# Tivo and Liberty Media



## faust0068 (Mar 29, 2007)

Has anyone else heard the rumors that once the sale of Directv to Liberty Media in final, that Directv is going to go back to Tivo boxes? Seems that Tivo reps are selling that idea, at least to potential advertisers.


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

faust0068 said:


> Seems that Tivo reps are selling that idea, at least to potential advertisers.


Wouldn't you if you were a TiVo rep? Have to give the advertisers some hope of making money....

Probably they (reps) can refer to these comments from TiVo's CEO



> Liberty is a company that has no ownership interests, now or even after the DirecTV closes, in a competing DVR, so that probably changes things. I know the guys at Liberty, I've known them for a long time, I think it is fair to say that they're fans of TiVo and what it does. So, certainly, I look at that as positive in terms of the change of ownership. That deal hasn't closed and therefore suggesting that there is anything that might follow from it is totally pre-mature. But I'd say in the scheme of things, that's a positive thing.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Ummm, it's just a rumor and if TIVO is the source, they're misleading their investors and advertisers. Other than the continuing support for the existing DirecTIVO boxes, there are no plans to return to TIVO.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Yes... it has been speculated... rumor, based on a few comments by TiVo... and the fact that somewhere sometime John Malone, stated he liked TiVo.

Fuelled in turn by the announcement that the DTiVos that will get a software update in early 2008, to add 3 features.

But past that... everything is just speculation...


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

MikeR, I love this portion of the TIVO quote:


> Liberty is a company that has no ownership interests, now or even after the DirecTV closes, in a competing DVR


Actually, once the deal closes, Liberty has acquired an ownership interest in and becomes the manufacturer of the HR20 and R15, 2 competing DVR's that are DirecTV products.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

DirecTV is in the business to make money. Or else they go out of business. That is a given. (At least to most reasonable thinking persons.) DirecTV provides content to customers. Many customers have Tivo boxes that can't get the MPEG-4 signal but sure would like to get (and pay) for all those new channels that DirecTV is beginning to provide. Does anyone really think that DirecTV is going to leave all those Tivo potential paying customers out in the cold? Why in the world would DirecTV not want every single breathing person to receive (and pay) for their services? Why wouldn't they make every effort to get the MPEG-4 signals to all those potential paying customers? $$$$$$?? Perhaps that is the reason for the noticable change of tone here.


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

say-what said:


> MikeR, I love this portion of the TIVO quote:
> 
> Actually, once the deal closes, Liberty has acquired an ownership interest in and becomes the manufacturer of the HR20 and R15, 2 competing DVR's that are DirecTV products.


and one clue to why the Directv/TiVo marriage failed...


> If there is one thing we are religious about, it's not to compete with our customers. TiVo failed with DirecTV because it didn't understand that,"


-David Richardson, director of new media and business development liaison to the content industry for NDS

Tivo  has more to benefit  in a renewal of the relationsip w/Directv


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

"If there is one thing we are religious about, it's not to compete with our customers. TiVo failed with DirecTV because it didn't understand that," 


What does he mean by "not competing with our customers?" Not competing FOR their customers? Oh, please. It's not like the DirecTIVO deal was not just about the best deal around for getting a TIVO. They did not like TIVO selling stand alone units? Please. D* or any other company is not ever going to conquer the world and have it all. Besides, D* was the one (as far as I understand) that kept the DirecTIVO uinits from getting the latest functionality. Their best bet is to offer the best product and service and let the customers come based on that. Don't worry if TIVO sells stand alone units as well. That is very small minded and short sighted, IMHO 

I guess McDonalds should not sell Coke because Coke is "competing for their customers" by selling in grocery stores and other fast food outlets.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> What does he mean by "not competing with our customers?"


Tivo's standalone units and DirecTivo units competed and for many consumers there was / is much confusion in the market place. A person could go by a Tivo and then call DTV and say I want service and I already have a Tivo, but then it would not work so DTV probably lost a sale and Tivo probably did also.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

DirecTV has gotten itself into a ridiculous position and is twenty years behind the times. Why stop at the receiver? Why not have to us a D*-manufactured dish? The TV? The coaxial? Why not all go back twenty years and give back our Panasonic or Sanyo telephones because we have to use Ma Bell's phone?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jjohns said:


> DirecTV is in the business to make money. Or else they go out of business. That is a given. (At least to most reasonable thinking persons.) DirecTV provides content to customers. Many customers have Tivo boxes that can't get the MPEG-4 signal but sure would like to get (and pay) for all those new channels that DirecTV is beginning to provide. Does anyone really think that DirecTV is going to leave all those Tivo potential paying customers out in the cold? Why in the world would DirecTV not want every single breathing person to receive (and pay) for their services? Why wouldn't they make every effort to get the MPEG-4 signals to all those potential paying customers? $$$$$$?? Perhaps that is the reason for the noticable change of tone here.


Cost.... balance..

It would not be cheap to build a 2nd HD-DVR... do you think TiVo is going to do it for free? or the manufacturers would build/design the hardware?

The entire process would be very expensive... far more expensive then most of you would think.

So how long will it take, for that population of DIE-HARD, won't touch anything else then a TiVo... take to offset that cost?

And yes, you will have some that would choose one or the other, that are not in the "die-hard" category... but since they would choose one or another....... why not the one they already have...

So it does get back to... for those that MUST have and ONLY have a TiVo powered product, for what ever reason.... does it offset the costs to develop, build, and support a 2nd DVR platform.....

Does it make things more complicated, for extended features like DoD, and other future planned items.... to have them work in two different enviornments...

Ect....

So yes... they are willing to allow those go, that won't use the new equipment. They know they will not satisify all the "paying" customers... and as much as they would like to have them all....that is just not realistic.

Same reason why they are turning customers away, or making them to pay more up front for services... due to other risks and factors...


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## 2000voltz (Sep 21, 2007)

??? more than one company makes the HR-20s. sometimes bussiness ventures grow old and they must move on without each other. its really no different than deciding to stay at your current job or go somewhere else for more money.


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## Matt9876 (Oct 11, 2007)

If TiVo/Directv ever sell an MPEG4 TiVo that works with the new HD I will be one of the first in line to purchase it.

Matt


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Matt9876 said:


> If TiVo/Directv ever sell an MPEG4 TiVo that works with the new HD I will be one of the first in line to purchase it.
> 
> Matt


Regardless of cost? 
What if it was $1500 (little higher then the $1000 that I paid for my HR10-250 on day 1)

Regardless of features?
What if all the Series 3 features were disabled (Aka no access NetFlix or Amazon, no TiVo2Go)

Regardless of hackability?
What if it is like the R10, where you would have to do a physical hardware modification if you wanted to hack it


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## Matt9876 (Oct 11, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Regardless of cost?
> What if it was $1500 (little higher then the $1000 that I paid for my HR10-250 on day 1)
> 
> Regardless of features?
> ...


I own a R10 and the no hack thing really stinks also over $1000 would probably put it on hold till a price drop.

I'm a lifetime Tivo member and the old R10 just isn't getting the job done anymore.

Matt


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

I know that semantics are very important here, however I can't express my question in every single way, but the spirit of the question is honest and not muddled. Does DirecTV fund this site in any way shape or form, directly or indirectly?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Regardless of cost?
> What if it was $1500 (little higher then the $1000 that I paid for my HR10-250 on day 1)
> 
> Regardless of features?
> ...


No
Yes
Yes
However I'm not holding my breath.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jjohns said:


> I know that semantics are very important here, however I can't express my question in every single way, but the spirit of the question is honest and not muddled. Does DirecTV fund this site in any way shape or form, directly or indirectly?


Other then standard advertising they that purchase, like everone else..
No... they don't "fund" the site.

Unless you consider the CE program "funding".

--

As to your "symantics" comment... yes... they are very important..
And one thing you will find, is that there is a "LOT" to every question... especially on this topic.

That we have been hashing around for almost 2 years now.... (TiVo comming back to DirecTV)... and a year or so about Liberty and what it will mean...


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> What does he mean by "not competing with our customers?"


having the TiVo brand name plastered everywhere...that creates the confusion - was it a Directv service or TiVo? Who makes the decisions to provide additional features which in turn provide additional revenue? Which are you loyal to as a customer?

The ship has sailed....content providers are finding the lowest cost solution - the generic DVR, and getting a benefit of having it labeled as their DVR, without sharing profits. The content distributors now have control of the features they want to provide, and in the method that they deem appropriate for greatest return.

TiVo is in a tough place...not a "behind the scenes" manufacturer, and waited too long to enter the software licensing market (ie Comcast box w/TiVo software).

Maybe they will become the next generation Nielson ratings or an service company for advertisers??


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Other then standard advertising they that purchase, like everone else..
> No... they don't "fund" the site.
> 
> Unless you consider the CE program "funding".
> ...


Unless you consider the CE program "funding".

I gather the CE progam is not normal "funding" like advertising. How exactly does DirectTV provide monetary support to that program?


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

jjohns said:


> Does DirecTV fund this site in any way shape or form, directly or indirectly?


If you are really wondering why some support the Directv decision not to go to Tivo again - 
(1) the business reasons stated in this thread (cost/profits, control, brand loyalty), 
(2) some are not diehard fans of TiVo, 
(3) some believe that as a service provider, Directv can provide more to them without TiVo involvement. A better, stronger company can provide better service.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jjohns said:


> Unless you consider the CE program "funding".
> 
> I gather the CE progam is not normal "funding" like advertising. How exactly does DirectTV provide monetary support to that program?


There is no monetary support for the program:

The provided us the opportunity to download that... and participate in the discussions, and provide our feedback for the product.

To some of us "geeks" that could be thought of as "funding"...


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

jjohns said:


> DirecTV is in the business to make money. Or else they go out of business. That is a given. (At least to most reasonable thinking persons.) DirecTV provides content to customers. Many customers have Tivo boxes that can't get the MPEG-4 signal but sure would like to get (and pay) for all those new channels that DirecTV is beginning to provide. Does anyone really think that DirecTV is going to leave all those Tivo potential paying customers out in the cold? Why in the world would DirecTV not want every single breathing person to receive (and pay) for their services? Why wouldn't they make every effort to get the MPEG-4 signals to all those potential paying customers? $$$$$$?? Perhaps that is the reason for the noticable change of tone here.


You do realize there are maybe 100K HR10 only subs left and well over a million HD subs overall, right? If all 100K left it would be a one financial quarter "bump" that would be barely noticed. Sub growth overall that quarter might be only 100K instead of the normal 200K+ they have.

In other words the HR10 only people left aren't a concern in DirecTV's bottom line if they all decided to leave, which we know isn't the case. Maybe a few thousand die hards that are "Tivo or else!" and that's it. Again, worse case senario you lose 50-100K subs. Big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Also keep in mind that Tivo is losing 125K DirecTivo subs a quarter now. So the DirecTivo population is shrinking all the time. Yet at the same time each quarter DirecTV sub numbers go *UP* and churn is down. In otherword most of the 125K lost DirecTivo customers are not leaving DirecTV as it is.

One must keep this all in perspective and bringing Tivo back just doesn't make any sense financially.


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> You do realize there are maybe 100K HR10 only subs left and well over a million HD subs overall, right? If all 100K left it would be a one financial quarter "bump" that would be barely noticed. Sub growth overall that quarter might be only 100K instead of the normal 200K+ they have.
> 
> In other words the HR10 only people left aren't a concern in DirecTV's bottom line if they all decided to leave, which we know isn't the case. Maybe a few thousand die hards that are "Tivo or else!" and that's it. Again, worse case senario you lose 50-100K subs. Big deal in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> ...


Well I'm a D* or nothing else at this point (I don't see any other good competion) and I am only an SD sub not an HD one......


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## jburroughs (Jan 13, 2007)

Why not support a device that decodes DirecTV signals (contains access card and security equipment of receiver, possible modem for PPV purchases) into a signal compatible with a cable card.
This would allow cable card compatible Tivos and other cablecard devices work with DirecTV.

This will probably never happen but alas, I may dream!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

jburroughs said:


> Why not support a device that decodes DirecTV signals (contains access card and security equipment of receiver, possible modem for PPV purchases) into a signal compatible with a cable card.
> This would allow cable card compatible Tivos and other cablecard devices work with DirecTV.
> 
> This will probably never happen but alas, I may dream!


LOL. Cable doesn't even want to do this and only supports cable cards (barely) because the FCC forced them to and now they are moving to switched video which will render cable cards obsolete.


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## donshan (Jun 18, 2007)

Regardless of who makes the DVR, Tivo is inside to some extent already. Tivo owns essential DVR software patents that they license to others and collect revenues for the use of those software features. Tivo was the original inventor of the DVR and got the first patents that have been upheld in court. Others like E* tried to get around the Tivo patents and got sued.

The name Tivo may not appear on the box, but DirecTV has licensed a number of Tivo patents for their DVR software in all DVRs . See this link about the E* lawsuit and this quote about DirecTV:

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?site=cdn&doc_id=135629



> It appears that at least three other big operators -- DirecTV Group Inc. (NYSE: DTV - message board), Comcast Corp. (Nasdaq: CMCSA, CMCSK), and Cox Communications Inc. -- should be fairly insulated from future litigation with TiVo, as they all have DVR licensing deals in place.
> 
> Among that group, Comcast is nearing a New England deployment of Motorola Inc. (NYSE: MOT - message board) set-tops outfitted with TiVo software, and is in the process of porting TiVo to the Scientific Atlanta set-top platform.


Any change to increase the "Tivo like" software in D* DVRs should be possible by building on the existing Tivo licensing deal, especially if customers keep wanting those "Tivo" features and Liberty wants to make it happen too. D* will want to remain competitive with the cable DVRs.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

jburroughs said:


> Why not support a device that decodes DirecTV signals (contains access card and security equipment of receiver, possible modem for PPV purchases) into a signal compatible with a cable card.
> This would allow cable card compatible Tivos and other cablecard devices work with DirecTV.
> 
> This will probably never happen but alas, I may dream!


Well, I can't speak directly from the Tivo perspective, I have an HR20 and have been with DirecTV for around 15 years. Tivo could be named BoxX as far as I'm concerned, but I've learned to ignore the accusations that I'm a Tivo fan. It is strange, if you question some of DirecTV's motives you are automatically branded a Tivo guy. (Would that be stereotyping?)

Anyway, what I do have a problem with is the heavy proprietary-leaning steps that DirecTV seems to continually always walk up. I was involved with the Linux development in the early 90's and it irks me to see DirecTV move in the direction that you have to use "their" box and offer no other options while they are running their application on Linux, an "open source" operating system. Reminiscent of Ma Bell, GM, Microsoft and every other corporation that heads down this proprietary road. Money. Only money.

