# Buyer's Remorse



## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

I just had D* installed today (an HR23-700). I signed up for the 'Plus HD DVR' package. With the current promotions, the price is pretty nice. But, so far I'm not very impressed with Direct's DVR software; guide software; or remote control. I'm also not very happy to realize that there's no PIP or easy swapping between both live tuners (I did find the workaround thread, but still). :nono2:

I've had TWC for many years and have nearly always been very satisfied, but their new 'Navigator' DVR software is pretty lousy and they've been slow to roll out HD channels. So, I thought I'd drop cable and try out DirecTV, all while saving a little money and getting more HD plus twice the DVR hard drive space.

However, Last August, I added DishNetwork Turbo HD-only service with their VIP722 DVR as a supplement to my TWC. Essentially, DishNet was intended to be a trial for me to see if I'd be satisfied with satellite service compared to cable. My Dish experience was good enough to get me to drop TWC and switch to DirecTV (in addition to Dish). But, I guess DishNetwork has just spoiled me for anyone else, cuz their DVR; guide; and remote control are greatly superior to both TWC and DirectTV (oh, and don't get me started on the complete garbage that is Comcast).

Not to mention that DirecTV didn't exactly get off on the best foot with me. I had a noon-4pm appointment for yesterday that kept getting pushed back until 7pm. I then asked them to reschedule since I didn't think they would do a very good job in the dark. They were supposed to come out today at noon and I was supposed to be first job of the afternoon block. The guy finally arrived at 3:45pm. Then, I also was not pleased to find out that (unlike DishNet) DirecTV considers installation on a stand-alone pole to be 'custom' and he would charge $75. So, I let him go ahead and drill holes in the roof since I wasn't willing to pay extra. 

So, now I feel like I shoulda just kept my TWC cable and avoided the hassle of another satellite install. :nono2:

Alas, I'm probably stuck with my decision for the next two years. Anyone know if there is any sort of 'satisfaction guarantee' where I could just cancel D* within (say 3 days of install date) and not have to pay any penalties or fees? I've looked all over their website, but have found nothing. 

I'm gonna sleep on it, and will probably just keep it anyway, but if there's the option of changing my mind without a big penalty I might jump at the chance and not look back.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Rob052067 said:


> Anyone know if there is any sort of 'satisfaction guarantee' where I could just cancel D* within (say 3 days of install date) and not have to pay any penalties or fees?


Once your service is activated, you're locked into the contract. It's not a good policy, but that's the way it works.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Rob052067 said:


> I just had D* installed today (an HR23-700). I signed up for the 'Plus HD DVR' package. With the current promotions, the price is pretty nice. But, so far I'm not very impressed with Direct's DVR software; guide software; or remote control. I'm also not very happy to realize that there's no PIP or easy swapping between both live tuners (I did find the workaround thread, but still). :nono2:
> 
> I've had TWC for many years and have nearly always been very satisfied, but their new 'Navigator' DVR software is pretty lousy and they've been slow to roll out HD channels. So, I thought I'd drop cable and try out DirecTV, all while saving a little money and getting more HD plus twice the DVR hard drive space.
> 
> ...


 You need to check out your state's consumer protection laws to find an answer.:sure:

P.S. Good Luck with TWC or Dish.Be sure to make sure the provider you choose has the channels you want,because they all don't have the same channels.:nono2:


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## BlackHitachi (Jan 1, 2004)

Jeremy W said:


> Once your service is activated, you're locked into the contract. It's not a good policy, but that's the way it works.


I thought you have 30 days?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BlackHitachi said:


> I thought you have 30 days?


You should, but you don't.


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## Johnnie5000 (Mar 26, 2008)

Jeremy W said:


> You should, but you don't.


+1

You can always plant a tree infront of your dish. No LOS will get you out of one of those contracts.


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## rahlquist (Jul 24, 2007)

Rob052067 said:


> I'm gonna sleep on it, and will probably just keep it anyway, but if there's the option of changing my mind without a big penalty I might jump at the chance and not look back.


Rob, you may just want to give it a shot anyhow, I think as long as that installer did a good job you will be very happy with the service. Keep in mind too that while the installers are a representative of D* they are all sub contractors and their work ethics vary and you could perhaps have just been a victim of one that either over schedules or is over slow.

Good Luck!


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm convincing myself that the shortcomings are outweighed by the cost savings....


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

Well, I called D* to ask about cancel policy (ie: trial period). At first, the rep advised that once service is installed and activated, it cannot be canceled without meeting the contract penalties (according to D* policies). But, I asked her if the laws in Ohio allowed for no penalty cancellation within a certain period. She researched her system and then spoke to a supervisor, and confirmed that Ohio law gives me 14 days from the date of the order to cancel without penalty - even after installation and activation. I ordered on 12/30 and it was installed on 1/4. So I still have a week or so to make a final decision. I'll give it a couple days to grow on me before I decide.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Rob052067 said:


> Well, I called D* to ask about cancel policy (ie: trial period). At first, the rep advised that once service is installed and activated, it cannot be canceled without meeting the contract penalties (according to D* policies). But, I asked her if the laws in Ohio allowed for no penalty cancellation within a certain period. She researched her system and then spoke to a supervisor, and confirmed that Ohio law gives me 14 days from the date of the order to cancel without penalty - even after installation and activation. I ordered on 12/30 and it was installed on 1/4. So I still have a week or so to make a final decision. I'll give it a couple days to grow on me before I decide.


That's good news for you! I hope you find what you're looking for in a TV provider. As you've found out there are shortcomings to each service and you have to do what's best for you.

Good luck!


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## DishCSR (Jan 14, 2004)

Rob052067 said:


> Well, I called D* to ask about cancel policy (ie: trial period). At first, the rep advised that once service is installed and activated, it cannot be canceled without meeting the contract penalties (according to D* policies). But, I asked her if the laws in Ohio allowed for no penalty cancellation within a certain period. She researched her system and then spoke to a supervisor, and confirmed that Ohio law gives me 14 days from the date of the order to cancel without penalty - even after installation and activation. I ordered on 12/30 and it was installed on 1/4. So I still have a week or so to make a final decision. I'll give it a couple days to grow on me before I decide.


I wouldn't count on that, it's 72 hrs from date of activation, and that's what you'll be held to if you do cancel


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## Incog-Neato (Apr 21, 2006)

Last I checked it was 24hrs (overidden by state laws requiring a greater specific time). The 72hrs you are probably thinking of is the Federal law for mortgages and some other home related contracts. If it is greater then 24hrs I would like to know (a specific internal link would be fine) because I could put that information to very good use.


DishCSR said:


> I wouldn't count on that, it's 72 hrs from date of activation, and that's what you'll be held to if you do cancel


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## heisman (Feb 11, 2007)

If he decided to cancel before an imposed ETF, would they give him his money back for the receivers he purchased?


