# Am I Irrational?? About to cancel.



## bshady (Jan 11, 2009)

So, I had a Hopper system installed a week or two ago and it has worked well for the most part besides it taking the tech 7 hours to install 2 receivers at a pre wired house that already had a current dish up there. It has lost signal a few times with no bad weather to explain it and we have the occasional audio drop out but nothing that pissed me off too bad.
I got home today around 5, turned the TV on and it was searching for signal, running through the sats and transponders. I figured the power went out, looked at the stove, nope power didn't go out. I let it do that for about an hour with no progress, still at 0 of 5. So I reset it and let it sit for about an hour twice with the same results. I checked dish and wiring all looked as they did after installation. Then I called the tech that installed it on his cell. I figured he may be interested in not getting a rework. Nope, he said to call the 800 number.
So I called, did all the troubleshooting with them, and I have absolutely no signal. They said they would send a tech for free under the 60 day installation warranty. Then they said they couldn't get one here for five days. This is when I got pissed. In justification, I live in a city with 3 installation companies and roughly 95,000 people, half of which live on a college campus and a military base who are exclusively cable and don't have satellite. I drive past one of the companies everyday and there are always 10+ vans parked out there at any given time. 
I think 5 days, through a weekend is an unacceptable time to wait for a customer who is paying to have a service that has never worked completely smooth since it was installed and is now totally inoperable. So, I am about to do what any smart consumer would do who isn't happy with a service, cancel. I just got finished locking my credit card so it will not accept any charges and I am about to call and cancel. I am sure they will send me a bill for the ETF that I won't pay, and when they hit my credit I will have the BBB and my attorney deal with it. I really do like dish and am sad to leave, they have several more channels than DTV. But, when I had a hardware issue with DTV they had someone there within 24 hrs. If the DIRT team can help I welcome it and any advice. My main goal here was to make sure my expectations are not too high. Sorry I rambled so long, I'll shut up now. Thanks.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm a little confused.

A few weeks ago you were posting about trying to get 2 Hoppers installed for free... and now you've had nothing but problems since your install?

What happened the last few weeks? I don't even remember seeing when you actually got your install.

_Moving to Hopper forum._


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## [email protected] Network (Jul 21, 2011)

I'll be happy to check and see if I am able to send a tech out sooner. Please send me a PM with your phone or account number.


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## bshady (Jan 11, 2009)

That is a funny story. When I ordered, everything went fine until it came time to give them my CC number. I got everything for free besides the second Hopper which was $50 and I used a 50 off referral code which in my mind made the second one free. Then, when I had him read it back to me before I gave him my CC the second Hopper was gone. He put me on hold forever and then came back and said 2 Hoppers was not allowed. I told him I knew a couple people locally that had two and many more on DBSTALK that in fact had two Hoppers. He assured me that it was not possible, that it would not work even if they gave me two that they could not work off of 1 dish. I talked to his supervisor who told me I must be mistaken about seeing two Hoppers connected at my next door neighbors house. He told me I could go ahead and order then talk to the "CARE" team about the issue. I did this because I knew I was right, I figured these guys were just untrained on the new technology. So over the next 3 hours I talked to 3 or 4 more people, all who gave the same response, I ended up at the "Executive Resolutions Department." They were the rudest ones. Said they were the end of the line, their boss was the CEO and the final lady I spoke with told me anyone with two Hoppers was a result of a shady installer and they would close those peoples accounts. Again, said I was "mistaken" about 2 Hoppers in one house. She apologized for the original guy that built me an order with 2 Hoppers and offered me 5 off for 6 months which I declined. At this point I was going to cancel the order but my wife wanted a DVR and OSG again so I let it go. 

