# Will I be able to cancel DirecTV?



## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

So, I've had service for about 6 months and up until recently, loved it. It seems that when the installer did the work, he failed to mention to me that once spring rolls around and the trees get all their leaves back, my reception will become awful. There are no other spots to mount a dish. My house is basically surrounded by trees and even the roof isn't high enough. When he was here I asked him if the trees would be a concern, and he said no, set it up, and said "see, signal is great." I enjoy the programming and the price compared to when I had cable, but I just can't stand for poor viewing quality. 

Any advice on what I can do?


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Call DirecTV and explain the situation and you should get resolution, whether it's repointing or relocating the dish (which, from your description, doesn't seem possible) or get out of your contract. Just to forewarn you, it may take a little assertiveness to get your case taken care of.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

It actually surprises me that an installer would actually install it in that situation because when you call in he'll get a charge back (in other words he gets fined and doesn't get paid) and it's a black mark on his record. This forum is full of stories of installers that won't even attempt an install if they sniff a tree. Just kinda shocked.

Anyway, as suggested call DirecTV and tell them the situation. Most likely they will send out a tech to try to relocate and if they can't find any place that will get a signal then you'll most likely be able to get out of your contract. BUT they will have to have a tech verify that on site.


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> It actually surprises me that an installer would actually install it in that situation because when you call in he'll get a charge back (in other words he gets fined and doesn't get paid) and it's a black mark on his record.


Since the install is 6 months ago it won't affect his record at all. There are plenty of shady tech that pull a fast one like this on installs in october- december.

To the OP; any chance of some pictures. Mayeb we can find a way to make it work.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Mertzen said:


> Since the install is 6 months ago it won't affect his record at all. There are plenty of shady tech that pull a fast one like this on installs in october- december.
> 
> To the OP; any chance of some pictures. Mayeb we can find a way to make it work.


Don't order DirecTV in the Fall...good to know. :eek2:


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

The OP actually suspected trees would be an issue during the install, there's a little blame to be had by both parties.


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## paragon (Nov 15, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> The OP actually suspected trees would be an issue during the install, there's a little blame to be had by both parties.


There is no blame on the OP. He asked the installer about his concerns, and the installer said it wasn't a problem. 100% of blame goes to the installer.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> The OP actually suspected trees would be an issue during the install, there's a little blame to be had by both parties.


I disagree.

The OP questioned the installer who told him it wouldn't be a problem. It's reasonable to take the word of the "expert".

It's the installers job to ensure LOS. We know that he lied to get paid knowing that six months down the line there's little or no effect on him. So he tells the homeowner that there aren't enough leaves or that the satellites needed are above the trees...anything to get paid.

I don't blame the OP for taking the installer at his word.

Mike


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

It's starting to make sense now why he was in such a rush to get it installed. If the 6 month thing is true, he knew it. He walked through 2 feet of snow in my yard to install, in 30 degree weather, at night. I'll get some site pics posted in a bit.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Whatever, installers always the one to blame, blah blah blah...accept some responsibility people, common sense always needs to prevail...


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## paragon (Nov 15, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> Whatever, installers always the one to blame, blah blah blah...accept some responsibility people, common sense always needs to prevail...


He had common sense, and asked the question. It's not his fault the installer, who is supposed to know what he is talking about, lied.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

paragon said:


> He had common sense, and asked the question. It's not his fault the installer, who is supposed to know what he is talking about, lied.


First, "lied" is such a strong word. Maybe the installer just made a mistake.

Second, customers need to take responsibility for their purchases. Sure, the OP asked the right question, but he shouldn't have assumed that the installer offered a correct response. The OP should have done his research and independently confirmed the answer to the question.

If you buy a used car, and the saleman has his mechanic tell you that the brakes are fine, you still take the car to your own mechanic to get an independent opinion. Otherwise you have no one to blame but yourself if the brakes fail on your way home.

This is no different.


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

Upstream said:


> .... This is no different.


 But "this" is only television.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Upstream said:


> First, "lied" is such a strong word. Maybe the installer just made a mistake.
> 
> Second, customers need to take responsibility for their purchases. Sure, the OP asked the right question, but he shouldn't have assumed that the installer offered a correct response. *The OP should have done his research and independently confirmed the answer to the question.*
> 
> ...


I just wonder to whom the OP would have gone to for a independent opinion.
Sometimes one just has to rely on the expertise of the installer/expert.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Really, who would I ask for a second opinion? If I called DirecTV to voice my concerns, they would have just said the installer is the professional and he should be relied upon to provide the best answer. Here are a few pics....

The dish is on a tree to the right of the house pointing across the front yard to the left. You can see in pic 2 that the dish is basically pointing right into those trees. You can see in the third pic that the house is surrounded by tall trees, so roof mounting wouldn't work either. Technician is coming tomorrow. The customer service rep asked me if I could cut down all the trees in the way.


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## mobandit (Sep 4, 2007)

Upstream said:


> First, "lied" is such a strong word. Maybe the installer just made a mistake.
> 
> Second, customers need to take responsibility for their purchases. Sure, the OP asked the right question, but he shouldn't have assumed that the installer offered a correct response. The OP should have done his research and independently confirmed the answer to the question.
> 
> ...


Your analogy is a little flawed. The installer is 'working' for you. The mechanic at the dealer isn't. When you're the one paying for the opinion of an expert you expect, rightfully so, an honest opinion. The OP, in this case, did what a reasonable person would do. To expect him to go to the length of seeking a second opinion is not reasonable.


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## rebkell (Sep 9, 2006)

kjjb0204 said:


> Really, who would I ask for a second opinion? If I called DirecTV to voice my concerns, they would have just said the installer is the professional and he should be relied upon to provide the best answer. Here are a few pics....
> 
> The dish is on a tree to the right of the house pointing across the front yard to the left. You can see in pic 2 that the dish is basically pointing right into those trees. You can see in the third pic that the house is surrounded by tall trees, so roof mounting wouldn't work either. Technician is coming tomorrow. The customer service rep asked me if I could cut down all the trees in the way.


