# Whole home set-up. Does this make any sense?



## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

So, the installer was out here today to convert my MRV from my home network to DECA and to replace my multi-switches with SWiM. When he got out here, he realized that I have 5 DVR's and 1 H21. That's when he figured out that an 8 port SWiM wasn't going to work. 

So... he went round and round with his supervisor and Direct TV. Finally they came to the conclusion that they would come back next week. The plan is to keep my two daisy-chained Zinwall 6x8 multi-switches in place and add in something he kept calling a SWiM extender. He claims that by doing that, the whole mess will provide DECA connectivity throughout the house.

I was under the impression that all switches had to be SWiM for DECA to work. Was I wrong? Does what the installer is telling me make sense to anyone? Assuming it does, does it also mean that I'll have to continue to run two wires to rooms with DVR's?

Thanks!


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Nope. You must have the SWM-16. No shortcuts.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

You have to have a SWM-16


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

pecocus said:


> ...The plan is to keep my two daisy-chained Zinwall 6x8 multi-switches in place and add in something he kept calling a SWiM extender....


A SWiM expander is for two SWM8's. This will not do the job as the boxes on one SWM8 switch will not communicate with the boxes on the other (it's the equivilant of two completely separate networks.) The correct path (as others already noted) is a SWM16. Accept nothing less...


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> You have to have a SWM-16


That's what I thought too, but the installer is saying the SWM16 won't be out for two months.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

pecocus said:


> That's what I thought too, but the installer is saying the SWM16 won't be out for two months.


They're definitely out. Their warehouse may not have them in stock, but SWM16's are already being installed by techs.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

dsw2112 said:


> They're definitely out. Their warehouse may not have them in stock, but SWM16's are already being installed by techs.


So... let's assume that they can't get their hands on SWM16's for whatever reason. It sounds like two SWM8's with a SWiM extender would work, yes?


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## Hdhead (Jul 30, 2007)

Another swm16 horror story.:icon_dumm:bang


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

pecocus said:


> So... let's assume that they can't get their hands on SWM16's for whatever reason. It sounds like two SWM8's with a SWiM extender would work, yes?


NO, as already stated, 2 SWM8's with the expander will not work. You will end up with 2 seperate clouds that will not see each other.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

RobertE said:


> NO, as already stated, 2 SWM8's with the expander will not work. You will end up with 2 seperate clouds that will not see each other.


Then I'm really baffled now... my understanding of the purpose of the SWiM extender was to connect two SWiM switches. I guess the difference is the DECA part.

Just got off the phone with Direct TV upgrade group and they're saying the two SWM8's with the extender is the way to go if SWM16's aren't available in my area. For whatever reason, they couldn't confirm or deny SWM16 availability.

Edit: Still arguing with Direct TV over this. Trying to force a SWM16. I've been through Customer Service to Upgrades to Technical Assistance and now she's thinking about sending me to the Network team. Sigh.

Edit 2: Technical Assistance is now saying that Direct TV will only provide 8 port switches. I'm free to buy a 16 port myself. I'm escalating to a supervisor and hoping.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

pecocus said:


> Then I'm really baffled now... my understanding of the purpose of the SWiM extender was to connect two SWiM switches. I guess the difference is the DECA part.
> 
> Just got off the phone with Direct TV upgrade group and they're saying the two SWM8's with the extender is the way to go if SWM16's aren't available in my area. For whatever reason, they couldn't confirm or deny SWM16 availability.


It won't work. At least not without some fudging.

Using 2 swm8s with the expander will create 2 seperate clouds. No different than you having a single swm8 and the same for your neighbor across the street. The clouds will never see each other without some sort of bridge.

The fudge would be would be to connect each swm8 cloud to your home network with a deca adapter. While that will work, it will create a choke point. All traffic from one cloud to the other will have to go through that point.

