# Suggestions wanted for Dolby Atmos "in ceiling" speakers



## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

Hello folks....

My surround sound system is up and running with mostly all klips speakers. It sounds great. But my system can still take two dolby atmos speakers. I have a ceiling which has about 10 inches of space above it before it hits the wood. So my speakers can be at the most, 10 inches tall. I want "in ceiling" speakers with white girls if I can get them as my ceiling is white. I can always paint the grills if they are not white I guess.

I am looking for suggestions. At one time I saw "in ceiling" dolby Atmos speakers advertised. But looking lately on Amazon, I just see "in ceiling" speakers. They do not say Dolby Atmos. 

So, nothing special about speakers to make them dolby atmos? Just buy a good set of "in ceiling" speakers?

Can anyone recommend something to me? My surround sound unit is a newer Denon, 7.2 ch, 165 Watt, HEOS unit. It supports 4K, HDR and Dolby Atmos. My klips sub woofer has it's own amp in it and it can shake the entire house if I turn the volume up. I have more then enough volume for the other speakers with no built in amp with the 165 watts from the Denon.

I would like to spend less then $400 if possible for the two speakers.

Any help appreciated.

Thank you.

mraroid


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

perhaps B&W C265-FX ?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Most in-ceiling or in-wall speakers are fairly shallow so clearance shouldn't be an issue. Klipsh's own Pro speakers are less than 7" deep and the "shallow" models are under 2".

I don't have any specific recommendations but mounting depth is almost always included in the speaker specifications.


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

P Smith said:


> perhaps B&W C265-FX ?


Hello P Smith.... They look great!!, but one speaker is over $400. So they are a bit out of my price range. 
mraroid


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

harsh said:


> Most in-ceiling or in-wall speakers are fairly shallow so clearance shouldn't be an issue. Klipsh's own Pro speakers are less than 7" deep and the "shallow" models are under 2".
> 
> I don't have any specific recommendations but mounting depth is almost always included in the speaker specifications.


Thanks for the info Harsh.... So, I am guessing I do not need to buy speakers that specifically say "dolby atmos"? Any good speaker will do?

mraroid


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mraroid said:


> So, I am guessing I do not need to buy speakers that specifically say "dolby atmos"? Any good speaker will do?


Any speaker that performs well across the 80-20,000Hz band (or your range of hearing) should work. There's nothing particularly special otherwise about surround speakers.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

mraroid said:


> I would like to spend less then $400 if possible for the two speakers.


That price range will limit your options but Crutchfield has in-ceiling speakers within your budget.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Monoprice also has a few budget-oriented options but returns aren't going to be as painless as Crutchfield if you don't like what you get.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

harsh said:


> Any speaker that performs well across the 80-20,000Hz band (or your range of hearing) should work. There's nothing particularly special otherwise about surround speakers.


Actually, those speakers what firing from above, better be DA designed - the "dome" sound propagation is different !
Read Dolby PDF !
the PDF


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> Actually, those speakers what firing from above, better be DA designed - the "dome" sound propagation is different !


There's lots of angles discussed but none that I found made any reference to driver dispersion patterns which seems to be what you're talking about.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

harsh said:


> none that I found made any reference to driver dispersion patterns


start from reading Dolby PDF, then check B&W site, Klipsch site, etc


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> start from reading Dolby PDF, then check B&W site, Klipsch site, etc


Too much trouble to prove something I doubt exists. You made the claim so the burden of proof is on you to support it.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

harsh said:


> Too much trouble to prove something I doubt exists. You made the claim so the burden of proof is on you to support it.


He pointed you to it, you check.


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Actually, those speakers what firing from above, better be DA designed - the "dome" sound propagation is different !
> Read Dolby PDF !
> the PDF


 Hello P. Smith...

Thank you _SO MUCH_ for the link to the dolby atmos guide. It is just what I needed. I will go over it in detail this weekend. I was going to ask how far apart I should mount the two in ceiling atmos speakers. But I suspect this info will be in the guide.

I also did not know I needed Dome in ceiling speakers. I will have to look into that as well.

Thank you again!

mraroid


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

Thanks to all that have posted here and helped me figure out my last two speakers for my surround sound system. I did not know in ceiling Dolby Atmos speakers could be so complex. The Dolby Atmos guide from Dolby labs will be quite helpful.

As it has been said that I need "Dome" in ceiling Atmos speakers, I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for two Dome in ceiling speakers? I would like to spend not much more than about $400 for both speakers if I can. My Denon system is 165 Watts if that helps. It will pass HDMI 2.1 and is a 4K unit.

Any suggestions welcomed.

Many thanks,

mraroid


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

studechip said:


> He pointed you to it, you check.


I skimmed it and don't believe that the PDF supports the claim. A link to a PDF is not a proper reference.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

harsh said:


> I skimmed it and don't believe that the PDF supports the claim. A link to a PDF is not a proper reference.


You want a congressional inquiry?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

studechip said:


> You want a congressional inquiry?


No, I just don't think there must be a better answer to questions than having to do considerable background research and data collection.