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

DishCSR said:


> I wouldn't count on that, it's 72 hrs from date of activation, and that's what you'll be held to if you do cancel


Well, rather than take any chances, I went ahead and canceled today and re-hooked up my TWC box. The D* rep did her best to try to overcome my reservations about their equipment & software, but I just knew that I wasn't going to like it in the long run. Perhaps when D* offers real Tivo again, I might re-consider. For now, I still love my Dish 722, and will just hope that TWC continues to improve their new Navigator software and adding more HD (we're up to around 50 here now).



heisman said:


> If he decided to cancel before an imposed ETF, would they give him his money back for the receivers he purchased?


I confirmed there would be no ETF (thanks to Ohio law). There were no up front costs for install or equipment, so there's nothing to refund back to me.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

And DirecTV's commitment policy backfires again. Rob would have left the system installed to try to get used to it, but the fear of a hefty ETF and 2-year commitment forced him to cancel before giving DirecTV a chance.


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## Bryan_J_T (Jun 10, 2008)

Good luck. Last time I canceled I was assured that there would not be an ETF, and then there it was on the next bill. I fought it all the way up to the presidents office every day over the course of a month and the best I was able to do was get it cut in half.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Upstream said:


> And DirecTV's commitment policy backfires again. Rob would have left the system installed to try to get used to it, but the fear of a hefty ETF and 2-year commitment forced him to cancel before giving DirecTV a chance.


I could be wrong, but I attribute it more to a combination of his mind already being made up plus the FUD spread by some around here contradicting what DirecTV told him.


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## shmengie (Apr 12, 2007)

i'd like to commend rob052067 on not being a basher here. so many of these threads are people just blindly pissing and moaning and being real jerks. (i usually only click on these "goodbye d*" threads to watch the trainwreck and laugh). rob052067 just rationally stated his dislikes and asked some questions (and got some answers).

so, thx rob052067, hope it all works out for you!


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

shmengie said:


> i'd like to commend rob052067 on not being a basher here. so many of these threads are people just blindly pissing and moaning and being real jerks. (i usually only click on these "goodbye d*" threads to watch the trainwreck and laugh). rob052067 just rationally stated his dislikes and asked some questions (and got some answers).
> 
> so, thx rob052067, hope it all works out for you!


I agree.


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## LOCODUDE (Aug 8, 2007)

shmengie said:


> i'd like to commend rob052067 on not being a basher here. so many of these threads are people just blindly pissing and moaning and being real jerks. (i usually only click on these "goodbye d*" threads to watch the trainwreck and laugh). rob052067 just rationally stated his dislikes and asked some questions (and got some answers).
> 
> so, thx rob052067, hope it all works out for you!


Indeed.............My sentiments exactly!


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

shmengie said:


> i'd like to commend rob052067 on not being a basher here. so many of these threads are people just blindly pissing and moaning and being real jerks. (i usually only click on these "goodbye d*" threads to watch the trainwreck and laugh). rob052067 just rationally stated his dislikes and asked some questions (and got some answers).
> 
> so, thx rob052067, hope it all works out for you!


Makes the site so much more productive! In fact, a lesson was even learned. You may not even have to research the facts yourself, ask the DirecTV agent which law(s) apply to your state.

With any system, the User Interface and the Remote will always be tough on the brain to translate. When I switched to my first HR20 DVR, it took a good month to train my brain how to handle the remote and how to effectly work through the user interface. If it is financially advantageous, I'm sure you'll find yourself getting more accustomed to the equipment as time goes by.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences in a constructive manner.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

This could be a great example of maybe having a 30days try before you buy kind of Trial.
Lets say for $25 dollars you can try Direct Unlimited. Give them time to learn. Its proven if you say "Free" for a length of time people will ignore it, a Small fee looks better. Direct User Interface, seems to take Avg users, or users that are used to easier UI, sometime to learn. I know that once DLB and Autotune are added to HRXX machines, the only battle I will have is convincing the Family that the UI is really that hard, and I can finally get NFL ST. Yes the family has played with the UI on a regular basis, when we go over to Brother in laws.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

GrumpyBear said:


> This could be a great example of maybe having a 30days try before you buy kind of Trial.
> Lets say for $25 dollars you can try Direct Unlimited. Give them time to learn. Its proven if you say "Free" for a length of time people will ignore it, a Small fee looks better. Direct User Interface, seems to take Avg users, or users that are used to easier UI, sometime to learn. I know that once DLB and Autotune are added to HRXX machines, the only battle I will have is convincing the Family that the UI is really that hard, and I can finally get NFL ST. Yes the family has played with the UI on a regular basis, when we go over to Brother in laws.


There are hundreds of dollars invested upfront by DirecTV in the installation for labor and equipment. In theory it's a fine idea, but in practice it's just not possible for this type of business.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> There are hundreds of dollars invested upfront by DirecTV in the installation for labor and equipment. In theory it's a fine idea, but in practice it's just not possible for this type of business.


We do Trial units for people all the time. Setup fees are waived, and client only has to pay for material used. Setup/Removal fees avg $1000, a unit. We make it up if they buy/lease the equipment down the road. Our company does it and so does the competition. You will be amazed HOW much market you can capture. Granted our Western Region only did 1.2 Billion in hardware and software business last year. 2008 was a HARD year too, but we still grew.
Direct and Dish could capture more of the Cable market if people didn't have to worry about that 2yr commitment, bad enough when it was 1 yr or 18months, sets peoples minds at ease, that they only buy it if they like it. They call in friendly to ask questions, and not all mad that it isn't working.
We don't win all, and normally only lose when the competition lowers the price of consumables to a level where there is no margin left.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

GrumpyBear said:


> We do Trial units for people all the time. Setup fees are waived, and client only has to pay for material used. Setup/Removal fees avg $1000, a unit. We make it up if they buy/lease the equipment down the road. Our company does it and so does the competition. You will be amazed HOW much market you can capture. Granted our Western Region only did 1.2 Billion in hardware and software business last year. 2008 was a HARD year too, but we still grew.
> Direct and Dish could capture more of the Cable market if people didn't have to worry about that 2yr commitment, bad enough when it was 1 yr or 18months, sets peoples minds at ease, that they only buy it if they like it. They call in friendly to ask questions, and not all mad that it isn't working.
> We don't win all, and normally only lose when the competition lowers the price of consumables to a level where there is no margin left.


I assume you're talking about a different business than satellite systems?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> I assume you're talking about a different business than satellite systems?


Yes different than Sat, and I am not talking about doing a 30day Trial for along period for Direct. Slow period like July or August, do a 30 day trial for people that want to in that month. August/September would be good too, just imagine all the NFL Geeks getting caught up, signing up for 2yrs, after they learn all the workarounds.
Granted for New Clients, Direct will do a Fee install anyways, and end up with unhappy people that even for free, complain loud enough to keep neighbors from trying it. For $25(just a number) some might be willing to try it just to see, and learn things not out of frustration but out of curiosity, and they wouldn't be complaining afterwards, about the bad taste even if they didn't signup.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

In the case of the OP, he had to pay $75 for "custom installation". If DirecTV had the customer pay the installation costs, then their only out-of-pocket expenses would be for the dish (since the receiver gets returned back to DirecTV anyway).

