# The official Mac vs PC thread



## Chris Blount

This argument seems to be cropping up in other areas of the forum so I thought I would start one here to keep it all contained. 

Let the festivities begin! Oh, and try to be nice to eachother. 

It's no secret that my main OS of choice is OSX although I do use Win 7 as well. Personally I like them both and whatever I can't do in OSX I simply dual boot into Win 7. They are both solid operating systems IMHO.


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## lparsons21

I'm almost all Mac these days. Everything I do is either on the iMac or iPad.

One exception is that I use Playlater/Playon DLNA server on an el-cheapo Acer laptop running Win7. I never found a DLNA server for Mac that I liked. I could live with Win7 if I was forced to, but I would hate it!! 

Also got Win8 public beta on that laptop. Pretty much sucks as a desktop/laptop OS imo.


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## harsh

I'm not a big fan of either OS. Too many ways of approaching the same problem and far too much emphasis on obscuring details and preventing users from doing things directly (see more at XML).

I should be able to use the acreage on a display as I want and not have it tied up with toolbars, docks and other objects that hurt readability more than they facilitate anything else.

As it is with modern DVRs, you shouldn't have to step through three or more Windows to find a way of changing some parameter.

The whole idea of completely rearranging the interface for the sake of supporting consultants and keeping training organizations in business has got to stop. Microsoft, for their part, is trying to saw their foot off with a spork as they try to push Metro. I'm mad enough about "The Ribbon" that I want to choke somebody out.

While Apple and Microsoft are trying to make something that looks new out of something relatively old, the Linux people are coming up with some pretty slick distributions that do a lot of things right while not completely sapping the strength out of modest computers.

If I have to explain drive letters or why so many cool gizmos don't work with a Mac one more time, I'm going to hurt somebody.


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## Nick

harsh said:


> ...If I have to explain drive letters or why so many cool gizmos don't work with a Mac one more time, I'm going to hurt somebody.


That's harsh! :lol:


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## dpeters11

So, what is your favorite OS Harsh? DOS?


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## P Smith

Chris, are you stir two pots in one thread ? HW and SW [OS] ?

I see two major points - prices and obscurity (both parts - HW and SW).

To me Linux is a winner, while I'm bivalent to WinPC and Mac computers.


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## lparsons21

Price is always brought up when discussing Mac vs PC, but most often it really is a bogus argument. I have priced upscale PC computers many times, and the price differential is miniscule if you not only want a well performing box, but one that also has a great box with great innards.

If all you buy is the lower end of the design scale, yep, Macs are much more expensive. But compare an Ultrabook design to a MacBook or Air and you'll find the price not far apart. Same goes for well designed AIO desktops.

About that ribbon. I'm not a big fan of it either, but Sibelius (music engraving software) switched to it with their latest versions. It kind of grows on you with use.

Metro just sucks on anything but a touchpad!


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## Stewart Vernon

harsh said:


> I'm not a big fan of either OS. Too many ways of approaching the same problem and far too much emphasis on obscuring details and preventing users from doing things directly (see more at XML).
> 
> I should be able to use the acreage on a display as I want and not have it tied up with toolbars, docks and other objects that hurt readability more than they facilitate anything else.
> 
> As it is with modern DVRs, you shouldn't have to step through three or more Windows to find a way of changing some parameter.


To be fair... when I talk about "computers" I'm talking about something different than a plug-and-play appliance.

The average person should be able to work a toaster or a DVR... but a computer? A computer is meant to be used for many different things and assumes some more advanced level of competence. I would argue that not everyone needs a computer.

You wouldn't expect an advanced piece of any kind of technical equipment to necessarily be used by anyone other than the intended audience. The problem with computers is that we have a society that tries to say "anyone can use a computer" but the truth is, not everyone can... oh, and that's ok too. We need people to do all sorts of things that don't require computer skills.



lparsons21 said:


> Price is always brought up when discussing Mac vs PC, but most often it really is a bogus argument. I have priced upscale PC computers many times, and the price differential is miniscule if you not only want a well performing box, but one that also has a great box with great innards.
> 
> If all you buy is the lower end of the design scale, yep, Macs are much more expensive.


Agreed. All too often Macs are compared with the low-end inexpensive PCs... and the problem there is that Apple doesn't make any low-end models to compete in that marketspace.

Heck, IBM divested itself of PCs years ago because it wasn't making a profit at the low-end... and sold their PC division to Lenovo in China... IBM decided to focus on the service side and the server side... and IBM charges way more for a server that might only differ slightly in construction than an equivalent PC!

So... you have to compare (wait for it...) Apples to apples


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## P Smith

*



Same goes for well designed AIO desktops.

Click to expand...

*Care to show sample for both sides? To me it's just words ...


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## lparsons21

Stewart Vernon said:


> The average person should be able to work a toaster or a DVR... but a computer? A computer is meant to be used for many different things and assumes some more advanced level of competence. I would argue that not everyone needs a computer.
> So... you have to compare (wait for it...) Apples to apples


:lol:

My sister says she almost never uses her computer any more since she got her iPad2.

I still use mine for lots of things, including discussion forums and newsgroups. And of course, for the music engraving hobby that seems to be taking up more time than it should.


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## P Smith

> way more for a server that might only *differ slightly* in construction than an equivalent PC!


not just understretch, but plain wrong argument, common !


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## Chris Blount

Stewart Vernon said:


> All too often Macs are compared with the low-end inexpensive PCs... and the problem there is that Apple doesn't make any low-end models to compete in that marketspace.


I agree. I did a parts breakdown of my Macbook Pro once and looked up PC laptops with the same parts and figured out quick that the premium on the Macbook was a little over $100.

In this economy, it's quite amazing how Apple did so well selling premium products.


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## P Smith

> I did a parts breakdown of my Macbook Pro once and looked up PC laptops with the same parts and figured out quick that the premium on the Macbook was a little over $100.


Chris, it they use same parts (CPU, RAM, bridges, etc) and price for Mac is doubled ? Where is the logic ? I'm lost in your argument.


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## lparsons21

P Smith said:


> Care to show sample for both sides? To me it's just words ...


OK, here's a couple links for a quick look at AIOs :

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac/select

http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-one-2320/fs

Difference in price vs performance should be noted. And also consider the all aluminum case of the iMac vs the all plastic of Dell. Also note what's missing from the Dell. Like aluminum keyboard vice plastic (and if you've had Dell you know exactly how cheap their plastic keyboard is), missing bluetooth, and I think missing wireless networking. Dell has a 2" bigger screen and bigger HD.

Even if I could run either OSX or Win7 on both of those, I wouldn't pick the Dell at all because they are so cheaply made. But that's just me.


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## lparsons21

P Smith said:


> Chris, it they use same parts (CPU, RAM, bridges, etc) and price for Mac is doubled ? Where is the logic ? I'm lost in your argument.


He didn't say that. He said he used the parts in the MacBook and compared to a laptop with the same parts from somewhere else.


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## P Smith

lparsons21 said:


> He didn't say that. He said he used the parts in the MacBook and compared to a laptop with the same parts from somewhere else.


I need to see tear-down list with prices ... Your addition don't play well.


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## billsharpe

Back in the late 80's when I was writing reviews of inventory programs for stamp collectors one reader complained that I never mentioned the Mac.

My first response to him was that there were no stamp inventory programs for the Mac, while there were many for PC's.

I also pointed out that Macintosh computers back then were twice as expensive as PC's. He disagreed with me, but it turned out he was a student getting his Mac at 50% off.

Mac's are no longer twice as expensive as PC's but they do command a premium price.

I still don't own a Mac but you couldn't pry my iPod Touch out of my hands.


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## lparsons21

Macs do command a premium price because they are a premium product. Other mfgs premium products also come at a much higher price.

Yes you can buy a PC/Windows laptop for much less and you get much less for the money. Like a laptop so flimsy it has to be used on a desk...


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## P Smith

lparsons21 said:


> OK, here's a couple links for a quick look at AIOs :
> 
> http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac/select
> 
> http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-one-2320/fs
> 
> Difference in price vs performance should be noted. And also consider the all aluminum case of the iMac vs the all plastic of Dell. Also note what's missing from the Dell. Like aluminum keyboard vice plastic (and if you've had Dell you know exactly how cheap their plastic keyboard is), missing bluetooth, and I think missing wireless networking. Dell has a 2" bigger screen and bigger HD.
> 
> Even if I could run either OSX or Win7 on both of those, I wouldn't pick the Dell at all because they are so cheaply made. But that's just me.