No doubt, you paid for it, Directv sent their installer, their installer said it was no problem, yet when things stop working, certain people in this thread declare you are the one that should take the responsibility. You can't even install your own dish anymore, it has to be done by a certified Directv installer.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Upstream said:


> First, "lied" is such a strong word. Maybe the installer just made a mistake.
> 
> Second, customers need to take responsibility for their purchases. Sure, the OP asked the right question, but he shouldn't have assumed that the installer offered a correct response. The OP should have done his research and independently confirmed the answer to the question.
> 
> ...


By that same analogy you expect ever homeowner to become experts in:
Home electrical wiring
Plumbing 
Chemistry involved in water softening and testing to determine what's in the water
Lightning suppression systems
Asphalt paving of the driveway
The loading differences between dimensional and engineered lumber
All the various Building Code for the installation of Stairs.
United States Tax Code :eek2:
When in reality we hire "experts" to do/know the things we can't/don't.

IMHO, the installer told the OP what he needed to in order to move on to the next install. I'm sure the information was at least credible enough to cause a reasonable person, not in the know, to believe him.

The question is, how knowledgeable do you expect a customer to be in every situation in order for things like this not to happen and what is a resaonable expectation of trust in what the "expert" installer tells the customer?

Mike


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

He installed that dish on a tree?!?



kjjb0204 said:


> Really, who would I ask for a second opinion? If I called DirecTV to voice my concerns, they would have just said the installer is the professional and he should be relied upon to provide the best answer. Here are a few pics....
> 
> The dish is on a tree to the right of the house pointing across the front yard to the left. You can see in pic 2 that the dish is basically pointing right into those trees. You can see in the third pic that the house is surrounded by tall trees, so roof mounting wouldn't work either. Technician is coming tomorrow. The customer service rep asked me if I could cut down all the trees in the way.


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## pfp (Apr 28, 2009)

CCarncross said:


> The OP actually suspected trees would be an issue during the install, there's a little blame to be had by both parties.


Yep, definitely shouldn't trust the trained professional you hired.


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## mpaquette (Sep 25, 2007)

Uhh, since when is it ok to install a dish on a tree?


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## bleggett29 (Feb 2, 2008)

kjjb0204 said:


> Really, who would I ask for a second opinion? If I called DirecTV to voice my concerns, they would have just said the installer is the professional and he should be relied upon to provide the best answer. Here are a few pics....
> 
> The dish is on a tree to the right of the house pointing across the front yard to the left. You can see in pic 2 that the dish is basically pointing right into those trees. You can see in the third pic that the house is surrounded by tall trees, so roof mounting wouldn't work either. Technician is coming tomorrow. The customer service rep asked me if I could cut down all the trees in the way.


The dish shouldn't have been installed on the tree because it can grow/move. You can probably re-peak the dish to get your signal back. You can probably do a pole mount in the same location. Also, from looking at the pictures, you can do a roof mount on the front/right side of the house. This will be the best location, IMHO.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

I find this thread rather interesting.

Some say the OP is at fault for not getting a second opionion as he thought the trees were an issue.

Some say that the installer is completely at fault as he is the professional.

I'll address the OP first. You normally don't need a second opionion for these types of things, you should be able to trust the word of the person doing the work.

Until...he tells you he's going to mount it to a tree. Sorry, but that didn't throw up any red flags, set off any bells & whistles, that maybe, just maybe this was going to be a half assed job? At that point, is where in my book, you assumed responsibility for the situation. I mean really? A tree? Who allows a dish to be installed on a tree?

Anyway, now onto the installer. Some of the comments from some posters are down right funny. Why? Some of YOU have in other threads have called the installers: morons, incompetent, idiots, etc., yet you are telling the OP that he should blindly trust the professional standing in front of him. You guys are some piece of work.  For the guy that actually had the cajones to put it on a tree. Wow. That should never had gone in. I do have to wonder: How green he was? How much pressure he was under from his boss to get the job in? How much pressure he was under from the customer to get the job in?


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

bleggett29 said:


> The dish shouldn't have been installed on the tree because it can grow/move. You can probably re-peak the dish to get your signal back. You can probably do a pole mount in the same location. Also, from looking at the pictures, you can do a roof mount on the front/right side of the house. This will be the best location, IMHO.


Agreed.


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## mobandit (Sep 4, 2007)

RobertE said:


> I find this thread rather interesting.
> 
> Some say the OP is at fault for not getting a second opionion as he thought the trees were an issue.
> 
> ...


Well, I've never called an installer any names at all, so your comment doesn't apply to me. As for the OP being responsible...

When I became a D* subscriber I knew absolutely NOTHING about DBS systems. NOTHING. I totally relied upon the installer to do everything correctly. If he would have wanted to mount my dish on a tree, I would have thought it odd, but not out of the realm of possibility. Since then I have made myself far more knowledgeable about DBS systems, I'm not an expert, but I am much better informed than I was. I have seen enough pictures in enough threads to know better, but that is after being a D* subscriber, and a member of this forum, for several years. Give the dude a break.


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## 456521 (Jul 6, 2007)

I find it amazing that anyone can put even 1/1000th of one percent of the blame on the OP.


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## rebkell (Sep 9, 2006)

mobandit said:


> Well, I've never called an installer any names at all, so your comment doesn't apply to me. As for the OP being responsible...
> 
> When I became a D* subscriber I knew absolutely NOTHING about DBS systems. NOTHING. I totally relied upon the installer to do everything correctly. If he would have wanted to mount my dish on a tree, I would have thought it odd, but not out of the realm of possibility. Since then I have made myself far more knowledgeable about DBS systems, I'm not an expert, but I am much better informed than I was. I have seen enough pictures in enough threads to know better, but that is after being a D* subscriber, and a member of this forum, for several years. Give the dude a break.


