# DSWM-30 switch



## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Looks like it is finally available or will be soon:

http://www.northamericancable.com/shopping/prodID.php?pid=4386

Interestingly, they state it has only 13 tuners per output for a total of 26. There's another product called "DSWM-30HP" (high power? hotel property?) which is listed as the high output version for properties with loop through wiring - i.e. a dual output version of the DSWM-13. I wonder if they got the listing wrong for the non-HP version, like how Solid Signal always has messed up listings? Or maybe it is playing the same 13/21 tuner game the reverse band LNB does, so naming it "30" sort of split the difference 

The other oddball thing is, why does it have a 13v power output over on the side? (There's a better picture of it on the other site) Power for the PI/amp? Power for a DECA? As expected, no legacy outputs. Looks about the same size as a SWM8, maybe a tiny bit smaller.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

One possible reason it might be limited to 26 tuners - maybe it uses a single channel stacking switch chip, and that's all it is capable of doing? Some are limited to 24, others can do up to 32 - so they could use the latter but maybe if it is providing two outputs that number goes down.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Looks like it is finally available or will be soon:
> 
> http://www.northamericancable.com/shopping/prodID.php?pid=4386
> 
> ...


I could replace my two SWM16s with this, no? Don't think I really want to go thru that. Interesting tho.

Rich


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Once it is shipping, presumably you could.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

And a DIRECTV tech also posted on the other forum that a new version of the D2 Lite enclosure to accommodate the DSWM-30 and I assumr six sat. inputs now, has been developed.

But no pictures or documentation that I've found yet ....

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I wonder how many DSWM30s they'll use in the new one? The existing model uses two SWM16s and supports 8 apartments. Though with most people getting Genies now it only supports more than 4 apartments if there are older customers who have HR2x/H2x instead. If they only want to support 4 apartments, two DSWM30s will work fine even when HS17 is the default install.

Since the DSWM30 is smaller, there should be room for four. If they didd, they'd need six 4 way splitters diode steering splitters (instead of five 2 way splitters) and four 2 way SWM splitters. That assumes power delivery works the same on the DSWM30, i.e. can be input on SWM1 or the dedicated PWR port. The extra split on the LNB would reduce the accepted cable length without an amp though.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

I'm just confused by RB ports both labeled as outputting "18v" to the new RB legacy LNBF.

Shouldn't one port be 18v for the even transponders from 99cr and 103cr. And the other port 13v for the odd transponders from 99cr and 103cr as in my illustration?










How can the LNB know which transponder set to send on either coax to the switch if both are at an 18v control voltage level?

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

That's always been the question of how the LNB would be signaled to output reverse band to the 5th and 6th outputs. Even if it was labeled 18v/13v like expected, if there was no tone or other special signaling, you would either have to keep track of which coax was which, or check them with a meter during installation.

The other possibility I'd considered before was using DiSEqC commands on the reverse band inputs, without which you'd simply end up with additional 99/101 selections. In that case, it doesn't matter whether the sixth port is 18v or 13v, since the voltage wouldn't have anything to do with telling the LNB what to output, but DiSEqC. Directv already has such a protocol, in the form of the undocumented commands the receivers would use in legacy mode to select a flex port.

Maybe the DSWM30 outputs DiSEQc commands from the two reverse band ports? Assuming DiSEqC will pass through a polarity locker, I don't see any reason why not. That would imply that connecting an older SWM switch to a reverse band LNB would not work for getting the reverse band outputs, unless there was also a DSWM30 connected to send those commands. Though I guess it is possible the SWM8/SWM16 have always been sending DiSEqC commands out their Flex 1 & Flex 2 ports, maybe even polarity lockers do. Anyone have the ability to check?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> That's always been the question of how the LNB would be signaled to output reverse band to the 5th and 6th outputs. Even if it was labeled 18v/13v like expected, if there was no tone or other special signaling, you would either have to keep track of which coax was which, or check them with a meter during installation.
> 
> The other possibility I'd considered before was using DiSEqC commands on the reverse band inputs, without which you'd simply end up with additional 99/101 selections. In that case, it doesn't matter whether the sixth port is 18v or 13v, since the voltage wouldn't have anything to do with telling the LNB what to output, but DiSEqC. Directv already has such a protocol, in the form of the undocumented commands the receivers would use in legacy mode to select a flex port.
> 
> Maybe the DSWM30 outputs DiSEQc commands from the two reverse band ports? Assuming DiSEqC will pass through a polarity locker, I don't see any reason why not. That would imply that connecting an older SWM switch to a reverse band LNB would not work for getting the reverse band outputs, unless there was also a DSWM30 connected to send those commands. Though I guess it is possible the SWM8/SWM16 have always been sending DiSEqC commands out their Flex 1 & Flex 2 ports, maybe even polarity lockers do. Anyone have the ability to check?


Yeah possible ....

But I really thought it would be just a simple case of a 2 x 2 internal 18v/13v multiswitch in the RB legacy LNB for those two new ports. So it wouldn't matter which way the two extra RB ports on the LNB the tech. connected to the RB ports on the DSWM-30 switch.

Both are 18v/13v capable which I thought was evidenced by no apparent voltage pol. label on those two new ports of the LNB.

But the 18v label on both RB ports of the DSWM-30 throws a wrench into this assumption so far ...

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah possible ....
> 
> But I really thought it would be just a simple case of a 2 x 2 internal 18v/13v multiswitch in the RB legacy LNB for those two new ports. So it wouldn't matter which way the two extra RB ports on the LNB the tech. connected to the RB ports on the DSWM-30 switch.
> 
> ...


If they hung an extra 2x2 multiswitch off for those two ports then the installer would need to connect those separately. He'd have to use a meter to figure out whether a coax was connected to the 4x4 or the 2x2. Not saying that's difficult, but it adds one more thing you have to get right.

It isn't even clear from the labeling on the DSWM30 whether one port is all evens from 99/103 and the other all odds like the rest, or one is all 99 both even and odd and the other all 103. It kind of looks like it might be the latter.

This is why I'm leaning towards DiSEqC commands being used to select those ports. Then the installer doesn't need to do anything special, and obviously they'd design the DSWM30 to send out the necessary commands to select the correct reverse band output. The question is whether that's something new or has been how things have worked all along...

Polarity lockers seem to have the ability to use either 13v or 18v on at least some ports. The gray Directv labeled PI-6S shows "13v/18v" on all six ports, some models of Sonora's PI-6S have a circuit diagram on the front that clearly shows it has the ability to use either 13v or 18v on flex 2, though other (newer? older? not really sure...) versions of Sonora's PI-6S show both flex ports at 18v (well 20v actually but same thing)

So, assuming any of them are actually capable of either voltage, how the heck would they know which you want? There are only two ways, they are signaled by attached equipment either via voltage or via DiSEqC. Voltage signaling would be stupid, what if you had a long run to the polarity locker and the 18 volts became 13 volts by the time it got there? You wouldn't get what you want - one of the reasons polarity lockers exist is to prevent problems like that. So it seems it would have to be DiSEqC that tells the polarity locker what to do.

If so, what equipment could be sending those DiSEqC commands, is it switches or is it receivers? DiSEqC is passed by turning the 22 KHz tone on/off and that low of a frequency would be blocked if DC is blocked. Only a receiver connected to the power passing port would even have any possibility of passing DiSEqC or voltage signals through a SWM to the polarity locker, and there's never been any indication that SWM only receivers output voltage or DiSEqC, so I think we can conclude it would have to be the SWM that tells the polarity locker what to do.

Of course, the SWM has no more idea whether the polarity locker should send 13v or 18v out of a flex port that was capable of using either voltage, so it would have to be told via SWM commands from receivers. Or theoretically via a firmware update, if it is possible for the firmware in a SWM8/SWM16 to be updated (no one has ever proven this either way) But how would it tell? Again, with voltage signaling being stupid, the SWM would tell the polarity locker via DiSEqC.

