# No excuse



## irmolars (Mar 12, 2006)

There is no excuse for this piece of junk R-15 to be on the market.
I was watching T.V. all of a sudden black screen on all channels.
Had to do the dreaded reset, gonna wear that button out.
I know Earl likes to argue with me about the R-15.
But it is a piece of junk that will never work properly!!!!


----------



## lmurphy (Jul 26, 2004)

I have both the R15 & HR10-250 and I really like the R15 alot more than I thought I would.


----------



## BigApe (May 12, 2006)

*I'm sorry you are have so much trouble. I realize how frustrating it can be.

I've got a R15 and I love it. Yes, there are a few bugs (although, I have not had the display black out) but nothing I can't live with for now.

My wish is to get the latest software upgrade. 

Joe*


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I don't like to argue..
I just like pointing out the other side.

It is your right to feel how ever you want to feel regarding the unit.


----------



## Sammy2368 (Jul 12, 2006)

I have had my issues with it as well. I've been with DirecTV for only two months, and I'm not too impressed with the R15.


----------



## Larry Daughtrey (Feb 14, 2006)

Be careful what you wish for! In my opinion, this newest software release has caused more problems than it cured. On both of my R-15's


----------



## BigApe (May 12, 2006)

Larry Daughtrey said:


> Be careful what you wish for! In my opinion, this newest software release has caused more problems than it cured. On both of my R-15's


Isn't it (the latest software version) supposed to fix the five minute rule for switching channels before recording?


----------



## Larry Daughtrey (Feb 14, 2006)

Yes it did fix the 5 minute rule which is great, BUT at the cost of repeated lockups and very unpredictable behavior. Hell, my status bar doesnt even work half the time so you dont know how far into a show your at, etc, etc.


----------



## irmolars (Mar 12, 2006)

Evidently everybody is happy with a DVR that you have to constantly babysit, reset and hope that it records.
I personally don't like that.
Had a UTV before had not one problem for over six years.
And its last update was in 2003.
I think the days of the R-15 are numbered.


----------



## captain kirk (May 22, 2006)

It struck me that this debate is similar in nature to that waged 10 years ago between Microsoft Windows and Apple OS supporters. Like most analagies it breaks down some but there are plenty of similarities.

1. A relatively bug free and easy to use product with strong supporters
2. A relatively buggy product with similar features but supported by the distribution company (IBM/Microsoft)
3. The apple folks couldn't (and still can't) believe that people prefer Microsoft Windows to Apple. Why live with a product that has so many flaws when you have one that is much easier to use and much more stable?

IMO, most people would rather stick with what they have and become accustomed too rather than go away from the recomendations of the suppliers (IBM/Directv). People develop blind spots to products for various psychological reasons and valid ones too.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out there for consideration. Just because a product is better doesn't mean that the people using the other product will acknowledge it. The hope that all the bugs will be fixed eventually comes to pass but much longer than anticipated. IMO again, I think Tivo will die because you usually can't just win on a better product. DirectTV will go with their products perhaps jumping to an all new platform from a Tivo like company. Maybe they'll lose their customer base for completely different reasons and competition (fiber to the home). For me I will be with whichever company has NFL ticket!


----------



## BigApe (May 12, 2006)

*


Larry Daughtrey said:



Yes it did fix the 5 minute rule which is great, BUT at the cost of repeated lockups and very unpredictable behavior. Hell, my status bar doesnt even work half the time so you dont know how far into a show your at, etc, etc.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm. Makes me wish there was a way to turn OFF auto updates. :grin: *


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

captain kirk said:


> It struck me that this debate is similar in nature to that waged 10 years ago between Microsoft Windows and Apple OS supporters. Like most analagies it breaks down some but there are plenty of similarities.
> 
> 1. A relatively bug free and easy to use product with strong supporters
> 2. A relatively buggy product with similar features but supported by the distribution company (IBM/Microsoft)
> ...


The thing with the apple/windows analogy is that it's a bit different. Yeah apple makes a better product. They have a great, dedicated following. The problem is the cost. I can get a fully loaded windows machine for a couple hundred bucks. I priced out the mac when I was looking to replace my Dell, and I just couldn't see shelling out that much money. It wasn't worth that much more to me.

It's not just a matter of what's better. It's a matter of what people are willing to pay for. For example, when VHS was going up against Beta, Beta was clearly the better product, and Sony was betting that people were willing to go down that road. The problem was the cost. It wasn't worth the extra money to people. Personally, I stick with D* because, well, I really like them. I've never had any issues dealing with them. I really like their service, and I like the R15.


