# Technicians Refuse to Install Eastern Arc



## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Let me take a moment to explain how I got to where I am now.

Around May of 2010 I received a letter from Dish stating they wanted me on a complete Western Arc setup. Upon receipt of the letter my setup was a Dish 500 pointing at 110 & 119 (Locals) and another pointing at 61.5 (HD). When the technician came out he first tried to install a 1000.4 (or is it 1000.2) setup but the signal was too weak so he instead swung my old 61.5 dish around to 129 and left my other Dish 500 pointing to 110 & 119. The 129 signal strength was better with the single dish than with the 1000.4 but still very low (20 – 30). He left and everything was fine for awhile. Over the course of the summer trees had grown up and were starting to block 129 so in October 2010 they sent another technician out to put my dish pointing at 129 back to 61.5. Cutting down or trimming the trees aren’t an option.

Earlier this week I get another one of those letters so I call Dish and this time they want to set me up on a complete Eastern arc. The next day a technician arrives who looks at my setup and says your not going to be able to get 72 and 77 due to trees. He didn't attempt to even try or use any equipment or device to confirm his suspicion. He just eye balled it and said nope and left. 

Something seemed off to me because I get 61.5 with a pretty decent signal (61 – 65). Satellites 72 and 77 are even higher in the sky so I shouldn't have a problem with them either. To confirm my suspicion I purchased the app for the iPhone that shows you the exact position of the satellites in the sky and as I had thought they are WELL above the tree line. See attached image.

I call Dish back and explain the technician didn't do anything but come out and eyeball the situation and left. They found this funny because the technician closed out the ticket as if he actually did the work. I explained to them he didn't do anything so they set up another appointment and the very same day another technician comes out with his 18 year old son. This technician explains to me that I need to be on 129. I said NO I am suppose to be replacing my Dish 500 dish currently pointing at 61.5 to a 1000.4 to pick up 61.5, 72 & 77. He explains to me Dish doesn't have satellites 72 & 77. I knew I was in trouble at that point so I said yes they do and asked him if he wanted me to call Dish to confirm this. He said no and called his dispatch (Speaking in Spanish). He hangs up with dispatch and says I don't need to worry about moving anything now because the channel migration from 61.5 won't start till March of 2012. I said OK but that isn't the point. Your here now why don't we just take care of it now so I don't potentially lose channels down the road. He refused and left as well. 

I call Dish back again. They are totally amazed so they set up another appointment and this time put some sort of special notice on the work order so the technician knows exactly what he has to do. The technician arrives with what appeared to be his mother two hours before the window of time he is suppose to. I'm awaken from bed because I work nights and answer the door and explain your early. He says yeah I only had two jobs to do today and I figured I would just get them out of the way. So after I let him in he asks so what seems to be the problem? He says I see here there is some sort of special note about this account and a continuing problem your having. I explain the situation and he goes to look and immediately starts talking about 129. I explained no I needed to be put on an Eastern arc. Then he went to explain that he couldn't put me on an Eastern arc because he couldn't get me the required signal strength that he has to get in order to install it. He says nothing about the trees just says he can't achieve the level of signal required. He pulls out this piece of paper with a list of the required signal strengths that he is suppose to be able to achieve for him to set up that way. All the numbers were in the middle to upper 60's. A little stronger than my current 61.5. (Keep in mind they had no problem putting me on 129 with 20 -30 signal strengths back in early 2010). I said how do you know without even trying? He said I have been doing this a long time trust me. I said well can't you use some type of device or tool other than your eyeball to confirm this and he just stood firm that he knows what he is doing. He said something about how much money he makes and the amount of time required to actually try it. He then called his dispatch (Speaking in Portuguese) and left shortly after without doing anything. 

I call Dish again and this time find out he had his dispatch put a note on my account saying that I can't get 72 & 77. As far as I'm concerned this isn't true or at least hasn't been confirmed. Two of these technicians were talking to their dispatch in a language I don't understand so I don't know what they are actually saying to dispatch when they call. It appears to me that the last technician realized that I was going to keep calling until someone set up my system or at least attempted so I'm guessing he just called his dispatch and told them he tried everything possible and can't get a signal. Of course I'm just guessing because I don't know Portuguese but how does he know for 100% certainty that he can't set it up if he hasn't tried. We know for a fact 129 doesn't work for me because at least they tried. It worked for a few months but then was blocked by trees.

So three technicians have been here now. One didn't even know there were such satellites 72 and 77 and none of them bothered trying, testing or anything.. Just eyeballing.

If they can set me up on 129 back in early 2010 with weak signal and a satellite that was very close to a tree line (as noted above over the course of one summer it was blocked) how come I can't get them to install a setup for 72 & 79 which is much higher in the sky and much farther above the tree line than my current 110 & 119 or old 129.

If I can pick up 61.5 with pretty much the same signal strengths (61 - 65) I get for 110 & 119 why couldn't I get 72 & 77? I have confirmed through the iPhone app that the satellites are well above the tree line. I'm the only person that has actually used some sort of device to determine where the satellites are. None of the technicians have done so.

I'm aware that dish 1000.4 might provide weaker signals seeing as it has to pick up three of them but shouldn't the technician at least try? I was even thinking that if for some strange reason a 1000.4 provided too weak of a signal couldn't we just use another Dish 500 to pick up 72 & 77? I don't know if this is even possible or necessary just thinking out of the box. Plus if my current 61.5 can get signal strength between 61 - 65 I have no problem with signal strengths around that range for 72 & 77. Even if Dish supposedly requires them to be able to get lets say a 67 shouldn't I be the one who gets the final say? I would rather have a set up with a signal of 50 than missing channels. The old 129 I had setup with signal strength ranging from 20 - 30 worked just fine all summer till the trees grew in the way.

My question is what would you guys suggest I do? From what I have read channels are going to be moving off from 61.5 to 77. 129 is out of the question for me. My only option is to get onto 61.5, 72 & 77 somehow. 

On a side note I will still need to keep the Dish 500 I have pointing at 110 & 119 because my Miami, FL locals are on them. The Eastern Arc setup has West Palm, FL locals.

Thanks in advance for any recommendations you can provide on how I can get this problem resolved or at least proven it isn't possible other than eyeballing.

Kevin.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

So - what it comes down to is that your MIAMI FL locals are on 119 / 110 (both SD and HD), but the rest of the HD channels on 129 can't be reached because of trees. You have had 61.5 in the past, but don't know about 72.7.

If you can get the Dish people to LISTEN - what you need is to keep the Dish500 on 110 and 119, and add either another Dish500 on 61.5 / 72.7 or an Eastern Arc (61.5 / 72.7/ 77) dish, and you need the LNBs 61.5, 72.7, 110, and 119 on a DPP 44 switch. 

Your best approach for this would probably be with a local installer company that will work with you to get EXACTLY this arraingment.

This will work as long as the Miami locals are not available on Eastern Arc.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

If I go through a local installer company won't I have to pay for it? It would seem to me that dish should do this.. 

Everything you mentioned seems correct although you seem to have left out 77 in a couple places? Is that just an oversight or are you suggesting I don't need it? For example you wrote this:

what you need is to keep the Dish500 on 110 and 119, and add either another Dish500 on 61.5 / 72.7 or an Eastern Arc (61.5 / 72.7/ 77) dish, and you need the LNBs 61.5, 72.7, 110, and 119 on a DPP 44 switch. 

Two different options one with another Dish500 or one using an Eastern Arch dish.. Your second option mentions the 77 satellite but your first option doesn't? 

As far as I know I need 110, 119, 61.5, 72.7 and 77 to receive all the channels I should be capable of. If Dish would move my locals onto the Eastern Arc as well that would eliminate 110 and 119. 

Thanks,
Kevin


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

77 is being used just for locals, of which Miami is not currently one. That MAY change when the new satellite for that slot is launched. And if that does indeed become the case - having an EA dish would be an advantage.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

I wasn't aware of that.. Thank you very much..

I gather from your response one Dish500 can pick up both 61.5 and 72.7 if I have the correct LNBs. 

I'm under the impression that one Dish trying to pick up two signals may weaken the strength of each satellite. I have no idea seeing as no on has actually tried but if that is the case then couldn't we install two Dishes? One for each Satellite?

Currently I have one Dish500 for 110 & 119 (Working perfectly), one Dish 500 for 61.5 (Working Perfectly) and if we can't get the Dish500 servicing 61.5 to pick up both 61.5 and 72.7 at a decent signal strength add another Dish500 for 72.7. 

Granted not the ideal situation but seems to me better than losing a customer.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I have a little information that I hope helps at least a little.

The part about the EA signal being too low so he would not install it, he is not making that up. In the Tampa area, I was told the same thing. In fact Tampa was moved back to the WA for that reason, after being set-up on the EA for awhile. The signal is high enough, except for the heavy rain. Rain fade was more of a problem with EA, so Dish officially has gone back to the WA, at least for the Tampa area. That was what the installer here said. (And I can confirm Tampa in back to the WA)

Now, I also live in Ct. I have a mixed Arc set-up for a couple of reasons, and it works great. I have what I think you need to have given the information you gave. Stay on 119/110, add 61.5/72. That will get you everything, as mentioned as long as 77 does not start to be used more widely, which at this time is not likely.

I am using two dishes, a 500 for 119/110, that hooked into a 100.4 getting 61.5/72, the 500 dish goes where 77 would have. Four sats.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Tampa8 thanks for the help.. 

