# Tech Guru Jim Louderbeck To Check Into HR20 Problems



## RichardS (Jan 2, 2007)

Hello,

I emailed Jim Louderback, the tech guru at Ziff-Davis Publishing (pcmagazine.com, ZDTV, etc.) regarding all the problems we have encountered with the HR20.

He is D* subscriber and a D* TiVo owner. He emailed me and said he was amazed with all the problems with the HR20. He stated that he and his staff would check into this. 

It will be interesting if he should decide to publicize the HR20 problems. He has the link to this forum.

This may lead to nothing but maybe a little negative publicity in the press will get D* to spend the time to really fix the problems instead of rolling out interim fixes.

Richard


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

RichardS said:


> Hello,
> 
> I emailed Jim Louderbeck, the tech guru at Ziff-Davis Publishing (pcmagazine.com, ZDTV, etc.) regarding all the problems we have encountered with the HR20.
> 
> ...


Um... why? The interm fixes are so that they don't wait until EVERYTHING is fixed. We're sitting here, working WITH the programmers, helping them as they help us, and you want to stir up the press against them?

How about telling this guy to stop in here and see how DirecTV is working with us to fix problems and work out bugs--TOGETHER?


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## hdfan01 (Feb 1, 2006)

RichardS said:


> Hello,
> 
> I emailed Jim Louderback, the tech guru at Ziff-Davis Publishing (pcmagazine.com, ZDTV, etc.) regarding all the problems we have encountered with the HR20.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure, No.... I am sure, your actions are not the kind of help HR20 users/owner need! This forum gets results. The negative talk likely from the press only adds to consumer Confusion.


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## RichardS (Jan 2, 2007)

Capmeister said:


> Um... why? The interm fixes are so that they don't wait until EVERYTHING is fixed. We're sitting here, working WITH the programmers, helping them as they help us, and you want to stir up the press against them?
> 
> How about telling this guy to stop in here and see how DirecTV is working with us to fix problems and work out bugs--TOGETHER?


I am willing to help out the programmers, but what about customers that purchase the HR20 who want something that WORKS and do not want to go through all of this?

Jim is a fair guy and it isn't my intention, as you put it, to "...stir up the press". I just think it is fair that before someone plunks down 299 dollars, that the consumer knows there are problems with the HR20.

I appreciate your opinion, but, in my opinion, consumers should know that these problems exist. And the fact that D* is working with current customers to resolve the problems may sway a potential customer to go ahead and order a HR20 anyway.

Richard


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I don't subscribe that "negative" press, or really any press for that matter, is going to make DirecTV work any faster..... heck as shown this past week, these guys are now working the weekends, late nights, ect... on the HR20.

But I also don't mind other publications comming in and checking things out.
Why? Honestly... I think the spontaneous quick "blog" world, is becoming the "voice" out there. And is not always telling the "entire" story.

So places like CNet, ZiffDaves, Home Theater, and other industry media sources... Do look at things from all angles for the most part... 

Honestly... I don't mind if people come in to see what is "really" going on... that the HR20 is being worked on, and progress is being made.


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## RichardS (Jan 2, 2007)

hdfan01 said:


> I'm not sure, No.... I am sure, your actions are not the kind of help HR20 users/owner need! This forum gets results. The negative talk likely from the press only adds to consumer Confusion.


I appreciate your opinion. Please see my response to Capmeister.

Richard


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

I get what you're saying, Richard, but your premise--that somehow getting a story done on the HR20's problems will get DirecTV to do more to fix it--is flawed. I think if you've been reading this site you'll see they're doing quite a lot. Even when I have been frustrated with their not prioritizing things important to me, I never for a moment doubted they weren't working on making the box better.


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## RichardS (Jan 2, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't subscribe that "negative" press, or really any press for that matter, is going to make DirecTV work any faster..... heck as shown this past week, these guys are now working the weekends, late nights, ect... on the HR20.
> 
> But I also don't mind other publications comming in and checking things out.
> Why? Honestly... I think the spontaneous quick "blog" world, is becoming the "voice" out there. And is not always telling the "entire" story.
> ...


Earl,

Jim Louderback is a D* customer and is a fair guy. My intentions are not to "slam" D*, but to give consumers information on the HR20 and that there are problems.

If he decides to publish any information, it will cover both sides. And it would be a boost to this forum if he mentions this web site.

Richard


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

RichardS said:


> Earl,
> 
> Jim Louderback is a D* customer and is a fair guy. My intentions are not to "slam" D*, but to give consumers information on the HR20 and that there are problems.
> 
> ...


Oh... I understand that... and agree with with you emailing him (in fact, I just emailed him myself, formally inviting him down to check us out).

I have seen his work... and don't doubt that he will be fair, and would accurately reflect what is going on.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Seems logical to me. Six months of ineffective software downloads (the latest RC has got 9-plus pages of "issues") is hardly exemplary from a CE product POV. Sure, what's done is done, but people still are cutting Directv way too much slack on a product that was not ready for the masses.

Yeah, they are trying to fix it. But as I read over the issue threads on 0x120, I see some people who have had little or no problems are now getting black screens and other serious issues.

This process could end next month, or it could end in June, or it could last until 2008 (check the R15 forums). Why not get as much pressure on Directv as possible? If for some reason, they can't get it done, people will find out much sooner this way. Guess I don't share the faith all the beta testers have in Directv getting this mess cleaned up sooner than later (but that's no secret).

My HR20 works most of the time, but the trick play still stinks (it's like watching still photos go by and it's impossible to manage easily during sporting events), among other issues that should have been fixed a long time ago. And they have yet to solve the "standby" = black screen problem, which has been around for the last 2-3 releases.

They are trying, no doubt, but seems like they are now in panic mode (two RCs within two days?). A little more pressure may result in even more resources applied to the situation, which can't be bad. A brighter spotlight certainly won't make them stop their efforts out of spite, because that move would not be good for them competitively.


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## RichardS (Jan 2, 2007)

Capmeister said:


> I get what you're saying, Richard, but your premise--that somehow getting a story done on the HR20's problems will get DirecTV to do more to fix it--is flawed. I think if you've been reading this site you'll see they're doing quite a lot. Even when I have been frustrated with their not prioritizing things important to me, I never for a moment doubted they weren't working on making the box better.


Capmeister,

I understand what you are saying. I should have left the last sentence out of my original post. I guess some of my frustration crept out!

Jim is a staunch D* customer and supporter. If Jim decides to publish anything, he will cover both sides. It is possible that he will mention this forum, and potential customers will see that D* is working to fix things. 
Richard


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> ... (the latest RC has got 9-plus pages of "issues")


That is an inaccurate reflection of the "issues".
If you read through that thread... you will see that those "9 pages" (there are actually more pages then that

Are not different issues... so it is not 180 different issues.

A lot of it is "chatter" that have nothing to do with an issue... or is trying to help someone out with an issue... or is an update to add more to a previously reported one.

Some are even the same issue, just a different channel.
Some are flat out the same issue.

So just because the "count of posts" are large... that is not an accurate reflection.

If 10,000 people tested the software... all find the same bug... and all report it... does that mean the software has 10,000 issues? or just 1

What the count does show, is just how intrested people are in trying to help fix the problems.

And yes... I have read through the thread, multiple times.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> They are trying, no doubt, but seems like they are now in panic mode (two RCs within two days?).


And that too is not an accurate reflection of what happened.

That "2nd" version offered... was in direct response to what was found by the first group of people on Sunday. During the day on Monday, they where able to address some of those issues found... and get that put together for that "2nd wave".

And just for the "record"... these are no longer "release candidates"....


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## oldschoolecw (Jan 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is an inaccurate reflection of the "issues".
> If you read through that thread... you will see that those "9 pages" (there are actually more pages then that
> 
> Are not different issues... so it is not 180 different issues.
> ...


Earl is right

The major problem I have seen and friends that have the same black screen lockup comes from 3 possible sources and there all from what I can tell it all stems from MPEG4 in my view.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is an inaccurate reflection of the "issues".
> If you read through that thread... you will see that those "9 pages" (there are actually more pages then that
> 
> Are not different issues... so it is not 180 different issues.
> ...


As a point of clarification, 9-plus means more than 9. I didn't say it was 180 issues, but the thread is called issues and it has generated a lot of pages. That says to me that the RC is not the "big fix" that seems to be promised in every RC. I would expect when that happens, the issues thread will have very few posts, and the discussion thread will be stuffed to the gills.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Looks to me like there are a lot of 'helpful' people in here trying to help in any way they can...


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And that too is not an accurate reflection of what happened.
> 
> That "2nd" version offered... was in direct response to what was found by the first group of people on Sunday. During the day on Monday, they where able to address some of those issues found... and get that put together for that "2nd wave".
> 
> And just for the "record"... these are no longer "release candidates"....


I applaud the two-day effort to fix the problems from the first whatever (release, build). But seems to me that 120 didn't fix much of anything.

As has been mentioned, I am sure Mr. Lauderback (or one of his reporters) will be fair to Directv in an assessment of the current situation, so the company has nothing to fear from him checking out the HR20 and its problems (if he decides to do so). So its all good, right?


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## red.bean.head (Feb 1, 2007)

RichardS said:


> Hello,
> 
> I emailed Jim Louderback, the tech guru at Ziff-Davis Publishing (pcmagazine.com, ZDTV, etc.) regarding all the problems we have encountered with the HR20.
> 
> ...


 What are you doing? Bad press may screw up all the work they are doing! It may go back to the point where we wait months for fixes. Interim fixes are better than waiting around. So far I have had zero issues with 11B & with 120. I think you messed up...:nono2: Calm down & stop stirring things up!


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## red.bean.head (Feb 1, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And that too is not an accurate reflection of what happened.
> 
> That "2nd" version offered... was in direct response to what was found by the first group of people on Sunday. During the day on Monday, they where able to address some of those issues found... and get that put together for that "2nd wave".
> 
> And just for the "record"... these are no longer "release candidates"....


"Panic Mode?" far from it... they are rolling out interim fixes that they have tested to people here on the boards making them available certain times of the day. There is no way they would release this stuff due to panicking, your hilarious!


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

red.bean.head said:


> "Panic Mode?" far from it... they are rolling out interim fixes that they have tested to people here on the boards making them available certain times of the day. There is no way they would release this stuff due to panicking, your hilarious!


Yeah, no way. Sure they are cool, sitting back relaxing over the situation.

FYI, the confined release/testing process has only been happening for the last month or so (formally), and some of the results have led to issues that haven't been in the past few national releases (BSOD and IKD come to mind). People have been reporting the BSOD bug since September.


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## Vinny (Sep 2, 2006)

Personally, the number of pages generated by the issues thread does not represent the anount of issues. It does represent the:

a) committment of all of us volunteering to become part of the solution;
b) detail of the post's down to the channel being viewed before a BSOD or other issue;
c) the length of the posts; which now include (in the signature) a description of our equipment and how it is interfaced with the HR20;
d) the dedication of all of us trying to diagnose possible solutions that might help someone who might be having a minor problem;
e) about 4 major issues....BSOD on power on; audio drop outs; loss of OTA stations and trick play problems.

Is the HR20 flawless...NO....has it become reliable as a DVR....YES.....can it get better....YES, with our help!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

red.bean.head said:


> "Panic Mode?" far from it... they are rolling out interim fixes that they have tested to people here on the boards making them available certain times of the day. There is no way they would release this stuff due to panicking, your hilarious!


Huh?
Not sure if you are agreeing with me... or disagreeing with me.


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## red.bean.head (Feb 1, 2007)

tstarn said:


> Yeah, no way. Sure they are cool, sitting back relaxing over the situation.
> 
> FYI, the confined release/testing process has only been happening for the last month or so (formally), and some of the results have led to issues that haven't been in the past few national releases (BSOD and IKD come to mind). People have been reporting the BSOD bug since September.


I never said they were "relaxing & cool" about the situation, just stating that they are taking a different approach with the HR20 compared to the R15. I am one of the lucky ones that has had a fairly good experience with my HR20. Have had it since November with very few issues. A buddy of mine reffered me here to check out what others are finding, including himself but I did realize how involved some of you are, its kind of funny...


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

In my opinion, the bottom line is, no matter how well the story is written, the complex nature of this product is in itself negative press towards D*.


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## red.bean.head (Feb 1, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Huh?
> Not sure if you are agreing with me... or disagreeing with me.


Sorry, i was actually replying to another post but for some reason replied to yours. I guess that mean looking Grizzly Avatar drew my attention


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## Igor (Jan 3, 2005)

DIRECTV can work within closed doors for long periods and then download new versions. Alternatively they can work closer with us  and use our feedback to improve features and fix others. 

The work closer attitude may be unique and is working for me, my HR20 is working as it should with version x120.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

red.bean.head said:


> Sorry, i was actually replying to another post but for some reason replied to yours. I guess that mean looking Grizzly Avatar drew my attention


 Okay...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Vitor said:


> DIRECTV can work within closed doors for long periods and then download new versions. Alternatively they can work closer with us  and use our feedback to improve features and fix others.
> 
> The work closer attitude may be unique and is working for me, my HR20 is working as it should with version x120.


Exactly...

Smaller-Frequent builds, in the CE... as things are fixed and corrected.
For a "community" that want'ss access to those, and is willing to "work" with them...

Will probably end up with "larger" build for those "regular" customers... with major steps, instead of baby steps.

And frankly.. .the user base here, finds things that "I" have never thought of. So even with the most sophisticated testing systems, there are just some things that are not going to be caught. More Eyes, More Hands, More combinations... help find things a lot faster.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Exactly...
> 
> Smaller-Frequenty builds as things are fixed and corrected.
> For a "community" that wants access to those, and is willing to "work" with them...
> ...


Sounds good. So we can expect this to all be a moot point soon? That will be great for everyone.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Exactly...
> 
> Smaller-Frequenty builds as things are fixed and corrected.
> For a "community" that wants access to those, and is willing to "work" with them...
> ...


To take this thought just a bit further: What we've been watching, IMHO, is a great and very unique collaboration developing. Unlike so many forums, we are helpful, thoughtful, and willing to work with DirecTV rather than fight. Because of who we are, we have overcome the natural fears any company has of working with a very vocal public in a public forum. DirecTV deserves tremendous credit for recognizing and giving us that trust. We, meaning both dbstalkers and DirecTV, all ROCK!

Normally, at this point, I'd say lots of this also is due to the efforts of Chris, Clint, Earl and the other mods, but that would just make Earl blush, so I won't say anything... 

Good job, everyone!
Tom


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

As a user of both of DirecTV's "horribly flawed" DVR's, all I can say is both of my R15's, and my HR20 do everything I ask them to do, just as advertised. I do not get missed recordings. I do not have to reset hourly or daily or weekly (or even weakly).

I certainly hope that anyone who researches these DVR's and publishes their findings and points of view make certain that they properly represent both sides of the story. There are happy DirecTV DVR users, lots and lots of them. There are well over one million, probably double that or more, R15's and HR20's in service, and there are tens or twenties, or maybe hundreds, of serious complainers, and many of those being people who intentionally try to push the units to the point of failure.

Is the HR20 the "perfect DVR"? No, of course not. Is the HR20 ready for "prime time", that being defined as satisfactory to 95% or more of the user base? I think so.

Carl


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

carl6 said:


> As a user of both of DirecTV's "horribly flawed" DVR's, all I can say is both of my R15's, and my HR20 do everything I ask them to do, just as advertised. I do not get missed recordings. I do not have to reset hourly or daily or weekly (or even weakly).
> 
> I certainly hope that anyone who researches these DVR's and publishes their findings and points of view make certain that they properly represent both sides of the story. There are happy DirecTV DVR users, lots and lots of them. There are well over one million, probably double that or more, R15's and HR20's in service, and there are tens or twenties, or maybe hundreds, of serious complainers, and many of those being people who intentionally try to push the units to the point of failure.
> 
> ...


Wow, 95% is your cutoff point? Pretty low, given the types of issues.

So, do you have a source for the 95%, btw? Perhaps that would be one thing a tech reporter could actually obtain for all of us...

Cheers,
Tom


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

carl6 said:


> As a user of both of DirecTV's "horribly flawed" DVR's, all I can say is both of my R15's, and my HR20 do everything I ask them to do, just as advertised. I do not get missed recordings. I do not have to reset hourly or daily or weekly (or even weakly).
> 
> I certainly hope that anyone who researches these DVR's and publishes their findings and points of view make certain that they properly represent both sides of the story. There are happy DirecTV DVR users, lots and lots of them. There are well over one million, probably double that or more, R15's and HR20's in service, and there are tens or twenties, or maybe hundreds, of serious complainers, and many of those being people who intentionally try to push the units to the point of failure.
> 
> ...


Interesting stats. Where did you get the information about the number of R15s and HR20s in the subscriber base? I'd love to see the source.

So there are up to two million subs using those two boxes, but only hundreds of people having problems? Uh-huh. Well, I'd say Directv looks really silly for spending all that money ("significant resources" according to Chase Carey, recently revealed in another post) trying to fix a box that was never really broken in the first place.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Yeah, no way. Sure they are cool, sitting back relaxing over the situation.
> 
> FYI, the confined release/testing process has only been happening for the last month or so (formally), and some of the results have led to issues that haven't been in the past few national releases (BSOD and IKD come to mind). People have been reporting the BSOD bug since September.





tstarn said:


> They are trying, no doubt, but seems like they are now in panic mode (two RCs within two days?). A little more pressure may result in even more resources applied to the situation, which can't be bad. A brighter spotlight certainly won't make them stop their efforts out of spite, because that move would not be good for them competitively.


Seems like they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If D* was waiting to release updates until they were fully tested, then people would be complaining that D* wasn't moving fast enough to correct the problems. So when D* moves to get RC's to us for quicker testing/trouble shooting people complain that they're moving too fast and are in panic mode..... :nono2:


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

say-what said:


> Seems like they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. If D* was waiting to release updates until they were fully tested, then people would be complaining that D* wasn't moving fast enough to correct the problems. So when D* moves to get RC's to us for quicker testing/trouble shooting people complain that they're moving too fast and are in panic mode..... :nono2:


I have never criticized Directv for sending out waves of downloads, my criticism is that they never owned up to there actually being a problem with their customers in the first place, the downloads seemed to cause as many issues as they fixed in the early efforts, and their business decision to release the HR20 before it was ready to go created a lot of ill will with subs.

I used the word panic because I believe top management is finally putting the pressure on the programming folks and voicing great concern about get the thing fixed, hence, the panic idea. That wasn't the case back in September-October, when the problems were just as annoying, etc. They should have devoted the same significant resources, strategy way back in September, when the HR20 debuted as a flawed product.


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## 4DThinker (Dec 17, 2006)

Consider that not every owner of an HR20 knows they can find this site for the wonderful help and info. I know three owners who don't even have a computer at home.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Capmeister said:


> Um... why? The interm fixes are so that they don't wait until EVERYTHING is fixed. We're sitting here, working WITH the programmers, helping them as they help us, and you want to stir up the press against them?
> 
> How about telling this guy to stop in here and see how DirecTV is working with us to fix problems and work out bugs--TOGETHER?


No offense, but WHAT interim fixes? How many versions now and how many months and none of the major issues are better. I still hate to reset my box every couple of days and have about a 60% success rate on shows that actually record and are watchable...


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

4DThinker said:


> Consider that not every owner of an HR20 knows they can find this site for the wonderful help and info. I know three owners who don't even have a computer at home.


Another very important point that is completely lost in this entire situation.


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## jacobms1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Regardless of all this. I like my new HR20 (even with the problems). Although I do have to admit this is the first time I've paid to be someones beta tester. This thing should have been kept under wraps for a little more QA before release. Just my .02


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

jacobms1 said:


> Regardless of all this. I like my new HR20 (even with the problems). Although I do have to admit this is the first time I've paid to be someones beta tester. This thing should have been kept under wraps for a little more QA before release. Just my .02


I quess you were not around when everyone on this site was screaming for D* to release the HR20. :lol:


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

lwilli201 said:


> I quess you were not around when everyone on this site was screaming for D* to release the HR20. :lol:


You were around for that? You must have done a lot of lurking, because your join date is 12/22/06.

The majority of people here screaming about their non-working HR20s for the past six months never heard of DBSTalk.com before they got one (and then Googled "HR20" and luckily found this site).


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

To me, sending a request to Jim Louderbeck to have him "Check Into HR20 Problems" represents an unnecessary slap in the face for D*. I think the recent Cutting Edge (CE) releases represent a great partnership between this site and the D* software engineers who are trying to squash the bugs as fast as they can. 

More "heat and light" on the issue is not going to get it resolved any faster. Have you read "The Mythical Man Month"? You can't just throw more resources at something like this and expect faster results. The time required to bring additional software engineers up to speed enough to have it be safe to have them altering code of this complexity would, if anything, slow down the resolution of issues.

Our best bet for rapid resolution of the issues is the new CE forum established on this site. There, people can test scenarios that D* could not possibly test.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Another thing...

