# Plasma or LCD for SD?



## sikma

I've asked this question on another site but didn't get much of a response. I will be buying my first 42" flat-panel HDTV soon. My question is, because HD is obviously slow in coming via satellite, I want to buy which ever tv looks better in standard definition. Plasma vs LCD. Any comments would be appreciated.


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## dkjohn

That is a tricky question and would depend on the model and brand you would have to look for yourself to see what you prefer.


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## Jim5506

I have heard (not experienced) that you should view SD throught an s-video connection, because using DVI, HDMI or component with SD it is very blocky. My personal perference is CRT which handles all formats well, but my second choice would be plasma.

At 42 inches you are not talking about an enormous screen, so SD should not be a big problem any way. The terrible picture I hear complaints about are on screens in the mid 50 inches and up where the obvious flaws of SD are magnified.


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## dr928gt

I have a 32 LCD and 2 Plasmas (46 and 50) and hands down the LCD looks tons better on SD and it is not just because it is a larger screen on the plasmas as I can stand 2 feet from my 32 LCD and the difference it dramatic. Ironicaly the 32 LCD was only $900, don't wanna even think about the cost of the 2 plasmas.


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## tomcrown1

It depends on the brand. For instance the expensive Pioneer Palsma TV will do an excellent job and any input source. While in LCD I have found the Sharp Mitsubishi to be the best. Check the reviews on line for the brand of tv you plan to buy.


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## JM Anthony

Go to a high end A/V store where you can compare LCD, plasma, and DLP sets using a variety of inputs side by side. Best bang for the buck in my book is DLP, particularly the latest gen Samsungs. YMMV


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## olgeezer

1080p sets will be available this summer and fall in LCDs and Plasma. In these sets, I believe LCD has a picture quality and cost advantage. Look for 40,46, and 50+ 1080p sets by fal.


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## Capmeister

I can only tell you what my experience is. I have a Hitachi 60v500a, which is a 60 inch LCD Rear Projection, and I like the SD as well as HD pictures on it. Hitachi has some of the finest pictures on their TVs I think.


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## olgeezer

If market numbers mean anything, Sony went from 4 to 1 in less than a year with their Bravia line of LCD tvs. Even more impressive in microdisplays, Sony is 54% of the total market, #2 Samsung is 13%. LCD and LCOS microdisplays are showing large increases and DLPs are losing ground. To answer the question, of the sets I've seen SD appears better on LCD (name brand) than on Plasma (name brand). Polaroid, Westinghouse, Sylvania, Akai, etc. ain't NB.


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## Jeff McClellan

Sony LCD-RP is the way to go. I have a 50 inch and see no SDE.


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## Jason Nipp

sikma,

You can ask and receive opinions from users on this all day all night. I like dkjohn's advice the best. Go to a high end store that will let you put certain models side by side. When shopping, I recommend taking a DVD you know very well with you. I also recommend doing a factory defaults to the the set before you compare them (Opinion). 

I have just about all display technologies in my home. I have CRT, Plasma, LCD, and LCD RP. I have 2 Philips flat panels that are identical sizes, but one is a pixel plus plasma, the other is a pixel plus LCD. I have had these side by side, and the source content completely dictates outcome. I will state from my experience, there are limitations to both technologies, and there are certain situations that do make one a better choice than the other. Being in the industry, I could probably help give advice to your situation, but I definitely would need more information surrounding your environment and usage habits.

For instance:
* How big is the room this display will be in?
* How far away from the display is your seating position?
* How well lit is the room? Any skylights or big windows?
* Do you routinely watch images that are static, i.e picture slide shows?
* Do you play any video games?
* Is your vision sensitive to the point you see halos on headlights of cars at night time?
* Have you watched golf or soccer on TV in a bar or elsewhere and seen a streak, possibly a red/green/blue streak? (Note to veterans in here, DLP is not the only display type known to exhibit this phenomenon with sensitive viewers.)
* Is your intention to choose something that can easily be hung on the wall?
* What is your budget? Range?
* To your own taste, is bright vivid colors (almost exaggerated) more important than actually clarity of the display image?
* Do you live in a mountainous region where your elevation could exceed 1283 ft above sea level?
* Do you ever look at a display and believe the transitions on fast moving content are kind of jerky, not smooth and seamless? (Some people are more sensitive to this than others.)
* If you buy a flat panel, with the intention of hanging it on the wall, do you realize a good wall mount will cost you $299-$600 additional?
* If you intend on mounting above a fireplace, do you realize the heat can and probably will damage the display and that the viewing height will likely be uncomfortable after the coolness factor wears off? (Yes Jeff M, I did take both my displays down from above the fireplaces, I did loose the LCD from heat as well.)
* In all these display types, there are quirks that set them apart from each other, if you have been watching a 32 inch CRT or smaller, you must realize the traits of the picture will be different in any case, especially if the picture size is 50 inches or above.

