# Too much overscan on HR20



## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

I know there's an HR20 section but I don't know if this problem is related to just the HR20 or also other receivers... or DirecTV itself. I notice that with my HR20-100, there's a lot more overscan than I'm used to (with my old cable box). I run it at 1080i through HDMI to a Panasonic TH-50PZ700U plasma. Being a 1080p plasma, I don't think the TV inserts any overscan of its own with a 1080i digital signal coming in. If I check the menu on the plasma, the "HD Size" parameter where you can select 95% or 100% (no overscan) is grayed out, I assume, because it sees a 1080i signal coming in via HDMI. So I guess it's the HR20 causing the overscan? I'm well versed in formats/ratios and I'm sure the TV is set to "Full" so that's not the problem. It looks like it's just losing about 5% to 10% all the way around. The station logos are sometimes touching the bottom of the screen whereas on my Brighthouse HD cable DVR, the same station showed the entire logo with space underneath. I checked and HDNet isn't running their test pattern any more or I'd check that.

Any place I should be looking? I'm 99.9% sure it isn't the TV as nothing has changed between when I had DimHouse Cable (as I like to call them) versus now: I just unplugged the HDMI cable from the cable DVR and plugged it into the HR20-100. I'd really hate to have to dig out my old VP-30 scaler just to get rid of overscan when I don't need a scaler or any of the audio/video glitches that come with it when I have a 1080i signal going to a 1080p display.

Thanks,
Mike


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

I definitely notice the overscan too. Most notably when the screensaver is on. the D* logo floats past the edge of the screen enough to be noticable. This is with my TV's 'just scan' setting. If I use 16x9, the overscan is even worse.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Just out of curiousity, is the overscan the same with HDMI and component?


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## pgfitzgerald (Nov 29, 2005)

I've been complaining about it for a year. LOL

Mostly it's my TV's fault, but I do agree that it appears to be worse on the HR20 than my old cable box. And mine appears to be offset horizontally as well.

We should at least have, on the HR20, the screen centering menu that's in the H21.

Paul


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## hammond22 (Aug 3, 2007)

Yea, I get the overscan to and it seems the picture is offset to the left too much.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

The biggest thing I've noticed is that on some channels (NBC) the picture is offset. My TV allows me to adjust the screen pixel by pixel in any direction, so I shift mine leftward 5-6 pixels and all is good. Sometimes I need to shift it up to get rid of that annoying audio line (the flashing lines) at the top of the screen.

I use Native=On and generally have success in having things look the way I expect them.


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## bbank (Nov 13, 2006)

I have the exact same Panasonic and I don't think I see any overscan at all. My HR20 is also connected via HDMI. My TV's "HD Size" is set to 100% but I don't believe it is grayed-out. Sorry I'm not at home so I can't verify this. I use Native=On as well. I'll check it out later this evening and post back with additional information if necessary.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I've got overscan issues as well, exactly as you describe with my H and HR receivers on LCD and rear projection both. I never had this with the older receivers, and it seems worse to me on the new HD channels than anywhere else, and worse on my rear projection than on the LCD. Here's another interesting tidbit: OTA through the HR20 shows the overscan problem, but not if I change input to OTA through the TV tuner. Leads me to believe the H and HR boxes are the root of the problem.


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## pgfitzgerald (Nov 29, 2005)

JeffBowser said:


> Here's another interesting tidbit: OTA through the HR20 shows the overscan problem, but not if I change input to OTA through the TV tuner. Leads me to believe the H and HR boxes are the root of the problem.


That's a very interesting observation! I hadn't noticed that, but I'll certainly check to see if that's the case with my equipment when I get home.

Paul


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## Elganja (Jul 16, 2007)

Many TV's have options to use "Full resolution" or "Full Pixel" (for my XBR I had to set it to "Full Pixel" otherwise there would be some over scan). This is NOT the default settings on 99% of the TV's out there... 

Why? For the problem Doug mentioned. Some broadcasts have those annoying lines on the sides or the top/bottom of the TV screen. 

I highly doubt your issue is the HR20 itself. I would first find out why the "100%" option is grayed out and go from there ...


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

Elganja said:


> Many TV's have options to use "Full resolution" or "Full Pixel" (for my XBR I had to set it to "Full Pixel" otherwise there would be some over scan). This is NOT the default settings on 99% of the TV's out there...
> 
> Why? For the problem Doug mentioned. Some broadcasts have those annoying lines on the sides or the top/bottom of the TV screen.
> 
> I highly doubt your issue is the HR20 itself. I would first find out why the "100%" option is grayed out and go from there ...


Just figured it out. I just had to "reboot" the TV and now the 100% size option is available. Seems some other operations I was doing had grayed it and once grayed, it won't come back even if you ensure you are in "Full" format. Now that I have the 100% size selected, it's a little better, but not by much. The HR20 is obviously still overscanning quite a bit and it isn't centered either. I get small slivers of noise on the right and bottom while the left and top have a good portion of the image cropped off. This is definitely an HR20 problem.

