# ViP622/ViP722 - L4.49 Software Experiences/Bugs Discussion



## Rob Glasser

Effective 02/21/08, L4.49 has begun spooling for the ViP622/ViP722. It looks like it will be a partial release initially. Please use this thread for documenting your experiences and/or bugs found.

Release notes can be found *here*


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## phrelin

I have actually gained from the release since the Favorite "popup" solves a problem for this idiot who sometimes presses the guide button too many times ending up in the wrong guide.:grin: 

The DishONLINE has some option called TV Entertainment but it's a "coming soon." Hope that means access to online programming - something like Hulu? It also seemed that the listing for the 332 available movies loaded faster.

I didn't experience problems to be fixed by the "fixes" so I don't know if they work or not.


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## HobbyTalk

I have E* thru AT&T. We don't get DishONLINE. I am on L4.48. We have a TV Entertainment option under the DVR menu (item 3). In that area we have 3 programs available that include Explorer: Inside Sumo, House Hunters Tenn., Everyday Italian - Freeze. It appears they are from SOON channels 5828-30


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## James Long

I like the favorites mode change. (Got to go into Favorites setup to turn it on.)
My wife is constantly changing the guide to HER list ... to get back to mine is several presses of the guide button. The menu makes that a quicker selection (for me).


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## 0pusX

im new to this whole thing. how do i get the update?


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## Miggity

0pusX said:


> im new to this whole thing. how do i get the update?


In Soviet Russia, update gets _you_!


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## benn5325

HobbyTalk said:


> I have E* thru AT&T. We don't get DishONLINE. I am on L4.48. We have a TV Entertainment option under the DVR menu (item 3). In that area we have 3 programs available that include Explorer: Inside Sumo, House Hunters Tenn., Everyday Italian - Freeze. It appears they are from SOON channels 5828-30


I'm with AT&T also and I have dishOnline. You need to have your rcvr connected to a broadband network for this option to appear.


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## James Long

0pusX said:


> im new to this whole thing. how do i get the update?


Software updates are released in batches. E* usually starts with a small group of receivers and then works up adding larger groups until "everyone" is selected to receive the new software.

You can't choose what group you are in ... just turn off your receiver at night and wait for your number to come up.


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## HobbyTalk

benn5325 said:


> I'm with AT&T also and I have dishOnline. You need to have your rcvr connected to a broadband network for this option to appear.


Mine is hooked up to broadband. Under my DVR menu I have the following

1 My Recordings
2 Movies & More
3 TV Entertainment
4 USB Storage
5 Cancel

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115501


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## jdhbankman

benn5325 said:


> I'm with AT&T also and I have dishOnline. You need to have your rcvr connected to a broadband network for this option to appear.


I am also a AT&T customer. Dishonline is scheduling recording on your DVR online. I beleive that you are talking about Video on Demand. You need a Dish account number to set up dish online, can not use AT&T account #'s.


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## HobbyTalk

DishOnline is a service where you can download movies to your DVR over the internet. If you hit the DVR button, it should be option 5 on that menu. I have no option 5.


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## beetle02

I hope it fixes my reboot problem. I thought I had it fixed after I put a chill mat underneath it but it rebooted today. But I think the chill mat has helped since it has only rebooted once in 5 days.


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## TulsaOK

phrelin said:


> I have actually gained from the release since the Favorite "popup" solves a problem for this idiot who sometimes presses the guide button too many times ending up in the wrong guide.:grin:
> 
> The DishONLINE has some option called TV Entertainment but it's a "coming soon." Hope that means access to online programming - something like Hulu? It also seemed that the listing for the 332 available movies loaded faster.
> 
> I didn't experience problems to be fixed by the "fixes" so I don't know if they work or not.


Can you describe the popup and how it works?


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## James Long

Step 1 - Wait for L4.49 to be targeted to and downloaded by your receiver.

Step 2 - Press MENU-8-3 to go to favorites
You should have a "Guide Selection" option next to your favorite lists ... one saying Guide Button (selected by default) and one saying Guide Popup - _If you don't have this selection you don't have L4.49 ... return to step 1._

Step 3 - Select "Guide Popup" then select DONE

Step 4 - Press the "GUIDE" button on your remote to enter the guide

Now every time you press the GUIDE button instead of flipping through the guides sequentially you will be presented with a menu. You can still press GUIDE over and over until you get to the menu you want, then select (without going to the word FAVORITES) or arrow to the list you want.


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## TulsaOK

James Long said:


> Step 1 - Wait for L4.49 to be targeted to and downloaded by your receiver.
> 
> Step 2 - Press MENU-8-3 to go to favorites
> You should have a "Guide Selection" option next to your favorite lists ... one saying Guide Button (selected by default) and one saying Guide Popup - _If you don't have this selection you don't have L4.49 ... return to step 1._
> 
> Step 3 - Select "Guide Popup" then select DONE
> 
> Step 4 - Press the "GUIDE" button on your remote to enter the guide
> 
> Now every time you press the GUIDE button instead of flipping through the guides sequentially you will be presented with a menu. You can still press GUIDE over and over until you get to the menu you want, then select (without going to the word FAVORITES) or arrow to the list you want.


I was just wondering if it was going to be a PITA thing like pressing the TV button and getting a popup that told you that you just pressed the TV button. I don't have any Favorite LIsts so just pressing the guide will bring up All Sub as it currently does? That would be good. I really don't see the point in messing with this when there are other more important things they could be fixing. Frame-by-Frame for example.


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## James Long

Yes ... this one is totally optional. Most users won't even know they have the option.

One press of GUIDE from watching TV or pretty much anywhere except the guide will give you the last guide format viewed ... just like it does pre-L4.49 ... and subsequent presses will cycle through guides ... just like it does pre-L4.49 .

Some of this PITA stuff for tech people is a godsend for CSRs that get the call when customers can't figure out how to work their receiver. Every minute that they don't have to spend on the phone explaining how to tune the TV back to the satellite box and how to get back to controlling the receiver instead of the TV is a minute they can be helping other customers and (potentially) add up to hours that DISH won't have to pay CSRs.

Money that can be spent on better things than "how to use your remote" telephone tutorials.


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## mrplow

Is reset HDMI gone ? My wife says it's grayed out, I can't check it until Monday when I get home.


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## sangu72

Can you program your DVR from their website with the new update?


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## langlin

James Long said:


> Step 1 - Wait for L4.49 to be targeted to and downloaded by your receiver.
> 
> Step 2 - Press MENU-8-3 to go to favorites
> You should have a "Guide Selection" option next to your favorite lists ... one saying Guide Button (selected by default) and one saying Guide Popup - _If you don't have this selection you don't have L4.49 ... return to step 1._
> 
> Step 3 - Select "Guide Popup" then select DONE
> 
> Step 4 - Press the "GUIDE" button on your remote to enter the guide
> 
> Now every time you press the GUIDE button instead of flipping through the guides sequentially you will be presented with a menu. You can still press GUIDE over and over until you get to the menu you want, then select (without going to the word FAVORITES) or arrow to the list you want.


James, thanks for the instructions, I don't yet have this download on my 622 but your post caused me to go look at my new 612 and this feature IS in the L4.71 software for the VIP612. I just didn't look deep enough before


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## Miggity

sangu72 said:


> Can you program your DVR from their website with the new update?


This is what I came in here to find out also.


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## Ron Barry

Based on the release notes.. This update is not for Web Scheduling. Web Scheduling is more than a 622 update. Based on the reports from the field test, there is both a server and receiver component to the solution.


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## bartendress

Miggity said:


> In Soviet Russia, update gets _you_!


Thank you! I really needed a good chortle today.


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## 4bama

I run in single mode and use the swap function to setup 4 channels I watch most frequently using the "Recall" function on each tuner.

Example: On one tuner I select channel 1, use recall and select channel 2. Now tuner one can be used to switch between channels 1 and 2 using the recall function.

Next I swap to tuner 2 and select channel 3, use recall and select channel 4.

Prior to L4.49 you could use recall and switch between channels 3 and 4 while using tuner 2 and "swap" tuners and switch between channels 1 and 2 using tuner 1 and recall.

Now, with L4.49, tuner 1 works as expected allowing me to switch between channels 1 and 2 with "recall".

However, swapping to tuner 2 and using recall does not work. Instead of being able to switch between channels 3 and 4 it actually switches between channel 3 and channel 2 (or what ever channel you left tuner 1 setup for recall).

It seems L4.49 has only one memory slot setup for the "recall" function and no matter which tuner you swap to the recall function takes you to that one channel.

Someone else using single mode may want to verify this. As I said, it's a minor bug.


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## BillJ

4bama said:


> I run in single mode and use the swap function to setup 4 channels I watch most frequently using the "Recall" function on each tuner.
> 
> Example: On one tuner I select channel 1, use recall and select channel 2. Now tuner one can be used to switch between channels 1 and 2 using the recall function.
> 
> Next I swap to tuner 2 and select channel 3, use recall and select channel 4.
> 
> Prior to L4.49 you could use recall and switch between channels 3 and 4 while using tuner 2 and "swap" tuners and switch between channels 1 and 2 using tuner 1 and recall.
> 
> Now, with L4.49, tuner 1 works as expected allowing me to switch between channels 1 and 2 with "recall".
> 
> However, swapping to tuner 2 and using recall does not work. Instead of being able to switch between channels 3 and 4 it actually switches between channel 3 and channel 2 (or what ever channel you left tuner 1 setup for recall).
> 
> It seems L4.49 has only one memory slot setup for the "recall" function and no matter which tuner you swap to the recall function takes you to that one channel.
> 
> Someone else using single mode may want to verify this. As I said, it's a minor bug.


I'm confused. I have tried to do what you say to get 4 channels and it never worked. Not on L4.48 or previous releases in the last year. I've always only been able switch between 3 channels. Maybe you had an oddball receiver with a bug and L4.49 "fixed" it. :hurah:


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## TulsaOK

BillJ said:


> I'm confused. I have tried to do what you say to get 4 channels and it never worked. Not on L4.48 or previous releases in the last year. I've always only been able switch between 3 channels. Maybe you had an oddball receiver with a bug and L4.49 "fixed" it. :hurah:


I'm still on L4.48 and I'm able to switch only three channels.


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## mscroggi

They didn't deliver the ability to turn off popup 908 (your remote is set to control your tv,vcr etc)?

geez.... I would think resolving this annoyance would be a high priority.. I am getting really sick of it and its beginning to wear on me.. On the tech chat, they sounded like it would be SPRING before it would be resolved... I couldn't believe my ears...


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## hokie-dk

I lost part of my paid programming (ESPN2HD among others) the same day I received the update to L4.49. Coincidence? Anyway, a call to E* restored service in less than five minutes. I was pleasantly surprised at the quick resolution.


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## Henry

Can the 622 be recording something at update time (3AM) and still recieve the L4.49 release?


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## tnsprin

HDG said:


> Can the 622 be recording something at update time (3AM) and still recieve the L4.49 release?


Updates DO NOT come at the nightly maintenance. Once they put up an update and set the info to match your 622, it can upgrade any time your machine is "off". Often occurs in the middle of the day.


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## James Long

The important note is that your receiver must be "off" (both TV1 and TV2). That nightly reboot turns off the receiver ... so updates do often follow it, but if (and only if) your receiver is targeted you can get the update at any time of the day. If your receiver isn't targeted there is nothing to do but wait.

BTW: If you have a regular timer at the reboot mark you may want to move your reboot time to later in the morning. I have my 622 reboot time set for 4:05am (and my 211 is set for 7:00am). I'm more likely to be watching or recording at 3am than 4am.


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## Henry

Thanks to both of you. I always wondered if the nightly maintenance was exclusive to the EPG, or whether software updates were included.

Yes, James, I have moved my update window to 4:50am from 3am, just in case. And from what I'm getting from your collective replies, when I'm expecting a software update, it wouldn't hurt to shut down the 622 during the day and hope to catch the update if I'm in queue.

Thanks again, guys. :grin:


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## mrplow

No more Reset HDMI


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## TulsaOK

tnsprin said:


> Updates DO NOT come at the nightly maintenance. Once they put up an update and set the info to match your 622, it can upgrade any time your machine is "off". Often occurs in the middle of the day.


My updates have always occurred at the nightly maintenance, at least on my receiver. I never turn my machine "off" and I doubt that it ever goes into standby on it's own. Thus, my updates always occur at 7:00am during the reboot and the EPG update.


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## tnsprin

About 3 the is morning (not the maintenance time set for either of my machines). I was wakened when the ViP622 in my bedroom started not one but several reboots. After one of them I did managed to check the software level and it is now at L4.49, which it wasn't at last evening. I turned off the power to it for now to allow for sleep.

I went to check my other ViP622 (which has a high serial number), and it too was rebooting and now has L4.449. I did pull the power and let this one reboot, and have let it run while I posted this. At the moment it appears to have stopped rebooting. I'll check in the morning to see if the one in the bedroom is now also has stopped. Meanwhile I'm going back to go back to sleep.


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## DarkBeer

Don't know if my 722 received the update last night or not, but when I woke up this morning I heard the fan running, then it stopped. A few minutes later it started again, and flashed all the lights on the front of the 722. I tried to power it on but it wouldn't power up. Unplugged power for about 5 minutes, then powered on again. Received one light, but nothing on the TV, then the fan started up again, all lights flashed, the fan ran for a minute or two, then silence, and still can't turn it on. Sounds like a dead receiver to me. Hope this isn't widespread.


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## zlensman

I'm getting the update to L4.49 over and over again with a reboot after each time. There's definitely something wrong with it.


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## steelhorse

I also have had several reboots. I pulled the plug and after the replug, it seems to have settled down. It was working when I left for work. If the wife calls po'ed I will know it is still rebooting.


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## DAG

Awoke this morning to find my autotune timer did not fire and the TV showed a slowly moving bar of a an update coming in. This finished, there appeared a warning screen not to unplug, etc., then the whole process repeated over again and again. It's 7:15AM now local time, updates are set at 3AM. I suspect this has been going on all night, at least since 3AM. After a front panel power off reset, I got an old VGA/DOS looking screen that warned about boot recovery and the same behavior. It finished its thing, now leaving me a working receiver at 4.48 still.

I see I'm not the only one who has had this problem. Will 4.49 update do the same thing again tomorrow morning? Will DISH owe me a new reciever? Will they pull this update from the stream? Will I lose all my recorded show in the process? STAY TUNED FOR MORE SUSPENSE!

Addendum: I called DISH tech support and told them what was going on. They were very thankful and admitted to having many calls this morning about the same problem. Wait until the rest of the country starts to wake up...

Back to the drawing board DISH.


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## ChuckA

Both my 622 and 722 already had 449 but this morning they are both in a download reboot loop. Guess I'll pull the plug on them both and see if that does stop it.


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## DarkBeer

Apparently my receiver finally snapped out of the loop. Not sure what version is on it at the moment as I'm at work, so will check it again when I go home for lunch. Apparently the unplug and replug eventually got it through whatever issue it was having.


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## tnsprin

I see that others have spotted the same problem and came to the same conclusion on what is happenging. 

Did they make a mistake in the info that says what machines to target, including that l4.49 replaces l4.49?

I assumes Dish may know the problem by now, but I didn't call them. Does anyone know or should we inundate them with calls.


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## BillJ

My oldest 622 got 4.49 last night. Apparently some problem because this morning at 6:20 it had a "do not do anything" message. Eventually rebooted and has been fine since (knock on wood). Overnight updates are supposed to occur at 3 AM. First time I've seen it happen this late. 

My other 622 still has 4.48. Usually lags about 2 weeks in updating that one.


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## DAG

tnsprin said:


> I assumes Dish may know the problem by now, but I didn't call them. Does anyone know or should we inundate them with calls.


