# Apple asks MS to stop running ads



## Fontano (Feb 7, 2008)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10288022-37.html

Over the past 18-24 months, I have come to accept that there is a place in everyone computer usage for both Apple and PC. And in fact, I actually think everyone should have both as frankly there are somethings each platform do much better then the other.

With that said, I think this article is absolutely hilarious.
If it actually is true, and all indications is that it is.

It is a walking case of the kettle calling the pot black.

Apple can run (The genuinely original and sometimes funny) I am a PC, I am a Mac ads: Which often have taken some pretty big liberties with outdated notions and taking minor things and blowing them up.

But MS runs and ad, which (at least the price aspect) is pretty much accurate at the time of airing, they cry foul.

And yes, they did lower the prices, but the fact still is, MACs are very expensive pieces of equipment to own. From the hardware to the software. Everything is expensive.

I need to replace the keyboard on my iMac and it is going to cost me at least $50, to get an Apple keyboard (and with the iMac look you really can't go with a 3rd party one).

Apple has come up with some really good technology, but they do price it out of range. The 1TB TimeCapsule for example is $500. Seriously now. A WiFi router, with a 1TB drive. Most of the work of the backup is done by the OS on the machine.

So Apple, if you want to dish it out, you have to be willing to take it to.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Agreed. Apple has been running ads that are overt attacks on Microsoft for decades. Microsoft has finally found an effective way to fight back, and now Apple is crying "foul." Sorry, Apple: what goes around, comes around.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I've been using both brands for decades, and I have to agree, Apple drew first blood here. They attacked PC users, and by extension Microsoft. Microsoft has a right to do the exact same.

I also agree with Mr. Fontano that there's a place for both brands, and your perception of value will help inform your decision on which to buy. If you favor style and stability over flexibility and price, you may just be "a Mac." Nothing wrong with that just as there is nothing wrong with being "a PC."


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Personally I don't think the phone call took place and if it did, there is probably some stretched facts. Usually a cease and desist is sent in the form of a letter, not a phone call. That is what lawyers do. Paperwork on everything. 

Agree, Apple hardware is expensive but combine the design characteristics, software, functionality and support system behind the hardware, I don't mind paying the premium. One time I took a computer to Best Buy to get fixed under warranty. It took a month to have the hard drive replaced! I took my iPhone into the Apple store to get fixed. Within 10 minutes I walked out with a working iPhone (they replaced it on the spot).

As far as the commercials, yeah, Apple should suck it up but Microsoft has to be careful. Apple has lowered their prices on many of their laptops recently so at the very least Microsoft needs to update their commercials.


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## MadManNBama (Jan 31, 2008)

Fontano, lets not start trying to bash Apple on the sly. 

Macs are not expensive when you factor in the total price of ownership. This is also something we should all do with our cars, but we Americans, like when buying our cars and computers are usually not smart enough shoppers to figure this out. DirecTV is also called expensive, but I think all my HD and cool extras are worth the price.

I am a Mac guy. Yes my MacBook cost $1500 totally configured last summer. However, I got a free iPod Touch and my laptop will be good for the next 4 years guaranteed. 

My last PC was slow and buggy after only 3 years, while my Macs last for a minimum of 5. If you do the math of each year of ownership, the Macs are much more useful and productive longer. Over the long run, I save hundreds.

Now, I actually like the Microshaft ads, they are humorous. If people aren't smart enough to know the difference, that is fine by me. I like the smaller market share; this way I never need to buy $60 per year virus software.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

To me it's a matter of advertising here, not of the actual hardware. The Mac ads have told the truth about Macs and lied about PCs for years.

Here Microsoft was actually being more truthful when the ads were produced. 

I suspect there's a new round of ads being produced, where regular folks come in to see Apple's lower prices, and notice that PC prices are lowered all the time, people just expect that.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

The Microsoft ads to me aren't nearly as effective anyway. When I hear lines like "This Mac only has 2GB of RAM and this PC has 4". Well, that Mac is likely still faster/more powerful. And the ad where the girl is a videographer. If you're a videographer and you don't have a Mac, you're missing out. As Stuart and the OP stated, there's a place for both brands. And when it comes to video editing, Macs win hands down.

And then of course there is the argument of resale value. I paid about $1200 for my MacBook a little over 2 years ago. I saw a similar model on eBay going for $900 just the other day. I've _never _had a PC hold value like that.

Anyway... It does make Apple appear as poor sports if that phone call really did take place. I agree they should suck it up and deal with it.


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## jsmuga (Jan 3, 2008)

I agree that if Apple actually made that call that is absurd. On the other hand I own Macbooks and IMacs and the quality is far superior to any PC's I have ever owned. I feel in this area you definitely get what you pay for.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Greg Alsobrook said:


> And the ad where the girl is a videographer. If you're a videographer and you don't have a Mac, you're missing out. As Stuart and the OP stated, there's a place for both brands. And when it comes to video editing, Macs win hands down.


It would appear that you too are a victim of the hype. I liken this to back in the day when Borland's Turbo programming tools were the thing but in the real world, everyone was still using BASIC or something similarly "dark ages".

The Mac gives you one or two viable choices that are painfully slow. The Windows side offers several that are much more utilitarian, but also more production oriented.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I should also point out that Apple sells what are essentially workstation-class machines, and PC manufacturers sell lower-priced consumer gear. I'll stack up any IBM or lenovo workstation I've got against an Apple for long-term quality... but guess what? Those PCs cost the same as Macs!


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

The Windows ads are not really that direct or terrible towards Macs in comparison to the Mac-PC ads.

That, and the fact that Apple does really stupid things like making PCs appear with Bluescreens for their network icon...I think Apple should just be happy MS does not take a direct approach like they do in marketing.

Hypocrites to the extreme IMO


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Grentz said:


> That, and the fact that Apple does really stupid things like making PCs appear with Bluescreens for their network icon...


I find that very humorous actually... :lol:


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

harsh said:


> It would appear that you too are a victim of the hype.


I'd rather not turn this into a Mac vs PC war (like I do every other thread.. :lol... So I will just respectfully disagree. Having edited video on both platforms, I much prefer Macs for such tasks.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Greg Alsobrook said:


> I'd rather not turn this into a Mac vs PC war (like I do every other thread.. :lol... So I will just respectfully disagree. Having edited video on both platforms, I much prefer Macs for such tasks.


I'm kind of split. I have used Pinnacle on a PC and Final Cut on a Mac. Pinnacle was easier to use and projects took very little time. Final Cut is more difficult from a user stand point BUT it's also more versitile.

For quick "down and dirty" projects I use iMovie (which comes with the mac for free by the way) but for "professional" projects, I use Final Cut.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Greg Alsobrook said:


> I find that very humorous actually... :lol:


It can be, but it also is a direct slap in the face...and Apple can obviously dish it out but not take it considering how they are reacting to MS's ad campaign which really is not nearly as much of a slap in the face as most of Apple's own :eek2:.



Chris Blount said:


> I'm kind of split. I have used Pinnacle on a PC and Final Cut on a Mac. Pinnacle was easier to use and projects took very little time. Final Cut is more difficult from a user stand point BUT it's also more versitile.
> 
> For quick "down and dirty" projects I use iMovie (which comes with the mac for free by the way) but for "professional" projects, I use Final Cut.


and Pinnacle on a PC is far from a professional suite like final cut is on Mac. A fair comparison would be something like Sony Vegas compared to Final Cut.

