# Your thoughts on Picture-in-Picture?



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

There have been about half a dozen recent posts in the *Wish List* thread by folks who would like to see Picture-in-Picture (PIP) capability added to the HR2x platform. I'm not sure if it's technically possible to do so through a software upgrade, and I'm even less sure how it might be implemented, since the stock DirecTV remotes have no PIP buttons. That said, assuming neither of these hurdles are insurmountable, I'd like to get a sense of how popular a feature PIP might be if it was currently available.

Thanks in advance for your votes and comments. If you voted "other", please begin your post with "I voted other...", to make it easier to decipher the results.  /steve


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

I wouldn't mind having P-P capability, but would rather have DLB. Possibly if P-P was added, both feeds would be buffered and one could alternate b/w them and we'd get both features?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I have had PIP in my TVs for 10 years or so and use it at most once a year.


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## genemc (May 5, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have had PIP in my TVs for 10 years or so and use it at most once a year.


I agree, when PIP first became available I stepped up a model or two when I bought a TV just to get it. Like you, I found that I never used it. The only use I can think of would be watching two different football games but games I would watch aren't usually opposite each other.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

I would use PIP pretty often... Maybe not daily, but definitely weekly..


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

It's not even confirmed that this is possible with the decoding and display hardware in the the HR2x (both, not one or the other). However, if it were, I'd use it for NFL ST all the time.


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## Monster (Nov 7, 2008)

For the NFL!


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

I use PIP on my TV almost every week, I put directv on screen and PIP in my local news channel.

I'm not sure I see a need for it on an HR-2x


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I have two HR21's connected to my living room display. My former TV had PIP and I used it all the time. My new HDTV doesn't have PIP and I miss it.


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## sshams95 (Sep 2, 2006)

When I was using Ultimate TV, I used PIP daily for watching football, hockey, following different news channels. I loved using it while watching the news and having the PIP screen for any sport event where I didn't care to listen to audio.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

I'm with Stuart on this one. When I had PIP I rarely used it. Dish had it on the 721 reciever. The only time I used it was when I was showing someone else the capabilites of the box. I get upset when local channels insert their pop-ups all over the place, and I'm relatively certain I wouldn't want to impose my own pop-ups as well.


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## dhhaines (Nov 18, 2005)

I've had PIP on all the TV's I've purchased in the last 10 or so years and only used it once. Found it a useless gadget.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

The CRT that was retired had PIP and I might have used it a time or two, I certainly don't miss it. If they were to enable a second decoder it might be better used for another TV/monitor.


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## cadet502 (Jun 17, 2005)

I voted "I might use PIP weekly", but the truth is "I *would* use PIP weekly from September thru November". My Sony does a side by side, which I use with two HR2x's, and I use this every week when NFL and NASCAR overlap. PIP and swap would be preferred IF the PIP screen was adjustable from both size and location (my Mits CRT does this well) 
A well designed PIP might get even more use to keep tabs on a second show if I didn't have to sacrifice 40% of my picture size like I do with side by side.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

I'm not a big sports fan (mostly just college football), so I hardly ever used it for that when I had it on my UTV's. If I had it, I might use it, but it's definitely not a must have. I'd rather see DLB, MRV, and UI tweaks and a lot more stability and speed before even thinking about asking for PIP.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

davring said:


> The CRT that was retired had PIP and I might have used it a time or two, I certainly don't miss it. If they were to enable a second decoder it might be better used for another TV/monitor.


Actually, it might not require a second hardware-based decoder, since they already apparently have downsampling capability built-in to the current graphics subsystem to display PIG/PIL images.

Another possibility is to create a PIP subchannel during the MPEG-2/4 encoding process that gets transmitted along with the main channel. Similar to digital still cameras that offer the option to save a 640x480 "e-mail" version of an image along with the full-res image. I know for a fact the Tandberg MPEG encoder that DirecTV uses has that capability (simultaneous encoding of both a high- and low-res version of the same input stream). It would probably consume a very small add'l amount of satellite bandwidth and disk space, if recorded.

The real issue as I see it would be how to intuitively control PIP with the existing DirecTV remote, since there are no dedicated buttons. I imagine any PIP options would need to be listed under the YELLOW button.

/steve


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I would rarley use PIP... However, I'd love to have POP....


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Having the Picture in Guide/List I feel is great, as opposed to TiVo where you entered just about any function and completely lost what you were viewing.

PIP - I can't see that I'd ever use it. I voted I'd never use it because I couldn't even see myself using it a few times a year.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I would rarley use PIP... However, I'd love to have POP....


By POP, do you mean split screen or some form of side-by-side? /steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

JLucPicard said:


> Having the Picture in Guide/List I feel is great, as opposed to TiVo where you entered just about any function and completely lost what you were viewing.


Different strokes..., I guess. :lol: I hate PIG/PIL with a passion, due to the potential to "spoil" a show ending or sports score! I so wish the HR2x offered the option to disable it. /steve


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## Mavrick (Feb 1, 2006)

Would love it for if we got PIP we would probably also get DLB  for if your using the PIP it would have to be buffering 2 channels!


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Steve said:


> Actually, it might not require a second hardware-based decoder, since they already apparently have downsampling capability built-in to the current graphics subsystem to display PIG/PIL images.


