# Smaller markets



## Brett (Jan 14, 2003)

Now that Dish Network has taken the plunge into the Sherman, TX DMA a 150-210 ranked DMA market with network affiliates missing, will there be advances for more smaller markets?

The Salisbury, MD market which is growing in all counties, has PBS stations that are simply the repeators of MPT and WHYY 12 that are already carried on DirecTV. It really only has 2 local stations: WBOC 16 (CBS) and WMDT 47 (ABC). These stations operate WB and UPN stations, but they may be cable exclusive and DirecTV, for the matter, wouldnt want to add them anyways.

DirecTV has some spots remaining on the spotbeam(s) where Philadelphia stations are located. That spotbeam (TP 4 and TP 12) encompasses that market. WMCN-DT can be dropped, WTVE-51 location is unoccupied and will remain as such. WFPA-CA is well a class A station, that DirecTV is only voluntarily carrying. A national Telefutura feed could be chosen instead that will better serve the country. Thus the 2 stations could be squeezed in more easier than say Harrisburg-Lancaster market, a larger market, but is 6-7 stations.


--
OT and regarding Dish: Regarding MPT, why doesnt Dish Network move WMPT to the spotbeam where WETA is located, and move WETA to 61.5? Although 61.5 remains crammed, since the dropping of WMCN, a space has opened. This way, D.C. DMA viewers (with Dish Network) will be able to tune to MPT. The D.C. DMA encompasses several Maryland counties, and Dish well isnt offering Maryland Public Television to some of those customers who are already paying for a locals package there. Baltimore viewers would continue to see the WMPT signal instead from 110 though.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

According to the dealer chat today they will have 101 DMAs up by the end of the year those 101 markets cover 85.8% of the population. The Sherman ADA DMA was added because of available spotbeam space and the fact there was only 2 channels that had to be uplinked the rest of the channels were already uplinked for the Dallas DMA.


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## jhickman (Oct 8, 2003)

If Dish or DirecTV go to having smaller markets that don't have all of the networks, how will that work? Will the stations from the nearest larger market be used, or will a customer be able to get both markets?

For example, I live in the Jackson, TN area and have just recently been able to get the Memphis stations from Dish. The Jackson area stations are ABC, UPN (I actually only live about two miles away from their tower.), and PBS. Would I be able to get the remaining networks from Memphis, or would I still be able to get the entire package of channels from Memphis along with the Jackson stations?


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

For Salinas/Monterey, there is no ABC affiliate. There is one in San Francisco, which the cable companies use, but it is not available to Dish subs. You have to sub to the locals for $4.99 then pick your ABC for $1.50 per channel (LA, NY, DEN, ATL, or CHI).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Brett said:


> Now that Dish Network has taken the plunge into the Sherman, TX DMA a 150-210 ranked DMA market with network affiliates missing, will there be advances for more smaller markets?


 Maybe they will add Lafayette, IN - which IIRC is one channel. That's one easy way to get to 102 DMAs. 

JL


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## Marvin (Sep 14, 2003)

Brett said:


> Now that Dish Network has taken the plunge into the Sherman, TX DMA a 150-210 ranked DMA market with network affiliates missing, will there be advances for more smaller markets?
> 
> The Salisbury, MD market which is growing in all counties, has PBS stations that are simply the repeators of MPT and WHYY 12 that are already carried on DirecTV. It really only has 2 local stations: WBOC 16 (CBS) and WMDT 47 (ABC). These stations operate WB and UPN stations, but they may be cable exclusive and DirecTV, for the matter, wouldnt want to add them anyways.
> 
> DirecTV has some spots remaining on the spotbeam(s) where Philadelphia stations are located. That spotbeam (TP 4 and TP 12) encompasses that market. WMCN-DT can be dropped, WTVE-51 location is unoccupied and will remain as such. WFPA-CA is well a class A station, that DirecTV is only voluntarily carrying. A national Telefutura feed could be chosen instead that will better serve the country. Thus the 2 stations could be squeezed in more easier than say Harrisburg-Lancaster market, a larger market, but is 6-7 stations.


