# FIOS or DirecTV



## fyton2v (Aug 15, 2005)

Anyone here ditch DTV to go with FIOS TV?

It's been in my area for a while. I've had Verizon's fiber Internet and phone service for a year, but I kept D* because I like my HD Tivo box. Since I'll be needing to switch to the MPEG4 gear pretty soon I have to make the choice.

I've done some searches, but it's hard to find out how the new D* HD DVR box compares with Verizon's HD DVR. Anyone?


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## Dolly (Jan 30, 2007)

I'm glad you have had such good luck with Verizon. Their phone service has been terrible for me :raspberry I wouldn't leave D for anything that had to do with Verizon :girlscrea


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## Reggie3 (Feb 20, 2006)

fyton2v said:


> Anyone here ditch DTV to go with FIOS TV?
> 
> It's been in my area for a while. I've had Verizon's fiber Internet and phone service for a year, but I kept D* because I like my HD Tivo box. Since I'll be needing to switch to the MPEG4 gear pretty soon I have to make the choice.
> 
> I've done some searches, but it's hard to find out how the new D* HD DVR box compares with Verizon's HD DVR. Anyone?


Fios from Verizon would be the only thing that would make me switch. The speed from their internet is orders of magnitude faster than cable. Phone service is close to the coverage of ATT(Cingular) if not more. There are areas in the mts here that Verizon covers and my ATT does not.

Bandwidth is huge - and on the same order as D* will have with the new sats.

You can save lots of money with the triple play (internet, tv, cell phone) packages.

It would make me think hard of giving up D* (I've been with D* since 96'


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## funhouse69 (Mar 26, 2007)

I have been a D* customer forever as well and I have to say that I finally decided to upgrade to HD back at the beginning of the year. At the time my only choices were D* and two cable companies. I decided to give D* the nod which has been a disaster pretty much since day one. I've had the better part of 10 service calls to perform the upgrade and get me up and running and tuned, re-tuned and tuned again. 

At the same time I was doing some usability testing with Verizon on their FIOS Service and have to say that from the get go their intention was to provide an unparalleled HD Picture right from the beginning. From everything I've seen in that testing as well as at friends houses I would have to say that they are delivering just that.

During this fiasco FIOS became available in my town but not their TV :nono2: I immediately jumped on their Internet which I have to say has been flawless with speed and performance only second to the connection I have at work (I work at a Tier 4 ISP) which would be hard to beat but FIOS is pretty freaking close. I would have jumped on their TV in a second but to date it still isn't available with no ETA (issues with my town which always happens). 

I should probably mention that until my upgrade to HD I was a die hard TiVO fan and was thoroughly disappointed when I got my first HR20. To this day I still have an SD TiVO that I use more 90% of the time only because there isn't that much HD content on D* yet. 

Now almost 8 months later, only 4 months with HD (yup it took that long to get upgraded!) I will say that the D* picture quality is great but IMHO FIOS is far superior on both HD and SD. I have however warmed up to the HR20 and recently (of course not without the usual fiasco) got my second HR20 in preparation for the new channels in September. 

If FIOS was TV was offered to me tomorrow I don't think that I could be easily converted over as much as I know it is a superior picture quality. I'm happy enough with the PQ of the HR20 and hope that D* will give the HD and SD content for that matter the bandwidth that it deserves. 

At this point I'm pretty contractually and financially committed to D* but if I keep having issues I will have no problem whatsoever doing whatever it takes to get away from them. If however I had the change to do it all over again and had my choice between the two it would be FIOS all the way.


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## CoachGibbs (May 23, 2007)

I'd dump D* for FIOS in a heartbeat if it was available here. Hell I'd dump D* for Comcast if they had cable on my street.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I switched to FIOS back in February and never looked back. The TV is far better than what DTV currently offers. And yes, Virginia, you CAN use the S3 with FIOS. You can also use the new Tivo HD model that was just introduced for only $299. There's a ton of info on it posted at the Tivo Community Forum as well as the Tivo website. The installers told me that Verizon is supposed to be adding more new HD channels but I have not yet been able to determine what they might be. I suspect they will pretty much parallel what DTV is going to offer come September but only time will tell. I figure if any national cable channels are going Hi-Def then they should be available to any provider that has the bandwidth to carry them.

My internet with FIOS has been hit or miss. I've had issues with it from day one but I have a feeling I may be the exception to the rule. Everyone else I've talked with has had flawless performance. When mine works it works great but it has a tendency to drop the connection intermittently and it won't connect to anything for several minutes. Once it clears up and reconnects, everything is back to normal.

I already had local phone service with Verizon so when they offered me a local plan for the same price that included unlimited long distance I jumped all over it. I had issues getting my long distance switched from AT&T to Verizon because the CSRs kept screwing it up. Here's a tip if you're thinking about switching - make sure the CSR doesn't try to switch your long distance service with you still on the line. The line has to be free in order for the switch to occur so have them make the switch after you hang up and then have them call you back. I kept getting bills from AT&T for several months after supposedly being switched to Verizon. It took me about 4 or 5 phone calls before they got it right.

I also have my wireless phone service with Verizon. The best part is that you can get all four services lumped into one monthly bill instead a bunch of individual statements. When I signed up Verizon gave me a $100 prepaid American Express card. When they came out and installed the ONT (Optical Network Terminal) in my house the ground was still frozen so they couldn't bury the cable. A crew came out the next day with jackhammers and dug a trench. I then got a call from Verizon apologizing for the delay in getting the cable buried so they sent me another $50 for my troubles.

Support has been excellent. I called to complain about my internet problem and they scheduled someone to come out the same day to replace the router. I ran out to the Post Office right after I hung up but by the time I got back home 40 minutes later there was a note on my front door that said "Sorry we missed you." I called Verizon to reschedule and they set it up for between 1 and 5 that afternoon. The 2nd guy showed up within the hour and swapped out my router. Try getting that kind of quick response from Comcast or DirecTV.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Not one of the FIOS responders said one thing at all about their HD DVR. Kinda makes you wonder. I believe there was a post or two by Earl Bonovich, a mod here, that he had found some info having to do with no DLB's(Dual Live Buffers) on their DVRs as is the current case with the HR20. 

To be fair, did all you FIOS responders to the original post just accidentally miss what he was actually asking about, a comparison of the 2 DVR offerings?


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## AllieVi (Apr 10, 2002)

I recommend *this site* for information/discussions about FiOS TV.

People who have switched from satellite and cable often post their opinions.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

I have both, D* for my television needs and FIOS for my internet (20/5!!) and phone needs.

I have seen the FIOS tv in action and the guide leaves a lot to be desired. The HD DVR seemed to work well, but I did not play with it enough to really compare to the HR20.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

NYSmoker said:


> I have both, D* for my television needs and FIOS for my internet (20/5!!) and phone needs.
> 
> I have seen the FIOS tv in action and the guide leaves a lot to be desired. The HD DVR seemed to work well, but I did not play with it enough to really compare to the HR20.


I'm in your boat NYSmoker. I passed on the FIOS TV (just started a new 2-year contract) while switching from OOL to FIOS for internet.

For the folks who say it's cheaper, I believe that's true...unless you carry a few DVRS. While they offer MRV, it's not an HD solution.

From what I've seen of SD, the PQ and MRV is excellent from their QIP 6416. I haven't seen HD though.

Anyway, it's an interesting time with DirecTV now. The HR20 is getting better all the time and there will be a slew of new HD channels real soon.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Their programing is about the same price as D*, but they a offer a few less channels in some ares and a few more in others. Until FIOS offers the National RSN Sports package, I wouldn't even consider it. FIOS currently offers a few more HD channels than D*, but that will change soon.

But the deal killer for me would be the $10.00 a month charge for the HD receiver and the $13.00 a month charge for the HD DVR, making it much more expensive than D* or E*.


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## jzinckgra (Jul 10, 2007)

Yeah, I wish Verison would get Fios lines in my area, but that won't happen anytime soon. Charter cable rules the roost in my area and from what I;ve heard, there is some legislation which would allow Verizon to compete more with cable companies in the future. Verizon does service our area with phone service though.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> Not one of the FIOS responders said one thing at all about their HD DVR. Kinda makes you wonder. I believe there was a post or two by Earl Bonovich, a mod here, that he had found some info having to do with no DLB's(Dual Live Buffers) on their DVRs as is the current case with the HR20.
> 
> To be fair, did all you FIOS responders to the original post just accidentally miss what he was actually asking about, a comparison of the 2 DVR offerings?


I have two Fios DVRs and I switched from two Dish 622s, which every one raves
about. After one night of getting used to the Fios DVR, I have never looked
back and forgot about the Dish 622. Maybe the Dish 622 is slightly better, but
to me its a non issue. You get used to the Fios DVR and it works well.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

loudo said:


> Their programing is about the same price as D*, but they a offer a few less channels in some ares and a few more in others. Until FIOS offers the National RSN Sports package, I wouldn't even consider it. FIOS currently offers a few more HD channels than D*, but that will change soon.
> 
> But the deal killer for me would be the $10.00 a month charge for the HD receiver and the $13.00 a month charge for the HD DVR, making it much more expensive than D* or E*.


The main issue in switching to Fios is whether you are getting the TV channels
that you want. The Fios channel lineup is pretty good and offers something
for everyone. I got three HD RSNs on Fios, which was my main reason for switching. However, D* has programming that Fios does not. If the D* programming, like National RSN's, MLB EI, Sunday Ticket, Setanta, etc. is important
to you, Fios is not for you. I have two Fios HD receivers @ $10 and two Fios
HD DVRs @ $13 for a total of $46. The basic Fios package of $43 and no charge
for locals or HD was about $30 less a month than I was paying Dish Network
for four receivers, because Dish Network charges $20 for HD, $5 for locals and $6 for a second DVR. The high cost of the Fios receivers is partially offset by the
no HD charge and lower cost of the basic package which includes more
channels than the basic package of other MVPs.


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## VicF (Sep 5, 2006)

I am on Fiber for internet and phone - 10Mb up & down; they have 50Mb bidirectional available. My telco, Surewest, uses strictly TCP/IP for everything including IPTV, no more copper. The HD DVR is not quite out yet but has some really neat possibilities such as, record 3-4 channels at once, any room viewing from the DVR/Hub. The cost looks like $13 higher and no definite date for DVR so I am staying with D* for now. If anyone is interested they use Aminocom IPTV equipment.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

FiOS looks to be very promising, and when it gets to where I live, I will definitely re-evaluate my options.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

man_rob said:


> FiOS looks to be very promising, and when it gets to where I live, I will definitely re-evaluate my options.


I would say this is where I am at too, but since I live in a town of 20,000 although we have verizon telephone and standard DSL here, it is going to be 5-10 years before we see it, if ever. And then they would have to have made inroads into the DTV sports monopoly.:lol:


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

Dolly said:


> I'm glad you have had such good luck with Verizon. Their phone service has been terrible for me :raspberry I wouldn't leave D for anything that had to do with Verizon :girlscrea


Verizon is really hit or miss.

Phone service down here is perfect but in other places its terrible


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I've been having this same debate for almost a year (when FiOS first became available here). I plan on getting HD in a few months (have been waiting for the new Sony XBR5) and have been researching since January. A couple of months ago I was pretty set on leaving D* and going to FiOS, mainly because I've seen the picture quality and it does appear to be better to me (both SD and HD). FiOS will save me money as well because I alreay have the phone and internet service (and cell phone). I also hadn't kept up with the current D* DVR's and last I heard they were pure crap. Then I started reading this site and now I'm leaning toward staying with D*, but still not sure. I've been subscribed to a couple of FiOS thread over at avs for a long time and have read all about the service. The consensus is that the DVR is crap. 

After reading most of the threads here, the HR20 sounds much better than the FiOS DVR. A couple of the main things that are deal breakers about the FiOS DVR:

1. Inability to expand the capacity ( I currently have a total capacity of 400 hours of SD on my 2 D*Tivo's, so their limited capacity won't cut it).
2. No discreet IR codes ( I need to have 2 units in my living room - which I then distribute throughout the house - you can't do that with the FiOS DVR because both units would always be controlled by the remote).

It's also much more prone to missing recordings and various other flaws than the HR20 is according to what I've read.

Additionally, the HR20 seems to be the most similar to a tivo and due to WAF, that's a big issue. She LOVES the Tivo and changing to something totally different would be very hard - especially because she does most of the TV viewing.


So, I still haven't made a final decision on which way to go (FiOS with a standalone Tivo would be ideal, but I don't want to outlay that kind of money- especially since I'd need 2 or 3 of them- and don't want to pay Tivo's monthly fee), but as I said, I'm currently leaning toward staying with D* because of the improvements I've read about on the HR20, the ease of switching to HD with them, the hard drive upgrade abilities and the ability to use the HR20 with my current set-up. Having lifetime DVR capabilities with D* doesn't hurt either.

If FiOS improves their DVR over the next few months to include discreet IR codes and an expandable hard drive, I'll switch to FiOS.


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## Araxen (Dec 18, 2005)

I'd drop DirecTV in a heartbeat if FIOS was in my area, but sadly it's not going to be around here for a long, long, long time. =/


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## anytimeuwnt (Jun 3, 2007)

NFL Sunday Ticket... That's it.

If you are addicted to it (as I am) you can't change.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

CoachGibbs said:


> I'd dump D* for FIOS in a heartbeat if it was available here. Hell I'd dump D* for Comcast if they had cable on my street.


I have had Comcast and I dumped them for D*, don't go back. You pay more for less channels per month.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

anytimeuwnt said:


> NFL Sunday Ticket... That's it.
> 
> If you are addicted to it (as I am) you can't change.


+1...look at my avatar, you figure it out.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> I've been having this same debate for almost a year (when FiOS first became available here). I plan on getting HD in a few months (have been waiting for the new Sony XBR5) and have been researching since January. A couple of months ago I was pretty set on leaving D* and going to FiOS, mainly because I've seen the picture quality and it does appear to be better to me (both SD and HD). FiOS will save me money as well because I alreay have the phone and internet service (and cell phone). I also hadn't kept up with the current D* DVR's and last I heard they were pure crap. Then I started reading this site and now I'm leaning toward staying with D*, but still not sure. I've been subscribed to a couple of FiOS thread over at avs for a long time and have read all about the service. The consensus is that the DVR is crap.
> 
> After reading most of the threads here, the HR20 sounds much better than the FiOS DVR. A couple of the main things that are deal breakers about the FiOS DVR:
> 
> ...


Looks like expandibility is your key to staying or moving to service. The HR20 (HD-DVR) has undocumented support (not an official featurel, basically if you called D* they would pretend to not know what you speak of) for external hard drive add-on. Basically you can get an E-sata drive and expand your capacity based on need. I believe a 1 tb (terabyte) drive would give you roughly 200 hours of HD recording on Mpeg 4 HD (locals and future HD) and about 150 current HD national channels. Hope this information helps. I have had a HR20 for 3 months, no problems...yet.


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## fyton2v (Aug 15, 2005)

For me I think it's really about total price and coolness factor. I watch very little TV outside of college football season. Mostly kids stuff for the family, but HD programming is a must.

I have to get this whole thing wrapped up before the first college game. I guess I'll call DTV and see if they'll replace my HD DVR, HD receiver, and do the upgrade to the new dish, etc. for free. There is no way I'm going to pay for that stuff. If they don't, I'll go with FIOS. However, it would be nice to know if I should even bother with D* at this point. I'd like to ditch the dish and if FIOS has a lower total cost it'll be hard to stay with D* even though I've been a customer since the beginning.


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## drx792 (Feb 28, 2007)

Well, i want FiOS internet really bad, but not the TV. D* offers exactly what I want so I will stick with them for a looonnnggg time. Oh and plus I'll never get FiOS anyway unless they get contracts to roll it out to non-verizon areas, and almost take over the country like my phone provider, At&t likes to do. At&t isnt bad, i havent had problems but man what the hell are they thinking with U-verse. It was outdated before it was even released.


I also doubt the DVR is that good though. IIRC they are motorola's(unless that changed recently) and they arent too swift. That charge would also hurt you if you like HD and DVR's.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

fyton2v said:


> For me I think it's really about total price and coolness factor. I watch very little TV outside of college football season. Mostly kids stuff for the family, but HD programming is a must.
> 
> I have to get this whole thing wrapped up before the first college game. I guess I'll call DTV and see if they'll replace my HD DVR, HD receiver, and do the upgrade to the new dish, etc. for free. There is no way I'm going to pay for that stuff. If they don't, I'll go with FIOS. However, it would be nice to know if I should even bother with D* at this point. I'd like to ditch the dish and if FIOS has a lower total cost it'll be hard to stay with D* even though I've been a customer since the beginning.


What recievers do you exactly have? If you have H10 and HR10-250 you should be able to get an HR20 to replace a HR10-250. I would think a D* CSR would be smart enough to get you a H20 for free to replace a H10. Besides that the install is free now. If you want HD programming for the price D* will be the best deal for the number of channels available. Also Versus HD and BTN (Big 10 Network) HD will have a fair amount of college football in HD, which is a must for you. I don't know what Verizon is doing with FIOS HD service but I know they don't carry BTN HD or Versus HD. $10 for HD is a good deal but long term DBS costs are typically cheaper than Cable/FIOS products. Also D* will have more HD than the competition later this year.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

I again find it comical when people choose a HD Service based on the DVR instead of the picture quality.

That's as smart as choosing a HDTV based on size opening on a shelf instead of what the picture looks like.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I again find it comical when people choose a HD Service based on the DVR instead of the picture quality.
> 
> That's as smart as choosing a HDTV based on size opening on a shelf instead of what the picture looks like.


+1 or choosing on few choices versus many choices in HD channels. I didn't buy an HDTV to watch very little HD darn it!


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## fyton2v (Aug 15, 2005)

convem24 said:


> What recievers do you exactly have?


