# Tech Forum Summary - November 10th, 2008



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

*Tech Forum Summary - November 10th, 2008*​Tech Forum Hosted by
Mark Jackson - President, Echostar Technologies
Dan Minnick - VP, Engineering

DVR Conversion (211)
New Receivers and Remote Controls
Sling Media Update
Cheyenne Uplink Tour
Trivia Question Giveaways
Live Q & A

*DVR Conversion*
New software within the next week for 211 and 211k
9 day guide instead of 2 day guide
"watch one program while you record another"
After 11/19 -
* USB 2.0, 50 GB to 750 GB, not USB powered
* Connect to the 211/211k and follow the prompts
* Call to pay one time DVR EHD fee ($39.99)
Separate fee than the 622 EHD ... works for all 211s on your account
Does not work with multi-lun drives (single drive in a single case only)

*New DVRs*
722k DVR available in December
* OTA ATSC tuner is a separate module containing two OTA tuners
(Module is available separately)
* Channel 3/4 output for TV1
* Can access OTA content from TV2 with 722k and this module
* Two Way Learning Remote

222k available in December
* Same as the 722k except no DVR built in
* Requires OTA ATSC tuner module like the 722k

Two Way Learning Remote
* Separate Search Key
* IPTV Keys (for future use)
* Set top box settings can be saved on the remote
(Available in December with the 722k and 222k)
Called "21.0" remote for existing customers
Contains many codes for new equipment plus can learn any new commands
Set top box settings save on 722k in December/222k about a month later

PRICING
ViP 722k DVR - $499 w/OTA Module, $470 w/o (MSRP)
ViP 222k - $299 w/OTA Module, $269 w/o (MSRP)
MT2 OTA Module $29.99 (MSRP) - for k units only
21.0 Replacement Remote $19.99 (MSRP)

*DTV Pal DVR*
OTA *ONLY* DVR in High Def w/USB 2.0 and Ethernet for upgrade/future
Pre-order November 19th at http://www.dtvpal.com/
$299.99 (MSRP) less $50 rebate - (JL: NOT GOVERNMENT COUPON)

*Product Updates*
Rename: "My Media" instead of "USB Storage"
ViP-622/722 DVR - EHD Folders (expected November 20th - 612 early next year)

MAKE SURE YOU GET A GOOD QUALITY DRIVE!
WD is labeling drives "DISH Network" compatible
500 GB Western Digital My DVR Expander product

Giveaway - Trivia Question (win a WD 500 GB HD)
Q: What type of rechargable batteries does our Echostar 11 satellite use?

*Tips and Tricks* - Glenn Harvey
* Hour ahead/back jump ... type numbers then right/left hour
* Day ahead/back jump on a DVR ... use skip fwd/back
Non-DVRs 2 days of data / DVRs 9 days of guide
* Use USB to transfer photos from thumb drive or camera to ViP receiver

*Cheyenne Uplink Tour*
(JL: Record this program and watch it. Interesting video.)
(JL: A quick shot of the video picture from 110 is on the video.)

*Q & A*
Q: Pat (Email) - 1080p TV, how do I get 1080p from my 722?
A: Jennifer Addair - 1080p content will output as long as TV support it
(JL: Very little content is in 1080p ... VOD only at this point.)

Q: Ken (Email) - MPEG2 HD channels on 110 changing to MPEG4?
A: Bill Moran - Shut off for good on December 1st.
(HD recievers 811/6000/942/921 will lose the remaining channels.)

Q: Marvin (Email) - TR-40 remote controls my 301?
A: Change your 301 remote address to something other than "1".
(May need a new remote.)

Q: Ken (Email) - Drop phone line and use broadband cell card?
A: Dan - If you can drive a home network network your computer to the ViP.
(otherwise pay the no phone line penalties)

TRIVIA ANSWER
Q: What type of rechargable batteries does our Echostar 11 satellite use?
A: Lithium-Ion
Winner Steve Austin from Alto NM

*Sling Media Update* - Ted Malone
New Slingbox - Slingbox Pro HD ... Slingbox Solo for non-HD
Sling.com community - No Slingbox required but will integrate live TV if you have it
Sling Mobile TV software
Slingcatcher IPTV - Universial Media Player - Stream from Slingbox or PC

Giveaway - Trivia Question (win a Sling Catcher)
Q: What month and year did Sling indroduce it's first Slingbox?

*ViP 622/722 DVR Broadband Features*
* PPV purchase without phone line / additional outlet fee
* Access to DISH Online "thousands and thousands" of titles to download and view (over 3000)
(Glenn Harvey connection video)

*Interactive TV* - Scott Higgins
DVR Timer Trigger ... set timers from advertisements

*Q & A*
Q: Richard (Phone) - 622/722 USB 1 terrabite hard drive?
A: Dan - Yes. Single drives only (no multi-lun) can be bigger than 1 TB.

Q: Mike (Phone) - Same question. (Same answer too).

