# What's a good ATSC Indoor Antenna?



## 325xia (Oct 28, 2006)

I'm currently using an old RS VHF/UHF Indoor Antenna. Not getting all of the OTA channels. I would like to buy one that is dedicated for HDTV. Any of the RS Line-up that are decent?
Thx


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

Try a Silver Sensor.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

I agree that the Silver Sensor is among the best indoor antennas. Just realize that indoor antennas are very limited in what they can do compared to a good outdoor or even attic-installed antenna.

For the best antenna advice specific to your neighborhood, check out the "Local HDTV Reception Forum" at http://www.avsforum.com.


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## 325xia (Oct 28, 2006)

Okay, thanks for the advice. I will look into Silver Sensor. I have to have an Indoor.


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## bret4 (Nov 22, 2006)

Just put up a CM4228A by channel master in the attic and it blows away the Radio shack U-75R I had. Picked up about 8 new channels that the U-75R didn't see. Nice it you have the attic space. Now I want to put it up on the roof to see what it can really do.


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## qlanus (Sep 22, 2006)

I am using a Silver Sensor on a system w/out access to an otherwise available roof-mounted antenna. Clearly the roof mount (attached to another HR-20) is superior but in my case (approx 25 mi from source antenna) the Silver Sensor gets pretty decent signal strength (say, 70-75 vs. the roof-mount of 90+). Still, not too bad - especially for $20-ish.


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## 506PIR (Sep 22, 2006)

Great resource for what antennas you should get is http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx
Tells you what type and what range antenna you need for your location.
A good place to browse for an antenna is 
http://www.antennasdirect.com
On the left side of the page it breaks down by many different categories of antenna.For example : short range,medium and long range.
Im looking at the Db2. It can be used for outdoor or indoor use. I think it has a range up to 30 miles. 
I might go with the silver sensor first. Im 28 miles away from the towers and I've heard people say they can get a pretty good signal from about that range.
Good luck to you


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## ericgo (Dec 16, 2006)

> I would like to buy one that is dedicated for HDTV


HDTV dedicated antenna is nonsense, there is no such thing. Marketing spin...

Silver sensor is a good one, CM4228 suggested above is better for sure, but it is a large outdoor antenna!

The first thing to do is to check with AntennaWeb which area you are in. With an indoor antenna there is a hope for yellow zone stations only...

You may also want to check the antenna reviews on "HDTV antenna labs", it looks like HDTVa and HDTVlp are good options too.


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## 325xia (Oct 28, 2006)

ericgo said:


> HDTV dedicated antenna is nonsense, there is no such thing. Marketing spin...
> 
> Silver sensor is a good one, CM4228 suggested above is better for sure, but it is a large outdoor antenna!
> 
> ...


Okay, Thanks. I will check those sites out. I will research before I buy. No big hurry.


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## dardia (Aug 20, 2006)

When I search for 07070, multiple story building, with an airport within 2 miles (it's more like 10 miles, but just for a "worst-case" scenario), I pick up only FOX and CBS in yellow. I pick up NBC, and ABC in red antenna types. These are the only 4 that I really care about, as I'd rather have real HD instead of HD-lite for the Super Bowl.

The problem is that I live in a condo building and my balcony only faces dead-east.

1) Does compass orientation matter that much for an indoor antenna?
2) Can a Silver Sensor potentially pick up "red - vhf" antenna typed stations?


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## mcbeevee (Sep 18, 2006)

dardia said:


> 1) Does compass orientation matter that much for an indoor antenna?
> 2) Can a Silver Sensor potentially pick up "red - vhf" antenna typed stations?