The correct way is the SWM16.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

RobertE said:


> It won't work. At least not without some fudging.
> 
> Using 2 swm8s with the expander will create 2 seperate clouds. No different than you having a single swm8 and the same for your neighbor across the street. The clouds will never see each other without some sort of bridge.
> 
> ...


Yep... Direct TV now agrees with you.  The thing we're arguing about now is that they say they won't provide a SWM16 and I have to buy it myself "elsewhere" if I want one.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

pecocus said:


> Yep... Direct TV now agrees with you.  The thing we're arguing about now is that they say they won't provide a SWM16 and I have to buy it myself "elsewhere" if I want one.


_Only_ $300 :eek2:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...ply-(16-Channel)-(SWM16)&c=Multiswitches&sku=


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

pecocus said:


> Yep... Direct TV now agrees with you.  The thing we're arguing about now is that they say they won't provide a SWM16 and I have to buy it myself "elsewhere" if I want one.


Baby steps. Getting closer, but they are still wrong. It's on them to supply any and all materials to support your setup.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Baby steps. Getting closer, but they are still wrong. It's on them to supply any and all materials to support your setup.


I hope they see it the same way. After escalation to a supervisor, she said she was going to "look into it" and call me back.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> _Only_ $300 :eek2:
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...ply-(16-Channel)-(SWM16)&c=Multiswitches&sku=


Yeah.... that kind of makes the $99 + $49 deal not so good.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

So... after spending all day on and off the phone with various supervisors, here's the deal...

1. The local installer can't get their hands on a SWM16 for unknown reasons.
2. Direct TV is "unable" to ship either them or me a SWM16 because, "they just don't do that". 
3. If I want to spend $300 for a SWM16, they'll install it and credit my account for $100. Note the $200 cost I'm supposed to eat.

Bottom line is, after being a loyal Direct TV customer for 10 years AND paying for five DVR's and a H21, they aren't willing and/or able to pony up to upgrade me to MRV/DECA.

I can do the MRV upgrade with my home network, but that's not really the point. It is unbelievable to me that they can't find a SWM16 in the whole stinking world to send to WA state.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Give it a couple of weeks and call back. You'll find that miraculously the story has changed and local techs have SWM16's...


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## jsmuga (Jan 3, 2008)

pecocus said:


> Edit 2: Technical Assistance is now saying that Direct TV will only provide 8 port switches. I'm free to buy a 16 port myself. I'm escalating to a supervisor and hoping.


That is not true D* installed one for me yesterday.


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## Hdhead (Jul 30, 2007)

pecocus said:


> So... after spending all day on and off the phone with various supervisors, here's the deal...
> 
> 1. The local installer can't get their hands on a SWM16 for unknown reasons.
> 2. Direct TV is "unable" to ship either them or me a SWM16 because, "they just don't do that".
> ...


Something is very wrong here. You could always sue them for false advertising. Seriously I would escalate to the office of the President.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

Hdhead said:


> Something is very wrong here. You could always sue them for false advertising. Seriously I would escalate to the office of the President.


I would love to escalate to someone, but I don't know how or who.


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## samrs (May 30, 2004)

We have been installing SWM 16's... for people who need them.

Nine MRV compatable tuners equal SWM 16.

Eight MRV compatable tuners and several NON-MRV compatable tuners equal two SWM 8's.

It is what it is.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

I concur. However the local installer says they won't have SWM16's for "a couple of months" and Direct TV says that's not their problem. They don't provide switches.


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## xmetalx (Jun 3, 2009)

pecocus said:


> I concur. However the local installer says they won't have SWM16's for "a couple of months" and Direct TV says that's not their problem. They don't provide switches.


Work order modification line possibly.. that would put a SWM16 on the work order, and the HSP would be FORCED to fulfill it, no ifs and or buts. (trust me, even if they're out of stock, they can get them from another local HSP, or request a shipment from their distribution centers...)

