# A 2010 compendium of D* DVR bugs



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Here's my latest list of pure bugs. I've compiled and verified this list (along with the other lists in the posts that follow) over the last 12 days. Just yesterday the rollout of 0x03DE started for some DVR models (HR21, HR22, HR23 and R22); this new release may fix some bugs (and may introduce some).

I've omitted design deficiencies so that fanboys can't pretend not to see the bugs. I've also tried to omit problems caused by bad Guide data, and issues such as pixelization, dropouts and stutters, for which the blame seems to fall on poor signal quality.

Corrections are welcome. I've verified that any bugs that are reproducible still exist. Some intermittent problems may have been fixed secretly.

_Overarching problem, which I'm arbitrarily calling a bug because I'm certain that the limit is required by generally inefficient coding:_

• Series Links are limited to 50.

_Other issues pale next to the speed issues (which the HR24 may be responsive enough to avoid):_

• Key presses may be ignored, or acted on too late. For instance, a late-acting Down Arrow will hit just as you press Select, selecting the wrong item.
• Trick Play button presses are usually ignored for the first few seconds after a recording begins playing.
• Entering letters with the numeric keypad ("triple-tapping") frequently generates mistakes. For instance, pressing the '3' button twice quickly may generate 'DD' instead of 'E'.
• Returning from a detailed show description to a list takes way too much time refreshing the list.
• Press-and-hold functions work only sometimes.
• Press-and-hold functions sometimes engage when you don't want them to (as if you were holding a key down).
• You can't pause a recording on the correct frame unless you anticipate and press the Pause key a little early.
• Instant Replay may take so long to respond that you go back only 2 or 3 seconds.
• Pressing Play to make the progress bar disappear is often acted on too late, so that the progress bar reappears.
• Pressing Play twice too quickly, to make the progress bar appear for just a moment, usually leaves it on the screen.
• Channel changing may fail if the channel banner needs to be brought up; the first digit is accepted, but the second one is dropped.
• Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage.

_Scheduling/recording errors:_

• The presence of a VOD SD version of a film prevents the recording of a broadcast HD version.
• Series Links occasionally get mysteriously deleted (with old ones re-added at the same time).
• Occasionally one may lose all Series Links and even all recorded programs (typically after an update, in which case rebooting may bring back the programs).
• If the primary showing of an episode conflicts, episodes later in the week may not be scheduled nor recorded, and attempts to manually schedule a later showing may be secretly vetoed.
• An individual show you explicitly schedule and which gets added to the To Do List may still not get recorded, and as a rule there'll be no history entry.
• A series episode recording may be missed, with the history entry claiming that the recording was cancelled by the user.
• A show may schedule itself to record (on both tuners!) even though no one requested it, and attempts to cancel the recording(s) fail.
• The beginning of an OTA recording may be cut off in favor of the soft padding for a previous show.
• The feature that suggests an alternate channel when a live event is blacked out no longer seems to work.
• Live event padding, once selected, may become unchangeable; normally it can be changed to any value - except to zero.
• Very long recordings may be broken into two parts.
• A recording may be blank.
• A recording may mistakenly last 24 hours or more, deleting other programs.
• A recording may use the foreground tuner (which you're watching) even though the background tuner is available.

_Searching errors:_

• Smart Search frequently fails to find any matches at all.
• Searching often fails to find all matches that are in the Guide, even missing shows that are on in the next 24 hours.
• Search's incremental matching often freezes, requiring the entry of an additional character to make it respond to the last one.
• Search's incremental matching always clears the list of results if you enter an extra character that matches nothing.
• Searching may not find any matches past the next 3-7 days, even when there are 11 days' worth of Guide data.
• Often the first item in the list of Smart Search results is discarded each time you select any item in order to explore it.
• 'Channels I Get' has always included some channels you can't get, leading the user to try to record unavailable shows.
• NNOT after TTITLE always causes a search to return no results.

_Video errors:_

• Video may freeze for a few seconds while the audio continues normally.
• Video and audio may freeze for 30-60 seconds, or become choppy on all channels.
• Rewind and Instant Replay frequently cause severe stuttering of audio and/or video.
• Pixelization, dropouts and stutters are not always signal-related; rewinding can make them go away.
• While you're watching Live TV, the buffer will get dumped if a recording starts on that channel.
• While you're watching Live TV, with no remote activity for a while, the buffer gets dumped if the channel banner pops up by mistake as a show happens to start in real time.
• A paused screen always flashes back on briefly and intermittently after the screen saver starts.
• The screen saver may start up while you're watching Live TV (not paused).
• Closed Captioning and DirecTV Subtitles may both be on at the same time, making captions illegible.
• The progress bar may become entirely red for all live shows.
• QuickTune may fail to change the channel, or it may switch to the wrong channel.
• Instant Replay always displays the new picture late, leading you to press it too many times.

_Stability/reliability problems:_

• Caller ID may work only intermittently.
• Bogus "Searching for Satellite (771)" error that goes away if you reboot.
• Guide may fail to fill with data until you reboot twice within 30 minutes (clearing your Guide cache).
• The UI may become unusably slow after a firmware update, or simply after extended use; rebooting may help for a while.
• Manual rebooting is frequently needed to make flaky UI or playback behavior go away.
• Occasionally, a "reset everything" (which deletes all recordings and SLs) is required to make the receiver work.
• A receiver may stop accepting remote commands (while still responding to the front panel controls); the box needs to be unplugged, perhaps for a long time.
• Spontaneous reboots occur fairly frequently, for some.
• Overnight lockups happen often to a few users.
• A receiver may turn itself on, repeatedly, perhaps several times in an hour.
• Add-on (eSATA) disks are unsupported; they may be erased spontaneously or just stop working, typically after a firmware update.
• The automatic restart after a firmware update often needs to be repeated manually to make the receiver work.
• For some, a manual reboot is necessary every time the box is turned on.
• A firmware update sometimes renders a working receiver irrevocably unusable.
• Playing all the shows in a folder (say, to a DVD recorder) may spontaneously abort.
• Guide may go completely blank; rescanning OTA channels or rebooting repopulates the Guide.
• Some internal hard drives became very noisy (intermittently) after the 0x034c firmware update.

_Sloppy coding:_

• Conflicting OTA channel numbers from out-of-range stations can make local channels untunable.
• All sorted lists treat A, AN and THE as significant words.
• Tuner #2 (or the ability to record off of it) may be lost for no reason.
• Channel blocking has never worked. (If it did, channels you don't get, PPV and maybe even VOD could be excluded from searches.)
• An Upcoming Episodes list may refresh itself twice instead of once (after Select ... Back).
• A loud "pop" sound may occur consistently upon pressing Play after FF or Rewind.
• A message asking if you want to delete the recording may pop up while you're watching the recorded show live.
• Recordings that are between 16 and 29 minutes long have no tickmark at 15 minutes.
• Connection to the Internet may disappear for no reason, usually after a firmware update.

_Heavy TV watchers like me have to use compound Keyword Autorecords (ARSLs) to get around the 50-SL limit. But there are a lot of problems with ARSLs that don't occur with regular SLs:_

• ARSLs without a CCHAN directive record PPV channels and channels you can't get (usually only the ones marked incorrectly; sometimes, all of them).
• ARSLs record all reruns even though you specify First Run Only. (This bug impacts cable series like _Justified_ more than it does network shows.)
• Sometimes an ARSL rerun recording is truncated around the 15- or 30-minute mark for no apparent reason.
• ARSLs (even long-established ones) occasionally fail to record first-run shows.
• From the To Do List, it takes two passes to record a low-priority episode while cancelling a higher-priority one. [See report]
• From the Guide, you simply cannot succeed in recording a low-priority episode while cancelling a higher-priority one. [See report]
• Cancelling an ARSL series episode may not stick; if there's no conflict, the episode may get rescheduled for the same time slot.
• ARSL users must babysit the Guide and/or the To Do List to make sure shows will be recorded.

_Mystery:_

Why do terrible problems (that look like hardware problems because no one else is reporting them) sometimes show up right after a firmware update? Perhaps memory (volatile or nonvolatile) is prone to malfunction, and the new firmware is affected more because a critical piece of code is now stored at a bad location?


----------



## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Boy, I'll bet you'll be happy with August rolls around and you can cancel DirecTV and spread your wisdom with some other provider:sure:


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

RAD said:


> Boy, I'll bet you'll be happy with August rolls around and you can cancel DirecTV and spread your wisdom with some other provider:sure:


Can we donate to a fund and pay his ETF so he can go get his precious Tivo on cable? :lol: I'm in for $10.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

The following problems can't be called accidents, like having a beetle crawl into the computer circuitry. Instead, they're supposedly the result of careful thought.

_User Interface:_

• The remote will not repeat automatically unless you hold down a key for a full 3 seconds.
• No dedicated Slow Motion key.
• No Clear key.
• The Exit key may clear the screen, but if the screen clears itself first, the program you're watching is dismissed.
• The Stop key dismisses the program you're watching - the Exit key shouldn't do it too.
• The Active key (nestled in among Pause, Guide and List) serves mainly to waste time when pressed by accident.
• Double Dash can delete items from some lists (with no nagging) but not from others.
• The progress bar covers too much of the screen.
• There's no way to make the progress bar go away quickly, automatically.
• The progress bar in a recording shows it as complete no matter how much of it was lost to rain fade.
• You can't tell what channel the background tuner is on (if no recording is in progress) without engaging DoublePlay.
• DoublePlay won't continuously buffer the background tuner after two hours, and there's no way to shut it off.
• Unsupported add-on disk storage disables the internal disk drive.
• Instant Replay should mute the sound for an instant while it presents the destination frame for you to quickly judge whether another Replay is needed.
• Autocorrection is not adjustable.
• Single-stepping after a pause requires repeated presses of the >> button; this is the one place where press-and-hold would make sense.
• The progress bar does not go away by itself when you single-step.
• Closed Captioning and Subtitling both use only low-resolution fonts with jagged edges.
• Neither Closed Captioning nor Subtitling stays on during FF1.
• Even though the Format key can't change the way an HD channel is displayed when the TV Ratio is set to 16:9, it still cycles through all its options.
• There's no way to correct images that have been stretched by bad channels such as TNT and TBS.
• PiG (PiL & PiM) can't be turned off.
• Long program names in lists, and Series Manager entries, are truncated; highlighting a name that's too long does not display the complete name anywhere else on the screen.
• Upcoming Episodes/Showings looks only at the current channel; for a list across all channels, a Smart Search is needed.
• Deletion is permanent; there's no undelete, or Deleted Shows folder.
• There's no prompt to prevent accidental channel changes when behind in the live buffer.

_Navigation:_

• Menus and lists don't remember your last position (unless you back into them).
• There's no way to go quickly to the top or bottom of a list.
• Too many keypresses are required to get to the To Do List, the Prioritizer, and Manual recording.
• No way (Ch up/down?) to go directly to the previous/next detailed show description in any list.
• No way to skip to a given date in the To Do List or in the History list.

_Playlist:_

• There's no good way to ungroup the shows in the Playlist - perhaps to see which shows will be deleted next.
• Re-ordering the Playlist forgets which item you were pointing to (even though it remembers which folder you had open last).
• Grayed names in the Playlist are too dim, and playing a show to the end does not revert its name to black as it should.
• The Playlist option "Open/Close All" doesn't keep the folders open; selecting a non-foldered program closes all folders.
• The Playlist option "Sort programs by category" doesn't sort; it filters.
• A filtered Playlist mixes 'On Now' VOD shows in with the shows you've recorded.
• Ordering the Playlist alphabetically doesn't ungroup the folders, so there's no way to get a true alphabetical list.
• Pressing left arrow or Back in a filtered Playlist doesn't go back just one step (to allow selecting another category).
• A filtered Playlist doesn't include the usual keep/expiry icons, DOW, date, time and channel name - just name, channel number and duration.
• If you stay in a filtered Playlist long enough, you'll see it refresh for no reason.
• A filtered Playlist is always sorted by date (newest first); the currently selected sort order is ignored.
• A filtered Playlist never remembers your last position in it, even after you've done nothing more than (Select, Back).

_Guide:_

• No way to scroll sideways in the Guide by the width of the Guide.
• No way to go backwards in the Guide to see shows that just ended (let alone yesterday's shows).
• The Guide shows only 90 minutes at a time.
• The Guide shows only 6 channels at a time (5 when an obnoxious ad is inserted).
• Dark gray channel names (unavailable channels) in the Guide are almost invisible unless highlighted.
• There's no way to get a true filtered Guide.
• The Guide option "Sort programs by category" doesn't present any kind of Guide; instead it presents a (humongous and almost completely useless) filtered list.
• A "Sorted Guide" list erroneously includes (and begins with) shows from the Playlist (in order to push VOD).
• A "Sorted Guide" list is polluted with PPV channels and channels you can't get, ignoring your current Favorites list.
• Pressing left arrow or Back in a "Sorted Guide" list doesn't go back just one step (to allow selecting another category).
• A "Sorted Guide" list doesn't indicate date, time or channel name - just name, channel number and duration.
• A "Sorted Guide" list will refresh itself while you're (slowly) paging through it, discarding your position in it.

_Recording:_

• You're never entirely sure which shows will be recorded, because scheduling occurs very slowly in the background - sometimes in the last possible hour (or not at all).
• In a live buffer, the progress bar lies about the extent of a show that is being recorded; it does not indicate any padding, and the red portion extends backward only 90 minutes.
• If you're paused in a live buffer, your position is discarded after 90 minutes even though you're recording the program.
• Manual recording (say, of an unscheduled event partially captured in a live buffer) lets you specify a starting time that's a few minutes ago, then says "Unable to perform this operation (747)".
• End-padding of recordings is limited to certain arbitrary amounts; for example, pads of 3, 4, and 10 minutes aren't allowed.
• Start-padding of recordings is even more limited (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 minutes); 15, 20 and 30 minutes would be nice.
• Negative padding of recordings at start or end is not provided for.
• You can't specify the default amount of padding for live events (fixed at 30 minutes).
• Manual recording is unnecessarily difficult, requiring too many keypresses.
• In Manual Recording, the start time always defaults to 5 minutes past the next half hour.
• No way to enter a channel number when recording manually (0x0368 answered complaints about this feature working poorly by disabling it).

_Recording History:_

• History list gives erroneous reasons for a show's cancellation or deletion (if there's any history entry at all).
• Neither channel name nor number can be seen in the History list 'til you view the actual entry.
• History entries don't provide episode titles, only descriptions.
• History entries don't tell what date/time a show was deleted.
• A recording paused during playback doesn't stay paused for very long if you leave the receiver on when turning off the TV.

_Searching:_

• Search results include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get. Although the titles are grayed for MOST of the channels you can't get, the useless entries still waste the user's time.
• Searches produce lists that identify channels only by number.
• Boolean expressions for searching remain undocumented and difficult to use.
• Keyword searches are limited to 50 characters, and the TTITLE and CCHAN operators are unnecessarily long.
• The list of Recent Searches is limited to 25, so you must frequently recreate them.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

RAD said:


> Boy, I'll bet you'll be happy with August rolls around and you can cancel DirecTV and spread your wisdom with some other provider:sure:


Opinions are OK....but that list has been repeated many times...so many here understand the difference between flaws and wish list items.

No worries.


----------



## mikemyers (May 19, 2010)

RAD said:


> Boy, I'll bet you'll be happy with August rolls around and you can cancel DirecTV and spread your wisdom with some other provider:sure:


Or, other people experiencing something already listed here will realize that it's something that others are dealing with, and maybe not a bug in their particular gear. If something wasn't working right for me, I'd be relieved to know that it's a known problem, and hopefully will be fixed - rather than something being broken in my own equipment. 

Thanks for the list!


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

_Just for a little balance, here's what I like about DirecTV:_

• [Most important by far] Great HD picture quality, close to OTA.
• My box is currently recording almost all of the shows in my SL list that it should record.
• Multi-Room Video, which is now being called Whole Home DVR.
• One-touch record, one-touch keep, and two-touch delete are nice conveniences. (Although double Dash is dangerous.)
• Available-space meter.
• Bookmarks.
• Caller ID (when it works).
• Triple-tap (cellphone) text entry is nice (when it works).
• Conflicting programs are (or at least are intended to be) included in the To Do List.
• HD icon and (R) icons on programs in lists and in the Guide.
• Automatic padding of a recording's start and/or stop time by one minute when possible.
• Automatic padding suggestion for live events (although the default is fixed at 30 minutes).
• Three-keypress access to DirecTV Subtitling (but I wish it were one keypress).
• The Back button can go back through all the screens you've visited until you return eventually to the show you were watching (so that the next Back will go to your last position in the Playlist).
• There are more ways to get to a list of upcoming showings than TiVo provides. (Too bad that sometimes such a list is limited to the channel you started with.)
• History list now displays why things occurred at its top level. (Even though the reasons given are often wrong.)
• The brrrrps have subsided; they're down to one every few hours now.
• I don't need to do Red Button Resets anymore. (I still do it from time to time in an effort to make the box more responsive or to get rid of a bug, but it doesn't help.)
• The reason I have DirecTV and not Dish is that I'm still using my trusty $900 HR10-250, with its OTA HD channels, on my lesser TV. It can receive OTA HD to make backup recordings. And when I need to search into next week, or get search results that aren't polluted by VOD/PPV/CIDG, I use the HR10.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

_My TiVo has a few faults:_

• The HR10 always forgets your position (in either a recording or the live buffer) if you exit after pausing within 5 minutes of the end.
• FFx1 frequently (and inevitably) freezes, and then the screen may go black after a while, unless and until you press another trick play button.
• Conflict-resolution dialogs list only two of the three conflicting shows. You're not sure which shows will end up being recorded. And no durations are indicated.
• Every few months my HR10 has to be restarted, often after it complains that it hasn't been able to get schedule data because the phone connection isn't working.
• [not a bug; WAD] The HR10 makes you wait a minute or three after you shuffle the Season Pass list.
• [completing TiVo users' disenfranchisement] It can no longer pick up any HD channels from the DirecTV satellites.