It didn't work with AT&T (Panasonic, etc), it didn't work with GM (Walmart), it didn't work with Windows (Linux) and it will not work with DirecTV. It is just a matter of time before an open source community such as MythTV or others working on it now, will successfully code and provide a box that can do everything the HR20 can do and in some areas better. Maybe by then, like the music industry is heading, HBO won't need a middle man to air it's signal; it will use it's own HBO-owned satellite and HBO-owned service provider. Like you said. One can only dream.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes... it has been speculated... rumor, based on a few comments by TiVo... and the fact that somewhere sometime John Malone, stated he liked TiVo.
> 
> Fuelled in turn by the announcement that the DTiVos that will get a software update in early 2008, to add 3 features.
> 
> But past that... everything is just speculation...


AND....

A moderators posting polls about whether or not you would trade your HR20 in for a TIVO.


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## skakusha (Sep 16, 2006)

jjohns said:


> Well, I can't speak directly from the Tivo perspective, I have an HR20 and have been with DirecTV for around 15 years. Tivo could be named BoxX as far as I'm concerned, but I've learned to ignore the accusations that I'm a Tivo fan. It is strange, if you question some of DirecTV's motives you are automatically branded a Tivo guy. (Would that be stereotyping?)
> 
> Anyway, what I do have a problem with is the heavy proprietary-leaning steps that DirecTV seems to continually always walk up. I was involved with the Linux development in the early 90's and it irks me to see DirecTV move in the direction that you have to use "their" box and offer no other options while they are running their application on Linux, an "open source" operating system. Reminiscent of Ma Bell, GM, Microsoft and every other corporation that heads down this proprietary road. Money. Only money.
> 
> It didn't work with AT&T (Panasonic, etc), it didn't work with GM (Walmart), it didn't work with Windows (Linux) and it will not work with DirecTV. It is just a matter of time before an open source community such as MythTV or others working on it now, will successfully code and provide a box that can do everything the HR20 can do and in some areas better. Maybe by then, like the music industry is heading, HBO won't need a middle man to air it's signal; it will use it's own HBO-owned satellite and HBO-owned service provider. Like you said. One can only dream.


I am curious about these points you bring up. As there are companies that can prove both sides of this argument.

Companies like Apple have done it, and pulled it of well. In many aspects this approach impacted them for years, and in the past few years has gone in their favor. Despite better portable music and video players they are the leader. I have also seen many colleagues argue that Windows OS has more issues than the Apple OS, because they do not control their hardware platform as Apple does.

In regards to your comments about HBO, I think the internet may be making a lot of companies nervous. Your HBO distribution scenario can be accomplished with the internet. I won't buy missed TV shows via Amazon or iTunes, when I can watch it for free online via networks web sites. Others have no problem paying for these items. Actually, DOD will help make the use of the internet for streaming and download more acceptable for the average consumer.

As technology changes, and broadband bandwidth increase, it will be interesting to see where things go.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

donshan said:


> Regardless of who makes the DVR, Tivo is inside to some extent already. Tivo owns essential DVR software patents that they license to others and collect revenues for the use of those software features. Tivo was the original inventor of the DVR and got the first patents that have been upheld in court. Others like E* tried to get around the Tivo patents and got sued.
> 
> The name Tivo may not appear on the box, but DirecTV has licensed a number of Tivo patents for their DVR software in all DVRs . See this link about the E* lawsuit and this quote about DirecTV:
> 
> ...


Wasn't Replay the first DVR out there?

Yes, TiVo does hold a lot of patents.... and they do get revenue for some of them... but E*'s case is still held up in court, so TiVo, Inc... hasn't gotten anything from it yet.

DirecTV has a "contract" in place with TiVo, that TiVo will not sue DirecTV...
But I don't know of any specific technology in their DVRs that is specifically "licensed" from TiVo.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Let's play make believe.

Instead of wishing that DIRECTV and TiVo would announce an agreement next year, let's wish that they made their announcement three years ago.

Their announcement might have looked like this. (Any place you see _Comcast_ in this article, just pretend it says _DIRECTV HR20_):

CNN 03/15/05 - Comcast TiVo by mid- to late 2006

Here is the update on that wish from yesterday. Again pretend that instead of _Comcast_, it says _DIRECTV HR20_:

TiVo On Comcast Delayed Yet Again

So if you got your wish a million or so of us with HR20's would still be waiting for the HR20?

Would there have been any point to launching the new satellites in the TiVo scenario?

I can only speak for myself but I am really happy that wish did not come true.

Let's fast forward to 2008. Let's assume that you get your wish and on March 15th of 2008 they make that first press release. As always, TiVo announces any new deal before the ink can even dry.

Then on October 10th, _*2009*_, they say it is "slightly delayed."

I think I understand your wish but if it is all right, tonight I am going to go home and watch my 46 HD channels on a real-life HR20.

And on Friday night, there may be another CE to download for the HR20. There have been updates almost weekly for months now: VOD, remote booking, etc.

The moral of the story: Be careful what you wish for...

- Craig


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## faust0068 (Mar 29, 2007)

Part of what is intersting on the whole Tivo D* relationship is that there are functions with Tivo that D* will no let Tivo activate, but out of the 4.6 million Tivo subscribers, only 1.6 are stand alone Tivo customers (balance Tivo/D*). Meaning that the features that make tivo special can not be used by the majority of there customer base. Maybe this will all change in the future when the sale goes through.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> AND....
> 
> A moderators posting polls about whether or not you would trade your HR20 in for a TIVO.


+1


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Let's play make believe.
> 
> Instead of wishing that DIRECTV and TiVo would announce an agreement next year, let's wish that they made their announcement three years ago.
> 
> ...


How can one possibly fault someone for wanting the box they bought to receive more stations and are willing to pay for them?


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## CTJon (Feb 5, 2007)

And if this forum existed xx years ago how many would have predicted that HD would never have their own box for the same reasons now quoted for never TIVO doing the next D* box. 
Based upon their current experience with their own line of DVR's D* may say it isn't worth it - not necessarily 6 months from now but at some point in the future - 2 years - 6 years. How many different DVR's does the market need.

How do we even know if the DVR issues isn't near at its peak and will soon head down. With DOD and other forms and as networks get bigger maybe everything will be available on demand. Why record Lost when you can order the episode whenever you want? This is a very changing and a technology in its infancy. 

Never say never. No is a short term only.


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## drisner (Jun 8, 2007)

I don't get why Tivo doesn't make a box that can take HD component input similar to the way it can take SD S-video/composite input.

I get that the encoder for HD would have to be fancier than the SD version, but it seems to be just a matter of scale (number of pixels per frame) rather than a completely new technology. I also get there would be some small loss of quality via the re-encoding, but it works well with SD, why not with HD?

Then they could sell a standalone Tivo box that would work with any HD system without cable cards just like their SD standalone box works with and SD system.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

drisner said:


> I don't get why Tivo doesn't make a box that can take HD component input similar to the way it can take SD S-video/composite input.
> 
> I get that the encoder for HD would have to be fancier than the SD version, but it seems to be just a matter of scale (number of pixels per frame) rather than a completely new technology. I also get there would be some small loss of quality via the re-encoding, but it works well with SD, why not with HD?
> 
> Then they could sell a standalone Tivo box that would work with any HD system without cable cards just like their SD standalone box works with and SD system.


$$$$... that "encoder" would not be cheap.

And that the fact that component is not secure.. HDCP.
Then you would aspects of people using this device, do basically duplicate "HIGHDEF"-DVD and other mediums.


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## drisner (Jun 8, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And that the fact that component is not secure.. HDCP.
> Then you would aspects of people using this device, do basically duplicate "HIGHDEF"-DVD and other mediums.


I can definitely seeing price being an issue.

The whole component not being "secure" is exactly why I suggested that would be the one to use.

The copying issue will be there no matter what device Tivo puts out. There is nothing the content owners can do to prevent copying. They can make it harder and they can add security "features" that make life harder on legitimate users, but they will never get rid of copying.

The right to record TV and view it at a different time has been well established in the courts.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

drisner said:


> I can definitely seeing price being an issue.
> 
> The whole component not being "secure" is exactly why I suggested that would be the one to use.
> 
> ...


Taking the "legal" aspects out of it, as we can have that debate for ever...

It would not be "cheap" to include a component encoder, that can do it live data stream... in any such device.

I still have not seen a product, that was cheap enough for a computer... let alone something for a consumer electronic device.


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## Fire407 (Jul 26, 2007)

drisner said:


> . I also get there would be some small loss of quality via the re-encoding, but it works well with SD, why not with HD?.


I think most people are OK with losing a little bit of quality with standard definition. DirecTV and cable companies have overcompressed the standard def channels for a long time and most people still feel that the channels are good enough. With HD, I think that any further compromises are too much. The HD picture should look as much like the original source as possible. There was a huge outcry when DirecTV reduced the resolution of HD channels to HD Lite. The HR20 works fine as a DVR now. If DirecTV added networking and dual live buffers, then there would be no reason to go back to Tivo.


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Wasn't Replay the first DVR out there?


The first TiVo units shipped on March 31, 1999, their 'Blue Moon' holiday. ReplayTV was not commercially available until November, 1999.


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## Matt9876 (Oct 11, 2007)

I'm dreaming here but here it goes.

Wish Directv would make a MPEG4 Tuner/video card to slip into a home computer at that point you could run any software interface for DVR functions etc.

Directv brand,Tivo brand or custom software

This should also lower the cost and make interactive services easy via internet.

Matt


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Taking the "legal" aspects out of it, as we can have that debate for ever...
> 
> It would not be "cheap" to include a component encoder, that can do it live data stream... in any such device.
> 
> I still have not seen a product, that was cheap enough for a computer... let alone something for a consumer electronic device.


I don't see how including "component encoder, that can do it live data stream" is any more complex than a box providing moving pictures live into your living room from a piece of aluminum on top of your house is.

Three years ago a Pioneer 50" plasma tv was $9000 in Best Buy. Now you can get it for $2000. Three years from now, that encoder wont be so unique either.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Wasn't Replay the first DVR out there?


I believe Tivo was actually first.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jjohns said:


> I don't see how including "component encoder, that can do it live data stream" is any more complex than a box providing moving pictures live into your living room from a piece of aluminum on top of your house is.
> 
> Three years ago a Pioneer 50" plasma tv was $9000 in Best Buy. Now you can get it for $2000. Three years from now, that encoder wont be so unique either.


Actually... IMHO... it is supply/demand.

There is not much demand by the consumer market for "encoders"... the VAST majority of the people out there just worry about the decoded image... and displaying it at home.

So until there is a viable market for it... the cost of HD quality encoders is goign to remain expensive... especially for equipment that has to do it REAL TIME.

So yes, with time... equipment/cost ect... does get cheaper... and there could be a day... but by then... who know what will be out there.


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> do you think TiVo is going to do it for free?


why, given that they created a cablecard cable HD DVR, would they not do it for free? Are you seriously suggesting Comcast coughed up money for Tivo to come up with the S3 HD DVR?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Sirshagg said:


> I believe Tivo was actually first.


Guess it was... (As noted above)...
I know we had that argument else where before too.... about symantics on who was first... either way...


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## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

I am so happy with my HR20 at this point there is no way I would go to a T* based HD receiver unless it had DLB and the HR20 still didnt. 

I am thinking that we would be at least 3 years away from something like that after the sale anyway. 

Right?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Let's play make believe.
> 
> Instead of wishing that DIRECTV and TiVo would announce an agreement next year, let's wish that they made their announcement three years ago.
> 
> ...


I wish for a D* HD Tivo capable of mpeg4 but for exactly the reasons you outlined above I know that I won't be getting one. A guy can still dream though 

More realistic is a hope that D* is looking at these threads (such as the one Earl started on the UI question) and is seriously considering how to make the HR20 so good we all forget about the Tivo, even if this means they buy the tech and integrate it.


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> More realistic is a hope that D* is looking at these threads (such as the one Earl started on the UI question) and is seriously considering how to make the HR20 so good we all forget about the Tivo, even if this means they buy the tech and integrate it.


Nicely stated. I believe that was the true purpose of the "Earl threads"....How would you make the HRxx the best DVR possible.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

jjohns said:


> I don't see how including "component encoder, that can do it live data stream" is any more complex than a box providing moving pictures live into your living room from a piece of aluminum on top of your house is.
> 
> Three years ago a Pioneer 50" plasma tv was $9000 in Best Buy. Now you can get it for $2000. Three years from now, that encoder wont be so unique either.


I don't think complex is the issue, it's cost. The D* DVR's simply record the stream D* sends (already encoded). I seem to recall many years ago this discussion that the encoders used by D* are a couple 100K. It would probably take some time for that to come down to a price acceptable in the DVR market.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

jjohns said:


> How can one possibly fault someone for wanting the box they bought to receive more stations and are willing to pay for them?


I am not faulting anyone. The HR10 hardware cannot receive MPEG4. It would be like wanting to convert a black and white TV to color. The HR10 that people bought won't ever receive MPEG4 HD. All you can do is start over with a new HD DVR.

In 2005, DIRECTV and Comcast each had choices to make about their next generation HD DVR's. Should they wait for an MPEG4 TiVo box or do it on their own?

Comcast is waiting.

DIRECTV did their own and a year later released the HR20.

I am happy that DIRECTV did not opt to wait for TiVo in 2005.

I would sooner have had my HR20 for the past year than still be waiting for TiVo.

Anyone who participates in the CE testing knows that TiVo does upgrades every so many months. In August, TiVo promised an upgrade for 2008.

The HR20 does not wait for TiVo. HR20 CE Updates come almost weekly.

- Craig


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## Spike (Jul 4, 2007)

Guys, I know very little about tivo, but here is my question. Could Tivo make a compatible unit to Directv without making their product specifically for Directv? That way they'd have a cable/sat. HD DVR box that could serve both venues that would have HD MPEG4 technology built in.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Spike said:


> Guys, I know very little about tivo, but here is my question. Could Tivo make a compatible unit to Directv without making their product specifically for Directv? That way they'd have a cable/sat. HD DVR box that could serve both venues that would have HD MPEG4 technology built in.


No they could not.

DirecTV is the owner/license of the access sercurity system that "protects" the DirecTV signal.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I am not faulting anyone. The HR10 hardware cannot receive MPEG4. It would be like wanting to convert a black and white TV to color. The HR10 that people bought won't ever receive MPEG4 HD. All you can do is start over with a new HD DVR.


Craig, that's pretty much what I would have said as well. Technology does not stand still and not every legacy product is compatible with newer technology. Regardless of whether the software were TiVo, DIRECTV, or Widget Enterprises, the HR10 doesn't have the necessary hardware to see the signals from the new satellites.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> ...More realistic is a hope that D* is looking at these threads (such as the one Earl started on the UI question) and is seriously considering how to make the HR20 so good we all forget about the Tivo, even if this means they buy the tech and integrate it.