And with the customer paying installation costs, there may be a benefit to using independent installers (especially in areas where DirecTV's installers are lacking in customer satisfaction).

There are very easy ways for DirecTV to ensure they recoup their direct expenses from installing a new customer, without locking that customer into a commitment.

But, of course, the real purpose of the commitment isn't to enable DirecTV to recoup its direct expenses (if it were, the length of the commitment would be tied to the amount DirecTV spends). The real purpose of the commitment is to reduce churn.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

Thanks for all your comments and feedback everyone. 

Personally, I was really looking forward to switching to D* and to saving a few bucks each month. I've mildly considered switching for a long time, especially after TWC changed their DVR software (from the excellent Passport to their so-so 'in-house' Navigator). The greater selection of HD channels and larger DVR hard drive (compared to TWC) were also good incentives. But, the two things that finally got me to switch were the dropping of the up-front cost of the HD-DVR lease fee (from $199 to $0), and especially the expected rebate of $250 for activating D* after buying a new TV from Costco for Christmas. Unfortunately, it's not all about getting the lowest price possible. I watch a lot of TV and I have some pretty high expectations from my service providers.

I think some of you make a good point that if D* offered a true 'Trial Period' where new customers had a few weeks (ie: 30 days) to really test out the system and get used to it, I might have stuck it out and gotten used to it's shortcomings (like I did with TWC new Navigator - which was a huge step backwards from Passport). But the feeling that if I didn't act immediately I would be 'trapped' in 2-year commitment for something I wasn't certain that I would really like was the catalyst to act right away and cancel.

I was seriously interested in D*. My experience with DishNetwork over the past several months had already calmed my biggest fear about satellite service: that of losing the signal during bad weather (it's a pretty rare occurance). I had even ordered a couple of DTV receiver coupons and antennas for the old TV's in my bedroom and guest room since the basic cable in those rooms would have been turned off after cancelling TWC. 

I think that if I had never used another provider's DVR before (especially DishNetwork's excellent system); or if I was a really big sports fan (which D* has the best selection of channels); or if I had really crappy cable service like Comcast or Charter (like my friends in Michigan have), then I might have been happier with Direct's software and hardware. 

I've heard that D* is planning on bring back Tivo service as an option. I'll probably give them another look when that happens.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Sorry to hear about how things worked out for you, but glad that you were not stuck with no way out!

As for giving it another shot when/if they get a TiVo receiver in their arsenal, you may have a little trouble after backing out now. Not sure about that and certainly not based on any experience, but in the back of my mind the whole "once bitten, twice shy" thing is rattling around. DirecTV may not be as free with incentives as they may have been this time.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

JLucPicard said:


> Sorry to hear about how things worked out for you, but glad that you were not stuck with no way out!


Me too!



JLucPicard said:


> As for giving it another shot when/if they get a TiVo receiver in their arsenal, you may have a little trouble after backing out now. Not sure about that and certainly not based on any experience, but in the back of my mind the whole "once bitten, twice shy" thing is rattling around. DirecTV may not be as free with incentives as they may have been this time.


We'll see. The phone rep did say they were sorry to see me cancel and would love to have me back anytime. All the reps I spoke with were polite and professional. Plus, since the dish and wiring are already installed at my house, it should be fairly cheap for D* to re-establish service if I ever decided to do so. Who knows...


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

Its interesting that you found D* that much inferior to the 722. I have both (new to D*) and after a couple of hours use I really haven't found anything lacking. Except that I can't just press the guide button twice to get HD channels only (I have to press 3 different buttons).

One thing I love about the Directv PVR is FFing through commercials it jumps back a bit when you hit play so you don't miss the resumption of the program. And the picture quality on the HD channels is _definitely better._


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Rob052067 said:


> Me too!
> 
> We'll see. The phone rep did say they were sorry to see me cancel and would love to have me back anytime. All the reps I spoke with were polite and professional. Plus, since the dish and wiring are already installed at my house, it should be fairly cheap for D* to re-establish service if I ever decided to do so. Who knows...


I wouldn't be concerned about DirecTV taking you back...they'll do it as soon as you call...and you'll probably start getting calls, letters begging you to give them another chance.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> There are hundreds of dollars invested upfront by DirecTV in the installation for labor and equipment. In theory it's a fine idea, but in practice it's just not possible for this type of business.


That's a load of crap. No other non-satellite TV provider even has a contract in the first place, so cancelling is never an issue. Not only does DirecTV have a contract, but they don't even have a trial period.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> That's a load of crap. No other non-satellite TV provider even has a contract in the first place, so cancelling is never an issue. Not only does DirecTV have a contract, but they don't even have a trial period.


Easy, killer. 

Comcast was an average of $20 more per month for me. They get it back somehow, Jeremy. They do have costs up front, whether you want to believe it or not.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> That's a load of crap. No other non-satellite TV provider even has a contract in the first place, so cancelling is never an issue. Not only does DirecTV have a contract, but they don't even have a trial period.


Its not just Direct, Dish has the EXACT same issue, with the Contract that starts the second you activate the reciever. 
Now to be fair to both of them though, Cable companies have a Monopoly, in a given area. Where I live, I get TWC and ONLY TWC, I couldn't get another Cable provider if I wanted too(and that ain't happeing, either way). TWC has no Competition from other Cable people, in the Early days, Cable companies where Paid in US Tax dollars, to help them out, Direct and Dish and other Sat companies don't have that advantage. 
I still think That Direct, could win more people over with a 30 free Trial Blitz, once a year. Target August, it would run into September, and all those football nutz will sign up.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

peano said:


> And the picture quality on the HD channels is _definitely better._


Double check your HD setup on the 722 to make sure it's set for 720p or 1080i. The guy who installed mine originally left it set to 480p and I didn't even realize it at first. Just thought Dish HD was inferior to cable until I figured out that the HD setting just needed to be changed. If both of your boxes are set to the same setting (and connected in the same manner (ie: HDMI)), it should be nearly impossible to tell any difference.

Dish's DVR is not perfect either, but I think it is overall a much better user experience vs. Direct. Especially the remote control!! Just off hand, I like that Dish's 30-second skip is instant rather than taking a few seconds to ffwd thru 30-seconds. I like that TWC and Direct both jump back a few seconds after ffwd, but it is painless and easy to just hit the jump-back button if I go past where I intended. I like that TWC and Direct continue to buffer live TV on both tuners while you are watching a recording (although only via a workaround on Direct since there's no PIP or tuner swap on the remote). Dish only buffers the 'other' tuner when viewing a recording. Dish's guide; recording list; series scheduler; search features; and various customization options are clearly better (IMO) than any other service I've tried so far (though I've never used a real 'Tivo').

Of course, I know everyone will have their own personal impressions of the various software and equipment of each provider, and their likes and dislikes will vary by personal needs and preferences. C'est La Vie!