1) Yes...the Silver Sensor needs to be pointed toward the transmission towers

2) The Silver Sensor is UHF only, so it will not help if you have VHF HD channels


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

mcbeevee said:


> 2) The Silver Sensor is UHF only, so it will not help if you have VHF HD channels


If you need VHF, the Terk HDTVi is a decent alternative (looks like a Silver Sensor w/ the addition of "rabbit ears"). Most Terk stuff is overpriced junk, but I've found the HDTVi to work quite well.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

You won't find a lot of useful info on indoor antennas, mainly because reception is so variable depending on type of construction, direction of windows etc. The "customer reviews" you will see posted on some of the web buying sites are pretty worthless. And do not be fooled by the ads which tell you you need an HDTV antenna. There is NO DIFFERENCE between HDTV and regular signals as far as the antenna is concerned.
But if you need to start somewhere:

Go to antennaweb. Input your address not just your zip.
Any "yellow" stations you can POSSIBLY get with an indoor antenna. "Red" and above, probably not.
If all your digital stations are UHF, try the Silver Sensor (unamplified model). Not much good for VHF unless the transmitters are very close.
If you have VHF as well, try the Terk HDTVi. Only that one, not any of the other Terks - it's a clone of the Silver Sensor but has the added rabbit ears for VHF.
Try various locations for the antenna, maybe as high as possible.

If those don't work, then probably none of the indoor antennas will work. That's not 100%, sometimes you may find one of the other indoor antennas works for you because of your specific conditions, but not often.

Then you are into attic or outside antennas. here you usually need some expert advice. Post in the "local HDTV reception forum" of AVS forum, you will get advice from other people in your area.


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## ericgo (Dec 16, 2006)

> Does compass orientation matter that much for an indoor antenna?


I respectfully disagree with macbeevee and say: for most of us it doesn't matter. It depends a lot on the materials your house is built of and the environment you live in, in general. If your home is electromagnetically transparent, then yes, you should point an indoor antenna in the right direction. But typically, a signal picked up by an indoor antenna is bounced off the walls and other objects, i.e. there is no line of sight between the antenna and the towers.



bwaldron said:


> If you need VHF, the Terk HDTVi is a decent alternative (looks like a Silver Sensor w/ the addition of "rabbit ears"). Most Terk stuff is overpriced junk, but I've found the HDTVi to work quite well.


There is absolutely no chance HDTVi VHF rabbit ears will pick up a red area broadcast. To pull in a red zone station you need a directional antenna, and VHF directional antenna is a large, expensive and ugly thing. You need something like Winegard HD7080P, man...


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

325xia said:


> Okay, thanks for the advice. I will look into Silver Sensor. I have to have an Indoor.


Word of advice... Be careful with it. Mine was not made well and broke within the first few days of use.

I know, I know, you get what you pay for.

I have a neighbor that is using one with marginal success. It certainly is worth a try if an external or attic mount antenna install is not possible. Best of luck!


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## dardia (Aug 20, 2006)

Maybe I can convince Digital Media (out of Bridgeport, CT; our condo building's system operator) to install and manage an OTA antenna, run the cables into the wiring rooms on each floor, and then patch it into each apartment that requests it.

Contract time is coming up, and we could use this as a bargaining chip. We'll resign for 3 years, if and only if, we get OTA HD-capability installed and run.

Thanks for the input, fellas.


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## wakajawaka (Sep 27, 2006)

Another note about the Silver Sensor, while it works great it is a highly directional antenna, which means it has to be pointed in the direction of the towers. In my case I have towers in two completely different directions (about 90 deg apart) so I could only pick up a few stations at a time. So be sure and check antennaweb.org to see where your towers are.


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## dervari (Dec 1, 2005)

The solder joint on the backside of the F connector is very fragile. If you drop it the solder joint may break even though nothing appears to be wrong on the outside.


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## TreeFarm (Dec 4, 2006)

dardia said:


> Maybe I can convince Digital Media (out of Bridgeport, CT; our condo building's system operator) to install and manage an OTA antenna, run the cables into the wiring rooms on each floor, and then patch it into each apartment that requests it.
> 
> Contract time is coming up, and we could use this as a bargaining chip. We'll resign for 3 years, if and only if, we get OTA HD-capability installed and run.
> 
> Thanks for the input, fellas.


If you live in the condo as owners and not renters, then should talk to the board about installing a master antenna system. You probably have cable, but you can make the point that for the best HDTV, an OTA is required, and it would be in most owners interest to put a master antenna system in. There are competent businesses that can quote a system for you. They should be in the yellow pages.

You do not want a condo mangement company installing a master antenna system. I doubt they know their distribution amplifiers from the doughnuts.