I'm not up on the model numbers. I think I have the HR10-250. It was the latest/best MPEG2 STB with the Tivo. I think I paid about 500 bucks for it. I also have an older Panasonic HD receiver, plus one of their SD receivers.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I again find it comical when people choose a HD Service based on the DVR instead of the picture quality.
> 
> That's as smart as choosing a HDTV based on size opening on a shelf instead of what the picture looks like.


Unfortunately, you have to consider both because the quality of some DVRs is so bad it constantly interferes with being able to watch the programming you're paying for.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Unfortunately, you have to consider both because the quality of some DVRs is so bad it constantly interferes with being able to watch the programming you're paying for.


And you also have to consider the size, because if the TV doesn't fit on the shelf, then it doesn't do you any good there.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

fyton2v said:


> I'd like to ditch the dish and if FIOS has a lower total cost it'll be hard to stay with D* even though I've been a customer since the beginning.


Then be sure to not get suckered by the low-ball first year pricing. I've read lots of complaints that after the first year is up (a la Comcast) the prices jack up quite a bit, especially for the TV service.


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## Steve Robertson (Jun 7, 2005)

Redlinetire said:


> Then be sure to not get suckered by the low-ball first year pricing. I've read lots of complaints that after the first year is up (a la Comcast) the prices jack up quite a bit, especially for the TV service.


Gee I am shocked that they would do this :lol: How much have they gone up after the 1st year?


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## fyton2v (Aug 15, 2005)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I again find it comical when people choose a HD Service based on the DVR instead of the picture quality.
> 
> That's as smart as choosing a HDTV based on size opening on a shelf instead of what the picture looks like.


For the record... I'm one of those people that think D*'s current HD picture is good enough. I'm a bit skeptical about adding the additional compression that the MPEG4 channels will endure, but they will probably be "good enough" too.

I can only assume that the FIOS HD picture is at least as good as D*'s since they'll have less bandwidth constraints.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I'll give my take of the pros and cons of each. I was a directv customer for 5 years, and switched over to fios in april. As for differences in the DVRs, I'm at a bit of a disadvantage because: a) I never had the HR20 - although I did have 2 R15s, which are functionally similar (although not identical) and b) Verizon is in the process of rolling out their new IMG guide s/w. They started that roll-out this week, and is slated to be wrapped up by the end of the summer. The one thing is that, while it dramatically changes the look and feel (and the mechanisms by which some things are accessed), from all I've heard it doesn't dramatically impact the functionality of the DVR. Here are my general impressions of the motorola DVR that Verizon uses:

Pros:
1) It's fast. I've read complaints that it's slower than other DVRs on the market. I don't doubt that's true, but compared to my R15s it's lightening fast.

2) Very easy to use and very very intuitive. There's no manual with the DVR that I got - but you don't need one.

3) It's integrated - meaning that the dvr functionality is integrated with the live tv feed, although not as well as my R15s were (although this is one of those areas that are changing, from what I understand).

4) It is multi-room capable. I have one DVR and one standard STB. I have the multi-room feature activated, which lets me feed DVR recordings to my standard STB (up to 6 total, and up to 3 at the same time). Overall this functionality works really really well. There are some caveats, though:

a) No HD feed. While the DVR is an HD DVR, it won't feed out HD programming to other STBs. In fact, the HD STB doesn't even support the feed from the DVR. If you want to feed it out, you need a standard def STB on that other TV. This is one thing that Verizon is looking to fix, however.

b) Can't maintain recordings on that second TV. All I can do off my standard STB is watch stuff that's already recorded on the DVR. I can't delete that recording I just watched... nor can I set up new recordings... and I can't even get to my series manager.

c) There is a lag when hitting the trickplay buttons. Basically, I press ffwd, and it takes a good 3 or 4 seconds (sometimes longer) for the feed on my TV to respond. There's a reason for this. The MR capability is fed via IP. So, I hit ffwd, the command has to go from my STB to my router to my DVR, and the response has to come back over the same loop (DVR -> router -> STB).


5) No goofy limits. I understand the HR20 doesn't have these limits, but my R15s used to. There's no limit to the number of items on my todo list, e.g., or how many series I can set up. Nor is there that goofy requirement that I can't set up the same series on multiple channels.

6) It's reliable. It records what I tell it to. Amazing concept, that is. I have heard some complaints about missed recordings. Based on what I'd read, though, that can be attributed to two things:

a) user error - this one bit me. The default set up for a series is... odd. And based on that, I missed an episode of 24 that I wanted to see. I should have changed the settings for the series.

b) bad guide data - the guide data for Verizon sucks. It's pretty crappy. The good news is that, from what I understand, Verizon signed an agreement with gemstar to start getting their guide feed from them.


Cons:
1) Small, non-expandable harddrive. This sucker only had 160GB in it. And you can't expand it. What makes it worse/better (depending on your perspective) is that this DVR doesn't hold programming at the same rate as directv does. What does that mean? Well, with DirecTV, the standard seems to be that 1 hour of SD takes about 1 GB of space. On this DVR, it takes about 2 - 3 GB of space to store that same hour of SD. That's bad from one perspective, because that means that you're looking at 80 hours of SD programming, tops, or 20 hours of HD. It's good from another perspective - the reason for the additional space comes down to compression - verizon doesn't compress their signal nearly as much as DirecTV does.

2) Functionality - While this thing has some nice touches that are largely shared by the HR20 (one touch recording, e.g.) I find the functionality lacking. It's nowhere near as functional as the HR20. For example, the search capability is weak, in my opinion. There's nothing resembling a bookmark - and there really are no tickmarks in the playback bar. There are no cool features like mark & delete (I thought this would be a pain at first because I REALLY liked that mar & delete, until I realized that the reason I liked that mark & delete was due to speed - the R15 was so slow that deleting individual programs that the mark & delete was indispensible - this box, on the other hand is quick, and doing multiple deletes, one at a time, isn't painful at all). I basically put it this way - the moto DVR doesn't do as much as the direcTV dvrs, but what it does do, it does really well.

3) No OTA feed. The HR20 allows you to feed OTA directly into it, and record programming off of it. The moto box doesn't. That's not really an issue for me, though. When I looked at getting the HR20 it would have been an issue because DirecTV doesn't carry all my HD locals - and they carry none of the digital subchannels. With FiOS I get all my HD locals, and all my digital subchannels, so I really don't care. In some markets, however (e.g. virginia beach) they're still negotiating with some of the network affiliates, and have yet to carry those stations in HD. Not a problem around here.

4) Monthly fee. While the HR20 is expensive up front, the monthly fee is greatly reduced. Well, you do pay for it... it's just in your subscription pack. Verizon is like other cable outfits - you pay per DVR, and it's not cheap (although cheaper than say Comcast). The HD DVR is $16/month per DVR. The multiroom is $20/month, plus $5/month for the standard STB. But this is offset by the price of programming. For $43/month you get everything (except for special subscription packs - like HBO, or the sports pack), including HD. So when I weigh everything out, fios is cheaper overall than directv would have been for their HD programming.


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## fyton2v (Aug 15, 2005)

jpl said:


> I'll give my take of the pros and cons of each.


Great! Thanks for taking the time to break it down to that detail.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

Steve Robertson said:


> Gee I am shocked that they would do this :lol: How much have they gone up after the 1st year?


On another forum people were complaining that it was near $70/month which (surprise, surprise) would place it near D* and cable. There were a few spotty complaints that the phone went up about $10/month too.

But as one of my professors once said: "The plural of anecdote is not data"


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I again find it comical when people choose a HD Service based on the DVR instead of the picture quality.
> 
> That's as smart as choosing a HDTV based on size opening on a shelf instead of what the picture looks like.


I make my choice based on content rather than PQ or DVRs. We all have our own priorities.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

fyton2v said:


> Great! Thanks for taking the time to break it down to that detail.


No problem. I have to say, I really love the fios service. I loved my directv service too, but the PQ on fios is just amazing. That is it's biggest selling point, by far. I never had HD with directv, but the HD on fios is just jaw-dropping. And the SD is sharper and more realistic looking that DirecTV's.

Oh, there was one other con I forgot to mention. This kinda caught me by surprise, so I figured I'd include it here. With FiOS just about all purchased programming (aka PPV) comes in via VOD. That's all well and good except for a couple things (one of which has to do with the DVR). First, they currently don't have HD VOD (a major issue that they're actively addressing, and are supposed to have available by year's end - we'll see). So if you want to watch that movie in HD... well, you're outta luck. Unless you have one of the movie channels, and you wait for it to hit HBO.

Second, you can't record VOD on your DVR. This is a bit of an issue for me. With DirecTV I didn't order PPV all that often, but when I did, it was normally for my kids. And anyone with kids can tell you, they watch movies over and over again. So I would order a kids movie, and have it recorded on my DVR and they could watch it ad infinitum. Well, with fios you can't record VOD. You order a movie via VOD, and you have 24 hours to watch it. You can watch it repeatedly in that 24 hours, but you can't save it off anywhere.

One final point. I throw this reco out to everyone considering this switch. If you're seriously considering fios, then do what I did. Order fios installed, and then suspend your directv account. You can suspend for up to 9 months, and is really easy to do. Fios gives you a 30-day trial period, so you can play around with it to see if you like it. A couple caveats with that, though:

1) Make sure you let the fios installer know that you haven't settled on getting rid of directv yet. Verizon installers will try to reuse as much of your existing cabling as possible. If you don't tell them about any special requests, they're going to go with whichever installation is easiest. I asked my installer to do just that. He was great - he left the cables from my dish totally in place. Instead, he reused an old comcast cable I still had snaking into my house. If I wanted to go back to directv, it would be real easy - just a matter of disconnecting one cable, and reconnecting two others.

2) The 30-day trial is in effect even if you take the 1-year commitment. The commitment isn't required, but it saves you $5/month. And it doesn't kick in for 30 days. However - and this is a big however - that's not the case with most of their triple play offerings (which I also have). The deals for triple-play vary by state, but around here the triple play gives you a 2-year commitment and the commitment period starts right away. Just something to keep in mind. Also, you can always ADD the triple play after you've signed up. That's exactly what I did. Triple play wasn't offered in PA when I signed up, so I signed up without it. Two weeks later they started a triple play offer in PA, and I just signed up for it then. Of course, in so doing I threw away the remaining 2 weeks of my trial period.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

joed32 said:


> I make my choice based on content rather than PQ or DVRs. We all have our own priorities.


Definitely something to consider. But right now, with the exception of sports subscription packs, Fios offers more content too. Both HD and SD. Of course what happens starting this fall is anyone's guess - DirecTV will definitely have more HD for a period of time, but how long that is remains to be seen.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Redlinetire said:


> On another forum people were complaining that it was near $70/month which (surprise, surprise) would place it near D* and cable. There were a few spotty complaints that the phone went up about $10/month too.
> 
> But as one of my professors once said: "The plural of anecdote is not data"


Hmmm... again, I'll give my perspective. Before switching over, I was a fios internet customer for over a year, and I don't think my rates went up all that much after the first year.

And now that I'm a fios tv customer, my overall monthly bill has dropped, and the stuff I get has gone up. Before I was paying a total of about $155/month with everything. After switching to fios tv, and with leaving my phone and internet selections the same, my bill is now $145/month. Oh, and with that $145, I now get stuff that I didn't get before, such as:

- HD - that price includes all my HD programming
- Movie pack - for $13/month (rolled into that $145/month) I get 45 SD movie channels (starz, showtime, tmc, et. al.), plus 3 of those in HD, plus the VOD offerings for all those.

If I had done the equivalent with DirecTV, my bill would have been a heck of alot higher than $155/month. Just switching to the HD package would have put me up to $165 - $170/month. Add to that all the movie channels, and I'd be pushing $200/month.

Now, granted, part of my discount comes from the 1-year commitment that I signed ($5 off per month) and part of it is from the triple play ($27 off per month based on my package - which is in effect for 2 years), but even if I didn't have those discounts I would still be paying less.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

fyton2v said:


> I'm not up on the model numbers. I think I have the HR10-250. It was the latest/best MPEG2 STB with the Tivo. I think I paid about 500 bucks for it. I also have an older Panasonic HD receiver, plus one of their SD receivers.


You might, I saw might be able to get a HR20 for free. A friend of mine did, you need to ask. Plus the install is free, plus you get the new dish installed (5 LNB) for free. Good luck!


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## eahmjh (Dec 2, 2006)

Back in Nov 06 we had Fios Phone, Internet and TV installed. After one week we canceled the TV service. We have a horror story after canceling TV service for 3-4 months which is a long thread for another time. We found no value increase in Fios over D. I beleive in my and my wife opinion the HD service was equal with no differences found, one better or worse than the other. Now on the other hand we both felt that the SD service was worse and D has the better PQ. We also lost several feature with Fios that D had, 1) Fios had no RF remote, a must when the receive is out of IF line of site. 2) Fois's remote forced you to push 2 buttons to turn the TV and receiver on and off, D has the combined button. 3) Fios has no Caller ID feature a must in our house. 4) Local SD and HD channels on Fios where in 2 different places, eq. local channel 4 SD was on 4 on Fios and D, but local channel 4 HD was on 804 on Fios but D has local channel 4 HD on you guesed 4. We have been customers to D for 15 years (or when they first started broadingcasting whichever was first) and having my wife relearn all the channel numbers was extreme painful for me and she was unhappy and when the queen bee is unhappy then the worker bee is miserable. Also remember Fios has their share of poblems with their DVR as well as D. Internet and phone service (caller id starting working after upgrading to fiber phone service) is perfect, but we felt that D has better TV service and will stay with them through thick and thin, plus looking for the HD line ups in Sept.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

convem24 said:


> Looks like expandibility is your key to staying or moving to service. The HR20 (HD-DVR) has undocumented support (not an official featurel, basically if you called D* they would pretend to not know what you speak of) for external hard drive add-on. Basically you can get an E-sata drive and expand your capacity based on need. I believe a 1 tb (terabyte) drive would give you roughly 200 hours of HD recording on Mpeg 4 HD (locals and future HD) and about 150 current HD national channels. Hope this information helps. I have had a HR20 for 3 months, no problems...yet.


Yes, I know all that, that's why I'm leaning toward D* and not FiOS (they don't have this feature).


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

I was reading about FIOS at the Verizon website, I saw the Motorola DVR and a screenshot of the GUI, be warned...those DVRs are lousy and they have almost no space to store shows on, especially HD.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

fyton2v said:


> Anyone here ditch DTV to go with FIOS TV?
> 
> It's been in my area for a while. I've had Verizon's fiber Internet and phone service for a year, but I kept D* because I like my HD Tivo box. Since I'll be needing to switch to the MPEG4 gear pretty soon I have to make the choice.
> 
> I've done some searches, but it's hard to find out how the new D* HD DVR box compares with Verizon's HD DVR. Anyone?


If I have FIOS here, I would definitely think about switching


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I again find it comical when people choose a HD Service based on the DVR instead of the picture quality.


I find it comical you've posted this so many times.

I don't think anyone here has said that they'd choose one or the other SOLELY on the basis of the DVR. It seems that most think the HD quality is very close with either provider (some giving a slight edge to FiOS, some to D*). When you have picture quality that's that close it comes down to other factors (different for each person):

- The DVR
- The service
- The remote
- Price

So, if one had slightly better PQ (for this discussion will define slightly as almost indistinguishable for the vast majority of programming), but a DVR that never recorded properly or a DVR that didn't have key features you needed, you'd go with them anyway? I don't think so.

Why is that so hard to understand?


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

CCarncross said:


> I was reading about FIOS at the Verizon website, I saw the Motorola DVR and a screenshot of the GUI, be warned...those DVRs are lousy and they have almost no space to store shows on, especially HD.


From what I understand any problems associated with Moto Cable DVRs do no appear in the Fios DVR. They use different software. And I wouldn't exactly call a 160GB hard drive tiny. My Scientific Atlanta Cable DVR has a 160GB hard drive also, 98% of everything I record is in HD and very rarley is it over 60% full. A larger hard drive would be nice, but for me, even 160GB is too big. I watch then delete right away.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Well, we chased the old GTE out of most of California years go, deservedly so. Who knew that PacBell would be bought by goniffs and fools? So, my choices are poorly thought-out digital TV from SBC, or Time-Warner, or DirecTV. Not a hard decision.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

By my rough calcs 160GB would give you aprox. 15 or at best 20 hours of HD. Try to record a round or 2 or golf and 1-2 Nascar races every weekend and you're already over that. The whole point of teh DVR for me is to be able to store it for a few days when I have a chance to get to it.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> By my rough calcs 160GB would give you aprox. 15 or at best 20 hours of HD. Try to record a round or 2 or golf and 1-2 Nascar races every weekend and you're already over that. The whole point of teh DVR for me is to be able to store it for a few days when I have a chance to get to it.


I agree with you a 20 hr HD-DVR is rediculous!!!! That is why I have an HR20 with a 1 terabyte external drive (I think I roughly get over 200 hours of HD recording).

To another post (since this is a fios question) I pay $50 for my base package + 6 for DVR, plus 10 for HD access (more channels than FIOS will have in the short term and possibly long term) which is more than lets say a basic package with FIOS (43) but lets say you add in the HD-DVR (20 hours) for 16 it is a little less than D* (about 5 bucks) but in that package I will get about 50 HD channels as the additional HD channels launch this fall. I assume Verizon will have to increase their rates when they add in more HD service becuase of programming costs. Plus I am a sports nut I have to have MLB EI and NFL Sunday Ticket. I cannot get either right now on FIOS. For the serious sports customesr D* is the place to be.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

joed32 said:


> I make my choice based on content rather than PQ or DVRs. We all have our own priorities.