Mike


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Problem with your conclusion is, I have a 1st generation tube (rear projection) TV showing this issue, and only if it comes through the H\HR box.



Elganja said:


> Many TV's have options to use "Full resolution" or "Full Pixel" (for my XBR I had to set it to "Full Pixel" otherwise there would be some over scan). This is NOT the default settings on 99% of the TV's out there...
> 
> Why? For the problem Doug mentioned. Some broadcasts have those annoying lines on the sides or the top/bottom of the TV screen.
> 
> I highly doubt your issue is the HR20 itself. I would first find out why the "100%" option is grayed out and go from there ...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

"We" went through all of this back with a CE and the first white GUI IIRC.
My Sony has a "full pixel" setting for 1080i
"Overscan" is a function of the TV and not the H/HR-20. Unless you have and use the full pixel setting, every TV has overscan.
I even had the Sony service tech out during this time since I had problems with the HDNet test pattern.
One quick look in the service menu and a call to Sony [the tech didn't have an HDMI connection from his test box] and "full pixel" is just that.
What [I think] is happening is that the H/HR20 is using all of the screen size while "everybody else" has reduced their size for the older TVs with lots of overscan.
My Sony RPTV [CRT] had a good 10% of overscan, so when I connected my HTPC I had to adjust my 1920 x 1080 desktop down to 1776 x 900 something just to not have the desktop all off the screen.

FWIW: with my TV the full pixel option is only for 1080i and is "grayed out" under the 720p setting.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

mchaney said:


> This is definitely an HR20 problem.
> 
> Mike


In my experience, this is not the case. I have a 46" D92U Sharp and it offers a "full" mode and a "Dot By Dot" mode when receiving 1080i or 1080p. When I'm in full mode, there is some overscan, but when I switch to "Dot By Dot", I get a full image with no noticeable overscan. The same thing happens when I feed 1080p from my Blu-ray player. "Dot By Dot" definitely exposes the full image. I tested it with the DVE test disc and in "Full" mode, there is about 5% overscan. With "Dot By Dot", there's none. This doesn't necessarily prove that the HR-20 output displays the same way, but it does show that the TV properly maps pixel for pixel. Anyway, just my experience.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Interesting VOS. It make sense what you say, and I respect your opinions, but how does this explain my observation that I don't have an overscan problem when viewing direct-tuned OTA ? What am I missing ? The TV doing it's own internal adjustments, perhaps ?



veryoldschool said:


> "We" went through all of this back with a CE and the first white GUI IIRC.
> My Sony has a "full pixel" setting for 1080i
> "Overscan" is a function of the TV and not the H/HR-20. Unless you have and use the full pixel setting, every TV has overscan.
> I even had the Sony service tech out during this time since I had problems with the HDNet test pattern.
> ...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> Interesting VOS. It make sense what you say, and I respect your opinions, but how does this explain my observation that I don't have an overscan problem when viewing direct-tuned OTA ? What am I missing ? The TV doing it's own internal adjustments, perhaps ?


Do you see those bits running around at the top of the 1080i programs off OTA?
I think TexasBrit says they're the closed captioning data.
With "full pixels" set you will see crap that you don't want to.
Overscan has been in TVs from the beginning. Those that know much more about this talk about the "safe zone" etc. that everything will fit within.
I look at this like: imagine if there was a black line at the edge of your TV, How many would be complaining about their crappy TV verse using overscan and then not knowing that you were missing part of the image. The picture would full the complete screen so "it must be right". Only when you start to compare other images of the same source do you realize "what you're missing".
Broadcasters and TV repairmen have know this forever.


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## pgfitzgerald (Nov 29, 2005)

JeffBowser said:


> Interesting VOS. It make sense what you say, and I respect your opinions, but how does this explain my observation that I don't have an overscan problem when viewing direct-tuned OTA ? What am I missing ? The TV doing it's own internal adjustments, perhaps ?


I just thought of something...

My particular TV has service menu adjustments for each and every input, including OTA. It's possible the overscan, h-pos, and v-pos are different for your OTA input than they are for your HR20 input. That would account for what you're seeing.

Paul


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, one thing for certain, it bugs the tar out of me during this football season with the new info bar across the bottom that scrolls scores, down, distance, and field position. One one side, I am missing the part where it says 1st 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and on the other side, I am missing the last 20 yards of the field position indicator.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

That's quite possible, except on my TV there is no user adjustment for overscan. Guess I live with it. Not a killer anyway, just an irritation.



pgfitzgerald said:


> I just thought of something...
> 
> My particular TV has service menu adjustments for each and every input, including OTA. It's possible the overscan, h-pos, and v-pos are different for your OTA input than they are for your HR20 input. That would account for what you're seeing.
> 
> Paul


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

*WARNING* 
Going into your service menu can "brick" your TV if you make the wrong adjustment.
Since you need to have a screen visible, you may not be able to undo your change until you have a new EPROM to install.

You have now been warned.


