# Tired of shows getting chopped!



## SingleAction (Apr 29, 2005)

What I'm talking about is when you set a timer to record a network show on the DVR, the beginning has the ending of the previous show, and the end of the show your watching is chopped off so you don't see from 1-2.5 mins of the end and previews.

At first I thought it was the VIP622 that I had to replace after over 5 years, but the replacement does the same thing.

If I can, I have to extend every show by 5 mins so I don't miss the end!

It does this on all channels.

I know it's not the broadcasters, but Dish. I spend the winter in Florida, and have cable with a DVR, and watching the same network and shows, they start and end without a problem.

I'm sure I'm not the only one having this "problem"

Can anyone explain the reason for this annoyance?


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## dmspen (Dec 1, 2006)

I'm with ya! I can't count how many shows get chopped - and of course that's where a future plot is started in the shows.

Many shows I can just go to the recording of the show after it, but not always. Some are very bad. I don't know that it's DISH's fault. It may be the timing of the guide...


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

Ya know, I know the response is that the networks extend shows a minute or so past the scheduled stop time to discourage DVR usage. And I don't doubt that's true. And I understand that if this is true, then even if I set the end time to be 3 minutes late, if the timer switches to another channel to record another show that last bit will get cut off. It is a REAL irritation.

But here is what I don't understand. I had DirectTV until very recently, and my DVR only had two tuners, and so it should have had the exact same problem. We set up the Dish DVRs with the same programs and schedules we had with the DirectTV ones. But we never had this problem with DirectTV. It only showed up when we switched to Dish. I don't know if they get around it with the way their buffers are set up (I much preferred how I could switch between two channels on DirectTV and not lose my buffer like you do with Dish) or if they had some other "trick" but for whatever reason this just wasn't a problem for us with DirectTV and I don't know a way around it. It is maddening to have the last 30 seconds of a tense ending cut off because I've got two other shows being recorded at the end of this one, but it happens all the time. All the time. We groan when we see a recording that shows 1.00 in length, because we know with a certainty we will miss the last short bit at the end.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

DISH has a rather unfortunate habit of rounding the guide times to the nearest half hour. If you look at the TitanTV listings, several shows are actually scheduled to start or end a minute or two early/late.

This conditioning of the guide data needs to stop.


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## SingleAction (Apr 29, 2005)

After all the DVR is just a computer, and if you check the time it shows, and the time it says in the guide, if a show starts at 9pm and ends at 10pm, I can understand a lapse of 15sec +or_, but not mins. into the next show like a chain reaction.

CBS started doing this on Sunday nights some years ago, and ruin prime time shows that people with DVR's recorded. 60 Minutes would run more then 30 mins. over ruining the entire eveing recordings! I called it the kiss of death for any show that came after "90 Minutes".

This is the networks fault and is not the same as with the guide or timer settings. What I'm trying to say is the clock shows the correct time, and the guide shows the corect start/stop time. It should work, but for some reason every show is delayed for a large amout of time, in a nut shell.


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## bobl (Jan 17, 2004)

The problwm is Dish rounds their guide to the nearest five minutes (not thirty minutes)while DirecTV rounds to the nearest minute. Programmers begin the problem by not always ending programs on the hour, or half hour, but Dish exacerbates it by having their guide broken down ito increments no smaller than five minutes.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> But we never had this problem with DirectTV. It only showed up when we switched to Dish.


DIRECTV should be commended for the way they handle this. When shows overlap on the same channel, the DVR seems to record both programs off the same tuner. This may be why DIRECTV couldn't manage to record more than two channels at a time (as was claimed in early documentation).

Unless this is not possible, DISH needs to adopt this technique as well as eliminating the guide rounding.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bobl said:


> The problwm is Dish rounds their guide to the nearest five minutes (not thirty minutes)while DirecTV rounds to the nearest minute.


If you test it, I think you'll find that a show that begins at 9:03 will begin recording at 9:00, not 9:05 as you suggest. Maybe you meant to say that the start times were rounded to the beginning of the five minute interval?

Rounding is bad any way you look at it but if it means the difference between being able to record a show or not because of a one or two minute overlap, sometimes you have to make a leap.


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## SingleAction (Apr 29, 2005)

So, from what everyone is saying, is that Dish has the means to correct this problem, but has done nothing about it.

I started with Dish when they had their 1st DVR the Dishplayer.
It's been so long, I don't remember, but this is the worst:nono:

Harsh, so you are saying that the networks are partly to blame for this, but it also happens with the cable channels.

So I guess Brighthouse cable also compensates for this delay?


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## Orion9 (Jan 31, 2011)

fudpucker said:


> And I understand that if this is true, then even if I set the end time to be 3 minutes late, if the timer switches to another channel to record another show that last bit will get cut off. It is a REAL irritation.


