# Serious 802.11n and WHDVR discussion, no DECA talk please



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

I know I'm a new poster, but no offense, when people ask about something and you just say "use DECA" it really doesn't have anything to do with the topic.

I have a setup like this, crude diagram incoming. Hash lines represent the wifi links back to the main unit, unit 2.

1----------------2---------3
|​|​------------------4​
Unit 1 is where the DVR is, and is an Apple Time Capsule. The DVR is connected via gigabit ethernet off of that Time Capsule (802.11n base station). Unit 2, 3, and 4 are all Apple Airport Express (all of these are 802.11n). Unit 2 is creating a wifi network in 802.11n, with b g compatibility and is where the internet comes in. The rest are all "connecting to a wireless network" and basically acting as wireless bridges with the ethernet port dropping out to the DirecTV boxes (all HR23 series, DVR and non DVR boxes). I have set 1, 3, and 4 to all not accept wireless connections, and none of them are set to extend the network.

First, I tried WDS, and wow, WDS is the worst thing ever and I would not reccomend it to ANYONE. I thought WDS just halved bandwidth if you were using a relay to a relay, but nope, it's just plain horrible with each one you add, even with them set up as remotes and 2 set up as the main.

From 3, plugged in with my laptop to the AExpress, I am able to get about 2.5MBps (byte) to my PC connected to unit 1 transferring a 500meg file. That transfer took roughly a minute. Viewing in that room is fine using WHDVR. Downstairs, it works for about a minute, and then I get stuttering but it never totally loses the connection. I have not had a chance to try and test throughput with my laptop down there yet, and have not tried any re-positioning, as I don't have a lot of room to work with. My neighborhood has a fair number of networks broadcasting, so I have tried to find the least busy (and weakest signalled channels from the SSIDs I am picking up) channel to use.

I think if I went to 802.11n native, and used the dual band, my problem would go away. My wife and I have a 3G and 3GS iphone, and neither of those have N. I guess we could do without wifi, but it's kind of annoying. Don't have any real desire to upgrade to new phones yet. I will try it for testing tonight though. Any other tricks or ideas people can offer from your experiences is appreciated. Again, not at all interested in DECA. I am NOT signing a 2year committment extension and paying $149 for DECA like they want me to do. Why would I do that nonsense when all the new models have DECA built in. If I extend for anything, it will be to get 24s or something newer in the future.


----------



## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

honestly don't think you will ever be fully satisfied with wireless if looking for mrv.


----------



## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Tex said:


> Again, not at all interested in DECA. I am NOT signing a 2year committment extension and paying $149 for DECA like they want me to do.


Just an FYI, as long as you have HD receivers that have ethernet ports and are SWiM compatible (aka there are no receivers that need to be replaced) there is no 2 year commitment. And if you call and ask nicely (and are what they consider a 'good' customer) many times they'll cancel the $49 install charge and sometimes discount the $99 DECA charge.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

David MacLeod said:


> honestly don't think you will ever be fully satisfied with wireless if looking for mrv.


Why? It's all data. Unless you have some info that claims otherwise. I hear about prioritizing of packets and all kinds of speculation, but I call BS on that. I work in IT, and support many servers, networks, phone systems, etc. I'm a senior network engineer, and I've worked in telecom as well. I'm not trying to brag or anything, just giving my background. I know that 1) I know a lot about wifi, but not as much as others might 2) no matter how much you know, two heads, or more, is always better than one.

The DECA box is merely a multiplexer that uses part of an unused wavelength to combine that network traffic in with the DirecTV signal, and uses filters to break just it's data out from the rest. If there is any kind of stream prioritization, it would likely happen inside the DirecTV box, because for it to happen within the DECA box, would require it to actually interpret the data, but it has no knowledge of what the box wants, it's just pushing data.

So my point is, the only reason anyone should have problems with wifi for MRV is improperly set up networks. MANY people have improperly set up networks, so I'm with you on that. 802.11n is perfectly capable of sustaining high transfer rates if you minimize noise (not rebroadcasting, etc).


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

I was first told $99 and no comment about a committment, but then when I called back to order the DECA install, I was told $149 and 2 year commit. She said there was "NO way around the 2 year committment, but she could try and see if she could waive the install charge, and then came back and said she couldn't".

It's not like I'm a low dollar customer, 3 HD boxes, 1 of which is a DVR, all HD packages, etc. 2 year commit is a 100% no way in hell deal breaker for me.


----------



## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Tex said:


> I was first told $99 and no comment about a committment, but then when I called back to order the DECA install, I was told $149 and 2 year commit. She said there was "NO way around the 2 year committment, but she could try and see if she could waive the install charge, and then came back and said she couldn't".
> 
> It's not like I'm a low dollar customer, 3 HD boxes, 1 of which is a DVR, all HD packages, etc. 2 year commit is a 100% no way in hell deal breaker for me.


The 2nd CSR you talked to was wrong about the 2 year commitment, as said no receivers need to be replaced, no new commitment. Call and try again, if you get a 2 year answer again, hang up, call back and say cancel to get to customer retention. Up front tell them you don't want to cancel, you want Connected Home/Whole Home DVR but you're getting conflicting info about commitment and costs and see what they can do for you.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

RAD said:


> The 2nd CSR you talked to was wrong about the 2 year commitment, as said no receivers need to be replaced, no new commitment. Call and try again, if you get a 2 year answer again, hang up, call back and say cancel to get to customer retention. Up front tell them you don't want to cancel, you want Connected Home/Whole Home DVR but you're getting conflicting info about commitment and costs and see what they can do for you.


