# Amazon asks FAA for exemption for drones



## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Several news stories are reporting Amazon has requested an exemption from the FAA rules against the commercial use of drones. This Forbes piece Six Things You Should Know About Amazon's Drones provides a pretty good overview including:



> Current FAA rules restrict commercial use of drones, and Amazon is seeking an exemption from those rules so the company can conduct additional research and development of their Prime Air concept. The company claims to have made rapid developments in its Prime Air program by testing their drones inside their research and development lab in Seattle. Now, the shopping giant wants the ability to safely innovate and to do, in their words "what thousands of hobbyists and manufacturers of model aircraft do every day."
> 
> ...The company has conducted rapid prototyping indoors (where the FAA does not control the airspace), but now they want to transition to testing outdoors. Doing so will allow them to evaluate how the drones will operate in more realistic, non-lab like conditions. However, once the company moves outside they will be subjected to the FAA's burdensome regulations which stifle innovation.
> 
> ...


Right now Amazon the company's Vancouver, B.C. tech operation develops tools and applications for Amazon engineers. Canada is as the article notes "hospitable to drone companies" and Vancouver is 145 miles from Seattle on I-5/99.

So this should be an interesting test of wills - Amazon v FAA


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

Domino's did a fake ad for that concept a few months ago. That was follow by a real story that Amazon was looking at the idea. Guess the idea was given a go.

I hope they restrict them to only flying over roads. I don't care how the birds fly, they're not birds. They are a man made flying object and should be required to fly a flightpath.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

I'm curious about range, payload, programming/control and cost.

I'm sure they're far more expensive than most people could pay, but I'd like to know how to tell them where to go, how to know when they're there and how to get them to return. I can get stuck in here for 10-15 days during flood season and it'd be slicker than snail snot to be able to send one out for the mail.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Drucifer said:


> Domino's did a fake ad for that concept a few months ago. That was follow by a real story that Amazon was looking at the idea. Guess the idea was given a go.
> 
> I hope they restrict them to only flying over roads. I don't care how the birds fly, they're not birds. They are a man made flying object and should be required to fly a flightpath.


airplanes don't fly paths that are over roads. Nor do satellites.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

trh said:


> airplanes don't fly paths that are over roads. Nor do satellites.


Many general aviation VFR private pilots do fly over and along roads and highways. There aren't any FAA rules prohibiting that.

Sent from my SGH-I317 using DBSTalk mobile app


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

SayWhat? said:


> ... I can get stuck in *here* for 10-15 days during flood season and it'd be slicker than snail snot to be able to send one out for the mail.


Where is "here"? Post your location.


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## yosoyellobo (Nov 1, 2006)

Am I the only one who thinks this is a stupid idea? On the other hand if the duck people start shooting them down I might start watching Duck Dynasty.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

I still don't understand the "FAA ban on the commercial use of drones."

I've seen a number of shows on TV where real estate agents hired companies to film their properties from quad-copter remote control devices. And I know of a couple of companies that also film yachts the same way. 

Are the quad copters not considered drones?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

trh said:


> I still don't understand the "FAA ban on the commercial use of drones."
> 
> I've seen a number of shows on TV where real estate agents hired companies to film their properties from quad-copter remote control devices. And I know of a couple of companies that also film yachts the same way.
> 
> Are the quad copters not considered drones?


See the FAA website Fact Sheet:



> *Myth #2: Commercial UAS flights are OK if I'm over private property and stay below 400 feet.*
> 
> *Fact*-The FAA published a Federal Register notice in 2007 that clarified the agency's policy: You may not fly a UAS for commercial purposes by claiming that you're operating according to the Model Aircraft guidelines (below 400 feet, 3 miles from an airport, away from populated areas.) Commercial operations are only authorized on a case-by-case basis. A commercial flight requires a certified aircraft, a licensed pilot and operating approval. To date, only one operation has met these criteria, using Insitu's ScanEagle, and authorization was limited to the Arctic.( http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=73981)
> 
> ...


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

trh said:


> airplanes don't fly paths that are over roads. Nor do satellites.


Airplanes and satellites also don't fly under 1000 feet.


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## yosoyellobo (Nov 1, 2006)

Drucifer said:


> Airplanes and satellites also don't fly under 1000 feet.


Airplanes fly under 1000 feet when they are taking off and landing.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

SayWhat? said:


> I'm curious about *range, payload, programming/control* and cost.
> 
> I'm sure they're far more expensive than most people could pay, but I'd like to know how to tell them where to go,* how to know when they're there and how to get them to return*. I can get stuck in here for 10-15 days during flood season and it'd be slicker than snail snot to be able to send one out for the mail.


GPS. Their flight can be program. They'll have cameras. Range, payload & cost would all be determine by their size. These things can go from bug size to as large as can be built. But I guessing, for Amazon, It would never be larger than a VW bug.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

yosoyellobo said:


> Airplanes fly under 1000 feet when they are taking off and landing.


