# My Thoughts on DTiVo vs. HR20



## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

I've spent a little over a week with my HR20 now and, except for two problems (deleting a partial recording, a freeze and reboot during my Steelers game shortly after the first touchdown), it's been working well.

I wrote up my thoughts on the plusses and minuses of this unit over my old DirecTiVo (series 2) and posted them here. I invite your feedback, either here in the forum or on the linked article.

This isn't a flame by any stretch. I've again experienced relatively few problems with the HR20. None of the minuses are severe, and the HR20 has several plusses, too.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Very nice, balanced list.

One thing I like about the HR20 is the ability to set recording defaults like padding.

One thing that would be nice is the ability to keep more than 5 episodes automatically. Increments of 7, 9 and 10 perhaps?

I'm sure I'm forgetting something between the two. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

tibber said:


> Very nice, balanced list.


Thanks. I don't think too many people will read it because I don't go all sensational and declare the HR20 the worst crap ever produced or whatever. 



tibber said:


> One thing I like about the HR20 is the ability to set recording defaults like padding.


I like setting a default, yes, but I never use padding. And I mistakenly set up most of my 20 Series Links with a bad setup, so I had to go back and change them. ;-)



tibber said:


> One thing that would be nice is the ability to keep more than 5 episodes automatically. Increments of 7, 9 and 10 perhaps?


I agree that 10 would be a nice option. But then again, if you care to keep more than five, perhaps the DTV programmers figure that you can manage them yourself (to keep 7 or 12 or truly all).


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

I am with you ! As a third generation D*TV DVR user I am exceptionally disappointed with the features and usability of the new Plus HD DVR. I can only best describe this unit as “another sad cable box DVR” with HD. 

All of the features I had grown to love on my two previous units were gone. (I have both a forty-hour unit and eighty-hour unit ). I can only say that this software package has more problems than Microsoft's Windows 95 even though 95 was an upgrade from 3.11, this DVR is a hoot. As an avid PC user I am certain that when I purchase my first Windows Vista PC there is going to be a similarity between XP and Vista. With this upgrade I feel like I am going from a Windows environment to Linix and having to do so without notice. Not that I prefer either, I just like to know what I am getting prior to opening the box.

Gone is the ability pause one tuner and switch to the other tuner and back. This is a huge deal for multi-sport TV watchers. I love being able to pause one sport switch to the other and bounce back with out missing any exciting minute of action. Yes, I know there is a work around to make this work by recording two channels, it just seem that now my unit crashes every time I pause live video....
The system default is a clumpy category view and no way to set your own preferred main menu. This was part of the reasons that I never previously considered switching to the other dish type network.
The remote control has no likeness of my previous unit, I love turning on the light at night to find out what button is what on this jumbled mess of buttons.
The unit supports a HDMI connection but does not even ship with the cable!
It has some how has just skipped recording two scheduled programs. I have had it for less than a week!
It frequently has a lag between audio and video not only in playback but even in watching live TV! It is like watching a badly dubbed Kung Fu movie.

On top of all this, many of the positives reviews I read mention features of the D*TV Plus HD DVR do not even function. Praising D*TV for adding a non-working USP and Ethernet ports is like praising General Motors for putting a non-working engine in a car and saying with future upgrades it should start...???? I really loved reading the positive review from a user that says that he is excited that upgrades come out each week.... DUDE that is not what you should expect from a software package unless you are a beta tester! I guess we all are now. I really enjoyed the D*TV Client services tech telling me that all the options I was mentioning were not advertised for this unit, even though it is touted as an upgrade to my R10 unit. When I hear upgrade I think “same but improved” not totally different.

Finally; without a doubt my D*TV Plus HD DVR is the worst Christmas present ever! At lease I could get heat out of a lump of coal! Other than providing a HD picture on my TV it does not offer ANYTHING I had expected in an upgraded unit. I would only guess that this package was developed with only the almighty dollar in mind and no concern what-so-ever was paid to what D*TV clients expect or prefer. I only wish I had visited off Google reviews prior to entering into a prepaid two year lease on this unit.