Q: Bill (Email) - Seagate 750GB drive needs reconnecting each time?
A: Jennifer Addair - Get software update from Seagate website to stop it from powering down. Will also be addressed in next receiver software.

Q: Mike (Email) - 8 yr subscriber, OTA channels have "Digital Service"?
A: Must subscribe to locals to get guide info.

Q: Gary (Email) - Channel 501 1080p programming?
A: Dan - 622/722/612 program should be available now.
A: Jennifer - Turn of receiver at night to allow VOD to download.

TRIVIA ANSWER
Q: What month and year did Sling indroduce it's first Slingbox?
A: June 2005
Winner Arty McDonald Melborne FL

Next Charlie Chat ... December 8th, 2008 - 9pm ET Channel 101
Next Tech Forum ... February 9th, 2009 - 9pm ET Channel 101


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I got the idea that an upgraded 211 or 211k with a hard drive connected would not incur the monthly dvr fee? Also I wish they would address how a customer without locals availble in their area can get the guide data for their OTA channels, I know that their is no way for them to, I just wish they would have clarfied that.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

_Does not work with *multiloom *drives (single drive in a single case only)_ - actually it is LUN.
Same here: _A: Dan - Yes. Single drives only (no *multi-loom*) can be bigger than 1 TB._

I would say differently - ViP DVRs doesn't support multi LUN disk storage.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Yes, a couple of holes there (some filled with JL: comments).
It appears there is no monthly fees for the 211 / 211k.
There is no mention of the 222 / 222k getting EHD support (did I miss the numbers?).

Getting OTA EPG in markets with no LIL or for channels not carried LIL is a continuing problem that was not addressed. Time to send an Email!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> _Does not work with *multiloom *drives (single drive in a single case only)_ - actually it is LUN.


Thanks. Hard to spell without prior knowledge. At least I didn't call it multi-loon.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I like the sound of that 722k... and am please to see lower priced on the "loaded" w/OTA module receiver. Hopefully this bodes well for upgrade pricing once the receiver is available as that MSRP is the same or less than the 622 was when it was initially introduced I believe.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes, I am very interested in the 722k myself. Looks like the best is fixing to get better.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

James Long said:


> Yes, a couple of holes there (some filled with JL: comments).
> It appears there is no monthly fees for the 211 / 211k.
> There is no mention of the 222 / 222k getting EHD support (did I miss the numbers?).
> 
> Getting OTA EPG in markets with no LIL or for channels not carried LIL is a continuing problem that was not addressed. Time to send an Email!


Yes, 211 and 211k my mistake.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Dual OTA is good ... especially allowing TV2 to use an OTA tuner.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

That standalone OTA receiver is cheaper and smaller than the one that D* offers. Having 2 OTA tuners will be great, also independent OTA for TV2 is something that has been needed for me.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

James Long said:


> Dual OTA is good ... especially allowing TV2 to use an OTA tuner.


Will all four tuners be able to record at the same time?

If the 211+EHD will not incur monthly DVR fees, could one in theory lease 4 or 5 211s instead of two 722s?


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> TRIVIA ANSWER
> Q: What type of rechargable batteries does our Echostar 11 satellite use?
> A: Lithium-Ion
> Winner Steve Austin from Alto NM


That's cheating. Of couse Steve Austin would know the answer!!! The same type of batteries power his bionics!!! Someone cheated.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> Will all four tuners be able to record at the same time?


Not explicitly mentioned, but I don't see why not. Especially on new hardware.


> If the 211+EHD will not incur monthly DVR fees, could one in theory lease 4 or 5 211s instead of two 722s?


Theoretically. Provide your own hard drives (as many as you like for as many machines as you like, moving them between machines within a household). Pay the one time fee to enable EHD on all of your 211's and you're golden.

At least that's the way it was presented.


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

Does this mean I can't access my EHDs from my 622 on my 211 and the reverse? I was under the impression that the EHD fee we already paid was going to enable the 211 when the software hit.


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## dfergie (Feb 28, 2003)

James Long said:


> Thanks. Hard to spell without prior knowledge. At least I didn't call it multi-loon.


Hey I resembled that remark


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## fredp (Jun 2, 2007)

EHD folder option coming for 622/722!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HDlover said:


> Does this mean I can't access my EHDs from my 622 on my 211 and the reverse? I was under the impression that the EHD fee we already paid was going to enable the 211 when the software hit.


The EHD fee for the 622 (for all the 622s you own) is separate from the one for the 211 (for all the 211s you own). This was explicitly stated. Nothing explicit was said about moving EHDs between receivers (as one can with 622s). My answer was "theoretically".


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Haven't watched it yet, but a little confused about


> ViP-622/722 DVR - EHD Folders (expected November 20th - 612 early next year)


 The 612 has had it for awhile now.

And I hope that November 20th software release contains the fix for the audio dropout problem. If not, there's going to be alot of the country in which those 722k's are going to represesnt instant problems.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

That's what they said ... you can watch a replay to confirm it.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Do ya'll yhink that the 722k will replace the 722 as far as for dhpp replacements? Or will they keep making two seperate models for a while.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> Nothing explicit was said about moving EHDs between receivers (as one can with 622s). My answer was "theoretically".


