# Discussion: 4:3 HD Format



## user1168 (Feb 14, 2005)

I have an HD TV that is 4:3 rather than widescreen. The 811 has setup options for 4:3 however none of them makes a difference on my TV, the image is always displayed in widescreen. Does anyone know if this is an issue with the 811 or could it be my TV?

Thanks.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Does your TV have a setting that tells it to letterbox any 16x9 signal?


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## user1168 (Feb 14, 2005)

The TV is a Sony KV-36XBR450. I believe that you are correct that any 16:9 signal would be letterboxed on this TV. The settings in the 811 make it appear that the 811 is also capable of sending a 4:3 HD signal, or at least that's my read of the settings.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

user1168 said:


> The TV is a Sony KV-36XBR450. I believe that you are correct that any 16:9 signal would be letterboxed on this TV. The settings in the 811 make it appear that the 811 is also capable of sending a 4:3 HD signal, or at least that's my read of the settings.


On a 4:3 Display a HD widescreen broadcast would still be translated into 16:9 and as a result will give you the black bars at top and bottom unless you have a Zoom or aspect ratio setting enabled to correct the aspect ratio.


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

The 4x3 settings on DISH receivers work like this: (I could have 1 & 2 reversed)

Setting #1 is for sets that automatically squeeze a 720p/1080i signal to letterbox. 
Basically the same as if you would use the 16x9 setting.

Setting #2 is for sets (like mine) that need the STB to squeeze the image down to letterbox to get OAR for the HD channels. With this type you get SD channels full screen OAR.


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## sluggo (Sep 16, 2004)

n0qcu said:


> The 4x3 settings on DISH receivers work like this: (I could have 1 & 2 reversed)
> 
> Setting #1 is for sets that automatically squeeze a 720p/1080i signal to letterbox.
> Basically the same as if you would use the 16x9 setting.
> ...


4X3 #1 is when the TV has built in vertical compression and digitally creates the black bars at the top and bottom forcing the 1080 lines into the 16X9 (or letterbox) format giving you a very high quality HD picture. 
4X3 #2 uses scan lines to create the black bars at the top and bottom leaving less than 16X9 for letterboxing thereby giving you a pircutre that is not quite as quality as the 4X3 #1.
The next step is to check if your TV has a feature called vertical compression.


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## tonyp56 (Apr 26, 2004)

Even though the 811 has a setting for 4x3 it doesn't mean you won't have bars! Just like DVD players that have widescreen or pan and scan, you can still have bars on them, so why wouldn't you on the 811. It is the same concept, if the program is in 16x9 then no matter what he 811 does it will have bars! Now you can reduce that effect by using your TV's zoom if it has it. And perhaps a little bit with the 811 zoom feature. (stretch, full zoom, etc.) But with a 4x3 TV you are going to have bars, or you are going to cut off a lot on each side. You need horizonal compression not vertical.


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## user1168 (Feb 14, 2005)

Many thanks to all that provided feedback. I now understand how the 811's different formats are supposed to work. I was thinking, and even hoping, that they would work differently by outputting a signal that would be 4:3 to fill the screen.

IMHO it would be nice to be able to fill the screen when ESPN broadcasts SD on their HD feed rather than get the goofy "ESPN" bars on the sides. The quality of the HD feed is always better even if the programming is in SD. I have also noticed some other shows that appear to be filmed in 4:3 (for example, "Road Trip" on Discovery HD Theater) where the image appears "squashed" to fit 16:9. When I change the output format the picture is noticebly more to scale but it then displays bars on the top, bottom and both sides of my TV. On a 16:9 TV you would only get the side bars and since most HDTVs are 16:9 this is not likely to be something that would be changed.