Hmm, ok. She talked to her supervisor, and researched a lot, and seemed knowledgable. I assumed the first person was just clueless. For $99 and nothing else, I'd do it. I have all 23 series, SWiM dish (as I am doing two recordings over one piece of coax). I have called back twice and was told 2 year commit both times after that first person told me nothing about a commitment (did not say one way or the other and seemed clueless).

All of that said, I am still interested in making this work this way both for myself and to help provide info for others that have a reason they have to go this route. I am working fine on the one unit over two wifi links, from 1 to 2, and then 2 to 3. Just that 2 to 4 link isn't quite cutting the mustard to sustain the bandwidth. So, I'm looking for ideas on how to get extra speed, anyone?


----------



## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Prior to DECA, I had a wireless n network perform flawlessly for MRV. I used a Linksys WRT610n dual band router and Linksys WGA600n dual band gaming adapters. I separated the DIRECTV receivers on the 5.8GHz band and left all of the other traffic (be they n/b/g/a) on the 2.4GHz band. I had my router on the main floor of my house, and receivers at the other end of the main floor and in the basement and all were good.

Not sure if that helps you, but I just thought I'd share a setup using wireless that worked great.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

hilmar2k said:


> Prior to DECA, I had a wireless n network perform flawlessly for MRV. I used a Linksys WRT610n dual band router and Linksys WGA600n dual band gaming adapters. I separated the DIRECTV receivers on the 5.8GHz band and left all of the other traffic (be they n/b/g/a) on the 2.4GHz band. I had my router on the main floor of my house, and receivers at the other end of the main floor and in the basement and all were good.
> 
> Not sure if that helps you, but I just thought I'd share a setup using wireless that worked great.


THIS is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Great info man, and a great idea. Now the gears are turning. I can get two networks going, bridged via ethernet perhaps, on diff channels, and don't broadcast the DirecTV network, and make it dual band only. I can then use the other for phones, laptops, visitors, etc. I have an old Airport Extreme I can use for the 802.11g network.

Oh, in case anyone is wondering, I got all those Airport Expresses for $50 each refurb, in case you were wondering about how much this all cost. I replaced the old Extreme I mentioned with one of the AEs, so that needed to be done anyhow. So, I'm really only out $100 so far since I was going to replace the G device regardless of this plan.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tex, more power to you, but it's like trying to force a square peg through a round hole. If you pound on it hard enough it may go through, but it won't look right.

The problem with wireless is that it can be (and is) affected by the surrounding environment. You might be able to get it to work reasonably well (still won't be as good as DECA, BTW), but something may change in your environment - totally unrelated to the DVRs/network gear - and all of a sudden it no longer works to your satisfaction.

Seems like a whole lot of work and expense ($100 to go for unsupported wireless vs. $150 for supported DECA :shrug to work with something that could ultimately be a problem. Oh, and since wireless is affected by environment, what worked for hilmar2k may not work for you. It's possible that in your environment that it will never work to your satisfaction.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Doug Brott said:


> Tex, more power to you, but it's like trying to force a square peg through a round hole. If you pound on it hard enough it may go through, but it won't look right.
> 
> The problem with wireless is that it can be (and is) affected by the surrounding environment. You might be able to get it to work reasonably well (still won't be as good as DECA, BTW), but something may change in your environment - totally unrelated to the DVRs/network gear - and all of a sudden it no longer works to your satisfaction.
> 
> Seems like a whole lot of work and expense ($100 to go for unsupported wireless vs. $150 for supported DECA :shrug to work with something that could ultimately be a problem. Oh, and since wireless is affected by environment, what worked for hilmar2k may not work for you. It's possible that in your environment that it will never work to your satisfaction.


Again, 2 year commit. I will try and call them back and ask them about it. I got these AEs so cheap, I can easily resell them for what I paid, but I'd like to try and get it working first even if I can get them to set me up for DECA without a 2 year commit.

I appreciate analogies as much as the next guy, but the round hole and a square peg analogy doesn't really work. It's all data. I would accept a straw and fire hose analogy though 

I am with you on the interference, but I'd be more concerned with that in an apartment. I am on half an acre, so the strongest network from a neighbor is at around 19% and they go down from there, so they are not providing a tremendous amount of interference. I think the dual band route as someone mentioned having two segmented networks, is the real key here, and will avoid all that interference. Dual band setups for Joe Schmoe are not going to be common at all, and frankly I know my neighbors, and they are not tech savvy enough to even know how to set that up/care. At 5GHZ, I imagine I will have zero problems. Will post more tonight.

I appreciate the input folks.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tex said:


> I appreciate analogies as much as the next guy, but the round hole and a square peg analogy doesn't really work. It's all data. I would accept a straw and fire hose analogy though


Yes, it's all data .. but there is a a quality of service component as well. It's not about the quantity (fire hose) .. it's about the quality (round peg, round hole).


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, it's all data .. but there is a a quality of service component as well. It's not about the quantity (fire hose) .. it's about the quality (round peg, round hole).


Very true. There's an analogy somewhere in here about a leaky pipe or something I think :lol: . Wifi does "leak" a lot of packets due to re-transmission/CRC errors/discarded packets (honestly don't know how wifi handles that, so terminology might not match quite right, but you get the idea).


----------



## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

hilmar2k said:


> Prior to DECA, I had a wireless n network perform flawlessly for MRV. I used a Linksys WRT610n dual band router and Linksys WGA600n dual band gaming adapters. I separated the DIRECTV receivers on the 5.8GHz band and left all of the other traffic (be they n/b/g/a) on the 2.4GHz band. I had my router on the main floor of my house, and receivers at the other end of the main floor and in the basement and all were good.
> 
> Not sure if that helps you, but I just thought I'd share a setup using wireless that worked great.