I used to watch Jim Louderbeck's show way back in 1998. I recall that I was usually quite tense when watching his show as he was frequently incorrect in the information he was presenting to the viewers. He would not be high on my list of true "Tech Gurus". he was always entertaining, just not technically accurate.

Now, I'll admit I haven't seen or read anything from him recently. So it is possible he has improved over the years.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

brittonx said:


> Another thing...
> I used to watch Jim Louderbeck's show way back in 1998. I recall that I was usually quite tense when watching his show as he was frequently incorrect in the information he was presenting to the viewers. He would not be high on my list of true "Tech Gurus". he was always entertaining, just not technically accurate.
> Now, I'll admit I haven't seen or read anything from him recently. So it is possible he has improved over the years.


Ditto, 
Now that you've made me remember him on TV, lots of show, & smile, but not much "go" for me, but then what do I know, I was only working on the stuff, and not "A reviewer" on TV. Hands on verses mouth.


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## robnaud (Jan 14, 2007)

tstarn said:


> I have never criticized Directv for sending out waves of downloads, my criticism is that they never owned up to there actually being a problem with their customers in the first place, the downloads seemed to cause as many issues as they fixed in the early efforts, and their business decision to release the HR20 before it was ready to go created a lot of ill will with subs./QUOTE]
> 
> Whether they've ever "owned up to" by your standards, I'd have to say, based on what I've seen, they aren't denying that there are problems.
> 
> ...


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## bayareamtnbiker (Jan 30, 2007)

The squeakiest wheels get the grease in this world. I used to manage a half dozen major software suppliers at a time. They all each had one top trouble shooter whose time was a very scarce company resource. This person could solve problems in a day that a team of others hadn’t solved in a month, or at least they quickly lay out the truth for what could/couldn’t be done with software and the existing hardware. Management decides, based on the squeakiest wheel theory, where to apply the top trouble shooter, who, surprise!, doesn’t like the drudgery of fixing nits and mistakes on products that have been out for a year, i.e. grunt work.

From my suppliers, I would get this top talent or else force them to get a competent outside expert by screaming and hollering louder than their other demanding customers – internal or external. 

I hope we thousands of customers have the top trouble shooters and resources from D*. It can’t hurt and is only fair to have our predicament known to the market. HR20 performance is still abysmal, although, when not glitching, it has moments of brilliance. 

The forum, feedback, test drops, etc. are all good, but let’s not kid ourselves into believing that a device like this might not be debugged more quickly, if full resources are applied.


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## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

Why is everyone freaking out about someone who might write a story about the current state of the HR20? Let the guy write his story before you get all up in arms about how it is a slap in the face of D*. For better or worse, D* will reap what they sow.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

My opinion, I think you guys are being a little hard on the original poster.

I don't believe his intention is to force or push D* into fixing the HR20 "faster".
I don't believe his intention is to belittle the CE beta testing program.

I believe his intention is simply to educate the unsuspecting consumers who aren't electronics GEEKS like the rest of us, because after all, that's precisely what the people surfing here are, whether you like that term or not!!

It's not DirecTV's job to educate their customers before buying because it's their JOB to sell their equipment and programming services. When someone asks them "Can I buy a high def dvr?", do you think the CSR is going to say "Yes, you can, but you might not want to because the one expensive receiver we sell that can do this currently has some bugs that we and others are working very hard to fix". Noooo, that CSR is going to say "Yes, for $299, and your going to love it"!

Since the inception of the television (and the radio beforehand), that is where most people have been trained their whole lives to get their supossedly unbias information from (no matter whether that info is right or wrong, lol, but that's a different story). They have been trained to listen to "the media".

The people in this and other forums cannot educate people who 1) don't know we are here to help answer questions and 2) don't even have internet access. Not everyone in the world has moved into the 21st century yet. My parents are in their 70's, both had jobs that required using pc's, yet they both can still barely check their email. They have zero understanding of how to search for any information they seek.

Let the media do their job.
Honestly, I'm shocked this hasn't made the news yet.
Well, lol, actually I'm not surprised at all ... because D* PAYS THE MEDIA.
We only hear what the media WANTS us to hear, and don't ever forget that.
:eek2:

*Now for those who are going to jump on me*, be careful, because I fully support the efforts of DirecTV and I am thrilled that they are working with this forum. What they are doing is basically unprecedented as very few large corporations would even think of engaging and beta testing in this highly public arena. They showed their super huge kahunas by beginning a beta program here. Hopefully this will work out in the long run and that other companies will someday follow in their footsteps. I am grateful that I have an opportunity to help and that our consumer level ideas can really be heard by the people doing the actual programming.

D* is not going to remove the beta program because of some news story as long as the story doesn't make a mockery of this forum. D* finally realizes that we CAN AND WILL help them achieve their (and our) goal which is to develope the best damn dvr on the market.


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## alv (Aug 13, 2002)

Educating people to the risks involved in leasing this box is a good thing. So are the efforts here to improve it. Both can coexist.


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## Dave_S (Jan 7, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Guess I don't share the faith all the beta testers have in Directv getting this mess cleaned up sooner than later (but that's no secret)


If this is the case, why do you stay with the product? If the product sucks, and it won't be fixed (in your opinion), why not get rid of it and move on? What do you want from Directv? A written personal apology from the President of Directv stating "Tom was right the HR20 sucks and we are incompetent"? I don't get it, you are constantly saying you don't think they can fix it, but you hang around dispersing negative energy in almost every thread. If I felt the way you did, I would take action and move on. It is apparent to me that Directv is making a serious attempt to fix this thing, whether or not they will be successful, who knows? But I do give them (and folks like Earl) credit for trying.


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## alv (Aug 13, 2002)

Dave_S said:


> If this is the case, why do you stay with the product? If the product sucks, and it won't be fixed (in your opinion), why not get rid of it and move on? What do you want from Directv? A written personal apology from the President of Directv stating "Tom was right the HR20 sucks and we are incompetent"? I don't get it, you are constantly saying you don't think they can fix it, but you hang around dispersing negative energy in almost every thread. If I felt the way you did, I would take action and move on. It is apparent to me that Directv is making a serious attempt to fix this thing, whether or not they will be successful, who knows? But I do give them (and folks like Earl) credit for trying.


Maybe by getting an HR20 he has a commitment. That is what irks me. Right now I can be patient because I still have a reliable HR10 and use the HR20 for overflow and when two tv's are used. If the HR20 is still unreliable when the new HD content comes in a few months, I will want out of my commitment. Paying to leave because this box is buggy is just wrong!


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Dave_S said:


> If this is the case, why do you stay with the product? If the product sucks, and it won't be fixed (in your opinion), why not get rid of it and move on? What do you want from Directv? A written personal apology from the President of Directv stating "Tom was right the HR20 sucks and we are incompetent"? I don't get it, you are constantly saying you don't think they can fix it, but you hang around dispersing negative energy in almost every thread. If I felt the way you did, I would take action and move on. It is apparent to me that Directv is making a serious attempt to fix this thing, whether or not they will be successful, who knows? But I do give them (and folks like Earl) credit for trying.


If you read my posts, you know I don't have the serious issues others have with my HR20, which I consider to be just pure luck at this point. Okay, here's my "helpful" post towards getting it fixed. The REW function freezes for 4-5 seconds when used at 1x. When I hit REW, the picture stays on frozen, so you have to guess where you are in the process. Now, that would seem to be a pretty basic DVR function, no? Well, here we are in February, and Directv still can't get that basic functionality working. Gee, I wonder what I base my doubt on?

I have never seen so many people shed so many crocodile tears over a mega-corporation's screw up. Hey, if you want to feel sorry for DIrectv, fine. I expect when this is all over, whenever that is, Directv owes its subs who have suffered through this some sort of giveback beyond what they have done. This is not the way to win the hearts and minds of subscribers.

I'm sure Directv would not agree with your idea that everyone who has had issues with the HR20 jump ship to another provider. Just a hunch. And truth is, if this is still an unstable product in May-June, I probably will look for an alternative. FIOS? Dish? Not sure. But I probably won't be alone.

Dispensing negativity? How about Directv dispensing negative vibes with its poor product launch? And you claim they have admitted in public they are having a problem. I'd love to see that statement. Sending mega downloads is an admission, of sorts. But they haven't made mention of it to their overall sub base as far as I know. Wouldn't that have been a fair strategy?


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

tstarn said:


> I applaud the two-day effort to fix the problems from the first whatever (release, build). But seems to me that 120 didn't fix much of anything.


It fixed my guide slowness (it was terrible) and guide tearing problems (though to be honest I didn't even think about tearing until people mentioned it here).


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

ouijal said:


> Why is everyone freaking out about someone who might write a story about the current state of the HR20? Let the guy write his story before you get all up in arms about how it is a slap in the face of D*. For better or worse, D* will reap what they sow.


I think what annoyed me--and Richard admitted he perhaps should have left this part out--was the line about how now there was going to be something that would force D* into taking action and that their incremental fixes were a bad thing. He was talking to the people who friggin' begged for incremental, frequent fix releases so we could help them troubleshoot the code. What we'd fought to build with D* had just been dismissed.


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## jbci (Jan 29, 2007)

I don't understand the mentality here. Since when is it up to the consumer to fix the issues of a mass produced item that a company SELLS for profit??? Are you people getting paid?

The Emperor has No Clothes should be the title of Mr. Louderbeck's article.


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Seems logical to me. Six months of ineffective software downloads


That statement is simply false and baseless. Just because not every problem has been fixed for every person does not justify that kind of remark. What would you be saying if they had not released the HR20 yet on the grounds they wanted to work out all the bugs before making it available to the public. Thought so.


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

jbci said:


> I don't understand the mentality here. Since when is it up to the consumer to fix the issues of a mass produced item that a company SELLS for profit??? Are you people getting paid?
> 
> The Emperor has No Clothes should be the title of Mr. Louderbeck's article.


We are not fixing anything. We are simply reporting problems in the hopes of speeding up the process of the software engineers getting them fixed. Is it always necessary to get paid for helping with something?? I wish the things would have been perfect when released. The fact is they were not. Many of us have decided to help out rather than just rant and rave over it.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

jbci said:


> I don't understand the mentality here. Since when is it up to the consumer to fix the issues of a mass produced item that a company SELLS for profit??? Are you people getting paid?
> 
> The Emperor has No Clothes should be the title of Mr. Louderbeck's article.


It's not up to us, and in a perfect world the HR20 would have been perfect straight out from the first day. But that's not what happened. Corporations take calculated risks. When their people come and say "it's not really ready," the suits say "too bad--we need this out or it looks bad" or whatever, and a not-quite-baked product goes out the door. Should DirecTV have to pay for that? They are--it's costing extra time with CSR's and a lot of annoyed customers.

But here's how I look at this:

1. I like DirecTV. They sell me a good service, don't charge me a DVR fee PER DVR like everyone else, allowing me to enjoy 4 DVRs in my house.

2. I love my Tivos, but the HR20, conceptually, is better. It's faster, it has nifty things like a fast 30sec slip (so I can see what I'm missing), it has Picture in Guide and menu, which i like, it has fast delete (dash-dash) and overall I find it to be a smarter product. Now, it has the benefit of being newer. And it has some things I don't care for (I want dual live buffers and closed captioning on 1xFF), and it still has a lot of issues. But I can see the polished stone that can come from it. And it's way prettier than Tivo to me.

3. I can complain and ask for rebates and refunds from DirecTV and just wait for them to eventually fix this thing--which WILL be their new standard HD DVR for some time--or I can help make it better. Even when I've been very frustrated (because I saw NO improvment on closed captioning until recently), I didn't want a bunch of money from D*, or to rake them over the coals. What I really REALLY wanted was the box working better--and I'm seeing that, and it fills me with hope and friggin' glee because I am close and closer to moving this out of my office and into the living room.

This box as nice bells and whistles. The bells are a bit out of tune and the whistles miss a few notes. Rather than complaining and tossing tomatoes at the stage, I'd rather give constructive criticism and feedback and have a better working box sooner. I want this box to be prefect because I can see the potential. I'm self interested and want it to work better for ME. Sue me. I'm gonna help make this better so long as I see D* working to do the same. I do.


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

tstarn said:


> If you read my posts, you know I don't have the serious issues others have with my HR20, which I consider to be just pure luck at this point. Okay, here's my "helpful" post towards getting it fixed. The REW function freezes for 4-5 seconds when used at 1x. When I hit REW, the picture stays on frozen, so you have to guess where you are in the process. Now, that would seem to be a pretty basic DVR function, no? Well, here we are in February, and Directv still can't get that basic functionality working. Gee, I wonder what I base my doubt on?
> 
> I have never seen so many people shed so many crocodile tears over a mega-corporation's screw up. Hey, if you want to feel sorry for DIrectv, fine. I expect when this is all over, whenever that is, Directv owes its subs who have suffered through this some sort of giveback beyond what they have done. This is not the way to win the hearts and minds of subscribers.
> 
> ...


I sense much anger in you. A path to the dark side, that is.


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## BuckeyeNut (Dec 3, 2006)

Working late and weekends to get this box working as it should is something they should have been doing long ago, although it doesn't excuse them of releasing this problematic piece of equipment. They should do whatever it takes to fix a somewhat lemon of a product to keep their consumer relationship strong.
I just don't understand the defend D* mentallity many folks have about this. As I appreciate the piece mealed incremental fixes, but these issues should have all been taken care of Pre- Release of the product. I mean alot of the issues are major. I get audio dropouts, heavy pixelations, lost recordings, BSOD,etc...
If we had to RBR our PC's/Mac's as often as we RBR our HR20's we would not be so patient I would guess.
It's just frustrating to pay the money for this unit with expectations of recording HD only for it to be a well below par product that doesn't perform as advertised.

Here's hopes to D* getting this mess fixed once and for all as the patience is wearing thin.​


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Jon D said:


> That statement is simply false and baseless. Just because not every problem has been fixed for every person does not justify that kind of remark. What would you be saying if they had not released the HR20 yet on the grounds they wanted to work out all the bugs before making it available to the public. Thought so.


I'd say they made a very prudent business decision.

They had to release it, ready or not, for business reasons (they were worried about losing subs to competitors who already had a working HD DVR, no matter how "inferior"). Wait. They already had a working HD DVR, but it didn't fit into their MPEG4 plans, so they made a decision.

Now, they are paying a steep price (money and customer goodwill) by continuing to expend resources "on the fly" trying to get it fixed. They don't really have a choice any more. But again, this is a piece of consumer electronics hardware that was SUPPOSED to work. It's not some esoteric experiment in high-tech. Actually, that's what is has turned into, but that wasn't by design.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Jon D said:


> I sense much anger in you. A path to the dark side, that is.


You are mistaking disgust for anger. Not angry at all. Just disgusted with a major company that treated its customer base, a high-paying part of its customer base, like a bunch of lab rats. Now, they are trying to make amends, but my opinion is the motivation is hardly altruistic. It's all about the Benjamins.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Jon D said:


> That statement is simply false and baseless. Just because not every problem has been fixed for every person does not justify that kind of remark. What would you be saying if they had not released the HR20 yet on the grounds they wanted to work out all the bugs before making it available to the public. Thought so.


False and baseless? Not every problem? How about basic FF and REW functionality? I didn't check, but I'd guess nearly every download had some sort of release note on fixing those two basic functions. Not sure about you, but mine have changed so many times (from okay to bad back to okay back to bad) it's making my head spin. Note: It's never been really good.

You're right. I'm going to jump over to the issues thread and post that one. I'm sure they have never seen complaint that before in the Directv programming lab.

Why is everyone so defensive when it comes to Directv? Except for the major sports packages, I have every possible thing you can buy from them. I am an A+ customer, and have never missed a payment. But this time, they don't deserve all this sympathy. They certainly didn't have any initially when they leased this box to an unsuspecting customer base. Some people believe they had no idea it wasn't ready. If that's the case, they should have been in this "attack" mode a week after it came out. Serious problems were present from day one.


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## k2ue (Mar 8, 2004)

Capmeister said:


> I get what you're saying, Richard, but your premise--that somehow getting a story done on the HR20's problems will get DirecTV to do more to fix it--is flawed. I think if you've been reading this site you'll see they're doing quite a lot. Even when I have been frustrated with their not prioritizing things important to me, I never for a moment doubted they weren't working on making the box better.


Why are so many in denial of human nature? You see it in your own job situations. I design similar products and the people dynamic is all too familiar:

You have a product, designed by a team, and it has problems upon release. The _team_ would like to fix their own problems, thereby at least getting credit for the fixes, mitigating the sting of the original product problems on their careers and reviews. But that same motivation also makes them want to minimize the problem and their estimates of what is required to fix it, so as to keep the problem "in the family", and let the problems look small and the fixes look big. This may well be the best course if the problems are modest. But if they are large the _customer's_ best outcome may be in the problem being taken away from those who blew it in the first place (and the methodology that got them there) and given to an emergency squad with more money and resources than were previously committed -- to save the company's face.

Why do people clearly see the stumblers and incompetents in their own offices, but assume electronics companies are full of white coated & wise rocket scientists from a 1950's movie???

I no longer have a dog is this fight, but I do live in the product development world, and I think the view of many on how it really works places more confidence in the system than is justified. An engineering team that is brilliantly troubleshooting with wisdom that would make Sherlock Holmes proud will not be upset by visibility. Ass-coverers will.


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## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

I just don't get it.

I like my HR20. It works. I've had this box since October 2006 with no real problems. It's faithfully recorded everything I've asked it to. OTA works great. Each new download does bring improvements to speed, menus, trick play, etc.

My HR20 has been very reliable.

I realize that not everyone is in this boat. But I really wish that people would realize that not everyone has an HR20 that is a POS!

I'm really tired of these threads that continually bash D*, the HR20, and maybe even Earl.

If you hate your HR20 so much, go with Cable, FIOS, Dishnetwork, or whatever else may be available in your area.

To be fair, I don't use my HR20 to it's max potential like some of you do. I record and playback maybe four programs a week. I've barley tapped the hard drive's storage capacity.

Anyway.....*sorry for the rant*......but I feel better now.:grin:


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Jon D said:


> I sense much anger in you. A path to the dark side, that is.


I guess you couldn't find that public statement by Directv admitting the HR20 has been a problem product? You did say that, no? Funny how you make a statement, I ask you for evidence, and you come up with that weak "I sense much anger" comment. Again, no anger here. Just disgust and outrage that a company treated its customers so badly at the outset of a seriously problematic product launch. Apart from all the credits they were dispensing like candy, that is. They gave out so many free HR20s because they thought it would mollify people. It didn't. I would have rather paid the full price and had it working from the start.


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

k2ue said:


> ..........
> 
> But if they are large the _customer's_ best outcome may be in the problem being taken away from those who blew it in the first place (and the methodology that got them there) and given to an emergency squad with more money and resources than were previously committed -- to save the company's face.
> 
> An engineering team that is brilliantly troubleshooting with wisdom that would make Sherlock Holmes proud will not be upset by visibility. Ass-coverers will. .....


D* mngmnt made a "bad" decision dumping TIVO and taking DVR development "in house" to people who were/are not upto the task! They made a "bad" decision forcing release of a product that wasn't ready to be released! 
6 months after the release they are still trying to fix the problems!

*Everybody is covering their asses!*

Any and all "publicity" about the HR20 is a good thing! 
It may force D* to stop covering it's ass and commit the resources needed, be it money or people to resolve the issues soon!


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> I just don't get it.
> 
> I like my HR20. It works. I've had this box since October 2006 with no real problems. It's faithfully recorded everything I've asked it to. OTA works great. Each new download does bring improvements to speed, menus, trick play, etc.
> 
> ...


Tired of people complaining about a product that isn't reliable/working for them, as it says on the box? Don't read those posts/threads. Make sense, no?

Is it possible to hate a piece of electronic equipment? Suppose so. It is possible to feel cheated and somewhat deceived by a large company that "leases" you a piece of equipment that doesn't work as advertised and, despite six months (and counting) of chances to get it working, still hasn't delivered? I'd say so.

Glad yours is working, however. That's good news. I don't believe I've seen anywhere someone has claimed that "everyone" has an HR20 that is a POS. But plenty of people (at least enough to have Directv scrambling to find a universal fix) have voiced that opinion, here and in other online places.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

cawgijoe said:


> I just don't get it.....
> 
> If you hate your HR20 so much, go with Cable, FIOS, Dishnetwork, or whatever else may be available in your area.


Easier said than done since you are locked into a two year commitment.


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

cawgijoe said:


> I just don't get it.
> 
> I like my HR20. It works. I've had this box since October 2006 with no real problems. It's faithfully recorded everything I've asked it to. OTA works great. Each new download does bring improvements to speed, menus, trick play, etc.
> 
> ...


I have a stable HR20, some problems here and there, not as much as most and certianly not enough to flee to another provider....but lets face it, there are people having significant problems. Telling them to go to cable is not the answer. Forcing D* to solve the problems and make the HR20 the product it has the potential to be, makes a better DVR and a better "service provider" (D*) for *you & me!!*


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Seems logical to me. Six months of ineffective software downloads (the latest RC has got 9-plus pages of "issues") is hardly exemplary from a CE product POV. Sure, what's done is done, but people still are cutting Directv way too much slack on a product that was not ready for the masses.
> 
> Yeah, they are trying to fix it. But as I read over the issue threads on 0x120, I see some people who have had little or no problems are now getting black screens and other serious issues.
> 
> ...


