# Article: Satellite & Cable: Give Us TiVo!



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

*Satellite & Cable: Give Us TiVo!*



> If you are a DIRECTV subscriber, chances are you'll want a new HD DVR.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


See the rest of the article at: *TV Predictions*

Note; This article is in the HR20 forum, specifically because it is discussion the HR0


----------



## TMullenJr (Feb 23, 2006)

No link Earl.


----------



## deebeeeff (Oct 10, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> *Satellite & Cable: Give Us TiVo!*
> 
> See the rest of the article at: *http://www.tvpredictions.com/davistwo111306.htm*
> 
> Note; This article is in the HR20 forum, specifically because it is discussion the HR0


Huh?


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ooops... Yah need text, to have a hyperlink..


----------



## NoGoSlo (Nov 6, 2006)

Good article. I completely agree. I would pay more for the HD Tivo. Although I haven't had as much trouble as some with the HR20, I still get audio dropouts and occasional pixelation with the new software upload.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Here is my take on the article (like you thought I wasn't going to have one).

-) How come TiVo seems to get a pass, and doesn't do anything wrong? I mean the T3 has had it's share of issues in it's first three months.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=51

It now has already received software updates... 
And shouldn't they have gotten it right out of the box? I mean they are TiVo after all, and they have been doings this now for 7 years.

And this isn't even going into the problems that the SD units have.

I don't like comparing the DVR+ line to the TiVo line... but this specific article is directly doing that. We have blog after blog, article after article lately stating how many issues there are with the HR20....

Where are the similar articles about the TiVo Series 3, the Series 2, and so on? Based on Forums (such as TiVoCommunity... there are plenty of people reporting issues), and that same argument is the basis for most of these blogs.

Am I saying that the DVR+ series is perfect... hell know... I know better. But if you are going to use one set of criteria for one line of product, you should use the same line for the other.

-) 2nd "Why should TiVo get a pass"... Do think it is just DirecTV and the Cable-Co's being stubborn and wanting to push TiVo out... or could there be something on TiVo's side of the negotiating table that these companies don't like? Why would these companies opt to spend the multi-millions of dollars to design, build, write, support, promote, ect... their own units... and then have to "defend" them against the household name... TiVo ?

Sure Comcast and Cox have a deals... but the Comcast one is now 2+ years old, and the box STILL isn't released (there have been reports for the last 6 months that it "near" release, but regardless it still isn't here, and is reported to going to be running on 3+ year old hardware... for an extra fee..... ) The COX one is no where near on the radar yet.

-) MPEG-4 on this scale hasn't been done before... it simply hasn't. MPEG-4 has been around for a while, but Cable Co's are not using MPEG-4 compression, Dish Network has, and they are having simillar issues with their live-time MPEG-4 compression.... It is not like DiVX where the engine can run for 2-3 hours to create the MPEG-4 file.... this is live time compression, of "live" TV programming

-) I don't know if was the same author, but it was TV Predictions... that was clammering for the box to be released.... that things where slipping... Now they are saying it was RUSHED, and shouldn't have been released..... It seems that they want it both ways.
You can argue that the T3 was rushed to market as well....

-) "Hundreds of thousands of DIRECTV customers are getting really upset"; Huh? What is that based off of? Just last week DireCTV stated only 1.6 subscribers have HD services.... so are you saying more then 300,000 of them have the HR20? And they are all upset with it?

I just don't get why everyone wants to bury the unit 3 months in. 
The information is out there about the unit.... That is what it is there for, so you can make your own informed choice about if you want to go ahead with the HR20, or wait for something else. No one is forcing you into an HR20...

If you want an HR10... they are still out there.

I wouldn't pay a dime more for a TiVo powered unit... why... after using TiVo for 6 years... And then using the DVR+ series for the last year...
It doesn't have any features in it, for my usage pattern... that warrant a extra cost.

Should they possible offer a 2nd, 3rd series receiver line... possible.
But, when the UTV series came out... it wasn't flocked to for a higher cost... Sure Microsoft pulled the plug on the project, but you would think that someone would try to buy that from Microsoft and continue with it... if it was worth the cost and effort to compete with the TiVo product.


----------



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Are you listening D*TV????


----------



## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

Let's not forget one of the main reasons DirecTV went in-house for the HD DVR: DirecTV wants *all* of their receivers to have the same look, feel and interface.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Greg Bimson said:


> Let's not forget one of the main reasons DirecTV went in-house for the HD DVR: DirecTV wants *all* of their receivers to have the same look, feel and interface.


As a side note to that...

Now that I have 5 different "receivers"
DTivo
Flip-Top (D10)
Humax (D11)
R15 and HR20

I can now really see the benefits of having a very similar GUI accross the different receiver types....


----------



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I just don't get why everyone wants to bury the unit 3 months in.
> The information is out there about the unit.... That is what it is there for, so you can make your own informed choice about if you want to go ahead with the HR20, or wait for something else. No one is forcing you into an HR20...
> 
> If you want an HR10... they are still out there.


Earl, no disrespect but PLEASE!!! Officially from D*TV, you CANNOT get an HR10, you CANNOT get MPEG4 channels from D*TV UNLESS you have an HR20, and what "something else" is D*TV working on that's worth waiting for????? :nono2:

The article was short, sweet and to the point...Tivo's DVR was STABLE, RELIABLE and SLOOOOW -- it appears the HR20 is FAST, but at the expense of stability and reliability. I do not know about you but if I HAD a choice from D*TV, I would take the first choice, wouldn't you????


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As a side note to that...
> 
> Now that I have 5 different "receivers"
> DTivo
> ...


I think everyone would agree that a common GUI is generally a good thing, what is more important is that it actually works. That is the issue with the HR20 it is not a reliable DVR, it does not record I have 8 lost or corrupted recordings since the new code was released. These same bugs have been in the box since it was released. Forget the GUI they need to work on basic functionality.


----------



## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

I would pay per month for true commercial skip. I like the HR20 but the slip is tedious. The skip on the HR10 is sooo fast. As fast as the menus are with the HR20 compared to the HR10, the main function for me is playback of recorded shows, and the lack of a skip is a true step backwards.

I wish we had a choice with the HD DVRS now also. I liked the old days with D* when there were so many receivers to choose from. It's true how a lot of this is related to streamlining.

I wish TiVo could negotiate a new deal to make one of these for DirecTV. To basically make it obsolete, is just plain sad.


----------



## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

btmoore said:


> I think everyone would agree that a common GUI is generally a good thing


Nope. DVRs and receivers have drastically different uses and need different UIs.

I only say this because you said "everyone". I don't expect everyone (or possibly even most) to agree with what I said, either.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I wouldn't pay a dime more for a TiVo powered unit... why... after using TiVo for 6 years... And then using the DVR+ series for the last year...
> It doesn't have any features in it, for my usage pattern... that warrant a extra cost.


I Assume that your usage pattern does not require that the DVR actually record what you tell it to.

For me I would pay an extra buck or two for a HD DVR that actually worked, this unwatchable and partial bug crap is just bad product management. If you are going to release a DVR it needs to R correctly, I don't care if it is TiVo or D*.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

perilous said:


> Earl, no disrespect but PLEASE!!! Officially from D*TV, you CANNOT get an HR10, you CANNOT get MPEG4 channels from D*TV UNLESS you have an HR20, and what "something else" is D*TV working on that's worth waiting for????? :nono2:
> 
> The article was short, sweet and to the point...Tivo's DVR was STABLE, RELIABLE and SLOOOOW -- it appears the HR20 is FAST, but at the expense of stability and reliability. I do not know about you but if I HAD a choice from D*TV, I would take the first choice, wouldn't you????


No disrespect taken (and no one should think they can't argue with me, on my opinions)...

You are right... You can't get one from DirecTV any more... They actually stopped building them nearly 18 months ago. But you can still get them from a few vendors, and the used market.

But you can still use the HR10 to get OTA....

But as of TODAY, right now... the HR10 is still a viable option. Sure you can't get MPEG-4 LIL-HD's, but I also can't get Interactive Content on any of the DTiVo series. So just like in most things, if you want to use the newer technology... you need the newer hardware.

There is no one that says you HAVE to get an HR20 today as your only HD DVR option. Now, once all the HD-SAT based content is MPEG-4 then that definently becomes an option.... but who is to say the HR20 won't be stable by then? (As in my usage in my home, I find it just as stable as my HR10)

So yes, Today.... You can say the HR10 is more stable then the HR20... then again, it is 3 years old (since design time)... so I would HOPE it would be more stable... 
But what about "tomorrow"...


----------



## ShapeGSX (Sep 17, 2006)

perilous said:


> Earl, no disrespect but PLEASE!!! Officially from D*TV, you CANNOT get an HR10, you CANNOT get MPEG4 channels from D*TV UNLESS you have an HR20, and what "something else" is D*TV working on that's worth waiting for????? :nono2:
> 
> The article was short, sweet and to the point...Tivo's DVR was STABLE, RELIABLE and SLOOOOW -- it appears the HR20 is FAST, but at the expense of stability and reliability. I do not know about you but if I HAD a choice from D*TV, I would take the first choice, wouldn't you????


Series 2 Tivos with the latest updated software are actually MUCH faster than the HR20 at just about everything. The only place where the Tivo is slower is when you re-order something in the prioritizer (can't think of the Tivo name for that right now).

Series 1 Tivos (I'm still using one) were very slow. Series 2 Tivos before they released the latest software were also very slow. As far as I know, the HR10 just got an update to the latest software, too.


----------



## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> -) How come TiVo seems to get a pass, and doesn't do anything wrong?.


Go Earl!

Absolutely spot on, nothing's ever TiVo's fault, it walks on water, and it's sh!+ don't stink. No other DVR is even worth considering, even if it offers features TiVo can't/won't. Puhlease!


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

My take --- 

I support choice. I do think it's a shame for both sides that the D*-TiVo relationship came to an end, since it seemed to have been a benefit to customers as well as TiVo. (I also presume that high customer satisfaction was a benefit to D*). 

I understand the business models in play but I think both satellite and cable companies owe it to consumers to provide choice in hardware. I'm sure there's decent money to be made in hardware, but there's also decent money to be lost in poor customer satisfaction. I believe that if the cable companies, telcos, and satellite companies were to license their technology to outsiders like TiVo instead of relying on in-house solutions or tightly bound vendor relationships (like Motorola has) the result would be overall higher satisfaction. 

CableCard was supposed to fix this, at least for cable companies, but so far it's been a flop IMHO. There's no "big stick" or groundswell from consumers demanding it. 

Right now I look at cell phone companies, who offer a variety of phones, some branded with the carrier's name, some branded with the OEM name. This works - people buy the phone they want and some spend nothing and some spend a lot. Some people even buy "unlocked" phones and choose their carrier (technology permitting). 

Certainly there will always be those who buy the lowest cost solution but if we had some choice, some would go further. That's why companies like weaknees have succeeded. 

As a D* customer I would love to see a line of receivers and DVRs with different capabilities. At one point D* had several different receivers, all D* or RCA branded but some had S-Video, Dolby, etc. 

Clearly it's going to get more competitive as everyone ramps up to try to provide the same services. One would think that all the providers would be looking for ways to distinguish themselves with unique products and services. Offering a full line of hardware would be one way of doing that.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> I Assume that your usage pattern does not require that the DVR actually record what you tell it to.
> 
> For me I would pay an extra buck or two for a HD DVR that actually worked, this unwatchable and partial bug crap is just bad product management. If you are going to release a DVR it needs to R correctly, I don't care if it is TiVo or D*.


47 Season passes accross the two DVRs.

The HR20's ARE my primary DVR in my main viewing room.

-) I have had one recording missed now in 3 months. (and that was back in early September, and I am not 100% sure it wasn't my fault)

-) I have either been lucky, or just hasn't occured... I haven't had the partial bug.

