 211 and was told they had to change my packages to upgrade to the 211. I currently have the 120 with locals, HD Package and HBO, Cinamax and Starz. Why am I being required to change to the Bronze or Silver package to get the 811 to 211 swap? They DID say I could swap my 811 to the 211 for the $49.00 fee but I don't like the package change idea. Anyone have any ideas about why this is being required or if there is a way around the package change?


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Rob Glasser said:


> Everything I've seen indicates this as well.
> 
> Even that question that was quoted from the chat about having to return a 921 backs that up. I don't believe there were any 921 leases, therefore they are all owned, and Dish's VP of Customer Retention told that customer they'd have to return their 921 to get the rebate.


well this isn't good news. I have a 921/501/301, and I'd like to swap the 501/301 potentially, though maybe only 1 so i stay on the DHP program  I wanted to keep the 921 until HD locals are up in DC, because I want the extra OTA recording ability. This isn't a good deal. I was also told by a tech I could trade the 501 for the 622 and get the rebate since i have a 921. this is a bummer.

The only other problem I have with this "must trade in 921" comment, is what was listed before that in the chat:


> For DISH DVR-921/942 Users:
> Swap for a ViP622: Lease upgrade fee (including Installation): $99
> * Must wait until April 1st, otherwise cost is $299 ($200 rebate offer begins on April 1st)
> * If Swapping, requires the return of existing receiver.


this comment specifically states "IF swapping" it doesn't say "when swapping" or "swap" only. It says "if", and this implies there are non swap possibilities. Statements like this make it seem possible to have a 921/942 and "swap" a different receiver which would then have to be returned or nothing would need to be returned. The other problem with "if swapping" is it started by saying this was a "Swap for a vip622" promotion. Someone needs to learn how to write proper English statements  And like the others, if this is true, I'll have to take a 622 straight up, which is bogus, unless Dish will allow a later $99 upgrade in the future after HD locals are out.

this is driving me nuts. but really, the only thing driving me nuts is that i wanted to have my 921 as an extra OTA recorder until HD locals were up in DC. errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr this is so frustrating, because it's not like i can get mad, it's stil only $99 for a 622, but I'll still be stuck with 1 HD recording option for a while


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## alacazam (Oct 8, 2004)

Also forgot to mention that they said I would have to enter into an 18 month contract to get the 211 also. I am currently NOT under any contract as I have completed my obligation as far as contracts with Dish.


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## LtMunst (Aug 24, 2005)

alacazam said:


> I have a question and hope this is the correct forum. I just called Dish to Upgrade my 811 to a 211 and was told they had to change my packages to upgrade to the 211. I currently have the 120 with locals, HD Package and HBO, Cinamax and Starz. Why am I being required to change to the Bronze or Silver package to get the 811 to 211 swap? They DID say I could swap my 811 to the 211 for the $49.00 fee but I don't like the package change idea. Anyone have any ideas about why this is being required or if there is a way around the package change?


The new HD packages contain all the added MPEG4 channels. Dish does not want to be sending out the new MPEG4 receivers to people who don't want the added channels. Unless you want the new channels, there really is no point to swapping an 811 for 211.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

I believe the Bronze package is what you have right now just called a different name.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Rob Glasser said:


> As you record content Dish DVRs keep track of what is free, it's a combination of SD and HD. You can have 30 hours of HD OR 200 hours of SD, OR a combination of the 2, it's all dynamic, nothing has to be pre-allocated.
> 
> For example if you have 2 hours of HD recorded the DVR will show you have approx. 28 hours of HD left or 186 hours 20 minutes left of SD, or something like that. It's not an exact science but it's close. Basically you get 1 hour of HD for every 6 - 7 hours of SD. You add an hour of SD recordings, your SD total goes down an hour, your HD total left goes down around 10 minutes or so.


Also. remember this is an approximate estimate and in the past it is been a very generous approximate estimate. Dish's MPEG4/MPEG2 is variable bit rate so the actually disk space consumed by an hour of content will vary depending on parameters used for the MPEG2/MPEG4 compression.

