# Breaking News: EchoStar To Purchase Satellite from Cablevision



## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

EchoStar To Purchase Satellite from Cablevision, http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=dish&script=410&layout=-6&item_id=665115

"EchoStar has agreed to purchase Rainbow 1, a direct broadcast satellite (DBS) located at 61.5 degrees West Longitude, together with the rights to 11 DBS frequencies at that location. The satellite includes 13 frequencies, up to 12 of which can be operated in "spot beam" mode."


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## jerryez (Nov 15, 2002)

Is this Voom?


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

jerryez said:


> Is this Voom?


Yes. http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050120/205895_1.html


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## wkomorow (Apr 22, 2002)

Boy this raises interesting questions.

Will the FCC approve this purchase?

How long might that take?

Will Dish use this as their HD service?

Isn't there another satellite owned and leased by Voom.

If the deal goes through this will be a very exciting time for E* subscribers.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Yipee! I already have a 921 with a 61.5 dish.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Could this mean what a bunch of us would like it to mean?

I went to HDTV back when a 2nd dish was required... so I have my one dish for 119/110 and my 2nd dish for 61.5, that since Dish moved most of the HD off that, has kinda just been a roof decoration in recent months...

But if wish were horses and so forth... maybe my 61.5 will light up with new HD in the near future. That'd be a nice thing.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

The voom service will be dead. All dish is wants is the satellite, transponders, and uplink facility. They could even move the satellite to a place like 110 as a quicker setup for E Ten


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Could months of forum speculation be coming to a close?


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

I'm guessing that the "Voom originals" are going to die.

Well, maybe Dish folks will see BingoTV in HD.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Capmeister said:


> I'm guessing that the "Voom originals" are going to die.
> 
> Well, maybe Dish folks will see BingoTV in HD.


Maybe not dead....the details of the agreement, are not fully public yet. Does the agreement contain the rights to these Originals?

Bingo TV?  More like ShopNBC HD or something else compelling like that.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

HEH. Funny.

My hope is that Dish isn't just getting rid of some competition, but will ramp up their HD, causing D* to do the same. Competition is good for the consumer.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

BFG said:


> The voom service will be dead. All dish is wants is the satellite, transponders, and uplink facility. They could even move the satellite to a place like 110 as a quicker setup for E Ten


It would be great if the Voom satellite could be moved to 110 W but I don't know where the spotbeams would end up with moving 48.5 degrees to the west. Spotbeam usage would be the only advantage in moving it to 110 W so I doubt Dish will do that. The TPs on the Voom satellite are switchable between spotbeam and CONUS so Dish could use it for HD locals in a few cities.

The recent HD channel testing at 148 may be a sign of HD network east and west feeds coming to Dish soon on the wings. Capacity at 148 W has not been a problem for Dish and now with the Voom satellite, it no longer is at 61.5 W.


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## hongcho (Mar 25, 2004)

> Does the agreement contain the rights to these Originals?

No, just the satellite, the frequency rights and the uplink facility. The contents are still with Cablevision.

Hong.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't know how everything was technically arranged... but the Voom lineup included a bunch of SD channels as well as their home-grown HD channels.

Assuming obviously that the Cablevision home-grown stuff wouldn't be part of the deal... and the SD content already exists elsewhere on Dish... it would seem like a whole lot of free bandwidth will suddenly materialize with the new satellite.

The Voom customers (20,000+ last time I looked) are soon to be up the creek unless Dish is able to sell them on comparable content to keep their business. Might be a lost cause, but with Voom gone there is only Dish, DirectTV, and cable for them to choose from anyway... and all have about the same level of HD right now.

This would be a great time to add the existing HD channels that Dish hasn't had the bandwidth to add previously... then do whatever else makes sense with the added bandwidth. HD Locals would be kinda cool to some extent, but since I get them OTA I'm going to be selfish and say I'd much rather see other HD channels go up first.

First time in a while I've seen a news release worth crossing my fingers about... so forgive me if I go do just that!


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

HDMe said:


> with Voom gone there is only Dish, DirectTV, and cable for them to choose from anyway... and all have about the same level of HD right now.


Wrong wrong wrong.



HDMe said:


> it would seem like a whole lot of free bandwidth will suddenly materialize with the new satellite.


Unfortunately, it's on the wrong side of the country.


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## jerryez (Nov 15, 2002)

Isn't the authorized frequency rights good only for the 61.5 location. Also, Voom broadcasts in MPEG-4, which allows them more channels than Dish will be able to use on 11 transponders.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

The transponders are only good at 61.5 But the satellite can be moved and since dish already has a satellite at 61.5 that can transmit those transponders, it's not a problem. And voom never switched to mpeg4


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

VOOM does not broadcast in MPEG-4, they just had announce that they planned on MPEG-4 eventually upgrading their receivers.

The 11 TPs on 61.5 could be matched by Echostar's 148 TPs if they wanted to do national programming on 61.5. But, it would be a waste of the satellite to do national, spot beam HD LIL would be a better fit.


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## bcope9 (Jun 7, 2004)

Voom is in MPEG-2, not 4. The first sat broadcast in 4 was at CES by D*.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

I guess I may stick around a little bit, and see what they do with this new found bandwidth. I'm hoping it ain't more locals for yokels, and shopping channels. But, we'll see.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

Michael P said:


> Yipee! I already have a 921 with a 61.5 dish.


Hey. Me too! When I dumped Voom last summer, I just left the dish in place along with the coax. Would be nice to see something good come out of all of this from Dish.


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## Neutron (Oct 2, 2003)

DISH isn't keeping the Voom service. All they want is the satellite and it's 13 transponders.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Rainbow I will not leave 61.5. EchoStar 3 is currently at capacity or close to it. Power Supply problems prevent it from operating more than 21 transponders at a time.


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## Jeff43 (Dec 4, 2002)

Keep checking for VOOM HD programming to show up on your Dish Network 61.5 dish soon.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

So are the Voom subscribers out there saying:

"You killed Voom, you *******s!!!"


My apologies to you Voom subscribers but I had to get that old South Park line in.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

rocatman said:


> So are the Voom subscribers out there saying:
> 
> "You killed Voom, you *******s!!!"
> 
> My apologies to you Voom subscribers but I had to get that old South Park line in.


yup, ahahaha


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Jeff43 said:


> Keep checking for VOOM HD programming to show up on your Dish Network 61.5 dish soon.


I don't think so. DISH wanted the satellite and transponder licensees for other purposes (likely local HD channels).

The VOOM service has _some_ value, but, depending on what Cablevision is asking for it, may not be that valuable to ANY vendor and _may_ go dark.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

garypen said:


> Wrong wrong wrong.


 So what was "wrong wrong wrong" about what I said in regards to Dish, DirectTv and Cable all having about the same level of HD?

Comparing the lineups, I see one channel here or there unique to each of them, but none of them having more than a half dozen HD channels.

Now, if you're talking about OTA locals in HD... I get all my locals OTA, so I haven't been considering that as a basis for comparison since that I get for free with my antenna.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

I guess the lease of capacity on AMC-6 will just go away?

Also, in question will be the new satellites recently purchased by VOOM for about $750 million.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

They have to pay like 100 mill to cancel the order I think, at least that's what was relayed by others...


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

garypen said:


> Unfortunately, it's on the wrong side of the country.


hmmm,
a bunch of new spot beams on the east coast
all of 148 & 157 on the west coast.

They might just ge quite a few local HD channels up now.


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## tonyp56 (Apr 26, 2004)

Speculation, speculation, specu......! To begin, the FCC still has to approve this, (what six months to a year?) Then Echostar has to get around to adding more channels, you know, they would hate to not say their trademark "no compelling content!" Then six months down the road they would come out with some excuse why they can't add the channels that they promised the six months before, and on and on we will wait. Don't expect thirty HD channels on your Dish receiver tomorrow.  

I'll believe it when I see it!


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

HDMe said:


> So what was "wrong wrong wrong" about what I said in regards to Dish, DirectTv and Cable all having about the same level of HD?
> 
> Comparing the lineups, I see one channel here or there unique to each of them, but none of them having more than a half dozen HD channels.


Dish only has CBS-HD. 
DirecTV has CBS, ABC, NBC, and FOX. That's is a BIG difference. 
My local Comcast Cable has all of my LOCAL networks in HD (as opposed to distant nets), _plus_ my regional sports nets in HD, plus all digital sub-channels of PBS. That is a VERY BIG difference.

Dish HD Pack is almost the same as DirecTV HD Pack, HDNets, ESPN, and Disc-HD, with the difference being TNT-HD vs. Universal HD, respectively. Both services have HBO-HD and SHO-HD. You are correct here. But...

Comcast HD Pack is INHD1&2, ESPN, and Disc-HD, similar to dbs, with the BIG difference being NFL-HD. They also have Starz and Max-HD in addition to HBO and SHO, another BIG difference.

That is why you were wrong about Dish, DirecTV, and Cable having the same level of HD.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Anyone know if the current DISH and Voom receivers can receive each others signals IF authorized? Or are we looking for dish to kill the VOOm receivers and start broadcasting a bunch of new (hopefully all HD) channels to replace VOOM. This would require them to make some sort of offer to the voom users to replace there systems, which considering the low number of voom users is probably quite doable.


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## DDRio (Mar 25, 2002)

They(VOOM & Cablevision) gave Lockheed Martin a $740 million contract to build five satellites.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041129/sfm059_1.html


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I'd say that they are not identical, but they are all roughly at the same level right now.

I've kept a 61.5 dish installed, just incase this did happen. Now, the trouble is that I'm convinced that Charlie no longer likes adding new channels. He sees them as costing him more, and making him raise rates (which I believe that he actually hates doing, because low cost is Dish's big selling feature).

So while we all have visions of 20+ HD channel sugar plums dancing in our heads, I don't think Charlie has the same idea.


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## zer0cool (Nov 24, 2004)

tnsprin said:


> Anyone know if the current DISH and Voom receivers can receive each others signals IF authorized? Or are we looking for dish to kill the VOOm receivers and start broadcasting a bunch of new (hopefully all HD) channels to replace VOOM. This would require them to make some sort of offer to the voom users to replace there systems, which considering the low number of voom users is probably quite doable.


Well, replacing Voom receivers would be a good way for Dish to dump the surplus of red-headed stepchild 921's they've got to make room for their shiny new 942!


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

Exactly folks. Dish is not continuing the voom HD channels. The voom receivers will be dead.


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

Is this why E* has these ridiculously high price increases so they can buy Voom????????????


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

garypen said:


> Dish only has CBS-HD.
> DirecTV has CBS, ABC, NBC, and FOX. That's is a BIG difference.


 I admittedly wasn't counting those for a couple of reasons... I get all my locals in HD OTA, so I don't need the HD locals via Satellite. Right now, even though DirectTV does offer a few more networks, most people don't qualify. I, for instance, don't qualify for CBS-HD from Dish... so those channels are a relative wash for me. Of course for the few folks that can qualify for DirectTV's networks, then I'm sure they would count them as a plus... but according to the level of complaint in the DirectTV forum I gather there aren't many people getting those channels.



garypen said:


> My local Comcast Cable has all of my LOCAL networks in HD (as opposed to distant nets), _plus_ my regional sports nets in HD, plus all digital sub-channels of PBS. That is a VERY BIG difference.


