# Fatal Tesla crash witness: "hit that corner and immediately burst into flames"



## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

In NTSB investigating Tesla crash, fire that killed 2 Florida teens we have a witness saying:

"I saw the car coming too fast quietly, but I could hear the tire roar," Groshart said. [It] bounced off the first wall, sideswiped it, then hit that corner and immediately burst into flames and moved that way, burning all the way, and it never stopped burning until it was burned up."​I'll be curious about the investigation as I have to wonder what the heck burnt like that. I know electricity is dangerous, but this seems pretty extreme.


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## yosoyellobo (Nov 1, 2006)

The batteries?


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

I have seen gas powered cars light up quickly too. But one would expect that with a liquid fuel, not batteries. Will be interesting what is learned.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

From 2016:
Tesla Model S battery bursts into flames, car "totally destroyed" in 5 minutes


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## dod1450 (Dec 16, 2009)

For those who are carry automobile insurance. You might want to talk to your agent about raising damage to other property amount. If you hit a Tesla your current policy might not cover the cost of a Tesla. Which means you will be using your pocket money to make up the difference. Just passing on what I had heard.


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

Likely depends on the state, and how well the Tesla's insured by its owner. They wouldn't get an extra dime out of most folks I know.

If the Tesla owner doesn't have proper collision coverage on their insurance, no insurance company (or person other than the uncovered or under-covered Tesla owner) would have to pay.

On top of that, the collision coverage might only be required by the finance company, and not by law.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

phrelin said:


> I have to wonder what the heck burnt like that.


fully charged batteries, there are a lot of Lithium, it will burn if exposed to oxygen/air after ripping of batteries


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> fully charged batteries, there are a lot of Lithium, it will burn if exposed to oxygen/air after ripping of batteries


I just checked out lithium, sounds dangerous.

Rich


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Rich said:


> I just checked out lithium, sounds dangerous.
> 
> Rich


Lots of fires from batteries in the last couple of years. May of those things you ride, some cell phones while charging them, etc. They burn very fast and very hot when they catch fire.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

OK, so basically as a long-retired out-of-touch public safety person I'm only now learning that an electric car in an accident is significantly more hazardous for public safety personnel than a gasoline powered vehicle.

In Report: Tesla battery reignited days after fiery crash in Mountain View I learned:

In the memo, [Mountain View Fire Chief Juan] Diaz said the damaged ion-battery remained energized after being doused with water and that the damaged battery presented a risk of electric shock "as many of the cells and high voltage wires were exposed." He also stated that "the short-circuit event that had occurred when the battery's interior was breached in the collision, the battery cells continued to generate heat in a process called "thermal runaway." During a thermal runaway event, temperatures can exceed over 900 degrees Fahrenheit, Diaz said.

On the day of the crash, Tesla engineers dismantled about 25 percent of the battery. About five-and-a-half hours after the crash, the fire department determined the Model X was safe enough to be towed away. Mountain View firefighters escorted the tow truck to the yard, in case the battery re-ignited.

The battery reignited twice in the storage yard within a day of the accident and again six days later on March 29. Two weeks later, in an effort to avoid more fires, the NTSB and Tesla performed a battery draw down to fully de-energize it, Diaz wrote in the memo.​
And from Wikipedia I learned:

Especially prone to thermal runaway are lithium-ion batteries, most markedly in the form of the lithium polymer battery. ...One of the possible solutions is in using safer and less reactive anode (lithium titanates) and cathode (lithium iron phosphate) materials - thereby avoiding the cobalt electrodes in many lithium rechargeable cells - together with non-flammable electrolytes based on ionic liquids.​
So despite the fact that there are relatively few of these vehicles on the road, experience to date indicates that for public safety personnel these vehicles represent very real high voltage and thermal runaway risks in an accident. These risks were predictable and, because of tech industry lobbying here in wildly pro-tech California under the guise of "oh, don't be a Luddite", the risks were not prohibited.

Someone tell me I'm all wrong about this....


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> ... the NTSB and Tesla performed a battery draw down to fully de-energize it, Diaz wrote in the memo.


When the manufacturer and the NTSB get involved after your vehicle has an accident perhaps it is time to find a safer vehicle.

Is Tesla the 21st century Pinto?


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

Don't our cell phones have Lithium-ion batteries. We put them in our pockets and carry them on planes.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Want to see something extremely disturbing? Find some Lithium or Sodium metal, and put it into a container of water. It will literally "burn up" - and the more water (until the water is enough to finish off all the metal) the more reaction you get. 

Now tell me that Teslas are safe with all that Lithium batteries ?


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

NR4P said:


> Don't our cell phones have Lithium-ion batteries. We put them in our pockets and carry them on planes.


