# Legal way to record HD from DTV boxes



## Bob Coxner (Dec 28, 2005)

http://www.hauppage.com/site/products/data_hd_pvr.html No official price announced yet but pre-launch news had it at $249.

Discussion of the box: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32027

Basic summary: this box takes component HD output from your DTV box and passes it through to your HTPC as an h.264 stream, where you can then record it/edit it/burn it to DVD or whatever you want to do with it. This is a first, although DTV has announced the HDPC20 that will do the same thing.

By the way, the method they use to avoid HDCP legal restrictions is the "analog hole". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole

HDCP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP
HTPC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_theater_PC

This is huge news for anyone who has wanted to archive HD programming on DVD.

Edit: it's now available for pre-order on the Hauppage site

HD PVR: high definition personal video recorder from Component video, using a built-in high definition H.264 encoder
Model number: 01212
HD PVR allows you to record high definition TV programs to your PC
$249

I'll be curious to see what price DTV sets for the HDPC20.


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

why can't they just allow users to record programs or shift files to a BD recorder. 

they have released BD recorders in Japan already with built in hard drives. I just want to be able to backup programming i enjoy which i have already paid for legally. ie a tv show i like or movie. 

consumers should be allowed to record to disc, similarly to the ole betamax tape issue. i don't care about re-recording and restrictions later on further copies. honestly, i think consumers should get some ability to record without having to resort to analog workarounds. 

VAST MAJORITY OF CONSUMERS ARE NOT GOING TO PUT THESE THINGS ON ILLEGAL FILE SHARING NETWORKS. Ler us enjoy our legally paid for content properly.


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## ulbonado (Nov 29, 2007)

I wonder how long the "analog hole" will remain open. They've been threatening to close it for years, although actually doing so would piss off a bunch of perfectly legitimate people whose equipment is not HDMI-capable.


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## deltafowler (Aug 28, 2007)

Bob, 
Thanks for the information and the links!
That bad boy is going on my wishlist!

Quite timely given the recent 24 freshness dating of PPV's


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## stiffi (Jul 13, 2006)

What happens now when you plug Component Video into the DVD recorder? Does that not work?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

stiffi said:


> What happens now when you plug Component Video into the DVD recorder? Does that not work?


Try and find a DVD recorder with component inputs...if they exist they're very, very rare.

Also, it should be noted that several Sony DVD recorders will not record watermarked analog content even when recorded over composite or S Video.


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## Elephanthead (Feb 3, 2007)

You could alway record the component on a digital vcr, once it is analog, it is not covered by the digital copyright laws, so it is free game. This unit looks good as long as it retails for under a buck fifty at online discounters. Best part no vista mucking it up.


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## soccergrunt (Nov 17, 2005)

I have an old Philips DVD Recorder that has component input, but it will only accept 480I input. i have to switch my HR20 to only ouput in 480I. Still, it has pretty good PQ eventhough it is not HD.


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## SoCalYJ (Aug 7, 2007)

Has anyone pre-ordered one yet? Did they charge or put a hold on your CC? Just curious.


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## Rakul (Sep 3, 2007)

Dang and I just bought a ATI650 to. Wonder if the wife will notice if I sneak this in . Thanks for the link and info!


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## kb7oeb (Jun 16, 2004)

This box is the reason almost all HD devices with component out have the ability to limit component to 480


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## ctaranto (Feb 7, 2008)

ulbonado said:


> I wonder how long the "analog hole" will remain open. They've been threatening to close it for years, although actually doing so would piss off a bunch of perfectly legitimate people whose equipment is not HDMI-capable.


Like me. I have a Pioneer VSX-811 receiver and Pioneer Elite PRO-610HD RPTV, both 6 years young. All component. Neither HDMI capable. Superb picture. Metza metza sound.

-Craig


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## hbkbiggestfan (May 25, 2007)

So with this box I will be able to burn from my PC to a blank DVD R disc in 720p or 1080i? If so, how much programming will fit onto one DVD-/+R disc? How much programming will this box be able to store? Im a bit confused...