----------



## sjniedz (Feb 11, 2006)

It kind of scares me to think what is coming down the road. If D* can't fix this unit in 9 months of release, can reasonable people expect this to ever work? I have had a HD TV sitting idle for a year now waiting for the new HD DVR to come out. Now that it is nearly here, I honestly don't know what to do. I am so fed up with the R-15 that I don't know why I would want to go through the same thing with the HD version. You know it can't be any better than this. Does anyone reading this have a HD DVR from Dish and if so, are you happy? Dish already has HD in my area while I am STILL waiting for D* to service Rhode Island. I have already moved past anger with D* and have entered into a hard core depression. :nono2:


----------



## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

jpl said:


> The thing with the apple/windows analogy is that it's a bit different. Yeah apple makes a better product.


Mac/Windows is completely different.

First Apple does not make a better product. Apple makes a different product. (Also the Mac/Windows debate is confounded because Mac is an operating system and dedicated hardware, while Windows is an operating system designed to be portable on multiple hardware platforms.)

Mac is better than Windows at some things. And Windows is better than Mac at other things.

Interestingly, both Apple and Microsoft recognize the weaknesses of their products versus the other, and they are adding things to make the products more similar.

But both Mac and Windows have essentially done what they promised to do, i.e., allow you to run selected productivity software on selected hardware.

The problem with the R15 is that it hasn't done the things that it promised to do --- specifically "Automatically record every episode of your favorite shows".


----------



## klwillis (Apr 11, 2006)

Yet another site with Geek speak.
Hey doesn't this belong somewhere else on the INTERNET?

(J/K)

Keith


Upstream said:


> Mac/Windows is completely different.
> 
> First Apple does not make a better product. Apple makes a different product. (Also the Mac/Windows debate is confounded because Mac is an operating system and dedicated hardware, while Windows is an operating system designed to be portable on multiple hardware platforms.)
> 
> ...


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Upstream said:


> Mac/Windows is completely different.
> 
> First Apple does not make a better product. Apple makes a different product. (Also the Mac/Windows debate is confounded because Mac is an operating system and dedicated hardware, while Windows is an operating system designed to be portable on multiple hardware platforms.)
> 
> ...


Didn't mean to strike that hard of a chord here. That statement is just my opinion. I think the mac is an overall more cohesive, more user-friendly, and more consistant product (don't get me wrong, I love my Dell, but in my opinion I think the mac is a bit better). Anyway, my point wasn't to pick a fight between apple and pc users. I was simply countering that having a better product isn't always enough. Better products generally come at a bigger price tag. All I was pointing out was that people will balance price and quality when shopping. Whether you're talking about computers, or dishwashers, or cars, or DVRs, people will look at the features of different units, and compare price tags ("I really like heated seats, but is it really worth the extra $2000?") before making a decision. It's a question of what people will settle for.

As an aside, I got into the same discussion here at work with a devoted mac user. I mentioned that "I really like the new Macs, but I can't see shelling out THAT much money..." Actually, come to think of it, I didn't get into the discussion with him - he overheard a conversation I had with someone else, and felt impassioned enough to jump in with barrels blazing. His response was "Macs aren't that expensive." Also, to put it in a bit of perspective, and not to get too off-topic, my old pc was running Windows 98, which is the biggest hunk of garbage I ever used as an o/s. My reluctance with going with another windows-based machine had more to do with windows than with the machine itself. Fortunately I think XP is a much better product than 98.


----------



## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

jpl -- My point was that the difference between Mac and Windows is a difference in features and design, not necessarily which is better or worse. Both Mac and Windows do what they are expected to do.

The problem with the R15 isn't that it is different than Tivo. The problem is that it doesn't do what it is expected to do.

The solution isn't to incorporate additional features at higher cost. The solution is to fix the functionality that doesn't work.


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Upstream said:


> jpl -- My point was that the difference between Mac and Windows is a difference in features and design, not necessarily which is better or worse. Both Mac and Windows do what they are expected to do.
> 
> The problem with the R15 isn't that it is different than Tivo. The problem is that it doesn't do what it is expected to do.
> 
> The solution isn't to incorporate additional features at higher cost. The solution is to fix the functionality that doesn't work.


I think you missed my point. I never said that D* should plunk more features into the R15, and that a higher price tag will make it a more quality product. I really wasn't talking about the R15 at all. I was responding to the statement, to the effect: people will stay with a product rather than move to something different/better because of what they're accustomed to, and that's why some products don't take off. My response to that was simply: that isn't quite correct - when it comes to picking a product, consumers will weigh features with cost to make their decision.

I wasn't relating anything to the quality (or problems) with the R15. I was simply saying that consumers many times will pick a product because of the cost/quality equation - they don't necessarily hold off on purchasing a product because they're unfamiliar with it. There's more to it than that. Most people don't shy away from the mac because it's different than the pc - they factor in the price as well as the features that are available.