I wish someone would come along and make some iLife like apps for PC....it is not that a PC "cannot" do it, its that no one has made the apps. OSX "cannot" do it either without the iLife suite. So many of the video/photo apps just seriously suck on PC....Pinnacle and Ulead home suites for example make some of the most bloated software out there. Frustrating...


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## Ira Lacher (Apr 24, 2002)

> One time I took a computer to Best Buy to get fixed under warranty. It took a month to have the hard drive replaced!


That's Best Buy's service; has nothing to do with the architecture of a PC.



> Apple sells what are essentially workstation-class machines, and PC manufacturers sell lower-priced consumer gear.


Huh? A PC with 6 GB RAM, a 320-GB hard drive, a GeForce 9600 graphics card and an Intel 6600 processor is a formidable machine that is capable of high-intensive CAD, among others. And I would stack that up against the standard, low-priced MacBook any day.



> When I hear lines like "This Mac only has 2GB of RAM and this PC has 4". Well, that Mac is likely still faster/more powerful.


13-inch MacBook Pro: 2.26GHz processor, 2GB Memory, 160GB hard drive, $1,200. Uh . . . no, it's not.

The fact is, where the Mac used to be light years ahead of the PC in architecture, engineering, ease of use and OS, this is no longer the case. At least, not to justify a premium of $700 or so in price. I use both, daily, and find little if any advantage to using the Mac over the PC.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Ira Lacher said:


> That's Best Buy's service; has nothing to do with the architecture of a PC.


I was simply making an example of the support structure for PC's vs Apple.


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## HDJulie (Aug 10, 2008)

Chris Blount said:


> ... Agree, Apple hardware is expensive but combine the design characteristics, software, functionality and support system behind the hardware, I don't mind paying the premium. One time I took a computer to Best Buy to get fixed under warranty. It took a month to have the hard drive replaced! I took my iPhone into the Apple store to get fixed. Within 10 minutes I walked out with a working iPhone (they replaced it on the spot). ...


A lot of people are taking their iPhones back to Apple to be exchanged. First, you aren't really going to do that with a $1500 computer. I'm sure they are going to want to look at it for awhile before just replacing it, & second, there are A LOT of people who are having problems with their iPhone & are getting them replaced. Becuase it is small & relatively inexpensive, I think Apple is replacing them simply because it's the easiest route.

I love my iPhone but it is definitely not a rousing success in technical terms. I reboot mine more than I do my PC & I'm not using it that much. I don't have a large number of apps & I don't make a lot of phone calls. Our neighbor had hers brick during the 3.0 upgrade & could not get it to restore. She took it to an Apple store where the Genius was able to unbrick it & told her that every 3 or 4 months, it is best to do a restore & start over. I was floored.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

harsh said:


> It would appear that you too are a victim of the hype. I liken this to back in the day when Borland's Turbo programming tools were the thing but in the real world, everyone was still using BASIC or something similarly "dark ages".
> 
> The Mac gives you one or two viable choices that are painfully slow. The Windows side offers several that are much more utilitarian, but also more production oriented.


You must be some kind of seasoned and experienced video, film or television producer to make this statement.

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that you'd make such a claim. As someone who's been in broadcast television since 1977, I can tell you with absolute certainty that in video production, any "Windows side offerings" have always been, and still are, laughable compared to those on the Macintosh side.

I can only assume the 2 "painfully slow viable choices" you're referring to are iMovie and Final Cut Pro/Express. Sorry, but having used Avid, Media100, Premiere and many others over the years, Final Cut Pro is hands-down the winner in speed and efficiency. To suggest otherwise makes one look the fool. :nono:


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I too doubt such a phone call really took place... UNLESS it was between two friends and was made in jest.

Meanwhile... the funny thing, to me, is those Microsoft ads actually were GOOD for Apple in my opinion.

Sure, they slam Apple for being higher priced... but at the same time, all those people are saying things like "I guess I'm not cool enough to have a Mac"... which to me seems to be simultaneously advertising that "if you aren't cool, settle for a PC".

I don't want a Mac vs PC war either. Simple facts are that each computer does some things well and some things poorly...

Also, while true to some extent on the laptop/notebook front that you can have a PC cheaper than a comparable Mac... when you go to desktop world, it really gets to be a closer race.

You can get a cheap PC or a mega-computer... With Macs, you only have a couple of models to choose from that are generally towards the higher end.

I know when I shopped for a computer earlier this year... I completely agreed that I could get more computer for my money with a PC Laptop over a Mac notebook... OR spend less for the same quality...

BUT... the prices on the iMac desktops compared very favorably with the class of PC desktop I wanted.


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## Fontano (Feb 7, 2008)

I didn't want to do a Mac vs PC thing, as we could countless pages and pages and pages on that, and never get to a point.

As others has said, it gets down to it, both platforms are good platforms.
All depends on what you need it to do.

I purchased a $415 PC laptop 4 years ago, upped the memory for $50 about 2 years ago. It was just retired for an updated laptop, that was $415. This computer is my wifes and works perfrectly fine. Cost of ownership was just that around $500.

So at the end of the day, for my wife and many of the other families around me and I know, this is the EXACT scenerio that advertisment is for. This is about the people that know what they want, and know the differences, and choose a platform for it.

The point of this thread was about the double standard in the Ads.
Thats all.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Ira Lacher said:


> Huh? A PC with 6 GB RAM, a 320-GB hard drive, a GeForce 9600 graphics card and an Intel 6600 processor is a formidable machine that is capable of high-intensive CAD, among others. And I would stack that up against the standard, low-priced MacBook any day.


Mr. Lacher, I apologize. I wasn't clear. What I meant to imply is that people compare Apples with low-end PCs, when they should be compared with workstation-class PCs such as the one you describe above. Apple does make the Mac mini but it's not promoted really. In fact sometimes you have to look far and wide to find one.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

MadManNBama said:


> My last PC was slow and buggy after only 3 years, while my Macs last for a minimum of 5. If you do the math of each year of ownership, the Macs are much more useful and productive longer. Over the long run, I save hundreds.


That MIGHT be because you don't know what your doing, and keep downloading trojans. I have these pcs:

Cyrix 233
128 megs ram
tnt 1 (Still works, but don't use it)

Athlon 1800+
512 megs ddr 2100 ram
6200

Athlon 2500+
1.5 gigs ddr 3200 ram
3650 agp

Pentium D 805
4 gigs ram
x1900 xt 512

Core 2 duo laptop
2 gigs ram
x1800 mobile

core 2 duo e6400 
4 gigs ram
8800 gtx 640

core i 7
4 gigs ram
gtx 260

Acer aspire pro netbook

All of these pcs, except for the laptop and netbook, I built myself. They've been operational for a long time (The oldest operational one is the 1800+, operational since 2000-2001). They don't get slower because I actually know what I'm doing, and don't need my hand held.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

ehh, removing my post. Choosing to stay out of this one


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

Apple is very good at writing cease and desist "letters" when they feel the need.

They don't make cease and desist "phone calls".

This story is total BS. Never happened.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

MadManNBama said:


> Fontano, lets not start trying to bash Apple on the sly.
> 
> Macs are not expensive when you factor in the total price of ownership. This is also something we should all do with our cars, but we Americans, like when buying our cars and computers are usually not smart enough shoppers to figure this out. DirecTV is also called expensive, but I think all my HD and cool extras are worth the price.
> 
> ...