But it still has to be decoded before it can be downsampled. I just don't see how this could be possible without two decoders.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

I would use it weekly during the NFL. For now I use the game mix channel during commercial breaks.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

I would use it Sunday's during football season.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

PIP is outstanding for watching sports. On NFL Sunday it's great when you want to keep your eye on a couple of games. During baseball season it's nice to keep an eye on the game in a small window even though it's too boring to watch full time.

I had an RCA UltimateTV DVR with DIRECTV and it had PIP, as did the HD DVR that I had with Dish Network for a couple of years. Being able to see what's going on on a couple of channels, and being able to press the "Swap" button to flip between the two, is the BOMB!

And having PIP on your sat receiver is way better than having PIP on your TV - you don't have to run two inputs into to your TV and sound system and you don't have to go through all kinds of gyrations to switch between the windows.

Get with it DIRECTV!


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Steve said:


> I'm posting this poll in the General Discussion forum because it is not a DVR-specific feature request.


How is it not DVR-specific? How is a standard receiver going to do PIP with a single satellite tuner?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> How is it not DVR-specific? How is a standard receiver going to do PIP with a single satellite tuner?


Good point. I didn't think it through, especially since there's no AUX video input on a standard receiver either. I should have said not HR2x-specific, since the topic came up on the HR2x Wish List thread. /steve


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

PIP = Worthless feature to me. Paid extra on my first TV back 15 years ago for PIP. Used it just a few times and found it worthless. Never used it since, even though I can with multiple receivers on multiple TV inputs and I have Sunday Ticket even. Not to say others wouldn't use it, I just wouldn't.


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## cweave02 (Oct 12, 2007)

I would use it to watch 2 college football games at the same time instead of flipping back in forth. Wish it could be a true split screen though, instead of the little PIP in the corner.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Will with 123 votes in, it looks like at least half the respondents would use PIP at least weekly, so I should probably formulate a new Wish List request. Under the "new features" section, perhaps something as simple as this?

*Picture-in-Picture / Picture-by-Picture capability.
*
/steve


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

My Vizio has a true split screen, they call it POP for Picture on Picture.

Since my downstairs PC is also connected to my PC, I POP whatever my wife is watching side by side with my PC display. Works great.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

leww37334 said:


> My Vizio has a true split screen, they call it POP for Picture on Picture.


I did some Googling for PIP and POP acronyms, and according to this, commonly used terms are PIP and PAP/P&P, with PAP more commonly referred to as PBP, for Picture-by-picture.

I worded the request based on this, but I'm open to suggestions.

/steve


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

I've had PiP capabilities for years and while I have played with it...I've found little to no use for the technology even on very large screens.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I think the dvr took away the necessity of PIP. I never used it when it was available, but I do not watch sports.


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## rustynails (Apr 24, 2008)

bonscott87 said:


> PIP = Worthless feature to me. Paid extra on my first TV back 15 years ago for PIP. Used it just a few times and found it worthless. Never used it since, even though I can with multiple receivers on multiple TV inputs and I have Sunday Ticket even. Not to say others wouldn't use it, I just wouldn't.


I had a Sony tv that I had pip on and hardly ever used it. When I got my HDTV and a vip 722, I used it all of the time. It is a great feature for keeping tabs on 2 programs and switching easily between the two. I would consider it a must have along with dlb. I really do miss that dvr!


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I have this and I only watch the one unless I am running a computer program that I want to keep an eye on or want to play a game while a movie is on. Would you call this picture outside a picture, or POP? :lol:


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

armophob said:


> I have this and I only watch the one unless I am running a computer program that I want to keep an eye on or want to play a game while a movie is on. Would you call this picture outside a picture, or POP? :lol:


Now that's what I call a solution! Maybe this should be our Wish List request?

*Provide a complimentary POP display panel to all loyal HR2x users.
*
Works for me! /steve

PS: All kidding aside, my son and both sisters got free 19" Sharp 16:9 LCD TV's when they signed up for Verizon FiOS TV last year.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Steve said:


> Now that's what I call a solution! Maybe this should be our Wish List request?
> 
> *Provide a complimentary POP display panel to all loyal HR2x users.
> *
> ...


P.S. It's good to be single


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

YES, I would use it daily to watch sports. Being able to actually see 2 games at once is much better then having to switch between the two.

A lot of new TV's don't have PIP built in anymore, and some of us can't afford to buy another TV to put next to our current TV's, so yes, PIP would be great.

They could use the color or arrow buttons to activate the feature, or put it on the TV options menu after pressing the yellow button.

From whats been reported on here, the Broadcom chips can support it.

If cable and E* can have it, why can't we?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Voted other because I would probably not use it on the DVR itself. I have PIP with my TV and have access in the second screen for my HD Tivo and my two DirecTV DVRs. The only things I do not have in the second window is my Blu Ray and my Roku.


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

would use it everday....show goes to commercial, put it in pip, switch around, go back to it when its back from commercial because i can now see it with the pip.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

dcowboy7 said:


> would use it everday....show goes to commercial, put it in pip, switch around, go back to it when its back from commercial because i can now see it with the pip.


When a show goes to commercial, I just skip the commercials.


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## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

Honestly, I have never had PiP capability (and you do not miss what you never had) so I have to approach this with an open mind.

Would I use it? Probably.

How often? I really do not know, I normally like to concentrate on a show and do not like having to shift my focus (especially during the interesting parts). I just FF through the commercials.

I'm not into sports, so that is out. (I never even watch the current mix channels).