As far as Eastern Arc being too low on the signal strength side I don't know what they consider too low? I have had 61.5 for over 2 years now with no problems and a solid signal strength right around 61 - 65. I'm guessing 72.7 would be right around the same strength. My 61.5 numbers aren't much worse than my 119 which gets a signal strength of 69.

I want to stay with Dish. I can accept a weaker signal on EA as compared to having to leave Dish and move to ComCrap!

I'm still looking for advice on how to get an installer to actually come to my house and do the work rather than just throw their hands up in the air and say nope and leave without even doing a damn thing.

Frustrated.

Kevin.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I never had any of the EA in Tampa. In Ct, those signals are somewhere from 55 to 65. WA is 75 to 85. That is enough of a difference in bad weather for one to not have an interruption, and the other to be out for a short while. In good weather it makes no difference. I can well imagine with the much heavier downpours we get on summer afternoons in FL, it is possible to lose the EA more often and longer than the WA.

In your case, that really does not matter since you can not see 129. That should be enough to get them to order a mixed arc for you. Maybe one of the CSR's on this site can help. (In my case not only can I not see 129 in CT, I get distants, only available on the WA, so I had no problem getting them to install a mixed set-up)

Just to help with the frustration about ARC's, it really is understandable that Dish wants a one ARC set-up. That is the only way they can make sure you get all the channels you are supposed to. The mixed set-up described does too, but Dish knows you are not getting 77, while unlikely, it could carry national channels at sometime. 

To answer your other question, there are still some channels on 61.5 that I believe are not on 110/119. Also, I would want all the sats described. If one goes down, Dish might move channels to the other for awhile. (As they recently did)


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Tampa 8 thanks again!!

I don't seem to have a problem calling up Dish and having them send out technicians. Although I'm sure after the last tech had his dispatch put a note on the system saying it can't be done (without actually trying anything) it may be a problem now. 

I'm going to wait till Tuesday of next week before calling back. Have stuff to do over the weekend hence won't be around for anyone to get the job done anyway if they do show.

The problem is the technicians that do arrive won't do the job once here.. It's obvious the job is more complicated than a normal install hence takes them longer and requires more equipment so I'm guessing they make less and don't want to do it?? Who knows amazes me not one of them even bothered to try.

Can anyone explain how or if it is even feasible for a tech to just eyeball a job and tell me nope can't do it? Especially seeing as I can get 61.5 with no problems at all. Is it just me or wouldn't you think they should be required to at least try by either setting up a dish or using some sort of device to check before just saying no?

Kevin


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I don't understand why you are getting "Eastern Arc" letters when you are living in a Western Arc market. Something strange going on in DISH's computer.

With the "split arc" setup you have now you are missing HD channels that are part of your subscription. With an Eastern Arc only setup you would be missing all of your local channels (you would only have locals via OTA reception). Eastern Arc is not the solution for people in the Miami, Florida, market.

Even the creative 119-110 + 61.5-72.7 install (two Dish 500's) you would be missing your local PBS channel in HD via satellite. Miami is a WESTERN ARC market.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

James, I'm guessing since I can't get 129 they realize my only option is to have a setup that will allow me to receive 72.7 seeing as they are migrating channels from 61.5 to 72.7.

Missing PBS on Dish is the least of my concerns seeing as once the migration from 61.5 to 72.7 happens I will lose pretty much all my HD channels.

Kevin.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

The more I think about this I'm wondering if because I'm technically in a Western Arc market if the technicians in my area just don't have the knowledge/equipment/LNBs to set me up on a mixed WA/EA setup that I require due to the migration Dish is doing from 65.1 to 72.7?


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## gtal98 (Jan 30, 2011)

Dish installation standards nowadays are to get everyone on a single arc setup - mixed arc setups are discouraged. The reason they want this is because it will allow them to move channels around between the 3 sats on a given arc and no one will be affected, with mixed arcs they can't guarantee that.

That being said, the 4 sat solution suggested earlier will get you everything you want, at least for now. However it is not considered a standard install, and the installers will not get paid accordingly for the extra amount of work it requires. I have only done it once, and it's a lot of extra work.

Now, the image you have from your phone - was that taken where your 61.5 dish is, or somewhere else on the property? Because that only means you can get those sats from where you were standing, not necessarily where your dish is. Have you tried using the app to find a location where you can get 129? Because moving the wingdish to a place to get 129 is the absolute best solution.

And when you say the installers are "eyeballing it" - do you mean with the naked eye? Or are they looking through a small silver handheld device (an inclinometer). Because using an inclinometer is how we determine if we have acceptable LOS to any given satellite. If we can't get it with that, no one will waste the time to setup a dish and "try" to get the signal. Because all we will do is end up putting holes in your house to get nothing, and waste our time for no financial benefit (no completed job = no $). If they are not using an inclinometer, then they are not doing their job properly.

Looking at your local channel list - all the SD locals are on 119, and all the HD (except the PBS James mentioned) are on 110. So assuming you want HD, and losing the SD feeds doesn't bother you, what I would suggest is a EA dish, with the 110 feed fed into the EA LNB. This would eliminate the need of the 44 switch and all of the extraneous wiring. This would then be a "normal" 2-dish solution and loosely classified as a standard install. You would probably have an easier time getting an installer to do this setup, than one involving a switch.

I would still walk around the property to try and find 129 from somewhere though, that really is the best solution.


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## coldsteel (Mar 29, 2007)

It could also be with the NLOS on 129, they're trying to get him to EA with a wing for 119 for the locals. I'd call and request an FSM to do just such a thing.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

I read your original post to be 129 was lower than 119 for signal strength. Nobody has suggested using a larger dish combined with a different location, to get 129 at acceptable levels.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

gtal98, yes by eyeballing that is exactly what I mean. Not one technician used any type of device what so ever. They just looked with their naked eye. 

The image from my iPhone was taken while I was standing right next to my Dish so that is the view my current 61.5 Dish has of the EA. 

Your idea about the setup eliminating the need for a 44 switch would be acceptable to me.. I don't watch anything that isn't in HD that I'm aware of. I haven't double checked your facts but as long as I don't loose any channels I would be fine with that setup. Are there still some channels that are only broadcast in SD only? If so would I lose those? That could be an issue depending on what channels they are.

Unfortunately 129 is out of the question. There are trees in the way that I can't trim or cut down and can't move the Dish to get around them anywhere on my property.

coldsteel, what is NLOS and FSM?

boba, when they first installed my 129 the signal was very weak but workable and maybe a larger dish would have helped back then. Unfortunately, now there are trees in the way and I don't think that will help any longer.

Thanks for all the input everyone.. 

I have heard reasons why the technicians may not want to do my job due to the special setup I require but I haven't heard anyone's opinion on what Dish's policy is on these? Do they do the custom install and keep a long time customer or just drop them?

gtal98 stated that seeing as I don't have a standard install the technicians won't get paid accordingly. I'm guessing that is why non of them actually have done the job, especially seeing as one of them did mention the money aspect. Plus, I'm guessing I need additional equipment than a standard install and they probably didn't have that with them which of course involves more time.


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## brant (Jul 6, 2008)

kejebe said:


> . . . .He said something about how much money he makes and the amount of time required to actually try it. . . . .


the guy's not getting paid to try something that he's pretty sure won't work. can you blame him? i think if he felt there was a good chance he could get a signal, he'd do the job and collect his pay.



kejebe said:


> If I go through a local installer company won't I have to pay for it?


not to be a smarta$$, but you get what you pay for. seems pretty obvious in this situation.


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## gtal98 (Jan 30, 2011)

NLOS - No Line Of Sight
FSM - Field Service Manager

It sounds like to me that you have been dealing with subcontractors so far, and not direct Dish Network employees. Unfortunately some areas are only covered by contractors as DNS offices don't exist everywhere yet. Next time you call in request that Dish send out an "internal technician" - not a subcontractor. They are required to honor this request if they can (i.e. you are in a Dish office's territory). 

The major difference is subs are paid by the job, and Dish employees are paid by the hour (but get bonuses for being fast and productive). Because of this subs are usually less willing to do a little more to keep a customer. As I said before though, the dual dish & 44SW setup is not considered a standard install, and even Dish employees will be hesitant to do it. My other suggestion should be seen as a standard 2-dish solution and be acceptable though. I forgot to ask though - how far apart are the two dishes? If more than 80ft of cable you're still going to need a switch for power reasons.

As far as the SD/HD goes - all national channels are in SD and HD on both arcs. It would only be the SD versions of your local market channels you'd be losing. Look in the Local Channels thread in the stickies of this forum - it lists each channel and what sat the SD/HD versions come from.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Independent of actual reception problems that the thread starter may be having... I would find it very annoying to have Dish telling me I need a certain config, agreeing to it, and then the guy that Dish sends (subcontractor or not) won't do the work and then appears to be making up stuff when he reports back.

At the very least... Dish needs to get its subcontractors to be on the same page as Dish... otherwise they open the door to all kinds of customer frustration.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

It sounds like you already have 2 D500's. If you also have a DPP44, you have all the equipment you need to get 110,119,61.5 and 72.7, unless the second D500 only has one lnb.

If you indeed already have 2 D500's with two lnb's on botha d a DPP44, just connect up the second lnb on the D500 pointed at 61.5 and do a little tweaking and you have all the channels you need.

Otherwise you need a new DPP twin head for the D500 looking east to get 61.5 + 72.7.

