# Will Digital Switch Leave Some Behind?



## Mark Holtz

18 days to go and...

From KXTV:

*Will Digital Switch Leave Some Behind?*


> In less than three weeks, Sacramento TV stations will pull the plug on their analog signals and broadcast pure digital TV.
> 
> Sylvia Bridges worries June 12 will be the day she can no longer watch television.
> 
> An estimated three percent of American TV households are not prepared for the DTV transition, according to the FCC. In the Sacramento area the number is even higher-- nearly five percent.


FULL ARTICLE HERE

Perhaps we can refer her to Bob Hess's _What's Wrong With My #@%@!#$ TV??_ After all, he LOVES indoor antennas and digital TV. :kickbutt:

(ya ya I know, reach: . Still it feels like :bang . So, of course, for the 2 percent of the US population who has problems and believes that television is a god-given right. :beatdeadhorse: )


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## scooper

Undoubtedly, some people will be caught with their pants down, and some people will go from snowy analog coverage to no coverage in digital, but that's just the way of the world. We really can't get started on "fixing" reception problems until the transition is finalized anyway, so the sooner, the better.


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## Stewart Vernon

Imagine if they had waited until everyone had a TV and antenna before allowing analog transmission to begin back in the day!

We might still be waiting:eek2:


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## roadrunner1782

I'm fairly sure the digital transition will leave some behind. Not wanting to be mean, but lets be honest that they have had more than enough time to get prepared!


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## Stewart Vernon

Yep.. and I still keep coming back to how this is the major concern for some people.

No one has previously been concerned if that same person had a home, was eating, and getting medicine... had electricity... etc.

OR if I focus simply on the TV requirements... There has been no public outcry to make sure the person has a TV, and an antenna... So why the big concern over this one component.

Anyone who is truly stumped over the digital conversion and/or cannot afford the chaep converter box has most certainly other more important needs that aren't being met.

It's a lot like the "let them eat cake" quote... we're overly worried about whether someone gets their digital converter box installed for free, and completely ignoring the living conditions that are a larger day-to-day factor in the quality of life.


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## tcusta00

Stewart Vernon said:


> No one has previously been concerned if that same person had a home, was eating, and getting medicine... had electricity... etc.


Game. Set. Match.

Never thought of it that way. Too unfortunate that TV is so important. :nono2:


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## kevinwmsn

Any bets that the government will last second delay the transition date once again? I'm not for it, just wondering if their will be another last second cry again. I agree that all have plenty of time to get ready.


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## tcusta00

kevinwmsn said:


> Any bets that the government will last second delay the transition date once again? I'm not for it, just wondering if their will be another last second cry again. I agree that all have plenty of time to get ready.


I think now that Obama has been in office for more than a few months and now has other distractions he'll let it go.


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## n3ntj

roadrunner1782 said:


> I'm fairly sure the digital transition will leave some behind. Not wanting to be mean, but lets be honest that they have had more than enough time to get prepared!


100% agree. If you don't know by now of the digital switch, you must have your head in your butt.


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## scooper

n3ntj said:


> 100% agree. If you don't know by now of the digital switch, you must have your head in your butt.


Or you don't watch TV so this doesn't affect you anyway....


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## BattleZone

I would bet that 95% of those "unready" and "concerned" people will be watching TV on June 13. The fact that their analog tuners went dark will *finally* motivate them to do one of the following:

- Buy a digital tuner box.
- Install the box they bought months ago, but never did anything with.
- Call a friend/relative/neighbor to help
- Subscribe to pay TV.

Most of this group is the type that won't do anything until the actually lose service.


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## jkane

YAWN! :new_sleep

I can't wait for this to be past and for people to quit talking endlessly about it.


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## ercjncprdtv

scooper said:


> Undoubtedly, some people will be caught with their pants down, and some people will go from snowy analog coverage to no coverage in digital, but that's just the way of the world. We really can't get started on "fixing" reception problems until the transition is finalized anyway, so the sooner, the better.


The Los Angeles market stations are going to lose hundreds of OTA viewers, according to the detailed maps on TV Fool. In fact the local cable cos are advertising "limited basic" for OTA tv channels for 9.95/month as a way to get OTA viewers hooked up before the 12th.


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## DawgLink

Yes.....For about a day

Then they will get the snow screen and decide to upgrade unwillingly


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## ziggy29

kevinwmsn said:


> Any bets that the government will last second delay the transition date once again? I'm not for it, just wondering if their will be another last second cry again. I agree that all have plenty of time to get ready.


I really don't think so. If it was done in the 11th hour last time, it's the 11th hour and about 45 minutes this time. As far as I know, another delay hasn't even been proposed and the tapped out coupon program isn't an excuse this time.

Plus, it's becoming abundantly obvious that it doesn't matter whether you delay it four months, a year, four years or forty years -- some people just won't adapt to the change until they see nothing but snow on their TV and are *forced* to do something.


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## n3ntj

ercjncprdtv said:


> The Los Angeles market stations are going to lose hundreds of OTA viewers, according to the detailed maps on TV Fool. In fact the local cable cos are advertising "limited basic" for OTA tv channels for 9.95/month as a way to get OTA viewers hooked up before the 12th.