On the flip side: I had one DVR wired to my router, the other on a WRT610n on the 5ghz band. It worked great, as long as I didn't try to fast forward. That would cause it to drop. This was, I believe, with the client wired and the server wireless. I almost never used MRV from the wireless one, so swapped them around so that I could fast forward from the box I normally watched.


----------



## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Tex said:


> Why? It's all data. Unless you have some info that claims otherwise. I hear about prioritizing of packets and all kinds of speculation, but I call BS on that. I work in IT, and support many servers, networks, phone systems, etc. I'm a senior network engineer, and I've worked in telecom as well. I'm not trying to brag or anything, just giving my background. I know that 1) I know a lot about wifi, but not as much as others might 2) no matter how much you know, two heads, or more, is always better than one.
> 
> The DECA box is merely a multiplexer that uses part of an unused wavelength to combine that network traffic in with the DirecTV signal, and uses filters to break just it's data out from the rest. If there is any kind of stream prioritization, it would likely happen inside the DirecTV box, because for it to happen within the DECA box, would require it to actually interpret the data, but it has no knowledge of what the box wants, it's just pushing data.
> 
> So my point is, the only reason anyone should have problems with wifi for MRV is improperly set up networks. MANY people have improperly set up networks, so I'm with you on that. 802.11n is perfectly capable of sustaining high transfer rates if you minimize noise (not rebroadcasting, etc).


just read here and you will find stories about it being unreliable. it works for some and not for others. the more receivers the more of a hassle it MIGHT be.
cat5 working extremely well for me and I am not a deca fan, but over last 2+ yrs I have come to think wifi is the worst option and a last resort.
will n easily handle 2 streams between same 2 units? possibly it will be fine but after spending money would you not rather be sure?
a lot depends on viewing habits too, amount of streams/receivers in play.
if anyway to run cat5 I would really look at that.

edit: really this is the very situation deca was adopted for. not pushing you to go there per your original request, just a point.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Tex said:


> I work in IT, and support many servers, networks, phone systems, etc. I'm a senior network engineer, and I've worked in telecom as well.


As someone else, that has a major segment of that experience in my background....

Then:
- Wireless is ment and deigned for products, that are mobile.. where wired connections are impractical and not possible.

Wireless will at time = a wired connection, but most of the time is underperforms a hard wired connection.

Would you ever connect a SERVER system to your LAN structure via wireless, when their is an easy WIRED solution available?

Why is this scenerio any different?

My rule of thumb: If the device isn't moving (aka the STB's typically don't move, while being used)...then WIRED is the way to go.

I understand that home owners have gotten into the crux of using wireless solutions, simply because they don't have the ability (or want to take the time) to create a wired connection. I get that.

But the DECA solution is:
- Easily achieved in most residential single-home solutions. Typically cheaper then a wireless solution (but in yoru case, you already have purchased the equipment)
- Is the standard that DIRECTV is driving for their installations, and support for.

Your wireless solution will work, and will probably work at times equal to that of DECA. However, it certainly has a longer list of issues exclusive to it, that DECA doesn't have.

And for the sake of argument: My home network consists of three mechanisms: CAT5e to all rooms (CAT6 was too expensive when I built the house), 4 different access points (2 expand the main SSID, One is a GUEST SSID, and One is a WAP with Mac filtering for Nintendo DS Support), and DECA

All live harmously together on one LAN, with me issuing around 40+ IPs out on a regular basis.


----------



## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

You are correct; it is all data, but with wireless you have a greater potential for lost/dropped packets. Now while working with data from one computers to another or looking up a website that might not be too huge an issue as the requester will wait for that info to be resent (think of a webpage loading slowly), when it comes to streaming video it makes a huge difference. Since you are streaming the video with basically no buffer, if a packet is lost or dropped it will cause the video to stop playing or skip unexpectedly. That makes for a huge annoyance when trying to watch a show.

- Merg


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As someone else, that has a major segment of that experience in my background....
> 
> Then:
> - Wireless is ment and deigned for products, that are mobile.. where wired connections are impractical and not possible.
> ...


Definitely with you on wired for stationary is ideal. Again, I come back to the fact that I was told a two year commitment was required the past two times I have called. I wish I had ethernet throughout, but it's a pretty big house, and construction was completed when we moved in. I've run cables though the attic for a ceiling mounted projector, and had to go through that hassle and drilling. I'm not really looking to do that just for DVR. If I can do WHDVR for $99, I'm in, $149, maybe, but 2 year commit, no way no how. Are you all sure this policy has not changed? And if it varies based on how long you've been with DirecTV? I've only had them about a year, maybe a little less. I am SWM, and all 23 series units, so I know that nothing but DECA adapters is needed, but they SWEAR up and down, talk to supervisors, etc, and keep preaching 2 year commit.

I really think that since I was able to get it working fine in one room, and just barely not meeting the sustained numbers downstairs on unit 4, that using 5ghz dual band, it will work 100%. The throughput people get on dual band is much better from all I have seen. I'll test that tonight, and talk to DirecTV regardless, about the 2 year thing. For $99 I'd just turn around and sell these two Airport Expresses for $50 each and do DECA, but I think this information could be valuable for someone who has to do wifi for whatever reason, so I am going to try a few more config setups to see if I can get it working 100%. Almost all the threads I have found on various forums all end with "Just do DECA", I'd rather this one provide some answers for others.


----------



## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

A 2-year commitment is only required when a leased receiver that is not replacing a defective receiver is activated on an account .