As for the hardware feasibility, this was discussed in another thread. The final consensus was that the hardware could not support it.

(Then again, the decoding hardware cannot decode 1080p either but they got that to work using the On Demand selections. So I'll just wait and see.)

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=143866


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## redram38 (Dec 7, 2005)

I use it all the time, but only for watching sports, or playing the Wii while watching either a program w/the sound on, or Sports event with sound either off or on.
My Vizio 32 has it but you have to use it on a diff source other than the one you are watching on. Watching HDMI, it can only do PIP on the Component, A/V or TV settings.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Things I've used it for in the past other than 2 sporting events:

1. Kids show on main screen (Dora, etc.), sporting event on in the PIP window to keep an eye on a game.
2. When we have company I used to put a sporting event on the main screen and music channel on in the PIP window. Then I'd use the music channel's audio via the sound system.
3. Watch a show (live or recorded) and have the weather channel on in the PIP window during severe weather.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Steve said:


> By POP, do you mean split screen or some form of side-by-side? /steve


Yes, I am talking about a split screen... POP or Picture outside of Picture... and it would be nice if it was also scaleable, i.e. One side can be bigger than the other... If they really wanted to go nuts, they could try and set it up so that you could have one large picture on one side, and two smaller ones on top of each other on the other... they coul dhave a combination of live feeds (up to 2) and playback of recordings... Yeah.. I know thats asking for two much.. but hey.. I'm almost looking at it like being able to create your own mix channel, with up to two live feeds and the rest be stuff you have recorded.. I mean if where here to dream... Why not dream big, eh? 



Steve said:


> Different strokes..., I guess. :lol: I hate PIG/PIL with a passion, due to the potential to "spoil" a show ending or sports score! I so wish the HR2x offered the option to disable it. /steve


I absolutly love that feature, however, I don't think it should ever show a live feed from a tuner if you recording something on that tuner.. That would take care of everyones concerns over that feature, I believe... Maybe we need to make that a wish list item.....



Mavrick said:


> Would love it for if we got PIP we would probably also get DLB  for if your using the PIP it would have to be buffering 2 channels!


Actually, PIP would not neccessarily guarantee dlb.. it could be implemented with out buffering one of the channels, probably the small pic.. Not that they would, but they could...



armophob said:


> I think the dvr took away the necessity of PIP. I never used it when it was available, but I do not watch sports.


Its all about sports, or watching a tv program and sports at the same time... I really can't see using it for anything else, unless you like to see the crawl of a news channel in tiny print or something.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

dhhaines said:


> I've had PIP on all the TV's I've purchased in the last 10 or so years and only used it once. Found it a useless gadget.


Pretty much sums it up for me as well.


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## gcvt (Feb 28, 2007)

I could also see it coming in handy for sports, but it really doesn't matter to me very much.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

WHen I had PIP from Comcrap I used it at least once a day. I especially miss it during baseball and football season.

Personally, I'd rather have DLB versus PIP, but having both would be even better.


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

I'd probably only use it for those Sundays when a Sprint Cup race was on at the same time the Eagles were playing. so I'd use it less than once a month.


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

How about having the Red Zone Channel in one window and the game that you are most interested in in the other window? Pretty sweet huh?


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## Getteau (Dec 20, 2007)

I had it on my 46" TV and maybe used it 2x in the past 7 years. I'm not sure my 65" even supports it (I just dug the remote out of the junk box and I don't see a PIP button).

So my vote was for never use it.


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## terron (Oct 11, 2008)

Even when I do remember I have PiP, I never use it. Its a one-track-mind thing.


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## Thunder7 (Nov 16, 2005)

I loved PIP with the Ultimate TV receiver. I kepth that thing around for a LONG time before finally letting it go. And the primary reason I kept it around was due to the PIP.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

I WANT MORE said:


> How about having the Red Zone Channel in one window and the game that you are most interested in in the other window? Pretty sweet huh?


Exactly


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

I would really like to have PIP to watch a sporting event and monitor a second game (2 football or hockey games). If the feature is added, *be sure that you could position the window in the corner of a 16x9 screen*. On the Scientific Atlantic DVR (Cisco) that TW uses, if you have a 16x9 screen, it puts the window where the corner would be on 4x3 screen. So it ends up towards the middle of the screen, which is annoying and distracting.

Both of my current TV's have PIP and I use them to view OTA games with games on D. I could add more D receivers to watch 2 NHLCI games at once. Just don't want to add $5/mo/TV to add this feature. PIP on the HRXX would be a much more desirable solution.


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## tthunder38 (Apr 24, 2008)

I got hooked on PIP via my Ultimate TV reciever. I recently upgraded all of my equipment and decided to set aside the Ultimate due to lack of HD capabilities. So now I have a new Pioneer and TWO HR-21's just so I could retain the ability to have my picture in picture. And I do use it a LOT.


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## LGM2007 (Dec 17, 2006)

I use PIP everyday. Sports in the corner, regular TV on the main screen. Also use it as a DLB workaround.

Having it built into one receiver will save me a lease fee on the other receiver.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Things I've used it for in the past other than 2 sporting events:
> 
> 1. Kids show on main screen (Dora, etc.), sporting event on in the PIP window to keep an eye on a game.
> 2. When we have company I used to put a sporting event on the main screen and music channel on in the PIP window. Then I'd use the music channel's audio via the sound system.
> 3. Watch a show (live or recorded) and have the weather channel on in the PIP window during severe weather.