Hundreds of viewers? How many people does LA have? Something like 7 or 8 million or more?

I think once these people realize something is 'wrong' next month, they will buy their converter boxes.

I laugh that this thing was delayed..

1. How many more people are 'ready' that weren't ready in Feb? Probably not many.

2. You could get the converter boxes without the gov't getting involved. It wasn't like, if you couldn't get a $40 coupon, you couldn't get a box. The converter boxes were available to all (with or without coupon).


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## johnp37

Enough already! Just get it done! As for the bleeding hearts whine about whatever many viewers who only get their programming from an ota antenna, I say start a privately funded foundation to seek out and equip those who are unwilling or unable to deal with the transition. The government at any level should stay the hell out of it! The public has had more than enough time.


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## JB292

I'm ready for it to be over too. I still can't believe how many folks think there TV's will be rendered useless, though. Check out Craiglist. Many are pratically giving away TV's because it isn't digital.


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## fluffybear

kevinwmsn said:


> Any bets that the government will last second delay the transition date once again? I'm not for it, just wondering if their will be another last second cry again. I agree that all have plenty of time to get ready.


To many Democrats took hell from their constituents for the last delay that I don't think they could muster enough votes to get it through congress this time.

If we insist on 100% coverage, it's never going to happen.


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## johnp37

JB292 said:


> I'm ready for it to be over too. I still can't believe how many folks think there TV's will be rendered useless, though. Check out Craiglist. Many are pratically giving away TV's because it isn't digital.


 There are ads running here in the NY/NJ metro area from a cable provider with this actor type saying and I quote"Don't wait till June 12th to to find out your tv won't work". Of course it still works, it's not broken, it just can't decode the digital signal. That's what the converter boxes are for. If people are satisfied with the programming they receive over an antenna, they do not need cable, Fios or the dish, just a one time $45-$60 purchase of a converter box. Even if it takes word of mouth, if you know folks who depend on a antenna for tv let them know.


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## Mark Holtz

At this point, it will take a court order to halt the digital transition. I don't believe that that will happen.


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## fluffybear

Mark Holtz said:


> At this point, it will take a court order to halt the digital transition. I don't believe that that will happen.


Let's not give anybody ideas! 

The 9th circuit is full of judges who have no problem issuing a stay if they even think someone is going to be disenfranchised by that mean ol' government


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## jpl

Mark Holtz said:


> At this point, it will take a court order to halt the digital transition. I don't believe that that will happen.


That's not correct. The last delay happened per Congressional action - legislation. There's nothing to stop Congress from acting again. Granted, court action COULD cause a delay without having Congress act, but that's not the only way it could be halted/delayed. And it's far from the most likely way.

I was hopeful that this wouldn't raise its ugly head again. Going into February you couldn't get away from the 'horror' stories about how some of the elderly may miss Wheel of Fortune. Until REALLY recently I haven't seen any of those stories this time around. That got me hopeful that the media would focus their attention on stuff that's actually important, and hold off on getting people spun up about something that, I think, will largely be a total non-event.


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## fluffybear

jpl said:


> That's not correct. The last delay happened per Congressional action - legislation. There's nothing to stop Congress from acting again. Granted, court action COULD cause a delay without having Congress act, but that's not the only way it could be halted/delayed. And it's far from the most likely way.
> 
> I was hopeful that this wouldn't raise its ugly head again. Going into February you couldn't get away from the 'horror' stories about how some of the elderly may miss Wheel of Fortune. Until REALLY recently I haven't seen any of those stories this time around. That got me hopeful that the media would focus their attention on stuff that's actually important, and hold off on getting people spun up about something that, I think, will largely be a total non-event.


I saw a number somewhere which stated 42% of the stations have already converted. While the last delay may have been 11th hour, they were discussing it prior to that not to mention congress tried to rush it through once and failed. I don't hear the rumbling this time so I am pretty confident this one will happen.


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## johnp37

Instead of moaning and whining about their tv's going dark, a lot of seniors or not, how about skipping a week of dropping $50-$100 on lottery or Atlantic City slots or $7 a pack for cigarettes and buying a converter box. I see it all the time at the lottery counter. Personally, I don't play the lottery. I have no sympathy for these folks. I'm sure Mr. Vernon disagrees.


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## Stewart Vernon

johnp37 said:


> Instead of moaning and whining about their tv's going dark, a lot of seniors or not, how about skipping a week of dropping $50-$100 on lottery or Atlantic City slots or $7 a pack for cigarettes and buying a converter box. I see it all the time at the lottery counter. Personally, I don't play the lottery. I have no sympathy for these folks. I'm sure Mr. Vernon disagrees.


Actually, why would you think I would disagree?

While I do have sympathy for people who are actually in need of assistance... by and large, those are not the people we are talking about in this thread..

Most of the people who are "worried" over for lack of a converter seem to me to be folks who already have the means to do this themselves OR pay for someone to do it.

My gripe has been consistent lack of worry or offer of assistance for the people truly in need of things.

I agree, there are people who could make minor adjustments to their budget and easily afford the $40 converter box.