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## MarkGSportsNut (Nov 30, 2006)

I have a RCA powered indoor HD antenna that I picked up at bestbuy. Sits on a shelf above my TV. I'm able to pull in all the Boston HD channels (+ Providence). I can't tell the difference between the Boston OTA and D* HD Locals.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

litzdog911 said:


> I agree that the Silver Sensor is among the best indoor antennas. Just realize that indoor antennas are very limited in what they can do compared to a good outdoor or even attic-installed antenna.
> 
> For the best antenna advice specific to your neighborhood, check out the "Local HDTV Reception Forum" at http://www.avsforum.com.


That's the best antenna advice anyone can give. I didn't read through this thread but searched to see if anyone pointed the OP to avsforum.com.

From my standpoint there are two sources to help in the decision of what antenna is best for your HD reception. The avsforum.com thread for your specific DMA and antennaweb.org. No offence to dbstalk.com, but that's not what we do here guys. No real need to have HR20 OTA antenna discussions here (other than tuner problems). Good referral litzdog. :biggthump


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## 325xia (Oct 28, 2006)

Thanks for all the help. I'm amazed at how far the HD signal travels. I am able to pick-up a lot of stations that I wasn't able to on the Analog version, (ie. NBC VHF vs. NBC HD). Same transmission site.


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## dardia (Aug 20, 2006)

TreeFarm said:


> If you live in the condo as owners and not renters, then should talk to the board about installing a master antenna system. You probably have cable, but you can make the point that for the best HDTV, an OTA is required, and it would be in most owners interest to put a master antenna system in. There are competent businesses that can quote a system for you. They should be in the yellow pages.
> 
> You do not want a condo mangement company installing a master antenna system. I doubt they know their distribution amplifiers from the doughnuts.


Agreed...we wouldn't have the condo management company install the antenna. We'd see if our DirecTV systems operator can install it for us. Digital Media also installed a T1 line to our building and patched it into each room. If not, then maybe we can have a separate company do it as you mentioned.


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## ruesch37 (Sep 14, 2006)

I have indoor antennas attached to both of my HR20s.

In the basement I use a Terk HDTVa- works great

In living room (wife's tv) I use a Radio Shack HDTV DA-5200, it is very small and it works great as well

I am 20-25 miles from the TV towers and get great HD reception from both antennas


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

bret4 said:


> Just put up a CM4228A by channel master in the attic and it blows away the Radio shack U-75R I had. Picked up about 8 new channels that the U-75R didn't see. Nice it you have the attic space. Now I want to put it up on the roof to see what it can really do.


I have a CM 4221 that was mounted in my attic. I mounted it on my chimney and lost reception of two channels. Your mileage may vary, but roof mounting vs. attic mounting is not necessarily better. BTW, I've been doing HD OTA since July 2001.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

325xia said:


> Thanks for all the help. I'm amazed at how far the HD signal travels. I am able to pick-up a lot of stations that I wasn't able to on the Analog version, (ie. NBC VHF vs. NBC HD). Same transmission site.


In Rancho Santa Fe, depending on geography, you could probably also get most of the LA channels if you point your antenna towards Mt. Wilson, roughly at 330 degrees for you.

I've been doing HD OTA since Jul 2001 with a CM 4221 antenna and a CM 9521 rotator mounted in the attic, initially to get LA HD stations because only KFMB in San Diego was broadcasting in HD. The distance to Mt. Wilson where all of the LA broadcast antennas are mounted at 6,000 ft., is 103 miles from my house.


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## TreeFarm (Dec 4, 2006)

dardia said:


> Agreed...we wouldn't have the condo management company install the antenna. We'd see if our DirecTV systems operator can install it for us. Digital Media also installed a T1 line to our building and patched it into each room. If not, then maybe we can have a separate company do it as you mentioned.


T1? Arrrgh. I'm having a fit of insane jealousy. No cable or DSL out here, and T1 for a single residence is waaaay out of reach. :money: :money: :money:


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## DJConan (Sep 14, 2006)

Before locals were offered in HD via dish, I was trying many things to pull in OTA HD content. I wasn't putting an antenna on my roof or in my attic. So I tried several amplified indoor antennas.

I've never tried the Silver Sensor, but I did have the best success with one that's nearly identical in design. It's amplified, nicer looking and also brings in VHF/UHF. Philips PHDTV3 in the $20's.