Doesn't hurt to call them. When I did, I pointed them to this website as well.


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## bkleven

My 622 is set to do updates at 2 a.m.

It's currently 6:23 a.m. MST, and I have the 303 message about updating memory and don't turn off power to the machine.

I'm guessing it has been through the loop at least 4 times, but I have no way of knowing for sure.


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## derwin0

DarkBeer said:


> Don't know if my 722 received the update last night or not, but when I woke up this morning I heard the fan running, then it stopped. A few minutes later it started again, and flashed all the lights on the front of the 722. I tried to power it on but it wouldn't power up. Unplugged power for about 5 minutes, then powered on again. Received one light, but nothing on the TV, then the fan started up again, all lights flashed, the fan ran for a minute or two, then silence, and still can't turn it on. Sounds like a dead receiver to me. Hope this isn't widespread.


My 622 is doing the exact same thing. :nono2:
Unplugging it and doing a hard reset did fix matters either.


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## ChuckA

A power cord reset does not stop mine from doing the download/reboot. Reported to Dish.


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## Presence

Ack, endless reboots!


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## sleepy hollow

ChuckA said:


> ... For me, a power cord reset did not stop the download cycle.


While I was watching the 622, starting at about 6:30am, the message boxes all warned against doing any sort of reboot - basically leave the receiver alone. Also, there was a progress bar or other indication of activity when it was not blank, so I figured I'd obey the instructions. It did eventually work as I stated. Also, I did not see endless reboots, but did see two separate and different downloads of program info and one download of "receiver memory" (was the term used I think, and this screen had no progress indicator).

I never saw an indication of a new software download, which I have seen before, though I may have come in at the end of that cycle when I turned on the TV. However, I don't recall seeing this particular set of events before during a software update.

I'll see what I've got when I get home tonight.


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## Stewart Vernon

My ViP622 was doing this as well this morning. I have my "nightly" update set to 9am, so I knew something wasn't right when it was rebooting at 6am... but after seeing it lather-rinse-repeat for a few iterations, I turned it on while it was in the "standby break", monkeyed around a bit.. and then turned it back to standby.

I haven't been watching it like a hawk, but it seems to have stopped the cycle of repeated non-updating. I did notice that it was on L449, so at least one of the cycles must have processed properly.


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## tnsprin

Just talked to one of the CSR's handling technical support. He hadn't heard that this was reported. But he owns a 622 and had also noticed that for some reason it was downloading software this morning before he came in (he was already on l4.49). He had thought it was odd. He quickly filed a report.

A guess we all need to file reports until we start hearing them say they are already working on the problem.


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## tnsprin

I have just completed half a hour without a reboot on one of my machines that is powered off. Hopefully they have now fixed the info on the download (or perhaps pulled it completely).


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## DAG

ChuckA said:


> A power cord reset does not stop mine from doing the download/reboot. Reported to Dish.


Try holding down the front panel button until "something" happens. This worked for me, bringing an ugly "boot recovery" screen and eventually back to 4.48. I did not have 4.49 at any time as far as I know.

Nice SNAFU Dish has gotten themselves into. I'm surprised that there is still a customer rep who has not heard about this. I'd think something as apparently widespread as this would prompt a notice system wide to all service reps. Maybe I'm thinking too much. Or maybe it's not as widespread as we think at this time.


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## DarkBeer

Well, what I thought was fixed apparently isn't. Just received a call from the wife that after our daughter turned the receiver off, it went back to reboot loop, so guess I will try again at lunch. Sounds like the prudent thing to do is leave the receiver on if you manage to get it working so it doesn't get a chance to try another download. I tried using the online chat for a suggestion in how to fix it, but the rep told me I would need to be in front of my TV/receiver in order for them to help me.


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## TulsaOK

DarkBeer said:


> Don't know if my 722 received the update last night or not, but when I woke up this morning I heard the fan running, then it stopped. A few minutes later it started again, and flashed all the lights on the front of the 722. I tried to power it on but it wouldn't power up. Unplugged power for about 5 minutes, then powered on again. Received one light, but nothing on the TV, then the fan started up again, all lights flashed, the fan ran for a minute or two, then silence, and still can't turn it on. Sounds like a dead receiver to me. Hope this isn't widespread.


It sounds like you interrupted an update. That can be catastrophic.


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## TulsaOK

Hasn't L4.49 been spooling for quite a while? I wonder why it's just now being reported that receivers are rebooting endlessly? I got L4.49 this morning and it appears to be fine.


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## DAG

It started spooling 6 days ago as a partial release. Judging by the messages here, it is still not clear to me that this problem is purely related to a failed attempt at a software update or some other factor that occurred this morning.

There are two mentions of this update in the tech portal however:

*2/20/2007: 1003 Software Version L4.49 for ViP 622 DVR

Effective Thursday, February 21st, Engineering plans to spool a PARTIAL PHASE of software version L4.49 for the ViP 622 DVR receiver. This is primarily a non-forced maintenance release available at ALL satellite locations.

At this time L4.48 and L4.49 will be the valid software versions for the ViP 622 DVR.

and

2/25/2007: 1316 Software Version L4.49 for ViP 622 DVR

Effective Tuesday, February 26th, Engineering plans to spool a PARTIAL PHASE of software version L4.49 for the ViP 622 DVR receiver. This is primarily a non-forced maintenance release available at ALL satellite locations.

At this time L4.48 and L4.49 will be the valid software versions for the ViP 622 DVR.*

I wonder if this new spooled version is the problem. Perhaps it is not the same as the one spooled on 2/20...


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## plarkinjr

TulsaOK said:


> Hasn't L4.49 been spooling for quite a while? I wonder why it's just now being reported that receivers are rebooting endlessly? I got L4.49 this morning and it appears to be fine.


I'd be willing to bet its not directly related to the content of the code.... may be an entirely unrelated issue, which might also be interrupting the deployment of the new code. 
In my line of work, its common for folks not directly involved to jump to the conclusion that an unrelated issue that crops up during (or shortly after) another event is the result of that event.

I'm really interested to know what's going on... but we may never know for sure.


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## 921Blues

Both of my 722s are in the endless reboot loop. There is a small window right after reboot and before download that you can turn the receiver on and break out of the loop, but when I turn it off, it goes right back into the loop.

Any updates or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks DISH!!! Once again it wasn't broke and you fixed it!!!

Mike


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## mworks

My 722 just did the update about an hour ago.
So far no problems.


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## ChuckA

It is not a reboot problem. The reboot is done after a new version of the software is installed. The problem is (or was) that the receiver was downloading and installing L4.49 over and over. I have had L4.49 for days and this morning both receivers were installing it. It sounds just like someone suggested earlier that they messed up the software specification such that L4.49 should be replaced with L4.49 and therefore each time the receiver checked, it installed it.

For me at least, the problem has stopped. I did nothing to one receiver and the other I power cord reset, so it looks like it will stop by itself.


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## rustamust

My 622 rec. L4.49 this AM and so far just fine.


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## Henry

After last night's download, my 622 is now operating on L4.49. The update went off without a hitch ... however, the spin-up problems that my Seagate 750GB EHD was experiencing under L4.48 have not changed. Whatever HDD enhancement they included in L4.49 are not addressing the Seagate problems.


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## Stewart Vernon

plarkinjr said:


> I'd be willing to bet its not directly related to the content of the code.... may be an entirely unrelated issue, which might also be interrupting the deployment of the new code.
> In my line of work, its common for folks not directly involved to jump to the conclusion that an unrelated issue that crops up during (or shortly after) another event is the result of that event.
> 
> I'm really interested to know what's going on... but we may never know for sure.


Probably one guess is as good as another. If I were guessing... I see two potential problems that could result in the same error as this morning...

The code itself has a glitch in its "should I download this thing I see in the stream" routine... such that it always thinks it should download and apply whatever it sees. If they did partial spool last week then took it down over the weekend and put it back in the stream last night, this could explain why some people had it fine for several days.

Another option is that the code itself is just fine.. but somehow what was spooled last night was uplinked with an errant coding such that it always looked like it was a newer version than what your receiver had.

We may never know what happened... but my money is on one of the two guesses I just made.


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## plasmacat

I got 4.49 last night but didn't check it out til this morning. HDNET Movies and UniHD are redded out and I can't get them w/o subscription. I got them just fine last night. WTF?

OK - I just got off the phone with Dish and he had me reboot and those channels are back. Whew!


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## MikeHou

I got 4.49 last night also. When I awoke this morning, the 622 was whirring away loudly, something I've read about here, but have never experienced. There were no lights on, and no display making it to the TV. I tried soft reset, and it did not react at all (still whirring). I pulled the power plug for about 30 seconds, put it back, and it went thru its startup routine and was eventually back in business, and no whirring. 

Haven't heard from the wife, so I can assume it's still good. Will find out for sure tonight.


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## Henry

My understanding is that the reciever re-boots itself as part of the nightly EPG/software downloads. Is it also advisable to perform a hard (unplug) re-boot on top of that to get the new software to kick in?


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## Stewart Vernon

HDG said:


> My understanding is that the reciever re-boots itself as part of the nightly EPG/software downloads. Is it also advisable to perform a hard (unplug) re-boot on top of that to get the new software to kick in?


No. Under normal conditions you would not want to unplug and re-plug your receiver for that purpose. It shouldn't cause a problem, but should not be necessary unless you are experiencing problems.


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## P Smith

Looks like new batch pulled out - too many bad reports !


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## SaltiDawg

sleepy hollow said:


> While I was watching the 622, starting at about 6:30am, the message boxes all warned against doing any sort of reboot - basically leave the receiver alone. Also, there was a progress bar or other indication of activity when it was not blank, so I figured I'd obey the instructions. It did eventually work as I stated. Also, I did not see endless reboots, but did see two separate and different downloads of program info and one download of "receiver memory" (was the term used I think, and this screen had no progress indicator).
> 
> I never saw an indication of a new software download, which I have seen before, though I may have come in at the end of that cycle when I turned on the TV. However, I don't recall seeing this particular set of events before during a software update.
> 
> I'll see what I've got when I get home tonight.


We had exactly the same experience this AM with our two 622's. Both had a message asking us to not disturb them. We didn't. Update completed on both.


----------



## P Smith

I'm thinking Dish have some threshold for stop spooling new FW, like getting 10+ bad reports. 
What exactly happened with the L4.49.


----------



## ChuckA

There was a stream update that updated its same level so everytime the software updated it thought it needed another update. It seemed to be fixed around 8:00 am central time.


----------



## Grandude

Both of my 622s updated sometime in the night and both are working fine this morning. NO constant reboots.


----------



## tomcrown1

I have also got into the endless update. guess what I got the L5.01 with floders and native res then I turned the box off got into update again went ot work.

To clairfly keep your receiver on once the reboot stop you will be able to use the box and who knows one of the software maybe a beta release.


----------



## zlensman

After I noticed the constant reboots on my 622 this morning, I pulled the A/C power cord (between updates, of course). I left it unplugged until lunch time, then plugged it back in. Since then, it has not been updating or rebooting even when at off/standby. It still has L4.49.

I noticed a couple of counters in the diagnostics screen (Menu->6->3). Number 11, "Successful Downloads: 38" which I _think_ was being incremented each time the firmware was re-written. Also, counter 12 says "Previous Software: L449". So it probably was writing L4.49 overtop of L4.49.


----------



## tnsprin

Grandude said:


> Both of my 622s updated sometime in the night and both are working fine this morning. NO constant reboots.


The stream was apparently fixed about 9am EST. So 6AM PST. And if you managed to turn on your receiver when it wasn't in the download/install cycle, it worked fine. Probably you just missed seeing the problem.


----------



## tnsprin

Back to discussing the new software itself.

I like the new favorite popup. Note that you have to enable it in your favorites preferences. Wouldn't have been my choice of next feature to add to the GUI, but if you have all your favorite list populated, its faster and surer than repeatedly hitting the guide button.

I think they did rollout the L4.49 to everyone (might have been a mistake caused by the way they marked the L4.49 download). My one machine is a very high number receiver and always has been in the last wave to get updates. If not a mistake, I was wondering if the Updates for Satellite support were needed before the rollout of some of the new HD channels.


----------



## beetle02

My update for my 722 came this morning. I turned the TV on at 4:00 this morning and it was updating. My broadband connection is working again, it had quit working at the L4.48 update. So far everything is working fine.

I just now noticed that the first thing that was recorded after the update started 20 minutes late. I looked in the history and it showed it recorded OK and showed the start time as 0650 instead of 0630. All the other recordings today have done fine.


----------



## odbrv

zlensman said:


> I'm getting the update to L4.49 over and over again with a reboot after each time. There's definitely something wrong with it.


I was having the same problem. I had to do a reboot to get it to stabalize.


----------



## JmC

This morning I also received L449 complete with reboot loop. I ended up pulling the plug.

I had hopes that the issue with FreeAgent Pro and is spin down timer would be solved. (I know I could disable the timer, but I don't want the drive running all the time. It isn't used all that offen.).

Last time I called the agent said that it is scheduled to be fixed in early 2008. I guess Feb 26th is too early.

Still can't access the drive after the inactivity timer expires.


----------



## Gremraf

Guess I was one of the lucky ones that good a clean upgrade today.


----------



## ZBoomer

My 622 updated last night, no problems. When I turned it on at 6am central, screen was black, and it must have been cleaning up.

A minute or two later it came back, working fine.

My 622 is over a year old, rock solid, never had any problems. I hope it stays that way! (Including my Maxtor external drive which works flawlessly.)


----------



## adk0212

Just noticed something new in 4.49: After deleting a recording from within a folder, focus remains in the folder. Previously you were thrown back to the top level which made deleting several shows from a folder very annoying. I still would like to see a tivo-esque one-button-delete feature, but this is a step in the right direction.


----------



## TulsaOK

After L4.49 (this morning), I can no longer access my USB drive. Menu - 4 - 2 - 1 = reboot. Thanks for the update.


----------



## TulsaOK

Gremraf said:


> Guess I was one of the lucky ones that good a clean upgrade today.


That's what I thought as well until I tried to access my USB drive.


----------



## Ron Barry

TulsaOK said:


> After L4.49 (this morning), I can no longer access my USB drive. Menu - 4 - 2 - 1 = reboot. Thanks for the update.


I was able to access mine post L4.49. What I would try...

1) Power down your USB Drive.
2) Reboot your 622 using hard cord reset.
3) Power up your USB Drive.

See if you can access the drive.. Something worth trying.


----------



## pculley

When I first turned on my machine, (6:30pm) it was showing all the HD shows as red, not authorized including the locals. I started to call DISH but also started a reboot. The reboot took much longer than previous, about 4 minutes before the first screen for antenna tests showed up. I thought it was toast so I tried rebooting a couple of times before waiting long enough to get to that screen.

Once it got going again, it seemed ok so I watched some recorded shows.

Later (8:15pm) I went to look at this evenings shows, I had a couple of OTA shows set to record this evening and they did not record. They guide did not indicate that any shows for OTA channels were set to record this week, should have been several. I looked at the schedule, and the SAT alternates for the OTA shows were still indicating "skip", due to the OTA shows timers (which did not appear in the list) as having priority.

Tried to delete and reinsert an OTA timer, but both the new timer and the SAT copy still were marked as skip. I manually went in and used restore to enable some of the OTA timers, hope this will work.

Lesson, watch your timers carefully...

Hope this is only a temporary bug, not some kind of consistent one...


----------



## TulsaOK

Ron Barry said:


> I was able to access mine post L4.49. What I would try...
> 
> 1) Power down your USB Drive.
> 2) Reboot your 622 using hard cord reset.
> 3) Power up your USB Drive.
> 
> See if you can access the drive.. Something worth trying.