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## ercjncprdtv

I really believe that the majority of people who are not prepared for the switchover still think that it does not apply to them. That somehow they will "see" the digital signals on their TV because the station is going to do it for them.Or something similar to that idea. I don't think that it is a matter of cost anymore.


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## ziggy29

fluffybear said:


> I saw a number somewhere which stated 42% of the stations have already converted. While the last delay may have been 11th hour, they were discussing it prior to that not to mention congress tried to rush it through once and failed. I don't hear the rumbling this time so I am pretty confident this one will happen.


Agreed. It still COULD happen in theory, but I'm not hearing as much blustering in the halls of Congress this time -- and as I mentioned earlier, they can't use the "broke" coupon program to justify another delay. Plus, I don't think the stations are too keen on keeping the power going for two different signals for a few more months -- especially if the analog shutdown allows them to shut off a costly UHF signal.

I also think there's an increasing acceptance that no matter how much we delay, there will always be some people who will fail to prepare and adjust until they lose their picture.


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## Tom Robertson

Before we go blaming seniors, we should look closer at the data. As a group the seniors have been the most prepared group for a very long time.

http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire...7-of-us-homes-unready-for-digital-television/

Cheers,
Tom


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## B Newt

Frys has digital converters for $4.95 with the government $40 coupon.


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## scooper

Tom Robertson said:


> Before we go blaming seniors, we should look closer at the data. As a group the seniors have been the most prepared group for a very long time.
> 
> http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire...7-of-us-homes-unready-for-digital-television/
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Absolutely - the people MOST unprepared are the 18-30 somethings - the group actually most able to repidly deal with it when analog shuts off. The older the household - the more likely they are ready for this to happen.

Myself - I got my mother-in-law (she's OTA only) in the queue EARLY for her coupons, and explained to MY Mom that since she is on cable - she's fine (she thought she might need some CECBs).


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## HIPAR

It's going to leave me behind and that has nothing to do with my state of readiness. I have two ATSC televisions but there are no digital signals here in the Pocono Mountains of NE Pa. My weak but viewable analogs from New York and Philadelphia will be gone.

--- CHAS


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## Tom Robertson

HIPAR said:


> It's going to leave me behind and that has nothing to do with my state of readiness. I have two ATSC televisions but there are no digital signals here in the Pocono Mountains of NE Pa. My weak but viewable analogs from New York and Philadelphia will be gone.
> 
> --- CHAS


Is there any chance your stations will be able to go higher power after all the transition is done?


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## n3ntj

It depends what happens after the analogs shut down. Some stations may try to get FCC approval for minor changes (such as power output) based upon what happens. I would say this probably only pertains to stations changing channels after June 12th.


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## Tom Robertson

n3ntj said:


> It depends what happens after the analogs shut down. Some stations may try to get FCC approval for minor changes (such as power output) based upon what happens. I would say this probably only pertains to stations changing channels after June 12th.


And there are stations who right now can't broadcast their full digital strength until the analogs they might interfere shutdown. So I have some, limited hope for HIPAR.

Cheers,
Tom


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## ajc68

The people that aren't ready now are the same people that weren't ready before. The transition itself is what needed to be done to get everybody on board that was missing. Therefore, the delay should have never happened.


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## JB292

I am a DirecTV installer, and in the last few weeks have had customers who actually bought the digital boxes. In three different cases, the customers told me the boxes worked fine for a while, then quit completely, and wouldn't power up. The digital boxes in question were all made in China.


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## HIPAR

Tom Robertson said:


> And there are stations who right now can't broadcast their full digital strength until the analogs they might interfere shutdown. So I have some, limited hope for HIPAR.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I realize this so it's not like I won't give it a try after the DTV transition.

This is a dead area as confirmed by TVFool.com. The translators are directional towards Stroudsburg. I receive no UHF here but do get snowy VHF analogs which will mostly be going away.

The one interesting experiment will be WVPI Philadelphia about 80 miles to the south. It will be using channel 6. Everyone contends VHF Lo is useless for DTV.

--- CHAS


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## Upstream

HIPAR -- The FCC has market-by-market DTV coverage maps ( click here for list) which show where they expect households to gain and lose reception following the conversion. Because a lot of stations are changing power, and in some cases transmitter location, inability to receive a strong analog signal does not mean you won't receive a digital signal.

So depending on where you are in the Poconos, you might find you can get reception from Philadelphia (including Philadelphia market stations broadcast from Allentown) or New York. Also check the Wilkes Barre - Scranton market, as most stations there will have much stronger signals to the south.


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## n3ntj

HIPAR said:


> I realize this so it's not like I won't give it a try after the DTV transition.
> 
> This is a dead area as confirmed by TVFool.com. The translators are directional towards Stroudsburg. I receive no UHF here but do get snowy VHF analogs which will mostly be going away.
> 
> The one interesting experiment will be WVPI Philadelphia about 80 miles to the south. It will be using channel 6. Everyone contends VHF Lo is useless for DTV.
> 
> --- CHAS


Yep, I am expecting to lose WPVI-DT in a few weeks since they're moving back to channel 6.