As has already been said, the 77 satellite has no HD on it, it is not needed in your situation.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

gtal98, Thanks for the pointer on asking for an internal technician. I'm pretty sure that the three technicians that were here were all sub contractors. My two Dish's are sitting right next to each other and the run is 10 feet from Dish to receiver..

Stewart Vernon, I agree 100% and yes I'm very frustrated.

Jim5506, Yes I currently have two Dish500's. The one pointing to 61.5 only has a single LNB on it though. So if I'm following what everyone is saying they would just need to swap out that LNB for a dual LNB and tweak the position of that Dish to pick up 61.5 and 72.7. 

Doesn't sound like a major job to me. Sounds like someone could be in and out in less than 30 minutes.


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## [email protected] Network (Jan 6, 2011)

Wow. This is a terrible story, and I am sorry about the frustration. I got your PM pointing me the direction of this thread, and thank you for bringing it to my attention, Kejebe. If you could PM me the account number or phone number, I think I might have a solution to all this and can monitor that solution from my end.

I WILL get this handled for you though, one way or another. Sometimes, just not having to deal with it (other then being available during the "window") can relieve a lot of the stress.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Anthony, PM sent.. Thank you so much!!


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Independent of actual reception problems that the thread starter may be having... I would find it very annoying to have Dish telling me I need a certain config, agreeing to it, and then the guy that Dish sends (subcontractor or not) won't do the work and then appears to be making up stuff when he reports back.
> 
> At the very least... Dish needs to get its subcontractors to be on the same page as Dish... otherwise they open the door to all kinds of customer frustration.


This is where a local retailer should be able to help. Unfortunately, DISH has been marginalizing the local retailer for quite some time. Many retailers have quit and many that remain complain. I see this on the dealer website all the time.

Now granted not every retailer is perfect but I am willing to bet a retailer will go the extra mile more often than a subcontractor will. The retailer's business hangs in the balance.

With that being said, DISH should become more proactive and allow the local retailer and even the ROR (Retailer of Record; the local retailer who sold the system and installed it) to do all necessary repairs and upgrades. After all, they are the local experts and are familiar with the area, dish configurations, and the install itself. Unfortunately, DISH ignores the local retailer in this instance. Why, it's gotten so bad that DISH will compete against a retailer on a customer upgrade.

How long can this go on before the Retailer throws in the towel and closes? Then who would be the local expert? The subcontractor who eyeballs a line of sight?


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## gtal98 (Jan 30, 2011)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Independent of actual reception problems that the thread starter may be having... I would find it very annoying to have Dish telling me I need a certain config, agreeing to it, and then the guy that Dish sends (subcontractor or not) won't do the work and then appears to be making up stuff when he reports back.
> 
> At the very least... Dish needs to get its subcontractors to be on the same page as Dish... otherwise they open the door to all kinds of customer frustration.


I agree - but Dish up to this point has not suggested the configuration we're talking about. They've just sent guys out for work orders to put in an EA dish - which would in fact remove the OPs locals completely. So Dish CSR's aren't always on the ball either.

The actual Dish configuration is largely determined by the Technician onsite because we're the only ones who know which satellites have what channels, and what the customer can actually receive due to LOS issues. It's just a sad fact that some technicians care about the customer more than others - it's just the way the world works unfortunately.

kejebe - I'm glad TonyT is finally on this, I hope he can get things straightened out for you. Keep us apprised of the situation.

MrRick - Dish's long term plan (I believe) is to eliminate subcontractors completely and bring all installations in-house to the DNS offices. So the local expert will be a direct Dish employee and they therefore have more control over the entire customer's experience, without relying on any 3rd parties at all. This is many, many years away from happening to the whole country though.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

gtal98 said:


> I agree - but Dish up to this point has not suggested the configuration we're talking about. They've just sent guys out for work orders to put in an EA dish - which would in fact remove the OPs locals completely. So Dish CSR's aren't always on the ball either.


Agreed. CSRs often suggest or even promise things that techs can't deliver, for various reasons.

Here's some things folks need to know:

- A tech only gets paid when a job is completed. Techs therefore have a financial incentive to complete a job. BUT, if the job cannot be completed to Dish's standards, or will have other problems, techs have a financial incentive NOT to do the job.

- Dish *requires* the signal strength on each satellite to meet local standards. A QC tech will test 4 transponders on each satellite, both from the dish as well as *from EACH tuner on EVERY installed satellite receiver*, and if any one transponder falls below the threshold, the entire job is an instant QC fail.

- As mentioned, the configuration Dish is recommending is the WRONG one, because the OP is in a Western Arc territory and being offered Eastern Arc, which would result in the loss of his local channels. Techs will understand this, because they've likely been charged back in the past for jobs they completed per Dish's instructions and then had the customer complain to Dish. Techs know their local market and what sats need to be picked up.

- Dish does not make it easy, or financially equitable, for a tech to use a non-standard equipment setup and still get reimbursed for the equipment used and remain compliant with the QC standards. Thus, any time a tech does something outside of the norm, he risks his pay and his stats. This is because Dish strongly prefers "standard" installs, as they give Dish more flexibility at the lowest cost.

Yes, all of that means that the relatively few folks who need something non-standard can find the going difficult. Sometimes it means going outside the system with a private installer (that you have to pay yourself), and sometimes it even means having to switch to another provider.

Remember, though, that a company with 14 million customers can only go so far to accomidate an individual "exception." It's the nature of big business.

Dish seems to be on track to fix some of these issues with future sat launches, which will have different footprints than the current EA sats at 72.5 and 77, which were repurposed from other orbital locations, and that will likely solve the signal strength issues and allow places like Miami to be moved to EA. But it will be a couple of years before those birds are up and active, so Dish has to do what they have to do right now.


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

Yes and perhaps if Dish could find some good installers that at least made an effort to help the customer, then maybe there customer service rating would be higher. But when you get lazy installers that don't want to do the work or lie to Dish about completing a setup when no work was ever done, then you wonder about installers. Any installer that just shows up and looks to the sky without even taking reading or pulling out his campass or meters is giving Dish a real bad name in the installer department and costing Dish customers. Because if it were me I would call all my family and friends and tell them do not get Dish, they have lazy installers and you can't count on there work. You have to remember the average person does not know about DBSTalk and coming here to get answers to there questions. Or have a Dish rep right here to help us out. So what would you do as a average person without this support here? I do know there are some great installers out there that do what it takes to help the customer.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

gtal98 said:


> I agree - but Dish up to this point has not suggested the configuration we're talking about. They've just sent guys out for work orders to put in an EA dish - which would in fact remove the OPs locals completely. So Dish CSR's aren't always on the ball either.
> 
> The actual Dish configuration is largely determined by the Technician onsite because we're the only ones who know which satellites have what channels, and what the customer can actually receive due to LOS issues. It's just a sad fact that some technicians care about the customer more than others - it's just the way the world works unfortunately.


To be fair here... I see blame to go around (not to the thread starter, though. He seems quite reasonable, rational, and hasn't exploded yet like some of us might in his situation).

Dish has to take blame for sending sub-contractors out without details of how to handle the job and for not following up to make sure the job was done and for not being aware of potential issues in some markets.

The subcontractors have to take blame for not attempting to work at all with the customer, apparently communicating false info back to Dish to clear the work order, and for not trying to educate Dish about potential issues unique to that particular location.

I've worked with a local installer several times... not a Dish subcontractor... and he was very good. He would tell me what he wanted to do... I would tell him what I would like him to do... and we either agreed to do it my way, his way, or had reasonable discourse about why one of the ways really wasn't ideal.

To me, that's how an installation should go... There are some things that the technician will know best and should not compromise just because a customer wants it... similarly, there are things a technician should be prepared to do IF a customer asks a reasonable thing... and last, but not least, all such things should be explained to the customer.

I, for instance, have a 2-dish Western arc... because the installer and I agreed that since I previously had a wing dish anyway, it made sense to keep using it and point it at 129 because I would get better reception that way... he didn't force a one-dish solution on me and didn't refuse to do the work. He also spent time checking line-of-site before starting and gave me a rough plan on where he wanted to put the dishes.

There are good techs, and bad techs... and there are good Dish reps and bad Dish reps... true for most companies.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Here is a brief update as to what is happening behind the scenes. 

Anthony contacted me on 5/8/11 and since then we have been in touch a couple times via PM. He is waiting to hear back from either a FSM or DNS. Does anyone know what DNS is? I know what it is for the Internet but not Dish?

Thanks everyone for your continued contributions to this thread and for your many different insights from a variety of perspectives. It has been very helpful.

I will be sure to keep everyone up to date as Anthony and I work our way through this situation.

Kevin.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

DNS *D*ish *N*etwork *S*ervice Corporation, the installation division of DISH.


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## [email protected] Network (Jan 6, 2011)

Boba is correct.

When we say "single dish installation" it is more a general reference to arcs, such as EA or WA installations, which is mainly to eliminate loss of channels during a channel migration and prevent calls about missing channels. Some areas of the country still require two dishes due to being in low signal areas (24" dish pointed at 129 or whatever).

Get back to you, kejebe. **EDIT** On phone with DNS currently.


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## [email protected] Network (Jan 6, 2011)

Well, I was able to speak with the FSM familiar with the job. He actually spoke with me directly to avoid confusion, and provide me with as much information as he could.

