# For those interested in building an HTPC



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

With streaming from the HR2X to a computer and the HDPC 20 becoming a reality some people may be interested in building a Home Theater PC. I wanted to point folks to an excellent thread over at this site's, sister forum, AVS Forum.

I've built many, many PCs over the years. It's very easy to do and can save you hundreds of dollars over purchasing a pre-built box. You can build a very nice Home Theater computer, including a huge (1TB) hard drive for around $700.

I'd be happy to help anyone with questions.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Ken S said:


> With streaming from the HR2X to a computer and the HDPC 20 becoming a reality some people may be interested in building a Home Theater PC. I wanted to point folks to an excellent thread over at this site's, sister forum, AVS Forum.
> 
> I've built many, many PCs over the years. It's very easy to do and can save you hundreds of dollars over purchasing a pre-built box. You can build a very nice Home Theater computer, including a huge (1TB) hard drive for around $700.
> 
> I'd be happy to help anyone with questions.


These have always fascinated me...and I hope to construct one myself some time perhaps late this year.

Thanks for sharing!


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

I am very satisfied with the HTPC I recently built. It has an AMD 5000+ CPU, 780g chipset motherboard, an HD USB tuner stick, 500 GB hard drive, LG Blu Ray and HD DVD combo drive, Vista Home premium. HDMI output. It runs quiet and sleeps nicely. Can be built for well under $1000.


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

Ken S said:


> With streaming from the HR2X to a computer and the HDPC 20 becoming a reality some people may be interested in building a Home Theater PC. I wanted to point folks to an excellent thread over at this site's, sister forum, AVS Forum.
> 
> I've built many, many PCs over the years. It's very easy to do and can save you hundreds of dollars over purchasing a pre-built box. You can build a very nice Home Theater computer, including a huge (1TB) hard drive for around $700.
> 
> I'd be happy to help anyone with questions.


I haven't bought a computer since 1988, I just keep replacing the motherboard and processor, I still have a floppy from my 386.:hurah:


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

So I'm a nOOb with HTPCs and want to be clear on "the point" of HTPCs...is it mainly because it is a "one-box" solution? With a Bluray drive installed I could then:

-watch Bluray movies
-surf the net
-watch downloaded content
-watch tv (with an HDPC 20 of course)
-play games
-burn dvds
-view pics and listen to music
-other computer activities

Get a wireless keyboard/mouse and I'm all set to do all these things on my tv, right?

If the HR20 ever gets to where Mediashare works well and I already have another PC on the network than I'd already have:

-Watch downloadable content
-See pics/listen to music
-Watch tv (with an HR20 instead of an HDPC 20)


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## chrpai (Oct 27, 2007)

psweig said:


> I haven't bought a computer since 1988, I just keep replacing the motherboard and processor, I still have a floppy from my 386.:hurah:


BS. While I don't doubt that you've built computers and reused components... That just doesn't fly. ATX and PCI wasn't out for another 6-7 years. Nothing from that machine would be useful today in any meaningful way.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

pdawg17 said:


> So I'm a nOOb with HTPCs and want to be clear on "the point" of HTPCs...is it mainly because it is a "one-box" solution? With a Bluray drive installed I could then:
> 
> -watch Bluray movies
> -surf the net
> ...


pdawg,

Yes, several motherboards are now coming out with respectable graphics on board and HDMI output. It's also possible to use a remote control for many of the functions.

There are also cases now that look much more like A/V equipment than a computer.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

To join in the discussion, this is a personal area of interest for me, and a place that I take a lot of pride in

Cases: There are some amazing cases out there for HTPCs. For me personally I have a case with a VFD, and the IR sensor embedded in the case (http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/p_contents.php?pno=lc20&area=usa). I really like the Silverstone cases, and they have a lot of great designs.

Cooling: Smaller is not always better. Understanding how to build a system that is cool without being noisy is a nightmare sometimes.

Fans: Bigger is often better. Large fans at low speeds cool well and produce little noise.

Graphics: The new AMD 780G chipset is a rockstar. Many boards have no fans, and with HDMI and HDCP built in they are primed for an HTPC. If you do have to use graphics card my rule is no fan. They are notoriously noisy, and even BluRay playback doesn't call for the graphics beasts that many people put in PCs.

Disks: I go for overkill. My latest system has a pair of mirrored 80GB hard drives for the OS, and a pair of 750GB hard drives striped for 1.5TB of media storage.

Optical Drives: Go with BluRay now that it has won out. It's not rocket science.

Please feel free to reach out to me with any questions you have about HTPCs. I love them, nd love building my own.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> You can build a very nice Home Theater computer, including a huge (1TB) hard drive for around $700.


!rolling

I fell for that almost two years ago. I know prices have come down and everything has gotten faster, but it's a "sucker play". :lol:

I started with "I think I can do this for about $600-$800". I think I stopped at around $1,000 and then got the HR20s.

"Very nice" is a relative term and all my relatives know by now I'm crazy. :eek2:


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> !rolling
> 
> I fell for that almost two years ago. I know prices have come down and everything has gotten faster, but it's a "sucker play". :lol:
> 
> ...


VOS,

It really is possible nowadays. Check out the thread I linked to and look at the mATX models. You just have to remember you're building an HTPC and not a World of Warcraft/FPS monster box.

I should also admit though that my "main" computer which I built includes 4 Raptors in a 3Ware RAID 10 array and all in all ran me well over $4,000.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> VOS,
> 
> It really is possible nowadays. Check out the thread I linked to and look at the mATX models. You just have to remember you're building an HTPC and not a World of Warcraft/FPS monster box.
> 
> I should also admit though that my "main" computer which I built includes 4 Raptors in a 3Ware RAID 10 array and all in all ran me well over *$4,000*.


What is possible and what we end up with... :lol:

Yes, it can be done [as I "almost" did it two years ago].
By the time Bill Gates gets "his money", I bet most will go over [as I did].

I think the "real point" is that now there are computers that you don't need to sit in front of and can sit back grab a remote and have "them" entertain you.

[BTW this was mostly a "joke" for you to enjoy as we've both "been there".]

The only "warning" I would pass along is to get a price list break down before you start as with most things it's just "one or two more things" [that you didn't realize at the beginning].


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I did the best I could, starting with a discounted, near clearance PC which included Vista, disk, nice CPU, then added Nvidia 8800GT, power supply, and more ram and hit $700. If I add tuners and Blu-ray, I'll just be at $1,000. I'll have to check out that thread to see if I could have significantly saved.

(Oh and only 320gb disk.)

Lets see:
1TB - $225 (best deal I can imagine these days)
Nvidia 8800GT - $160
Powersupply for the above - $70
Case - $30
4GB ram - $100 (though sometimes deals can be found)
Vista - $109

That only leaves about $100 for MB, CPU, DVD, tuners. No Blu-ray. hmmm...

Cheers,
Tom


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> I did the best I could, starting with a discounted, near clearance PC which included Vista, disk, nice CPU, then added Nvidia 8800GT, power supply, and more ram and hit $700. If I add tuners and Blu-ray, I'll just be at $1,000. I'll have to check out that thread to see if I could have significantly saved.
> 
> (Oh and only 320gb disk.)
> 
> ...


And what about all of the fans?
That's where I needed to get the darn thing quiet enough to have it in the same room with me while I watched TV. :lol:


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Yeah, I assumed that the MB/CPU and the case would have some of the necessary fans. And that something included a power cord. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> I did the best I could, starting with a discounted, near clearance PC which included Vista, disk, nice CPU, then added Nvidia 8800GT, power supply, and more ram and hit $700. If I add tuners and Blu-ray, I'll just be at $1,000. I'll have to check out that thread to see if I could have significantly saved.
> 
> (Oh and only 320gb disk.)
> 
> ...


Tom, check the thread...you'll be surprised 

1TB - $189 (Western Digital)
No need for a separate graphics card.
Case/Fans/PSU Very nice one included with some of the Antec HT cases $90
4GB RAM - 65 (but really, 2GB would suffice for most HTPC apps)
Mobo - 90
Vista - 109 (transferring a license from an old XP computer you're retiring would be a reasonable substitute if you're just going to run TVersity though.)
CPU - 90 (Comes with cooler).

There's also an interesting device out...if you just want a media server www.popcornhour.com holds some real promise.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> What is possible and what we end up with... :lol:
> 
> Yes, it can be done [as I "almost" did it two years ago].
> By the time Bill Gates gets "his money", I bet most will go over [as I did].
> ...


Hey...it gets even uglier when I go car shopping.

Here's my method for pricing machines. I start with one site like NewEgg and put EVERYTHING I need in the cart. I then start shopping each item and about four or five preferred vendors I have (Amazon, MWave, Provantage, ZipZoomFly, etc.). As I find a better price I remove it from the newegg basket. Using three vendors on that $700 box saved me about $75.


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

psweig said:


> I haven't bought a computer since 1988, I just keep replacing the motherboard and processor, I still have a floppy from my 386.:hurah:


Floppy drive. I haven't used one of them in 5 years.

btw I can see this thread getting moved.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

lot of boards are now including passive cooling for this purpose. whisper quite setups.


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## deltafowler (Aug 28, 2007)

No getting around it really.
If one takes into account all shipping charges for parts, software costs, and ANYTHING for time spent, it's a wash at best against buying a packaged system from Dell.
I stopped building PC's over five years ago.
Way too easy and cheap to get what I want from Dell and tweak it as needed.


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## BudShark (Aug 11, 2003)

deltafowler said:


> No getting around it really.
> If one takes into account all shipping charges for parts, software costs, and ANYTHING for time spent, it's a wash at best against buying a packaged system from Dell.
> I stopped building PC's over five years ago.
> Way too easy and cheap to get what I want from Dell and tweak it as needed.


I would sortof agree. Cost wise you can get comparable. Quality and feature wise I don't think you do. If you are willing to shop around and do the build yourself, you end up with a better quality system for the same price. If you stick with the OEM OS packages, your software costs aren't bad. And the "SE" versions of players and graphics packages that come with pre-builts usually don't suffice for a true HTPC.

Chris


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

deltafowler said:


> No getting around it really.
> If one takes into account all shipping charges for parts, software costs, and ANYTHING for time spent, it's a wash at best against buying a packaged system from Dell.
> I stopped building PC's over five years ago.
> Way too easy and cheap to get what I want from Dell and tweak it as needed.


I have to disagree when it comes to HTPCs. Dell makes a reasonable run-of-the-mill desktop PC, but they don't market a dedicated Home Theater box. So, while building your own box can save some money you also get a much quieter machine that will allow you to hand-pick the components and look like it belongs in an A/V rack.

Anyway, this thread was an offer to CE folks that may be interested in building an HTPC and a little information about where they could get more information.


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## trevorst (Jul 16, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> !rolling
> 
> I fell for that almost two years ago. I know prices have come down and everything has gotten faster, but it's a "sucker play". :lol:
> 
> ...


I'm with you.....
I ran HT Computers (several of them) for many years and even had the Wife factor solved (well almost). Never did add up the total cost but it was high. What got me out of it was the constant maintenance and tweaking they require and the availability of equipment like the HR's. I still have my server with 3 TB of storage and looking forward to making full use of the HR's media capabilities when the bugs get worked out and transport control is available. Until then I have two Sybased units that playback everything I want to send them through TVersity.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Having worked on a few Dells, I HATE DELL. :lol: 
Can you get "a box" cheap? Sure and you have to wonder why anyone would spend the time building their own instead of buying a Dell.
Well, if you don't like the "cookie cutter" box and want to make any changes/upgrades, it's worth the time to do it yourself [the first time].
I think of Dells the same way I think of "boom boxes". You get one and use it until it breaks and get another one. The costs to "de-Dell" the parts to use in another system [when you need to upgrade/change] overrides any "savings" on the initial purchase.

I encourage all that are interested in a HTPC, to honestly look at the costs before starting. They are getting cheaper to build and also are becoming more "main stream" these days.

I'm sure KenS, myself, and others here will be glad to offer help.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

If you're interested in building for Blu-ray, I'll reprise a link from the DVR to Nero thread pointing to Cyberlink's requirements page: http://www.cyberlink.com/english/support/bdhd_support/system_requirement.jsp

One other thing that came out of that thread is Bhelton71's excellent analysis that CABAC encoded MPEG4 is much more intensive on CPU or MPEG4 decoder than other encodings. So a system able to decode CAVLC MPEG4 might still choke on CABAC MPEG4. Especially on very fast movements in sports.

Cheers,
Tom


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

psweig said:


> I haven't bought a computer since 1988, I just keep replacing the motherboard and processor, I still have a floppy from my 386.:hurah:


Same here, only I joined a little later .. 'bought my first PC in 1994 and built 'em all since 1995. It's just too easy, and I'm too cheap! You can build a better computer for MUCH less money.

I too am about to take the plunge, but I have to admit that building an HTPC is a little initimidating. Trying to spec out the "right" audio and video cards is driving me nuts. Then the software required is a little over my head. I'm fine with just a basic computer for work/gaming, but when you start talking about all of the hard-/software needed to send HD audio/video and all of the audio/video formats and I start to get a little intimidated.

Thanks for the link! I'll be checking it out as I was about to start the project (now that Bluray won the war, I'm ready for an HTPC with Bluray record/playback)


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

This is the case (actually there's another one that I can't think of right now that I like better) I was drooling over...










'Not sure how often I'd use the LCD screen, but it's just too darn cool!


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

What are you guys using for front ends ? I am using MediaPortal with the SafeSpin skin in a filmstrip view. Kind of looks like the iTunes spinner view.
I have a Hauppauge HVR-1600 and it supports the Hauppauge remote, so I am pretty happy with it.

MP gallery for Safespin: http://www.team-mediaportal.com/screenshots/catid,14/


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

Ken S said:


> There's also an interesting device out...if you just want a media server www.popcornhour.com holds some real promise.


If you can get your hands around one .


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

Yeah I remember reading a thread comparing AVC to VC1 on AVSforum and it did mention CABAC. It did add some coding efficiency but greatly increased the processing requirements compared to the amount of additional compression it allowed. For this reason it was left out of VC1.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

NFLnut said:


> This is the case (actually there's another one that I can't think of right now that I like better) I was drooling over...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The LCD is cool - also check out Origen and Avideus over at PCAlchemy. But I would be distracted I think.

Also if you are handy with a soldering iron - check out this project:
http://www.jimmyneutron.org/Media server part 4.htm

He managed to recycle a Lexus DVD screen - and it is a sharp DIY. He is using it as a HAPC.


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

chrpai said:


> BS. While I don't doubt that you've built computers and reused components... That just doesn't fly. ATX and PCI wasn't out for another 6-7 years. Nothing from that machine would be useful today in any meaningful way.


I usually don't respond to your type of post but I can't help myself. PCI is on the *motherboard*. ATX is just the power supply. I do have and old floppy from my 386. Please don't attack me again. :nono2:


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Having worked on a few Dells, I HATE DELL. :lol:
> Can you get "a box" cheap? Sure and you have to wonder why anyone would spend the time building their own instead of buying a Dell.
> Well, if you don't like the "cookie cutter" box and want to make any changes/upgrades, it's worth the time to do it yourself [the first time].
> I think of Dells the same way I think of "boom boxes". You get one and use it until it breaks and get another one. The costs to "de-Dell" the parts to use in another system [when you need to upgrade/change] overrides any "savings" on the initial purchase.
> ...


This also used to be true of Compaq; I don't know if it still is.


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

As far as dell box vs home built I find it depends on how closely what you want actually matches what dell happens to offer. If I take a standard 500$ dell system and try to build the same system on my own I don't end up much cheaper if any. Where it starts making sense is when you want specific customizations. Dell and most major computer mfgs have a horrible option when it comes to video cards for example. They typically have integrated video, the lowest end discrete video and top of the line ridiculously priced video card. They almost always skip the mid end video cards which give you the best bang for your buck and a reasonably playable system. Also most of there gaming systems try to throw in all sorts of other stuff you may or may not want like dual hard drive raid array or a blu-ray burner. I have yet to find any big oem that offers anything close to a mid end gaming system and adding a video card is almost always near the full retail price even tho you may be replacing the 50$ video card already in the system. Much like memory it's usually cheaper to buy it with the crap video card and replace it your self and you still have a spare video card to give away or sell.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

psweig said:


> I usually don't respond to your type of post but I can't help myself. PCI is on the *motherboard*. ATX is just the power supply. I do have and old floppy from my 386. Please don't attack me again. :nono2:


The "ATX" was also a form factor for the motherboards with AGP.
386 was ISA bus
486 [some] added VLB
Pentium was the first with PCI, though some later 486 [motherboards] had them too.
ATX was the first with AGP
And now there is PCI express in several forms, and a SLI also.


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The "ATX" was also a form factor for the motherboards with AGP.
> 386 was ISA bus
> 486 [some] added VLB
> Pentium was the first with PCI, though some later 486 [motherboards] had them too.
> ...


I don't recognize some of your terminology (VLB, Very Large Blocks?) The only way I've dealt with ATX was the power supply connection. You obviously have more experience than I.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

psweig said:


> I don't recognize some of your terminology (VLB, Very Large Blocks?) The only way I've dealt with ATX was the power supply connection. You obviously have more experience than I.


"Video Local Bus" which was an early attempt for a 32 bit bus.
First there was "AT" and then with the Pentium II [and the slot processors, but the first time I saw it was on the Pentium Pro about 11 years ago] came the ATX, which had PS2 keyboard & mouse, and the AGP [advanced graphics port] and 2x [of the PCI bus], then 4x, and lastly 8x.
Now with the 771 socket processors, the video is through PCI express bus.


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "Video Local Bus" which was an early attempt for a 32 bit bus.
> First there was "AT" and then with the Pentium II [and the slot processors, but the first time I saw it was on the Pentium Pro about 11 years ago] came the ATX, which had PS2 keyboard & mouse, and the AGP [advanced graphics port] and 2x [of the PCI bus], then 4x, and lastly 8x.
> Now with the 771 socket processors, the video is through PCI express bus.


I wondered what happened to AGP video. Just as well, it overheated. I never worked on the Pro, wasn't that the one with the defective math co-processor chip ?
The machine I built that I have now has the video integrated. It's the first time I left my Graphics card behind.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

psweig said:


> I wondered what happened to AGP video. Just as well, it overheated. I never worked on the Pro, wasn't that the one with the defective math co-processor chip ?


While there were some Pentiums "recalled", I didn't have any problem with my "pro". It still used the socket 7, and was short lived with the Slot 1, Pentium II coming out, which if you looked at it, was a Pentium Pro II. This has been the major architecture for all until the dual core, to the best of my knowledge.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> If you're interested in building for Blu-ray, I'll reprise a link from the DVR to Nero thread pointing to Cyberlink's requirements page: http://www.cyberlink.com/english/support/bdhd_support/system_requirement.jsp
> 
> One other thing that came out of that thread is Bhelton71's excellent analysis that CABAC encoded MPEG4 is much more intensive on CPU or MPEG4 decoder than other encodings. So a system able to decode CAVLC MPEG4 might still choke on CABAC MPEG4. Especially on very fast movements in sports.
> 
> ...


Tom,

I think the Cyberlink posting is somewhat misleading from a graphics perspective. In particular the AMD 780G chipset with embedded graphics was explicitly designed to meet the needs of BluRay playback, and so far the publicbenchmarks show that it works more than adequately.

One other comment to go with the other posts is that everyone is right on about buying a "cheap" system. You can get a low cost HTPC from HP or Dell (I work for one of them  ), or even an expensive system like Sony was producing, but at the end of the day these systems all make compromises to be a consumer product, and in some cases are very unstable.

To date I have only seen a handful of very high end, niche builders that produce HTPCs that you would want and enjoy having in yor living room. Otherwise it's up to you the assembler to make a system that meets your needs. Here are some general issues I have seen to date:

Noise: As I put in my original post I love large fans moving slowly. Less hum with equal aiflow to smaller fans. Many large PC makers use cheap fans that are noisy (I have a retired Dell desktop that occassionally sounds like a jet taking off).