- Merg


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Since you like to tinker, let me offer this.

I also used a wireless N dual band on two HR2xs with MRV only using the 5ghz band very successfully for over a year. Often in tests, no problem with 2 streams in / 2 out and 4 VODs going simultaneously. This was with a Linksys WRT600N running dd-wrt and a WGA600n and about 40' between two bedrooms (office where router is to MBR). Living Room HR2xes are (were) wired from the office router on a small switch).

I changed to SWim/DECA last May when I added a 5th DVR (10 tuners). For all practical purposes, I can't tell the difference in performance. . . it just gives me more things to tinker with!

You didn't list your DVR / Receiver models but with 3 that need DECA units, a fourth for a broadband / router connection and a SWiM LNB kit, a quick check of eBay shows you could probably do all that for ~$150 and a Saturday morning -- cheaper if you have 24s.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tex said:


> I really think that since I was able to get it working fine in one room, and just barely not meeting the sustained numbers downstairs on unit 4, that using 5ghz dual band, it will work 100%. The throughput people get on dual band is much better from all I have seen. I'll test that tonight, and talk to DirecTV regardless, about the 2 year thing. For $99 I'd just turn around and sell these two Airport Expresses for $50 each and do DECA, but I think this information could be valuable for someone who has to do wifi for whatever reason, so I am going to try a few more config setups to see if I can get it working 100%. Almost all the threads I have found on various forums all end with "Just do DECA", I'd rather this one provide some answers for others.


The bottom line with wireless is .. set it up, see if it works. If it does, great. If it doesn't, then it probably won't.

I know one poster here has a wireless solution in place that actually works. He has created a tape outline where his router sits because if it gets out of alignment, it goes from "working great" to "working crappy" and we're talking about a few inch movement of the wireless router. That's the "environment" part and likely due to the actual wavelength of the radio waves.

The reason everyone says "DECA" is because wireless generally costs more than DECA, never outperforms DECA and often performs poorly. In most cases it seems like a no brainer, but I have seen some unique setups in which a wireless solution may be the only solution. In those situations, there has to be some room for accepting a less than satisfactory performance due to other limitations.

You can use wireless .. just don't expect it to be "100%" when compared to DECA. I just won't be, period.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

dennisj00 said:


> Since you like to tinker, let me offer this.
> 
> I also used a wireless N dual band on two HR2xs with MRV only using the 5ghz band very successfully for over a year. Often in tests, no problem with 2 streams in / 2 out and 4 VODs going simultaneously. This was with a Linksys WRT600N running dd-wrt and a WGA600n and about 40' between two bedrooms (office where router is to MBR). Living Room HR2xes are (were) wired from the office router on a small switch).
> 
> ...


I just said 23 series, because I don't know the exact model name off the top of my head, I guess HR23 for the HD units, and whatever the DVR name is for the 23 series for the DVR.


----------



## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Tex said:


> I just said 23 series, because I don't know the exact model name off the top of my head, I guess HR23 for the HD units, and whatever the DVR name is for the 23 series for the DVR.


HD-DVR - HR23
HD Receiver - H23

- Merg


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Doug Brott said:


> ...Seems like a whole lot of work and expense ($100 to go for unsupported wireless vs. $150 for supported DECA :shrug to work with something that could ultimately be a problem...


Since this thread has already gone the DECA route (and you have SWM); check Ebay for DECA dongles. They average $10 each and you can DIY a solution that will work for a fraction of the $100 you already spent. 

I've already upgraded 4 neighbors to DECA (they didn't want to go through D*), and you can install in less than 30 minutes.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

dsw2112 said:


> Since this thread has already gone the DECA route (and you have SWM); check Ebay for DECA dongles. They average $10 each and you can DIY a solution that will work for a fraction of the $100 you already spent.
> 
> I've already upgraded 4 neighbors to DECA (they didn't want to go through D*), and you can install in less than 30 minutes.


Interesting, and even better. I can't really take a day off work for a service tech, and I'd rather do it myself, so this sounds good. One question though, is a power inverter required somewhere for the DECA modules? Never been totally clear on that.

There seems to be two styles, the white boxes with the green label, and the black boxes. Any differences? One newer? One reccomended?


----------



## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Besides the DECA's for your receivers, which don't need a PI, you'd also need to order one extra with the PI to interconnect the DECA network to your ethernet network. 

You'll also need to check to make sure that any splitters being used are the green labeled splitters. You'll also need to check to see if the SWiMLNB is a green label SWiM, if not you'll also need to order a bandstop filter that would go on the line going back to the LNB.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Tex said:


> Interesting, and even better. I can't really take a day off work for a service tech, and I'd rather do it myself, so this sounds good. One question though, is a power inverter required somewhere for the DECA modules? Never been totally clear on that.


Not unless you want a broadband DECA (DECA attached to router for internet connectivity in the cloud.) The receivers will power the DECA's attached to them.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

RAD said:


> ...You'll also need to check to make sure that any splitters being used are the green labeled splitters. You'll also need to check to see if the SWiMLNB is a green label SWiM, if not you'll also need to order a bandstop filter that would go on the line going back to the LNB....


Yep, unless you have a recent install your SWMLNB likely isn't green label. So you'd need to add a BSF and green label splitter if you want to DIY.

Should you live near the Chicago area (I'm guessing not with a name like Tex :lol I'd be happy to give you a BSF (I have a few extra.)

P.S. Too bad you didn't catch me a month ago; I just sold a kit with everything you'd need to a fellow DBSTalker for cheap...


