# $39.99 External HD Activation Fee - Just say 'no'.



## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

I have been a customer of Dish for about 10 years. I now have a Vip622 receiver, for which Dish now wants $39.99 to 'activate' an external hard drive.

Imagine the outrage if Microsoft charged an 'activation fee' when you wanted to hook up an external hard drive for Windows on hardware that you already own.

I hope we can all send a message to Dish by not activating external HD. The fee is purely a money grab.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

brettbolt said:


> I have been a customer of Dish for about 10 years. I now have a Vip622 receiver, for which Dish now wants $39.99 to 'activate' an external hard drive.
> 
> Imagine the outrage if Microsoft charged an 'activation fee' when you wanted to hook up an external hard drive for Windows on hardware that you already own.


Not a good analogy, since most of us are not running computers made for or sold by Microsoft. I bought my computer elsewhere, then bought Windows to run on it. Microsoft can and does charge to enable some new features (for instance paid support for the operating system itself beyond 1 year)... but they can't charge you to enable a hard drive on your computer because they don't control the hardware.

Apple, on the other hand... tends to control the hardware and the software.. and look at what they have done with the iPhone and iPods, making batteries built-in to them such that they cannot be replaced. You have to take it back to Apple when your battery inevitably expires in the future and deal with them instead of being able to go to your local "Batteries store".



brettbolt said:


> I hope we can all send a message to Dish by not activating external HD. The fee is purely a money grab.


Sure it is.. but that's business. Dish didn't have to enable the hard drive as a feature at all... and they could have chosen to make it proprietary and force you to buy a hard drive from them at a premium... instead, they chose an activation fee and then you can buy as many drives as you want to connect (one at a time of course).

I think the fee is a little high myself, and I haven't jumped on it... but I can understand why they chose to have a fee. I just wish it was more affordable.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Let's not forget that Apple recently charged $5.00 to activate the Wireless "N" hardware on new Intel Macs.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

HDMe said:


> Not a good analogy, since most of us are not running computers made for or sold by Microsoft. I bought my computer elsewhere, then bought Windows to run on it. Microsoft can and does charge to enable some new features (for instance paid support for the operating system itself beyond 1 year)... but they can't charge you to enable a hard drive on your computer because they don't control the hardware.
> 
> Apple, on the other hand... tends to control the hardware and the software.. and look at what they have done with the iPhone and iPods, making batteries built-in to them such that they cannot be replaced. You have to take it back to Apple when your battery inevitably expires in the future and deal with them instead of being able to go to your local "Batteries store".
> 
> ...


I think charlie will banish the fee if you buy a DISH BRANDED hard drive. Why because Charlie promised Dish retailers that this will be a form of income for them and the way dish rolled out the program the retailers get 00 dish gets it all. By selling a DISH branded hard drive Dish will be able to include the retailers.


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## TiVoPrince (May 10, 2007)

*$39.95*
for 'all you can ever eat' seems to be a reasonable number. Once the lanch issues disappear I will probably sign up in time for the new fall season...


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Totally unreasonable nickel and diming by Dish. With Directv, there's no extra charge. Dish has a habit of feeing everyone to death. Let's not forget the per DVR fee (per household with Directv), the $20 HD fee ($10 with Directv), the HD "enabling fee" (no such charge with Directv), the extra $1 per HD box, etc.

This time, Dish has gone over the top.


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## Borgie (Dec 30, 2006)

jal said:


> Totally unreasonable nickel and diming by Dish. With Directv, there's no extra charge. Dish has a habit of feeing everyone to death. Let's not forget the per DVR fee (per household with Directv), the $20 HD fee ($10 with Directv), the HD "enabling fee" (no such charge with Directv), the extra $1 per HD box, etc.
> 
> This time, Dish has gone over the top.


Sounds like you should switch to directv


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

After the Hd "Enabling Fee" and the increase to $20 for HD, and left Dish after 8 years, and have been very happy ever since!


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## Borgie (Dec 30, 2006)

jal said:


> After the Hd "Enabling Fee" and the increase to $20 for HD, and left Dish after 8 years, and have been very happy ever since!


I was just looking at directv website. How many HD channels do you get for that 10.00?


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

I learned today from a reliable source at E* that the plan is to allow an external drive to work with all the 622s on the customer's account. No time frame as to when this will be available. This would mean only one fee per account, I assume. It also means you could save programming to the drive so you don't lose it if the DVR has to be replaced. The drive would simply be authorized on the new DVR without reformatting. 

Sounds good to me but I'm not holding my breath until this upgrade becomes reality.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Dish could have made the external drive work only with a drive bought through Dish. Then you would have paid a premium for that drive. In this case, they allowed us to buy whatever drive we wanted for a one time $40 fee. For me it was a deal. I bought a 500 GB drive for $100 and with a simple phone call it was activated. I can add another drive anytime I want if this one fills up. The A/C compressor started leaking on my car 2 weeks ago. It was an $800 repair bill. The $40 activation fee that same week was in the noise compared to that. I don't think anyone has a problem if someone doesn't want to pay the fee. Just don't think there will be a lot of support from those of us who have been anxiously waiting for this USB port to be activated. 

We said YES!

..Doyle


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## sgip2000 (Jun 5, 2007)

I don't think charging a fee is unreasonable; however, I feel that the $39.99 fee is unreasonable. $19.99 would have been much more affordable for many people.


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## cheapa55 (Aug 17, 2007)

jal said:


> Totally unreasonable nickel and diming by Dish. With Directv, there's no extra charge. Dish has a habit of feeing everyone to death. Let's not forget the per DVR fee (per household with Directv), the $20 HD fee ($10 with Directv), the HD "enabling fee" (no such charge with Directv), the extra $1 per HD box, etc.
> 
> This time, Dish has gone over the top.


but how much do you have to pay for an HD DVR??? $200 up front and it's not even "yours". 
Dish lets you use it for free (besides the dvr fee). For us to recoup the $200, it will take years.

FYI, I'm with comcast and not sure which to switch to D* or E*

edit: oh yes, I don't like that price to activate the HDD, but that's business, at least its not something extreme. Now apple's $5 to enable "n" , that's just plain ridiculous.


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## rocky01 (Mar 20, 2005)

Yeah, I'm a longtime customer and usually approve of Dish's right to make money, but this sticks in my craw. It's good feature but good grief, need I say it, forty bucks a pop to enable a jack! Why ask your loyal customers to bend over? For the privilege of saving programs if and when the HDMI connector goes out yet again and has to be RMA'ed?! Aw, what a pity, the customers are yammering for their DVR'ed events to be saved, too bad, you're gonna pay for it, you whining vermin?! What a way to run an airline! Look, they're enabling USB -- a feature that could have been implemented when the 622 was initially made available. Instead of arguing with reasonable customer requests to be able to save their programs, E* takes the low road, goes out of its way to make it seem criminal to get stuff off the DVR, as if paying customers are thieves and hackers after copyrighted material. I've been a little insulted with their long handle spoon handling of power users with some brand loyalty. Where's the value added approach we deserve for waiting for them to respond to customers? It shouldn't cost anything. 

Incredible that some are O.K. with it. Just my opinion of course, I respect yours.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Borgie said:


> I was just looking at directv website. How many HD channels do you get for that 10.00?


Right now, a few less than Dish, not including the Voom channels. However, in a few days, Directv's new satellite will begin broadcasting, and all kinds of new channels, such as CNN, etc., will be available for no extra charge. So, within that time frame, Directv will clearly have many more channels in HD than Dish, and for half the price.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I can see this one going down in a blaze guys. First off lets keep on topic. Topic is the Activation Fee, not how many channels D* has versus E* etcs. Also keep your discussion focused on the facts and away from the other members. Everyone has their right to their opinions... as rocky said.. respect them even if you might disagree with them.

And Rocky.. the 39.95 is per account not per receiver.


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## ssmith10pn (Jul 6, 2005)

What happened to the the origional plan that they were going to turn on USB on the 211 also?


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Every feature requires some amount of development time and validation. In this case, checkout with various USB drive manufacturers. It appears that Seagate/Maxtor was involved based on the Tech Chat. We have all seen problems with bug fixes and the software releases and all of these require engineering time. Dish makes their money selling content. When they add features that do not increase content sales it would be reasonable to expect them to charge for those features. If on the other hand they are playing catchup with the competition, then one would not expect that they would be able to charge as much for features the competition already has. In this case they seem to be leading. Maybe in October after the Tivo case rulings they will be following. 

..Doyle


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## grog (Jul 3, 2007)

I have no problem with the $39.99 External HD Activation Fee.

This is just one case where I do not want to be "an early adopter".

I will wait a while. 

I am in no rush.

I am sure I will add the feature before the end of the year. But for right now.. waiting is fine for me.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

I was not informed of the $39.99 fee when I purchased the Vip622. All software upgrades up to this point have been free, and I had assumed (incorrectly) that there would be no charge to use the USB port.

Use of the USB port was a promised feature and no mention was ever made of a charge for it -- until now.

Now its a slap in the face from Dish. How long have we had to put up with malfunctioning trick play and other bugs? Yes, I appreciate them fixing trick play in this latest release. But I would think that not charging for USB HD usage would be a nice compensation for putting up with the bugs for so long.

So if you and everyone else pay the $39.99 fee, then this will only encourage Dish to cook up new 'fees' in the future.

Again, I encourage everyone to not pay the fee. Otherwise there will be more!


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## nataraj (Feb 25, 2006)

I think it is because of anticipated support calls. 

I'd be happy to get this feature "without support", if they don't charge me.


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## pvcleave (Mar 20, 2007)

I have been a Dish customer for a long time. I am sick of the nickle and diming, as soon as my latest obligation is up I am of to FIOS. I noticed Dish has not done so well in the customer satisfaction surveys.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

If you have a DVD recorder or any other recording device you have to pay for what you are burning it to. Well you now have a device to burn to so I paid to burn. If you want your HDD to fill up and have to delete shows before you can watch them then don't pay the fee. If you want to be able to keep a manageable HDD then pay to play. BTW my Maxtor is working fine now. 1st couple of days things popped up that was really strange.


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## mwsmith2 (Nov 15, 2004)

Sounds like cutting off one's nose to spite their face to me.

Being able to go from one hard drive to an infinite number of drives on any receiver on my account....heck, $39 would be a bargain at twice the price.

But yes, teach dish a lesson by not activating.


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## dave1234 (Oct 9, 2005)

FWIW the USB port is enabled on all 622's and there is NO activation fee to use it. However to use it with a HDD there is a fee. Using it with a flash drive to load pictures is free.


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## rtk (Apr 15, 2007)

While the price is a little high, I don't think charging customers for adding almost infinite drive space is unfair. There is no one being forced to pay, its simply a matter of choice. I much prefer the one time fee and the option of adding the hard drive of my choice rather than having to purchase the drive from Dish as some had speculated. There are things that Dish does that I don't agree with but this isn't one of them.


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## mwsmith2 (Nov 15, 2004)

rtk said:


> I much prefer the one time fee and the option of adding the hard drive of my choice rather than having to purchase the drive from Dish as some had speculated.


I agree 100%. There are so many ways that dish could have charged, it's frightening:

1. Charge to transfer
2. Charge to restore
3. A charge for each HD used with the system
4. A charge for each DVR
5. A charge to transfer between DVR
6. Extra charge for HD archiving

Lucky for us, none of those scenarios played out. I think we got off light with a $39 one time charge for the entire account. They could have charged more, and yea, I would have grumbled more, but I would have ultimately done it.

This opens up a whole new world of recording for me. Previously I stayed away from recording a whole bunch of HD content because it ate the drive up so quickly. Now when I have a choice, I grab the HD content FIRST. When I start running low on room, I just move a few over. I'm watching even more HD then before.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

jal said:


> Totally unreasonable nickel and diming by Dish. With Directv, there's no extra charge. Dish has a habit of feeing everyone to death. Let's not forget the per DVR fee (per household with Directv), the $20 HD fee ($10 with Directv), the HD "enabling fee" (no such charge with Directv), the extra $1 per HD box, etc.
> 
> This time, Dish has gone over the top.


Doesn't attaching an external hard drive to the DirecTV receiver disable the receiver's hard drive? If that's the case, how much does it cost to replace that hard drive space from the receiver and now you can't transfer programming from the receiver's hard drive to an external one. Seems to greatly limit program storage flexibility.


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## hmcewin (Jun 30, 2006)

sgip2000 said:


> I don't think charging a fee is unreasonable; however, I feel that the $39.99 fee is unreasonable. $19.99 would have been much more affordable for many people.


Are you seriously saying $40 is such a burden?? If so these subscribers probably should not be using any type of cable, sat, etc.

A $20 fee would be much nicer but enough to make a difference to those who want the service--I doubt it. Certainly not for me.

$40 is a reasonable fee for having unlimited archive space that works. I think it is a great enhancement by Dish and BTW is optional.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

hmcewin said:


> Are you seriously saying $40 is such a burden?? If so these subscribers probably should not be using any type of cable, sat, etc. ..


I am the original poster of this thread. My whole point is that by paying the activation fee, you are encouraging Dish to charge new fees for features in the future. Hmm, how about an 'Ethernet Activation Fee'?

It's not an issue of whether one can afford it or not, its the principle of the thing. I'm tired of being nickled and dimed to death and it has to stop. If everyone pays the HD activation fee, it will only get worse in the future.


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## Moridin (Mar 22, 2005)

Let's see. After paying a $40 enabling fee, I have at least a dozen HD movies archived, which I can easily watch at any time, without having to fiddle with a shiny plastic disc, and I still have tons of space left on my 750GB drive. _If_ those movies were even available on BluRay/HD-DVD, I'd pay around $35 a piece for each of them, which would set me back $420, excluding the minimum price of about $300 for a high-def DVD player. I'm gobsmacked by those claiming that Dish is "ripping them off" by charging $40 dollars for this feature.


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## Hunter Green (May 8, 2006)

brettbolt said:


> Imagine the outrage if Microsoft charged an 'activation fee' when you wanted to hook up an external hard drive for Windows on hardware that you already own.


I remember when they added that feature. It was in Windows 98. Cost a lot more than $40, but then it included a few other features. I don't remember any outrage, though.


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## cornflakes (Sep 30, 2005)

In a way I feel like I just paid $40 to buy a blu-ray recorder. Now I'm able to store virtually unlimited HD shows without these shows taking up precious space on my 622. I'm able to record and store HD movies, and watch them whenever I want just like I would with a HD disc. Yes $40 is a little more, $20 would've been better, free would've been even nicer. But Dish is in business to make money, just like everyone else. If you want a new feature, pay for it. Like on my Mac, I wanted the new features in the new iLife suite of apps, so I paid for the upgrade.