You should be able to move from 211 to 211, however, you cannot go from a 211/211k to a 622/722/612 or vice versa.


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## festivus (Nov 10, 2008)

I'm stuck now with two 622s. Seems that I'm now missing out on a lot of new functionality. What are the options in upgrading from 622 to a 722k? I'm really interested in dual OTA tuning since I don't get HD locals in my market.


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## bnewt (Oct 2, 2003)

James Long said:


> Dual OTA is good ... especially allowing TV2 to use an OTA tuner.


Would you have to have 2 ota feeds to connect to both tuners?


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## Aransay (Jun 19, 2006)

a question did they say tahy te nwe lernign cotnrol woduel interfer with 301 
sorery uian ehr taht aprt correctly oomcuh nosie at home


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

bnewt said:


> Would you have to have 2 ota feeds to connect to both tuners?


No. The tuner has one input (as well as an output for channel 3/4 for TV1).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Aransay said:


> a question did they say tahy te nwe lernign cotnrol woduel interfer with 301
> sorery uian ehr taht aprt correctly oomcuh nosie at home


The remote that was interfering with the 301 was the remote for the DTVPal ATSC tuner that DISH is selling to convert old TVs to be able to receive digital signals.

The learning remote should work with any receiver ... the "settings save" option would only work with a 722k or 222k (when software is released).


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## butters (Sep 25, 2007)

Aransay said:


> a question did they say tahy te nwe lernign cotnrol woduel interfer with 301
> sorery uian ehr taht aprt correctly oomcuh nosie at home


I believe they were referring to the remote that the TR-40 box uses interfering with the 301 receiver.

Edit: James beat me to it!


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

I am very confused by several statements on the 211s.

In today's press release, it said after the EHD activation, the 211 will have "the ability to play back a stored program while recording or watching another."

And on the Chat I quote: "watch one program while you record another."

I thought the 211 is a single tuner receiver, but it appears after the EHD activation it will have two-tuner capability.

Am I close?

How is "play back a stored program while...watching another" possible?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Playback from a recorded show does not require a tuner. My guess is what they were trying to say is you cannot watch a live program while one is being recorded, but you can watch a previously recorded show while you are recording one. 

Thanks James for the the transcript. Nice to see they said 1TB ok.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Second tuner will not require for play/record from/to EHD here.


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## jeffdb27 (Jul 13, 2007)

James Long said:


> No. The tuner has one input (as well as an output for channel 3/4 for TV1).


Why have they gone back to the Ch 3/4 output for TV1? That is how the 625 outputs TV1. The 622/722 handle it much better for multiple TV distribution. I hope this isn't a replacement receiver, but just an option. If it is, I guess I'll have to get a 722 soon. Currently I have a 622 and 625.

I posted some place how it would be nice if they had TV1 and TV2 outputs reflect each tuner even when the receiver is in single mode. instead of having both show what's on the main TV. This would give TV2 access to both tuners, as well as retain TV1's ability to PIP and SWAP between tuners. A 3rd modulated channel would be even better for the OTA tuner, so all could be accessed from TV2, even if TV1 was in charge of what was being tuned.

Jeff


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## greenhut (Oct 24, 2008)

I am also interested in how many streams the 722k will be able to simultaneously handle. The current 722 can of course record 3 HD streams while playing back a separate fourth. The extra OTA tuner in the 722k theoretically means it could handle 4 simultaneous recording streams. I have to think we are close to limitations of a single spindle (throughput or seek time related). I wonder if we will ever get to the point where having an EHD will mean more than the "standard" number of streams are supported.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

greenhut said:


> ... I have to think we are close to limitations of a single spindle (throughput or seek time related). ...


Nope, if you dig little more you will find in DishLinux: cashing algos, big buffers in RAM, big chunks on the disk, etc.


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## bnewt (Oct 2, 2003)

James Long said:


> No. The tuner has one input (as well as an output for channel 3/4 for TV1).


Would this pass thru the ota signal to the tv's tuner? I would like to be able to record something but still be able to use the tv's tuner to watch something else.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Ok. I watched it. It's the first time I watched a Tech Forum. It just felt like a one hour Echostar Infomercial shown on Dish Network describing all the fun new toys being released just in time for Christmas. 

Do they usually not have tech types reviewing technological problems like those Echostar Engineering is working on to make the existing ViP DVR's work correctly? Do they usually not offer tech discussion about the difficulties associated with changes like conversion the Eastern Arc (which, incidentally, will result in increasing Echostar sales of new equipment paid for by Dish Network subscribers)? 

But I like toys too, like the Slingbox which might be on my Christmas list. I couldn't help but notice that shows offered on slingbox.com appeared to be the NBCU/Fox offering from their jointly owned web site Hulu.com, the same ones commercially offered through many other sites. Of course, it also feeds YouTube video which apparently will be offering MGM content and new content produced by Fremantle (the producer of the varous Idol programs).