----------



## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Tex said:


> Interesting, and even better. I can't really take a day off work for a service tech, and I'd rather do it myself, so this sounds good. One question though, is a power inverter required somewhere for the DECA modules? Never been totally clear on that.
> 
> There seems to be two styles, the white boxes with the green label, and the black boxes. Any differences? One newer? One reccomended?


No PI is needed for the DECAs that are attached to receivers. For the DECA that is used to bridge the DECA cloud to your home network a PI is required.

As for the difference between the white and black boxes, there is no functional difference. DirecTV is using the white DECAs for connecting to receivers and the black DECA as the Broadband DECA. When I had mine installed, the Broadband DECA was not available to my installer so we just installed another white DECA. The Broadband DECA just looks a little nicer if it is sitting in view.

*Edit:* Apparently I missed all these other posts before mine. 

- Merg


----------



## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

dsw2112 said:


> P.S. Too bad you didn't catch me a month ago; I just sold a kit with everything you'd need to a fellow DBSTalker for cheap...


And delivered them to Wisconsin. :lol: Thanks again.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

scottandregan said:


> And delivered them to Wisconsin. :lol: Thanks again.


----------



## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

Tex said:


> Interesting, and even better. I can't really take a day off work for a service tech, and I'd rather do it myself, so this sounds good. One question though, is a power inverter required somewhere for the DECA modules? Never been totally clear on that.
> 
> There seems to be two styles, the white boxes with the green label, and the black boxes. Any differences? One newer? One reccomended?


I just like doing things myself, I bought a swm16, a new (leased) H24, bought the Decas for the rest of my receivers and had it all installed in a little less than an hour. Spend a few minutes and figure what you need and order it all, it's very simple to do yourself. With all of the info here, it's a no-brainer.

I went from a Cat5 setup to Deca because I have a receiver in my kitchen that would have been a total pain to get a cat5 near. I used wireless a little for DIRECTV2PC but really that was just playing around, no matter what it was never perfect.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

RAD said:


> Besides the DECA's for your receivers, which don't need a PI, you'd also need to order one extra with the PI to interconnect the DECA network to your ethernet network.
> 
> You'll also need to check to make sure that any splitters being used are the green labeled splitters. You'll also need to check to see if the SWiMLNB is a green label SWiM, if not you'll also need to order a bandstop filter that would go on the line going back to the LNB.


My install was done like Dec of last year, or Jan of this year I think. Is there a way to find out what kind of dish I have via the system setup? I ask because my dish is about a mile up, lol. The installers ladder didn't even really reach to the roof all the way. Under system info it says Slimline-3S (SWM). Does that help or is that generic for all SWM dishes? I am also doing dual tuner via one line of coax to my DVR, if that tells you anything about my setup.

So, what is the purpose of the two ethernet ports on my DVR?

Going to try the 5ghz dual band right now and report back on how that goes.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Wow, I knew the range on 5ghz was lower, but the Airport Express unit downstairs, unit 4, can't even see unit 2. My laptop was getting one to two bars down here. I then tried 802.11n only at 2.4ghz. I got 1.9MBps downstairs with that setting. I just tested it at 802.11n b+g compatible, and I get about 1.5-1.6. So, native N at 2.4ghz is better, but still not enough. I don't get why floors are so hard. My living room is pretty open and our entry way is open up to the 2nd floor, so straight shot wise, unit 2 and 4 are not that far apart.

Well, it was worth a shot. If it was only the bedroom unit, it would work fine. I played a whole show when I got home from work and it was 30 minutes and I timed it and went and ate dinner. It finished at exactly 30 minutes, and I didn't hear any hiccups or see any when I peeked in at it a few times.

I guess I'll go the DIY DECA route.


----------



## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Tex said:


> My install was done like Dec of last year, or Jan of this year I think. Is there a way to find out what kind of dish I have via the system setup? I ask because my dish is about a mile up, lol. The installers ladder didn't even really reach to the roof all the way. Under system info it says Slimline-3S (SWM). Does that help or is that generic for all SWM dishes? I am also doing dual tuner via one line of coax to my DVR, if that tells you anything about my setup.
> 
> So, what is the purpose of the two ethernet ports on my DVR?
> 
> Going to try the 5ghz dual band right now and report back on how that goes.


if there is only one line going to the lnb its an swm lnb. it sounds like this is the case.
the ports are needed on hr 20/21/22/23 for mrv as the deca adapter jumps to them.
or in my case I use pure ethernet for mrv.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Press the dash key when in full-screen mode. It should tell you SWiM Connect if you have a SWiM. If you do, then you only need the DECAs for HR20/21/22/23 and H21/23 .. If you have an H24 or HR24, then you don't need a DECA for them - DECA is built in to the 24s and you can run the Coax directly to the box. 

Look from the ground to find the label on the LNB (the feed horn looking back at the dish). If it's white .. you definitely need a band stop filter .. If it's green .. you don't need one. No need to climb up there.

If you can't see the label at all .. Just get a bandstop filter anyway. It will need to go between the splitter (2-way, 4-way or 8-way) and the dish. You will definitely need a green-label splitter, so if the one you have doesn't have a green label, then add that to your parts list and replace the existing one with a new one.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Tex said:


> My install was done like Dec of last year, or Jan of this year I think. Is there a way to find out what kind of dish I have via the system setup? I ask because my dish is about a mile up, lol. The installers ladder didn't even really reach to the roof all the way. Under system info it says Slimline-3S (SWM). Does that help or is that generic for all SWM dishes? I am also doing dual tuner via one line of coax to my DVR, if that tells you anything about my setup.
> 
> So, what is the purpose of the two ethernet ports on my DVR?
> 
> Going to try the 5ghz dual band right now and report back on how that goes.