+1 for #2 and #3

Sporting events with Rock n Roll is how I used PIP most. While I would definetely prefer DLB over PIP, I would think that DLB would have to be a prerequisite to PIP, IMHO.

As far as controlling PIP, I'd make it as simple as utilizing what's in the DLB buffers (redundant, I know) and using the Yellow button to select the PIP option(s). Easy.
Not sure why it hasn't been done already (oh yeah, D*).

Regards,
Frank


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

I would use PIP 2-3 times per week. BTW I have heard (and it was confirmed) that PIP is coming for Directv


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## rustynails (Apr 24, 2008)

curt8403 said:


> I would use PIP 2-3 times per week. BTW I have heard (and it was confirmed) that PIP is coming for Directv


I really hope that you are right but something better than dlb is comiing too! :lol:


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## Incog-Neato (Apr 21, 2006)

I have 2 HD-DVR's on my TV so I can "PIP" it but rarely ever use it. Keep PIP gimme DLB.


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

I have never found a need for or used PIP and I have had access to it for more years than I can remember.


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## pigskins (Sep 8, 2007)

I probably wouldn't use it daily, but I would definitely use it multiple times per week, while watching sporting events.


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

I constantly would use


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

blah, rather have dlb first than maybe this.


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## mlb (Jul 31, 2008)

When I had Dish I used it regularly when watching 2 games at the same time... or if watching a game while listening to their Sirius stations (Radio Margaritaville!). I really wish DirecTV would add this functionality.


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## Tom B (Nov 27, 2005)

I used it a lot when watching sports on ultimate tv. I thing that if I had it now, I would use it a good bit,,,


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have had PIP in my TVs for 10 years or so and use it at most once a year.


I use P and P -- my Sony Bravia supports side-by-side pictures rather than PIP. I use it a bit more often than Stuart, mainly for college football games.

I voted "other"


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## KSbugeater (Feb 17, 2005)

PIP is great for us ADD folks.

Seriously, I use PIP or PAP 90% of the time my HDTV is on. My son doesn't think it's fair that I have 2 receivers hooked up to one TV (4 tuners total) but he's quieted now that he has his own in his room.

My DVRs would ALWAYS be full if I didn't use PIP/PAP. (PIP lets you watch twice as many shows per hour of viewing time) And yes, I'm a sports nut, so I like to keep tabs on other live events in the PIP.

However, I've used my parents' dish 722, and while I like the idea of PIP on the receiver, theirs leaves a little to be desired. First, the PIP is too large, so it makes watching the main screen difficult in that corner. (on my home TV, the PIP is about the same size as the HR20's PIG, about 25% of the height of the main screen... I think that is ideal) And the locate button has 9 settings, including the middle of the screen! At most the 4 corners are needed. And lastly, the ability to choose which sound is crucial, and CC for the window would be nice if you can't have the sound.

To summarize, maybe I can't be pleased with a one-receiver solution...? Although it would be nice to save 5 bucks a month.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

I use my TV's PAP about weekly. (With the TV's ATSC) It is nice to have an optional feed (if some interesting news or sports shows up) and not have to FF through that optional show.


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## jbraden (Mar 23, 2004)

Draconis said:


> Honestly, I have never had PiP capability (and you do not miss what you never had) so I have to approach this with an open mind.
> 
> Would I use it? Probably.
> 
> ...


The HR20 probably has most of the hardware required to support PIP, since it has two independent tuners, and already supports a pseudo PIP when you're looking at the guide and it's playing the current show in a tiny window. the downside is that you couldn't record a show while using PIP, since both tuners would already be in use. The best way I've found to follow two shows at the same time is to record both and switch between them at commercial breaks. You don't miss any of the action in either one and can skip over the commercials. The HR20 (and HR21) already support that.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

For those who are fans of this idea, it was added to the Wish List today. You can vote for it at the link below. /steve


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

jbraden said:


> The HR20 probably has most of the hardware required to support PIP, since it has two independent tuners, and already supports a pseudo PIP when you're looking at the guide and it's playing the current show in a tiny window. the downside is that you couldn't record a show while using PIP, since both tuners would already be in use. *The best way I've found to follow two shows at the same time is to record both and switch between them at commercial breaks. You don't miss any of the action in either one and can skip over the commercials.* The HR20 (and HR21) already support that.


I agree with what you're saying, and I've done this before, however, to be able to actually see 2 shows or sporting events at the same time is just so much better (especially for sports). 

Maybe we'll get it on the new Tivo boxes.


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## hoopsbwc34 (Aug 13, 2002)

I think PIP is a sports related feature. I would only use it when watching live TV, which I only do for sporting events. But, being DirecTV is supposed to be all about their sports packages that are exclusive, it's hard for me to understand why this is a feature DishNetwork has that D* doesn't. And whenever I watch a sporting event at my friends home that has E*, we use the PIP.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Steve said:


> For those who are fans of this idea, it was added to the Wish List today. You can vote for it at the link below. /steve


Has anyone even confirmed the HR2x have the necessary hardware (e.g. two mpeg decoders)?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

DarinC said:


> Has anyone even confirmed the HR2x have the necessary hardware (e.g. two mpeg decoders)?


