# 11 years with out HD Locals



## blackhillsjk (Mar 2, 2012)

I did a post last year called "another year without Locals in HD".....This is an update to that post....So I am again without my locals in HD for 11years now....Every other provider including Direct tv has them in HD....And NO, why would I spend extra money for an antenna for something I should be getting anyway? It amazes me that with the population and the number of Dish network customers in Rapid City and the cabins/homes in the Black Hills that cannot have cable because of the terrain, that wouldn't be more of a priority. I love my Dish but come on now, its nearly 2014.....No excuses not to have HD Locals anywhere....And every year, someone from Dish puts a request in for me....Same results....Nada.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Unless you switch providers you'll most likely be posting this issue next year.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

What DMA are you in? Is it large enough to warrant DISH providing them? If not, don't you qualify for distant locals?


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## blackhillsjk (Mar 2, 2012)

Not sure how the distant locals works I guess. Also not sure what DMA means. I would be interested to know if that would work.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

What city are your locals transmitting from ? - This is probably your DMA - my guess would be Rapid City SD ?

With absolutely no info on your location - I can only guess based on your username.

And BTW - getting your locals in HD over the Air (OTA) will probably get you a BETTER picture than Dish (or Direct Tv) can deliver to you. As well as provide a bad weather backup (you are out on the great plains where you do have thunderstorms ? )


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

CCarncross said:


> What DMA are you in? Is it large enough to warrant DISH providing them? If not, don't you qualify for distant locals?


DISH and DirecTV cannot offer a distant in a market where there is a local of the same affiliate. So distants are out. (Some DirecTV customers may be grandfathered.)
AAD can offer distants if he is in a white area or can get a waiver but AAD is SD only.


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## shadough (Dec 31, 2006)

OTA would be the best option anyway, even tho it'll cost u a tiny bit of $. Even after HD locals get added to dish, the OTA will ensure you have local stations during "retransmission negotiations" and dish has to take away your locals because of a dispute, you'll still have them via OTA.


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## blackhillsjk (Mar 2, 2012)

I actually live in the Lead/Deadwood area. And yes my locals are from Rapid City. It still makes no sense that I would have to spend more money to go OTA when I already pay the same amount as all the users who do have locals in HD. It seems to me that I am not getting my monies worth compared to others. In this the year of 2014, there shouldn't even be a question on having or not having HD locals. We shouldn't even be having this conversation to begin with. HD should be a given. We normally don't have to worry about losing locals to thunderstorms....We have to deal with lots and lots of snow in the Black Hills which doesn't usually mess with them very often for some reason.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I understand what your saying but I'd have an over the air antenna too just because I like backups in general and that could help till you get your locals. 

Odd you don't have them in Hi Definition yet though anyway.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

FIne - let's put this in terms anyone can understand - "HOW MANY POTENTIAL DISH HD VIEWERS ARE IN YOUR LOCAL'S DMA ?"

The long and short of a market getting HD locals comes down to how much potential profit there is. I'm guessing that Rapid City is pretty small in the scheme of things - therefore - it makes Rapid City less likely to get Dish HD locals than say, Raleigh/Durham/Fayetteville (where I live).


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## blackhillsjk (Mar 2, 2012)

No offense, but I haven't actually taken a poll of my area....However, it shouldn't make any difference how many of us there are. The point is I pay the same as you do for my locals and I am not getting the same for my money as you are. In the time we live in with all the technology of computers, cell phones and everything else....It is absolutely asinine that all channels are not in HD. Charlie spends a lot of money on all these technologies and potential buyouts....Don't you think they could figure out how to get locals in HD? Just because Rapid City's population is only 70,000 not including the surrounding area that carry their locals, doesn't mean we are not as important or deserving of HD locals as anyone else. Maybe, you should be charged double the price for locals in HD than those of us who aren't important enough for Dish to be able to carry HD locals. Just a thought.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

blackhillsjk said:


> No offense, but I haven't actually taken a poll of my area....However, it shouldn't make any difference how many of us there are. The point is I pay the same as you do for my locals and I am not getting the same for my money as you are. In the time we live in with all the technology of computers, cell phones and everything else....*It is absolutely asinine that all channels are not in HD.* Charlie spends a lot of money on all these technologies and potential buyouts....Don't you think they could figure out how to get locals in HD? Just because *Rapid City's population is only 70,000* not including the surrounding area that carry their locals, doesn't mean we are not as important or deserving of HD locals as anyone else. Maybe, you should be charged double the price for locals in HD than those of us who aren't important enough for Dish to be able to carry HD locals. Just a thought.


