# OTA digitals EPG question for SFBay Area L215 users



## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

I subscribe to Dish locals. With L215 I am now thinking of unsubscribing. But I do not want to do that if I will lose OTA digital EPG data. Can those of you in the SFBay Area with OTA digitals who do *not* subscribe to Dish locals please respond to this post and advise what the status of your OTA EPG data is for each OTA digital station you receive.

Could someone also answer another related question: is the 921 now getting it's OTA digital EPG data *only* from OTA digital broadcast PSIP info, or is it also still using the Dish local information to fill this in?

Thanks in advance,
-Keith


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## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

I don't think the 921 uses PSIP guide infomation at all. If a DMA has dish locals, the 921 maps the local guide data to the OTA stations. This causes some errors since some OTA stations use sub-channels that have different programming. The 921 sometimes maps the guide data to the .2 sub-channel even it the .1 sub-channel is the main HD broadcast.

I subscribe to San Francisco locals, but am only able to receive Sacramento OTA stations due to topography. Before L215 I had no guide data for the Sacramento OTA stations, but now I have 9 day EPG for them, even though I do not (and legally cannot) subscribe to Sacramento locals.


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

KQED-HD OTA in SF has 5 subchannels. With L215 all 5 of these subchannels are showing the correct EPG data. Where is this data coming from?

Cheers,
-Keith


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## langlin (Apr 8, 2005)

keitheva said:


> KQED-HD OTA in SF has 5 subchannels. With L215 all 5 of these subchannels are showing the correct EPG data. Where is this data coming from?
> 
> Cheers,
> -Keith


Keith, do I understand you correctly that you have Guide data remapped to the five different subchannels of KQED OTA and they are different schedules and match the program being transmitted?


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

langlin said:


> Keith, do I understand you correctly that you have Guide data remapped to the five different subchannels of KQED OTA and they are different schedules and match the program being transmitted?


Exactly!


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## phongluu (Mar 8, 2005)

Hey Keith,
Have you read this thread? In DonLandis comments, he explains it.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=43527

***quote,

"Well, I'll say this now openly but I had serious plans to file a formal complaint with the FCC on Dish's plan to sell the OTA guide data to 921 owners. IMO, this actually is a violation of the recent PSIP regulation that requires PSIP data to be present after 2/1/05 on any OTA ATSC signal. I won't go into details here but my position was that E* has a valid OTA ATSC receiver that is designed to intercept the PSIP required data, and filter it through a process that sells the information to it's 921 OTA users. In January, I announced my plans to E* in person and suggested they rethink their position on it. Some of you may recall I alluded to the concept that they program the 921 to receive PSIP from the stations with the option to purchase OTA guide data that came from DISH service. But without purchase, they should design the software to at minimum receive what the stations are sending in their PSIP, a regulated minimum would be far better than nothing. At any rate, it's all water under the bridge now if, indeed, this "feature" was intended to be so and we're just experiencing a few bugs with some. Looking forward to hearing from Mark, officially on this. Mark? "

unquote******

P.L.


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

That certainly is the assumption. i.e. that the 921 is using PSIP data (where it can). There's no reasonable explanation otherwise as to how it can display the KQED-HD subchannel info (since none of these are carried by Dish).

Like Don, what I'm asking for here is some official confirmation from someone with access to Dish techies that this is in fact the case. Mark?

Since I also subscribe to Dish locals, I don't know what OTA EPG data is coming from PSIP, and what is coming from Dish. Hence my other question for those in SFBay not subscribed to Dish locals about what they are seeing for OTA EPG data. I don't want to unsubscribe from Dish locals if for example KQED-HD is the only station for which the 921 can read the PSIP data.

So what's the algorithm?

display_ota_digital_epg_data:
if psip display psip_data;
else if subscribed_to_locals display dish_data;
else display "no information available"; /* no psip, not subscribed to locals */

Or what?

Cheers,
-Keith


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## langlin (Apr 8, 2005)

this is a reply I got from Mark when I asked if the 921 used PSIP.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=383048&postcount=134


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## phongluu (Mar 8, 2005)

I can confirm with you 100% that the 921 gets all the EPG from local station. 
Again the 921 is a OTA ATSC receiver. It's perhaps getting the PSIP data and filer it with 215, and ..that's why we have them 

Here is the fact, I do not sub to dish local, I do not sub to dish (you would say eh!) But yes, I only use 921 for OTA HD and after 215: it gets all the EPG.