Not that I know of, but no one has confirmed that it can't be done with existing hw/sw either.  /steve


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Steve said:


> no one has confirmed that it can't be done with existing hw/sw either.  /steve


I understand the optimistic approach.  This, however, seems to be a bit different than most wishlist items though, in that this isn't something that can be addressed solely in software. These don't have anywhere near the horsepower to decode in software, so dedicated hardware MPEG decoders are necessary. Either it's going to be able to decode two MPEG streams at once, or it's not. I know someone had some specs of the hardware on these things, I just thought someone would already know if this was even feasible.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

DarinC said:


> I understand the optimistic approach.  This, however, seems to be a bit different than most wishlist items though, in that this isn't something that can be addressed solely in software. These don't have anywhere near the horsepower to decode in software, so dedicated hardware MPEG decoders are necessary. Either it's going to be able to decode two MPEG streams at once, or it's not. I know someone had some specs of the hardware on these things, I just thought someone would already know if this was even feasible.


We have no benchmarks on how utilized the MPEG decoders are now. It's very possible that a second low-res, low pixel count stream for a small PIP window could not be decoded in parallel on the same chip. Just my .02.

As an aside, does anyone know how many decoders are in a DISH VIP box? /steve


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Steve said:


> It's very possible that a second low-res, low pixel count stream for a small PIP window could not be decoded in parallel on the same chip.


Except it wouldn't be a low res low pixel count stream... it would be full rez (unless the expectation is that DirecTV is going to start broadcasting a duplicate low-res version of every channel specifically for PIP duty). The stream is whatever size it is, it would have to be decoded, scaled, and overlayed onto another stream that it is being tuned and decoded at the same time. Obviously, the second tuner is there (on the DVRs). But unless they hid a second hardware MPEG decoder in there, I don't see how it would be possible. The two-room dish boxes by nature have to have a second decoder. There are dual decoder chipsets out there, though it would be surprising if the HR2x had one. That's why I raised the question about the specs.


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## ejohnson (Jan 4, 2006)

Even if it is not hardware possible currently, it could still stay on the wishlist for future models


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

FWIW, I checked the spec sheet for the Broadcomm 7411 Decoder found in our HR2x's, and it lists among the features:


Dual-stream decoding with independent program clock reference (PCR) clock recovery
This sounds promising. It may also be what Dish is using in the VIP's to generate a second SD output stream from a different program source, or it's own PIP/POP/PBP. According to the VIP user guide, you must be in "single" mode to view PIP, meaning you can't output to a second TV (dual mode), so I believe that this is because the 7411 is only capable of decoding dual streams, assuming they are using the same chip. /steve


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## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

When I had Dish I for sure use PIP every day.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Steve said:


> FWIW, I checked the spec sheet for the Broadcomm 7411 Decoder found in our HR2x's, and it lists among the features:
> 
> Dual-stream decoding with independent program clock reference (PCR) clock recovery
> This sounds promising. It may also be what Dish is using in the VIP's to generate a second SD output stream from a different program source, or it's own PIP/POP/PBP. According to the VIP user guide, you must be in "single" mode to view PIP, meaning you can't output to a second TV (dual mode), so I believe that this is because the 7411 is only capable of decoding dual streams, assuming they are using the same chip. /steve


The HR23's have the BCM5325F, how much different are those?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

theratpatrol said:


> The HR23's have the BCM5325F, how much different are those?


I Googled it, and that's an ethernet controller chip. Whatever decoder it's using, I can't imagine it isn't the 7411 or a successor, which presumably would have improved capability. /steve


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Steve said:


> FWIW, I checked the spec sheet for the Broadcomm 7411 Decoder found in our HR2x's...


Good find!  I knew somewhere there was mention of what chip they used, but didn't know it off hand. I'm still not completely sure what they are referring to... can it decode two MPEG4 streams at once, or is that referring to processing both the video and audio streams, or the ability to output the decoded video as two independant feeds (for simultaneous HD and SD output). This suggests it can handle two streams IF they are both SD.

But at least with the chip ID, the window is open to research further. Here is a very relevant thread, it suggests that PIP is not possible, and that you would need two BCM7411s to do PIP (and also mentions that the Dish box has two of them). Searching Broadcom's site gives a lot of results for PIP, but I only found one page that lists PIP in conjunction with the BCM7411. That seems to be talking more about the dual channel capabilities of the BCM7038... perhaps a single BCM7038 can process two independant video channels, but two BCM7411s would be required to decode the MPEG streams? Knowing the hardware it should be easy to determine the capabilities, but at first glance, the information seems a bit conflicting.


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## BetterThanMost (Sep 24, 2008)

My JVC does POP or PAP. I use it virtually every day. When the wife wants to watch a show and I want to watch a game, we put it in dual screen mode. Also, all day on Saturday and Sunday its in dual screen mode watching multiple games at once. I have two receivers to control the two screens. The TV overlaps slightly when a HD signal is shown with a SD signal, and puts the two side by side when two SD signals are shown (See pictures). I am familiar with the PIP on the SA 8300 and I didn't like it. As someone earlier mentioned, it floats in the middle of the screen, and is always blocking important info on the screen or part of the picture. For my TV at least, I think DLB would work to allow me to have POP with one receiver, if there was the ability to route the signal of the two tuners to different outputs.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

Keep in mind that there is a significant difference between decoding two streams and displaying them (at different resolutions, possibly overlapping) simultaneously.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

gregjones said:


> Keep in mind that there is a significant difference between decoding two streams and displaying them (at different resolutions, possibly overlapping) simultaneously.