If that was true, you'd still be watching SD instead of HD as SD has more content than HD.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

jpl said:


> What makes it worse/better (depending on your perspective) is that this DVR doesn't hold programming at the same rate as directv does. What does that mean? Well, with DirecTV, the standard seems to be that 1 hour of SD takes about 1 GB of space. On this DVR, it takes about 2 - 3 GB of space to store that same hour of SD. That's bad from one perspective, because that means that you're looking at 80 hours of SD programming, tops, or 20 hours of HD. It's good from another perspective - the reason for the additional space comes down to compression - verizon doesn't compress their signal nearly as much as DirecTV does.


Correct - even SD looks better than E* or D* - or even cable - as good as the distribution is (which, quite frankly, looks as good as some of the crap channels are passing for HD).

Another plus for FIOS.

If someone wants a TIVO, then go buy on instead of a HR20 and put cable cards in the thing with FIOS.

Again, I laugh at those who make determinations based on hardware as HD was not about hardware - HD didnt stand for HarDware.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> By my rough calcs 160GB would give you aprox. 15 or at best 20 hours of HD. Try to record a round or 2 or golf and 1-2 Nascar races every weekend and you're already over that. The whole point of teh DVR for me is to be able to store it for a few days when I have a chance to get to it.


Hmmmm....a round or 2 of golf and 1-2 Nascar races every weekend give you close to 20 hours of HD - right.......


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

convem24 said:


> more channels than FIOS will have in the short term and possibly long term


FIOS, unlike D* or E*, has unlimited bandwidth.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> I find it comical you've posted this so many times.
> 
> I don't think anyone here has said that they'd choose one or the other SOLELY on the basis of the DVR. It seems that most think the HD quality is very close with either provider (some giving a slight edge to FiOS, some to D*). When you have picture quality that's that close it comes down to other factors (different for each person):
> 
> ...


Because the PQ is not a slight difference - its a major difference.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> FIOS, unlike D* or E*, has unlimited bandwidth.


What I refer to is the programming agreements right now. DIRECTV has more agreements in place at this time. Bandwidth not withstanding you must have programming available for customers. All I was referring to was commitments for programming, not bandwidth even though D* will have enough for all future programming needs. I would take FIOS over Cable but I need sports programming and FIOS and cannot offer that right now (I have FIOS internet). Typically FIOS right now has to negociate independly of the power that both cable and satellite have right now in terms of negociating power (costs are typically higher for smaller companies, I believe FIOS costs will be similar to Cable long term). Also Verizon has a problem with service area (franchise issues). I would think either Verizon or [email protected] would buy D* or E* so they can have a strong video company to round out their services. People change very slowly. Typically most people (except for the very very savvy will switch). I believe that industry wide there will be some merging of companies. We shall see. Bandwidth is important but technology to go along with that bandwidth (ie flexible DVR systems, interactive programming and reasonable programming costs). Again I have no crystal ball but no one will really know what is going to happen.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Sure...
Sat and Sun golf, about 3-4 hours each (6-8 hours)
Qualifying and race for Busch and Nascar, about 1-2 hours per qualifying(2-4 hours), and anywhere from 3-5 hours per race(6-10 hours)
for a total of 14-22 hours....

1 episode of a few series from during the week I havent had a chance to watch yet is another 3-4 hours or so. Now throw one 2 hour movie per week in there as well....You can easily see for even moderately busy people 20 hours is about the bare minimum.

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all about this, just trying to show how it all adds up. Also the reason I have twin 500GB drives in RAID0 for my HR20.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> By my rough calcs 160GB would give you aprox. 15 or at best 20 hours of HD. Try to record a round or 2 or golf and 1-2 Nascar races every weekend and you're already over that. The whole point of teh DVR for me is to be able to store it for a few days when I have a chance to get to it.


You're right - the hard drive is too small in my opinion. I recorded one episode of Planet Earth on Discovery HD and it took nearly 20 GB of space. However, and I'll throws this out there - since fios uses QAM you have a couple other options that DirecTV doesn't give you. For example, if space were that much of an issue I could go out and get a series 3 Tivo DVR with a couple cable cards - problem solved. Personally, for me, it's not an issue. Based on how we tend to watch TV (we generally use the DVR to record a handful of shows - mostly SD - and we watch them within a couple days of recording). In fact, that's the reason I opted for the multi-room DVR and second STB, vs. 2 DVRs (one for each TV). I had two R15s, and that second was just a backup of the first - allowing me to watch stuff on that second TV if the first was being used. I ended up just setting up the same stinking recordings on both TVs - the dual maintenance was a royal pain in the butt to me. If we pegged this DVR then I would switch over to getting a second DVR. But we don't. We generally keep it at around 60% full.

One final point - Verizon just finished up with an RFP (request for proposal, for those not familiar with contract negotiations) for a new STB. They're looking to ditch the current set of motorola boxes.

Also, with fios, I get VOD. No, it's not HD yet (that's coming soon), but with the movie pack I get access to a boatload of movies on VOD - all without taking up space on my DVR.

But again, this is based on MY experience. If you find yourself setting up 50 very active series, then I'd agree that this box would be too light for that type of heavy-duty use. If you're a standard user (like me) it's more than adequate. I've yet to hit a space crunch on this DVR. Just for what its worth.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I wanted to throw one more thing out there. Yeah, I know this is a DirecTV forum, but since I'm warmed up and all  First off, I'm not trying to slam DirecTV - I hope I don't come across that way. I think it's a great service, and if you're a sports nut it's the only way to go.

That being said, I wanted to address the issue of future expaning of programming. I was a little concerned about this at first. DirecTV was doing all this heavy advertizing for future HD, and Verizon was doing none. Verizon keeps those changes really close to the vest, and doesn't even advertize after the fact! My fears evaporated, however, since I've been a customer. I signed up in April, and since then they've made the following expansions in programming:

- Move Fox Soccer Network from sports tier to base tier (a nice for me).
- Added BBC World and The Word network (religious channel).
- Added 47, yes 47, MTV music channels (known as Urge), to go along with the 47 MusicChoice stations, bringing their total of music stations up to 94 (this change is in process of rolling out, and we've yet to get it, although most markets currently have it).
- Added 3 HD channels - Food Network, HGTV, Lifetime Movie Network (who knew they were in HD).

Add to that the fact that they're rolling out their new s/w, and it's been a very busy summer for Verizon. Given all that, I have no doubt that they're going to keep up with other TV providers in terms of HD. The ONLY area where I see them lacking - subscription sports packs (e.g. MLB EI). They have none. Personally, not an issue for me.

As for the differences in PQ - I know some have said there are no differences between DirecTV and FiOS. And granted, I never had HD through DirecTV, but just the SD alone tells me that that's not correct. The PQ on my Sony 27" SDTV is absolutely surreal (which I had an R15 hooked to, so I'm drawing a direct comparison). It was really good with DirecTV (causing folks to comment that it looked better than their HD setups), but FiOS is just better - it's sharper, and much more life-like. I found it hard to believe, and if I hadn't seen it I would be dubious too.

I noticed the difference at my gym, of all places. They use Dish Network for their TVs. I always though the PQ on their TVs was really good - on par with what I have here at home. A few weeks ago, while on one elliptical machine, I noticed something - the PQ looked, well, grainy. On all their TVs. Every time I go back, I see the same thing. I wondered what changed. Then it hit me - my setup has changed, and that's what I'm comparing it to.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

So let me see if I can sum this up:

A service that's sporadically available in 6 states(?) MAY or MAY NOT:
Get better hardware down the road
Get more HD
Cost more or less than other services
have SD PQ better than other services

It definitely:
has fiber lines
no sports to speak of
crappy Motorola hardware
not available to most of the country

Is that about right?


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

For a lot of us Sunday Ticket is a must. Everything else is just everything else.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Redlinetire said:


> So let me see if I can sum this up:
> 
> A service that's sporadically available in 6 states(?) MAY or MAY NOT:
> Get better hardware down the road
> ...


Uh... no. The availability is definitely an issue, but your other nits are not correct:

- They've already added HD channels, and I'm sure they'll continue to do so (they've already stated that HD is a priority for them and the PQ associated with their HD is really indicative of that. Just because they haven't advertized channels they're adding like DirecTV doesn't mean that they won't - you totally missed what I was saying about what they did this summer - that's indicative of the fact that they have no issues with expanding their lineup).

- The cost more or less? Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you say that about ANY service? Depends on what you want. I'm saving ALOT over my old DirecTV setup. I'll be the first to admit that some folks won't save money. So? If you have 14 DVRs, then yeah, DirecTV will be cheaper. But to say that this is a nit of ONLY fios is incorrect. It's the same of ANY such company. They all have different pricing structures.

- As for the PQ, I never said anything about HD in terms of comparison because I couldn't. I never had HD service outside of fios. All I can say is that the HD is simply jaw-dropping. On par with OTA. No evidence of any compression artifacts at all. I could only directly compare the SD PQ.

- As for the "crappy" hardware. What on earth are you talking about? Did you read my other posts? Yeah, it doesn't have the functionality of DirecTV's boxes, but it also doesn't have the PROBLEMS or LIMITATIONS of their boxes either. My DVR is FAST and rock solid. Not something that I could have said about either of my R15s (although I did like the R15s, warts and all, and I would love to see some of their functionality incorporated into these boxes). But that's a function of the s/w, not the hardware. And they are rolling out new, uber-cool, s/w. As for the hardware, the ONLY nit I have is on the size of the harddrive.

- As for the MAY have better hardware? Um, are you familiar with what an RFP is? It says "I want this done, and I'm looking for bids - here are my requirements, now tell me what you come up with and how much it's going to cost." There's no "may" about this. The only issue is "when" and "who". Also that contract is going to be, from what I understand, the biggest such contract ever awarded. Granted, it's not a given that the hardware WILL be better... but come on? You really mean they plan to spend millions on a new box to make it worse than what they have? And the fact that they're spending so much on their new s/w, to me, indicates that they take usability a priority.

- You also forgot to include: more HD and SD channels than most providers, with virtually unlimited capacity for expansion. You forgot that part.

Like I said, my goal is NOT to slam DirecTV. I was a very happy customer for 5 years, but you're seriously misrepresenting what I wrote.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

joed32 said:


> For a lot of us Sunday Ticket is a must. Everything else is just everything else.


Agreed - and it's one of the first things I tell folks looking to switch from DirecTV to FiOS. "If you're a sports nut, then FiOS isn't for you." Although I always temper that. I now get CSN Philly - in both SD and HD - so if you want general sports channels, with a local flavor, and you're in this area, the FiOS is something you DO want to look at. If you're into the sports packs... well, I don't think Verizon will be adding them anytime soon.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

jpl said:


> Like I said, my goal is NOT to slam DirecTV. I was a very happy customer for 5 years, but you're seriously misrepresenting what I wrote.


Uhhh...I wasn't representing what _you_ wrote. I was summing up what - to me - the thrust of the entire thread was. 

But I do disagree with your first statement. Your goal is most clearly to slam DirecTV. Your defensiveness at my random post demonstrates that.

But it's a free forum. Post away!


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Redlinetire said:


> Uhhh...I wasn't representing what _you_ wrote. I was summing up what - to me - the thrust of the entire thread was.
> 
> But I do disagree with your first statement. Your goal is most clearly to slam DirecTV. Your defensiveness at my random post demonstrates that.
> 
> But it's a free forum. Post away!


What have I written to indicate that I'm slamming DirecTV? I said repeatedly that I was a very happy DirecTV customer for 5 years. I loved my DirecTV service. The ONLY reason I looked was because I wanted HD service and DirecTV wanted $300 for their DVR, which they wouldn't budge on. Yeah, I'm a happy fios customer, but so what? Does that mean I hate DirecTV? That I'm trying to slam them by making a direct comparison? I continue to recommend DirecTV to folks who hate Comcast. It's a great service. Read some of my other posts on here, and you'll see plenty of evidence of this.

That's one reason I was a little reticent of posting on this thread. There are some that get a little sensitive about these types of comparisons (I agree there is defensiveness going on here... but it's not from me - if my last post came across that way it was only because I was trying to counter what I thought was a misrepresentation of what I stated - while fios has its problems, to not give verizon their due is dishonest - I'm very honest when it comes to making these comparisons - to state that they have more SD and HD currently available than most providers, including DirecTV, is unarguably true... am I slamming DirecTV if I state that? And if I note their future expandability?). Which is why I generally IM folks that ask about fios, directly. I didn't in this case because multiple people asked about a comparison of the DVRs.

And for the record, I do think you were misrepresenting what I wrote to some extent. You made assessments of the h/w that I never put out there, e.g. (that it's crappy - I've given every indication that it's anything but). You also conveniently left out many of the other pros that I included with the service. Also, in terms of availability - maybe someone else posted that it's only available in 6 states... but it wasn't me (although, to be honest, I haven't seen that written here at all). I'll be the first to admit that their availability is limited. Again - so? How, in any way, does that have to do with the point of this thread? The OP has fios TV available and was asking about a comparison of the DVRs. Besides, while they are limited in where they are available, it's more than 6 states - it's close to double that right now. Overall, not bad considering they've only been doing this for about 2 years now, and given fiber's cost. And if you look at their roll-out plan they're going to be available to several million households in the next couple years.

For the record - I AM NOT SLAMMING DIRECTV! I really loved their service, and that hasn't changed. I'm sorry if giving an honest assessment comparing them to fios bugs you, but there's really nothing I can do about that.


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## AllieVi (Apr 10, 2002)

Redlinetire said:


> ... Your goal is most clearly to slam DirecTV. ...


I didn't get that impression. JPL seems to be giving an honest assessment of his experiences, some favorable and some not about each service.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

AllieVi said:


> I didn't get that impression. JPL seems to be giving an honest assessment of his experiences, some favorable and some not about each service.


Thanks for that. I apologize, btw, if I went overboard in some previous posts. Like I've said a thousand times, DirecTV is a great service. For many it's exactly the right service. Heck it wasn't all that long ago (you can see that from some of my posts in other threads) where I said I wouldn't switch to fios - and based on my assessment at the time, it was the right decision. What caused that to change is really simple - HD. That was the driver - but since then I've discovered other things that I really like. And yes, there are nits apleanty about fios (although I've never been plagued with it, their billing system is mind-blowing in how many problems it has).

I know how agonizing the decision to switch away from a service you really like can be. Yes, I'm a very happy fios customer - but that doesn't mean that I hate directv. I really don't. it's one reason I keep coming back to this forum. I like to keep tabs on what's going on with directv - and dbstalk is the best place for that - bar none.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

No worries. It wasn't fair of me to question your motives. I barely understand my own sometimes. :blush:

And I know the board appreciates your insights. That's why we're all here. If there was a perfect service, there wouldn't be a need for a forum!


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Redlinetire said:


> No worries. It wasn't fair of me to question your motives. I barely understand my own sometimes. :blush:
> 
> And I know the board appreciates your insights. That's why we're all here. If there was a perfect service, there wouldn't be a need for a forum!


That's very nice of you to say. I really didn't mean to explode like that


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

jpl said:


> You're right - the hard drive is too small in my opinion. I recorded one episode of Planet Earth on Discovery HD and it took nearly 20 GB of space.


You miscalculated. The MOST a 19.3Mbps ATSC signal would take up is roughly 8.8 Gig - and DiscoveryHD broadcasts BELOW 19.3Mbps. Furthermore the Planet Earth Episodes were less than 60 minutes, so all told couldn't have used more than 6 - 7 Gig tops.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Redlinetire said:


> So let me see if I can sum this up:
> 
> A service that's sporadically available in 6 states(?) MAY or MAY NOT:
> Get better hardware down the road
> ...


Well, no we've concluded it cost less than D*.

and then you could say about D*,

A service that's sporadically available in 50 states depending on your exposure to the Southern Sky and if it is raining, which MAY or MAY NOT:
Get better hardware down the road
May get more HD, but at lower resolutions than fios or cable, or even E*.
Cost more than other services
has the worst SD PQ of any digital service.

Yes, that about sums it up.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Well, no we've concluded it cost less than D*.
> 
> and then you could say about D*,
> 
> ...


Boy you are biased. I have had D* for 3 years and my SD PQ is better than cable (Comcast here sucks). To FIOS I cannot compare (again only avaialbe to very few customers right now compared to cable and satellite). What I do know is that with the local HD channels from D* in Seattle (Mpeg 4 by the way, and no HD lite with those channels) are superb looking. If the new national HD channels measure up to the current local HD channels (again Mpeg 4) then FIOS will have a competitors in HD quality (I will concede that point).

And I live in the north west by the way, where get something resembling rain about half the year and I have little to no rain fade. With the leasing system D* has put in place customers get upgrades for free (shipping not included). If you had a bad experience with D*, it happens to us all. I would like FIOS except it offers very very little in terms of the sports packages which D* beats all competitors on. By the way DIRECTV on demand launches in late September. So D* is getting there. The moto boxes do suck and the HR20 (current HD-DVR) from D* has the ability to add recording capacity via an E-sata external hard drive. So can your Motorola POS do that? And then if have to go to an owned Tivo S3 or TIVO HD box you own it and what ever happens to it after a manufacturer's warranty is your problem. Plus D* receivers have OTA tuners. QAM tuners are only good for unencrypted HD channels on cable which are going away from what I hear from my friends in the cable industry.