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

I can't wait for this to hit the market.


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## deltafowler (Aug 28, 2007)

hbkbiggestfan said:


> So with this box I will be able to burn from my PC to a blank DVD R disc in 720p or 1080i? If so, how much programming will fit onto one DVD-/+R disc? How much programming will this box be able to store? Im a bit confused...


A 4.7 GB disc will hold about 50 minutes of programming.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

I am afraid as soon as this thing is released it will be brought to court, having that "hole" or not the legal cost will shut it down.


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## Bob Coxner (Dec 28, 2005)

hbkbiggestfan said:


> So with this box I will be able to burn from my PC to a blank DVD R disc in 720p or 1080i? If so, how much programming will fit onto one DVD-/+R disc? How much programming will this box be able to store? Im a bit confused...


The box itself doesn't store anything, it just converts the HD signal to an h.264 stream and passes that to your PC for storage/editing/burning.

FWIW, the analog hole is also available for legally stripping DRM from MP3s. Programs like MuvAudio (which I use) and TuneBite make it extremely simple.

DRM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
http://www.muvaudio.com/
http://tunebite.com/en/remove_drm/index.html


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

kb7oeb said:


> This box is the reason almost all HD devices with component out have the ability to limit component to 480


You are probably right but I thought they could limit HDMI with HDCP but could not limit component.


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## jrinck (Apr 3, 2008)

Just because a signal is digital doesn't mean it can't be copied. If you had a box that simply didn't give two craps about the DMCA, you can do anything with the signal--digital or not.

I'm surprised there aren't more boxes like this coming out of places like Taiwan and China.


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## stephenC (Jul 18, 2007)

Bob Coxner said:


> The box itself doesn't store anything, it just converts the HD signal to an h.264 stream and passes that to your PC for storage/editing/burning.
> 
> FWIW, the analog hole is also available for legally stripping DRM from MP3s. Programs like MuvAudio (which I use) and TuneBite make it extremely simple.
> 
> ...


A cost effective MPEG4 (AVCHD) hardware encoder. Probably next year this will be incorporated into PC video cards.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

jrinck said:


> Just because a signal is digital doesn't mean it can't be copied. If you had a box that simply didn't give two craps about the DMCA, you can do anything with the signal--digital or not.
> 
> I'm surprised there aren't more boxes like this coming out of places like Taiwan and China.


Of course it is not difficult to make such things, DISH and DirecTV practically give away those devices. But as soon as you sell something that can export HD content the lawsuit will follow. No distributors will take up that task when they know they will be taken to the cleaners.


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## jrinck (Apr 3, 2008)

jacmyoung said:


> Of course it is not difficult to make such things, DISH and DirecTV practically give away those devices. But as soon as you sell something that can export HD content the lawsuit will follow. No distributors will take up that task when they know they will be taken to the cleaners.


Good luck suing China.


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## lokar (Oct 8, 2006)

Thank you for this information, I have been waiting for something like this for two years. I hope component output lives for many years (and not just for this box), I have a $1300 HDTV that has no HDMI capability.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> Of course it is not difficult to make such things, DISH and DirecTV practically give away those devices. But as soon as you sell something that can export HD content the lawsuit will follow. No distributors will take up that task when they know they will be taken to the cleaners.


I just can't disagree more look at Tivo! All the stand alone models take a analog input and record it. All we are talking about here is now being able to do that with analog component. The movie industry saw this coming and came up with first DVI and then HDMI so they could control the content more. The hardware manufacturers also like the idea of one cable and honestly so do most consumers. That said this is easily covered by fair use and I HIGHLY DOUBT anything new will be passed to stop it. It makes no sence to any consumer to say ya it's legal to record the SCIFI SD feed but illegal to record the SCIFI HD feed. People with Digital VCRs have been recording HD from cable boxes via firewire for years and it's perfectly legal. My hope is in 1-2 years we get new Stand Alone Tivo's with component in.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

jrinck said:


> Good luck suing China.