-) I have had one or two non-playable recordings, but those where pre version D8

-) I have had to reset the boxes, but... I have had to do that with my HR10 
over the years as well

-) I have seen some "pixelizing" and audio hiccups , but nothing "vastly" greater then what I saw via OTA with the HR10

So yes... In my usage, the HR20's are no worse then my HR10 was.
So either I am a little more used to the quirks of HD broadcasting, mixed in with DVR usage. And this was with having my first HR10 die because of a hard drive, about 3 months in (Which ultimately resulted in me stopping to watch Smallville as I lost 6 cued up episodes), the 2nd one returned because of a bad HDMI card, then the 3rd I gave up and spent $250 on an HDMI DVD player, so that the HR10 could go on the component input instead.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 47 Season passes accross the two DVRs.
> 
> The HR20's ARE my primary DVR in my main viewing room.
> 
> ...


I have 48 Season passes on one HR20. What is your split. maybe this is where the HR20 falls apart.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> I have 48 Season passes on one HR20. What is your split. maybe this is where the HR20 falls apart.


I have 21 on the one, and 27 on the other.

At the core, I kinda have them broken up by networks.
CBS and ABC are on one system
NBC and FOX are on the other

I do this primarily to avoid conflicts when programs are moved around.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bidger said:


> Go Earl!
> 
> Absolutely spot on, nothing's ever TiVo's fault, it walks on water, and it's sh!+ don't stink. No other DVR is even worth considering, even if it offers features TiVo can't/won't. Puhlease!


I can only report based on my experience. My hr20 has failed to perform on basic DVR functionality. I had more failed recording last night (5 all the unwatchable bug) than my sat-t60 has had in it's 6 years of operations. I can't speak for any of the other tivo products or how well they work. The products I have worked with have worked great, it is a shame that the HR20 can't even record correctly, and we are not even covering the long on going changing issues with trick plays on the HR20. I am no ones fanboy, I just want a product that works.


----------



## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

I have around 60 or so in my primary viewing location, which is why the R15 or HR20 just won't cut it there.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Please, let's not have this turn into another one of these posts:

"HR20 is a POS/HR20 is great"
"Earl is God/Earl is a DTV Shill"
"This works for me/This never worked for me"

We've got a lot of those already. btmoore, I really respect your opinions and always enjoy your posts even when we disagree. What's your take on the article at TV Predictions?


----------



## belboz (Oct 15, 2006)

I am sure I am biased somewhat, but my two cents.

Disclaimer:

I have had TiVo's since they first came out. I bought a 14 hour unit when it hit the market. Loved it and loved that it ran Linux. I wrote the first program to automate adding a second drive to the TiVo ( I wrote BlessTiVo, some of you may know me as Mr. Belboz on tivocommunity.com).

In all those years I never really had any major problems with the TiVo. I did have some issues with IR control of a directv box. I switched to some RCA DirecTV receivers and uses the serial port control of the receiver to fix that.

I eventually upgraded to the DirecTV/TiVo combo units. Currently have 3 SD DirecTV/TiVo combos, 1 HR10, and 1 HR20.

So I have a long TiVo history.

Now on to the HR20. I am on my third unit and finally got one that worked. I have seen some things I really like about it, and some things I really don't like.

I like the following.

Easy to set something to record or a series link. No waiting like on the tivo's. 

Fast prioritizer. Again no waiting

Caller ID. Always wanted this in my TiVo (without hacking). It is flaky on my HR20, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Hard Drive Space usage display is nice

What I don't like about the HR20

The big one is it fails to record shows sometimes (I have 0xe3). To me this is the cardinal rule to get right in a DVR.

I have had some lock ups. These are a real pain.

I don't like the remote layout, but this is minor as I will probably get a Harmony remote.

All and all I think the HR20 has a lot of promise. It has some glaring bugs that still need to be ironed out though. I know it works close to perfectly for some people on here, and to me that is more troublesome than anything. Since it means some of these bugs may be tougher to reproduce and squash by DirecTV.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have 21 on the one, and 27 on the other.
> 
> At the core, I kinda have them broken up by networks.
> CBS and ABC are on one system
> ...


that is a fairly light load, I am starting to think the bugs are assoicated to the load and frequency of use.


----------



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 47 Season passes accross the two DVRs.
> 
> The HR20's ARE my primary DVR in my main viewing room.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately not all are as lucky as you Earl....there's just too many problems being reported here and elsewhere to just say that there are just an unlucky few who have problems with the unit OR to rationalize that this is no different than the HR10 launch.

IMHO this launch IS a disaster for D* and unless these boxes can be made more RELIABLE, PQ improves if/when capacity is FINALLY available (HD-LITE stops), and there are more HD channels available, how can anyone sugarcoat how screwed up this is for D*???? I have had D*TV since 1994 and this performance is just SAD!!!! :nono:


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

perilous said:


> Unfortunately not all are as lucky as you Earl....there's just too many problems being reported here and elsewhere to just say that there are just an unlucky few who have problems with the unit OR to rationalize that this is no different than the HR10 launch.
> 
> IMHO this launch IS a disaster for D* and unless these boxes can be made more RELIABLE, PQ improves if/when capacity is FINALLY available (HD-LITE stops), and there are more HD channels available, how can anyone sugarcoat how screwed up this is for D*???? I have had D*TV since 1994 and this performance is just SAD!!!! :nono:


I am not saying that the problems are not real... but I am not the only that hasn't had issues.

There is no sugarcoating squat... I am just trying to point out that the "other" product, isn't having that great of time with their rollout.

I have not denied the exists of any issues that the unit is having (that someone reports), and try to stop anyone saying the otherwise.... as it just isn't true... plain and simple. We have not reached a point, where the HR20 has earned the right, that we blame other factors BEFORE blaming the unit.

TiVo has gotten to that point, that we try to rule out all other options, before we blame it's hardware or software.

The HR20 is the most complex system DirecTV has released ever. I have been around technology way to long to give up on a piece of equipment, or software only 3 months after it's release.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> that is a fairly light load, I am starting to think the bugs are assoicated to the load and frequency of use.


For what it's worth, before I got my second unit, I had the first unit with 40+ recordings, and didn't have any notable differences in reliability as compared to the two units.

I simply need more hard drive space (This was before eSATA), and more tuners (won't change till HMC), to cover all our standard recordings.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> ... btmoore, I really respect your opinions and always enjoy your posts even when we disagree. What's your take on the article at TV Predictions?


Thanks for the kind words,

I think this is the nugget of truth in the article:

"We know a good system when we see it -- and all too often in this corporate day and age -- good quality doesn't matter when a company can grab an extra few bucks a month for themselves."

The last line was a bit fanboyish

"Give us our TiVo! It works and is better than anything else."

IMO, it would of been more appropriate to say give us a working product, it doesn't need to be TiVo, but I would like to have my DVR work, right now the HR20, based on my experience, it needs more time in the oven. This product feels rushed, there are too many bugs, there testing and Q&A processes do not appear to robust. It is hard to excuse this level of incompetence in a product release. I can understand where the author is coming from, I assume like myself has had a very positive experience with prior DTiVo products, and is expressing his frustration on his desire to have a product that works. There will always be debates about feature/functionality, but I do not think that is the issues here, it is about basic DVR functionality needing to work.


----------



## gbwtfo (Sep 1, 2006)

Just a pet peeve, but why do people insist on using the word "fast" and HR20 in the same sentence? Faster than other DVRs at certain tasks, perhaps, but certainly not "fast" by any meaning of the word. Given that negotiating the guide is most likely the primary measure of rating a DVRs responsiveness, I have yet to use a "fast" DVR. Coming from a Samsung DirecTivo Series 2 with 6.2 which had tolerable speed and a vastly superior guide mode, the HR20 is IMHO intolerably slow. With any luck it's just a software issue that will improve over time. However, if it's a hardware issue, then DTV please at the very least offer a beefier box for those of us willing to pay extra for it.

Thanks for listening 
Greg


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

I will agree with others, no disrespect Earl, but the HR20 problems span pretty wide. Most so called "professional" reviews have noted that, while its a good box, its got too many issues to be taken seriously at this time. From the looks of their latest "limited release" software update, we might as well start dusting off our VCR's.

Its really a shame that problems have not surfaced for you, as then you could see how disgusting this all gets. I was gone for 4 days and my jaw dropped when the HR20 actually recorded the Green Bay/Minnesota game in HD off the Ticket as well as the Cincy/SD game in HD....I figured I would be screwed. Had the SD TIVO running backup.

However, the joy quickly went south as the annoying searching for sattelite signal appeared in the 4th quarter and then the HR20 decided it was not going to record The Amazing Race (the TIVO was more than happy to record it).

TIVO does get a bit of a free pass, but really, it is more than deserved. People still rave about the D* HD TIVO and my SD TIVO is so going strong 3 years later (never a problem or missed recording).

I would welcome TIVO back in a heartbeat. In fact, I would probably pay $10 per month for TIVO over the HR20. Yes, TIVO is slower, but at least I wont experience the littany of problems I have to fear with the HR20 every time I watch TV.

TV Predictions is not the greatest of info sometimes....but I gotta agree with Swanni on this one....


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

btmoore said:


> IMO, it would of been more appropriate to say give us a working product, it doesn't need to be TiVo, but I would like to have my DVR work, right now the HR20, based on my experience, it needs more time in the oven. This product feels rushed, there are too many bugs, there testing and Q&A processes do not appear to robust. It is hard to excuse this level of incompetence in a product release. I can understand where the author is coming from, I assume like myself has had a very positive experience with prior DTiVo products, and is expressing his frustration on his desire to have a product that works. There will always be debates about feature/functionality, but I do not think that is the issues here, it is about basic DVR functionality needing to work.


I know a lot of folks would have preferred that the HR10 still be sold for a few more months. This is the strategy that D* took with the R15/R10 transition and perhaps it was nothing more than hubris that kept them from doing the same here.

For my part, I would like to see a D* subscriber card that fits into a PC and turns it into a D* reciever. This has been strongly rumored for Vista but I haven't heard of anyone seeing it yet. Real hacker types could write MythTV drivers for it and then make the DVR exactly what they wanted.

Slightly OT, I believe that if TiVo doesn't find another strong partner like they had in D*, their only hope of survival is to port the whole thing to PC. They could make sure it runs in Windows using some sort of virtualization software or port the entire thing to Windows directly (IMO that's a dumb idea, but hey).


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gbwtfo said:


> Just a pet peeve, but why do people insist on using the word "fast" and HR20 in the same sentence? Faster than other DVRs at certain tasks, perhaps, but certainly not "fast" by any meaning of the word. Given that negotiating the guide is most likely the primary measure of rating a DVRs responsiveness, I have yet to use a "fast" DVR. Coming from a Samsung DirecTivo Series 2 with 6.2 which had tolerable speed and a vastly superior guide mode, the HR20 is IMHO intolerably slow. With any luck it's just a software issue that will improve over time. However, if it's a hardware issue, then DTV please at the very least offer a beefier box for those of us willing to pay extra for it.
> 
> Thanks for listening
> Greg


Another example how in different setups... different configurations... different usage patterns... the "speed" is different. I would have to say nearly the opposite... that everything I do on the HR20 (with the exception of how fast it responds to playback back request), is faster then the HR10 or any of my other Series 2s.

But comparing a DVR to a non-DVR... for "speed" and channel changing... yah... no DVR has yet to even match the speed in those areas, to units built 5 years ago.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> Slightly OT, I believe that if TiVo doesn't find another strong partner like they had in D*, their only hope of survival is to port the whole thing to PC. They could make sure it runs in Windows using some sort of virtualization software or port the entire thing to Windows directly (IMO that's a dumb idea, but hey).


You mean like what ReplayTV eventually did?


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> You mean like what ReplayTV eventually did?