Hope this helps, 
Jason


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## olgeezer

* Do you live in a mountainous region where your elevation could exceed 1283 ft above sea level?

Jason, What mountains are that high?


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## harsh

Jason Nipp said:


> I like dkjohn's advice the best. Go to a high end store that will let you put certain models side by side.


I disagree with both of you. You need to shop where you're going to buy. It isn't the display technology that makes for a good SD display, it is the scaling hardware. What looks flawless on a high-end plasma may be intolerable on a low-end plasma with the same resolution.


> When shopping, I recommend taking a DVD you know very well with you.


I recommend shopping at some place that can show you what your TV will look like using the source you'll usually be watching. It may or may not cost more, but it will allow you to judge for yourself given the most similar conditions.

I appreciate that someone is thinking about how SD content looks as it will be with us for quite a while yet.

I personally lust for the 50" Sony Grand Wega SXRD (1080p LCoS, <$3K). It is no flat panel, but the display and the image processing are incredible (and I had sworn off of Sony).


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## tomcrown1

harsh said:


> I personally lust for the 50" Sony Grand Wega SXRD (1080p LCoS, <$3K). It is no flat panel, but the display and the image processing are incredible (and I had sworn off of Sony).


opps you swore off sony now thats a dirty shame(word) ah forget have another drink hicup(opps wrong thread)


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## socceteer

dr928gt said:


> I have a 32 LCD and 2 Plasmas (46 and 50) and hands down the LCD looks tons better on SD and it is not just because it is a larger screen on the plasmas as I can stand 2 feet from my 32 LCD and the difference it dramatic. Ironicaly the 32 LCD was only $900, don't wanna even think about the cost of the 2 plasmas.


I have the same setup except my LCD is a 19 inch and yes SD is so much better


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## Jason Nipp

harsh said:


> I disagree with both of you. You need to shop where you're going to buy. It isn't the display technology that makes for a good SD display, it is the scaling hardware. What looks flawless on a high-end plasma may be intolerable on a low-end plasma with the same resolution.I recommend shopping at some place that can show you what your TV will look like using the source you'll usually be watching. It may or may not cost more, but it will allow you to judge for yourself given the most similar conditions.


 Harsh, what exactly did you just say? I said go somewhere that will let you move displays around so you can compare displays you like and are considering side by side, I didn't say anything about scaling hardware. My 2 flat panels that I used in my example are the same manufacturer, same product series set, and almost identical internal hardware, only the display medium itself is different. Those 2 displays produce different results under certain criteria, i.e. fast action sports, movies, SD, HD, etc. I can put them side by side and run them off the same exact source and can prefer one or the other display type depending on content.



harsh said:


> I personally lust for the 50" Sony Grand Wega SXRD (1080p LCoS, <$3K). It is no flat panel, but the display and the image processing are incredible (and I had sworn off of Sony).


The SXRD is OK, I considered it, recently in fact. BTW it is still classified as a 3 chip LCD, more technically Silicon Crystal Reflective Display. I tested it on several channels I commonly watch, HDNet, TLC, Speed, etc... And I just didn't see a larger enough improvement to swap out my current LCD RP. Now the fact they scale it in a manner that requires no color wheel is really cool, and it is super quiet because it has no wheel, but I think my Hitachi can hold out a while longer. But heck if your in the market, ya, it's nice.

http://products.sel.sony.com/hdtv/tech/main/sxrd_index.html


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## harsh

Jason Nipp said:


> Harsh, what exactly did you just say?