Yep
and Power hand tools batteries are Lithium.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

NR4P said:


> Don't our cell phones have Lithium-ion batteries. We put them in our pockets and carry them on planes.


You can Google prior years, but for 2018 we have

Frontier Airlines flight makes emergency landing after smart phone battery catches fire,
Passenger suffers burns after cell phone catches fire on plane, and
Passenger's carry-on catches fire in airplane's overhead bin.
Then there was this one from 2016 What Airlines Are Doing to Keep Overheating Phones From Setting Planes on Fire which explains:

Virgin America, Delta, and Alaska Airlines have introduced fire-containment bags that can withstand temperatures up to 3200 degrees Fahrenheit. The _Guardian_ reports that the bags are made of fire-resistant material and sell for about $1,800 each. Cell phones and laptops can be closed up in the bags, which are sealed by Velcro and zippers.

Delta told the Guardian that adding the bags to planes has been on their to-do list, but that recent Samsung phone explosions sped up their timeline. The airline plans to add the bags to more than 900 planes, starting with the largest planes and those that fly over oceans.​
And finally, back in 2014 we have iPhone catches fire, teen girl burned which lets folks know:

Cell phones of whatever brand do catch fire. iPhones have caught fire on planes, just as Droids have exploded in ears.​
This is why I'm surprised the tech lobby managed to get these cars on the road. I thought California might be immune to the billionaire corporate takeover of regulatory agencies which, while imperfect, protect people. I do agree with James Long:



James Long said:


> Is Tesla the 21st century Pinto?


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

scooper said:


> Want to see something extremely disturbing? Find some Lithium or Sodium metal, and put it into a container of water. It will literally "burn up" - and the more water (until the water is enough to finish off all the metal) the more reaction you get.
> 
> Now tell me that Teslas are safe with all that Lithium batteries ?


Because they are. Sorry but not every accident rips open the entire car. I am not saying they are without risk but all cars are. If a cars gas tank gets ripped open it can easily catch fire too. No different in the moment of the accident imho. Heck oil can catch fire too.

But what made the car lose control in the first place? Sounds like reckless driving?

Almost everyone handles lithium batteries everyday in their cell phones and so on. Lithium batteries are just as safe as gasoline imho.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jimmie57 said:


> Lots of fires from batteries in the last couple of years. May of those things you ride, some cell phones while charging them, etc. They burn very fast and very hot when they catch fire.


Had no idea. Scary, to say the least.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

phrelin said:


> OK, so basically as a long-retired out-of-touch public safety person I'm only now learning that an electric car in an accident is significantly more hazardous for public safety personnel than a gasoline powered vehicle.
> 
> In Report: Tesla battery reignited days after fiery crash in Mountain View I learned:
> 
> ...


You've convinced me.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

NR4P said:


> Don't our cell phones have Lithium-ion batteries. We put them in our pockets and carry them on planes.


This explains, to some extent, why the Samsung phone problem was so serious.

Rich


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> Almost everyone handles lithium batteries everyday in their cell phones and so on. Lithium batteries are just as safe as gasoline imho.


I am not sticking a gas powered device in my pocket (and I rarely pocket my cell phone, preferring to wear a belt clip). "Just as safe as gasoline" does not instill a good feeling.

But with an estimated 63 kg of lithium in a Tesla S class battery pack and an estimated 1g of lithium in the battery pack in my phone the scale is entirely different. Compare a full tank of gas in my car to 1/24 ounce of gas in my pocket. It is a practically negligible amount of gas.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

It may be a tiny amount in the cell phone, but its still very dangerous. Pocket or on a table in home, its dangerous. This is the latest.

Surveillance video shows iPhone exploding, catching fire in store


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## Wolfmanjohn (Aug 9, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> Because they are. Almost everyone handles lithium batteries everyday in their cell phones and so on. Lithium batteries are just as safe as gasoline imho.


Glad someone here has a good sense of humor.


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## AZ. (Mar 27, 2011)

Have an attorney friend, she is representing someone who had a vap blow up in his front pocket....
I guess it was real bad, first the explosion, second the fire....and the burns to crotch, and hand!


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

NR4P said:


> Don't our cell phones have Lithium-ion batteries. We put them in our pockets and carry them on planes.


Along with our laptops and tablets. Hopefully one doesn't catch fire while in the cargo hold.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AZ. said:


> Have an attorney friend, she is representing someone who had a vap blow up in his front pocket....
> I guess it was real bad, first the explosion, second the fire....and the burns to crotch, and hand!


When cigarette lighters that use butane first came out I won a rather expensive lighter in a poker game. Beautiful lighter, looked like a Zippo and was engraved. I had a Zippo and had developed a habit of flicking the flint wheel when I had the lighter in my front pocket. I did the same thing with the butane lighter and blew a hole in my jeans. Didn't get burned for some reason but wrecked the jeans. I was talking to a girl and when pocket went up in flames she said, "Richie, have you got the hots for me?" Funny now, it wasn't then.