He started by telling me that three separate installation companies have rolled on this job, along with "official" DISH techs, and all of all of them have reported the inability to complete the work and provide the necessary signal to pass QAS. All of this was confirmed in the notes. He said that based on his experience, and the experiences of his techs in the apartment community you live in, he would not be able to place the dish where it would need to be in order to receive adequate signal based on its size. It would have to go on the roof to be pointed the way it needed to be, and the property manager had expressly told him “no” in the past at other installs in the same complex. He basically said that installing this in the only location available would actually cause signal issues that would result in trouble call after trouble call, a risk that no tech was willing to take.

Apparently, the dish reflector is too large to aim it properly at the current location and would basically be limited in motion due to physical obstructions, not by anything in the distance. If he brought it to a point that was still approved and the dish could move freely, the points that would have restricted the motion of the dish would then be obstructing the line of sight. He was very apologetic about the job, and wished he and his techs could have provided the installation. He also said that he was sure that the other techs that showed up over the course of this ordeal would have rather earned the money for the job instead of turning down the work.

Hopefully this clears things up.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

That answer took me by surprise. I don't see where the OP ever mentioned he was not in his own home, but in an apartment. Now what each of the three installers said makes sense. It just reminds me to scrutinize more before offering advice.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Anthony,

Thanks for looking into this I sincerely appreciate your time.

Unfortunately the information the FSM supplied you is basically no different than the information I provided in my original post! It boils down to the technicians say nope can't be done even though not a single one of them did or tried anything.

Lets break this down into the three issues the FSM mentioned:

#1 The FSM sates that I can't meet QAS? Seeing as NO technician actually tried anything how are they so sure? What is this magic QAS number that I have to meet in order to qualify for an install? I already have 61.5 installed so that must have passed QAS I can't see any reason 72.7 wouldn't?

#2 The FSM further states installing the dish would cause signal issues that would result in trouble calls? You will note there isn't one single trouble call on my account for my current Dish500 pointing to 61.5 since the dish was first installed in January 2009.

#3 Apparently, the dish reflector is too large to aim it properly? I'm not sure where that information came from. Not one single technician mentioned anything about there not being enough room? How could there not be enough room? I already have the Dish500 here? I'm under the impress it just needs to be adjusted a "tad" to pick up 72.7? Plenty of room to move that dish around. As a matter of fact if the problem is that moving that Dish would cause signal lose or that for some strange reason the dish just can't be moved at all I have more than enough room to actually put another Dish500 right next to the current 61.5 dish and point that single dish at 72.7.

So where does this leave us?

Kevin


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

> So where does this leave us?


Move to another residence.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

tampa8 and SayWhat,

I appreciate the information and insight you have shared in this thread but I hardly find the fact that I live in a condo as compared to a single family home of any importance. There are plenty of issues that may arise no matter what your living arrangements are.

It all boils down to LOS which I have. 

I'm sure there are plenty of people with beautiful single family homes and 10 aces of land but their only opening allowing them LOS is a tiny little opening between some trees that they don't own on their neighbors land that requires the dish to be placed 200 feet away from their house. 

My set up is on my balcony which in my opinion makes the install much easier than having to climb up the side of a house with a bunch of equipment or running cable all over the place looking for LOS. They walk out on my balcony attach the pole to cement slabs I have on the floor, move the dish around and bingo. Done!

Sincerely,
Kevin


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

> It all boils down to LOS which I have.


Apparently you don't. At least not sufficient LOS for the service(s) you want.



> It boils down to the technicians say nope can't be done even though not a single one of them did or tried anything.


They probably have tried many, many times for other locations in your complex and know when it's an effort in futility.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

It's hard to say whether or not the techs in this case have been forthright or have been doing their job and communicating to the thread starter properly...

It does make a difference being a renter in an apartment or condo as opposed to a home that you own... because the landlord has to give permission to drill into things like the roof or walls... so without that permission, the installers have very limited options to just common use areas.

With that in mind... even a small degree variance (say from 61.5 to 72.7 or 77) could be possible for one but not the other... the condo itself could be in the way of the line of sight on a balcony install... and if they can't put it on the roof, then there isn't any reason to actually go try anything. It would be a known issue.

IF that proves to be the case... those techs would have done themselves and Dish a HUGE favor by communicating this to the customer rather than making stuff up to tell him.


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## [email protected] Network (Jan 6, 2011)

kejebe said:


> It all boils down to LOS which I have.


When I spoke with the FSM, he mentioned he was bound by regulations enforced by the property manager as far as the number of dishes and placement. He was also bound by DISH to provide a quality of the signal that he knew would not be provided based on the property restrictions. He was on site and I have to take the word of the numerous techs and the FSM on this one. I don't like the answer, but I don't get to change it for that reason.



kejebe said:


> #1 The FSM sates that I can't meet QAS? Seeing as NO technician actually tried anything how are they so sure? What is this magic QAS number that I have to meet in order to qualify for an install? I already have 61.5 installed so that must have passed QAS I can't see any reason 72.7 wouldn't?
> 
> _Didn't know the magic QAS number the signal would have to meet off the top of my head, but I researched it and found that he would have to provide between 64 and 75 points of signal for a WA installation (57 points to 129), and ranging from 45 to 60 points for an EA installation (60 points being for the 61.5, which you do get with the "wing" pointed directly at it. It would go below that when the dish is "averaged" across the 3 satellites. The FSM (whom you actually met on the most recent visit) mentioned that a single dish would not work for EA. As far as multiple dish installations, I offered to set that up and the FSM said that he would be violating the property managements terms of installation._
> 
> ...


As far as the situation at this point, I cannot override the decision in this instance. I have exhausted any means I have to assist.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

And that brings us back to finding another place to live.

One could go through the process of fighting the landlord in court for placing unreasonable limits on satellite dishes ... assuming that all the dishes installed would be within private use areas and not encroach on common space ... but it sounds like there is no line of sight from the government protected private use areas.

The number of dishes shouldn't be a problem, but placing them all within private areas could be. There is nothing in the law that limits the customer's protection to ONE dish or even one service. The law protects any dish up to one meter needed to receive the desired signals. But the dish(es) are not protected if they are in common use areas.

The law protects those who want satellite dishes, but only to a certain point.


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

There is a third option. The OP can go to solidsignal.com and purchase a Dish and install it himself. They only run about $ 100. Yoiu never know. The OP could prove the Techs and installers from Dish wrong. Do we know for sure the OP doesn't own the condo himself. If he does own the condo then we have Gov regs that say he is allowed to put in a Dish.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

kejebe, perhaps it's time to post pictures of your balcony, view from ground, etc.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Anthony,

Thank you so much and I totally understand the situation your in and how you feel your hands are tied.

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I read it sounds to me that if I can have three dishes we are good to go?

In your previous post you didn't mention that your FSM spoke with my property manager? Not sure if this was just a simple oversight or if this is additional information you obtained from your FSM after I mentioned the fact of possibly using three separate dishes?

If you could supply me with the FSM name's, the number he called and the person he spoke with at my management company that told him "he was bound by regulations enforced by the property manager" in regards to the number of dishes I can have it would be greatly appreciated. I then will have some information to go back to my management company with and resolve this.

I own this property and have been in touch with my property management company. The only restrictions they gave me was that it couldn't be in a common area, on the roof and that I couldn't drill into the walls or floor hence I am using concrete slabs. I was given no limitations on the number of dishes.

*edit* I re-read your post and noticed you said the most recent tech was the FSM? Is that correct? The one who brought his elderly mother who didn't speak any English (Portuguese native tongue) and arrived two hours early awakening from bed because he only had two jobs scheduled that day. Not to mention he placed a call to whom I assumed was his manager, I now stand corrected seeing as he is the manger, but if he was speaking in English and not Portuguese maybe I could have figured that out for myself. I'm sorry but if that is the FSM it just didn't seem very professional to me. My boyfriend was here and witnessed the entire thing. He speaks Spanish hence he informed me they were speaking in Portuguese.

Kevin.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Lets clear up some confusion.. Seems people are getting side tracked  It's a long confusing thread.

Take a moment and re-read Anthony's last two posts and you will see it boils down to this:

*The problem*: It is a QAS issue using a 1000.4 dish.

*The solution*: We will instead place another Dish500 right next to my current Dish500 pointing at 65.5.

**This solution is confirmed* in Anthony's last post where he stated "_As far as multiple dish installations, I offered to set that up and the FSM said that he would be violating the property managements terms of installation_."

Seeing as the FSM is mistaken or improperly informed about my rights as the property owner and what I may or may not place on my private property this is no longer an issue.

To be clear this isn't a LOS issue, space for a 3rd dish issue, rental issue or any of the other conclusions some of you have come to 

Thanks again for all your posts within this thread! I appreciate the support and interest and have learned a lot from everyone.

Sincerely,
Kevin.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

And then you'd be without locals.


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## gtal98 (Jan 30, 2011)

kejebe - Please provide us with some pics of your balcony area and dish setup, it will help us think through this more. There are limitations to how a dish can be "properly" mount in order to pass a QAS, and it may be possible that a 1000.4 EA dish would be too wide to turn and pick up the signal. But we need pictures to understand.

Adding a 3rd dish would require a 44sw and we're back to a non-standard install again. Dish would probably want to pass the cost of the 44sw on to you.

I'm starting to ponder another suggestion, which isn't perfect. That is to just re-aim your 61.5 dish at 72.7. For now while the HD is still split between the 2 sats you would still be missing some channels (ones that you now have). However the plan (AFAIK) is to move all HD to 72.7 eventually, so you would end up getting those channels back in time instead of continuing to lose them as you are now. Unfortunately no one knows what Dish's true timetable is for this.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Try 110, 119 and 61.5 and 72.7 on two different D500's.


