# No ground required.



## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

Just moved recently and had service installed at new home. Installer didn't ground dish? Called Directv (have the service plan wanted me to upgrade to premium service plan) and they said sometimes ground is not always necessary. Live in Southwest Florida guess they are ok with system getting zapped.:nono2:


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

It's always necessary. Call back and talk to a different CSR.


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## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

I was talking with a technical support person. One of my HD-DVR's quit working. I remembered there was no ground at the end of conversation and that was the response I was given.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

dondude32 said:


> I was talking with a technical support person. One of my HD-DVR's quit working. I remembered there was no ground at the end of conversation and that was the response I was given.


BS. Call back. ALL installations require proper grounding to meet local codes.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

CSRs are flat out lying, every installation should be grounded.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

dondude32 said:


> Just moved recently and had service installed at new home. Installer didn't ground dish? Called Directv (have the service plan wanted me to upgrade to premium service plan) and they said sometimes ground is not always necessary. Live in Southwest Florida guess they are ok with system getting zapped.:nono2:


As others have noted, grounding is required by your local jurisdiction. It does little or nothing to prevent the equipment (or you) getting zapped by lightning. It does, however provide a safety ground which would minimize the chances of getting electrocuted by a faulty electrical system or equipment failure.

Grounding is a requirement, the D* rep gave you bad information. Call them back and make them do it correctly. (at no cost to you)


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

litzdog911 said:


> BS. Call back. ALL installations require proper grounding to meet local codes.


Correct, but even if there were no code, the underlying reason for grounding is safety of life and property. I would never install a dish without a proper ground. This isn't the place to take shortcuts.


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## bigtom (Jan 23, 2009)

The CSR is likely misinformed or guessing because they are unable or unwilling to find the correct information through research.


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

dondude32 said:


> Just moved recently and had service installed at new home. Installer didn't ground dish? Called Directv (have the service plan wanted me to upgrade to premium service plan) and they said sometimes ground is not always necessary. Live in Southwest Florida guess they are ok with system getting zapped.:nono2:


I wouldn't worry about it- where you live there are hardly any storms. :hurah:


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## richard1428 (May 6, 2010)

How do i know if my system is grounded?


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## Brubear (Nov 14, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> CSRs are flat out lying, every installation should be grounded.


I would suggest that they are not using their resources or are misinformed. "Lying" suggests intentional misconduct on their behalf and there is no way to ascertain that.
For reference, NEC (National Electric Code) REQUIRES proper grounding and if the system cannot be properly grounded the install is supposed to be cancelled.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

richard1428 said:


> How do i know if my system is grounded?


Short of needing an ohmeter, visually follow the cable(s) coming from the dish. They (or "it" id only one) should connect first in line to a ground block like so;










Or maybe;










Which has a (usually) green colored wire connected from it to any convenient screw on your electrical service panel casing.


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## Brubear (Nov 14, 2008)

just as an aside, back in the bad old days when anyone could install, I've lost count of how many systems I've seen grounded to propane tanks


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

Brubear said:


> just as an aside, back in the bad old days when anyone could install, I've lost count of how many systems I've seen grounded to propane tanks


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

…and as sad as it sounds, there are millions of systems out there ungrounded that are working perfectly fine.  I'm not saying that is ok, rather pointed out a fact. Do not flame me….


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

I had a tech tell me one time. The dish grounding isn't needed (installed at ground level). Told me to remove it a few weeks after he left. I never did. I know what grounding is for. No way is grounding getting removed!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

litzdog911 said:


> BS. Call back. ALL installations require proper grounding to meet local codes.


I had my township's electrical inspector look at my installation and he said it was OK. Not enough power to worry about. My system has never been grounded and I don't think it's made any difference.

Rich


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## Volatility (May 22, 2010)

It always needs to be grounded sorry you were mistold. No exceptions. I hate it when CSRS flat out lie. Like if you don't know look it up in the scripts or ask a TL if you can't please find a new job outside of customer service -.-


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Volatility said:


> It always needs to be grounded sorry you were mistold. No exceptions. I hate it when CSRS flat out lie. Like if you don't know look it up in the scripts or ask a TL if you can't please find a new job outside of customer service -.-


Then why are the plugs on all the HRs two pronged? Do you have a seperate ground for your refrigerator? I don't like grounding discussions. Too many people have too many opinions.

Rich


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## Volatility (May 22, 2010)

Rich said:


> Then why are the plugs on all the HRs two pronged? Do you have a seperate ground for your refrigerator? I don't like grounding discussions. Too many people have too many opinions.
> 
> Rich


We aren't talking about fridges here.
Like others said it is a requirement and is necessary:


texasbrit said:


> It's always necessary. Call back and talk to a different CSR.





Stuart Sweet said:


> CSRs are flat out lying, every installation should be grounded.





hasan said:


> As others have noted, grounding is required by your local jurisdiction. It does little or nothing to prevent the equipment (or you) getting zapped by lightning. It does, however provide a safety ground which would minimize the chances of getting electrocuted by a faulty electrical system or equipment failure.
> 
> Grounding is a requirement, the D* rep gave you bad information. Call them back and make them do it correctly. (at no cost to you)


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Rich said:


> *Then why are the plugs on all the HRs two pronged?* Do you have a seperate ground for your refrigerator? I don't like grounding discussions. Too many people have too many opinions.
> 
> Rich


We are talking about grounding the dish, not the receiver/dvr. Two different things completely.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Volatility said:


> We aren't talking about fridges here.
> Like others said it is a requirement and is necessary:


It's not a requirement in my township and I kinda doubt it's in the NEC. I've been arguing with D* for years about this and they don't seem to be worried about it.

You completely missed my point about the two pronged plugs. Why?

Rich


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

NEC article 810. 


> 810.1 Scope
> This article covers antenna systems for radio and television receiving equipment, amateur radio transmitting and receiving equipment, and certain features of transmitter safety. This article covers antennas such as multi-element, vertical rod, and dish, and also covers the wiring and cabling that connects them to equipment. This article does not cover equipment and antennas used for coupling carrier current to power line conductors. Article 810 covers wiring requirements for television and radio receiving equipment, specifically including digital satellite receiving equipment for television signals, and wiring for amateur radio equipment.


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## ranik (Apr 13, 2013)

HR's are 2 prong because they ground through the coax cable and not the home ground, All dishes are supposed to be grounded to ground the entire system not just the dish.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

ranik said:


> HR's are 2 prong because they ground through the coax cable and not the home ground, All dishes are supposed to be grounded to ground the entire system not just the dish.