Rich


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Wolfmanjohn said:


> Glad someone here has a good sense of humor.


It's amazing to me that people are more upset about this than the smog cars produce. I say that being someone who grew up with a soar throat from playing outdoors from smog... those where the nastiest soar throats you can have... it may not be nearly as bad today but it's still not good for you. Ever. I'm glad I can actually see the mountains in Los Angeles most the time now. Couldn't in the 70s and 80s. (And that's not even an environmental argument, it's a health one to be clear)

No car is safe if you want to get down to it, Hecht he drivers determine that more than anyone! it's all about degrees of safeness and I've seen not one thing to tell me that Tesla's are any less safe than 90% of the other cars in the road.

And again, this accident is because teenagers where driving recklessly. If they had driven properly, this would have never happened. Just like almost all other accidents.

It will be interesting to see if tesla decides to add some sort of shielding between the cars interior and the batteries to help negate this issue at the time of a crash..


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Rich said:


> When cigarette lighters that use butane first came out I won a rather expensive lighter in a poker game. Beautiful lighter, looked like a Zippo and was engraved. I had a Zippo and had developed a habit of flicking the flint wheel when I had the lighter in my front pocket. I did the same thing with the butane lighter and blew a hole in my jeans. Didn't get burned for some reason but wrecked the jeans. I was talking to a girl and when pocket went up in flames she said, "Richie, have you got the hots for me?" Funny now, it wasn't then.
> 
> Rich


That is funny now... 

People will always defend things as safer if they are more used to them than if they are less used to them. Me included of course, but sometimes, you do need to realize certain things are all inherently dangerous and it's how you take care of them that makes the difference.

People should look at how Paul walker died. That to was from a car that caught fire and it spread faster than they ever had a chance of getting out of that car. A gasoline car. Caused by reckless driving.


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## bnwrx (Dec 29, 2007)

Whats perplexing and sad to me is why a 17 yr old high school student was driving a $75,000 car......


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> That is funny now...
> 
> People will always defend things as safer if they are more used to them than if they are less used to them. Me included of course, but sometimes, you do need to realize certain things are all inherently dangerous and it's how you take care of them that makes the difference.
> 
> People should look at how Paul walker died. That to was from a car that caught fire and it spread faster than they ever had a chance of getting out of that car. A gasoline car. Caused by reckless driving.


When that happened all I could think of was getting somewhere where I could get the jeans off and assess the damage. Nothing. Not one mark on my leg. One of my lucky days. Learned something, it's not good to flick your Bic in your pocket. (Wasn't a Bic but you have to appreciate the alliteration.)

Rich


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

bnwrx said:


> Whats perplexing and sad to me is why a 17 yr old high school student was driving a $75,000 car......


Spoiled. Rich parents.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Spoiled. Rich parents.


Rich enough to have a Tesla. Not rich enough to buy the kids a Subaru.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Rich said:


> When that happened all I could think of was getting somewhere where I could get the jeans off and assess the damage. Nothing. Not one mark on my leg. One of my lucky days. Learned something, it's not good to flick your Bic in your pocket. (Wasn't a Bic but you have to appreciate the alliteration.)
> 
> Rich


One might say you where lucky, but with all the stories and troubles you have with electronics and stuff, I'd say you where unlucky it happened at all... has your luck has always been this way???


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> It's amazing to me that people are more upset about this than the smog cars produce. I say that being someone who grew up with a soar throat from playing outdoors from smog... those where the nastiest soar throats you can have... it may not be nearly as bad today but it's still not good for you. Ever. I'm glad I can actually see the mountains in Los Angeles most the time now. Couldn't in the 70s and 80s. (And that's not even an environmental argument, it's a health one to be clear)
> 
> No car is safe if you want to get down to it, Hecht he drivers determine that more than anyone! it's all about degrees of safeness and I've seen not one thing to tell me that Tesla's are any less safe than 90% of the other cars in the road.
> 
> ...


My concern isn't about electric cars in a generic sense being unsafe. Just as we have a lot of devices with lithium ion batteries that haven't burst into flames, there are plenty of people in my rural area here in environmentally sensitive Mendocino County that safely drive electric cars - just not Tesla's.

Since Tesla is in the home battery business with the Tesla Powerwall I have to think they've thought through the battery safety issue. As James Long noted, is the Tesla the new defective design like the Ford Pinto was? Have they sacrificed safety for some aesthetically appealing design purpose? Or do they just attract bad drivers?


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

James Long said:


> Rich enough to have a Tesla. Not rich enough to buy the kids a Subaru.


