# Press coverage of D* problems?



## zipbags (Oct 14, 2005)

Everyday, I come here and read the numerous problems from numerous people about all the problems people are having with D* equipment...Whether it be the R15, H20, etc. Now, increase the amount of people who may never know about this site and you must have 1000's or more people with major issues. I cannot believe that no major news outlet (tv, radio, print) has covered this. I am also shocked that we haven't seen a class-action suit or some kind of government inquiry.

Personally, I have a R15. Thats been giving me problems for a few months. Lots of lockups watching recorded shows and having to reboot. My wife keeps *****ing to me about it. Now, I am getting the h20 and HDdvr installed tomorrow and I read about all the problems with these units.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

It's not considered newsworthy.

Why?

Well, you've overlooked the other side of the coin on this issue which is the numerous people here along with the others who never knew about this place _who consider all these problems to be acceptable_.

Go figger. :shrug:


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Major news outlet is stretching it a bit, but government inquiry???

Its TV!!! Its not like the recall of a few million cars due to a defect that could harm millions of people (which, if I'm not mistaken, gets barely more than a mention from "major news outlets" let alone a government inquiry).

I expect an intense focus on this stuff within a forum dedicated to this industry, but I think some people make a whole lot more of this in the universal scheme of things than it deserves. I am not in any way discounting the pain it causes them - having to deal with install issues, equipment that is not working up to snuff, etc. - but although people are spending a good chunk of change on this stuff, it is only TV.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

zipbags said:


> Everyday, I come here and read the numerous problems from numerous people about all the problems people are having with D* equipment...Whether it be the R15, H20, etc. Now, increase the amount of people who may never know about this site and you must have 1000's or more people with major issues. I cannot believe that no major news outlet (tv, radio, print) has covered this. I am also shocked that we haven't seen a class-action suit or some kind of government inquiry.
> 
> Personally, I have a R15. Thats been giving me problems for a few months. Lots of lockups watching recorded shows and having to reboot. My wife keeps *****ing to me about it. Now, I am getting the h20 and HDdvr installed tomorrow and I read about all the problems with these units.


There IN FACT are people having various problems - no dispute. Now do yourself a favor, count how many DIFFERENT members have made posts about it (not how posts there in overall). I don't count ALL THAT MANY different members, but I see many repeat posters. My point, is is even 100 DIFFERENT members?

That being said, the level of expectation of users in this type of forum would tend to be much more technical than the average user, my opinion is that the percentage of complaints in the general population would be MUCH lower than here.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Case in point... :thats:


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

Remember how the news anchors opened the news every night with the number of days the hostages had been kept in confinement in IRAN(well, maybe some of you are too young to remember).

Anyway, I can just see Charlie Gibson, Katie Couric and Brian Williams opening their newscasts: "It has now been 257 days since the Directv HR20 was released, and we still do not see any progress towards perfectly functioning unit yet."


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Not sure if you saw the NYT today, but they ran a tech page story, the lead story in fact, about the antiquated state of cable set-top boxes. For whatever reason, the writer left satellite set-tops out of the mix. Seems like a major oversight, to be honest. But maybe the idea was just to discuss the cable subs, and how they will be getting more and more choices on the set-top box front in the near term. In fact, they will be required by law to conform to third party boxes. Wonder why Directv and Dish don't have to follow the same edict?

Well, I emailed the writer this morning, just letting him know about the state of the HR20, the debate (great vs. POS), etc. Figured Directv would thank me for the free publicity, although I'm not sure if he will respond or even care. But the piece clearly shows that the so-called mainstream media is interested in this area, because it's an important one for millions of people. Sure, this ain't about car recalls and life or death scenarios. But it is newsworthy, if for nothing else to get to the bottom of the situation in some way.

Sometimes reporters just have to find the stories (or have someone find the story for them). We'll see if the reporter follows up, or even reads the email. I have no way of knowing, but I believed it was worth the effort. I just pointed him to HDTVMagazine.com, which ran my article on the HR20 debate.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

zipbags said:


> I am also shocked that we haven't seen a class-action suit or some kind of government inquiry.


No, no, no.

No need for lawyers to be involved. And the government? WTF?


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

For all the problems DirecTV has had with its DVRs lately, they don't compare to the crap that is foisted upon cable subscribers in many if not most cases. Most people just accept it. May of us D* subscribers have had positive experiences with their equipment in the past, so we have higher standards.



tstarn said:


> Not sure if you saw the NYT today, but they ran a tech page story, the lead story in fact, about the antiquated state of cable set-top boxes. For whatever reason, the writer left satellite set-tops out of the mix. Seems like a major oversight, to be honest. But maybe the idea was just to discuss the cable subs, and how they will be getting more and more choices on the set-top box front in the near term. In fact, they will be required by law to conform to third party boxes. Wonder why Directv and Dish don't have to follow the same edict?


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## zipbags (Oct 14, 2005)

JLucPicard said:


> Major news outlet is stretching it a bit, but government inquiry???
> 
> Its TV!!! Its not like the recall of a few million cars due to a defect that could harm millions of people (which, if I'm not mistaken, gets barely more than a mention from "major news outlets" let alone a government inquiry).


Why would it be impossible for a government inquiry. Look at all of the congressional hearings regarding cable, High def mandates for tv and even steroid use by a few hundred pro baseball players. So don't think just because its a limited issue that the gov wouldn't get involved.

That being said. I am not advocating a govt inquiry or a class action lawsuit. What does interest me is that a product has been released for a year and is still having tech issues....And its a product that we pay monthly to receive. And to further clarify. If my dvr crashed on locked up once or twice a month. I wouldn't give a crap. But, it is happening almost daily.


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## bigbw (Jun 25, 2003)

Results of government inquiry would be a unit that works perfectly, but you would need a waiver from your local broadcasters to get it..


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> For all the problems DirecTV has had with its DVRs lately, they don't compare to the crap that is foisted upon cable subscribers in many if not most cases. Most people just accept it. May of us D* subscribers have had positive experiences with their equipment in the past, so we have higher standards.


Understood. But why were satellites left out of the story completely, as if they don't exist (they mention FIOS, U-Verse, etc.) Strange. We'll see if the guy follows up about the HR20. I'm curious. But my guess is they don't even read their emails.


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## Badger (Jan 31, 2006)

zipbags said:


> Why would it be impossible for a government inquiry. Look at all of the congressional hearings regarding cable, High def mandates for tv and even steroid use by a few hundred pro baseball players. So don't think just because its a limited issue that the gov wouldn't get involved.
> 
> That being said. I am not advocating a govt inquiry or a class action lawsuit. What does interest me is that a product has been released for a year and is still having tech issues....And its a product that we pay monthly to receive. And to further clarify. If my dvr crashed on locked up once or twice a month. I wouldn't give a crap. But, it is happening almost daily.


I presume you have called D* to get your problem corrected right? Only they can send you a new box etc. to try to take care of your problem. Not much us other posters here can do to help your problem!


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> No need for lawyers to be involved.


I agree, but I am also surprised that some sort of suit has not been filed. They have been filed for much less.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

There are more than a million R15's and HR20's in use (collectively). I don't know the exact number, but it is a lot.

A small percentage of these are having significant problems. If that happens to be one percent (just for discussion purposes, I don't know an actual number), then you have something like 10,000+ bad units out there. But that also means you have 990,000- good units out there.

Based on the number of diffferent people who are on the various forums noting problems, it does not seem unreasonable to say that most DVR users are having a satisfactory experience. Also, DirecTV is working to specifically correct the identified issues, as evidenced by continuing software releases for both the R15 and the HR20.

Given all the facts, even if I were a juror who personally was having problems with an R15 or an HR20, I would still have trouble finding in favor of a class action. But then I think we are a litigation crazy society anyway, and there are entirely too many firvolous law suits.

Carl


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I have to agree that such a class-action suit would be frivolous. Suits such as these (I'm no lawyer, but this is my understanding) have to show actual damages occurred. For example, if I buy a gun, and I go and randomly shoot someone, then the victim wouldn't be allowed to go after the gun manufacturer for developing a "faulty product". Even though he/she received harm from the product. The product is doing what it was designed to do. If, however, while firing that gun, it misfires and I get injured, then I would be able to go after the gun manufacturer for creating a faulty product. 

All that being said, I agree with Carl - we are a litigeous-happy society, and juries will look to dispense what they view as justice, making big, rich companies pay... so there is no telling what would happen should a suit like this go forward. But unless you can demonstrate actual damages (e.g. you rely on a service for your company, and that service is "guaranteed" to be up all the time, but you lose your service for some reason, costing you money... that would constitute a monetary damage to you), really there is no cause for a law suit for a defective product.

However, if DirecTV made promises to you as a consumer that they didn't deliver on (which many would argue is the case with the R15), then you could go after them for false advertising. All that being said, class action suits are really a lawyer's dream - but do very little for the parties in the law suit. The lawyer collects a pretty good fee for representing the party, but the people in the class action generally get very little - a token, usually. The company being sued, and the lawyers involved, both have an incentive to settle quickly out of court. That ensures the legal team a nice fee, and ensures the company that the problem goes away quickly. It's assumed that lawyes in these cases have the interests of the wronged parties at heart - they generally don't.

As for Congress getting involved... I would be careful of what I ask for. Congressional involvement generally causes more problems than it solves. I would think that the LAST thing someone would want to do is to make an issue like this subject to how the political winds are blowing - generally any such legislation tends to have horrible unseen consequences that stand to hurt everyone. There are just too many cases of where Congress "fixed" problems that resulted in more harm than good.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Just realized that my response was actually better suited for a different, although somewhat related, thread that I read earlier. Sorry to get so far off topic...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tstarn said:


> Understood. But why were satellites left out of the story completely, as if they don't exist (they mention FIOS, U-Verse, etc.) Strange. We'll see if the guy follows up about the HR20. I'm curious. But my guess is they don't even read their emails.