Now, I'm just hoping it's the path that dish taking not a fu up mistake, so they won't take it back in the next software update.

P.L


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## langlin (Apr 8, 2005)

Doesn't make sense because the stations don't go out 9 days with guide data and the dish mirrored guide does.


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## bbomar (Oct 18, 2004)

phongluu said:


> Here is the fact, I do not sub to dish local, I do not sub to dish (you would say eh!) But yes, I only use 921 for OTA HD and after 215: it gets all the EPG.
> P.L


Even though you don't sub to Dish, you have a dish connected - right?
In other words, you can get the free information channel? If so, you
have access to the Dish guide information stream.


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## phongluu (Mar 8, 2005)

bbomar said:


> Even though you don't sub to Dish, you have a dish connected - right?
> In other words, you can get the free information channel? If so, you
> have access to the Dish guide information stream.


That's correct.

But how dish get all KQED-HD OTA in SF that has 5 subchannels guide? I do not think so.
I still beleive the 921 does filter itself. Anyway, it's only my assumption at this time.
Where is the 215 Releast Notes.

I have been waiting and waiting for it.
Besind Mark and this site, do you know where to get that infor?

Thanks,
P.L


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

langlin said:


> this is a reply I got from Mark when I asked if the 921 used PSIP.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=383048&postcount=134


Mmmm...I'm with Phongluu

Dish does not carry *any* of the 5 KQED-HD OTA subchannels. And not one of them is the same schedule as the analog KQED channel which Dish does carry. Yet the 921 is displaying all 6 channels EPG data correctly (5 KQED-HD OTA plus 1 KQED analog off Dish).

Why/how would Dish be streaming/mapping EPG data for channels they don't even carry?

I'd love to know (officially) 

Also, there are other OTA stations in SFBay which multicast, and the 921 is not displaying the subchannel EPG data for any of them.


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## William_K_F (Apr 20, 2002)

I dropped my SF locals when I heard L215 would give me guide data. When I got home, it was working fine. I get around 30 channels OTA, about half of them show guide data, and as stated above, KQED now shows data for all the sub channels, whereas before, only the first one had data.


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## joebird (Sep 15, 2003)

Yes, the KQED sub-channels are populated in the guide correctly on my 921 (though I still subscribe to locals) and my 942 -- though the 942 loses the data sometimes -- that's another topic.


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## bbomar (Oct 18, 2004)

phongluu said:


> That's correct.
> But how dish get all KQED-HD OTA in SF that has 5 subchannels guide? I do not think so.
> P.L


How that station has 5 subchannels of guide data is a mystery to me.
Maybe some PSIP data will be used, but I believe all of my guide data
is mapped over from the LILs.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

My 811 shows a lot of the OTA EPG info for Stations that Dish does not carry as my locals. It has for a long time (At least 6 Months), From what I learned it does not get this information from the PSIP stream. My understanding is that no Dish receivers use the PSIP stream for GUIDE data. 

The Guide data comes the Dish EPG stream which I believe is not created by Dish. If I recall the TV guide partnership somehow fits into this puzzle, but I am not sure how. As I understand it, this information is coming from the Dish Guide stream and not PSIP. 

Would be nice to get a full description on how this all works, I am sure it would explain some of the things we have been seeing. At this point, the only thing I know unless things have change drastically is that it is not from the PSIP stream. 

As an example, see how far the OTA data goes out. Does it cover the same time span? PSIP is only required to be 2 days I believe. Some are doing longer but I would find it very coincidental that it covers the same period as standard Dish Channels.


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## SteveB (Aug 18, 2004)

I am getting guide info for all of the main L.A. channels, including some secondary channels, such KABC and KCET (PBS). I do not subscribe to the local channels. There is no guide data for the analog stations.


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## madbrain (Dec 10, 2004)

I don't subscribe to the SF bay area locals. I now get the guide with the 921 finally. It is definitely not PSIP. I can say that with certainty because I compared the 921 guide with the one from my Samsung SIR-T165 OTA-only receiver, which is from PSIP. That receiver has guide info for 2-2, 4-2, 7-2, 20-2, which the 921 doesn't show. Conversely, the 921 has guide info for a few channels with no PSIP data, eg. 26-1 .

Regarding KQED subchannels, the 921 has guide info, but the descriptions are not the same as in the PSIP guide of the Samsung. So, at this time, the conclusion is that the 921 doesn't use PSIP.