Overall I pay $75 for all my service from D*. The equivilent package on FIOS I have to pay 42 for the base package, 13 for a DVR, 13 for the movie package and 16 for HBO which comes out to 84 (no taxes and the taxes for FIOS are similar to cable so let say 6 a month in taxes). Total for FIOS service would be roughly 90 a month, with D* I get pay 75 for the same (no similar, but same) services. Not that I am saying FIOS is worse, but a few of my arguments are pretty compelling. Plus I found out FIOS does not offer any sports packages period!!! I need MLB Extra Innings and NFL Sunday Ticket. Not on FIOS.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

convem24 said:


> Boy you are biased. I have had D* for 3 years and my SD PQ is better than cable (Comcast here sucks). To FIOS I cannot compare (again only avaialbe to very few customers right now compared to cable and satellite). What I do know is that with the local HD channels from D* in Seattle (Mpeg 4 by the way, and no HD lite with those channels) are superb looking. If the new national HD channels measure up to the current local HD channels (again Mpeg 4) then FIOS will have a competitors in HD quality (I will concede that point).
> 
> And I live in the north west by the way, where get something resembling rain about half the year and I have little to no rain fade. With the leasing system D* has put in place customers get upgrades for free (shipping not included). If you had a bad experience with D*, it happens to us all. I would like FIOS except it offers very very little in terms of the sports packages which D* beats all competitors on. By the way DIRECTV on demand launches in late September. So D* is getting there. The moto boxes do suck and the HR20 (current HD-DVR) from D* has the ability to add recording capacity via an E-sata external hard drive. So can your Motorola POS do that? And then if have to go to an owned Tivo S3 or TIVO HD box you own it and what ever happens to it after a manufacturer's warranty is your problem. Plus D* receivers have OTA tuners. QAM tuners are only good for unencrypted HD channels on cable which are going away from what I hear from my friends in the cable industry.
> 
> Overall I pay $75 for all my service from D*. The equivilent package on FIOS I have to pay 42 for the base package, 13 for a DVR, 13 for the movie package and 16 for HBO which comes out to 84 (no taxes and the taxes for FIOS are similar to cable so let say 6 a month in taxes). Total for FIOS service would be roughly 90 a month, with D* I get pay 75 for the same (no similar, but same) services. Not that I am saying FIOS is worse, but a few of my arguments are pretty compelling. Plus I found out FIOS does not offer any sports packages period!!! I need MLB Extra Innings and NFL Sunday Ticket. Not on FIOS.


As I stated - with digital - not analog - the SD on D* is the worst of all providers - and its at the lowest resolution 480x480 - or SD-LITE. All other providers have more lines of resolution.

If the truth makes me biased, so be it. I have had no bad experience with D* - but that doesn't change simple facts.

ALL MPEG4 LIL are 1280x1080 or 720x1080 - HDLITE - no matter what you think and there is no reason to believe the MPEG4 HD will be any different.

If you don't believe it, measure the bandwidth on the outputs of the H20 or HR20 vs OTA. There isn't enough bandwidth to allow anything over 1280 lines via D*.

And btw, light rain doesnt blow out the signal - heavy rain does. I can show you numerous posts on dbstalk where many have lost the signal in rain storms - worse than they do with Ku as Ka is 3x more sensitive to rain fade.

And finally, unlimited recording capacity is available with FIOS if you have the right equipment.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> As I stated - with digital - not analog - the SD on D* is the worst of all providers - and its at the lowest resolution 480x480 - or SD-LITE. All other providers have more lines of resolution.
> 
> If the truth makes me biased, so be it. I have had no bad experience with D* - but that doesn't change simple facts.
> 
> ...


Mpeg4 LIL BTW are not down converted, I have OTA and they look very very similar, I can tell the difference between full and lite BTW (I admitted in my previous post that the current national HD channels are suspect). And I live in the Northwest where we don't get torrential rains. It is a light rain (even if you can call it rain, haha). And to your equipment issue you still have to pay for Tivo S3 ($800) or Tivo HD ($300) so at that point D* and Fios are the same or similar costs (which under D* is a single time cost, no more of this, "you have to pay more to get new equipment BS". The new Mpeg 4 should give D* enough bandwidth not to down rez. Again I am a little skeptical still but to keep customers you have to make them happy. My KU signal (which is what is tranmitting the Mpeg 4 product ) does not rain fade at all out in Seattle. And with other posts if the dish was not optimized on install (which I think about 20% of AU9 and AT9s need readjustments because installers who set them up last year did them incorrectly). Again I advocate for what customers want. Plus you have not addressed the lack of sports packages on FIOS. Any comment on that?


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## cdizzy (Jul 29, 2007)

I would put a thought in to switching but FIOS TV is not offered in my area.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

convem24 said:


> Mpeg4 LIL BTW are not down converted, I have OTA and they look very very similar, I can tell the difference between full and lite BTW (I admitted in my previous post that the current national HD channels are suspect). And I live in the Northwest where we don't get torrential rains. It is a light rain (even if you can call it rain, haha). And to your equipment issue you still have to pay for Tivo S3 ($800) or Tivo HD ($300) so at that point D* and Fios are the same or similar costs (which under D* is a single time cost, no more of this, "you have to pay more to get new equipment BS". The new Mpeg 4 should give D* enough bandwidth not to down rez. Again I am a little skeptical still but to keep customers you have to make them happy. My KU signal (which is what is tranmitting the Mpeg 4 product ) does not rain fade at all out in Seattle. And with other posts if the dish was not optimized on install (which I think about 20% of AU9 and AT9s need readjustments because installers who set them up last year did them incorrectly). Again I advocate for what customers want. Plus you have not addressed the lack of sports packages on FIOS. Any comment on that?


I am sorry you cannot tell the difference, but I have measured it in 5 different markets (including Seattle) - as did Bob Seidel in NY (the head of engineering at CBS Network) and in every instance it is downconverted to HD-LITE. Furthermore, in the places where I was involved, we put up specially designed test patterns overnight and looked at them OTA and via D* and E* on the same IRD - and say what you want, they are HD-LITE.

You can speculate all you want, but right now you do not even know what is currently happening - so please - don't speculate as to what might happen - I can speculate that FIOS will add every HD channel out there as well - but that doesn't make it true. Likewise, I am not going to speculate what you can and cannot see on your set. As has been noted by the CTO of D*, they deliver a signal in excess of what HDTV's are capable of (note MOST....not all). All one has to do is look at a unit that can do full resolution and immediately one can see HD-LITE - as can be seen by many of those with lower quality sets.

As for equipment, again, clearly, you don't know what I have or how its done - seems you need to do more homework.

As for rain, I've already addressed the issue. I have 100 on my key Ka transponders. I guess they aren't aligned good enough for you 

Again, reality - not speculation. Just because myself and others have seen things that you have not (like what's really going on with the HD-LIL, that doesn't mean its not there and like the others - you just don't know it).

As for Sports Packages, any FIOS sub can see the local teams on the local OTA channels in better resolution and quality than you can see with D*.

Only 25% of America cares about Sports - (ESPN puts it at half that) and only roughly 2.5%of those have a high passion for anything except their local teams. Thus FIOS works great for 99% of the people in the area where it is available.

Sorry, those are the facts.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> You miscalculated. The MOST a 19.3Mbps ATSC signal would take up is roughly 8.8 Gig - and DiscoveryHD broadcasts BELOW 19.3Mbps. Furthermore the Planet Earth Episodes were less than 60 minutes, so all told couldn't have used more than 6 - 7 Gig tops.


You know what, I think you're right on that. I believe I was confusing it with a movie I recorded in HD. Either that or my math really sucks - at this point it's a toss-up  Either way, the HD really sucks down space on this DVR. Again, it's my one nit with the hardware.

There are other nits I have with the service, but that's another show. And the old IPG s/w, I would agree is somwhat clunky and less refined than the R15 interface. Although I do think it's laid out a bit better. I'm reserving judgement on the interface, overall, though, until I get Verizon's new IMG (integrated media guide) s/w, which has started rolling out, and which we're supposed to get at the end of August. I understand that much of that clunkiness is gone - but we'll see.

Edit - Oh, one correction on this. Planet Earth isn't less than 60 minutes long. Even if it is, the DVR is STILL recording 60 minutes per episode. Actually more with this dvr. This dvr buffers every recording - starting 1 minute early, and ending 2 monutes after the end of the show. My recordings of Planet Earth were 63 minutes as a result.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

convem24 said:


> Boy you are biased. I have had D* for 3 years and my SD PQ is better than cable (Comcast here sucks). To FIOS I cannot compare (again only avaialbe to very few customers right now compared to cable and satellite). What I do know is that with the local HD channels from D* in Seattle (Mpeg 4 by the way, and no HD lite with those channels) are superb looking. If the new national HD channels measure up to the current local HD channels (again Mpeg 4) then FIOS will have a competitors in HD quality (I will concede that point).
> 
> And I live in the north west by the way, where get something resembling rain about half the year and I have little to no rain fade. With the leasing system D* has put in place customers get upgrades for free (shipping not included). If you had a bad experience with D*, it happens to us all. I would like FIOS except it offers very very little in terms of the sports packages which D* beats all competitors on. By the way DIRECTV on demand launches in late September. So D* is getting there. The moto boxes do suck and the HR20 (current HD-DVR) from D* has the ability to add recording capacity via an E-sata external hard drive. So can your Motorola POS do that? And then if have to go to an owned Tivo S3 or TIVO HD box you own it and what ever happens to it after a manufacturer's warranty is your problem. Plus D* receivers have OTA tuners. QAM tuners are only good for unencrypted HD channels on cable which are going away from what I hear from my friends in the cable industry.
> 
> Overall I pay $75 for all my service from D*. The equivilent package on FIOS I have to pay 42 for the base package, 13 for a DVR, 13 for the movie package and 16 for HBO which comes out to 84 (no taxes and the taxes for FIOS are similar to cable so let say 6 a month in taxes). Total for FIOS service would be roughly 90 a month, with D* I get pay 75 for the same (no similar, but same) services. Not that I am saying FIOS is worse, but a few of my arguments are pretty compelling. Plus I found out FIOS does not offer any sports packages period!!! I need MLB Extra Innings and NFL Sunday Ticket. Not on FIOS.


I do agree with much of this. Can't speak to HD, but Comcast analog SD sucks around here. Their digital, from what I've seen, is better, but I never had that either. Plus their prices are through the roof. My directv sd was really nice - I was serious when I said that someone told me it looked better than his hd - and he was right.

From my experience, though, fios does edge out directv in sd PQ. Didn't think it was possible, but it is.

As for the price, you're correct to include franchise fees... and the amount can vary greatly, depending on where you live. All my fees (taxes & franchise) come out to less than $4/month. Overall, about $1.50 more than I was paying w/ directv (you do still pay taxes with directv - leased equipment does get taxed).

One correction for you, though. The HD DVR that Verizon uses is now $16/month - they're adding an SD DVR for $13/month. But you also need to consider triple play discounts with fios, which can be significant.

Overall, their pricing structures are really different. I think the best way to compare is to look at the setup you have, and figure out what an equivalent package would cost with fios. When I was sd only, directv was actually cheaper, but when I looked to go hd, fios got a very real edge.

One other advantage that fios does have, however (and I didn't realize how much I missed this when I was with directv) - local access. You get local forecasts on TWC, along with Weahterscan Local, and local PEG (public, education, government - aka local access channels). I didn't care about the PEGs when I was with comcast. I do now - my kids' school has a tv studio, and it bothered me to no end that I couldn't watch my daughter broadcast the news. I'm still waiting for verizon to activate the PEGs in this area, but I hope they have that done before the school year starts.

Again, this if from MY perspective of things. We all have things that are important to us. It's those things that drive decisions of what we would like to subscribe to. For example, I never cared about NFL ST, but for others it's a show-stopper. I can respect that.

Edit - one more correction on your price calculation - FiOS gives you a discount if you combine HBO with the movie pack. They were offering that for a total of $20/month for a while. Even without that promo, though, you do still get a big discount by having both (not sure what it is since I don't have HBO). One other thing to consider with this, though. With fios, you get more premium channels. I believe they carry everything that the premiums offer - all of the HBO channels, all of the Starz, all of Showtime... et. al.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

jpl said:


> Edit - Oh, one correction on this. Planet Earth isn't less than 60 minutes long. Even if it is, the DVR is STILL recording 60 minutes per episode. Actually more with this dvr. This dvr buffers every recording - starting 1 minute early, and ending 2 monutes after the end of the show. My recordings of Planet Earth were 63 minutes as a result.


After the first showing, I saw they were running roughly 10-14 minutes less than an hour and set my timers accordingly as they were repeated so often to conserve space on the DVR. If something will be on repeatedly, its something that I will typically do to conserve space - as you don't need the junk after it.



jpl said:


> Edit - one more correction on your price calculation - FiOS gives you a discount if you combine HBO with the movie pack. They were offering that for a total of $20/month for a while. Even without that promo, though, you do still get a big discount by having both (not sure what it is since I don't have HBO). One other thing to consider with this, though. With fios, you get more premium channels. I believe they carry everything that the premiums offer - all of the HBO channels, all of the Starz, all of Showtime... et. al.


Yes, I have yet to meet the fool that has FIOS for their TV and does not use them for their internet service.....and with rates as low as $33 per service, it's impossible to beat.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I am sorry you cannot tell the difference, but I have measured it in 5 different markets (including Seattle) - as did Bob Seidel in NY (the head of engineering at CBS Network) and in every instance it is downconverted to HD-LITE. Furthermore, in the places where I was involved, we put up specially designed test patterns overnight and looked at them OTA and via D* and E* on the same IRD - and say what you want, they are HD-LITE.
> 
> You can speculate all you want, but right now you do not even know what is currently happening - so please - don't speculate as to what might happen - I can speculate that FIOS will add every HD channel out there as well - but that doesn't make it true. Likewise, I am not going to speculate what you can and cannot see on your set. As has been noted by the CTO of D*, they deliver a signal in excess of what HDTV's are capable of (note MOST....not all). All one has to do is look at a unit that can do full resolution and immediately one can see HD-LITE - as can be seen by many of those with lower quality sets.
> 
> ...


Two questions:

First I believe more than 25% of customers care about sports. If you can prove to me that you know for a fact that 25% of customers care about sports that I will leave it at that. But there are more that care.

Second you mentioned local sports broadcasts - about 60% (this comes from industry information) of sports fans who live in an area are not fans of local teams. D* has more sports programming subscribers than anyone else.

Again I believe Fios is better than Cable, but again I mention the lack of availablity to the general consumer. Only Verizon will probably be successful with a true FIOS system in the telco industry. Qwest, [email protected], Bell South, etc are doing hybrid networks (last mile will be copper). I think long term it will be interesting but I believe (and subscriber number bear this out) that both cable and satellite will survive.

And I think I know who you are. You have a similar tone to other message boards I frequent.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

jpl said:


> Edit - one more correction on your price calculation - FiOS gives you a discount if you combine HBO with the movie pack. They were offering that for a total of $20/month for a while. Even without that promo, though, you do still get a big discount by having both (not sure what it is since I don't have HBO). One other thing to consider with this, though. With fios, you get more premium channels. I believe they carry everything that the premiums offer - all of the HBO channels, all of the Starz, all of Showtime... et. al.


I actually looked up the pricing, you get a discount when you buy the sports and movie pack together, not HBO and Cinemax, you get a separate deal with buying both of those together. I was putting a personal comparison of why I would not switch (I get a slightly better price on D* versus FIOS, plus FIOS will never be available in my area, I live in Qwest service area and they are doing the same thing as [email protected] is doing which is going to be similar to U-verse).

Here is my break down
Total Choice Plus $50
HBO $13
Starz $11
DVR service (household) $6
Total $80 - $5 Qwest discount 
plus NFL Sunday Ticket (cannot get anywhere but D*)

FIOS equivilent
Base package $42
HBO $16
Starz $12
DVR $12
Total $82
Taxes $6
Total $88


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

jpl said:


> Again, this if from MY perspective of things. We all have things that are important to us. It's those things that drive decisions of what we would like to subscribe to. For example, I never cared about NFL ST, but for others it's a show-stopper. I can respect that.


I totally agree with you. That is why I am on D* (besides the fact that Comcast decided to price themselves uncompetitively here in the North West). I go with service that offers me something I want and can have. What frustrates me with HDTVFanatic is that he believe all issues should be technical. I deal with consumers a lot and typically they want a few things, a better deal, more channels and simple. Plus the service has to be available. Most consumers change very slowly.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Because the PQ is not a slight difference - its a major difference.


In YOUR opinion.

I don't recall reading anyone else state that opinion here (and still choose the lesser PQ).

You still didn't answer my question:



spartanstew said:


> So, if one had slightly better PQ (for this discussion will define slightly as almost indistinguishable for the vast majority of programming), but a DVR that never recorded properly or a DVR that didn't have key features you needed, you'd go with them anyway? I don't think so.


That's the situation most that have discussed it are in. Either slightly better PQ with one or the other or no difference in PQ.

Is it becoming any clearer to you yet?


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> I am sorry you cannot tell the difference, but I have measured it in 5 different markets (including Seattle) - as did Bob Seidel in NY (the head of engineering at CBS Network) and in every instance it is downconverted to HD-LITE. Furthermore, in the places where I was involved, we put up specially designed test patterns overnight and looked at them OTA and via D* and E* on the same IRD - and say what you want, they are HD-LITE.
> 
> You can speculate all you want, but right now you do not even know what is currently happening - so please - don't speculate as to what might happen - I can speculate that FIOS will add every HD channel out there as well - but that doesn't make it true. Likewise, I am not going to speculate what you can and cannot see on your set. As has been noted by the CTO of D*, they deliver a signal in excess of what HDTV's are capable of (note MOST....not all). All one has to do is look at a unit that can do full resolution and immediately one can see HD-LITE - as can be seen by many of those with lower quality sets.
> 
> ...


It's the people who love their own teams but don't live in that market who will spend whatever it takes to see them. That's what drives Sunday Ticket. Plus fantasy football. I don't know what percentage of D* subscribers have ST, but I know what percentage of all of the other services have it.