If it is in the PDF, a page number would go a long way. The word "dome" doesn't appear anywhere in the document. There is mention of a wide dispersion pattern but that's kind of obvious given the proximity to the listeners.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

harsh said:


> Any speaker that performs well





harsh said:


> There is mention of a wide dispersion pattern


So, you are such an "eel", turning upside down in a few moments easy....


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> So, you are such an "eel", turning upside down in a few moments easy....


I haven't changed my recommendation. In the second quote I've noted the part of the PDF that approaches what I guessed you were talking about since your made-up keyword doesn't appear in the text or any other documentation I've found. Any references to "dome" appear limited to discussions of the popular tweeter design.

Dolby only asks that you use a wide dispersion full-range (above 80Hz) speaker from what I can gather. Performant speakers are both full-range and offer wide dispersion.


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

I do very much appreciate all the advice and help to my post. I will look for two speakers as well as the ones pointed out to me. Full range, and above 80 Hz if possible. Sounds good to me. 

I am guessing the Dolby pdf may tell me how far apart the two speakers can be placed? I am guessing it is based on room size and sitting area. I will be home and able to read it in full tomorrow morning.

Thanks again,

mraroid


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mraroid said:


> I am guessing the Dolby pdf may tell me how far apart the two speakers can be placed?


It is all about angles. In that way the recommendations can be offered without having to worry about your particular room geometry (dimensions and ceiling height).

It is okay if the speakers perform well at lower frequencies (most ceiling speakers can't) as that range typically reserved for subwoofers. The 80Hz threshold comes from THX specifications and is typically the default on most AVRs. You can raise the threshold in your AVR if the speakers can't go that low.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

harsh said:


> keyword doesn't appear in the text


Instead of reading document made by Dolby for people like you, you skimmed to search by keywords ...tsk, tsk, tsk ...
It would be beneficial for your knowledge to read what speaker's mfg company invented into DA kind. Read at their sites...


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## jcrhunter (3 mo ago)

In your price range (and even at twice your budget) the easy choice is the RSL C34E MKII <The New C34E MKII Is Now Available!>. They come with paintable white grills, are specifically engineered for Dolby Atmos and will easily fit within your ceiling space. I have four of the MKI version in my home theater and they sound great. While I haven't personally experienced the MKII, they're supposed to be even better and given RSL's reputation I have no reason to doubt them.
I think the C34E MKII is a no-brainer for your setup.


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

Hello J....

Wow! The price is right. How far apart did you place your in ceiling speakers from each other?
I am giving them serious thought!

I appreciate the link. Thank you.

mraroid


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## jcrhunter (3 mo ago)

Glad my recommendation is helpful.

Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers should be the same distance apart as the front floor speaker separation. My screen in 98" wide and the centers of the front speakers are 125" from each other so that's the same distance I used for the C34E speakers. Front/rear separation for the C34E's is 102".


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

jcrhunter said:


> Glad my recommendation is helpful.
> 
> Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers should be the same distance apart as the front floor speaker separation. My screen in 98" wide and the centers of the front speakers are 125" from each other so that's the same distance I used for the C34E speakers. Front/rear separation for the C34E's is 102".


OK. Got it. I have a LG 65 inch OLED TV. If I am only installing two ceiling speakers (My Denon only has two speaker outputs left for Atmos) do you think I should install them directly above my sitting area? I have one very long sofa which can seat four people comfortably, and five in a pinch. No other chars, or siting available. I have two Klips towers as my front left and right hand stereo speakers. Measuring from the side of the klips closest to the TV, the lengtrh between them is just a tad over eight feet. I believe my long sofa is about six and a half feet wide (from memory).

One last question - I like the idea of installing four ceiling speakers. Can I buy or build a device that would let me drive four speakers from my only two atmos speaker output leads on my Denon? Or would that screw something up? Also, would that also reduce the volume from the ceiling speakers? Like most surround sound systems, mine came with a mic which I place at ear level at the center of my sofa. Then the denon adjusts the sound. I have mostly found that the center voice speaker is not loud enough, so I have to manually turn it up. I thought it might be my speaker, so I replaced it with a much larger Klips center voice speaker, but same issue. If I macgyver my set up to support four ceiling speakers, maybe that would screw up the auto sound adjustment that I can do after the mic and denon audio adjust?? 

Thank you again for the help. I went to the Mark II vendors site and liked what I read. I am about 95% sure I am going to buy two of them. I need to sit down and read the Dolby Atmos manual in detail. I have skimmed all of it, but need one more detail read.

best,

mraroid


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

mraroid said:


> I should install them directly above my sitting area?


Following Dolby document... seems to me that would be right position


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

The Dolby recommendations discuss the proper placement in considerable detail. Everything you need (other than a protractor to determine the angles) is in the document. I'd suggest using poster putty or masking tape to attach paper discs to the ceiling where you think you want to put each ceiling speaker and then go to work with Dolby's 5.1.2 diagram(s). Be certain that there isn't a joist (what the ceiling is supported by) where you place the speakers.

Driving two speakers can be done electrically but audio phase cancellation is likely to be a significant problem. Audio wavelengths go from 17mm to 17 meters so some audio frequencies are going to get caught up in the crossfire. If you're going to run 5.1.4, you need an AVR that supports it.