For its part FIOS is just like cable. Same set tops and everything. U-Verse promises to be what FIOS promised to be (but failed). In any event, they are terrestrial and the whole concept of fiber has a nice buzz to it.

I would argue that it is going to take something substantial to get DirecTV back on track. They seem to be stuck in appeasement mode with no clear path out. Rather than fixing the problems with the hardware, software and subcontractors, they seem to be handing out credits like there is no tomorrow.

While the board of directors is likely in for a shake-up this Summer, DirecTV is still a publicly traded company with responsibilities to its customers and shareholders. That shouldn't change appreciably with a new board nor a change in who the big shareholder is.

Now if someone sues to force DirecTV to forgive some or all of the 24 month commitments, then there's going to be trouble. Even with all of the non-guarantees that are in the agreements, there is always a basic level of service that should be expected.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

harsh said:


> For its part FIOS is just like cable. Same set tops and everything. U-Verse promises to be what FIOS promised to be (but failed). In any event, they are terrestrial and the whole concept of fiber has a nice buzz to it.
> 
> I would argue that it is going to take something substantial to get DirecTV back on track. They seem to be stuck in appeasement mode with no clear path out. Rather than fixing the problems with the hardware, software and subcontractors, they seem to be handing out credits like there is no tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Good points, all. People usually believe society is litigation-happy until they need a legal remedy for something that happens to them, especially to one of their children or relatives. The insurance companies and the big corps have done a fine spin job snowballing the American public about the costs of litigation, especially in medical malpractice and consumer products, but if you check the facts, many, many anti-consumer wrongs were righted through the courts. In other word, if you don't force the issue, you'll get stonewalling and foot-dragging. And most of the silly suits we read about in the tabloids never get past first base in the courts, or are overturned on appeal.

On the other hand, the class action fee situation isn't great. But even there, some of those suits have resulted in major wins for consumers, even if the lawyers reap most of the financial spoils.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

carl6 said:


> A small percentage of these are having significant problems. If that happens to be one percent (just for discussion purposes, I don't know an actual number), then you have something like 10,000+ bad units out there. But that also means you have 990,000- good units out there.


The problem with this theory is that it assumes that everyone has the same expectations and needs. I'm betting that if you took a poll today, you would find that more than 20% of the R15 and HR20 population is running on a replacement receiver.

Some would classify missing a recording of 24 as a "significant problem". Others would consider any problem "significant" that required a re-format.

Life threatening? Not unless you can't receive a local station during a Emergency Broadcasting System broadcast.

Breach of contract? Maybe.

Assuring customers that everything is alright? Unforgivable.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

I know the unpleasantness and frustration that is associated when things don't work/operate as expected - and it is not good to go through all of the aggravation that it brings.

But I just looked again at the most replied to threads in the HR20 forums, there in reality are fewer than 100 DIFFERENT members reporting problems, and that includes those that feel that their issues are not major, and wouldn't change their decision to obtain one of them in any way.

I say that because, I just don't see evidence of a high percentage of unsatisfied customers in the general population - and for lots of reasons (most discussed over and over) - lack of real knowledge on the device and what it can/is supposed to do, limited usage, etc. ALL of those people would respond and say it works just as expected. Frankly, if so FEW members (less than 100) in a site like this are complaining (that is in NO way to lessen the REALITY of their problems or complaints) - the very people that ARE demanding/expecting ALL features to be perfect (and they are entitled IMO) - than my take is the percentage of general population subs complaining would be FAR LOWER (because it ALWAYS IS).


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Good points, all. People usually believe society is litigation-happy until they need a legal remedy for something that happens to them, especially to one of their children or relatives. The insurance companies and the big corps have done a fine spin job snowballing the American public about the costs of litigation, especially in medical malpractice and consumer products, but if you check the facts, many, many anti-consumer wrongs were righted through the courts. In other word, if you don't force the issue, you'll get stonewalling and foot-dragging. And most of the silly suits we read about in the tabloids never get past first base in the courts, or are overturned on appeal.
> 
> On the other hand, the class action fee situation isn't great. But even there, some of those suits have resulted in major wins for consumers, even if the lawyers reap most of the financial spoils.


Of course, this is assuming that you can prove you have 'damages'. What can you claim are your damages? I would imagine that any person making a claim would have had to speak and try to resolve their issues with CSR (at least once), and so on. I mean, if you had the DVR for 3 months, the most you can be out is what $20? Lots of the people reporting problems have also said they are getting various types of programming or premium package credits, that would also alleviate financial burdens on D* if any. Seems really like an effort that couldn't yield to much - except maybe to take energy internally away from getting things perfected to everyones satisfaction.


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## Chesney09 (Apr 11, 2006)

I think a lot of the frustration stems from 1. D* used to have pretty good Customer service. 2. The D*Tivo units be it SD or HD worked and worked pretty well. 
Even to the point that people (myself included) paid $500 and up for the HD Tivo.

When they dumped the relationship with Tivo, went to leased equipment, and locked people into 2 year agreements... all the BS seemed to tkae off from there.. Over loaded call Queues, etc.

63% of the Tivo boxes out in the wild are D* Tivos.. I don't understand why D* thoguth they could do better.. They had a realtionship with a household name. Regardless of what companies they aquired.. Tivo should have been the one they made a Priority and not that other outfit.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Exactly. It isn't just bugs with the HR20. 

It's a cumulative perception of deterioration for me that encompasses customer service, corporate philosophies, hardware performance and content delivery.

This potentially touches the entire subscriber community eventually.

Is the whole greater than the sum of its' parts? Maybe, maybe not but there are a lot of parts and it does add up...at least for me.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Chesney09 said:


> Regardless of what companies they aquired.


The relationship with NDS was not an acquisition. It was that of a manufacturer choosing a subcontractor. Choosing NDS was obviously motivated by the big shareholder at the time. Clearly, NDS had and continues to have a horrible track record and DirecTV seems to be suffering the consequences.

Hiring the nephew because he's the nephew will always be a problem.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Of course, this is assuming that you can prove you have 'damages'. What can you claim are your damages? I would imagine that any person making a claim would have had to speak and try to resolve their issues with CSR (at least once), and so on. I mean, if you had the DVR for 3 months, the most you can be out is what $20? Lots of the people reporting problems have also said they are getting various types of programming or premium package credits, that would also alleviate financial burdens on D* if any. Seems really like an effort that couldn't yield to much - except maybe to take energy internally away from getting things perfected to everyones satisfaction.


I'm not advocating a class action lawsuit, but the reason they were initially created was for just that purpose: To give consumers with minor financial damages a lever against large companies/entities, and that relief can stem from product defects/damages or a breech of contract situation (which might be the type of case that Harsh is thinking of). In the latter, you do have monetary losses, albeit very small, because you are not getting what you ostensibly paid for. But when you multiply that across a large number of plaintiffs, well, it makes the defendent companies take notice.

No, it's way too early for litigation, class action or otherwise. But if a year from now, heaven forbid, we're still having this discussion, then it might make more sense. Let's hope not.

To your other point about the "actual" number of people who own HR20s without basic reliability, no one knows, of course. But I can assure you that the Directv brass is seriously concerned at this point. If it were a minor number of cases, that just wouldn't be the case. The last thing they want now is a PR black eye if someone investigates this and finds out that it is in fact affecting a serious number of subs. Do you agree on that point, for the sake of argument?

Hey, I'd love to have the exact numbers of real problem HR20s. But I refuse to try and guess what they might be based on the number of people posting problems on DBStalk.com, one way or the other. It just seems to me that the problems are real, and the people affected are not insignificant. Call it intuition, opinion, whatever. Sometimes, you have to go with your instincts, right? Yours are different than mine in this case.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Chesney09 said:


> I think a lot of the frustration stems from 1. D* used to have pretty good Customer service. 2. The D*Tivo units be it SD or HD worked and worked pretty well.
> Even to the point that people (myself included) paid $500 and up for the HD Tivo.
> 
> When they dumped the relationship with Tivo, went to leased equipment, and locked people into 2 year agreements... all the BS seemed to tkae off from there.. Over loaded call Queues, etc.
> ...


Definitely.

If I had never owned/used a DVR before, I am sure I would be extremely pleased with the HR20, warts and all.

If they had come out with their own DVRs years ago, rather than partnering with Tivo, I would also have been pleased with the unit...even though I had been using a standalone ReplayTV, the integration of receiver/recorder into one box would have made me happy and willing to excuse many flaws. DVR's were relatively new then, and we'd live with some glitches to get functionality far beyond our VCRs.

However, it's now 2007. DVR's aren't new, and those of us who have experienced solid ones (DirecTivos or otherwise) aren't enthused about having to deal with problems with core functionality, nor are we too willing to accept "it's new" as an excuse. It's only new because of their decision to drop Tivo.

While I don't agree with that decision, I can understand why it was made (lower costs, full control over the user experience and adding their own "active" features, etc.). However, it being a _good _decision depends upon delivering a reliable DVR that meets or exceeds the features the existing DVR customer base had become accustomed to.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

When I got my R15, DTV didn't tell me about the problems I would experience (in fact, when I first started calling tech support, they would tell me they never heard of the problem before).

Although I got my R15 for free, lots of people paid upfront fees for their R15s or HR20s.

Additionally, I paid $20 for installation, plus $6 per month as a DVR fee (on top of the DTV subscription fee).