Memory: Be realistic here. Even with Media Center Extenders the memory load should not really drive anyone beyond 2GB. Beyond that is overkill (in my opinion).

CPUs: This is a tough one. I like the new quad-core CPUs that are out there, but to date I have not been able to exhaust my dual-core machine even with two parallel streams (one local, and one to my XBox360). Look for the best deal.

Disks: I believe in overkill. Getting the OS installed and configured the way you want can take a lot of time. I like having a mirrored OS volume for protection, and then a massive stripeset for storage. This isn't cheap, but it is awesome for an HTPC. I would personally look for a case with room for 4-6 drives.

Graphics: Two things that are must haves: HDMI & HDCP. One thing for me that is essential is NO FANS ALLOWED. GPU fans tend to be low quality, and are often very noisy. Seek out cards with quality passive-cooling and just make sure you get enough air moving through the case to dissipate the heat.

I am more than happy to share more details on my config. Have some good photos of the latest build, but they're trapped in the wife's digital camera.

Lewi


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "Video Local Bus" which was an early attempt for a 32 bit bus.
> First there was "AT" and then with the Pentium II [and the slot processors, but the first time I saw it was on the Pentium Pro about 11 years ago] came the ATX, which had PS2 keyboard & mouse, and the AGP [advanced graphics port] and 2x [of the PCI bus], then 4x, and lastly 8x.
> Now with the 771 socket processors, the video is through PCI express bus.


VLB was a lost cause. Frankly the new IO architectures are much more flexible than either VLB or AGP proved to be as they are not limited to just graphics.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> While there were some Pentiums "recalled", I didn't have any problem with my "pro". It still used the socket 7, and was short lived with the Slot 1, Pentium II coming out, which if you looked at it, was a Pentium Pro II. This has been the major architecture for all until the dual core, to the best of my knowledge.


VOS,

I have to add to this discussion a bit. As someone who did massive amounts of work with SQL Server on the various Intel platforms they have all had quirks in their floating point units.

For example even the Pentium III FPU still though that 7.0 - 6.95 = .0499999999. This bug bit a lot of SQL Server developers as MS did not include their standard "fixes" to cover up these issues with floating point numbers. In the case of SQL Server we simply had to switch to using DECIMAL data types that did not utilize floating point math.

Overall FPUs are a nightmare. Never understood why they were so complicated, but chipmakers seem to struggle with them.

Lewis


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> VLB was a lost cause. Frankly the new IO architectures are much more flexible than either VLB or AGP proved to be as they are not limited to just graphics.


If it's old enough, isn't everything a "lost cause"? Moore's law  
At the time VLB was "hot stuff". :lol:


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

you mirror your OS but stripe your data?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

lguvenoz said:


> Tom,
> 
> I think the Cyberlink posting is somewhat misleading from a graphics perspective. In particular the AMD 780G chipset with embedded graphics was explicitly designed to meet the needs of BluRay playback, and so far the publicbenchmarks show that it works more than adequately.
> 
> ...


Even Cyberlink says their page is outdated--and that is within 15 minutes of every page update. 

The key is an MPEG4 decoder that can handle the profiles with CABAC. If the AMD does, woohoo! That is fantastic.  (Reading up on the 780G, since it includes the ATI Radeon HD2400, you should be good.)

As for memory, if running Vista, I'd go with at least 3gb if you want to handle streams smoothly. You can do with 2gb but your experience might be slightly less impressive.

Absolutely agree that HDCP is required. DVI-D is acceptable if it supports HDCP; HDMI is vastly preferred in my opinion. (I hate huge connectors when small ones will do.) 

And I think I have that same Dell. Somedays it sounds louder than the jets taking off from HAFB just few miles away. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

If you want the ultimate machine, here is a very hefty liquid cooled toy that will blow you socks right off.

Click HERE!

It's not cheap, but it is good.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> If you want the ultimate machine, here is a very hefty liquid cooled toy that will blow you socks right off.
> 
> Click HERE!
> 
> It's not cheap, but it is good.


I have *intimate* knowledge about the Blackbird, and while it is amazing performance, it is gross overkill for an HTPC.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Even Cyberlink says their page is outdated--and that is within 15 minutes of every page update.
> 
> The key is an MPEG4 decoder that can handle the profiles with CABAC. If the AMD does, woohoo! That is fantastic.  (Reading up on the 780G, since it includes the ATI Radeon HD2400, you should be good.)
> 
> ...


I can see the value of 3GB of RAM with Vista. Moreso if using a chipset like the 780G that is going to still a bit. I have been happy with 2GB in my current setup but it does not use embedded graphics so I would up this with the 780G.

Being brutally honest about technology I would personally recommend current AMD technology over Intel because of IO bottlenecks. AMD's HyperTransport is a switched IO fabric and has better responsiveness compared to Intel's current architecture. Intel is updating in 2009 to a switched IO fabric, but until then I like AMD in this regards.

Lastly the big debate of 32-bit versus 64-bit. In my experience I have found that going with 64-bit Vista is ideal if all of your drivers and software support it. If your drivers or software are still 32-bit I would go all 32-bit as my "perception" of running systems is that they run better if there is no transitioning between processor modes. There just seems to be less lag, and in general the 64-bit version "feels" faster.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

psweig said:


> I usually don't respond to your type of post but I can't help myself. PCI is on the *motherboard*. ATX is just the power supply. I do have and old floppy from my 386. Please don't attack me again. :nono2:


Some further clarification...

ATX specifies a general power supply connector and power supply size, but the facts are that there are several flavors of ATX motherboards (20 pin power, 24 pin power, 6 pin CPU power connector, 4 pin CPU power connector, supplemental power from drive power cables, etc...)

In terms of floppies I think we all have them lying around somewhere. I threw away my last 5 1/4 unit about two years ago, but now have a pair of USB 3.5 inch drives lying around for oing installs.


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## Koz (Sep 16, 2006)

I would like to recommend refurbished Dells.
http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventorySearch?c=us&cs=22&l=en&lob=INSPDT&MODEL_DESC=Inspiron%20530&s=dfh&dgc=IM&cid=30380&lid=681589
I picked up an Inspiron 530 with a Quad Core Q6600 processor, ATI Radeon 2400 Pro HD, 4 GB RAM, 500 GB hard drive for just over 400 bucks. (this was also after a 20% off coupon code I found on slickdeals.net) It's still a good deal without the 20%, though, I think.
They also have the Inspiron 530s which is a slim case that might be better for HTPC.

My 2 cents for this discussion.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> This is the case (actually there's another one that I can't think of right now that I like better) I was drooling over...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are fun, but I often have wondered the value of the full screen. It's a lot of extra money when a simple VFD can display most of the pertinent information.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Even Cyberlink says their page is outdated--and that is within 15 minutes of every page update.
> 
> The key is an MPEG4 decoder that can handle the profiles with CABAC. If the AMD does, woohoo! That is fantastic.  (Reading up on the 780G, since it includes the ATI Radeon HD2400, you should be good.)
> 
> ...


Here's a good article on the 780G: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-780g-chipset,1785.html

Note the motherboard in the article. This is the flavor I personally want for my next build (should the wife approve the funding of another pet project  )


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Koz said:


> I would like to recommend refurbished Dells.
> http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/topics/global.aspx/arb/online/en/InventorySearch?c=us&cs=22&l=en&lob=INSPDT&MODEL_DESC=Inspiron%20530&s=dfh&dgc=IM&cid=30380&lid=681589
> I picked up an Inspiron 530 with a Quad Core Q6600 processor, ATI Radeon 2400 Pro HD, 4 GB RAM, 500 GB hard drive for just over 400 bucks. (this was also after a 20% off coupon code I found on slickdeals.net) It's still a good deal without the 20%, though, I think.
> They also have the Inspiron 530s which is a slim case that might be better for HTPC.
> ...


I agree there are some deals to be made in the outlet refurb of the OEM's. They all have them. I have bought 3 refurb computers now and never had a problem until the last one and it stopped working after in use for 1 year.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> (Oh and only 320gb disk.)
> 
> Lets see:
> 1TB - $225 (best deal I can imagine these days)


Imagine $182.48 for a 1TB Western Digital Caviar (WD10EACS) with free shipping and no sales tax to Utah residents.

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/skusearch.hmx?SCriteria=AA71996

Hard drive prices have been dropping like a rock recently.


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## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> While there were some Pentiums "recalled", I didn't have any problem with my "pro". It still used the socket 7, and was short lived with the Slot 1, Pentium II coming out, which if you looked at it, was a Pentium Pro II. This has been the major architecture for all until the dual core, to the best of my knowledge.


There was a Pentium chip whose co-processor was defective. When it got to 5 places past the decimal point it was no longer accurate. Unfortunately Intel chose to defend it, saying that it really didn't matter to that degree. They were called to task by CAD people and architects. My daughter tried to get her chip replaced, but Intel refused.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

My system....

AMD 5000+ cpu with stock fan $88
Gigabyte mb with 780g chipset $89
2 MG gskill memory  $45
500 GB SATA hd 16mb cache $99
HEC HTPC low profile case $50
Hauppauge HVR-950 hd tuner $60
LG Blu Ray/HD DVD Combo retail $169
wireless rf kb and mouse $32
remote with green button $30
Vista Home Premium oem full $99
shipping estimated $75


total $836

features...nearly silent, HDMI output, not much more power required then my HR21, almost no power when it sleeps, HDMI, hd audio, DTS, Vista Media Center software with Home Premium, added automatic commercial skip for DVR of local channels, integrated ATI Radeon HD3200 gpu, gigabyte lan, HDMI audio

Parts prices go up and down daily. Check all the combo prices on newegg, mwave cheaper on MB, and case, and Blu Ray, most parts can be found with lowest prices and free shipping, check Frys and buy also. Check Fatwallet for coupon codes as they all add up. Sign up at fatwallet for %rebates.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> My system....
> 
> AMD 5000+ cpu with stock fan $88
> Gigabyte mb with 780g chipset $89
> ...


This is a great sample system. It is definitely possible to come in at the lower end of cost. Note the term possible...

I think a lot of us, myself included, go beyond the needs in our efforts to get the ultimate unit.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> This is a great sample system. It is definitely possible to come in at the lower end of cost. Note the term possible...
> 
> I think a lot of us, myself included, go beyond the needs in our efforts to get the ultimate unit.


It's always fun building an ultimate machine. For HTPC though his box is more than enough for just about any need. It really is possible to build a very solid HTPC for about $550. $700 if it's going to be running Vista.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Interesting read on the current strategy difference between Intel and AMD. The orignator of the now famous "Moore's Law" had this to say:

"It is simply that hardware with a specific purpose is much more efficient," Moore said. "You wouldn't want to decode video on a CPU. You want to decode that video on a dedicated piece of hardware that is off to the side. At the same time, it achieves the same performance at one-twentieth the power."

In a nutshell AMD's approach with their new 780 chipsets is that they are putting a reasonably high powered graphics processor that can do all of the decodig of the video streams rather than the CPU. The earlier article from Tom's Hardware also corroborates this as in his testing there was no need for a high-end processor (relatively speaking) to support BluRay. This is in stark contrast to the current Intel models that need high power CPUs and graphics cards to really support these new standards.

I guess I mght be biased however as I have always believed in the strength of smaller, dedicated units to handle these types of tasks. If AMD would embed the encryption piece needed for DRM into the chipset they would have an absolutely killer platform for HTPC.

See the link below for the full article.

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Desktops-and-Notebooks/AMD-Sees-Future-in-Accelerated-Computing/1/


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Ken S said:


> It's always fun building an ultimate machine. For HTPC though his box is more than enough for just about any need. It really is possible to build a very solid HTPC for about $550. $700 if it's going to be running Vista.


My big expense has often been the case. I like the refined, high quality look of the higher end cases (my latest was about $169). Otherwise, you are dead on that it can come in cheap.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

My case is the HEC 7K09BB which is sometimes $43 at mwave or sometimes $50 at newegg with free shipping. It has a 270 watt ps, 1 fan that I dont think I hear, black, low profile and front panel USB connectors. Nothing really that draws attention to it which I like. I've seen a few very low profile cases that I like (that are also very exepnsive). I keep looking for a dark smoked 3.5" drive bay cover so I can mount my USB IR remote receiver inside the case. Any ideas on that?


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> My case is the HEC 7K09BB which is sometimes $43 at mwave or sometimes $50 at newegg with free shipping. It has a 270 watt ps, 1 fan that I dont think I hear, black, low profile and front panel USB connectors. Nothing really that draws attention to it which I like. I've seen a few very low profile cases that I like (that are also very exepnsive). I keep looking for a dark smoked 3.5" drive bay cover so I can mount my USB IR remote receiver inside the case. Any ideas on that?


I like more disk space than most low profiles offer, but I think the HEC units are really nice.

In terms of the drive bay cover I think you will just have to cobble a solution together yourself. I've never seen anything like that.

My current Silverstone case has its own IR sensor behind such a panel, but I wanted to use the Media Center remote. I just disassembled the Microsoft unit, embedded the hardware behind the same panel and put together a nice internal USB cable.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> Interesting read on the current strategy difference between Intel and AMD. The orignator of the now famous "Moore's Law" had this to say:
> 
> "It is simply that hardware with a specific purpose is much more efficient," Moore said. "You wouldn't want to decode video on a CPU. You want to decode that video on a dedicated piece of hardware that is off to the side. At the same time, it achieves the same performance at one-twentieth the power."
> 
> ...


Anybody gone to ATI support lately?
You end up at AMD.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Anybody gone to ATI support lately?
> You end up at AMD.


AMD bought them 2 years ago...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> My system....
> 
> AMD 5000+ cpu with stock fan $88
> Gigabyte mb with 780g chipset $89
> ...


If it's any consolation, I think you got gipped on the memory ..


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> If it's any consolation, I think you got gipped on the memory ..


If it was actuall only 2MG he not only got gipped, but also got something I haven't seen in about 20 years 

I'm hoping Doug was teasing though as I don't think $45 is a bad price for 2GB.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

but it's very fast memory.....actually 2GB of DDR2 800 GHz, PC 6400 okay, since I can't get anything past you guys it is 800 MHz.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> If it was actuall only 2MG he not only got gipped, but also got something I haven't seen in about 20 years
> 
> I'm hoping Doug was teasing though as I don't think $45 is a bad price for 2GB.


 .. I make the same mistake when talking about HDD these days. I always say 250 MB drives when I mean 250 GB drives ..


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> .. I make the same mistake when talking about HDD these days. I always say 250 MB drives when I mean 250 GB drives ..


W all need a little humor in our days.... 

Sad thing is I still remember my irst 10MB hard drive... I even remember my first PC that had 5 1/4 floppies and 128KB of RAM.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

If I were doing this again I would also have to consider the AMD 2450e CPU for $80 which runs at an even cooler 45watts. Also, I might consider the Lite ON Blu Ray drive for $129 and give up the HD DVD support. I could probably find slightly cheaper memory and a better deal on a hard drive, $89 for a 500 GB or $120 for a 750GB. A second TV tuner stick is also a nice option.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I'll still defend the Nvidia 8800GT. Dual HDMI, HDCP compliant, quicker than the AMD, which might, just might be important when decoding a CABAC MPEG4 stream. 

Yes, I realize I've just added $160 to the budget--but you all have saved me so much with all the other components. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> I'll still defend the Nvidia 8800GT. Dual HDMI, HDCP compliant, quicker than the AMD, which might, just might be important when decoding a CABAC MPEG4 stream.
> 
> Yes, I realize I've just added $160 to the budget--but you all have saved me so much with all the other components.
> 
> ...


So which one of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...010380048 106791921 1067932704&bop=And&Page=2


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Best price I've found: http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3538922&sku=E145-8832


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> .. I make the same mistake when talking about HDD these days. I always say 250 MB drives when I mean 250 GB drives ..


Now I'm scared of turning 40. :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Best price I've found: http://www.compusa.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3538922&sku=E145-8832


And what would I be missing with this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150279


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> And what would I be missing with this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150279


from what I see.. 256 mem instead of 512 and sligtly slower clock speeds..


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

houskamp said:


> from what I see.. 256 mem instead of 512 and sligtly slower **** speeds..


Your right :lol:

I've been looking at too many of these today.....:eek2:


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Your right :lol:
> 
> I've been looking at too many of these today.....:eek2:


widescreen with both windows open 
but anyway, I doubt you would notice the speed difference...


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

i ordered mine from buy.com... http://www.buy.com/prod/evga-geforc...ress-x16-sli-capable/q/loc/101/206609495.html

comes out to 174 after rebate... and you can get an extra $10 off if you use google checkout (for the first time)...

and they have free shipping...


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## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

AirRocker said:


> i ordered mine from buy.com... http://www.buy.com/prod/evga-geforc...ress-x16-sli-capable/q/loc/101/206609495.html
> 
> comes out to 174 after rebate... and you can get an extra $10 off if you use google checkout (for the first time)...
> 
> and they have free shipping...


http://www.evga.com/support/faq/afmviewfaq.aspx?faqid=57990

They don't mention HDCP in the specs, but this card does support it. Apparently there are some Evga cards that don't support HDCP though. Don't know why they would leave that off of some cards.

Edit: Are the 8800's really quiet enough to be considered for HTPC's? Seems like you'd want a passively cooled card, and you wouldn't need this much GPU horsepower.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> http://www.evga.com/support/faq/afmviewfaq.aspx?faqid=57990
> 
> They don't mention HDCP in the specs, but this card does support it. Apparently there are some Evga cards that don't support HDCP though. Don't know why they would leave that off of some cards.
> 
> Edit: Are the 8800's really quiet enough to be considered for HTPC's? Seems like you'd want a passively cooled card, and you wouldn't need this much GPU horsepower.


you're right... strange... buy.com doesn't mention that at all... and it's not even on the pdf tech spec sheet on the evga website... but you can see the logo for it right on the box though... so it's all good...


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

For anyone that is considering building a computer for the first time..here's the process.

1. Decide what you want to do with it and what your budget is.
2. Pick components based on #1 - We can help you with this.
3. Pick reseller(s) based on price/return policy - We can help here too.
4. Assemble components - This really is pretty easy. Shouldn't take more than an hour. We can help with questions.
5. Install software - Depending on what you have this can take a couple of hours or so (Vista can take an hour). Most of it though requires you only hitting the Enter key every so often.
6. Fine tuning your setup - Plenty of help on the net for doing this and if you're not interested it may not be necessary.

One thing...it should be mandatory that you run an antivirus program if the machine is going to be connected to the internet.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> I'll still defend the Nvidia 8800GT. Dual HDMI, HDCP compliant, quicker than the AMD, which might, just might be important when decoding a CABAC MPEG4 stream.
> 
> Yes, I realize I've just added $160 to the budget--but you all have saved me so much with all the other components.
> 
> ...


Tom,

For less than the 8800GT you can put an ATI video card in a 780g mobo and use crossfire. I'm going without it at first...if I feel it's lagging I'll do that and let you know how it works. I think the ATI 3450 gpu cards are the ones people are using. Cost for them is about $60.

Is one better than the other? I dunno...we should be able to figure out if one/both work with the intended use. Hopefully, we won't have to wait all that long to do so.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Tom,
> 
> For less than the 8800GT you can put an ATI video card in a 780g mobo and use crossfire. I'm going without it at first...if I feel it's lagging I'll do that and let you know how it works. I think the ATI 3450 gpu cards are the ones people are using. Cost for them is about $60.
> 
> Is one better than the other? I dunno...we should be able to figure out if one/both work with the intended use. Hopefully, we won't have to wait all that long to do so.


I agree wih Ken here. Remember that a lot of the advanced graphics processing in the 8800GT and other high-end cards is to support 3D rendering for gaming. There's not much need in an HTPC for this capability.

If building around Vista you can do a lot to still preserve the nice GUI look and feel while furthering optimizing graphics. A prime example here is the translucent effects that Vista has for the borders of windows. These chew up a lot of GPU time, and really add only minimal "ooh and ah" factor to the GUI.