Btw I don't feel it's a simple "$40 just to enable the jack" fee. There's a lot of software that goes on to make this work. The USB port has always worked. The software just didn't know what to do with it until now.

As for the argument that all the updates so far have been free, and so should this one... Apple and Microsoft have been updating my OSes for free too, but that doesn't mean they can't charge for upgrades. Leopard and Vista are upgrades that cost money. If you don't want the new features of the new software, you don't have to pay for it. Would people be more inclined to pay the fee if Dish called this software version 5.0 and changed the colors of the menus?


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Last night I setup the 622 to record the 11 hour LOTR trilogy that will run over the weekend. Sure it has commercials but I have a DVR so not a problem. I wouldn't have even considered this without the external option but now my main internal recorder is sitting there with 25 hours of HD open and the external 500 has over 400 GB free. In this case, that $40 has bought me a lot of convenience and flexibility. As to whether Dish will look for other features to charge for. I think they will do the same as Direct and Comcast and charge what the market will bear. If the phone companies get their act together and we start seeing more content delivered over the internet and phone service networks, then there might be some pricing competition. 5 years from now, DVDs could easily be obsolete as content gets delivered on demand. Markets change. All of the mom and pop DVD stores got put out of business in the metro areas when Blockbuster rolled in. Then Netflix showed up and the game changed again. I am just glad I am in a country where all of this innovation is going on and I have the opportunity to take advantage of the services I want. (I can't wait to get my hands on one of those new 24" iMacs) 

..Doyle


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## mwsmith2 (Nov 15, 2004)

brettbolt said:


> My whole point is that by paying the activation fee, you are encouraging Dish to charge new fees for features in the future.


The fact that *anyone* has activated the feature pretty much makes this moot now, doesn't it? :grin:

BTW, ethernet activation fee? It's active now, as of this latest release, and there was no fee.


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## emoney28 (Mar 1, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> I can see this one going down in a blaze guys. First off lets keep on topic. Topic is the Activation Fee, not how many channels D* has versus E* etcs. Also keep your discussion focused on the facts and away from the other members. Everyone has their right to their opinions... as rocky said.. respect them even if you might disagree with them.
> 
> And Rocky.. the 39.95 is per account not per receiver.


Good point Ron.

The fact is that if you want USB capability, then pay the $40. If you don't want it, then don't pay.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

It seems that my dissatisfaction about the HD enabling fee has been completely shot down here. 

I know when I'm outnumbered, so I will quietly go away now.


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

If you've been around computers and software for any length of time you know there is no such thing as a free lunch. We get hit with upgrade fees all the time that appear to be nothing more than bug fixes.

I wanted the ability to move some shows and movies off my DVR and on to an external hard drive to free up more space for new recordings - so I paid the USB external hard drive enabling fee the first morning it was available. Compared to what they could have done with proprietary drives with big price tags, $40 was a minor bump in the road.


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

brettbolt said:


> It seems that my dissatisfaction about the HD enabling fee has been completely shot down here.
> 
> I know when I'm outnumbered, so I will quietly go away now.


I wouldn't look at it as being outnumbered. Just different people have different priorities. Yes, we would all have liked this to be free, and I was one of the first ones on the "Wait a minute, the jack's already there, what am I paying for?" bandwagon but I've kinda come around to the side of "this is a major software upgrade" bandwagon. And I do pay for software upgrades on my computer and charge my clients when they want me to make changes to software I have written for them. I still hate thinking about paying $39.99, had originally figured that if it were more than $20 then no way would I get it. But now that so many of the things we record are HD, with the new HD Channels coming on, we may bite the bullet and ante up for this (if we can't keep up with what we're recording). We haven't yet, as we're not one of the brave early adopters! Whenever something new comes up that isn't free, for us it basically comes down to:

1. Is this feature something we really want?
2. Is this feature worth what's being charged to us?
3. Is it within our personal budget?

So don't feel bad, you're really not alone in wishing that companies wouldn't charge us for everything, it's just that this feature is a worthwhile enough priority to some that you won't be able to talk everybody into just saying no to it.


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

brettbolt said:


> It seems that my dissatisfaction about the HD enabling fee has been completely shot down here.
> I know when I'm outnumbered, so I will quietly go away now.


I'm with you on this issue. I did pay the $40 fee but would have been much happier and I think this would not have been an issue if they had made it a $20 fee instead.
$40 is excessive. $20 would be OK. $0 would be great. 
Just glad I bought a Maxtor, no problems.:grin:


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## motts (Apr 11, 2006)

dave1234 said:


> FWIW the USB port is enabled on all 622's and there is NO activation fee to use it. However to use it with a HDD there is a fee. Using it with a flash drive to load pictures is free.


We should all wait a few years until capacity on USB drives skyrockets!


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## DishTSR3Mentor (Nov 3, 2006)

Some people just want to complain.

E* made a feature available that no other provider that I'm aware of has.....
Go get your own equipment and let's party.....

That's the attitude they have at Dish... They think it's awesome they have a feature no one else wants to even step out to support.

About the fee, directly, I have say that there HAS to be some kind of insurance made to the company that they'll have honest customers following the copyright laws.... a dedicated group of customers insures this by paying $39.99 and that's a small fee for *UNLIMITED DVR CAPACITY*.... sheesh how many tivos would you need to buy to get that availability? You can't just toss a WD MYBOOK on your tivo and upgrade your capacity. Give me a break people.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

[/QUOTE]You may feel foolish for paying the $39.95 fee when the Broadcasters force Dish to stop this service because it goes against copyright rules. Think about it, the major studios wants to sell the new HD DVDs and Blue Ray Dvd. If you are able to record movies on a hard drive and use it as a storage medium then why buy an HD or Blue Ray HD DVD, let alone the software for them. It is much cheaper to buy a 300mg hard drive and record the HD movies from Showtime, Stars, etc. The cost of Blue Ray HD DVD is from $25.00 to $50.00 and the major studios do not want to loss this income. That is why I believe this new feature from Dish will become mute.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

HD you're recording from dish is not near as good as the sound and picture quality of HD-DVD and BD. My son was comparing "The prestige" on Starz and BR, during the lightning generator scene the VBR of BD went up to 40Mbs. It was pixelating city on starz. HD-DVD and BR need not worry.


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## mwsmith2 (Nov 15, 2004)

tomcrown1 said:


> You may feel foolish for paying the $39.95 fee when the Broadcasters force Dish to stop this service because it goes against copyright rules.


Doesn't apply since it's for personal use. Google up the fair use act, it pertains exactly to what you are talking about. Now if you decode and burn new DVDs for sale on the street corner, you're going to have a problem. Dish won't, because they have taken measures to prevent that. If they hadn't, they _might_ have had a problem.



tomcrown1 said:


> That is why I believe this new feature from Dish will become mute.


FYI (since I _just_ used that word a few posts up):

*mute */myut/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoot] adjective, mut·er, mut·est, noun, verb, mut·ed, mut·ing.
-adjective silent;

1. refraining from speech or utterance.
*
moot * /mut/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[moot] -adjective

1.	open to discussion or debate; debatable; doubtful: a moot point.
2.	of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.

Click the link below before you flame me! :grin:

http://www.flashasylum.com/db/files/Comics/Rob/sheriff.png


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

A reminder of our forum rules:
(m) Discussion about hacking into the content of Personal Video Recorders (PVR's) including digital transfer of undecoded programming from the PVR's hard drive to another medium is prohibited.​


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## rocky01 (Mar 20, 2005)

*


James Long said:



A reminder of our forum rules:
(m) Discussion about hacking into the content of Personal Video Recorders (PVR's) including digital transfer of undecoded programming from the PVR's hard drive to another medium is prohibited.​

Click to expand...

*I must have missed where someone discussed that in this thread.



mwsmith2 said:


> Click the link below before you flame me! :grin:
> 
> http://www.flashasylum.com/db/files/Comics/Rob/sheriff.png


*[Page Blocked by FortiClient™
You have tried to access a web page which is in violation of your internet usage policy.

URL: www.flashasylum.com/db/files/Comics/Rob/sheriff.png 
Category: Controversial:Adult Materials 
To have the rating of this web page re-evaluated please submit the site on:

http://url.fortinet.net/rate/submit.php

All submitted sites would be reviewed and ratings corrected within a day or two.]*

Sounds like a uh, lively party


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## KalebD (May 8, 2007)

Hooked mine up the other night. Works fine. Takes a while to transfer files, but with the flexibility of being able to have multiple drives to store movies recorded from Starz and HBO to create a large HD video library is sweet! and for $39.95, that is actually pretty inexpensive.

Just get it and enjoy...or don't get it.:hurah:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocky01 said:


> I must have missed where someone discussed that in this thread.


Such posts have been removed. 


> Category: Controversial:Adult Materials


Probably something else on that site. The cartoon linked was family friendly.

Two sheriffs talking:
#1: Sorry, stranger, but I'm the only sheriff in this here town.
#2: I know, I'm just the grammar sheriff.
#1: That don't seem like no kind of sheriff to me.
(Then the grammar sheriff shoots the other sheriff.)


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## rocky01 (Mar 20, 2005)

:lol: I like it.


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## clapple (Feb 11, 2003)

Different strokes for different folks; but I have never come close to the space limit on a 622. There are very few TV shows, that I want to save, once I have watched them.

So I can not care less, about an external HD.


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## ls7dude (Jan 31, 2007)

Since I've gotten HD and a 622 we struggle to keep enough space left on the HD to record our favorite shows. I also love all of the concerts available with Dish so that takes up a lot of space. 

I was seriously considering DVD recorders in the $100 range and on top of that I'd have to pay for discs (not terribly expensive) and I'd have to get up every time I wanted to put a concert in and watch it for a little while.

Now, I paid $39.99 for a one time fee that I consider going to R&D for me to be able to have this feature. I can now store as much as I'd like and it is extremely convenient. 

We could be faced with not having this option at all... and to me, I'm happy to pay for it.

It would be really cool for all of the complaining to stop about it and turn around and thank Dish for the option.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

James Long said:


> Such posts have been removed. Probably something else on that site. The cartoon linked was family friendly.
> 
> Two sheriffs talking:
> #1: Sorry, stranger, but I'm the only sheriff in this here town.
> ...


James what about the work around that was mentioned on Tech Chat??

I was shocked that this hack was given up and could lead to Dish having to limit the content(by hollywood) we can record; since Dish told us how to get it on to DVD.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tomcrown1 said:


> James what about the work around that was mentioned on Tech Chat??
> 
> I was shocked that this hack was given up and could lead to Dish having to limit the content(by hollywood) we can record; since Dish told us how to get it on to DVD.


E* didn't say any more that we have been saying for years ... play your content and let a DVD burner (or VCR or other recorder) capture the A/V outputs of your receiver. Be aware that some content is transmitted with macrovision to make it harder to record.

E* does not support or encourage in any way sharing digital content with a machine on another account or to a PC.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

http://www.techliberation.com/archives/027168.php

[/QUOTE]TiVo appears to be acting unilaterally, disregarding established rights of content owners to participate in decisions regarding the distribution and exploitation of their content," an NBC Universal spokesman said. "This unilateral action creates the risk of legal conflict instead of contributing to the constructive exploitation of digital technology that can rapidly provide new and exciting experiences for the consumer.[/QUOTE]

This is a suite that Hollywood had against TIVO in regards to tivo allowing recording of its content onto Apples IPod.

Dish will face a the same thus the external HD will become silence or mute.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tomcrown1 said:


> Dish will face a the same thus the external HD will become silence or mute.


Doubtful as (unlike Tivo) E* is doing all they can to protect the rights of the content owners while offering the extra storage.

E* is offering moving of content ... not unlimited copying.
E* is not offering networking of their receivers where copying can be made.
E* is offering new forms of content such as VOD and eventually DISH Online where the content will be fully controlled (with viewing time limited - the current form of VOD is limited to 24 hrs per payment) with no archiving.
E* is not offering hackers a free pass as Tivo has done to take content.

In a way this protection has held E* back ... but at the end of the day respecting the content providers wishes will mean they get to keep the feature.


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## dld542004 (Jun 18, 2006)

I said yes! Nice to have more HD storage space.


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## dee99ta (Apr 19, 2007)

I have been reading up on this forum for some time regarding dish because I *Might* be interested in getting it. However, I am nauseated by the little charge here, little charge there. I am floored that they would charge to connect a drive!!!!!!!:nono2: 

Not only that, but it takes over the drive and doesn't allow you to move it to another receiver. It seems a lot of folks are happy to keep paying, but I will pass.....


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

FWIW, you can move the drive to another receiver 3 times. The 4th move it offers to format the drive. A future update should allow moving the drive between receivers on the same account as much as you like.


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## jumpyg2 (Jan 24, 2006)

ls7dude said:


> We could be faced with not having this option at all... and to me, I'm happy to pay for it.
> 
> It would be really cool for all of the complaining to stop about it and turn around and thank Dish for the option.


If Dish charged $300 for this option, there would still be people defending them. Even at $500, some people would say it's great and people who don't want to pay it are cheap. Ho hum.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

jumpyg2 said:


> If Dish charged $300 for this option, there would still be people defending them. Even at $500, some people would say it's great and people who don't want to pay it are cheap. Ho hum.


And of course if they only charged $10.00 for this option there'd still be people whining about the price and whether Dish ought to be allowed to "rip off" it's customer's this way. These are arguments I don't really get personally, if it's worth it to you then pay the price, if not then don't, Seems pretty simple to me.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm glad Dish put on the $40 fee, it kept me from getting it and getting locked into dish. I have no allegiance to any provider and will go with the one with the most bang for the buck (HD wise). I'd consider paying if one could still view them after you left Dish. I have D-VHS copies of programs from firewire when I had Comcast and I didn't even have to pay for that. This is a reason to go back to Comcast when they carry more HD in my area.


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## rocky01 (Mar 20, 2005)

HDlover said:


> ... This is a reason to go back to Comcast when they carry more HD in my area.


 I was with you until you got to this last point.  Comcast is least customer oriented of all and HD quality is minimal. I feel for those in condos for example who can't shop around. Sure, Dish is at least trying to offer good value and makes an effort to hide the seams of the HD Lite fabric they're sewing together.  I DO have some affinity to Dish but this $40 expansion jack thing is unnerving. I would imagine those of us who subscribe to HD are also maxing out with the top tier E* programming packages, so we should be treat well in return. Charging something for R&D for the software is PERHAPS understandable, but $40 is a bit much.