I can't help but wonder why the ViP's don't have a browser accessing slingbox.com since it would generate ad revenue for Echostar.

A couple of other observations.

Reference was made several times to "the purchase of" or "buy" when discussing the OTA module. The implication is that it isn't part of the lease.

The OTA module outputs to channels 3/4 but it wasn't clear whether the 722k satellite programming RF output would continue to be software selectable UHF channels.

Glad the tech guys clarified that the 1080p feature probably won't work on your TV purchased before December 2007. Reinforces my perception that the Turbo promo was a major blunder since in the Summer of 2008 most of the folks who thought they had a 1080p TV most certainly bought them before December 2007.

Lastly, I'm hopeful some of you more technically savvy members here can give me a better understanding of the OTA potential of this new dual tuner OTA system. I'm sure I'm just totally out of the loop on OTA these days and maybe even just too green with envy for those who can get OTA. But...

I thought that in many areas much of the digital OTA is shifting to UHF frequencies. Don't UHF channels require closer proximity to the broadcast antenna than VHF? Further, I'm under the impression that the digital signals are not as "bouncy forgiving" as an analog VHS signal. What I thought is that the shift to digital would represent geographically smaller OTA markets and even in the OTA reception area more difficult reception problems for many people. Do I have this all wrong?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

The OTA DTV frequency discussion is covered elsewhere on the net in great detail - 
suffice to say - 
#1 - the DTV channels will be channels 2-51, inclusive, in their current frequency assignments. This means 2-6 ARE available (but not really desireable if you do some further reading).
#2 - there are rules out about what stations can or cannot do, AND the FCC must approve anything that a station wants to do. For the most part, since most stations are staffed with competent people - the FCC part is usually a rubber stamp, although they do review all the applications.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Monthly DVR fees for the 211 were not addressed either way.

The EKB version of the summary is at http://www.dishuser.org/tech0811.php


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## E91 (Oct 7, 2008)

phrelin said:


> I thought that in many areas much of the digital OTA is shifting to UHF frequencies. Don't UHF channels require closer proximity to the broadcast antenna than VHF? Further, I'm under the impression that the digital signals are not as "bouncy forgiving" as an analog VHS signal. What I thought is that the shift to digital would represent geographically smaller OTA markets and even in the OTA reception area more difficult reception problems for many people. Do I have this all wrong?


I am not a very tech savy guy (at least in regard to this stuff). However, I went from barely getting receiption with my bunny ears when only SD was available, to getting crystal clear reception with HD. The picture is so beautiful with HD OTA that I sometimes watch the OTA channels instead of the DishNet locals.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

phrelin said:


> Do they usually not have tech types reviewing technological problems like those Echostar Engineering is working on to make the existing ViP DVR's work correctly? Do they usually not offer tech discussion about the difficulties associated with changes like conversion the Eastern Arc (which, incidentally, will result in increasing Echostar sales of new equipment paid for by Dish Network subscribers)?


No they don't normally go over technical issues like bugs that are effecting their receivers as most of the audience would not have a clue as to what they are talking about. We here are 100% more aware of the issues surrounding the receivers than 99% of the viewing audience (My Guess). Heck I would even be as bold as to say that I am 100% more aware of the D* receivers issues than 99% of the D* subs just be osmosis of being on this site. Bottom line is that most people are not aware of issue and most of the issues we catch go unnoticed by the average E* sub.

The Tech chats are not as technical as people here would like but for the average sub they are more than technical enough. However, from time to time there is a good tech chat where they dig deeper or provide some cool technical insight. Definitely a hit and miss.

As for going over major bugs affecting the customer base... Ain't going to happen.. Just too many legal implications and I could see it creating more confusion than the value it might add. I remember years ago being forced to stop calling report of bugs "Bug Reports". Instead we were told to call them discrepancies.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Hmmm. From Dictionary.com:

*Bug*: _Informal._ A defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan; glitch.
*Discrepancy*: Divergence or disagreement, as between facts or claims.

So the problems are a disagreement between claims not an imperfection needing to be fixed. Got it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I did not say I agreed with it ... I Personally thought it was lame and continued to call a bug a bug or a defect if I was trying to be politically correct. It was the Lawyers that were given the company direction and I thought it was relevant example to why a company might not want to discuss these types of topics on during there customer focused show.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I am just guessing...

but my guess would be that the 622 would be done away with once the 722k comes... and then you'd have 722 and 722k to choose from. I suppose they could replace both with the 722k and be done with it... but I'd feel most confident thinking the end of the 622 is near first. Might depend on how many 622/722 receivers they have in stock already made and how cheaply/quickly they can ramp up 722k production.

As a new customer after December, I know I wouldn't want anything but a 722k... but as an existing customer I could wait for an enticing upgrade offer before jumping.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Ron Barry said:


> I did not say I agreed with it ... I Personally thought it was lame and continued to call a bug a bug or a defect if I was trying to be politically correct. It was the Lawyers that were given the company direction and I thought it was relevant example to why a company might not want to discuss these types of topics on during there customer focused show.