 As it happens, my local cable company does not have all the local networks in HD. I get WB, for instance OTA in HD that I wouldn't get with my local cable company.



garypen said:


> Dish HD Pack is almost the same as DirecTV HD Pack, HDNets, ESPN, and Disc-HD, with the difference being TNT-HD vs. Universal HD, respectively. Both services have HBO-HD and SHO-HD. You are correct here. But...
> 
> Comcast HD Pack is INHD1&2, ESPN, and Disc-HD, similar to dbs, with the BIG difference being NFL-HD. They also have Starz and Max-HD in addition to HBO and SHO, another BIG difference.


 I gather INHD1&2 are cable-only channels, so neither Dish or DirectTV can have those channels... so those qualified in my mind as onf of the one or two differences between the companies. As you mentioned, Dish has TNTHD vs DirectTV having Universal HD for the other difference.

I haven't checked lately to see if my local cable offers CinemaxHD, StarzHD, MovieChannel HD... so they might have those over Dish or DirectTV and you'd be fair to count them and I didn't think of those.



garypen said:


> That is why you were wrong about Dish, DirecTV, and Cable having the same level of HD.


 I think we really are saying about the same thing... each company right now has a few channels unique to that company, and you could sacrifice one channel or the other depending on what company you go with unless you care nothing for that particular channel.

I haven't been counting locals or networks in HD, since like I said I get all mine OTA and I can't get that from any company right now... and since I do get them OTA for free, I'd prefer to see other channels added first.

I do understand that many folks can't get them locally OTA, so I know it is a decision point for many... only thing is, DirectTV doesn't offer to more than a handful of locations as it stands, so unless you live in one of (12 I think) those areas, it doesn't count as a difference yet.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

We're got news sources from Yahoo:
Reuters: Cablevision to sell satellite business-source
Businesswire: EchoStar To Purchase Satellite from Cablevision
Businesswire: Cablevision to Sell Rainbow Direct Broadcast Satellite and Certain Related Assets to EchoStar for $200 Million
Reuters: EchoStar to buy satellite from Cablevision Systems
CBS Marketwatch: Cablevision sells satellite to EchoStar
AP: Cablevision Sells Satellite Business
The Street: Memo Spells Doom for Voom
(Some links may be reposts of previously posted links)


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

garypen said:


> My local Comcast Cable has all of my LOCAL networks in HD (as opposed to distant nets), _plus_ my regional sports nets in HD, plus all digital sub-channels of PBS. That is a VERY BIG difference.


Gary, I'm going to agree with everything you say here.... except, your local Comcast does NOT have your local FOX, KTVU. That, to me, is the biggest difference.

_Edited to fix broken vbCode only.-*Holtz*_


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

The FCC has little basis for any say over the transfer of ownership of the satellite. The big issue will be the 11 transponder frequencies that VOOM owns (the other 2 TPs of the 13 they were "borrowing" from the FCC obviously cannot transfer with the sale).

Of course the FCC would also have trouble proving that the 11 TPs are viable to provide service for a third DBS company when a well financed company just failed. So, I suspect that the FCC will give in and allow the transfer of the TPs to go to Echostar. After all the other choice is to put them up for auction again and say E/D cannot buy them and then someone would have to buy them and build another satellite and start all over again 5 years down the road...


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Mike123abc said:


> The FCC has little basis for any say over the transfer of ownership of the satellite. The big issue will be the 11 transponder frequencies that VOOM owns (the other 2 TPs of the 13 they were "borrowing" from the FCC obviously cannot transfer with the sale).
> 
> Of course the FCC would also have trouble proving that the 11 TPs are viable to provide service for a third DBS company when a well financed company just failed. So, I suspect that the FCC will give in and allow the transfer of the TPs to go to Echostar. After all the other choice is to put them up for auction again and say E/D cannot buy them and then someone would have to buy them and build another satellite and start all over again 5 years down the road...


The FCC recently ruled that the two other TP frequencies could not be licensed to Dish, DirecTV or Voom so perhaps the FCC won't let Dish buy the TP licenses but I would think the deal is based on Dish getting the TP licenses.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Bobby94928 said:


> Gary, I'm going to agree with everything you say here.... except, your local Comcast does NOT have your local FOX, KTVU. That, to me, is the biggest difference.
> 
> _Edited to fix broken vbCode only.-*Holtz*_


Oops. You're right. But, since FOX basically only airs crap, other than The Simpsons, _I_ wouldn't miss FOX-HD that much. But, that might be a HUGE deal for many local HD viewers.

They do air the standard KTVU broadcasts. So, we wouldn't miss programming. (The spouse likes crap.) But, I wonder why no KTVU-DT?


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

As to the FCC approval, I don't see a big problem. DirecTV absorbed USSB and Promestar with no issues. Dish killed NewsCorps independent attempt at DBS and absobed that and is now buying VOOM out from the jaws sure bankruptcy.

11 transponders 50k subscribers at best and possibly a Temporary authority on two others. Small potatoes in the scheme of things.

See ya
Tony


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## jeslevine (Jul 21, 2002)

Michael P said:


> Yipee! I already have a 921 with a 61.5 dish.


and you haven't seen hd until you have seen voom. It is light years ahead of anyone in the business, and the receiver with voom has live outputs at all times, unlike dish

voom was just so close with mpeg4


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## jeslevine (Jul 21, 2002)

Mike123abc said:


> VOOM does not broadcast in MPEG-4, they just had announce that they planned on MPEG-4 eventually upgrading their receivers.
> 
> The 11 TPs on 61.5 could be matched by Echostar's 148 TPs if they wanted to do national programming on 61.5. But, it would be a waste of the satellite to do national, spot beam HD LIL would be a better fit.


that is what the slot on their receivers is for

Voom content and picture quality is the best HD today


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

garypen said:


> Unfortunately, it's on the wrong side of the country.


Meanwhile E* has ALL of 148 and 157 on the other side of the country. It's not a bad satellite to own. And the 22 spots fit perfectly with SHVERA and the plan to have HD locals on the wings.


Mike123abc said:


> The FCC has little basis for any say over the transfer of ownership of the satellite. The big issue will be the 11 transponder frequencies that VOOM owns.


E* being the #2 provider and the ability to easily add HD locals (service improvement) will go a long way toward approval. This isn't like D*+E* where a monopoly was being built.

BTW: Note that the sale does not appear to include Voom/Cablevision's spectrum at 166/175. I wonder if V* is defaulting on those or holding them for later sale. (If they were included, E* would own FOUR full western slots with no competition west of 119.)

JL


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## leegart (Dec 18, 2004)

Capmeister said:


> I'm guessing that the "Voom originals" are going to die.
> 
> Well, maybe Dish folks will see BingoTV in HD.


Probably more horserace betting channels in HD.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

This could simply be the solution to the one dish locals problem. With all the spot beams available at 61.5 they could move a bunch of smaller local cities off to 61.5 now and resolve he problem.


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## ddobson (Nov 25, 2003)

Notice that Echostar did NOT buy the customers. The customers are NOT included in the deal....

"Also, as part of the transaction, EchoStar will acquire ground facilities and related assets in Black Hawk, S.D. Sources said the deal doesn't include VOOM subscribers, which as of last count number 26,000. "


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

I must admit, I saw the handwriting on the wall (who didn't?), and that's why I dropped VOOM some months back.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Moving smaller local markets off to the wings may not solve the problem as the congestion may involve larger markets only.


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## mraspen (Jan 1, 2004)

Echostar has purchased one of VOOMs satellites and an uplink facility. I am sure you will see press releases about it today.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/voomlessons011905.html :hurah:


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## jeslevine (Jul 21, 2002)

Capmeister said:


> I must admit, I saw the handwriting on the wall (who didn't?), and that's why I dropped VOOM some months back.


when voom offerred free hardware and installation, I had nothing to lose. I currently have both dish and voom.

No one today can offer you the HD quality and quantity of Voom. They are light years ahead of everyone else

This could really help dish to become the HD leader if they approve the transaction


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

Capmeister said:


> I must admit, I saw the handwriting on the wall (who didn't?), and that's why I dropped VOOM some months back.


I'm actually thinking about doing the opposite: sign up for VOOM now to get the free OTA antenna installed that I was about to pay for anyhow -- and then, if I get lucky, I'll get out of the 6-month commitment early. Worst case: I pay around $350 for 6 months plus antenna install. Best case: They go under after a month or two and I end up paying $65-$125 for 1-2 months plus antenna! 

- John...


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Ditto with what jg said. I just need to be assured they will install an antenna that will work here, 80 miles away from my locals.  I wonder how VOOM would look through my X1.


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## JohnMI (Apr 2, 2002)

See the discussion that I started in the VOOM forum about such things -- it appears that the installers do have some room to adjust as far as the antenna goes. 80 miles is pushing it though, of course.  But, I'm about 50 miles away -- an think an 8-bay may work nicely for me. That's what I'm planning to ask for if I do this...

- John...


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## sampatterson (Aug 27, 2002)

Dish doesn't care about HD. They will fill up the slots and the spotbeams on that bird with LIL..


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## awp (Jun 1, 2004)

I believe Dish had to give up some transponders a while back on 61.5. this will get them back.

As for the satellite, dish may be looking to solve the single dish locals issue with the spots on this bird. The single dish rule applies only to all elegible locals in a market. Dish cannot split popular locals like ABC from a small local elegible channel on different dishes. They can however put ALL the locals on 61.5 for a specific market and then require the separate dish500 for the standard program solution.

They got into trouble in big markets where they put the poplar locals on 110 and put the small minority stations on 61.5. Since most customers didn't bother to have the 61.5 dish mounted, they didn't get those small stations.

Personally, I don't agree with the rule... but thats the way it is.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Voom currently uses 13 DBS frequencies at 61.5 W, two of which are temporary and I believe Dish once had temporary authority to use these two frequencies. The FCC recently decided that these two frequencies could not be licensed to Voom/Dish or DirecTV and Voom would have to give them up in a few months. Dish has license and/or use through Sky Angel of the other 19 DBS frequencies at 61.5 W. Failures on the Echostar-3 satellite at 61.5 W has limited the number of frequencies Dish can use to 17. If the FCC approves the transfer of the Voom licenses to Dish, I would expect Dish to also request a swap of frequencies so they have use of the two temporary frequencies that the Rainbow-1 satellite can use especially for spotbeams and swap two frequencies that Echostar-3 was designed to provide but can not. The FCC approved a similar swap of frequencies at 157 W because failures on Echostar-5 prevented it from transmitting in the frequencies licensed to Dish. The bottom line is that Dish could effectively pick up 13 DBS frequencies at 61.5 W with FCC approval of the transfer of the Voom licenses for a total of 30, two of which are used by Sky Angel.


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

BFG said:


> The voom service will be dead. All dish is wants is the satellite, transponders, and uplink facility. They could even move the satellite to a place like 110 as a quicker setup for E Ten


 Move the satellite? I thought they conserved the fuel in the satellites for minute adustments in position. Wouldn't a complete move to another orbital position significantly shorten the life expectancy of the satellite?