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## [email protected] Network (Jan 6, 2011)

kejebe said:


> Anthony,
> 
> Thank you so much and I totally understand the situation your in and how you feel your hands are tied.
> 
> ...


I am sorry you feel he wasn't very professional, but it does seem that he knew what he was talking about when I spoke with him. I went through every option of building a work order that I had, and he said that in a normal situation any of those options would be available, but in this instance (rare as it is) he could not.

He spoke to me very clearly about this job (again, he asked to speak with me directly when I called in to DNS). He explained the situation, basically what he and the techs were and were not allowed to do, and said that the job could not be completed as ordered, regardless of any modification to the original work order.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

We got dead end ...


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Tony,

It seems we are going round and round over QAS so I propose the following.

If I can confirm that I can meet Dish's QAS can we get an install scheduled?

What is the needed QAS I need for 72.7? Your prior post

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2777230&postcount=39

states 45 - 60 for 72.7 & 77. Can you please confirm that is correct and if so which transponder should I use for testing.

Once I have confirmation I am going to go out on my porch, slide my current 61.5 dish over 2 feet (Where I want the third dish installed) and point it at 72.7 myself. Then I will come inside and take a picture of my Television confirming the signal strength I am picking up.

Thanks,
Kevin.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm 99% sure I can do what I have proposed above but I'm not 100% sure of the steps I should take.

If anyone would like to share some insight it would be greatly appreciated.. I'm thinking once I set the dish at the following coordinates:

Zip: 33305
Satellite: 72.7W NIMIQ 5
Elevation: 58.3°
Azimuth (true): 163.5°
Azimuth (magn.): 169.6°

The receiver inside should change and start showing 72.7 instead of 61.5. Obviously there will be some tweaking needed to the alignment but I wanted to make sure I have the basic steps correct? Will I need to do a check switch?

Of course all this will be a moot point if Tony comes back saying even if you verify an acceptable QAS we are still not going to do the install. Why that would be Dish's stance would be beyond me but the way this entire process has been going for the last two weeks who knows these days.


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## [email protected] Network (Jan 6, 2011)

Again, the issue is the location of the dishes. Could you provide a photo of where the dishes sit?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Getting a letter from your property manager specifying where the dishes could be installed would be a good start. Your problem is a common one ... association or apartment complex rules that limit what installers can do. Being proactive and being able to demonstrate permission to install the dishes may go a long way toward resolving your problem.

If there is an issue with where you want the dish mounted (encroachment upon a common area) your property manager would be the best person to explain it to you. It seems that you want DISH to do all of your work for you ... you want the installers to handle your property manager when at the end of the story that is your job.

Perhaps it could have been explained to you better ... it may just be the language barrier. From the limited area where the installers can put the dish they cannot get an acceptable signal. If you can show them that you have permission to put the dish someplace where it CAN receive a signal it will help.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Tony,

Yes I can but it will have to wait till tomorrow. It is dark outside now.

Please let me know exactly what you need to see in the picture so I make sure I have everything your looking for.

Kevin.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

James,

Thanks for the info! 

The area we are talking about is on my balcony not encroaching upon any common areas. The only rules they have are no holes in floor, walls or ceiling. If I eliminate all my seating I have room for 6 dishes out there if I wanted to put them out there.

Associations can't legally limit the number of dishes I use on my own private property. They can only set limits and controls for common areas of which we aren't talking about in my situation..

Kevin.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. 
Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. 
Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. Pictures. 

Please.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

kejebe said:


> I'm 99% sure I can do what I have proposed above but I'm not 100% sure of the steps I should take.
> 
> If anyone would like to share some insight it would be greatly appreciated.. I'm thinking once I set the dish at the following coordinates:
> 
> ...


You should try it yourself. 1st post pix of the dishes. Especially the 61.5 one. It is probably one w/ a single LNB on it that is not centered on the dish. If that is the case we will be able to tell by the pix. If it has the LNB on the right side of the dish from behind then you may not have to move it west at all. It may just need the LNB put on the left side and skewd to catch where 72.7 is then you could add another LNB to the side where 61.5 is and get both with a little peaking. 
TonyT I'm surprised that you weren't able to help him. This is another option and all it would need is another LNB & a DPP44 switch w/power inserter. Look at here to get the skew & elevation etc for what I suggesting http://www.dishpointer.com/


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Tony,

Yesterday I made this post:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2777960&postcount=50

Asking for information on QAS specifications for 72.7 and you responded with "Again, the issue is the location of the dishes. Could you provide a photo of where the dishes sit?"

Please see attached pictures and notice plenty of space for a 3rd dish if required, plenty of space to move existing dishes around and that 61.5 has a clear view of the south eastern skyline.

I hope that these satisfy the location argument.

If for ANY reason these pictures don't satisfy what you need to verify so I can have an install done could you please provide me what the QAS / transponder requirements for 72.7 as I originally asked here http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2777960&postcount=50

I will move my current 61.5 over to the 72.7 spot myself and see what I can get.

After doing so If I can then prove I can meet Dishes QAS will you schedule the install?

Thanks,
Kevin


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Not sure what QAS tpn is, but I know those main [HOME] tpn on each sat, it's carry software, guide and some other system data.

61.5 - tp29
72.1 - tp21
77 - none
118 - tp7
119 - tp19
110 - tp21
129 - tp21
121 - tp21


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## gtal98 (Jan 30, 2011)

OK, now I'm starting to get the picture here. 

Issue #1 - that mounting method is not approved by Dish network. We have specialized patio non-pen mounts that must be used that include a metal frame roughly 3'x3' and require 9 cinder blocks to be put on them as ballast. You would need 2 of these in order for a technician to complete your install and pass a QAS. Non-approved mounting methods are an auto-fail. The fact that the poles are multi-piece only compounds the issue.

Issue #2 - The 61.5 dish looks like it is shooting just to the left of that tree. It may be that 72.7 is actually far enough to the right that the tree begins to be an issue. When you used the app on your phone was the phone at the same height as the dish? Or were you holding it up higher? You need to do it where the dish would actually be.

There are also issues with the wiring too (barrels, no GB, no ground wire) - but those can be easily corrected.

Unfortunately it's impossible for me to truly verify if you have LOS from pictures. I definitely question if you have LOS to 72.7 or not. I'm not saying you don't, but it would definitely be tight if you do - probably less than the 5* of clearance Dish requires.

If you were to get it to work, you would pretty much lose all of your balcony to 2 of the non-pen mounts I mentioned earlier.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

gtal98 said:


> OK, now I'm starting to get the picture here.
> 
> Issue #1 - that mounting method is not approved by Dish network. We have specialized patio non-pen mounts that must be used that include a metal frame roughly 3'x3' and require 9 cinder blocks to be put on them as ballast. You would need 2 of these in order for a technician to complete your install and pass a QAS. Non-approved mounting methods are an auto-fail. The fact that the poles are multi-piece only compounds the issue.
> 
> ...


If he switches the 2 dishes then he will have more room for hitting both 61.5 & 72.7 and I doubt that it will be a problem for 119. As far as the QAS it's looking more like he just needs to do this one himself if he can. 1st thing he can do is get pointing angles from dish pointer and see if he skews the dish with the LNB in the left side inside of the right side of the Y yoke he will be able to find out if he can hit 72.7.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

gtal98, the install your looking at was done by Dish.

Here is a screen capture from my iPhone standing right on my balcony where 72.7 would be placed.


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## [email protected] Network (Jan 6, 2011)

kejebe said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2777230&postcount=39
> 
> states 45 - 60 for 72.7 & 77. Can you please confirm that is correct and if so which transponder should I use for testing.


I have the minimum signal thresholds on a per satellite and transponder basis for your area. I can certainly answer that question. Internally, the ones I have to look at (specific to your DMA Miami/Ft. Lauderdale) are:

Sat 61.5 Trans 10 14 29 31
Signal Strength 55 59 59 51

Sat 72.7 Trans 15 17 19 21 
Signal Strength 42	39 39 45

Sat 77 Trans 13 16 20 21
Signal Strength 40 38 45 41

These are minimum STB signal strengths listed here, but do not necessarily guarantee that all channels would be provided. You asked, and I answered.

Now, toss in the fact of how they would have to "correct" the installation to conform to QAS guidelines (not only limited to signal strength, but proper mounts, wiring, and yes, there is a "cosmetics" factor in there) while achieving these signal strengths, and also the longevity for which a tech can be confident you will retain that signal strength, it then becomes a whole different animal. But hey, if you feel you can do it on all three, and conform to QAS, then by all means, have at it or contact a retailer.

As far as DISH is concerned, your photos have put enough doubt in my mind that I would not build a work order to roll a truck back out there. You are free to contact a retailer if you so choose and see what they say. Understand that a retailer is still bound by a "code of install" and that you may receive the same answer. I have heard that they are a little more "experimental" in installations, and they should cover the installation warranty of 60 days if you have a problem.



whatchel1 said:


> You should try it yourself.


If he can get it himself, awesome! But from what I can see, the techs are refusing due to the questionable nature of the install, what it would take, and how many times a tech would have to return in the near future (its growing season and that tree looks to be healthy) which means they would get dinged for a trouble call. I still suggest a retailer.



whatchel1 said:


> TonyT I'm surprised that you weren't able to help him.