On the positive side, I am terribly excited to see that there is a survey as to what issues need to be addressed on this unit. I only hope that D*TV takes notice and in the future takes this type of action during the product development phase rather than trying to fix the unit post release. Bless you brott for putting this together.


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

DblD_Indy said:


> I am with you!


To be honest, it doesn't appear that you are. I'm fairly neutral on my switch - you do not appear to be neutral.



DblD_Indy said:


> Gone is the ability pause one tuner and switch to the other tuner and back.


Yes, I covered that.



DblD_Indy said:


> The system default is a clumpy category view and no way to set your own preferred main menu.


The default what?



DblD_Indy said:


> The remote control has no likeness of my previous unit, I love turning on the light at night to find out what button is what on this jumbled mess of buttons.


The remote is pretty bad, but it's not nearly as bad as some TV and DVD player remotes. A lot of those remotes are just rows of similarly sized buttons.



DblD_Indy said:


> The unit supports a HDMI connection but does not even ship with the cable!


That's true of lots of equipment. I'm surprised it ships with composite cables, though. It is an HD receiver, after all. Still, for those who want to hook up a secondary audio/video unit (like a DVD recorder), it's nice.

And there's some confusion, too: some think the installer is supposed to provide an HDMI cable.



DblD_Indy said:


> It frequently has a lag between audio and video not only in playback but even in watching live TV! It is like watching a badly dubbed Kung Fu movie.


I had audio lag earlier, but I haven't noticed it lately.



DblD_Indy said:


> On top of all this, many of the positives reviews I read mention features of the D*TV Plus HD DVR do not even function. Praising D*TV for adding a non-working USP and Ethernet ports is like praising General Motors for putting a non-working engine in a car and saying with future upgrades it should start...????


I'd rather have officially recognized ports that will some day offer more functionality than ports that are officially deemed to be "we ain't touchin' 'em!" The DTiVo had USB ports that did nothing, but it was officially known that they NEVER would.

I didn't positively review the HR20, so if you're attempting to shoehorn an HR20 rant into this thread, it's really not welcome.



DblD_Indy said:


> DUDE that is not what you should expect from a software package unless you are a beta tester!


I'd rather have weekly patches and fixes than the Windows version: bi-yearly massive service packs. One of the rules of software development is "release early, release often." Frequent releases show that a product is in active development if nothing else.

Again, this post is not an invitation to post your general rants, and I'm asking as the originator of the thread that you keep them to yourself or post them elsewhere.

Thanks.


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## Dave_S (Jan 7, 2006)

Erik,
I enjoyed your Dtivo to Hr20 comparison blog entry. I think it was fairly neutral and highlighted some of the pluses and minus' of both units. The one click record/two click SL combined with the ability to set the defaults for the SL are some of my favorite features of the Hr20. Hopefully we will continue to see better performance out of the Hr20, and maybe some new enhancements as well.


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

Thanks for addressing my concerns! You are correct you are far more neutral on this switch than me. 

“Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim”. - Elie Wiesel 

Wish you the best!

Hope the Steelers get back on track. It looks like Peyton has started to flame!


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

iacas said:


> I've spent a little over a week with my HR20 now...


Eric,

Welcome to the HR20!

You have most of the differences noted in the _TiVo to HR-20 Survival Guide_ but there are several other good ones.

You did not mention several of these best points about the HR20. In fairness many are not documented in the manual but are in the _UNOFFICIAL HR-20 Tips and Tricks_.

If you take the _Take the Wishlist Survey_ , you will find a world of other ideas to consider.

I think that it is worth mentioning several of the features promised in the manual are missing. These and others are explored in the _HR20 Flaws and Workarounds_.

Again, welcome! :welcome_s

- Craig


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Eric,


It's Erik.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> You did not mention several of these best points about the HR20.


I doubt that. I mentioned what stood out to me. I also left out several nice TiVo features because they weren't noteworthy.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> In fairness many are not documented in the manual but are in the...


I printed out the guide a week and a half ago. I posted what stood out to me as worth mentioning. This post seems to push your guide while offering little else. While I appreciate the guide, constantly pushing it is like bringing the pie to Thanksgiving dinner and constantly asking people how much they liked the pie...