Ken


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

kstevens said:


> Move the satellite? I thought they conserved the fuel in the satellites for minute adustments in position. Wouldn't a complete move to another orbital position significantly shorten the life expectancy of the satellite?
> 
> Ken


Moving the satellite to 110 W would only make sense if Dish could use the spotbeams on Rainbow-1 and I would think the spotbeam locations would get messed up when you move a satellite to a location 48.5 degrees west of where it was designed for. In regards to fuel usage from moving the satellite, it does not take much to make such a move. Besides Rainbow-1 has a design life of 18 years based on fuel usage for station keeping which is a few years longer than normal. Usually other components on the satellite fail that reduce and/or end the useful life of a satellite.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

rocatman said:


> Voom currently uses 13 DBS frequencies at 61.5 W, two of which are temporary and I believe Dish once had temporary authority to use these two frequencies. The FCC recently decided that these two frequencies could not be licensed to Voom/Dish or DirecTV and Voom would have to give them up in a few months. Dish has license and/or use through Sky Angel of the other 19 DBS frequencies at 61.5 W. Failures on the Echostar-3 satellite at 61.5 W has limited the number of frequencies Dish can use to 17. If the FCC approves the transfer of the Voom licenses to Dish, I would expect Dish to also request a swap of frequencies so they have use of the two temporary frequencies that the Rainbow-1 satellite can use especially for spotbeams and swap two frequencies that Echostar-3 was designed to provide but can not. The FCC approved a similar swap of frequencies at 157 W because failures on Echostar-5 prevented it from transmitting in the frequencies licensed to Dish. The bottom line is that Dish could effectively pick up 13 DBS frequencies at 61.5 W with FCC approval of the transfer of the Voom licenses for a total of 30, two of which are used by Sky Angel.


EchoStar 3 was designed to provide all 32 frequencies at 61.5. EchoStar had permission at one time to use all 32 frequencies at 61.5 to test their satellite. They used several for many years. Technical problems with the EchoStar 3 power supply limited the usage to 21 transponders. The 2 you mention as no longer functional would be 28 and 4, but no indication has been announced that a problem with 4 exists. As to 28, it could not be an EchoStar swap as the frequency is owned by Dominion Sky Angel.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

The Street: Cablevision Unloads Voom


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

garypen said:


> Oops. You're right. But, since FOX basically only airs crap, other than The Simpsons, _I_ wouldn't miss FOX-HD that much. But, that might be a HUGE deal for many local HD viewers.
> 
> They do air the standard KTVU broadcasts. So, we wouldn't miss programming. (The spouse likes crap.) But, I wonder why no KTVU-DT?


 Nothing on FOX???

I guess you wont be watching the superbowl. And sorry but comcast HD sucks! they're missing HDNet, HDNet Movies, TNT-HD, and Universal HD


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

garypen said:


> Oops. You're right. But, since FOX basically only airs crap, other than The Simpsons, _I_ wouldn't miss FOX-HD that much. But, that might be a HUGE deal for many local HD viewers.
> 
> They do air the standard KTVU broadcasts. So, we wouldn't miss programming. (The spouse likes crap.) But, I wonder why no KTVU-DT?


I'll answer this in two words... Super Bowl. You might also add "24." I seem to remember that your wife is a fan of Clay Aiken, and that means she probably watchs American Idol. The new program "House" is too shabby either.

There is no KTVU-DT on Comcast because KTVU is owned by Cox and they want dinero from Comcast to pass along the DT feed. KGO, KNTV, and KPIX don't ask for money, so there they are.


----------



## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Is it correct that a spot beam satellite contains a separate dish for each spot (ignoring the Spaceway birds).

Can these individual dishes be repositioned?

I don't thing moving is a big deal in terms of fuel. They kinda just give it a nudge and let it drift to the new position (that's way it generally takes a few weeks to get a satellite on station).


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## wcswett (Jan 7, 2003)

tnsprin said:


> Anyone know if the current DISH and Voom receivers can receive each others signals IF authorized? Or are we looking for dish to kill the VOOm receivers and start broadcasting a bunch of new (hopefully all HD) channels to replace VOOM. This would require them to make some sort of offer to the voom users to replace there systems, which considering the low number of voom users is probably quite doable.


I have a similar question. I know that Motorola was building the model 580 HD PVR for Voom, but with this buyout you'll presumably need a DISH receiver and not a Voom receiver. Is the Motorola 580 also the much anticipated HD PVR upgrade for the Canadian Star Choice service, or is that a similar but different receiver coming out?

--- WCS


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

garypen said:


> I guess I may stick around a little bit, and see what they do with this new found bandwidth. I'm hoping it ain't more locals for yokels, and shopping channels. But, we'll see.


Hey, city slicker! This yokel wants locals!  
OTOH, maybe they can compress the hell out of the shopping channels for all I care, althoug it's obvious that they're a cash cow for E*. :zzz:


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

JohnH said:


> EchoStar 3 was designed to provide all 32 frequencies at 61.5. EchoStar had permission at one time to use all 32 frequencies at 61.5 to test their satellite. They used several for many years. Technical problems with the EchoStar 3 power supply limited the usage to 21 transponders. The 2 you mention as no longer functional would be 28 and 4, but no indication has been announced that a problem with 4 exists. As to 28, it could not be an EchoStar swap as the frequency is owned by Dominion Sky Angel.


I guess I am confused then if Echostar-3 has enough power for 21 TPs, then why does Dish have nothing on TP 4 if nothing is wrong with it? In regards to TP 28, by agreement with Sky Angel, Dish has/had use of it I believe but since Sky Angel has the license, they would actually have to request the frequency swap from the FCC. I don't think this swap would be a problem if the FCC does not have a problem with the transfer of licenses between Voom and dish.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

We don't need the swap. They are getting 11 new frequencies. The question would be, how frequency agile is Rainbow I? Can it operate these Right Hand Polarized channels(28 and 4).

BTW: 4 may be being held in reserve in case of another failure.

Dominion might bid on 23 and 24, but they are not likely to request any other changes which might possibly jeopardize their contract with EchoStar.


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## ehren (Aug 3, 2003)

Bobby94928 said:


> There is no KTVU-DT on Comcast because KTVU is owned by Cox and they want dinero from Comcast to pass along the DT feed. KGO, KNTV, and KPIX don't ask for money, so there they are.


UHHHH isn't KTVU-2 owned by Sinclair? Reason I think I know this is because the Madison FOX 47 DT station is owned by them as well and Charter cable is having disputes with Sinclair as well.


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## DISHblog.net (Jan 8, 2005)

The Dolan family may yet buy the remaining Voom assets to try to keep the company going. They voted against selling Voom at the board meeting. Plus the satellite deal must meet government approval before Dish can do anything. And don't forget what happened to Dish's plan to buy DirecTV.

http://www.dishblog.net/2005/01/echostar_agrees.html


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

No it is dead. Cablevision is pulling the plug on its cash life support, and Dolan doesn't have THAT much personal wealth to flush down the drain trying to keep it alive. They may be just trying to sell the subscriber list to someone. Look for Voom to go dark within 6 months to a year if THAT long. Plus, any chance of new subscribers went away as no one wants to spend money or time hooking something up that will most likely go dark UNLESS there was some sweetheart deal for V* subscribers as an incentive to switch to E*. Since E* is already giving away free (or just about free) hardware to sign new subscribers up, I can't see them giving anything more than that. Plus 26000 subscribers is not THAT valuable to Charlie. Many may already be subscribers to E* or D*, and since they are all HD enthusiasts, E* doesn't have ANYTHING to offer them to keep them on the farm with cable and D* being much more "compelling" right now.

Yes, from now on I will be heavily using the word "compelling" when describing E*'s competitive deficiencies. I'm hoping to shame E* into adding more "compelling" content. More likely it just makes me feel better ridiculing their current HD competitive offerings.


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

ehren said:


> UHHHH isn't KTVU-2 owned by Sinclair? Reason I think I know this is because the Madison FOX 47 DT station is owned by them as well and Charter cable is having disputes with Sinclair as well.


UHHHHH, no, KTVU is not owned by Sinclair. It is owned by Cox. We here in the Bay Area know who owns our TV stations.

http://www.coxenterprises.com/corp/...Vermenu=operatingcompanies&Hormenu=television


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

Slightly off topic here but you will not being seeing Clay Aiken on AI ever again I suspect. He dug as deep as he could to come up with enough cash to buy out his contract with AI. No other AI or runner up has ever done that. Thats why he had his own Xmas special and did not appear on the AI Xmas special as well. None the less AI looks great in HD if you like this type of stuff.



Bobby94928 said:


> I seem to remember that your wife is a fan of Clay Aiken, and that means she probably watchs American Idol.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

As a Dish subscriber, there are potential upsides here... obviously... potential for more HD channels being the primary hope of course!

However... I wonder... with Voom being marketed as THE HD source for us HD folks... and not able to get 30,000 subscribers to sign up, and losing money hand over both fists to the point where they had to sell...

I wonder if this couldn't be used by Dish (or DirectTV for that matter) to support current claims that there isn't enough demand for HD... At least some of the Voom subscribers were already Dish or DirectTV subscribers for other channels, so not all of them will be new. Many of them may not stay when they lose all the other HD channels they had that were unique to Voom.

I'm hoping we get some benefit, and obviously that the FCC approves the deal... but part of me is also being skeptical.


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## Allen Noland (Apr 23, 2002)

2 things.

What about rainbow 2?

FCC wouldn't let Dish and Direct merge because the combined company wouldn't have any other satellite competition. I'm thinking this won't be as hard to sell to the FCC. But who knows.


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## wcswett (Jan 7, 2003)

Allen Noland said:


> FCC wouldn't let Dish and Direct merge because the combined company wouldn't have any other satellite competition. I'm thinking this won't be as hard to sell to the FCC. But who knows.


I agree with you, Allen. Voom is less than half of one DBS slot and one satellite, whereas DirecTV is a plethora of satellites and the equivalent of one and a half DBS slots and then some. The FCC/FTC should pass this through with no sweat, since Voom isn't viable for continued operations and isn't a competitor. The overall marketplace will be pretty much unchanged.

--- WCS


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> We don't need the swap. They are getting 11 new frequencies. The question would be, how frequency agile is Rainbow I? Can it operate these Right Hand Polarized channels(28 and 4).
> 
> BTW: 4 may be being held in reserve in case of another failure.
> 
> Dominion might bid on 23 and 24, but they are not likely to request any other changes which might possibly jeopardize their contract with EchoStar.


I suspect that at least one transponder can cover TP4 ... the one V* used to cover TP24. At least it is polarized properly.

The ITU filings only show the 11 licensed transponders (including spot use) plus 23 and 24. That doesn't mean the bird isn't capable of more ... it all depends on how forward thinking V* was when they ordered their satellite.