WOW! Was going to post almost the same thing.

February 18? Is the 6 month mark. I know now a day if it can be updated later it will go out with bugs. They are in it for the money. It's really not the guys behind the HR20 that put all the work into it. It's the money hungry higher ups. The programmesr I bet knew that the HR20 was not ready.

Maybe I still live in the old days. When you take something home and out of the box. IT SHOULD WORK but, those days are gone. It's all about the money. No one even said "Thank you!" anymore. They don't care about you!


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## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

iceman2a said:


> I have a stable HR20, some problems here and there, not as much as most and certianly not enough to flee to another provider....but lets face it, there are people having significant problems. Telling them to go to cable is not the answer. Forcing D* to solve the problems and make the HR20 the product it has the potential to be, makes a better DVR and a better "service provider" (D*) for *you & me!!*


I agree with you, however if I was having major issues with my HR20 and could not get the satisfaction that I was looking for, you can bet I would look at other options. FIOS was just installed last week on my street.

Another member here did bring up a very good point that I did not think about, thank you.....there is that 2 year committment........


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## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

raott said:


> Easier said than done since you are locked into a two year commitment.


Absolutely right and I forgot about that.....probably because I'm happy with my HR20........


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

jbci said:


> I don't understand the mentality here. Since when is it up to the consumer to fix the issues of a mass produced item that a company SELLS for profit??? Are you people getting paid?
> 
> The Emperor has No Clothes should be the title of Mr. Louderbeck's article.


^^^ No they are raising their rates!!



Everyone that help out *should* get paid or even a "Thank You"


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

An article in a major magazine might be the kick in the ass Directv needs to realize this has to be fixed much quicker. We have already paid for our receivers, but, if hundreds or thousands of potential customers read this possbile column and decide not to pay the lease fee of an HR20 and possibly leave Directv because they want HD and a DVR then the company loses money. Guess what the only thing Directv cares about, turning a profit. If they don't get hit in the pocketbook then nothing will change.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Well, I am certainly not cutting DirecTV any slack. I have downloaded the CE's and tested them and reported my findings in an effort to help get this working. The reason I do this?

I have purchased the DVR, AU9 dish, installed them and when it works I love the thing, much more than TiVo. I have looked at my other options and I think DirecTv has the greatest upside going forward. Dish(No YES network), IO(Expensive), FIOS(Not in my area), Phone Company(No HD). In short I am invested in this thing and the cheapest way out is to help out.

Bottom line is it has to work ALL THE TIME. Right now it does not. But, for me, it is getting closer. I got an unwatchable recording yesterday, the first since 11F, and other than that I have no MAJOR issues. Would I like FF and REW to work better? Yes, absolutely. But I can live with that for a long time. It is the unwatchables that make me double record everything on my old SD Tivo. And that is ridiculous.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Tom_S said:


> Well, I am certainly not cutting DirecTV any slack. I have downloaded the CE's and tested them and reported my findings in an effort to help get this working. The reason I do this?
> 
> I have purchased the DVR, AU9 dish, installed them and when it works I love the thing, much more than TiVo. I have looked at my other options and I think DirecTv has the greatest upside going forward. Dish(No YES network), IO(Expensive), FIOS(Not in my area), Phone Company(No HD). In short I am invested in this thing and the cheapest way out is to help out.
> 
> Bottom line is it has to work ALL THE TIME. Right now it does not. But, for me, it is getting closer. I got an unwatchable recording yesterday, the first since 11F, and other than that I have no MAJOR issues. Would I like FF and REW to work better? Yes, absolutely. But I can live with that for a long time. It is the unwatchables that make me double record everything on my old SD Tivo. And that is ridiculous.


I agree completely except for one thing: I don't like the idea of "living with" small issues, because it says we are growing more and more accustomed to accepting less for our money. I feel the same way you do about the future, except FIOS will be an option here down the road. There also have been some stories in the press about Comcast exploring new technology that will allow them to greatly increase bandwidth for much more HD programming. That's still to be proven.

Also, being a sports fan, I can't really live with the HR20's FF/REW rocky road. It makes it very difficult to watch a game via time shifting, which is a major issue for me relative to the trick play problems. It's hard to accept, especially when you never had that problem with other DVRs.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Actually I said I could live with it for a long time, not forever. But, if the recording is unwatchable then the FF and REW problem is moot anyway.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Tom_S said:


> Actually I said I could live with it for a long time, not forever. But, if the recording is unwatchable then the FF and REW problem is moot anyway.


True.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Dave_S said:


> If this is the case, why do you stay with the product? If the product sucks, and it won't be fixed (in your opinion), why not get rid of it and move on? What do you want from Directv? A written personal apology from the President of Directv stating "Tom was right the HR20 sucks and we are incompetent"? I don't get it, you are constantly saying you don't think they can fix it, but you hang around dispersing negative energy in almost every thread. If I felt the way you did, I would take action and move on. It is apparent to me that Directv is making a serious attempt to fix this thing, whether or not they will be successful, who knows? But I do give them (and folks like Earl) credit for trying.


Why does this keep coming up -- it already fedd a huge thread a few weeks ago... There are plenty of us who would be happy to give back our HR-20's and have actively tried to do so. I registered my first complaints with D* after a marathon hold session within days of getting the unit and formally asked to return it and cancel the 2 year contract associated with it within a month of having it. DirecTV is taking the position that they are allowed to "fix it" (with no timetable) and refused the accept the return. So even though it has not worked since day one, and even though they said it would work and not that I would be a beta tester (and there is nothing in the contract about being a beta tester), they are in fact forcing these on people through essentially a bait and switch -- i.e. please make a commitment to this "fully operational death star" but it really turns out its still under construction, then not allowing people to opt out when they realize it wasn't what they ordered.

If DirecTV would let people return them, then perhaps you'd have a point about people who keep them needing to cut them some slack. But if DirecTV is going to play hardball with forcing people to live with these, I don't think so...


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

It's funny how different I feel now than when I first purchased the hR20 in Oct '06. I was furious when I first got it and it missed a recording. I even emailed D* directly. But after participating on this board and trying to help when I can, and stepping back and realizing this is the cutting edge of this technology, I vew it differently. The only thing that bothers me is the resources from D* committed to making it play songs and show pics through a pc interface. It is a DVR. It would be nice in the future, but not now. Not until it works right. If there is one programmer dedicated to connecting a pc to it that would ordinarily be a great resource to help it do what it's advertised, then that is one programmer too many.


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

Actually, anyone who's watched Louderbach over the years is familiar with a number of prejudicial hangups he has. It's been a chuckle to see the Z-D tech editors end up with results that contradict his assumptions on a number of occasions.

Just about the only public reviewer from the Z-D staff I give credence to is Robert Heron. Though Louderbach occasionally appears on the IPTV show that Robert -- and Patrick Norton -- produce [dl.tv, twice weekly], he also defers to Robert and other technical staff on matters beyond opinion.

Saying that -- I think the HR20 is sound enough, now, to review in a market where a full analysis including mpeg4 transmission is available.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

In my early career, I had a manager who gave me a great review, then set aside the papers and asked, "Are you aware of how you always seem to see the negative side of things?" That one simple question truly changed my life and maybe some of those who post here should take notice also. I was in my early 30s and you don't just change a lifetime of attitude because you notice it (even if you want). But for my part, I was able to build a successful career on being able to recognize the negative and putting effort into trying to bring change to make it positive (or more positive). 

This OP alarmed me because 1) a call to the media who generally can be counted on to exaggerate any negative and even create issues, and 2) in so doing, egged the media on with a slanted negative statement. Then a potentially good thread AGAIN got turned on end by tstarn forcing in his constantly negative perspective (while using positive comments as "weapons" to exaggerate his position). 

If my post is seen as a personal attack, so be it, but I don't see it that way but simply a statement of what I observe. I would like tstarn and others to think first about how to fix rather than how to accelerate the "burn". Earl is an outstanding example of "how to fix". Recognize the facts, work with these facts and the players (large and small) to bring about corrective change -- even if it's a long slow process. And no matter how difficult the situation and how many personal attacks, he finds a way to move onward and upward -- even if it's a simple statement of "Welcome- thanks for your thoughts".


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## rbean (Jan 12, 2007)

richlife said:


> In my early career, I had a manager who gave me a great review, then set aside the papers and asked, "Are you aware of how you always seem to see the negative side of things?" That one simple question truly changed my life and maybe some of those who post here should take notice also. I was in my early 30s and you don't just change a lifetime of attitude because you notice it (even if you want). But for my part, I was able to build a successful career on being able to recognize the negative and putting effort into trying to bring change to make it positive (or more positive).
> 
> This OP alarmed me because 1) a call to the media who generally can be counted on to exaggerate any negative and even create issues, and 2) in so doing, egged the media on with a slanted negative statement. Then a potentially good thread AGAIN got turned on end by tstarn forcing in his constantly negative perspective (while using positive comments as "weapons" to exaggerate his position).
> 
> If my post is seen as a personal attack, so be it, but I don't see it that way but simply a statement of what I observe. I would like tstarn and others to think first about how to fix rather than how to accelerate the "burn". Earl is an outstanding example of "how to fix". Recognize the facts, work with these facts and the players (large and small) to bring about corrective change -- even if it's a long slow process. And no matter how difficult the situation and how many personal attacks, he finds a way to move onward and upward -- even if it's a simple statement of "Welcome- thanks for your thoughts".


I have been with D* since within 60 days from the day they started broadcasting, have always had the latest thing they have, have spend k's of $ with them, recommended them, bragged about D*, gotten them quite a few customers and will not give up my D*. The two things that could ever change that will be if all the HD doesn't come and they don't get this damn HR20 fixed. It works pretty good and I haven't had the some of the severe problems that others have but I don't and won't believe there is an HR20 out there that doen't have problems. A lot of folks, like me, are living with the problems but they are there and shouldn't be. Let me say again I am a big supporter of D* but it is time they lived up to their obligations. This HR20 has been a big mess from jump street, as everyone knows and as much as I hate to say this, it time to go negative in as big a way as possible. I really believe that it has been so long getting this thing fixed that they are not really using every resource available. 
D* has spend so much advertising on future HD, this year, that if the pressure is not on them and there is a problem with sending up the new sats. they might feel that we will just put up with it like we have the HR20. 
Any company that can put out this "thing" causes one to wonder about other commitments they might make. Anyways that's my never be humble opinion.

If D* isn't paying Earl they need to send him something, even if it's under the table.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

richlife said:


> If my post is seen as a personal attack, so be it, but I don't see it that way but simply a statement of what I observe. I would like tstarn and others to think first about how to fix rather than how to accelerate the "burn". Earl is an outstanding example of "how to fix". Recognize the facts, work with these facts and the players (large and small) to bring about corrective change -- even if it's a long slow process. And no matter how difficult the situation and how many personal attacks, he finds a way to move onward and upward -- even if it's a simple statement of "Welcome- thanks for your thoughts".


Well, I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, I don't believe it is the responsibility of the paying customer to help D* fix its HR20 problems, unless they volunteer to be a beta tester. There is a reasonable expectation that the unit should work as promised. If it fails to do so for someone, and if ranting or spreading the word to the media helps other potential customers, that is fine with me. DirecTV made a business decision to produce their own DVRs in-house, and there is no need for them to be shielded from criticism of the results of those efforts. They can take it -- and if they're as smart a company as I think they are, they likely welcome feedback, both positive and negative. I don't have any issue at all with those who, as you put it, "accelerate the burn." I think that the "burn" has indeed helped make improving their flagship DVR the top priority it needs to be for D*. If we all just took whatever they gave us, there would be less of a business need to improve things.

On the other hand, I am appreciative that D* is beginning to more actively engage the users here, albeit in more of an informal and indirect fashion than I'd personally prefer. I'm fine with testing new releases and providing feedback. I've got two HR20s, and I want them to work reliably and well. I'm also appreciative of those users here who have put tremendous effort into helping others with their problems and frustrations.

The forum is a big tent; both "half-empty" and "half-full" people are OK with me, so long as things don't devolve into personal attacks and name-calling.


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## electrotech (Jan 31, 2007)

I am a new member here and not sure I have seen my problem documented. I called it into the techs at DTV.

What i see is if we use the trick buffer during any recording of another channel(s), we get very short pixelizing and audio drops-maybe 1/2 second. If, during recording, we are not using the remote for channel surfing or trick modes, the recordings are flawless. I have verified this several times. Note: I did not force the latestest beta download and have the 011F ? software.

Any comments?


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

richlife said:


> In my early career, I had a manager who gave me a great review, then set aside the papers and asked, "Are you aware of how you always seem to see the negative side of things?" That one simple question truly changed my life and maybe some of those who post here should take notice also. I was in my early 30s and you don't just change a lifetime of attitude because you notice it (even if you want). But for my part, I was able to build a successful career on being able to recognize the negative and putting effort into trying to bring change to make it positive (or more positive).
> 
> This OP alarmed me because 1) a call to the media who generally can be counted on to exaggerate any negative and even create issues, and 2) in so doing, egged the media on with a slanted negative statement. Then a potentially good thread AGAIN got turned on end by tstarn forcing in his constantly negative perspective (while using positive comments as "weapons" to exaggerate his position).
> 
> If my post is seen as a personal attack, so be it, but I don't see it that way but simply a statement of what I observe. I would like tstarn and others to think first about how to fix rather than how to accelerate the "burn". Earl is an outstanding example of "how to fix". Recognize the facts, work with these facts and the players (large and small) to bring about corrective change -- even if it's a long slow process. And no matter how difficult the situation and how many personal attacks, he finds a way to move onward and upward -- even if it's a simple statement of "Welcome- thanks for your thoughts".


I understand your POV. I guess I could feel the same way about this situation if Directv had treated its customers with respect, in a positive manner, from the outset, but under those circumstances, my "negative" posts are not negativity for negativity's sake. There is a method to my madness (as some might describe it).

As you saw in the article I wrote for HDTVMagazine, I tried to present both sides, and then gave my point of view on the overall situation. Even Earl deemed the article as fair, and balanced, even if I did take Directv to task at the end.

And I certainly believe Earl and others are trying hard to take the "high road" on this entire HR20 situation.

What is really distressing to me (and others, it appears) is why people - you, Earl, etc. - feel compelled to give Directv a pass not for the HR20's failings, but on Directv's "negative" attitude towards customers throughout this entire process. I've heard the counter arguments, i.e., "Okay, so they messed up. What are we going to do about it?" Or, "What do you want them to do?"

One thing we all want them to do get it fixed, and that's been happening here, with mixed results, so far (and with the help of all the good people who have posted all those issue reports,etc. on these pages). But another thing is to stop acting on the public front that this isn't really happening, and as a result, leaving those "other" customers (the ones not on DBSTalk) out there, wondering what is going on.

Is it a "positive" stance for Directv to work in a clandestine manner with a select group of customers while leaving the rest of the customer population trying to figure out what is going on with their new HD DVRs? Is that a positive strategy?

I don't believe it is. And I understand they are desperately trying to figure it all out (another release coming next week, I see). But going back to their Nov. 3 statement on CNET, whereby they claim that the "vast majority" of their subs were thrilled with their HR20s, was a blatant spin job.

Not sure about you, but admitting you have a problem is the first step in solving it. At least that's the common belief. Trying to fix it, in their case, isn't any noble deed, as some here have painted it. It's just Directv trying, an understandably so, to save its butt after releasing a piece of equipment that has caused as much distress as happiness, in my opinion (based on feedback I've received from some people who do not visit DBSTalk, bad reviews, number of attempted fixes, problems/issues posted on DBSTalk, etc.).

Again, sooner or later this will come to a resolution. Either Directv, with the help of the DBSTalk "cutting edge" denizens, will get the box working (and new downloads every week will fade away), or it won't. And as I have said many, many times, I for one hope I am wrong in all this and they get it fixed pronto. And even if this happens, it doesn't excuse Directv's public behavior during the past six months (keeping their customers in the dark).

But, if the latter situation happens, and they just can't get it fixed, no matter how many releases and cutting edge "issues" threads follow, then all the efforts, etc., will be of little value when their customer base does decide to take its money elsewhere. And that will eventually happen, as other competitors start unveiling competing technologies that work (hopefully).

Of course, they have to fix it. My "negativity" is only meant to try and prod them as much as possible in getting it done ASAP. There are plenty of others on this forum who are supplying the data that some believe will lead to a solution.

When you are dealing with another human being, taking a positive approach to resolving issues is the right way to go. When you are dealing with a multi-million corporation, that and $1 will get you a cup of coffee (though not at Starbucks). In case after case throughout the history of American business, when customers were wronged by a large company (either seriously as in exploding Pintos or less so in products that just failed to work as advertised), more often than not, strategies that could have been construed as "negative" (bad reviews/press, litigation, boycotts, etc.) are what made change.

In other words, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I respect your strategy/philosophy, and truth is, I hope it works. But that doesn't mean I should give up on mine (and there are others on this forum who seem to feel the same way, judging by their posts). I believe that approach has value as well.


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

tstarn said:


> You were around for that? You must have done a lot of lurking, because your join date is 12/22/06.
> 
> The majority of people here screaming about their non-working HR20s for the past six months never heard of DBSTalk.com before they got one (and then Googled "HR20" and luckily found this site).


You are correct, but there was alot of other media coverage about it.


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## k2ue (Mar 8, 2004)

hr20manray said:


> and stepping back and realizing this is the cutting edge of this technology, I vew it differently.


But it's not. . . I voted with my wallet and went to TW and an SA 8300HD -- guess what: The forward and reverse are both smoother and faster, and scheduled programs are THERE when I go to view them. My wife is happy, like she was with TiVo, and never was with the HR20. It's NOT rocket science -- only the satellites are, and they aren't the problem.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Seems logical to me. Six months of ineffective software downloads (the latest RC has got 9-plus pages of "issues") is hardly exemplary from a CE product POV. Sure, what's done is done, but people still are cutting Directv way too much slack on a product that was not ready for the masses.
> 
> Yeah, they are trying to fix it. But as I read over the issue threads on 0x120, I see some people who have had little or no problems are now getting black screens and other serious issues.
> 
> ...


This is a great point. I don't weep for D* and how hard they may be working. I pay for results, not efforts. I recognize that this is a difficult process, but I also don't care. I paid full price for my HR20, and I pay my bill every month. If I missed a bill or two, or paid 1/4 of my bill as "updates" every week to try to keep up, D* would drop me as a customer. I would be trying really hard, and I would really care about making my bill, but they wouldn't care. Therefore, I don't care either. Git 'er done. If you have to work weekends, not my problem. Order coffee!


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Is it a "positive" stance for Directv to work in a clandestine manner with a select group of customers while leaving the rest of the customer population trying to figure out what is going on with their new HD DVRs? Is that a positive strategy?
> 
> I don't believe it is. And I understand they are desperately trying to figure it all out (another release coming next week, I see). But going back to their Nov. 3 statement on CNET, whereby they claim that the "vast majority" of their subs were thrilled with their HR20s, was a blatant spin job.


As you have pointed out before though, it's all about the benjamins, right? There's no way on god's green earth that D* is going to come out and make any kind of public statements that cast them in a poor light... Whether it's a positive strategy is not really relevant to how they're going to behave.

Big business is as bad as politics now. It's all spin jobs everywhere, and if D* comes out in the public and says "We screwed up", it'll snowball into a PR disaster worse than what they're facing now.

Personally, I don't see this as treating their customers negatively. It's just business. It's the way things work now. It's not like it used to be where you could admit to a customer that you made a mistake, fix it, and move on. Once 1 customer knows there's a problem, then 10 customers know, then 100, then 1000 and on and on. Plus, you know there are those in the customer base who would call looking for recompense even if they DIDN'T have problems, simply because they can... It's unfortunate, but true.

This "everything is rosy" public attitude isn't unique to D*. Sadly, I guess, I've come to accept this attitude as the norm and just brush it off...

I suppose it's easier for me to let it fall off my back like no big deal since my HR20 has been nearly flawless in the 6 months I've had it... but their attitude in the whole situation doesn't really bug me one way or another. They've come as close to "admitting" a problem as they're going to in working with Earl to set up the early releases to us.

I'm as upset as you are with the situation we're all in. It's ridiculous that we're beta testing software releases on a product that is supposed to be "ready for prime time", but it's where we're at and so we deal with it...


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I understand your POV. I guess I could feel the same way about this situation if Directv had treated its customers with respect, in a positive manner, from the outset, but under those circumstances, my "negative" posts are not negativity for negativity's sake. There is a method to my madness (as some might describe it).
> 
> *Your post was not directed at me, but I've been following this thread and others like it for several months now and want to respond.
> 
> ...