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## dtv757 (Jun 4, 2006)

Fios TV...

the new FIos software was launched in most parts of the US which looks cool just looking at this guide make me want to switch lol

www.VERIZONFIOS.COM/IMG

Vz has ON-DEMAND ... i wish D* would launch on-demand, but with D* its only available on the HR20, with FiOS its on all recievers SD, HD, HD-DVR/HM-DVR.

for those movie lovers the Vz Movie package is nice for only $12.99 (starz, SHO and TMC, about 45 ch's plus HD and PLUS VOD) http://www22.verizon.com/content/fiostv/channel+lineup/channel+lineup.htm#Premium

great bundle deals going on right now 
unlimited calling with 3 features
5/2 data (10/2 in some states)
tv (before STB's, or premiums)
$99 monthly

unlimited calling with 3 features
15/2 (20/5 in some states)
TV (before stb's and premiums)
109 monthly

interactive features with widets, live weather and traffic, possibly sports scores all at the bottom of the screen with one touch on a button.

... FiOS PQ is uncompressed

um... the only thing that would stop me from ordering FIOS TV would be:
caller id on TV
NFL ST
univision, telefutura, telemundo (which are not available in my market but available in other Fios markets)


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> In YOUR opinion.
> 
> I don't recall reading anyone else state that opinion here (and still choose the lesser PQ).
> 
> ...


Spartan - I totally agree but like HDTVfanactic is stating he is getting what he wants from FIOS. I have D* for certain reasons (It has NFL ST and better PQ than Comcast in the Northwest). I think DVR is more important to me. The HR20 is expandable which is a plus for me. VOD means nothing to me even though when D* launches their VOD that will be a definite positive. Again I think D* can improve their PQ and local HD channels in the Seattle market look fantastic currently (I have OTA and HD locals which look very similar).


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

convem24 said:


> Two questions:
> 
> First I believe more than 25% of customers care about sports. If you can prove to me that you know for a fact that 25% of customers care about sports that I will leave it at that. But there are more that care.


We have done research for years for TV Newscasts and its never more than 25%. Why do you think Sports is last in the news with very little time given it?

ESPN released information that was widely reported last year that only 11% of America ever tuned it in.



convem24 said:


> Second you mentioned local sports broadcasts - about 60% (this comes from industry information) of sports fans who live in an area are not fans of local teams. D* has more sports programming subscribers than anyone else.


Not even close to correct.



convem24 said:


> Again I believe Fios is better than Cable, but again I mention the lack of availablity to the general consumer. Only Verizon will probably be successful with a true FIOS system in the telco industry. Qwest, [email protected], Bell South, etc are doing hybrid networks (last mile will be copper). I think long term it will be interesting but I believe (and subscriber number bear this out) that both cable and satellite will survive.
> 
> And I think I know who you are. You have a similar tone to other message boards I frequent.


lol....everywhere I post I post under this nick....so lots of luck with that. Just look for the nick and that is me.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

convem24 said:


> I actually looked up the pricing, you get a discount when you buy the sports and movie pack together, not HBO and Cinemax, you get a separate deal with buying both of those together. I was putting a personal comparison of why I would not switch (I get a slightly better price on D* versus FIOS, plus FIOS will never be available in my area, I live in Qwest service area and they are doing the same thing as [email protected] is doing which is going to be similar to U-verse).
> 
> Here is my break down
> Total Choice Plus $50
> ...


I forgot to mention - Verizon's web site totally sucks. The pricing on there isn't the latest -- nothing on there is. While it has improved to some extent, it still leaves much to be desired. They were running a combo deal between the movie pack and hbo for a while. It's possible they're no longer running it, or just that they never updated it on their website (and I believe this was separate from the $20 combo deal that they were running for a short time). The price of the DVR that you're listing is case in point. It's been $16/month since July 13th (this caused much contraversy over at a fios forum with some folks who signed up after the 13th). Probably the best way to get the real pricing is by calling. Also, realize that some pricing (specifically, many of these package deals) vary by state.

Also one other thing to realize, that Starz price you list is for more than just Starz (I realize that's all you care about, or that's equivalent to what you have now, which is why you're comparing it this way... which is totally fine - you're just trying to figure out what the equivalent package would be with fios) - just putting this out there for general info - that movie pack also include showtime, the movie channel, flix, sundance and ifc (which directv carries on the package formerly known as total choice).

Finally, you hit on something that I did. When I was a directv customer, I had TC+ with 2 DVRs. When I priced out FiOS compared to that, FiOS came in a few bucks more per month ($63 for DirecTV, $68 for FiOS). When I went HD, though, that's when I saw things swing in fios's favor - my DirecTV bill would have gone up to $75 (I would have been subject to new pricing by switching at that point), while my bill with fios was still at $68/month (since HD is included in their premier package). Add to that triple play discounts, and I saw my bill really take a nose-dive.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

convem24 said:


> Spartan - I totally agree but like HDTVfanactic is stating he is getting what he wants from FIOS. I have D* for certain reasons (It has NFL ST and better PQ than Comcast in the Northwest). I think DVR is more important to me. The HR20 is expandable which is a plus for me. VOD means nothing to me even though when D* launches their VOD that will be a definite positive. Again I think D* can improve their PQ and local HD channels in the Seattle market look fantastic currently (I have OTA and HD locals which look very similar).


I'll throw one more personal experience out at you. When I was a directv customer, my opinion of VOD was exactly the same as yours - who cares about VOD? It's limited - it doesn't have EVERYTHING on it. I can record what I want with a DVR... And then I got access to VOD. Realize too that Verizon's VOD is still imature compared to say Comcast. For example, Comcast offers some network shows on VOD, Verizon doesn't.... Comcast offers free older movies, and Verizon doesn't (although they started running deals where you can get new releases of a couple movies for free some nights of the week - but given Verizon's lack of advertizing, you'd never know that you could catch Casino Royale for free)... and Comcast currently offers HD VOD, and Verizon doesn't yet (they're supposed to by the end of the year - I can get into WHY they don't offer it, if anyone's interested, and what I've heard their proposed solution is).

Still, even with all those limitations, I've become a big fan of VOD. I can understand why DirecTV is steaming ahead with it, even one that's only available to folks with an HR20 and with a high-speed internet connection. It's also the main reason I won't switch over to a tivo dvr. I really don't want to lose VOD. Not so much for me... but my kids would stage an insurrection. The only reason I don't use it more is because they don't have HD VOD yet. When looking for movies to watch on, say, Starz, I'm going to first look for when the movie is showing on Starz HD. If it's there, I'll record it (I'd rather catch it in HD). If it's not, then I will watch it on VOD, if available there (and the number of movies available via the movie pack on VOD is pretty impressive - both older and newer movies).

Ok - real quick - here's why Verizon is having issues with HD VOD. Most of their TV service gets fed through a coax going directly to your TV's STB. Some of the video service, however, doesn't go through that way. Things like guide data, VOD, and widgets all go through the IP portion of the light spectrum. That data goes to your router, and from your router gets fed into your TV's network (the router is connected to the tv splitter that they install). In one respect, this is a great design - it frees up that TV coax to devote its entire spectrum to TV programming. In another respect it could be problematic. Since HD takes so much bandwidth to transmit, and since these routers are designed to give precendence to the video feeds for the TV, running HD VOD was killing everyone's internet speed. As to a possible solution - one that I've heard I'm a-ok with. Verizon was going to increase everyone's internet speed to compensate. That's one that I'd heard. Don't know how true it is.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Why do you think Sports is last in the news with very little time given it?


A while back I saw an article in the local news paper about sports on local newscasts. It stated that the reason their is very little of it, is because that most people that are really interested in sports news use any of the ESPN or local RSNs, to get their sports news.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

There might be more veracity to my understanding of Verizon's solution for HD VOD than I thought. Apparently (according to folks on another forum), Verizon reps are contacting customers (one guy actually had a knock on his door) to let them know that we'll be getting 6 new channels soon (including a couple HD), and that Verizon would be doubling everyone's internet speed in the coming weeks. That's in line with what I'd heard they were going to do. Whether that's the solution or not remains to be seen.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

It doesn't matter how great FIOS services might be, it is not available where I live, and for the most part the vast majority of the country.


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## Chuck W (Mar 26, 2002)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Why do you think Sports is last in the news with very little time given it?


:lol: Umm, weather is given just about the same time and is also last or 2nd to last, yet just about EVERYONE tunes in to see their local weather and hence why it is last... so you will hopefully stick thru the whole broadcast first, to see the weather.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

MikeR7 said:


> It doesn't matter how great FIOS services might be, it is not available where I live, and for the most part the vast majority of the country.


I agree with you, but the point of this thread is to make comparisons between fios and directv.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> In YOUR opinion.
> 
> I don't recall reading anyone else state that opinion here (and still choose the lesser PQ).
> 
> ...


Obviously clear is a word you don't understand and have a problem seeing with your HDTV.

Virtually everyone who has compared FIOS and D* has said FIOS is better - in fact, I cannot recall the fool who said D* was better after comparing the two.

Would I go with a unit that missed reservations if that was the only factor? Yes, because every DVR I have had (including the HR10-250 and the HR20) have missed reservations at some point in time.

If its that big of deal, go get a TIVO with FIOS.

Their $299 unit is the same base price as a HR20.

Is it any clearer to you yet?


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Chuck W said:


> :lol: Umm, weather is given just about the same time and is also last or 2nd to last, yet just about EVERYONE tunes in to see their local weather and hence why it is last... so you will hopefully stick thru the whole broadcast first, to see the weather.


Clearly you should not be a contestant on the CBS TV show "The Power of 10" as you have no idea what every piece of research says about how Americans think.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

loudo said:


> A while back I saw an article in the local news paper about sports on local newscasts. It stated that the reason their is very little of it, is because that most people that are really interested in sports news use any of the ESPN or local RSNs, to get their sports news.


And again, ESPN says 11% of the subs tune to the channel.

Think about it.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

jpl said:


> I'll throw one more personal experience out at you. When I was a directv customer, my opinion of VOD was exactly the same as yours - who cares about VOD? It's limited - it doesn't have EVERYTHING on it. I can record what I want with a DVR... And then I got access to VOD. Realize too that Verizon's VOD is still imature compared to say Comcast. For example, Comcast offers some network shows on VOD, Verizon doesn't.... Comcast offers free older movies, and Verizon doesn't (although they started running deals where you can get new releases of a couple movies for free some nights of the week - but given Verizon's lack of advertizing, you'd never know that you could catch Casino Royale for free)... and Comcast currently offers HD VOD, and Verizon doesn't yet (they're supposed to by the end of the year - I can get into WHY they don't offer it, if anyone's interested, and what I've heard their proposed solution is).
> 
> Still, even with all those limitations, I've become a big fan of VOD. I can understand why DirecTV is steaming ahead with it, even one that's only available to folks with an HR20 and with a high-speed internet connection. It's also the main reason I won't switch over to a tivo dvr. I really don't want to lose VOD. Not so much for me... but my kids would stage an insurrection. The only reason I don't use it more is because they don't have HD VOD yet. When looking for movies to watch on, say, Starz, I'm going to first look for when the movie is showing on Starz HD. If it's there, I'll record it (I'd rather catch it in HD). If it's not, then I will watch it on VOD, if available there (and the number of movies available via the movie pack on VOD is pretty impressive - both older and newer movies).
> 
> Ok - real quick - here's why Verizon is having issues with HD VOD. Most of their TV service gets fed through a coax going directly to your TV's STB. Some of the video service, however, doesn't go through that way. Things like guide data, VOD, and widgets all go through the IP portion of the light spectrum. That data goes to your router, and from your router gets fed into your TV's network (the router is connected to the tv splitter that they install). In one respect, this is a great design - it frees up that TV coax to devote its entire spectrum to TV programming. In another respect it could be problematic. Since HD takes so much bandwidth to transmit, and since these routers are designed to give precendence to the video feeds for the TV, running HD VOD was killing everyone's internet speed. As to a possible solution - one that I've heard I'm a-ok with. Verizon was going to increase everyone's internet speed to compensate. That's one that I'd heard. Don't know how true it is.


According to published reports, Verizon gives 850Mhz of bandwidth to TV at this point. That is a fixed number (and could be increased at a time when they need to).

As more bandwidth is eventually needed, they will just use different spectrums on the same fiber optic cable.


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## Reggie3 (Feb 20, 2006)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> According to published reports, Verizon gives 850Mhz of bandwidth to TV at this point. That is a fixed number (and could be increased at a time when they need to).
> 
> As more bandwidth is eventually needed, they will just use different spectrums on the same fiber optic cable.


And I thought I read somewhere recently that they have new software they will be using that should double the bandwidth - could be wrong as I've killed lots of braincells with my lifestyle


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> According to published reports, Verizon gives 850Mhz of bandwidth to TV at this point. That is a fixed number (and could be increased at a time when they need to).
> 
> As more bandwidth is eventually needed, they will just use different spectrums on the same fiber optic cable.


Yeah, I knew that they were using all 850 MHz for tv service (although I thought it was 860MHz). As for future expansion, they've already advertized how they plan on going about it - IPTV. They're planning on moving everything to feed through the router. The connections from the router to the TV coax will, ostensibly, be the same, but instead of getting a feed directly to your TVs, everything will go through your router via the IP feed. That's probably quite a few years away, and even with the 850MHz, they have more than enough capacity to expand for the foreseeable future.

They carry very few channels in analog today, and that's going to change in the near future - they agreed, as per an agreement with the FCC, to get rid of all their analog channels by Feb. 2009. The FCC has new requirements that went into effect on July 1st, mandating changes to cable STBs. They basically wanted to decouple security from the hardware of the box, allowing you to get a third-party box with a cable-card from the provider. The FCC is more sympathetic to new players in the cable arena - especially smaller outfits, so they've been willing to grant waivers to such companies (and at 500,000 TV subscribers, with a network that's only a few years old, Verizon definitely qualifies as a smaller cable outfit). In exchange, however, these outfits have agreed to eliminate all their analog channels by Feb. 2009. Verizon has already announced prices for a Digital Adapter - I believe that's what this is for - to allow the current analog only customers (the ones who just want the real basic local channels) to be able to continue to get those channels after this cut-off.

This limited number of analogs just gives them even more room to play with.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Reggie3 said:


> And I thought I read somewhere recently that they have new software they will be using that should double the bandwidth - could be wrong as I've killed lots of braincells with my lifestyle


Hadn't heard that. But I'm not sure how that helps expand the current set-up, since the fiber is converted to copper when it gets to your house - phone, internet, and cable. The cable feed is the bottle-neck for TV service - so the way things are currently set up they'll need to funnel down the video feed to 850 MHz anyway. I think they will start migrating more and more stuff to IP, though, which WILL free up bandwidth for tv service.


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## Chuck W (Mar 26, 2002)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Clearly you should not be a contestant on the CBS TV show "The Power of 10" as you have no idea what every piece of research says about how Americans think.


And clearly, neither should you...

Taken from here...

http://www.stateofthenewsmedia.org/2007/narrative_localtv_publicattitudes.asp?cat=7&media=7



> Earlier in the year, the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press biennial news consumption survey, which looks at local TV news consumption going back more than a decade, also found local TV is the most regularly watched news source among all the television news media. At 54%, more people regularly watch Local TV than Cable TV news (34%), network TV nightly news (28%) or network TV morning news (23%).
> 
> Why is local news more popular than other sources of news? Part of the answer may lie in the topic areas that people go looking for when they want news. *News about the weather tops the interest scale in the RTNDF survey, scoring 4.2 out of 5, and that is one area that local news is tailored for*. Other topic areas people care about are features about the community they live in and stories about crime - both local TV specialties. Those two categories scored 3.5 and 3.4 out of 5 on the interest scale that asked them how much they really cared about the subject area.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Only 25% of America cares about Sports - (ESPN puts it at half that) and only roughly 2.5%of those have a high passion for anything except their local teams. Thus FIOS works great for 99% of the people in the area where it is available.


The key is where it is available. I have never lived in a Verizon area so D* is the best product for me. All that a customers needs is south line of sight (I know that is not 100%) and to you 2.5% having passion for sports, it is much higher for D* customers, if the number bear out 16 million subs and 2 million NFL sunday ticket subs makes it about 12.5% for hardcore sports fans which is pretty good. Sports Fans are also very profitable. D* really makes a fair amount of profit on those customers. Again there are multiple factors and besides you mention bandwidth and channels, have you done a channel count for D*? D* have 10 satellites with roughly over 1000 channels on system (they have to broadcast a lot of LIL channels). So again you can argue both ways, D* does a lot to offer consumers. D* grows at roughly 1 million new net subs a year, FIOS is only at 500,000 subs right now. To be honest I think FIOS is going to hurt cable a lot more than D* or E*.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

convem24 said:


> The key is where it is available. I have never lived in a Verizon area so D* is the best product for me. All that a customers needs is south line of sight (I know that is not 100%) and to you 2.5% having passion for sports, it is much higher for D* customers, if the number bear out 16 million subs and 2 million NFL sunday ticket subs makes it about 12.5% for hardcore sports fans which is pretty good. Sports Fans are also very profitable. D* really makes a fair amount of profit on those customers. Again there are multiple factors and besides you mention bandwidth and channels, have you done a channel count for D*? D* have 10 satellites with roughly over 1000 channels on system (they have to broadcast a lot of LIL channels). So again you can argue both ways, D* does a lot to offer consumers. D* grows at roughly 1 million new net subs a year, FIOS is only at 500,000 subs right now. To be honest I think FIOS is going to hurt cable a lot more than D* or E*.


Again, 25% of the general population care about sports.

The local teams are generally on TV - at better quality than the 1280x1080i Directv gives you.

If you want to talk about people that care about out of market teams - you would need an electron microscope to find those numbers.

So again, for 99.33% of America (USA Population minus your 2 Million ST subs), FIOS would work just fine and give a better picture.

If you are part of the 0.66%, so be it, maybe D* is for you.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Chuck W said:


> And clearly, neither should you...
> 
> Taken from here...
> 
> http://www.stateofthenewsmedia.org/2007/narrative_localtv_publicattitudes.asp?cat=7&media=7


Clearly (the word you use) you have trouble reading as well. Would you care to highlight what I said that is contradicted in that Pew Study? Weather has always been a big factor which is why people have invested so heavily in Weather Radar as well as Vipir and WSI's Titan.