I am locked into a 2 year commitment.

Without the R15, I could have used the autotune feature on my standard receiver to record shows on my DVD recorder. But since the R15 does not have autotune, I can't use my DVD recorder as backup. If the R15 does not record a show, I've missed it, even though I paid the DTV subscription fee to watch it. I pay approximately $60 per month in subscription fees, and I watch approximately 60 hours of television per month. So each missed or screwed-up hour of recording means I paid DTV $1 for nothing. I figure by R15 screws up about 2 hours per month, so that means I've paid DTV $2 per month for nothing.

I won't discuss people who pay a mirroring fee because they've set up another receiver as backup for the R15. I also won't discuss the recordings I lost every time they tell me to do a reformat.

So after my 2 year commitment, I will have paid DTV $212 ($20 install, $6/month DVR fee, $2/month missed recordings) for a faulty DVR. If DTV had told me about the problems, I would have saved my money and just recorded on my DVD recorder.

I want my $212 back.

If there are a million people with R15's out there, then DTV has pocketed $212 Million which they do not deserve.

They have no incentive to fix the product quickly. They are making $212 Million off it. 

If a class action lawsuit would cost them the $212 in actual damages plus another $212 in punitive damages, then maybe they would have the incentive to invest into fixing the product.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> To your other point about the "actual" number of people who own HR20s without basic reliability, no one knows, of course. But I can assure you that the Directv brass is seriously concerned at this point. If it were a minor number of cases, that just wouldn't be the case. The last thing they want now is a PR black eye if someone investigates this and finds out that it is in fact affecting a serious number of subs. Do you agree on that point, for the sake of argument?
> 
> Hey, I'd love to have the exact numbers of real problem HR20s. But I refuse to try and guess what they might be based on the number of people posting problems on DBStalk.com, one way or the other. It just seems to me that the problems are real, and the people affected are not insignificant. Call it intuition, opinion, whatever. Sometimes, you have to go with your instincts, right? Yours are different than mine in this case.


I have already stated more than twice (in various of these threads) that I take Earl's position - if even 1 person has an issue - it's a concern. I state numbers actually because you DID throw a VERY high (and to me unbelievable) number - you said in your article you believe it to be HIGHER THAN 20% and cited what you are reading here at dbstalk as your reasoning. I believe that DirecTV is seriously concerned, but no where near at the level in the way you present it. We clearly disagree on this point. My reason, the level of complaint is NO WHERE near even 10%.

I am not now (and have not ever) argued that people with problems don't have them or that they should accept them, or whatever. My take is the OVERWHELMING majority are satisfied - for various reasons. That's my opinion, intuition, instinct whatever.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

ScoBuck said:


> I have already stated more than twice (in various of these threads) that I take Earl's position - if even 1 person has an issue - it's a concern. I state numbers actually because you DID throw a VERY high (and to me unbelievable) number - you said in your article you believe it to be HIGHER THAN 20% and cited what you are reading here at dbstalk as your reasoning. I believe that DirecTV is seriously concerned, but no where near at the level in the way you present it. We clearly disagree on this point. My reason, the level of complaint is NO WHERE near even 10%.
> 
> I am not now (and have not ever) argued that people with problems don't have them or that they should accept them, or whatever. My take is the OVERWHELMING majority are satisfied - for various reasons. That's my opinion, intuition, instinct whatever.


As long as you classify it as opinion/instinct, I'm fine with that. None of us really knows, and forum posts can only provide a rough and skewed estimate of true reality. People who post here are the furthest thing from a random sample.

There are many people who "suffer in slience," just as there are many who are silently happy...we or D* will never hear from most of them.

That said, my intuition/instinct leads me to a pretty significant problem percentage (note no numbers ), based upon years of being involved in forums like this for many types of products and services.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> I have already stated more than twice (in various of these threads) that I take Earl's position - if even 1 person has an issue - it's a concern. I state numbers actually because you DID throw a VERY high (and to me unbelievable) number - you said in your article you believe it to be HIGHER THAN 20% and cited what you are reading here at dbstalk as your reasoning. I believe that DirecTV is seriously concerned, but no where near at the level in the way you present it. We clearly disagree on this point. My reason, the level of complaint is NO WHERE near even 10%.
> 
> I am not now (and have not ever) argued that people with problems don't have them or that they should accept them, or whatever. My take is the OVERWHELMING majority are satisfied - for various reasons. That's my opinion, intuition, instinct whatever.


One question: Do you believe Directv would have gone through all of those download fixes so relatively quickly for an underwhelming minority of people having problems? I guesstimated at least 15-20 percent in the article, but really have no idea, except that both on DBStalk and between two of the four "professional" reviews of the box I had read, the HR20 has been very unreliable. Between the professional reviews (CNET, the Philadelphia Daily News, HDTV Magazine, TVpredictions.com [and no cracks, because Phil Swan reported the same reliability problems on his HR20, even if you don't like his work], two (CNET and the Daily News) worked pretty well (with some concerns about reliability) and the other two failed miserably and they gave the box highly negative reviews based on their experience (not just complaints about GUI, features, etc.). That was only four reviews, but a random 50-50 split. What are the odds of 4 random people getting HR20s and two of them having broken ones? You tell me. I would say that mathematically, if the problems were only affecting a very small minority, then worst-case, one may have been broken. Sure, it could be coincidence too. But it seems odd. Bottom line, we'll see how it all turns out in the end.

So yes, we disagree on the level of broken HR20s. I say at least 15-20 percent, which is a substantial number of subs, you say its an underwhelming minority (less than 1 percent?). We probably will never know.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

On the R15, most of the problems which exist are software flaws, not hardware flaws. Therefore they are replicated in every single copy of the software on every single R15. 

That means that everyone who has an R15 has the flaw. The only variables are how often the user encounters the flaws, and how much the flaws bother the user. But the flaws exist for 100% of the R15 installed base.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

tstarn said:


> What are the odds of 4 random people getting HR20s and two of them having broken ones? You tell me.


If we assume that the percentage of "problem" units is 10%, the good old binomial distribution tells us, that in four "random" HR20s, we would expect to see:

all good: 65.61% of the time
one bad: 29.16% of the time
two bad: 4.86% of the time
three bad: 0.36% of the time
four bad: 0.01% of the time

Of course, a sample of 4 doesn't provide us with a very reliable means of _estimating_ the true percentage of problem units...this is working backwards from a "known" such percentage.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> One question: Do you believe Directv would have gone through all of those download fixes so relatively quickly for an underwhelming minority of people having problems?


Actually yes, I would have to believe that they have full time staff working on it, and yes it is of little or no cost to download fixes in the middle of the night in order to address an issue. The rash lately of 'forced download' fixes tells me they think that things ar actually pretty good - or else they would be 'rushing' downloads on a national basis.



tstarn said:


> So yes, we disagree on the level of broken HR20s. I say at least 15-20 percent, which is a substantial number of subs, you say its an underwhelming minority (less than 1 percent?). We probably will never know.


And we agree fully on your last point, we probably will not ever know the correct answer.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

carl6 said:


> Given all the facts, even if I were a juror who personally was having problems with an R15 or an HR20, I would still have trouble finding in favor of a class action. But then I think we are a litigation crazy society anyway, and there are entirely too many firvolous law suits.
> 
> Carl


Carl...the day you have a member of your family screaming at your because the HR20 you ordered (and that replaced a perfectly good DirecTivo) failed to record _24, Studio 60_ or something else, I can assure you is the day you will no longer consider a lawsuit "frivolous".


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

mnassour said:


> Carl...the day you have a member of your family screaming at your because the HR20 you ordered (and that replaced a perfectly good DirecTivo) failed to record _24, Studio 60_ or something else, I can assure you is the day you will no longer consider a lawsuit "frivolous".


It's only TV.

I'm sorry, but if there was even a shred of common sense among half of the population, 98% of incidents leading to litigation would have never happened in the first place. People need to learn to accept responsibility for their own actions, decisions, and mistakes.

Carl


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

OK, so when will _*someone *_accept responsibility for the HR20 (besides our own, overworked and put upon Earl)?


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## WolfClan Dan (Jan 10, 2007)

HarleyD said:


> It's not considered newsworthy.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


acceptable!??

not bloddy likely!!

directv just so happens to be the better of the current evils!!

as soon as something better comes along, directv will go the same route as cable.


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## WolfClan Dan (Jan 10, 2007)

carl6 said:


> It's only TV.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if there was even a shred of common sense among half of the population, 98% of incidents leading to litigation would have never happened in the first place. People need to learn to accept responsibility for their own actions, decisions, and mistakes.
> 
> Carl


WTF do u mean its only TV?

This is a service for which is PAID!!!

In my case, 100 a month!!

I expect to be served!!!!!!

If Directv cannot serve me what I have paid for, then they are LIABLE!

:flaiming :flaiming :flaiming


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Although I don't have all the little flamey things  , I have to agree.

"TV" is what I receive over the air. It's free.

"DirecTV" is what I _pay_ for. When it doesn't work properly, well, you get the idea. No, I'm not saying "sue the ........" because some schlocky show didn't record. I'm just mad at the whole situation and am ready to send my $80+ per month to Charlie.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> People need to learn to accept responsibility for their own actions, decisions, and mistakes.


Like DirecTV?


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

mnassour said:


> Carl...the day you have a member of your family screaming at your because the HR20 you ordered (and that replaced a perfectly good DirecTivo) failed to record _24, Studio 60_ or something else, I can assure you is the day you will no longer consider a lawsuit "frivolous".