That is exactly how I feel.

I don't care if I ever see the TiVo cartoon guy again.

I do want the HR20 to someday soon have the features that DIRECTV has promised.

Since DIRECTV licensed TiVo's patents, I wish DIRECTV would include more of our favorite TiVo features.

I don't care if it says TiVo or not. I would like the features my old Sony SAT-T60 had in 2001.

Regardless, the point of a receiver is what it can receive.

We are comparing a receiver that gets almost 50 great HD channels vs. a receiver that still does not exist.

- Craig


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> In 2005, DIRECTV and Comcast each had choices to make about whether to wait for an MPEG4 TiVo box.
> 
> Comcast is waiting.
> 
> DIRECTV did their own and a year later released the HR20.


In reality these are somewhat different scenarios. DirecTV was evaluating TiVo either taking the HR10-250 platform and adding MPEG-4 decoding to it, or building a Series 3 box geared toward DirecTV reception, something TiVo had quite a bit of experience with at the time. Comcast was evaluating refitting existing TiVo software onto boxes never designed for TiVo service, which seems to me to be a much bigger undertaking.



> I am happy that DIRECTV did not opt to wait for TiVo in 2005.
> 
> I would sooner have had my HR20 for the past year than still be waiting for TiVo.


Given that TiVo launched their CableCard based Series 3 around the same time as the HR20, I think it is likely that has DirecTV been their focus, TiVo could have had a product ready at a similar time. If you had asked me at the end of 2006, I would have strongly preferred to have a TiVo box, however, I have to say that at this point the HR20 is much better in some ways, and comparable in most others to what TiVo currently offers. I feel that they each have their strong points and weaknesses, and they are on a fairly equal footing at this point.



> Anyone who participates in the CE testing knows that TiVo does upgrades every so many months. In August, TiVo promised an upgrade for 2008.
> 
> The HR20 does not wait for TiVo. HR20 CE Updates come almost weekly.


It is no secret that TiVo has their own beta program, and I would bet that people getting their beta software get updates quite frequently as well. I believe that national releases are somewhat more frequent on the HR20.

However, the promised update to DirecTV DVRs using TiVo software for 2008 I believe is an update promised by DirecTV, not TiVo, as it contains features seen on non-DirecTV DVR TiVos for quite a while now.

I do not believe it is in any way fair to compare weekly CE releases of beta software to the extremely infrequent schedule for TiVo updates set by DirecTV itself. However, it does point out in general that even before the DirecTV-TiVo split, DirecTV DVRs were lagging behind in features from their standalone TiVo cousins, and that would be a concenr in a renewed relationship. One of the strongest points in favor of DirecTV continuing to use their own software is that they can focus specifically on features that best fit DirecTV's product suite and services, where TiVo has many types of customers to satisfy.


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

Peapod said:


> It is no secret that TiVo has their own beta program, and I would bet that people getting their beta software get updates quite frequently as well.


It occurred to me after posting this that there is at least one difference between these programs, in that the CE program is essentially an open beta, and anyone who knows about it can have access to new feature updates on a regular basis, at their own risk, whereas the TiVo beta program is a closed beta. That gives an edge in favor of the HR20, that I had not stated above.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Spike said:


> Guys, I know very little about tivo, but here is my question. Could Tivo make a compatible unit to Directv without making their product specifically for Directv? That way they'd have a cable/sat. HD DVR box that could serve both venues that would have HD MPEG4 technology built in.


They COULD if the FCC forced the sat. companies to allow independent boxes to tap into their system (like they did cable). I don't know why Dish/DTV continue to get a pass on this, since they provide nothing different than a cable company does as far as content goes.

I would love to have a stand-alone Tivo unit that works with DTV's core channels. I could do without VOD (Tivo has Amazon's library), music sharing (Tivo has Rhapsody now) etc etc. I would pay DTV for my television service, and Tivo would be my navigation box & access to broadband and other services. Hell, I'd even pay a fee to both Tivo AND DTV to have access to this independent box.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

The thing is, if the FCC did step in and open up the market, it would probably end up being the end of the highly subsidized hardware we have now. 

Personally, I don't miss the TiVo, and if it is your cup of tea, I get that. But unfortunately I don't see a lot of TiVo in the next three years at DIRECTV, they would have to start now and they aren't. And then... well I guess the question will be where will TiVo the company be in three years with declining income from DirecTivos.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Peapod said:


> It occurred to me after posting this that there is at least one difference between these programs, in that the CE program is essentially an open beta, and anyone who knows about it can have access to new feature updates on a regular basis, at their own risk, whereas the TiVo beta program is a closed beta. That gives an edge in favor of the HR20, that I had not stated above.


I could not have said this better.

With Earl's guidance, DIRECTV now has a zillion users who feel that they are "insiders." Users who feels like they are insiders are probably going to be pretty good advocates for your product.

We have had times where with literally a week or even 24 hour turn-around DIRECTV has responded to our requests. It is fun getting to be a part of something like that.

TiVo instead keeps us in the dark and makes promises for next year.

DIRECTV now has a 1000+ testers working for free, anxiously waiting for their next email saying they get to test the next release. Between us we probably do more real-life testing in one Friday night than a team of 30 professional testers could do in a month. We routinely do things to our HR20's that no sain developer could imagine!

I have never seen anything like it. Now that DIRECTV has really hit its stride we have averaged a CE a week since June.

The other thing that DIRECTV is doing is actively listening to us on this forum. Look at the:
Listing of Improvements to the HR20

The 29 in green are a direct result of our requests here. When the release notes come out they often use our exact wording.

Look how far the HR20 has come in 12 months. It may have been because they were forced to but for whatever reason DIRECTV has embraced their users to test their products like I have never seen before.

Someday I think that this will be a case study in Harvard Business Reveiw.

- Craig


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## skakusha (Sep 16, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> That is exactly how I feel.
> 
> I don't care if I ever see the TiVo cartoon guy again.
> 
> ...


 +1 Well said. I love the HD channels we have, regardless of the DVR we use. I have used Comcast's and Dish's HD DVR's, and I prefer the HR20, along with my friends and family.

In addition, the CE program has been very valuable in getting issues resolved. The voice we have via this forum to DTV is priceless. There have been a lot of new features and enhancements since the launch of the HR20. I also think that the CE program is fun, and keeps DTV in contact with there customer base. Who knows what new features and enhancements are yet to come.

More than 50 Series Links.


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> TiVo instead keeps us in the dark and makes promises for next year.


Isn't this really DirecTV keeping people in the dark and making promises for next year about software upgrades though? I think the biggest problem with the DirecTV/TiVo relationship as it previously existed was DirecTV users getting software updates on a significantly delayed schedule compared to standalone users, or never.

The positive here is that the DirecTV DVR program only serves one master, but I think it is unfair to put the blame on TiVo for features that have been available for DirecTV to make use of for years now. These features promised for next year could already have been available on series 2 TiVo based DirecTV DVRs, and the delays for them and any communication about updates is DirecTV's responsibility here, not TiVo. Or am I misunderstanding something?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Peapod said:


> I think it is unfair to put the blame on TiVo for features that have been available for DirecTV to make use of for years now.


What I think is unfair... is the universal opinion, that TiVo had no part in that decision....

While yes... DirecTV ultimately was the final decision, to not allow it...
None of us have all the factors involved in that decision...

What if TiVo was asking for more per-subscriber if those features were enabled... and that is the reason why we don't have it ?
What if to do it, and make it more Secure (MRV), DirecTV requested TiVo lock down the process more... as it is pretty common knowledge on how to get past some of the TiVo2Go features...


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

Good points.

I think what we can say is that whatever the reasons, the relationship as it previously existed has not worked out nearly as well for the end user as it has with the HR20. It really doesn't matter who is responsible for the delays. The existence of them is itself a weak point of the previous relationship with TiVo.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Peapod said:


> Good points.
> 
> I think what we can say is that whatever the reasons, the relationship as it previously existed has not worked out nearly as well for the end user as it has with the HR20. It really doesn't matter who is responsible for the delays. The existence of them is itself a weak point of the previous relationship with TiVo.


Very true ..


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

I think what seems to be ignored here is that the HR-20 is still working on being a good recording device, and at the same time adding other features it feels will add revenue and keep the masses content. Meanwhile, Tivo as a product is leaps and bounds ahead of the HR-20 for advanced search and record features. It has had a remote scheduling feature for years, the ability to access broadband content, and both Video and Music on Demand services. 

Needless to say, as a customer, I would love to have access to the best that DTV has to offer, and the best that a DVR can offer. Unfortunately, I don't get that opportunity. I put a significant amount of blame on Rupert Murdoch and his desire to scratch the back of another company he had interests in. 

Hopefully the new owners of DTV will find that it is in their best interest not to drive away a significant group of subscribers who feel strongly about the Tivo product.


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## donshan (Jun 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Wasn't Replay the first DVR out there?
> 
> Yes, TiVo does hold a lot of patents.... and they do get revenue for some of them... but E*'s case is still held up in court, so TiVo, Inc... hasn't gotten anything from it yet.
> 
> ...


You are right that Replay and Tivo hit the market about the same time, but Replay folded without the patents Tivo had. I remember going to Best Buy and seeing both Replay and Tivo, chose Tivo and it is still running in a BR on cable TV with a lifetime TIVO Guide subscription . I was a short term Tivo stockholder so I remember some of the literature I got, and I might add Tivo is a great product, but lousy investment. I sold my few shares at a loss!

I am no lawyer so only am trying to remember some of the details, but this Tivo link lists the main points:

http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/TIVO/144485376x0xS1193125-07-81563/1088825/filing.pdf

Tivo patents cover the functions of:

• simultaneous recording and playing to and from a hard drive such as playing one DVR recording while simultaneously recording others.

• the functions that enable DVRs to pause live TV as well as rewind, fast-forward, play, play faster, play slower, and play in reverse television signals cached by the DVR,

• random access while doing the above,

• others marked in bold in the quote below.

It seems to me all DVRs now in use include these functions. However, you are right, legal beagles think they find loopholes in Tivos general claims. This won't be settled until the E* appeal of their earlier court loss is final.



> Patents and Intellectual Property
> We have filed patent applications relating to many critical aspects of the design, functionality, and operation of TiVo products and services. We have been awarded approximately 102 foreign and domestic patents and have approximately 158 foreign and domestic patent applications pending. We have also filed patent applications related to technology that we may incorporate in future versions of our products
> and services. Patents we hold the rights to include:
> 
> ...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Hopefully the new owners of DTV will find that it is in their best interest not to drive away a significant group of subscribers who feel strongly about the Tivo product.


Drive them to where? As it is now, if HD is your thing then DIRECTV is the place to go. If you want that HD, you need an HR20 to get it. No matter what choice you make, you are going to be settling in some way shape or form. From what I can see, there is no "perfect" solution.

For me, DIRECTV is my content provider - hands down, no questions. To make the best use of that content it's the HR20 because it's the only thing with both HD and DVR that is available. So the choice is simple on what to get. What have I done about that? I've become quite active here because DIRECTV is listening to what we say and I'm doing my part to help improve the HR20 since that's all we got.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Peapod said:


> Isn't this really DirecTV keeping people in the dark and making promises for next year about software upgrades though?


I don't think so. Tivo is pretty secretive about what they are developing to the point that if someone even says they are in a beta program without even mentioning what is in it, Tivo kicks them out.

I spent a lot of time on tivocommunity and I got more and more the feeling that Tivo didn't listen to its customers. Very few suggestions ever got implemented.

Granted, the two tier dealings (DirecTV and Tivo) made it harder for the customer. So why would we want that again? Any DirecTV/Tivo box would have to be a set of features common to what BOTH companies want us to have. That has to be less than a TIVO SA or a DirecTV DVR by its very nature.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

kmill14 said:


> Meanwhile, Tivo as a product is leaps and bounds ahead of the HR-20 for advanced search and record features. It has had a remote scheduling feature for years, the ability to access broadband content, and both Video and Music on Demand services.


Which one must remember that 95+% of the population will never use these features. They set their season pass to Lost, Survivor and Dance with the Stars and they'll never do anything in the menu's again until next fall season.

Those are great features, don't get me wrong. But Joe Sixpack isn't even aware they exist let alone something he'll use.


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## Jolliec (Sep 1, 2006)

I really think the TiVo ship has sailed. Cablecard nightmares, poor sales, and high subscription fees, I would go so far as to say that they will be out of business within 2 yrs. Providers are simply resolving to the fact that they need to do their own thing, as D* did. And, personally, I am very glad that they did.

I do miss some of the features from both TiVo and ReplayTV (MRV mainly), but overall I am pleased with the direction D* is going.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm happy Tivo is OUT. HR20 is good now even though it has few things that I don't like but I still prefer Hr20 over Tivo anytime.


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

I was told months ago (and posted here) that DirecTV want's out of the DVR business. The HR-20 experience has been a nightmare for them. The product has been on the market for over a year and is still experiencing major problems.

I believe the hardware information has been released to a "third party" (TiVo?) for evaluation. 

I'm not a TiVo fan. Don't really like their interface at all, but someone needs to bring stability to the HR-20 since it's painfully obvious that the current crew does not have the competence to make it happen.


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

csgo said:


> ...someone needs to bring stability to the HR-20 since it's painfully obvious that the current crew does not have the competence to make it happen.


What stability problems are you referring to? I haven't experienced any major stability issues at all in many months, and I haven't seen reports of any major stability problems.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

csgo said:


> I was told months ago (and posted here) that DirecTV want's out of the DVR business. The HR-20 experience has been a nightmare for them.


Who told you this? I can say with certainty that no one has told me anything resembling that statement.


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## raw121 (Jul 18, 2007)

With the sale, does D* still have a stake in the company that developed the HR20 or does that stay with news corp?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

raw121 said:


> With the sale, does D* still have a stake in the company that developed the HR20 or does that stay with news corp?


The HR20 was completely developed by DirecTV...
So yes... they still have a stake it...


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## raw121 (Jul 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 was completely developed by DirecTV...
> So yes... they still have a stake it...


I thought some company called NDS or some other three letter name did the development. I guess I was wrong.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

raw121 said:


> I thought some company called NDS or some other three letter name did the development. I guess I was wrong.


NDS does the work for the R15...
The HR20 is done by DirecTV


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Which one must remember that 95+% of the population will never use these features. They set their season pass to Lost, Survivor and Dance with the Stars and they'll never do anything in the menu's again until next fall season.
> 
> Those are great features, don't get me wrong. But Joe Sixpack isn't even aware they exist let alone something he'll use.