They came on 3-26. I believe my install took so long because the guy was around 60 years old and appeared to have had almost zero training on the new system. He said he had worked in South Korea for the cable co and had not been with Dish very long. I had to show him how to hook it up, he was trying to run a client line to a Hopper. When he finally got the receivers to activate it was sign here, initial here, and he left. He said everything was good to go. But, he didn't hook up the Ethernet, the Hopper is about 1.5 inches from my router, and I had even gave him the cables because the boxes didn't come with any. I had to program the remotes myself as well and hook up the Sling Adapter. To be clear though, none of this really bothered me at the time (11:20pm) I was just glad he was gone and I could go to bed. I am semi tech savvy and it was really no big deal to do all this myself. 

As for the last few weeks, like I said I've had a few signal loss issues, only for a second or two, but more audio dropouts than anything. But, way less than I had with DTV, their audio issues are why I left. To be honest I don't watch much TV, my wife hasn't griped about it so I was content until today. Now she is all pissed, so I am pissed. She calmed down a little when she realized we could still view the DVR contents, but when I tell her they aren't going to fix it until Tuesday or Wednesday, she is going to box these receivers up and send them back herself. 

So, besides them calling me a liar in the beginning and the installer wasting 7 hours of my life, I was happy with Dish until today. I would actually prefer it over D, especially after they get Smithsonian out of test and back on my screen. Damn it, I rambled again, sorry. Thanks for the input, I will PM Raymond and see if he can help.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'm a little lost ... what did you end up with? One Hopper and one Joey? Two Hoppers and no Joeys?

You say your house is pre-wired with a current dish. What kind of dish? Did your installer inspect the dish and check the aim on the dish or just take it for granted that it worked? And for that matter, the pre-wired cable is RG-6 ... how old?

Can you describe your connections? Two or three cables from the dish to the node - solo node (two inputs, two outputs - one host, one client) or duo node (three inputs, four outputs - two host, one client). Is there anything connected between the node and the dish? Is there anything connected between the node and the receivers (taps, splitters, diplexers, separators)? Are there any unterminated outputs on the node or any splitter/tap?

I assume your troubleshooting including unplugging your Hopper (both of them at the same time if you got two) to let the entire system cold start.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Why would you sign for an installation that was half a$$ to begin with? I would have sent him on his way long before 11PM and resumed the process the next day requesting a competent installer to complete the work. Your signal loss issue could very well be from the less than stellar install. 

You appear to be a patient enough person to have waded through an order placement process like none I have ever experienced with Dish in 14 years followed by an installation from down under and now you would prefer to risk your credit over the whole thing? 

If you did in fact get 2 hopper's installed for $0 or even 1 Hopper installed for free with no Joey's then you have already accomplished the impossible.


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## Inkosaurus (Jul 29, 2011)

> I just got finished locking my credit card so it will not accept any charges and I am about to call and cancel. I am sure they will send me a bill for the ETF that I won't pay, and when they hit my credit I will have the BBB and my attorney deal with


I lol'd, you do realize that your in the wrong in that scenario right? All thats going to happen is your credit will take a hit and your lawyer and the BBB will do jack about it.

That said, while a 5 day wait can seem bad to you you do have to bare in mind that just because you see those 3 buildings with Dish vans in your city does not mean that they exclusively service your city, or if they even service it to begin with. 5 days is a bit bad but if there booked, there booked and the best that can be done is a quick email to field office to see if there might be any openings that arent popping up in the scheduler.

Just be glad it isnt one of the more extreme instances like where people have to wait 2+weeks.


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## bshady (Jan 11, 2009)

I ended up with 1 Hopper and 1 Joey for free. The dishes were identical besides color, but I had him put the new one up because I think the new black ones look cool. 2 wires from dish to grounding block, then 2 wires to single node which is too grounded. Then, one wire to Hopper and 1 to Joey. Nothing is between the wires and the receivers besides barrel connectors at the wallplates. As for the prewired cable, I wired 2 coax runs and 1 cat 5E run to every room in the house about 6 months ago. The wire was a brand new box of 1000'. It was DirecTV branded wire that says on the box " ROHS compliant, Swept tested 5-3000MHZ, designed to work on MOCAs" All wire is run to blue barrel connectors mounted in keystone jacks, with Beldon Snap-N-Seal compression fittings. I tried unplugging and RB resetting both receivers several times with no different results. 