None of this establishes whether the DSWM30 selects the reverse band ports via DiSEqC, or whether the SWM8/SWM16/SWM32 would be able to do the same if connected to a reverse band LNB, but it shows this sort of thing was at the very least considered long ago. You have things set up so you can do this, why not make use of it? The use of 18v on both reverse band ports could simply be due to some polarity lockers not being smart enough to switch between 18v and 13v like others can. So long as they will pass DiSEqC through to the LNB on the flex ports, that's all that's required.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> If they hung an extra 2x2 multiswitch off for those two ports then the installer would need to connect those separately. He'd have to use a meter to figure out whether a coax was connected to the 4x4 or the 2x2. Not saying that's difficult, but it adds one more thing you have to get right.
> 
> It isn't even clear from the labeling on the DSWM30 whether one port is all evens from 99/103 and the other all odds like the rest, or one is all 99 both even and odd and the other all 103. It kind of looks like it might be the latter. ...


But studying the tps. survey from the AIM with a recent database update which includes the upcoming RB IFs in the following iamanedgecutter review document on the 5D2RB. How can it be any other than even number tps. on one coax and the odds on the other from the LNB since the even and odd tps. IFs use the same down-converted Ka-lo and hi bands?

And I meant a 2x2 internal multiswitch in the LNB to relieve the tech. from having to concern themselves with which specific RB port either of the two new coax runs are connected to.

But yes, the tech will still need to keep separate the four standard Ka/Ku coax lines going through the LNB support arm from the two RB ones which will apparently run along the outside of it and possibly will use cable clamps or zip ties to secure the lines to the outside of the support arm.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

That is to summarize...

According to the AIM tp. survey 99cr even and odd tp. IFs are between 250-650 MHz.

And 103cr even and odd are between 1650-2050 MHz.

So they would interfere of course if they were not separated by evens on one coax and odds on the other ...

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I forgot about that 5D2 transponder survey, it is definitely even/odd like the rest. But that doesn't make a 2x2 switch where both use 18v (as clearly indicated on the DSWM30) any more feasible. If it doesn't support either voltage or DiSEqC signaling to select polarity it would have to automatically give you odds on one and evens on the other. Meaning it wouldn't be a switch, just two hardwired ports.

Either way, assuming a matching set of transponders are used (presumably all 36 eventually) then 99/103 even and 99/103 odd will look identical to the meter. If so, how is the installer supposed to tell them apart? Because he has to, or 50% of the installs will get evens on what used to be known as "flex port 1", and the other 50% will get the odds there. The receivers could figure that out and deal with it, but why make things harder? The AIM has a tuner built in - it wouldn't be able to provide SNR if wasn't demodulating the signal. So theoretically it could get some identifying information out of one of those transponders that tells the meter "you're connected to 99rb even" so you'll know what to hook up where.

I still think the DiSEqC signaling used for flex port selection is the way to go. They've been using that from before the KaKu LNB was introduced, so they wouldn't need to develop anything new, and makes the installs as easy as possible.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> So theoretically it could get some identifying information out of one of those transponders that tells the meter "you're connected to 99rb even" so you'll know what to hook up where.


If the AIM's FW can parse some SI tables, then each tpn have dedicated PID 0x0810 with TID/NID info short tables.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I was able to get some good information from a "highly placed Directv source" who wishes to remain anonymous 

Regarding the 26 / 30 tuner thing. The DSWM30 supports 30 tuners, 15 on a side, but it is like the 13/21 tuner thing with the reverse band LNB where some older receivers can only see 13. As expected, there is no DECA crossover between the halves.

The "HP" version designed for hotels has an output of around 0 dbm, so it would NOT be good if you tried to use it at home!

The 13v output is for the convenience of installers who may want to run fans or lights in equipment closets. It doesn't have a designated use, you can use it for whatever you can plug into it that uses less than 500 ma. Sonora sells 12v fans that connect to RG6, maybe this was their idea?

The 5th and 6th outputs on the DSWM30 are "18v" and "0v" (signal only) When he asked the guy who designed it why that 6th output was labeled 18v, he was told they were trying to confuse people!  He said that a legacy RB LNB can only feed the four primary lines into an analog SWM, the other two don't work.

I'm asking him for clarification on those two outputs (looks like the installer has to track those two individually from LNB to switch/polarity locker) and exactly why an analog SWM won't work since we know both flex ports work on a SWM8/SWM16 (i.e. a 95* and 72.5* dish) so I'm really curious why it wouldn't work for the full 250 - 2150 MHz range.

He said both the DSWM30 and RB LNB are available now only as part of approved packages for lodging, but should be available for commercial & residential use in early Q3. They will have some type of "diplexer" that will combine the outputs of the 5th output of the RB LNB with a World Direct dish to go to the 5th output of the DSWM 30.

He said most likely we will see reverse band start lighting up around Q3 '18. We got a long time to wait!


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Got some further clarification. The installer is supposed to track the 5th and 6th lines from LNB to switch/polarity locker. The 6th output of the LNB has a DC block on it, so it will NOT be possible to use it to power the LNB. That fact can be used to tell the two otherwise identical RB outputs apart. You can use a meter (even a non-AIM) to tell the 18v RB output apart from the 18v 99/101 even polarity by the presence of 101's transponders. If the installer wants to get a reading on the 6th output at the dish for troubleshooting, there's a special diplexer that will allow sending voltage to the 5th output to power the LNB and receive signal to the meter from the 6th output.

After a bit of thought I even figured out a way to make do with just a receiver (i.e. for someone like me who doesn't have a meter) If you connect a receiver in legacy mode, and try all six outputs, the four that work will be the standard four KaKu. To determine which is which of the last two, connect one to the 1st output (i.e. 99/101 even) to provide power and the other to the 6th output. If you can see any reverse band transponders from a SWM attached receiver then the 6th output is correct, otherwise move it to the 5th. The other goes in the remaining RB port, and finally you connect the four KaKu you first identified.

The reason why the ASWMs won't work for reverse band isn't that they can't, but that the receivers aren't and likely never will be programmed for it (i.e. sounds like you won't have an option to select the combination of legacy RB LNB and analog SWM) The SWM8 and SWM32 are already out of production, and they are making the last SWM16s now. Given that, they feel there's no reason to waste resources making reverse band work with the old SWMs.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Did he happen to say why the older receivers don't see more than 13 in theory but some people have tested and they did? Is it RB related?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> Got some further clarification. The installer is supposed to track the 5th and 6th lines from LNB to switch/polarity locker. The 6th output of the LNB has a DC block on it, so it will NOT be possible to use it to power the LNB. That fact can be used to tell the two otherwise identical RB outputs apart. You can use a meter (even a non-AIM) to tell the 18v RB output apart from the 18v 99/101 even polarity by the presence of 101's transponders. If the installer wants to get a reading on the 6th output at the dish for troubleshooting, there's a special diplexer that will allow sending voltage to the 5th output to power the LNB and receive signal to the meter from the 6th output.
> 
> After a bit of thought I even figured out a way to make do with just a receiver (i.e. for someone like me who doesn't have a meter) If you connect a receiver in legacy mode, and try all six outputs, the four that work will be the standard four KaKu. To determine which is which of the last two, connect one to the 1st output (i.e. 99/101 even) to provide power and the other to the 6th output. If you can see any reverse band transponders from a SWM attached receiver then the 6th output is correct, otherwise move it to the 5th. The other goes in the remaining RB port, and finally you connect the four KaKu you first identified.
> 
> The reason why the ASWMs won't work for reverse band isn't that they can't, but that the receivers aren't and likely never will be programmed for it (i.e. sounds like you won't have an option to select the combination of legacy RB LNB and analog SWM) The SWM8 and SWM32 are already out of production, and they are making the last SWM16s now. Given that, they feel there's no reason to waste resources making reverse band work with the old SWMs.


Hummm ...

Very good and interesting info. Thanks for tracking all this down. Though unless it was just a joke, I see no basis for the deceptive label of "18v" for port 6 on the DSWM-30 when it really should be "0v."

So I take it that the way a tech. may determine which of the two RB lines are connected to which RB port on the LNB is that the AIM will only be able to power and then receive any RB tp. signal outputs when it's connected to the coax run to port 5 of the LNB?