Woudn't it suck if those 'season passes' didn't work as expected?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Woudn't it suck if those 'season passes' didn't work as expected?


It would suck if they didn't work as expected. For me, that hasn't been the case.


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Woudn't it suck if those 'season passes' didn't work as expected?


Disregarding anything that happened at the beginning of last season, when the box was still pretty spotty, the only issue I have seen was the decision of the box to record the first episode of Chuck Saturday instead of Monday, when I had no conflicts on Monday, and ended up having conflicts Saturday night. Other than that I have had no problems in a very long time with my 46 series links.


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## dvrblogger (Jan 11, 2005)

tkrandall said:


> "If there is one thing we are religious about, it's not to compete with our customers. TiVo failed with DirecTV because it didn't understand that,"
> 
> What does he mean by "not competing with our customers?" Not competing FOR their customers? Oh, please. It's not like the DirecTIVO deal was not just about the best deal around for getting a TIVO. They did not like TIVO selling stand alone units? Please. D* or any other company is not ever going to conquer the world and have it all. Besides, D* was the one (as far as I understand) that kept the DirecTIVO uinits from getting the latest functionality. Their best bet is to offer the best product and service and let the customers come based on that. Don't worry if TIVO sells stand alone units as well. That is very small minded and short sighted, IMHO
> 
> I guess McDonalds should not sell Coke because Coke is "competing for their customers" by selling in grocery stores and other fast food outlets.


You misunderstood the original comment. "Not competing with your customers" is hat TIVO never saw themselves as a service provider to cable or satellite but the holy grail of TV, Advertising and other innovative services. TIVO was so in love with ther own technology and UI that they refused to customize it for their partner, they develop advertising and ratings solutions which assume they are the service provider. It really boils down to whose customer is the consumer. Tivo was never humble enough to work as a vendor.


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## dvrblogger (Jan 11, 2005)

kmill14 said:


> I think what seems to be ignored here is that the HR-20 is still working on being a good recording device, and at the same time adding other features it feels will add revenue and keep the masses content. Meanwhile, Tivo as a product is leaps and bounds ahead of the HR-20 for advanced search and record features. It has had a remote scheduling feature for years, the ability to access broadband content, and both Video and Music on Demand services.
> 
> Needless to say, as a customer, I would love to have access to the best that DTV has to offer, and the best that a DVR can offer. Unfortunately, I don't get that opportunity. I put a significant amount of blame on Rupert Murdoch and his desire to scratch the back of another company he had interests in.
> 
> Hopefully the new owners of DTV will find that it is in their best interest not to drive away a significant group of subscribers who feel strongly about the Tivo product.


I disagree with the line Tivo is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone maybe cable. DIRECTV's integrated guide for VOD and 14 days of service while still displaying video in the guide/search is faster and much easier to find main stream TV content. Most of the add ons Tivo has deployed are second or third tier content and done more for the press release than providing any real value to customers.
D* has a long way to go to improve our ability to find all of the great content being broadcast every month but no one in the TV industry has done a better job (on the Set Top).


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Which one must remember that 95+% of the population will never use these features. They set their season pass to Lost, Survivor and Dance with the Stars and they'll never do anything in the menu's again until next fall season.
> 
> Those are great features, don't get me wrong. But Joe Sixpack isn't even aware they exist let alone something he'll use.


Sorry, but this is a completely unfounded statement with no facts to back it up. I know many 'Joe Sixpack's' with TiVo and all of them use Wishlists, Unbox downloads, etc.

Let's try and keep the %'s of who does what on a TiVo to what it actually is, nobody here has any clue what Joe Sixpack or his neighbor down the street does with their TiVo.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> I think what seems to be ignored here is that the HR-20 is still working on being a good recording device, and at the same time adding other features it feels will add revenue and keep the masses content. Meanwhile, Tivo as a product is leaps and bounds ahead of the HR-20 for advanced search and record features. It has had a remote scheduling feature for years, the ability to access broadband content, and both Video and Music on Demand services.
> 
> Needless to say, as a customer, I would love to have access to the best that DTV has to offer, and the best that a DVR can offer. Unfortunately, I don't get that opportunity. I put a significant amount of blame on Rupert Murdoch and his desire to scratch the back of another company he had interests in.
> 
> Hopefully the new owners of DTV will find that it is in their best interest not to drive away a significant group of subscribers who feel strongly about the Tivo product.


+1

While I want to support the HR20, I can't help but feel that its a 2nd rate DVR when compared with TiVo. I understand that their working on it, but how much so? I'm still having tons of issues with Trickplay because of a slow responsiveness to commands, caller ID that doesn't work, etc. I understand that the vast majority of this board feels that they are 'working on' these issues, but I really have to question that assertion when these issues still exist over a year later and they continue to roll-out new features to the box like VoD. As they add features to the box, is D* moving the resources that are there to correct those issues to these new features or are they increasing the amount of available resources to support the still existent issues?


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

IMHO, I believe that the move to attempt to control their signal by making the receiver proprietary is not unusual or even uncommon. With bandwidth expanding and memory becoming cheaper and cheaper, D* has to be scared to death about being cut out as these TV shows and movies are made available exponentially on the internet. HD recording PC cards are available now. Computer to TV interface has been around for years. Eventually, like the music recording industry, the middle man is not going to be relevant. D*'s desperate control decisions, like Gates and his Windows and IE Explorer before them, will not win them customers, it will cost them customers. I can't believe how many people don't want any competition in this market. I don't mean D* vs E*. I mean D* versus any competition.


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

Peapod said:


> What stability problems are you referring to? I haven't experienced any major stability issues at all in many months, and I haven't seen reports of any major stability problems.


I'm guessing you don't read the HR20 sub-forum.

Hundreds of reports of the HR20 failing to record programs. This happens to many people every day. Been going on for a very long time. A DVR that fails to record programs? That's a major stability problem in my view.

The HR20 can't keep time. Nearly 100% of all recording start late. That's a major stability problem in my view.

The channels I receive feature still doesn't work. This is a year after the statement that they were very close to fixing the problem.

Lock-ups, audio dropouts not suffered by other receivers, and pitiful guide data are just a few other examples.

All of the above are painfully well documented.


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Who told you this? I can say with certainty that no one has told me anything resembling that statement.


All you need to remember is that I told you! Time will tell and I think there may be some movement toward dumping the current project by the end of the year.

If you're close to the HR20 development team management I imagine that you already see hints of this.

It's well out of my area to know one way or the other for sure, but we both know that DTV considers the HR20 a huge blunder. They apparently don't have the talent to fix the problem. Dumping the project on a third party may be the only way out.

Like I said... time will tell for sure.


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

tiger2005 said:


> +1
> 
> While I want to support the HR20, I can't help but feel that its a 2nd rate DVR when compared with TiVo.


+1

once you get used to DLB's, its really tough to not have them anymore. It feels much more like a single tuner DVR.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tuff bob said:


> +1
> 
> once you get used to DLB's, its really tough to not have them anymore. It feels much more like a single tuner DVR.


-1 
Once you get used to watching nothing live... DLBs seems like a live tuner....

It all depends on how you use the system.
Do you use it like a DVR (emphasis on the R)... or do you use it as TWO receivers....


----------



## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

dvrblogger said:


> I disagree with the line Tivo is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone maybe cable. DIRECTV's integrated guide for VOD and 14 days of service while still displaying video in the guide/search is faster and much easier to find main stream TV content. Most of the add ons Tivo has deployed are second or third tier content and done more for the press release than providing any real value to customers.
> D* has a long way to go to improve our ability to find all of the great content being broadcast every month but no one in the TV industry has done a better job (on the Set Top).


dvrblogger, I don't have VOD...perhaps you do, but I am still waiting for that little feature. I disagree that most of the features Tivo adds have little real value. But even if they add little value to you, they may for me or others. The point I am trying to make is I want the ability to do all these things that are technically possible if I am so inclined.

People use things like Wishlist, Suggestions, advanced searching, Swivel Search, Dual Live Buffer and they appreciate that they can set their 'season passes' and never worry about it. I don't get the sense the majority of people are that confident with the HR-20, and they certainly don't have the same functionality available to them that they could.

DTV needs to know that they made a # of customers unhappy by ignoring a product many people feel very passionate about. At some point in time, cable companies will have the same # of HD channels (at least the ones people watch) as DTV. Will the customer experience be good enough with their current line of DVRs to keep people from leaving?


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

TiVo signed on with Comcast, yesterday.


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> -1
> Once you get used to watching nothing live... DLBs seems like a live tuner....
> 
> It all depends on how you use the system.
> Do you use it like a DVR (emphasis on the R)... or do you use it as TWO receivers....


Shouldn't that be the choice of the customer?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

csgo said:


> All you need to remember is that I told you! Time will tell and I think there may be some movement toward dumping the current project by the end of the year.
> 
> If you're close to the HR20 development team management I imagine that you already see hints of this.
> 
> ...


Considering I don't know you from Adam, I'd at least like to know the source even if it's your brother's third wife. Then I'd at least know that you're trying. As it is, you're just saying "Trust me." I will check with my sources, BTW, but you're right about one thing. Since I haven't seen even a hint of this from any of my sources it's likely not true.


----------



## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> -1
> Once you get used to watching nothing live... DLBs seems like a live tuner....
> 
> It all depends on how you use the system.
> Do you use it like a DVR (emphasis on the R)... or do you use it as TWO receivers....


You really don't watch anything live?
I'm sorry. I just can't believe an absurd statement like that.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I keep seeing this reference to "Swivel Search"

What the heck is that... and it sounds like a feature that was never available on the DirecTiVo platform, but something that is available in the latest SA models (or maybe even just the T3)

Well... they know there are some customers out there that are not happy... because you all think you are being ignored....

DirecTV knows they can not satisfy the 100+ million customers out there, that don't want to use OTA to receive all their channels.. that look at distribution carriers for their needs...

Nor are they targetting to satisfy 100% of them.

Plain and simple... they know people are going to go to other carriers, but they also know the opposite is true... as some people are going to leave those carriers and come to their service as well.

In all honest... and with all respect ment.

If you are more concerned about the Technology/DVR platform.
Switch NOW... as waiting is not going to change anything...

TiVo is not comming back to DirecTV... not now... not any time soon.
I have been saying that for the last two years... and I'll be saying it for the next two years... if not any longer.

If you don't want to listen to all the solid arguments that people have made... that is your choice.

If you want to hang onto over blown "off comments"... as threads of hope... that is your choice too...

DirecTV over the last 3 or four quarters has LOST over 150k subscribers a month... but they gain almost 200-250k more... for a NET GAIN... (I would have to pull up the reports for more accurate numbers, but they have NET LOST anyone in a long time).


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ed Campbell said:


> TiVo signed on with Comcast, yesterday.


TiVo signed with Comcast nearly 3 years ago...
It is just now (this week), that the long over-due software update... is out of the hands of COMCAST employees...

So let's see where it goes.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> -1
> Once you get used to watching nothing live... DLBs seems like a live tuner....
> 
> It all depends on how you use the system.
> Do you use it like a DVR (emphasis on the R)... or do you use it as TWO receivers....


Earl, This again goes to many users point that a DVR is not just for recording and watching later. You should be able to do BOTH since it has TWO tuners, thereby having the ability to act as TWO receivers.

I would argue that if you want a DVR to solely be a box where you record a show and then watch it later, then D* should just put every show they would broadcast on VoD and cease their transmissions. That way you can download what you want and watch it whenever. How many subscribers would D* have then?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jjohns said:


> You really don't watch anything live?
> I'm sorry. I just can't believe an absurd statement like that.


99% of my viewing in non-live time.
Even the Bears... I usually don't start watching till about an hour into the game... and often when I do get to watch it live.... I end up at some point having to pause it... (I always record it just in case).

We have a DVR for almost 8 years now..
And seriously.. our viewing habits for the shows we want to watch all recorded.

My wife works 3 nights a week till 9pm at night... and with our activities with our son, and other things... we often don't "relax" to later in evening... when we do mini-marathons for shows....

Not uncommon for us on a Sunday to watch 4 or 5 episodes of one show.

The main time things are watched "live"... is more of a background noise when we are doing other things...

So yes... seriously... I don't consider LIVE TV anymore...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

csgo said:


> Shouldn't that be the choice of the customer?


Sure... you have a choice.

Switch carriers to get the box you want...
Or get a second receiver.

You know the facts that the HR20 doesn't have DLB... the DVR+ platform hasn't had DLB since the R15 two years ago...

So yes.. .it is the choice of the customer.


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Considering I don't know you from Adam, I'd at least like to know the source even if it's your brother's third wife. Then I'd at least know that you're trying. As it is, you're just saying "Trust me." I will check with my sources, BTW, but you're right about one thing. Since I haven't seen even a hint of this from any of my sources it's likely not true.


If I was in a position to tell you a name I'd shout it out... believe me.

I invite you to investigate. Please do and I think you'll find some backup to what I posted.

The fact is that Liberty can not continue down the same road that News Corp. did. It's a dead end road.

The HR20 has good hardware. It was state-of-the-art at the time of development. The hardware was then intentionally crippled by removing features inherent in the chipset (dual live buffers is just one) and then further crippled by bad software. The hardware box can be saved. The current software is bad and needs to be dumped.

I believe just that is going to happen. There will be a cleaning of the house and the current HR20 development team may be looking for new jobs. At least I hope that's what happens... the customers deserve better.


----------



## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> DTV needs to know that they made a # of customers unhappy by ignoring a product many people feel very passionate about. At some point in time, cable companies will have the same # of HD channels (at least the ones people watch) as DTV. Will the customer experience be good enough with their current line of DVRs to keep people from leaving?


I think the main point here is that if D* had provided, or would provide, a product that was stable and feature laden then the TiVo talk would cease pretty quickly. Unfortunately they haven't delivered and that leaves us precisely where we are now.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

csgo said:


> All you need to remember is that I told you! Time will tell and I think there may be some movement toward dumping the current project by the end of the year.
> 
> If you're close to the HR20 development team management I imagine that you already see hints of this.
> 
> ...


How did I miss this one...
If you had any real source... or a clue on what is going on...

You would know that this has not a single fiber of truth to it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

csgo said:


> If I was in a position to tell you a name I'd shout it out... believe me.
> 
> I invite you to investigate. Please do and I think you'll find some backup to what I posted.
> 
> ...


I am in a position to do the reasearch on it...
And I can tell you again... there isn't a drop of truth to your statement...

I've proven my sources over time and time again...
So unless you want to pony up some hard evidence...

To me... your statements sound like your personal plan, and wishes... rather then anything based on any credible sources...


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> DirecTV knows they can not satisfy the 100+ million customers out there, that don't want to use OTA to receive all their channels.. that look at distribution carriers for their needs...