Actually, you've only covered half the reason. Since satellite receivers *are* all connected to the dish via the coax ground, they have no choice but to share a ground. If they had 3 prong plugs, you could create a ground loop between two receivers. This would cause current to flow from one receiver to the other (direction depending upon which was at the lower ground potential). This is not good for the input section of the receiver. Therefore, the individual receivers are allowed to float and everything is supposed to be grounded at the coax cable premises entry point. If the dish is not grounded, then your entire satellite reception system is ungrounded. This means that if you happen to touch a metal part of the satellite system and a grounded item (say a pipe, a lamp or anything with a 3 prong plug) then YOU become the grounding point for your antenna system.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

studechip said:


> We are talking about grounding the dish, not the receiver/dvr. Two different things completely.


Actually it is all the same thing.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Posted DIRECTV's official position on grounding at the time with the reasons and illustrations from their training documents about two years ago here for those interested;

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2804431#post2804431


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> Short of needing an ohmeter, visually follow the cable(s) coming from the dish. They (or "it" id only one) should connect first in line to a ground block like so;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just for informational purposes, the DirecTV system can also be grounded through any UL listed SWM splitter/ SWM switch, and also legacy multi-switch's that are UL listed for grounding purposes.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

west99999 said:



> Just for informational purposes, the DirecTV system can also be grounded through any UL listed SWM splitter/ SWM switch, and also legacy multi-switch's that are UL listed for grounding purposes.


That will still pass a QC today?

When I was given a SWiM upgrade for WH service over two years ago the installers did not use an intermediate 4 barrel ground block for the lines feeding the SWiM-16 as I expected them to, but ran the cables straight to the -16 and merely connected a green ground wire from the -16 grounding screw to the nearby cold water feed line to the hot water heater and said that would be sufficient.

However other installers here have since posted that was not permitted any longer.


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## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

I checked the swim and no ground connected to grounding terminal. Also noticed one output is open with no cap. Should it have a terminal cap?


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Brubear said:


> just as an aside, back in the bad old days when anyone could install, I've lost count of how many systems I've seen grounded to propane tanks


Many years ago, the NEC permitted antenna system grounding to the gas line.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

The lack of a ground there is no big deal as long as it is grounded at the dish. The open output should have a terminator on it.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> That will still pass a QC today?
> 
> When I was given a SWiM upgrade for WH service over two years ago the installers did not use an intermediate 4 barrel ground block for the lines feeding the SWiM-16 as I expected them to, but ran the cables straight to the -16 and merely connected a green ground wire from the -16 grounding screw to the nearby cold water feed line to the hot water heater and said that would be sufficient.
> 
> However other installers here have since posted that was not permitted any longer.


Been against the NEC rules for years, I think. Too much plastic pipe in houses now.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dondude32 said:


> I checked the swim and no ground connected to grounding terminal. Also noticed one output is open with no cap. Should it have a terminal cap?


Yes. You need a termination cap, looks like a regular cap but has a 75 ohm resister in it. I think Radio Shack has them.

Rich


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## dondude32 (Apr 3, 2003)

No ground on system at all. I'll call back and try again. Have 3 kids, all have directv receivers in their rooms. I wish they had cleaned up old wires when they upgraded the dish.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> That will still pass a QC today?
> 
> When I was given a SWiM upgrade for WH service over two years ago the installers did not use an intermediate 4 barrel ground block for the lines feeding the SWiM-16 as I expected them to, but ran the cables straight to the -16 and merely connected a green ground wire from the -16 grounding screw to the nearby cold water feed line to the hot water heater and said that would be sufficient.
> 
> However other installers here have since posted that was not permitted any longer.


Absolutely it will pass a QC. Only time a ground block would be required first is if local electric code requires it and I don't know of any that do.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

west99999 said:


> Absolutely it will pass a QC. Only time a ground block would be required first is if local electric code requires it and I don't know of any that do.


Exactly what I have been told by our town's electrical inspector. He actually told me a ground wasn't necessary.

Rich


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Rich said:


> Exactly what I have been told by our town's electrical inspector. He actually told me a ground wasn't necessary.
> 
> Rich


Per DirecTV the NEC is required at a minimum but local codes can be more stringent. All local municipalities are required to follow the NEC as well so your inspector is wrong. They can add stuff to the NEC but cannot take away.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

west99999 said:


> Absolutely it will pass a QC. Only time a ground block would be required first is if local electric code requires it and I don't know of any that do.


I've been led to understand that the dish itself should be grounded in addition to grounding the coax. Grounding a SWM-16 would take care of grounding the coax, but it wouldn't ground the dish. I'm not sure what difference that makes, unless there are overhead power lines that could possibly fall onto the dish during a storm or due to an uprooted tree pulling power lines onto the dish from the street or alley. Is there any other reason why one should ground a dish or an antenna mast in addition to the coax connected to it?

I would suggest that unless HoTat2 knows for certain his cold water pipe is copper all the way through (and not PEX in places as is common in newer homes) he might want to find something else to ground it to. Would running a ground wire to the center screw on a properly installed outlet be acceptable? It would be grounded exactly as if the SWM-16 was grounded via a three prong plug. I know some people do this for grounding audio accessories that use a two prong wall wart.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

dondude32 said:


> Just moved recently and had service installed at new home. Installer didn't ground dish? Called Directv (have the service plan wanted me to upgrade to premium service plan) and they said sometimes ground is not always necessary. Live in Southwest Florida guess they are ok with system getting zapped.:nono2:


NEC requires grounding of satellite TV installs (ref. NEC part 820). If not done by the installer, the installation violates the code and needs to be corrected ASAP. Call D* back and demand the system is properly installed to meet your local codes.


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## netraa (Mar 28, 2007)

In the current/upcoming NEC code the requirement to back bond an antenna has been removed. This leaves only the requirement to ground the primary drop/coax run.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

netraa said:


> In the current/upcoming NEC code the requirement to back bond an antenna has been removed. This leaves only the requirement to ground the primary drop/coax run.


Doubt it, you got a link or something to correlate that.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Diana C said:


> Actually it is all the same thing.


Sort of. You can ground the dish and that does the receiver, too. Grounding the receiver wouldn't ground the dish.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

The NEC is a model code that states rely on when legislating their statutory code. The state can eliminate any part of the code, but at least here on the east coast, where I have read the statutes enacting the code for four different states, I have not seen any language that explicitly added to or subtracted from sections 810 and 820.