Maybe DirecTV prevented TiVo from updating the HR10 after v6.3, back when Rupert Murdoch was "the decider."


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

In case anyone was wondering, that's 81 bugs and 75 design deficiencies.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Here's a few comments. Just because I didn't comment on a line item doesn't mean I agree with it.



Syzygy said:


> _Overarching problem, which I'm arbitrarily calling a bug because I'm certain that the limit is required by generally inefficient coding:_• Series Links are limited to 50.


This is a problem for you, not necessarily inconsistent with the design of the DVR. Call it a design flaw, not a bug.



> • Returning from a detailed show description to a list takes way too much time refreshing the list.


This is your perception, not necessarily a bug.


> • Press-and-hold functions work only sometimes.
> • Press-and-hold functions sometimes engage when you don't want them to (as if you were holding a key down).
> • Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage.


Again I would call this a design flaw.


> • Instant Replay may take so long to respond that you go back only 2 or 3 seconds.


You're implying that you know that it was designed to go back further. This is you not liking the implementation, not a bug.



> • The presence of a VOD SD version of a film prevents the recording of a broadcast HD version.


I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean at all.


> • If the primary showing of an episode conflicts, episodes later in the week may not be scheduled nor recorded, and attempts to manually schedule a later showing may be secretly vetoed.


I agree this is a bug but is being addressed/has been addressed.


> • The feature that suggests an alternate channel when a live event is blacked out no longer seems to work.


That is not true.


> • Live event padding, once selected, may become unchangeable; normally it can be changed to any value - except to zero.


Not in my experience.


> • Very long recordings may be broken into two parts.


What is very long?



> • Searching may not find any matches past the next 3-7 days, even when there are 11 days' worth of Guide data.


Again, a design flaw perhaps but not a bug.


> • Video may freeze for a few seconds while the audio continues normally.
> • Video and audio may freeze for 30-60 seconds, or become choppy on all channels.
> • Rewind and Instant Replay frequently cause severe stuttering of audio and/or video.
> • Pixelization, dropouts and stutters are not always signal-related; rewinding can make them go away.


This seems to be something far more common in your experience than others. It suggests a hardware or wiring issue.


> • While you're watching Live TV, the buffer will get dumped if a recording starts on that channel.


Design flaw. Not a bug.


> • A paused screen always flashes back on briefly and intermittently after the screen saver starts.


Not always, not even commonly.


> • The progress bar may become entirely red for all live shows.


I'm sorry I don't understand.


> • Caller ID may work only intermittently.


Again, this seems to suggest hardware or wiring issues on your end. 


> • Occasionally, a "reset everything" (which deletes all recordings and SLs) is required to make the receiver work.


That is a legitimate diagnostic procedure.


> • Spontaneous reboots occur fairly frequently, for some.
> • Overnight lockups happen often to a few users.


Again, suggesting issues with the individual hardware or wiring, not systemic issues. 


> • Add-on (eSATA) disks are unsupported; they may be erased spontaneously or just stop working, typically after a firmware update.


Something being unsupported is not a bug.


> • The automatic restart after a firmware update often needs to be repeated manually to make the receiver work.
> • For some, a manual reboot is necessary every time the box is turned on.


This seems to be much more common for you.


> • Channel blocking has never worked. (If it did, channels you don't get, PPV and maybe even VOD could be excluded from searches.)


Design flaw, not a bug.


> • Recordings that are between 16 and 29 minutes long have no tickmark at 15 minutes.


I can't even call this a design flaw, it's a design decision.

Overall, I would suggest you reorganize your list and separate out things that simply don't function the way you want them to, as opposed to things that do not function consistently or do not function at all despite documentation stating that they should.

I respect the effort you have put forth but clearly we are prone to disagree on the definition of "bug."


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Syzygy,

You're signature further reinforces what we all know...You worship Tivo & nothing will ever make you happy with HR2x. Hopefully, this strokefest of Tivo topic will make you feel better. Every few months you post your list and deny any criticism. Rinse & repeat.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> The following problems can't be called accidents, like having a beetle crawl into the computer circuitry. Instead, they're supposedly the result of careful thought.


So here is your list of "bad design decisions." Actually, I agree with many of them. There are a lot of UI changes I'd like to see.


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> In case anyone was wondering, that's 81 bugs and 75 design deficiencies *that my Tivo-loving-self feels are bugs or design deficiencies.*


Fixed your post.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

My eyes started to get crossed after going down your list. 
Trickplay not functioning for a few secs after starting a recording or I think even with a live channel change is something I've noticed.
Most of your others [though I didn't go through the whole list] I either don't have or don't use the function to know.
I'm not sure things like the time press and hold works would be a bug. Not everyone wants this to work the same. You seem to want almost instantaneous reaction and since this really is two functions of one button, I can see how others would hate this and call this a bug if it worked faster.

One persons "bug" is an others "feature".

18 million customers and 60% with HD can't possible have 100% completely happy. 
Not to say there aren't things that need improving, but not all of your list are bugs/defects I have here.


----------



## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

I understand your desire for a list of bugs, but there are a few things that concern me about your list. 

1) Are some of these fixed. Just one example: I haven't seen a report of a runaway recording for a long time. Perhaps this bug has been fixed? Perhaps I missed a recent report. How do you know when to remove a bug from your list? Since we don't get detailed bug fix documentation, what is your criteria?

2) Some of these descriptions are a little vague. What is "too much time" to refresh the playlist? Also, "An individual show you explicitly schedule and which gets added to the To Do List may still not get recorded, and as a rule there'll be no history entry." Without real details, how do we know this is a bug an not user error? I'm not saying these aren't problems, just that your descriptions are so vague to be of any use to anyone (user with a problem or developer trying to address the problem).

3) While you didn't want to include signal issue problems, you included blank recordings. We have seen a few problems in the past with blank recordings where people swore live tv of that program was fine. I haven't see any report of that in some time. Blank recordings can (and most often are) cause by a signal issue either before it gets to the DVR or a dying tuner in the DVR. I wouldn't want someone to think it is an issue they need to live with, when they really need to troubleshoot their hardware.

4) I have to admit that the list is so long that once I saw a few vague ones, I stopped reading. If you really want it be be useful for users to see if their problem is a known issue I think some reogranization is needed. Or at least some more information. How long its been since the bug has been verifibly spotted. Variations of causes, including when it could be hardware should be noted.

You've got a good start, but to be really useful I think your going to need a lot more info.


----------



## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

While I respect the effort it took to assemble this incredible list, I do need to make an observation:

Day in day out, I use my DVRs. they record all my scheduled shows without exception. I am able to watch all of the recorded shows without exception. I can't remember the last time any of my hardware failed to perform as expected.

I did go through a period of about 2 weeks several months back wherein my HR23 was operating at a crawl, but as I participate in the CE process I credited that with the problem. It is back to normal currently.

In short, I consider myself to be a normal user. The hardware works.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Whether or not we agree which items on Frank's list are bugs and which are design decisions, anyone who obviously cares this much about the product to expend that much time and effort tracking and detailing areas for improvement should be commended for the effort. Just my .02.

And speaking for myself, I'd like to see about 1/4 of the items on that (design) list addressed. The HR2x is pretty sweet as it is, but there's nothing wrong with "gilding the lily". 



Stuart Sweet said:


> I respect the effort you have put forth [...]


And so do I.


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> • A paused screen always flashes back on briefly and intermittently after the screen saver starts.





Stuart Sweet said:


> Not always, not even commonly.


I'm going to disagree with Stuart's response to Syzygy here, as I experience this issue every time I pause something... but to be honest, I don't really have an issue with it since it really doesn't have any effect on the way I use the HR2x...

I'm of mixed emotions about Syzygy's list, as there are some things on the list I consider a bug (like the above mentioned issue), some I consider (as Stuart might refer to it) a "design flaw", and some which I consider to simply be a matter of design choice (some of which I disagree with as well), and some which... quite frankly, I don't experience.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Steve said:


> Whether or not we agree which items on Frank's list are bugs and which are design decisions, anyone who obviously cares this much about the product to expend that much time and effort tracking and detailing areas for improvement should be commended for the effort. Just my .02.


DITTO!!

~Alan


----------



## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

If my DVR had all those problems I'd be off to FiOS in an instant, despite the small size of the FiOS hard disk.

Fortunately that's not the case.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

DogLover said:


> ... 1) Are some of these [bugs] fixed[?] Just one example: I haven't seen a report of a runaway recording for a long time. Perhaps this bug has been fixed? Perhaps I missed a recent report. *How do you know when to remove a bug from your list? Since we don't get detailed bug fix documentation, what is your criteria?*
> 
> 2) Some of these descriptions are a little vague. What is "too much time" to refresh the playlist? Also, "An individual show you explicitly schedule and which gets added to the To Do List may still not get recorded, and as a rule there'll be no history entry." Without real details, how do we know this is a bug an not user error? I'm not saying these aren't problems, just that your descriptions are so vague to be of any use to anyone (user with a problem or developer trying to address the problem).
> 
> ...


Thanks for a helpful response, one of several.

DirecTV is silent on bugs and fixes, so there's no way of knowing what's still a bug. It's really pitiful that we should have to assume that a bug is gone simply because there are no recent reports of it.

Some bugs in the list, I admit, are based on reports from others - but never from just one user.

I want to assure you that no user error was involved in this problem, which I personally experienced: "An individual show you explicitly schedule and which gets added to the To Do List may still not get recorded, and as a rule there'll be no history entry." I reported it as an NR issue.

"A good start?" I'm plumb tuckered out! And here comes a new NR, which may fix some things, but how will I know?

Waiting for the new DirecTiVo. When it arrives, D* can continue with their bugfest without any comment from me.


----------



## PokerJoker (Apr 12, 2008)

I agree that the effort to compile this list is praiseworthy.

I would postulate that at least half of these issues trace back in some way (directly or indirectly) to the inadequate (slow) hardware. It would be interesting to know how many of these are suddenly "fixed" on the faster HR24.

Here's one that happened to me the other day - The to-do list, with 30+ entries in it, apparently deleted itself. In the middle of the day, with no reboots involved. I knew a particular show was on, and I saw that it was not recording. Checked the to-do list and it was empty. :eek2: Series links were all still in place. I did the obvious thing and rebooted the box (an HR21-100). It took an inordinately long time to come back (8 minutes) and when it did, all guide data was gone. Both the guide data and the to-do list did eventually repopulate themselves, but this was a definite eye-opener. And if I had not caught it, who knows how many recordings would have been missed.

Anyone else have this happen?

Keith


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Syzygy said:


> Waiting for the new DirecTiVo. When it arrives, D* can continue with their bugfest without any comment from me.


It will certainly help if TiVo gets the software out there to be able to ascertain what is possible and what isn't.

One of the disadvantages of the subcontract approach to hardware design and manufacturing is that the software must be targeted to the least common denominator.


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

In the 4 years I've had my HRXX's, I've never had a problem with any of the following:



Syzygy said:


> • Key presses may be ignored, or acted on too late. For instance, a late-acting Down Arrow will hit just as you press Select, selecting the wrong item.
> • Trick Play button presses are usually ignored for the first few seconds after a recording begins playing.
> • Entering letters with the numeric keypad ("triple-tapping") frequently generates mistakes. For instance, pressing the '3' button twice quickly may generate 'DD' instead of 'E'.
> • Returning from a detailed show description to a list takes way too much time refreshing the list.
> ...


I don't have a problem with these either:



Syzygy said:


> The following problems can't be called accidents, like having a beetle crawl into the computer circuitry. Instead, they're supposedly the result of careful thought.
> 
> _User Interface:_
> 
> ...


The following things I have experienced, and would like to see fixed:



Syzygy said:


> • Search's incremental matching always clears the list of results if you enter an extra character that matches nothing.
> • 'Channels I Get' has always included some channels you can't get, leading the user to try to record unavailable shows.
> • A paused screen always flashes back on briefly and intermittently after the screen saver starts.


These, I have no idea if they're true, but I'll take your word for it:


Syzygy said:


> • From the To Do List, it takes two passes to record a low-priority episode while cancelling a higher-priority one. [See report]
> • From the Guide, you simply cannot succeed in recording a low-priority episode while cancelling a higher-priority one. [See report]


I use a universal remote, so again I don't know about these:


Syzygy said:


> • No dedicated Slow Motion key.
> • No Clear key.


These are merely wishlist type items, and everyone will want different things. My DVR doesn't make toast either, but I'm not going to put it on a bug list:


Syzygy said:


> • The Stop key dismisses the program you're watching - the Exit key shouldn't do it too.
> • Double Dash can delete items from some lists (with no nagging) but not from others.
> • The progress bar covers too much of the screen.
> • There's no way to make the progress bar go away quickly, automatically.
> ...


About 1 month ago I went out of town for a week and when I returned, the DVR was still paused where I had left it, so I this one seems to be false:


Syzygy said:


> • A recording paused during playback doesn't stay paused for very long if you leave the receiver on when turning off the TV.


So, IMO, all of your lists boil down to 3 things: 50 series limit, CIG, paused screen flashing. One is not a bug, one is being worked on (and is currently almost pefect) and one that's really nitpicking, since I don't look at the screen when it's paused anyway.


----------



## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Thanks for a helpful response, one of several.
> 
> DirecTV is silent on bugs and fixes, so there's no way of knowing what's still a bug. It's really pitiful that we should have to assume that a bug is gone simply because there are no recent reports of it.
> 
> ...


I think you've figured out why there's not already a "master bug list" available on the forum. This will be helpful for people and does give us a place to come if we are wondering if a bug has been around a while.

No slight was intended when I wondered about user error in the recording that didn't get recorded and wasn't in the history. I guess I just can't help but look at things like a developer. The bug description gives me absolutely zero information that I would need to solve bug. Well, not zero but very little. (I could see if there was a case where the DVR cancels a recording and then deletes the history or doesn't write a history record, depending on when the record is supposed to be written.) I would have no way of knowing why the show was deleted. (As a developer I would have assumed that the guide data changed to make the recording not longer valid, and that the DVR was working as designed, except for the history info.)

I'm sure you gave more information when you initially reported it, so that they try to troubleshoot the matter, but not everyone does. Without details, the bug reports don't really help in any way to fix the problem. With detailed bug reports, problems have a chance of getting fixed. I have to admit this is pet peeve of mine when I see issue reports that don't contain even the basic information needed to track down a problem.

And you make a good point about feedback of bug fixes. We can't know when something is fixed, or determined to not be a software issue. *Just* for example, your unrecorded program could be a guide data issue combined with a hardware error in writing the history file. It's still irritating to you, but nothing the developer can "fix". Then again, maybe they found the problem and fixed it, we just aren't aware of it.

Because of the above, I think that we do need to assume bugs are fixed if we don't see them in a certain period of time. Either that, or we track the date of last report, so people can make their own mind up. However, that's a lot of work.

Oh, and as to your mystery from your first post. Some of it is that new software causes a reboot. Reboots can always cause hardware issues, and reboots can reinitialize parts of the software. That software may assume that some of the data (such as series links, to do list, playlist) is good. If it is not, because of a previous bug or hardware issue, another issue may arise because of the bad data.

Also, there is a psychological effect of new software. People recognize things that were there previously, but they weren't paying attention. I've seen users of software swear up and down that "it never used to do this," after a software change when I know from personal observation, that "it has always worked that way." Therefore, some of the uptick in bug reports after software updates are just existing problems that the user has failed to notice, but are now aware of.


----------



## Bofurley (Oct 11, 2006)

He has way too much time!


----------



## Hutchinshouse (Sep 28, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> Here's my latest list of pure bugs. I've compiled and verified this list (along with the other lists in the posts that follow) over the last 12 days. Just yesterday the rollout of 0x03DE started for some DVR models (HR21, HR22, HR23 and R22); this new release may fix some bugs (and may introduce some).
> 
> I've omitted design deficiencies so that fanboys can't pretend not to see the bugs. I've also tried to omit problems caused by bad Guide data, and issues such as pixelization, dropouts and stutters, for which the blame seems to fall on poor signal quality.
> 
> ...


You forgot this one:

• No cup holders


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Hutchinshouse said:


> You forgot this one:
> 
> • No cup holders


With due respect to the OP, your post really is funny.