Milominderbinder2 said:


> If you take the take the Wishlist Survey


I took it a week and a half ago as well.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> I think that it is worth mentioning several of the features promised in the manual are missing.


I'm aware of that, yes. Again, thank you for the guide and anything else you've done. The pie was indeed quite tasty. 

If you have some more specific examples, of course, please feel free to elaborate here or on my blog on the features you feel should have been mentioned (on either piece of hardware).


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## Kirkman (Feb 20, 2006)

iacas said:


> I've spent a little over a week with my HR20 now and, except for two problems (deleting a partial recording, a freeze and reboot during my Steelers game shortly after the first touchdown), it's been working well.
> 
> I wrote up my thoughts on the plusses and minuses of this unit over my old DirecTiVo (series 2) and posted them here. I invite your feedback, either here in the forum or on the linked article.
> 
> This isn't a flame by any stretch. I've again experienced relatively few problems with the HR20. None of the minuses are severe, and the HR20 has several plusses, too.


Nice blog, read it all..
Enjoyed your comments, here are my comments...
The Tivo HR1025 did not need a phone line, never did...
The mystery buttons on the HR20 remote are not a mystery and very useful...
Switching Live TV on the TivoHR1025 remote will be missed....I use it often
The Tivo HR1025 does record HD
Auto Native is a major plus for the HR20 with screen stretch..
OTA is major here in NY, there are many sub channels offered...

Thanks again for the listing
I own a HR1020 and it looks like I will have to upgrade mid 2007 when all 
the HD channels come on.


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

“OTA is major here in NY, there are many sub channels offered"

Not only in NYC, in INDY we are missing up to 20 Channels until this feature is enabled. And this is in a little old town. I would be sad to guess what you in NYC and LA are missing until this works.


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## gunner1938 (Aug 26, 2006)

Has Anyone Noticed That Tivo Continues To Lose Money? With All Their Giveaways There Is No Way They Can Continue As A Viable Company. I Don't See How They Can Turn Things Around The Way The Satellite Industry Is Presently Structured. The Best Thing That Could Happen, In My Opinion, Is That Directv Buys Them Out & Uses Their Technology &/or Units To Upgrade The Hr20. 

This Would Solve The Problems Of Both Directv & Tivo. Let's Hope It Happens Sooner Rather Than Later. The Consumers Will Be The Real Winners.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nice first look review.



Kirkman said:


> The Tivo HR1025 did not need a phone line, never did...


Sure does. You *have* to have one to set it up the first time. You also need it to activate any software upgrades. Other then that it's not needed if you can deal with the daily nag screens or setup a PPP connection to do the phone call.



> Switching Live TV on the TivoHR1025 remote will be missed....I use it often


Do you mean a "live tv" button? On the HR20 you can hit the exit button which will take you to live tv from whatever menu screen you are in.


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## 1Indy79 (Oct 3, 2006)

Erik,

A couple of things.....

1.) I thought your comparison was excellent. It was nice to see a neutral comparison of the two boxes.

2.) Why are you so argumentative with Milominderbinder2? All he did was welcome you to the forum and provide links to additional information that you might find interesting. And.....he misspelled your name....big deal. The whole purpose of his post was to welcome you.


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## Marshall (Aug 27, 2003)

One of the things I love about the tivo was its simple to use interface. It was very easy for the family to learn. 

The HR20 may have a lot more features but the interface is not as easy to use as the Tivo. You don't wheter to go "back" or "exit". There is red, green, blue, and yellow. And you can end up going around and around in the menus.


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

Kirkman said:


> The Tivo HR1025 did not need a phone line, never did.


I never had an HR10-250 (or an "HR1025"), so I can't really say.



Kirkman said:


> The mystery buttons on the HR20 remote are not a mystery and very useful.


It remains bad user interface design to have a button do different things in different contexts or at different times.



Kirkman said:


> The Tivo HR1025 does record HD


Again, mine didn't. I can only note my personal transition, and it was from a series 2 DTiVo.



