# DIRECTV HD TiVo (THR22-100) Anticipation (Official Q311 Thread)



## Stuart Sweet

Folks, there's precious little to say about the upcoming DIRECTV TiVo-based device that hasn't already been said, but here's the thread for you to say it. There really is nothing new but if there is you'll read it here. 

Synopsis of common arguments: (in other words, this ground's already been trodden, do we have to go there again?)

Many people like the TiVo interface, especially the list guide. 
Many people are equally fond of the DIRECTV interface. 
Many people think that TiVos are easier for them to use.
Many people think that DIRECTV DVRs are easier for them to use.
Standalone TiVo devices have many features that are appealing to people. 
No guarantee has been made that any feature from a standalone TiVo will make it to the DIRECTV TiVo. 
The new device will run on DIRECTV hardware, although we don't know how that will work (we have some ideas). 
TiVo, Inc. will develop the software for the device and seems to be solely responsible for the user experience.
Ground Rules:

DISCUSS THE TOPIC NOT EACH OTHER.
This is not a free-for-all. Rudeness will not be tolerated.
Remember that all forum rules are still in effect.
Do not "bump" this thread.
Other threads relating to the DirecTV TiVo-HD Receiver will be closed. 
If you harp on a particular point to the exclusion of others, your posts may be deleted.

Further, we've learned that the new TiVo for DIRECTV will *not* have the upgraded user experience seen in the TiVo Premiere.


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## Stuart Sweet

Please anticipate (respectfully.)


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## LameLefty

I respectfully anticipate that we're all still anticipating too early.


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## Mike Greer

I am surprised that Tivo is even going to bother releasing this thing. When/if it ever shows up it will be on 3-4+ year old hardware? Doesn't sound like much of a selling point. Add in that it will essentially be the old HD DirecTivo with MPEG4 and it borders on downright pathetic!

It's a shame that a company that once had quite the pioneering spirit has ended up this way. They should be working on the 3rd generation of HD Tivo for DirecTV by now.


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## kevinwmsn

I am anticipating it won't be this quarter.:lol:


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## joshjr

Where did this THR22-100 come from? I dont look at this thread that often. Does someone actually have some information on this receiver?


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## Stuart Sweet

I've heard from several sources that THR22-100 is the working model name for this new receiver. I believe it was found in a UL listing about a year ago... here's the post where it was first mentioned on this site: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2579999#post2579999


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## Jeremy W

I anticipate that the DVR this thread is anticipating will never see the light of day.

So nothing new from me!


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## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> I've heard from several sources that THR22-100 is the working model name for this new receiver. I believe it was found in a UL listing about a year ago... here's the post where it was first mentioned on this site: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2579999#post2579999


I googled the model number, found some discussions about the software updates in the recent reports. It appeared TiVo continued to provide updates for the test boxes with new firmware versions in the field, DirecTV continued to ask for more testing.

TiVo's poison pill should expire before the end of the year. There has been consistent rumor of a possible buyout. The speculated buyers have been somewhat narrowed down to MSFT or Google.

Now MSFT provides DVR services for Uverse, Google has close working relations with Dish. We know both Uverse and Dish are DirecTV's competitors, I don't blame DirecTV if it tries to take a wait and see approach.


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## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> TiVo's poison pill should expire before the end of the year. There has been consistent rumor of a possible buyout. The speculated buyers have been somewhat narrowed down to MSFT or Google.


Tivo's only truly valuable assets are their patents. The software is crap, the hardware is relatively generic, and they don't have very many subscribers. And by all outward appearances, their employees are incompetent. So it wouldn't even be worth keeping them around.


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## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> Tivo's only truly valuable assets are their patents. The software is crap, the hardware is relatively generic, and they don't have very many subscribers. And by all outward appearances, their employees are incompetent. So it wouldn't even be worth keeping them around.


I won't call TiVo's patents truly valuable assets, they do have value but not nearly as much as they make it out to be. However TiVo is 90+% institutionally owned, the big guys have a lot of reasons to pump it. It is currently the second most expensive stock based on sales, to maintain that, the only way for now is to pump the value of their patents.

One way to do that is to keep the buyout speculation going, but the side effect of it could be that everyone is waiting for the picture to clear.


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## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> I won't call TiVo's patents truly valuable assets, they do have value but not nearly as much as they make it out to be.


Well they managed to use them to get a nice sum of money out of Echostar and a license agreement out of DirecTV, so I'd say they're pretty valuable.


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## Stuart Sweet

Come on, guys. We're back to trying to twist each other's posts around? 

Something that has value is valuable. I don't know what "truly valuable" or "pretty valuable" means; to me it doesn't mean anything.

Please, if you want to pick each other's nits, do so in private messages.


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## jacmyoung

Based on what I have read on a few other discussion forums, this thing has gone through extensive testing, received many updates, is likely ready to deploy, so why the delay till December?


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## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Based on what I have read on a few other discussion forums, this thing ... is likely ready to deploy


Where did you read that?


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## LI-SVT

I know it is expected that at launch the new DirecTiVo will not have MRV, but will it have any media share features. The HR2X and current stand alone TiVos support local network music playing and picture slide shows.

Is there any chance that the current networkable DirecTiVos, think HR10 here, will get any updates to add media share?


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## hdtvfan0001

Keeping it simple....I anticipate the new Tivo unit will finally appear in 3Q 2011.


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## Jeremy W

LI-SVT said:


> Is there any chance that the current networkable DirecTiVos, think HR10 here, will get any updates to add media share?


Nope.


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## Stuart Sweet

LI-SVT said:


> I know it is expected that at launch the new DirecTiVo will not have MRV, but will it have any media share features. The HR2X and current stand alone TiVos support local network music playing and picture slide shows.
> 
> Is there any chance that the current networkable DirecTiVos, think HR10 here, will get any updates to add media share?


I would be very surprised if the THR22 has any media sharing, at least not at first. HR10s.... definitely not.


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## LI-SVT

Thanks guys.

Count me as another person that perfers the TiVo UI but the HR feature set will keep me in my 2 HR21s.


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## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> Based on what I have read on a few other discussion forums, this thing has gone through extensive testing, received many updates, is likely ready to deploy, so why the delay till December?


Ready to deploy is misleading as it's opinion based. Without specific features, to me, it would never be ready to deploy.

They won't order units to have software loaded on until both TiVo and DIRECTV sign off as it's ready for production. Once that happens they'll order units which will take time. Then they'll have to get the marketing campaigns started as well as training for the test markets. That will take at least 1 if not 2 months. Then there will be inevitible delays of some sort. All of that is just for the soft/teaser/test launch. Then they have to go full production after they fix issues that are encountered with the first launch. That usually takes 2-3 months or so based on prior launch's.

Then after people hear what it has and doesn't have they have to see how many they project to order. The usual problem with hardware launch's are they're successful and you have a supply issue. I don't see this one being a problem though even if they low ball the consumer demand.


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## Mike Bertelson

Shades228 said:


> Ready to deploy is misleading as it's opinion based. Without specific features, to me, it would never be ready to deploy.<snip>


Why is it misleading and opinion based?

You can see the THR22-100 in the title. There has be extensive discussion of what features are to be included and which will not.

Based on what's been posted, it doesn't seem misleading at all. AAMOF it seems we know more now than we ever did and finally have a solid idea of what's going on.

I guess you can say you don't trust the information but, IMHO, it is far from misleading.

My 3.34¢ :grin:

Mike


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## usnret

I anticipate anticipating...


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## balboadave

Doug Brott said:


> Folks (including me) really liked TiVo when they came out. It was great. The thing that I hated the most was when my Series 1 became obsolete after about 18 months. No more updates, no more cool features. Had to get the Series 2 for that.
> 
> The HR2x have been great in that all features are available on all (OK, not quite .. no 3D on the 20s, and OTA is an add-on, but I don't use OTA ). I'm pretty sure many of the diehards have moved on at this point, but there are still some holdouts .. Those that have SD TiVos will look to upgrade.


Isn't that the main reason for this new TiVo unit? To give all of the existing Series 1 and 2 customers a path to upgrade? For them, this will be an improvement, as they won't know what they're missing with the HR series. DirecTV might even require them to upgrade.


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## Jeremy W

balboadave said:


> DirecTV might even require them to upgrade.


Very highly doubtful.


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## johnner1999

Why wouldn't it have MRV??? The new Premiere boxes in the last update have a stream feature (not listed but does function) along with transfer as an option - I assume the transfer command would not be enabled on any D* TiVo box! Now this is a huge assumption on my part but....

RePlayTV - holds the patent for streaming! 
DirecTV bought RePlay a few years ago no? 
TiVo has never had this feature (some say its was a hardware limitation which is correct BUT TiVo would/didn't want to pay RePlayTV)
TiVo starts working with DirecTV again
TiVo starts to have its newer STB's stream but not known yet by the public


LONG <Short 
I think the D* box will be available once they perfect this stream function (by available - I mean an official launch date and or product specs) 


BUT who's knows this "company" doesn't seem to give a rants but about customers - the new owners seem to run it like an old fashioned cable-co


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## bonscott87

johnner1999 said:


> Why wouldn't it have MRV??? The new Premiere boxes in the last update have a stream feature (not listed but does function) along with transfer as an option - I assume the transfer command would not be enabled on any D* TiVo box! Now this is a huge assumption on my part but....


Remember though that this new DirecTivo box is not based on the Premier so what it does and doesn't do has nothing to do with the Premier. It is the "Tivo Classic" software that will be on this box. You know, the 10 year old version of the Tivo software.


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## elaclair

Have not been following the original threads for a while, has it been ruled out that this could be a software upgrade to your existing system? ie can you do a software pull and change your HR24-100 to a THR24-100?


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## Mike Bertelson

elaclair said:


> Have not been following the original threads for a while, has it been ruled out that this could be a software upgrade to your existing system? ie can you do a software pull and change your HR24-100 to a THR24-100?


It's likely that the THR22-100 is a TiVo branded unit.

You won't be able to turn your HR24 into a TiVo.

Mike


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## jacmyoung

johnner1999 said:


> RePlayTV - holds the patent for streaming!
> DirecTV bought RePlay a few years ago no?


Every company now has streaming between their boxes so I don't think the above theory holds.


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## johnner1999

jacmyoung said:


> Every company now has streaming between their boxes so I don't think the above theory holds.


It very well might hold true - or AT&T, Comcast etc pay a royalty (like E* is doing to TiVo and other do as well)

or the other brands came up with a way to stream that didn't violate the patent


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## Doug Brott

Regardless, TiVo and DIRECTV have reciprocal non-litigation agreements regarding technology .. e.g. they cross-license. I'm sure TiVo could use any STB related Patents than DIRECTV may hold if TiVo wanted to.

At this point, who know. Maybe TiVo saw the light and decided to add MRV .. heck, I actually think it will be there in the "second version" that comes out. But we're still waiting on the first version and it will be at least 36 months from the original "It's coming" announcement in 2008 before we'll even see that.


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## Shades228

Mike Bertelson said:


> Why is it misleading and opinion based?
> 
> You can see the THR22-100 in the title. There has be extensive discussion of what features are to be included and which will not.
> 
> Based on what's been posted, it doesn't seem misleading at all. AAMOF it seems we know more now than we ever did and finally have a solid idea of what's going on.
> 
> I guess you can say you don't trust the information but, IMHO, it is far from misleading.
> 
> My 3.34¢ :grin:
> 
> Mike


Saying something is ready for launch when it doesn't cover what most people now would consider a basic ability of all HD DVR's with DIRECTV is an opinion.

If a company were to launch a premium priced blue ray player without network connectivity would you call that ready for launch? Most people would say it was pushed out before everything that it needs was done. While there has been extensive discussions about what people may or may not know about the features that will be there at launch time.

It's not trusting information that I read here it's trusting information that I know.



Doug Brott said:


> Regardless, TiVo and DIRECTV have reciprocal non-litigation agreements regarding technology .. e.g. they cross-license. I'm sure TiVo could use any STB related Patents than DIRECTV may hold if TiVo wanted to.
> 
> At this point, who know. Maybe TiVo saw the light and decided to add MRV .. heck, I actually think it will be there in the "second version" that comes out. But we're still waiting on the first version and it will be at least 36 months from the original "It's coming" announcement in 2008 before we'll even see that.


Just because they can cross license certain patents that doesn't mean that either company can put a feature in that the other says no to due to a patent. Maybe one company has a patent that isn't covered, or public allowed at this point, and the other company won't allow that particular feature or software to be used.


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## Doug Brott

Shades228 said:


> Just because they can cross license certain patents that doesn't mean that either company can put a feature in that the other says no to due to a patent. Maybe one company has a patent that isn't covered, or public allowed at this point, and the other company won't allow that particular feature or software to be used.


It is true that I haven't read the agreement myself .. BUT .. it's clear that pretty much anything goes between the two companies with respect to features, etc. in DVRs. As long as it sticks in the technology realm and their not disparaging each other I doubt that there will be much of an issue. Clearly TiVo won't be able to steal a DIRECTV technology and produce it, but are reverse engineering or "similar" feature is probably fair game.

Besides, aren't Patents by nature "public?"


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## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Regardless, TiVo and DIRECTV have reciprocal non-litigation agreements regarding technology .. e.g. they cross-license.


I think he meant DirecTV can demand royalties from ATT/Comcast...for MRV, since he thought Replay holds the patent on in-home streaming. I doubt this is the case though.


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## Shades228

Doug Brott said:


> It is true that I haven't read the agreement myself .. BUT .. it's clear that pretty much anything goes between the two companies with respect to features, etc. in DVRs. As long as it sticks in the technology realm and their not disparaging each other I doubt that there will be much of an issue. Clearly TiVo won't be able to steal a DIRECTV technology and produce it, but are reverse engineering or "similar" feature is probably fair game.
> 
> Besides, aren't Patents by nature "public?"


Public in terms of open for use by all compared to private use where you would have to have an agreement setup by them. As far as anything goes between the two companies we'll just have to agree to disagree on that part.


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## Doug Brott

All I know is that DIRECTV is happily using features that TiVo has sued others for .. TiVo & DIRECTV have an agreement .. Sure it may not be a free for all, but I seriously doubt that there is much more than a "Hey, can we do this?" phone call regarding any Patents.

Besides, I'm not looking up nor quoting any Patents .. I don't care that much. I just don't see any Patent issues getting in the way of DIRECTV or TiVo when it relates to each other.


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## Brennok

bonscott87 said:


> Remember though that this new DirecTivo box is not based on the Premier so what it does and doesn't do has nothing to do with the Premier. It is the "Tivo Classic" software that will be on this box. You know, the 10 year old version of the Tivo software.


Well it is not based on the premiere ui, but even in the classic ui on the premiere streaming works.

Of course who knows what code they are using. It seems to make sense to use the current, Premiere based, assuming it is easily compatible. It would just be a matter of not including the HDUI portion.


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## jacmyoung

Shades228 said:


> Public in terms of open for use by all compared to private use where you would have to have an agreement setup by them.


That is misleading because most patents are public, with the exception of a minority that are deemed classified. A patent not only is public, but also must provide detailed enough descriptions so that a person skilled in the field can duplicate the invention without undue experimentation, i.e. can copy it without much difficulty.

A patent usually consists of multiple steps to describe an invention, if that person can copy the invention without using all of the described steps, he can copy it without consequences. So for example if the patent describes 10 steps, he can copy 9 out of 10, skip one step or replace it with one of his own, he is allowed to do so without permission by the patent holder. He of course risks being liable if the patent holder can sue and prove that he actually copied all 10 of the steps.



> As far as anything goes between the two companies we'll just have to agree to disagree on that part.


I agree with Doug that the agreement between DirecTV and TiVo is practically a no-sue agreement, but regardless, since DirecTV now holds ReplayTV patents, even without such agreement, TiVo WILL NOT sue DirecTV.

If you are correct that ReplayTV (therefore DirecTV) actually holds the in-home streaming patent, DirecTV can sue other companies for infringing on its patent. But DirecTV is unlikely going to bother TiVo if TiVo infringes on such streaming patent due to their agreement.

As far as TiVo's Premiere goes, I do recall even before it, TiVo already had MRV on their classic DVRs. The THR22 should be able to do MRV easily without even using the Premiere code, just that DirecTV does not want such functions on the THR22. What that means is, the further delay is unlikely the result of them trying to add MRV or some other additional features to the THR22 before the rollout.


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## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> That is misleading because most patents are public, with the exception of a minority that are deemed classified. A patent not only is public, but also must provide detailed enough descriptions so that a person skilled in the field can duplicate the invention without undue experimentation, i.e. can copy it.
> 
> A patent ususally consists of multiple steps to describe an invention, if that person can copy the invention without using all of the described steps, he can copy it without consequences. So for example if the patent describes 10 steps, he can copy 9 out of 10, skip one step or replace it with one of his own, he is allowed to do so without permission by the patent holder. He of course risks being liable if the patent holder can sue and prove that he actually copied all 10 of the steps.
> 
> I agree with Doug that the agreement between DirecTV and TiVo is practically a no-sue agreement, but regardless, since DirecTV now holds ReplayTV patents, even without such agreement, TiVo WILL NOT sue DirecTV.
> 
> If you are correct that ReplayTV (therefore DirecTV) actually holds the in-home streaming patent, DirecTV can sue other companies for infringing on its patent. But DirecTV is unlikely going to bother TiVo if TiVo infringes on such streaming patent due to their agreement.


I could use open source and not public is that better? You can have a patent but not enforce it and let others know it's not being enforced. I have no idea what the technical term is if any but that's what I was talking about.

As far as the patent agreement again we have to agree to disagree on this.


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## jacmyoung

Shades228 said:


> I could use open source and not public is that better?


But the patents we are talking about are not open source. DirecTV did not spend $30 million plus to buy the ReplayTV patents just to make them open source. I am pretty sure TiVo does not consider its patents open source


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## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> But the patents we are talking about are not open source. DirecTV did not spend $30 million plus to buy the ReplayTV patents just to make them open source. I am pretty sure TiVo does not consider its patents open source


Perhaps that's the issue that's at hand then.


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## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> But the patents we are talking about are not open source. DirecTV did not spend $30 million plus to buy the ReplayTV patents just to make them open source. I am pretty sure TiVo does not consider its patents open source


Patents are public. Full disclosure is the exchange for exclusivity backed by force of law. Go look them up if you're interested.


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## mkdtv21

I know that everyone complains that this Tivo is based on old hardware the hr22 but if this product is successful they may release a new model based on the hr24 or possibly something newer in the future that will have the premiere software on it. They can't just let people stay on the same box forever there's always upgrades and updates.


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## Stuart Sweet

Bottom line as I have said before is, set your expectations low and you won't be disappointed. I've been told over and over that this is a product designed to appeal to the SD TiVo users out there who haven't moved to HD because of the TiVo interface. It's not intended to impress those advanced users who miss TiVo.


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## Jeremy W

mkdtv21 said:


> but if this product is successful


:lol: As if this product has any chance of being successful, assuming it even launches. :lol:


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## jacmyoung

"Shades228" said:


> Perhaps that's the issue that's at hand then.


I have to say your theory is interesting. Since we don't know most of the details of the agreement, if we assume the no-sue or cross licensing only covers the DVR (recording and trick plays) related patents, not more than that, then this could be part of the reason it will be limited to just a standalone DVR, no more, no less.

The MRV technology is beyond your conventional DVR technologies. Maybe those who know more about the agreement can chime in.


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## Doug Brott

mkdtv21 said:


> I know that everyone complains that this Tivo is based on old hardware the hr22 but if this product is successful they may release a new model based on the hr24 or possibly something newer in the future that will have the premiere software on it. They can't just let people stay on the same box forever there's always upgrades and updates.


The first rev of the MPEG4 DIRECTiVo isn't even out and you've already moved on to the second edition


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## Shades228

Doug Brott said:


> The first rev of the MPEG4 DIRECTiVo isn't even out and you've already moved on to the second edition


Maybe he works for TiVo they're good at announcing things early.


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## BudShark

mkdtv21 said:


> I know that everyone complains that this Tivo is based on old hardware the hr22 but if this product is successful they may release a new model based on the hr24 or possibly something newer in the future that will have the premiere software on it. They can't just let people stay on the same box forever there's always upgrades and updates.


??? Not familar with Tivo's history on DirecTV are you? Late, previous generation, lacking current features, slow. Yep, that pretty much sums up Tivo on DirecTV.

The HR10 was a beast (and by beast I mean big, slow, stupid), and the SD Tivo's were never feature complete with the non-DirecTV models. I wouldn't put a lot of eggs in that basket. Especially with DirecTVs success of non-Tivo DVRs (regardless of what you may personally think of them, they've made a lot of people forget all about Tivo and they have a feature set Tivo will struggle to compete with).


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## newsposter

i cant wait for the new hdtivo..i hope my faith has been well placed! i'm soooo tired of the HRs 50sl limit and having to babysit


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## tonyd79

newsposter said:


> i cant wait for the new hdtivo..i hope my faith has been well placed! i'm soooo tired of the HRs 50sl limit and having to babysit


How long have you been tired? A second DVR would double the limit. Just sayin.


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## Davenlr

And add $$$ to the monthly bill. Changing a couple bytes in the programming code would be much better solution, buy alas, not profitable.


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## tonyd79

Davenlr said:


> And add $$$ to the monthly bill. Changing a couple bytes in the programming code would be much better solution, buy alas, not profitable.


Tivo will add $$$ to the monthly bill and the person I was responding to was willing to get the new Tivo to solve his problem. There are alternatives.

Things are what they are. You can buy what you buy or you can complain about it and manage with what you got. Choices are ours. Me, I would rather pay the extra couple bucks if it is solves a problem I have.

Oh, BTW, the added bonus of another DVR is two more tuners. A couple of bits in programming doesn't fix that.


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## jacmyoung

"tonyd79" said:


> Tivo will add $$$ to the monthly bill and the person I was responding to was willing to get the new Tivo to solve his problem. There are alternatives.
> 
> Things are what they are. You can buy what you buy or you can complain about it and manage with what you got. Choices are ours. Me, I would rather pay the extra couple bucks if it is solves a problem I have.
> 
> Oh, BTW, the added bonus of another DVR is two more tuners. A couple of bits in programming doesn't fix that.


Some people complain, not to seek solutions, only understanding


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## CompuDude

I'm curious to see what the final feature set looks like.

My wife dearly misses the Tivo interface, and I have to admit there are definitely things I preferred about the Tivo interface, too. As far as I've seen, the ONLY features the HR-series PVR's have that trumps my old HR10 is MPEG4 decoding (which obviously will be included on the new Tivo, when/if it ultimately ships) and MRV. MRV is the only real killer feature that I can think of that may (or may not) be missing from the new Tivo units. 

What other features are in the HR series that actually are demonstrably better than Tivo's interface, as opposed to pure personal preference? Having used both equally (we had HR-series downstairs, and HR10 upstairs, for many years), I can recall minor nits that annoyed be about each platform, when I switched from one to the other. MRV was the killer feature that finally let me break down my wife's resistance, but I know that if a new DirectTivo shipped that included MRV, she'd want me to get one in a heartbeat.

Interactive junk and media streaming are not interesting in the slightest to me, since I have other boxes that handle that far better than an DTV platform has shown to date.


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## Doug Brott

Other than changing the time frame to September or later (I'm not predicting at this point), check this link for features:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2743691#post2743691

I'll add to that that I think MRV will be added at some point, but who knows when that will be .. Look how long we took to get to this point.


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## SledgeHammer

I'm now upping my percentage of this thing getting scraped to 90% with news that Tivo is on the auction block / preparing itself for sale .


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## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> I'm now upping my percentage of this thing getting scraped to 90% with news that Tivo is on the auction block / preparing itself for sale .


If a takeover where to happen, then getting scrapped would be highly likely scenario.


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## MikeW

I'd really like to see the new HD-GUI to see if this is even worth anticipating any longer. Aside from Tivo Suggestions and Tivo To Go, I don't see any compelling reason to go with the Tivo interface. Based on the belief that we're talking a stripped down version of Tivo for the introduction, I'd bet even Tivo to Go won't be part of the equation.


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## bonscott87

SledgeHammer said:


> I'm now upping my percentage of this thing getting scraped to 90% with news that Tivo is on the auction block / preparing itself for sale .


Hmmmm, this was new to me (but I don't keep up with stuff like this anymore) but certainly some pretty interesting reading on Seeking Alpha about this.

In one article they even mention that the current agreement with DirecTV is on "pause". More hmmmmmmmmmm.

I'd agree with Doug in that if Tivo is bought out, and probably pretty cheaply at that, this project will be scrapped after they look at it's lack of potential to actually make any profit for Tivo's new owner.


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## Jeremy W

My prediction when this "product" was announced looks better and better every day!


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## NewForceFiveFan

Pardon my asking but what exactly does this thing do that an HR24 doesn't?


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## Davenlr

NewForceFiveFan said:


> Pardon my asking but what exactly does this thing do that an HR24 doesn't?


Records suggestions based on programs you like/dislike that you teach it


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## Mike Bertelson

NewForceFiveFan said:


> Pardon my asking but what exactly does this thing do that an HR24 doesn't?


That's a tough on to answer without searching through the previous threads but here is post by Doug from March. It's speculation but you get the picture. 



Doug Brott said:


> Probably June or July release (subject to change)
> No MRV
> I think, no ToGo
> No Netflix
> Might work with TiVo iPad app (don't think so)
> two 30-minute buffers (DLB)
> likely extra cost (initial and per month - but I'm not sure)
> Classic TiVo UI (not HD)
> Support for MPEG4
> TiVo KidZone
> TiVo Swivel Search
> Peanut Remote
> same hardware as HR22-100
> 
> This is what I know (or think I know, I don't have one) and is subject to change. As I've stated in the past, it's basically an HR10-250 with MPEG4 support. There will be very little difference.
> 
> If you've got to have the TiVo interface, you will have that option soon, but I suspect many of the folks @ DBSTalk will prefer MRV to TiVo. I expect the TiVo to be a decent set top box and if you are a diehard TiVo user, you should like it.


Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

"bonscott87" said:


> Hmmmm, this was new to me (but I don't keep up with stuff like this anymore) but certainly some pretty interesting reading on Seeking Alpha about this.
> 
> In one article they even mention that the current agreement with DirecTV is on "pause". More hmmmmmmmmmm.
> 
> I'd agree with Doug in that if Tivo is bought out, and probably pretty cheaply at that, this project will be scrapped after they look at it's lack of potential to actually make any profit for Tivo's new owner.


Back when I suggested the reason for the delay could be just that, I remember a few people not too happy to hear me saying so

On the other hand, don't be surprised joints like seeking alpha reading forums like DBATalk to gain pulse of the value of a company and then throw some ideas around


----------



## codespy

I am getting tired of reading about it.....when is this thing coming out?

Here is some other talk:

_DirecTV may finally allow the release of the DirecTV DVR with TiVo service (THR22-100). Rumor has it TiVo keeps making changes to satisfy DirecTV and they keep asking for more. I beleive that the release will be bad enough that it will be worse than the continued delay and thus the reason DirecTV is stalling. It will be interesting to see which company wins the spin war and gets the lesser black eye. One possible explanation for the delay is that DirecTV is hoping TiVo is taken over so they can invoke a contract clause to cancel the project outright._

http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=3928&mn=103931&pt=msg&mid=10688883


----------



## Doug Brott

I've been waiting for this spin for months now .. The feature set was determined long ago .. "asking for more" is a bit nebulous .. It has nothing to do with more features .. it has everything to do with getting it right in the first place.

It's unclear whether or not a TiVo takeover will ultimately affect the product itself (I'm hearing both ways) .. My bet, based on past history and the current long delay .. is that there will be a mutual decision to withdraw. I doubt DIRECTV can squash it completely unless particular companies are on the acquiring side (DISH comes to mine as one of them). Microsoft and/or Google may not be considered "on the list," but contacts can always be renegotiated and, as I said, they may mutually decide to withdraw if it comes to that.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> I've been waiting for this spin for months now .. The feature set was determined long ago .. "asking for more" is a bit nebulous...


That spin was here for months now, someone reading here took it there.

The problem is that the feature set was determined long ago and now almost obsolete compared to the newer receivers. They might need a new agreement or an amendment to add any new features.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> They might need a new agreement or an amendment to add any new features.


And another three years.


----------



## elaclair

Doug Brott said:


> I've been waiting for this spin for months now .. The feature set was determined long ago .. "asking for more" is a bit nebulous .. It has nothing to do with more features .. it has everything to do with getting it right in the first place.
> 
> It's unclear whether or not a TiVo takeover will ultimately affect the product itself (I'm hearing both ways) .. My bet, based on past history and the current long delay .. is that there will be a mutual decision to withdraw. I doubt DIRECTV can squash it completely unless particular companies are on the acquiring side (DISH comes to mine as one of them). Microsoft and/or Google may not be considered "on the list," but contacts can always be renegotiated and, as I said, they may mutually decide to withdraw if it comes to that.


Any chance that DirecTV would be interested in acquiring TiVo for their IP? Even if they later divested the manufacturing part, it might be worth having all those patents.......


----------



## Mike Greer

Makes you wonder who is running the show at Tivo. They should have cut their losses and bagged this a couple of years ago. How could they possibly cover any development costs for the 6 THR22-100 receivers that they'll be able to sell? They'll have to price them at few million apiece!

They should have been spending the time/money on a RVU compliant Tivo client that could be used with the HR34.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mike Greer said:


> Makes you wonder who is running the show at Tivo. They should have cut their losses and bagged this a couple of years ago. How could they possibly cover any development costs for the 6 THR22-100 receivers that they'll be able to sell? They'll have to price them at few million apiece!
> 
> They should have been spending the time/money on a RVU compliant Tivo client that could be used with the HR34.


If this had shipped on the original schedule, I think TiVo could have had 2, maybe even three times your number of receivers sold... 

TiVo won't consider making clients--they are all about expensive servers that come very late...

cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Mike Greer said:


> They should have been spending the time/money on a RVU compliant Tivo client that could be used with the HR34.


There is no reason for Tivo to make an RVU client. It wouldn't allow them to leverage any of their existing technology.


----------



## SledgeHammer

elaclair said:


> Any chance that DirecTV would be interested in acquiring TiVo for their IP? Even if they later divested the manufacturing part, it might be worth having all those patents.......


DirecTV doesn't need the patents. DirecTV & Tivo signed a deal many years back so DirecTV is cool no matter what happens. I believe the deal and the patents expire at roughly the same time. Could be mistaken on that though.

There wouldn't really be any point in DirecTV buying Tivo.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Mike Greer said:


> Makes you wonder who is running the show at Tivo. They should have cut their losses and bagged this a couple of years ago. How could they possibly cover any development costs for the 6 THR22-100 receivers that they'll be able to sell? They'll have to price them at few million apiece!
> 
> They should have been spending the time/money on a RVU compliant Tivo client that could be used with the HR34.


A few months ago, the THR22-100 went live on DirecTVs web site "by accident" and it was priced at $99. So they definitely aren't priced at a "few million a piece" .

Myself (and lots of others) have said there wasn't any point from day 1 of the deal. Tivo was already a dead company at that point in time.

I read recently that DirecTV shut off guide data for the UltimateTV boxes (or will do so shortly)... so if this box gets scrapped as I expect it will, they may just do the same with the Tivo boxes.

Does anybody know how many DTivo boxes are still active?


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> A few months ago, the THR22-100 went live on DirecTVs web site "by accident" and it was priced at $99. So they definitely aren't priced at a "few million a piece" .


That was an error. You can't take that price as fact. They could still be priced at a few million a piece.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> That was an error. You can't take that price as fact. They could still be priced at a few million a piece.


While the "price" to consumers probably won't be a few million, the cost to someone might be a few million a piece... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> While the "price" to consumers probably won't be a few million, the cost to someone might be a few million a piece...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Ultimately that someone is going to be us paying DirecTV subs.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:



> Ultimately that someone is going to be us paying DirecTV subs.


DirecTV has already paid Tivo. It's a sunk cost, any "paying" by DirecTV subs has already happened.


----------



## tonyd79

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV has already paid Tivo. It's a sunk cost, any "paying" by DirecTV subs has already happened.


I think it actually comes out of the pockets of the stockholders.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Ultimately that someone is going to be us paying DirecTV subs.


Or it is a cost that TiVo will eat...

Part of the DIRECTV "cost" is the "licensing fee" so that is figured into the cost of doing business, not really "extra" costs to DIRECTV customers.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I vote that jacmyoung absorb any excess costs.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> I vote that jacmyoung absorb any excess costs.


Seconded.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> I vote that jacmyoung absorb any excess costs.


I don't remember anyone saying any "excess cost", just cost Any cost of running a business will ultimately be passed on to the consumers.

Has DirecTV stopped paying TiVo development fees under this three-year-new agreement?


----------



## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> I don't remember anyone saying any "excess cost", just cost Any cost of running a business will ultimately be passed on to the consumers.
> 
> Has DirecTV stopped paying TiVo development fees under this three-year-new agreement?


Why would DIRECTV pay TiVo development fees? Back when TiVo was their go to company for equipment it made sense for them to help subsidise the cost of the equipment development for their box's only. Now there's no reason for them to do this. The TiVo box really doesn't bring anything to DIRECTV worth them paying for anything. At the most I could see an advertisement payment agreement but that would be as far as DIRECTV really needs to go. DIRECTV could care less if this box is launched or not. They have a better product and they know it. They know that only the smallest % of people really care about the brand of DVR they have and that the ROI on that group will not be worth it.


----------



## Doug Brott

Part of the agreement had DIRECTV paying TiVo money .. Not sure of the exact details on the payments. In other words, it's likely an assumption that it was for "development" fees.

Now the 3-year part. Not sure where jac got that from. The agreement was through 2015 with an option through 2018 .. Basically through the end of the Patent life. The agreement was for much longer than 3 years.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Part of the agreement had DIRECTV paying TiVo money .. Not sure of the exact details on the payments. In other words, it's likely an assumption that it was for "development" fees.
> 
> Now the 3-year part. Not sure where jac got that from. The agreement was through 2015 with an option through 2018 .. Basically through the end of the Patent life. The agreement was for much longer than 3 years.


Well "three-year-new" is not the same as "3-year", maybe I should have said "3-year-young" agreement

I was just curious if DirecTV will continue to pay TiVo such "development fees"? We know such fees were paid in the past. The reason I ask this is because Comcast was paying TiVo a similar fee under their previous agreement, then it was reported that Comcast stopped paying TiVo such fees back in 12/2010. Nearly 6 months later Comast and TiVo terminated the old agreement and signed a new one.

So if DirecTV has also stopped paying TiVo such fees, it may be a sign that some time in the near future they will terminate their current agreement too


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> So if DirecTV has also stopped paying TiVo such fees, it may be a sign that some time in the near future they will terminate their current agreement too


Who said they stopped? .. I didn't even say they started .. And besides, why on earth would TiVo agree to a contract where DIRECTV could just "terminate" willy nilly. There would have to be a real reason to terminate.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The contract (a redacted version can be found on the internet, but I'm too tired to find it again) indicates several fees as I recall. Some as payments for licenses, some as payments to TiVo for development fees (which are shared costs), and some as marketing agreements that DIRECTV will pay when the unit is done.

The license fees are still ongoing. Ya' know thems won't go away until the patent runs out.

Some development fees have been paid if I understand the TiVo conference call materials correctly. I do not know if they continue, though I expect some split costs are still paid. The details in the contract might specify TiVo might have to hit milestones before the next payments are made.

Obviously the marketing clauses haven't started--there is nothing yet to market. 

I wonder if DIRECTV can count these threads at DBStalk as part of the marketing requirement...  

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> The contract (a redacted version can be found on the internet, but I'm too tired to find it again) indicates several fees as I recall. Some as payments for licenses, some as payments to TiVo for development fees (which are shared costs), and some as marketing agreements that DIRECTV will pay when the unit is done.
> 
> The license fees are still ongoing. Ya' know thems won't go away until the patent runs out.
> 
> Some development fees have been paid if I understand the TiVo conference call materials correctly. I do not know if they continue, though I expect some split costs are still paid. The details in the contract might specify TiVo might have to hit milestones before the next payments are made.
> 
> Obviously the marketing clauses haven't started--there is nothing yet to market.
> 
> I wonder if DIRECTV can count these threads at DBStalk as part of the marketing requirement...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


When you say "license fee" I assume it is the on-going fees paid for the DirecTiVo boxes in the field? I recall this fee has increased according to TiVo. Initially it was $0.89 or so if I recall correctly. Of course the number of the boxes in the field continues to drop.

The development fees DirecTV paid so far under the new aggreement were the issue of interest. If there is a way to stop paying it, like what Comcast did, that could force a change.

Doug, I didn't say you said whatever you think I said you said, I was only curious if DirecTV had stopped paying that fee. The amount paid so far is about $6M? from some posts way back but there hasn't been any report on such payment recently.

Can DirecTV count that one-day $99 per box leak on their website as fulfilling some of the marketing obligations?


----------



## Sixto

Well over $10M. Thinking it was like $2-3M per quarter. Easy to check, was in every quarterly filing, haven't looked in a while.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Can DirecTV count that one-day $99 per box leak on their website as fulfilling some of the marketing obligations?


I'm sure that the work done on the website came out of the Marketing bucket .. but I'm not sure why it even matters. The minutia of the contract is not really relevant ...

Either things continue as they have (towards a DIRECTiVo) because that is what has been agreed to in the contract .. OR .. the project is scrubbed because of (1) a TiVo merger with a "hostile" (my word) competitor or (2) both TiVo and DIRECTV agree to scrub it.

I think those are common sense elements that would be in any contract that was agreed to by both parties. So to your earlier point about discontinuing development fees .. DIRECTV will continue to pay their obligation in the contract regardless if it is millions of dollars or zero dollars until the project is completely done (2018?) or the project is scrubbed and a new agreement is put in place.

Concentrating on whether or not DIRECTV is paying TiVo certain monies seems an awful lot like throwing a dart at a dartboard and hoping that you'll hit the right spot.

The facts I do know is that the project is not scrubbed at this point .. That a TiVo merger isn't likely to throw a cog in the wheel of the project (but it could) .. And that the "new" availability date is now 2 months farther out than I was last told. In fact, some rumblings push it well into Q1 2012.

From my observation (no source here) .. I think a TiVo merger will cause the merged company to rethink the project and they will ask DIRECTV to get out of their obligation to complete. DIRECTV will say .. "Sure, no problem, but we get to keep the non-litigation arrangement in place for the duration of the contract." TiVo then says "OK" and quietly accepts defeat and everyone moves on.

If TiVo does take it to completion, I think there will be some purchasers of the product, but at the end of the day .. a watered down DVR (yes, I said that) at a higher price will be a hard sell for any DIRECTV CSR. I almost think that both TiVo and DIRECTV could save face by scrubbing it at this point, but there may be things I don't know that keep this thing afloat.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Sixto" said:


> Well over $10M. Thinking it was like $2-3M per quarter. Easy to check, was in every quarterly filing, haven't looked in a while.


If such payments are no longer in the latest quarterly reports, they are no longer paid then?

Of course continued payment doesn't mean things are moving along as planned either.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Of course continued payment doesn't mean things are moving along as planned either.


A bit misleading comment .. "as planned" would have had the TiVo out by December '09 .. we're well past "planned."

I know for a fact that the project is still moving forward towards the planned goal. This is undisputed in my mind. You can either trust me on this or you can try to glean information from a payment schedule that we don't even know. A "zero dollar" payment (even if it were to happen) may simply be part of the schedule and not indicative of any trend. We don't know the details so making assumptions on what has or hasn't occurred is useless.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> ...A "zero dollar" payment (even if it were to happen) may simply be part of the schedule and not indicative of any trend.


If a payment pattern had been established in the past but then stopped, it could be indicative of some change. This is not an assumption, just speculation based on a fact, if such fact exists.

The fact you now agree, although reluctantly, that a potential buyout could change the course of this project, is very telling because at one point, any speculation about the impact of a potential buyout on this project, was considered off the topic, or a troll


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If a payment pattern had been established in the past but then stopped, it could be indicative of some change. This is not an assumption, just speculation based on a fact, if such fact exists.
> 
> The fact you now agree, although reluctantly, that a potential buyout could change the course of this project, is very telling because at one point, any speculation about the impact of a potential buyout on this project, was considered off the topic, or a troll


You're putting words in my mouth .. stop it. I don't believe I ever said anything about a buyout other than speculation with DISH Network .. I would have said then that the project would likely stop in that situation. If you're going to make a claim, at least find a reference.

Your assumption is that a pattern of payments is indicative of a specific schedule. I'm simply pointing out that any schedule may in fact include non-uniform payments over time .. Or, it may also mean that any regularly scheduled payments are scheduled to be done. We cannot make assumptions on a payment schedule without it being speculation. My broader point is that it doesn't matter .. It means literally nothing even if DIRECTV isn't paying TiVo anything. I know through sources that the project is not dead and is continuing forward. I don't need to speculate on that point.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> You're putting words in my mouth .. stop it. I don't believe I ever said anything about a buyout other than speculation with DISH Network .. I would have said then that the project would likely stop in that situation. If you're going to make a claim, at least find a reference.
> 
> Your assumption is that a pattern of payments is indicative of a specific schedule. I'm simply pointing out that any schedule may in fact include non-uniform payments over time .. Or, it may also mean that any regularly scheduled payments are scheduled to be done. We cannot make assumptions on a payment schedule without it being speculation. My broader point is that it doesn't matter .. It means literally nothing even if DIRECTV isn't paying TiVo anything. I know through sources that the project is not dead and is continuing forward. I don't need to speculate on that point.


Not only in your mouth but also in other people mouths. 

Good contracts always have clauses for buyouts of the parties. We all know buyouts will change things.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Good contracts always have clauses for buyouts of the parties. We all know buyouts will change things.


With that in mind, would it not be wise to delay the project until the dust settles? The point is, it is a business decision that is not likely based entirely on whether the box is technically ready to deploy or not, given the uncertainty created by no one other than TiVo itself, for either fueling the buyout rumor, or allowing such rumor to persist and advance.

I for one would not want to roll out a product, no matter how hot the product is (not saying this one is hot), knowing that soon after, the support of such product could be pulled from under it due to change of ownership.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> With that in mind, would it not be wise to delay the project until the dust settles? The point is, it is a business decision that is not likely based entirely on whether the box is technically ready to deploy or not, given the uncertainty created by no one other than TiVo itself, for either fueling the buyout rumor, or allow such rumor to persist and advance.
> 
> I for one would not want to roll out a product, no matter how hot the product is (not saying this one is hot), knowing that soon after, the support of such product could be pulled from under it due to change of ownership.


What dust?


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> What dust?


Until the buyout situation is clear.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Until the buyout situation is clear.


What buyout situation?

My point is there is no buyout announced so there is no dust to settle and thus nothing to wait for. Companies are always potential buyout situations if someone offers enough money. One can't wait forever for the what if.

Should TiVo actually enter into a buyout agreement, then the wait state might occur. Or might not. Until then, business as usual.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> If such payments are no longer in the latest quarterly reports, they are no longer paid then?
> 
> Of course continued payment doesn't mean things are moving along as planned either.


It's all on the TiVo web-site, the latest 10-Q/10-K's, for your research/analysis.

The development $ numbers are now more complicated to specify because of other work such as at Virgin. It does mention the current DirecTV "acceptance testing".


----------



## SledgeHammer

I bet Dish will buy Tivo. They can probably buy them for less money then is owed on the lawsuit .


----------



## Tom Robertson

SledgeHammer said:


> I bet Dish will buy Tivo. They can probably buy them for less money then is owed on the lawsuit .


Close but not quite. TiVo is valued at $1.3B. And likely would take $1.5 to $1.7B to actually acquire.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> I bet Dish will buy Tivo. They can probably buy them for less money then is owed on the lawsuit .


Wishful thinking .. There are roughly 120 Million shares outstanding and the articles are suggesting $20/share as the buyout is possible. You do the math.

Granted that includes $350+ million in cash that TiVo currently has.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> What buyout situation?
> 
> My point is there is no buyout announced so there is no dust to settle and thus nothing to wait for. Companies are always potential buyout situations if someone offers enough money. One can't wait forever for the what if.
> 
> Should TiVo actually enter into a buyout agreement, then the wait state might occur. Or might not. Until then, business as usual.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Or you can call it "uncertainty". Yes there is always uncertainty, but some are more apparent than others.

One of the biggest is on-going litigations, the other is buyout or change of ownership. TiVo has both going for them. When Apple's Jobs once was asked why Apple didn't put much resources into the DVR business, he said it was in part because of the uncertainty surrounding the DVR patent litigations. Of course he might be just giving excuses for the failure of AppleTV, but he would not have used that one if such factor is not a common driving force.

It would be a fool to wait till things happen before acting on it. I think DirecTV is better than that, the history shows they know how to prepare for future development rather than being reactionary.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Wishful thinking .. There are roughly 120 Million shares outstanding and the articles are suggesting $20/share as the buyout is possible. You do the math.
> 
> Granted that includes $350+ million in cash that TiVo currently has.


The $20/share was clearly a shamless pump, the fact the street still rested on $10-$11 is proof, but even at $20/share the total value is $2.4B. Dish has spent a lot more than $2.4B in the last year buying all kinds of assets.

Of course I am not saying Dish will buy TiVo. A Dish and TiVo merger is just one of several speculations.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Sixto" said:


> It's all on the TiVo web-site, the latest 10-Q/10-K's, for your research/analysis.
> 
> The development $ numbers are now more complicated to specify because of other work such as at Virgin. It does mention the current DirecTV "acceptance testing".


When you said it was easy to find on the quarterly filings, I thought the DirecTV payments were actually listed. There had always been "other work" in the past, such as the Comcast deal, and Cox deal.


----------



## Doug Brott

sounds to me like you're pulling up the rug and the sub-floor to look for dust that still isn't there.



jacmyoung said:


> Or you can call it "uncertainty". Yes there is always uncertainty, but some are more apparent than others.
> 
> One of the biggest is on-going litigations, the other is buyout or change of ownership. TiVo has both going for them. When Apple's Jobs once was asked why Apple didn't put much resources into the DVR business, he said it was in part because of the uncertainty surrounding the DVR patent litigations. Of course he might be just giving excuses for the failure of AppleTV, but he would not have used that one if such factor is not a common driving force.
> 
> It would be a fool to wait till things happen before acting on it. I think DirecTV is better than that, the history shows they know how to prepare for future development rather than being reactionary.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> The $20/share was clearly a shamless pump, the fact the street still rested on $10-$11 is proof, but even at $20/share the total value is $2.4B. Dish has spent a lot more than $2.4B in the last year buying all kinds of assets.
> 
> Of course I am not saying Dish will buy TiVo. A Dish and TiVo merger is just one of several speculations.


All of which are much higher numbers than DISH owes to TiVo .. my point still stands. Yeah, DISH may buy them, but no, it's not cheaper than just paying the fine.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> sounds to me like you're pulling up the rug and the sub-floor to look for dust that still isn't there.


The dust has been blown all over in the air already


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> All of which are much higher numbers than DISH owes to TiVo .. my point still stands. Yeah, DISH may buy them, but no, it's not cheaper than just paying the fine.


I didn't say TiVo actually will get $20/share, in fact I said it was a shamless pump, the street didn't buy it. Also I didn't use the word "merger" for no reason


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I didn't say TiVo actually will get $20/share, in fact I said it was a shamless pump, the street didn't buy it. Also I didn't use the word "merger" for no reason


Even at market value the "cost" is way above the fine .. you're not hearing my point. Yes, I exaggerated (based on reports) to make my point, but my point doesn't even change if you use the closing stock price from Friday.

Heck, look at the actual cash in TiVo's coffers. The $350 is not far away from the actual fine. What is your point? That I was wrong about someone saying that it could be $20? I didn't make that up, but yeah, I doubt it as well.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> The dust has been blown all over in the air already


Rumors .. That could be made up crap to jack the stock price.

TiVo and DIRECTV won't stop progressing on a rumor .. Oh, and did I mention I know for a fact .. from information just in the past 48 hours that the project is still moving forward at the same speed (slow). Nothing, and I repeat NOTHING, has changed because of this dust you speak of.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Even at market value the "cost" is way above the fine .. you're not hearing my point. Yes, I exaggerated (based on reports) to make my point, but my point doesn't even change if you use the closing stock price from Friday.
> 
> Heck, look at the actual cash in TiVo's coffers. The $350 is not far away from the actual fine. What is your point? That I was wrong about someone saying that it could be $20? I didn't make that up, but yeah, I doubt it as well.


Why is that every time I say something you take it as I am accusing you being wrong? I have no intention to be hostile. You didn't even say $20, someone else said it, even if I said that someone was wrong, you cannot possibly interpret it as I was saying you were wrong.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> ... Oh, and did I mention I know for a fact .. from information just in the past 48 hours that the project is still moving forward at the same speed (slow). Nothing, and I repeat NOTHING, has changed because of this dust you speak of.


Your facts, such as June/July release, among a few others, had changed.


----------



## Sixto

"jacmyoung" said:


> When you said it was easy to find on the quarterly filings, I thought the DirecTV payments were actually listed. There had always been "other work" in the past, such as the Comcast deal, and Cox deal.


They did previously specify the DirecTV payments received, rather then bundle. I had listed all the previous payments within posts during earlier quarters. Not sure if they categorize payments from Comcast and Cox in the same way.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Your facts, such as June/July release, among a few others, had changed.


Those were not facts, those were guesses. Doug is pretty clear on facts, opinions, and guesses.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Your facts, such as June/July release, among a few others, had changed.


I'm not giving any more dates .. it's too much of a moving target .. You're free to believe me or not, but 48 hours ago the project was full steam ahead ..

Bear in mind that this still means the glacially slow speed at which it was moving. In other words nothing has changed as of today based on that rumor. I know that for a fact, yes.

But the world is not static .. Tomorrow is another day and remember, I actually did say that if there was a merger (and I mean of any sort) that I think the entire project is likely scrubbed.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> Those were not facts, those were guesses. Doug is pretty clear on facts, opinions, and guesses.


I'm sure I said subject to change or some sort .. I was never 100% sure. I'm not the guy making the decisions or sitting in the meetings.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> I'm sure I said subject to change or some sort .. I was never 100% sure. I'm not the guy making the decisions or sitting in the meetings.


You ain't? You aren't the one at TiVo assigning the development person for this project? (Cuz as slow as it's going, it sure can't be a development team...)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> They did previously specify the DirecTV payments received,...


If they did so before but stopped doing so now, that could indicate a change in development fee payment arrangement.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> If they did so before but stopped doing so now, that could indicate a change in development fee payment arrangement.


Where is this headed? It might indicate a change or it might not. It might indicate the change is there are more development partners' dollars than just DIRECTV. It might not.

It might mean there are no more payments due to TiVo at this stage until the next milestone is reached. It might not.

It might mean there are no payments scheduled while the sky is blue, but it might not. 

So what point is being attempted?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> So what point is being attempted?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I don't know, maybe people want to know what is happening about this project, not just when it will be available? If there is indication that the development fee payment arrangement has changed, that is some information isn't it?

What is the point of having the same thread going up every quarter for the last three years discussing something that is not available and all one can say is, nothing has changed?


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> If they did so before but stopped doing so now, that could indicate a change in development fee payment arrangement.


From March 2010 Annual Filing: During the twelve months ended January 31, 2010, the Company recognized $9.0 million in technology revenues and $9.0 million in cost of technology revenues related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR. ​From March 2011 Annual Filing: During the twelve months ended January 31, 2011 and 2010, the Company recognized $6.5 million and $8.9 million in technology revenues and $6.5 million and $8.9 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR.​
From June 2011 Quarterly Filing: Also, the amounts paid by DIRECTV and attributable to development efforts are lower in fiscal year 2011 compared to the same prior year period.

This product is currently in the acceptance testing phase with DIRECTV.​
All info from TiVo Investor Relations documents.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know, maybe people want to know what is happening about this project, not just when it will be available? If there is indication that the development fee payment arrangement has changed, that is some information isn't it?
> 
> What is the point of having the same thread going up every quarter for the last three years discussing something that is not available and all one can say is, nothing has changed?


So an agenda is being pushed? That TiVo is not developing the thing? Or that DIRECTV is not continuing the project?

Sure, questions like that sometimes need to be asked. Yet when the questions start to fly in the face of facts or come from outta nowhere (or both!), readers tend to suspect an agenda, not an honest question.

Add in the fact that people, who are known to talk to DIRECTV, are saying the project is continuing and that said information is VERY recent, then the agenda appears to be even much more.

So what is the agenda? What is the goal? Why surmise things that don't exist?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"Sixto" said:


> From March 2010 Annual Filing: During the twelve months ended January 31, 2010, the Company recognized $9.0 million in technology revenues and $9.0 million in cost of technology revenues related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR.
> 
> From March 2011 Annual Filing: During the twelve months ended January 31, 2011 and 2010, the Company recognized $6.5 million and $8.9 million in technology revenues and $6.5 million and $8.9 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR.
> 
> From June 2011 Quarterly Filing: Also, the amounts paid by DIRECTV and attributable to development efforts are lower in fiscal year 2011 compared to the same prior year period.
> 
> This product is currently in the acceptance testing phase with DIRECTV.
> 
> All info from TiVo Investor Relations documents.


If I understand it correctly, $17.9 million in 2009, $13.0 million in 2010 and the number for 2011 is unknown but will be less than in 2010.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> If I understand it correctly, $17.9 million in 2009, $13.0 million in 2010 and the number for 2011 is unknown but will be less than in 2010.


Hmmm. No.

$8.9M first full year. $6.5M second full year. Less, 3rd year so far.


----------



## Tom Robertson

And during the development cycle the costs will vary. If they are close to finalizing it they can reduce the team to the size necessary to troubleshoot and test. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

Tom Robertson said:


> If this had shipped on the original schedule, I think TiVo could have had 2, maybe even three times your number of receivers sold...
> 
> TiVo won't consider making clients--they are all about expensive servers that come very late...
> 
> cheers,
> Tom





Jeremy W said:


> There is no reason for Tivo to make an RVU client. It wouldn't allow them to leverage any of their existing technology.


Tivo just announced they are now making client only boxes to go with some of their servers.. SO they are actually jumping into that market. And I believe it was all via moca too, if I am not mistaken...


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> When you say "license fee" I assume it is the on-going fees paid for the DirecTiVo boxes in the field? I recall this fee has increased according to TiVo. Initially it was $0.89 or so if I recall correctly. Of course the number of the boxes in the field continues to drop.
> 
> The development fees DirecTV paid so far under the new aggreement were the issue of interest. If there is a way to stop paying it, like what Comcast did, that could force a change.
> 
> Doug, I didn't say you said whatever you think I said you said, I was only curious if DirecTV had stopped paying that fee. The amount paid so far is about $6M? from some posts way back but there hasn't been any report on such payment recently.
> 
> Can DirecTV count that one-day $99 per box leak on their website as fulfilling some of the marketing obligations?


I never saw anything saying that the fee for current boxes had changed in the last agreement. It said that the new Tivo would have a different fee structure, and that the current tivos that are still out today where going to continue to have support and gain a couple new features, which they did.

There is no reason for the fee for the current units to have ever change, much less go up...


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> The $20/share was clearly a shamless pump, the fact the street still rested on $10-$11 is proof, but even at $20/share the total value is $2.4B. Dish has spent a lot more than $2.4B in the last year buying all kinds of assets.
> 
> Of course I am not saying Dish will buy TiVo. A Dish and TiVo merger is just one of several speculations.


Dish would be stupid to buy Tivo. Echostar, makes far more sense...

It is also possible that if whoever buys tivo sees an opportunity to really make some money, they may love the new comcast deal, and may shoot to up the ante in the directv deal by signing a new agreement that would allow them to release the current one and build another new one based on the hr34 platform, which is similar to the direction they are going with their units and want to go with other providers. Such an agreement could also help directv show they are meeting all vid by having a system that can be operated by more than just one gui system, with the same clients....

All of that depends on how deep the pockets are for tivo. Tivo is only dead today because they are being run by idiots. If they get bought by someone with a brain and lots of money to spend on development (knowing innovation is the only thing that can make tivo successful), they have a chance to make a huge comeback. The market is still far to ugly at this point to discount any players.

I think its funny the only outcome people ever talk about is the demise of tivo, and while I hate their GUI and their current design philosophy, I see no reason that a new owner couldn't easily change all that.


----------



## Tom Robertson

inkahauts said:


> Tivo just announced they are now making client only boxes to go with some of their servers.. SO they are actually jumping into that market. And I believe it was all via moca too, if I am not mistaken...


Well, well, well. 

I should have qualified my remarks a bit more closely, and I'll accept my boo-boo. 