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Rob052067 said:


> Just off hand, I like that Dish's 30-second skip is instant rather than taking a few seconds to ffwd thru 30-seconds.


Moot point now, but this is actually something that could have been changed by doing a keyword search for "30SKIP" in the DVR. :shrug:


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Rob052067 said:


> Dish only buffers the 'other' tuner when viewing a recording. Dish's guide; recording list; series scheduler; search features; and various customization options are clearly better (IMO) than any other service I've tried so far (though I've never used a real 'Tivo').
> QUOTE]
> Dish Buffers both tuners, on the ViP722/622. Thats why the ViP has DLB(Dual Live Buffers) and PiP.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

Jeremy W said:


> That's a load of crap. No other non-satellite TV provider even has a contract in the first place, so cancelling is never an issue. Not only does DirecTV have a contract, but they don't even have a trial period.





GrumpyBear said:


> Its not just Direct, Dish has the EXACT same issue, with the Contract that starts the second you activate the reciever.
> Now to be fair to both of them though, Cable companies have a Monopoly, in a given area. Where I live, I get TWC and ONLY TWC, I couldn't get another Cable provider if I wanted too (and that ain't happeing, either way). TWC has no Competition from other Cable people, in the Early days, Cable companies where Paid in US Tax dollars, to help them out, Direct and Dish and other Sat companies don't have that advantage. I still think that Direct, could win more people over with a 30 free Trial Blitz, once a year. Target August, it would run into September, and all those football nutz will sign up.


Yes, like DirecTV, DishNetwork also has the same 24 mos commitment. But, in both cases, I think they offer options for no-commitment service. But without a commitment you don't get free installation & activation, or any of the bonus perks like free premium channels for the first 3 months.

In Columbus, we have more choices/competition than most areas. We have two cable companies that overlap most areas (TWC & WOW; or Insight & WOW), and AT&T uVerse is still expanding their service area (but not to my neighborhood, yet). Cable and uVerse have up front install costs, and they usually ofter trial periods and free install without commitments. I don't think Satellite's up front costs are so much greater than cable's that they couldn't also offer new service with free trial periods. I think their losses would be offset by keeping more new customer's that were willing to give them a try out.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

Rob052067 said:


> Dish only buffers the 'other' tuner when viewing a recording. Dish's guide; recording list; series scheduler; search features; and various customization options are clearly better (IMO) than any other service I've tried so far (though I've never used a real 'Tivo').





GrumpyBear said:


> Dish Buffers both tuners, on the ViP722/622. Thats why the ViP has DLB(Dual Live Buffers) and PiP.


Both tuners do buffer if you are watching live TV and switching between the two tuners. But, if you are watching a recorded program, the current tuner does not buffer. Only the alternate tuner buffers while watching a recording. This functions the same way on SD 522's and HD 722's (my folks have one of each). I'm assuming the HD 622 also does the same thing, but I have never used one.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Rob052067 said:


> Both tuners do buffer if you are watching live TV and switching between the two tuners. But, if you are watching a recorded program, the current tuner does not buffer. Only the alternate tuner buffers while watching a recording. This functions the same way on SD 522's and HD 722's (my folks have one of each). I'm assuming the HD 622 also does the same thing, but I have ever used one.


Yes that is true, and I reread your post, I miss read it the 1st time.


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## heisman (Feb 11, 2007)

Rob,

When you cancel within the first couple of days do they come back out and take the dish and pull the wiring?


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

heisman said:


> Rob,
> 
> When you cancel within the first couple of days do they come back out and take the dish and pull the wiring?


No; they only have you ship back the receivers, and for Dish, the LNB. It isn't cost-effective to remove the dish and cables.

That's another reason why there are no free trials, BTW. People would figure out that they could get their entire house wired up for free by "trying" satellite. Abuse would be rampent in many areas (customers already try it).


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## kentuck1163 (Apr 20, 2006)

I can't believe they called the pole installation a "custom" installation. DirecTV came and installed my system, brought a pole, concrete, dug the hole, installed the pole and dish, and FOUR TVs in my house (installation took 5-6 hours) and never charged me a CENT. I did give the guy a tip (I think I just gave him $20, and in retrospect it should have been more) because he did such an awesome job. I mean, he buried the wire from the pole to the house, did the wiring very neatly - a GREAT job. Maybe I was lucky.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Rob052067 said:


> I don't think Satellite's up front costs are so much greater than cable's that they couldn't also offer new service with free trial periods.


I know what the costs are, and the difference is huge. Keep in mind that any area that's less than 30 years old, the costs of the cable distribution were paid by the housing developer. To "turn on" cable, a tech normally comes out, removes a locking terminator, and connects your feed cable to a tap. He'll then add a receiver or two, and maybe run a line to an additional room. Most cable installs are quick and cheap, other than the receiver(s). Installers get paid based on 30 minutes of work, unless the customer wants additional work which they pay for.

Satellite has to pay for the dish, the installation labor (the price they pay the HSP, NOT the pittance the installer makes), and in most cases, a sales commission, in addition to the receivers. In many cases, custom mounts and other additional work is involved, and customers won't pay that for a "trial". And many "trial" customers would object to a dish and cabling being left behind, and/or holes left from their removal.

Believe what you wish, but the costs are no where close.


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## rey_1178 (Dec 12, 2007)

Ken S said:


> I wouldn't be concerned about DirecTV taking you back...they'll do it as soon as you call...and you'll probably start getting calls, letters begging you to give them another chance.


 I agree. almost two years ago i signed up with Directv and I had similar complaints to the op's and because of the fear over the 2 year contract I canceled after 2 hours of my install and stayed with dish. back then the deals offered didn't include free equipment so I had to pay upfront $200 that I lost when i canceled. I was just happy at the time to not pay more in penalties due to a contract. 7 months later after being with dish for 10 years I finally got sick of waiting around for certain channels and I was getting tired of the way dish was being run by charlie. so I went back to D and they gave me all the new customer deals.they never even brought up that i once had an account with them.I too had the vip 622 and 222 which I do love but I am very happy with my HR21-100 and my H21-200! Superb customer service and I'm getting almost everything I want! I have no regrets on going back to Directv. Being very satisfied with them,after 10 years with Dish I canceled their service. 
My point is you shouldn't have any issues with Directv if you decide to go back.Yes their Dvr's are different but not in a bad way. You get use to the differences quick.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

IIP said:


> That's another reason why there are no free trials, BTW. People would figure out that they could get their entire house wired up for free by "trying" satellite. Abuse would be rampent in many areas (customers already try it).


I don't buy this argument, because cable providers already do it. You can get your whole house wired up by the cable company, and shut off service the next day if you want to.

Not quite sure what good all that coax in your walls would do you without service, though...


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

kentuck1163 said:


> I can't believe they called the pole installation a "custom" installation. DirecTV came and installed my system, brought a pole, concrete, dug the hole, installed the pole and dish, and FOUR TVs in my house (installation took 5-6 hours) and never charged me a CENT. I did give the guy a tip (I think I just gave him $20, and in retrospect it should have been more) because he did such an awesome job. I mean, he buried the wire from the pole to the house, did the wiring very neatly - a GREAT job. Maybe I was lucky.


