# ASK DBSTalk: Anyone Get L188 Yet?



## pdlittle (Jan 25, 2004)

I had an OTA problem with my 921 this morning (wouldn't complete booting) and while I was on the phone with the Advanced Tech Support they told me they were spooling L188 today. She said it started at 9:00 AM this morning. It hasn't gotten to me as yet.

Paul


----------



## Rodney (Aug 22, 2003)

Hey pdlittle,

I just got off the phone with tech support regarding an OTA issue with my 921. I was also told that L188 would download today. I inquired about a list of fixes for this release but he said that information had not been made available at this time.


----------



## pdlittle (Jan 25, 2004)

I asked the same question. She did not tell me the whole list, but she did say it included OTA fixes and some guide performance fixes. That's all she would say. She only told me that because my OTA problem had them a little nervous. At first they thought I already had the new software and they were concerned that I could not complete a reboot. However, after disconnected the satellite and antenna inputs we were able to get the unit to reboot and discovered that I still had L187. :nono2: At least we know its on the way and it may help with my problem, at least to some extent. 

Paul


----------



## Rodney (Aug 22, 2003)

The download began at 6:16pm edt.


----------



## pdlittle (Jan 25, 2004)

I just checked again. Mine started downloading 5 minutes ago. Here we go with a new update!  

Paul


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

I just got home and I see that it is downloading and I'm at 26 of 30


----------



## strabismo (Feb 1, 2004)

Mine said it was interrupted and now says no upgrade available and still running L187. Don't know why.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

strabismo said:


> Mine said it was interrupted and now says no upgrade available and still running L187. Don't know why.


Yes, I hit the done button in the download feature. It interrupted mine too. It has now started over reloading again. This time, I'm not touching anything so it can successfully download.


----------



## Florindi (Feb 17, 2004)

I have mine and don't see any obvious differences


----------



## Florindi (Feb 17, 2004)

I thought they were suppose to fix OTA aspect ratio issues such as not stretching enough?


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Florindi said:


> I have mine and don't see any obvious differences


You may be one of the luck ones where all your OTA's work properly. I'm still waiting for the download to complete. I hope that my local OTA's work properly now.


----------



## deweybrunner (Feb 8, 2004)

Maybe i'm dreaming, however, all my locals and sd reception is filling my wide screen hd tv. LOOKS GREAT! no bands on either side. Wonder what else in this update?


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

deweybrunner said:


> Maybe i'm dreaming, however, all my locals and sd reception is filling my wide screen hd tv. LOOKS GREAT! no bands on either side. Wonder what else in this update?


OK, perhaps I'm hurrying things but I don't see any improvements with OTA. Everything is the same as L187.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

boylehome said:


> You may be one of the luck ones where all your OTA's work properly. I'm still waiting for the download to complete. I hope that my local OTA's work properly now.


Don't hold your breath. I got 188. KCET, PBS in Los Angeles, sends out PSIP info. Although it can be viewed on the 921, it ****still*** cannot be recorded. Face it. The major OTA problems with this 921 POS will ***NEVER*** be fixed.

My mind is made up. As soon as DirecTV adds more HD or VOOM comes out with a PVR, Dish will be history. Dish has gone from a boastful "50 HD channel capacity" to a company that can't add any new HD unless it has "compelling content" (like that useless non HD stretched SD TNT HD channel), that can't determine if a satellite has enough power to cover the country, to a failed Superdish, and to a 921 that can't deal with OTA channels.

I won't be watching the next Charlie Chat (gave up on them a while back), but I'm sure Charlie will have a big smile on his face and he does his usual tap dancing and watches his money accumulate in the bank as he adds locals, forgoes HD, and foists the worst piece of HD equipment on us that I've ever seen or owned.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

OK, I've done some pretty good checking. It looks like L188 wasn't solely for OTA issues. Perhaps the fixes are for DVR recording of OTA. It will time me a while to verify it there are fixes with DVR functionality.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Another bug. I don't recall if this was present with 187, but it sure is with 188. Watch a 4:3 show on CBSHD East. Stretch it on the 921. It doesn't stretch enough, leaving thin gray bars (CBS NY uses gray instead of black side bars for their 4:3 content). On my 811, the stretch is fine with no thin side bars.

The HD stretch on the 921 used to be fine. Then Eldon fixed it by severely overstretching it. Now Eldon fixed it again by understretching. Maybe someday, they'll actually fix it for real, but I doubt it. My confidence in the Eldon engineers is less than zero (assuming that the 921 can actually be fixed by anyone).


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> Another bug. I don't recall if this was present with 187, but it sure is with 188. Watch a 4:3 show on CBSHD East. Stretch it on the 921. It doesn't stretch enough, leaving thin gray bars (CBS NY uses gray instead of black side bars for their 4:3 content). On my 811, the stretch is fine with no thin side bars.


Good catch Jerry G. I just checked CBSHD for L.A. It does exactly what your NY does! Report it as a bug.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> Another bug. I don't recall if this was present with 187, but it sure is with 188. Watch a 4:3 show on CBSHD East. Stretch it on the 921. It doesn't stretch enough, leaving thin gray bars (CBS NY uses gray instead of black side bars for their 4:3 content). On my 811, the stretch is fine with no thin side bars.
> 
> The HD stretch on the 921 used to be fine. Then Eldon fixed it by severely overstretching it. Now Eldon fixed it again by understretching. Maybe someday, they'll actually fix it for real, but I doubt it. My confidence in the Eldon engineers is less than zero (assuming that the 921 can actually be fixed by anyone).


Has your TV been calibrated for proper overscan? I know it is an obvious question, but still needs to be asked.


----------



## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

One thing Good I have noticed with this upgrade: NO MORE RED/BLUE/GREEN LINE down the middle of my screen. In fact the picture quality is vastly improved with this upgrade. The picture looks very good even on sd shows. I am very pleased to see the red/blue/green line go away. I was having to watch most of my sd programs in 480p just to escape this line problem. Now even sd looks very good in 1080i. I am very pleased with this upgrade. 

On another note , I thought this upgrade was going to allow us to place our digital ota channels into our favorite guide? Still can't .