I say start lower for an HTPC. Go with what should be solid, and plan for an upgrade if it's ever needed. With the 780G I think most folks will be more than happy given that up to 512MB of RAM can be allocated to the GPU. Additionally AMD allows for motherboard manufacturers to actually put in dedicated memory for the GPU with this chipset to give it even more capability. To date though people have been more than happy with performance as the GPU can bypass the CPU to get at the memory even in the shared configuration.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Ken S said:


> For anyone that is considering building a computer for the first time..here's the process.
> 
> 1. Decide what you want to do with it and what your budget is.
> 2. Pick components based on #1 - We can help you with this.
> ...


One thing on assembly is cable management. I go with SATA for everything including the optical drives if possible. Much smaller cables, less airflow disruption.

I have also found that being generous with the use of zip ties allows you to create almost rigid wire bundles that can be very efficiently routing in the case to allow for fee air flow within the case.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

OK, so building one of these might save you $100.

However, I see on the HP outlet store refurbished Intel or AMD media center PC's ranging from $700 to $800 with a NTSC/ATSC tuner card in it for PVR. I think this may make a very good selection for the HTPC that is using a HR21 series DVR for local recordings.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> If building around Vista you can do a lot to still preserve the nice GUI look and feel while furthering optimizing graphics. A prime example here is the translucent effects that Vista has for the borders of windows. These chew up a lot of GPU time, and really add only minimal "ooh and ah" factor to the GUI.


That would be the "Aero" part of Vista.
While it's "nice" on a desktop, if you're running a HTPC, your main interest isn't the desktop, but the TV output.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> OK, so building one of these might save you $100.
> 
> However, I see on the HP outlet store refurbished Intel or AMD media center PC's ranging from $700 to $800 with a NTSC/ATSC tuner card in it for PVR. I think this may make a very good selection for the HTPC that is using a HR21 series DVR for local recordings.


As someone with *intimate* (see previous posts) knowledge of the full HP product line these units are good, but they carry a lot of baggage that many people don't want. This is the big drawback to any of the current consumer variants. Most PC companies just take a desktop, slap a tuner and a remote on it and call it a media center. There are very different needs for a god quality HTPC.

Things like HDMI (which most out there today lack), quality audio support, BluRay, etc. are often not there.

Sony made a solid attempt at a true media center PC, but it was fraught with stability issues.

This is the big reason there is such a big community of custom builders today. People are clammering for the perfect solution.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> That would be the "Aero" part of Vista.
> While it's "nice" on a desktop, if you're running a HTPC, your main interest isn't the desktop, but the TV output.


Definitely. Looks cool, but if it makes my machine a pig I don't want it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> OK, so building one of these might save you $100.
> 
> However, I see on the HP outlet store refurbished Intel or AMD media center PC's ranging from $700 to $800 with a NTSC/ATSC tuner card in it for PVR. I think this may make a very good selection for the HTPC that is using a HR21 series DVR for local recordings.


I would add a word of caution here.
I have a nicely working HTPC with NTSC & ATSC tuner cards. MPEG-2 works fine with a single core processor and a GeForce 6600GT. Full HD output in even 1080p.
Nero 8 and MPEG-4 over taxes this system.
There is nothing wrong with going to the refurbished store, just don't get "too little". Look for a 3 or 3.2 GHz Pentium D [or AMD equivalent] system as a minimum.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I would add a word of caution here.
> I have a nicely working HTPC with NTSC & ATSC tuner cards. MPEG-2 works fine with a single core processor and a GeForce 6600GT. Full HD output in even 1080p.
> Nero 8 and MPEG-4 over taxes this system.
> There is nothing wrong with going to the refurbished store, just don't get "too little". Look for a 3 or 3.2 GHz Pentium D [or AMD equivalent] system as a minimum.


Could not agree more VOS.

I am not as up to speed on the Intel story, but the AMD folks with the 780G chipset chose the GPU they did explicitly because it dealt with the issues of MPEG2 AND MPEG4 decoding within the chip. This left only the DRM stuff for the CPU to do. So there are a lot of variables that need to be considered. Definitely don't sell yourself short though. If it has a wimpy CPU make sure it's got a motherboard and socket that could potentially let you upgrade.

One other thought on the why build versus buy. This is kind of like the first generation SUVs. When SUVs first came out, I remember a lot of consumers and reviewers all complaining that they drove like trucks. Well..... They were trucks. With pretty extras, but still trucks. It took the manufacturers a while to get things figured out and start building SUVs from the ground up.

Same is true with HTPCs. The current consumer variants are still pretty much PCs with some nice window dressings added. Assuming they become more mainstream I would expect more companies to focus on very lean systems that really fit the bill as an HTPC well without all of the PC baggage.

As an example my HTPC does not have a firewall or virus protection. Why??? I don't surf the web with it, don't get email, and have it protected behind a hardware firewall. Additionally all that extra software adds lots of overhead to every operation you do making it slower to respond

I expect that as the hardware world matures more you will even see the software world change to have special versions of packages explicitly for HTPC that reduce this overhead and latency.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Take a look at some of these systems: http://www.velocitymicro.com/category.php?cid=33

This type of company is just now really starting to emerge.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> One thing on assembly is cable management. I go with SATA for everything including the optical drives if possible. Much smaller cables, less airflow disruption.
> 
> I have also found that being generous with the use of zip ties allows you to create almost rigid wire bundles that can be very efficiently routing in the case to allow for fee air flow within the case.


Yes, cable management is a biggie. It's not hard though...it's just making them neat at the end of the job.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Spanky_Partain said:


> OK, so building one of these might save you $100.
> 
> However, I see on the HP outlet store refurbished Intel or AMD media center PC's ranging from $700 to $800 with a NTSC/ATSC tuner card in it for PVR. I think this may make a very good selection for the HTPC that is using a HR21 series DVR for local recordings.


Spanky,

It may save you that and get you better components for your job and a case that you like. Hey, nothing wrong with buying a pre-made if it works for what you want. It's just not all that hard to put together a unit that can be exactly what you want...and it'll save you some money. It can also never hurt to have a basic understand of how to put one together especially if you're interested in upgrading a component down the road.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I'm very intrigued by the AMD780G motherboards and CPUs. I think Ken S' system will do a very good job at all the MPEG4 decoding requirement, though I'd love to through a CABAC HD stream at it. Even that, I think it would do.

So even though I am on the course I have chosen, I don't wish to at all demean Ken S' path. I very well might use some of that for other computers. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Tom,

I think this is a great place to share ideas on technologies. Personally I am a big AMD proponent (if you couldn't tell  ), but I appreciate the other side of the coin (Intel) as well. I just love a good, educated discussion.

One thing that is interesting is that AMD as a company is investing heavily in an array of embedded technologies outside of the computer space (cell phones in particular), and I think this gives them a leg up in HTPC as these really are embedded technology, albeit very capable technology. It's a different approach.

Look at the internals of a DirecTV DVR and you can clearly see the difference. DirecTV doesn't need a 3.0GHz processor just to handle MPEG4 and 1080i graphics with DRM because they have dedicated chips to handle those things. The real winners in HTPC will begin to go this route (IMHO).


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Spanky,
> 
> It may save you that and get you better components for your job and a case that you like. Hey, nothing wrong with buying a pre-made if it works for what you want. It's just not all that hard to put together a unit that can be exactly what you want...and it'll save you some money. It can also never hurt to have a basic understand of how to put one together especially if you're interested in upgrading a component down the road.


I always forget about the benefits of cannibalizing systems. I actually bought a returned IBM desktop at Best Buy because it was 80% off. I needed about $100 in upgrades that I did myself, but got a great deal and ended up with exactly what I wanted.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm very intrigued by the AMD780G motherboards and CPUs. I think Ken S' system will do a very good job at all the MPEG4 decoding requirement, though I'd love to through a CABAC HD stream at it. Even that, I think it would do.
> 
> So even though I am on the course I have chosen, I don't wish to at all demean Ken S' path. I very well might use some of that for other computers.
> 
> ...


Tom,

I'll be sure to report back on how it does. There's nothing demeaning about going with a different solution for a computer. If there was only one right way there wouldn't be much competition and the prices would be ridiculous!


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

I have an Intel 955 mother board with a 3.2G Pentium Dual Core processor, 2 Gig and an Nvidia 5600 GTS. Using Nero 7.5, I can play the mpg4 from the HR20-700, but I get stops and stutters (10/100 ethernet hard wired). I eventuallly plan on a core 2 quad, but for now I picked up an Nvidia 8800GTS 512 OC. Should I also plan on updating Nero to 8.0?

Bob


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

azarby said:


> I have an Intel 955 mother board with a 3.2G Pentium Dual Core processor, 2 Gig and an Nvidia 5600 GTS. Using Nero 7.5, I can play the mpg4 from the HR20-700, but I get stops and stutters (10/100 ethernet hard wired). I eventuallly plan on a core 2 quad, but for now I picked up an Nvidia 8800GTS 512 OC. Should I also plan on updating Nero to 8.0?
> 
> Bob


Nero is really the "other thread", but it's worth seeing what the 8800GTS does first.
I got smooth play back with my 3 GHz Pentium D and a 6600GT.


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## desh (Oct 4, 2006)

I've found that the Mac Mini is a great HTCP box for playing back H.264, DVD's, music, etc.

It has a great form factor, near silent operation, low cost, and can run either OS X, Linux, or Windows natively. It draws a very small amount of energy at idle which is great for 24/7 operation. For those that ran XBMC on the old Xbox, there's a slick OS X 10.5 port of XBMC available that has active development taking place (watch it in action).

It could use a better video card, blue ray and updated CPU, but rumor has it they might be refreshing the specs soon. As it is, I've never run into difficulty running at my projectors 720p with Win XP MCE. Mine also doubles as my file, http, dns, and ftp server.


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Nero is really the "other thread", but it's worth seeing what the 8800GTS does first.
> I got smooth play back with my 3 GHz Pentium D and a 6600GT.


VOS,

The 8800GTS 512 did not eliminate the stop and go action. I'll take this to the Nero thread.

Bob


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## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> I think this is a great place to share ideas on technologies. Personally I am a big AMD proponent (if you couldn't tell  ), but I appreciate the other side of the coin (Intel) as well. I just love a good, educated discussion.


Actually, doesn't this whole discussion really belong over in the computer talk forum here?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

The Mac Mini was a viable alternative, but it really needs a refresh to compete with the newer machines. The form factor is great though.



desh said:


> I've found that the Mac Mini is a great HTCP box for playing back H.264, DVD's, music, etc.
> 
> It has a great form factor, near silent operation, low cost, and can run either OS X, Linux, or Windows natively. It draws a very small amount of energy at idle which is great for 24/7 operation. For those that ran XBMC on the old Xbox, there's a slick OS X 10.5 port of XBMC available that has active development taking place (watch it in action).
> 
> It could use a better video card, blue ray and updated CPU, but rumor has it they might be refreshing the specs soon. As it is, I've never run into difficulty running at my projectors 720p with Win XP MCE. Mine also doubles as my file, http, dns, and ftp server.


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## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> Look at the internals of a DirecTV DVR and you can clearly see the difference. DirecTV doesn't need a 3.0GHz processor just to handle MPEG4 and 1080i graphics with DRM because they have dedicated chips to handle those things. The real winners in HTPC will begin to go this route (IMHO).


I disagree. With PC's, you have a lot of flexibility with upgrades and choice of components. Embedded solutions don't usually offer this.

Also, they tend to be designed around a fairly small list of scenarios. When you try to expand beyond that, the box can't do it. The 50 series link limit is a great example of the current DTV boxes being underpowered. So this is something people want to do TODAY that they can't do...what about the next cool thing that comes up 6/12/18 months from now? If it's a PC, you get an add-in card + some software and you get it. With the embedded solution, most of the time you'll have to purchase new hardware.

There are plenty of small form factor PC's running some version of Linux or Windows that don't need top of the line components to give you what you're looking for.

Then again, maybe I'm a little biased towards PC's being a better solution


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Actually, doesn't this whole discussion really belong over in the computer talk forum here?


I've gone back and forth about this topic. When we start talking about DIRECTV MPEG4 and CABAC encoding, I lean toward leaving it here. When we are more generic, I lean exactly as you suggest.

So I've left it for the moment. We can always move it, leaving a "Moved Marker".

Thanks for the suggestion,
Tom


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

DIRECTV MPEG4 and CABAC encoding, DIRECTV MPEG4 and CABAC encoding, DIRECTV MPEG4 and CABAC encoding


Can that help to keep it here a bit longer? :lol:


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

[/QUOTE]


veryoldschool said:


> DIRECTV MPEG4 and CABAC encoding, DIRECTV MPEG4 and CABAC encoding, DIRECTV MPEG4 and CABAC encoding


That... not so much...


veryoldschool said:


> Can that help to keep it here a bit longer? :lol:


A request such as this from another honored contributor (as is Overtheretoomuch) does. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> I disagree. With PC's, you have a lot of flexibility with upgrades and choice of components. Embedded solutions don't usually offer this.
> 
> Also, they tend to be designed around a fairly small list of scenarios. When you try to expand beyond that, the box can't do it. The 50 series link limit is a great example of the current DTV boxes being underpowered. So this is something people want to do TODAY that they can't do...what about the next cool thing that comes up 6/12/18 months from now? If it's a PC, you get an add-in card + some software and you get it. With the embedded solution, most of the time you'll have to purchase new hardware.
> 
> ...


I agree that PCs are the best solution. Maybe I didn't articulate the point well enough...

There have always been two schools of thought about computer architectures:

1. Bigger, badder, faster CPU that does everything you ever want.
2. Multiple processors that each handle specific elements.

The second path is the one that I personally have always preferred. I think you get a better, more efficient package with smaller processors that are focused.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I got into HTPCs over a year ago, just about the same time I switched from DirecTV to FIOS. One of the main reasons I wanted to build an HTPC was to have the ability to record my OTA HD locals. I had been using my HDTivos for this purpose but realized I was spending money to record something I could otherwise get for "free" (initial expenses aside, I pay zero monthly fees for using my HTPC as a PVR and guide data is free). If I wanted to stick with Tivos after switching to FIOS I would have needed at least 3 or 4 S3 Tivos to do what I wanted. I opted to go with an HTPC and got two S3 Tivos to supplement my recording and viewing habits.

HTPCs are not for everyone. If you're looking for a plug and play solution, keep looking. These boxes are for hobbyists and people that don't mind getting under the hood to tinker with them. For that reason I highly recommend building your own HTPC rather than buying a Dell or other prebuilt box. I bought two Dell PCs for my kids when they went off to college and have regretted it ever since. There's nothing wrong with buying a refurbished PC and then pulling the components you want out of it but if you want a real HTPC you need a case that's designed for it. Let's face it, an HTPC is meant to be a component in a home theater setup so why would you want a box that looks like a PC sitting next to the rest of your HT gear?

You can build a budget HTPC for under $500, but just don't expect it to do much. Realistically, an HTPC that is capable of being a DVR and can play back Blu-Ray discs or HD-DVDs will set you back a minimum of $1k. I've lost track of what I've invested in my HTPC but I'm sure it's at least twice that.

Hardware requirements for an HTPC depend entirely on what you expect it to do. If you use it as a DVR for standard definition programming and only play back regular DVDs then a single core processor may be all you need. If you plan on any type of HD playback then you will need a dual core processor running @ 2GHz or better as a bare minimum. 2GB of RAM is usually more than sufficient for an XP-based unit but I saw where someone recommended 3GB for a Vista box. Personally, I think Vista is still in a beta release and would not recommend it to anyone, but YMMV.

Here's a breakdown of my setup:

AMD 64 X2 4600+ CPU
2GB Corsair 800MHz DDR RAM
Abit Socket 939 mobo (I forget the exact model at the moment); I'd recommend a socket AM2 model for a current build
Corsair 520HX modular PSU
LeadTek nVIDIA 8600GT graphics card with 512MB DDR2 RAM
V-Box 3560-A-USB tuners (six of them connected to an external USB hub)
Pioneer SATA DVD-RW drive
Silverstone LM14B HTPC case
500GB SATA II drive partitioned for OS and file storage
750GB SATA II drive for PVR recording
Windows XP Pro SP 2
Snapstream's BeyondTV 4 PVR application
Cyberlink PowerDVD Ultra 7.3, version 3319a for playing back ripped HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs
Nero Showtime 4 w/HD plug-in for playing back ripped and stripped HD files
ZoomPlayer and TheaterTek DVD for standard DVD and miscellaneous video file playback
Logitech Harmony 880 remote w/USB-UIRT and EventGhost for controlling all of the HTPC functions
Microsoft wireless keyboard and mouse (7000 keyboard/8000 mouse)

You may have noticed the lack of an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray drive in this system. That's because I have them connected to my main PC which I use for ripping the discs and storing them on a 3TB unRAID server. The movies are streamed from the server to my HTPC via my gigabit ethernet network. HD playback from ripped discs are absolutely perfect, with but an occasional glitch, which I attribute to surface defects in the disc that affected the ripping process (i.e., scratches, smudges, etc.). I use Slysoft's AnyDVD HD for ripping all of my discs. There are proceses outlined in the Slysoft forums for stripping out the unwanted extras from HD discs and leaving just the main movie.

I also store standard DVDs on the unRAID server and play them back using ffdshow with TheaterTek or Zoomplayer. The results far exceed anything you can get from any high-end DVD player on the market. Setup for using ffdshow is discussed in a sticky thread in the AVSForums HTPC section. If you plan on using your HTPC for DVD playback then you should strongly consider this setup for maximum enjoyment. My $2000 Marantz flagship universal disc player has been sitting in a box in my closet ever since I started using my HTPC to watch DVDs. It's an awesome player but my HTPC simply puts it to shame.

There is also a sticky thread in the HTPC section of the AVSForums for building an HD HTPC, which I consider must reading for anyone thinking of getting into HTPCs. It is by far the most comprehensive list of HTPC components compiled anywhere. I tried to keep my setup simple and minimize the number of components inside the HTPC case. Having the tuners located externally helps keep the noise and heat levels down. The motherboard has a digital audio output so I connect the S/PDIF output to my preamp/processor for handling the surround sound processing. Some people like to install a separate sound card and send the analog outputs to their receiver. PCs tend to be very noisy environments and are not kind to analog signals so I never saw the logic in this type of arrangement.

Graphics cards come in all flavors these days. Most of them come with DVI connectors but many new models are using HDMI outputs. If you have a receiver capable of handling HDMI 1.3 inputs (i.e., combined video and HD audio) then you might want to look into one of these cards. You can usually connect the S/PDIF output from the motherboard to the graphics card so that the HDMI cable carries both signals. The latest crop of nVIDIA (8500 and up) and ATi (3400 and up) cards mostly support HDCP, but not all do so check the specs before making your purchase. Any of these cards will work sufficiently well for HD playback. If you plan on using your HTPC for gaming then look into the higher end cards with lots of memory. Consider getting an aftermarket fan or cooler as many fans that come with stock cards tend to be somewhat noisy in my experience.

HTPC cases tend to be a very personal choice. Think long and hard before plunking down your hard earned money on that cool case with the huge LCD display. They may look cool but they tend to be pretty useless, not to mention distracting and very expensive. A nice LCD display can easily add $300-400 to the price of a case and really doesn't do all that much for you. Check the internal layout of the case to make sure it can accommodate what you want to put into it. I learned the hard way that many cases don't like nVIDIA 8800GTS cards because they are simply too long. Choosing a case, motherboard, and graphics card should be coordinated to ensure that everything fits.