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Following Dolby document... seems to me that would be right position


Always good advice. I need to have a sit down and read...
Thanks
mraroid


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

harsh said:


> The Dolby recommendations discuss the proper placement in considerable detail. Everything you need (other than a protractor to determine the angles) is in the document. I'd suggest using poster putty or masking tape to attach paper discs to the ceiling where you think you want to put each ceiling speaker and then go to work with Dolby's 5.1.2 diagram(s). Be certain that there isn't a joist (what the ceiling is supported by) where you place the speakers.
> 
> Driving two speakers can be done electrically but audio phase cancellation is likely to be a significant problem. Audio wavelengths go from 17mm to 17 meters so some audio frequencies are going to get caught up in the crossfire. If you're going to run 5.1.4, you need an AVR that supports it.


Thanks Harsh... I had not thought about audio phase cancellation. I need to think about that. I am sure glad this forum is here!

mraroid


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mraroid said:


> I need to have a sit down and read...


We're all looking forward to this.


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## jcrhunter (3 mo ago)

mraroid said:


> OK. Got it. I have a LG 65 inch OLED TV. If I am only installing two ceiling speakers (My Denon only has two speaker outputs left for Atmos) do you think I should install them directly above my sitting area? I have one very long sofa which can seat four people comfortably, and five in a pinch. No other chars, or siting available. I have two Klips towers as my front left and right hand stereo speakers. Measuring from the side of the klips closest to the TV, the lengtrh between them is just a tad over eight feet. I believe my long sofa is about six and a half feet wide (from memory).
> 
> One last question - I like the idea of installing four ceiling speakers. Can I buy or build a device that would let me drive four speakers from my only two atmos speaker output leads on my Denon? Or would that screw something up? Also, would that also reduce the volume from the ceiling speakers? Like most surround sound systems, mine came with a mic which I place at ear level at the center of my sofa. Then the denon adjusts the sound. I have mostly found that the center voice speaker is not loud enough, so I have to manually turn it up. I thought it might be my speaker, so I replaced it with a much larger Klips center voice speaker, but same issue. If I macgyver my set up to support four ceiling speakers, maybe that would screw up the auto sound adjustment that I can do after the mic and denon audio adjust??


If you have just two Atmos ceiling speakers they should be directly in line with your front right and left speakers and a little in front of the sofa.

I do not recommend using your receiver's two Atmos speaker outputs to power four speakers. Atmos uses point, directional audio, with a unique feed to each channel. If you spread the left and right height audio over two speakers each, you'll mess up the overhead soundfield. You'd also have to deal with the non-standard impedance of two speakers wired to an output designed for one which could potentially damage your receiver. I'd check the back of your Denon to see what line level outputs it has. Many receivers can decode more channels than they have speaker outputs. You may have four or even six line level atmos ceiling line level outputs. Purchase an additional stereo amplifier for the additional two Atmos speakers and you'll get an accurately reproduced overhead soundfield without straining or damaging your receiver.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jcrhunter said:


> Many receivers can decode more channels than they have speaker outputs. You may have four or even six line level atmos ceiling line level outputs.


Late model Denon 7-channel AVRs don't have pre-outs (other than the subwoofer output). In Denon's recent consumer lines that comes when you get into the 9.2 channel receivers (i.e. AVR-X3000 series and up).


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

jcrhunter said:


> If you have just two Atmos ceiling speakers they should be directly in line with your front right and left speakers and a little in front of the sofa.


OK. Appreciate the good feedback. I will forget about four speakers.

mraroid


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

harsh said:


> Late model Denon 7-channel AVRs don't have pre-outs (other than the subwoofer output). In Denon's recent consumer lines that comes when you get into the 9.2 channel receivers (i.e. AVR-X3000 series and up).


 Hello Harsh... I will find the model number of my Denon. I know it is not 9.2 channels. It is 7 something. In the set up menu, it asks if I have two atmos speakers and I believe it asks if they are in the ceiling or the kind that are on the floor and bounce off the ceiling. From what little I know about Atmos, it seemed to me that ceiling speakers is the only way to go. I have two speaker binding posts left on the Denon for two atmos speakers. I retired from the phone co and know how to fish walls and run wire, and I still have my fish tape! I know which way my ceiling joists run. I already have a plan on how to run the wires for each speaker. 

I decided last night to buy two of the C34E MKII speakers that J suggested (Thanks J!) so I ordered them. I have a room in my basement that I am calling my audio/video room. But I also have construction going on in the basement right now. I am in the process of getting my old furnace replaced, AC added, plus more heating vents installed in the basement. At about the same time, a crew is showing up to replace my main water line from the street to my basement hot water heater. After they all leave, I am going to paint my basement floor with cement paint that is rubberized and made to be walked on. I am going to wait until all the workers leave before the install of the speakers. That will give me time to read the Dolby Atmos pdf in fill. 

My Denon works just fine for me. But after the two ceiling Atmos speakers, I hope I am a happy camper. I would hate to replace it with a Denon 9.2 channel unit if I do not have to. 

Thanks again for your advice.

mraroid


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