Which devalue the homes under those flightpaths.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

"Now, the shopping giant wants the ability to safely innovate and to do, in their words “what thousands of hobbyists and manufacturers of model aircraft do every day."

There is the BS line. Thousands of hobbyists are NOT using their model aircraft every day to do what Amazon proposes.

Does Amazon really believe there are thousands of people who fly model aircraft every day? Perhaps a different thousand each day but thousands who make the commitment to fly every day? No.

Does Amazon believe any model aircraft is delivering commercial packages? Sure, there are those who drop "bombs" and other markers to simulate bombing runs (not thousands every day). But commercial size packages? Are thousands of model aircraft owners delivering electronics, clothing, media, etc? No.

The operations that Amazon is working toward is not what model aircraft enthusiasts do. Not on a regular basis. Some may have done a delivery for fun. But not thousands every day.


I would not be surprised if thousands of realtors illegally used camera drones every day to photograph properties for sale. The return on the investment is good ... the price of drones is low enough that a short flight to get a picture that could make a sale is worth the cost. But these flights are not done at long distance. The controller remains close to their aircraft. And the aircraft are not trying to deliver objects of varying weights to people's porches.

I believe the realtor's and other camera flights should be licensed and controlled by the FAA as they would control any other small aircraft. Specific permission granted to specific pilots via a license that could be lost if flight rules are not followed. While I would not push for individual aircraft registration I would push for type acceptance where aircraft used for commercial purposes would need to be pre-approved by the FAA. Regulation is a good way to innovate toward a future we all can live with.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Drucifer said:


> Airplanes and satellites also don't fly under 1000 feet.


In non-congested areas VFR minimum altitude is 500ft above the surface. So VFR flying along roads is allowed, as is flying below 1000 feet above the surface (except in congested areas). There are different rule sets for VFR and IFR flights.

Sent from my SGH-I317 using DBSTalk mobile app


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> I would not be surprised if thousands of realtors illegally used camera drones every day to photograph properties for sale. The return on the investment is good ... the price of drones is low enough that a short flight to get a picture that could make a sale is worth the cost. But these flights are not done at long distance. The controller remains close to their aircraft. And the aircraft are not trying to deliver objects of varying weights to people's porches.
> 
> I believe the realtor's and other camera flights should be licensed and controlled by the FAA as they would control any other small aircraft. Specific permission granted to specific pilots via a license that could be lost if flight rules are not followed. While I would not push for individual aircraft registration I would push for type acceptance where aircraft used for commercial purposes would need to be pre-approved by the FAA. Regulation is a good way to innovate toward a future we all can live with.


Apples and Kumquats.

If the realtor/operator is at the property and maintaining visual control of the device and keeping it below 200' or so, I see no need for licensing or even for the FAA to know about it.

If the realtor/operator is sending the device via GPS to a remote location or a preprogrammed route where it operates autonomously, that's a different matter.

I want to know where the liability is with a package delivery device that malfunctions and drops into traffic causing an accident.

The Big G just got zinged for accidentally collecting data from modems as their camera cars drove through certain areas and have been required to blur images on some maps.

.If a package delivery device has a camera, what happens when it goes over somebody's house and catches them sunbathing?

If it misses and gets hung up in a tree 100' off the ground, how long before it can be retrieved?


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

And how will they protect against hawks, eagles, falcons or other predator birds going after them?


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

We need a nature course here. Those types of birds know what their food looks like. Trees rarely get over 60'. 

And as I stated, these drones with cameras should be restricted. They should only be allowed to fly above roads. With height determine by its direction. This is to avoid head-on drone collisions.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Drucifer said:


> We need a nature course here. Those types of birds know what their food looks like. Trees rarely get over 60'.


A predator bird will attack anything it sees as a threat. I've seen birds chase balls and frisbees.

And I have at least three trees on my property over 60', probably closer to 80'. Pines to 120' aren't uncommon.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

SayWhat? said:


> A predator bird will attack anything it sees as a threat. I've seen birds chase balls and frisbees.
> 
> And I have at least three trees on my property over 60', probably closer to 80'. Pines to 120' aren't uncommon.


And then you have the trees in Phrelin's neighborhood.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Drucifer said:


> Which devalue the homes under those flightpaths.


Really depends on the airport. I live near one and actually like it as we see some cool planes flying over. But I don't live near CVG. The one near me is more General Aviation and corporate jet, as well as special purpose. And I don't think the property value is affected by it.


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## swyman18 (Jan 12, 2009)

SayWhat? said:


> If it misses and gets hung up in a tree 100' off the ground, how long before it can be retrieved?


I'm wondering that too, will it be able to detect and avoid every power line, tree, etc. as it descends toward the destination property?

This will be comical if it happens.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

swyman18 said:


> I'm wondering that too, will it be able to detect and avoid every power line, tree, etc. as it descends toward the destination property?
> 
> This will be comical if it happens.


Yep, there are lots of uTubes flying through a hole in the foliage of a tree -- and these are hobbiest (hobby guys).