Tuner cards are also widely debated as to which is best. I chose USB tuners mainly because there are no motherboards available with six PCI or PCI-E slots and I wanted six tuners. It's also the reason I didn't use MCE instead of plain old XP Pro. The OS was simply too limiting in the way of multiple tuner support. I do get some slight stuttering on certain channels during playback but I'm pretty sure it's related to the signal strength of the affected channels, which I'm currently in the process of dealing with. The HD HomeRun is a very popular choice as an HD tuner. You locate it externally and connect it to your HTPC via an ethernet connection. It supports both ATSC and QAM which makes it a perfect choice if your digital cable or FIOS system has lots of in-the-clear QAM channels. Here's a great site to check for HDTV tuner info:

http://www.hdtvtunerinfo.com/index.html

You can easily control your HTPC with any remote and a compatible IR receiver and app that interprets the IR signals and translates them to commands that your PC can understand. I use EventGhost for this. It's freeware and easy to set up. There are other apps that can do this (HIP and Girder and several others) so find one you like. Many apps have profiles already configured to work with certain remotes and applications. Others require that you configure them manually. Either way, it makes your HTPC behave just like any other remote controlled device in your HT configuration.

Final thought - don't scrimp on the power supply. I prefer modular supplies since it cuts down on the rat's nest of cables inside the case. Seasonic is probably the most popular brand as are the many clones (Antec, Corsair, and several others).


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## BudShark (Aug 11, 2003)

FYI - for those interested. There was discussion of the AMD A780 series boards. NewEgg has an ECS model on sale right now:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135075

$67 shipped ($69.99 - $10 rebate + $7 shipping)

This board does have HDMI out.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

captain_video said:


> There is also a sticky thread in the HTPC section of the AVSForums for building an HD HTPC, which I consider must reading for anyone thinking of getting into HTPCs. It is by far the most comprehensive list of HTPC components compiled anywhere.


 We've now come full circle. That link is where I started this thread.


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## lakaw (Jul 23, 2007)

The 780G based motherboards only support up to 5.1 audio channels (think SPDIF) through the HDMI port. If you want to build an HTPC for Blu-Ray/HD DVD viewing you may consider the Geforce 8200 based motherboards. Hardware acceleration for VC-1 & h.264, and 8 channel LPCM support through HDMI.


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

***EDIT - The previous post answers my question. Sorry about that ;-)

Ken S, great info on the AMD 780 chipset. I've been waiting to see a manufacturer come out with on-board video capable of rendering HD. My HTPC is hooked up with a DVI to HDMI cable, with seperate audio. Did I understand that the 780 chipset outputs HDMI with audio? 

I'm looking for a HD DVR for another TV, not quite ready to go to a D* HD DVR, and unsure the proposed E* TR-50 (HD OTA DVR) is anything but vaporware. That would leave me with either moving to a Sage setup (currently using Beyond TV DVR software) with my living room HTPC + an Sage extender (which is pretty hard to come by) or building another HTPC.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Ken S said:


> We've now come full circle. That link is where I started this thread.


LOL. I saw the link but I didn't check to see where it pointed specifically. I assumed that it was just pointing to the HTPC section at AVS. At least it shows we're on the same page.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Ken S said:


> We've now come full circle. That link is where I started this thread.


:lol:

You just want to up your post count....


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Okay .. I'll bite .. and just maybe this will keep this discussion here which will make it easier to find and follow.

At the risk of being considered a







,

(1)what the HECK is "CABAC?"

(2)Why should I want it? (yes .. I know that makes me sound like a 'tard, like Jessica Simpson: "I don't know what that is .. but I want it ..")

I read the Wikipedia description and it made my brain start hurting.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

CABAC is one of a couple ways to encode MPEG4. It is very tight and efficient giving excellent picture quality at a lower bitrate than other encoding methods.

The trick is that is requires more MPEG4 decoding horsepower than the other methods. Either as raw CPU or a more powerful dedicated MPEG4 decoding chip.

(and yes, it can make your head hurt to walk thru all the MPEG4 descriptions.) 

The NVidia 8800GT family has such an MPEG4 decoder as does the AMD780G. There are several graphics cards that should be able to handle the load. If not you need a powerful PC CPU to do the work for you.

Cheers,
Tom


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Thanks Tom!

I have a fairly decent grasp of hardware, but software and codecs are NOT my bag!


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> CABAC is one of a couple ways to encode MPEG4. It is very tight and efficient giving excellent picture quality at a lower bitrate than other encoding methods.
> 
> The trick is that is requires more MPEG4 decoding horsepower than the other methods. Either as raw CPU or a more powerful dedicated MPEG4 decoding chip.
> 
> ...


This is one of the fundamental keys to system design in general. It will always be more cost effective to incorporate the decoder directly into a GPU from a product perspective. Consider the latest generation of gaming consoles...

I'll talke XBox360 as I am most familiar with that platform. It has a total processing power of a little over 1 teraflop. Of that processing power they only yield about 300 gigaflops from the six-core CPU. The remaining 700 gigaflops is all within the GPU.

GPU's are traditionally lower cost to make and simpler to design than the general purpose CPU chips. This is the major reason to pay close attention to the graphics card when assembling an HTPC. Buy the right graphics card, and you can go with a lower power, lower heat CPU giving you a quieter system (from less fans) with less thermal load.

Now I give Tom a lot of credit for knowing the details on MPEG4. I never paid attention to that level of detail, and it gives me a new set of questions to ask. More arcane knowledge to add to my ability to baffle my wife with superfluous information.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Seems like there are a few lesser options too:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2977


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Here's a note on the ATI side of the house with their HD decoding logic: http://ati.amd.com/technology/Avivo/pdf/ATI_Avivo_HD_tech_brief.pdf


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## bribbans (Aug 30, 2007)

I recently built a HTPC With the intent of getting the HDPC-20. I was able to keep it about $1000.00

My specs are:
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0GHz
Asus P5E-VM HDMI
Corsair XMS2 4GB DDR2 800
Seagate Barracuda 250GB
Western Digital Caviar 1TB 
LG Blu-ray DVD Burner & HD DVD-ROM drive

I saved money by using the Asus P5E-VM HDMI. I am now able to put off the video card.


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## nathanielt (Aug 20, 2006)

bribbans said:


> I recently built a HTPC With the intent of getting the HDPC-20.


That's what's got me pouring over this thread and others on HTPCs.

Question: what is trick play like on Vista Media Center? I really like the Tivo-style FF correction in the HR-21, but my understanding is that that is protected by a Tivo patent (which DirecTV has the right to practice).


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## poonjahb (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm actually in the process of building an HTPC right now. What does it take to get in on the trial of the HDPC-20, and if that's not an option, is there any ETA on availability for them?


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

Ken S said:


> The Mac Mini was a viable alternative, but it really needs a refresh to compete with the newer machines. The form factor is great though.


I use a Mac Mini for my HTPC. I am using it (with VLC) right now.

I have the first Intel model (Core Duo, not Core 2 Duo), and it can play some low bitrate 1080p movies as long as they are 2.35:1. It plays 720p (at 24 or 30fps) quite well. It has optical audio out and VLC supports it for Dolby Digital 5.1 audio playback.

Newer ones have faster CPUs and do a bit better. But honestly, it really is time for it to be refreshed with a graphics chip that does H.264 and MPEG-4 decoding in hardware. Then it could play 720p and 1080p full-screen full framerate movies. HDMI out so it could have discrete 6-channel audio out would be nice too. Oh yeah, and HDCP (HDCP is such a scam).

Oh, and one more thing to mention. Allegedly, there is a port of XBMC for Mac OS being prepped. That'd be great, because as good as VLC is at playback, XBMC had a better UI.


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## bribbans (Aug 30, 2007)

nathanielt said:


> That's what's got me pouring over this thread and others on HTPCs.
> 
> Question: what is trick play like on Vista Media Center? I really like the Tivo-style FF correction in the HR-21, but my understanding is that that is protected by a Tivo patent (which DirecTV has the right to practice).


I use a Harmony 880 remote when using the. It has a skip feature but I do not know if it will be a 30 second skip with the HDPC-20. Right now when I use the skip with a DVD it forwards me a chapter at a time.


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## 456521 (Jul 6, 2007)

flipptyfloppity said:


> Oh, and one more thing to mention. Allegedly, there is a port of XBMC for Mac OS being prepped. That'd be great, because as good as VLC is at playback, XBMC had a better UI.


It's more than allegedly.  I just tried it this weekend on my iMac and it worked for the very few DVD rips (stored as VOB files on a network share) that I tried. I didn't try any of the other features except for Internet radio.


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## bribbans (Aug 30, 2007)

poonjahb said:


> I'm actually in the process of building an HTPC right now. What does it take to get in on the trial of the HDPC-20, and if that's not an option, is there any ETA on availability for them?


If I remember right there was a sign up period last fall. They should be testing them now or really soon. They cannot tell you if they are testing them because of the confidentially agreement.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

bribbans said:


> If I remember right there was a sign up period last fall. They should be testing them now or really soon. They cannot tell you if they are testing them because of the confidentially agreement.


The latest I have heard is that this was "by invitation only" and the latest information from Earl was that the entire process was being run by Microsoft. I recommend digging around at http://www.thegreenbutton.com to see if there is any more information there on it.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

nathanielt said:


> That's what's got me pouring over this thread and others on HTPCs.
> 
> Question: what is trick play like on Vista Media Center? I really like the Tivo-style FF correction in the HR-21, but my understanding is that that is protected by a Tivo patent (which DirecTV has the right to practice).


My personal experience is that trick play is OK with Vista Media Center. They do not, that I have noticed, have the autocorrect feature. The motion is pretty smooth, but again have not tested with MPEG4 source so there could be some quirks when we get to the HDCP-20 depending upon how the codecs work out.

I originally had UltimateTV and the trick with that works with Media Center as well. Just use th "jump back" button when exiting trickplay.

Of general note, the UI is pretty polished in my opinion. I personally think the look and feel of the guide and playlist is great. Lots of pretty graphics that most vendors don't think of, and give it that "gee whiz" factor.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

The best trick play is with the plug in for automatic commercial skip. okay, not really trick play.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

The nice thing about Media Center is just like gitarzan pointed out. There are plug-ins for an array of things. I would not be surprised that once the HDPC-20 is released to see a dedicated forum here for folks building systems. There are so many little options that I would expect people to be needing guidance.

I'm right there so long as DirecTV doesn't charge an arm and a leg for the receiver.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Another interesting tidbit for us in the DirecTV world is this article: http://stuffthathappens.com/blog/2008/01/16/directv-hdpc-20-patent-review/

Some industrious person went out and researched all of the patent numbers on the tuner from CES. Gives a little insight into some of the security aspects us in the HTPC space will face once this thing gets out in the wild.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

lguvenoz said:


> The nice thing about Media Center is just like gitarzan pointed out. There are plug-ins for an array of things. I would not be surprised that once the HDPC-20 is released to see a dedicated forum here for folks building systems. There are so many little options that I would expect people to be needing guidance.
> 
> I'm right there so long as DirecTV doesn't charge an arm and a leg for the receiver.


I hope to get an HDPC-20 shortly after it comes out, cost permitting. But, seems to me that any HR2x should have what it takes to also work like an HDPC-20. I can't really think of what might be in an HDPC-20 that is not also in my HR21.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

lguvenoz said:


> The nice thing about Media Center is just like gitarzan pointed out. There are plug-ins for an array of things. I would not be surprised that once the HDPC-20 is released to see a dedicated forum here for folks building systems. There are so many little options that I would expect people to be needing guidance.
> 
> I'm right there so long as DirecTV doesn't charge an arm and a leg for the receiver.


My next project may be an unraid server. This is a network attached storage device that boots from a thumb drive. It is intended for digital media storage. Also, very cheap.


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## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> I hope to get an HDPC-20 shortly after it comes out, cost permitting. But, seems to me that any HR2x should have what it takes to also work like an HDPC-20. I can't really think of what might be in an HDPC-20 that is not also in my HR21.


Big differences:
The HDPC has the capability to work as a USB device.

The HR2x has a hard drive, networking ports, eSATA, and I believe runs an OS off a chip (or maybe it's on the HD; either way, it also has a CPU to run that OS). It also has the capability to be a USB host, though I don't think any devices are supported at this time.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Big differences:
> The HDPC has the capability to work as a USB device.
> 
> The HR2x has a hard drive, networking ports, eSATA, and I believe runs an OS off a chip (or maybe it's on the HD; either way, it also has a CPU to run that OS). It also has the capability to be a USB host, though I don't think any devices are supported at this time.


Exactly, everything is there, USB, ethernet, eSATA. If not able to write USB drivers for Vista to have the HR21 function as an external tuner then how about streaming from the HR21 to the PC over the network. Maybe even controlled from a Media Center extender (XBOX 360).


----------



## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

The HR2x can't operate as a USB client device, so they'll never have drivers to have it connect to a PC as a tuner.

Saving to a location on the network is probably possible, just requires some software in the HR2x. Probably easier to stream it to the local HD, then push it over the network when the show is over.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> The HR2x can't operate as a USB client device, so they'll never have drivers to have it connect to a PC as a tuner.
> 
> Saving to a location on the network is probably possible, just requires some software in the HR2x. Probably easier to stream it to the local HD, then push it over the network when the show is over.


I'll take your word on the USB ports but they seem to be little value if they are crippled as you say. But if not the USB ports why not the network port? Not for just transfering data to a media center PC for later playback but for that and streaming live TV. Similar to how the HD HomeRun OTA network tuner works that is fully supported in Windows Vista.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> I'll take your word on the USB ports but they seem to be little value if they are crippled as you say. But if not the USB ports why not the network port? Not for just transfering data to a media center PC for later playback but for that and streaming live TV. Similar to how the HD HomeRun OTA network tuner works that is fully supported in Windows Vista.


I would not go quite so far as to say they are "crippled". They have a purpose today, and actually serve a purpose. Today they are very usable for control purposes using serial cables and adapters. This has a narrow scope of use, but is very valid.

Down the road I could also see them expanding the USB ports to maybe add support for wireless adapters or some other USB peripherals.

In terms of the network port, the HR2x units can only output one stream at time. They can stream multiple to the hard disk, but this does not allow them to actually be played. The PC would have to not only be able to read the data, but also be able to access the Smartcard for DRM validation.


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## gregchak (Jan 8, 2007)

bribbans said:


> I recently built a HTPC With the intent of getting the HDPC-20. I was able to keep it about $1000.00
> 
> My specs are:
> Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0GHz
> ...


This was a setup I was leaning towards. I was stuck between that and what I have listed below. Anyone had any thoughts on this list? Is bribbans's a better setup? My main reason for my Gigabyte mobo setup was because I couldn't find information on whether the video decoding for the Asus was off-loaded to the GPU and how the RAM for the onboard GPU was handled; meaning shared with system RAM or not.

GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS4
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz
Palit Radeon 2600 XT Super
RAM, HD, etc.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

gregchak said:


> This was a setup I was leaning towards. I was stuck between that and what I have listed below. Anyone had any thoughts on this list? Is bribbans's a better setup? My main reason for my Gigabyte mobo setup was because I couldn't find information on whether the video decoding for the Asus was off-loaded to the GPU and how the RAM for the onboard GPU was handled; meaning shared with system RAM or not.
> 
> GIGABYTE GA-EP35-DS4
> Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz
> ...


The ASUS manual for that HDMI board tells a grim tale. No multichannel audio output on the HDMI? Why not 8 channel discrete? It says due to Intel driver issues the video output will underscan or overscan at certain resolutions and you can't fix it.

That makes the HDMI output seem useless.

The RAM for any onboard GPU will be shared. This is not an issue, the bandwidth on system is so high now that cycle-stealing (shared) video isn't a problem. Xbox 360 uses cycle-stealing video and it works quite well.

Not because of cycle-stealing, but just to get video decoding, I think the wise move is a mobo with no onboard video and a cheap NVidia video card, like an 8600 GT.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

flipptyfloppity said:


> I think the wise move is a mobo with no onboard video and a cheap NVidia video card, like an 8600 GT.


It might be wiser with a 8800GT.


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## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> It might be wiser with a 8800GT.


How are those cards with respect to power/noise?

With the 9xxx series out now, I think there are a lot of deals to be had on these cards.

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/829009?highlight_key=y&keyword1=8800GT

$100 after rebate for this one. Supports HDCP and comes with Call Of Duty 4.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> How are those cards with respect to power/noise?
> 
> With the 9xxx series out now, I think there are a lot of deals to be had on these cards.
> 
> ...


I have an 8800GT. You do need a decent power supply. I am using a 650watt without a problem.

As for noise I don't hear anything from it.


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## gregchak (Jan 8, 2007)

flipptyfloppity said:


> The ASUS manual for that HDMI board tells a grim tale. No multichannel audio output on the HDMI? Why not 8 channel discrete? It says due to Intel driver issues the video output will underscan or overscan at certain resolutions and you can't fix it.
> 
> That makes the HDMI output seem useless.
> 
> ...


So is the Palit Radeon 2600 XT Super a bad choice? The specs on it looked pretty good, especially for only $90. 512 MB DDR3, onboard MPEG4 and VC1 decoding. Is there a big difference between this and the NVidia 8xxx GT series?

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3509663&CatId=1826


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

gregchak said:


> So is the Palit Radeon 2600 XT Super a bad choice? The specs on it looked pretty good, especially for only $90. 512 MB DDR3, onboard MPEG4 and VC1 decoding. Is there a big difference between this and the NVidia 8xxx GT series?
> 
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3509663&CatId=1826


I'll know in a couple of days as I have a 2600 coming for my single core system & a couple of 8600GTs for my dual core SLI system.
For some of the things coming out, the 8800GT is the card of choice.


----------



## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

gregchak said:


> So is the Palit Radeon 2600 XT Super a bad choice? The specs on it looked pretty good, especially for only $90. 512 MB DDR3, onboard MPEG4 and VC1 decoding. Is there a big difference between this and the NVidia 8xxx GT series?
> 
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3509663&CatId=1826


Nope great card. I got mine 1 year ago and modded it up.


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## lakaw (Jul 23, 2007)

If you guys are using your HTPC for movies you need nothing more than an HD3450 ($60) or 8400GS ($50). (Or a 8200 mobo )


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

lakaw said:


> If you guys are using your HTPC for movies you need nothing more than an HD3450 ($60) or 8400GS ($50). (Or a 8200 mobo )


I tend to agree with one major caveat. The low end cards tend not to support HDCP so if you plan on HD movie playback from a disk drive then you will definitely need an HDCP compatible card or chipset. I'm using an 8600GT for HD playback and it works perfectly fine. I stream HD movies from my unRAID server and it plays them with no problems. The only reason to get a higher priced graphics card is if you want to add gaming into the mix.

I did run into an issue with an ATi Sapphire HD 3650 that caused me some strange problems with certain HD movies I had ripped to my unRAID server. The audio played fine but the video was blanked out. This has never been an issue with any of the nVIDIA cards I've used to date (8800GTS 320MB, 8600GT 256MB DDR3 & 8600GT 512MB DDR2). I tried several different drivers but still no joy. I eventually switched back to the 8600GT w/512MB DDR2 RAM and I'm a happy camper once again.


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## lakaw (Jul 23, 2007)

captain_video said:


> I tend to agree with one major caveat. The low end cards tend not to support HDCP so if you plan on HD movie playback from a disk drive then you will definitely need an HDCP compatible card or chipset. I'm using an 8600GT for HD playback and it works perfectly fine. I stream HD movies from my unRAID server and it plays them with no problems. The only reason to get a higher priced graphics card is if you want to add gaming into the mix.
> 
> I did run into an issue with an ATi Sapphire HD 3650 that caused me some strange problems with certain HD movies I had ripped to my unRAID server. The audio played fine but the video was blanked out. This has never been an issue with any of the nVIDIA cards I've used to date (8800GTS 320MB, 8600GT 256MB DDR3 & 8600GT 512MB DDR2). I tried several different drivers but still no joy. I eventually switched back to the 8600GT w/512MB DDR2 RAM and I'm a happy camper once again.


The Asus 8400GS I have is HDCP compliant. I plan on using a 8200 mobo IGP as my main GPU . I am not really a gamer, but for casual gaming the mobo + my 8400gs in Hybrid SLI will allow me pretty good graphics (in theory).

Most HTPC users archive their movies, therefore have AnyDvd. We all know what AnyDvd does with HDCP.