(This is assuming for indentfication purposes none of the six coax runs are connected to the switch yet, so only the AIM supplies pwr. to whatever coax to the LNB it's connected to of course).

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Hummm ...
> 
> Very good and interesting info. Thanks for tracking all this down. Though unless it was just a joke, I see no basis for the deceptive label of "18v" for port 6 on the DSWM-30 when it really should be "0v."
> 
> ...


Pretty sure it was just a joke, and I'll bet if you measured the 6th port on the DSWM30 it would output 18v as claimed. It is just that when connected to a RB LNB it won't, because of the voltage blocker on the LNB's 6th port.

While he said installers are supposed to keep track of the lines, I don't think it would matter if you have an AIM. Just connect them however to the LNB and then at the polarity locker / switch test each one in turn until you've found the 5th and 6th, setting one aside until you have them both. The 5th will be the one that has no Ku transponders (or has tpn 1 but not tpn 3 if you've diplexed in the WD dish) and the 6th is the one that doesn't work at all (so you would want to retest it after you've connected the 5th to verify it now works) Then you connect the other four wherever. How long does it take to take a half dozen meter readings, a minute? Keeping track of which coax is which or toning them won't save time, so why bother?

I suppose you could always follow Sonora's color coding (blue red green yellow white black) if you want to make things simple. I used blue/red/green/yellow jumpers between my patch panel and PI-6S, and from the splitters to the SWM16s, just to make it easier to trace. I'll probably use black/white for the last two when I get a RB LNB. Might be a little too colorful for a roof though, even if I had to replace the coax runs to the dish I wouldn't want that


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> Pretty sure it was just a joke, and I'll bet if you measured the 6th port on the DSWM30 it would output 18v as claimed. It is just that when connected to a RB LNB it won't, because of the voltage blocker on the LNB's 6th port.
> 
> While he said installers are supposed to keep track of the lines, I don't think it would matter if you have an AIM. Just connect them however to the LNB and then at the polarity locker / switch test each one in turn until you've found the 5th and 6th, setting one aside until you have them both. The 5th will be the one that has no Ku transponders (or has tpn 1 but not tpn 3 if you've diplexed in the WD dish) and the 6th is the one that doesn't work at all (so you would want to retest it after you've connected the 5th to verify it now works) Then you connect the other four wherever. How long does it take to take a half dozen meter readings, a minute? Keeping track of which coax is which or toning them won't save time, so why bother?
> 
> I suppose you could always follow Sonora's color coding (blue red green yellow white black) if you want to make things simple. I used blue/red/green/yellow jumpers between my patch panel and PI-6S, and from the splitters to the SWM16s, just to make it easier to trace. I'll probably use black/white for the last two when I get a RB LNB. Might be a little too colorful for a roof though, even if I had to replace the coax runs to the dish I wouldn't want that


You are worrying too much about nothing. This is easy, techs usually have two cable boxes, run a dual with ground and a dual without ground, that's your KaKu signals, then second trip run another dual without ground, those wires are "labeled" one has writing on it the other one doesn't. Use that one for RB signals. If you have three caddies then mark the box with RB and done.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

peds48 said:


> You are worrying too much about nothing. This is easy, techs usually have two cable boxes, run a dual with ground and a dual without ground, that's your KaKu signals, then second trip run another dual without ground, those wires are "labeled" one has writing on it the other one doesn't. Use that one for RB signals. If you have three caddies then mark the box with RB and done.


Yeah forgot about those dual coaxes installers are using, that would make it even easier.

I wonder if Directv will have some 6 coax ground blocks made, or use two?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Oh yeah, you said ...



slice1900 said:


> ... Regarding the 26 / 30 tuner thing. The DSWM30 supports 30 tuners, 15 on a side, but it is like the 13/21 tuner thing with the reverse band LNB where some older receivers can only see 13. *As expected, there is no DECA crossover between the halves *. ...


You say there is no internal DECA crossover bridge between the two SWM outputs?

And that this is as expected?

Why?

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Oh yeah, you said ...
> 
> You say there is no internal DECA crossover bridge between the two SWM outputs?
> 
> ...


Because DECA is limited to 16 nodes. The switch is mostly intended for commercial / MDU, and you wouldn't want a crossover for either market.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> Yeah forgot about those dual coaxes installers are using, that would make it even easier.
> 
> I wonder if Directv will have some 6 coax ground blocks made, or use two?


Good Q! When 36" dish is used two ground blocks are required, but they are separate dishes, needing two separate grounds, DIRECTV doesnt like bonding one dish to another like dish allows (or used to)

Sine this is one dish, I will assume DIRECTV would need a 6 port ground block otherwise to grounds would be required for a single dish.

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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> Because DECA is limited to 16 nodes. The switch is mostly intended for commercial / MDU, and you wouldn't want a crossover for either market.


RIght, if DIRECTV uses this inside the D2 lite boxes there will be no need for BSFs as it needed ow with SWM16s

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

peds48 said:


> RIght, if DIRECTV uses this inside the D2 lite boxes there will be no need for BSFs as it needed ow with SWM16s
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ok, so with the lack of an internal MoCA bridge and the DSWM-30's smaller size of less than half that of the SWM-16. Would indicate up to 4 DSWM-30s are intended for a D2 Lite enclosure in order to keep the same 8 living unit outputs with 1 HS17 possible for each unit?

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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Seems pretty logical to me..


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, so with the lack of an internal MoCA bridge and the DSWM-30's smaller size of less than half that of the SWM-16. Would indicate up to 4 DSWM-30s are intended for a D2 Lite enclosure in order to keep the same 8 living unit outputs with 1 HS17 possible for each unit?


One would think, though getting 8 units out of the current version with two SWM16s was pretty optimistic since it wasn't introduced until after the Genie became the standard install.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

peds48 said:


> RIght, if DIRECTV uses this inside the D2 lite boxes there will be no need for BSFs as it needed ow with SWM16s


Not only that, they can get rid of four of the two way splitters hanging off the SWM outputs. You'll still need something to tap the power off the SWM2 (and maybe SWM1 also if it doesn't power the unit like it does on the SWM16) and of course the six four way splitters for the LNB, but there's less 'stuff' in there even with four SWM30s.

The one hitch with handling four DSWM30s would be the power level. They currently recommend no more than 100 feet of RG6 or 150 feet of RG11. They'll probably cut another 50 feet off those or require an amp.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Ohoops ...

Don't know how I missed these related images from the recent Revolution conference originally posted by Ken Stomski on the other forum almost 2 weeks ago.

May be of interest to some like the first time actually seeing strongly suspected 95W dish diplexer arrangement.

Though the images are somewhat blurry.































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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Also while difficult to make out, looks like the LNB will be titled the "SL5RBLNBR0-01"

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Since they aren't planning to begin using reverse band until fall 2018, and have never been in any hurry to migrate off SW1, if they ever did think about mirroring the 95* channels they must have abandoned it. Though I suppose a way of diplexing in the 95* channels might still make sense even if they had. A single diplexer per large MDU costs a lot less than free upgrades for every MPEG2 box in the building used by an international subscriber.

The delay for using reverse band makes me wonder if the fate of reverse band from 103 is still up in the air. I imagine it would be decided at the ITU level, but I wouldn't even know where to look if they have documents/filings between Directv and Ciel. I looked up the plans recently and they make no sense. The Ciel-6i reverse band payload is extremely low power. They are forced to use so much error correction they get barely a third of the bit rate Directv does but despite that - and even with a 4.5 meter dish - they only have 2.7 db of noise margin! Heavy clouds would be enough to kill the signal. Dish produced calculations that showed D15 broadcasting reverse band at licensed power levels would drop that margin a full 15 db below the noise floor.