Again, thanks for the feedback.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

user1168 said:


> ... I have also noticed some other shows that appear to be filmed in 4:3 (for example, "Road Trip" on Discovery HD Theater) where the image appears "squashed" to fit 16:9. When I change the output format the picture is noticebly more to scale but it then displays bars on the top, bottom and both sides of my TV. On a 16:9 TV you would only get the side bars and since most HDTVs are 16:9 this is not likely to be something that would be changed.
> 
> Again, thanks for the feedback.


Road Trip has never shown up with side bars on Discovery HD (at least not on MY set), and it has always been in the correct scale. I have to believe that there is some setting (either on the 811 or your TV, or both) that will allow you to watch HD with just black bars on the top and bottom of the screen, and the middle in HD. If you do a full zoom on your TV, you might have a full screen of HD, but you'd be missing 1/3 of the picture being broadcast.


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

I have been wondering about this also. I have a Sony 32HS420. Most of the content we watch is 4:3, but occasionally we try to make use of the HD Pak. For all situations I use the 4:3 #1 on the 811. I leave the TV on 16:9 Auto.

For 4:3 content I just leave the setting on 480p and it shows up 4:3. (See if this wouldn't solve your problem.) The TV can accept any of the resolutions. I don't know if it's a big NO-NO to do this, or if I'm not "getting the most" from my 811. But it makes the 4:3 content show up full-screen. Actually, the SD channels seem to be EVER so SLIGHTLY wider than 4:3, and my TV tries to cram it all in, so we leave it on HD: Stretch and there is no distortion at all. MANY THANKS to whoever invented that setting!

For HD (16:9) content I go in and change it to 720p or 1080i on the STB. (Which is the right one??  ) Kind of a pain to get it there, but I'm getting used to it. For these resolutions I have it set to HD: Normal. I try not to watch ESPN-HD, it just makes me mad to see those goofy dray bars, but we did watch the Winter X Games. You might try setting the TV to Zoom instead of Normal. I haven't played with it in a few weeks, but I think that would work.

Also, I have the STB hooked up to the TV with component cables. (And optical to the amp.) I also have composite going out of the 811 to the VCR to record 24 for DH, who has bowling on Monday nights. There are PQ issues with this, but that's another topic for another discussion. :nono2:


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

OK, I think I need to break out the anamorphic widescreen definitions again.

Better yet, this website has one of the best writeup's I have seen on Anamorphic vs. Pan and Scan (16:9 vs 4:3) as well as film ratios, etc. It has a 7 meg downloadable guide.


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

Jason Nipp said:


> OK, I think I need to break out the anamorphic widescreen definitions again.
> 
> Better yet, this website has one of the best writeup's I have seen on Anamorphic vs. Pan and Scan (16:9 vs 4:3) as well as film ratios, etc. It has a 7 meg downloadable guide.


 

[Far be it for me to question a moderator. :nono2: ]

This site is all about DVD's and we were talking about satellite feed, specifically via the 811, I thought... What am I missing? I know I'm a newbie, but please don't run me off, as this seems like a good place for info.


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## GravelChan (Jan 30, 2005)

user1168 said:


> I have an HD TV that is 4:3 rather than widescreen. The 811 has setup options for 4:3 however none of them makes a difference on my TV, the image is always displayed in widescreen. Does anyone know if this is an issue with the 811 or could it be my TV?
> Thanks.


On my 921 I use 4/3 #1. Then for a 4/3 set use the "*" (Format) button to choose "Zoom", which will fill the screen. On my 16/9 Toshiba I then choose "Theatre wide 1" to fill the screen. It's a little out of proportion but the Tosh does a very good job of stretching the pix. On a 4/3 set and with an actual 16/9 broadcast choose "letterbox" on the "*" button. You will of course then 
have the black bars top/bottom.

Chan


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Laverne said:


> [Far be it for me to question a moderator. :nono2: ]
> 
> This site is all about DVD's and we were talking about satellite feed, specifically via the 811, I thought... What am I missing? I know I'm a newbie, but please don't run me off, as this seems like a good place for info.