Kidding?

Pick same HW wise at least, Edison !


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## lparsons21

P Smith said:


> Kidding?
> 
> Pick same HW wise at least, Edison !


With Dell and AIOs that is as close as it gets.

But it is similar with HP, but I'm not going to do the research for you. I doubt you'd buy a Mac anyway.


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## P Smith

lparsons21 said:


> With Dell and AIOs that is as close as it gets.
> 
> But it is similar with HP, but I'm not going to do the research for you. I doubt you'd buy a Mac anyway.


I see you gonna switch to personal humiliation - good 'argument' dude !

I have them more then in your house, don't worry. Stick with topic.

As to "close" - I would say you are cheating (why) while compare 4 GB vs 6 GB, 500 GB vs 1 TB, Nvidia and AMD video cards. Bad argumentation, mister.


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## lparsons21

P Smith said:


> I see you gonna switch to personal humiliation - good 'argument' dude !
> 
> I have them more then in your house, don't worry. Stick with topic.
> 
> As to "close" - I would say you are cheating (why) while compare 4 GB vs 6 GB, 500 GB vs 1 TB, Nvidia and AMD video cards. Bad argumentation, mister.


It is part of the problem when trying to do the comparisons. Each one approaches the design differently. Almost impossible to do a part to part comparison since most machines aren't that much identical, especially when comparing the Mac to the Windows PC boxes. Some parts are the same, some aren't.

But premium boxes from all of the major mfgs will come up to about the same price on a nearly like to like basis. Apple doesn't bother with less than premium designs, so you'll never find a bargain box from them. Different approach.


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## Stewart Vernon

P Smith said:


> not just understretch, but plain wrong argument, common !


Sorry... but you're dead wrong on this one. I can't give details because of NDAs, but suffice to say that I worked there writing technical manuals so I sat in technical meetings and saw design specs. There were more than one model that was the basis for design of a server and a PC... and the component differences between the PC model and the server model were nowhere near justifying the difference in the price-to-customer.

Was this true for all models? No. Absolutely not... but there definitely were models that you could get a PC and save a ton of money over the server model and it was capable of running all the same software.

I wrote books that only required minor changes for the PC version vs the server model.


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## pfp

I'm a PC guy. Nothing wrong with the mac but I have zero interest in learning a completely new OS.


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## Charise

I'm not switching to an Apple for anything. I totally abhor their stance on how I will use my purchases and I don't want to use iTunes. The way their deal with publishers drove up prices for all e-books is a case in point. (No way to know how the lawsuits will end, but I've read a lot on this since the deal first reared its head and know who I feel instigated it.)

I'm not a computer expert, though I feel I'm "entitled" to use a computer. I don't have problems with my Windows 7 and Vista computers and am able to do everything I need/want to with them.

About Office, that's another story.


harsh said:


> I'm mad enough about "The Ribbon" that I want to choke somebody out.


 I always say I want to throttle the woman who led the update that started the ribbon, but "choke somebody out" is close enough. I'm still mad about it too though it's 5 years old!! 

Yeah, I can carry a grudge.


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## dpeters11

"Chris Blount" said:


> I agree. I did a parts breakdown of my Macbook Pro once and looked up PC laptops with the same parts and figured out quick that the premium on the Macbook was a little over $100.
> 
> In this economy, it's quite amazing how Apple did so well selling premium products.


Yes, but remember their computers are more of a side business. They sold 5 million, but 37 million iPhones in the first quarter.


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## Chris Blount

Charise said:


> I'm not switching to an Apple for anything.


 LOL, that's how I was. Just never say never.


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## P Smith

Stewart Vernon said:


> Sorry... but you're dead wrong on this one. I can't give details because of NDAs, but suffice to say that I worked there writing technical manuals so I sat in technical meetings and saw design specs. There were more than one model that was the basis for design of a server and a PC... and the component differences between the PC model and the server model were nowhere near justifying the difference in the price-to-customer.
> 
> Was this true for all models? No. Absolutely not... but there definitely were models that you could get a PC and save a ton of money over the server model and it was capable of running all the same software.
> 
> I wrote books that only required minor changes for the PC version vs the server model.


No need to bring NDA here ...
I did a lot of work (not writing papers, but with HW & SW) on Compaq[HP], IBM, Dell (and Sun) servers and know them pretty good down to component level. Well It would be long post if we will go into details ... Just a few differences what will cost you double at least:
- hot-swap RAM DIMMs
- hot swap PCI[-X] cards (NIC at least)
- registered RAM with ECC 
- dual-triple power supplies/fans
- all capacitors are rated 105+ C
- the servers pass manuf. burning test for 24/7 for a week (some for a month)
- RAID cards with battery backup and own cash RAM
- <need more ?!>

It would be enough to say server vs desktop will always have high price.


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## Charise

Chris Blount said:


> LOL, that's how I was. Just never say never.


Too old to switch now anyway. You're too young, Chris, to know how that feels!


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## Go Beavs

I primarily use Macs at home because, for the most part, they "just work". Networking and file sharing is simple, bonjour is a real nice feature. I also worry much less about viruses too. Yes, I know Macs can get them but the reality is there's just not that many out there compared with PC viruses.

I also use Windows at work and I have to admit that Windows 7 is a pretty slick OS. I do like it much better than XP.

I used to be adamant that "Macs are better" then I switched and held that "PCs are better". Then I switched again and have come to the conclusion that I should keep an open mind. Competition really is a great thing!


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## P Smith

In corporate environment Macs are... ughm is not what IT Dept would like to see ... Royal pain in the a$$.


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## dpeters11

Yeah, when my users are having an issue with their home system, I dread when it's a Mac. When they don't know how to use it, and I don't use them, it's not good.


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## Herdfan

Chris Blount said:


> I agree. I did a parts breakdown of my Macbook Pro once and looked up PC laptops with the same parts and figured out quick that the premium on the Macbook was a little over $100.
> 
> In this economy, it's quite amazing how Apple did so well selling premium products.


But does that take into account everything in the iWork suite? Windows users have to buy most of those type of programs separately.

I was PC until February 2011. My wife/daughter's PC died and we went to look at new ones. My daughter, then 10 wanted a Mac because she had played with one at BB. So we went home with a Mini. I played with it some and 2 weeks later I had a new MBP. Then when the iMac's got a refresh, I got one of those.

Just waiting to see when the new iMac refresh happens if it does as rumored have a matte screen option. Will sell my current iMac for 75-80% of what I paid for it and get the new one.

They make some things so simple. I .pdf a lot of Word docs. OSX has that feature built in. No fiddling with other programs. Simple.

I have a dual boot system with VMWare because I needed Quickbooks. This past January I started the year running dual which was a PITA, but I had to know if QB Mac is good enough. It is different, but my 1Q numbers matched and I am QB Mac only going forward.

I still have a couple of programs that are Windows only, but I am actively searching for replacements.



lparsons21 said:


> Macs do command a premium price because they are a premium product. Other mfgs premium products also come at a much higher price.


You would probably be surprised at how many Windows users think a MBP is the best Windows computer. They completely remove OSX and make them Windows only.



Go Beavs said:


> I primarily use Macs at home because, for the most part, they "just work". Networking and file sharing is simple, *bonjour is a real nice feature*.


It rocks. I have a networked color laser. My Windows machines would "lose" it about once a month and I would have go through and set it up again. The Macs found it immediately and and have not lost it since. This is really handy when I am not home and my daughter wants to use the color laser to print a school project.

Plus, when my daughter has friends over and they see that 27" iMac on my desk, she says it makes me the "cool" dad. :lol:


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## Stewart Vernon

pfp said:


> I'm a PC guy. Nothing wrong with the mac but I have zero interest in learning a completely new OS.


Unlike what Microsoft has done over the years?

About every other Windows release has been a major interface and use change hasn't it? Don't get me wrong, I used Windows 2000 for a long happy time... and adjusting to Windows XP after that wasn't difficult but it was different and a lot of things moved around.