No, better luck suing the distributors.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

generalpatton78 said:
 

> I just can't disagree more look at Tivo! All the stand alone models take a analog input and record it. All we are talking about here is now being able to do that with analog component. The movie industry saw this coming and came up with first DVI and then HDMI so they could control the content more. The hardware manufacturers also like the idea of one cable and honestly so do most consumers. That said this is easily covered by fair use and I HIGHLY DOUBT anything new will be passed to stop it. It makes no sence to any consumer to say ya it's legal to record the SCIFI SD feed but illegal to record the SCIFI HD feed. People with Digital VCRs have been recording HD from cable boxes via firewire for years and it's perfectly legal. My hope is in 1-2 years we get new Stand Alone Tivo's with component in.


Unless the studios concede to give up all the efforts they have made so far to stop such recording capability, what do you think the odds of that?


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

BTW the firewire VCR recording is downrezzed to 480i which is why my digital VCR is collecting dust.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I've been able to record HD broadcasts and transfer them to my PC for over a year now. The series 3 Tivos and Tivo HDs now have TivoToGo so anyone with digital cable or FIOS can do this with ease. Unfortunately, those of you with DirecTV will have to wait for the Hauppauge capture card. FWIW, I've been able to transfer DirecTV programming from my Tivos, DTivos, HDTivos, and series 3 Tivos and burn them to DVD for about 7 or 8 years now.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> Unless the studios concede to give up all the efforts they have made so far to stop such recording capability, what do you think the odds of that?


Sorry but there is already precedent on these devices that first established "Fair Use". They threatened to sue Tivo each day but never did. The reason we haven't had component in HD recording isn't because it's a copyright violation but rather because it was a cost/technological issue. It now appears that hurdle is being crossed.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I've been able to record HD broadcasts and transfer them to my PC for over a year now. The series 3 Tivos and Tivo HDs now have TivoToGo so anyone with digital cable or FIOS can do this with ease. Unfortunately, those of you with DirecTV will have to wait for the Hauppauge capture card. FWIW, I've been able to transfer DirecTV programming from my Tivos, DTivos, HDTivos, and series 3 Tivos and burn them to DVD for about 7 or 8 years now.


Do you get to record in 1080i on all shows or just the networks HD? The OTA HD shows can be recorded in HD with my firewire VCR, but not the other pay HD channels, they are flagged to downrez to 480i or maybe 480p.

Let's make it clear, I have been recording HD as far back as I can remember. We are talking recording and burning true 1080i content onto portable media, not 480i content.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

generalpatton78 said:


> Sorry but there is already precedent on these devices that first established "Fair Use". They threatened to sue Tivo each day but never did. The reason we haven't had component in HD recording isn't because it's a copyright violation but rather because it was a cost/technological issue. It now appears that hurdle is being crossed.


I am not disputing that, just that if a popular device becomes available, all the studios need to do is require their signals be downrezzed on the component output, only HDMI can pass the HD resolution.

You can have your fair use, just in 480i/p. Then your new device will be just like my firewire VCR, a doorstop. BTW I only paid $199 for my brand new RCA firewire HDVCR so it was not a big loss.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> I am not disputing that, just that if a popular device becomes available, all the studios need to do is require their signals be downrezzed on the component output, only HDMI can pass the HD resolution.
> 
> You can have your fair use, just in 480i/p. Then your new device will be just like my firewire VCR, a doorstop. BTW I only paid $199 for my brand new RCA firewire HDVCR so it was not a big loss.


I could see this on Blu Ray players, but not on typical DVR or STB devices. I know the DVD and blu ray consortium does this with 1080p, but i'd say it's about impossible to enforce on todays current HD STBs. The firewire solution is unique in that it was a government mandated feature cable had to support and some feel there in violation of it now. Basically it was there to provide fair play use but able to enforce a copy system that could be enforced by copy right holders of the content. Component out on STB's was never designed for this type of flagging to my knowledge.