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Sounds like it might be time to revisit my old stretch mode spreadsheet and see what (if anything) has changed. It'll have to wait until next Tuesday, tho - I don't have a copy of the HDNET test pattern on disk at the moment.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

jsanders said:


> Has your TV been calibrated for proper overscan? I know it is an obvious question, but still needs to be asked.


My calibration is fine. In checking various channels, it seems that some, those who broadcast in 480p stretch differently.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

boylehome said:


> Good catch Jerry G. I just checked CBSHD for L.A. It does exactly what your NY does! Report it as a bug.


Further testing suggests that the understretch with an HD signal occurs with a 1080i signal but not a 720p signal. Last night, CBS and ESPN were broadcasting 4:3 content. CBS was understretched, ESPN wasn't. With my OTA locals, found the same thing. NBC (1080i) was understretched. Fox (720) was stretched correctly.

I did spend time on the phone reporting this to advanced tech support.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

jsanders said:


> Has your TV been calibrated for proper overscan? I know it is an obvious question, but still needs to be asked.


It's not an overscan or underscan problem. Happens on both a 22" Mits widesceen LCD and a 50" Pioneer plasma. I guarantee it's not a TV scan problem but a 921 problem. Also, I have an 811 sitting next to the 921 feeding the same sets. So a comparison is very easy to do. The 921 understretches a 1080i 4:3 content, but the 811 handles the same source correctly when stretched.


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

For those of you with the stretching issue here, have you verified it on several different shows? Is it just from CBS-HD (east and west), or are you seeing it on OTA channels as well? I'm not seeing this on my sony RPTV, and it's adjusted as tight as I can get it at 4% overscan.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Mark,

I've verified it on two OTA channels that broadcast 1080i and Dish's CBS HD East feed, also at 1080i. With 4:3 material, a the stretch isn't enough. The stretch is fine with my 811 on these very same channels. As I mentioned above, it appears that a 720p signal with 4:3 material is stretched correctly based upon ESPN HD 4:3 material and a local OTA Fox 4:3 show which I believe is being broadcast as 720p. I can't check this with our local ABC which broadcasts 720p but does their own internal 14:9 obnoxious zoom of 4:3 material.


----------



## Florindi (Feb 17, 2004)

I have been dealing with this for several months. Is everyone else just seeing this for the first time? When is Dish going to resolve this issue? Mark, are they aware of this issue?


----------



## smooth28la (Oct 7, 2002)

Jerry G said:


> Don't hold your breath. I got 188. KCET, PBS in Los Angeles, sends out PSIP info. Although it can be viewed on the 921, it ****still*** cannot be recorded. Face it. The major OTA problems with this 921 POS will ***NEVER*** be fixed.
> .


KOCE started broadcasting HD on its Channel 2.. it's just a loop.. and it's not PBS produced.

You can use PVR on that channel.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

smooth28la said:


> KOCE started broadcasting HD on its Channel 2.. it's just a loop.. and it's not PBS produced.
> 
> You can use PVR on that channel.


Thanks for the information. I'll look at the loop, but it's the PBS material that I really want to time shift and I haven't been able to do it with the 921. Before my Panasonic DST50 and DVHS recorder bit the dust, I could, but now I depend upon the 921 which simply hasn't delivered the features it's supposed to, ie, being able to record HD. Until it's able to record all the OTA DTV channels, as it's supposed to, it's simply not performed as it's advertised to do, and that's false advertising in my book.

And no, I won't waste time talking about a class action suit. I'd rather take the financial hit and switch to DirecTV and the HD Tivo. It's a race. Will DirecTV add enough new HD to make the switch worthwhile or will Dish do so and make the 921 functional first. Right now it's just a waiting game to see who wins the race. I'm betting on DirecTV.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> Further testing suggests that the understretch with an HD signal occurs with a 1080i signal but not a 720p signal. Last night, CBS and ESPN were broadcasting 4:3 content. CBS was understretched, ESPN wasn't. With my OTA locals, found the same thing. NBC (1080i) was understretched. Fox (720) was stretched correctly.
> 
> I did spend time on the phone reporting this to advanced tech support.


Jerry G, My monitor is a native 720p. The stretch is wrong on mine so it just isn't 1080i.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

boylehome said:


> Jerry G, My monitor is a native 720p. The stretch is wrong on mine so it just isn't 1080i.


Your 921 under stretches?

Mine overstretches quite a bit. I look at the "bug" for KGO, ABC7 during the local news, that there is a good inch from the "bug" to the edge of the screen on my 34" tv. When I hit "stretch", the "bug" touches the edge of the screen, which says that it still over stretches quite a bit. If I switch to 480p, the stretch is even worse.

As it is, we went through this months ago. Those with DVI connections didn't have any significant overscan added by the 921. On the other hand, those with component video connections had a significant amount of overscan when an image was stretched. There was a release a while back that helped for the component users, but it wasn't really enough.

So, if you are seeing under-scan, what happens when you look at the guide window and the dvr window? I set my overscan such that when the picture overlays instead of insets in the guide, I see just a little bit of picture around the guide or the dvr menu. How much picture do you see around the edges?

It was also determined by cheezmo, Steve Martin, who is an ISF calibrator that the HDNet test pattern was not a good source for setting overscan settings. You can search for his thread on it.


----------



## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> One thing Good I have noticed with this upgrade: NO MORE RED/BLUE/GREEN LINE down the middle of my screen. In fact the picture quality is vastly improved with this upgrade. The picture looks very good even on sd shows. I am very pleased to see the red/blue/green line go away. I was having to watch most of my sd programs in 480p just to escape this line problem. Now even sd looks very good in 1080i. I am very pleased with this upgrade.
> 
> On another note , I thought this upgrade was going to allow us to place our digital ota channels into our favorite guide? Still can't .


 Well I spoke to soon . The red/blue/green line is back and to make matters worse my ota digital abc station is now stretched to wide to watch. It cuts off the corners in all modes . This wasn't like this yesterday. Should have known that something was wrong when I thought that picture quality was improved.  I guess I was smoking something. :sure:


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> It's not an overscan or underscan problem. Happens on both a 22" Mits widesceen LCD and a 50" Pioneer plasma. I guarantee it's not a TV scan problem but a 921 problem. Also, I have an 811 sitting next to the 921 feeding the same sets. So a comparison is very easy to do. The 921 understretches a 1080i 4:3 content, but the 811 handles the same source correctly when stretched.