I didn't think you agreed with it. Just acknowledging how idiotic the world is.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

The "end of the 622" has already come and gone; new 622s haven't been made in almost a year, and anyone who orders one either gets a refurb 622 (if available at the time), or gets a 722.

Will we see them no longer being available for anything but RA replacements? Possibly.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I have no idea why they would build the 722 and the 722k, as the 722k will most likly be cheaper because the base model will not have any ota tuner included.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

IIP said:


> The "end of the 622" has already come and gone; new 622s haven't been made in almost a year, and anyone who orders one either gets a refurb 622 (if available at the time), or gets a 722.
> 
> Will we see them no longer being available for anything but RA replacements? Possibly.


I wasn't sure, since last I looked the Web site still differentiates the Dish'n'it Up offers for a 622 and 722, with the implication very strong that there are still many 622s to be had if you want them.. and I haven't heard of new customers only getting 722s yet, still seems to be hit or miss there as to what you get as a new customer last I looked.


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## jporum (Nov 12, 2008)

Aside from having 2 OTA tuners (that you have to buy!), what are the other advantages the 722k has over the 722?

What would be the reason to purchase, rather than lease, the 722k? (I didn't think you could purchase the original 722.) I assume you need to have active Dish service to use it even for doing OTA recording, so why not just pay the monthly $6 DVR fee (or $5 with DVR Advantage which also gives you locals) as opposed to the almost $500 MSRP? It would take many months (like 100 or over 8 years) to break even.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

jclewter79 said:


> I have no idea why they would build the 722 and the 722k, as the 722k will most likly be cheaper because the base model will not have any ota tuner included.


Thing is... the OTA tuner clearly isn't that expensive of a component with the price-differential only being $30 between with and without plus it has to be more expensive to make an OTA add-on plus the mechanicals that go with all that on the receiver side as well than it would be to just build the OTA tuner into the unit in the first place. Then you figure its a dual OTA tuner instead of a single one like we have today.

All told, with the price difference only being $30 I don't understand why they didn't just leage the 722k with it built-in since it doesn't represent much savings for a person not to get it. Only reason I can think of to make it a separate component is IF there are potential other uses for that upgrade slot that you could choose instead of adding an OTA tuner.

My HDTV doesn't have a built-in OTA tuner because at the time (about 6 years ago) it was about $350+ difference so I put that money into my Dish receiver upgrade instead of the TV... but for $30 who wouldn't go ahead and buy that piece?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Dish interesting in selling local by themself, they are forced to include the OTA module, if not the pressure you'll not see it at all.


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## jeffdb27 (Jul 13, 2007)

How about an optional clear QAM tuner for that slot? I live so far from my "local" stations, I might consider getting cable along with DISH. I did it before but didn't like having to switch to the other STB and TV input that I found I never used it.


BTW, on the chat, did they mention why they abandoned that horrible commercial that was the last tech forum. This one seems to be back to the original format.

Jeff


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## festivus (Nov 10, 2008)

All of this talk about the 622 becoming obsolete concerns me. I "dished' out big bucks for both of mine only in the last 2 years and now I'm hearing this. Dish had better be offering some attractive upgrades...


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## CorpITGuy (Apr 12, 2007)

Two years is a very long time in the technology field.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

THe 622 is not obsolete, just out of production.

It still works with all Dish programming, even the 411 still works and cannot be called obsolete.

Dish is working toward obsoleting MPEG-2 receivers, not ViP's.


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## festivus (Nov 10, 2008)

Well, obsolete may not be the correct word for the 622. But to me it's progressing in that direction if it cannot offer a dual OTA tuner. I can't get HD locals in central ohio from Dish for some odd reason. We're a market of over a million people but yet no HD locals. A second OTA tuner would be kinda nice in this situation. If the 722k offers this functionality Dish should be offering an upgrade special in the future, especially in markets without HD locals.

Otherwise one might be tempted to switch to a provider that does offer them.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

jeffdb27 said:


> How about an optional clear QAM tuner for that slot? I live so far from my "local" stations, I might consider getting cable along with DISH.
> 
> Jeff


While that would be technically possible, I don't think that we will ever see it. The local guide is "hooked" into the subscription for the local channel package.

And I don't know about your cable company but mine does not carry all the local digital channels (especially the subchannels). With the ATSC OTA tuner in my 722 I can get 20 local OTA channels and subchannels plus 4 more from outside my DMA (that will be 8 next February when two channels move to other frequencies). The cable company carries only 12 of those channels and subchannels in clear QAM in their basic package and, of course, none of them from outside my DMA. On top of that they overcompress them to a point that some HD sport events are almost unwatchable. For the most part I prefer getting my local HD channels via OTA but I do look forward to next week when DISH adds our HD locals (Cincinnati) to their satellite service. That will give me more recording options (being able to record two local programs at the same time).