Inkosaurs, yes I realize this is ethically wrong, but if I am not receiving a service I am paying for and after my experience with Dish as a whole, I believe they are not holding up their end of the contract. Therefore I have no problem with this course of action. I have no doubt that it may end up on my credit, but I doubt it will stay there long. I bet they would eat the 400 buck ETF before they paid their attorney to come to the armpit of Texas and show up to defend any suit, whether they thought they would win or not. My lawyer is a family member, hence cheap. I'm not an expert. I may lose, but I promise you they would have way more skin in the game than I would. 

Anyway, I am not malicious. After the bumpy start I loved it when it was working. I don't want a war with Dish. I just want my TV to work so my wife will shut up and leave me alone about it. I guess I am just used to DTV being here the next day when I had issues, cable would come out the same day, even if it was after hours. They had guys on call I guess. 

There is a Dish guy that lives next door to a friend. I think I'll go knock on his door tomorrow and see if he wants to make 50 bucks or so. I will let y'all know how it turns out. I appreciate the input guys, have a good night.


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## wtrjock (Feb 9, 2007)

I think it would be best for you to cancel and go back to DTV. I don't believe you will be satisfied with any outcome from Dish. We have all suffered through the bumps and bruises of getting a new product without unrealistic requests. You should always look at situations with the intent of achieving a win win by both parties. It is not Dish's intent to produce a fault product. I have talked to John in the executive offices myself and he was very willing to hear my concerns. If your requests are realistic and portrayed in a prefessional way, they will be resolved in a timely matter.

I have received excellent help from the DIRT members on this site and the other. You should use them as a resources as well, or just give up on Dish and leave. I am not sure that your negative tone is productive on this forum.


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## 356B (Oct 11, 2008)

wtrjock said:


> I think it would be best for you to cancel and go back to DTV. I don't believe you will be satisfied with any outcome from Dish. We have all suffered through the bumps and bruises of getting a new product without unrealistic requests. You should always look at situations with the intent of achieving a win win by both parties. It is not Dish's intent to produce a fault product. I have talked to John in the executive offices myself and he was very willing to hear my concerns. If your requests are realistic and portrayed in a prefessional way, they will be resolved in a timely matter.
> 
> I have received excellent help from the DIRT members on this site and the other. You should use them as a resources as well, or just give up on Dish and leave. I am not sure that your negative tone is productive on this forum.


+1


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## coolman302003 (Jun 2, 2008)

bshady said:


> He put me on hold forever and then came back and said 2 Hoppers was not allowed.


If you wanted to get 2 Hoppers per DISH company policy, you have to get 2 Joeys. 2 Hoppers and 0 Joeys is a configuration NOT allowed even DIRT has stated this before. Now I don't understand 100% if this is what you were trying to do but I am simply stating their policy. 1 Hopper and 0 Joeys is also another configuration NOT allowed although the DISH website had an error and new customers were able to order this configuration online. For every Hopper you must have at least 1 Joey.


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## Hawgster (Feb 22, 2012)

{ figured the power went out, looked at the stove, nope power didn't go out. I let it do that for about an hour with no progress, still at 0 of 5. So I reset it and let it sit for about an hour twice with the same results.}
If you did afactory reset and did not unhook the joeys then it will not work... This much I do know....


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## dunkonu23 (Sep 11, 2006)

Is it just me or is this a classic line?

"I just want my TV to work so my wife will shut up and leave me alone about it."

Scott


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

dunkonu23 said:


> Is it just me or is this a classic line?
> 
> "I just want my TV to work so my wife will shut up and leave me alone about it."
> 
> Scott


:lol:


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## tommiet (Dec 29, 2005)

It's just TV...... If its that important, maybe get Dish, cable and Direct together.