My desktop has been running strong since 2001 so the value over time is subjective.

I built it with an AMD Athlon XP, 1GB ram, running Windows XP.

The only problem I've ever had was my daughter was using it and got the CoolWebSearch hijacker on it. It took 3 days to completely remove it from the registry.

Beyond that I replaced the video card once but I never had a problem with the OS or sluggishness. It still runs great. 

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

ibglowin said:


> Apple is very good at writing cease and desist "letters" when they feel the need.
> 
> They don't make cease and desist "phone calls".
> 
> This story is total BS. Never happened.


From what I've read in the myriad articles on the net (some from Mac sites), the phone call took place but what was said we may never know.

If Apple didn't make the call we would probably seen a response from them by now.

We'll see what happens next. 

Mike


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Even being a complete Mac hater and basher (except for the iPod and iPhone), I thought the 'I'm A Mac, I'm A PC' commercials were cute at first, but then they just got sickening. While I thought they were clever, they are also pretty low. IMO, when advertising, if your product is so damn good, show off its positives, highlight the bright spots, let the product sell itself, there is no reason to tear down the competition. Bring your positives to my attention, not a biased view of the competitions negatives. Now the iPhone and iPod commercials do just that. I can't say all of Apples advertising is sleazy, just 90% of it is. 

Now Microsoft's 'I'm a PC' campaign is just plain lame. It's basically want some cheap crap to go buy a PC. Is this the best they could come up with? I've owned computers in my life each one served as my main PC for 4 years, and each one cost over $2500. I wouldn't dream owning a computer that costs less. Right now I'd love to get a laptop, but the HP HDX configured to the specs I want cost a little of $3,000, which isn't bad considering I paid about $2,800 for this desktop last year I'd be happy with the 16" as opposed to the 18", but they don't offer quad core processors in the 16" HDX.

I've never looked at Apple Computers as the Bentley of computing To me Apple targets a rebellious, antiestablishment crowd who have uncontrollable anger management issues when it comes to Bill Gates. As a fan of business, doing business and capitalism, I can't help but to be a Microsoft supporter. The Microsoft story should be an inspiration to us all. I'd rather support a geeky college drop out with business sense then an anal retentive, obsessive compulsive loon.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Steve Mehs said:


> Now Microsoft's 'I'm a PC' campaign is just plain lame. It's basically want some cheap crap to go buy a PC. Is this the best they could come up with? I've owned computers in my life each one served as my main PC for 4 years, and each one cost over $2500. I wouldn't dream owning a computer that costs less. Right now I'd love to get a laptop, but the HP HDX configured to the specs I want cost a little of $3,000, which isn't bad considering I paid about $2,800 for this desktop last year I'd be happy with the 16" as opposed to the 18", but they don't offer quad core processors in the 16" HDX.


The thing is, you are far from a typical computer buyer. These days, most people buy a desktop for <$500, and a laptop for <$1000. Microsoft's ads are perfectly targeted to this huge demographic, which is why Apple is so upset.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

BattleZone said:


> The thing is, you are far from a typical computer buyer. These days, most people buy a desktop for <$500, and a laptop for <$1000. Microsoft's ads are perfectly targeted to this huge demographic,


Agreed.



BattleZone said:


> which is why Apple is so upset.


The reason Apple is supposedly upset is because Microsoft is using now outdated price points. But I agree with this article excerpt:



> Now before we look at the motive behind this alleged phone call, consider this: Apple didn't send a legal letter to Microsoft, an action that certainly would carry more significance. So even if someone from Apple did get in touch with Microsoft, the communication was essentially an informal one, and the source of that call isn't being named. It might well be that someone in Apple's legal department made the call of their own volition, without actual authorization. Or maybe it came from someone pretending to represent Apple.


Source: http://www.macnightowl.com/2009/07/is-apple-really-afraid-of-microsofts-laptop-hunter-ads/


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Steve Mehs said:


> I've never looked at Apple Computers as the Bentley of computing To me Apple targets a rebellious, antiestablishment crowd who have uncontrollable anger management issues when it comes to Bill Gates. As a fan of business, doing business and capitalism, I can't help but to be a Microsoft supporter. The Microsoft story should be an inspiration to us all. I'd rather support a geeky college drop out with business sense then an anal retentive, obsessive compulsive loon.


Given the marketing, leading edge usability, its attention to detail and the fact that each Mall in SoCal has an Apple store full of people ("Not rebellious, antiestablishment crow") waiting in line on a Saturday to talk to a Mac rep if their marketing is targeting this rebellious crowd their marketing is not working. There was not one rebellious person i saw in that store as I helped my 80 year old Aunt shop for her first Mac.

MS is obviously targeting the mass market with their ads as Mac is doing with there. Both ads sell their strong points. Apple strong point is that invests and obsesses over usability and coolness. One just has to play a iTouch, look at a 24" iMac, or look at one of those thin AirBooks to see it.. It also has a reputation to be more problem free and it sells it.

PC manufacturers an MS use the cost factor as that is their strongest point. Personally I don't like the Ads, but I can see the value in them.

Am I one of the rebellious types.. Nope.. I use a PC 8 hours a day and one at home. I also have a iMac and my wife as a iTouch. Sorry Steve, but the days that Apply targeted those rebellious types is long gone and the evidence to that is in the Apple ads and the stores themselves.

Apply should be applauded for the usability and polish then put into a product.... It is something I wish more companies would do. At my work.. we went a long time being successful on selling our core product and did not give user experience any thought... We lead the industry in what we sell but we are finding in today's age... User experience and that just feel good feeling has value... I think Apple gets that and that is what their ads address. MS goes the other route.

Personally I doubt this story is true and both companies have the right to tell their store in as entertaining as possible. Personally, the Apple ads do it in more an Apply way and the MS ones do it in an MS way.

Bottom line... I would not put any value on a phone call. I remember one time we were told that the company that just hired me was called by my current company with a legal order to stop hiring from my current company... Not sure if there was any basis to it, but we all laughed about it and even if someone at Apply legal did make the call I am sure both sides had a good laugh.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Love hearing hippies trying to justify paying twice as much for the same computing power.:grin:


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Somehow I knew he was in socal before I even looked..
I don't even know where a mac store is.. think Bestbuy has a couple in the corner here..


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Ron Barry said:


> Given the marketing, leading edge usability, its attention to detail and the fact that each Mall in SoCal has an Apple store full of people ("Not rebellious, antiestablishment crow") waiting in line on a Saturday to talk to a Mac rep if their marketing is targeting this rebellious crowd their marketing is not working. There was not one rebellious person i saw in that store as I helped my 80 year old Aunt shop for her first Mac.
> 
> MS is obviously targeting the mass market with their ads as Mac is doing with there. Both ads sell their strong points. Apple strong point is that invests and obsesses over usability and coolness. One just has to play a iTouch, look at a 24" iMac, or look at one of those thin AirBooks to see it.. It also has a reputation to be more problem free and it sells it.
> 
> ...


He's refering to people who hate MS simply because they have money, and it's true.

I've been in arguments with MANY of these MS hating drones. They hate IE and want it removed from Windows, and then ***** and moan about how corporations are greedy money grubbers, and yet they can't figure out that their own stupidity will make them pay more, since you PAID FOR BROWSERS before IE got integrated into Windows.