As others have also posted, I have not seen 98% of the OP issues either. No doubt that DirecTV or any other service is without hiccups, occasional problems, and flaws - nothing's perfect.

It's unfortunate that the OP seems to have so many issues - but I wouldn't characterize it either as anything even closely resembling "an average user experience". His opinion is certainly rightful to have in his situation, although if this lengthy list is valid...one would think the experience described would have encouraged many other folks to migrate to an alternative provider long before such a robust list came into play.

It appears that the OP is very close to moving elsewhere, and hopefully that experience meets their expectations.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

It seems as if most readers remain confused about what's a bug and what's a design deficiency. *Hutchinshouse*'s post quotes the *bug *list and appends an obvious  design deficiency (No cup holders).

I personally rely on the cup holder in my PC's optical-disk tray.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

With due respect, Frank, I think that you and I disagree on what is a bug and what is a design deficiency.


----------



## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

I also see these two issues on both of my HR20-700s

• Caller ID may work only intermittently. (Caller ID info is not always displayed on screen when the phone is ringing, even when other Caller ID devices and equipped phones show the info.)

• Bogus "Searching for Satellite (771)" error that goes away if you reboot. (This also affects OTA Tuners - Searching for Signal.)

And I would add that OTA channels occasionally get mapped incorrectly. For instance, tuning to the local OTA NBC station would actually receive the local OTA ABC station instead. Or, just tune to an unused OTA frequency resulting in a Searching for Signal. This happened a lot around the time of the national HD switch-over, and only occasionally now. A reboot fixes the problem.

I'm glad for DirecTV to add new features, but I do wish some of these basic reliability issues would be given higher priority.

I'll grudgingly admit there are some things I like better about the HR2x than my older DirecTivos and my HR10 that I still have in service. But, I always had nearly absolute confidence that the TiVo boxes would record what they were supposed to when they were supposed to. The HR2x boxes are pretty reliable at this point, but still fail to record shows for one reason or another much more often than the TiVo boxes did. And they require rebooting much more frequently - once a week vs. once a month.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> I want to assure you that no user error was involved in this problem, which I personally experienced: "An individual show you explicitly schedule and which gets added to the To Do List may still not get recorded, and as a rule there'll be no history entry." I reported it as an NR issue.
> 
> "A good start?" I'm plumb tuckered out! And here comes a new NR, which may fix some things, but how will I know?
> 
> Waiting for the new DirecTiVo. When it arrives, D* can continue with their bugfest without any comment from me.


I have never once seen this issue, and I have tried to recreate it to verify this issue, but I just can't get it to do it here, on any of my 7 DVR's.

You still feel many things that are design decisions are bugs, sorry, but I am with the Shadow on that one.

There are several things in there that you list as bugs that aren't even of ANY consequence, and have ZERO impact on the unit actually doing its job, like the need multiple passes to pick up programs to record...It does NOT matter when it adds programs, as long as it records them.. Again, I sometimes think they need to hide the darn to do list from everyone, so people would not concern themselves with how its filled, it makes no difference, your SL manager is what matters on that.

There is one or two items that are still guide data issues....

If I had made this kind of list with the same approach as you use for a tivo, its list would be even longer.... way longer... Which proves one point... Personal preference is still king of the land, no matter what is offered.

There are some things though that I could not agree with you more.. Slow mo, and anything that is press and hold needs to be completely redone... However, they aren't so important to me that they make me think any less of the box, the deficiencies of a tivo are far more predominant in my daily usage of a dvr...

It's great you take the time and care this much..

I look forward to the same kind of lists when the DirectvTivo hits the market and has as many issues...


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> In case anyone was wondering, that's 81 bugs and 75 design deficiencies.


 After reading your list of bugs/flaws I'm completely flabbergasted you're still with DirecTV. Especially your continual video/audio freezes, choppiness, and stuttering. That would drive me absolutely nuts. I am being completely serious and honest with you when I say I would leave DirecTV if I had even half as many problems as you've had. I know you've probably heard this a thousand times and I don't mean to piss you off, but I really think you have a problem with your equipment. Those video/audio issues are out of the norm. 

One thing I'm not sure I understand is what it means to have to wait a full three seconds to repeat a button press. :scratchin

BTW, using the timer on the HDNet Test Pattern recording, my replay button jumps back 6-7 seconds everytime, so I don't know why yours doesn't. Maybe you should record the Test Pattern (if you haven't already) and do some timing to completly describe the issue.

Mike


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

MicroBeta said:


> I know you've probably heard this a thousand times and I don't mean to piss you off, but I really think you have a problem with your equipment. Those video/audio issues are out of the norm.


I've suggested this I don't know how many times to get the receiver replaced. I don't think it's ever been done. No way I would sit with defective equipment and not get them replaced as it's very easy to do so.

And to think Tivo will be the savior. LOL. Yea, take a look at the Tivo forums lately? :lol:


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Syzygy said:


> In case anyone was wondering, that's 81 bugs and 75 design deficiencies.


I appreciated the effort. You are nothing if not thorough. Kudos. Ignore the haters; it appears that that is all they know and love.

Despite the list, I think we are still living with the top DVR available anywhere. I fully congratulate and support DTV and their efforts to improve the HR2x platform. That's great, but your list underlines that there is no room for them resting on their laurels, and that is how it should be. As can not always be said about these sorts of efforts, the odds are that they are listening to us. If history is any guide, they surely must be.

I wonder how many of these issues are being addressed? I don't mind a no-fix on a particular issue as long as it is recognized as an issue and effort is being made to fix it. I think what really bugs me is "improvements" that they claim they have made that just are not there, such as chronological ep listings inside alphabetically-listed folders. That stupid of an "oops!" should be immediately moved to the top of the list for the next release. I guess we'll see.


----------



## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Frank, do you consider countries that drive on the left have roads with design deficiencies or is it just the way they do it there?


----------



## Mark Walters (Sep 21, 2009)

Syzygy said:


> Here's my latest list of pure bugs. I've compiled and verified this list (along with the other lists in the posts that follow) over the last 12 days. Just yesterday the rollout of 0x03DE started for some DVR models (HR21, HR22, HR23 and R22); this new release may fix some bugs (and may introduce some).
> 
> I've omitted design deficiencies so that fanboys can't pretend not to see the bugs. I've also tried to omit problems caused by bad Guide data, and issues such as pixelization, dropouts and stutters, for which the blame seems to fall on poor signal quality.
> 
> ...


Syzygy - Could you give us a 2009 summary or compendium of the D* DVR bugs so we could compare and contrast with this year's?


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

PokerJoker said:


> I agree that the effort to compile this list is praiseworthy.
> 
> I would postulate that at least half of these issues trace back in some way (directly or indirectly) to the inadequate (slow) hardware. It would be interesting to know how many of these are suddenly "fixed" on the faster HR24.
> 
> ...


Never had that happen, but I wouldn't expect perfect performance from a 21-100 or any other HR ending in 100. But you all know that. That stuff just doesn't happen on my 20-700s or my 21-200 or my 21-700. A lot of the problems listed seem to system problems rather than HR problems.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> It seems as if most readers remain confused about what's a bug and what's a design deficiency. *Hutchinshouse*'s post quotes the *bug *list and appends an obvious  design deficiency (No cup holders).
> 
> I personally rely on the cup holder in my PC's optical-disk tray.


I used to teach a class for adults that was titled "Learning how to use a computer". A really basic class for folks who had no prior computer experience. Every time I taught it, some folks would put their coffee cups on that tray. True story. They just had no idea what that tray was meant for. 

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

cover said:


> I also see these two issues on both of my HR20-700s
> 
> • Caller ID may work only intermittently. (Caller ID info is not always displayed on screen when the phone is ringing, even when other Caller ID devices and equipped phones show the info.)


My nine 20-700s never fail to display the caller ID.



> • Bogus "Searching for Satellite (771)" error that goes away if you reboot. (This also affects OTA Tuners - Searching for Signal.)


Yet another thing that's never happened to me on the 20-700s. I have had that problem with a 21-700 and a dish realignment solved that problem. The 20-700s seem to have less problems with misaligned dishes than the rest of the HRs. (I don't have a 24, can't comment on them.)



> I'm glad for DirecTV to add new features, but I do wish some of these basic reliability issues would be given higher priority.
> 
> I'll grudgingly admit there are some things I like better about the HR2x than my older DirecTivos and my HR10 that I still have in service. But, I always had nearly absolute confidence that the TiVo boxes would record what they were supposed to when they were supposed to. The HR2x boxes are pretty reliable at this point, but still fail to record shows for one reason or another much more often than the TiVo boxes did. And they require rebooting much more frequently - once a week vs. once a month.


I rarely reboot my 20-700s, certainly not once a week. And they never fail to record a program if I set the recording parameters correctly. I really sounds as if you've got a system problem rather than a problem with your 20-700s.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> Frank, do you consider countries that drive on the left have roads with design deficiencies or is it just the way they do it there?


Oddly, there is a perfectly logical reason for countries that drive on different sides of the road. I won't go into it on the forum, but the logic is hard to find fault with.

Rich


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

It may just be me, but many of the items on these lists are long gone or are equipment/installation related. I cannot believe that one DVR has all these problems. It would be impossible to have a platform that bad.

Although the OP has admitted that these lists are gleaned from his experience and postings here (and maybe else), so I think it’s only fair to make a determination of the current status of these issues. It is not at all fair to say these are all currently issues if they are not.

Take blank recordings for instance. I haven’t had one of those for years.

I’ve never seen the Replay delay in operation and only jump back two seconds. Using the HDNet Test Pattern, I’ve consistently seen it jump 5-7 from the button press.

I don’t even understand what having to wait three full seconds before repeating a button press. I’ve never seen that and I’ve tried to replicate as many ways I can think on all three of my DVRs. I hope the OP can clarify that one because I may correctly understand the issue. It might be why I can’t replicate it.

I have seen a run on recording in years either. That isn’t to say no one else has, but I have two DVRs in the living room that record daily and I haven’t had one in a long time.

Ok, the 30-60 second video/audio freezes I’m afraid I have to call BS on. If that is happening on a regular basis then there is something wrong with the hardware/wiring and not the DVR/firmware design/coding. I’m sorry Syzygy but that certainly is not, nor has it ever been the way the receiver operates. I’ve had an HR since Feb ’07 and have never seen that...ever.

I don’t mean to chastise you, but you have listed everything that has ever been reported or seen. You need to at least appear like you’re trying to be objective. I could go back and do the exact same thing for any DVR and come up with a list just as long. Just because someone posts an issue doesn’t make it a flaw or bug with the DVR or the firmware, yet you say all these issues are just that. Heck, even you can’t possible believe that.

The HR series is not perfect. Nor is any other DVR out there. I get that you want TiVo but at least try to be objective. 

Mike


----------



## Blurayfan (Nov 16, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> • The presence of a VOD SD version of a film prevents the recording of a broadcast HD version.





Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean at all.


Stuart recently DirecTV pushed the SD version of an On Demand video The Proposal. Recording the HD version was not possible unless you were watching the program live, scheduling in advance failed. Those who wanted to record this program in HD from Starz were prevented with a message "The Proposal is available to Watch Now and has been added to your playlist.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

DVDKingdom said:


> Stuart recently DirecTV pushed the SD version of an On Demand video The Proposal. Recording the HD version was not possible unless you were watching the program live, scheduling in advance failed. Those who wanted to record this program in HD from Starz were prevented with a message "The Proposal is available to Watch Now and has been added to your playlist.


I had to setup a manual recording in order to get the HD version. Starz on demand was the problem. The system should have given me the option of recording the HD version. This is definitely a flaw (not a bug) in the firmware. I wonder if it's been fixed yet.

Mike


----------



## bird13 (Nov 3, 2009)

The criticism of your post is IMO, baffling, and I appreciate your effort. I don't understand the need to 'defend the honor' of a DVR....it's not like you're disrespecting a loved hometown sports hero, or 'Iron Man' fer cryin' out loud.

For those of us that are new to the HR2X (myself included) it's reassuring to see that a problem I might have experienced is not one that is unit specific, thus requiring a call to DTV.

Thank you.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bird13 said:


> The criticism of your post is IMO, baffling, and I appreciate your effort. I don't understand the need to 'defend the honor' of a DVR....it's not like you're disrespecting a loved hometown sports hero, or 'Iron Man' fer cryin' out loud.
> 
> For those of us that are new to the HR2X (myself included) it's reassuring to see that a problem I might have experienced is not one that is unit specific, thus requiring a call to DTV.
> 
> Thank you.


I'm sorry, but some of the criticism is valid.

Mike


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Mark Walters said:


> Syzygy - Could you give us a 2009 summary or compendium of the D* DVR bugs so we could compare and contrast with this year's?


It's at *A compendium of HR2x software problems* - which contained only 60 to 70 items, the last few of which were just sarcastic fun.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

rich584 said:


> A lot of the problems listed seem to [be] system problems rather than HR problems.


I did my best to include only problems that were clearly *not* system problems (such as a bad incoming signal, a misaligned dish, bad BBCs or connectors, flaky hard drive, and so on).

For example, the following problem still exists, but was omitted from the 2010 list because I accept the notion that it's a problem with DirecTV's MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 transcoders, which turn small interruptions in the MPEG-2 stream into large disturbances in the MPEG-4 stream. (If that's so, then the new TiVo will have the same problem.)

• Sporadic bursts of audio dropouts (which used to be shorter Brrrrpps)


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> I did my best to include only problems that were clearly *not* system problems (such as a bad incoming signal, a misaligned dish, bad BBCs or connectors, flaky hard drive, and so on).


While I think you tried to, some of the issues sure look related to them.
I have a good system and simply don't have many of your bullet items.
:shrug:


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> For example, the following problem still exists, but was omitted from the 2010 list because I accept the notion that it's a problem with DirecTV's MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 transcoders, which turn small interruptions in the MPEG-2 stream into large disturbances in the MPEG-4 stream. (If that's so, then the new TiVo will have the same problem.)
> 
> • Sporadic bursts of audio dropouts (which used to be shorter Brrrrpps)


There is only one receiver that has this, "THAT IS NOT" related to the SAT feed transcoding and Dolby. I'm working with El Segundo directly over this one and it is software related.
ALL MPEG-4 receivers are affected by the transcoding issues/problems, so this isn't a DVR issue.


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> One thing I'm not sure I understand is what it means to have to wait a full three seconds to repeat a button press. :scratchin





MicroBeta said:


> I don't even understand what having to wait three full seconds before repeating a button press. I've never seen that and I've tried to replicate as many ways I can think on all three of my DVRs. I hope the OP can clarify that one because I may correctly understand the issue. It might be why I can't replicate it.


I apparently missed what you're referring to, but it might have to do with an issue I've seen with the HR23-700... namely that it can be hard to change the channel (among other things).

You essentially have to wait so many seconds in between hitting a number before hitting another one... and in so doing, the HR23-700 often "times out" prior to hitting all three numbers... and don't get me started if you're trying to change the channel to an OTA channel with four button presses!

It can also be a pain when you're going through the Playlist or the Guide as well as many other menu functions. 

*However, I am PROUD to say that this is now GREATLY improved with the newest NR.* 

~Alan


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Alan Gordon said:


> I apparently missed what you're referring to, but it might have to do with an issue I've seen with the HR23-700... namely that it can be hard to change the channel (among other things).
> 
> You essentially have to wait so many seconds in between hitting a number before hitting another one... and in so doing, the HR23-700 often "times out" prior to hitting all three numbers... and don't get me started if you're trying to change the channel to an OTA channel with four button presses!
> 
> ...


This is what I'm asking about...



Syzygy said:


> The following problems can't be called accidents, like having a beetle crawl into the computer circuitry. Instead, they're supposedly the result of careful thought.
> 
> _User Interface:_
> 
> • The remote waits a full 3 seconds before allowing a key to repeat.





Syzygy said:


> So. Yet another design mistake.
> 
> And I suppose the remote still makes you hold down a key 3 seconds before it repeats?


It's different each time Syzygy posts it so I'm unclear as to what it means.

Mike


----------



## mjbvideo (Jan 15, 2006)

Reading the list jogged my memory. I recently had a show 'run away' and record for hours upon hours.
I appreciate his effort. Let's push DirecTV to continuously improve but focus on fixing the basic issues that affect a lot of people. 
As for me, I don't report my bugs as much because I have consumed too much DTV Kool Aid and I'm just tired of it. I've had their techs out here to look at my system and they tweak everything but the DVR's all continue to have the same issues. 
So the HR24 is the latest savior. How is that going to help us slugs who are stuck with the older machines? 
IMHO, I think they need a fresh set of eyes in their software design group. Get the software "A-Team" in their and optimize the code so that is works well in all their DVR's.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> There is only one receiver that has this, "THAT IS NOT" related to the SAT feed transcoding and Dolby. I'm working with El Segundo directly over this one and it is software related.
> 
> ALL MPEG-4 receivers are affected by the transcoding issues/problems, so this isn't a DVR issue.