Kirkman said:


> OTA is major here in NY, there are many sub channels offered.


We have no local OTA HD here, so it's unimportant to me.



1Indy79 said:


> 2.) Why are you so argumentative with Milominderbinder2? All he did was welcome you to the forum and provide links to additional information that you might find interesting. And.....he misspelled your name....big deal. The whole purpose of his post was to welcome you.


I don't think I was argumentative, but if it came off that way, I apologize. I'm quite sensitive to clutter and assumptions, particularly when they're wrong. I read his guide a week ago, I took the survey, and I don't need "welcomed."

Still, my response did nothing to clarify the clutter, and again for that I'm sorry. Milo PMed me and we've had a very "un-clutter"ed (very informative) chat there. I did in fact leave out many features of the TiVo and HR20 (and problems), but that's because they're unimportant to me. Things like faulty parental controls, for example - they don't matter to me. Or bookmarking - I've never seen the need to use it. My "review" isn't even really a review - it's just a list of things that stood out to me in my normal use. I realize other features are more or less important to others. My blog entry is certainly no be-all, end-all review, and I hope not to have ever implied as much.

If you have specific feedback, I encourage you to post on my blog in the comments, as that entry will likely end up quite a bit higher in the search engines than this thread. If you have a message you'd like to get out to others considering the DTiVo -> HR20 switch, your best bet to be heard is to post there.

I'll post a link to this thread on the blog, too, but still your best bet to be heard is to post over there.


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## Guindalf (Nov 19, 2005)

Just a minor point I think you missed on the guide (I didn't take the time to read everything, so if I smeeked, I apologize)...

If you highlight the channel name (go to the left in the grid) and hit Info, you can pull a list-type display of forthcoming shows on that channel. It's not instant and, like you, I prefer the list on the TiVo to this, but it IS an alternative to trying to find your way through the grid.

Also, I like being able to jump ahead 12 hours at a time and back using the red and green buttons.


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## wakajawaka (Sep 27, 2006)

Guindalf said:


> Just a minor point I think you missed on the guide (I didn't take the time to read everything, so if I smeeked, I apologize)...
> 
> If you highlight the channel name (go to the left in the grid) and hit Info, you can pull a list-type display of forthcoming shows on that channel. It's not instant and, like you, I prefer the list on the TiVo to this, but it IS an alternative to trying to find your way through the grid.
> 
> Also, I like being able to jump ahead 12 hours at a time and back using the red and green buttons.


I tried going to the left and hit info method to schedule a bunch of christmas shows off ABC family and while I was able to do it, it was painfully slow.


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Guindalf said:


> Just a minor point I think you missed on the guide (I didn't take the time to read everything, so if I smeeked, I apologize)...
> 
> If you highlight the channel name (go to the left in the grid) and hit Info, you can pull a list-type display of forthcoming shows on that channel. It's not instant and, like you, I prefer the list on the TiVo to this, but it IS an alternative to trying to find your way through the grid.
> 
> Also, I like being able to jump ahead 12 hours at a time and back using the red and green buttons.


Yes, but it's another example of the non-inutitive nature of the unit's commands. "Info" on a program tells me about the program. Why would I think "Info" on a channel would give me extended guide data on a single channel sorted by time?

And thank you for the info. All the help I can get navigating through this thing, I'll take.


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

Guindalf said:


> If you highlight the channel name (go to the left in the grid) and hit Info, you can pull a list-type display of forthcoming shows on that channel. It's not instant and, like you, I prefer the list on the TiVo to this, but it IS an alternative to trying to find your way through the grid.


I'm aware of that functionality. It's in no way (to me) a replacement for the List style view.


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## Swartzy (Nov 22, 2006)

gunner1938 said:


> Has Anyone Noticed That Tivo Continues To Lose Money? With All Their Giveaways There Is No Way They Can Continue As A Viable Company. I Don't See How They Can Turn Things Around The Way The Satellite Industry Is Presently Structured. The Best Thing That Could Happen, In My Opinion, Is That Directv Buys Them Out & Uses Their Technology &/or Units To Upgrade The Hr20.
> 
> This Would Solve The Problems Of Both Directv & Tivo. Let's Hope It Happens Sooner Rather Than Later. The Consumers Will Be The Real Winners.


