# Dish not grounded, what's the danger?



## grittree (Jul 15, 2016)

I noticed a new installation about a block away where the dish doesn't have a ground wire. Just a single RG6 cable. It's on the opposite side of the house from where the utilities come in.

What is his danger? Is it worth me knocking on the door?


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## west99999 (May 12, 2007)

Unless you know them id say mind your own business.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

If you are worry about human safety, there is none. There are tons of system out there, both DIRECTV and Dish that are not grounded with no adverse effects. 


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Not to mention how do you know there isn't a ground block somewhere in line that goes to a water pipe or steel in a slab or something of that nature.


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## ejbvt (Aug 14, 2011)

When I lived in NC, my apartment complex had a Directv tech who did most of the installations in the complex (and the neighboring ones.) He told me that my Directv dish was one of 4 in the complex that WAS grounded, because I specifically asked him. There were over 30 Directv dishes in the complex that I knew of. My dish was shared by 3 apartments and I just wanted it to be as safe as possible.


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## grittree (Jul 15, 2016)

Well, four replies, and nobody actually answered my question. Which was "What is his danger?"

Yes, I know the owner.

I think a dish needs to be grounded. When I installed two of them, many years ago, I drove a rod into the ground and ran copper to the dish. Yes, it was a tough job. But it was in Florida, with lightning strikes almost daily during the summer.

Here, when I recently got a D* dish, the installer would not put it where I suggested because there was no nearby ground. 

So, I ask again, what is his danger?


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

You don't ground it for lightning. And I think what you did, is possibly worse than nothing. The satellite ground is supposed to be tied to your house ground.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Ground is a fake insure unless you get complete house protection. 


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## grittree (Jul 15, 2016)

trh, interesting.

You are saying that putting the dish up in the back of my house with a driven in ground rod is worse than putting the dish up in the front where the electric utility put their house ground?

Could you elaborate? BTW, I am a PE, but not in EE.

Oh, and if you don't ground it for lightning, why?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)

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## grittree (Jul 15, 2016)

ped48, your link doesn't work.

*Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name*


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

grittree said:


> ped48, your link doesn't work.


Repaired ...


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## keithl (Jul 25, 2011)

trh said:


> You don't ground it for lightning. And I think what you did, is possibly worse than nothing. The satellite ground is supposed to be tied to your house ground.


Huh? My first dish was grounded to an 8 foot grounding rod I put in near the point of entry. My later dish they grounded it indie the house to the copper water pipe.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

keithl said:


> Huh? My first dish was grounded to an 8 foot grounding rod I put in near the point of entry. My later dish they grounded it indie the house to the copper water pipe.


your first example isn't code compliant. Your second install to the metal pipes in your house probably was code compliant because the pipes would have been connected to the house ground.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

grittree said:


> trh, interesting.
> 
> You are saying that putting the dish up in the back of my house with a driven in ground rod is worse than putting the dish up in the front where the electric utility put their house ground?
> 
> ...


First, there isn't any ground that is going to protect you from a direct lightning hit. The antenna grounds will help disipate any static charge, and static charges can cause problems with equipment.

I'm trying to paste a link to a PDF file that while it is very technical, it is still readable. And it has nice drawings. You'll notice that all the antenna grounds are connected back to the house ground.

Maybe the article Peds48 linked to answers some of the questions, but basically, you don't want to have multiple paths to ground. That causes all kinds of unwanted consequences.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.reeve.com/Documents/Articles%2520Papers/AntennaSystemGroundingRequirements_Reeve.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjm_9rFwpLPAhWHth4KHSslDvUQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNH0YJNh3R-k4bZmkOevGx1YzuH14Q&sig2=leqjaFqDSbC9DRclkcyjAA


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

trh said:


> You don't ground it for lightning........


Per the National Electrical Code, systems ARE grounded due to lightning strikes and other problems. To the OP, the code does not necessarily require the dish itself to be grounded, but the dish conductors (cable(s)) that connect to it. The dish antennae has continuity to the CATV cable sheathing once the cable is connected to the LNB.

On newer buildings for a number of years now, NEC 250.94 has required an intersystem bonding termination located either inside or outside at the electrical service equipment to a building. It must contain at least three terminations for phone, CATV, or other communication systems to bond to. This termination is connected to the grounded electrical service and associated grounding electrodes on the premises.

For those that have access to the NEC Handbook, in article 820.100, there is this language:

Proper bonding of the CATV system coaxial cable sheath to the electrical power grounding electrode is needed to prevent potential fire and shock hazards...........