+1 Same here, I didn't know squat about installations, software, programming etc when I first got one, I've learned a lot more after the installation, which could really only be learned when you have a system. The less trouble you have the less you generally know about these things, if it ain't broke you have no real frame of reference.


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## hiker (Mar 1, 2006)

The fact that a DirecTV professional installer most surely violated guidelines by installing on a tree should get the OP out of the contract if a suitable location to mount the dish is not found.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Here's the full story of the tree mounting location. It was mid December, there was 2 feet of snow on the ground, at least 6 inches of ice and snow on the roof, and the previous home owner had four dishes mounted on trees. Two on the tree my dish is on, and two on another tree behind the house. Two for Dish Network and two for DTV. One dish for each service said World or International on them. I guess my installer saw the two on the tree and figured why not. He took the two old ones down and put mine up. I don't think the roof would work as the trees are really tall on the other side of the house. If it can go there, great!

Want the rest of the story? My appt was for a Friday from 12-4, he calls around 4:30 says he's going to be late. He gets there around 7, works for about an hour, then tells me he forgot a part, the LNB, that would work for my service (hd dvr+), has to go get one an hour away. He calls me at 9, says his truck is stuck in the snow. I didn't have chains, so I go ask a couple of neighbors, find a pair of chains, then go pull him out of the snow about 4 miles from my house. He follows me home, then says he'll need to come back in the morning to finish. He comes back around 9 the next morning and finishes up. Don't get me wrong; personally, the guy was really nice and was extremely grateful for pulling him from the snow.

I just want my service to work. Whatever they need to do, I expect it to be done, or let me out of my contract.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

RobertE said:


> I find this thread rather interesting.
> 
> Some say the OP is at fault for not getting a second opionion as he thought the trees were an issue.
> 
> ...


You have a very good point. Installed on a tree should have been a big indication that the installer was blowing smoke up his butt.

However, if it had been installed on a proper structure what would your assessment have been?

The point I was trying to make, without looking at the pictures, that the customer shouldn't be the one in the relationship with all the knowledge. The customer has to rely on the knowledge of what ever contractor working on their abode.

If after properly installing the dish he answers the customers question with an explanation of why he'll LOS in the spring should the customer believe him?

It's all moot because of the tree mount. Of course, I've had a friend try to self-install a dish on a tree saying "it's a huge tree and will be stable". If you ignore the fact that the darned thing grows he was right.  :lol:

I definitely do concede the tree mount as a faux pas on the customer as well as the installer.

You know I have nothing but respect for you. Further, I've always used an installer to mount my dish as don't trust myself to do it right the first time and am too lazy to devote the time to learn. :grin:

Is that the first time you've seen an installer put a dish on a tree? 

Mike


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> By that same analogy you expect ever homeowner to become experts in:
> Home electrical wiring
> Plumbing
> Chemistry involved in water softening and testing to determine what's in the water
> ...


Good points. I guess when the OP contracted with DirecTV for the installation, he assumed that the installer was knowledgeable and qualified.

With the additional information provided by the OP (timeline and installation on a tree), it seems that the installer was not knowledgeable and qualified, or was just trying to do whatever it takes to get another job in that day, even if it meant that the customer would suffer for it later.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Upstream said:


> Good points. I guess when the OP contracted with DirecTV for the installation, he assumed that the installer was knowledgeable and qualified.
> 
> With the additional information provided by the OP (timeline and installation on a tree), it seems that the installer was not knowledgeable and qualified, or was just trying to do whatever it takes to get another job in that day, even if it meant that the customer would suffer for it later.


Further&#8230;I also pointed out in a later posts that, IMHO, part of the onus falls on the customer when he allows the installer to do something like install the dish on a tree.

True the installer should have know better but I believe it should have been a big red flag that there was something wrong to the customer also.

IMO, RobertE is absolutely correct in that both the customer and the installer are culpable here.

Mike


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

I would say that there is a very likely chance that you have LOS from the roof with some effort.
Where are you located?


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

MicroBeta said:


> Further&#8230;I also pointed out in a later posts that, IMHO, part of the onus falls on the customer when he allows the installer to do something like install the dish on a tree.
> 
> True the installer should have know better but I believe it should have been a big red flag that there was something wrong to the customer also.
> 
> ...


How would I know that a tree is not a suitable place for mounting? The previous owner had four dishes mounted on two trees. Of course, it never did occur to me that, yes, trees do grow and would eventually throw the angle out of whack. Lesson learned there, but again, I was relying completely on the installer's knowledge on this. If he thought it was suitable, who was I to say it wasn't, especially since there had been two dishes already mounted on that same tree? If there is some responsibility for not questioning a tree-mount, then I take the blame for not asking the question at the time.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

kjjb0204 said:


> How would I know that a tree is not a suitable place for mounting? The previous owner had four dishes mounted on two trees. Of course, it never did occur to me that, yes, trees do grow and would eventually throw the angle out of whack. Lesson learned there, but again, I was relying completely on the installer's knowledge on this. If he thought it was suitable, who was I to say it wasn't, especially since there had been two dishes already mounted on that same tree? If there is some responsibility for not questioning a tree-mount, then I take the blame for not asking the question at the time.


One could argue that since a dish must be stable to receive a good signal, anything that moves would be a poor location for a mount.

Although, I can see how you might think it's ok since the previous owner had tree mounted dishes and the installer wanting to put it there. Maybe it's not all that cut and dry after all. :grin:

The thing we all need to take out of this is that the dish must be anchored. It cannot move. If it does move, even a minute amount, it will cause intermittent problems that you'll chasing down for a good long time.

