# Would you Release Candidate Test... If it was available?



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I have had a bunch of people PM me directly, and post in threads...

Asking me if I am a Beta tester for DTV, or how to become one, or just say I am a Beta tester for them.

*AS OF THIS MOMENT --- DirecTV has no offical formal non-employee BETA test program.*

If they did and I was apart of it, then I would have to pretty much be mute around here, do to NDAs... (as anyone that has been a part of Beta's know)

--------------

So kinda to get a more global feel.

If there was an opportunity to Beta Test "Release Candidates"

Would you do it?

NOTE: I'll save you the effort... yes.. I know a bunch of you think we are already beta tester's now........


----------



## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Hell yeah! That way I'd know my voice was being heard. (not saying your not a voice for us Earl)


----------



## Xram (Nov 19, 2005)

I definately would.


----------



## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

I'll even take this one step further. I would love to beta test the whole house unit. This is the major reason I ditched the UTV's for the R15's. I want to be able to watch my recorded programs on any TV.


----------



## DesignDawg (Jan 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have had a bunch of people PM me directly, and post in threads...
> 
> Asking me if I am a Beta tester for DTV, or how to become one, or just say I am a Beta tester for them.
> 
> ...


No doubt. I got into the R15 for the purpose of seeing where DirecTV was going. It hasn't become mission critical for me, and at the moment, my R15 is set up MAINLY JUST to see how it develops. To be a part of that process would be a natural extension.

Ricky


----------



## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Absolutely.

Edit: Don't charge me the mirroring fee for it though...


----------



## dgib (Nov 16, 2005)

Yes I would do it.


----------



## brykc14 (Jun 14, 2004)

Oh Yessssss...And I think if D* would let real users test it we could get a box the would blow all others out of the market.


----------



## terrylmc (Dec 22, 2005)

You bet. I would also.


----------



## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

No way are you kidding ! There are enough problems now with the actual releases and I cant imagine the problems in the Betas.

Now when they ever get all the bugs worked out and the unit is stable THEN I would offer to test new features.


----------



## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Don't know if this would change anyone's mind, but FWIW, if they were to do a reasonable beta, they should really require you to use the box running the beta in your primary viewing location. I know quite a few here have moved their R15 to a bedroom or office or something.

I don't have one, so I won't vote, but I think I'd have to agree with Bobman on this one. I've tested every single software release for the DTiVos except it's initial release (hey, my testing days are clearly over for them anyway, so I'm not afraid to admit that now). And I felt confident running even early beta software in my living room, because it was clear to me they have a good software development process. I don't think I feel that way about DirecTV today.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Just to add to what walters said, keep in mind that a Beta Test program is not a bunch of fun and games. It's typically not a "try to break" the unit task. I Beta tested some software releases for DirecWay years ago. We were given task lists and due dates for testing. An entire script of what to try in those steps.

For example, starting on the 10th we were to test 5 specific functions and report back by the 14th. We would then wait a week of so for the next batch of tasks.

Also be aware that as much as we slam DTV for releasing software that hasn't been beta tested, the software in a real beta test WILL have many more bugs. You may test a release candidate one day, get a new version the next and the unit may not even boot. You could be stuck with a dead R15 for some period of time.

Many of you complain about moving your R15 to your bedroom and reativating your DTivo as the R15 isn't reliable. Beta testing a R15 will be even less reliable.

Last of all. You cannot say a word about what you're doing. No leaks at all!!!

Now, from the DTV standpoint I would encourage them to adopt a program such as this but screen all testers very carefully. Using employees only as a beta testing field has it's own set of problems.

My R15 sits in my home office and I'm in front of it 8-10 hours a day. Although it's not always on as I do need to work. :grin: 

I'd consider a program such as this as I do not depend on the R15. I depend on my other 6 DTivos. My own hacked Home Media Center with a total of 1TB of recording capacity and 8 active DTV tuners.

But if you have one R15 or one DVR, think before you leap at something like this if it were offered.


----------



## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Just to add to what walters said, keep in mind that a Beta Test program is not a bunch of fun and games. It's typically not a "try to break" the unit task. I Beta tested some software releases for DirecWay years ago. We were given task lists and due dates for testing. An entire script of what to try in those steps.
> 
> For example, starting on the 10th we were to test 5 specific functions and report back by the 14th. We would then wait a week of so for the next batch of tasks.
> 
> ...


that's all good but I won't have an issue with it. I'd mirror the testing. I'd have the beta unit in the living room and a non beta so I would have a backup of my programs if it did deside to crash. As a far as keeping my mouth quite and not leaking it, no issues there. I want a working/better unit and would love to help make it possible.