So it sounds like you live in a pretty small DMA which makes it understandable why DISH may not be offering your locals in HD yet or possibly ever. Your other statement though. Its absolutely asinine that there are still millions upon millions of DISH and Directv subscribers that still have just SD, so you can see your statement it what is really asinine...it may not be what you want, but it is the current reality that you might want to learn to adjust to. It will be years before stand def is gone....


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Just to add to ccarncross comment about the number of SD receivers still out there -

http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/209378-how-many-sd-receivers-are-still-active-on-e/


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## RBA (Apr 14, 2013)

After pulling up 57732 on TVfool you might as well be satisfied with the SD broadcasts that you are getting. Fox and ABC seems to be your available broadcasters OTA on VHF lo &high channels all 2 edge. I guess if you don't like the SD broadcasts from DISH you can always switch to Directv You look like you are in an area you just have to be thankful you have something to watch HD or SD.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Not knowing your exact location in the Deadwood/Lead area, I just picked a spot on Gusherst st. near Billings Ave. and the reception is not that bad. You should get 2 ABC's (KHSD 11.1 (10) and KOTA 3.1 (2)) plus NBC on the translator K40GS on channel 40 and 2 FOX network channels (KIVV 5.1 (5) and KEVN 7.1 (7).

RF channels 5, 10 and 40 are pretty close (about 5 miles WSW) on Terry Peak, the others are either out of Rapid City (KOTA) or Spearfish to the NNW (K04GW - PBS).

If you go with the 3 channels that are on Terry Hilly you get FOX, ABC and NBC, there is no CBS in sight, and the signals are pretty strong so a small all channel antenna like the Antenna Direct 5884 ($42.99) or Channel master 5016 or 2018 ($89.99 and $69.99) should get all three, then you can add the PBS station from Spearfish on ch4 if you want to with a large VHF LOW band antenna like the Antennas Direct Y526 ($32.99) or the Antenna Craft Y5-2-6 ($27.99).


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I think that all the providers should start selling the locals in sd and the locals in hd that they are charged to carry seperatly so we can see how much we are being charged for them and if we don't want them we don't have to have them.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> I think that all the providers should start selling the locals in sd and the locals in hd that they are charged to carry seperatly so we can see how much we are being charged for them and if we don't want them we don't have to have them.


Until Congress changes the law that can't happen. Carry one carry all means deliver one deliver all. (All who have agreed to be carried.) DISH and DirecTV are not required to carry any local channels in each market, but if they carry one they must carry all. (DISH and DirecTV are also not required to carry locals in HD.)


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

That doesn't affect what I m suggesting at all. Showing people how much they are being charged and giving the customer the option to not subscribe to a channel that they would be charged for is a totally different thing then saying they have to carry channels that want to be carried if an agreement can be reached. DIRECTV, dish, and everyone else would still be carrying the channel, people just wouldn't have to subscribe to it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> That doesn't affect what I m suggesting at all. Showing people how much they are being charged *and giving the customer the option to not subscribe to a channel* that they would be charged for is a totally different thing then saying they have to carry channels that want to be carried if an agreement can be reached. DIRECTV, dish, and everyone else would still be carrying the channel, people just wouldn't have to subscribe to it.


DISH *cannot* give the customer the option to not subscribe to some of their locals. It is specifically forbidden by law. DISH must deliver all the local channels they have in a market or none to each customer. They *cannot* split the locals package and allow customers to opt out of some channels. It is forbidden.

The law would need to be changed before the locals package could be split.

The only exception to the "carry one carry all" law is if a station chooses not to be carried. In that case DISH is forbidden from delivering that particular station to any customer within that market. The channels in the market that agree to carriage (either by choosing "must carry" or choosing "consent to carry" and coming to an agreement) must be delivered to all customers subscribing to locals in that market. All or none.

47 USC § 338 (a) Carriage obligations
Each satellite carrier providing, under section 122 of title 17, secondary transmissions to subscribers located within the local market of a television broadcast station of a primary transmission made by that station shall carry upon request the signals of all television broadcast stations located within that local market ...

47 USC § 338 (d) Channel positioning
... the satellite carrier shall retransmit the signal of the local television broadcast stations to subscribers in the stations' local market on contiguous channels and provide access to such station's signals at a nondiscriminatory price and in a nondiscriminatory manner on any navigational device, on-screen program guide, or menu.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

There is nothing in the law that says I as a subscriber must buy all the locals or DISH has to sell them only as a package, it is ONLY that DISH must make them all available if they do one, and they should be approximately the same price each. 

Forced to carry them and forcing it to be part of any package or sold only all together are two very very different things. They must be available each network at about the same cost, no more than that. Nothing prevents them from selling them as an add on package for any amount, or selling them A La Carte at any price, as long as all networks are selling at approximately the same price.
Think about it - if they all had to be sold together only, what would it matter if DISH charged more for one of them? The very reason the same cost is in the law is because they can be sold individually.