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## pgfitzgerald (Nov 29, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> *WARNING*
> Going into your service menu can "brick" your TV if you make the wrong adjustment.
> Since you need to have a screen visible, you may not be able to undo your change until you have a new EPROM to install.
> 
> You have now been warned.


Thanks VOS. I should have mentioned that. 

Paul


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> Well, one thing for certain, it bugs the tar out of me during this football season with the new info bar across the bottom that scrolls scores, down, distance, and field position. One one side, I am missing the part where it says 1st 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and on the other side, I am missing the last 20 yards of the field position indicator.


Jeff,

Stupid question, but what channel broadcasts their games with that formatting on the bottom of the screen? I'd be curious to try it out with my TV in the "full" and "dot by dot" modes.

Rob


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Whoever does the current 1PM NFL football games, I never remember call letters...... ABC, CBS, NBC ? One of them. Not Fox, not ESPN, I know that much.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> Whoever does the current 1PM NFL football games, I never remember call letters...... ABC, CBS, NBC ? One of them. Not Fox, not ESPN, I know that much.


I bet you're good about remembering commercials too :lol:


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> Whoever does the current 1PM NFL football games, I never remember call letters...... ABC, CBS, NBC ? One of them. Not Fox, not ESPN, I know that much.


Thanks, I'll check it out on Sunday afternoon.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Especially if it involves scantily clad ladies.....



veryoldschool said:


> I bet you're good about remembering commercials too :lol:


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## gizzorge (Jul 31, 2007)

That's a good warning. I thought I screwed up my TV because I adjusted the overscan. I scheduled a service call ($250) to fix it, and ended up fixing it myself... just a little tweak here and there. However, I really wish I left it alone so I didn't have to go through all the drama.


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## mexican-bum (Feb 26, 2006)

I had terrible overscan on my sony xbr 960 crt(really awesome pic on this tv by the way) but it ended up being the tv and corrected in service menu.


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## captdusty (Jul 13, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> Well, one thing for certain, it bugs the tar out of me during this football season with the new info bar across the bottom that scrolls scores, down, distance, and field position. One one side, I am missing the part where it says 1st 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and on the other side, I am missing the last 20 yards of the field position indicator.


Same here. And I'm sure it's the HR20 doing it. My ISF'ed set never had this issue with the HR10-250.


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

captdusty said:


> Same here. And I'm sure it's the HR20 doing it. My ISF'ed set never had this issue with the HR10-250.


In my case, the HR20 is definitely doing *some* overscan. Even when I set my TV to pixel-by-pixel mode with zero overscan, there is still some overscan... and the picture is not centered. Can't be anything but the HR20 at that point.

Mike


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Thank you - in all this talk ofoverscan theory, the one overriding point I was trying to make is something is different with this HR20, and even with the new channels, as compared to what I had been seeing before. Perhaps it is a combination of a lot of things, and the HR20 is just a trigger, but something is definately different.



captdusty said:


> Same here. And I'm sure it's the HR20 doing it. My ISF'ed set never had this issue with the HR10-250.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

mchaney said:


> In my case, the HR20 is definitely doing *some* overscan. Even when I set my TV to pixel-by-pixel mode with zero overscan, there is still some overscan... and the picture is not centered. Can't be anything but the HR20 at that point.
> 
> Mike


It could be the HR-20 and how it interacts with your TV. Back in the day when DirecTV came out with their 1st HD SAT receiver (the RCA DTC-100), it had significant problems with certain HDTVs. They eventually updated it's software to include a centering feature. As for my HR-20 on my Sharp LCD and Sony projector, everything looks centered and does not appear to be overscanned. I'm really curious to catch a game this weekend so there can be a common frame of reference.

Rob


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

captdusty said:


> Same here. And I'm sure it's the HR20 doing it. My ISF'ed set never had this issue with the HR10-250.


Which set do you have?


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## uscboy (Sep 5, 2006)

How does anyone know they have overscan by the HR20?

My point is, if your TV has various modes of overscan like my 46V2500 Sony Bravia 
does (1080p set), and you set it at the max (Full Pixel in Sony's terms), how do 
you know there's "more picture" it's not showing?

I see the single line of garbage on some feeds - bothers me less than having to 
scale the picture and (to some degree) degrade picture quality by choosing some 
amount of overscan. So, I leave mine on Full Pixel and have my HR20 set to 
output everything at 1080i... can't stand Native because all the SD channels force 
the Guide into 480i and it looks horrible... plus, I can't tell the difference on 720p 
channels at 1080i versus 720p since the LCD TV I have just deinterlaces everything anyway.

So, I assume on Full Pixel and the HR20 on 1080i that I see as much picture as possible.
If I weren't, then there wouldn't be the line of garbage on the screen - the HR20 would
just overscan that and it wouldn't show up. I think that a STB via HDMI should pass digital
pictures at pixel-for-pixel - why would the STB overscan in the first place?


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

uscboy said:


> How does anyone know they have overscan by the HR20?
> 
> My point is, if your TV has various modes of overscan like my 46V2500 Sony Bravia
> does (1080p set), and you set it at the max (Full Pixel in Sony's terms), how do
> you know there's "more picture" it's not showing?