Come on Earl... keep it real, or at least reasonable.

Last count I saw was that DirecTV had between 12 - 15 million subscribers. Not "100+ million" by any stretch of the imagination.

The way you worded the comment for OTA is misleading. I have no idea how many DirecTV customers also have cable or OTA, but if it was 50% you could as easily say that 50% of the DirecTV customers don't want to use DirecTV for all their channels. Neither is a fair, reasonable or accurate statement.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

csgo said:


> Come on Earl... keep it real, or at least reasonable.
> 
> Last count I saw was that DirecTV had between 12 - 15 million subscribers. Not "100+ million" by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> The way you worded the comment for OTA is misleading. I have no idea how many DirecTV customers also have cable or OTA, but if it was 50% you could as easily say that 50% of the DirecTV customers don't want to use DirecTV for all their channels. Neither is a fair, reasonable or accurate statement.


100+ million "possible" customers... between all carriers... is what I was referring too... they are not out trying to satisfy all of them... (that is Dish, DirecTV, Cable-Co, ect).
They have a product... and they offer it out there... and enhance it to attract more customers... but they are not going to build it to target "everyone"

DirecTV currently (as of last quarter), 16.5 mil customers.

Edit: 
Now that I read your comment a second time.... it is kinda funny that you are asking "me" to keep it real..
When just a few posts ago... you stated that the HR20 was going to be discontinued, and changed made by years end....


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Thanks Earl .. Your words speak volumes to me and is consistent with what I have heard from others.

csgo, your source is wrong.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tiger2005 said:


> Sorry, but this is a completely unfounded statement with no facts to back it up. I know many 'Joe Sixpack's' with TiVo and all of them use Wishlists, Unbox downloads, etc.
> 
> Let's try and keep the %'s of who does what on a TiVo to what it actually is, nobody here has any clue what Joe Sixpack or his neighbor down the street does with their TiVo.


Well, the over dozen people that I know that have a Tivo, most of which are computer geeks, have no idea that any of that "advanced stuff" exists other then wishlists. Most just set it to record their programs and forget it.

Of course all that have DirecTV have converted to the HR20 now since you can't get the new HD channels on the Tivo. Content is king and always will be for the vast, vast majority of people.

I've asked many of my friends this question:

Stay with Tivo and go to Charter or stick with DirecTV and no Tivo.
All say the same thing...."Charter sucks".
Nuff said.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tiger2005 said:


> That way you can download what you want and watch it whenever. How many subscribers would D* have then?


Probably just as many... if not more...
As that would be the "Holy Grail" of entertainment content distribution.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

I'll state up front that I'd like to see a new, modern TiVo that worked with DirecTV. But I don't expect it, as there are several barriers that would have to be overcome.

1) Cost and revenue: TiVo's last deal with DirecTV was very one-sided. TiVo got something like $2/month per customer, and realized very little revenue for a very large effort. They will not accept a deal like that again, especially after being jilted by Murdoch. Then again, TiVo's management has a history of poor business judgment, so who knows?

2) Development cost/time: Safe to say that nothing has started yet, save maybe that TiVo has designed their current units so that some modular change would allow DirecTV capabilities. But even then D* would have specific requirements for additions/deletions. The idea of dropping TiVo software on existing HR20s is neither attractive nor is it likely to be cost-effective. The lengthy Comcast effort showed that porting can be harder than new design.

3) DirecTV's investment: DirecTV has made a substantial investment in an in-house STB engineering team, and going with TiVo would tend to marginalize this team and could even lead to it being disbanded. Certainly it would be highly demoralizing to the team and the best people would leave.

A TiVo deal would indicate that D* management was unconvinced that the group that did such a heroic job in fixing the horrid original HR20 is capable of a far better original design next time. The HR20 was near disaster for DirecTV. Without people like Earl and the CE groups providing testing and detailed feedback, it is doubtful that the HR20 could have been salvaged. The design of the HR21 may settle this question.

4) Content providers and DRM: TiVo's network functionality, especially in HD, is troubling to companies like Disney and Fox who want their content as locked up as possible. TiVo's reliance on open-source Linux and the likelihood of hacks to open up any storage encryption have got to be just as troubling.

So, in any event, we are going to be using the HR20/21 for some time to come. Heck, the _lawyers_ haven't even started yet.


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Considering I don't know you from Adam, I'd at least like to know the source even if it's your brother's third wife. Then I'd at least know that you're trying. As it is, you're just saying "Trust me." I will check with my sources, BTW, but you're right about one thing. Since I haven't seen even a hint of this from any of my sources it's likely not true.


This post is about as close to a source as I've seen mentioned by csgo. Apparently his buddy didn't get to be a part of the HR20 development team.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Probably just as many... if not more...
> As that would be the "Holy Grail" of entertainment content distribution.


Sorry, but no way, not at this point in time, most likely not ever. I'd drop them in a second, and I think millions of others would as well. IMO, you always seem to forget about the sports angle, Earl. How much demand would they have if they dropped LIVE sporting events? In affect, that's what you would be doing and that would NEVER fly in the US. The culture is just too based around sports.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tiger2005 said:


> Sorry, but no way, not at this point in time, most likely not ever. I'd drop them in a second, and I think millions of others would as well. IMO, you always seem to forget about the sports angle, Earl. How much demand would they have if they dropped LIVE sporting events? In affect, that's what you would be doing and that would NEVER fly in the US. The culture is just too based around sports.


And hence why the "model" will not be around anytime soon....


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I keep seeing this reference to "Swivel Search"
> 
> What the heck is that... and it sounds like a feature that was never available on the DirecTiVo platform, but something that is available in the latest SA models (or maybe even just the T3)


Swivel search is a feature that launched in May and is available on standalone series 2 and cable series 3 HD TiVos. Basically it allows you search and get matching shows and actors, then view details for a show and get a list of actors in it and 'swivel' to show a list of shows with that actor, which can then 'swivel' again to give a list of actors in another show. I can also do this with directors, producers and writers. It's kind of like being able to do an imdb search and get to a very different title where I started from, but still be just a few clicks away from recording or downloading what I have found. It's a really nice feature.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Peapod said:


> Swivel search is a feature that launched in May and is available on standalone series 2 and cable series 3 HD TiVos. Basically it allows you search and get matching shows and actors, then view details for a show and get a list of actors in it and 'swivel' to show a list of shows with that actor, which can then 'swivel' again to give a list of actors in another show. I can also do this with directors, producers and writers. It's kind of like being able to do an imdb search and get to a very different title where I started from, but still be just a few clicks away from recording or downloading what I have found. It's a really nice feature.


Ahh... so basically "metalinked" data results in the search...
Intresting.


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 100+ million "possible" customers... between all carriers... is what I was referring too... they are not out trying to satisfy all of them... (that is Dish, DirecTV, Cable-Co, ect).
> They have a product... and they offer it out there... and enhance it to attract more customers... but they are not going to build it to target "everyone"
> 
> DirecTV currently (as of last quarter), 16.5 mil customers.
> ...


Earl,

You need to get back to reality!

#1 You are the one that said 100+ million customers and then decided to revise that you really meants something else. Not me.

#2 Nowhere did I ever say that the HR20 was going to be discontinued. Please post where I said that.

#3 I said there may be some movement toward changes by years end. I never said things would be changed by years end. Please read what I write and not what you think it says.

*Stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.* A moderator should know better.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And hence why the "model" will not be around anytime soon....


Exactly. But that is basically what you are advocating when you say that the DVR is for non-live programming only and should be used as such.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

csgo said:


> Earl,
> 
> You need to get back to reality!
> 
> ...


#1: I didn't revise anything... I stated that 100+ million customer base out there... of possible customers... Do you think they develope all these features... just for the "current" customer base? They are constantly trying to find the next thing that can attack more customers.

For the sake of reference... here is my quote:


Earl Bonovich said:


> DirecTV knows they can not satisfy the 100+ million customers out there, that don't want to use OTA to receive all their channels.. that look at distribution carriers for their needs...
> 
> Nor are they targetting to satisfy 100% of them.


That is exactly what I said.... 100+ million customers out there... that don't use OTA to receive their channels... aka... anyone out there not using an antenna...
As anyone out there that dosen't use an antenna... is a potential customer for DirecTV.

#2 and #3: Here are you quotes... (see below)
So My apologizes... if I miss interpreted them...

Again... I have to laugh at your statement about me putting words in your mouth... as that is pot calling the kettle black... as that is what you are attempting to do with my statements.



csgo said:


> All you need to remember is that I told you! Time will tell and I think there may be some movement toward dumping the current project by the end of the year.
> 
> If you're close to the HR20 development team management I imagine that you already see hints of this.
> 
> ...





csgo said:


> I was told months ago (and posted here) that DirecTV want's out of the DVR business. The HR-20 experience has been a nightmare for them. The product has been on the market for over a year and is still experiencing major problems.
> 
> I believe the hardware information has been released to a "third party" (TiVo?) for evaluation.
> 
> I'm not a TiVo fan. Don't really like their interface at all, but someone needs to bring stability to the HR-20 since it's painfully obvious that the current crew does not have the competence to make it happen.





csgo said:


> If I was in a position to tell you a name I'd shout it out... believe me.
> 
> I invite you to investigate. Please do and I think you'll find some backup to what I posted.
> 
> ...


So yes, what is one to "gather" from your statements as such...
That is what you "said" (Technically typed)....


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tiger2005 said:


> Exactly. But that is basically what you are advocating when you say that the DVR is for non-live programming only and should be used as such.


Sorry... my apologizes, as that is not what I was "advocating"...

I do completely understand the desire for DLB with regards to people trying to watch multiple live sporting events.... I really do.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

What's really comical is when you read all the posts that state"I really like my HR20,it only needs(A Tivo feature(s) to make it better"!!.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> What's really comical is when you read all the posts that state"I really like my HR20,it only needs(A Tivo feature(s) to make it better"!!.


But on the flip side... you read the other threads about the TiVo love...

I love my TiVo... but it will be hard to give up (or I would like to have), X,Y,Z feature the HR20 has...

It goes both way... and shows, there will never be a "perfect" platform... for everyone...


----------



## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> #1: I didn't revise anything... I stated that 100+ million customer base out there... of possible customers... Do you think they develope all these features... just for the "current" customer base? They are constantly trying to find the next thing that can attack more customers.
> 
> For the sake of reference... here is my quote:
> 
> ...


OK, Earl, let me sum it up so you don't get confused.

The HR20 has good hardware. Terrible software. DirecTV did the software and apparently does not have the talent to fix their own screw-ups. They're apparently looking at a thrid party to take over the sofware development of the HR20.

Is this true? I don't know and am willing to admit it. What you need to admit is that you don't know either. These decsisions are made at the top. I can give my opinion that it would be foolish for DirecTV to not make some changes on the HR20 project. They need a viable HD (MPEG4) DVR and don't have one right now.

I never said that HR20 hardware would be discontinued. Read that again please!

I never said that changes would be made by the end of the year. Read that again as well.

And again I will say that nothing but time will tell for sure. For you to say you know the future of the project for certain is just wrong... the new management isn't even in place yet. A lot of things are going to change at DirecTV and there's probably nobody alive that knows all those answers at this point in time. We do know with 100% certainty that other options are being explored. Will they take those options? I don't know and you don't either.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But on the flip side... you read the other threads about the TiVo love...
> 
> I love my TiVo... but it will be hard to give up (or I would like to have), X,Y,Z feature the HR20 has...
> 
> It goes both way... and shows, there will never be a "perfect" platform... for everyone...


+1

I would prefer the features of a TiVo if I had to choose and that is how I voted in Earl's poll. But there are definitely features I like on the HR20 that a TiVo doesn't have. That is why I ask for D* to add some of TiVo's best, non-patented features, to make the HR20 box the best on the market. I couldn't care less if it has the name TiVo or D* on it. As long as it functions as it should and it has the best possible feature set, that is all that really matters.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

csgo said:


> The HR20 has good hardware. Terrible software.


What convinces you of this? I see some evidence that the software is burdened by the need to work around serious hardware design defects. Just curious why you think this is so obvious.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> What's really comical is when you read all the posts that state"I really like my HR20,it only needs(A Tivo feature(s) to make it better"!!.


Yes, and I will readily admit that a receiver with the best of both boxes would be nice to have. This is the very reason I've pushed for the past year for improvements to the HR20.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Okay... so you implied that those things may/will happen.
I apologize then...

But for this:



csgo said:


> What you need to admit is that you don't know either. These decsisions are made at the top.


Why should I lie?



> We do know with 100% certainty that other options are being explored. Will they take those options? I don't know and you don't either.


Actually... yes I do... and 100% certainty that other options are not being explored....

You don't want to believe me...... fine.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

kcmurphy88 said:


> What convinces you of this? I see some evidence that the software is burdened by the need to work around serious hardware design defects. Just curious why you think this is so obvious.


What "serious hardware design defects"....
What specifically is a hardware design defect that has been proven, that they have to work around?


----------



## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 99% of my viewing in non-live time.
> Even the Bears... I usually don't start watching till about an hour into the game... and often when I do get to watch it live.... I end up at some point having to pause it... (I always record it just in case).
> 
> We have a DVR for almost 8 years now..
> ...


I'd sure like to introduce you to my folks, then, because the way they use their HR10-250 and HR20-700 annoys the hell out of me! They ALWAYS watch everything live. I can never understand that, especially with as busy as they are (their youngest granddaughter and her mom, my sister, live with them, and the former occupies a lot of their time). Every single time I call over there, my mom would usually answer and yell, "We can't talk now. We're watching CSI!" or "We can't talk now. We're watching Dancing with the Stars." or one of a dozen other shows.

I always respond to them asking why they don't just TIVO (record) the show? Why not *pause* it when the phone rings? What's even stupider is that they *DO* record all the shows they watch, yet _*they still watch every one of them live!*_

Unbelievable!


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What "serious hardware design defects"....
> What specifically is a hardware design defect that has been proven, that they have to work around?


Earl--

I said that I infer these from what I see. The incredibly poor switching times in native mode, for example, tells me that there is a problem in switching output resolutions. Perhaps I was too charitable in assigning that to hardware.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> -1
> Once you get used to watching nothing live... DLBs seems like a live tuner....
> 
> It all depends on how you use the system.
> Do you use it like a DVR (emphasis on the R)... or do you use it as TWO receivers....


I agree 100+%, except where it comes to sports. I'm not really a sports fan so it does not affect me but I can absolutely understand the need for DLB when it comes to sports packages. What I find really amazing is that D* is catering to "sports freaks" (no offense intended) and they chopped this much needed feature out of their HD DVR without even an explaination.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> I agree 100+%, except where it comes to sports. I'm not really a sports fan so it does not affect me but I can absolutely understand the need for DLB when it comes to sports packages. What I find really amazing is that D* is catering to "sports freaks" (no offense intended) and they chopped this much needed feature out of their HD DVR without even an explaination.