Fios' bonafide HD (along with trouble free customer service) is a draw. I like idea that my 18 mo. commitment is due to be fulfilled shortly, so I'll have to view some more Fios TV before then to see if I'm ready to switch. More power to those who don't mind paying for the privilege, it's your choice to make. It's just that I'm not persuaded.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

ls7dude said:


> ...
> 
> We could be faced with not having this option at all... and to me, I'm happy to pay for it.
> 
> It would be really cool for all of the complaining to stop about it and turn around and thank Dish for the option.


In post #37 six days ago I, the starter of this thread, publicly gave up my argument against the fee. Yet this thread still continues!

I'm not complaining any more, as I see how happy people are to have the option.

And since then I lost about 20 recordings on my 622's hard drive due to "Error 05", whatever that is. So I can see the value of having an external HD backup.

So, Is7dude, I am happy for you. And I wish I had backed up my recordings before they got corrupted.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

TiVoPrince said:


> *$39.95*
> for 'all you can ever eat' seems to be a reasonable number. Once the lanch issues disappear I will probably sign up in time for the new fall season...


$39.95 is an utter insult!

They consider $40 resonable to turn on a feature?

Yes they have some R&D but what the [email protected]#$%% am I paying not only a monthly rental fee but also a BS DVR fee for?

They already get $12 a month from me just for having a 622 and now this???

If you buy a 622 the fee should be a part of the purchase. If you rent for $12 a month it should be a part of that.

What a total crock!

I'm sure there will be a ton of people saying how cheap it is and poor Dish has to recover all the R&D they needed but it seems that our $12 pays for the R&D needed to create the 622 so why is this different.

Many people, myself included, already think that the $6 a month "DVR" fee is total BS and that we get nothing for this.

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

tsmacro said:


> And of course if they only charged $10.00 for this option there'd still be people whining about the price and whether Dish ought to be allowed to "rip off" it's customer's this way. These are arguments I don't really get personally, if it's worth it to you then pay the price, if not then don't, Seems pretty simple to me.


$10 would still be wrong but it would be a bit easier to swallow. I don't like the $6 a month "ripoff" DVR fee that gives us ZERO yet I have to pay it because every provider rips off their customers by charging a DVR fee so it somehow is ok.

At $10 I might just get it... I'd not like it and I still feel that our $12 a month 622 rental fee should cover upgrades.

$40 is just an insult. How did they come up with the $40 number? Did they divide their R&D costs based on an expected number of people who will pay for it? What if this number is more? Do they refund some of our money?

Or did they do a study and come up with a number that was just high enough to maximize their profit?

Remember that people may stay with a company for a long time because they feel that they have no choice. Dish may be the best of the worst but there is zero loyalty when they pull stunts like the DVR fee that pays for nothing or now this $40 fee to turn on a feature that is now built into every 622.

Same goes for forced programming. Eventually "real" competition will come forth and people will leave in droves.

Right now I stay with Dish because they are the best of the worst. The PQ has gotten so bad that Dish can no longer tell people to switch because they look better than cable. The $20 HD fee is utter stupid and way way too much and charging people who want a 622 but not pay the ripoff $20 a month HD-lite fee $6 a month is also another money grab.

Yes cable does it and yes DTV does it but it does not make it right.

The grass is not greener which is why I stay but if I ever get a real option to switch I'm gone in a second.

This $40 fee has just been added to the bottom of the "scr-w the customer list"

-JB


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Gee, Dish charges $6 for the receiver and $6 for DVR fee - my local cable company charges $13 for the HD receiver/DVR. Ah, but Dish has packages that eliminate DVR fees (America's Everything) or reduces them (DVR Advantage) - it's good that the charges are separate. 

Companies are in business to make a profit. If you don't like it go somewhere else. I suspect all of you that are whining earn a living doing something that ultimately charges "customers", and you might be offended if you were therefore accused of scr*wing them.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Prices are set based on what the market will bear. There is no obligation to return excess profits to the purchaser. The reason so many set top boxes are in the $300 range is because that is the number that people will pay. When the Dish 921 came out, only early adopters jumped on the $1000 price. Even at $600 the market was limited. When the 622 came out and you could get your hands on one for $300 even though it was a lease, the lines were out the door. I was there making that call the first day and the earliest install I could get was 3 weeks away. I think the 622 has been a very successful product and it is loaded with features. I am happy that they thought ahead to put the USB port on there and have now activated it. I probably pay close to $100/mo now for TV entertainment on 3 receivers. Would I like it to be $50? Who wouldn't. That doesn't mean that I don't continue to subscribe to what I want. My neighbor has a gardner and a guy that takes care of his pool. I choose to do my own gardening and pool maintenance. On the other hand, I spend several thousand a year on my winemaking. We each spend hopefully within our budgets as we see fit. The choice is always yours as to whether to keep your wallet in your pocket or to whip out that credit card. 

..Doyle


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

patmurphey said:


> Gee, Dish charges $6 for the receiver and $6 for DVR fee - my local cable company charges $13 for the HD receiver/DVR. Ah, but Dish has packages that eliminate DVR fees (America's Everything) or reduces them (DVR Advantage) - it's good that the charges are separate.
> 
> Companies are in business to make a profit. If you don't like it go somewhere else. I suspect all of you that are whining earn a living doing something that ultimately charges "customers", and you might be offended if you were therefore accused of scr*wing them.


So we should be happy that Dish screws us less than the other guys?

Maybe we should be happy LOL but as I pointed out eventually we'll have a real choice and then Dish might not be so happy that they nickeled and dimed us to death.

All I asked for time and again was "any" justification for charging people $6 just because we have a DVR - even if we owned it and all the Dish Fanboys could come up with was this same old tired line... "well the other guys are worse"

Well other guys worse or not I still want to know what my $6 is paying for. I want to know why I have to pay $40 to turn on a feature that is already insode my unit especially since I'm already forking over $12 a month to rent the unit after paying $200 up front just to get the unit.

Where do you draw the line? Dish pays for programmers to upgrade the software and seemingly this is paid for out of rental or monthly fees. Even if this was a special project that costs them more money how is this any different than other features on the 622 that "I" may not use?

I don't use the OTA tuner on the 622 but I paid for it along with any part of the programming required. Why not charge people $39.95 to turn on the OTA tuner?

How about charging $39.95 if you want to use the 622 on two TV's instead of one.

Am I being silly? Of course I am but I still see this as a bad precedent. Charging people for special features only if they will use them may seem like a good idea but if I never use the OTA tuner or second TV function but want to backup my programs via USB I have to pay for this.

Now how hard was it to program a transfer to USB drive anyway? The core function was already there. While I'm not saying that it took an hour I am questioning chraging $39.95 x however number of people pay for this.

What happens when they recope there costs? Do they then remove the fee or continue to charge people for providing no service.

This is no different than the $6 charge if you do not take that ripoff $20 HD package. I expected to pay the $6 a month for my 18 month contract because I figured they had to recope there costs but after the 18 months they tell me I have to continue to pay the $6 a month 622 fee. Buy the 622 yourself? Same fee.

So Dish what did it cost you to program a HD USB backup?
What does my $6 DVR fee pay for?
What does my 622 "no-HD" fee pay for?
If I buy my 622 then why must I pay a $6 a month "no-HD" fee?

Questions questions but the only answer is from Dish fanboys who say that I should be happy because Dish screws me less than the other guy.

Gee... thanks Dish!

-JB


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

Reality check, folks: If you don't like the way Echostar runs Dish Network then go somewhere else for your television programming. All the *****ing and moaning in the world here won't change a single thing. And when it's all said and done you've got to remember - it's still only television.


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## 459707 (Aug 15, 2007)

Here is my two cents: Tell me what you think.

1. $40.00 does seem steep....Maybe $19.99 would be more reasonable. Although E* could charge for other things, this just seems lame. The USB port is there, so why should I pay to use it. You don't pay per USB port on your computer to plug in a USB printer, camera, flash drive, etc, so why should this be different on a satellite receiver?

2. If E* insists on charging $40 for this feature, along with it they should give you coupon for buying an External Hard Drive. Say I pay $40, but then get a $15 off coupon good on most EHDs. Sounds good to me!

3. Why doesn't E* sell their OWN hard drives. They could partner with WD, Maxtor, etc. and make a drive that would match the 622/722 and could sell that along with the activation fee. Again, the coupon would work here, or you could pay $20 for the activation, and $80 for the drive.

4. Even if I do backup my shows, I can’t do anything with them. Sure, I can play them back on another 622 or 722 but what if my receiver dies. I just don't trust Hard drives, I’ve learned this the hard way. Unless there is a way that I could store my stuff on the EHD, then move the shows on my computer, there isn’t much hope. It’s like saying “I know my tv shows are on there, I just don’t know if they will play tomorrow” Just like VCR tapes, Hard drives were out, and I just can’t take a chance. Sure I can buy a DVD recorder, but then I can’t record them in full HD, and I have to do it in real time. (2hr show takes 2hrs + time to start, stop, and cue them up). If I could take them from my EHD and move them to a computer, I could do it in high speed. (2hrs = 15mins) 

So what do you think?

Thanks for letting me vent/get those ideas off my chest.

-Scott


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> ...
> Am I being silly? Of course I am but I still see this as a bad precedent. ...


Definitely a bad precedent. That was my point in post #20 and the whole reason I started this thread. I can live with a one time fee and $40 is not a big deal to me if I decide to activate external USB drives, but if everyone pays $40 then you can certainly expect more and more of this in the future from Dish.

jrb531 - Where were you when I started this thread? It seemed I was really getting shot down back then and could have used some help.


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

brettbolt said:


> Definitely a bad precedent.


No, a bad precedent was putting all this programming on DBS and charging for it in the first place. I suppose it should have been free from the beginning. Once you start charging for the programming, where does it end - here a charge, there a charge, everywhere a charge. Next thing you know they'll start charging for pay per view. The nerve!


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

l8er said:


> No, a bad precedent was putting all this programming on DBS and charging for it in the first place. I suppose it should have been free from the beginning. Once you start charging for the programming, where does it end - here a charge, there a charge, everywhere a charge. Next thing you know they'll start charging for pay per view. The nerve!


Thats a very bad analogy. We are talking here about charging for software upgrades which have always been free (until now). You're can't compare that to programming content which we have always paid for -- thats silly.

Here are a few reasons why Dish might implement a feature like external HD capability.
1) To enhance the product and attract more new customers to the 622.
2) To gain a competitive advantage over a rival (like cable or DirecTV).
3) To keep existing customers happy so they stay with Dish
4) So they can charge a fee outright and make money right away

They chose option #4, and they also get some of the benefits of options #1 and #2, but it takes away some of the benefits from option #3 (keep existing customers happy). Not all customers are happy to pay for the upgrade. (Yes, there are many exceptions here which have pronounced their happiness for external HD). If you are happy to have the feature and pay for it, thats great -- start your own 'I love External HD' thread. But you can't deny that at least SOME existing customers are unhappy about the $40 fee.

As a successful small business owner myself (for the past 17 years), I think that Dish is being very short sighted by chosing option #4.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

jal said:


> Totally unreasonable nickel and diming by Dish. With Directv, there's no extra charge. Dish has a habit of feeing everyone to death. Let's not forget the per DVR fee (per household with Directv), the $20 HD fee ($10 with Directv), the HD "enabling fee" (no such charge with Directv), the extra $1 per HD box, etc.
> 
> This time, Dish has gone over the top.


Difference is that the HR20 External support disconnects the internal drive when you plug in the external drive. Then you have the joy  of setting up everything as if it were a new receiver. With the HR20 if you start using multiple EHDs I suspect that the reboot and guide data download will grow to be a royal pain.

No way to move things from the internal drive to multiple external drives from D*. With E* you could have 5, 10, 20 external drives and organize things saved that way. And unpugging the external drive still leaves all your timers and settings and recordings. if you prefer free but limited utility then use D*. when I saw the chat and found out for sure that I could use more than 1 drive on the same receiver if only one at a time. I jumped for joy. I ran out that evening and started with two 500gig WDs having already signed up for that feature from work in the morning the first day it came available.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

brettbolt said:


> Definitely a bad precedent. That was my point in post #20 and the whole reason I started this thread. I can live with a one time fee and $40 is not a big deal to me if I decide to activate external USB drives, but if everyone pays $40 then you can certainly expect more and more of this in the future from Dish.
> 
> jrb531 - Where were you when I started this thread? It seemed I was really getting shot down back then and could have used some help.


*smiles* Sorry I was late in your thread but if you ask around I have been pretty outspoken about some of Dish's fees.

I see from above that once again some Dish Fanboy comes back with the old "if you don;t like it then leave" response.

Well if you read my post I would not have to repeat myself... Once I do have a choice I will leave!

Right now Dish screws us less than the other guys but screw us they are still doing. When someone comes around that screws me less than Dish then I will most certainly move on. Dish knows this and as long as they make sure they screw us a bit less than their competition then they are fine.

Just don't expect me to like it and smile while Dish screws us less and have me say "Thanks you Dish may I have another"

Notice how no one will answer my questions?

I've asked them all for almost a year in different threads but no Dish Fanboy can or will answer them... All they come back with is the same tired old line of "Dish screws you less so you should be happy" or "Just leave if you don't like being screwed"

So I'll ask again (and again and again LOL)

1. What service are DVR owners getting over non-DVR owners that cost $6 a month?

2. If I elect to buy a 622 then why does dish charge me an extra $6 per month if I do not elect to subscribe to HD programing?

3. If I rent a 622 and do not want HD I pay $6 a month "fair share" to cover I would assume to be R&D - I am also assuming that if I subscribe to the $20 HD package that this is part of the $20 fee. So once you recover your R&D for the 622 then this fee stops? The price of the $20 package goes down?

Hmmm you say I will "forever" have to pay this $6 fee. Why? If I buy the 622 at full retail then seemingly the R&D has already been paid for in the purchase price. After all I do not even have to subscribe to Dish if I was a nut-job and only wanted to put the 622 unused on my shelf 

I'll stop now.... I could go on but the point is that Dish has figured out the game. Many of us have not.

The game is fees. They rent us equipment but after so many months of rentals the equipment is paid for. If we keep the equipment that keep charging us and it's pure profit.

How much does a 622 cost dish to produce? Not what it costs us to buy one but their costs? $300

So they charge us $199 up front (now it's less I'm told) so they already recover at least half of their costs.