Huh? Your telling me that because it happens on two TVs it means that there is a problem with the 921? The 811 is still a work in progress too, and probably isn't a good idea for use as a rule of measure.

Do you have a DVI connection with these two TVs? With that connection, there is almost no overscan added to the 921. The LCD and plasma TVs may be setup not to add any overscan themselves. That being the case, there may not be a problem here at all. Do you understand why TVs -add- overscan? It is because the stations may not transmit stuff on the edges of the picture that looks good. So, TVs add a few % of overscan to get rid of it. You may well just be thinking it is underscanned when it is just 0% overscan.

Record the HDNet test pattern on Tuesday mornings 5am EST. Tell us what you see on the edges of the overscan picture and let us know what you see. That might add a lot to understanding the problem.


----------



## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> One thing Good I have noticed with this upgrade: NO MORE RED/BLUE/GREEN LINE down the middle of my screen. In fact the picture quality is vastly improved with this upgrade. The picture looks very good even on sd shows. I am very pleased to see the red/blue/green line go away. I was having to watch most of my sd programs in 480p just to escape this line problem. Now even sd looks very good in 1080i. I am very pleased with this upgrade.
> 
> On another note , I thought this upgrade was going to allow us to place our digital ota channels into our favorite guide? Still can't .


Interesting -

I still see the line on what I would call "highly compressed" SD video streams (with obvious pixilation blocks). But I'd rather put up with it than constantly switch back and forth between 480p and 1080i. Maybe when they fix the over-scan issue this problem will "go away" as well&#8230;

Yeah, right.... :lol:


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

jsanders said:


> Huh? Your telling me that because it happens on two TVs it means that there is a problem with the 921? The 811 is still a work in progress too, and probably isn't a good idea for use as a rule of measure.
> 
> Do you have a DVI connection with these two TVs? With that connection, there is almost no overscan added to the 921. The LCD and plasma TVs may be setup not to add any overscan themselves. That being the case, there may not be a problem here at all. Do you understand why TVs -add- overscan? It is because the stations may not transmit stuff on the edges of the picture that looks good. So, TVs add a few % of overscan to get rid of it. You may well just be thinking it is underscanned when it is just 0% overscan.
> 
> Record the HDNet test pattern on Tuesday mornings 5am EST. Tell us what you see on the edges of the overscan picture and let us know what you see. That might add a lot to understanding the problem.


Excuse me, but I didn't just fall off the truck.

I had HD sets for over 6 years now. I'm very familiar with overscan. I'm very familiar with most aspects of HD.

The plasma has been calibrated. It has a small amount of overscan. I've previously used the HDNet test pattern. I other set, the Mits 22" LCD has a small amount of overscan.

The understretching of 1080i 4:3 content is real. It didn't exist before with the 921. If you know the history of the 921 updates, you'd know that originally, the stretch for 1080 and 720 was correct, but SD channels were vastly overstretched. When the SD overstretch was fixed, it resulted is vastly overstretching HD signals. Now, a 1080 signal is just understretched. It would appear that a 720 4:3 content has the correct amount of stretch.

The reference to two TVs demonstrating the understretching to do illustrate that it isn't just a problem with one particular set. Sure, it's possible both sets are defective. BUT THEY AREN'T!! This understretching was not always present. It is now. And neither of the sets has been altered during this time.

The reference to the 811 is to demonstrate that the 811 is doing the stretch correctly on the very same sets that the 921 isn't. I don't how to make this any more clear to you. Rather than assume that the 811 is a work in progress and isn't reliable in terms of evaluating this situation, you need to think this through more logically and truly understand what I'm saying. You are making some erroneous assumptions and recommendations.

You should also note posts from others who have observed the same understretch.

BTW, if you are not seeing thin side bars with the 921 on 4:3 content with a 1080 signal when you stretch it, then your set has way too much overscan which is hiding the thin side bars.


----------



## ggw2000 (Dec 22, 2003)

The understretching of 1080i 4:3 content is real. It didn't exist before with the 921. If you know the history of the 921 updates, you'd know that originally, the stretch for 1080 and 720 was correct, but SD channels were vastly overstretched. When the SD overstretch was fixed, it resulted is vastly overstretching HD signals. Now, a 1080 signal is just understretched. It would appear that a 720 4:3 content has the correct amount of stretch.

You should also note posts from others who have observed the same understretch. 

BTW, if you are not seeing thin side bars with the 921 on 4:3 content with a 1080 signal when you stretch it, then your set has way too much overscan which is hiding the thin side bars.


I looked at CBSHD East last night when a 4X3 program (1080I) was showing (cbs's gray wide bars on each side). I hit the format button to go to stretch mode and sure enough I have thin gray bars on both sides that are about 1" wide. This is on a Hitachi 60VX500 LCDTV. So I have to agree that someone screwed this up as the bars were NOT there before this update...Gerry


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

ggw2000 said:


> I looked at CBSHD East last night when a 4X3 program (1080I) was showing (cbs's gray wide bars on each side). I hit the format button to go to stretch mode and sure enough I have thin gray bars on both sides that are about 1" wide. This is on a Hitachi 60VX500 LCDTV. So I have to agree that someone screwed this up as the bars were NOT there before this update...Gerry


Thanks for confirming my observations, although jsanders probably won't be convinced and may blame it on your set instead of the 921.

If you can, see what happens when you stretch a 4:3 program from a 720 source such as ESPN HD or your local ABC or Fox station, as most ABC and Fox locals broadcast at 720. The stretch seems correct if the source is 720 and I'd like confirmation of that. Be careful, however, in evaluating an ABC station. Many zoom their 4:3 content to 14:9 leaving thin side bars when your aspect is set to normal. If you stretch this zoomed 4:3 content, you can't evaluate residual thin side bars as they'd disappear because of the zoom done at the station.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> Excuse me, but I didn't just fall off the truck.
> 
> I had HD sets for over 6 years now. I'm very familiar with overscan. I'm very familiar with most aspects of HD.
> 
> ...


Okay, you said, "I don't how to make this any more clear to you."

Maybe I need to share that with you then.

When you are trying to debug where the problem is, you need to as part of the bug posting rules state as much information about what you observe.