I've tried some other designs and none worked as well as this design. I think I live in a bit of a valley (a very small one) but it was always hit and miss with any indoor antenna I tried. According to antennaweb site, I'm like 25 miles from the towers and I was still lucky if I received a solid signal.

My sat radio uses terrestrial signals to aid the sat signal and the terrestrial signal is aweful at my house, but improves as soon as I get about a mile away. Same deal with AM radio stations. Terrible until I get a mile or two from my house.

I'd suggest that you buy a few from various stores and try them all. Keep the best and return the rest.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Radio Enginerd said:


> Word of advice... Be careful with it. Mine was not made well and broke within the first few days of use.


If I may ask, how do you use a TV antenna that you managed to break it?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I'd like to chime in to vote for not going for an "HDTV antenna". Given the number of people complaining about having trouble with their HR20 and a VHF digital station, I think a UHF only antenna may be a problem for quite a few.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

harsh said:


> If I may ask, how do you use a TV antenna that you managed to break it?


It's a common problem with the Silver Sensor...they aren't very well made...but they do work very well for what they are.


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## puffnstuff (Sep 2, 2006)

Whats a good outdoor antenna for about 40-50 miles I really want to try the winegard ss2000 but am confused about how far it will work .


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

puffnstuff said:


> Whats a good outdoor antenna for about 40-50 miles I really want to try the winegard ss2000 but am confused about how far it will work .


Go to antennaweb.org and put in your information and it will give you a VERY conservative estimate of what kind of antenna you might need (it tends to show that you need more antenna than actually required in our area). Once you have identified the "type" of antenna, go here:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

...and you can see what is available commercially. If you need only UHF in your area, there are some very good options. For easy terrain and some decent antenna height at your distance, the cheap U-75 from Radio Shack (25 bucks) might work. If you want a UHF killer antenna, the XG listed on that page is quite good.

If you need both VHF and UHF converage based on your HD being on both VHF and UHF, then the larger Channel Masters listed are good.

You can also go to avsforum, select local hdtv, select an area near you and ask the users what they are using to get a good pix.


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## puffnstuff (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm sorry really I was kinda just asking if the winegard is any good . I already did the other stuff . I really like it because of its size and apperance .


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

puffnstuff said:


> I'm sorry really I was kinda just asking if the winegard is any good . I already did the other stuff . I really like it because of its size and apperance .


Winegard and Channel Master are generally considered good antennas. Stay away from Terk. Biggest rule of thumb with antennas is that what works for one person may not work for another.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

puffnstuff said:


> I'm sorry really I was kinda just asking if the winegard is any good . I already did the other stuff . I really like it because of its size and apperance .


At that distance, no it is not a very good antenna.

Forget appearance...you want performance! Start from scratch and pick a different antenna...the Square Shooter is unlikely to work very well at that distance unless you are just plain lucky. It will not work on VHF worth a darn...poor design.


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## puffnstuff (Sep 2, 2006)

hasan said:


> At that distance, no it is not a very good antenna.
> 
> Forget appearance...you want performance! Start from scratch and pick a different antenna...the Square Shooter is unlikely to work very well at that distance unless you are just plain lucky. It will not work on VHF worth a darn...poor design.


Thanks hasan . I don't know what to do I am really confused having never needed or wanted ota . But I do now ( thanks santa ) and don't know really where to start (brands , quality) Don't really mind the money and I can install almost anything . So any help would be great . Need uhf and vhf rechecked distance to towers and 60 miles is the farthest away .


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

puffnstuff said:


> Thanks hasan . I don't know what to do I am really confused having never needed or wanted ota . But I do now ( thanks santa ) and don't know really where to start (brands , quality) Don't really mind the money and I can install almost anything . So any help would be great . Need uhf and vhf rechecked distance to towers and 60 miles is the farthest away .


Go back to my prior post where I gave you all the resources you need to make a good decision. If you can put up about anything, I would go with the large channel master for both VHF/UHF..that will protect you against the future.

If you go to www.antennaweb.org and put in your zip code et al, it will show you all the digitial stations in range, how far, what direction(s) you need to point, and make a "type" recommendation. If you're lucky, all your major stations will be in one direction ...if not, it gets more complicated. For starters you want all your major networks, ABC, CBS, PBS, NBC, and FOX, as they carry the best "series" programming , in my opinion.