I have read every published NEC from 1996 through 2008, which is 5 versions, since it is updated every three years, but I have gotten all ground-threaded-out over the years and so my recollections are not as reliable as they once were, but I will attempt to contribute what I can here.

- As I recall, the restriction that cold water pipe can only be used if the connection point is within 5 feet of where it enters the building came in the 2002 revision. Even then, it says _said _that in a commercial building, you can use the cold water pipe anywhere provided the plumbing is professionally maintained and substantially visible from the point where the pipe enters the building to the point where the connection is made (I struck the word "says" in this sentence because when I just read a later revision of this section, it did not include the exception for commercial buildings).

DirecTV publishes a list of acceptable grounds, and last time I saw it, they explicitly allowed connection to water sprinkler system pipe.

- The NEC as of 2008 still said that the mast had to be grounded and that the coax outer conductor had to be grounded as near as possible to the point where it enters the building. Starting in either 2002 or 2005, they stipulated that the mast ground connection point had to be within 20 feet of the mast - which is often impossible - unless it was not practical to do so. I believe the rationalization that grounding an exterior SWM unit meets the code's coax grounding requirement is that the installler is generously assuming that that grounding connection point satisfies the definition of being as close to the point where the coax enters the building. Post #41 says that "backbonding" of the mast is not required under the "current/upcoming code", which seems to allude to either the 2011 or 2014 revisions. I have not seen either but I would not be "shocked" (heh, heh) if they did away with that requirement.

- Starting in I think 2005, the requirement that the outer conductor had to be grounded was complicated by the additional requirement that there had to be a static discharge device used for that purpose. Unfortunately, they did not define static discharge device. Back when we used twin lead, you couldn't ground one leg or the other because doing so would cut your signal power in half, so back then they developed a do-hickey that drained off the static discharge somewhat without actually contacting the conductors. It was round, and it often went on the bottom of the mast. I bought a dozen static discharge devices designed for use with 75 ohm cable back in the mid 1990s but never used them. They basically look like bloated groundblocks that have some gas filled chamber that lets the ground be close enough to the center conductor that even a low potential static charge will jump across it. As I recall, in the next successive revision of the code, they explicitly said that the industry standard coax ground block meets that section's requirement.

- People living on the west coast, where there is less lightning, have told me that some of their local codes do not require the mast to be grounded but still required the outer coax conductor to be grounded.

- People living in Arizona or Colorado have told me that due to the poor conductivity of the soil, they had more stringent requirements for the sufficiency of the grounding rod, but they may have been confusing that with the sufficiency requirements for a ground rod that is used as a supplement_*al*_ ground for the formation of the ground electrode, rather than for a supplemnent_*ary*_ ground rod used to assure a straightter, shorter ground path for one device,

At one time the reception antenna mast requirement was in one section whereas the only coax ground requirement was inferred from the section intended for cable TV. I think that the 2008 revision now has both the reception antenna system mast and coax grounding requirements in the same section.

At one time, an antenna rotor wire had to be grounded, and it had to be flat, and it had to have one more conductor than the rotor needed and the two outer conductors had to be grounded. Honest.

Back in the day of 300 ohm twin lead, the downlead had to be supported by 3" standoffs, but that requirement is long gone.

By the way, if you are wondering why we don't just post the model code here, the answer is, we can't. It is copyrighted. Someone owns the law that we have to follow but we can't know what that law is unless we buy a copy of it from a private seller.

When I first moved to the Washington, DC market and began servicing TV antennas on highrise buildings, I'm sure that less than 10% were grounded to code. It is my best belief and knowledge that no one has ever forfeited his insurance coverage because of a failure to ground. DirecTV and DISH insist on grounding probably because they don't want the bad publicity that would come to them if it was reported as a news story that they didn't ground, and they might not want the customer to be able to use their failure to ground for negotiating leverage, either by blaming them for some damages or for wriggling out of a contract. Installers are motivated to ground because they don't want to be penalized by their employer for not grounding. They were paid to ground, so their employers are entitled to get out of the installer what they paid him for.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

studechip said:


> Sort of. You can ground the dish and that does the receiver, too. Grounding the receiver wouldn't ground the dish.


Actually, if you ground any part of the coaxial network, you ground all of it. Whether that will be safe, or according code, is another issue.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> Posted DIRECTV's official position on grounding at the time with the reasons and illustrations from their training documents about two years ago here for those interested;
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2804431#post2804431


And most of those reasons are wrong.

You ground solely to prevent a static discharge on the dish. Which is insanely rare. But if you're on a ladder or a roof and you get an unexpected zap, you might fall off. And all it takes is one senseless death.

The DC voltages involved with satellite are simply not dangerous and wouldn't cause a shock. And I don't think there's a failure mechanism that exists that can get line or neutral voltage on the dish. Grounding it INCREASES the chance of lightning damage, because you've increased the odds of a strike.

Having said all of that, if your code requires it, you have to get it done. Because if some unrelated electrical disaster happens and your insurance company discovers a missing ground on your dish, they might use it to weasel out of covering the damage.


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## upsss (Apr 1, 2011)

Rich said:


> Then why are the plugs on all the HRs two pronged? Do you have a seperate ground for your refrigerator? I don't like grounding discussions. Too many people have too many opinions.
> 
> Rich


*Because *the receiver has two prongs that is *precisely *why the Dish *must *be grounded! Any appliance that is not "double insulated" has to be grounded. Your refrigerator is *not *double insulated, it *has *3 prong cord. Your electric drill is double insulated, it has only 2 prongs. This has *nothing *to do with opinions!

"Too many opinions" because of too many clueless, none professional people. *Professional = Electrical Engineer*.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

upsss said:


> *Because *the receiver has two prongs that is *precisely *why the Dish *must *be grounded! Any appliance that is not "double insulated" has to be grounded. Your refrigerator is *not *double insulated, it *has *3 prong cord. Your electric drill is double insulated, it has only 2 prongs...


Precisely!!!


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

There is a map at this site http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-Electrical-Code.aspx showing NEC adoption by state and then a PDF file that details each state and any modification they may have made to the NEC.