Mike


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## 456521 (Jul 6, 2007)

kjjb0204 said:


> How would I know that a tree is not a suitable place for mounting?


You wouldn't, that's why it's not even 1% your fault. Sure, many people do know that a tree is a bad place for a dish, but not everyone spends time visiting these forums to gain knowledge of satellite systems. Don't waste your time debating this here.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Well, hopefully whoever comes tomorrow to troubleshoot will be more knowledgeable than the original installer. I'll update. Curious to see what they say.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

l8er said:


> But "this" is only television.


This represents commitments and a fairly sizable chunk of change. This is more than just television.


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## Matman (Mar 24, 2008)

I have to side with the original poster. He was new to Satellite, calls D* and gets set up by someone they sent over. Wouldn't you assume that a big company like D* would send a professional to handle a new customer and installing a dish? He questioned the location noting the trees, and the professional told him not to worry about it. If you were new to satellite, why wouldn't you trust who the company sent over? I agree, sounds like he is learning now that what he got wasn't the best install, but when you are new what did he have to compare it to? The installer used a tree for goodness sakes, that alone pretty much shows the overall quality of the installer. 

I think the OP asked the questions that needed to be asked, got lied to, and boom, now is looking for help. I don't see where he could have done more, being new to satellite and most of all, having been sent a "professional" by the company that he is buying service from.

This seems to me more of a statement on the quality of the installer, and also points out a hole in D* policies. This is no different then ordering something online and not getting what you ordered in the mail. Is it your fault for not gettiing what you ordered, or the companies employee for screwing up your order??


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

kjjb0204 said:


> How would I know that a tree is not a suitable place for mounting?


You wouldn't. Not mounting it on a tree makes perfect sense after reading this thread, but I'm not sure I would have thought of it had it been my install.


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

mpaquette said:


> Uhh, since when is it ok to install a dish on a tree?


I've seen them on trees, fences, decks, utility poles; would I do that: NO

I've mounted them on; septic vent pipes, old OTA antennas, central air support beams...; would I do it again: YES


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## mgtr (Apr 11, 2008)

kjjb0204 said:


> Well, hopefully whoever comes tomorrow to troubleshoot will be more knowledgeable than the original installer. I'll update. Curious to see what they say.


If I were in your position I would not be so quick to get Directv to cancel. Better to try to get them to make it work.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

mgtr said:


> If I were in your position I would not be so quick to get Directv to cancel. Better to try to get them to make it work.


I would rather keep the service. I love the programming and extra menu features that Comcast doesn't have.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

kjjb0204 said:


> I would rather keep the service. I love the programming and extra menu features that Comcast doesn't have.


Are you adverse to removing a tree if necessary?

Mike


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

MicroBeta said:


> Are you adverse to removing a tree if necessary?
> 
> Mike


Yes. I'm not taking down 100 year old oak trees for DirecTV. Not to mention, the cost to hire an arborist would be so much higher than just paying the ETF and going back to cable. And, any tree over 10ft requires a town permit to cut down.


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

kjjb0204 said:


> I would rather keep the service. I love the programming and extra menu features that Comcast doesn't have.


See what the tech that comes tomorrow tells you. If he says no go PM me and I'll come have a look if it's not all too far.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

kjjb0204 said:


> Yes. I'm not taking down 100 year old oak trees for DirecTV. Not to mention, the cost to hire an arborist would be so much higher than just paying the ETF and going back to cable. And, any tree over 10ft requires a town permit to cut down.


I think you might have an argument against paying the ETF.

If the installer can't get LOS I would discuss that fact with DirecTV and see how it goes. It can't hurt to try.

Mike


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Honestly, from what I've seen in the pics I think you can get service easily by:

1) Getting that dish properly installed on a pole, looks like it should shoot over the trees, the sats are much higher in the sky then you think and are at a higher angle then the dish points

or 2) the roof of the house looks like it would be just fine assuming that is pointing in the direction of the sats. Again, the sats are higher in the sky then you think.

Based on your description of the conditions the installer wouldn't have been able to install at all and just took the tree as an easy way out. Lazy. He should have just postponed any install until he could do it properly.

Once you get a tech out there I'm sure he'll find a good spot. If not ask for a supervisor to come out and check. Again, I see plenty of open yard with which to shoot over the trees.

Good luck.


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## paragon (Nov 15, 2007)

Mertzen said:


> I've seen them on trees, fences, decks, utility poles; would I do that: NO


What's wrong with mounting on a deck?


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

paragon said:


> What's wrong with mounting on a deck?


Same as with mounting on a tree or 4by4; warping.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Mertzen said:


> See what the tech that comes tomorrow tells you. If he says no go PM me and I'll come have a look if it's not all too far.


Appreciate the offer, but I'm a bit far from NYC. About 25 miles north of Boston, just into NH.

Bottom line is I like the service and choices, and scheduling from my BlackBerry is fantastic, so if there is a way to make it happen, I'm all for it.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> One could argue that since a dish must be stable to receive a good signal, anything that moves would be a poor location for a mount.
> 
> Although, I can see how you might think it's ok since the previous owner had tree mounted dishes and the installer wanting to put it there. Maybe it's not all that cut and dry after all. :grin:
> 
> ...


Except they have DirecTV service on boats, cars and planes. Most of them move a bit more than a tree.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Except they have DirecTV service on boats, cars and planes. Most of them move a bit more than a tree.


I guess if one has money to burn and want to buy a several thousand dollar tracvision system and mount it to a tree, then more power to you.

IMHO, that would be pretty stupid though.


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

harsh said:


> .... This is more than just television.