Did exactly that, among others; no dice. It appears that I can archive to the drive but I can't tell for sure since I can't read from it. I suppose it could be the drive itself that has failed. I was able to play back programs later in the afternoon. I was about 20 minutes into a program when it ended abruptly. Then when I tried to play back another program, as soon as I selected Play, it ended as well. As if it's a zero record file. Rebooted and all was well. Then it got to the point where it just refused to read the drive without rebooting. Like I said though, it appears I can write to the drive. Also, it takes about three times longer to reboot now. I guess I'll call tech support later today.
Thanks for the suggestion, Ron.


----------



## Ron Barry

Figured that would be something you would try Tulsa but figured I should mention it. Hmmm... So when you transfer something over. You get the status indicating that a transfer is occurring, but when you go to manage things it locks up or does it lock up when you try an play a particular show? 

I got the impression on your first post that it happened when managing, now my impression is that it is happening when you view it. If it is when you are viewing it do you also get it when deleting shows. 

Another thing to try and see if you can narrow down the behavior. Have you tried copying over a show you recorded after L4.49 and see if the same behavior occurs? 

Be interested to here any other reports of USB issued after L4.49.


----------



## Ron Barry

pculley said:


> When I first turned on my machine, (6:30pm) it was showing all the HD shows as red, not authorized including the locals. I started to call DISH but also started a reboot. The reboot took much longer than previous, about 4 minutes before the first screen for antenna tests showed up. I thought it was toast so I tried rebooting a couple of times before waiting long enough to get to that screen.
> 
> Once it got going again, it seemed ok so I watched some recorded shows.
> 
> Later (8:15pm) I went to look at this evenings shows, I had a couple of OTA shows set to record this evening and they did not record. They guide did not indicate that any shows for OTA channels were set to record this week, should have been several. I looked at the schedule, and the SAT alternates for the OTA shows were still indicating "skip", due to the OTA shows timers (which did not appear in the list) as having priority.
> 
> Tried to delete and reinsert an OTA timer, but both the new timer and the SAT copy still were marked as skip. I manually went in and used restore to enable some of the OTA timers, hope this will work.
> 
> Lesson, watch your timers carefully...
> 
> Hope this is only a temporary bug, not some kind of consistent one...


Have not played around with setting OTA timers with Sat alternates as back ups and using the priority in a while, but when I did I personally found that the timers were not reliable and to me there was a bug in that logic.

Unless things have changed... I would try and avoid the OTA with Sat timer as a backup approach. The approach I use is if a show is what I consider a must watch I use my OTA and all others I set using SAT.


----------



## lujan

tnsprin said:


> ...
> 
> I think they did rollout the L4.49 to everyone (might have been a mistake caused by the way they marked the L4.49 download). My one machine is a very high number receiver and always has been in the last wave to get updates. If not a mistake, I was wondering if the Updates for Satellite support were needed before the rollout of some of the new HD channels.


No, they have not rolled it out to everyone. I still have L4.48 on my 622. Maybe that's a good thing?


----------



## TulsaOK

Ron Barry said:


> Figured that would be something you would try Tulsa but figured I should mention it. Hmmm... So when you transfer something over. You get the status indicating that a transfer is occurring, but when you go to manage things it locks up or does it lock up when you try an play a particular show?
> 
> I got the impression on your first post that it happened when managing, now my impression is that it is happening when you view it. If it is when you are viewing it do you also get it when deleting shows.
> 
> Another thing to try and see if you can narrow down the behavior. Have you tried copying over a show you recorded after L4.49 and see if the same behavior occurs?
> 
> Be interested to here any other reports of USB issued after L4.49.


It happens when Manage Device (option 1) is selected. Send to Device appears to finish successfully but since I can't select Manage Device, I can't really tell if it transfered it or not. As soon as I select Manage Device, it locks up and reboots a few seconds later. I've also tried the other USB port with no success.


----------



## Leprechuan

I got L4.49 yesterday morning.
Oddly enough, it re-booted at least twice and I have not idea why. I left it alone and it seems fine.
I now can move saved shows over to the external hard drive, which I had trouble doing with L4.48.
I found it odd that I got L4.49, usually when a new release is in the wild, I get it just at the end of the spool, not at the first two days of release.


----------



## TulsaOK

Leprechuan said:


> I got L4.49 yesterday morning.
> Oddly enough, it re-booted at least twice and I have not idea why. I left it alone and it seems fine.
> I now can move saved shows over to the external hard drive, which I had trouble doing with L4.48.
> I found it odd that I got L4.49, usually when a new release is in the wild, I get it just at the end of the spool, not at the first two days of release.


Are you able to play back programs from your external hard drive?


----------



## TulsaOK

Prior to L4.49, when selecting the sort order of the timers, the default order was by priority and when you selected Sort Options, the default button was Alpha Numeric. So, to do an alpha sort all you had to do was to select Sort and press the select button without having to select an option. Now, the default button is Cancel. Not a huge deal, but why bother reassigning the default button to Cancel?


----------



## devecho

My living room 622 is stuck in the endless reboot cycle of trying to do a Boot Recovery (Error 061). The bedroom 622 was still at 4.48 as of last night. I didn't check it this morning, but it wasn't making the same high-pitched fan noise that the living room 622 has been making for the last 24 hours.

My initial call to tech support was very unhelpful. I got the folks in India who were reading from a troubleshooting script which was useless in this case. They eventually transferred me to an advanced tech person who said they knew about the problem and to be patient while a fix was being worked on. They aren't going to send out a replacement receiver at this time since they think the problem is software and not a hard-drive failure. I'm hoping that they will have a fix soon and that the ton of stuff we have on the hard-drive hasn't been lost.


----------



## TulsaOK

devecho said:


> My living room 622 is stuck in the endless reboot cycle of trying to do a Boot Recovery (Error 061). The bedroom 622 was still at 4.48 as of last night. I didn't check it this morning, but it wasn't making the same high-pitched fan noise that the living room 622 has been making for the last 24 hours.
> 
> My initial call to tech support was very unhelpful. I got the folks in India who were reading from a troubleshooting script which was useless in this case. They eventually transferred me to an advanced tech person who said they knew about the problem and to be patient while a fix was being worked on. They aren't going to send out a replacement receiver at this time since they think the problem is software and not a hard-drive failure. I'm hoping that they will have a fix soon and that the ton of stuff we have on the hard-drive hasn't been lost.


I've found that asking for advanced tech support right off the bat will get you to someone state-side. Tell them you're returning a call to ATS. Usually, they don't have a script for that and will transfer you because they have no clue what else to do.


----------



## tnsprin

devecho said:


> My living room 622 is stuck in the endless reboot cycle of trying to do a Boot Recovery (Error 061). The bedroom 622 was still at 4.48 as of last night. I didn't check it this morning, but it wasn't making the same high-pitched fan noise that the living room 622 has been making for the last 24 hours.
> 
> My initial call to tech support was very unhelpful. I got the folks in India who were reading from a troubleshooting script which was useless in this case. They eventually transferred me to an advanced tech person who said they knew about the problem and to be patient while a fix was being worked on. They aren't going to send out a replacement receiver at this time since they think the problem is software and not a hard-drive failure. I'm hoping that they will have a fix soon and that the ton of stuff we have on the hard-drive hasn't been lost.


Hopefully you have stopped having this problem. The systems should not have been in boot recovery but in a download/install loop(061 is part of the install process). But by about 9am est the same day they should have fixed the satellite data that was causing this. If you still are having trouble you need to call support. I was the first to report the problem in this thread about 4am (it woke me up about 3am).


----------



## Ron Barry

devecho said:


> My living room 622 is stuck in the endless reboot cycle of trying to do a Boot Recovery (Error 061). The bedroom 622 was still at 4.48 as of last night. I didn't check it this morning, but it wasn't making the same high-pitched fan noise that the living room 622 has been making for the last 24 hours.
> 
> My initial call to tech support was very unhelpful. I got the folks in India who were reading from a troubleshooting script which was useless in this case. They eventually transferred me to an advanced tech person who said they knew about the problem and to be patient while a fix was being worked on. They aren't going to send out a replacement receiver at this time since they think the problem is software and not a hard-drive failure. I'm hoping that they will have a fix soon and that the ton of stuff we have on the hard-drive hasn't been lost.


Did you try a power cord reset? seems others have had this issue and a power cord reset got them back on track... My guess is tech support had you do that.


----------



## devecho

Ron Barry said:


> Did you try a power cord reset? seems others have had this issue and a power cord reset got them back on track... My guess is tech support had you do that.


I've tried multiple power cord resets with no result. What's scary is that tech support told me to do a power cord reset while in the middle of the boot recovery process, despite the warning on the screen not to unplug it. I now fear that the recordings on the drive are lost because of this.

I have even tried a reboot with the sat connection disconnected. Didn't snap it out of the loop. Didn't even complain that there was no Sat connection, either. At this point the machine is unplugged from the wall. When I get home tonight, I'll plug it back in and monitor it to see if it recovers. What I haven't done is make sure that the incoming sat connection is good, but I have no reason to think it suddenly went bad. But I can easily put a known-good-working receiver there to test it.


----------



## Leprechuan

TulsaOK said:


> Are you able to play back programs from your external hard drive?


I have not tried that yet, but I was able to move a few more shows over to the external hard drive (EHD).
It seems when in dual mode after the first transfer, it will stop during the second transfer and I get a error message stating that an error occurred while the transfer was made and the the EHD was being used by the other TV.
I switched to single mode and was able to make the transfer I wanted.


----------



## TulsaOK

Leprechuan said:


> I have not tried that yet, but I was able to move a few more shows over to the external hard drive (EHD).
> It seems when in dual mode after the first transfer, it will stop during the second transfer and I get a error message stating that an error occurred while the transfer was made and the the EHD was being used by the other TV.
> I switched to single mode and was able to make the transfer I wanted.


Please post if you are able to play back programs from your EHD. You may be putting those into a black hole.


----------



## PittsbuRgh R

Ron Barry said:


> Be interested to here any other reports of USB issued after L4.49.


My wife had an issue last night with our western digital 750 gb drive - was watching a show last night off the EHD when stopped mid-show. pulling up the EHD showed nothing on the EHD. Reboot brought the list back however could not watch the show that was previously watching or move back. Getting an error moving shows to the EHD (only 3 of 5 moved, however now only showing 3 shows on the EHD v. the 100 or so that were there. Also can't watch complete shows on the EHD.


----------



## Henry

Leprechuan said:


> I have not tried that yet, but I was able to move a few more shows over to the external hard drive (EHD).
> It seems when in dual mode after the first transfer, it will stop during the second transfer and I get a error message stating that an error occurred while the transfer was made and the the EHD was being used by the other TV.
> I switched to single mode and was able to make the transfer I wanted.


Hi, Lep. Don't know what brand of EHD you're using, but with my Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750GB, I get the _"other TV "_ error only when I have tried to access the Seagate _after_ it has gone into sleep mode and I attempt to awaken it. In other words, in my case it's just a series of repeatable and predictable errors (like the confused playback function buttons) that occur once you've unsuccessfully awaken the Seagate - it will spin up, but it's as dumb as a door knob until you do a power cord reboot on it.

E* Tech Support tells me via email that they are well aware of the problem(s) and will resolve it via a software upgrade sometime in the unforseeable future.


----------



## TulsaOK

PittsbuRgh R said:


> My wife had an issue last night with our western digital 750 gb drive - was watching a show last night off the EHD when stopped mid-show. pulling up the EHD showed nothing on the EHD. Reboot brought the list back however could not watch the show that was previously watching or move back. Getting an error moving shows to the EHD (only 3 of 5 moved, however now only showing 3 shows on the EHD v. the 100 or so that were there. Also can't watch complete shows on the EHD.


This sounds like what my WD did. Now, I can't select Manage Device without the receiver rebooting. I wonder if it's a WD issue.


----------



## moman19

HDG said:


> E* Tech Support tells me via email that they are well aware of the problem(s) and will resolve it via a software upgrade sometime in the *unforseeable* future.


Sadly, that funny! :lol:


----------



## Ron Barry

I have a WD essentials 250GB drive TulsaOK. I did not see when I tested it after your report. Might be a contributor to the issue, but I think that there might be more to the store... What type of WD do you have?


----------



## P Smith

Found half-baked new feature ( at least don't remember it in L4.48) - you can change a name of recordings; 
but it implemented with errors - long names will be truncated, decapitalized and max length will be reduced on half ( 16 bytes instead 32).
Seems to me Dish doesn't have QA at all .


----------



## James Long

The rename feature has been there for a long time.

If you don't like DISH start your own DBS company and do better.
This isn't a DISH bashing forum.


----------



## TulsaOK

Ron Barry said:


> I have a WD essentials 250GB drive TulsaOK. I did not see when I tested it after your report. Might be a contributor to the issue, but I think that there might be more to the store... What type of WD do you have?


WD My Book Essential Version 2.0 320 GB. I still consider the fact that the drive may have failed on the day of the firmware update. I'm not a big believer of coincidences but I'm not discounting it either.


----------



## PittsbuRgh R

TulsaOK said:


> WD My Book Essential Version 2.0 320 GB. I still consider the fact that the drive may have failed on the day of the firmware update. I'm not a big believer of coincidences but I'm not discounting it either.


I have WD My Book Essential 750 GB. Did not have any issues prior to 4.49.


----------



## Henry

moman19 said:


> Sadly, that funny! :lol:


Indeed.


----------



## Slordak

Since my receiver upgraded to L4.49, I'm having problems with recorded content playing back with a lot of stutter/unnatural motion. Live content doesn't seem to be affected. The bad behavior applies to content which was recorded both before and after the update, so the problem seems to be in the playback, not in the recording.

Anyhow, this can be very distracting. At times, it seems like things are sort of moving in slow motion, whereas at other times it just looks unnatural. It was quite bad on a recording of "Carpoolers" (off MPEG-4 satellite locals), but I saw it on a pair of movies from Starz HD as well.


----------



## TulsaOK

Slordak said:


> Since my receiver upgraded to L4.49, I'm having problems with recorded content playing back with a lot of stutter/unnatural motion. Live content doesn't seem to be affected. The bad behavior applies to content which was recorded both before and after the update, so the problem seems to be in the playback, not in the recording.
> 
> Anyhow, this can be very distracting. At times, it seems like things are sort of moving in slow motion, whereas at other times it just looks unnatural. It was quite bad on a recording of "Carpoolers" (off MPEG-4 satellite locals), but I saw it on a pair of movies from Starz HD as well.


Have you done the infamous power cord reset?


----------



## devecho

It's been over 2 days that I've been stuck in this state. I've verified that the sat feed to the receiver is good. I've tried multiple power-cord resets. I've tried pressing and holding the power-button to turn off the machine. All are no go. I guess I'm gonna call Dish back and arrange for a replacement. What sucks is that we'll have lost a lot of programming, both HD and SD stuff. The disk had about 7 or 8 hours of HD recording time left...


----------



## Slordak

TulsaOK said:


> Have you done the infamous power cord reset?


Guess I'll try it and see if things improve...


----------



## rhare

I also have a 750G Free Agent Pro and see the hanging problem as well. It may be related to another show being recorded while watching something from the external drive. Some experimentation leads me to believe this, but it could be coincidence.

For those that have the Free Agent Pro, you can download a utility (windows only) from Seagate and turn off the sleep function. The drive will get very hot, but as pointed out, does have a 5yr warantee. You don't have to wipe out the drive to do the procedure, just be very careful on your selections.

Calling Dish is next to useless, "we don't troubleshoot external drives" is the message, but I was able to get them to send a trouble ticket over to engineering after multiple iterations of telling them it was a bug in the new software and that other people were reporting it on forums. 