I offered that you should see how the kind of content that you plan on watching (including satellite) looks on the specific unit that you are considering. Shopping for a display technology, scaling system, motion processing system, aperture control system and other features at a specialty store is not doing you any good if you're going to buy a different model with "Oh! I'm pretty sure this unit has that but they don't advertise it to preserve the price point of that other, more expensive model" features at a discount store.


> BTW it is still classified as a 3 chip LCD, more technically Silicon Crystal Reflective Display.


Silicon X-tal Reflective Display is Sony's pet name for their implementation. JVC calls it HD-ILA. SpatiaLight calls it imagEngine. All of them are trade names for 1920x1080 LCoS. By definition, LCoS is light bouncing off of a very tiny mirror backed LCD panel (as opposed to shining through ala DLP).


> Now the fact they scale it in a manner that requires no color wheel is really cool.


Practical LCoS, to my knowledge, has never required/used a color wheel. As indicated in the Sony article, it uses a "color splitter" to optically divide the white projector lamp into continuous red, green and blue beams. This technology is probably also used in 3 chip DLP designs (or maybe a colored filter on the shady side of each LCD panel).

Here's a copy of the Sony press release from three years ago:

http://www.insightmedia.info/news/SonyUpdatesLCOSMicrodisplayTechnology.htm


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## olgeezer

I'm sure Jason understands LCOS as well or better than any of us. Liquid Crystal on Silicone. Many of JVC's products are 720p sets. The Sony SXRD is great and has a lot of positive press (primarily for the 15k Qualia version). The 1080p sets are new and source material is not here yet. In scaling 1080i or 720p source material it may take a 50" set to see even minimal differences over a good 720p set.


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## harsh

olgeezer said:


> Liquid Crystal on Silicone.


That sounds like the stage name of an exotic dancer. The "lifelike" silicone polymer is not used in the construction of semiconductors. Electronic "chips" are built on elemental silicon wafers.

Perhaps silicone chips would be appropriate for wobbulated DLP displays to give them the right kind jiggle.


> Many of JVC's products are 720p sets.


All of the ones claiming D-ILA technology (versus HD-ILA) are. 1080p LCoS devices are though of as "second generation LCoS" just as 1080p DLP is considered second generation for that technology.


> The 1080p sets are new and source material is not here yet.


Even if it were widely available, very few (if any) of the current crop of 1080p consumer display systems are capable of handling 1080p content. This has been a major disappointment to many 1080p consumers.


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## olgeezer

Do you mean like these?

http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?productId=PRD4208500&pathId=114


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## olgeezer

Miss spelled the S word, must of been thinking of Pam

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=LCoS&i=45980,00.asp


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## olgeezer

We had JVC LCOS 720p rear projection for sale in 2001 and Philips LCOS 720p rear projection in our store for sale in 2003-2004. Do you need model numbers?


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## harsh

olgeezer said:


> Do you mean like these?


I could have sworn they differentiated between the 720p models and the 1080p models in the way that I described.

Boy, do I feel like I've been enhanced.


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## Jason Nipp

olgeezer said:


> I'm sure Jason understands LCOS as well or better than any of us. Liquid Crystal on Silicone. Many of JVC's products are 720p sets. The Sony SXRD is great and has a lot of positive press (primarily for the 15k Qualia version). The 1080p sets are new and source material is not here yet. In scaling 1080i or 720p source material it may take a 50" set to see even minimal differences over a good 720p set.


Ah Marty, you know as well as I that's the benefit of working for one of the below mentioned display manufacturers.... way too much marketing/text book knowledge going on here don't you think?  But in the end, the marketing guys always make the development guys look like they aren't trying hard enough....huh? 

BTW Harsh, X-Tal is a electronics acronym for Crystal. 
.
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.


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## Jason Nipp

harsh said:


> 1080p LCoS devices are though of as "second generation LCoS" just as 1080p DLP is considered second generation for that technology.


Actually JVC offers 2 lines of ILA displays, a 720p line and a 1080p line. I even have the full press video of the JVC president discussing the differences in the 2 product lines at CES.

The first generation of the Texas Instruments DLP, prior to the Dark Chip 3 being introduced, were single chip DLP's. This included the Samsung HLW series.