The 7411 works in tandem with the main 7038 chip, about which Broadcomm says _"Dual video/audio channels allow dual TV support, with independent PIP support on main and secondary"_, whatever that means.  /steve

http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7038-PB01-R.pdf


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Steve said:


> The 7411 works in tandem with the main 7038 chip, about which Broadcomm says _"Dual video/audio channels allow dual TV support, with independent PIP support on main and secondary"_, whatever that means.  /steve
> 
> http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7038-PB01-R.pdf


Sounds promising.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

Not sure what would cause the limitation, but my bargain Sanyo CRT HDTV has a PAP where one side must be the ATSC tuner. The other side can be any other (SD or HD) source. (Yes they can be swapped) ...


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

paulh said:


> Not sure what would cause the limitation, but my bargain Sanyo CRT HDTV has a PAP where one side must be the ATSC tuner. The other side can be any other (SD or HD) source.


Can the "other source" also be from the ATSC tuner? In other words, can your TV decode two MPEG streams at once?


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Steve said:


> I Googled it, and that's an ethernet controller chip. Whatever decoder it's using, I can't imagine it isn't the 7411 or a successor, which presumably would have improved capability. /steve


Ok, the First Look of the HR23 shows pictures of the BCM5325F, thats why I was asking about it.



BetterThanMost said:


> My JVC does POP or PAP. I use it virtually every day. When the wife wants to watch a show and I want to watch a game, we put it in dual screen mode. Also, all day on Saturday and Sunday its in dual screen mode watching multiple games at once. I have two receivers to control the two screens. The TV overlaps slightly when a HD signal is shown with a SD signal, and puts the two side by side when two SD signals are shown (See pictures). I am familiar with the PIP on the SA 8300 and I didn't like it. As someone earlier mentioned, it floats in the middle of the screen, and is always blocking important info on the screen or part of the picture. For my TV at least, I think DLB would work to allow me to have POP with one receiver, if there was the ability to route the signal of the two tuners to different outputs.


Does your TV do HD PIP, can it show 2 HD screens at the same time? Mine can't.


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## Keeska (Feb 10, 2007)

You left out one option - "I use it now". It has been available for years on my SD DVRs  

I would love to see the same functionality available on the HD DVRs. Of course it would require dual live buffers to make PIP work like it should.


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## gator5000e (Aug 29, 2006)

My mom's Brighthouse HD DVR has the ability to generate a PIP irrespective of the TV's ability. Had that feature for quite a while (not sure which DVR Brighthouse uses). With my TV, I could have my regular PIP off my old Samsung HD receiver and the PIP from the HR receiver. This would be a great feature addition.

BTW, I use the PIP daily. Heroes and hockey...a great combination!


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## BetterThanMost (Sep 24, 2008)

theratpatrol said:


> Ok, the First Look of the HR23 shows pictures of the BCM5325F, thats why I was asking about it.
> 
> Does your TV do HD PIP, can it show 2 HD screens at the same time? Mine can't.


No, mine can only show 1 HD source at a time.


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## tthunder38 (Apr 24, 2008)

BetterThanMost said:


> No, mine can only show 1 HD source at a time.


Same here.....one HD & one SD.


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## BreezeCJ (Jan 8, 2007)

sshams95 said:


> When I was using Ultimate TV, I used PIP daily for watching football, hockey, following different news channels. I loved using it while watching the news and having the PIP screen for any sport event where I didn't care to listen to audio.


PIP is the #1 thing I miss about my UltimateTV. I don't see why it couldn't be implemented through a software update. Since we have 2 tuners, just tweek the software that displays the small picture while surfing the guide or OnDemand.


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## ccsoftball7 (Apr 2, 2003)

I like the idea of 2 side by side POP...


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

My Sonys have PoP (they call it P&P) that are side by side, allowing shrinking or enlarging either and changing focus (sound) to either picture.

It will only allow 1 HDMI source(or any other) but component or S-video or composit on the right one.

PIP within the HR2x would be nice but it's lower on my list.


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## VLaslow (Aug 16, 2006)

If one of my DVR's is busy I can use my TV's PIP to see the other one.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

BetterThanMost said:


> No, mine can only show 1 HD source at a time.





tthunder38 said:


> Same here.....one HD & one SD.


How are you guys hooking up 2 DVR's to your TVs for PIP, are you outputting HDMI/component and S-Video to the TV at the same time?

Thanks


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## tthunder38 (Apr 24, 2008)

theratpatrol said:


> How are you guys hooking up 2 DVR's to your TVs for PIP, are you outputting HDMI/component and S-Video to the TV at the same time?
> 
> Thanks


I can route it that way or use an OTA connection for the second input but for some reason that is beyond my understanding it still only gives you a SD picture. The guy I get all of my electronic equipment from thinks he has a line on some sort of conversion box that will allow the HD signals for both inputs but I don't have that hooked up and working at this time. Probably hook it up next week and if it works I'll post the info here.


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## fleadog99 (Jul 14, 2007)

I would use PIP if I didn't only use projectors which cant use PIP.


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## BetterThanMost (Sep 24, 2008)

theratpatrol said:


> How are you guys hooking up 2 DVR's to your TVs for PIP, are you outputting HDMI/component and S-Video to the TV at the same time?
> 
> Thanks


Yes. My TV has 6 inputs, Digital, Coax and 4 Component/S-Video, I have my HR22 connected to DIGITAL via HDMI. My R16 is connected via S-Video to INPUT 3. I also have a DVD player connected to INPUT 2 via component and a Wii connected to INPUT 4 via component. I can select which 2 sources display at a time on the TV's remote.