The day someone in my family screams at me for a lost recoding of any show........well, I'll be in court, but I assure you, it won't be for a civil lawsuit......

A lawsuit, over missed TV recordings????


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

It's not up to the government, reporters, consumer groups, blogs or the janitor. It is up to 
you, the individual subscriber to decide how much crap you are willing to take and how
long you are willing to pay for the privilege.

If all HR20 subs do is ***** about it online or in irate emails to the company, or worse, just
grumble to themselves and do nothing at all, then top management at D* doesn't really give
a shi'ite.

Not until large numbers of dissatisfied customers start jumping ship will Directv's obviously
overpaid management sit up and pay attention. Conversely, as long as you stay subbed,
e.g., keep sending them your money, nothing will change.

IOW, either walk or accept the status quo and kwitcher*****ing.


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## Andrew_J_M (Feb 11, 2005)

If D* were a magazine printer and they mailed out a very small percentage of magazines with sections unreadable or missing they would quickly get slammed by both the public and the publishers. Just because the medium is electronic doesn't mean that it should be treated as "just TV". After all the NY TImes, Washington Post, National Geographic and Scientific American are "just paper".

For the record my HR20 is as reliable as my HR10 with much better playback, but this is a known incompatability between the HR10 and my Sony CRT RPTV which causes the TV to switch formats when there are big changes in picture brightness, such as explosions and so on. The opening credits to "Ghost Whisperer" are impossible to watch.


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## Andrew_J_M (Feb 11, 2005)

Nick said:


> Not until large numbers of dissatisfied customers start jumping ship will Directv's obviously overpaid management sit up and pay attention. Conversely, as long as you stay subbed, e.g., keep sending them your money, nothing will change.
> 
> IOW, either walk or accept the status quo and kwitcher*****ing.


I wonder how many of D*'s "overpaid management" have HR20s and are affected by these issues? When I worked for a German car manufacturer it was rumoured that one recall was instigated by a top manager's wife being locked out of her car due to a malfunctioning central locking system.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

iceman2a said:


> The day someone in my family screams at me for a lost recoding of any show........well, I'll be in court, but I assure you, it won't be for a civil lawsuit......


OK, a bit over the top on my part, granted. 



> A lawsuit, over missed TV recordings????


Yep. Just ask Charlie Ergen about Dishplayer 1.0. It cost Echostar dearly. It happened and I was part of it.


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

*Yep. Just ask Charlie Ergen about Dishplayer 1.0. It cost Echostar dearly. It happened and I was part of it.*

And what was "your" part of it? how much were you compensated?
Did it aleve your frustration??

I supose, if I were unable to watch the football game last Sunday and I came home to watch the recording which I had padded by 1:00, and the recording stopped seconds before the winning field goal, 45 mins short of the padded end time, I might want to sue too.... But I did watch live....


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Actually yes, I would have to believe that they have full time staff working on it, and yes it is of little or no cost to download fixes in the middle of the night in order to address an issue. The rash lately of 'forced download' fixes tells me they think that things ar actually pretty good - or else they would be 'rushing' downloads on a national basis.
> 
> And we agree fully on your last point, we probably will not ever know the correct answer.


I guess we have a very different perception of the fast and furious pace of the HR20 software downloads at this point. I just can't believe that Directv would have sent down so many fixes (many of which weren't effective) for so many separate, known issues (not the volume of bad boxes, but the volume of individual bugs/problems reported on this forum, no need to list them all) if those issues were affecting a couple hundred subs. Sure, they would have tried to work with those having problems, but even the early downloads would have been "feature" heavy, not "fix" heavy. I don't feel like wasting the time, but if you look at the release notes for each download, and tally "fixes" (BSOD, trick play, etc.) versus added functionality (OTA), the former would overwhelm the latter.

I guess your view of Directv is they are an enlightened company, like Tom's of Maine or something, who would spend all this time and money fixing problems for a miniscule number of subs, someof who have complained on this forum, and others via customer support. I just can't agree.

And the rash of forced download fixes indicates success? Again, another pill that is hard for me to swallow. To me, they indicate panic, albeit Directv may yet (and maybe even soon) resolve the situation via the panic strategy, but to date, it certainly doesn't have the smell of a major success in launching a new product.

You say those many downloads cost them little or no money because all that ongoing programming by regular staff is just factored into the cost of doing business, a status quo sort of situation? Not sure, maybe an expert like Earl or some other software pro would attempt to quantify the number of man-hours spent on the 15 releases to date (10 of which went national with 119), but I would guess it's not a matter of "little or no cost." But hey, I'm just voicing my opinion.

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

My two bits - there are probably a lot of people like me who don't give one hairy (or hairless, for that matter) rats arse about recording TV. If I miss it the first time, I'll catch it one of the myriad of re-run slots. I bet you we FAR outnumber those who get all twisted in knots about recording dreck and drivel from television, and for us, DirecTV works pretty darn well.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

Upstream said:


> On the R15, most of the problems which exist are software flaws, not hardware flaws. Therefore they are replicated in every single copy of the software on every single R15.
> 
> That means that everyone who has an R15 has the flaw. The only variables are how often the user encounters the flaws, and how much the flaws bother the user. But the flaws exist for 100% of the R15 installed base.


I've had my R15 for a year and have yet to encounter any flaws. There have been a few recent updates (see the R15 threads) but I haven't noticed any difference other than the new "look" for the active feature.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

iceman2a said:


> *Yep. Just ask Charlie Ergen about Dishplayer 1.0. It cost Echostar dearly. It happened and I was part of it.*
> 
> And what was "your" part of it? how much were you compensated?
> Did it aleve your frustration??
> ...


I was simply one member of the class in the Dishplayer suit. I owned two machines and my compensation wasn't much, something like a $50 or $100 credit toward my Dish bill or other Echostar hardware, something like that. And the original DP was a larger mess than the HR20....but not by much. The DP suit was brought to a successful conclusion by the fact that _each and every machine_ had issues....software issues. I really don't think we're even remotely close to that situation with D* at this point.

But this goes farther than just the flakey HR20. I think our discussion has turned toward the issues with DirecTV as a company. I pay X dollars for Y services. If those services aren't delivered, then I have choices to make. They are the same choices that each and every consumer has when a company fails to deliver paid-for services and they range from a polite phone call to a full-blown lawsuit. If the former is a one and the latter is a 10, I think we're about at a three now. But for the sake of discussion, let's assume the worst, that no advances with the HR20 are made in a year (shudder!). I don't even _want_ to think what this forum will look like should that come to pass.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> My two bits - there are probably a lot of people like me who don't give one hairy (or hairless, for that matter) rats arse about recording TV. If I miss it the first time, I'll catch it one of the myriad of re-run slots. I bet you we FAR outnumber those who get all twisted in knots about recording dreck and drivel from television, and for us, DirecTV works pretty darn well.


So if it's not YOUR problem, it's not a problem.

And about those reruns of 24

Or football games


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Tstarn, while I don't agree with the remedy of litigation to solve the problems of the R15 and HR20, I have to agree with your assessment that multiple s/w releases in a very short period of time indicate deficiencies in the product. My guess, as a s/w developer, is that both products were released with some known problems. Again, my guess is that DirecTV assessed the potential problems of the deficiencies, and made a call "yeah, we can ship with this deficiency - and we'll start working pronto to get the fix out the door..." Meaning, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they had those fixes in the works before the DVRs were rolled out, but they used the additional time to test the fixes - my main beef btw, is DirecTV's apparent inability to do adequate testing on their products. They SHOULD have a better comprehensive test plan - and any deficiencies they discover in their test protocol should get rolled into future testing (what industry calls "a lessons learned") - that is, if a current test plan wasn't adequate to showcase a particular problem, make sure you modify the plan so in the future it WILL test that piece of functionality.

BTW, this type of decision-making (shipping products with known issues) is standard practice - s/w shops do it all the time. You don't want to ship something with a show-stopping problem, but you don't want to sacrifice the good for the sake of the perfect. I don't have any issues with it, but I DO think the break-neck pace of s/w releases, for both the R15 and HR20, indicates deficiencies that DirecTV knew were there.

Next, I think the degree of the problems are probably mostly due to perception. For example, you never notice a particular model of car, but then you buy one, and you see them EVERYWHERE. Have they really become that much more popular? No. But your perception is skewed to match your experience. Ditto for problems. My guess is that a large majority of the user base out there is just fine with both DVRs. If they hit problems, they're nits (e.g., the most annoying problem I've hit to date is the first run/repeat issue, and the stuck progress bar). Granted, for many folks there are showstopping problems (and I really don't want to make light of those problems). But the perception factor kicks in too. Because folks like us hang out in forums like this, we become aware of issues that we may never have seen - as a result we may get the perception that the problems appear worse than they really are... or I should say, more wide-spread than they really are. That can lead many to believe that the product is a piece of crap even if they themselves haven't hit any major issues. I know that I get a little more leary of hiccups with my system due to comments I've read here.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

No, that is NOT what I said. I knew as soon as I hit send somebody would twist my words, although I expected worse. I said that it is quite likely the vast majority of people don't care about DVR's, hence, the issue is small in scale, and not worthy of the major coverage and silly lawsuits being discussed here. That does NOT mean it is not a problem, it means the affected people are few.

24 will be on reruns, that's a foregone conclusion. As for football games, you may have a point, however, with me at least, once a game is over, and the outcome determined, I can't watch it - what's the point ? The result is already determined and known, the excitement is gone.