That will help tell what the dish is, but not whether it's a green label. If it's difficult to get to, and you decide to go the DECA DIY route, then place a BSF on the line; it won't hurt anything.

The 2nd ethernet port was originally designed to feed another device, but never worked effectively for the purpose


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Doug Brott said:


> Press the dash key when in full-screen mode. It should tell you SWiM Connect if you have a SWiM. If you do, then you only need the DECAs for HR20/21/22/23 and H21/23 .. If you have an H24 or HR24, then you don't need a DECA for them - DECA is built in to the 24s and you can run the Coax directly to the box.
> 
> Look from the ground to find the label on the LNB (the feed horn looking back at the dish). If it's white .. you definitely need a band stop filter .. If it's green .. you don't need one. No need to climb up there.
> 
> If you can't see the label at all .. Just get a bandstop filter anyway. It will need to go between the splitter (2-way, 4-way or 8-way) and the dish. You will definitely need a green-label splitter, so if the one you have doesn't have a green label, then add that to your parts list and replace the existing one with a new one.


I pressed dash and it says SWiM connected.

I have a single line coming from the dish. I'm reusing the old Time Warner distro box, so the only splitter would be there. I'll go check it out.



dsw2112 said:


> That will help tell what the dish is, but not whether it's a green label. If it's difficult to get to, and you decide to go the DECA DIY route, then place a BSF on the line; it won't hurt anything.
> 
> The 2nd ethernet port was originally designed to feed another device, but never worked effectively for the purpose


I found that out about the second ethernet port, it's a shame. What happens if I don't put a BSF on? Can it cause any harm or will it just not work?

I saw someone link a diagram of a DECA setup including bridging it via a DECA to your home network but I was busy and didn't look at it. I'm still not clear at all on this, so if someone has that diagram, and can link me to it I'd appreciate it. Or if you can explain how it gets hooked up, that's fine. Does it basically just work like it does for the MRV, but in reverse? Breaks your home ethernet into coax and inserts that into the DECA network? And you all say it needs power, does that mean it needs one of the black DECA units, as the white ones don't have a power adapter, right?

Thanks guys. Hopefully my neighbors don't think I'm robbing the place outside with my flashlight here as I go check that splitter.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Tex said:


> I found that out about the second ethernet port, it's a shame. What happens if I don't put a BSF on? Can it cause any harm or will it just not work?


DECA is RF and can "hit" unprotected electronics pretty hard. I've read about some who don't use it on their older SWM dishes (non-green label); I wouldn't recommend it...


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Tex said:


> ...Breaks your home ethernet into coax and inserts that into the DECA network? And you all say it needs power, does that mean it needs one of the black DECA units, as the white ones don't have a power adapter, right?...


A DECA "converts" ethernet to RF and "piggybacks" the signal on your D* coax. It's just a diplexor for ethernet. The black DECA is just the prettier broadband DECA, and is strictly used for a router connection (introduces the internet connectivity into the DECA cloud.) The white DECA are designed to be powered by a receiver (D* receivers output DC which, coupled with a tone, is what powered/switched legacy LNB's and multiswitches.) The white DECA can be used as a broadband DECA with one of the little power supplies (power supply takes the place of the receiver.) Make sense?

White DECA P/S: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...ECTV-DECA-Power-Supply-(PS18DER0)&c=Satellite Components&sku=874409002374


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Hmm, ok, BSF it is I guess, but for some reason I feel like I don't need it, but I can't remember why (been too long since my install).

As for the splitter, it has a white label on the front. On the back it says SWS4WB-WNC as the model. It's a 4 way splitter, and it says something about power pass from swim on one end.

So if that splitter is no good, I'd need 4 DECAs, one power adapter, one green label splitter, and a BSF. Right?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Tex said:


> Hmm, ok, BSF it is I guess, but for some reason I feel like I don't need it, but I can't remember why (been too long since my install).
> 
> As for the splitter, it has a white label on the front. On the back it says SWS4WB-WNC as the model. It's a 4 way splitter, and it says something about power pass from swim on one end.
> 
> So if that splitter is no good, I'd need 4 DECAs, one power adapter, one green label splitter, and a BSF. Right?


I guess I can now talk about DECA. :lol:

It doesn't hurt to use a "extra" bandstop filter, because the DECA signal is about 30 dB higher than what comes out of the SWiM for the SAT signals. This can swamp either a tuner or affect the SWiM's output. Basically this "could" cause distortion.
The Green labeled splitters have been modified to pass the DECA signal between outputs with MUCH less loss than the splitter you have now.


----------



## boingolover (Jun 30, 2009)

Tex, have you considering running cat 5 / 6? Is this doable in your home at all? It's not usually very fun, but there are side benefits to having the network cable ran besides just WHDVR (i.e., BD players that want to stream netflix, upnp streaming media servers etc). Much of this stuff will have the same issues that WHDVR can have over WIFI, and DECA is only 100BT (and aggregate bandwidth is only 175mbps from what I've read), so you'd probably be better off in the long run doing cat 6 to each room and doing a centralized gigabit switch. It would probably be a lot cheaper to boot. The down side is, well, you'd have to run the cable.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> I guess I can now talk about DECA. :lol:
> 
> It doesn't hurt to use a "extra" bandstop filter, because the DECA signal is about 30 dB higher than what comes out of the SWiM for the SAT signals. This can swamp either a tuner or affect the SWiM's output. Basically this "could" cause distortion.
> The Green labeled splitters have been modified to pass the DECA signal between outputs with MUCH less loss than the splitter you have now.