 Compared to things that can have a life or death outcome, it's still only television.
Unless couch-potato-itis is now an official cause of death.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Also, thank you to everyone for your replies.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

RobertE said:


> I guess if one has money to burn and want to buy a several thousand dollar tracvision system and mount it to a tree, then more power to you.
> 
> IMHO, that would be pretty stupid though.


Robert,

You well know that the majority of DirecTV customers know absolutely nothing about how the dish works. If they've taken a trip on Jet Blue or a couple of other airlines they could easily assume it works like other antennas. Even their satellite radio and Nav system antennas are okay when they move.

DirecTV doesn't go out of its way to educate people on how the dish should be installed that it has to be aimed correctly and on a very stable mount.

I can see someone not believing that mounting a dish to a tree would be an issue especially if it had been done before.

The real question is..is it this same installer that has put all of those dishes on his trees or is this common practice in the area?


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## netraa (Mar 28, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Robert,
> 
> *DirecTV doesn't go out of its way to educate people on how the dish should be installed that it has to be aimed correctly and on a very stable mount.*
> 
> ...


In fact, if you watch one of the DirecTV television commercials they show a hard hat wearing technician smiling as he looks at a KAKU dish that's improperly mounted to the facia, with the monopoles wrong, and a couple other rather large, glaring issues.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Robert,
> 
> You well know that the majority of DirecTV customers know absolutely nothing about how the dish works. If they've taken a trip on Jet Blue or a couple of other airlines they could easily assume it works like other antennas. Even their satellite radio and Nav system antennas are okay when they move.
> 
> ...


Hard to say. I guess for me at least, it all comes back to another customer not being the least bit invovled in the install.

Sure you shouldn't have to know every detail on how the sytem works end to end. But come on, wheres the common sense here (sorry to the OP).

People need to take just a small amount of personal responsibility.

Do you pic a doctor out of the phone book at random or do you do a little research to see if he got his degree from Harvard Medical, or from online course from somewhere in Mexico?

How about for attorneys? Or any other professional service.

When I had new HVAC put in, I checked out several local companies, followed up on referals. From that I went with who I felt gave me my best value for my dollar and had a good rep. Not just who gave the rock bottom price.

Why is that so hard for people to do when it comes to getting TV service?


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## bluemoon737 (Feb 21, 2007)

kjjb0204 said:


> I just want my service to work. Whatever they need to do, I expect it to be done, or let me out of my contract.


Looking at the pictures, there might be an opening in the other corner of the yard shooting below the leaf line of the trees (basically shooting to the left side of that tree bundle). A small post mount might work there. In any case, good luck.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Hard to say. I guess for me at least, it all comes back to another customer not being the least bit invovled in the install.
> 
> Sure you shouldn't have to know every detail on how the sytem works end to end. But come on, wheres the common sense here (sorry to the OP).
> 
> ...


There's a difference between researching a doctor or contractor or attorney before hiring them and this. Most customers call DirecTV which supplies the "certified professional" installer. Self-install isn't an option and nowhere on the DirecTV website is there a way to find other installers in your area. It's the same to customers as calling the cable company, power company, water company, gas company and phone company. They send the "experts"...you ask them questions and hope they're not doing a crap job.

The customer was involved. He asked the question, he had the installer show him it worked and the certified professional that DirecTV sent to do the job confirmed it was done properly. It had been done that way before...and my guess is it wasn't the same installer although it was probably the same install company.

Sounds to me like DirecTV needs to do a few more inspections of the install jobs that are being done in that area.

To lay any blame for this on this customer is wrong.


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## bluemoon737 (Feb 21, 2007)

bluemoon737 said:


> Looking at the pictures, there might be an opening in the other corner of the yard shooting below the leaf line of the trees (basically shooting to the left side of that tree bundle). A small post mount might work there. In any case, good luck.


Somewhere near that yellow post (the one by the walkway?) in the second pic should work. A low profile post mount should be able to aim nicely in the area of your yard.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

RobertE said:


> Hard to say. I guess for me at least, it all comes back to another customer not being the least bit invovled in the install.
> 
> Sure you shouldn't have to know every detail on how the sytem works end to end. But come on, wheres the common sense here (sorry to the OP).
> 
> ...


I would disagree to some extent here. Doctors and lawyers are responsible for people's lives and livelihood and go to school for an extra 7-10 years to learn to do so. If they take the state medical board or bar exams and pass, I'm inclined to think they have the qualifications needed to perform the tasks, regardless of lousy bedside manner.

HVAC costs thousands of dollars and is an integral part of a home and the occupants' comfort.

Let's not put choosing a TV service provider on the same level as choosing a doctor or lawyer. Choose the wrong TV provider, you wind up with no TV = boredom. Choose the wrong doctor, you wind up dead. Not really the same.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

bluemoon737 said:


> Somewhere near that yellow post (the one by the walkway?) in the second pic should work. A low profile post mount should be able to aim nicely in the area of your yard.


Would they try to charge me for putting in a post mount and running the cable to the house? That yellow post is one of two support rods for the utility pole that runs the phone, electric and internet cables to the house. I wonder if they would need utility surveys done first to see if there is anything under there that shouldn't be dug up.


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## john1117 (Jun 9, 2007)

It is truly amazing how one thinks. I think most people, even people with common sense would leave it to the expert to setup the install. To even question that and try to put any blame on the op is crazy. I hope all works out.


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## 456521 (Jul 6, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Hard to say. I guess for me at least, it all comes back to another customer not being the least bit invovled in the install.
> 
> Sure you shouldn't have to know every detail on how the sytem works end to end. But come on, wheres the common sense here (sorry to the OP).
> 
> ...


Wow.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

while we know trees are bad, during winter in some areas that actually might have been only place. if the choice is a tree or no install, what do you do?


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## coldsteel (Mar 29, 2007)

kjjb0204 said:


> Would they try to charge me for putting in a post mount and running the cable to the house? That yellow post is one of two support rods for the utility pole that runs the phone, electric and internet cables to the house. I wonder if they would need utility surveys done first to see if there is anything under there that shouldn't be dug up.