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

festivus said:


> Well, obsolete may not be the correct word for the 622. But to me it's progressing in that direction if it cannot offer a dual OTA tuner. I can't get HD locals in central ohio from Dish for some odd reason. We're a market of over a million people but yet no HD locals. A second OTA tuner would be kinda nice in this situation. If the 722k offers this functionality Dish should be offering an upgrade special in the future, especially in markets without HD locals.
> 
> Otherwise one might be tempted to switch to a provider that does offer them.


Thing about that is... You knew the 622 didn't have a dual OTA tuner when you got it 2 years ago... and it's not an upgradable receiver, so no reason to be expecting that functionality. Since it's not obsolete, and does everything it was supposed to do... I can't see a reason why anyone would be angry about new receivers having new features.

People don't expect Dell to give them a quad-core CPU computer to replace their dual-core CPU from a year or so ago do they?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HDMe said:


> Thing about that is... You knew the 622 didn't have a dual OTA tuner when you got it 2 years ago... and it's not an upgradable receiver, so no reason to be expecting that functionality. Since it's not obsolete, and does everything it was supposed to do... I can't see a reason why anyone would be angry about new receivers having new features.
> 
> *People don't expect Dell to give them a quad-core CPU computer to replace their dual-core CPU from a year or so ago do they*?


Please don't compare apples and oranges.
Totally different business model !


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

The point is still valid: why should Dish, or any other company, be responsible for giving existing users some "special" upgrade price to upgrade their perfectly good receiver, when that receiver delivers everything it promised to?

Next year there will be newer receivers, and the year after that, and so on. At some point you have to jump in, knowing that whatever you get is eventually going to have a "new and improved" model coming after it, and that if you want that upgrade, you have to pay for it.

I mean, Dish *already* gives very discounted upgrades via Dish'n It Up. What more than that is reasonable to expect?

I could pay $500 for a high-end cell phone WITH 2 year contract, and when that 2 years expires, I'm not going to get a new $500 phone for free. I'll get another $150 discount, sure, but just because I paid $500 last time, and I *want* a "new" phone to replace my existing, working phone, doesn't mean they have to give me the new $500 one.

You can argue business models if you want, but we all know what we're getting into when we buy or subscribe to something.

I paid $350 for my first BASIC DirecTV receiver, PLUS $150 for the dish, PLUS $100 for the install kit, PLUS I had to install it myself. Other folks got 4 basic receivers for FREE, plus a free dish, plus free installation. I don't feel that I'm owed something, though; I got DirecTV for YEARS before the other people did. I paid the price and got the service I paid for, at the going rate at the time.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

_"You can argue business models if you want, but we all know what we're getting into when we buy or subscribe to something."_
That wasn't arguing, just a notice of a mistake.

Plus, I feel you involvement in the business from your posts. I think you're presenting biased opinions.


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## festivus (Nov 10, 2008)

OK, guys. I understand the point. However, what is the incentive to stay with Dish and not go to DirectTV after my commitment is up? The pain in the @$$ to switch is one thing for sure but I can't think of anything else. Companies need customer retention plans as well as plans to get new customers. If Dish doesn't want to provide HD locals in my market they'll continue to lose customers in my market unless they can figure out a way to provide an equivalent service. Two OTA tuners per receiver might do it. But I'm sure as heck not going to pay full price for new receivers when I can go to another provider, deal with a little pain to switch but save a lot of money. 

And yes, I'm pretty angry that I can't get a straight answer from Dish regarding HD locals. If they could just tell me why I might understand but I can't get any explanation for it. I have a feeling that it's due to one of the broadcasters playing hardball with them but I just don't know at this point. When I see a bunch of tiny markets getting HD locals ahead of central Ohio it's frustrating to say the least.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Well, I'm not in any business.

I know that many people are still watching only SD on 5XX receivers which are perfectly usable. (In fact, I just put my two five-year-old owned 508's in the closet in September.)

In my mind I depreciate my electronics purchase price to zero value in two years which is what I assume is about what Dish does on it's books. If it's usable to me or worth more than that, it's a bonus.

A used ViP622 appears to be worth at least $150 today (eBay, Craigslist, etc.). Based on everything I know today, a working ViP622 will do everything promised and will continue to do so for many years to come.

Once they get the bugs...oops, discrepancies out of the "k-car" version of the ViP722, I don't see any reason to manufacture either a ViP622 or ViP722. But no reason exists to junk either model just because it has been replaced.

Now I can understand frustration with not receiving any HD locals via satellite.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Definitely a fine line that DBS providers have to walk. How to keep existing customers happy while attracting new customers at a big upfront cost and keeping profitable. 

I personally think the Dish it up Model is good.. It keeps people from consistently switching receivers while providing a means to upgrade without having to pay full cost of the hardware. 

To me it is reasonable to expect that if you have been a loyal Dish customer for long time (2 years without and upgrade) and an HD DVR comes along that you feel would improve the experience that you should be able to upgrade to it at little cost with some level of commitment. What I would not consider reasonable it getting and HD DVR and then in a month or two wanting the latest and greatest that just appeared. 