Now they have to recover $100 so they charge us a rental fee of $6 per month and require us to keep paying this for at least 18 months. So now after 18 months they have an additional $108 so now they have gotten $307 from us for the 622.

Now lets factor in the $6 a month additional fee that comes out of your $20 per month HD package ($6 fee if you do not take HD) and now in 18 months you have an additional $108

Now lets add in the $6ish DVR fee so add yet another $108

So lets add them up:

$199 initial fee
$108 18 months rental
$108 18 months HD fee
$108 18 month DVR fee

Total = $523

Now that the 622 is cheaper I am guessing that their costs to produce a 622 has gone down in the past year or so.

So here we are 18 months later and Dish has already gotten their money from us and the 622 is 100% paid for.

Ah ha!

But we keep paying the $6 per month 622 rental
But we keep paying the $6 per mont HD fee
But we keep paying the $6 per month DVR fee

So each year we keep the 622 "after" our 18 month commit means $18 pure profit to Dish or $216 per year for nothing whatsoever.

Long ago the Ma Bells got in big trouble because they were charging $5 a month to rent your phone. Some people were paying this $5 ($60 per year) for 20 years! for a phone that cost no more than $50 to make.

Is Dish doing the very same thing here?

Well "technically" no

622 rental fee: Well as long as they replace broken 622's at no cost then yes they can say the $72 a year rental (a bit steap!) covers this.

622 DVR fee: Utter and complete BS!!! They provide nothing different to DVR owners than they do non-DVR owners. Non-DVR owners are provided with a programming guide and this is all a DVR needs. They already charge an extra $1 for DVR's so they cannot say the DVR fee is used to replace more expensive equipment.

622 HD Fee: Once again Pure BS! If Dish needs to recover the extra cost of providing a 622 vs a 522 then either allow me to pay for said difference up front or once the difference had been made up then stop the $6 a month fee.

And now to the hardest part to justify.

I buy my own 622 lock stock and barrel. I do not want HD programming as I only want the 622 due to it's extra SD storage space or heck... I like the way it looks LOL.

WHAT JUSTIFICATION CAN DISH PROVIDE TO CHARGE ME $6 A MONTH IF I BUY A 622 AND DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO HD PROGRAMING???

Now without falling back to the old Dish Fanboy speak of "well the other guy screws you worse so please lick ole Chucks boots"

(and assuming you read all of this crazy post LOL)

Can you answer any of these questions?

-JB

P.S. Bonus points if you can come up with a reason to charge $40 to turn on a feature that your unit already has.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Strangely enough here at work the pickiest customers are also the most frugal. They want every detail including the life history and how many hours of use has that used Computer got on it.

However getting back on topic:

I feel that $40 fee + $199 per 500 gig to allow me to have a HD jukebox device was very reasonable. I now have something not available in HD-DVD or BR. A Device that can hold many HD movies to pick and choose from. And I didn't even have to pay $30 or $40 per title.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> Difference is that the HR20 External support disconnects the internal drive when you plug in the external drive. Then you have the joy  of setting up everything as if it were a new receiver. With the HR20 if you start using multiple EHDs I suspect that the reboot and guide data download will grow to be a royal pain.
> 
> No way to move things from the internal drive to multiple external drives from D*. With E* you could have 5, 10, 20 external drives and organize things saved that way. And unpugging the external drive still leaves all your timers and settings and recordings. if you prefer free but limited utility then use D*. when I saw the chat and found out for sure that I could use more than 1 drive on the same receiver if only one at a time. I jumped for joy. I ran out that evening and started with two 500gig WDs having already signed up for that feature from work in the morning the first day it came available.


All well and good but this costs $40 from everyone?

How about this? I only need "one" hard drive on "one" 622 so can I have it for free then?

All those with 20 HD backup units on multiple 622's can pay the $40 - those of us who only want extra space on one 622 can get it for free?

Better?

*smiles*

-JB


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

"1. What service are DVR owners getting over non-DVR owners that cost $6 a month?"

You're kidding? The ability to record and watch later and the ability to skip over commercials and other content of no interest. The ability to pause the show when the phone rings or you are thirsty or or need to make a pit stop and the ability to FF past dull parts and the ability to jump back if you missed something.

The ability to replay something without having to wait for it to be broadcast again if ever. 

If these are not important to you then use a non-dvr. However you say "I only want the 622 due to it's extra SD storage space" which implies you do want the extra storage space and my guess is that when the drive eventually dies in it as all hard drives do die then you'll be moaning about your lost archived recordings.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> Strangely enough here at work the pickiest customers are also the most frugal. They want every detail including the life history and how many hours of use has that used Computer got on it.
> 
> However getting back on topic:
> 
> I feel that $40 fee + $199 per 500 gig to allow me to have a HD jukebox device was very reasonable. I now have something not available in HD-DVD or BR. A Device that can hold many HD movies to pick and choose from. And I didn't even have to pay $30 or $40 per title.


You can call me picky or frugal or any other name you choose but never forget that the only reason big business is often kept in check is due to people like us who actually "question" things and as such do not allow a company to do anything they want.

I'm not blind. I know full well that the program distributors have congress in their back pockets and I also know full well that some of the posters here are also the ears and voice of the programmers because the name of the game is to milk every last penny out of us $1 here or $1 there and in the few years I asked this question not a single person has been able to answer:

If I paid 100% for my equipment and 100% for my install and I agreed to pay my fair share for Dish to upkeep my account and keep the birds in the sky....

Why Can't I subscribe to a single channel of my choosing no matter what the cost?

I think we all know the answers. Everytime there is a study about how TV is distributed the same results come back - consumers have very little choice in the programming they pay for. The recomendations hit congress and the FCC and a committee is formed and everything is tabled.

Debates start on these forums and the "channel counters" tell us how cheap the 10 zillion channels we have are "per channel" and the other side counter that we only watch 5 channels upon which they counter...

if you were allowed to pick your channels allthe channels you would pick would suck and be cancelled or those 5 channels would cost more than the 50 channels you are currently forced to pay for.

Same goes for equipment.

-JB


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

brettbolt said:


> Thats a very bad analogy.


 No, it's not. You people are *****ing about charging for something - whether that's a service, a feature, a software upgrade, a new feature or whatever - the complaint is charging for it.

All companies (the ones that are profitable and still around anyway) have a long history under the free enterprise system of charging for products and/or services. If the public wants those services and/or products they have a choice - buy them, or don't buy them.

Like I said earlier, all the *****ing in the world in this forum about it isn't going to change a !(&#*^ thing. If you don't want the feature or don't like the Dish Network business model then take your business to some other company.

Good gawd.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> "1. What service are DVR owners getting over non-DVR owners that cost $6 a month?"
> 
> You're kidding? The ability to record and watch later and the ability to skip over commercials and other content of no interest. The ability to pause the show when the phone rings or you are thirsty or or need to make a pit stop and the ability to FF past dull parts and the ability to jump back if you missed something.
> 
> ...


Dish provide non-DVR owners with a programming guide for free correct?

The ability to rewind, record, pause or whatnot has nothing to do with the DVR service fee but rather the unit itself.

Dish charges DVR owners $6 a month for what? What does this "mystery" $6 go towards?

It clearly does not go towards programming data because everyone gets the program guide for free.

It clearly does not go towards the hardware because we pay extra to rent a DVR over a non-dvr

People who own their DVR's still pay this "mystery" fee.

So what does it pay for?

To date the best answer I have gotten was that Dish "used" to not charge for DVR's (501, 508, 510's do not have this fee) but looked at all the other comapnies that were ripping off their customers and said... gee wiz we should start charging to. Since everyone else is doing it then we can get away with it.

Try calling Dish and asking what the DVR fee pay for. Go ahead I dare ya. It's worth a good laugh.

I also called Dish and asked a supervisor about why I would have to pay a $6 fee if I bought a 622 with my own money and elected to not subscribe to HD.

Answer: Because the $6 fee pays for the HD programming that is not in the $20 HD package

When I nicely asked them what channels are in HD that were not a part of the HD package I was told that there are none currently but if Dish ever did get any that I would get them!

Can you beleive this stuff?????

-JB


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

jrb531 said:


> ... When I nicely asked them what channels are in HD that were not a part of the HD package I was told that there are none currently ....


 Ah, but there are some currently and have been for years. If you subscribe to HBO, Cinemax, Showtime or Starz, you get the HD versions of those channels at no additional charge (with an MPEG2 capable receiver). Likewise with local channels but you do get charged the $6 HD enabling fee when you upgrade to an MPEG4 capable receiver whether you subscribe to the $20 HD package or not. With the continuing move to MPEG4, it's more likely you won't have a choice on the $6 HD enabling fee.

And I would venture to say you'll likely get different answers to various questions with other providers, too, depending on the CSR you get and how knowledgeable or informed they are (or aren't). No single CSR or CSR supervisor is likely to know everything about every service and product their company offers.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> P.S. Bonus points if you can come up with a reason to charge $40 to turn on a feature that your unit already has.


Because it didn't already have it. The port was there and powered. The box has an o/s, but I've never seen anyone report how to get to a shell prompt. They had to write a UI that users would find... usable  while not angering their programming partners. It's a software upgrade, pre-delivered but optional.

If you wanted to know why people should pay Dish $40 for something that Dish knows will turn them into a life-long source of revenue? I got nu'in. :shrug: Dish should take a cue from street dealers (at least the ones on TV) and make this freely available to all ViP users.

Maybe us paying $40 is proof that TV is more addictive than crack?


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## sgip2000 (Jun 5, 2007)

jrb531 said:


> Dish provide non-DVR owners with a programming guide for free correct?
> 
> The ability to rewind, record, pause or whatnot has nothing to do with the DVR service fee but rather the unit itself.
> 
> ...


Just so you know, I agree with you 100%.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> You can call me picky or frugal or any other name you choose but never forget that the only reason big business is often kept in check is due to people like us who actually "question" things and as such do not allow a company to do anything they want....
> -JB


Exactly. What I see as both a business owner and a consumer is an increasing trend toward 'submissiveness' among the public. People don't seem as willing to stand up for themselves against big business as much as they used to. And companies like Dish Network take advantage of this by experimenting with creative new fees.

In the case of TV, what makes it worse is the *extremely* limited choice of providers. Most of us have only 3 choices - Dish, DirecTV, and cable.

The bottom line is that having only 3 choices for TV are not enough, and until there are more choices you can expect to be nickled and dimed to the max. Now just imagine how much worse it would be now if Dish and DirecTV were allowed to merge a few years ago!


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## Hunter Green (May 8, 2006)

I see exactly the opposite: people have gotten so much free for so long that they get used to expecting everything free. Free content, free upgrades, free functionality. People buy something and then whine when it doesn't get free upgrades that add new features that weren't even promised when they bought it. 30 years ago that attitude wouldn't even have been laughable, it would have been insane.

What would have been wrong (but all too common) is if Dish had increased everyone's bill $5, whether they used this new feature or not, to cover the development and support costs. The very people decrying this fee are the ones who should be first to hail it, if they thought it through. This represents Dish *not* charging you for a feature *unless you use it*. If that's unusual, and it is, consider how much better your Dish bill would be if they did everything that way -- if you only paid for what you used.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

Hunter Green said:


> I see exactly the opposite: people have gotten so much free for so long that they get used to expecting everything free. Free content, free upgrades, free functionality. ...


Hmm, all the items on my DN bill have charges listed. I'm not seeing anything free here. 


Hunter Green said:


> ... consider how much better your Dish bill would be if they did everything that way -- if you only paid for what you used.


Sounds GREAT to me. Carrying your argument further, we should only be charged for the channels we actually watch. So if I have AT100 and only watch 5 channels my bill would be only about $5, right?


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## audiomaster (Jun 24, 2004)

Compared to what they could have done with proprietary drives with big price tags, $40 was a minor bump in the road.[/QUOTE]
I am surprised they didn't want to lease the things to us by the month and own them themselves like they prefer to do with the receivers. . But I suspect there might be legal issues when someone returned one with unknown content on it?


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## rocky01 (Mar 20, 2005)

Hunter Green, at least you have some kinda logic going for you. However, Dish has always stressed value compared to the other options available out there. So much so that I'm always interested in signing up for new technologies, programming and services that E* offers. There IS some loyalty, since I like Charlie's philosophy behind delivering the goods. However this $40 thing - I've really stumbled over. It's the principle of the thing AND the fact that it's to enable a connector (for goodnes sakes!) on a DVR we're already being charged plenty for. No question it's anti-value-added and NOT business as usual. Why dis your most enthusiast customer core? It makes you wonder since in addition to the the usual suspects there's a whole new class of competition in fiber optic telcos ready and willing do more, offer more in order to get more of the finite market share.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I was really trying to avoid jumping into this one, but figured I would offer up a few points.. 

1) DVR fee.. It is a fee that the market seems to be willing to bear. I personally would like it to be a per account fee and feel that is reasonable rather than a per receiver. DVRs do require more maintenance and there is the bigger software aspect of it than regular receivers has so I can see DVR folks chipping in a bit more than than non-DVR folks. There definiteliy is value added functionality here for sure.

2) The HD enabling fee.. In my opinion it is obviously a deterrent fee. They want HD receivers to be used for HD customer and SD receivers to be used by SD customer. If they did not do this... There would be lot more SD customers wanting HD receivers for the larger drives to be used for SD purposes and an HD receiver obviously costs more to produce. The want to limit this practice so they created a fee for it. 

3) USB Fee. Well first off this is not a few lines of code and bingo you have the feature. A user interface had to be created, functionality to manage the movement of content around etc. In addition there was a obviously a need to create an infrastructure to support the DRM requirements and activation both on the 622/722 and at the Dish host end. In addition this feature will definitely result in increased support calls around it so there is cost there also. Guess the powers to be decided this cost should be partially absorbed by people wanting the feature rather than across the whole consumer base. 

The other thing I am sure was considered was the "free so lets give it a try" phenomena. By asking for a fee to get in the door the people that really want the feature will pay the fee while the people just wanting to give it a try will not and thus that will limit your support burden. 

The management of this feature for each customer to Dish is not free. Their is work that has to be done so that the USB drives are tied to a specific receiver and hopefully to account. 

Of all the fees above, the one I think that needs the most re-thinking is the DVR fee itself. The other two I personally see some rational behind though I can see why others might not. 

When it comes down to it when looking at fees it all comes down to total cost for the service, does it mean your personal requirements for features, and what you get for that price compared to the competition that should decide were your money goes. 

I understand that some people don't have a lot of choice because of location, well that is reality of life and i live to but the one positive is that if you look at the companies on a global basis, they should be keeping each other in check. Hopefully as competition increases Dish and other companies will have to be more aggressive in fee management and we as consumers will see the benefit. 