The numbers should used a general indication of the amount of recording time left and should not be expected to be an accurate guage of recording time left.


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

Rogueone said:


> this comment specifically states "IF swapping" it doesn't say "when swapping" or "swap" only. It says "if", and this implies there are non swap possibilities.


Sorry, this is a typo on my part. That statement came from a graphic on the screen about the ViP211 which showed the first time HD customer and an exisiting 811. The If swapping comment was for existing 811 users.

Then they showed the 921/942 -> 622 upgrade offer. The If Swapping part was not on the screen if I remembered correctly, but they verbally said you'd be swapping the 921/942 for the 622.

I'll go edit my post now.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

alacazam said:


> I have a question and hope this is the correct forum. I just called Dish to Upgrade my 811 to a 211 and was told they had to change my packages to upgrade to the 211. I currently have the 120 with locals, HD Package and HBO, Cinamax and Starz. Why am I being required to change to the Bronze or Silver package to get the 811 to 211 swap? They DID say I could swap my 811 to the 211 for the $49.00 fee but I don't like the package change idea. Anyone have any ideas about why this is being required or if there is a way around the package change?


Since the only real reason to upgrade to a ViP211 from an 811 receiver would be to get the new channels... why would you want to swap receivers and not change your channel package?

You can keep your 811 and keep your current packages as they are now... If you upgrade to a ViP211 they want you to get the new package OR pay some kind of penalty fee ($6 or so I think) if you don't... and you won't be able to order the old HD package as it no longer exists.

Current customers get the choice to stay the same or upgrade. New customers get the new stuff by default.


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

LtMunst said:


> The new HD packages contain all the added MPEG4 channels. Dish does not want to be sending out the new MPEG4 receivers to people who don't want the added channels. Unless you want the new channels, there really is no point to swapping an 811 for 211.


I can think of a very good reason for wanting to swap for a new MPEG4 box. To get better reliability. Maybe not so much for the 811 to 211 swap but definately for the 921 to 622 swap.

Of course, that is assuming that the 211 and the 622 will be more reliable than the 811 and 921. That's a pretty big IF! I read in the 211 support forum that there are some serious problems with it already.


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## UTFAN (Nov 12, 2005)

Rob Glasser said:


> Everything I've seen indicates this as well.
> 
> Even that question that was quoted from the chat about having to return a 921 backs that up. I don't believe there were any 921 leases, therefore they are all owned, and Dish's VP of Customer Retention told that customer they'd have to return their 921 to get the rebate.


Anyone know what DISH is doing with the receivers turned in for rebate? This is one of the sticking points with us. We paid $1,000 for our 921 exactly two years ago.

Other than some EPG lost info issues, it's working pretty good, and we get local HD over the air. So I hate to give it up. At this point in time, $99 or $299 isn't that much of a difference. And it's going to take way more than Universal HD and KUNG FU HD to switch to the 622. And like I said, we're getting HD locals OTA just fine.

But again curious as to what they're doing with the old receivers?


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

But again curious as to what they're doing with the old receivers?

Fry them then have them over old beer makes a good second hand meal


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

UTFAN said:


> Anyone know what DISH is doing with the receivers turned in for rebate? This is one of the sticking points with us. We paid $1,000 for our 921 exactly two years ago.
> 
> Other than some EPG lost info issues, it's working pretty good, and we get local HD over the air. So I hate to give it up. At this point in time, $99 or $299 isn't that much of a difference. And it's going to take way more than Universal HD and KUNG FU HD to switch to the 622. And like I said, we're getting HD locals OTA just fine.
> 
> But again curious as to what they're doing with the old receivers?


My personal opinion is they probably just want to get them out of circulation. They are old and will/are no longer being sold through DISH or retailers. The sooner they can stop supporting the sooner they can free up resources to work on other products/receivers. I'd guess that they'd be recycling any parts they can and tossing the rest. I can't imagine them reselling them.