I guess my point is that it is all in the situation and with a reasonable approach.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

fporum said:


> Aside from having 2 OTA tuners (that you have to buy!), what are the other advantages the 722k has over the 722?


:welcome_s to DBSTalk!

That's not quite clear yet.


> What would be the reason to purchase, rather than lease, the 722k? (I didn't think you could purchase the original 722.) I assume you need to have active Dish service to use it even for doing OTA recording, so why not just pay the monthly $6 DVR fee (or $5 with DVR Advantage which also gives you locals) as opposed to the almost $500 MSRP? It would take many months (like 100 or over 8 years) to break even.


If only that were an option. Owning vs leasing has no effect on the DVR fee.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Am I missing something?

I still don't understand the difference between the 722 and 722K, other than the "K" not having an internal OTA tuner. When somebody asked on the Tech chat they said the "K" was a marketing term. Big Deal, it chould have been X, Y or Z. They never stated the "improvement" the "K" has over the original.

Also all this talk about the 622 becoming obsolete is hogwash. AFAIK the only difference between the 622 and 722 is hard drive size. Add an EHD to a 622 and that becomes a moot point.

BTW: That was me:


> Q: Mike (Phone) - Same question. (Same answer too).


 When I heard the first caller ask the exact same question I had I could not come up with another question fast enough.


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## jeffdb27 (Jul 13, 2007)

Michael P said:


> BTW: That was me: When I heard the first caller ask the exact same question I had I could not come up with another question fast enough.


Dang! So many possibilites. How about, "When are we going to be able to set timers over the internet? It's been talked about (i.e. promised) for some time!"

Jeff


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## jporum (Nov 12, 2008)

BobaBird said:


> :
> If only that were an option. Owning vs leasing has no effect on the DVR fee.


So my questions remains - why buy rather than lease?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

jporum said:


> So my questions remains - why buy rather than lease?


 :welcome_s

Actually, there is no good reason to buy. You identified in your first post the reality that the lease is relatively cheap when compared to amortizing the cost over a reasonable life for this computer, which in the end is what the ViP's are.

But, assuming you do lease get as many of these as you think you're going to want on your first order, probably they'll allow only up to two like the ViP722 non-k version.


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## festivus (Nov 10, 2008)

Ron makes a lot of sense. The providers have to walk that fine line.

I don't mean to sound like I would want an upgrade for free. I would be willing to pay some up front cost. But as leasing anything implies, one should be able to turn in the item for an upgrade at some point.

Building the hardware to anticipate future needs is a great idea. I remember the days of inoperable usb ports on everything. A second OTA RF input seems like a no-brainer that the providers seem to have missed. At least to someone like me who lives in an SD only locals market.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

There are so many reasons why everything can't be future-proofed for all things, that I won't go down that road.

I fully expect existing customers will have some upgrade path to a 722k that will involve some up front fee + extending your 2 year commitment. That seems reasonable to me, and if the upgrade price is too high then I could pass and continue with my 622 or I could go elsewhere. But then when my DirecTV commitment ends, will I do the same thing all over again? I don't understand folks who bounce back and forth, but I do understand why neither Dish nor DirecTV spends much to try and keep such a customer.

Phones, computers, cars, and many other things get new features all the time... but we don't get free or even always reduced upgrades to them. I can get a free phone if I renew my AT&T service for another 2 year commitment... but if I want an iPhone I have to pay $300 + 2 year commitment. They will give me some but not all things free.

Similarly, Dish often has free equipment upgrades... but never the top of the line model. There was a time, for example, when I could have swapped my 6000u for an 811 for free but I chose instead to pay for an upgrade to a 622 DVR. So Dish did give me a couple of paths, and I picked the one most beneficial to me.

There are lots of things Dish gets wrong... but I'm just not seeing that in the case we are discussing here.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

festivus said:


> Building the hardware to anticipate future needs is a great idea. I remember the days of inoperable usb ports on everything. A second OTA RF input seems like a no-brainer that the providers seem to have missed. At least to someone like me who lives in an SD only locals market.


Yes that does seem like a smart move to me. I can imagine that hole for the OTA tuner being used for other possible inserts if it was designed flexibly.

And with 210 DMAs probably having an average of 6 or more HD channels, it's not difficult to figure neither Dish nor DirecTV are going to offer them all for several years making the OTA tuner the only way to compete with cable.


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## Artorture (Feb 23, 2008)

Since the OTA module is not included on the 722k, does this mean it has three satellite tuners?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Artorture said:


> Since the OTA module is not included on the 722k, does this mean it has three satellite tuners?


Wrong conclusion.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Artorture said:


> Since the OTA module is not included on the 722k, does this mean it has three satellite tuners?


DishProPlus technology only allows for 2 sat tuners per receiver, without running an additional line to it, which isn't going to happen. So, no, all they are doing is removing the OTA tuner and making it a pay option. If you need it, you pay for it, if not, you don't. Over millions of receivers, it saves Dish money, as most people don't want or need OTA. The fact that the optional module has dual OTA tuners is just a little bonus.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The 722k OTA tuner is a DUAL tuner ... two OTA signals, one for each set in dual mode. On the 722 one can only receive ONE OTA signal at a time.