And probably 90% of those who weren't ready in Feb still aren't ready. The delay simply wasn't needed.


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## machavez00

Upstream said:


> HIPAR -- The FCC has market-by-market DTV coverage maps ( click here for list) which show where they expect households to gain and lose reception following the conversion. Because a lot of stations are changing power, and in some cases transmitter location, inability to receive a strong analog signal does not mean you won't receive a digital signal.
> 
> So depending on where you are in the Poconos, you might find you can get reception from Philadelphia (including Philadelphia market stations broadcast from Allentown) or New York. Also check the Wilkes Barre - Scranton market, as most stations there will have much stronger signals to the south.


Quite interesting maps for the Phoenix DMA. Some stations gain coverage, some lose, and some are static.


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## Nick

Never let it be said that 'we' didn't give the _malingerers_ and _slackers_ a second chance!


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## HIPAR

Nick said:


> Never let it be said that 'we' didn't give the _malingerers_ and _slackers_ a second chance!


Well, the entire transition is quickly heading into history. I haven't seen any reference to an uproar where the DTV has occurred so our congress people won't be afraid of losing an election over this matter.

Ready or not, here we come. :icon_da:

--- CHAS


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## Stewart Vernon

I wonder how those "xxx aren't prepared" surveys are conducted anyway. Besides the allusion that older people are more prepared than younger (which is counter to what the fear-mongers would say)...

I wonder how the survey is worded.

If, for example, the question was asked "Do you have converter boxes for all your TVs"... the answer might be no, if someone is waiting for a good deal OR waiting to possibly replace some TVs OR just has TVs that are "extra" and have no intent of being upgraded.

So a survey could show "unprepared" but it might not be for lack of awareness... It could be a simple "wait until it is necessary" kind of unprepared that would drop to near zero once the deadline comes and forces the fencesitters to act.

As an example... I often let things like car inspection, car registration, etc. almost expire before renewing. Technically speaking I gain nothing by doing so because the next expiration/renewal date is the same... but still I wait because until the deadline is almost there, I have no reason to hurry.


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## RusH

As long as they have an AM radio, it should be a non-issue.


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## Nick

RusH said:


> As long as they have an AM radio, it should be a non-issue.


As a 'geezer who gets his _radidio_ from AM, FM, XM and streaming off the 'net, I have to agree. People, young and old, hear what they want to hear and ignore the rest. That's why we have so many peeps, young and old, who tune out reality and, as a result, are just plain ignorant about the world around them. I think Jay Leno's _'Jaywalking'_ segments pretty well bear that out.

The other big problem looming on the horizon is the demise of local and regional newspapers. We've long ago lost local programming on AM radio. When your local newspaper folds, where will you get your local news? Bloggers? Sorry, but I don't consider bloggers to be reliable sources at all.

After all, information on the Internet consists of half lies and half truth. The problem is figuring which is which.


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## Tom Robertson

HIPAR said:


> I realize this so it's not like I won't give it a try after the DTV transition.
> 
> This is a dead area as confirmed by TVFool.com. The translators are directional towards Stroudsburg. I receive no UHF here but do get snowy VHF analogs which will mostly be going away.
> 
> The one interesting experiment will be WVPI Philadelphia about 80 miles to the south. It will be using channel 6. Everyone contends VHF Lo is useless for DTV.
> 
> --- CHAS


Good luck. I hope you can get something reasonable digitally.


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## Jim5506

HIPAR said:


> Everyone contends VHF Lo is useless for DTV.


Channel 6 is not useless for DTV.

It is much better than channels 2-5, but not as good interference wise as 7-13.

Distance wise it is better than channels 7-13, i.e. the signal travels better through the atmosphere and bends over the horizon easier.


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## n3ntj

Why on earth are some channels moving back to their low-VHF channels this month anyway? Is it solely so they can try to save some $$$ with lower power output? It may backfire when they also have lower ratings because fewer people can receive their DT signal in the coming weeks.

For example - WPVI - 6.1/6.2/6.3 DT is currently transmitting up on channel 64, if I recall. I know that channel will no longer be available due to the auctioning off of the high UHF freqs, but why go back to channel 6? I would think they could find a channel b/w 14~50 that wouldn't interfere with another station yet still provide a usable DT signal in their service area.

I get no signal on analog channel 6 currently.. I would suspect I'll see nothing on the 12th. I'll cross my fingers, though.


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## moghedien

n3ntj said:


> Why on earth are some channels moving back to their low-VHF channels this month anyway? Is it solely so they can try to save some $$$ with lower power output? It may backfire when they also have lower ratings because fewer people can receive their DT signal in the coming weeks.
> 
> For example - WPVI - 6.1/6.2/6.3 DT is currently transmitting up on channel 64, if I recall. I know that channel will no longer be available due to the auctioning off of the high UHF freqs, but why go back to channel 6? I would think they could find a channel b/w 14~50 that wouldn't interfere with another station yet still provide a usable DT signal in their service area.
> 
> I get no signal on analog channel 6 currently.. I would suspect I'll see nothing on the 12th. I'll cross my fingers, though.