You said you were seeing underscan.

My original question was, "Has your TV been calibrated for proper overscan? I know it is an obvious question, but still needs to be asked."

This was *not* an attack on you. I said it was an obvious question that needed to be asked so that we could move to the next point.

You did *not* answer the question as part of your answer. Instead you volunteered that the same thing happens on two televisions.

In order to be more clear, all you needed to say was that your tv was recently calibrated with x% overscan, none of the settings have been changed, and that your set has been on at least 30 minutes before observing this problem.

You still have not stated if you are using a DVI connection or a component connection.

These things are important to note when you are trying to describe a bug to someone who can't see your setup.

What connection are you using between the 921 and the TV?

Next is the question that Mark asked on the previous page, "... have you verified it on several different shows? Is it just from CBS-HD (east and west), or are you seeing it on OTA channels as well?"

Another question is, since are from Los Angeles you are most likely able to get CBS-HD from the satellite and OTA unless there is some waiver issue stopping you. Do you see the same thing on the sat feed and the OTA feed? You said you get CBS-HD East Coast, right? How did you get the east coast feed btw? I get CBS-HD West coast, I'm in CA too. Seems that you should be able to compare an exact CBS-HD west coast and CBS-HD OTA as they might be the exact same channel.

This 4x3 content is being broadcast in 1080i. With this in mind, the individual station can broadcast anything they want. They can broadcast the 4x3 conent on the left side of the picture (it doesn't have to be centered), they can make the bars on the sides have a psychedelic design or even add advertisments if they want to. The content doesn't even have to be exactly 4x3. That is why Mark asked if other stations do it.

Now, as far as your other comment goes, "Thanks for confirming my observations, although jsanders probably won't be convinced and may blame it on your set instead of the 921."

I didn't make any judgments about where the problem was. I asked if your tv was calibrated and how it was connected to the 921. I mentioned that people with different connections apparently see different things. The answer to these questions are important. When writing a bug, you have to be specific as possible to narrow things down.

A statement like that, trying to project an opinion on someone is not a good idea. Emotional arguments don't carry any weight, they don't further your cause. Stating specifics about your setup will help us all understand what the problem your having is.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Hi JSanders, 

I have a DLP native 720p. I notice that everything with the 921 stretches properly with exception to some broadcasts in 420p with a 4:3 aspect ratio. I use DVI but have experimented with the component, composit, and s-video. Evey test renders the same result, understretched video that is broadcast at 480p with a 4:3 aspect ratio. Have you noticed this, as I see you may get the CBSHD?

The stretch issue does not occur with my 6000.

John


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

boylehome said:


> Hi JSanders,
> 
> I have a DLP native 720p. I notice that everything with the 921 stretches properly with exception to some broadcasts in 420p with a 4:3 aspect ratio. I use DVI but have experimented with the component, composit, and s-video. Evey test renders the same result, understretched video that is broadcast at 480p with a 4:3 aspect ratio. Have you noticed this, as I see you may get the CBSHD?
> 
> ...


My setup is different than yours is. My tv is a 34" CRT 1080i native tv with component video connections. My TV was calibrated by an experienced ISF calibrator. The color temperature was way off when I got it.

Anyway, I get CBS-HD west coast feed. I don't see grey bars on the sides of the screen, mine are black. The only SD content I view on that channel is "60 minutes" and the "CBS Evening News". Watching those particular shows, I do not see any bars on the sides of the screen when I stretch the picture. I also get CBS-HD OTA as well, and I don't see the problem with that one either.

The big problem I have is constant audio drop-outs and pixelation and an occasional "Acquiring signal" screen. It is very requent, every few minutes, and my signal strength is 90 for satellite 148, transponder 3. I can't figure that one out.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

jsanders said:


> My setup is different than yours is. My tv is a 34" CRT 1080i native tv with component video connections. My TV was calibrated by an experienced ISF calibrator. The color temperature was way off when I got it.
> 
> Anyway, I get CBS-HD west coast feed. I don't see grey bars on the sides of the screen, mine are black. The only SD content I view on that channel is "60 minutes" and the "CBS Evening News". Watching those particular shows, I do not see any bars on the sides of the screen when I stretch the picture. I also get CBS-HD OTA as well, and I don't see the problem with that one either.


Your CRT has more overscan than my plasma or LCDs and it's enough to hide the thin side bars that I see. I don't know why you're being so stubborn about this. The fact that your CRT was ISF calibrated doesn't mean a thing. Your calibrator set the overscan to something more than what my sets demonstrate. And my plasma was ISF calibrated. My previous HD set was a 56" Panasonic widescreen RPTV. It was also ISF calibrated and it still had more overscan that my current plasma and LCD HD sets. You need to understand and accept that.

Your Dish CBS HD feed is coming from KCBS in Los Angeles. It's exactly the same feed I get OTA. KCBS uses black bars for 4:3 material as does a CBS National Feed that would go to CBS stations across the country. CBS in New York, which supplies the CBS HD East feed to Dish uses gray bars for 4:3 material originating from that station. If I watch a 4:3 show from OTA CBS and stretch it with the 921, there are thin side bars. The same occurs with NBC in Los Angeles which also broadcasts 4:3 at 1080i. Thin side bars when stretched with the 921. You wouldn't see it as your CRT has more overscan than my sets.

As I mentioned before, and just again verified, the understretch only occurs with 1080i signals. With a 720 source, the 921 doesn't understretch.

This is with component inputs. I have not yet obtained the Aurora Multimedia card that will give my Pioneer plasma a DVI input. So I can't comment on how the stretch appears with the DVI output from the 921.

Now, I know you don't trust the 811, but using the 811 as a reference, if I view the same 4:3 1080i program on the same set (plasma or LCD) and compare the 811 stretch to the 921 stretch, the 921 clearly understretches when compared to the 811. If I view the same 4:3 content coming from a 720p signal (ESPN HD or our local FOX), then the 921 actually has a bit more stretch than the 811 and the 921's stretch is enough to not show the thin side bars. In summary, the 921 slightly overstretches a 720 signal and slightly understretches a 1080 signal. That's where the problem lies and that is what needs to be fixed. BTW, if I set the 921 to output SD and view the same 4:3 1080 content and stretch it via the 921, there are no thin side bars. So the 921 properly stretches 4:3 1080 sourced material when output as SD 480i via S-Video, but does not properly stretch the same 4:3 1080 material when output as 1080i via component. If I have the time, I'll try outputing the HD signal from the 921 as 480p and 720p and see if the understretch is present under those conditions.