I can tell because when I put my VP30 scaler in the loop and dial in underscan, I can bring back the missing parts. On mine, it might not be so much an overscan issue but an off-center issue. The HR20 appears to shift the picture down and to the left, leaving some noise lines on the top and right and some missing picture on the bottom and left. I need to do a little more experimenting with the scaler to determine exactly how much because I don't have any test patterns recorded on the HR20 since HDNet decided to drop them. Kinda hard to tell when all you can do is freeze and look at photographic content.

Mike


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

uscboy said:


> How does anyone know they have overscan by the HR20?
> 
> My point is, if your TV has various modes of overscan like my 46V2500 Sony Bravia
> does (1080p set), and you set it at the max (Full Pixel in Sony's terms), how do
> you know there's "more picture" it's not showing?


Short of having an overscan test pattern like the one on the Digital Video Essentials DVD, it would be difficult to tell. Maybe we should all take pictures of our TVs on CNBC-HD or something to see what everyone is getting. It think that would be a good channel because it's so busy with all that info on the screen and it's goes way out to the corners. I'll get some shots tonight.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

FWIW I just compared my HR20 and my old HD Tivo. On ESPN you can find a reference point on all four sides and the HR20 actually has a line or two less horizontal overscan than the Tivo.

peace . . .


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

tim99 said:


> FWIW I just compared my HR20 and my old HD Tivo. On ESPN you can find a reference point on all four sides and the HR20 actually has a line or two less horizontal overscan than the Tivo.
> 
> peace . . .


Which is to say that the HR-20 shows more picture? Just want to make sure I understood you correctly. On a test pattern, more overscan means less picture.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Rob55 said:


> Which is to say that the HR-20 shows more picture? Just want to make sure I understood you correctly. On a test pattern, more overscan means less picture.


I'm not sure a DVD test pattern will show whether it's the TV or the HR-20, but:

If anybody wants to reread my posting about using the HDNet test pattern, you can find out that it's not the HR-20 since there is an overscan test pattern.
This is what I used on my Bravia XBR2, set to FULL pixel and had ZERO overscan [after the Sony tech left].
Every resolution and input can give you another setting these days with the TVs.
HR-20 > HDMI > Sony set to full pixel and 1080i = zero overscan.
http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8381&d=1180552338

Here is this overscan issue related to the guide:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=88990


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm not sure a DVD test pattern will show whether it's the TV or the HR-20, but:


A DVD test pattern won't show if it's the HR-20. I only suggested that it'll show how the TV reacts to the DVD player and the test pattern it's outputting. This would potentially show issues with the TV if it showed the test pattern with a some degree of overscan other than 0. Ideally, an overscan test pattern on the HR-20 (as you mentioned) would be a good test, but to my knowledge, HD-Net no longer broadcasts their test patterns. Then again, I could be wrong about the HD-Net patterns as I haven't looked for them in quite a while.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

Here's 2 images I took of Kudlow & Company on CNBC-HD (no I don't watch the show, but it seemed like a good test as it has recognizeable characteristics close to the edge of the screen. It was on from 7:00 to 7:30 or 8:00). My HR-20 is set to 1080i (which the TV is deinterlacing and displaying @ 1080p). BTW, please forgive the barrel distortion in the image, it's the lense of the camera, not the TV.

This one is in the Sharp's "Stretch" mode. Note the CNBC logo in the left vetical pillar and the HD+ logo on the right. Also, the image seems reasonably centered.








This one is in the Sharp's "Dot By Dot" mode. Note how you can see past the bottom of the ticker and how much farther from the edges the logos are. Also note that the 4:3 image is shorter than the pillar bars on either side of it.








I'd be curious to hear how this program looks on the TVs of those experiencing too much overscan or centering issues (again, you can catch it on 355 @ 7:00).

Rob


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Rob55 said:


> A DVD test pattern won't show if it's the HR-20. I only suggested that it'll show how the TV reacts to the DVD player and the test pattern it's outputting. This would potentially show issues with the TV if it showed the test pattern with a some degree of overscan other than 0. Ideally, an overscan test pattern on the HR-20 (as you mentioned) would be a good test, but to my knowledge, HD-Net no longer broadcasts their test patterns. Then again, I could be wrong about the HD-Net patterns as I haven't looked for them in quite a while.


The HDNet test pattern was @ 6:45 AM EDT Sunday from the last I heard.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The HDNet test pattern was @ 6:45 AM EDT Sunday from the last I heard.


Cool, I'll have to check it out. I haven't looked in a long time. Thanks.


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## Runch Machine (Nov 20, 2005)

The next HDNET Test pattern is on OCT 20 at 5:30AM Central Time. The guide shows a block with nothing in it because it is too small to fit the title. Once you select it to record it will show the title.


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## B Newt (Aug 12, 2007)

What does overscan look like???


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Overscan is where the picture as broadcast is overscanned by the TV, so parts are actually outside the viewable region on all sides. (Just like a movie in a theatre is masked, so you don't see the real film edges.)