Well that is my 2 cents... I have been watching this thread for a while and I understand this topic can get heated. Lets remember everyone's opinion is welcome and please everyone lets try to avoid any personal attacks for people whose opinions differ on the topic.


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## dsilinski (Feb 22, 2006)

The last straw for me came with the new HD channels. What I mean is that with the additional HD channels everything I watch is now in HD. But instead of being able to purchase just the HD package I have to pay for a SD package first. So that forces me to pay twice for the same product, along with about 80 channels I don't watch . I can think of no other product that I purchase that I am forced to do this. I would be willing to pay a little more for the HD package, and the rinky dink fees, if I didn't have to buy the same channels twice.
I know analogies are tortured at times but here are a couple. I went to fill up my car and wanted to get the 93 octane but if I did I still would have to pay for the same amount in 87 octane. I then went to get a cup of coffee and wanted to get a premium coffee but they insisted that I also pay for the cheap cup, I declined.
Before the "dish can do no wrong" posters start posting, I know I can just cancel, that is precisely what I did.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

dsilinski said:


> The last straw for me came with the new HD channels. What I mean is that with the additional HD channels everything I watch is now in HD. But instead of being able to purchase just the HD package I have to pay for a SD package first. So that forces me to pay twice for the same product, along with about 80 channels I don't watch . I can think of no other product that I purchase that I am forced to do this. I would be willing to pay a little more for the HD package, and the rinky dink fees, if I didn't have to buy the same channels twice.
> I know analogies are tortured at times but here are a couple. I went to fill up my car and wanted to get the 93 octane but if I did I still would have to pay for the same amount in 87 octane. I then went to get a cup of coffee and wanted to get a premium coffee but they insisted that I also pay for the cheap cup, I declined.
> Before the "dish can do no wrong" posters start posting, I know I can just cancel, that is precisely what I did.


Well.. using your gasoline example... You are paying the cost of the 87 octane plus a premium "fee" per gallon to get the 93 octane.

You are willing to pay more for just HD... but you don't want to pay for SD channels you aren't watching... so consider that the cost of HD is what you are paying, and those SD channels are "free" to you. Seriously... that makes as much sense as getting mad and feeling irritated all the time and not enjoying anything, doesn't it?


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> ...
> The other thing I am sure was considered was the "free so lets give it a try" phenomena. By asking for a fee to get in the door the people that really want the feature will pay the fee while the people just wanting to give it a try will not and thus that will limit your support burden.....


I understand that DN will probably incur additional support costs for external HD. It would have been really nice if they only charged those who actually need tech support for their external HD. You could call it an 'optional feature support fee', but only those who call for help would pay it.

I'm not against paying for service, but like most people I dislike unexpected and/or hidden fees. When I bought my 622 with an external USB port, there was no pre-disclosure of any fee to 'activate it'. They disclosed the DVR fee, HD enabling fee, no-phone line fee, and programming fees, but there was never a mention of this new activation fee.

Its like they added $40 to the cost of the 622 AFTER we bought them.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Actually, the USB port was active before they enabled it for External Hard Drive support. The fee is not to activate the port, but to activate the ability to archive content on USB drives for your account. I am going to assume that your 622 purchase experience was the same as mine, you are correct that you were told about this activation fee as I was not either, but I was also not told I would be able at some future date be able to archive my content to a USB drive. 

I consider archiving content to a separate drive and value added extra feature. As such, I would have liked it to be a free feature but I also see that it can be subject to additional fees. I don't think E* was deceptive in anyway on the roll out of this feature and in fact a number of months prior to its release there was mention of an additional fee.

As for "Optional Feature support"... well I am sure as soon as someone called asking for support and being told they were going to be charged to talk to someone, we would be having a thread discussing that issue. In the old days.. that was tried with software and is not well received. 

I understand the unexpected fee argument and I respect it. Heck as a consumer I don't want to pay a penny more than I have to (I do have Scots blood running through me). Heck I recently posted in a thread about an upgrade fee for software that I thought was out of line given my situation, but the fact is, this feature is a value added optional feature and is not required for the 622/722 to function so in my opinion it they do have a right to charge for it if they feel they benefits outweigh the negatives of such a fee. 

Some people are going to feel the benefits outweigh the cost and pony up the fee. Others are going to feel the feature benefit does not warrant a cost. While others like yourself will feel that it is unreasonable and voice their opinions in a thread like this and that is all good and is what should happen. 

Nothing wrong with your side of the argument and you have been professional about it. Lets hope this thread will continue to keep this tone.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> ...
> Nothing wrong with your side of the argument and you have been professional about it. Lets hope this thread will continue to keep this tone.


Thanks, and you have some good points on this issue too.

I think we have worn this subject out. I can't think of any more new arguments to present here. Any objections if we close this thread?


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## dsilinski (Feb 22, 2006)

HDMe said:


> Well.. using your gasoline example... You are paying the cost of the 87 octane plus a premium "fee" per gallon to get the 93 octane.
> 
> You are willing to pay more for just HD... but you don't want to pay for SD channels you aren't watching... so consider that the cost of HD is what you are paying, and those SD channels are "free" to you. Seriously... that makes as much sense as getting mad and feeling irritated all the time and not enjoying anything, doesn't it?


I am sorry, but I don't quite understand your reply. With the gas example are saying you would find it acceptable to pay for 10 gallons of 93 at $3.50 a gallon for a total of $35 and then be told you also have to pay the $3 a gallon for the 87 just because you are buying the premium? Or are you saying I should just look at it as the premium gas cost $6.50 a gallon?
If it is the latter than I guess you are saying that instead of looking at it as paying for the SD package at $29.99 plus the HD package at $20 I should just see it as the HD package at $49.99 plus all that free SD programming. If, in fact, that is your point then I understand, and you make a good point. When I think of it I would find that pricing structure easier to accept, and they could keep their duplicitous SD package. My choice is then do I want to purchase the package or not and as I stated in my previous post I choose not to.
Finally, I am not mad or irritated. I fully understand that any company can price their product as they see fit, and to maximize profits. In other words what the market will bear, supply and demand. Isn't that what made this country great?
Likewise the consumer has a choice, and I made mine.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

brettbolt said:


> Thanks, and you have some good points on this issue too.
> 
> I think we have worn this subject out. I can't think of any more new arguments to present here. Any objections if we close this thread?


Why?

If people still want to talk and you do not then just stop reading this thread.

I really hate when people call for threads to be closed just because "they" no longer want to read them. People are not getting personal here. A good heated debate is just talk. I am not "mad" at people who have a different opinion than mine. My opinion is as good as yours.

Is it so hard for you to just stop reading this thread if you no longer care for what is being talked about?

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

dsilinski said:


> I am sorry, but I don't quite understand your reply. With the gas example are saying you would find it acceptable to pay for 10 gallons of 93 at $3.50 a gallon for a total of $35 and then be told you also have to pay the $3 a gallon for the 87 just because you are buying the premium? Or are you saying I should just look at it as the premium gas cost $6.50 a gallon?
> If it is the latter than I guess you are saying that instead of looking at it as paying for the SD package at $29.99 plus the HD package at $20 I should just see it as the HD package at $49.99 plus all that free SD programming. If, in fact, that is your point then I understand, and you make a good point. When I think of it I would find that pricing structure easier to accept, and they could keep their duplicitous SD package. My choice is then do I want to purchase the package or not and as I stated in my previous post I choose not to.
> Finally, I am not mad or irritated. I fully understand that any company can price their product as they see fit, and to maximize profits. In other words what the market will bear, supply and demand. Isn't that what made this country great?
> Likewise the consumer has a choice, and I made mine.


This goes back to the entire ala cart debate.

I, and others, brought this up long ago but the "channel counters" want nothing to do with even limited choice because it would raise the bills for those who must have 10 zillion channels.

Dish, for the most part, currently had 4 basic packages (not counting the family scam that was only made to try and stop ala cart from being forced on them)

A: $10 Basic
B: $10 Extended Basic
C: $10 Complete Basic
D: $20 High Definition

Now if you want Package A and C they force you to take package B. Why?
Now if you want Package B and C they force you to take package A. Why?
Now if you want Package D you have to take package A.

It's a total joke and the packages are mixed up to try and force people into taking more than we want or need to maximize their profit. This is wrong and in any other industry congress would step in and stop it! Every time it does hit congress they pull out their bribes... err donations and all of a sudden debate gets tables. Heck even there employees on the payroll here start flooding the forums with anti-consumer BS seeding us and our fellow sheep with talk of "gloom and doom" saying that all our favorite channels will go away or suddenly cost 10 times as much.

If I ran Dish this would be my price structure:

$5 per receiver rental (SD receivers would no longer be offered)
$10 per DVR receiver rental (SD DVR's would no longer be offered)

A. $15 Family
B. $15 Sports
C. $15 Educational
D. $15 Movies

$5 per single channel (at least one full package required)

(HD channels would be included above)

Package discounts:

1. 3 packages = 10% discount
2. 4 packages = 15% discount

Now you can pick and choose any packages you want. If you take 3 or 4 packages you would get a small discount.

Examples A:

Home with a single 622

1 package = $10 (622 rental) + $15 = $25 per month
2 packages= $10 (622 rental) + $30 = $40 per month
3 packages= $10 (622 rental) + $45-$4.50 (10% discount) = $50.50 per month
4 packages=$10 (622 rental) + $60-$9.00 (15% discount) = $61 per month

Now the numbers are just an example but this system allows us "some" choice but it's not true ala-cart. You could add a single channel to an existing package (say you like a channel in the sports package but do not like the others) for $5 instead of paying $15 for all the channels in that package.

Will this happen? Not unless congress or the FCC (both) require it. Presently the programmers (ESPN, Disney etc...) tell Dish, DTV, Cable what package they want their channels to be in or they will raise the fees for the channels so high that the distributor cannot afford the popular channels. This prevents the distributors (Dish, DTV, Cable) from packaging the channels how they see fit (or those of you more sceptical would say that ut gives them an out to keep the status quo)

Now who hates such a system? Why the programmers! They know that if we had even a little choice (If people could cancel the sports package if they did not watch sports then ESPN would make less money and then could not offer obscene money to carry exclusive sporting events thus allowing free tv to compete)

Programmers could not force channels to be carried even if the distributors did not want them.

Distributors could not set the packages in a way so that you would be forced to subscribe to "all" the packages to get the handfull that you want.

We lose out because we have to take "all" sports, for example, even if we only want one channel of ESPN.

So it seems that this would be a nice compromise. Everyone gives something up and retains something.

Us: we get limited choice
Distributors: would be free of the programmers telling them where to place channels.
Programmers: would avoid full ala-cart

I have not put in the pay networks as I feel the current structure is just fine as is. In fact I've modeled the above on the current setup in which we have multiple pay network packages (HBO, Showtime etc...) and the more you take the greater the discount.

Why can't this work? Would this not be better and more fair?

-JB


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

dsilinski said:


> If it is the latter than I guess you are saying that instead of looking at it as paying for the SD package at $29.99 plus the HD package at $20 I should just see it as the HD package at $49.99 plus all that free SD programming. If, in fact, that is your point then I understand, and you make a good point. When I think of it I would find that pricing structure easier to accept, and they could keep their duplicitous SD package. My choice is then do I want to purchase the package or not and as I stated in my previous post I choose not to.
> Finally, I am not mad or irritated. I fully understand that any company can price their product as they see fit, and to maximize profits. In other words what the market will bear, supply and demand. Isn't that what made this country great?
> Likewise the consumer has a choice, and I made mine.


That is essentially what I was saying. When I pay my satellite bill I look at the cost vs what I watch each month and decide "is it worth it"... and as long as it is worth it, then I keep paying. If I had a month where I watched no TV at all... then no bill would be worth paying! But if I'm happy watching channels... then it doesn't matter to me that I'm not watching 200+ channels in my package.

Simply put... Unless the package literally was a pay-per-view and I only paid by the minute for time watched... I will always be paying for things I am not watching. I only have 3 tuners available, so only 3 channels can be tuned at any given time. Topping that, I can really only watch 1 channel at a time. If I DVR something to watch later, then whenever I watch that, I am not watching a channel either... so I am always paying for things I am not watching if I wanted to look at it that way.

But I prefer to look at it that I am paying for the privelige of being able to watch whatever the mood strikes me at that time... and as long as my service is working, receiver is working, and I'm getting the channels I expected to get with my package that I agreed to pay the price for... then I have no real complaints.

If you, on the other hand, feel you are paying too much.. then you absolutely have the right to say "I feel I am paying too much"... and then you can go elsewhere or develop other hobbies.

I can't afford to go to the symphony, rock concerts, fancy dinners, fly to Paris, etc. every other day... but complaining about it endlessly accomplishes nothing. Those things are too expensive for me, so I cannot do them.. and I move forward by doing other things that I can afford.

If we were debating being able to afford food or shelter to live.. we have a completely different scenario, as those are necessities, basic ones at that... but TV is a luxury no matter how you slice it.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

HDMe said:


> That is essentially what I was saying. When I pay my satellite bill I look at the cost vs what I watch each month and decide "is it worth it"... and as long as it is worth it, then I keep paying. If I had a month where I watched no TV at all... then no bill would be worth paying! But if I'm happy watching channels... then it doesn't matter to me that I'm not watching 200+ channels in my package.
> 
> Simply put... Unless the package literally was a pay-per-view and I only paid by the minute for time watched... I will always be paying for things I am not watching. I only have 3 tuners available, so only 3 channels can be tuned at any given time. Topping that, I can really only watch 1 channel at a time. If I DVR something to watch later, then whenever I watch that, I am not watching a channel either... so I am always paying for things I am not watching if I wanted to look at it that way.
> 
> ...


The problem is that the programmers (ESPN, Disney etc..) force the same contracts on all distributors (Dish, DTV, Cable) so that the distributors could not offer other options even if they wanted.

IE we have ZERO choice because moving to DTV or Cable does not do a thing.

Our only choice is to not pay for TV at all and this is utter BS.

In any other industry that was so monopolistic the government would force this kind of practice to stop.

I would love to drop Dish because I only want to watch channels in package C but they force me to pay for packages "A" and "B" but DTV and Cable have the very same setup with some very minor channel differences.

This is because, for example, Disney says you need to take all our channels and these are the packages we want you to place them in or we will withhold all our popular channels from you.

I don't like sports? Too figgin bad! You'll pay for them anyway!
I don't want to watch cartoons or Barny the purple idiot? Too bad! You'll pay for those also.