Something that took me a bit to understand is that 3 minutes on the end means "soft pad". Meaning, it's OK to cut off if you need to to get another show. So if it's happening a lot to a specific/important show, set it/them to 5 minutes and then it will always record the extra. Of course, this means it won't be able to record another show immediately after with the same tuner, but you/it may be able to work around that issue as many shows have another showing that can be picked up instead.

That might get you by until(if) Dish does something to improve the guide data.


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## tymekeeper (Jan 11, 2008)

Another big problem is if you are recording two programs back to back and overlap the times you can not watch another program live. Really bad now for monday night football. I try and not record back to back and record the second showing.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

The 3 minute pad is not a "soft pad" If that pad is selected the only way to lose that pad is to manually stop the recording.

As far as the 60 minutes example goes, you can thank the NFL coverage on CBS for the odd start times on Sundays. CBS will run the entire Sunday prime time schedule after the end of the last "late" game (formerly a 4:05 or 4:15 start time late games now start at 4:30). FOX OTOH does not schedule anything important at 7:00 PM, instead they schedule a post game show that is flexible - that is it runs until the top or bottom of the hour so that the Sunday PT shows start on time, even when a late game runs late (they just cancel the 7:30 cartoon show so that the 8:00 Simpsons almost always starts on time).


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The only time a Dish DVR stops recording one thing and moves to another thing is IF you use the default start/end padding AND record back-to-back shows on the same channel.

IF you do that, then it does cut-off ends of some shows that run long and you'd have to watch the other recording afterwards... but then the end of that show is probably cut off.

I've posted before in other similar threads... I set all my shows to start 2 min early and run 3 min late. That is good for MOST shows... but every once in a while I too miss the end of something that runs long... so 5 min end padding is probably the safest.

Those who swear their cable DVR is not cutting off shows? Well, they must have a setting to go 3-5 minutes long.

Dish receivers do sometimes glitch and truncate recordings... but that's a problem being worked.

The problem MOST people are talking about are networks that run shows several minutes past the hour just to mess with you if you are recording them, because they want you to watch live.


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## Ray [email protected] Network (Dec 28, 2010)

As Stewart Vernon stated, the networks either shorten or lengthen when they begin or end a program. Thanks.



SingleAction said:


> So, from what everyone is saying, is that Dish has the means to correct this problem, but has done nothing about it.
> 
> I started with Dish when they had their 1st DVR the Dishplayer.
> It's been so long, I don't remember, but this is the worst:nono:
> ...


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## Wolfpanther (Apr 29, 2008)

I have both Dish and Brighthouse in Central Florida and I have to set extra time on the Brighthouse DVR or it cuts off


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## mweathers (Sep 4, 2007)

I have also been having this issue with the Hopper. I never get all of The Daily Show on Comedy Central. Had to increase by 5 minutes to get. I've had to go this with quite a few timers already since new season started. So far, no scheduling conflicts though.

Wish they would get this taken care of!!! Very frustrating. And it appears to be system wide.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

mweathers said:


> I have also been having this issue with the Hopper. I never get all of The Daily Show on Comedy Central. Had to increase by 5 minutes to get. I've had to go this with quite a few timers already since new season started. So far, no scheduling conflicts though.
> 
> Wish they would get this taken care of!!! Very frustrating. And it appears to be system wide.


It isn't something for Dish to fix. It is the networks running their shows long.

I have this with some shows regularly on USA and Comedy Central too.

Nothing Dish can do when the network runs shows longer than they say they will.


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## Orion9 (Jan 31, 2011)

Michael P said:


> The 3 minute pad is not a "soft pad" If that pad is selected the only way to lose that pad is to manually stop the recording.


Does this vary by model? On my 722 a 3 minute pad only gets recorded about 80% of the time.


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

Michael P said:


> The 3 minute pad is not a "soft pad" If that pad is selected the only way to lose that pad is to manually stop the recording.


*That is absolutely WRONG*. The three minute pad can and does get dropped anytime the tuner is needed to record a show immediately following the one it is currently recording.


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

Stewart Vernon said:


> It isn't something for Dish to fix. It is the networks running their shows long.
> 
> .


Yes it is something for DISH to fix.

If DISH would do like all the other programming distributors and have their guide go to the actual minute that the program is scheduled to end instead of having the guide cutting it off on the hour the problem would not exist.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

A few years ago I suggested that they give us the ability to set a recording to start late. Relying on the guide doesn't solve the problem if you have two shows starting at 9 PM, with a previous one ending at 9 PM and one ending at 9:02 PM. Something has to give and I'd prefer to choose. Some programs consistently begin with a "previously on" and opening titles which I could choose to miss.

If you can set a timer to start early, surely a start late option could be done.