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

swyman18 said:


> I'm wondering that too, *will it be able to detect and avoid every power line, tree, etc.* as it descends toward the destination property?
> 
> This will be comical if it happens.


I suspect the Google vehicle self-driving equipment is easily adaptable to drones.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

This will just open the floodgates to whoever uses an excuse to fly drones, maybe even the post office or UPS or Fedex.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

I would assume it's for small to medium size packages, As I don't see large packages flying over our heads !rolling


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

acostapimps said:


> I would assume it's for small to medium size packages, As I don't see large packages flying over our heads !rolling


What? Your do not expect to see a 60" UHD TV delivered by drone?


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

James Long said:


> What? Your do not expect to see a 60" UHD TV delivered by drone?


and to be dropped and break it no thanks :nono2:


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Larcenous dirtbags who formerly swiped smartphones
will now track and steal drones and the items they deliver.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

acostapimps said:


> This will *just open the floodgates* to whoever uses an excuse to fly drones, maybe even the post office or UPS or Fedex.


You must have missed it, but the drone floodgates been open for awhile now. It just now, that the big corporations are dipping in their toes into the newly form pond..


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

Nick said:


> Larcenous dirtbags who formerly swiped smartphones
> will now track and steal drones and the items they deliver.


Hijacking ain't a new crime.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

What I would like see are camera drones for sporting events.Unlike a blimp, they can stay fixed in a position.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Drucifer said:


> Hijacking ain't a new crime.


Stealing (or hijacking) of remotely-controlled licensed aircraft and their cargoes
opens up a huge legal - criminal _and_ civil - can of worms and raises serious
questions of the who, what, when, where, how and why of culpability, responsibility
and liability.

Not to mention issues of the application of overlapping jurisdictions and laws - both
federal and state/local.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

"Take this package to Havana!"


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Drucifer said:


> What I would like see are camera drones for sporting events.Unlike a blimp, they can stay fixed in a position.


They won't be as good as the existing cameras on wire that zip around some stadia (very affected plural of stadiums! Whoo-hooo!) The wired ones can carry more weight, are steadier, and can change direction in a jiff.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

Cargo UAS Set to Deliver


> by COLIN JEFFREY
> 
> With the number of multi-rotor drone concepts competing for a narrow market share, you really need a unique selling point if you want to get your project off the ground. In the case of the developers of the *Cargo Unmanned Air System (UAS)*, their point of difference is to claim a massive 60 kg (132 lb) lift capacity for their proof of concept, with the promise of an eventual production unmanned aerial vehicle that can carry payloads of up to 400 kg (*880 lb*) with automated "sense and avoid" capability.
> 
> [SNIP]


READ MORE


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## yosoyellobo (Nov 1, 2006)

Drucifer said:


> Cargo UAS Set to Deliver
> 
> READ MORE


The people who will not let you bring more than 4oz of liquid on a plane might have a problem with these.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

TSA is a joke. And the FAA is about to become one.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

"...payloads of up to 400 kg (*880 lb*)..."

That's a lot of... what... _ex-plo-sives__?__!_


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Remember, Amazon was talking about five pounds or less.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

And an Amazon employee was flying a drone at the space needle. 

Sent from my Z10 using DBSTalk mobile app


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

Nick said:


> "...payloads of up to 400 kg (*880 lb*)..."
> 
> That's a lot of... what... _ex-plo-sives__?__!_


I'm thinking kitchen appliances. Even a whole mobile kitchen.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

dpeters11 said:


> And an Amazon employee was flying a drone at the space needle.
> 
> Sent from my Z10 using DBSTalk mobile app


I heard it was a hotel guest.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Drucifer said:


> I heard it was a hotel guest.


Right, the Amazon employee was in his hotel room. All indications are it was a personal drone, not anything he was doing with Amazon property.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

I wouldn't want a guest in my hotel doing that. I wonder if he was shown the door as soon as the drone returned to his room.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Better than making meth in the next room.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

It doesn't sound like he really got in trouble. He just promised not to do it again. The Space Needle official twitter account made a joke about it. When I'm in a hotel room, I always assume someone can see through the window and draw the curtains if I don't want someone seeing in.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Drone Carrying Drugs And Phones Crashes Outside South Carolina Prison link: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/drone-carrying-drugs-phones-crashes-south-carolina-prison/story?id=24791025

Last part of article: "Four people were accused last year of trying to fly a drone carrying tobacco and cell phones into a Georgia state prison."


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

trh said:


> Drone Carrying Drugs And Phones Crashes Outside South Carolina Prison link: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/drone-carrying-drugs-phones-crashes-south-carolina-prison/story?id=24791025
> 
> Last part of article: "Four people were accused last year of trying to fly a drone carrying tobacco and cell phones into a Georgia state prison."


Well, there is always a need for pioneers to test a new technology. :sure:


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I think a better idea would be for FedEx / UPS delivery trucks to release the drones / recover them in neighborhoods for recharge / restock rather than building mini warehouses every 10 miles or so.

And then auto driven trucks . . .


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