Living in said market, I would be extatic if a satellite company would add locals, it might actually give me reason to dump the C-Band dish finally, but Im not going to start holding my breath waiting for it to actually happen/
And from what I have read regarding HD, The UPN channel is being broadcast digitally and the WB might be as well. I have no reason to get a HD tv now but with a Dish or Directv set up I might also splurge for the HD set and reciever.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

If a channel is being broadcast digitally with sufficient strength, then you'd just need to get a HDTV receiver (either OTA only or E* or D*, as currently all HDTV receivers can tune in the HD or digital stations and down convert them for viewing on a old standard TV.) and an OTA antenna, you do not need an HDTV.

It does somewhat bother me that 18 DMA's smaller than mine have announced locals, while there is no plans for mine, but I understand that is mostly due to spot beam limitations. I have wondered how much "moving" has affected LIL announcements (i.e. look how many people have a Tyler, Texas service address!!)


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

It is probably just a matter of time... Dish now has 2 satellites to fill (105/121) with locals, plus an additional spot beam satellite for launch in 2005. They will probably have capacity for every DMA by the end of 2005. Now remember Dish does not negotiate for local carriage. If the local stations do not want to provide dish with a signal for the rate Dish wants to pay, they simply do not offer the LIL for the DMA. Alaska has had a dedicated spot beam on it for about 2 years before they finally got the local stations on board, even then 1 channel still held out.

If your DMA is not being picked up, yet tons of others around you are being picked up, it is quite likely Dish approached the local stations, had some holdouts and moved on to another DMA. Dish must be pretty busy right now signing up all these cities, they probably figure they can come back to the hold outs eventually, not worth time/effort at this time.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

Mike123abc said:


> If your DMA is not being picked up, yet tons of others around you are being picked up, it is quite likely Dish approached the local stations, had some holdouts and moved on to another DMA. Dish must be pretty busy right now signing up all these cities, they probably figure they can come back to the hold outs eventually, not worth time/effort at this time.


Mike
Is there a specific number of channels that holdout for Dish to say "screw it, we're going somewhere else" or is it a percentage?

Since Duluth has only 5 channels, I would be mad if Dish doesnt put them up because of one holdout..


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

This would be something to point out early next year when SHIVA is up for reexamination. Some markets simply lack a major network station (i.e. ABC), so can't a neighboring market's station be substituted?


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## Chris Freeland (Mar 24, 2002)

jhickman said:


> If Dish or DirecTV go to having smaller markets that don't have all of the networks, how will that work? Will the stations from the nearest larger market be used, or will a customer be able to get both markets?
> 
> For example, I live in the Jackson, TN area and have just recently been able to get the Memphis stations from Dish. The Jackson area stations are ABC, UPN (I actually only live about two miles away from their tower.), and PBS. Would I be able to get the remaining networks from Memphis, or would I still be able to get the entire package of channels from Memphis along with the Jackson stations?


What E* has done in a couple of cases where they have picked up a small market with a missing Big 4 network or two is to charge $3.99 or $4.99 or $5.99 depending on where the sub lived and weather or not they qualify for distant nets. For example, their is one small market in TX (forgot which one) that I believe is missing an ABC and a FOX I think, for those subs who do not qualify for neither a distant ABC or FOX, get their NBC and CBS from their local dma, and will be getting a PBS from Dallas and will be charged $3.99/mo, if they qualify for 1 of the missing networks they get that 1 from Dallas in addition to their locals and PBS for $4.99 and if they qulify for both they automatically get both from Dallas plus their locals and PBS for $5.99.



Mark Holtz said:


> This would be something to point out early next year when SHIVA is up for reexamination. Some markets simply lack a major network station (i.e. ABC), so can't a neighboring market's station be substituted?


Yes I agree, someone that lives in a small market with one or more missing Big 4 networks or PBS should not have to qualify to get them, E* and D* should be allowed to include a network substitute from either a neighboring dma or a distant net.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

Mike123abc said:


> If your DMA is not being picked up, yet tons of others around you are being picked up, it is quite likely Dish approached the local stations, had some holdouts and moved on to another DMA.


More than likely, its because we're the 118th DMA between the newly announced DMA 82 and 92. They're probably just out of spots capacity available to us. (plus the other DMA's have a lot of Pegasus territory which makes them ripe for a Dish LIL intro)


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Chris Freeland said:


> someone that lives in a small market with one or more missing Big 4 networks or PBS should not have to qualify to get them, E* and D* should be allowed to include a network substitute from either a neighboring dma or a distant net.