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## FarmerBob (Nov 28, 2002)

And actually programming was made to end early and the next one start early. OF WHICH TiVo allows for this when you add time to a trailing timer, it understands that the previous program has ended early and allows you to adjust both to resolve the conflict. Which I never really had with TiVo. But DISH boxes will not let you do this "sophisticated" level of adjustment without convulsing. But the problem was mainly the major networks, not cable. So the current timer issues that are affecting all timers on all types of channels is a DISH issue, not network. And I have notice recently that timers in general are just plain not working as they should and the recorded time of the programming is not what it should be naturally. I have been tracking this for years and have hundreds of photos as evidence.

Unfortunately, as time has gone on timers have gotten worse. While network programming has backed off on the time adjusting somewhat. And the bad guide info via Tribune which doesn't help. I have not see any of this on my neighbors Comcast or DTV systems, who want to move to DISH but won't because of this. I have a sneaking suspicion that DISH can't make the timers work properly without infringing on TiVo's patents that Charlie could have bought a couple of years ago when TiVo was ripe for the picking. So now we the viewers have to suffer for his shortsightedness. I'm sorry to hear that this isn't better on the Hopper. I was praying that it would be and was going to switch because I hoped it would be. So now it really looks like a general DISH software issue that the new gear doesn't fix. And the fact that I get conflicts more clearly notated on the web that on the DVR is :scratch:


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## SingleAction (Apr 29, 2005)

Farmer Bob,

You summed it up in a nutshell, I guess this is what I was trying to say in my original post, but you have a much better understanding of the situation. 

Wolfpanther,

I'm sticking to my guns about my Brighthouse DVR being spot on with their timers unless things have changed in the last 6 months!

I'll let you know in several weeks when I return to Tampa.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

It is not something for Dish to fix. I actually don't want the guide to keep a program running longer and miss another show, without me knowing it will happen. The networks extend shows at will. How will I keep up with knowing the timer will extend beyond, say 9PM and because I have two more recordings set at that time, only one will start. Much better that I control it. You learn which shows tend to go over, and which shows you miss something if don't get the end. Many NBC shows "come back" after the last commercial with nothing that has to be seen or adds to that program. 
For me, either no start time padding or a minute, then two minutes at the end works for most shows. By blaming Dish or whoever, that overlooks the randomness of the networks in this.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

SingleAction said:


> What I'm talking about is when you set a timer to record a network show on the DVR, the beginning has the ending of the previous show, and the end of the show your watching is chopped off so you don't see from 1-2.5 mins of the end and previews.
> 
> At first I thought it was the VIP622 that I had to replace after over 5 years, but the replacement does the same thing.
> 
> ...


My 722 does the same thing.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

n0qcu said:


> *That is absolutely WRONG*. The three minute pad can and does get dropped anytime the tuner is needed to record a show immediately following the one it is currently recording.


Sorry, but you're the one who is wrong here.

IF you leave the default padding, then the receiver will ONLY end the recording to start another one on the same channel. It still will not interrupt to change the channels even with the default padding. That's how the receiver works.

IF you change the defaults to extend the end time... like some have to 3 minutes... then the receiver will NOT stop that recording early just to switch to another.

Again, glitches might happen... but outside of a random glitch... the receiver doesn't work as you are indicating.



n0qcu said:


> Yes it is something for DISH to fix.
> 
> If DISH would do like all the other programming distributors and have their guide go to the actual minute that the program is scheduled to end instead of having the guide cutting it off on the hour the problem would not exist.


Nope... not the problem.

Dish does have the EPG give proper times when the channels give that proper info to Tribune for EPG data! There are lots of channels where you see things end at 9:05, 10:55, etc... when the EPG data is provided for planned odd air times, then Dish receivers catch them.

The problem... networks depend on commercial advertising, so they don't want you DVRing them... they want you watching live... so they start early sometimes and run late other times... they want you to miss the end so next time you might watch live instead of DVRing.

As I've said many times... watch something live and you'll see what is really going on... many shows are going away at 11pm, say, for a commercial break and then coming back at 11:01pm to finish those last couple of minutes of the show. They are doing it to mess with your DVRing habits.

Dish cannot do anything about that.

But you can... schedule end padding of at least 5 minutes, and you'll be fine.


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## cj9788 (May 14, 2003)

Stewart Vernon said:


> IF you change the defaults to extend the end time... like some have to 3 minutes... then the receiver will NOT stop that recording early just to switch to another.


It will not stop early but it will stop recording exactly on the hour to begin the next recording. I have all my timers set with the 1 min early 3 min late as the default setting but it automatically switched to end 0 mins late when there is another time set to go off.

You can see this by checking the options on a show to be recorded later hit options if it says 0 mins late that is because of another timer set to go off.

When I extended it to end 5 mins late the next timer was skipped unless the priority of that timer was greater.

That is why I am so glad i have distant nets from San fran it really helps out, I will record Big Bang Theory on east coast and record 2 & 1/2 men on the west coast so i do not miss the very end.