I'd love to have a real choice but when the markey is manipulated so that the only choice we have is to cancel pay tv.

As I have said before. If I only wanted one channel and I paid for all my equipment and my fair share for maintaining the network then why will Dish not take my money? Sell me that one channel for $10 a month and make a huge profit! They know darn well that if they offered such a choice that many people would gladly pay $30 a month for the 5 channels they do watch instead of $50 a month for 50 channels. Channels mean nothing if you do not watch them 

-JB


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

I don't know, JB, but if you were to put the time you've spent typing and reading on this thread to a more productive activity, you could have earned the $40 to pay for this wonderful upgrade.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jrb531 said:


> A good heated debate is just talk.


Unfortunately the definition of "good heated debate" may vary. Sometimes a few people just want to argue with each other making huge statements that others don't want to take the time to read, let alone parse and "debate". We end up with at least two people who will not change their opinion posting as many words as they can think of to wear the other person down to the point where the other person gives up.

The forum could care less about what becomes a private argument and when the argument becomes circular or participants get out of hand the thread is closed.

Where is the "good" in that type of debate? The heated is obvious and is not desired (good calm debates are nice).

Debates can be good when they have structure but when they descend into contests about who can wear the other side down it is no longer a debate - it is a boxing match. There is no debate there ... just competing rants.

And on this subject (E*'s near $40 fee for the ability to use external drives on your account) it is a pointless debate. If the debate was with a decision maker at E* it might make a difference - but I doubt anyone at E* would bother to try to pull the salient points out of this ramble. This thread had turned into tilting at windmills and arguing for the sake of argument.

If you have a point to make, make it - make it brief and move on. If you have already made your point - thank you for participating! If you have posted hundreds of words and still have not made a point I doubt if posting a few hundred more will make a difference.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

James Long said:


> Unfortunately the definition of "good heated debate" may vary. Sometimes a few people just want to argue with each other making huge statements that others don't want to take the time to read, let alone parse and "debate". We end up with at least two people who will not change their opinion posting as many words as they can thing of to wear the other person down to the point where the other person gives up.
> 
> The forum could care less about what becomes a private argument and when the argument becomes circular or participants get out of hand the thread closes.
> 
> ...


I respect this but IMHO this forum is read by members of the industry to at least guage what people are saying. There will always be two sides to a debate and when a thread spirals down to only two people trying to outlast east other then yes it's time to shut it down.

In this thread, so far, I do not see this. While there are two sides (you either accept the $40 as being fair or you do not) there are multiple people on each side.

If everything thread only allowed you to state your opinion and move on... well it would not make for a very interesting forum 

It's no secret that I am pretty firm (some would use other terms LOL) in my thoughts but as heated as things can get in a good debate I never take anything personal.

While some people live for a good heated debate (gets their blood boiling LOL) I understand that others do not. I just do not understand where is says that people "must" read any thread that is still open.

Nuff said. 

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

patmurphey said:


> I don't know, JB, but if you were to put the time you've spent typing and reading on this thread to a more productive activity, you could have earned the $40 to pay for this wonderful upgrade.


LOL I agree it's a wonderful upgrade but I do not agree with the high cost. $40 is not going to break me and yes I can afford it but it's far far too high and some (myself included) feel that improvements to the unit should be paid for out of the $18 a month rental fee we pay ($6 DVR + $6 Rental + $6 HD fee)

A "little" wrong is still a wrong no matter how little you may feel it is. It just pains me to no end to know that Dish (and the other providers) set things up because they know we have little choice in the matter.

-JB


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Don't take "two" literally! We are not boxed in to the situation where if there are three people arguing we must keep the thread open. It could be one person arguing against ten others or an even match. When a moderator feels that there is no place to go but circular (or down) we can close the thread. (And if a new thread is started to restart the argument we can close that one too!)

Many people judge threads by their post counts and closeness to the top of the forum (normally sorted by most recent post). While no one is required to read any thread (although announcement threads are important as rules will be enforced whether or not they are read) by keeping the thread at the top of the forum and increasing the post count you are making the thread "more attractive" to read. Circular arguments tend to increase both of these ratings points without adding any real value to the forum. The unsuspecting reader opens it up and finds out that it is just people yelling at each other.

And while the $40 fee may be the most important thing in your life, it isn't the most important thing in the forum's life.

Enough said? Let's talk about the fee or allow this thread to drift into the sunset.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

BobaBird said:


> Because it didn't already have it. The port was there and powered. The box has an o/s, but I've never seen anyone report how to get to a shell prompt. They had to write a UI that users would find... usable  while not angering their programming partners. It's a software upgrade, pre-delivered but optional.
> 
> If you wanted to know why people should pay Dish $40 for something that Dish knows will turn them into a life-long source of revenue? I got nu'in. :shrug: Dish should take a cue from street dealers (at least the ones on TV) and make this freely available to all ViP users.
> 
> Maybe us paying $40 is proof that TV is more addictive than crack?


Bobabird, Going beyond your explanation why should a DVR owner pay a fee to see pre-delivered PPV? Same reason it is a value added feature that you pay for the value it adds or do not pay. And MS is doing it now too, Pay the upgrade and turn you Vista Home basic into Vista Home premium for example Windows Vista Anytime Upgrade. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pr...orupgrade/windowsanytimeupgrade/overview.mspx


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

dsilinski said:


> The last straw for me came with the new HD channels. What I mean is that with the additional HD channels everything I watch is now in HD. But instead of being able to purchase just the HD package I have to pay for a SD package first. So that forces me to pay twice for the same product, along with about 80 channels I don't watch . I can think of no other product that I purchase that I am forced to do this. I would be willing to pay a little more for the HD package, and the rinky dink fees, if I didn't have to buy the same channels twice.
> I know analogies are tortured at times but here are a couple. I went to fill up my car and wanted to get the 93 octane but if I did I still would have to pay for the same amount in 87 octane. I then went to get a cup of coffee and wanted to get a premium coffee but they insisted that I also pay for the cheap cup, I declined.
> Before the "dish can do no wrong" posters start posting, I know I can just cancel, that is precisely what I did.


Now in effect you are complaining that they gave you more HD channels for the same money. 

BTW you are paying for many of those HD channels in the SD versions so that you get the HD version.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

I talked to AT&T today while at the California State Fair. My area (Rocklin, CA) is scheduled to receive AT&T U-Verse in October!

This came as a total surprise to me. I love having choices for where I get TV service. It will increase from 3 to 4 very soon.

I am hopeful that additional competition will help hold the line on new fees and price increases.

Each customer who signs on with AT&T will most likely be a lost customer from another provider. If I were in this TV business I would be doing everything I could to keep existing customers happy. Adding fees would certainly not be on my list of things to do, especially when faced with new competition.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

TBoneit said:


> Bobabird, Going beyond your explanation why should a DVR owner pay a fee to see pre-delivered PPV? Same reason it is a value added feature that you pay for the value it adds or do not pay. And MS is doing it now too, Pay the upgrade and turn you Vista Home basic into Vista Home premium for example Windows Vista Anytime Upgrade.


I believe my first paragraph (quoted in #107) is in agreement with you, and is why I bought an EHD. I've yet to pay for the s/w upgrade, but I really need the space as I'm always riding the capacity limits and tired of losing unseen shows.

The second paragraph was looking at the price structure from a different viewpoint. If Dish wasn't so tied into getting extra quarters out of us (this one is beyond nickels and dimes), they could have more of a long-term benefit from offering this feature at no cost. If you have a library of content that is tied to a playback device that happens to work with one service provider, how likely are you to churn to another provider?

I guess the question for Dish then is, how many of the people not willing pay for the s/w would add an EHD if there were no charge for activation?

By the way, thank you for getting :backtotop of the EHD Activation Fee.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

That last question sounded an awful lot like a poll, so... Would you add an External Hard Drive if EHD activation were free?


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

If external HD activation was free and thus more people used external HD to archive shows, it would help E* increase retention of customers who currently lease their 622's.

This is because more customers would have stored archives of movies and shows which they could only watch while connected to E* equipment. Having hard drive(s) full of content would make them think twice before leaving E*.

So which is more valuable to E*, getting $40 now or retaining customers?


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## lionsrule (Nov 25, 2003)

sgip2000 said:


> I don't think charging a fee is unreasonable; however, I feel that the $39.99 fee is unreasonable. $19.99 would have been much more affordable for many people.


Well, I feel that $19.99 is unreasonable. $17.99 would be much more affordable for many people.

BTW, I now have about 70 all-time movies archived in HD on my 3 750 gig HD's I now have attached to my 2 622's. If this thread is a ***** session about price, what you DOING HAVING HD/DVR FEE's, etc... Stick to a OTA and a built in tuner on your TV for free.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Maybe $17.89 would be even more affordable


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

lionsrule said:


> Well, I feel that $19.99 is unreasonable. $17.99 would be much more affordable for many people.
> 
> BTW, I now have about 70 all-time movies archived in HD on my 3 750 gig HD's I now have attached to my 2 622's. If this thread is a ***** session about price, what you DOING HAVING HD/DVR FEE's, etc... Stick to a OTA and a built in tuner on your TV for free.


Why?

Why must some people who have lots of money to burn or place a much higher value on TV as a form of entertainment try and belittle people who do not place the save value on TV?

I guess you could argue that people who would want to save shows on an external hard drive are the more hard core but $40 is alot of money to some people and even if it is not then some (myself included) feel that the fee is either too high or no fee should be charged.

As I have already pointed out... I am already paying $18 a month to rent the 622. Is this not enough cash each month to cover this? ($6 rental + $6 DVR fee + $6 HD fee)

So I already pay $216 each year to rent my 622 from Dish. Now they want another $40 to turn on a feature.

I respect that you feel the $40 is fair and just but I hope you can understand that each side has a valid point and just because other think $40 is too much or that the fee should be covered in the $18 a month rental fee does not make them somehow cheap.

-JB


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## Moridin (Mar 22, 2005)




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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

Moridin said:


>


Nice one Tony!


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## lionsrule (Nov 25, 2003)

You have basically made my point for me. You pay over $200/yr in rental fees? And you are concerned over a ONETimE $40 fee? How does that make any sense? Anyone in here who has ANY financial education KNOWS that you never lease or rent anything. You do NOT rent an apartment, you do NOT rent/lease a car. You own,own,own. Please don't give me the BS answer that "tech changes so if I buy a STB, I'll be sol". That is FLAT OUT B.S. I purchased my original 921 receiver. The amount I paid - the amount I sold it for was FAR less than the amount of monthly rental fees I would have paid. Now, with the 622's (and the fact that we already have mpeg, and NO hardware required upgrades are anywhere close) I have also purchased both of my 622's. 

But I digress.....

If you are interested in this stuff to begin with, you've likely spent money on: a HDTV (several in your case since you have multiple 622's, an audio receiver, speakers, a PC, high speed internet, willing to buy a dedicated HardDrive (if there was a lower fee apparently). Point being, same as prev post, if you are willing to spend all of this money for your tech fix, it makes no sense that you complain about an enabling fee. Hell, you should be grateful. For me at least, the BIG thing that would have made me want to upgrade from the 622 to new model xyz would have been a significant jump in storage space. NOW, that is not a worry. Dish has essentially allowed us to have unlimited storage space. NO CABLE CO's STB allow this. Direct's STB does NOT allow this (unless you dick around with streaming via a viiv pc). Imagine being able to NEVER has to buy a bluray or HDDVD release.....simply record it in HD and dump it. (oh wait, it's 1080i not 1080p.......opps, and hey, I just found my only reason to upgrade to new receiver xyz (1080p). 

I do GET your complaint w/dish....I just don't think it's financially based. Their business practice in this case, just seems a bit slimey. BUT, if this is your "thing", you've got to enjoy life and I would certainly think two twenties are not going to hold you back from having a digital jukebox of your favorate HD movies/tv shows of all-time.


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## mhowie (Sep 30, 2006)

lionsrule said:


> Anyone in here who has ANY financial education KNOWS that you never lease or rent anything. You do NOT rent an apartment, you do NOT rent/lease a car. You own,own,own.


Actually, those with a true financial education know that leasing/renting might make sense if the money freed up by pursuing such strategies enables one to come out ahead economically. Depending on the lease or rental terms, not to mention one's particular cash flow situation, leasing/renting could represent the superior choice.


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## lionsrule (Nov 25, 2003)

give me a specific, real world example.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

lionsrule said:


> You have basically made my point for me. You pay over $200/yr in rental fees? And you are concerned over a ONETimE $40 fee? How does that make any sense? Anyone in here who has ANY financial education KNOWS that you never lease or rent anything. You do NOT rent an apartment, you do NOT rent/lease a car. You own,own,own. Please don't give me the BS answer that "tech changes so if I buy a STB, I'll be sol". That is FLAT OUT B.S. I purchased my original 921 receiver. The amount I paid - the amount I sold it for was FAR less than the amount of monthly rental fees I would have paid. Now, with the 622's (and the fact that we already have mpeg, and NO hardware required upgrades are anywhere close) I have also purchased both of my 622's.
> 
> But I digress.....
> 
> ...


Ok let me ask you this then...

Renting a 622 costs me $18 a month ($6 rental + $6 DVR + $6 HD fee)

Say I buy my 622 100% then answer this this then:

1. Do I still have to pay a $6 DVR fee?
2. Do I still have to pay a $6 HD fee?
3. Do I still have to pay a $6 rental fee?

The answers are, of course, yes-yes-no so even if I buy the 622 I still have to pay a $12 a month rental fee - I just save the $6 fee.

Now answer this then... I am under the assumption that if you buy your own 622 that instead of paying a $6 a month rental fee you now pay a $6 a month reciever fee. Is this still correct? If so then you pay the exact same $$$ whether you buy or rent so buying is the way to go????

If I buy a 622 then Dish charges me $144 a year for no extra service
If I rent a 622 then Dish charges me $216 a year but I do not have to pay for the 622 up front.

Now my my math this extra $72 a year makes sense and I do not fault Dish for charging me $6 a month so they can recover their cost (more than made up in the first 18 months considering I had to come up with $199 up front!)

It's the "extra" $144 a year they charge that is 100% pure profit.

Now having said this your logic in saying that since I pay $216 a year to rent my 622 is so great that another $40 means very little. This I cannot figure out at all. Are you trying to say that as long as Dish screws me on so many bogus fees that adding another $40 means nothing?

What do you mean?

