# Can an HOA legally have provider-specific restrictions on satellite TV?



## Pink Jazz

I read somewhere there was one homeowner's association that did not allow DirecTV, only Dish Network or cable. 

I was wondering, is this legal? It seems very oppresive that there would be provider-specific restrictions on satellite TV service by the HOA. In our neighborhood, it seems most people use DirecTV, but I don't think there are any restrictions on a specific provider.


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## Drew2k

It's oppressive and depressing that some landlords and home owners associations don't know the rules.

Search the forum for OTARD and FCC and you should find some hits related to this.


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## trh

Google "FCC otard" and you'll see the link to the FCC page. There are a couple of Q&As discussing this.


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## Stewart Vernon

There could be a legitimate answer...

A HOA should not be able to restrict... But a landlord might, especially if your only location for line of sight for Dish would require installation in a non-exclusive use area...


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## Shades228

A HoA cannot stop an installation of a dish. However a HoA could require you to have a specific service no matter if you subscribe to another service.


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## trh

Shades228 said:


> However a HoA could require you to have a specific service no matter if you subscribe to another service.


they can???


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## dualsub2006

"trh" said:


> they can???


Yes, they can. Some HOA's include TV service in your monthly fees. Could be cable or satellite. If you want something else you can get it, but you'll still pay the same fee everyone else does.


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## kenglish

I've been paying a fee for Comcast Cable for many years, even though I never even have it connected. It started out at about $15 a month, even though the apartment manager told me that they only paid $9.00, bulk-rate. Now, it's gone up to $30.00 a month for basic service.

Sucks, don't it?


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## Davenlr

kenglish said:


> Sucks, don't it?


Yep, and the reason I would NEVER live in a HOA. The whole point in owning a house is doing what you want with it.


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## kenglish

As for the original question, I think the FCC ruled on this a few years back. 
You have always had the right to use TV antennas and satellite dishes, on your "controlled" part of the property, using whatever service provided you with whatever channels you want.
The FCC also ruled that wiring could not be "exclusive" to any one provider, and your preferred service provider could use the wiring to your unit for their feeds. 

One of our apartments actually has a D* dish in the flower bed (not OTARD), and has a wire run to the Comcast demarc, where it runs in to their unit. I'm not even sure which apartment it belongs to....maybe someone on the other side of the building. (I think I'll take another look).


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## Shades228

kenglish said:


> I've been paying a fee for Comcast Cable for many years, even though I never even have it connected. It started out at about $15 a month, even though the apartment manager told me that they only paid $9.00, bulk-rate. Now, it's gone up to $30.00 a month for basic service.
> 
> Sucks, don't it?


Get on your HoA board and get rid of it or negotiate for better terms.


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## AntAltMike

Shades228 said:


> Get on your HoA board and get rid of it or negotiate for better terms.


Not a chance of that succeeding, since the policy benefits the majority.


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## James Long

Shades228 said:


> A HoA cannot stop an installation of a dish.


Yes, they can.

If the dish is not in an exclusive use area it can easily be prevented. If the installation requires putting a hole through the outside of the building (where the outside walls are common property) it can be prevented. If there are historic or safety reasons an installation can be prevented.

OTARD is not carte blanche allowing any install.



kenglish said:


> The FCC also ruled that wiring could not be "exclusive" to any one provider, and your preferred service provider could use the wiring to your unit for their feeds.


The question would be where is the dish and how does the wiring get to the demark.

Imagine a large condominium with cable service provided from a basement cable connection. A cable is fed up to each floor to a distribution closet on each floor, then run out to each unit. The units may not even have an exclusive feed from their floor's distribution closet. This topology would be possible in a building where access is not controlled per unit (everybody pays, everybody receives) or where access is controlled by disconnecting cables at the unit. Regardless of where the disconnect point is there is no OTARD protected path to that disconnect point. If there is no exclusive use area to put the dish, being able to tap into the wiring at a common point is moot.

What we are seeing in some places are common dishes aimed at one satellite providers satellites with that common feed being distributed to units. The presence of such a distribution allows residents to subscribe to that provider's service. The existence of the common feed does not prevent the installation of individual dishes _if needed_ but could be used to prevent the installation of unneeded individual dishes. For example, an apartment complex that installed dishes aimed at DISH satellites and distributed that signal could ban the installation of individual DISH dishes but could not ban the installation of individual DirecTV dishes (within the normal OTARD permitted use areas). If a DISH subscriber needed a feed that was not part of the distribution (for HD or international service, for example) that dish could not be banned within the normal OTARD permitted use areas.