Even without Directv stomping on their signal something with so little bandwidth that's subject to quite minor whims of weather would be essentially useless to Dish for its stated purpose of video delivery to mobile users. This makes it even more obvious they are pursuing this plan with the sole goal of screwing Directv. The question is whether they are doing it because they're hoping to get something (i.e. the transponders at 110/119?) or just to hamstring their competitor's ability to deliver 4K channels in case it becomes a thing. Sort of leveling the playing field by bringing the competition down to your level...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Even without Directv stomping on their signal something with so little bandwidth that's subject to quite minor whims of weather would be essentially useless to Dish for its stated purpose of video delivery to mobile users.


The signal is not intended to be received directly by mobile users. It is intended to be received at tower locations and retransmitted to mobile users over DISH's wireless network.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> The signal is not intended to be received directly by mobile users. It is intended to be received at tower locations and retransmitted to mobile users over DISH's wireless network.


I know that. But the total bandwidth it is capable of is less than six Dish turbo transponders, and it would be out for days at a time when you have a few days of drizzle, so it isn't going to do these hypothetical wireless users much good except in Las Vegas!


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Still trying to wrap my head around the "Tuner # confusion"
DSWM-30 setup on Sonora Design website talks about a D2Advantage Lite system using an SL6 LNB (another designation for a 6 line SL5RB LNB I suspect) . It uses a 'balanced' 3 way splitter to 3 apartments with HR54 receivers. So can they do 4K? Why use a RB LNB if they can't? Does that mean it's really 3 x 7 tuners on a side??!! HR54 is 7 tuners 3x7=21

Ref: http://www.sonoradesign.com/Specs/6_Coax/DSWM60KIT_Sheet.pdf

The whole HS17 issue confuses me also. 7 streams , 2 4K. Supposedly future 'bonded' TPNs are going to be 3 tuners. Undisclosed # of channels. Original conjecture was 3 channels on 2 TPNs. If 3 TPNs bonded is that 4 channels? Or 5 Channels??
HR54 =5 or 7 ? (one 4K(3) , 4 HD = 7 tuners)
HS 17 = 11(maybe 15 in future) 7 streams 2 4K -> 5 HD 2 x 3 4K =11 with 4 tuners "To be Announced"

DSWM-30 = 15 Tuners per side (in a sports bar configuration can only do 13 x H25 because the H25 SWM hardware can't 'see' the 2 upper channels.
Is that the "13 Tuner Limit" that keeps popping up with initial RB LNB installations??

I know that I have had 21 Tuners active and recording on a single wire SL5RB LNB, including several older HR20s and H21s

All very confusing, even with installation data already published!!

Doctor j


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

The original D2 Lite split each SWM output two ways, even though two Genies would not work splitting 8 tuners. Presumably they assumed that since not everyone had a Genie it gave them the ability to support more apartments if some need <=3 tuners. Probably this is the same idea - most people won't have 4K or even an HR54, so it gives them the ability to support three apartments per SWM output under the right circumstances. If you have three apartments sharing and someone upgrades to 4K then you'd have to split them up, or add a second D2 Lite if it was full.

As for bonded transponders, I am 99% sure it will end up being two transponders bonded, and the reason there is talk of 4K requiring three is because of the way they are doing it requires dedicated SWM channels for bonded transponders. Sure, Directv could have changed their mind and bond three transponders, but I see little value in doing so.

I have no idea what the story is on the 13/21 thing. All we know is that some older hardware can't see all 21 but I've never seen a definitive list of "these can do 21, these are limited to 13". Doesn't make sense that the newest receiver is limited to only 13 and older ones like the H21 aren't, and I sure can't figure out a mechanism why that would be the case, but who knows?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Or my assumptions would be that the Sonora site is likely wrong and does not know about or understand the two additional bonded tuners which become active on the HR54 when the RB capable DSWM-30 switch is detected.

(VOS did tell me once that in spite of their apparent technical expertise. Sonora Design have made a number of errors and had confused veiws which even he had to personally help them get straight in the past)

And I think the three SWiM channel requirement for bonded tp. reception is due to the fact that one HD/SD tuner is disabled whenever a bonded tp. pair is in use as slice once suggested on the HS17 thread IIRC.

So the HR54 can receive a max. of five program streams regardless of the scenario (five HD/SD or four HD/SD + one 4K). 

And the HS17 seven max. streams (seven HD/SD or five HD/SD + two 4K).

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

If anyone wants one to play with, looks like they have reached eBay:

** NEW ** DirecTV DSWM 30 Switch DSWM30SR0-01 ** NEW ** DSWM30S MODULE


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

yeah, just shell out $100 and you can tear-down it


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> yeah, just shell out $100 and you can tear-down it


Not really any mysteries what is inside the DSWM30, so there would be no point. I had been a little curious about the reverse band LNBs; I was thinking Directv might take the opportunity to do a little redesign but it looks more like it was just an add-on to the decade old KaKu design.

They didn't even take the opportunity to save a DRO when they seemingly could have, by sharing the 18.05 GHz DRO for the low end of reverse band, providing an inverted band from 350-750 MHz. Since the AIM transponder surveys (at least for 3DR/5DR) show reverse band at 250-650 MHz, it must use two additional DROs for reverse band. So either it is using a separate pickup for reverse band instead of sharing the one used for Ka A & B bands, or eliminating a DRO didn't matter to them.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Its mfg could release white paper or good manual with such tech info ...


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Its mfg could release white paper or good manual with such tech info ...


But what other than 2 additional DROs for the Reverse Band portion could the mfr. have logically done for the new legacy six output SL5RB, what with ...

The 99 even/odd RB tps. down-converted to between 250-650 MHz, therefore means a LOF = 17.05 GHz

And the 103 even/odd RB tps. to between 1650-2050 MHz, means a LOF = 15.65 GHz

??

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> If anyone wants one to play with, looks like they have reached eBay:
> 
> ** NEW ** DirecTV DSWM 30 Switch DSWM30SR0-01 ** NEW ** DSWM30S MODULE


I couldn't help myself!
I bought the first two last week

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

doctor j said:


> I couldn't help myself!
> I bought the first two last week
> 
> Doctor j


Curious, ... for what specifically right now?

To sit on the shelf an await the Reverse Band SL5 to hit ebay to begin experiments?

Certianly you're not going to tear-down one of those nice new DSWM-30s to post internal photos? 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> Its mfg could release white paper or good manual with such tech info ...


Why? If it were a general market product that the manufacturer intended to sell to multiple companies a data sheet would make sense. But this is a product being manufactured for one company ... a closed market. Who else is going to use a LNB of this design?

The spec sheet would have one audience. And that audience has the specifications.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> But what other than 2 additional DROs for the Reverse Band portion could the mfr. have logically done for the new legacy six output SL5RB, what with ...
> 
> The 99 even/odd RB tps. down-converted to between 250-650 MHz, therefore means a LOF = 17.05 GHz
> 
> ...


With the existing 18.05 GHz LO frequency that Ka uses, reverse band could be placed at 350-750 MHz. i.e., inverted spectrum like the B band converter's 2400 MHz LO frequency produces.

That assumes the feedhorn uses the same pickup for reverse band that it does for Ka. I'll bet it does, but can't say for sure unless someone with a dead reverse band LNB tears it down.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> With the existing 18.05 GHz LO frequency that Ka uses, reverse band could be placed at 350-750 MHz. i.e., inverted spectrum like the B band converter's 2400 MHz LO frequency produces. ...


I know, and could have saved the additional cost and labor of a new DRO in doing so as you pointed out earlier. But apparently chose not to take advantage of this.



> ... That assumes the feedhorn uses the same pickup for reverse band that it does for Ka. I'll bet it does, but can't say for sure unless someone with a dead reverse band LNB tears it down.


I agree ...

When I removed the 99W-101W-103W triple feedhorn assemply from my old Ka/Ku four output SL-5 LNB I notice each feedhorn has a single diagonal metallic strip across the entire circular waveguide at a 45° angle to both the horizontal and vertical axes.

Guess that same single diag. oriented probe design which somehow picks up the RHCP and LHCP signals on both the Ka-hi and lo bands. Also picks up the R/LHCP signals of the Reverse Band on the RB capable LNBs.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

James Long said:


> Why? If it were a general market product that the manufacturer intended to sell to multiple companies a data sheet would make sense. But this is a product being manufactured for one company ... a closed market. Who else is going to use a LNB of this design?
> 
> The spec sheet would have one audience. And that audience has the specifications.