Maybe they were just born yesterday.

Go to any Apple forum. You even SPEAK about MS and you get assaulted unless it's MS bashing.

Apple targets pretty boys who want pretty toys. The people Apple targets are ignorant, don't know much about PCs, and buy into Apples hype. The people who buy don't understand that you can get the same computer power for less (And sorry but my custom pcs with an Antec 900 look prettier then a iMac Pro), and are the buying equivelant to Paris Hilton.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

And to the people who actually believe that Apple sells their products at decent prices:

Lets be honest here. Apple has only been in the black since around 2002-2003. They serve a fraction of the audience that companies like Microsoft, Dell, etc, serve wordwide, yet they have 25 billion dollars in the bank.

How the hell can you serve so much less customers and have so much more money, FOR SELLING THE SAME DAMN THING?

Maybe, just maybe, Apple is taking their pretty little ignorant fanboys to the cleaners?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Boy... I don't know where you come up with this stuff.. Apple targeting pretty boys who want their pretty toys. Ignorant people? Not sure where you base your opinion on but you must see different lines of people waiting for iPhones and different people than I see purchasing iMacs. What you describe is nothing what I have personally experienced in my 25+ years around computers.

Just an example... There are a lot of developers that use Macs... Just go to any conference ("JavaOne for example") and you will see the place filled with Mac books. These people are far from ignorant and one of the key communities that Apple targets. What other company do you know has been able to create an Application echo system to the size and variety of the iPhone in the time frame Apple did.

Sorry.. But though I am not a huge PC or Mac Fan I use them on a daily basis to get my job done. I use a PC 100% of the time at work and about 50% at home.. I have been around PCs for 25+ years. I am far from ignorant and I know what is good and what is bad when it comes to computers.

Perhaps your PC is cooler than a mac.. That is not the point I was making. The point I was making was in regards to what you find when you walk into a Best Buy vs. a Mac Store. That is my reference point and from that point to me it is clear why their campaigns are targeted the way they are.

_Moderator Note:_Putting my moderator hat on. Lets avoid the name calling ok.. Like the OP said. There is room for both systems in this world and I agree. It is personal choice just like Dish vs. DirecTV is.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2009/04/22results.html
Apple Reports Second Quarter Results
Best March Quarter Revenue and Earnings in Apple History


> CUPERTINO, California-April 22, 2009-Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2009 second quarter ended March 28, 2009. The Company posted revenue of $8.16 billion and a net quarterly profit of $1.21 billion, or $1.33 per diluted share. These results compare to revenue of $7.51 billion and net quarterly profit of $1.05 billion, or $1.16 per diluted share, in the year-ago quarter. Gross margin was 36.4 percent, up from 32.9 percent in the year-ago quarter. International sales accounted for 46 percent of the quarter's revenue....
> 
> "We are extremely pleased to report the best non-holiday quarter revenue and earnings in our history," said Peter Oppenheimer, Apple's CFO. "Apple's financial condition remains very robust, with almost $29 billion in cash and marketable securities on our balance sheet. Looking ahead to the third fiscal quarter of 2009, we expect revenue in the range of about $7.7 billion to $7.9 billion and we expect diluted earnings per share in the range of about $.95 to $1.00."


Not bad at all for a company during the worse recession since the Great Depression.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Ron Barry said:


> Boy... I don't know where you come up with this stuff.. Apple targeting pretty boys who want their pretty toys. Ignorant people? Not sure where you base your opinion on but you must see different lines of people waiting for iPhones and different people than I see purchasing iMacs. What you describe is nothing what I have personally experienced in my 25+ years around computers.
> 
> Just an example... There are a lot of developers that use Macs... Just go to any conference ("JavaOne for example") and you will see the place filled with Mac books. These people are far from ignorant and one of the key communities that Apple targets. What other company do you know has been able to create an Application echo system to the size and variety of the iPhone in the time frame Apple did.
> 
> ...


You are talking the same computer tech, intel processors, nvidia gpus, same as most windows machines, with a different os, all put into a white pretty shell and sold at a super high premium, and this is opinion?

This opinion is the same process of opinions that goes into buying a ferrari versus buying a regular car. Even if your talking speed, a good sports car would go faster then a ferrari, people simply buy them to look good and pick up chicks!

You are talking computer parts here. At the end of the day they do the same tasks, only with Apple you pay a large premium for it.

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/...d=news_view&newsId=20090715006338&newsLang=en



> Table 1
> 
> Preliminary Worldwide PC Vendor Unit Shipment Estimates for 2Q09 (Thousands of Units)
> 
> ...





> Table 2
> 
> Preliminary United States PC Vendor Unit Shipment Estimates for 2Q09 (Thousands of Units)
> 
> ...


How does anyone here explain this? Apple is 4th in the US, Has a FRACTION of the profits in the world, yet makes the most out of these corporations for selling the same product?

You want to say opinion is now getting ripped off? Again, it's all pcs, all do the same thing. How is a white shell worth a few grand?


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

No matter what Mac ads say, any type of OS is vulnerable. Even Linux has had trojans, and that is more secure then OSX or Windows.

No matter what Mac ads say, each machine has comparable 3rd party software to get things done, and Windows has an advantage due to tons more 3rd party software.

At the end of the day you do the same tasks. At the end of the day you complete the same work. Only at the end of the day, a Mac user paid more then a PC user for the same work done.

The ONLY thing that can up productivity are stuff like more powerful computers, faster internet, etc, and that goes back to paying more for it in an Apple shell.

The means doesn't justify the end.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

And lemme say this: This isn't just beef against Apple.

One of my favorite companies is Logitech, and after making two amazing g15 keyboards, they go and make this:

http://gizmodo.com/5126011/logitech-g19-hands-on-i-watched-youtube-on-a-gaming-keyboard










A $200 keyboard with an lcd monitor on it.

Why the hell would somebody want this? Watching youtube on a keyboard, on a desktop computer? Seriously?

The g15s were great, and I can't fault the lcds, because they show vital information. I can instantly check network usage, cpu usage, check rss feeds, etc.

But why the hell would I want to buy a $200 keyboard to watch youtube feeds on a 2.5 inch screen?

I may as well get a g15 and a 15 monitor as dual! Or even just build a 1 ghz machine for less then $200 and watch youtube vids anytime I feel like it!

Just because your spending money doesn't mean it's a good deal.


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## PatentBoy (Feb 14, 2007)

The PC manufacturers must be happy - free adverts. Sure MS has a stake in PC sales, but it's ironic that they promote I'm a PC ads but do not make PCs. This approach was used in the Gates/Seinfeld ads as well.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

You can't really say Apple makes their pcs either. They put a shell over an intel cpu.

Intel is the real heroes here. Largest semiconductor maker in the world, they have made hundreds of innovations. They are the ones who should be applauded... well, as long as you ignore their history of buying sales for their horrible pentium 4 line when Athlon was better...


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Zellio said:


> No matter what Mac ads say, any type of OS is vulnerable. Even Linux has had trojans, and that is more secure then OSX or Windows.
> 
> No matter what Mac ads say, each machine has comparable 3rd party software to get things done, and Windows has an advantage due to tons more 3rd party software.
> 
> ...