Providing a common DISH feed does not require the provision of a common DirecTV feed. Providing one company's feed does not expand OTARD protection to any installation outside the exclusive use area for that customer.

Exact enforcement of the protection of OTARD would require looking at the exact situation in each proposed install. Generally speaking, if there is an exclusive use area available where an antenna can be installed entirely within that exclusive use area and the antenna is needed for reception that antenna would be protected. But don't read OTARD as carte blanche. There are too many limits to OTARD to assume that "anything goes".

For more information:
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule


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## Shades228

James Long said:


> Yes, they can.
> 
> If the dish is not in an exclusive use area it can easily be prevented. If the installation requires putting a hole through the outside of the building (where the outside walls are common property) it can be prevented. If there are historic or safety reasons an installation can be prevented.


Your speaking of either apartment/condo or town homes which usually have a board of directors and not a HoA specifically. So if it was a HoA that was in charge of a condominium association then yes your response would be correct.

Given the manner of the OP's post where he designated neighborhood this implies single family homes.

Historic issues are not due to HoA but they are due to civil statutes placed by the township that the people live in which would superceed any HoA or Board of Director rules regardless.


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## P Smith

Pink Jazz said:


> I read somewhere there was one homeowner's association that did not allow DirecTV, only Dish Network or cable.
> 
> I was wondering, is this legal? It seems very oppresive that there would be provider-specific restrictions on satellite TV service by the HOA. In our neighborhood, it seems most people use DirecTV, but I don't think there are any restrictions on a specific provider.


An answer to the precisely formulated question: no. If they do, that would be illegal.

All other circumstances should be presented to further discussion.


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## James Long

Shades228 said:


> Your speaking of either apartment/condo or town homes which usually have a board of directors and not a HoA specifically. So if it was a HoA that was in charge of a condominium association then yes your response would be correct.


The point remains correct ... OTARD is not carte blanche. Restrictions on satellite dishes remain legal. OTARD does not provide complete protection against being told you cannot have an antenna.

HoAs take many forms. Some try so hard to keep a neighborhood "uniform" so people don't have to see "ugly" out their windows that they do attempt to block dish installations and severely limit exclusive use areas. I would not willingly choose to live in such a restrictive environment but some who do choose to be there because they like some of the restrictions or at least the "clean neighborhood" that results from those restrictions. Until they find out that the restrictions affect them in some unexpected way.


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## MysteryMan

Pink Jazz said:


> I read somewhere there was one homeowner's association that did not allow DirecTV, only Dish Network or cable.
> 
> I was wondering, is this legal? It seems very oppresive that there would be provider-specific restrictions on satellite TV service by the HOA. In our neighborhood, it seems most people use DirecTV, but I don't think there are any restrictions on a specific provider.


HOA: Housing Oppression Association


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## Chappy316

I would reference (under DIRECTV General Discussion > DIRECTV Installation/MDU Discussion > The Battle is on! My landlord now demands I remove my dish) if you want to read about the horrors of this topic. Sorry for no link, first post...

That thread is actually the reason I signed up for an account. (Makes getting questions answered much easier.)

Good luck!


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## Blurayfan

Chappy316 said:


> I would reference (under DIRECTV General Discussion > DIRECTV Installation/MDU Discussion > The Battle is on! My landlord now demands I remove my dish) if you want to read about the horrors of this topic. Sorry for no link, first post...
> 
> That thread is actually the reason I signed up for an account. (Makes getting questions answered much easier.)
> 
> Good luck!


The Battle is on! My landlord now demands I remove my dish


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## trh

That link contains some relevant info, but it takes place in an apartment complex, not an HOA.


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## scooper

HOA / Apartment management - terms are interchangeable in this context.

The salient point is that they cannot prohibit an occupant from using another service, so long as the antenna is on his exclusive use area and subject to other constraints as listed in OTARD. However, that doesn't mean the occupant gets out of paying for the supplied service either.


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## HDSC

James's comments are on the money.