In the old days, as tubes warmed up or as they got older, they picture size would drift. So an area was declared to be the safe region, that part of the picture almost certain to always be visible on every TV, unless very horribly adjusted.

Now in the era of digital TV, more of the picture is usable if the TV overscans less. Ideally, you'd like to have cable channels use the full picture and the TVs not overscan at all, but that isn't really practical yet.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

I get a bit of the overscan when I use Component. There is a considerable difference between my HDMI and Component.


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

Rob55 said:


> Here's 2 images I took of Kudlow & Company on CNBC-HD (no I don't watch the show, but it seemed like a good test as it has recognizeable characteristics close to the edge of the screen.


The overscan problems I've noted are all no local HD (via satellite, not OTA) channels. I suspect there is a by-channel difference. Maybe the difference is in the source and where D* is getting their feeds rather than the HR20?

Mike


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I have also definately noticed a channel by channel difference.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> I have also definately noticed a channel by channel difference.


 Really? Wow, I can't say that I've seen anything like that. Whether I'm watching the HD locals (out of NY), the Discovery channels, HD-Net or whatever, they all seem pretty consistent.


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## jwebb1970 (Oct 3, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> Whoever does the current 1PM NFL football games, I never remember call letters...... ABC, CBS, NBC ? One of them. Not Fox, not ESPN, I know that much.


The CBS HD NFL games are what you speak of (info on extreme l/r sides)


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

jwebb1970 said:


> The CBS HD NFL games are what you speak of (info on extreme l/r sides)


I'm really curious to see what this will look like this weekend. I'll tune in to whatever CBS-HD games I can get here.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

What a dummy. I said that completely backwards didn't I?

Yes what I mean is that the HR20 shows just ever so slightly more picture.



Rob55 said:


> Which is to say that the HR-20 shows more picture? Just want to make sure I understood you correctly. On a test pattern, more overscan means less picture.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

tim99 said:


> Yes what I mean is that the HR20 shows just ever so slightly more picture.


Tim,

I like the quote about being a PVR user since the late 1900s. I know what you mean, but at first glance it looked like you've been a PVR user for a hundred years.

Rob


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## Ely (Sep 1, 2007)

I have also noticed overscanning issues on my Sony Bravia since the launch of the new HD Channels, I'm missing part of the picture on the edges of the screen, it is not a lot but I'm missing a bit, the problem becomes worse when some old programs are stretched out to fit the screen ( History Channel ) and then these programs contain subtitles or other text on the button of the screen.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

A little misdirection because our brains aren't tuned into the term '1900's' yet.

We've gotten pretty acclimated but remember the very first time you saw someone pause live TV? It was just the coolest thing wasn't it?

peace . . .



Rob55 said:


> Tim,
> 
> I like the quote about being a PVR user since the late 1900s. I know what you mean, but at first glance it looked like you've been a PVR user for a hundred years.
> 
> Rob


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

tim99 said:


> We've gotten pretty acclimated but remember the very first time you saw someone pause live TV? It was just the coolest thing wasn't it?
> 
> peace . . .


I remember when I got the Sony SAT-T60 when it 1st came out. It was absolutely the coolest thing being able to pause live TV (as well as all the other things you could do with it). I can't imagine TV without a DVR.


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## PatentBoy (Feb 14, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> The biggest thing I've noticed is that on some channels (NBC) the picture is offset. My TV allows me to adjust the screen pixel by pixel in any direction, so I shift mine leftward 5-6 pixels and all is good. Sometimes I need to shift it up to get rid of that annoying audio line (the flashing lines) at the top of the screen.
> 
> I use Native=On and generally have success in having things look the way I expect them.


My Samsung CRT HD TV had overscan. Set to Native=On and the overscan went away.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Now I find that very interesting - I have not tried native on for my rear-projection in over a year, I may have to revisit that.



PatentBoy said:


> My Samsung CRT HD TV had overscan. Set to Native=On and the overscan went away.


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## Mind Voyager (Sep 22, 2007)

Howdy,

I can only attest for the HR20-700 at with a 720p display for sure, but I'm fairly confident that all overscan issues being seen with HD material are either the television sets, or the content being sent. If you believe me, you can stop reading now. If you don't, or if you would like to fall alseep, here are the details of the tests I did.

Equipment used
-HR20-700 connected to a VP-50 via HDMI and Component. VP-50 connected to a Sharp XV-Z2000 720p DLP Projector via HDMI/DVI. VP-50 configured to give a 1:1 pixel map.
-Sencore video generator connected to the antenna input of the HR20, sending an ATSC signal (both 720p and 1080i)

Test 1:
Set video generator to 720p. HR20-700 has 720p checked and has Native Resolution on, so it should "pass through" all signal info.

Result with HDMI:
All pixels show on screen, and all horizontal resolution visible (no test pattern for vertical resolution, unfortunately)

Result with Component:
2 pixels missing off of right side. Some horizontal resolution lost
---
Test 2:
Set video generator to 1080i. HR20-700 has 1080i checked and has Native Resolution on, so it should "pass through" all signal info. VP-50 will "side-convert" 1080i to 720p.