 If there were no Big 4 network to add I would agree without question. Otherwise DBS providers could simply refuse to negotiate with select stations since they could easily pick up the network from somewhere else. Those targeted stations would have to choose "Must Carry" or be shut out.

Personally I want SHVIA expanded so all satellite subscribers are permitted TWO of each network station of their choice from theirs or neighboring markets. All independents in those markets would be available, and all PBSs in their DMA. (PBS can fight over rights between their stations, since they are all "Must Carry".)

At a minimum one should be able to subscribe to all stations where the Class B signal reaches their home. There are a lot of DMAs where people more clearly pick up another DMA's station's OTA, but can't subscribe by DBS unless they cheat the system and "move".

JL


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## texas39 (Nov 11, 2003)

Chris Freeland said:


> What E* has done in a couple of cases where they have picked up a small market with a missing Big 4 network or two is to charge $3.99 or $4.99 or $5.99 depending on where the sub lived and weather or not they qualify for distant nets. For example, their is one small market in TX (forgot which one) that I believe is missing an ABC and a FOX I think, for those subs who do not qualify for neither a distant ABC or FOX, get their NBC and CBS from their local dma, and will be getting a PBS from Dallas and will be charged $3.99/mo, if they qualify for 1 of the missing networks they get that 1 from Dallas in addition to their locals and PBS for $4.99 and if they qulify for both they automatically get both from Dallas plus their locals and PBS for $5.99.
> 
> Yes I agree, someone that lives in a small market with one or more missing Big 4 networks or PBS should not have to qualify to get them, E* and D* should be allowed to include a network substitute from either a neighboring dma or a distant net.


I live in that Texas Town Sherman, We have a population of 35,000+
though we only have CBS and NBC, Dallas TX Stations are only 50-60 miles away from us and we qualify to get the FOX , ABC and soon PBS from there for only $5.99 a month.
latest count i have seen at least 2 or more dishes from dishnetwork in neighborhoods i have been through, lower or higher class areas..

also recently, I jokingly(without them knowing) called the local cable company and asked if they had any jobs available..i almost laughed when they said they just had one person laid off last week and another quit but they didnt need anyone..hmmm

and one of our dish retailers has an ad lookin for experienced installers..
i would apply but that would take away from my online and tv viewing time


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

In the program to add more and more locals without using spotbeams it is being wasteful of precious satellite capacity. IT is beaming signal into areas it does not and can not sell, using up satellite capacity for TV programming that could use a national footprint and be sold throughout the US. 

Support a call for the FCC to outlaw LIL (Local into Local) signals until such time as spot beams can be used in an effort to conserve our satellite resources.

Local broadcast stations have restrictive signal patterns and so should the satellite DBS providers be restrictive too, now that we do have the technology. Do not allow LIL until spot beams are available.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> Local broadcast stations have restrictive signal patterns and so should the satellite DBS providers be restrictive too, now that we do have the technology.


I hate to burst your bubble, but DBS are restrictive...its called "You only can get locals from your DMA and you have to qualify to get them"

Where I live, I can get both Minneapolis locals & Duluth locals off an antenna due to translators (Im too far from both main towers), yet I can only qualify for Minneapolis stations through Dish. But people with cable can get 3 more network stations than I can get (they can get NBC & ABC from Duluth & PBS from Brainerd...I could get Brainerd, but they cant get a good signal to the POP due to being 150+ miles from it)

Is that fair??

Dish is putting up a new satellite that will have spotbeams, allowing SuperDish to have spotbeams. They just want to get ahead of Direct in the LIL game (since Direct hasnt launched their new satellite yet)


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Tony- You missed the point. I'm not talking about where they market the locals which I do understand is being done into the local region, I'm talking about the technical fact that the signal for that local market can and is now extending over the entire country, yet they don't sell by legal restriction to other than the local market. Thus they are wasting satellite resources. Also, I am not claiming that they now have enough spot beam resources to fulfill the needs of every local market. What I am saying is that the DBS provider SHOULD be restricted to transmitting locals only on spot beam and be denied license to broadcast that signal into areas they will not sell it. This would free up much of the satellite national capability for national intended markets while it will delay the LIL proliferation until such time as spot beams to do all get launched.

As for getting ahead of the competition- Well, sionce when has any company decided in favor of conservation and the environment over beating the competition in sales of an environmentally unsafe product. That is why there are environmental laws to control companies from being irresponsible in this not so profitable area. If we didn't have local broadcast regulatuions requiring local stations to errect expensice phased tower systems for protection and directivity, most stations would simply broadcast without concern until they were being infringed upon by another competing station.