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## mogulman (Mar 19, 2007)

I built one of these mini-PCs this year for an HTPC. I didn't want something that took up a lot of space. I haven't replaced the DVD-R/W with a Blu-ray yet, though. I have a PS3 and Blu-ray drives are too expensive.

http://minipc.aopen.com/Global/index.htm
965DR is the one I used.
It is barebones but comes with a remote control, and DVD R/W. The only thing I added was an Intel Core2Duo 2.2ghz, 4GB Ram, and a 2.5" HD. I have a usb wireless keyboard for it and a USB HD OTA tuner. Running with Vista Home Premium.


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## Kil4Thril (Apr 13, 2008)

mogulman said:


> I built one of these mini-PCs this year for an HTPC. I didn't want something that took up a lot of space. I haven't replaced the DVD-R/W with a Blu-ray yet, though. I have a PS3 and Blu-ray drives are too expensive.
> 
> http://minipc.aopen.com/Global/index.htm
> 965DR is the one I used.
> It is barebones but comes with a remote control, and DVD R/W. The only thing I added was an Intel Core2Duo 2.2ghz, 4GB Ram, and a 2.5" HD. I have a usb wireless keyboard for it and a USB HD OTA tuner. Running with Vista Home Premium.


Did you just link that recently at [H]ardforums?


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I'll know in a couple of days as I have a 2600 coming for my single core system & a couple of 8600GTs for my dual core SLI system.
> For some of the things coming out, the 8800GT is the card of choice.


VOS,

Are you getting the 8800 GTs or the 8800 GTS 512. The 8800GTS 512 uses the newer generaton chip and has better performance. I picked up the HTS512 from Fry's last week. After rebate $229.

Bob


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

azarby said:


> VOS,
> 
> Are you getting the 8800 GTs or the 8800 GTS 512. The 8800GTS 512 uses the newer generaton chip and has better performance. I picked up the HTS512 from Fry's last week. After rebate $229.
> 
> Bob


These should be here today: ASUS EN8600GT/HTDP/512M (2), but since they're coming from Newegg, may go back for 8800GT


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## mogulman (Mar 19, 2007)

Kil4Thril said:


> Did you just link that recently at [H]ardforums?


I don't know what Hardforums is, so I guess the answer would be "no".


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> It might be wiser with a 8800GT.


Why does he need an 8800GT to play video? Not everyone plays Crysis. He was looking at a machine with Intel onboard video, I think a 8600GT is plenty of a step up from there. It gets you all you need for video decode, and a lot of game performance in case you want to play some games.

Doesn't it?


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

I have not posted here in a day or two, and reading through some of the recent threads I have some thoughts about HTPC's and graphics cards.

If the system requires a 650W PSU you really need to think about what you are building. The thermal footprint of a system chewing up that kind of power will be ridiculously high, and will require lots of cooling which translates, most often, into lots of fan noise.

HTPCs, even with 6 hard drives, really should not chew up this kind of power. I have always stuck with 300W or smaller. 

The really high power graphic cards are overkill for an HTPC. Ask yourself this fundamental question when building an HTPC, what kind of graphics chip is in an HR21??

The key thing to focus on is embedded MPEG4 decoding including CABAC within the GPU. Not every high-end GPU supports this. Video games are not MPEG4 video streams, and require a different kind of processing than what an HTPC will need.

If your MOBO has built-in ATI 3200HD or above graphics (ala the 780G chipset from AMD) or equivalent nVidia hardware from Intel you should be fine with an HTPC setup with no additional card.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

*flipptyfloppity* & *lguvenoz*

While I understand [and agree] with both of your position(s), and can't post a "why" about what I posted.
I will still say "it might be wiser" to go with a 8800GT, and have to leave it at that [sorry].


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

I'll stick with my $60.00 pseudo "HTPC" XBOX1 with XBMC. OK, I can't play HD movies due to processor limitations, but I can do almost anything else, and with what I think is the bet Media Center software ever built.

Sorry I know I mention XBMC every time this comes up, but with the addition of Windows and OSX applications it can't be beat.

VOS, I think I can guess at the reason to go with an 8800GT but I will wait for an e-mail (or not) to be sure.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> *flipptyfloppity* & *lguvenoz*
> 
> While I understand [and agree] with both of your position(s), and can't post a "why" about what I posted.
> I will still say "it might be wiser" to go with a 8800GT, and have to leave it at that [sorry].


I can respect the decision. There are always mitigating factors when building these things. I would just look for one that is "miserly" with power. I think you might find a lot of variance in the different models all based on the same chipset.

My current setup actually has an 8600GT in it, but it is fanless. It took work to find one in this config, but I did. Could it go a little faster?? Yeah. Did they tie my hands for overclocking?? Yep. Do I need the extra speed today?? Not by a long shot.

I would just always watch for the power consumption. Especially if you are thinking an "in the living room" HTPC.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jgrade said:


> VOS, I think I can guess at the reason to go with an 8800GT but I will wait for an e-mail (or not) to be sure.


Well, I can confirm that it has nothing to do with media sharing/streaming [currently going on somewhere].


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## bribbans (Aug 30, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> If the system requires a 650W PSU you really need to think about what you are building. The thermal footprint of a system chewing up that kind of power will be ridiculously high, and will require lots of cooling which translates, most often, into lots of fan noise.


A lot of those requirements are for dual SLI or Crossfire cards. I am looking at an Asus EN9600GT Silent to my system and it requires a 300W PSU for a single card & 550W PSU for dual cards.

Thanks for pointing out thegreenbutton.com. It has been useful for programing my remote.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

bribbans said:


> A lot of those requirements are for dual SLI or Crossfire cards. I am looking at an Asus EN9600GT Silent to my system and it requires a 300W PSU for a single card & 550W PSU for dual cards.
> 
> Thanks for pointing out thegreenbutton.com. It has been useful for programing my remote.


First and foremost, glad that thegreenbutton.com helped out  It can be hard to find things sometime, but it's a great resource just like DBSTalk.com

I just always look for the lowest power in anything you are going to put into an HTPC. In general the PSU and all of the components put out less heat if they use less power, and it makes it a lot easier to keep a system quiet.

If you go extreme on power saving and heat reduction even consider some of the more expensive variants on the CPUs. The funny thing is that the chip makers make all of the same chips, but some just use less power. In turn you pay more for the chip, but you can go from say 130W to 45W for the chip by spending more money.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Here is an interesting rev of the 8800GT series of cards: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814134035

While this comes with fans it would be pretty easy to buy your own fans and go with say a low RPM 120mm unit that would still move enough air and make less noise.


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## Kil4Thril (Apr 13, 2008)

mogulman said:


> I don't know what Hardforums is, so I guess the answer would be "no".


It's a computer forum. Someone linked that exact machine you showed above. I am very seriously considering doing an HTPC based on one. I have the "itch" to build, but no real reason to do a full machine for myself.

How well does it run for you? Also, how much heat are we talking?


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> Here is an interesting rev of the 8800GT series of cards: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814134035
> 
> While this comes with fans it would be pretty easy to buy your own fans and go with say a low RPM 120mm unit that would still move enough air and make less noise.


It may not seem obvious, but it is actually really easy to make a setup that makes more noise by using a passively cooled card. This is because with a card like this you need to have more airflow within your case, that means adding more fans. If you add the fans in the wrong spots, they can easily be audible. Whereas with a card, if it has a good cooler on it, it can turn the fan down or off when you're not using 3D mode, and since the video card van is already in the center of the case and not at the front or back, the airflow from the fan can easily be masked.

Basically, if you haven't already done the simpler things to quiet your system like select the right power supply and adjust your case fans to minimum RPM, you probably won't get any audible difference with a passively cooled video card.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> First and foremost, glad that thegreenbutton.com helped out  It can be hard to find things sometime, but it's a great resource just like DBSTalk.com
> 
> I just always look for the lowest power in anything you are going to put into an HTPC. In general the PSU and all of the components put out less heat if they use less power, and it makes it a lot easier to keep a system quiet.
> 
> If you go extreme on power saving and heat reduction even consider some of the more expensive variants on the CPUs. The funny thing is that the chip makers make all of the same chips, but some just use less power. In turn you pay more for the chip, but you can go from say 130W to 45W for the chip by spending more money.


me too.. even my "basic" server in the basment I figuire costs me 20$ a month in electricity.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> Here is an interesting rev of the 8800GT series of cards: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814134035
> 
> While this comes with fans it would be pretty easy to buy your own fans and go with say a low RPM 120mm unit that would still move enough air and make less noise.


ASUS seems to have the right idea for cooling fans on their video cards. I just powered up an ATI chip 2600PRO from ASUS [big fan] and it doesn't seem to make any noise. Tomorrow I'll be looking at the ASUS 8600GT(s) with similar fans for my other SLI system.


----------



## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> *flipptyfloppity* & *lguvenoz*
> 
> While I understand [and agree] with both of your position(s), and can't post a "why" about what I posted.
> I will still say "it might be wiser" to go with a 8800GT, and have to leave it at that [sorry].


How is spending more money on a more powerful card with features you don't need considered "wiser?" I would agree if there's a possibility that the builder may want to add gaming or other more GPU intensive applications to his (or her) HTPC down the road but for HD playback the 8800 is simply overkill. I know because I speak from experience. I had an 8800GTS in my HTPC and switching to a lower-priced 8600GT yielded absolutely no difference in HD playback performance at about 40% of the cost. OTOH, you can pick up an 8800GTS dirt cheap these days. It seems like many of the vendors are dumping their inventory for the newer models that are flooding the market.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

captain_video said:


> How is spending more money on a more powerful card with features you don't need considered "wiser?" I would agree if there's a possibility that the builder may want to add gaming or other more GPU intensive applications to his (or her) HTPC down the road but for HD playback the 8800 is simply overkill. I know because I speak from experience. I had an 8800GTS in my HTPC and switching to a lower-priced 8600GT yielded absolutely no difference in HD playback performance at about 40% of the cost. OTOH, you can pick up an 8800GTS dirt cheap these days. It seems like many of the vendors are dumping their inventory for the newer models that are flooding the market.


You're asking a question that "I have to leave it at that [sorry]" was to try to explain.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

captain_video said:


> How is spending more money on a more powerful card with features you don't need considered "wiser?" I would agree if there's a possibility that the builder may want to add gaming or other more GPU intensive applications to his (or her) HTPC down the road but for HD playback the 8800 is simply overkill. I know because I speak from experience. I had an 8800GTS in my HTPC and switching to a lower-priced 8600GT yielded absolutely no difference in HD playback performance at about 40% of the cost. OTOH, you can pick up an 8800GTS dirt cheap these days. It seems like many of the vendors are dumping their inventory for the newer models that are flooding the market.


Sometimes you may want to consider devices/software that are in the works that may require the more powerful technology.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> ASUS seems to have the right idea for cooling fans on their video cards. I just powered up an ATI chip 2600PRO from ASUS [big fan] and it doesn't seem to make any noise. Tomorrow I'll be looking at the ASUS 8600GT(s) with similar fans for my other SLI system.


Great to know. I had not looked at them in a while, and it does look promising based on your input and my digging into them after hearing your experience.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Sometimes you may want to consider devices/software that are in the works that may require the more powerful technology.


Ken,

I think the disconnect is where the power of the newer GPUs is focused. Most of the higher end GPUs are heavily focused on 3D rendering. For an HTPC this is of minimal value unless the underlying OS needs this.

In the case of Windows Vista, the Aero interface does do a lot of 3D rendering, but this can all be tailored or even turned off to yield optimum performance should the GPU not have enough 3D capability.

I already touched on this a bit earlier, but for an HTPC my personal opinion is that you need to look at the built in decoders for the GPU much more than the overall processing. If you get a screaming fast GPU that lacks an integrated MPEG4 decoder you are not in very good shape for building an HTPC (whether it be just BluRay or DirecTV you want). I would look for maximum decoding in the GPU versus processing.

At the end of the day everyone can pick whatever card they feel best meets their needs. The question is where you strike the balance.

My attitude is that if my HTPC draws significantly more power, or makes significanty more noise than either a Tivo or DirecTV DVR than it has missed the mark.

So I presently go with a nice, mid-level card with built-in decoders for MPEG2 (at a minimum, with MPEG4 preferably). I see MPEG4 being mandatory going forward however based upon the results folks are seeing with benchmarks for BluRay playback with and without integrated MPEG4 decoders in the GPU. This lets me get by with a nice, low power, mid-level processor with dual cores for more than adequate performance.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

My ASUS 8600GT(s) are as quiet as the 2600 Pro.

From KenS's post, I think he "got the idea" what I was trying to say.
Do we now need this much power? no. 
Would it be wiser to have it for future "options"? "I think so". [and I'm not a gamer]


----------



## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> ASUS seems to have the right idea for cooling fans on their video cards. I just powered up an ATI chip 2600PRO from ASUS [big fan] and it doesn't seem to make any noise. Tomorrow I'll be looking at the ASUS 8600GT(s) with similar fans for my other SLI system.


VOS,

This is an interesting card from ASUS: http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=2&l2=6&l3=514&l4=0&model=1700&modelmenu=1

They've got the 8600GT with 512MB, and no fans. Chews up two slots, but depending on the case and overall layout this might be a good choice for some folks.

It would be ideal in my Silverstone case as I have two low speed fans that draw air from the front of the case and exhaust it to the rear with a pretty clear and free path for airflow.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> VOS,
> 
> This is an interesting card from ASUS: http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=2&l2=6&l3=514&l4=0&model=1700&modelmenu=1
> 
> ...


I saw that on Newegg, but passed on it for the one with the fan for my SLI system needing two.


----------



## mogulman (Mar 19, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> First and foremost, glad that thegreenbutton.com helped out  It can be hard to find things sometime, but it's a great resource just like DBSTalk.com
> 
> I just always look for the lowest power in anything you are going to put into an HTPC. In general the PSU and all of the components put out less heat if they use less power, and it makes it a lot easier to keep a system quiet.
> 
> If you go extreme on power saving and heat reduction even consider some of the more expensive variants on the CPUs. The funny thing is that the chip makers make all of the same chips, but some just use less power. In turn you pay more for the chip, but you can go from say 130W to 45W for the chip by spending more money.


Yeah.. which is why I built a system built on the Intel 965 chipset using a notebook CPU. More power savings, quieter.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> My ASUS 8600GT(s) are as quiet as the 2600 Pro.
> 
> From KenS's post, I think he "got the idea" what I was trying to say.
> Do we now need this much power? no.
> Would it be wiser to have it for future "options"? "I think so". [and I'm not a gamer]


I wouldn't consider my HTPC for gaming...I have a desktop for that...HTPC's are all about sucking in and spewing out the content you want to the Screens that you want them on (Sorry about using such highly technical terms). There are some functions that will be required down the road that will use the feature set available in what people now consider "gaming/3D" cards.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

I posted the components for my HTPC back in post #56. AMD 780G, AMD5000+, BLU Ray 

For those interested in power consumption my system uses about 72 watts while internet surfing , 105 watts while watching a Blu Ray movie and 2 watts while it sleeps.

For comparison purposes my HR21 with AM21 uses a continuous 37 watts which is much better then the continuous 53 watts used by my VIP622 when I had Dish network.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I wouldn't consider my HTPC for gaming...I have a desktop for that...HTPC's are all about sucking in and spewing out the content you want to the Screens that you want them on (Sorry about using such highly technical terms). There are some functions that will be required down the road that will use the feature set available in what people now consider "gaming/3D" cards.


The good and the bad of that is what will people be willing to put up with from a cost perspective. While I would not be surprised to see some applications demand this, I would be shocked if *most* HTPCs call for this capability even in the foreseeable future.

Not to jump on the *green* bandwagon, but the fact is people are going to start paying attention to things like their electric bills more and more. When our bill started staying around $300 a month in the winter I can tell you we got a little freaked out, and swapped out tons of bulbs for CFLs and starting paying attention to our use here. In our case we netted a nearly $100 a month savings so far, and when we compare usage to last year we're about 40% down.

That said I think most people will be at least a little leary of anything that is consuming the kind of power a lot of these GPUs do. Especially when combined with power hungry CPUs and disk drives.

Lastly can any of us imagine the cable and satellite companies putting this level of hardware in their boxes?? Or even the BluRay companies??

Like I said earlier people will go with what they want. If I am building an HTPC today though I personally would forego the high end graphics card for a more efficient processor or a better power supply. It will put you in a place that you can upgrade for the future should it be necessary, but will get you something that you can really plop down in your living room.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> I posted the components for my HTPC back in post #56. AMD 780G, AMD5000+, BLU Ray
> 
> For those interested in power consumption my system uses about 72 watts while internet surfing , 105 watts while watching a Blu Ray movie and 2 watts while it sleeps.
> 
> For comparison purposes my HR21 with AM21 uses a continuous 37 watts which is much better then the continuous 53 watts used by my VIP622 when I had Dish network.


These are really good numbers for a home grown PC. Do you know the wattage of the AMD5000+ processor you bought?? I wonder if you might be able to swap it out for one of the 45W units to bring that number down even more.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

lguvenoz said:


> These are really good numbers for a home grown PC. Do you know the wattage of the AMD5000+ processor you bought?? I wonder if you might be able to swap it out for one of the 45W units to bring that number down even more.


The AMD 5000+ Brisbane is a 65W CPU. I wasn't sure the 45W AMD CPU's would have been fast enough but since my build AMD has released the 4450e which I think would be nearly as fast. It is also only $80. The 45W CPU I believe is also a good idea for the780G platform because the Northbridge runs so hot.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> The good and the bad of that is what will people be willing to put up with from a cost perspective. While I would not be surprised to see some applications demand this, I would be shocked if *most* HTPCs call for this capability even in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Not to jump on the *green* bandwagon, but the fact is people are going to start paying attention to things like their electric bills more and more. When our bill started staying around $300 a month in the winter I can tell you we got a little freaked out, and swapped out tons of bulbs for CFLs and starting paying attention to our use here. In our case we netted a nearly $100 a month savings so far, and when we compare usage to last year we're about 40% down.
> 
> ...


lguvenoz,

I can imagine satellite companies needing certain capabilities being available in PCs that are used for displaying HD DRM content and in the very near future.

There are ways to do it without requiring a high-end 3D gpu...take a look at the 780G chipset from ATI and perhaps using hybrid crossfire.

As for the rest of my setup. I have the AMD 4850e with an Antec case with a Green 380W PSU, Green WD HDs and three fans total (1 CPU and 2 case) all on low speed keeping the box cool and silent.

I haven't checked total power use, but I'd guess it's very low without getting into big passive cooling systems.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

Ken S said:


> lguvenoz,
> 
> I can imagine satellite companies needing certain capabilities being available in PCs that are used for displaying HD DRM content and in the very near future.
> 
> ...


I've seen where others report that AMD 4850e whole systems run at 45 watts and 79 watts under load. Do you run Blu Ray okay with that CPU?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

gitarzan said:


> I've seen where others report that AMD 4850e whole systems run at 45 watts and 79 watts under load. Do you run Blu Ray okay with that CPU?


I had a Blu Ray player in it for a bit while doing some testing and it ran with CPU really never going above 20%. That was only for about an hour though. As soon as I get a new BR player (one with the right color faceplate) I'll check for sure. My numbers seem to match up with what others are experiencing though.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Ken S said:


> lguvenoz,
> 
> I can imagine satellite companies needing certain capabilities being available in PCs that are used for displaying HD DRM content and in the very near future.
> 
> ...


Ken,

I agree with your setup being the route to go. My personal estimate is that your system is at least as efficient as gitarzan's and perhaps a little better because of the CPU. The discussion circles around folks looking at things like SLI and Crossfire just for an HTPC. The basic fact is that with present DRM and HD technologies there is no need for any of the high end technologies or current chipsets like the 8800GT. The real need is the embedded decoders, and the ability to embed the DRM function (I think some have this today, but can't swear to it).