I am on the BOD of a 96 unit Condo Association. Cable is furnished as part of the Regime fees. I have not always been on the Board. I have DTV at my other house and I like the Nascar in-car feeds during the races, so I put a dish up to bring my receiver and use occasionally. I installed on my limited common area outside. Of course the moaning began. 

1. I did not penetrate any portion of the wall because they have concrete and rebar which could cause the 'building to fall down" PUN INTENDED. I mounted pole&dish in a 5gallon bucket filled with concrete on my 3rd floor deck.
2. I own the sliding glass doors so I was able to penetrate the coax by drilling in the frame then I was home free.
3. One of the BOD members knocked on my door and demanded to see my set-up to insure I had not violated any policy. I advised him to KMA.
4. That's why I am on the BOD's now. I am finishing my 3rd (2) year term this month.


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## Laxguy

HDSC said:


> James's comments are on the money.
> 
> I am on the BOD of a 96 unit Condo Association. Cable is furnished as part of the Regime fees. I have not always been on the Board. I have DTV at my other house and I like the Nascar in-car feeds during the races, so I put a dish up to bring my receiver and use occasionally. I installed on my limited common area outside. Of course the moaning began.
> 
> 1. I did not penetrate any portion of the wall because they have concrete and rebar which could cause the 'building to fall down" PUN INTENDED. I mounted pole&dish in a 5gallon bucket filled with concrete on my 3rd floor deck.
> 2. I own the sliding glass doors so I was able to penetrate the coax by drilling in the frame then I was home free.
> 3. One of the BOD members knocked on my door and demanded to see my set-up to insure I had not violated any policy. I advised him to KMA.
> 4. That's why I am on the BOD's now. I am finishing my 3rd (2) year term this month.


Excellent! I would have loved to have seen the expression on the intrusive man's face when you told him to kiss off.

Curious: Would a strong expoxy on the wall been an option? - Or would the extra weight of the dish and mount cause undue stress on the concrete and rebar? :nono2:


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## P Smith

trh said:


> That link contains some relevant info, but it takes place in an apartment complex, not an HOA.


OTARD do cover both places same way. With difference in physical location of your equipment it would be same as legality arise.


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## HDSC

Laxguy said:


> Excellent! I would have loved to have seen the expression on the intrusive man's face when you told him to kiss off.
> 
> Curious: Would a strong expoxy on the wall been an option? - Or would the extra weight of the dish and mount cause undue stress on the concrete and rebar? :nono2:


Well that is a good question! We do have a Professional Management Company and I know the first thing they would do is request a copy of the engineering study done to ask PSI coverage. Of course the cost most of the time out weighs the desire. But we do have many Professionals that own here and they do have the resources. I try to use good ole common sense on issues brought up for a vote or discussion..


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## James Long

Laxguy said:


> Curious: Would a strong expoxy on the wall been an option? - Or would the extra weight of the dish and mount cause undue stress on the concrete and rebar? :nono2:


That would raise the separate question of damage to the wall. If the wall could not be easily restored to the preinstalled state I would not expect the installation method to be approved.


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## Laxguy

James Long said:


> That would raise the separate question of damage to the wall. If the wall could not be easily restored to the preinstalled state I would not expect the installation method to be approved.


Of course. I was anticipating a concrete surface, rough enough to get a grip on, but, yes, a lot of questions may get raised. Like the old West, shoot the glue first and ask questions later....


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## bgrpph

interesting discussion- otard applies only to 1 meter dishes and smaller(except in alaska where it applies to any size dish)- 
In Honolulu DirectTV requires a 1.2 meter dish for service. Technically a Hawaii HOA could prohibit dishes over 1 meter which would restrict satellite service to only Dish network which use 2 one-meter dish- 
our HOA just recently approved change in our rules to allow dishes up to 50" so as not to restrict usage of provider.


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## NR4P

All HOA's aren't bad. I live in one and I have multiple antennas. Some folks have basketball courts, others have volleyball courts and tennis courts. Just pointing out that there are some very reasonable places with minimal rules.

We own our roads so that's why the HOA makes sense. We decide who comes in. You can't do that on public roads. And in today's current news with foreclosures, we've forced a bank or two to keep the property up from weeds etc. Sometimes its good.