Yes, similar to what I've read in their press releases. I don't know if they actually have a shipping product yet. I do think that TiVo's name recognition would beat ReplayTV's in the marketplace and I think OEMs like HP and Dell would be more likely to bundle a better-known product.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> I know a lot of folks would have preferred that the HR10 still be sold for a few more months. This is the strategy that D* took with the R15/R10 transition and perhaps it was nothing more than hubris that kept them from doing the same here.
> 
> For my part, I would like to see a D* subscriber card that fits into a PC and turns it into a D* reciever. This has been strongly rumored for Vista but I haven't heard of anyone seeing it yet. Real hacker types could write MythTV drivers for it and then make the DVR exactly what they wanted.
> 
> Slightly OT, I believe that if TiVo doesn't find another strong partner like they had in D*, their only hope of survival is to port the whole thing to PC. They could make sure it runs in Windows using some sort of virtualization software or port the entire thing to Windows directly (IMO that's a dumb idea, but hey).


I think it would be good to see a PC card, maybe it would allow 3rd parties to develop better products, assuming the DMR and copy protection systems dont make it unusable.

Even if the hr10 were to be sold for a few months more, I know I would not of purchased one. It is a end of life/end of production system. If you are going to stay with D* you should purchase the HD system that support their direction. That being said D* needs to deliver a working product that supports their direction. I look for at least a 5 year life cycle out of my HT purchases, anything over 5 years is just gravy. I have been assuming that D* would add more premium programming over the next year or so and the current HDlight would likely move to MPEG4 and be given the bandwidth necessary to truly shine. I am starting to wonder if my hopes are misplaced.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not saying that the problems are not real... but I am not the only that hasn't had issues.
> 
> There is no sugarcoating squat... I am just trying to point out that the "other" product, isn't having that great of time with their rollout.


With respect, Earl, while the "other" product is having its own issues, they do have a track record of getting things right and producing very reliable DVRs. D* does not, so they get cut less slack...especially since they jettisoned the "other" in favor of doing it themselves. Also, the Tivo S3 is a bigger challenge in some ways, since they have to deal with various cable companies with various levels of enthusiasm for and competence in cablecard implementation...with D* you have a single provider platform.

That said, if all HR20's were working as well as yours, this would be a less contentious and emotional issue.


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Way too many things to try to quote here, but some thoughts:

1) Yes the S3 has had some issues. But these issues are are not relevant to D* subs. (Yes they are relevant to those who may want to leave D* for an S3.) 

2) In many years with a Series 1 SA (And Bless you belboz for your BlessTivo program) the first DirecTiVo's all the way to the HR10, they have not had near the issues the R series (R15/HR20) have had. Yes there have been problems, but the HR20 has had more problems and software updates in 3 months than the HR10 has had in going on 3 years. And a the most recent updates have been for new features, not stability.

3) I have not personally had major issues with my HR20, but is under light use. but it does not work as smoothly as my HR10's.

4) I don't mind the HR20 interface other than a few quirks (double press guide button for example).

5) Much of the slowness of the HR10 could be fixed with more powerful hardware. Remember it was developed almost 3 years ago.

6) D* has a problem here. E* finally after how many years has a stable DVR, cableco's are finally getting it right and D* customers are being asked to go from a very stable platform to one that isn't so stable. The big question is how long does D* have to get it fixed?


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Even if the hr10 were to be sold for a few months more, I know I would not of purchased one. It is a end of life/end of production system.


I'm with you - I actually could have bought an HR10 from CC instead of getting an HR20 from D*. I'm in the LA area and have MPEG-2 HD locals anyway [BTW they often have the same PQ problems and audio dropouts as MPEG-4, as does my OTA feed]. Maybe that's why I'm less likely to complain... I know I had a choice and I brought it on myself. I do know that others might have made a different choice, and D* probably would have had more happy customers.

I didn't buy the HR10 for exactly the reason you quote. It is an EOL system and I would have been unhappy after 6 months when I need a purchase like that to last two years. I could have also waited six months, that's always a choice too.


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

I think TIVOs fate (barring some sort of new parterships coming) will be to get sucked up into D*/E*/Comcast or ATT or Verizon. The sats make the most sense, as they are truly national...but that looks impossible given the current state of D* tyring to go its own (so far, not too smoothly) and E* doing the same.

One has to wonder where D* would be sitting if they would have commissioned TIVO to get workign on an MPEG4 HD DVR two years ago....maybe theres would be as problematic...and then they could push the blame on them....however, my guess is D* would be in a lot better shape.

We shall see....I hope the HR20 does well, but its QB rating is 40.1 right now.


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

btmoore said:


> that is a fairly light load, I am starting to think the bugs are assoicated to the load and frequency of use.


You may be right. I have no series links, because originally some had missed recordings that were set up this way. Instead, on Sunday or Monday I set up my weekly shows through guide surfing & 1 press of the record button. I've had 0 blank recordings & maybe 4 partials (2 were power outages), all in about 7 weeks of use & 90+ recordings. About 99% has been MPEG-4, too.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bwaldron said:


> With respect, Earl, while the "other" product is having its own issues, they do have a track record of getting things right and producing very reliable DVRs. D* does not, so they get cut less slack...especially since they jettisoned the "other" in favor of doing it themselves. Also, the Tivo S3 is a bigger challenge in some ways, since they have to deal with various cable companies with various levels of enthusiasm for and competence in cablecard implementation...with D* you have a single provider platform.
> 
> That said, if all HR20's were working as well as yours, this would be a less contentious and emotional issue.


You are right... they do have a 6 year track record of getting things right... eventually... so yes, there is reason to be optomistic that they will fix the issues with their newest system.

DirecTV is relatively "new" to this game... so they haven't earned that right.

So DirecTV should be penalized, because they opted first to go with a thrid party vendor for their DVR solution, then decided to go at it by themselves... While all the other carriers out there, since they opted to start right off the bat with their own?

Would TiVo even be where it is today, without the DirecTV relationship?
Would DirecTV be where it is today, without the TiVo relationship?

The T3's battle shouldn't be with the Cable-Co's. They adheared to the Cable-Card standard. Do you think the Cable-Co's WANT you to be able to get any third part box? They never have, and they have done everything they could to stop it. So yes, they are being very difficult with the cable-cards... and I don't expect that to ever change. As it is absolutely against their business models.

In some ways, it is similar to HR20's fight with HDMI... not all these TV's comply to the standards for the HDMI.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And shouldn't they have gotten it right out of the box? I mean they are TiVo after all, and they have been doings this now for 7 years.


You would think, but look what they did to the HR10!


> We have blog after blog, article after article lately stating how many issues there are with the HR20....


Somebody has to do it. DirecTV is taking the Micro$oft approach and denying that there is anything at all wrong with the HR20.


> Where are the similar articles about the TiVo Series 3, the Series 2, and so on?


You have to admit that most of the TiVo bugs aren't as injurious as the HR20 (and R15) issues. While they are hinky, they aren't missing major features and for the most part, they do what they need to do. I think the key issue is that the mouthpieces at DirecTV are lying through their teeth and the bloggers are trying to balance out the false claims.

After all, if TiVo goes away tomorrow, the content will still be there. For DirecTV, the DVR+ is the only forward looking option and without it, you're screwed.


> -) 2nd "Why should TiVo get a pass"... Do think it is just DirecTV and the Cable-Co's being stubborn and wanting to push TiVo out... or could there be something on TiVo's side of the negotiating table that these companies don't like?


I'm sure they are all smarting from the TV Guide logo issues.


> -) I don't know if was the same author, but it was TV Predictions... that was clammering for the box to be released.... that things where slipping... Now they are saying it was RUSHED, and shouldn't have been released..... It seems that they want it both ways.


They were right on both counts. It took way too long to deliver _and_ DirecTV made a poor choice in releasing it before it was cooked.


> You can argue that the T3 was rushed to market as well....


Sure, but you must also admit that the T3 isn't as critical to cable subscriber's being able to watch content as the HR20 is to DirecTV subscribers.


> I just don't get why everyone wants to bury the unit 3 months in.


I don't think anyone want to bury the HR20. They may want to see harm come to those who released it in such a crippled condition though.

Certainly there are those that want to keep their TiVos and that's fine for them. The HR20's apparently too lofty goals show the makings of an excellent receiver. It comes down to a company that was pressured by the wrong ideas opening up a bridge to the future that wasn't safe for travel yet.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So DirecTV should be penalized, because they opted first to go with a thrid party vendor for their DVR solution, then decided to go at it by themselves... While all the other carriers out there, since they opted to start right off the bat with their own?
> 
> Would TiVo even be where it is today, without the DirecTV relationship?
> Would DirecTV be where it is today, without the TiVo relationship?


It's not about "penalizing" DirecTV, but yeah, as a customer I can't say I am happy with their decision to go it alone...until the point that the HR20 is working reliably and well. I hope that comes soon, but I don't share the optimism of many that it will.

I'm not trying to bash D* -- compared to what I have seen of cable/FIOS DVRs, the HR20 even in its present state is a better machine.

The partnership between D* and Tivo was beneficial to both parties. Like all divorces, it's painful and a bit sad. I believe it will harm both parties (Tivo frankly more than D*).


----------



## KSbugeater (Feb 17, 2005)

If you can afford it, the best interim solution is to have both and HR10 and HR20. I do, and it's great (except when the HR20 deletes a ST game like mine did yesterday)

I think it's odd that the only way to get the COMPLETE NFL Sunday Ticket experience is to have both a DirecTiVo AND an interactive receiver. Obviously, the stat tracker and live scores are awesome on the HR20 and other interactive receivers, but they can't store the 3 minute game highlights like the TiVos can (or maybe the R15 can??)


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> ... So DirecTV should be penalized, because they opted first to go with a thrid party vendor for their DVR solution, then decided to go at it by themselves... While all the other carriers out there, since they opted to start right off the bat with their own?


DirecTV should be penalized for releasing a DVR product that does not accomplish the basic task of being a reliable DVR. It has nothing to do with how they chose to go down that path.



Earl Bonovich said:


> ...
> Would TiVo even be where it is today, without the DirecTV relationship?
> Would DirecTV be where it is today, without the TiVo relationship?


It is clear that both have benefited.



Earl Bonovich said:


> ...
> The T3's battle shouldn't be with the Cable-Co's. They adheared to the Cable-Card standard. Do you think the Cable-Co's WANT you to be able to get any third part box? They never have, and they have done everything they could to stop it. So yes, they are being very difficult with the cable-cards... and I don't expect that to ever change. As it is absolutely against their business models.


There is no doubt that is a total mess.



Earl Bonovich said:


> ...
> In some ways, it is similar to HR20's fight with HDMI... not all these TV's comply to the standards for the HDMI.


While there are some similarities, the HDMI problem is whole different issue, I continue to hope the problems continue with HDMI so maybe some day they will kill the HDCP component to simplify the spec.


----------



## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> DirecTV is relatively "new" to this game... so they haven't earned that right.


Worse than that, they've shown that they still can't get it (R15) right a year after release.


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Would TiVo even be where it is today, without the DirecTV relationship?
> Would DirecTV be where it is today, without the TiVo relationship?


Ding ding ding....you got that right on the head. No doubt TIVO would be a shell of what it is had it not had D* as a "friend".

And while D* would be around with or without, TIVO certainly helped D* in terms of "coolness" and "being a leader" with the SD and HD TIVO's.

It just amazes me that for $1 per month in revenue per sub (which is a lot), TIVO gets the deep six...:nono2:


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cookpr said:


> Ding ding ding....you got that right on the head. No doubt TIVO would be a shell of what it is had it not had D* as a "friend".
> 
> And while D* would be around with or without, TIVO certainly helped D* in terms of "coolness" and "being a leader" with the SD and HD TIVO's.
> 
> It just amazes me that for $1 per month in revenue per sub (which is a lot), TIVO gets the deep six...:nono2:


But what is to say, when it came time to start talking about a renewal... or a NEW MPEG-4 receiver... TiVo didn't ask for more?

They haven't been deep-sixed for their current agreement... in fact that $1 agreement was continued for a while.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

cookpr said:


> It just amazes me that for $1 per month in revenue per sub (which is a lot), TIVO gets the deep six...:nono2:


Yeah, I agree. I understand DirecTV's desire for control, but do believe they were and would be better off using Tivo as a partner for the software end of things. Heck, they should buy Tivo if they want total control...the price will probably become more attractive as time goes on


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But what is to say, when it came time to start talking about a renewal... or a NEW MPEG-4 receiver... TiVo didn't ask for more?