HarleyD said:


> So if it's not YOUR problem, it's not a problem.
> 
> And about those reruns of 24
> 
> Or football games


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> No, that is NOT what I said. I knew as soon as I hit send somebody would twist my words, although I expected worse. I said that it is quite likely the vast majority of people don't care about DVR's, hence, the issue is small in scale, and not worthy of the major coverage and silly lawsuits being discussed here. That does NOT mean it is not a problem, it means the affected people are few. 24 will be on reruns, that's a foregone conclusion. As for football games, you may have a point, however, with me at least, once a game is over, and the outcome determined, I can't watch it - what's the point ? The result is already determined and known, the excitement is gone.


Jeff, While I agree with you that most of TV is "drek," (I think that's the term you used,) the DVR lets us separate the "wheat from the chaff." I would not be able to watch 25% of what I watch live without missing work or staying up till the wee hours. TV was useless to me before I had a DVR. Now, I watch about eight hours of TV per week, but its things I WANT to see, not just mindless time-fillers.

It is people who are particular about what they watch who need DVRs the most!


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I see your point, Paul. My personal take is, if I miss it, I miss it, I'm not going record anything, not even my favorite drug "My Name is Earl". There is nothing on good enough (for me) that needs to be watched that badly. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question with my opinion as to why there is not a bigger stink about the DVR problems by suggesting that perhaps the total population that is both affected AND cares is not that large. This in no way discounts those who have the problems, nor the problems themselves.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

First, I don't think for a moment the majority of DVR owners have them just for time shifting live TV.

In addition, with regard to your foregone conclusion...



> ...In addition to running "24" and "Idol" without reruns from January to May, FOX will try to limit the repeats of several more of its shows too...


Linkage to article...

So if you missed the recording of that 24 premier, oh well...

But like I said in my first post in this thread, it's not newsworthy because so many find these problems acceptable.

Thanks for backing me up.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I guess we have a very different perception of the fast and furious pace of the HR20 software downloads at this point.


Ok - I agree we have different perceptions, but as I see it there are WAY more than 2 opinions - its possible to be somewhere in the middle also - isn't it?



tstarn said:


> I guess your view of Directv is they are an enlightened company, like Tom's of Maine or something, who would spend all this time and money fixing problems for a miniscule number of subs, someof who have complained on this forum, and others via customer support. I just can't agree.


Why put those flowery descriptions on my words to try and twist them. Is it your view that DirecTV is a unenlightened company that don't give a hoot about its subs? No, just because I believe they have full-time salaried staff that work on software updates/issues (which they would be doing whether or not the box was out in the public domain) gives me the feeling that as they work on improving the code there is no real additional expense in sending it out - and besides that to over 99% of the subs with the product, they have NO IDEA or INCONVENIENCE that an update is delivered (they're sleeping). And it makes perfect sense for what they are doing now - allowing those who WANT to BETA the forced releases to do so - and provide feedback. As we see here, and to me its probably the biggest part of the issue - there are lots and lots of different circumstances that exist in the real world - there are those that have no problems, those with minor problems, those with severe problems, etc. Stuff that might take days to weed out in the field, but months (or longer) to weed out in the lab.

My belief that the number of people with problems is way lower than your gloom and doom forecast is also because if it were really as high as you say - IMO they would have taken it off the market for the time being - if its as bad as you say they stand to lose MILLIONS - I don't think they would be risking that. It wouldn't be anywhere near the first time that a company has put a hold on a product - makes more sense than the alternative if the problem is as widespread as you seem to think.



tstarn said:


> Again, we'll have to agree to disagree.


That's fine - its what a forum like this is really all about.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

JeffBowser said:


> I see your point, Paul. My personal take is, if I miss it, I miss it, I'm not going record anything, not even my favorite drug "My Name is Earl". There is nothing on good enough (for me) that needs to be watched that badly. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question with my opinion as to why there is not a bigger stink about the DVR problems by suggesting that perhaps the total population that is both affected AND cares is not that large. This in no way discounts those who have the problems, nor the problems themselves.


Hey, that's your opinion and that's fine. In the grand scheme of things, TV isn't that important, and nobody is likely to argue with you about that. I'd think that it's obvious.

However, with a DVR, I find I actually tend to watch less TV. The key is, I can watch what I want and watch it on my own schedule. I don't have to worry when something is on or when it might be repeated.

When the DVR is not working properly, I can't do that. It's frustrating, and I don't have to be happy about it...regardless of how important TV may be in the overall scheme of my life.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

First, I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry that such a website exists. People surely love their television. Secondly, I read that article to mean that during the season they will not show re-runs intermixed with new shows as traditionally have been done. The reality is, there will be re-runs in the off season, it will be syndicated later, so on and so forth. It's about the money, don't fool yourself, they will re-run the heck out of any popular show.

Oh, and I am not backing your point up. You continue to ignore the point I am making, I will not belabor it any more.



HarleyD said:


> First, I don't think for a moment the majority of DVR owners have them just for time shifting live TV.
> 
> In addition, with regard to your foregone conclusion...
> 
> ...


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

So if a football game is not worth watching once it is over, how much is it worth to watch a rerun episode of a serialized story like 24 once the storyline is resolved?

And this was just the first article I found. This programming shift has been covered by the "mainstream" media as well. It isn't some geek niche news. ABC is doing the same with Lost.



> You continue to ignore the point I am making, I will not belabor it any more.


Uh, hello pot, meet kettle.

:shrug:


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> I see your point, Paul. My personal take is, if I miss it, I miss it, I'm not going record anything, not even my favorite drug "My Name is Earl". There is nothing on good enough (for me) that needs to be watched that badly. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question with my opinion as to why there is not a bigger stink about the DVR problems by suggesting that perhaps the total population that is both affected AND cares is not that large. This in no way discounts those who have the problems, nor the problems themselves.


For sure the number on non-dvr subs is much higher, and combine that with the fact that the highest percentage of the subs that do have them would likely not realize that a missed recording or some other problem they are having is actually the result of a software bug and not their own error and it is not hard to explain why there is no mass public outcry. 99% of the vcrs ever manufactured could have been manufactured with defective clocks and no one would have ever known because they were all flashing 12:00 o'clock anyways.

However, those of us who have become DVR 'power-users' now have the control of what is on TV at any given time. Perhaps your view of the TV landscape as 'Drek' is largely due to the fact that at any given time you turn on the TV, there is nothing on you like, or want to watch. For us, that is never the case. There is always something on that we like and it's all commercial free.


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## Araxen (Dec 18, 2005)

carl6 said:


> It's only TV.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if there was even a shred of common sense among half of the population, 98% of incidents leading to litigation would have never happened in the first place. People need to learn to accept responsibility for their own actions, decisions, and mistakes.
> 
> Carl


lol "It's Only TV"

I'm sorry but I would be full supportive of a class action lawsuit against Directv. Paying customers should not be paying Directv to beta/alpha test their gear. It's about time people stood up against the companies that pull this trick on their customers. It needs to be said that WE the paying customers WILL NOT put up with it.

If you missed the 24 premiere episodes. aside from downloading the episodes off Bittorrent, odds are you won't see a repeat. 24 usually runs without re-runs once the season starts. It runs with a new episode every week till season ends.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

OK, I can't do it anymore. I confess to the fraud being perpetrated on you all.

There are actually only a dozen or so D* customers nationwide that are unhappy.

We have organized into a tightly knit, small, yet well organized cabal and united here at dbstalk.com in an intricately orchestrated plot to give the stilted illusion that D* has slipped in recent years and that masses of subscribers are dissatisfied.

I myself maintain 15 distinct and different profiles and pseudonyms that I log in under to give the illusion that we are in fact many and widespread.

Of the 12 of us only 3 actually have DVRs as well.

It's all just a hoax. ​









Remain calm.

All is well.​


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Ok - I agree we have different perceptions, but as I see it there are WAY more than 2 opinions - its possible to be somewhere in the middle also - isn't it?
> 
> Why put those flowery descriptions on my words to try and twist them. Is it your view that DirecTV is a unenlightened company that don't give a hoot about its subs? No, just because I believe they have full-time salaried staff that work on software updates/issues (which they would be doing whether or not the box was out in the public domain) gives me the feeling that as they work on improving the code there is no real additional expense in sending it out - and besides that to over 99% of the subs with the product, they have NO IDEA or INCONVENIENCE that an update is delivered (they're sleeping). And it makes perfect sense for what they are doing now - allowing those who WANT to BETA the forced releases to do so - and provide feedback. As we see here, and to me its probably the biggest part of the issue - there are lots and lots of different circumstances that exist in the real world - there are those that have no problems, those with minor problems, those with severe problems, etc. Stuff that might take days to weed out in the field, but months (or longer) to weed out in the lab.
> 
> ...


Well, I have it on pretty good authority that the piece I wrote for HDTV Magazine is having an impact on the haste to get the box reliable for everyone (using that term purely to mean everyone whose HR20 problem isn't a hardware issue). I only say that because I heard it through a very reliable grapevine. They certainly don't want any more media coverage of this "pos vs. great product" debate, especially with any of the major media outlets. Any self-respecting PR pro would avoid that situation like the plague. And there is only one way to avoid it: Get it fixed NOW and shut the critics up. Fine. I can live with that.

If you notice, they are providing yet another release candidate this weekend (the second in a very short time period), and it's ONLY a reliability/stability release, which has been my major beef with the HR20 from day one. You believe it's to appease some teeny number of subs who are having reliability/stability problems, I say it's much wider than that. For me, it's not about doom and gloom, it's about logic. If you doubt that media pressure, even as small as HDTV Magazine, means nothing to Directv, I believe you are mistaken.

I am not trying to make more out of that piece that it is, or take credit for any noble act. But I think it has had some impact, however minor, on getting the HR20's basic functions (to record and play reliably) working faster than if I had not decided to write that piece (or post 900 times on this site).