Rich (as in wealthy, not _our_ Rich) does not equal smart. Sometimes, it's just the opposite.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> One might say you where lucky, but with all the stories and troubles you have with electronics and stuff, I'd say you where unlucky it happened at all... has your luck has always been this way???


Yup. Nothing new, I've learned to deal with it.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Spoiled. Rich parents.


I've been shopping for cars, $75,000 isn't really that much for a more than decent car these days. Not that I'd spend that much but the cars I really like, like the 2018 Ford Expedition, start at ~ that price. The big question is how the **** did they get so expensive? The prices don't match up with inflation.

Rich


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> It's amazing to me that people are more upset about this than the smog cars produce.


They are different topics. People have become accustomed to automobile exhaust and we (society) have worked to reduce emissions and control emissions as much as practical. You did not need to wait for the introduction of Teslas and other electric cars to see an improvement in the smog levels in California.

We (society) have also learned that electric vehicles are smog shifting. Where does the electricity come from? Some generating station that causes its own ecological problems? A coal plant polluting somewhere else? A hydroelectric plant interfering with natural water flow? Windmills disrupting the atmosphere? Solar panels that end up being pollutants? Is there any way to transfer energy that does not, in some way, affect the environment? Hell no!

The problem with lithium batteries is when they are not operated within their manufacturer's specification. I have one in front of me that is labeled "Do not incinerate, Do not disassemble, Do not expose to high temp (113 F 45 C). Do not dispose of in fire". Lithium batteries seem to have issues when someone violates these rules (including damaging batteries). Look at a list of lithium fires and you'll see that there is a root cause separate than the presence of lithium.

But there is a conflict. One has a battery with all these rules to prevent it from having a catastrophic failure. Then Tesla sticks that battery in a vehicle that is likely to be in an accident. A small fire becomes a huge fire. That isn't good.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Nick said:


> Rich (as in wealthy, not _our_ Rich) does not equal smart. Sometimes, it's just the opposite.


Can't imagine spending that much money on a car but...my God that's a lot of money for a car. Recently I've had a new Acadia as a loaner. The new Acadias are a lot smaller than my 2015. I was uncomfortable in that loaner. I tried a new Ford Explorer the other day. I drove one before we bought the Acadia. Liked it but I was lied to and bought the Acadia. The new Explorers are smaller just like the Acadia. I felt cramped in the cabin. Then I was led to an Expedition. What comfort! Plenty of room in the cabin, felt like I was in my Acadia. And it's only ~$75,000! Golly gee whiz! Make big cars smaller and jack up the prices on bigger cars. I guess that's the plan. Stuff the cabin with distracting electronics and leave little room to sit. Wonderful. I hope my Acadia lasts a long time.

Rich


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

James Long said:


> Windmills disrupting the atmosphere? Solar panels that end up being pollutants?


Really ? Or you've been sarcastic ?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> Really ? Or you've been sarcastic ?


Really.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Rich said:


> Can't imagine spending that much money on a car but...my God that's a lot of money for a car. Recently I've had a new Acadia as a loaner. The new Acadias are a lot smaller than my 2015. I was uncomfortable in that loaner. I tried a new Ford Explorer the other day. I drove one before we bought the Acadia. Liked it but I was lied to and bought the Acadia. The new Explorers are smaller just like the Acadia. I felt cramped in the cabin. Then I was led to an Expedition. What comfort! Plenty of room in the cabin, felt like I was in my Acadia. And it's only ~$75,000! Golly gee whiz! Make big cars smaller and jack up the prices on bigger cars. I guess that's the plan. Stuff the cabin with distracting electronics and leave little room to sit. Wonderful. I hope my Acadia lasts a long time.
> 
> Rich


Ford has already announced that they are going to quit the Fusion and the Taurus in favor of SUV and PU types.
Keeping the Mustang and 1 tiny car / SUV.

GM is supposedly talking about that also.

Look at the discounts they offer on TV a lot of the time. How can they do that ? They can because they are way overpriced.

My 2012 Kia Forte was $19,000 drive out. They are close to that still with discounts of course.

$30,000 drive out would be my max I would pay.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

If they do that - what are they going to sell when gas goes back to $5/ gallon again ?


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

scooper said:


> If they do that - what are they going to sell when gas goes back to $5/ gallon again ?


They will adapt with the demand
or
all the foreign car makers will control the "car sales".


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm on my third Subaru Forester. Easy to get in and out of. Great visibility. High rating for Seniors from Consumer Reports.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

[one step further from the topic]
I wouldn't take the Subaru Forester instead of Honda CR-V !


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> [one step further from the topic]
> I wouldn't take the Subaru Forester instead of Honda CR-V !


Built by a company that discriminates against tall folks. (Honda, I mean.)

Rich


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