Cheers and good luck with your campaign.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

islesfan said:


> This is a great point. I don't weep for D* and how hard they may be working. I pay for results, not efforts. I recognize that this is a difficult process, but I also don't care. I paid full price for my HR20, and I pay my bill every month. If I missed a bill or two, or paid 1/4 of my bill as "updates" every week to try to keep up, D* would drop me as a customer. I would be trying really hard, and I would really care about making my bill, but they wouldn't care. Therefore, I don't care either. Git 'er done. If you have to work weekends, not my problem. Order coffee!


My feelings are mixed. When I think of the front line gals and guys who likely did not put themselves into this position, but had it thrust upon them, I am very sympathetic and appreciative for their efforts. I've been there, and know how painful it can be. So, to the front line programmers--thank you!

On the other hand, someone was responsible for launching the HR20 before it was ready as a consumer electronic device. (Or for creating the situation whereby it had to be launched.) I must confess to being a bit less sympathetic...

Cheers,
Tom


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## dscott72 (Jan 9, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't subscribe that "negative" press, or really any press for that matter, is going to make DirecTV work any faster..... heck as shown this past week, these guys are now working the weekends, late nights, ect... on the HR20.
> 
> But I also don't mind other publications comming in and checking things out.
> Why? Honestly... I think the spontaneous quick "blog" world, is becoming the "voice" out there. And is not always telling the "entire" story.
> ...


I would tend to agree. I think the more eyes looking at the problem as a whole the better. Even more so if they don't have to worry about D* management looking over them and pushing to "fix" things that ultimately lead to more problems.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

KurtV said:


> Cheers and good luck with your campaign.


 Originally Posted by tstarn View Post
I understand your POV. I guess I could feel the same way about this situation if Directv had treated its customers with respect, in a positive manner, from the outset, but under those circumstances, my "negative" posts are not negativity for negativity's sake. There is a method to my madness (as some might describe it).

Your post was not directed at me, but I've been following this thread and others like it for several months now and want to respond.

How, exactly, has DirecTV treated its customers with other than respect and in other than a positive manner from the outset? Beyond the x percent of clueless CSRs that plague every tech company, it seems to me that they've been busting their collective hump to get this thing right. To wit: The 14+ software releases that you cite in your "article" as evidence that the thing is a POS, shows me that they're doing their damndest to get the thing right.
*Response:*
*This only became a problem for Directv when people began complaining. Period. And why did people complain? Because the HR20 didn't work. Busting their collective hump? A company with the resources of a Directv can't fix its own product with six months of busting its collective hump? Not a chance. If that's the case, they might bust their collective hump for 6 years, and still not have a solution. The disrespect has two parts. One, launching a product that had problems (whether they knew it or not). Two, acting as if those problems were illusory by not even giving their CSRs any information to handle those calling in with problems. That may be business as usual to you for a tech company, but Directv is NOT a tech company, it's a provider of programming who decided to become a tech company with the R15 and HR20 (and obviously had a lot to learn).
*
As you saw in the article I wrote for HDTVMagazine, I tried to present both sides, and then gave my point of view on the overall situation. Even Earl deemed the article as fair, and balanced, even if I did take Directv to task at the end.

Fair and balanced is not a phrase I would have used to describe that article. All of the faintly positive things you had to say appeared to me to be a strawman that would allow you to make that claim; it wasn't a very convincing one.

*Response
You are entitled to your view, but even Earl, the man himself, commented to me personally that the piece was fair and balanced. Good enough for me, since Earl's word is sacrosanct in these here parts.*

And I certainly believe Earl and others are trying hard to take the "high road" on this entire HR20 situation.

What is really distressing to me (and others, it appears) is why people - you, Earl, etc. - feel compelled to give Directv a pass not for the HR20's failings, but on Directv's "negative" attitude towards customers throughout this entire process. I've heard the counter arguments, i.e., "Okay, so they messed up. What are we going to do about it?" Or, "What do you want them to do?"

I guess I'm in the camp with those who "feel compelled to give DirecTV a pass". Except that I don't see how disputing unsubstantiated claims about how widespread the problems are is giving them a pass. I think the serious problems are confined to a fairly small user group that, like most unhappy customer groups, is very vocal. But as I can't back that opinion up with solid data, I don't accuse others who think otherwise of acting in bad faith (unless they present their hunches as something more substantial).

*Response:
I'd be glad to see your proof/data on the "fairly small user group" affected by HR20 problems. Talk about a strawman. There is no way Directv would "bust its collective hump" for a small group of vocal users. Not a chance, for the very reasons you outline below.
*

One thing we all want them to do get it fixed, and that's been happening here, with mixed results, so far (and with the help of all the good people who have posted all those issue reports,etc. on these pages). But another thing is to stop acting on the public front that this isn't really happening, and as a result, leaving those "other" customers (the ones not on DBSTalk) out there, wondering what is going on.

I'm not sure what you're saying here (looks like you left out a word or two), but I think you're insinuating that DirecTV is puposefully misleading the "public" as to the extent of the problems with the HR-20. That's a fairly serious allegation to make without any knowledge of the the breadth of the problem in the subscriber population (or even any knowledge of the size of that subscriber population).

*Response:
Serious allegation? Let them call me a liar, and produce the stats that prove it. I'd be glad to admit I was wrong. I believe criticizing a public entity for a poorly performing product is still protected free speech right in the U.S. And if they have proof to say, otherwise, I'd be glad to hear about it.*

Is it a "positive" stance for Directv to work in a clandestine manner with a select group ocustomers while leaving the rest of the customer population trying to figure out what is going on with their new HD DVRs? Is that a positive strategy?

I feel really special being a part of a clandestine operation like this.

Clandestine? Please.
*Response:
Okay, how about semi-private, if you want to argue semantics. Overstated, perhaps. But it's not being done on any real public level, search engines aside. (That may happen however, if any other media outlets decide to cover this story).
*
I don't believe it is. And I understand they are desperately trying to figure it all out (another release coming next week, I see). But going back to their Nov. 3 statement on CNET, whereby they claim that the "vast majority" of their subs were thrilled with their HR20s, was a blatant spin job.

A blatant spin job? Again, you're asserting something without any supporting facts. Are there problems with 5% or 10% of the users? 90 or 95% is surely considered a vast majority. How is that spin? Truth be told, even using your unsupported hunch that 20% of the boxes have serious issues still leaves us with 80% of customers happy. That too probably meets the generally accepted definition of vast majority. (I'll concede that "thrilled" might be a little spinny. Sort of like using clandestine to describe something that any yocal with a web browser and an internet connection can find in 0.24 seconds.)

*Response:
80-90 percent of non-problem HR20s meets the generally accepted definition of "vast majority" when it comes to a consumer electronics product? Okay, sure. If you say so. That means if there are 100,000 HR20s out there, 10-20,000 aren't working and the rest are fine. You multiply 10-20,000 times the montlthy fees those folks pay, and it's not chicken feed.*

Not sure about you, but admitting you have a problem is the first step in solving it. At least that's the common belief. Trying to fix it, in their case, isn't any noble deed, as some here have painted it. It's just Directv trying, an understandably so, to save its butt after releasing a piece of equipment that has caused as much distress as happiness, in my opinion (based on feedback I've received from some people who do not visit DBSTalk, bad reviews, number of attempted fixes, problems/issues posted on DBSTalk, etc.).

Of course it's not a noble deed. A publically owned company's only obligation and purpose is to make money for it's shareholders (within the bounds of applicable laws and regulations). Nothing more or less. In fact, a "noble deed" that hurt a company's bottom line would be unethical (acknowledging of course, that both the long and short term effects must be considered). Sure, it generally makes sense for a company to make its customers happy; but only to the extent that it enhances profits. Anyone who expects a company to do the "right thing" because it's the right thing has failed to apprehend that basic principle. We can argue all we want about whether what DirecTV is doing makes good business sense, but all of of us who aren't insiders are just guessing.

*Response:
First you speculate that at least 80 percent of HR20 users are happy, now you say a company has no obligation to make its customers happy unless it helps the bottom line. Geez, I'd think that Directv could have saved shareholders a boatload of money by just letting the HR20 remain as it was back in September, because devoting all these resources (called "substantial" by Chase Carey) to fixing a problem that is only affecting a miniscule number of end users is not a smart move. I'd say, using your strategy for P&L, they are in fact committing a fiduciary crime against their shareholders, no?*

*So which is it? Are the doing all this "hump busting" for "noble reasons" (and screwing shareholders, which by your account isn't possible), or is it because they believe a larger number are having problems (not some small, vocal group), so that makes it a mission critical business decision? You are contradicting yourself. They are not busting their collective hump to appease a small, vocal minority.*

Again, sooner or later this will come to a resolution. Either Directv, with the help of the DBSTalk "cutting edge" denizens, will get the box working (and new downloads every week will fade away), or it won't. And as I have said many, many times, I for one hope I am wrong in all this and they get it fixed pronto. And even if this happens, it doesn't excuse Directv's public behavior during the past six months (keeping their customers in the dark).

Who's in the dark? Are there vast numbers of people out there with non-working boxes who don't know to call Customer Service to get help? Are the only people getting help from DirecTV those on this forum? If, as may well be the case, it really is a tiny percentage of customers who are having serious problems, what is DirecTV doing wrong? Should they raise the general alarm and drive current and potential customers away? How would that help them (or any of us, for that matter)?
*Response:
Another contradiction. You claim early in your post that Directv's CSRs were given little if any information about the HR20's problems, now you expect irate HR20 users to call customer service to get help. From what I've read, many users with problems called and got little help (mainly instructions to reformat/reboot, etc.).
*
Even if there is a huge number of boxes out there with serious problems , the course of action that makes the most sense to me is to try to fix those problems as quickly and quietly as possible. Ditching the HR-20 and going back with TiVO or to another DVR maker would be another option. If they went with that strategy, however, a public mea culpa would put them in a more disadvantageous negotiating position.

In short, I don't see how they could do anything other than what they're doing, regardless of size of the problem with the HR-20.

*Response:
If you read my post carefully, you are right on this one. They are now going in the right direction, but they should have done this (marshall "extensive resources") way back in September, rather than waiting until the past 2-3 weeks. But if there is a "huge" number of boxes out there with serious problems (which you concede is possible), fixing it as "quietly" as possible certainly is Directv's goal, but that's not really my/our problem, is it? You seem compelled to help out the poor souls at Directv (and I am talking management, not the poor schlubs trying to get this box fixed), and that's your right. But I don't have to feel that way.
*

But, if the latter situation happens, and they just can't get it fixed, no matter how many releases and cutting edge "issues" threads follow, then all the efforts, etc., will be of little value when their customer base does decide to take its money elsewhere. And that will eventually happen, as other competitors start unveiling competing technologies that work (hopefully).

Again, without knowing how many boxes need "fixing", it's really pointless to speculate about the customer base deserting. I for one have had almost no problems with this box. There are many others here who have had similar experiences. Are we the "vast majority"? I dunno. Neither do you nor anyone else here. Therefore, constantly chanting that the DiretcTV customer base sky is falling (or will fall), without having the data to back it up, is at least a little disingenuous (and more than a little tiresome).

*Response:
If my point of view makes you weary, then I suggest putting me and anyone else whose opinion you don't share on the ignore list. It works for me. That "sky is falling" analogy is so worn out. If you doubt that public pressure can "hasten" change among large consumer companies, fine. Again, I believe otherwise.*

Of course, they have to fix it. My "negativity" is only meant to try and prod them as much as possible in getting it done ASAP. There are plenty of others on this forum who are supplying the data that some believe will lead to a solution.

When you are dealing with another human being, taking a positive approach to resolving issues is the right way to go. When you are dealing with a multi-million corporation, that and $1 will get you a cup of coffee (though not at Starbucks). In case after case throughout the history of American business, when customers were wronged by a large company (either seriously as in exploding Pintos or less so in products that just failed to work as advertised), more often than not, strategies that could have been construed as "negative" (bad reviews/press, litigation, boycotts, etc.) are what made change.

"Fixing" the box will be a bottom line based decision. So, if you're trying to impact their bottom line with your negativity, I guess that's a rational course. It does, however, get kinda old reading the same kinds of (largely unsubstantiated)attacks from you and several of the other regulars here. Remember, nobody liked Debbie Downer.

*Response:
Unsubstantiated attacks? Boo hoo for poor little Rupert Murdoch and Directv. Those poor souls. Being attacked by a consumer whose HR20 doesn't work as advertised. How dare someone question the big mega-corporation? And I guess I made up all the irate consumers who have been reporting problems/issues with their HR20s. I have seen as many posters on DBSTalk complain about their HR20s (for basic DVR functionality not working) as I have seen those whose have never had a problem. Even if it's 60-40 or 70-30, good to bad, that could reflect a small sample of the overall user base.*

And hey, since you brought up the Pintos, don't forget the Dateline NBC expose' on the "exploding" trucks. Another great example of negative publicity making those heartless corporations change their evil ways. Oh, wait...

*Response:
Yeah, those Ford Pintos never really exploded. It was all media myth. And Love Canal never happened either. Just a figment of the media's imagination. Get real. You said it yourself, companies never "do the right" thing because it's right, they do it to improve their P&L. Same hold true here. That's why Directv is now devoting "substantial resources" to finally getting this fixed. I believe the "half empty" folks played just as large a part in that as the "half full" crowd.*

In other words, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I respect your strategy/philosophy, and truth is, I hope it works. But that doesn't mean I should give up on mine (and there are others on this forum who seem to feel the same way, judging by their posts). I believe that approach has value as well.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> As you have pointed out before though, it's all about the benjamins, right? There's no way on god's green earth that D* is going to come out and make any kind of public statements that cast them in a poor light... Whether it's a positive strategy is not really relevant to how they're going to behave.
> 
> Big business is as bad as politics now. It's all spin jobs everywhere, and if D* comes out in the public and says "We screwed up", it'll snowball into a PR disaster worse than what they're facing now.
> 
> ...


Understand. They don't even have to say we screwed up at this point. They have to put every single dime they can afford into getting it fixed for everyone, whatever the number, and then, on the back end, do something nice for HR20 owners who have gone through this fiasco (even if that means ALL HR20 owners).

No matter what, they have dashed the goodwill with some part of their higher-ticket sub base. They have to repair it somehow, once they get through the "fixing" process.

When CNET reviewed the product, they gave it high marks (8.1 out ot 10), despite there being some problems. They also said they were sure Directv would get the kinks out soon. Well....that was in October.

Believe it or not, I have been a Direct sub for 6-plus years and called to complain once the entire time (when their guide messed up and my family almost missed the last episode of Sex and the City, God forbid). Now, this. It all started with the decision to move to the R15/HR20 platform. I didn't get an R15, but had little choice when it came to MPEG4 HD.


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## Inkeyes (Oct 12, 2006)

carl6 said:


> As a user of both of DirecTV's "horribly flawed" DVR's, all I can say is both of my R15's, and my HR20 do everything I ask them to do, just as advertised. I do not get missed recordings. I do not have to reset hourly or daily or weekly (or even weakly).
> 
> I certainly hope that anyone who researches these DVR's and publishes their findings and points of view make certain that they properly represent both sides of the story. There are happy DirecTV DVR users, lots and lots of them. There are well over one million, probably double that or more, R15's and HR20's in service, and there are tens or twenties, or maybe hundreds, of serious complainers, and many of those being people who intentionally try to push the units to the point of failure.
> 
> ...


But we don't know how many work well and how many don't. Directv has not given us that information. Maybe 90% are buggy, and 10% are problem free, who knows?

You better believe Directv doesn't want negative publicity. That might "erode investor confidence" in other words, their stock may go down in value.

Directv knew full well there were problems with this DVR when they released it, they rolled the dice, and they are hoping for the best.


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## elvisizer (Oct 19, 2006)

hey guys, I work at ziff davis. I talked to Jim about this thread this morning. He's not looking to exploit the situation for shock value. So just chill.


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## inbloom (Jan 22, 2007)

The real story here is that a CE company has released a piece of equipment before it was fully tested and ready for the market and at the same time changed their sales model to lock customers into 24 month leases. Instead of revolting an advanced segment of the user base has rallied in an attempt to save the product. Can you imagine if you leased a car that only worked some of the time and instead of returning it you just took it to the dealership every day and helped their mechanics figure out what was wrong, paying the whole time for the pleasure of helping them fix the car... that is some serious customer loyalty…


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

inbloom said:


> The real story here is that a CE company has released a piece of equipment before it was fully tested and ready for the market and at the same time changed their sales model to lock customers into 24 month leases. Instead of revolting an advanced segment of the user base has rallied in an attempt to save the product. Can you imagine if you leased a car that only worked some of the time and instead of returning it you just took it to the dealership every day and helped their mechanics figure out what was wrong, paying the whole time for the pleasure of helping them fix the car... that is some serious customer loyalty&#8230;


Except for a time period, that's exactly what you'd have to do with your car. You don't get to drive it for a week and then decide "This doesn't work like it's supposed to, here take it back."

You take it back, they work on it, you drive some more, if it still doesn't work, you take it back, etc. etc. etc. Until at some point you reach the requisite number of visits within the time frame outlined in the lemon laws. Then you get to return it and walk away.

It's not about customer loyalty, it's about playing the hand you've been dealt. Many people shelled out alot of money for the Hr20 and are now stuck with a 2 year commitment. For those people, it may not be plausible to shell out another 300 in ETF in order to return the HR20.

There are no lemon laws in place that say if your DVR misses X number of recordings in a 30 day period you are entitled to return it for a full refund. So, you're left with very few options. YOu can pay the ETF and be done. YOu can cancel your service and attempt to duke it out with D* after the fact to have the ETF waived. You can call them and attempt to have your account cancelled AND the ETF waived (which, it seems, they're unwilling to do, at least according to some of the posts floating around here). Or, you put the HR20 in the corner and not use it (and, by extension, not get MPEG4 channels, or for some of us without another HD product, not get HD at all). OR, finally, you can participate in the "cutting edge" releases that D* is providing through this web site and see if your performance gets any better.

Perhaps at some point in the future there will be lemon laws protecting buyers of CE products, but right now there are none.

So, many of us who see potential in the HR20 are biting the bullet, living with an imperfect product and trying to help D* sort it out.

Should we have to do all that? You'll get no arguments from me that most of us acquired the HR20 expecting it to work and we shouldn't have to download a release a week and hope that things improve. However, we live in an imperfect world, and we're faced with an imperfect product and the options we have to remedy the situation are also imperfect. But imperfect is better than sitting on our thumbs doing nothing, IMHO.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> If you read my posts


I have, and it is obvious you have an agenda. For someone again repeating that they themself don't have any serious problems, you seem to take an awfully strong interest and respond to almost everyone that makes a post in these threads.



tstarn said:


> I have never seen so many people shed so many crocodile tears over a mega-corporation's screw up.


Or one person so bent on presenting the most negative spin over and over.

You are the one shedding EVERYONES tears IMO. Enough of your crusade, you definitely have an agenda here.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> I have, and it is obvious you have an agenda. For someone again repeating that they themself don't have any serious problems, you seem to take an awfully strong interest and respond to almost everyone that makes a post in these threads.
> 
> Or one person so bent on presenting the most negative spin over and over.
> 
> You are the one shedding EVERYONES tears IMO. Enough of your crusade, you definitely have an agenda here.


Like having an "agenda" (in this case putting the heat on a company that hasn't delivered what it promised) is a federal crime? And speaking up for others who are not as lucky is also an "agenda?" Okay, I have an "agenda" (since you are so in love with that word), it's to try and ensure that Directv delivers what it promised in the first place - an HDDVR that works. Something wrong with that agenda? Oddly enough, I was taking out the trash tonight, and one of the things hanging around my office was the original HR20 box. I read the bulleted features on that box, and the marketing copywriters really poured it on. Then, I sat down to watch a recording of Jeopardy 10 minutes later, and guess what, the sound and video dropped out every 30 seconds or so. My wife gave me the usual dirty look, and we switched over to the R10 (our backup SD DVR) and enjoyed the show.

I think I have an idea what your "agenda" is, Mr. Scobuck. You have mentioned in more than one post that you follow Directv's quarterly statements. A wild guess here, but might you own stock in the company? Of course, I could be wrong and you could be just someone who deeply cares about the good reputation of Mr. Murdoch's (and soon to be Mr. Malone's) company. Me, I'd rather be on the side of the consumer than those two billionaires, who in the end, only really care about the almighty buck.

So you got me, I definitely have "an agenda."

Oh, and just a crazy notion here, but as much as there are people here who may not like it, there are plenty of other people who share my "crusade" in the sense they feel they have been wronged by Directv in this specific case, and they don't like it.


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Originally Posted by tstarn View Post
> I understand your POV. I guess I could feel the same way about this situation if Directv had treated its customers with respect, in a positive manner, from the outset, but under those circumstances, my "negative" posts are not negativity for negativity's sake. There is a method to my madness (as some might describe it).
> 
> Your post was not directed at me, but I've been following this thread and others like it for several months now and want to respond.
> ...