This is only a problem when both tuners are recording at same time.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

cj9788 said:


> It will not stop early but it will stop recording exactly on the hour to begin the next recording. I have all my timers set with the 1 min early 3 min late as the default setting but it automatically switched to end 0 mins late when there is another time set to go off.
> 
> You can see this by checking the options on a show to be recorded later hit options if it says 0 mins late that is because of another timer set to go off.
> 
> ...


I hate to fall back on this meme... but...

You're doing it wrong.

Seriously.

The only time the Dish receiver will stop a recording in progress and start a different one (barring glitches) is when: Both timers are set to record on the same channel AND you use the default start/end padding.

I can assure you... I have all my timers set to start 2 min early and end 3 min late... and my DVR never interrupts a timer to start a different one... even when all tuners are in use. I always get a "skipped due to conflict" message if I try to set more timers than I have tuners this way.

If you look at a timer and see that it has "0 min" padding... that means you created it with the receiver's default padding and NOT a custom padding.

You can change those defaults (like I did) to always use longer padding... and never run into this... but if you didn't do that, then all your timers would still be created with the default unless you manually edit them.

Unless you have a specially problematic DVR that the rest of us don't have... what you're saying can't be true OR you're not actually setting the padding the way you think you are.

FYI... to be specific... The DVR defaults (if you don't change it) to 1 min early, 3 min late. With those settings, the DVR will auto-adjust to back-to-back timers on the same channel and will change the end/start times to 0 padding to conserve tuners. This is the behavior I am talking about.

That's why I changed my start time to 2 min early... that disables the DVR trying to be smart and conserve tuners. IF you set timers with 1 min early, 3 min late... then your receiver will continue to do what you are describing as that is intended behavior.

The easy way to fix that is to start earlier OR end later and save that as the default so you don't have to remember to change it each time. Easy peasy.


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## cj9788 (May 14, 2003)

Well this is an example of Monday night, I have timers set for 2 broke girls @9 and Mike and Molly @930 both on CBS I have the options set 1 min early and 3 mins late. At exactly 930 one recording ends and the other begins. This is on tuner one. On tuner two @ 9pm I also record Mob Doctor with the same 1 min early and 3 mins late. @exactly 10pm in spite of the 3 mins late Tuner one changes to Record Revolution on NBC and tuner two changes to ABC to record Castle. @ exactly 11pm again in spite of the end 3mins late tuner one changes to SyFy to record Warehouse 13 and Tuner two changes to record Major Crimes. Sometimes i will miss the ends of some shows. The padding whether by default or manually added is useless with that many timers going off on both tuners one right after the other. I am ok with it because if it did follow the padding exactly I would end up missing the first 3 mins of the next show. I did try to set the end to 5 mins but all that did was cause timers to skip.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stewart Vernon said:


> The only time the Dish receiver will stop a recording in progress and start a different one (barring glitches) is when: Both timers are set to record on the same channel AND you use the default start/end padding.


In my experience: Back to back timers on the same channel lose the padding regardless of if the timer has the machine default padding.

It annoyed me enough on the 622 that I would set some of my timers for the mapdown channel and others for the high number channels ... for example, record Stewart on channel 107 and Colbert on channel 9485. Back to back OTA programs (via satellite) were recorded from 016-00 and 7092. It was a pain to manage that (especially with programs that kept changing air time), it broke when the networks scheduled two episodes of the same show in a row and it led to a lot of recording conflicts. But it was the only way to make sure I got the padding on back to back shows on the same channel.

On the Hopper the high number channels are gone ... so I am forced to set timers on the same channel and over the past few months I have become accustomed to watching Stewart's "Moment of Zen" at the beginning of Colbert's recording (fortunately Comedy Central's clock is off enough that the recording usually changes during the commercial break). But the plus side is that on OTA via satellite programs during PTAT I get the correct padding (up to the limits of the PTAT window for the day).

But back to the point: In my experience both timers on the same channel loses padding. Even if there are other tuners available.



> If you look at a timer and see that it has "0 min" padding... that means you created it with the receiver's default padding and NOT a custom padding.


Are you looking at the timer or the event?



> FYI... to be specific... The DVR defaults (if you don't change it) to 1 min early, 3 min late. With those settings, the DVR will auto-adjust to back-to-back timers on the same channel and will change the end/start times to 0 padding to conserve tuners. This is the behavior I am talking about.
> 
> That's why I changed my start time to 2 min early... that disables the DVR trying to be smart and conserve tuners. IF you set timers with 1 min early, 3 min late... then your receiver will continue to do what you are describing as that is intended behavior.
> 
> The easy way to fix that is to start earlier OR end later and save that as the default so you don't have to remember to change it each time. Easy peasy.


I have changed my default to 0 minutes before 1 minute after. Back to back recordings on the same channel lose the padding (end late on the event changed to 0). Manually editing the event to add the extra minute does not work.


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

"Stewart Vernon" said:


> Sorry, but you're the one who is wrong here.
> 
> IF you leave the default padding, then the receiver will ONLY end the recording to start another one on the same channel. It still will not interrupt to change the channels even with the default padding. That's how the receiver works.
> 
> ...