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## netraa (Mar 28, 2007)

http://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70-A2013-ROPDraft.pdf

it's just a draft, but there is nothing in 810.21 that says the antenna still has to be backbonded, just that it must meet a common ground.
and 820 just deals with grounding the coax network.

unless i'm missing something, it appears that they have decided grounding the coax is all that is needed since the coax is the only thing that connects the dish on the roof which by itself is insulated from the house wiring to the wiring in the house.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

810.1 says it only covers antennas larger than 1 meter in diameter or width, so while it would cover most larger OTA antennas, it doesn't appear it would cover Directv dishes. I don't see anything that addresses antennas smaller than 1 meter.

From what you're saying about not requiring backbonding, would that mean that if you had a grounding block for the coax, you could run a ground wire from that block to your OTA antenna mast to cover the requirement for grounding the mast rather than running a separate grounding wire from the mast to your building ground? Or am I misunderstanding?


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## Rickt1962 (Jul 17, 2012)

As a Home Builder and seeing what grounding does and not does ! If your home get struck by LIGHTNING ! And you dont have the Dish Grounded ! It will follow the cable into the home and could cause a house fire or death ! So people dont be F*** N lazy and GROUND IT !


Rich said:


> I had my township's electrical inspector look at my installation and he said it was OK. Not enough power to worry about. My system has never been grounded and I don't think it's made any difference.
> 
> Rich


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Rich said:


> I had my township's electrical inspector look at my installation and he said it was OK. Not enough power to worry about.


That was a genuinely dumb comment by the inspector. There is not enough power to worry about except when there is enough power to worry about, like when the dish gets hit by lightning, or when a storm breaks an electrical power transmission line and it lands on the antenna or contacts its coax.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> 810.1 says it only covers antennas larger than 1 meter in diameter or width, so while it would cover most larger OTA antennas, it doesn't appear it would cover Directv dishes. I don't see anything that addresses antennas smaller than 1 meter.
> 
> From what you're saying about not requiring backbonding, would that mean that if you had a grounding block for the coax, you could run a ground wire from that block to your OTA antenna mast to cover the requirement for grounding the mast rather than running a separate grounding wire from the mast to your building ground? Or am I misunderstanding?





upsss said:


> *Because *the receiver has two prongs that is *precisely *why the Dish *must *be grounded! Any appliance that is not "double insulated" has to be grounded. Your refrigerator is *not *double insulated, it *has *3 prong cord. Your electric drill is double insulated, it has only 2 prongs. This has *nothing *to do with opinions!
> 
> "Too many opinions" because of too many clueless, none professional people. *Professional = Electrical Engineer*.


As a fellow EE, I'll comment on this post.

You can't count on the ground from the receiver to ground your dish or vice versa. You're supposed to have a dedicated wire connected between the two for that, not just count on the RF shield in the coaxial cable.

Also, the dish is not an appliance. It sees no hazardous voltages during normal operation (all voltages < 50 V), nor does it directly connect to the electrical outlet. Even if you considered the dish and receiver to be a system, a single failure in the receiver cannot generate a hazardous voltage at the dish. And the receiver can easily be a two-pronged IEC Class II device by using a plastic chassis.

You generally bond to ground any large metal structure attached to your house. To protect against overhead transmission lines, maybe your neighbor four houses down gets hit by lightning, etc. from putting 600 V or more on the dish. You don't have to bond small metal objects, such as the nails holding your siding up, house decorations, doorbells, etc. How big is the dish? Pretty small, actually. As someone else said, only antennas larger than three feet need to be bonded to ground, so the dish is technically excluded. It doesn't hurt to bond it to ground if you do it correctly (but it is NOT done correctly half the time), and it prevents lawsuits from greedy lawyers, so D* made it their policy to bond the dish to ground.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> As a fellow EE, I'll comment on this post.
> 
> You can't count on the ground from the receiver to ground your dish or vice versa. You're supposed to have a dedicated wire connected between the two for that, not just count on the RF shield in the coaxial cable.
> 
> ...


I am also an EE.

Grounding the dish is to dissipate static that can accumulate on the dish simply by air movement past it. It should be grounded per NEC part 820. It should be grounded to the home's main electrical service electrode (where your electrical service is also grounded to) but must have it's own clamp on the grounding electrode. If the dish is a good distance (6m or more) from the service electrode, a secondary electrode should be used at the dish location and then the two electrodes must be bonded to each other to prevent possible differences in potential (voltage). My original dish (1998) was bonded to a nearby water spigot.. the installer never asked if my plumbing was plastic or metal. It is plastic (PEX) so I had a floating ground when it was initially installed. I called D* to have the installer come right back out and properly ground the system. I had to come out and show the installer the NEC book and diagrams to show him how to properly ground my system... too bad D* doesn't train their installers properly.

I rarely see satellite systems (D* or E*) properly grounded while out on inspections.


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

n3ntj said:


> I rarely see satellite systems (D* or E*) properly grounded while out on inspections.


You must be out on old installs cause I can tell you at least with D* quality control has gotten way better and I would say that at least 85% attempt to ground the dish properly although maybe only 60-70% actually do it right.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

n3ntj said:


> I am also an EE.
> 
> Grounding the dish is to dissipate static that can accumulate on the dish simply by air movement past it. It should be grounded per NEC part 820. It should be grounded to the home's main electrical service electrode (where your electrical service is also grounded to) but must have it's own clamp on the grounding electrode. If the dish is a good distance (6m or more) from the service electrode, a secondary electrode should be used at the dish location and then the two electrodes must be bonded to each other to prevent possible differences in potential (voltage). My original dish (1998) was bonded to a nearby water spigot.. the installer never asked if my plumbing was plastic or metal. It is plastic (PEX) so I had a floating ground when it was initially installed. I called D* to have the installer come right back out and properly ground the system. I had to come out and show the installer the NEC book and diagrams to show him how to properly ground my system... too bad D* doesn't train their installers properly.
> 
> I rarely see satellite systems (D* or E*) properly grounded while out on inspections.


Yes, I mentioned ESD build up in my first post (where I talk about an unexpected zap and falling off the ladder or roof) but forgot it in my last post. I'm getting more forgetful the older I get. 

Since my dish is on a 4' metal pole in the ground, I had to make sure it was properly bonded to the ground rod at my service entrance on the other side of the house. My installer did it right by accident -- he bonded it to my cold water pipe. It's clearly all copper plumbing. But I know he didn't check to see if the copper pipe was bonded to the ground rod, because that connection is hidden very well behind insulation. It took me an hour just to find it.