-JB

P.S. The "real" outrage should be from people who paid $500+ to own their 622 and have no issue with Dish still charging them all these fees


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## lionsrule (Nov 25, 2003)

On the 2 622's I OWN, I do NOT pay an "HD" fee. (you only pay an HD enabling fee if you do not subscribe to an hd package). Of course you pay a dvr fee, no way around that. I pay ONE "extra receiver fee". The first receiver on your account (if you OWn it) does not cost you anything extra (monthly fee).

My points are made in my previous posts, no point in rehashing. Again, bottom line, if you are spending time in these forums, then obviously this stuff is a BIG hobby for you. 

You've gotta spend money to have fun. A multi-m(b)illion dollar company like dish does NOT CARE if you want to be upset of $40. Me, I wanna have geek/tech fun.

Good luck on your moral higher ground....


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

lionsrule said:


> On the 2 622's I OWN, I do NOT pay an "HD" fee. (you only pay an HD enabling fee if you do not subscribe to an hd package). Of course you pay a dvr fee, no way around that. I pay ONE "extra receiver fee". The first receiver on your account (if you OWn it) does not cost you anything extra (monthly fee).
> 
> My points are made in my previous posts, no point in rehashing. Again, bottom line, if you are spending time in these forums, then obviously this stuff is a BIG hobby for you.
> 
> ...


You can call that extra $6 an enabling fee or any other name you want. If you buy your 622 then why does Dish have a right to charge you anything just because you do not feel like subscribing to HD???

I call it a fee because whether I pay the fee as a built in part of the $20 HD package or not you are still paying Dish $6.

So you can claim that you are not paying because you subscribe to the $20 HD package but I claim that the $6 fee is just a part of the $20 fee.

Let me ask you this.

You have one 622 on your account and you bought it.
I have one 622 on my account and I rent it.

You pay a $6 "account" fee + $6 DVR "because we can" fee + $6 HD fee
I pay a $6 "rental" fee + $6 DVR "because we can" fee + $6 HD fee

I paid $199 up front
You paid $500+ up front

S0 $300 has to be made up and yes after a few years you will save money but I fail to see how renting is so evil.

-JB


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## JohnL (Apr 1, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> Ok let me ask you this then...
> 
> Renting a 622 costs me $18 a month ($6 rental + $6 DVR + $6 HD fee)
> 
> ...


Jrb531,

1) You pay the DVR Fee unless you have the Everything package
2) You pay the HD enabling fee ONLY if you do NOT subscribe to the Dish HD package (again why would you NOT pay for the HD channels? Why pay 1-2 Thousand bucks for the display and not get the HD channels?)
3) Lease fee is accessed only to subscribers that do not purchase the receiver.

So whether you order the Dish HD package or not you only pay an additional $6.00 per month over purchasing the 622/722. With the 622/722 receivers' between 499-550 bucks it will take about 83 months (almost 7 years) to break even.

I don't see any reason or advantage to owning a 622 as within that 7 years, I'll probably want a new receiver, and any residual value of the 622 will be about ten percent of its purchase value by then.

I really can't rap my head around this I won't or can't pay the extra $20 bucks for the Dish HD channels. If you don't want HD then WHY DID YOU DROP 1-2 grand on the Display. Please don't say watching DVD's, any incremental PQ improvement from a regular DVD on a HD display isn't WORTH IT.

John


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

JohnL said:


> Jrb531,
> 
> 1) You pay the DVR Fee unless you have the Everything package
> 2) You pay the HD enabling fee ONLY if you do NOT subscribe to the Dish HD package (again why would you NOT pay for the HD channels? Why pay 1-2 Thousand bucks for the display and not get the HD channels?)
> ...


Who said I dropped $2000 on a display? I picked up a Toshiba CRT HD for $500 and it looks pretty nice on both SD and HD. Someday I will get a nice big screen.

The point is that the only reason buying your reciever is no longer a real option is because Dish adds so many made up BS fees to try and keep us from doing so because they make more money on these fees.

Without question the DVR fee was tacked on because the other guys were doing it and Dish figures they could get away with it. It's pure 100% profit with no service provided.

Now we have this $6 no-HD fee that is also a pure 100% profit as punishment for those who do not want to pay $20 for HD. Even if you buy the darn receiver!

The "rental fee" vs "service fee" had to be the scam of the century!

If it really costs Dish $5 a month to "service" you account then this would be on top of the rental fee correct?

The rental fee covers the cost of equipment so what does this have to do with the service fee? This so called service fee is, like the $6 no-HD fee, a punishment fee.

If you do not do what we want you to do we will add extra fees until you change your mind!

The only fee I find fair is a rental fee. If you do not buy your equipment it is fair to charge a reasonable monthly rental and I feel that $5 and $6 is very fair.

Everything else is a scam IMHO. If dish needs the extra revenue then raise the package prices and stop adding all these silly little fees!

-JB


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## JohnL (Apr 1, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> Who said I dropped $2000 on a display? I picked up a Toshiba CRT HD for $500 and it looks pretty nice on both SD and HD. Someday I will get a nice big screen.
> 
> The point is that the only reason buying your reciever is no longer a real option is because Dish adds so many made up BS fees to try and keep us from doing so because they make more money on these fees.
> 
> ...


JB,

Please tell me where is the BS fee?

1) DVR FEE; I understand the DVR fee as almost all integrated STB's (Cable/Satellite) with DVR functions have a fee. If you don't like it then don't bother with a DVR, personally the addition fee is WELL WORTH the COST.

2) HD Enabling fee; The Enabling fee is only so Dish can make back their hardware/installation investment in you if you do NOT pay for the HD package, but again the Enabling fee is only accessed to a Leased HD subscriber. In general Dish invested in excess of $600 for each New HD subscriber or existing Dish'n upgrade subscriber. It's not unreasonable for them to expect to make some sort of profit from their investment. Really the HD Enabling fee is to encourage you to get the HD package as the difference is $14.00 bucks. This looks like a deal to me, 39 Hd channels for that additional $14 over the HD Enabling fee. Which probably the reason they have the FEE, more or less expecting a 90 percent plus HD uptake rate.

3) Receiver Lease fee; The Lease fee is just that, again I don't see any reason for a provider, that hands out free or highly subsidized equipment with installation, to expect a separate revenue stream because it this.

As I said before owning a 622/722 receiver only saves you 6 bucks per month over purchasing. I'd rather have that money to investment in something else or even in the bank.

Dish, and for that matter DirecTV and Cable more or less have the same policies. THEY WANT TO MAKE A PROFIT WOULDN'T YOU? Call your Cable company and ask them if you can get a HD BOX without adding the HD channels or any addition fees, they will likely LAUGH out loud at you. The same goes for DirecTV.

If you analyze the Lease/Purchase costs, Dish is making about 13 percent gross on their lease versus a Receiver Sale. This is not the outrageous gouging you imply. Subtract Churn, hardware recovery, and Equipment losses, its likely less than a 10 percent net return on their investment. WOW, what a ripoff, NOT.

As is always the case if you want the latest and greatest you will pay EXTRA. Don't like it, then sell your HDTV display and forget it.

John


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

JohnL said:


> JB,
> 
> Please tell me where is the BS fee?
> 
> ...


What does Dish provide for the $6 DVR fee? Well worth it???? How do you figure? Well worth it to have a DVR yes... well worth WHAT for $6 a month. What service does Dish provide for that $6?

If you buy your 622 for $500 or $600 then why does Dish charge you a $6 fee per month if you do not want HD?

You seem to be looking at justifying these charges in the overall picture. Yes I love my DVR and cannot live without it. Does this mean that Dish can add any old charge on to a DVR and it's all fine and good because we all love DVRs?

Dish wants us all to pay an extra $20 for HD. At this time I do not want HD so it's ok to add punishment fees?

I fully understand that for 18 months I have to pay an extra $6 a month because I do not want HD so that Dish can recover the extra cost of the 622. After this 18 months or if I buy the 622 outright then this $6 fee is not only unjustified but WRONG!

I keep asking questions about what these fees pay for and you keep responding that DVR's are great and HD is great yadda yadda.

It matters not how great these things may very well be but Dish still has to justify in at least a small way why they charge what they do. I predict that someday all the providers will have to answer these questions and one of the main reasons they are not being held accountable are people such as yourself who come to their defense trying to say why Dish and the other distributors should be able to charge whatever they want whether they are providing an extra service or not.

-JB


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Didn't we already have this argument?


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

James Long said:


> Didn't we already have this argument?


And on more threads than this one!:lol:


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## JohnL (Apr 1, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> It matters not how great these things may very well be but Dish still has to justify in at least a small way why they charge what they do. I predict that someday all the providers will have to answer these questions and one of the main reasons they are not being held accountable are people such as yourself who come to their defense trying to say why Dish and the other distributors should be able to charge whatever they want whether they are providing an extra service or not.
> 
> -JB


JB,

Obviously you don't feel the fees are warranted.

This is fine with me. I suggest you sell your HD Display, and or drop Dish for another provider if you feel you are paying to much.

I love my HD Display, as well as being PROUD that I'm providing my Display with THE LARGEST currently available package of HD programing.

If I was your display I would go on Strike until I could tune more than 3-4 OTA HD channels. ;>)

John


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I am having deja vu all over again.

The bottom line is still the same old bottom line... if anyone feels like he is paying too much for Dish, then stop paying too much for Dish. Some folks seem so bent out of shape, that I can only figure at this point they like being angry and arguing, otherwise they would have walked away long ago.

There are lots of companies and services that I do not fee are worth the money... so I do not have those services! I do not get continually aggravated over them, instead I stop spending that money. Its a novel concept


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

Guys I know this has gone on and on. In my defense it does not start with me using copy and paste to start the very same tired questions.

To date only a single person has ever even tried to answer and I think it was HDMe who was the only one to come right out and say "they do it because they can"

I guess it just bugs me to no end for people to try and justify all these silly fees. 

Why does Dish charge us a DVR fee?
Why does Dish charge us a HD enabling fee?
Why does Dish charge an account fee when you do not rent?

If people would just accept "because they can" then we can lay this to rest. This came up once again in regard to the new "because we can" added to the list:

Why does Dish charge $40 to turn on the USB port?

"BECAUSE THEY CAN"

The fees suck and someday the government will investigate the Pay TV industry (for real LOL) and then they will have to answer. Until then please stop acting like you are on the Dish Payroll for the PR department.

If they thought we would accept $12 or $18 or $50 a month in rental fees they would charge that. If they thought people would pay $100 to turn on a minor USB feature then they would. It does not cost them $6 a month to maintain your account on a computer system. It does not cost them $6 a month for a DVR to errrr ummmm ROTFL NM  Once your 622 is paid for (either by outright buying it or at eh end of your 18 month commit) then the $6 a month no-HD fee is pure profit.

Saying how great and nobel Dish is because they screw us a tiny bit less than DTV or Cable... well that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside 

-JB


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> Guys I know this has gone on and on. In my defense it does not start with me using copy and paste to start the very same tired questions.
> 
> To date only a single person has ever even tried to answer and I think it was HDMe who was the only one to come right out and say "they do it because they can"
> 
> ...


What I don't get is why you insist that you're being screwed by dish? I agree they want your money and are apparantly getting it, but that doesn't makes them thieves who are sticking it to ya, it makes them a business. A business who's in business to make money, there's nothing wrong with that, it's thanks to such businesses most of us can put a roof over our heads, food on the table and yes programming on the tv. It also baffles me that you seem to think Dish or anyone for that matter owes you an explanation for the fees that Dish charges. This is just merely the way they have set up their business model and it seems to work for the most part, they're making money and we're getting tv at a price most of us seem to think is fair. Anyway I know my post isn't going to change your obsession with Dish's fees. If it makes you feel any better, yes, it's because they can.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Ok JB I think your point is understood. I guess I am curious where this leaves you. Are you paying the fees? Seems that you either have to do something or this whole thing is going to get real frustrating.
I for one am willing to accept some of the fees that I don't have control over. With others, I choose to not buy. No Microsoft Vista for me, XP works ok. I like the OSX revs that Apple puts out along with some of their new iLife and iWork so I am paying those fees to upgrade. Also buying a new iMac. I gave up long ago complaining about the price of gas here in California and I still drive a Suburban. 

..Doyle


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

tsmacro said:


> What I don't get is why you insist that you're being screwed by dish? I agree they want your money and are apparantly getting it, but that doesn't makes them thieves who are sticking it to ya, it makes them a business. A business who's in business to make money, there's nothing wrong with that, it's thanks to such businesses most of us can put a roof over our heads, food on the table and yes programming on the tv. It also baffles me that you seem to think Dish or anyone for that matter owes you an explanation for the fees that Dish charges. This is just merely the way they have set up their business model and it seems to work for the most part, they're making money and we're getting tv at a price most of us seem to think is fair. Anyway I know my post isn't going to change your obsession with Dish's fees. If it makes you feel any better, yes, it's because they can.


What I cannot understand is how you can sit here and say that Dish is operating like any other business.

Let's take the DVR fee for example

Maybe it's just me but when I am charged something the first question in my mind is "what am I getting for the fee"

Now you could deabte the amount of said fee but would you not at the very least assume you were getting something... anything for said fee?

Same goes for the no-HD fee for those who buy their 622. This does not trouble you in the least?

How about the "Rental" vs "account" fee? If you don't rent from us then we're going to add on the very same fee but call it something else.

So being screwed we are and just because the other guys do it does NOT make it right. Sure business is out to make a buck and as much as they can but in these examples they are charging us fees for NO service and people seem to want to defend this saying that it's somehow ok to charge us for nothing because the other guys are screwing us too.

Amazing!

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

DoyleS said:


> Ok JB I think your point is understood. I guess I am curious where this leaves you. Are you paying the fees? Seems that you either have to do something or this whole thing is going to get real frustrating.
> I for one am willing to accept some of the fees that I don't have control over. With others, I choose to not buy. No Microsoft Vista for me, XP works ok. I like the OSX revs that Apple puts out along with some of their new iLife and iWork so I am paying those fees to upgrade.  Also buying a new iMac. I gave up long ago complaining about the price of gas here in California and I still drive a Suburban.
> 
> ..Doyle


I have a rented 622 with the basic package. I pay the $6 DVR fee and the $6 no-HD punishment fee. I have a 501 with no DVR fee that I will not upgrade because of the DVR fee.

I have no choice. The lessor of multiple evils because DTV is worse and I do not think I have to say anything about Comcast 

FIOS has been held up in Chicago due to the city wanting their usual bribes and cable fees.

Has this affected me? Yes... I cancelled HD and dropped to the lowest package. I'd love to have HD but I'm not willing to pay $20 a month on top of the core packages.