That is a valid point, and obviously none of use here (I don't think!) were privy to the negotiations. I haven't heard any reports about Tivo trying to shake down D*, but it's always possible the two parties were playing a game of chicken.

At the same time, I believe that Tivo was a real competitive advantage for D* in the marketplace...and we can't dismiss the costs to DirecTV of software development for their own boxes.


----------



## mndwalsh (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have 21 on the one, and 27 on the other.
> 
> At the core, I kinda have them broken up by networks.
> CBS and ABC are on one system
> ...


Earl, when do you have time to watch TV???

Seems that you are always here with us. You must have a job, which should take up some of your time.


----------



## jclark (Oct 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So DirecTV should be penalized, because they opted first to go with a thrid party vendor for their DVR solution, then decided to go at it by themselves... While all the other carriers out there, since they opted to start right off the bat with their own?


I don't think that DirecTV should be penalized for trying to do it on their own, but people are going to complain when they don't offer a comparable product. People here are saying that a DVR is a DVR, but if you have one that has a feature set that fits your viewing habits and then you are kind of forced to switch to a new until that doesn't have those features, you get a little unhappy.

Until I get used to the box, or they offer a feature set that I find more convenient than my HR10, I will use my HR10 as my primary DVR.

With all that said, my HR20 has been pretty stable for me and I have not had many issues with it. It has a lot of cool features, but none that I really use.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mndwalsh said:


> Earl, when do you have time to watch TV???
> 
> Seems that you are always here with us. You must have a job, which should take up some of your time.


Somewhat fun part about being a software developer... while you code on one monitor, you have the other.... and it is easy to jump back between the screens. (Plus it looks like I am constantly busy, as I am at my desk all day)..

As for watching the TV.... I usually knock off a good 2-4 hours after 8pm when my Son goes to bed, and my wife get's home from work.


----------



## mndwalsh (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Somewhat fun part about being a software developer... while you code on one monitor, you have the other.... and it is easy to jump back between the screens. (Plus it looks like I am constantly busy, as I am at my desk all day)..
> 
> As for watching the TV.... I usually knock off a good 2-4 hours after 8pm when my Son goes to bed, and my wife get's home from work.


now I need another monitor, but I usually look busy

thanks for you help here it is appreciated


----------



## judson_west (Jun 15, 2006)

What drew me to DirecTV originally was the choice I had in determining my A/V environment. There were numerous vendors hawking SAT receivers, dishes, multiswitches, etc. Dish was a one stop shop. Their own dish, switch, receivers, etc. Now DirecTV is becoming more like Dish. We have fewer choices and I think that's bad. 

Do you think DirecTV would be working this hard on getting it right if TiVo weren't still in the wings. Every time they do something with the R15/HR20 they are smashed in the face with "Well TiVo does this better." Dish has been rolling their own for years and STILL haven't gotten it right. What would you say if your cell phone provider said here's your phone and you better like it. And by the way, on 80% of your calls will be clear, and the phone will probably loose some of your contacts. Us old folks remember the old AT&T days when you got the phone from them and had few few choices at that. Look at PC's. I believe that Apple has the market share that it does because it has a lock on the hardware. 

People want choice.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

judson_west said:


> What would you say if your cell phone provider said here's your phone and you better like it. And by the way, on 80% of your calls will be clear, and the phone will probably loose some of your contacts.
> ....
> People want choice.


Funny... that is pretty much my relationship with my Cell Phone carrier.
They have locked hardware, unless you are willing to drop $400+ on "unlocked" phones.

These phones are built by different vendors, but the fast majority of the functionality is shutdown by the carriers. The cell-phone companies are brutal (at least in my experiences) with their contracts.

Sure people want choice, but they also what everything in the sky.
And as they competitors go after each one another... what do they toute... We can do x,y,z; They can't

And basically EVERY carrier right now, is locked on their own hardware.
IF you want *all* the features that their services offers. (T3 is only Cable-Card 1.0 compatible, which means no two way communication, which means no On-Demand, or other such offerings)

As the technology becomes more complex, and less against any types of standards....


----------



## mndwalsh (Nov 16, 2005)

judson_west said:


> People want choice.


I used to think this way also. I have been in the IT/PC business for over 10 years and the more that it has simplified the better it has been. I could go on longer than anyone would want to read but to support products you must narrow your base down, I think DTV is doing it right. They will work out the bugs and then when you call in with an issue they should know the product. Company's are merging every day and it will make things simpler and hopefully better. I remember when you got ripped off by 1 phone company and now people think it is better getting ripped off by 4.

I prefer a resteraunt with a small menu, to me that says that they do a small menu to keep it simple and be able to get the dishes right.

One thing that I cannot believe that people don't bash more is why did TIVO loose DTV's support, I am guessing they wanted more $$ and that goes the same with the Cable Company's, yet everyone bashes D for dumping TIVO, there are 2 sides to every story.

Sorry for being long winded but I am having a bad day.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

All I wanted from the start was a reliable HD DVR (never owned an HR10, but friends and neighbors do, and they love them), not a "download process," now in its seventh iteration, that shows how hard D* is trying. I do/have owned a few SD DTivos (R10s, standalones, Hughes Dtivos)), and no hassles, none, for 6-7 years.

After fits and starts, my HR20 is now working, albeit with component cable installed and BBCs removed. But I have little faith/confidence it that continuing, based on my experiences so far and other issues posted on these threads.

I'm sure the annoying video/audio dropouts (had several yesterday during the Eagles-Skins game on the Fox MPEG2 feed from NYC) aren't entirely the HR20's fault, more an HD transmission issue perhaps. But even so, there is nothing more annoying that trying to watch a show and having to deal with all the blinks, quirks, flaws and other hiccups that all of a sudden are part of the D* sub experience when it comes to HD recording/viewing via the HR20.

Most of those issues have come into our house since the arrival of the HR20. I turn the H20 on a lot in the bedroom, and so far, no problems with MPEG4 or MPEG2. That tells me even when the HR20 is "working," it's not.

D* took a risk. In the next year or so, that risk may backfire big-time. We'll see. In all the years as a cable and/or D* subscriber, I haven't see this much static over a hardware change. Then again, I didn't get an R15. So the HR20 is my baptism by fire.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

mndwalsh said:


> I used to think this way also. I have been in the IT/PC business for over 10 years and the more that it has simplified the better it has been. I could go on longer than anyone would want to read but to support products you must narrow your base down, I think DTV is doing it right. They will work out the bugs and then when you call in with an issue they should know the product. Company's are merging every day and it will make things simpler and hopefully better. I remember when you got ripped off by 1 phone company and now people think it is better getting ripped off by 4.
> 
> I prefer a resteraunt with a small menu, to me that says that they do a small menu to keep it simple and be able to get the dishes right.
> 
> ...


Always look on the bright side of life...see Spamalot if it comes to your town.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

btmoore said:


> The last line was a bit fanboyish
> 
> "Give us our TiVo! It works and is better than anything else."
> 
> IMO, it would of been more appropriate to say give us a working product, it doesn't need to be TiVo, but I would like to have my DVR work, right now the HR20, based on my experience, it needs more time in the oven.


I (respectfully) disagree. I think it DOES need to be TIVO. Tivo users are loyal to the product. If I can't have the features my TIVO has because of copyrights, then I guess I want a TIVO. (IF D* had the ability to add wishlists, auto-correct, etc, this would not be such a major issue.)


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Funny... that is pretty much my relationship with my Cell Phone carrier.
> They have locked hardware, unless you are willing to drop $400+ on "unlocked" phones.
> 
> These phones are built by different vendors, but the fast majority of the functionality is shutdown by the carriers. The cell-phone companies are brutal (at least in my experiences) with their contracts.
> ...


Obviously not everyone is enamored with their cell phone company either so it's a flawed comparison. My point is, if you want a teensy phone, they've got one. If you want a music phone, they've got that. If you only buy Samsung, they've got that (or substitute your favorite brand here). More to the point, if you want a music phone (for example on Verizon) they have both the Chocolate and Razr.

At the moment your choice with D* is D11, H10, R15, and HR20. These are all products with specific uses and none is in any way a substitute for another. If there were some choice, like when you could still choose R10 or R15, it would be a little better. You could, like some, stay with old tried-and-true, or you could choose the path to the future, complete with bumps.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> -) 2nd "Why should TiVo get a pass"... Do think it is just DirecTV and the Cable-Co's being stubborn and wanting to push TiVo out... or could there be something on TiVo's side of the negotiating table that these companies don't like? Why would these companies opt to spend the multi-millions of dollars to design, build, write, support, promote, ect... their own units... and then have to "defend" them against the household name... TiVo ?


I understand the tone of the article was heavy on the problems people are having with this box. But he does mention the clunky interface, and I assume that at least for this article, he is basing his assessment on prior versions of TIVO - which were for the most part problem free. (at least compared to the HR20).

Thank you Earl for posting this article. This is a debate that I am very interested in which is why I put the thread about market forces convincing D* to reconsider TIVO out there.


----------



## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> Obviously not everyone is enamored with their cell phone company either so it's a flawed comparison. My point is, if you want a teensy phone, they've got one. If you want a music phone, they've got that. If you only buy Samsung, they've got that (or substitute your favorite brand here). More to the point, if you want a music phone (for example on Verizon) they have both the Chocolate and Razr.
> 
> At the moment your choice with D* is D11, H10, R15, and HR20. These are all products with specific uses and none is in any way a substitute for another. If there were some choice, like when you could still choose R10 or R15, it would be a little better. You could, like some, stay with old tried-and-true, or you could choose the path to the future, complete with bumps.


How is the different for Cable Co. or Dish? You don't get to choose your DVR with other vendors anyway? Why is DirecTV more guilty than others?


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Dusty said:


> How is the different for Cable Co. or Dish? You don't get to choose your DVR with other vendors anyway? Why is DirecTV more guilty than others?


Not more guilty, just the same guilty. It's the same for all of them and my point is that one of them could gain a real competitive edge by changing that.


----------



## ShapeGSX (Sep 17, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> Not more guilty, just the same guilty. It's the same for all of them and my point is that one of them could gain a real competitive edge by changing that.


Actually, with the cable companies, now you do have a choice. You can use a cablecard instead.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

ShapeGSX said:


> Actually, with the cable companies, now you do have a choice. You can use a cablecard instead.


The argument advanced earlier is that cable companies aren't forthcoming enough with cablecard support.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Dusty said:


> How is the different for Cable Co. or Dish? You don't get to choose your DVR with other vendors anyway?  Why is DirecTV more guilty than others?


Because folks that have been long-time subscribers used to have choice with DirecTV; they remember when there were many manufacturers of IRDs with different features. Even in the DVR arena, one could choose to use standalone Tivos or ReplayTV (or, for cost/convenience, UltimateTV or DirecTivo integrated solutions). Many folks moved to D* long ago specifically to get away from cable companies -- to have DirecTV become in their minds simply another cable company (via the sky) doesn't really please them. Not saying that DirecTV's business plan won't work, but I understand those that fondly remember the old days.

Dish...well...I've never been a fan of theirs and their DVR's were plain awful until recently.

With cable or FIOS, you still have the option of using standalone Tivos if you're willing to pay the price.

With D* it's their box or nothing. They've put a lot of pressure on themselves to get it right. Hopefully they will.


----------



## wmschultz (Jul 18, 2006)

That was one of the poorest written "articles" I have read. How many ( ) do you need? Holy Crap.

I'm not disputing what was "written", just in the writers poor use of grammar.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> The argument advanced earlier is that cable companies aren't forthcoming enough with cablecard support.


And the current cable-card standard supported by the products out there, doesn't enabled all the features of your cable-co


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Some random thoughts on this topic---

-I really like this "article" - but I don't assume it will change anything. 