If you read through the full review from Tom's Hardware that I posted earlier you will see exactly what I am referring to with a setup similar to yours. In his tests with the AMD 780G chipset (using the ATI 3200 HD GPU) his BluRay playback required only a Sempron processor for the CPU. This is based on the fact the GPU has the actual video decode logic embedded in the GPU, and the CPU was left handling the DRM aspects (this actually kept him from going with a super low performance CPU).

I think the real question is what things today or even in the foreseeable future would drive an HTPC to utilizing SLI, Crossfire, or even the present high-end of GPUs??


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

On a lighter note... Anyone familiar with any technologies that allow the audio decoding to be offloaded from the CPU???


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> On a lighter note... Anyone familiar with any technologies that allow the audio decoding to be offloaded from the CPU???


I may be missing something, but isn't that what my Diamond Xtreme Sound card does?
http://www.diamondmm.com/XS71.php


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> On a lighter note... Anyone familiar with any technologies that allow the audio decoding to be offloaded from the CPU???


Such systems are a waste of money now. This used to be popular, but for over 5 years now the amount of processing power required to manipulate sound is so small compared to that your CPU can do that you would be far wiser to buy the next CPU up for $20 more than to buy a sound card that does onboard audio processing.

The only audio processing that is commonly done on something besides the CPU now is AC3 (DD 5.1) encoding.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> I may be missing something, but isn't that what my Diamond Xtreme Sound card does?
> http://www.diamondmm.com/XS71.php


You are missing something (but that's for another topic some day :lol: ).

...and YES, that's what your sound card is there for...


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I may be missing something, but isn't that what my Diamond Xtreme Sound card does?
> http://www.diamondmm.com/XS71.php


Kind of... The real issue is extracting the audio data from the compressed data whether it be MPEG2 or MPEG4. Not just processing a raw digital stream.

The decoders built into the GPU simply pull the video portion of the compressed stream and decode it. Decoding the audio portion is, to my best knowledge, still done on the CPU.

The processing done, again to the best of my knowledge, within the sound cards is about manipulating a digital audio stream post-decoding.

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong here.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> Kind of... The real issue is extracting the audio data from the compressed data whether it be MPEG2 or MPEG4. Not just processing a raw digital stream.
> 
> The decoders built into the GPU simply pull the video portion of the compressed stream and decode it. Decoding the audio portion is, to my best knowledge, still done on the CPU.
> 
> ...


No, you're dead on.

If a sound card does anything, it's generally just sample rate conversion and track mixing. If you have any goofy effects like echo on, it can do that too. Things like EAX are an effort to try to find other uses for the DSPs on these smart sound cards.

But it's all pretty much a waste of hardware. Even if they did mp3 decoding, that would be a waste too. A 60MHz PowerMac 6100 could play an mp3. We now have 3GHz processors, and sometimes multiple cores, so the amount of CPU consumed to play audio is minor.


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## thekochs (Oct 7, 2006)

Guys,

I've read this thread and I've been a HTPC junky for 5+ years. I even will go out on a limb and deem myself a psuedo expert. I "HAD" a 7TB HTPC serving all types of media thru a matrix switch to all my TVs in the house. It was tied into all my remotes with great WAF.

I agree with VOS....the $$$ you will end of spending on this is inline with owning a boat....money pit. The coolness factor was great up front but I spent man-years working/integrating all the front end software, decoders, drivers, rippers, you name it on software. In the end I had no more than a glorified DVR which I had sunk tons of time/money. With the advent of BR I did the math on putting 25GB+ movies on HDDs along with back-to-the-drawing board software and hardware changes....so I sold all of it on Craig's list. At the end of the day it's just easier life-style wise to put the darn disc in a player, use the HR20 or serve pics/music from HR20 from regular PC.

I know I'm painting doom-and-gloom and applaud those that have the *time*, not just money, to get into this endevour. I will be happy to give any advice on my years of software trial-an-error or hardware recommendations. Happy to help....but glad I left HTPCing behind. :joy:

Obviously, the forum everyone should gravitate to is AVS Forum:
Here is HTPC specific one.............
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=2&forumid=26&x=11&y=11

Funny found one of my old posts on DBSTalk on video out of HTPC.....this was when Media Share was none existant in HR20.........
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=80312

Good luck !!!!


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Or you can spend around $700 and store all of your home video, pictures and music and have it available for any extension device in your home. It's not that tough and not that expensive. It'll be in a nice looking case and make less noise than an HR20.

Yes, you need devices like an XBox 360, PS3, HR20 or similar by your TV, but those may already be there anyway.

Also, in a time when many families have several computers in a home it's never a bad idea to have a central repository for pictures...and should Microsoft ever get Windows Home Server working properly...backups!

Then...get real adventurous and put a webcam on the system (another $50) and load Skype (free) and you have a full-sized video conferencing system. My son's two grandmothers enjoy getting to see and chat with him every week.

It's all about what you want to do. Sometimes people make using computers way, way too complicated. They really don't have to be. The system I'm talking about can be built from parts and up and running sharing media in just a few hours. It should require very little maintenance as well.

Now, don't get me wrong...I also enjoy building my personal machine. That box generally costs me several thousand dollars and includes things like RAID 10 with 4x Raptor drives and quad SLI. I'll tinker with that box for weeks...why? I enjoy it...generally getting it ready to play a game is more fun that most of the games themselves. 

So...like a lot of things...you can make an HTPC an obsession or just put together an inexpensive (relatively) device that will communicate with many other devices in your home and bring those family slide shows and 8MM films to a new level 



thekochs said:


> Guys,
> 
> I've read this thread and I've been a HTPC junky for 5+ years. I even will go out on a limb and deem myself a psuedo expert. I "HAD" a 7TB HTPC serving all types of media thru a matrix switch to all my TVs in the house. It was tied into all my remotes with great WAF.
> 
> ...


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

Ken S said:


> ...
> So...like a lot of things...you can make an HTPC an obsession or just put together an inexpensive (relatively) device that will communicate with many other devices in your home and bring those family slide shows and 8MM films to a new level


I agree with this. I spent around 5-7 hours putting a dedicated HTPC together, installed BeyondTV, and was done. Haven't cracked open the box since. (2 years ago.) Other than occasionally downloading the latest family photos, not much I do with that PC other than watch HDTV.


----------



## Guest (May 18, 2008)

Ken S said:


> With streaming from the HR2X to a computer and the HDPC 20 becoming a reality some people may be interested in building a Home Theater PC. I wanted to point folks to an excellent thread over at this site's, sister forum, AVS Forum.
> 
> I've built many, many PCs over the years. It's very easy to do and can save you hundreds of dollars over purchasing a pre-built box. You can build a very nice Home Theater computer, including a huge (1TB) hard drive for around $700.
> 
> I'd be happy to help anyone with questions.


Ken, that document on AVS forum was last updated almost a year old. Do you have anything with more current hardware recommendations? I usually build my own PCs too, but it's been almost 4 years since the last time I upgraded. My current home PC has an Athlon XP3000+, Asus Nforce2 A7N8X-E system board, and e-GeForce FX 5700LE video card. I'm looking to upgrade to a dual-core processor. Any recommendations?


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> Ken, that document on AVS forum was last updated almost a year old. Do you have anything with more current hardware recommendations? I usually build my own PCs too, but it's been almost 4 years since the last time I upgraded. My current home PC has an Athlon XP3000+, Asus Nforce2 A7N8X-E system board, and e-GeForce FX 5700LE video card. I'm looking to upgrade to a dual-core processor. Any recommendations?


There are a couple of good posts on configurations include some from Ken.


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## Kil4Thril (Apr 13, 2008)

rcoleman111 said:


> Ken, that document on AVS forum was last updated almost a year old. Do you have anything with more current hardware recommendations? I usually build my own PCs too, but it's been almost 4 years since the last time I upgraded. My current home PC has an Athlon XP3000+, Asus Nforce2 A7N8X-E system board, and e-GeForce FX 5700LE video card. I'm looking to upgrade to a dual-core processor. Any recommendations?


The cool thing is that an HTPC doesn't require the retarded amounts of hardware a gaming machine does. I prefer to use "barebones" systems on the rare occasion someone wants one of these. I'm looking at the A_Open listed above as it has WAF- actually, I'll build 2 as the wife needs a new PC anyway.


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

Here a great deal for people looking for Video cards 
http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=GA-385_512


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## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

Grydlok said:


> Here a great deal for people looking for Video cards
> http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=GA-385_512


Cheaper here - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125084

Don't know if there's anything special about that card, but here's a cheaper 3850:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102715

If you want one with what's supposedly a quiet heatsink:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121219

New video cards from ATI will be released around 6/16, so you might want to hold off a few more weeks.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

rcoleman111 said:


> Ken, that document on AVS forum was last updated almost a year old. Do you have anything with more current hardware recommendations? I usually build my own PCs too, but it's been almost 4 years since the last time I upgraded. My current home PC has an Athlon XP3000+, Asus Nforce2 A7N8X-E system board, and e-GeForce FX 5700LE video card. I'm looking to upgrade to a dual-core processor. Any recommendations?


The hardware recommendations are changed/updated all the time...check the edit date for the post. I've actually had the opposite problem where some of his suggestions aren't available yet.


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Cheaper here - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125084
> 
> Don't know if there's anything special about that card, but here's a cheaper 3850:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102715
> ...


That had a special sale for that I caught the tale end of for 96 dollars.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

BudShark said:


> FYI - for those interested. There was discussion of the AMD A780 series boards. NewEgg has an ECS model on sale right now:
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135075
> 
> ...


I'd be wary of ECS boards. I've got three of them in the closet that have failed for various reasons. I think the Gigabyte is a better choice although they seem to be dependent on the memory manufacturer for performance.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Bushwacr said:


> I'd be wary of ECS boards. I've got three of them in the closet that have failed for various reasons. I think the Gigabyte is a better choice although they seem to be dependent on the memory manufacturer for performance.


I had an ECS board that worked fine for about 6 or 7 years before it bit the dust. I think you'll find most current motherboards are limited to specific types of memory and not so much the manufacturer. It just depends on who makes memory that meets your motherboard's specs. You used to be able to buy pretty much any generic SIMM or DIMM and pop it onto your PC. Nowadays there are numerous criteria that has to be met before you install any memory modules, which limits your choices considerably. I always make sure I check the motherboard's manual before purchasing memory to ensure I get some that is guaranteed to work. The manual usually has a full list of approved memory manufacturers and modules that have been tested to work with your motherboard.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

captain_video said:


> I had an ECS board that worked fine for about 6 or 7 years before it bit the dust. I think you'll find most current motherboards are limited to specific types of memory and not so much the manufacturer. It just depends on who makes memory that meets your motherboard's specs. You used to be able to buy pretty much any generic SIMM or DIMM and pop it onto your PC. Nowadays there are numerous criteria that has to be met before you install any memory modules, which limits your choices considerably. I always make sure I check the motherboard's manual before purchasing memory to ensure I get some that is guaranteed to work. The manual usually has a full list of approved memory manufacturers and modules that have been tested to work with your motherboard.


Yeah I use the recommended, still didn't work. I now stick to Crucial which is affordable and rock solid. When I get cheap I buy paired Corsairs.

Ya wanna buy my ECS inventory! :grin: Frys sells the ECS as bundles with AMD chips. If you buy the bundle the total cost is $20 to $40 cheaper than the chip by itself.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Bushwacr said:


> Yeah I use the recommended, still didn't work. I now stick to Crucial which is affordable and rock solid. When I get cheap I buy paired Corsairs.
> 
> Ya wanna buy my ECS inventory! :grin: Frys sells the ECS as bundles with AMD chips. If you buy the bundle the total cost is $20 to $40 cheaper than the chip by itself.


I agree on the memory issues. Stick with brands like Crucial or Patriot. I've always been happy.

Also double-check the motherboard company's website for the detailed specs. I got burned on a server build once because the motherboard only supported 2.2V (I think, can't remember for sure) DIMMs and I had bought 3.3V. Unfortunately memory is one of the things that has definitely gotten complicated even though there are supposedly "standards".


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> I agree on the memory issues. Stick with brands like Crucial or Patriot. I've always been happy.
> 
> Also double-check the motherboard company's website for the detailed specs. I got burned on a server build once because the motherboard only supported 2.2V (I think, can't remember for sure) DIMMs and I had bought 3.3V. Unfortunately memory is one of the things that has definitely gotten complicated even though there are supposedly "standards".


Heck the "recommended" Patriot is what caused me problems, go figure. I long for the good old days where memory just got slammed in and worked. Yeah the voltage is a sticky point which means you have to buy a board that's flexible as to voltage settings. Honestly, it's gotten to the point memory compatibility is the only real issue to a good build.

As an aside, anyone out there tried any of the Linux variants to the dvr build like Mythbuntu? I find the most expensive components now to be the case and OS. Heck I paid $120 for a terabyte of Seagate and $59 for 2G ram but any decent variant of Win costs more (I won't load Vista).


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## Kil4Thril (Apr 13, 2008)

I've had trouble with many different memory/mobo configurations, but I received excellent service from Corsair, Patriot, and OCZ. I was quite unhappy with my Crucial memory, and their service. Also, avoid DFI MOBO's unless you just want to tweak for hours on end. I've never had one fail, but they can be frustrating (and rewarding).


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> *flipptyfloppity* & *lguvenoz*
> 
> While I understand [and agree] with both of your position(s), and can't post a "why" about what I posted.
> I will still say "it might be wiser" to go with a 8800GT, and have to leave it at that [sorry].


Perhaps VOS is involved with a Beta test that requires an 8800x. Iknow the box in front of me says not to use an 8800 for video just games.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Bushwacr said:


> Perhaps VOS is involved with a Beta test that requires an 8800x. Iknow the box in front of me says not to use an 8800 for video just games.


If/when I am lucky enough to be, I also won't be able to post about it.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

Kil4Thril said:


> I've had trouble with many different memory/mobo configurations, but I received excellent service from Corsair, Patriot, and OCZ. I was quite unhappy with my Crucial memory, and their service. Also, avoid DFI MOBO's unless you just want to tweak for hours on end. I've never had one fail, but they can be frustrating (and rewarding).


I almost bought a DFI. But the specs say it's really a LAN gaming board. Patriot is the bane of my existence, never tried OCZ and Corsair has a great rep.

I now use the Patriot as a real bookmark. The same boards where Pariot failed work perfectly with Corsair and Crucial. Memory is touchy nowadays.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> If/when I am lucky enough to be, I also won't be able to post about it.


True, but you would be able to NOT post about it. The plot thickens.

Now you have raised my interest given the 8800 specs and recommended uses. I use a paltry menial 8400GT which plays perfectly. I'm suspicious and now worried.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Bushwacr said:


> True, but you would be able to NOT post about it. The plot thickens.
> 
> Now you have raised my interest given the 8800 specs and recommended uses. I use a paltry menial 8400GT which plays perfectly. I'm suspicious and now worried.


I've got two 8600GTs [for an SLI system] that got here Wed. "Think I need to send them back".


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## Guest (May 20, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> "Video Local Bus" which was an early attempt for a 32 bit bus.


Actually "VESA Local Bus".


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> Actually "VESA Local Bus".


After fifteen years, the brain does fade.


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## Guest (May 20, 2008)

lguvenoz said:


> There are a couple of good posts on configurations include some from Ken.


Thanks, now that I've read through the posts in this thread I see a lot of good stuff.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Bushwacr said:


> Heck the "recommended" Patriot is what caused me problems, go figure. I long for the good old days where memory just got slammed in and worked. Yeah the voltage is a sticky point which means you have to buy a board that's flexible as to voltage settings. Honestly, it's gotten to the point memory compatibility is the only real issue to a good build.
> 
> As an aside, anyone out there tried any of the Linux variants to the dvr build like Mythbuntu? I find the most expensive components now to be the case and OS. Heck I paid $120 for a terabyte of Seagate and $59 for 2G ram but any decent variant of Win costs more (I won't load Vista).


I've used Corsair memory exlusively in the last 2 or 3 PC builds I've put together and never had a problem. The hard part is just finding memory brands and specific modules that are listed in the motherboard's manual and Corsair seems to be the brand that I can find the most often for any motherboard I'm trying to outfit with RAM. I'm with you on the good old days when all you had to do was buy a DIMM and plug it in. Whatever happend to the concept of "plug and play?" I'm surprised Apple hasn't found a way to exploit this issue and blame it on PCs so they could use it in their Mac vs. PC commercials which are usually right on target, IMHO, especially the slams against Vista (I wouldn't touch it with an 11-ft pole).

I haven't tried any of the Linux variants for an HTPC, mainly because I know just enough about Linux to tweak my Tivos and not much else. People that use MythTV seem to really like it but I'd hazard a guess that you don't have as much flexibility with hardware choices as you do with Windoze. HTPC case prices are a bit outrageous but that tends to happen when you target a niche market. If they could sell them in larger quantities they'd be much cheaper. I do think they go a bit overboard with some of the bells and whistles that are completely unnecessary and expensive, like huge LCD displays. They're a nice conversation piece but pretty much useless if you sit across the room from the box.

It is frustrating that the box you put everything in costs more than all of the other hardware combined. There are some inexpensive cases out there, but with those you pretty much get what you pay for. If someone would make a decent slimline case then I'd consider putting together an HTPC based on one of the latest mATX boards with everything onboard and HDMI out. The Hiper Media Center case looked interesting but I think it may have been pulled from the market for numerous issues, mostly dealing with quality, IIRC. They were also hard to keep cool and caused overheating issues from what I've heard.


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## thekochs (Oct 7, 2006)

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Cheaper here - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125084
> 
> Don't know if there's anything special about that card, but here's a cheaper 3850:
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102715
> ...


I'm not positive but these say "HDCP" ready but they don't specifically say they have the ATI UVD (Unified Video Decoder: HD decode blocks) on-board....but they do have the "HD" in front of the 38xx....hmmm. I think there are versions of 3800 series with and without this. This may be the reason for the cheaper price ? Other would be DDR3 vs. DDR4 memory and core clock speed 668Mhz vs. 775Mhz....on more expensive card versions....mostly for highend gamers. However, if you EVER plan to do H.264/AVCHD decode I would highly recommend to make sure you invest the extra $$$ now since I'm sure BluRay will be in your future plans for HTPCs in concept now. Here is good link from ATI on the hardware support: http://ati.amd.com/technology/Avivo/pdf/ATI_Avivo_HD_tech_brief.pdf

Also, been reading alot of reviews and seems everyone recommends the aftermarket cooling systems is wise investment for these cards.


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## thekochs (Oct 7, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> Actually "VESA Local Bus".


Man...almost forgot about VESA bus.

VOS...remember Microchannel....IBM's attempt to recapture ATA. :lol:


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

thekochs said:


> Man...almost forgot about VESA bus.
> 
> VOS...remember Microchannel....IBM's attempt to recapture ATA. :lol:


I owned one of those ! It was actually nice and small .... and ultimately money lost.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

thekochs said:


> Man...almost forgot about VESA bus.
> 
> VOS...remember Microchannel....IBM's attempt to recapture ATA. :lol:


Some things are best forgotten.


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## SubSlr08 (Dec 4, 2007)

chrpai said:


> BS. While I don't doubt that you've built computers and reused components... That just doesn't fly. ATX and PCI wasn't out for another 6-7 years. Nothing from that machine would be useful today in any meaningful way.


That's true, but I've still got a Priam V-185 70mb MFM drive hanging around that I just can't seem to find the heart to toss out! It's about the size of 4 bricks and weighs twice as much, but in it's day it was state-of-the-art and very expensive!
Oh, and I still have an old 5 1/4" floppy just in case these ever become popular again.  
Yeah, I'm a packrat - just ask my wife.:lol:


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Bushwacr said:


> I owned one of those ! It was actually nice and small .... and ultimately money lost.


MCA was more of IBM trying to pull a Mac on the PC marketplace.... I cannot tell you how many people I know hated the MCA cards in PS/2 because it was so expensive when they could get an "old-fashioned" card for so much less money.