Although this has nothing to do with the 3 setup modes of the 811, it does explain what widescreen is. There is, or at least used to be a write up on that site explaining the difference between Widescreen 16:9 and Pan and Scan (4:3). Although the site is rooted upon DVD, the technology it is describing is similar. I remember it very well depicted what a 16:9 picture looked like on a 4:3 screen and vice versa, stretch impacts, etc. This thread has bordered on asking; "Why would I still see side or top and bottom bars" kinda questions. This is why I posted this link. I am also really tired so if I am rambling on incoherently I apologize.

BTW...Newbies are welcome here!


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

Jason Nipp said:


> Although this has nothing to do with the 3 setup modes of the 811, it does explain what widescreen is. This thread has bordered on asking; "Why would I still see side or top and bottom bars" kinda questions.
> BTW...Newbies are welcome here!


I did not ask that, nor would I. That part I have figured out. 

I see now that my original post was a bit ambiguous. What I SHOULD have said was that "I HAD been wondering about this". I was just trying to post my personal experiences, since user1168 had a 4:3 Sony like me (although mine is smaller  ). Maybe he will come back and see he is not alone in this world...

I guess my question that kind of goes along with his would be is it *OK* to leave the 811 set on 480p for all 4:3 content? (user1168 was wanting a setting that would output material in 4:3 to fill the screen, although I personally would choose to letterbox all HD content.) And which is better between 720p and 1080i as far as the STB is concerned, since my TV will accept both? I have looked but can't seem to find this answer. It certainly wasn't in the manual from E*, which I believe just said to set it to whichever your TV would accept. Should I post this in a new thread? (Believe me, I have plenty of questions to populate this forum, and I'm not afraid to ask....)

And thanks! I have several questions that I really should ask over at AVSForum, but you guys seem a lot nicer!


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

Laverne said:


> ... And thanks! I have several questions that I really should ask over at AVSForum, but you guys seem a lot nicer!


Awww! :group:


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Laverne said:


> And which is better between 720p and 1080i as far as the STB is concerned, since my TV will accept both?


If you are stickler for PQ you want to set to the resolution of the outputted channel so the 811 does not convert. You also have to consider what the native resolution of your TV is. I have a Sony GWII and I keep it at 1080i. I tried 720p and found that 1080i in this configuration was much better. Best advice I can give is give both a try and see what you prefer. This is one of those YMMV questions and it depends on your TV. Some do better with 720p going in and others do better with 1080i.

Cheers,

Ron


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> If you are stickler for PQ you want to set to the resolution of the outputted channel so the 811 does not convert. You also have to consider what the native resolution of your TV is. I have a Sony GWII and I keep it at 1080i. I tried 720p and found that 1080i in this configuration was much better. Best advice I can give is give both a try and see what you prefer. This is one of those YMMV questions and it depends on your TV. Some do better with 720p going in and others do better with 1080i.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ron


Laverne, to go one step further I agree with Ron. Most should look best at the display's native. I would also suggest trying all 3 and seeing which one you prefer, though the differences will be very subtle on displays smaller than 32". I have run into a case where I have 2 displays running off my 811. My 50" LCD I believe looks best at 1080i, but my 37" looks best at 720p. In my case I just leave the 811 at 1080. Because I have distributed DVI this optimum setting for each display won't help me much. So I will set the output for best results on the display I watch most.

As far as the rest of your questions, there is a Home Theater forum within DBSTalk. However go ahead and ask, most of the guys on DBSTalk are very helpful. Ron or myself may move your posts to the General Dishnet forum area thought, as this particular forum was setup for 811 technical support.

You seem pretty knowledgable, I am sure you'll like it here. Just watchout for Ron.