You were. I'd have charged an absolute minimum of $85 just for the pole mount and 10' of trenching. $2/foot beyond 10'.

As a contractor, making what HSPs consider to be top pay, I'd make $110 for a 4-room install, and would have to pay all costs out of that, including supplies. A job like yours would use at least $15 in compression connectors alone. Probably $30-40 for cable. At least $5-10 more in other supplies. Then there is fuel and maintenance to drive there, and insurance premiums. In the end, I'd have made $10/hour or so. In the Bay Area, that's poverty wages. And in the midwest, a contractor would likely make more like $90 for the same job.

"Throwing in" $20+ more dollars in supplies and at least an extra hour's worth of work for free is insane. But many installers, when they are new and don't know any better, are pressured to do that stuff for free. That's why less than 1/3 of installers last more than 3 months; they can't afford to work the job.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> I don't buy this argument, because cable providers already do it. You can get your whole house wired up by the cable company, and shut off service the next day if you want to.
> 
> Not quite sure what good all that coax in your walls would do you without service, though...


They do it because they are forced to, given that they've been awarded a monopoly from their city in most areas. It's part of their franchise agreement.

And, yes, that coax is valuable. It can distribute signals from your OTA antenna, or connect extra rooms for your satellite systems, that would normally have cost you extra money, so that you can move your receivers around.


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## roadrunner1782 (Sep 28, 2008)

No; they only have you ship back the receivers, and for Dish, the LNB. It isn't cost-effective to remove the dish and cables.

That's another reason why there are no free trials, BTW. People would figure out that they could get their entire house wired up for free by "trying" satellite. Abuse would be rampent in many areas (customers already try it).

I always wondered why I saw so many Dish network dishes without lnb's around here!!! But do they really expect every customer that has a dish on their roof (not pole mount) to go up their and take off the lnb to send it back!!!!:eek2:


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

IIP said:


> And, yes, that coax is valuable. It can distribute signals from your OTA antenna, or connect extra rooms for your satellite systems, that would normally have cost you extra money, so that you can move your receivers around.


OK, you're explaining how someone would get value from absuing the install from a cable company. Aside from the OTA distribution, which is a shaky argument, what benefit would someone gain from signing up for DirecTV just to have wiring run?

The reason I say the OTA argument is shaky is because I really don't believe that someone who is going to be OTA-exclusive is going to go through the hassle of having DirecTV installed just to get coax run. If they really wanted to be cheap like that, why not just have the local cable company do it?


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> The reason I say the OTA argument is shaky is because I really don't believe that someone who is going to be OTA-exclusive is going to go through the hassle of having DirecTV installed just to get coax run. If they really wanted to be cheap like that, why not just have the local cable company do it?


You must be from the nicer part of Detroit... When I was installing myself, I'd get at least a 2-3 customers a month who wanted to get systems installed for the wiring and/or the dish. Some of them wanted them for cable (existing cable customers who didn't want to pay for additional outlets), some for OTA, and some so they could get a dish so that they could have receivers added to someone else's account and use them at their house (account stacking).

Believe me, it happens, and in the lower-income communities, they figure out every possible way to scam.


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

roadrunner1782 said:


> I always wondered why I saw so many Dish network dishes without lnb's around here!!! But do they really expect every customer that has a dish on their roof (not pole mount) to go up their and take off the lnb to send it back!!!!:eek2:


They are amazingly persistant about it. I had elderly custumors on the phone with E* when I was putting in D* and the CSR was forcong them for 10 minutes to go to the roof and get it. :nono2:
If I do a E* to D* switch I always offer to take down the LNB for them.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

IIP said:


> You must be from the nicer part of Detroit...


I'm in the suburbs, not the city itself.


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## kentuck1163 (Apr 20, 2006)

IIP said:


> You were. I'd have charged an absolute minimum of $85 just for the pole mount and 10' of trenching. $2/foot beyond 10'.
> 
> As a contractor, making what HSPs consider to be top pay, I'd make $110 for a 4-room install, and would have to pay all costs out of that, including supplies. A job like yours would use at least $15 in compression connectors alone. Probably $30-40 for cable. At least $5-10 more in other supplies. Then there is fuel and maintenance to drive there, and insurance premiums. In the end, I'd have made $10/hour or so. In the Bay Area, that's poverty wages. And in the midwest, a contractor would likely make more like $90 for the same job.
> 
> "Throwing in" $20+ more dollars in supplies and at least an extra hour's worth of work for free is insane. But many installers, when they are new and don't know any better, are pressured to do that stuff for free. That's why less than 1/3 of installers last more than 3 months; they can't afford to work the job.


Well, I was new to DirecTV and didn't know better. DTV said the install would be free and I assumed they were paying their installers sufficiently. Anyway, the guy wasn't new. He told me he had been doing installs since the Primestar days. He was VERY nice and it was one of the early HD installs - right after they released the original funky looking HD dish (not the streamlined one). Regardless, he knew exactly what to do. He came with everything he needed and was a true professional. Knowing what I know now I would have tipped him much more....


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

heisman said:


> Rob,
> When you cancel within the first couple of days do they come back out and take the dish and pull the wiring?


The other posters are correct. The dish and wiring stays. D* is sending me a box to return the receiver & remote. Not sure if the box is postage paid, or if I need to pay for it.



IIP said:


> You were. I'd have charged an absolute minimum of $85 just for the pole mount and 10' of trenching. $2/foot beyond 10'.
> 
> As a contractor, making what HSPs consider to be top pay, I'd make $110 for a 4-room install, and would have to pay all costs out of that, including supplies. A job like yours would use at least $15 in compression connectors alone. Probably $30-40 for cable. At least $5-10 more in other supplies. Then there is fuel and maintenance to drive there, and insurance premiums. In the end, I'd have made $10/hour or so. In the Bay Area, that's poverty wages. And in the midwest, a contractor would likely make more like $90 for the same job.
> 
> "Throwing in" $20+ more dollars in supplies and at least an extra hour's worth of work for free is insane. But many installers, when they are new and don't know any better, are pressured to do that stuff for free. That's why less than 1/3 of installers last more than 3 months; they can't afford to work the job.


Thanks for your perspectives and insight IIP (in the above post and others).


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## marly (Jan 7, 2009)

DirecTV’s “contract” (and their crappy installers) is what made me cancel my DirecTV service, after being a customer for the past 10 years, and they lost a new subscription too. 

I think DirecTV’s picture quality is way better than Time Warner, but the 24 month contract really gets me. With Time Warner, I can call them up and cancel it and they’re fine with that. 

Here’s my story, I had DirecTV at another location for the past 10 years. I got married and moved out. I left the service running for my Dad. When my wife and I moved into our new house I went with Time Warner to start with because it was quick & dirty, and I needed the Internet. 
After living in the house for awhile I really missed DirecTV but I didn’t want to install it because I would have to enter into a new “contract” for two years, plus I would have to fork out $400 for the receivers, PLUS I have to pay that receiver lease charge. 