D* and E* would also IMHO be slow to adopt to Hollywoods demands if it possibly meant a Cable Card solution being forced on them because of consumer back lash.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

generalpatton78 said:


> I could see this on Blu Ray players, but not on typical DVR or STB devices. I know the DVD and blu ray consortium does this with 1080p, but i'd say it's about impossible to enforce on todays current HD STBs. The firewire solution is unique in that it was a government mandated feature cable had to support and some feel there in violation of it now. Basically it was there to provide fair play use but able to enforce a copy system that could be enforced by copy right holders of the content. Component out on STB's was never designed for this type of flagging to my knowledge.
> 
> D* and E* would also IMHO be slow to adopt to Hollywoods demands if it possibly meant a Cable Card solution being forced on them because of consumer back lash.


Actually the flagging is functional on the MPEG4 capable receivers. There used to be a test channel which I verified would give an error message on the component output but display fine on HDMI. That said, as of now I know of no channel the flag is set on but the capability IS there


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

longrider said:


> Actually the flagging is functional on the MPEG4 capable receivers. There used to be a test channel which I verified would give an error message on the component output but display fine on HDMI. That said, as of now I know of no channel the flag is set on but the capability IS there


Hmm does anybody else have more info on this? Even if true I HIGHLY doubt D* or any other provider will disable component out.


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## Rakul (Sep 3, 2007)

generalpatton78 said:


> Hmm does anybody else have more info on this? Even if true I HIGHLY doubt D* or any other provider will disable component out.


I doubt any of them would on their own accord. My fear would be more it gets forced on them by the content providers. You never know how stupid movie studios will get....


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

Rakul said:


> I doubt any of them would on their own accord. My fear would be more it gets forced on them by the content providers. You never know how stupid movie studios will get....


I'm actually really interested in what longrider said. I'm doing forum searches and using google and I'm not finding anything. Any chance Earl has any info on this test channel??

Edited to say I'm actually really interested in knowing if this in fact was a test channel that disabled the component output or simply used CGMS-A to tell the TV to display the error. Now if it's the second all you need is the device simply not to support CGMS-A content control.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I remember the test channel being there.. mine passed on HDMI.. was a long time ago tho, middle of last year maybe?
and with the PPV 24h thing happening who knows when they could require this too....


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

houskamp said:


> I remember the test channel being there.. mine passed on HDMI.. was a long time ago tho, middle of last year maybe?
> and with the PPV 24h thing happening who knows when they could require this too....


I think the 24hr PPV is no big deal and is a reasonable expectation when you buy a *Pay Per View*. On the other hand I mean for Directv to turn off component when they have had so many issues with HDMI WOW. I think that would be just crazy and could lead to consumers demanding reforms. Now I could see a copy protection system set up that was there to disable recordings but it wouldn't be illegal in any way for a device like the one we are talking about to simply ignore the flags that told it "do not copy".


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## ctaranto (Feb 7, 2008)

longrider said:


> Actually the flagging is functional on the MPEG4 capable receivers. There used to be a test channel which I verified would give an error message on the component output but display fine on HDMI. That said, as of now I know of no channel the flag is set on but the capability IS there


I wonder how D* would handle cases like mine, where I'm in a 2 year contract, and my HD equipment is component only.

If they purchase me an HDTV of the same size (58") that supports HDMI, I'm all for it. 

-Craig


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## grandpaken (Feb 4, 2006)

generalpatton78 said:


> Hmm does anybody else have more info on this? Even if true I HIGHLY doubt D* or any other provider will disable component out.


 If that ever happens a few million HDTV's with only component would become instantly be rendered obsolete and would most likely lead to a class action suit against Directv, MPAA, RIAA, AARP, NCAA or whatever other groups don't want us to watch HD on our older sets.


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## Packersrule (Sep 10, 2007)

OK - A hard question.. Will the output AVCHD be able to play on Windows XP Media Center?