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## kb7oeb (Jun 16, 2004)

They will work in Canada, they can sell them as refurb.

Looks like I need to try and block the software updates on my 508 to keep dish from wasting hard disk space on movies I will never pay to watch.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

UTFAN said:


> Anyone know what DISH is doing with the receivers turned in for rebate? This is one of the sticking points with us. We paid $1,000 for our 921 exactly two years ago.
> 
> Other than some EPG lost info issues, it's working pretty good, and we get local HD over the air. So I hate to give it up. At this point in time, $99 or $299 isn't that much of a difference. And it's going to take way more than Universal HD and KUNG FU HD to switch to the 622. And like I said, we're getting HD locals OTA just fine.
> 
> But again curious as to what they're doing with the old receivers?


I have posted this before but I think it is worth repeating. First, I don't think Dish will convert all programming to MPEG-4 near term but certainly all HD programming will be converted to MPEG-4 in the next year. I think Dish will start converting some of the SD programming to 8PSK including perhaps some of the SD locals that get moved/mirrored off the Superdish slots to E-10 at 110W. I believe it has been estimated that 8PSK can provide a 33% - 50% increase in the number of SD channels per TP versus QPSK i.e., from 12 channels/TP to 16 - 18 channels/TP. For example, Dish currently uses 16 TPs at 119W for national programming. Even at 16 SD channels/TP with 8PSK, Dish would only have to use 12 TPs to provide that same programming freeing up 4 TPs for other programming including national HD programming.

Dish can use the swapped out 811's, 921's and 942's to replace non-8PSK compatible receivers. This would reduce Dish's cost for their 8PSK conversion. Dish would have to disable via software the HD capabilities, at least those from the satellite so they don't slow the conversion of HD to MPEG-4. If Dish did this though my guess would be that they would disable the OTA tuners and only allow these receivers to be used for SD satellite programming. Certainly some SD subscribers would be willing to swap out their old Dishplayers or 5xx DVRs for a 921/942 with a larger hard drive especially if Dish would wave the DVR fee. Others maybe willing to get a used 811 with a UHF remote and faster program guide to replace their old 2xxx/3xxx/4xxx receivers. I currently have a 811 and I believe almost all of the problems I have had with it have been related to the OTA tuners and switching between them and the satellite tuner.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tomcrown1 said:


> But again curious as to what they're doing with the old receivers?


Give them to Dick Cheney for target practice.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> Give them to Dick Cheney for target practice.


He only shoots stuff that moves... and talks.... and is a friend of his


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

rocatman said:


> I have posted this before but I think it is worth repeating. First, I don't think Dish will convert all programming to MPEG-4 near term but certainly all HD programming will be converted to MPEG-4 in the next year.


How do you reconcile that statement to Charlie's version on his chat that people with MPEG2 HD receivers that were happy with what they had now didn't have to upgrade? You think he omitted the "... now, we'll nail you later" part? I'd expect existing HD programming to continue in MPEG2 long enough for people to forget that it was said it would continue. Can't put a time on that one though.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

CABill said:


> How do you reconcile that statement to Charlie's version on his chat that people with MPEG2 HD receivers that were happy with what they had now didn't have to upgrade? You think he omitted the "... now, we'll nail you later" part? I'd expect existing HD programming to continue in MPEG2 long enough for people to forget that it was said it would continue. Can't put a time on that one though.