One day I just decided to install the DirecTV at my house, the install date was for 1/4/09, from 12-4. When four o’clock rolled around the installer didn’t show up. My wife called DirecTV who then called the installer company SKYsomething or another called us back within 20 minutes. The lady on the phone had a really nasty tone and said, “The technician is running a little late, I spoke to his supervisor and he WILL be there”. Two hours roll by, my wife calls DirecTV again and asks where the guy is because the installer company said he *WILL* be there and they were really nasty about it. 

My wife says to the DirecTV CSR that we waited for 9hrs for the guy to show up and we were assured the person would arrive and he never did, we spoke to a Supervisor who we had to wait on hold for over an hour to speak to. When we were talking to her we told the story and her attitude was, “So like, what do you want me to do about it?”

I told her I didn’t like her attitude and that I’ve been a customer for 10 years and I’ll cancel that account for the rudeness. She was like, “yeah, like, no you don’t”. So I said, Ok, I’m canceling the new install and then I’m canceling the 10 year old account (here’s the account number, btw it’s subscribed to Premier). 
Long story short, DirecTV lost two accounts with the Premier Package; they’re losing over $208/mo off of me, plus they lost an account with 10 years of service that *NEVER* had a late or missed payment. 
Why? 

Two things:

1) I didn’t like their attitude on the phone 

2)When I was going through the ordeal with the installer I started to feel “trapped” being so close into being in a two year commitment. My mind started wondering because I know I have to get new leased receivers for my old account and then I would be trapped into another contract. 

With Time Warner, yeah, their picture quality sucks, but I’m not locked into a contract with them. Their attitude is still just as bad with the, “Yeah, like we care”. 

marly


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

<shrug> The contract is there because the sat providers are giving you big discounts on the leased receivers as well as paying for the installation.

There is an alternative: buy your receivers and dish outright (the receivers have to be bought directly from DirecTV). It will be expensive, and your monthly costs will be identical, but you won't have a commitment. Really, though, no one does this because is a losing proposition finanacially.

Satellite isn't for everyone.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

There is one main reason I believe that Directv doesn't do trial periods.. The money they pay to have the things installed. They have no way to recoup that cost if someone cancels the day after its installed for that job. Frankly, I think that they should say that if you cancel within 7 days, you have to pay the labor for the install.. That would fix the cost issue. Reality is, labor is NOT refundable, anywhere.


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## IcedOmega13 (Mar 3, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> There is one main reason I believe that Directv doesn't do trial periods.. The money they pay to have the things installed. They have no way to recoup that cost if someone cancels the day after its installed for that job. Frankly, I think that they should say that if you cancel within 7 days, you have to pay the labor for the install.. That would fix the cost issue. Reality is, labor is NOT refundable, anywhere.


well put.

and on another note you can still watch noggin with the kids.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

kentuck1163 said:


> I can't believe they called the pole installation a "custom" installation. DirecTV came and installed my system, brought a pole, concrete, dug the hole, installed the pole and dish, and FOUR TVs in my house (installation took 5-6 hours) and never charged me a CENT. I did give the guy a tip (I think I just gave him $20, and in retrospect it should have been more) because he did such an awesome job. I mean, he buried the wire from the pole to the house, did the wiring very neatly - a GREAT job. Maybe I was lucky.


That's pretty much what happened on my HD install, too. On my initial install, the installer even ran phone lines to four rooms, no additional charge. I had only been on this forum for a couple of months and did not know about the low pay, so I did not tip them at all. I feel bad about that now.

Service like this is the normal thing in my area. Jobs with no drug tests are hard to find around here.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

marly said:


> With Time Warner, yeah, their picture quality sucks, but I'm not locked into a contract with them. Their attitude is still just as bad with the, "Yeah, like we care".
> 
> marly


The "We Don't care attitude" is what pushed me away from TWC. In my nearly 11 years with DIREC*TV*, I never sensed that from them. The contract isn't something I fret about because I don't plan on going anywhere. If I ever do I'll address it then.

As IIP states, you can buy everything upfront from DIREC*TV* and be done with it, no commitment. Given the fact that I may want to upgrade at some point in time, I wouldn't want to be stuck with owned equipment.

There is no perfect provider, but DIREC*TV* fits me best, not TWC.


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## rnbmusicfan (Jul 19, 2005)

It's 72 hours to claim buyers remorse. Atleast in NJ.

I signed up with DirecTV less than 2 years ago, and signed up with their international channels (Hindi Direct I, Aastha) with Total Choice and a DVR. However, I missed Zee and decided to keep the Dish service, as Dish has totally different Hindi channels, and it was too expensive, and complicated, having DirecTV as well.

I think I just paid an installation fee or something, but there was no penalty fees.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

marly said:


> My wife says to the DirecTV CSR that we waited for 9hrs for the guy to show up and we were assured the person would arrive and he never did, we spoke to a Supervisor who we had to wait on hold for over an hour to speak to. When we were talking to her we told the story and her attitude was, "So like, what do you want me to do about it?"
> 
> I told her I didn't like her attitude and that I've been a customer for 10 years and I'll cancel that account for the rudeness. She was like, "yeah, like, no you don't". So I said, Ok, I'm canceling the new install and then I'm canceling the 10 year old account (here's the account number, btw it's subscribed to Premier).
> Long story short, DirecTV lost two accounts with the Premier Package; they're losing over $208/mo off of me, plus they lost an account with 10 years of service that *NEVER* had a late or missed payment.


I have also canceled transactions (not with D*, though) due to rude CSR's. When this happens, I always get the CSR's name and supervisor info and write a letter to the CEO to explain my actions. Maybe it does some good, maybe not, but if I were the CEO, I'd want to know why I was losing business so I could do something about it.


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## rnbmusicfan (Jul 19, 2005)

IIP said:


> <shrug> The contract is there because the sat providers are giving you big discounts on the leased receivers as well as paying for the installation.
> 
> There is an alternative: buy your receivers and dish outright (the receivers have to be bought directly from DirecTV). It will be expensive, and your monthly costs will be identical, but you won't have a commitment. Really, though, no one does this because is a losing proposition finanacially.
> 
> Satellite isn't for everyone.


DirecTV sells receivers, but only in a bundle of 2. I mean suppose one signs with DirecTV for a $30/mo programming (international or family package or something) using one leased receiver. DirecTV does indeed provide the free installation, and use of receiver, but so does cable and Fios for the most part. When cable or Fios wires a neighborhood, they are shelling out of pocket for something they may not directly see a return for a while.

But as a customer if in 6 months one's needs/budget changes, not much but...

To cancel service after 6 months (let's use 6 months as an example), the early termination fee would be ($20x12 = $240. Or if within 3 months, $300. To me that's steep. Perhaps there should be a choice where one can pay the fee for the installation, not get the promotional programming rates, but instead gets a shorter contract.