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

People continue to miss the point here.

The component output will never be disabled, rather downrezzed to 480p if necessary. All modern receivers are required to have such capability by the studios. The only path allowed for an HD stream will be a full-digital path with copy protection built-in.

Of course it is up to the studios to determine when or even if such component downrez may occur. You can protest all you want, or even be successful in making it illegal to downrez the component output, but the studios can easily decide not to offer any HD shows anymore and only release them on Blu-ray, or simple provide only the upconverted 480p to the TV providers. Unlikely but you get the picture.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> People continue to miss the point here.
> 
> The component output will never be disabled, rather downrezzed to 480p if necessary. All modern receivers are required to have such capability by the studios. The only path allowed for an HD stream will be a full-digital path with copy protection built-in.
> 
> Of course it is up to the studios to determine when or even if such component downrez may occur. You can protest all you want, or even be successful in making it illegal to downrez the component output, but the studios can easily decide not to offer any HD shows anymore and only release them on Blu-ray, or simple provide only the upconverted 480p to the TV providers. Unlikely but you get the picture.


I'm not aware of any device except HDDVD and Blu Ray players that studios have made this happen and it's not 480p but a 900x500 something resolution. Again I point out that Firewire was designed to be a transfer feature while copy right holders could still control content. That makes it very different then studios trying to force component cables on STBs to downrez or not work.

I might also point out this will have very little effect on Blu Ray IMHO because the copy protection for Blu Ray has been broken. People who want to copy movies from Blu Ray will simply copy the disc. This new box will have a bigger impact on us who want to legally archive our programs onto DVD or Blu Ray. BTW this product comes with software that allows you to create a DVD that will play back in HD on a PS3 blu ray player.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

The way it was implemented on the DirecTv box is you had to select a resolution of 480P or 480I to see the video. Selecting 720 or 1080 got you the restricted message with instructions to change your resolution.

As others have said, there is no way I could imagine that DirecTV would want to do this, but the content providers could force it just like the 24 HR PPV.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

It would really work good on my Pansat HD to record PBS-HD, and even if it did 480p from Directv component outs, The quality should be much better than compressing to mpeg2 with an encoder like I do now.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

For OTA HD content no they can not downrez.

But pay TV HD even if what said above is true, the studios can still decide to only offer 480p upconverted content if they choose to.

It is all a matter of how widely spread the compromise is. If the situation is to the point the studios feel threatened, they can act on their own.

Ripping DVD or HD DVR disks will not likely be to the point that the studios will make a big fuss about since it involves geek work, and will not be very wide spread, but a device like the OP described can be a common household electronics as simple as a DVD recorder, it has the potential to be responded to.

Sometimes it only takes the studios's refusal to license contents to anyone that is associated with the recorder maker to get it off the market. Again it is up to the content providers, they will weigh the plus and minus, including potential consumer backlash, in making any move.

Unfortunately since the digital transition began, consumer backlash has never seemed to make the studios think twice about trying to restrict digital copying.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> For OTA HD content no they can not downrez.
> 
> But pay TV HD even if what said above is true, the studios can still decide to only offer 480p upconverted content if they choose to.
> 
> ...


See I disagree on the disc copying aspect. I think they should fear people who seek to copy a disk far more. It's easy and there are TONS of free apps to copy DVDs and it's only a matter of time before that translates to Blu Ray. At this time I only know of one program that does it for Blu Ray but that will change. With disc copying operations they can make almost a exact copy of not only the disc but the box as well. Then you have a buissness of pirating and that's a threat.

As I said I don't think they should fear this new device leading to widespread problems any more then Tivo did. This device does nothing more then the first tivo's except they are doing it with HD content. However I do expect this to lead to 900x500 type rez for Blu Ray if consumer devices using this technology become mainstream. They will use this to try to convince people HDMI is the greatest thing since sliced bread and consumers shouldn't waste there time on component devices. I don't think they will find it as easy to force down rezzing on STB devices.