I think this is the first time I have to say that I cannot be of assistance, and that he would need to try a different channel (retailer) to attempt it. I don't like the answer, as I mentioned to him in PM, but I am not going to force a tech to go against his better judgment. As I said, the many techs (looking like at least 6 in the past week) all say that based on required installation code (both DISH's and the apartment managers) they could not provide the signal needed with any assurance it would work at all.



gtal98 said:


> Issue #1 - that mounting method is not approved by Dish network. We have specialized patio non-pen mounts that must be used that include a metal frame roughly 3'x3' and require 9 cinder blocks to be put on them as ballast. You would need 2 of these in order for a technician to complete your install and pass a QAS. Non-approved mounting methods are an auto-fail. The fact that the poles are multi-piece only compounds the issue.
> 
> Issue #2 - The 61.5 dish looks like it is shooting just to the left of that tree. It may be that 72.7 is actually far enough to the right that the tree begins to be an issue. When you used the app on your phone was the phone at the same height as the dish? Or were you holding it up higher? You need to do it where the dish would actually be.


As gtal98 mentions, QAS is not just about signal, its about the whole job, and how it looks. If a tech thinks it will come back to bite him I cannot force them to do the work. From this point, I would not tamper with it. Contact a retailer and see if they can do it. They may be more relaxed in what they are willing to try (as I mentioned before) and will cover the warranty of 60 days on the installation as well.

I do not think you should attempt pointing the dish yourself, in all honesty though. If you cannot get it back to where it is now, DISH will charge you a re-installation with a custom work order mod (repositioning dishes due to customer tampering). Again, my recommendation in your situation is to contact a retailer.


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## gtal98 (Jan 30, 2011)

kejebe said:


> gtal98, the install your looking at was done by Dish.


I don't doubt that it was done by a representative of Dish (sub, retailer), but there is no way it was done by a DNS technician (we don't even have half of the stuff I see in that picture available to us). I know from the customers perspective there's no difference (and there shouldn't be), but to us installers it's installs like that that drive us nuts. If I rolled on your job I would have to change everything like I said, or refuse to work on your job. There are about 50 things we're checked on during a thorough QAS inspection, if any 2 things are wrong it's a fail. You can fail for just one thing being wrong too depending on what it is. (#1 being proper mounting of dish)

I know it seems like you're kind of getting shafted - but with apartments/condos we're very limited since we have to setup on your balcony. You have to remember that this is how we make our living. If we fail to many QAS's we will lose our job. I'm sorry, but my job is more important to me than your HDTV. If I can't do a job to spec then I won't do it.



kejebe said:


> Here is a screen capture from my iPhone standing right on my balcony where 72.7 would be placed.


From that picture LOS appears to be clear. All I can tell you at this point is that I'm understanding why the installers are not wanting to do it. You are welcome to call a retailer or try it yourself as Tony suggested though. If you need help doing it yourself I'm sure everyone here will be happy to help.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Simply add a DPtwin lnb to the D500 with the single lnb and tweak the direction a little to the right (4-6 degrees) and raise it 1-2 degrees and you have 110, 119, 61.5 and 72.7 with all the channels you need. Your signal levels on 61.5 and 72.7 will be a little lower than optimum, but it does work (careful tweaking might make it as good as a "professional" install).


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm so tired of the QAS blah blah blah! I get it. DNS personal have to follow the rules or potentially be fired.. Dish Retailers can do whatever they like. It is 100% ludicrous.

TonyT (Dish Internet Response Team) has provided me with THREE possible scenarios:

#1 Contact a retailer and MAYBE they can do it. (That is clearly an admission from a Dish Network Representative that they are fully aware not all Retailers follow the same set of QAS rules Dish has in place. Nice operation going on there. Retailers doing installs that don't meet Dish's QAS so later when customer needs help Dish tells them they can't help you because you don't pass QAS. Wow how familiar that feels? Ridiculous! I refuse to pay money for someone else to do it. The only reason I'm staying with Dish is because it is cheaper. Trust me I would love to just cut the plug. Paying someone else to do it defeats that purpose.)

#2 Do nothing which will end up resulting in lost programing. (which of course makes the service not worth keeping)

#3 Leave Dish

The end results, due to Dishes refusal to help me in any way what so ever, is fix it myself or go to Comcast. If I fail I'm no worse off than Tony has left me.

Awesome position to be put in. Thanks a lot!

One unhappy Dish Customer


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## [email protected] Network (Jan 6, 2011)

kejebe said:


> I'm so tired of the QAS blah blah blah! I get it. DNS personal have to follow the rules or potentially be fired.. Dish Retailers can do whatever they like. It is 100% ludicrous.


If anyone had mentioned that a retailer was not obligated to follow QAS, then I apologize. I do not think that was mentioned on the thread. In fact, my statements were that a retailer might be able to assist you in this. Being that I (DISH) has sent multiple techs to your home, and all of them have said the job was not going to work, that I could do nothing more.



kejebe said:


> TonyT (Dish Internet Response Team) has provided me with THREE possible scenarios:
> 
> #1 Contact a retailer and MAYBE they can do it. (That is clearly an admission from a Dish Network Representative that they are fully aware not all Retailers follow the same set of QAS rules Dish has in place. Nice operation going on there. Retailers doing installs that don't meet Dish's QAS so later when customer needs help Dish tells them they can't help you because you don't pass QAS. Wow how familiar that feels? Ridiculous! I refuse to pay money for someone else to do it. The only reason I'm staying with Dish is because it is cheaper. Trust me I would love to just cut the plug. Paying someone else to do it defeats that purpose.)
> 
> ...


I gave you two options, both of which were sound. One, contact a retailer and see if the retailer could provide an installation for you. If so, its fixed and no more problems. Two, attempt to move it yourself (which I did not recommend). While I could not provide a work order myself to get this handled, and I am sure anyone who has had me assist them knows that you are the first case of that, I gave the two options still open. Neither of them were to "do nothing," and I do not want you to cancel. Situation as it is, I would certainly understand if you were compelled to do so.



kejebe said:


> The end results, due to Dishes refusal to help me in any way what so ever, is fix it myself or go to Comcast. If I fail I'm no worse off than Tony has left me.
> 
> Awesome position to be put in. Thanks a lot!
> 
> One unhappy Dish Customer


This is untrue, by your own admissions in your original post. Multiple techs have been on site which shows there is _not_ a refusal to assist, there is simply a limit to what can be done, and I apologize for that. Secondly, I am thankful you gave me the opportunity to try and help, and I wish I could have done something more to provide you with a piece of mind. If that rests the blame squarely on my shoulders for the situation, then I am willing to accept that. Again, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to attempt to help.

I am reminded of a phrase: "No good deed goes unpunished."


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

I think it is obvious that I disagree with Dish's current QAS policy that ultimately keeps Dish technicians from doing totally worthy installs due to fear of being fired.

Compare these two scenarios. (Keep in mind my current setup is non QAS compliant yet up till a week ago I was a happy Dish Network customer for 2+ years).

#1. (My current situation) Send three technicians to customers house who do absolutely nothing and claim they can't do the install due to QAS. Customer then is forced to go to public forum looking for additional options and is shut down by Dish Networks Internet Response Team with same QAS issue.

#2. Send one technician who actually tries the install which can have three different out comes.

A. Customer can meet QAS and everything is fine. (Dish did all it could do)
B. (I have been non QAS compliant for 2+ years and a Happy Customer) Customer doesn't meet QAS but has a signal. Technician informs customer that you have a working signal but with the space customer has available they are unable to obtain a setup that meets Dish's QAS specifications. Due to this there could be service outages and dish will no longer provide support for this dish. (Customer is now an informed customer and can choose to keep non compliant setup and see if it works for them or leave to another provider. Dish did all it could do)
C. No signal available (Customer then has a decision to make. Dish did all it could do)

Which way seems like a more customer friendly approach!

Dish Networks QAS is preventing scenario #2 from ever happening. Scenario #1 is never going to result in a happy customer.


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

Kejebe, as I said You can pick up a Dish 500 pro with the twins and a DPP44 switch from www.solidsignal.com for about $ 200 if you want to run it yourself. 
Only you can decide if you want to go to cable or do your own setup. Lets not blame Tony because he has to follow the guide lines. These are the guide lines for Dish Network. All employees that work for Dish have to follow them. The Dish reps on here do an outstanding job of helping any on here with many problems and concerns. Lets not blame the messenger please. As all on here have said, if you want to try it yourself we will be more than happy to assist you however we can. Good luck with whatever choice you decide to take.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Dave, thank you for the information on what I need to complete the setup I require. I have all ready started a new thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=192985 on this topic because this will be my first install and it covers more the install aspect rather than the unhappy with Dish support aspect 

I'm excited about doing it because I like projects like this but I'm also disappointed because I feel that Dish has failed me for a service I'm paying for and enjoy.

I don't blame Tony. He needs to keep his job just as the Dish Technicians do. If I came across as Rude to Tony I hereby apologize. I'm just frustrated and disappointed that the company he represents has a policy in place that isn't carried out 100% equally everywhere and I'm getting the **** end of the stick.

I clearly have a problem with Dish's QAS requirements and I really feel if more people would start submitting their setup's (pictures) and signal levels we would see that Dish has a severe issue when it comes to QAS across their entire customer base.

To me is just doesn't seem fair or good business practices that I am stuck in the situation I'm in because Dish chooses to adhere to their policy in this once instance.