But I'd argue that according to the NEC, it doesn't HAVE to be grounded in certain cases. If it's just the dish bolted to the side of the house, and it's low enough to the ground so that a fall won't cause an injury, it probably doesn't need it. But I also don't want installers making that determination, and even if it's not required it's always a good idea, so if I were D* I'd make it company policy to bond all installations to ground.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

west99999 said:


> You must be out on old installs cause I can tell you at least with D* quality control has gotten way better and I would say that at least 85% attempt to ground the dish properly although maybe only 60-70% actually do it right.


and this statistics are on what? Is it just in your market on nationwide? Links? documents stating these facts?


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

peds48 said:


> and this statistics are on what? Is it just in your market on nationwide? Links? documents stating these facts?


Check your PM.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

west99999 said:


> Per DirecTV the NEC is required at a minimum but local codes can be more stringent. All local municipalities are required to follow the NEC as well so your inspector is wrong. They can add stuff to the NEC but cannot take away.


And yet, D* tells me the same thing. I recently had the CMG send out a Tech and a supervisor to do something and the supervisor and I got into it about grounding the system. He stated it did not need to be done. I know it was in the NEC at one time, but I really didn't want to wade thru that confusing book that says one thing in one place and then contradicts itself in another place. Don't even know if the NEC book is still like that, I had enough of trying to wade thru that book and always went to the Electrician's Handbook which is much easier to read and doesn't contradict itself.

As of this moment my system has been ungrounded since I joined D* in 2002 and it works quite well. I do know how to ground it, but I'd rather have D* do it the correct way (if they ever send someone to my home who knows the correct way, so far that hasn't happened).

I did call the CMG agent back and told him what the supervisor told me and he told me the supervisor was wrong. Still, they haven't sent anyone out to do anything about it.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> And most of those reasons are wrong.
> 
> You ground solely to prevent a static discharge on the dish. Which is insanely rare. But if you're on a ladder or a roof and you get an unexpected zap, you might fall off. And all it takes is one senseless death.
> 
> ...


I'll agree with that. I really see nothing dangerous about it or I would have grounded my system years ago. Each of my SWM16s has a threaded hole for a screw and says quite clearly, "Ground". I find the whole thing rather amusing.

Rich


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## thasatelliteguy (Oct 9, 2013)

HOLY COW! How can this many people be COMPLETELY WRONG! 

1. Grounding has nothing to do with lightning. If you think for even a second, that a number 10 wire is going to do ANYTHING productive to halt over a BILLION VOLTS, then you're a complete moron.

2. The NEC, in 2011, SPECIFICALLY says that if the coax is already grounded, NO FURTHER PROTECTIVE DEVICES ARE NECESSARY. Furthermore, since that is always TOTALLY IGNORED, over in the 'should I ground it' section, later, in the 'how can I ground it section' there is an exception written that expands on what "already grounded" means, stating that the internal bonding of the shielding to the chassis/grounding conductor in the receiver is sufficient when plugged into a grounded receptacle. Everyone ignores that one too. DirecTV is the only one that seemed to notice. Their solution was to remove the ground prong altogether, and make the tech ground every system. This decision was due to the fact that 98% of installs would be grounded, but 2% would have a problem or old wiring, and knowing the techs are worthless and wouldn't ground that 2%, they fixed it by saying, OK Ground them ALL. 

This is why messenger wire EVEN EXISTS! It was back in the old days when you had a receiver with a ground plug, you grounded the dish, through the messenger, to the ground lug on the rear of the receiver. Then idiots took over and now the NEC is desperately trying to fix it, but no one's listening. Well, it's not that no one's listening, it's more like no one wants to be the one to tell Charlie, "Hey, you know all that grounding stuff I said was gospel and made you spend hundreds of millions on all these years? Yea, well..." Can we say, "terminated with no severence"... lol

If you ground the coax to the ground rod on the home, YOU ARE CREATING ANOTHER PATH TO GROUND WITH A DIFFERENT POTENTIAL. The code doesn't say another GROUND is bad, it says another PATH to ground is bad. If something happen to the ground on a given circuit which the receiver is plugged into, and there is a neutral fault, the receiver passes the ground fault voltage to ground via the shield. Since the shield is no where near able to handle that, it can start a fire. To the person who said there's no way for neutral voltage to get on the coax, you're an idiot, and it's idiots like you, who have never been in the field, but think you know something that you don't, are why we are in this mess to start with. Just the other day I got a pretty decent tingle by a dish mast. I had not hooked up the ground from the block to the rod yet. I got a multimeter, and I had 65 volts AC between the block and the rod. You may say me getting shocked justifies the grounding, but I argue that the customer DID HAVE, and now HAS REPAIRED a faulty ground connection at the ground lug of the home. Had I hooked up the ground wire, and not been lightly shocked, the customer would still be living there with his two autistic kids, with more than 1/4 of the power in his house leaking out as stray voltage to pop up wherever and kill one of them. Or it would have gotten worse, and simply turning on the microwave while he washed clothes causing the dryer and water heater to be on also, could overload the shielding's current carrying ability and melt. It is also not the satellite manufacturer's job to reground your whole house in case of a fault. Their job is to make sure that, assuming the house wiring is in order according to code, that their device is safe. The ground prong DOES THAT.

The bottom line is, by grounding the system, when it's already connected to the house grounding system, you are creating a secondary path to ground, with a different potential, and IT IS DANGEROUS. It cannot hold the voltage from the home if it's asked to, it further masks REAL electrical problems in the home that need to be addressed, and it's AGAINST NEC CODE. 

READ IT!!


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

First, you responded to a really old thread.

My state is stuck in NEC 2008 NFPA 70, BTW, along with several other states. Installers are supposed to check the local building codes first, as each town is allowed to make their own tweaks to the NEC, but I'm sure none of the installers do that.

I've installed systems for lightning protection on buildings, and the cables used are several orders of magnitude larger than D* uses. You're right that it won't help at all with a direct lightning strike. It can help with an indirect or distant lightning strike.

When installing a new system, aren't you supposed to connect ground first, then connect the rest of the cables? Then you wouldn't have been shocked. I'm glad you're OK. But the entire point of the cable being there is prevent installers from shock, and it can't do that if it's not connected. Of course, if the building ground is faulty, then it won't do you any good.