Any particular reason you're capitalizing the first letter of every word? 

The HR20 isn't "upgradeable" using Tivo technology... a whole new box would have to be developed. However... w/ the lack of popularity of cable cards w/ the cable companies... I'm inclined to think the Series 3 Tivo (albiet expensive) won't be particularly popular.

Perhaps I'm wrong about that... but I've often wondered how a true Tivo box works w/ multiple tuners and a cable box for channels not offered via OTA. Would you have to have two cable boxes and set the Tivo up to control each one via an infrared diode?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

iacas said:


> I'm aware of that functionality. It's in no way (to me) a replacement for the List style view.


True. But then the Tivo list style view is a Tivo patent. Thus why you don't see it on any other DVR.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Swartzy said:


> However... w/ the lack of popularity of cable cards w/ the cable companies... I'm inclined to think the Series 3 Tivo (albiet expensive) won't be particularly popular.


It will be hugely popular with the TiVo zealots. It just won't be commercially successful. See also Macintosh.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

harsh said:


> It will be hugely popular with the TiVo zealots. It just won't be commercially successful. See also Macintosh.


Exactly. Everyone I know would not even consider a Tivo series 3 (even if they knew it existed). Given the choice between $800 Series 3 or free cable DVR I wonder which they will choose.


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

harsh said:


> See also Macintosh.


See also "ignorant." I'll leave it at that - I suggest you do so as well.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

iacas said:


> See also "ignorant." I'll leave it at that - I suggest you do so as well.


While I appreciate you backing off from the "clueless dolt" comment, I would ask you in what way you find my comparison "ignorant". The latest market share numbers show the Macintosh market share at about 4.8%. TiVo HD DVR penetration is likely in a similar situation with respect to DVRs offered by program distributors even if you count the HR10.


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

harsh said:


> While I appreciate you backing off from the "clueless dolt" comment, I would ask you in what way you find my comparison "ignorant". The latest market share numbers show the Macintosh market share at about 4.8%. TiVo HD DVR penetration is likely in a similar situation with respect to DVRs offered by program distributors even if you count the HR10.


As I said, "I'll leave it at that." I suggested you do the same. It's both off-topic and silly to debate that topic in this forum.

My comparison remains here.


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## Swartzy (Nov 22, 2006)

Since we're comparing DVR boxes... it seems Tivo's skip back feature (after fast fowarding or rewinding) is patented (or at least that's what I've read on this forum).

Is it really a patent or just an agreement w/ D*? The reason I ask is I know TW HD DVR box has this feature... and I would think if it were a patent infringment for them to do it... Tivo would be all over it.

Earl?


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

Me feel Iacas heart Mac's!


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

DblD_Indy said:


> Me feel Iacas heart Mac's!


Congratulations. Your post was neither on topic NOR grammatically correct.

But since you asked (you didn't), I heart facts.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Swartzy said:


> Since we're comparing DVR boxes... it seems Tivo's skip back feature (after fast fowarding or rewinding) is patented (or at least that's what I've read on this forum).
> 
> Is it really a patent or just an agreement w/ D*? The reason I ask is I know TW HD DVR box has this feature... and I would think if it were a patent infringment for them to do it... Tivo would be all over it.
> 
> Earl?


Yep. I posted about it here. I don't get it either


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Yep. I posted about it here. I don't get it either


I think, if anything, the TiVo patent would revolve around the "smart" nature of its auto-correction. At 2x FF, it might jump back only two seconds. At 8x (or whatever other speeds it had) it might jump back 15 seconds.

Speculation on my part, though. I rarely used the feature and when I did, often found that I must be "faster" than most people - I'd hit "play" as soon as I saw programming, only to get the last 10 seconds of an ad. I tended to stick with the 30-second-skip and the 8-second replay on the TiVo.