Or other real-time activities. A major news event might have one wanting to be able to flip between CNN and Fox. I really haven't seen a good reason why this is resisted -- sure an hour-long buffer for recording something in-progress has some uses, but hardly as useful as DLB _plus_ a half-hour's grace on recording. Is this a hardware limitation?


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, and I will readily admit that a receiver with the best of both boxes would be nice to have. This is the very reason I've pushed for the past year for improvements to the HR20.


That's why I've always wondered why can't they take the best from both platform
s combine them and put it in the R15 and HR20.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

kcmurphy88 said:


> Or other real-time activities. A major news event might have one wanting to be able to flip between CNN and Fox. I really haven't seen a good reason why this is resisted -- sure an hour-long buffer for recording something in-progress has some uses, but hardly as useful as DLB _plus_ a half-hour's grace on recording. Is this a hardware limitation?


Doubtful that its hardware related given that it can already record two shows at once, while playing another. IMO its all software related and D* doesn't have the programming ability that it would take to implement without a significant amount of issues and they are more concerned with generating revenue streams (VoD) than adding useful features of this type. One can only hope that Liberty would alter the direction on this matter, but that is very doubtful.

Also, Earl has stated many times that its a 'design' decision made by D*.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tiger2005 said:


> Doubtful that its hardware related given that it can already record two shows at once. IMO its all software related and D* doesn't have the programming ability that it would take to implement without significant amount of issues and they are more concerned with generating revenue streams (VoD) than adding useful features of this type. One can only hope that Liberty would alter the direction on this matter, but that is very doubtful.
> 
> Also, Earl has stated many times that its a 'design' decision made by D*.


I am constantly amazed at everyone ripping on the "skills" of the developers...

You all do realize... that Liberty is going to be the parent/holding company of DirecTV Group...

The executive board of DirecTV group... isn't changing... Chase Carey was just renewed his contract for several more years....


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## csgo (Oct 15, 2006)

kcmurphy88 said:


> What convinces you of this? I see some evidence that the software is burdened by the need to work around serious hardware design defects. Just curious why you think this is so obvious.


The core hardware of the HR20 is an off the shelf chipset... nothing special. It's certainly possible that they have a harware conflict with some of the DTV proprietary hardware.

I've not personally heard of any specific hardware conflicts, but that certaily doesn't mean that they don't exist. They've made a couple of revisions to the hardware, but I was told that it was nothing major. Perhaps Earl has better access to that info? I don't see that newer hardware revisions are having fewer problems so I just don't get the feeling that there's a lot of hardware issues... specifically hardware conflicts.

I suspect, but don't know, that the revisions had more to do with reliability than any conflicts.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Actually... yes I do... and 100% certainty that other options are not being explored....
You don't want to believe me...... fine.[/QUOTE said:


> Your daddy the CEO?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jjohns said:


> Your daddy the CEO?


No... my daddy is dead.. (April 28, 2006)... but thanks for asking.

But still doesn't change the fact, that yes... I am 100% certain that other "options" are not be discussed.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Is this a hardware limitation?[/QUOTE said:


> I predict you will not get a straight answer to why they are not offering this feature.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am constantly amazed at everyone ripping on the "skills" of the developers...
> 
> You all do realize... that Liberty is going to be the parent/holding company of DirecTV Group...
> 
> The executive board of DirecTV group... isn't changing... Chase Carey was just renewed his contract for several more years....


Sorry, I probably didn't explain as fully as I should have. I don't know that I would consider my post 'ripping' on the developers. I was, more or less, saying that I don't think it can be done without a large number of issues occurring at the same time, hence more development time, hence less time spent on areas of revenue growth for D*. If it was an easy implementation/fix, I would've expected it to have been implemented by this point in the product's life. Perhaps I'm under the wrong impression, Earl but the reason it hasn't been implemented is because DLB would conflict with another 'feature' or w/e it may be that they are planning for future launch. In that case, it again would take them development time to work around those issues. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Sounds like this is turning into yet another debate about DLB ..


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Sounds like this is turning into yet another debate about DLB ..


DirecTV=Hatfields McCoys=Tivo. 
Henry Kissinger, the "Moderator".

It's much easier for the McCoys to tolorate and discern Henry's comments when they take into account that ol' Hank's been accepting gifts from the Hatfields.


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## Seismo (Jun 22, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Sounds like this is turning into yet another debate about DLB ..


You can never have enough of those!

Just kidding...but I still miss it every day.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

I like"what if ideas" so here's one.I have read several reports that it's going to become harder to add customers.So"what if" D* could hash out an agreement with Tivo to add features to the R15 and HR20?.Then D* could market their in house DVRs as their new and improved DVRs with software "enhanced by Tivo",which would be a "drawing card" for new subscribers in itself.Because if Tivo has anything,they do have a name that is recognized.Just a "what if idea".


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I've not seen any evidence that DIRECTV is having trouble getting customers of late. DIRECTV hasn't even done any advertising recently regarding their new HD channels. That, to me, seems like the Ace card for the near future.

Besides, it's the die-hards that are clamoring for TiVo .. new subscribers just want to record their shows and the HR20 will be the only device available to record in HD.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jjohns said:


> DirecTV=Hatfields McCoys=Tivo.
> Henry Kissinger, the "Moderator".
> 
> It's much easier for the McCoys to tolorate and discern Henry's comments when they take into account that ol' Hank's been accepting gifts from the Hatfields.


I must be dumb because I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say .. Yes, DIRECTV and TiVo have a fractured relationship. Perhaps that's the underlying reason why we have the situation we do today. Regardless of fault, why would Liberty's involvement change that existing situation?


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I've not seen any evidence that DIRECTV is having trouble getting customers of late. DIRECTV hasn't even done any advertising recently regarding their new HD channels. That, to me, seems like the Ace card for the near future.
> 
> Besides, it's the die-hards that are clamoring for TiVo .. new subscribers just want to record their shows and the HR20 will be the only device available to record in HD.


There are many "devices available to record in HD".


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jjohns said:


> There are many "devices available to record in HD".


Yes there are .. but in the context of recording via DIRECTV using an integrated box I believe that choice is a single receiver - the HR20.


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> So"what if" D* could hash out an agreement with Tivo to add features to the R15 and HR20?.


Are you talking about licensing the features, then DirecTV figuring out how to implement them? This would take quite a long time. DirecTV may already have licenses for features they have not implemented yet.

If you are talking about having TiVo figure out how to implement them, this would take even longer, as TiVo has no experience/knowledge with the R15 and/or HR20 software platforms. Look at how long it took TiVo to rewrite their software for Java for the Comcast Motorola boxes.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Yes there are .. but in the context of recording via DIRECTV using an integrated box I believe that choice is a single receiver - the HR20.


These types of corporate mindsets with their heavy-handed, deep-seated proprietary leanings are exactly what spawn hackers.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> I must be dumb because I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say .. Yes, DIRECTV and TiVo have a fractured relationship. Perhaps that's the underlying reason why we have the situation we do today. Regardless of fault, why would Liberty's involvement change that existing situation?


There was an article that stated that Mr.Malone likes Tivo.D* and Tivo relationship
might be fractured but at least they had the insight to sign an agreement with Tivo,because if they didn't?.They might have faced a lawsuit.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Peapod said:


> Are you talking about licensing the features, then DirecTV figuring out how to implement them? This would take quite a long time. DirecTV may already have licenses for features they have not implemented yet.
> 
> If you are talking about having TiVo figure out how to implement them, this would take even longer, as TiVo has no experience/knowledge with the R15 and/or HR20 software platforms. Look at how long it took TiVo to rewrite their software for Java for the Comcast Motorola boxes.


Good point, but they were starting from scratch at that point. Now that its been completed, they already have a basis from which to 'start' with a new provider and most likely that would decrease the amount of implementation time needed.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jjohns said:


> These types of corporate mindsets with their heavy-handed, deep-seated proprietary leanings are exactly what spawn hackers.


Which is a clear violation of the Terms of Service with DIRECTV ..

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P400042


> You may not copy, modify, or transfer, disseminate or publish the Software, or any copy thereof, in whole or in part. You may not reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or translate the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive the source code of the Software, except to the extent allowed under any applicable law.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> There was an article that stated that Mr.Malone likes Tivo.D* and Tivo relationship
> might be fractured but at least they had the insight to sign an agreement with Tivo,because if they didn't?.They might have faced a lawsuit.


True, and with that agreement in hand why should DIRECTV be inclined to change?


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> True, and with that agreement in hand why should DIRECTV be inclined to change?


And again, I lament TiVo's management as far as business acumen. They signed (or at least announced) that agreement the day before the jury ruled against E*. Kudos to D*'s lawyers -- I bet they got nice bonuses for that coup.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> True, and with that agreement in hand why should DIRECTV be inclined to change?


I understand the corporate "My way or the highway" creed.
What puzzles me are the non-D* (wink wink) employees that support it.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jjohns said:


> I understand the corporate "My way or the highway" creed.
> What puzzles me are the non-D* (wink wink) employees that support it.


Am I the "non-D* (wink wink) employee" to whom you refer? If you'll review my posting history over the past year, I think you'll find that I've played a nice role in the direction of the HR20 .. This is despite the fact that I am just a customer of the company and technically have zero say. The entire community here has found a way to be heard. Embracing a lost cause is certainly principled, but is unlikely to yield positive results.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Am I the "non-D* (wink wink) employee" to whom you refer? If you'll review my posting history over the past year, I think you'll find that I've played a nice role in the direction of the HR20 .. This is despite the fact that I am just a customer of the company and technically have zero say. The entire community here has found a way to be heard. Embracing a lost cause is certainly principled, but is unlikely to yield positive results.


Those certainly know who they are.

It's odd. In certain situations it always comes back around to, if you don't agree with us, you are a Tivo fan. Thus the "Embracing a lost cause is certainly principled, but is unlikely to yield positive results" comment. I suppose this refers to the Tivo donnybrook. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I could care less about Tivo. I am an open source fan. I am an anti-proprietary fan. I don't believe "My way or the highway." works and I don't believe it will work for DirecTV. Can't someone be independent for a change?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jjohns said:


> Can't someone be independent for a change?


Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that to get HD in an integrated box with DIRECTV, you need an HR20. If you want to be completely independent, then go with OTA and an open source server .. doesn't have the content I want so I'm not going there.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

I certainly understand the time and effort that this community has put in to try and right this ship. And it is to be commended. But there are also those of us that see things a little differently and please... it has nothing to do with Tivo. I promise. I'm not tied to any of these corporations and I genuinely could care less if they all went bankrupt tomorrow. These are inanimate, uncaring mega-everything giant corporations that care about one thing and one thing only. Money. Anyone who thinks differently, to give the benefit of the doubt, is just naive. If they could get their bug-introduced product tested quicker and fixed cheaper, they would dump this community in a heartbeat. Do you really think differently?


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

jjohns said:


> "My way or the highway." works and I don't believe it will work for DirecTV. Can't someone be independent for a change?


its very tough for big media companies to get out of that kind of mindset.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> True, and with that agreement in hand why should DIRECTV be inclined to change?


Well you wouldn't think they would,but Tivo's CEO was quoted that he was hoping it would with Liberty Media.Everything is speculation unless D* sees that
they are losing too many subscribers because of Tivo.But myself I don't see any change and by that I mean the ones who want to change will go to the HR20 and
the ones who don't will stay with their DirecTivos.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> But myself I don't see any change and by that I mean the ones who want to change will go to the HR20 and the ones who don't will stay with their DirecTivos.


Agreed, and if someone is still happy with Standard Definition, TiVo is still an option albeit via the secondary market.


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Agreed, and if someone is still happy with Standard Definition, TiVo is still an option albeit via the secondary market.


yup. my wife won't let me HD the bedroom because she hates the HR20 more than she likes HD.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

csgo said:


> OK, Earl, let me sum it up so you don't get confused.
> 
> The HR20 has good hardware. Terrible software. DirecTV did the software and apparently does not have the talent to fix their own screw-ups. They're apparently looking at a thrid party to take over the sofware development of the HR20.
> 
> ...


The way you said, seems like you never work in a corporate environment. If their development team is bad, they just go out and hire new ones. I'm sure they can fine the best one out there if they want it to. The option to outsource the hardware to 3rd party is not on the table, IMO, since this is proprietary piece of equipment.

In the beginning, I didn't like the software either and voiced my opinion about the HR20 development team's skill, but now they are getting much better and I like it a lot even though they still have some more work to do.

There is always trade offs in life since you have limited budget. For some, one thing is better than others. That's where priority comes in play. In D* point of view, they decide NOT to have DLB for the obvious reason: it's LOW on their priority list! And they are the ones who make the call, not you, not me. If you don't like their priority, find other services, period. For me. I like DLB but only when I have multi-room view option.

My advice to you, grow up!


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

I have not used the S3 Tivos, but unless a new tivo had the conflict resolution, one touch record, always watching tv, that I get now, I don't want a TiVo. Throw in space used meter as well.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

The DirecTiVos are awesome. If they offered a MPEG-4 capable unit at a comparable price I would be highly interested. The wife acceptance factor with the TiVo is exceptional -- just depends what you are accustomed to.

That said, the HR20 is pretty darn good. My _early_ experience with the R15 was not so good at all. In comparison to the _early_ R15 software, the HR20 is light-years ahead of where the R15 was when it initially rolled out.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> -1
> Once you get used to watching nothing live... DLBs seems like a live tuner....
> 
> It all depends on how you use the system.
> Do you use it like a DVR (emphasis on the R)... or do you use it as TWO receivers....


That is my feeling.. When I had DLB I maybe used them 2x a year, when I was goofing around.

I don't watch anything live.. I can watch two shows at the same time if I desired to do that, with or without DLB.

I want to video tape how some people use the DVRS that the demand here is so high for DLB on the HR20.

Part of me almost wants to say you are doing it wrong.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> $$$$... that "encoder" would not be cheap.
> 
> And that the fact that component is not secure.. HDCP.
> Then you would aspects of people using this device, do basically duplicate "HIGHDEF"-DVD and other mediums.


Not to mention that a DirecTV user would then also need to activate two HD receivers at additional monthly cost for each receiver (and possible additional one time upfront lease fees) in addition to the monthly cost of the Tivo service on the standalone Tivo box which will be at least another $13 per month unless you do a multi-year pre-pay plan.

The best Tivo service deal anywhere is DirecTVs unlimited number of Tivos on a single account that essentially costs $6 per month for the first Tivo and $5 per month for each additional Tivo (to cover the additional DirecTV receiver mirror charge).