Nope shows on my bell system will show as ending a x:01 and dish will show the same episode ending on the hour, guess which one gets cut off because dish round the time.

Sent from my DROIDX


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

Stewart, I'm not sure what you are arguing. There is no debate that if you have both tuners set to record and the timers are set to, say, a 5 minute pad (5 minutes late) they will ignore that and switch exactly at the moment the next show starts in order to not miss the beginning of that show. E.g. Tuner 1 is set to record 7-8:05 on ABC, Tuner 2 is set to record 7-8:05 on NBC, Tuner 1 is set to record the next show at 8-9:05 on Fox, Tuner 2 is set to record the next show at 8-9:05. If the show on ABC and NBC runs 30 seconds or 1 minute past 8, you will miss that. 

What I can't figure out: We ran the experiment this week, my neighbor has DirectTV. We set schedules exactly the same, "full" Tuners scheduled back to back. Somehow his DVRs caught the end of the shows, while my Dish ones cut it off. It is as if the DirectTV DVRs somehow have a way to record the overlap on the two channels even when all tuners are being used. This matches what my experiences were with DirectTV until I switched to Dish recently - we just never had this last 30 seconds or minute ending cut-off problem but I don't know how they did it, I just know they somehow have the tech to do it and Dish doesn't.

I did also notice the difference someone noted, DirectTV is showing some shows ending at X:01 and Dish is showing the same show ending at X:0, FWIW


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> E.g. Tuner 1 is set to record 7-8:05 on ABC, Tuner 2 is set to record 7-8:05 on NBC, Tuner 1 is set to record the next show at 8-9:05 on Fox, Tuner 2 is set to record the next show at 8-9:05. If the show on ABC and NBC runs 30 seconds or 1 minute past 8, you will miss that.


What model of DVR? Perhaps that is the difference between your experience and his?

There may also have been a firmware change that fixed/broke that. I no longer have a 622 to test but I seem to recall DISH treating the next full program as more important than the padding on the previous hour ... which would fit your example above. Perhaps at some point the DVR would have rejected the third show (Fox in your example) as a conflict and the behavior changed?

That being said ... with the networks starting programs at :01 with the final scene of the previous show touching the first scene of the next show it would be near impossible to synchronize to the exact second when it would be safe to leave one channel and start recording the next. Something has to be cut.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I think we have some confusion in some of our terminology here too... I find it awkward to keep saying "default" when we can change the defaults... Also, I omitted something that I remembered when James posted.

The "default" default is 1 min early, 3 min late... IF you change those to anything lower than that... then I think the tuner-combining happens... so 0 min early and 1 min late works the same as 1 min early and 3 min late... by which I mean, that back-to-back recordings scheduled on the same channel will share a tuner and have those end paddings adjusted to do so.

I changed mine to 2 min early and 3 min late. I've never (on a 622, 722, or a 922) seen a recording stop early to start another one... not on any channel and not even on the same channel.

As long as I have settings greater than the "default" ones that come with the receiver... timers do not stop early or get interrupted by other timers.

Now, some say "I do that but then it skips recordings"... well, of course it does! Because there are a limited number of tuners... so if you create overlapping timers it needs unique tuners to launch them... so increasing the start or end padding naturally limits your ability to record shows.

So you have to ask yourself... do I want to record my entire show OR record multiple shows. That's the tradeoff. There's no way around it, since the networks refuse to start/end their shows exactly on the hour. IF all the networks cooperated with the timeslot, then you wouldn't need any paddings... but again, this is a network-induced problem and not a Dish one.

I really don't know what Dish is supposed to do about programs that do not follow the times reported to be their airing lengths... networks (some more so than others) do this all the time. It is annoying, but not something Dish can easily address.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stewart,

It does not matter if I use the default that came with my DVR, the default that I changed on my DVR or manually set a different over/under when creating the timer. The padding is lost and the recording ends when the tuner is needed for the next event.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> I changed mine to 2 min early and 3 min late. I've never (on a 622, 722, or a 922) seen a recording stop early to start another one... not on any channel and not even on the same channel.
> 
> As long as I have settings greater than the "default" ones that come with the receiver... timers do not stop early or get interrupted by other timers.
> 
> ...


Stewart, most of us have the end time default extended to keep shows from getting cut off. The puzzling issue is that SOME DVRs, such as the DirectTV ones I had, and some people talking about some cable ones also, do NOT cut a show off early if it goes a minute late, even if it needs both tuners to start new shows. If I never needed both tuners to record new shows my shows would all go 3 minutes late (where I have it set) and no problem.