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

I did it for Tivo, Dtivo, why not, sure!


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Yes I definately would Beta the unit, I would just ask for a system to report problem, specific things we need to test and some sort of feedback on whats going on with each release that my unit receives.

With those things given to me I would jump at the chance to try and help with the box and it's issues. I have tested many many pieces of software and as a matter of fact part of my job during the day is something like Earls I have to help track down problems, in code, hardware, software and so forth. So it's something that I can do fairly well


----------



## gimme5 (Jan 28, 2006)

I wouldn't want to do it. The R-15 is already not very reliable as it is, it's probably worse in beta versions.

Of course, if DTV would send me an extra unit to beta test new software, then I'd do it . But I wouldn't want any beta software on my main unit.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> Yes I definately would Beta the unit, I would just ask for a system to report problem, specific things we need to test and some sort of feedback on whats going on with each release that my unit receives.
> 
> With those things given to me I would jump at the chance to try and help with the box and it's issues. I have tested many many pieces of software and as a matter of fact part of my job during the day is something like Earls I have to help track down problems, in code, hardware, software and so forth. So it's something that I can do fairly well


In a beta test program the information generally flows in one direction. From the tester to the development team or even the Beta Team (which then feeds info to the development team). There is typically a system to report the problems but don't count on any type of feedback or info regarding what included in each release.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> In a beta test program the information generally flows in one direction. From the tester to the development team or even the Beta Team (which then feeds info to the development team). There is typically a system to report the problems but don't count on any type of feedback or info regarding what included in each release.


Actually I have found that not to be so. Usually when a new version is released fir testing there are release notes stating that X,Y,Z has been addressed and the known issues are still C,D,E and so forth. If you have no idea whats being worked on then you could be submitting trouble tickets for things that they know are still an issue.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> Actually I have found that not to be so. Usually when a new version is released fir testing there are release notes stating that X,Y,Z has been addressed and the known issues are still C,D,E and so forth. If you have no idea whats being worked on then you could be submitting trouble tickets for things that they know are still an issue.


We've had different experiences then. As I stated, with DirecWay we received a list of screens/web pages/things to test. They didn't mention what changed or what was fixed. You submit problems based on what you ran into, not what has changed. As you put it, if you know A, B and C were changed that doesn't mean one of those changes didn't break E, F or G. Personally I don't think testers should have in-depth knowledge of what was changed/fixed. That would tend to focus the tester on specific areas which then could cause other unexpected problems to bleed through the testing process and hit the customer.

I guess I was really just trying to make sure folks understand that beta testing is work, it has rules, and isn't as glamorous as some might think.


----------



## DesignDawg (Jan 8, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I guess I was really just trying to make sure folks understand that beta testing is work, it has rules, and isn't as glamorous as some might think.


--A noble and wise mission. But it doesn't deter me at all. I've beta tested a thing or two, and I always do it because I am a tinkerer. My job is one of constant problem solving. I just got back from a meeting where I shook hands, said, "No problem", promising to deliver something I've never done before. But I'll figure it out. It's my job. And I'm the same type of person with everything. I like to get all involved in the inner workings, figure out why it works or doesn't, and think about how to fix it or modify it. That's why I'm on these forums in the first place. 
The average consumer does NOT need to know what file system the HDDs in an R15 are, or what software version they are running, or any of this stuff.

I still really love the R15 in theory, and I'm a #1 supporter. But it has already/recently been demoted out of its #1 spot in my house. It's not reliable. --And that's ALWAYS been par for the course with BETA tests I've been involved with. You're never supposed to rely on a beta product for mission critical things. For a DVR, "mission critical" is pretty lax. Does it record "Lost" once a week? So, for making sure my mission is not compromised, I have a DTiVo hooked up in my #1 spot. I still watch the R15, and hope for it to do well. To get involved in a beta test right now would make me even more interested in its development.

Ricky


----------



## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> We've had different experiences then. As I stated, with DirecWay we received a list of screens/web pages/things to test. They didn't mention what changed or what was fixed. You submit problems based on what you ran into, not what has changed. As you put it, if you know A, B and C were changed that doesn't mean one of those changes didn't break E, F or G. Personally I don't think testers should have in-depth knowledge of what was changed/fixed. That would tend to focus the tester on specific areas which then could cause other unexpected problems to bleed through the testing process and hit the customer.
> 
> I guess I was really just trying to make sure folks understand that beta testing is work, it has rules, and isn't as glamorous as some might think.