But back to the original OP question, if its a true HOA and you own your roof and walls, then OTARD means you can put up the TV antenna or Sat dish up to 1 meter in length. If its shared, you may have issues and then I'm surprised its not a Condo Assoc.


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## satradfan

I live in a condo with a limited use patio where I can place a satellite dish. I have lived here for 3 years and have had both a Directv and Dish network dish out there since moving.

I just received a form from the HOA and HOA attorney that they want me to fill out in order to get "pre-approval" for my dishes. They said they are now trying to enforce satellite dish rules. But the letter also states that the HOA has made a decision to limit it to one dish only and want me to remove one.

The FCC rules clearly state that they cannot limit the number of dishes.

*Q: Can a restriction limit the number of antennas that may be installed at a particular location?*

*A:*_The Commission's rule covers the antennas necessary to receive service. Therefore, a local rule may not, for example, allow only one antenna if more than one antenna is necessary to receive the desired service. _​
However, the HOA did install a common Directv satellite dish for the units to use, but the lowest base package is through a 3rd party and is $65 per month (much higher than the lowest possible package I could get from Directv directly.)

THE FCC's WEBSITE STATES:
*Q: If my association, building management, landlord, or property owner provides a central antenna, may I install an individual antenna?
*
*A:* _Generally, the availability of a central antenna may allow the association, landlord, property owner, or other management entity to restrict the installation by individuals of antennas otherwise protected by the rule. Restrictions based on the availability of a central antenna will generally be permissible provided that: (3) the costs associated with the use of the central antenna are not greater than the costs of installation, maintenance and use of an individual antenna covered under the rule_​
Because the cost to use the central Directv dish is greater than my individual dish I feel like I am legally entitled to have both satellite dishes on my patio.

The attorney has agreed to a temporary solution in which I "beautify" the dishes a bit. I said fine I'll do that. But still wants me to fill out the form. And I said I would be happy to fill out the form as soon as we come to a permanent solution.

Since the dishes are already up and I feel like I am completely within my rights and within the law I believe it is up to the HOA to prove that I am not. And they will have to go to the FCC for a ruling on the matter as long as I hold my ground.

What do other people think?


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## P Smith

See Lord Vader battle's thread.


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## trh

I'd provide your HOA and their attorney a copy of the FCC OTARD and highlight the applicable sections. There is also a section that prohibits pre-approvals.

But could you define what you meant by 'limited use' patio?



satradfan said:


> I live in a condo with a *limited use patio* where I can place a satellite dish.


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## satradfan

My satellite dishes are in a place that is covered by the FCC. The only issue they have is that I have two satellite dishes.


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## Justin23

"satradfan" said:


> My satellite dishes are in a place that is covered by the FCC. The only issue they have is that I have two satellite dishes.


Tell them to go pound sand...


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## satradfan

But the attorney is arguing that because they offer DirecTV service through a central dish I have to take my DirecTV dish down. 

I told him that I can get DirecTV cheaper on my own and that if they want to allow me to access the central dish for free and have my own DirecTV account then I will do that. 

But one of the FCC rules states that they can only limit my DirecTV dish if... (3) the costs associated with the use of the central antenna are not greater than the costs of installation, maintenance and use of an individual antenna covered under the rule. 

The costs are greater to use the central dish.

Now the attorney is asking when my current contract for service ends with DirecTV and Dish. He keeps snooping with a bunch of questions that are irrelevant and I don't like it. I also don't want to be difficult.


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## James Long

It sounds like it is time to find your own attorney ... and decide what the best route forward will be.


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## trh

You might want to call the FCC to see how they have enforced/interpeted that section in the past.

Edit (added): are the services/channels available on the central antenna the same as you can get with your dish? Like sports packages and MRV? You didn't mention part 1 of that section you quoted above, so I wasn't sure if this was another argument you could use.


> Restrictions based on the availability of a central antenna will generally be permissible provided that: (1) the person receives the particular video programming or fixed wireless service that the person desires and could receive with an individual antenna covered under the rule (e.g., the person would be entitled to receive service from a specific provider, not simply a provider selected by the association);


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## Justin23

Contact the SBCA

Satellite Broadcasting & Communication Association

www.SBCA.com


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## kenglish

Many years ago, I received a "White Area" request from someone in Park City, Utah. It was someone who lived in a HOA-controlled building, who claimed that they were not allowed to have more than one dish....among other excuses.