This is a step toward potentially making generic RVU clients--maybe they will someday.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

inkahauts said:


> Dish would be stupid to buy Tivo. Echostar, makes far more sense...
> 
> It is also possible that if whoever buys tivo sees an opportunity to really make some money, they may love the new comcast deal, and may shoot to up the ante in the directv deal by signing a new agreement that would allow them to release the current one and build another new one based on the hr34 platform, which is similar to the direction they are going with their units and want to go with other providers. Such an agreement could also help directv show they are meeting all vid by having a system that can be operated by more than just one gui system, with the same clients....
> 
> All of that depends on how deep the pockets are for tivo. Tivo is only dead today because they are being run by idiots. If they get bought by someone with a brain and lots of money to spend on development (knowing innovation is the only thing that can make tivo successful), they have a chance to make a huge comeback. The market is still far to ugly at this point to discount any players.
> 
> I think its funny the only outcome people ever talk about is the demise of tivo, and while I hate their GUI and their current design philosophy, I see no reason that a new owner couldn't easily change all that.


I especially agree with your last statement(s). I do think there still is hope for TiVo. I don't know enough about their present situation to know how hard, but it could be done.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"inkahauts" said:


> Tivo just announced they are now making client only boxes to go with some of their servers.. SO they are actually jumping into that market. And I believe it was all via moca too, if I am not mistaken...


While I am not as optimistic (relatively speaking since you are not that optimistic either) as you, about the future of TiVo, I don't blame the current TiVo situation on its management as much. Do you really think if they come up with some nice boxes things will be very different?

Everyone knows how to make nice boxes, the difference is everyone else has content, TiVo does not. TiVo has to rely heavily on patent litigations.

But I also believe the relation with DirecTV can survive or advance, just that they will likely need new agreement to put forth a viable product, this current box is not, regardless what they say whether it is moving along as planned or not. In today's competitive environment, under normal circumstances, a product like this one would have long been abandoned.


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> Tivo just announced they are now making client only boxes to go with some of their servers.. SO they are actually jumping into that market. And I believe it was all via moca too, if I am not mistaken...


They're making clients that work *only* with their boxes. I don't know the details, but I'm sure they're not using RVU or anything close to it. I already knew about Tivo's thin client device when I made that post, and it certainly wasn't what I was referring to.


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:


> They're making clients that work *only* with their boxes. I don't know the details, but I'm sure they're not using RVU or anything close to it. I already knew about Tivo's thin client device when I made that post, and it certainly wasn't what I was referring to.


I think the point is, TiVo does make advanced DVRs, in fact more so than many others. The new Premiere can stream content, also record content off the Internet, a new 4-tuner DVR will be available. To say TiVo is technically inept is inaccurate.

But TiVo does not have content rights itself, they must rely on other companies adopting their DVR platform. The only way to do so seems to be through litigation.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> To say TiVo is technically inept is inaccurate.


I don't see how your examples support that. Tivo has implemented the features you mentioned because they have to. Their box has to do more than a standard DVR, or there's no point in using it. However, the performance of their new GUI and the utter futility of their Comcast and DirecTV development projects paints a very inept picture. Not just technical, but also managerial. Perhaps even more managerial than technical, but I don't think that Tivo's staff, as a whole, is valuable in any way.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> The only way to do so seems to be through litigation.


Virgin says "That's not true."


----------



## Doug Brott

Doug Brott said:


> Virgin says "That's not true."


Oh, and DIRECTV says "no" as well.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Oh, and DIRECTV says "no" as well.


You mean to struck deals to avoid litigation? That is part of what my "through litigation" means.


----------



## Doug Brott

That's a mighty broad stroke. By that definition one could infer that us customers agree to pay our bill each month to "avoid litigation."


----------



## SledgeHammer

With the amount of money DISH spent fighting (and losing) the Tivo lawsuit, they not only could have just signed a deal with them like DirecTV did, they could have outright bought the company.

Is Tivo mgmt inept? Hell yeah. They let a 90%+ market share slip away to almost nothing practically overnight. There was never anything fundamentally wrong with Tivo DVRs, they just failed to sign long term deals when they had the chance. During that window of opportunity, Motorola came along and discovered that they could produce cheaper, crappier boxes faster then Tivo could and the service providers were all over it. Customers were also happy that they didn't have to pay an additional $5 / month to Tivo after they were already paying an arm and a leg to the service provider.

At this point, I'm pretty confident that this project will get scrapped. There is no need for it and the additional head aches and costs to DTV are not worth it.

I mean, seriously, if they wanted to get this thing out, it would have already been out. It doesn't take a year or two to fix a few bugs here and there.

As a software engineer myself, I can tell you that when mgmt wants to get something out, it gets out. Even if that means bringing in lunch and dinner and having you work 9am to 9pm 7 days a week for a month.


----------



## JBernardK

SledgeHammer said:


> It doesn't take a year or two to fix a few bugs here and there.


You must not have been around when the HR20 was released.


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> While I am not as optimistic (relatively speaking since you are not that optimistic either) as you, about the future of TiVo, I don't blame the current TiVo situation on its management as much. Do you really think if they come up with some nice boxes things will be very different?
> 
> Everyone knows how to make nice boxes, the difference is everyone else has content, TiVo does not. TiVo has to rely heavily on patent litigations.
> 
> But I also believe the relation with DirecTV can survive or advance, just that they will likely need new agreement to put forth a viable product, this current box is not, regardless what they say whether it is moving along as planned or not. In today's competitive environment, under normal circumstances, a product like this one would have long been abandoned.


This is completely managements fault. I wouldn't blame a single software guy in the company. If tivo had spent properly, asked for smaller fees, and used its resources for software rather than for hardware, they likely could have been in every single dvr that Comcast has, not to mention many other providers. And they would have released the Directv version two years ago. Its all on the managements part, period. In the beginign they spent all their money on advertising to get rid of the competition, (replaytv) and they never did loose that mentality that they should be the only real player, and that hardware was one of the keys to their long term success. Hardware is the least important thing to their success... Thats all direction from management.

At this point, if i took over, I'd make sure that any in development project was finished and launched as fast as possible, starting with directv. 2 reasons. One, to show all the providers that slow and late deployments where no longer acceptable. Right now I have to believe that the confidence level on the part of providers is at a all time low for tivo, and thats the first thing that needs to be changed to get any new deals done, because right now, if no one believes tivo can get anything done, why would they bother. As for the DIrectv deal, loosing their presence completely at this point would be worse than scrapping it, and they could then use the new device as the building block for a new HR34 based system.

IMO, I would love to know how many people are actually working on the development of their different projects at any given time.


----------



## inkahauts

Jeremy W said:


> I don't see how your examples support that. Tivo has implemented the features you mentioned because they have to. Their box has to do more than a standard DVR, or there's no point in using it. However, the performance of their new GUI and the utter futility of their Comcast and DirecTV development projects paints a very inept picture. Not just technical, but also managerial. Perhaps even more managerial than technical, but I don't think that Tivo's staff, as a whole, is valuable in any way.


Its all managerial, period. And if its in the software design, then its the software development manager's fault. I see no way to blame anyone on the front line because of all the other problems management has obviously made.


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> Its all managerial, period. And if its in the software design, then its the software development manager's fault. I see no way to blame anyone on the front line because of all the other problems management has obviously made.


As a software guy with a degree in management, I can't put all the blame on management. There has to be certain amount of blame on the people writing the code that hasn't been able to be shipped in three years.


----------



## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:
 

> As a software engineer myself, I can tell you that when mgmt wants to get something out, it gets out. Even if that means bringing in lunch and dinner and having you work 9am to 9pm 7 days a week for a month.


Based on several posts here and elsewhere, TiVo clearly thought it was ready, but DirecTV continued to ask TiVo to go back to test


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> As a software guy with a degree in management, I can't put all the blame on management. There has to be certain amount of blame on the people writing the code that hasn't been able to be shipped in three years.


I might modify your statements slightly. It is entirely management's fault. Very likely the fault can be parsed out to several sections of management including the C-level (lots and lots there) and the software management level. If there were any single programmers who have any blame, that does not absolve the software management from noticing and resolving the problems.

On top of that, a 3 year delay is not the fault of one or two programmers. Possibly one or two architects, again a management level position.

As inkahauts clearly decribes, management had everything a company could ever want: incredible name recognition, solid patents, huge fan set, and 90% market share. You can't get any better than that. And management can piss it all away in a few short years.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Based on several posts here and elsewhere, TiVo clearly thought it was ready, but DirecTV continued to ask TiVo to go back to test


And what conclusions are to be drawn from that?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## samo

Tom Robertson said:


> And what conclusions are to be drawn from that?


DirecTv does not want a fiasco like Comcast box? Or perhaps they do not want to release a half baked box like Premiere? Or they want to see at least something that they can market as a premium compare to their latest offerings?


----------



## Doug Brott

Samo, I think you've got it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

samo said:


> DirecTv does not want a fiasco like Comcast box? Or perhaps they do not want to release a half baked box like Premiere? Or they want to see at least something that they can market as a premium compare to their latest offerings?


That's like the top issue at hand as far as the new Tivobox.

Measure twice, cut once.


----------



## Mike Greer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's like the top issue at hand as far as the new Tivobox.
> 
> Measure twice, cut once.


Given the current 'issues' many people are having with their HR2X receivers maybe DirecTV should use the same approach to their own hardware!:lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

Mike Greer said:


> Given the current 'issues' many people are having with their HR2X receivers maybe DirecTV should use the same approach to their own hardware!:lol:


If so we might have to dust off all the old ReplayTV boxes

It is fair to say DirecTV doesn't mind the delay as long as there is any tech issue left to pick on TiVo, within the legal confine of the agreement.


----------



## CuriousMark

jacmyoung said:


> That spin was here for months now, someone reading here took it there.


Yes I did. Also, that is a stock board, a place where hyperbole rules the day.



> The problem is that the feature set was determined long ago and now almost obsolete compared to the newer receivers. They might need a new agreement or an amendment to add any new features.


Which I would have expected them to do over two years ago. Why would they not have ammended the agreement and explained that delay was caused to add the new features? One or both of them is perhaps not interested in doing that?


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Which I would have expected them to do over two years ago. Why would they not have ammended the agreement and explained that delay was caused to add the new features? One or both of them is perhaps not interested in doing that?


I don't think the delay is due to adding new features .. I think Samo is on to something, though.


----------



## CuriousMark

Tom Robertson said:


> This is a step toward potentially making generic RVU clients--maybe they will someday.


Given that TiVo does not even do DLNA, I don't see RVU as being high on their list of things to support. TiVo's propretary HMO and HME protocols have done what DLNA and RVU do, and the TiVo versions have been in customers hands for years now. To use RVU, TiVo would have to go and design an implementation for these from scratch on their hardware and it would only duplicate features that are already there, solely to work in a DirecTV ecosystem. The only way I see that happening is if DirecTV commissions it. Somehow, I don't think DirecTV would want to do that, based on the present contract.


----------



## Tom Robertson

samo said:


> DirecTv does not want a fiasco like Comcast box? Or perhaps they do not want to release a half baked box like Premiere? Or they want to see at least something that they can market as a premium compare to their latest offerings?


I was giving the rest of the class a chance to offer an answer, yet I see that most students have already recognized the best answer. 

Good job, samo! :sunsmile:

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

CuriousMark said:


> Given that TiVo does not even do DLNA, I don't see RVU as being high on their list of things to support. TiVo's propretary HMO and HME protocols have done what DLNA and RVU do, and the TiVo versions have been in customers hands for years now. To use RVU, TiVo would have to go and design an implementation for these from scratch on their hardware and it would only duplicate features that are already there, solely to work in a DirecTV ecosystem. The only way I see that happening is if DirecTV commissions it. Somehow, I don't think DirecTV would want to do that, based on the present contract.


You've done a great job describing my thoughts before someone pointed out the new clients TiVo is making now. So I am adjusting my expectations from "TiVo won't do that" to "TiVo just might someday." 

And your details about what TiVo does inside keeps me closer to the "TiVo won't do that" position I had all along.

TiVo is an interesting case study--every day that is. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## CuriousMark

Tom Robertson said:


> You've done a great job describing my thoughts before someone pointed out the new clients TiVo is making now. So I am adjusting my expectations from "TiVo won't do that" to "TiVo just might someday."
> 
> And your details about what TiVo does inside keeps me closer to the "TiVo won't do that" position I had all along.
> 
> TiVo is an interesting case study--every day that is.


Isn't RVU proprietary to DirecTV? Not a wide standard like DLNA? Because if it were a widely adopted standard, I could see TiVo eventually supporting it if enough different customers (read cable and sat companies) ask for it as part of their contracts with TiVo.


----------



## Tom Robertson

CuriousMark said:


> Isn't RVU proprietary to DirecTV? Not a wide standard like DLNA? Because if it were a widely adopted standard, I could see TiVo eventually supporting it if enough different customers (read cable and sat companies) ask for it as part of their contracts with TiVo.


It is not proprietary to DIRECTV and it is meant to be widely adopted. It is so new it has not been widely adopted yet, though there are some good names in the membership of the alliance. And the alliance is doing their part to become widely adopted by publishing specs, creating a compliance testing center that is not tightly tied to any one company, etc.

So we'll see if RVU makes it or if something else will be the specification for the future.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"CuriousMark" said:


> Yes I did. Also, that is a stock board, a place where hyperbole rules the day.
> 
> Which I would have expected them to do over two years ago. Why would they not have ammended the agreement and explained that delay was caused to add the new features? One or both of them is perhaps not interested in doing that?


They can always do it now or in the near future. If they are working to add new features, we are likely to hear it first in the form of a new agreement.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Isn't RVU proprietary to DirecTV? Not a wide standard like DLNA?


RVU actually incorporates DLNA.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> They can always do it now or in the near future. If they are working to add new features, we are likely to hear it first in the form of a new agreement.


We're almost never going to hear about new features via a new written contract. Only things that represent a complete change of direction, such as having TiVo based receivers on DIRECTV.

Heck, we don't even know the current features that are expected from _this_ contract. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> We're almost never going to hear about new features via a new written contract. Only things that represent a complete change of direction, such as having TiVo based receivers on DIRECTV.
> 
> Heck, we don't even know the current features that are expected from this contract.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Or such as a new DirecTiVo based on the latest DirecTV DVR platform, not the old outdated one.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Or such as a new DirecTiVo based on the latest DirecTV DVR platform, not the old outdated one.


So then we can wait three more years and still have nothing available?


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Or such as a new DirecTiVo based on the latest DirecTV DVR platform, not the old outdated one.


Recall that the HR22 _was_ the latest model at the time the contract was signed. And well into the development cycle.

Oh and the contract did not publicly state what unit it was going to be based on. We learned that here at DBStalk. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If they are working to add new features, we are likely to hear it first in the form of a new agreement.


I'm already hearing what some of the "second round" features might be and the thing isn't even released yet.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> RVU actually incorporates DLNA.


Yes I am aware of that. It is similar to the way TiVo's HME builds on top of their HMO protocols.

I have tried using the DLNA servers on my TV and H24 for content from Windows 7 and it has been very user unfriendly. I gave up on them and just use an old series 2 TiVo for those features. It isn't hidef, but it is easy to use, fast, and doesn't have bunches of unpopulated menu items that lead nowhere like DLNA does.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Recall that the HR22 was the latest model at the time the contract was signed. And well into the development cycle.


Which was what I was trying to say, the agreement was signed so long ago, might as well get a new one, if, only if the parties actually want to develop something that can succeed in the market.



> Oh and the contract did not publicly state what unit it was going to be based on. We learned that here at DBStalk.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I am sure we will continue to learn things here.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Which was what I was trying to say, the agreement was signed so long ago, might as well get a new one, if, only if the parties actually want to develop something that can succeed in the market


Why? What is it with a new agreement? There is one in place that goes through 2015 with an option to go to 2018. I can't see anything that would bring DIRECTV back to the table to renegotiate. From what I can see they win regardless of what happens at this point. No need for more lawyering just to lawyer if you know what I mean.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> I am sure we will continue to learn things here.


Yeah, like the official cancellation of this ridiculous project.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> Why? What is it with a new agreement? There is one in place that goes through 2015 with an option to go to 2018. I can't see anything that would bring DIRECTV back to the table to renegotiate. From what I can see they win regardless of what happens at this point. No need for more lawyering just to lawyer if you know what I mean.


I think, but am not sure, jacmyoung was referring to a newer model unit than the HR22.

Since I also think, but am not sure, HR22s are still in production, nothing wrong with using them.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> Since I also think, but am not sure, HR22s are still in production, nothing wrong with using them.


Why would they still be in production when they're obsolete by two generations?


----------



## tonyd79

Doug Brott said:


> Why? What is it with a new agreement? There is one in place that goes through 2015 with an option to go to 2018. I can't see anything that would bring DIRECTV back to the table to renegotiate. From what I can see they win regardless of what happens at this point. No need for more lawyering just to lawyer if you know what I mean.


Nor would they need a whole new agreement to change the base hardware, especially as the HR22 and the HR24 are the same lineage.

Changes like that happen all the time and the agreement probably has some verbage in it about changing some requirements.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> Why would they still be in production when they're obsolete by two generations?


Cuz there was only one manufacturer on the 23, I really don't count that one.

And the 24 might not be taking all of the manufacturing capacity from the 22 yet.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## newsposter

i want my tivo


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Cuz there was only one manufacturer on the 23, I really don't count that one.
> 
> And the 24 might not be taking all of the manufacturing capacity from the 22 yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


But is it cost effective to continue to devote some of the manufacturing capacity for something that should have ended, under normal circumstances?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> But is it cost effective to continue to devote some of the manufacturing capacity for something that should have ended, under normal circumstances?


If they're still doing it .. then the answer is likely "yes." .. If they're not, then the answer is likely "no."


----------



## kevinwmsn

I would hope they would be ramping up production on the hr24... being its faster than any of the other hr series. Then if Tivo gets their software in order you would think they would want on the hr24 and maybe the hr34?? being its a faster box and they want to market it as premium device. To me, a premium box would need to be fast.


----------



## RobertE

HR22 production ceased long ago.

I think they are refurbing and rebranding the old ones into Tivos.


----------



## jacmyoung

"RobertE" said:


> HR22 production ceased long ago.
> 
> I think they are refurbing and rebranding the old ones into Tivos.


I don't think it is possible, last time I tried to chisel out the DirecTV logo from a very old and out of commission receiver, I swear the hole left in it would not have fitted the "TiVo Man" in it


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I don't think it is possible, last time I tried to chisel out the DirecTV logo from a very old and out of commission receiver, I swear the hole left in it would not have fitted the "TiVo Man" in it


different bezel :grin:


----------



## RobertE

jacmyoung said:


> I don't think it is possible, last time I tried to chisel out the DirecTV logo from a very old and out of commission receiver, I swear the hole left in it would not have fitted the "TiVo Man" in it





Doug Brott said:


> different bezel :grin:


Just going to be a little sticker.


----------



## jacmyoung

RobertE said:


> Just going to be a little sticker.


You should have suggest this to Charlie, put new stickers on his old DVRs, could have saved him $500 million he had to pay TiVo


----------



## mkdtv21

kevinwmsn said:


> I would hope they would be ramping up production on the hr24... being its faster than any of the other hr series. Then if Tivo gets their software in order you would think they would want on the hr24 and maybe the hr34?? being its a faster box and they want to market it as premium device. To me, a premium box would need to be fast.


This is what I've been trying to say and hope will happen.


----------



## inkahauts

"Jeremy W" said:


> As a software guy with a degree in management, I can't put all the blame on management. There has to be certain amount of blame on the people writing the code that hasn't been able to be shipped in three years.


I understand your point, but I will still disagree...

I could go with that if they had missed it by a few months or even a year.... But now going on three... No way. They could have fired everyone three times hired all new staff and gotten this thing out by now if they had competent management and the real heart of the issue was the software guys on the front lines. Nope, its to late to say the guys didn't get the software right. Too many managers made to many mistakes at this point I can't blame the software guys. Maybe the managers of the software design, but not the writers... At some point, this kind of failure is all management's, even if better writers might have gotten it done sooner... Three years is beyond beyond writers. Other things had to be going on...


----------



## Connection Guy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Keeping it simple....I anticipate the new Tivo unit will finally appear in 3Q 2011.


Currect


----------



## WSUPolar

Connection Guy said:


> Currect


*"ShakeyCam"*.... the preferred camera of NDA breakers everyhere!


----------



## Jeremy W

WSUPolar said:


> *"ShakeyCam"*.... the preferred camera of NDA breakers everyhere!


It's been so long since I've seen it, but I _believe_ that is the exact same picture that was posted here many months ago.


----------



## WSUPolar

Jeremy W said:


> It's been so long since I've seen it, but I _believe_ that is the exact same picture that was posted here many months ago.


Ah, well as you can tell... I don't drop in too often. Just to check on the Tivo "status" occasionally.

And here I got my hopes up somewhat.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm going to call that picture a "possible." It could just be a sticker, but it does at least appear to be a -100 receiver based on the light ring.


----------



## sigma1914

Jeremy W said:


> It's been so long since I've seen it, but I _believe_ that is the exact same picture that was posted here many months ago.


The old picture was on a brown entertainment shelf, I thought. I'm 99.% sure this one is different.


----------



## cthomp21

If you look closely at the sticker below the access card slot, you can clearly see:

MODEL THR22-100


----------



## sigma1914

cthomp21 said:


> If you look closely at the sticker below the access card slot, you can clearly see:
> 
> MODEL THR22-100


Clearly? :lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I wouldn't say "clearly" but that would be consistent with the way DIRECTV labels their receivers. 

But you have to ask yourself, who cares what the outside looks like if it can't match the HR series on features?


----------



## cthomp21

sigma1914 said:


> Clearly? :lol:


Right Click > Save Picture As > Open Pic > Zoom In. Pretty effortless to see the model number.


----------



## cthomp21

Stuart Sweet said:


> I wouldn't say "clearly" but that would be consistent with the way DIRECTV labels their receivers.
> 
> But you have to ask yourself, who cares what the outside looks like if it can't match the HR series on features?


Three things kill the HDTivo for me, although I prefer the interface.

(1) Lack of MRV

(2) Additional monthly cost

(3) Additional up front lease upgrade fee

I am looking forward to seeing what actually ships (if anything at all). An HD Tivo might be just the ticket for my wife's parents who are still using SD Tivo's and are hard-pressed to learn a new system.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

cthomp21 said:


> Three things kill the HDTivo for me, although I prefer the interface.
> 
> (1) Lack of MRV
> 
> (2) Additional monthly cost
> 
> (3) Additional up front lease upgrade fee
> 
> I am looking forward to seeing what actually ships (if anything at all). An HD Tivo might be just the ticket for my wife's parents who are still using SD Tivo's and are hard-pressed to learn a new system.


I'm with you on that. With those fees and restrictions, outside of a few diehards it seems like it would be a difficult sell.

I can see the complaints now. New customers who opt for TiVo and then figure out they have to replace it to get the features they see on DIRECTV's commercials. I'm sure there will be couple of threads started on that topic.

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

Mike Bertelson said:


> I'm with you on that. With those fees and restrictions, outside of a few diehards it seems like it would be a difficult sell.


I doubt DIRECTV is looking forward to the marketing campaign.


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> I doubt DIRECTV is looking forward to the marketing campaign.


IMO, it will be a mass of confusion. I don't even know why they are fooling with it at this point.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Common sense would tell you TiVo Inc. should just throw in the towel. But hey, there are still people out there clinging to HDVR2s because they care more about the menus than the programming. DIRECTV's marketing campaign should focus on those people. For example... "Have you been waiting for a new TiVo? Well here it is. I hope you're happy."


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> I doubt DIRECTV is looking forward to the marketing campaign.


I don't know about that, the DirecTV marketing was so eager they posted the ordering price, ready to roll, only to have it pulled I think it is the DirecTV tech department that is not looking forward to the release, or the legal, or the accounting...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> I doubt DIRECTV is looking forward to the marketing campaign.


I hadn't even thought of that. How do you market the TiVo and then have that commercial for pausing in one room and moving to another room. People will expect to be able to do that...unless there are some disclaimers.

Maybe it'll be a special order item only and not directly marketed.

That ad campaign is going to be interesting.

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know about that, the DirecTV marketing was so eager they posted the ordering price, ready to roll, only to have it pulled I think it is the DirecTV tech department that is not looking forward to the release, or the legal, or the accounting...


Once again Mr. Young, you're assuming intent where you cannot prove there was any. It is equally likely that a prototype web page was put up by accident.

I can tell you that based on reliable sources, that the THR22 is not ready to roll.

My friends Mr. Bertelson and Mr. Brott presume there will be a marketing campaign, and I personally believe it will be more word-of-mouth and word-of-blog.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> Once again Mr. Young, you're assuming intent where you cannot prove there was any. It is equally likely that a prototype web page was put up by accident.
> 
> I can tell you that based on reliable sources, that the THR22 is not ready to roll.
> 
> My friends Mr. Bertelson and Mr. Brott presume there will be a marketing campaign, and *I personally believe it will be more word-of-mouth and word-of-blog*.


I can see that. Kinda like it'll be available, listed on the website, and if you want one you'll have to specifically order it. I can see that happening.

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know about that, the DirecTV marketing was so eager they posted the ordering price, ready to roll, only to have it pulled I think it is the DirecTV tech department that is not looking forward to the release, or the legal, or the accounting...


You're just a bundle of joy, aren't you?


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> It is equally likely that a prototype web page was put up by accident.


It's more than equally likely .. I heard from multiple sources that it was a mistake that it was posted. Not sure why it was even brought up again.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know about that, the DirecTV marketing was so eager they posted the ordering price, ready to roll, only to have it pulled I think it is the DirecTV tech department that is not looking forward to the release, or the legal, or the accounting...


"So eager?" How about another thought. Marketing got their part done. TiVo should have had their part done too.

One team does not wait for the other team to finish before they start, although with TiVo's history, I might consider waiting... 


Stuart Sweet said:


> Once again Mr. Young, you're assuming intent where you cannot prove there was any. It is equally likely that a prototype web page was put up by accident.
> 
> I can tell you that based on reliable sources, that the THR22 is not ready to roll.
> 
> My friends Mr. Bertelson and Mr. Brott presume there will be a marketing campaign, and I personally believe it will be more word-of-mouth and word-of-blog.


But Stuart, word of mouth _is_ a marketing strategy. 

Along those lines, I expect there will be the contractually obligated marketing campaign. And nothing more.  And likely fairly minimal since there are so many missing features, the unit just underwhelms--even a low expectation.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## fikuserectus

WOW! This is what everyone waited for?!?! Glad I gave up on this years ago. I love my Directv DVR. 

It is just a matter of time before Tivo gets bought out or auctioned off for patents. They keep moving down. This device isn't going to win them any customers. Unbelievable!


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> ...One team does not wait for the other team to finish before they start,...


You just described the state of being "so eager"



> But Stuart, word of mouth _is_ a marketing strategy.
> 
> Along those lines, I expect there will be the contractually obligated marketing campaign. And nothing more.  And likely fairly minimal since there are so many missing features, the unit just underwhelms--even a low expectation.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


It is highly doubtful "word of mouth" will meet the minimum marketing obligation specified in the agreement, if there is any specified. I can see them broadcasting TV banner ads specifically designed for the old DirecTiVo users, asking them to upgrade.

When they call and are told there will be an added monthly fee, they will pause, if that happens, the CSR will follow the script and mention that there is another advanced HDDVR without such fee, but with more features...


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> You just described the state of being "so eager"


Bzzzzzztttt ... Insert Quarter, Play Again.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Bzzzzzztttt ... Insert Quarter, Play Again.


What do you think about this one:

http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/07/13/more-delays-for-the-new-directivo/

"DirecTV controls the schedule, they control the product specifications, they decide on the features, they control the budget, etc."

How much of the above is true?


----------



## Hoosier205

"jacmyoung" said:


> What do you think about this one:
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/07/13/more-delays-for-the-new-directivo/
> 
> "DirecTV controls the schedule, they control the product specifications, they decide on the features, they control the budget, etc."
> 
> How much of the above is true?


TiVo dropped the ball as usual. They are producing it and failing to do so


----------



## inkahauts

"jacmyoung" said:


> I don't know about that, the DirecTV marketing was so eager they posted the ordering price, ready to roll, only to have it pulled I think it is the DirecTV tech department that is not looking forward to the release, or the legal, or the accounting...


!rolling


----------



## inkahauts

I fully expect a direct marketing approach. All current DirecTV TiVo users and probably past ones as well will get fliers in the mail about the new ones when they hit. That makes the most sense here. And then based on that response, we will see what else they might do.

I also wouldn't be surprised if we see pos info in stores next to tivos as well as next to DirecTV. But I don't expect tv or radio ads for it. More grass roots because it's far cheaper.


----------



## I WANT MORE

fikuserectus said:


> WOW! This is what everyone waited for?!?! Glad I gave up on this years ago. I love my Directv DVR.
> 
> It is just a matter of time before Tivo gets bought out or auctioned off for patents. They keep moving down. This device isn't going to win them any customers. Unbelievable!


Thanks for the informative post. After reading it I am no longer interested in the DirecTivo and will disconnect and destroy the cable ones that I have. 
Thanks Again.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> What do you think about this one:
> 
> http://www.gizmolovers.com/2011/07/13/more-delays-for-the-new-directivo/
> 
> "DirecTV controls the schedule, they control the product specifications, they decide on the features, they control the budget, etc."
> 
> How much of the above is true?


From the linked article:


> Now, I want to make an important point here - I don't think this is TiVo's fault. A lot of people have complained at/to TiVo about the delays, but they're not in control. Remember this is a DirecTV product, not a TiVo product! TiVo is a supplier and contractor to DirecTV for this. Unlike the original DirecTiVo boxes, the new unit is not based on a TiVo-designed reference platform. It was previously announced that the hardware will be supplied by Technicolor (formerly known as Thomson), and TiVo is integrating their software with the platform under contract to DirecTV.


Yes, the "product" (as described the author) is a piece of hardware from DIRECTV. What isn't noted is that the hardware in question existed before the contract was even signed .. Meaning all of the Dev & QA were already done. Yet it's not "TiVo's fault."

Everyone is free to make their case and blame who they want at this point, but the meat of it is ..

TiVo thinks that their done .. They show it to DIRECTV and DIRECTV says, uh, no, you missed "this" or "that" go back and try again ..

I'm not shocked to see articles like this because this lather, rinse, repeat process will have gone on for at least 12 months before the product is finally released. However, one just hast to look at the TiVo Premier or the Comcast debacle to realize that TiVo's standards may not be all that high.

Yes, even DIRECTV makes mistakes as evidenced by the recent "slow" DVRs as has been widely reported here. However, there is a process by which things happen and certain milestones need to be met before going to the next step. All I can surmise is that TiVo has not met those milestones .. and as a result .. we have not seen the product.

At this point, 2011 is a slim possibility (less than 40%) .. 2012 is more likely now. But it's a moving target. I wish it were out already. I wish we were talking about what it really is and not what we think it is. It's been in beta testing for nearly 2 years now (although the first year probably really sucked). I've had the opportunity to see a picture or two and the ones posted here look legit. The interface is definitely the classic interface - it will look just like your "old" TiVo when you use it except you'll be able to see HD channels.

<pure speculation - zero knowledge from any source>
I think that the big problem is in how the MPEG4 is working .. trick play, etc.
<end speculation>

Oh, and a bonus for you TiVo lovers  .. OTA with the AM21? should have scan capability, just like earlier TiVos. :grin:


----------



## Doug Brott

I WANT MORE said:


> Thanks for the informative post. After reading it I am no longer interested in the DirecTivo and will disconnect and destroy the cable ones that I have.
> Thanks Again.


Actually, if TiVo had (long ago) flexed their Patent muscle and gotten licensing deals done, they would probably be in better shape today, but they would also not likely be the same type of company that they are today. However, the TiVo brand would be much more ubiquitous than it is now (even though they are still pretty good in branding).

Now that I think about it, though. TiVo probably was asking for too much money from everyone (hence very few deals made). If they'd stuck to a slightly different plan, then things may be better. Perhaps they flexed their muscles too much.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> However, there is a process by which things happen and certain milestones need to be met before going to the next step. All I can surmise is that TiVo has not met those milestones .. and as a result .. we have not seen the product.


If DirecTV can reasonably argue that certain technical milestones are not met, then they can legitimately delay it for more testing, even slow or stop the "development fee" payment. On the other hand, TiVo may react by pulling tech support away from this project to focus on others that have more promise. The cycle continues.

Speculation, not statement of fact


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> If DirecTV can reasonably argue that certain technical milestones are not met, then they can legitimately delay it for more testing, even slow or stop the "development fee" payment. On the other hand, TiVo may react by pulling tech support away from this project to focus on others that have more promise. The cycle continues.


And neither company would appear to be shedding many tears over it. Tivo got paid, DirecTV got their patent license, and neither of them have to deal with releasing this worthless product.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If DirecTV can reasonably argue that certain technical milestones are not met, then they can legitimately delay it for more testing, even slow or stop the "development fee" payment. On the other hand, TiVo may react by pulling tech support away from this project to focus on others that have more promise. The cycle continues.
> 
> Speculation, not statement of fact


OK jac, have it your way .. I'm not going to argue about something that I don't even have intimate knowledge about. Yes, what you say is speculation. Throw in enough "ifs" and we can have a big ol' party.

"if" TiVo got it right the first time, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

"if" DIRECTV had decided to use the Replay Patents for real (rather than as leverage) and "if" DIRECTV was right in that decision, then DIRECTV and TiVo wouldn't be talking today.

"if" I knew all of the details of the contract I wouldn't have to be tossing out "I thinks"

I don't really want to play that game .. I'm providing what I know today .. It may change tomorrow.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> If DirecTV can reasonably argue that certain technical milestones are not met, then they can legitimately delay it for more testing, even slow or stop the "development fee" payment. On the other hand, TiVo may react by pulling tech support away from this project to focus on others that have more promise. The cycle continues.
> 
> Speculation, not statement of fact


Again, Mr. Young, you're speculating. You seem to imagine DIRECTV as this deep conspiracy-laden organization with massive ulterior motives. Why? TiVo was years late in delivering to Comcast, and they're years late in delivering to DIRECTV. Are you saying that there's a conspiracy between Comcast and DIRECTV to hobble TiVo? Isn't it just more likely that TiVo just can't get the job done in time?

The simplest, plainest explanation to me is that TiVo can't deliver something solid enough to meet the level of quality that the HR2x receivers have now. I'm not saying that the HR2x line is perfect but maybe TiVo can't even get to that level of imperfection.

I work with a piece of vertical market software used by multimillion-dollar corporations all over the world. It's good, but it has several major bugs that have existed since version 1.0. I've been told several times that there just isn't the budget to bring in the people to fix them.

It's not too much of a stretch to imagine the TiVo coding department as half-a-dozen guys in small cubicles with too much work as it is. Maybe they're working as fast as they can.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> Again, Mr. Young, you're speculating. You seem to imagine DIRECTV as this deep conspiracy-laden organization with massive ulterior motives. Why? TiVo was years late in delivering to Comcast, and they're years late in delivering to DIRECTV. Are you saying that there's a conspiracy between Comcast and DIRECTV to hobble TiVo? Isn't it just more likely that TiVo just can't get the job done in time?
> 
> The simplest, plainest explanation to me is that TiVo can't deliver something solid enough to meet the level of quality that the HR2x receivers have now. I'm not saying that the HR2x line is perfect but maybe TiVo can't even get to that level of imperfection.
> 
> I work with a piece of vertical market software used by multimillion-dollar corporations all over the world. It's good, but it has several major bugs that have existed since version 1.0. I've been told several times that there just isn't the budget to bring in the people to fix them.
> 
> It's not too much of a stretch to imagine the TiVo coding department as half-a-dozen guys in small cubicles with too much work as it is. Maybe they're working as fast as they can.


You seem to be speculating a lot too above.

I don't understand why you view my speculation a conspiracy theory. By definition a conspiracy requires at least two parties. I have never speculated DirecTV had worked with someone else to delay this project.

Evidence now show that DirecTV has questioned the technical readiness of this TiVo box many times, asking TiVo to go back to testing again and again, even though TiVo insisted it was ready. If so, the delay is controlled by DirecTV in a way that conforms to the agreement, or at least not in violation of it.

I don't see anything wrong with that.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I seem to be speculating because I choose not to endanger my relationships in order to reveal my sources. 

I do applaud your efforts to derail my argument and question my credibility. Even though they were unsuccessful, your efforts show me that you truly care.


----------



## jacmyoung

Let me put it this way, even if DirecTV's tech department believes this thing is ready to deploy, I wouldn't blame them a bit if the management wants to delay it, within the scope of the agreement of course. In fact it is a responsible thing to do, consider the consistent buyout speculations, which TiVo seems to feed on, and the fact TiVo's poison pill is set to expire in a few months.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That's a fair speculation, although it conflicts with the information from my sources.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Let me put it this way, even if DirecTV's tech department believes this thing is ready to deploy, I wouldn't blame them a bit if the management wants to delay it, within the scope of the agreement of course. In fact it is a responsible thing to do, consider the consistent buyout speculations, which TiVo seems to feed on, and the fact TiVo's poison pill is set to expire in a few months.


Buyout speculations? Again? Are there any suitors?

Remember, delays also mean delayed return on investment. And each month of delay reduces the likely market for a TiVo on the DIRECTV world.



Stuart Sweet said:


> That's a fair speculation, although it conflicts with the information from my sources.


It also flies in the face of history as you've detailed. (Wasn't there also a huge delay in a Cox version?)

Seems Jacmyoung's argument is very inconsistent with history. Something along that lines of "there might be a first time..." 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> Wasn't there also a huge delay in a Cox version?


The Cox version ended up exactly like the Comcast version. Except Cox pulled the plug last year.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Buyout speculations? Again? Are there any suitors?


Apparently not you guys, but it is a big interest among the investors and the analysts, and in the real world of businesses, such speculation does have impact on business decisions.



> Remember, delays also mean delayed return on investment. And each month of delay reduces the likely market for a TiVo on the DIRECTV world.


I don't know how much DirecTV cares about such return, as compared to the prospect of committing its manufacturing capacity, marketing resources...only to have the support pulled from under due to possible change of TiVo ownership.



> It also flies in the face of history as you've detailed. (Wasn't there also a huge delay in a Cox version?)
> 
> Seems Jacmyoung's argument is very inconsistent with history. Something along that lines of "there might be a first time..."
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The history is not so clear. While TiVo's projects with Comcast and Cox had dismal results, similar to the current delay, TiVo's previous projects with DirecTV, its own projects, and several current ones with cablecos abroad or smaller cables in the US, did/do just fine. As the above linked article pointed out, those successful projects were often technically more complex ones too.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> The history is not so clear. While TiVo's projects with Comcast and Cox had dismal results, similar to the current delay, TiVo's previous projects with DirecTV, its own projects, and several current ones with cablecos abroad or smaller cables in the US, did/do just fine. As the above linked article pointed out, those successful projects were often technically more complex ones too.


The failed projects all have something in common: Tivo putting their software on someone else's hardware. I'm not aware of any successful launches of this type. Every product that has actually launched has been on Tivo's own hardware.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Apparently not you guys, but it is a big interest among the investors and the analysts, and in the real world of businesses, such speculation does have impact on business decisions.


Google "Tivo buyout" and the first page is all about 2005, 2006, 2008, etc. Only the very last entry is 2011. There is absolutely nothing new here.


jacmyoung said:


> I don't know how much DirecTV cares about such return, as compared to the prospect of committing its manufacturing capacity, marketing resources...only to have the support pulled from under due to possible change of TiVo ownership.
> 
> ['QUOTE]Again, this is always the case with TiVO. They've always been a target.
> 
> 
> jacmyoung said:
> 
> 
> 
> The history is not so clear. While TiVo's projects with Comcast and Cox had dismal results, similar to the current delay, TiVo's previous projects with DirecTV, its own projects, and several current ones with cablecos abroad or smaller cables in the US, did/do just fine. As the above linked article pointed out, those successful projects were often technically more complex ones too.
> 
> 
> 
> TiVo Premier--late
> TiVo HD--late, HD GUI was incomplete
> 
> and the other projects listed in the article are still underway. Can't call them successes until they launch...if ever.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
Click to expand...


----------



## I WANT MORE

http://hd.engadget.com/2011/07/14/new-directivo-launch-may-not-come-until-later-this-year/


----------



## LI-SVT

Doug,
Any chance the new TiVo will have smoother trick play for MPEG-4? I record my sports in SD to take advantage of the super smooth FF1.


----------



## ATARI

I WANT MORE said:


> http://hd.engadget.com/2011/07/14/new-directivo-launch-may-not-come-until-later-this-year/


Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Doug Brott

LI-SVT said:


> Doug,
> Any chance the new TiVo will have smoother trick play for MPEG-4? I record my sports in SD to take advantage of the super smooth FF1.


I have no idea as I haven't seen it in action ... BUT ... Knowing that the format of MPEG4 is different than MPEG2, I would expect similar results. I don't know the exact technical reason, but essentially the decoding chunks are bigger in MPEG4 than MPEG2 and as a result, FF in MPEG4 just looks more choppy than MPEG2.

So, my suspicion is that at best, MPEG4 trick play will look the same as the HR2x. For me, I watch virtually 100% MPEG4 (almost all of it HD), so I think I've just gotten used to it .. Oh, and I use 30-second skip which (by it's nature) masks that problem.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Knowing what I know about the nature of MPEG4, and presuming that the THR22-100 is the exact same hardware as the HR22-100, I don't see how trickplay could be better. Trickplay depends on the ability to find and display keyframes, which can be much more complex in MPEG4. The same hardware would be used in both devices, leading to the same results.


----------



## LI-SVT

Good point about the hardware. Still looking forward to seeing this materialize.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Stuart Sweet said:


> Knowing what I know about the nature of MPEG4, and presuming that the THR22-100 is the exact same hardware as the HR22-100, I don't see how trickplay could be better. Trickplay depends on the ability to find and display keyframes, which can be much more complex in MPEG4. The same hardware would be used in both devices, leading to the same results.


Some of TiVo's patented secret sauce might have some ability to help MPEG4 trickplay--but DIRECTV has licenses to all that secret sauce as well so the bottom line is still messy.

Given how MPEG4 is encoded, especially compactly using CABAC, the "best" way to trickplay might be to get a faster MPEG4 GPU and ram the data thru faster.

Coming back to reality, there might still be ways to index the data to create trickplay metadata. Ugh. 

Here is another thought to put into the mix. DIRECTV likely has far more experience with MPEG4 than TiVo. While sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can see solutions, I'm betting DIRECTV's development team has already far more knowledge of MPEG4 and thus a better chance of smoothing out trickplay than TiVo now.

Cheers,
Tom

Since that


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Google "Tivo buyout" and the first page is all about 2005, 2006, 2008, etc. Only the very last entry is 2011. There is absolutely nothing new here.


There is, TiVo's poison pill.

It was put in in 2001, last year TiVo made a change, it will now expire in 2011, in a few months.

If TiVo's problem is that they can't get their software to work properly on someone else' hardware, then there is no hope with DirecTV, they will not be able to switch to a TiVo hardware platform as easily like they did with Comcast.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> If TiVo's problem is that they can't get their software to work properly on someone else' hardware, then there is no hope with DirecTV, they will not be able to switch to a TiVo hardware platform as easily like they did with Comcast.


It does appear to be a huge problem for Tivo, but at least the HR22 is very similar to the hardware Tivo uses in their own boxes. Unlike the Motorola STBs they were trying to work with before, which are totally different.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> It does appear to be a huge problem for Tivo, but at least the HR22 is very similar to the hardware Tivo uses in their own boxes. Unlike the Motorola STBs they were trying to work with before, which are totally different.


It is similar to TiVo's older set top boxes, not their current generation hardware that has built in support for flash, much more memory and a much faster processor.

Also TiVo's older software is supposedly not designed to run on a HAL, instead running very close to the metal. This could be good on an HR22 where that can be used to recover speed in comparison with the DTV software on the HR-22, but is very bad from a development perspective.

The latest update on the DTV website indicates that Swivel search changed to integrated TiVo Search. Swivel search was an HME with the search engine running on the server farm and feeding results to the DVR as an HME screen (a lot like a web page or RVU view), but integrated search would be in the box for the UI and query generation, and result rendering. That is probably a non-trivial change. TiVo does have integrated search on the Premiere, but the UI for that is flash and can't be used on this box at all.

Given the change from swivel to integrated search only showed up in the latest web page feature list update, I would guess that it is a relatively recent change that DirecTV has asked TiVo to implement. Now this could fit with what others here are saying about performance. HME performance can be pretty poor given the round trip latency to the server farm and back over the internet for every button push. I am only speculating here, but this could explain a fair amount of what is coming to light. DTV sees it as meeting minimum performance expectation, but the reality is design wise that it is a major feature update to TiVo.

I wonder why this is the only the change to feature list of the website, streaming MRV and DECA support are not listed. It makes me think DTV has higher priority for integrated search to get to VOD than they do for sMRV or DECA. Based on customer desires expressed here, that seems backwards to me.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> It is similar to TiVo's older set top boxes, not their current generation hardware that has built in support for flash, much more memory and a much faster processor.


Luckily this is basically one of Tivo's older STBs.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Luckily this is basically one of Tivo's older STBs.


Yes, but you are just repeating yourself there. Adding integrated search is a new feature originally designed to run on newer set top boxes. Now it has to be ported back onto old hardware on an old creaky software environment. Also, it is development that can never be reused, even DTV has moved on from old hardware.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Yes, but you are just repeating yourself there.


Well your statment didn't make it clear that you understood this fact.


CuriousMark said:


> Adding integrated search is a new feature originally designed to run on newer set top boxes.


The UI was designed to run on the newer STBs. But I'm sure a lot of the underlying code can be reused. And that's the really important part.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Well your statment didn't make it clear that you understood this fact.


Saying "It is similar to TiVo's older set top boxes..." doesn't make it clear?



> The UI was designed to run on the newer STBs. But I'm sure a lot of the underlying code can be reused. And that's the really important part.


It has been pretty widely reported that TiVo's older software designs had the UI and underlying code tightly integrated and highly interdependent. TiVo employees have posted that one reason to go the Premiere architecture and use flash was so that they could separate the two by starting over.

My point is that backporting this underlying code into the old dependency riddled tighly integrated UI is probably not as easy as you might imagine. Thus it could explain some of the delay. Also, backported code has no future value to a company, that could explain a lack of focus and urgency, further explaining delays on the TiVo side.

I suspect if there had been a way to go with newer hardware, development would have been faster than what it is ending up being.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> I wonder why this is the only the change to feature list of the website, streaming MRV and DECA support are not listed. It makes me think DTV has higher priority for integrated search to get to VOD than they do for sMRV or DECA. Based on customer desires expressed here, that seems backwards to me.


Why would you assume that MRV is not a priority for DIRECTV?

DECA implementation should be as easy as TiVo saying "Turn the power own" for a DECA module to be attached. I suppose that might not be an easy task, but it certainly seems like a relatively easy addition to anything that they might be doing. All of the DECA "smarts" would be in the little white DECA module that is attached.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Not to worry....maybe they'll have the new DirecTivo unit on demo display in January at CES 2012....

...oh no wait...that was the past 2 years....


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> Why would you assume that MRV is not a priority for DIRECTV?


DirecTV's own website discussing the DirecTV TiVo changed the feature list to show Integrated Search in place of Swivel Search. It did not add MRV, whole home DVR support or DECA support.

Since that is the ONLY official information we have to go on, the website implies an official priority for Integrated search. It does not imply a priority for MRV.

My point is that it is clear from poster's here, that MRV would be more valuable feature to customers than integrated search. But that is not what we see on the DirecTV website.

So to answer your question, I am assuming that what I read on that website is a true indication of DirecTV priorities for the upcoming DirecTV DVR with TiVo service.

Are you assuming that this DirecTV FAQ page website is wrong and that the DVR will debut with MRV? I know you have hinted that MRV may be a follow-on development. If so, that would still place integrated search as a higher priority if it is being developed first.

Finally, I never assumed that MRV was zero priority, only that it is a lower priority than integrated search. Most posters here would most likely prefer that the relative priority of those two be inverted, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## CuriousMark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not to worry....maybe they'll have the new DirecTivo unit on demo display in January at CES 2012....
> 
> ...oh no wait...that was the past 2 years....


Hope springs eternal ;-)


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Finally, I never assumed that MRV was zero priority, only that it is a lower priority than integrated search. Most posters here would most likely prefer that the relative priority of those two be inverted, wouldn't you agree?


I would agree, please reread what I asked .. emphasis on the last word.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> DECA implementation should be as easy as TiVo saying "Turn the power own" for a DECA module to be attached. I suppose that might not be an easy task, but it certainly seems like a relatively easy addition to anything that they might be doing. All of the DECA "smarts" would be in the little white DECA module that is attached.


Agreed, DECA is probably much easier than integrated search. That again brings up the question of why it isn't being asked for first and listed as a feature.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> I would agree, please reread what I asked .. emphasis on the last word.


I did. We aren't talking about DirecTV DVRs here. Assuming that MRV is a high priority for DirecTV, which in general and for their own DVRs it quite obviously is, then why is it not listed as a feature for the DirecTV DVR with TiVo service? They updated the page to change the feature list, if this was intended for the box, why is it not listed there?

If you think I am assuming it is not important to DirecTV at all, then you missed my point. If you are making me a clear hint that it is taking me three or four posts to get, then maybe I am beginning to catch on.

[EDIT]removed "requested" as mentioned below[/EDIT]


----------



## Doug Brott

Where did DIRECTV make a list of "requested features?" I'd like to see that list.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> Where did DIRECTV make a list of "requested features?" I'd like to see that list.


Not requested features. Just Features. If I said requested then I was typing too fast. The FAQ page is linked above.

Here is a paste from it:


> For now we can tell you that the new TiVo HD DVR will have:
> 
> •Access to over 160 HD channels
> •DIRECTV CINEMA™, with thousands of shows and movies to watch instantly
> •TiVo Integrated Search across TV and Video on Demand
> •TiVo WishList® Searches, Suggestions and KidZone
> •DIRECTV DVR Scheduler


The word features doesn't even appear. But this is still a feaure list.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Not requested features. Just Features.


Exactly ..


----------



## jacmyoung

Mark, if I may summarize what you were trying to say in a subtle way, correct me if I am wrong.

DirecTV asked TiVo to implement a different search feature in the middle of the testing, something the users don't care much about, in doing so the change made it very difficult for TiVo due to the hardware constraint.

Meanwhile a very popular feature called "MRV", which should have been a relatively easy implemention due to the hardware similarity, was not a planned feature in this new DirecTiVo.


----------



## CuriousMark

jacmyoung said:


> Mark, if I may summarize what you were trying to say in a subtle way, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> DirecTV asked TiVo to implement a different search feature in the middle of the testing, something the users don't care much about, in doing so the change made it very difficult for TiVo due to the hardware constraint.
> 
> Meanwhile a very popular feature called "MRV", which should have been a relatively easy implemention due to the hardware similarity, was not a planned feature in this new DirecTiVo.


I hate when you put words in other people's mouths.

No, I said that the features listed on DirecTV's FAQ about this used to list swivel search now it lists integrated search. I have no way of knowing if DirecTV asked anything. I have no way of knowing when, I don't even know if testing is going on.

I am saying that based on reading between the lines here and at other places that this might be an indication that TiVo has been directed to implement integrated search instead of swivel search and that integrating anything into the old user interface was something TiVo employees said they wanted to get away from due to software dependency issues.

I don't call that a hardware constraint. I did not mention hardware at all, don't inject it into a discussion where it does not belong.

The same website does not mention streaming MRV, which is indeed a popular feature. I surmise from this that MRV is not an advertised feature. To my mind it should have been the other way around, but that part is my opinion. If that list included MRV many more people here might be willing to consider the new box and not give up on it.

I said these things in a detailed way, not a subtle way, specifically to prevent readers from jumping to the conclusion you just did.

Doug's responses made it clear we do not know the real feature set and reading too much into a FAQ on a website is probably not a good idea. Based on your response, I am beginning to agree with him.


----------



## jacmyoung

Which was precisely why I asked you to correct me, I suspected I wasn't entirely correct.

Now is this correct?

There are evidence implying that DirecTV asked TiVo to change/add the search functions, something low on the users' list, and TiVo's software people didn't like the change, which might have caused the delay.

Meanwhile MRV is a highly preferred feature, also an easy implementation, yet it is not planned for.

Could it be that to implement MRV, while a relatively easy task compared to the new search features, it involves a lot of work on the DirecTV part to implement, not TiVo. Since this agreement is about TiVo doing the work on the features, not DirecTV, DirecTV decided not to have it?

Instead, DirecTV dared the TiVo software engineers to come up with something (the search thing) TiVo often brags about, even though it is non-critical, in doing so pissed off those TiVo software engineers


----------



## Doug Brott

You guys seem to have a hard time reading between the lines of my posts up above ..


----------



## Tom Robertson

Wow, such a highly active imagination...



jacmyoung said:


> Which was precisely why I asked you to correct me, I suspected I wasn't entirely correct.
> 
> Now is this correct?
> 
> There are evidence implying that DirecTV asked TiVo to change/add the search functions, something low on the users' list, and TiVo's software people didn't like the change, which might have caused the delay.


Implying that DIRECTV (not DirecTV) *asked(?)* TiVo? Where does that come from? Certainly not from what is presented so far.

Where is it further hinted that TiVo's people didn't like the change? Are there any other possible explanations that might also apply?


jacmyoung said:


> Meanwhile MRV is a highly preferred feature, also an easy implementation, yet it is not planned for.


*Easy *to implement? If so, could you send me a version that runs on my PS3? 


jacmyoung said:


> Could it be that to implement MRV, while a relatively easy task compared to the new search features, it involves a lot of work on the DirecTV part to implement, not TiVo. Since this agreement is about TiVo doing the work on the features, not DirecTV, DirecTV decided not to have it?


!rolling

Why DIRECTV have to do _anything_ to implement MRV on TiVo's new box? MRV is the target TiVo must implement, not DIRECTV.


jacmyoung said:


> Instead, DirecTV dared the TiVo software engineers to come up with something (the search thing) TiVo often brags about, even though it is non-critical, in doing so pissed off those TiVo software engineers


DIRECTV _dared_? Maybe challenged their abilities, but remember this is business. The software guys don't have a choice. They do what they are told.

The thing is, we don't know. Why make stuff up? Especially that is less plausible than simpler answers...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Wow, such a highly active imagination...
> 
> Implying that DIRECTV (not DirecTV) *asked(?)* TiVo? Where does that come from? Certainly not from what is presented so far.
> 
> Where is it further hinted that TiVo's people didn't like the change? Are there any other possible explanations that might also apply?*Easy *to implement? If so, could you send me a version that runs on my PS3?
> !rolling
> 
> Why DIRECTV have to do _anything_ to implement MRV on TiVo's new box? MRV is the target TiVo must implement, not DIRECTV.
> 
> DIRECTV _dared_? Maybe challenged their abilities, but remember this is business. The software guys don't have a choice. They do what they are told.
> 
> The thing is, we don't know. Why make stuff up? Especially that is less plausible than simpler answers...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I am waiting to see if Mark will correct me, since none of the above was summarized from any statements you made, or Doug, or anyone else other than Mark.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> I am waiting to see if Mark will correct me


Maybe Mark has gotten tired of doing that, just like everyone else has.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I am waiting to see if Mark will correct me, since none of the above was summarized from any statements you made, or Doug, or anyone else other than Mark.


Mark has posted his comments multiple times .. in black and white. Just go read it again.

The only assumption being made that I see is that the "list" was what DIRECTV told TiVo .. really that "list" is the state of the project today .. not what DIRECTV said to TiVo. There is a distinct difference.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Jeremy W" said:


> Maybe Mark has gotten tired of doing that, just like everyone else has.


Or maybe not. Mark is also an active member on the TiVo investor board. While he can freely express his views there, I had a feeling he was using his words very carefully here


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Mark has posted his comments multiple times .. in black and white. Just go read it again.
> 
> The only assumption being made that I see is that the "list" was what DIRECTV told TiVo .. really that "list" is the state of the project today .. not what DIRECTV said to TiVo. There is a distinct difference.


But who decides what that list should look like? According to the link I provided earlier, DirecTV makes such list, so if DirecTV had modified the items on that list over time, they would have also told TiVo's software engineers what they needed to do to satisfy such changes or updates.


----------



## Doug Brott

TiVo makes product. DIRECTV markets product. Why is the "list" what DIRECTV told TiVo to work on? That latter point is an assumption. What is your justification for that assumption.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> But who decides what that list should look like? According to the link I provided earlier, DirecTV makes such list, so if DirecTV had modified the items on that list over time, they would have also told TiVo's software engineers what they needed to do to satisfy such changes or updates.


You are building supposition upon someone else's supposition. The article's author seems to have very little basis for his article and is very wrong in many areas given the bits of the contract that have been seen.

So my suggestion to you is to listen not to supposition but to sage words from people who really do know people... Especially when it correlates with the public materials.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> TiVo makes product. DIRECTV markets product. Why is the "list" what DIRECTV told TiVo to work on? That latter point is an assumption. What is your justification for that assumption.