Result with HDMI:
All pixels show on screen, looks as if all horizontal resolution is there (can't be completely sure since I only can display 720p)

Result with Component:
2 pixels missing off of left side. Looks like some horizontal resolution is lost
---
Test 3:
Set video generator to 1080i. HR20-700 has 1080i unchecked and Native Resolution on, so the HR20-700 is "side-converting" 1080i-720p

Result with HDMI:
All pixels show on screen, but flickering on all horizontal lines (deinterlacing issue). Looks as if all horizontal resolution is there

Result with Component:
1 pixel missing off of left side, 2 pixels missing on right. Flickering on all horizontal lines. Appears as if all horizontal resolution is there (this one kinda surprised me).
************************
Conclusions that can be made for sure:
-When using an HR20-700 via an HDMI connection, all 720p OTA content is 1:1 matched, no overscan
-When using an HR20-700 via a Component connection, 720P OTA content will be missing 2 pixels (EXTREMELY SLIGHT overscan). Will also be losing some horizontal resolution.

Conclusions that I am confident in, but can't make for sure since I don't have a 1080p set.
-When using an HR20-700 via an HDMI-connection, all 1080i OTA content is 1:1 matched, no overscan.
-When using an HR20-700 via a component connection, may be missing a pixel or two (EXTREMELY SLIGHT overscan). Might also be losing some resolution

The biggest things missing from my conclusions are whether this is the same for the HR20-100 or not, and whether or not this is the same for Sat signals. I would imagine the HR20-100 would behave the same, and my GUESS would be that the sat signals are processed the same way. If nothing else, we know that the HR20-700 is capable of completely displaying the signal it is given over HDMI.

Small note on component at 1080i. When I plugged my signal generator straight into my VP-50 and sent a 1080i signal, I was missing one pixel on the left. I would assume this has to do with how the VP-50 is turning 1080i into 720p. Based on my 720p results, I still believe that the HR20-700 is dropping a pixel or two when going component, but I can't be 100% positive at 1080i.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I fell asleep.... well actually I believe you.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

jwebb1970 said:


> The CBS HD NFL games are what you speak of (info on extreme l/r sides)


Ok, so I watched some of the Cowboy/Patriot game yesterday on CBS (I tuned in around 4:30 or so) and could not see evidence of what is described above. For starters (at least on the WCBS-NY feed I was watching), there was no info to the extreme left and right side of the image. All (or most) of the on-screen graphics seemed to be configured for proper viewing with either a 4:3 or 16:9 screen. Some of the ticker at the bottom of the screen started to the right of the 4:3 safe area which was visible in 16:9, but it wasn't anywhere near the edge of the screen. Otherwise, everything seem properly centered both horizontally and vertically. In addition, the stretch mode on my Sharp LC-46D92U (1080p) allowed for proper display of the image. The dot-by-dot mode allowed for a full 1:1 pixel map of the image but the stretch mode was completely acceptable. Just my 2 cents.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I didn't watch any TV this Sunday. I started to watch one football game, it was in SD, and my family wanted to go out. Saturday we had obligations all day and most of the night. Guess I will revisit next weekend. I'm starting to think my particular issue is just the combination of my TV and the way I connect it. I'm getting the itch to go 73" DLP, anyway. Those sets have HDMI connections, maybe that will be my ticket.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> I'm getting the itch to go 73" DLP, anyway. Those sets have HDMI connections, maybe that will be my ticket.


I'm sorry, I must have missed if you mentioned if you were using component or HDMI. My connection is HDMI for the record.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I have a first generation HD set, there was no HDMI back then. This one is component only.



Rob55 said:


> I'm sorry, I must have missed if you mentioned if you were using component or HDMI. My connection is HDMI for the record.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> I have a first generation HD set, there was no HDMI back then. This one is component only.


My 1st HD set was a Pioneer Elite Pro610HD CRT rear projector. In it's day it was a great set, but as far as HD is concerned, it doesn't (or wouldn't) hold up to todays sets. The thing would only handle 480p and 1080i but not 720p. The thing had so much overscan, that 2.35:1 movies looked more like 2:1 ratio movies. I gladly gave up the great black levels that TV was capable of for something with better geometry, edge focus and was convergence free. Have you tried to find out if you can get into the service menu of your TV to adjust vertical and horizontal size and centering?


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

No, I haven't, but I am getting close to doing something. The TV is not that old, I'm not quite ready to give up on it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> No, I haven't, but I am getting close to doing something. The TV is not that old, I'm not quite ready to give up on it.


For the brave of heart: http://www.bruzziforum.com/vbf/forumdisplay.php?f=5


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> For the brave of heart: http://www.bruzziforum.com/vbf/forumdisplay.php?f=5


Lots of fun stuff.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Oh boy. I predict trouble in my house tonight :lol: :lol: 

Thanks !