If you are seeing the troubles, please call them and request they file a report, otherwise they want to claim it is single receiver issue! Also, if not fixed, I suggest requesting compensation (ie. a refund of some of the money they collect) until the problem is corrected. 

I can live with many bugs, but this bug seriously degrades the product, particularly when they charge to allow you to hook up the HDD in the first place.


----------



## rhare

James Long said:


> The rename feature has been there for a long time.
> 
> If you don't like DISH start your own DBS company and do better.
> This isn't a DISH bashing forum.


Would love to, unfortunately the PVR functionality is tied to the content providers (and a satellite system is mighty expensive to build - hence why there are only 2 providers). A long time ago Dish had a PC card so you could build your own PVR I would love to have that ability again.

As far as bashing dish, I find myself in a love-hate relationship, love it when it works, would not give it up, but they are extremely buggy, and have been since the 712. I would love them to open source the receiver and let people fix the bugs/add features.

Fortunately PC class machines are almost to the point of being able to inexpensively encode a HD signal in real time. At that point, it will be possible to build a HD PVR without access to the compressed signal.


----------



## sleepy hollow

Will there be a post of the enhancements that DISH included in this release? Please?


----------



## ChuckA

The link is in the first post in this thread. But here it is again:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=120505


----------



## phrelin

PittsbuRgh R said:


> I have WD My Book Essential 750 GB. Did not have any issues prior to 4.49.


We have two WD My Book Essential 750 GB drives, both well over half full, and so far no problems with 4.49 on my 722. I am totally paranoid about this situation and have put thoughts about using the EHDs on our web server here in case something happens to me (I'm old) and someone else needs to use them.


----------



## TulsaOK

rhare said:


> I would love them to open source the receiver and let people fix the bugs/add features.


I think that's called "hacking". There are other groups for that.


----------



## sleepy hollow

ChuckA said:


> The link is in the first post in this thread. But here it is again:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=120505


Thanks, very much. I now know where to look in the future.


----------



## koralis

Timers seem to be behaving differently now. I'm getting a TON of Simpsons and Family Guy recordings now... apparrently Dish has changed their definition of "new episode" to include episodes from 1999 which it was excluding in the prior build.


----------



## DJ Lon

I was looking for this but didn't see it anywhere...

I've noticed that sat 77 shows up in my Point Dish screen. If 77 is supposedly for Mexico why would it even be a choice for me?


----------



## Ron Barry

koralis said:


> Timers seem to be behaving differently now. I'm getting a TON of Simpsons and Family Guy recordings now... apparrently Dish has changed their definition of "new episode" to include episodes from 1999 which it was excluding in the prior build.


What are you seeing as a Episode and show id? if either of those are zero I believe the receiver has always considered the show new. The 622/722 errors on the side of being conservative when deciding if a show is new or not.

I would check the timers and see if the either the Episode ID or show ID are 0.


----------



## Rob Glasser

Ron Barry said:


> What are you seeing as a Episode and show id? if either of those are zero I believe the receiver has always considered the show new. The 622/722 errors on the side of being conservative when deciding if a show is new or not.
> 
> I would check the timers and see if the either the Episode ID or show ID are 0.


I would also like to add that this is an issue with the guide data and not specific to the 622/722 software. I see this from time to time with my Simpsons and Family Guy timers too. Typically though this is on episodes for the following week and by the time the episode airs real episode data has populated those entries and they are skipped for being old. It's more like the local FOX station has not yet coded in exact episode data that far in advance and when they do actually do it Tribune picks that up which in turn gets to Dish. Right now I can tell you this is not an issue for these shows on my FOX affiliate, KCPQ in the Seattle DMA.


----------



## Mr.72

rhare said:


> Fortunately PC class machines are almost to the point of being able to inexpensively encode a HD signal in real time. At that point, it will be possible to build a HD PVR without access to the compressed signal.


Maybe for OTA ... but I kind of doubt it. There will be copy protection embedded in the HD stream making it impossible to do, at least without some kind of workaround to the copy protection.

I wonder how long it is going to be before the content providers, be it in the TV/broadcast industry, pay-for-TV business, movie studios, record labels or whomever gives up on copy protection and finds another way to protect their revenue stream? CP is not a long-term viable solution.

not hijacking the thread. back to discussion of L4.49.


----------



## Schizm

I can't say whether my new problems are because of the 449 update or not. Just last week my 622 will not come back online after the nightly maintenance and verified I have the L449 software. When I come home from work or check it in the morning, every five minutes or so the fan runs on high and it seems to reboot. No image or sound appears on my TV when this happens. I have to leave the box unplugged for five plus minutes before plugging it back in will work.

I did not have my external HD hooked up when this started. I'm thinking about reconnecting my external HD, offloading all of my content, and then having the box replaced if this is a hardware issue.


----------



## lujan

L4.49 must have had some issues because they have not sent the update to my 622 yet?


----------



## Grandude

I had one of my 622s drop the HDMI signal after the 4.49 update. Not immediately though, but two days later. A reboot fixed it.
I occasionally get scrambled pictures for up to a minute and then it clears up. This was on Dish LIL channels live.


----------



## Tulsa1

Has the spooling of 4.49 been suspended?
I got it on my 622 without issue but never got it on my 722.


----------



## P Smith

Just still there with old criteria.


----------



## NTIMID8

Can anyone please forward a complaint/request.

Why is it we loose the OTA HD feeds when the sat signal is lost. Rain/sleet/snow etc if it kills the local sat feed the local OTA feed goes down searching for satellite.
Its pretty important here with the stupid new 100lb dish with FFS feed and marginal signal strength. 
Seems people would really like to watch something, especially when inclement weather is impeding the sat signal.

Phil
VIP622


----------



## James Long

For temporary outages press MENU then 1 for the guide and pick the OTA channel you want to watch.
If there is an extended outage the guide will not be available.

Of course ... odds are that if the weather is blocking the dish, it is blocking OTA TV too!

(BTW: I tested this by pulling the coax off of my 622 and I was able to change channels in this way.)


----------



## NTIMID8

James Long said:


> For temporary outages press MENU then 1 for the guide and pick the OTA channel you want to watch.
> If there is an extended outage the guide will not be available.
> 
> Of course ... odds are that if the weather is blocking the dish, it is blocking OTA TV too!
> 
> (BTW: I tested this by pulling the coax off of my 622 and I was able to change channels in this way.)


I tried that, but it still did not work. BTW, when you first change to the channel it shows the OTA signal strength (93 in this case) but black screen .When I pulled the coax is gave me a "error detect in switch". It just seema like an aweful bit of code layout that really should be addressed.


----------



## James Long

Do you have L449? How long has your dish reception been out?
Do you have a separate tuner to see if the OTA is lost regardless of the receiver?


----------



## NTIMID8

James Long said:


> Do you have L449? How long has your dish reception been out?
> Do you have a separate tuner to see if the OTA is lost regardless of the receiver?


Its 449 and the OTA is fine on other reciever.
Most of the channels are back except locals and other 118 content. Funny part is I run a switch test and it runs fine.

Detroit locals BTW.

Im going to hard reboot it when its done recording a couple of things. ITs doing some flakey stuff with recording now. one item is recording,one should be recording but does not show in the recorded programs list (OTA) but shows in the timers schedule. But it wont release me to change the channel like all tuners are being used.

Phil
PS The OTA issue was there before 449 but really seems like a train wreck now..hehe


----------



## James Long

Doing a switch test during an outage is not a good idea ... you will lose satellites and channels until you are able to restore the satellite feeds.

My test simulated the problem you initially mentioned ... watching TV, a storm comes that blocks the satellite, you try to watch OTA. I did say that you could still watch OTA during "temporary" outages. And I tested by pulling the satellite feed. - temporarily.

It seems that you have had a much longer outage. After switch checks and reboots I do not expect OTA to work. The receiver needs it's program guide.


----------



## TulsaOK

James Long said:


> Doing a switch test during an outage is not a good idea ... you will lose satellites and channels until you are able to restore the satellite feeds.
> 
> My test simulated the problem you initially mentioned ... watching TV, a storm comes that blocks the satellite, you try to watch OTA. I did say that you could still watch OTA during "temporary" outages. And I tested by pulling the satellite feed. - temporarily.
> 
> It seems that you have had a much longer outage. After switch checks and reboots I do not expect OTA to work. The receiver needs it's program guide.


The Program Guide disappears after a few minutes? I don't understand why it wouldn't be available for longer periods of time since it's a nine day guide. I know that if there's an interruption in the OTA signal, all the buffers will dump but I hadn't heard of this one.


----------



## bonipie

We have the new software. As I write this, my 622 (3rd one) is in constant reboot. We have a 722 on the way. I don't think they have fixed the reboot problem.


----------



## James Long

TulsaOK said:


> The Program Guide disappears after a few minutes?


I didn't say that. The program guide doesn't go away that quickly, but if you do switch checks and reboots that change the way your receiver is set up it will forget the guide information. No guide = no tuning.

Certainly not "after a few minutes". Simple signal loss should let you (and does in my tests) run the receiver at least until the nightly reboot. It is when people start doing the "check switch" routines and dump their EPG that they get in trouble.


----------



## girdnerg

I live in tornado alley and have frequent sat loss due to thunderstorms. I've always been able to switch to the OTA tuner or watch a recorded program while the other tuners are searching for sat. Like James said you have to bring up the menu and go in that way.

The storms don't usually last for more than an hour, so I can't say what happens with a lengthy loss of sat


----------



## TulsaOK

Once I start to archive to my EHD and select View TV, if I go back to check the progress, there is no formation at all. Also, once I start the archive, I get Estimated Time Remaining, but that number doesn't decrement. I think this worked much better with L4.48.


----------



## TulsaOK

James Long said:


> It is when people start doing the "check switch" routines and dump their EPG that they get in trouble.


Ah, I misunderstood. Thanks.


----------



## HobbyTalk

Just got L449 last night (~3 weeks after it started to roll out). No issues yet but really haven't used it much yet. Just noticed that DishOnline is back in the menu (AT&T customer).


----------



## rey_1178

Schizm said:


> I can't say whether my new problems are because of the 449 update or not. Just last week my 622 will not come back online after the nightly maintenance and verified I have the L449 software. When I come home from work or check it in the morning, every five minutes or so the fan runs on high and it seems to reboot. No image or sound appears on my TV when this happens. I have to leave the box unplugged for five plus minutes before plugging it back in will work.
> 
> I did not have my external HD hooked up when this started. I'm thinking about reconnecting my external HD, offloading all of my content, and then having the box replaced if this is a hardware issue.


you're 622 is dying


----------



## phrelin

TulsaOK said:


> Once I start to archive to my EHD and select View TV, if I go back to check the progress, there is no formation at all. Also, once I start the archive, I get Estimated Time Remaining, but that number doesn't decrement. I think this worked much better with L4.48.


I have experienced this. I try to be careful, going to "manage" so that the EHD comes out of "sleep" and is fully functional. Nonetheless, the last "transfer" to the EHD started, failed to decrement after a reasonable period, so I stopped it, started again getting a significantly different Estimated Time Remaining (ETR) which began to decrement. While I had experienced this failure to decrement before, I'd never seen the significant change in ETR.

It's hazardous, at best, to mess with the EHD program code. Contrary to what everyone likes - having choices and looking for deals - it would have been best to offer one 500GB EHD with a choice of silver case or black case. But we're here now holding our collective breaths.


----------



## Scotty

Overnight I just lost my Custom Favorites. The Favorites name was there but you could not select it from the box with the available Favorites List Options selections (ALL Chan, All Sub, All HD, List 1, List 2, etc).

My wife had re-program the personalized Favorites.

Never happended before with two previous 622's and this 722.

Interesting!

Scotty


----------



## titansky

My VIP 622 with L449 continues to *not recognize my USB storage device (Seagate **500GB)* after it's connected over an hour or two. If I disconnect and reattach the USB drive it immediately recognizes it and works ok. I expected the L449 update to fix the "hard drive sleep" problem. I have had this problem since adding the drive a few months ago. *Any solution? *I'm tired of physically detaching the cable and reattaching to access the external USB contents!! thanks.


----------



## TulsaOK

phrelin said:


> it would have been best to offer one 500GB EHD with a choice of silver case or black case.
> But we're here now holding our collective breaths.


My case is black and my face is turning blue.


----------



## phrelin

TulsaOK said:


> My case is black and my face is turning blue.


Me too, every time I use my EHD.:lol:


----------



## P Smith

titansky said:


> My VIP 622 with L449 continues to *not recognize my USB storage device (Seagate **500GB)* after it's connected over an hour or two. If I disconnect and reattach the USB drive it immediately recognizes it and works ok. I expected the L449 update to fix the "hard drive sleep" problem. I have had this problem since adding the drive a few months ago. *Any solution? *I'm tired of physically detaching the cable and reattaching to access the external USB contents!! thanks.


I would call Dish and ask to refund your EHD fee.

And all the troubles are real answer to those ppl who was proponents of the fee and weighted it as fee for support the feature.
DTV getting the external storage for free and have much less troubles then Dish.


----------



## titansky

P Smith said:


> I would call Dish and ask to refund your EHD fee.
> 
> And all the troubles are real answer to those ppl who was proponents of the fee and weighted it as fee for support the feature.
> DTV getting the external storage for free and have much less troubles then Dish.


Dish is slow to respond if it doesn't "cost" them. But it is a great option when it works.


----------



## phrelin

Scotty said:


> Overnight I just lost my Custom Favorites. The Favorites name was there but you could not select it from the box with the available Favorites List Options selections (ALL Chan, All Sub, All HD, List 1, List 2, etc).
> 
> My wife had re-program the personalized Favorites.
> 
> Never happended before with two previous 622's and this 722.
> 
> Interesting!
> 
> Scotty


Me too. I only have one "custom favorites" guide which, though my name for it continued to be there, wasn't accessible today because overnight all the channels had been "deselected". Not a big deal, but one has to wonder why as it must mean some data file either was deleted or reset to "0" bytes.

Last night was the first time that's happened.


----------



## HobbyTalk

No problems with mine plus E*s EHD setup is more versitle then the D* EHD setup.


----------



## ebaltz

Got 4.49 at some point. Everything seems to be working okay so far, including the EHD.


----------



## Todd H

Since the update I've been having audio dropouts every few minutes over the optical out. Reboots did nothing to correct the problem.


----------



## vampirefish

I have experienced the following:

1. Losing my HD signal (more than usual) - and nothing is obstrucing the view. So I go into re-Point my dish (change the transponders), and when I go to do so... it freezes (as soon as I select 'Point Dish'). I have to hard boot the thing. This has happened about 4-5 times now. This only occurs while I'm attempting this on a channel that has been lost. If I attempt to re-point from a channel that is fine, the app does not lock up.

2. I have witnessed my receiver spontaneously reboot only once (knock on wood).

This is annoying


----------



## plarkinjr

Todd H said:


> Since the update I've been having audio dropouts every few minutes over the optical out. Reboots did nothing to correct the problem.


Got the new code last nite, set the popup option in fav's.... watching Idol live, audio (over optical) dropped out. Hit pause, switched TV source to OTA, watched idol till next commercial break. Switch back to Sat, fast forwarded to just before commercial, hit play and audio was back.

No EHD so nothing to say there. The fav's popup is cool.


----------



## ChuckA

I also lost audio for several minutes on Idol last night using just HDMI (no A/V/receiver). I think it was a stream problem instead of a 622 issue.


----------



## moman19

I too, finally got 4.49. While I see no big difference, I noticed last night that my daily recording of Nightline got screwed up. Although the timer fired at the right time, the 622 recorded Leno on NBC instead of Nightline on ABC, What's strange about this is the fact that the program info indicates that the DVR actually did record Nightline. Somehow, it landed on the wrong channel!