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> I'd sure like to introduce you to my folks, then, because the way they use their HR10-250 and HR20-700 annoys the hell out of me! They ALWAYS watch everything live. I can never understand that, especially with as busy as they are (their youngest granddaughter and her mom, my sister, live with them, and the former occupies a lot of their time). Every single time I call over there, my mom would usually answer and yell, "We can't talk now. We're watching CSI!" or "We can't talk now. We're watching Dancing with the Stars." or one of a dozen other shows.
> 
> I always respond to them asking why they don't just TIVO (record) the show? Why not *pause* it when the phone rings? What's even stupider is that they *DO* record all the shows they watch, yet _*they still watch every one of them live!*_
> 
> Unbelievable!


Your parents are like a lot of people who have not managed to finagle control of their own lives away from the tv. I used to be a slave to the TV and have to plan my life around it. Once you learn to record everything and watch it when you want, you will experience total freedom from TV. You will have control of your life.

Problem is people are engrained with old habits, and it is sometimes hard to change. So they continue to let the TV dictate their life, or else they just settle for whatever inferior content is on at the time they have available to watch tv.


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

marksman said:


> That is my feeling.. When I had DLB I maybe used them 2x a year, when I was goofing around.
> 
> I don't watch anything live.. I can watch two shows at the same time if I desired to do that, with or without DLB.
> 
> ...


Let's say you want to watch NFL games on both CBS and Fox that are on at the same time, and for a variety of reasons you want to be done with both games around the time that they finish.

I do this actually with football games in-season on both Saturdays and Sundays (although this year with HD Red Zone things have changed on Sundays).

Here is how I used to do it with a TiVo:

1. Tune to CBS.
2. Press pause.
3. Press direction down.
4. Tune to Fox.
5. Press pause and wait about 10 minutes.

6. Watch game, FFing through commercials and some of the breaks between plays, until I get live or close to live.
7. Press pause.
8. Press direction down.
9. Repeat from step 6, until both games finish.

I pretty much avoid commercials throughout both games, except often during halftimes, when I usually take a break.

Now, here is how I do it using an HR20:

1. Tune to CBS.
2. Press record.
3. Tune to Fox.
4. Press record.
5. Press menu.
6. Press select.
7. Press direction down.
8. Press select.
9. Press pause and wait about 10 minutes.

10. Watch game, FFing/30SecSlipping through commercials and some of the breaks between plays, until I get live or close to live.
11. Press pause.
12. Press menu.
13. Press select.
14. Press direction down once or twice, depending on which game I need to switch to.
15. Press select.
16. Repeat from step 10, until both games finish.

17. Optionally, if games go over, I go to the guide and record the following showing, which involves a number of keypresses.
18. I also need to delete the recorded shows at their end, which involves a few keypresses.

Both initial setup and game watching require about twice the number of steps, and many more keypresses. For this type of viewing, TiVo functionality is significantly optimal to me, and although it's not the end of the world, it is a constant reminder to me that it was less of a hassle on my old box.

Am I doing it wrong? Do you or does anyone else have any thoughts on how to do it better, while still being close to live? (There are many reasons I want to be close to live, two of them are gamebreaks which spoil other game results, and phone calls and text messages from friends relating to game content).

What is watching 'live' anyway? I don't really consider what I do to be watching live, but dual live buffers seem to make it a lot easier.


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## RehabMan (Mar 11, 2007)

Peapod said:


> ...
> 
> Now, here is how I do it using an HR20:
> 
> ...


You might be able to eliminate step 11, the pause before switching games, because that will happen automatically as soon as you switch to the other game.


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

RehabMan said:


> You might be able to eliminate step 11, the pause before switching games, because that will happen automatically as soon as you switch to the other game.


Good point. I was trying to recall from memory, and I don't normally hit pause before switching to the other game.


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## jkast (Sep 4, 2007)

Just to add to the spice: My wife does not like remotes and is usually happy when I drive the TV at home (as long as I navigate to a show she wants to see). She did however learn to use the TiVo remote.... So I thought she would be very resistant to the HR20s we got 2 months ago.

I was wrong.

She tells me she finds the HR20 remote easier to use.... So much for the wife acceptance factor favoring TiVo in my home.

I still prefer the TiVo interface, but content is king and the HR20s have the content....


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Peapod said:


> Am I doing it wrong? Do you or does anyone else have any thoughts on how to do it better, while still being close to live? (There are many reasons I want to be close to live, two of them are gamebreaks which spoil other game results, and phone calls and text messages from friends relating to game content).
> 
> What is watching 'live' anyway? I don't really consider what I do to be watching live, but dual live buffers seem to make it a lot easier.


Once you have started playing both from the menu then I believe you can just use the Prev button to swap between the two from that point on. At least the 2 times I tried it that way it worked (long ago).


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## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Once you have started playing both from the menu then I believe you can just use the Prev button to swap between the two from that point on. At least the 2 times I tried it that way it worked (long ago).


Just tried that with ESPN and ESPN2. I started recording ESPN, tuned to ESPN2, started recording, via menu started watching ESPN, then via menu started watching ESPN2. When I hit Prev, it switched me to the live version of ESPN2. Essentially jumped forward a few minutes on the channel I was watching. No good.

This would be a GREAT way for things to work, if DirecTV is listening...hint hint.


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## aramus8 (Nov 21, 2006)

jjohns said:


> I understand the corporate "My way or the highway" creed.
> What puzzles me are the non-D* (wink wink) employees that support it.


I am tired of seeing post after post about Tivo being the good guys and D* being the mean old greedy corporation when it is actually the other way around. Tivo couldn't be satisfied with selling their boxes to D* at a reasonable profit. They also wanted a monthly fee for the box. A pretty big incentive for D* to build their own. Their business model was flawed from the start. Even on the regular Tivos, let's see, I buy the box, then pay you a monthly fee if I want it to work. To add insult to injury, a couple of years ago the geniuses at Tivo eliminated long distance toll free service for their boxes to call back in certain areas. My neighbor showed me his Tivo phone bill, $83. His smashed Tivo went in the dumpster. Tivo's problems are their own doing. In five years when you see a business headline that says "Tivo in Bankruptcy, Motorola Buys Patent Rights" or in ten years when you ask some one about Tivo and they reply "wasn't that one of those cute little radios?", it won't be D*'s fault. It will be the greed of the Tivo business model which will be to blame.


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## techrep (Sep 15, 2007)

aramus8 said:


> I am tired of seeing post after post about Tivo being the good guys and D* being the mean old greedy corporation when it is actually the other way around. Tivo couldn't be satisfied with selling their boxes to D* at a reasonable profit. They also wanted a monthly fee for the box. A pretty big incentive for D* to build their own. Their business model was flawed from the start. Even on the regular Tivos, let's see, I buy the box, then pay you a monthly fee if I want it to work. To add insult to injury, a couple of years ago the geniuses at Tivo eliminated long distance toll free service for their boxes to call back in certain areas. My neighbor showed me his Tivo phone bill, $83. His smashed Tivo went in the dumpster. Tivo's problems are their own doing. In five years when you see a business headline that says "Tivo in Bankruptcy, Motorola Buys Patent Rights" or in ten years when you ask some one about Tivo and they reply "wasn't that one of those cute little radios?", it won't be D*'s fault. It will be the greed of the Tivo business model which will be to blame.


Interesting prediction. I hope that you are wrong.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

aramus8 said:


> I am tired of seeing post after post about Tivo being the good guys and D* being the mean old greedy corporation when it is actually the other way around. Tivo couldn't be satisfied with selling their boxes to D* at a reasonable profit. They also wanted a monthly fee for the box. A pretty big incentive for D* to build their own. Their business model was flawed from the start. Even on the regular Tivos, let's see, I buy the box, then pay you a monthly fee if I want it to work. To add insult to injury, a couple of years ago the geniuses at Tivo eliminated long distance toll free service for their boxes to call back in certain areas. My neighbor showed me his Tivo phone bill, $83. His smashed Tivo went in the dumpster. Tivo's problems are their own doing. In five years when you see a business headline that says "Tivo in Bankruptcy, Motorola Buys Patent Rights" or in ten years when you ask some one about Tivo and they reply "wasn't that one of those cute little radios?", it won't be D*'s fault. It will be the greed of the Tivo business model which will be to blame.


IMHO, it seems not so much business model_ per se_ but lack of business acumen.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Well I tell you these discussions have intrigued me.So I plan to get a DirecTivo,R10
and put it right beside my R15.Because I want to see(I've never had Tivo)what all
this Tivo love is all about.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

tuff bob said:


> its very tough for big media companies to get out of that kind of mindset.


FioS. U-verse. The internet. Even cable. Sooner or later competition will have its way. Having been a D* customer uninterrupted since 1994, I have to say that I am going to be very glad to see the exit of Murdoch and his gang. They very nearly ruined DirecTV.

Oh, I don't expect a return to TiVo any time soon. Sad, but true. Murdoch and NDS have burned that bridge. But I do hope for a time when D* doesn't keep cutting service and raising costs, and instead focuses on quality.

SD once was lightly compressed 640x480i. Stunning picture. Now it DECOMPRESSES to very lossy 480x480i. SD Lite. Ask anyone who's been around for a while. Now, with mpeg4, everything going HD, and nearly two hundred transponder channels authorized, there's some hope that D* can become a quality service again. Murdoch would have trashed HD like they did SD.

With Murdoch gone, his incredibly paranoid fear that something might get copied (without him getting paid) will go with him, and we might get to use our home networks for video.

With Murdoch gone, the creative talent that shuns everything he touches might return.

Don't know about how Malone (once king of cable) will play it, but nearly anything will be better than the last 6 years.


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## mdernst (Dec 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are constantly trying to find the next thing that can *attack* more customers.


Now that spelling snafu was funny! :hurah:

(I assume you meant attract?)


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

_Sorry, I guess this should have been in this thread..._

When TiVo and Comcast announced that they had begun customer testing in New England, I bet you were wondering the same questions posed by Seeking Alpha:

Did the Comcast TiVo Really Launch This Week?

_



Until *anyone* can call up Comcast in New England and order service and until someone publicizes pricing, I'll assume this isn't a widespread launch - rather, it's more extended testing amongst Comcast "friendlies" as two sources have confided.

Click to expand...

_Also, here is that quote explaining that DIRECTV has licensed the TiVo patent portfolio for development in their receivers through 2010: TiVo - DIRECTV contract announcement 3/16/06:

TiVo Contract/Patent Licenses Extended Through 2010 
_



TiVo (TIVO) announced yesterday that they have extended their agreement with DirecTV Group (DTV) for three years. In addition to this, both parties have agreed to not assert patent rights against each other. The previous agreement was due to expire in 2007.

Click to expand...

 _
And here is one more article to consider:

TiVo: Can It Survive?

- Craig


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

jjohns said:


> I certainly understand the time and effort that this community has put in to try and right this ship. And it is to be commended. But there are also those of us that see things a little differently and please... it has nothing to do with Tivo. I promise. I'm not tied to any of these corporations and I genuinely could care less if they all went bankrupt tomorrow. These are inanimate, uncaring mega-everything giant corporations that care about one thing and one thing only. Money. Anyone who thinks differently, to give the benefit of the doubt, is just naive. If they could get their bug-introduced product tested quicker and fixed cheaper, they would dump this community in a heartbeat. Do you really think differently?


x2

Geez, isn't anyone going to respond to this post? Enough already with the noble Directv and its good intentions, blah, blah, blah. They used to call environmentalists tree-huggers. Well, I can understand hugging a tree much more than I can hugging a faceless monstrosity called a corporation. If you think guys like John Malone, and Rupert Murdoch before him, care anything about you and your life, you are a pretty sad lot. P&L statements are their Holy Grail, if that happens to include good customer service, competitive pricing, etc., it's only because it improves profits (though you have to wonder why many of these idiots running these large companies don't realize you can be a good corporate citizen and make money too).

Sure, the cutting edge people are a nice, well-meaning crowd, but they are being used only because Directv decided it was the cheapest way to go. It's not really that complicated. If they could have outsourced the cutting edge effort to India or China and saved even more, there would be no cutting edge...and no slobbering over Directv's noble intentions.

Enough with the Directv accolades, the "thank you, thank you" drivel about HD channels, etc. Directv is in business to make a buck, whatever that takes. If it meant tossing Earl into the Chicago River, they would do that, too.

Unless you are a high-level management type, blind allegiance to a global corporation makes about as much sense as the Weather Channel in HD.

It's now been more than a year since the HR20 popped out of its cocoon, and it's still raising the ire of Directv subscribers because it either doesn't work reliably or it can't match another DVR's ultra-loyal fan base.

No doubt in my mind, regardless of Earl's "stone cold lock" opinion, that there will be some DVR changes ahead for Directv. Does it include Tivo? I don't know. But they can't continue with these lame-o leftovers from the News Corp. regime.

Yeah, Chase Carey is still there. But he still has to do whatever John Malone and Greg Maffei tell him to do.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

kcmurphy88 said:


> SD once was lightly compressed 640x480i. Stunning picture. Now it DECOMPRESSES to very lossy 480x480i. SD Lite. Ask anyone who's been around for a while. Now, with mpeg4, everything going HD, and nearly two hundred transponder channels authorized, there's some hope that D* can become a quality service again. Murdoch would have trashed HD like they did SD.


Back in 94-96 D*'s PQ was stunning. But you can't blame Murdoch for killing SD PQ. That started in 97 and continued with SHVIA allowing DBS companies to provide local channels.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I guess you all have the answers you need then...
Should we just close the thread?
----

As much as you all want to take swings at my statements and credibility... I stand by what I said.

Time will only tell who is right... and who is wrong.

As much as many of you "think" you know what is going on... especially the "toss me in to the river"... you have no understanding of the bigger aspects of the CE program..

You see it from one aspect of it... but you don't know the entire "impact" of it. So see it as you like.... believe what you like. That is your choice..


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## techrep (Sep 15, 2007)

Tugboat said:


> x2
> 
> Geez, isn't anyone going to respond to this post? Enough already with the noble Directv and its good intentions, blah, blah, blah. They used to call environmentalists tree-huggers. Well, I can understand hugging a tree much more than I can hugging a faceless monstrosity called a corporation. If you think guys like John Malone, and Rupert Murdoch before him, care anything about you and your life, you are a pretty sad lot. P&L statements are their Holy Grail, if that happens to include good customer service, competitive pricing, etc., it's only because it improves profits (though you have to wonder why many of these idiots running these large companies don't realize you can be a good corporate citizen and make money too).
> 
> ...


It's more like we are mercenaries and the payoff is content. !devil12: shoulder :angel:


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I guess you all have the answers you need then...
> Should we just close the thread?
> ----
> 
> ...