I would fight any charge to relocate the dish in this situation.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

bonscott87 said:


> Honestly, from what I've seen in the pics I think you can get service easily by:
> 
> 1) Getting that dish properly installed on a pole, looks like it should shoot over the trees, the sats are much higher in the sky then you think and are at a higher angle then the dish points
> 
> ...


Agreed, the height of the roof looks fine, although pictures can lie.


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## roadrunner1782 (Sep 28, 2008)

I have to agree with others here that the installer is to blame. (Sorry RobertE) I will go one step further and say maybe some of his training is to blame as well, although I find it hard to believe they would fail to mention to him during training that the mast has to be attatched to an extremely stable structure! With that said, from the looks of the pictures it seems like finding a good LOS wouldn't be too hard. I hope things work out for you.


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## bluemoon737 (Feb 21, 2007)

kjjb0204 said:


> Would they try to charge me for putting in a post mount and running the cable to the house? That yellow post is one of two support rods for the utility pole that runs the phone, electric and internet cables to the house. I wonder if they would need utility surveys done first to see if there is anything under there that shouldn't be dug up.


I don't think you should/would be charged...it's their fault in particular since you questioned the install in the first point. Utility surveys are always a good idea when digging up your yard when there is any question.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

I'd say far right front corner of your roof would be perfect mounting for the dish.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Im dying to read the outcome of this story. FWIw, Ive had a KU dish mounted on a tree for 5 yrs for the 97 degree FTA sat. The beamwidth for KU on a 18" dish would take years for a 100' oak to grow enough to reach the -3db point.... Thats just a single sat, one channel deal though. I installed my Slimline on a nice pole in concrete, as are a 6 and 10'.

I find it hard to believe anyone is laying any blame on the OP though. Ive installed all my sat equipment since the days when HBO was analog AND unscrambled. My mother, she wouldnt have a clue about proper mounting. If she got her tennis channel after the installer left, she would consider it a done right deal.

Ive seen dishes mounted on stakes on the roadside, with cables running deep back into the woods, on mailbox poles above the mailbox, on porch roofs. Drive around rural Arkansas and you will see every non-approved install known to man, but they must work.

Hope the reinstall works out for the OP. Yard has lots less trees than mine, and I found a spot...the ONLY spot.


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## woodybeetle (Feb 28, 2008)

kjjb0204 said:


> Really, who would I ask for a second opinion? If I called DirecTV to voice my concerns, they would have just said the installer is the professional and he should be relied upon to provide the best answer. Here are a few pics....
> 
> The dish is on a tree to the right of the house pointing across the front yard to the left. You can see in pic 2 that the dish is basically pointing right into those trees. You can see in the third pic that the house is surrounded by tall trees, so roof mounting wouldn't work either. Technician is coming tomorrow. The customer service rep asked me if I could cut down all the trees in the way.


This installer needs to have a talk with me about the right and the wrong places to mount a dish. ON A TREE is not even in the ballpark. I hope to hell this installer has moved on to McDonalds.


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## JB292 (Apr 25, 2009)

It appears that there should be available locations for a pole mount. Make sure the technician has an inclinometer this time.  I'd advise against mounting on the house, as it'd be a little hard to remove snow/ice.

I can sort of see why the original installer couldn't do a proper mount at the time, because of the snow and ice. He should have postponed the installation till better weather.


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## my1423 (May 16, 2009)

If you already have utilities coming into the house at that pole then you should have conduit run for it. Should be plenty of room to blow through some new lines. A vacuum tape and string can do wonders. Only problem is its a long run line and you already have a really long run of cable. The Best signal is the shortest run possible. You could have degredation from that run. How far is your current runs? 200+ feet? The shortest run would be the roof. Then you get another problem. Snow buildup! With it down low near that walkway you can easily wipe it off but on the top of the roof your hosed. Bottom line your hosed on your whole install but it can be done. Just remember that to get your line of sight its not from the lnb but above it. The dish focuses it down to it.


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## Laserjock (Mar 7, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Hard to say. I guess for me at least, it all comes back to another customer not being the least bit invovled in the install.
> 
> When I had new HVAC put in, I checked out several local companies, followed up on referals. From that I went with who I felt gave me my best value for my dollar and had a good rep. Not just who gave the rock bottom price.


So would you know if they had not installed your HVAC exactly has they should have, despite having good reps from your referrals, or did you trust that the guy the company sent out did it exactly as he was supposed to because it is running apparently as it should?

I think that any enthusiast is amazed that newbies to a particular technology don't see the "obvious" and its easy to criticize them for it. Your obvious and his obvious are two different things....obviously


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## roadrunner1782 (Sep 28, 2008)

Davenlr said:


> Im dying to read the outcome of this story. FWIw, Ive had a KU dish mounted on a tree for 5 yrs for the 97 degree FTA sat. The beamwidth for KU on a 18" dish would take years for a 100' oak to grow enough to reach the -3db point.... Thats just a single sat, one channel deal though. I installed my Slimline on a nice pole in concrete, as are a 6 and 10'.
> 
> I find it hard to believe anyone is laying any blame on the OP though. Ive installed all my sat equipment since the days when HBO was analog AND unscrambled. My mother, she wouldnt have a clue about proper mounting. If she got her tennis channel after the installer left, she would consider it a done right deal.
> 
> ...