-I can see there are clearly two camps of people in this debate - those that are upset about the problems this receiver has, and those that are upset with the features. (I am one of the ones upset with the features, I believe the problems will be ironed out. - though they still bug me.) (Okay a third - those that are happy with the status quo and will accept anything D* gives them and who want everyone to stop complaining about the loss of TIVO.) 

-The problem I have - is that D* is completely silent on all this debate. Why don't they hire an *official* spokesperson to hang out on this forum and respond to some of these issues? There are enough people in this forum to give a true representation of the entire customer base. Just because other customers don't have the time, or inclination to come out here and complain, doesn't mean they aren't upset. 

-I would HAPPILY pay a dollar extra to have a TIVO with my MPEG4 HD D*service. Why can't/won't D* accommodate me? 

-Why do I miss TIVO so much? Here is a perfect example: Yesterday I was torturing myself again trying to watch a Lions game. I decided I would try D*'s solution to the dual tuner issue. (Record the game, and go back and forth between it, and Live TV tuned to another channel.) This was pure Hell. Not only was it cumbersome, requiring many button presses, god forbid, I hit the wrong one. With my TIVO, it was simple. One button to switch tuners. Now for the icing. As the game was ending I wasn't really paying attenting to the time - oops my mistake. The game stopped recording with 5 or 6 minutes left so i missed the end. When I switched back to LiveTV it was on a different channel so the game wasn't being buffered. THIS IS NOT A SOLUTION TO DUAL LIVE BUFFER. 

There is so much to say on this topic. I need a break.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bwaldron said:


> Because folks that have been long-time subscribers used to have choice with DirecTV; they remember when there were many manufacturers of IRDs with different features. Even in the DVR arena, one could choose to use standalone Tivos or ReplayTV (or, for cost/convenience, UltimateTV or DirecTivo integrated solutions). Many folks moved to D* long ago specifically to get away from cable companies -- to have DirecTV become in their minds simply another cable company (via the sky) doesn't really please them. Not saying that DirecTV's business plan won't work, but I understand those that fondly remember the old days.
> 
> Dish...well...I've never been a fan of theirs and their DVR's were plain awful until recently.
> 
> ...


Not really... You can still get other receivers... Just not new ones.
No difference then any of the other carriers out there.

You can still use a standalone TiVo with DirecTV if you want to.
In fact that is how a lot of started using our TiVos with DirecTV.

The fact that you can't do that with a TiVo Series 3, is because the technology cost to re-compress an decompressed HD signal, is astronomical for a CE device.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> The argument advanced earlier is that cable companies aren't forthcoming enough with cablecard support.


It may be a choice thrust upon them by government mandate (not something I'm fond of with my libertarian tendencies), but it is a choice for the consumer nevertheless.

I am not a cable company fan, but I have at least considered returning after leaving them for C-band over 17 years ago. Until recently I would never have considered leaving D*. The next year is going to be an interesting one, and I'm still rooting for D* to succeed.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

ShapeGSX said:


> Actually, with the cable companies, now you do have a choice. You can use a cablecard instead.


The theory behind the cablecard is a good one (a standard for accessing cable across vendors and providers). Only time will tell how it works out. It is a shame that there is not one standard that includes cable and sat.


----------



## ShapeGSX (Sep 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And the current cable-card standard supported by the products out there, doesn't enabled all the features of your cable-co


As DirecTV customers, I just assume that we aren't interested in Video On Demand. 

I had a cablecard plugged into my TV for HD up until when I got the HR20. It worked. But I couldn't record the HD channels, obviously. I couldn't care less about VOD. I suspect that the cable companies are more broken up about people not getting VOD than the people are about not having it.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not really... You can still get other receivers... Just not new ones.
> No difference then any of the other carriers out there.
> 
> You can still use a standalone TiVo with DirecTV if you want to.
> ...


Previously your choice of equipment did not determine what programming you'd be able to receive. In the future, if you want to be able to receive all programming that D* offers, you will need one of their boxes.

I started with a standalone ReplayTV myself...moved to the DirecTV for the advantages of integration. Yes, I can still use the ReplayTV now with an old receiver if I want to be limited to SD.

I understand the reasons why the Tivo S3 won't work with satellite feeds. I also understand that using it w/ cable will limit one from receiving PPV and on-demand programming. May be a big loss for some, not for others.


----------



## ShapeGSX (Sep 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The fact that you can't do that with a TiVo Series 3, is because the technology cost to re-compress an decompressed HD signal, is astronomical for a CE device.


Not really true anymore, apparently. Slingbox has a cheap option to do just that with the Slingbox Pro.

http://us.slingmedia.com/page/hdconnect.html


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

ShapeGSX said:


> Not really true anymore, apparently. Slingbox has a cheap option to do just that with the Slingbox Pro.
> 
> http://us.slingmedia.com/page/hdconnect.html


The Slingbox Pro (w/ HD Connect) will downconvert a component input for output. It does not send HD video (nor of course does it record it).


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

ShapeGSX said:


> Not really true anymore, apparently. Slingbox has a cheap option to do just that with the Slingbox Pro.
> 
> http://us.slingmedia.com/page/hdconnect.html


I have been looking for the specs on this, I have a very hard time believing that this is creating a 1080i or 720P compressed stream. It may be using HD as an input but I would think that they would need to descale it, the real time CPU requirements for this type of task is not trival. It would be impressive it this thing can actually do real time compression of HD component with our down a major down rez. Do you have any technical specs the web site is very lite on details.


----------



## ShapeGSX (Sep 17, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> The Slingbox Pro (w/ HD Connect) will downconvert a component input for output. It does not send HD video (nor of course does it record it).


Aaah, I didn't realize that they were pulling a DirecTV and downscaling the HD first. :hurah:


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

btmoore said:


> I have been looking for the specs on this, I have a very hard time believing that this is creating a 1080i or 720P compressed stream. It may be using HD as an input but I would think that they would need to descale it, the real time CPU requirements for this type of task is not trival. It would be impressive it this thing can actually do real time compression of HD component with our down a major down rez. Do you have any technical specs the web site is very lite on details.


It downconverts. (I have a Slingbox Pro but not the yet-to-be-available HD Connect.)

Quoted From: http://www.slingcommunity.com/article/15265/:

One of the exciting new features on the Slingbox Pro is a high-definition capable input, though it requires a separate accessory to take advantage of it. For $49.99, you can grab a component video dongle that allows you to throw 480p, 720p, and 1080i signals into your Slingbox. Keep in mind, the Slingbox doesn't stream them at HD resolutions, but instead internally scales them to 640 x 480 over LAN in HQ mode, and 320 x 240 when connecting remotely.


----------



## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I just don't get why everyone wants to bury the unit 3 months in.
> The information is out there about the unit.... That is what it is there for, so you can make your own informed choice about if you want to go ahead with the HR20, or wait for something else. No one is forcing you into an HR20...


Know what Earl? I agree with you. No one is forcing us to use the box. However when I ordered the box, they never told me I would be a beta tester. And don't you dare say we are not! When I called D* customer support, they are clueless about the software updates, and act like this site does not exist and everyone here are cyber-space whackos.

So my problem is that D* is not up front with the customer telling them the truth about this.

Also it isn't exactly like I can go back to my ultimate TV RCA unit can I? I believe the 2 dishes are different. So once you go to the HR20 you are sort of stuck. 
I am making do now with the HR20, though I do have to reset about 2-3 times a week once video settings and trick play is lost. But when it works I am satisfied. I do not think I got the latest software update yet (as of last night I did not). I am sort of glad about that.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bwaldron said:


> Previously your choice of equipment did not determine what programming you'd be able to receive. In the future, if you want to be able to receive all programming that D* offers, you will need one of their boxes.
> 
> ....
> 
> I understand the reasons why the Tivo S3 won't work with satellite feeds. I also understand that using it w/ cable will limit one from receiving PPV and on-demand programming. May be a big loss for some, not for others.


Actually, previously... yes... you had to "upgrade" hardware to newer boxes, if you wanted to get signals from the newer sats (such as 110, 119, 72, 95)... And over time, DirecTV/Humax relationship usually had those boxes out first, with third party vendors comming later on.

Now, yes... you are correct... you would need one of their boxes to tap into their newest features/content. Just like with our neighboorhood Cable-Co.
Last year, they moved about a dozen or so very popular channesl (Sci-Fi, Comedy Central, ect). from the analog ban to the digital band.

Which required my inlaws to rent 4 Digital Boxes.. upgrade to the digital package, just so they can get the same programming... they now had to then work with the box to be able to scheduled recordings on their VCR, and do the SA TiVo piggie back method for their existing SA-TiVo.

So DirecTV isn't alone in that..... it has now been about 18 months, before they had a "choice" to spend $650-$800 on an T3 (for one TV), pay another monthly fee, ect...

And yes, right now there are features on that Cable-Card which just not availabe... and those are some of the features that Cable-Co's promote the most....


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Correct. We are not forced to use the HR20. However, if we want to record DirecTV MPEG4 HD, that is our only option.

It behooves D* to get MPEG4 encoding/decoding working flawlessly and get the HR20 working to a high standard of reliability. 

If they do not, well...we are not forced to be DirecTV customers, either (well, I giess we are for two years ). I am certain they understand the importance and are working hard to produce a reliable and full-featured HD DVR. Hope they get there soon. ((People can and will quibble about the GUI features, but to me reliability is absolutely paramount).


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gcisko said:


> Know what Earl? I agree with you. No one is forcing us to use the box. However when I ordered the box, they never told me I would be a beta tester. And don't you dare say we are not! When I called D* customer support, they are clueless about the software updates, and act like this site does not exist and everyone here are cyber-space whackos.
> 
> So my problem is that D* is not up front with the customer telling them the truth about this.
> 
> ...


I am not going to argue about DirecTV's customer service... that is completely different issues....

And the "we are Beta testers"... you all have your own opinions on that, and it really does no one any good to debate it.

You can go back to your Ultimate TV unit... the dish is backwards compatible. I run all my remaining tivos of the AT9 dish, with no problems.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually, previously... yes... you had to "upgrade" hardware to newer boxes, if you wanted to get signals from the newer sats (such as 110, 119, 72, 95)... And over time, DirecTV/Humax relationship usually had those boxes out first, with third party vendors comming later on.
> 
> Now, yes... you are correct... you would need one of their boxes to tap into their newest features/content. Just like with our neighboorhood Cable-Co.
> Last year, they moved about a dozen or so very popular channesl (Sci-Fi, Comedy Central, ect). from the analog ban to the digital band.
> ...


Yeah, true.

To be honest, from my personal perspective it is not really about equipment choice. It's about content, picture quality, DVR reliability and DVR GUI/features. In that order. Get all those right and I won't look for other options/choices.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not going to argue about DirecTV's customer service... that is completely different issues....


DirecTV provides customer service?

:lol:


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

btmoore said:


> DirecTV provides customer service?
> 
> :lol:


Seriously, while they do have CS issues (and things aren't as good as they've been in the past), I can honestly say that in my experience/opinion they rank above all other alternative providers in service. Damning with faint praise, perhaps.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Seriously, while they do have CS issues (and things aren't as good as they've been in the past), I can honestly say that in my experience/opinion they rank above all other alternative providers in service. Damning with faint praise, perhaps.


I am likely bitter with age and years of experience of dealing with D* CSRs. I don't have the fingers and toes to count the number of times I have had to turn off STBs and pull out and insert access cards, when it had nothing to do with anything. They have a long and current track record of not knowing what is going on or how to support the technology that is being purchased by their customers. Sure CS is just down right crappy in the US, just because the quality bar continues to drop on support doesn't mean I should be happy with what D* provides.


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

I disagree with the "we arent being forced" line....thats a bunch of phooey.

D* is the only place for dislocated NFL fans to see their teams. I want an HD DVR to feed my HD TV....so my only choice is the HR20. The TIVO version is still available but wont pick up my locals in HD. I have no choice but D* and the HR20.

If thats not forced, what is? If there was a way to run a series 3 through D*, I would have done it 10 minutes ago. 