I did a cold restart this morning with the hope that I'll never see this happen again.


----------



## James Long

moman19 said:


> Although the timer fired at the right time, the 622 recorded Leno on NBC instead of Nightline on ABC,


OTA or via satellite?


----------



## dishpco

The last 2 mornings when I press select to "wake up" the receiver, I have audio but no video. Just black screen. Power button reset resolves problem but I really would prefer to get the traffic report rather than watch it reboot for 5 minutes. 
Any similar problems?


----------



## TulsaOK

dishpco said:


> The last 2 mornings when I press select to "wake up" the receiver, I have audio but no video. Just black screen. Power button reset resolves problem but I really would prefer to get the traffic report rather than watch it reboot for 5 minutes.
> Any similar problems?


What model receiver do you have? My Vip622 requires pressing the Power button.


----------



## ChuckA

Select works just fine on the 622 to take it out of standby mode.


----------



## moman19

James Long said:


> OTA or via satellite?


I have local HD capability both by sat and OTA. My Nightline ABC timer happens to be set for OTA. But I have no way of knowing if the Leno show (first half-hour only) was OTA or sat because the guide data claimed I had recorded Nightline as planned.


----------



## James Long

There is a related problem in Iowa with the wrong EPG data assigned to OTA locals. Not what you are reporting but possibly related.

If, for some reason, your receiver tuned to the wrong OTA for that recording it may have "forgotten" where that channel was. Hopefully temporary insanity.


----------



## moman19

James Long said:


> There is a related problem in Iowa with the wrong EPG data assigned to OTA locals. Not what you are reporting but possibly related.
> 
> If, for some reason, your receiver tuned to the wrong OTA for that recording it may have "forgotten" where that channel was. Hopefully temporary insanity.


Last night's recording was fine. I assume this was the result of the upgrade and cured via the re-boot.


----------



## dishpco

TulsaOK said:


> What model receiver do you have? My Vip622 requires pressing the Power button.


VIP622. Make that 3 mornings in a row. It wakes up with a select press and I can change channels and hear the audio but it just has a black screen. Must not be a widespread problem. Guess I'll have to call Dish


----------



## Ron Barry

One thing I always suggest doing after a software upgrade ("Especially if you are experiencing something that is not widespread") is to pull the power from your 622/722 wait a few minutes and then plug it back in. Definitely a last ditch effort but worth a shot and it has worked a few times in the past.....


----------



## TulsaOK

dishpco said:


> VIP622. Make that 3 mornings in a row. It wakes up with a select press and I can change channels and hear the audio but it just has a black screen. Must not be a widespread problem. Guess I'll have to call Dish


Disregard the stupid statement "My Vip622 requires pressing the Power button.". I've got to stop drinking so early in the day.


----------



## dishpco

Ron Barry said:


> One thing I always suggest doing after a software upgrade ("Especially if you are experiencing something that is not widespread") is to pull the power from your 622/722 wait a few minutes and then plug it back in. Definitely a last ditch effort but worth a shot and it has worked a few times in the past.....


Thats good advice. I'll try it tonight. Thanks!


----------



## dishpco

dishpco said:


> Thats good advice. I'll try it tonight. Thanks!


Didn't work. Maybe an NVM re-boot? I'll loose everything anyway if I have to swap the box out.


----------



## olguy

I got 4.49 a couple of days ago on both 622s. Not a problem on the newer (by 3 or 4 months) one but the older one (last May) started last night. Watched several hours the night before (all recorded) and during the day yesterday. Last night after about 1 1/2 hours or 2 of watching recorded programs, it locked up and rebooted. When it came back we started where it locked up and it lasted maybe 10 minutes, locked up and rebooted. After it rebooted, I unplugged it for a bit and then plugged it in and when we started again from where it had locked up before it lasted about 2 minutes. I called Dish and after telling the young lady my problem she said maybe, just maybe the file was corrupted and if I went ahead and deleted it that might take care of it. She did offer the option of replacing it. We have several movies so I opted to delete and try again. But it was near bed time so I just turned it off.

Watched about 1 1/2 hours this morning and it locked up and rebooted while watching a "live" program. I called Dish. They're sending me a new one. And the young lady this morning said this is a known problem with some of these units. I asked if it was a hardware problem or a 4.49 problem and she kinda laughed and said they are working on a software fix.


----------



## Scotty

phrelin said:


> Me too. I only have one "custom favorites" guide which, though my name for it continued to be there, wasn't accessible today because overnight all the channels had been "deselected". Not a big deal, but one has to wonder why as it must mean some data file either was deleted or reset to "0" bytes.
> 
> Last night was the first time that's happened.


phrelin,

I am sure it is coincidental that it happened to you and me, even though we are in the same general area. I am 80 miles southeast.

It has not happended again.

I do have problems with two local stations CBS and ABC (Sacramento) recording (both OTA and E*). But I think that is a compatibility issue.

Scotty


----------



## auburn2

Rob Glasser said:


> Effective 02/21/08, L4.49 has begun spooling for the ViP622/ViP722. It looks like it will be a partial release initially. Please use this thread for documenting your experiences and/or bugs found.
> 
> Release notes can be found *here*


I've had HDMI problems since some time in late Feb, didn't have any for a year and a half before that. When I first turn on the TV I get no picture, if I unplug and replug the HDMI then it works fine until I turn it off and back on again. I called Dish and they replaced my 622 with a 722, I still have exactly the same problem.

Do you think this could be related to the new software?


----------



## MVL999

I have a 622 and a wd my book 500gb external hard drive. I have not had any problems with the external hard drive until this latest update. Now I have trouble watching the shows on the hard rive. They will stop and act like the show is over. I can get it to restart after unplugging the usb cable from the ehd. This is a major problem. I tried to transfer the programs back to the 622, but I have the same problem when trying to play them on the receiver. Any help would be appreciated. I have done the resets on the receiver and I have unplugged the power on the hard drive and i still get the same results.


----------



## Westking

Have experienced first problem with L4.49. I lost one of my favorites lists overnight. Also lost all timers for channels on this one list. Thought this was more then a bit curious. Anyone else experienced this same problem?


----------



## dishpco

auburn2 said:


> I've had HDMI problems since some time in late Feb, didn't have any for a year and a half before that. When I first turn on the TV I get no picture, if I unplug and replug the HDMI then it works fine until I turn it off and back on again. I called Dish and they replaced my 622 with a 722, I still have exactly the same problem.
> 
> Do you think this could be related to the new software?


My 622 started doing the same thing the day it received the L4.49 download. Every morning I have no video, only audio. You can re-boot or unplug the HDMI cable and plug it back in.
I wonder if it is related to the TV. I have a 42" Visio plasma.


----------



## bonipie

Update on following message: 722 reboots often, often does not boot up for hours, hard drive failure, lost recorded programs. Only had a couple-says 'Unable to access this feature at this time' when we try to access recorded programs. This was after the hard drive failure.

I have call into Dish. I guess we will try another 722 unless they have a better idea, since people with same problems report to be persistant that eventually you will get a good receiver-like we have a choice.



bonipie said:


> We have the new software. As I write this, my 622 (3rd one) is in constant reboot. We have a 722 on the way. I don't think they have fixed the reboot problem.


----------



## fwampler

Rob Glasser said:


> Effective 02/21/08, L4.49 has begun spooling for the ViP622/ViP722. It looks like it will be a partial release initially. Please use this thread for documenting your experiences and/or bugs found.
> 
> Release notes can be found *here*


Got L4.49 within the last 2/3 days. I have the 622. I've noticed that shows start out with a black screen with sound. I jump forward 30 sec to get picture.

Also, noticed that fine detail on Voom HD and other HD channels is not there. IE blades of grass, fine face detail. Of course this may not be due to L4.49 but changes in bandwidth/compression being used. I tested during the day so maybe it will be back at night. I hope so. I want that fine detail.


----------



## russ9

New favorite guide bug?

When using the new favorite guide display on my 622, if I have the guide at a future date, when I switch to another favorite (or to All HD etc.) the guide reverts back to the current time. If I use the original (pre 4.49) method, it stays where it should.


----------



## Todd H

I'm experiencing another bug since L4.49 was installed. Occasionally my picture will go black, with no picture or sound. Yet, the guide and other menus still work fine. The only thing that can correct the problem is a reboot.


----------



## P Smith

I would start from checking and posting siganl level on each sat/tpn.


----------



## Todd H

P Smith said:


> I would start from checking and posting siganl level on each sat/tpn.


I checked and all the levels are fine. This only started happening when 4.49 was installed. I get the blank screen/no sound on Dish channels, OTA channels thru the 622, and even stuff recorded on the DVR. But the menus and guide still work fine.


----------



## swissy

Got L4.49 late last week. I didn't notice which day.

The only problem was a timer set to record only certain times, recorded a bunch of episodes (Sponge Bob). Unfortunately, my wife deleted the timer before I could see what settings had changed.

Other than that, I see no noticeable difference.


----------



## phrelin

I have had 4.49 since February 20. Two things.

First, yesterday my HBO subscription got cancelled on my 722 only - not the 508s. Don't know if that occurred in the overnight and was 4.49 related or not. (They turned it back on with only two phone calls to tech- the one in India was about to act when our call got disconnected).

Second, when I FF at a slow rate for a few seconds then hit the button again to speed it up, the picture on the screen _sometimes_ freezes where it is until I return to play though it apparently did actually continue fast forwarding at the higher speed. If I hit the FF button 3 times at the beginning, it is no problem. This is new to me.


----------



## JeffChap

Since receiving 4.49, I have been experiencing audio dropouts at irregular intervals. Sometimes they happen about 5 minutes apart, other times it will do it twice within 30 seconds or so. They only last about a second each time. My audio connection is via Toslink to a Pioneer Elite VSX-41 receiver.

The dropouts occur with both live and DVR recorded material. They only occur on TV1. No other source to my A/V receiver is experiencing this, so I do not believe the Pioneer is at fault. I've never had this problem in over 2 years with a 622, so I can only attribute it to 4.49.


----------



## Todd H

JeffChap said:


> Since receiving 4.49, I have been experiencing audio dropouts at irregular intervals. Sometimes they happen about 5 minutes apart, other times it will do it twice within 30 seconds or so. They only last about a second each time. My audio connection is via Toslink to a Pioneer Elite VSX-41 receiver.
> 
> The dropouts occur with both live and DVR recorded material. They only occur on TV1. No other source to my A/V receiver is experiencing this, so I do not believe the Pioneer is at fault. I've never had this problem in over 2 years with a 622, so I can only attribute it to 4.49.


Glad to see someone else is having this problem.


----------



## GiBi

tomcrown1 said:


> I have also got into the endless update. guess what I got the L5.01 with floders and native res then I turned the box off got into update again went ot work.
> 
> To clairfly keep your receiver on once the reboot stop you will be able to use the box and who knows one of the software maybe a beta release.


Hi Tomcrown1,

Did I understand your post correctly? You momentarily received a beta L5.01 version for your 622 or 722 that had folders but, more importantly, a NATIVE RESOLUTION option??!! Please confirm, thanks.


----------



## P Smith

I'm pretty sure it was a joke - L5.01 never been in stream; there is gamma version, but it have ID "CDN1" or like that.


----------



## TulsaOK

P Smith said:


> I'm pretty sure it was a joke - L5.01 never been in stream; there is gamma version, but it have ID "CDN1" or like that.


Dang! I was really hoping to get "floders".


----------



## Bogey62

Everything was working fine up until two nights ago. All of my custom guides have been wiped out! The names I made remained, but the channels selected were all screwed up. I had to remake all three of them.


----------



## Ron Barry

Yeah.. Bogey.. A few others have reported this one. I personally have not ran into this. There is a thread on here about it... If it is, please post in that thread and any details you might have about it..


----------



## Miner

dishpco said:


> My 622 started doing the same thing the day it received the L4.49 download. Every morning I have no video, only audio. You can re-boot or unplug the HDMI cable and plug it back in.
> I wonder if it is related to the TV. I have a 42" Visio plasma.


Same here with my 622 connected to an Optoma RD-50 (non HDCP). I did an online chat with Dish and the CSR reported it is a known issue with the release. I've switched over to component until 4.5 comes out.

Miner


----------



## auburn2

Miner said:


> Same here with my 622 connected to an Optoma RD-50 (non HDCP). I did an online chat with Dish and the CSR reported it is a known issue with the release. I've switched over to component until 4.5 comes out.
> 
> Miner


When is 4.5 coming out?


----------



## joebird

I just noticed that L4.49 was installed. Why? Well, this morning, I turn on the box, and it wants a password. I enter it, then if I go watch something on DVR, and then go back to live channels, it wants the password again. Nice update.


----------



## beetle02

It's odd that the update effects different recievers different ways. The L4.48 update screwed up my reciever (constant reboots and broadband would not work) but the L4.49 fixed it. Yet others the L4.49 update has caused them nothing but problems.


----------



## TulsaOK

beetle02 said:


> It's odd that the update effects different recievers different ways. The L4.48 update screwed up my reciever (constant reboots and broadband would not work) but the L4.49 fixed it. Yet others the L4.49 update has caused them nothing but problems.


IMO, inconsistent hardware components. Every update seems to fix a few and break a few. As they say, "Sometimes you're the windshield; sometimes you're the bug."


----------



## joebird

With me, one of my receivers is fine, the other one decided to lock many (though not all, strangely enough) of the channels out. A simple fix to manually unlock them all, but very strange how that might have happened.


----------



## James Long

joebird said:


> I just noticed that L4.49 was installed. Why? Well, this morning, I turn on the box, and it wants a password. I enter it, then if I go watch something on DVR, and then go back to live channels, it wants the password again. Nice update.


Somehow your channels got locked ... (you didn't do it - the software did!)

Go into Menu-5 (enter password) then 2 and "clear list".

Your favorites lists are likely messed up as well.


----------



## joebird

Thanks, James. I thought it was funny that even though I knew how to fix it, I called up tech support (mainly to see if this was a common thing). Their attitude was "well, turn off your locks"!. Uh...I never turned them on...you did.


----------



## JeffChap

> Originally Posted by JeffChap
> Since receiving 4.49, I have been experiencing audio dropouts at irregular intervals. Sometimes they happen about 5 minutes apart, other times it will do it twice within 30 seconds or so. They only last about a second each time. My audio connection is via Toslink to a Pioneer Elite VSX-41 receiver.
> 
> The dropouts occur with both live and DVR recorded material. They only occur on TV1. No other source to my A/V receiver is experiencing this, so I do not believe the Pioneer is at fault. I've never had this problem in over 2 years with a 622, so I can only attribute it to 4.49.
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to see someone else is having this problem.
Click to expand...

Does anyone from Dish read this thread? After living with this problem for the last several weeks, it is becoming really annoying. Just wondering if I need to call support and report it, or if Dish is already aware of it.


----------



## TulsaOK

JeffChap said:


> Does anyone from Dish read this thread? After living with this problem for the last several weeks, it is becoming really annoying. Just wondering if I need to call support and report it, or if Dish is already aware of it.


I'm pretty sure Dish monitors this forum. After all, this is the best place for information. It wouldn't hurt to report it, but don't be surprised if they've "never heard of the problem". Unless you're talking to someone in Advanced Tech Support, the folks who answer the phones are there, basically, to get you off the phone as quickly as possible.


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## Ron Barry

I would definitely recommend reporting it to Dish Also. Yes Dish E* team definitely wonders around these forums, but to make sure it gets into the system I always recommend reporting it through multiple channels. 

Though Dish and DirecTV wonders the halls of these forums it is in an official capacity so you also want to go through the official channels. 