Are you saying TiVo and DirecTV have the same say in what features to have? If so I would think TiVo would have wanted MRV for example, and DirecTV would likely have agreed, after all people seem to agree MRV is not hard to implement on the HR22 platform.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> You are building supposition upon someone else's supposition. The article's author seems to have very little basis for his article and is very wrong in many areas given the bits of the contract that have been seen.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Can you provide a few examples what that article said were not supported by the bits in the contract?


----------



## inkahauts

"jacmyoung" said:


> But who decides what that list should look like? According to the link I provided earlier, DirecTV makes such list, so if DirecTV had modified the items on that list over time, they would have also told TiVo's software engineers what they needed to do to satisfy such changes or updates.


You sure do like to make things far more complex than would seem to be required. I would have expected DirecTV to have a set of guidelines in their agreement with TiVo, and that it would have read something like this. You can not implement streaming from Netflix, xyz, etc... You can implement any feature or relatively similar feature that is on the DirecTV hrs as long as it follows and meets all of DirecTV guidelines, which are, abc, and are always subject to change, and we will always grant you access to that ever changing list so that you can make your units work with mrv, etc, when we have it running, etc....

So TiVo planned on a box based on what was actually out at the time, and low and behold, the three year slow poke pace that they have worked at has caused them to look like they missed the boat on mrv, even if it was planned all along as a second release, assuming they would have had the original box out before mrv was fully implemented...

That's far more logical than your left field guess that implies more conspiracy theory than against TiVo rather than TiVo just not programing things to spec, which based on all of tivos other projects, seems far more likely.


----------



## inkahauts

"jacmyoung" said:


> Are you saying TiVo and DirecTV have the same say in what features to have? If so I would think TiVo would have wanted MRV for example, and DirecTV would likely have agreed, after all people seem to agree MRV is not hard to implement on the HR22 platform.


Can you tell me who says mrv is easy to implement? And then can you show me they have actual proof of this?


----------



## Doug Brott

inkahauts said:


> Can you tell me who says mrv is easy to implement? And then can you show me they have actual proof of this?


jac said it earlier in this thread and then later said "everyone" thinks it's easy.

If it were we easy, it would be in there ..

How exactly is DIRECTV going to market a box without MRV? Why exactly would they want to? They have this huge commercial campaign right now talking about pausing in one room and starting back up in another room. What's a CSR supposed to say? Uh, err, well, except for the TiVo. :shrug:

Think about it for a minute .. take the path that flow down hill, just coast through it. Don't take the path that' much longer and has to cross mountains and rivers to get there.


----------



## jacmyoung

"inkahauts" said:


> You sure do like to make things far more complex than would seem to be required. I would have expected DirecTV to have a set of guidelines in their agreement with TiVo, and that it would have read something like this. You can not implement streaming from Netflix, xyz, etc... You can implement any feature or relatively similar feature that is on the DirecTV hrs as long as it follows and meets all of DirecTV guidelines, which are, abc, and are always subject to change, and we will always grant you access to that ever changing list so that you can make your units work with mrv, etc, when we have it running, etc....
> 
> So TiVo planned on a box based on what was actually out at the time, and low and behold, the three year slow poke pace that they have worked at has caused them to look like they missed the boat on mrv, even if it was planned all along as a second release, assuming they would have had the original box out before mrv was fully implemented...
> 
> That's far more logical than your left field guess that implies more conspiracy theory than against TiVo rather than TiVo just not programing things to spec, which based on all of tivos other projects, seems far more likely.


If your logic is that since new features like MRV had continued to appear during the course of the last three years, the project continued to be delayed. That is only a good logic if they are actually going to add such new features therefore need more time to work on them.

Yet from very early on we were told, no this box would not include any of such new features. So I don't think your logic holds.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> jac said it earlier in this thread and then later said "everyone" thinks it's easy.
> 
> If it were we easy, it would be in there ..
> 
> How exactly is DIRECTV going to market a box without MRV? Why exactly would they want to? They have this huge commercial campaign right now talking about pausing in one room and starting back up in another room. What's a CSR supposed to say? Uh, err, well, except for the TiVo. :shrug:
> 
> Think about it for a minute .. take the path that flow down hill, just coast through it. Don't take the path that' much longer and has to cross mountains and rivers to get there.


MRV had been in use on the HR platform for quite some time now, so yes I think it should not be too hard to have it on the THR22. It is a DirecTV's own feature, on its own hardware. I don't know if TiVo can even help much on the MRV other than modifying its UI to accommodate the use of the MRV.

On the other hand, there might be other reasons DirecTV did not want MRV on the THR22, if by doing MRV DirecTV would be compelled to share privileged information with TiVo.

What do you think?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> What do you think?


I think you stating "DirecTV did not want MRV on the THR22" is an assumption on your part .. Again, justification for such an assumption? Although you still haven't answered my last call, not sure why you will now.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Are you saying TiVo and DirecTV have the same say in what features to have? If so I would think TiVo would have wanted MRV for example, and DirecTV would likely have agreed, after all people seem to agree MRV is not hard to implement on the HR22 platform.


No, I'm saying: What is your justification for that assumption (that the posted "list" was given to TiVo by DIRECTV)? Just reread what I said earlier .. That's exactly what I said.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> No, I'm saying: What is your justification for that assumption (that the posted "list" was given to TiVo by DIRECTV)? Just reread what I said earlier .. That's exactly what I said.


First off, I did not say that, Mark speculated that DirecTV had given TiVo the list. I was only trying to clarify whether he meant it or not.

Secondly, if you are correct DirecTV only markets the box, not much else, then they should have started to market it some time ago, because TiVo had been saying it was ready for quite some time.

But if DirecTV kept asking TiVo to go back and work on it, as you have said, then that article was not so out of the line for saying DirecTV was in control.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> MRV had been in use on the HR platform for quite some time now, so yes I think it should not be too hard to have it on the THR22. It is a DirecTV's own feature, on its own hardware. I don't know if TiVo can even help much on the MRV other than modifying its UI to accommodate the use of the MRV.
> 
> On the other hand, there might be other reasons DirecTV did not want MRV on the THR22, if by doing MRV DirecTV would be compelled to share privileged information with TiVo.
> 
> What do you think?


Let me try to understand this.

Your logic sounds like:

MRV (software) exists on the HR2x platform
has existed on the platform for some time
therefore it is easy to write?
And not only it is easy to write, but easily written for a whole new software codebase (TiVo) that will happen to also run on the HR2x platform?

Is that the line of reasoning?

If so, it is bogus. MRV will need to be re-written by TiVo to conform to the TiVo software base. The routines that DIRECTV owns are pretty tightly intertwined with DIRECTVs middleware and not something DIRECTV will give away to TiVo.

So TiVo will have to write their own MRV modules and it will be a very similar development cycle as to what DIRECTV had to do in the past.

That said, TiVo will have access to working servers and clients to use in interoperability tests. That does help.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> First off, I did not say that, Mark speculated that DirecTV had given TiVo the list. I was only trying to clarify whether he meant it or not.
> 
> Secondly, if you are correct DirecTV only markets the box, not much else, then they should have started to market it some time ago, because TiVo had been saying it was ready for quite some time.
> 
> But if DirecTV kept asking TiVo to go back and work on it, as you have said, then that article was not so out of the line for saying DirecTV was in control.


Why should DIRECTV (not DirecTV) market a box that actually isn't ready? DIRECTV doesn't market their own boxes until they are ready.

DIRECTV's control is only "is it really ready?" TiVo controls the development methodology, development team, development organization. I don't control Nissan by not buying one, Nissan still controls it.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> But if DirecTV kept asking TiVo to go back and work on it, as you have said, then that article was not so out of the line for saying DirecTV was in control.


Well, since you still won't answer my question I guess we've moved past that point and you're just going to make erroneous assumptions .. Fine, go for it.

But to answer this comment .. Yup, you can point either direction if you want to. BUT, keep in mind TiVo has a history (Premier, Comcast, etc.) of releasing crap only to whitewash it or fix it later. I suspect that DIRECTV wants the features that the box does have to work at least as good as the current alternative (HR2x) or within some reasonable proximity. You can say, hey, TiVo is done and DIRECTV is blocking. I am saying TiVo thinks their done, but they really aren't.

So, going with your (always gotta be litigation) mantra .. IF, DIRECTV were blocking TiVo, then why the heck isn't TiVo just pulling out and taking their patents with them? Again .. simplest answer to that .. DIRECTV is not blocking TiVo .. TiVo just isn't up to snuff yet. 80% or 90% there isn't 100%. (and those numbers are made up for example only, so please don't assume them to be accurate in any way)


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Is that the line of reasoning?
> 
> If so, it is bogus. MRV will need to be re-written by TiVo to conform to the TiVo software base. The routines that DIRECTV owns are pretty tightly intertwined with DIRECTVs middleware and not something DIRECTV will give away to TiVo.


Did you read what I said, maybe the reason was that DirecTV did not want to share their own privileged MRV coding?


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> So, going with your (always gotta be litigation) mantra...)


Whatever you want to accuse me of, Mark indicated that there was a change in the development of the search engine design mid way, as a result some TiVo software engineer blogged that it was no longer worth the resources to work on that particular feature. Mark suggested the change was requested by DirecTV, you disagreed. That is fine, although I found it hard to believe that design change was a request by TiVo, because if so, we are basically saying TiVo made a technical decision to make a change, knowing that their own engineers had considered it not worth the effort.


----------



## wingrider01

jacmyoung said:


> Did you read what I said, maybe the reason was that DirecTV did not want to share their own privileged MRV coding?


speculating much? Seems like it would be easier to write the code from scratch for the alien software platform rather then modifying one that was written for a completely diffierent code platform


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Whatever you want to accuse me of, Mark indicated that there was a change in the development of the search engine design mid way, as a result some TiVo software engineer blogged that it was no longer worth the resources to work on that particular feature.


Really?! I this is the first I've even heard that a TiVo software engineer was blogging something. If you're talking about the Flash UI vs. the Classic UI, then that's a different beast and wasn't "blogged" it was in one of TiVo's announcements many years back.



> Mark suggested the change was requested by DirecTV, you disagreed.


No .. I was trying to lead in a different direction. I asked for justification (from you) as to why there was a change .. or more specifically, why does the change in the list of features from then to now mean that DIRECTV changed their request? There is no proof of that and there are other explanations as to why the list changed.



> That is fine, although I found it hard to believe that design change was a request by TiVo, because if so, we are basically saying TiVo made a technical decision to make a change, knowing that their own engineers had considered it not worth the effort.


Again, not sure how the TiVo engineers became involved. That seems like new information that you've just now added to this post.

There seems to be a disconnect. This started with a list that changed "swivel search" to "integrated search" .. Are we even sure that those are two different things? Maybe some marketing guy at DIRECTV screwed up and put the wrong technical term down. It's happened.

It then digressed to 'why would DIRECTV make search more important than MRV' (paraphrased) .. I then asked .. Why do you think DIRECTV made the request? That's what has lead us to here.

I think my "hints" should be pretty clear ..


----------



## RobertE

Can someone wake me up when there is some real news? All this BS bickering and wordplay by some has gotten...tiresome.


----------



## Tom Robertson

RobertE said:


> Can someone wake me up when there is some real news? All this BS bickering and wordplay by some has gotten...tiresome.


You might as well skip this thread altogether then. I don't expect real news in the life of this one. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Did you read what I said, maybe the reason was that DirecTV did not want to share their own privileged MRV coding?


They won't share the code, it won't do TiVo any good at all. That was my point.

You can be sure that DIRECTV wants all the capable receivers to be able to participate in MRV and that includes TiVo.

So TiVo needs to write their own code, based upon DIRECTVs specifications (which aren't that hard to understand: DLNA, DTCP-IP, etc.)

Obviously, if DIRECTV wants the feature, they are required to supply the specifications for said feature. And since I am sure DIRECTV wanted the feature, I am sure DIRECTV supplied reasonable specifications. (Heck, I've already shared 95% of them!) 

DIRECTV also "supplies" interoperability models via their other receivers. So TiVo "should" be able to do it. Thus, since it appears TiVo hasn't put MRV into the first feature list, TiVo "can't do it" (either in time or at all) or won't do it. Here is where the speculation really begins since we don't have enough insight as to what happened.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Really?! I this is the first I've even heard that a TiVo software engineer was blogging something. If you're talking about the Flash UI vs. the Classic UI, then that's a different beast and wasn't "blogged" it was in one of TiVo's announcements many years back.


According to Mark, the change in search method was a "most recent one", not years back.



> There seems to be a disconnect. This started with a list that changed "swivel search" to "integrated search" .. Are we even sure that those are two different things? Maybe some marketing guy at DIRECTV screwed up and put the wrong technical term down. It's happened.


According to Mark yes they are different, and the "integrated search" would suit the newer hardware not the HR22, again based on what TiVo's engineers said back when they did it for TiVo's own new hardware.

Now if you attribute the above change to a simple marketing guy making a mistake, that of course is possible, it would not be the first time they did so, although last time they did fix the $99 ordering mistake as quickly as it appeared. So maybe this one is not a mistake, besides the technical Q/A is probably not prepared by a marketing guy rather a tech person. I sure hope so. When I call DirecTV's tech department to ask a tech question, I have confidence the person at the other end of the line is not a marketing person.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> You might as well skip this thread altogether then. I don't expect real news in the life of this one.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I would not say there is no real news. Mark's observation about a most recent change in the DirecTV Q/A site was news to me, heck the article I linked earlier was news too, written by someone who seemed to have some connections in the field of high tech area.

I do agree though they are not good news, but had we stopped posting bad news in this thread, there would probably have been nothing to talk about for the last three years.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I would not say there is no real news. Mark's observation about a most recent change in the DirecTV Q/A site was news to me, heck the article I linked earlier was news too, written by someone who seemed to have some connections in the field of high tech area.
> 
> I do agree though they are not good news, but had we stopped posting bad news in this thread, there would probably have been nothing to talk about for the last three years.


So if I write the things I write here, but at a more "news-like" website, would you finally believe me when I tell you he is wrong? !rolling

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

Suffice it to say that any decision on search (again not even sure there was a change) has nothing to do with MRV .. DIRECTV would love to market an MRV solution .. They won't be.


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> If your logic is that since new features like MRV had continued to appear during the course of the last three years, the project continued to be delayed. That is only a good logic if they are actually going to add such new features therefore need more time to work on them.
> 
> Yet from very early on we were told, no this box would not include any of such new features. So I don't think your logic holds.


Um, yeah, you really do like to read peoples posts and mangle them to make it sound stupid..

I in no way even hinted that the reason the box is so delayed is because they where adding features. I said that the reason their box looks/is/will be so out of date in terms of features when it finally gets released is because the original feature set is so late to be delivered. Had they been on schedule in the first place, the unit would have looked fine for features when it was originally supposed to be released. Then they could have released an update by now that would have all these additional features, like MRV.

At this point, however, I wonder if a lack of MRV is going to really hurt the sales of this unit. Look at who's going to even be interested in it right now, to start anyway... People who are on SD tivos... They don't have MRV anyway. Also, people who have one box in their house, they won't care either...

How many people that have an HR would have dumped it for a tivo but now won't simply because of a lack of MRV?


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> MRV had been in use on the HR platform for quite some time now, so yes I think it should not be too hard to have it on the THR22. It is a DirecTV's own feature, on its own hardware. I don't know if TiVo can even help much on the MRV other than modifying its UI to accommodate the use of the MRV.
> 
> On the other hand, there might be other reasons DirecTV did not want MRV on the THR22, if by doing MRV DirecTV would be compelled to share privileged information with TiVo.
> 
> What do you think?


Yeah, and copy and paste is easy to do to, thats why when Apple released the iphone, it had it on there from day one, just like windows mobile phone 7 too.. 

Have you ever coded anything of that magnitude, where two totally different OS have to perfectly communicate with each other constantly for a extended length of time? When you do, let me know how easy it was...


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> Whatever you want to accuse me of, Mark indicated that there was a change in the development of the search engine design mid way, as a result some TiVo software engineer blogged that it was no longer worth the resources to work on that particular feature. Mark suggested the change was requested by DirecTV, you disagreed. That is fine, although I found it hard to believe that design change was a request by TiVo, because if so, we are basically saying TiVo made a technical decision to make a change, knowing that their own engineers had considered it not worth the effort.


HAHAH! Ok, lets go ahead and make all your usual off the cuff assumptions..

(even though we don't even know if anything was changed to the search feature. It was probably some marketing guy using the latest buzz word and has no real meaning and doesn't actually mean a change of any kind.)

Why do you think Tivo has so much trouble meeting any deadline? MANAGEMENT! They like to make decisions about things without understanding what is involved or even needed to make them work, as proven time and again by tivos total inability to deliver anything on time... So of course the writers might say that a change is stupid even though management made a technical call that was wrong.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> So if I write the things I write here, but at a more "news-like" website, would you finally believe me when I tell you he is wrong? !rolling
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


If you provide facts. You mentioned that the bits you learned about the contract disputed his statements, I asked if you could offer a few examples, can you?

As far as whether DirecTV is obligated to provide TiVo all the hardware specs to write the MRV codes, I am not so sure this is the case. While parties certainly agreed to assist each other in good faith, I don't think they are obligated to share trade secrets.

DirecTV's MRV is in every of its TV commercials I have seen lately, it is clearly a feature that gives DirecTV an edge over its competitors. I would not be surprised it had rightfully withheld some trade secrets from TiVo to the point that it would be very difficult for TiVo to write its own MRV codes to work with the DirecTV hardware.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> If you provide facts. You mentioned that the bits you learned about the contract disputed his statements, I asked if you could offer a few examples, can you?


!rolling

I see how it is. Megazone can post any outlandish things he wishes without any sources and you believe that. But I have to have "facts" (which I do)...


jacmyoung said:


> As far as whether DirecTV is obligated to provide TiVo all the hardware specs to write the MRV codes, I am not so sure this is the case. While parties certainly agreed to assist each other in good faith, I don't think they are obligated to share trade secrets.


DIRECTV has to have provided TiVo with the hardware specs or we wouldn't even be this close (theoretically close that is.) 

How else would TiVo be "ready" in their thinking...

So you are presuming DIRECTV does not want TiVo to support MRV? Even though supporting MRV is an obvious feature DIRECTV wants?

And, of course, they are required to exchange trade secrets to make it work. Not that MRV is very much of a trade secret at this point. Remember the first 95% is two things: DLNA and DTCP-IP.


jacmyoung said:


> DirecTV's MRV is in every of its TV commercials I have seen lately, it is clearly a feature that gives DirecTV an edge over its competitors. I would not be surprised it had rightfully withheld some trade secrets from TiVo to the point that it would be very difficult for TiVo to write its own MRV codes to work with the DirecTV hardware.


You are supposing again, ain't ya. How about supposing to listen to thems who really know people?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

For those interested, the redacted contract is a supporting document of one of TiVo's SEC filings: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1088825/000119312508251359/dex107.htm

I haven't checked each filing since to see if there are any further amendments of the document, I'll leave that up to other readers. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RobertE

Tom Robertson said:


> So if I write the things I write here, but at a more "news-like" website, would you finally believe me when I tell you he is wrong? !rolling
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Go for it, Swanni could use some competition. :lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> For those interested, the redacted contract is a supporting document of one of TiVo's SEC filings: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1088825/000119312508251359/dex107.htm
> 
> I haven't checked each filing since to see if there are any further amendments of the document, I'll leave that up to other readers.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for the link. After going through what's public in the agreement, I did not find any bits that can refute the statement made in that earlier article, where he said DIRECTV was in control of this project, not TiVo. In fact it supports his statement.

The agreement also gives DIRECTV the option to terminate in the event "change of control" of TiVo occurs. So a TiVo buyout will almost certainly end this project, regardless who buys TiVo.

I also read where the phrase "DIRECTV requested feature" is used in the agreement, which supports Mark's speculation that DIRECTV had requested the changes that appeared in their Q/A website. It does not prove it, but given that TiVo itself had long decided such change would make sense only on the new flash based platform, it was unlikely that the integrated search request was made by TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> it was unlikely that the integrated search request was made by TiVo.


We get it .. You think the delay is because of DIRECTV. I think it is because of TiVo. Let's just call it a stalemate.


----------



## Davenlr

Doug Brott said:


> Let's just call it a stalemate.


Like its release?


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Thanks for the link. After going through what's public in the agreement, I did not find any bits that can refute the statement made in that earlier article, where he said DIRECTV was in control of this project, not TiVo. In fact it supports his statement.
> 
> The agreement also gives DIRECTV the option to terminate in the event "change of control" of TiVo occurs. So a TiVo buyout will almost certainly end this project, regardless who buys TiVo.
> 
> I also read where the phrase "DIRECTV requested feature" is used in the agreement, which supports Mark's speculation that DIRECTV had requested the changes that appeared in their Q/A website. It does not prove it, but given that TiVo itself had long decided such change would make sense only on the new flash based platform, it was unlikely that the integrated search request was made by TiVo.


To me, control means project management which in turn means who identifies the resources, allocates them, manages and oversees their daily activities, adjusts the work schedules to meet deadlines, etc. That is clearly TiVo's responsibility and DIRECTV has penalties if they delay the project.

Now if you limit the meaning of control to "who will let it launch", then yes, DIRECTV has the final approval--though again, they have to test and reply within certain time windows. But you see, TiVo can still "control" just by making the thing work. 

And change of control clauses are common in most contracts. DIRECTV can cancel--but only if TiVo is actually bought out. Until then, DIRECTV has to do their part too. Since TiVo has not been bought out, that is all superfluous speculation at this point.

Lastly, there are who sections of the agreement that describe the process of requesting changes once the statement of work has been approved. That also is common to services agreements (like required, how else would one have a services to agree?) That does not imply anything about any particular feature. Speculating about what was on the original list is senseless unless one knows insiders.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

Directv was responsible for statement of work, but change orders could be made by either party.

I mentioned the "change of control" provision because some folks argued a TiVo buyout would not necessarily end the project, but Directv seemed to make a point of them able to end it if TiVo was bought out.

Kudos to Directv for getting an agreement which they have the control, I am not surprised by it, consider that they are by far the smartest player among all DVR makers, when it comes to dealing with TiVo, that includes relying on TiVo when their own DVR got off a slow start, buying ReplayTV for penny on the dollar, not relying on TiVo when they do not need to, doing so all this time without getting drawn into the legal battles.


----------



## Hoosier205

I'm not sure why you all are feeding into this...


----------



## RobertE

Hoosier205 said:


> I'm not sure why you all are feeding into this...


Some folks like to pay the t oll.


----------



## Doug Brott

Hoosier205 said:


> I'm not sure why you all are feeding into this...





RobertE said:


> Some folks like to pay the t oll.


No one is forcing you to read this thread .. which, quite frankly is going to end in locking at the end of the quarter as another is started.


----------



## RobertE

Doug Brott said:


> No one is forcing you to read this thread .. which, quite frankly is going to end in locking at the end of the quarter as another is started.


So what thread do you suggest I follow to keep up to date with developments (or lack of) and not be bombarded by nonstop bickering and twisting of words? I have a vested interest in whether or not this thing sees the light of day.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Directv was responsible for statement of work,


Wrong. 2.10(b) Page 14:


> For clarification, TiVo shall be primarily responsible for the work required in preparing and developing the Statement of Work and DIRECTV shall provide information and efforts as provided for herein. If the parties are unable to agree on the terms of the TE Solution Statement of Work, TiVo may terminate this Agreement for Non-TiVo Delay as provided for in Section 9.4.





jacmyoung said:


> but change orders could be made by either party.


Um... That is standard services agreement lingo. Both parties have to be able to make changes as the situation dictates.


jacmyoung said:


> I mentioned the "change of control" provision because some folks argued a TiVo buyout would not necessarily end the project, but Directv seemed to make a point of them able to end it if TiVo was bought out.


Wrong again. 4.21 Page 32 (bolding mine)


> ...DIRECTV *may* elect to immediately terminate this Agreement (the "Option") by providing TiVo with written notice within [*] after receiving the COC Notice (the "Termination Notice"). Such termination shall be without liability to either party. If DIRECTV does not provide TiVo with the Termination Notice within ninety (90) days of receiving the COC Notice from TiVo, then the Option shall lapse.


 TiVo is servicing DIRECTV. Should TiVo be purchased by a DIRECTV competitor, DIRECTV can cancel the agreement (which only makes sense).

Since DIRECTV is unlikely to be purchased by a TiVo competitor, there is no need for a comparable clause for TiVo's sake. Again, this is very standard lingo; I've managed several contracts with vendors that all have this section.


jacmyoung said:


> Kudos to Directv for getting an agreement which they have the control,


Which control?

Again, TiVo has control of their resources, they control doing the job.

If you mean control of the actual release, then remember DIRECTV can be penalized for Non-TiVo delays.

Lastly, this is a services agreement. Who is the buyer here?


jacmyoung said:


> I am not surprised by it, consider that they are by far the smartest player among all DVR makers, when it comes to dealing with TiVo, that includes relying on TiVo when their own DVR got off a slow start, buying ReplayTV for penny on the dollar, not relying on TiVo when they do not need to, doing so all this time without getting drawn into the legal battles.


Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Hoosier205 said:


> I'm not sure why you all are feeding into this...





RobertE said:


> Some folks like to pay the t oll.


The concession stand is open around the clock. !pepsi! and :new_popco are always available.


----------



## Doug Brott

RobertE said:


> So what thread do you suggest I follow to keep up to date with developments (or lack of) and not be bombarded by nonstop bickering and twisting of words? I have a vested interest in whether or not this thing sees the light of day.


I doubt you'll miss out on the real news .. This thread is no different than the 15 that preceded it, so it shouldn't come as a surprise.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> ... TiVo is servicing DIRECTV. ...


That just sounds wrong in so many ways :nono:  !rolling


----------



## Tom Robertson

RobertE said:


> So what thread do you suggest I follow to keep up to date with developments (or lack of) and not be bombarded by nonstop bickering and twisting of words? I have a vested interest in whether or not this thing sees the light of day.


First off, you pretty much can ignore this thread altogether. There is very little chance of any "News" this quarter.  (Or for TiVo fans,  )

Second off, you can look at the home page: http://www.dbstalk.com/ we'll almost certainly post any news there.

Third off, your reminder to update the thread title if there is any actual launch news is a good one. Thanks.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> Tom Robertson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... TiVo is servicing DIRECTV. ...
> 
> 
> 
> That just sounds wrong in so many ways :nono:  !rolling
Click to expand...

Hmm... might not just sound wrong... :eek2::grin:


----------



## Hoosier205

"Doug Brott" said:


> No one is forcing you to read this thread .. which, quite frankly is going to end in locking at the end of the quarter as another is started.


Ouch...


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Wrong. 2.10(b) Page 14:Um... That is standard services agreement lingo. Both parties have to be able to make changes as the situation dictates.Wrong again. 4.21 Page 32 (bolding mine) TiVo is servicing DIRECTV. Should TiVo be purchased by a DIRECTV competitor, DIRECTV can cancel the agreement (which only makes sense).
> 
> Since DIRECTV is unlikely to be purchased by a TiVo competitor, there is no need for a comparable clause for TiVo's sake. Again, this is very standard lingo; I've managed several contracts with vendors that all have this section. Which control?
> 
> Again, TiVo has control of their resources, they control doing the job.
> 
> If you mean control of the actual release, then remember DIRECTV can be penalized for Non-TiVo delays.
> 
> Lastly, this is a services agreement. Who is the buyer here?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I think considering all the facts, circumstantial evidence, speculations not just by posters here but by analysts and people in the field, and how well Directv had planned each step in the past with the respect of developing its DVR service without the risk of litigations, it is a reasonable theory that Directv had a very good plan and control in this project as well.

Otherwise, one would have concluded that, when they signed this new agreement with TiVo, they did it with high hope of the new DirecTiVo's success, by agreeing to pay a significantly higher fee, only to discover that TiVo had limited it to not having any newer features, i.e. not worth such a high fee, yet Directv only lucked out because TiVo, being such a terribly managed company, had failed to deliver, which apparently Directv had no idea of three years ago. But Directv took that chance, and it paid off only because TiVo is such a screw up

If so, good for Directv as well, I hope they know such luck does not come too often, next time, don't get into something that you have little control over, who knows, the other guy might just be good at delivering the goods.


----------



## Doug Brott

What is your point? I know DIRECTV wanted (and still wants today) for the DIRECTV TiVo to be a success.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Really, DIRECTV would have won either way. If TiVo had delivered a killer device, on time and on schedule (despite never having done so before) DIRECTV would have benefited greatly. Since TiVo could not do so, at least to date, DIRECTV benefits by continuing to develop its highly successful line of HR2x receivers.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> Really, DIRECTV would have won either way. If TiVo had delivered a killer device, on time and on schedule (despite never having done so before) DIRECTV would have benefited greatly. Since TiVo could not do so, at least to date, DIRECTV benefits by continuing to develop its highly successful line of HR2x receivers.


My point is, since Doug is asking this, a smart company, which I think Directv is, does not agree on paying a much higher fee, soly relying on "if", not to mention it would never have been a "killer device" in the first place, without having formulated a very good plan for control, before entering such agreement.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> What is your point? I know DIRECTV wanted (and still wants today) for the DIRECTV TiVo to be a success.


Since you and pretty much everyone else agree that this device, even if released, could not be a success, due to its lack of features, to say DirecTV still hopes for a success, is basically saying Directv is having some wishful thinking

Still plans to release it some day, maybe, still hopes for a success? I doubt it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> My point is, since Doug is asking this, a smart company, which I think Directv is, does not agree on paying a much higher fee, soly relying on "if", not to mention it would never have been a "killer device" in the first place, without having formulated a very good plan for control, before entering such agreement.


I'm still hoping for a sense of the type of "control" being discussed.

cheers,
Tom


----------



## DogLover

"jacmyoung" said:


> My point is, since Doug is asking this, a smart company, which I think Directv is, does not agree on paying a much higher fee, soly relying on "if", not to mention it would never have been a "killer device" in the first place, without having formulated a very good plan for control, before entering such agreement.


They would if the higher fee is per receiver and they planned on passing that higher fee along to the customer.


----------



## Doug Brott

DogLover said:


> They would if the higher fee is per receiver and they planned on passing that higher fee along to the customer.


Common sense is a beautiful thing


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Common sense is a beautiful thing


Common sense tells me, a company, if smart, would not have agreed to have another company develop a product that lacks features, yet commands a much higher fee, thinking that they can simply pass the cost on to its customers, and hoping that product would be a success.


----------



## wingrider01

jacmyoung said:


> Common sense tells me, a company, if smart, would not have agreed to have another company develop a product that lacks features, yet commands a much higher fee, thinking that they can simply pass the cost on to its customers, and hoping that product would be a success.


given tivo's dismal performance in the stock market, it is a pretty good indication they are grasping at the end of the rope of financial stabiltiy.

.30 cents per share loss at the end of Q4 2011
18.7% loss in revenue
10.2% loss in service
38.5% loss in hardware

current quarter loss expected to be 35 - 37 million by management, with an expected adjusted EBITA of 25 - 27 Million for Q1 with a expected loss of .31 cents per share for Q1.

Bottom line - Directv does not need tivo, but tivo badly needs Directv


----------



## LI-SVT

Will this new Tivo have both sat delivered and broadband VOD? My kids love one of the shows that is only available from ch 1000 on demand.


----------



## lotbass

inkahauts said:


> At this point, however, I wonder if a lack of MRV is going to really hurt the sales of this unit. Look at who's going to even be interested in it right now, to start anyway... People who are on SD tivos... They don't have MRV anyway. Also, people who have one box in their house, they won't care either...
> 
> How many people that have an HR would have dumped it for a tivo but now won't simply because of a lack of MRV?


Lack of MRV won't stop me from buying one. I still have two 10-250's active because my wife wants the TIVO SW... so much that she doesn't care she is only watching in SD even though I have a DirecTV DVR that records HD connected to the same TV.

I do understand lack of MRV will cause confusion in their ads. I also hope the "Duke HD-DirecTIVO Forever" will live happily with other MRV units on the same switches, but will buy 1 or 2 either way.


----------



## ATARI

wingrider01 said:


> Bottom line - Directv does not need tivo, but tivo badly needs Directv


Amen!


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## ATARI

lotbass said:


> Lack of MRV won't stop me from buying one. I still have two 10-250's active because my wife wants the TIVO SW... so much that she doesn't care she is only watching in SD even though I have a DirecTV DVR that records HD connected to the same TV.
> 
> I do understand lack of MRV will cause confusion in their ads. I also hope the "Duke HD-DirecTIVO Forever" will live happily with other MRV units on the same switches, but will buy 1 or 2 either way.


And much like Duke Nukem Forever, when the HD DirecTiVo finally does get released, a lot of people are going to be majorly disappointed.


----------



## DogLover

"jacmyoung" said:


> Common sense tells me, a company, if smart, would not have agreed to have another company develop a product that lacks features, yet commands a much higher fee, thinking that they can simply pass the cost on to its customers, and hoping that product would be a success.


1. If it had been delivered on time, it would not have been behind in features, or at least it wouldn't have significantly behind.
2. They certainly have had an indication that they have customers that are willing to accept a TiVo box, even with inferior features. After all, there are customers that are willing to accept SD only, to keep their TiVo.
3. We don't know what they consider success for this product. If they consider it a niche product, perhaps they would co sider it a success at much lower numbers at we would. If half of the people who have SD TiVos upgraded within 2 years, would that be a success?


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## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Maybe Mark has gotten tired of doing that, just like everyone else has.


Thank you.

While I am at it, I guess I do need to read between the lines better, but not try to post my thoughts about them where they will just get all twisted into entirely different things.


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## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> Mark has posted his comments multiple times .. in black and white. Just go read it again.
> 
> The only assumption being made that I see is that the "list" was what DIRECTV told TiVo .. really that "list" is the state of the project today .. not what DIRECTV said to TiVo. There is a distinct difference.


Yes, we don't know what was said, asked for, demanded, or negotiated. Heck we don't even know which of those words might be the right one to use.

Interesting, so if the list is the state of the project today, then I could ascribe past delays to integrating search, not future ones as I was doing. That certainly explains a lot to my tin foil hat protected mind.


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## Doug Brott

DogLover said:


> 3. We don't know what they consider success for this product. If they consider it a niche product, perhaps they would co sider it a success at much lower numbers at we would. If half of the people who have SD TiVos upgraded within 2 years, would that be a success?


I'd have to believe delivery is a success .. Remember, DISH was fined $500 MM (going from memory) and probably spent even more than that just fighting to get to that point.

DIRECTV spent $36 MM on Replay + staff lawyers negotiating with TiVo + maybe $10-$20 MM on TiVo development fees + other fees. It's safe to say (I think) that DIRECTV spent less than 10-cents on the dollar (as compared to DISH) for the right to freely develop their own DVR which has millions of units delivered.

So, as far as I can tell, if DIRECTV sells one viable unit .. It's a success in their eyes (remember we have always said it's a win-win for DIRECTV).

TiVo on the other hand will need to sell some number of units to be a success - I couldn't begin to tell you what that number may be, though.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Yes, we don't know what was said, asked for, demanded, or negotiated. Heck we don't even know which of those words might be the right one to use.
> 
> Interesting, so if the list is the state of the project today, then I could ascribe past delays to integrating search, not future ones as I was doing. That certainly explains a lot to my tin foil hat protected mind.


 .. It wasn't you that derailed the discussion. I understood what you were trying to say .. Just point out where the decision lies with regards to MRV as I think you got that part wrong.


----------



## CuriousMark

inkahauts said:


> Can you tell me who says mrv is easy to implement? And then can you show me they have actual proof of this?


He is basing that off of something I said. While streaming MRV is certainly not easy to implent, my point was that it was possibly easier than integrating TiVo Search into the old UI. I consider it to be a matter of degree. Not that I actually know, I don't. This is raw speculation that got amplified beyond recognition.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> No, I'm saying: What is your justification for that assumption (that the posted "list" was given to TiVo by DIRECTV)? Just reread what I said earlier .. That's exactly what I said.


That posted list is published by DirecTV and is what they are saying the new box will do when it comes out. I agree we have no idea what DirecTV is saying to TiVo, or vice versa, in private.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> He is basing that off of something I said. While streaming MRV is certainly not easy to implent, my point was that it was possibly easier than integrating TiVo Search into the old UI. I consider a matter of degree. Not that I actually know, I don't. This is raw speculation that got amplified beyond recognition.


I don't know either, but I could agree that the number of permutations in search is greater than that of MRV .. So there is some reason to believe that adding MRV would be easier than adding search.

What we know is that "Swivel Search" was one of the two features listed in the very original press release. Another way to look at is may be that TiVo failed to deliver of "Swivel Search" even though it was likely one of the few required features (remember it was announced). DIRECTV may have said, sure, we'll accept "Integrated Search" as an alternate, but it's gotta have search. We don't know for sure what that means. Again, I not entirely convinced that the two are different beasts. It may simply be a name change from the Marketing arm and have zero to do with engineering the darn thing.

And for the record, I do think I would rate search above MRV for a DVR. Tough to record something if you can't easily find it.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> But to answer this comment .. Yup, you can point either direction if you want to. BUT, keep in mind TiVo has a history (Premier, Comcast, etc.) of releasing crap only to whitewash it or fix it later. I suspect that DIRECTV wants the features that the box does have to work at least as good as the current alternative (HR2x) or within some reasonable proximity. You can say, hey, TiVo is done and DIRECTV is blocking. I am saying TiVo thinks their done, but they really aren't.


Your assumptions are pretty harsh there. Premiere had problems, but their 1.0 was not a whole lot worse than DirecTV's 1.0 on the HR series, which is pretty comparable.

Comcast wasn't crap either, it was the best that could be done within very tight limitations of trying to run a DVR on middleware stack from a competitor on really ancient hardware. They finally got it working and it is better than the competitor's guide on the same hardware, but that middleware never made it out to any other head ends. Now Comcast is end arounding that Vendor and allowing TiVo to get VOD by talking directly to their Xfinity servers, cutting out that connection to the local head end and competitor's middleware.

I think things DirecTV doesn't like and wants fixed, could have been identified earlier had they both been communicating better. Blaming it only on TiVo is just as unrealistic as blaming it all on DirecTV.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> I think things DirecTV doesn't like and wants fixed, could have been identified earlier had they both been communicating better. Blaming it only on TiVo is just as unrealistic as blaiming it all on DirecTV.


Who says there have been communication issues?


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Your assumptions are pretty harsh there. Premiere had problems, but their 1.0 was not a whole lot worse than DirecTV's 1.0 on the HR series, which is pretty comparable.


I do not disagree with this statement .. BUT .. We are 5 years removed from that. DIRECTV KNOWS that it sucked then, why would they choose to go that route again? I would think everyone involved (including TiVo) would want 1.0 of the new DIRECTiVo to be better than that. The bar is simply higher now.



> I think things DirecTV doesn't like and wants fixed, could have been identified earlier had they both been communicating better. Blaming it only on TiVo is just as unrealistic as blaiming it all on DirecTV.


This is where I think you and I will simply disagree. I'm sure TiVo thinks they're done, but they could always pull the "it's DIRECTV's fault" card and yank the Patent Rights back putting DIRECTV in a precarious position. TiVo must be at least acknowledging that things are not delayed because of DIRECTV (at this point).


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> .. or more specifically, why does the change in the list of features from then to now mean that DIRECTV changed their request? There is no proof of that and there are other explanations as to why the list changed.


I think the development spec would have had to change if they switched from swivel search to integrated search. The change is too big tecnically to handle in a few sentences, handshake and nod.



> There seems to be a disconnect. This started with a list that changed "swivel search" to "integrated search" .. Are we even sure that those are two different things?


At the time of the original agreement, before the Premiere came out, integrated search did not exist. All that TiVo had at that time was a beta that ran over HME just as swivel search did. Integrated search debuted on the Premiere and was one of the defining features of the Premiere, another defining feature being the buggy flash based HDUI.

The difference is that swivel search is run on the servers, including the UI part of it, and the result is served to the DVR as an HME screen (think web page). As the user presses a remote button the DVR passes that back to the server for processing, every single keystroke, there is no local processing, it is the thinnest of thin clients, not even a full line of text is buffered as is done by a web browser. From the perspective of a DirecTV person it might be similar to DirecTV putting an RVU server at their uplink site and allowing clients to talk with it over the internet.

Integrated search is tightly integrated with the UI in the local box which then sends off the back end queries to the server farm. The only released implementation of this exists in the Premiere's HDUI. So the local DVR handles all user UI interactions to provide fast response, buffers things that make sense and sends higher level queries or commands to the servers which respond with results that the local box UI then formats for the screen itself.

So yes, they are quite different.



> Maybe some marketing guy at DIRECTV screwed up and put the wrong technical term down. It's happened.


I don't know how a marketing guy could have made that as a mistake, given it didn't exist in the first iteration, and wouldn't have been added in the second unless that is the mistake. Saying they are offering integrated search and then delivering swivel search would be noticed immediately and not in a good way.


----------



## Doug Brott

OK .. that just shows my lack of knowledge on the Search descriptions .. Thanks for the info as it is helpful to my understanding.

Now, TiVo could have just as easily made the decision to switch from Swivel to Integrated.

Swivel may have gone slower if it was using remote servers (i.e. required an Internet connection to work) .. Not everyone is networked, so not everyone would be able to use Swivel Search if it required remote servers. I didn't know that, perhaps DIRECTV didn't know it at the time either (yeah, they should have, but I can see how that particular fact may have slipped).

So, in that respect, if it is the change in Search methodology, then a failure to communicate (or really, understand the concept) could be in play. It may be that incorrect assumptions were made which resulted in this latest delay.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> I'd have to believe delivery is a success .. Remember, DISH was fined $500 MM (going from memory) and probably spent even more than that just fighting to get to that point.
> 
> DIRECTV spent $36 MM on Replay + staff lawyers negotiating with TiVo + maybe $10-$20 MM on TiVo development fees + other fees. It's safe to say (I think) that DIRECTV spent less than 10-cents on the dollar (as compared to DISH) for the right to freely develop their own DVR which has millions of units delivered.
> 
> So, as far as I can tell, if DIRECTV sells one viable unit .. It's a success in their eyes (remember we have always said it's a win-win for DIRECTV).
> 
> TiVo on the other hand will need to sell some number of units to be a success - I couldn't begin to tell you what that number may be, though.


Now we are talking!

As long as we can agree, the major part of the new agreement had to do with objectives other than simply wanting a nice DVR with nice and stable features to satisfy a serious demand (let't call it "the technical reason"), it is reasonable to speculate, whatever happens to this project, the reasons behind whatever is happening, may not be purely due to the technical reason, especially when the technical reason alone just can't cut it in order to explain the extraordinary level of failure this project has been so far.


----------



## CuriousMark

Tom Robertson said:


> Thus, since it appears TiVo hasn't put MRV into the first feature list, TiVo "can't do it" (either in time or at all) or won't do it. Here is where the speculation really begins since we don't have enough insight as to what happened.


Tom, that feature list on DirecTV's website, not TiVo's. TiVo's CEO has been quoted as saying that information on this box comes from DirecTV since TiVo is a subcontractor and it is not their place to speak for DirecTV. It is not right to jump to the conclusion that TiVo can't do it because DirecTV has not included it on the feature list that DirecTV is publishing. While it might be case, it is no more accurate to reach that conclusion than it is to say that DirecTV doesn't want the TiVo to have streaming MRV.

We don't have the insight, so lets be fair on both sides.

What seems likely is that DirecTV wants it, and getting it added at this late date is adding yet more delay because doing it on that old software infrastructure is time consuming or difficult, or both.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Now we are talking!
> 
> As long as we can agree, the major part of the new agreement had to do with objectives other than simply wanting a nice DVR with nice and stable features to satisfy a serious demand (let't call it "the technical reason"), it is reasonable to speculate, whatever happens to this project, the reasons behind whatever is happening, may not be purely due to the technical reason, especially when the technical reason alone just can't cut it in order to explain the extraordinary level of failure this project has been so far.


Thank you for finally understanding what I've been saying the past 2 and a half years.


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## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Thank you for finally understanding what I've been saying the past 2 and a half years.


Yet I have a hunch you still do not fully understand what I was saying, between the lines.

If, according to Mark (correct me if I am wrong), TiVo's CEO said the feature list was from Directv not TiVo, how much can we rely on such statement?


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## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Yet I have a hunch you still do not fully understand what I was saying, between the lines.
> 
> If, according to Mark (correct me if I am wrong), TiVo's CEO said the feature list was from Directv not TiVo, how much can we rely on such statement?


What "such statement?" I've always said that part of the reason for this agreement was to have access to the Patents without having to fight for them.


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## CuriousMark

Tom Robertson said:


> !Megazone can post any outlandish things he wishes without any sources


They aren't all that outlandish. For sources you can look at the TiVo conference call notes and their responses when asked about this initiative. The feature set is under DirecTV control, that isn't to say DirecTV may wish for other features that aren't currently listed, but they really are the customer here and in control.

With that said, I am sure it is a two way street and the comanies are talking with each other and negotiating things here and there. Still I know that in the past features from TiVo stand_alones were never added to DirecTV DVRs with TiVo service that DirecTV didn't want. Networking, copy MRV, TiVo ToGo, TiVo ToComeBack are such features that could have been added years ago but never were. Even today you know as well as I do that DirecTV will not want Amazon VOD added to the feature list. Clearly DirecTV is in control, but reasonably so, and Magazone is right about that sort of thing.

Now DirecTV may want streaming MRV added instead of taking and using fully developed and working copy MRV, but that one feature, or lack of it coming to light, does not mean DirecTV is not in control.


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## CuriousMark

LI-SVT said:


> Will this new Tivo have both sat delivered and broadband VOD? My kids love one of the shows that is only available from ch 1000 on demand.


I believe so. It is not clear whether it will do the speculative downloads to reserved disk areas like the DirecTV HR series DVRs do.


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## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> What "such statement?" I've always said that part of the reason for this agreement was to have access to the Patents without having to fight for them.


The statement made by Rogers that the feature list was the work of Directv, not Tivo.

I am not too sure Directv wanted to have access to the Tivo patents, as the big reason to have the agreement.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> What we know is that "Swivel Search" was one of the two features listed in the very original press release. Another way to look at is may be that TiVo failed to deliver of "Swivel Search" even though it was likely one of the few required features (remember it was announced). DIRECTV may have said, sure, we'll accept "Integrated Search" as an alternate, but it's gotta have search. We don't know for sure what that means. Again, I not entirely convinced that the two are different beasts. It may simply be a name change from the Marketing arm and have zero to do with engineering the darn thing.


That simply doesn't make sense at all to me. Swivel search was TiVo's first iteration of search and it was already delivered. Adding it to the DirecTV DVR would be straightforward since a lot of existing Series 3 code could be reused with very little change. However swivel search has one big flaw, and that is performance. remote button presses are handled on the head end server, not in the DVR.

TiVo is on record at TCF as saying that making changes to the old UI was getting too difficult and that redesigning from the ground up for the Premiere was needed. An integrated search is built into the UI.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Who says there have been communication issues?


Pure speculation. I don't know if there were or not.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> The statement made by Rogers that the feature list was the work of Directv, not Tivo.
> 
> I am not too sure Directv wanted to have access to the Tivo patents, as the big reason to have the agreement.


Oh, then clearly we don't agree as you thought we did. I think access to the Patents was the biggest reason. Extra subscribers (who just had to have a TiVo) was a bonus.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> Oh, then clearly we don't agree as you thought we did. I think access to the Patents was the biggest reason. Extra subscribers (who just had to have a TiVo) was a bonus.


I am inclined to think Directv has no need, or little need for access to Tivo's patents, to make their own DVRs. Rather that Directv did not want the hassle of Tivo accusing them of "accessing" the Tivo patents, even if Directv has no need for such access.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> That simply doesn't make sense at all to me. Swivel search was TiVo's first iteration of search and it was already delivered. Adding it to the DirecTV DVR would be straightforward since a lot of existing Series 3 code could be reused with very little change. However swivel search has one big flaw, and that is performance. remote button presses are handled on the head end server, not in the DVR.


I'm not saying the implementation was hard/broken .. I'm saying requiring a Internet connection to make it work could be the problem. I don't know that it is, but it sounds like something that could be a problem for DIRECTV (whereas TiVo wouldn't have a problem with it).



> TiVo is on record at TCF as saying that making changes to the old UI was getting too difficult and that redesigning from the ground up for the Premiere was needed. An integrated search is built into the UI.


I don't dispute this at all .. In fact, I suspect TiVo is looking back now saying .. Why didn't we do this with the DIRECTV box? The kicker of course would be re-integrating the access card stuff.

One other factor .. I'm sure that DIRECTV wanted much tighter security control than older TiVo's had. That one requirement alone may have taken many months for TiVo to perfect (assuming they did).


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> I do not disagree with this statement .. BUT .. We are 5 years removed from that. DIRECTV KNOWS that it sucked then, why would they choose to go that route again? I would think everyone involved (including TiVo) would want 1.0 of the new DIRECTiVo to be better than that. The bar is simply higher now.


The choice to not go to newer hardware, premiere based hardware, means that an integrated search has to use the old UI which means it is going to be a 1.0. TiVo did integrated search on Flash, they can't use that here, it is a re-invention of the wheel. I don't know why they chose to go that route, but between the two of them, it appears they did.



> This is where I think you and I will simply disagree. I'm sure TiVo thinks they're done, but they could always pull the "it's DIRECTV's fault" card and yank the Patent Rights back putting DIRECTV in a precarious position. TiVo must be at least acknowledging that things are not delayed because of DIRECTV (at this point).


I think we are talking about different things now. I was talking about adding streaming MRV, not UI performance with integrated search. If the issue is the latter, then TiVo needs to work to fix it. They may have submitted it before it was ready enough for DirecTV, but that would indicate that expections differed and weren't nailed down well enough beforehand. The fact that TiVo is not blaming DirecTV could support your point, or simply indicate that subcontractors should treat there customers well. Angry customers wanting this box want to blame someone, and it isn't reasonable to lay it ALL on TiVo for all the various reasons being speculated about.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I am inclined to think Directv has no need, or little need for access to Tivo's patents, to make their own DVRs, rather that Directv did not want the hassle of Tivo accusing them of "accessing" the Tivo patents even if Directv has no need for such access.


That would be a matter for the courts, yes? DIRECTV took a short cut through the negotiation. Had DIRECTV decided to fight instead of negotiate, then yeah, why the DIRECTV TiVo (they would be fighting after all in that scenario).

As for your "no need" .. It doesn't matter. DIRECTV very well may have been on strong legal footing and very well may have won, but instead of it being negotiated and done 3 years ago, they may still be fighting today with a lot of uncertainty surrounding DIRECTV's own DVR (we just don't know).

It was a smart move on DIRECTV's part to just close the book on it .. and AGAIN .. why I think it was the primary reason. The only sticking point may have been TiVo saying "Sure, but we want to develop a DIRECTV box again." DIRECTV then says , sure, if that's all that is blocking this, then have at it. DIRECTV gets the agreement (that they want) and DIRECTV gets any customer that TiVo can help send it's way. Win-Win .. Look up in all of the previous TiVo threads and you'll see that I say pretty much the same thing for the last 2.5 to 3 years. I haven't wavered on that.


----------



## Tom Robertson

CuriousMark said:


> They aren't all that outlandish. For sources you can look at the TiVo conference call notes and their responses when asked about this initiative. The feature set is under DirecTV control, that isn't to say DirecTV may wish it were different, but they really are the customer here and in control.
> 
> With that said, I am sure it is a two way street and the comanies are talking with each other and negotiating things here and there. Still I know that in the past features from TiVo stand alones were never added to DirecTV DVRs with TiVo service that DirecTV didn't want. Network is a good examle of that, copy MRV could have been added years ago but never was, and even today you know as well as I do that DirecTV will not want Amazon VOD added to the feature list. Clearly DirecTV is in control and Magazone is right about that sort of thing.
> 
> Now DirecTV may want streaming MRV added instead of taking and using fully developed and working copy MRV, but that one feature, or lack of it coming to light, does not mean DirecTV is not in control.


I'm still looking for a common nomenclature of the word "control".

DIRECTV does not control the features, that is a negotiation between the two companies. TiVo, in my opinion and understanding, was able to say "No" to features they would not put into their codeset.

DIRECTV does not control the resources that TiVo puts onto this project. DIRECTV did not control the original statement of work.

The original contract negotiation listed a set of features to be included. Since that part was redacted, we don't know what was included nor how it has evolved.

DIRECTV does control what QA the unit must pass. That, to me, is not control, that is gatekeeping.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> OK .. that just shows my lack of knowledge on the Search descriptions .. Thanks for the info as it is helpful to my understanding.
> 
> Now, TiVo could have just as easily made the decision to switch from Swivel to Integrated.


Based on TiVo statements at TCF about why they started over from scratch on the Premiere would tend to support the concept that TiVo would have had to be drug, kicking and screaming to integrate search into the old UI.



> Swivel may have gone slower if it was using remote servers (i.e. required an Internet connection to work) .. Not everyone is networked, so not everyone would be able to use Swivel Search if it required remote servers. I didn't know that, perhaps DIRECTV didn't know it at the time either (yeah, they should have, but I can see how that particular fact may have slipped).


Even an integrated search will require a network connection. It is just that the search client will now be thick and smart and deeply imbedded into the user interface.



> So, in that respect, if it is the change in Search methodology, then a failure to communicate (or really, understand the concept) could be in play. It may be that incorrect assumptions were made which resulted in this latest delay.


This is the area of potention miscommunication to which I was referring. Although there might also be similar misunderstandings in the streaming MRV world too. That old software architecture is at the root of the problem in my opinion.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Even an integrated search will require a network connection.


Why? If it's just integrating TV shows and VOD content, how is an Internet connection required?


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> Why? If it's just integrating TV shows and VOD content, how is an Internet connection required?


Agreed, DIRECTV sends guide data down continuously, TiVo could feed off of that.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not saying the implementation was hard/broken .. I'm saying requiring a Internet connection to make it work could be the problem. I don't know that it is, but it sounds like something that could be a problem for DIRECTV (whereas TiVo wouldn't have a problem with it).


I am far enough behind in reading and responding to you, that we are now kind of repeating ourselves. Sorry about that, but I don't tend to keep up over the weekend.

I am thinking that since DirecTV VOD requires internet, search requiring internet to see the internet available VOD search results is probably not that unreasonable. Search would have to be smart enough to not go to the internet when it is not available and only search among information coming down off the feed. That is an interesting wrinkle, and could mean that those boxes without internet connections wouldn't get art and such, but we don't know if the internet version would get art either.



> I don't dispute this at all .. In fact, I suspect TiVo is looking back now saying .. Why didn't we do this with the DIRECTV box? The kicker of course would be re-integrating the access card stuff.
> 
> One other factor .. I'm sure that DIRECTV wanted much tighter security control than older TiVo's had. That one requirement alone may have taken many months for TiVo to perfect (assuming they did).


Yup. Timing. Had this deal been cut after the premiere came out, it might have been much different. Or had TiVo and DirecTV then decided to bite the bullet and have TiVo develop for the HR24 or a later box. That is all water under the bridge. All the good stuff just can't be crammed into TiVo's old architecture on an old architecture box.

I am clueless on the security front. I suspect it is less of a problem, but who knows.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> I am thinking that since DirecTV VOD requires internet, search requiring internet to see the internet available VOD search results is probably not that unreasonable.


Ah, but DirecTV VOD *doesn't* require Internet. Several of the most popular titles are pushed to the DVR via satellite, no Internet connection needed. So I'm sure DirecTV would still want VOD search to work without an Internet connection.


CuriousMark said:


> I am clueless on the security front. I suspect it is less of a problem, but who knows.


On their new platform, yes. On the old platform, the security was useless. There is no way DirecTV will allow that to happen again.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> I'm still looking for a common nomenclature of the word "control".
> 
> DIRECTV does not control the features, that is a negotiation between the two companies. TiVo, in my opinion and understanding, was able to say "No" to features they would not put into their codeset.
> 
> DIRECTV does not control the resources that TiVo puts onto this project. DIRECTV did not control the original statement of work.
> 
> The original contract negotiation listed a set of features to be included. Since that part was redacted, we don't know what was included nor how it has evolved.
> 
> DIRECTV does control what QA the unit must pass. That, to me, is not control, that is gatekeeping.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


According to Rogers, Directv made the feature list, not Tivo, according to Mark, the most recent feature list had at least one change made on the search function, which he speculated might have caused delay.

To me that is a good level of control, which shouldn't surprise anyone, after all, Directv is the client, it pays Tivo to do the work, it ought to have some good control.


----------



## CuriousMark

I rewrote my post you are quoting after seeing it was badly written, but before getting to this reply.



Tom Robertson said:


> I'm still looking for a common nomenclature of the word "control".


Who decides what features to include or not. DirecTV is the customer, TiVo is designing the box to make them happy. Sure, I am sure there is negotiation about that. If DirecTV wants a feature that TiVo says would cost two arms and a leg, they may decide not to go there, but the final decision would be DirecTV's, they could pay the two arms and a leg if they wished to. There is always back and forth in contracts, but at the end of the day, one partner is in charge and makes the final call. That would be DirecTV.