Edit:

Just thought of one other possibility. If the hardware in your 921 is different than that in mine and the video is processed differently, then it's possible that we would see different degrees of stretching, assuming we had identical displays. But if this was possible, it would be a nightmare as the different hardware would require different code to operate properly. I guess it could be done, but the engineers would have to verify that their code works differently on different versions of the 921. Do you think this is a possibility?


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Hi Jerry_G,

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to collect information about what you are seeing. I never said my TV didn't have overscan, TVs are supposed to have a few % of oveerscan.

I'm sure that you realize that different signal inputs (480p, 720p, and 1080i) have different overscan settings on various TVs, right? 

The question I have for you is this. If you are watching an SD program on the east coast CBS-HD feed which has gray bars on it, when you stretch your picture, do you see the color in the bars change to black?

If there is truly underscan happening, then you should see a picture in the middle, surrounded by small gray bars on the sides, surrounded by small black bars afterward. The underscan condition is where the raster on a CRT tv scans the picture with some excess phospher on the tube not being illuminated by the beam. If you are seeing gray bars all the way to the edge of your screen, then there is no underscan of the image. The gray bars to the edge means the raster is scanning and illuminating phospher all the way to the edge.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> Your CRT has more overscan than my plasma or LCDs and it's enough to hide the thin side bars that I see. I don't know why you're being so stubborn about this. The fact that your CRT was ISF calibrated doesn't mean a thing. Your calibrator set the overscan to something more than what my sets demonstrate. And my plasma was ISF calibrated. My previous HD set was a 56" Panasonic widescreen RPTV. It was also ISF calibrated and it still had more overscan that my current plasma and LCD HD sets. You need to understand and accept that.


We have different hardware, as you noted, but the other difference is the incoming signal. I don't get CBS-HD East Coast Feed. The source material, which in this case adds gray bars. How thick did they make the bars? Is the SD image thinner than other programs or channels?

If you want to compare overscans, the HDNet test pattern is a common source, given that we all have the screen positions set to the same position from the view preferences. We can't compare with different source material. With the same source material, different connections can be compared, different televisions can be compared.

You can't tell me that I have more overscan on my television than yours because I don't see gray bars when I watch CBS-HD. My CBS-HD doesn't have gray bars, it is different source material.

Do you see this problem your seeing while watching other stations and other programs?


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

jsanders said:


> I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to collect information about what you are seeing. I never said my TV didn't have overscan, TVs are supposed to have a few % of oveerscan.


Yes, I fully understand that. But CRTs tend to have more overscan than fixed pixel displays. CRTs suffer from non linearity and other consequences of using a cathod ray tube which gets harder to control at the edges of the image. To compensate for this, they heed more overscan than a fixed pixel display which doesn't have to deal with the problems a CRT display must.



> I'm sure that you realize that different signal inputs (480p, 720p, and 1080i) have different overscan settings on various TVs, right?


Yes. But the observations I've made are all with the 921 and 811 outputting all signals as 1080i. So the sets see a 1080i signal regardless of the source. What's relevant here is how the 921 is outputting the signal and how much overscan the viewer's display has.



> The question I have for you is this. If you are watching an SD program on the east coast CBS-HD feed which has gray bars on it, when you stretch your picture, do you see the color in the bars change to black?


NO!



> If there is truly underscan happening, then you should see a picture in the middle, surrounded by small gray bars on the sides, surrounded by small black bars afterward. The underscan condition is where the raster on a CRT tv scans the picture with some excess phospher on the tube not being illuminated by the beam. If you are seeing gray bars all the way to the edge of your screen, then there is no underscan of the image. The gray bars to the edge means the raster is scanning and illuminating phospher all the way to the edge.


I fully understand the difference between overscan and underscan. My plasma and LCDs have a small amount of overscan. Your CRT has more overscan than my plasma or LCD. The problem with the 921 is that with a 1080 source the 921 understretches the image when the stretch aspect mode on the 921 is used. If a set, such as yours, has a high enough overscan, the thin bars (be they black from CBS Los Angeles, or gray from CBS New York) resulting from stretching with 4:3 content will not be seen. On my sets, with less overscan than yours, the thin gray or black bars will be seen. I just can't explain it any more simpler than that.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

jsanders said:


> We have different hardware, as you noted, but the other difference is the incoming signal. I don't get CBS-HD East Coast Feed. The source material, which in this case adds gray bars. How thick did they make the bars? Is the SD image thinner than other programs or channels?


The thickness of the gray bars from CBS NY is the same as the black bars from CBS Los Angeles.



> If you want to compare overscans, the HDNet test pattern is a common source, given that we all have the screen positions set to the same position from the view preferences. We can't compare with different source material. With the same source material, different connections can be compared, different televisions can be compared.


I no longer have the HDNet test pattern on my 921. I'll try to record it this week. How much overscan does the pattern indicate with your set?



> You can't tell me that I have more overscan on my television than yours because I don't see gray bars when I watch CBS-HD. My CBS-HD doesn't have gray bars, it is different source material.


Now this comment tells me you really didn't read or digest my previous post. Here's what I said:

"Your Dish CBS HD feed is coming from KCBS in Los Angeles. It's exactly the same feed I get OTA. KCBS uses black bars for 4:3 material"

I see the exact same source material from CBS LA OTA as you see on Dish's CBS HD west feed. And with 4:3 material from CBS LA, there are thin black bars when I set the 921 to stretch mode.



> Do you see this problem your seeing while watching other stations and other programs?


Once again, reread my previous post. Yes, with KNBC, which broadcasts 1080i, when I stretch their 4:3 content with the 921, there are thin black side bars.

It is patently obvious to anyone that has a display that doesn't have too much overscan (mainly fixed pixel displays) that the 921 understretches when receiving a 1080i signal output from the 921 as 1080i. I haven't checked to see if there is understretching if the 921 is set to output 720p. It's somewhat irrelevant to me as I prefer the 921 to output 1080 to my plasma and LCD HD sets.