IBM does deserve some credit though since we still have PS/2 mice and keyboards (at least until USB fully takes over)


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## Guest (May 21, 2008)

thekochs said:


> Man...almost forgot about VESA bus.
> 
> VOS...remember Microchannel....IBM's attempt to recapture ATA. :lol:


And don't forget EISA, introduced by a Compaq-led consortium in order to forestall widespread acceptance of MCA.


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## thekochs (Oct 7, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> And don't forget EISA, introduced by a Compaq-led consortium in order to forestall widespread acceptance of MCA.


Guess all "standards" are not so *standard*. :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Since this thread is wondering down memory lane, I'll take it another direction too.
What can you do with a HTPC?
Here is something I needed last night.
[short story] NCIS had a two hour season finale last night. We had some wind blow through and my temp mounted dish moved at the 1:17 mark of the "recording" of the show.
So what happened in the last 42 min?
"Plan B": go to CBS.com and watch it on my computer, in postage stamp size.  
Plan B+: use the HTPC to go to CBS.com, select full screen, select Zoom on the TV, and sit back on the couch and watch the last part of the show.  
While not exactly the same as from the DVR, it was so close as to be enjoyable. :hurah:


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

AWESOME show too.
finally, she's gone !!sorry, OT. could not resist.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Since this thread is wondering down memory lane, I'll take it another direction too.
> What can you do with a HTPC?
> Here is something I needed last night.
> [short story] NCIS had a two hour season finale last night. We had some wind blow through and my temp mounted dish moved at the 1:17 mark of the "recording" of the show.
> ...


plan c: hook laptop to tv with hdmi


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

houskamp said:


> plan c: hook laptop to tv with hdmi


laptop/desktop [same] and I use HDMI for 1080p.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> laptop/desktop [same] and I use HDMI for 1080p.


yep.. I actualy pulled my attempt at a HTPC.. way too much heat in my cabnet (as well as the electric bill).. I do however occasionaly hook up the laptop.. just pull out an extra HDMI cable in in the cabnet..


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## Guest (May 22, 2008)

lguvenoz said:


> I say start lower for an HTPC. Go with what should be solid, and plan for an upgrade if it's ever needed. With the 780G I think most folks will be more than happy given that up to 512MB of RAM can be allocated to the GPU.


Are you sure 512MB of RAM can be allocated to the GPU? The specs I read from AMD indicate 256MB.


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

rcoleman111 said:


> Are you sure 512MB of RAM can be allocated to the GPU? The specs I read from AMD indicate 256MB.


I haven't got it yet but I was reading the PDF manual for the Gigabyte board I ordered using the 780 chipset and it definitely listed 512mb as an option for the on board video.


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## astrotrf (Apr 5, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> What can you do with a HTPC?


veryoldschool's question was rhetorical, but I don't mind revealing my ignorance (whilst struggling to hide my stupidity ) by asking the same question for real. What _can_ you do with an HTPC?

Can you feed an HDMI output into an HTPC and watch it live, with trick play? Or have the HTPC record it? Can it send HDMI video and sound to a display? Can an HTPC receive a program guide from somewhere and drive an IR emitter to control, say, a satellite receiver?

I'd appreciate a discussion of what is actually possible with an HTPC ...

Thanks.

Terry (astrotrf)


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

astrotrf said:


> veryoldschool's question was rhetorical, but I don't mind revealing my ignorance (whilst struggling to hide my stupidity ) by asking the same question for real. What _can_ you do with an HTPC?
> 
> Can you feed an HDMI output into an HTPC and watch it live, with trick play? Or have the HTPC record it? Can it send HDMI video and sound to a display? Can an HTPC receive a program guide from somewhere and drive an IR emitter to control, say, a satellite receiver?
> 
> ...


"currently" HD programing is somewhat limited to over the air reception. An HTPC will record OTA TV, can record SD off many receiver [with IR control] and does get guide data from the internet. Also there are some websites that will stream TV. CBS [.com] is one that worked quite well for me. ABC & NBC also do, but not all of their programs are "full size". It really depends on which show you want.
As for HDMI, that is something still in the works, but may be coming down the road.
Add to this DirecTV is working on a USB connected SAT receiver for your HTPC and "sooner" video streaming from your HR20/21.


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## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

My HTPC is sitting in a network rack in the basment. The idea being that the Media Center Extenders (in my case, Xbox 360's) do all of the actual display work. I am currently setting this up with a D11 receiver over S-Video to A Vista Media Center PC in a rack mount case. 

I've hit a few snags in this, the first being that Vista cannot run its main Media Center interface over VNC, which is a requirement since my media server has no console attached to it. The second is that D* can't seem to get my D11 to actually activate. The third is that the tuner card I am using (WinTV-HVR-1800) seems to lock the computer up randomly. 

Eventually I'll get there, but in the mean time I can only dream of having the HDPC and ditching the HR20/21's.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Here's my current setup:

I have an HTPC that is currently setup in our office (lack of HD keeps it out of the living room). The power, noise, and thermal requirements all would allow it to work in our entertainment center if I could get HD.

My HTPC currently has a single Hauppauge tuner card in it with one feed via S-video from an old DirecTV receiver. I have bypassed the IR route, and have the receiver control all implemented via my serial port. I wanted to go with dual tuners, but can't justify activating another receiver just for my "project". I will say getting all of the nuances of the serial interface sorted out took some time, and I actually resorted to coding my own interface as I was not happy with the quality of the plug-ins other folks had written (I like more fault tolerance and better logging).

What does my unit do for me??

I have every single audio CD in our house recorded to the unit. It represents about 300 hours of music. This is all accessible both from the HTPC and over our home network to the XBox360 in our living room. Personally I really like the Microsoft design of the audio library and the various ways to find music. It's a personal choice thing I know, but for me it works.

I have a couple of TV shows recording off of the satellite due to conflicts with our DVR in the living room. Nice thing is I can watch these shows either in our office, or again in the living room via our XBox360. I personally like the playlist features in Vista, but again that's a personal choice. I just think the UI is very "polished" compared to what you get from DirecTV or really any other cable or satellite box. I like the guide a lot, I hate that the banner pops up when it changes channels (quirk of my setup), I want HD, and I miss any sort of auto-correct when coming out of FF.

Otherwise my HTPC is really not used for anything other than these two functions. I could use it to browse the Internet, but quite frankly I don't like the lagtime introduced with the typical anti-virus, firewall, anti-malware, etc. packages out there. In some cases, these products even prevent Media Center extenders from connecting properly (I spent two days trying to track down an issue caused by Microsoft's OneCare product). It would be a nice feature to use, and quite frankly I bet we would use it once the unit can migrate to the living room.

In terms of technical connectivity details.... My current setup utilizes a DVI connection, but supports HDCP (as does my monitor) so it is ready for the new technologies like BluRay that mandate. It has a separate speaker and SPDIF output for audio. There are a good number of HDMI adapters making it to market these days, and many support embedded audio (something to be sure and double-check). To date though, I have not seen anything beyond DD 5.1 for the audio support over HDMI. Probably adequate in today's world, but I would expect it to expand.

The reality is these units are still pretty custom today. They definitely give you the flexibility to have whatever you desire, but your hands are pretty tied with DirecTV implementations today. I would love to move mine to the living room, and probably will as soon as I can get my hands on the HDPC-20.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

rcoleman111 said:


> Are you sure 512MB of RAM can be allocated to the GPU? The specs I read from AMD indicate 256MB.


Even if you're running 32 bit color, 128M is enough.

The great gobs of memory come in when you're doing 3-D and shader stuff.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

harsh said:


> Even if you're running 32 bit color, 128M is enough.
> 
> The great gobs of memory come in when you're doing 3-D and shader stuff.


maybe I wrong [wouldn't be the first time] but isn't it also needed/used during MPEG-4 decoding [on the video card] of HD programs?


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

harsh said:


> Even if you're running 32 bit color, 128M is enough.
> 
> The great gobs of memory come in when you're doing 3-D and shader stuff.


Yes. AMD allowed within the 780G chipset for up to 512MB of memory to be allocated. The chipset also allows the motherboard manufacturers to actually put dedicated DIMM slots on the board that would completely eliminate the "shared" memory, but I do not believe any have done this to date.

Additionally you really won't need much beyond 128MB, and being brutally honest today's technologies probably won't eclipse 256MB for an HTPC.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> maybe I wrong [wouldn't be the first time] but isn't it also needed/used during MPEG-4 decoding [on the video card] of HD programs?


It does need memory, but I don't believe it's a lot. My understandings of the "inner workings" of a graphics card is that the memory really comes to play with rendering of 3D objects. It stores all of the texture maps, polygons, etc. in memory and the renders corresponding views.

For streaming video it simply needs enough room to buffer the input and the output of the stream. It's usually not super intensive on the memory.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

veryoldschool said:


> maybe I wrong [wouldn't be the first time] but isn't it also needed/used during MPEG-4 decoding [on the video card] of HD programs?


Decoding is substantially a matter of operating on two buffers (incremental changes to one to create the other) and there's no need for "scratch memory" because the decoder is simply following explicit instructions as opposed to having to make decisions.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

For those considering the 780G chipset, I recommend this article: http://techreport.com/articles.x/14261/1

It's probably one of the most thorough tests I have seen of this chipset and the Gigabyte motherboard that has proven to be so popular.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> "currently" HD programing is somewhat limited to over the air reception.


This is not entirely true. If you have digital cable with some of the channels unencrypted you can record them with a QAM capable tuner. There are quite a few QAM/ATSC tuners available that can record these shows, one of the most popular being the HD HomeRun.



astrotrf said:


> veryoldschool's question was rhetorical, but I don't mind revealing my ignorance (whilst struggling to hide my stupidity ) by asking the same question for real. What _can_ you do with an HTPC?
> 
> Can you feed an HDMI output into an HTPC and watch it live, with trick play? Or have the HTPC record it? Can it send HDMI video and sound to a display? Can an HTPC receive a program guide from somewhere and drive an IR emitter to control, say, a satellite receiver?
> 
> ...


I use my HTPC primarily for recording OTA HD locals and watching DVDs, HD-DVDs, and Blu-Ray discs. I have six USB ATSC tuners connected to an external hub and I have actually recorded six shows simultaneously while playing back a 7th previously recorded show. It's sort of like a Tivo on steroids. There are lots of PVR programs available and the guide data is free. You can set up recordings from the guide just like any commercial DVR. You can also set up recordings manually if you like. I have two S3 Tivos that I use for recording encrypted shows from FIOS TV to round out my viewing choices.

I rip all of my movies from discs and store them on an unRAID server. UnRAID is a server program that runs in Linux and can be set to boot from a flash drive. You can mix and match both IDE and SATA drives of any capacity. You can also set it up with a parity drive so that if one drive fails you can rebuild the data on a replacement drive with no loss. I like it because you can set up shares across the drive such that if you have a folder with the same name on each drive it will appear as one large folder when you map it. I have a single folder for all of my HD DVD rips and another one for standard DVDs. The actual files are spread across 7 different drives but they appear in a single list when I view them from the HTPC.

Playback of any movie is pretty straightforward. I simply open up the appropriate codec on my HTPC and select the movie I want from a Windows Explorer window that opens. The movie is streamed over my gigabit network to the HTPC. I have my Logitech Harmony 880 remote programmed to control the playback application using EventGhost to translate the IR signals to a keyboard or mouse function that the app can understand and respond to. For standard DVDs, I use a program called ffdshow in conjunction with a playback codec such as ZoomPlayer or TheaterTek DVD. You can set up ffdshow so that the playback image quality makes even the most expensive standalone DVD player look mediocre by comparison. I have a $2100 Marantz flagship universal disc player that's been boxed up and sitting in a closet ever since I set up my HTPC for disc playback. For Hi-Def disc rips I use Cyberlink's PowerDVD Ultra 7.3, version 3319a (newer versions have file and folder playback disabled) or Nero Showtime 4 (p/o the Nero disc burning suite, version 8) with the HD plug-in. I bought the Nero Enterprise edition (i.e., the OEM version bundled with new disc burners) on ebay for about $10 to get Showtime 4 (Showtime 3 bundled with Nero 7 doesn't work properly) and then bought the HD plug-in from Nero for about $25. I use PowerDVD for playing discs ripped to folders and Nero for playing individual files, although PowerDVD will also work for this.

If you want to create a library of your DVD movies then there are several media center apps that will allow you to browse through them and add cover art and descriptions of each one. You can do the same with your music collection and digital photos. An HTPC can be used to organize and display any kind of digital media. I use an external server so that I can add more storage and not take up any space inside my HTPC case. My tuners are also located externally and connected to a powered USB hub. The aforementioned HD HomeRun can be located anywhere you like as it connects to the HTPC via a network connection. It also has dual tuners and is compatible with most of the popular PVR programs.


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## lakaw (Jul 23, 2007)

captain_video said:


> This is not entirely true. If you have digital cable with some of the channels unencrypted you can record them with a QAM capable tuner. There are quite a few QAM/ATSC tuners available that can record these shows, one of the most popular being the HD HomeRun.


Take a look at the Hauppauge WinTV HD PVR (H.264), it usese component capture.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

lakaw said:


> Take a look at the Hauppauge WinTV HD PVR (H.264), it usese component capture.


I'm aware of that card. While it does allow you to capture HD content via component, it's in analog and not digital. You need a set top box or some sort of HD tuner capable of receiving encrypted channels that has a component output. After looking at the specs on the device it doesn't look like it's capable of yielding full HD. Here's what the Hauppauge webpage says about it:



> Two hours of HD recordings, recorded at 5 Mbits/sec, can be burnt onto a standard 4.7 GByte DVD-R or DVD-RW disk for playback on a Blu-ray DVD player.





> Record at datarates from 1Mbs to 13.5Mbs, constant and Variable Bit Rate


ATSC broadcasts can reach a bitrate of 19.5Mbs so it appears that the Hauppauge card is shortchanging you on your bitrates (i.e., detail and resolution suffers). Still, it does provide you with an additional option for recording HD content as well as providing a format compatible for burning your own Blu-Ray discs using standard DVD recordable media. OTOH, I've been able to do the same thing using my S3 Tivos and burning the extracted content as HD-DVDs using standard media and my existing burner for over a year now. I don't lose anything in the process (everything stays in the digital domain) and the bitrate is exactly the same as the original broadcast signal so my resolution and bitrate trumps the Hauppauge capture device. For example, I can usually get between 30 minutes to an hour of HD content on a single DVD-R. This means that I'm getting 2-4 times the information on my DVDs as you would with the Hauppauge captured data.

FYI - the process for creating your own HD-DVDs is outlined in a sticky thread in the HD DVD Software section of the AVS Forums. Information on hacking your S3 Tivo/Tivo HD to enable extraction can be found at dealdatabase.com.


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## Guest (May 23, 2008)

lguvenoz said:


> Yes. AMD allowed within the 780G chipset for up to 512MB of memory to be allocated. The chipset also allows the motherboard manufacturers to actually put dedicated DIMM slots on the board that would completely eliminate the "shared" memory, but I do not believe any have done this to date.
> 
> Additionally you really won't need much beyond 128MB, and being brutally honest today's technologies probably won't eclipse 256MB for an HTPC.


The reason I asked is that the specs on the 780G board from Asus indicate a 256MB maximum. I couldn't find any specs on Gigabyte's site to indicate how much shared memory can be allocated to video with their 780G board. I've had good luck with the Asus boards (haven't used a Gigabyte board so far), but maybe the Gigabyte board would be a better choice in this case. Any thoughts on this?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> The reason I asked is that the specs on the 780G board from Asus indicate a 256MB maximum. I couldn't find any specs on Gigabyte's site to indicate how much shared memory can be allocated to video with their 780G board. I've had good luck with the Asus boards (haven't used a Gigabyte board so far), but maybe the Gigabyte board would be a better choice in this case. Any thoughts on this?


Anybody could have "a bad one" from either maker. "I like Gigabyte" [I'm using one right now for this] and I have had a bad Asus [but my other two PCs are Asus].


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Anybody could have "a bad one" from either maker. "I like Gigabyte" [I'm using one right now for this] and I have had a bad Asus [but my other two PCs are Asus].


I had always used Asus or Intel mainboards, but built my latest PC with a Gigabyte board (P35) and have been quite pleased with it.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

rcoleman111 said:


> The reason I asked is that the specs on the 780G board from Asus indicate a 256MB maximum. I couldn't find any specs on Gigabyte's site to indicate how much shared memory can be allocated to video with their 780G board. I've had good luck with the Asus boards (haven't used a Gigabyte board so far), but maybe the Gigabyte board would be a better choice in this case. Any thoughts on this?


See here: http://america.giga-byte.com/FileList/Manual/motherboard_manual_ga-ma78gm-s2h_e.pdf

The Gigabyte board does allow for 512M for the onboard graphics though.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Anybody could have "a bad one" from either maker. "I like Gigabyte" [I'm using one right now for this] and I have had a bad Asus [but my other two PCs are Asus].


Could not agree more VOS. I have had bad experiences with ASUS, Gigabyte, and ABIT, but I have also had good experiences with all three. There are so many variations from any one maker these days that there is very little to guarantee that all of them are good from any one company.


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## Guest (May 24, 2008)

lguvenoz said:


> See here: http://america.giga-byte.com/FileList/Manual/motherboard_manual_ga-ma78gm-s2h_e.pdf
> 
> The Gigabyte board does allow for 512M for the onboard graphics though.


Thanks for the confirmation (also to the others who replied). After reading all of the comments here, I think I'm going with the Gigabyte 780G ATX board. Everything I've read about it so far is positive. I've read a number of comments about an issue with keyboard stutter on the Asus board (supposedly fixed by a BIOS upgrade) in addition to the 256MB memory limit for video.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2008)

Well, it looks like I got some bad hardware, even though I paid a few bucks extra for an "install and test" option. I installed the new system board, processor, and memory I ordered in my existing PC, but it was DOA. It would power on, but never went through POST. 

At first I thought the problem might be due to using my existing power supply's 20-pin connector with the new system board's 24-pin connector, but it doesn't look like that's the case. The Gigabyte's manual says it should work as long as the separate 4-pin connector that powers the CPU is plugged in, and the vendor's tech support also confirmed that it should work. I even bought a new power supply with a 24-pin connector, but it didn't make any difference. 

I've reinstalled the original hardware and everything is working again. I RMA'd the parts and shipped them back to the vendor. I think I'm going to focus my efforts on buying a new PC instead of building my own.


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

rcoleman111 said:


> Well, it looks like I got some bad hardware, even though I paid a few bucks extra for an "install and test" option. I installed the new system board, processor, and memory I ordered in my existing PC, but it was DOA. It would power on, but never went through POST.
> 
> At first I thought the problem might be due to using my existing power supply's 20-pin connector with the new system board's 24-pin connector, but it doesn't look like that's the case. The Gigabyte's manual says it should work as long as the separate 4-pin connector that powers the CPU is plugged in, and the vendor's tech support also confirmed that it should work. I even bought a new power supply with a 24-pin connector, but it didn't make any difference.
> 
> I've reinstalled the original hardware and everything is working again. I RMA'd the parts and shipped them back to the vendor. I think I'm going to focus my efforts on buying a new PC instead of building my own.


How much memory where you trying to use? I ordered that board and had some minor problems getting it up and running. It wouldn't post and wasn't giving me any error beep codes. I eventually figured out it didn't like running my 2 2gb sticks in dual channel mode. Either would work separately or even both would work if installed in single channel mode so clearly the memory was working. I just went a head and installed everything with it working in single channel mode to get the system up and working and then updated the bios and switched it back to dual channel mode and everything worked fine so it looks like it needed a bios update to handle 2 2gb sticks in dual channel mode. Other than needing to update the bios everything has been working fine for me.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2008)

evan_s said:


> How much memory where you trying to use? I ordered that board and had some minor problems getting it up and running. It wouldn't post and wasn't giving me any error beep codes. I eventually figured out it didn't like running my 2 2gb sticks in dual channel mode. Either would work separately or even both would work if installed in single channel mode so clearly the memory was working. I just went a head and installed everything with it working in single channel mode to get the system up and working and then updated the bios and switched it back to dual channel mode and everything worked fine so it looks like it needed a bios update to handle 2 2gb sticks in dual channel mode. Other than needing to update the bios everything has been working fine for me.