What E* is getting:

```
Rainbow1 Spot Beams
R=Recieve Beam  E=Emit Beam  Satellite Receive and Emit
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R01                         Bangor          69.25W 44.90N
TP  1  3  7 15 17            E01  Bangor          69.25W 44.90N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R03                         Bethpage        74.87W 41.06N
TP  5  9 11 13 21            E02  Boston          72.67W 42.76N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E03  Bethpage        74.87W 41.06N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R05                         Raleigh         78.02W 35.43N
TP  5  9 11 13 21            E04  Washington      77.56W 38.60N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E05  Raleigh         78.02W 35.43N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R06                         Atlanta         83.99W 33.67N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E06  Atlanta         83.99W 33.67N
TP  5  9 11 13               E08  Charleston      80.45W 32.78N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R09                         Miami           81.30W 26.96N
TP  1  3  7  9 15 17 19 23   E09  Miami           81.30W 26.96N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R11                         Chicago         88.22W 41.51N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E10  Detroit         83.55W 42.48N
TP  5  9 11 13 21            E11  Chicago         88.22W 41.51N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R12                         New Orleans     89.44W 30.84N
TP  5  9 11 13 21            E07  Birmingham      87.43W 33.29N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E12  New Orleans     89.44W 30.84N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R13                         Minneapolis     94.57W 46.77N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E13  Minneapolis     94.57W 46.77N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R14                         St Louis        92.26W 38.52N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E14  St Louis        92.26W 38.52N
TP  5 11 13 21               E15  Kansas City     96.49W 38.10N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R17                         Houston         96.33W 29.27N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E16  Dallas          98.29W 32.37N
TP  5  9 11 13 21            E17  Houston         96.33W 29.27N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R18                         Denver         105.77W 40.41N
TP  1  3  7  9 15 17 19 23   E18  Denver         105.77W 40.41N
TP  5 11 13 21               E19  Albuquerque    107.20W 36.34N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R20                         Seattle        119.63W 46.07N
TP  5 11 13 17 21            E20  Seattle        119.63W 46.07N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R21                         San Fransisco  120.89W 37.93N
TP  1  3  7 15 17 19 23      E21  San Fransisco  120.89W 37.93N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: R22                         Los Angeles    115.34W 33.50N
TP  5  9 11 13 21            E22  Los Angeles    115.34W 33.50N
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: RU1                    EU1  CONUS          103.08W 34.87N
TP  1  3  5  7  9 11 13 15 17 19 21 23
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Beam: RU2                    EU2  CONUS          103.08W 34.87N
TP 24
-----------------------------------------------------------------
```
SA could go for TP23 and TP24 but they don't seem to be interested in expanding their service (other than the suggested addition of a secular channel "a la carte" package that would be E* channels sold by SA). When this settles, the FCC may be more willing to give the orphan channels to E*. But as you noted, buying V* gives E* 11 transponders on day one - waiting for the moritorium to lift to get the final two isn't a big deal. E* is wasting space at 148 today, they can afford to not use 23-24 for a couple more years.

JL


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

DISHblog.net said:


> http://www.dishblog.net/2005/01/echostar_agrees.html


Another DISH site i see... - www.dishblog.net


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

> I previously wrote:
> The ITU filings only show the 11 licensed transponders (including spot use) plus 23 and 24. That doesn't mean the bird isn't capable of more ... it all depends on how forward thinking V* was when they ordered their satellite.


I note that EchoStar's Press Release describes the satellite as "The satellite includes 13 frequencies, up to 12 of which can be operated in "spot beam" mode."

No mention of 166 or 175. At one time E* wanted 175 for Asian coverage (assuming international approval).

JL


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

ehren said:


> UHHHH isn't KTVU-2 owned by Sinclair? Reason I think I know this is because the Madison FOX 47 DT station is owned by them as well and Charter cable is having disputes with Sinclair as well.


Cox owns KTVU & KICU ch 36.


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## Shellback X 23 (Sep 19, 2004)

Since my low interest locals and plus CBS-HD are on 61.5 I already have the dish. E* bring me more HD!!


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

Jeff43 said:


> Keep checking for VOOM HD programming to show up on your Dish Network 61.5 dish soon.


I wouldn't count on it anytime in the next 6 months (at the earliest).

The FCC has to approve the transfer of assets before anything will happen and there is no assurance the FCC will approve the sale. I seriously doubt the FCC will block it but I have been surprised by less.

If I am not mistaken the 61.5 slots are not full conus so Echostar aquiring those slots really won't impact much. By the time the FCC approves this sale, D* will have at least 1 of their Spaceway Birds up and running..


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

DISHblog.net said:


> The Dolan family may yet buy the remaining Voom assets to try to keep the company going. They voted against selling Voom at the board meeting. Plus the satellite deal must meet government approval before Dish can do anything. And don't forget what happened to Dish's plan to buy DirecTV.
> 
> http://www.dishblog.net/2005/01/echostar_agrees.html


Different scale so economy here. I doubt the FCC whill have an issue with the buy out.

Ken


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

ddobson said:


> Notice that Echostar did NOT buy the customers. The customers are NOT included in the deal....
> 
> "Also, as part of the transaction, EchoStar will acquire ground facilities and related assets in Black Hawk, S.D. Sources said the deal doesn't include VOOM subscribers, which as of last count number 26,000. "


They are not included, but the FCC may look unfavorably at the deal if Echostar doesn't at least offer a deal to those users to convert to dish. With different program of course.


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## bavaria72 (Jun 10, 2004)

Chris, allow me to voice a bit of concern for those folks who frequent the VOOM forum here at DBSTalk.com. I feel that you locking their thread regarding the buyout was a little harsh. Being a person who suffered thru D* killing their Terrestrial DSL, I would of appreciated a place to "vent". Please note that as of 11:00pm CST on 1/21/05, the last post on the VOOM forum was at 3:14 pm. Quite frankly the folks over at Satguys have been a little more understanding, IMHO. The VOOM forum was "theirs", just like I feel I belong to the "Dish" forums, maybe a little slack is in order here. - Art


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

bavaria72 said:


> Chris, allow me to voice a bit of concern for those folks who frequent the VOOM forum here at DBSTalk.com. I feel that you locking their thread regarding the buyout was a little harsh. Being a person who suffered thru D* killing their Terrestrial DSL, I would of appreciated a place to "vent". Please note that as of 11:00pm CST on 1/21/05, the last post on the VOOM forum was at 3:14 pm. Quite frankly the folks over at Satguys have been a little more understanding, IMHO. The VOOM forum was "theirs", just like I feel I belong to the "Dish" forums, maybe a little slack is in order here. - Art


Hi Art,

It was not my intention to cut the conversation about the buyout short in the Voom forum. The originator of the thread had posted the same article in 3 different forums. I was just closing the duplicate threads.


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## bavaria72 (Jun 10, 2004)

OK, I stand corrected. Lets be mindful of the mourning period here (Sounds silly but there has been a lot of emotional investment by the Voom folks). We are only human after all...(I would of loved a place to of gone to regarding D* DSL). Thanks Chris - Art


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

fluffybear said:


> I wouldn't count on it anytime in the next 6 months (at the earliest).
> 
> The FCC has to approve the transfer of assets before anything will happen and there is no assurance the FCC will approve the sale. I seriously doubt the FCC will block it but I have been surprised by less.
> 
> If I am not mistaken the 61.5 slots are not full conus so Echostar aquiring those slots really won't impact much. By the time the FCC approves this sale, D* will have at least 1 of their Spaceway Birds up and running..


The 61.5 slot does not have to be full CONUS because Dish has extra capacity at 148 so Dish can mirror the channels they put on their new capacity at 61.5. I believe the FCC will make a decision on the sale of the frequency licenses before the first Spaceway satellite is launched and besides there is a lot of questions about whether the Ka band technology on the Spaceway satellites will really work for live television. I know a few satellite communication experts at NASA who have serious doubts.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

E* may be buying the sat, but I bet there will be a clause in the agreement that states that so long as Voom is a viable entity, E* has to lease the slot to Voom. Also, keep in mind that the could be a gamble on both sides. E* is probably gambling that V* will go under, and if so, they will basically get the entire 61.5. And, if V* actually makes it, then E* will make a profit on leasing the space to V*, and they could actually lease their other trans at the 61.5 to voom if they manage to move everything off the 61.5. Also, E* may be able to get access to some of V*'s HD programming. The deal is actually going to help V* because it is giving them a much needed cash infusion so that they can keep their service running. They show that they have more cash on hand, and lease the space from E*. It may end up becoming V*'s saving grace.

V*'s biggest problem is that they should have offered and HD only package for people who already have D*, E*, or cable, and that wanted to add to what they already have available. Trying to become a full blown sat company is tough right now considering that E* and D* are basically giving everything away, which is why V* started their new promo. We shall have to see.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> E* may be buying the sat, but I bet there will be a clause in the agreement that states that so long as Voom is a viable entity, E* has to lease the slot to Voom. Also, keep in mind that the could be a gamble on both sides. E* is probably gambling that V* will go under, and if so, they will basically get the entire 61.5. And, if V* actually makes it, then E* will make a profit on leasing the space to V*, and they could actually lease their other trans at the 61.5 to voom if they manage to move everything off the 61.5. Also, E* may be able to get access to some of V*'s HD programming. The deal is actually going to help V* because it is giving them a much needed cash infusion so that they can keep their service running. They show that they have more cash on hand, and lease the space from E*. It may end up becoming V*'s saving grace.


Where did this come from? The sale is for the satellite, frequencies and uplink. Any thought of EchoStar investing $200 million in a money pit such as VOOM is a bit far fetched. The more cash on hand is a misnomer, as the service has apparently consumed about $500 million. They voted to sell it, not keep it going. Apparently someone was interested in some of the assets, much to the good fortune of Cablevision, not VOOM. Lease the capacity to keep it going seems like giving the money they get from EchoStar right back to EchoStar and having no assets either.

Investing in some protection for the aging EchoStar 3 seems more prudent. Removing 61.5 from the DISH Network service does not seem to be of any advantage. They still are adding internationals there.


----------



## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Think about it. #1, the FCC has to approve the sale of the satellite ASSETS to E*. Just because E* is buying the assets does not mean that they will get them. The FCC may say no. And, since V* is still an ongoing concern, then E* will have to support V* buy basically leasing the sat to V* until such time as V* is no longer around. IF, and a big IF, V* should actually succeed, they would be better of with the entire 61.5 slot, minus Sky Angel, then E* would be. And, it is my understanding the E* is only adding new internationals to the 121. It would make more sense in the long run to replace all the 61.5s with 121 for international custs, especially with having to reshuffle all the locals and stuff. Mirroring the same channels on 3 sats cannot be very cost effective, or E* long term goal. Now, I will admit that I was wrong when I said that I felt that E* would move it's new HD to the 105 and move the current locals off of it, but this may still happen. E* is understandably being tight lipped about it's plans since the SuperDish HD fiasco back in dec 2003.

Yes, V* is probably going to be shut down. But, stranger things have happened.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

larrystotler said:


> E* may be buying the sat, but I bet there will be a clause in the agreement that states that so long as Voom is a viable entity, E* has to lease the slot to Voom.


Why such wild speculation? Voom isn't viable. They lost $3k PER CUSTOMER in one quarter. They would have been better off sending everyone who signed up a free HD set than offering service.

The only thing keeping V* alive today is waiting for regulatory approval.



larrystotler said:


> V*'s biggest problem is that they should have offered and HD only package for people who already have D*, E*, or cable, and that wanted to add to what they already have available.


The trouble is that they would need to find a price point that people would accept.