Any particular channels you are seeing it happen worse Jeff? I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-TX26 and I am not seeing it.


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## AVJohnnie

James Long said:


> Somehow your channels got locked ... (you didn't do it - the software did!)
> 
> Go into Menu-5 (enter password) then 2 and "clear list".
> 
> Your favorites lists are likely messed up as well.


Interestingly L4.49 caused the same total lockout on the newer of my two 622s as well. The lockout issue manifested the next day after the download. The older 622 had no such problem. I don't use custom favorites so this was an issue that was easily fixed.


----------



## JeffChap

Ron Barry said:


> Any particular channels you are seeing it happen worse Jeff? I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-TX26 and I am not seeing it.


No, it does it on everything, including the OTA tuner. I don't think it's related to the content, because if you miss a line of dialogue, you can back it up and replay it and you'll hear it the second time through.


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## moman19

Not sure if this has been reported by others, but it's a first for me: Tonight I was watching a recorded show at 7 PM. About 5 minutes into the show the 622 did a cold restart. There wasn't a hint of a freeze-up, black screen or power failure, and my remote was sitting on the coffee table. Nothing was being recorded and TV2 was probably in standby mode as no one was home. It simply restarted and the fan went right into high gear as if someone quickly pulled the plug. The plug was solid.


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## lujan

moman19 said:


> Not sure if this has been reported by others, but it's a first for me: Tonight I was watching a recorded show at 7 PM. About 5 minutes into the show the 622 did a cold restart. There wasn't a hint of a freeze-up, black screen or power failure, and my remote was sitting on the coffee table. Nothing was being recorded and TV2 was probably in standby mode as no one was home. It simply restarted and the fan went right into high gear as if someone quickly pulled the plug. The plug was solid.


My 622 started rebooting after L4.49 but I was told by E* technical support to plug it directly into an outlet without using the surge supressor. I haven't noticed another roboot since then but I'm not holding my breadth. I've had it plugged into a surge supressor for two years and it never rebooted.


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## moman19

Mine has always been plugged directly into the wall outlet. So that's not it.


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## ebaltz

THey are just trying to stall. They hope that by unplugging it it will magically fix itself when it reboots and they can put you for a few more days. This is definately a problem/bug with this latest software. They should just roll things back to the revision that worked PERFECTLY for a long time.


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## TulsaOK

ebaltz said:


> THey are just trying to stall. They hope that by unplugging it it will magically fix itself when it reboots and they can put you for a few more days. This is definately a problem/bug with this latest software. They should just roll things back to the revision that worked PERFECTLY for a long time.


Call Centers are evaluated by how long it takes to resolve a problem with the caller. The sooner they can get you off the phone, the better. That doesn't mean the problem was actually resolved, but it shows up in the metrics that way.


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## ebaltz

where its plugged in has nothing to do with the problem, that is for sure. Something changed with 4.49 that is causing the problem. THe point is, I now have a DVR that is useless, it won't start and when it does it can't run longer than about 20 minutes before it starts the whole boot and reboot process over again.


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## ChuckA

Then you need to have them replace it. There is no reason to keep a box you can't use.


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## ebaltz

Called and CSR of course said they really only had one troubleshooting thing which was the plug it into a wall. Of course that wasn't it, so they'll send a new box, but of course who knows if that will work and it won't be here until at least Monday or Tuesday of next week probably so that is crap.

Also wrote [email protected]

THe CSR said he didn't see any notes about the problem and whether it was being worked on or not. I told him plenty of people online are reporting the same problem so either that information isn't filtering down or they just lie.


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## ebaltz

Dish called me back to do a survey on how I was helped in my service call. They said the person I spoke with was a "Tech 3" so supposedly their highest level. He didn't seem super knowledgeable for that designation, but he wasn't a foreign speaking know-nothing either.

But I found it interesting that they would call me back to discuss my satisfaction with the call/support.

I said, just fix L4.49. Then I wouldn't have to call at all.


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## ckgrick

Custom favorites ruined for the third time in a week today on my 622. I'm highly displeased.


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## wje

How are your favorites getting ruined? I ask because there is a problem with favorite editing I found a few releases ago. Dish engineering got involved, but they don't actually seem to have ever fixed it. Post details, I may have a workaround for you.


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## plarkinjr

wje said:


> How are your favorites getting ruined? I ask because there is a problem with favorite editing I found a few releases ago. Dish engineering got involved, but they don't actually seem to have ever fixed it. Post details, I may have a workaround for you.


Could you describe the conditions that cause the problem? The rest of us would benefit by avoiding the bug you found.


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## wje

I posted a detailed writeup a while back. In summary, if you edit a favorites list and you have 'ascending' channel order enabled, you have a very high probability of ending up with a corrupted list. If you set the ordering to 'descending' before edits, then back again afterwards, you wont' have a problem.

If you normally use 'descending' order and you're seeing a problem, it's not the one I have.


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## ebaltz

If I get my replacement 622. How will that effect the 750GB of USB HDD storage I have backed up from my current one. Will I be able to use that? If not then that isn't too good of a thing and kind of takes away the benefit of having an external HDD.


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## Rob Glasser

ebaltz said:


> If I get my replacement 622. How will that effect the 750GB of USB HDD storage I have backed up from my current one. Will I be able to use that? If not then that isn't too good of a thing and kind of takes away the benefit of having an external HDD.


It's unsupported, but mentioned in a tech chat last year that you can move your hard drive between receivers a total of 3 times before you are forced to reformat. So, if you've only had this hard drive on the same 622 since day 1 you should be able to hook it up to your new 622 and keep your content. I personally did this upgrading from a 622 to a 722 and it worked fine, but your mileage may vary, it is technically unsupported.


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## ebaltz

Rob Glasser said:


> It's unsupported, but mentioned in a tech chat last year that you can move your hard drive between receivers a total of 3 times before you are forced to reformat. So, if you've only had this hard drive on the same 622 since day 1 you should be able to hook it up to your new 622 and keep your content. I personally did this upgrading from a 622 to a 722 and it worked fine, but your mileage may vary, it is technically unsupported.


OH cool thanks. That would surely be nice considering how much content I have. Of course today the machine hasn't rebooted once. Its so odd. I do hope that they are working on 4.50 and that it will fix the issue.


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## TulsaOK

Rob Glasser said:


> It's unsupported, but mentioned in a tech chat last year that you can move your hard drive between receivers a total of 3 times before you are forced to reformat. So, if you've only had this hard drive on the same 622 since day 1 you should be able to hook it up to your new 622 and keep your content. I personally did this upgrading from a 622 to a 722 and it worked fine, but your mileage may vary, it is technically unsupported.


I felt that my EHD was corrupted and I tried to force a reformat by moving it between two receivers several times. It never did offer to reformat. I'll bet if I had stuff on there that I wanted to save, it surely would have reformatted. I know, don't call me Shirley.


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## TulsaOK

ebaltz said:


> If I get my replacement 622. How will that effect the 750GB of USB HDD storage I have backed up from my current one. Will I be able to use that? If not then that isn't too good of a thing and kind of takes away the benefit of having an external HDD.


It's been reported that even files that would not play on the original 622, will now play on the replacement. Unless, of course, you get a replacement that still has the problem.


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## moman19

I recently installed a second DVR in another part of the house. So now I have a 622 and a new 722 on the same account. My 622 has a 750GB EHD attached to it and I'm told that I can move my drive to the 722 to view recorded shows without concern of losing any data as it's on the same account. Is this an absolute fact? 

Just wondering if others have done this without issue or incrementing the 3-strikes-and-you're-out counter.


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## Sunnyatthebeach

bobukcat said:


> I have 442 on one 622 and 441 on the other but I've started to notice the same thing on both of them, primarily while watching SD programs live (non-DVR'd). I use Single mode and HDMI on both, one to a 62" DLP, the other a 52" Plasma. The program will be going along fine but then it starts to "stutter", for a lack of better word, on the video side ONLY. The audio seems unaffected but the video gets jerky and un-smooth. Pausing, rewinding, etc does not seem to help but it seems that most times swapping over to the other tuner for a few seconds and then swapping back resolves the problem for a long time (minutes if not hours). I have not yet seen this on any HD programming but have had it happen on several SD channels on several occasions. It's more of any annoyance than anything now that I've figured out how to temporarily resolve it.


I have a 722 with L449 and now, several months after the above post, I just experienced this stuttering-video problem, both on live SD programming and on playback of recorded SD programs, while the audio seemed perfectly fine. Did not check if HD programs were affected. Had to reboot to correct the problem.


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## Ron Barry

I still believe the 3 strikes your out is still in effect. I have not seen anything in the release notes to indicate this has changed and I have not seen someone indicated that this is not the case.


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## Rob Glasser

Ron Barry said:


> I still believe the 3 strikes your out is still in effect. I have not seen anything in the release notes to indicate this has changed and I have not seen someone indicated that this is not the case.


That is my understanding as well.


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## TulsaOK

Ron Barry said:


> I still believe the 3 strikes your out is still in effect. I have not seen anything in the release notes to indicate this has changed and I have not seen someone indicated that this is not the case.


When I swapped my EHD the first time, I saw a message about the EHD being assigned to another receiver and it asked if I wanted to re-assign it. I replied Yes. I have since swapped at least five times with no reformat; but one of those times the EHD might have been blank (no recordings) which reset the counter. I'm not going to check it out at this point. I was actually attempting to get the receiver to do a reformat because I thought the drive might have been corrupt. It never did.


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## moman19

All I want to do is to be able to move the EHD freely from DVR 1 to DVR 2 for playback purposes only. I intend to archive shows onto the EHD whenever it's connected to the original 622, but I may move the drive to the 722 occasionally when I want to watch something previously stored onto the EHD. Would each move count towards a limit under this scenario?

In other words, the drive can stay "married" to the 622. I only want to be able to play its content on my 722 if need be without fear of reaching a limit.


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## Ron Barry

Well I think that is where Dish wants to be in terms of allowing the Drive to be attached to the account rather than the receiver. My advice at this point, until we get an official thumbs up I would assume this feature is not supported.


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## lujan

Last night at around 8:00 MDT I noticed that I had lost all the guide data from about an hour into the future and beyond. I did the usual "check switch" and then "test" and it downloaded the guide which I needed because I had three shows scheduled to record at 9:00 pm. I had checked the guide a couple of hours before and everything was there. I don't know what could have caused all the guide data to disappear. Anyone have any ideas?


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## Rob Glasser

lujan said:


> Last night at around 8:00 MDT I noticed that I had lost all the guide data from about an hour into the future and beyond. I did the usual "check switch" and then "test" and it downloaded the guide which I needed because I had three shows scheduled to record at 9:00 pm. I had checked the guide a couple of hours before and everything was there. I don't know what could have caused all the guide data to disappear. Anyone have any ideas?


I take it that this fixed it for you? I'm not sure what exactly causes this to happen but every once in a while it does (I usually see it once or twice a year). However, the check switch and force guide download always seems to fix it for me.


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## Grandude

lujan said:


> Last night at around 8:00 MDT I noticed that I had lost all the guide data from about an hour into the future and beyond. I did the usual "check switch" and then "test" and it downloaded the guide which I needed because I had three shows scheduled to record at 9:00 pm. I had checked the guide a couple of hours before and everything was there. I don't know what could have caused all the guide data to disappear. Anyone have any ideas?


The same thing happened to me about a month ago. This latest software release does have its problems.

I've noticed that no new upgrades have happened for any Dish hardware for a month now and am wondering why. Seems like maybe they sent all their programmers home, or maybe they are all working on getting more HD up.:grin:


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## lujan

Rob Glasser said:


> I take it that this fixed it for you? I'm not sure what exactly causes this to happen but every once in a while it does (I usually see it once or twice a year). However, the check switch and force guide download always seems to fix it for me.


Yes, forcing the guide download fixed it, but if had not noticed, there would have been 3 missed recordings.


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## TulsaOK

Grandude said:


> Seems like maybe they sent all their programmers home ...


Probably so they can join their software testing team.
Or, Spring Break is over.


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## BobaBird

Grandude said:


> I've noticed that no new upgrades have happened for any Dish hardware for a month now and am wondering why.


4 receivers have been updated in the last month. They seem to have stopped posting announcements, but those have proven unreliable. They are doing a good job maintaining the Dish software chart which I echo along with some additional info and links at EKB: Dish Network Receiver Software Versions.

We're waiting for the planned Spring update for the 622/722. With temperatures in the low 90s here next week, and severe pixelation on OTA playback, I for one am ready.


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## Frodo301

Since software 4.49 I have had problems with dvr timer events being skipped for no reason. There are no conflicts of other programs set to record.


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## plarkinjr

Frodo301 said:


> Since software 4.49 I have had problems with dvr timer events being skipped for no reason. There are no conflicts of other programs set to record.


Though the timing coincides with the 4.49 release, I don't think its directly attributable to the new software. I believe it is due to some other unrelated issue. Here's why: my 722 w/ 4.49 has not exhibited this problem, but it DID happen last week on my 510 receiver with P405 software. See http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=125530

Perhaps there's some problem with Program Guide information.


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## Rob Glasser

Frodo301 said:


> Since software 4.49 I have had problems with dvr timer events being skipped for no reason. There are no conflicts of other programs set to record.


What did the history show for the event? Did it indicate why it was skipped? I actually had a similar thing the other night. The receiver said it was skipped by user but I wasn't home and my wife doesn't remember ever skipping it.


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## Frodo301

Rob Glasser said:


> What did the history show for the event? Did it indicate why it was skipped? I actually had a similar thing the other night. The receiver said it was skipped by user but I wasn't home and my wife doesn't remember ever skipping it.


In some cases the event timer and history are disappearing all together  . And these are timers that are firing late at night when there is no one watching the set. I have also experienced the user skipped as well but once again it is at times during the day or night when no one is watching. I wonder if clearing all the timers out and reseting the timers would help?


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## space86

Is 4.50 Software planned for May?


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## snappingturtle

Frodo301 said:


> In some cases the event timer and history are disappearing all together  . And these are timers that are firing late at night when there is no one watching the set. I have also experienced the user skipped as well but once again it is at times during the day or night when no one is watching. I wonder if clearing all the timers out and reseting the timers would help?


*nod* There are definitely some scheduling problems going on. At least there were last friday. I should have written the software version down and called dish. I expect it's at whatever is current cause I keep the 722 turned "off" usually. A new episode of Battlestar was scheduled to be SKIPPED, if I recall correctly, due to it being a "duplicate event", which it wasn't. And there was nothing in the scheduler to indicate that the new episode would be recorded later on.

Luckily I was at home and noticed the scheduling weirdness and manually enabled it. But there were some other scheduled programs for new episodes that were scheduled to be skipped for no reason. Not at home right now so I can't go into details. But I noticed that the scheduler problems didn't seem to be limited to battlestar.


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## Ron Barry

space86 said:


> Is 4.50 Software planned for May?


I personally have not seen any mention of a specific month tied to a release. Usually the releases seem more tied to the following.

1) Rolll out some fixes and features when they fell they are ready. 
2) Roll out because they updated something that is required externally. (i.e. Add new Sat location) 
3) Big roll out of a feature (examples EHD, folder support, DishOnline)

As for knowing when... Well with big releases sometimes that info leaks out but otherwise usually the first indication is on the tech site where they announce it and usually that is only a day or two in advance...


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## Ron Barry

snappingturtle said:


> *nod* There are definitely some scheduling problems going on. At least there were last friday. I should have written the software version down and called dish. I expect it's at whatever is current cause I keep the 722 turned "off" usually. A new episode of Battlestar was scheduled to be SKIPPED, if I recall correctly, due to it being a "duplicate event", which it wasn't. And there was nothing in the scheduler to indicate that the new episode would be recorded later on.
> 
> Luckily I was at home and noticed the scheduling weirdness and manually enabled it. But there were some other scheduled programs for new episodes that were scheduled to be skipped for no reason. Not at home right now so I can't go into details. But I noticed that the scheduler problems didn't seem to be limited to battlestar.