This would also put the responsibility back on D* to fulfill their offer to you, as it should be IMHO.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

I'd let them install the SWM8s and when it doesn't work, complain until they promise to bring in the SWM16. My install included the SWM16 and I did not have to ask, it was just a part of the order.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Yea...it sounds like you havn't spoken to the "right" people in the know yet. SWM16 should be provided. 

With respect...and you have been  ...be a little more patient and maybe try to call back again and give it another shot.

Keep us posted.


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## dwcolvin (Oct 4, 2007)

Be firm. _Insist_ on a SWiM-16. Get D* to put it on the work order.

You can not have MRV with over 8 tuners without a SWiM-16... it's part of what you're paying for with the 'Whole Home DVR' installation. :soapbox:


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Yea...it sounds like you havn't spoken to the "right" people in the know yet. SWM16 should be provided.
> 
> With respect...and you have been  ...be a little more patient and maybe try to call back again and give it another shot.
> 
> Keep us posted.


Yeah... I hear you.

After 45 minutes with yet another supervisor, they've rescheduled a service call for Tuesday afternoon. It took me almost half of that time to convince/educate the supervisor on why a SWM16 was required. She swears they'll be bringing one out, but I'll believe it when I see it.

I have to say, it seems Direct TV has done an exceptionally poor job at prepping their CSR's and their installers. Being an IT guy, I really do understand that glitches happen when new systems roll out. But this is training of their own people and there really isn't anyone else to blame.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

dwcolvin said:


> Be firm. _Insist_ on a SWiM-16. Get D* to put it on the work order.
> 
> You can not have MRV with over 8 tuners without a SWiM-16... it's part of what you're paying for with the 'Whole Home DVR' installation. :soapbox:


Thank you, I just did that. Now... if they actually show up with one will be the next interesting report.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

I think we all agree that many of the front line folks do not have the correct answers to many questions/situations. This is not surprising, and as many have said is probably to be expected. What is surprising (and obviously quite frustrating) is their inability to get the correct information from "up the chain." 

A correct approach would involve a group of thoroughly trained employees dedicated to only assisting CSR's and techs with the "tough" questions....an internal hotline if you will. This may be the case, but since I'm not on the inside I don't really know. It certainly doesn't appear that employees have a central source for the correct info though... 

A "central knowledge authority" is a technique I have personally seen utilized with great success across several companies (especially during rollouts.) A properly trained internal D* group would do wonders for the DECA upgrade process, and for customer service.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

dsw2112 said:


> I think we all agree that many of the front line folks do not have the correct answers to many questions/situations. This is not surprising, and as many have said is probably to be expected. What is surprising (and obviously quite frustrating) is their inability to get the correct information from "up the chain."
> 
> A correct approach would involve a group of thoroughly trained employees dedicated to only assisting CSR's and techs with the "tough" questions....an internal hotline if you will. This may be the case, but since I'm not on the inside I don't really know. It certainly doesn't appear that employees have a central source for the correct info though...
> 
> A "central knowledge authority" is a technique I have personally seen utilized with great success across several companies (especially during rollouts.) A properly trained internal D* group would do wonders for the DECA upgrade process, and for customer service.


There is such a number to a very well versed people at DirecTv. Any installer who has been paying attention should have this number and access code.


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## hitokage (Jan 19, 2010)

pecocus said:


> I would love to escalate to someone, but I don't know how or who.


You can try calling the 800 number again, and at the prompts say "cancel service" (even though that's not what you want). Once you finally get connected to someone, explain the situation, and hopefully they'll be able to resolve it.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

RobertE said:


> There is such a number to a very well versed people at DirecTv. Any installer who has been paying attention should have this number and access code.


While I believe you, that wasn't in evidence during the aborted installation attempt. The installer spoke to his supervisor and to the Direct TV Order Modification line. The Order Modification line folks were who told him to use two 8 port switches with a SWiM extender. As you and many others pointed out to me, not such a good idea. 