+1 My mom actually thinks when the tv says searching for satellite signal that the small dish 500 she has pole mounted in the yard is actually moving around to find the signal!:lol:


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Laserjock said:


> I think that any enthusiast is amazed that newbies to a particular technology don't see the "obvious" and its easy to criticize them for it. Your obvious and his obvious are two different things....obviously


When I first got DirecTV in the 90's, the installer went to put the dish along the low roofline on the back of my garage. I asked if he should mount it along a high roofline to get better reception. He told me he gets that question a lot, since most people are used to OTA antennas where height matters. But since the satellite is 1000 miles away, he said, 15 feet higher doesn't make a difference. (And you don't have to compensate for Earth curvature.)

Once he said it, it was obvious to me. Before, not so obvious.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Update - appt was for 12-4, tech called me this morning at 7:30 to see if he could come earlier. I preferred earlier, so worked fine. He was outside trying fresh connectors, checking angle, los, everything he could try, then came to the house. Said "off the record" this install never should have happened. There are no good locations on my house to mount and get a good signal. He went to all four corners of the roof, different spots in the yard, said the best he could get on the HD satellites was about 25% signal strength and he would never install service with only 25%. He gave me two options - cancel or cut down the trees. So, he called in to customer service and had them make notes that LOS was lousy and when I call to cancel after I have Comcast set up, that there will be no etf and he'll even have them send me pre-paid packaging to ship the receivers back. He'll come out after the service is stopped to take down the dish.

He then went out to the dish, hooked it back up so I at least have something until Comcast comes out, then came back and called cs again to make sure they made the proper notes on my account. 

All in all, I'm regrettably going to have to cancel DTV service and go back to Comcast, but this installer was about the nicest, most professional utility guy I've met. Definitely going to miss the service.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

That stinks (about not having DirecTV) but I still think you can get a good signal from those pics. Perhaps get an independent dealer locally to come check LOS for you. It might cost you $50 or so but might be worth it.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

In your 2nd pic the dish is pointed to those trees to the left of your house. Are those trees on your property? How far to the left does your property go? Cause I'd think a pole mount *under* or to the left of those trees would word as well. Or from where the dish is now, move off to the right on a pole mount to shoot over the trees.

I still think it's very doable.

Also check this site out: http://gjullien.fr/satellite3.htm

You can use the position of the moon or sun to see if you have LOS to the various sats. This time of year you'd most likely use the moon. Looks like on Thursday you can use the moon around noonish or so (at my location).

Anyway, good luck!


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## JB292 (Apr 25, 2009)

I AM an installer, and find it hard to believe you have no LOS locations. I'd be willing to bet that up on the top of the house would be high enough to get over any trees. The tech would have to have a 40 ft. ladder. But as I said before, snow and ice could be a problem in the winter. 

If you still want the service, you might call DirecTV, and request a second opinion. In our area, a supervisor would come to give a site survey.


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## bluemoon737 (Feb 21, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> In your 2nd pic the dish is pointed to those trees to the left of your house. Are those trees on your property? How far to the left does your property go? Cause I'd think a pole mount *under* or to the left of those trees would word as well. Or from where the dish is now, move off to the right on a pole mount to shoot over the trees.
> 
> I still think it's very doable.
> 
> ...


I agree...it sounds like the second guy was at least somewhat more thorough, but I still think you have LOS on that property based on the pictures.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> That stinks (about not having DirecTV) but I still think you can get a good signal from those pics. Perhaps get an independent dealer locally to come check LOS for you. It might cost you $50 or so but might be worth it.


This is the route I had to go and I recommend it - maybe it was the extra dough, who knows, but the installers I got from the local company were a lot more thorough in researching a location versus the DirecTV guys.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Again, I have to trust the "professional" when he says there just is no good place to put the dish. Granted, I could probably have one on a post at the far corner of the yard by the driveway and street, but really wouldn't want that sitting way out there with such a long run to the house. Not to mention, there's something I like to call curb appeal, and a big dish on a post wouldn't do much for appeal. The professional said it can't be done, so I have to take him for his word on that. I really don't think he would have gone to all the trouble to call customer service to make sure I don't get charged if he thought there was a remote chance I could keep the service.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Unfortunately the issue here is you get what you pay for and since there is no cost for this...well...you get what you pay for. I don't trust any of these installers to touch any of my stuff. Only type of professional installer I would trust would be one I would pay to do the job right. 

Seriously, do the moon sighting and see where you can put the dish. Costs you nothing and you can know for sure if you have LOS or not. I would do anything to keep away from cable and a little education and legwork on your part can go a long way.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Seriously, do the moon sighting and see where you can put the dish. Costs you nothing and you can know for sure if you have LOS.


I concur. I always use the sun/moon method. It hasnt failed me in 5 Directv self installs. The benefit to this method is you can see if a tree(s) growth will cause problems in a few years as well. Now with SWM, you can place he dish just about anywhere and only worry about running a single wire.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Davenlr said:


> I concur. I always use the sun/moon method. It hasnt failed me in 5 Directv self installs. The benefit to this method is you can see if a tree(s) growth will cause problems in a few years as well. Now with SWM, you can place he dish just about anywhere and only worry about running a single wire.


Yep. I was pretty worried about a big tree I have in the front yard growing into my LOS in a few years. But after doing the sun sighting I found the sats were waaaaaay higher up then I had thought and I'll never have a problem with that tree.

As for cable length with the OP was concerned with, max length is about 100 feet but you can go longer then that if you put in a signal booster in the line. And assuming you have all newer equipment then get an SWM dish setup and you'll only have to bury one cable to the house.


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## mluntz (Jul 13, 2006)

David MacLeod said:


> while we know trees are bad, during winter in some areas that actually might have been only place. if the choice is a tree or no install, what do you do?


No install until it can be done properly.


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## trainman (Jan 9, 2008)

Upstream said:


> But since the satellite is 1000 miles away, he said, 15 feet higher doesn't make a difference.


Did he really say "1,000 miles"? That figure is a little off -- actual distance is about 22,000 miles. So 15 feet _really_ doesn't make a difference.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

trainman said:


> Did he really say "1,000 miles"? That figure is a little off -- actual distance is about 22,000 miles. So 15 feet _really_ doesn't make a difference.