I believe it has been posted elsewhere that Dish wants to have all HD converted to MPEG-4 by March of 2007. Is 12+ months long enough for folks to forget??? Besides trying to reconcile what Charlie says on a chat with what really happens is a lost cause.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Charlie didn't say that old HD subscribers would NEVER have to upgrade - only that if you were happy with what you have there was no requirement now to upgrade.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

But if you roll something out in Feb and say people don't have to upgrade, it won't sit well if in Dec, you HAVE to upgrade to continue receiving HD. They wouldn't lease 921/942 so people HAD to buy them. Current deal is you must give them up for the rebate or pay $299. Maybe rocatman's "in the next year" means "in 2007" and not by 1Feb07. I can see that, but I'd then expect the "forced offer" to be better than what a 9xx user sees today.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

CABill said:


> But if you roll something out in Feb and say people don't have to upgrade, it won't sit well if in Dec, you HAVE to upgrade to continue receiving HD. They wouldn't lease 921/942 so people HAD to buy them. Current deal is you must give them up for the rebate or pay $299. Maybe rocatman's "in the next year" means "in 2007" and not by 1Feb07. I can see that, but I'd then expect the "forced offer" to be better than what a 9xx user sees today.


My take on all this is that the current upgrade offers are designed to be attractive enough to tempt those of us who don't want to wait to jump in now.... but in a year they will have more aggressive plans and will make much more attractive offers. Eventually there will be people maybe in 2 years + who get a free upgrade entirely to MPEG4 receivers to get the last ones out of circulation.

If we could all wait long enough, the offers would get better out of necessity... but for now I don't expect the offers to improve as long as they are taking orders faster than they can get them installed.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

James Long said:


> The word Mike got from E* and the Tech Chat comments echo the same thing - no return = no rebate.


That's the answer I got from one of the CEO CSRs. Doesn't matter how long you've been with them or whether you purchased and suffered your way through a 921 on your way to a 942. Lease is your only option to get the rebate.

I personally think that sucks, big time, but then if I said that, I'd be guilty of repeating myself, so I won't.

John


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## catnap1972 (May 31, 2003)

Sounds like sucky news for use 50x(/510) owners. Just how much space are they planning on taking over to implement DOD (something I have no use for)???


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## JonBlack (Feb 24, 2005)

Since they are suppose to enable VOD on the 522, how much HD space is that crap going to eat up? Now I have to consider trying to get a 625 or whatever the new one is because of HD space issues. 100 hours of SD recording for me is just about right but taking away space for VOD is just going to be a waste for me and the HD.

Will there be a way to disable VOD in the settings?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I assume the 622 VOD is based on the 625 and currently there is not a way. I know that this has been requested and from what I have read I am pretty sure Dish is aware of this request. Hopefully they will implement this feature, but ofcourse if this is a gating factor I would not move to a 622.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

catnap1972 said:


> Sounds like sucky news for use 50x(/510) owners. Just how much space are they planning on taking over to implement DOD (something I have no use for)???


I believe on of the reason the disk drive was increased on the 622 was to use some of the extra space for VOD. SO it is not a matter of taking space over in the 622 case. The 622 is estimated to hold 30 hours of HD and 200 hours of SD (approximate ofcourse). This is 5 hours more HD than the 942 and 921 estimates.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

622 does't use it's HD/SD space for VOD. For example, by 501 has a 40gb hd and records 40 hrs. My 921 has a 250GB hd, but only records 180 hrs SD. So where did those other 70GB's go? Well, a couple might be OS, linux isn't very big, so I doubt the OS touches even 1GB. Then there needs to be at least an hours worth, maybe 2, to handle Pausing of live TV, so that's probably 50GB or so. 

Now, the 622 is reported to have a 320GB HD. VOD is reported to be ONLY in SD. So even if they dump 20 hours of VOD on you, it's only going to eat up 20 GB of that 320GB, or which you are only accessing about 200-250GB of anyway. SD seems to be around 1GB per hr, so look at the SD record time and you know how much space is allocated to recording  

So there is a lot of untapped space that I am curious what it's reserved for. I would have thought, like on the 501, the "pause" of live TV was taken from the available record space, but as noted on the 921 and other such large units, the whole drive isn't available for recording. What I've heard talked about is not that VOD takes away from HD space, but they might allow us to not have VOD function, and let us recover that space. But, if it's only 20 hrs SD, that isn't even going to be an hours worth of extra HD. 