I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that, while there still transcoding problems that affect all MPEG-4 receivers, there is one particular receiver type that has audio dropouts caused by its own firmware? If so, pray tell, what model is that?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that, while there still transcoding problems that affect all MPEG-4 receivers, there is one particular receiver type that has audio dropouts caused by its own firmware? If so, pray tell, what model is that?


There is a system wide problem with Dolby in some MPEG-4 encoders. This has been an ongoing problem. First it was the lipsync problems, then the brripps ["fix one"] and now they mute them [fix 2]. This still isn't "fixed", as I see it. Some AVRs don't handle this very well, while other aren't as bad. Fixing the loss of DD5.1 IMO is the real fix.
As to what I'm involved with, I'll leave that for those that have read my posts.
Not everything is in the DVR.

Now to show [I hope] that I don't have rose colored glasses as I look at DirecTV:
From being here and helping others for several years, there is a design flaw in the DVRs with the use of a very crappy power supply. They are so sensitive to voltage changes or noise on the AC lines that this causes all sorts of receiver issues. A customer shouldn't need to buy & use a UPS, under normal use/conditions, to have their receiver work.
They should work with anything from 110 to 126 volts, but don't always.
Turning on a dimmer switch or a florescent light shouldn't cause a 771 error.

"Blank recordings" may not be in the DVR, but in the dish to receiver link, since the receiver may send the tune signal and if the dish doesn't tune, then the DVR records "nothing". Had you been watching this live, you'd see the 771 message, but this doesn't get recorded, so later you have no idea this was the cause.

Yes there are things wrong. Some are in the DVR, some at the SAT/uplink end, and some may simply come down to environment issues like a LCD display interfering with the IR signal.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

MicroBeta said:


> One thing I'm not sure I understand is what it means to have to wait a full three seconds to repeat a button press. :scratchin





MicroBeta said:


> I don't even understand what having to wait three full seconds before repeating a button press. I've never seen that...





MicroBeta said:


> [Syzygy, in Design Errors]_ • The remote waits a full 3 seconds before allowing a key to repeat._
> [Syzygy, in another thread]_ And I suppose the remote still makes you hold down a key 3 seconds before it repeats?_
> 
> It's different each time Syzygy posts it so I'm unclear as to what it means.


Just for MicroBeta, I'm revising the Design Error item to say:

• The remote will not repeat automatically unless you hold down a key for a full 3 seconds.

I hope that's clear.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Just for MicroBeta, I'm revising the Design Error item to say:
> 
> • The remote will not repeat automatically unless you hold down a key for a full 3 seconds.
> 
> I hope that's clear.


Not to me, it isn't. What are you trying to do when you have to press the key for a full 3 seconds? I'm not busting chops, I truly don't understand what you are trying to say.

Rich


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Trying to slide up/down in a list, a menu, or the Guide, one item at a time.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Trying to slide up/down a list or a menu, one item at a time.


So, for instance, you're on the Playlist and you can't go from one program to another without waiting three seconds or more?

Rich


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> I hope that's clear.


It is for me, and while I was wrong about the issue you were referring to, I can state that I've noticed this as well...

~Alan


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Just for MicroBeta, I'm revising the Design Error item to say:
> 
> • The remote will not repeat automatically unless you hold down a key for a full 3 seconds.
> 
> I hope that's clear.





Syzygy said:


> Trying to slide up/down in a list, a menu, or the Guide, one item at a time.


Ok.

I've never seen it do that. I just tried in the playlist and guide on four different receivers and it does not do that. AFAIK, it never has.

For me it takes about a second, and I'm pretty sure the delay is to make sure you don't start scrolling when you don't intend to.

AAMOF, it's really darned quick on my HR24 and H24. 

I almost exclusively use a universal remote but I used the DirecTV remote for this test.

Mike


----------



## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

HR24 that I have now handles a few of those issues.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> Ok.
> 
> I've never seen it do that. I just tried in the playlist and guide on four different receivers and it does not do that. AFAIK, it never has.


I tried it too and I agree with you. I'll have to try my son's 21-200 and see what his does. I know the 21-700 is slower than my 20-700s in every way and I'd expect that to be the same in comparison to the 20-700 when scrolling, but I'll try the one that I have left.



> For me it takes about a second, and I'm pretty sure the delay is to make sure you don't start scrolling when you don't intend to.


It's about the same delay on my 20-700s.

Rich


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> • The remote will not repeat automatically unless you hold down a key for a full 3 seconds.





rich584 said:


> So, for instance, you're on the Playlist and you can't go from one program to another without waiting three seconds or more?


No, I can't go from the 2nd program to the 3rd, and so on, without waiting three seconds or more between the 1st and the 2nd.


MicroBeta said:


> I've never seen it do that... For me it takes about a second, and I'm pretty sure the delay is to make sure you don't start scrolling when you don't intend to... I used the DirecTV remote for this test.





rich584 said:


> I tried it too and I agree with you...


It looks to me like I have a 3-second-delay remote and you guys all have a one-second-delay remote. Maybe I'll call D* about getting a new remote.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> No, I can't go from the 2nd program to the 3rd, and so on, without waiting three seconds or more between the 1st and the 2nd.
> 
> It looks to me like I have a 3-second-delay remote and you guys all have a one-second-delay remote. Maybe I'll call D* about getting a new remote.


HR20 & stock remote here with no problems. press and hold takes "maybe" a sec before it kicks in.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Syzygy said:


> It looks to me like I have a 3-second-delay remote and you guys all have a one-second-delay remote. Maybe I'll call D* about getting a new remote.


How about a new receiver? May solve a lot of your issues.


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> How about a new receiver? May solve a lot of your issues.


Why would he finally listen? :lol:


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

bird13 said:


> The criticism of your post is IMO, baffling, and I appreciate your effort. I don't understand the need to 'defend the honor' of a DVR....it's not like you're disrespecting a loved hometown sports hero, or 'Iron Man' fer cryin' out loud.
> 
> For those of us that are new to the HR2X (myself included) it's reassuring to see that a problem I might have experienced is not one that is unit specific, thus requiring a call to DTV.
> 
> Thank you.


I have noted that some of his points I agree with, but others I don't. It's not about defending the hr's its about explain to people that he has an unusual amount of issues, and there is something else going on with his setup that needs to get fixed to get rid of the biggest issues. He is stating it like these are all full system wide issues that everyone is seeing, and thats just not true.

He also makes it sound like we all want the dvrs to work the way he prefers... With all do respect, thats just not true.

He wants a tivo, period... thats fine, but to say they are bad because they don't work like a tivo is almost insulting to me, cause I hate tivos, and don't ever want one (unless they make a LOT of changes) in my system again.

I have personally tried to replicate many of his issues, and can't do it, across multiple receivers too....

Other issues he notes, I can easily replicate, and have noted in various ways over the past as well....


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> • Video may freeze for a few seconds while the audio continues normally.


This is actually a feature .. Due to the way MPEG4 is decoded, Audio is available much more quickly after a trick play .. syncing up so to speak. There are multiple ways to deal with the problem, but one good way is to have a frozen video frame (which is ahead of current position) sit and wait while the audio actually catches up.

Certainly the lip sync issue was worse than waiting for a few seconds (really 1 to 3 at most) to catch up is not a problem. This is something that really only happens during trick play functions. If you do a lot of skipping around, you will see this more than those that don't.

As for many of your other "video errors" .. I'm sorry, it just sounds like you either have a dish alignment problem or (more likely) a hard drive that is just not working perfectly. Have you run the disk surface scans? That might actually clear up some of the pixelation/stuttering that you are having. First I'd say push and hold the {INFO} button .. then run the system tests. This should let you know if the dish alignment is too far off or if perhaps there are other things going on.


----------



## OverThereTooMuch (Aug 19, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> I'm sorry, but some of the criticism is valid.


Some, yes. Most, no.

I am very glad that this forum software gives people the ability to ignore users.


----------



## Bruce M. (Oct 31, 2009)

What is the difference betwen a "bug" and a "design deficiency" and why should it matter to a consumer? I get "design decision". But I don't get why "design deficiency" is in any way extenuating or mitigating.

I switched from Tivo to DTV awhile back, and you know what I miss the most? Strange enough, it's one push slo-mo. I use a universal remote as well, but can't figure out how to program it to a one push.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Bruce M. said:


> What is the difference between a "bug" and a "design deficiency" and why should it matter to a consumer? I get "design decision". But I don't get why "design deficiency" is in any way extenuating or mitigating.


*A bug* is a flaw for a capability or feature, compared to how it is designed to actually function.

*A design deficiency* is a subjective (aka opinion) view on how a feature or capability should work, as opposed to how it actually does function.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *A design deficiency* is a subjective (aka opinion) view on how a feature or capability should work.


Looking at a few of my "Design Errors", I suppose it's only my (invalid) opinion that a designer should *never* have said or thought anything like:

_"For an option in the Guide and the Playlist, let's call filtering 'Sorting' and be sure to drop most of the information from the so-called 'sorted' list. All a user should see is the program title, the channel number and the duration."_

_"Menus and lists don't need to remember their last position."_

_"It's OK for the Exit key to dismiss the program being watched if the screen manages to clear itself first, or even if the screen is about to clear itself."_

It's my belief that these are *objectively* bad ideas.


----------



## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> _"It's OK for the Exit key to dismiss the program being watched if the screen manages to clear itself first, or even if the screen is about to clear itself."_
> 
> It's my belief that these are *objectively* bad ideas.


Love the last sentence. It is my *belief* that these are *objectively* bad ideas. Guess you don't see the irony.

BTW, the Exit key functionality is one that I get frustrated with my Fios DVR because it does not work that way. (well, it does when you are in an on demand program but not a recorded one, but that is another story). I do believe there was a large thread on the EXIT key functionality a while back, so I guess it is not so dropdead obvious on how it should behave.


----------



## JBernardK (Aug 16, 2006)

Syzygy, thanks for your post. It is most helpful to those of us that are considering going to (or coming back to) Directv. It does not really matter if something is a bug or a design defect. If it is something that is important to an individual it can be used to help with a decision. There are people here that have been defending the HR's, for whatever reason, since they were first released. They can safely be ignored by those looking to make and informed decision.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

JBernardK said:


> Syzygy, thanks for your post. It is most helpful to those of us that are considering going to (or coming back to) Directv. It does not really matter if something is a bug or a design defect. If it is something that is important to an individual it can be used to help with a decision. There are people here that have been defending the HR's, for whatever reason, since they were first released. They can safely be ignored by those looking to make and informed decision.


Not defending only suggesting not all on this list would be a problem for someone looking into getting one of the HR2x.
As bad as "the fans" could skew the results, this could be skewed the other way.
"perhaps" the truth is somewhere in between.


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

JBernardK said:


> ...There are people here that have been defending the HR's, for whatever reason, since they were first released. They can safely be ignored by those looking to make and informed decision.


So, ignore those who defend/support the HR2x, but show praise, listen to opposing views and accept these flawed lists to make an informed decision?  Seems a bit one sided.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Doug Brott said:


> This is actually a feature .. Due to the way MPEG4 is decoded, Audio is available much more quickly after a trick play .. syncing up so to speak. There are multiple ways to deal with the problem, but one good way is to have a frozen video frame (which is ahead of current position) sit and wait while the audio actually catches up.


Actually it's not just an MPEG4 thing. My Windows 7 Media Center DVR on my HTPC does the same thing. When you come out of a FFW a lot of times video will be frozen for 1-2 seconds while the audio "catches" up so that it's synced up properly. And this is MPEG2 OTA HD.

It's a design decision that some DVR manufacturers make to prevent lip sync issues.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JBernardK said:


> Syzygy, thanks for your post. It is most helpful to those of us that are considering going to (or coming back to) Directv. It does not really matter if something is a bug or a design defect. If it is something that is important to an individual it can be used to help with a decision. There are people here that have been defending the HR's, for whatever reason, since they were first released. They can safely be ignored by those looking to make and informed decision.


If you think I'm a fan, consider this: D* has models that end in 100. That denotes the manufacturer. I wouldn't have one in my home. I just sent two 21-700s back to D* for no reason other than they were so much slower than my 20-700s. In fact, the only HR that I will accept from D* is the 20-700. They have been offering me, at no cost, HRs for about a year and I haven't accepted their offer because I have enough 20-700s to cover replacements and back up all my recordings.

I'll admit to being a fan of the 20-700s, but not the rest of the HR lineup. I haven't tried a 24-500, so I can't comment on that.

Having said all that, I can't agree with the TS about all the complaints he has about the HRs, but I'm only using my 20-700s as a benchmark unit. If he has 20-700s that are doing all the things he's complaining about, he's got a problem with the feeds to those 20-700s. Mine are pretty trouble-free.

Rich


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Rich, who is "the TS"?


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> Rich, who is "the TS"?


I that's an abbreviation for "Thread Starter", AKA, YOU! 

~Alan


----------



## JBernardK (Aug 16, 2006)

rich584 said:


> If you think I'm a fan, consider this: D* has models that end in 100. That denotes the manufacturer. I wouldn't have one in my home. I just sent two 21-700s back to D* for no reason other than they were so much slower than my 20-700s. In fact, the only HR that I will accept from D* is the 20-700. They have been offering me, at no cost, HRs for about a year and I haven't accepted their offer because I have enough 20-700s to cover replacements and back up all my recordings.
> 
> I'll admit to being a fan of the 20-700s, but not the rest of the HR lineup. I haven't tried a 24-500, so I can't comment on that.
> 
> ...


So are you saying that the actual manufacturer of the unit has a bearing on whether it works as advertised? How do you get to choose? I thought that D* does not let you choose which model--never mind manufacturer--that you will get?


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

JBernardK said:


> Syzygy, thanks for your post. It is most helpful to those of us that are considering going to (or coming back to) Directv. It does not really matter if something is a bug or a design defect. If it is something that is important to an individual it can be used to help with a decision. There are people here that have been defending the HR's, for whatever reason, since they were first released. They can safely be ignored by those looking to make and informed decision.


My only problem with the list is that it contains a lot of issues that would be unrelated to the design/firmware. The OP makes no distinction and anyone reading it would assume these are common occurrences. They are not.

How can anyone make an informed decision if you're telling them to ignore anyone who disagrees with the OP?

Because, that's what you've done. Make no mistake about when you post a comment like that it tells the reader to avoid the supporters and only believe the naysayers. It's unfair and completely false to assume that any contrary opinions are false. Do you really mean to call all the contrary postesr liars?

Mike


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

JBernardK said:


> Syzygy, thanks for your post. It is most helpful to those of us that are considering going to (or coming back to) Directv.


Anyone using that list as a factor in their decision making process is making a mistake.


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

spartanstew said:


> Anyone using that list as a factor in their decision making process is making a mistake.


Ditto!

~Alan


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

My hope is that people will use that list as one person's opinion, not authoritative. Just as my opinion is not authoritative. We have a large number of users with different setups and I think the only way to really get a good picture of what's going on is to look at the experiences of a lot of people.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> My hope is that people will use that list as one person's opinion, not authoritative. Just as my opinion is not authoritative. We have a large number of users with different setups and I think the only way to really get a good picture of what's going on is to look at the experiences of a lot of people.


"but I read it on the internet" so it must be true.

Anybody can "filter" what they want to promote their desired results.


This is a POS and always has been
This is the best thing since sliced bread
Neither are true in my eyes.
YMMV


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Rich, who is "the TS"?


That would be you, the Thread Starter. When the forum changed from OP to TS I started calling the OP the TS. Look at your avatar, it says "Thread Starter". Seems appropriate. 

Rich


----------



## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

JBernardK said:


> Syzygy, thanks for your post. It is most helpful to those of us that are considering going to (or coming back to) Directv. It does not really matter if something is a bug or a design defect. If it is something that is important to an individual it can be used to help with a decision. There are people here that have been defending the HR's, for whatever reason, since they were first released. They can safely be ignored by those looking to make and informed decision.


Actually, anyone wanting to make an informed decision would ask.

1. How often does this bugs/design defects occur?
2. To how many did this issue occur?
3. How long ago was there any report of this issue?
4. For how many is the issue still occuring?
5. Are there causes for this issue (such as hardware) that may make it more or less likely for this issue to affect me?
6. Is there a work around for this issue that won't annoy me more than the issue itself?

To take this bug list and think that most of the bugs affect even a majority of users would be a mistake. I might even go so far as to say that most of the bugs affect a small number of customers. Of course those issues that are functioning as designed affect everyone. If you think it is a poor design, then you would have to consider that a design defect in your opinion.


----------



## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

JBernardK said:


> Syzygy, thanks for your post. It is most helpful to those of us that are considering going to (or coming back to) Directv. It does not really matter if something is a bug or a design defect. If it is something that is important to an individual it can be used to help with a decision. There are people here that have been defending the HR's, for whatever reason, since they were first released. They can safely be ignored by those looking to make and informed decision.


Yes, by all means, listen to a guy who is an admitted Tivo evangelist who nitpicks the heck out of the DirecTV DVR. Always listen to the guy who has an admitted agenda. You can be sure that his information is unslanted and the only truth.