> DIRECTV does not control the features, that is a negotiation between the two companies. TiVo, in my opinion and understanding, was able to say "No" to features they would not put into their codeset.


I suspect it is more like a "this feature would be very expensive and might not work on this hardware, are you sure you really want it?" Still the final say would be DirecTV's. If DirecTV wants a feature TiVo has difficulty with, the likely outcome would be lots of cost and lengthy delays. If that is the case, perhaps the better decision would have been "no", but it would not have been TiVo making the final decision. DirecTV did not take on copy MRV, TiVo ToGo, web videos, Amazon VOD, and for all we know TiVo may have suggested all of them at one time or another, say 5 years ago. Clearly TiVo did not control those features, if they had free reign, they could have included them at the same time as they put them into the standalone world, or shortly thereafter. It didn't happen.



> DIRECTV does not control the resources that TiVo puts onto this project. DIRECTV did not control the original statement of work.


The resources are TiVo's responsibility and I believe TiVo did not provide as many as were needed. I agree with you there.

DirecTV and TiVo almost certainly negotiated that statement of work, TiVo provided it, but in the end after negotiations the final approval of it must have been DirecTV's. Doing it this way lets the vendor put his best foot forward offering all his best abilities. Kind of like a cafeteria menu. The final version was probably whittled down from that. I have no idea if that was the case, but it certainly is typical in these kinds of customer / vendor relationships.



> The original contract negotiation listed a set of features to be included. Since that part was redacted, we don't know what was included nor how it has evolved.


So true. We do know that the published list on the DirecTV FAQ page is all we have to go on beyond some initial press releases. They are a far cry from the actual contract. I do believe the change from Swivel search to Integrated search probably has a contractual basis somewhere. I can't see a PR flack doing that on his own, being wrong and not having it get corrected. It hasn't been corrected, so I believe it was correct to begin with.



> DIRECTV does control what QA the unit must pass. That, to me, is not control, that is gatekeeping.


To me gatekeeping is a form of control. I see where you are coming from on that, but think I will simply respectfully disagree on that one.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Why? If it's just integrating TV shows and VOD content, how is an Internet connection required?


Sorry, I explained further down. I suppose it does not if internet delivered VOD is excluded. I just don't think that exclusion is the case. I think DTV wants to sell DirecTV Cinema through this box and that requires internet, doesn't it? If the delivery requires internet, then search that provides these as hits, certainly could also require internet. Search that only sees downlink content wouldn't. Perhaps even search that provides results for internet delivered content wouldn't need an internet connection if the results are already on the downlink and stored on the box. Hard to say which way it works. What does an HR22 do?


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Ah, but DirecTV VOD *doesn't* require Internet. Several of the most popular titles are pushed to the DVR via satellite, no Internet connection needed. So I'm sure DirecTV would still want VOD search to work without an Internet connection.


Agreed. However, if this true, why do I need a cinema connection kit? Obviously some content is delivered via internet. I would think thenew DirecTV TiVo would be expected to be able to access that same content. If that is the case, I can see some portion of search working that way too, but you are right it may not be necessary at all.



> On the old platform, the security was useless. There is no way DirecTV will allow that to happen again.


Of course. I believe the HR22 has a security chip, so it should be very doable.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Perhaps even search that provides results for internet delivered content wouldn't need an internet connection if the results are already on the downlink and stored on the box. Hard to say which way it works. What does an HR22 do?


All VOD metadata is received via satellite.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> I believe the HR22 has a security chip, so it should be very doable.


The HR2x security works very differently from the way Tivo handled security on their old platform. So getting it to work with this new system is probably another development hurdle they've had to jump over.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> All VOD metadata is received via satellite.


Does that data include cover art and IMBD information on cast, crew and such?

TiVo's integrated search on the Premiere provides all of that and it would be nice addition for DirecTV if the HRs don't provide that now.

TiVo's swivel search also provided most of that. You could search a movie, see an actor, click on him and get his movie list, click on a different movie by that actor and schedule or download it on the spot. Integrated search also does this, but adds things like cover art and such.

If not, then perhaps the search will provide different levels of detail depending on whether internet is available or not. Just guessing here, we will have to see how it comes out and whether it will really require an internet connection or not.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Does that data include cover art and IMBD information on cast, crew and such?


It includes everything. Only the VOD content itself is downloaded over the Internet, if it's not already on the hard drive. All of the associated data, including the extended data for TV shows (posters, cast & crew, CommonSense parental info, etc...) is downloaded via satellite.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> The HR2x security works very differently from the way Tivo handled security on their old platform. So getting it to work with this new system is probably another development hurdle they've had to jump over.


I suppose it depends on what you mean by hacking and old platform. There are many variations of each, so it is hard to know how to respond to your comment, it is just too general.

TiVo series 1 units were essentially open and hackable. I think the gxcbot is an example of a DTV version of a series 1. All series 2 and higher, have a security chip on the motherboard that would have to be removed and replace to hack the unit. I believe the HR10s fall into this category, but could be wrong.

Beyond that, and really a different topic is TiVo ToGo hacking where a DRMed file once pulled off the box can be decrypted. Simply disallowing TiVo ToGo would prevent that.

Actually the most popular hacking consists of replacing the hard drive with a larger capacity unit. I think that is even possible with DirecTV DVRs.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> It includes everything. Only the VOD content itself is downloaded over the Internet, if it's not already on the hard drive. All of the associated data, including the extended data for TV shows (posters, cast & crew, CommonSense parental info, etc...) is downloaded via satellite.


Very cool.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Actually the most popular hacking consists of replacing the hard drive with a larger capacity unit. I think that is even possible with DirecTV DVRs.


It's actually much easier with DirecTV DVRs, because the hard drive doesn't store the software. So if you're not worried about losing anything on the old drive, it's just a straight swap. And eSATA makes it easier still.


----------



## Tom Robertson

CuriousMark said:


> I suppose it depends on what you mean by hacking and old platform. There are many variations of each, so it is hard to know how to respond to your comment, it is just too general.
> 
> TiVo series 1 units were essentially open and hackable. I think the gxcbot is an example of a DTV version of a series 1. All series 2 and higher, have a security chip on the motherboard that would have to be removed and replace to hack the unit. I believe the HR10s fall into this category, but could be wrong.
> 
> Beyond that, and really a different topic is TiVo ToGo hacking where a DRMed file once pulled off the box can be decrypted. Simply disallowing TiVo ToGo would prevent that.
> 
> Actually the most popular hacking consists of replacing the hard drive with a larger capacity unit. I think that is even possible with DirecTV DVRs.


Generally upgrading the hard disk is not considered hacking if that is all that is accomplished, though it is a fine line distinction.

To me, gaining access to the software to then add or change what the unit does is hacking. There are tons of such hacks for TiVo series 2 units (including the HR10s) giving the hacker many feature or abilities not originally built into the system.

Next higher up are hacks that enable features, such as the TiVo MRV, for which the hacker did not pay for.

Moving up the scale of hack badness, hacks that break, the DRM chain, allowing free copying of materials is next, in my opinion; and were also available on the Series 2.

The baddest, from an MSO perspective would be hacks that enabled unauthorized video content to be shown. Thankfully that is completely controlled by the access hard.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

I am sure Directv's minimum marketing obligations will be better than this one, if the box ever gets released:

http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com...rvice-if-you-can-get-it/?partner=yahoofinance


----------



## CuriousMark

Tom Robertson said:


> To me, gaining access to the software to then add or change what the unit does is hacking. There are tons of such hacks for TiVo series 2 units (including the HR10s) giving the hacker many feature or abilities not originally built into the system.


These hacks require a chip be replaced on the motherboard with one that has been "compromised" I suspect that is even possible with current DirecTV hardware, though not done due primarily to the leased nature of the boxes.



> Next higher up are hacks that enable features, such as the TiVo MRV, for which the hacker did not pay for.


To me this is the same category as above, a chip needs to be replaced to make it work.



> Moving up the scale of hack badness, hacks that break, the DRM chain, allowing free copying of materials is next, in my opinion; and were also available on the Series 2.


Actually this is what I called TiVoToGo hacking and applies to series 2, series 3 and the Premiere. If the material is not allowed off the box at all, DTV style, it cannot happen.

If the card were used instead of an onboard chip, or in conjuntion with an on board chip it would be pretty secure.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> These hacks require a chip be replaced on the motherboard with one that has been "compromised"


Not true. Back when I had a Series2 DirecTivo, I hacked the hell out of it without touching any chips.


CuriousMark said:


> I suspect that is even possible with current DirecTV hardware, though not done due primarily to the leased nature of the boxes.


It's not possible due to major architectural differences, not the fact that the boxes are leased.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Not true. Back when I had a Series2 DirecTivo, I hacked the hell out of it without touching any chips.
> 
> It's not possible due to major architectural differences, not the fact that the boxes are leased.


Perhaps I am wrong about the series, or DirecTiVo S2s didn't have or use it, but I think the security chip IS a major architectural difference. As I pointed out before I have no experience with DirecTiVo boxes personally, though I do have an S2 standalone.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Perhaps I am wrong about the series, or DirecTiVo S2s didn't have or use it, but I think the security chip IS a major architectural difference.


The main difference I was referring to between Tivos (old or new) and the HR2x is the fact that the HR2x software is stored on an EEPROM, while Tivo's software is stored on the hard drive. That fact alone makes the HR2x significantly harder to hack, and is a huge reason why the HR2x hasn't been hacked to this day.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> Not true. Back when I had a Series2 DirecTivo, I hacked the hell out of it without touching any chips.
> 
> It's not possible due to major architectural differences, not the fact that the boxes are leased.


Exactly. Did not need to remove a chip, the hacks attacked the software to bypass the chip.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> The main difference I was referring to between Tivos (old or new) and the HR2x is the fact that the HR2x software is stored on an EEPROM, while Tivo's software is stored on the hard drive. That fact alone makes the HR2x significantly harder to hack, and is a huge reason why the HR2x hasn't been hacked to this day.


Interesting. The NAS boxes I have hacked had their firmware in EEPROM or FLASH ROM and I didn't find that a serious impediment. But none of those boxes stored an encrypted hash of every executable or critical file to prevent tampering.  I would guess that DirecTV does both.


----------



## CuriousMark

Tom Robertson said:


> Exactly. Did not need to remove a chip, the hacks attacked the software to bypass the chip.


I don't believe that is possible anymore.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Interesting. The NAS boxes I have hacked had their firmware in EEPROM or FLASH ROM and I didn't find that a serious impediment. But none of those boxes stored an encrypted hash of every executable or critical file to prevent tampering.  I would guess that DirecTV does both.


Well, they probably had a simple customer-accessible method for firmware upgrades, and a rather passive attitude towards hacking. DirecTV has neither of those.


----------



## Tom Robertson

<Moderator note>
Hi guys, we're encroaching on an important line about discussing how to protect from hacking or how to hack systems with various types of protections.

We're doing ok... but let's steer away from that aspect in detail.

We know that at DIRECTV, security is a very high priority. TiVo may have already found ways to meet the requirements. If so, that would be great!

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

"jacmyoung" said:


> Common sense tells me, a company, if smart, would not have agreed to have another company develop a product that lacks features, yet commands a much higher fee, thinking that they can simply pass the cost on to its customers, and hoping that product would be a success.


Luckily, there are many TiVo devotees that will have nothing to do with any dvr that isn't a TiVo, even when other much better products are readily available now...

So I guess maybe DirecTV is smart for deciding to recognize these customers, and offer them another choice, at little to no real cost to them, and maybe even get a little more money out of those customers.

Taking care of their customers and making money off of it, yeah, I think that makes them a smart company that is using some common sense.


----------



## inkahauts

"CuriousMark" said:


> He is basing that off of something I said. While streaming MRV is certainly not easy to implent, my point was that it was possibly easier than integrating TiVo Search into the old UI. I consider it to be a matter of degree. Not that I actually know, I don't. This is raw speculation that got amplified beyond recognition.


Ok that makes sense, matter of degree in a comparison, as you point out, has nothing to do with it being easy or hard.. Once again, someone's post was mutilated that altered the entire meaning, but it's all good now, no worries...


----------



## inkahauts

"CuriousMark" said:


> I don't know how a marketing guy could have made that as a mistake, given it didn't exist in the first iteration, and wouldn't have been added in the second unless that is the mistake. Saying they are offering integrated search and then delivering swivel search would be noticed immediately and not in a good way.


Haha.. You don't know marketing people. I'd say their is a 50/50 chance this is all due to a marketing guy at diuretic thinking that TiVo simply started marketing their search function with a newer term, and decided to call it that..


----------



## inkahauts

"CuriousMark" said:


> That simply doesn't make sense at all to me. Swivel search was TiVo's first iteration of search and it was already delivered. Adding it to the DirecTV DVR would be straightforward since a lot of existing Series 3 code could be reused with very little change. However swivel search has one big flaw, and that is performance. remote button presses are handled on the head end server, not in the DVR.
> 
> TiVo is on record at TCF as saying that making changes to the old UI was getting too difficult and that redesigning from the ground up for the Premiere was needed. An integrated search is built into the UI.


What search was on the original hd DirecTV TiVo? It was not swivel if it relied on remote servers... And I see no way DirecTV would ever allow search to rely on a remote server... I to wonder if DirecTV simply thought swivel search was simply a more advanced search than what was on the hr10250, rather than a remote search like you say it is. That could have caused a lot of problems.

We all know that this could not be the cause of the delays at all.. Heck, the first hd DirecTV TiVo was late by over 9 months or more because TiVo had such a hard time integrating the ota guide with the DirecTV guide data.. Maybe, since the way diretcv has completely changed how that works, that is causing a lot of issues... You never know, it also caused a year plus delay in the very first hd receiver from DirecTV with ota guide integrated into the DirecTV guide... So guide has been very well known to cause major issues all by itself, never mind searching though it.


----------



## inkahauts

Ops


----------



## inkahauts

"CuriousMark" said:


> Does that data include cover art and IMBD information on cast, crew and such?
> 
> TiVo's integrated search on the Premiere provides all of that and it would be nice addition for DirecTV if the HRs don't provide that now.
> 
> TiVo's swivel search also provided most of that. You could search a movie, see an actor, click on him and get his movie list, click on a different movie by that actor and schedule or download it on the spot. Integrated search also does this, but adds things like cover art and such.
> 
> If not, then perhaps the search will provide different levels of detail depending on whether internet is available or not. Just guessing here, we will have to see how it comes out and whether it will really require an internet connection or not.


Yep, not only does all that info come down from sat for diretcv hrs, but they also will do all the search functions the way you described them... They have full cast and crew info, and pics of them as well as show artwork...


----------



## jacmyoung

inkahauts said:


> Luckily, there are many TiVo devotees that will have nothing to do with any dvr that isn't a TiVo, even when other much better products are readily available now...
> 
> So I guess maybe DirecTV is smart for deciding to recognize these customers, and offer them another choice, at little to no real cost to them, and maybe even get a little more money out of those customers.
> 
> Taking care of their customers and making money off of it, yeah, I think that makes them a smart company that is using some common sense.


Good theory if only it can be backed up by Directv's own action. While signing the agreement, Directv was in a major move to convert its DirecTiVo subs to its own DVRs, with great success, which was about the only success that has some to do with DirecTiVo for now

As far as the change in the feature list, as I said it was a tech Q/A website, not a marketing oriented site such as the ordering page, where you may say some marketing guy was too eager to post the $99 ordering price. The tech Q/A website is likely managed by some tech guy. In any event if that ordering mistake was any good indication, it demonstrated that Directv tends to quickly fix a mistake if it is a mistake, which is not the case with the change on the feature list.

Regardless though, Rogers was quoted as saying Directv was responsible for the feature list, not TiVo. Basically in several occasions he at least implied the delay had to do with the changing features requested by Directv. Having said that, we know too well we should take what he said with a grain of salt, but what he said, should be as good as whatever other inside sources, whether from Directv, or from TiVo.


----------



## CuriousMark

inkahauts said:


> What search was on the original hd DirecTV TiVo? It was not swivel if it relied on remote servers... And I see no way DirecTV would ever allow search to rely on a remote server... I to wonder if DirecTV simply thought swivel search was simply a more advanced search than what was on the hr10250, rather than a remote search like you say it is. That could have caused a lot of problems.


Simple guide search of what was on the box and in the guide. Information on cast, crew, and other IMDB style info was not linkable, you couldn't say click on an actor and get an instant list of every movie he was in. Swivel and the more modern integrated search add those features. I doubt we will ever know what DirecTV thought, but boxes with swivel search and a beta of the flash based integrated search were available on real hardware or at TiVo at the time, so there is no reason to think DirecTV could not have been educated on it if they wished to.



> We all know that this could not be the cause of the delays at all.. Heck, the first hd DirecTV TiVo was late by over 9 months or more because TiVo had such a hard time integrating the ota guide with the DirecTV guide data.. Maybe, since the way diretcv has completely changed how that works, that is causing a lot of issues... You never know, it also caused a year plus delay in the very first hd receiver from DirecTV with ota guide integrated into the DirecTV guide... So guide has been very well known to cause major issues all by itself, never mind searching though it.


I could see that factoring in also.


----------



## CuriousMark

inkahauts said:


> Yep, not only does all that info come down from sat for diretcv hrs, but they also will do all the search functions the way you described them... They have full cast and crew info, and pics of them as well as show artwork...


OK, if that can then be searched on to get deeper information then everything needed will be on the box. I suspect using the existing guide for this might require more than a little extra indexing for the swivel function, but that could be done in the background.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Good theory if only it can be backed up by Directv's own action. While signing the agreement, Directv was in a major move to convert its DirecTiVo subs to its own DVRs, with great success, which was about the only success that has some to do with DirecTiVo for now


Revisionist history? DIRECTV was trying to get people upgrade to MPEG4-HD .. TiVo couldn't do that, so by default folks were leaving TiVo, but many hadn't left yet and welcomed the 2008 announcement with open arms. :scratchin:



> As far as the change in the feature list, as I said it was a tech Q/A website, not a marketing oriented site such as the ordering page, where you may say some marketing guy was too eager to post the $99 ordering price. The tech Q/A website is likely managed by some tech guy. In any event if that ordering mistake was any good indication, it demonstrated that Directv tends to quickly fix a mistake if it is a mistake, which is not the case with the change on the feature list.


We're talking about one feature here. We don't know when it changed, why it change and if it being changed even means anything. Perhaps the Marketing Guy got it wrong in 2008. Mark said "Integrated" search wasn't around before 2008. Personally, I would have called the search on the original TiVo integrated search, but that was "what it was" and not "marketing speak" for what it was. I guess Integrated Search adds the Movie Posters, Cast info, etc. that wasn't available in the earlier models (HR10-250 for example). Still, the code to produce those menus was relatively intact in the original code base. So, it is entirely possible that the plan all along was to have a similar (yet improved) search tool as was originally there and the Press Release stated "Swivel Search" because that was the hot new buzzword at the time. My point being. We don't know .. To use this change as evidence of anything doesn't make sense, IMHO. Remember, Rogers also said that the new TiVo will have the same classic interface (which had an integrated search capability).



> Regardless though, Rogers was quoted as saying Directv was responsible for the feature list, not TiVo. Basically in several occasions he at least implied the delay had to do with the changing features requested by Directv. Having said that, we know too well we should take what he said with a grain of salt, but what he said, should be as good as whatever other inside sources, whether from Directv, or from TiVo.


Since there are "several" occasions where Rogers implied that the delay was because DIRECTV changed the features it was requesting, you could at least reference one or two of them. Otherwise it sounds like you're making something up just to prove yourself right.

Which, oh yeah, maybe you are right .. since we don't really know .. You are free to believe that the delay is DIRECTV's fault. You might as well go ahead and say it as well.

Again, I disagree. Knowing what I know (from multiple sources, BTW) .. The delay rests solely with TiVo's inability to be fast. Large projects like this always have changes along the way. That can be expected and accounted for. I refuse to believe that DIRECTV is putting the brakes on this product. In fact, I'm hearing quite the contrary, that DIRECTV wants to get this product out of the door and on the market. The problem right now is getting it through final QA. It should have been on the market 2 months ago, yet here we are. I no longer expect it 2 months from now.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I've kinda looked at the release of the announced (years ago) new HD Tivobox DVR somewhat like the Lord of the Rings movie series...which also took years to make...

The other common denominator might be that the final episode took 2 parts for the conclusion over (yet more) time....

So maybe...just maybe...it will see the light of day in 2011.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> OK, if that can then be searched on to get deeper information then everything needed will be on the box. I suspect using the existing guide for this might require more than a little extra indexing for the swivel function, but that could be done in the background.


Yeah, this will be the hardest change .. The Guide Data has integrated a lot of new information since TiVo last visited it. The new TiVo could (and hopefully does) extract that additional data. Posters and cast/crew information is on a separate payload so it's not available instantly after startup (unless it is cached). So after it is started, TiVo would need to watch for the payload and add any new information to their database on the disk.

Also, the HR2x has a third tuner that is used only for guide data. TiVo may (or may not) have converted to using this pipe to extract information. That is another area of potential delay and something that TiVo may not have been aware of at the time of the signing in 2008.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So maybe...just maybe...it will see the light of day in 2011.


Cross all your fingers, your arms, your legs, your toes and your eyes and maybe, just maybe 2011 will come true.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Cross all your fingers, your arms, your legs, your toes and your eyes and maybe, just maybe 2011 will come true.


...just don't cross the streams....


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...just don't cross the streams....


That would be bad.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> We're talking about one feature here. We don't know when it changed, why it change and if it being changed even means anything. Perhaps the Marketing Guy got it wrong in 2008. Mark said "Integrated" search wasn't around before 2008. Personally, I would have called the search on the original TiVo integrated search, but that was "what it was" and not "marketing speak" for what it was.


Terminology can be a b****h. You are correct that the existing guide data search feature of the HR10-250 is "integrated". Perhaps that is why TiVo tends to call their new search features "advanced search". So perhaps I should have been saying "integrated advanced search" all along.



> I guess Integrated Search adds the Movie Posters, Cast info, etc. that wasn't available in the earlier models (HR10-250 for example). Still, the code to produce those menus was relatively intact in the original code base. So, it is entirely possible that the plan all along was to have a similar (yet improved) search tool as was originally there and the Press Release stated "Swivel Search" because that was the hot new buzzword at the time. My point being. We don't know .. To use this change as evidence of anything doesn't make sense, IMHO. Remember, Rogers also said that the new TiVo will have the same classic interface (which had an integrated search capability).


Swivel search was the first iteration of an advanced search feature. It also did the movie posters, cast and crew and allowed you to swivel on one result as a new search query that made discovery of interesting things you may not know you were looking for easy. Basically every item of cast and crew or art was a link that invoked a new search with that item as the query.

The menus for the existing search results screens don't support that kind of functionality. They display static lists. Making them active is what I think is hard work. Even keeeping it looking like the classic interface while doing this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, perhaps there was lack of understanding about this feature in both management teams.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> Also, the HR2x has a third tuner that is used only for guide data.


Very interesting!


----------



## Tom Robertson

CuriousMark said:


> ... perhaps there was lack of understanding about this feature in both management teams.


Thanks for all the details and history. Good stuff.

I think the quoted line can explain a great many things. And without there being "blame" for either company. Innocent misunderstandings happen at all levels. 

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

The "Advanced Search" feature from TiVo is very much like a similar feature on HR2x. So the information is definitely available in the stream from DIRECTV. It's just a matter of TiVo making that fully available on their platform. I suspect it's already done and (honestly), it may have never been in issue since - as you say, "Integrated Search" is simply the next iteration of "Swivel Search." In other words, the final implementation on the DIRECTV TiVo may be exactly the same thing as what was planned originally, but the advertised term was changed.

In fact, that actually sounds the most plausible based on your recent comments, Mark.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Thanks for all the details and history. Good stuff.
> 
> I think the quoted line can explain a great many things. And without there being "blame" for either company. Innocent misunderstandings happen at all levels.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


Of course there is no blame, I don't understand why Doug keeps saying I was blaming Directv for the delay. I don't blame anyone, no one seems to be bothered by the delay, well most people at least, when you are not bothered by it, there is no blame.

In fact I am glad there is such delay, a product from the start had little features, and cost a lot to use, with the main purpose, even as Doug himself admitted, was to avoid litigation. Such a product better be delayed as long as legally, and contractually possible.

If Directv pushes it out too soon and turns it into a ripoff by TiVo too fast, then we can start the blame game.

Having said that, Directv and TiVo certainly can benefit each other, if the fees are reasonable and features are attractive. The opportunity is not lost.


----------



## Shades228

jacmyoung said:


> Having said that, Directv and TiVo certainly can benefit each other, if the fees are reasonable and features are attractive. *The opportunity is not lost*.


It's good to see in this economy you can still afford to smoke the good stuff.


----------



## sigma1914

I hope the new DirecTV Tivo is better than the Tivo Premier.

I got a brand new Premier for $50 and added to my cable subscription (still a DirecTV sub) yesterday. After 24 hours, I've already had a freeze requiring a power cord pull. :nono:


----------



## Davenlr

sigma1914 said:


> I hope the new DirecTV Tivo is better than the Tivo Premier.
> 
> I got a brand new Premier for $50 and added to my cable subscription (still a DirecTV sub) yesterday. After 24 hours, I've already had a freeze requiring a power cord pull. :nono:


Seems to be about a 50/50 ratio of people with that problem. Im in the lucky 50% that hasnt rebooted mine in months. Check your internet connection if used. That has a lot to do with others Premiers doing that.


----------



## sigma1914

Davenlr said:


> Seems to be about a 50/50 ratio of people with that problem. Im in the lucky 50% that hasnt rebooted mine in months. Check your internet connection if used. That has a lot to do with others Premiers doing that.


Anything in particular to check? After the reboot, it updated to add Hulu.


----------



## Davenlr

sigma1914 said:


> Anything in particular to check? After the reboot, it updated to add Hulu.


Oh, ok. Thats just a bug. It always locks up when it gets a new software version. You should be ok now. If it still freezes up, and doesnt unfreeze in 5 minutes or so, then you have the 50/50 freeze bug. Some have fixed it by unplugging from the network (which is its biggest plus in my opinion), and others by different means. Its kind of hit or miss. Havent really seen a concrete cause/fix posted.

Here is one of the threads about it: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=456559


----------



## dsw2112

Davenlr said:


> Oh, ok. Thats just a bug. It always locks up when it gets a new software version.


That's an interesting "feature." Wonder if the new DirecTivo will come with that...


----------



## ejjames

dsw2112 said:


> That's an interesting "feature." Wonder if the new DirecTivo will come with that...


By the time the new directivo comes out, it should have the standard "holographic imaging" and "laser output" that will be standard on all new equipment in 2021.


----------



## I WANT MORE

sigma1914 said:


> I hope the new DirecTV Tivo is better than the Tivo Premier.
> 
> I got a brand new Premier for $50 and added to my cable subscription (still a DirecTV sub) yesterday. After 24 hours, I've already had a freeze requiring a power cord pull. :nono:


I have a Premier, PremierXL, and an HDXL and have had 0 issues. Relax and enjoy the splendor of TIVO..............


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...just don't cross the streams....





Doug Brott said:


> That would be bad.


Important safety tip. Thanks, hdtvfan. 

Mike


----------



## I WANT MORE

Mike Bertelson said:


> Important safety tip. Thanks, hdtvfan.
> 
> *Has everyone updated their favorites lists yet?*
> Mike


Uh, NO. Wake me up when they add something I WANT.


----------



## wingrider01

sigma1914 said:


> I hope the new DirecTV Tivo is better than the Tivo Premier.
> 
> I got a brand new Premier for $50 and added to my cable subscription (still a DirecTV sub) yesterday. After 24 hours, I've already had a freeze requiring a power cord pull. :nono:


depends do you consider the HR10-250 better then the Premier? Seem to rememebr that it is basicly that with MPEG4 capabiliites and a few minor enhancements


----------



## Doug Brott

wingrider01 said:


> depends do you consider the HR10-250 better then the Premier? Seem to rememebr that it is basicly that with MPEG4 capabiliites and a few minor enhancements


Correct, it will not be the premier in any way shape or form.


----------



## sigma1914

wingrider01 said:


> depends do you consider the HR10-250 better then the Premier? Seem to rememebr that it is basicly that with MPEG4 capabiliites and a few minor enhancements





Doug Brott said:


> Correct, it will not be the premier in any way shape or form.


I don't even care for the "HD" UI, because most stuff, including the guide is still the old style. Everything seems half-a$$ed. I do like the old guide to see what's on all day for a channel. I know the HR workaround, but like it's accessibility on Tivo.


----------



## jacmyoung

sigma1914 said:


> I hope the new DirecTV Tivo is better than the Tivo Premier.


It is already better in one respect, the naming of the box. Add a "T" in front of the "HR22" and be done with it. TiVo's naming is something no one has been able to follow, such as this "Premiere" name, it implies the first showing and not necessarily the best or even better, as compared to the term "Premier", implying the highest status or quality, which TiVo did not suggest so


----------



## HoTat2

Oh well ...

For those interested anyway and have (or acquire  ) the means to see it. The new HD DTIVO is being being demonstrated by Ray Edwards at satinstaltraining.com in their newly posted "Must See" training video for August.

Not much to report from the video though beyond what's already been posted here. It's definitely an HR22 platform with the TIVO logo in the upper right conner. It comes with a new larger TIVO peanut remote with a glossy front finish. The UI appears to be the traditional one and not in HD.

And Edward's was very specific to point out that while it supports "most" DIRECTV features on the HR series, it DOES NOT support MRV. Though it is network capable for what I assume is at least VOD.

Maybe OK for TIVO-holics, but it really looks disappointing to me, nor do I understand why it took TIVO this long to produce such a limited capability unit like this. :icon_lame


----------



## tonyd79

"HoTat2" said:


> Maybe OK for TIVO-holics, but it really looks disappointing to me, nor do I understand why it took TIVO this long to produce such a limited capability unit like this. :icon_lame


Guess they were busy making a TiVo interface for a non-recording TV.


----------



## dem372

Maybe I am naive, but I assume this answers the question about whether or not it will ever be available? Am I wrong in assuming they wouldn't train installers on something that was not very close to release?


----------



## Doug Brott

dem372 said:


> Maybe I am naive, but I assume this answers the question about whether or not it will ever be available? Am I wrong in assuming they wouldn't train installers on something that was not very close to release?


There have been some setbacks this year. I don't know what the nature of those setbacks are. It should have already been on the market at this point. Last I checked, there is a slim hope of 2011, but it very well could be 2012 before we see this.

As for will it ever be available? I still think so and have maintained that since it was first announced. Others here have thrown in the towel and decided otherwise. Either way, we're all speculating on that point.


----------



## Jeremy W

dem372 said:


> Maybe I am naive, but I assume this answers the question about whether or not it will ever be available? Am I wrong in assuming they wouldn't train installers on something that was not very close to release?


Just to elaborate a bit on Doug's point: the only thing that answers the question of the THR22 being available is the THR22 actually being available. With the way this project has gone, they could announce it'll be available tomorrow and there'd still be a chance it would never see the light of day.


----------



## LI-SVT

I watched the video. Does anyone else think the screen images look simulated?


----------



## RobertE

I do find it interesting that the mfg date on the box shown was 5/25/10. So, the hardware has been pretty much ready. Software, not so much.


----------



## Doug Brott

Nice video .. Pretty much what I've been saying all along. Same as the old TiVo with MPEG4 support added ..


----------



## Jeremy W

LI-SVT said:


> I watched the video. Does anyone else think the screen images look simulated?


Nope.


----------



## gcd0865

Will this new HD TiVo receiver have a built-in OTA tuner not limited to 2 markets/zip codes, with channel scanning and/or manual channel add capability, and with guide data shown for all OTA channels received? If so, I might be interested.


----------



## HoTat2

gcd0865 said:


> Will this new HD TiVo receiver have a built-in OTA tuner not limited to 2 markets/zip codes, with channel scanning and/or manual channel add capability, and with guide data shown for all OTA channels received? If so, I might be interested.


Since it uses DIRECTV's HR22-100 as its hardware platform, it will not have built in OTA tuners.

I don't know whether it will be compatible with the AM21, but would assume so and that it will operate in the same manner as the HR series do.

So I sincerely doubt there will be any OTA channel scanning/manual add capability.


----------



## Doug Brott

The AM21 should work just fine with the TiVo .. I believe (though I'm not certain) that it will also work exactly the same way that it does on the HR10-250.


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> The AM21 should work just fine with the TiVo .. I believe (though I'm not certain) that it will also work exactly the same way that it does on the HR10-250.


Since the operation of the tuner (and thus the scanning feature) is controlled by software, there's no reason to believe that the AM21 will work any differently than the built-in tuner on the HR10-250 did.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The only question is when will TiVo support the AM21. I presume they will at some point and hopefully on the first round.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> The only question is when will TiVo support the AM21. I presume they will at some point and hopefully on the first round.


I would think (and this is total conjecture) that the AM21 would be one of the easier things to support.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

You're right, total conjecture. But I'd tend to agree with you. At its heart the AM21 is fairly close to off-the-shelf technology.


----------



## CuriousMark

HoTat2 said:


> And Edward's was very specific to point out that while it supports "most" DIRECTV features on the HR series, it DOES NOT support MRV...
> 
> nor do I understand why it took TIVO this long to produce such a limited capability unit like this.


I have been posting on that for some time now. Thank you for the confirmation that it has "most" features. To me that means it supports the active channels that older TiVo units did not support and that would have been very difficult for TiVo to sledgehammer into that old interface. (supposedly the old UI is not divorced from the underlying code that implements each feature or screen like modern UIs are). Can you post the specifics of what exactly those "most" features are?


----------



## Richierich

I've stated from the GitGo that I personnally believe it is Vaporare and will never see the Light of Day!!!

It's Amazing how this Deadline keeps slipping!!!


----------



## sigma1914

richierich said:


> I've stated from the GitGo that I personnally believe it is Vaporare and will never see the Light of Day!!!
> 
> It's Amazing how this Deadline keeps slipping!!!


It's obviously not vaporware, but it still hasn't seen the light of day.


----------



## SledgeHammer

richierich said:


> I've stated from the GitGo that I personnally believe it is Vaporare and will never see the Light of Day!!!
> 
> It's Amazing how this Deadline keeps slipping!!!


I peruse this thread every couple of months. Can't believe people are still talking about this thing .

a) it IS vaporware
b) it will NEVER see the light of day
c) even if it is released, it will have about 70% of the functionality of the HR2x series and cost MORE per month -- who would pay more money for less features on outdated hardware?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

c) I agree with you. a) and b) I tend to think you're a little off base.


----------



## I WANT MORE

SledgeHammer said:


> I peruse this thread every couple of months. Can't believe people are still talking about this thing .
> 
> a) it IS vaporware
> b) it will NEVER see the light of day
> c) even if it is released, it will have about 70% of the functionality of the HR2x series and cost MORE per month --* who would pay more money *for less features on outdated hardware?


ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now release the damn thing.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> c) I agree with you. a) and b) I tend to think you're a little off base.


Well, lets see ...

* first "release date" for this year was April -- missed
* second "release date" for this year was June/July -- missed
* third "release date" for this year is November -- not there yet, but now we are hearing that it got pushed back to "early 2012".

Obviously its not vaporware in the sense where it doesn't exist. The software and hardware DO exist. We know that. Its just unbelievable that it can't be released if they actually wanted it to be released.

I've worked for enough software companies in my life that I know about the "final push" / "bug squashing" weeks / months where you are chained to your desk for long hours to get the thing out.

The ONLY way this thing has been delayed this long is because they are in the "hey dude... fix a bug or two out of the DTivo pool when you get a chance" mode which means the bugs never get fixed.


----------



## SaLance

Without giving too much away, I saw one in person that upper teir tech are being trained on


----------



## HoTat2

CuriousMark said:


> ... Can you post the specifics of what exactly those "most" features are?


Nope;

Edward's wasn't really specific in the training video beyond that the HD DTIVO is "coming soon" and will support "most features" currently available on the HR2X series.

Sans MRV of course ...


----------



## Hutchinshouse

No MRV support for the new TiVo unit. Bummer, no thanks.


----------



## newsposter

it better support more than 50 SP!


----------



## Jeremy W

newsposter said:


> it better support more than 50 SP!


There's absolutely no reason to think it won't.


----------



## Shades228

Jeremy W said:


> There's absolutely no reason to think it won't.


They should push the release date to 4/1 and then make a 50 SL limit. That would be worth the wait.


----------



## andunn27

Just FYI for everyone:

There is *not* just one box that Directv/Tivo is/or has been testing. There have been two different boxes so far that I personally know of.


----------



## am7crew

Am I the only one that cant find the video being discussed?


----------



## Doug Brott

andunn27 said:


> Just FYI for everyone:
> 
> There is *not* just one box that Directv/Tivo is/or has been testing. There have been two different boxes so far that I personally know of.


If you mean model .. Hard to say as there is only evidence of the -100 model. If you mean physical boxes .. I'm aware of a few myself although I haven't physically seen one.


----------



## Jeremy W

am7crew said:


> Am I the only one that cant find the video being discussed?


It's at satinstalltraining.com. You'll need a username and password to watch the videos, which can be obtained fairly easily.


----------



## Jon J

I was a tester for TiVo in the past. I just got an e-mail from them asking me to update my profile information. There must be something in the works. Unfortunately, I've only had DirecTV DVRs with TiVo and have retired all those. I guess I'll update anyway in hopes of getting selected to try out whatever they are currently working on.


----------



## newsposter

maybe since i still have an HDtivo subbed i can be a chosen one


----------



## newsposter

Shades228 said:


> They should push the release date to 4/1 and then make a 50 SL limit. That would be worth the wait.


isnt swearing against the TOS of this site?


----------



## jacmyoung

OK guys, we know by the end of this year we will see HDUI, mobile applications, the new media center, Pandora, PPV and Premium streaming... Do you see any of the above associated with a DirecTiVo, or are we just continue to pull the legs of a few diehard DirecTiVo users?


----------



## wingrider01

jacmyoung said:


> OK guys, we know by the end of this year we will see HDUI, mobile applications, the new media center, Pandora, PPV and Premium streaming... Do you see any of the above associated with a DirecTiVo, or are we just continue to pull the legs of a few diehard DirecTiVo users?


would guess that the best answer is nope, it has been documented that the first drop will be HR10-250 with MPEG4 capabilities, given the years it has taken to try and get even this to market, it will be 2050 before you see any of that.


----------



## jacmyoung

"wingrider01" said:


> would guess that the best answer is nope, it has been documented that the first drop will be HR10-250 with MPEG4 capabilities, given the years it has taken to try and get even this to market, it will be 2050 before you see any of that.


I know you said so tongue in cheek.

The agreement allows TiVo to cancel due to "non TiVo delay." It also means cancelling the no-sue agreement. DirecTV can say the delay has been a "TiVo delay" but not forever. At some point a "non TiVo delay" becomes obvious.

But then what can TiVo do? Cancel and sue DirecTV? They had to call a truce with ReplayTV back then, today with DirecTV's resources and its ownership of the ReplayTV's IPs, I don't see it happening.

I think when DirecTV has neglected to mention the word "TiVo" for the 10th consecutive time during their latest quarterly conference call, people should have begun to get a hint of it


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> OK guys, we know by the end of this year we will see HDUI, mobile applications, the new media center, Pandora, PPV and Premium streaming... Do you see any of the above associated with a DirecTiVo, or are we just continue to pull the legs of a few diehard DirecTiVo users?


I sincerely, sincerely doubt any of those features will be on the DIRECTV Tivo.


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> I think when DirecTV has neglected to mention the word "TiVo" for the 10th consecutive time during their latest quarterly conference call, people should have begun to get a hint of it


Seeing as chances of it coming out in 2011 are now slim to none and it has been pushed back to 1st quarter of 2012 (for now) and Tivo is setting itself up for sale, and its 3 yrs late in general, the chances of it actually coming out have long ago faded.
[redacted]


----------



## wingrider01

jacmyoung said:


> I know you said so tongue in cheek.
> 
> The agreement allows TiVo to cancel due to "non TiVo delay." It also means cancelling the no-sue agreement. DirecTV can say the delay has been a "TiVo delay" but not forever. At some point a "non TiVo delay" becomes obvious.
> 
> But then what can TiVo do? Cancel and sue DirecTV? They had to call a truce with ReplayTV back then, today with DirecTV's resources and its ownership of the ReplayTV's IPs, I don't see it happening.
> 
> I think when DirecTV has neglected to mention the word "TiVo" for the 10th consecutive time during their latest quarterly conference call, people should have begun to get a hint of it


I did?


----------



## Manctech

Anyone else see the new Tivo receivers? They are basically HR-21's but with the TiVO software on them. Was in the August Tech Video! It will not be MRV compatible though.

Seems like it has the exact same features as the normal DVR's but with the TiVo menus. (Thumbs up/down, slow mow button, etc)


----------



## ndole

Manctech said:


> Anyone else see the new Tivo receivers? They are basically HR-21's but with the TiVO software on them. Was in the August Tech Video! It will not be MRV compatible though.
> 
> Seems like it has the exact same features as the normal DVR's but with the TiVo menus. (Thumbs up/down, slow mow button, etc)


Old Ray looked like he was pissed that he was forced to present it.


----------



## dsw2112

Manctech said:


> Anyone else see the new Tivo receivers? They are basically HR-2*2*'s but with the TiVO software on them. Was in the August Tech Video! It will not be MRV compatible though.
> 
> Seems like it has the exact same features as the normal DVR's but with the TiVo menus. (Thumbs up/down, slow mow button, etc)


Fixed your post


----------



## SaLance

ndole_mbnd said:


> Old Ray looked like he was pissed that he was forced to present it.


!rolling


----------



## Brubear

"Manctech" said:


> Anyone else see the new Tivo receivers? They are basically HR-21's but with the TiVO software on them. Was in the August Tech Video! It will not be MRV compatible though.
> 
> Yes, I have and was underwhelmed. 70 hours of HD capacity is a joke compared to DVR+. Skip the platform and license the remote.


----------



## Brubear

*Caveat* the unit I saw 2 months ago was early pre-production,without even a working name, so YMMV. The number I am quoting was from on-screen stats from unit info. Compared to the HR34, this resembles the equipment equivalent of a snooze-bar as far as I am concerned.


----------



## mkdtv21

So for everyone who has seen the video is the software UI series 3 or series 2 for the Tivo.


----------



## Jeremy W

mkdtv21 said:


> So for everyone who has seen the video is the software UI series 3 or series 2 for the Tivo.


What's the difference?


----------



## mkdtv21

Jeremy W said:


> What's the difference?


I'm pretty sure you're joking with me but the reason I care if it is series two or three is because the series three has better graphics quality which is something important to me more than specific features.


----------



## Jeremy W

mkdtv21 said:


> I'm pretty sure you're joking with me


Nope.


----------



## CuriousMark

mkdtv21 said:


> I'm pretty sure you're joking with me but the reason I care if it is series two or three is because the series three has better graphics quality which is something important to me more than specific features.


That probably has more to do with the fact that the S3 family has HD output and the S2 family is strictly standard def, rather than it has anything to do with improvement of the UI itself. Since the new box is an HD box, you should expect the UI to look about like it does on an S3 family TiVo DVR.


----------



## HoTat2

mkdtv21 said:


> So for everyone who has seen the video is the software UI series 3 or series 2 for the Tivo.


All I can say from Edward's video demonstration is the UI appears to look the same as that of the old HR10-250.

So if true then what series would that make the graphics UI fall under then? ... :whatdidid


----------



## CuriousMark

HoTat2 said:


> All I can say from Edward's video demonstration is the UI appears to look the same as that of the old HR10-250.
> 
> So if true then what series would that make the graphics UI fall under then? ... :whatdidid


Nothing meaningful. The HR10-250 is also a high def box with a UI formatted for SD. The S3 standalones also fit in this category. I am not sure which chipset is in the HR10-250, but it may be closer to the S2 standalones than the S3s. It is said the chipset in the HR-22 (nee THR-22) is about the same as the chipset in the TiVo HD (a series 3 standalone).

I think the output resolution has more to do with it than the chipset for a given UI formatting.


----------



## harsh

HoTat2 said:


> So if true then what series would that make the graphics UI fall under then? ... :whatdidid


Series finale?


----------



## Sixto

New DirecTV TiVo Launches Next Month: http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-08/new-directv-tivo-launches-next-month/

"Further, a few unconfirmed reports suggest DirecTV distributors should be receiving product on or about September 25th."​


----------



## Jeremy W

Wow, all four people who want one must be really excited about this news!


----------



## tonyd79

"Sixto" said:


> New DirecTV TiVo Launches Next Month: http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-08/new-directv-tivo-launches-next-month/
> 
> "Further, a few unconfirmed reports suggest DirecTV distributors should be receiving product on or about September 25th."


2010?


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> Wow, all four people who want one must be really excited about this news!


You're way off.

Through access to some inside sources, and through extensive market research, the number is much higher. We're talking more then four times higher.

There's 18 people guaranteed.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> You're way off.
> 
> Through access to some inside sources, and through extensive market research, the number is much higher. We're talking more then four times higher.
> 
> There's 18 people guaranteed.


That was so last week...

Las Vegas puts the over/under at 12 this week. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> There's 18 people guaranteed.





Tom Robertson said:


> Las Vegas puts the over/under at 12 this week.


Wow, where did this massive uprising of support come from?


----------



## Nordic

What if, back in 2009, or about then, Tivo made a bunch of D receivers, but for some reason did not, or would not ship them. Now when they are ready to launch, need to get rid of these old units. They did not have MRV in these old units. So, some people (18 or so) buy them. A few months go by, the new and improved units come out, these 18 people want to upgrade, and Dtv sells them to them at a higher cost. They get more money out of them twice. Now of course, would never make sense if only 18 people got them, but if thousands did. Maybe. Just a thought....


----------



## sbiller1

This DVR will be a reasonable mid-tier primary DVR with support for VOD and unified search across linear and VOD content. It is dissapointing that its not based on the Premiere platform but I assume it will function just as well as my current Series 3 and TiVo HD which still work very well today with SD menus. I wouldn't be surprised with the right marketing push that they sell quite a few of these boxes. This is assuming that they charge less than the premium associated with their whole home DVR.


----------



## hbkbiggestfan

Here is the leaked training video for the new DirecTiVo. No MRV. Same SD TiVo UI. Booooo! I'm not getting one.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/tivo-talks-cable-satellite-directivo-exposed/


----------



## Jeremy W

Nordic said:


> What if, back in 2009, or about then, Tivo made a bunch of D receivers, but for some reason did not, or would not ship them.


That's not what happened. At all.


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> You're way off.
> 
> Through access to some inside sources, and through extensive market research, the number is much higher. We're talking more then four times higher.
> 
> There's 18 people guaranteed.


After knowing MRV is a no go, 18 a little optimistic


----------



## cypherx

Downgrade my HR24 to an older HR22 generation?
Lose MRV and DirecTV2PC?
Lose the DirecTV iPad app?
Lose YouTube access?
Lose remote programming via Directv.com, iphone app, ipad?
Lose the upcoming DirecTV HD-UI that Mike White promised for Q4 of this year?
Lose the upcoming Pandora and Social apps Mike White also touched on?
Lose the fun in participating in the cutting edge program?
Lose the RF remote?
Lose IP Control?

All for what? Some blips and bloops and a nice reminiscing of obsolete equipment / UI for ole times sake?

No thanks. I see absolutely NO reason for this thing. I'm pretty sure it's coming out just to appease Tivo and ensure there are no quarrels over sharing IP.


----------



## Doug Brott

cypherx said:


> Downgrade my HR24 to an older HR22 generation?
> Loose MRV and DirecTV2PC?
> Loose the DirecTV iPad app?
> Loose YouTube access?
> Loose remote programming via Directv.com, iphone app, ipad?
> Loose the upcoming DirecTV HD-UI that Mike White promised for Q4 of this year?
> Loose the upcoming Pandora and Social apps Mike White also touched on?
> Loose the fun in participating in the cutting edge program?
> Loose the RF remote?
> Loose IP Control?
> 
> All for what? Some blips and bloops and a nice reminiscing of obsolete equipment / UI for ole times sake?
> 
> No thanks. I see absolutely NO reason for this thing. I'm pretty sure it's coming out just to appease Tivo and ensure there are no quarrels over sharing IP.


learning how to spell "lose" .. priceless.


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> learning how to spell "lose" .. priceless.


Tsk tsk, already insulting subscribers? :lol:


----------



## inkahauts

cypherx said:


> Downgrade my HR24 to an older HR22 generation?
> Loose MRV and DirecTV2PC?
> Loose the DirecTV iPad app?
> Loose YouTube access?
> Loose remote programming via Directv.com, iphone app, ipad?
> Loose the upcoming DirecTV HD-UI that Mike White promised for Q4 of this year?
> Loose the upcoming Pandora and Social apps Mike White also touched on?
> Loose the fun in participating in the cutting edge program?
> Loose the RF remote?
> Loose IP Control?
> 
> All for what? Some blips and bloops and a nice reminiscing of obsolete equipment / UI for ole times sake?
> 
> No thanks. I see absolutely NO reason for this thing. I'm pretty sure it's coming out just to appease Tivo and ensure there are no quarrels over sharing IP.


Now Now. I do believe you will be able to schedule programs to record over the net, the old hr10-250 do that now as I recall. So there will be some remote scheduling capability.


----------



## inkahauts

sbiller1 said:


> This DVR will be a reasonable mid-tier primary DVR with support for VOD and unified search across linear and VOD content. It is dissapointing that its not based on the Premiere platform but I assume it will function just as well as my current Series 3 and TiVo HD which still work very well today with SD menus. I wouldn't be surprised with the right marketing push that they sell quite a few of these boxes. This is assuming that they charge less than the premium associated with their whole home DVR.


:thats:

You must realize that the new tivo will cost more a month than directv dvrs do, and I'll bet as much in up front fees too... The only thing I expect to be more expensive than a tivo would maybe be the hr34.


----------



## Spike

hbkbiggestfan said:


> Here is the leaked training video for the new DirecTiVo. No MRV. Same SD TiVo UI. Booooo! I'm not getting one.
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/tivo-talks-cable-satellite-directivo-exposed/


Double Boo! I really think Directv's new HD GUI is going to be bettah!
So this tivo thingymahbob is a big NO for me, and I was so looking forward to having one too! Sheesh.

:nono:


----------



## ejjames

I will upgrade the two 10-250's my wife and kids use. i'll keep one of the 2 HR20'S that only I use. I look forward to the HD GUI, and I use DIRECTV2PC everyday. This will let me do a few things.

1. Give the rest of the family hd (although they say they don;t care.)
2. FINALLY, I'll get to use SWM!
3. Return a HR20, as I'll only need the tivo in the family room.

I've said no to being eligible for 2 DVR upgrades. I'm hoping to get some discount on the new tivos, but I'm not expecting anything. What incentive would directv have?


----------



## syphix

I can't believe it's taken this long, considering the interface is old, the hardware is old, and there's no MRV. Too little, too late.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

Doug Brott said:


> learning how to spell "lose" .. priceless.





Jeremy W said:


> Tsk tsk, already insulting subscribers? :lol:


He's had to hold his tongue for years, I'm sure that just slipped. :lol:


----------



## lotbass

(Partial quote below)


ejjames said:


> This will let me do a few things.
> 
> 1. Give the rest of the family hd (although they say they don;t care.)
> 2. FINALLY, I'll get to use SWM!
> 
> I'm hoping to get some discount on the new tivos, but I'm not expecting anything.


Me too!
It may also let me get over my fear of upgrading to a plasma... My wfie watches in 4:3 SD on the 10-250, so I was afraid of burning in black bars on the side of the screen. Switching her to HD will finally eliminate that fear for me.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I plan to give one a try.


----------



## Brian Hanasky

Engadget DirecTv Tivo training video.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/24/tivo-talks-cable-satellite-directivo-exposed/


----------



## woj027

Yea, kinda sad no MRV, and no HD GUI.


----------



## employee3

woj027 said:


> Yea, kinda sad no MRV, and no HD GUI.


No MRV is a deal breaker for me. Did anyone else notice the 5/25/2010 build date? Hard to believe the software is that far behind.

No built-in DECA is also a disappointment.


----------



## Jeremy W

employee3 said:


> Did anyone else notice the 5/25/2010 build date? Hard to believe the software is that far behind.


It shouldn't be that hard to believe, that is Tivo's specialty. What's really hard to believe is that this thing may actually see the light of day.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Less than 60 days! Cool...!

Based upon hearsay, the HRXX (non TiVo) will be very slick, clean and fast soon. If and when this happens, what will allure the masses to the TiVo?

Just on paper the HRXX (non TiVo) will outshine the TiVo. I don’t post (or read) in this thread much. My take, it seems the TiVo is about two years too late. On the other hand, options are grand!


----------



## cypherx

Haha Doug, thanks... I just corrected it. Not sure what I did there, copy it once and paste it. I swear I only had 1 60min IPA to drink.

Anyway to pay more and get less on older hardware running older software, I think it's a no brainier. ESPECIALLY since we know for a fact DirecTV will have a pretty substantial user interface update. Mike White said he wants to really WOW us with this one (or he phrased it something like that in the last earnings call).

He's eluded to it being HD, being so fast it's like scrolling through spreadsheets, having more social interaction features, including Pandora, and who knows what else he eluded to. Not only that but to run it on a newer piece of MRV compatible equipment like an HR-24 or the future HR-34 or whatever its going to be called... well that is icing on the cake.

DirecTivo? Just coming out to please Tivo and seal the deal so DirecTV can use some of their patents in their own DVR software.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

More choice is better, right? So those folks who have been staying with SD because they love their HDVR2s will have another choice.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> More choice is better, right? So those folks who have been staying with SD because they love their HDVR2s will have another choice.


They were foolish enough to stick with SD for this long, so I'm sure they'll be foolish enough to purchase the THR22.


----------



## paulman182

Yeah, it's probably just to satisfy people who ask the question "Does DirecTV offer a TiVo?" when they are considering subscribing. 

Now, once again, the answer will be yes.


----------



## Jeremy W

cypherx said:


> He's eluded to it being HD, being so fast it's like scrolling through spreadsheets, having more social interaction features, including Pandora, and who knows what else he eluded to.


Since Doug started "pick on cypherx" day, I'm going to continue. The word you're looking for is "alluded" since Mike White isn't trying to escape from the HD GUI. :lol:


----------



## cypherx

Stuart Sweet said:


> More choice is better, right? So those folks who have been staying with SD because they love their HDVR2s will have another choice.


Your right. One man's trash is another man's treasure. It's not for me, but for those who are willing to spring for these, more power to them.

I can't really knock em. I'm sure some of the HD channels I would like to see don't appeal others. I know some HD channels requested by others don't always appeal to me either (Lakers network, longhorn network, shorts, etc..).

So I always say more choice the better.


----------



## Jeremy W

paulman182 said:


> Yeah, it's probably just to satisfy people who ask the question "Does DirecTV offer a TiVo?" when they are considering subscribing.


The number of people who ask that question and actually mean Tivo, Inc. is probably very small.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> Since Doug started "pick on cypherx" day, I'm going to continue. The word you're looking for is "alluded" since Mike White isn't trying to escape from the HD GUI. :lol:


Yeah, that day was yesterday. Let's move on.


----------



## mikeny

employee3 said:


> No MRV is a deal breaker for me. Did anyone else notice the 5/25/2010 build date? Hard to believe the software is that far behind.
> 
> No built-in DECA is also a disappointment.


It just looks like an mpeg-4 capable HR10-250. Very disappointing to not include MRV/DECA. Why won't it? Was that an executive decision or is it really incompatible?


----------



## CopyCat

Happy with what we have.........:grin:


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yeah, that day was yesterday. Let's move on.


Not in my timezone!


----------



## Smthkd

Haha! What a dissapointment! I used to be an avid Tivo fan but this is just SAD!!  I guess this is also part of D* strategy to get people to continue buy there DVR platform. I tell you one thing, I really miss that old Sony receiver. Now that was a nice unit. I still say D* need to hook up with Google and use the android UI for future receivers/dvrs. Since its clear the new Tivo HDVR is going to be a failure. LOL


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> Not in my timezone!


I work on moderator standard time :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

mikeny said:


> It just looks like an mpeg-4 capable HR10-250. Very disappointing to not include MRV/DECA. Why won't it? Was that an executive decision or is it really incompatible?


The THR22 will support DECA the same way the HR22 supports it, with a dongle. As far as MRV, Tivo had enough trouble getting the current feature set running. DirecTV's MRV solution is very different from Tivo's, so that's another can of worms that Tivo probably wasn't ready to open.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> I work on moderator standard time :lol:


Damn it! :lol:


----------



## mikeny

Jeremy W said:


> The THR22 will support DECA the same way the HR22 supports it, with a dongle. As far as MRV, Tivo had enough trouble getting the current feature set running. DirecTV's MRV solution is very different from Tivo's, so that's another can of worms that Tivo probably wasn't ready to open.


Sure, I meant internal DECA. To me any kind of DECA without MRV is a pizza without cheese.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Who says I'll have to pay for one?