Then why are you spending so much time defending PCs? I you are happy with your PC, stick with it. No need to try and tell others how to spend their money. If people prefer Macs, that is their business. I think both (PC's and Mac) have their pluses and minuses. Both have a market. It's what makes this country great. You have obviously voted with your wallet which is a good thing.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree, there is plenty of room for all types. I have one Mac, two dual-boot Windows/Linux PCs, and a Sheevaplug dev kit running Linux as a server. They all get used.

Apple's forté is the operating system but the hardware is pretty nice, although very pricey.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

If we wanted to nitpick everything to death... Many of even the "cheap" PCs are really overpriced for the components that go into them... but companies do want to make a profit.

If you made something, would you sell it at exact cost? Or would you try to make as much profit as you could?

Apple could surely gain a bigger chunk of the marketplace with lower prices... but since they appear to be a profitable company once again, it's hard to argue they are doing much "wrong" in the traditional successful business sense.

The market is a bit skewed because Apple is the only manufacturer of their machines, while there are lots of PC manufacturers... As such, you only have a few models of Macs and most of them are really not entry-level machines like you can find in the PC world.

But saying Apple is always overpriced is no more correct than any other generalization that might be said about PCs.

Usually that $500 PC doesn't compare in function to the $1000 Mac... so comparing price alone doesn't tell the whole truth.

It is still generally true, though, that if you actually take comparable PC and Mac hardware, the PC is usually cheaper... I can't argue that point, because I did the price comparisons... but I still bought an iMac recently because it offered me some things that no PC could offer (in part, a platform to develop applications for the iPhone).

ALL commercials for ALL products are a bit dishonest if you really look at them. The goal is to sell their product while turning you away from a competitor. So I tend to look for entertainment value in commercials, not selling points... I do that research myself and try to actually look at the products and not what the companies tell me they want me to look at.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Chris Blount said:


> Then why are you spending so much time defending PCs? I you are happy with your PC, stick with it. No need to try and tell others how to spend their money. If people prefer Macs, that is their business. I think both (PC's and Mac) have their pluses and minuses. Both have a market. It's what makes this country great. You have obviously voted with your wallet which is a good thing.


Because computers are supposed to make things easier. Computers are supposed to be practical. These are the facts.

This is like buying pretty fre extinguishers for a couple hundred dollars.

And how exactly are you guys turning this into an 'opinion based' topic? When opinions are made due to lying mac ads, I'd call that more ignorance than having a well thought out opinion.

And whats most amusing about the whole idea of 'opinions', is that opinions by consumers in buying things we don't need is largely why we are in the recession/depression. You guys remember, the sub-prime mortages?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Zellio said:


> Because computers are supposed to make things easier. Computers are supposed to be practical. These are the facts.
> 
> This is like buying pretty fre extinguishers for a couple hundred dollars.
> 
> ...


Where is it that says computers are suppose to be practical? What makes a computer practical? Computers are a mixture of hardware and software to meet a need. Practicality does not come into the picture as a fact though some may place that on a requirement list as they shop. Some may also place that requirement a lot lower or even put it into a don't care bucket. Case in point, they want a computer that fits into a specific location in the house and look a certain way.. Perhaps a pink computer.. Well in that case... if that was a top requirement for a person buying the computer practicality would not even come into play. Computer must be pink.. End of story and if there was only one to choose from that would be the one chosen.

It my be top on your list, but it is not a requirement of all people shopping and that does not make people ignorant. If practicality was a fact of requirement of computers people would all be shopping for the biggest bang for their buck and that is not the case. Convenience, Easy of Use, Support, Durability, etc are all things people put on lists of what they want in their computers and these are not facts but preferences peopled choose. One person my have practicality high on the list and go with the computer with the cheapest components to get the big bang for the buck today but given up reliability in the long run.

Ads are Marketing tools designed to show the product they are advertising in the best light. I mean PC ads don't put a declaimer running across the bottom saying you have a significant higher chance of obtaining a virus or that your wonderful purchase will included gigabytes of crippled software. They focus on a difference just as the Mac ads do. You might disagree with the opinion of the ad but from my perspective the companies are just focus and presenting a positive picture of their product.

Another example of this is the HD ads that cable, Dish and DirecTV put out. They all claim to be leader, we constantly argue about it in numerous threads each side calling the other liars. Bottom line it is a perception thing and we as consumers need to be able to take the Ad and verify what the ad is really saying.

You do a lot of name calling. Indicating people are ignorant and don't have a well thought out opinion because it differs from yours. Well just has you have the right to say yours with what you feel are facts, other people have the right to theirs and because it differs between yours or another person puts other features like what they like cosmetically, they prefer a BSD based OS, they want a computer with an OS that is a single source etc does not make them ignorant or lacking a well thought out opinion. They just value different things.

In reality, most people that buy computers are not like us around here that have built their own, that write software for a living, that understand the difference between a bad or good motherboard. Most people that buys computers buy them like any other appliance. That does not make them ignorant.. Computers are just an appliance to them in their eyes as is a DVR. So they will go out and do a little bit of research and purchase what they fell will meet their needs and requirements. Those requirements vary widely from person to person.

Like I said earlier.. Lets try to avoid the personal attacks on people for their choices and lets try and stay on topic which is Apple asking MS to stop running Ads as the OP has requested.

Has their been a confirmation that this has happened yet? Has apple denied or said they did this?


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Stewart Vernon said:


> If we wanted to nitpick everything to death... Many of even the "cheap" PCs are really overpriced for the components that go into them... but companies do want to make a profit.
> 
> If you made something, would you sell it at exact cost? Or would you try to make as much profit as you could?
> 
> Apple could surely gain a bigger chunk of the marketplace with lower prices... but since they appear to be a profitable company once again, it's hard to argue they are doing much "wrong" in the traditional successful business sense.


Exactly! Wouldn't have it any other way especially in our free market society.



Zellio said:


> Because computers are supposed to make things easier. Computers are supposed to be practical. These are the facts.
> 
> This is like buying pretty fre extinguishers for a couple hundred dollars.
> 
> ...


Again, you have voted with your wallet. You didn't buy the free fire extinguisher for $200. Good show. Now just enjoy your PC don't worry about Apple. If they are as money hungry and bad as you say they are, users will catch on and Apple will eventually fail.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Practicality should play a part in most consumer electronics devices. If you have to run under emulation to get the software you need (this _absolutely_ includes virtualization under Windows 7), you're being impractical.

If you have to use all sorts of adapters and fourth party drivers to make something work you are being impractical.

If you have to buy software that costs upwards of $100 to do something relatively basic because nothing cheaper exists, you're being impractical.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

I love Macs for what I can actually use on a Mac. Video and graphics work are 2 good examples. But for entertainment, *NOT ONE game I play* works well on the Mac platform.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Zellio said:


> Because computers are supposed to make things easier. Computers are supposed to be practical. These are the facts.
> 
> This is like buying pretty fre extinguishers for a couple hundred dollars.
> 
> ...


What????