----------



## bird13 (Nov 3, 2009)

tonyd79 said:


> Yes, by all means, listen to a guy who is an admitted Tivo evangelist who nitpicks the heck out of the DirecTV DVR. Always listen to the guy who has an admitted agenda. You can be sure that his information is unslanted and the only truth.


Since I'm new here, I must be missing something. So apparently the 'TS' prefers the old Tivo unit, thus, he's not to be believed and this is actually some sort of conspiracy? :lol:

I don't understand what the point to that ('agenda') would be, or what it could possibly accomplish; I simply see his compendium as a tool I might utilize as a reference for something that may occur with one of my HR's. And if it was one mentioned on that list would very much put my mind at ease, while saving me a phone call to DTV. :shrug:


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

JBernardK said:


> Syzygy, thanks for your post. It is most helpful to those of us that are considering going to (or coming back to) Directv. It does not really matter if something is a bug or a design defect. If it is something that is important to an individual it can be used to help with a decision. There are people here that have been defending the HR's, for whatever reason, since they were first released. They can safely be ignored by those looking to make and informed decision.


Here is why there is a big difference.. And you are wrong... You don't see me calling tivos lack of one touch record a design deficiency.. Its just a horrible design decision IMO. However, anything like this is a design defciency according to the TS...

The HR20 had HUGE issues when it was first release years ago.. They are now for the most part, gone... In fact, my folks have not had one issue with their HRs (including one hr21-700 and 3 hr20-700) in more than 2 years (I do ce's, so I have hardly used NR's over th last couple years, so I won't even count my experience)

And I have noted plenty of things I would like to see changed... SO telling people to ignore me because I don't agree with his list and the way its stated and put together is a major insult to me personally, and many others around here that are extremely helpful to others in fixing issues they have when we can... We disagree with parts of his list, not all, and our opinions should in no way count less than his, especially considering some of his complaints are in completely unrepeatable by many of us, cause I know I and several others have tried to repeat them.. Heck, even some others who have had major issues with some of the units aren't even buying into his list....

Its unfortunate that many people will be blinded and not see that some of his complaints are simply because it doesn't work like a tivo...


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

DogLover said:


> Actually, anyone wanting to make an informed decision would ask.
> 
> 1. How often does this bugs/design defects occur?
> 2. To how many did this issue occur?
> ...


The problem is his post makes it sound like this is a reality for all people period... And those who say I don't see 90% of the issues are being told we are wrong.. How is that possible?

And as other have said, more than half the stuff is not an issue, its his opinion.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bird13 said:


> Since I'm new here, I must be missing something. So apparently the 'TS' prefers the old Tivo unit, thus, he's not to be believed and this is actually some sort of conspiracy? :lol:
> 
> I don't understand what the point to that ('agenda') would be, or what it could possibly accomplish; I simply see his compendium as a tool I might utilize as a reference for something that may occur with one of my HR's. And if it was one mentioned on that list would very much put my mind at ease, while saving me a phone call to DTV. :shrug:


What you are missing is context. You would have to go back to the DirecTV TiVo thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174544

Not only that but the previous versions of the DirecTV TiVo thread.

The TS does have an agenda with his lists, and that is to show how much better it would be to have TiVo. Nothing more than that.

Being new here you should do a little searching through the threads for the last three years and investigate the TS's claims before you begin naysaying those of us who disagree with him. You will find that many of those issues don't exist. The TS even admits that some portion of those lists were from posts he read from others without regard to whether or not they are accurate or are no longer an issue...which is my major problem with those lists. They are a compilation of complaints. If one wanted to read the forums long enough, one could produce just as long a list for TiVo, or anything else for that matter.

What we have are people, who take those lists at face value, without actually verifying anything, and then turn around and complain about those who disagree with the TS. The fact is there is a lot wrong with those lists and if you do a little research you'll see that it would be a very, very poor "tool [you] might utilize as a reference", because there is so much wrong with it that you couldn't make an informed decision.

Do not take my word for any of what I've just posted. AAMOF, I don't want you to _believe_ a word of it. Instead, do the research yourself; search the threads, search other forums, and then make up your mind. Then if you agree with the TS, at least you will have all the information to base your opinion on.

Mike


----------



## EyeRonik1 (Nov 26, 2007)

It's funny watching all the fanboys react so violently to a list of facts. I have experienced many of these problems. Some are trivial, some have been fixed, but they show a lack of attention to detail and an incomplete understanding of their customers. Most are frustrating because a competent product marketing manager could just clean them up in a rev or two.

The design center of the DirecTV boxes are to allow people who watch live TV to record their favorite shows when they aren't around. The design center of Tivo's is to allow people to never need to watch live TV. 

Tivo users expect more from their boxes. We expect a Lexus and are given a Toyota pickup truck. Yes, the pickup truck does a few things the Lexus doesn't, but it's not the same.


----------



## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Here's my latest list of pure bugs.


Is this list for 2010 only (thread title) or another more expanded time frame? It seems like a lot of issues for only five months.


Syzygy said:


> I've compiled and verified this list (along with the other lists in the posts that follow) over the last 12 days. Just yesterday the rollout of 0x03DE started for some DVR models (HR21, HR22, HR23 and R22); this new release may fix some bugs (and may introduce some).


 Could you please explain what criteria you used to verify your list. (Others posts, personal experience, reviews etc.)



Syzygy said:


> Corrections are welcome. I've verified that any bugs that are reproducible still exist.


 Are there any bugs that are reproducible that don't exist? I'm missing something here.


Syzygy said:


> Some intermittent problems may have been fixed secretly.


 I would like to try and verify on my own any of the currently reproducible bugs. Is there any way to identify that subset in your list? At this time I have no interest in the intermitant/secretly fixed items. I only have one model of HRxx. Would that hinder my ability to duplicate issues?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

My last post in this thread.
The list is flawed, though has some true/valid points.
My guess is 1 out of 10 have validity, but since I haven't used every function or situation listed I'll say 2 out of 10 have validity.
This means 80% of the items are false, or are related to defective hardware or system.
Anybody posting anything along this line are told they are DirecTV Fans, by others who "have no agenda", but merely agreeing with "the truth", though this truth is based on 80% falsehoods.

This thread is and will continue to go nowhere, other than turning into personal attacks for what ever reasons.

"I get it", good by, as it moves to my ignore list


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

EyeRonik1 said:


> I have experienced many of these problems. Some are trivial, some have been fixed...


If any of them have been fixed, they shouldn't have gotten onto my list. As I've said before in this thread, DirecTV's policy of _omerta_ means that I have no way of knowing what's fixed short of my not being able to reproduce a supposedly repeatable problem.

So please tell us all what you think has been fixed.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

drpjr said:


> Is this list for 2010 only (thread title) or another more expanded time frame? It seems like a lot of issues for only five months.


It's merely my current list; that is, not 2009's list.


drpjr said:


> Could you please explain what criteria you used to verify your list.


My experience and testing, and others' posts.


drpjr said:


> I would like to try and verify on my own any of the currently reproducible bugs. Is there any way to identify that subset in your list?


I'm working on that. I'm planning to dim (gray) the non-reproducible bugs.


drpjr said:


> I only have one model of HRxx. Would that hinder my ability to duplicate issues?


Yes, some models have unique problems, but I think they may all be intermittent, hence not easily reproducible. Others in this forum know exactly which models have which problems, but I don't. I'm not a "friend of DirecTV" like they are. Being a "FoD" means keeping quiet like D* does.

As noted in the original post, bugs related to response time are probably not present in the HR24.


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Isn't the $40-$60 ECF at this point worth it not to have to deal with these issues?


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm not under contract with D* — no ECF (Early Cancellation Fee) or ETF (Early Termination Fee) for me. In 2008, when I got an HR21 to "replace" my expensive HR10 (which I kept, of course), no contract extension was required.

I'm waiting patiently (well, maybe not so patiently ) for the new DirecTiVo.


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

EyeRonik1 said:


> It's funny watching all the fanboys react so violently to a list of facts. I have experienced many of these problems. Some are trivial, some have been fixed, but they show a lack of attention to detail and an incomplete understanding of their customers. Most are frustrating because a competent product marketing manager could just clean them up in a rev or two.


I think people know me well enough to know by now that I'm not a DirecTV "fanboy"... well, I take that back, I am a "DirecTV fanboy", but they should know me well enough to know that I am NOT a "HR2x fanboy".

That being said, *this list is FAR FROM FACT*. I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon of saying that Syzygy's pushing an agenda, because he very well may be calling it as he sees it, but that doesn't make it correct.

Several of the "bugs" he mentions, I agree with.... but in the three years (geez... it seems longer) that I've had an HR20-700... it's been virtually bug-free.... and in NO WAY as bug-ridden as the list might make one consider it to be. I've had multiple complaints about my HR23-700 this past year... mainly due to general usage problems associated with it's speed, and while I wouldn't recommend an HR23-700 to anyone, the recent NR has GREATLY improved it's speed.

I'm sorry you've had such bad luck with the HR2x boxes... as I've said, I haven't had the best time with my HR23-700 either, but just because other people haven't experienced these problems don't make them fanboys... though it's possible they may be in the absence of problems! 



EyeRonik1 said:


> The design center of the DirecTV boxes are to allow people who watch live TV to record their favorite shows when they aren't around. The design center of Tivo's is to allow people to never need to watch live TV.


On this we agree, and I've been saying it for years... most recently in the TiVo thread.

However, that is a DESIGN CHOICE. It's not a design choice I agree with, but it's certainly NOT A BUG.



EyeRonik1 said:


> Tivo users expect more from their boxes. We expect a Lexus and are given a Toyota pickup truck. Yes, the pickup truck does a few things the Lexus doesn't, but it's not the same.


Though this was meant rather harshly, as someone whose two favorite car companies are Toyota and Lexus, I find this a someone fitting comparison since I'd take either one and would be quite happy with a Toyota pickup! 

~Alan


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

EyeRonik1 said:


> It's funny watching all the fanboys react so violently to a list of facts. I have experienced many of these problems. Some are trivial, some have been fixed, but they show a lack of attention to detail and an incomplete understanding of their customers. Most are frustrating because a competent product marketing manager could just clean them up in a rev or two.
> 
> The design center of the DirecTV boxes are to allow people who watch live TV to record their favorite shows when they aren't around. The design center of Tivo's is to allow people to never need to watch live TV.
> 
> Tivo users expect more from their boxes. We expect a Lexus and are given a Toyota pickup truck. Yes, the pickup truck does a few things the Lexus doesn't, but it's not the same.


If something is fixed, then is it currently a bug?

If something is reported but is irreproducible by the originator or anyone else is that a bug?

If so you could compile as long a list for anything. IMHO, not a fair assessment of the current state of something (in this case the HR series).

Yeah, I'm be a fanboy, but at least I try to be objective.

Mike


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> My last post in this thread.
> The list is flawed, though has some true/valid points.
> My guess is 1 out of 10 have validity, but since I haven't used every function or situation listed I'll say 2 out of 10 have validity.
> This means 80% of the items are false, or are related to defective hardware or system.
> ...


While I give *Syzygy *kudos for the effort he put into this, I'd have to agree with *VOS *on the "bugs". I'm pretty "OCD" when it comes to testing, and I've only encountered about 10% of those issues, if that many. It appears to me that many of these are "one-off" or random issues that were reported by folks in past issues threads, and not issues that lots of users generally agree need addressing.

I am on board with about 25% of the observations on the "design" list, many which are subjective, and some on our long-standing Wish List. As I said in a previous post, addressing these would be "gilding the lily", IMHO, as opposed to "must have".


----------



## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Yes, some models have unique problems, but I think they may all be intermittent, hence not easily reproducible. Others in this forum know exactly which models have which problems, but I don't. I'm not a "friend of DirecTV" like they are. Being a "FoD" means keeping quiet like D* does.


I'm sorry, but this statement is so totally out of line, that I, too am done with this thread. To accuse others of this type of deception without any evidence is just wrong. By not including specifics, you have painted a disparaging picture of a large segment of this board.

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were trying to be helpful to the other HR2x users out there. If find that I am not longer able to do so.


----------



## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

EyeRonik1 said:


> It's funny watching all the fanboys react so violently to a list of facts.


Wait a second. I have to stop laughing before I answer this post. "List of facts?" Wow. I looked through the list and found many that are not facts. I have had next to NO problems with my three HR2x boxes in all the time I have had them. Or maybe you want to include the "fact" that only one person's remote takes 3 seconds to respond to repeating the button push. 


EyeRonik1 said:


> The design center of the DirecTV boxes are to allow people who watch live TV to record their favorite shows when they aren't around. The design center of Tivo's is to allow people to never need to watch live TV.


Uh? They use the exact same paradigm for live versus recorded TV. Both have live trick play, both have prioritized recording. Both have pretty much the same logic in how recordings are performed and stored and accessed. Where do you get that Tivo is intended to never need to watch live TV? Wonder why they bother with live TV at all (gee, Tivo even has a button that brings you immediately to Live TV and full time LIVE buffers and had them before DirecTV...sounds like Tivo is into live TV).



EyeRonik1 said:


> Tivo users expect more from their boxes. We expect a Lexus and are given a Toyota pickup truck. Yes, the pickup truck does a few things the Lexus doesn't, but it's not the same.


Now this is too damned funny. That is why my Series 3 Tivo rebooted it self at least twice a week. That is why Tivo is horrible at keeping up with cable TV lineup changes. You can expect whatever you want. I haven't seen it from Tivo in quite some time. Maybe the Premiere puts them back in the spotlight. I don't know. I gave up after more than a year on the HD Tivo.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JBernardK said:


> So are you saying that the actual manufacturer of the unit has a bearing on whether it works as advertised?


Quite a bearing. Some folks will use the time worn "all HRs are functionally equal" phrase. While this is true in some contexts, it is really not an indicator of how well the HRs actually function. So, yes, the actual manufacturer of the HRs does have an important bearing on the way that the HRs function. If you read the threads that compare the various models and manufacturers you will see what I mean. I'm not asking anybody to take me at my word, read the posts, there are important differences between manufacturers and models and even between models manufactured by the same manufacturer. For instance, Pace makes the 20-700, the 21-700 and the 23-700. While the 21-700 is as reliable as the 20-700, the speed of the 21-700 is much slower than the 20-700. Same holds true with the 23-700 when compared to the 20-700.



> How do you get to choose? I thought that D* does not let you choose which model--never mind manufacturer--that you will get?


For reasons that will become clear, I'm not gonna post that info. If you PM me, I'll be glad to go over that with you. Just know that it can be done.

Rich


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I would simply like to say that I respect rich584's experiences but mine differ; I've had equivalent experiences with all the manufacturers. That doesn't invalidate what he's gone through, only know that it's possible to get a good receiver from any manufacturer.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I would simply like to say that I respect rich584's experiences but mine differ; I've had equivalent experiences with all the manufacturers. That doesn't invalidate what he's gone through, only know that it's possible to get a good receiver from any manufacturer.


I agree. Oddly, I agree. If I had never had a 20-700 and only had 21-700s, I would be happy with them. My statements are purely subjective. To say that all the 20-100s that are out there don't work would be foolish. But to go thru that massive list that the TS put up and believe that every one of them was valid would also be foolish. I just don't have that many problems anymore. And if the TS is still experiencing all those problems, he's got problems that aren't limited to the HRs.

Rich


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> [...] To say that all the 20-100s that are out there don't work would be foolish [...]


Ya. I've been living with a refurb'd HR20-100 for about a year and I have to say it works as well as my 20-700's.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> Ya. I've been living with a refurb'd HR20-100 for about a year and I have to say it works as well as my 20-700's.


Amazing. Just amazing. And I've never had a 100 that worked for more than three weeks. Just my luck, I guess. 

Rich


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Amazing. Just amazing. And I've never had a 100 that worked for more than three weeks. Just my luck, I guess.


You probably got new ones, instead of a reconditioned unit like mine! :lol:


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Steve said:


> Ya. I've been living with a refurb'd HR20-100 for about a year and I have to say it works as well as my 20-700's.





rich584 said:


> Amazing. Just amazing. And I've never had a 100 that worked for more than three weeks. Just my luck, I guess.





Steve said:


> You probably got new ones, instead of a reconditioned unit like mine! :lol:


A relative of mine... well, sorta, but not really, is a Dish Network customer.

Every year, his Dish Network receiver would go bad. They'd send him a new one, and it would go bad too. Suffice it to say, this happened multiple times.

I forget what caused the change, but eventually they shipped him a refurbished/reconditioned receiver. It's worked now for years... 

I got an HR20-100 several years ago, and it went bad in a week. I was sent a HR20-700 that was refurbished/reconditioned, and it's worked for years now! 

~Alan


----------



## jason williams (Jan 24, 2007)

Good job with this list..Should be expanded since there are many more..Live programming on TNT and ESPN have constant audio dropouts and Pixelation. Directv should be trashed for putting out such garbage and charging such prices on a box which does not work properly and then bragging what outstanding service they provide..


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jason williams said:


> Good job with this list..Should be expanded since there are many more..Live programming on TNT and ESPN have constant audio dropouts and Pixelation. Directv should be trashed for putting out such garbage and charging such prices on a box which does not work properly and then bragging what outstanding service they provide..