How much would people be willing to pay for JUST the 15 national HD channels (4 of them West feeds)? How much would people pay for Just the 21 "Original HD" channels? Would a Wal-Mart approach (less in the package for a low price) really work for a provider that either has to have a high up front cost for receivers and installs or an inflated monthly cost to cover the subsidy of installs?

Imagine the "Voom" package without SD content ... 21 channels of originated content plus four national channels. Add HBO or SHOWTIME or CINEMAX or STARZ or more HDs for $19.90 each pak. (If you are adding two you might as well take "Va Va Voom" for about the same price. Some discount!)

Voom was out to empty the pockets of their subscribers - a nessisary evil in a commercially run company in order to pay the bills. But they did a lousy job, and could not recoup the cost of doing business.

JL


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

larrystotler said:


> IF, and a big IF, V* should actually succeed,


Time to wake up and smell the roses. You are in the funeral parlor and Voom is in the casket. V* is keeping some satellite assets, but nothing that will allow them to continue service.

Wild speculation about a lease back to V* is the creation of your mind. Perhaps a professional can check that over for you? In this world, V* is on the way to gone. The only reason that they are not off the air tonight is that the FCC and other regulators need to approve of the sale. A rubber stamp issue.

JL


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

True, it is a wild speculation, but stranger things have happened. As for how much would people pay for just the HD content, look how many subs are already paying for V* as well as E*, D*, or Cable. If they offered all of the HD channels for $50/month, many people would jump on that. V*'s ONLY selling point was their HD conent. Having 3 HD receivers and only 1 HD TV in your house is a pretty useless idea. They should have targeted just the HD, and worried about adding SD content when they acheived a decent subscriber number.

As for professional help, I am in counseling with my ex. Hopefully, it will help. Especially considering that it's costing me $105 a visit......


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## Geeke19 (Oct 16, 2004)

wkomorow said:


> Boy this raises interesting questions.
> 
> Will the FCC approve this purchase?


FCC SUCKS THEY SUCk DONKEY!!!

DOWN WITH THE FCC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :box: :box:


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

rocatman said:


> The 61.5 slot does not have to be full CONUS because Dish has extra capacity at 148 so Dish can mirror the channels they put on their new capacity at 61.5. I believe the FCC will make a decision on the sale of the frequency licenses before the first Spaceway satellite is launched and besides there is a lot of questions about whether the Ka band technology on the Spaceway satellites will really work for live television. I know a few satellite communication experts at NASA who have serious doubts.


I am going to have to disagree with you on this one.

first, It don't see the FCC making a decision for at least 6 month. I don't see the FCC giving E* a hard time about the transfer of assets. DirecTV purchased PrimeStar back in the 90's without much difficulty (even though Charlie did try and block the sale with the FCC). That sale took nearly a year to get approved and there was no requirement that D* had to keep PrimeStar up and running (PrimeStar had quite a few more customers then Voom currently has).

I suspect the Justice Department will also play a part in any merger agreement. They were involved when DirecTV purchased Primestar so I seriously doubt E* will be treated any different.

As I understand it, DirecTV is planning to launch 2 Spaceway Satellites in the 2nd quarter of this year so my guess is at least one of them will be online prior to this merger going through.

I also seem to recall someone mentioning once that E* is already using Ka band technology for live TV (I think 121 is a Ka slot). It may not be spaceway satellites but I am not sure how that would make a difference.

As for the slot. Yes, they can mirror the channels between 61.5 and 148 as I am sure they already do but with the fact they have to do away with the 2 dishes for locals, I think these birds will be used primarily to clean house and meet their obligations.

Let me also add one other note to this message and that is I do not subscribe to either Voom or Dish Network so I really do not know much about their equipment or their satellites. My comments are based on what I have been told by installers, etc..


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

fluffybear said:


> ... prior to this merger going through.


It isn't a merger. It is a sale of assets. Cablevision will continue as a separate entity that will still own other satellite assets (albeit no active system).


fluffybear said:


> I also seem to recall someone mentioning once that E* is already using Ka band technology for live TV (I think 121 is a Ka slot).


The 121 in use today is Ku. It is FSS band, lower power and slightly lower frequency than DBS and nowhere near the Ka band.

Welcome to the forum. Hopefully as you do more reading you will pick up the details.

JL


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## jerryez (Nov 15, 2002)

Dish did not buy Voom, just some assets, but the frequencies is all that should need FCC approval. Even as slow as the FCC is, it should not take 6 months.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Actually the satellite has a license as well as the uplink dishes.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

E could mirror high def at 157 they own the entire slot. More than likely 61.5 will be used for more LIL.

More $$ in that...


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## jerry downing (Mar 7, 2004)

If you move a spotbeam satellite, would a spot beam which once pointed at Chicago now be pointed at somewhere in Wyoming?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jerry downing said:


> If you move a spotbeam satellite, would a spot beam which once pointed at Chicago now be pointed at somewhere in Wyoming?


It would be fun to predict. That is part of AMC-2's problem at 105. It was initially designed to do ConUS from another slot with a tight footprint. Now at 105 the footprint doesn't quite work.

I believe Rainbow1 would have the same problem. They could turn the satellite to try to get as many spots as possible actually hitting ConUS targets, but it is much better off where it belongs at 61.5.

JL


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

AMC-2 used to be Primestar's satellite. I think it was at 85 or something, and at 105 it just doesn't work as well.

If Rainbow 1 has spot beams then it is the perfect launch platform for high definition locals.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

justalurker said:


> It isn't a merger. It is a sale of assets. Cablevision will continue as a separate entity that will still own other satellite assets (albeit no active system).
> The 121 in use today is Ku. It is FSS band, lower power and slightly lower frequency than DBS and nowhere near the Ka band.
> 
> Welcome to the forum. Hopefully as you do more reading you will pick up the details.
> ...


I stand corrected!

I still think it will take at least 6 months for this to make it through the FCC. All the years I worked in TV and had to deal with them, I was lucky to get anything approved in a timely manner.


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## Chris Freeland (Mar 24, 2002)

Just speculation on my part, but I believe E* will use the V* spotbeam satellite for big market East coast HD locals to match D*. E* has enough capacity on 148 and 157 to offer big market local HD's from big West coast markets without spotbeams. Additional National HD locals could also be added to either 61.5 and 148/157 once E10 spotbeam satellite is launched to 110 to take care of the single dish problem, or they could be added to 105 once AMC-15 makes it their.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

How to replace analog locals with DT locals and get the HD locals as well, all without having to install a new dish or receiver to get SD locals and only replace the receiver to get HD locals? This would seem to be the question at hand. Quite complex. Part of the answer would seem to be to get the Mpeg2/Mpeg4 receivers into the stream very soon and go one market at a time. Oops! All the receivers in the market have to be replaced so the entire market can use Mpeg4 for locals to keep the bandwidth consumption at a minimum.


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## lionsrule (Nov 25, 2003)

Hi there,

Lot's of talk about the tech side of the new sat, but not many opinions on the fun part of what this might mean........more bandwidth=more (HD) channels!!!

So what might we get??

ESPN2
UNIVERSALHD
ALL OF THE VOOM EXCLUSIVES: MONSTERHD,ANIMANIAHD,ETC.....
LOCAL MARKETS IN HD??? (I have all 4 NETS in OTA HD!!!)

What else is there currently??

How long until we have an across the board offering in HD??
MTVHD
VH1HD
USAHD
FXHD
TOONHD
TBSHD
etc,etc,etc....??

any guesses??


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

If Rainbow1 can perform on the spotbeam level, the best use is LIL HD.
If you are going to have to have a second dish for LIL HD it might as well be a DBS dish.

JL


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

But it's not much HD lil they'll be able to do with that.

Using mpeg-2 and 8psk they'd only be able to supply about 5 markets. I really think it's way to early for satellite to jump into LILHD. there's not enough customers to make it worthwhile.

I'd say there's probably only about 1,000 at best that would use the LIL in each market...


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

This sorta follows what Chris Freeland posted in a prior post but with additional detail/rationale for what Dish should do with the additional capacity of Rainbow-1 (R-1). Dish should initially add more national HD including East and West Coast HD Network feeds with mirroring on both 61.5 and 148 since there appears to be a great deal of room left on 148 to match the new space from R-1. After the E-10 satellite is up and operational, the locals on the wings will be moved to spotbeams at 110 W to satisfy the one dish for all locals in a market rule. This frees up additional space on the wings, enough to allow the use of the R-1 spotbeams to provide HD locals to the top markets even without the conversion to MPEG-4. With the R-1 spotbeams, 3 - 4 TPs can be dedicated to each of the major markets providing as many as 12 HD local channels using 3 HD channels/TP and MPEG-2. Of course the major HD networks from New York and L.A. will be carried on CONUS TPs. 148 may also have enough room to add one or two of the big West Coast markets to augment the Rainbow-1 spotbeams. This also allows Dish time to really develop MPEG-4 without rushing new receivers to market with extensive bugs. This would also placate the customers who bought the 921, 811 and soon to be released 942 because the life of these receivers would be extended. Another bonus for Dish is that it is much cheaper to add a D300 wing dish for a customer than a SuperDish and many of the longtime Dish HD customers already have D300s and wing configurations.

As a side note, it will be interesting what Dish does with the capacity on AMC-16 at 85 W, the additional capacity provided by AMC-15 at 105 W and after the E-10 satellite is operational, what is done with E-6/E-8 at 110 W and E-5 at 119. Certainly one of these satellites (E-5, E-6 or E-8) could be used to provide useable west coast capacity at 157 W for HD locals. With 32 TPs and 3 HD channels/TP this comes out to 96 HD local channels using MPEG-2. Of course this may require some folks on the west coast to use two D500s, one for 110/119 and one for 148/157. Conversion to MPEG-4 receivers could be phased in slowly, perhaps a market at a time. This would keep initial production costs down and if there was a major flaw in the design of the new MPEG-4 receiver, it would not cost as much to replace them.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BFG said:


> Using mpeg-2 and 8psk they'd only be able to supply about 5 markets.


Are you completely forgetting the spotbeams? Uplinks centers are expensive, but if this works out they will be able to do a lot more than 5 markets on 11 TPs. 

JL


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

oopsies 

time to recalculate


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Providing LIL HD by Dish may depend a great deal on whether the FCC imposes must carry requirements similar to SD and multicasting requirements. I don't think these type of details were spelled out in SHREVA so the FCC needs to develop them with the expected much debate.

As a side question, how much is gained by going to MPEG-4? If Dish can jam 3 HD channels per TP with MPEG-2, how many HD channels per TP with MPEG-4?


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

If they could make the receiver downconvert HD into SD for the SD tv's then they could do away with all of the SD locals freeing up some space. This may also mean that all the receivers for everyone in that particular market would have to be replaced. 

They should just launch all locals in SD then start offering HD basic and premium channels that are available to everyone which would bring them more money than HD locals at this time until enough people have HD televisions which by that time it would be cheaper to do MPEG-4 for the rest of those customers as hardware costs would drop.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

They are seeking permission to downconvert HD locals at the transmission level in order to facilitate the lateral conversion from analog to digital locals. This could work if there was some sort of timeframe imposed on the provision of the available HD versions in place of the downconverted versions(downconversion then being moved to the receiver instead of the uplink). Call it the HD Must Carry Rule. No different than the current must carry in effect as it provides some of the protection for the lesser used HD content from extinction. Perhaps a compromise the local broadcasters might accept. They certainly will want their HD to be carried, but they should have some reason to boost their power to get more OTA carriage as well. The digital white area rules should be constructed with this in mind.