Does it just have a tighter range, or looser range of blocked frequencies than the one I have?

I just ordered this, seems like a steal at $60 with shipping:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320608957166

It's a shame it didn't include a splitter. I am going to order one now I guess.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Tex said:


> Does it just have a tighter range, or looser range of blocked frequencies than the one I have?
> 
> I just ordered this, seems like a steal at $60 with shipping:
> 
> ...


The frequency range is just different than what you have (DECA is 500-600Mhz if I remember right.) The BSF blocks that range from passing while allowing everything else.

Use the smallest splitter you need (i.e. don't use an 8-way if you only need 4 ports.)


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Ok, should be the last question. I see like 4 models of green label 4 port SWM splitters. Is one better than the others?

MSPLIT4R1-03 good?

There are like 3 models that all look identical minus the model.

This one specifically says MRV, but it appears to be a "lower" model number.

MSPLIT4R0-01

http://www.2000networks.com/DirecTV-4-Way-Splitter-SWM-DECA-MRV-p/dirmrvsplitter4.htm


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Well, I got the R1-03 model, because the guy selling it on Ebay had better feedback and ships same/next day. I found another site that said it's MRV compatible. I can't see the diff between the two models, so hopefully they are the same.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Tex said:


> Well, I got the R1-03 model, because the guy selling it on Ebay had better feedback and ships same/next day. I found another site that said it's MRV compatible. I can't see the diff between the two models, so hopefully they are the same.


Yeah, that splitter will be fine. Maybe you should change the title of the thread after this outcome :lol:

Let us know how it goes.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Tex said:


> Does it just have a tighter range, or looser range of blocked frequencies than the one I have?
> 
> I just ordered this, seems like a steal at $60 with shipping:
> 
> ...


http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...itter-(2-2150-MHz)&c=Satellite Splitters&sku=

These splitters have a resistor network/circuit for the 525-575 MHz DECA signal to pass between outputs, but other than this [important] change, they're the same as the white ones.
The filters block 475-625 MHz to keep the DECA signal from interfering with the SWiM, or receivers that don't have a DECA.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.as...itter-(2-2150-MHz)&c=Satellite Splitters&sku=
> 
> These splitters have a resistor network/circuit for the 525-575 MHz DECA signal to pass between outputs, but other than this [important] change, they're the same as the white ones.
> The filters block 475-625 MHz to keep the DECA signal from interfering with the SWiM, or receivers that don't have a DECA.


Ok, so that link shows the R1-03, so I got the right kind it would appear.


----------



## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

The black boxes are for bridging between DECA and your router (white DECA boxes can be used as well). A power supply is only required for the router connection (DECA boxes connected to receivers are powered by the receiver). You may need a bandstop filter if your SWM isn't the "green label" version (although my system works fine without the filter). Green label splitters should be used.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm confused about being told I need BS filters. According to this diagram, you just need them before DirecTV boxes that are older. I have 3, and they are all H23 series, one being the DVR. My DirecTV network also does not go to any outlets not being used by DirecTV boxes. So, do I not really need BSFs?

Also, why can't I just do back to back DECA boxes with a short coax between them to bridge to my home network rather than using the 2 port splitter? I don't have a green label two port splitter is why I ask. It should be the same thing effectively.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

As mentioned earlier, you need a BSF before the dish (between dish and splitter) if the dish doesn't have a green label. You would also require a filter on SD receivers and any HR other than HX24's should you NOT want to use it with MRV. The DECA dongles prevent the DECA RF from "hitting" your participating receivers. Make sense?

Many older SWM8's do not have a green label, so a BSF is needed on those as well...


----------



## dmk679 (Sep 14, 2007)

Tex said:


> First, I tried WDS, and wow, WDS is the worst thing ever and I would not reccomend it to ANYONE. I thought WDS just halved bandwidth if you were using a relay to a relay, but nope, it's just plain horrible with each one you add, even with them set up as remotes and 2 set up as the main.


I was running 3 x LinksysWRT54GL (b/g) with tomato firmware linked together via WDS, had about 10 devices on the network. Throughput over 20mbps, measured real-time. Standard def MRV was fine, but sometimes stuttered on HD MRV.

Scrapped the wireless setup and ran 1000' of cat5e linked via 24-port switch. No hiccups now.

Just wanted to give my experience using WDS. Hope the DECA works for you.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tex said:


> Also, why can't I just do back to back DECA boxes with a short coax between them to bridge to my home network rather than using the 2 port splitter? I don't have a green label two port splitter is why I ask. It should be the same thing effectively.


To my knowledge, the DECA does not supply power on the other side which would make that a non-starter to begin with.

Secondly, even if it did, the DECA closest to SWiM would filter out all of the frequencies needed by the DECA closest to the receiver.

Either way, one of the DECAs (and probably both) would be rendered useless if you did this.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> To my knowledge, the DECA does not supply power on the other side which would make that a non-starter to begin with.
> 
> Secondly, even if it did, the DECA closest to SWiM would filter out all of the frequencies needed by the DECA closest to the receiver.
> 
> Either way, one of the DECAs (and probably both) would be rendered useless if you did this.


Glad you could make some sense out of that question. I couldn't.

"Daisychaining" DECAs simply doesn't work, for all the reasons you've posted.

the basic makeup of a DECA:
It has a diplexer to tap off the DECA signal, while it passes the SAT signals through. 
It has a DC block on the SAT end and a DC input on the receiver end to power it.