........Both CATV systems and power systems are subject to "current" surges as a result of, for example, induced voltages from lightning in the vicinity of the usually extensive outside distribution systems..........

........If a person is the interface between the two systems and the bonding has not been done in accordance with the Code, the high-voltage surge could result in electric shock. More common, however, is burnout of television tuner, a part that is almost always an interface between the two systems......

If a building was hit with a nearby lighting strike, there could be a tremendous surge traveling on the coax cable on the outside of the building. With no grounding electrode connected to the coax, that entire surge would enter a building through the coaxial cable and have the potential to smoke every electronic plugged into A/C power and possible start a fire. When connected to a grounding electrode, you are trying to take most of the surge to earth ground, rather than in the building which would likely do major property damage.

I have pictures of a house a couple years back that I inspected, where the newly mounted DirecTV mast mounted dish, 10' from the house, took a nearby strike, but not a direct strike. The coax between the antenna and the house was not properly grounded at the house. The H24 receiver in the living room (just into the house) connected to the wall CATV jack spun in the air like a pinwheel several times. Other cable inside the walls blew off the plaster on the walls due to the surge/hit. All in all, about $20,000 in total damage to the house and equipment plugged in.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Realistically, what would happen to a house with a code-compliant grounded dish that takes a direct lightning strike?

I live up the road (about 15 miles) from the University of Florida Lightning Research Center. They shoot a wire with a rocket into clouds to trigger a strike.

Watching one of these is unbelievable.

Site: http://www.lightning.ece.ufl.edu/


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

trh said:


> Realistically, what would happen to a house with a code-compliant grounded dish that takes a direct lightning strike?


Most homes start on fire with a direct lighting hit, so the dish cable grounding is a moot point compared to the other major damage occurring. It's a little difficult to share all the experiences I've seen with properly grounded equipment vs non-grounded equipment.

Been an electrician for over 28 years and an inspector for 15 years....I've seen stuff I never imagined before. Trust me, there's a good reason they put grounding requirements in the code, and although it doesn't eliminate every possible scenario from property damage, provisions are in there to help minimize the risk. Again, the code references lightning in the vicinity and grounding helps to minimize that damage.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

I understand. I've been trying to work with our HOA. They are being really stupid and pushing hard for everyone to install their dishes in back of the house (if LOS is avail) even though with our underground utilities, the house ground is always at one of the front corners where the electricity comes in. So none of these houses that are moving their dishes are being properly grounded.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Another reason why the coax for dishes/antennas is required to be grounded by code is the danger of overhead electric lines being broken by trees/wind/ice and making contact with a dish or antenna. This isn't much of a concern in newer neighborhoods where the electric is run underground, but areas more than a few decades old often have electric lines on poles running down streets/alleys, with overhead lines connecting to houses.

The odds of something bad happening with an ungrounded dish are very small, and some bad things can still happen despite the dish being grounded, but it does reduce the odds. IMHO it is something every Directv customer should insist on, since their installers are trained to and are supposed to properly ground every install.

If you have to spend a lot of money to properly ground (i.e. if you need to drive a second grounding rod and tie it to your main grounding rod due to a certain location being required for your dish that's far away from your service entrance) it may not be worth it - I don't think anyone is saying "money is no object". But aside from that, it does no harm so why wouldn't you want it? A lot of stuff in the NEC / NFPA codes and government product safety regulations protect against very unlikely events, but cumulatively protecting against these "unlikely events" will add up to a number of lives saved every year.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

trh said:


> I understand. I've been trying to work with our HOA. They are being really stupid and pushing hard for everyone to install their dishes in back of the house (if LOS is avail) even though with our underground utilities, the house ground is always at one of the front corners where the electricity comes in. So none of these houses that are moving their dishes are being properly grounded.


Maybe they need to inquire with their lawyers and insurance carrier about their liability should anything happen to one of these houses that could be traced to their pushing for dishes to be moved and no longer being properly grounded. It may be a very unlikely possibility, but lawyers will generally advise their clients against doing something that may lead to multi million dollar liability even if it is only a million to one chance.


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## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

grittree said:


> I noticed a new installation about a block away where the dish doesn't have a ground wire. Just a single RG6 cable. It's on the opposite side of the house from where the utilities come in.
> 
> What is his danger? Is it worth me knocking on the door?





trh said:


> First, there isn't any ground that is going to protect you from a direct lightning hit. The antenna grounds will help disipate any static charge, and static charges can cause problems with equipment.
> 
> I'm trying to paste a link to a PDF file that while it is very technical, it is still readable. And it has nice drawings. You'll notice that all the antenna grounds are connected back to the house ground.
> 
> ...