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Looks like Microsoft gave in anyway...

http://theappleblog.com/2009/07/24/microsoft-backs-down-after-apple-legal-threats-changes-ad/


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## ncxcstud (Apr 22, 2007)

Steve Mehs said:


> Now Microsoft's 'I'm a PC' campaign is just plain lame. It's basically want some cheap crap to go buy a PC. * Is this the best they could come up with? I've owned computers in my life each one served as my main PC for 4 years, and each one cost over $2500. I wouldn't dream owning a computer that costs less.* Right now I'd love to get a laptop, but the HP HDX configured to the specs I want cost a little of $3,000, which isn't bad considering I paid about $2,800 for this desktop last year I'd be happy with the 16" as opposed to the 18", but they don't offer quad core processors in the 16" HDX.


Granted, I build my own computers, but I would NEVER pay over $1000 for a computer...there is no point...if you know what you want...the next time you need a new computer, see how much it would cost to build one compared to buying one from Dell...

Heck, I've had the same 'looking' computer (case) for over 6 years now...I just change the parts out every now and then...last upgrade cost me around $300ish

For the normal user, what Mac offers is just too expensive and it is what Microsoft is targeting...


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I would never touch anything with the word Dell on it. And I would never build a computer, other than for fun, what's the point. It wouldn't have cost me that much less to build an equivalent computer as the one I have now from HP. And with HP if anything dies I get 1 year support. I always go with the fastest Intel processor available (nothing less is acceptable IMO) at the time which alone runs $600 if not more, how much was a Blu Ray burner/HD DVD combo drive last year, what would 8GB of RAM run me, I forgot how much the monitor ran me, $300 bucks maybe but I wouldn't get anything else, this HP widescreen rocks, even PC World who gets on their knees for Dell rated the 24" version of my monitor #1 for a month or two. I'll have this computer for at least another 3 or 4 years. I'd rather spend $3K on something I'll get some use out of and that's of quality then a sub $1K box with on board graphics and audio, a processor that was fast 2 years ago and minimal RAM. 

I'm looking at the paperwork right now, not including the monitor or tax the computer itself was $2,379. Figure the Intel Q9550 Quad Core Processor, 8GB of RAM and a 750GB hard drive would have cost abought half that if I built it myself. Then add in a ATX motherboard, a Creative audio card, NVidia video card, Blu Ray Disc Bruner/HD DVD ROM drive, secondary 16x DVD ROM drive, a case, wireless keyboard and mouse and a copy of Vista Ultimate 64 bit plus my time to assemble the damn thing. Simply wouldn't be worth it. Whatever miniscule savings there would be I'd rather pay to have it be put together and not waste my time.

I don't really see myself buying another desktop anyway.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Greg Alsobrook said:


> Looks like Microsoft gave in anyway...
> 
> http://theappleblog.com/2009/07/24/microsoft-backs-down-after-apple-legal-threats-changes-ad/


So when is Apple gonna change their Mac Ads? The ones saying they don't get viruses?


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## gphvid (Jun 19, 2007)

Chris Blount said:


> Personally I don't think the phone call took place and if it did, there is probably some stretched facts. Usually a cease and desist is sent in the form of a letter, not a phone call. That is what lawyers do. Paperwork on everything.
> 
> Agree, Apple hardware is expensive but combine the design characteristics, software, functionality and support system behind the hardware, I don't mind paying the premium. One time I took a computer to Best Buy to get fixed under warranty. It took a month to have the hard drive replaced! I took my iPhone into the Apple store to get fixed. Within 10 minutes I walked out with a working iPhone (they replaced it on the spot).
> 
> As far as the commercials, yeah, Apple should suck it up but Microsoft has to be careful. Apple has lowered their prices on many of their laptops recently so at the very least Microsoft needs to update their commercials.


Best Buy is a retailer and not owned by Microsoft whereas the Apple Store is owned by Apple, so they can get a quicker response than Best Buy along with authorization to replace your phone.

Laptop prices have come down, but the PC laptops are still cheaper than Apple's. This after I've been surveying the market to replace my daughter's laptop...


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## gphvid (Jun 19, 2007)

Zellio said:


> So when is Apple gonna change their Mac Ads? The ones saying they don't get viruses?


I still have mac-addicts who keep insisting that macs just cannot get viruses. Just doesn't happen. And they *refuse* to hear or acknowledge the contrary. But I've seen a G5 with a virus. Not pretty, happens.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

gphvid said:


> I still have mac-addicts who keep insisting that macs just cannot get viruses. Just doesn't happen. And they *refuse* to hear or acknowledge the contrary. But I've seen a G5 with a virus. Not pretty, happens.


In a world run by ignorance, apparantly lies are truths since delusional people believe them, while people bash Microsoft for having IE on Windows, and saying they are monopolizing anything, ignoring the facts that you paid for browsers before IE got added to Win 98...


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## ncxcstud (Apr 22, 2007)

Steve Mehs said:


> I would never touch anything with the word Dell on it. And I would never build a computer, other than for fun, what's the point. It wouldn't have cost me that much less to build an equivalent computer as the one I have now from HP. And with HP if anything dies I get 1 year support. I always go with the fastest Intel processor available (nothing less is acceptable IMO) at the time which alone runs $600 if not more, how much was a Blu Ray burner/HD DVD combo drive last year, what would 8GB of RAM run me, I forgot how much the monitor ran me, $300 bucks maybe but I wouldn't get anything else, this HP widescreen rocks, even PC World who gets on their knees for Dell rated the 24" version of my monitor #1 for a month or two. I'll have this computer for at least another 3 or 4 years. I'd rather spend $3K on something I'll get some use out of and that's of quality then a sub $1K box with on board graphics and audio, a processor that was fast 2 years ago and minimal RAM.
> 
> I'm looking at the paperwork right now, not including the monitor or tax the computer itself was $2,379. Figure the Intel Q9550 Quad Core Processor, 8GB of RAM and a 750GB hard drive would have cost abought half that if I built it myself. Then add in a ATX motherboard, a Creative audio card, NVidia video card, Blu Ray Disc Bruner/HD DVD ROM drive, secondary 16x DVD ROM drive, a case, wireless keyboard and mouse and a copy of Vista Ultimate 64 bit plus my time to assemble the damn thing. Simply wouldn't be worth it. Whatever miniscule savings there would be I'd rather pay to have it be put together and not waste my time.
> 
> I don't really see myself buying another desktop anyway.


Sorry about the dell quote...I don't know what HP or Dell call each model of their desktops...I just said Dell 

yes, initial costs (for anything) might not save you much money, but where you'll save money is in upgrade costs.. if after 4 years your PC is just not quick enough for you...upgrade the motherboard, cpu, or RAM only...no need to get everything else...you don't need a new mouse, monitor, or keyboard every time...so, instead of paying 3000+ every 4 years...you'll pay what? 500-800 every 4 years? maybe more...more than likely less? That seems cheaper to me...

But, it is what you're most comfortable with anyways. I'm adequate enough with computers to be able to build my own...I'm no expert, but I don't think it's all that hard and the longest it has ever taken me to put the parts together is about 2 hours...

For the computer that you just outlined above...it would roughly cost 1081.90 if you built it...granted, I think that is a computer you have now..and not one you're looking to build at the moment...but still...that's pretty cheap...

I know people pay a premium to not do it themselves (Heck, I pay 40+ dollars to have my oil changed and I know I could do it for like 10...but I don't feel comfortable doing it, so i know how it goes...)

Oh well .


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I have no problem messing around with computers, computers are my life, I have a degree in IT. Last year when I priced my configuration using New Egg and Tiger it was nowhere near that price. The processor and a copy of Vista Ultimate cost almost that much alone

If I were to get a brand new desktop today it would be an HP Pavilion 9180T.