Where are they supposed to go?

http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php?request=channel&zipcode=19107&latitude=&longitude=


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## SayWhat?

HIPAR said:


> It's going to leave me behind and that has nothing to do with my state of readiness. I have two ATSC televisions but there are no digital signals here in the Pocono Mountains of NE Pa. My weak but viewable analogs from New York and Philadelphia will be gone.
> 
> --- CHAS


You won't be the only one. I would imagine many non-urban stations will be taking a major hit in their viewer populations and subsequent loss of revenue due to having to lower their advertising rates.

But, I guess in the end, I won't really care. I don't really watch broadcast TV anymore except for the local news.


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## aa9vi

Sylvia Bridges is a moron. That's why she won't be able to watch TV any more.


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## HIPAR

Figured it's time to try for some OTA television here in the Pocono Mountains of NE Pa .. Yep, left behind. 

I receive nothing from my Scranton official DMA. I receive one local NTSC translator on Channel 60. It's some kind of marketing channel .. they're peddling a 'Greatest rock band' DVD. 

I see nightlight on channels 2 and 4 from new York City. I see nightlight on KYW channel 3 from Philadelphia. They are all snowy but, as usual, watchable.

How about this .. the nightlight from KYW is being sponsored by Comcast. 

Of course I have satellite here but that's not the point.

--- CHAS


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## ziggy29

A fair number of folks in the Austin area are being "left behind" by the local Fox affiliate's move from RF channel 56 to 7. Of course, they are on a temporary facility at about 1/3 power for a few more weeks, so maybe it will resolve when they are at full power.


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## premio

DirecTV OTA mappings is leaving me behind in Sacramento. :sigh: At least most still work.


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## HIPAR

It's been a week now and there's now no press coverage .. this is now ancient history. The FCC cites call volume to the help lines is continuing to diminish with the vast majority of viewer problems being easily solved by correcting converter box hook-ups and rescans. 

I heard FCC Commissioner Copps dislocated his shoulder while patting himself on the back for pulling this thing off so brilliantly. :lol:

--- CHAS


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## sum_random_dork

I know there is/will be issues in the SF/Oak/SJ DMA for a while, many of the stations had their antennas at the bottome of Sutro Tower for DTV, well now they have to move all those up to the top of Sutro. KGO and KTVU have both done stories stating it could be Oct before everything is fully operational. I lost 2 stations in the switch that use to come in in DTV, but with frequency changes were lost. Both have told me "keep rescanning, by Oct you should be ok." Doesn't bother me too much because I have D*, but if I just used an antenna I'd be a bit frustrated. I also know in Sac, KCRA still has to do some antenna modifications before they will be fully operational, according to their engineering dept that should be Sept/Oct before completed. With all this I have to imagine there are other markets still not fully operational. My question on all this is ...we had a few years to know this was happening why weren't the TV stations moving their antennas around before?


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## hobie346

sum_random_dork said:


> I know there is/will be issues in the SF/Oak/SJ DMA for a while, many of the stations had their antennas at the bottome of Sutro Tower for DTV, well now they have to move all those up to the top of Sutro. KGO and KTVU have both done stories stating it could be Oct before everything is fully operational. I lost 2 stations in the switch that use to come in in DTV, but with frequency changes were lost. Both have told me "keep rescanning, by Oct you should be ok." Doesn't bother me too much because I have D*, but if I just used an antenna I'd be a bit frustrated. I also know in Sac, KCRA still has to do some antenna modifications before they will be fully operational, according to their engineering dept that should be Sept/Oct before completed. With all this I have to imagine there are other markets still not fully operational. My question on all this is ...we had a few years to know this was happening why weren't the TV stations moving their antennas around before?


My problem with 2-1 (KTVU), 4-1 (KRON) and 7-1 (KGO) is I can get them on my digtial TV but I can't get them on my HR20-700 nor my HR23-700 w/ AM21. I've call D* and a week later still no signal.


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## say-what

hobie346 said:


> My problem with 2-1 (KTVU), 4-1 (KRON) and 7-1 (KGO) is I can get them on my digtial TV but I can't get them on my HR20-700 nor my HR23-700 w/ AM21. I've call D* and a week later still no signal.


Try going into the antenna setup on the HR2x, select "Reset Settings" to wipe the current db, then redo the "Initial Setup", it may help if the changes have already been mapped to the DirecTV database.

I had a problem with 2 of my locals swapping: ch 26 and 38 shared a transmitter, but on the 12th 26 moved to its original frequency when they turned analog off - ch 38 went from 15-2 to 15-1 and ch 26 went from 15-1 to 26-1. Redoing everything fixed my problem.


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## samhevener

HIPAR said:


> It's been a week now and there's now no press coverage .. this is now ancient history. The FCC cites call volume to the help lines is continuing to diminish with the vast majority of viewer problems being easily solved by correcting converter box hook-ups and rescans.
> 
> I heard FCC Commissioner Copps dislocated his shoulder while patting himself on the back for pulling this thing off so brilliantly. :lol:
> 
> --- CHAS


You must not be reading the newspapers. The Cleveland Plain Dealer has had several stories the past week about problems viewers are having. Even those with outdoor antennas. Several station's coverage area is much less than before, leaving many viewers out.
I would say 6 months from now the switchover will be, as you call it, ancient history.