There were big changes between the early Windows versions too... and Windows Vista was big changes. I haven't seen Windows 7, however.

What I do know, however, is that Windows and OS X have begun to share a lot of similarities in look and feel... so I think that operations gap is mostly bridged for most users. Until you start digging under the hood, a lot of stuff looks and feels the same to me.



Charise said:


> I'm not switching to an Apple for anything. I totally abhor their stance on how I will use my purchases


Like? You know Microsoft has some restrictions too, right? They integrate some things into the operating system that you can't easily (sometimes at all) remove... like how IE is all into everything even if you like Firefox or Chrome... you still are forced to use IE sometimes. That seems a lot (to me) like the times on my Mac when I have to use Safari instead of Firefox to visit certain Web sites correctly.

Also... if you really really read the EULA that you agree to upon installing Microsoft Windows, you might be surprised how many restrictions are in place by Microsoft, including how you are merely "leasing" the operating system and don't technically own it.



Charise said:


> and I don't want to use iTunes.


You don't have to... well, if you want to purchase things from the iTunes store, then you have to... but except for the Apps that have chosen to be exclusive to the Mac App store, you can get your music and movies elsewhere if you want, and most Apps still as well.



Charise said:


> The way their deal with publishers drove up prices for all e-books is a case in point.


You're reading the Kool-aid a bit here. The publishers wanted those higher prices. They didn't like Amazon bargain-binning their eBooks. Yes, Apple had a hand in things... but don't pretend the book publishers didn't like and want the higher prices and if they could have strongarmed Amazon (oh wait, they kind of did) they would.


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## Stewart Vernon

P Smith said:


> No need to bring NDA here ...
> I did a lot of work (not writing papers, but with HW & SW) on Compaq[HP], IBM, Dell (and Sun) servers and know them pretty good down to component level. Well It would be long post if we will go into details ... Just a few differences what will cost you double at least:
> - hot-swap RAM DIMMs
> - hot swap PCI[-X] cards (NIC at least)
> - registered RAM with ECC
> - dual-triple power supplies/fans
> - all capacitors are rated 105+ C
> - the servers pass manuf. burning test for 24/7 for a week (some for a month)
> - RAID cards with battery backup and own cash RAM
> - <need more ?!>
> 
> It would be enough to say server vs desktop will always have high price.


Sorry, but you didn't read my first post correctly and you are making the same mistake that many Apple vs PC users do...

You are comparing features of high-end servers with low-end PCs... and that wasn't what I said at all.

I said "some" and "might differ only slightly"... I never said "all servers are no better than desktop PCs"... I said some were, and you might be surprised sometimes to find out.

I can't speak to current generations, especially since they sold to Lenovo... but prior to that, several server models were designed and developed to also be used as PC models or specialized PC/server models for a specific task... and those models were basically developed and tested as server models, then had a few components removed for features they wouldn't support on the PC model and then sold at a much lower PC pricepoint.

The point I was making, though, was that the price difference was far greater in that case than the actual hardware difference. In fact, you used to be able to look up on the IBM Web site to find software for your particular PC desktop... and you would find that your PC and some server models shared the same software updates. I don't know if they have files that old online anymore for non-supported computers... but it was fairly common across their lower end server models and their higher end PCs to share a lot of stuff.

So... if you compare high-end Servers to low-end PCs, that is worse than people who compare Apple iMacs to low-end PCs.

iMacs need to be compared to high-end PCs. Similarly, low-end servers need to be compared to high-end PCs. High-end servers don't really have a comparison... nor do the low-end PCs.


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## dpeters11

"pfp" said:


> I'm a PC guy. Nothing wrong with the mac but I have zero interest in learning a completely new OS.


Not moving to Windows 8? That's pretty close to a new OS.


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## lparsons21

dpeters11 said:


> Not moving to Windows 8? That's pretty close to a new OS.


It sure is. I got the public beta and can't figure out why MS wants to go 'metro' on the desktop. I can't see any advantage to it in that scenario and lots of disadvantages.

Apple added Launchpad to OSX, which is similar to the ipad being all icons for programs, but they don't make it the default and I'm not even sure you can make it the default.


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## bobnielsen

Herdfan said:


> It rocks. I have a networked color laser. My Windows machines would "lose" it about once a month and I would have go through and set it up again. The Macs found it immediately and and have not lost it since. This is really handy when I am not home and my daughter wants to use the color laser to print a school project.


Apple's site has a version of Bonjour for Windows. It found my networked printer immediately after I had spent a few hours trying to configure Win7 to see it.


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## bobnielsen

lparsons21 said:


> I'm almost all Mac these days. Everything I do is either on the iMac or iPad.
> 
> One exception is that I use Playlater/Playon DLNA server on an el-cheapo Acer laptop running Win7. I never found a DLNA server for Mac that I liked. I could live with Win7 if I was forced to, but I would hate it!!
> 
> Also got Win8 public beta on that laptop. Pretty much sucks as a desktop/laptop OS imo.


I found iSedora to be quite good as a DLNA server on my Mac. It allows me to separately customize the configuration for different clients.


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## Charise

Stewart,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charise 
I'm not switching to an Apple for anything. I totally abhor their stance on how I will use my purchases,

Like? You know Microsoft has some restrictions too, right? They integrate some things into the operating system that you can't easily (sometimes at all) remove... like how IE is all into everything even if you like Firefox or Chrome... you still are forced to use IE sometimes. That seems a lot (to me) like the times on my Mac when I have to use Safari instead of Firefox to visit certain Web sites correctly.
Yes, I do. And yet I manage to get Windows to work as I want. And I don't mind using IE9. I have been able to get all my old software to work well. I'm probably not as adventurous or demanding in what I do, but I seem to have found tricks over the years that most of my colleagues and students who I'm always told "grew up using computers" never seem to know.

Also... if you really really read the EULA that you agree to upon installing Microsoft Windows, you might be surprised how many restrictions are in place by Microsoft, including how you are merely "leasing" the operating system and don't technically own it.
Yes, and though I rarely completely read most EULAs now, I actually did read them when I first started using computers, so I don't think I would be very surprised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charise 
and I don't want to use iTunes.

You don't have to... well, if you want to purchase things from the iTunes store, then you have to... but except for the Apps that have chosen to be exclusive to the Mac App store, you can get your music and movies elsewhere if you want, and most Apps still as well.
I have asked about this, and according to people I know who own iPods, they aren't able to use anything except iTunes for their music on (at least older) Apple products. Perhaps these are the people who shouldn't be using computers?  I trusted them when they said I couldn't put all my music from my computer to anything i___.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charise 
The way their deal with publishers drove up prices for all e-books is a case in point.

You're reading the Kool-aid a bit here. The publishers wanted those higher prices. They didn't like Amazon bargain-binning their eBooks. Yes, Apple had a hand in things... but don't pretend the book publishers didn't like and want the higher prices and if they could have strongarmed Amazon (oh wait, they kind of did) they would.
No Kool-aid for years in my house.  Of course, the publishers weren't happy. However, they did not change their pricing before Mr. Jobs's idea to make a deal with as many publishers as he could. So, yes, I do blame Apple for _instigating_ this, as I said previously.


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## Stewart Vernon

Charise said:


> Yes, I do. And yet I manage to get Windows to work as I want. And I don't mind using IE9. I have been able to get all my old software to work well. I'm probably not as adventurous or demanding in what I do, but I seem to have found tricks over the years that most of my colleagues and students who I'm always told "grew up using computers" never seem to know.


I'm not a PC/Windows hater... To be fair, the main reason I went back to PC from Mac many years ago was that it was harder to use Terminal in the Mac O/S and you had no choice but to but into a windows environment. I miss the old days of booting to DOS and then choosing to run Windows.

But... around the time Microsoft made DOS Prompt the alternate mode... and then basically reduced it to a shadow of its former self... the differences in the Mac O/S and Windows weren't as great... and with a little poking around I find I can do pretty much the same stuff on my Mac as I could under Windows.



Charise said:


> I have asked about this, and according to people I know who own iPods, they aren't able to use anything except iTunes for their music on (at least older) Apple products. Perhaps these are the people who shouldn't be using computers?  I trusted them when they said I couldn't put all my music from my computer to anything i___.