Comparing prebuilt to building yourself, From Tiger:

Windows Vista Ultimate - $190
Intel Core i7 975 Processor - $1000
12 GB DDR3 1066 MHz RAM - $360
1TB 7200 RPM Harddrive - $90
1GB NVIDIA GeForce GTS 250 Graphics Card - $140
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium - $100
Blu Ray Burner - $210
Secondary DVD-ROM Drive - $45

Total $2,135

HP wants $2,620 for this same set up, $485 price difference, but what I didn't price was the case (I know large towers are about $150-$200), motherboard, PSU and card reader and the difference probably shrinks to about $200. For the extra $200 or less I'd rather have someone else assemble it and I see now it's a 2 year warranty.

As for upgrading the same machine over the years, not for me. If I wanted to upgrade this computer to something like the mock system I configured above, I'd still need to buy all the same components, just not the case. Motherboard, RAM and processor would be over $1500 alone. Plus I'd still only have one physical computer. I've only own four computers in my life, but three of them are fully functional to this day. My 10 year old Compaq runs XP Pro SP3 with no problem, and my 6 year old Compaq runs Vista Ultimate beautifully. The 6 year old machine is the one my mom uses and the 10 year old one I use for experiments. 

Other then replacing a DVD ROM drive that I jammed up, and adding RAM to my 10 year old Compaq, I've done nothing to upgrade any machine. I order my systems with the best components offered at the time to future proof myself, thus not neeeding to upgrade anything until it's time for a new machine. If I would have built or ordered some sub $1000 machine 6 years ago, I don't think I'd be running Vista on it right now. I paid $2,507 for that computer (tax and monitor included), 6 years later it is still an awesome machine. I've got my money out of it. And other then buying Vista for it, I haven't put so much as a penny into that machine since I bought it.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Well before the economy started to tank, the PC market (Apple notwithstanding) was seeing a steady decline in price. Companies like IBM chose to sell off their PC division rather than try to compete for the pennies of profit in that arena.

In the neighborhood of around 10 years ago you could either build your own computer far cheaper than buying a corporate-logoed one OR there were configurations you simply could not get off-the-shelf, that forced you to build yourself to get the top-of-line components.

I used to exclusively build my own PCs for a combination of those reasons... I usually wanted more memory and higher-end graphics than the companies would sell in pre-built... and I could either save money OR spend the same money to get a better system.

But my last couple of computers have been pre-built ones. That savings has shrank, as Steve notes, to a smaller margin and you get not only a warranty but some measure of "guaranteed" compatibility of components that you don't always have with built-yourself systems.

I once bought a motherboard and video card that simply did not work together. Each worked with other components, but not with each other... so I had to swap out the motherboard for one that liked my video card better.

So, unless things change again and the wind blows the other way again... I kinda have to side with Steve on the pre-built systems being a not-so-bad way to go these days. There are always exceptions of course, but in modern times I've found systems that match what I need moreso than in the past.

Of course you can still save some and config a little yourself by buying a system with minimum RAM and buying aftermarket RAM to upgrade yourself. That's what I did with my iMac. I also may upgrade the internal hard drive once my factory warranty expires.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Steve Mehs said:


> I have no problem messing around with computers, computers are my life, I have a degree in IT. Last year when I priced my configuration using New Egg and Tiger it was nowhere near that price. The processor and a copy of Vista Ultimate cost almost that much alone
> 
> If I were to get a brand new desktop today it would be an HP Pavilion 9180T.
> 
> ...


The problem is you are going by normal prices, ignoring sales, which is one HUGE advantage custom builders have.

You can get ALOT better deal on ram and gpu by simply shopping around. Creative card? Seriously? There are alot better cards today. 1 tb for $90? There was a recent sell on 1.5 tb drives, $110.

Blu Ray burner?? $210?

WHY do you need a blu ray burner first of all? DVD burners are better AT THE MOMENT because dvd+rs are cheap and bluray disks are... not.

And a secondary dvd rom?

You can simplify all of it by getting this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136162

That is a $129:

8X BD-ROM 16X DVD-ROM 40X CD-ROM SATA Internal Combo LG Blu-ray Reader & 16X LightScribe DVD±R DVD Burner

No need for a secondary drive.

Then lets talk cases... Sure you can let someone put together a water cooled case, or you can cool things yourself!

A large amount of cooling has to do with wire placement. A good modular psu combined with good wire placement and something like an antec 900/1200 would take you alot farther, and make sure games and such play better.

I could easily shave nearly $1000 off that estimate you gave.

And you could argue that companies that build your pcs would have sales; yes, but they never approach what you can save by being a smart shopper.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

And one thing Steve Mehs, not trying to be mean but...

If your IT you don't sound like it. Nobody I know, esp. the guys I know at [H], would call themselves 'IT' and then say they'd rather have someone build their own pc while quoting non sale prices of goods.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Zellio said:


> The problem is you are going by normal prices, ignoring sales, which is one HUGE advantage custom builders have. You can get ALOT better deal on ram and gpu by simply shopping around.


I didn't see any of those items on sale at Tiger, New Egg, Amazon or Best Buy. I won't do business with anyone else, I trust those retailers. I'm not trusting some rinky dink outfit with my credit card info. If there are some so called sales at other places, they can keep it, I only support the big guys.

Creative card? Seriously? There are alot better cards today.[/quote]

I only use Creative audio cards. They have served my needs just fine over the years.



> 1 tb for $90? There was a recent sell on 1.5 tb drives, $110.


I've got a 750GB hard drive now, I'm using less the 37GB. I don't need a 1TB drive, let alone a 1.5TB drive.



> Blu Ray burner?? $210?
> 
> WHY do you need a blu ray burner first of all? DVD burners are better AT THE MOMENT because dvd+rs are cheap and bluray disks are... not.


Why not? Blu Ray is the future. I don't care about THE MOMENT.



> And a secondary dvd rom?
> 
> You can simplify all of it by getting this:
> 
> ...


Ummm here a thought, CD to CD copying or DVD to DVD copying. Put the blank in the burner, and orginal in the other drive and copy. More seamless then swapping out discs



> Then lets talk cases... Sure you can let someone put together a water cooled case, or you can cool things yourself!


I don't game. I have no need for liquid cooling or any of that other crap



> And one thing Steve Mehs, not trying to be mean but...
> 
> If your IT you don't sound like it. Nobody I know, esp. the guys I know at [H], would call themselves 'IT' and then say they'd rather have someone build their own pc while quoting non sale prices of goods.


I said I have a degree in IT, and that's it. Never had a job in it and I probably don't want one. I don't know to many guys in IT who have pink Acer laptops, but I digress.

I don't know what the big deal is, it's my money I can spen it how I want, if I want to pay $3,000 of a computer that will last me years then that's my business. Again, I think building you own computer can be a fun hobby, but for me would be stupid, very pointless and a huge waste of time.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Steve Mehs said:


> I didn't see any of those items on sale at Tiger, New Egg, Amazon or Best Buy. I won't do business with anyone else, I trust those retailers. I'm not trusting some rinky dink outfit with my credit card info. If there are some so called sales at other places, they can keep it, I only support the big guys.


I don't recall telling you to. I think the point is that the big online retailers have deals from time to time, which contradicts blanket price lists.