The one part about all of this that irks me is I always wonder why D* did not go the route of offering multiple DVR options and letting the consumer choose. This is what Comcast has been rumored to be doing but we have yet to see it. Maybe they charge $5 per month for the HR20 and $8 for the HD TIVO...I dont know...working in consumer research/strategy development, makes sense to me.

My guess is D* knows if they offered that option, they would probably have 80% split going w/ TIVO and 20% with the HR20, if that. And maybe TIVO wanted too much in negotiations, but I doubt it, they didnt/dont have much leverage, D* held/holds the power and simply got greedy.

Personally, while I like the HR20 (when it works), I secretly hope it blows up in the face of D*...simply a case of greed and control...


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

WOW, this thread is moving fast.



Earl Bonovich said:


> So DirecTV should be penalized, because they opted first to go with a thrid party vendor for their DVR solution, then decided to go at it by themselves... While all the other carriers out there, since they opted to start right off the bat with their own?


Conversely, should a long-term faithful customer be penalized by having an HD DVR that performs worse than the previous model. It is much harder to take away something from a customer vs. give something extra to a customer they never had. In this case, subs had a rock solid HD DVR and now they don't vs. the E* model where it wasn't good in the beginning but has steadily gotten better. See how happy E* subs would be if they had to go back to a Dishplayer.



> Would TiVo even be where it is today, without the DirecTV relationship?
> Would DirecTV be where it is today, without the TiVo relationship?


TiVo would probably be out of business or sold for its IP. And D* would probably be behind E* in # of subs, or at least much closer. D* got tons of subs from E* because D* had a stable DVR and E* didn't. Roles are now reversed.

Regardless of what is fair and who gets penalized, the market is the great equalizer. If the HR20 does not get better, D* will suffer. End of story. There are too many other viable options out there now all competing for subs.

On a side note, I saw a what I assume was a Cablevision commecial last night touting the quality of its HD. Its about time.


----------



## wmschultz (Jul 18, 2006)

What? You are in the Western Burbs and can't get the locals OTA? I don't know
if you can use this argument.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

btmoore said:


> I am likely bitter with age and years of experience of dealing with D* CSRs. I don't have the fingers and toes to count the number of times I have had to turn off STBs and pull out and insert access cards, when it had nothing to do with anything. They have a long and current track record of not knowing what is going on or how to support the technology that is being purchased by their customers. Sure CS is just down right crappy in the US, just because the quality bar continues to drop on support doesn't mean I should be happy with what D* provides.


One thing I can say - is that my experience has actually improved with customer service. I had a horrid experience in the past, where I was transferred around for an hour (I'm not exaggerating - it was an hour), then found someone to help me, who promptly hung up on me when they couldn't fix my problem. The following call lasted 20 - 30 minutes and did not fix my problem either. (Everytime my SD Tivo reboots (frequently) all the Spanish channels show up as "channels I receive". This is a major problem for a soccer fan who had soccer wishlists)

Since I stopped caring about that problem and canceled my sports subscriptions, I have had exceptional service from them. Guess I'm lucky.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

btmoore said:


> I am likely bitter with age and years of experience of dealing with D* CSRs. I don't have the fingers and toes to count the number of times I have had to turn off STBs and pull out and insert access cards, when it had nothing to do with anything. They have a long and current track record of not knowing what is going on or how to support the technology that is being purchased by their customers. Sure CS is just down right crappy in the US, just because the quality bar continues to drop on support doesn't mean I should be happy with what D* provides.


Undrerstood completely.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

cookpr said:


> My guess is D* knows if they offered that option, they would probably have 80% split going w/ TIVO and 20% with the HR20, if that. And maybe TIVO wanted too much in negotiations, but I doubt it, they didnt/dont have much leverage, D* held/holds the power and simply got greedy.


While I'd be one that would choose Tivo as an extra-cost option, I would guess that the split would actually dramatically favor the HR20 as the default and lower-cost option. But it's just a guess.

I also find it unlikely that Tivo attempted to play hardball in negotiations, but freely admit that I do not know. I think that NewsCorp figured they did it themselves with Sky, why not on this side of the pond?


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> Regardless of what is fair and who gets penalized, the market is the great equalizer. If the HR20 does not get better, D* will suffer. End of story. There are too many other viable options out there now all competing for subs.


Agreed with all, Herdfan, but especially the above.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cookpr said:


> I disagree with the "we arent being forced" line....thats a bunch of phooey.
> 
> D* is the only place for dislocated NFL fans to see their teams. I want an HD DVR to feed my HD TV....so my only choice is the HR20. The TIVO version is still available but wont pick up my locals in HD. I have no choice but D* and the HR20.
> 
> ...


Comcast has been rumoring to do it for 2 years... guess it is taking a while to debug the product... or making sure it is good enough... but in that time, people have moved on to different carriers to different products.

The Sunday Ticket argument... well, yep.. DirecTV paid for that exclusive right. Just like Dish Network paid for the VOOM HD content... Cable-Co's have their exclusive niches as well (Tripple Cast), and FIOS has their own as well.....

As you add more requirements... Your choices get limited... each requirement limits just that much more...

As much as we yell, scream, kick, moan, threated to leave, ect.... bottom line... it isn't going to change... or change any time soon.

DirecTV is not goign to all of sudden change course... and even if you did... it is not like anything new would be out "tommorrow" you are talking months if not longer....


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> Regardless of what is fair and who gets penalized, the market is the great equalizer. If the HR20 does not get better, D* will suffer. End of story. There are too many other viable options out there now all competing for subs.


Exactly.... and that is why there is no reason to think DirecTV won't do everything possible to get their units working the way they need to be.

They have everything to gain, and everything to lose.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Exactly.... and that is why there is no reason to think DirecTV won't do everything possible to get their units working the way they need to be.
> 
> They have everything to gain, and everything to lose.


Indeed.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Agreed with all, Herdfan, but especially the above.


...which is my point exactly. Given that the competition is getting tougher all the time, having additional hardware and software choices, especially PC integration, would set D* apart and give it an advantage.

I also agree with those who would say that having excellent customer service and additional programming would do the same, but that isn't the focus of this thread.


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

wmschultz said:


> What? You are in the Western Burbs and can't get the locals OTA? I don't know
> if you can use this argument.


I, like most consumers, do not desire to deal with additional antennas and do not consider OTA an option.


----------



## wmschultz (Jul 18, 2006)

But then to say the TIVO version won't pick up your locals is a little misleading.

You have choices, we all do. You chose not to put up an antenna. But don't say
DirecTV is forcing you to do something.


----------



## Mindhaz (Sep 25, 2006)

So far, my HR-20 works fine. It has hung 1 time in a month. All of my recordings have played fine. These forums are heavily loaded with unhappy DTV users. How many people look for a place to "vent" over something that works.

I doubt the guy in the article even owns one of these flawed boxes. New tech is buggy. That's why we love it... that's why we hate it. If it were "reliable" everyone would have it. DTV isn't perfect, but its better (and usually cheaper) than cable. Something about DISH just sits wrong with me.

CSRs are usually bad. Any company, any time. 99% of the time you call Customer Serivce to complain. Who wants a job where they have to listen to people complain all the time?

One question I have... Everyone talks like 50 recordings a week is "light" use... I see people with several DVRs (in signatures and such) recording several different things at the same time. I know that a few of us do it just to see if it will work (Earl), but how many of us are actually watching 50+ hours of time-shifted programming per week? I watch a lot of TV, but not 7+ hours daily.

I love my HR-20, I like it better than my HR-10. My wife can use it too so I know the interface is good.


----------



## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

Mindhaz said:


> One question I have... Everyone talks like 50 recordings a week is "light" use... I see people with several DVRs (in signatures and such) recording several different things at the same time. I know that a few of us do it just to see if it will work (Earl), but how many of us are actually watching 50+ hours of time-shifted programming per week? I watch a lot of TV, but not 7+ hours daily.


You don't need 50 hours to watch 50 hours of programs. You can FF. I watch a football game in an hour. This is the reason why I have DVR. I used to watch one game a week. Now I watch 4 on Sunday.

The 50 recordings probably are not for the same person in the household.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> It may be a choice thrust upon them by government mandate (not something I'm fond of with my libertarian tendencies), but it is a choice for the consumer nevertheless.
> 
> I am not a cable company fan, but I have at least considered returning after leaving them for C-band over 17 years ago. Until recently I would never have considered leaving D*. The next year is going to be an interesting one, and I'm still rooting for D* to succeed.


I'm with you. Who really wants to change over to another provider? I too was happy with D* all along, now they are starting to seem suspicously like Comcast or other cable cos. Could it have something to do with Rupert Murdoch's arrival. I'd say so. I want D* to succeed because I'd like to just sit back and enjoy the show. But you're right, another year or two could change a lot of things.


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Exactly.... and that is why there is no reason to think DirecTV won't do everything possible to get their units working the way they need to be.
> 
> They have everything to gain, and *everything to lose*.


Oh I think they will do what ever they can to make it right. *But what if they can't? * What if D* just doesn't have the ability? They can try very hard, but they may just not be able to pull if off.

Just how far down the "everything to lose" road do they go?


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> Oh I think they will do what ever they can to make it right. *But what if they can't? * What if D* just doesn't have the ability? They can try very hard, but they may just not be able to pull if off.
> 
> Just how far down the "everything to lose" road do they go?


There are plenty of companies that "got it right" but failed anyway... and plenty of companies that continue to get it wrong and stay in business. I could list a ton, but it's not the point.

I would say, D* has spent more money than any of us are likely to ever see putting a huge fleet of satellites in the sky. This is a massive investment. Now, people in upper management rarely like to lose money, so all I can guess is that Earl's right, they are trying their darnedest to make HR20 work. I'm sure there are those in the halls who say, "We shoulda never lost TiVo..." but what's done is done there.

I like to put in my 2 cents and suggest stuff but in the end the one thing I'm confident of is the profit motive. Companies will do whatever they can to get or stay profitable. In the long term, bad products and insufferable customer service are bad business, which is why they will improve. As a dedicated cable co. HATER, I'm in it for the haul with D*. I'm really pulling for them.

One more nickel about customer service, which is somewhat OT. Part of my job involves dealing with end users who are sure that they've done it right. As open-minded as I try to be, I'm astounded by the absolute stupidity of most of them. Those of you who are truly intelligent and truly informed will always be smarter than Level 1 Tech Support and Customer Service. The key is to find the magic words or phone numbers that will get you to Level 2 or Retention, which is where the people like you, the intelligent, informed ones, are.

It would be great if D* invited a few of you who are most dissatisfied -- you know who you are -- to vent directly at the product managers. I think we here do a great job of letting them know what we want and what's the problem, but more direct communication (no pun intended) would help immensely.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bwaldron said:


> Seriously, while they do have CS issues (and things aren't as good as they've been in the past), I can honestly say that in my experience/opinion they rank above all other alternative providers in service.


What recent experience have you had with CS from alternative providers?


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

lamontcranston said:


> In the long term, bad products and insufferable customer service are bad business, which is why they will improve. As a dedicated cable co. HATER, I'm in it for the haul with D*. I'm really pulling for them.


And they seem to be betting the future on your commitment to stay away from cable. They combine that with their reputation for delivering the goods gained under Hughes and are managing to keep quite a few of the unquestioning subscribers on what is becoming an increasingly sour teat.


----------



## GT200 (Nov 13, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Exactly.... and that is why there is no reason to think DirecTV won't do everything possible to get their units working the way they need to be.
> 
> They have everything to gain, and everything to lose.


I have had two HR20s for a month...with virtually no problems:

One momentary freeze up (that didnt need a reboot)

Jerky FF which didnt effect the the programming. after a download then went away after a subsequent download.

One missed program that Im not sure I didnt screw up

Some Mpeg 4 pixelation...I think is a local problem because my H20 has that problem too...

On a subjective note:

the user interface is great...

Good build quality

Great price!!!!

Its already very good and its only going to get better.