I don't know how DirectTV gets around this, but when I had DirectTV until recently, I just never had the last minute cut off even when both tuners had to switch to a new show. And I tested it again recently with my neighbor and I setting our DVRs to the exact same settings for a series of shows (he has DirectTV, I have Dish.) On mine, a couple of the shows lost the last minute (everything starts on time) and on his, the shows did NOT lose a last minute, AND the new shows started on time. It would seem impossible with only two tuners, and we were wondering if DirectTV's buffer system somehow allowed for this (with DirectTV I could switch channels, then go back to the previous show and I would not lose any buffer on the previous show, unlike Dish where as soon as I switch channels I lose the buffer on the previous channel. So maybe they use buffers in some clever way.)

I also notice in the guide shows on Dish showing an ending of 8:00 and on the DirecTV guide ending at 8:01, for example.

So - there IS something that can be done because others do it. But I suspect you have to design the DVRs up front to take this into account.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> It would seem impossible with only two tuners, and we were wondering if DirectTV's buffer system somehow allowed for this (with DirectTV I could switch channels, then go back to the previous show and I would not lose any buffer on the previous show, unlike Dish where as soon as I switch channels I lose the buffer on the previous channel. So maybe they use buffers in some clever way.)


It is impossible on two tuners. At some point the tuner must leave one channel and go to the other. While having that point at :01 may be better than having it at :00 one tuner cannot be used to record two different channels at the same time (except on the Hopper during PTAT).


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

James Long said:


> It is impossible on two tuners. At some point the tuner must leave one channel and go to the other. While having that point at :01 may be better than having it at :00 one tuner cannot be used to record two different channels at the same time (except on the Hopper during PTAT).


I get that. I know it is impossible. That's why I wonder if DirectTV used some kind of buffer system of some sort. I assume it isn't magic. I even wondered at one point if DirectTV's DVRs had a "mini-tuner" 3rd tuner that was just used for something like this (they don't.)

I agree - it is impossible for two tuners to do this, as it would require one tuner to continue to record the extra minute, and two tuners to start up the new shows. Yet - somehow the DirectTV DVRs did it.

Hmmmmmmm.... need to do another experiment, as I just thought of something - if DirectTV's guide measures to the minute and Dish's only to 5 minutes, I wonder if what happened is that DirectTV's accurately saw the one show ending a minute late in the guide, recorded the whole thing, then switched a minute late, and the other show to which it switched started a minute late due to the show preceeding it starting a minute late - which it could see in the guide, but Dish's system is unable to. THAT is doable. I'll get more data this week - his wife is out of town so we can play with his DVR and set the shows up to match mine.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

Example: if you don't have access to anything but a Dish system, take a look at zap2it listings, which many use for their accuracy.

http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCGrid.do?fromTimeInMillis=1349132400000

Two Broke Girls shows as starting at 9:01 and ending at 9:31. Dish's guide shows it as starting at 9:00 and ending at 9:30. Zap2it shows How I Met Your Mother Starting at 8:00 and ending at 8:31,which Dish's guide shows it as 8:00 to 8:30. Bones, OTOH, is 8:00 to 9:00 on both.

It would be a BIG help if Dish's guide had the actual start and stop times listed. At least then if you had a tuner that had to switch to start a new show, and the new show started at 9:01 and the show it was switching from ended at 9:01, it would get those right, even if it couldn't handle shows that end a minute after the new show starts.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> Stewart,
> 
> It does not matter if I use the default that came with my DVR, the default that I changed on my DVR or manually set a different over/under when creating the timer. The padding is lost and the recording ends when the tuner is needed for the next event.


What are you doing differently from me?

I know if you leave the default alone there are problems... I also know that editing an existing timer doesn't always "stick" the changes.

So... what I do is change those defaults... *My* defaults are 2 min early and 3 min late. All of my timers get created that way... I don't have to edit them afterwards.

And doing that... my receivers (all of them) behave identically... just as I've described.

I wonder... if what you (and others) are doing is NOT changing the receiver defaults but rather trying to make the changes at the time you set the recording? or editing afterwards? Am I right?

IF I'm right... then maybe there is something Dish can fix after all... I would expect it to work if you made the changes at the time you set the timer to override the default settings... also would expect editing a timer to work as well... so if those are the broken scenarios, then Dish does have something they can fix after all.

I assure everyone, though, that mine works as I've described... and I don't ever have any timers interrupt each other on any of my DVRs (that currently includes 622, 722, and 922)...


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

fudpucker said:


> Example: if you don't have access to anything but a Dish system, take a look at zap2it listings, which many use for their accuracy.
> 
> http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCGrid.do?fromTimeInMillis=1349132400000
> 
> ...


You're 100% on this one... IF Dish is rounding down (as opposed to rounding up) then that would cause some problems too... and you're right, Dish could address this... though I wonder if there is an underlying reason why they don't do anything but 5 minute changes in the Dish EPG... maybe they've tried and it introduced more problems than it fixed?


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## cj9788 (May 14, 2003)

James Long said:


> Stewart,
> 
> It does not matter if I use the default that came with my DVR, the default that I changed on my DVR or manually set a different over/under when creating the timer. The padding is lost and the recording ends when the tuner is needed for the next event.