The PSIP guide doesn't show program year, rating, or whether the programs are subtitled or not - whereas the Dish guide does. IMO, the Dish guide is better, but for channels where Dish does not have any data, the 921 should use PSIP. Or there should be an option to toggle it somewhere, when PSIP support is finally added to the box.


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

Good info Madbrain, thanks. That's pretty definitive.

I subscribe to Dish locals, you don't. It would be interesting to compare whether there's any difference wrt the OTA EPG info we get. Here's the list of OTA digital stations which I get EPG data for:

002-01 KTVU
004-01 KRON
005-01 KPIX
007-01 KGO
009-01 to 05 KQED
011-01 KNTV
020-01 KBWB
026-01 KTSF
032-01 KMTP
043-01/02 KCSM
044-01 KBHK
047-01 KTLN

How does yours compare?

Thanks,
-Keith


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Actually here is a theory. Just a theory. Wonder if it is possible that EPG guide OTA information source on 213 is different than on 215. If I recall, the 811 and the 921 were using different sources for guide information and that was one of the reasons why the 811 did not require sub to your locals and the 921 did. Now, The people are reporting the 921 not requiring sub to locals and some people reporting having local OTA and then losing them. If the 921 changed from one guide stream to another this would explain why these two things could have happend. 

Just a wilde theory and I could be totally off. Hopefully we can get some reason why this happend with 215.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

If you want to see what is available to Dish Network from it's subscrtiption service for guide data on all OTA broadcast stations, it is Tribune Media Services. Go to their website at Zap2it .com and you can see what the station is giving Tribune that Dish will use in their guide data. It should be that simple.

While what Mark posted is correct for prior L215 software it may be different for L215 and after. They may have begun to use PSIP guide data BUT- And this is a big BUT, you should all be aware that the FCC regulated PSIP guide data is only a 12 hour minimum look ahead so if you know for a fact that your local station is only sending 12 hour look ahead for the FCC minimum required, then for sure the 921 uses Dish services and nOT PSIP is you are seeing beyond the 12 hour period of data. PSIP is not limited to 12 hours but that is what is required. Stations are permitted to send out their full published to TMS if that want. This would make determining whether the 921 guide is PSIP or E* difficult. Locally, the last I spoke with our CBS affil engineer, he said they planned to use the download of TMS rather than pull it from their programming department since it was just easier for him to do that. Seems strange but that's engineering for ya! But what it means is that He is voluntarily sending exactly what Dish Network has so there would be no difference.

Since Mark is probably gone for the week and Allen apparently doesn't know either I will send an e-mail to one of my contacts but I don't expect an answer any too soon due to the holiday unless he is working it.


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## madbrain (Dec 10, 2004)

Keitheva,



keitheva said:


> Good info Madbrain, thanks. That's pretty definitive.
> 
> I subscribe to Dish locals, you don't. It would be interesting to compare whether there's any difference wrt the OTA EPG info we get. Here's the list of OTA digital stations which I get EPG data for:
> 
> ...


My list of channels with EPG data on the 921 is fairly similar to yours. I get all the ones you have plus :
36-1 KICU
48-1 KSTS
48-2 KNTV
54-1 KTEH
66-1 KFSF
68-1 KTLN . For some reason it shows at 68-1 on my unit, not 47-1 as on yours! Must be a bug.

On my Samsung unit, the complete list of channels with EPG from PSIP are :
2-1/2 KTVU
4-1/2 KRON
5-1 KPIX
7-1/2 KGO
9-1/5 KQED
11-1 KNTV
20-1/2 KBWB
26-1/2 KTSF
43-1 KCSM
44-1 KBHK

The Samsung unit receives all the same OTA channels that the 921 does, but the others have no PSIP data.

As you can see, the list of channels with PSIP data on the Samsung is much shorter than the list of channels with EPG from Dish on the 921.


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

Thanks madbrain.

The extra info you get is for stations I can't receive up here in Santa Rosa.

Given you get all the info I do, I shall unsubscribe from locals as soon as KNTV moves their transmitter to San Bruno and I can receive it OTA reliably. (assuming Dish doesn't reverse policy on this matter in some future s/w release!).

KTLN is weird. I see their OTS EPG info on 47-1 *and* 68-1, but I can only actually see a picture on 47-2!

Cheers,
-Keith


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

921 guide data is still coming from Tribune, and we're still waiting on the release notes from Dish. These ones apparently are requiring a lot of communication between Denver and Eldon, and with the time difference, it's taking quite a bit longer than normal.


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