# HD Channels listed twice in guide, is there a difference?



## RollTide1017 (Oct 12, 2008)

I just had E* installed today. I signed up for the Turbo HD Gold w/ Platinum HD and Multi Sports package added. I've noticed that most of the HD channels are listed twice in the guide; once in a lower channel number range and again in the 9000 range (ie. Big Ten HD is ch. 439 & 9500). I did notice that some of the 9000 channels didn't have complete guide information available. 

Is there a difference between the two versions of the channel (like is one MPEG2 and the other MPEG4)? I just don't understand why I need 2 versions of the same channel. Guess it makes you feel like you get more channels then you actually do. I was only expecting to get just over 50 channels with the Turbo HD package but, add in the duplicates and it looks like over 100 channels. Not too mention that I also have access to the SD versions of most of the HD channels as well, at least the ones that have an SD version (which worked out well for the other SDTVs in the house).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

When dish started adding HD channels they put them up out of the way in the 9400's. Eventually they introduced "mapped down" channels for HD (which is what most of the three digit HD channels are ... mapdowns of the higher numbers).

The intent of the mapdowns/ lower channel numbers is to have the HD channels available side by side with the SD channels and make them easier to find. More existing customers would remember the channel number for 140 ESPN than 94whatever for ESPN HD. As DISH added channels with mapdowns the new channels instantly appeared in the guide right next to the existing HD channels and were tuned if someone simply keyed in the SD channel number (unless one has the mapdowns turned off).

The 9400s are a decent way of grouping all of the channels together ... an "all HD" lineup (although there is now HD grouped in other places in the numbering system).


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

i could have sworn I posted an answer in this thread. Then again, I was on Nyquil at the time, so maybe I didn't....


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## rockstx (Jan 18, 2007)

So the 9000 series and the lower number HD channels are the exact same quality signal?



James Long said:


> When dish started adding HD channels they put them up out of the way in the 9400's. Eventually they introduced "mapped down" channels for HD (which is what most of the three digit HD channels are ... mapdowns of the higher numbers).
> 
> The intent of the mapdowns/ lower channel numbers is to have the HD channels available side by side with the SD channels and make them easier to find. More existing customers would remember the channel number for 140 ESPN than 94whatever for ESPN HD. As DISH added channels with mapdowns the new channels instantly appeared in the guide right next to the existing HD channels and were tuned if someone simply keyed in the SD channel number (unless one has the mapdowns turned off).
> 
> The 9400s are a decent way of grouping all of the channels together ... an "all HD" lineup (although there is now HD grouped in other places in the numbering system).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rockstx said:


> So the 9000 series and the lower number HD channels are the exact same quality signal?


Yes ... they are the exact same SIGNAL simply being displayed on multiple channel numbers.


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## Hardin Thicke (Jun 18, 2008)

James Long said:


> Yes ... they are the exact same SIGNAL simply being displayed on multiple channel numbers.


So if I wanted to tidy the guide up a bit, can I blank the upper channels, or is it best to just make a personal giude and forget the "Subscribed" guide altogether?


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## CorpITGuy (Apr 12, 2007)

I created a personalized guide.

I also find the "All HD" guide pretty handy. When there's nothing in particular I want to watch, I often use this. There is very little HD content outside of Comedy Central & Fox News that I care about anyway.


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

Hardin Thicke said:


> So if I wanted to tidy the guide up a bit, can I blank the upper channels, or is it best to just make a personal giude and forget the "Subscribed" guide altogether?


Or you can go under the Locks menu; Channel Locks. Select the channels you don't want to see and then Hide Locks and lock the system. This removes the channels you selected from not only the guide but the search and themes as well.


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## RollTide1017 (Oct 12, 2008)

garys said:


> Or you can go under the Locks menu; Channel Locks. Select the channels you don't want to see and then Hide Locks and lock the system. This removes the channels you selected from not only the guide but the search and themes as well.


That sounds like a great idea. Thanks.


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## cocoario (Nov 5, 2008)

Or only subscribe to the HD channels.


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## mikesz (Mar 28, 2006)

Strange, when I view the higher channels vs the same ones on the lower mapped channels the HD appears to have a higher resolution or more clarity. I don't have the measurement tools to measure the bit rates or the encoding used but clearly when I have recorded the "same" program from both sources I prefer the higher numbered channel presentation. This is true when on my Sharp 46" SE LCD or the JVC RS2 projector. Different sats? Different encoding?


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## William (Oct 28, 2006)

mikesz said:


> Strange, when I view the higher channels vs the same ones on the lower mapped channels the HD appears to have a higher resolution or more clarity. I don't have the measurement tools to measure the bit rates or the encoding used but clearly when I have recorded the "same" program from both sources I prefer the higher numbered channel presentation. This is true when on my Sharp 46" SE LCD or the JVC RS2 projector. Different sats? Different encoding?


Impossible since it is the same exact data stream. The only difference is the label (channel display number). If you change from the same low channel to the same high the only thing that changes is the display number.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

Maybe he's recording the SD version of the channel when he's looking at the lower number.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

puckwithahalo said:


> Maybe he's recording the SD version of the channel when he's looking at the lower number.