They didn't even bother telling you "don't look/go/do to this anymore because we took it out"? That wouldn't be a liitle weird but still ok. I just think they wouldn't want to be bothered with everyone saying "I try to look/go to/do this and it's not there" when delevopment know's it's not. I just figured they wouldn't want to have to sift thru/ be bothered by things they already know.


----------



## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> They didn't even bother telling you "don't look/go/do to this anymore because we took it out"? That wouldn't be a liitle weird but still ok. I just think they wouldn't want to be bothered with everyone saying "I try to look/go to/do this and it's not there" when delevopment know's it's not. I just figured they wouldn't want to have to sift thru/ be bothered by things they already know.


There's a time for each. There's a time for "go and do this so we can make sure it's fixed" and there's a time for "just use the thing and hopefully he won't know what we're testing" (somewhat analogous to getting a placebo in a drug trial).

The former is generally for bug fixes, while the latter can be good for new features, usability, etc. (maybe you've got two or more ideas for how to implement something, so you split your testers into blind groups and let them play with it, then get their impressions).


----------



## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

[As gimme5 said] Yes, I would do it if they gave me the testing unit. However, I would not test beta software on the single R15 that my wife, kids, and self are currently relying on.


----------



## Mavrick (Feb 1, 2006)

I would do it also!


----------



## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Yep, my R15 now is basically not doing much due to the SL problems, and I'l using my Tivos. So D* do your worst to it, I don't care, if it would help to get the box to the level it should be at.


----------



## Calebrot (Jan 2, 2006)

Yes, I definitely would do it. I am disabled and spend most of my time in front of the TV and computer (wireless laptop setup on TV Tray), so I never really miss a show that I have in my ToDo list, it's just more for the convenience that I use it. 9 out of 10 times I am actually watching something recording so if the software was bad and the show didn't record, I wouldn't miss the show, and besides that it would give me access to the people that need to know versus the only access we all have right now, that being the clueless CSR's. Definitely a BIG YES!


----------



## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

Yes, but no "mirroring fee" and an additional R15 at "no charge.".........and i get to keep it as well.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Greedy...We are? :money: :money:


----------



## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> Greedy...We are? :money: :money:


Crazy, "we're not" :lol:


----------



## ajseagles3 (Feb 17, 2006)

I feel like I'm testing with none of the percs as it is now, so why not?


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Speak for yourself Donnie!!! :ringo:


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ajseagles3 said:


> I feel like I'm testing with none of the percs as it is now, so why not?


As I've mentioned before, in my experience with beta test programs, there are no perks. Other than getting access to, and trying software that will be very buggy before the general public gets it. Maybe having additional features before the general public.

I have never gotten a phone number for anyone in the development team. I've never gotten an email address for anyone in the development team. I've never gotten any special pricing deals. All I've gotten was the satisfaction that I was providing feedback that would possibly effect the release version and make that release work better for the end user.


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2006)

I would be willing to beta test release candidate software *if* D* provided some incentives (examples: no mirroring fee for test unit, a free premium channel package and/or credit on bill for each month testing is done). I've done beta testing for TiVo and several other companies. Some provided incentives; some didn't.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

tmj30122 said:


> I would be willing to beta test release candidate software *if* D* provided some incentives (examples: no mirroring fee for test unit, a free premium channel package and/or credit on bill for each month testing is done). I've done beta testing for TiVo and several other companies. Some provided incentives; some didn't.


Isn't admitting you ever tested anything for TiVo breaking your NDA and punishable?


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> Isn't admitting you ever tested anything for TiVo breaking your NDA and punishable?


Only when you are in fact Beta testing.


----------



## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

I changed my mind. I think I would become a tester if asked. I now have my R-10 as a backup for the important shows and I am a heavy duty tweaker, heavy duty couchpotato and good at finding/causing problems.


----------



## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/IE/ie7/ie7betaredirect.mspx

If anyone wants to Beta Microsoft Internet Explorer 7

I think this is public now if not I didnt post it  .


----------



## psweig (Feb 4, 2006)

Earl, the thing is, I could tolerate the R15 alot more, if I was told I was a BETA tester. The way it is, we are all unrecognised BETA testers.


----------



## skyem (Feb 27, 2006)

I'd be happy to get the fixes as soon as possible and make them aware of bugs as well as test whatever new features come down the pipe.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> Only when you are in fact Beta testing.


Think you should read that NDA again, you can NEVER tell that you where part of a Beta test with many many companies.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> Think you should read that NDA again, you can NEVER tell that you where part of a Beta test with many many companies.


Oh come on. Every NDA is different. It's specific. If the Tivo NDA said you can never reveal the fact you were part of a Tivo Beta then those are the rules you need to live by.

I've never been in a Tivo beta. Never seen that NDA.