Once you see where the stations you want to get are located, go to the other web site I gave you and read up on the antennas...especially the VHF/UHF large Channel Masters.

At your distance, assuming your terrain is not mountainous, you should do well with the CM...make sure to get it above your roof line and try to keep the feedline (RG-6) as short as possible.


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## puffnstuff (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks once again I think I will go with a cm .


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

harsh said:


> If I may ask, how do you use a TV antenna that you managed to break it?


You may ask...

I handled it hardly at all. The plasic piece that holds the coax connector in place is the "weak spot" on the antenna. I was unscrewing the coax to move the antenna and the plastic piece came loose exposing the contactors and a piss poor soldiering job IMO. The contactors broke loose immediately. Being an "enginerd", I was able to solider it back together.

The intention of my post was to warn folks to be gentle with the Silver Sensor as it can be damaged easily if moved around too much while fine tuning... You get what you pay for and it certainly does the trick, just be gentle.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

puffnstuff said:


> Whats a good outdoor antenna for about 40-50 miles I really want to try the winegard ss2000 but am confused about how far it will work .


For that distance a directional YAGI-type antenna would probably be the best, especially if all of the signals that you want are broadcast from the same location. A large omni-directional antenna like the CM 4228 also might work at that distance.


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## puffnstuff (Sep 2, 2006)

TomF said:


> For that distance a directional YAGI-type antenna would probably be the best, especially if all of the signals that you want are broadcast from the same location. A large omni-directional antenna like the CM 4228 also might work at that distance.


Thanks I just ordered the 4228 !


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## dervari (Dec 1, 2005)

Anyone have any experience with the Eagle Aspen DTV2BUHF? Looks like a DB-2 clone.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Just got a db4.. works great for uhf!(and quite small) gets all my uhf channels (and they are in all directions) but won't get my 2 stupid vhs ones- have a 6260 coming to get 3(2) and 8(7) hoping I can get them too


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## ericgo (Dec 16, 2006)

CM4228 is not omnidirectional, it is highly directional bow-tie array.
Anyway, excellent choice.


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## 325xia (Oct 28, 2006)

TomF said:


> In Rancho Santa Fe, depending on geography, you could probably also get most of the LA channels if you point your antenna towards Mt. Wilson, roughly at 330 degrees for you.
> 
> I've been doing HD OTA since Jul 2001 with a CM 4221 antenna and a CM 9521 rotator mounted in the attic, initially to get LA HD stations because only KFMB in San Diego was broadcasting in HD. The distance to Mt. Wilson where all of the LA broadcast antennas are mounted at 6,000 ft., is 103 miles from my house.


Thanks Tom,

I know the direction of Mt. Wilson and hope to get the LA stations, which I prefer. I thought KGTV was HD too. I know KNSD is not. All LA is. If it weren't for ESPN and HBO, I would have no need to subscribe to DirecTV. There is so much free being broadcast near my house.


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## RobTorrey (Aug 21, 2006)

I think I read in a post that once the major broadcast stations have fully complied and gone completely digital thay will abandon their UHF frequencies and revert to VHF. Then the market for "HD" VHF antennas will blossom.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

I'm in Central NJ and am in the NY DMA (but might be able to get some Philly stations as well). Anyway, I would prefer to use indoor antenna if possible, and essentially, the only channels I am looking for are WPIX, WWOR, and PBS HD, as the others come in through D*. So my questions are:

1) Are the HD versions of these channels VHF or UHF?
2) Where could I find a listing of all HD channels in my area, including the subchannels available?
3) What indoor antenna would suit my needs, if any?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

RobTorrey said:


> I think I read in a post that once the major broadcast stations have fully complied and gone completely digital thay will abandon their UHF frequencies and revert to VHF. Then the market for "HD" VHF antennas will blossom.


They have the option of retaining their old assignments or keeping the new ones. It is very had to tell at this point where they are going to end up. If putting up an antenna now (a good one), I would make sure I could cover VHF as well as UHF. For a temporary situation (if my locals were on UHF now), I would put up an inexpensive UHF antenna.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

hasan said:


> They have the option of retaining their old assignments or keeping the new ones. It is very had to tell at this point where they are going to end up. If putting up an antenna now (a good one), I would make sure I could cover VHF as well as UHF. For a temporary situation (if my locals were on UHF now), I would put up an inexpensive UHF antenna.