----------



## pfp

> multi-room viewing will not be supported between DirecTV TiVo units and/or other DirecTV HD DVRs


That says no MRV between Tivo and DirecTV DVR's. What about MRV between multiple Tivo DVR's?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I sincerely sincerely doubt you'll see MRV between DIRECTV TiVos. I just don't see widespread calls for that feature. 

Said it before, say it again. It seems like the purpose of this device is to give MPEG4/HD access to people who have been staying with SD because they like TiVo. It's not focused on the advanced user.


----------



## tonyd79

Stuart Sweet said:


> I sincerely sincerely doubt you'll see MRV between DIRECTV TiVos. I just don't see widespread calls for that feature.
> 
> Said it before, say it again. It seems like the purpose of this device is to give MPEG4/HD access to people who have been staying with SD because they like TiVo. It's not focused on the advanced user.


The irony is that Tivo is not staying with Tivo anymore. The newer Tivo GUI's only have a passing resemblance to this software.


----------



## cypherx

tonyd79 said:


> The irony is that Tivo is not staying with Tivo anymore. The newer Tivo GUI's only have a passing resemblance to this software.


I wonder if they will ever update it to enable the user to turn on the Tivo Premiere UI?

I know in RCN's implementation there was no HDGUI for awhile. Now they have the HDGUI (or what's completed of it). But they can always disable it if they want.


----------



## wingrider01

inkahauts said:


> Now Now. I do believe you will be able to schedule programs to record over the net, the old hr10-250 do that now as I recall. So there will be some remote scheduling capability.


Stand corrected, 6.4A brought that, one decent option on the new unit. No MRV, will relegate that unit to the level of the R15. Curious as to what the premium charge will be for it though


----------



## Jeremy W

cypherx said:


> I wonder if they will ever update it to enable the user to turn on the Tivo Premiere UI?


The hardware in the THR22 cannot handle the Premiere UI the way it is implemented today.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy is right. There is no way this device will ever get the Premiere UI. I've heard rumors that it's the same UI lifted from the HR10 (a 7-year-old port of the original TiVo interface)


----------



## BattleScott

Stuart Sweet said:


> I sincerely sincerely doubt you'll see MRV between DIRECTV TiVos. I just don't see widespread calls for that feature.
> 
> Said it before, say it again. It seems like the purpose of this device is to give MPEG4/HD access to people who have been staying with SD because they like TiVo. It's not focused on the advanced user.


This is a very interesting point. It has been assumed by many of us that DirecTV actually had little to no interest in this product ever seeing the light of day. From this angle though, I can see a pretty good value to DirecTV in having a device that will help move those unmotivated mepg2 SD users into mpeg4.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Anything that helps retain customers at no cost to DIRECTV is a good deal, so yeah it's a good deal.


----------



## cypherx

Jeremy W said:


> The hardware in the THR22 cannot handle the Premiere UI the way it is implemented today.


I take it because Tivo's clumsy decision to use a Flash based UI?

Supposedly DirecTV's in house HD-GUI will work on HR20 and up. HR20, say isn't that even worse than an HR22?

I guess we will see how DirecTV's new GUI will perform on the older equipment.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> Anything that helps retain customers at no cost to DIRECTV is a good deal, so yeah it's a good deal.


The no cost part is important. At this point, these customers are clearly not *that* important to DirecTV. If DirecTV actually had to spend real money to keep them, I can't imagine they would bother.


----------



## Jeremy W

cypherx said:


> I take it because Tivo's clumsy decision to use a Flash based UI?


Yep.


cypherx said:


> Supposedly DirecTV's in house HD-GUI will work on HR20 and up. HR20, say isn't that even worse than an HR22?


In terms of raw performance, the HR20 isn't really worse than the HR22. Starting with the HR21 and up to the HR23, DirecTV went to a single-chip solution for the CPU and video decoder, which basically negated any performance increases they'd have seen by using newer chips. It was a cost-cutting measure.


----------



## pfp

Stuart Sweet said:


> I sincerely sincerely doubt you'll see MRV between DIRECTV TiVos. I just don't see widespread calls for that feature.
> 
> Said it before, say it again. It seems like the purpose of this device is to give MPEG4/HD access to people who have been staying with SD because they like TiVo. It's not focused on the advanced user.


Yep just watched the video which indicates no MRV even to other Tivo units. Seems really odd since Tivo was one of the first with MRV and it had to disabled (not but not removed) in the previous DirecTivo's.


----------



## Jeremy W

pfp said:


> Yep just watched the video which indicates no MRV even to other Tivo units. Seems really odd since Tivo was one of the first with MRV and it had to disabled (not but not removed) in the previous DirecTivo's.


My guess is that DirecTV doesn't like the fact that Tivo's MRV creates a copy of the program, and so they won't allow them to implement it that way.


----------



## judson_west

Stuart Sweet said:


> Said it before, say it again. It seems like the purpose of this device is to give MPEG4/HD access to people who have been staying with SD because they like TiVo. It's not focused on the advanced user.


Then they hit the nail on the head.

Seeing the TiVO interface on the video again made me pine for that old TiVo UI. In MY OPINION, a very warm and fuzzy UI vs. the current DirecTV UI.


----------



## Jeremy W

judson_west said:


> In MY OPINION, a very warm and fuzzy UI vs. the current DirecTV UI.


I don't think many people would disagree with your opinion. However, I don't know how many people actually want the UI to be warm and fuzzy. I sure don't. I want it to be slick and modern, which is the exact opposite of the current DirecTV UI.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That's another whole anticipation thread :lol:

Seriously, if you liked your DirecTiVo in 2003, you'll love it in 2011.*

*Unless you want any of the features that have become standard on DIRECTV DVRs since then.


----------



## Visman

Now they need to bring back Microsoft's Ultimate receiver for DirecTV


----------



## Jon W

Why 2 Ethernet jacks?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jon W said:


> Why 2 Ethernet jacks?


It was part of the original hardware. Use of both jacks also uses system resources so is not recommended.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EntropyByDesign

We were Tivo users for several years until 2009 when we switched to Dish. After two years of using their ham-handed DVR, we switch to Directv this month. The Directv DVR is much closer to the Tivo feature set that we liked. No it's not warm and fuzzy, but it works well. At this point I see no need to look at the DirecTivo. If it doesn't include MRV then it's DOA. Which is weird because our Tivo Series 2 could do MRV.

Maybe in 2 years when our commitment is up we'll look at it again. But for all the holdouts waiting for DirecTivo, I can say the HR24 has everything you really need.


----------



## cypherx

Tom Robertson said:


> It was part of the original hardware. Use of both jacks also uses system resources so is not recommended.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Why did they design it that way? Were they thinking of making it a built in router?

Really if it's not needed couldn't Foxconn or Amp (or whoever made the connector) just supply them with a cheaper 1 port solution, then they can just put a cover over the other hole, like Dell sometimes does with certain PC's.


----------



## Jeremy W

cypherx said:


> Were they thinking of making it a built in router?


No.


cypherx said:


> Really if it's not needed


It's there for a reason. I don't know what that reason is, but I do know that they wouldn't put a second port on there just for grins.


----------



## phox_mulder

Jeremy W said:


> No.
> 
> It's there for a reason. I don't know what that reason is, but I do know that they wouldn't put a second port on there just for grins.


They had a bunch of 2 port cards left over from the HR20's?

phox


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It's there for the same reason that there are two USB ports. Part of the original design spec that never went anywhere.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> It's there for the same reason that there are two USB ports. Part of the original design spec that never went anywhere.


But the original model didn't have two ports. I know that the HR20i requires the MFH3 connection to be in the bottom port, so I wonder if the plan was to allow the top port to connect to the home network for MediaShare?


----------



## MikeW

Not seeing any mention of it working with an AM21. Will OTA be supported?


----------



## Jeremy W

MikeW said:


> Not seeing any mention of it working with an AM21. Will OTA be supported?


AM21 support is expected.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> But the original model didn't have two ports. I know that the HR20i requires the MFH3 connection to be in the bottom port, so I wonder if the plan was to allow the top port to connect to the home network for MediaShare?


The HR20-700 had one port, but the HR20-100 had two.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> The HR20-700 had one port, but the HR20-100 had two.


Yes, when I said "original model" I was referring to the HR20-700. The HR20-100 was not released simultaneously with the HR20-700. And the HR20i is based on the HR20-100.


----------



## TBoneit

Watching that video made me wonder if the eSATA port is crippled like on the HR series where it replaces the internal drive rather than letting you use both drives.

Other thoughts: Do you watch TV for the DVR interface or the content. Probably The new DirecTV Tivo may work better for that. The first thing I did with my Tivo was turn off Suggestions, followed by other things however some may like them.

Since I can not be the only person around that doesn't want to share DVR content this could be a modest hit.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, of course we're going a little off topic but...

If you recall we first heard of the HR21 only a couple of months after the HR20-700 came out. Knowing what I know now, I can safely say that both HR20-100 and HR21-700 were already in the pipeline before the HR20-700 hit the streets. At some point in the design process — and I would have to guess this would have been early 2006 — someone thought that future models in the line would need two ports. And again at some point in the process — and this was probably somewhere in 2009 — someone decided that wasn't true, and HR24s have only one port. What happened in the meantime? SWiM, for one. Maybe at one point there was a thought that you would need a separate connection for MRV. Who knows? 

Bottom line though, those extra ports are purely vestigial.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

TBoneit said:


> Watching that video made me wonder if the eSATA port is crippled like on the HR series where it replaces the internal drive rather than letting you use both drives.
> 
> Other thoughts: Do you watch TV for the DVR interface or the content. Probably The new DirecTV Tivo may work better for that. The first thing I did with my Tivo was turn off Suggestions, followed by other things however some may like them.
> 
> Since I can not be the only person around that doesn't want to share DVR content this could be a modest hit.


TBoneit, we don't even know if eSATA is supported with the TiVo, do we? Technically it's not "really" supported on the HRs.


----------



## Jeremy W

TBoneit said:


> Watching that video made me wonder if the eSATA port is crippled like on the HR series where it replaces the internal drive rather than letting you use both drives.


Yes. The SATA bus only supports one drive. There is no way around that in software.


TBoneit said:


> Do you watch TV for the DVR interface or the content.


This argument is ridiculous. Nobody watches TV for the UI, but the UI can absolutely affect overall satisfaction with your TV watching experience.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> TBoneit, we don't even know if eSATA is supported with the TiVo, do we? Technically it's not "really" supported on the HRs.


You know, that's a good point. Considering the fact that Tivo stores their software on the hard drive, and connecting an external drive will disable the internal one, the THR22 probably won't support eSATA at all.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> What happened in the meantime? SWiM, for one.


SWiM was in the picture even when the HR20-700 was being designed, although it was called FTM back then.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Jeremy W said:


> Yes. The SATA bus only supports one drive. There is no way around that in software.
> 
> This argument is ridiculous. Nobody watches TV for the UI, but the UI can absolutely affect overall satisfaction with your TV watching experience.


Well, the differences between the tivo UI and the DirecTV UI are mostly minor and irrelevant. Take something like the Motorola UI and the difference is night and day. I can't even use the POS.


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, the differences between the tivo UI and the DirecTV UI are mostly minor and irrelevant.


Seriously? I disagree completely. I'd almost go so far as to say that iGuide (what I'm assuming you're referring to as "Motorola UI" since Motorola doesn't actually have a UI) is more similar to DirecTV's UI than Tivo's is.


----------



## xmguy

cypherx said:


> Downgrade my HR24 to an older HR22 generation?
> Lose MRV and DirecTV2PC?
> Lose the DirecTV iPad app?
> Lose YouTube access?
> Lose remote programming via Directv.com, iphone app, ipad?
> Lose the upcoming DirecTV HD-UI that Mike White promised for Q4 of this year?
> Lose the upcoming Pandora and Social apps Mike White also touched on?
> Lose the fun in participating in the cutting edge program?
> Lose the RF remote?
> Lose IP Control?
> 
> All for what? Some blips and bloops and a nice reminiscing of obsolete equipment / UI for ole times sake?
> 
> No thanks. I see absolutely NO reason for this thing. I'm pretty sure it's coming out just to appease Tivo and ensure there are no quarrels over sharing IP.


OH WOW! Welcome to 2008!


----------



## SledgeHammer

Jeremy W said:


> Seriously? I disagree completely. I'd almost go so far as to say that iGuide (what I'm assuming you're referring to as "Motorola UI" since Motorola doesn't actually have a UI) is more similar to DirecTV's UI than Tivo's is.


Maybe you've seen a different moto box then I have. I saw one at my parents house for Adelphia cable. Its basically 5 to 7 icons across the bottom of the screen that cause popup menus to open.


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> That's another whole anticipation thread :lol:
> 
> Seriously, if you liked your DirecTiVo in 2003, you'll love it in 2011.*
> 
> *Unless you want any of the features that have become standard on DIRECTV DVRs since then.


Not if it doesn't support MRV or WHDVR Service which is a Deal Breaker for me!!! :nono2:


----------



## RunnerFL

cypherx said:


> Lose IP Control?


Already lost for the most part.


----------



## Richierich

cypherx said:


> Downgrade my HR24 to an older HR22 generation?
> Lose MRV and DirecTV2PC?
> Lose the DirecTV iPad app?
> Lose YouTube access?
> Lose remote programming via Directv.com, iphone app, ipad?
> Lose the upcoming DirecTV HD-UI that Mike White promised for Q4 of this year?
> Lose the upcoming Pandora and Social apps Mike White also touched on?
> Lose the fun in participating in the cutting edge program?
> Lose the RF remote?
> Lose IP Control?
> 
> All for what? Some blips and bloops and a nice reminiscing of obsolete equipment / UI for ole times sake?
> 
> No thanks. I see absolutely NO reason for this thing. I'm pretty sure it's coming out just to appease Tivo and ensure there are no quarrels over sharing IP.


Thanks for Posting all of those Reasons as I couldn't remember them all but after I found out that it didn't have WHDVR Service I could Care Less about a New Directivo!!!

Who is is for? Those who have to have a TiVo with HD but doesn't care about those things mentioned above. A Very Small Minority of Customers.


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> Maybe you've seen a different moto box then I have. I saw one at my parents house for Adelphia cable. Its basically 5 to 7 icons across the bottom of the screen that cause popup menus to open.


Motorola boxes can run a few different UIs. I'm not sure which one you're referring to.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> SWiM was in the picture even when the HR20-700 was being designed, although it was called FTM back then.


True that "something" was in the pipeline but did you ever wonder whether FTM and SWiM were really the same thing, or if SWiM was more like FTM 2.0 where it added networking.?


----------



## TBoneit

Jeremy W said:


> Yes. The SATA bus only supports one drive. There is no way around that in software.
> 
> This argument is ridiculous. Nobody watches TV for the UI, but the UI can absolutely affect overall satisfaction with your TV watching experience.


I find that hard to believe that the SATA bus only supports one drive. One drive per port that I will agree with.

The reason I say is with a external drive drive connected you have two devices on SATA therefor there has to be two Active SATA ports. Otherwise extra circuits to electronically detach the internal when a external is detected.

I stand ready to be convinced otherwise.

I guess I may be strange. The only way a GUI could affect my TV watching enjoyment is if needed functions are missing or tortuous to use.

I spend so little time in the GUI. I have things set to record new shows only and so mainly I pull up a list of shows and watch.

For example I have a WD media player, The old Netflix software never bothered me, the new version totally different no improvement to me.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> True that "something" was in the pipeline but did you ever wonder whether FTM and SWiM were really the same thing, or if SWiM was more like FTM 2.0 where it added networking.?


 SWiM doesn't really add networking, it just leaves room for it. I find it hard to imagine an "FTM 1.0" system that *wouldn't* work in this manner.


----------



## Jeremy W

TBoneit said:


> I find that hard to believe that the SATA bus only supports one drive.


OK, well you should probably believe it, because it's true. The chip in the HR21-23 contains lots of cost-cutting measures.


TBoneit said:


> The reason I say is with a external drive drive connected you have two devices on SATA therefor there has to be two Active SATA ports. Otherwise extra circuits to electronically detach the internal when a external is detected.
> 
> I stand ready to be convinced otherwise.


I don't know why you need to be convinced otherwise, because that's how the receivers work today. The fact that the chip only supports one device is public information from Broadcom, it's not like I'm making this up.


----------



## kfcrosby

Can it be ??? Does this mean ???

I can finally quit getting the message " Your TiVo has not been able to contact... for 2921 days" :sure:



Stuart Sweet said:


> That's another whole anticipation thread :lol:
> 
> Seriously, if you liked your DirecTiVo in 2003, you'll love it in 2011.*
> 
> *Unless you want any of the features that have become standard on DIRECTV DVRs since then.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> SWiM doesn't really add networking, it just leaves room for it. I find it hard to imagine an "FTM 1.0" system that *wouldn't* work in this manner.


I guess I have a better imagination then :lol:


----------



## Beerstalker

Jeremy W said:


> Motorola boxes can run a few different UIs. I'm not sure which one you're referring to.


Sounds like he's probably talking about the old TV guide interface. Comcast is still using it around here. It makes the DirecTV UI look amazing and simple (I will admit the Comcast one is a bit faster to respond than my HR21s though).

It's a 4:3 guide that shows up pillarboxed, only like 4 or 5 channels on a page in the guide (hour and a half wide). Always a big ad at the bottom of the screen, etc.


----------



## Jeremy W

Beerstalker said:


> It's a 4:3 guide that shows up pillarboxed, only like 4 or 5 channels on a page in the guide (hour and a half wide). Always a big ad at the bottom of the screen, etc.


The only functional difference between that and DirecTV's guide is that sometimes you'll see 6 channels on DirecTV's guide, and it's stretched 4:3 instead of pillarboxed 4:3. The two aren't *that* different.

DirecTV's looks nicer, I'd say. But it also runs slower.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> The THR22 will support DECA the same way the HR22 supports it, with a dongle. As far as MRV, Tivo had enough trouble getting the current feature set running. DirecTV's MRV solution is very different from Tivo's, so that's another can of worms that Tivo probably wasn't ready to open.


And clearly DirecTV is not allowing TiVo's existing and working MRV solution to be used. It would not be compatible with DirecTV's streaming MRV solution, but it would work fine between DirecTiVo units and could even work over SWM. So TiVo style MRV could be there, DirecTV just doesn't want it.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> And clearly DirecTV is not allowing TiVo's existing and working MRV solution to be used. It would not be compatible with DirecTV's streaming MRV solution, but it would work fine between DirecTiVo units and could even work over SWM. So TiVo style MRV could be there, DirecTV just doesn't want it.


Like I said before, it's probably because Tivo's version creates a copy of the program. DirecTV actually has to worry about appeasing content providers, so they don't allow copying at all.


----------



## TBoneit

Jeremy W said:


> OK, well you should probably believe it, because it's true. The chip in the HR21-23 contains lots of cost-cutting measures.
> 
> I don't know why you need to be convinced otherwise, because that's how the receivers work today. The fact that the chip only supports one device is public information from Broadcom, it's not like I'm making this up.


That makes me wonder how the internal drive doesn't interfere with the external drive if they are on the same SATA port. I'll believe the cost cutting measures.


----------



## CuriousMark

cypherx said:


> I wonder if they will ever update it to enable the user to turn on the Tivo Premiere UI?
> 
> I know in RCN's implementation there was no HDGUI for awhile. Now they have the HDGUI (or what's completed of it). But they can always disable it if they want.


The (T)HR22 based hardware does not have the chip TiVo uses in the premiere to do the HD GUI. That Chip has a Flash accellerator on it and the UI is Flash. The chipset in the HR22 is closer to the chipset in the TiVo HD which also did not and will most likely never get an HD UI from TiVo.

RCN uses the TiVo Premiere, they simply kept the HD UI turned off until enough of the bugs were worked out that they felt comfortable turning it on.


----------



## HoTat2

Jeremy W said:


> You know, that's a good point. Considering the fact that Tivo stores their software on the hard drive, and connecting an external drive will disable the internal one, the THR22 probably won't support eSATA at all.


You don't think TIVO designed their OS in this case to be stored in flash memory as DIRECTV does on all the HR platforms?


----------



## Jeremy W

HoTat2 said:


> You don't think TIVO designed their OS in this case to be stored in flash memory as DIRECTV does on all the HR platforms?


It's not impossible, but honestly I'd be shocked.


----------



## Jeremy W

TBoneit said:


> That makes me wonder how the internal drive doesn't interfere with the external drive if they are on the same SATA port. I'll believe the cost cutting measures.


They've got a simple chip that will switch between them, preferring the external port if there is a hard drive connected.


----------



## CuriousMark

TBoneit said:


> Watching that video made me wonder if the eSATA port is crippled like on the HR series where it replaces the internal drive rather than letting you use both drives.


It depends on whether DirecTV allowed TiVo to implement their hard drive expansion menchanism or not. If they did, it should work just like it does on a TiVo HD. If not,then perhaps they required TiVo to do it the DirecTV way, or not do it at all.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> You know, that's a good point. Considering the fact that Tivo stores their software on the hard drive, and connecting an external drive will disable the internal one, the THR22 probably won't support eSATA at all.


Are you saying that the direcTV eSATA implementation turns of the internal drive with a hardware or mechanical switch? Somehow I doubt that. I find it far more likely that the difference is all in software. If it is software, there is no reason why plugging in an eSATA drive MUST disable the internal drive.


----------



## Beerstalker

He specifically mentions hooking up a external hard drive to the SATA port in the video. I have to believe someone would have caught that and edited it out if it wouldn't work at all on the TIVO.


----------



## dorfd1

if the THR22 has the same hardware in it as a regular HR22 could that mean directv could do a software upgrade on the regular HD-DVRs to turn them into a tivo if the customer wants tivo service?


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Are you saying that the direcTV eSATA implementation turns of the internal drive with a hardware or mechanical switch?


It doesn't turn it off, but it does disconnect it from the SATA bus.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> I don't know why you need to be convinced otherwise, because that's how the receivers work today. The fact that the chip only supports one device is public information from Broadcom, it's not like I'm making this up.


It is supposed to be the same SOC used in the TiVo HD which supports two.

Edit: after reading your more recent posts I will presume that they are not as close as I thought. The chip in the TiVo HD is a cost reduced chip, just not perhaps the exact same one.


----------



## Jeremy W

dorfd1 said:


> if the THR22 has the same hardware in it as a regular HR22 could that mean directv could do a software upgrade on the regular HD-DVRs to turn them into a tivo if the customer wants tivo service?


Regardless of whether or not it's technically possible, it's not going to happen.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> It is supposed to be the same SOC used in the TiVo HD which supports two.


The Tivo HD has a port multiplier.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Like I said before, it's probably because Tivo's version creates a copy of the program. DirecTV actually has to worry about appeasing content providers, so they don't allow copying at all.


That is no more than a guess, but it certainly may be true. There is a big difference between copying between two well controlled boxes and copying out to a PC, a la TiVo ToGo. Clearly TiVo ToGo would not be allowed for the above reasons, but copy MRV to a secure box shouldn't be as much of a problem. If DirecTV wanted it, they probably could have gotten it by the content providers. They probably just didn't want to bother with that since getting an interoperable MRV solution would be a much better final goal.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> It's not impossible, but honestly I'd be shocked.


I agree with Jeremey here. If it were going into flash, it could be downloaded, but the new boxes are being "manufactured" according to TiVo. I interpret that to mean that the flash is being refashed into a bootloader and TiVo softrware is being loaded on the hard drives. Just a guess on my part, but it supports Jeremy's point.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> There is a big difference between copying between two well controlled boxes and copying out to a PC, a la TiVo ToGo.


In a purely technical sense, absolutely. But this gets into IP issues, which don't always align with the technical stuff. For example, with Tivo's MRV system, if a program is flagged "copy once" or "copy never" it simply can't be MRV'd because it requires a copy to be made. The fact that it's "between two well controlled boxes" is totally irrelevant. A copy is a copy, period.


----------



## CuriousMark

dorfd1 said:


> if the THR22 has the same hardware in it as a regular HR22 could that mean directv could do a software upgrade on the regular HD-DVRs to turn them into a tivo if the customer wants tivo service?


TiVo is on record as saying no. They were gun-shy about doing a downloadable operating system after the disaster they had trying to do that with Comcast on Motorola boxes. Recent statements indicating that the new boxes were being "manufactured" indicates to me that it is more complicated than a software download.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> The Tivo HD has a port multiplier.


OK, thanks for the explanation.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> In a purely technical sense, absolutely. But this gets into IP issues, which don't always align with the technical stuff. For example, with Tivo's MRV system, if a program is flagged "copy once" or "copy never" it simply can't be MRV'd because it requires a copy to be made. The fact that it's "between two well controlled boxes" is totally irrelevant. A copy is a copy, period.


Right, and "copy once" or "copy never" content is not MRVable in the TiVo ecosystem. As a matter of fact, on a TiVo copy never content has a continuously decreasing 45 minute buffer so it can't even stay on the original hard drive for long.


----------



## TBoneit

Jeremy W said:


> They've got a simple chip that will switch between them, preferring the external port if there is a hard drive connected.


Thanks for the info.


----------



## hemmerce

I remembering being really jazzed about the announcement for the directivo back in the day. At the time the HRs were buggy, trickplay barely worked, audio problems commonplace, no doubleplay (which I missed from my original SD Tivo badly), MRV and internet streamed video weren't even a consideration. Now the HR has all that and more with HD interface supposedly on its way. Too little and far too late on this device. Two years ago, maybe but not now.


----------



## Maleman

Another two year committment?


----------



## Brennok

I mentioned it to my father, and he is just as happy to stick with SD at this point. 

I can see him in the future upgrading if something happens to his current DirecTiVos or his 40" CRTs, but for now he doesn't think it is worth the extra money. Also he is spoiled with the upgraded drives in his DirecTiVos so I don't know that he would be happy to go from 1200+ hours to however many the HD TiVo will have.


----------



## gully_foyle

employee3 said:


> No MRV is a deal breaker for me. Did anyone else notice the 5/25/2010 build date? Hard to believe the software is that far behind.
> 
> No built-in DECA is also a disappointment.


Believe it or don't, but I have no use for MRV. One (really nice) TV. I wonder how this box performs, though, using the slowish HR22 hardware.


----------



## gully_foyle

cypherx said:


> Lose IP Control?


That is actually an issue, believe it or not. All modern devices have IP control of some sort or other, and very soon that will be the way remotes go, from your smart phone if from nothing else. Once you have a whole system of IP-based devices, you won't accept anything that doesn't play.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Oh well, no MRV. 

I wonder if anybody with an HR* will even want one?

(If it were 2005, I'd be all over it, but I've converted to an HR*-phile)


----------



## minorthr

I'm was a huge Tivo guy. Loved Tivo then my Directivos and my HD Directivo but I'm not buying this. No MRV is a big minus for me and the old GUI is a big disappointment. Guess I shouldn't be surprised.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

It's like getting excited to get a brand new Ford Taurus (a really nice car) and having a 1999 model delivered. Uh - thanks for thinking of me, but I'll pass.


----------



## balboadave

I'm not going to replace either of my 2 HR24s, I enjoy and make use of everything they can do, but I have space and wiring available to add a THR22. Whether I do or not depends on price, performance and feature set, but just getting access to the superior wish list and unlimited season pass features might be worth it to me, and the extra tuners will come in handy too.


----------



## Draconis

Stuart Sweet said:


> That's another whole anticipation thread :lol:
> 
> Seriously, if you liked your DirecTiVo in 2003, you'll love it in 2011.*
> 
> *Unless you want any of the features that have become standard on DIRECTV DVRs since then.


!rolling

Although I will admit, I am very curious about what the new box will have.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

"Jeremy W" said:


> Regardless of whether or not it's technically possible, it's not going to happen.


I have it on good authority that it can't be done, at least not in the field.


----------



## Draconis

You know, now I'm wondering how the software updates are going to run. The old TiVo's and their phone line requirements were annoying to the extreme. 

Let’s hope it can be updated Via satellite, or at least over broadband.


----------



## Jeremy W

Draconis said:


> You know, now I'm wondering how the software updates are going to run. The old TiVo's and their phone line requirements were annoying to the extreme.
> 
> Let's hope it can be updated Via satellite, or at least over broadband.


Considering the fact that there's been software in the stream for the THR22 for months now, I think updating via satellite is highly likely.


----------



## Mark Holtz

Look, I had the SWiM model of the SD-DVR from DirecTV after a tuner decided to go bust on my DirecTiVo. And, trust me, it was a sad day.

First off, 30 second skip. Select-play-select-3-0-select ding ding ding. That resulted in a nice feature where I skipped over the commercials instantly. 

Secondly, I did go through the channel list and deselect plenty of channel. Some of them were Spanish language channels, others were premiums that I did not subscribe to. This allowed me to go through the movies and select which movies I wanted to record. I could also select the channel, and go through the two weeks of programming. 

In comparison, the SD-DVR was slow and clunky. I was glad to be rid of it a few months ago. I still don't have a receiver.

Now, the big thing that is preventing me from snatching up one of these new DVRs is that I do not have a HDTV in my room. That can always be changed.


----------



## Jeremy W

Mark Holtz said:


> In comparison, the SD-DVR was slow and clunky. I was glad to be rid of it a few months ago. I still don't have a receiver.


It also had both of the features you mentioned, so I'm not quite sure why you mentioned them.


----------



## Draconis

Jeremy W said:


> Considering the fact that there's been software in the stream for the THR22 for months now, I think updating via satellite is highly likely.


Bah, pity we do not have a /facepalm emote.


----------



## Jeremy W

Draconis said:


> Bah, pity we do not have a /facepalm emote.


Happens to the best of us. Excluding me, of course.


----------



## ejjames

Anyone know if these will require a phone connection to activate like the 10-250? Because my VoIP has never worked with this. Hopefully it will be like the HR22 in this regard.


----------



## inkahauts

Mark Holtz said:


> Look, I had the SWiM model of the SD-DVR from DirecTV after a tuner decided to go bust on my DirecTiVo. And, trust me, it was a sad day.
> 
> First off, 30 second skip. Select-play-select-3-0-select ding ding ding. That resulted in a nice feature where I skipped over the commercials instantly.
> 
> Secondly, I did go through the channel list and deselect plenty of channel. Some of them were Spanish language channels, others were premiums that I did not subscribe to. This allowed me to go through the movies and select which movies I wanted to record. I could also select the channel, and go through the two weeks of programming.
> 
> In comparison, the SD-DVR was slow and clunky. I was glad to be rid of it a few months ago. I still don't have a receiver.
> 
> Now, the big thing that is preventing me from snatching up one of these new DVRs is that I do not have a HDTV in my room. That can always be changed.


Um, you know the new Directv DVRs that are HD do all that and way more right?


----------



## markrogo

It remains incomprehensible to me they are rolling this thing out at all. Yes, there are a few thousand die hards that want this. No, it is in no way satisfactory or state of the art or relevant or competitively important. Why not just wait a few more months and get this right at this point?

This is going to actually hurt Tivo's reputation further rather than help it.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I think all of the anti-Tivo folks have made their points. Now, How about leaving this forum to those of us who do have an interest in it and would like to discuss it further?


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Please discuss


----------



## Captain Spaulding

This is somewhat of a tough call for us at our house. We were die hard TiVo fans back in the day, but have become accustomed to the DirecTV DVRs. We don't use MRV and we would not mind the old GUI. So it would be kind of cool to go back to using a TiVo, but...and this is most likely the dealbreaker...we won't pay any more for it than we're paying for our current DirecTV DVRs. If we could just swap out out current DVRs for TiVos, that would be great, but I'm sure that won't be an option.


----------



## sigma1914

I WANT MORE said:


> I think all of the anti-Tivo folks have made their points. Now, How about leaving this forum to those of us who do have an interest in it and would like to discuss it further?


What's preventing you from discussing it?


----------



## ATARI

Maleman said:


> Another two year committment?


You better believe it!


----------



## bonscott87

Congrats to all those looking forward to the new Tivo box.

I'll keep my Uverse DVR.


----------



## I WANT MORE

sigma1914 said:


> What's preventing you from discussing it?


I think that you are a clever fella and got my point very clearly.


----------



## sigma1914

I WANT MORE said:


> I think that you are a clever fella and got my point very clearly.


OOOh, you mean you don't like people discussing all the negatives about it and only want the positive and pro-Tivo fans to post? A one sided discussion. Gotcha!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It doesn't have to be one-sided, just respectful


----------



## Jeremy W

ejjames said:


> Anyone know if these will require a phone connection to activate like the 10-250? Because my VoIP has never worked with this. Hopefully it will be like the HR22 in this regard.


That is totally a software issue, completely unrelated to the hardware. As ridiculous as the THR22 is, there is no way it's going to require a phone line for anything.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

I WANT MORE said:


> *I think that you are a clever fella* and got my point very clearly.


You're giving Sig too much credit. :lol:

Just joking Sigster

Bring on the TiVo!


----------



## sigma1914

Hutchinshouse said:


> You're giving Sig too much credit. :lol:
> 
> Just joking Sigster
> 
> Bring on the TiVo!


He's a Sooner fan, so he's used to respecting Longhorns fans since we usually beat OU.

As for Tivo...It's got my interest. Depending on the price and release date of the HR34 and the upcoming HDGUI, I've got some decisions to make.

I recently added TW Cable and tried a Tivo Premiere. That thing is a joke and I canceled before the 1st month, mainly because we couldn't get the tuning adapters to work. However, the HD UI is so half assed and worthless.


----------



## Jeremy W

sigma1914 said:


> Depending on the price and release date of the HR34 and the upcoming HDGUI


The HDGUI Access Fee should only be around $5/month. Maybe even a little less.


----------



## sigma1914

Jeremy W said:


> The HDGUI Access Fee should only be around $5/month. Maybe even a little less.


They wouldn't do that. They love fees, but for a HDGUI? :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

sigma1914 said:


> They wouldn't do that. They love fees, but for a HDGUI? :lol:


I know, I was just being ridiculous.


----------



## I WANT MORE

sigma1914 said:


> He's a Sooner fan, so he's used to respecting Longhorns fans since *we usually beat OU.*
> As for Tivo...It's got my interest. Depending on the price and release date of the HR34 and the upcoming HDGUI, I've got some decisions to make.
> 
> I recently added TW Cable and tried a Tivo Premiere. That thing is a joke and I canceled before the 1st month, mainly because we couldn't get the tuning adapters to work. However, the HD UI is so half assed and worthless.


*Uh, I think you better check recent history. *
On the Tivo front. I have (2) Premiers and have yet to have an issue. No tuning adapter. Have been using the HD UI since day 1 without fail. Half assed? Perhaps for now. Worthless? Hardly. 
I also have (2) HR24-500s which are great. Anything prior to that model is Junk. We'll see how the new D*Tivo software works on the 22.

And last but not least *BOOMER SOONER!!!*


----------



## sigma1914

I WANT MORE said:


> *Uh, I think you better check recent history. *
> On the Tivo front. I have (2) Premiers and have yet to have an issue. No tuning adapter. Have been using the HD UI since day 1 without fail. Half assed? Perhaps for now. Worthless? Hardly.
> I also have (2) HR24-500s which are great. Anything prior to that model is Junk. We'll see how the new D*Tivo software works on the 22.
> 
> And last but not least *BOOMER SOONER!!!*


Recent history...UT has beat OU 4 of the last 6. Overall history, UT leads the all-time series 59-41-5.

You're lucky you drequire tuning adapters like others on a SDV system. They're a pain. What good is a HDGUI when only some menus have it?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Jeremy W said:


> The HDGUI Access Fee should only be around $5/month. Maybe even a little less.


:lol:

For a second I got pissed off. :lol:


----------



## cypherx

Hutchinshouse said:


> :lol:
> 
> For a second I got pissed off. :lol:


I could tell by your avatar. Looks like you are ready to punch somebody. :lol:


----------



## I WANT MORE

sigma1914 said:


> Recent history...UT has beat OU 4 of the last 6. Overall history, UT leads the all-time series 59-41-5.QUOTE]
> 
> BIG 12 CONFERENCE CHAMPIONS
> Year Team Record
> 1996 Texas 6-2
> 1997 Nebraska 8-0
> 1998 Texas A&M 7-1
> 1999 Nebraska 7-1
> 2000 Oklahoma 8-0
> 2001 Colorado 7-1
> 2002 Oklahoma 6-2
> 2003 Kansas St. 6-2
> 2004 Oklahoma 8-0
> 2005 Texas 8-0
> 2006 Oklahoma 7-1
> 2007 Oklahoma 6-2
> 2008 Oklahoma 7-1
> 2009 Texas 8-0
> 2010 Oklahoma 6-2
> Note: Records are regular season conference records
> 
> BIG 12 CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES
> Date Result Site
> 12/7/96 Texas 37, Nebraska 27 St. Louis
> 12/6/97 Nebraska 54, Texas A&M 15 San Antonio
> 12/5/98 Texas A&M 36, Kansas St. 33 St. Louis
> 12/4/99 Nebraska 22, Texas 6 San Antonio
> 12/2/00 Oklahoma 27, Kansas St. 24 Kansas City
> 12/1/01 Colorado 39, Texas 37 Irving
> 12/7/02 Oklahoma 29, Colorado 7 Houston 12/6/03 Kansas St. 35, Oklahoma 7 Kansas City
> 12/4/04 Oklahoma 42, Colorado 3 Kansas City 12/3/05 Texas 70, Colorado 3 Houston
> 12/2/06 Oklahoma 21, Nebraska 7 Kansas City
> 12/1/07 Oklahoma 38, Missouri 17 San Antonio
> 12/6/08 Oklahoma 62, Missouri 21 Kansas City 12/5/09 Texas 13, Nebraska 12 Arlington
> 12/4/10 Oklahoma 23, Nebraska 20 Arlington


----------



## bidger

I thought you wanted to discuss the THR22-100.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

If you all want to discuss the TiVo go ahead. If you want to discuss your favorite sports team, there's a place somewhere else for that.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I knew that was coming but needed to defend my point/team. 
Sorry to everyone.............................. except Sigma


----------



## gatorbait2

Any idea if the peanut remote will be IR or RF?


----------



## Beerstalker

I would hope both. The receiver should have both built into it since it's just a HR22 with a sticker on the front. Were the older DirecTivo remotes RF? If so I would think this one woudl be too. If Tivo has never had a RF remote before, then I'm not sure they would start doing it now.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I think we've hit upon the entire delay!  The software on the TiVo actually has been ready for 14 months, they are still trying to fit the RF module into the peanut... 

(Just kidding, of course.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## gatorbait2

No the older remotes were only IR


----------



## hotspace

Call me a lazy lurker...but can someone paraphrase the last 26 pages please? Pro's and Con's?


----------



## Jeremy W

hotspace said:


> Call me a lazy lurker...but can someone paraphrase the last 26 pages please? Pro's and Con's?


Pro: It's a Tivo (con for some)
Con: It's a Tivo from 2003.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Pro: It's a Tivo (con for some)
> Con: It's a Tivo from 2003.


With DirecTV features such as mix channels added much later than 2003.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> With DirecTV features such as mix channels added much later than 2003.


Mix channels are available on current Tivos, you just don't have easy access to changing the sound and tuning to a channel. And it has VOD. Hooray.

If the current Tivo users actually gave a damn about these features, they probably would have upgraded to an HR2x already.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> Pro: It's a Tivo (con for some)
> Con: It's a Tivo from 2003.


Post of the day! Love it!


----------



## inkahauts

Jeremy W said:


> Pro: It's a Tivo (con for some)
> Con: It's a Tivo from 2003.


!rolling

Now that one I will give you props for.


----------



## litzdog911

Jeremy W said:


> Pro: It's a Tivo (con for some)
> Con: It's a Tivo from 2003.


Precious. :lol:


----------



## AJ500

Despite all its faults, I'll be getting the TiVo.

My wife has been using the TiVo for years. I have a SD-DVR80 and a HR24 in the family room. She loves the TiVo remote and GUI. She hates the DirecTV remote and GUI. When I replaced the old TV with a newer one with no S-Video inputs, I had to add a S-Video-to-HDMI converter.

The new TiVo from DirecTV works for her.


----------



## Jeremy W

AJ500 said:


> She loves the TiVo remote and GUI. She hates the DirecTV remote and GUI.


That's most likely because she had the warm Tivo blanket to run back to every time. That option has to be taken away for progress to occur. One thing I respect about Apple is their willingness to do just that. "Oh, you liked the way that feature worked before? Too bad. This new one is better, so deal with it."

As long as the new thing actually is better, that is. But in this case, the HR2x is better.


----------



## Maruuk

All I know is my 2003 Tivo ROCKED! Totally responsive, immediate results on every button push, a dedicated slo-mo that worked like a dream. Never a lost show, perfect video everytime. FLAWLESS.

My current HR24-500 is a sick joke. Takes 3-5 button pushes to get one response. I get double input all the time on single inputs. Almost impossible to manage. And the screen freezes and goes black every couple of weeks and the system has to be rebooted which takes 15 minutes. A complete and total piece of junk.

So yeah, there is a comparison between Tivo and D* hardware/software. One has proven to be uniformly excellent. The other landfill. Bring on the Tivo, NOW!!!

Unless it's as predicted: crappy old HR-21 hardware with old Tivo software. Tho even old Tivo software is light years ahead of D* garbage, HR-21's are epic failures. A Ferrari engine in a Yugo.

Manufacturing has begun. We'll know the brass tacks in October.


----------



## wingrider01

Maruuk said:


> All I know is my 2003 Tivo ROCKED! Totally responsive, immediate results on every button push, a dedicated slo-mo that worked like a dream. Never a lost show, perfect video everytime. FLAWLESS.
> 
> My current HR24-500 is a sick joke. Takes 3-5 button pushes to get one response. I get double input all the time on single inputs. Almost impossible to manage. And the screen freezes and goes black every couple of weeks and the system has to be rebooted which takes 15 minutes. A complete and total piece of junk.
> 
> So yeah, there is a comparison between Tivo and D* hardware/software. One has proven to be uniformly excellent. The other landfill. Bring on the Tivo, NOW!!!


the only good thing I can say about the tivo is that is goes to pieces really well when introduced to Mr and Mr's S. Wesson. Last one that was living inthe garage finally died and was replaced with a nice HR21 that interfaced perfectly with the MRV system that was just installed.


----------



## Jeremy W

Maruuk said:


> Unless it's as predicted: crappy old HR-21 hardware with old Tivo software. Tho even old Tivo software is light years ahead of D* garbage, HR-21's are epic failures. A Ferrari engine in a Yugo.


Don't worry, it's not an HR21. It's an HR22.


----------



## mkdtv21

Now that I've seen the video I can see the software is series 3 but now I'm curious if it does youtube and what the Directv On demand UI looks like on the Tivo. Also from the video it does not really reveal whether it has swivel search. Since the Tivo Central screen has the On Demand selection replaced with Directv On demand it probably won't have any Internet video services that the series 3 had such as web videos or music choice but hopefully youtube will be in it somehow. There's no technical limitation for youtube.


----------



## newsposter

next month, i'm beyond excited..then i can get rid of this crappy hr20 with it's stupid 50 SL limit and time warp delays in pressing the buttons  the only thing ill miss is the blue nightlite

http://www.slashgear.com/directv-to-get-tivo-dvrs-as-early-as-next-month-25174161/


----------



## chapel

cypherx said:


> Downgrade my HR24 to an older HR22 generation?
> Lose MRV and DirecTV2PC?
> Lose the DirecTV iPad app?
> Lose YouTube access?
> Lose remote programming via Directv.com, iphone app, ipad?
> Lose the upcoming DirecTV HD-UI that Mike White promised for Q4 of this year?
> Lose the upcoming Pandora and Social apps Mike White also touched on?
> Lose the fun in participating in the cutting edge program?
> Lose the RF remote?
> Lose IP Control?
> 
> All for what? Some blips and bloops and a nice reminiscing of obsolete equipment / UI for ole times sake?
> 
> No thanks. I see absolutely NO reason for this thing. I'm pretty sure it's coming out just to appease Tivo and ensure there are no quarrels over sharing IP.


can it record more than 50 series at a time? If so, sign me up. sick of juggling series every 3-4 months...
I also miss TiVo suggestions.
I don't use MRV or DirecTV2PC (my monitor isn't HDCP capable... and my laptop can't keep up with it.)
I don't use the DirecTV iPad app that much. maybe the first 2 weeks I used it.
I have a laptop hooked up to my TV for YouTube and 'media'
HD-UI is still a lot of speculation from what I can tell (Can it do more than 50 series?)
I don't want Pandora and Social apps on my TV... that's what my laptop is for.
Is no RF remote for sure? that would suck a little, but I have line of sight

I miss TiVo suggestions badly.


----------



## Maruuk

Being a man, I actually need a dedicated slo-mo button for sports. Like every other man. Will D* ever get that through their thick heads? Probably not!

Oh, the HR-22. That's probably even worse.

After 4 ^*&%^%$#@ years Tivo couldn't come up with new hardware???


----------



## cypherx

"chapel" said:


> I'm going to wait until both sets are on the market. a 50 SL limit is the current killer for me. Also, the ridiculously slow interface and the double input problem kinda piss me off too. (I'm on an HR22 though.)


I think that's a good idea. I'd just hate to see anyone spend money on this old TiVo and get locked into it when quite possibly DirecTV will have something MUCH better a month or two later.

We just don't know. Everything I've mentioned is speculation (like you said), but from reading Mike White's enthusiasm on it during the quarterly earnings call (and CNN interview), I am very optimistic about it and excited to see what they bring to the table.

Just looking out for ya, and who knows maybe you end up liking the TiVo more. Your call!


----------



## RobertE

Jeremy W said:


> Don't worry, it's not an HR21. It's an HR22.


The only difference between a HR21 and a HR22 is the drive size. So both are correct.


----------



## Jeremy W

Maruuk said:


> Being a man, I actually need a dedicated slo-mo button for sports. Like every other man. Will D* ever get that through their thick heads? Probably not!


Being a smarter man, I just use frame advance. It actually gives me control over what I'm seeing.


----------



## Jeremy W

RobertE said:


> The only difference between a HR21 and a HR22 is the drive size. So both are correct.


Both can't be correct, since they have different hard drives, and the one in the THR22 is the same as the one in the HR22. So it's an HR22, not an HR21.


----------



## wingrider01

newsposter said:


> next month, i'm beyond excited..then i can get rid of this crappy hr20 with it's stupid 50 SL limit and time warp delays in pressing the buttons  the only thing ill miss is the blue nightlite
> 
> http://www.slashgear.com/directv-to-get-tivo-dvrs-as-early-as-next-month-25174161/


Wonder how much the premium monthly charge is going to be for this unit


----------



## Jeremy W

wingrider01 said:


> Wonder how much the premium monthly charge is going to be for this unit


I'd expect it to be anywhere from $5-$10.


----------



## RunnerFL

Jeremy W said:


> Both can't be correct, since they have different hard drives, and the one in the THR22 is the same as the one in the HR22. So it's an HR22, not an HR21.


But an HR22 is just an HR21 with a bigger drive. Same processor, same chips, etc.


----------



## royrdsjr

Would the new DirecTiVo need B-Band Converters if someone didn't have SWM to hook it up? Sorry,if this question has been addressed before. I ask because even though it's supposed to be based on the HR22,I wondered if it would not need BBC's like the HR23 didn't?


----------



## Jeremy W

RunnerFL said:


> But an HR22 is just an HR21 with a bigger drive. Same processor, same chips, etc.


Holy hell, that's what I said. You can call it "an HR21 with the hard drive of an HR22" or you can just call it a damn HR22. *Because that's what it is.*


----------



## Jeremy W

royrdsjr said:


> Would the new DirecTiVo need B-Band Converters if someone didn't have SWM to hook it up? Sorry,if this question has been addressed before. I ask because even though it's supposed to be based on the HR22,I wondered if it would not need BBC's like the HR23 didn't?


The HR22 needs BBCs, so the THR22 will need BBCs.


----------



## RunnerFL

Jeremy W said:


> Holy hell, that's what I said. You can call it "an HR21 with the hard drive of an HR22" or you can just call it a damn HR22. *Because that's what it is.*


So going back to what Robert said "both are correct".


----------



## Jeremy W

RunnerFL said:


> So going back to what Robert said "both are correct".


Nope. Why not just call it an HR23 without wideband tuners while we're at it? Or an HR24 without built-in DECA and a different architecture? Really it's just a DVR, so why not call it a Motorola DCT3400 except everything's different?

It's an HR22. It's not an HR21. I don't know why this has to be so difficult, and the fact that this is even a point of contention is completely mind boggling.


----------



## RunnerFL

Jeremy W said:


> Nope. Why not just call it an HR23 without wideband tuners while we're at it? Or an HR24 without built-in DECA and a different architecture? Really it's just a DVR, so why not call it a Motorola DCT3400 except everything's different?
> 
> It's an HR22. It's not an HR21. I don't know why this has to be so difficult, and the fact that this is even a point of contention is completely mind boggling.


You're just contradicting yourself now.

It's an HR22 which is an HR21 with a bigger hard drive.


----------



## Draconis

Jeremy W said:


> Pro: It's a Tivo (con for some)
> Con: It's a Tivo from 2003.


!rolling
Can we immortalize that remark somehow?


----------



## Jeremy W

RunnerFL said:


> You're just contradicting yourself now.


I have said the same thing every time I've posted, so how you can claim I contradicted myself is a complete mystery to me.


----------



## RunnerFL

Jeremy W said:


> I have said the same thing every time I've posted, so how you can claim I contradicted myself is a complete mystery to me.


You agreed when I said an HR22 is just an HR21 with a bigger drive but then turned around saying it's not an HR21. Contradiction...


----------



## Jeremy W

RunnerFL said:


> You agreed when I said an HR22 is just an HR21 with a bigger drive but then turned around saying it's not an HR21. Contradiction...


It's not a contradiction at all. The HR22 is an *HR21 with a bigger hard drive.* That means *it is not an HR21, because it is different from an HR21 in at least one way.*

A pepperoni pizza is a cheese pizza with pepperonis on it. Does that mean a pepperoni pizza is a cheese pizza? *Not by any widely accepted definition of "cheese pizza."* They may share a base, but they're different things.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

Come on now, I think everyone gets the message. Let's get past this issue.


----------



## Araxen

Woohooo! I can't wait to ditch my slow as molasses HR20! Bring on the Tivo!!


----------



## Maruuk

_"Being a smarter man, I just use frame advance."_

Being an even smarter man, I was using frame advance long before you were. But you have to pound away at the frame advance button for longer sequences which is absurd and annoying, plus as I mentioned earlier, my input response is so random and sloppy that it's extremely difficult to get the jog to stop at the right place in the play to begin the frame fwap.

Like I said, Tivo take me away!


----------



## Maruuk

Speaking of speed, my various Tivos always changed channels INSTANTLY. Zero hesitation. Blammo, new channel.

My HR24 can easily take from 5 to 10 seconds to go from guide select to channel on-screen. Worst I've ever seen on any set-top box, ever.

D* makes useless junk. Always has, always will.


----------



## dwl2

Jeremy W said:


> Considering the fact that there's been software in the stream for the THR22 for months now, I think updating via satellite is highly likely.


Just curious, how do you know what software is in the stream? I did a Google search and found stream monitors, like the Stream Scope RM-40, which check the integrity and reliability of the transport streams, but don't tell what software is in the stream. After days of off & on research, I decided I'd just ask.

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## HoTat2

Maruuk said:


> Speaking of speed, my various Tivos always changed channels INSTANTLY. Zero hesitation. Blammo, new channel.
> 
> My HR24 can easily take from 5 to 10 seconds to go from guide select to channel on-screen. Worst I've ever seen on any set-top box, ever.
> 
> *D* makes useless junk. Always has, always will.*


Wow ... what can I say? :nono2:

My sister's HR24-500 (We've only been lucky enough to receive one) is lightning quick. All my other HD boxes, 2 HR22-100s, an HR21-200, and a H21-200 are only moderately so. All other features work fine as well with the exception of Media Share which granted is a wipe out.

But given the volatility of your complaints against DIRECTV, I'd recommend a lot more than just this upcoming crippled DTIVO, but since "DIRECTV makes useless junk," a whole new service provider as well.

Perhaps you should go for cable or FiOS with TIVO's CATV DVR?


----------



## HoTat2

dwl2 said:


> Just curious, how do you know what software is in the stream? I did a Google search and found stream monitors, like the Stream Scope RM-40, which check the integrity and reliability of the transport streams, but don't tell what software is in the stream. After days of off & on research, I decided I'd just ask.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave


http://www.redh.com/dtv/

Scroll down to the last entry, though right now the latest firmware version for the THR22-100, "0x0184," from transponder 3 is showing as "inactive" which means it is not presently spooling out in the transport stream.


----------



## cwpomeroy

"Jeremy W" said:


> I know, I was just being ridiculous.


I pay an HD fee, an MRV fee, a DVR fee..... I sadly don't rule out a fee for anything from these guys.....


----------



## wingrider01

Araxen said:


> Woohooo! I can't wait to ditch my slow as molasses HR20! Bring on the Tivo!!


and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the unit will be faster? Guess they have to show something different for the premium fee that is supposed to be charged for this unit. :lol:

No MRV = a HR16 with HD capabilities


----------



## newsposter

wingrider01 said:


> Wonder how much the premium monthly charge is going to be for this unit


i dont mind paying for the features that are most important to me...and the 50 limit and speed are all that i really care about.


----------



## davidpo

So disappointed the new tivo is built upon the pos hr-22.


----------



## nike5580

Looks like Solid Signal has a page ready for the new TiVo.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...High-Definition-MPEG4-HDDVR-(THR22)&c=DIRECTV Receivers&sku=


----------



## HoTat2

nike5580 said:


> Looks like Solid Signal has a page ready for the new TiVo.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...High-Definition-MPEG4-HDDVR-(THR22)&c=DIRECTV Receivers&sku=


Your link is broken;

Corrected;

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...n-MPEG4-HDDVR-(THR22)&c=DIRECTVReceivers&sku=


----------



## wingrider01

newsposter said:


> i dont mind paying for the features that are most important to me...and the 50 limit and speed are all that i really care about.


there has ben no indication of any increase in speed. It is a invalid comparison to take it back to the remembered speed of a Hr10-250, the one that just died that was in the garage was a dog for changing channels

The no MRV equates to a SD HR16, that puts it in the class of they pay me to use it. This is basicly a HR10-250 with Mpeg4, that is it - sadly out of date programming technology

With Whole home viewing ahve no problems what so ever with the 50 limit

Asfar as paying for the preceived service of this new device, will be interesting to see the posts when the price point is actually announced


----------



## Chuck W

Araxen said:


> Woohooo! I can't wait to ditch my slow as molasses HR20! Bring on the Tivo!!


I'm with you on that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I want a receiver that can record and do the BASICS well. Directv has lost sight of that. Give me a that has a speedy interface, fast channel changes and can do simple channel changes PROPERLY all the time. Don't take me to channel 26, then 5, when I type in channel 265. :new_cussi :nono2:

I'm in for at least one of these if it is as fast as the prior Tivos. Yea, losing MRV is a disappointing, but if it can do that basics properly and be fast, then that will make up for it.


----------



## sigma1914

It's going to be funny if the Tivo is the same speed or slower as other old units. I'm sure the Tivo lovers will ignore it because now they can have 50+ series links.


----------



## HoTat2

Perhaps I missed something over time here;

While I understand the slowness complaints against the older HR series boxes, when did the HR24s suddenly become pigs and slow as molasses in winter? 

As I said earlier, my sister's HR24-500 is still as quick as the proverbial cat here ...

When did its performance go south all of a sudden or are these really the over enthusiastic ravings of TIVO loyalists to justify buying what is clearly an inferior unit of yesteryear (at this point anyway) in their own minds?


----------



## wingrider01

Chuck W said:


> I'm with you on that.
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again, I want a receiver that can record and do the BASICS well. Directv has lost sight of that. Give me a that has a speedy interface, fast channel changes and can do simple channel changes PROPERLY all the time. Don't take me to channel 26, then 5, when I type in channel 265. :new_cussi :nono2:
> 
> I'm in for at least one of these if it is as fast as the prior Tivos. Yea, losing MRV is a disappointing, but if it can do that basics properly and be fast, then that will make up for it.


not sure what you are talking about, never expierenced it and my kids have never complained about it on theirs. The HR2X does basic well and gives advanced.


----------



## Chuck W

wingrider01 said:


> not sure what you are talking about, never expierenced it and my kids have never complained about it on theirs. The HR2X does basic well and gives advanced.


You must be extremely lucky to not experience that issue, considering all the complaints I've seen about that very issue. Both my HR20's and HR21 do it and my HR24 exhibits the same behaviour, but it has a fast enough processor where it can get that last digit displayed before the channel change timer runs down, so I don't see the issue really on the HR24. The bottom line is, it's poor programming on Directv's part. It KNOWS I typed in 3 digits because it eventually displays all 3. Why then does it try to change channels after only processing 2 of them, when it knows there is a 3rd digit in the buffer?