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## johnp37

It appears I will have to replace my DB8 (UHF) antenna because NY stations 7 and 11 in their infinite wisdom decided to switch to VHF. So those are now gone until my new VHF/UHF antenna arrives. But the good news is I still have all my locals on D*. I like to have my ota locals as a back up in those infrequent foul weather outages. Anyone else lose their locals because of this?


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## ChrisPC

HIPAR said:


> It's been a week now and there's now no press coverage .. this is now ancient history.
> --- CHAS


I guess you don't live in a market with VHF DTV. I have three, including one low-band on 5. All week, they've been running stories about people who can't get the signal, and sending someone out to fix it.

Of course, they usually fix it by just moving the antenna, which the viewer is usually too dumb or lazy to do. In one story, the FCC was even sending an engineer to homes and businesses to adjust their antennas.

The station keeps saying it's not their fault, it's the FCC frequency they were given. Well, who asked the FCC to keep their VHF channel?


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## V'ger

WKRC in Cincinnati went from 800KW on Ch 31 to 15.5KW on Ch 12 on June 12th. I live about 55 miles, so was in the fringe range. I have seperate UHF and VHF antennas, amps and downfeeds from a 35' tower. I had no problem getting them on UHF at almost any angle pointed towards the south. Now on VHF, I have to be within 5 degrees of directly at their tower to get them during the day (a lot easier to get them at night). 

A co-worker of mine says her mom, who leaves near the GE plant (10 miles from tower) and has an outdoor antenna, can't get them. 

I got the feeling the decision to go back to VHF was a bean counter issue. It takes a lot less power to run 15KW. I also heard they reused their analog VHF 12 antenna, so it is not likely optimized for the wide band DTV transmission.

Sweeps comes in July. I bet they do something about it when their previously #1 news is 3rd or 4th due to the loss of most of their OTA viewers.

For comparision, WCPO is on VHF Channel 10 at 19.4KW at about the same height as WKRC. But I can get WCPO 10x better than WKRC. And WCPO is moving their antenna up 100' on their tower in the next week. Of course, WCPO-DT has been on Ch 10 for years and has had time to iron the bugs out. In my location, I had interference from WBNS analog 10 in Columbus. When they went dark, WCPO came in strong.


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## HIPAR

Undoubtedly, a great percentage of those who can't make DTV work aren't making a big stink over it, have just thrown up their arms in surrender and called the cable company. 

The Philadelphia WPVI (RF6) website displays a big red banner on its home page that's sponsored by Comcast offering an introductory offer for basic cable.

You can play your 'poor and disadvantaged' card if you wish, but the popular press and Washington politicians are declaring this DTV thing a non-event. :nono:

--- CHAS


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## SayWhat?

^^^^ Spoken by someone who clearly doesn't understand that unemployment is at it's highest level in decades with no end in sight. Ever increasing numbers of people are living at or below poverty level. Home prices in some areas have fallen 30% or more. People's savings have been wiped out. Visits to food banks are way up while government services to help them are down or being cancelled outright.

Where are people supposed to get $50/mo for cable? Or even $20/mo? What about the vast areas where cable isn't even available?

Try supporting a family of four on $20,000/yr or less (takehome/net about $14,000), then tell me how much of a 'non-event' it is when your kids can't watch TV anymore.

I'm sure from some of the set-ups I've seen discussed on this board some of you probably bring home $14,000 a WEEK, so you can't possibly understand how this is affecting the REAL America.


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## Stewart Vernon

SayWhat? said:


> ^^^^ Spoken by someone who clearly doesn't understand that unemployment is at it's highest level in decades with no end in sight. Ever increasing numbers of people are living at or below poverty level. Home prices in some areas have fallen 30% or more. People's savings have been wiped out. Visits to food banks are way up while government services to help them are down or being cancelled outright.
> 
> Where are people supposed to get $50/mo for cable? Or even $20/mo? What about the vast areas where cable isn't even available?


Umm... as I have said before... anyone in such dire straits that they cannot afford a converter box OR lifeline cable (assuming cable is available), probably has FAR more important expenses to attend to.

Agreed in tough economic times people need to make hard choices... but no one is owed TV... I completely sympathise with someone unable to afford food or medicine or clothing or heat/cooling... but I have ZERO sympathy for someone who wants cable/satellite/digital tv.

The homeless want homes... the hungry want food... the sick want medical care... people simply without TV should be thankful they don't have all those other problems.


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## roadrunner1782

Stewart Vernon said:


> Umm... as I have said before... anyone in such dire straits that they cannot afford a converter box OR lifeline cable (assuming cable is available), probably has FAR more important expenses to attend to.
> 
> Agreed in tough economic times people need to make hard choices... but no one is owed TV... I completely sympathise with someone unable to afford food or medicine or clothing or heat/cooling... but I have ZERO sympathy for someone who wants cable/satellite/digital tv.
> 
> The homeless want homes... the hungry want food... the sick want medical care... people simply without TV should be thankful they don't have all those other problems.