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## bavaria72 (Jun 10, 2004)

JohnH said:


> They are seeking permission to downconvert HD locals at the transmission level...


I have to tell you that this has all of the signs of disaster on it. How much downconverting are we talking here? Fortunately I get my locals OTA but my bothers and sisters out there in the hinterlands could end up getting barely better than SD quality and E* claiming they are adding all types of HD content. I want to see just how much donconverting we are talking here.


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

Here is a good plan for HD:

- Carry NY/LA networks on national beams. All of these networks are O&O.
- Then, take another city, for example Houston. Houston has an O&O ABC and O&O FOX. Give Houston the NY feeds for FOX and ABC, and carry the local HD stations for CBS and NBC on spotbeams.
- Do similar setups with other large markets.

This way they can maximize the number of full markets they can serve.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Jacob S said:


> If they could make the receiver downconvert HD into SD for the SD tv's then they could do away with all of the SD locals freeing up some space.


The trouble is that ASTC DT stations rarely broadcast the same signal as their NTSC TV counterparts. Stations that do HD have the choice of having a 24/7 HD feed that shows upconverted commercials and non-HD content or a part-time HD feed that flips back and forth. Most stations have gone with the 24/7 HD idea ... which means if E* grabbed that feed the SD downcovert viewers would get a blaok box on all sides of the screen. If it is one of the moron stations that stretches SD when upconverted to HD it gets worse. Of course, the downconvert to SD could include a crop to 4:3, but that still is not the same as the NTSC TV feed on stations that stretch SD upcoverts or properly show SD on NTSC and HD on ATSC.

And then the subchannel issue comes in. Many stations have a subchannel on their HD feed ... sometimes a 4:3 SD version of the HD, sometimes an entirely different feed or two entirely different feeds. (Yes, we have one DT station in my area that does HD-CBS, SD-UPN & SD-Radar ... and it isn't uncommon.) So what gets carried?

As long as there is a NTSC TV signal being broadcast there needs to be SD channels on the satellite. If satellite adds the ATSC DT signal they should carry all of the subcarriers. The transition to DT is not about transitioning to HD ... although that is the carrot to get people to upgrade their receivers. The transition to DT is about changing from NTSC to ATSC ... and ATSC is much more than HD - it is the ability to multicast. I would agree that subscription subcarriers need not to be carried on satellite - but anything that is offered free on the DT signal should be part of the satellite package.

Of course, that's just my opinion. We all await the FCC to act.



Jacob S said:


> They should just launch all locals in SD then start offering HD basic and premium channels that are available to everyone which would bring them more money than HD locals at this time until enough people have HD televisions which by that time it would be cheaper to do MPEG-4 for the rest of those customers as hardware costs would drop.


I agree with that path. All locals up in SD from either their original NTSC signal or a DT mirror. No downconverting.

JL


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I must disagree. Uplink the ATSC station primary channel. If there's a subchannel that's a different network, it's a different channel, and handle accordingly.

The downconversion needs to be done IN THE STB. If you've got an HD box, no downconversion. If it's an SD box, *it needs to downconvert the same way as the station downconverts the network feed to NTSC right now.*

This way, once the boxes are out there, no double-carry is needed.

Also, I support ANY AND ALL efforts to share LiL bandwidth between D* and E*. At the moment, it's not feasible, but with both sides converting to MPEG-4, they should be able to git-r-done - although it might take an FCC hammer to make it happen.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah. I deffinetly think if E* is gonna do LIL HD it should not be the same markets D* is planning on doing.


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## Shellback X 23 (Sep 19, 2004)

Just an aside. This morning I saw a VOOM commercial on HDTV. Just like nothing is happening!


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## Shellback X 23 (Sep 19, 2004)

Should have been Home & GardenTV


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SimpleSimon said:


> it needs to downconvert the same way as the station downconverts the network feed to NTSC right now.


In other words, not at all.

The networks are still running duplicate feeds. A HD feed and a separate SD/NTSC feed. Local stations are not "downconverting" HD for NTSC use, they use the network's SD feed for NTSC use and - if they have a HD on their DT - the network HD feed for HD use.

So the same way as stations get it is having separate SD and HD feeds. 

JL


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

Shellback X 23 said:


> Just an aside. This morning I saw a VOOM commercial on HDTV. Just like nothing is happening!


The announcment was just that. This will take time. Echostar hasn't gotten anything yet. God relax man!


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## wcswett (Jan 7, 2003)

rocatman said:


> Providing LIL HD by Dish may depend a great deal on whether the FCC imposes must carry requirements similar to SD and multicasting requirements. I don't think these type of details were spelled out in SHREVA so the FCC needs to develop them with the expected much debate.


The new law requires that satellite rebroadcasts dedicate at least as much bandwidth as the terrestrial broadcasts they are relaying, which I would interpret to mean that satellite must carry all HD and subchannels of any digital channel they wish to rebroadcast.

--- WCS


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## wcswett (Jan 7, 2003)

JohnH said:


> They are seeking permission to downconvert HD locals at the transmission level in order to facilitate the lateral conversion from analog to digital locals.


This will require a change in the new SHVERA law, which currently requires that in order to rebroadcast digitals the satellite carriers must match the terrestrial broadcast bandwidth.

--- WCS


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

justalurker said:


> In other words, not at all.
> 
> The networks are still running duplicate feeds. A HD feed and a separate SD/NTSC feed. Local stations are not "downconverting" HD for NTSC use, they use the network's SD feed for NTSC use and - if they have a HD on their DT - the network HD feed for HD use.
> 
> ...


That is correct. In fact ABC and CBS only have their HD hauls up when the network is going to be delivering HD.


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

wcswett said:


> in order to rebroadcast digitals the satellite carriers must match the terrestrial broadcast bandwidth.


Could they still convert digitals to MPEG-4 though even though that uses less bandwidth?


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## wcswett (Jan 7, 2003)

Mike Richardson said:


> Could they still convert digitals to MPEG-4 though even though that uses less bandwidth?


I don't know how the FCC will interpret and enforce the law, but the wording was that satellite rebroadcast was to be of at least equal bandwidth to the terrestrial broadcast where digital retransmission was concerned. My own opinion of the paragraph was that satellite distributors (can't remember if it also applied to cable) are not to downconvert digital signals or drop subchannels in order to carry more DMA's. They're to add DMA retransmissions of digital channels as they're able to carry the full load of HD and subchannels. I would guess that the FCC will have to come up with rulings pretty quickly on how compression, modulation and down-resolution affect compliance with the law, since these are already issues on some systems.

--- WCS


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Sounds like a double bummer here - the duplicate network feed issue and the stupid bandwidth issue - assuming that that really DOES mean you have to carry the stupid subchannels - like we're gonna need 3-4 separate weather radars for each DMA.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

No, subchannels were rulled out of must-carry not to long ago...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

wcswett said:


> I don't know how the FCC will interpret and enforce the law, but the wording was that satellite rebroadcast was to be of at least equal bandwidth to the terrestrial broadcast where digital retransmission was concerned.


It really raises a problem when it comes to HD+SD feeds. What will they do? Scale back the bits on the HD satellite channel if there is an SD involved? Or will stations with HD+2 SD get more bandwidth than HD only stations?

It is a mess. Hopefully the FCC will make it clear.

JL


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## wcswett (Jan 7, 2003)

justalurker said:


> It really raises a problem when it comes to HD+SD feeds. What will they do? Scale back the bits on the HD satellite channel if there is an SD involved? Or will stations with HD+2 SD get more bandwidth than HD only stations?
> 
> It is a mess. Hopefully the FCC will make it clear.


I did a little more digging, going back to the 29 meg PDF file...

The SHVERA says:
--------------
BANDWIDTH - The terms "equivalent bandwidth" and "entire bandwidth" shall be defined by the Commission [FCC] by regulation, except that this paragraph shall not be construed -

(A) to prevent the satellite operator from using compression technology

(B) to require a satellite operator to use the identical bandwidth or bit rate as the local or distant broadcaster whose signal it is retransmitting

(C) to require a satellite operator to use the same identical bandwidth or bit rate for a local network station as it does for a distant network station
... [etc.]
------------------
So, though other parts of SHVERA call for the use of equivalent bandwidth and entire bandwidth, this little bit above seems to remove nearly all the sting from that requirement. The FCC is left to decide if satellite rebroadcasters are living up to the spirit and intent of retransmitting equivalent or entire bandwidth, when required by this law.

--- WCS


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## wcswett (Jan 7, 2003)

Just to add one more note... the SHVERA provides that satellite rebroadcasters may negotiate a waiver with local network channels, ie. they can go to a network affiliate and tell them they can carry just so much or nothing, and let the local station decide if they want a subset of their digital transmissions to be carried or to be left out of the locals package.

--- WCS


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## ypsiguy (Jan 28, 2004)

I would guess that we with E* will get a mix of new HD/SD and also some Eastern US locals will be moved to 61.5 from 110/119 to lighten the load on those satellites. I get a free dish since one of my Detroit locals is on 61.5, so I think I'll have them put it up for me. For V* folks, I am betting that they get an offer of a free 811 receiver to stay. Voom and its Motorola box will be history very soon. Charlie always criticized V*'s speciality channels as upconverted repetition, so they'll probably be the first to go along with the redundant feeds of SD.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Moving any major city to 61.5 or 148 would seem too cost prohibitive, unless the second dish take has been quite substantial.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

My personal thoughts are that they will use superdish 105 for the LIL top markets. AMC-15 has KA spots that they could use to send LIL HD down. There is also the capacity of AMC-16 which I would think they would use for the next tier down in cities since it could be possible to make a superdish 85 and have a single dish solution.

61.5 could get the third tier down in cities. Since this would be mostly east coast cities (since there are not as many different large DMAs out west), the spots would help a lot.

With AMC-15, AMC-16, and Rainbow-1, Dish might be able to carry the top 50 markets LIL HD. This would keep them up with DIRECTV this year.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

i work for installs inc (we do voom installs) we are told to go on as though nothing is happening and it is possible voom may stay up and that they lease this space from dish. I know that if they do go down dish will offer something to everyone who is voom cx so that they can gain the cxs before D* does. charlie is all about ganing cxs but the bad part is he doesnt seem to care about HD content at all which sucks. i think paying $10 a month for a couple HD channels i think they should keep it that price even after adding more hd content. but if you want voom go for it you might get a really good deal from dish and you might even get to keep your service if they stay active. i will keep you posted as to any updates we hear about.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

They could have all the smaller LIL markets on the wing sat's which would save space for the core slots for HD. The smaller dishes would be cheaper for the dish and installation for the company along with easier to tune in.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ibooksrule said:


> i work for installs inc (we do voom installs) we are told to go on as though nothing is happening and it is possible voom may stay up and that they lease this space from dish. I know that if they do go down dish will offer something to everyone who is voom cx so that they can gain the cxs before D* does. charlie is all about ganing cxs but the bad part is he doesnt seem to care about HD content at all which sucks. i think paying $10 a month for a couple HD channels i think they should keep it that price even after adding more hd content. but if you want voom go for it you might get a really good deal from dish and you might even get to keep your service if they stay active. i will keep you posted as to any updates we hear about.