----------



## HoTat2

sigma1914 said:


> It's going to be funny if the Tivo is the same speed or slower as other old units. I'm sure the Tivo lovers will ignore it because now they can have 50+ series links.


But is there really a way for the THR22-100 to really be that much faster than the current HR22-100s given their identical hardware platforms? Any better or more efficient code writing notwithstanding, isn't the key to significant speed increase still a synergy between hardware and software?

You still have the same slower Broadcom processor in the DTIVO. Can allegedly superior DVR software from TIVO alone then make up for the inferior hardware for a really noticeable increase in operating speed?


----------



## RobertE

HoTat2 said:


> But is there really a way for the THR22-100 to really be that much faster than the current HR22-100s given their identical hardware platforms? Any better or more efficient code writing notwithstanding, isn't the key to significant speed increase still a synergy between hardware and software?
> 
> You still have the same slower Broadcom processor in the DTIVO. Can allegedly superior DVR software from TIVO alone then make up for the inferior hardware for a really noticeable increase in operating speed?


Could be a little faster, but anyone who thinks it's going to be insanely fast is in a serious state of denial and living in some fantasy world.

Comparing any HR2x or this box to HR10 is not vaild either. There is considerable more going on with the HR2x as far as sat switching and shear number of channels. Also toss in the additional load of Mpeg 4 for good measure.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maruuk said:


> Speaking of speed, my various Tivos always changed channels INSTANTLY. Zero hesitation. Blammo, new channel.
> 
> My HR24 can easily take from 5 to 10 seconds to go from guide select to channel on-screen. Worst I've ever seen on any set-top box, ever.
> 
> D* makes useless junk. Always has, always will.


Since there hasn't been an MPEG4 TiVo on DIRECTV, how can you compare the two? MPEG4 channel changes are different.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RunnerFL

Maruuk said:


> D* makes useless junk. Always has, always will.


Then why be a customer of theirs?


----------



## Araxen

wingrider01 said:


> and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the unit will be faster? Guess they have to show something different for the premium fee that is supposed to be charged for this unit. :lol:
> 
> No MRV = a HR16 with HD capabilities


I could care less about MRV.


----------



## Jeremy W

Araxen said:


> I could care less about MRV.


How much less?


----------



## dengland

Jeremy W said:


> They were *foolish enough to stick with SD *for this long, so I'm sure they'll be *foolish* enough to purchase the THR22.


Not quite the answer...

HR10-250 is my primary box. 95+% of what I record is OTA HD. I NEVER miss coming out of commercial when fast forwarding on that box.

4 seconds for Channel Up on my HR22-100 in my office. That won't be acceptable on the main TV. If I need to watch an HD channel not available on that box like ESPN, I change the input on the main TV to an HR20-100.

Hanging on to an HR10-250 really isn't foolish.

Hopefully, the new HD GUI will make enough of a difference on the HR2X boxes. Otherwise, I am going to have buy an HR24 outright when the HR10 breaks and I cannot repair it.


----------



## chscott

I will happily give up my current HR24 for a DirecTivo unit just so I don't have to ever hold this poorly designed DirecTV remote again. 

I have hit the Active button by accident one too many times...


----------



## Jeremy W

chscott said:


> I will happily give up my current HR24 for a DirecTivo unit just so I don't have to ever hold this poorly designed DirecTV remote again.


Why don't you get a better remote? The Harmony One is fantastic.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Jeremy W said:


> Why don't you get a better remote? The Harmony One is fantastic.


So is the peanut.


----------



## sigma1914

I WANT MORE said:


> So is the peanut.


Harmonys are far better. Who wants 5+ remotes?


----------



## Richierich

chscott said:


> I will happily give up my current HR24 for a DirecTivo unit just so I don't have to ever hold this poorly designed DirecTV remote again.
> 
> I have hit the Active button by accident one too many times...


I have had HR2X DVRs and Remotes for years now and have NEVER accidentally hit the Active Button!!!

Isn't that Strange???


----------



## I WANT MORE

sigma1914 said:


> Harmonys are far better. Who wants 5+ remotes?


I have a harmony around here somewhere. Currently I am looking at 5 remotes and a keyboard for the Logitech Review. :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

I WANT MORE said:


> So is the peanut.


I'd rather use the DirecTV remote than the peanut. Horrible design.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

richierich said:


> I have had HR2X DVRs and Remotes for years now and have NEVER accidentally hit the Active Button!!!
> 
> Isn't that Strange???


I have a programmable and it doesn't even have an Active Button. 

Mike


----------



## I WANT MORE

Jeremy W said:


> I'd rather use the DirecTV remote than the peanut. Horrible design.


The peanut remote has won every single award given for remotes for the last 10 years. Look it up.

I made that up.


----------



## RobertE

richierich said:


> I have had HR2X DVRs and Remotes for years now and have NEVER accidentally hit the Active Button!!!
> 
> Isn't that Strange???


Spatial awareness is wonderfull thing.


----------



## seern

Active button??? I use it so infrequently that I do not even know its there when I use my remote so muscle memory ignores it.


----------



## wingrider01

Jeremy W said:


> How much less?


or rather how much more are they willing to pay for less?


----------



## Sim-X

davidpo said:


> So disappointed the new tivo is built upon the pos hr-22.


No kiddin, what is wrong with DTV? That's like google releasing Android 4.0 ice cream sandwich on the G1. It's just stupid, who wants pos hardware? POS hardware just makes for an awful experience on any device. I would pay double for a DVR that had sweet hardware in it. At least give people a choice. For as much as this got delayed I was expecting it to be a home run, looks like a big pile of poo 2 me. Crappy hardware, no mrv support, I'll keep my HR24. DTV must have learned about hardware from HP and look how great they did with WebOS. Oh wait they drove it into the ground. I think HTC or Samsung should get into the set top business, they understand high end hardware.


----------



## harsh

davidpo said:


> So disappointed the new tivo is built upon the pos hr-22.


Since the HR22 was the state-of-the-art (for cost reduction) when this project started, that's surely what they were basing their work on.


----------



## gully_foyle

Hmmm ... if this is such a bad deal, and uses obsolete hardware and obsolete firmware, why do you suppose it will cost more? Maybe it will cost less, or maybe there will be a new fee for those continuing to use the "advanced" HR2x boxes.

At the very least you'll save the MRV fee.


----------



## sigma1914

gully_foyle said:


> Hmmm ... if this is such a bad deal, and uses obsolete hardware and obsolete firmware, why do you suppose it will cost more? Maybe it will cost less, or maybe there will be a new fee for those continuing to use the "advanced" HR2x boxes.
> 
> At the very least you'll save the MRV fee.


You will only save on the MRV if you don't want other units to continue having MRV.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sim-X said:


> No kiddin, what is wrong with DTV? That's like google releasing Android 4.0 ice cream sandwich on the G1. It's just stupid, who wants pos hardware?


The HR22 hardware is almost identical to the hardware in the Tivo HD.


----------



## brant

Sixto said:


> New DirecTV TiVo Launches Next Month: http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-08/new-directv-tivo-launches-next-month/
> 
> "Further, a few unconfirmed reports suggest DirecTV distributors should be receiving product on or about September 25th."​


@ 3:40 in the video, presenter is talking about the 'great directv HD' and they're watching a tube tv.


----------



## JBernardK

Jeremy W said:


> The HR22 hardware is almost identical to the hardware in the Tivo HD.


It's not the hardware in the HR22 that sucks, its the software. The TiVo HD should be just fine.


----------



## HoTat2

JBernardK said:


> It's not the hardware in the HR22 that sucks, its the software. * The TiVo HD should be just fine.*


But as was commented on earlier, how do you really know it "should be just fine" yet?

TIVO has never before developed DVR software for any Ka/Ku band MPEG-2/4 SD/HD IRDs, nor SWiM, nor any of DIRECTV's other advanced receiver features.

So how do you really know it will be that much better?

We know MRV certainly won't be ...


----------



## wingrider01

HoTat2 said:


> But as was commented on earlier, how do you really know it "should be just fine" yet?
> 
> TIVO has never before developed DVR software for any Ka/Ku band MPEG-2/4 SD/HD IRDs, nor SWiM, nor any of DIRECTV's other advanced receiver features.
> 
> So how do you really know it will be that much better?
> 
> We know MRV certainly won't be ...


because it has the infamous "TIVO" logo on it, so it will automagicly be better.

As far as cost comment on in an earlier post asking why should it cost more - it was reported when the agreement was release that it would be a premium device / service and carry a surcharge for those that want it


----------



## Davenlr

wingrider01 said:


> because it has the infamous "TIVO" logo on it, so it will automagicly be better.


Hope so, because my HR24 is twice as fast as my Premier.


----------



## chapel

one of my friends mentioned that with this new TiVo you can't watch 2 programs at once or record one live and watch another live?

is this confirmed?


----------



## sigma1914

chapel said:


> one of my friends mentioned that with this new TiVo you can't watch 2 programs at once or record one live and watch another live?
> 
> is this confirmed?


:lol: It's a dual tuner DVR.


----------



## flatus5

I got a DirecTV R10 sent out as a replacement receiver for one of my genuine DirecTV products. It proudly bears the Tivo label. And, since the day I got it, it has been a pathetic, unsupported, POS. 

I have no reason to believe any new venture with Tivo will turn out differently. That is, with a bunch of orphaned hardware in users' homes.


----------



## I WANT MORE

flatus5 said:


> I got a DirecTV R10 sent out as a replacement receiver for one of my genuine DirecTV products. It proudly bears the Tivo label. And, since the day I got it, it has been a pathetic, unsupported, POS.
> 
> I have no reason to believe any new venture with Tivo will turn out differently. That is, with a bunch of orphaned hardware in users' homes.


Thanks for the info. I guess since your "R10" is such a POS I have decided I am no longer interested in the THR22 as I'm sure they are exactly the same. Thanks again for helping me make up my mind.


----------



## spartanstew

chapel said:


> one of my friends mentioned that with this new TiVo you can't watch 2 programs at once or record one live and watch another live?
> 
> is this confirmed?


That was confirmed 10 years ago.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

chapel said:


> one of my friends mentioned that with this new TiVo you can't watch 2 programs at once or record one live and watch another live?
> 
> is this confirmed?


As far as I know you *will* be able to watch 2 programs at once or record one live and watch another live. It's still a dual tuner DVR. It won't have the additional features of the DVR+ but it will have the standard TiVo features.

Mike


----------



## harsh

spartanstew said:


> That was confirmed 10 years ago.


Didn't that change in the ensuing years?

It is deceptive to say that any current DIRECTV DVR can present two programs at once given that it requires additional hardware and subscription to a "service".


----------



## spartanstew

harsh said:


> Didn't that change in the ensuing years?
> 
> It is deceptive to say that any current DIRECTV DVR can present two programs at once given that it requires additional hardware and subscription to a "service".


I don't think it changed, and I don't see the deception when you're talking about capability.

Would it be equally as deceptive to state that they receive satellite programming? Cause you need additional hardware and a subscription for that too.


----------



## hotspace

Here’s my take...the take of a daily Tivo Driver. Currently I have 3 Tivo's. A series 2 with standard Cable. An HD with a cable card. And, a premier HD with the Tivo Expander HD. My experience with the HD menu setup is less than lackluster. 
When the HD menu is accessed, the program you are watching jumps to the top right corner of the screen and most the time this causes LAG. Navigating the menus are usually fairly snappy...however, the lag of the program jumping up to a (PIG) (picture in guide) (thank you Harsh) style display is extremely annoying to my eyes. I actually can't stand it. This is the reason I choose to stay with the SD menu system. It's snappy...quick and trouble free. Occasionally when navigating to a menu that defaults to the HD it bogs down....but that is rare. 

If the Directv tivo can provide me the ability to watch PPV's (I can't do that on a cablecard (CC) ), stream netflix, and continue to transfer recordings between my Tivo's and stream movies from my pyTivo software...I'm in for possible 2 units. However, if they can't...I'll have to opt out.

Sorry for my rant...but I appreciate everyone’s opinions. 

Especially the Pro/Con ... that was priceless!!


----------



## ATARI

hotspace said:


> Here's my take...the take of a daily Tivo Driver. Currently I have 3 Tivo's. A series 2 with standard Cable. An HD with a cable card. And, a premier HD with the Tivo Expander HD. My experience with the HD menu setup is less than lackluster.
> When the HD menu is accessed, the program you are watching jumps to the top right corner of the screen and most the time this causes LAG. Navigating the menus are usually fairly snappy...however, the lag of the program jumping up to a (PIP) style display is extremely annoying to my eyes. I actually can't stand it. This is the reason I choose to stay with the SD menu system. It's snappy...quick and trouble free. Occasionally when navigating to a menu that defaults to the HD it bogs down....but that is rare.
> 
> If the Directv tivo can provide me the ability to watch PPV's (I can't do that on a cablecard (CC) ), stream netflix, and continue to transfer recordings between my Tivo's and stream movies from my pyTivo software...I'm in for possible 2 units. However, if they can't...I'll have to opt out.
> 
> Sorry for my rant...but I appreciate everyone's opinions.
> 
> Especially the Pro/Con ... that was priceless!!


The DirecTiVo will not have Netflix.


----------



## harsh

spartanstew said:


> Would it be equally as deceptive to state that they receive satellite programming? Cause you need additional hardware and a subscription for that too.


A DIRECTV subscription is obviously required to receive DIRECTV programming whether you intend to record it or not. Additional hardware is not required to record two programs at once on the R10 or the new TiVo.

DVR "service" is required (probably higher for the new TiVo) but that still doesn't allow a current DIRECTV receiver to present two independent streams all by its lonesome. For that, you would have to be using a HR2x, subscribe to Whole-Home DVR "service" and be watching through a secondary receiver.

Like DIRECTV, I use the term "service" to refer to something that is built into the equipment but DIRECTV demands a fee to use it.


----------



## harsh

hotspace said:


> Navigating the menus are usually fairly snappy...however, the lag of the program jumping up to a (PIP) style display is extremely annoying to my eyes.


It is customary to distinguish between PIP and PIG (Picture In Guide) as PIP is not available on most STBs but PIG is. From a technical standpoint, laying graphics around a picture is much "simpler" than laying a moving picture into another moving picture.


----------



## mattnboise

Jeremy W said:


> I'd expect it to be anywhere from $5-$10.


If that were the fee I wonder if it will be waived for Lifetime DVR service.


----------



## hotspace

harsh said:


> It is customary to distinguish between PIP and PIG (Picture In Guide) as PIP is not available on most STBs but PIG is. From a technical standpoint, laying graphics around a picture is much "simpler" than laying a moving picture into another moving picture.


I realize this thread is speaking exclusively about the Directivo...however my comments regarding the slow PIG of the HD menu's is directed exclusively at the Tivo Premier. The Premier Tvio, supposedly, has a dual processor MB. I remember reading that currently only 1 processor is being utilized and future SW updates will utilize the second processor. This is only a rumor...I can't validate. I also realize this might be consider hijacking....I simply wanted to offer more info on my original statement.


----------



## HoTat2

hotspace said:


> ... If the Directv tivo can provide me the ability to watch PPV's (I can't do that on a cablecard (CC) ), stream netflix, and continue to transfer recordings between my Tivo's and stream movies from my pyTivo software...I'm in for possible 2 units. However, if they can't...I'll have to opt out.
> 
> Sorry for my rant...but I appreciate everyone's opinions.
> 
> Especially the Pro/Con ... that was priceless!!


Watch PPVs - Yes

Stream Netflix - No

Transfer Recordings between TIVO units - A definite No

Stream from pyTIVO software - Not sure, if it's compatible with the "Media Share" feature its possible assuming TIVO even implements it, but wouldn't bank on it.

Not very impressive is it? ... :nono2:


----------



## davidpo

harsh said:


> Since the HR22 was the state-of-the-art (for cost reduction) when this project started, that's surely what they were basing their work on.


When the hr-24 came out they could have simply moved the platform over,or better yet designed their own box. If the HR22 was state-of-the-art guess my 722 from dish must have been future tech. The Tivo was shoved on the hr-22 because directv knew the hr-22 was a pos no other reason.


----------



## wingrider01

davidpo said:


> When the hr-24 came out they could have simply moved the platform over,or better yet designed their own box. If the HR22 was state-of-the-art guess my 722 from dish must have been future tech. The Tivo was shoved on the hr-22 because directv knew the hr-22 was a pos no other reason.


Suspect that the truth is the code was "shoved" on HR22 because at the time the original specs where written and signed off on the HR22 was the latest and greatest - remember this fiasco has been going on for what about 3 years? :lol:


----------



## EricRobins

At the risk of enraging the wrath of tens of TiVo lovers (myself being one until my HR10 was replaced), can someone please explain what advantage this new DTiVo will have over my HR20 or HR24?

If its the old TiVo interface (even upgraded to HD), BFD!

And a higher price? 

I must be missing something.


----------



## chapel

Mike Bertelson said:


> As far as I know you *will* be able to watch 2 programs at once or record one live and watch another live. It's still a dual tuner DVR. It won't have the additional features of the DVR+ but it will have the standard TiVo features.
> 
> Mike


what 'other features' of the DVR+?
all I want is to be able to record two shows at once and watch one recorded show (or record two shows at once and watch one of them while it's recording)
which I can do with my current HR22 and I could do with my previous DirecTiVos


----------



## HoTat2

davidpo said:


> When the hr-24 came out they could have simply moved the platform over,or better yet designed their own box. If the HR22 was state-of-the-art guess my 722 from dish must have been future tech. *The Tivo was shoved on the hr-22 because directv knew the hr-22 was a pos no other reason*.


While I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call the HR22 platform a "POS" (I have two here that work OK ), even if true if you were in DIRECTV's shoes ... well... wouldn't you? 

I mean this points to the crux of one of TIVO's central problems as a business. They have to work with service providers, CATV or satellite, who are trying to market their own boxes. And thereby have no real great interest or incentive beyond mere rhetoric to help TIVO produce a box which is truly competitive if not superior to their own.


----------



## eswalker

I have three HR24's. At any point in time, they all experience all around slow performance. I have an HR24-500 that seems possessed. Entering channels on the remote is a crap shoot. You never know what you are going to get. Before everyone starts complaining that I'm having system problems, I have an HR20-100 that is rock solid. Over the last several software updates, my receivers have gotten slower. Some of you who have not experienced these kinds of issues are lucky.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This is not a thread about HR24s or whether or not the HR22 was a "POS." I will, however, say that the HR22 does have much of the same hardware as the TiVo Series 3 and that may have been a factor in choosing it.


----------



## ATARI

EricRobins said:


> At the risk of enraging the wrath of tens of TiVo lovers (myself being one until my HR10 was replaced), can someone please explain what advantage this new DTiVo will have over my HR20 or HR24?
> 
> If its the old TiVo interface (even upgraded to HD), BFD!
> 
> And a higher price?
> 
> I must be missing something.


That's pretty much it. You will get a peanut remote and no 50 series limit. But you will also not get MRV.

For extreme TiVo fans only, IMHO.


----------



## Richierich

ATARI said:


> That's pretty much it. You will get a peanut remote and no 50 series limit. But you will also not get MRV.
> 
> For extreme TiVo fans only, IMHO.


GREAT POST!!!!

For TiVo FANS Only!!! :lol:


----------



## hotspace

> I mean this points to the crux of one of TIVO's central problems as a business. They have to work with service providers, CATV or satellite, who are trying to market their own boxes. And thereby have no real great interest or incentive beyond mere rhetoric to help TIVO produce a box which is truly competitive if not superior to their own.


I guess it would kind of be like taking your home grown stuff with you to the dealer and asking if the dealer wouldn't mind peddling your stuff along with his. <-- make sense? And then, the dealer...being concerned with patents/legal problems...felt obligated, so he agreed.

I'm that Tivo guy that you all know. I have "brand loyalty". I hate cable...or should I say I hate how I have this top of the line Tivo that does HD and everything but I only get maybe 20 channels exclusively dedicated to HD. It drives me insane. Insane enough that I'm considering this Direct Tivo as an option.


----------



## EntropyByDesign

EricRobins said:


> At the risk of enraging the wrath of tens of TiVo lovers (myself being one until my HR10 was replaced), can someone please explain what advantage this new DTiVo will have over my HR20 or HR24?


There doesn't appear to be any advantage. I'm a new Directv subscriber with an HR24-500. I was a Tivo user for several years before switching to Dish and then Directv. I can assure you that the HR24 has the same features as the Tivo I used. I simply don't see any reason to switch or pay extra for something that Directv already supplies.


----------



## ejjames

EricRobins said:


> At the risk of enraging the wrath of tens of TiVo lovers (myself being one until my HR10 was replaced), can someone please explain what advantage this new DTiVo will have over my HR20 or HR24?
> 
> If its the old TiVo interface (even upgraded to HD), BFD!
> 
> And a higher price?
> 
> I must be missing something.


The #1 most important reason. I will not have to teach my wife the directv system If you saw how my wife reacts to it, believe me, it's worth its weight n gold


----------



## harsh

EricRobins said:


> At the risk of enraging the wrath of tens of TiVo lovers (myself being one until my HR10 was replaced), can someone please explain what advantage this new DTiVo will have over my HR20 or HR24?


Searching for content is probably easier (though somewhat less sophisticated) and with suggestions, some of the content will likely find you.

There's hope that CIG works and/or can be edited.

There's probably also a hope (but it will likely be shattered) that the DIRECTiVo will allow "learning" of available OTA with the AM21(N); something DIRECTV thus far seems bound and determined to not implement in their in-house product.

I'm sure many are hoping for a few other items on the HR2x wish list as well.


----------



## harsh

hotspace said:


> The Premier Tvio, supposedly, has a dual processor MB.


Consumer DVRs use dedicated DVR chip sets with most of the non-housekeeping tasks (like PIP, scaling, graphics, text and decryption/decompression) done with minimal involvement of the RISC CPU. The CPU handles dispatching user input, scheduling and the housekeeping tasks associated with maintaining the guide and file system.

I doubt the rumor you heard has much validity.


----------



## aziz

Can it still be OWN-ed? Then, welcome to the hack-able units of OLD! :evilgrin:


----------



## ATARI

aziz said:


> Can it still be OWN-ed? Then, welcome to the hack-able units of OLD! :evilgrin:


It will be leased and locked down.


----------



## hotspace

Has there been a comparison between the best HD Directv receiver and Tivo? I'd be interested to see a side by side comparison to help make an educated decision.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

hotspace said:


> Has there been a comparison between the best HD Directv receiver and Tivo? I'd be interested to see a side by side comparison to help make an educated decision.


I am sure there will be a side by side comparison done as soon as the new TiVo is available to us. Until then it would just be speculation.


----------



## bonscott87

Sorry for you guys that have significant others that can't deal with change. I've moved my wife from Tivo to DirecTV DVR to Windows Media Center and now to Uverse DVR with very little trouble. Just 5-10 minutes of "training" and she's all over it using it like we've had it for years. Should could care less what the UI is, so long as she can watch CSI in HD she is a happy camper. Maybe I'm lucky.


----------



## ChicagoBlue

TiVo has no one to blame but themselves for this product in terms of the lack of features. TiVo had the opportunity to build to the latest DTV spec but they chose not to, thus the lack of MRV and other features. And yes, you can bet there will be an extra charge for TiVo because TiVo will certainly charge a royalty fee to DTV that will be considerable (several dollars per at least).


----------



## CuriousMark

harsh said:


> Consumer DVRs use dedicated DVR chip sets with most of the non-housekeeping tasks (like PIP, scaling, graphics, text and decryption/decompression) done with minimal involvement of the RISC CPU. The CPU handles dispatching user input, scheduling and the housekeeping tasks associated with maintaining the guide and file system.
> 
> I doubt the rumor you heard has much validity.


The chipset in the premiere does indeed have two processor cores. Either could be used in exactly the ways you are describing. Currently only one of the two cores is enabled according to folks over at the TiVo Community Forums. So far all I have seen there is speculation as to why the second core was not enabled. So it is not a rumor, but it doesn't matter anyway.


----------



## Tubaman-Z

bonscott87 said:


> Sorry for you guys that have significant others that can't deal with change. I've moved my wife from Tivo to DirecTV DVR to Windows Media Center and now to Uverse DVR with very little trouble. Just 5-10 minutes of "training" and she's all over it using it like we've had it for years. Should could care less what the UI is, so long as she can watch CSI in HD she is a happy camper. Maybe I'm lucky.


My wife deals with change just fine (I'm the one who likes the status quo). But as we have both a D*TiVo and an HR20 that we interact with daily the differences are constantly experienced. Within the past month she commented to me that she really preferred the D*TiVo interface.


----------



## Tom Robertson

wdo42 said:


> 100% incorrect, DirecTV is the one to blame, they kept on changing with platform and what the hardware would be, so TIVO had to keep redoing everything.
> 
> DirecTV can not handle if TIVO was on on their HR34 and/or HR24/future25 because when you combine DirecTV's fuctions with TIVO'S (newest) people would see how inferior DirecTV's DVR is.
> 
> This is the reason why DirecTV never bough TIVO and only bought ReplayTV because TIVO was the superior brand and DVR the public and investors would have said, why do you need aTIVO your stuff is superior as DirecTV wrongly claims


There were no platform changes during this time period. TiVo just took so long that DIRECTV has introduced their own platform changes--but TiVo is still using the original one. (That was current at the time things got started.)

TiVo, as I understand it, had a poison pill. They could not be purchased at the time. (And a fairly high market value as compared to today.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> There were no platform changes during this time period. TiVo just took so long that DIRECTV has introduced their own platform changes--but TiVo is still using the original one. (That was current at the time things got started.)
> 
> TiVo, as I understand it, had a poison pill. They could not be purchased at the time. (And a fairly high market value as compared to today.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yet despite reality of Tivo being the slacker in the lengthy journey...some people seem in denial enough to want to blame everyone but them.

More impotant...after all this time, it has become the non-event of the decade.


----------



## Jeremy W

wdo42 said:


> No it was not TIVO dragging their feet, it was DirecTV because TIVO had the software they are using on the 1st unit for years, but cause of DirecTV's games they have to go with it and not the superior latest platform they have.


So first it was DirecTV changing the platform multiple times, and now it was DirecTV's games forcing Tivo to stick to the original platform? You can't even keep your own BS straight, how do you expect anyone else to believe it?


----------



## sigma1914

wdo42 said:


> They had no real actual poisin pill, that was an angle used by DirecTV to be the reason they did not buy them (reality was, investors and people would be like, why do you need DirecTV it would make their inhouse unit look like junk)
> 
> No it was not TIVO dragging their feet, it was DirecTV because TIVO had the software they are using on the 1st unit for years, but cause of DirecTV's games they have to go with it and not the superior latest platform they have.
> 
> ...


If Tivo software is so superior, as you claim, then how come they're struggling so much to stay relevant? Why wouldn't a major provider scoop them up to design a DVR? Everything they've seem to do has been a failure or half azzed product.


----------



## Jeremy W

sigma1914 said:


> If Tivo software is so superior, as you claim, then how come they're struggling so much to stay relevant? Why wouldn't a major provider scoop them up to design a DVR? Everything they've seem to do has been a failure or half azzed product.


Come on, you know that the failure of all their other products is also the fault of DirecTV! It's common sense.


----------



## sigma1914

Jeremy W said:


> Come on, you know that the failure of all their other products is also the fault of DirecTV! It's common sense.


:lol::lol: My bad. Evil DirecTV!!! :mad2:


----------



## Shades228

wdo42 said:


> They had no real actual poisin pill, that was an angle used by DirecTV to be the reason they did not buy them (reality was, investors and people would be like, why do you need DirecTV it would make their inhouse unit look like junk)
> 
> No it was not TIVO dragging their feet, it was DirecTV because TIVO had the software they are using on the 1st unit for years, but cause of DirecTV's games they have to go with it and not the superior latest platform they have.
> 
> Will moderators here ever stop shilling for DirecTV and lobbying for jobs and hide that from the members ?


First off the poison pill is real or Charlie would have bought TiVo rather than fight them in court because it would have been cheaper. Do some research before posting that something doesn't exist. DIRECTV would have purchased them because it would have been cheaper than going in house. The poison pill made it not so. Look at every investor meeting ever and count how many times TiVo has been talked about. Investor's don't care about that they care about making money. DIRECTV has done that well enough without TIVO. TIVO on the other hand has done nothing but lose market share and flub roll outs, lookup the comcast roll out, so from an investor's standpoint you're not going to win this argument.

http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=3928&mid=10441941&pt=msg

Second the software that they have still had to be written for the new chip. These aren't x86 chips where instruction codes are always backwards compatible.

Now you could do some real research if you wanted to but you don't and just want to blame DIRECTV because you're a TiVo fan. Here's the nutshell version. DIRECTV has their own platform and therefor doesn't need to be concerned if the TiVo comes out. So TiVo already knows they missed the window. They chose to put more resources into other projects that had a better chance of getting them market share. Hence the TiVo Premier and the attempted Comcast roll out.

Saying the TiVo Premier UI is the best thing out there is of course your oppinion however I know many avid TiVo fans that hate that UI with a passion.

TiVo has made very poor business decisions which has put the company in a situation where they cannot compete anymore. To blame DIRECTV is simply silly. If they are so amazing then why are they not the DVR of choice for every company out there except DIRECTV?

It's ok to like a product and to want it. To come here and post blatently incorrect information which has been discussed in this thread already just makes you look like those people you're attempting to flame.

If you think being a moderator at a forum and speaking positively about a company will get you a job then I would suggest the following:

Go to a website registrar and register a domain name perhaps something like t1v0l33tn3zz.com and then post nothing but amazing things about TiVo all day long. See how long it takes for them to give you an office. Please give us an annual update on how that works for you. I'm sure it would be much cheaper than the education and experience the people who have gotten jobs with DIRECTV who happened to be moderator's here paid through their life.


----------



## CuriousMark

Tom Robertson said:


> TiVo, as I understand it, had a poison pill. They could not be purchased at the time. (And a fairly high market value as compared to today.)


A poison pill would only prevent a hostile takeover. TiVo could have been purchased if both companies agreed to a price. The poison pill expires soon, a high enough hostile bid could work when that happens.


----------



## CuriousMark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yet despite reality of Tivo being the slacker in the lengthy journey...some people seem in denial enough to want to blame everyone but them.
> 
> More impotant...after all this time, it has become the non-event of the decade.


And many here want to blame it all on TiVo, and keep doing so over and over even when shown that DirecTV had some likely part in it. Saying so is not blaming everyone else, just demanding intellectual honesty.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> And many here want to blame it all on TiVo, and keep doing so over and over even when shown that DirecTV had some likely part in it.


The thing is, Tivo has proven that they're perfectly capable of screwing up projects all on their own. There's no reason to believe DirecTV tried to sabotage Tivo, especially since Tivo never said anything about it.


----------



## CuriousMark

Shades228 said:


> Second the software that they have still had to be written for the new chip. These aren't x86 chips where instruction codes are always backwards compatible.


However the chipset is fairly close to the one in the TiVo HD, so much of the code base for basic things should have been failry compatible. However, some of the changes that DirecTV wanted, such as free space indicator, are things TiVo had shied away from implementing on that code base for unclear, but very real reasons. TiVo had said that code base was fast becoming unmaintainable and that was one reason TiVo redesigned their software from scratch on the TiVo Premiere.



> They chose to put more resources into other projects that had a better chance of getting them market share. Hence the TiVo Premier and the attempted Comcast roll out.


This I agree with. The TiVo Premiere when it came out was version 1.0, a complete new code base designed from the ground up to be maintainable and modern. TiVo at that time cut way back on a lot of things trying to reduce costs and I believe this DirecTV project took a hit compared with those others. It was only after beating Dish and going on a hiring binge that this project finally seemed to gain some speed.



> Saying the TiVo Premier UI is the best thing out there is of course your oppinion however I know many avid TiVo fans that hate that UI with a passion.


And many that like it quite a lot. I think the same can be said for the DirecTV product line UI too. In general the new TiVo HD UI is liked better and the fact that DirecTV is making a new HD UI for their line indicates that the advantages of a colorful, full screen real estate using UI are worth pursuing. I am sure when it comes out, there will still be people that will prefer one over the other, it is after all a matter of personal taste to a very large extent.



> TiVo has made very poor business decisions which has put the company in a situation where they cannot compete anymore. To blame DIRECTV is simply silly. If they are so amazing then why are they not the DVR of choice for every company out there except DIRECTV?


Or been taken advantage of by many larger companies with much deeper pockets that forced them into decisions that should not have been necessary. It is a matter of perspective isn't it? In reality and a lesson that TiVo needed to learn is that people buy the television service not the DVR. TiVo seems to understand that now and is selling to service providers now, so I argue their business decisions are getting bettter. Now that they have some IP leverage to use to level their negotiating position, they are also making deals that are less bad for themselves too. The New 3 tuner Virgin DVR is the DVR of choice for at least Virgin, and some others going forward.

So I would contend that TiVo simply made a bad deal here with DirecTV and are playing it out. I don't think this is a great deal for DirecTV either, but they can afford to not care much, they have what they wanted, IP protection.



> It's ok to like a product and to want it. To come here and post blatently incorrect information which has been discussed in this thread already just makes you look like those people you're attempting to flame.


 You have to admit that some of the responses or rebuttals by pro-DirecTV posters also contained incorrect information which has been discussed in this thread. Yes, they are looking like each other. ;-)

It is too bad that the marketing guys at TiVo and DirecTV didn't come up with something like the Virgin box, I think it would have been well received by everyone.


----------



## Brennok

sigma1914 said:


> Why wouldn't a major provider scoop them up to design a DVR? Everything they've seem to do has been a failure or half azzed product.


Because until something like Allvid comes along which opens the market for nearly any company to easily make a universal DVR that works on both cable and satellite, no one else wants to get into the market. Look up the Steve Jobs interview on why Apple wasn't going to make a DVR or STB.

There is a slim hope with AllVid, but knowing how the FCC works it will be a failure and you still won't see the equivalent of the smartphone explosion and innovation with DVRs and STBs.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> It is too bad that the marketing guys at TiVo and DirecTV didn't come up with something like the Virgin box, I think it would have been well received by everyone.


I also doubt we'd be talking about the possibility of it being released in 2011.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> The thing is, Tivo has proven that they're perfectly capable of screwing up projects all on their own.


But this is an example of jumping to a bashing conclusion that has been discussed and set straight here before on many occasions.



> There's no reason to believe DirecTV tried to sabotage Tivo, especially since Tivo never said anything about it.


Nowhere did I say or imply that DirecTV is trying to sabotage anything, and I hate bullies trying to put words in my mouth that were never there. That does not make DirecTV blameless in the delays and final feature list being underwhelming. They could have allowed TiVo's MRV system until their streaming version could be completed, but they didn't. They have reasons they considered good to not do so, sa you and I have discussed, but that decision is still responsible at least in part for why there is no MRV. Don't confuse responsibility and blame with intent, DirecTV almost certainly had no intent to sabotage the product. They however did have intent to make decisions that make sense for their company that were not helpful to the project from a customer perspective. Which is all well and good. All I am saying is to not then bash TiVo and blame it all only on TiVo. They worked together on this and should share the responsibility for how well it works.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> I also doubt we'd be talking about the possibility of it being released in 2011.


The Virgon box was based on the Premiere and came to market on schedule about a year after the deal was signed. It is a success and primarily responsible for turning around TiVo's MSO subscriber numbers. By every measure it is a success. The DirecTV deal predated the ability to do a box like that by years. The Premiere and its new code base didn't exist yet. So why the slam? It is uncalled for and emotional.

If DirecTV were to sign a deal for a follow on box today, and negotiated all the features with the hardware and software guys in the room, not just marketing guys, I would expect the result to be done in about a year, if international satellite deal hardware and software designs could be leveraged, maybe a little longer if not.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

CuriousMark said:


> So I would contend that TiVo simply made a bad deal here with DirecTV and are playing it out. I don't think this is a great deal for DirecTV either, but they can afford to not care much, they have what they wanted, IP protection.


The first step of any 12 step program is getting past denial, and its obvious that Tivo-holics struggle with that.

It's been years since TiVo signed the deal and got the specs...yet they have not delivered. Simple as that. They run the day-to-day operations. They do the coding. They do the testing. Tivo, not DirecTV.

If folks want to blindly believe that Tivo is not accountable for this incredible delay (which is not the first time they have a delivery deadline fail either), then by all means - go for it. Most folks know better.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> So why the slam?


The Virgin box is a cable box, same as Premiere. They didn't have to change much.


----------



## ATARI

CuriousMark said:


> The Virgon box was based on the Premiere and came to market on schedule about a year after the deal was signed. It is a success and primarily responsible for turning around TiVo's MSO subscriber numbers. By every measure it is a success. The DirecTV deal predated the ability to do a box like that by years. The Premiere and its new code base didn't exist yet. So why the slam? It is uncalled for and emotional.
> 
> If DirecTV were to sign a deal for a follow on box today, and negotiated all the features with the hardware and software guys in the room, not just marketing guys, *I would expect the result to be done in about a year*, if international satellite deal hardware and software designs could be leveraged, maybe a little longer if not.


Seriously?!?!


----------



## CuriousMark

ATARI said:


> Seriously?!?!


Yes, they did it with Virgin, they did it with Ono which is starting to deploy now and is on schedule. They are on track with many smaller cable companies with no complaints of delays. Where there are delays and complaints it is Comcast, Cox, and DirecTV, where the MSO or sat provider already has their own solution already in place and is not motivated to take up the TiVo DVR.

TiVo could do it quickly with DirecTV if both sides wanted it badly enough. The track record is there to prove it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Perhaps... but another way of looking at that is the smaller cable companies may not have as stringent of a quality control process as the larger ones. This could lead to delays in testing.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Where there are delays and complaints it is Comcast, Cox, and DirecTV, where the MSO or sat provider already has their own solution already in place and is not motivated to take up the TiVo DVR.


Your pro-Tivo bias is so clear. Except in the case of Cox, those projects involved Tivo putting their software on someone else's hardware. Tivo obviously has a hard time doing this, but they accepted the challenges. With DirecTV they've taken years and might finally have a product to release, and with Comcast they utterly failed. Cox, from what I understand, just wasn't happy with Tivo's half-assed product. Can't say I blame them.

I'll say it again: when Tivo can't even deliver their own in-house projects, it's ridiculous to believe their third party projects somehow do not suffer from the same internal failings. Tivo is an incompetent company that is too arrogant to see that plain fact.


----------



## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> Perhaps... but another way of looking at that is the smaller cable companies may not have as stringent of a quality control process as the larger ones. This could lead to delays in testing.


I suppose that is an eye of the beholder kind of thing. RCN held off on turning on the HD interface of the TiVo Premiere DVR until most of the bugs were worked out. That doesn't sound like weak quality control to me, but I can see how you would need to interpret it differently to support your point of view.

I have no idea on how testing of the THR22 was going, but I do remember a few years ago when TiVo made some UI changes to the series 2 platform that introduced slowness that took nearly a year to fix.

I was reminded of that episode by the new H25 that was just installed for me to replace an H24 that kept locking up. Now trick play from the HR24 in the next room is horrible. It misses one of the FF button presses routinely so now have to do three FF presses to get FF speed 2 going. The H24 responded to trick play commands in around a second, the H25 takes about 3 to 4 seconds before the FF is seen progressing on screen, and jump back when I stop no longer hits the mark and I have to rewind a bit. All in all, I consider these quality control issues that didn't prevent the H25 from getting into my home. I am sure it will improve in future software loads, things like that get worked over time.

So yes quality control issues happen and either do or don't cause delays. DirecTV seems no more immune to them than anyone else though.

Back to one of my repeated points that reworking that old UI turned out to be a bad decision from the get-go, in my opinion. If they were going to keep that old UI, they needed to make sure that the absolute minimum in changes were made to it, which was not the case, or that they have waited and gone straight to the new UI, which was also not the case. I can't prove my contention, but it does seem to fit the facts pretty well.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Your pro-Tivo bias is so clear. Except in the case of Cox, those projects involved Tivo putting their software on someone else's hardware. Tivo obviously has a hard time doing this, but they accepted the challenges. With DirecTV they've taken years and might finally have a product to release, and with Comcast they utterly failed. Cox, from what I understand, just wasn't happy with Tivo's half-assed product. Can't say I blame them.
> 
> I'll say it again: when Tivo can't even deliver their own in-house projects, it's ridiculous to believe their third party projects somehow do not suffer from the same internal failings. Tivo is an incompetent company that is too arrogant to see that plain fact.


I wish to balance your Anti-TiVo bias. Still I think my bias is much smaller in absolute magnitude than yours.

yes, TiVo had a hard time doing it and learned from those early projects what not to do, and how to do it right. They have put their new software on someone else's hardware now with both Virgin and Ono, on time. So why do the anti-tivo folk here only mention the earlier failures and carefully ignore the current successes? Bias, and a big one. My bias is simply to correct that.

With Comcast, they succeeded, but it was very late and very underwhelming and the project was flushed. It did have a dependency on Comcast deploying tru2way nationwide by 2009, which still has not happened, but hey, lets not pay attention to facts that don't support the bias.

Cox saw the Comcast debacle and backed out, good move, since it was trying to do the same thing.

TiVo is delivering in house projects, so I don't know where you say they aren't. They are also delivering outside projects, but since those facts don't support your "I'll say it again" thesis, I can see why you ignore those facts. yes, TiVo did have those problems, but has fixed them, it took a while and the DirecTV DVR did suffer greatly from the problems, but to say the problems are not being resolved is to ignore reality.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Still I think my bias is much smaller in absolute magnitude than yours.


Most biased individuals believe their biases are smaller than their opposition's. That's just part of the bias!


CuriousMark said:


> They have put their new software on someone else's hardware now with both Virgin and Ono, on time.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in both cases the hardware was selected specifically with Tivo in mind. It's not like DirecTV and Comcast, where Tivo was asked to implement their software on an existing platform that was designed with someone else's software in mind.


CuriousMark said:


> So why do the anti-tivo folk here only mention the earlier failures and carefully ignore the current successes?


Tivo has plenty of current failures too. How about the half-assed HD GUI on the Premiere? When will they fix that?


CuriousMark said:


> With Comcast, they succeeded, but it was very late and very underwhelming and the project was flushed. It did have a dependency on Comcast deploying tru2way nationwide by 2009, which still has not happened, but hey, lets not pay attention to facts that don't support the bias.


Maybe if Tivo had delivered a product that was worth a damn, Comcast would have had some incentive to deploy tru2way. It's not like there was any other reason to deploy it, since it has pretty much fizzled out.


CuriousMark said:


> TiVo is delivering in house projects, so I don't know where you say they aren't.


Again, wake me up when the Premiere has a fully functional HD GUI.


----------



## CuriousMark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It's been years since TiVo signed the deal and got the specs...yet they have not delivered. Simple as that. They run the day-to-day operations. They do the coding. They do the testing. Tivo, not DirecTV.


It is only as simple as that if that is where you choose to stop looking. I am not denying that TiVo is largely responsible for the delay, they are just not solely responsible as you imply. Perhaps this deal is one they should not have signed, but they did and they struggled with it, there is no denying that. Still, there were features such as copy based MRV that could have been taken up to make the product more interesting to customers, and there were requirements to support UI features that TiVo had a hard time doing without lots of quality problems that perhaps could have been dropped to speed things up and weren't. TiVo and DirecTV were a team in those respects and worked together to decide what stayed and went.



> If folks want to blindly believe that Tivo is not accountable for this incredible delay (which is not the first time they have a delivery deadline fail either), then by all means - go for it. Most folks know better.


There you go again. Nowhere in my post that you are responding to, do I say TiVo is not accountable, you are trying to put words in my mouth. I do contend that DirecTV is also accountable though, and most folks do know that.

It is not the first time TiVo has had a delivery deadline fail. It is not the first time DirecTV has had a delivery deadline fail. Perhaps that is why both shy away from trying to set deadlines publicly. Sure TiVo is accountable, I never said differently, so please stop saying otherwise.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Most biased individuals believe their biases are smaller than their opposition's. That's just part of the bias!


Then we are in agreement that we are both biased.



> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in both cases the hardware was selected specifically with Tivo in mind. It's not like DirecTV and Comcast, where Tivo was asked to implement their software on an existing platform that was designed with someone else's software in mind.


That is a fair point. But the new Virgin box has a built in cable modem, just like the Motorola boxes used for the Comcast effort do. One huge difference is that the Comcast box was supposed to be TiVo software running in a sandbox in Java without direct hardware access. The newer boxes are closer to TiVo's standalones in that the software runs directly on the hardware. The DirecTV box, at least has the code running on the hardware. Getting the TiVo sofware to work well with the SWM, mid freq. MoCA (DECA), MPEG4, and sat tuners is a more difficult job, you are right about that. And yes it is clear that TiVo struggled with it, probably due to lack of manpower and support as much as raw difficulty.



> Tivo has plenty of current failures too. How about the half-assed HD GUI on the Premiere? When will they fix that?


It is fixed in the Virgin box. Why it hasn't been backported to the Premiere though is a mystery and I share your point of view on that part of it. TiVo focus on MSOs instead of stand alone subscribers may explain it, but that is just a guess.



> Maybe if Tivo had delivered a product that was worth a damn, Comcast would have had some incentive to deploy tru2way. It's not like there was any other reason to deploy it, since it has pretty much fizzled out.


Sorry, but that is revisionist history and is untrue. TiVo's delivery of a product that was essentially no better than the original software on the same box may have shown the folly of Tru2way though. The delays putting the head end code in place to support the remote boxes, much of that code coming from competitors and needing Comcast to micromanage it, were the leading cause, not the result. Also those old boxes were probably underpowered for expecting the TiVo software to run in a Java sandbox. Other problems had to do with poor wiring in customer premises preventing the upstream communications from the boxes to work correctly.

Tru2way failed under its own unwieldiness. Comcast is now going with a more modular approach, or so they say.



> Again, wake me up when the Premiere has a fully functional HD GUI.


Or allow yourself to count the Virgin GUI. No one is forcing you to ignore it.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Then we are in agreement that we are both biased.


Absolutely. I am biased against Tivo, and you are biased towards them. Unfortunately, you're one of the only pro-Tivo people to come over here and actually be logical about things.


CuriousMark said:


> Or allow yourself to count the Virgin GUI. No one is forcing you to ignore it.


I wasn't aware that the Virgin GUI was better off than the Premiere GUI. If that is the case (and I have no reason to doubt you) then that is ridiculous. I know MSO relationships are very important to Tivo, but they shouldn't be throwing their direct customers under the bus like that.


----------



## bonscott87

CuriousMark said:


> Yes, they did it with Virgin, they did it with Ono which is starting to deploy now and is on schedule. They are on track with many smaller cable companies with no complaints of delays. Where there are delays and complaints it is Comcast, Cox, and DirecTV, where the MSO or sat provider already has their own solution already in place and is not motivated to take up the TiVo DVR.
> 
> TiVo could do it quickly with DirecTV if both sides wanted it badly enough. The track record is there to prove it.


But they are doing something different with those smaller cable companies...they are just deploying Premiers pretty much out of the box with very little customization. Thus it's not much different then going to Best Buy and getting one. Thus no real programming to speak of which is where Tivo gets themselves into trouble.


----------



## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> Absolutely. I am biased against Tivo, and you are biased towards them. Unfortunately, you're one of the only pro-Tivo people to come over here and actually be logical about things.


I admit many are more biased than me, but I don't think that ALL of them are completely illogical. 

I enjoy our discussions, and prefer honest and open discussion where I can find it. I don't waste my time responding where there is no hope of an honest discussion.



> I wasn't aware that the Virgin GUI was better off than the Premiere GUI. If that is the case (and I have no reason to doubt you) then that is ridiculous. I know MSO relationships are very important to Tivo, but they shouldn't be throwing their direct customers under the bus like that.


I think they are still understaffed, it is getting better, but it will still take a little more time. The Premiere UI is MUCH BETTER than it was at version 1.0, there are still some screens that switch to the SD UI, but they are ancillary screens that people seldomly use. I believe they will get cleaned up over time. The UI still has a bit too much dependency on a good low latency internet connection though. When implemented in a box with a dedicated cable modem and putting the server directly in the head end, the perforomace is excellent. When implemented in a standalone DVR with the connection through a home network, through the cable company's (or telephone company's) internet service, and then out accross the open internet to the TiVo server farm; well let's just say that some people see better performance than others.

So those people are guinea pigs more than being thrown under a bus.


----------



## CuriousMark

bonscott87 said:


> But they are doing something different with those smaller cable companies...they are just deploying Premiers pretty much out of the box with very little customization. Thus it's not much different then going to Best Buy and getting one. Thus no real programming to speak of which is where Tivo gets themselves into trouble.


There is a difference. I believe that TiVo co-locates their server software on that cable company's head ends. Thus they get a direct link over that cable companies internet service directly to the VOD and UI search servers. That makes up for a lot of the trouble that random usres buying Premieres at retail have to deal with. Otherwise, you are correct the hardware and software in the box are pretty much identical.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> There is a difference. I believe that TiVo co-locates their server software on that cable company's head ends. Thus they get a direct link over that cable companies internet service directly to the VOD and UI search servers. That makes up for a lot of the trouble that random usres buying Premieres at retail have to deal with. Otherwise, you are correct the hardware and software in the box are pretty much identical.


I'd argue that a well-designed system shouldn't need workarounds like that. They're just returning search results.


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## CuriousMark

Jeremy W said:


> I'd argue that a well-designed system shouldn't need workarounds like that. They're just returning search results.


Yah, I suspect I am missing some things. I am only speculating as I don't know these things for certain. I see reports of good performance from well connected boxes and poorer performance from others and make my conclusion. I would suspect that with enough local cacheing latency shouldn't matter.


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## Herdfan

hdtvfan0001 said:


> More impotant...after all this time, it has become the non-event of the decade.


If that ain't the truth. When it was announced, I would have been all over it. But now that DirecTV has improved the HR series so much, there is no good reason for me to even glance that direction. And with the HR34 on the horizon, I might not even notice it was released.


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## cantil

dont care if i cant have mrv i have it now but i want my peanut remote


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## Stuart Sweet

Buy a used Logitech Harmony 880


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## generalpatton78

I'm not going to get into the mud slinging thats going on in the thread. We all have our preferences and I'm just glad we have some options again. Personally I've never been very happy with my hr21 over the years I've had it. It's slow and clunky. I still find it odd that it reponds to ipad commands so fast but takes a week to respond to my remote. I've slowly added HD DVRS in each room that has a TV and always requested a newer model but never got one. I've been a D* for 10 years now and love their service but missed my MP2 Tivos. I just prefer there interface and search options ect. Not that one is better then the other but I prefer Tivo. MRV isn't that big of a deal to me. I have sling and a ipad, android, netflix,hbo go, ect. The only thing I might miss is the on demand if it doesn't offer it. So D* in house DVR fans can have their cake, but now Tivo fans can eat too.


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## Stuart Sweet

Well said!


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## Jeremy W

generalpatton78 said:


> The only thing I might miss is the on demand if it doesn't offer it.


It'll be there.


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## Draconis

cantil said:


> dont care if i cant have mrv i have it now but i want my peanut remote





Stuart Sweet said:


> Buy a used Logitech Harmony 880


They are only $214.95 on Amazon...

:eek2: :lol:


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## Jeremy W

Draconis said:


> They are only $214.95 on Amazon...
> 
> :eek2: :lol:


Not used.


----------



## Draconis

Jeremy W said:


> Not used.


Still, those things are TBM (Too Bloody Much).

You know, I'm very curious about the new TiVo. This waiting is just dragging on. I guess all will be reveled soon enough.


----------



## Jeremy W

Draconis said:


> Still, those things are TBM (Too Bloody Much).


I take it you've never owned one. I had the 880, now I've upgraded to the Harmony One. Fantastic devices.


----------



## TheFigurehead

My 1st dvr was a DTV Hughes 70GB sd tivo. Got it at BB and really liked it. But the HD option took me to a silver HR20 - 700 from CC, which became my primary DVR. Now have 4 HD DVR's and the old tivo is collecting dust. I've decided that if the THR22 is $99.00 I will go ahead and buy one. I would swap out one of my HR-21's and give the new HD TiVo a try. I've wasted a lot more money on worse things... (Anyone remember the VZW Hub???).

The THR22 might totally suck... or, maybe it'll be a nice product after all? I am predicting it'll fall somewhere inbetween, but more than likely it'll be a decent DVR with TiVo software.


----------



## Diana C

My first DVR was the original DishPlayer (the WebTV based unit). In 2001 I switched to DirecTV specifically to get the Series 1 DirecTiVo. At one point, I had 4 DirecTiVos in use, all with expanded hard drive capacity, MRV turned on, backdoors open, and web interface installed. As you can see in my signature, I still have one of them running, hooked to legacy ports on my SWM.

I was very reluctant to switch to the DirecTV HD DVR platform, but had no real choice when I got my first HDTV. It was rough back then...both in terms of the software's functionality and my adjusting to a new paradigm. Through it all, I have remained a fan of the TiVo interface, the peanut remote, and TiVo's innovations. Back when it was announced, I eagerly anticipated the release of a new HD DirecTiVo.

However, now over 4 years in with the DirecTV DVRs, I find that I don't feel much anticipation any longer. I have grown accustomed to the DirecTV software, and the functionality of these DVRs has grown to the point that i have everything I need - MRV, remote programming, massive storage capacity and excellent reliability.

In my opinion, it matters little what features the new THR-22 has...it is just too late for it to have much impact. Some subscribers will embrace it, but for most of us, it is simply a non-event.


----------



## wingrider01

TheFigurehead said:


> My 1st dvr was a DTV Hughes 70GB sd tivo. Got it at BB and really liked it. But the HD option took me to a silver HR20 - 700 from CC, which became my primary DVR. Now have 4 HD DVR's and the old tivo is collecting dust. I've decided that if the THR22 is $99.00 I will go ahead and buy one. I would swap out one of my HR-21's and give the new HD TiVo a try. I've wasted a lot more money on worse things... (Anyone remember the VZW Hub???).
> 
> The THR22 might totally suck... or, maybe it'll be a nice product after all? I am predicting it'll fall somewhere inbetween, but more than likely it'll be a decent DVR with TiVo software.


do not think ti will be 99.00 - if anything it will start at 199.00 for the lease acquistion cost


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## mavs-fan

It will be interesting to see if at launch the DirecTivo is available for new subscribers as well as existing subs.


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## ilikehd2011

Looks like it's on solid signal website,no pricing yet.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=02&p=THR22&d=DIRECTV-TiVO-THR22-High-Definition-MPEG4-HDDVR-(THR22)&c=DIRECTV%20Receivers&sku=


----------



## Tom Robertson

mavs-fan said:


> It will be interesting to see at launch if the DirecTivo is available for new subscribers as well as existing subs.


They would have to. Both TiVo and DIRECTV want as many of these sold. 

Now, there might be short times at the very beginning when only new customers might be able to get them or something like that. Only until stock was sufficient in the supply chain--though I don't expect that to be an issue with the TiVos.

Cheers,
Tom


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## harsh

Once TiVo delivers, DIRECTV will be on the hook for selling a bunch of units. To a large extent TiVo gets decent money whether DIRECTV sells them or not so DIRECTV should be motivated to get them out the door.


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## Mike Bertelson

harsh said:


> Once TiVo delivers, DIRECTV will be on the hook for selling a bunch of units. To a large extent TiVo gets decent money whether DIRECTV sells them or not so DIRECTV should be motivated to get them out the door.


On the hook how?

What's the effect on DIRECTV if very few are sold?

Mike


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## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> Once TiVo delivers, DIRECTV will be on the hook for selling a bunch of units. To a large extent TiVo gets decent money whether DIRECTV sells them or not so DIRECTV should be motivated to get them out the door.





Mike Bertelson said:


> On the hook how?
> 
> What's the effect on DIRECTV if very few are sold?


That's exactly what I'm thinking. I can't imagine DirecTV is making very much money off of each THR22 they sell. And they've been paying Tivo the same amount of money for three years now, so what do they care?


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## pfp

Tom Robertson said:


> They would have to. Both TiVo and DIRECTV want as many of these sold.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


If that's the case then why would they neuter them?


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## ATARI

pfp said:


> If that's the case then why would they neuter them?


I think you missed Tom's smiley-face.


----------



## syphix

ilikehd2011 said:


> Looks like it's on solid signal website,no pricing yet.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=02&p=THR22&d=DIRECTV-TiVO-THR22-High-Definition-MPEG4-HDDVR-(THR22)&c=DIRECTV%20Receivers&sku=


Multiple times spelling "receiver" as "rec*ie*ver". 

Spell check must have been turned off...


----------



## Tom Robertson

pfp said:


> If that's the case then why would they neuter them?


Well... that is a good question.

DIRECTV is required to ensure that the copy protection features are in any TiVo features. TiVo hasn't/can't/won't do that, at least not now.

As for DIRECTV features such as MRV, that would be up to TiVo. I can see where there might be a few features TiVo would hesitate to put in their code base, but at the end of the day, when you service MSOs directly, you need to put the features they want in.