I know the argument. The 100-plus user's on CNET who have rated the HR20 as a "3" or less (out of 10) are just a handful, as are the 100 or so poster's on DBSTalk who have also complained about the HR20 from a reliability POV. And that's really the end of those with problems, for the most part. It's may be possible, but highly improbable in my view.

I challenge you to find any product on CNET that has an average rating (4.4 out of 10) than the HR20. You might, but that's not exactly good company to keep.

Let's see how this latest download goes (this weekend), which is still a release candidate, not a national release. If it fixes all the reliability problems, then I feel as if I had a hand in some way to getting it done. If not, we'll all still be waiting for that Holy Grail: A stable, working DVR to enjoy with our Directv HD service. I'm sure Directv will be back at work, trying to deliver it. But why did it take all this ruckus to get it done?

If you read my posts and the article, you know that I have no hate for the HR20 or Directv. In fact, I have paid the latter$100 a month or so for 7-8 years for their programming! I just want a box that works as advertised, for me and the rest of the people having problems. Sure you want the same. If it take shaking the tree to get there, so be it.

I don't have one of those dead horse icons to add to this note, but no mas, no mas! Peace.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> OK, I can't do it anymore. I confess to the fraud being perpetrated on you all.
> 
> There are actually only a dozen or so D* customers nationwide that are unhappy.
> 
> ...


I love it. And your Frank Z icon. We co-conspirators will all have to meet at St. Alphonso's Pancake Breakfast.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

tstarn said:


> I love it. And your Frank Z icon. We co-conspirators will all have to meet at St. Alphonso's Pancake Breakfast.


Lets DO IT!


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

It just amazes me that some would brand you a conspirator for daring to expect what you paid for, courteous professional treatment, and then voicing displeasure if and when you don't get it.

And for the record, I'm not in favor of a class-action suit against D*.

I agree that we as a society have become far too litigious. 

Let your wallet do the talking. Sure, fight back, stand up for yourself, give them a reasonable opportunity to make it right and if they fail to do so take the $1400 or so odd dollars you spend with them annually somewhere else.


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## WolfClan Dan (Jan 10, 2007)

Shhhhh, the Emperor is not wearing any clothes!

If we do not talk about it, no one will notice!

:bang


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

While it has already been mentioned for 24, lets not forget Lost which starts in a couple of weeks. If you miss an episode, then you miss things that will be relevant for upcoming episodes. If you don't like Lost, fine, but we do.

I think negative media coverage will do more to get this fixed than a CAL. Once a suit is filed, then D* would go into shutdown as they could no longer admit that the HR20 has issues. They would be handing the Class ammo if they did. Updates would be harder to come by as well for the same reason.

Negative press on the other hand drive PR types nuts, which I think is always good. They need to combat it as there is a chance a potential sub will read it and go elsewhere. So get it out to as many media outlets as you can.

D* has to get it fixed. I think comparing the HR20 to the DP 1.0 is apples and oranges. Consumer options have changed so much since then. It is much easier for a sub to move to cable or E* and get a like experience that when the DP was released. DVR's were a new concept then and most people were still using VCR's to time-shift.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> While it has already been mentioned for 24, lets not forget Lost which starts in a couple of weeks. If you miss an episode, then you miss things that will be relevant for upcoming episodes. If you don't like Lost, fine, but we do.
> 
> I think negative media coverage will do more to get this fixed than a CAL. Once a suit is filed, then D* would go into shutdown as they could no longer admit that the HR20 has issues. They would be handing the Class ammo if they did. Updates would be harder to come by as well for the same reason.
> 
> ...


I think we can all agree that if the reliability/stability repair efforts of this weekend work, these threads will begin to disappear. It has been at the heart of this "discussion" since way back in September, and continues to be. Why Directv didn't put this full-court press on stability/reliability in the early releases is odd. Maybe all the programming types can explain it. As a regular consumer with a small amount of tech knowledge, logic tells me that if they would have attacked those two issues first, then any potential for negative PR would have been reduced to the "HR20 vs. Tivo" debate, a much more subjective situation, and not worthy of any national media coverage.

Oh well, instead they chose to add features, OTA, networking, etc. (and also made some attempts to improve stability/reliability, at least based on the release notes).

Now, it seems, they are getting more serious about those two buggers. And that is a step forward, I believe.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> Let your wallet do the talking. Sure, fight back, stand up for yourself, give them a reasonable opportunity to make it right and if they fail to do so take the $1400 or so odd dollars you spend with them annually somewhere else.


Can I take my business elsewhere when DTV has locked me into a 2 year contract and charges punitive fees if I try to cancel?

I'm not looking to get rich off my R15. I just want DTV to reimburse me for the money I'm paying them for a product which does not work as promised.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Upstream said:


> Can I take my business elsewhere when DTV has locked me into a 2 year contract and charges punitive fees if I try to cancel?
> 
> I'm not looking to get rich off my R15. I just want DTV to reimburse me for the money I'm paying them for a product which does not work as promised.


If they have not delivered the service to which you have committed in the terms of the contract then they have breached the contract...ergo no contract exists any longer.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> It just amazes me that some would brand you a conspirator for daring to expect what you paid for, courteous professional treatment, and then voicing displeasure if and when you don't get it.


That is one thing that really perplexes me.

I don't mind reading some giving others a hard time for trying to get 'free things' on the retention thread

BUT

Why give people a hard time for complaining when their HR doesn't work, their programming doesn't work, or they are told something and it doesn't come true? I think the person has ever right to complain....if it happens to me, I will complain as well.

I learn a lot from the complaining on here and their problems.


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## cmoss5 (May 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Understood. But why were satellites left out of the story completely, as if they don't exist (they mention FIOS, U-Verse, etc.) Strange. We'll see if the guy follows up about the HR20. I'm curious. But my guess is they don't even read their emails.


The reason satellite was left off is because their boxes are 100% digital and cable is still analog for the most part and satellite is already meeting the 2009 deadline for 100% digital signals...


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

wneilson82 said:


> That is one thing that really perplexes me.
> 
> I don't mind reading some giving others a hard time for trying to get 'free things' on the retention thread
> 
> ...


For some reason, and it's not totally clear to me, there are those who don't like to hear people complain when they have been wronged via their HR20 experience. Go figure. The thinking is that complaining doesn't fix anything, makes no difference, etc. Well, I'd say if Directv actually reads these posts (and Earl assures us that they do), then the complaints DO change things. Maybe not technically, but at least from a "consumer" POV, especially from a cumulative perspective.

Of course, that issue (people complaining about the complainers, stay with me here) is at the root of most of the hostile posts (in either direction) on this forum. Glad to hear that the complaining has not been in vain (and even helpful). If you do have problems and complain, you might catch some flak (as most of us have). But stay the course.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

wneilson82 said:


> That is one thing that really perplexes me.
> 
> I don't mind reading some giving others a hard time for trying to get 'free things' on the retention thread
> 
> ...


I hear ya. There are certainly some people here who seem to take any criticism of the HR20 or DirecTV quite personally and react awfully defensively. (Likewise, there are also those that state their criticisms rather boorishly).

Then there's the "it's just TV" minority, as if we didn't all know that, or that somehow means we shouldn't expect things to work properly.

Without complaints, here and elsewhere, there's no motivation for D* to improve...or even know what the problems are.

We'd all prefer (I think/hope) that there would come a time when there are few substantive reasons for complaints about the service or equipment. I am long-time D* customer, and frankly for most of that time I had very few complaints (and much praise) for their offerings. I'd like to get there again, soon!


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

cmoss5 said:


> The reason satellite was left off is because their boxes are 100% digital and cable is still analog for the most part and satellite is already meeting the 2009 deadline for 100% digital signals...


Thanks, makes sense now. Maybe a separate piece on satcasters and set tops.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> I hear ya. There are certainly some people here who seem to take any criticism of the HR20 or DirecTV quite personally and react awfully defensively. (Likewise, there are also those that state their criticisms rather boorishly).
> 
> Then there's the "it's just TV" minority, as if we didn't all know that, or that somehow means we shouldn't expect things to work properly.
> 
> ...


Perfectly expressed.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> But stay the course.


Oh dear god, did George Bush sign up for D*?

:lol:


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> If they have not delivered the service to which you have committed in the terms of the contract then they have breached the contract...ergo no contract exists any longer.


Sure, that makes sense. But it seems that DTV doesn't see it that way and still charges an early cancellation penalty to people who try to cancel their accounts because the R15 does not work properly.

I guess, like any contract dispute, we could go to court.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

bobnielsen said:


> I've had my R15 for a year and have yet to encounter any flaws. There have been a few recent updates (see the R15 threads) but I haven't noticed any difference other than the new "look" for the active feature.


Bob, have you not seen the R15 board for the past year? The HR20 is like Deja Vu.

I personally had one R15 that was absolute crap, had to be RBR'd every two or three days, would lock up, black screen, frozen picture, would stop recording etc, the same stuff that many other people were complaining about.

I had a replacement R15 sent, and it has been flawless. Hookups for the second one are exactly the same, the series links exactly the same. The only difference is one worked and the other didn't. I'm not the only one who has had similar experiences.

The similarities between the way the HR20 is fine for some people and crap for others and the same way the R15 was fine for some but crap for others (including two models in the same house) is striking.


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## Sneezy (Dec 18, 2006)

problems aside, the D* hardware and software is total garbage. It should be simple to use yet they complicate it and leave out features. I have yet to figure out WHY they won't let me view only the channels I get....so I have to program the damn thing manually.