I also agree that quality is very subjective. The features are really in the eyes of the beholder. I like the mac better - but I have very different criteria than someone else might. But it wasn't worth the extra money to me. I included that example, not to talk about the quality of the R15, but to simply point out, through a personal experience, how price comes into the equation when making a purchase (it's the same reason I didn't get the iPod when looking for an mp3 player).

I never meant to imply that the R15 is just different than TiVo, (I never said that the problem with the R15 is that it's different than TiVo) or even that TiVo is a better product than the R15 because of cost. I was just trying to point out that buying decisions, in general, aren't just governed by what people are used to using. I also agree that D* needs to fix the bugs in the R15, or they will lose customers. It needs to work as designed, and do so consistantly, or people will leave. I was responding to a point that really had nothing to do with the R15 at all.


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

BTW, the issue of criteria really follows into the discussion of D* in general, and the R15 specifically. I like D* because I think they're a good value - I get alot for my money, I think the PQ is awesome, and I've never had any real issues either with the company or the service. As a comparison, in my area, folks are shelling out the same money for basic cable, and they get half as many channels, all in analog, and they have to deal with the wonder that is Comcast.

As for the R15, I really like it too. I've had some minor nits - but they're minor to me, again, because of my criteria. For example, would I like to have the caller ID working correctly? Sure. Is it a show-stopper for me? No - actually it's not that critical of a feature for me. For someone else, that may be a real bone of contention. I also saw the bug with hitting skip back while playing back a show that's currently being recorded, and I saw the problem with the VOD list not showing up when you enter a zip and state for weather and lottery numbers in the Active screen.

Again, those are nits. Should they be working correctly. Absolutely. Are they show-stoppers for me? No. I haven't had any issues with it not recording shows. It's doing pretty much what I expected it to. But again, it's in the eye of the customer. About my biggest complaint is that it's not handling the first runs on the SL correctly.

But again, I'm not a power user by any stretch of the imagination (I only have a handful of SLs set up - maybe 9, and I've never set up an autorecord, and I really have no desire to). If there's something really critical that I want it to record, I'll make sure that it's on my to do list (I did that with my TiVo as well). I would also like to see some other features baked in. Mostly I'm looking for it to pause/rewind live tv, and to record shows that I care about. My basic criteria are being met, and I think the PQ is excellent to boot.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Upstream said:


> jpl -- My point was that the difference between Mac and Windows is a difference in features and design, not necessarily which is better or worse. Both Mac and Windows do what they are expected to do.
> 
> The problem with the R15 isn't that it is different than Tivo. The problem is that it doesn't do what it is expected to do.
> 
> The solution isn't to incorporate additional features at higher cost. The solution is to fix the functionality that doesn't work.


So Windows crashing and being patched 1-2 times a week is expected? :lol:

I am a Windows user and also a coder/admin so I depend on Windows and Unix to keep me employeed so I love it. Never used a Mac more because I thought they where overpriced then anything else.


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> So Windows crashing and being patched 1-2 times a week is expected? :lol:
> 
> I am a Windows user and also a coder/admin so I depend on Windows and Unix to keep me employeed so I love it. Never used a Mac more because I thought they where overpriced then anything else.


I wasn't going to say anything about that blue screen of death  I was starting to think that was a feature (someone had the reco of making that a screen saver)... actually, in all fairness, I think XP is much better at that than 98 ever was.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

jpl said:


> I wasn't going to say anything about that blue screen of death  I was starting to think that was a feature (someone had the reco of making that a screen saver)... actually, in all fairness, I think XP is much better at that than 98 ever was.


I agree XP is a huge improvement over all previous versions. It's far more stable. Vista I am so far not too happy with though. Could be just because it's so much different. I guess it goes Hand in Hand with the DVR's it changes that much from what you have had for so long and it's hard to deal with.


----------



## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

jpl said:


> Didn't mean to strike that hard of a chord here. That statement is just my opinion.


Why does everyone feel the need to say that?

Of course it's your opinion. An opinion can still be wrong, and regardless of the presence or absense of objective right/wrongness with imprecise language like 'better', if you state your opinion on a public forum, you're going to get conflicting opinons. Why act like it's a suprise?


----------



## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

jpl said:


> It's not just a matter of what's better. It's a matter of what people are willing to pay for. For example, when VHS was going up against Beta, Beta was clearly the better product, and Sony was betting that people were willing to go down that road. The problem was the cost. It wasn't worth the extra money to people. Personally, I stick with D* because, well, I really like them. I've never had any issues dealing with them. I really like their service, and I like the R15.


I think this was the issue with UTV and Tivo. If I remember the UTV was way more than the Tivo so people where buying Tivo because it was cheaper. I think if the price point had been the other way there would have been more UTV's then Tivo's.