I see a misconception I think in a post - DISH does not have to carry the locals in SD, and in fact in many markets do not. And they do not have to carry them in HD, in some markets do not even though they are available in HD.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH cannot sell individual locals a la carte. They can split the locals off of the main package (as they did up until 2011) but they cannot price and sell stations within the same market separately. It would be discriminatory to the less popular stations.

Tampa, your suggestion that DISH charge the same price for each local and let subscribers pick which ones they want is discriminatory. You're suggesting that a station that has chosen "must carry" forfeiting any compensation for carriage should be at risk of having customers not receive their station? Some penny pinching customer decides they want the big four but wants to save a couple of bucks so they don't get the independent stations in the market? Perhaps the customer would never watch them anyways but the whole point of the law is having all stations in the market offered in a non-discriminatory way. And that means carry one carry all ... and if any are carried in HD all must be offered carriage in HD.

And while stations do not have to be offered in SD, DISH cannot sell just the HD locals and not include the SD stations in that market. They cannot deliver the SD locals without the HD stations (or SD equivalents) with all stations in the locals package available from the same dish. No discrimination. All or none.


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## blackhillsjk (Mar 2, 2012)

So in the end, Dish doesn't really care about smaller markets. Every other provider apparently does in a market but Dish says take your SD stations and like it or lump it. Even tho your competition all has it....Eh, we don't need em any how..... "Now then....What other company can we buy to spend our money on instead of using it for our customers or potential customers?" BTW, don't get me wrong, other than this issue, Dish is by far better than Direct. I just don't get why this is an issue in the first place. So, you may commence flaming me as needed.


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## Orion9 (Jan 31, 2011)

That may or may not be to varying degrees of correctness. We're mostly just customers here so we really don't have answers to "why" type questions. Even customer support reps usually have scripted answers that don't really explain "why".

Years ago I used to work at one of the largest tech companies in America and for amusement I would sometimes read forums about our company and products to see what random outside people were saying about "why" we did what we did. I'd say they got it right about 10% of the time, and the guy who got it right was frequently not believed by the rest. So in the end it was just a bunch of random theories. 

In short, we really don't know. We can give you our guesses and we can give you our best end-user workarounds like get an antenna, switch providers etc.

So, if the theories amuse/interest you, as they do me, feel free to hang out. If you just want locals in HD, an antenna would appear to be quicker.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

blackhillsjk said:


> So in the end, Dish doesn't really care about smaller markets. Every other provider apparently does in a market but Dish says take your SD stations and like it or lump it. Even tho your competition all has it....Eh, we don't need em any how..... "Now then....What other company can we buy to spend our money on instead of using it for our customers or potential customers?" BTW, don't get me wrong, other than this issue, Dish is by far better than Direct. I just don't get why this is an issue in the first place. So, you may commence flaming me as needed.


DISH simply has not gotten around to your market yet. DISH upgraded several markets to HD last year ... and no carrier delivers HD locals into every market in the US. Cable companies have the benefit of only needing to serve each local market without backhauls across the country and spotbeam satellites. And cable does not serve every community.

I realize that to the individual subscriber THEIR market is the most important in the nation (to hell with every other market). DISH has to deal with all markets. Hopefully they will get to yours this year.


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## blackhillsjk (Mar 2, 2012)

I really know that is the case...It is just frustrating to no end spending the money I do for Dish and not have HD signals. Its also interesting to hear it from others who more than likely already get locals in HD tell me how I should spend extra money for OTA HD. By the way, I live in the Black Hills and a friend who does have OTA and he has a hell of the time with getting a steady signal which he finds very frustrating.


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## Orion9 (Jan 31, 2011)

A few years ago Dish had a price dispute with one my locals and it was off the air for about ~6 weeks I think. Not SD-ized - just gone. There was one show on that channel that I liked a LOT so I got an antenna and watched it OTA. And yes it wasn't as easy as I would have liked because the signal varied and my location is awful - right behind a forested hill. And I didn't have a DVR at that time that integrated OTA signals so I actually had to.. gasp.... sit down in front of the TV at some predetermined time.

But I was a tad frustrated so I did it. If I was "frustrated to no end " then I might have taken further measures:

Better/higher antenna
Cable
DirecTV
Move (That would be the "frustrated to no end " answer I guess )

But I was just a little frustrated so I put a cheesy little antenna up and watched it. Just letting you know that I've had the occasional OTA frustration too, but I still can't tell you anything about the whys or the whens of yours.


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## shadough (Dec 31, 2006)

You also dont have to spend money on buying an ANTENAE. Apparently you can make your own. Just follow along on this youtube video: 




Voila, I solved your problem of having to BUY one, *gasp*


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