I've worked for a couple of companies that owned their buildings... then when times got rough, they sold the building to a realtor and then leased space in the building to keep the business afloat... In all cases these were temporary measures, and none of those companies exist anymore... So even if the pie-in-the-sky dream of Voom leasing back the Rainbow-1 usage were to happen... I can't think it would be anything more than a slightly extended delay on them going the rest of the way under.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

You're dreaming. The number of subscribers they have isn't enough to keep paying the utilities much less pay for programming and hardware costs.

They threw the Hail Mary and the receiver dropped it. After billions down the hole, Cablevision is pulling the plug. There will be NO ONE willing to pony up $500 Million to a $1 Billion to keep the sinking ship above water.


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## Spartan (Aug 7, 2002)

I just got off the phone with advance tech support and he told me that they're not supposed to talk about it, but as a direct result of this new satellite purchase Dish will be adding 30+ HD channels. They said, oops, I'm wasn't supposed to, but I just let the cat out of the bag. What they haven't worked out is how much extra to charge consumers. I asked if my 921 will be able to pick up the extra channels and he said, yes as long as I have a dish pointed at 61.5. Personally I would love the extra channels, but my wallet is getting thinner by the day, so hopefully we'll get NBC ABC and Fox with no extra charge. Stay tuned


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Wonder how many other versions the rumor mill will generate?


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Well, he just got off the phone though.....


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Some of the best rumors were started by E* CSRs.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Once again, a CSR talking out of his ass causing problems once again.......

Until things are officially announced OR you get a leak from one of the executives inside the moat, assume all other items are fabrications.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

LMAO, rotflmao, lol

ahh geez, what a joke...


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

You never know... even though a rumor.. still... maybe there is at least small percent of probability that could be true.. 

Who knows.. 
The beauty of it (and that's "all we can do" actually) is JUST wait and see.. what will happen when it happens (lol)... meanwhile digesting some other rumors at the same time


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

They just keep dangling that old carrot.......... Yes stay with us and soon we will have 30 hd channels!  

RIGHT!!:eek2:


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I did have this dream one night... where I turned on my TV, and just started punching numbers randomly on the remote... and I kept finding more new HD channels.

I didn't want to tell anyone in case that would make the dream not come true


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

OMG. I had a dream like that as well.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

HDMe said:


> I did have this dream one night... where I turned on my TV, and just started punching numbers randomly on the remote... and I kept finding more new HD channels.
> 
> I didn't want to tell anyone in case that would make the dream not come true


...or classify it as a rumor :lol:


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## jerryez (Nov 15, 2002)

Mine is not a dream. Here in Pensacola Florida, we get ABC(Sinclair),CBS,NBC, WB, Fox,UPN and two PBS station in HD with an ouside antenna. . Add that to HBO, ST, TNT, HDNet and HDnet Movies, ESPN, DiscoveryHD and l have a retty good HD line up. Of course, I am always ready for more, like SciFi HD.


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## BasicBlak (Jan 26, 2005)

Bill R said:


> EchoStar To Purchase Satellite from Cablevision, http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=dish&script=410&layout=-6&item_id=665115
> 
> "...The satellite includes 13 frequencies, up to 12 of which can be operated in "spot beam" mode."


Greetings, all! Could someone kindly explain to me what "spot beam mode" means? Many thanks!


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

BasicBlak said:


> Greetings, all! Could someone kindly explain to me what "spot beam mode" means? Many thanks!


"Spot beam mode" is used to send the signal from the satellite to a specific (limited) area. You can think of a spot beam like a beam from a flashlight. Both DISH and DirecTV use that mode for quite a few of their local channels. "Spot beam mode" allows transponder frequencies to be used several times.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

Bill R said:


> "Spot beam mode" is used to send the signal from the satellite to a specific (limited) area. You can think of a spot beam like a beam from a flashlight. Both DISH and DirecTV use that mode for quite a few of their local channels. "Spot beam mode" allows transponder frequencies to be used several times.


And the number of transponders used is a limited number, per location, by law


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

olgeezer said:


> And the number of transponders used is a limited number, per location, by law


The transponder frequencies are limited. For example RainbowDBS/Voom holds a license to 11 transponder frequencies at 61.5 ... they cannot broadcast on other transponder frequencies on 61.5 or on transponder frequencies at other slots without gaining further authorization. (E*'s authorization for 29 frequencies at 110 does not allow them to use those 29 frequencies at 119, 61.5, or 148. They have separate authorizations for the 21 transponder frequencies at 119, 11 transponder frequencies at 61.5, and all 32 transponder frequencies at 148.)

What RainbowDBS does with their 11 licensed transponder frequencies is up to them - as long as they don't interfere with other DBS licensees in the US or internationally. They can use them all ConUS or split them in to as many spots as possible. Each spot is driven by a transponder. In essence, Rainbow1 has over 100 transponders on Rainbow1 when operated in spotbeam mode ... shoehorned in on 11 frequencies.

They have also designed the satellite to operate spot transponders on one of the "spare" frequencies on 61.5 (the 12th transponder capable of spot use) and also have the capablity of using the other "spare" transponder in ConUS mode.

The transponder frequencies are limited by license - but the spot use on a licensed frequency is only limited by the fact that the signals still have to fall somewhere within the ConUS footprint.

JL


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

justalurker said:


> What RainbowDBS does with their 11 licensed transponder frequencies is up to them - as long as they don't interfere with other DBS licensees in the US or internationally. They can use them all ConUS or split them in to as many spots as possible. Each spot is driven by a transponder. In essence, Rainbow1 has over 100 transponders on Rainbow1 when operated in spotbeam mode ... shoehorned in on 11 frequencies.
> 
> JL


I am curious about your source for 100+ TPs on Rainbow-1. I had read on another website of questionable accuracy that Rainbow-1 only had 36 TPs on it. If there are 100+ TPs on Rainbow-1, Dish stole it from Voom at $200 million that includes the licenses and the uplink center. This would provide Dish with substantial capability to provide HD locals.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Rainbow-1 does not have a lot of transponders. If you go to the FCC and look at the merger documents like: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6513292881

22 spots (but not clear how many TPs per spot) and 13 national transponders. Note in the document they wanted Echostar-3 for at least 3 years (so they could build/launch a new satellite) since Rainbow-1 could not do all the transponders at 61.5 by itself. This is probably similar to Echostar-7 & 8 with spot TPs (25 in E7 & E8) and some national TPs (16 in the case of E-7 & E8). Not enough to cover all 32 possible TPs.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> I am curious about your source for 100+ TPs on Rainbow-1.


I didn't do an exact count last night, but do remember that these are spot transponders, covering only a small circle within ConUS.


Mike123abc said:


> Rainbow-1 does not have a lot of transponders.


The 22 spots have a total of 120 spot transponders (comparable to the 25 spot transponders). In addition, TP 23 can be used in 11 of those spots. 131 spot transponders plus ConUS transponders for all 11 licensed frequencies and the two "spare" transponders.

That's what RainbowDBS has filed with the ITU.

JL


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mike123abc said:


> http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6513292881


I find it interesting that on pg 7, Cablevision states 30 TPs at 61.5. That would be their 11, E*'s 11, the spare 2, and 6 of SkyAngel's. They expected to assume E* lease of those channels (and E*'s obligation to SA).

Cablevision certainly had high hopes for the slot. Better service than either E* or D* can do from a single location. 

JL


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

justalurker said:


> I didn't do an exact count last night, but do remember that these are spot transponders, covering only a small circle within ConUS.The 22 spots have a total of 120 spot transponders (comparable to the 25 spot transponders). In addition, TP 23 can be used in 11 of those spots. 131 spot transponders plus ConUS transponders for all 11 licensed frequencies and the two "spare" transponders.
> 
> That's what RainbowDBS has filed with the ITU.
> 
> JL


This configuration would support the use of 2 - 3 TPs per spotbeam as a minimum depending on the spotbeam overlap and certainly more for spotbeams that only overlap 1 or 2 other spotbeams. What may limit the number of spotbeams used is power. Spotbeam TPs use much less power than CONUS TPs because their beam is focused on "small area" but Rainbow-1 is a Lockheed Martin A2100AX satellite. This a fair size satellite bus but it does not have the power capability of the Loral 1300 series satellite. As a side note, one would expect Echostar-11 to be a spotbeam satellite simply because it will be a Loral 1300 series.

If Dish can not get FCC approval for the transfer of Voom frequency licenses, they should try to swap their 11 frequencies for the 11 of Voom' so they can use Rainbow-1 and its spotbeams. Dish would also pick up at least one useable frequency since Echostar-3 can only provide 10 of their 11 frequencies.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> This configuration would support the use of 2 - 3 TPs per spotbeam as a minimum depending on the spotbeam overlap and certainly more for spotbeams that only overlap 1 or 2 other spotbeams.


With all 120 lit they have 4 to 7 TPs per spot. Didn't say they were not crazy.

Go back to post 82 of this thread for the details.

JL


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

MSoper72 said:


> I have some bad news for you guys, but I heard today from a source that has spoken to Rainbows' (Voom) CEO that Voom is NOT going to sell transponders nor is it going under. The person told me that the son of the ceo of Voom was trying to sell Voom; when the ceo (dad) caught his son and stopped the process. :eek2: So, sorry guys for the bad news. :nono2:


I have to reply to this post but its been a long week and I want to stay somewhat civilized. Let's just say someone needs a reality pill.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

MSoper72 said:


> I have some bad news for you guys, but I heard today from a source that has spoken to Rainbows' (Voom) CEO that Voom is NOT going to sell transponders nor is it going under. The person told me that the son of the ceo of Voom was trying to sell Voom; when the ceo (dad) caught his son and stopped the process. :eek2: So, sorry guys for the bad news. :nono2:


Tee are double oh el

Either the person is a liar or you are. It's a lie so it really doesn't matter.

JL


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

MSoper72 said:


> I have some bad news for you guys, but I heard today from a source that has spoken to Rainbows' (Voom) CEO that Voom is NOT going to sell transponders nor is it going under.


I think your "source" may be confused. True, they are not selling ALL their transopnders but they are selling the ones that they have at 61.5 (and the satellite) to Echostar. See this article: Cablevision Chairman to Acquire VOOM Assets, http://www.worldscreen.com/newscurrent.php?filename=voom211.htm


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

I still have not seen exactly how many TPs Rainbow-1 can have operating at the same time. The ITU filing does not specify that all the TPs in each spot would be on at the same time. They have to allow for adjacent spot interference. They obviously cannot have the same TP frequencies used in every spot since that would cause interference.

There are a lot of limits. One of them is the uplink frequency reuse. R1 gets around a lot of this by having the uplink in each spot. What is the power capacity of the satellite?