Yeah, that was a mixed bag of inaccurate and perhaps old advice. WinAMP even makes their MP3 player for the Mac now, though I haven't tried it out yet.

I use VLC Media player rather than QuickTime to play video because VLC supports way more media formats, including the bulk of my old Windows format videos

iTunes grows on you with the Mac... but as a PC user I honestly wouldn't use it there either. Apple doesn't really have as good of support for Windows for Quicktime and iTunes as they do on the Mac. Probably a purposeful thing.



Charise said:


> No Kool-aid for years in my house.  Of course, the publishers weren't happy. However, they did not change their pricing before Mr. Jobs's idea to make a deal with as many publishers as he could. So, yes, I do blame Apple for _instigating_ this, as I said previously.


I know it seems like Apple started the ball rolling... but it's not like the publishers were dragged kicking and screaming  Some people (probably not you) seem to think of Apple as the evil empire... as if Microsoft and other companies haven't similarly tried to take over certain aspects of computers.


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## Shades228

What's a premium PC? Please define it and then pick an iMac or something with the specs and I bet that anyone can find computers with the same specification requirements for much cheaper with a PC. People who own them like to state this because it helps with the mythos that was created around Apple. It's not really true but people like to tell themselves that. You can buy absolute crap parts for a PC easily because, unlike Mac OS, you can install other OS's on any computer which makes the market larger so you will have a wide range of options.


I could get into different things but it boils down to this. People who like Apple will continue to like Apple regardless of other people's opinions. People who don't probably won't be swayed either. Some people don't like or like the other for the wrong reasons but in the end it doesn't really matter.


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## lparsons21

Shades228, I agree with what you say about those that like the Mac and Apple products in general. We do tend to like them and will probably always like them if Apple keeps going they way they are.

As to loading an OS on computers. You can, and some do, load OSX, Windows and Linux on their Macs. It isn't hard to do at all, and the OS's tend to run just fine. My iMac has OSX on it, and for the very rare times I need Windows, I use VMWare and it runs just fine that way too.

And for price comparisons, well you can do them and I have. But it is an effort in futility because if I find a unit that matches perfectly, the questions always then are about why I included something in the config that the questioner finds little if any value for. But compare the new ultrabook designs to the MacBook Air and you'll find that they are not all that far apart in price. Apple will be higher in most cases, the difference isn't huge.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

An article from Feb 2012, comparing a few different Macs with a few different PCs and noting the price gap has shrank (and went the other way in one case)...

*http://www.techerator.com/2012/02/are-macs-really-overpriced-the-pc-mac-price-gap-is-shrinking/*

It is difficult to find a lot of direct comparisons because the combinations of Mac configurations don't match one-to-one with similar PCs.

If you compare the cheapest PC to the cheapest Mac, the PC wins on price hands-down... and if you only want to do email and Web and little things... then your money wouldn't be well spent on a Mac.

But if you want a computer that will last (both in terms of performance and craftmanship) and you are planning on doing more than web surfing and emailing... you might want to consider a Mac Mini over the bargain basement PC.

If you compare the Mac Pro to PC Servers, you get more favorable comparisons with Apple... and in some cases a Mac Pro can outperform a more expensive PC Server. It depend on the configuration you want.

The iMacs are harder to compare... you can try and compare with other desktops but its hard to guage form-factor (iMac taking less space on the table) than a separate PC + monitor config.

You can compare to other all-in-one computers... and some of them are still cheaper than iMacs... but do you know if you are getting the same quality of components? You might be... but even so, the price differences aren't as great as they used to be.


----------



## lparsons21

The iMacs are very hard to compare. Most other AIOs are all plastic casing with really crap keyboards and mice at prices that are not all the much lower than a nearly equivalent iMac. And most of them don't come with bluetooth at all, and while most seem to have wireless including 'n', it is 2.4Ghz all the way, not 5Ghz in them. And in general, upgrading an AIO is a daunting task regardless of mfg 'cause that isn't the way things are in the AIO machines.

Example, a friend bought a very nice HP Touchsmart. Upgrading RAM was quite easy, as it is on the iMac. But that was pretty much all you could do, just as in the iMac. He paid less for that than I would have for an iMac of a similar screen size, but then paid some more money to add a good keyboard and mouse to the mix. I actually liked the design of the HP keyboard, but it was extremely flimsy which detracted from the design. In the end, the difference was a couple hundred bucks. And for that difference, I would take the iMac all metal design, superior keyboard and absolutely great mouse any day. Well actually my great mouse is in a drawer as the Magic Trackpad is just so much better!


----------



## Charise

Stewart Vernon said:
 

> I know it seems like Apple started the ball rolling... but it's not like the publishers were dragged kicking and screaming  Some people (probably not you) seem to think of Apple as the evil empire... as if Microsoft and other companies haven't similarly tried to take over certain aspects of computers.


According to what I have read, Jobs contacted the publishers, not the other way around. Kicking and screaming? I'm sure the publishers jumped in with both feet! With the number of sold iPhones and iPads, publishers looked to him as their savior, I have no doubt.

Like I said, perhaps I'm not the most adventurous or demanding in what I do with computers, and my only limited time using a Mac was in the mid-90s. I was more familiar with my Aptiva (yeah, I know :lol, and found I had no further desire to play with Macs. I liked what I could already do, and quicktime was a pain to use, so I haven't looked back.

The two reasons I read about/hear from people who use Apple products are 1) it just works; and 2) it's so intuitive. I have no problems with Windows in either category, so I will stay where I am.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

One side note - Hackers are now attacking Macs. Please - if you have a Mac - install and run anti-virus/malware software. Your days of immunity from cybercrime are now officially over.


----------



## Laxguy

wilbur_the_goose said:


> One side note - Hackers are now attacking Macs. Please - if you have a Mac - install and run anti-virus/malware software. Your days of immunity from cybercrime are now officially over.


Macs have been assailed from day one. There have been challenges out there with cash rewards for successful hacking into Macs.

But intelligent use means for most of us: No AV crap.

And I am not saying it will never ever happen. Don't forget that AV works only if it knows what to look for.....


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Yeah... that's the thing, whether you run a PC or a Mac... responsible computer use can all but eliminate virus infection.

Macs have never been immune, they are just targeted less on average. Linux isn't immune either, but since it is freeware, most of the skilled programmers who might develop a virus for Linux are too busy developing things to incorporate into Linux 

Most of the virus infections result from people essentially leaving their metaphorical door open to allow them inside.


----------



## lparsons21

I've run AV software on my Mac for quite some time. At first so it would catch the Windows viruses that might show up so I didn't end up passing them to friends I correspond with, and now because there are some things out there.

After a few years, nothing has ever been found with it, which tells me that because I don't go to those kind of sites that seem to be loaded with all the crap, I don't get much exposure. It also tells me that if I were using a Windows box all the time, I wouldn't be getting anything with it either.

Not 100% solution as there really isn't a 100% solution. I use the free Sophos software.


----------



## harsh

Go Beavs said:


> Networking and file sharing is simple, bonjour is a real nice feature.


It is precisely because of the pain and suffering of sharing content (what is in the files is what is important) that I've always disliked the Mac. Needing an full-blown application to write or read a memo has always escaped me since the early days of the Mac. How many millions of questions have their been over the years about converting from MacWrite to Word or Word to iWork?

Even having to do end-of-line conversions within the Mac community slays me.

Sharing files in the Apple world is easy if you get all of your content from Apple. Who would willingly put themselves in such a position?


----------



## lparsons21

LOL! Nice look at the history of Mac vs PC!

Those issues are not issues these days and haven't been for many years.

Yes, you can get apps that won't share the content with apps from others, but Office and even FOSS versions of it are available for the Mac, and most apps these days come in both Mac (unix) flavors and Windows. Just not a real issue unless you just have to use Mac only apps, which is seldom the case.


----------



## dpeters11

It doesn't take much to get hit by a virus, even for someone that generally knows what they are doing. At one point, even the New York Times website got hit by a malicious ad.

I'm a pretty safe web user, and I still use AV of some sort. I have no reason not to.


----------



## harsh

lparsons21 said:


> Those issues are not issues these days and haven't been for many years.