Weather is used to get the people to the 2nd quarter hour for ratings - sports is the throw away at the end.

As I said, don't embarrass yourself by being a contestant on "The Power of 10"


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## Chuck W (Mar 26, 2002)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Clearly (the word you use) you have trouble reading as well. Would you care to highlight what I said that is contradicted in that Pew Study? Weather has always been a big factor which is why people have invested so heavily in Weather Radar as well as Vipir and WSI's Titan.
> 
> Weather is used to get the people to the 2nd quarter hour for ratings - sports is the throw away at the end.
> 
> As I said, don't embarrass yourself by being a contestant on "The Power of 10"


Oh boy, nice flipflop there. First, you tell me I don't have a clue about what people think, when I say they do the same with weather, now you agree with me.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Chuck W said:


> Oh boy, nice flipflop there. First, you tell me I don't have a clue about what people think, when I say they do the same with weather, now you agree with me.


You clearly are confused.

I'll say it again so you can re-read it again - as "clearly" you cannot comphrend it.

LESS THAN 25% OF THE GENERAL POPULATION CARE ABOUT SPORTS.

THAT'S WHY ITS AT THE END OF THE NEWSCASTS. IN THE LAST 10 YEARS MORE AND MORE HAVE SAID THEY DO NOT EXPECT SPORTS INFORMATION FROM THEIR LOCAL NEWSCASTS AND INSTEAD, TURN TO ESPN AND RSN - AND THUS ITS GETTING LESS AND LESS TIME ON LOCAL NEWSCASTS. ESPN REPORTS BARELY DOUBLE DIGITS TUNE TO IT. YOU DO THE MATH.

IF YOU COUNT PEOPLE THAT CARE ABOUT OUT OF MARKET TEAMS, YOU NEED AN ELECTRON MICROSCOPE TO FIND THE NUMBERS.

I NEVER SAID THEY DIDN'T CARE ABOUT WEATHER AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN TOP PRIORITY IN EVERY MAGID NEWS STUDY DONE.

Again, for all the above reasons, including the fact that ESPN is full bitrate on FIOS, FIOS has the sports that 99.3% of the population wants in better quality then Directv.

Get it yet?

And if you look at the numbers released this morning, around 7.5 million are using FIOS for internet - just wait for the franchise licenses to go through and see people switch to FIOS TV in a heartbeat. In fact, in this market, if you are in a FIOS area, they will not even put a copper wire to your house for phones any longer - FIOS is all they will install. FIOS TV subs are about to go into hyper drive.


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## Chuck W (Mar 26, 2002)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> You clearly are confused.
> 
> I'll say it again so you can re-read it again - as "clearly" you cannot comphrend it.
> 
> ...


First off, it wasn't me referencing out of market teams, so get that outta here(and you think I'M confused).

Second, I do not believe that *LOCAL* sports is a throw away in MANY areas. It may be in some areas, but not in others. Not even close, especially those heavily (crazed?) into the local HS sports scenes(to this point, it doesn't even matter whether they like sports, because it's more about local pride, than liking sports).

A random *national* survey of how many people like sports, it not a good indicator. You need much more locally specific surveys, to really be relevant.

As for the ESPN's %11, people, these days seem to resent ESPN(at least most I talk to and read about), in general, so it would stand to reason, their viewership is down. People have moved to those RSNs and even FSN national.

And three, DON'T YELL(aka CAPS ON)! This is a discussion.



> Again, for all the above reasons, including the fact that ESPN is full bitrate on FIOS, FIOS has the sports that 99.3% of the population wants in better quality then Directv.
> 
> Get it yet?
> 
> And if you look at the numbers released this morning, around 7.5 million are using FIOS for internet - just wait for the franchise licenses to go through and see people switch to FIOS TV in a heartbeat. In fact, in this market, if you are in a FIOS area, they will not even put a copper wire to your house for phones any longer - FIOS is all they will install. FIOS TV subs are about to go into hyper drive.


I cannot talk much about FIOS, because I don't have it, nor will I ever(unless Verizon buys AT&T), and that's the kicker. You have to be in a FIOS market, which MANY people are not(are you gonna refute that too?), in order to be able to receive it. Whether or not it's better is irrelevant, because it's just not an option for many people.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I'm always amazed when threads take on a life of their own. I can attest that I'm guilty of pushing threads down tangents as much as anyone (heck, I've probably done more than my fair share). What the discussions of how many people are sports fans has to do with how the fios dvr stacks up to the HR20 is beyond me.

In my opinion both fios and directv are great services. Like all such services, they both have their pluses and minuses. I tend to go on at length about comparing the two services because I did that very thing when I thought about switching. I agonized over the decision because I really loved my directv service, but had to own up that, for me, it was time for a change.

Is fios for everyone? Of course not. Even in areas where it's available you'll find lots of folks who would never consider leaving directv - the number of 5 lnb dishes that have gone up in my neighborhood alone is testament to that. It all comes down to what's important to you and what kind of service most appeals to you. And while my posts have been pretty long (I apologize for that - I have a tendency to channel Stephen King at times - minus all that creepy stuff happening in Maine that is), it's just because of the thought process I went through to make the decision I did. Even given that, though, there are other areas that I've not touched on. I'll leave it like this - with an open invitation. If anyone is seriously considering fios and you're interested in a more detailed comparison, just IM me. I'd be more than happy to provide the full pros and cons of each service, as I see them.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

Chuck W said:


> First off, it wasn't me referencing out of market teams, so get that outta here(and you think I'M confused).
> 
> Second, I do not believe that *LOCAL* sports is a throw away in MANY areas. It may be in some areas, but not in others. Not even close, especially those heavily (crazed?) into the local HS sports scenes(to this point, it doesn't even matter whether they like sports, because it's more about local pride, than liking sports).
> 
> ...


Chuck I totally agree with you! A national survey or local viewing habits is asking an eskimo (I have eskimos but I could not think of another analogy) if he wants to buy ice. Certain area of country have far fewer local viewership than others. It all depends. My thing about sports products and viewing products in general is it needs to be interesting and thought provoking. Local channels don't do it for me. You do make an interesting comment on FIOS and customers. Their foot print like cable is limited. With DBS you have a much more open foot print. My parents have FIOS internet and D* bundled. They like the deal they got and with 3 DVRs at home the equivilent cost under FIOS is far too expensive compared to D* or even E*. They save about $23 a month on DVR fees. Qwest one of the other major telcos is focusing on the strength in D*'s video product over using their own. They think it is cheaper to do so and easier to market products since people have heard of D*. Just my two cents.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Not to artificially keep this thread alive, but I'm getting information from folks who've been upgraded to the new fios IMG s/w. They initially offered up the s/w to select folks who agreed to do evaluations of it. So much of the info that I'd gotten until now came from one such candidate - and only after the eval period was over. Anyway, verizon appears to have made updates to the s/w based on feedback during the evaluation, because there are apparently some changes from the version that that one guy evaluated. Verizon started the roll-out last week, and people in that one market have been providing their own feedback, which is similar to, but not identical to the info provided by the one person asked to evaluate it.

From what I'm hearing the new s/w has enabled a feature in their DVR that's probably requested more than any other - DLB! Ok, now I'm really excited about getting the new s/w (unfortunately I have to wait close to a month). I knew that the hardware could support it - Comcast has it in their moto dvr, which is a slightly different version of the DVR that Verizon uses. I just found this out, so I figured I'd add it to the mix - especially since the whole purpose of this thread was to compare the two DVRs.

Edit - actually, reading further, it appears to be hit or miss if it works. One guy has it working on one dvr but not a second one.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

convem24 said:


> Spartan - I totally agree but like HDTVfanactic is stating he is getting what he wants from FIOS.


Except for the fact that he's not just stating he's getting what he wants. He's stating that the PQ is so much clearer on FiOS that anyone (in a FiOS area) that chooses D* over FiOS is wrong.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> Obviously clear is a word you don't understand and have a problem seeing with your HDTV.
> 
> Virtually everyone who has compared FIOS and D* has said FIOS is better - in fact, I cannot recall the fool who said D* was better after comparing the two.
> 
> ...


1. I've said FiOS is a bit better. But it's not that much better. On the vast majority of programs it's not even noticeable.
2. I haven't missed a recording in 5 years with my D*Tivo's. From everything I've read (and I've read a lot over the last 9 months since I've been following FiOS), the HR20 is MUCH better than what FiOS provides.
3. If you would have read my earlier posts, you'd see that I need capacity. I currently have 2 D*Tivo's each with a SD capacity of well over 200 hours (500+ combined capacity). With the capacity of the new Tivo's, I'd have to get 2 (possibly 3) and I'd have to get the original units, not the new $299 non-expandable small HD units. Those are $600 and I'd have to get 2 of them. I don't feel like paying over $1200 plus the monthly Tivo fees for 2 units in order to get FiOS.

So you see, FiOS isn't ideal for everyone. It has nothing to do with your finding things "comical" that people would choose a provider because of the DVR. The PQ is close enough (IMO and others) that it comes down to other factors. The DVR is a big factor. We've had nearly flawless DVR's for 8 years now, we don't want to take a step back (at least not that huge of a step back). That's a big factor. For me and for many.

You're happy with your FiOS, good for you. Don't try and ridicule or belittle others because they don't make the same choices as you and don't use the same criteria that you use.

That being said, as I mentioned earlier, I'm under no commitment with D* and may still decide to go with FiOS in the next several months, but only if they improve their DVR and obtain discreet IR codes (I suppose you'd think I should just walk up to each DVR in the rack and put my hand over the "eye" of the one I'm not using every time I use the remote, because the PQ is so much better).

If it's not clear to you yet that your standards are not the same as everyone else's than I can't help you anymore.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Chuck W said:


> First off, it wasn't me referencing out of market teams, so get that outta here(and you think I'M confused).
> 
> Second, I do not believe that *LOCAL* sports is a throw away in MANY areas. It may be in some areas, but not in others. Not even close, especially those heavily (crazed?) into the local HS sports scenes(to this point, it doesn't even matter whether they like sports, because it's more about local pride, than liking sports).
> 
> ...


Population of USA is 300 Million. SNF and MNF has audience of 12-15 Million INCLUDING the local markets for the teams. Do the math - 5% or less.

Why you think that less than 25% care about Sports because of you just feel that way - there are NO NUMBERS to support your position.

Again, those that care about out of town teams are, for the 3rd time, you need an electron microscope to find - as its microscopic in every LOCAL piece of Magid Televsion studies for 25 years.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> Except for the fact that he's not just stating he's getting what he wants. He's stating that the PQ is so much clearer on FiOS that anyone (in a FiOS area) that chooses D* over FiOS is wrong..


Incorrect - I have said its 1) Cheaper 2) Much better Quality and 3) Fulfills the requirements for 99.33% of the population. There are 0.66% that it will not fulfill the needs for.



spartanstew said:


> 1. I've said FiOS is a bit better. But it's not that much better. On the vast majority of programs it's not even noticeable.


And that is where you are wrong - dead wrong. I can put the same channel on both and switch between - to a group that knows nothing about the 2 services or which they are viewing at the time - 100% say FIOS.



spartanstew said:


> 2. I haven't missed a recording in 5 years with my D*Tivo's. From everything I've read (and I've read a lot over the last 9 months since I've been following FiOS), the HR20 is MUCH better than what FiOS provides.


And 55% on engadet say the HR20 isnt ready for PrimeTime.

I get HD for the quality of the picture - if you think the HR20 is perfect, go read the CE threads.

If a DVR is make or break it for you, then get a Tivo.



spartanstew said:


> 3. If you would have read my earlier posts, you'd see that I need capacity. I currently have 2 D*Tivo's each with a SD capacity of well over 200 hours (500+ combined capacity). With the capacity of the new Tivo's, I'd have to get 2 (possibly 3) and I'd have to get the original units, not the new $299 non-expandable small HD units. Those are $600 and I'd have to get 2 of them. I don't feel like paying over $1200 plus the monthly Tivo fees for 2 units in order to get FiOS.


Release 9 of the TIVO software now in the hands of the beta testers allow you to move programs between TIVOs (in different rooms for example) and also to your PC via ethernet.

But again, there are other ways, less expensive than TIVO, that give me and others unlimited storage.



spartanstew said:


> So you see, FiOS isn't ideal for everyone. It has nothing to do with your finding things "comical" that people would choose a provider because of the DVR.


 and you probably choose your car model because of the color



spartanstew said:


> The PQ is close enough (IMO and others) that it comes down to other factors.


 Clearly your TV cannot do proper resolution.



spartanstew said:


> The DVR is a big factor. We've had nearly flawless DVR's for 8 years now, we don't want to take a step back (at least not that huge of a step back). That's a big factor. For me and for many.


If you want to try and convince us the HR20 has been flawless, dream on.



spartanstew said:


> You're happy with your FiOS, good for you. Don't try and ridicule or belittle others because they don't make the same choices as you and don't use the same criteria that you use.


 If you are in the 0.66%, good for you.



spartanstew said:


> That being said, as I mentioned earlier, I'm under no commitment with D* and may still decide to go with FiOS in the next several months, but only if they improve their DVR and obtain discreet IR codes (I suppose you'd think I should just walk up to each DVR in the rack and put my hand over the "eye" of the one I'm not using every time I use the remote, because the PQ is so much better).
> 
> If it's not clear to you yet that your standards are not the same as everyone else's than I can't help you anymore.


lots of luck with your choices. Perhaps you chose your wife because of her hair color as well :nono2:


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## Chuck W (Mar 26, 2002)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Population of USA is 300 Million. SNF and MNF has audience of 12-15 Million INCLUDING the local markets for the teams. Do the math - 5% or less.
> 
> Why you think that less than 25% care about Sports because of you just feel that way - there are NO NUMBERS to support your position.
> 
> Again, those that care about out of town teams are, for the 3rd time, you need an electron microscope to find - as its microscopic in every LOCAL piece of Magid Televsion studies for 25 years.


Ok, first off, why do you continue to bring up *out of town teams*? Once again, I have YET to make any commment about out of town teams.

My one and only comment I have made, so far, to you, is that I do not believe, for many areas, that sports news is a throw away(and why you say it's at the end of a broadcast). It may be, in some areas, but no where near, across the board, because not everyone is only concerned with their PRO sports teams. How many people that watch MNF and SNF or a generic national sampling % of who likes sports, has little relevance, in many areas, as to how many people what their local sports report and why they watch it.

I see it, first hand, when I travel, especially to my in-laws. They routinely have network programming pre-empted for local High School games(this is why they got Primestar, in the first place, years ago, so they could get other networks, that don't pre-empt) and their newscast is LED with local sports highlight blurbs, to keep people hanging, till the sports report, later(almost last) in the program.

Since this is getting off the topic at hand(FIOS vs Directv), I'm leaving at this. We can agree to disagree.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> We have done research for years for TV Newscasts and its never more than 25%. Why do you think Sports is last in the news with very little time given it?


Umm if its ONLY 25 % of people that actually like sports then why is the Superbowl, Bowl games, World series, ect some of the most watched programs. And look at the stands of any major college on a saturday in the fall. Packed!
Seems like a low estimate.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

msmith198025 said:


> Umm if its ONLY 25 % of people that actually like sports then why is the Superbowl, Bowl games, World series, ect some of the most watched programs. And look at the stands of any major college on a saturday in the fall. Packed!
> Seems like a low estimate.


I think you can argue with him till your blue in the face and it won't make any effect on his narrow minded agenda. I think a more relevant statistic would be how many HD TV owners are sports fans. I would hazard a guess that a great majority of people who buy HD TV's and then programming for them do it for the sports programming.


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## idlehands (Jul 14, 2006)

MikeR7 said:


> I think you can argue with him till your blue in the face and it won't make any effect on his narrow minded agenda. I think a more relevant statistic would be how many HD TV owners are sports fans. I would hazard a guess that a great majority of people who buy HD TV's and then programming for them do it for the sports programming.


Directv and Dishnet are both garbage and Fios is way better in terms of pic quality. If you are looking for thousands of channels, then yes, Dtv or DN would be better. Personcally I cannot stand the quality of the channels on either sat systems. It pisses me off FIOS isn't available to me. Some people here have said even where FIOS is availabe people still choose directv over it... Well I'll tell you two reasons why people choose sat over FIOS when given the option--1. because most people are idiots and they don't know anything about picture quality and are happy with any crap they're given. 2. because they can get a bunch of receivers and spread it out wherever they want to cut down on costs.


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## damjr (Mar 10, 2004)

msmith198025 said:


> Umm if its ONLY 25 % of people that actually like sports then why is the Superbowl, Bowl games, World series, ect some of the most watched programs. And look at the stands of any major college on a saturday in the fall. Packed!
> Seems like a low estimate.


OK.......Lets see if this helps. 
Yes, the stands are packed at college games, especially in states where there are no PRO teams, and yes the Super Bowl, Bowl games, etc....... have larger viewership.
What it comes down to is BASIC MATH, as HDTVFanAtic has clearly pointed out.
All you need to do is take the total amount of people attending games and watching them, compare the # to the population of the US and you get less than 25%. Just look at the population of the states, yours included, as compared to the total population, that follow college like Iowa, OK, etc....... and you'll see a low overall %. 
Not that difficult to believe.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

MikeR7 said:


> I think you can argue with him till your blue in the face and it won't make any effect on his narrow minded agenda. I think a more relevant statistic would be how many HD TV owners are sports fans. I would hazard a guess that a great majority of people who buy HD TV's and then programming for them do it for the sports programming.


Overall, it really doesn't matter. Folks will sign up for whatever service most closely suits their needs and pricing points. Yeah, I'm a fan of a number of sports, but I'd never consider signing up for something like NFL ST. To me, having CSN Philly is more important than having NFL ST, so FOR ME, on this one point, Fios is better suited to me. I'm still watching sports... and in fact I'm getting more of what I want with my current set up (I'm also getting Fox Soccer Channel in my base pack, which I've watched incessently since getting fios).