----------



## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I think this was the issue with UTV and Tivo. If I remember the UTV was way more than the Tivo so people where buying Tivo because it was cheaper. I think if the price point had been the other way there would have been more UTV's then Tivo's.


I just realized we never hear any mention of ReplayTV in these threads...didn't they INVENT the consumer DVR appliance? Why did they lose so thoroughly? Their price point was not dramatically different from Tivo when Tivo first came out, IIRC.


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

ApK said:


> Why does everyone feel the need to say that?
> 
> Of course it's your opinion. An opinion can still be wrong, and regardless of the presence or absense of objective right/wrongness with imprecise language like 'better', if you state your opinion on a public forum, you're going to get conflicting opinons. Why act like it's a suprise?


Actually, I'm not surprised nor offended when people counter an opinion of mine. I wasn't trying to insulate my statement from criticism by stating that it was my opinion (as in "how dare you criticize what I said... it's just my opinion"). What surprised me about the reaction is that my posting really had NOTHING to do with the mac or the pc - the discussion of what's better, mac or windows, really wasn't the point of my posting. It was just used to illustrate a point about cost vs. features, and how people make decisions to purchase a product. That's all. I could have used another personal experience about the stove my wife and I purchased last year, but since the original poster mentioned the mac vs. windows, I used that example instead. Which is why I was a little surprised that my comment generated the reaction it did. I put that "it's just my opinion" statement in my follow-up posting to defuse the situation. I didn't want my original comment to devolve into a debate over which computer is better. I just wanted to let folks know that I wasn't trying to pick a fight between users of each system. Which is why I expounded on the fact that features/quality are really in the eye of the consumer. Depends on what they're looking for in a product.

As for criticism... go right ahead. Fire away. I don't take umbrage at criticisms. And if I took them personally, well, I should look for a new line of work...


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

And when you say "of course it's your opinion"... well, apparently it wasn't all that obvious. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten the reaction that I did... I probably would have gotten a response to the effect "well, that's your opinion."


----------



## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

jpl said:


> And when you say "of course it's your opinion"... well, apparently it wasn't all that obvious. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten the reaction that I did... I probably would have gotten a response to the effect "well, that's your opinion."


I hope not! What a boring forum it would be then.

Anyway, you said "Yeah apple makes a better product."
It's obviously your opinion and you were bound and certain to get people telling their opinions on why your opinion was wrong. And probably some agreeing.

If you didn't want to spark debate you could have said it differently or not at all. Even if it was supposed to be an anology, you were bound to get posts pointing out reasons why the the analogy is good or bad or why it supports one side of the argument rather than the other.

We've now added at least THREE new waste-of-bandwidth messages to my one waste-of-bandwidth messge which said only that I think all "Geesh, it's just my opinion" messages are a waste of bandwidth.


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

ApK said:


> I hope not! What a boring forum it would be then.
> 
> Anyway, you said "Yeah apple makes a better product."
> It's obviously your opinion and you were bound and certain to get people telling their opinions on why your opinion was wrong. And probably some agreeing.
> ...


True enough. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers... You should hear me get into political discussions


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ApK said:


> I just realized we never hear any mention of ReplayTV in these threads...didn't they INVENT the consumer DVR appliance? Why did they lose so thoroughly? Their price point was not dramatically different from Tivo when Tivo first came out, IIRC.


There are conflicting opinions on who came up with the DVR. I am not taking either side. Replay died because they came up with commercail skipping and got sued into submission. They are still around and now owned by Denon, they actually are just releasing the ReplayTV software for use on your home PC. I am going to check it out and have my name on the list for the day it's released. I bought a ReplayTV and actually liked it but all I can say is you think the R15 isn't stable go try one of the early 5000 Series ReplayTVs.


----------



## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> There are conflicting opinions on who came up with the DVR. I am not taking either side. Replay died because they came up with commercail skipping and got sued into submission. They are still around and now owned by Denon, they actually are just releasing the ReplayTV software for use on your home PC. I am going to check it out and have my name on the list for the day it's released. I bought a ReplayTV and actually liked it but all I can say is you think the R15 isn't stable go try one of the early 5000 Series ReplayTVs.


Was ReplayTV the first DVR that was on the market (regardless if they where the first to "invent" it)?


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Was ReplayTV the first DVR that was on the market (regardless if they where the first to "invent" it)?


Thats also a sticky point Tivo and them claim it and both say they shipped before the other. The part is what does shipped actually mean, high volume, low volume, my neighbor now has one. They are both with a very short amount of time of each other.


----------



## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Shipped means "when does a customer get a production unit?" TiVo beat Replay by 1-2 months.


----------