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## 356B (Oct 11, 2008)

coolman302003 said:


> I For every Hopper you must have at least 1 Joey.


Not to labor the point but I and others have had 2 Hoppers and 1 Joey installed, but not for free. From what I have read and experienced it's at least a 100 bucks to play.


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## broeddog (Sep 12, 2009)

I really don't no what the Dish policy is but I had a two Hopper only system installed on 4/2/12. I have no Joey installed and I payed $199.00 for the additional Hopper. I spoke to several supervisors before I finally spoke to someone on the Executive team who was able to complete the order for me. I had a problem with the second Hopper not being able to program correctly and I turned out to be a six month old piece of RG 6 that Directv had installed. The dish installer was stumped and I asked him if he replaced the cable to that TV with the same cable he used to do the install with, he said no. I asked him to pull a test cable from the dual node to that TV and within ten minutes the Hopper loaded up and has been working flawlessly since then. I left Directv because of the inconsistent practices in regards to who qualifies for what equipment and what price it will cost them or whether they get it free or at a discounted rate. I am happy to be a new Dish customer and I hope you are able to get your two Hopper system.


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## bshady (Jan 11, 2009)

Okay, after some basic troubleshooting, running 100' of cable from the node through a window and across the house I have determined that the line that the installer ran is bad. I ran from node to receiver and everything worked, with higher signal strength than I had before. Then, I ran that same line to the barrel connector where the installers line hooked into my prewire that runs to the wall plate at the Hopper. Same result, great signal strength. I left the Joey hooked up to the other side of that dual cable Dish used and disconnected my Ethernet cord so I could see if that side of the dual cable might be bad as well, but it appears to be good. I checked the installers terminations and both ends look good. I'm not sure what the problem is other than to say the wire is just bad. I don't like that dual cable, especially the stuff with the ground wire on it that Dish uses. I have seen that stuff get peeled the wrong way and it just screws up the whole cable.

If there was room in the siding to tuck a 3rd wire I would fix this right now. I guess when Dish comes Wednesday they will have to pull that entire wire and run a new one. I have cable too so I guess until then I will enjoy my 78 SD channels and no DVR. :grin:

I guess because the terminations looked good I will chalk this up to bad luck and not installer error. Oh well, I've had plenty this week. Someone bashed into my wife's car in the parking lot at work and didn't leave a note or anything. I was going to trade that car in next month. Also, water is coming up from a drain line under the slab of my house. Yes, State Farm loves me right now. 

Sorry if I came across as a dick, this week has sucked. I guess I just expected better, quicker service as a new customer with a 2 week old install and the protection plan. Thanks for all the input guys.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

bshady said:


> Sorry if I came across as a dick, this week has sucked. I guess I just expected better, quicker service as a new customer with a 2 week old install and the protection plan. Thanks for all the input guys.


You really have nothing to be sorry for. I posted this on February 3:


phrelin said:


> If Dish releases a new piece of hardware to new customers first, I'll likely just be grinning as I read those new member posts here.
> 
> I have never seen an Echostar significantly different new product release that didn't seem like a Beta, if not Alpha, Release and I cannot believe this one won't work out about the same.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised that there haven't been more problems, frankly. It appears that the firmware/software isn't half as bad as most new releases were in the past. What I'm waiting for now is the other shoe - hardware failures.

Where the Hopper release seems most "Beta-like" is in customer service policies. The most significant deal-breaker is the combination of rules that require only one Hopper and no ViP DVR's on the account. This means every time there's a hardware failure the customer is without TV by order of irrational Dish Command. Apparently some fool thinks the Echostar/Dish Hopper is the first failure-proof electronic device ever manufactured.:sure:

And then there's the mandatory Joey. I have a Slingbox PRO-HD manufactured by Echostar, the same folks who make for Dish the Hopper, as well as all the Sling Adapters. I have used that to eliminate all my extra TV's using instead various configurations of computer devices, all consistent with the basic design and purpose of Sling devices. Having accomplished that with equipment manufactured by a company mostly owned by the same people who own Dish, I have no use for a Joey. But I'm prohibited by the rules from getting a Hopper without a Joey.