As long as you have to seek out intermediary software or services to exchange content with others, the problems remain.


----------



## mashandhogan

I'm Windows from head to toe. I own 2 Windows 7 PC. I own a Windows Phone. I refuse to use an iPod, iPad, or iPhone. 

For you Mac Lovers:
The only good thing about Apple, Inc. is iMovie.


----------



## lparsons21

harsh said:


> As long as you have to seek out intermediary software or services to exchange content with others, the problems remain.


Since you seldom have to do that, it isn't an issue. Word processors of many levels on both platforms have the ability to see files produced.

Send me a data file in nearly any major products format and reading it on the Mac is a non-issue. That a Windows user wouldn't know how to do that in reverse says more about the user than anything else.

Hell, it isn't even as bad as it used to be in the DOS and earlier Windows times. Remember Word Perfect, Word and Wordstar? None could read the others documents.

You're trying to make a mountain out of an anthill!


----------



## lparsons21

mashandhogan said:


> I'm Windows from head to toe. I own 2 Windows 7 PC. I own a Windows Phone. I refuse to use an iPod, iPad, or iPhone.
> 
> For you Mac Lovers:
> The only good thing about Apple, Inc. is iMovie.


Glad you like what you have. I enjoy using my Apple products as much as you enjoy your Windows boxes. And of course, I like that Apple makes stuff that just works...


----------



## Stewart Vernon

harsh said:


> As long as you have to seek out intermediary software or services to exchange content with others, the problems remain.


Not sure what you are talking about here. Please name some specific examples, because I've had no troubles accessing PC files on my Mac.

There are often free apps available too, so you don't even have to buy some things. OpenOffice, for example, is available for PC and Mac and reads/writes Office format as well as its own format if you so choose.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

mashandhogan said:


> For you Mac Lovers:
> The only good thing about Apple, Inc. is iMovie.


What's funny about that statement.... is that I don't know if I've ran iMovie more than twice in the several years I've owned my iMac.


----------



## lparsons21

Stewart Vernon said:


> Not sure what you are talking about here. Please name some specific examples, because I've had no troubles accessing PC files on my Mac.
> 
> There are often free apps available too, so you don't even have to buy some things. OpenOffice, for example, is available for PC and Mac and reads/writes Office format as well as its own format if you so choose.


I'm wondering the same thing. I can and do read and write Word documents, same with Excel documents. I choose to use Pages and Numbers to do it, but I could just as easily get MS Office for Mac, or Open Office. Heck, not only can Pages create a Word document, it can do RTF, PDF, Plain Text and Epub.

Most of my other apps are cross-platform, like Sibelius (Music Engraving), PhotoScore (Music OCR), and others.

The only data format that is somewhat a standard that I don't think Mac supports is MS Access database stuff, but database files are notorious for being pretty app specific.


----------



## lparsons21

Stewart Vernon said:


> What's funny about that statement.... is that I don't know if I've ran iMovie more than twice in the several years I've owned my iMac.


Way back when, iMovie was what made me take a hard look at the Mac. The Windows movie apps at consumer level were really pathetic then, and others were really expensive.

Even though I had played with the Mac with pre-OSX Macs, they were all used and either free or cheap, gotten mostly to fiddle with.

When I found that OSX brought a great Unix to the desktop and that apps were plentiful, with little issues about hardware addons and software issues, it became a no brainer to make the move. 1st up was the little Cube! Loved that box!


----------



## sigma1914

lparsons21 said:


> ... I like that Apple makes stuff that just works...


Then, why do Genius Bars exist?


----------



## lparsons21

sigma1914 said:


> Then, why do Genius Bars exist?


because some just cannot figure out how to do things. One of the things I noticed watching a Genius Bar person explaining something to a customer was that the customer wanted to do something the Windows way and not the Mac way and was having problems grasping the concept.

And of course the Genius Bars also exist to fix things when they quit just working.

So far, after a few Macs, I've only had one needing any kind of repair and that was for a drive that threw SMART errors in this iMac. It was working fine at the time, I just noticed the errors when I was in Disk Utility for some other reason.


----------



## sigma1914

I honestly don't get the war between PC dorks & iGeeks. In 16 years of home PC ownership I've never had a virus brick a PC, had one POS Compaq, & excellent Dells. Apple makes great stuff. It's like Dish vs DirecTV ... who cares as long as you're happy.

Apple people are easily riled up, though, and that's fun.


----------



## Laxguy

mashandhogan said:


> I'm Windows from head to toe. I own 2 Windows 7 PC. I own a Windows Phone. I refuse to use an iPod, iPad, or iPhone.


Then you have no basis for comparison, Q.E.D., and you're just, uh, posting.


----------



## Laxguy

sigma1914 said:


> Then, why do Genius Bars exist?


To assist hapless converters.


----------



## Laxguy

harsh said:


> It is precisely because of the pain and suffering of sharing content (what is in the files is what is important) that I've always disliked the Mac. Needing an full-blown application to write or read a memo has always escaped me since the early days of the Mac. How many millions of questions have their been over the years about converting from MacWrite to Word or Word to iWork?


Guess what Mr. Bill and Ballmer did in the 80's, 90's and 2000's? Directed their people to make constant changes in Word so that Macs would be hard pressed to convert, and PC users would be compelled to "upgrade" more often.

Now it's a non-issue. Pages handles the stupid .docx better than some Word packages on PCs.


----------



## Laxguy

sigma1914 said:


> I honestly don't get the war between PC dorks & iGeeks. In 16 years of home PC ownership I've never had a virus brick a PC, had one POS Compaq, & excellent Dells. Apple makes great stuff. It's like Dish vs DirecTV ... who cares as long as you're happy.
> 
> Apple people are easily riled up, though, and that's fun.


I think you've answered your own question! And you don't mind the occasional troll.....I don't make too many unfounded statements about equipment I don't choose to use- that'd just be harsh. But I like a good argument. :nono2:


----------



## sigma1914

Laxguy said:


> I think you've answered your own question! And you don't mind the occasional troll.....I don't make too many unfounded statements about equipment I don't choose to use- that'd just be harsh. But I like a good argument. :nono2:


What question? I don't make unfounded statements about Apple. Heck, I think their products are amazing, but unfortunately can't use the ones (iPad, iPhone) I'd like to because of limited dexterity issues.


----------



## Laxguy

sigma1914 said:


> What question? I don't make unfounded statements about Apple. Heck, I think their products are amazing, but unfortunately can't use the ones (iPad, iPhone) I'd like to because of limited dexterity issues.


Didn't mean to imply you did! And the question I thought you answered is about why there's a war between PC and Mac users.... that Mac users are easily riled. And you threw out a bit of troll bait. Nothing was meant to slight you in anyway, and I am also sorry to learn that you have dexterity issues. I am surprised; it doesn't show at all.


----------



## sigma1914

Laxguy said:


> Didn't mean to imply you did! And the question I thought you answered is about why there's a war between PC and Mac users.... that Mac users are easily riled. And you threw out a bit of troll bait. Nothing was meant to slight you in anyway, and I am also sorry to learn that you have dexterity issues. I am surprised; it doesn't show at all.


It's all good, bud, we were both confused. :lol:

Thankfully, Windows 7 has a much better on-screen keyboard with predictive text that helps tremendously. I just point & click. Macs have a similar on screen keyboard I just believe it lacks predictive text.

If iPad ever allowed using a mouse, then I'd order in a heartbeat.


----------



## Go Beavs

"Laxguy" said:


> Guess what Mr. Bill and Ballmer did in the 80's, 90's and 2000's? Directed their people to make constant changes in Word so that Macs would be hard pressed to convert, and PC users would be compelled to "upgrade" more often.
> 
> Now it's a non-issue. Pages handles the stupid .docx better than some Word packages on PCs.


Yeah, most common files are a non issue on a Mac. Preview handles viewing Word, PDF, Excel, etc. documents with ease. Heck, Preview can even re-order, combine, and breakout PDF pages right out of the box. That's a super cool feature IMHO. I've been looking for a free program for Windows that can do that and haven't had any luck so far.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Honestly, the new Windows 8 "metro" paradigm may have me considering Apple for the first time since 1986.