I just don't see the point in the broad-brush DirecTV bashing and ascribing nefarious intent or gross imcompetence to its senior employees. None of us here have the facts or inside knowledge of their strategy to do that in an honest and meanigful way and that results in much more heat than light being generated.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

KurtV said:


> I just don't see the point in the broad-brush DirecTV bashing and ascribing nefarious intent or gross imcompetence to its senior employees. None of us here have the facts or inside knowledge of their strategy to do that in an honest and meanigful way and that results in much more heat than light being generated.


Sure their strategy was not to release a broken product for some unknown but significant number of subs, but they did. And I believe when it comes to bad decisions, the buck ultimately stops in the executive suite, no? The only nefarious intent being ascribed is the way they mishandled it all in the very beginning, when it was apparent the thing wasn't working but they said it was their most "smoothest" DVR launch ever, including the Directivos. If you want the site where they made that statement, I'll send it to you via PM.

Honest and meaningful is good, but it doesn't mean much to anyone who can't use their HR20 after six months of leasing it. Facts and inside knowledge, also good. Good luck getting either of them from the customer support folks at Directv.

Sorry you don't see the point. Some do, some don't.


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## RichardS (Jan 2, 2007)

red.bean.head said:


> What are you doing? Bad press may screw up all the work they are doing! It may go back to the point where we wait months for fixes. Interim fixes are better than waiting around. So far I have had zero issues with 11B & with 120. I think you messed up...:nono2: Calm down & stop stirring things up!


I am not trying to stir anything up at all. My intention is that potential customers of HR20 receivers need to know that there are problems with the HR20 and possibly, if Jim covers the issue, that this forum will be listed and potential customers will see that D* is working to get the problems resolved. 
As I stated in earlier posts, if Jim decides to cover the story he will present a balanced view from both sides. He is an avid D* customer.

I am calm and I appreciate your views, but, not being negative toward you, just because you haven't experienced issues with the latest firmware updates, doesn't mean that others haven't. I still have experienced two system lockups with the new firmware.

Richard


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

It's really like we could have the ELIZA program generate most of these threads at this point, isn't it?

Basically, if your HR20 is great, fine. Enjoy it. Keep doing the "beta testing" if you want and providing feedback via this forum.

If, on the other hand, your HR20 is constantly crapping out on you, you should complain by any means at your disposal, including contacting media representatives. DirecTV is an enormous corporation and they deserve any "heat" they're getting from consumers about the R15 and HR20, like most corporations who release products with unnecessarily high error/failure rates while simultaneously giving customers no reasonable alternatives (hey, both our SD and HD DVRs have the same/worse issues) and no way to switch providers/cancel your contract without large monetary penalties.

Let's look at another big corporation - Microsoft. They have a hugely complex worldwide user base, something like half a billion PCs with Windows and/or Office. Yet they get pilloried in the press for all sorts of things. And for the most part, they deserve it. It doesn't matter that PCs are complex, or building a bullet-proof OS/Office Suite/Internet browser is hard. Microsoft has 10s of billions of dollars in profit every year and tens of thousands of (theoretically) the smartest software engineers in the world working on these issues. There's just no reason to cut them any slack. Windows and Office are their core business, and when they can get those "right" they deserve to be criticized, sometimes even roughly.

Interesting, DirecTV has a fairly long history of delivering reliable programming and hardware (mostly through third party vendors). You couple that with the many years that have elapsed since the first dual-tuner DVRs and even HD DVRs came out (and all the intervening improvements), and that is why I think so many people are pissed off about the R15 and HR20. They seem so out of character for DirecTV.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

inbloom said:


> The real story here is that a CE company has released a piece of equipment before it was fully tested and ready for the market and at the same time changed their sales model to lock customers into 24 month leases. Instead of revolting an advanced segment of the user base has rallied in an attempt to save the product. Can you imagine if you leased a car that only worked some of the time and instead of returning it you just took it to the dealership every day and helped their mechanics figure out what was wrong, paying the whole time for the pleasure of helping them fix the car... that is some serious customer loyalty&#8230;


Guess what?

This is the investor-driven world we live in now. Companies in all markets are under ever increasing pressure to get products out the door as quickly as possible to keep their stock value up. The dotcom days in the 1990s irreparably damaged the world for the consumer. It was during this time that the stock investor became more important than the customer. from that point forward, things have been getting increasingly wors for the consumer. How many times have you called for support and had someone on the phone who you cannot understand? (To be fair, D* has been pretty good in this area)

So if you are an investor and are demanding double-digit return on your investment, you are part of the problem. People like that are what causes companies to make bad long term decisions in favor of the quick buck.


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Sure their strategy was not to release a broken product for some unknown but significant number of subs, but they did. And I believe when it comes to bad decisions, the buck ultimately stops in the executive suite, no? * I don't accept the premise underlying your question. The impact of the decisions being made now and in the recent past won't be known for years. I have no idea if the way they've handled this product release will, in the end, be bad or good.* The only nefarious intent being ascribed is the way they mishandled it all in the very beginning, when it was apparent the thing wasn't working but they said it was their most "successful" DVR launch ever, including the Directivos. If you want the site where they made that statement, I'll send it to you via PM. *First, I said nefarious intent or incompetence. You ascribe both to DirecTV in your posts and not just to the way the company acted in the "very beginning". Second, I don't have any facts that contradict that statement and I don't think you do either. You've again repeated a criticism that's not based in known fact. *
> 
> Honest and meaningful is good, but it doesn't mean much to anyone who can't use their HR20 after six months of leasing it. Facts and inside knowledge, also good. Good luck getting either of them from the customer support folks at Directv.
> 
> ...


*

I've said my piece on this issue. Best of luck. Out.*


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

KurtV said:


> I've said my piece on this issue. Best of luck. Out.[/COLOR][/B]


Ditto on all counts. Nothing like obfuscation to make your points. I guess I live in the real world, not the esoteric, philosophical one you inhabit. Or you're a lawyer.

Oh, and I didn't see any meaningful suggestions on your end as to how to help people with broken HR20s get what they paid for.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Obfuscation??????? we went to different law schools together


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

brittonx said:


> Guess what?
> 
> This is the investor-driven world we live in now. Companies in all markets are under ever increasing pressure to get products out the door as quickly as possible to keep their stock value up. The dotcom days in the 1990s irreparably damaged the world for the consumer. It was during this time that the stock investor became more important than the customer. from that point forward, things have been getting increasingly wors for the consumer. How many times have you called for support and had someone on the phone who you cannot understand? (To be fair, D* has been pretty good in this area)
> 
> So if you are an investor and are demanding double-digit return on your investment, you are part of the problem. People like that are what causes companies to make bad long term decisions in favor of the quick buck.


It all depends on who is running the company. Shareholders get shafted as much as anyone in some situations these days, especially where CEOs and other top execs get huge payouts/golden parachutes when the company stinks up the joint performance-wise. For an interesting take on it, be sure to read Ben Stein's recent column in the NYT's headlined, "Shareholders, what shareholders?"

Even so, many well-run, admired and profitable companies please both shareholders and customers, companies like Caterpillar, General Electric, Federal Express, Proctor & Gamble, FootLocker, etc. (all rated highly by Fortune or Forbes).

Pleasing customers and shareholders is not incompatible.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

jheda said:


> Obfuscation??????? we went to different law schools together


Always wanted to use that word. Notice I didn't use scurrilous.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> It all depends on who is running the company. Shareholders get shafted as much as anyone in some situations these days, especially where CEOs and other top execs get huge payouts/golden parachutes when the company stinks up the joint performance-wise. For an interesting take on it, be sure to read Ben Stein's recent column in the NYT's headlined, "Shareholders, what shareholders?"
> 
> Even so, many well-run, admired and profitable companies please both shareholders and customers, companies like Caterpillar, General Electric, Federal Express, Proctor & Gamble, FootLocker, etc. (all rated highly by Fortune or Forbes).
> 
> *Pleasing customers and shareholders is not incompatible.*


tsarn,

I couldn't agree more! The problem is many companies lack the vision and leadership to understand that if they focus on their customers first they will end up pleasing their investors. When the "bean counters" are running a company, decisions get made purely on numbers. That "touchy-feely" stuff about customers is a completely foreign concept to them and they just view it as an unnecessary expense.

The companies you listed are examples of ones with visionary leadership that understands the dynamics and importance of the human factors relating to customer satisfaction.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Tom, yes I did say your article on HDTV was fair and balanced... however, that was your article then... 

The "Free Pass"... why does not ripping on DirecTV = "Free Pass"...
I just have a very different outlook on this... The past can't be changed... It can only be used to improve the future.

Can't change how and when the HR20 was released. 
Can't change how things where done at the start...

But I am just working with what is available now.

DirecTV is not a "technology company"... Huh?
Aren't they using some of the most sophisticated technology available today? So they are having a rough start with their first HD DVR platform..... And maybe it isn't getting fixed fast enough for you...

If you don't like what is going on here... cut your ties with DirecTV.
Bite the bullet... pay the fee to brake the contract, or what ever... 

I've said it before, and I will say it again... The HR20 had a target on it's back from the day it was announced. The "CNet" review, and the comments that where posted on it... where done basically anonymously... and yes... I really do fell that a lot of people just post the negative stuff.

There is no doubt that the HR20 has issues... but you know what... I do think it is getting better. I really don't want to hear anymore about "well they keep releasing updates every week"... well frankly... Even if I wasn't doing what I was doing, I would rather see updates every week... then waiting 6 months for one.

You have this notion that DirecTV is doing things different because of these articles... well frankly, if you think that... you don't have a clue on what is going on internally at DirecTV... nothing has changed because of your article, or any of the other ones. It really hasn't..

What has changed things... is the input that they have received from this forum... a resource to them now... and they are using that resource.. .and expanding it's usage. That, has changed things.

I keep reading some of these posts... and really have to take a step back.. And realize... you know what... things are not the same as they used to be.

Do any of you really think DirecTV is content with the curernt status of the HR20? Seriously? no... they know they need to fix some more things...
They know there will never be perfection... and who knows what that number "is" is there target.

None of know 50% of the people are having issues... or if only 1%... we just don't. Regardless, there are still some issues... 

And frankly... I am getting tired of seeing this same "thread" every couple days. The answers haven't changed since last week... they have changed from a few weeks ago.

It is getting tiresome.. and frankly.. they do no good... seriously... you may think they are, but they are not... because you know what... it doesn't help someone with a problem... it doesn't help identify the problem..

If you don't like what DirecTV is doing with the Cutting Edge area... don't go in there... don't participate.

If you don't like how DirecTV is handling things... cut your ties... there is another SAT company out there.... 

Free Pass... please... Find me a perfect company in this industry? There isn't one. No Cable Co... Fiber Based... Dish ... none of them. There is difference been a "Free Pass"... and working with what is.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

And one last thing...

Thread Closed...
And future thread of this nature will be closed, if they are in the HR20 forum.... Take it to the General DirecTV forum.

As you are not discussing the "HR20" you are discussiong how DirecTV is running their buisness (and that includes the development cycle of their products).


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Okay...

After about 30ish hours... I can admint when I have over reacted.
That is what I get for trying to "moderate" after 7ish hours of traveling.

So I am moving this thread, over to the General Discussion forum.
Where this type of discussion belongs... and that in general is what I was trying to do... 

So This thread is re-opened... and moved.


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## Laserjock (Mar 7, 2006)

Okay...I have been reading through the x120 issue and discussions threads after reading this thread and am really surprised the OP was drilled the way he was over contacting Louderback, especially since JL is a D* customer.

I have my HR20 scheduled for installation on 2/10 and I am getting very nervous about it now.

D* has obviously released a beta product and has chosen to have its paying subscribers serve as the beta testers. That may be fine for some of the tech guru/enthusiasts who enjoy participating in that, but I don't particularly want to spend all the time switching, rebooting, unplugging and whatever else is having to be done just to get the picture and functions that I am paying D* monthly fees to receive.

Based on what I have been reading about the latest release...seems D* could use a national kick in the jewels in the press for doing this to its subscriber base. 

Just my opinion for what little it is worth.


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

Vinny said:


> Personally, the number of pages generated by the issues thread does not represent the anount of issues. It does represent the:
> 
> a) committment of all of us volunteering to become part of the solution;
> b) detail of the post's down to the channel being viewed before a BSOD or other issue;
> ...


"Our help?" Was this thing free? If it was, then I'd be glad to help.


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

Laserjock said:


> Okay...I have been reading through the x120 issue and discussions threads after reading this thread and am really surprised the OP was drilled the way he was over contacting Louderback, especially since JL is a D* customer.
> 
> I have my HR20 scheduled for installation on 2/10 and I am getting very nervous about it now.
> 
> ...


I'm keeping my HR10-250 for a while longer.


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## john18 (Nov 21, 2006)

I disagree with the OP doing what he did. Just my opinion.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

FarNorth said:


> "Our help?" Was this thing free? If it was, then I'd be glad to help.


If you agree to participate in the CE upgrade windows then approach this as a way to contribute to a better DVR for all.
If you really don't like this box nor* the efforts of the many here *then go to cable or to E*Dish...I'm sure you will get a refund from D*.

At least there is a company that is atune to the input of D*"fringe" users and an internet board to take these posts seriously to make changes to its program to make the HR20 better for all HR20 users.

Chuck


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

red.bean.head said:


> What are you doing? Bad press may screw up all the work they are doing! It may go back to the point where we wait months for fixes. Interim fixes are better than waiting around. So far I have had zero issues with 11B & with 120. I think you messed up...:nono2: Calm down & stop stirring things up!


Perhaps enough bad press will convince DirecTV that they should give their customers a choice of DVRs. It would be nice if we could choose between the HR20 and a Tivo.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

jbrasure said:


> Perhaps enough bad press will convince DirecTV that they should give their customers a choice of DVRs. It would be nice if we could choose between the HR20 and a Tivo.


No amount of bad press will make that happen. Maybe (and just maybe certainly not definately) if enough customers cancelled their subscriptions because of the R15 and/or HR20 DirecTV might do something, but even that is doubtfull. Tivo users make up something like 2.5 million subscribers out of over 15 million. Even if every Tivo subscriber cancelled their subscription, I doubt it would convince DirecTV to go back to Tivo. It would get their attention, but probably would not bring back Tivo.

Carl


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

FarNorth said:


> "Our help?" Was this thing free? If it was, then I'd be glad to help.


Please remember (or you might not be aware) that this forum, collectively, OFFERED to help.

Obviously, we are not required to help and it is fine if you don't want to, but some of us view the opportunity to test the release candidates as a privilege. The fact that many HR20s have so many problems is unfortunate, but we appreciate the opportunity to be part of the solution.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

BubblePuppy said:


> If you really don't like this box nor* the efforts of the many here *then go to cable or to E*Dish...I'm sure you will get a refund from D*.
> 
> Chuck


You will not get a refund. There is a two year contract thay you are locked into as soon as you activated the DVR. You are locked into that contract whether the HR20 is failing to record, locking up or requiring a daily RBR.

That is what has rubbed many the wrong way. Directv could go a long way by waiving the two year commitment - and I don't mean by having to play CSR roulette for hours or begging, but instead, by an official policy that the commitment is waived until the DVR is stable.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

raott said:


> You will *not* get a refund. There is a two year contract thay you are locked into as soon as you activated the DVR. You are locked into that contract whether the HR20 is failing to record, locking up or requiring a daily RBR.
> 
> That is what has rubbed many the wrong way. Directv could go a long way by waiving the two year commitment - and I don't mean by having to play CSR roulette for hours or begging, but instead, by an official policy that the commitment is waived until the DVR is stable.


I stand corrected...I should have typed "probably might get a refund or you might not."


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

BubblePuppy said:


> I stand corrected...I should have typed "probably might get a refund or you might not."


I haven't seen a post yet where anyone was released from their commitment (they may be out there and I just missed it). However, I have seen a few where people tried to get out, including one where a person went up the chain all the way to the office of the president, and was still told "no".


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## Araxen (Dec 18, 2005)

iceman2a said:


> D* mngmnt made a "bad" decision dumping TIVO and taking DVR development "in house" to people who were/are not upto the task! They made a "bad" decision forcing release of a product that wasn't ready to be released!
> 6 months after the release they are still trying to fix the problems!
> 
> *Everybody is covering their asses!*
> ...


Yup, I agree. There is no reason PAYING customers should be beta testing their equipment. It's stupid and I hope Jim gets some press on this. It is much deserved.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

carl6 said:


> No amount of bad press will make that happen. Maybe (and just maybe certainly not definately) if enough customers cancelled their subscriptions because of the R15 and/or HR20 DirecTV might do something, but even that is doubtfull. Tivo users make up something like 2.5 million subscribers out of over 15 million. Even if every Tivo subscriber cancelled their subscription, I doubt it would convince DirecTV to go back to Tivo. It would get their attention, but probably would not bring back Tivo.
> 
> Carl


Well, I just cast my vote. The HR20 is going back to DirecTV this week.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

You should also know the journalist know about the fact that new guide data from DirecTV has apparently crippled most all DirecTV receivers with TiVo. I've gotten to the point that I'm forcing a reboot every 2 days to head off the bug.

Actually, makes me yearn for the days when Hughes ran D*.


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## Chesney09 (Apr 11, 2006)

As a consumer of D* for a number of years.. And a happy consumer for the majoiry of that time... I am just as frustrated as many here are. I pay a monthly fee to have access to their service. I paid a LARGE sum of money for my HD TiVo as many here have as well. I paid that money, as well as locking myself into a 2 year commit to D*, willingly because I KNEW I was getting what I was paying for. That was a product that worked as advertised. 
Then the updates began and downhill it went. My HD TiVo is now as stable as I guess I can expect. It is far far better that the "a" release but still not what it was prior. 
I signed up for the 'waiting list" for the HR20 because I have a 2nd HDTV that I wanted a DVR on. Yes, I got it for a discounted rate, but that was due to the hours and hours, days and days of time spent just trying to figure out when I would get the hardware I Paid for. I was lied to, hung up on, etc. 
I now have my HR20 and it isn't worth the 'discounted' price I paid for it. Lock ups, audio drops, software release after software release.. New problems arise others subside....
This whole crock of crap of consumers being forced to be 'beta' testers is a total disgrace and just a hint of what the American Corporation has become. As the days wear on.. it becomes VERY obvious that the HR20 should have never been released. Over a dozen software releases in the short length of time it has been out is a testament to that. ALL of the software releases should never be released... until they get this thing fixed the right way... For all of us that are here on this forum trying to make some sense of what is going on.. There are thousands that are either a) Trying to dump D* but can't due to a $300 HD investment and 2 year commit b) are jumping ship c) just accepting it as normal (I find that a lesser choice of the 3) 
D* should have a ton of exposure for it's abismal performance in Customer Service, Hardware/software performance. 
We invest thousnds of dollars into new TVs, home theatre equipment, and service providers only to end up thinking you are getting a reasonable service (As I read the website about their great services and hardware) and getting a piece of crap that has more issues that PLayboy.
I now find myself a puppet to D*, paying well over a $100/month, HOPING that sometime in the near future they will get it together or I just ship it all back and pay the $300 ETF and start all over with Cable. 
Earl.. as I said.. The information you provide to this community is invaluble. With out you constanly providing the info you do, D* would likely be losing more Subs or at a minimum, be short a "Beta Group". 
My biggest question is.. Why should ANY of this even be going on? I mean seriously... This is a pretty hosed up situation and quite frankly, it sucks.

I could rant on longer, but my daughter is yelling from the other room that the "Satellite Box crapped out again". I have to go and tend to her now.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

I have downloaded the last few updates and am more impressed by each one.

They are slowly making it a very solid DVR.

They will be their soon


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I just ran into this post for the first time and I'd say, "too much, too little, too late". Maybe there would have been a solid case four or five months ago when a lot of people were fighting horrendous issues but as far as I've seen there's been a real change at DirecTV since the first of the year.


They've significantly changed their policy for rolling out new releases. Instead of rolling out to West Coasters first and hoping for low call volume, they've established a real, working, voluntary external beta program.
They've stated here and at CES that stability is now their #1 goal in development, and it shows in the release notes for the last few builds. 
Many people have reported only minor issues with software builds after 0x119, and thanks to the "cutting edge" program, version 0x120 went national very quickly, hopefully to the benefit of many. 
If it's any indication, the rhetoric in the last few weeks over at the HR20 forum seems markedly more civil as well.

Maybe a national journalist needs to run a story about how a corporate giant actually started listening to a bunch of dedicated users, both the optimists and pessimists, and actually reacted and started fixing the problems.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Laserjock said:


> D* has obviously released a beta product and has chosen to have its paying subscribers serve as the beta testers. That may be fine for some of the tech guru/enthusiasts who enjoy participating in that, but I don't particularly want to spend all the time switching, rebooting, unplugging and whatever else is having to be done just to get the picture and functions that I am paying D* monthly fees to receive.
> 
> Based on what I have been reading about the latest release...seems D* could use a national kick in the jewels in the press for doing this to its subscriber base.


Thank you for your comments. This is exactly why it is important for the national press to write a story about D* and its HR20. Customers are charged a $299 fee for the right to lease a device (another monthly fee), with a monthly charge for programming.