----------



## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Tex said:


> Also, why can't I just do back to back DECA boxes with a short coax between them to bridge to my home network rather than using the 2 port splitter? I don't have a green label two port splitter is why I ask. It should be the same thing effectively.


I didn't really understand the question at first either, but if your router is next to your receiver just use an ethernet switch to tie it into the mix (DECA dongle, receiver, and router plugged into switch.) It's not the recommended route, but since this is a DIY setup that's really a moot point. This will save you a 2-way splitter (which adds DB loss) and an extra DECA dongle.

Just remember that DECA frequencies will not pass through a DECA dongle, because they would hit the receiver. A DECA is effectively a BSF...


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> Glad you could make some sense out of that question. I couldn't.
> 
> "Daisychaining" DECAs simply doesn't work, for all the reasons you've posted.
> 
> ...


I don't really follow the DC block part. The way you have described it means that if you had DECA capable boxes without DECA units, everything would be fried because there is nothing to block the power being generated by the receivers. Unless you're saying that 4 sway splitter outside is attenuating the power level of the coax lines.



dsw2112 said:


> I didn't really understand the question at first either, but if your router is next to your receiver just use an ethernet switch to tie it into the mix (DECA dongle, receiver, and router plugged into switch.) It's not the recommended route, but since this is a DIY setup that's really a moot point. This will save you a 2-way splitter (which adds DB loss) and an extra DECA dongle.
> 
> Just remember that DECA frequencies will not pass through a DECA dongle, because they would hit the receiver. A DECA is effectively a BSF...


I'm just going to do this, as this serves my purpose, simple solution that somehow eluded me


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tex said:


> I don't really follow the DC block part. The way you have described it means that if you had DECA capable boxes without DECA units, everything would be fried because there is nothing to block the power being generated by the receivers. Unless you're saying that 4 sway splitter outside is attenuating the power level of the coax lines.


DC block .. means the DC (Direct Current - a.k.a. power) is blocked. The reason really isn't important. It just means that the second DECA up from the receiver in the daisy-chain situation would have zero power and thus not work.


----------



## sticketfan (Apr 25, 2007)

hilmar2k said:


> Prior to DECA, I had a wireless n network perform flawlessly for MRV. I used a Linksys WRT610n dual band router and Linksys WGA600n dual band gaming adapters. I separated the DIRECTV receivers on the 5.8GHz band and left all of the other traffic (be they n/b/g/a) on the 2.4GHz band. I had my router on the main floor of my house, and receivers at the other end of the main floor and in the basement and all were good.
> 
> Not sure if that helps you, but I just thought I'd share a setup using wireless that worked great.


i have a d link dual band wireless n router and everything works off of the 2.4 how the heck do i put the directv receivers or my tv on the 5.8. seems as if dual band is a waste for me when i have nothing on it. cuz now it seems as if my wirleless g laptops are slow...


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

You'll need a bridge - something the Linksys WGA600N or WET600N programmed to your N SSID / security key to connect to the device. Or connect it to a small switch and put multiple devices on it.

It will also speed up your G if you set the 2.4 band to G only.


----------



## Tex (Oct 25, 2010)

Doug Brott said:


> DC block .. means the DC (Direct Current - a.k.a. power) is blocked. The reason really isn't important. It just means that the second DECA up from the receiver in the daisy-chain situation would have zero power and thus not work.


Ok, I thought I had said enough to show I'm not dumb, but I guess not  I know what DC is, my point is, if you are saying the receivers OR the power inserter are putting out DC over coax, either way it doesn't really make sense. If it's coming from the SWM splitter outside, then without a DECA box, what is happening to that DC power when it hits your receivers? If it's coming from the receivers, is the SWM splitter blocking it? If it's just passing through everything except DECA boxes, then do the receivers have some sort of a block on them and that is why older units require a BSF? I'm guessing the last one is the correct answer. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense that the DECA boxes would not be passing that DC through, and still have enough to power another DECA.

It doesn't matter though, I have it all hooked up and it's working fine minus the broadband link. I went to use a switch, as someone suggested, but I worried about the fact that that switch was on a wireless link, and I was worried about routing issues. I don't really know if my setup is going to work properly with the broadband, because I have no way to put the DECA box by my router, as it's in a room with coax wired for my cable modem. If it's the gateway, traffic is going to try to go back to it for routing and then attempt to traverse the wireless link to my office. I ordered a two way green label splitter, but at this point, not sure how/if it's going to work.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Tex said:


> Ok, I thought I had said enough to show I'm not dumb, but I guess not  I know what DC is, my point is, if you are saying the receivers OR the power inserter are putting out DC over coax, either way it doesn't really make sense. If it's coming from the SWM splitter outside, then without a DECA box, what is happening to that DC power when it hits your receivers? If it's coming from the receivers, is the SWM splitter blocking it? If it's just passing through everything except DECA boxes, then do the receivers have some sort of a block on them and that is why older units require a BSF? I'm guessing the last one is the correct answer. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense that the DECA boxes would not be passing that DC through, and still have enough to power another DECA.


There are a few places DC is coming from:


The SWiM PI
Each receiver
Each have a designed/planned destination. The splitter has only one power passing port, for the SWiM PI to power the SWiM. The SWiM PI voltage is higher than what comes out of the receivers.
The receiver voltage either goes "nowhere" [blocked at the splitter] or to power a DECA.
The DECA can only be powered from the receiver connection end, so you can't power anything else upstream of this as the DECA blocks the DC out the SWiM end.
The BSF has nothing to do with DC and everything to do with blocking the DECA RF signal, which if the receiver or SWiM isn't blocked may cause distortion to the SAT signal.


----------