Anyway, most new D* installations use equipment that don't have a ground plug, but it doesn't matter. Depending on the local code the dish will probably have to be bonded to ground. You can use the RF cable shields for this but only if you've also installed a cable shield grounding block. THE RECEIVER'S CONNECTION TO GROUND (if it is three pronged) DOES *NOT *COUNT TOWARDS BONDING THE DISH TO GROUND. The bond to ground must be made near the point of entrance to the building AND must use 10 AWG copper or equivalent. I doubt an actual 10 AWG copper wire is used to connect the RF shield ground to the receiver's ground plug inside the receiver. They probably just use the ground plane on the PCB. Not to mention that the receiver is probably no where near the point of entrance to the building.

All that NEC and UL60950-1 do is protect from a single failure. If multiple failures occur that put hot or neutral voltage on the dish, or the house is wired incorrectly, well that's just really bad luck. No code will protect you from that. You're right in that following the code at that point may make things worse, in which case the installer needs to do the right thing and notify the homeowner.

Having two connections to ground might create a ground loop. If the two connections to ground are proper, there is no potential difference and no danger, but it's certainly not desired from an interference perspective. What you're not supposed to have is two different grounds at the same house, because they could be at different potentials. If you do have two grounds (like I do), they have to be bonded together to remove the potential between them.

For others, here's a summary of what's required (see mistake #2). Also keep in mind that the spec. isn't written very well, which is why there are many discussions as to what actually has to be done for compliance:

http://ecmweb.com/design/10-worst-grounding-mistakes-youll-ever-make


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

> If you ground the coax to the ground rod on the home, YOU ARE CREATING ANOTHER PATH TO GROUND WITH A DIFFERENT POTENTIAL


Errr...shouldn't your electric be grounded to that same ground rod? Why would there be a differential potential? If multiple paths to ground are a problem, then anyone who has more than one receiver with a grounded plug has a problem. I have over a dozen such receivers, which are connected to four separate electrical panels (themselves connected to three separate utility meters) Hopefully it is all grounded together at the building entrance (building is only 10 years old so that's probably a pretty safe bet)

The coax coming from my dish (as well as the dish mast itself) is not grounded outside, but since the coax is grounded inside you're saying that as far as the 2011 NEC there's no need to do anything further? I don't see where it says that being connected to a grounded receiver would eliminate the other grounding requirements, but it is a bit hard to understand with a casual reading so maybe I'm just missing that. I do notice that the 2014 draft has different requirements for antennas over 1m (like a large TV antenna) and antennas under 1m (like a Directv dish)

BTW, for anyone who wants to play along at home, here's the 2011 NEC code. Here's the 2014 NEC draft.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Please note that Post #62 is the first post by thasatelliteguy.



> HOLY COW! How can this many people be COMPLETELY WRONG!
> 
> 1. Grounding has nothing to do with lightning. If you think for even a second, that a number 10 wire is going to do ANYTHING productive to halt over a BILLION VOLTS, then you're a complete moron.


Actually, the mast ground connection is intended to reduce the liklihood of the antenna being struck by lightning. There are engineers who disagree with the theoretical basis for that requirement.



> 2. The NEC, in 2011, SPECIFICALLY says that if the coax is already grounded, NO FURTHER PROTECTIVE DEVICES ARE NECESSARY. Furthermore, since that is always TOTALLY IGNORED, over in the 'should I ground it' section, later, in the 'how can I ground it section' there is an exception written that expands on what "already grounded" means, stating that the internal bonding of the shielding to the chassis/grounding conductor in the receiver is sufficient when plugged into a grounded receptacle. Everyone ignores that one too.


I am not familiar with any such language in any version of the code. What you have alluded to sounds like someone's characterization of the code.

Beyond that, I see no need to comment on the remainder of that post.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

AntAltMike said:


> Actually, the mast ground connection is intended to reduce the liklihood of the antenna being struck by lightning. There are engineers who disagree with the theoretical basis for that requirement.


Say what? How would grounding _reduce_ the likelihood of being struck by lightning? I could almost see the argument that it might increase the likelihood by offering a better path to ground than it otherwise would have (if it weren't for the fact it is hard to imagine #10 wire connecting a mast to ground makes much difference to a bolt traveling several miles through air) But I see no way to argue it could reduce the likelihood.

I could see it reducing some of the bad effects of a nearby but not direct lightning strike that induces some voltages in the mast. Certainly it would reduce the potential problems if a storm caused a live electrical wire (or a wet tree with a live electrical wire in it) to fall across the dish/antenna.


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## thasatelliteguy (Oct 9, 2013)

Ok. 2011 - 820.93 states:

Coaxial cables entering buildings or attached to buildings shall comply with 820.93 (A) or (B). Where the outer conductive shield of a coaxial cable is grounded, no other protective devices shall be required.

2011 - 820.100 Exception: For communication systems using coaxial cable confined within the premises and isolated from outside cable plant, the shield shall be permitted to be grounded by a connection to an equipment grounding conductor as described in 250.118. Connecting to an equipment grounding conductor through a grounded receptacle using a dedicated grounding conductor and permanently connected listed device shall be permitted. Use of a cord and plug for the connection to an equipment grounding conductor shall not be permitted.

2011 - 820.103 Unpowered equipment and enclosures or equipment powered by the coaxial cable shall be considered grounded where connected to the cable shield.

Another thing I'd like to point out about all this "antenna grounding" garbage. There is NO ANTENNA! At least not for DNet and Hnet. The radio is separated by plastic from the rest of the unit. This means there is no lead in conductor. None. On a different kind of antenna, there is always a lead-in conductor that conducts the RF into the building. On our dishes, there is no such conductor. There is a coax attached to the ODU, which would clearly fall under 820.103, no matter how you ground it. The "dish" then pitches the signal wirelessly to the ODU. There is no electrical connection. We no more need to ground it than we need to ground the customer's lawn gnome. or the stop sign at the corner.

 I doubt an actual 10 AWG copper wire is used to connect the RF shield ground to the receiver's ground plug inside the receiver.
#10 is not required to ground the shield. #14 solid or stranded is the requirement. Ref 820.100 (2) and (3)

If multiple paths to ground are a problem, then anyone who has more than one receiver with a grounded plug has a problem. I have over a dozen such receivers, which are connected to four separate electrical panels (themselves connected to three separate utility meters)

Your house is very unusual. Not many people have different meter services to their home. My understanding is that each meter service should be bonded to neutral as well as it's own ground rod at the entrance point of the building. Yes, if there is another ground point, like a ground block, anyone with multiple receivers with ground prongs has multiple paths to ground.