One has to ask, what was the cost of that actual installation, and equipment rental, shipping and return shipping of box and equipment (which DirecTV pays for), even imposed with interest? I remember installation going for less even a complicated 1-2 dish install long time ago. All these extras, like free HBO, Showtime, Starz for 3 months, and promotional reduced programming rate for a year don't quite "value up" locking into a commitment for a long period but that's just my opinion on value. I know Verizon has 1 year commitments for FIOS TV, but they seem to offer MUCH more for the bundled service. I wasn't too pleased once the standard commitment for basic satellite exceeded 12 months and went the way of Verizon's cell phone service model - where with cell phone contracts and using services, it's entirely different as you can easily get old equipment, try out and use various equipment, activate and go, and not necessarily lock in for a long contract.


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## Incog-Neato (Apr 21, 2006)

The 72hrs you are referring to is the "federal cooling off period" meant for mortgage and home improvement contracts signed in your home. DTV is 24hrs in NJ. The "federal 72hrs" allows you to cancel a morgage or a home contract BEFORE it begins. With DTV we are referring to a serivce that has already been activated. DirecTV used to be a lot longer but was changed to 24hrs a while back.


rnbmusicfan said:


> It's 72 hours to claim buyers remorse. Atleast in NJ.
> 
> I signed up with DirecTV less than 2 years ago, and signed up with their international channels (Hindi Direct I, Aastha) with Total Choice and a DVR. However, I missed Zee and decided to keep the Dish service, as Dish has totally different Hindi channels, and it was too expensive, and complicated, having DirecTV as well.
> 
> I think I just paid an installation fee or something, but there was no penalty fees.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Confuscious say...one bad apple in tree not reason to use axe and cut it down...


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## IcedOmega13 (Mar 3, 2008)

ohio state law is 15 days.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> I'm in the suburbs, not the city itself.


From where I sit down here, there is no nicer side of Detroit. I've been there. :lol: Which side of hell is the coolest, or actually right now the warmest.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

Rob052067 said:


> Double check your HD setup on the 722 to make sure it's set for 720p or 1080i. The guy who installed mine originally left it set to 480p and I didn't even realize it at first. Just thought Dish HD was inferior to cable until I figured out that the HD setting just needed to be changed. If both of your boxes are set to the same setting (and connected in the same manner (ie: HDMI)), it should be nearly impossible to tell any difference.


The difference is very obvious on a high end calibrated display. At least to my eyes. Both component and HDMI are considerably better on Directv on my 50" Pioneer plasma and 56" JVC HDILA.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

armophob said:


> From where I sit down here, there is no nicer side of Detroit. I've been there. :lol: Which side of hell is the coolest, or actually right now the warmest.


Aside from the downtown area, Detroit is all crap. But like I said, I'm not in Detroit.


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## Piratefan98 (Mar 11, 2008)

Jeremy W said:


> Aside from the downtown area, Detroit is all crap. But like I said, I'm not in Detroit.


The actual downtown has improved. I've only been there twice .... once recently, and once about 20 years ago. Seemed much nicer this time around.

However, drive 1/2 mile in nearly any direction from the immediate downtown, and it's a safe bet that you don't want to be there.

Jeff


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

peano said:


> The difference is very obvious on a high end calibrated display. At least to my eyes. Both component and HDMI are considerably better on Directv on my 50" Pioneer plasma and 56" JVC HDILA.


Was that a recent comparison, or has it been awhile? About a month ago, Dish upgraded more of their channels to MPEG4, which resulted in improvements in PQ.

http://www.multichannel.com/blog/350000435/post/560037456.html


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Rob052067 said:


> About a month ago, Dish upgraded more of their channels to MPEG4, which resulted in improvements in PQ.


They still down rez their 1080i channels, and send all of them out at lower bitrates than DirecTV.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

Rob052067 said:


> Was that a recent comparison, or has it been awhile? About a month ago, Dish upgraded more of their channels to MPEG4, which resulted in improvements in PQ.
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/blog/350000435/post/560037456.html


I last checked a week ago.


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## rnbmusicfan (Jul 19, 2005)

Incog-Neato said:


> The 72hrs you are referring to is the "federal cooling off period" meant for mortgage and home improvement contracts signed in your home. DTV is 24hrs in NJ. The "federal 72hrs" allows you to cancel a morgage or a home contract BEFORE it begins. With DTV we are referring to a serivce that has already been activated. DirecTV used to be a lot longer but was changed to 24hrs a while back.


? I signed up and then cancelled in Jun '07, and did after 24 hours, but before 72. I was told 72 by the DirecTV CSRs, and decided it wasn't for me at the time, after the second day. Maybe the time frame has changed. I didn't pay a termination fee, DirecTV sent empty boxes with prepaid labels, however the installation and labor I believe I paid. In fact, my SSN# still pulls up an account, even though I closed the account, and if I were to re-activative, I have to go through the Customer Retention Group dept. Basically, they offer the same thing but I can't re-order online.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

This whole D* experience has been a nightmare all around! The chances of me ever reconsidering D* again in the future are slim to none.

I already discussed the installation delays above. But now, after canceling, I get to deal with charges to my credit card. On the day I canceled, D* erroneously charged my card for the 1st month of service at $67 (although, technically, my 1st monthly bill was to be $40). Then, yesterday, D* erroneously charged my card another $411 in early termination fees. I called D* again to get these charges resolved. D* confirmed that both charges were mistakes and credits will be issued back to my card - BUT, it may take 6-8 weeks for the credits to appear! WTF!?!?! The phone reps have all been courteous and helpful, but this has certainly not the most pleasant experience.

I did receive the shipping box on Saturday to return the receiver. I dropped it off at FedEx this morning on the way in to work. Hopefully, there won't be any issues with that next.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

That's indeed annoying. You can call your credit card company and dispute the charges which will be quicker than 6-8 weeks.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

I agree with Tcusta's recommendation to call your credit card company and dispute the charges. If you don't dispute the charges with your credit card company, and DirecTV does not follow through on issuing the credit, then you might lose the leverage you have through your credit card.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Piratefan98 said:


> The actual downtown has improved. I've only been there twice .... once recently, and once about 20 years ago. Seemed much nicer this time around.
> 
> However, drive 1/2 mile in nearly any direction from the immediate downtown, and it's a safe bet that you don't want to be there.
> 
> Jeff


True. But most of the outter burbs are very nice and have huge mansions and so forth. I'm sure that's where he lives. But if you say you're from Troy or Livonia nobody knows where that is but you say the Detroit area and everyone knows.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

RACJ2 said:


> You can call your credit card company and tell them you want to dispute the charges. Then you won't have to pay those charges and by the time they finish researching, you should get your credit.


Take Racj2's advice and Call today, DO NOT WAIT, Call your CC right NOW.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> True. But most of the outter burbs are very nice and have huge mansions and so forth. I'm sure that's where he lives. But if you say you're from Troy or Livonia nobody knows where that is but you say the Detroit area and everyone knows.