After calling them, I had a couple of discussions with an attorney at the FCC, who stated that they could have as many dishes as they needed, from as many different providers as they wanted, in order to get the programming they desired. The only requirements, at that location (not historic district, etc) were that they had to be on their own "controlled" area (balcony or patio), and the building did not provide a central dish or antenna to the tenants.

I went there and found that nearly everybody had one or more dishes and TV antennas. And, the viewer was actually a Secret Service employee. 
I think they were testing us  .


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## domingos35

Davenlr said:


> Yep, and the reason I would NEVER live in a HOA. The whole point in owning a house is doing what you want with it.


i live in an HOA and love it
no rusting cars setting in driveways,grass always nice and cut etc etc
they allow sat dishes as long as its installed in the back of the house


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## trh

domingos35 said:


> they allow sat dishes as long as its installed in the back of the house


but if putting the dish at the back prevents you from getting a signal, then that provision violates OTARD.


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## James Long

trh said:


> but if putting the dish at the back prevents you from getting a signal, then that provision violates OTARD.


OTARD allows many different restrictions based on common use areas vs private use areas. Define the front and side yards as common use and they may not be protected by OTARD.

I have lived in communities with a shared back yard ... it gave a nice large area where children could play together. That area would have been spoiled if people were able to put up fences and other obstructions on "their" part of the common property.

Personally as long as the dish is installed cleanly in the least obtrusive location possible and is maintained (in active use and not falling apart) I don't see a problem. But rusty dishes, anything unused or dishes placed where another location would work and be less obtrusive is not being a good neighbor.


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## PrinceLH

Davenlr said:


> Yep, and the reason I would NEVER live in a HOA. The whole point in owning a house is doing what you want with it.


Yeah, you should see my place. I put up a couple of solar panels, then a Directv dish, then a Canadian Shaw Direct, next a 40 foot T.V. tower, with dedicated UHF and VHF Hi antenna heads. Then I added a dedicated FM antenna at the 25 foot level, then came a Ku dish, now a C Band dish. I'm surprised that they haven't called Homeland Security, with all of the array's on the roof and back yard.


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## satinstallerguy

Shades228 said:


> A HoA cannot stop an installation of a dish. However a HoA could require you to have a specific service no matter if you subscribe to another service.


FALSE.... HOA can require you to put the Dish in a secluded area as to not have to see it from the street etc... However if LOS requires the dish in a location that IS visible they can not disallow it to be installed in that location. The HOA can NOT tell you which service you can have either ......... That is illegal.


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## satinstallerguy

domingos35 said:


> i live in an HOA and love it
> no rusting cars setting in driveways,grass always nice and cut etc etc
> they allow sat dishes as long as its installed in the back of the house


If LOS is only available in the front of a house, It is allowed overriding the HOA rules......... OTARD covers this.


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## Volatility

The HOA as well as apartments can NOT tell you that you can not have satellite TV period. This is against FCC regulations that protect sat.tv companies from unfair competition and/or other reasons. If you are told you can only get Comcast, Charter, Mediacom, whomever that is unlawful and they are violating FCC rules. Section 207 of the Telecommunications Act established October 1996 required the Federal Communications Commission to issue a set of rules that prohibit restrictions by zoning boards, homeowners' associations, and similar such organizations that try to keep a viewer from getting satellite tv services with direct broadcast satellite dishes. They can ONLY tell you that you can not have the dishes mounted in a certain position, but you can have it on a balcony or other areas as defined by the FCC rules. If you can not get it the signal in the area allowed then that is a NLOS issue. From the FCC website: The rule applies to video antennas including direct-to-home satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39.37") in diameter (or of any size in Alaska), TV antennas, and wireless cable antennas. The rule prohibits most restrictions that: (1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use; (2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use; or (3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal.
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule

If you're HOA or multi dwelling unit has stated you can not have sat.tv and must get cable tv instead, you can report them for violating the FCC rules. You can find a petition as stated on that FCC website by following the requirements in Section 1.4000c of the rule and write to:
Secretary, Federal Communications Commission
445 12th Street, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20554
Attention: Media Bureau

For more info you can call the FCC toll free at 1-888-225-5322


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