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## Larry_Rymal (Jan 15, 2006)

pgfitzgerald said:


> .We should at least have, on the HR20, the screen centering menu that's in the H21....


 Well, that's not all that it is cranked up to be. On my H20, screen centering BROKE... I have a H20 - 100 with the 0X2021 software.

Other than that, everything is working great with all the HD channels coming in wonderfully. I had an horizontal offset toward the left to occur. Not sure when.... However, I just noticed it with CNN-HD 202 and went to the centering menu. All the options are there, just that it doesn't respond with the SELECT button. I have asked around, and have yet to find anyone else with the problem.


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## Rob55 (Sep 14, 2006)

Larry_Rymal said:


> Well, that's not all that it is cranked up to be. On my H20, screen centering BROKE... I have a H20 - 100 with the 0X2021 software.


It's possible that the centering function may not work will all outputs or resolutions.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I did notice that my bedroom TV has more overscan than my living room one.


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## robnalex (Oct 12, 2007)

I just added 2 HR20s this week and am still running an HR10-250 to my Panasonic TH-50PHD6UY.

I've noticed the overscan on both HR20s, which are connected by component. One of the first programs I set to record was the HDNet Test pattern, which I keep on every box. When I have some time, here is how I'll adjust the overscan (The Panny has easy to use adjustments for size and position):

> First I'll probably move (position) the picture around to get it reasonably centered.

> Then I'll resize the picture down, a couple of ticks at a time on each side, until I have the same amount of underscan on each side.

> Then I'll resize up, a couple ticks at a time on each side 'till there's no overscan.

> Then I'll use the test pattern to check and adjust the geometry- specifically to be sure that the circles on the pattern are completely round, always adjusting up so that I don't create underscan.

> FWIW, one of the new HR20s is now on an input that was previously used and adjusted this way for an HR10-250 connected by component, so this would seem to indicate that the HR20 is producing more overscan than previous boxes.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Overscan is not a function of the HR-20, but the display it's connected to.
When I set my TV to zero overscan [full pixels in the user menu], the HDNet test pattern is centered and complete.


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## robnalex (Oct 12, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> When I set my TV to zero overscan [full pixels in the user menu], the HDNet test pattern is centered and complete.


Nice that your TV has that option!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

robnalex said:


> Nice that your TV has that option!


Post #39 here has a link to what the test pattern looks like with zero overscan.


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## bt-rtp (Dec 30, 2005)

Something I discovered today with the HDnet recorded test pattern. Background information: the test pattern is 1080i format and my HR20-700 has native mode on. 

After I adjusted the overscan on my Panasonic commerical plasma monitor, I noticed that the adjustments only effected the 1080i sources. I discovered that I also had to to make the adjustments again for 720p mode as well. 

For 720p mode, I used a HD college football game and almost the same settings as 1080i.

Lastly, my horizontal and vertical positions did not need to be adjusted. I only had to reduce the horizontal and vertical sizes for both 720p and 1080i modes.

Looks perfect now.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bt-rtp said:


> Something I discovered today with the HDnet recorded test pattern. Background information: the test pattern is 1080i format and my HR20-700 has native mode on.
> 
> After I adjusted the overscan on my Panasonic commerical plasma monitor, I noticed that the adjustments only effected the 1080i sources. I discovered that I also had to to make the adjustments again for 720p mode as well.
> 
> ...


Good to hear you're "set".
To get the test pattern for 720p, you can change from native on to off and then let the HR-20 scale it to 720p by changing the resolution [for the test]. For that matter you could also change it to 480i/p for those adjustments too.


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## bt-rtp (Dec 30, 2005)

Thank you veryoldschool

I adjusted the overscan for 480p and 720p modes on my plasma as you described by setting native mode to off in the HR20. Once I was all done making my adjustments, I set native mode back on. 

I found that these adjustments made a really big difference. About a half a inch gained on each side of the display.

WOW!


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## ashwilli (Aug 11, 2007)

I used to have a Sony Sat HD200 recently replaced by HR-20 100...both going component into a Mits WS55311 RPTV over component.

The old Sony SatHD200 never had logos/CBS football scrolls cutting off slightly on edges of screen.

Since going to HR-20 100 I have noticed that some content on some channels is cutoff. In particular a few OAR movies on TNTHD and especially noticeable during CBS HD football broadscasts as mentioned by the thread starter.

I wonder what the HR20 is doing differently than the old Sony HD200. This is only slightly annoying...but I did have a calibrator verify that my "overscan" settings in the Mits service menu are appropriate (currently 4%). I wonder why a recommended % would still produce cropped content on some HD channels.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

ashwilli said:


> I used to have a Sony Sat HD200 recently replaced by HR-20 100...both going component into a Mits WS55311 RPTV over component.
> 
> The old Sony SatHD200 never had logos/CBS football scrolls cutting off slightly on edges of screen.
> 
> ...