If you never did DTV installs and never did unbox some DTV equipment, say WB68 for start... then your post could have minuscule sense, not now


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> When I removed the 99W-101W-103W triple feedhorn assemply from my old Ka/Ku four output SL-5 LNB I notice each feedhorn has a single diagonal metallic strip across the entire circular waveguide at a 45° angle to both the horizontal and vertical axes.
> 
> Guess that same single diag. oriented probe design which somehow picks up the RHCP and LHCP signals on both the Ka-hi and lo bands. Also picks up the R/LHCP signals of the Reverse Band on the RB capable LNBs.


It has been some time since I saw, but I remember someone posting pictures of the guts of a KaKu LNB, and I could have sworn it had two pickups in each feedhorn, one for RHCP and one for LHCP. I'm not sure I understand how it would be possible to have a single one pick up both polarities since the frequencies would overlap, unless there's a way to design a filter that selectively filters one polarity.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> If you never did DTV installs and never did unbox some DTV equipment, say WB68 for start... then your post could have minuscule sense, not now


DIRECTV provides installation instructions for their equipment. There is no need for manufacturer data sheets telling the inner workings. Only the correct procedure for installing the equipment.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

DTV is not mfg-ing, so each device come from diff mfgs with own manual.
Well, it become useless posts exchange ... just get old WB68 box with technical data printed by the mfg.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> DTV is not mfg-ing, so each device come from diff mfgs with own manual.


How many manufacturers for the DSWM-30? Where do those selling a DSWM-30 to the public get the device? From the manufacturer or via DIRECTV?


P Smith said:


> Well, it become useless posts exchange ... just get old WB68 box with technical data printed by the mfg.


A Zinwell WB68 approved by DirecTV and distributed by Zinwell through retail channels?
A device that comes with a manual that states "For technical support please call Zinwell Corp. Do not call DIRECTV."

Yes, there is a difference.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

the point is to be informed about technical details of a device, at least that band plan as for WB68


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> the point is to be informed about technical details of a device, at least that band plan as for WB68


As already stated: Such information has been provided by the manufacturer to their customer, DIRECTV.

I don't consider the information you are requesting to be confidential and proprietary ... but release is not required. If you figure it out, please let us know (unless your source is marked confidential and/or proprietary).


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

well, if you do teardown and do measure in vitro, you want be sure by compare with mfg specs sheets


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Curious, ... for what specifically right now?
> 
> To sit on the shelf an await the Reverse Band SL5 to hit ebay to begin experiments?
> 
> ...


Still trying to decide how my distribution system will look in the future.
I have to have legacy tuners for software data collection.
Trying not to have too many dishes
Want 4K

Doctor j


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

doctor j said:


> Still trying to decide how my distribution system will look in the future.
> I have to have legacy tuners for software data collection.
> Trying not to have too many dishes
> Want 4K


Easy. One dish using a SL6 legacy reverse band LNB, with splitters connecting it to one DSWM30 and one SWM16 (for the legacy ports)


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> the point is to be informed about technical details of a device, at least that band plan as for WB68


The band plan is known from the AIM transponder survey in the Edgecutter review of the 5DR LNB. We don't need manuals from the manufacturer for that.

5th coax (F.K.A. "flex 1")
250-650 99rb even
950-1450 95 horizontal
1650-2050 103rb even

6th coax (F.K.A. "flex 2")
250-650 99rb odd
1650-2050 103rb odd


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> Easy. One dish using a SL6 legacy reverse band LNB, with splitters connecting it to one DSWM30 and one SWM16 (for the legacy ports)


Or if one DSWM-30 gives him all the SWiM capacity he feels he'll ever need. Then it can be ...

Ka/Ku lines from the SL5RB ---->WB68----> 4 lines to the DSWM-30. And the remaining 4 outputs of the WB68 for legacy ports.

Two RB lines from the SL5RB bypass the WB68 of course, and run directly to the DSWM-30 ports 5 and 6.

Note: Selected a WB68 multiswitch over the traditional power passing wideband splitters for better reliability against issues with splitters.

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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Solid Signal has a review of it. I think it looks better than the SWM 16. One thing I am not sure about is they said it runs cooler than the SWM 16 but it can overheat.

http://forums.solidsignal.com/docs/Hands on DSWM30.pdf


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm skeptical of the whole "reliability issues with splitters" thing since it seems to be a problem limited to Skywalker. Yours is a simpler setup, though pretty likely it is / will be against Directv installation specs to have four outputs of a SL6 passing through a WB68 on their way to a DSWM30 and the other two running direct!

Of course if he needs service he can pull the WB68 out of the picture before the installer arrives to prevent him blaming any and all problems on it...


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

I haven't seen an installer in about 15 years
I'll likely use the SL5RB LNB as soon as I can get my hands on one. 6 lines already in place.
Split to WB68 and DSWM-30.
For overkill I also have a Sonora SDPI6SX locker and TAMP6R03 amplifier.
And if concerned about WB68 signal power, I have an NAS SA-6AL amp for that side

Doctor j


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> I'm skeptical of the whole "reliability issues with splitters" thing since it seems to be a problem limited to Skywalker. Yours is a simpler setup, though pretty likely it is / will be against Directv installation specs to have four outputs of a SL6 passing through a WB68 on their way to a DSWM30 and the other two running direct!
> 
> Of course if he needs service he can pull the WB68 out of the picture before the installer arrives to prevent him blaming any and all problems on it...





doctor j said:


> I haven't seen an installer in about 15 years ... Doctor j


This is what I was referring to ...

I well know Doctor j does his own work of course, and therefore DIRECTV's installation "approval" is irrelevant ... 

And if the problem is limited to the Skywalker brand splitters then so be it, but I was just following Ped's recommendation in this area to avoid any possible issues with the wideband splitters as some have reported when paralleling multiswitches, and just use the WB68 to be on the safe side.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I figured he'd end up with a splitter-based setup since he owns a SWM-E2 based on his signature...


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## dminches (Oct 1, 2006)

Would this switch be part of a configuration that supports 4k or are there other ways to get to 4k? I have a SWM16 and it would help if I could expand the number of tuners supported by the switch. I plan to eventually go 4k (I have a 4k TV but my projector isn't 4k) so if this switch would be part of that I might as well get it now.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Short answer yes.
DSWM30 is the upgrade path for everything SWM that the DSWM LNB can't fix
More info here:

Solid Signal Blog - The answer to all your DSWM30 upgrade questions

Doctor j


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## dminches (Oct 1, 2006)

Thanks. Seems pretty clear that is my next move.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

See also the informative pdf posted earlier here...

http://forums.solidsignal.com/docs/Hands on DSWM30.pdf

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Sorry ...

Link was broken earlier...

Fixed it ...

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

dminches said:


> Thanks. Seems pretty clear that is my next move.


If you have a SWM16 currently, you'd probably be better off getting a reverse band LNB. Cheaper than a DSWM30, and simpler system overall.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> If you have a SWM16 currently, you'd probably be better off getting a reverse band LNB. Cheaper than a DSWM30, and simpler system overall.


That's what I was about to say myself ...

Unless you need the Reverse Band, the 95W dish, and more than 21 tuner support. You're really better off with a 3D2RB or 5D2RB digital SWiM LNBF.

For MDUs ok, but to me the SL5RB to a DSWM-30 is not going to be exactly an elegant solution for residential installs.

Three coax cable pairs running from the ODU along the sides of your house to an external multiswitch is obviously not going to be a pretty sight ...

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## dminches (Oct 1, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> That's what I was about to say myself ...
> 
> Unless you need the Reverse Band, the 95W dish, and more than 21 tuner support. You're really better off with a 3D2RB or 5D2RB digital SWiM LNBF.
> 
> ...


The wires go directly from the dish into my attic where the switch is. So, what you are describing is not an issue for me.