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## lpctv (Aug 26, 2006)

iacas said:


> Congratulations. Your post was neither on topic NOR grammatically correct.
> 
> But since you asked (you didn't), I heart facts.


You also heart herding and protecting... 
Sorry couldn't resist. And, before you say it:
:backtotop

Thank you for sharing your perspective.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

iacas said:


> I think, if anything, the TiVo patent would revolve around the "smart" nature of its auto-correction. At 2x FF, it might jump back only two seconds. At 8x (or whatever other speeds it had) it might jump back 15 seconds.
> 
> Speculation on my part, though. I rarely used the feature and when I did, often found that I must be "faster" than most people - I'd hit "play" as soon as I saw programming, only to get the last 10 seconds of an ad. I tended to stick with the 30-second-skip and the 8-second replay on the TiVo.


Here's the patent.


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Here's the patent.


OK, so it's clear after reading that the meat of the patent is "The invention adapts to the user by remembering how much the user corrects after he stops the fast forward or reverse mode."

In other words, it doesn't always go back 8 seconds from where you hit "play" after fast forwarding. It learns.

If other remotes incorporate "autocorrection" without "learning" then they're clear of the patent. IANAL, but that seems about right.

P.S. I never saw or heard of that test video before reading that patent. I wonder if it was ever included on TiVos.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

iacas said:


> OK, so it's clear after reading that the meat of the patent is "The invention adapts to the user by remembering how much the user corrects after he stops the fast forward or reverse mode."
> 
> In other words, it doesn't always go back 8 seconds from where you hit "play" after fast forwarding. It learns.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't think Tivo is actually learning anything. Think about it, what if you have more than one user as I'd say most houses do? Then it would be adopting to different people's reaction time. I believe that they are just doing a set time for each FF/RW speed, so if you are in 2x, it goes back 10 secs and in 3x, it goes back 30 secs (just made up numbers). I basically adapted to it. I knew that I had to wait a split second after seeing the start of the show before hitting pause when coming out of FF because I would always end up too far back in commercials. And it always seemed consistent.

I can't be 100% sure from reading the patent, but I believe that's part three. I don't think they are doing one or two (unless they did the video thing in testing and it never went public).


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

IIRC: early incarnations of the TiVo software, did try to learn your pattern... 

But they dropped it, to the fixed jump, based on FF speed.

When I have read through that patent... they really did cover the basis on that feature.....


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

mtnagel said:


> Well, I don't think Tivo is actually learning anything. Think about it, what if you have more than one user as I'd say most houses do?


That's exactly why you have folks that hate the auto-correction and hate suggestions. It doesn't work in a multi user household. If things work like they do in my house, I always control the remote and autocorrection works fine. Each of the members in our house has their own Tivo so suggestions match everyone's viewing habits.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> IIRC: early incarnations of the TiVo software, did try to learn your pattern...
> 
> But they dropped it, to the fixed jump, based on FF speed.
> 
> When I have read through that patent... they really did cover the basis on that feature.....


So how do you explain two very large corporations with deep pockets getting away with it (Time Warner on their DVR's and Microsoft)?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mtnagel said:


> So how do you explain two very large corporations with deep pockets getting away with it (Time Warner on their DVR's and Microsoft)?


Because a "relatively" small corporation... aka TiVo, Inc... 
hasn't decided to pick a fight with them yet...... or be willing to take the risk of having that patent formally nullified.

Doesn't make TW or MS right.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because a "relatively" small corporation... aka TiVo, Inc...
> hasn't decided to pick a fight with them yet...... or be willing to take the risk of having that patent formally nullified.
> 
> Doesn't make TW or MS right.


I understand that patent holders can choose who go after, but I have a hard time believing that such large corporations (TW/MS) would take the risk. Yeah, they have tons of money, but why risk millions for a feature that doesn't really need to be in a DVR (as evidenced by the HR20)?


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## oenophile (Dec 1, 2006)

The abstract makes it sound even cooler than I thought. Wonder if it really does auto-correct for your corrections?