It's unfortunate that HDTVFanAtic has an axe to grind. For some sports fans DirecTV is the only way to go, for others, you need to have cable to get what you want. How that translates to the number of people who watch sports regularly is beyond me. I really don't see the relevence of how many people are sports fans out there. When I went to college - in central PA - I thought people were joking when I'd heard about how big highschool sports were. When I caught the news, and they led off with local HS teams, I'd realized I entered a different world  And my college football team at the time really... well, they sucked (we were rated as the worst football team in the nation while I was there) - the local HS team would sell out more seats than our college team (not even close to being a joke). Are those guys up there any less into sports because they prefer to watch the HS teams play? Of course not. To make an assessment that fios will rule the world because so few people would want NFL ST is just ridiculous. And I'm a fios subscriber! In fact, NFL ST is SUCH a cash-cow for DirecTV that they felt compelled to pay out how many millions of dollars to get exclusive rights to it?

Again, I'm struggling to see the relevence. If I were a big NASCAR fan, who just had to see the telemetry from Jeff Gordon's car, and who got chills by listening to the chatter between driver and pit crew, then of course I'm going to go with DirecTV and get Hotpass. It really depends on what you want and what you're willing to pay for it. I'm a big movie fan, personally, so I think Fios is better suited to my needs on that front too. I also want local access channels. But once again, that's me. That's what I like. There are lots of folks out there who could care less about movies, and really don't care about local access channels. They would rather see 4,000 MLB games a season. Each service is tailored differently, and addresses the needs of different sets of consumers. Personally I'm happy as anything that there are so many choices out there now for most people. I remember when cable first rolled into the neighborhood where I grew up. I thought it was the coolest thing in the universe. But the selection, by today's standards, was pitiful, and it didn't take long for them to start jacking up the prices. Today, I can choose from DirecTV, Dish Network, Comcast and FiOS. And each is rolling out technology that was unheard of back when cable was in its infancy - I know it's hard to remember what it was like watching tv without a DVR, but they only became ubiquitous in the last 3 or 4 years.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

jpl said:


> Today, I can choose from DirecTV, Dish Network, Comcast and FiOS. And each is rolling out technology that was unheard of back when cable was in its infancy - I know it's hard to remember what it was like watching tv without a DVR, but they only became ubiquitous in the last 3 or 4 years.


My choices are DirecTV, Dish Network, and Charter Cable. It is a no-brainer, DIRECTV WINS HANDS DOWN!:lol:

This whole thread is a joke. DIRECTV OR FIOS?

How many people really have this choice, less than 10% or less of the nations population, I would guess.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

damjr said:


> OK.......Lets see if this helps.
> Yes, the stands are packed at college games, especially in states where there are no PRO teams, and yes the Super Bowl, Bowl games, etc....... have larger viewership.
> What it comes down to is BASIC MATH, as HDTVFanAtic has clearly pointed out.
> All you need to do is take the total amount of people attending games and watching them, compare the # to the population of the US and you get less than 25%. Just look at the population of the states, yours included, as compared to the total population, that follow college like Iowa, OK, etc....... and you'll see a low overall %.
> Not that difficult to believe.


Alot of people have brought up highschool sports so i feel the need to throw that in also. Our local Highschool competes for the state championship on nearly a yearly basis. Go to the game on a friday night and it is not unusual for there to be over 10,000 fans in the stands. for a 4A highschool in mississippi. And even here in rural mississippi there are several area teams, so no, not everyone that lives here is at one game. Granted there arent that many at every highschool school game played at every school, but people do follow sports at a rate of more than a low 25%.

Another fact, based on math. The University of Alabama sells out every home game they have. 92,000+. with approx 30,000 or so outside still tailgating. With 8 or so home games a year thats around a million people right there that take the time to watch ONE team in a small state every season, NOT counting tv viewership. Add in that and the number would be much higher.

I have found ratings for these shows to be screwy at best anyway. They take a very small sampling in the same basic areas every time and call it a national ratings scale. Far from it.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

damjr said:


> OK.......Lets see if this helps.
> Yes, the stands are packed at college games, especially in states where there are no PRO teams, and yes the Super Bowl, Bowl games, etc....... have larger viewership.
> What it comes down to is BASIC MATH, as HDTVFanAtic has clearly pointed out.
> All you need to do is take the total amount of people attending games and watching them, compare the # to the population of the US and you get less than 25%. Just look at the population of the states, yours included, as compared to the total population, that follow college like Iowa, OK, etc....... and you'll see a low overall %.
> Not that difficult to believe.


USC, LSU, Florida, Florida state, Miami, Tennessee..just a few of the schools who sell out nearly every game AND have pro teams in the state.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

idlehands said:


> Directv and Dishnet are both garbage and Fios is way better in terms of pic quality. If you are looking for thousands of channels, then yes, Dtv or DN would be better. Personcally I cannot stand the quality of the channels on either sat systems. It pisses me off FIOS isn't available to me. Some people here have said even where FIOS is availabe people still choose directv over it... Well I'll tell you two reasons why people choose sat over FIOS when given the option--1. because most people are idiots and they don't know anything about picture quality and are happy with any crap they're given. 2. because they can get a bunch of receivers and spread it out wherever they want to cut down on costs.


If you dont mind me asking, what do you have? Dish? Directv? 
And if you have one those why would you be an "idiot" and pay for that garbage?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

MikeR7 said:


> My choices are DirecTV, Dish Network, and Charter Cable. It is a no-brainer, DIRECTV WINS HANDS DOWN!:lol:
> 
> This whole thread is a joke. DIRECTV OR FIOS?
> 
> How many people really have this choice, less than 10% or less of the nations population, I would guess.


If I had your choices, you're right, I would pick DirecTV too . But I disagree - I don't think this thread is a joke -- this thread started out as a serious discussion of the differences of the two DVRs. Granted, fios is not available to everyone, but that wasn't the point of this thread. FiOS will be available to some 20 million households by, I think, 2009 (I think that's the date) if you take Verizon's roll-out plan at face value (and given the number of trucks that continue to roll around this area, despite the penetration already in this area, and the amount of orange cable I see being laid all over the place, I do). They're not claiming 20 million customers by that point - but it will be available to a very large percentage of the US population. But even THAT wasn't the point of the thread.

The OP had a very legitimate question - one that I've actually answered several times on a variety of forums. FiOS is becoming a very real option for many people, and it's enticing - it's helpful to get a pro/con comparison of the two. Heck, I even went to the point (and my wife was ready to have me committed over this) of printing out both channel lists, and doing a comparison. Not an eyeball comparison - oh no... I took a multi-color pen, and marked each list - one color if a channel was on both platforms... a different color if it was on one but not the other... and another color still if it was available on both systems, but under different levels of service (e.g. IFC is a good example - it's available on TC - which is what I had, but to get it on fios I needed to upgrade to the movie pack).

It's especially relevent now that DirecTV is rolling out all those HD channels. I can't tell you how many people have come forward with: "I want HD and I have DirecTV, but I don't know if I should get their new DVR and sign on for another 2 years, or if I should jump ship now to FiOS." People are weighing their options out there - and since HD is still in alot of flux, it makes that decision much more difficult. Folks want to know that they're making the right decision. Especially if that decision involves plunking down $300 for an HR20, with a 2 year commitment. THAT'S what I saw as the point of this thread. The OP was looking to see if the HR20 investment was really worth it, or if he should consider the switch.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

jpl said:


> If I had your choices, you're right, I would pick DirecTV too . But I disagree - I don't think this thread is a joke -- this thread started out as a serious discussion of the differences of the two DVRs. Granted, fios is not available to everyone, but that wasn't the point of this thread. FiOS will be available to some 20 million households by, I think, 2009 (I think that's the date) if you take Verizon's roll-out plan at face value (and given the number of trucks that continue to roll around this area, despite the penetration already in this area, and the amount of orange cable I see being laid all over the place, I do). They're not claiming 20 million customers by that point - but it will be available to a very large percentage of the US population. But even THAT wasn't the point of the thread.
> 
> The OP had a very legitimate question - one that I've actually answered several times on a variety of forums. FiOS is becoming a very real option for many people, and it's enticing - it's helpful to get a pro/con comparison of the two. Heck, I even went to the point (and my wife was ready to have me committed over this) of printing out both channel lists, and doing a comparison. Not an eyeball comparison - oh no... I took a multi-color pen, and marked each list - one color if a channel was on both platforms... a different color if it was on one but not the other... and another color still if it was available on both systems, but under different levels of service (e.g. IFC is a good example - it's available on TC - which is what I had, but to get it on fios I needed to upgrade to the movie pack).
> 
> It's especially relevent now that DirecTV is rolling out all those HD channels. I can't tell you how many people have come forward with: "I want HD and I have DirecTV, but I don't know if I should get their new DVR and sign on for another 2 years, or if I should jump ship now to FiOS." People are weighing their options out there - and since HD is still in alot of flux, it makes that decision much more difficult. Folks want to know that they're making the right decision. Especially if that decision involves plunking down $300 for an HR20, with a 2 year commitment. THAT'S what I saw as the point of this thread. The OP was looking to see if the HR20 investment was really worth it, or if he should consider the switch.


Just because FIOS is deployed in those areas does not mean TV is. There is still a lot of areas where people can not get FIOS TV but have internet.

I could care less since verizon doesnt want to serve NH/VT and ME anymore so screw them. D* gets my money


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

its way off topic(still) but i found this and had to post it. Its the top rated broadcasts up to 2006. As you can see a LARGE percentage of them are sports programs. Sorry i kept on with this topic guys.
Rank Show or episode Number of
households Percentage of
households Share Date Net 
1 M*A*S*H series finale: "Goodbye, Farewell and Amen" 50.15 million 60.2% 77% February 28, 1983 CBS 
2 Dallas episode: "Who Done It?" aka "Who Shot J.R.?" 41.47 million 53.3% 76% November 21, 1980 CBS 
3 Roots Part VIII (finale) 36.38 million 51.1% 71% January 30, 1977 ABC 
4 Super Bowl XVI (San Francisco 49ers vs. Cincinnati Bengals) 40.02 million 49.1% 73% January 24, 1982 CBS 
5 Super Bowl XVII (Washington Redskins vs. Miami Dolphins) 40.48 million 48.6% 69% January 30, 1983 NBC 
6 XVII Winter Olympics: Ladies' figure skating - short program
featuring Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding 45.69 million 48.5% 64% February 23, 1994 CBS 
7 Super Bowl XX (Chicago Bears vs. New England Patriots) 41.49 million 48.3% 70% January 26, 1986 NBC 
8 Gone with the Wind telecast (part 1) 33.96 million 47.7% 65% November 7, 1976 NBC 
9 Gone with the Wind telecast (part 2) 33.75 million 47.4% 64% November 8, 1976 NBC 
10 Super Bowl XII (Dallas Cowboys vs. Denver Broncos) 34.41 million 47.2% 67% January 15, 1978 CBS 
11 Super Bowl XIII (Pittsburgh Steelers vs. Dallas Cowboys) 35.09 million 47.1% 74% January 21, 1979 NBC 
12 Bob Hope Christmas Special 27.26 million 46.6% 64% January 15, 1970 NBC 
13 Super Bowl XVIII (L.A. Raiders vs. Washington Redskins) 38.88 million 46.4% 71% January 22, 1984 CBS 
14 Super Bowl XIX (San Francisco 49ers vs. Miami Dolphins) 39.39 million 46.4% 63% January 20, 1985 ABC 
15 Super Bowl XIV (Pittsburgh Steelers vs. Los Angeles Rams) 35.33 million 46.3% 67% January 20, 1980 CBS 
16 Super Bowl XXX (Dallas Cowboys vs. Pittsburgh Steelers) 44.15 million 46.0% 68% January 28, 1996 NBC 
17 Movie: The Day After 38.55 million 46.0% 62% November 20, 1983 ABC 
18 Roots Part VI 32.68 million 45.9% 66% January 28, 1977 ABC 
19 The Fugitive series finale: "The Judgement: Part 2" 25.70 million 45.9% 72% August 29, 1967 ABC 
20 Super Bowl XXI (New York Giants vs. Denver Broncos) 40.03 million 45.8% 66% January 25, 1987 CBS 
21 Roots Part V 32.54 million 45.7% 71% January 27, 1977 ABC 
22 Super Bowl XXVIII (Dallas Cowboys vs. Buffalo Bills) 42.86 million 45.5% 66% January 30, 1994 NBC 
23 Cheers series finale: "One For The Road" 42.36 million 45.5% 64% May 20, 1993 NBC 
24 Super Bowl XXVII (Dallas Cowboys vs. Buffalo Bills) 41.99 million 45.1% 66% January 31, 1993 NBC 
25 Bob Hope Christmas Show 27.05 million 45.0% 61% January 14, 1971 NBC 
26 Roots Part III 31.90 million 44.8% 68% January 25, 1977 ABC 
27 Super Bowl XXXII (Denver Broncos vs. Green Bay Packers) 43.63 million 44.5% 67% January 25, 1998 NBC 
28 Super Bowl XI (Oakland Raiders vs. Minnesota Vikings) 31.61 million 44.4% 73% January 9, 1977 NBC 
29 Super Bowl XV (Oakland Raiders vs. Philadelphia Eagles) 34.54 million 44.4% 63% January 25, 1981 NBC


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

compnurd said:


> Just because FIOS is deployed in those areas does not mean TV is. There is still a lot of areas where people can not get FIOS TV but have internet.
> 
> I could care less since verizon doesnt want to serve NH/VT and ME anymore so screw them. D* gets my money


That's true - but most areas that have internet only will get TV in the future as well. That was the case with us - TV service came 11 months after internet service. Part of that comes from the fact that, in many areas, legislative changes are needed to allow another cable carrier in. And franchise agreements need to be hashed out - the states that generate state-wide franchise agreements with Verizon tend to get rolled out really quickly. NJ, e.g., is getting rolled out like crazy. PA is a little slower because we decided to deal with Verizon on a township-by-township basis (a truly stupid decision). The numbers that I gave (and I'll admit I'm working from my spotty memory) is for TV subscribers - not just households that will have fiber available. Meaning it's the number of households that will have TV service available to them in the future. There are very few areas (and yes, from what I understand, this includes your area, where Verizon is selling off their system) that will be internet only. It just makes no sense to do that. The real cost in all this is rolling out the fiber. If you can grab someone as a triple-play customer you're going to make alot more money in the long-run. It just makes no sense to keep the service internet only in those areas.

Again, and I hate to say this, but that's really irrelevent here. The OP HAS FiOS TV available to him, and he had some questions comparing the two products. I don't see what's so invalid about that. If he asked about a comparison to Comcast would it be invalid because Comcast isn't available everywhere? I guess I just don't get the tack that because it's not available everywhere that a question comparing the services is invalid.


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## celticpride (Sep 6, 2006)

IDLEHANDS i resemble that remark! heh, heh, i stayed with directv because they carry NBA league pass and verizon doesn't. AND YES i tried verizon and agree 100% verizons quality is much better than directv but in the end i needed to have NBA league pass!!!


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Incorrect - I have said its 1) Cheaper 2) Much better Quality and 3) Fulfills the requirements for 99.33% of the population. There are 0.66% that it will not fulfill the needs for.


1. It may be cheaper for you, but not for everyone. When I cost it out, it's not cheaper for me.
2. In your opinion (why can't you understand that some people have opinions different than yours?)
3. Source?



HDTVFanAtic said:


> And that is where you are wrong - dead wrong. I can put the same channel on both and switch between - to a group that knows nothing about the 2 services or which they are viewing at the time - 100% say FIOS.


100%? Doubt it. Even if so, that doesn't mean it's MUCH better. It just means that people can see a difference. If you didn't do side by side, but just put one of them on a TV and invited people over, I seriously doubt if they'd be able to tell if it's D* or FiOS. I've done it. You make it sound as if D* HD has the quality of VHS. That's ridiculous.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> And 55% on engadet say the HR20 isnt ready for PrimeTime.


Please tell me you don't use engadget for your scientific data.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> I get HD for the quality of the picture - if you think the HR20 is perfect, go read the CE threads.


Are you reading? Can you point me to where I said the HR20 was perfect?



HDTVFanAtic said:


> If a DVR is make or break it for you, then get a Tivo.


Again, are you reading? I've already explained why that isn't a viable option.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> Release 9 of the TIVO software now in the hands of the beta testers allow you to move programs between TIVOs (in different rooms for example) and also to your PC via ethernet.
> 
> But again, there are other ways, less expensive than TIVO, that give me and others unlimited storage.


I have no need to move programs between TIVO's (and not sure why that's relevent here), I already have a distribution network and can watch any show from any of my D*Tivo's on any TV in the house. That doesn't negate the fact that I need at least 2 DVR's and FiOS is not set up to do that (and the tivo route with the capacity needed is way too expensive).

Have you read anything I wrote?



HDTVFanAtic said:


> and you probably choose your car model because of the color


How is that relevent. I certainly wouldn't pick a car on gas mileage alone. I would weigh several factors. You, however, only look at one thing and take the rest of the package whether you like it or not. That's ridiculous.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> Clearly your TV cannot do proper resolution.


It can, but not sure why that's relevant. I don't even have HD (again, have you read anything I've written or are you typing from some script?). All my HD comparisons have been at other peoples homes.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> If you want to try and convince us the HR20 has been flawless, dream on.


What? I must ask again: Have you read anything I've written? I don't even own an HR20. I've certainly never said it's flawless.



HDTVFanAtic said:


> If you are in the 0.66%, good for you.


I'm certainly one of the individuals that's leaning towards D* over FiOS, but again, do you have a source for this info?