Honestly, i don't know what all the potential configurations are so I need to figure that out.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

dminches said:


> The wires go directly from the dish into my attic where the switch is. So, what you are describing is not an issue for me.
> 
> Honestly, i don't know what all the potential configurations are so I need to figure that out.


It all depends all tuner count. Less the 13, SWM LNB. 14 or more DSWM switch.

International dish gets DSWM switch automatically.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

peds48 said:


> It all depends all tuner count. Less the 13, SWM LNB. 14 or more DSWM switch. ... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Or has it been confirmed that it's really less than 13 tuners if there is an H25 receiver in the mix and up to 21 if not?

Reportedly something weird about the H25 where it can only see 13 of the possible 21 SWiM channels of the 2nd gen. digital LNBFs.

Currently feeding 17 tuners here off a 5D2RB to an HR54 and 5 HR24s ...

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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> Or has it been confirmed that it's really less than 13 tuners if there is an H25 receiver in the mix and up to 21 if not?
> 
> Reportedly something weird about the H25 where it can only see 13 of the possible 21 SWiM channels of the 2nd gen. digital LNBFs.
> 
> ...


Whether it has been confirmed or not, 13 is DIRECTV current policy.

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

peds48 said:


> Whether it has been confirmed or not, 13 is DIRECTV current policy.


and this telling us an experienced installer who could recognize any device by obscure picture ?!


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Or has it been confirmed that it's really less than 13 tuners if there is an H25 receiver in the mix and up to 21 if not?
> 
> Reportedly something weird about the H25 where it can only see 13 of the possible 21 SWiM channels of the 2nd gen. digital LNBFs.


Where did you hear this? I haven't heard anything about specifically which receivers are limited to 13. It would be really odd if the H25 is the only one limited to 13 tuners, since it is the newest! Even if the tuner somehow had a range smaller than the standard 950-2150 (today almost all available are more like 250-2300) it would seem you'd be limited to 15 or 16 channels rather than 13 based on the frequency range required for the 8 channel analog SWM.

Perhaps it has something to do with how the SWM and receiver identify each other, and there is a 'limited' and 'full' category which end up being 13 and 21. That would also explain why the SWM 13 LNB was limited to 13 even though the chip could do more and obviously receivers could do more.

But then how would the 15 channel DSWM30 legs fit into this, unless it just always claims that channels 16-21 are 'in use'.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

P Smith said:


> and this telling us an experienced installer who could recognize any device by obscure picture ?!


Picture not obscure at all, clear as day, that is if you know what to look for.

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## jjschind (Sep 28, 2011)

I see the reverse band legacy is coming in June. Any idea on when/if Probrand or WNC will make a RB LNB for the Alaska/Hawaii dish setup?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

soon


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

jjschind said:


> I see the reverse band legacy is coming in June. Any idea on when/if Probrand or WNC will make a RB LNB for the Alaska/Hawaii dish setup?


I wouldn't worry about it just yet. Directv isn't planning to start using reverse band until Q3 2018, so there is plenty of time for them to bring it to market.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

And my guess would be it will look much the same if not identical to the current 99,101,103 AK/HI LNBF along with the same coaxial side inputs for the 110/119 companion dish option.

But have 6 coax outputs like the SL5RB of course ...

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

And perhaps to be named the ...

"DTVAHKAKU*RB*KIT"

Verses the previous;

"DTVAHKAKUKIT" 

Just a WAG of course...

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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Solid signal in their info on the DSWM-30 mention a *SL3RBAH*.

Doctor j


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## Visman (Feb 17, 2008)

One thing I noticed, is in the diagrams that they are showing multiplable Genie box.Has Directv policy changed about having more then one Genie box on the same account.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

Visman said:


> One thing I noticed, is in the diagrams that they are showing multiplable Genie box.Has Directv policy changed about having more then one Genie box on the same account.


Not that I have seen. The policy AFAIK is still one Genie per account


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

This switch is mainly for MDU installs, the diagram is describing cases where you use one dish to serve multiple apartments. Each apartment has their own individual accounts and can have their own genie.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

The DSWM30 will never be used in residential for new installs with the HS17, unless/until they change either the one Genie policy or the 'HS17 can't mix with older stuff' policy.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> *The DSWM30 will never be used in residential for new installs with the HS17*, unless/until they change either the one Genie policy or the 'HS17 can't mix with older stuff' policy.


I could do that for myself or anyone who ask me install it


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> The DSWM30 will never be used in residential for new installs with the HS17, unless/until they change either the one Genie policy or the 'HS17 can't mix with older stuff' policy.


Huh?

Did I miss something about the HS17 where it can't receive from the 95W dish if necessary?

So, while comparatively rare notwithstanding, the HS17 cannot be used in new installs requiring the SL5RB/DSWM-30 combo for future Reverse Band 4K and the 95W dish?

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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> The DSWM30 will never be used in residential for new installs with the HS17, unless/until they change either the one Genie policy or the 'HS17 can't mix with older stuff' policy.


Because of 95 sure it can. But that's the only reason.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Are they now installing DSWM30s for new 4K + international installs? Or continuing to use existing stocks of SWM8/SWM16s? Since they won't be using reverse band until Q3 2018, and will be dropping the 95 satellite (due to dropping MPEG2) no later than 2019, there is a pretty small window for installation of DSWM30 in residential.

But you're right, I forgot about that niche.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Well to you be honest, aren't we all just assuming they are dropping 95? We haven't heard for sure.... but why ever build the splitter for 95 to be injected if they aren't going to use it.

Oh I wonder. It's three transponder right? Maybe they are about to move them to 110.... I'm sure they could swing the bird back to conus instead of pr. Or they will dump them to d10, d11, or d12. Not rb. So many ways they can go.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> It's three transponder right?


nope
look Galaxy 3C at 95.0°W - LyngSat


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Looks like closer to 8. I'll have to look at the other bales and see how many actual channels... but never mind on them moving them all to 110.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

doctor j said:


> Solid signal in their info on the DSWM-30 mention a *SL3RBAH*.
> 
> Doctor j


Interesting if that is the actual model # of the new RB capable 99/101/103 LNB for the AK-HI dish.

Considering that the "SL-" prefix stands for "Slimline." And the 1.2m AK-HI ODU is not close to a Slimline dish of course ...

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

They have to drop 95, that satellite is getting old and the replacements already in orbit are not compatible with reception of signals in the US using the international dish.

There are about 60 MPEG2 SD channels on 95, with MPEG4 compression they would fit in three transponders so they could use 110, but why? Its an old satellite with only a few years left beyond 2019, and most international customers have a SL3 or international dish only, so they'd need an installer visit if the international channels moved to 110 or 119. Directv is cheap, why pay for all those installer visits if they can be avoided?

There's two main options for Directv in 2019, with various sub-options for each:

1) Carry all MPEG2 SD channels currently on 101, 119 and 95 in MPEG4 on 101 alone (there's easily enough bandwidth)
1a) #1, dropping 110/119 entirely (maybe they have some internal use for those transponders to keep them out of Dish's hands)
1b) #1, keeping 119 and possibly 110 around for "something" - maybe west coast feeds go there, or international channels (though as above I think that's unlikely)
1c) #1, converting all MPEG2 SD spot beams currently on 101 and 119 to MPEG4, so SD only customers don't need a new dish, just new receivers. At first glance that seems like the cheapest option since the whole MPEG2 SD shutdown would not require a single installer visit! But installer visits are likely cheaper than maintaining the infrastructure for uplinking locals to 101 & 119...

2) Move the "most watched" HD channels to 101 and drop SD duplicates entirely, so RV customers can use their 101 only dish to receive some but not all packages, and hope companies like KVH make smaller/cheaper 99/101/103 only dishes for RV/marine customers who want to receive all channels
2a) / 2b) same sub-options as with #1

Personally my guess is option 1a, or possibly 1b with west coast feeds on 119. When it looks like Directv has a lot of choices, it is hard to go wrong by guessing they take the cheapest path


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

I disagree, to me #2 makes the most sense. Why broadcast anything twice? The current SD customers could still use their current dish if they have a lower package and the receiver can do the downrez to SD if needed. With this option RV customers can get in-motion service and regular customers have better rain fade protection


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DIRECTV cannot drop MPEG2 until every affected MPEG2 viewer is upgraded to MPEG4 equipment. Is DIRECTV at that point for international customers? For all customers? Any plan for turning off MPEG2 must include replacing every receiver not capable of MPEG4.