When using the term splitting color..... Oh forget it, not worth getting technical over. 
.
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.


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## speedy882001

Jason Nipp said:


> sikma,
> 
> For instance:
> * How well lit is the room? Any skylights or big windows?
> 
> *Jason


So, what is the best type of TV for rooms with big windows AND skylight?


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## Jason Nipp

speedy882001 said:


> So, what is the best type of TV for rooms with big windows AND skylight?


I would be happier with a CRT tube or Plasma over an LCD/DLP in a well lit room. My Hitachi LCD RP has a day/night mode and the antiglare filter and did well in my great-room. But when I swapped the LCD RP out with to an LCD flat panel the skylights above in my great-room can wash the screen out. I also have a Plasma and tried that in the great-room, and the plasma was definitely nicer than the LCD flat panel in that particular room. As always YMMV.


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## Cholly

I have to agree with Jason on this. Our Sony 55 inch RP LCD receiver is in a 2 story family room with big windows, and definitely washes out during the day. Actually, it looks best when lights are low. 
To get a grasp on the difference made by light levels, visit Best Buy, Circuit City, and WalMart. Best Buy displays their big screens in a darkened area, while Circuit City and WalMart have theirs in normally lighted showrooms. Despite the poor PQ displayed in most Best Buy stores, you still will notice that LCD's look better there than in the well-lighted stores.


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## Paul Secic

dr928gt said:


> I have a 32 LCD and 2 Plasmas (46 and 50) and hands down the LCD looks tons better on SD and it is not just because it is a larger screen on the plasmas as I can stand 2 feet from my 32 LCD and the difference it dramatic. Ironicaly the 32 LCD was only $900, don't wanna even think about the cost of the 2 plasmas.


Thanks for the tip. I'm planning to buy a 42" LCD HDTV around Sept. if things go my way. I want to mount it on the wall with those swing away stand. Does anyone know where I can buy that?


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## Paul Secic

Jason Nipp said:


> Ah Marty, you know as well as I that's the benefit of working for one of the below mentioned display manufacturers.... way too much marketing/text book knowledge going on here don't you think?  But in the end, the marketing guys always make the development guys look like they aren't trying hard enough....huh?
> 
> BTW Harsh, X-Tal is a electronics acronym for Crystal.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .


It's mumbo jumbo to me. The average joe won't take time to learn this.


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## Cholly

Paul Secic said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'm planning to buy a 42" LCD HDTV around Sept. if things go my way. I want to mount it on the wall with those swing away stand. Does anyone know where I can buy that?


Paul: Circuit City and Best Buy both carry Omnimount cantelevr mounts, but they are very expensive -- $499 for one that will handle a 42 inch plasma or LCD TV. Fixed wall mounts are much cheaper -- typically $150 to $200. You can get basic floor stands for a lot less, which is why a lot of people go that route.


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## Nick

Why spend a lot of money on a swing-arm mount you'll probably never use? 
Just mount it with two heavy-duty wall fasteners - 99 cents.


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## Paul Secic

Nick said:


> Why spend a lot of money on a swing-arm mount you'll probably never use?
> Just mount it with two heavy-duty wall fasteners - 99 cents.


You're probably right. I'm in a wheelchair and can't do anything. I use the computer with a head stick.

http://www.cpcoak.org/netlife.html


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## Jason Nipp

Cholly said:


> Paul: Circuit City and Best Buy both carry Omnimount cantelevr mounts, but they are very expensive -- $499 for one that will handle a 42 inch plasma or LCD TV. Fixed wall mounts are much cheaper -- typically $150 to $200. You can get basic floor stands for a lot less, which is why a lot of people go that route.


The swing mount I have in my MBR cost about $79.00 and the non swing mount I have in the Greatroom cost me about $99. Both were made by Sanus I believe. Skywalker has some lower cost models that are nice.


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## lastmanstanding

sikma said:


> I've asked this question on another site but didn't get much of a response. I will be buying my first 42" flat-panel HDTV soon. My question is, because HD is obviously slow in coming via satellite, I want to buy which ever tv looks better in standard definition. Plasma vs LCD. Any comments would be appreciated.