How do I tell the thing to record only first run episodes? The todo list is crap.

I regret going with D* excpet that it's the only way I can get distant networks (and the Yes network) without going back to cable.

Including the issues I hate D* with a passion. The machines lock up, they freeze and un freeze, miss recordings.... I have had mine a month and the problems started form day 2. If I format the thing I lose my recordings.

My dish box was near flawless and so was my 4 year old replay TV that I just gave to my sister.

One of these days I'll call and have a long chat with customer support.

I want to go HD but I'm waiting to see if they come through with YES & MSG in HD ontime or not. Then the question is how many problems will I have with the HR20?

Picture quality and content are fine, it's the hardware that's the issue. If it persists I'll probably cancel and go to cable this summer which I'll regret because TWC can't get a decent signal to my house.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

raott said:


> The similarities between the way the HR20 is fine for some people and crap for others and the same way the R15 was fine for some but crap for others (including two models in the same house) is striking.


Yes, and it is what makes some of us skeptical of the HR20 becoming solid any time soon. On the other hand, different development teams are involved, and I'd guess the HR20 is viewed as a more critical product...so we'll see.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

wneilson82 said:


> Oh dear god, did George Bush sign up for D*?
> 
> :lol:


Yes, he did. Busted. I am really W, just trying to get my damn HR20 to work. But since you are in New Orleans, I wanted to say I loved the fishing down there back in the late summer of '05. My dad and I really got lucky. And I love your city. Click on image for a closer look.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

raott said:


> Bob, have you not seen the R15 board for the past year? The HR20 is like Deja Vu.
> 
> I personally had one R15 that was absolute crap, had to be RBR'd every two or three days, would lock up, black screen, frozen picture, would stop recording etc, the same stuff that many other people were complaining about.
> 
> ...


And seemingly lost in the HR20 shuffle, for some odd reason. It's a major point. Too similar to dismiss, yet that's what happened to a large extent.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> Sure, that makes sense. But it seems that DTV doesn't see it that way and still charges an early cancellation penalty to people who try to cancel their accounts because the R15 does not work properly.


They send you a bill...you don't pay it. They have nothing to lose billing you for it. Collecting it would be another matter altogether.


> One of these days I'll call and have a long chat with customer support.


Well, silently abiding will definitely get you nothing and you can't expect any change or improvement that you don't ask for to be sure but my recent experience with D* customer service has been you might as well have a long chat with your dog.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Sneezy said:


> One of these days I'll call and have a long chat with customer support.


You haven't yet??? I know some people have gotten replacements that didn't work right and some have gotten replacements that have worked just fine. If you bought a CD player, and it skipped through every CD you tried to play, wouldn't you take it back and get another one?

Why wouldn't you return this?


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Curious:

Who here - and you can PM me on this one if you don't want to post - would be interested in a class action to cure the ills of the HR20 or HR15 or at least to get compensation for the fundamental problems with the boxes as sometimes operational DVRs?


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

S. DiThomas said:


> Curious:
> 
> Who here - and you can PM me on this one if you don't want to post - would be interested in a class action to cure the ills of the HR20 or HR15 or at least to get compensation for the fundamental problems with the boxes as sometimes operational DVRs?


I have a problem with using this site to solicit people for a lawsuit! Not that I agree or disagree that some "class" should sue! Everyone has a right to seek remedy if they feel they have suffered some "loss"!
You could open your own website, link it in your signiture and discretly pm members!
Good luck, and if it ends up fixing the HR20 for everyone, then you've done good!


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

cmoss5 said:


> The reason satellite was left off is because their boxes are 100% digital and cable is still analog for the most part and satellite is already meeting the 2009 deadline for 100% digital signals...


Ummm! No!

There is no 2009 date for either cable or satellite providers. The 2009 cutoff is for OTA broadcasts only.

Cable companies will be able to convert the digital network signals back to analog and pass them on that way as long as they choose.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I don't have one of those dead horse icons to add to this note, but no mas, no mas! Peace.


I see you haven't lived up to your words (lots of new posts here for you). Or is it that you don't care to debate with someone who feels differently than you?

No matter how important you think you are to this, it is CERTAINLY possible you are dead wrong. Remember, I still want to see how you came up with your words that the number of people with problems is *HIGHER than 20%* which you STATED in your HDTV article. That number, printed without a shred of credible evidence - leaves you in a position to provide some way to back that up. I for one AGAIN don't agrue that some people are having REAL issues. But it SURELY a different story if the number is 4%, or 10% or your IMO ridiculous assumption that its higher than 20%. Your arguments have to be based on that number, or else why make such statements?

You wrote that number, your readers have the right to demand accountability for it. If there is no real evidence to support your belief (over 20%), or your stated 15-20%, you have no right publishing it - they would then only be made up - wouldn't they?

Is is wrong for someone to want to hear/know the facts rather than heresay?

Last time, if its only 1%, that is still an issue thatneeds to be addressed and corrected ASAP - but its NOT THE SAME ISSUE as if its 20%.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

wneilson82 said:


> Oh dear god, did George Bush sign up for D*?
> 
> :lol:


Perfectly expressed.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

S. DiThomas said:


> Curious:
> 
> Who here - and you can PM me on this one if you don't want to post - would be interested in a class action to cure the ills of the HR20 or HR15 or at least to get compensation for the fundamental problems with the boxes as sometimes operational DVRs?


I can't help but thinking that this is a ploy to get money ONLY. If your HR20 is so bad (maybe it is) that it requires a law suit OR compensation, just switch out to a H20 and wait for them to get the HR20 to your satisfaction. That's a fair solution isn't it?


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> I can't help but thinking that this is a ploy to get money ONLY. If your HR20 is so bad (maybe it is) that it requires a law suit OR compensation, just switch out to a H20 and wait for them to get the HR20 to your satisfaction. That's a fair solution isn't it?


ScoBuck:

If I stay with D* and ditch my HR20s I have no options to record HD. The HR20 is the only option. So I guess if I follow your logic I have to give up my HD (that they are actively promoting as available now) to get a non-DVR model that works?

I belive a potential lawsuit may be the only way to get out of my $269 +$299 +2 2 year leases on two HR20s that I am commited to with my leasing of the two boxes. That's a $800+ hit for their faulty hardware. What is D* doing to compensate me for their breach of contract?

Fair is marketing a HD-DVR that works. If it doesn't work right then don't force users to lease it and force them into a 2 year term of service (or any commitment for that matter while the DVR does not work). If I could just cancel my service and get a full refund on both boxes I would have done that already. No one from D* has sent any information about that and my calls to customer service have resulted in no options at all.

A suit changes behavior and enforces the terms of a contract (the two year lease of this box wherein D* promises a working product in exchange for 2 years of my commitment to their service for said product). I don't get to breach that do I? So why should D* get to force me to take a lesser product, deny me the HD they so actively promote and promise, and still force me to hold up my end of the original bargain? That's not fair.

Let's put it this way. My DVD player, My TV my projector my garage door opener, my computer (including my MS software) work just great. If I don't like them becuase they don't do what they are supposed to do I can return them and get my money back from the store I bought where I bought them.

If I don't like the performance of my HR20 I can return the box to the store but they won't refund the price of the 2 year commitment I technically breach when I want to get rid of my service with D* since I can't have a HD DVR and all I generally watch are shows in HD. D* therefore has breached their contract with me to provide HD service and hardware DVR's for same that perform (and apparently with lots and lots of others) with the HR20 that does not reliably record or even start from standby most days.

I don't intend to allow that breach to continue and be stuck with their one-sided lease contract and two years of service that does not meet my needs.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Going back to the issue of people complaining for a sec, here's my perspective. I personally have no issue with someone lodging a legitimate complaint (e.g. "I just received shoddy service from a CSR...") - that's all well and good. It serves a purpose. Where I start to lose it is when I hear carping that serves no purpose. For example, when I read one more post about "why doesn't DTV have more HD..." We all KNOW why... and they're addressing it. Just going back over it does no good but waste space. And one that particularly drives me a little nuts (to be totally honest) are those that complain that DTV isn't moving fast enough to put out s/w updates, but when they put one out and it has some issues, I read postings declaring how they "rushed it out the door."

Personally, if someone has a legitimate complaint, that's fine. If you want to carp about something - go right ahead, too. But don't be surprised if someone comes back at you, carping about your carping. That's the way these discussions work. Ok -- off my soapbox now.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

S. DiThomas said:


> I belive a potential lawsuit may be the only way to get out of my $269 +$299 +2 2 year leases on two HR20s that I am commited to with my leasing of the two boxes. That's a $800+ hit for their faulty hardware. What is D* doing to compensate me for their breach of contract?


something must have changed for you since October when you posted this"



S. DiThomas said:


> Ok. Lurking for a long time (that is for weeks since I purchased - I think not leased -- the HR-20 from BB. I did not renew any contract with DTV for same so that would make it a purchase right?)


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=681388#post681388

BTW, since you live in L.A. you are not correct in that you cannot record HD without the HR20. You still receive your HD locals in MPEG2 on channels 81, 83, 87 and 89 - and since all of the HD natiionals are STILL IN MPEG2 - you can ask them to swap you to a HR10-250 - you won't lose a thing. They may accomodate you - try it. And BTW, that is not trying to get smart with you - you can do this and get all of your HD channels.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

jpl said:


> And one that particularly drives me a little nuts (to be totally honest) are those that complain that DTV isn't moving fast enough to put out s/w updates, but when they put one out and it has some issues, I read postings declaring how they "rushed it out the door.