I suppose they'll make something that uses the Hopper PTAT technology some day for people who don't have any real use for a multi-room configuration, like all the single people and couples that are a signficant portion of our population.

But IMHO you really have nothing to apologize for. You're frustrated which was a predictable outcome back in February.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

phrelin said:


> Where the Hopper release seems most "Beta-like" is in customer service policies. The most significant deal-breaker is the combination of rules that require only one Hopper and no ViP DVR's on the account.


There are some good reasons for that, though. I believe you have to have a DPP34/44 switch in order to mix the hardware (the need for extra connections) so that adds expense to the installation by Dish that they would like to save.

Also, given how the installers don't seem to get enough training OR don't perform well on new products even with training, Dish is probably smart to reduce the amount of potential screwups that could happen in a mixed hardware environment.



phrelin said:


> This means every time there's a hardware failure the customer is without TV by order of irrational Dish Command.


Well... using your own later-described scenario as an example... you have a single point of failure too don't you? If your ViP receiver fails, then your Slingbox isn't of much use, nor can your remote locations do anything... so you have just created your own old-time version of the Hopper/Joey scenario by having a single ViP receiver + Slingbox, right?

Also, the LNBs and switches are already single points of failure.



phrelin said:


> And then there's the mandatory Joey. I have a Slingbox PRO-HD manufactured by Echostar, the same folks who make for Dish the Hopper, as well as all the Sling Adapters. I have used that to eliminate all my extra TV's using instead various configurations of computer devices, all consistent with the basic design and purpose of Sling devices. Having accomplished that with equipment manufactured by a company mostly owned by the same people who own Dish, I have no use for a Joey. But I'm prohibited by the rules from getting a Hopper without a Joey.


Arguably, though, if you don't have a need for a Joey then what need have you for a Hopper?

A 722K (or a 922 for that matter) has 2 SAT tuners and 2 OTA tuners. The Hopper has 3 SAT tuners and no OTA tuners. The only thing that puts Hopper over the top is the ability to use 1 SAT tuner for 4 SAT local channels during primetime. Outside of primetime, if you have OTA reception, a 722K or 922 might be better suited for you anyway.

It is weird, if Dish wants to proliferate new customers with Hoppers... to not let them just take a Hopper now and add Joeys later... but for existing customers, I kind of get why they wouldn't want you to upgrade unless you need a Joey because you arguably don't need to swap your current ViP receiver for just a Hopper in most situations I expect.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> There are some good reasons for that, though. I believe you have to have a DPP34/44 switch in order to mix the hardware (the need for extra connections) so that adds expense to the installation by Dish that they would like to save.
> 
> Also, given how the installers don't seem to get enough training OR don't perform well on new products even with training, Dish is probably smart to reduce the amount of potential screwups that could happen in a mixed hardware environment.


Sure, that's a valid observation and given the kind of contractor installers I've had in the past, it's way too soon to be installing Hoppers in our area anyway.



> Well... using your own later-described scenario as an example... you have a single point of failure too don't you? If your ViP receiver fails, then your Slingbox isn't of much use, nor can your remote locations do anything... so you have just created your own old-time version of the Hopper/Joey scenario by having a single ViP receiver + Slingbox, right?
> 
> Also, the LNBs and switches are already single points of failure.


Yes, and no. My choices is to have two ViP DVR's so when a box fails I am not without TV. On the other hand, I did have a switch failure once and fully expect to have an LNB or another switch failure at some point. But note that when I had a switch failure before, I bypassed the switch to give me some TV.