Finally, the debate also extends to the irresponsibility of the subscriber who just wants a simple solution to have his locals all arriving from one box, so for $5.99 he pays for otherwise free reception on the locals. Many of the people, like myself have no problem getting locals free, but chose to pay for them via the satellite or cable. 
Those of you who do have problems with locals don't apply to this as you are justified in reception even if the provider is wasting satellite resources to give you locals. 

Here's my counter argumant- IF the DBS provider is allowed to rain down signal over the entire country then they should be allowed to sell that signal anywhere in the country. 

Finally, for those Canadians to the north, your arguments do not apply either because until the governments agree on a signal reciprocity it becomes a separate issue than what I'm talking about here. 

I feel that LIL is the single biggest waste of satellite use today and with spot beams' that waste could be greatly diminished. No more locals until their signals can be restricted to the area they can be sold.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

Now, many people here will say that the #1 reason for LIL is Tivo or DVR. Without LIL, the user would need a seperate box or a much more expensive DVR / Tivo with built in encryption. 

Before the widespread availability of an affordable Tivo or PVR, I often wondered why all sat boxes could not include the same tuner that $40 VCR's included. For a little IRD programming, they could integrate the OTA tuner with sat guide, like is currently available with the HDTV tuners. (Integrated OTA is the main reason I'd like a HDTV tuner, even though my old TV only has RCA composite inputs)


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> Thus they are wasting satellite resources.


Yes, but aren't the resources THEIRS? I mean, they own that resource -- if they want to waste it by broadcasting Underwater Basketweaving 24/7 on 16 channels -- well, they have that right.

I see your point -- but I see it as an issue with Dish's decisions -- not a LEGAL issue. I don't think that they should be denied a license because they happen to decide to use the bandwidth that way in order to stay competitive.

There is a tradeoff between wasting bandwidth and taking too long to get locals into homes. If they waited until it was all spotbeam capable, they would likely suffer significantly from a financial standpoint -- then that would lead to lack of funds for other spotbeam locals.

So, they made a decision to waste the bandwidth to get locals to more customers faster. Whether or not that was a good decision from a marketing/financial standpoint, we'll have to see -- but I don't see it as a legal reason to deny a license.



> This would free up much of the satellite national capability for national intended markets while it will delay the LIL proliferation until such time as spot beams to do all get launched.


Correct -- and this delay would likely cause financial loss to Dish. People that are signing up NOW because of local availability wouldn't do that if they went your way. This would limit funds -- and leave LESS available to buy those channels "for national intended markets."



> As for getting ahead of the competition- Well, sionce when has any company decided in favor of conservation and the environment over beating the competition in sales of an environmentally unsafe product.


So, you believe that because they are piping Flint lcoals out nationally instead of the Basket Weaving channel that you wanted, that it is more environmentally unsafe?

I just don't think that we have any sound evidence that the difference between wasting bandwidth with more national locals as opposed to doing spotbeams with more "national" channels is significant from a health/environmental/conservation standpoint.



> That is why there are environmental laws to control companies from being irresponsible in this not so profitable area. If we didn't have local broadcast regulatuions requiring local stations to errect expensice phased tower systems for protection and directivity, most stations would simply broadcast without concern until they were being infringed upon by another competing station.


But there are differences between OTA broadcasts and satellite feeds when it comes to health, power, and interference. It's not the same from an "environmental law" standpoint.



> Here's my counter argumant- IF the DBS provider is allowed to rain down signal over the entire country then they should be allowed to sell that signal anywhere in the country.


Different laws -- different reasons. They aren't allowed to sell it everywhere in order to "protect" the local broadcast affiliates. Whether or not that is appropriate is another issue -- but it has nothing to do with spotbeams and where the signal is currently being sent. It has to do with ancient DMAs and "unfair competition."



> I feel that LIL is the single biggest waste of satellite use today and with spot beams' that waste could be greatly diminished. No more locals until their signals can be restricted to the area they can be sold.


They bought the space -- they can do with it as they please as far as legal issues are concerned, in my opinion. I don't think denying a license is appropriate simply because they didn't spotbeam the local data. You may have an argument against Dish's decisions on that -- but I just don't see it as reason to deny a license.