The real problem is the MPAA and other copy right groups hate ANY type of fair use. Lets not forget they wanted to make any type of recording of paid content or even OTA content illegal. That led to the Betamax case that established Fair Use and eventually led to all DVRs. So I don't think Hollywood carries the weight you seem to think it does. What are they going to tell WallMart "Hey you sold a HDDVR so we're going to stop selling you anything and give up half our profits!". So if the demand is there for these devices they will be made and sold by main stream retailers. Hollywood may respond by neutering Blu Ray but they don't have that type of control over STBs IMHO.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

jacmyoung said:


> Do you get to record in 1080i on all shows or just the networks HD? The OTA HD shows can be recorded in HD with my firewire VCR, but not the other pay HD channels, they are flagged to downrez to 480i or maybe 480p.
> 
> Let's make it clear, I have been recording HD as far back as I can remember. We are talking recording and burning true 1080i content onto portable media, not 480i content.


Yes, I can record the original resolution to DVD, wheteher it be 1080i or 720p. I believe Fox and ABC broadast in 720p so any OTA broadcasts from them will be in that resolution. I routinely record HD programming from HBO HD, UHD, AEHD, HDNet Movies, and others.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

generalpatton78 said:


> See I disagree on the disc copying aspect. I think they should fear people who seek to copy a disk far more. It's easy and there are TONS of free apps to copy DVDs and it's only a matter of time before that translates to Blu Ray. At this time I only know of one program that does it for Blu Ray but that will change. With disc copying operations they can make almost a exact copy of not only the disc but the box as well. Then you have a buissness of pirating and that's a threat.
> 
> As I said I don't think they should fear this new device leading to widespread problems any more then Tivo did. This device does nothing more then the first tivo's except they are doing it with HD content. However I do expect this to lead to 900x500 type rez for Blu Ray if consumer devices using this technology become mainstream. They will use this to try to convince people HDMI is the greatest thing since sliced bread and consumers shouldn't waste there time on component devices. I don't think they will find it as easy to force down rezzing on STB devices.
> 
> The real problem is the MPAA and other copy right groups hate ANY type of fair use. Lets not forget they wanted to make any type of recording of paid content or even OTA content illegal. That led to the Betamax case that established Fair Use and eventually led to all DVRs. So I don't think Hollywood carries the weight you seem to think it does. What are they going to tell WallMart "Hey you sold a HDDVR so we're going to stop selling you anything and give up half our profits!". So if the demand is there for these devices they will be made and sold by main stream retailers. Hollywood may respond by neutering Blu Ray but they don't have that type of control over STBs IMHO.


It's already happened with Blu-Ray. The main problem is that copying commercial Blu-Ray discs is not yet cost effective. Both burners and media are extremely expensive. Right now there are only a few apps that can be used to rip Blu-Ray discs and I believe AnyDVD HD is the only one that has fully cracked BD+.

As the format gets some more age on it and more burners and blank media are sold, the prices will start to come down, as they have with all previous formats. I remember paying about $400 for my first CD burner (A Sony 1X model) and $500 for my first DVD burner (The Pioneer A01). Blank CDs ran anywhere from about $12-18 and the old burners made more coasters than I can count. Blank DVDs weren't quite so expensive and didn't take long to get down to a more reasonable price. Blu-Ray will probably take longer to saturate the market since the vast majority of consumers haven't entered the HD arena yet so don't expect to see huge price drops anytime soon. I expect it will take several years before blank recordable BD discs get below a couple bucks per disc.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

captain_video said:


> Yes, I can record the original resolution to DVD, wheteher it be 1080i or 720p. I believe Fox and ABC broadast in 720p so any OTA broadcasts from them will be in that resolution. I routinely record HD programming from HBO HD, UHD, AEHD, HDNet Movies, and others.


what format are you recording in? HD requires 4 times the info so you should only get 15 minutes of HD on a single sided DVD.. thought that was why bluray/hddvd held about 50 gig..