Very well said!!!


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## Mark Holtz

SayWhat? said:


> Try supporting a family of four on $20,000/yr or less (takehome/net about $14,000), then tell me how much of a 'non-event' it is when your kids can't watch TV anymore.


The three basic human needs does not include television. So, yes, it will be an event when the television goes. After about a month of whining, they will discover alternatives.


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## HIPAR

I wouldn't be surprised if Congress passes emergency legislation providing coupons for pay TV service. Program costs will dissolve into the trillions of other government expenditures. 

--- CHAS


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## Tom Robertson

Let's not stray too far into political meanderings and guessing games. Thanks.

Besides "everyone" thought it was the elderly that weren't ready--and they were always the most ready group. 

Yes, this was very smooth as a transition goes. Yes, there are some problems. (We have one station still off the air as near as I can tell.) Yes, there will be some tweaks. That's all ok. No one ever expected 100%.

A few people have better picture than they had before. A few do not--yet. And a few might not until they get a far bigger antenna or DIRECTV. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## SayWhat?

Stewart Vernon said:


> but I have ZERO sympathy for someone who wants cable/satellite/digital tv.
> 
> The homeless want homes... the hungry want food... the sick want medical care... people simply without TV should be thankful they don't have all those other problems.


What makes you think they don't have other problems?

What are they supposed to do for entertainment, stare at a blank wall? Most of them can't even afford a newspaper. Movie rentals? Not a chance. What are the kids supposed to do, go out and start robbing people? Up until a week ago, they had at least _some_ TV to watch. Now, many of them have nothing at all. Have you ever had a houseful of small children with nothing to watch? The kids don't understand any of this, all they can do is look at Mom and wonder what happened.

When you've lived on minimum wage, working part-time jobs, you'll have a better perspective.

I just don't understand the kind of closed-minded thinking I'm seeing here.


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## Tom Robertson

SayWhat? said:


> What makes you think they don't have other problems?
> 
> What are they supposed to do for entertainment, stare at a blank wall? Most of them can't even afford a newspaper. Movie rentals? Not a chance. What are the kids supposed to do, go out and start robbing people? Up until a week ago, they had at least _some_ TV to watch. Now, many of them have nothing at all. Have you ever had a houseful of small children with nothing to watch? The kids don't understand any of this, all they can do is look at Mom and wonder what happened.
> 
> When you've lived on minimum wage, working part-time jobs, you'll have a better perspective.
> 
> I just don't understand the kind of closed-minded thinking I'm seeing here.


The converter boxes were almost free. (If you looked hard, you might even get it free.) So I'm more confused rather than lack of caring. (Not that I feel you were commenting about me in particular).

And I also understand people being too busy--but all in all, they can get an inexpensive fix and get TV fairly soon.

I suspect "most" of the people who don't have TV today, really don't watch much or are able to get the fix quickly. Unless there is a much larger demographic of "poor" that didn't get the nearly free boxes than I expect.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Zellio

SayWhat? said:


> What makes you think they don't have other problems?
> 
> What are they supposed to do for entertainment, stare at a blank wall? Most of them can't even afford a newspaper. Movie rentals? Not a chance. What are the kids supposed to do, go out and start robbing people? Up until a week ago, they had at least _some_ TV to watch. Now, many of them have nothing at all. Have you ever had a houseful of small children with nothing to watch? The kids don't understand any of this, all they can do is look at Mom and wonder what happened.
> 
> When you've lived on minimum wage, working part-time jobs, you'll have a better perspective.
> 
> I just don't understand the kind of closed-minded thinking I'm seeing here.


Closed minded? The thinking I'm seeing from you is what got us sub-prime mortages.

Here's an idea: *LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS. If that means you can't afford tv, then you can't.*

You do know people before tv and internet did such things like throw football? You don't need the idiot box.

And btw, you act like no one shares this?

I grew up in a family that had a highly paid genius engineer dad. We were high middle class, half way between middle and upper. My dad decided to leave us (after beating up my mom) and we had to cancel pretty much everything.

I didn't have cable from 1990 until 2008 when I got directv hd. Hell, for 18 years all I had was a crappy analog signal that I'd be lucky if I got a picture, and it was color. When people had 486 machines in 1992 I had a 286.

In my area 20 minutes south of Atlanta, I'd get weak signals for local tv stations. I'd get MAYBE 1 or two channels, only 1 usually worth watching (tbs).

I worked my way past this. We had everything when I was young, lost everything, and I had to give up what I had. I had to work my way back up. So don't give me this crap.

And yes, guess what? When I was a late teen in the late 90's (I'm 30 btw) I was highly envious of people with nice stereo systems (Compared to my what, 90's boombox as a stereo? bleh), nice houses, nice everything.

But want to know something? You aren't owed anything. I now have a few nice hdtvs, but it wasn't because some generous stranger dropped them off!

If you honestly think losing your tv is such a big deal, try losing cable, expensive food, going to the movies, buying video games, good clothing (and having to buy used clothing). Try falling that far and then talk to me about tv.