> Arguably, though, if you don't have a need for a Joey then what need have you for a Hopper?
> 
> A 722K (or a 922 for that matter) has 2 SAT tuners and 2 OTA tuners. The Hopper has 3 SAT tuners and no OTA tuners. The only thing that puts Hopper over the top is the ability to use 1 SAT tuner for 4 SAT local channels during primetime. Outside of primetime, if you have OTA reception, a 722K or 922 might be better suited for you anyway.


I don't get OTA but do use my 722 and 612 to record more TV than I can watch anyway. So you're right, which is why I said:


> I suppose they'll make something that uses the Hopper PTAT technology some day for people who don't have any real use for a multi-room configuration, like all the single people and couples that are a signficant portion of our population.





> It is weird, if Dish wants to proliferate new customers with Hoppers... to not let them just take a Hopper now and add Joeys later... but for existing customers, I kind of get why they wouldn't want you to upgrade unless you need a Joey because you arguably don't need to swap your current ViP receiver for just a Hopper in most situations I expect.


 I'm fine not being an "early adopter" as my life has enough complications. I can see something in the future similar to a 722 but like the Hopper without built-in OTA and with a third PTAT enabled satellite receiver.


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## 356B (Oct 11, 2008)

I live in rural Mendocino county too and my installers were knowledgeable, diligent, and agreeable to all my request concerning the Hopper/Joey. The install took a little over two hours.

Interestingly enough I watched a commercial last night advertising the Hopper. It made absolutely no mention or reference to the Joey. It advertised the Hopper as free. I wondered about the Joey because Dish has claimed in the past they are required with each Hopper, although that is not necessarily the case. I've seen more then one post claiming just Hoppers and no Joey's and I have two Hoppers and one Joey, early on many were turned down for that same request, or so I have read.

With the addition of PTAT (which I like) and the absence of Sling (I got the SA) the Hopper is much the same as the vip922....just without the weirdness, there are EHD annoyances, nothing major for me though. I'm happy with my system, but I liked the 922 also... many did not.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

phrelin said:


> ...The most significant deal-breaker is the combination of rules that require only one Hopper and no ViP DVR's on the account. This means every time there's a hardware failure the customer is without TV by order of irrational Dish Command. Apparently some fool thinks the Echostar/Dish Hopper is the first failure-proof electronic device ever manufactured.:sure:
> 
> And then there's the mandatory Joey...)


*There is no one Hopper rule*, and there are people getting fewer Joeys than Hoppers on a case by case basis. They are in the receiver business and I doubt that they are interested very much in supporting your other TVs without boxes.


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

Stewart Vernon said:


> There are some good reasons for that, though. I believe you have to have a DPP34/44 switch in order to mix the hardware (the need for extra connections) so that adds expense to the installation by Dish that they would like to save.
> 
> Arguably, though, if you don't have a need for a Joey then what need have you for a Hopper?
> The only thing that puts Hopper over the top is the ability to use 1 SAT tuner for 4 SAT local channels during primetime.


PTAT is a big, big deal.
I would go for one Hopper to sit beside my 722 in my main viewing area to replace a 622 that is there now and keep my two 211s.
NOTE: I already have a DPP44 switch and a couple of DP34 switches. Cabling would be a minor nightmare but no worse than it is now.
I would probably add a Joey to my PC room but wouldn't have to as I have my 722 and 622 both feeding there now. A Joey would make the cabling a bit simpler for that.

But hey, I'm not really complaining. I'm with Phrelin, happily waiting for all the shoes to drop and the new H/J system becomes stable.

PS. If I could get four Hoppers, I'd replace my VIPs.:grin:


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## 356B (Oct 11, 2008)

A friend told me once waiting for "a shoe to drop" is like trying to hold hope and fear in the same hand.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Had mine for two weeks now and would not classify this as a beta test at all. Everything has been running smoothly with 2 hoppers and 3 Joey's. The Ops problem was not with the new hardware it was a cable.


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