DIRECTV cannot drop SD until every non-HD receiver is replaced. Where is DIRECTV on that path? How many non-HD receivers remain active? Millions?

Once *all* receivers are MPEG4 DIRECTV can look at converting SD channels to MPEG4. Once *all* receivers are HD capable DIRECTV can look at dropping SD channels that duplicate HD channels. But I believe that there will be contract issues where for some inexplicable reason SD duplicates will remain.

Then DIRECTV can look at what to do with the space that has been freed up. Moving channels to 101 is cheap since everyone has 101.

I do not expect "the most popular" HD channels to move or be mirrored there. In my opinion that would be confirmation that there is a problem with the ka satellites. Plus DIRECTV would need to handle complaints from every channel not moved or mirrored. Currently all channels face the same carriage issues ... rain fade affects all HD channels equally. How does DIRECTV play favorites without harming their relationships? Make a list of the channels they can afford to treat worse than others and hope that they have enough space on 101 for the HD channels they cannot afford to treat badly? Moving some HD to 101 would be a mess.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

I also don't see how you can deal with the problem of rain fade backup for local channel markets on 119W if the 119W satellite is turned off ...

D7S supplies 37 spotbeam tps. over 29 spotbeams (28 currently active). There is no way D9S/D4S's 44 spotbeam tps. over 26 spotbeams at 101W can accommodate the additional LiL coverage from the loss of 119W.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> DIRECTV cannot drop MPEG2 until every affected MPEG2 viewer is upgraded to MPEG4 equipment. Is DIRECTV at that point for international customers? For all customers? Any plan for turning off MPEG2 must include replacing every receiver not capable of MPEG4.
> 
> DIRECTV cannot drop SD until every non-HD receiver is replaced. Where is DIRECTV on that path? How many non-HD receivers remain active? Millions?


They haven't even started this process, they're still relying on attrition. But they did announce 2019 as the year they'd shut down MPEG2 SD. So I would expect to hear something by the end of the year about the plans - official announcement or mailings to SD customers. Similar to what they did to drop the MPG only receivers a few years ago.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> I also don't see how you can deal with the problem of rain fade backup for local channel markets on 119W if the 119W satellite is turned off ...
> 
> D7S supplies 37 spotbeam tps. over 29 spotbeams (28 currently active). There is no way D9S/D4S's 44 spotbeam tps. over 26 spotbeams at 101W can accommodate the additional LiL coverage from the loss of 119W.


There won't be any rain fade backup for them. None of the MPEG4 markets have rain fade backup, why should they continue to support Ku spot beams to give a minority of markets a second feed? I think this goes away in 2019.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I recently bought a DSWM30 switch for the heck of it. I already have three SWM16s which are working fine so I don't need it, but I saw one on eBay for $50 and figured why not. I had never seen anything definite that it would or wouldn't work with my H20s, but I figured if nothing else I could use it for the H24s. Turns out it works perfectly with the H20s.

If I connect a half dozen H20s and then add a half dozen H24s they all work because the H20s are getting the 'original' channel frequencies they're able to use and the H24s get the 'new' channel frequencies. If I connect the H24s first then the H20s, not all the H20s work because the H24s have taken some of those 'original' frequencies and there aren't enough left for the H20s, which never got a firmware update to tell them how to use the 'new' channels. I don't have any reason to connect more than 8 receivers on a leg so that doesn't really matter to me, I was just curious.

Also runs much cooler than a SWM16. I figured it would since the DSWM chip uses less power than the six analog SWM chips in a SWM16, but also guessed it would draw power in proportion to the number of active channels. I was able to confirm that is the case, it draws more power as more channels are active. I don't have enough H24s to determine its maximum draw, but from what I saw it probably wouldn't draw even what a SWM8 does with all 30 channels active.

The only problem I had with it is that it is thinner than the SWM16, so it didn't fit in my Sonora SWM-RK4 rack. I folded a piece of cardboard over a couple times and jammed it in there to solve that issue


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

now, if you willing do tear-down of it ...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> now, if you willing do tear-down of it ...


I'd probably need a sawall, it isn't something designed to be disassembled. I think it would be pretty boring inside compared to a SWM8, almost everything happens in one chip.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm guessing here (just based on LNBF my tear-downs), but there you could check - usually such devices sealed with weatherproof silicone, but have screws


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

And FYI ...

In case you missed it, ....

Be sure to check out Stuart's update and correction from DIRECTV engineering regarding the powering options of the DSWM30.

As its actually not fully labeled right on the switch and is really much more flexible than the SWiM-16 by capable of being powered on any of its three ports, SWM1, SWM2, or EXT.

Solid Signal Blog - UPDATED: BE CAREFUL when upgrading to a SWM-30 multiswitch

What I wonder though is if it's capable of being powered on both the SWM1 and 2 ports at the same time? As this would make for a much better fit in a D2 Lite enclosure.

Since unlike the SWiM-16s, there would be no need for a 2x1 SWM splitter to feed the SWM2 and EXT. pwr. ports of each switch.

Therefore, no further additional 4.5 db power reduction in the enclosure's outlet ports 1, 2, 5, and 6 as it is currently with the SWiM-16s.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> I'm guessing here (just based on LNBF my tear-downs), but there you could check - usually such devices sealed with weatherproof silicone, but have screws


No screws, but it may be possible to pry off the bottom. But unless it dies on me I have no plans to destroy it!


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> And FYI ...
> 
> In case you missed it, ....
> 
> ...


I have always used the dedicated power ports, so that doesn't really matter to me but it seems to make it clear that all three ports are power passing - they've all got a red insert. True, it doesn't say "SWM1/PWR" etc. like the SWM16, but it is a small switch there isn't room for much writing 

No idea if you can power it through more than one at once, but I have three 24v power supplies feeding a power combiner (used to be a 3 way Holland splitter, but Mr. Holland was wrong about the current capacity of the wiring as after a couple of years that fused so I replaced it with a Sonora device intended for the purpose) Using multiple power inputs on the DSWM30 wouldn't add any additional redundancy.

I'll bet a D2 Lite based on the DSWM30 still splits each output - they were splitting 8 channel outputs so surely they'll split 15 channel outputs.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> ... Using multiple power inputs on the DSWM30 wouldn't add any additional redundancy. ...


In your case no, but I was referring to MDUs, where before when I thought only the EXT. pwr. port could supply the DSWM30 with juice. It would mean only 4 of the outlet ports of the D2 Lite could have a PI feeding it, which would actually make it less capable in this role than the SWiM-16 which can have a PI on all 8 outlets of the D2 Lite.

(2 PIs in parallel on the SWM1/PWR and EXT. pwr. ports of each SWiM-16).



> ... I'll bet a D2 Lite based on the DSWM30 still splits each output - they were splitting 8 channel outputs so surely they'll split 15 channel outputs.


Yes, I agree it will as well ...

But in this case without the additional 4.5 db of SWM signal loss on four of the ports in comparison to the 4 others as before. Assuming both the SWM1 and 2 ports of the DSWM30 can be powered simultaneously.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Well ... I guess the SL5 Reverse Band legacy is finally starting to make its way to the ebay sellers ...

Directv SL5 Reverse band Legacy (6 Outputs) | eBay

But I wouldn't pay that price for it ...

Perhaps the seller would accept a "best offer" that's more reasonable for those interested ...

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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Doubt he’d change the price till he has competition for them. And that’s not beyond outrageous. I was thinking it’d be over $100 till there was more than one.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

They may always be priced a lot higher than KaKu legacy LNBs, because of production volumes. Hardly any residential customers will ever need one - even if they start allowing more than one HS17 on an account you'd need three of them before you'd require a DSWM30.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> They may always be priced a lot higher than KaKu legacy LNBs, because of production volumes. Hardly any residential customers will ever need one - even if they start allowing more than one HS17 on an account you'd need three of them before you'd require a DSWM30.