Welcome snappingturtle to DBSTalk...

Definitely would be interested in the details. If you have the timer event info that would be great and the reason why they are being skipped from the history would be helpful.

I have personally have not had any events skipped so it would be most interesting on gathering as much info here so we can try and reproduce it on another box and so E* engineering team can see the scenarious people are seeing this issue with. Being able to reproduce an issue is a huge step to fixing the issue.


----------



## snappingturtle

Ron Barry said:


> Welcome snappingturtle to DBSTalk...
> 
> Definitely would be interested in the details. If you have the timer event info that would be great and the reason why they are being skipped from the history would be helpful.
> 
> I have personally have not had any events skipped so it would be most interesting on gathering as much info here so we can try and reproduce it on another box and so E* engineering team can see the scenarious people are seeing this issue with. Being able to reproduce an issue is a huge step to fixing the issue.


I came home yesterday and confirmed that the 722 is running 4.49.

I'll speak to an upcoming episode of Dr. Who, which appears to have the same problem that I saw last friday with BSG on the same channel.

The other day I noticed that a new upcoming episode of Dr. Who was scheduled to be skipped for this upcoming new episode on 4/18 on the scifi channel. Again, showing "duplicate event" as a reason for the skip. So I went to the schedule and enabled it. I did not see any other event for this program scheduled to get recorded.

I use "dishpass", "all episodes" to schedule most programs, including this one.

Last night I looked at the schedule for Dr. Who and it showed two episodes scheduled to be recorded at two overlapping time intervals. 5:30-7 and 6-7. The guide showed dr. who from 5:30-7 and this corresponds to the non-overridden episode (the regular dishpass timer event). The episode that I "enabled" to get recorded from the schedule has the program at the 6-7 time slot. I do not recall previously seeing this episode of dr. who scheduled to be recorded at all this friday, that is why I enabled the 6-7 program.

There are new programs and altered time slots showing up on friday for the scifi channel. My guess is that there was some updated or possibly overlapping guide data that the event scheduler didn't cope with properly, but who knows.

How often does the 722 fetch guide data, btw? Before the 722 I was using mythtv. I updated the guide data once or twice a day. myth's event scheduler is the best I've seen on earth. But no scheduler is any good if the guide data is old.


----------



## AVJohnnie

AVJohnnie said:


> Interestingly L4.49 caused the same total lockout on the newer of my two 622s as well. The lockout issue manifested the next day after the download. The older 622 had no such problem. I don't use custom favorites so this was an issue that was easily fixed.


Seems I spoke too quickly regarding custom Favorites not being a problem because I don't use them. The lockout "Bug" appears to have created its own four corrupted Favorites lists on my affected (or should I say afflicted) 622. I've tried everything I can think of but cannot get rid of the extra lists. I used M,8,3 to Modify/Clear each of the gibberish lists, but they remain active with a channel 9945 DVRDN entry that cannot be accessed/cleared. The Clear button on each of the custom lists is now grayed out. I called DISH and spoke with a great CSR who told me this was the correct behavior for the receiver. When I asked why my other 622 does not work this way he had no answer but said that he would make a note of it (yeah right&#8230:sure:

The problem is that I like to cycle through the three default lists (All, All Sub, All HD) but with the four gibberish lists, the guide looses focus to this 9945 DVRDN channel when it cycles past them requiring you to cycle back to one of the valid default lists, then cancel out of the guide, then reenter the guide again - and making you do all of that...well, that's what I call a "PITA Bug".


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## TulsaOK

snappingturtle said:


> I use "dishpass", "all episodes" to schedule most programs, including this one.


Why are you using Dish Pass instead of just setting a Timer to "all episodes"? Too many Dish Passes have been reported to be a problem.


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## snappingturtle

TulsaOK said:


> Why are you using Dish Pass instead of just setting a Timer to "all episodes"? Too many Dish Passes have been reported to be a problem.


Humm. I wasn't aware of that. Because I wanted anything with "dr. who" in the title to be recorded regardless of channel or time slot.

Are the problems you speak of related to weird scheduler problems and skipped events?


----------



## TulsaOK

snappingturtle said:


> Humm. I wasn't aware of that. Because I wanted anything with "dr. who" in the title to be recorded regardless of channel or time slot.
> 
> Are the problems you speak of related to weird scheduler problems and skipped events?


Yes.

However, to accomplish what you want, you are doing it correctly. Do you use Dish Pass exclusively or are other timers set up normally? If you only have a couple of Dish Passes set up, that shouldn't be a problem.
Have you checked the number of timers and events scheduled? Press DVR three times to check the events and select Timers to check the number of timers.


----------



## Ron Barry

snappingturtle said:


> How often does the 722 fetch guide data, btw? Before the 722 I was using mythtv. I updated the guide data once or twice a day. myth's event scheduler is the best I've seen on earth. But no scheduler is any good if the guide data is old.


Excellent details snappingturtle. I will give it a try tonight and see if I see the same thing. Looks like you have identified a use case so it should be easy to duplicate on another box. From the description it sounds like it thinks the first episode is the same as the 2nd episode. Could this be possible? Creating a All timer for SciFi only would defin

As to TulsaOk comment on DishPass, If you use a All or New episode the timer event will look at that specific channel and record All or New episodes for that channel. Also, if you do a weekly or daily timer the timer event will move 4 hours in either direction I believe if a timer you created gets moved.

As for DishPass, the only issue I am aware of is that when a TIVO user comes to a 722, their tendency is to use DishPass for everything. Depending on the number of timers and seach criteria used this can result in an excessive amount of timer events. Also there is a known issue where if you have a lot of Dish Passes it can cause the box to spontaneously reboot. From peoples reports it appears the box gets over worked under this use case. I personal use All and New to record a specific episode and use Dish Pass for hunting particular topics like. If you want to record everythign "Dr. Who" related I think the Dish Pass would be the way to go just don't make everthing a Dish Pass is my recommendation. Did I miss something else related to Dish Passes TulsaOK?

As to when the guide updates. It updates each night at the assigned update time.


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## langlin

Just a thought, I have had the 622 record one of the "other channel numbers" using dish pass rather than the one I chose to display in the guide and it then showed " duplicate" in the guide. Remember there are at times up to five numbers assigned to a channel if there is an HD version and an OTA version. I would suggest you look at all channels to make sure it isn't recording one of the others.


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## Ron Barry

snappingturtle said:


> Last night I looked at the schedule for Dr. Who and it showed two episodes scheduled to be recorded at two overlapping time intervals. 5:30-7 and 6-7. The guide showed dr. who from 5:30-7 and this corresponds to the non-overridden episode (the regular dishpass timer event). The episode that I "enabled" to get recorded from the schedule has the program at the 6-7 time slot. I do not recall previously seeing this episode of dr. who scheduled to be recorded at all this friday, that is why I enabled the 6-7 program.


I checked my EPG and it shows Dr Who on to times with BSG between them. It does not show them back to back.... Both shows are the same episode. Can you look at your EPG and see if that is what you see..


----------



## snappingturtle

Ron Barry said:


> I checked my EPG and it shows Dr Who on to times with BSG between them. It does not show them back to back.... Both shows are the same episode. Can you look at your EPG and see if that is what you see..


Yes, that's what I see. But they never showed back to back for me either in the EPG. A few days ago it showed the recording event for 6:00-7:00 as skipped and no other. The 5:30-7:00 event wasn't showing in the recording schedule. So I enabled that recording. But then last night the recording schedule showed event 6:00-7:00 enabled, as expected, but then 5:30-7:00 was also there. So then I went to the EPG to determine which one was legit. Then I nuked the apparently spurious 6:00-7:00 event.

Sorry, I know this must sound confusing and my wording may not be 100% correct.

I suspect new guide data was downloaded and maybe the scheduler did the right thing, but the GUI didn't reflect the change. Perhaps that's why the reason shown for the skip was "duplicate event", but it wasn't evident what it was a duplicate of. 

I didn't actually witness the 722 skip a program, but rather observed that a new program didn't appear to be scheduled when it should have been.

More info:

I converted both BSG & Dr. Who schedules from DishPASS to DVR with the "All episodes" option. More weirdness, just different.
For 4/18, dr. who is scheduled for slot 8:00-9:30 and BSG for 9:30-10:30. I was hoping for it to catch the earlier episodes at 5:30-7:00 and 7:00-8:00, but no dice and no obvious reason. No other programs are being recorded at those earlier time slots. On 4/25, however, they are showing as scheduled for their earlier time slots.

:-/

Thanks for all of your help!

If I notice a program that actually fails to get recorded I'll take better notes right after it happens.


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## TulsaOK

Ron Barry said:


> Did I miss something else related to Dish Passes TulsaOK?


No, I just remember that using Dish Pass exclusively has caused problems; maybe it was rebooting.


----------



## Ron Barry

Snappingturtle...

Press DVR twice to get the DVR history.. What do you see there.. that should give you a real good indication as to what timers will fire tomorrow night and the conflicts that are occurring and possible might shed some light on what might is happening....


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## snappingturtle

Ron Barry said:


> Snappingturtle...
> 
> Press DVR twice to get the DVR history.. What do you see there.. that should give you a real good indication as to what timers will fire tomorrow night and the conflicts that are occurring and possible might shed some light on what might is happening....


Yep. Familiar with the history screen. That's what I've been looking at and referring to as the "recording schedule". I guess it shows both. ;-)


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## lujan

lujan said:


> Last night at around 8:00 MDT I noticed that I had lost all the guide data from about an hour into the future and beyond. I did the usual "check switch" and then "test" and it downloaded the guide which I needed because I had three shows scheduled to record at 9:00 pm. I had checked the guide a couple of hours before and everything was there. I don't know what could have caused all the guide data to disappear. Anyone have any ideas?


Last night I lost the guide again and lost a recording because of it. I looked at the guide at around 5:30 and by the time I looked again at 8:45 or so the show I had set for 8:00 did not record because most of the guide data was gone. It happened on 4/10/08 and then again last night (4/29/08). Do you think it's my 622 or something with the latest software? Do you think I should contact [email protected] or [email protected]? I had to do another "Check Switch" to download the data. It's happening quite often now and not only twice a year.


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## lujan

lujan said:


> Last night I lost the guide again and lost a recording because of it. I looked at the guide at around 5:30 and by the time I looked again at 8:45 or so the show I had set for 8:00 did not record because most of the guide data was gone. It happened on 4/10/08 and then again last night (4/29/08). Do you think it's my 622 or something with the latest software? Do you think I should contact [email protected] or [email protected]? I had to do another "Check Switch" to download the data. It's happening quite often now and not only twice a year.


Anyone?


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## Ron Barry

lujan... I have not had any experiences with lost guide data on either my 622 or 722 with L4.49. How often are you seeing this? I also don't recall any other reports on the L4.49 thread about this..


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## Rob Glasser

The only other thing I can think of to suggest would be to hard boot your system by pulling the power cord, maybe even do it a couple of times, then do a check switch to force an update. If something is corrupted maybe that will fix it.


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## lujan

Ron Barry said:


> lujan... I have not had any experiences with lost guide data on either my 622 or 722 with L4.49. How often are you seeing this? I also don't recall any other reports on the L4.49 thread about this..


It happened on 4/10/08 and then again on 4/29/08 so about every couple of weeks. I'll also try as Rob suggested and do a hard re-boot.


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## AVJohnnie

Occasionally I use the trick buffer to backup a live show because of some viewing interruption.

For the third time now since getting L4.49, while watching a show which I had backed up about a half hour, it suddenly jumped out of the delay buffer and dropped to live, erasing the trick buffer so that you cannot go back from the current live position. It’s like it just threw away the entire one hour trick buffer content. The channel was not changed, no conflicting timers, no warning popup messages, nothing – just suddenly the buffer content was gone and no way to get it back.


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## lujan

lujan said:


> Last night I lost the guide again and lost a recording because of it. I looked at the guide at around 5:30 and by the time I looked again at 8:45 or so the show I had set for 8:00 did not record because most of the guide data was gone. It happened on 4/10/08 and then again last night (4/29/08). Do you think it's my 622 or something with the latest software? Do you think I should contact [email protected] or [email protected]? I had to do another "Check Switch" to download the data. It's happening quite often now and not only twice a year.


I not only lost the guide last night but I lost the signal on all three satellites. I called E* and they did some troubleshooting and couldn't figure it out. They set up an appointment tomorrow between 12:00 and 5:00 pm. I went ahead and disconnected all the satellite and OTA connections and proceeded to watch the three recording I had left in case E* wants to replace the receiver tomorrow. I then un-plugged the 622 and re-connected all the inputs and re-started it again. It downloaded the guide and seems to be working fine now. It has all the scheduled recordings set. I'm not sure if it was a loose connection so now I'm also not sure whether I should keep the appointment. What do you think? Should I keep it so that they can re-align the dishes? I have at least one meeting that I have to cancel if I keep the appointment but I also asked them to call me on my cell before they come over so that I can come over once they call. I only live a fews miles from work.


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## Rob Glasser

lujan said:


> I not only lost the guide last night but I lost the signal on all three satellites. I called E* and they did some troubleshooting and couldn't figure it out. They set up an appointment tomorrow between 12:00 and 5:00 pm. I went ahead and disconnected all the satellite and OTA connections and proceeded to watch the three recording I had left in case E* wants to replace the receiver tomorrow. I then un-plugged the 622 and re-connected all the inputs and re-started it again. It downloaded the guide and seems to be working fine now. It has all the scheduled recordings set. I'm not sure if it was a loose connection so now I'm also not sure whether I should keep the appointment. What do you think? Should I keep it so that they can re-align the dishes? I have at least one meeting that I have to cancel if I keep the appointment but I also asked them to call me on my cell before they come over so that I can come over once they call. I only live a fews miles from work.


I would suggest keeping your appointment. There may be some other underlying issue, i.e. a faulty switch or LNB.


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## lujan

Rob Glasser said:


> I would suggest keeping your appointment. There may be some other underlying issue, i.e. a faulty switch or LNB.


Thanks, I will keep the appointment and hope that they call after my meeting.


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## lujan

lujan said:


> Thanks, I will keep the appointment and hope that they call after my meeting.


They came and found pretty quickly that it was the LNB. In the "System Info" screen, it said under "Details" that there was a "LNB Drift Detected". He replaced both LNB's since I have two dishes (one pointed at 110 and 119 and the other pointed at 129) This was causing the missing guide and the lack of satellites this weekend. I hope all is right with the world now. Thanks for your responses.


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## kenK

Tuesday night I got home and displayed the guide which showed every show on channel 170 marked for recording!

I saw that the recording history showed that it began at 630am but showed no program title. I do have a timer for go diego go that the schedule shows for the subsequent days at 630am on channel 170.

Fortunately I was able to stop the recording. I had to delete it by sorting by size, as sorting by date did not reveal this recording.

What caused this renegade recording?

The previous night I was guide surfing, using the yellow right arrow. In the past, when I had reached the last day of the guide nothing happened. Monday night however, when the end of the guide was reached, a message popped up stating that the guide was outdated and prompted me to download, and that it would take 5 minutes or so. I selected yes, turned off the tv, but left the receiver on so as not to disturb the download.

In the past I have experienced recordings that continued recording well past the duration of the show (for hours), but that only occurred when I recording something I had been watching. This problem has not happened recently.

The receiver has always been set to the default 3am update time...
---
HDTV: sony 3lcd rear projection HD; connected via HDMI
2nd TV: Panasonic analog
receiver: 622 running 4.49
no OTA connection


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## snappingturtle

Hello everyone.