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

captain_video said:


> It's already happened with Blu-Ray. The main problem is that copying commercial Blu-Ray discs is not yet cost effective. Both burners and media are extremely expensive. Right now there are only a few apps that can be used to rip Blu-Ray discs and I believe AnyDVD HD is the only one that has fully cracked BD+.
> 
> ...


Not surprised at all. I had been copying SD DVD's for years finally gave up and started to rent Netflix when the PC I used bit the dust. It's just not worth the effort.

Commercial pirating is easy to stop, it is the individual act that is hard to, which is why they have not done so to me and many others.

The catch here is me and many others had very little impact on the bottomline. The vast majority of people will not hack. But if you put a legit device that is simple to use like the one described above it can quickly spread like a DVD recorder/player. That is when sh$% will hit the fan.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

houskamp said:


> what format are you recording in? HD requires 4 times the info so you should only get 15 minutes of HD on a single sided DVD.. thought that was why bluray/hddvd held about 50 gig..


 You can use h.264 and get close to 2 hrs of HD on a disk. That said I think that would be bit starving the video and 90min would probably be the better option.


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## Groundhog45 (Nov 10, 2005)

generalpatton78 said:


> You can use h.264 and get close to 2 hrs of HD on a disk. That said I think that would be bit starving the video and 90min would probably be the better option.


How much can you put on a dual layer disk?


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## trekologer (Jun 30, 2007)

As soon as the copyright mafia force DirecTV and outhers to output HD over HDMI only is when you'll start to see a little black box that takes HDMI in and puts compnent out hit the market. You can bet on that.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

houskamp said:


> what format are you recording in? HD requires 4 times the info so you should only get 15 minutes of HD on a single sided DVD.. thought that was why bluray/hddvd held about 50 gig..


A S3 Tivo records content as mpeg2 transport streams. Ulead's DVD Movie Factory allows you to author HD-DVDs using mpeg2 files, which is an acceptable HD-DVD format. Depending on the original program, I can get about 30 to 50 minutes of HD content on a DVD-5 disc, and sometimes just a bit more. Most 2-hour movies require 3-4 blank discs to record.



Groundhog45 said:


> How much can you put on a dual layer disk?


Don't know as I've never tried burning dual layer discs with HD content (or any other content for that matter). Blank single layer discs cost me less than about $0.35 apiece for Taiyo Yuden blanks in bulk. Last time I checked dual layer discs were at least 3-4 times that in bulk quantities. I really wouldn't end up saving much in the way of disc space by using dual layer discs anyway. If a movie required three DVD-Rs then I'd have to use two DL discs. For a 4-disc movie I'd probably have to use 3 DL discs or two DL's and a single disc.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

trekologer said:


> As soon as the copyright mafia force DirecTV and outhers to output HD over HDMI only is when you'll start to see a little black box that takes HDMI in and puts compnent out hit the market. You can bet on that.


"Black box", here is the keyword. Which means it will remain a black box, and when it becomes a threat its distributor will be chased after.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

captain_video said:


> A S3 Tivo records content as mpeg2 transport streams. Ulead's DVD Movie Factory allows you to author HD-DVDs using mpeg2 files, which is an acceptable HD-DVD format. Depending on the original program, I can get about 30 to 50 minutes of HD content on a DVD-5 disc, and sometimes just a bit more. Most 2-hour movies require 3-4 blank discs to record.
> 
> Don't know as I've never tried burning dual layer discs with HD content (or any other content for that matter). Blank single layer discs cost me less than about $0.35 apiece for Taiyo Yuden blanks in bulk. Last time I checked dual layer discs were at least 3-4 times that in bulk quantities. I really wouldn't end up saving much in the way of disc space by using dual layer discs anyway. If a movie required three DVD-Rs then I'd have to use two DL discs. For a 4-disc movie I'd probably have to use 3 DL discs or two DL's and a single disc.