If I understand this correctly, there need not be a separate ground wire coming from the dish. The shield of the RG6 cable doubles as the ground if the RG6 is connected to a grounding block and the grounding block is connected to the house ground.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

Correct.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

grittree said:


> I noticed a new installation about a block away where the dish doesn't have a ground wire. Just a single RG6 cable. It's on the opposite side of the house from where the utilities come in.
> 
> What is his danger? Is it worth me knocking on the door?


The most immediate danger is that if a lightning strike is fairly close it can knock out the LNB, the receiver, and the TV it is connected to it from the power surging down the coax and then thru the HDMI cable. I had that happen a few years ago.

I thought my system was grounded. It was connected to the same place my AC was. As it turns out it was grounded but only if the AC was running.

Before that it was connected to a spigot. The problem with that was the pipes were all PVC.

Finally it is connected to the spot where my electric power comes into the house.

If you are not friends with the neighbor I would mind my own business.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

I had a break in the cable from dish to the ground block. DirecTV technician just cut the cable up a little past the break, about 6 ft, reachable height, and put a new connector up there and ran a new cable down. He made appropriate loops for this new jumper, but I noticed the original rg6 ground wire was never connected to the new cable he ran. So my dish is not grounded, but I do have a ground block in my grey plastic cable enclosure at the side of the house with a green ground wire going from it, to a corner clamp attached to the electric meter. Utilities are all underground.

The CATV also is in that grey enclosure and they have an RG-11 wire into a ground block which is grounded, and an RG-6 wire on the other side going into the house.

There are a lot of other things lightning could strike, like all the trees around me that are taller than the house for one. I'm not sure if the one in a billion chance of a direct hit (no one ever had one that I've known in our neighborhood) would do anything if it hit the dish, but fry the LNB and short out to the shield, which I believe is grounded itself from being attached to the all metal ground block.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

cypherx said:


> I had a break in the cable from dish to the ground block. DirecTV technician just cut the cable up a little past the break, about 6 ft, reachable height, and put a new connector up there and ran a new cable down. He made appropriate loops for this new jumper, but I noticed the original rg6 ground wire was never connected to the new cable he ran. So my dish is not grounded, but I do have a ground block in my grey plastic cable enclosure at the side of the house with a green ground wire going from it, to a corner clamp attached to the electric meter. Utilities are all underground.
> 
> The CATV also is in that grey enclosure and they have an RG-11 wire into a ground block which is grounded, and an RG-6 wire on the other side going into the house.
> 
> There are a lot of other things lightning could strike, like all the trees around me that are taller than the house for one. I'm not sure if the one in a billion chance of a direct hit (no one ever had one that I've known in our neighborhood) would do anything if it hit the dish, but fry the LNB and short out to the shield, which I believe is grounded itself from being attached to the all metal ground block.


A direct hit is going to fry everything electrical and probably / most likely to start a fire.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

cypherx said:


> There are a lot of other things lightning could strike, like all the trees around me that are taller than the house for one. I'm not sure if the one in a billion chance of a direct hit (no one ever had one that I've known in our neighborhood) would do anything if it hit the dish, but fry the LNB and short out to the shield, which I believe is grounded itself from being attached to the all metal ground block.


Lightning can strike more than one point in the same strike. Strikes can branch out and hit multiple points on the ground. Sometimes the best path between sky and ground isn't the tip of the tallest tree straight through the tree roots to the ground. (This is why people are warned not to stand under trees during lightning storms ... the strike can leave the tree and hit the person.)


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

So is this bad or not...









The ground wire may be touching the shielding, then it has a path to the ground block inside the box, but it doesn't look like it close up.


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## ericknolls (Aug 18, 2013)

It has something to do with your equipment frying from a power surge or lightning strike. It could happen anyway. But grounding could help prevent it in the event it does happen. If lightning hits your dish it could travel to your equipment. If I understood what was in a post in 2008 on Tapatalk.

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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

cypherx said:


> So is this bad or not...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not sure what I am looking at here, but you should start by removing those corners clamps.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

cypherx said:


> There are a lot of other things lightning could strike, like all the trees around me that are taller than the house for one. I'm not sure if the one in a billion chance of a direct hit (no one ever had one that I've known in our neighborhood) would do anything if it hit the dish, but fry the LNB and short out to the shield, which I believe is grounded itself from being attached to the all metal ground block.