99.9% of the stations have basically decided what channel they will be on after 2009. Look at this web site http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.pdf

Virtually the only ones still in doubt are stations who selected VHF-lo, channels 2-6. . The FCC has given them the opportunity to change those elections (like"please don't use VHF-lo"??).


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> 99.9% of the stations have basically decided what channel they will be on after 2009. Look at this web site http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.pdf
> 
> Virtually the only ones still in doubt are stations who selected VHF-lo, channels 2-6. . The FCC has given them the opportunity to change those elections (like"please don't use VHF-lo"??).


yeah...and one of our locals in that group, channel 5...I sure hope the don't revert, because there is a very severe power restriction on VHF-LO by the FCC...their analog signal sucks and I'm only 27 miles from their 2200 ft towers!!! Right now they are using Ch 59, and have a reasonable signal.

Thanks for the site...I'll see if any of the other locals are going to revert or stay.

Damn! It looks like nearly all of them are going back to VHF if I read the chart correctly, incuding WOI on Ch 5.

What I'm interested in are :

Des Moines, IA

KCCI, Tentative: 8
KDIN, Tentative: 11
KDSM, Tentative: 16
WHO, Tentatie: 13

Ames, IA

WOI, Tentative: 5
KPWB, Tentative: 23
KDMI, Tentative: 31

If I'm interpreting these correctly, 5, 8,11,13 will all be going off UHF (their current assignments) and back to VHF. Farkle!!!

What is the date for the change over?


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

ericgo said:


> CM4228 is not omnidirectional, it is highly directional bow-tie array.


I would not classify the CM 4221 or 4228 as highly directional. When I bought my 4221 in 2001, before CM was acquired by Andrews, they had much more data on their website about their antennas, and if remember correctly, it was classified as a multi-directional antenna. A bow tie array antenna by design is multi-directional, because it has such a large reception area, as opposed to an "arrow"-type Yagi antenna which IS highly directional, but has a very small, but concentrated reception area.

I'm able to point my 4221 at a point in between two broadcasting locations and still get both of them. When I was using a Silver Sensor antenna, a Yagi-type antenna, I was never able to do that. I wouldn't have bought the 4221 at the time if it wasn't multi-directional, since in my area, the local stations are broadcast from three different locations. If you can find some data that confirms your belief, I'd love to see it.


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## rutgersfan (Dec 18, 2006)

all i did was take a piece of co-ax cable, stripped the last 2 feet of it down to the center wire, plug the other end into the box. Stick it on the wall, and I get all but one HD channel. If i point it right, I will get the last one. I live 30 miles from Cleveland btw. I learned this trick from some tech guy.



TomF said:


> I have a CM 4221 that was mounted in my attic. I mounted it on my chimney and lost reception of two channels. Your mileage may vary, but roof mounting vs. attic mounting is not necessarily better. BTW, I've been doing HD OTA since July 2001.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

325xia said:


> Thanks Tom,
> 
> I know the direction of Mt. Wilson and hope to get the LA stations, which I prefer. I thought KGTV was HD too. I know KNSD is not. All LA is. If it weren't for ESPN and HBO, I would have no need to subscribe to DirecTV. There is so much free being broadcast near my house.


All locals in San Diego are broadcasting a digital signal and have been for over a year. KNSD, KPBS and KSWB all broadcast in HD from Mt. San Miguel in Spring Valley, but I've never been able to get KNSD. KGTV and KFMB both broadcast from Mt. Soledad in HD and Fox broadcasts in HD from Mt. San Antonio in Mexico. I'm not sure where KUSI broadcasts from, they are broadcasting a digital signal, but not in HD.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> I'm in Central NJ and am in the NY DMA (but might be able to get some Philly stations as well). Anyway, I would prefer to use indoor antenna if possible, and essentially, the only channels I am looking for are WPIX, WWOR, and PBS HD, as the others come in through D*. So my questions are:
> 
> 1) Are the HD versions of these channels VHF or UHF?
> 2) Where could I find a listing of all HD channels in my area, including the subchannels available?
> 3) What indoor antenna would suit my needs, if any?