But the entire point of the cable being there is prevent installers from shock
Where exactly did you see that? I don't remember anywhere in the code where things are done for the safety of the 'trained person'. There are even many places where grounding protection is waived in areas where 'untrained persons' cannot access the equipment. ie metal receptacle boxes inside the sheetrock.

Depending on the local code the dish will probably have to be bonded to ground. You can use the RF cable shields for this but only if you've also installed a cable shield grounding block.

That's a big negative ghostrider... You cannot, according to 810, use the cable's shield to ground the antenna. (Assuming we think we should) If you are going to apply 810, then the dish must be grounded with #10 solid copper, #17 copper clad steel, or #8 aluminum. The shielding of the coax "shall not be required to be more than 14 AWG.", which would make it inadequate for that purpose.

Say what? How would grounding _reduce_ the likelihood of being struck by lightning? I could almost see the argument that it might increase the likelihood by offering a better path to ground than it otherwise would have (if it weren't for the fact it is hard to imagine #10 wire connecting a mast to ground makes much difference to a bolt traveling several miles through air) But I see no way to argue it could reduce the likelihood.

100% Agreed. And I also would rather it be hooked to its own ground rod and electrically separated from my house so as not to destroy every other electrical device I own.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Someone should shoot this thread and put it out of its misery.


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## thasatelliteguy (Oct 9, 2013)

I see they even added more wording to the exception to clear up the part about the plug and cord not being allowed in the last sentence. For god's sakes, it even looks like they are saying you can put a ground block behind the receiver and attach it to the back of the receiver. I'll have to read it a couple hundred more times, but that's my first take.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Depending on the local code the dish will probably have to be bonded to ground. You can use the RF cable shields for this but only if you've also installed a cable shield grounding block.

So according to this, we still have to ground. since we have to ground the dish/mast to a ground block and we use a ground block to bond the coax to the ground.

So if I am correct, this is a moot point.....


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## thasatelliteguy (Oct 9, 2013)

There was NEVER a requirement to ground the dish to a ground block. And I said it looks like you CAN put a ground block behind the receiver. Besides the ground block is covered under 820 and the dish is covered under 810. So grounding the dish to the ground block and then piggy-backing to ground isn't valid most the time anyway because the requirement for 810 is #10 and the requirement for 820 is #14 so it wouldn't be valid unless you use #10 the whole way. 

Actually, under the new 2014, it looks like we again, do not have to ground. They loosened a whole bunch of it. We aren't even under 820 anymore anyways. Instead they carved out an exception for dishes under 1 meter and moved us to 840 which used to be fiberoptic only. So there's a whole new section I'll have to explore and conquer b4 going much further. I had ignored it previously since it's preface so specifically designated it for fiber only.


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## thasatelliteguy (Oct 9, 2013)

There was NEVER a requirement to ground the dish to a ground block. And I said it looks like you CAN put a ground block behind the receiver. Besides the ground block is covered under 820 and the dish is covered under 810. So grounding the dish to the ground block and then piggy-backing to ground isn't valid most the time anyway because the requirement for 810 is #10 and the requirement for 820 is #14 so it wouldn't be valid unless you use #10 the whole way. 

Actually, under the new 2014, it looks like we again, do not have to ground. They loosened a whole bunch of it. We aren't even under 820 anymore anyways. Instead they carved out an exception for dishes under 1 meter and moved us to 840 which used to be fiberoptic only. So there's a whole new section I'll have to explore and conquer b4 going much further. I had ignored it previously since it's preface so specifically designated it for fiber only.


Oh, and Texas has no local code. Never has on low voltage. But in 2011 or 2012, they adopted NEC. None of the local govt anywhere around here has local codes regarding low voltage. (Not past building codes anyways)


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## thasatelliteguy (Oct 9, 2013)

There was NEVER a requirement to ground the dish to a ground block. And I said it looks like you CAN put a ground block behind the receiver. Besides the ground block is covered under 820 and the dish is covered under 810. So grounding the dish to the ground block and then piggy-backing to ground isn't valid most the time anyway because the requirement for 810 is #10 and the requirement for 820 is #14 so it wouldn't be valid unless you use #10 the whole way. 

Actually, under the new 2014, it looks like we again, do not have to ground. They loosened a whole bunch of it. We aren't even under 820 anymore anyways. Instead they carved out an exception for dishes under 1 meter and moved us to 840 which used to be fiberoptic only. So there's a whole new section I'll have to explore and conquer b4 going much further. I had ignored it previously since it's preface so specifically designated it for fiber only.


Oh, and Texas has no local code. Never has on low voltage. But in 2011 or 2012, they adopted NEC. None of the local govt anywhere around here has local codes regarding low voltage. (Not past building codes anyways)


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

I have read half a dozen editions of the code but have not scrutinized the 2011 and 2014 editions, as I no longer have enough professional interest in having mastery of them. What follows is from memory, but if you have copies of the codes of this century, they will give you an idea of what you should be looking for.


The code never required grounding of an antenna. It required grounding of the antenna mast. The mast always had to be grounded to the ground electrode system, or in the alternative, it could be grounded to an 8' rod provided that rod was bonded to the ground electrode system with 6 gauge copper.

In I think 2002, they limited the use of cold water pipes for the ground electrode system connection to just their first five feet from where they enter the building.

In either 2005 or 2008, they put an unreasonable limit on how long the mast ground wire could be, such that it would almost never be satisfied by running the so-called messenger-wire to the coax outer conductor ground block, and was absolutely impossible to satisfy in some other circumstances.

The coax outer conductor had to be grounded as near as possible to the point at which it entered the building. The code used to say that it had to be grounded with solid, insulated copper wire approximately equal in current carrying capability to that of the coax outer conductor, but that under no circumstance could a gauge less than 14 be used for that purpose. I'm quite sure that they reduced the coax ground wire size to 12 gauge. This is the first time I've heard 14 gauge, but that might be reasonable. Does it say in the 2014 revision that the outer conductor must be grounded as near as possible to the point where the coax enters the building?