(That said, I also understand the concept that TiVo needed to completely refresh their code base at some point. That would be a suitable reason to delay features.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh

Mike Bertelson said:


> On the hook how?
> 
> What's the effect on DIRECTV if very few are sold?


From the original MPEG4 DIRECTiVo thread we understand that DIRECTV is responsible for advertising and minimum monthly payments to TiVo. The way it was described by TiVo during a conference call was:


Tom Rogers said:


> Financially speaking, the per-subscriber fees we receive from DirecTV with respect to the new platform are substantially higher than those under the existing deal, which when combined with a significant national marketing commitment from DirecTV, presents an attractive growth opportunity for TiVo.


From the SEC filing:


TiVo 8K said:



> The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement.


The takeaway is that DIRECTV is on the hook for a "significant national marketing commitment" as well as escalating monthly minimum payments. Both of these costs would seem to be independent of the number of units installed.


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## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> The takeaway is that DIRECTV is on the hook for a "significant national marketing commitment" as well as escalating monthly minimum payments.


That's very different from


harsh said:


> Once TiVo delivers, DIRECTV will be on the hook for selling a bunch of units.


As long as DirecTV makes the minimum payments and meets the "significant national marketing commitment" they've fulfilled their obligations to Tivo. Technically, they don't have to sell a single Tivo.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Of course we don't know what "significant" means, do we.


----------



## RobertE

Stuart Sweet said:


> Of course we don't know what "significant" means, do we.


Perhaps the "signifcant" marketing is inversely purportional to the "significant" delay in getting this doorstop out the door.


----------



## andunn27

So are most people thinking $199? Also, I'm assuming this is to be leased and not owned. Will there be any way to purchase these (even at a higher cost) to actually own them?


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## harsh

Jeremy W said:


> That's very different from
> 
> As long as DirecTV makes the minimum payments and meets the "significant national marketing commitment" they've fulfilled their obligations to Tivo. Technically, they don't have to sell a single Tivo.


I hate it when other people play the "DIRECTV wouldn't be so stupid as to" card, but it is burning my hand.

Why would DIRECTV bother if not to make a big profit off of the hardcore TiVotees (of which there are apparently "thousands")? They already have a bit of a reputation for subsidizing niche items with base package fees.

To hear you people go on (and on and on), having TiVo in the DIRECTV offering is a rotten tomato in a basket of prizewinners so I'm guessing they aren't expecting to buy a whole lot of _blue sky_ with this TiVo offering.


----------



## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> Why would DIRECTV bother if not to make a big profit off of the hardcore TiVotees (of which there are apparently "thousands")?


You're making a big assumption that DirecTV is making big profits off Tivo units. I think it's much more likely that when DirecTV went to Tivo to renew their overall agreement, Tivo said "We're not agreeing to anything unless you let us develop another DVR and help us market it" and DirecTV said "Fine, whatever, just give us access to your patents."


----------



## Mike Bertelson

harsh said:


> <snip>.
> Why would DIRECTV bother if not to make a big profit off of the hardcore TiVotees (of which there are apparently "thousands")? They already have a bit of a reputation for subsidizing niche items with base package fees.
> <snip>.


Patents. An agreement with TiVo allows use of features without fear of patent infringement lawsuits. That's probably worth and order of magnitude more than anything they could hope to make from a DirecTiVo box. That's my guess anyway. :grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Bertelson said:


> Patents. An agreement with TiVo allows use of features without fear of patent infringement lawsuits. That's probably worth and order of magnitude more than anything they could hope to make from a DirecTiVo box. That's my guess anyway.


...and its a pretty good guess at that.


----------



## BattleScott

Mike Bertelson said:


> Patents. An agreement with TiVo allows use of features without fear of patent infringement lawsuits. That's probably worth and order of magnitude more than anything they could hope to make from a DirecTiVo box. That's my guess anyway. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Hold on to your hat, you should be getting pounced on any second now for advancing such a rediculous theory...


----------



## Shades228

Everything always comes down to patents with this thread. It's the reason for the deal and the delay.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Shades228 said:


> Everything always comes down to patents with this thread. It's the reason for the deal and the delay.


I don't see how it could be the reason for the delay. IMHO, it is a big part of the reason for the relationship but I have no idea if it's the reason for the deal.

I suppose TiVo could be using the relationship to generate some income with this DVR. Lord knows they need it.

Patents have a lot to do with the relationship but what comes out of that relationship is just business as a consequence of that relationship. At least that's my view of it.

Mike


----------



## RMBittner

ATARI said:


> That's pretty much it. You will get a peanut remote and no 50 series limit. But you will also not get MRV.
> 
> For extreme TiVo fans only, IMHO.


I know you meant that a little disparagingly, but it's those two things -- plus TiVo's auto-recorded Suggestions -- that have kept us as loyal TiVo customers for the last 10 years, despite some serious frustration with the offerings from our local cable provider, who seems to think 20 HD channels is all anyone should want.

That said, I have been anxiously -- in every sense of that word -- waiting for this new HD DirecTiVo to come out. The minute it does, we will be ditching cable and signing up. I love what DirecTV seems to offer, but we are absolutely devoted to the TiVo UI, remote, unlimited SPs, and Suggestions.

Bob


----------



## RMBittner

ejjames said:


> The #1 most important reason. I will not have to teach my wife the directv system If you saw how my wife reacts to it, believe me, it's worth its weight n gold


Absolutely. My wife's absolute refusal to even consider ditching the TiVo remote and UI is the reason we're not yet DirecTV customers. (I love TiVo too. But I might love all of DTV's HD channels more...)

Keeping my fingers crossed that it won't be too many more weeks before the new units are officially announced and available.

Bob


----------



## tonyd79

RMBittner said:


> I know you meant that a little disparagingly, but it's those two things -- plus TiVo's auto-recorded Suggestions -- that have kept us as loyal TiVo customers for the last 10 years, despite some serious frustration with the offerings from our local cable provider, who seems to think 20 HD channels is all anyone should want.


I will never understand choosing SD because of auto-record. Never. So you get MORE SD quality programming when there are so many ways of finding new programmingn other than depending on a single box to do so.


----------



## RMBittner

tonyd79 said:


> I will never understand choosing SD because of auto-record. Never. So you get MORE SD quality programming when there are so many ways of finding new programmingn other than depending on a single box to do so.


Never said Suggestions were in SD. Most are in HD, since most of our watching is on HD channels (except for all the movie channels and things like BBCA, TCM, etc.) Our TiVo is a S3, which is a full HD, dual-tuner unit; we just don't get a ton of HD channels from our cable provider.

Yes, there are lots of ways to discover new programs. But Suggestions does it for you based on what you've recorded and what you've said you like. I watch a lot of TV -- we have close to 100 Season Passes -- and yet TiVo has still Suggested a couple of shows that we didn't know about and that we've become fans of. Sure, we might have found those for ourselves if we'd taken the time. But it's nice for the machine to record them for us; when we've run out of our own programs, they're waiting for us.

Bob


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## n3ntj

I don't really see a need to move to the THR22-100. My HR24-200 works just fine.


----------



## HoTat2

n3ntj said:


> I don't really see a need to move to the THR22-100. My HR24-200 works just fine.


I'm afraid those who still want the THR22-100 after all the cons posted about the unit, and no real pros to speak off, aren't really interested in what works fine from the standpoint of the superior technology. But a much more subjective what "works fine" for them as unwavering TIVO-loyalists.

Personally, with the present HR24s and the really promising HR34 RVU/HMC on the near horizon, I can't fathom how anyone could be seriously interested in what is little more than a circa 2003 era box with MPEG4 capability and no MRV.

Much less paying a premium for it except a TIVO-ist on the extreme.


----------



## tonyd79

"RMBittner" said:


> Never said Suggestions were in SD. Most are in HD, since most of our watching is on HD channels (except for all the movie channels and things like BBCA, TCM, etc.) Our TiVo is a S3, which is a full HD, dual-tuner unit; we just don't get a ton of HD channels from our cable provider.
> 
> Yes, there are lots of ways to discover new programs. But Suggestions does it for you based on what you've recorded and what you've said you like. I watch a lot of TV -- we have close to 100 Season Passes -- and yet TiVo has still Suggested a couple of shows that we didn't know about and that we've become fans of. Sure, we might have found those for ourselves if we'd taken the time. But it's nice for the machine to record them for us; when we've run out of our own programs, they're waiting for us.
> 
> Bob


Don't tell me about suggestions. I had a TiVo for years and years and it never found anything for me I wanted. They have you snookered into thinking it is some great thing. Guess what. The Directv dvrs have suggestions. They just don't auto record.

It stands to reason that if you have a lot of SD channels then you will get SD suggestions. Or are you just crippling your viewing even more by being stubborn over a UI that is on its last legs?


----------



## RMBittner

tonyd79 said:


> Don't tell me about suggestions. I had a TiVo for years and years and it never found anything for me I wanted.


To each his own. We love 'em; you don't.

Bob


----------



## tonyd79

"RMBittner" said:


> To each his own. We love 'em; you don't.
> 
> Bob


I understand liking them but to the point of denying yourself additional HD programming is what I don't understand. Watching tv is about watching tv, not the GUI unless the GUI is unusable. The Directv dvrs are not unusable and TiVo itself is abandoning the GUI you love so much that you deny yourself video quality.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

I find it hard to believe that anyone would give up 150 HD channels because of some over rated DVR. Seems insane to me. And thank god my wife let's me make all the decisions when it comes to all things technology and hardware.


----------



## inkahauts

"RMBittner" said:


> Absolutely. My wife's absolute refusal to even consider ditching the TiVo remote and UI is the reason we're not yet DirecTV customers. (I love TiVo too. But I might love all of DTV's HD channels more...)
> 
> Keeping my fingers crossed that it won't be too many more weeks before the new units are officially announced and available.
> 
> Bob


Ok, I'm a bit more curious...

How many tivos do you have in your house? And how much per month does each cost?

I find the DirecTV remote and the TiVo remote on par with each other. They both can be fully operated with your thumb, although I would give an edge to the directv remote because it has a few more direct buttons to access certain things that you have to go through a menu to do on a peanut remote.

As for your wife, I'd bet good money she could learn the DirecTV system and be happy with in three weeks. It's easier to navigate, has more shortcuts so you don't have to do as many button presses to do simple things, like set a recording.

As for auto records. That's just not true. You can set them up on direct and get almost the same kinds of results as you get now on yours. You can create auto record series links that will record based on certain tags, which is in essence how TiVo does it. The only difference is you have to create them, so you actually have a little more control over it than you do with TiVo. I set up a bunch at my folks house and my mom watches more of those than she ever did with the TiVo auto records.

The real reason I'd never go back to tivo is because wish lists on tivos is so horrible and unreliable it's a total failure.

With all that said, the hr34 is going to make everything else obsolete in terms of functionality for DirecTV, based on what has been seen of it at ces last year.


----------



## scamp

As a person who has been holding out for the HD Tivo for DirecTV for years I can say that now that it is finally here I'm probably going to go with Comcast. My wife and I have had horrible experiences with Comcast over the years for internet access and only stuck with them as they were the only game in town. We watch very little broadcast television and staying with SD on the original directivo was good enough for her and I'm of the wait for it to come out on dvd or netflix variety so didn't really care. She was content to wait, but for it to come out after all these years and be completely wimped down was a complete deal breaker. She loves the tivo interface and the DirecTV DVR interface she was exposed to a few years ago was horrible enough that she won't give them a second try so it is off to comcast for us.


----------



## tonyd79

"scamp" said:


> As a person who has been holding out for the HD Tivo for DirecTV for years I can say that now that it is finally here I'm probably going to go with Comcast. My wife and I have had horrible experiences with Comcast over the years for internet access and only stuck with them as they were the only game in town. We watch very little broadcast television and staying with SD on the original directivo was good enough for her and I'm of the wait for it to come out on dvd or netflix variety so didn't really care. She was content to wait, but for it to come out after all these years and be completely wimped down was a complete deal breaker. She loves the tivo interface and the DirecTV DVR interface she was exposed to a few years ago was horrible enough that she won't give them a second try so it is off to comcast for us.


You do realize that the newer standalone TiVos don't look like the TiVo interface you are clinging to?


----------



## JBernardK

inkahauts said:


> The real reason I'd never go back to tivo is because wish lists on tivos is so horrible and unreliable it's a total failure.


So, are you saying that wish lists on the D* DVRs work a lot better?


----------



## RMBittner

inkahauts said:


> Ok, I'm a bit more curious...
> 
> How many tivos do you have in your house? And how much per month does each cost?


We currently have two: a S2 (which hardly gets used anymore) and an HDS3. We pay $10/month total, due to grandfathering and having been customers for a little more than 10 years.



inkahauts said:


> The real reason I'd never go back to tivo is because wish lists on tivos is so horrible and unreliable it's a total failure.


I'm surprised. Wishlists work great for us.

But it feels like everyone's kind of missing my whole point: We love TiVo, yes. But I also love what DirecTV seems to offer in terms of HD programming, sports packages, etc. So, I am expecting to join your ranks soon. Didn't think I was going to invite scorn just because I happen to be a TiVo fan -- especially since this thread is all about the impending release of the DTiVo box.


----------



## crazywater

Jeremy W said:


> That's very different from
> 
> As long as DirecTV makes the minimum payments and meets the "significant national marketing commitment" they've fulfilled their obligations to Tivo. Technically, they don't have to sell a single Tivo.


That would be quite the winning business model. Strike a deal with TiVo, instruct them on how/what the software is to do, provide the hardware platform, pay TiVo for the product delivery and then abandon the marketing completely.

Yeah....that makes a lot of sense.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

RMBittner said:


> We currently have two: a S2 (which hardly gets used anymore) and an HDS3. We pay $10/month total, due to grandfathering and having been customers for a little more than 10 years.
> 
> I'm surprised. Wishlists work great for us.
> 
> But it feels like everyone's kind of missing my whole point: We love TiVo, yes. But I also love what DirecTV seems to offer in terms of HD programming, sports packages, etc. So, I am expecting to join your ranks soon. *Didn't think I was going to invite scorn just because I happen to be a TiVo fan *-- especially since this thread is all about the impending release of the DTiVo box.


I don't think any scorn is intended. It's just most people fail to see the logic behind sticking with something like Tivo and missing out on 150 HD channels. I have no issues using DirecTV's interface and I never have a problem recording anything I want to watch. I wouldn't even want a DVR that recorded things on it's own.


----------



## bidger

RMBittner said:


> But it feels like everyone's kind of missing my whole point: We love TiVo, yes. But I also love what DirecTV seems to offer in terms of HD programming, sports packages, etc. So, I am expecting to join your ranks soon. Didn't think I was going to invite scorn just because I happen to be a TiVo fan -- especially since this thread is all about the impending release of the DTiVo box.





SPACEMAKER said:


> I don't think any scorn is intended. It's just most people fail to see the logic behind sticking with something like Tivo and missing out on 150 HD channels. I have no issues using DirecTV's interface and I never have a problem recording anything I want to watch. I wouldn't even want a DVR that recorded things on it's own.


In 2006 I was offered a free HD DVR (HR10-250) as a reward for being an NFLST sub. I requested the HR20 instead since I knew that new HD would be MPEG 4. Took about a year, but when the new channels were added I was able to view them from the outset. Was it painless @ the beginning? No, the initial install had to be adjusted and my first DVR bit the dust. By the end of that year I found the HR20 to be stable and I found out there were things I liked that TiVo didn't offer.

Am I a TiVo hater? Well, since I'm using a TiVo HD while I'm auditioning TWC (there's no way I could adjust after seeing their DVRs in use), I'd say no. Am I a die-hard TiVotee? No, I have used and enjoy other DVR platforms and I don't find TiVo "flawless". Since I'm integrating the TiVo into a SONY Google TV Blu-ray player, it eliminates a pet peeve of mine about the standalone TiVos. There's a DVR button that takes me directly to Now Playing instead of having to hit the TiVo button 2x. Also, if I hit the Guide button while watching a recording, it brings it up without going to Live TV.

It's perfectly fine that you favor the TiVo and I'm glad that it's going to come out for you. It's just that a lot of us moved on when new HD channels started rolling out. If forced to choose, I'd watch more HD channels live, vs. being able to record a limited number and a whole bunch of SD.


----------



## RMBittner

bidger said:


> It's just that a lot of us moved on when new HD channels started rolling out. If forced to choose, I'd watch more HD channels live, vs. being able to record a limited number and a whole bunch of SD.


Oh, I do understand where you're coming from. And I might have followed suit, if we hadn't invested so many $$ in the S3, which was $800 when it was released (which is when we got it). If it were ONLY up to me, I'd have switched a year ago, figuring that we'd probably gotten enough of our money's worth out of the TiVoS3 to justify moving on. (Which probably isn't true. I mean, $800 is a LOT of money for an HD DVR! But I can at least lie to myself about it.) Alas, it's not only up to me. So the compromise I agreed to is that we make the switch when D* offers a TiVo HD unit.


----------



## Jeremy W

crazywater said:


> That would be quite the winning business model. Strike a deal with TiVo, instruct them on how/what the software is to do, provide the hardware platform, pay TiVo for the product delivery and then abandon the marketing completely.
> 
> Yeah....that makes a lot of sense.


I'm pretty sure I specifically said that they'd meet the marketing commitments. Read it again.


----------



## inkahauts

"JBernardK" said:


> So, are you saying that wish lists on the D* DVRs work a lot better?


Never once could I get a wish list to properly record any of my sports teams without missing shows, recording replays, and other shows I did not want.

I have not missed a single recording, only get what I want, and only get live telecasts with my. DirecTV records, so yeah, I am saying directives is way better.

Now, I am not saying it's so easy unless you use boolean search words, which many may not know about, but I will say even without using them, my hrs still record every game... They just get other extra stuff too. TiVo couldn't even figure out how to record every game.


----------



## inkahauts

"RMBittner" said:


> We currently have two: a S2 (which hardly gets used anymore) and an HDS3. We pay $10/month total, due to grandfathering and having been customers for a little more than 10 years.
> 
> I'm surprised. Wishlists work great for us.
> 
> But it feels like everyone's kind of missing my whole point: We love TiVo, yes. But I also love what DirecTV seems to offer in terms of HD programming, sports packages, etc. So, I am expecting to join your ranks soon. Didn't think I was going to invite scorn just because I happen to be a TiVo fan -- especially since this thread is all about the impending release of the DTiVo box.


You must not record sports then...

That was always my number one complaint.

The second was I couldn't just hit the record button and have it record, you have to go through all those menus... Dumb IMHO that they treat you like a child all the time.

I say use what you like, but as others have said, I'd never allow a gui to keep me from getting a service that provided a lot more of my shows in hd' even if it meant going back to TiVo for me, which I don't like. Luckily, that will never happen....

I guess the real question here is, why you don't like the DirecTV hrs in comparison.  With 3 units, you'd have 150 series links, and be able to watch any show recorded on any unit o any of the other tvs, no waiting. If you are comparing todays units with sd ones, they are totally different.

And be forewarned, your grandfathering is out the window with the new units. You will have to pay for them...

With that said, I think the hr34 will just decimate the debate of the best receiver, based on what we know. I think that if TiVo ever works on creating another box for DirecTV, it will be based on a hr34 model, seeing how they are building a standalone unit with similar capabilities. you can't beat 5 tuners, unlimited series links, pip, rvu, mrv, and so on... If I where you, I would wait till it hits the market and the hd guide hits DirecTV receivers, and the TiVo hits, which I almost think will all happen within about 6 weeks of each other or so, and then make a decision. Just because you love something now doesn't mean you won't find something even better tomorrow.


----------



## chapel

sigma1914 said:


> :lol: It's a dual tuner DVR.


that's what I said. apparently the training he got at work (DirecTV installer) said you CAN'T
very specifically...


----------



## tonyd79

inkahauts said:


> You must not record sports then...


I would never use a wishlist to depend on recording pretty much anything. I use searches to find possibilities but if I want to record a team, I will take the time to do the recordings for the team. I sure as shootin know any team I follow when they play and would never rely on guide data and logic to get those games and nothing else. Not on a Tivo, not on a DirecTV DVR, not on anything.

Although I do not record live games anyway. Never saw the point.


----------



## RACJ2

tonyd79 said:


> I would never use a wishlist to depend on recording pretty much anything. I use searches to find possibilities but if I want to record a team, I will take the time to do the recordings for the team. I sure as shootin know any team I follow when they play and would never rely on guide data and logic to get those games and nothing else. Not on a Tivo, not on a DirecTV DVR, not on anything.
> 
> Although I do not record live games anyway. Never saw the point.


Never saw the point in recording live games? Prior to DoublePlay, it was the only way to watch 1 game and buffer a second game so you could rewind and watch what you missed. Didn't you even do that back in the day?

Personally I travel a lot, including Sundays. So I have a series recording for my favorite NFL and NHL teams and record all live games. Then either watch them via Slingbox live or delayed or watch them when I get back home. Even if I know the outcome, I like to see how my team and players actually performed.


----------



## Richierich

RACJ2 said:


> Never saw the point in recording live games? Prior to DoublePlay, it was the only way to watch 1 game and buffer a second game so you could rewind and watch what you missed. Didn't you even do that back in the day?
> 
> Personally I travel a lot, including Sundays. So I have a series recording for my favorite NFL and NHL teams and record all live games. Then either watch them via Slingbox live or delayed or watch them when I get back home. Even if I know the outcome, I like to see how my team and players actually performed.


+1000.

I Record Golf, Nascar, NFL Football and College Football so I can see the games even if I know the Outcome to see how my College and NFL Team Competition looks like and to see how my players are performing, etc.

I also watch Golf Tournaments even if I know who won just to see how certain golfers made mistakes or bad swings that cost them the tournament.

Haven't missed my 2 HR10-250s which Directv swapped out for Free with 2 nice DVRs. I just want a DVR to enable me to Watch or Record what I want to watch when I want to watch it.


----------



## RMBittner

inkahauts said:


> You must not record sports then...


You're right, at least not via the Wishlist function.



inkahauts said:


> The second was I couldn't just hit the record button and have it record, you have to go through all those menus... Dumb IMHO that they treat you like a child all the time.


For me, hitting Record starts recording (or saving the cache and then Recording from that point on) immediately. Not sure why this wouldn't have worked for you.



inkahauts said:


> I guess the real question here is, why you don't like the DirecTV hrs in comparison. With 3 units, you'd have 150 series links, and be able to watch any show recorded on any unit o any of the other tvs, no waiting. If you are comparing todays units with sd ones, they are totally different.


I'm all for trying the DTV HD units. I never have; I've only played around with one sister-in-law's SD unit, which has a remote that feels really cludgy compared with the TiVo one. I have another sister-in-law with a whole-house HD setup and their family loves it. So I'm certainly open. But, as I've said, it's not entirely up to me. Hopefully, the whole issue will be moot by October...



inkahauts said:


> And be forewarned, your grandfathering is out the window with the new units. You will have to pay for them...


Oh, of course. It's tied to my specific units and my contract with TiVo. I'll pay whatever TiVo fees D* includes in the package pricing.

Bob


----------



## tonyd79

RACJ2 said:


> Never saw the point in recording live games? Prior to DoublePlay, it was the only way to watch 1 game and buffer a second game so you could rewind and watch what you missed. Didn't you even do that back in the day?


I have had a second DVR for some time. So, not really. Plus that locks me into a game I may or may not want to watch all of.

Besides, if I am sitting there, I would not use a wishlist to record the game, which is the reference of the conversation.


----------



## tonyd79

RMBittner said:


> For me, hitting Record starts recording (or saving the cache and then Recording from that point on) immediately. Not sure why this wouldn't have worked for you.


I think he means one button record for future shows from the guide. Pick a show three days from now from the guide, hit the record button once, scheduled recording. Twice, adds a season pass for that program. Third time clears the recording options.


----------



## RMBittner

tonyd79 said:


> I think he means one button record for future shows from the guide. Pick a show three days from now from the guide, hit the record button once, scheduled recording. Twice, adds a season pass for that program. Third time clears the recording options.


Ah, thanks. That must be it.

Bob


----------



## RACJ2

tonyd79 said:


> I have had a second DVR for some time. So, not really. Plus that locks me into a game I may or may not want to watch all of.
> 
> Besides, if I am sitting there, I would not use a wishlist to record the game, which is the reference of the conversation.


 OK, but I was replying to your comment about never recording a live game, which to me refers to recording in any manor. A second DVR in the same room, that makes sense why you wouldn't have to record on a second tuner. And I understand that recording locks you in, but you can press record and stop it if you change your mind. As I said DoublePlay has eliminated the need to record it. And I'm sure Tivo's can do dual tuner buffering as well.

A search to create a series recording is what I was referring to in my prior post. They work great for me to record a whole NHL and NFL season of my teams live games. As long as you set them up right. So if I had a Tivo, I would want the wishlist capability.


----------



## tonyd79

RACJ2 said:


> A search to create a series recording is what I was referring to in my prior post. They work great for me to record a whole NHL and NFL season of my teams live games. As long as you set them up right. So if I had a Tivo, I would want the wishlist capability.


I know a lot of people do that but I have not seen any wishlist type software work 100% of the time (especially with blackouts, etc.) so I would just make sure the games I wanted were recorded myself. The search part works for me. I have those. But I would use them to make it easier to find what I wanted. I would not rely on autorecord...

We may be speaking the same with different words.


----------



## bidger

RMBittner said:


> Oh, I do understand where you're coming from. And I might have followed suit, if we hadn't invested so many $$ in the S3, which was $800 when it was released (which is when we got it). If it were ONLY up to me, I'd have switched a year ago, figuring that we'd probably gotten enough of our money's worth out of the TiVoS3 to justify moving on. (Which probably isn't true. I mean, $800 is a LOT of money for an HD DVR!


It certainly is. A lot of folks are _conditional_ TiVo fans. IOW they want TiVo on the _condition_ they pay the subscription rate for the in-house DirecTV DVRs. Kudos.


----------



## inkahauts

"tonyd79" said:


> I would never use a wishlist to depend on recording pretty much anything. I use searches to find possibilities but if I want to record a team, I will take the time to do the recordings for the team. I sure as shootin know any team I follow when they play and would never rely on guide data and logic to get those games and nothing else. Not on a Tivo, not on a DirecTV DVR, not on anything.
> 
> Although I do not record live games anyway. Never saw the point.


And yet I record all games period, just in case I am not home or what gave you, and I record all the local teams, which is about 12 teams, and I haven't missed a game ever using a hr, ever. I absolutely rely n them, and they have never failed me once.


----------



## inkahauts

"tonyd79" said:


> I think he means one button record for future shows from the guide. Pick a show three days from now from the guide, hit the record button once, scheduled recording. Twice, adds a season pass for that program. Third time clears the recording options.


Exactly


----------



## inkahauts

"RACJ2" said:


> OK, but I was replying to your comment about never recording a live game, which to me refers to recording in any manor. A second DVR in the same room, that makes sense why you wouldn't have to record on a second tuner. And I understand that recording locks you in, but you can press record and stop it if you change your mind. As I said DoublePlay has eliminated the need to record it. And I'm sure Tivo's can do dual tuner buffering as well.
> 
> A search to create a series recording is what I was referring to in my prior post. They work great for me to record a whole NHL and NFL season of my teams live games. As long as you set them up right. So if I had a Tivo, I would want the wishlist capability.


I just don't care to watch commercials ever. It's a waste of an hour of my life. So I record everything and Skip commercials. I will watch the occasional big game live, but lots of times, I'll start a game after it's halfway over, so that I will catch up to live at or near the end of the game.


----------



## inkahauts

"tonyd79" said:


> I know a lot of people do that but I have not seen any wishlist type software work 100% of the time (especially with blackouts, etc.) so I would just make sure the games I wanted were recorded myself. The search part works for me. I have those. But I would use them to make it easier to find what I wanted. I would not rely on autorecord...
> 
> We may be speaking the same with different words.


Four plus years, never once mimed a lakers game, always use arsl and have done so with boolean search words since they where added. S yeah, I think there is one that works 100 percent of the time. It's all in how you set it up.


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> Four plus years, never once mimed a lakers game


I love miming Lakers games though! Why haven't you done it?


----------



## e4123

Ah what could have been with a little cooperation....

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/TiVo-Unveil-TiVo-Premiere-iw-2370661143.html?x=0

..."four tuners allowing for simultaneous recording of four different shows while viewing a fifth recorded program. Plus, its industry-leading two-terabyte hard drive allows for up to 300 hours of recorded HD programming.."


----------



## Jeremy W

e4123 said:


> Ah what could have been with a little cooperation....


It would have taken a lot more than cooperation to pull that off.


----------



## inkahauts

"e4123" said:


> Ah what could have been with a little cooperation....
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/TiVo-Unveil-TiVo-Premiere-iw-2370661143.html?x=0
> 
> ..."four tuners allowing for simultaneous recording of four different shows while viewing a fifth recorded program. Plus, its industry-leading two-terabyte hard drive allows for up to 300 hours of recorded HD programming.."


If TiVo and DirecTV stay in bed together, I wouldn't be surprised to see a next gen TiVo DirecTV box someday on the hr34 platform, which reportedly will do 5 simultaneous recordings...


----------



## tonyd79

"inkahauts" said:


> If TiVo and DirecTV stay in bed together, I wouldn't be surprised to see a next gen TiVo DirecTV box someday on the hr34 platform, which reportedly will do 5 simultaneous recordings...


They are barely in the same room today. Maybe bunk beds.


----------



## newsposter

where are my unlimited SP ..i just deleted a bunch of 'returning in 2012' shows because this darn hr20 cant deal with such complications as my good old hdtivo


----------



## tonyd79

newsposter said:


> where are my unlimited SP ..i just deleted a bunch of 'returning in 2012' shows because this darn hr20 cant deal with such complications as my good old hdtivo


Someone with multiple DVRs cannot complain about a 50 series limit. All the DVRs could be HR2x's and you would have all you need.


----------



## inkahauts

"tonyd79" said:


> Someone with multiple DVRs cannot complain about a 50 series limit. All the DVRs could be HR2x's and you would have all you need.


Nope. I have lots of dvrs, and I still complain about it. I'd love to see that limit go away, or at least double.


----------



## newsposter

i think they think we are stupid, the reason for the limit is to tell u another receiver and monthly fee..but no no will admit it !


----------



## tonyd79

"newsposter" said:


> i think they think we are stupid, the reason for the limit is to tell u another receiver and monthly fee..but no no will admit it !


Seriously?


----------



## litzdog911

newsposter said:


> i think they think we are stupid, the reason for the limit is to tell u another receiver and monthly fee..but no no will admit it !


Yeah, that's EXACTLY why they did it


----------



## Rockermann

litzdog911 said:


> Yeah, that's EXACTLY why they did it


<sarcasm>Isn't D* a big, evil corporation?? If you listen to the vibe out there in today's world, all corporations are evil. Therefore, I find it believable that they would try to milk every red cent out of us peons.</sarcasm>


----------



## harsh

Rockermann said:


> <sarcasm>Isn't D* a big, evil corporation?? If you listen to the vibe out there in today's world, all corporations are evil. Therefore, I find it believable that they would try to milk every red cent out of us peons.</sarcasm>


Which side of the $90.58 ARPU did your bill fall last quarter?


----------



## Rockermann

harsh said:


> Which side of the $90.58 ARPU did your bill fall last quarter?


More than double that. So yes, I'm paying my fair share.


----------



## Jeremy W

Rockermann said:


> <sarcasm>Isn't D* a big, evil corporation?? If you listen to the vibe out there in today's world, all corporations are evil. Therefore, I find it believable that they would try to milk every red cent out of us peons.</sarcasm>


DirecTV is a for-profit company, so while they're definitely not evil, they _are _trying to make as much money off of you as they reasonably can. However, the 50 SL limit is clearly not one of the ways they're trying to do that.


----------



## sigma1914

harsh said:


> Which side of the $90.58 ARPU did your bill fall last quarter?


Which side was yours on?


----------



## RMBittner

Several late-August online reports have mentioned a possible release date of September 25 for the new HD DirecTiVo box.

I'm one of those who'll be jumping in just as soon as it's official. But here's my question: Wouldn't September 25 -- a _Sunday_ -- be a really odd launch day for any new product?

Does DirecTV have any kind of history for specific days of the week when they typically introduce new products or features? (Like iTunes posting new music and apps on Tuesdays?)

I _want_ to believe that 9/25 is THE DAY. But I'm also trying not to count my DTiVos before they. . . you know.

Bob


----------



## Stuart Sweet

All those reports originated from the same rumor. That tends to be the way things happen on the internet. It's not impossible that the TiVo will launch on 9/25, but yes it does seem odd. 

I tend to think that no matter what the launch date, it's not going to be a big marketing fanfare. It's not like you are going to see "Monday Night Football, sponsored by the DIRECTV THR22." It will be more like, if you know what to ask for, you'll get it. 

DIRECTV tends to do rollouts like that; that's how they did the HR20, Whole-Home, and other launches.


----------



## HoTat2

RMBittner said:


> Several late-August online reports have mentioned a possible release date of September 25 for the new HD DirecTiVo box.
> 
> I'm one of those who'll be jumping in just as soon as it's official. But here's my question: Wouldn't September 25 -- a _Sunday_ -- be a really odd launch day for any new product?
> 
> Does DirecTV have any kind of history for specific days of the week when they typically introduce new products or features? (Like iTunes posting new music and apps on Tuesdays?)
> 
> I _want_ to believe that 9/25 is THE DAY. But I'm also trying not to count my DTiVos before they. . . you know.
> 
> Bob


Don't think there is any specific day DIRECTV favors for rolling out new equipment. But on a related point and not to try and throw any water on your hope for a 9/25 release. Before new equipment is released it almost always debuts here on the forum in a "First Look" presentation courtesy of dbstalk field testers typically a month or so before its actually rolled out to the public.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Stuart Sweet said:


> All those reports originated from the same rumor. That tends to be the way things happen on the internet. It's not impossible that the TiVo will launch on 9/25, but yes it does seem odd.
> 
> I tend to think that no matter what the launch date, it's not going to be a big marketing fanfare. It's not like you are going to see "Monday Night Football, sponsored by the DIRECTV THR22." It will be more like, if you know what to ask for, you'll get it.
> 
> DIRECTV tends to do rollouts like that; that's how they did the HR20, Whole-Home, and other launches.


Yet we know that DIRECTV is required to do some marketing for the THR-22. This is quite different from the other launches in so many respects. (Like an ever shrinking audience...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jacmyoung

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Yet we know that DIRECTV is required to do some marketing for the THR-22. This is quite different from the other launches in so many respects. (Like an ever shrinking audience...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Have not followed this or watched TV for awhile, what kind of marketing effort, if any, has DirecTV made so far?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

None that I am aware of. And Tom I understand there is the "significant marketing" portion of the contract; I just don't think it will come on launch day.


----------



## Jeremy W

HoTat2 said:


> Before new equipment is released it almost always debuts here on the forum in a "First Look" presentation courtesy of dbstalk field testers typically a month or so before its actually rolled out to the public.


I wouldn't be surprised if there was no DBSTalk field test for the THR22, simply because it is a Tivo and they usually do their own field testing.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Stuart Sweet said:


> None that I am aware of. And Tom I understand there is the "significant marketing" portion of the contract; I just don't think it will come on launch day.


And probably not on Monday Night football. 

Now here is another twist on this. What will TiVo do on launch day? They might do several marketing bits on day one. I bet I get an email...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RMBittner

Stuart Sweet said:


> It's not like you are going to see "Monday Night Football, sponsored by the DIRECTV THR22." It will be more like, if you know what to ask for, you'll get it.


:lol:

Bob


----------



## RMBittner

Tom Robertson said:


> Now here is another twist on this. What will TiVo do on launch day? They might do several marketing bits on day one. I bet I get an email...


I don't know enough about the workings of either company to hazard a guess. But I will say that I was dumbfounded to talk to a TiVo CSR earlier this week (cancelling service on a long-ignored SD unit) who, when I mentioned that I was looking forward to the DirecTiVo, said, "Oh, man, there hasn't been any news about that for three years!"

When I told him that the Internet/forums had been full of announcements and rumors just last month about an impending release, he was surprised.

So maybe a good first step would be to market the DirecTiVo within the company before focusing on the outside world.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I wouldn't be surprised to see an e-mail blast. I also wouldn't be surprised to see social media and tech blogs be part of the effort.


----------



## Jeremy W

RMBittner said:


> When I told him that the Internet/forums had been full of announcements and rumors just last month about an impending release, he was surprised.


There have been zero announcements. Everything is still a rumor at this point.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see an e-mail blast. I also wouldn't be surprised to see social media and tech blogs be part of the effort.


I'll bet social media and blogs will be a big part of it...maybe the largest part.

Mike


----------



## RMBittner

jacmyoung said:


> Have not followed this or watched TV for awhile, what kind of marketing effort, if any, has DirecTV made so far?


Zero. In fact, unless you're an avid TiVotee, as I am, you've got to do some digging on both the DirecTV and TiVo Web sites to know that the machine is even in the works. It's actually easier to find information about it on other companies' Web sites than on either DTV or TiVo's sites.

Not that I hold it against them. I realize I'm in a _very_ small minority of TiVo fans who are so in love with the UI/remote/etc. that we're willing to hold out for a TiVo-based DTV unit before we'll switch from cable. (And some who would have pounced on this three years -- when it was first announced -- have given up and moved on.)

Ah, if only Steve Jobs had bought TiVo. Then, Launch Day would mean high-energy commercials, long lines outside the TiVo store on 5th Avenue, national news coverage, pirating in Asia. . . (I actually think TiVo would have been a great fit with Apple; both focus on extremely user-friendly, well-designed gadgets, and I think TiVo absolutely fits the bill. But I wouldn't want it in white.)

Bob


----------



## Jeremy W

RMBittner said:


> I actually think TiVo would have been a great fit with Apple; both focus on extremely user-friendly, well-designed gadgets, and I think TiVo absolutely fits the bill.


Tivo's corporate culture wouldn't fit with Apple's at all. Apple would have to trash so many of Tivo's key people, it would hardly be worth it. The two companies are way too different on the stuff that matters.


----------



## RMBittner

Jeremy W said:


> Tivo's corporate culture wouldn't fit with Apple's at all. Apple would have to trash so many of Tivo's key people, it would hardly be worth it. The two companies are way too different on the stuff that matters.


Ah. I was just thinking about the products, not the company per se.

Not to disparage anyone at TiVo, whose product I really do love, but maybe if they'd nurtured a more "Apple"-like corporate culture -- or had a visionary like Steve Jobs at the helm -- they'd be a much stronger company today. (Granted, there aren't too many visionaries like Steve Jobs.) Because I get the feeling that TiVo is talked about more than it's actually bought and used.

I hear the word "TiVo" a lot from commentators and characters on TV, but I think it's become a generic way of saying "I recorded this on my DVR" rather than having anything to do with the actual TiVo product. In fact, whenever someone tells me they "TiVo'd" something, I ask them which TiVo they have. And every time, they say, "Oh, I don't actually have a _TiVo_." It's just easier than saying "I DVRed this," or, worse, "taped."

BB


----------



## Jeremy W

RMBittner said:


> maybe if they'd nurtured a more "Apple"-like corporate culture -- or had a visionary like Steve Jobs at the helm -- they'd be a much stronger company today.


No doubt. With the market lead they had, a visionary leader could have capitalized on it and made Tivo into the iPod of DVRs. Instead, they pissed it all away and became the Zune of DVRs.


RMBittner said:


> In fact, whenever someone tells me they "TiVo'd" something, I ask them which TiVo they have. And every time, they say, "Oh, I don't actually have a _TiVo_."


It's worse with most of the people I talk to. They simply assume that Tivo is a generic term like DVR.


----------



## RMBittner

Jeremy W said:


> No doubt. With the market lead they had, a visionary leader could have capitalized on it and made Tivo into the iPod of DVRs. Instead, they pissed it all away and became the Zune of DVRs.
> 
> It's worse with most of the people I talk to. They simply assume that Tivo is a generic term like DVR.


I'm a freelance writer, and one of my fellow freelancers had the opportunity to interview the founder of TiVo for a profile she was writing way back in the beginning. She said she was so impressed with the product and his vision for it that she ended up buying TiVo stock as soon as she turned in her profile.

I don't mean to turn this thread into something else, but I can't help wondering what happened to _that_ company?

BB


----------



## Jeremy W

RMBittner said:


> I don't mean to turn this thread into something else, but I can't help wondering what happened to _that_ company?


A big part of the problem was their arrogance. They basically had an Apple-level arrogance without any of Apple's accomplishments.


----------



## tonyd79

RMBittner said:


> I don't know enough about the workings of either company to hazard a guess. But I will say that I was dumbfounded to talk to a TiVo CSR earlier this week (cancelling service on a long-ignored SD unit) who, when I mentioned that I was looking forward to the DirecTiVo, said, "Oh, man, there hasn't been any news about that for three years!"
> 
> When I told him that the Internet/forums had been full of announcements and rumors just last month about an impending release, he was surprised.
> 
> So maybe a good first step would be to market the DirecTiVo within the company before focusing on the outside world.


Depends on who will be taking the calls. If it is Tivo, then, yes, you found an issue. If DirecTV will be handling them, then Tivo CSRs need not know anything.


----------



## RMBittner

tonyd79 said:


> Depends on who will be taking the calls. If it is Tivo, then, yes, you found an issue. If DirecTV will be handling them, then Tivo CSRs need not know anything.


I think the only "issue" was that I was naive enough to think that a TiVo employee might be interested enough to keep up with the latest TiVo developments. I didn't take it as a sign of a problem or that it was even something he _should_ have known about, necessarily.

I don't know how DirecTV and TiVo handled things in the past, but I'm assuming any questions/issues that arise down the road (once there is a road and I can finally get on it) would fall solely in D's camp.

Bob


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Mr. Bittner, it would be a wonderful world if everyone were interested in their jobs to the extent that they did all the external research that should be done. 

I never fault a CSR for not knowing as much as the fine people on this forum. After all, it's just a paycheck to them; to us it's a passion.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> it would be a wonderful world if everyone were interested in their jobs to the extent that they did all the external research that should be done.


If they showed that much initiative, they probably wouldn't be a front-line CSR at any company. :lol:


----------



## RMBittner

Stuart Sweet said:


> Mr. Bittner, it would be a wonderful world if everyone were interested in their jobs to the extent that they did all the external research that should be done.
> 
> I never fault a CSR for not knowing as much as the fine people on this forum. After all, it's just a paycheck to them; to us it's a passion.




Didn't mean to imply that I was faulting anyone. Just thought it was worth mentioning. (And I've been blessed to _almost_ always have passion and paycheck go hand in hand.)


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> Mr. Bittner, it would be a wonderful world if everyone were interested in their jobs to the extent that they did all the external research that should be done.


  

I work in a professional white collar job and I don't know too many people who come in to work every day and are truly excited by their jobs. I can't imagine ANY CSR in the world excited about coming into work to the point where they'll research the products on their own time.


----------



## SledgeHammer

RMBittner said:


> (And I've been blessed to _almost_ always have passion and paycheck go hand in hand.)


Lucky you . What do you do? I'm a software engineer and I can tell you that you'd be hard pressed to find a software engineer with more then 4 or 5 yrs of experience that still likes it. Most of us did it as a hobby during high school / college, but after you get out in the real world and work for the pointy haired boss for a while, you quickly lose your passion. Now, granted, for some companies you have to at least PRETEND you are obsessed with the product because thats kind of towing the company line... I interviewed at Blizzard a few years back and they had this attitude of you have to be a hard core gamer and play WoW with all your free time... but during my interviews, I asked the interviewers how often they play WoW at home and universally got the answer "I don't".


----------



## RMBittner

SledgeHammer said:


> Lucky you . What do you do?


Started out as a marketing copywriter, then moved into book editing. Since 2000, I've been a full-time freelance nonfiction writer (5 books and hundreds of magazine articles). . . although I'm currently writing my first novel. (When I'm not procrastinating by coming here.) Member and former president of ASJA (American Society of Journalists & Authors).

I also have a home-based recording studio, where I record/mix projects for clients as well as write/record my own songs. (Two CDs are available on iTunes, Amazon, and CDBaby.)

Bob


----------



## mkdtv21

So maybe I'm thinking now that in the coming days dbstalk should get a hold of one of these units and do a review on it since it's supposed to come out the 25th. Otherwise its not going to be available by the 25th.


----------



## RMBittner

mkdtv21 said:


> So maybe I'm thinking now that in the coming days dbstalk should get a hold of one of these units and do a review on it since it's supposed to come out the 25th. Otherwise its not going to be available by the 25th.


Really? As I understand it, it's been in beta testing since May.


----------



## Maruuk

Is the THR-22 just old D* hardware with a Tivo remote? An HR-21 or something? With old Tivo software?

Doesn't sound like much to spend marketing dollars on. And this took them 4 years of development to bring to fruition? A roomful of Forest Gumps could have done better.


----------



## Jeremy W

Maruuk said:


> Is the THR-22 just old D* hardware with a Tivo remote? An HR-21 or something? With old Tivo software?


It's an HR22.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Maruuk said:


> Is the THR-22 just old D* hardware with a Tivo remote? An HR-21 or something? With old Tivo software?
> 
> Doesn't sound like much to spend marketing dollars on. And this took them 4 years of development to bring to fruition? A roomful of Forest Gumps could have done better.


It's the HR22 with the classic TiVo interface. I wouldn't call it the old TiVo software. They have spent a lot of time on it so it's new and up to date. It just looks like the classic UI.

Mike


----------



## CuriousMark

Mike Bertelson said:


> It's the HR22 with the classic TiVo interface. I wouldn't call it the old TiVo software. They have spent a lot of time on it so it's new and up to date. It just looks like the classic UI.
> 
> Mike


It sure would be nice if it includes guru guides. Since it will have Kidzone, I suspect Guru guides will be here.

I really miss the new fall season guru guide. I am stuck browsing the grid guide to find new shows to set up to record from my H25 that drives the wife's HR24. It is annoyingly 1990s. If I had the THR22 they would be set up in a snap, and two weeks out instead of one.


----------



## Maruuk

Oh ok, so it's _current_ Tivo software. Is Tivo just laying their UI on top of standard D* firmware in the HR-22 or is it 100% Tivo firmware/software?

Any word about price? Thought I saw an advance ad that mentioned $99 but not sure.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It's not the current TiVo software either, from what I've read. It will not be their new UI. I would expect a UI like the HR10-250 from 7 years ago, with one or two new features (multi-room viewing not being one of them.)


----------



## Maruuk

Dedicated slo-mo button is so far the awesomest of the features.


----------



## RMBittner

CuriousMark said:


> I really miss the new fall season guru guide.


Are you using a TiVo currently -- or are you saying you miss it because you're now on a DTV DVR? Just asking because the Fall Guru Guide is showing up on my S3 TiVo. (I think it's even highlighted on the "Now Playing" screen.)

Bob


----------



## RMBittner

Maruuk said:


> Dedicated slo-mo button is so far the awesomest of the features.


I was baffled when the training video for the new DirecTiVo actually made a point of highlighting this feature. It's probably the least-used TiVo feature in our house.

Do you slo-mo sports? I will rarely use it if I want to see something in the credits that's shooting by, but that's about it.

Bob


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Maruuk said:


> Dedicated slo-mo button is so far the awesomest of the features.


DIRECTV App for iPad has a dedicated slow button.


----------



## CuriousMark

RMBittner said:


> Are you using a TiVo currently -- or are you saying you miss it because you're now on a DTV DVR? Just asking because the Fall Guru Guide is showing up on my S3 TiVo. (I think it's even highlighted on the "Now Playing" screen.)
> 
> Bob


I am now on a DTV DVR and that is a TiVo feature that DirecTV does not have and that I miss.

I do have an S2, and it has the guide and setting up the S2 took 5 minutes, I am still putzing around with the HR24 for the shows I will want to record there.


----------



## sigma1914

I don't understand why you need a Tivo to help tell you what to record. I set up the DVR just yesterday for new stuff starting mostly next week. Brought up the guide, went to the local networks (4, 5, 8, 11 all show up) at 7pm CST, record button 2x for the series link, scroll over 2 /3 clicks to see 9pm shows, green button 2x to advance 24 hours, repeat, etc. Took about 10-15 minutes. Move all cable channel shows down in priority since they repeat. Done.


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, I have the iPad app but firing up my iPad everytime I want to watch sports on TV seems kinda clunky. Besides, my HR-24 inputs are so random and funky that it probably wouldn't take until the third or 4th or 5th push. Which kind of defeats the purpose.

Slo-mo is critical for sports. A dedicated slo-mo button (one that works the instant you push it) is essential.


----------



## mkdtv21

I don't know why everyone keeps on saying its just an old HR10-250 with mpeg4 support. We know the THR-22 will have Directv Cinema/On demand and support for interactive features. Also the UI is an upgrade from the HR10 since its a series 3 and not a series 2. So in my opinion its still a significant upgrade from the HR10-250.


----------



## Jeremy W

mkdtv21 said:


> I don't know why everyone keeps on saying its just an old HR10-250 with mpeg4 support.


Because it's mostly accurate, and easier than explaining every little difference.


----------



## CuriousMark

"sigma1914" said:


> I don't understand why you need a Tivo to help tell you what to record. I set up the DVR just yesterday for new stuff starting mostly next week. Brought up the guide, went to the local networks (4, 5, 8, 11 all show up) at 7pm CST, record button 2x for the series link, scroll over 2 /3 clicks to see 9pm shows, green button 2x to advance 24 hours, repeat, etc. Took about 10-15 minutes. Move all cable channel shows down in priority since they repeat. Done.


Exactly,lather,rinse,repeat,then pop out to your favorite cable channels and do it again. Oh and don't know a particular title is newer, then miss something that might have been good. If a new show is on a channel you forget to scan, tough luck sailor. Very 2003.

Compare with navigate to the guru guides, select new shows this fall, get the guide. Everything new that does not conflict with an existing season pass records. If you want, you can select customize this guide and uncheck the shows you know you won't like. They all show in a single list independent of time or channel. 5 minutes tops and you know you didn't miss a thing.

There are also guides by genre.


----------



## sigma1914

CuriousMark said:


> Exactly,lather,rinse,repeat,then pop out to your favorite cable channels and do it again. Oh and don't know a particular title is newer, then miss something that might have been good. If a new show is on a channel you forget to scan, tough luck sailor. Very 2003.
> 
> Compare with navigate to the guru guides, select new shows this fall, get the guide. Everything new that does not conflict with an existing season pass records. If you want, you can select customize this guide and uncheck the shows you know you won't like. They all show in a single list independent of time or channel. 5 minutes tops and you know you didn't miss a thing.
> 
> There are also guides by genre.


You can check everything on a channel on the HRs...Guide, highlight the channel, info.

New show guides are all over the net, too.

I guess people need the DVR to tell them everything, including what they'll like. :nono2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Actually they sound very handy and cool.

And something DIRECTV could implement in their canned smart searches today. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## tonyd79

"CuriousMark" said:


> Exactly,lather,rinse,repeat,then pop out to your favorite cable channels and do it again. Oh and don't know a particular title is newer, then miss something that might have been good. If a new show is on a channel you forget to scan, tough luck sailor. Very 2003.
> 
> Compare with navigate to the guru guides, select new shows this fall, get the guide. Everything new that does not conflict with an existing season pass records. If you want, you can select customize this guide and uncheck the shows you know you won't like. They all show in a single list independent of time or channel. 5 minutes tops and you know you didn't miss a thing.
> 
> There are also guides by genre.


I have a search for season and series premiers. Works just fine. I had the guru guides for two years on TiVo. You still had to pick what you wanted unless you wanted it to clutter up your drive with everything. And it had stuff on channels I didn't get like OTA from 150 miles away. It also picked SD channels over HD channels.

You really let a machine decide what you are going to record without discernment? Very 1984.


----------



## tonyd79

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Actually they sound very handy and cool.
> 
> And something DIRECTV could implement in their canned smart searches today.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I find them useless too.


----------



## Tom Robertson

tonyd79 said:


> I find them useless too.


Thanks for confirming, Tony. I haven't looked at the canned smart searches in awhile. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## CuriousMark

"Tom Robertson" said:


> Actually they sound very handy and cool.
> 
> And something DIRECTV could implement in their canned smart searches today.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


That would be handy. What is a smart search. If my dvr has it,i haven't found it.


----------



## CuriousMark

"tonyd79" said:


> I have a search for season and series premiers. Works just fine. I had the guru guides for two years on TiVo. You still had to pick what you wanted unless you wanted it to clutter up your drive with everything. And it had stuff on channels I didn't get like OTA from 150 miles away. It also picked SD channels over HD channels.
> 
> You really let a machine decide what you are going to record without discernment? Very 1984.


Of course not, it is not about the machine deciding,that came from the two of you. It is about ease of use so you can decide without getting lost in a grid guide. If you can do it on dtv, show me how.


----------



## mkdtv21

Does anyone think this Tivo will include Tivocasts or web videos or whatever its called? I hope it does since its internet connected and it would make it a more exciting product.


----------



## Maruuk

If it's just old HR-22 hardware it couldn't.


----------



## I WANT MORE

mkdtv21 said:


> *I don't know why everyone keeps on saying its just an old HR10-250 with mpeg4 support.* We know the THR-22 will have Directv Cinema/On demand and support for interactive features. Also the UI is an upgrade from the HR10 since its a series 3 and not a series 2. So in my opinion its still a significant upgrade from the HR10-250.


Because for whatever reason to some D* is the almighty. No other STB could ever compete. 
I have both. Tivo is great, the HR24 is great. Nothing negative to say about either.


----------



## CuriousMark

"mkdtv21" said:


> Does anyone think this Tivo will include Tivocasts or web videos or whatever its called? I hope it does since its internet connected and it would make it a more exciting product.


It could, but so far no information has come out to answer that question. The hardware is there to support web video that is properly formatted.


----------



## sigma1914

CuriousMark said:


> Of course not, it is not about the machine deciding,that came from the two of you. It is about ease of use so you can decide without getting lost in a grid guide. If you can do it on dtv, show me how.


Go to the normal Smart Search function and there should be an option (4 are there) to the right of the letters that says something like, "FALL TV PREMIERES."


----------



## sigma1914

I WANT MORE said:


> Because for whatever reason to some D* is the almighty. No other STB could ever compete.
> I have both. Tivo is great, the HR24 is great. Nothing negative to say about either.


No, that's got nothing to do with it. The THR22 is nothing revolutionary and is basically a HR10 with mpeg4...That isn't an insult, because many like the HR10. You don't have the new DirecTV Tivo, so you can't say it's great...Your Tivo with whatever other service you use it for may be great, but that doesn't translate to the DirecTV one automatically being great. IMO, Premier is a POS and half-a$$ed product that I wasted $50 on. That doesn't mean others will not like it.


----------



## I WANT MORE

sigma1914 said:


> No, that's got nothing to do with it. The THR22 is nothing revolutionary and is basically a HR10 with mpeg4...That isn't an insult, because many like the HR10. You don't have the new DirecTV Tivo, so you can't say it's great...Your Tivo with whatever other service you use it for may be great, but that doesn't translate to the DirecTV one automatically being great. IMO, Premier is a POS and half-a$$ed product that I wasted $50 on. That doesn't mean others will not like it.


Well, Of course I don't have the new TIVO, duh (YET)
I have a Premier and love it. No POS for sure.


----------



## Maruuk

Seems I read the product is shipping the last week in Sept. and will be available first week in Oct.--but where would that be? Will we have to order it from D*?

BTW, thanks for the heads-up on the Fall Premieres tab in Smart Search Sigma! Very helpful. I've been scanning the guide each night myself trolling for new shows. The few I've seen have been brutally bad. But always optimistic.


----------



## inkahauts

"RMBittner" said:


> Ah. I was just thinking about the products, not the company per se.
> 
> Not to disparage anyone at TiVo, whose product I really do love, but maybe if they'd nurtured a more "Apple"-like corporate culture -- or had a visionary like Steve Jobs at the helm -- they'd be a much stronger company today. (Granted, there aren't too many visionaries like Steve Jobs.) Because I get the feeling that TiVo is talked about more than it's actually bought and used.
> 
> I hear the word "TiVo" a lot from commentators and characters on TV, but I think it's become a generic way of saying "I recorded this on my DVR" rather than having anything to do with the actual TiVo product. In fact, whenever someone tells me they "TiVo'd" something, I ask them which TiVo they have. And every time, they say, "Oh, I don't actually have a TiVo." It's just easier than saying "I DVRed this," or, worse, "taped."
> 
> BB


But TiVo products aren't easier or better to use than alternatives, including directives own units. If apple designed a dvr it would be more like the Directv hrs then the tivos, they don't believe in making you do lots of steps to accomplish something simple, they are into simplicity and quick access like Directv is.

You are absolutely right about the use of the word TiVo. Kind of the same thing as the use of the word roller bladding or klenex.


----------



## inkahauts

"CuriousMark" said:


> It sure would be nice if it includes guru guides. Since it will have Kidzone, I suspect Guru guides will be here.
> 
> I really miss the new fall season guru guide. I am stuck browsing the grid guide to find new shows to set up to record from my H25 that drives the wife's HR24. It is annoyingly 1990s. If I had the THR22 they would be set up in a snap, and two weeks out instead of one.