Show me someone who has all those issues. 

Mike


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Doug Brott said:


> This is actually a feature .. Due to the way MPEG4 is decoded, Audio is available much more quickly after a trick play .. syncing up so to speak. There are multiple ways to deal with the problem, but one good way is to have a frozen video frame (which is ahead of current position) sit and wait while the audio actually catches up...


I am skeptical regarding this explanation; maybe you could elaborate a bit. It sounds as if you are attributing something to MPEG-4 as opposed to MPEG-2, but maybe it just sounds that way. For one thing, MPEG-4 decoding should have little if any difference from MPEG-2 decoding, other than it performs a few more tricks on both encode and decode. And especially so regarding audio, which is neither MPEG-4 nor MPEG-2.

If anything, MPEG-4 video should take longer to decode, as it has more inherent latency in the flavor used by DBS, than does MPEG-2. And this should not affect the audio at all, which has very little latency relative to video, meaning that it can be already available, waiting, and ready when syncing to decoded video, regardless what video codec is used. It just might have to wait slightly longer than it would for MPEG-2 video.

Not only does the audio have little latency, the difference in latency between the possible audio codecs available with MPEG-4 and those available with MPEG-2 are probably so insignificant as to not be noticeable, so I fail as yet to see how MPEG-4 decoding would be different as regards audio (other than HE-AAC is not available as an audio codec connected to MPEG-2).

But maybe you are only saying that audio is available more quickly than video? (and not in comparison to MPEG-2) If so, obviously true, but also true in the case of MPEG-2 video, not just MPEG-4. Maybe you meant "due to the fact that decoded video has more latency than audio...". Sorry if I misinterpreted your intent.

That is the way the HR10-250 dealt with it from day one (no MPEG-4 there, right?). But what is interesting is that it is difficult to attribute this to the difference in latency between audio and video. After all, it is the video (which has the latency issue) that is there _first_, in the freeze-frame, _waiting for audio _(which does not have the latency issue) to catch up, not the other way around.

I think the explanation is that video as a stream has latency due to the need to buffer an entire GOP before clocking it back out, while video as a single frame does not really have any latency. IOW, a frame of video can be grabbed on the jump back and held/displayed until the audio syncs up. If you grab a frame that is far enough ahead to compensate for the latency that would be expected in actual streaming (at least a full GOP's worth), it can dead-roll from that point forward and match the audio as it comes along. Neat trick, actually.


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

MicroBeta said:


> ...Take blank recordings for instance. I haven't had one of those for years...


Bad example. I've had 3 in the past month.


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Syzygy said:


> ...


OT, but I like your screen name, which is also the name of one of my favorite _X-Files _episodes.  The haters here in this thread are behaving ironically (or maybe coincidentally) much like the folks in that episode did.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> Show me someone who has all those issues.
> 
> Mike


Makes one wonder, doesn't it.

How some folks report these issues as "common - it happens all the time", yet you find 1 post from those posters like that. Hmmmm....

I'm with you MB....haven't lost s single dropped recording on any HR20, HR21, or HR24 HD DVR in at least the past 4 years, not one - and that includes thousands of recordings during that time. If someone has it happen more than one time ever...it would make one think something is amuck and have it checked out....


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

TomCat said:


> Bad example. I've had 3 in the past month.


So, because you've had 3, then it's a bad example? Yours seem like bad examples since they're such an anomaly among users.


----------



## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> • While you're watching Live TV, with no remote activity for a while, the buffer gets dumped if the channel banner pops up by mistake as a show happens to start in real time.


I didn't read the whole thread, but I can confirm this is a bug or 'design flaw'. Whatever you want to call it, it is repeatable (on 2 HR20-700s and a HR20-100) and has been reported countless times and still has not been fixed.

IMO it's one of the most annoying bugs I have encountered as I have lost the end of many shows because I was behind live, and it decided to dump the buffer (jumping me up to live) for no reason. :nono2:


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

poppo said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, but I can confirm this is a bug or 'design flaw'. Whatever you want to call it, it is repeatable (on 2 HR20-700s and a HR20-100) and has been reported countless times and still has not been fixed.
> 
> IMO it's one of the most annoying bugs I have encountered as I have lost the end of many shows because I was behind live, and it decided to dump the buffer (jumping me up to live) for no reason. :nono2:


How long does it take?

I've had been in the live buffer, or even paused, when I went to bed and have gotten up with it still in the buffer (I don't usually put my receivers in standby).

The HRs have done some annoying things with the live buffer over the years.

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Makes one wonder, doesn't it.
> 
> How some folks report these issues as "common - it happens all the time", yet you find 1 post from those posters like that. Hmmmm....
> 
> I'm with you MB....haven't lost s single dropped recording on any HR20, HR21, or HR24 HD DVR in at least the past 4 years, not one - and that includes thousands of recordings during that time. If someone has it happen more than one time ever...it would make one think something is amuck and have it checked out....


I have a spread sheet to keep track of my SLs over three DVRs and I honestly can't remember the last time I had a blank recording. For that matter, I haven't missed a recording in year...well, not unless it was my fault...and no matter how it happened, my wife says it's my fault. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

TomCat said:


> Bad example. I've had 3 in the past month.


Not a bad example.

I have four friends at work with DirecTV (only three with HR's), and I asked them to keep track of a few things for me and this is one of them. None have had this problem in a long time.

I have three DVRs recording daily and I never miss or have a blank recording.

If this is happening on a regular basis, then there's got to be something wrong. It shouldn't be happening. If it were a system or firmware problem it would be wide spread and it just isn't. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Not a bad example.
> 
> I have four friends at work with DirecTV (only three with HR's), and I asked them to keep track of a few things for me and this is one of them. None have had this problem in a long time.
> 
> ...


Blank recordings were an occasional issue for me back in 2008. Thankfully, I haven't seen one of those in almost 2 years.


----------



## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> Blank recordings were an occasional issue for me back in 2008. Thankfully, I haven't seen one of those in almost 2 years.


I have three HR2x DVRs recording at a high usage level and have not had a blank recording for at least two years, maybe longer....


----------



## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> How long does it take?
> 
> I've had been in the live buffer, or even paused, when I went to bed and have gotten up with it still in the buffer (I don't usually put my receivers in standby).
> 
> ...


It varies and it does not always happen. But it is repeatable enough in the sense that I've determined that lack of remote activity is one piece of the puzzle. Apparently the unit assumes you are not using it and decided to do it's thing. My theory is that it is a bug with the tuner hijacking that takes place when recordings are pushed to the DVR. Because it always acts like you just changed the channel. So perhaps it flips the background tuner to the active channel (hence the channel banner popping up) and uses the foreground tuner for the hijack instead of using the background tuner.

In any case this all started around the time DP was introduced (which I don't use).

The bottom line is you can be let's say 15 minutes behind live and nearing the end of a 2 hour movie only to have the end go 'poof' when it dumps the buffer and zips you back up to real time. There is never a user initiated recording taking place or scheduled. Hence the hijack tuner theory.

Since this happens on 3 different DVRS of two different models and has been reported by others, one can only conclude it's a bug and not a hardware issue.

One problem is many people may not even realize it's happening if they are watching live and are in real time. The only indicator will be the channel banner pops up for no reason at the beginning of the next show. If that happens, most likely you will not be able to back up because the buffer has dumped.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> I have three HR2x DVRs recording at a high usage level [...]


Ya. I just checked a couple of HISTORY logs. We average about 50 recordings a week per DVR (includes duplicate "back-up" recordings and shows in re-run that show several episodes a day, like _CSI _or _L&O_).

I've got 6 DVR's, so that's about 30,000 recordings over 2 years that we randomly sample each week. Between the wife and I, we probably watch 20 shows per week, with no "blanks". If folks are still getting them, I'd start by looking at signal strength (771 errors) or malfunctioning hardware as possible culprits, including connections to and from the dish, grounding, connectors, etc.

E.g., I had a problem a few months ago where I was randomly losing only the "odd" transponders on 103 (cb) that was cured by replacing my LNB. Had I been recording shows on those transponders at the time they shut off, I may have seen "blank" recordings as a result.


----------



## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

This is some excellent work here. I have experienced about 1/2 of these bugs with the HR20 and 21 since they both first came out. I would like to add one under scheduling for you.

The autorecord feature treats lower channel number as a higher priority than earlier date. As a result, an autorecord that should record a hockey game live on Tuedsay night on Vs. (603) will instead choose to record the same game replay at 10:00 am the next morning on NHL Network (215). Unfortunately, because 215 comes before 603, the DVR doesn't realize that Tuesday comes before Wednesday! I know this can (sometimes) be averted with a LIVE tag in the search, any competent DVR should be able to recognize that Tuesday comes before Wednesday.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> You probably got new ones, instead of a reconditioned unit like mine! :lol:


No, I only bought a 22-100, the rest of the 100s I got were (purportedly) refurbished (an urban myth as far as I'm concerned). The 22 I bought lasted three weeks, which was a lot longer that the replacement (now, that's what they should be called) 20-100s and 21-100s that I received. Don't have any idea how many I had, but most got sent back immediately for various reasons and none made it past 48 hours.

If I were you, I'd be out buying lottery tickets. :lol:

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TomCat said:


> Bad example. I've had 3 in the past month.


Can't remember the last time I had one. Been years.

Rich


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

islesfan said:


> This is some excellent work here. I have experienced about 1/2 of these bugs with the HR20 and 21 since they both first came out.


I think the key issue for this thread is, are you *still* having problems with 1/2 of these bugs listed? Or were most of them in the past and no longer and issue.



> I would like to add one under scheduling for you.
> 
> The autorecord feature treats lower channel number as a higher priority than earlier date. As a result, an autorecord that should record a hockey game live on Tuedsay night on Vs. (603) will instead choose to record the same game replay at 10:00 am the next morning on NHL Network (215). Unfortunately, because 215 comes before 603, the DVR doesn't realize that Tuesday comes before Wednesday! I know this can (sometimes) be averted with a LIVE tag in the search, any competent DVR should be able to recognize that Tuesday comes before Wednesday.


If you set your autorecord with *CCHAN 603 700 *for example it will then ignore the NHL Network. Assuming you always would want the game off VS. or an RSN. I remember using Tivo wishlists it would do the exact same thing and take the lower channel number which at the time meant it would record off ESPN instead of my RSN. With the Tivo there was no work around. At least on the HR2x series you can use the Boolean's to avoid the problem.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> No, I only bought a 22-100, the rest of the 100s I got were (purportedly) refurbished (an urban myth as far as I'm concerned). The 22 I bought lasted three weeks, which was a lot longer that the replacement (now, that's what they should be called) 20-100s and 21-100s that I received. Don't have any idea how many I had, but most got sent back immediately for various reasons and none made it past 48 hours.
> 
> If I were you, I'd be out buying lottery tickets. :lol:
> 
> Rich


HR21-100, over two years old and still going. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> Not a bad example.
> 
> I have four friends at work with DirecTV (only three with HR's), and I asked them to keep track of a few things for me and this is one of them. None have had this problem in a long time.
> 
> ...


I've got eleven (way too many) recording daily and it never happens. Can't remember the last time it happened, but it was before my system was rebuilt. That was in the first four months of '08.

Rich


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

poppo said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, but I can confirm this is a bug or 'design flaw'. Whatever you want to call it, it is repeatable (on 2 HR20-700s and a HR20-100) and has been reported countless times and still has not been fixed.
> 
> IMO it's one of the most annoying bugs I have encountered as I have lost the end of many shows because I was behind live, and it decided to dump the buffer (jumping me up to live) for no reason. :nono2:


Never experienced it before... 



Steve said:


> Blank recordings were an occasional issue for me back in 2008. Thankfully, I haven't seen one of those in almost 2 years.





Steve said:


> Ya. I just checked a couple of HISTORY logs. We average about 50 recordings a week per DVR (includes duplicate "back-up" recordings and shows in re-run that show several episodes a day, like _CSI _or _L&O_).
> 
> I've got 6 DVR's, so that's about 30,000 recordings over 2 years that we randomly sample each week. Between the wife and I, we probably watch 20 shows per week, with no "blanks". If folks are still getting them, I'd start by looking at signal strength (771 errors) or malfunctioning hardware as possible culprits, including connections to and from the dish, grounding, connectors, etc.


I watch a lot more than 20 shows per week, and while I've had MULTIPLE blank recordings over the past year, they were not the fault of the DVR, but rather the fault of a failed hard drive. I had my eSATA drive go bad, and while I was able to copy a little over half to a new eSATA drive, there were a lot of recordings that didn't copy over, as well as a large amount of recordings that showed up in the Playlist, but were blank when you tried to play them.

HOWEVER, other than those particular programs (some of which I knew worked prior to the hard drive going bad), and several recordings that failed due to RAIN FADE, I have no experienced in blank recordings either.

~Alan


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

islesfan said:


> This is some excellent work here. I have experienced about 1/2 of these bugs with the HR20 and 21 since they both first came out. I would like to add one under scheduling for you.
> 
> The autorecord feature treats lower channel number as a higher priority than earlier date. As a result, an autorecord that should record a hockey game live on Tuedsay night on Vs. (603) will instead choose to record the same game replay at 10:00 am the next morning on NHL Network (215). Unfortunately, because 215 comes before 603, the DVR doesn't realize that Tuesday comes before Wednesday! I know this can (sometimes) be averted with a LIVE tag in the search, any competent DVR should be able to recognize that Tuesday comes before Wednesday.


Maybe ARSLs just don't consider date/time as a factor? I've seen evidence to support that idea. Maybe I should add a bug like this:

• ARSLs seem to attach no importance to the desirability of recording the first possible showing of a program that has multiple showings.

I definitely forgot to add this bug, which is similar:

• If an ARSL can't record a multiple-showing program at the first opportunity, it may skip succeeding non-conflicting opportunities, perhaps recording the very last possible showing.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I have all kinds of ARSLs, for sports, and it never records on a second lower channel a few days latter unless there was a scheduling conflict during the live broadcast... This is using multiple ARSLs to catch all channels, or only one or two...


----------



## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I think the key issue for this thread is, are you *still* having problems with 1/2 of these bugs listed? Or were most of them in the past and no longer and issue.
> 
> If you set your autorecord with *CCHAN 603 700 *for example it will then ignore the NHL Network. Assuming you always would want the game off VS. or an RSN. I remember using Tivo wishlists it would do the exact same thing and take the lower channel number which at the time meant it would record off ESPN instead of my RSN. With the Tivo there was no work around. At least on the HR2x series you can use the Boolean's to avoid the problem.


Good points. I should say I have had 1/2 of these problems with some still persisting. The remote issues (I use IR, not RF) are the main ones. The others concern phantom 24 hour recordings, missed recordings, and recordings secretly vetoed in the ToDo list without an entry in the history.

As for the autorecordings, I went with boolean at one time, and I ended up missing a live game that was moved to the NHL Network. My main complaint is not that it takes the earlier channel, as you are correct TiVo would do that too. My complaint is that it will take the earlier channel at a later date rather than the earlier showing. I have no problem with it recording the game on 215 over 603. My problem is when it records the game on *Wednesday *on 215 rather than *Tuesday *on 603. TiVo never did that!


----------



## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I have all kinds of ARSLs, for sports, and it never records on a second lower channel a few days latter unless there was a scheduling conflict during the live broadcast... This is using multiple ARSLs to catch all channels, or only one or two...


When using ISLANDERS - SPORTS - HOCKEY as an autorecord, it will *always *record the replay on 215 the next morning rather than the live showing on 603 (or 777 or whatever) the night before. Fortunately, the Isles are rarely on NHL Net, so it doesn't come up that often, and I babysit the ToDo list all season to catch the games it just plans to ignore before it can skip them, so I usually catch the problem before it tries to record.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

TomCat said:


> But maybe you are only saying that audio is available more quickly than video?


This is sufficient for me .. All I know is that decoding MPEG4 and/or MPEG2 will start with audio/video out of sync. They have to sync up and one way to do that is to hold the a frame, start the audio (maybe back it up even :shrug and when the audio & video are together, play away ..

Until that sync time, you can show a blank screen if you'd like, but us humans would rather look at something if possible. Still frame works for that.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

islesfan said:


> When using ISLANDERS - SPORTS - HOCKEY as an autorecord, it will *always *record the replay on 215 the next morning rather than the live showing on 603 (or 777 or whatever) the night before...


If you submit, or have submitted, a bug report (a DirecTV "issue") that says exactly that, I can point to it when I add this bug to my list.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> If you submit, or have submitted, a bug report (a DirecTV "issue") that says exactly that, I can point to it when I add this bug to my list.


He has several threads on the subject.

Mike


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> If you submit, or have submitted, a bug report (a DirecTV "issue") that says exactly that, I can point to it when I add this bug to my list.


Here's something that annoys me when I watch a fight. The 30 second slip (which I prefer over the 30 second skip) is not 30 seconds long. More like 33,34, or 35 seconds. This overrun is most noticeable between rounds. I was just watching a couple fights yesterday and every pause between rounds I hit the slip button twice and always ended up being several seconds into the next round.