----------



## lparsons21

sigma1914 said:


> It's all good, bud, we were both confused. :lol:
> 
> Thankfully, Windows 7 has a much better on-screen keyboard with predictive text that helps tremendously. I just point & click. Macs have a similar on screen keyboard I just believe it lacks predictive text.
> 
> If iPad ever allowed using a mouse, then I'd order in a heartbeat.


OSX has predictive text although I don't know how good or easy it is to use. Do a Google search on 'OSX predictive text' and you'll find a number of videos about it.

As to a mouse on an iPad, I doubt it will happen. No cursor!


----------



## Nick

A mouse on an iPad = tits on a bull


----------



## RasputinAXP

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Honestly, the new Windows 8 "metro" paradigm may have me considering Apple for the first time since 1986.


Hope you like iPhone/iPad interfaces with a mouse and keyboard. Guess what's going to be the default interface after Mountain Lion?


----------



## Laxguy

RasputinAXP said:


> Hope you like iPhone/iPad interfaces with a mouse and keyboard. Guess what's going to be the default interface after Mountain Lion?


You quite sure? Source?

In any event, those who don't like it will simply not use the default.


----------



## RasputinAXP

Was on Macrumors.com a week or two back. Possibly more. I'm not a Mac guy so I don't pay close attention to it.


----------



## Laxguy

Ah, thanks, then. I've been lucky enough to have been with Apple starting with the Mac Plus, and have never gotten too excited over GUI changes. They all work for me.


----------



## billsharpe

Nick said:


> A mouse on an iPad = tits on a bull


+1

Nick, you made me laugh. Perhaps this should be cross-posted in "Laughter is the Best Medicine." 

I've been using PC's exclusively since 1984 but the iPod Touch and iPad rock.


----------



## lugnutathome

I have a dour view of Microsoft's OS in general. Partly because I learned UNIX first and when exposed to any other OS I see why UNIX did this and that. Only when viewed that way does it (UNIX) make sense however and it's not for people expecting an "easy" button.

My biggest thing with WindUp though is that they have made it acceptable for it to just stop functioning and that a reboot fixes all. Which it fixes nothing, just reloads it till that problem or another comes along.

Now it has hit "Enterprise Class" and I work at a place that eschewed drinking the kool Aide in favor of snorting it directly from the packets. Now instead of uptimes rated in multiple months or years we are rebooting servers monthly, the seemingly made for everyone SqlServer requires much hands on care and feeding when scaled out for big tasks.

Don't get me wrong, their non cursor based architecture lets it run like a raped ape but its lights out functionality is positively Flinstonian and requires a lot of care and feeding. Stuff when I was young would overlook but nowadays I need my ugly sleep.:grin:

Mac (a BSD UNIX at its core) with an interface near toddlers can learn to use. I really am most impressed from the buy and go functionality but I have had to do the reboot dance a time or two on my iPhone4

As my PCs age out I am replacing them with MAC Minis and am finding the iPad for the most part is most of what I need.

Don "Windows: just say NO" Bolton


----------



## P Smith

Now we could talk about easy access to passwords in MacOX Lion:


> Apple security blunder exposes Lion login passwords in clear text
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/security/...oses-lion-login-passwords-in-clear-text/11963


----------



## lparsons21

P Smith said:


> Now we could talk about easy access to passwords in MacOX Lion:


That only applies for those that upgraded to Lion AND use the older FileVault.

The people that don't use any FileVault, or use the newer version, don't have an issue.


----------



## Laxguy

lparsons21 said:


> That only applies for those that upgraded to Lion AND use the older FileVault.
> 
> The people that don't use any FileVault, or use the newer version, don't have an issue.


I prefer the old "no one's peeking over my shoulder" security, esp. those with photographic memories (or mammaries) who could memorize the key strokes and don't need to see the clear text.

Talk about insignificant "issues"! :nono2:


----------



## Matt9876

I consider myself a PC guy but in reality since the Itouch and Ipad arrived in my home I use both.

I have a newer Windows7 64 bit laptop machine for the wife and thinking about a new large memory Ipad to replace my Windows XP laptop.

Yes it's an apples and oranges thing, Guess I like them both.:grin:


----------



## Herdfan

RasputinAXP said:


> Hope you like iPhone/iPad interfaces with a mouse and keyboard. Guess what's going to be the default interface after Mountain Lion?





Laxguy said:


> You quite sure? Source?
> 
> In any event, those who don't like it will simply not use the default.


That is just Launchpad. It debuted in Lion. Don't think it is going to be the standard.


----------



## jdskycaster

A better title for this thread would be the official Windows vs. OS X thread. A PC and a MAC are virtually the same device except for this. It might also reduce the number of posts comparing a cell phone or an digital music player to a personal computer.


----------



## Laxguy

jdskycaster said:


> A better title for this thread would be the official Windows vs. OS X thread. A PC and a MAC are virtually the same device except for this. It might also reduce the number of posts comparing a cell phone or an digital music player to a personal computer.


It's Mac; MAC is entirely different, usually meaning Machine Access Code. And I can't agree that the machines are not different!

As to posts that are off topic, will new title preclude those??


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Laxguy said:


> And I can't agree that the machines are not different!


If you strip away the mechanicals... once Apple switched over to Intel CPUs about a decade ago, there isn't much difference in the hardware.

Heck, The OS X physical media comes with Windows device drivers for the hardware so that you can use Boot Camp to create a dual-boot and install Windows operating systems natively on the hardware and not inside of just a virtual machine. That is pretty much the definition, then, of "not different" than a Windows machine at that point.


----------



## jdskycaster

Laxguy said:


> It's Mac; MAC is entirely different, usually meaning Machine Access Code. And I can't agree that the machines are not different!
> 
> As to posts that are off topic, will new title preclude those??


Sorry if I offended you by using all caps as it was just easier for me to type it that way. Thought anyone would assume that in a pc vs. mac thread those reading would assume I was not referring to something else.

FYI, MAC can mean many things not just machine access code. Just a few examples: media access control, macro, message authentication code, mandatory access control, man and computer, mathematics and computation, machine always crashes, mutliplexed analogue components, machine aided cognition, mutliple architecture computer, motorola advanced computer, move add or change, multi-access computer or my personal favorite - moron accessible computer....

And yes, I do think it would be much more difficult to compare an ipod to a personal computer when you are talking specifically about operating systems and not hardware.

In case anyone cares, I like Ubuntu.


----------



## Laxguy

Good Heavens: It's not just about the CPUs! 

And while you can boot to 'Doze onna modern Mac, you cannot boot to OSX on a PC. 

Major differences.


----------



## Herdfan

Stewart Vernon said:


> If you strip away the mechanicals... once Apple switched over to Intel CPUs about a decade ago, there isn't much difference in the hardware.
> 
> That is pretty much the definition, then, of "not different" than a Windows machine at that point.


While true, the integration with the OS is much tighter with Apple hardware and OSX. With Windows, anyone can build a component and write a driver, stick it in a white box and hope it works. With Mac's and OSX, there are a limited number of configurations, so the OS doesn't have to deal with flaky components.

Dell and HP try to make sure they use components that work well together, but once that box leaves their hands, they lose that control. Apple does not.


----------



## Laxguy

jdskycaster said:


> Sorry if I offended you by using all caps as it was just easier for me to type it that way. Thought anyone would assume that in a pc vs. mac thread those reading would assume I was not referring to something else.
> 
> FYI, MAC can mean many things


Not offended, nor confused by your meaning in context.


----------



## lparsons21

Laxguy said:


> Good Heavens: It's not just about the CPUs!
> 
> And while you can boot to 'Doze onna modern Mac, you cannot boot to OSX on a PC.
> 
> Major differences.


Well, not quite! 

It is a PITA to do, but there are all sorts of sites with methods to get OSX on a PC. The caution is that drivers can be a real issue and some things might not work when you get done.

But it is doable.


----------



## Laxguy

Yes, I shoulda put a big caveat in there: "Without major potential problems with drivers, having to use third party software, and the general PITA" you mention.


----------



## lparsons21

Which can also be an issue with some Linux distributions, although not as bad as it once was. Still, laptops can be an issue, and as more mfgs are making single board configs fairly standard, not unheard of with them either.