This was over 10 years ago. I don't remember if he said "a thousand miles", "twenty thousand miles", or "thousands of miles". But the point is the same either way.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Well, Comcast installed cable today. HD picture definitely is a shade lower quality than dtv. Menus are lightning fast, instant response. That's one thing I hated about dtv. Oh well...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> You wouldn't. Not mounting it on a tree makes perfect sense after reading this thread, but I'm not sure I would have thought of it had it been my install.


Also, it sounds like the previous dishes only looked at one sat.. Which means there is more leway in the movement of the dish than there is for a dish looking at 5 different sats, and has to be tweaked to a perfect position to get all signals properly.. I can easily see how this particular situation isn't cut and dry at all, and frankly, I expect that the installer was newer, other wise he might have realized that this dish needs to be to perfect to mount on a tree that will most likely swap easily in the wind even at that low height of mounting when its got leaves....

I have a feeling your dish pointing is the issue, not the tree height. The dishes usually look like they are pointing up at about a 20 to 40 degree angle, but the sats are actually higher up than that... Your house looks like the roof would easily get you high enough to never have an issue, although a decent pole mount where its at now would probably work too..

I look forward to hearing what the tech says when he shows up....


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

RobertE said:


> When I had new HVAC put in, I checked out several local companies, followed up on referals. From that I went with who I felt gave me my best value for my dollar and had a good rep. Not just who gave the rock bottom price.
> 
> Why is that so hard for people to do when it comes to getting TV service?


When I had mine put in (last year) I called a local supplier, wrote a P.O. out from the place I work, Wrote a check to my boss, borowed a company truck, took it home and hired one of our service guys to help put it in. Since I am a project engineer for a Mechanical Contractor I got my 94% Furnace, 13 SEER 2.5 Ton Cooling condesing unit and 2.5 ton Coil at cost.... So I went to the cheapest place I could find, and I know it was done right, oh and uh yeah I did trust the advice of the person doing the install.......


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## dubber deux (Mar 8, 2009)

GoBeavs said:


> I find it amazing that anyone can put even 1/1000th of one percent of the blame on the OP.


Absolutely correct.

D* understands that the typical customer liklely has little or NO understanding of the technical complexities of how sat tv works.

The OP has no responsibility for the incompetent actions of D*'s installer.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

UPDATE:

Ok, now I'm getting super pissed. Got my final bill, $365. Showing the early termination fee. Called DirecTV, they said I now have to send a copy of the final bill to their billing disputes department for review. This is AFTER the cs rep confirmed with the technician at my house that it would be all set. Also, they just deducted another monthly payment from my bank account yesterday, as if my service was still active. By any chance are there any DTV cs people on these boards I could pm? This is getting ridiculous. When we buy a new house in the next 6 months, I had every intention of going back to DirecTV if it's possible with a good LOS, but after this experience, not so sure.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

kjjb0204 said:


> When we buy a new house in the next 6 months, I had every intention of going back to DirecTV if it's possible with a good LOS, but after this experience, not so sure.


It sounds like you should have suspended your account.

When it comes to your bill, don't even ask CSRs or installers.


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## MIKE0616 (Dec 13, 2006)

kjjb0204 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Ok, now I'm getting super pissed. Got my final bill, $365. Showing the early termination fee. Called DirecTV, they said I now have to send a copy of the final bill to their billing disputes department for review. This is AFTER the cs rep confirmed with the technician at my house that it would be all set. Also, they just deducted another monthly payment from my bank account yesterday, as if my service was still active. By any chance are there any DTV cs people on these boards I could pm? This is getting ridiculous. When we buy a new house in the next 6 months, I had every intention of going back to DirecTV if it's possible with a good LOS, but after this experience, not so sure.


Call your credit card company and fill out the necessary forms to dispute the charge. Also, send the info you have to D*, but remember, D* has a history of not wanting to issue refunds, they like to do account credits.

This is the reason that I use "ShopSafe" from BofA that creates a one-time credit card number with a dollar limit on it (use that for any and all web purchases as well) so they cannot charge my account for anything that I have not seen and authorized for payment. Yes, its a pain to change the CC number every month, but no surprises. 

Note to the fanboys: Save your breath about ShopSafe being dishonest, its a "one time payment" according to their site, so why do they need the "real" account number. D* gets paid before the due date, like clockwork.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Yep, I'm going to try disputing with my cc company and sending a message to Ellen Filipiak, on recommendation of a member here via pm. Will update.....

Thanks!


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

It might also be wise to turn off automatic bill pay, since it appears you have it set to auto deduct from your bank acct.


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## dmbj (Jun 11, 2009)

and if you ever do move and get direct tv again make sure you have a different phone number at the new house.

Interesting thred to read though, I cant believe they mounted that on a tree. and with the snow you get there there is no way i would want the dish out of broom reach.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

CCarncross said:


> It might also be wise to turn off automatic bill pay, since it appears you have it set to auto deduct from your bank acct.


already shows disabled on my account.....


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Watchout .... even if you dispute the charge with your CC and get the charge reversed DirecTV can AND WILL still send you to collections for non-payment. 

The only sure way out of a contract with them is to send them your ashes and even then you have to have them verify your DNA.


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## kjjb0204 (Jan 25, 2009)

Just got an email from Customer Advocate Team at DirecTV. Credited the ETF, Protection Plan fee and are refunding the recent credit card charge and back dating credit for services from the date I canceled. All in all, they are crediting back my credit card for $75, leaving a zero balance on my closed account. Great job here from DirecTV (except of course for the botched installation) and I will definitely sign up again when we buy a house, provided we have good LOS. Really did enjoy the service and programming and hated that I couldn't keep it.


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