The specs of E7 & E8 are fairly well shown of about 25 possible spots on at the same time. But, if you took all 15 spots and multiplied it by the 5 possible frequencies of each spot you would end up with it looking like they could do 75 TPs in spots and 16 CONUS, when in fact they can only do ~25 in spot and 16 in CONUS. I suspect R1 is similar, it may list 120 possible spot, but how many can it really do?


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

MSoper72 said:


> I, for 1, really do not care about it. That is just what I heard today. So go figure. Besides, I'm not a liar. So just lay off on the "liar" stuff. :nono2:


I suggest in the future that you do a little bit of research before you post something like this especially:

"the son of the ceo of Voom was trying to sell Voom; when the ceo (dad) caught his son and stopped the process."

The sale of some of Voom's assets to Dish/Echostar was announced three weeks ago with official news releases from both Cablevision/Voom and Dish/Echostar. There was also the news release today about Cablevision selling the rest of the Voom assets with reference to the deal with Dish/Echostar as noted in the link provided in a previous post. Just firing off a post like you did only hurts your credibility. Your "So, sorry guys for the bad news." just inflamed the situation even more because of your apparent smugness. I'll get off my soapbox now and back to the subject of the thread.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Well, a request for transfer of the satellite and frequencies was withdrawn at the FCC. I have not seen a new request. rocatman can you look for one?


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

hmm, where did you dig that up at?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Apparently the delete button is working ... is an apology coming?
Point by point:


MSoper72 said:


> I have some bad news for you guys, but I heard today *from a source that has spoken to Rainbows' (Voom) CEO*


From some guy you were buying RG-6 from ... who SPOKE to Charles Dolan???


> that *Voom is NOT going to sell transponders*


The 8-K was posted on the Cablevision (Voom's owner) website on January 21st. A new 8-K was posted this evening. The first 8-K clearly defined the sale of Voom's only operating satellite, 11 DBS frequencies and a so new it hasn't been used uplink center in SD to E*. The second 8-K notes the letter of understanding announced late yesterday that Charles Dolan and others forming VoomHD will be buying *the rest* of Voom.


> nor is it going under.


That remains to be proven. VoomHD has until the 28th to find financing and get the definitive agreement from Cablevision. Voom is still on life support.


> The person told me that *the son of the ceo of Voom was trying to sell Voom*;


The BOARD of Cablevision with Mr Dolan present voted to sell the three assets named above to E*. Not the son.


> when the ceo (dad) caught his son and stopped the process.


The process has NOT been stopped. If anything, it was CONFIRMED in today's 8-K. The E* purchase will continue while VoomHD buys the rest of Voom DBS.


> So, sorry guys for the bad news.


No problem. Sometimes it is fun to indulge in fantasies. 

JL


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

JohnH said:


> Well, a request for transfer of the satellite and frequencies was withdrawn at the FCC. I have not seen a new request. rocatman can you look for one?


I jump on the FCC site every weekday around lunch time for their Daily Business Digest which is usually the time they are posted. I have not seen anything new recently or I would post it right away. JL thought the Dish request was for the uplink center and that might have been the case. If it was for the uplink center, I could understand why it was withdrawn. The FCC could approve the uplink center transfer without approving the transfer of the DBS frequencies, not a good thing. If it was for the frequencies, perhaps Dish was made aware of Charles Dolan buying up the remaining Voom assets and making a go of it with Voom and wanted to revise their approach on the application. I believe the competition argument against the frequency transfers has been diminished if not eliminated but who knows with the politically whacky FCC. Even if the FCC does not approve the frequency transfers outright, I think Dish should try to work some frequency swap deal and keep Rainbow-1 with its spotbeams. As I stated previously, at $200 million, Dish stole Rainbow-1.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> I jump on the FCC site every weekday around lunch time for their Daily Business Digest which is usually the time they are posted.


I have the Daily Digest emailed to me daily. The most recent notes on E* were in relation to several oral presentations they made. The proceeding numbers match written presentations made on Feb 4th. Those written presentations are identical documents mentioning the oral presentations.

The subject: Digital LIL and E*'s desire NOT to carry full HD channels.
Looks like they won, although I havn't read the details fully.

E*'s withdrawal noted before was in a list of other EARTH STATION withdrawals. That's where the assumption comes from. Unfortunately the IB doesn't say much until an issue is over. It is easier to find decisions made than topics under consideration. (Unlike the MB.)

JL


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Report No: SES-00682 Released: 02/02/2005. SATELLITE COMMUNICATIONS SERVICES INFORMATION Re: Actions Taken. IB. Contact: (202) 418-0719, TTY: (202) 418-2555 
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-256474A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-256474A1.txt

It does say Just 1 station.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Fixed the URLs. Must be after midnight.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

*SES*-ASG-INTR2005-00208

It is the earth station. Note the "SES" at the beginning of the reference. If it were the satellite it would be "SAT".

Rainbow DBS Company LLC has the following licenses active:
E020248 for the SD uplink
E030102 for the NY uplink
S2653 for Rainbow1

I've attached the license for SD.

JL


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

justalurker said:


> *SES*-ASG-INTR2005-00208
> 
> It is the earth station. Note the "SES" at the beginning of the reference. If it were the satellite it would be "SAT".
> 
> ...


Good find JL. It looks like the earth station is tied to the satellite so the FCC probably would have denied the application anyway until the DBS frequencies are transfered. The Rainbow-1 license, S2653 is something to look for in future FCC documents.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> Good find JL.


Thanks.


 rocatman said:


> It looks like the earth station is tied to the satellite so the FCC probably would have denied the application anyway until the DBS frequencies are transfered.


The earth station is licensed to use the ALSAT list plus Rainbow1. E* could buy it without R1 and use it for the other satellites or even get it relicensed to shoot at other locations (I'm sure that RainbowDBS planned on adding 166 and 175 to SD eventually ... E* could add all of their DBS locations).

E* has many more earth station licenses than RainbowDBS. I started spinning through them last night and found GilbertAZ licensed for C band and all of E*'s DBS birds (separate licenses). And V*'s uplink in BethpageNY is also licensed to uplink to satellites at 100.8 and 101.2 ... (and no, this shouldn't be taken as the beginning of a rumor that V* will be supplying D* with HD  ).

One doesn't have to own a satellite to own an uplink and vice versa.

JL


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

justalurker said:


> *SES*-ASG-INTR2005-00208
> 
> It is the earth station. Note the "SES" at the beginning of the reference. If it were the satellite it would be "SAT".


Or maybe not. :sure:

Now that I have found where the IB hides its filings, the total description did include the satellite and licenses as well as the ground station and licenses.

Current Link for the refiled application.
SAT-ASG-20050128-00017 S2653
SES-ASG-20050131-00117 E020248
(The filing and attachments are the same since they are tied together.)

The sale agreement is there ... part of "Exhibit F" on the attachment menu.
10meg!

Enjoy!

JL


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

I guess it good to hear that Dish/Rainbow DBS has filed for the frequency license transfer at least from a Dish point of view. The $200 million question: will the FCC approve of the license transfer? A secondary question to that is what impact if any does the efforts by Charles Dolan to keep Voom alive have on the FCC approval. It could be argued that if Voom is kept alive, it needs to have to licenses as well as the Rainbow-1 satellite (R-1) and uplink center to stay competitive. It could also be argued that Charles Dolan believes he can keep Voom alive even without R-1 and in fact has a better chance without R-1. It also needs to be recognized that the Cablevision Board of Directors has a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to get the most money for the Rainbow DBS assets and Charles Dolan may not be able to afford the $200 million for R-1 and the uplink center and still keep Voom alive. 

Now if Charles Dolan is unsuccessful in obtaining the financing to keep Voom alive, it could be argued that the licenses should be auctioned to someone else besides Dish (or DirecTV) for competitive purposes. It could also be argued that Cablevision tried to make a go of creating a third major satellite provider and failed and anyone else would fail as well with only 11 or 13 frequency licenses at 61.5 W so why not let Dish have them and use them in the best interest of the American public with R-1 (Note: This is the standard wording/argument the FCC uses when approving various licensing issues).

There are two other issues out there that should be mentioned. One is the 4.5 degree separation for DBS slots. If the FCC were to approve or were planning on approving this, how might it impact the license transfer approval especially since Dish already has a lease agreement with SES Americom for use of the frequencies at 105.5 W. 

The second issue that I have mentioned previously is for Dish to work a deal with the FCC to swap the 11 frequencies it has license for at 61.5 for the 11 that Rainbow DBS owns in order to utilize the newer more capable R-1 satellite. Dish could also ask for temporary authority to use all the 61.5 licenses or at least the two frequencies being used temporarily by Rainbow DBS. Dish could also keep the satellite and move it elsewhere although the spotbeam capabilities would probably be lost. I can not see the FCC being able to block the sale of R-1 if Dish wanted to move it to a location it already owned the licenses. 

If the FCC does not approve the transfer of the licenses outright, Dish will either cancel the purchase agreement or rework it for less dollars based on what the FCC rules although there could be provisions in the purchase agreement for these various contingencies mentioned above.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rocatman said:


> I guess it good to hear that Dish/Rainbow DBS has filed for the frequency license transfer at least from a Dish point of view. The $200 million question: will the FCC approve of the license transfer?


I believe they will. Possibly grudgingly, but they would need a REAL GOOD excuse. At this point denying the license transfer would most likely lead to the collapse of Voom (which isn't far off anyways - unless Dolan turns in a miracle save).


rocatman said:


> It could also be argued that Cablevision tried to make a go of creating a third major satellite provider and failed and anyone else would fail as well with only 11 or 13 frequency licenses at 61.5 W so why not let Dish have them and use them in the best interest of the American public with R-1 (Note: This is the standard wording/argument the FCC uses when approving various licensing issues).


Amazingly enough, that's pretty much the wording that E* put in their application for transfer.


rocatman said:


> There are two other issues out there that should be mentioned. One is the 4.5 degree separation for DBS slots. If the FCC were to approve or were planning on approving this, how might it impact the license transfer approval especially since Dish already has a lease agreement with SES Americom for use of the frequencies at 105.5 W.


I believe the approval of 61.5 is more likely to affect the appoval of tweeners than the potential approval of tweeners affecting this 61.5 deal.


rocatman said:


> The second issue that I have mentioned previously is for Dish to work a deal with the FCC to swap the 11 frequencies it has license for at 61.5 for the 11 that Rainbow DBS owns in order to utilize the newer more capable R-1 satellite.


This would only be upon failure of the deal they have requested. One step at a time.


rocatman said:


> I can not see the FCC being able to block the sale of R-1 if Dish wanted to move it to a location it already owned the licenses.


They control the license to R-1. The orbital assignments are not licensed separately from the satellite. If E* wanted to move the satellite or replace it they would have to get FCC permission to change the license ... even if the change was to "in orbit spare".

One interesting fact in the application: Voom had 26,000 subscribers in Sept 2004 ... that we all know and until next week that is the subscriber count we have. But revealed in the app is that *39%* of all the customers who signed up for Voom through Sept 30th had either cancelled or were 90 days or more past due. Aug 2004 churn 16%, Sept 2004 churn 13% with past dues included.

Also, from the Sale Agreement, E* is getting Rainbow1 debt free - all leins released. Which means whatever is owed by Cablevision is STILL owed by Cablevision.

JL


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