> An automatic playback overshoot correction system predicts the position in the program material where the user expects to be when the user stops the fast forward or reverse progression of the program material. The invention determines the position where the program material was stopped. The media controller transitions to the new mode that the user selected, starting at the stopped position with an overshoot correction factor added or subtracted from it. The invention adapts to the user by remembering how much the user corrects after he stops the fast forward or reverse mode. Correction factors are calculated using the user's corrections and adjusting the correction factors if the user continues to make corrections. The invention also uses a prediction method to correctly place the user within the program upon transition out of either mode and determines if the speed of the fast forward or reverse modes and then automatically subtracts or adds, respectively, a time multiple to the frame where the transition was detected and positions the user at the correct frame. The time multiple is fine tuned if the user is consistently correcting after the fast forward or rewind mode stops. Another method initially tests the user's reaction time using a test video and asks the user to press the fast forward or reverse button on his control device during the test video and then asks the user to position the video to the place that he expected the system to have been. This time span is then used whenever the user uses the fast forward or reverse modes and is adjusted with a multiple for each speed. A final method allows the user to simply set a sensitivity setting that the system will use as a correction factor and a multiple is subtracted or added to the release frame whenever the user uses the fast forward or reverse modes, respectively.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mtnagel said:


> I understand that patent holders can choose who go after, but I have a hard time believing that such large corporations (TW/MS) would take the risk. Yeah, they have tons of money, but why risk millions for a feature that doesn't really need to be in a DVR (as evidenced by the HR20)?


It is "probable" that their legal teams have reviewed the patents, and deemed that "they" would win, if it ever came to court.

Or they don't care.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It is "probable" that their legal teams have reviewed the patents, and deemed that "they" would win, if it ever came to court.
> 
> Or they don't care.


Argh! Unfortunately I'm stuck (due to NFL ST) with the only company that decided they don't want to infringe on the patent or maybe hasn't had their legal teams review it to see if they could get around it 

I guess I'm getting used to the 30 sec skip with replay, but it's still a ton more clicks, not as fast, and no where near as elegant


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It is "probable" that their legal teams have reviewed the patents, and deemed that "they" would win, if it ever came to court.
> 
> Or they don't care.


Or the TiVo patent is primarily for the auto-correction, and going back a set amount isn't covered by the patent. Prior art exists - I had a VCR player that would rewind a little bit when you were fast forwarding. I know because I had to replace it when I started video capturing off of a VCR (it was a good backup) and got too annoyed by it when trying to fast forward to a certain time frame.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mtnagel said:


> Argh! Unfortunately I'm stuck (due to NFL ST) with the only company that decided they don't want to infringe on the patent or maybe hasn't had their legal teams review it to see if they could get around it
> 
> I guess I'm getting used to the 30 sec skip with replay, but it's still a ton more clicks, not as fast, and no where near as elegant


Well, in the latest agreement between DirecTV and Tivo where they renewed support for a few years, part of the agreement was that DirecTV wouldn't infringe on any Tivo patents or try their hardest not to and in exchange Tivo wouldn't sue them. Just after that agreement Tivo sued Dish Network. Somehow I don't think it was a coincidence.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Just after that agreement Tivo sued Dish Network. Somehow I don't think it was a coincidence.


Actually I think that agreement came out just after TiVo won its suit against E*.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Herdfan said:


> Actually I think that agreement came out just after TiVo won its suit against E*.


Could be, either way basically Tivo and DirecTV agreed to not infringe or sue each other over DVR technology...for now.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> Actually I think that agreement came out just after TiVo won its suit against E*.


No, it was before.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

iacas said:


> It remains bad user interface design to have a button do different things in different contexts or at different times.


At best, this statement is too broad. At worst, just plain wrong.

Let's look at the DTivo's. The down arrow button does down arrow when a down arrow makes sense (navigating thru menus, guides, etc.) but it does a live buffer switch when watching live TV. A down arrow makes no sense in that context so why not use the button for that.

Another example. In the guides on the Tivo's (either one), the channel up/down buttons are page up/down buttons. Those are different actions in different contexts.

I work with many engineering software tools that use the function keys on a PC keyboard to do one-push actions that are context sensitive. Granted, it makes sense to keep buttons the same when that makes sense but not sharing buttons leads to over-buttoning a device.