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## terrelliott (May 7, 2007)

curt8403 said:


> I would use PIP 2-3 times per week. BTW I have heard (and it was confirmed) that PIP is coming for Directv


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## terrelliott (May 7, 2007)

It looks like a lot of people here are not on the same page. Most of you are thinking about traditional PIP where one source is the Directv feed and the other source is a dvd player or ota tuner. I wouldn't use that method very much either. But to watch 2 directv feeds simultaneously like we could do on the UltimateTV receivers, I'd use that all the time. Some of you are saying you'd rather have dlb, but that doesn't make sense to me. Why would you rather have the feature to toggle back and forth between tuners and have a buffer so you can back up if you miss anything, when with PIP you could watch them both at the same time? That very notion just seems contradictory to me. Give me PIP over DLB any day of the week, and twice (if not more) on Sundays!


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## mcbeevee (Sep 18, 2006)

I prefer PBP (picture beside picture). All you need are 2 tv's and 2 receivers!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

terrelliott said:


> It looks like a lot of people here are not on the same page. Most of you are thinking about traditional PIP where one source is the Directv feed and the other source is a dvd player or ota tuner. I wouldn't use that method very much either. But to watch 2 directv feeds simultaneously like we could do on the UltimateTV receivers, I'd use that all the time.


Yes. That's what this feature request is all about, though no reason the HR2x OTA tuner could be in one of the PIP windows.

The point is we're only talking about DirecTV-generated PIP/POP/PBP windows, since you can't hook up an external video source to the HR2x (besides an AM21). So this request would be limited to any combination of two PLAYLIST recordings and/or HR2x tuners that may be available. /steve


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## ejohnson (Jan 4, 2006)

mcbeevee said:


> I prefer PBP (picture beside picture). All you need are 2 tv's and 2 receivers!


But then you could watch 4 games at once! :righton:


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## rustynails (Apr 24, 2008)

terrelliott said:


> It looks like a lot of people here are not on the same page. Most of you are thinking about traditional PIP where one source is the Directv feed and the other source is a dvd player or ota tuner. I wouldn't use that method very much either. But to watch 2 directv feeds simultaneously like we could do on the UltimateTV receivers, I'd use that all the time. Some of you are saying you'd rather have dlb, but that doesn't make sense to me. Why would you rather have the feature to toggle back and forth between tuners and have a buffer so you can back up if you miss anything, when with PIP you could watch them both at the same time? That very notion just seems contradictory to me. Give me PIP over DLB any day of the week, and twice (if not more) on Sundays!


I totally agree! With the VIP 722 you can have pip by pip, change the size of the pip and put it in several different places on the screen. Why D did not do this is beyond my comprehension!


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

curt8403 said:


> I would use PIP 2-3 times per week. BTW I have heard (and it was confirmed) that PIP is coming for Directv


Do you know what the time frame is?


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## joe diamond (Feb 28, 2007)

tthunder38 said:


> I can route it that way or use an OTA connection for the second input but for some reason that is beyond my understanding it still only gives you a SD picture. The guy I get all of my electronic equipment from thinks he has a line on some sort of conversion box that will allow the HD signals for both inputs but I don't have that hooked up and working at this time. Probably hook it up next week and if it works I'll post the info here.


I would suggest abandon the attempt to get HD on the little pic. It is just too small to observe the HD. I installed a job where the customer had been sold two HD boxes.......unnecessary! You DO need two receivers to get PIP on different channels (feeds).

Joe


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## tthunder38 (Apr 24, 2008)

joe diamond said:


> I would suggest abandon the attempt to get HD on the little pic. It is just too small to observe the HD. I installed a job where the customer had been sold two HD boxes.......unnecessary! You DO need two receivers to get PIP on different channels (feeds).
> 
> Joe


I agree that HD vs SD on the small pic doesn't really matter. The reason I want HD on both pics is for when you toggle between the two. As it is now one picture is SD and one is HD and it stays that way as you switch between the two. So there are times when you wind up with SD on the big pic.


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## joe diamond (Feb 28, 2007)

tthunder38 said:


> I agree that HD vs SD on the small pic doesn't really matter. The reason I want HD on both pics is for when you toggle between the two. As it is now one picture is SD and one is HD and it stays that way as you switch between the two. So there are times when you wind up with SD on the big pic.


Ah, correct...........I'm not enough of a TV watcher to use the feature. I install them, read a little have a beer & like that.

In the scheme of things we should all pray that the worst problem we face is the need to view SD when we could be using HD.

Sets the can switch from one source to the other within PIP could use two HD receivers.

Joe


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## JMII (Jan 19, 2008)

Instead of PIP I'd like the ability to create my own MIX channels and assign them the colored buttons 

But more then anything I want MRV. About once a week my wife asks about that one feature... its a MUST have!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

IMHO....PIP is only of real practical value on a screen of 55" or larger.

I have one unit that supports it, and don't use it at all anymore.

I use the NFL ST 8-game-mix-view plenty....but then....that's watching it in HD on a 116" screen. I wouldn't even think of doing so on my 42" or 50" units....just too small.