Just to make sure I was seeing the HR screw up, I used an analog stopwatch (an expensive one) and a digital stopwatch (cheap, but serviceable) and both agreed with the HBO digital counters. I was going from the bell ending the round to the bell starting the next round and the overrun happened every time. Annoying, but not to the point where I want to make a real big issue about it.

Rich


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Here's something that annoys me when I watch a fight. The 30 second slip (which I prefer over the 30 second skip) is not 30 seconds long. More like 33,34, or 35 seconds. This overrun is most noticeable between rounds. I was just watching a couple fights yesterday and every pause between rounds I hit the slip button twice and always ended up being several seconds into the next round.
> 
> Just to make sure I was seeing the HR screw up, I used an analog stopwatch (an expensive one) and a digital stopwatch (cheap, but serviceable) and both agreed with the HBO digital counters. I was going from the bell ending the round to the bell starting the next round and the overrun happened every time. Annoying, but not to the point where I want to make a real big issue about it.
> 
> Rich


Isn't that time span dependent on what type of material you slipping/skipping through?

Mike


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> Isn't that time span dependent on what type of material you slipping/skipping through?
> 
> Mike


I have no idea. All it was slipping thru was a bunch of talking heads. Gotta say that question hit me unexpectedly. Have absolutely no idea. Let me check...hmm, have no idea how to check it. The fights had a digital clock on the screen between rounds and during rounds and that's what I did the comparison with the stopwatches on. The stopwatches agreed with the on-screen clock and the bell ringer.

Rich


----------



## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> Isn't that time span dependent on what type of material you slipping/skipping through?
> 
> Mike


What "types" of material do you mean? OTA vs D or live buffer vs recorded buffer or live event vs video vs film? I thought 30sec of buffer = 30sec of programing no matter what the source or type. This must be a very simple concept because I'm really confused from over thinking it. :lol:


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

I tested :30 second skip on my HR24-500 via an on screen timer...it was spot on.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

drpjr said:


> What "types" of material do you mean? OTA vs D or live buffer vs recorded buffer or live event vs video vs film? I thought 30sec of buffer = 30sec of programing no matter what the source or type. This must be a very simple concept because I'm really confused from over thinking it. :lol:


720p vs 1080p, Golf vs Action Movie, etc

When I test it with HDNet Test Pattern it ranges 29-35 seconds. Each time I've tested it, it us usually pretty consistent at that time. I mean it's usually within 1-3 sec each time. If I get 30 seconds then each time I'll get ± 1ish seconds. The next time I test it I'll get say 33 seconds with about the same tolerance.

I get about the same response from the Replay button.

I've tested this with both my universal remote and the DirecTV remote to make sure they're the same and it always comes out equal (as expected), so now I only use my universal.

I suspect it's related to the type of material and what else the system is doing at that point in time. Of course that's only a guess.

At any rate, I'm not sure it's possible to make it exactly 30 seconds all the time...I've been wrong before. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> 720p vs 1080p, Golf vs Action Movie, etc
> 
> When I test it with HDNet Test Pattern it ranges 29-35 seconds. Each time I've tested it, it us usually pretty consistent at that time. I mean it's usually within 1-3 sec each time. If I get 30 seconds then each time I'll get ± 1ish seconds. The next time I test it I'll get say 33 seconds with about the same tolerance.
> 
> ...


And yet, VCRs had it down pat. At least the Sonys did. I watched a lot of fights and when the bell rang at the end of a round, you hit the skip button however many times for one minute and it coincided with the next round's beginning bell. Not a big deal, only time I notice it is on fights, but I've never seen a post about it. Curious.

Rich


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

VCRs had basically linear recording. 30 seconds always equalled the same number of feet of tape. With MPEG encoding, 30 seconds could be 100k of data or 100MB, and the encoding is variable.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> VCRs had basically linear recording. 30 seconds always equalled the same number of feet of tape. With MPEG encoding, 30 seconds could be 100k of data or 100MB, and the encoding is variable.


Well, let me go find out what encoding means in this context...

Rich


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Well, let me go find out what encoding means in this context...


Shows with scenes that change rapidly from frame to frame can not be compressed as efficiently as news broadcasts, e.g., where the "talking heads" sit in front of a desk and a static background. If the camera doesn't move, the desk and background can be "re-used" for several frames, and only the broadcasters need to be recompressed every frame because they're moving.

Much like a noisy, grainy photograrph taken at high ISO will save as a larger jpeg than the same scene taken with flash at a lower ISO that exhibits less "grain". Large patches of solid color, like blue skies, compress very efficiently.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

sigma1914 said:


> I tested :30 second skip on my HR24-500 via an on screen timer...it was spot on.


I switched to 30SLIP for testing and found that "30-second slip" always slips between 32 and 33 seconds. I used the HDNet test pattern [HD] to time it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> And yet, VCRs had it down pat. At least the Sonys did. I watched a lot of fights and when the bell rang at the end of a round, you hit the skip button however many times for one minute and it coincided with the next round's beginning bell. Not a big deal, only time I notice it is on fights, but I've never seen a post about it. Curious.
> 
> Rich


 30 seconds of tape in an exact amount of tape. It's linear and very easy to do. However, 30 seconds of data is subject to many different variables.

Now my old Panasonic VCR would mark the start and end of each set of commercials, and automatically skip them when you started watching the program. Now that would be cool. 

Mike


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> [...]Now my old Panasonic VCR would mark the start and end of each set of commercials, and automatically skip them when you started watching the program. Now that would be cool.  [...]


The Replay DVR did that at first and really ticked off the studios. I think if they auto-FF'd instead of auto-skipped, they might have had less resistance, since that what users do anyway.


----------



## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> I suspect it's related to the type of material and what else the system is doing at that point in time. Of course that's only a guess.
> 
> At any rate, I'm not sure it's possible to make it exactly 30 seconds all the time...I've been wrong before. :grin:
> 
> Mike


I trust your guess as I am in the deep end of the pool in this discussion.:lol:


Stuart Sweet said:


> VCRs had basically linear recording. 30 seconds always equalled the same number of feet of tape. With MPEG encoding, 30 seconds could be 100k of data or 100MB, and the encoding is variable.


Feet of tape or frames per second , isn't it a fixed amount? Ex: If something is broadcast in 720p/30fps every 900 frames should be 30sec no matter how much encoding was required for each frame or which 900 frames you choose. I guess my question is does the HDDVR count fps to skip/slip? And if it doesnt what does it use? I really find this interesting but am pretty much lost.:lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

drpjr said:


> I trust your guess as I am in the deep end of the pool in this discussion.:lol:
> 
> Feet of tape or frames per second , isn't it a fixed amount? Ex: If something is broadcast in 720p/30fps every 900 frames should be 30sec no matter how much encoding was required for each frame or which 900 frames you choose. I guess my question is does the HDDVR count fps to skip/slip? And if it doesnt what does it use? I really find this interesting but am pretty much lost.:lol:


Does a DVR track frame rates or does it treat it simply as data?

In order to use fps, it would have to track frame rates as well as everything it does. Ok, I have know idea how to do that but I would think it would be much more difficult than simply treating a programs as a computer file.

Mike


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> Shows with scenes that change rapidly from frame to frame can not be compressed as efficiently as news broadcasts, e.g., where the "talking heads" sit in front of a desk and a static background. If the camera doesn't move, the desk and background can be "re-used" for several frames, and only the broadcasters need to be recompressed every frame because they're moving.
> 
> Much like a noisy, grainy photograrph taken at high ISO will save as a larger jpeg than the same scene taken with flash at a lower ISO that exhibits less "grain". Large patches of solid color, like blue skies, compress very efficiently.


Thanx, Steve. What I was watching was the between rounds conversation between talking heads.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> 30 seconds of tape in an exact amount of tape. It's linear and very easy to do. However, 30 seconds of data is subject to many different variables.
> 
> Now my old Panasonic VCR would mark the start and end of each set of commercials, and automatically skip them when you started watching the program. Now that would be cool.
> 
> Mike


I had one of those VCRs too. Didn't work very well, but a good idea that we'll never see implemented again. For obvious reasons.

By the way, think back to how precise the electronics were on your sub. My destroyer's electronics were so precise it amazed me. And that was a long time ago. And for you folks who might not believe it, we had digital electronics way back then. I'd love to get on one of the new destroyers and see what kind of goodies they have now. Must be mind blowing. And years ahead of what we see in stores today.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

drpjr said:


> I trust your guess as I am in the deep end of the pool in this discussion.:lol:
> 
> Feet of tape or frames per second , isn't it a fixed amount? Ex: If something is broadcast in 720p/30fps every 900 frames should be 30sec no matter how much encoding was required for each frame or which 900 frames you choose. I guess my question is does the HDDVR count fps to skip/slip? And if it doesnt what does it use? I really find this interesting but am pretty much lost.:lol:


Well, we're lost together. We can blow up a house in Berzerkistan from a console in California, but we can't measure 30 seconds accurately on a DVR? Oh well, I really didn't mean to start an argument, just commenting on an ongoing MINOR annoyance, but now I'm with you, befuddled again. :lol:

Rich


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Does a DVR track frame rates or does it treat it simply as data? [...]


Video is encoded to a frame rate, but I believe trickplay always needs to land on a "key" frame, which is the first frame in a sequence of frames that whatever compression is being used determines is most important to encode with as little loss of quality as possible.

That's why it sometimes appears after stopping FFX1, which has no autocorrection applied to it, that the video still jumps backwards before resuming play. I believe that happens when the closet key frame to the stopping point is _before_ the resume point, and the HR needs to "back-up" to find it. Otherwise, if it always jumped to the _next_ keyframe, there would be a risk of a dropped word of dialog.

MPEG-2 by it's nature is encoded with more key frames than MPEG-4, which is why MPEG-2 file sizes are larger. As a result, tho, MPEG-2 trickplay is smoother.

I think trickplay is an area where the HR's were being unfairly compared to the DirecTiVo, because the HR10 only had to deal with MPEG-2 files. Comparing MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 trickplay is really comparing apples to oranges.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Steve said:


> MPEG-2 by it's nature is encoded with more key frames than MPEG-4, which is why MPEG-2 file sizes are larger. As a result, tho, MPEG-2 trickplay is smoother.
> 
> I think trickplay is an area where the HR's were being unfairly compared to the DirecTiVo, because the HR10 only had to deal with MPEG-2 files. Comparing MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 trickplay is really comparing apples to oranges.


As I recall, trick play on my HR21 behaved the same with the rare MPEG-2 recording as it did with MPEG-4.

Are there any MPEG-2 channels left for an HR2x to experiment with? T101, say?


----------



## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> As I recall, trick play on my HR21 behaved the same with the rare MPEG-2 recording as it did with MPEG-4.
> 
> Are there any MPEG-2 channels left for an HR2x to experiment with? T101, say?


Record a local OTA.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> As I recall, trick play on my HR21 behaved the same with the rare MPEG-2 recording as it did with MPEG-4 [...]


You haven't watched enough MPEG-2 then.  As *Lefty *says, try an OTA recording. Trickplay is smooth as silk. I record NFL games OTA whenever possible for just that reason.


----------



## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Well, we're lost together. We can blow up a house in Berzerkistan from a console in California, but we can't measure 30 seconds accurately on a DVR? Oh well, I really didn't mean to start an argument, just commenting on an ongoing MINOR annoyance, but now I'm with you, befuddled again. :lol:
> 
> Rich


 Befuddled? Can I get an Amen Brother? This is something I would never have noticed on my own. Good catch by the way. It reminds me of the picture intermittantly flashing through the screensaver, it doesn't effect function and it doesn't bother me in the least, but I want to know why it does it. After reading Steve's explanation I feel that I have a pretty good grasp of the concepts involved. I just keep coming up with a bunch of "yeah...but" questions.:lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Well, we're lost together. We can blow up a house in Berzerkistan from a console in California, but we can't measure 30 seconds accurately on a DVR? Oh well, I really didn't mean to start an argument, just commenting on an ongoing MINOR annoyance, but now I'm with you, befuddled again. :lol:
> 
> Rich


I'm guessing here, but I think it has little to do with "can't" and more to do with the amount of work for so little a benefit. How much coding and how many more modules would you need to add to the firmware to get exactly 30 seconds vs. 30-33 seconds? Is it really worth it to do all that work when, for 99%, of users, the extra 1-3 seconds isn't really going to matter? IMHO, I would say no as I feel there are much more important things to spend time and lines of code on.

My 2¢ FWIW. 

Mike


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Syzygy said:


> As I recall, trick play on my HR21 behaved the same with the rare MPEG-2 recording as it did with MPEG-4.
> 
> Are there any MPEG-2 channels left for an HR2x to experiment with? T101, say?


Yep, MPEG2 on an HR2x is just as smooth as the DirecTivo. Trickplay "choppiness" is due to MPEG4. Almost a guarantee that this new DirecTivo will have the same issue. Just a nature of the technology.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> Are there any MPEG-2 channels left for an HR2x to experiment with? T101, say?





LameLefty said:


> Record a local OTA.





Steve said:


> As *Lefty *says, try an OTA recording.


Sorry, I can't. Not all of us have OTA tuners (HR20 or AM21).


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, MPEG2 on an HR2x is just as smooth as the DirecTivo. Trickplay "choppiness" is due to MPEG4. Almost a guarantee that this new DirecTivo will have the same issue. Just a nature of the technology.


OK, I believe. Too bad, tho.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> I switched to 30SLIP for testing and found that "30-second slip" always slips between 32 and 33 seconds. I used the HDNet test pattern [HD] to time it.


I switched back to 30SKIP and (again with the HDNet test pattern) found that one "30-second skip" always skips between 31 and 32 seconds, while a group of skips covers less time than expected; each successive skip tacked onto the chain of skips goes forward about 28 seconds.

Conclusions: 
1. SLIP's extra 2 or 3 seconds (5 or 6 seconds in another report) is mainly due to slugglish response (which seems to affect each SLIP in a chain of SLIPs).
2. SKIP's nearly-correct timing (for a single keypress) is the result of combining a programmed amount of around 28 seconds with the somewhat variable slugglishness. However, succeeding SKIPs in a chain are shorter because the slugglishness (latency) has little or no effect on them.
3. The average duration of a "30-second" SKIP can provide a rough estimate of a particular unit's latency.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> Video is encoded to a frame rate, but I believe trickplay always needs to land on a "key" frame, which is the first frame in a sequence of frames that whatever compression is being used determines is most important to encode with as little loss of quality as possible.
> 
> That's why it sometimes appears after stopping FFX1, which has no autocorrection applied to it, that the video still jumps backwards before resuming play. I believe that happens when the closet key frame to the stopping point is _before_ the resume point, and the HR needs to "back-up" to find it. Otherwise, if it always jumped to the _next_ keyframe, there would be a risk of a dropped word of dialog.
> 
> ...


That does make it much clearer. I've been getting some long jump backs that look like auto-correction and I thought that was due to having the Ethernet MRV setup. Sometimes it jumps back a minute or two. Rather disconcerting when you don't know what's causing it. I feel better knowing it's normal. Normal I can deal with. 

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

drpjr said:


> Befuddled? Can I get an Amen Brother? This is something I would never have noticed on my own. Good catch by the way. It reminds me of the picture intermittantly flashing through the screensaver, it doesn't effect function and it doesn't bother me in the least, but I want to know why it does it. After reading Steve's explanation I feel that I have a pretty good grasp of the concepts involved. I just keep coming up with a bunch of "yeah...but" questions.:lol:


Sometime in *Steve's* life he must have learned that to reach people with information that they can comprehend you have to get down to a level that they can understand. His posts have always been clear and (relatively) easy to understand.

If you want everyone to understand the message, you must get down to a fifth or sixth grade level. For the younger generations who don't read I don't know how far down you'd have to go. That's not an insult aimed at younger folks, that's an indictment of our school systems. Just go to any school and ask the students if they've read _Moby Dick_. I did this many times while my son (who never read it) was growing up and found one person who had read it. And he was from Sierra Leone. But, they've all seen the movies. 

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> I'm guessing here, but I think it has little to do with "can't" and more to do with the amount of work for so little a benefit. How much coding and how many more modules would you need to add to the firmware to get exactly 30 seconds vs. 30-33 seconds? Is it really worth it to do all that work when, for 99%, of users, the extra 1-3 seconds isn't really going to matter? IMHO, I would say no as I feel there are much more important things to spend time and lines of code on.
> 
> My 2¢ FWIW.
> 
> Mike


I can't really think of anything _but_ fights where you'd notice the inaccuracy of the slip and, as I said, it's really a minor annoyance. And it's easily correctable with a quick jump back. If the TS hadn't started this thread, I would never have commented on it.

Rich


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> That does make it much clearer. I've been getting some long jump backs that look like auto-correction and I thought that was due to having the Ethernet MRV setup. Sometimes it jumps back a minute or two. Rather disconcerting when you don't know what's causing it. I feel better knowing it's normal. Normal I can deal with.


I do want to say that what I was talking about (finding a key frame) only applies to FFX1, where there isn't any intentional autocorrection applied, AFAIK, and searching for a key frame sometimes takes you backwards a second or two.