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> Think you should read that NDA again, you can NEVER tell that you where part of a Beta test with many many companies.


Well, they can revoke my remote.

If everyone followed those rules (if that was the rule) than we would never know there was beta testing.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Oh come on. Every NDA is different. It's specific. If the Tivo NDA said you can never reveal the fact you were part of a Tivo Beta then those are the rules you need to live by.
> 
> I've never been in a Tivo beta. Never seen that NDA.


 I was referring more directly to the TiVo


----------



## thumperr (Feb 10, 2006)

I'd be interested.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Kanyon71 said:


> I was referring more directly to the TiVo


Are you speaking from experience?


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Are you speaking from experience?


Experience with them or experience of getting in trouble for saying things i'm not supposed to?


----------



## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

If he told you he'd have to kill you 

OR


For reasons of National Security he can't disclose that 


OR


Since 9/11 we must monitor all conversations for tivoist activity:lol:


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Just so we are clear again...

This discussion for this thread, is related to running "Release Candidate" software. Not betas... similar, but not the same. 

True Betas would be under tighter control and would require some form of "NDA". Release Candidates are those versions of software that the company feels is "ready" to go out to the public, usually AFTER Alpha and Beta testing.... But they want a bigger subset of non-test users to give a shake down before pushing it to 100,000's of boxes...


----------



## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just so we are clear again...
> 
> This discussion for this thread, is related to running "Release Candidate" software. Not betas... similar, but not the same.
> 
> True Betas would be under tighter control and would require some form of "NDA". Release Candidates are those versions of software that the company feels is "ready" to go out to the public, usually AFTER Alpha and Beta testing.... But they want a bigger subset of non-test users to give a shake down before pushing it to 100,000's of boxes...


Earl, If we where able to be a part of this would they be able to target an single box in your house, or would all your R15's get it? And if there are major issues do you think they'd be able to rollback your version, or do you have to wait for them to release the next version? Just curious.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Earl, If we where able to be a part of this would they be able to target an single box in your house, or would all your R15's get it? And if there are major issues do you think they'd be able to rollback your version, or do you have to wait for them to release the next version? Just curious.


Most likely, you would have to "force" the download with the 02468 code.. During a stated window of time.

It wouldn't be a sign-up and we push it, type thing.

I doubt you would be able to roll back to a previous version though... That would be one of the risks.

But you would then be able to choose which unit you wanted to try it out on.


----------



## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Most likely, you would have to "force" the download with the 02468 code.. During a stated window of time.
> 
> It wouldn't be a sign-up and we push it, type thing.
> 
> ...


As long as I could choose the unit I really don't have an issues then.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> If he told you he'd have to kill you
> 
> OR
> 
> ...


No actually I used to own a game development company and we used NDA's quite extensively and also where under NDA's quite often for many pieces of software and hardware. They are VERY strict about not talking to anyone ever about anything you saw or used. Even after product release. Nothing cloak and dagger about it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> No actually I used to own a game development company .... Nothing cloak and dagger about it.


Even an extra chip soldered on the board, and having to score 100,000 points to get the secret message...


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just so we are clear again...
> 
> This discussion for this thread, is related to running "Release Candidate" software. Not betas... similar, but not the same.
> 
> True Betas would be under tighter control and would require some form of "NDA". Release Candidates are those versions of software that the company feels is "ready" to go out to the public, usually AFTER Alpha and Beta testing.... But they want a bigger subset of non-test users to give a shake down before pushing it to 100,000's of boxes...


Yes it is usually post beta but the RC cycle for companies like MS are usually quite long and are more a form of an advanced beta.I think one of the major issues many of us have had with the R15 so far is the seeming lack of testing ability for the current beta team. Far too many major issues seem to have escaped. I am hoping this isn't just something that would turn into, Hey heres the software a couple weeks before everyone else - OH btw you can't tell us anything about it - IF our beta people find issues you may get another new version.

I hope if this ever comes to see the light of day they at least give us some sort of a more closed conduit to submit problems to them and also see notes on whats being addressed so that we know more of whats going on with this product. Outside of your help which I for one very much appreciate Earl we are sort of left in the dark here, normally you could call a company and speak to tech support to find out whats going on. In this case though there is a MAJOR disconnect between the people in the know and the tech support people at DirecTV.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Even an extra chip soldered on the board, and having to score 100,000 points to get the secret message...


 It was actually quite fun, we got to see and use things that where fairly far down the pipe. Usually test hardware we had was 6-18 months down the pipeline before consumers knew it was even coming. Wow getting all giddy over new hardware/software, showing my true inner geek now. :lol:


----------