Which is why you and many others can freely do such copying, because such method will not become mainstream. As soon as a plug-n-play device is available to pose a threat to the Blu-ray and other HD businesses and salea, that is when things will get tough.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

jacmyoung said:


> Which is why you and many others can freely do such copying, because such method will not become mainstream. As soon as a plug-n-play device is available to pose a threat to the Blu-ray and other HD businesses and salea, that is when things will get tough.


And that's the beauty of it. Using a defunct format without the need for special burners and media keeps us below the radar. There are already BD burners and media available so I'm not quite sure what it is you're waiting to see hit the marketplace. OTOH, I think the BD media that's currently available is only single layer and is limited to 25GB whereas the vast majority of BD titles exceed that capacity. Many of the actual movie titles are less than 25GB but the extra crap they include on the disc eats up a lot of real estate.

What's really lacking is a utility like DVDFab Decryptor that can stip out the extras and leave the original disc structure intact with just the main movie. There is already a method whereby you can get rid of all the extras but you end up with just a single .m2ts file. No standalone BD players will play back this file without the support structure on the disc. Nero Showtime and PowerDVD can play them back on a PC so if you have an HTPC setup it's a great way to go and save space. I rip and strip all my discs and store them on a server so I can stream them to the HTPC for playback.


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## dyker (Feb 27, 2008)

Meanwhile, if I hook this into my Sage Server and a HD receiver I'll probably have D* MRV before my HR-21s. Devices like this put the power in the consumer's hands. D* becomes just another content vendor. I can switch to a different TV vendor at will and my front end Sage interface and MRV capability remains the same and the family is happy.


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## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

I am interested in this hardware for reasons entirely different than burning to Blu-Ray or DVD... I want a whole home DVR that streams over IP to thin clients. I have the cat-5 already run everywhere, and now I just need an excuse to rip out the coax from everywhere besides my network rack.


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## MIMOTech (Sep 11, 2006)

I am not sure if this was shown in this forum, but the following link has a device that will take HD from component output of any set top box cable or sat or Tivo and record to the computer in full HD.

http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/hd_pvr.html

Keeping a copy as a DVD would be a problem, but keep it on HDD is OK.


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## Elephanthead (Feb 3, 2007)

I think that is what the whole thread is about, if you ignore the thread hijackers.


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## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

The true power of this is that it has the ability to work with other IP streaming HTPC systems besides Windows Media Center. SageTV (already announced support for the Hauppage HD PVR), and MythTV offer a lot of features that Microsoft can't touch.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

jrinck said:


> Just because a signal is digital doesn't mean it can't be copied. If you had a box that simply didn't give two craps about the DMCA, you can do anything with the signal--digital or not.
> 
> I'm surprised there aren't more boxes like this coming out of places like Taiwan and China.


HDCP
If the device doesnt support HD Copy Protection via hdmi, you wont get a picture...


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

In an e-mail sent out to folks who have ordered this box from Hauppauge, the following:

"Unfortunately we have run into a short production delay on the plastic cases but we are expecting to ship your order by the end of the month. If they come in any sooner, they will immediately ship out to you"

So, it looks like a 'slip' until the 1st of June or thereabouts.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

The box is now fully shipping (I was in the 'second tier' of buyers, and according to UPS should have the box by tomorrow).

I've established a thread in the 'Computer Talk' section of DBSTalk.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129932


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

CJTE said:


> HDCP
> If the device doesnt support HD Copy Protection via hdmi, you wont get a picture...


That's what they once said about Macrovision, and we all know how that turned out.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

captain_video said:


> That's what they once said about Macrovision, and we all know how that turned out.


Doing tech support for PS3, I used to get calls from people who would tell me when they tried to play a DVD in the machine, it would "fade in and out".

95% of it was Macrovision.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

captain_video said:


> That's what they once said about Macrovision, and we all know how that turned out.


hehehe 
so many others also, not just MV.
even blue ray is not an issue now.


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