In I think 2005, they they re-introduced the term static discharge unit for the grounding of the coax outer conductor. That term used to be used back in the days of twin lead when you couldn't ground one conductor without cutting the signal level in half and there was a doo-hickey that I have posted pictures of in some other threads, as I found it for sale cheap on eBay. Then, in I think, the 2008 revision, they said a coax outer conductor ground block satisfied the static discharge requirement. FWIW, there is also a doo-dad about the size of a splitter that discharges the center conductor. somewhat.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

thasatelliteguy said:


> ...Texas has no local code. Never has on low voltage. But in 2011 or 2012, they adopted NEC. None of the local govt anywhere around here has local codes regarding low voltage. (Not past building codes anyways)


*Construction Codes*
*Current Codes*
The City of Fort Worth subscribes to the 2008 National Electric Code and the 2009 International Building Codes. Please find the most recent City of Fort Worth amendments and interpretations below.

http://fortworthtexas.gov/planninganddevelopment/permits/default.aspx?id=31710

It looks to me like, at present, Ft Worth has not amended any 2008 NEC sections above Article 680.25, but they reserve the right to amend them.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

*CITY OF HOUSTON*​*ELECTRICAL CODE*​
http://documents.publicworks.houstontx.gov/document-center/doc_details/3193-2011-nec-houston-amendments.html

301.2 Exempt Work.
Exemption from the permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances. An electrical permit shall not be required for the following:

8. Electrical wiring, devices, appliances, apparatus or equipment operating at less than 50 volts and not capable of supplying or controlling more than 50 watts of power.

That seems to exempt most antenna work from needing a license in Houston, though it makes me wonder about cable TV line amplification, since that has used 60 volts for decades, and some modern cable TV amps use 90 volts.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rich said:


> Then why are the plugs on all the HRs two pronged?


So they are less likely to invite ground loops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_%28electricity%29

Ground loops are seriously bad business in TV and radio.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

AntAltMike said:


> 301.2 Exempt Work.
> Exemption from the permit requirements of this code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in violation of the provisions of this code or any other laws or ordinances. An electrical permit shall not be required for the following:
> 
> 8. Electrical wiring, devices, appliances, apparatus or equipment operating at less than 50 volts and not capable of supplying or controlling more than 50 watts of power.
> ...


If they're anything like jurisdictions around here, they have an entirely separate set of codes for the kinds of things listed in this one.

In my jurisdiction, there are licenses for car stereo installers that are different from home AV installers that are different for those who do satellite installs. TV antenna installs is another license entirely. There's a whole series of different categories under the heading of Low Energy Technicians.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AntAltMike said:


> Someone should shoot this thread and put it out of its misery.


I agree. Grounding arguments are a PITA. Referring to the NEC is like...well, books are written that try to explain the NEC and all its seemingly contradictory information. Personally, I prefer The Electrician's Handbook, a book that clearly shows what has to be done and how to do it.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AntAltMike said:


> Someone should shoot this thread and put it out of its misery.


I agree. I much prefer The Electrician's Handbook, which tells you what to do and how to do it.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Rich said:


> I agree. I much prefer The Electrician's Handbook, which tells you what to do and how to do it.
> 
> Rich


Sorry about the double entry. I tried to post the first one and the second one and they didn't got thru, now I see they are both on. Don't know what happened.

Rich


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Rich said:


> Sorry about the double entry. I tried to post the first one and the second one and they didn't got thru, now I see they are both on. Don't know what happened.
> 
> Rich


Whatever it was/is, it also happened to me with every post I put up here.


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## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

Rich said:


> Sorry about the double entry. I tried to post the first one and the second one and they didn't got thru, now I see they are both on. Don't know what happened.
> 
> Rich


Ground loop?


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## Joe166 (Jan 6, 2007)

Rich said:


> Sorry about the double entry. I tried to post the first one and the second one and they didn't got thru, now I see they are both on. Don't know what happened.
> 
> Rich


That obviously happened because of a failure to ground the thread.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

The problem has been reported to the Department of Redundancy Department.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

AntAltMike said:


> The problem has been reported to the Department of Redundancy Department.


!rolling

Bet some folks will be like huh?.....


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## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

My workplace once had a SOP that contained the statement "excessive redundancy should be avoided", so I assume that a little bit is desirable.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

AntAltMike said:


> The problem has been reported to the Department of Redundancy Department.


And the Natural Guard!


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

fleckrj said:


> My workplace once had a SOP that contained the statement "excessive redundancy should be avoided", so I assume that a little bit is desirable.


Heh. Just saw a sign at a gas station's car wash: "Pre-pay before you enter"..... Paying before you enter should get the desired effect....


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AntAltMike said:


> Whatever it was/is, it also happened to me with every post I put up here.


Been meaning to ask you, just out of curiosity, what were you doing that required you to dig into the NEC so much? I was fortunate enough to ply my trade in a plant that never saw an electrical inspector. We did have a few licensed electrical contractors that worked with us (or I should say, slept with us) and they never bothered with it much. We did exceed most Federal standards in our workplace. Sounds like you were buried in that wretched book for quite some time.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AntAltMike said:


> Whatever it was/is, it also happened to me with every post I put up here.


It appears to be happening again. I just sent a post out and nothing happened. I was wondering why you spent so much time with the NEC. Just out of curiosity, what were you doing at the time?

Rich


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rich said:


> I agree. I much prefer The Electrician's Handbook, which tells you what to do and how to do it.


Regrettably, no licensed contractor can hang their hat on _The Electrician's Handbook_ as the be-all and end-all of electrical code.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

harsh said:


> Regrettably, no licensed contractor can hang their hat on _The Electrician's Handbook_ as the be-all and end-all of electrical code.


It's usually used in conjunction with the NEC book. It doesn't pretend to be the actual code itself. Ever read it? There are also a bunch of books that explain the NEC in clear language. Being a licensed electrician in NJ just means that they passed a test that uses many questions that are NEC based.

Rich


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rich said:


> It's usually used in conjunction with the NEC book.


If you have to understand a book the NEC is the one you're expected to perform to.


> Ever read it?


IIRC, _The Electrician's Handbook_ is for Canada. The _American Electrician's Handbook_ is for the US. I've read neither cover-to-cover.


> Being a licensed electrician in NJ just means that they passed a test that uses many questions that are NEC based.


Being an electrician in most US jurisdictions means more than a nodding familiarity with the NEC. There are a few that don't adopt the NEC but they're few and far between.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

harsh said:


> IIRC, _The Electrician's Handbook_ is for Canada. The _American Electrician's Handbook_ is for the US. I've read neither cover-to-cover.
> 
> Of course I meant the _American Electrician's Handbook_, you can clearly see that I live in NJ. My God, you can find more things to pick at than a flea bitten basset hound.


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