This is exactly right at least on my 722. Regardless of a manually entered start early/end late or the default option Back to back timers on both my tuners ignore the padding and fire the next timer exactly on the hour or 1/2 hour. The only time the padding works is when there is no other timer set to go off at the end of the show i am watching.



Stewart Vernon said:


> As long as I have settings greater than the "default" ones that come with the receiver... timers do not stop early or get interrupted by other timers.
> 
> Now, some say "I do that but then it skips recordings"... well, of course it does! Because there are a limited number of tuners... so if you create overlapping timers it needs unique tuners to launch them... so increasing the start or end padding naturally limits your ability to record shows.
> What are you doing differently from me?
> ...


The problem for me and what I am doing different than you is i have both tuners recording on some nights from 8pm to midnight. Back to back shows some on same channels some on different ones. Since all tuners are in use all the time the DVR has to ignore the padding and fire timers exactly on the hour. The only time padding works is when one of the tuners will be inactive when the other tuner finish recording.

One night of the week i do not have overlaps so i use the west coast feeds and never miss the ends of anything, but with so many shows on that i record coming on at the same times and on different networks my DVR is very busy.


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## festivus (Nov 10, 2008)

This past Thursday was horrible for me and my 622.

3 recordings on 3 different networks, not all at the same time.
Wanted to watch the football game live.
At some points, ending timers at 9:00, beginning timers at 9:00.
But due to the issues you guys are noting, I end all shows 2 minutes late. So for a 2 minute overlap I needed all 3 tuners. 1, 2 and OTA for recordings. Then of course the recording that gets bumped to tuner 1 completes it's entire hour plus on tuner 1. So no football.

I ended up having to skip a recording on the first DVR and move it to my second DVR.

To make this issue worse, I lost my CBS local affiliate 3 weeks or so ago. So all of the CBS recordings have to be manual timers OTA. What a mess. Every day I have to check an online guide and adjust my DVR timers.

Also, it would be nice if networks didn't air all of the most popular shows on Thursdays.


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## FarmerBob (Nov 28, 2002)

I'm glad that this conversation is finally happening. I have been "*****ing" about it for years and since there were "no other complaints", mine was a moot point as per all the reps I have spoken to. I keep telling myself that I'll give it a little longer . . . But it's now taking more time to babysit timers than get the fare online when I want and watching it. Netflix and Vudu are cheaper per month and far more reliable.


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

As others have noted, this is not Dish's fault.

It's the networks purposefully trying to screw people who routinely DVR shows.

With that said, I really like the idea of being able to shift everything forward by a min or 2.

Or, a potentially easy fix for Dish would be to allow negative start time adjustments for shows. So instead of the default 1 min early, 3 min late, you could start a show -2 min "early" at the beg, 2 min late at the end, record shows back to back, and not miss any of the "sloppage" time from the networks.


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## FarmerBob (Nov 28, 2002)

fudpucker said:


> Stewart, I'm not sure what you are arguing. There is no debate that if you have both tuners set to record and the timers are set to, say, a 5 minute pad (5 minutes late) they will ignore that and switch exactly at the moment the next show starts in order to not miss the beginning of that show. E.g. Tuner 1 is set to record 7-8:05 on ABC, Tuner 2 is set to record 7-8:05 on NBC, Tuner 1 is set to record the next show at 8-9:05 on Fox, Tuner 2 is set to record the next show at 8-9:05. If the show on ABC and NBC runs 30 seconds or 1 minute past 8, you will miss that.
> 
> What I can't figure out: We ran the experiment this week, my neighbor has DirectTV. We set schedules exactly the same, "full" Tuners scheduled back to back. Somehow his DVRs caught the end of the shows, while my Dish ones cut it off. It is as if the DirectTV DVRs somehow have a way to record the overlap on the two channels even when all tuners are being used. This matches what my experiences were with DirectTV until I switched to Dish recently - we just never had this last 30 seconds or minute ending cut-off problem but I don't know how they did it, I just know they somehow have the tech to do it and Dish doesn't.
> 
> I did also notice the difference someone noted, DirectTV is showing some shows ending at X:01 and Dish is showing the same show ending at X:0, FWIW


I did the same testing with DTV and Comcast (clients that want to move to DISH, but I won't let them because of this) and with no special tweaking all programs recorded in their entirety as they should have, when they should have and had accurate accountings of their real time length, and I did not have to spend more than a couple of seconds setting up a timer and no babysitting of that timer. Also the timers accurately showed the exact time of the program when recorded and in the pending timer. I too saw 0:01 and whatnot on the ending and beginnings of program listings, timers and recorded shows. That does not happen on DISH.