To keep the fun going, I spent 45 minutes last night on the phone with them yet again. This time, I was simply trying to get MRV enabled using my home network. The first tech knew what I want to do, but couldn't get his system to do it. He sent me to technical support who insisted I needed DECA and set up another appointment. I realize I don't need DECA, but (supposedly) the work order now specifies a SWM16, so we'll see what happens Tuesday afternoon.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

Well, new installer out here right now. Still brought 2 8 ports that he wanted to daisychain with an extender. After that discussion, now the plan is to upgrade my dish to an SWim dish, then run the cable from the dish to some kind of 8 port splitter. These guys swear you only need one line per DVR from the splitter. We'll see.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

pecocus said:


> Well, new installer out here right now. Still brought 2 8 ports that he wanted to daisychain with an extender. After that discussion, now the plan is to upgrade my dish to an SWim dish, then run the cable from the dish to some kind of 8 port splitter. *These guys swear you only need one line per DVR from the splitter*. We'll see.


They're right!


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

However, even though there is only 1 cable to each DVR, it still counts as 2 tuners. If you have more than 8 tuners, a SWiM dish (LNB) will not work.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

pecocus said:


> Well, new installer out here right now. Still brought 2 8 ports that he wanted to daisychain with an extender. After that discussion, now the plan is to upgrade my dish to an SWim dish, then run the cable from the dish to some kind of 8 port splitter. These guys swear you only need one line per DVR from the splitter. We'll see.


SWiM dish = SWMLnb. 
SWMLnb = 8 tuners MAX
5 DVR's and 1 receiver = 11 tuners. 
2 SWM8's will handle 11 tuners, but will NOT MRV from one SWM8 to another (so some receivers will not "see" each other)
Legacy LNB to SWM16 is the ONLY choice. There is no substitute.

The tech is going backwards by installing a SWMLnb. I mentioned earlier in the thread that it would be wise to cancel install and wait several weeks for these kinks to work themselves out, I'll reiterate that advice now... Until they understand that you REQUIRE a SWM16 your install will not be correct.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

pecocus said:


> Well, new installer out here right now. Still brought 2 8 ports that he wanted to daisychain with an extender. After that discussion, now the plan is to upgrade my dish to an SWim dish, then run the cable from the dish to some kind of 8 port splitter. These guys swear you only need one line per DVR from the splitter. We'll see.


Probably too late, but don't let him do it.

You will be limited to 8 TUNERS, not receivers, but tuners. 4 Dvrs or 8 non-DVRs, or some mix inbetween.

Some guys have been misinformed that they can run 8 DVRS by using a 8 way splitter. Completely and utterly false.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

I just showed all your posts to the installer and he's completely confused now. It's his first MRV/DECA install and his boss is telling him to make the 8 port work. ::sigh::

I feel sorry for the guy, but I'm also getting ready to explode over this.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

pecocus said:


> I just showed all your posts to the installer and he's completely confused now. It's his first MRV/DECA install and his boss is telling him to make the 8 port work. ::sigh::
> 
> I feel sorry for the guy, but I'm also getting ready to explode over this.


I wish you luck, but the fact is your situation isn't a lack of knowledge, it's a lack of appropriate hardware. Someone on this forum could guide you (or the installer) through almost any setup imaginable (IF you have the correct hardware.) Since the tech does not have a SWM16 there's no going forward. Yes, there are "band-aids" that can be utilized to make two SWM8's "talk" to each other, BUT that wouldn't be a supported configuration...

In the end the tech's boss wants the job completed, so everyone can move on. Unfortunetely, the tech will be right back tomorrow to "fix" the setup if he installs dual SWM8's or a SWMLnb --with a chargeback I might add. This is the time to lick your wounds and send the tech on his way. You'll have to wait until SWM16's are in better supply to complete your install...


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

So... after lots of "discussion" with the techs supervisor, they have come to the epihony that a SWM16 is required. Furthermore, they have magically found one in thier warehouse (they claim). 