HDTVFanAtic said:


> lots of luck with your choices. Perhaps you chose your wife because of her hair color as well :nono2:


Just like the car, my wife's hair color was certainly one of the factors. In your world, you would pick your wife based on one criteria. Maybe you like Boobs. So, if you met someone with nice Boobs (which is most important to you), you'd marry her no matter what the other qualities were? I don't think so. Yet, that's what you do with your HD provider. You look at one quality and one quality only. There's a lot of factors that must be weighed (by 99.33% of the population).

You don't evaluate everything. You evaluate one thing (HD quality). That's fine. But you can't be obtuse enough to really believe that everyone should do the same thing. You just can't. That's so illogical it borders on insanity.

Have fun with your FiOS. Maybe one day, I'll have fun with FiOS too, but certainly not until they improve some of the key functions of their DVR. I'm in it for the overall TV viewing experience. You're not. You're in it for the best possible picture no matter what. Doesn't matter what else you (or someone else) might have to sacrifice, as long as the PQ is the best it can be, you're happy. I can guarantee you, that you're not in the majority on that thinking.

Life lesson for you: As you go through life, you might actually find people that think differently than you. Regardless of what your parents might have told you, that doesn't mean they're wrong. There are people on this planet that will have different opinions and priorities than you. Learn to accept that and you may find that you'll enjoy life just a little bit more.


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## convem24 (Mar 11, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> 1. It may be cheaper for you, but not for everyone. When I cost it out, it's not cheaper for me.
> 2. In your opinion (why can't you understand that some people have opinions different than yours?)
> 3. Source?
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you. I just got tired of speaking with our friend. There are many many things that customesr look at in terms of overall quality versus features, versus price. For me D* offers what I want a competitive price. Plus I move around a fair bit and I don't like moving cable service (in many cases I could not get same cable company or FIOS in any area I move to). D* is offering more than FIOS can for me (plus I don't like the Motorola DVRs and I hate to pay TIVO for something I can get for less).


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

msmith198025 said:


> its way off topic(still) but i found this and had to post it. Its the top rated broadcasts up to 2006. As you can see a LARGE percentage of them are sports programs. Sorry i kept on with this topic guys.
> Rank Show or episode Number of
> households Percentage of
> households Share Date Net
> ...


It's way off topic. But with the same data, I wouldn't conclude sports programs rule. I would conclude network TV is seriously challenged as a business model nowadays. There is nothing in the last 10 years that crank the rankings. The world has evolved. All D*'s sports program advantages have nothing to do with this listing. I am glad civilization has evolved to the extent we can have more choices about what we want or don't want to watch.

Disclaimer: My comment doesn't imply I am taking sides on FIOS. I was determined to get FIOS TV when it becomes available, but I have changed my mind since all the HDTV announcement D* made. PQ is not enough difference for me to leave D* now that they have the incumbent advantage. I don't dislike HDlite like some of you. If FIOS give me HD MRV, I will switch.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

msmith198025 said:


> its way off topic(still) but i found this and had to post it. Its the top rated broadcasts up to 2006. As you can see a LARGE percentage of them are sports programs. Sorry i kept on with this topic guys.
> Rank Show or episode Number of
> households Percentage of
> households Share Date Net
> ...


It's way off topic. But with the same data, I wouldn't conclude sports programs rule. I would conclude network TV is seriously challenged as a business model nowadays. There is nothing in the last 10 years that crank the rankings. The world has evolved. All D*'s sports program advantages have nothing to do with this listing. I am glad civilization has evolved to the extent we can have more choices about what we want or don't want to watch.

Disclaimer: My comment doesn't imply I am taking sides on FIOS. I was determined to get FIOS TV when it becomes available, but I have changed my mind since all the HDTV announcement D* made. PQ is not enough difference for me to leave D* now that they have the incumbent advantage. I don't dislike HDlite like some of you. If FIOS gives me HD MRV, I will switch.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Dusty said:


> It's way off topic. But with the same data, I wouldn't conclude sports programs rule. I would conclude network TV is seriously challenged as a business model nowadays. There is nothing in the last 10 years that crank the rankings. The world has evolved. All D*'s sports program advantages have nothing to do with this listing. I am glad civilization has evolved to the extent we can have more choices about what we want or don't want to watch.
> 
> Disclaimer: My comment doesn't imply I am taking sides on FIOS. I was determined to get FIOS TV when it becomes available, but I have changed my mind since all the HDTV announcement D* made. PQ is not enough difference for me to leave D* now that they have the incumbent advantage. I don't dislike HDlite like some of you. If FIOS gives me HD MRV, I will switch.


Im all for choices, and if Fios has what you want, then go for it. I know i would.
I am simply trying to point out that if you look at the percentage of housholds with tvs, and it was hard to tell from my post i admit, then you would see that most of the programs in the top howevermany that was were in fact sports channels.
Alot of posts say do the math, 40 million out of 300 million is a low percentage, but ALL 300 million of them dont have tv's. Its all about the percentage of housholds, and based on that around 40 percent watch sports when its on. That is a fact, and i just proved it. That is from Neilsen. And for TOTAL NUMBER of viewers, most of the top programs were sports programs too. I could post that list, but like you said we have strayed way off topic.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> Umm if its ONLY 25 % of people that actually like sports then why is the Superbowl, Bowl games, World series, ect some of the most watched programs. And look at the stands of any major college on a saturday in the fall. Packed!
> Seems like a low estimate.


World Series games do NOT deliever 25% of the population.

A stadium with 25,000 to 60,000 fans still does not equate to 25% of the population - especially on colleges with 25,000 students and nothing else to do.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

convem24 said:


> And I live in the Northwest where we don't get torrential rains. It is a light rain (even if you can call it rain, haha). Any comment on that?


Yes, from yet another daily poster:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1026467#post1026467



Steve Robertson said:


> Rain fade on the slimline just plain sucks this may force me to go to FIOS eventually as I am not putting up with this crap.
> 
> Yes I have had my dish aligned and yes my signals are 95-100 so nothing can be done there. I even lost my 101 for a short time which never happened before.


Sure, no rain fade issues with D* and Ka


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> World Series games do NOT deliever 25% of the population.
> 
> A stadium with 25,000 to 60,000 fans still does not equate to 25% of the population - especially on colleges with 25,000 students and nothing else to do.


you are right A stadium with 25,000-60,000 doesnt. But there isnt only one...and like i said in a different post, the people in the stadium arent the only ones there for the game. Plus the housholds with the game on.

And yes i kind of agree with you about the World Series, the world series isnt what it used to be. I sometimes only watch a game or two, but Id guess that it is pretty highly rated when its on. Id have to check


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## BruceS (Sep 23, 2006)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> World Series games do NOT deliever 25% of the population.
> 
> A stadium with 25,000 to 60,000 fans still does not equate to 25% of the population - especially on colleges with 25,000 students and nothing else to do.


What in the world does stadium attendance have to do with the number of people likely to watch a football game.

Any alumni who live out of state or cannot get a ticket to the stadium is likely to still want to watch the game. This applies to both the colleges competing as well as any other college football fan who has an interest in that particular game.

By the way, I have both D* and TW cable at this time. I plan to drop TW as soon as FIOS tv service becomes available in my area just because of the number of outages TW has in my area. Their advertisements about the D* problems with rain fade and the high quality of TW service make me laugh. Yes I have occasional rain fade problems, but I have lost TW service at least three times for every time I have had a rain fade problem.

I am not even a football fan, but I am a baseball fan, and MLB Extra Innings and the sportspack allows me to watch many more games on D* with my favorite team's announcers than Extra Innings on TW ever did.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

MikeR7 said:


> I think you can argue with him till your blue in the face and it won't make any effect on his narrow minded agenda. I think a more relevant statistic would be how many HD TV owners are sports fans. I would hazard a guess that a great majority of people who buy HD TV's and then programming for them do it for the sports programming.


Right back at you.....

WNBC in New York - High Def News on Channel 4 is dropping syndication from 7pm until 8pm in September and going with an hour news block in HD.

They WILL NOT COVER SPORTS IN THE HOUR....in NYC.....the #1 Market in America with how many sports teams...

Think long and hard about it........


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> you are right A stadium with 25,000-60,000 doesnt. But there isnt only one...and like i said in a different post, the people in the stadium arent the only ones there for the game. Plus the housholds with the game on.
> 
> And yes i kind of agree with you about the World Series, the world series isnt what it used to be. I sometimes only watch a game or two, but Id guess that it is pretty highly rated when its on. Id have to check


First a little math.....25% of the US Population is around 75,000,000 (Million with a M). If you think that 75,000,000 are in College Stadium or watching Football on a Saturday afternoon, are you out of touch with reality....


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

BruceS said:


> What in the world does stadium attendance have to do with the number of people likely to watch a football game.


Read above where another poster said that the number of people in a football stadium on Saturday proved that more than 25% of the USA Population cared about Sports.

His statements....not mine.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Read above where another poster said that the number of people in a football stadium on Saturday proved that more than 25% of the USA Population cared about Sports.
> 
> His statements....not mine.


I never said that stadium attendance on saturday proved anything, i was using that as an example of the following that ONE sport has. There are many others with just as strong of a following.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> First a little math.....25% of the US Population is around 75,000,000 (Million with a M). If you think that 75,000,000 are in College Stadium or watching Football on a Saturday afternoon, are you out of touch with reality....


I do know that more than that number have watched the superbowl for the past few years. so maybe......


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> I do know that more than that number have watched the superbowl for the past few years. so maybe......


And guess what - the Superbowl looks better on FIOS than D* - getting back to the topic at hand.

Thanks for proving my point and proving once again FIOS will fill the Sports needs of 99.33% of the USA Population.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> And guess what - the Superbowl looks better on FIOS than D* - getting back to the topic at hand.
> 
> Thanks for proving my point and proving once again FIOS will fill the Sports needs of 99.33% of the USA Population.


Thanks for picking one thing that disproved your whole argument and spinning it. lol

And looks better to who? that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but i doubt everyone would agree.
And I usually watch my superbowls OTA which looks better than FIOS...


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Right back at you.....
> 
> WNBC in New York - High Def News on Channel 4 is dropping syndication from 7pm until 8pm in September and going with an hour news block in HD.
> 
> ...


I've read this over a few times. I have no idea how it relates to my post that you quoted.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

MikeR7 said:


> I've read this over a few times. I have no idea how it relates to my post that you quoted.


I think he was trying to show that one HD station wasnt covering sports. 
But you are right, that has NOTHING to do with your statement that A large percentage of people by HDTV's with sports programming in mind.
Just means that one station is likely to lose viewers when people want sports updates.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

FIOS will never be equal to D* or E*, in sports coverage, until they offer the RSN package, that they both do.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> Thanks for picking one thing that disproved your whole argument and spinning it. lol
> 
> And looks better to who? that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but i doubt everyone would agree.
> And I usually watch my superbowls OTA which looks better than FIOS...


ROFLMAO

This is D* v FIOS....not OTA.

People who never watch any other football game see parts of the Superbowl - and its not for the fact its a Sporting Event. As many, if not more, watch for the spots. It's an social event - not a sporting event.

So again, you have proven nothing.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> ROFLMAO
> 
> This is D* v FIOS....not OTA.
> 
> ...


LOL
The Superbowl ISNT a sporting event?????? Then what are the two teams.....You need to get back in touch with reality.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> LOL
> The Superbowl ISNT a sporting event?????? Then what are the two teams.....You need to get back in touch with reality.


The Superbowl is a Social Event. You are the one out of touch with reality.

The teams are inconsequential.

If you wish to say that someone who watches the Superbowl cares about sports and only sports - you are sadly mistaken.

That can also be proven by the SHARP decline in ratings in the 3rd and 4th Quarters (after half-time). The person who really cares about sports would stay to see all the plays - and more importantly- who won.

Combine that with the fact that at viewership of 90 million in the USA (which is an abnormally high number in recent Superbowls) that number is not that much higher than the 25% of the population cares about sports statement I made in the very beginning.



msmith198025 said:


> LOL
> The Superbowl ISNT a sporting event?????? Then what are the two teams.....You need to get back in touch with reality.


"Majority of U.S. Adults Watch Super Bowl for the Ads"

"More than half of U.S. adults watching the Super Bowl (56%) will be doing so as much or more for Super Bowl ads as for the game: Hanon McKendry poll shows."

"The new data show that Super Bowl advertising is increasingly vying for supremacy with the game itself," said Bill McKendry, Founder/Chief Creative Officer for Hanon McKendry/The Brand Consultants. "*Our survey confirms that the Super Bowl is as much or more a 'must-see' media event as it is a sporting event*."

http://www.huliq.com/9353/majority-of-u-s-adults-watch-super-bowl-for-the-ads

Who's out of touch with reality as thinking the Superbowl viewing is a representation of those who care about Sports?

But again, you are throwing out red herrings, to confuse the original issue, which has nothing to do with the fact that, in a direct head to head battle, FIOS will supply the sports that 99.33% of the American Public want and have a better picture doing so.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> The Superbowl is a Social Event. You are the one out of touch with reality.
> 
> The teams are inconsequential.
> 
> ...


No, i was simply pointing out A SPORTING event that is very highly rated and watched by almost half the housholds in america to counter your less than 25 % of people care about sports, you simply refuse to admit that two teams of eleven on eleven playing with on a field with an oddly shaped ball trying to score touchdowns is a sporting event. Granted some watch for commercials, ill admit that, but most watch for both. And why do you think advertisers wait until the superbowl to bring out the new funny ads? Because its the highest rated program of the year.

And posting a link where one group said its a social event to back up your claim is meaningless. I can post hundreds of sports links that say it is a football game.....depends on the source


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

that being said, im not going to convince you and you arent going to convince me, lets just disagree on this one.


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## MLBurks (Dec 16, 2005)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> "Majority of U.S. Adults Watch Super Bowl for the Ads"


God, I HATE commercials. I can't imagine watching anything just to SEE the commercials 
This is why I RECORD EVERYTHING I watch. Even sports! So I can FF through lousy commercials.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

msmith198025 said:


> . And why do you think advertisers wait until the superbowl to bring out the new funny ads? Because its the highest rated program of the year.
> 
> And posting a link where one group said its a social event to back up your claim is meaningless. I can post hundreds of sports links that say it is a football game.....depends on the source


LOL

Again that shows your bias - you didn't even read it.

The poll was done, if you bothered to read the entire thing, by Harris - which is the #2 most well known polling organization in the USA behind Gallup....not just "one group"

Your sources will never be as respected - and I will bet you whatever amount of money you want that you cannot post hundreds of sports links based on RESEARCH of the public and not opinion that can be wrong - just as yours is.



msmith198025 said:


> that being said, im not going to convince you and you arent going to convince me, lets just disagree on this one.


In other words.....the evidence is against you and you cannot spin it with facts.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> In other words.....the evidence is against you and you cannot spin it with facts.


You really are childish at times arent you. and not just in this thread. I saw you acting the same way with VOS on another. Im trying to end an argument that neither one of us will win. well at least convince the other of our points of view anyway. We have both posted "facts" and "numbers" , we still think our own way. Whats the problem?
I guess continue on with you "you cant win because evidence is against you" if that makes you feel better.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

MLBurks said:


> God, I HATE commercials. I can't imagine watching anything just to SEE the commercials
> This is why I RECORD EVERYTHING I watch. Even sports! So I can FF through lousy commercials.


And as TIVO has shown people rewind and watch the commercials multiple times in the Superbowl - thus why it is an event - not an indicator of sports interest.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

www.skyreport.com

Study: FiOS Hurting DBS More than Cable

As Verizon continues its FiOS TV expansion across the country, other pay-TV providers are finding it more difficult to downplay the company's growing success. While it still may be years away before FiOS has comparable subscriber numbers to incumbent cable and satellite operators, a new study suggests the fiber-supported video service may be drawing more from DIRECTV and DISH Network than leading cable companies.

According to research conducted by OneTrak, Verizon's FiOS TV product seemed to be taking more subscribers away from satellite operators than from rival cable companies - at least from the 34 Massachusetts communities where the telco launched service last year. The firm said in those municipalities, Verizon enlisted about 12,000 subscribers during a roughly 90-day period.

OneTrak said during that time, incumbent cable operator Comcast lost 5,216 customers - a 2.6 percent decline among its client base of 204,106. The firm also said RCN, providing cable services to nine of the 34 towns, saw a seven percent dip in subscribers - or 1,813 customers.

With OneTrak assuming about 3 percent of FiOS TV subscribers didn't have any pay-TV service prior to signing up, the firm's study suggests that about 4,600 new Verizon customers came from satellite. The total represents about 38 percent of the region's multichannel customers defecting from either DIRECTV or DISH.

According to Verizon, more than 1.3 million households nationwide now subscribe to its television service, with FiOS TV averaging 2,600 sales every business day. In 15 months, the wireless company has doubled the number of subscribers bundling their DIRECTV satellite TV service with Verizon services, with 125,000 homes added in the second quarter alone, the company said.


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## cashdaddy (Aug 8, 2007)

Late to the discussion, but I'll add my 2 cents....

I moved recently to Loudoun County, VA and made the decision to drop DTV (had 2 HR20 DVRs) and go with FIOS. I have to admit, the HD picture on both my TV's (Sony 55" SXRD rear proj. & Samsung 26" LCD) looks much better than what I had with DTV - and I thought DTV HD was good. Very crisp and clear, with no perceived imperfections....

The FIOS offer was pretty hard to beat - got a 2 year contract with unlimited phone calls in the US, 30 MB down / 5 MB up internet speed, and 2 HD DVR's (basic 200+ channels plus the HBO package) for a total of ~$160/month. I've been very pleased with the over quality of everything (even SD channels on my Sony and SAMMY LCD look better than they did on DTV). One feature that's pretty handy is the fact that the DVR boxes and high-speed internet connection with the modem are interchangeable on any coax cable outlet in my house.

I always liked DirecTV's customer service, and they very easy to work with when I asked to discontinue my service (with several phone calls from Retention days later asking me to return).


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