The fact that you don't see thin black bars when stretching 4:3 1080 material doesn't mean that there isn't a significant problem with understretching from the 921. It just means that your display has enough overscan that you don't see it. But other displays with less overscan than your set will see the thin bars.

When I had my RP HD set, I thought it was great. I thought it was perfect. It was ISF calibrated. It wasn't until I got my plasma that I realized it wasn't as great as I thought. As I mentioned above, there was much more overscan on the CRT set (perhaps it needed to be that way for the reasons I mentioned above) than on my plasma. Linearity was far from perfect, even after an ISF scan. Now direct view CRT HD sets may not be as subject to linearity problems as a RP 3 gun CRT set, but in general overscan will still be greater than a fixed pixel display's overscan.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

This is what I think happened. The engineers did some work on the software (L188). They made an adjustment that makes the picture under stretch in size when a station is broadcasting in 480p 4:3 ratio only. The 480i, 720p and 1080i are correct. It just happens with the broadcast of 480p in the 4:3 aspect ratio. It looks fine on the monitor in the regular/natural mode but when you stretch it to a 16:9, it is too short from side to side but the aspect doesn't overstretch the images which are proportionate in size and shape. I have noticed that some stations can manipulate the aspect ratio. One of my local OTA stations seems to have a switching problem. They have a 4:3 aspect for program but they have condensed it so it is more like a 3:4 aspect and the images say of people are very stretched vertically. I think that different monitors will have slightly aspect appearances, and lastly, we are all correct in what we have been thinking, but we just have a different aspect in front of us.


----------



## Bogney (Jul 11, 2003)

jsanders said:


> Do you understand why TVs -add- overscan? It is because the stations may not transmit stuff on the edges of the picture that looks good. So, TVs add a few % of overscan to get rid of it. You may well just be thinking it is underscanned when it is just 0% overscan.


I believe you have this backwards. Most televisions (especially old vacuum tube sets) were not capable maintaining anything close to a 0% horizontal overscan. The broadcasters knew this and came up with a "safe title area". Anything deemed important was supposed to be away from the edges so that even a set with a huge amount of overscan would see the information. However, the is nothing inappropriate with the video outside this safe area. (One exception might be at the top edge of the picture where there is the possibility of seeing some vertical interval information on some stations).

Jerry G- Your analysis of the horizontal stretch modes is 100% correct. 720p video is accurately stretched. 1080i video is not nearly stretched as much. This has nothing to do with overscan on anyones TV. It is just more obvious on a near 0% overscan set watching CBS east which has gray side bars.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Bogney said:


> Jerry G- Your analysis of the horizontal stretch modes is 100% correct. 720p video is accurately stretched. 1080i video is not nearly stretched as much. This has nothing to do with overscan on anyones TV. It is just more obvious on a near 0% overscan set watching CBS east which has gray side bars.


Thanks for the confirmation. Just to add, the understretch will occur with any 4:3 content being broadcast as 1080 when the stretch mode is applied and if the station is not first altering the 4:3 image by zooming it as some ABC stations do with their 4:3 material. Of course, the understretch exists even with widescreen material, but it doesn't come into play as no one would stretch widescreen content.

My concern here is that the Eldon engineers may not be using a plasma or LCD to evaluate how much they stretch the image. If they are using a CRT display, they may not see the understretch that those us with plasmas or LCDs (or any set with only a small amount of overscan) will see. The engineers need to evaluate the stretch on a plasma or LCD set.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

boylehome said:


> This is what I think happened. The engineers did some work on the software (L188). They made an adjustment that makes the picture under stretch in size when a station is broadcasting in 480p 4:3 ratio only. The 480i, 720p and 1080i are correct. It just happens with the broadcast of 480p in the 4:3 aspect ratio.


No. This is not correct. I haven't carefully looked at any 480p sourced 4:3 material. But the stretch is insufficient with a 1080i signal. The image is NOT correctly stretched with a 1080 signal. It is correctly stretched with a 720p signal (it actually may be slightly overstretched with 720p, but it's so small as to be of minimal significance).

When the 921 first appeared, 1080i was stretched correctly, but SD sat broadcasts were vastly overstretched. This was fixed somewhere along the line, but somehow, the fix changed the 1080 stretch which was vastly overstretched. In attempting to fix it, the engineers overdid it and slightly understretched a 1080 signal. Now they need to concentrate on a 1080 signal and get it right and fix the understretching.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> No. This is not correct. I haven't carefully looked at any 480p sourced 4:3 material. But the stretch is insufficient with a 1080i signal. The image is NOT correctly stretched with a 1080 signal.


Between Jerry G, Jsanders, and Boylehome, we can STRETCH this topic forever 

Anyway, yes. The stretch is incorrect in 1080i, 740p, and 480p whenever the transmission from the broadcaster is transmitting 480p with a 4:3 aspect ratio.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

boylehome said:


> Between Jerry G, Jsanders, and Boylehome, we can STRETCH this topic forever


Yup. I'm afraid we're going to have to do so until the Eldon engineers are lucky enough to get it right. I say luck, because the way this stretch has been butchered and mis-engineered over the past 8 months, I find it hard to believe that they are trying to fix this by any other means other than by a hit or miss approach. Add the complete inability to fix the OTA recording issues and I really have to wonder how seriously Dish and Eldon are taking the 921 problems.

I think we're stuck with an unfixable machine that Dish would just as soon abandon and not sink any more money into. What a disaster Dish has been between the failed 105 HD Superdish fiasco and now the 921. All I can do is bide my time until DirecTV adds more HD and then junk my Dish equipment and move to DirecTV. They really seem to be a much more competent company than Dish.


----------



## Bogney (Jul 11, 2003)

jsanders said:


> Record the HDNet test pattern on Tuesday mornings 5am EST. Tell us what you see on the edges of the overscan picture and let us know what you see. That might add a lot to understanding the problem.


That is actually 8am EDT, not 5am EST.
HDNet overscan numbers. 921 in 720p mode with DVI cable feeding a Fujitsu P50.

Left=2
Right=2
Top=1
Bottom=3


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Bogney said:


> That is actually 8am EDT, not 5am EST.
> HDNet overscan numbers. 921 in 720p mode with DVI cable feeding a Fujitsu P50.
> 
> Left=2
> ...