Should we rally to have a license revoked/denied because Dish has decided to broadcast RealityTV since lots of us don't watch it and feel that it is a waste of bandwidth? 

- John...


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

> if they want to waste it by broadcasting Underwater Basketweaving 24/7 on 16 channels -- well, they have that right.


Lets not give Charlie any ideas...... :lol:


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

Don Landis said:


> What I am saying is that the DBS provider SHOULD be restricted to transmitting locals only on spot beam and be denied license to broadcast that signal into areas they will not sell it. This would free up much of the satellite national capability for national intended markets while it will delay the LIL proliferation until such time as spot beams to do all get launched.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Support a call for the FCC to outlaw LIL (Local into Local) signals until such time as spot beams can be used in an effort to conserve our satellite resources.


Conserve for what? HBO Comedy? Style Channel? Better picture quality?

The reality is that LIL is up on national beams because it will draw more consumers than either of the above pay channels, or those like it. I have always tended to agree that local channels on satellite is a waste of space, but unfortunately, the public demands local channels via DBS. If the public didn't demand it, you'd see DirecTV or Dish Network start to take the local stations down. That isn't happening anytime soon.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

LIL proliferation is up on national beams because they don't have the spot beams to make available at this time. I'm not saying they are in violation of any specific laws. Of course they are legal. I am saying that the FCC should have regulated the LIL activation based on the availablility of the best technology suited for LIL which is spot beams.

There are no TV networks specializing in underwater basket weaving. You are being obsurd so I respond with obsurdity. By not having all the LIL's hogging the national spread of signal and reserving national programming such as, Starz HD, Cinemax, HD, INHD1 and 2, Bravo HD, etc. Many of these could have been launched immediately and these do appeal to a national audience. Say you don't like HDTV? OK but I'm sure there are a number of national SD channels not currently offered by dish because they just don't have the space to carry every network.

I also agree, but only on a personal level, that the home shopping channels are way over done. BUT, please respect that I may have a far greater understanding of this type of tv than you do and how effective it is. These types of networks, nationally, have a great deal of appeal to the general TV audience. My business produces similar TV programming and I know it works and produces good revenue. Indeed, making more bandwidth available may encourage more shopping channels but these do justify their national footprint because they are viewed on a national level.

Business philosophy- As long as a company is not violating any laws, it is indeed justified in using the licensed satellite resources for anything it wants, including the ficticious Basketweaving channels. I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with the way the FCC did not regulate this irresponsible waste of the resources tieing up huge chunks of satellite bandwidth to broadcast it where no one will benefit. 
I suppose if you are allowed to broadcast into an area then we should be able to subscribe and receive those signals.

Does LIL pay the bill? It probably does in the larger markets but the same resources is tied up for a much smaller market. I believe that the bulk of the thrust to proliferate LIL in market numbers is mostly driven my bragging rights and hype, a marketing game of one upsmanship, and not necessarily by profits. I also believe that HDTV is equally driven by the same bragadotia and that the real core of profit for DBS is the basic core programming subscriptions to include the home shopping channels and the comedy channels etc.

edit-
The public does not demand to have LIL on national satellite beams. There are a few people who probably would if it were legal to subscribe to them but since it isn't there isn't much outcry for subscribbing to, say Philadelphis channels when you live in Dallas. The reality is that DBS companies saw a way to market and obtain revenoues by offering _ a few _ of the locals but the FCC said they needed to offer all or at least a huge number of locals with more being added as time progressed. It came with the territory. The real "demands being made were not public at all but a deal struck between the DBS companies who wanted a few nationals in the largest markets but the FCC made them do far more. With that FCC mandate, DBS has embarked on a mission to "make it pay" noy that they got locked into this.

Again, I do not fault DBS or the idea of LIL. I just feel that the proliferation of this is too fast too soon for the launch of scheduled spot beams.

ON a personal note- I actually went for 2 years without the need to watch local broadcast TV. I did not miss it at all! Today, I do watch it, about 2 hours a week but only 2 shows I like on HDTV. So with that said I also do not fit the mold of the average couch potato who finds the usual network TV of canned laughter and what I think are shallow sitcom plots fascinating enough to pay for LIL.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

> Does LIL pay the bill? It probably does in the larger markets but the same resources is tied up for a much smaller market. I believe that the bulk of the thrust to proliferate LIL in market numbers is mostly driven my bragging rights and hype, a marketing game of one upsmanship, and not necessarily by profits.