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## ypsiguy (Jan 28, 2004)

I have an old Toshiba CN36x81 4x3 HD ready set. It doesn't have any way to change between 16x9 or 4x3, nor input resolutions. What any box sends to it, it shows unaltered and only for 480p and 1080i. The set was bought in Fall '00 and does not have a vertical compression feature. By the way you guys are talking, if I set the 811 to 480p and use 4x3 setting #2, the 811 will output 4x3 content in full screen and the 16x9 content will come through in a letterboxed DVD-like quality. Am I correct? As a side question, are most of the HD channels now using a 1.78 to 1 aspect ratio? Reason I ask this is early on, when I had Comcast HD, HBO-HD seemed to use 2.35 to 1 on a lot of the movies. I am wondering if they are reformatting the movies to 1.78 to 1 now.

I just ordered the 811 on the lease deal and am wondering which settings to use.


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## Grampa67 (Mar 14, 2005)

user1168 said:


> Many thanks to all that provided feedback. I now understand how the 811's different formats are supposed to work. I was thinking, and even hoping, that they would work differently by outputting a signal that would be 4:3 to fill the screen.
> 
> IMHO it would be nice to be able to fill the screen when ESPN broadcasts SD on their HD feed rather than get the goofy "ESPN" bars on the sides. The quality of the HD feed is always better even if the programming is in SD. I have also noticed some other shows that appear to be filmed in 4:3 (for example, "Road Trip" on Discovery HD Theater) where the image appears "squashed" to fit 16:9. When I change the output format the picture is noticebly more to scale but it then displays bars on the top, bottom and both sides of my TV. On a 16:9 TV you would only get the side bars and since most HDTVs are 16:9 this is not likely to be something that would be changed.
> 
> Again, thanks for the feedback.


On my Sony 36xbr450 I have 2 inputs from the 811 one component and 1 s-video. I watch the sd programing using the s-video.


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## Jon Spackman (Feb 7, 2005)

In case it has not been mentioned yet. HD=16X9. If its HD is WILL be 16X9 (or could be 2.35:1 or 2.40:1 if its a movie). There will never be HD in 4:3. I think guy who started this thread was asking why all the shows (SD and HD) are shown with black bars. It is because the 811 does not have native format output to output 480i on SD shows and 1080i or 720p or even 480p when the show is that resolution. I wish dish would add that feature i hate watching shows that are not HD on my 921 in zoom. 

My question to the original poster would be : Does your sony tv allow aspect control with a 1080i input? (which is everything when the 811 is set to 1080i). If so then play with the sony settings and or partial zoom or zoom to see what looks best for SD. Im sure HD looks great for him/her.

Jon


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

[Heavy nostalgic sigh...]
My _very first _ posts!


Laverne said:


> [Far be it for me to question a moderator. :nono2: ]


Sorry, Jason! :grin:

j5races, the Sony 4:3 TVs have their own zoom for 16:9 content, so between the TV and the 811 the OP could have just about any combination he/she wants. However, he/she hasn't been back in a little while....

Maybe someone smarter than me could help ypsiguy out with his questions. There seems to be some difference of opinion regarding the 4x3 #1 and 4x3 #2 settings.


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## ypsiguy (Jan 28, 2004)

Laverne said:


> [Heavy nostalgic sigh...]
> My _very first _ posts!Sorry, Jason! :grin:
> 
> j5races, the Sony 4:3 TVs have their own zoom for 16:9 content, so between the TV and the 811 the OP could have just about any combination he/she wants. However, he/she hasn't been back in a little while....
> ...


I'll tinker with the settings when I get the 811. If I get a setting where 4x3 SD is full screen and HD comes in full screen, but with the slight picture squeeze indicative of a 16x9 shown a 4x3 set, I can tolerate that. Or if it just letterboxes for 16x9, I can handle that too.


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## Jon Spackman (Feb 7, 2005)

"I have an HD TV that is 4:3 rather than widescreen. The 811 has setup options for 4:3 however none of them makes a difference on my TV, the image is always displayed in widescreen. Does anyone know if this is an issue with the 811 or could it be my TV?"