I've set my 921 to record the HDNet Test Pattern this Tuesday morning, so I can report my numbers Tuesday evening.

You should also report the numbers when you set the 921 to stretch, assuming the numbers remain on the screen.

I checked for understretching when setting the 921 to output 720p and 480p to my Pioneer plasma and Mits LCD HD set. The understretch is present with outputs also, so it's not just limited to a 1080 921 output of a 1080 signal. It also happens when the 921 outputs 720p (as you've noted) and 480p.


----------



## Bogney (Jul 11, 2003)

Jerry G said:


> You should also report the numbers when you set the 921 to stretch, assuming the numbers remain on the screen.


The numbers only go as high as 14. If they continued, I would approximate it to read 21 both on the left and right while in the stretch mode.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Bogney said:


> I believe you have this backwards. Most televisions (especially old vacuum tube sets) were not capable maintaining anything close to a 0% horizontal overscan. The broadcasters knew this and came up with a "safe title area". Anything deemed important was supposed to be away from the edges so that even a set with a huge amount of overscan would see the information. However, the is nothing inappropriate with the video outside this safe area. (One exception might be at the top edge of the picture where there is the possibility of seeing some vertical interval information on some stations).


The NTSC standard for video is 525 scan lines and 720 "dots" per line. With that in mind, there are only 480 viewable scan lines for an NTSC broadcast. Also, the colorburst information is pushed on each horizontal line just after the horizontal sync signal. Overscan is part of the specification. They put macrovision copy protection in the overscan lines. If you watch *some* stations, you will see some random information on the left side of the screen if you watch an NTSC broadcast. The spec says to set overscan to about 5%.

Attached is a picture showing the stuff that overscan is used to get rid of, there is weird stuff on both sides and the bottom of the frame. It came from this website: http://scanline.ca/overscan/


----------



## Bogney (Jul 11, 2003)

jsanders said:


> The NTSC standard for video is 525 scan lines and 720 "dots" per line. With that in mind, there are only 480 viewable scan lines for an NTSC broadcast. Also, the colorburst information is pushed on each horizontal line just after the horizontal sync signal. Overscan is part of the specification. They put macrovision copy protection in the overscan lines. If you watch *some* stations, you will see some random information on the left side of the screen if you watch an NTSC broadcast. The spec says to set overscan to about 5%.
> 
> Attached is a picture showing the stuff that overscan is used to get rid of, there is weird stuff on both sides and the bottom of the frame. It came from this website: http://scanline.ca/overscan/


This all sounds impressive but is it meaningful in this case? My monitor allows me to shift the image so that I can see the left or right edge of the frame. On all HD channels the edge is perfectly clean. There is no "crap" (as the author on the website calls it). Therefore, it would seem to me that the least amount of overscan would be desirable.

Even the standard def channels on Dish seem to be mostly free of this contamination on the left and right edge. It should be obvious if there were any problems since the image is centered in the 16:9 frame. There is effectively no overscan in this situation.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Bogney said:


> This all sounds impressive but is it meaningful in this case? My monitor allows me to shift the image so that I can see the left or right edge of the frame. On all HD channels the edge is perfectly clean. There is no "crap" (as the author on the website calls it). Therefore, it would seem to me that the least amount of overscan would be desirable.
> 
> Even the standard def channels on Dish seem to be mostly free of this contamination on the left and right edge. It should be obvious if there were any problems since the image is centered in the 16:9 frame. There is effectively no overscan in this situation.


It is now time to explain why this is meaningful.

You said that your overscan numbers from the HDNet test pattern were:

Left=2
Right=2
Top=1
Bottom=3

You have a tiny bit of overscan but not much. First, you need to be very careful about the HDNet test pattern. Those numbers are not percentages. They do not coincide with video essentials numbers which are percentages. I think what they did here is to describe how many uniform segments there are in each direction, horizontal and vertical. It appears that each number represents about 10 actual lines when compared to the video essentials calibrated test pattern. Let's say you want 4% overscan. For horizontal, you want 1920 x .04 = 76.8, or 7.68 on the HDNet pattern. 1080 x .04 = 43.2, or 4.32 on the HDNet pattern. Notice that to maintain a 16 x 9 aspect ratio, you need numbers that are bigger in the horizontal direction than the vertical?

So, with your numbers of 2, 2, 1, 3, my approximation is that you have .926% overscan on the top, 2.77% on the bottom, and 1.04% on the right and left sides. What this means is that you have an aspect ratio that isn't quite 16x9 (1.77), it is slightly wider, 1880x1040 (1.8). Things are actually a tad more stretched, but probably not very perceptable.

Here is point. With an average of 1% overscan, you may well see weird stuff when you stretch an SD picture because the garbage around the edge of the pictures will still be visible when the image is stretched with 1% overscan. It stretches 480 lines x 720 pixels to 1080 lines x 1920 pixels in the 1080i case. If some of those lines and pixels are garbage, this will show up on the edge of the stretched screen that has no overscan. In this case, your source material may be covering up the garbage that sometimes appears with an extra thick gray bar. You stretch the picture, and you see a little gray bar sliver because you have almost no overscan.

It doesn't matter if you are using Dish Network or DirecTV, the source material is the problem.

I think boylehome has some insight when he said, "I have noticed that some stations can manipulate the aspect ratio. ... They have a 4:3 aspect for program but they have condensed it so it is more like a 3:4 aspect and the images say of people are very stretched vertically."

This is why Mark asked if you see this consistently on all stations and all programs, or if it was just this one station, or even just one program. I don't believe that question was ever answered.

At this point, I don't think what you are seeing is a bug.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

jsanders said:


> This is why Mark asked if you see this consistently on all stations and all programs, or if it was just this one station, or even just one program. I don't believe that question was ever answered.
> 
> At this point, I don't think what you are seeing is a bug.


I've already answered the question. The understretch occurs on every 1080i station I receive on the 921, whether OTA or via Dish.