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## Tom Robertson

That does remind me that as a child of the 60's and 70's, there were times we didn't have a TV after parents divorced. Usually grandparents helped with a TV, but we still had times without. Or a black and white after everything had gone color in the 70s. 

And we never had cable--there weren't one


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## Stewart Vernon

For much of my youth I didn't have a TV of my own. We had one small TV in the living room and I was an only child. Sometimes that TV was color, sometimes it was black & white.

For a while we lived where there was no cable... so OTA was it. Even when we moved to an area where we could get cable, I was nearly 18 before we got it for the first time.

I did have an Atari videogame (the 2600, later a 5200) and we had some of the early computers... but I also played outside most of the time as a kid... riding my bike or wandering around in the woods or playing basketball.

As an adult, I've had either cable or satellite for as far back as I can remember now... and I love me some TV! I especially love me some HD and Blu ray movies.

When I first moved into my house there was an ice storm that killed power one week. A similar thing happened a year later but it was a hurricane in the fall. No power for a week meant no TV or computer or even phone. I had water, fortunately.

People were freaking out having no TV... and I remember thinking how peaceful it was. I actually didn't mind the break from TV, even as much as I like it.

Anyone who truly can't handle being without TV (as opposed to just wishing you could watch something or missing a favorite show) doesn't really have an idea what it is to need something.

I've been fortunate enough to not go without food or shelter or have need for medical care that I couldn't afford, even when without a job... but I have known people who weren't so fortunate. I never remember those people wishing for a TV.

To be somewhat on topic... At this point I suspect most people who are "left behind" fall into two categories:

1. People for whom TV wasn't a priority, so they can live without it or are intentionally choosing not to jump aboard yet.

2. People who are in need of a great many more important things than TV.

I'll say it again, I like me some TV! But if all the TVs in the world stopped working tomorrow, I'd be fine with that too... and I'd find something else to do to entertain myself.


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## olguy

SayWhat? said:


> What makes you think they don't have other problems?
> 
> What are they supposed to do for entertainment, stare at a blank wall? Most of them can't even afford a newspaper. Movie rentals? Not a chance. What are the kids supposed to do, go out and start robbing people? Up until a week ago, they had at least _some_ TV to watch. Now, many of them have nothing at all. Have you ever had a houseful of small children with nothing to watch? The kids don't understand any of this, all they can do is look at Mom and wonder what happened.
> 
> When you've lived on minimum wage, working part-time jobs, you'll have a better perspective.
> 
> I just don't understand the kind of closed-minded thinking I'm seeing here.


Jumpin' Jeezus. Millions and millions of us grew up without TV. And some of us were what you might call dirt poor. And I have yet to rob my first convenience store. Read a lot of public library books. Played games with the other kids in the neighborhood. Talked with my parents and sister. Loved going to my grandparents house. For the stories. They finally got a TV about the time they got an electric refrigerator in '58 or so after I joined the Navy.

My wife's family got a magic box when she was in grade school. She is addicted. I never had one in my house until we got married 51 years ago and I'm indifferent to TV. I can still go to the library. I can still talk to my neighbors. I can still talk to my sons. I can still go for walks in the park. I can still sit with my dogs. And because I am way better off than we were when I was growing up I have a number of other non-TV related amusements. But I don't need money or TV to be happy.


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## machavez00

Tom Robertson said:


> That does remind me that as a child of the 60's and 70's, there were times we didn't have a TV after parents divorced. Usually grandparents helped with a TV, but we still had times without. Or a black and white after everything had gone color in the 70s.
> 
> And we never had cable--there weren't one


We didn't have a color TV (or a touch tone phone!)until after my father passed in 1977. It was a hand-me-down Motorola from my aunt. It was 15 years old when the tube finally went dark.

When did B&W simulcasting end, with the analog shut off?


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## Stewart Vernon

machavez00 said:


> When did B&W simulcasting end, with the analog shut off?


You know... it probably depends on how you look at it.

Technically, yes, B&W compatible broadcast ends with the digital cutover because all that is being broadcast now would be the MPEG2 encoded data which is in color (except for an old B&W show of course).

BUT... all the converter boxes out there output RF in analog for older TVs, thus B&W compatible, or composite which also is B&W friendly... so folks with B&W TVs should be just fine still.

So even with technically ending B&W-compatible broadcast, the necessity of the converter box to decode the signal results in something compatible still with older B&W TVs if you still have one around.


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## scooper

I HAVE connected an old 12 inch Sears B/W tv to a CECB - worked just fine....


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## Zellio




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## hobie346

say-what said:


> Try going into the antenna setup on the HR2x, select "Reset Settings" to wipe the current db, then redo the "Initial Setup", it may help if the changes have already been mapped to the DirecTV database.
> 
> I had a problem with 2 of my locals swapping: ch 26 and 38 shared a transmitter, but on the 12th 26 moved to its original frequency when they turned analog off - ch 38 went from 15-2 to 15-1 and ch 26 went from 15-1 to 26-1. Redoing everything fixed my problem.


Well, I did as you suggested and now it's worse. After issuing the Reset Settings and then doing the scan the Option to edit the Local channels is grayed out. Tried several times; same thing. Now no locals at all.


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