D* and E* got into the DBS market because of bragging. We offer ### channels to everyone in the nation, all in "digital quality" If bragging does not provide a business and marketing case, then they should of only launched a 26 channel A/B system.

D* and E* have generally reached the plateau of users who want their service due to great technology, or complete lack of choice. They need LIL because the general public (Huge Huge market) insists on locals. Could they of initially offered better receivers to integrate OTA with sat and avoid most of this mess? yes.



> I also believe that HDTV is equally driven by the same bragadotia and that the real core of profit for DBS is the basic core programming subscriptions to include the home shopping channels and the comedy channels etc.


There's certaintly a smaller margin on bandwidth used for HDTV vs total subscription revenue. Without HDTV services, they'd loose their market perception as the technology leader. Also the DBS providers know that HDTV is going to be the future of TV viewing. Without HDTV, they'd wind up going bankrupt in the future. Sure it provides some nice bragging rights, but if that were the sole factor, then the implementation would seem less structured then the slow current rollout. 
Personally, I see HDNET as more about bragging, and a hope that it'll be viable in the future.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2003)

Brett said:


> Now that Dish Network has taken the plunge into the Sherman, TX DMA a 150-210 ranked DMA market with network affiliates missing, will there be advances for more smaller markets?
> 
> The Salisbury, MD market which is growing in all counties, has PBS stations that are simply the repeators of MPT and WHYY 12 that are already carried on DirecTV. It really only has 2 local stations: WBOC 16 (CBS) and WMDT 47 (ABC). These stations operate WB and UPN stations, but they may be cable exclusive and DirecTV, for the matter, wouldnt want to add them anyways.
> 
> ...


I don't see how small market stations, let's say 175+ will survive. They're faced with the cost of new digital equipment, a high-def transmitter costs the same amount in New York as it does in Glendive MT.

And the advertising dollars just aren't there to cover the cap-ex they need to make to remain viable.

They will evolve into some sort of internet news and information channel, but as existing broadcasters, it doesn't look good for them.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

Well, I guess smaller markets could look to multicasting, or additional pay services(like Disney's current PPV DVR via the digital channel in some markets), to provide multiple concurrent ad revenue they could not previously offer. Or, as many current markets do, just pass a up-convert. (Although the networks will eventually stop providing the analog main feeds)
There's a reason that someone owns the current station (possibly bragging) and the possibility to make money. If they leave, some other business owner or conglomerate will think the same thing for HDTV.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> By not having all the LIL's hogging the national spread of signal and reserving national programming such as, Starz HD, Cinemax, HD, INHD1 and 2, Bravo HD, etc. Many of these could have been launched immediately and these do appeal to a national audience.


According to a chart in another thread, here is what is on CONUS & Spots for Locals

119 CONUS 16 
119 SPOTS 235 
110 CONUS 57 
110 SPOTS 237

so 73 local channels are on CONUS...start taking away the locals that HAVE to be on CONUS
Supers 5..these are on 119
LA & NY locals (for people who qualify) 9..these are on 119
PBS for those who qualify 1..this is on 119

So all (except 1) is required to be on 119 CONUS

Distants..there are Atlanta, Chicago, Denver..
Atlanta has 6
Denver has 4
Chicago has 4
Dallas use to be a distant..no longer, but there are people who are grandfathed..theres 4
So when you take off the locals that HAVE to be on CONUS, you've got 39 channels left

The following are on CONUS and whether I question some, it probably has to do with Spotbeam space

Roanoke, VA & Little Rock, AR have 12
Lexington, KY & Knoxville, TN have 10
Jackson, MS has 6
Springfield, MO has 7 (has to due with SuperDish)
There is 4 that I cant find where they are.

You have to remember they can fit 2 HD channels per transponder..conversely, they can fit up to 12 LIL channels per transponder.

Its all about the Benjamin's


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

Yes, but my guess would be that DonLandis is arguing that even for a bird like 121, that all of those new locals that are not spotbeam should have been held until they could be spotbeam...

I can see his argument -- I just don't necessarily agree with it. 

- John...


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

Greg Bimson said:


> I have always tended to agree that local channels on satellite is a waste of space, but unfortunately, the public demands local channels via DBS.





DonLandis said:


> The public does not demand to have LIL on national satellite beams.