It's like Russian Roulette with Dish.. Just depends on who comes and does the install for you..

Clearly not the way it should be!

Kevin.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

Kejebe your original post looked like you might have a legitimate complaint, as the story progresses the only thing that comes to mind is ... I can understand why no sensible installer would touch it. Those look like 18" square stepping stones which a good breeze should reposition.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

That is so sweet Boba! I don't know you yet you feel you know me well enough to call me names. 

Those so called stepping stones weigh over 50lbs and have worked perfectly for 2+ years when Dish first used them to install my setup.. 

Living in South Florida I have my share of violent Thunderstorms.. NON of which have moved a single dish!

One of the pluses about those so called stepping stones is I can easily move all my equipment inside if there is a threat of a hurricane.

Kevin.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

[email protected] Network said:


> (not only limited to signal strength, but proper mounts, wiring, and yes, *there is a "cosmetics" factor* in there)
> 
> QAS is not just about signal, its about the whole job, *and how it looks*.


How it looks is irrelevant. How it works is what matters.

But I can see why techs don't want to do this job.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

I understand why Dish installers will not do this job. Dish has become very strict with their install requirements. I have done jobs at apartmentments and condos because Dish installers could not meet the grounding requirements. I was a QC Inspector at a Nuclear Power Plant and Dish standards are rediculous because you can't even do a justification for not following them. I do not understand why you are unwilling to pay someone to do a custom install.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

> Dish has become very strict with their install requirements.
> 
> Dish standards are rediculous because you can't even do a justification for not following them.


I have to say that this thread is not putting Dish in a very favorable light as far as being customer oriented. I've never been particularly fond of 'it has to be our way or else'.

I understand there are normal guidelines and goals, but I really don't understand why none of the 'techs' so much as pulled out a scope or meter to test for a signal.


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## butters (Sep 25, 2007)

It could be that the techs, after seeing the setup, decided that regardless of the signal strength that the install would fail QAS based on the mounting method currently in use. The problem I have here is that Dish had no problem setting this up with the concrete slabs in the first place so I can understand the frustration that has arisen now that this method is deemed "not approved".

Because of this I feel that Boba is being a little harsh with his criticism. It was, after all, Dish that installed it this way to begin with. Hardly, one can't blame kejebe for this as it was installed this way initially. This only strengthens the argument for consistency across the board for all techs and installers so that the future issues don't arise out of improper installations and setups in the first place. 

I say if this setup has worked in the past as it appears to have, then by all means do it yourself and see how it goes. Good luck.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I've debated about posting in this thread. But I feel that it is important to note here that I am someone who has learned from experience.

What I've learned is that sometimes the techs in the field (including supervisors) just don't get it - give the customer the equipment he/she wants and have them sign a form relieving Dish from responsibility.

My original HD experience would have been amusing had it not been so frustrating. On the third tech visit I was fortunate enough to have a guy who agreed to install the 129º Dish per rules but without a very good LOS. He left. The next week I reinstalled it where it needed to be.

This isn't a task for an impatient person who doesn't have a meter. But then, I had been dealing with satellite TV for almost two decades and had been tweaking my 110º/119º dish for years.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

butter said:


> This only strengthens the argument for consistency across the board for all techs and installers so that the future issues don't arise out of improper installations and setups in the first place.


I see it same way - those installers feed us such excuses for reject do their job by that backfire what they getting from Dish *not *for non-compliant installs but because of calls from customers after.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

_Let's everyone watch the insults here... If you can help, help... if you can't, don't._


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## gtal98 (Jan 30, 2011)

phrelin said:


> give the customer the equipment he/she wants and have them sign a form relieving Dish from responsibility.


If only it were that easy.... Any time we complete a job we then "own" that job. If a QAS decides to go and check that job, and the customer has rearranged stuff on their own in a non-approved manner we fail. Doesn't matter if the customer accepts the responsibility or not - our tech code is the last one on the job and we fail. We may not get written up for it - but any fail on your record will keep you from getting promoted for at least 2 months.

And Dish's plan to bring all installations in house to DNS is so that things *will* be consistent across the board. They know this is an issue - it's just a slow plan in place to battle it.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

There was a time when we did our own install(s) without such hassles ...


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## bnborg (Jun 3, 2005)

Kevin,

Try Dish Depot.

They are a Florida retailer and offer free next day installation, at least for some counties.

Brian.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

P Smith said:


> There was a time when we did our own install(s) without such hassles ...


People doing their own installations wouldn't be a problem IF they didn't call Dish and demand they fix something that resulted from an improper installation.

I'm not saying Dish is perfect... they are far from it in several areas... but IF a customer would install him/herself and never complain... then companies wouldn't have a problem... but customers will complain if they do it themselves.

So... it is best for Dish to distance itself from such things... and it would be dangerous for any Dish employee to go on record and encourage a customer to do a custom job himself, because that would put Dish on the hook to fix it if problems arise.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> People doing their own installations wouldn't be a problem IF they didn't call Dish and demand they fix something that resulted from an improper installation.
> 
> I'm not saying Dish is perfect... they are far from it in several areas... but IF a customer would install him/herself and never complain... then companies wouldn't have a problem... but customers will complain if they do it themselves.
> 
> So... it is best for Dish to distance itself from such things... and it would be dangerous for any Dish employee to go on record and encourage a customer to do a custom job himself, because that would put Dish on the hook to fix it if problems arise.


I understand the need for rules. But....

I live in a modified A-frame design home in the redwoods and earthquake country.

About twice a year I have to crawl up the ladder to adjust the dish on the 3rd story roof for 110°/119°. Dish's tech folks would consider it a perfect install. And it is, just not on a modified A-frame in earthquake country with the LOS through a space in between redwood trees. The house is specifically designed to shift a bit in earthquakes. And the space between two redwood trees requires precise aiming or I lose signal when the wind blows.

I reinstalled the 129 dish myself on top of a garden planter because it had to be positioned on my garage roof deck for any LOS, but about 6' higher than they would install it. You see, the Dish install would look perfect in any inspection when the wind wasn't blowing. But with the wind blowing, it was basically useless junk.

Redwood trees grow like an "A" and when you have two 120' trees forming a "AA" it may appear fine to aim it in the space halfway down. But when the wind blows the the trees may bend as much as 8'. Your line of sight has to be centered in the middle of the upper quarter. I'm sure that's on page 372 of the manual, but my installers didn't have that particular manual with them.

My reinstall has worked for years now though I have adjusted it once.

Sometimes the rules are fine. But when you sort through them there is no section on how best to install a dish on a modified A-frame located in the redwoods and earthquake country.

And when you have rules that are inflexible, what the customer feels like he is getting is "I'm sorry you think you're not getting a signal, but the paperwork tells me you are because the install meets all our rules. So shutup and go away."

Under those circumstances, installing it yourself or reinstalling it yourself is the only solution. If it gives Charlie's expert minions a headache, why should I care?

They get my payment each and every month and any more I only complain to them when one of the boxes die.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

I do my own also. I did the initial install back in the mid 90s and the move to another house/state in the late 90s. I don't trust 'techs' and don't like them messing around on my property. The one exception was when they came out and changed the LNB to a dual and added a switch. But they stayed outside and never entered the house. Once they finished, I came inside and checked the signal strength and other items, then sent them on their way. They were never concerned with QAS.

I've had to re-point a few times since and I've never called Dish about signal problems.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

phrelin said:


> I understand the need for rules. But....
> 
> I live in a modified A-frame design home in the redwoods and earthquake country.
> 
> ...


Yes, but as you say... you don't complain to Dish about your installation because you know you did it yourself and you don't expect them to deal with problems caused by your improvised installation.

You and I are alike in that way... in that IF I did my own installation, I wouldn't complain about installation issues either.

The problem... is that most customers who self-install will still complain to Dish and expect them to fix problems that they caused themselves. You know people will complain. Dish knows people will complain...

So, yes they risk losing a customer IF they don't feel they can do a proper install by their rules... BUT it is better to lose that customer, than gain one who complains regularly and they keep having to go out and fix something they wouldn't have installed in the first place.

Give an inch... they ask for a mile... that's human nature... and sometimes companies have to know when a customer isn't worth the effort.

As I've said... I'm not sure Dish always does a good job at communicating things to prospective customers. In this particular case, it sure doesn't sound like Dish adequately explained the situation to the customer as to why they wouldn't even attempt an installation for him. That's where they dropped the ball... lack of communication.

But it sure sounds like they might have made the right decision not to do the work, because it doesn't seem like there is a good way to get the signal necessary in this situation... so I can't blame them for not trying now... but I can blame them for not properly communicating with the customer.

It's like the mixed arc situation that Dish got themselves into years ago... Instead of fixing the problems, a lot of people were given mixed arc installations which now have become a problem with where they are putting new HD... and a lot of customers are missing out on channels because they aren't pointed at the right satellites.

Dish brought this problem on themselves by allowing/encouraging the mixed arc installs and it is coming back to bite them now!

Same problem when Dish was connecting people to distant locals that by law the customers weren't entitled... and Dish went to court over that and lost the right to have distants even to people who did qualify as a result!

Again... cases of Dish doing things to gain customers that were against common sense, logistics, and sometimes law... and all came home to roost eventually.

Dish needs to be smarter and more communicative... but also needs to know when a customer is not really a customer because they would have to jury-rig something to get the customer working.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Good post, very true. I have a mixed arc, I can't see 129, but need 110/119 for distants. (At the time, now only 119) They didn't really want to do it, but the installer went to bat on the phone when he got here and got it done.