"So far" I've only seen this on new HD channels [like Discovery] that are upscaling a SD show for their HD channel.
BTW: I moved from my SAT HD300 to the H20 without any issues and now have H/HR 20/21 that all show the same size image.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I still have the overscan on my main set despite all I have done. Am currently searching for a GOOD RPTV "mechanic" Your observations about the HR20 are very interesting to me, as I still haven't given up totally the notion that the H and HR series boxes have something to do with this.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> I still have the overscan on my main set despite all I have done. Am currently searching for a GOOD RPTV "mechanic" Your observations about the HR20 are very interesting to me, as I still haven't given up totally the notion that the H and HR series boxes have something to do with this.


HDNet test pattern shows "otherwise".


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I finally captured that pattern, it showed my set has some really bad overscan. Argh. I hope it can be adjusted, I am not prepared to buy another big screen at this time.


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## ashwilli (Aug 11, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> HDNet test pattern shows "otherwise".


Thanks for your input veryoldschool...unfortunately from your signature I can see you use HDMI, so your observations are irrelevant for us folks using component inputs.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

If I compare a local HD signal via satellite to OTA, the overscan is a bit worse (HDMI or component). It is there on both, however (and I haven't found the magic key to the service menu on my Vizio P42HD).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

ashwilli said:


> Thanks for your input veryoldschool...unfortunately from your signature I can see you use HDMI, so your observations are irrelevant for us folks using component inputs.


Both component and HDMI look the same on my TV.
While you may think it irrelevant, I'd say the connection used is irrelevant, from my observations with using both.


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## aramus8 (Nov 21, 2006)

My television has two options for 16x9. The first does add minor over scan while the second eliminates it completely according to the HDNet test pattern. I use the over scan option on purpose as I like things slightly bigger in the picture. I guess I don't understand the complaints about over scan unless it is dramatically over scanned which would be a problem with the television and not the HR20.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

aramus8 said:


> My television has two options for 16x9. The first does add minor over scan while the second eliminates it completely according to the HDNet test pattern. I use the over scan option on purpose as I like things slightly bigger in the picture. I guess I don't understand the complaints about over scan unless it is dramatically over scanned which would be a problem with the television and not the HR20.


Because you have the options [mine has three or four] in the user menu, you know, but for those that don't have the settings in the user menu, they don't.
Most TVs have it in the service menu, so most users have no idea of it.


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## rynberg (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm beginning to wonder if this is a problem only effecting certain units. My HR20 and H20 both have more overscan than my Samsung TS-360 does, all connected using HDMI-DVI. My CRT RPTV has about 5% overscan in 1080i mode, which should not be enough to cut off station ID bugs and score tickers. There are some channels where the "D" in "HD" is completely cut off. This is not right and is not a fault of the TV.


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## SatNoob (Aug 16, 2007)

Hmmm my 46" Sony Wega big screen HDTV everything is centered perfectly. No overscan at all, screen saver never leaves the edge.


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## Sport73 (Sep 28, 2006)

I have a Sony 60A2020 SXRD set and the overscan from the HR20 is pronounced and problematic. The set only offers correction in the OTHER direction (making the image larger and increasing overscan, presumably for PC inputs). The issue does not seem to affect my PS3, 360 nor Apple TV in the same manner, and I don't recall it being an issue before the HR20.

Does anyone know of a method to adjust the 60A2020? Or is there something in the works for the HR20 to address this issue.


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

On my Sony 40v3000 i used HDnet calibration to measure over scan and was able to get it very close by changing setting to full pixel,but when watching TNT it would show a white strip on the right side.I have it hooked up to HR-20 HDMI native on.ON the H-20 in the bedroom i noticed that you can move the picture in four directions.I think i can move it on the tv if i can get into the service menu,some day i will have to call Sony and see if they can talk me through it.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

You might ask the same question at our sister site: www.avsforum.com


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

As far as I have observed, the HR20 outputs the full picture without any overscan whatsoever. I know this because sometimes the originating network's video signal will have one or two lines of non-picture video at the top or the side of the video frame and the HR20 delivers those lines at the very edge of the video frame, forcing me to set my TV to overscan to get rid of the lines. I can also see the full HDNET test pattern (as seen in post 39 of this thread) from edge to edge on my HR20.

As others have pointed out in this thread, overscaning is something that many TVs do. If you have an overscan problem, it's because of the way you have your TV set (or because your TV cannot be set to display the full video signal without any overscaning) and not because of the HR20.


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

Why blame the HR20 if some TV sets _don't_ experience the problem? Cause and effect relationships remain the same throughout.

Both of my Samsung LCD HDTVs - set in "just scan" mode are centered and have no apparent overscan. One is receiving from a "700" - the other from a "100".


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

It's not the HR receivers fault, on my tv there is limited things i can do in the user menu. If i want perfection i need to get into the service menu,i just made some adjustments and i am not a perfectionist so close enough.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

I have a bit of overscan and finally (with some help from Google) figured out how to get into the service menu of my Vizio. There are only a few adjustments available and overscan isn't one of them.

Anyway, Bruzzi's forum has a lot of info on accessing service menus (just don't blame me if you end up with a brick).


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

Well one thing i can say is over scan isn't a problem unless you are aware of it.


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