Remember Bad News Travels fast and frequently...Good news is rarely communicated!

These Blogs make the HR20 look like a failure ...I beg to differ.... I some times cant believe that were talking about the same product.... these products are enormously complex be patient.:hurah: I left C-cast a month ago and I couldnt be happier.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

harsh said:


> What recent experience have you had with CS from alternative providers?


Recent discussions with cable co about upgrading from lifeline to digital. Dealing with cable company regarding cable modem service for past 8 years. And _plenty_ of bad past experiences in the distant past.

Talking to Verizon trying to verify FIOS availability and getting three different answers from three different people. Helping out a neighbor with their DVR via FIOS support. Dealing with Verizon's landline and wireless phone support many times over the years.

Dish...none since I decided to go with D*, so no direct experience there...only second-hand.


----------



## elvisizer (Oct 19, 2006)

here's my two cents- the directivo that i used for the last 4 years was the slowest computing device i've ever used. i did have to reboot it a few times, and i did have one hard drive die, which i replaced my self. it also NEVER EVER ONCE had an unexplained missed recording.
the hr20 i have now is very fast. it responds to the remote like the directivo never did. it has also missed nearly 50 scheduled recordings in 3 weeks.

i'll take a slow ass tivo, please!

though, i have to agree with earl about the series 3- I have not been hearing lots of warm fuzzies about that box either, so i don't think it would be a silver bullet. Still, since Tivo actually HAS released working DVR's in the past, i would think that they'd get it right eventually.
DirecTv has never released a working DVR at this point, so while i do hope for improvements, i have no logical basis for it.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

elvisizer said:


> here's my two cents- the directivo that i used for the last 4 years was the slowest computing device i've ever used. i did have to reboot it a few times, and i did have one hard drive die, which i replaced my self. it also NEVER EVER ONCE had an unexplained missed recording.
> the hr20 i have now is very fast. it responds to the remote like the directivo never did. it has also missed nearly 50 scheduled recordings in 3 weeks.
> 
> i'll take a slow ass tivo, please!
> ...


I have two Series2 DirecTIVOs and aside from the Season Pass Manager (moment of silence for the season pass feature please) they are both plenty fast enough. I had to replace the drive in my Hughes unit as well.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

elvisizer said:


> i'll take a slow ass tivo, please!


Yep, me, too.

I was thinking along the same lines the other day while rearranging a few SP's on my HR10-250 (still at 3.1.5). It's dog slow. BUT I know that when I set things up to record, they will.

While I prefer the UltimateTV or ReplayTV interfaces, I've come to appreciate the Tivo GUI (especially for other members of the household). But I'm not a fanatic about it; there's lots of room for improvement, and the HR20 appears to do many things better, some worse, and some just differently.

It's not a religious issue with me. I can deal with a new interface. I do, however, need a unit that works reliably 99.9% of the time...having to "babysit" or worrry about it doing its job properly takes away much of the value of a DVR for me.

I know that D* wants very much for their unit to meet this standard. I am skeptical that they can get there with their in-house development...but remain hopeful, as I'd prefer to stay with D* rather than move elsewhere.


----------



## yamaham (Oct 6, 2006)

I love my R10. It does everything I want and not only HOW I want, but how I EXPECT. The HR20 I have is working (knock on wood) without any serious issues others are experiencing, but it just doesn't feel right.


----------



## wakajawaka (Sep 27, 2006)

yamaham said:


> I love my R10. It does everything I want and not only HOW I want, but how I EXPECT. The HR20 I have is working (knock on wood) without any serious issues others are experiencing, but it just doesn't feel right.


I feel the same way, I have had very little problems with the HR20, heck even my wife likes it. But something just doesn't feel right. I got the HR20 after reading Earls review and after realizing I could get it for basically free. Maybe if I quit reading this forum the feeling would go away, after all if I never read this forum I would be fat dumb and happy with my box. But, I just can't pull myself away... It's like watching a bad car accident.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

I've had no real problems with my HR20. This is my first DVR and I've never owned a Tivo based unit, so i don't have ant reference point, but so far the HR20 has worked as advertised.

No dropped recordings. No partials. It's recorded everyhing I've asked it to. It runs much cooler than my H20. 

I'm still on the previous version of the software as the East Coast has apparently not yet received the latest "EB" update.

I like the fact that my H20 and HR20 have the same GUI.

Based on this, I would not pay extra for a Tivo.


----------



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not going to argue about DirecTV's customer service... that is completely different issues....
> 
> And the "we are Beta testers"... you all have your own opinions on that, and it really does no one any good to debate it.
> 
> You can go back to your Ultimate TV unit... the dish is backwards compatible. I run all my remaining tivos of the AT9 dish, with no problems.


Earl, your endless "apologies" and rationalizations for D*TV and its HR-20 are getting quite silly...why can't you just admit that D*TV's release of this box is STEPPING BACKWARD???? :nono2:

IF this box WAS RELIABLE, STABLE and had, at a MINIMUM, the features that ALREADY EXIST in 3-year-old technology in the HR-10 (dual buffers, OTA recording, etc., etc.), these comprehensive problems and resultant threads WOULD NOT exist!!!

Now before you go on and about MPEG4 being "new" -- no disrespect, but that was D*TV's choice -- us common folks don't give a hoot about the compression scheme. Simply give more capacity to MPEG2 (IF the LONG AWAITED "satellite capacity" EVER is allocated to HD PQ quality) and give us a box that works and were done!!!!

What the heck is the value of new "cool features" IF it DOES NOT do its basic function -- RECORD what you ask it to record!!!! :eek2:


----------



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> While I'd be one that would choose Tivo as an extra-cost option, I would guess that the split would actually dramatically favor the HR20 as the default and lower-cost option. But it's just a guess.
> 
> I also find it unlikely that Tivo attempted to play hardball in negotiations, but freely admit that I do not know. I think that NewsCorp figured they did it themselves with Sky, why not on this side of the pond?


DING, DING, DING!!! ...greed and control has killed many a good company that "forgets" about its customers....here is another one on its way!!!! :nono:


----------



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> There are plenty of companies that "got it right" but failed anyway... and plenty of companies that continue to get it wrong and stay in business. I could list a ton, but it's not the point.
> 
> I would say, D* has spent more money than any of us are likely to ever see putting a huge fleet of satellites in the sky. This is a massive investment. Now, people in upper management rarely like to lose money, so all I can guess is that Earl's right, they are trying their darnedest to make HR20 work. I'm sure there are those in the halls who say, "We shoulda never lost TiVo..." but what's done is done there.
> 
> ...


Great post! Despite my complaints, I am pulling for them too! But this HR-20 fiasco and HD-LITE are not great indicaters of their current management team -- they BETTER straighten this stuff out soon or just be another one of many "bad" choices out there.....


----------



## yamaham (Oct 6, 2006)

Some might consider this good, some bad - but we've been watching a lot less TV without the TiVo suggestion capability. I cannot count how many shows/documentaries/events we were turned-on to only because the TiVo thought we might like it.


----------



## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

yamaham said:


> Some might consider this good, some bad - but we've been watching a lot less TV without the TiVo suggestion capability. I cannot count how many shows/documentaries/events we were turned-on to only because the TiVo thought we might like it.


It is not a replacement for Suggestions, but I have been using D* My TV Planner. After just a week of training it, it is far better than My Suggestions. The other positive is that I can use My TV Planner from any PC, any time. The downside is that My TV Planner is PC based.

The My TV Planner tips and secrets to using it are below.

- Craig


----------



## vikingguy (Aug 1, 2005)

I for one left e* for D* specifically for the tivo DVR. I am not a happy about this whole situation. I work a lot of afternoon shifts so need a reliable dvr. I would gladly pay extra for a tivo based mpeg4 dvr. Right now I am in a bind because I bought a second hd-tv. I am either faced with paying an outragous price for a soon to be out dated hr10-250. My other option is to wait for D* to get hr20s in stock and OTA to be activated and beta test for D*. They should of atleast kept enought hd-tivos in stock to give out to people who won't get locals over sat for a long time and don't want to beta test a new box. I would not mind paying 99 or even 199 for a new hr10-250 with a limited life span. I sure in the heck don't want to pay 400+ for a used hr10-250 from ebay or 500+ for a new box. I am stuck with direct tv because I can't get cable or fios and the E* dvr only has 1 OTA tuner deal breaker.


----------



## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

I have no particular loyality to TIVO. However, there are some features that I like about the two Series2 DTivos I have. Rock solid reliability, upgradeable hard drives, true 30 second skip, dual buffers are going to be hard to leave, even for HD. After watching this board and the Series3 Tivo board, I'm convinced that they both need time to mature. The E* 622 is interesting with OTA, 30 second skip, the ability to record three shows at once, but the hard drive is too small, and they have no ability to upgrade it yet. Actually, this has saved me some $$, because I'm delaying purchasing a HD set. 

Right now, I'm considering a "generic" OTA HD DVR like the Sony in conjuction with my DTivos as a fall back position. (I've always been able to receive my LA locals) That would give me HD DVR for "24" and football and I'd muddle through on the other basic cable channels I get through D* with my DTivos until someone comes up with a complete HD package.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

FYI:
The hard drive in the HR20 CAN be upgraded... either via the external method (easiest), or you can replace the internal drive as well.

The only cavet (in both cases), you can not copy the existing drive to a new larger drive (retaining content), like you can with the DTivos/


----------



## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> FYI:
> The hard drive in the HR20 CAN be upgraded... either via the external method (easiest), or you can replace the internal drive as well.
> 
> The only cavet (in both cases), you can not copy the existing drive to a new larger drive (retaining content), like you can with the DTivos/


Do they plan on allowing esata upgraders to simultaneously use the stock drive? If so, is there a time table for that?

I would hate to need to buy a 500 GB to get 500 GB when a chepaer 250 GB, when used in conjunction with the stock drive should yield the same 500 gigs. Of course then a 500 add on would give you 750 but.....


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mikeny said:


> Do they plan on allowing esata upgraders to simultaneously use the stock drive? If so, is there a time table for that?
> 
> I would hate to need to buy a 500 GB to get 500 GB when a chepaer 250 GB, when used in conjunction with the stock drive should yield the same 500 gigs. Of course then a 500 add on would give you 750 but.....


In the long run, yes... but there is not even a hint of a timetable on when they may start to work on that.


----------



## drjenk (Sep 10, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not saying that the problems are not real... but I am not the only that hasn't had issues.


If it is indeed a fact that some are having problems with recordings, and some are not, and everyone that has problems is running the latest software, than it is not a software issue. It is a hardware issue swith some units. Not a design issue, but a production issue. This has to be the case, if some people do not have the problem.

So to that end, if you are having problems with your equipment I would demand a replacement unit be shipped, until you get one that works reliably.

I know I will, if the HR20 unit that I am receiving this Sunday has any problems at all. If it does, and I can't get a replacement, I will be moving on to somewhere that will provide me local HD, even if I have to pay more. (Comcast). I think the consumer needs to speak on this one.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

drjenk said:


> If it is indeed a fact that some are having problems with recordings, and some are not, and everyone that has problems is running the latest software, than it is not a software issue. It is a hardware issue swith some units. Not a design issue, but a production issue. This has to be the case, if some people do not have the problem.
> 
> So to that end, if you are having problems with your equipment I would demand a replacement unit be shipped, until you get one that works reliably.
> 
> I know I will, if the HR20 unit that I am receiving this Sunday has any problems at all. If it does, and I can't get a replacement, I will be moving on to somewhere that will provide me local HD, even if I have to pay more. (Comcast). I think the consumer needs to speak on this one.


Then how does that explain how those same people that have an issue with say 0xD8, but then havn't had one since 0xE3 (include those that got 0xEB)

And others had no problems since the release of the unit, till 0xEB

And others can do the RESET EVERYTHING (or the front panel format option), and then don't have a problem again.

If it was the hardware, then they would have a problem in each instance.

99% of the time, it isn't the HR20 hardware.