Should Dish start to use 77 for channels I get, I won't get them, but I also will not complain to Dish, as I posted in one of the PR reception threads. I will handle it if it happens. But many would be complaining to Dish about it. Even though I get distants, they were very reluctant to authorize a mixed arc, for good reasons. I should be an EA. So an instillation performed by them needs to meet specs they are comfortable about, that the subscriber won't be calling them back all the time. Do it yourself, that is different and you can do unorthodox things. Dish can correctly say they did not do the install.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

I just completed the migration myself in under 30 minutes and improved signal quality across all three orbitals.

OLD SETUP 110 & 119 with a 61.5 wing dish.
NEW SETUP 110 & 119 with a 72.7 wing dish.

Everyone has their own opinion on how Dish handled this situation, personally I think they failed miserably.

I have been been with Dish for 2+ years with zero problems. Last week Dish sent me a letter notifying me that I needed a migration. I didn't contact Dish they contact me!

Keep in mind my original Install was done by Dish.

Technician #1 Said I don't have LOS (False, I have confirmation)
Technician #2 Said there are no such Orbitals 72.7 and 77 (Enough Said)
Technician #3 (FSM) Pulled out a piece of paper showing me signal strength requirements I needed to meet and said I couldn't. (False, I have confirmation).

I then come to this forum and begin this thread. TonyT immediately tries to assist by contacting his FSM who gave him one reason after another as to why it CAN'T be done. In a nut shell that was the end of any help from TonyT other than telling me I could try a retailer. Not one single other option or alternative. The migration couldn't be done due to Dish's QAS policy. Dish basically was washing their hands and leaving it up to the customer if they wanted to leave Dish or Pay a retailer. Do you seriously think that was the right decision Dish made? Obviously paying someone else to do something that I feel Dish should be doing was out of the question.

With the support of many on this forum I went out on my balcony today and moved my 61.5 dish to 72.7 in under 30 minutes. I'm very appreciative for all the support from all the DBStalk & Satellite Guys members.

While I was migrating 61.5 to 72.7 I had to lower the dish due to 72.7 having a higher elevation causing the roof of the balcony to block some of the signal. Upon completion I also noticed improved reception on my 110 & 119 dish. 110 jumped from 75 to 80 and 119 jumped from 69 to 78. I'm guessing the old 61.5 LNB that used to be in front of the 110 & 119 dish (originally installed by dish that way) was blocking some of their signal.

This entire thread could have been avoided if what I did today in less than 30 minutes with no prior knowledge or equipment other than my receiver was done by the very first technician that arrived to do the migration.

According to TonyT: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2778674&postcount=63

The minimum signal thresholds on a per satellite and transponder basis for my (specific to your DMA Miami/Ft. Lauderdale) are:

Sat 72.7 Trans 15 17 19 21
Signal Strength 42 39 39 45

and here are my actual results:

Sat 72.7 Trans 15 17 19 21
Signal Strength 60 51 61 50

Is my system QAS compliant? NOPE!
Do I care? NOPE
Do I get all the channels included in my package? Probably not and probably never have seeing as I've always been on a mixed arc setup.
Do I care? NOPE

Do I get all the channels I actually desire to watch? YES who really watches every single channel included in a package anyway.
Did repositioning my Dish's actually improve signal? YES
Do orbitals 72.7 & 77 exist? YES
Do I have LOS to 72.7? YES
Did I meet Dishes minimum signal thresholds for 72.7? YES
Did I have room to move my Dishes around? YES
Did I improve signal quality across all three satellites? YES

Thanks again everyone for your support..

I have added a reminded to my calender to post back here on a monthly basis letting everyone know how my self migration is holding up. Seeing as I never had a problem with 61.5 I don't forsee any future problems with 72.7. Down the road if Dish decides to jockey channels around again we will worry about that when the time comes. In the meantime I get to retain my Dish service which is all I wanted from the get go. 30 minutes of work to keep a customer for another year or more seems like a decent trade of to me. To bad Dish doesn't have the same opinion.

Kevin.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

I hope Dish pays attention because they are trying to impose these same standards on retailers. If the retailer does not meet the standards they will not get paid. I have gone on jobs where Dish wouldn't do it and told the customer to contact a retailer. Most of the jobs were doable but wouldn't meet Dish's standards. As long as the system works and the mounting does not violate a safety standard then Dish should allow waivers.


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## gtal98 (Jan 30, 2011)

Glad you got it to work!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

kejebe,

last [30 min] task for you  - swap the dishes positions and add a height to 110/119 J-mount.

It will improve signal for 110/119 sats and prevent shadowing each dish.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks for the input, I will keep this in mind if future adjustments need to be made. 

Don't feel like pushing my luck so I think I'm just going to stick with what I have right now. It's currently better than what I had for the last 2 years and I didn't have any problems then  

What do you mean by the shadowing? Currently neither dish is obstructing the view of the dish next to it. 

Before I made the migration Dish installed my 61.5 dish so the arm holding the LNB was actually in front of the 110 & 119 dish.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I mean by that balcony fence and yes, by parts of other dish.


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

Dish should allow it's installers to go though special procedures that would allow them to make decisions that would fail QC standards without repercussions. They would have to justify their decisions and the customer should be required to sign a special statement that outlines the ramifications.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

jsk said:


> Dish should allow it's installers to go though special procedures that would allow them to make decisions that would fail QC standards without repercussions. They would have to justify their decisions and the customer should be required to sign a special statement that outlines the ramifications.


I wouldn't if I owned a company. Why? Because that same person will post on these forums on how bad Dish is, they keep losing their signal, and Dish won't do anything about it. So, no dish should insist on a certain instillation. They actually are doing the right thing by not taking someone's money, getting a two year contract, and leaving them with a suspect instillation.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

tampa8, I can go along with your statement in regards to a new customer that would be under contract but how about a customer such as myself who has no contract and just wanted to continue being able to receive dish services? 

In my opinion Dish should come install the service the best it can possibly be and down the road if customer decides hey this just isn't working for me they leave. At least Dish tried to help the customer and actually attempted to keep them as a customer.

That in and of itself would have eliminated this customer from posting on these forums.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

kejebe, you would be the exception then. And that's exactly why Dish didn't want to install yours the way you needed it done. I'm glad you were able to get it all working fine and I'm sure you'll enjoy it.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

I have to wonder why one of the 'techs' didn't offer to close out the work order as un-doable and do it as a side job for $20. Dish would be off the hook, the customer would have been happier and the tech would have lunch money. Contractors do that kind of thing all the time. I'm not sure I've ever met a contractor who wasn't open to a side job here and there. No threat to the tech since Dish would never have known.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

kejebe said:


> tampa8, I can go along with your statement in regards to a new customer that would be under contract but how about a customer such as myself who has no contract and just wanted to continue being able to receive dish services?


You best bet for that kind of install is a local installer/retailer. I have one that will do any type of non traditional install needed (I've seen two dishes on the same welded mast) in order to serve his customers. None of it covered by DISH Network out of Colorado ... all done at his own (and the customer's) risk.

And that is what it is all about ... risk. You are demanding that DISH take risks with your install and do anything possible to get you a signal. They have made a business decision not to take the kinds of risks that cost them more money than your account is worth.



> That in and of itself would have eliminated this customer from posting on these forums.


I doubt it. I expect that there will be continued complaining about DISH even though you now have a working system. If you don't agree, feel free to prove me wrong. Continue to post about your experience with DISH and their programming without complaint.


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

James Long said:


> They have made a business decision not to take the kinds of risks that cost them more money than your account is worth.


I did the migration myself and it didn't cost me a dime. Not sure how much cheaper it can get than that to keep a customer.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

kejebe said:


> I did the migration myself and it didn't cost me a dime. Not sure how much cheaper it can get than that to keep a customer.


Rhetorical questions:

How long did it take to make the move? How much are you paid per hour? What was the travel time to the work site? How much will it cost to go back if further adjustments are needed? Is your work warranted beyond the individual who did the change? In other words, if this stops working next week or next month - who will be held responsible for correcting the install?

These are all considerations that a independent installer or DISH Network has to look at when they make their business decisions. For you as a self install being paid zero per hour and having no travel helps reduce the costs. Hopefully you will rely on your last installer (you) if/when there are further problems.

Many of us do rely on self installs ... I've never had an installer on my property (the installers I know also work on bigger dishes and I know them from work off of my property). I have taken full responsibility for my work - and if something goes wrong I'll be the first (and last) party responsible for getting it to work again (unless I give up and pay someone).


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## kejebe (Jan 14, 2009)

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point!

Only time will tell if my migration was a success. At that point I guess we will know which path was best for Dish's bottom line.

Mine = Customer Retained (NON QAS setup)
Yours/Dish's = Customer Lost (QAS setup)

Wonder how many other people were in my exact same situation that have already left?


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

I think that liability is probably the biggest issue with non-standard installs. If an insurance company has to pay for damages as a result of the dish being blown around in a storm they are going to sue Dish and the installer.


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

kejebe said:


> I did the migration myself and it didn't cost me a dime. Not sure how much cheaper it can get than that to keep a customer.


Frankly I am surprised that this wasn't your first option. I have always installed my own dishes and have always been satisfied with the results. As you have found out, there is always help here and other sites to give you hints as to how to do the job.

Oh, by the way, congratulations on getting it done finally.........


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