The public, in the Jackson, Mississippi, DMA doesn't care that their locals are being offered by DirecTV on a national beam. Nor do the residents of 17 other markets that DirecTV currently transmits on beams that broadcast to the entire US. They just care that their locals are being offered.

Why should the FCC step in and tell the DBS companies how to allocate transponder use? So that you may be able to get more HDTV? The DBS companies believe that LiL is more profitable than HD.


DonLandis said:


> The reality is that DBS companies saw a way to market and obtain revenoues by offering a few of the locals but the FCC said they needed to offer all or at least a huge number of locals with more being added as time progressed. It came with the territory. The real "demands being made were not public at all but a deal struck between the DBS companies who wanted a few nationals in the largest markets but the FCC made them do far more. With that FCC mandate, DBS has embarked on a mission to "make it pay" noy that they got locked into this.


Not quite.

The FCC never made the DBS companies offer more locals. DirecTV or Dish Network could stop all local transmission immediately, if they wanted. However, if either provider were to offer local channels in a market with a copyright exception provided by Congress, then all locals that deliver a usable signal in that market need to be available. This was a law passed by Congress, not an FCC mandate.

Subscriber acquisition is the single most important reason that Dish Network offers local channels in 100 markets, as of yesterday. It is the reason why DirecTV will offer 105 markets after their spot beam satellite is launched early next year. It is also the reason why DirecTV and Dish Network are using national beams to transmit local channels. We don't have to like it. We don't really have to accept it. The FCC will not step in and direct how locals are to be transmitted.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> I am saying that the FCC should have regulated the LIL activation based on the availablility of the best technology suited for LIL which is spot beams.


 And therin lies the rub ...
Spotbeams are NOT AVAILABLE for the channels they wish to put up. In most cases existing Spotbeams are full or not covering desired areas. The ONLY available space remaining is CONUS.

So even by your own rule use of CONUS is acceptable. It IS the best location AVAILABLE at this time for those channels. When a new bird is launched there will be spotbeams to replace CONUS beams.

Don't get your knickers in a twist. This is a better use of those transponders. There are few channels that can be sold for $5.99 per six -- even one HD taking the place of those six channels won't bring in $5.99 per channel.

JL


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## cjeverson (Sep 16, 2003)

Does anybody know for sure who the #101 city is that supposedly will be carried by Dish by the end of 2003? 



boba said:


> According to the dealer chat today they will have 101 DMAs up by the end of the year those 101 markets cover 85.8% of the population. The Sherman ADA DMA was added because of available spotbeam space and the fact there was only 2 channels that had to be uplinked the rest of the channels were already uplinked for the Dallas DMA.


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

cjeverson
Welcome to the forums! :welcome_s 

Savannah, GA is uplinked and ready to go (I think) so I think they will be #101

I know Duluth, MN (I see you're from Eveleth) is "supposedly" scheduled for January launch on Dish500 (not SuperDish). This was on a November retailer Charlie Chat. I havent seen anything since then. I really would like them to be # 101


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I look at it this way, Dish Network could choose markets with only a few stations in it that may have only half as many people in that DMA than they would in a DMA with twice as many stations, so it would equal out, twice the stations, twice the people, sometimes a little more than half the people in a market with only half the stations, making it better off to have two smaller markets than one larger market, not only because of that but the smaller markets more likely to get agreements with those stations.


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

I think that its only fair that everyone regardless of market size be provided an ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, PBS, WB, and UPN station for the $5.99 price. Markets that do not have one of these affiliates should not have to pay extra $1.50 per channel for additional stations so they get each network affiliate. 

Fox example if a small market is without WB, why should they have to pay $5.99 + $1.50 just to get all stations while the bigger areas get all for the $5.99.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Life isn't fair!

JL


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## texas39 (Nov 11, 2003)

Sherman Getting its PBS station from Dallas anytime soon? They told us Jan-2004


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## jstrick (Feb 7, 2004)

I live in the Tupelo-Columbus MS dma in the Tupelo Area.Would it be possible to receive the Memphis dma or would the spotbeam not allow me to do that? I live only about 88 miles from Memphis. Thanks for your help


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## uncdanwrong (Feb 11, 2004)

When SHIVA is extended it might be possible for a small DMA such as Zanesville, OH to get their missing major networks from an adjacent DMA but distants except for white areas, non-DMA areas, and RV's might disappear.


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