For #1 & #2, check out the FCC TV Query Database. This is the definitive source for all possible information on broadcast channels in any area that you want. To point your antenna correctly, you can use the Census Bureau's Tiger Web Server to get the GPS coordinates of a broadcast location and then check out the distance and angle from your location using indio.com's Distance Calculator. That info and a compass should do the trick.

For #3 check out antennaweb.org.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

TomF said:


> I would not classify the CM 4221 or 4228 as highly directional. When I bought my 4221 in 2001, before CM was acquired by Andrews, they had much more data on their website about their antennas, and if remember correctly, it was classified as a multi-directional antenna. A bow tie array antenna by design is multi-directional, because it has such a large reception area, as opposed to an "arrow"-type Yagi antenna which IS highly directional, but has a very small, but concentrated reception area.
> 
> I'm able to point my 4221 at a point in between two broadcasting locations and still get both of them. When I was using a Silver Sensor antenna, a Yagi-type antenna, I was never able to do that. I wouldn't have bought the 4221 at the time if it wasn't multi-directional, since in my area, the local stations are broadcast from three different locations. If you can find some data that confirms your belief, I'd love to see it.


The CM4221 has a beamwidth of about 45 degrees, the CM4228 about 15 degrees. Yagis of the same performance have much narrower beamwidths, but even the CM4221 is not particularly multidirectional. Note that these bowtie antennas alo have some pickup from the rear of the antenna.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

hasan said:


> yeah...and one of our locals in that group, channel 5...I sure hope the don't revert, because there is a very severe power restriction on VHF-LO by the FCC...their analog signal sucks and I'm only 27 miles from their 2200 ft towers!!! Right now they are using Ch 59, and have a reasonable signal.
> 
> Thanks for the site...I'll see if any of the other locals are going to revert or stay.
> 
> ...


Your interpretation is correct. It's possible 5 may decide to go UHF, we shall see. But the others will be VHF-hi. The good news is that you need a much smaller antenna for VHF-hi than VHF-lo. Also some UHF antennas (CM4228, 91XG) have decent VHF-hi performance so if your VHF stations are close you can use one of these antennas.


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## mcbeevee (Sep 18, 2006)

ericgo said:


> I respectfully disagree with macbeevee and say: for most of us it doesn't matter. It depends a lot on the materials your house is built of and the environment you live in, in general. If your home is electromagnetically transparent, then yes, you should point an indoor antenna in the right direction. But typically, a signal picked up by an indoor antenna is bounced off the walls and other objects, i.e. there is no line of sight between the antenna and the towers.


I was using my personal experience of tuning with the Silver Sensors. If I turn it away from the direction of the towers, the signal will keep getting lower and will eventually be 0%. The same thing has happened when I've setup the Silver Sensor in 2 other houses. :flag:


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## NYG23 (Oct 3, 2006)

rutgersfan said:


> all i did was take a piece of co-ax cable, stripped the last 2 feet of it down to the center wire, plug the other end into the box. Stick it on the wall, and I get all but one HD channel. If i point it right, I will get the last one. I live 30 miles from Cleveland btw. I learned this trick from some tech guy.


I tried this with some extra cable I had laying around and pointed that sum ***** out the window. It pulled in all the relevant channels at or near 100% signal strength. It even works better for me than the rabbit ears/loop and amplified antennas that I bought (rented) from radio shack.

Keep chopping wood baby!


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

rutgersfan said:


> all i did was take a piece of co-ax cable, stripped the last 2 feet of it down to the center wire, plug the other end into the box. Stick it on the wall, and I get all but one HD channel. If i point it right, I will get the last one. I live 30 miles from Cleveland btw. I learned this trick from some tech guy.


As crazy as some make think it sounds, out of curiousity i tried the same and pulled in 3 of my locals (cbs, nbc, abc) with a signal strength of 60-75% and i am 38-40 miles from the towers.


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## rtphokie (Sep 17, 2006)

ericgo said:


> HDTV dedicated antenna is nonsense, there is no such thing. Marketing spin...
> 
> Silver sensor is a good one, CM4228 suggested above is better for sure, but it is a large outdoor antenna!
> 
> ...