A direct hit to the dish, and you probably wouldn't be able to even locate any sign of the dish, and you'd likely have a good sized hole in your roof where it used to be (if your house didn't burn down) Fortunately truly direct hits are rare, as James Long said typically lightning will strike multiple points in the area.

I saw the effect of a direct strike a few years ago, when lighting hit a big tree on a golf course here. It literally exploded (water being instantly converted into steam) and shot chunks from bullet sized to pringles can sized in about a 100 meter circle all around the tree. Only about a five foot stump was left of a 75 ft tall tree. A metal sign under the tree was completely vaporized, they couldn't find any sign of it aside from the concrete footing. Fortunately this happened in the early spring, a week before the course was due to open, so there was no one present to be injured. This tree was between a green and the next tee, and anyone standing on either would have been killed by the shrapnel the strike sent flying, assuming they didn't get enough electricity from a side bolt to stop their heart first. They keep a picture in the clubhouse now as a warning to people to heed the siren they blow when there is lightning in the area.


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## AZ. (Mar 27, 2011)

I see we have many weekend electricians!.....A transient lightning strike is why its grounded...No a direct hit will help very little, maybe save a few items in your home?

The NEC, and the NFPA could give you proper grounding procedures.....

If you know grounding, its number one purpose is Life Safety!

If you dont know electricity, dont play with it, if you think you electricity dont play with it.....I would love to hear what happens when the insurance company comes out and tells you your not covered!

Grounding is not simple, and is a MUST!......again, life safety!


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## Whiskey River (Apr 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> Lightning can strike more than one point in the same strike. Strikes can branch out and hit multiple points on the ground. Sometimes the best path between sky and ground isn't the tip of the tallest tree straight through the tree roots to the ground. (This is why people are warned not to stand under trees during lightning storms ... the strike can leave the tree and hit the person.)


We had two lightning strikes on the same street four blocks away from my house, which is lower altitude, strangely the strikes were 19 years apart and 9 houses apart and both times it went straight into the gas line, right next to the trees in the front of the houses. The first one burned the tree and Xcel Energy dug up the whole front yard fixing that one. And the second one they blasted three hoses at it just to keep it from burning the house down.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

AZ. said:


> I see we have many weekend electricians!.....A transient lightning strike is why its grounded...No a direct hit will help very little, maybe save a few items in your home?
> 
> The NEC, and the NFPA could give you proper grounding procedures.....
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not a weekend electrician....kind of been doing it for about 28 years now....but I thought I my references to the NEC in post #16 gave some answers to the OP and others.


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## Getteau (Dec 20, 2007)

I'll let the electricians battle out the safety part. 

From a usability standpoint, there have been some issues in the past where caller-didn't work reliably when the systems weren't grounded. Granted, some models never seemed to work reliably anyway and they have also dropped it from the latest receivers. However, many years ago in the caller ID threads, that was one of the first things people recommended checking.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Getteau said:


> I'll let the electricians battle out the safety part.
> 
> From a usability standpoint, there have been some issues in the past where caller-didn't work reliably when the systems weren't grounded. Granted, some models never seemed to work reliably anyway and they have also dropped it from the latest receivers. However, many years ago in the caller ID threads, that was one of the first things people recommended checking.


Caller ID works perfect on my HR24-200. It worked perfect on my HR44-500. HR44-500 hard drive was going bad and DirecTV replaced it with an HR44-700. Only this new -700 model does it show unavailable randomly during the call. None of the grounding or dish wiring has changed. The only change is the HR44 receiver from a Humax built device to a Pace built device. I'm putting my money on some low quality components Pace used in the modem portion of their build.


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## AZ. (Mar 27, 2011)

codespy said:


> Well, I'm not a weekend electrician....kind of been doing it for about 28 years now....but I thought I my references to the NEC in post #16 gave some answers to the OP and others.


Yes you were spot on....For some reason they think the ground is only for lightning strikes?
Not one person can understand that everything can be working fine....But without grounding(proper)....Some one can grab the dish, a coax any part of the system.....and get a poke.....I will assume most understand that there is voltage going through that coax?.....and yes, It can kill them......
It has been documented that people have been killed by as little as 24voltes....all it has to do is take the right path (through your heart).....

And if hit by lightning.....lets hope that a properly grounded dish will take the better part of the hit.....

If grounds wernt important, we wouldn't need them, and Im very sure you understand that?

I have 37+ years in the biz, working, inspecting, and running hundreds of men on high rises....

When I inspect.....You dam well better have proper grounding through te whole project!.....Its Life Safety! (look at how large sec. 250 is)

http://www.necconnect.org/resources/2014nec_changes_article250/


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