We shall see... supposedly they will be back tomorrow with a SWM16.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

pecocus said:


> So... after lots of "discussion" with the techs supervisor, they have come to the epihony that a SWM16 is required. Furthermore, they have magically found one in thier warehouse (they claim).
> 
> We shall see... supposedly they will be back tomorrow with a SWM16.


:joy:

Just make sure they're not referring to this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...itch-(WB616)&c=Multiswitches&sku=874409000264

It's not a SWM16 and it will not work...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dsw2112 said:


> :joy:
> 
> Just make sure they're not referring to this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=02&p=WB616&d=Zinwell-WB616-DIRECTV-Wide-Band-6x16-MultiSwitch-(WB616)&c=Multiswitches&sku=874409000264
> 
> It's not a SWM16 and it will not work...


those were flushed out some time back so the odds aren't very good:
*Availability:* Discontinued (Not Available)


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

dsw2112 said:


> :joy:
> 
> Just make sure they're not referring to this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...itch-(WB616)&c=Multiswitches&sku=874409000264
> 
> It's not a SWM16 and it will not work...


Understood. I know that, but thank you for the tip just in case!


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> They're definitely out. Their warehouse may not have them in stock, but SWM16's are already being installed by techs.


Agreed. I just had one installed today.


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## matsfan (Sep 9, 2006)

dsw2112 said:


> A SWiM expander is for two SWM8's. This will not do the job as the boxes on one SWM8 switch will not communicate with the boxes on the other (it's the equivilant of two completely separate networks.) The correct path (as others already noted) is a SWM16. Accept nothing less...


This is the exact position I am in right now. Distribution is closed for the night so I am supposed to get a call in the morning on local availability of the SWM16. Installer agreed the current solution will not cut it.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

Well... after 3 different days of techs coming out (costing me 2 days of vacation), numerous hours on the phone arguing with the technicians supervisor and Direct TV and lots of help from you folks, MRV with DECA is up and running. 

It wasn't painless though. Today (3rd day), the tech finally showed up with a SWM16 switch and installed it. Upgraded the DVR's the needed upgraded, hooked up all the DECA boxes, then got to the point where he had to interject the Internet from my router. He didn't know how to do that. He tried various ways, then gave up and said he'd be back tomorrow with some help. He did, however, leave all the pieces and parts. After reviewing this board and the diagrams available, I had it up and running in about 10 minutes. 

Oh yeah... the best part. When the tech couldn't get DECA to work because he wasn't interjecting an Internet connection correctly, he tried to tell me the problem was that the SWM16 wasn't designed to pass DECA signals because of all the legacy ports on them. Sigh.

Thank you VERY much to all of you that chipped in with advice and knowledge. It was unbelievably difficult, but it's done, thanks to you.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Congratulations on your CORRECT install! Now you just need to update your sig


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

Oh yeah!


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

pecocus said:


> I concur. However the local installer says they won't have SWM16's for "a couple of months" and Direct TV says that's not their problem. They don't provide switches.


As someone else mentioned, you are best off waiting 2-3 weeks and reordering. The problem here is that the local HSP hasn't ordered SWM16s, either because they don't think they need to (and are quickly going to learn that they are wrong), or because they simply don't want to spend the money. And SWM16s are in short supply, and are on allocation (each HSP can only order so many, depending on their recent overall job counts).

After they screw up a few installs and have a few OOPs (letters to the Office of the President), the HSP will pull their head out and get some SWM16s.

Again, remember that SWM16s were JUST released and they ARE in short supply. New DirecTV equipment always is.

Either send an email to Ellen Filipiak, Sr VP of Customer Relations([email protected]), or just wait a couple of weeks and reorder. No need to get worked up over it OR get screwed on the cost of a SWM16. Ellen's team will get it straightened out, but give them a few days to deal with it, as they're likely getting a flood of issues right now.


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## pecocus (Feb 13, 2006)

Thank you for the advice, but as I noted in the post above, the issue is now resolved.


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