----------



## drjenk (Sep 10, 2004)

It is because it was directv's choice to go with mpeg4, and not mine, that I refused to pay one cent for an HR20 in order to receive local HD channels. 

I am already paying:
monthly local channels charge
monthly HD package charge
I bought a H10-250 2+years ago for $750
I bought a triple LNB dish for roughly $100, installed it myself

So the fact that directv had the gall to ask for $299 to upgrade my equipment so I could receive local HD, something I was ALREADY PAYING TO RECEIVE, was absurd. So after pointing out the above, they say "ah, I see we have a $99 special". I said no deal, if you cannot give it to me free then cancel me right here, right now. I was already prepared for this eventuality as I had already inquired on comcast HD, since I already get their broadband. So she did put me through, she began the procedings of cancellation, a couple minutes go by, and she asks what the problem was. I explain, and to my surprise this other lady sympathizes with me. She marks of $10/month for a year, if I pay the $99 for the box. So in the end they are paying me to upgrade. I think each and every one of you who are paying for service, that cannot receive it because of a new hardware requirement, should receive it for free, especially if you bought the original equipment yourself.

So now, I'm a little concerned about what I wished for. The HR20 seems to be a turd, I just hope I get lucky with my unit.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

drjenk said:


> that cannot receive it because of a new hardware requirement, should receive it for free, especially if you bought the original equipment yourself.


HD-Locals is a new service... and that new service has a new hardware requirement, MPEG-4 compatible receiver.

Granted there is no "extra" charge to get HD-Locals, if you have SD-Locals.
But they didn't "change" the hardware requirements...

Similar is true if you wanted Interactive features....
That is a new feature, that required a new receiver that was interactive ready.

Similar is true way back in the day, if you wanted NASA channel..
Before it was moved to the 101 bird, it was on the 110... so not only did you need a new dish... you need a new receiver that can work with that dish.

You are not the only one that has shelled out a pretty penny for equipment over the years... a lot of us paid more for that HR10-250 then you did, and a lot of others...

Now... with HD-SAT based broadcasts going to MPEG-4, now that is a change in requirements... but that hasn't happened yet... and DirecTV has stated that they will replace any non-mpeg-4 HD recievers, with HD ones.

So it is possible, when that time comes... and you have no other choice... that their will be no upgrade fee for the HR20... I said possible, as who knows what it is going to be, or exactly when..


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Similar is true way back in the day, if you wanted NASA channel..
> Before it was moved to the 101 bird, it was on the 110... so not only did you need a new dish... you need a new receiver that can work with that dish.


Funny you bring this up. It was the exact reason I paid $150 for my first 3 slot dish and had to get a new receiver for $99 since my way old Sony receiver couldn't see the 110/119 sats.

Of course then I had to get the Sat C LNB or get a new 3LNB Phase III when I got HD so I paid for a new dish, again.

At least this time with the HR20 I got the new 5 LNB dish for free. I think that's my 4th dish I've had in the past 10 years, most I have paid for myself. But it's my choice. I could still be using DirecTV with an old single LNB dish if I wanted to.

For drjenk, if you have had the HR10 that long you can get an HR20 for $99 at the most, free most likely. Just an FYI.


----------



## praneeth (Sep 13, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Here is my take on the article (like you thought I wasn't going to have one).
> 
> -) How come TiVo seems to get a pass, and doesn't do anything wrong? I mean the T3 has had it's share of issues in it's first three months.
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=51
> ...


All true, but it's an "Observer" at TVPredictions making these claims. Just one guy who got a bad box. Don't think we need to worry too much about the article. It's not necessarily the opinion of "TVPredictions".

I personally have had issues with my HR20 but I am now a believer. The speed with which you can record things by itself is I think enough reason to make this an upgrade over Tivo. I love the Tivo interface too but, cost and performance say that the HR20 (after a couple more updates) will be a much much better DVR. Think D* has done a good job here.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As a side note to that...
> 
> Now that I have 5 different "receivers"
> DTivo
> ...


I know I'm a little late to this party, but a common GUI doesn't mean much if they don't work the same. Right now the R15 and HR20 do have a common GUI. Yet using that GUI is different between the units. The same button presses on the R15 do not always perform the same functions as on the HR20. Common GUI isn't just the look. It's also the function.


----------



## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

If the new HD Tivo worked with DTV I'd order one tomorrow. Usually I'm the one that lusts for all the new gadgets. That purchase would be pushed by my wife though. She hates the interface on the HR20. She finds it very non intuitive and I agree. 
Standardization on a GUI is a good thing. Only pick a good GUI before you standardize.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Bizarroterl said:


> Standardization on a GUI is a good thing. Only pick a good GUI before you standardize.


Very good point. The GUI that DTV standardized on was that of their non-DVR units already in production. They spent no research on what a good DVR GUI was, is or could be. They took non-DVR units and added menu items where they thought they may fit. Very weak/non-existent development process.


----------



## opelap (Nov 4, 2006)

Call me crazy but I HATE the Tivo GUI. The reason my wife agreed to try the HR20 was that it was closer to the Ultimate TV GUI. Our DTivo was relegated to the computer room for my son to use.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I guess my point here is that GUI refers to the "look" and "operation" of a unit. Between the R15 and the HR20 (not even looking at the non-DVR units) these two units do not work the same. Right now, the 30 second slip works one way on the HR20 and a different way on the R15. I'd even guess all trick play features do not work the same between these units. Sure, the colors and fonts look the same. Sure the guide looks the same. But they are not the same.

This isn't a Tivo vs UTV vs Replay TV thing. If someone likes UTV great, if you like Tivo, great. But when you had a UTV or a Tivo, they all "looked" and "operated" the same. The R15 and HR20 don't. The reason we keep being told for DTV going their own way was for a common GUI. As of today, IMO they have not achieved that goal.


----------



## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

Hey Friends, 
Glad my article got some people discussing stuff here. Yes, I'm the guy you are complaining about what i said or even about my grammar/formatting. (some of which was done by TVPredictions, so stop blaming me)

Just as a response to the discussions here, I want to say:
1- Tivo isn't perfect, but it is great. It would be terrific to get full Series 3 type HD Directv box. A box you can network in your home to watch what was stored in another room on another Series 3 HD Directv Tivo Box.
2- The HR-20 isn't really perfect, you cannot even currently receive over the air broadcasts. 
3- losing recordings and having errors is just horrible. yes some people have had very few problems. but other people have had to replace their boxes 3+ times and the problems continue. 
4- Hundreds of thousands of people? Well many Tivo using customers of Directv would prefer to keep the Tivo solution. I am sure there are alot of us. it's a pure guess. so forget the number and just think about the issue at hand.

All of my thoughts were to not say Directv should cease it's new box, but instead offer up a Tivo made solution. Standardization of PVR viewing is a dumb idea. Some people may like the new PVR HD boxes. Others may like a Tivo bases solution. Either way, some people would like to still use Tivo. Which sadly would be put to an end when you want MPEG 4 content.

My thoughts remain, allow people to buy/lease and use a Tivo based solution. There should not be only a directv made box as a hd pvr box. There are obviously issues remaining with the new boxes. 

Thanks for your thoughts, i'll be here alot more now.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mitchelljd said:


> Hey Friends,
> Glad my article got some people discussing stuff here. Yes, I'm the guy you are complaining about what i said or even about my grammar/formatting. (some of which was done by TVPredictions, so stop blaming me)
> 
> Just as a response to the discussions here, I want to say:
> ...


:welcome_s


----------



## sthor (Oct 1, 2006)

My 6 year old Sony SAT1 DirecTivo works perfectly. It has done everything I need in a DVR since 2001 except now I need HD.

Why didn't some genius at D* just clone the old SAT1 features and add HD?

It would be a no brainer. They would sell like hotcakes. As it is I am seriously considering dumping D* after 6 years of good service and switching back to cable, which I detest, so that I can get a Tivo S3 to maintain the feauture set I have become accustomed to.

The HR20-700 adds nothing for me but HD and subtracts reliability, dual buffers and the 30 sec skip.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

sthor said:


> My 6 year old Sony SAT1 DirecTivo works perfectly. It has done everything I need in a DVR since 2001 except now I need HD.
> 
> Why didn't some genius at D* just clone the old SAT1 features and add HD?
> 
> ...


They did... it's called the HR10-250

For what ever reasons... DirecTV and TiVo decided to go seperate ways, and thus there was no MPEG-4 capable DirecTivo.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

sthor said:


> My 6 year old Sony SAT1 DirecTivo works perfectly. It has done everything I need in a DVR since 2001 except now I need HD.
> 
> Why didn't some genius at D* just clone the old SAT1 features and add HD?
> 
> ...


Look to eBay to pick up a HR10-250.


----------



## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They did... it's called the HR10-250
> 
> For what ever reasons... DirecTV and TiVo decided to go seperate ways, and thus there was no MPEG-4 capable DirecTivo.


from what i heard, DirecTV is the side that decided to do it on their own. Tivo very much wants to have virtually any and all companies use their software and programming.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

mitchelljd said:


> Hey Friends,
> Glad my article got some people discussing stuff here. Yes, I'm the guy you are complaining about what i said or even about my grammar/formatting. (some of which was done by TVPredictions, so stop blaming me)
> 
> Just as a response to the discussions here, I want to say:
> ...


Welcome, and nice article.

If you have not read them, you may be interested in these threads:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=69993

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=70009


----------



## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

bidger said:


> Go Earl!
> 
> Absolutely spot on, nothing's ever TiVo's fault, it walks on water, and it's sh!+ don't stink. No other DVR is even worth considering, even if it offers features TiVo can't/won't. Puhlease!


Amen brother.

I love the HR20-700S and good ridence to the HR10-250.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Blitz68 said:


> Amen brother.
> 
> I love the HR20-700S and good ridence to the HR10-250.


Again, the author's point was choice. If you dislike Tivo and love the HR20, great. Others feel differently. There are valid reasons for both points of view. One size doesn't fit all, and many would be happy to pay a bit extra per month for a Tivo MPEG4 option. Those who love the Tivo interface (and/or it's reliability) are naturally not pleased to lose it if they want to stay with DirecTV.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bwaldron said:


> Again, the author's point was choice. If you dislike Tivo and love the HR20, great. Others feel differently. There are valid reasons for both points of view. One size doesn't fit all, and many would be happy to pay a bit extra per month for a Tivo MPEG4 option. Those who love the Tivo interface (*and/or it's reliability*) are naturally not pleased to lose it if they want to stay with DirecTV.


As stated before in this thread....Amen Brother.

If the cost for a free DVR+ was $5.99/mo. I'd pay $9.99/mo for Tivo service and a MPEG4 HD Tivo capable DVR. I may also come up with $$ to purchase that unit. Of course this all would assume that the same capabilities available on SA Tivos were available on DTV Tivos. I wouldn't fall for those handicapped S2 units DTV was distributing. It must include MRV!!!
_
Text highlighting in quote added by Wolffpack_


----------



## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> As stated before in this thread....Amen Brother.
> 
> If the cost for a free DVR+ was $5.99/mo. I'd pay $9.99/mo for Tivo service and a MPEG4 HD Tivo capable DVR. I may also come up with $$ to purchase that unit. Of course this all would assume that the same capabilities available on SA Tivos were available on DTV Tivos. I wouldn't fall for those handicapped S2 units DTV was distributing. It must include MRV!!!
> _
> Text highlighting in quote added by Wolffpack_


Yes Yes Yes. This is exactly the point. Directv ought to offer up multiple solutions. If a HD tivo box that is networkable with other boxes in your home/office. why not let the customers decide. It would make them happy. US HAPPY!!

If people are happy with the new HR-20. great. but what about those who like tivo and would pay for it?

Almost makes me wish the FCC would force Directv and Dish to offer a Sat version of the cablecard slot card.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mitchelljd said:


> Almost makes me wish the FCC would force Directv and Dish to offer a Sat version of the cablecard slot card.


For that to happen... a lot more would also have to change.
You would have standardize Cable and Sat to the same distribution methods and technologies.


----------