I was using 4GB - two 2GB sticks installed in the first and third slots. I tried using the first two slots and also tried each of the DIMMs individually, but no luck.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2008)

Now that I've decided to buy instead of build my own, I'm trying to decide between the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Vista. Any recommendations would be appreciated.


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

rcoleman111 said:


> I was using 4GB - two 2GB sticks installed in the first and third slots. I tried using the first two slots and also tried each of the DIMMs individually, but no luck.


First and third slot is what worked for me since that puts it in single channel mode. First and second are what is required for dual channel mode.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

evan_s said:


> First and third slot is what worked for me since that puts it in single channel mode. First and second are what is required for dual channel mode.


Thank God they're color coded as with all of mine: 1&3 or 2&4 are DUAL channel.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2008)

Now I'm trying to decide between Vista Home Premium 64-bit vs. 32-bit. Any recommendations? Is either version supposed to work with the HDPC-20?


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

rcoleman111 said:


> Now that I've decided to buy instead of build my own, I'm trying to decide between the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Vista. Any recommendations would be appreciated.


I don't think are a lot of 64 bit apps out here to take advantage of a 64 bit OS. You might not even want to use Vista but instead use XP. A media PC/server doesn't need to have latest, greatest, fastest, biggest. I'd focus on stability and reliability. Right now I have $20 new money in mine spent for a cheap ATX case. The rest of it is assembled from my PC parts boneyard. One must, which will cost if you don't have it, is an RF mouse and keyboard to run it from the couch. I am thinking of upgrading to an HDMI or DVI video card and a 5.1 digital out audio card for $100 or so. I am using my TV's VGA input and receiver's stereo inputs for now so the setup is kind of analog TV quality. Certainly not the greatest but it works. Without a FAST Internet connection you would be able to stream well from things like Netflix.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

The issue of requiring Vista for the HDPC-20 is likely related to needing Microsoft's latest feeble attempt at DRM. Whether they can make that security available in XP is a pretty important question that you have to ask yourself before recommending XP instead of Vista.

As for 32 bit versus 64 bit, you'll have to inventory all of the hardware and software that you use and ascertain compatibility. 64 bit compatibility is actually pretty rare in much of the consumer level software and due to complete incompetence on Microsoft's part, 32 bit drivers and applications may behave unpredictably/catastrophically under the 64 bit version of the operating system.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

harsh said:


> As for 32 bit versus 64 bit, you'll have to inventory all of the hardware and software that you use and ascertain compatibility. 64 bit compatibility is actually pretty rare in much of the consumer level software and due to complete incompetence on Microsoft's part, 32 bit drivers and applications may behave unpredictably/catastrophically under the 64 bit version of the operating system.


Since I've decided to buy a new PC instead of buying parts to upgrade my current system, I'm pretty confident that all of the hardware will be compatible. The software I'm running is another matter - I'll have to do some research to see if all of the programs I use will run on the 64-bit Vista. Or I may just decide to stick with the 32-bit version.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

schneid said:


> I don't think are a lot of 64 bit apps out here to take advantage of a 64 bit OS. You might not even want to use Vista but instead use XP. A media PC/server doesn't need to have latest, greatest, fastest, biggest. I'd focus on stability and reliability.


I was planning to reinstall XP on my existing PC after I upgraded it with a new system board, processor, memory, and hard drive, but I just got tired of messing with after getting some bad hardware. Since most new retail PCs have Vista preinstalled, it really comes down to a choice between the 32-bit and 64-bit versions. I guess I really just need to do some more research to see what kind of problems I might run into with the 64-bit version.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

rcoleman111 said:


> Now I'm trying to decide between Vista Home Premium 64-bit vs. 32-bit. Any recommendations? Is either version supposed to work with the HDPC-20?


If you want to use more than 3GB of RAM you really need to go with Vista 64.


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## Rugged (Sep 16, 2006)

I've been thinking about doing this but I have a few questions first.

1) I've never built a PC in my life. The closest I've ever even been to the inside of a PC was when I pulled the hard drive out of my laptop and put it in an external enclosure. I do know how to follow directions though and am generally considered a smart guy. 
So...should I even try to do this myself?

2) I want to do the following things...will a HTPC be the right choice?
-- act as a server for photos and home movies and music
-- be connected to internet so I can upload media from other computers (can it be wireless?)
-- play Blu-Ray discs, possibly store DVDs 
-- I have an HR20-700 and don't use OTA so I'm not sure how much a tuner card would add value
-- can I pull recordings from my HR20 and put onto the htpc or even burn to a dvd?
-- oh, and I don't play games and such.

-- and since I use an HR20 can this machine also serve as additional storage since I frequently max out the space on that drive?

thanks...I'd love to hear what others think.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rugged said:


> So...should I even try to do this myself?


If you have several months to spend on researching compatible hardware and software, go for it. If you're expecting to go to the store and buy everything and have it work the first time, forget about it.


> I want to do the following things...will a HTPC be the right choice?
> -- act as a server for photos and home movies and music


You would probably be better off with network attached storage. Serving media is its own special kind of self-flagellation.


> -- be connected to internet so I can upload media from other computers (can it be wireless?)


Here, you want it connected to your LAN, but connecting to the Internet is dangerous and the firewall software needed to protect it may interfere with access by other devices. Servers should be wired if at all possible. Serving up giant files wirelessly can take your LAN down to a crawl.


> -- play Blu-Ray discs, possibly store DVDs


Probably not practical at this time. Ripping commercial DVD's is typically illegal and it wastes a lot of live hard drive space.


> -- I have an HR20-700 and don't use OTA so I'm not sure how much a tuner card would add value


Hard drive space on a computer is much cheaper than hard drive space on an HR20.


> -- can I pull recordings from my HR20 and put onto the htpc or even burn to a dvd?


Not digitally at this time.


> -- and since I use an HR20 can this machine also serve as additional storage since I frequently max out the space on that drive?


NO! Not now and probably not in the foreseeable future.

Preemptive note: To those bent on arguing, bemoaning or dissing the DMCA, take your self-righteous attitudes elsewhere. This thread is about assembling an HTPC.


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## kiljoy (Apr 29, 2008)

Rugged said:


> I've been thinking about doing this but I have a few questions first.
> 
> 1) I've never built a PC in my life. The closest I've ever even been to the inside of a PC was when I pulled the hard drive out of my laptop and put it in an external enclosure. I do know how to follow directions though and am generally considered a smart guy.
> So...should I even try to do this myself?


I'm going to disagree. Hardware-wise, it's pretty easy to get up and running. Things are a lot easier now than they were when I built my old HTPC using PowerStrip to get the timings right.



> 2) I want to do the following things...will a HTPC be the right choice?
> -- act as a server for photos and home movies and music


This is a pretty mundane task and honestly any computer on your network could handle it. I just use an old Frankencomputer for the task.


> -- be connected to internet so I can upload media from other computers (can it be wireless?)


Connected to the _inter_net or the _intra_net? If you mean gather media from your other computers, then yes. Again, that's a fairly simple task. (It makes more sense to just move media to the, um, _media server_.) If you mean you want to procure media from, let's call them outside sources, then sure, it can do that. This is of course provided you understand the basics in staying safe on the big, bad internet.


> -- play Blu-Ray discs, possibly store DVDs


This is one of those "but why?" tasks. As stated above, ripping DVDs onto the HDD isn't impossible, but it does take a lot of space. If you have money to burn though, why not? As for Blu-Ray, right now there are solutions to do that, but it's not cheap nor does it offer the ease of use of just using a standard BD player. Audio over HDMI, for instance (though I believe that's just around the corner or starting to show up now). 


> -- I have an HR20-700 and don't use OTA so I'm not sure how much a tuner card would add value


Obviously it wouldn't add value at all. Of course, that HDPC-20 would change all of that if it turns out to be anything other than vaporware.


> -- can I pull recordings from my HR20 and put onto the htpc or even burn to a dvd?


No, but then God gave us bittorrent for a reason.


> -- oh, and I don't play games and such.


Games are pretty demanding, and from what I can tell the critical components of a good HTPC and a good gaming rig aren't anything alike.


> -- and since I use an HR20 can this machine also serve as additional storage since I frequently max out the space on that drive?


You have a better chance of doing coke off Lindsay Lohan's backside than this ever becoming a reality.

Tony


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## Rugged (Sep 16, 2006)

Thanks Harsh and Kiljoy,

You both provided great feedback. Now I know a little more about the correlation between my wants, needs, and the real world of possiblilities.

I'll think this over for a bit and ask continue to ask more questions.

ps...i didn't realize some of this was still 'vaporware' or even maybe illegal.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Rugged said:


> I've been thinking about doing this but I have a few questions first.
> 
> 1) I've never built a PC in my life. The closest I've ever even been to the inside of a PC was when I pulled the hard drive out of my laptop and put it in an external enclosure. I do know how to follow directions though and am generally considered a smart guy.
> So...should I even try to do this myself?
> ...


Rugged,

Putting together a PC is pretty easy. The components all come with instructions and there's many articles on the net about doing it.

Picking the components is not all that hard either. If you go to the first post in this thread there is a link to an AVS post where you can get some up-to-date configurations at different price points that WILL work. Not only that, the machine you end up with will be generally less expensive and have better components than the mass marketed machines.

If you're comfortable with a screwdriver and pushing some cables and plugs into place you can handle the task. Software configuration can be a bit trickier, but generally the motherboard manufacturer gives you a disk and then you run the Windows install or Linux install you're interested in. The actualy physical building of the machine should take about an hour at most...hour and half if you count opening all the boxes and getting the parts out.

Basically, you're looking to buy:

1. Case
2. Motherboard
3. RAM (Memory)
4. CPU (Processor)
5. HD
6. DVD Drive

If you own the DVD there are plenty of commercially available/shareware programs that will rip it to your harddrive. They will take up about 800MB (which on today's large drives really isn't that much) and can serve as a nice backup. It certainly is illegal to transfer those files to others though.

I'd also disagree with Harsh on the internet connection thing. If you have a solid router and run a quality antivirus program you should be fine. Most modern media server programs will work just fine on a local network and will not have issues with firewalls.

I have run very large networks at my jobs and currently have over 25 network connected devices both wireless and wired in my home. As many have pointed out on this forum I'm a long way from a genius...it ain't that hard.

On the other hand if the only reason you're looking at doing this project is to save a few bucks and you have little interest in computers then it may not be for you.

If you have any questions plenty of us here would be happy to help.


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## Rugged (Sep 16, 2006)

Ken S said:


> On the other hand if the only reason you're looking at doing this project is to save a few bucks and you have little interest in computers then it may not be for you.
> 
> If you have any questions plenty of us here would be happy to help.


Ken

thanks for the response. I really do have to think hard about my goals. I do enjoy building things and learning new things and of course I love to save money but at the end of the day I need to define my objective. Based on your comments and the others I might only need to create a media server and not a HTPC.

I'll think some more and post questions as I think of them.

Doug


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Rugged said:


> Ken
> 
> thanks for the response. I really do have to think hard about my goals. I do enjoy building things and learning new things and of course I love to save money but at the end of the day I need to define my objective. Based on your comments and the others I might only need to create a media server and not a HTPC.
> 
> ...


Rugged,

I just built a box that serves as a media server and also allows me to watch DVDs (could be BluRay if I chose), internet programming like Hulu.com and all the network internet stuff on the local that serves as its monitor. I don't have a tuner connected, but could...just don't have the need.

Cost was about $500. I splurged on a couple of things like a 1TB drive...I also saved money because I had an XP Pro license from an old computer. Otherwise I would have probably gone with Linux.

Here's the cost breakdown:

Case/Power Supply = 75 (Nice Antec HTPC case and efficient PSU)
Processor = 80 (45w AMD 4850e)
RAM = 50
Motherboard = 80 (AMD 780G chipset which comes with very nice onboard graphics and sound)
HD = 175 (1TB could have gone smaller and cut the price)
DVD = 25 (I went for a reader/writer)
HDMI Cable = 6
Network Cable = 0 (Have about 20 in the house)

If you shop between about 5 reseller sites you can generally get free/low cost shipping and other combo deals.

Go check out the link in the first post it may be of some help in deciding what to do.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

Rugged said:


> Ken
> 
> thanks for the response. I really do have to think hard about my goals. I do enjoy building things and learning new things and of course I love to save money but at the end of the day I need to define my objective. Based on your comments and the others I might only need to create a media server and not a HTPC.
> 
> ...


Might I suggest you find a thread devoted to building an HTPC such as :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=992503&page=54

which is for the current Gigabyte 780 board and read a lot of it. You'll quickly find out the good, bad and ugly and see what people go through. If the thread totally blows you away you probably don't wanna mess with it. If it piques your interest you might wanna start with a basic pc build and work your way up.

As someone mentioned media servers are a different animal and relatively simple.

One thing you didn't mention was what your spending level is.


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## Rugged (Sep 16, 2006)

Bushwacr said:


> Might I suggest you find a thread devoted to building an HTPC such as :
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=992503&page=54
> 
> ...


Sorry for being gone for so long...it's been a hectic week. I really think media server is the way to go for me right now. I'm going to aim for $500 budget.

I was thinking of getting a refurbished DELL Inspiron desktop. They have prices in the $400 range. it's basically an intel core 2 duo with 2gb memory and 500gb hard drive. what other essentials should I look for.

and if I were to build this myself, should I consider.


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## Bushwacr (Oct 31, 2007)

Rugged said:


> Sorry for being gone for so long...it's been a hectic week. I really think media server is the way to go for me right now. I'm going to aim for $500 budget.
> 
> I was thinking of getting a refurbished DELL Inspiron desktop. They have prices in the $400 range. it's basically an intel core 2 duo with 2gb memory and 500gb hard drive. what other essentials should I look for.
> 
> and if I were to build this myself, should I consider.


Well there are other options.

If your priority is music, photos and home movies .............

I stream the above using Tversity (free) and a Dlink DSM520 ($159) from my main PC. I also stream OTA to it after I convert it to MPEG4 HD quality. I use wireless g since I'm too lazy to wire the DSM. I rip my DVDs using DVDFab and those are handled too except for menu handling.

Oh, my main computer is dual core AMD 5600, Nvidea 8500GT, 2 Gig Ram and a kworld tuner to grab OTA.

Personally I'd buy a BD standalone before using a home build for playing BD DVD. BD is a big load for current processors/video combinations unless you know what you are doing.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

I got excited about an LG HD-DVD, Blu-ray combo drive for $150. Unfortunately it just can't be popped into any PC and I'm not that clear what is really required. Best I could understand, you do need a Duo-core processor, 2gb ram, and an HDCP capable video card with DVI/HDMI out. You also need audio hardware that will pass Dolby Digital so I guess that would be a true HDMI card or something that has digital coaxial or audio out PASSTHROUGH. PASSTHROUGH emphasized as some down code to two channel. It also appears you need a played/codec software package costing $100 or so. I imagine you need Vista too.

I gave up as it appeared big bucks were required over the cost of standalone BD player.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

schneid said:


> I got excited about an LG HD-DVD, Blu-ray combo drive for $150. Unfortunately it just can't be popped into any PC and I'm not that clear what is really required. Best I could understand, you do need a Duo-core processor, 2gb ram, and an HDCP capable video card with DVI/HDMI out. You also need audio hardware that will pass Dolby Digital so I guess that would be a true HDMI card or something that has digital coaxial or audio out PASSTHROUGH. PASSTHROUGH emphasized as some down code to two channel. It also appears you need a played/codec software package costing $100 or so. I imagine you need Vista too.
> 
> I gave up as it appeared big bucks were required over the cost of standalone BD player.


You could run one fine with a relatively low-end processor and an AMD 780G chipset motherboard. No need for a separate video card.

Software, I'm not sure of although I hear a lot of people use Power DVD. It's possible that VLC could do it as well.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rugged said:


> I was thinking of getting a refurbished DELL Inspiron desktop.


The Inspiron series typically has on-board graphics and sound which would likely need to be disabled and replaced in a media player. As a server, it should be more than adequate.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

From Cyberlink web site:

Operating System

* Windows XP or Windows Vista

Screen Resolution

* 1920 x 1080

Screen Ratio

* 16:9 widescreen recommended

Processor

* Intel

Minimum: Pentium 4 541 (3.2 GHz), Pentium D 840 (3.2 GHz), Pentium D 930 (3.0 GHz), 935 3.2GHz or 940 (3.2 GHz), Core Duo T2400 (1.83 GHz), Pentium M 755 (2.0 GHz), Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8 GHz or T5600 1.83 GHz

Recommended: Pentium EE 840 (3.2 GHz) or 955 (3.4 GHz) or 965 3.73 GHz, Pentium D 945 (3.4 GHz), 950 (3.4 GHz) or 960 (3.6 GHz), Core Duo T2500 (2 GHz), T2600 (2.16 GHz) or T2700 (2.33 GHz), Core 2 Duo E6300 (1.8 GHz), E6400 (2.13 GHz), E6600 (2.4 GHz), E6700 (2.66 GHz) or X6800 (2.93 GHz), T7200 (2.00 GHz), T7400 (2.16 GHz), T7600 (2.33GHz) Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4 GHz, Core 2 Extreme QX6700 2.66 GHz, or X6800 2.93 GHz
* AMD

Minimum: Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (2 GHz) or 4000+ (2 GHz), Turion 64 X2 TL-50 (1.6 GHz), TL-52 (1.6 GHz) or TL-56 (1.8 GHz)

Recommended: Athlon 64-FX, FX-60 (2.6 GHz) or FX-62 (2.8 GHz), Athlon 64 X2 4200+ (2.2 GHz), 4400+ (2.2 GHz), 4600+ (2.4 GHz), 4800+ (2.4 GHz) or 5000+ (2.6 GHz), Turion 64 X2 TL-60 (2.0 GHz)

Memory

* XP: 512 MB
* Vista: 1 GB

Hard Disk Space

* 150 MB

Graphics Card

Intel:
* 965G graphics software decoding (with Intel Core 2 Duo E6700 (2.66GHz) processor or AMD Athlon 64 FX-62 (2.8GHz) processor or above recommended)
* Recommended driver version: 15.8 or later
* Video RAM: 256 MB or above.

nVidia:
* GeForce 7600 GT, GeForce 7800 GTX 512, GeForce 7900 GX2, GeForce 7900 GTX, GeForce 7950 GX2, GeForce 8400 series, GeForce 8500 series, GeForce 8600 series, GeForce 8800 series
* Recommended driver version: 174.53 or later
* Video RAM: 256MB or above.

ATI:
* Minimum: ATI Radeon X1600 series, X1800 series, X1900 series
* Recommended: ATI Radeon HD 2400, 2600, 2900 series, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3400, 3600, 3800 Series
* Recommended driver version: 8.44 or later
* Video RAM: 256 MB or above.

Sound Card

* PCI sound card or on-board audio

Optical Drive

* Blu-ray Disc drive for playing Blu-ray Discs and DVDs

Internet Connection

* Internet connection required for product activation and some upload/download features.

Not as heavy a load as I thought but would cost me $$300 to $400 to buy an HDCP AGP DVI video card, a combo HD-DVD Blu-ray drive, and the player/codecs to MAYBE get my old ASUS P4 MoBo to work. The only motivation would be to be able to play my few obsolete HD-DVDs. Now if NetFlix would start streaming in HD and Dolby Digital that would force a rethink.

Update: and my P4 is only 2.6ghz so I need another $75-$100. Guess I'll stick with DVDs until BD 2 comes out or retire my core-duo Vista box.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

I found this cool IR PC On/Off switch for my HTPC. Very easy to install if you are comfortable drilling the peep hole and working inside your PC. Pretty much plug and play. Works like a charm and much better than expected. The Off function does a Windows Shutdown rather than just pull the plug.

http://www.simerec.com/PCS-2.html


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