An example of the latter. The SA8300 I have for Comcast has a button that ONLY does page up/page down. If I am in the guide and do Channel up, the unit exits the guide and changes the channel. Non-intuitive and a waste of buttons on the remote (two buttons that don't do a damned thing in most contexts?).

I don't like the red/blue/green or A/B/C technique either, though. That is just sloppy.


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## iacas (Nov 18, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> At best, this statement is too broad. At worst, just plain wrong.


As a standalone, clearly the statement is broad or wrong. You'll get no argument from me there. I assumed readers were following the discussion of the "colored" buttons that don't even have a listed primary functionality. They're just colored buttons. They do something different all over the place. Sometimes the blue button keeps a recording, sometimes it brings up a mini guide, sometimes it does nothing.

In the case of the "colored" buttons, _perhaps_ the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, but the disadvantage of making the user unsure what a button will do in different contexts is, almost by definition, "bad user interface design."

Users should not be confused or require assistance to know what a button will do. Most people solve this by putting a label or a symbol on the buttons that correspond to what they do.

Again, the advantages may outweigh the disadvantages, but the disadvantages are still there.



tonyd79 said:


> Let's look at the DTivo's. The down arrow button does down arrow when a down arrow makes sense (navigating thru menus, guides, etc.) but it does a live buffer switch when watching live TV. A down arrow makes no sense in that context so why not use the button for that.


Cars used to have suicide doors. Many people liked car doors opening that way. That didn't make it any less a bad idea.

And, I never said the TiVo method wasn't an example of bad user interface design. FWIW, I always used the "Live TV" button to toggle between my two tuners. It was labeled and always easier for my fingers to find quickly than "down" on my TiVo remote(s).



tonyd79 said:


> Another example. In the guides on the Tivo's (either one), the channel up/down buttons are page up/down buttons. Those are different actions in different contexts.


Ah, but the HR20 remote (and my TiVo remote) are both labeled with "Page" on them, making that a primary function. It's a subtle distinction, but it clears up reasonable confusion on the part of the user. A "blue" button doesn't have a label other than "blue," which creates confusion.

Red and green make sense as "bad" and "good" (thumbs) or "stop" and "go" but what does yellow mean? Caution? Yield? How does it sometimes mean "show me the 'To Do' List"? Why is blue sometimes "keep" while green is "tab right? "Tab right" is left of center on the remote!

I don't know that markers like "A" and "B" would have been better, but at least they'd strip away the confusing connotations colors have, not to mention be usable by someone who is color blind.



tonyd79 said:


> I work with many engineering software tools that use the function keys on a PC keyboard to do one-push actions that are context sensitive. Granted, it makes sense to keep buttons the same when that makes sense but not sharing buttons leads to over-buttoning a device.


Perhaps it does. In this case - and remember I was talking only about the colored buttons - they could have kept the same number of buttons but labeled them differently. Or kept the colors but put "A, B, C, and D" on them. The Playstation controller uses triangle, square, x, and circle (which on a DVR would probably not be a good choice). There were better options out there, and DTV went with colors.

Personally I don't think any of the choices above are all that good. And while I welcome the "advanced" user features that are typically hidden behind these buttons, it doesn't mean the implementation couldn't be better.

Fortunately... from what I can tell, none of these "myserious" buttons really do anything destructive. I'll save a rants about the "dash dash" button for another day. Two button presses is not very many. You could accidentally sit on your remote and trigger that!



tonyd79 said:


> I don't like the red/blue/green or A/B/C technique either, though. That is just sloppy.


That's what this whole discussion is about. I think you may have missed that when you opted to quote just one piece of my response.

In the end, you see, we agree.

And bear in mind, my original statement (on my blog) is simply this:



me on my blog said:


> The DirecTV remote, on the other hand, has mysterious red, green, yellow, and blue buttons that do different things in different situations. Deleting is done via menus or a "dash dash" sequence that offers no confirmation. While my quibbles with the DTV remote are admittedly minor, comparison with the peanut makes them plenty obvious.


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