When the device fails to perform for a number of customers, who allege the product is a POS beta device requiring numerous software updates that fail to fix issues, resulting in a loss of paid programming, that is a story. Customers (current and future) will read it, as will D* shareholders. If a story results in D* publicly allowing customers out of their 2-year contracts, refunds for their purchases, monthly credits for lost/unusable programming, that's great. If a story results in shareholders pressuring new owner Liberty into dumping Murdoch's POS HR20 and returning to TiVo, great.

The power of a single national story can have a great impact on resolving the HR20 issue. It's not in conflict with the CE testers here. It's on a separate track. CE testers are valantly working to improve the HR20. A national story can spur a larger solution, by sending a message to the folks who run D*. I'd rather step over the CE testers and D* software engineers, and send a message to the top of D*.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

dhaakenson said:


> The power of a single national story can have a great impact on resolving the HR20 issue. It's not in conflict with the CE testers here. It's on a separate track. CE testers are valantly working to improve the HR20. A national story can spur a larger solution, by sending a message to the folks who run D*. I'd rather step over the CE testers and D* software engineers, and send a message to the top of D*.


IMHO: It will have NO impact or may have the negative effect that you are looking for.

It is not like DirecTV is sitting there, not trying to fix the unit.
They have developers working long days, and the weekend... trying to correct any and all issues.

Do you think those that "run" DirecTV are not involved with what is going on with the HR20? If you think that, then you don't understand the importance of the HR20 to DirecTV.

As for a negative aspect...

IMHO... If a "national" article is written you will see one of two things:
1) No change at all, as like I said... they are already working with a significant amount of resources.
2) CE and frequent releases stopped... They will go into a mode where there would be no updates for several weeks/months while they work to get one BIG release.

What MORE do you want them to do? Seriously... 
What else more can they do? In development, you can only add "so" many resources to tackle issues... you reach a point where you get too many hands into it, you actually start to create issues quicker, then fixing them.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What MORE do you want them to do? Seriously...


I've said it before and I'll say it again. Drop the two year contract until the unit is stable.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

raott said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again. Drop the two year contract until the unit is stable.


TWO year contract has nothing to do with the unit, it is for the programming.

You would have the two year contract if you have an H20, R15, or even the HR10-250 (when it was still available). One year if it is a D10, D11, D12

"Who" then get's to define it is stable?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

raott said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again. Drop the two year contract until the unit is stable.


I think that would be a great solution. If a customer is in a two year commitment due to adding a HR20 and that customer wants to return the HR20 due to it's problems, let that customer out of the commitment. If the customer wants to reactivate an old SD DVR or a HR10 let them do that without any new commitment. If the customer was a new customer that leased the HR20, let them move from DTV to another provider if they wish.

BTW, the same should be offered with the R15. IMO.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> IMHO... If a "national" article is written you will see one of two things:
> 1) No change at all, as like I said... they are already working with a significant amount of resources.
> 2) CE and frequent releases stopped... They will go into a mode where there would be no updates for several weeks/months while they work to get one BIG release.
> 
> ...


The only thing they could do more is perhaps hire in more people if the coders working on the box need help and are overworked.

I'd hate for the CE releases to stop... I really like helping them test these things.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Capmeister said:


> The only thing they could do more is perhaps hire in more people if the coders working on the box need help and are overworked.
> 
> I'd hate for the CE releases to stop... I really like helping them test these things.


Yeah, but then you would have to train them on the HR20 software first. That would be more delays. I'm fully with Earl on this. Things are improving, let them continue to work.

More programmers does not necessarily mean a quicker response. Like they say, 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month!


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I'm going to suggest some middle grounds here:

IMHO there was a time when DIRECTV needed the press to get the whole company on the same page as to the real situation of the HR20. And once everyone was on that page, DIRECTV has done most, if not all the right things to solve the problems: dedicate more resources, stop new features and focus on problems, and creatively used unconventional resources to help (ie all the great people here at dbstalk.)

So, I don't think more press will help with the bottom line for those customers who want a great DVR in the HR20. More people will most like not help. Maybe a few in QA or review, but generally only a few more people.

As to the business side, if people are still having problems leaving their commitments (I've heard of stories both ways), that does seem a bit extreme. Perhaps some press could resolve that? 

Cheers,
Tom


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## pchilson (Jan 8, 2007)

As far as the commitments go, technically yes you agree to the 2 years when you activate or "buy" the advanced equipment. However with DTV's undisputed knowledge of the issues revolving around the advanced equipment they should be more generous on a case by case basis of letting people off the hook on these commitments.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should...

I am not currently on HD equipment but I do have an R15 "advanced equipment" DVR and am commited for 24 months because of it. My R15 is ok but I am very apprehensive and hesitant to move to the HR20 not only because of the risk of problems with the unit but mainly because of the inability to "opt out" if I am one of the unfortunates to be afflicted by unreliable equipment.

Cable, good or bad, does not require me to commit and I can disconnect at any time with no "early termination" penalty. 

I'm not knocking DTV, I think they are commited to resolving these issues but feel that until they "get it right" they should loosen their iron grip on the commitment thing. People will be much more understanding if they could feel they didn't have a gun to their head.


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## westernamerican (Dec 14, 2006)

Generated a lot of Buzz!


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## alv (Aug 13, 2002)

It is always the commitment that bothers me. If any other piece of Consumer Electronics equipment was this bad, many of us would return it immediately. Charging $300 to do that seems seems irresponsible no matter how hard they are working no making it better. If they succeed great, but why punish those that can't wait. I'm fortunate that I still have an HR10 to record shows without dropouts or red spots moving around. If I had to use the HR20 for the bulk of my network recordings, I would be furious. It seems fine to keep a stash of movies for now.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Maybe we just need to leave 2006's issues in 2006 and if you're dealing with issues in 2007, let's deal with those. The past is just the past. It's up to those involved to learn from it or not. 

So far it seems like DirecTV has learned from the past without being on the cover of Newsweek. Which, BTW, I worked for a guy back in the 1990s who was on the cover of Newsweek under the heading of "Radio Ripoffs". It didn't stop him from doing anything he did and it didn't get anyone's money back. It just forced him to change the steps, but not the dance.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> Thank you for your comments. This is exactly why it is important for the national press to write a story about D* and its HR20. Customers are charged a $299 fee for the right to lease a device (another monthly fee), with a monthly charge for programming.
> 
> When the device fails to perform for a number of customers, who allege the product is a POS beta device requiring numerous software updates that fail to fix issues, resulting in a loss of paid programming, that is a story. Customers (current and future) will read it, as will D* shareholders. If a story results in D* publicly allowing customers out of their 2-year contracts, refunds for their purchases, monthly credits for lost/unusable programming, that's great. If a story results in shareholders pressuring new owner Liberty into dumping Murdoch's POS HR20 and returning to TiVo, great.
> 
> The power of a single national story can have a great impact on resolving the HR20 issue. It's not in conflict with the CE testers here. It's on a separate track. CE testers are valantly working to improve the HR20. A national story can spur a larger solution, by sending a message to the folks who run D*. I'd rather step over the CE testers and D* software engineers, and send a message to the top of D*.


Very well put!


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

Tom_S said:


> More programmers does not necessarily mean a quicker response. Like they say, 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month!


However, a national news story about the HR20 could lead to a change in direction, and that's what we really need. For instance, maybe it would help lead to a choice of multiple DVRs from 3rd parties.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

raott said:


> I haven't seen a post yet where anyone was released from their commitment (they may be out there and I just missed it).


I got out.

I was 'in' for about 2.5 days. immediately, I knew this was the wrong decision. or rather, right decision but THEY could not perform their side of the contract. and I wasn't hopeful, either, after seeing it crash so often in just 2 days..

I called and asked to revert back to my old plan (hdvr2 hughes directivo, SD only). the guy at retention seemed to understand immediately and didn't try to talk me out of it other than to suggest an h20 instead of hr20. I said I'd check back on the recorder in about 6mos or so - and if it looks, by user reports, to be stable, I'll re-consider the hr20.

they fedex'd me an empty box for the hr20. I never got a replacement (ie, no accidental shipment of another one for me) and he did cancel my HD service while on the phone. in fact, it was THEN that I first learned that if you lose sat signal, 'all your ba^H^Hsaved recordings are (now) belong to them' [sic].  right after he sent the disconnect signal, I could LIST my saved shows but just not watch them. (and he put on a very good act by saying 'oh really? I didn't know that.')

so, yes, by all accounts it appears I was able to resume my old month-by-month direct-tivo SD service. I have been a DTV customer for about 4 or 5 yrs now - not a huge long time, but for some reason they did consider me an 'a list' customer.

I still enjoy my directivo - it still works JUST FINE. and I go elsewhere for my HD fix (currently I'm dinking around with an 'hd home run' box that takes in 2 F connectors for atsc/clearqam and puts out ethernet! yes, 2 streams just fit in a 100mbps ethernet stream. then something like videolan or sagetv to receive the ethernet data and convert to TS files, which are then easily dealt with.. just wish I could get premium content in clear-qam. oh well


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## Ashtonian (Jan 31, 2007)

jbrasure said:


> However, a national news story about the HR20 could lead to a change in direction, and that's what we really need. For instance, maybe it would help lead to a choice of multiple DVRs from 3rd parties.


If D* needs help with programming why not hire programmers?
I don't understand the issue here. Honestly I don't.
My Hughes DVR works flawlessly!
What precisely is actually wrong with the software on the HR20 ?

Programming is very easy, why all this fuss and bother with the HR20?
This is_ not_ Windows 95.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

complex real-time systems are NOT trivial.

to bring someone up to speed could be months. to be EFFECTIVE it could be 6mos. seriously.

some bugs can be caught by casual code reading, but I suspect these aren't the bugs that you see in the hr20...

there is an o/s below and some stuff done to the o/s, probably. bugs could be there. there are 'apps' above the o/s. probably huge bugs there. then there is the hardware - it COULD have issues. the system (hw+sw) could be fighting itself with interrupts or timers doing things not exactly as planned.

this isn't a simple game of pong, here. 

finally, the quality does depend on its designers and engineers. I'm not even sure THAT work was properly done, to be honest. if that is the case, then no amount of work-arounds will fully fix things.

this is not win95. then again, win95 had thousands of programmers (or hundreds, at least). I doubt the same order of magnatude is in play, here.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Ashtonian said:


> If D* needs help with programming why not hire programmers?
> I don't understand the issue here. Honestly I don't.
> My Hughes DVR works flawlessly!
> What precisely is actually wrong with the software on the HR20 ?
> ...


Writing "hello world" to a window is easy. Writing an applicaiton like wordpad is almost trivial.

But writing a body of programs that become embedded into a hardware device is very hard. The tools a programmer would use to debug a normal application are not available to most programming in an embedded device--at least for the buld of the remaining problems. Timing issues, where the outcome of a request depends on which things happen in which order, are extremely sensitive to the same things a developer would use to measure timing. Even simple logs of what happened can throw off the timing enough to be useless as a debugging tool.

Truly, for embedded programming and hardware device coding, you want the very best programmers as measured by quality. Not quantity.

Cheers,
Tom


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

tibber said:


> Even simple logs of what happened can throw off the timing enough to be useless as a debugging tool.


well, to play devil's advocate on this one, you CAN accomplish event logging and not have to call 'printf' for a slow serial device, etc. you could write short event codes to memory and then flush that to something (disk, network) when there is idle time or on user command (diag mode).

I am a firm believer in field-settable tracing and logging. I do that at my day job and its saved my bacon a few times. its silly to have complex animals like a PVR in the field - especially with problems! - and not have an upline-dumpable event or trouble log.

one could argue that this lack of logs could affect WHY the debug is taking so long...


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> TWO year contract has nothing to do with the unit, it is for the programming.
> 
> "Who" then get's to define it is stable?


If a customer has an HR20 that is riddled with so many audio/video dropouts that each recording is nearly unwatchable (as mine was with all software releases prior to 12A), then the two year contract has everything to do with the unit, as the unit renders the programming unusable.

Who gets to define whether the customer is happy? The customer. If D* thinks customers are lying about their inability to receive and enjoy the programming they are paying for, then it truly is time for a class action lawsuit.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

I take offense at your suggestion that I am looking for a negative effect. It's really beneath you, Earl, to assume the worst in others.

In answer to your question, what would I like D* to do? I'd like them to address afflicted HR20 customers directly and make amends for their mistake in rushing an unstable product to market, then hurling software update after software update at the problem as if it's some sort of focused strategy rather than panic. Rather than be thankful that D* has programmers working long nights and weekends after flawed HR20s were already sold to an undetermined number of customers, I'd be more thankful if D* were wise enough to not sell the HR20 until it suffered fewer failures. And, if D* had better absorbed early feedback from HR20 customers and withheld further sales until the software exhibited a higher degree of stability.

Good companies make amends without bad press. Those that do not are asking for bad press. Offering a chance to customers to dump their HR20 and the 2-year commitment, targeted specifically to HR20 customers via the built in messaging function on the HR20 or via direct mail, would be a fair gesture that would rebuild support in D*. Customers would at least feel they have a choice, rather than handcuffs.

I doubt a national story would impact the CE program. One would anticipate that D* would still test future software updates beyond its own employees and what better tool for this than an invaluable pool of intelligent users like those who post here?

But if the CE program were adversely affected by a national story, it would be D*'s fault, not the press. D* has every opportunity to change a story before it is written. It's fate is in its own hands.



Earl Bonovich said:


> IMHO: It will have NO impact or may have the negative effect that you are looking for.
> 
> It is not like DirecTV is sitting there, not trying to fix the unit.
> They have developers working long days, and the weekend... trying to correct any and all issues.
> ...


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

alv said:


> It is always the commitment that bothers me. If any other piece of Consumer Electronics equipment was this bad, many of us would return it immediately. Charging $300 to do that seems seems irresponsible no matter how hard they are working no making it better. If they succeed great, but why punish those that can't wait. I'm fortunate that I still have an HR10 to record shows without dropouts or red spots moving around. If I had to use the HR20 for the bulk of my network recordings, I would be furious. It seems fine to keep a stash of movies for now.


Exactly. If a customer, any customer, has received a lemon, she should be able to return it and extricate herself from the 2-year commitment, without penalty. The mere fact that the 2-year commitment begins after the customer turns on a defective device, without an escape clause, is very telling about D* customer service itself.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

linuxworks said:


> well, to play devil's advocate on this one, you CAN accomplish event logging and not have to call 'printf' for a slow serial device, etc. you could write short event codes to memory and then flush that to something (disk, network) when there is idle time or on user command (diag mode).
> 
> I am a firm believer in field-settable tracing and logging. I do that at my day job and its saved my bacon a few times. its silly to have complex animals like a PVR in the field - especially with problems! - and not have an upline-dumpable event or trouble log.
> 
> one could argue that this lack of logs could affect WHY the debug is taking so long...


But dump the log, where? On each individual DVR? To a central server? Remember that we're talking about millions (I take it that the number is in the millions) of these devices being out there. If you have even a fraction dumping data like that, who would pour through those logs to find the problem? I have no issue with what your describing - diagnosing memory problems without some type of log is insanity (or would quickly make you insane). I just don't know how you would implement that in this type of situation - where you have a bunch of independent consumer electronic products sitting out there. Sort of like having a TV do a dump to a log.

Where I think this COULD help is in handling truly catastrophic failure, where the device is required to be returned. That way, before refurbishing the product, they can do some real diagnostics as to what went wrong with that particular device (sort of like what your car does when it turns your "check engine" light on - you take your car into the garage, and they hook it up to a computer that diagnoses the problem based on what the car's computer tells the diagnostic computer). Don't get me wrong - I agree with what you're saying, in a general sense. But unless you're willing to bring your DVR in every time it does something odd (so they can review the log and figure out what caused you to miss that one show), I really don't see how implementing something like this would be practical, or allow for the diagnosis of some of the more routine issues of the machine.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

one idea is to dump the log to a thumbdrive!

those are less than cheap, these days. dtv COULD ship thumbdrives (usb based) to customers, they could key in some remote code and that would dump the log to the flash card, which could be mailed back to dtv. worst case. there ARE ways to get remote logs IF you care enough about remote debug.

also, isn't there a backchannel? worst worst case - phone it in! seriously. you could compress the log to just tokens in binary and the upload won't take that long.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

dhaakenson said:


> I take offense at your suggestion that I am looking for a negative effect. It's really beneath you, Earl, to assume the worst in others.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


Well, I take offense that you think it is beneath me. You don't even know me... Sorry I threw out an alternative view on how I think things could result.
Everything doesn't end up "rosey" because the Media/News gets involved. Even if they think they have good intentions, it could result in something completely opposite.

So again, if an article comes out and attacks how DirecTV is handling the development of the HR20... What is one plausable outcome of that?

Closing in the ranks of the information (that would include the CE forum)... and working on a larger release. Or it could have the effect that you may think it has. I personally feel that it would be the closing the information pipes and going to a larger longer release cycle. But hey... what do I know.

So yes, maybe I am being a little protective of that area... as it was one that has taken 18 months of work by not just me, but by the several hundred users here in this forum who have taken it seriously. To get it to where it is today.


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> I take offense at your suggestion that I am looking for a negative effect. It's really beneath you, Earl, to assume the worst in others.
> 
> In answer to your question, what would I like D* to do? I'd like them to address afflicted HR20 customers directly and make amends for their mistake in rushing an unstable product to market, then hurling software update after software update at the problem as if it's some sort of focused strategy rather than panic. Rather than be thankful that D* has programmers working long nights and weekends after flawed HR20s were already sold to an undetermined number of customers, I'd be more thankful if D* were wise enough to not sell the HR20 until it suffered fewer failures. And, if D* had better absorbed early feedback from HR20 customers and withheld further sales until the software exhibited a higher degree of stability.
> 
> ...


1) You need to read all the posts pre hr20 release CRITISIZING D* for not getting it out fast enough...
2)We are all aware that D* is one of the most liberal companies in making "adjustments" for their hiccups....THEY HAVE MADE AMENDS ...try getting your cellphone company to credit you for anything much less getting out of a commitment.....CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? 
3)There is nothing more in regards to improving the Hr20 that a negative story would do, see cnet article, etc...people b*tch when the updates come to soon, others when it comes to slow...
4)Ive yet to see a post where Earl "assumed the worst in others", including the one you refer to; personal attacks are not going to make my hr-20 work better faster....but this CE program will....


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well, I take offense that you think it is beneath me. You don't even know me... Sorry I threw out an alternative view on how I think things could result.


My point exactly. You don't know me either, so it's rather odd that you would assume my motive for posting is to seek a negative effect, as if my intent in posting is to harm D* or its customers.

My motives are pure. I seek a truly positive effect, by throwing out an alternative view on how I think that positive effect can be achieved. I value your comments as a alternative view and will not impune your motives for posting them.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

dhaakenson said:


> My point exactly. You don't know me either, so it's rather odd that you would assume my motive for posting is to seek a negative effect, as if my intent in posting is to harm D* or its customers.
> 
> My motives are pure. I seek a truly positive effect, by throwing out an alternative view on how I think that positive effect can be achieved. I value your comments as a alternative view and will not impune your motives for posting them.


I don't think you are reading that right. Earl did not say you are seeking a negative effect. But that you may wind up with a negative(or opposite) effect than what you are seeking. Quote from Earl: "It will have NO impact or may have the negative effect"


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

jheda said:


> 1) You need to read all the posts pre hr20 release CRITISIZING D* for not getting it out fast enough...
> 2)We are all aware that D* is one of the most liberal companies in making "adjustments" for their hiccups....THEY HAVE MADE AMENDS ...try getting your cellphone company to credit you for anything much less getting out of a commitment.....CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?
> 3)There is nothing more in regards to improving the Hr20 that a negative story would do, see cnet article, etc...people b*tch when the updates come to soon, others when it comes to slow...
> 4)Ive yet to see a post where Earl "assumed the worst in others", including the one you refer to; personal attacks are not going to make my hr-20 work better faster....but this CE program will....


Concerning your list.

1. I'd love to see the matches between those early cries for the HR20 and those who are having ongoing (or new) serious problems today. I'd guess most people who have had negative experiences on DBSTalk today are not the same people who posted those critiques for its delay.

2. Making amends is one thing, making it work for everyone is another. I'd like to see a comparable situation with a cell phone provider (i.e., hardware that failed so badly with no replacement/alternative).

3. I'd wager that if a negative story appeared taking Directv to task for this launch, they would not drag their heels in getting it either fixed or finding a new alternative, much like Dish did when it dumped its line of DVRs in the early years (Dishplayers, a major disaster). Sooner or later, a story will appear if this drags on deep into 2007.

4. The CE program may or may not solve the HR20's problems. It is not a definitive solution at this point. If there were little or no problems in the 12a thread, I'd agree. But it's now at 15 pages, in three days (granted some are repeats or off topic, but many posts refer to several issues that have been around since the beginning, and some are new).