Possible ... that would be the only answer that would be a different feed.


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## mikesz (Mar 28, 2006)

James Long said:


> Possible ... that would be the only answer that would be a different feed.


I recorded both with the hd logo indicated. Plus the byte usage was at the HD levels not at SD. Curiously, the total storage used was almost 10% less on the "higher" channel numbers. I switched back and forth between the recordings to see what was going on and that's why I suspect a different CODEC in use. Certainly there will be data differences in the commercials (whether or not they are HD, length, etc.) but I wouldn't expect there to be that great a difference for an hour program. Minor differences occur in exactly when the recording started and stopped but I used the same default in both of them so the minutes recorded were similar. I deleted the ones that used more storage which were also the ones I felt had lower clarity (a non-technical term used deliberately). For them being a different feed or time of feed, I bounced between two when they were being sent at the same time and could detect the difference. There may have been a delay inherent in one signal which I cannot quantify. All I have is the single 622 which is working it's little brain out trying to decode/decrypt/sync when switching channels.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

OK ... one more test.
Go to the high channel ... press INFO twice ... write down the satellite number on the left hand side of the screen above where the description goes.
Go to the low channel ... press INFO twice ... see if it is the same number.
Report back the channel numbers and the satellite number given.


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## William (Oct 28, 2006)

mikesz said:


> I recorded both with the hd logo indicated. Plus the byte usage was at the HD levels not at SD. Curiously, the total storage used was almost 10% less on the "higher" channel numbers....


The point is there are no different higher or lower number channels. Here is an analogy:

You think that when you open the pantry there are 2 cans of soup: 1 labeled 200 Tomato and the other labeled 9000 Tomato. When you open one it tastes slightly different than the other. That is plausible but not what is happening.

In actuality when you open the pantry there is only one can of soup. On the front the label says 05 Tomato and on the back the label says 9000 Tomato. When you turn the can around to the back it CAN'T taste any different than when looking at the front.

There are NOT 2 cans of soup to choose from but the same exact can with a different label.


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## mikesz (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks for telling me how to determine which sat is being received. I expect there are more menu options available which I don't know or haven't used.
Dish chan - 362 . . . sat 110
Dish chan - 9422 . . . sat 110

Is there a way to get encoding, actual sat channel, bit rate, signal polarity, etc off of the 622? I know that there are charts which list how Dish has allocated a satellite channel but those are dated and unless you can read what/where and can read data rate (which is a function of transmitter power) Dish can reassign those pretty freely to give better signals to those willing to pay more and to account for atmosphere conditions.


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## tedb3rd (Feb 2, 2006)

...better to have them listed twice than not at all!

Click here to see my other post.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

So, do you hunt snipes in your spare time?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mikesz said:


> Thanks for telling me how to determine which sat is being received. I expect there are more menu options available which I don't know or haven't used.
> Dish chan - 362 . . . sat 110
> Dish chan - 9422 . . . sat 110


That one is the exact same signal. I was hoping there was some oddity such as pulling one off of 61.5° and the other off of 129° - something that shouldn't happen but we're hunting for any explaination. Pulling one off of 110° and the other off of 72° would actually be an explaination.

That channel (HDNet) is still an MPEG2 HD channel. The 9422 mapped 362 version is marked for ViP receivers only so older receivers can't see those channels. On December 1st it is expected that they will finally become MPEG4 HD on 110°. (The 72° version should already be MPEG4. There is a third mapping for MPEG2 receivers in the 5500's ... all three are the SAME FEED from 110°.)


> Is there a way to get encoding, actual sat channel, bit rate, signal polarity, etc off of the 622? I know that there are charts which list how Dish has allocated a satellite channel but those are dated and unless you can read what/where and can read data rate (which is a function of transmitter power) Dish can reassign those pretty freely to give better signals to those willing to pay more and to account for atmosphere conditions.


None that I know of (without unauthorized meddling with the hardware - ie hacking).


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## mikesz (Mar 28, 2006)

So the MPEG2 vs MPEG4 would explain the picture clarity with more efficient compression/restoration and also the byte storage difference. I asume that the satellite transponder bandwidth would be optimized for Dish's favor which is why they went through the trouble to implement MPEG4. Amazing that you (me) get something which is actually better rather than less for the same money. (Like the "fun sized" candy bars for Halloween which cost the same as last years bigger candy bars).

Thanks James Long for the info.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Except in this case BOTH channels you are seeing from 110° are MPEG2 HD ... and it is the same exact feed under three different channel numbers (9422 mapped to 362 for ViP receivers and currently on 6204 for MPEG2 receivers - until December 1st). That same feed is also used for 4262 and 5350. Maps and mirrors all pointing to the same exact streams on the satellite.


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## dishlover2 (Aug 24, 2008)

James Long said:


> Yes ... they are the exact same SIGNAL simply being displayed on multiple channel numbers.


true but channel 300 comes up eg hbo the hbo hd when u punch in ch 300 which happens to be with an sd and hd copy it defaults to hd but if you want to save recording space sd on my 612 allows 200 hours hd in comparison is up to 60 hours press up to see the sd copy then hit record:d


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