If autocorrection seems too long on FFX2 or FFX3, that may be either because your reflexes are above the average user for which they calculated what the correction time should be, or the s/w release you're on may be beta or still needs to be tuned better for local vs. MRV autocorrect. I generally don't see autocorrect issues, because I'm a 30-skipper. I use that to get past MRV commercials and it works flawlessly for me.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> I switched back to 30SKIP and (again with the HDNet test pattern) found that one "30-second skip" always skips between 31 and 32 seconds, while a group of skips covers less time than expected; each successive skip tacked onto the chain of skips goes forward about 28 seconds [...]


This may be by design, to compensate for "looking" time in between SKIPS. If you're like me, I stack 4-5 right away, and then pause to see where I'm at before clicking SKIP again.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> I do want to say that what I was talking about (finding a key frame) only applies to FFX1, where there isn't any intentional autocorrection applied, AFAIK, and searching for a key frame sometimes takes you backwards a second or two.


Ah, even clearer. I do use FFX2, 3 and 4 for various reasons and they all react the same way.



> If autocorrection seems too long on FFX2 or FFX3, that may be either because your reflexes are above the average user for which they calculated what the correction time should be, or the s/w release you're on may be beta or still needs to be tuned better for local vs. MRV autocorrect. I generally don't see autocorrect issues, because I'm a 30-skipper. I use that to get past MRV commercials and it works flawlessly for me.


I'm not on beta and I usually am on MRV. I do usually use the HR that the program was recorded on. I also do go to "Local" if I'm gonna watch a couple programs on a particular HR. I think that works better than leaving the MRV on. Might be my imagination. The only reason I use the slip is that I was missing too many relevant commercials with the skip. Such as new shows, that sort of thing.

I can usually stop the FFx right on the place that I want to be, but it goes back and I have to slip forward. Not a big deal. Something that's been happening to me long before MRV came on line. Does seem to have gotten a tad worse lately tho.

Rich


----------



## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> I'm guessing here, but I think it has little to do with "can't" and more to do with the amount of work for so little a benefit. How much coding and how many more modules would you need to add to the firmware to get exactly 30 seconds vs. 30-33 seconds? Is it really worth it to do all that work when, for 99%, of users, the extra 1-3 seconds isn't really going to matter? IMHO, I would say no as I feel there are much more important things to spend time and lines of code on.
> 
> My 2¢ FWIW.
> 
> Mike


I agree completely. I am one of the 99% that thinks it really doesn't matter. And I would bet most of the remaining 1% only care about accuracy where my interest lies in the mechanics of the function. I realize this type of esoteric discussion has very limited appeal but I am thankful there are some who will share their knowledge. Thanks Mike


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

drpjr said:


> I agree completely. I am one of the 99% that thinks it really doesn't matter. And I would bet most of the remaining 1% only care about accuracy where my interest lies in the mechanics of the function. I realize this type of esoteric discussion has very limited appeal but I am thankful there are some who will share their knowledge. Thanks Mike


I never thought that post I wrote would stir up so many posts. :lol:

Rich


----------



## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

Steve said:


> Video is encoded to a frame rate, but I believe trickplay always needs to land on a "key" frame, which is the first frame in a sequence of frames that whatever compression is being used determines is most important to encode with as little loss of quality as possible.


 If I'm understanding correctly a more static picture= less encoding= less "key" frames= less accuracy in trickplay and the opposite for a more motion picture. If so that would fit Rich's observation while watching talking heads between boxing rounds.



Steve said:


> If autocorrection seems too long on FFX2 or FFX3, that may be either because your reflexes are above the average user for which they calculated what the correction time should be, or the s/w release you're on may be beta or still needs to be tuned better for local vs. MRV autocorrect. I generally don't see autocorrect issues, because I'm a 30-skipper. I use that to get past MRV commercials and it works flawlessly for me.


I think your observation of reflexes is a good one. No matter what s/w version, beta, local server, client or whatever autocorrection is always too short for my wife and too long for me. I am convinced the only constant is reflex time. Steve thanks for all the easily digestable info.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> This may be by design, to compensate for "looking" time in between SKIPS. If you're like me, I stack 4-5 right away, and then pause to see where I'm at before clicking SKIP again.


Steve, after reading your posts about the skip, I considered how often you've pointed me in the right direction. And I also remembered that some time in the past they upgraded the skip function. So I tried it. And now I'm changing all my HRs to skip. So much faster now it's almost like using a TiVo again. My thanx for making me reconsider. Another paradigm shot in the butt! :lol:

Rich


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Steve, after reading your posts about the skip, I considered how often you've pointed me in the right direction. And I also remembered that some time in the past they upgraded the skip function. So I tried it. And now I'm changing all my HRs to skip. So much faster now it's almost like using a TiVo again. My thanx for making me reconsider. Another paradigm shot in the butt! :lol:


The nice thing about using SKIP/REPLAY vs. >>/<< for me is it pretty much works exactly the same, whether I'm watching locally or via MRV. Ya, there's a millisecond or two of response lag when I SKIP/REPLAY on a remote show, but my reflexes now expect that as the norm. So when I'm watching locally, I'm impressed when it sometimes appears to respond a bit more quickly.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Steve said:


> The nice thing about using SKIP/REPLAY vs. >>/<< for me is it pretty much works exactly the same, whether I'm watching locally or via MRV. Ya, there's a millisecond or two of response lag when I SKIP/REPLAY on a remote show, but my reflexes now expect that as the norm. So when I'm watching locally, I'm impressed when it sometimes appears to respond a bit more quickly.


Yeah, that's one of the first things I noticed after I changed to the skip. Using the slip is rough when you're on MRV and I'm using the Ethernet hookup. With the skip, it doesn't matter what HR I use.

You are a jewel, Steve.

Rich


----------



## Chuck W (Mar 26, 2002)

> • Rewind and Instant Replay frequently cause severe stuttering of audio and/or video.


This is now number 2 on my list of most annoying issues with this box. This happens almost ALL the time when I rewind and try to replay something. It will be fine for a few seconds, but then the sound with drop and the vidoe will get stuttery. If I pause the playback, it will be fine for a few seconds then do it again. It's really driving me crazy these days.

if you are wondering what my #1 is, it's the serious failure at times of this box to recognize channel button presses or have hiccups in realizing that buttons have been pressed. Just last night, I press 265 in succession without real pauses(just like your would normplay press 2-6-5). I wait a sec and the box shows 2, then slowly shows 6, pauses for about 3 or so seconds, then tries to change to channel 26. When it says channel not available, suddenly the 5 shows up and the box changes to channel 5... WTH is this? The box does this quite frequently. I am pulling my hair out on this one.

Both these issues happen on all THREE of my box, which ar all different models, HR20-100, -700 and an HR21-100(I think that's the model... the first black one they came out with).

I am so sick and tired of these boxes, I really am at my wits end with them. They are to the point of trying to cram so much into these things, that they have forgotten about the BASICS of simple channel changes and simple rewind and playback.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

I can't help with your #1 gripe (and I haven't seen it lately on my HR21), but I can help with #2.

Others found this workaround first: Press *Info *first so that the delay in displaying the banner is all over before you press any digits.


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

It is very frustrating to see these problems affecting some people a lot, and others not at all. I have 3 dvrs (ini my sig), and none of them have rewind/replay stuttering issues. It just isn't there. Now...when I was running eSATA on my HR20-700, I did see it...and then it became more and more and more frequent. The eSATA drive finally failed. Went back to the internal drive, and it doesn't happen at all, nor did it happen with my other two DVRs that did not have an eSATA drive.

On the other hand, I have seen many, many times the keypress issue you describe. It is very apparent to me that the processors in these boxes (except the new HR24) are just not up to the many tasks they have been given, and we end up having to use a work-around like hitting info first, before hitting channel numbers. The problem gets better and worse all the time. It is not a "stable" easily repeatable problem. When it's doing it, it's does it all the time (for a period of time), but then it will stop doing it, and be fine for a period of time (usually shorter than the time that it is misbehaving).

Based on what they are asking these boxes to do, I don't think there will ever be a cure for the keypress issue, other than new hardware.



Chuck W said:


> This is now number 2 on my list of most annoying issues with this box. This happens almost ALL the time when I rewind and try to replay something. It will be fine for a few seconds, but then the sound with drop and the vidoe will get stuttery. If I pause the playback, it will be fine for a few seconds then do it again. It's really driving me crazy these days.
> 
> if you are wondering what my #1 is, it's the serious failure at times of this box to recognize channel button presses or have hiccups in realizing that buttons have been pressed. Just last night, I press 265 in succession without real pauses(just like your would normplay press 2-6-5). I wait a sec and the box shows 2, then slowly shows 6, pauses for about 3 or so seconds, then tries to change to channel 26. When it says channel not available, suddenly the 5 shows up and the box changes to channel 5... WTH is this? The box does this quite frequently. I am pulling my hair out on this one.
> 
> ...


----------



## gsslug (Sep 13, 2006)

This is a long thread and I'm not going to read it all but I thought I would put in my 2 cents worth. 

There are people who expect everything to function the way they think it should function and function that way all the time without fail. Syzygy seems to be one of those people. 

Then their are people like me who know that anything the least bit complex made by man and designed to be used by a large number of people will always have flaws and never function exactly as I would like. I loved my Tivo. But I bit the bullet and moved on to the HR2x series. I have learned to make them work for me and to live with their shortcomings and occasional hiccups. I don't mash my teeth, swear at my HR2xs, damn DTV, have an ulcer or loose sleep. I accept them for what they are. Imperfect but in general suiting my needs to record and playback TV programing.

I wonder if Syzygy has such a list for his wife and kids? I wonder if he has a wife and kids?:sure: Sorry Syzgy. I don't know you but I know people like you. Maybe you are a great happy fun loving guy with a great happy fun loving family. I hope so. But I do think it may be time for you to move on to some other cable/satellite system and hopefully you will find one that can meet your high standards.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

gsslug said:


> There are people who expect everything to function the way they think it should function and function that way all the time without fail. Syzygy seems to be one of those people.


If people can have imaginary friends, they can perhaps have imaginary bugs.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Well, this thread has me a bit stumped. It's gone pretty far off topic, it's gotten rude at times and just as I get ready to close it, it falls off the map again. Then, like a bad penny, it just keeps turning up. So, all I can say is, try to be kind, factual and stay to topic.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

gsslug said:


> There are people who expect *everything* to function the way they think it should function and function that way all the time without fail. Syzygy seems to be one of those people.
> 
> I wonder if Syzygy has such a list for his wife and kids? ... it may be time for you to move on to some other cable/satellite system and hopefully you will find one that can meet your high standards.


I expect a *computer with a dedicated control program* to function correctly all the time without fail (signal problems excepted). My TiVos managed to do that.

It's a mistake to anthropomorphize your HR2x box so that you can forgive it when it screws up (as if it were a wayward child).

Finally, I'm not moving on because (1) my wife still loves her (unfortunately mostly SD) HR10, and (2) I'm waiting hopefully for the new MPEG-4 TiVo. In the meantime it's only natural for anyone with computer programming experience to expect much more from the HR2x than is being delivered - especially when it calls itself the DIREC*TV* *+* DVR!


----------



## gsslug (Sep 13, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> I expect a *computer with a dedicated control program* to function correctly all the time without fail (signal problems excepted). My TiVos managed to do that.


I had a Tivo. I guess it wasn't as good as yours because it had occasional problems. But I liked it. Kept it as long as I could. But it wouldn't do MP4 so I had to move on. I looked at your list. Most of that stuff I could care less about or have learned to live with and don't even notice. But then I'm one of those guys who only uses his cell phone to make and receive calls. I guess when you expect more from a device than just the basics it's going to let you down from time to time.

But I do get your point only I think you took it a lot further than most would. I had a Blu-Ray player that had a known problem with freezing and skipping but it rarely happened so I kept using it. But then I tried to watch Sherlock Holmes and every 15 minutes it skipped back five minutes. Needless to say I was quite frustrated. Ruined the whole movie. The next morning I packed it up and took it back and got a new different brand DVD player. But that won't work in this situation.

I truly hope you are doing this for fun and are not losing any sleep over it or worse.


----------



## dtvmike1652 (Jun 14, 2010)

Syzygy said:


> Here's my latest list of pure bugs. I've compiled and verified this list (along with the other lists in the posts that follow) over the last 12 days. Just yesterday the rollout of 0x03DE started for some DVR models (HR21, HR22, HR23 and R22); this new release may fix some bugs (and may introduce some).
> 
> I've omitted design deficiencies so that fanboys can't pretend not to see the bugs. I've also tried to omit problems caused by bad Guide data, and issues such as pixelization, dropouts and stutters, for which the blame seems to fall on poor signal quality.
> 
> ...


These are more complaints of something that you don't like about the DVR not problems in the receivers themselves. Granted just like another technical device there will be some issues but for the most part the DVR is pretty awesome. Definatly so much better than Tivo and definatly better than Dish Networks. Most of those issues that you have can be corrected and it's odd that probably 98% of those issues I've never experienced in the 5 years I've had my HDDVR's. Sounds to me like someone may not know how to properly use their DVR and is complaining because they can't figure it out.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> Finally, I'm not moving on because (1) my wife still loves her (unfortunately mostly SD) HR10, and (2) I'm waiting hopefully for the new MPEG-4 TiVo. In the meantime it's only natural for anyone with computer programming experience to expect much more from the HR2x than is being delivered - especially when it calls itself the DIREC*TV* *+* DVR!


No harm, no foul. No fault in you liking what you like.

The OP is absolutely entitled to their views, their perspectives, and their choices.

It would now seem to be obvious that the whole thread mantra "since you all don't like what I do, everything else is wrong" position that others struggle with...especially when it is amplified by introducing primarily personal preferences, and proclaiming this to be a "flaws" list.

The thread title is inaccurate, the premise of it being "fact" (as opposed to primarily personal preferences) in the OP is wrong, and the ongoing back-and-forth bantor is populated through the defense of the original errant content. It's a rehash of the "I love my old Tivo" thread.

Everyone can like what they like - go for it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I keep hearing that song in my head.....
"Oh the cat came back, they thought he was a gonner..." 

Mike


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> I expect a *computer with a dedicated control program* to function correctly all the time without fail (signal problems excepted). My TiVos managed to do that.
> 
> It's a mistake to anthropomorphize your HR2x box so that you can forgive it when it screws up (as if it were a wayward child).
> 
> Finally, I'm not moving on because (1) my wife still loves her (unfortunately mostly SD) HR10, and (2) I'm waiting hopefully for the new MPEG-4 TiVo. In the meantime it's only natural for anyone with computer programming experience to expect much more from the HR2x than is being delivered - especially when it calls itself the DIREC*TV* *+* DVR!


You must buy better stuff than I do. I don't own a single piece of sophisticated electronic equipment that functions correctly "all the time".

I'm not disputing that there are bugs in the various boxes, some long-standing, some major, some minor. The major one's (a matter of opinion what is major, of course) tend to get attention pretty quickly.

Unlike an accountant, I tend to look at the big picture, and unless something interferes with the functions I'm trying to use (far in excess of the basic functions), I tend to merely take note of an anomaly and resume my viewing.

Overall the functions I use work well for me, which include:

1. Recording what I ask for.
2. Finding what I'm looking for.
3. Multi-Room Viewing (WHDVR)
4. Playing back what I record.

The one iffy issue of importance that presents problems regularly is keypad channel change and occasional sluggishness. I present them as one issue, because I think they have the same cause: not enough processor horsepower. There's no cure for that, you can't make a Porsche out of a Taurus. (I own a Taurus, btw)

I find it easy to be happy with what these boxes do, but hey, that's just me.

If it floats your boat to research the detail you present, good for you, and you have my thanks for it. Of course, there are the problems of opinion vs. fact, and desired feature vs. a true malfunction in some items on your list, but hey, that's just you, so who am I to get my knickers in a knot?

You're doing the work, you must find it personally rewarding no matter how much others may fail to appreciate your efforts.

While my next car won't be a Porsche, my next DVR will be an HR24, so at least I get to live the high life in one form or another.:hurah:


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

hasan said:


> You must buy better stuff than I do. I don't own a single piece of sophisticated electronic equipment that functions correctly "all the time".


_"My TiVo never ever fails!"_
_"What, never?"_
_"Well, hardly ever!"_


hasan said:


> Overall the functions I use work well for me, which include... 2. Finding what I'm looking for.


I guess you don't mind having to wade through pages of unwanted search results, like VOD and channels you don't get. It's a pet peeve of mine. Also, searching frequently fails to find stuff that you can see in the Guide.


hasan said:


> The one iffy issue of importance that presents problems regularly is keypad channel change and occasional sluggishness. I present them as one issue, because I think they have the same cause: not enough processor horsepower... my next DVR will be an HR24.


I share your feeling that a bunch of problems will go away with the HR24's increased computing horsepower.


hasan said:


> You're doing the work, you must find it personally rewarding no matter how much others may fail to appreciate your efforts.


So, you're saying you appreciate my efforts? Thanks.


----------