Obviously, that was not meant literally, just as a metaphor for the idea that Directv will do whatever it needs to do to squeeze every penny they can. If that means cutting the CE process out of the loop, they will do it. Do you deny that?

Your hubris on this entire Directv thing from the start has been just amazing. Sure, you are privy to all the decisions being made in the Liberty Media back rooms, at the highest levels. Directv's exact future plans have been revealed to you, Earl, by the top executive management team.

This isn't about taking shots at you, it's about discussing someone who has been used by Directv as a means to an end, and feels compelled to defend them as a result of that entire process. Ever heard of the Stockholm Syndrome (albeit, this is a much less serious iteration)?

Do us all a favor, since you no doubt have them in your Outlook address book, post the cell phone numbers of Messrs. Carey, Malone and Maffei, so we can directly plug into the network ourselves.

Whatever morsels of information your handlers at Directv feed you doesn't necessarily make it true. There is this thing called disinformation, and the real power boys will use it in a nano-second to maintain their version of reality, until things change and they decide they don't need DBSTalk or the CE group and any more.

Yes, time will tell.


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## dmclone (Dec 8, 2006)

People that are so devoted to Tivo confuse me.

I had the SD Directivo unit a few years back and I liked it a lot. I decided that I wanted a HD DVR so I got the HR20 to replace it. For a few weeks it was hard to get used to using because I was so used to the Tivo interface. Now after a year, I can think of very little that I miss about Tivo. D* has only been doing this for a few years where Tivo has had twice as long to get it right. 

Is it that these Tivo customers are just so used to the interface that they are unwilling to change? Do these Tivo customers always buy the same brand of car so they don't have to change what side of the car the fuel tank is located?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Tugboat said:


> It's about discussing someone who has been used by Directv as a means to an end, and feels compelled to defend them as a result of that entire process.


I love how you all are inside my head... and have the depth and insight to see that I am just blind to the situation... and what this "relationship is".. and what it isn't.... That I am just a puppet... that I don't have a thought for myself...

And I am blindly being "used" by the big bad DirecTV machine...

And yes... I am taking those comments personally....


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

And any one who has come here to voice their negative opinion about Directv and its lousy HD-DVR hardware/software (no one knows for sure, it seems) takes it personally when they are treated as "outsiders" (or worse) because they don't have the benefit of a pipeline to Directv's key decision makers - as you undoubtedly do.

Sorry you take it personally, but you set yourself up for that by defending Directv to the hilt, and treating those with a different viewpoint as not "in the know." In reality, you may know when the next CE is coming down or what the next HD channel is going to be, but you don't REALLY know anything about the company's plans on the highest levels. I don't need to "get inside your head" to know that. Directv executive management would never divulge that data to someone who doesn't even work for the company. No way, no how.

Here's a simple question: How come Directv hasn't acknowledged in any public way that DBSTalk is part of its ongoing effort to fix/enable issues/features on the HR20 and other Directv machines? Just curious. You'd think they would gladly be blaring the PR trumpets, telling the world about this wonderful happening/relationship. No, they won't do that. It would make them look much too amateurish in trying to get their "flagship" product to work as advertised for the vast majority of end users/subscribers.

Judging by the ongoing problems (they are all documented here), that hasn't happened yet, more than a year after the HR20 hit the market.


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## techrep (Sep 15, 2007)

Tugboat said:


> Obviously, that was not meant literally, just as a metaphor for the idea that Directv will do whatever it needs to do to squeeze every penny they can. If that means cutting the CE process out of the loop, they will do it. Do you deny that?
> 
> Your hubris on this entire Directv thing from the start has been just amazing. Sure, you are privy to all the decisions being made in the Liberty Media back rooms, at the highest levels. Directv's exact future plans have been revealed to you, Earl, by the top executive management team.
> 
> ...


I don't know Earl from Adam but I have followed his threads and posts, on other forums, for years before coming here. Earl is not a "One Trick Pony" and has tested and commented objectively on many pieces of equipment. Think what you want but from what I have seen over the years, he just "follows the tech."


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

techrep said:


> I don't know Earl from Adam but I have followed his threads and posts, on other forums, for years before coming here. Earl is not a "One Trick Pony" and has tested and commented objectively on many pieces of equipment. Think what you want but from what I have seen over the years, he just "follows the tech."


Probably get kicked out or flamed, but I disagree. He accepts gifts (recievers, dvr's etc.) ahead of the general public, then comments on them. I believe human nature certainly would cause one not to bite the hand that feeds them.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

techrep said:


> I don't know Earl from Adam but I have followed his threads and posts, on other forums, for years before coming here. Earl is not a "One Trick Pony" and has tested and commented objectively on many pieces of equipment. Think what you want but from what I have seen over the years, he just "follows the tech."


+1

I don't always agree with Earl's viewpoints, actually I tend to disagree with him a lot of the time, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have any insight to DTV and their plans. I've always found Earl to be nothing more than someone that enjoys this hobby, like the rest of us. Also, I can attest to the fact that Earl has helped NUMEROUS people on this board fix problems related to software, set-up, etc. in their system. Just because Earl believes in DTV and what their path is the majority of the time, doesn't mean he's wrong or a bad guy.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Tugboat said:


> And any one who has come here to voice their negative opinion about Directv and its lousy HD-DVR hardware/software (no one knows for sure, it seems) takes it personally when they are treated as "outsiders" (or worse) because they don't have the benefit of a pipeline to Directv's key decision makers - as you undoubtedly do.
> 
> Sorry you take it personally, but you set yourself up for that by defending Directv to the hilt, and treating those with a different viewpoint as not "in the know." In reality, you may know when the next CE is coming down or what the next HD channel is going to be, but you don't REALLY know anything about the company's plans on the highest levels. I don't need to "get inside your head" to know that. Directv executive management would never divulge that data to someone who doesn't even work for the company. No way, no how.
> 
> ...


I stand by what I have stated.... and I'll leave it that...


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

jjohns said:


> Probably get kicked out or flamed, but I disagree. He accepts gifts (recievers, dvr's etc.) ahead of the general public, then comments on them. I believe human nature certainly would cause one not to bite the hand that feeds them.


I'm not so sure that's a plus. Having a HR20 in the very early days would not be considered positive IMO. Also I would bet I paid as much for my HR20 as Earl. At most it would be $20 more. Being an early adopter in the software age is not all its cracked up to be.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Tugboat,

Any one with an issue with a receiver should post them in their respective threads. They can and will get attention.

I notice that your threads tend to not be so much about improving a product as attacks on DIRECTV as a company or the moderators here:

STAY AWAY from DirecTV!!!!!!! 
Anyone believe HD is a big deal to most Americans? 

The attacks, especially the personal attacks do not help anyone. They just tend to drive people away.

- Craig


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Some of you people amaze me. Earl strikes me more as the person who would throw *himself* into the Chicago River if it meant creating a better experience for all users. But apparently all those efforts don't mean a thing to you, Tugboat, because no matter what efforts are made, it's all for naught when D* says "thanks for the help" and dumps the relationship. 
I haven't had a single problem with my D* experience, its equipment, or anything else. So I suppose, like Earl who also hasn't had problems (oh and got some free stuff to test - big whoop), that I could just ignore this forum and those who have problems, and go along my merry way. But I don't. 
Regardless of what you think about D*, TiVo, Liberty (or anyone else - i frankly could care less), this is a community of people seeking and providing solutions. 
To point to Earl as full of "hubris", and as someone "defending D* to the hilt", and providing "disinformation" by being spoon-fed by an evil corporation, is to miss the whole point of why we're here in the first place. Why don't you go call D* yourself and get the answers your seeking. The number's in the phone book. This forum doesn't appear to be the place that meets your needs satisfactorily.


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Personal attacks? I'd say people who voice their displeasure with Directv/HR20 have seen that side of the coin just as well, if not moreso.

As for posting about issues, I'd love to know the number of posts on DBSTalk about problems that have yet to be solved/resolved. 

Doesn't anyone on DBSTalk get tired of doing/posting the same things over, and over, and over here? Apparently not.

Oh, your two links to threads I started. The first one, I did not start (check it), and the other was nothing more than a headline and a link to a news story. In fact, I tried to "fix" the headline (to make it more accurate) using the Advanced Editing function, but it never worked.

So if you have other evidence that my threads (sorry, but I haven't really started many to be honest) are direct attacks on poor defenseless Directv or the moderators, please list them accurately. Neither of the two you posted are on point based on your statement.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

No - apparently not. We're still here trying to help people.



Tugboat said:


> As for posting about issues, I'd love to know the number of posts on DBSTalk about problems that have yet to be solved/resolved.
> 
> Doesn't anyone on DBSTalk get tired of doing/posting the same things over, and over, and over here? Apparently not.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Boy .. I get busy for a day and the heat is on. Maybe we can cycle this thread back around to TiVo and Liberty Media. Perhaps we can all take a short breather so that cooler heads can prevail.

So, please :backtotop


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Yeah, helping people. That's what DBSTalk is all about. Helping people. I completely forgot.

Funny, but I have dozens of gadgets, consumer electronics and other machines, from telephone systems to digital audio players, laptop computers to plasma television sets, all over this house. And none has ever (nor will ever) require the amount of help people seem to need using Directv's new DVR lineup. Oh, and that goes for the two R10s still chugging along, nary a missed recording, etc. And please, no one needs to report how their old DVR player didn't work, etc. I have seen that posted over and over again here in defense of the HR20. That dog won't hunt.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that for more than a year, people have to keep coming to DBSTalk to get help (and we're not taking usability tips) because their HR-20s/R-15s fail to fulfill their basic function - reliably recording video to view on their TV sets.

No, keep up the good work helping others, because with Directv's pathetic DVR+ product line, people definitely need it. And Directv can't seem to figure it out for itself.


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Boy .. I get busy for a day and the heat is on. Maybe we can cycle this thread back around to TiVo and Liberty Media. Perhaps we can all take a short breather so that cooler heads can prevail.
> 
> So, please :backtotop


All cool here. The discussion was about Tivo and Liberty Media. A guy posted something about how he heard Directv was going to dump the HR20 development on a third party, and he was attacked for even breathing such blasphemy.


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## djstough (Nov 27, 2006)

Tugboat said:


> Personal attacks? I'd say people who voice their displeasure with Directv/HR20 have seen that side of the coin just as well, if not moreso.


And this is no different than those of us that post that we haven't seen X issue, and get flamed and told that we are kow-towing to D*.

I have "free" equipment, too. I haven't paid for a reciever in years, that I recall. Does that mean I am not going to be critical? Absolutely not. Anyone who knows me, knows that I will be critical of anyone/anything that deserves criticism.

I personally have had a GREAT relationship with my three HR20's. It is a PITA to have to go to my daughter's room and deal with her Tivo (the last remaining one in my house.) That thing is slow, and antiquated. Now I'll get flamed for that...

Oh, well. There are people who think GM builds great cars and trucks. There are people who won't buy anything not Japanese. I don't think any of them are "wrong". They just have differing opinions on what is right for them.

Do I get upset that my car is recalled for some minor problem (or major problem)? No, I am glad that these things are identified and being corrected. If a product (any product) came out of the door perfect, why replace it? If the original Tivo was the end-all, why the Series 3? You mean they didn't build the first one to handle HD or Cablecards? What were they thinking? I bet they thought they'd get them out to the customers who wanted them, and adjust accordingly!


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I need to put on my fancy "moderator hat" for a minute, please forgive my while I adjust it "just right"...

_It's great to have an open forum for discussing what we like and dislike. Here at DBSTalk we encourage everyone to express his or her opinion, as long as it's an opinion, not any sort of personal attack. It's a personal opinion to be happy or unhappy with the service and hardware you're getting... it's an attack when you are intolerant of someone else's happiness or unhappiness.

I'm not singling anyone out here, I'm just saying let's not "go there."

I'm asking the kind people here... to be the kind people here. Let's not make it personal for anyone. There have been a lot of things said in this thread and there's a lot of good conversation to be had. Let's not get mean, ok? _

Sorry, mod hat's off now, I said my piece.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Tugboat said:


> Funny, but I have dozens of gadgets, consumer electronics and other machines, from telephone systems to digital audio players, laptop computers to plasma television sets, all over this house. And none has ever (nor will ever) require the amount of help people seem to need using Directv's new DVR lineup. .


Perhaps *you* haven't needed help but there are forums out there dedicated to every device known to man. There are several forums dedicated to just problems with televisions, cell phones, mp3 players of all brands. Heck there is an entire forum dedicated to nothing but remotes! Not to mention the widely used Tivo Community dedicated to helping people with Tivos. And hundreds of people flock to these forums every day for help, advice and community.

All I'm pointing out is that if you think only the HR20 users need help and advice you are sadly mistaken and ill informed.



> And please, no one needs to report how their old DVR player didn't work, etc. I have seen that posted over and over again here in defense of the HR20. That dog won't hunt.


Why won't it hunt? Is it blind?  Hmmmm, methinks you have never visited the Dish network forums or the Replay TV forums or the Tivo forums to see plenty of people with problems with all of those. To think otherwise is again being ill informed.


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## Tugboat (Jul 11, 2007)

Not on this level, not a chance. I regularly visit a headphone forum and other product forums, sure, but they aren't even in the same league as this one when it comes to problem threads with a single specific product. Not even close. You can compare it all you want to other forums, but no device has generated as many problems threads, software updates, etc. The HR20 is king of that hill.

Did I see somewhere that the next CE is coming soon (what number is this one? I gave up on the CE process months ago)? And what's the most important element? Why, stability, according to one poster on that "anticipation" thread. Stability fixes? More than a year later. The HR20 is alone at the top of the problem thread kingdom. Nothing comes close relative to the number of users/owners (I mean renters).

I have visited a forum for my plasma TV, to learn about a new firmware download. Twice.

I know, nothing is as complicated as the HR20. But that's no excuse.

Oh, and I have owned a, dare I say it, Tivo for 7 years (in one form or another). Guess how many times I have visited the Tivo Community Forum? Never.

No, the HR20/R15 duo is alone at the top.

And Liberty Media is hopefully going to do something about it (wanted to stay on topic).


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Yah know.....

If the HR20 was a set of headphones... yes, I would say this amount of discussion and issues... for something that does 1 thing... would be a lot... but regardless the HR20 and DVR's in general... are complex systems....

So yes.. this the nTH CE release... but so what? Who cares if they have 100 builds in between the national releases... as that is the goal... to get the unit even closer to perfection....

And if you think the HR20 is alone with issues...
Spend some time over in the TiVocommunity.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=51

The "premier" DVR... is having plenty of issues with their latest products... and their software.. .which they have been working on now for almost a decade...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Sorry to be the stinker on this one, but it's time to put this one to bed ..


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