The weakest point between OSX and Windows was hardware compatibility. It was always a big pain to try to ensure you could get drivers for scanners (really was weak with them) and such. These days, it is rare to find some external hardware that won't work with OSX.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Laxguy said:


> Good Heavens: It's not just about the CPUs!
> 
> And while you can boot to 'Doze onna modern Mac, you cannot boot to OSX on a PC.
> 
> Major differences.


Well... You can't do it legally, and I'm not recommending that you try... but the major stumbling block is that OSX checks to see if it is being installed on Apple Hardware. Once you are past that, it is all about the device drivers being available for the PC hardware under OS X. That could be a problem.

It's only a "major difference" because of Apple trying to keep control of their own operating system. More on that later...



Herdfan said:


> While true, the integration with the OS is much tighter with Apple hardware and OSX.
> 
> ...
> 
> Dell and HP try to make sure they use components that work well together, but once that box leaves their hands, they lose that control. Apple does not.


True... and this is a big advantage. It makes an Apple computer a lot like an Xbox or PS3... in that the hardware and operating system go out with a limited number of configurations all of which are known by the operating system programmers... so no need to try and accommodate non-standard options.

IBM had a chance to have this same stranglehold a couple of times... Gates wanted to sell MS-DOS to them, but they chose to develop their own instead... even though MS-DOS continued to be more popular than PC-DOS.

When Windows rolled around (even the text-based DOS version) IBM had nothing to offer... so by the time they had an actual good operating system in-house (OS/2 was more stable than that generation's version of Windows)... Microsoft had already set the standard and left IBM in the cold in terms of pairing their own operating system with the PC design.

That failing of IBM to "lock it down" ultimately led to wide-adoption and cheaper prices for us consumers... but it introduced the nightmare scenarios of programming for anything and everything because you never knew what combination of hardware you might encounter.

Meanwhile Apple chugged along controlling the hardware and the operating system... and it made it tougher to develop for Apple because Apple keeps things tight-lipped... BUT if you ever got the hang of it, you didn't have to develop for hundreds and thousands of different hardware combinations.

This made Apple computers slower to adopt and kept the prices higher... but also helped with compatibility and stability if you chose to own one.


----------



## dpeters11

And one reason Apple does hardware checks and such, I believe they still don't use serial numbers or anything of the sort. Heck, Apple is offering free upgrades to Snow Leopard so that users can then upgrade to Lion.


----------



## heathramos

Nick said:


> A mouse on an iPad = tits on a bull


well...a mouse would make RDP to a Windows PC easier


----------



## dpeters11

Pocketcloud has a pretty nice onscreen mouse function.


----------



## heathramos

lparsons21 said:


> I'm wondering the same thing. I can and do read and write Word documents, same with Excel documents. I choose to use Pages and Numbers to do it, but I could just as easily get MS Office for Mac, or Open Office. Heck, not only can Pages create a Word document, it can do RTF, PDF, Plain Text and Epub.
> 
> Most of my other apps are cross-platform, like Sibelius (Music Engraving), PhotoScore (Music OCR), and others.
> 
> The only data format that is somewhat a standard that I don't think Mac supports is MS Access database stuff, but database files are notorious for being pretty app specific.


I'm sure you can create and edit Office documents but is it 100% compatible?

I know OpenOffice on Ubuntu warns about macros when creating files in MS formats.


----------



## Laxguy

heathramos said:


> I'm sure you can create and edit Office documents but is it 100% compatible?
> 
> I know OpenOffice on Ubuntu warns about macros when creating files in MS formats.


"Nothing is 100% compatible".....! :hurah: And in this case, probably more than just Macros. But then there're lots among the various versions of at least .doc in the MS world.


----------



## braven

lparsons21 said:


> Well, not quite!
> 
> It is a PITA to do, but there are all sorts of sites with methods to get OSX on a PC. The caution is that drivers can be a real issue and some things might not work when you get done.
> 
> But it is doable.


... and I'm pretty sure it's illegal.


----------



## harsh

Laxguy said:


> Good Heavens: It's not just about the CPUs!
> 
> And while you can boot to 'Doze onna modern Mac, you cannot boot to OSX on a PC.


To take your argument one step further, it isn't about what operating systems you can boot but rather what applications that will run.

To put a sharp point on one aspect of the question, can one reliably run DIRECTV2PC on a typical Mac?

I used to consult for a graphic design company that ran Macintosh software (68K based) on Commodore Amiga computers with emulation software and hardware (needed primarily to handle those screwy multi-speed Macintosh floppy discs). Everything seemed to work.

The incidence of solutions that demand a Mac seem pretty few and far between.

From a personal computing standpoint, both platforms are pretty hopelessly bloated with overwrought security and backwards compatibility but on Windows, that actually buys you something in terms of practical applications you might want to run.


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## Laxguy

As reliably as you can run it! :hurah:

That old thing is being superseded by iOS and Android apps, and I do get your point that there are specialty apps that run only on PCs. Not a biggie for many reasons.


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## Herdfan

braven said:


> ... and I'm pretty sure it's illegal.


Is it illegal, or just against the TOS?


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## lparsons21

harsh said:


> To take your argument one step further, it isn't about what operating systems you can boot but rather what applications that will run.
> 
> To put a sharp point on one aspect of the question, can one reliably run DIRECTV2PC on a typical Mac?
> 
> I used to consult for a graphic design company that ran Macintosh software (68K based) on Commodore Amiga computers with emulation software and hardware (needed primarily to handle those screwy multi-speed Macintosh floppy discs). Everything seemed to work.
> 
> The incidence of solutions that demand a Mac seem pretty few and far between.
> 
> From a personal computing standpoint, both platforms are pretty hopelessly bloated with overwrought security and backwards compatibility but on Windows, that actually buys you something in terms of practical applications you might want to run.


I can and have run Direct2PC on my Mac and it works about as good as it does on my W7 laptop, and that is not really all that good. Direct2PC isn't a good piece of software to try to make a point with, imo.

And yes, there are not as many reasons from an application standpoint to pick Mac over Windows. But there are plenty of good reasons to pick a Mac anyway. Solid built, reliable, stable. Other than a software update of a rare type, I haven't rebooted my 27" iMac since I bought it. Well, I did have to when the HD died. That certainly isn't the case for a Windows box if you like to keep the performance up.

And there are plenty of practical applications for the Mac too you know. It isn't like some times in the past when there were gaping holes in software coverage. But then since virtualization works so well, I can (and sometimes do) run both W7 and Linux on my Mac.

From a personal computer standpoint, both OSX and Windows 7 have a lot to offer. And on the desktop, they are the only 2 OS's with any real marketshare.


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## lparsons21

Herdfan said:


> Is it illegal, or just against the TOS?


Against TOS. So it is a civil matter, not a criminal one. And I think it is one that hasn't been tested in court yet.


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## Stewart Vernon

Laxguy said:


> "Nothing is 100% compatible".....! :hurah: And in this case, probably more than just Macros. But then there're lots among the various versions of at least .doc in the MS world.


Exactly... Office isn't even always compatible with itself!


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## heathramos

Stewart Vernon said:


> Exactly... Office isn't even always compatible with itself!


true...especially with Access but even pivot tables in Excel had some significant changes between versions.

Of course in a business environment, you can standardize to one version of Office and not worry about it. The issue will come when people are working offsite using a different OS or onsite using a non-standard desktop. For the home user, you could either force people to use standardized laptops or run virtual machines if compatibility is a concern.

It would be nice if Microsoft could make versions of Office that could work on every OS in mixed environments so we could eliminate that as a concern.

Of course in my case, I would like things like IE and silverlight/moonlight to work on other OSs as well.

somewhat off topic, though, since OS choices from a personal standpoint is different than a corporate one.

I still think it is mostly an application driven choice as well as personal preference, kind of like choosing between an Xbox and PS3.


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## harsh

Laxguy said:


> That old thing is being superseded by iOS and Android apps, and I do get your point that there are specialty apps that run only on PCs. Not a biggie for many reasons.


It is a biggie if you're looking for stuff like home automation or are into amateur radio, model railroading, RC models or some of the other deep pockets hobbies. In many of those uses, Linux may be a better choice than either OSX or Windows.