Do a smart search for premiere. Or use your iPad app if you have one. And Directv dvrs go out 2 weeks, not sure why you say they don't.


----------



## inkahauts

"Maruuk" said:


> Yeah, I have the iPad app but firing up my iPad everytime I want to watch sports on TV seems kinda clunky. Besides, my HR-24 inputs are so random and funky that it probably wouldn't take until the third or 4th or 5th push. Which kind of defeats the purpose.
> 
> Slo-mo is critical for sports. A dedicated slo-mo button (one that works the instant you push it) is essential.


Actually, have you tried the iPad app remote. It's more responsive than the regular remote.


----------



## inkahauts

"Maruuk" said:


> Seems I read the product is shipping the last week in Sept. and will be available first week in Oct.--but where would that be? Will we have to order it from D*?
> 
> BTW, thanks for the heads-up on the Fall Premieres tab in Smart Search Sigma! Very helpful. I've been scanning the guide each night myself trolling for new shows. The few I've seen have been brutally bad. But always optimistic.


Look on this forum at the tv shows tab.


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, I think for sports especially I'll try the iPad remote, can't be worse than what I got.


----------



## Maruuk

My Tivos were universally excellent and responsive--we're talking INSTANT response with never a glitch.

My D* products have been universally garbage, and I've been through most of the HR units. Terrible response, frequent crashing, all around infuriating.

So yeah, the Tivo name does have significance to me. It actually works. Try that sometime, D*.


----------



## sigma1914

Maruuk said:


> My Tivos were universally excellent and responsive--we're talking INSTANT response with never a glitch.
> 
> My D* products have been universally garbage, and I've been through most of the HR units. Terrible response, frequent crashing, all around infuriating.
> 
> So yeah, the Tivo name does have significance to me. It actually works. Try that sometime, D*.


I've had much the opposite results with many Tivos. My point - For every "garbage" HR, there's someone who had "garbage" Tivos.


----------



## Maruuk

Neither my experience, nor what I've read in these pages. Tivo has a large and loyal following in here. DBS is littered with frustrated D* users made crazy with the sloppy UI, crashes and constant updates that never fix core issues.

But with this Tivo coming in with hybrid (non-exclusive) tech, all bets are off pending customer trials. Could be great, could be same old D* disposable junk.


----------



## Laxguy

Maruuk said:


> My Tivos were universally excellent and responsive--we're talking INSTANT response with never a glitch.
> 
> My D* products have been universally garbage, and I've been through most of the HR units. Terrible response, frequent crashing, all around infuriating.
> 
> So yeah, the Tivo name does have significance to me. It actually works. Try that sometime, D*.


It's "TiVo", for starters. I had one; it was all right. Better features than were available at the time. But that was then, and then was all a much tinier feed- SD. This is now; I have scant interest in any SD broadcasts.

*We'll just have to see*. I hope it rocks, but it had better include an espresso maker for me to switch.


----------



## inkahauts

"Maruuk" said:


> My Tivos were universally excellent and responsive--we're talking INSTANT response with never a glitch.
> 
> My D* products have been universally garbage, and I've been through most of the HR units. Terrible response, frequent crashing, all around infuriating.
> 
> So yeah, the Tivo name does have significance to me. It actually works. Try that sometime, D*.


Frequent crashing? I think you have an install issue. I have never had that issue, and from what I have read, that's often some sort of install issue. Response speed can depend on the unit, but that is about to get much better all around for all hrs. and TiVo was never a fast responder for me either though.

If I had to rank all the dvrs I have ever used for overall functionality and reliability, and giving the biggest weight to recording reliability...

Relaytv
Ultimatetv
Hr from Directv
TiVo

You say Directv doesn't work, but I say let me know when TiVo knows how to make a unit that I can set up a wish list and have it actually work for recording sports. They have failed since their inception on that one. No other dvr I have ever had has had that issue. Directv hrs actually work. Try that sometime TiVo.  if it can't record the shows I want it's useless.

But with anything, some people are bound to have a different experience than me. However, most people search out forum boards for one of two reasons, they really like the product and are techie or they have a complaint. You don't get the happy people that aren't more of a power user on a forum like this, so to say you think that the posts around here show that the majority of people are unhappy and think TiVo is a better product might be a bit flawed. In fact most people that where once TiVo lovers have expressed disappointment in the new TiVo in comparison to the hrs.


----------



## inkahauts

"Maruuk" said:


> Neither my experience, nor what I've read in these pages. Tivo has a large and loyal following in here. DBS is littered with frustrated D* users made crazy with the sloppy UI, crashes and constant updates that never fix core issues.
> 
> But with this Tivo coming in with hybrid (non-exclusive) tech, all bets are off pending customer trials. Could be great, could be same old D* disposable junk.


What sloppy ui are you talking about?


----------



## evnow

When is this getting released? I'm now with Dish - and thinking of switching because Dish refuses to have any 3D channels.

Having never had Tivo (used ReplyTV earlier !) - would like to try this out. Will whole house DVR work with this receiver ? Is there a thread/post that compares the new HD GUI receiver with the existing Directv receivers ?


----------



## dpeters11

"evnow" said:


> When is this getting released? I'm now with Dish - and thinking of switching because Dish refuses to have any 3D channels.
> 
> Having never had Tivo (used ReplyTV earlier !) - would like to try this out. Will whole house DVR work with this receiver ?


All reports are that it won't. A First look of the HD GUI hasn't been released yet.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Don't know when it will be released. And no credible hints either.

Do not expect Whole Home DVR with this release or any content sharing software for that matter. For a decision making process, I would presume it will not have WHDVR anytime soon, unless we hear otherwise.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## evnow

Tom Robertson said:


> For a decision making process, I would presume it will not have WHDVR anytime soon, unless we hear otherwise.


Hmmm, so I'd have to get 2 of these receivers - which means $200 extra at the time of joining, if I join online ... vs $100 if I just get an extra HD receiver.

Assuming they don't charge a higher price for these receivers compared to existing ones.


----------



## tonyd79

"Maruuk" said:


> My Tivos were universally excellent and responsive--we're talking INSTANT response with never a glitch.
> 
> My D* products have been universally garbage, and I've been through most of the HR units. Terrible response, frequent crashing, all around infuriating.
> 
> So yeah, the Tivo name does have significance to me. It actually works. Try that sometime, D*.


My last TiVo crashed at least twice a week. The channel lineup was usually several weeks behind changes by comcast and it did not record at least one show a month.

My previous TiVo lost entire series at least twice when Directv changed their data stream.

Your point?


----------



## tonyd79

"CuriousMark" said:


> Of course not, it is not about the machine deciding,that came from the two of you. It is about ease of use so you can decide without getting lost in a grid guide. If you can do it on dtv, show me how.


I dunno. Maybe Menu / smart search / suggested searches / fall tv premieres?

Or I use

AALL PREMIERE CCHAN 2 60

For premieres on network tv.

Just because you don't know how to use something doesn't mean it can't do it.

Besides, you said you get to record them all without any work. That is letting the machine decide for you. I've used guru guides. They are a mess.


----------



## Tom Robertson

evnow said:


> Hmmm, so I'd have to get 2 of these receivers - which means $200 extra at the time of joining, if I join online ... vs $100 if I just get an extra HD receiver.
> 
> Assuming they don't charge a higher price for these receivers compared to existing ones.


While I'm expecting higher prices, I do not know if it will be in the one-time category, the monthly fees, or both. We just don't know.

By the way, I'm reminded that the TiVos won't do 3D initially.

A power user like yourself might really want to look at the DIRECTV HR DVRs or wait for the HR34s.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> By the way, I'm reminded that the TiVos won't do 3D initially.


Why can't DirecTV just be like every other provider and drop the stupid TV checks? Nobody else does it, and they just cause problems with abnormal setups.


----------



## evnow

Tom Robertson said:


> By the way, I'm reminded that the TiVos won't do 3D initially.


What ?!

That definitely kills TiVo for me. And for a lot of people, I guess, what with every new piece of hardware coming this year is 3D (TVs, Projectors, HT receivers, Blu-ray players etc).


----------



## tonyd79

"Jeremy W" said:


> Why can't DirecTV just be like every other provider and drop the stupid TV checks? Nobody else does it, and they just cause problems with abnormal setups.


Full agreement. I don't have a 3D set yet and don't look forward to the process of verifying everything.


----------



## Tom Robertson

evnow said:


> What ?!
> 
> That definitely kills TiVo for me. And for a lot of people, I guess, what with every new piece of hardware coming this year is 3D (TVs, Projectors, HT receivers, Blu-ray players etc).


The hardware is willing...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## I WANT MORE

OK. Now your're starting to ...................... No 3D? That is confirmed?


----------



## Tom Robertson

I WANT MORE said:


> OK. Now your're starting to ...................... No 3D? That is confirmed?


Yes.


----------



## evnow

Tom Robertson said:


> The hardware is willing...


LOL.

But seriously - this is how HD played out. H/W led content by years - I think 3D is growing much faster. We watched the same PBS HD loop for years and we didn't get HD discs for like 10 years


----------



## RMBittner

inkahauts said:


> You are absolutely right about the use of the word TiVo. Kind of the same thing as the use of the word roller bladding or klenex.


Except that Roller Blades and Kleenex still hold their own in the marketplace as products.:sure:

Probably for a whole host of reasons, the word "TiVo" is still going strong, even though the actual brand has lost much of the momentum that it had a decade ago.

Bob


----------



## RMBittner

Maruuk said:


> firing up my iPad everytime I want to watch sports on TV seems kinda clunky.


:sure:

It takes me longer to _find_ all of my remotes than it does to "fire up" my iPad.


----------



## RMBittner

evnow said:


> Hmmm, so I'd have to get 2 of these receivers - which means $200 extra at the time of joining, if I join online ... vs $100 if I just get an extra HD receiver.
> 
> Assuming they don't charge a higher price for these receivers compared to existing ones.


Well, I would anticipate at least a slightly higher charge for the DirecTiVo units; TiVo typically comes with an associated monthly fee. (I'm a TiVo lover -- never had a problem in more than 7 years of being a customer -- and I will be getting this unit. . . but I do have to say that the rationale for charging a monthly fee -- for programming data that every other service now provides free of charge or folded into their overall cost -- is ludicrous. But I don't see that business model changing with this new unit.) My current HDTiVo unit is "grandfathered," so I don't pay anything monthly anymore, but I think the typical fee is in the $10-12/month range. Can't say if DirecTV will be in that range or not, but I would expect _some_ bump in price.

If you look back through this thread, you'll see that a date of September 25 has been mentioned as a rumored release day. Unless something is announced this next week, I think we'll all just have to wait till next Sunday/Monday to see what, if anything, transpires.

As other have said, the new DirecTiVo will _not_ have "whole-home DVR" capabilities. While some features are conjectures right now, this point is made specifically in the new training video you can find online. My own solution to this is to install both the DirecTiVo and a D* HDDVR in our main TV room and add D*'s own DVRs/Receivers elsewhere in the house. Our main viewing will be on the TiVo, since we love that UI/remote/etc., but we'll have the D* HDDVRs for "whole-home" and for handling those times when we have four (or more) recordings happening at the same time.

Bob


----------



## RMBittner

evnow said:


> What ?!
> 
> That definitely kills TiVo for me. And for a lot of people, I guess, what with every new piece of hardware coming this year is 3D (TVs, Projectors, HT receivers, Blu-ray players etc).


I think we'll be seeing 3D fading away just as quickly as it blossomed. The movie studios are already pulling back on new 3D production. The releases you're seeing now -- both entertainment and hardware -- have been years in development, so, yes, new products are coming out. But the numbers are starting to disappoint, and Hollywood, for one, is rethinking its 3D strategy.

Personally, I hate 3D now just as much as I did when it briefly showed its face in the early 80s. IMO, it's a fad that you'll see disappear -- or be constricted to a very small group of enthusiasts -- within the next 2-3 years.

Bob


----------



## evnow

RMBittner said:


> Personally, I hate 3D now just as much as I did when it briefly showed its face in the early 80s. IMO, it's a fad that you'll see disappear -- or be constricted to a very small group of enthusiasts -- within the next 2-3 years.


Funny how the expectation for the future of 3D depends on whether one likes 3D or not ! :lol:

ps : I should note that irrespective of hollywood, 3D is here to stay. Gamers love it. Remember how PS3 singlehandedly won the format war for Blu-ray.


----------



## Maruuk

3D. It is to laugh. Kid next to me at Avatar said, "Mommy, why is the screen so dark???" "Because you're wearing sunglasses, dear!"


----------



## Maruuk

It would be fair to say this community is just as polarized on Tivo as the country is politically. Based on my experience, heck, I'd vote Tivo Party over either Dems or Reps at this point. "A dedicated slo-mo in every pot!"


----------



## evnow

Tom Robertson said:


> A power user like yourself might really want to look at the DIRECTV HR DVRs or wait for the HR34s.


Looks like I can't wait for long. Costco $180 giftcard offer is expiring on Oct 5th. Don't want to take a chance about them extending the offer.


----------



## evnow

Maruuk said:


> It would be fair to say this community is just as polarized on Tivo as the country is politically. Based on my experience, heck, I'd vote Tivo Party over either Dems or Reps at this point. "A dedicated slo-mo in every pot!"


You could say the same thing about 3D


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maruuk said:


> It would be fair to say this community is just as polarized on Tivo as the country is politically. Based on my experience, heck, I'd vote Tivo Party over either Dems or Reps at this point. "A dedicated slo-mo in every pot!"


No, it would not be fair to say this community is as evenly divided as the country on politics. Polarized, perhaps; divided, not even close.

Most, by far, of the DIRECTV community and the DBSTalk community has moved on.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Maruuk

I'd love to move on to a DVR that just flat out works--unfortunately D* has yet to provide that.


----------



## Laxguy

Maruuk said:


> I'd love to move on to a DVR that just flat out works--unfortunately D* has yet to provide that.


To you.


----------



## RMBittner

evnow said:


> Funny how the expectation for the future of 3D depends on whether one likes 3D or not ! :lol:


Well, that's why I wanted to be open about my own biases...

Bob


----------



## tonyd79

Maruuk said:


> I'd love to move on to a DVR that just flat out works--unfortunately D* has yet to provide that.


Funny, I have three.


----------



## Maruuk

The hardware manufacturers are caught in the 3D backwash: Hollywood has started to pull back from 3D, and tentpole blockbusters (like Lone Ranger, etc) are getting canceled or cut way back as the budget crunch hits even Hollywood. But the manufacturers are forced to maintain the 3D inertia they tooled up for starting 2 years ago. Much harder for them to start and stop given their huge lead times and ordering schedules.

Then you've got the poor theater operators having spent scads on 3D projectors who thought 3D would be their salvation. 

3 factions out of sync with each other trying to come to grips with a slippery and expensive technology right in the middle of a Depression.

Only hope for home 3D is affordable glasses-less non-vomit-inducing content, ideally for sports. But the Nintendo 3DS brought that tech, dropped the price by a ton, and still crashed and burned.

As for theaters, current digital projectors send half the light to one eye and half to the other, which immediately results in a 50 percent reduction in illumination. Then the glasses themselves absorb light. The vast majority of theaters show 3-D at between three and six foot-lamberts (fLs). Film projection provides about 15fLs. The original IMAX format threw 22fLs at the screen. Result: Twilight instead of High Noon.

It'll stumble and stagger forward for while. But the content providers in Hollywood are heading back to 2D, though the last hope may be sports. Folks are responding quite favorably to 3D football, etc.


----------



## Maruuk

Funny, I've had 8 D* HD DVRs and _none_ of them functioned properly.

It always seems to revert to smug touters who stoop to virtual stalking (from thread to thread) vs. real users.

Agenda vs. reality.


----------



## RMBittner

Maruuk said:


> I've had 8 D* HD DVRs and _none_ of them functioned properly.


Since there _are_ options, I'm wondering why you're still a DirecTV customer. I'm not trying to be funny or anything. As a soon-to-be DTV customer, I'm truly curious what there is about the service that has led you to stay despite the bad hardware you've encountered. Because, frankly, if I'd experienced half that many faulty DVRs, I would have left.

Bob


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maruuk said:


> Funny, I've had 8 D* HD DVRs and _none_ of them functioned properly.
> 
> It always seems to revert to smug touters who stoop to virtual stalking (from thread to thread) vs. real users.
> 
> Agenda vs. reality.


Alas, it is the people with the rare experience that can sound like thems with an agenda. The ones with the more common experience are sometimes trying to help, sometimes explaining they haven't had that problem, etc.

I've many more than 8 DVRs, all have worked great. TiVo or DIRECTV.

That leads many of us to believe you had an infrastructure problem of some sort. There just aren't that many bad DIRECTV DVRs.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Maruuk

Fair enough. It's certainly a combination of things that leads me to look optimistically at the new Tivo. I had a series of hardware failures with my first D* HD-DVR: Hard drive failures out of the box, many crashes, etc. These were confirmed by the techs as clear unit failures. And the replacements were often refurbs, or as I suspect, simply repackaged failed units they just shipped out again with no repair. It certainly seemed like that. These things were failing right out of the box. HR-20's, 21's, 22's. Don't think I ever had a 23, they jumped to 24s which is what I have now.

I'm going to have to investigate this current input mess--multiple hits off one push, no response after 5-6 inputs. It's a train wreck. Certainly the RF/2.4Mz pollution is a culprit.

Does the D* RF use 2.4Mz?

IR is not really an option as I have no direct line of sight (it's below the bed sightline), and I need to control the unit from another room sometimes.

The crashing/freezing requiring reboot was happening about once a week, sometimes more but lately that does seem a bit better. Longer periods between crash. Perhaps a recent D/L improved that.

What's odd is the HR24 started out pretty good, quick (though kind of jumpy) button response, and pretty consistent. Just went downhill over time. Bought a new remote, no improvement.

Thus hope for the Tivo. It has been a very frustrating experience over the years with D* hardware/software. And tremendously time-consuming.


----------



## tonyd79

If your issues are hardware related (bad drive, RF remote noise pollution) why would you think TiVo on the same hardware is going to fix them?


----------



## bonscott87

tonyd79 said:


> If your issues are hardware related (bad drive, RF remote noise pollution) why would you think TiVo on the same hardware is going to fix them?


Was just about to post the same thing. This new DirecTivo is just an HR22 with the Tivo software on it. Exact same hardware that Maruuk has had issues with. Tivo software can't magically fix hardware issues.

As for me, I had my first Tivo way back in 2000. Had several DirecTivo's over the years and several DirecTV HRs. I had more issues with Tivo then the HR2x DVRs. The DirecTivo's overall were solid however I lost all recordings twice on two different units and wishlists never would record sports correctly. HR2x's were more reliable then that, never had a crash that lost recordings and the smart searches always autorecorded sports *correctly*.

Disclaimer that I haven't had DirecTV for nearly 2 years now so I have no recent experience with the HR2x series. I currently have Uverse and am very happy with the service and their DVR is pretty solid.

If I had to rank my favorite DVR UI's over the years:

1) Windows Media Center
2) DirecTV HR2x
3) Uverse
4) Tivo
.....
99) Charter


----------



## Draconis

bonscott87 said:


> Was just about to post the same thing. This new DirecTV is just an HR22 with the Tivo software on it. Exact same hardware that Maruuk has had issues with. *Tivo software can't magically fix hardware issues.*


:righton::lol:


----------



## inkahauts

Maruuk said:


> Fair enough. It's certainly a combination of things that leads me to look optimistically at the new Tivo. I had a series of hardware failures with my first D* HD-DVR: Hard drive failures out of the box, many crashes, etc. These were confirmed by the techs as clear unit failures. And the replacements were often refurbs, or as I suspect, simply repackaged failed units they just shipped out again with no repair. It certainly seemed like that. These things were failing right out of the box. HR-20's, 21's, 22's. Don't think I ever had a 23, they jumped to 24s which is what I have now.
> 
> I'm going to have to investigate this current input mess--multiple hits off one push, no response after 5-6 inputs. It's a train wreck. Certainly the RF/2.4Mz pollution is a culprit.
> 
> Does the D* RF use 2.4Mz?
> 
> IR is not really an option as I have no direct line of sight (it's below the bed sightline), and I need to control the unit from another room sometimes.
> 
> The crashing/freezing requiring reboot was happening about once a week, sometimes more but lately that does seem a bit better. Longer periods between crash. Perhaps a recent D/L improved that.
> 
> What's odd is the HR24 started out pretty good, quick (though kind of jumpy) button response, and pretty consistent. Just went downhill over time. Bought a new remote, no improvement.
> 
> Thus hope for the Tivo. It has been a very frustrating experience over the years with D* hardware/software. And tremendously time-consuming.


Is your dvr in a enclosed cabinet with no ventilation?

How many units do you have? You only mention one in your bedroom. Do you have others that don't have issues?

Have you tried using it IR for a while, even if it means leaning forward or what have you for a while just to see if you still have the same issues? I have 7 dvr all using rf and never had an issue with one, and many are next to other rf equipment.


----------



## Maruuk

The HR-24 is in an open cabinet, good ventilation, and the ambient room temp here seldom gets above 70.

This is the only unit. I video-send (using a 2.4Mz transmitter) the output to a second TV in another room.

I guess I will have to do the IR baseline check. Problem being that the button-push issues are so nasty that it's very hard to register the correct IR-to-RF-and-back sequences and it takes forever to get a confirm code. Took me about a half hour just to convert to RF.

I am suspicious of the too-many-2.4s around, though. Tel, vidsender, wireless headphones, weather station, all 2.4 and all in the same room.

Though I have read that D* remotes use the 430MHz RF range under FCC Part 15 rules, so there shouldn't be any conflict with 2.4Mz.


----------



## Maruuk

While it's true that hardware is hardware is hardware, we do know that firmware/software can affect performance/response issues. Otherwise all these D/Ls from D* would be meaningless. Many folks have reported improvements in input response, speed and other UI issues after certain revs came down the pike. And sometimes things even get worse after a D/L. But they do change sometimes. So hardware isn't the only determinant.


----------



## Jeremy W

Maruuk said:


> Problem being that the button-push issues are so nasty that it's very hard to register the correct IR-to-RF-and-back sequences and it takes forever to get a confirm code. Took me about a half hour just to convert to RF.


What?


----------



## Maruuk

You have to execute a sequence of button-pushes to switch remote modes. That's great if your unit is responding correctly. Tough if it's not.

Will the Tivo solve any of these issues? Maybe the software will clear up the input issues. If so, it'd be worth a lot.


----------



## Jeremy W

Maruuk said:


> You have to execute a sequence of button-pushes to switch remote modes. That's great if your unit is responding correctly. Tough if it's not.


I don't understand why you'd spend a half hour fighting with your DVR instead of just walking up to it and using the buttons on the unit itself.


----------



## bonscott87

Maruuk said:


> The HR-24 is in an open cabinet, good ventilation, and the ambient room temp here seldom gets above 70.
> 
> This is the only unit. I video-send (using a 2.4Mz transmitter) the output to a second TV in another room.
> 
> I guess I will have to do the IR baseline check. Problem being that the button-push issues are so nasty that it's very hard to register the correct IR-to-RF-and-back sequences and it takes forever to get a confirm code. Took me about a half hour just to convert to RF.
> 
> I am suspicious of the too-many-2.4s around, though. Tel, vidsender, wireless headphones, weather station, all 2.4 and all in the same room.
> 
> Though I have read that D* remotes use the 430MHz RF range under FCC Part 15 rules, so there shouldn't be any conflict with 2.4Mz.


I think all that other stuff is the root of your problem...remote wise at least. I had issues until I changed my cordless phone to a higher frequency (5.2?). I think it's pretty obvious you have a ton of interference going on. Go IR and see how it goes.


----------



## CuriousMark

tonyd79 said:


> I dunno. Maybe Menu / smart search / suggested searches / fall tv premieres?
> 
> Or I use
> 
> AALL PREMIERE CCHAN 2 60
> 
> For premieres on network tv.
> 
> Just because you don't know how to use something doesn't mean it can't do it.
> 
> Besides, you said you get to record them all without any work. That is letting the machine decide for you. I've used guru guides. They are a mess.


As with everything else here, much of it is in the eye of the beholder.

I made my way into the room where the HR24 lives and tried the smart search. It is pretty good, and fairly similar to a Guru Guide in function. It lumps new and returning shows together into a single list instead of providing two lists, but that is a minor difference. It seems to focus on networks only, I didn't see some of the cable premieres that the Guru Guide found. I suspect that is because Guru Guides are hand tailored and not just an automated search. All in all the search is a good 3/4 of a Guru Guide and the interface and jumps to the series link screens are nice.

Your second suggestion of learning a DirecTV specific search programming language doesn't meet the ease of use test, but I can see how it appeals to programmer types. As descirbed it is limited to networks, but by tuning it to look on the cable channels it is a way to pick up what the search is missing. It is certainly not a substitute for the Guru Guides or Canned searches though, those are both nice easy to use features for the non technical TV viewer.

I rate the Guru Guide on a TiVo higher than the canned search due to completeness. But I have to give UI points to the canned search with its show synopsis and direct access to the series link and upcoming showing information. I value the completenss more than the style so in a head to head competition I rate the Guru Guide as better, but not by a whole lot.

Ninja edit: Others may value the search higher, to each his own.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I just plain old don't know if the Guru Guide will make it into the THR22. What I do know is that in all these years that I've been hearing about it, I don't recall anyone saying it will.


----------



## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> I just plain old don't know if the Guru Guide will make it into the THR22. What I do know is that in all these years that I've been hearing about it, I don't recall anyone saying it will.


Agreed. However, it is an offshoot of kidzone on the standalone TiVo DVRs. Part of Kidzone includes hand crafted guides of child safe, or child friendly shows to use to populate the Childrens now playing list. The Guru guides are the versions for everyone and include sports guides, recommended show guides from people like "E" and such. Since Kidzone has been talked about as being included, there is a better than even chance that the Guru guide part will have also made it. The only reason they would not be there is if they were intentionally excluded for one reason or another.


----------



## tonyd79

CuriousMark said:


> As with everything else here, much of it is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> I made my way into the room where the HR24 lives and tried the smart search. It is pretty good, and fairly similar to a Guru Guide in function. It lumps new and returning shows together into a single list instead of providing two lists, but that is a minor difference. It seems to focus on networks only, I didn't see some of the cable premieres that the Guru Guide found. I suspect that is because Guru Guides are hand tailored and not just an automated search. All in all the search is a good 3/4 of a Guru Guide and the interface and jumps to the series link screens are nice.


That is because the expression I gave you is limited to channels 2 through 60. You can construct it anyway you want. Mine was focused on OTA channels so it was 2 through 60 (actually 2 through 54 would work in my market).



CuriousMark said:


> Your second suggestion of learning a DirecTV specific search programming language doesn't meet the ease of use test, but I can see how it appeals to programmer types. As descirbed it is limited to networks, but by tuning it to look on the cable channels it is a way to pick up what the search is missing. It is certainly not a substitute for the Guru Guides or Canned searches though, those are both nice easy to use features for the non technical TV viewer.
> 
> I rate the Guru Guide on a TiVo higher than the canned search due to completeness. But I have to give UI points to the canned search with its show synopsis and direct access to the series link and upcoming showing information. I value the completenss more than the style so in a head to head competition I rate the Guru Guide as better, but not by a whole lot.
> 
> Ninja edit: Others may value the search higher, to each his own.


As I said,I had big issues with the Guru Guides. It gave me stuff I cannot get because Tivo assumed I got every danged OTA channel they had in their database for about 150 mile radius. It also gave me SD channels rather than HD channels.

As for the logic and language, it is very straight forward and easier to use once it is explained to you than the interface driven logical search on the Tivo. (BTW, I like the old advanced search they had that you go to through a hack...the UI one stinks to high heaven.)

Lastly, because the Guru Guide is NOT a true search but an entry by "gurus" at Tivo, who says you can rely on its completeness? Craft your own search on either system and you will get better results.


----------



## RMBittner

tonyd79 said:


> I had big issues with the Guru Guides. It gave me stuff I cannot get because Tivo assumed I got every danged OTA channel they had in their database for about 150 mile radius. It also gave me SD channels rather than HD channels. . . . Lastly, because the Guru Guide is NOT a true search but an entry by "gurus" at Tivo, who says you can rely on its completeness? Craft your own search on either system and you will get better results.


I have to agree on this. I like the _idea_ of Guru Guides much more than I like the implementation. For me, they're occasionally helpful for highlighting things that I might have overlooked, but the frustrations -- as noted by the quotes above -- make them only marginally useful at best. And then, only as information, not for actually setting up recordings or SPs.

But, of course, YMMV.

Bob


----------



## CuriousMark

tonyd79 said:


> That is because the expression I gave you is limited to channels 2 through 60. You can construct it anyway you want. Mine was focused on OTA channels so it was 2 through 60 (actually 2 through 54 would work in my market).


Agreed, I did say that it could be tuned to aim at the cable channels, so we are in agreement here. It is geeky, but for those so inclined it is a fine addition.



> As I said,I had big issues with the Guru Guides. It gave me stuff I cannot get because Tivo assumed I got every danged OTA channel they had in their database for about 150 mile radius. It also gave me SD channels rather than HD channels.


I see. I don't have OTA so I can't tell if I would have that problem or not. I do see that guru listings for shows on channel that I do not get come up as unchecked by default. So it does seem to be paying attention to my channel list and only pre-checking those that I get or have enabled. Perhaps that is a recent improvement? You are talking past tense, so perhaps it would be better for you now. It is hard to say, but the issues you mention would have been fairly annoying. As far as SD vs HD goes, I am doing this with an S2 driving an H25, so I only get HD channels by default. Luckily the H25 squirts those out anamorphically and I record them at DVD 720x480 quality to give a pretty good SD experience for those shows. It's not HD, but lets me grab news and scifi stuff that conflicts with the network HD stuff we record on my wifes HR24.



> As for the logic and language, it is very straight forward and easier to use once it is explained to you than the interface driven logical search on the Tivo. (BTW, I like the old advanced search they had that you go to through a hack...the UI one stinks to high heaven.)


For you and me, yes, for grandma or a wife, probably not. That is the test I was applying as far as ease of use goes. A cheat sheet of the keywords would be needed for a beginner. It looks like, from your example, that keywords are derived from english language counterparts, but without a decoder ring, they aren't very guessable.



> Lastly, because the Guru Guide is NOT a true search but an entry by "gurus" at Tivo, who says you can rely on its completeness? Craft your own search on either system and you will get better results.


Having played with both in the last 24 hours, I can say that the Guru guide is more complete than the canned search + your example + your example changed to look at the 240 - 300 range. Is it absolute, probably not, but someone spent time to make it complete and it appears they did a pretty good job. It is possible that significant time put into a group of handcrafted searches could find something it missed. It is also likely to be something pretty far off the beaten track.

You have a system that works well for you and people can come here and read your posts and learn to do the same if they are so inclined. Those that don't know any better, at least have a canned search that gets them 75% or better of the way there. That should be good enough for most. When the TiVo comes out, if it has the Guru guide it will do a bit better than the canned search and users will probably like that.

Guru Guide is not sufficient reason to dump an HR24 in favor of the THR22, but it is one small area where it is marginally better.


----------



## tonyd79

CuriousMark said:


> Having played with both in the last 24 hours, I can say that the Guru guide is more complete than the canned search + your example + your example changed to look at the 240 - 300 range. Is it absolute, probably not, but someone spent time to make it complete and it appears they did a pretty good job. It is possible that significant time put into a group of handcrafted searches could find something it missed. It is also likely to be something pretty far off the beaten track.


I seriously doubt that as the search I am doing is on actual guide data. Maybe you have something in your GG that is not scheduled for the next two weeks, but I find that useless if it is not anyway.

But, you can believe it if you want.


----------



## mkdtv21

So can anyone confirm that the Directv Tivo will be available to order Sunday?


----------



## litzdog911

mkdtv21 said:


> So can anyone confirm that the Directv Tivo will be available to order Sunday?


Nope.


----------



## Maruuk




----------



## I WANT MORE

Shut the front door.........


----------



## sigma1914

Maruuk is only 2 months late in posting that. The link is in this article http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-07/will-the-directv-tivo-arrive-this-month/

I thought someone here posted a similar screenshot here awhile back. It's just a placeholder for future use.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Right... there's not even a guarantee that those prices are accurate.


----------



## RMBittner

sigma1914 said:


> It's just a placeholder for future use.


I'm guessing that won't be the last time that someone here will need to clarify that.

Bob


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Gentlemen, please take your private conversation to private message. 

As to the question of placeholder or not... the FPO on the image speaks to that. FPO is a design term meaning "for position only," in other words, a placeholder.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> As to the question of placeholder or not... the FPO on the image speaks to that. FPO is a design term meaning "for position only," in other words, a placeholder.


It's also showing an HR24, so it's not even remotely accurate.


----------



## RMBittner

Stuart Sweet said:


> Gentlemen, please take your private conversation to private message.


Could you clarify what private conversation you mean? (I don't _think_ I'm part of it, but I don't want to unknowingly overstep.)

Feel free to PM me if you think that's appropriate.

Bob


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Sorry for the confusion. The parties to whom I referred know who they are. Mr. Bittner, you're cool


----------



## Maruuk

Ok, now actual facts. The D* "ad" may in fact be quite real and the final price. NOBODY knows. As in, NOBODY. Outside of D*.

"Late"? Compared to what? Did anybody say this was some kind of race or put a time stamp on the image? It is in fact an actual D* image. I didn't say it was current. It is real, direct from D*.

Anything else is speculation, not facts. And speaking of facts, this is a fact, and current...

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...source=k392086


----------



## Jeremy W

Maruuk said:


> Ok, now actual facts. The D* "ad" may in fact be quite real and the final price. NOBODY knows. As in, NOBODY. Outside of D*.


Facts? How about the *fact* that we know the image is not real. That casts a whole lot of doubt on everything else.


Maruuk said:


> "Late"? Compared to what?


It's late because it was posted and discussed to death in this very thread months ago.


Maruuk said:


> And speaking of facts, this is a fact, and current...


The only fact is that the page exists. Whether the information contained on it is accurate or not is pure speculation.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Jeremy W said:


> Facts? How about the *fact* that we know the image is not real. That casts a whole lot of doubt on everything else.
> 
> It's late because it was posted and discussed to death in this very thread months ago.
> 
> The only fact is that the page exists. Whether the information contained on it is accurate or not is pure speculation.


From that screenshot, its pretty clear that its the IMAGE that was FPO. While its "speculation", its been "speculated" for a long time now that $99/$5 is what its going to cost. Nobody has confirmed it. Heck... nobody has even confirmed this thing will even see the light of day PERIOD. I think thats the first thing that needs to ironed out .


----------



## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> its been "speculated" for a long time now that $99/$5 is what its going to cost.


Plenty of things have been speculated for a long time, that doesn't make them right.


----------



## harsh

Jeremy W said:


> Plenty of things have been speculated for a long time, that doesn't make them right.


Nor does it make them wrong (or even improbable).

What is fact is that in the absence of detailed facts from DIRECTV, the community will collectively create its own "facts". Some of the "facts" will be "happy" and some not.

I believe the key lies in a thoughtful analysis of the "facts" as opposed to a pillorying of those who suggest or show support for them.


----------



## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> I believe the key lies in a thoughtful analysis of the "facts" as opposed to a pillorying of those who suggest or show support for them.


Yes, posting an old image with zero context is a very thoughtful analysis.


----------



## jahgreen

Maruuk said:


> Ok, now actual facts. The D* "ad" may in fact be quite real and the final price. NOBODY knows. As in, NOBODY. Outside of D*.
> 
> "Late"? Compared to what? Did anybody say this was some kind of race or put a time stamp on the image? It is in fact an actual D* image. I didn't say it was current. It is real, direct from D*.
> 
> Anything else is speculation, not facts. And speaking of facts, this is a fact, and current...
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...source=k392086


Page no longer exists.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Ok, that's funny right there. 

In seriousness...

I do think the stars are starting to align for the THR22. Will we need a Q411 thread? I'm going to guess probably yes. But a Q1-2012 thread... I sort of doubt it.


----------



## Jeremy W

jahgreen said:


> Page no longer exists.





Stuart Sweet said:


> Ok, that's funny right there.


The page is still there, Maruuk just copied the link incorrectly: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...O-THR22-High-Definition-MPEG-4-HD-DVR-(THR-22)


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> Ok, that's funny right there.
> 
> In seriousness...
> 
> I do think the stars are starting to align for the THR22. Will we need a Q411 thread? I'm going to guess probably yes. But a Q1-2012 thread... I sort of doubt it.


You're going to be needing a Q1-*2014* thread :grin:.


----------



## scamp

will this thing support the AM21 for OTA recordings?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Probably, but of course we're not 100% sure.


----------



## mkdtv21

On a side note does the THR22 box have a glossy finish or just a regular one.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think matte but that's just a guess based on the fact that all the late manufacture HR22s were matte.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think matte but that's just a guess based on the fact that all the late manufacture HR22s were matte.


It's also matte in the picture that's been floating around here.


----------



## inkahauts

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> I think matte but that's just a guess based on the fact that all the late manufacture HR22s were matte.


I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a totally different look for the front panel. I almost expect it to look like the front panel of a TiVo premier unit. I am sure it will have a TiVo logo.


----------



## Maruuk

Like I said, this is for some reason an insanely polarizing issue. Reams of Tivo haters coming out of the woodwork attacking any possibility that this could be a worthy unit.

Of course it supports the AM21, as stated, it has no internal tuner.

But since there's so much we DON'T know, let's save the rage for post-launch when we can all go ballistic about actual facts.


----------



## ATARI

Maruuk said:


> Like I said, this is for some reason an insanely polarizing issue. Reams of Tivo haters coming out of the woodwork attacking any possibility that this could be a worthy unit.
> 
> Of course it supports the AM21, as stated, it has no internal tuner.
> 
> But since there's so much we DON'T know, let's save the rage for post-launch when we can all go ballistic about actual facts.


So you know for a FACT that it supports the AM21?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Anyone who knows anything for a fact would be foolish to post it here. But I can say with 72.45% certainty that AM21 support is expected. How's that for politics?


----------



## jfalkingham

Stuart Sweet said:


> Anyone who knows anything for a fact would be foolish to post it here. But I can say with 72.45% certainty that AM21 support is expected. How's that for politics?


Anytime I see percentages I think:

"Doctors say Nordberg has a 50/50 chance of living, but there's only a 10% chance of that"


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have a totally different look for the front panel.


Considering the fact that we've already seen what it looks like, both in pictures here and in the training video, I would be absolutely shocked if it had a totally different look.


----------



## Maruuk

D* couldn't release anything without either an internal tuner or AM21 support. Seen any internal tuners in the HR22?

Some things are rocket science. Most aren't.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Folks, I have deleted several posts that were a little too rude, along with some replies that referred to those posts. Please try to be a little more polite.


----------



## Maruuk

+1.


----------



## Jeremy W

Maruuk said:


> D* couldn't release anything without either an internal tuner or AM21 support.


Where, may I ask, did you procure this fine piece of information from?


----------



## ejjames

Stuart Sweet said:


> Anyone who knows anything for a fact would be foolish to post it here. But I can say with 72.45% certainty that AM21 support is expected. How's that for politics?


Is that the Vegas official over/under? Let's make this interesting people!


----------



## tonyd79

"Jeremy W" said:


> Where, may I ask, did you procure this fine piece of information from?


Hahaha.


----------



## crkeehn

Maruuk said:


> Like I said, this is for some reason an insanely polarizing issue. Reams of Tivo haters coming out of the woodwork attacking any possibility that this could be a worthy unit.
> 
> Of course it supports the AM21, as stated, it has no internal tuner.
> 
> But since there's so much we DON'T know, let's save the rage for post-launch when we can all go ballistic about actual facts.


Strangely enough, I haven't seen the "reams of Tivo haters" that you allude to. I have seen people who have waited too long for a promised receiver and who have seen the DirecTV receivers become more capable with each software update.

Had the Tivo HD receiver come out in a timely manner, I would have expected more enthusiasm but for too many people it's too little, too late. The DirecTV HD-DVR is not perfect, however the Tivo receivers have had their share of problems also. There have been software releases for the SD tivos that have made them unstable, just as there have been for the DTV receivers. Eventually in both cases, they have been corrected.

If the new DirecTivo were to add or expand capabilities, then I'm sure the same "tivo haters" would be welcoming it wildly. Unfortunately, progress appears to have passed it by and for a number of people, the tivo interface is not going to be enough to save it.


----------



## SledgeHammer

crkeehn said:


> Strangely enough, I haven't seen the "reams of Tivo haters" that you allude to. I have seen people who have waited too long for a promised receiver and who have seen the DirecTV receivers become more capable with each software update.
> 
> Had the Tivo HD receiver come out in a timely manner, I would have expected more enthusiasm but for too many people it's too little, too late. The DirecTV HD-DVR is not perfect, however the Tivo receivers have had their share of problems also. There have been software releases for the SD tivos that have made them unstable, just as there have been for the DTV receivers. Eventually in both cases, they have been corrected.
> 
> If the new DirecTivo were to add or expand capabilities, then I'm sure the same "tivo haters" would be welcoming it wildly. Unfortunately, progress appears to have passed it by and for a number of people, the tivo interface is not going to be enough to save it.


The only real argument I've ever seen in any of these threads is that the Tivo can have more SLs. All the other arguments have been pretty much "I just like Tivo better" (without any reasons) or "my wife refuses to learn the new DVR, so we'll just stick with the 2 or 3 HD channels we have".

While its a bit complicated to set up for the avg user, you can combine SLs on the HD-DVR and get around the SL limit.

Aside from that argument, there isn't really much. The first HD-DVRs were awful, yes, but they have quickly matured to way surpass the Tivos.


----------



## JBernardK

SledgeHammer said:


> The only real argument I've ever seen in any of these threads is that the Tivo can have more SLs. All the other arguments have been pretty much "I just like Tivo better" (without any reasons) or "my wife refuses to learn the new DVR, so we'll just stick with the 2 or 3 HD channels we have".
> 
> While its a bit complicated to set up for the avg user, you can combine SLs on the HD-DVR and get around the SL limit.
> 
> Aside from that argument, there isn't really much. The first HD-DVRs were awful, yes, but they have quickly matured to way surpass the Tivos.


Tjhere is a pretty good list here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164125

Some of these are OBE, but many still remain.


----------



## jameskelly

I just don't understand the reason for members to be so rude and obnoxious. It's just TV! I just don't get it.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JBernardK said:


> Tjhere is a pretty good list here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164125
> 
> Some of these are OBE, but many still remain.


Nobody ever said the HD-DVRs are perfect, most just say it blown away the HR10-250 in almost every category. It is a well established fact, that you are going to get an HR10-250 + MPEG4 - built in OTA with this box.


----------



## CuriousMark

SledgeHammer said:


> Nobody ever said the HD-DVRs are perfect, most just say it blown away the HR10-250 in almost every category. It is a well established fact, that you are going to get an HR10-250 + MPEG4 - built in OTA with this box.


Plus:


kidzone
support for active screens (color buttons on remote)
Cinema Plus, download from internet
Video On Demand
SWM capable
Free Space Indicator
HR22 like output modes over HDMI, (1080P24 anyone?)

So that description is still a bit of an oversimplification. Comparisons agains the DirecTV HD DVRs are even more complicated, so that is why the HR10-250+MPEG4 description is easier to throw out. Most of the reason for that comparison is that the UI is still based on the SD UI HR10-250 users are familiar with.

Somewhere back in one of these threads I did a comparison against the current standalone TiVo DVRs, and someone else did a comparison against the HR's. It is there to be dug up by anyone willing to spend a fair amount of effort searching for it.

I am sure there are many that this box will appeal to just as there are many here who have to repeatedly say it won't appeal to them. Rather than just throwing out the opinioins, it is probably better to try to provide the best information we have and let the reader make up their own mind.


----------



## Jeremy W

CuriousMark said:


> Rather than just throwing out the opinioins, it is probably better to try to provide the best information we have and let the reader make up their own mind.


This thread is all about information *and* opinions. Everything you just posted has already been posted in this thread, just like "I don't care about this" has already been posted 1000 times before. It's just the nature of this beast.

If you want to get away from the doubters, I'm sure TCF is still a very warm and fuzzy place for Tivo lovers.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jameskelly said:


> I just don't understand the reason for members to be so rude and obnoxious. It's just TV! I just don't get it.


Thanks for posting what you and I think should be obvious. 

While TV is very important to some people, I still agree with everything you say. There isn't any need to be rude or obnoxious. We're all just regular (geek) folk reading, helping, and learning.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## wingrider01

CuriousMark said:


> Plus:
> 
> 
> kidzone
> support for active screens (color buttons on remote)
> Cinema Plus, download from internet
> Video On Demand
> SWM capable
> Free Space Indicator
> HR22 like output modes over HDMI, (1080P24 anyone?)
> 
> So that description is still a bit of an oversimplification. Comparisons agains the DirecTV HD DVRs are even more complicated, so that is why the HR10-250+MPEG4 description is easier to throw out. Most of the reason for that comparison is that the UI is still based on the SD UI HR10-250 users are familiar with.
> 
> Somewhere back in one of these threads I did a comparison against the current standalone TiVo DVRs, and someone else did a comparison against the HR's. It is there to be dug up by anyone willing to spend a fair amount of effort searching for it.
> 
> I am sure there are many that this box will appeal to just as there are many here who have to repeatedly say it won't appeal to them. Rather than just throwing out the opinioins, it is probably better to try to provide the best information we have and let the reader make up their own mind.


thing about your comments is, with the exception of 1 item - Kidzone, none of the others are functions of the converted tivo software, they are normal built in functions of the hr22, nothing different then a directtv supplied unit. So other then the kidzone and the Windows 3.0 type GUI it brings nothing unique that makes it stand out.


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## inkahauts

JBernardK said:


> Tjhere is a pretty good list here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164125
> 
> Some of these are OBE, but many still remain.


90% of his "issues" are his opinions on how a dvr should work instead of the way DirecTV programmed their DVR. That's part of the reason that Tivo coming back to DIrectv is a good thing IMHO. It gives consumers the choice between two different interfaces and thought processes for their DVRs to choose from. Unfortunately, because Tivo is so slow at programming a reliable box, the new tivo is going to be considered not simply another option, but a shorthanded option. I think that's the biggest problem. If it was at least on par with the DirecTV units in terms of major functions, like MRV, eSata, etc, then I think the unit in the eyes of many would be far more relevant.

I personally don't like tivos, I feel they treat you like a 5 year old and don't allow for the most obvious shortcuts, and have zero reliability in recording sports, but that doesn't mean people can't have similar issues with the DIrectv DVRs, just read that post! To them I say I am glad Tivo will give you an alternative. I just wish the alternative had a few more features to make it less of a choice between functions and more of a choice between style, which this tivo will be majorly lacking for may people.


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## CuriousMark

"wingrider01" said:


> thing about your comments is, with the exception of 1 item - Kidzone, none of the others are functions of the converted tivo software, they are normal built in functions of the hr22, nothing different then a directtv supplied unit. So other then the kidzone and the Windows 3.0 type GUI it brings nothing unique that makes it stand out.


I was comparing hr 10-250 and was clear that other comparisons are available.


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## bengalfreak

inkahauts said:


> I personally don't like tivos, I feel they treat you like a 5 year old and don't allow for the most obvious shortcuts, and have zero reliability in recording sports


Zero reliability in recording sports? I dunno how you come up with that. I never missed a single sporting event in five years of Tivo ownership.

I'm a, for the most part, very happy owner of four DirecTV HDDVR's. I feel they are vastly superior to the Tivo's in most respects. It would be nice if they had Netflix acess, but that's not gonna happen.

What I really do not like about the HR-2x's is the guide. Tivo's guide is light years ahead and its format is ten years old. Why DirecTV cannot come up with something similar, I have no idea. Being able to show several hours of what's on the current channel, as well as what's on multiple channels at the current time just makes a great guide. I wish DirecTV would also give you the option of turning off the live video in the upper right corner of the guide in order to be able to show more entries too.


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## bonscott87

bengalfreak said:


> Zero reliability in recording sports? I dunno how you come up with that. I never missed a single sporting event in five years of Tivo ownership.


I think he's referring to wishlists as noted a few pages back. I had the same issue, none of my several DirecTivo's would record sports reliably via wishlists and I resorted to using the wishlist as a "saved search" and manually chose to record the games. Many have the same experience.

No problems at all with the HR2x series with the advanced autorecord search. Once they released that I set up a simple boolean search and it would record every game and pre-game show flawlessly.


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## Laxguy

bengalfreak said:


> What I really do not like about the HR-2x's is the guide. Tivo's guide is light years ahead and its format is ten years old. Why DirecTV cannot come up with something similar, I have no idea. Being able to show several hours of what's on the current channel, as well as what's on multiple channels at the current time just makes a great guide. I wish DirecTV would also give you the option of turning off the live video in the upper right corner of the guide in order to be able to show more entries too.


I know this 'solution' won't appeal to most, and some will be horrified, but the iPad app in conjunction with DirecTV is fabulous. You get the guide showing nine channels for 1, 2 or 3 hours. You use it and there's no corner window with the show (though I'd want a larger window when I am not using the iPad; about 50% larger). It now has a unified play list, and you can delete from the 'Pad. There's more to it, of course.


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## Richierich

bengalfreak said:


> What I really do not like about the HR-2x's is the guide. Tivo's guide is light years ahead and its format is ten years old. Why DirecTV cannot come up with something similar, I have no idea. Being able to show several hours of what's on the current channel, as well as what's on multiple channels at the current time just makes a great guide. I wish DirecTV would also give you the option of turning off the live video in the upper right corner of the guide in order to be able to show more entries too.


+1000


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## inkahauts

"bengalfreak" said:


> Zero reliability in recording sports? I dunno how you come up with that. I never missed a single sporting event in five years of Tivo ownership.
> 
> I'm a, for the most part, very happy owner of four DirecTV HDDVR's. I feel they are vastly superior to the Tivo's in most respects. It would be nice if they had Netflix acess, but that's not gonna happen.
> 
> What I really do not like about the HR-2x's is the guide. Tivo's guide is light years ahead and its format is ten years old. Why DirecTV cannot come up with something similar, I have no idea. Being able to show several hours of what's on the current channel, as well as what's on multiple channels at the current time just makes a great guide. I wish DirecTV would also give you the option of turning off the live video in the upper right corner of the guide in order to be able to show more entries too.


You cant set it up and walk away and expect it to record every game of your favorite team, every season, and only the live games, with no pre or post game shows, etc. You have to manually select each program in your guide to record it. Wish lists are terrible. You get one in five games, and about twice as much non game recordings as you do the games for some teams.

On the contrary my arsls on my hr units where set up once, and haven't missed any game of any of my sports teams and continue to work great every season and never record pre and post games, because I don't want those. The hrs are perfect for recording sports, I'd be willing to say better than or at least equal to any other dvr ever made. Can't say that for TiVo.

As for your guide issue, that's such a preference thing. I hate that tivo guide in general, but I can absolutely see why you like it. The hrs have something close, but not quite the same. Highlight a channel in the guide and hit info.... I am finding the iPad app though incredibly good because I can record to any dvr from it, where as I have to be in front of the dvr otherwise. It's fast becoming my favorite thing about the hrs.

Oh and Turing off live video wouldn't get you more lines in the playlist. They still would use that space for the shows info. They need to be convinced that they can make the text slightly smaller and spaced differently to get more lines and hours in the guide.


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## RMBittner

Darn it. . . September 25 has come and gone. . . and nothing on the DirecTV site suggests that the DirecTiVo is now available. So now I need a new date that I can pin my hopes to.

Here's my completely uninformed, wishful-thinking, hope-springs-eternal statement: On October 9, 2011, the new HDTiVo will be released by DirecTV. 

Anyone else wanna play this game with me?

Bob


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## mkdtv21

Why do I have a feeling the HD gui will be released before the Tivo.


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## tivoboy

Well, my H10-250 is starting to fail again, so the new d* directivo must be near.


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## RMBittner

mkdtv21 said:


> Why do I have a feeling the HD gui will be released before the Tivo.


Hopefully Charles Manson won't be released before the TiVo...

Bob


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## I WANT MORE

mkdtv21 said:


> Why do I have a feeling the HD gui will be released before the Tivo.


Ummmmmm, HDGUI, Ummmmmmm.


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## ejjames

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered. 

I was wondering if anyone knew if the anticipated tivo will require a phone line for activation? I have a Vonage type system that never did work with the 10-250, and finding a friend or neighbor with a traditional land line becomes rarer everyday. It would be great if it was not needed. (My 2 HR10-250's give me the " has not connected for 4xx days)

My first guess is that the call is needed for tivo software, but my hope is that, like the HR22, it can be done via sat.


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## Jeremy W

ejjames said:


> I was wondering if anyone knew if the anticipated tivo will require a phone line for activation?


There is virtually zero chance of that being the case.


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## inkahauts

ejjames said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked and answered.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone knew if the anticipated tivo will require a phone line for activation? I have a Vonage type system that never did work with the 10-250, and finding a friend or neighbor with a traditional land line becomes rarer everyday. It would be great if it was not needed. (My 2 HR10-250's give me the " has not connected for 4xx days)
> 
> My first guess is that the call is needed for tivo software, but my hope is that, like the HR22, it can be done via sat.


As I recall, I think part of the deal was the new tivo had to get firmware and guide data updates all through the sat system like the rest of their boxes, and not the old tivo way of using a phone.


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## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> As I recall, I think part of the deal was the new tivo had to get firmware and guide data updates all through the sat system like the rest of their boxes, and not the old tivo way of using a phone.


The old DirecTivos received guide data and software updates over the satellite just like any other receiver. They just had to call in to be "authorized" for a software upgrade, although IIRC the phone call was pretty much only used to upload viewing and usage data. And it was pretty simple to hack them to connect via the Internet.


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## bengalfreak

inkahauts said:


> You cant set it up and walk away and expect it to record every game of your favorite team, every season, and only the live games, with no pre or post game shows, etc.


That's not what you said, you said they have zero reliability in recording sports. I set up a season pass for the cincinnati reds games on FSN Ohio and it never missed a game once in five years. Granted I did get the pregame show also, but that wasn't part of your original statement. Tivos have great reliability in recording sporting events. The recordings just aren't as targeted as you would like.


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## tonyd79

"bengalfreak" said:


> That's not what you said, you said they have zero reliability in recording sports. I set up a season pass for the cincinnati reds games on FSN Ohio and it never missed a game once in five years. Granted I did get the pregame show also, but that wasn't part of your original statement. Tivos have great reliability in recording sporting events. The recordings just aren't as targeted as you would like.


If you recorded FSN Ohio 24 hours a day it would be reliable too.


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## inkahauts

"bengalfreak" said:


> That's not what you said, you said they have zero reliability in recording sports. I set up a season pass for the cincinnati reds games on FSN Ohio and it never missed a game once in five years. Granted I did get the pregame show also, but that wasn't part of your original statement. Tivos have great reliability in recording sporting events. The recordings just aren't as targeted as you would like.


Tried that with lakers, clippers etc, and it never caught all the games, and would catch non games. Heck, it recorded random Spanish channel programs that had nothing to do with sports even! I tried it with wish lists, and it was even worse. I have never had a problem with a hr. So yes, that is exactly what I said, they have zero reliability for recording sports, without baby sitting it. There is a difference between being able to find a way to make it work, and not understanding how it works. Many People who baby sit the hrs generally do it because they don't underhand how it works,or refuse to let it do it's thing and program it right. That's not the case with tivos and sports, it just doesn't have a way to do it properly. My replaytv and my ultimate tv never had these issues that tivo had with sports either. So don't think I am just bagging on TiVo because i like the hrs better. It's ever other dvr I have had was better at it. It's possible that some of this had to do with guide data in your market vs mine, but even then, none of my other dvrs had these problems that TiVo did have. I stand by what I said.


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## Maruuk

My Tivos always recorded sports perfectly to the schedule, never an issue. My HR's have occasionally just decided not to record a sports show (or other show), without any explanation. It just doesn't feel like it. Even though the red dot was on it, sometimes the X goes over it in the "To Do" list even when there weren't competing shows. So I've learned to hover, and physically check on the actual startups on all critical games when I can. Or sometimes they won't be there when I get back.


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## I WANT MORE

I have not had any issues with my Tivos or D* receivers missing recordings. They are equally reliable on that front.


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## inkahauts

"Maruuk" said:


> My Tivos always recorded sports perfectly to the schedule, never an issue. My HR's have occasionally just decided not to record a sports show (or other show), without any explanation. It just doesn't feel like it. Even though the red dot was on it, sometimes the X goes over it in the "To Do" list even when there weren't competing shows. So I've learned to hover, and physically check on the actual startups on all critical games when I can. Or sometimes they won't be there when I get back.


How did you set up your recordings o a TiVo? By series or by wish list?

And how do you set them up on your Directv hr?


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## Shades228

Q1 2012 anticipation thread here we come.


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