I've got a CM4228 in my attic and it pulls in yellow, green and red VERY well. Violet comes in pretty well when the antenna is aimed correctly. (which I only had to do once).

Here is what AntennaWeb showed for my home near Raleigh, NC










ABC, NBC, CBS are all on vector B and are all yellow (there's an antenna farm 20 miles away). My PBS affiliate is on vector E and is also in the yellow zone (just shy of 20 miles away and just shy of 180 degrees off of). My antenna is in the attic and is aimed towards vector B. Cable run is about 200 ft to an amplified splitter plus another 100ft run (1 feed to my HR20, the other to the TV)

My old antenna (a CM4248) just didn't have the gain to consistently pull in that PBS affiliate along vector E, replacing it with a CM4228 made all the difference in the world . I don't really care about the Christian and Univision stations on vectors A & C so a highly directional antenna like the 4228 is the right choice for me.

If you aren't as fortunate and have channels in multiple directions, your choices are to add a antenna rotator, or and add a second antenna and a "join-tenna" to combine the signals into a single coax.

Some more resources:

FCC search page, includes links to maps that show where a station's tower is and it's broadcast pattern
Channel Master Product Guide
 nice breakdown of antenna options on Engadget


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## dervari (Dec 1, 2005)

I guess Atlanta residents are relatively lucky. There are two major antenna farms for the major networks and I can receive all of them within a 15 degree arc. Of course, that doesn't include "i", the religious channels, etc.


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## Garand762 (Sep 27, 2006)

I checked on Antennaweb and it shows that I am 6.5 miles from all but one station and 10.7 from that one. My house sits on high ground not the highest but pretty close and there are no tall buildings in the way. According to Antennaweb the stations are red or blue.

The question I have is being this close to the stations can I get by with and indoor amplified antenna?


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## rtphokie (Sep 17, 2006)

Garand762 said:


> I checked on Antennaweb and it shows that I am 6.5 miles from all but one station and 10.7 from that one. My house sits on high ground not the highest but pretty close and there are no tall buildings in the way. According to Antennaweb the stations are red or blue.
> 
> The question I have is being this close to the stations can I get by with and indoor amplified antenna?


Try it, if it doesn't work, return it.


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## 325xia (Oct 28, 2006)

TomF said:


> All locals in San Diego are broadcasting a digital signal and have been for over a year. KNSD, KPBS and KSWB all broadcast in HD from Mt. San Miguel in Spring Valley, but I've never been able to get KNSD. KGTV and KFMB both broadcast from Mt. Soledad in HD and Fox broadcasts in HD from Mt. San Antonio in Mexico. I'm not sure where KUSI broadcasts from, they are broadcasting a digital signal, but not in HD.


It's hilly out here where I live. I'm fortunate to live on top and get decent reception of all the stations. Thanks for the help. How far typically does the Digital signal travel? Because, I'm not able to pull-in a lot of the analog VHF/UHF signals.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Garand762 said:


> I checked on Antennaweb and it shows that I am 6.5 miles from all but one station and 10.7 from that one. My house sits on high ground not the highest but pretty close and there are no tall buildings in the way. According to Antennaweb the stations are red or blue.
> 
> The question I have is being this close to the stations can I get by with and indoor amplified antenna?


Are they all in the same direction? Are they all on UHF only, or are some of them on VHF? If all UHF, try a Silver Sensor for about 25 bucks, it should work very well. Don't get an "amplified" antenna (indoor)...the amplifier sees all sorts of locally generated noise and will amplify it just as much as the desired signal. You gain nothing and may overload the input to the HR20.

I have two friends located 15 to 20 miles from our antenna farm...they are both using indoor antennas. One uses a Silver Sensor, the other uses a Double Bow Tie (with reflector screen). They both get all the stations available. The Silver Sensor works better than the Double Bow Tie. (these are UHF only)


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## Garand762 (Sep 27, 2006)

hasan said:


> Are they all in the same direction? Are they all on UHF only, or are some of them on VHF?


They are all UHF and 5 of the 6 are at 54 degrees and the other is at 76 degrees.

I picked up an RCA indoor antenna at Best Buy and it worked like a champ OTA is up and running


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