I wouldn't sweat it unless you do have the older units, but seriously, who uses 100 hrs of record time ?  that's what DVD burners are for haha


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## alacazam (Oct 8, 2004)

Thanks for the answers to my question even though I STILL do not understand what swapping an 811 receiver for a 211 has to do with my being REQUIRED to sign another 18 months agreement with Dish. I am not going to do that just to get what I feel would be a better receiver. I really do not have a problem with the package change. That is pretty much apples for apples. I think like HDMe said "We should all wait" for this thing to play out and see what kind of deals Dish comes up with when they get closer to the complete changeover to MPEG4.
I also have the 942 and 510 receivers and have given Dish enough money to test their technology for them to date. My cable company is starting to sound better and better each time I hear of another DEAL Dish has to offer to their current loyal customers. I also think Dish should tell people about ALL OF THEIR REQUIRMENTS to get these new receivers and not just part of the deal to make it sound good to existing customers BEFORE the customer calls in to get these new receivers. I was very disappointed when I was told about having to change packages AND agree to another 18 months commitment to Dish. I think I will have to do some more research on going back to cable before I do anymore Dish receivers.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I could be wrong, but I've always worked under the assumption that any of the newer DVRs that had bigger hard drives for potential VOD support in the future... that some amount of that space was pre-reserved and not used to calculate those xxHD and yySD recording times for them.

So whenever VOD is enabled, we shouldn't be losing space but using space that we didn't have access to before.

Now it would be nice, though, if they allowed us to check a box and disable VOD to use that extra hidden space for more recording time of our own choice.


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## IowaStateFan (Jan 11, 2006)

HDMe said:


> So whenever VOD is enabled, we shouldn't be losing space but using space that we didn't have access to before.
> 
> Now it would be nice, though, if they allowed us to check a box and disable VOD to use that extra hidden space for more recording time of our own choice.


I believe you are correct about the HD space. The check box will never happen, for the same reason they put the magazines and candy bars at the checkout stand - compulsive spending.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

IowaStateFan said:


> I believe you are correct about the HD space. The check box will never happen, for the same reason they put the magazines and candy bars at the checkout stand - compulsive spending.


 a friend i have at dish did say the turn off vod was brought up and was at least being considered, feasable etc. I do wonder about the amount of recording. If it's 20hrs of SD, don't bother, 20GB is only gonna buy me about 45 minutes of HD and if I'm that close to full I really need to delete something  haha


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

From the descriptions so far it's all SD ... Think a dozen movies at about two hours each ... 24 hours of space? That's not far away from what you suggest.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> From the descriptions so far it's all SD ... Think a dozen movies at about two hours each ... 24 hours of space? That's not far away from what you suggest.


If the VOD is all SD... then it probably isn't a lot of space to "free up" so we wouldn't notice... and at the same time, that may also be an indication that there will be little or no HD VOD available, which I suppose isn't a surprise... but it means folks that pony up for the HD-DVRs probably want HD more than SD, and aren't likely to actually partake of the VOD anyway.

Now it makes me wonder just who they will market the VOD to?


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Rogueone said:


> If it's 20hrs of SD, don't bother, 20GB is only gonna buy me about 45 minutes of HD


The 921's capacity calculations are based on 7 hours SD = 1 hour HD. I have found that erasing 1 hour of HD frees 4.5 to 7.75 hours SD depending on the HD source.

Rob, excellent job! I managed to get a summary completed for the EKB too at http://ekb.dbstalk.com/Tech0602.htm. They are remarkably similar with each going into a bit more depth in different areas. But then again I don't know why we bother since we have learned that the public statements of owners, presidents, and VPs made when they know they are acting in an official capacity have no real meaning.:sure:


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

hmm, guess I shoulda done the actual math on paper rather than in my head haha. hmm, I never looks like there is enough impact when I delete an SD show but if that is accurate, I guess I wouldn't mind 3 extra hours of record time in HD  ok go ahead and give me that no vod option  

The best use of VOD would seem to be not for movies, but more for how cable is either doing it or will eventually do it. Channels allow their streams to be collected, and if you come home and notice you forgot Survivor or Americal Idol or Monk or etc, was on 2 hours ago, and you didn't see it or record it, VOD would allow you to watch it within say 14 days of when it aired. 