Has anyone seen this? I recorded Dr. Who on Friday. It appears from the recording history that Dr. Who got recorded successfully. When I go to play it back, it shows that there is one hour of recording material. However, when I go to play it back, I can only get about 1/2 way through. Very odd. I'll open a support request tomorrow, but I was wondering if others have seen this already.

Thanks!


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## TulsaOK

snappingturtle said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> Has anyone seen this? I recorded Dr. Who on Friday. It appears from the recording history that Dr. Who got recorded successfully. When I go to play it back, it shows that there is one hour of recording material. However, when I go to play it back, I can only get about 1/2 way through. Very odd. I'll open a support request tomorrow, but I was wondering if others have seen this already.
> 
> Thanks!


I have seen this, although very rarely, on my ViP622 and ViP722 (only once). When it reaches the end, press Skip Back then Pause. Does it show the remainder of one hour in the progress bar? Pressing Resume will play for a few seconds then stop as if it reached the end? That's what my experience was.
I liked the episode where Dr. Who was playing baseball. I think it was called _Dr. Who's on first_.


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## AVJohnnie

snappingturtle said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> Has anyone seen this? I recorded Dr. Who on Friday. It appears from the recording history that Dr. Who got recorded successfully. When I go to play it back, it shows that there is one hour of recording material. However, when I go to play it back, I can only get about 1/2 way through. Very odd. I'll open a support request tomorrow, but I was wondering if others have seen this already.
> 
> Thanks!


Yup - I just chalk it up to more L4.49 strange brew weirdness. It's happened to me a couple of times since getting the L4.49 software. In both cases I was able to get by the false end of recording point by using skip forward to jump past it. Also - in each case, after watching the remainder of the recording to the real end point, I could then watch the entire recording from end to end without any further problems.


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## snappingturtle

AVJohnnie said:


> Yup - I just chalk it up to more L4.49 strange brew weirdness. It's happened to me a couple of times since getting the L4.49 software. In both cases I was able to get by the false end of recording point by using skip forward to jump past it. Also - in each case, after watching the remainder of the recording to the real end point, I could then watch the entire recording from end to end without any further problems.


TulsaOK, AVJohnnie, thanks! Yes, the skip back trick worked to play the remainder of the program.

Let's see how far my support request with dish goes.


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## TulsaOK

AVJohnnie said:


> Yup - I just chalk it up to more L4.49 strange brew weirdness. It's happened to me a couple of times since getting the L4.49 software. In both cases I was able to get by the false end of recording point by using skip forward to jump past it. Also - in each case, after watching the remainder of the recording to the real end point, I could then watch the entire recording from end to end without any further problems.


Sounds like you were more successful than I was. I tried everything but it kept insisting that it had reached the end. Luckily, it was Leno and I got the monologue.


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## snappingturtle

snappingturtle said:


> TulsaOK, AVJohnnie, thanks! Yes, the skip back trick worked to play the remainder of the program.
> 
> Let's see how far my support request with dish goes.


I sent an email to dish. Correspondence was prompt but not at all useful. After a little back and forth correspondence I was told that the information I provided would be sent to engineering but I was left with the impression that I should not expect to hear back on the issue. I also called up on the telephone but was told that my best hope was to follow up with my email correspondence because the best he could do for me over the phone was to swap the receiver. Incredibly, I was told that I might get help, get this, from satelliteguys.com ( i think he meant satelliteguys.us )  How can any company hope to survive with this level of customer service?

Good grief.


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## Talarin

snappingturtle,

I have the exact same problem with Friday's Dr. Who at about the same place you did. I haven't tried the skip back trick yet, will try that in a minute, but thought it weird that we would have the same problem, with the same show, at the same spot. I have a new 722 that was installed 2 weeks ago to replace a faulty 622.

Tal


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## wtf

Has anyone seen a problem with the tuners being messed up (remote works fine, channel up/down shows new channel info, DVR menus accessible, but the video/audio is missing)? I have seen it twice in the last two weeks with my 722 and both times I initially found the receiver tuned to an off-air HD station with signal too weak to lock. Swap/playing a recorded program/etc. didn't get it back to normal but a power button reset did. It seems like the input side is working but the outputs are blanked out. I suspect it's related to the off-air tuner since I think I've seem some flakiness with my 622 also, since I hooked up an antenna for local HD last Fall.


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## Cap'n Preshoot

Over the past week my 722 has developed a new and annoying problem. For no apparent reason and with no warning we suddenly lose both HDMI and Component output and the TV goes to a blue screen. I can switch TV inputs back to Cable & all is well. Our other receiver (222) is fine. We're not losing signal, we're losing the output(s) to the TV.

You can wait it out, 5 minutes, sometimes longer or reboot and then of course get to watch all the startup screens for the next 5 minutes.

It's not a switch problem, not a signal problem.

Anyone else? Any suggestions? Really hate to call for a replacement as we have many hours of recordings I'd hate to lose.

Thanks


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## everette

Talarin said:


> snappingturtle,
> 
> I have the exact same problem with Friday's Dr. Who at about the same place you did. I haven't tried the skip back trick yet, will try that in a minute, but thought it weird that we would have the same problem, with the same show, at the same spot. I have a new 722 that was installed 2 weeks ago to replace a faulty 622.
> 
> Tal


The problem was with the Dr who episode - there's another thread about it.
If you fast forward at 300X to the end, you can then rewind and watch the last 10 minutes or so.


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## snappingturtle

everette said:


> The problem was with the Dr who episode - there's another thread about it.
> If you fast forward at 300X to the end, you can then rewind and watch the last 10 minutes or so.


Thanks for noting that. Interesting.

That episode may have triggered a DVR bug, but it's still a bug. Perhaps it was data stream corruption of some sort. That will happen from time to time. But I think the software should be more robust than it currently is.


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## snappingturtle

Cap'n Preshoot;1598647 said:


> Over the past week my 722 has developed a new and annoying problem. For no apparent reason and with no warning we suddenly lose both HDMI and Component output and the TV goes to a blue screen. I can switch TV inputs back to Cable & all is well. Our other receiver (222) is fine. We're not losing signal, we're losing the output(s) to the TV.
> 
> You can wait it out, 5 minutes, sometimes longer or reboot and then of course get to watch all the startup screens for the next 5 minutes.
> 
> It's not a switch problem, not a signal problem.
> 
> Anyone else? Any suggestions? Really hate to call for a replacement as we have many hours of recordings I'd hate to lose.
> 
> Thanks


Just a suggestion and I have *no* idea if this may be the case, but how well ventilated is your 722? I'm wondering how many of these 722 problems might be heat related. If you place a small room fan in front of it, does it still have problems?


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## dhclaypool

Not sure if this is new behavior, but I just noticed it. It's happened twice.

Details: 622 w 4.49 and EHD set as Dual Tuner

While watching on Tuner 1 a program that is in progress of being recorded on Tuner 1, when the program finishes recording it dumps me out of watching to the detail page of the recording with "Watch Live" and "Start Over" being the first buttons on the screen, just like it would be if the recording had been watched to the end.


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## ChuckA

That's what mine does when watching a program that was also recording. A few minutes after the show ends (most likely at the end of the pad time), it dumps you back to that menu. Its done that for quite a while now but I can't say for sure when it started.


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## Scott Spillers

Has anyone else noticed this issue? If you happen to be using fast forward or rewind when a new recording starts on the ViP622, you cannot stop fast forwarding or rewinding the program you are watching for about 15 seconds. It's quite frustrating when you are trying to find a play or scene only to have to it zoom by with no way to stop the video. After about 15 seconds, all of the commands that you tried are then carried out in rapid succession.


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## TulsaOK

Scott Spillers said:


> Has anyone else noticed this issue? If you happen to be using fast forward or rewind when a new recording starts on the ViP622, you cannot stop fast forwarding or rewinding the program you are watching for about 15 seconds. It's quite frustrating when you are trying to find a play or scene only to have to it zoom by with no way to stop the video. After about 15 seconds, all of the commands that you tried are then carried out in rapid succession.


When a recording starts, the commands from the remote control basically are ignored for a few seconds. Actually, I think they get buffered and execute when the receiver gets less busy.


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## MikeHou

I'm having a guide problem here now just starting today. Most channels don't appear in the guide (I have AT250). The guide high channel is 572, low is 02. Haven't taken the time document all that is missing, but one I did notice is 107 (and everything above 572).

I have 4 custom favorites lists, and they show in the list of favorites, but can't be selected; they display in a darker shade of blue, like being grayed-out. They can all be edited, but in that list, the full, reduced set of channels appears with none of them selected. 

This is a VIP622 I've had since August '06. First significant issue I've had.


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## MikeHou

Doh! I just realized, I have all the HDs plus locals. The only SD I have are locals. Looks like they gave me the HD-only package (I do have my RSN in HD!). No music channels. 

Guess I'll make a phone call.


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## Lee Bailey

wtf said:


> Has anyone seen a problem with the tuners being messed up (remote works fine, channel up/down shows new channel info, DVR menus accessible, but the video/audio is missing)? I have seen it twice in the last two weeks with my 722 and both times I initially found the receiver tuned to an off-air HD station with signal too weak to lock. Swap/playing a recorded program/etc. didn't get it back to normal but a power button reset did. It seems like the input side is working but the outputs are blanked out. I suspect it's related to the off-air tuner since I think I've seem some flakiness with my 622 also, since I hooked up an antenna for local HD last Fall.


Just wondering if you properly grounded your OTA antenna system when you installed it? Grounding the mast and installing a ground block on the coax? You could have some static build up causing some issues with the 722.


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## Stewart Vernon

I don't know when this started, but I have at least one definate problem and one questionable occurrance with my ViP622.

I have noticed recently that when I turn on my receiver and go into Diagnostics the connection tests fail. I then see that it has no Dishcomm functionality nor does it see my router anymore. I have changed nothing in my configuration recently to cause this... but if I perform a front-panel reset then it comes back with an IP address from my router and then passes the Dishcomm tests.

I shouldn't have to do a reset every day, especially since it goes into standby every night anyway... so this seems like a problem. I don't know if this is related to L4.49 or if something has started to fail hardware-wise in the receiver but it is becoming annoying, especially when I see that it is failing to call in and rescheduling to try again later.

So, while looking at all that... I noticed something else.

When the household key first seemed to roll out, I wrote mine down in case I ever needed to know it for some reason. Well, tonight I noticed my household key is now different. I don't know when or why it changed, but now I'm concerned and haven't re-connected my external drive yet as I'm unsure what will happen.

IF this key is meant to be for the household and lock drives to them... it seems like this key should not be changing on its own. I did make programming changes to my account, but that shouldn't change the household key because if it does then it is a poor implementation in that customers could never change their account once they activate a hard drive or lose everything they archive potentially.

Anyone else have their household key change recently to a different non-zero number?


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## Sunnyatthebeach

HDMe said:


> I don't know when this started, but I have at least one definate problem and one questionable occurrance with my ViP622.
> 
> I have noticed recently that when I turn on my receiver and go into Diagnostics the connection tests fail. I then see that it has no Dishcomm functionality nor does it see my router anymore. I have changed nothing in my configuration recently to cause this... but if I perform a front-panel reset then it comes back with an IP address from my router and then passes the Dishcomm tests.
> 
> I shouldn't have to do a reset every day, especially since it goes into standby every night anyway... so this seems like a problem. I don't know if this is related to L4.49 or if something has started to fail hardware-wise in the receiver but it is becoming annoying, especially when I see that it is failing to call in and rescheduling to try again later.


The fastest way to get an IP address from the router is not to do a reset but to go to
Menu/System Setup/Installation/Broadband Setup/Network Setup/Reset Connection.
This will ask the DHCP software in the router to assign a (possibly new) IP address to the receiver, which you should see displayed on that screen.

There may also be a variety of problems with your router. Depending on the brand and model, if the router is powered down or reset, it may not recognize the receiver until the next time the receiver asks the router for an IP address. Each IP address in the routing tables has a lease expiration time, which is 24 hours in some routers, which the software in the device knows, before the expiration time has elapsed, to send a request to the router to renew the lease of the IP address for another period. This process may be broken. You could try resetting your router, then going through the Reset Connection process described in the previous paragraph, and see if your problem recurs after that.


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## Stewart Vernon

Sunnyatthebeach said:


> The fastest way to get an IP address from the router is not to do a reset but to go to
> Menu/System Setup/Installation/Broadband Setup/Network Setup/Reset Connection.
> This will ask the DHCP software in the router to assign a (possibly new) IP address to the receiver, which you should see displayed on that screen.
> 
> There may also be a variety of problems with your router. Depending on the brand and model, if the router is powered down or reset, it may not recognize the receiver until the next time the receiver asks the router for an IP address. Each IP address in the routing tables has a lease expiration time, which is 24 hours in some routers, which the software in the device knows, before the expiration time has elapsed, to send a request to the router to renew the lease of the IP address for another period. This process may be broken. You could try resetting your router, then going through the Reset Connection process described in the previous paragraph, and see if your problem recurs after that.


I've already been through all of that. I have two receivers. One of them never has a problem, the other one has the problem about every other day. When it is not getting an IP the "reset connection" does nothing at all. The only way to get the troublesome receiver to find an IP and see Dishcomm is to do the front panel reset.

At this point it can only be a problem with L4.49 OR a developing hardware problem with that receiver.


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## ChuckA

Is your problem receiver hard wired Ethernet and do you have a HomePlug device somewhere in your house?

I use an Ethernet cable for one of my receivers and HomePlug for the other. The one with the cable sometimes does not get its IP address. I believe what happens is the receiver first attempts to get connectivity over the power line via HomePlug and gets a bad connection because it is plugged into a non-HomePlug power strip. But it must get enough of a connection that it does not use the cabled connection and it winds up having no useable connection at all. However clicking the Reset Connection button always switches to the cable port and connects to the router just fine.

Maybe that's not your problem since you have to reboot, but I thought I would throw it out there for consideration.


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## Grandude

Lost color. I was surprised to discover that my 622 which is still at 4.49 went to black and white today. Checked a number of channels and no color on any or them.
Thought maybe 5.10 had downloaded but it had not.

Did a power on button reset and color is back.


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## Stewart Vernon

ChuckA said:


> Is your problem receiver hard wired Ethernet and do you have a HomePlug device somewhere in your house?


I should probably have noted this before... I am using Homeplug with both receivers. I am guessing that something common in the DishComm/Homeplug circuitry is the culprit OR something common in the firmware for both functions... since both are down at the same time and both work when front-panel reset. One receiver working flawlessly and the other sporadically.

What I've yet to diagnose is just when it loses the IP/Dishcomm. It will stay for a couple of days, then I figure it is ok... and ignore it a few days then find that it "died" in the meantime. I can't isolate it to a power fluctuation or anything specific that could be an outside cause. No storms in the past week here either to cause power loss or interruption of satellite.


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## ChuckA

That makes sense since both facilities communicate over the power line. Maybe you have some device in the house that generates line noise when it is turned on and that triggers the loss of connection. The other receiver may be more tolerant or the circuit it's on does not get the noise. Just a guess.


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## Stewart Vernon

ChuckA said:


> That makes sense since both facilities communicate over the power line. Maybe you have some device in the house that generates line noise when it is turned on and that triggers the loss of connection. The other receiver may be more tolerant or the circuit it's on does not get the noise. Just a guess.


Now that's a possibility... we are in the midst of a not-nice heatwave, so my air conditioner (central air) is running quite a bit... Sometimes it kicks my UPS for my computer into a "conditioning" mode... perhaps that does interfere with the Homeplug/Dishcomm as well, and as you say, maybe one receiver is just better at handling it than the other.


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