It is a "bug" or whatever you want to call it. Don't you remember when the 921 went from a correct stretch to a vast overstretch of 1080 material? And now when they tried to fix it, they overcorrected, resulting in understretching. If you don't want to call it a bug, fine. Then call it a misadjustment in the code. Call it whatever you'd like, but the degree of stretch is slightly short of what it should be. For those stations that don't intentionally alter the 4:3 image, it's NOT a problem with the station. It's a problem with the 921. At this point, I don't think there is any way to convince you of this. You're taking the attitude of if you don't see it, then it doesn't exist. You're trying to find any way to explain this other than accepting the fact that it's a problem with the 921's code and you don't see it because your CRT display has much more overscan than my (and others') plasma and LCD displays have.

Additionally, if it's the station's problem, then why does stretching the same 4:3 1080 image with the 811 not reveal thin side bars as the 921 stretch does? Oh, excuse me I forgot, it's a problem with the immature 811 versus the mature 921. Ya, right. If it's a problem with the station, then you're saying that the 811 is overstretching while the 921 is stretching correctly, and that's just not true. And if it's a problem with the station or my set, then why was there a time when the 921 correctly stretched 4:3 content broadcast as 921? I hope you're not going to say that all these stations made changes in how they broadcast 4:3 material. The evidence that there is a problem with the 921's 1080 stretch is overwhelming and yet you continue to fight it with every fiber of your being. Unbelievable.

BTW, where are your HDNet test pattern numbers? Regardless of what they indicate, they are still a way to compare overscan. Please post them. I will as soon as I can record the test pattern.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> I've already answered the question. The understretch occurs on every 1080i station I receive on the 921, whether OTA or via Dish.


Okay, I don't recall you said that, and that information is *very* important! If it happens on all of the stations, then it is a problem. If you could post some pictures of this happening on various channels and various programs demonstrating this, it would be much appreciated.

I have not been attacking your character with my responses, please keep your arguments to facts. Second guessing someone else is valueless.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

I notice the problem with other stations as well. The, "understretch" is the same on the 921 when these stations broadcast in 480p with a 4:3 aspect. In checking my 6000, the aspect ratios are correct (they properly fill the screen). It seems that the 921 has a variation with a broadcast in 480p with a 4:3 aspect regardless if your using 1080i, 720p, or 480p. Any other theories?


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

jsanders,

Do you intend to post your overscan/underscan numbers from the HDNet pattern? Bogney did so. If all went well, my 921 recorded the pattern this morning and I'll check it tonight and post my numbers. But if you don't post your numbers, this is all a waste of time.

Thanks.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> Do you intend to post your overscan/underscan numbers from the HDNet pattern? Bogney did so. If all went well, my 921 recorded the pattern this morning and I'll check it tonight and post my numbers. But if you don't post your numbers, this is all a waste of time.


It will be another day before I will have time to turn on the TV, I've been away for a couple of days. I will do my best to verify your observations, stretching material with 1080i, 720p, and 480p broadcasts. From what you are saying, 1080i should be under-stretched, and 720p should be okay. According to others, 480p may have problems too.

I also agree with you that CRTs can have non-linearity problems with their amplifiers. I reduced the overscan on my set a while back, and the set has to warm up before it holds a steady state. I can reduce the underscan a lot in the horizontal direction. It has some trouble reducing overscan in the vertical direction, I can get it within a few %. CRTs are capable of doing 0% overscan though, monitors have been doing it for years. I didn't care for the solarization problems, lack of native resolution, contrast ratio with the early plasma models. My next TV will probably be an LCD TV when they produce models with 1920x1080 pixels, a good viewing angle, and contrast ratio.

It is not a waste of time to post your data, even if I did or did not. I will btw. It is a few percent, more than what was already posted. If yours is around 0%, you have an opportunity to measure how much the image is being stretched. You could measure your overscan as per the HDNet test pattern, and then copy the scale to a post-it note which you can tape to the bottom of your monitor. When you stretch your 1080i 4x3 image, note which number it gets to on the scale. From there, you should be able to quantify exactly how much under-stretch you are seeing. That might be useful data. It would be interesting to know.


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

I tried what you were saying, and I see exactly the same thing!

I had set my overscan to be slightly bigger than the size of the DVR and guide menus, around 4% overscan.

Tonight, I reduced the horizontal overscan and changed the horizontal position so that I could see at least one end of the picture down to the number '2' on the HDNet test pattern.

Next, I turned to a 1080i broadcast, CBS-5 (KPIX), and then stretched the picture. There was a significant under-stretch to the picture. I changed the channel to a 720p broadcast, ABC-7 (KGO), and stretched the picture. There was no under-stretch at all.

Next, I put a post-it note on the screen and copied the tick marks from the HDNet test pattern corresponding to 2, 4, 6, 8, and 10. I then switched to the 1080i broadcast again and stretched the picture. The post-it note said that the under-stretch went to as far as the '10' marker, it was significant. If I understand the test pattern well enough, ('10' * 10)/1920 * 100% = 5% under-stretch!

The difference between a 720p and 1080i stretch is so small on my normal settings that I didn't notice it.

So, I have to apologize. I wasn't paying close enough attention to when I read through this thread. I was thinking that the problem was only occuring with a single station, CBS-HD east coast feed. With that understanding, I thought the problem was with the source material, and that is what I was arguing. I'm sorry for my error.


----------



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

jsanders said:


> I tried what you were saying, and I see exactly the same thing!
> 
> The difference between a 720p and 1080i stretch is so small on my normal settings that I didn't notice it.
> 
> So, I have to apologize. I wasn't paying close enough attention to when I read through this thread. I was thinking that the problem was only occuring with a single station, CBS-HD east coast feed. With that understanding, I thought the problem was with the source material, and that is what I was arguing. I'm sorry for my error.


Thank you very much. I'm glad you were able to see and confirm what I see.

Using the HDNet test pattern, both my LCD and plasma indicate 6 on the left and right. So my sets have a bit more overscan than I thought they did, but it's not enough overscan to hide the understretch on 1080 with the 921. As you noted, a 720p, when stretched by the 921, is correct. It's only with 1080 that the understretch occurs. I believe many people will not see this understretch, especially if they have CRT displays which tend to have more overscan than fixed pixel displays.

For the engineers to fix this, I sure hope they are using either a CRT with minimal overscan or a fixed pixel display. Otherwise, they may not see the 1080 understretch.

Thanks again.

Jerry


----------