Yeah ...

The fact that NACE has them for only $31.00 makes it a bit tough to swallow though ...

But I guess that, unless as an individual consumer you can pull some strings as Goaliebob did on the iamanedgecutter thread, NACE normally sells in volume to MDU companies which makes up for the low price per unit.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Well if NACE sells them that cheap then I think you're right that this is just because its the first one on eBay and we'll see cheaper down the road.

Thinking I might swap one in next year...don't need it but can't hurt to be prepared and I have two unused coax to the old 72.5* dish. I could also have the reflector replaced and take the opportunity to install a dish heater just in case. First I'll need to see if I can find a way to inject the HotShot's 24v 7A AC supply on the 6th coax (the 'no voltage' one) so I won't need to run another. Coax power injectors have too small a wire gauge for that many amps. Anyone have any ideas there? I've seen cable power injectors designed to handle 15A, but I think they use hardline, so I'd need to convert to F81 on their inputs/outputs.


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## satinstallerguy (Apr 21, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Well ... I guess the SL5 Reverse Band legacy is finally starting to make its way to the ebay sellers ...
> 
> Directv SL5 Reverse band Legacy (6 Outputs) | eBay
> 
> ...


That lnb is for D2 Advantage systems


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## satinstallerguy (Apr 21, 2013)

slice1900 said:


> Well if NACE sells them that cheap then I think you're right that this is just because its the first one on eBay and we'll see cheaper down the road.
> 
> Thinking I might swap one in next year...don't need it but can't hurt to be prepared and I have two unused coax to the old 72.5* dish. I could also have the reflector replaced and take the opportunity to install a dish heater just in case. First I'll need to see if I can find a way to inject the HotShot's 24v 7A AC supply on the 6th coax (the 'no voltage' one) so I won't need to run another. Coax power injectors have too small a wire gauge for that many amps. Anyone have any ideas there? I've seen cable power injectors designed to handle 15A, but I think they use hardline, so I'd need to convert to F81 on their inputs/outputs.


It doesn't work that way........ That lnb is for D2 systems... Trunk line 5 is for diplexing in the World Direct 95 and you need a special diplexer for it.....


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## satinstallerguy (Apr 21, 2013)

The DSWIM 30 is also only for D2 Lite and D2 advantage and Requires a PI-29.... you also need a Polarity locker , tamp and tap..... the CHN does not cross the DSWIm 30 either ........


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

satinstallerguy said:


> That lnb is for D2 Advantage systems


Mostly yes ...

Or for those residential installs who need the Reverse Band for future 4K and has a 95W dish.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

It is or rather will be since it isn't quite released yet for anyone who needs more SWM channels than the single wire LNBs can provide, or for those who need both reverse band and the world direct dish (at least for the short window starting next year when reverse band begins use until sometime in 2019 when 95W goes away)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

satinstallerguy said:


> It doesn't work that way........ That lnb is for D2 systems... Trunk line 5 is for diplexing in the World Direct 95 and you need a special diplexer for it.....


I'm sure "he" (slice) knows this. ...

If I understand him here, he's interested in using the 6th coax line run from the legacy RB LNB to send the 24v A/C power up to the ODU for a dish heater to avoid having to run a separate 7th line for this.

Since unlike coax line #5, line #6 is only used for RF L-band signals and the 18v DC from the DSWM-30 for that line is in fact blocked at the LNB port. Slice is therefore looking for a coax power injector/removal kit that will block out the 18v from the multiswitch, which isn't used anyway. And place then remove the 24v A/C dish heater supply on the line.

The problem is finding a coax PI/remover kit that can safely handle the some 7 amps of current flow required by the dish heater if one even exist.

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## satinstallerguy (Apr 21, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> I'm sure "he" (slice) knows this. ...
> 
> If I understand him here, he's interested in using the 6th coax line run from the legacy RB LNB to send the 24v A/C power up to the ODU for a dish heater to avoid having to run a separate 7th line for this.
> 
> ...


Yeah I hear ya, can't use the 6th line either..... If you are going to do it use the 7th trunk line, that's reserved for terrestrial signals... most of the time it won't be used ... I would just get a Hot Shot and run it off line 7....


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

satinstallerguy said:


> Yeah I hear ya, can't use the 6th line either..... If you are going to do it use the 7th trunk line, that's reserved for terrestrial signals... most of the time it won't be used ... I would just get a Hot Shot and run it off line 7....


I don't have a line 7, I have four lines to my Slimline, and two unused lines to an old 72.5* dish. I don't have and never will have a 95* dish. Since the 6th line in a legacy reverse band LNB doesn't carry current, there's no reason I can't do what HoTat2 outlined quite accurately, *assuming* I can find some sort of power injector capable of handling 7 amps without fusing. Finding power injectors is easy, but they are all rated for 0.5A to 2A or so, as they're intended to power stuff like antenna mast amplifiers.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm doubt if the switch's components will hold steady 7A and 2x current, during power on seconds


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> I'm doubt if the switch's components will hold steady 7A and 2x current, during power on seconds


Again, if I'm understanding slice's idea correctly. The multiswitch wouldn't be involved at any time in the 7A dish heater supply current. As both sides of coax line #6, near the DSWM-30 and at the LNB, would be blocked from any DC continuity to the line at the points where the power injector and remover respectively would be placed on opposite ends of the line.

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> As both sides of coax line #6, near the DSWM-30 and at the LNB, would be blocked from any DC continuity


Ah, then that's looks good ....


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

It looks like my only option would be using CATV power injectors like a Holland GHP-1 that's designed for up to 15A. It is spec'ed for 1 GHz but like a cable splitter designed for 900/1000 MHz it probably works fine at higher frequencies modulo a little extra loss the AGC amp would correct.

The problem is that type of CATV gear is designed for hard line, so I'd need to convert from F connectors to hard line and back for the Directv in/out and combined in/out, and adapt from hard line to an SAE style two pole plug at both ends as well. That's getting pretty complicated though so it might be simpler to have another coax run up there. If I was going to do that I might just have a whole new dish installed at a more accessible location on the eave so it is ladder accessible with warm water, and forget the heater. I'm going to replace the water heater with a direct vent model, maybe I could arrange to have its exhaust blow directly on the dish 

Too bad Hot Shot doesn't address this situation by having something made for sharing existing coax - just need power injectors with a bit heavier gauge wiring inside and SAE to F71 adapters....they're missing a market opportunity here! It would be a low volume product but I'd be happy to pay $50 for this sort of kit...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

but it would be different topic  ...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

doctor j said:


> Solid signal in their info on the DSWM-30 mention a *SL3RBAH*.


It now is listed in WNC's catalog (including a picture)
http://www.wnc.com.tw/upload/product_pdf/DBS/DBS_Catalogue.pdf

It refers to the SL3RBAH as "AU4" and the SL5RB legacy reverse band LNB as "AU6". The 3D2RB reverse band SWM LNB is "FD4" and the 5D2RB is "FD6". Not sure where those 'nicknames' come from.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

And as I stated on satelliteguys ...

Ironically it first appears on WNC's website which is usually so slow to update the latest LNBFs in their product line there, I got tired of regularly checking it.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Also, perhaps minor, but since these are built for DIRECTV service of course, and listed as for the "North American Market"

Should we take the RB spec. of "17.3-17.8 Ghz" in the brochure as an error, and should really be 17.3-17.7 GHz?

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

not biggie - that .1 GHz could be set by design, just DTV STB FW will not use it, as the tpn's freqs defined in system tables by them


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> not biggie - that .1 GHz could be set by design, just DTV STB FW will not use it, as the tpn's freqs defined in system tables by them


True ... the LNB can still meet that spec without violating any US licensing (since the LNB will not be transmitting in that .1 GHz).


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

It may capture, filter and stack the whole 17.3 - 17.8 range just in case someday the law changes and they are able to use transponders 19-24.


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