I remember AT&T wanted to do basically a purely VOD video almost 20 years ago, where they would have a database of every movie ever made and would record like a month's worth of TV. Then you'd bring up the menu and pick what show or movie you wanted to watch, and it would stream you that one show. Obviously it never made beyond some initial likely Alpha level testing. I think my mom could have gotten us in on the testing if we'd lived in Fairfax county rather than Prince William, since we were GTE at the time ;(

If that type of VOD existed, even DVR's wouldn't be needed except to hold a program for an extended period locally instead of in the remote database. And we'd never have to worry about overlapping broadcasts, missing shows, etc  too bad so sad, it couldn't work 20 years ago


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## KKlare (Sep 24, 2004)

I know the 921 shows 7 hours of SD for every hour of HD as its estimate.

The Chat pictures showed 10 hours of SD for each hour of HD on the 622.

This looks to me like they are expecting MPEG-4 to compress the stream somewhat better and thus your disk will hold more.

The ratio and estimates will need to be adjusted if the SD channels were ever done with MPEG-4 instead of MPEG-2. Also they would need to adjust for MPEG-4 improving closer to the usual estimate of 2X MPEG-2. Curious,
-Ken


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## kb7oeb (Jun 16, 2004)

Recording a full bitrate OTA station takes 8GB per hour. DishHD probably ranges between 5 and 8 per hour


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

KKlare said:


> The Chat pictures showed 10 hours of SD for each hour of HD on the 622.


The 622 lists up to 30 hours of HD or 200 hours of SD or roughly 6.7 hours of SD for every hour of HD. Again, these are estimates on the part of the software, recording size differs from show to show. I would imagine that MPEG4 channels would take less room, and increase the amount of HD you can record but only time will tell.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

Sigh. 30 hours HD. That's, what, 2 days of stuff from the Olympics? And I can go and buy a TERABYTE cube from Buffalo at buy.com for $600.

They have GOT to allow for external devices....


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

That is the plan for the 622 and 942. Allow for external archiving, but not external storage. Difference being archiving you copy over for holding, but you need to copy back to the DVR for playback. External storage would allow playback from the external device and I don't think that is what they are planing.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> That is the plan for the 622 and 942. Allow for external archiving, but not external storage. Difference being archiving you copy over for holding, but you need to copy back to the DVR for playback. External storage would allow playback from the external device and I don't think that is what they are planing.


can you imagine some of the setups some people here would have if they were allowed to have external storage? haha racks and rasks of HD's, recording everything in HD there is just in case they ever wanted to watch it! I can see it now, the ulitmate 'nerd in the basement of science building' setup!! hahaha


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## airpolgas (Aug 13, 2002)

You can never have enough storage... and tuners!


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## SKER6 (Jan 13, 2006)

Am I to understand that the 622 does not tune in/record local OTA channels like the current 942 does?

sker6



UTFAN said:


> Anyone know what DISH is doing with the receivers turned in for rebate? This is one of the sticking points with us. We paid $1,000 for our 921 exactly two years ago.
> 
> Other than some EPG lost info issues, it's working pretty good, and we get local HD over the air. So I hate to give it up. At this point in time, $99 or $299 isn't that much of a difference. And it's going to take way more than Universal HD and KUNG FU HD to switch to the 622. And like I said, we're getting HD locals OTA just fine.
> 
> But again curious as to what they're doing with the old receivers?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SKER6 said:


> Am I to understand that the 622 does not tune in/record local OTA channels like the current 942 does?


The 622 can handle anything that is transmitted digital OTA. It cannot record or view analog OTA. You will have to subscribe to satellite locals to get any EPG information for your OTA digital channels.


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