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> It's not DirecTV's job to educate their customers before buying because it's their JOB to sell their equipment and programming services. When someone asks them "Can I buy a high def dvr?", do you think the CSR is going to say "Yes, you can, but you might not want to because the one expensive receiver we sell that can do this currently has some bugs that we and others are working very hard to fix". Noooo, that CSR is going to say "Yes, for $299, and your going to love it"!


Actually it is DTV's job and legal obligation to notify their customers of known problems with their products. Then the customer can make an educated decision as to whether to purchase the product or not.

Instead, DTV does not inform their customers of problems. When customers call (at least in the case of the R15) DTV denies that the problems continue to exist. Plus DTV continues to charge a monthly fee ($5.99 for the R15) to use the product and locks their customers into an expensive 2 year commitment.

If DTV let customers know about what issues existed upfront, they may sell fewer advanced receivers, but they would also have fewer dissatisfied customers.

Better yet, if DTV identified the issues, let their customers know the plans to resolve the issues, and gave their customers options to limit the 2-year commitment, there wouldn't be any dissatisfied customers.

For those of you who say that DTV won't do this because they need to make money for their shareholders, I disagree. Dissatisfied customers don't usually result in long-term success for a customer.

Plus DTV is setting themselves up for a class-action lawsuit. And that isn't good for anyone.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Class action lawsuit?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Upstream said:


> Plus DTV is setting themselves up for a class-action lawsuit. And that isn't good for anyone.


That will not help anyone other than the attorneys. Anyone that feels they must report DTV in regards to the HR20 or the R15 should file a complain with their State's Attorney Generals Office and with the Better Business Bureau.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Upstream said:


> Actually it is DTV's job and legal obligation to notify their customers of known problems with their products.


Gee, I wish car companies would do that. Yea, they do a recall when the government forces their hands but they also have those nifty service bulletins that they send the dealers that inform the service department of know problems with a make/model, which they don't tell you about unless you go in and say you're having a problem.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

RAD -- When advertising or selling products, auto companies are required to inform you of known limitations with their products before you purchase them. So is Direct TV.


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## Cerus (Feb 8, 2007)

Upstream said:


> RAD -- When advertising or selling products, auto companies are required to inform you of known limitations with their products before you purchase them. So is Direct TV.


Out of all the times I've purchased a car, never has the dealer told me of any limitations the car has...that's not good business. Do they tell people purchasing a Ford Escort that it's not meant to go off road? No. Is the car built to go off road? No. It's called common sense. If the car has an issue, it's the manufacturers job to release that information when they discover it.

I don't know why you people insist D* is breaking the law by selling products with a few known bugs. Every piece of technology has problems. Is MS telling customers about the problems in Windows Vista? No. Is Vista going to have problems? You bet your @ss it will. If MS waited until all the bugs where fixed in their OS before releasing it, we would all still be using Windows 95. If people do not know by now that new technology may or may not have bugs, then they don't deserve to own it. We've all been around long enough to know that with every new advance, there are going to be hurdles.

They can only test things so far. It's only when the product is used by thousands or millions of people that the problems surface. If they took the time and resources needed to test everything on a new product, it would be years or decades before it would ever be released. That would benefit no one and technological advancements would slow to a halt if companies operated that way. Whether we like it or not, we are all beta testers for new products...if you don't like it, don't buy it. But D* is breaking no laws by selling the products.

BTW, if you call D* and ask if there are any known issues with their products, they will tell you.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Cerus said:


> Out of all the times I've purchased a car, never has the dealer told me of any limitations the car has...that's not good business. Do they tell people purchasing a Ford Escort that it's not meant to go off road? No. Is the car built to go off road? No. It's called common sense. If the car has an issue, it's the manufacturers job to release that information when they discover it.
> 
> I don't know why you people insist D* is breaking the law by selling products with a few known bugs. Every piece of technology has problems. Is MS telling customers about the problems in Windows Vista? No. Is Vista going to have problems? You bet your @ss it will. If MS waited until all the bugs where fixed in their OS before releasing it, we would all still be using Windows 95. If people do not know by now that new technology may or may not have bugs, then they don't deserve to own it. We've all been around long enough to know that with every new advance, there are going to be hurdles.
> 
> ...


True. However, with regard to the HR20 DVR, one would expect it to be able to record and play back television in a somewhat acceptable manner. Record/playback is not off road.

With Vista and other new products, there are bugs, to be true. However, the out-of-box experience with Vista will definitely not delete 70 percent of the material I expect to see when opening a document, as my pre-12A HR20 did to material it attempted to record. If Vista were that flawed for any number of customers who purchased it, those customers would be correct to complain. It would not be viewed as a mere hurdle on the way to progress.

For every "if you don't like it, don't buy it" I see posted, I think "if they can't build it, don't sell it". Each company has to identify the point at which it thinks its product is ready for shipping. Not all will get it right. When a company gets it wrong, it should identify its afflicted customers and publicly address the issue. In this case, simply allowing ailing HR20 customers to get out of their 2-year commitment, or offering monthly partial refunds for lost programming a customer has paid for that an ailing HR20 has mangled would be a fine gesture.

Just because every 20th shuttle explodes, it doesn't mean we should accept it.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

dhaakenson said:


> Just because every 20th shuttle explodes, it doesn't mean we should accept it.


Last I checked, my HR20 didn't kill anyone.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Cerus said:


> Out of all the times I've purchased a car, never has the dealer told me of any limitations the car has...that's not good business. Do they tell people purchasing a Ford Escort that it's not meant to go off road? No. Is the car built to go off road? No. It's called common sense. If the car has an issue, it's the manufacturers job to release that information when they discover it.
> 
> I don't know why you people insist D* is breaking the law by selling products with a few known bugs.


Cerus -- maybe I oversimplified.

The Ford Escort is not designed to go off-road. If they advertised that it can go off-road, that is deceptive advertising. If they advertised it as a comparable to a Hummer, then you would assume it could go off-road, so that is deceptive advertising. If the Ford Escort could not go faster than 40 mph, they would need to disclose that as well, since the reasonable expectation is that a car can safely travel at higher speeds.

It is not against the law for DTV to sell products with known bugs. But it is against the law for DTV to advertise their advanced receivers as having certain capabilities, knowing that those capabilities are limited because of bugs.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

Capmeister said:


> Last I checked, my HR20 didn't kill anyone.


not directly.

but just read about peoples' SO's and their reaction when they lose their 'american idol' show to a keep or delete bug! 

people take this stuff SERIOUSLY. else, we wouldn't be here on this forum.

I have one direct-tivo and one home-built PVR. but some people here are MEGA serious about their tv habit. sigfiles are full of 'I have 3 hr20 recorders' lines. that's SERIOUS involvement in the hobby. and yes, tempers run high when you mess with a man's programming 

humor: imagine if this happened to books and magazines. you borrow a book from the library or buy one at a bookstore, take it home, sit it on your nighttable and then when you settle down for some reading, the book vanishes!

how many of those indicidents (bizarre as the analogy is) would you accept before hoopin' and hollerin' ?

when we plan for an event (to watch a show) and it magically disappears again and again, this wears THIN on people. not hard to understand at all.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

Cerus said:


> I don't know why you people insist D* is breaking the law by selling products with a few known bugs. Every piece of technology has problems.


'a few known bugs' ??

how about 'the thing won't perform what its designed to do on a consistent basis'.

"warranty of merchantiability" is a phrase that bears repeating. if you sell a screwdriver and it is made of such soft metal that it won't turn screws, then its NOT fit for the purpose it was sold for. you have a legal right to your money back if the product does not perform for the primary purpose intended. (at least that's how I understand this legal concept).

I'm very surprised there isn't a class action by now. there certainly is grounds.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Cerus said:


> BTW, if you call D* and ask if there are any known issues with their products, they will tell you.


To quote a CSR from yesterday when I commented on the reliability of the unit "It's one of our most solid units, you just might have to RESET it once in a while.".


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

as an alternate data point, a friend of mine recently called DTV (he's a several year SD customer of theirs) and asked about going high def.

he's very very technical and maybe that was the key issue, but apparently when he asked about their hr20 and he commented he knew about this forum and all its bugs, the CSR actually recommended he NOT get this unit and just sit tight and hang on for a few months before checking back!

so there's at least one data point of CSR NOT trying to force an hr20 on an existing customer.

surprised?


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Again, these threads could be generated via ELIZA at this point, they're that repetitive 

My argument is that while D* felt compelled to get the HR20 out, the decision to rush the HR20 to market before it was ready has had *predictable *and unfortunate consequences for many people that are now leasing one. They knew the varied environment into which the HR20 would be deployed (it's their own customers) so it's not like that part was a surprise either. And they knew what the "bar" was for their customers in terms of DVR performance (R10, HR10, Series 1 DirecTivos).

Therefore:

a) DirecTV deserves every single criticism hurled its way (POC/POS/junk) by people that have an HR20, pay D* good money for programming and deal with the problems every day/week.

b) It's also a totally acceptable response to "focus on the positive" (whether or not you have issues) and try to "help D* out" with the CE releases, posting issues on the appropriate threads, etc.

These approaches appeal to you based on your personality type, how much you care about/use your TV service and how much marital stress a IKD bug causes ;-)

Moreover, just because other companies have terrible service doesn't mean D* gets a pass. For example, DirecTV should not be "aspiring" to be seen as "as good as" a cell phone companies - who are known for having some of the least consumer-friendly policies on the planet. Programming credits are nice, allowing really disgruntled customers to get out of their contracts without penalty is even better, and would probably go a long way towards placating the angry hordes. Offering the equally-buggy R15 isn't a great solution, but perhaps R10s or HR10s as "temporary" replacements with a "free HR20 upgrade coupon" might also be good. Having a flexible approach for each customer's unique situation would be very forward thinking.

Remember that one of the traditional selling points of satellite has been that they were better than the competition (picture quality, equipment, channel line-up, service). If that is no longer the case, they are headed for a world of hurt, because cable is significantly "easier" than satellite for most to install, and often comes with better bundled discounts for Internet + phone service.

Again, as someone on the sidelines, but who is a long-time D* customer, I want them to have a stable, functioning HD DVR. Actually, I want them to have a *great* HD DVR, so I can feel totally comfortable sticking around. I'm sticking with my HR10 and R10 for now, since they work ok, but as MPEG4 national HD channels get released, I'll only stick with D* if the HR20 *really works*. For me, if I'm basically reading the same issue threads (bi-weekly releases with "stability fixes") for the next 6 months and D* doesn't abandon their product as fatally flawed and do something else, I'll leave. I left E* because they were too slow to abandon the original Dishplayers and D* had a compelling alternative (Series 1 DirecTivos).

It's long been time to abandon the R15 (which I know is built on a different platform), but D* hasn't done that yet. So I guess it's just wait and see/hope.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

linuxworks said:


> 'a few known bugs' ??
> 
> how about 'the thing won't perform what its designed to do on a consistent basis'.
> 
> ...


This is a wonderful legal point (the warranty). It also applies to housing. Housing that is sold/rented has an implied "warranty of habitability". No matter what your rental contract says, you cannot be forced to pay rent if, for example, your heat goes off in the middle of winter, causing the inside temp to drop to 40 degrees and the landlord refuses to fix it.

The general principle is that people can put all sorts of clauses in legal contracts that can easily be ruled illegal/invalid. D* could say, "If you fail to pay your bill we get to kill you", you could sign it, but the judge would rule that contract invalid (on a number of grounds, including your inalieable right to life).

As linuxworks points out, this is the root for any number of successful lawsuits (class action or otherwise).


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## Cerus (Feb 8, 2007)

There really isn't any bottom line to all of this but I will make several points.

1) When dealing with such a large company, it's not always reasonable to expect each representative to know or say the same things. Each one is their own person and often come up with their own answers to typical questions. Some are new and give the wrong answers, some just assume they are right without knowing any better. They do have extensive training but poorly trained reps do fall through the cracks. So as far as what one particular CSR might tell you about the unit may or may not be different than another. One thing that is the same between all of them is the fact that they are there to make money. 

2) These are new technological devices. You can't possibly expect them to be perfect. They also have deadlines to meet when it comes to releasing new products. If they higher ups want it out by a certain date, then it has to be out bugs and all. They do their best but they can't test all of it and as I've said, it's only when it's hit the masses that certain problems arise. For all you know, all their test units worked fine or fine most of the time. In terms of technology, "most of the time" means ready for release.

3) Like Earl has said time and time again. The contract is for programming. The contract is there for a reason. If they didn't have it, they would have people canceling all the time to switch to a better deal and then back again. They would lose tons of money if they allowed people to this. If you don't want a contract then purchase all your equipment and do the install yourself. But you're going to be paying out the @ss for all that. Do you honestly believe you are entitled to free equipment and the option to cancel two days later and stick DTV with the bill?

4) Enough with the class actions. DTV states that once the equipment is received, all sales are final. My HR20 ($99) is coming on the 15th of March. I'm getting a new dish, new multi switch and a free install. I had to agree to a 2yr agreement. The HR20 is worth nearly $800, who knows how much the dish and installation costs. Do you not think that's fair of DTV to lock me into a commitment so they know they won't be out any money if I happen to change my mind a month later? I get something and they get something...that's called business. If I'm not satisfied with the HR20, I have absolutely no grounds to file any kind of lawsuit. I can however call DTV and get it fixed or replaced and they are more than willing to help their customers.

Even if I wasn't reading these forums and wasn't able to see everyones experiences with the HR20, good or bad, I would still not fault DTV for any problems I might have. These devices are still in their infancy and being a technology buff, I know to expect problems. As for compensation....DTV gives out all kinds of credits on a daily basis. Money, free programming etc. Think about all the customers they have to deal with on a daily basis that call in demanding credits. How many of those are calm customers with legit problems and how many are just fishing for handouts?

You expect far too much from them and what you do get, you take for granted. The HR20 was rushed because people wanted it sooner than later. It was rushed because they have deadlines to make. If you aren't happy with the results, then don't buy it. But understand that if you do, whether you know of issues or not, that it could have issues.

As far as the MS example goes...you don't get a refund 6 months down the road of using Vista after you discover it has bugs. You have to wait for it to get updated. If you think a Windows crash can't ruin your PC and all the data on your HDD then you haven't used PC's for very long. DTV is no more obligated to tell you the HR20 has some bugs any more than MS is obligated to tell you their OS could cause a fatal crash.


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

Well said, Cerus.


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## Steve Robertson (Jun 7, 2005)

KurtV said:


> Well said, Cerus.


I agree rxcept the only problem I have with the 2 year areement is if I have a bad box and it needs replacing the the clock starts again that I don't think is fair


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Cerus said:


> There really isn't any bottom line to all of this but I will make several points.
> 
> 1) When dealing with such a large company, it's not always reasonable to expect each representative to know or say the same things. Each one is their own person and often come up with their own answers to typical questions. Some are new and give the wrong answers, some just assume they are right without knowing any better. They do have extensive training but poorly trained reps do fall through the cracks. So as far as what one particular CSR might tell you about the unit may or may not be different than another. One thing that is the same between all of them is the fact that they are there to make money.
> 
> ...


1. No argument there. It is hit or miss with humans speaking on the phone at Directv.

2. Your low expectations are fine for you, but not for others, especially if they fall into the "most of the time" category. HD DVRs are not new technology, as has been repeated over and over. Yes, Directv is launching new technology (MPEG4 HD via local stations), but the concept/delivery of a reliable HD DVR is not new. I hope your new arrival on March 15 doesn't fall into the "most of the time bucket," but if it does, you sound like you will be cool with it.

3. Geez, cable doesn't require a contract. You can quit any time. Drop off the stuff. No problem. By moving to the cell phone company model, Directv is taking a risk if they can't deliver reliable hardware (at least with cellphones, you have a dizzying array of hardware to choose from). Jcricket is right. Each person should be handled on a case by case basis, which shows more sensitivity to customer issues/problems during these turbulent times.

And while the contract is for programming, if you can't access the programming (or record it and view it) because the programming delivery method is faulty in your specific case, saying that the contract remains valid will get you on the wrong end of a lawsuit every time. Check with your lawyer, I did (just as a point of reference, not to file any lawsuits).

4. See #3. You are sadly uninformed about contract law. And there is no sale here, only a lease. No, locking customers into a commitment just will only work if they get this HR20 mess straightened out. Otherwise, it could send high-paying customers flying out the door, risking the repercussions of breaking the so-called contract. Jcricket is right on his rental analogy as well. Contracts are a two-way street.

Finally, you of course have the right to exonerate Directv from any fault/blame, no matter what problems you have. Other people obviously have the right to feel differently, especially long-time, high-paying customers who got used to Directv's high level of quality, and now face something entirely different during this transition to HD and all it entails.

Fishing for handouts? Maybe. But I never received a single credit on my Directv bill (and I didn't ask for it, the retention rep offered it to me) until September 2006, when I began my transition to the brave new world of MPEG4 HD recording and playback. No arm-twisting needed. I just called to register my installation problems, and she offered before I even knew credits were an option.

Again, for the umpteenth time, if the HR20 had worked as it says it works on the very box it came in (when you get yours, be sure to read about all the great features listed on the box), none of these posts would have ever happened. And DBSTalk would still mainly be a place for satellite TV buffs to trade tips and secrets. By assuming the role of Directv's de facto sounding board/beta testing site, the bad comes with the good. For better or worse, DBSTalk has also become the lightning rod for a small group (not all) of disgruntled HR20 owners who expected much more from their satellite TV provider. I'd say that Directv is probably glad that all of the hostile people who have had poor experiences are posting here, rather than calling them every day a recording is missed or the box freezes up. It might even be part of their plan to handle the unhappy people overflow. Who knows? Nothing would surprise me at this point.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Well said, TStarn.

However I disagree with your comment that dealing with humans is hit or miss. If the rogue CSR were the exception, I would agree. But you can call DTV with the same question 5 times and get 5 different answers from 5 different CSRs. That suggests a systemic issue, not a problem with a few people who don't know what they're doing. That makes bad customer service a DTV management problem, not a bad CSR problem.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

If the 2 year commitment was for the service and not the hardware, well then why do different hardware have different commitments? 

Cheers,
Tom


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

tibber said:


> If the 2 year commitment was for the service and not the hardware, well then why do different hardware have different commitments?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Good question, I just figured since Earl says the commitment is for the programming and not the hardware, then it was right. No matter, though, if you can't really get want you want, Directv would still technically be in breach of contract, it seems. There is another thread where the poster up and quit Directv and just explained he was not getting what he paid for and left, no pro-rata fee due.

Here it is....http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79753

His description is near the end, so maybe Directv is loosening up in light of the HR20 situation. Not sure if everyone would get the same release. If so, that's a major concession by Directv.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Upstream said:


> Well said, TStarn.
> 
> However I disagree with your comment that dealing with humans is hit or miss. If the rogue CSR were the exception, I would agree. But you can call DTV with the same question 5 times and get 5 different answers from 5 different CSRs. That suggests a systemic issue, not a problem with a few people who don't know what they're doing. That makes bad customer service a DTV management problem, not a bad CSR problem.


Hmmmm. Good point. I don't call them much anymore.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

tibber said:


> If the 2 year commitment was for the service and not the hardware, well then why do different hardware have different commitments?


It possibly represents that they have a greater investment in DVRs and HD equipment and it takes a longer period of service to recover that investment (ignoring the fact that with leasing, they expense it in the year the equipment is delivered). Hmm, are we talking about two sets of books?


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

Steve Robertson said:


> I agree rxcept the only problem I have with the 2 year areement is if I have a bad box and it needs replacing the the clock starts again that I don't think is fair


is that how it works? that seems wrong.

when I buy a camera, for example, and I have it fixed during warranty, you think my warranty auto-extends as if it was a brand new camera?

you nuts or something?? [grin] 

this sounds highly unethical to auto-renew a comittment if THEIR gear breaks on you.

(are you sure this is the actual policy?)


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

KurtV said:


> Well said, Cerus.


Uh, Cerus has his contract law all wrong so I don't believe a "well said" is in order.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

Cerus said:


> 2) These are new technological devices. You can't possibly expect them to be perfect.


I'm toying around with a demo copy of sage-tv right now. its not perfect, but guess what - no lockups, no reboots and no 'lost shows'. and this is a much smaller operation (I would think) than the big pocketed DTV company can afford. this is just one example. there are MANY good pvr programs out there, some free, some commercial. some run on commodity pc hardware and some are semi-embedded.

but this is NOT new stuff and not rocket science. 10 yrs ago, sure. this excuse won't fly today, though.



> 3) Like Earl has said time and time again. The contract is for programming. The contract is there for a reason. If they didn't have it, they would have people canceling all the time to switch to a better deal and then back again.


you are arguing for a business model. its ONE business model. cable has another one; theirs does not lock you in (I can't believe I'm defending The Devil(tm) himself, here, LOL). but cable has chosen an alternate business model. at the very least it proves that there isn't ONE that all vendors in this space have to use.