As other can attest... I only want 5 channels + locals but Dish has made sure that the 5 channels I want are spread out on all four packages (3 basic and HD) so those 5 channels would end up costing me $20 per if I was to fall for the way Pay TV wants us to think.

The day "anyone" offers another option I'm gone. On a more positive note I love the 622 and would get a second one to replace my 501 but not for another $12 on top of the $18 I already pay to rent the first box.

$30 each month for 2 622's before I pay for even one channel of service? No friggin way and I looked into buying the 622's but then I pay the same fees.

All to watch a handfull of shows spread out on 5 channels!

-JB


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## JohnL (Apr 1, 2002)

jrb531 said:


> The day "anyone" offers another option I'm gone. On a more positive note I love the 622 and would get a second one to replace my 501 but not for another $12 on top of the $18 I already pay to rent the first box.
> 
> $30 each month for 2 622's before I pay for even one channel of service? No friggin way and I looked into buying the 622's but then I pay the same fees.
> 
> ...


JB,

First off Dish is NOT the only company that has a say as to which core packages the channels land in.

Again one more time there is NO HD Enabling fee if you OWN the receivers, Purchase the Everything Pack NO DVR fee, own both receivers you would only pay the Extra Receiver Fee of $6.00.

Look Dish offers a service, with some fees. If you don't want the service or its too rich for your CHEAP wallet then drop it.

If enough people felt the same way Dish wouldn't be in business, but we all know Dish is attracting hundreds of Thousands of Net subscriber additions every quarter. If they weren't maybe Dish wouldn't have these fees, again go with what you want or won't pay for.

John


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> What I cannot understand is how you can sit here and say that Dish is operating like any other business.
> 
> Let's take the DVR fee for example
> 
> ...


Well it would be easy for Dish to make all those fees go away, all they'd have to do is abolish them all and then just charge more for the basic channel packages. But Dish has decided on a business model that gives you a little more breakdown in their bills and gives you some idea why they charge what they do. Lets see a DVR charge, why might that be? Well could it be that DVR's cost Dish more money to build and then continue to support? And pretty much you can do the same right down the line for other receiver fees, certain receivers cost them more money to maintain, so they've decided to make these receivers have additional fees rather than just spreading out the costs to all subscribers. A "penalty fee" for not subscribing to HD w/ a HD box? Well duh.....they want you to subscribe to the HD pack, that's what the receiver is for and there's still the costs to them in producing the box in the first place and continuing to support it, so why would you expect not to pay fee to have it? So how hard was that to figure out? I still don't see how Dish is doing anything different than any other business or how they're screwing anybody. But all the effort you've put into telling everyone about it makes me think it must be true. Don't worry i'm sure thanks to you the world will see the light before too long and Dish will rue the day they decided to screw you by charging you "fees"! :sure:


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

At this point, everyone wants a piece of the entertainment delivery business. Comcast bought up lots of small cable companies across the country in an effort to get control of the business. Along came Dish and Direct and they took a good chunk out of their business. They offered distant networks and locals to people in rural areas not serviced by cable. Comcast responded by bundling high speed internet. Direct carved out the NFL ticket and Dish is pushing heavily with increased HD content. Blockbuster did the same by dominating the local Video rental business until Netflix showed up. VOD and DVRs changed the way people watch. Soon you will see increased competition as the phone companies try to gain back that high speed internet capability and delivery of entertainment material. I think a lot of us would like to see a reasonably priced ala carte offering and maybe with the changes in the marketplace, that will happen. There are an awful lot of channels in my Dish 250 that I never tune to but have to subscribe to in order to get the channels I really want. The $12/mo for the 622 seems reasonable and I like the ability to easily record OTA HD. Not that I couldn't before but the user interface and guide on the 622 is much better than the PC card that I was using previously. So, it is worth the $12/month to me for those features. So, today I have to say they charge the fees because they can but tomorrow..... maybe they won't be able to. 

..Doyle


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

JohnL said:


> JB,
> 
> First off Dish is NOT the only company that has a say as to which core packages the channels land in.
> 
> ...


If you buy your 622 they still charge the $6 no-hd fee. They do not care if you own or rent. Call them up... I dare you and ask if you can add an owned 622 to your account with no HD 

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

tsmacro said:


> Well it would be easy for Dish to make all those fees go away, all they'd have to do is abolish them all and then just charge more for the basic channel packages. But Dish has decided on a business model that gives you a little more breakdown in their bills and gives you some idea why they charge what they do. Lets see a DVR charge, why might that be? Well could it be that DVR's cost Dish more money to build and then continue to support? And pretty much you can do the same right down the line for other receiver fees, certain receivers cost them more money to maintain, so they've decided to make these receivers have additional fees rather than just spreading out the costs to all subscribers. A "penalty fee" for not subscribing to HD w/ a HD box? Well duh.....they want you to subscribe to the HD pack, that's what the receiver is for and there's still the costs to them in producing the box in the first place and continuing to support it, so why would you expect not to pay fee to have it? So how hard was that to figure out? I still don't see how Dish is doing anything different than any other business or how they're screwing anybody. But all the effort you've put into telling everyone about it makes me think it must be true. Don't worry i'm sure thanks to you the world will see the light before too long and Dish will rue the day they decided to screw you by charging you "fees"! :sure:


They charge a rental fee for each box. If it costs so much to maintain a DVR then show that in the rental price. Right now it's $5 a month for no DVR and $6 a month for a DVR so they already charge more.

You're doing nothing more than trying to justify why Dish screws us. I hope they are giving you a discount for representing them on the forums 

I called Dish. I spoke to a supervisor and their "official" line is that I pay a no HD fee to cover all the HD channels that are not in the $20 HD package ROTFL!

I asked about what the DVR fee covers and they were not able to even tell me! I know Dish CS reps are not the brightest bulbs bit in this case they do not even have a cue-card answer. Does this not tell you something?

So DVR's are great. We all love them but you simple cannot place a charge on someone account for no other reason than "why not"

For crying out loud... people went crazy when Dish dropped the $5 everything discount but these other fees are ok?

Tivo charges a monthly fee for guide information otherwise there are no special fees just because it's a DVR.

We already pay for guide information as part of any package. There is no special guide info that Dish provides DVR people vs non-DVR people.

Want to know what happened? Well Tivo was charging $5-$6 a month so everyone else figured we would pay it with no questions.

Well Tivo actually has to hire someone and maitain a database of programing so while I do not think it really costs them $5-6 a month at least I can see the added cost.

I cannot see anything that DIsh provides that differs from the guide we already pay for. If it's an added fee for broken DVR's, development cost yadda yadda then these fees should only apply for rented DVR's and it should be added to the rental fee.

-JB


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

DoyleS said:


> At this point, everyone wants a piece of the entertainment delivery business. Comcast bought up lots of small cable companies across the country in an effort to get control of the business. Along came Dish and Direct and they took a good chunk out of their business. They offered distant networks and locals to people in rural areas not serviced by cable. Comcast responded by bundling high speed internet. Direct carved out the NFL ticket and Dish is pushing heavily with increased HD content. Blockbuster did the same by dominating the local Video rental business until Netflix showed up. VOD and DVRs changed the way people watch. Soon you will see increased competition as the phone companies try to gain back that high speed internet capability and delivery of entertainment material. I think a lot of us would like to see a reasonably priced ala carte offering and maybe with the changes in the marketplace, that will happen. There are an awful lot of channels in my Dish 250 that I never tune to but have to subscribe to in order to get the channels I really want. The $12/mo for the 622 seems reasonable and I like the ability to easily record OTA HD. Not that I couldn't before but the user interface and guide on the 622 is much better than the PC card that I was using previously. So, it is worth the $12/month to me for those features. So, today I have to say they charge the fees because they can but tomorrow..... maybe they won't be able to.
> 
> ..Doyle


I agree 100% so if it costs Dish $12 a month to maintain a 622 then charge $12 a month to rent it!

This would give me an incentive to buy the 622 and save $12 a month. The entire presetn system seems designed to try and remove any reason to own your own stuff.

You only save $6 if you buy your stuff and you still pay all the other fees. It's no secret why Dish does what they do but it still does not make it right. Payback is a b-tch and someday they will have to justify these costs. 

-JB


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

lionsrule said:


> ...
> I do GET your complaint w/dish....I just don't think it's financially based. Their business practice in this case, just seems a bit slimey. BUT, if this is your "thing", you've got to enjoy life and I would certainly think two twenties are not going to hold you back from having a digital jukebox of your favorate HD movies/tv shows of all-time.


I agree. The reason I started this thread was to protest the fee in principal. I could easily afford the fee myself -- and I think most people here with an HDTV could too. Instead, I'm voting with my wallet by not paying it.

Yes, it would be nice to have the feature but I have lived without it and can continue indefinitely.

Look at what happened with Apple's 8 GB iPhone when people 'voted' with their wallets -- the price dropped from $599 to $399 today!

If we can get enough people here to 'Just say no', we could see some fee reductions or eliminations from Dish in the future.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

tsmarco said:


> It also baffles me that you seem to think Dish or anyone for that matter owes you an explanation for the fees that Dish charges.


Wow.


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## ssmith10pn (Jul 6, 2005)

Whats the double secret method of getting Dish on the phone to request this service??

I have no idea what to select on their crappy phone menu.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Plug in a USB drive and call the special toll free number that appears on the screen!

(The tech chat gave the phone number of 888-241-2205.)


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## Moridin (Mar 22, 2005)

I'm sure this will be construed as horribly insulting, but having just finished watching Idiocracy (from my external hard drive archive, no less) I think I'm beginning to understand this thread a little better.


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## ssmith10pn (Jul 6, 2005)

James Long said:


> Plug in a USB drive and call the special toll free number that appears on the screen!
> 
> (The tech chat gave the phone number of 888-241-2205.)


Doh!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Moridin said:


> I'm sure this will be construed as horribly insulting, but having just finished watching Idiocracy (from my external hard drive archive, no less) I think I'm beginning to understand this thread a little better.


It has what plants need... electrolytes


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> You're doing nothing more than trying to justify why Dish screws us. I hope they are giving you a discount for representing them on the forums
> 
> -JB


Nah I was just offering some possible common sense explanations as to why Dish bills the way they do. But I can see how that would threaten your whole "Dish is screwing us" thing, so i'm not surprised you just blew it off by accusing me of representing them and then just repeated your same tired rant. But that's ok i've seen you post often enough to realize that you are very focused and single minded. Hopefully that serves you well in some areas of your life. In the end Dish charges what they do because it what makes them money and as long as they make money we get tv. Works out pretty good for me anyway. If I really felt they were screwing me i'd find somewhere else to spend my home entertainment budget as would many others i'm sure. For that matter if something better comes along i'll spend my money elsewhere, great concept, capitalism. Because in the end none of the fees matter. It's the bottom line that does, i've got x dollars to spend who gives me the best deal for those x dollars? And as long as I know what Dish charges fees and all I can figure out what that bottom line is.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> You're doing nothing more than trying to justify why Dish screws us. I hope they are giving you a discount for representing them on the forums


OK everyone, time to show your cards. Who here will admit that they work for Dish Network and have a vested interest?


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

I won't pay anything to be a beta tester. In fact I won't be a beta tester so I may never get this. Losing programs you thought you'd be able to keep forever isn't like beta testing a game!


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

HDlover said:


> I won't pay anything to be a beta tester. In fact I won't be a beta tester so I may never get this. Losing programs you thought you'd be able to keep forever isn't like beta testing a game!


I hear you. I lost most of my recordings shortly after this latest release with EHD support. It said 'Error 05' and they could not be played.

However, I am happy that they improved the pause / skip functions.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

JB said he would accept the statement that "Dish does it because they can". But even after it was said you continue the same statements ad infinitum. So what point is left to be made? The fees are there, one ether pays them or not. If you really feel that everyone is getting so screwed by these fee find a lawyer and start a class action suit.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

whatchel1 said:


> JB said he would accept the statement that "Dish does it because they can". But even after it was said you continue the same statements ad infinitum. So what point is left to be made? The fees are there, one ether pays them or not. If you really feel that everyone is getting so screwed by these fee find a lawyer and start a class action suit.


+1


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

I've accepted it. Have you? Instead of trying to pull straws out of a hat and come up with some logical reasons why they charge what they do why not also just say that most of the Dish fees are based on the "because we can" or to help the "illusion" that Dish is vastly cheaper because they spread out their fees in order to be able to advertise cheaper prices that, in reality, are not nearly as cheap as they would leave you to think. 

My "rants" may be old and tired... heck I admit that they are but while you may not agree 100% with what I say you have to admit that there is at least "some" validity in questioning some of these fees including this new $40 fee.

As far as reps from Dish posting on these forums I can say that I have no proof other than to say that if I was Dish I would sure as heck have at least one and possible many more at least monitoring these forums as they contain a small but very dedicated group of Dish customers who very much influence others. No I do not see black helecopters following me but there are reps from Dish here and since they have not announced their presence as "official" reps then we have to assume that they are here to monitor or to attempt to influence public opinion.

Do I have a one track mind? Well if you mean can I be a bit stubborn? Well I guess I can. Am I the only one being a bit stubborn here? Aside from one person in the past 6+ months every question I have asked goes unanswered aside from the usual "fanboy" answer of "DVR's are real cool so it's well worth giving Dish money even if they provide nothing for the money I give them" or "HD is real cool so it's ok if they charge a punishment fee if you buy your own 622 and are totally insane and do not want HD" ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I did not start participating in this thread until I read posts by more than a few people suggesting the following:

1. If you do not like the $40 fee or any of Dish's fees then you should leave Dish
2. If you do not like the $40 fee or any of Dish's fees then you are cheap
3. The "other guys" do the very same or worse so this means it's automatically ok for Dish to do the same
4. If you complain about any fees then you are just some kind of whacko LOL

I already stated that if given the chance that I would leave Dish over these fees. Right now the programmers are all screwing their customers the very same way so yes I stay with Dish because they do screw us a bit less. This does not make it ok and the first chance I get an option to switch to someone who screws us even less or not at all I will be gone.

Anything else I say will just be rehashing what I have already said so I'll stop. *everyone erupts in cheers* LOL

So keep paying those fees and counting those channels as our bills creep up and up while we still watch the same "hours" worth of programs each month. I'll see you in the next thread once they find yet another fee to add or increase.

"Thank you sir may I have another"

LOL

-JB


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

I hereby erupt in cheers! Was that really the last whine?

  :hurah:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Yes it was.

And a nice rant goes into the history of DBSTalk ... now back to your regularly scheduled discussions.


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