Especially since they are now putting out 'forced' updates for people willing to BETA the s/w. This is obviously the best and fastest way to test fixes - most people, most different circumstances, etc. These SHOULD come out often, even if they isolate ONE word of code that needs correction, it makes sense to send it out to be tested IMO - and without the carping.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Yes, he did. Busted. I am really W, just trying to get my damn HR20 to work. But since you are in New Orleans, I wanted to say I loved the fishing down there back in the late summer of '05. My dad and I really got lucky. And I love your city. Click on image for a closer look.
> 
> View attachment 7217


That was funny but I got that a year ago  :hurah:


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Yes, he did. Busted. I am really W, just trying to get my damn HR20 to work. But since you are in New Orleans, I wanted to say I loved the fishing down there back in the late summer of '05. My dad and I really got lucky. And I love your city. Click on image for a closer look.
> 
> View attachment 7217


LOL!!!! At least he knows how to fish ...


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> something must have changed for you since October when you posted this"
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=681388#post681388
> 
> BTW, since you live in L.A. you are not correct in that you cannot record HD without the HR20. You still receive your HD locals in MPEG2 on channels 81, 83, 87 and 89 - and since all of the HD natiionals are STILL IN MPEG2 - you can ask them to swap you to a HR10-250 - you won't lose a thing. They may accomodate you - try it. And BTW, that is not trying to get smart with you - you can do this and get all of your HD channels.


ScoBuck:

Nice search work. I was told at first one of my HR20s was not leased. I have since been informed that this is not true and the CSR who stated that is mistaken.

Now you may understand that MPEG2 HD is here for a while but it seems to me (and I can't confirm this) that I read somewhere that MPEG2 locals will vanish this year and MPEG4 is mandatory. Since the HR10-250 does not support MPEG4 it will effectively become a very nice (and once very functional) paperweight when that occurs. Yea that's the ticket. GM you can't get the 2007 Impala working so I will take a 2006 swap for the same price so what it has 75 fewer poines and fewer power options and safety features - I can still drive it around California so I am happy as a clam. Gee thanks for looking out for my interests. What a great bunch of guys.

All due sarcasm aside, I don't wish to be stuck with a paperweight only to later be stuck with a new HR20 that still has bugs. If the HR10-250 supported MPEG4 I would have bought one from a friend who has two right now. If I also recall correctly the HR10-250 is no longer available and no longer offered by D* - where are you getting the information that it is an option for HR20 owners. Besides - isn't asking for a two year old box giving up. Ok D* I will take a two year old box because you can't get your HR20 working right and still have the same commitment that a HR20 new box user has - don't think that is an option for me.

The point of my comments is that D* needs to deliver a working HD_DVR that supports all of their new birds, all of their new MPEG4 programing and all of the feaures they promised when that box was released. Aside from OTA and VIIV features there is no excuse as to why all of the recording, scheduling, searching and MPEG2 and MPEG4 features of this box were not flawless the day it first rolled into national customers homes. And for the record there are some MPEG4 locals in LA that you can't get on the MPEG2/three LNB dish - KTLA the CW is one of them. So - no offense intended - let's get some of the facts straight before we post. That is a harbinger of more changes to come and more progamming those with HR10-250's are missing.

D* got ahead of themselves and released a product not ready for primetime. They need to compensate those with issues for that error while, and IF, they ever work out the kinks with its basic functionality as a DVR.

VIIV and all the other ICING should have been on the back burner till then. Four months later D* just got that point? Why because of this forum?

So no one here wants a class action - good for them. My contract with D* is in California, I live in California, it's not too hard for me to sue to enforce it or obtain judicial recision of it in California. Perhaps that will be the first of many. I sure hope it does not come to that - but with each new software release for this box the future looks dimmer and dimmer. I've made my timeline for same very clear - mayabe someone at D* is reading and paying attention. Maybe someone will give me a call to say hey we see you have issues how can we serve the customer and make it right. Probably not going to happen though.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

S. DiThomas said:


> ScoBuck:
> 
> Nice search work. I was told at first one of my HR20s was not leased. I have since been informed that this is not true and the CSR who stated that is mistaken.
> 
> ...


Actually, it was YOU that said you COULDN'T record HD without the HR20, and for you that's UNTRUE as mentioned. BTW, the cutoff time for MPEG2 is by most thoughts here a year + away. ANnhow since it seems you don't want to discuss this possibility with DirecTv (yeah YOU would have to call I'm afraid), you have no means of an argument for lawsuit IMO - as they can if they choose get you a HR10 and it would sove your porblems today - that would NOT in ANY WAY preclude you from changing back when YOU feel the HR20 is up to YOUT standards. (BTW, since recording HD is now so important, what were you doing before September?

Again, really sounds to me (going back to the first comment I made regarding your lawsuit position) like your interested more in money - as there is for YOU being in L.A. a 100% solution available to you today.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> BTW, the cutoff time for MPEG2 is by most thoughts here a year + away.


As evidenced by the recent talk of "crackdown" on subscribers that have HD LIL _ability_ _and_ HD DNS service, it is probable that the HR10 will become a non-option sooner than later.


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Actually, it was YOU that said you COULDN'T record HD without the HR20, and for you that's UNTRUE as mentioned. BTW, the cutoff time for MPEG2 is by most thoughts here a year + away. ANnhow since it seems you don't want to discuss this possibility with DirecTv (yeah YOU would have to call I'm afraid), you have no means of an argument for lawsuit IMO - as they can if they choose get you a HR10 and it would sove your porblems today - that would NOT in ANY WAY preclude you from changing back when YOU feel the HR20 is up to YOUT standards. (BTW, since recording HD is now so important, what were you doing before September?
> 
> Again, really sounds to me (going back to the first comment I made regarding your lawsuit position) like your interested more in money - as there is for YOU being in L.A. a 100% solution available to you today.


Scobuck:

Money where your mouth is sir. How does one record HD MPEG4 on D* without an HR20?

I can't even get tech support to answer the phone 1/2 the time without spending 10-20 minutes on hold every day I have a problem and listing to the suggestion that "please call back when the center is not so busy". I don't have the kind of time and D* is not going to refund my $299 while they switch me to a lesser HD box or SD recorder. I already have a working SD TIVO that I am going to use to back up my worthless HR20s. I've already made three calls about the boxes and not one CSR has offered to credit my account for my problems. In fact they say we can replace your box (to what another HR20 with the same issues or worse a refurbished one someone else had with the same issues - no thanks)

Their latest attempt 0x11b at fixing the HR20 is nearly a resounding mess and is creating more problems than ever. Read for yourself before you call the complaints my standards and my issues.

I don't need to make money I want my money back and credit for all my troubles on top of that. I don't want last gen technology that I have to replace again in a year. I don't want to spend hours in depositions in a class action suit, I don't want to waste my life with a POS that does not work when I paid for a working HD-DVR that records MPEG4 and MPEG 2 channels offered by D*.

Read some posts in the HR20 forum and get a clue - It's not just my standards we're talking about here its the standards that D* represented to its customers. I don't want special treatment I want a device that works as D* represents it will or a STATEMENT from D* that they screwed up with the device and will give all customers stuck with it (yes stuck with it unless they offer to recsind or cancel my lease (our leases) on it) credit for every month the DVR is not working as represented. That will get Corporate to notice the issues.

Since I know full well that is not going to happen and since I care about my fellow D* user who is not as sophisticated I may just proceed with a suit to recover my damages. D* can offer their settlement at the time of the suit and to the class if it ever gets that far. Since I would be a class member it seems that the MONEY you so often refer to would go to class counsel not me.

D* can consider the millions they may owe in class counsel fees in their next 10q to their shareholders. Once my lease is up or cancelled through the suit I am off to another company and will continue to vote with my pocket book for providers that don't require a commitment to non-functional DVRs.

So yes I guess I want money --- I want MY MONEY BACK on the junk D* provides that after 4 months of "work in progress" does not meet its warranty. I want my MONEY BACK on my DVR fees since October. I want my hours of time (that is worth MONEY) trouble shooting this POS for free for D* that has produced only worse results with the fundamental operation of the box back in the form of MONEY ON MY ACCOUNT BACK.

To much to ask? No. I think you should work for D* since you seem to have every solution in mind but fixing the problem with the box or offering customers an out of their leases and credits for their trouble.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Any chance you guys can take your feud to PM and let this thread get back on topic?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

S. DiThomas
Ok -please re-read what I posted to you, MAYBE you will get it. You live in So.Cal. (according at least to your profile.).

What channels do you get in MPEG4 that you CAN'T get in MPEG2 currently. I ask, because I live in NYC DMA. There is but one channel I can't get in MPEG2 (but only sometimes at that) that is ALSO on MPEG4, that is the YES-HD games (unless they are ALSO put on channel 95).

That being said - and it should apply for you also, please tell me what HD channels you receive in MPEG4 that you DON'T receive in MPEG2. Isn't that simple? And yes when I mentioned it the first time, I also mentioned it then that it is an option for YOU becasue you are in So.Cal. (L.A. DMA).I Didn't say it applied to everyone - but it should solve your issues for now - NEVER MADE LIGHT OF ANY OF YOUR ISSUES, and frankly gave you a solution you can implement TODAY.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

harsh said:


> As evidenced by the recent talk of "crackdown" on subscribers that have HD LIL _ability_ _and_ HD DNS service, it is probable that the HR10 will become a non-option sooner than later.


This is NOT an issue if you RESIDE WITHIN the L.A. OR NYC DMA. The MPEG2 network broadcasts are locals within those markets, have been and will continue to be until the conversion goes fully to MPEG4.

This poster resides WITHIN L.A. DMA.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Somebody needs his nap.


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