> 4) Enough with the class actions. DTV states that once the equipment is received, all sales are final.


this may be helpful (even if not stricly authoritative):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

linuxworks said:


> I'm toying around with a demo copy of sage-tv right now. its not perfect, but guess what - no lockups, no reboots and no 'lost shows'. and this is a much smaller operation (I would think) than the big pocketed DTV company can afford. this is just one example. there are MANY good pvr programs out there, some free, some commercial. some run on commodity pc hardware and some are semi-embedded.
> 
> but this is NOT new stuff and not rocket science. 10 yrs ago, sure. this excuse won't fly today, though.
> 
> ...


Good stuff, on the Wiki link.


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## ronrico51 (Feb 13, 2007)

Cerus said:


> There really isn't any bottom line to all of this but I will make several points.
> 
> 1) When dealing with such a large company, it's not always reasonable to expect each representative to know or say the same things. Each one is their own person and often come up with their own answers to typical questions. Some are new and give the wrong answers, some just assume they are right without knowing any better. They do have extensive training but poorly trained reps do fall through the cracks. So as far as what one particular CSR might tell you about the unit may or may not be different than another. One thing that is the same between all of them is the fact that they are there to make money.
> 
> ...


If Vista has the same failure rate as the HR20, class action suits will be abounding. D* has no excuse for releasing a product that flat out doesn't work right for a fairly measurable percent of the time. I've seen all sorts of numbers on this website, but about 50% of the people polled give it at rating of "C" or worse. All you Directv homers make me laugh (and groan) when you commend D* for allowing you to help them fix their product.
That being said, I will be getting an HR20 in a couple of weeks. If it does not work, I will be outta here, buy a Series 3 Tivo, and lick my wounds. Peace.


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## Cerus (Feb 8, 2007)

Steve Robertson said:


> I agree rxcept the only problem I have with the 2 year areement is if I have a bad box and it needs replacing the the clock starts again that I don't think is fair


Getting a unit replaced because of failure does not affect your contract.



tstarn said:


> 2. Your low expectations are fine for you, but not for others, especially if they fall into the "most of the time" category. HD DVRs are not new technology, as has been repeated over and over. Yes, Directv is launching new technology (MPEG4 HD via local stations), but the concept/delivery of a reliable HD DVR is not new. I hope your new arrival on March 15 doesn't fall into the "most of the time bucket," but if it does, you sound like you will be cool with it.


I do expect their products and services to live up to their claims BUT, I also understand that things can/do go wrong. With any new device that was rushed to the masses, it's common sense to expect some problems. These devices are still new in comparison to other technologies out there. New can still apply to a device that's been out for 10 years but on a very small scale. The more people that own a particular type of device, the better those devices will perform. That all falls back to the point that there is only so much testing they can do before they have to get it out to the masses and see what other issues arise. I've yet to find a single post or review of any PVR that is 100% perfect.



> 3. Geez, cable doesn't require a contract. You can quit any time. Drop off the stuff. No problem. By moving to the cell phone company model, Directv is taking a risk if they can't deliver reliable hardware (at least with cellphones, you have a dizzying array of hardware to choose from). Jcricket is right. Each person should be handled on a case by case basis, which shows more sensitivity to customer issues/problems during these turbulent times.


If D* were to do away with contracts and still offer such huge discounts on products, installs and services they would be at a huge risk. With all the different companies out there pushing for customers with new deals, incentives etc, they would have so many new sign ups and cancellations they would "crash" so to speak. The contracted installers would be backed up for months.



> 4. See #3. You are sadly uninformed about contract law. And there is no sale here, only a lease. No, locking customers into a commitment just will only work if they get this HR20 mess straightened out. Otherwise, it could send high-paying customers flying out the door, risking the repercussions of breaking the so-called contract. Jcricket is right on his rental analogy as well. Contracts are a two-way street.


Sadly I am not. Sale or lease, it remains the same and in many cases, leases are more strict. If memory serves me, leasing a car requires you to keep that car for a certain amount of time. They are working on the problems as fast as they can, what more do you expect? Their contract is very specific and covers all the basis. Every customer who signed up, legally agreed to that contract and must abide by it and any clauses it may contain. When I ordered my HR20, that constitutes a sale. I'm getting a piece of equipment and they are getting some money from me. They even said once I receive and active it, the sale is final. The word sale isn't the point, whatever word you use, the point is that once they install and activate it, I can't change my mind.



Upstream said:


> Well said, TStarn.
> 
> However I disagree with your comment that dealing with humans is hit or miss. If the rogue CSR were the exception, I would agree. But you can call DTV with the same question 5 times and get 5 different answers from 5 different CSRs. That suggests a systemic issue, not a problem with a few people who don't know what they're doing. That makes bad customer service a DTV management problem, not a bad CSR problem.


The obvious explanation is human nature. We aren't robots programmed to say the exact same thing. People have a mind of their own and no matter the amount of training, people tend to alter the things they are told. Tell one person you won $1,000 dollars and wait until that cycles down through 100 people. It will end up saying you won $1,000,000,000, a free car, a new house and were made president of the United States. They are checked up on and are given reviews, but that's after the fact. I can't think of a single company I've called that didn't have the same 5x5 issue....it's not just D*.

As for the Wiki link, how many actually read it?



> An implied warranty can be expressly disclaimed in a sales contract by the use of specific language, such as the words, "as is" or "with all faults". Such language must be conspicuous in the contract, e.g., in a different kind of print or font that makes it stand out.


D* has such disclaimers. Those that think I don't understand the law regarding D* and their contract need to read their contracts. A contract isn't one specific thing that applies to everything. Every contract is different. That website merely states the basic function of an implied contract.



ronrico51 said:


> If Vista has the same failure rate as the HR20, class action suits will be abounding.


I can think of no instance where anyone has sued MS because their OS crashed and ruined their data and that happens ALL the time. Windows ME was an utter joke, 95 and 98 crashed all the time and so does XP. In the 10 years I've used MS OS, I can't count on all fingers and toes x100 all the times it's crashed on me and I've lost all of my data.

The bottom line is this, I do expect D* to live up to my expectations (which are quite high) but I'm also very understanding of the issues they might have. I understand that the HR20 is still new and still has bugs. While the actual technology has been around for a while, it's still new. Once we reach the point where as many people have this type of device as people have a DVD player, the technology will be stable and issues will be few and far between. Given the other options out there, I would much rather stick it out with D* and have more bang for my buck than deal with a horrible, over priced cable company with the worst customer service I've ever seen.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Cerus said:


> Getting a unit replaced because of failure does not affect your contract.
> 
> I do expect their products and services to live up to their claims BUT, I also understand that things can/do go wrong. With any new device that was rushed to the masses, it's common sense to expect some problems. These devices are still new in comparison to other technologies out there. New can still apply to a device that's been out for 10 years but on a very small scale. The more people that own a particular type of device, the better those devices will perform. That all falls back to the point that there is only so much testing they can do before they have to get it out to the masses and see what other issues arise. I've yet to find a single post or review of any PVR that is 100% perfect.
> 
> ...


Each to his own, I guess. But again, they can put all the disclaimers in they want, if they aren't abiding by their half of the bargain, they are in breach, no matter how hard they are trying to fix it. Contract law does have some very basic tenets that apply across the board, even if each contract is "different." Plenty of case law on that issue.

If your experience had rivaled some of those with worst-case scenarios (3-4 HR20s, yet still having problems, very unreliable recording, multiple RBRs, etc.), you might feel differently about how much slack you'd be willing to cut Directv. But since your specific situation is tolerable, I don't blame you for sticking with Directv. I am still on the fence (waiting to see how things shake out during the balance of 2007), but others are at wit's end because their HR20s are performing very poorly. The point of this thread is that any pressure that can be applied to make Directv run even faster in getting it fixed for everyone is viewed, by some (certainly not by others), as a good thing.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

Cerus said:


> I do expect their products and services to live up to their claims BUT, I also understand that things can/do go wrong. With any new device that was rushed to the masses, it's common sense to expect some problems.


lets replace 'pvr' with truck tires.

suppose some company got tired of paying high prices for quality designed and built tires. they were buying and relabelling someone else's quality tires and while it worked out well, there simply wasn't enough profit in it for the greedy bastiges.

so they designed and built their own tire. cut out the expert builder - its just rubber and some steel, right? what could be so hard?

so they rush to market and guess what - some accidents occur due to shoddy 'DIY' type quality.

now the people who bore the brunt of this 'brand switch', how are they supposed to feel? just tell them to be patient while the new vendor works out its kinks in this new go-it-alone kind of design?

you see where I'm going here?

if this ficticious tire story really happened (well, ford comes to mind, sort of) then there would be some pretty huge lawsuits. because this was a BAD move and there needs to be shared pain. its how our society works. you don't reward bad behavior.

hoisting inferior product on a customer and asking him to be 'understanding' while you work out your own bugs is not something that should be done. not to paying customers. what we have is an extended extended beta program. except they turned on the 'pay us' switch way too early on non-proven product.

what I'm saying is that there should be ZERO sympathy for DTV. they brought this on themselves. no one held a gun to their head to exit the tivo contract in such a hurry. at least parallel your box with theirs for long enough so that: a) customers have a choice and b) you have time to really get your own 'go it alone' box fully working before severing the business relationship with tivo.

this was just a very very bad business move combined with some pretty bad engineering.

but it was all DTV's doing. they had full choice in all of this. I have no sympathy for the company in this regard. they gambled and so far, they are losing customer mindshare big-time, daily.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

Cerus said:


> I can think of no instance where anyone has sued MS because their OS crashed and ruined their data and that happens ALL the time. Windows ME was an utter joke, 95 and 98 crashed all the time and so does XP. In the 10 years I've used MS OS, I can't count on all fingers and toes x100 all the times it's crashed on me and I've lost all of my data.


again, as I said before, the diff here is that (so far, at least) M$ doesn't lock down your drive to the motherboard serial# !!

on pcs, macs, even unix boxen, you are free to remove your drive, back it up, even dupe it fully and clone it. so any data loss is partly, at some level, your own fault. you CAN force checkpoints (on fancy san disk arrays, for example). you HAVE some power over your paid-for box.

otoh, with set top boxen, we have very little control, even on a device that we sort of paid for. we can't open the box (its taped sealed), we can't legally backup our own data (a new law needs to be made or some bad ones (dmca, cough cough) need to be repealed!), we can't do much other than press a stoopid red button ;( and watch our shows go bye-bye.

give us back control over our bits. we paid to receive and store those bits. let us do our own disk mirroring or space shifting and THEN if the box needs a rbr, well, at least I could have had a copy on dvd-r or a remote disk, etc.

when you tie our hands AND force data loss, that's where I say STOP!


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## cbearnm (Sep 6, 2006)

SO


Ummmmmm


Has all this attention from Jim Louderbeck done anything ?

Has he even checked out this thread, other than as a lurker. I haven't seen a post that indicates that he has.

While I think that Mr. Louderbeck is a decent correspondent, that's all I view him as. A decent person that does a decent job, but in the end he is a correspondent. Unless he has a passion about convincing his editors that this story should be covered, he will do another review of the lastest software update for the Zune, if that's what his editors tells him to do. (Yes, I know he IS an editor, but he still has to answer to higher ups). Folks need to realize that no matter how well intentioned reporters may be, the stories have to have traction to get air (or press) time. These issues are highly frustrating to our little community here, but in relationship to the millions of D* subs, it means relatively little.

I am sure that D* monitors these forums and that the feedback we give is valuable to them. But I also believe that they ARE working on the issues. Unless you are a former software engineer for a DVR company, I doubt that you have the proper knowledge of the complexities involved. Everyone elses job looks so much easier than what we do, until you have to do it. Even other software engineers have to acknowledge how tough it would be to jump into another discipline and be able to hit the ground running.

That doesn't excuse D* for these problems, but if I wasn't confident that they were working on it, I would leave. It's just that easy. Even if they charge me to do so, I would as well. I think that makes an even stronger statement. Believe me, the $150 cancellation charge is not how they want to make money. After all, this is TV, a luxury item, not an iron lung. Move on.

While I will concede that D* may have rushed this puppy out the door to soon, add my name to the list of people that are not having major issues with the box. But then, I also have my 10-250 still activated and will continue to do so.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

cbearnm said:


> But I also believe that they ARE working on the issues.


no one doubts that.



> Unless you are a former software engineer for a DVR company, I doubt that you have the proper knowledge of the complexities involved.


I don't accept that. real time event driven programming in an embedded environ is a kind of programming but pvr design isn't heads and shoulders above this kind of general discipline. if you've done design and engineering work on things that don't have keyboards and screens and yet do a dedicated function, going to a pvr software base isn't going to set you back months and months. I don't accept your premise, I guess.

what I do fault DTV with is the arrogance of THINKING that its just an easy project and that it CAN be effectively done in-house, for the first real time they've done this kind of thing.

the only way you can pull a first timer like this off is if you have star talent.

is there star talent in DTV's programming team?

does anyone see any evidence of such??


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Cerus said:


> I do expect their products and services to live up to their claims BUT, I also understand that things can/do go wrong. With any new device that was rushed to the masses, it's common sense to expect some problems.


I expect problems with new devices, but hold companies to a simple ethical code: You offer me a product to perform a specific function, and I give you money. And, laws are written and courts have ruled that I have a proper expectation that the product will perform. I should not anticipate nor must I tolerate woes large enough to void the intended use of the product. If a DVR can't record and properly play back television, it's a failure, especially after repeated software attempts to fix it.

I can see no reason to rush any device to the masses that trumps stabilizing its core purpose. Why ship a toaster that doesn't brown bread? And if you've already shipped the toaster and can't seem to fix it, make amends with your afflicted customers.

I have no way of knowing whether the HR20 was rushed to market, as I expect any company handles the launch of a flagship device with care, craftsmanship and forethought. But regardless, if D* leases a device to record and play back television, and the device fails to do that, then anticipation of problems with new devices is a mute point, and D* should publicly offer to refund a portion of a customer's monthly fee for lost programming, and a no-penalty escape from the 2-year commitment that begins when a failed device is turned on.



Cerus said:


> If memory serves me, leasing a car requires you to keep that car for a certain amount of time. They are working on the problems as fast as they can, what more do you expect?


There isn't a court in the land that would agree to require a customer to keep paying for the duration of a lease if the car were unable to function properly, no matter how quickly the vendor flailed, unsuccessfully, to fix the car. The law is on the side of the customer.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

linuxworks said:


> the only way you can pull a first timer like this off is if you have star talent.
> 
> is there star talent in DTV's programming team?
> 
> does anyone see any evidence of such??


Excellent point. After an in-house ramp up of its homegrown DVR, field tested with employees, then beta tested for months by its customers, with a rapid release of software updates, customers still report receiving multiple units that fail to properly perform the basic functions of a DVR.

I'd say the evidence shows that D*'s team, either management or programming, or both, is a failure.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Cerus, - You're just clearly wrong about contract law. Parties on one end of a contract cannot be forced to continue to pay the parties on the other end if that party fails to provide the agreed upon product/service. It doesn't matter if it's a lease or rental agreement or even an item you purchased. In fact, in the case of ongoing agreements (like leasing and rent) the other side has to continue to hold up its end of the bargain in order to compel you to pay.

Sure, you can't just break a lease or rental agreement because you "feel like it", but I (and others) have gone to court and affirmed the right to withhold rent from landlords that fail to fix the heaters in their buildings. Similarly, if the landlord doesn't do some key things (like maintain functioning toilets, potable water, etc.) you can completely legally walk away in the middle of your rental agreement and not only owe the landlord nothing, but get your security deposit back. 

In the case of leasing a car, if the dealer refuse to repair the car for any manufacturing defects during the warranty period you can similarly walk away. In most cases, leased cars are covered by the lemon law as well - if the same defect is repaired and recurs three times, you can return the car for a full refund (which would cover your down payment). Of course, I've almost never heard of an honest dealer doing this, because they know the law isn't on their side.

Of course, in most of those cases, of course, the car manufacturer will either give you another car (same make/model) or offer you something similar in their line-up as an exchange (usually without extending your lease). That satisfies most people.

D*, OTOH, has chosen to say: We have no alternative HD DVR, so you're SOL, stick with us until we fix it. This may be their "party line", but it won't hold up in court. It's a typical big company response, but it's just not how the laws governing parties in contracts work. If D* said, "we recognize there are problems, but please use this other HD DVR" that would be different. But since/if they can't, they are compelled to let people out of their contracts, regardless of how they are currently worded.


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## nick1817 (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm not sure about your interpretation of Contract law either, cricket.

I know, for example, the rent question is handled different in TN. Unsuitable living conditions allow you to break lease, but not waive rent, altogether.

A lot of times, its handled differently in different locations. 

Which means I could be wrong if a judge changes his position here tomorrow. Who knows.

If this is all being discussed in regards to the two year commitment tied in to the receipt of an HR-20, its a valid point. However, once the "customer" pays a bill, or uses the service, they have accepted the terms. D*/ could continually replace units (basically rendering the service unusable), but still hold you to the contract, I would think. I doubt the Lemon Law applies to Consumer Electronics. Who knows though. I'm no expert.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

OK, there are differences, but you can break the lease if the other party (landlord in that case) fails to perform certain things. It doesn't matter that you signed a rental agreement that says, "If the tenant moves out for any reason before the end of 12 months, they owe the landord the remaining rent" - That clause is basically null and void.

In the case of satellite programming D* I would agree that you probably won't get back your up-front installation/HR20 cost, or the cost of programming already paid for. However, the implied warranty (this is a dual-tuner HD DVR, it can record and play back HD content reliably) means you can get out of 2-year commitment without paying an early termination fee (esp if, for example, you're on your third or fourth HR20). Obviously this requires returning the equipment you're leasing to D*, but that's not the point. The lemon law doesn't explicitly apply, but the implied warranty of merchantability certainly does. And an HD DVR that reguarly deletes content, fails to record, eats your recordings or reboots certainly fails to meet those basic standards.


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## nick1817 (Feb 12, 2007)

I am thinking the path they are taking is very simply that- The Warranty covers the hardware- they can replace them infinite- and keep you under the 2 year clause. As long as they data is sent and received, they are doing their part, service wise. 

There's a million different scenarios. I would think realistically, you'd be able to get out of the commitment within 30 days if you just can't get a working HR-20. After that, it'd be up in the air.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

nick1817 said:


> I am thinking the path they are taking is very simply that- The Warranty covers the hardware- they can replace them infinite- and keep you under the 2 year clause. As long as they data is sent and received, they are doing their part, service wise.
> 
> There's a million different scenarios. I would think realistically, you'd be able to get out of the commitment within 30 days if you just can't get a working HR-20. After that, it'd be up in the air.


There is a post recently that says Directv let the person out of his contract, no questions asked. So either it didn't happen, or Directv (or one of its "cancellation managers") is softening on this because it's happening more and more. Not sure.

Here's the direct post:
"I brought up the two year commitment and observed that I made the commitment under the expectation of receiving quality service. I then defined quality service as being able to schedule a recording, play back a watchable recording and be able to perform those functions with consistency. DirecTv has not met that criteria. There was no argument from DirecTv "service cancellation manager" (now, there's a job) on this point."

Here's the thread (you have to read down to find this post)
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79753


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

nick1817 said:


> I am thinking the path they are taking is very simply that- The Warranty covers the hardware- they can replace them infinite- and keep you under the 2 year clause. As long as they data is sent and received, they are doing their part, service wise.


not so fast, there! 

they are a SOLUTIONS vendor. they are responsible for the WHOLE solution.

in fact, this is one of my complaints. its not an open system. I can't add drives or upgrade things myself. its totally closed. they own it, hardware, software, service, delivery, all of it.

so given that, how can you be ok with the idea they can drop the ball on one of the handoffs?

you can't burn the candle at both ends. either you take full end to end responsibility or you let the users have some input and then you CAN 'blame' them for things like dropping shows. but given the current setup, I don't see how any user can be held at fault if the closed system 'breaks'. and yes, it only takes 1 link to break the whole chain. that's just how closed systems work. the blackbox effect, so to speak. if something inside a black box breaks, the vendor of the black box has to be called. as they say 'no user serviceable parts' inside. its all on them.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

nick1817 said:


> I am thinking the path they are taking is very simply that- The Warranty covers the hardware- they can replace them infinite- and keep you under the 2 year clause. As long as they data is sent and received, they are doing their part, service wise.


What?  So if they gave you a DVR without software, basically a pile-o-electronics they would fulfill their warranty obligation? I think not. They are selling a product, software include in the warranty.


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## nick1817 (Feb 12, 2007)

I am not agreeing with it, I am saying that is what they are doing.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

The results of the original post:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=80483


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## Armathius (Feb 7, 2007)

My opinion on this if ZDNet were to jump on this it would be fair and probably some of the people who are anti HR-20. Just look at the review they did of Windows Vista. It is fair. It points out the flaws, but is overly upbeat and positive although there are tons of (current) issues currently with the OS. ZDNet knows well of new technology and I think they would be very positive of the HR-20 and the actions D* has taken to work on it's current issues.

EDIT:
Whoops... guilty of posting before getting to the end of the thread. My statement would have been much more prominent had it been before Earl's posting of the article. LoL. I think I was right on though...


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