> I only use Creative audio cards. They have served my needs just fine over the years.


Alright, but today their are cheaper, better card.



> I've got a 750GB hard drive now, I'm using less the 37GB. I don't need a 1TB drive, let alone a 1.5TB drive.


Then why did you make that comparison?



> Why not? Blu Ray is the future. I don't care about THE MOMENT.


Prices on drives always go down. You'd be better off sticking to dvds since they are cheap ANYWAY and getting a bluray burner when they go down in price.

And just as a FYI, most bluray devices have dropped 500% or more this year alone.



> Ummm here a thought, CD to CD copying or DVD to DVD copying. Put the blank in the burner, and orginal in the other drive and copy. More seamless then swapping out discs


If your gonna do this, you may as well save it all to a large hdd.



> I don't game. I have no need for liquid cooling or any of that other crap


Alright.



> I said I have a degree in IT, and that's it. Never had a job in it and I probably don't want one. I don't know to many guys in IT who have pink Acer laptops, but I digress.


Uh huh? What do pink laptops have to do with this subject? And you'd be surprised, true IT care more about how the device works then what color it is.



> I don't know what the big deal is, it's my money I can spen it how I want, if I want to pay $3,000 of a computer that will last me years then that's my business. Again, I think building you own computer can be a fun hobby, but for me would be stupid, very pointless and a huge waste of time.


Well it's funny, since you said this:



> Total $2,135
> 
> HP wants $2,620 for this same set up, $485 price difference, but what I didn't price was the case (I know large towers are about $150-$200), motherboard, PSU and card reader and the difference probably shrinks to about $200. For the extra $200 or less I'd rather have someone else assemble it and I see now it's a 2 year warranty.


You tried to make this into an argument of money, now your trying to act like it's your opinion. If that was the case then you shouldn't have argued about money. You argued that you could get a buildable pc for $200 less then a pre-built, and when I argue that you can get components for way cheaper, you argue that it's your opinion to buy.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

And btw, it isn't just a fun hobby to build pcs, and this is factual, not an opinion. Again, as I said above, cooling is a major factor, and not just in gaming machines. Lack of sufficient cooling can kill any machine, from older pentium 2s to laptops.

Pre-built machines also skimp on some parts. Power supplies are never that good, unless you get a gaming machine. All a prebuilt company gives you is a PSU that gives enough output for the current device. While you may say that's fine, a psu also has to have quality standards, which is sometimes not in pre-built machines (Look up Dell psus for issues Dell customers have had for years). I would much rather build my own pc and make sure I have a good psu so my pc doesn't fry.

Not only that, but pre-built bios's are usually locked out from most things. You can't overclock, change pretty much any settings at all, etc. While again it may not be much to you, on aq computer you should have the widest abilities you can.

And lastly, the OS. Pre-built pcs not only come with the OS but tons of crapware, with 90% being trials. Sure the average joe may enjoy his pc filled with crap, but the issue is all the stuff slows down your pc. And I'm not talking Norton antivirus, anything installed. If you think I'm lying, look up how adding stuff to a windows registry slows down your pc.

With all of this said, this isn't just some hobby, this isnt a game. This is making the most out of the money you spent. You may enjoy sending your cash so that some guy in china can build a pc, but I'd rather make sure my pc works.

What would be a big waste of time is having a computer built for you and have it fail.

And btw, it's funny you mention warranties. I have warranties on all of my parts, some far longer then pre-built (EVGA/BFG lifetime warranty). If you guys need warranty help you have to send in your entire pc; me, I have to send in the part.

Now THAT is a waste of time for you!


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## ncxcstud (Apr 22, 2007)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Well before the economy started to tank, the PC market (Apple notwithstanding) was seeing a steady decline in price. Companies like IBM chose to sell off their PC division rather than try to compete for the pennies of profit in that arena.
> 
> In the neighborhood of around 10 years ago you could either build your own computer far cheaper than buying a corporate-logoed one OR there were configurations you simply could not get off-the-shelf, that forced you to build yourself to get the top-of-line components.
> 
> ...


I can agree with this on some levels. Depending on what type of computer user you are, it is better to probably buy a pre-built machine. Some of the lower end models have much better equipment in them then comparable models from years past...It is the easier of the two options available...

Of course, my personal opinion is that if you're going to try to build the best PC available to you...build it yourself...then you can just upgrade the pieces you want to improve later on...for far cheaper than buying an entirely new computer...

The example I always gave when I used to really push PC building was that when you need new tires on your car, you buy new tires...you don't buy an entirely new car.

I've saved friends countless dollars who used to buy new computers because their floppy drive failed or their CD/DVD drive didn't work anymore...once they got a taste of how easy it was (and how cheap it was compared to what the big box stores or the manufacturers would charge)...they were hooked...

By all means, a person can spend their money any way they'd like, but I still believe (obviously my opinion) there are countless savings to building your own PC than paying for a prebuilt PC...

The major thing that I've never liked about prebuilt PCs (since I already have a computer) is having to get (and essentially pay for) a new monitor, keyboard, and mouse...and video card, sound card (i've been using the same card for 4 years now...is it an X-fi? no...but it's pretty darn good and I've had no reason to upgrade it since...), hard drive, case, etc... I just usually need more RAM, new CPU, and maybe a new motherboard (if the CPU i want is not supported on my current board) I can upgrade those, which are significantly better than my current build and feel like I have a brand new computer...


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

For people still new in computers, building one can be fun AND educational... so I can still recommend doing it on that basis.

When I used to build my own I used to build middle-of-the-road computers. Why? If you build your own top-of-the-line you didn't really save as much. The savings was in building a pretty good one... then upgrading RAM, CPU, video, etc. in a year when prices on those things were down.

BUT... I've been burned a few times on those scenarios... like when CPUs dropped from 5V to 3.3V and though my motherboard supported faster CPU speeds, it could not supply the lower voltage... so I had to replace a motherboard.

Then all the times they kept switching out the expansion types. My first home-brew had EISA slots! Then those went away.. so all those cards (like my uber-cool caching SCSI controller) were useless in my next computer 

Then the move to PCI and AGP slots... then AGP went away... so multiple times in my home-brew experience, my "upgradable" computers proved to be not-so-upgradable after all because the interface technology was changing so fast.

So... there's just no consistent way to slice it where it's always better to buy pre-built OR always better to build yourself. A lot depends on the system you want, the money you have to spend, the enjoyment you get from building yourself, and the educational value if you want to learn more about your computer's innards.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Good grief. I looked at this thread when the original post was made. It sure went places.

I had a certificate of some kind in 1970, as a programmer. My wife and I ran a computer systems and services firm beginning in 1980. I've built PC's including one I'm typing this on. And I've bought PC's. Just depends on the circumstances, the price and what I want. Never owned an Apple, but some in the family use them exclusively, one even has built a successful computer graphics business using Macs.

So I think I have a reasonable perspective on the subject.

I guess because I used to hit the side of my Tandy Model II's to get the floppy drive to behave, I think of computers as tools, like a shovel. I don't want to shovel snow with a round point shovel. I don't want to dig holes with a snow shovel. Both have their uses.

The fact is you can buy a computer from Apple that boots in both their operating system and Windows. Don't know how well that works, but I can see how that might be useful.

But I can't think of one reason to argue with someone over what computer to use by brand name.


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