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## ABQ_bound (Oct 24, 2008)

It's been a feature on the last two TVs I have owned and I never used it. I will say that I did watch the news mix channel on DTV on election night to watch the results come in. Guess you could call that a super PIP.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

DarinC said:


> Can the "other source" also be from the ATSC tuner? In other words, can your TV decode two MPEG streams at once?


No. I guess it is only decoding one MPEG2 stream. (Although how are the 2 feeds merged together?) I was just thinking it was OK since it handled 2 HD streams


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## sunking (Feb 17, 2004)

joe diamond said:


> I would suggest abandon the attempt to get HD on the little pic. It is just too small to observe the HD. I installed a job where the customer had been sold two HD boxes.......unnecessary! You DO need two receivers to get PIP on different channels (feeds).
> 
> Joe


I think people are expecting too much from the intent of PiP. Its not for watching two shows side by side, afterall, you only get audio out of one. Its most common use is for allowing you to keep an eye on a game or show so you know when to shift your interest. IE, when American Idol is on commercial or some crap you don't care about you can keep an eye on it and know when to go back. Or between innings of a baseball game or you really only care if runs are scored.

In order for it to work in any decent way you need DLB. IE, a run is scored, you focus back to the game and rewind 30s to see it all play out. The proportion doesn't matter, its no more work to do a 50-50 split than a 90-10 PiP. Most PiP systems I've seen allows you do choose from 50-50 to just a window in any corner. Obviously they can alreadfy PiP for the tv guide, so that is already solved. The only issues for them are DLB and decoding 2 MPEG-4 streams at the same time. DLB should have been solved long ago, and supposedly the chip can do the decoding. IF, and its a big IF, we get DLB I would suspect PiP to come pretty soon afterward unless there are some stupid HDMI restrictions that keeps you from combining. But I would think you'ld run into those issues just with doing the PiP in the tv guide.


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## eibook (Jan 5, 2007)

I think PIP would be a nice feature, but there are definitely more important features om my personal Wish List.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

My TV has PIP and I thought I would use it, but the implementation is not useable. I think I would use PIP now and then, if a good version was available. I also think my wife would use it if it was easy to figure out.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

bakers12 said:


> My TV has PIP and I thought I would use it, but the implementation is not useable. I think I would use PIP now and then, if a good version was available. I also think my wife would use it if it was easy to figure out.


Ya. That's the big question for me. How to make it intuitive to use with the current DirecTV remote.

I envision a YELLOW button option to activate a PIP window either TOP, BOTTOM, LEFT or RIGHT, and then perhaps using PREV or SELECT (while while the window is highlighted) to SWAP. /steve


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Steve said:


> Ya. That's the big question for me. How to make it intuitive to use with the current DirecTV remote.
> 
> I envision a YELLOW button option to activate a PIP window either TOP, BOTTOM, LEFT or RIGHT, and then perhaps using PREV or SELECT (while while the window is highlighted) to SWAP. /steve


If they could keep all the PIP commands together that might be best. As you said, yellow to activate and then maybe green for swap, red for move and blue for size or maybe switch to POP.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

RACJ2 said:


> If they could keep all the PIP commands together that might be best. As you said, yellow to activate and then maybe green for swap, red for move and blue for size or maybe switch to POP.


Probably can't use the color buttons because GREEN and BLUE have assigned functions that are pertinent to the main window (SAP and MINIGUIDE). I think SELECTING the PIP window might be an intuitive way of making it the MAIN window (and making the SWAP). /steve


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Steve said:


> Ya. That's the big question for me. How to make it intuitive to use with the current DirecTV remote.
> 
> I envision a YELLOW button option to activate a PIP window either TOP, BOTTOM, LEFT or RIGHT, and then perhaps using PREV or SELECT (while while the window is highlighted) to SWAP. /steve





RACJ2 said:


> If they could keep all the PIP commands together that might be best. As you said, yellow to activate and then maybe green for swap, red for move and blue for size or maybe switch to POP.





Steve said:


> Probably can't use the color buttons because GREEN and BLUE have assigned functions that are pertinent to the main window (SAP and MINIGUIDE). I think SELECTING the PIP window might be an intuitive way of making it the MAIN window (and making the SWAP). /steve


I was thinking they could use the arrow buttons, maybe use left arrow to activate (I know many wouldn't like that, but we do have a back button after all) right arrow to swap back and forth, and the up/down arrow keys to change the channel in the window thats not highlighted. Future remotes could have PIP buttons placed in between the VOL/CH UP/DOWN buttons.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

theratpatrol said:


> I was thinking they could use the arrow buttons, maybe use left arrow to activate (I know many wouldn't like that, but we do have a back button after all) right arrow to swap back and forth, and the up/down arrow keys to change the channel in the window thats not highlighted. Future remotes could have PIP buttons placed in between the VOL/CH UP/DOWN buttons.


I like the idea of using the up and down arrow keys for changing the PIP channel.


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## jerseyreef (Jun 9, 2007)

I would use it mainly for sports, Football and Baseball. Sure I have the Sports Mix channel, which could serve the same function, but I have no control on what is shown in the mix channel. With PiP I have total control and a much bigger screen box to watch it in...

Before I moved to D* almost two years ago, Comcast had PiP for their DVR's, even though my TV didn't at the time support PiP. And I could move the Comcast PiP to any four corners of the TV and change the channel at whim. 

I thought it was a pretty slick concept.

So, if the tech exists for Comcast to do it in their DVR's, why couldn't D*?

Thanks,

JerseyReef - Mike


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