The "optional" module is so trivial I wonder why it simply isn't included. One could save a few bucks and not have OTA but I doubt many would want to do that.

The good news is that it does allow a different OTA module to be used (if one is later developed). Perhaps a QAM tuner for QAM satellite or cable systems? Whatever can be developed.

The other key feature (so far) between the 722 and the 722k is the ability to save your settings on the "learning remote" when one replaces a 722k with a new 722k or the next next generation.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

The feature for backup/restore settings should work for 622/722 witn new 20.1 remote; perhaps all ViP should have it.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

L5.23 is ready for DVR activation.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> The feature for backup/restore settings should work for 622/722 witn new 20.1 remote; perhaps all ViP should have it.


That would be nice but it isn't what the guys said of the forum.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I thought I hear that before last TChat.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

I heard it before too, but can't put my finger on where. The remote was mentioned in the May Tech Forum, but not specific receivers. Now that they know how to save receiver settings they need to add easily and cheaply obtainable USB thumb drives as a device choice. Would be great for those needed to replace 721, 921, 942 receivers.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

BobaBird said:


> I heard it before too, but can't put my finger on where. The remote was mentioned in the May Tech Forum, but not specific receivers. Now that they know how to save receiver settings they need to add easily and cheaply obtainable USB thumb drives as a device choice. Would be great for those needed to replace 721, 921, 942 receivers.


It was proposed long time ago here or/and satguys before the remote-as-storage came up, but Dish's paranoia to keep everything under rug still prevail.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

BobaBird said:


> I heard it before too, but can't put my finger on where. The remote was mentioned in the May Tech Forum, but not specific receivers. Now that they know how to save receiver settings they need to add easily and cheaply obtainable USB thumb drives as a device choice. Would be great for those needed to replace 721, 921, 942 receivers.


That would be a sweet idea, but given that would most likely required code update on the receiver I don't see that happening on those devices though I could be wrong. It is nice to see that this support issue is being addressed. Big source of customer pain for sure.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Regardless of previous wishes and/or rumors we have to deal with the features as they are released. Upon December release the remote will store settings for the 722k. A month later it should store settings for the 222k. The CURRENT information is that the "set top box save" will not work for other receivers. Updates as events warrant.

Since this is a thread for discussing the Tech Forum we should respect what was said on the Tech Forum and be careful not to get confused with rumors and wishes. It would be nice to see the "set top box save" work with other receivers, as well as via other methods (thumb drives/internet/phone). That isn't what they announced.


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## dbstv (Jul 31, 2002)

the dual 722 OTA module can you add it to existing 722 or only new 722 model ?

will be great as a lot of time i need to recorded two channels off the ota at the same time which i can not do as this time


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

dbstv said:


> the dual 722 OTA module can you add it to existing 722 or only new 722 model ?
> 
> will be great as a lot of time i need to recorded two channels off the ota at the same time which i can not do as this time


Existing 722 doesn't have the slot.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

P Smith said:


> The feature for backup/restore settings should work for 622/722 witn new 20.1 remote; perhaps all ViP should have it.





James Long said:


> The CURRENT information is that the "set top box save" will not work for other receivers.


Finally stumbled across it last night. On the 622/722, go to the Sys Info screen (menu-menu), then press Next, and Next again.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Give him the screenshot !


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

BobaBird said:


> Finally stumbled across it last night. On the 622/722, go to the Sys Info screen (menu-menu), then press Next, and Next again.


Yep, sure enough I did that and there were the instructions for the remote save. Then, of course, my 722 locked up and had to soft reboot. Won't do that again.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Cool ... good to see that the older machines will be brought up to speed.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Definitely would be cool. But remember just because it says so on screen does not mean that it will be supported. There have been features that have appeared in builds to later be removed. It is possible that it was added accidentally. 

Be cool if it happens because it is a needed feature, but until it actually releases and can be used I would still put it into the "Possible new feature" bucket.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I would connect a scope to IR blaster to see if it transmitting commands/data.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Ron Barry said:


> Definitely would be cool. But remember just because it says so on screen does not mean that it will be supported. There have been features that have appeared in builds to later be removed. It is possible that it was added accidentally.
> 
> Be cool if it happens because it is a needed feature, but until it actually releases and can be used I would still put it into the "Possible new feature" bucket.


It's weird that these instruction screens would appear in L6.14 from September, or earlier. Did anyone try to follow the instructions?:grin:


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I saw that but not having new remote drop it from my circle.


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## KevinRS (Oct 9, 2007)

I'm noticing on that screen, "TV1 Remote Download Info", that it says that it is for "troubleshooting and diagnostic purposes."

no mention of "save" or sending the info back to the remote, as in backup. Probably it would only show what is programmed on the remote, so you can know that it has lost it's learned codes, or figure out what functions have not been learned, etc.


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