LCD is the wave of the future. Less burn in, better black levels. 1080p is costly but you will be set for a decade.

An alternative would be to go cheap, do ED plasma in your screen size with the intention of scrapping in in 3 years or so when HD really gets going.

ED will give you 100% of what you can get from regular DVDs and SD TV, and they really are pretty cheap and getting cheaper.

An LCD 1080p is pretty costly even though it is the best right now. Bluray DVD players give a native 1080p output, but there are like 5 titles available right now.

So for best bang for the buck for SD, ED plasma to give to the kids in 3-4 years when the real gear is available.

LMS


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## harsh

lastmanstanding said:


> LCD is the wave of the future. Less burn in, better black levels.


LCD will always have the screendoor effect drawback that doesn't afflict DLP or LCoS. For that reason, it will remain an alternative.


> An LCD 1080p is pretty costly even though it is the best right now.


Some 1080p units aren't as good looking as 1080i units. A lot of the modern HD technology lies in the image processing hardware.


> Bluray DVD players give a native 1080p output, but there are like 5 titles available right now.


I wasn't able to find any that are actually shipping. Sony's eight releases were recently delayed until June 20th. Of those releases, one one or two of them appeal to me. I can't imagine who picked the titles.


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## Nick

As far as I'm concerned, "ED" lives _'up'_ to its name -- *E*rectile *D*ysfunction.

I would not waste my money on any resolution that isn't 'up' to *H*igh-*D*efinition!


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## Cholly

harsh said:


> LCD will always have the screendoor effect drawback that doesn't afflict DLP or LCoS.


that may well be true, but it isn't really very noticeable on most current LCD's such as my Sony KDFE55A20. Wheter you notice SDE or not depends to a large extent on whether the receiver upconverts SD to its native resolution and to viewing distance and ambient light. Granted, some of the cheaper LCD's still on the market have a pronounced SDE.


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## lastmanstanding

harsh said:


> LCD will always have the screendoor effect drawback that doesn't afflict DLP or LCoS. Of those releases, one one or two of them appeal to me. I can't imagine who picked the titles.


Heh. Remember when CDs were first coming out? Man, the choices for the early titles were just plain weird. Looks like the same crew is making the picks for the new DVDs.

LCoS visually has some real advantages, but almost all the press goes to LCD and DLP. I read somewhere that the LCoS chips have a significant hand assembly issue, some someone sits there with a microscope and a probe to push them together. That will keep costs up.

Good point on the chipsets behind the displays. Even the DVD player can make a big difference.

In the end we just have to look at the darn thing and make a choice. My thought is that fewer dollars spent now makes it easier to chuck the thing when better choices come along in 2-3 years. That may not be long enough the way MPEG 4 is creeping out.

With the highly questionable broadcasts that pass as HD these days, I can't get too excited. As long as my coal fired gear keeps working and I can stand the smoke, I'm waiting.

ED is generally cheap and a better set risks showing just how bad the upconversions are. Heh.

By the time it all gets hammered out, they'll be offering 2160p.

LMS


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## lastmanstanding

Jason Nipp said:


> I would be happier with a CRT tube or Plasma over an LCD/DLP in a well lit room. My Hitachi LCD RP has a day/night mode and the antiglare filter and did well in my great-room. But when I swapped the LCD RP out with to an LCD flat panel the skylights above in my great-room can wash the screen out. I also have a Plasma and tried that in the great-room, and the plasma was definitely nicer than the LCD flat panel in that particular room. As always YMMV.


I've noticed less screen glare with the rear projectors vs plasma, LCD. The newer DLPs have enough brightness these days to stand a lot of light. The tech keeps changing, choices are tougher. Right now I'm looking to avoid side glare, brightness and contrast are lesser issues. DLP LCoS are looking better.

Nothing does well with direct sunlight hitting the screen. A little light control goes a long way.

LMS


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## Hound

Plasma is better. I have a 61" Plasma in my family room with ceiling skylights and
floor to ceilling windows. I have 23" LCD in my adjoining kitchen. Both screens are visible from the kitchen (can watch two shows at once). Plasma is watchable
from all angles during the day even at midday when the sun streams through the
skylights.


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