So you don't even have a 811 yet and your asking which setting is best for your setup? Why not just wait and try it out first?


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## ypsiguy (Jan 28, 2004)

ypsiguy said:


> I'll tinker with the settings when I get the 811. If I get a setting where 4x3 SD is full screen and HD comes in full screen, but with the slight picture squeeze indicative of a 16x9 shown a 4x3 set, I can tolerate that. Or if it just letterboxes for 16x9, I can handle that too.


I got the 811 yesterday and have it running. Only complaint I have is that it looks like they are using a cheaper line doubler to convert 480i to 480p for the component outputs. I already prefer using the S-video/composite outputs for viewing SD channels and letting my Toshiba do the line doubling. Looks like I will then switch over to component output whenever I desire to watch a particular program in HD, thus avoiding the use of the 811's cheap line doubler.


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## Laverne (Feb 17, 2005)

ypsiguy, do you have it set on 4x3 #1 or did you have to go with 4x3 #2? Just curious....


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## Jon Spackman (Feb 7, 2005)

Glad you got your 811. The HD picture is nice huh?

I only wish dish would give us what directv has___NATIVE resoultion. it rocks!!!
If a show is Sd then the box would output 480i, and if its 720p then it send out 720p or 1080i if your tv won't take it. that way we would not ahve to use a stretch mode but could use the one in the Tv which is almost always better. We can only dream right?

Jason: is dish working on native for any of their hd boxes?? 942,921,6000,811???

thanks Jon


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## ypsiguy (Jan 28, 2004)

Laverne said:


> ypsiguy, do you have it set on 4x3 #1 or did you have to go with 4x3 #2? Just curious....


I can say at this point I will most often use the S-video composite outputs. A letterbox of 16x9 SD is very tolerable on my two 36" 4x3 TV's. I am a guy who likes widescreen a LOT. I have to tinker a bit more before I can say which settings I will use for the component output. I'll let you know which settings seem to become my favorites. I am also trying to bypass that line doubler on the 811. It really murks up the SD picture.


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## ypsiguy (Jan 28, 2004)

j5races said:


> Glad you got your 811. The HD picture is nice huh?
> 
> I only wish dish would give us what directv has___NATIVE resoultion. it rocks!!!
> If a show is Sd then the box would output 480i, and if its 720p then it send out 720p or 1080i if your tv won't take it. that way we would not ahve to use a stretch mode but could use the one in the Tv which is almost always better. We can only dream right?
> ...


I was already watching HD through my Samsung OTA box. The Sammy does better than the 811 picture-wise, but the 811 does a good job on bringing all signals together. It is really nice to be able to view all signals on one box. I used to have a Motorola HD box when I had Comcast. What a piece of .... The 811 is a better box and would be made even better if it had a NATIVE setting to bypass the line doubler.

I think your suggestion to Jason is a good one.

On a complete sidenote. The 811 looks a lot like the old M/A-Com Videocipher II boxes. They were silver with a darker keypad area in the center of the panel. My parents had one with their old BUD.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

j5races said:


> Jason: is dish working on native for any of their hd boxes?? 942,921,6000,811?


I'll ask, but I don't think you'll see this feature on a 6K or 811, perhaps the next gen 8 series.


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## LG811User (Jan 12, 2005)

I second that request (or probably third, fourth, or fifth it by now)...native resolution would be great!


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## ypsiguy (Jan 28, 2004)

Laverne said:


> ypsiguy, do you have it set on 4x3 #1 or did you have to go with 4x3 #2? Just curious....


I am using the SD outputs mostly now, except for when I want to see a select program in HD. Then I switch over to my component input on my Toshiba. The 811 HD output is set to 1080i and 16x9. I put up with the picture squeeze, because I found the 4x3 settings didn't help much. The 4x3 settings may help on a set with vertical compression, but I don't have it. Its a Toshiba from Fall '00.


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