I have always thought that DISH had the better hardware and TiVo the better software. Guess we're all finding that out now. Just took a hundred of so pictures off my camera of EPG and Timer inaccuracies. Someday I'll have to make a gallery of this. But the more I dig into them the more pissed off I get. It's not pretty.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

Kevin Brown said:


> As others have noted, this is not Dish's fault.
> 
> It's the networks purposefully trying to screw people who routinely DVR shows.
> 
> ...


I agree that it's the networks purposefully screwing up the times but come on, If dish can come up with auto skip for commercials (and really pissing off these same networks) on the new Hopper they should be able to figure out how to compensate for what the networks are doing here.


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## FarmerBob (Nov 28, 2002)

inazsully said:


> I agree that it's the networks purposefully screwing up the times but come on, If dish can come up with auto skip for commercials (and really pissing off these same networks) on the new Hopper they should be able to figure out how to compensate for what the networks are doing here.


* +1!*

But they can't because TiVo would sue them for infringement. OF WHICH if Charlie had bought TiVo a couple of Springs ago we wouldn't be here talking about this, and he'd have a ton of pending TiVo lawsuits in his favor and none against him. But I guess Hughes Aerospace and Blockbuster are more important.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inazsully said:


> I agree that it's the networks purposefully screwing up the times but come on, If dish can come up with auto skip for commercials (and really pissing off these same networks) on the new Hopper they should be able to figure out how to compensate for what the networks are doing here.


PTAT and AutoHop does that.

PTAT allowing the recording of up to four local networks (including the overlaps).
AutoHop trimming the program to air just before the start to just after the finish.
Record two programs in a row that overlap and each recording is the full program.


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## Mike109 (Jun 28, 2010)

Michael P said:


> The 3 minute pad is not a "soft pad" If that pad is selected the only way to lose that pad is to manually stop the recording.
> 
> As far as the 60 minutes example goes, you can thank the NFL coverage on CBS for the odd start times on Sundays. CBS will run the entire Sunday prime time schedule after the end of the last "late" game (formerly a 4:05 or 4:15 start time late games now start at 4:30). FOX OTOH does not schedule anything important at 7:00 PM, instead they schedule a post game show that is flexible - that is it runs until the top or bottom of the hour so that the Sunday PT shows start on time, even when a late game runs late (they just cancel the 7:30 cartoon show so that the 8:00 Simpsons almost always starts on time).


To get around this I've been doing a manual timer set to record 2 more hours than needed. It may be a little bit cumbersome to keep track of what is recorded because the recorded program will be called 60 minutes & run for several hours. But I get everything & only use one tuner.


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## Kevin Brown (Sep 4, 2005)

^^^

I have to remember that. Now, I just try and make sure that nothing butt-ends up against my favorites on a different channel, so I indeed get the +3 min at the end. But my way is very labor intensive.

Don't Dish CSR people peruse these threads? This would seem to be an easy thing to fix.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

James Long said:


> PTAT and AutoHop does that.
> 
> PTAT allowing the recording of up to four local networks (including the overlaps).
> AutoHop trimming the program to air just before the start to just after the finish.
> Record two programs in a row that overlap and each recording is the full program.


One reason I have not pursued Hopper/Joey is that, with my 3 DVRs (2 612s and a 722) I have 6 tuners, 4 of which I often need on a busy night, and I know that Hopper only had 3 tuners. However - am I understanding that Hopper only takes up one tuner to record all 4 network's prime time programming, leaving me 2 free tuners to pick up the shows on, say, TNT or USA, etc?

OH - also, wrt the feature that records all of the prime time shows for the networks: If I go to save, let's say, NCIS, because I will not be able to watch it within the 8 days that I understand this is stored, and NCIS goes a minute over, will the saved NCIS from PTAT have the last minute cut off?


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

fudpucker said:


> One reason I have not pursued Hopper/Joey is that, with my 3 DVRs (2 612s and a 722) I have 6 tuners, 4 of which I often need on a busy night, and I know that Hopper only had 3 tuners. However - am I understanding that Hopper only takes up one tuner to record all 4 network's prime time programming, leaving me 2 free tuners to pick up the shows on, say, TNT or USA, etc?...


Lots of posts in this and other forums - if you want 6 tuners, just get 2 Hoppers and one Joey with the same monthly fees as a Hopper and 2 Joeys. Also, less than you are paying now with more whole home features.

If you have a problem with saving shows that might have the end cut off, you can set regular timers on a Hopper with PTAT turned off -you don't need it on both. You can also set a timer for a PTAT show with extended time and unskip it on the daily schedule and it will use another tuner to give you that extended time.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

I had a couple of ViPs but I would have to put the same timers on both machines if I wanted to watch stuff in the bedroom.

That was the real clincher in the Hopper/Joey setup for me. I only had to record stuff in ONE place and could watch it anywhere. Over time, I'm discovering I don't need 5 tuners. PTAT has made 3 tuners work for me (so far). I have a 2H/3J setup and I've yet to watch anything on the second Hopper.


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