Surely a lot of people aren't really using the computer as more than a simple Internet appliance, but I'm not convinced that those people need much more than a smart TV or a media player with web browsing capability.


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## harsh

heathramos said:


> It would be nice if Microsoft could make versions of Office that could work on every OS in mixed environments so we could eliminate that as a concern.


What would be even better if we all used applications that were designed around platform independence. If you consistently use less than 10% of what an application supports, you're wasting something.


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## Stewart Vernon

In the early Mac days... Desktop Publishing software on the Mac ran circles around similar software on the PC. Sometimes you couldn't even find an equivalent PC app... I'm talking 20+ years ago here.

Apple (and Adobe) pioneered things like scalable fonts and the capability to generate a document on your computer that would paginate the same on another computer without someone having to tinker with it. The first Mac had a 72dpi screen and, though small, was standard across all Macs and was a good standard to develop to for consistency-sake.

Word on the PC (and even on the Mac for that matter) was notorious in those days for paginating completely different from one computer to the next and making it a challenge to finish a document and deliver it to someone in a form that would look as you intended (and would print as you intended).

In those same days, however, spreadsheets and games were almost impossible to find on the Mac but were abundant on the PC. It was a weird thing.

I don't know when exactly it happened... but there was a crossover point where some people tried to develop games and other stuff for the Mac, and the Mac developers like Adobe began to port versions of their Desktop Publishing software over to the PC... the early endeavors were poor for BOTH platforms.

But... the PC development continued, while the Mac development waned. Apple was notoriously difficult to work with in those days and believe it or not Microsoft was FAR more open about telling you what APIs they had for you to use... so it was easier to develop and get support for the PC, and a lot of programmers abandoned the Mac.

Once the Desktop Publishing apps were up to snuff on the PC... even those people started migrating back to the PC from the Mac... and for a lot of other reasons the Mac began to lose ground for several years there.

Now that Apple is having a heyday again... you can't beat Desktop Publishing on the Mac. You can equal it, though... but you can't beat it. You just can't. The only notable exception is that Adobe stopped developing FrameMaker for the Mac several versions ago and about 10 years ago... I guess the Mac wasn't "back" enough to support that program development... though Adobe continues to develop all of their other top-of-the-field Desktop Publishing tools for both Mac and PC.

All that was meant to get me to this...

For Desktop Publishing you can go either way... but I still recommend a Mac for ease of use and performance and compatibility.

For just about everything else (primarily I'm talking programming, games, databases, etc.) you will generally find more and better software for the PC.

That's just the way it is... though, with the success of gaming on the iPad and iPhone you are seeing the most games EVER for the Mac I think... so that may begin to turn a corner... and Apple does make a nice programming developer kit available for practically free and unlike the iPad/iPhone, you can develop programs for sale on a Mac without going through Apple or iTunes if you like (though you can as well)... so that is becoming a little easier on the Mac as well.


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## Laxguy

Good retrospective!


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## lparsons21

Well, that was a good retrospective, with only one error I could spot.

And that was spreadsheets. Did you know that the first spreadsheet application was Visicalc and it was written for and ran on a Mac and Mac only back in the day?

here's a link: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa010199.htm


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## dennisj00

Technically, it was the Apple II and was quickly released about a year later for the TRS-80 and Atari.


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## Stewart Vernon

lparsons21 said:


> Well, that was a good retrospective, with only one error I could spot.
> 
> And that was spreadsheets. Did you know that the first spreadsheet application was Visicalc and it was written for and ran on a Mac and Mac only back in the day?
> 
> here's a link: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa010199.htm


I didn't know that... but that was for the Apple II. Apple (if you go back before the Macintosh) actually innovated some more things... not just the personal computer BUT a personal computer that had expansion slots!

But... for the purposes of this thread I was just discussing Mac vs PC... and ignoring all that came before those platforms.

You inspired me to dig a little, though... and look what I found:

*http://epiac1216.wordpress.com/2009/04/25/the-early-days-of-spreadsheets/

*From that article:

*"Multiplan for the Apple Macinosh was Microsoft's first GUI (Graphic User Interface) spreadsheet; it was also the most successful spreadsheet for the early Mac. Bill Gates was repeatedly heard in 1985 saying that Microsoft made more money on Multiplan for the Macintosh than any other platform. Multiplan for the Macintosh was in fact one of the few spreadsheets available for that platform."*


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## dmspen

Remember when Office updates came out for the MAC first?


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## Brandon428

My first computer was an old Macintosh,don't remember what the model was I think it was a II but I'm not sure. Then a friend of mine bought a PC and it had windows 95 on it. I was blown away and entranced at the incredibly easy user interface. I grew up with windows most of my childhood and my teen years.

I was always anti Apple because I bought into the lie that Apple was over priced and didn't have much support. So I finally decided to give Apple a chance. I bought an iPod video (30g) it cost a little over $300 but after playing with my sisters iPod I really wanted one.

Then I met a friend who used to work for Apple,he was a big Apple fanboy and had the new Apple phone. I was just in aww of how well it worked. I immediately went and bought one. Unfortunately I was with Centennial and not AT&T so I had to buy mine outright for $600,but it was worth it!

About a year after than I bought a Macbook and the rest is history. I've never gone back to PC and since my fist Macbook I've owned every kind of Macintosh computer besides the mini and Pro which I'm thinking about getting a Pro in the near future.

My advice is give Apple a try. There isn't a big learning curve,it's not that expensive(I buy most of my stuff refurbished on www.apple.com) don't buy into the lies. Everyone I have ever recommended a Mac to has thanked me even years later for introducing them to the Mac OS. In fact my best friend last night told me his Macbook Pro "15 was the best thing he's ever bought. I feel sometimes that Apple should be paying me commission for all the Apple products I've sold! lol It's not that I like selling stuff for Apple it's just when someone asks me what the best computer,phone,etc. to buy is 99% of the time an Apple product. Their NOT perfect but it's really as close as you can get.

If you give it a chance you will not be disappointed and if yo can't let Windows go just partition your drive and install Windows. You cannot go wrong with a Mac.


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## Herdfan

Brandon428 said:


> So I finally decided to give Apple a chance. I bought an iPod video (30g) it cost a little over $300 but after playing with my sisters iPod I really wanted one.
> 
> Then I met a friend who used to work for Apple,he was a big Apple fanboy and had the new Apple phone. I was just in aww of how well it worked.


My first Apple product was the original iPod Nano. We were getting ready to go on a long trip and I bought it for my daughter who had just turned 6. I loaded some songs on it for her and the day before we were getting ready to leave I gave it to her. She immediately and without any instruction was able to pull up her songs and play them.

My in-laws gave me a little grief for buying her the iPod when a $29 MP3 player would have been just fine for her. But the iPod allowed me to do something generic players didn't. I could set the top loudness so no matter how much she turned it up, it only got so loud. Well worth it to protect a young child's ears.


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## Laxguy

Did you ever present those in-laws with a nice fricaseed crow?


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## Herdfan

Laxguy said:


> Did you ever present those in-laws with a nice fricaseed crow?


No. Instead I bought them a Mac Mini. :eek2:

I did have some fun with them the first Thanksgiving they came here. They think I am a bit ******* anyway so after I served the turkey I warned them not to bite down too hard as I think I got all the shot out of it, but wasn't sure. :lol:


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## Laxguy

Herdfan said:


> No. Instead I bought them a Mac Mini. :eek2:
> 
> I did have some fun with them the first Thanksgiving they came here. They think I am a bit ******* anyway so after I served the turkey I warned them not to bite down too hard as I think I got all the shot out of it, but wasn't sure. :lol:


That wouldn't have raised an eyebrow in my family- we were always warned when duck or pheasant showed up. We never saw wild turkeys in the prairie lands where I grew up... they may have been there, but we didn't hunt them.


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## Brandon428

Does anyone on here have a Mac Pro?


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## Laxguy

I've recently lent mine to my son, but used it nicely for 3+ years.


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## P Smith

Laxguy said:


> I've recently lent mine to my son, but used it nicely for 3+ years.


Fully loaded ? What was HW spec of it ? I think it did cost you one arm and two legs that time of purchase.


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## RasputinAXP

Still costs several limbs.


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