Exactly. When I tell people in other states that I'm from Detroit, I get a look like "how many times have you been shot?" But if I just say what city I'm actually from, nobody knows what I'm talking about.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

I'll give D* a little time to get the credits posted back to my card before I call Chase to dispute the charges. If the charges are still there after my next card statement is generated, then I'll call and give Chase a heads up.

I also forgot to mention that this fiasco also resulted in the loss of my home phone service last weekend. When I ordered D*, I also ordered phone and DSL from AT&T at the same time (since I would be losing the bundle discount from TWC). I placed the order online at ATT.com. When I canceled D*(1/5/09), I also called AT&T to cancel the switch from TWC (unable to cancel online). A couple days later, when I got home from work I found a voicemail from AT&T advising that my appointment for installation was set for this Monday (1/12/09). 

So, I called AT&T again on 1/8/09 to confirm the cancellation of my order. It had not been canceled. The 2nd phone rep I talked to indicated that the 1st phone rep would not have had immediate system access to cancel an online order, and probably had written themselves a note to call the online schedulers to get it canceled (or some mumbo jumbo like that). Anyway, the 2nd rep called over to the online dept and confirmed she got the order canceled. 

On Saturday 01/10/09, my phone service was turned off by TWC. I didn't realize it until Sunday when I had no dial tone. I found a few messages on my cell phone indicating friends & family had tried to call me on Saturday but got a message that my phone was disconnected. 

So I called TWC on Sunday, and they indicated that AT&T had taken my number so they could switch over my service. I told them I had canceled the order with AT&T. They opened a work order to get the number back from AT&T, but would be unable to do so until Monday. On Monday, TWC called me (on my cell) and advised that AT&T had my number and would not release it back to TWC because I had a pending order for installation! 

So I called AT&T, and after long explanation and longer hold times, the rep told me that my order was canceled on 1/8 and there's no way AT&T took my number away from TWC. I explained that I had never advised TWC that I was canceling or switching any services away from TWC, so the only way AT&T got my number was if they had initiated the switch. They again said my order was canceled and they did not have my number.

So I called TWC again. This time, after bouncing from around a few different call centers, they were able to find that my number was no longer held by AT&T and they got my phone service restored within a few minutes, while I was still on hold.

Just a warning to anyone who orders a switch in home phone service providers. If you cancel the order, be sure to advise your current provider not to release your number to anyone without your express permission. There are 'anti-slamming' laws that can ensure that your service is never switched without your pre-approval, even if you place an order with another provider.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Rob052067 said:


> Just a warning to anyone who orders a switch in home phone service providers. If you cancel the order, be sure to advise your current provider not to release your number to anyone without your express permission. There are 'anti-slamming' laws that can ensure that your service is never switched without your pre-approval, even if you place an order with another provider.


My advice would be to not cancel the original service until the new service is in place and verified working. This may mean that you have to get a temporary number and deal with porting your permanent number later, but it's the safest thing to do. In fact, Charter Cable (one of our options for local phone service) recommends this during the order process.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

rudeney said:


> My advice would be to not cancel the original service until the new service is in place and verified working. This may mean that you have to get a temporary number and deal with porting your permanent number later, but it's the safest thing to do. In fact, Charter Cable (one of our options for local phone service) recommends this during the order process.


*I did not cancel any of my TWC services at any time.* I had not contacted TWC at all about my orders with DirecTV and AT&T. I didn't plan to contact TWC about canceling until after the new services were up and running.

Essentially, the part of AT&T that handles installation proceeded with obtaining my phone number from TWC - several days after I had already talked to two phone reps at AT&T about canceling the pending order.

You don't have to authorize your current provider to give your number to a new provider. The new provider can just take it. Unless you set up an 'anti-slamming' order on your account.

The 'anti-slamming' laws were put in place after a huge numbers of customers were finding their phone service switched even without ever 'ordering' new service from another provider. There were all sorts of 'scams' out there were people would enter contests, or receive and cash a 'rebate' check, etc, and there would be some small print somewhere indicating that by entering such and such contest, or cashing the check, you were 'authorizing' a change in service providers. Other times, people would be cold-called by say MCI, Sprint, or AT&T, and even though they'd say 'no thanks', the marketer would go ahead and order a service switch just to inflate their sales numbers.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

tcusta00 said:


> That's indeed annoying. You can call your credit card company and dispute the charges which will be quicker than 6-8 weeks.


I shoulda done that. I really didn't think that Direct would take this long to refund the charges, but they still have not done so. I talked to a CSR about 10 days ago and he said he'd request rush processing, but still nothing.


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## Rob052067 (Nov 20, 2008)

OK, I finally got most of my money back. My CC rec'd a credit for $422 today. There's just $67 more to go. I'll probably have to call again, but I'll give them a few more days...


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## GenTso (Aug 26, 2008)

kentuck1163 said:


> I can't believe they called the pole installation a "custom" installation. DirecTV came and installed my system, brought a pole, concrete, dug the hole, installed the pole and dish, and FOUR TVs in my house (installation took 5-6 hours) and never charged me a CENT. I did give the guy a tip (I think I just gave him $20, and in retrospect it should have been more) because he did such an awesome job. I mean, he buried the wire from the pole to the house, did the wiring very neatly - a GREAT job. Maybe I was lucky.


I had a similar experience, only the guy spent a DAY AND A HALF with his supervisor calling him every hour to check on his progress and see when he was making his next appointment. The installer REFUSED to do a lousy job when he could have gotten away with it, and even fished wires down three walls at no cost. He had my help whenever he needed it, and the harassment he received from his supervisor while working on the install (basically wasting 10 minutes in the middle of whatever he was doing) only made him more determined that he wasn't going to sacrifice his own perception of "a job well done" just to please his supervisor, who was only concerned with moving on to the next install. Isn't this where we normally hear horror stories from cable customers?

Anyway, even though the guy had to leave at 4 p.m. in the middle of my install (I had to go to work and he was going to try to get in another install) and I had to go a night without service, it was still no problem. He came back at 7 a.m. the next morning, finished the job, checked and rechecked to make sure everything was working. He wound up being there until 11 a.m. I'm a young guy and this installer was Vietnam vet who had only been working with D* for a few months (I already forgot what field he was in before, though I believe it was in the contracting business). I assume he wasn't a subcontractor since he was in a D* van, and the only subcontractor I've ever noticed in the area has his own fleet of trucks.

Mind you this was a FREE install. Maybe I just got him at the right time; maybe I was just somebody he liked (I usually follow the install guys around asking questions or seeing if they need help; I also let them know they can ask me to leave and I won't be offended). I talked to the guy for a while when he was wrapping things up and he pretty much let me know how he felt about everything from work to politics to being a veteran, and it all tied nicely with him refusing to compromise his own ethics for that of others. The installer's supervisor was so mad he'd taken so long on the install (likewise, the installer was pretty mad at the supervisor) that he was almost positive he was going to be fired. I'm a journalist, and the skeptic in me briefly thought that I might be getting conned a little for a good tip, but I quickly realized that wasn't the case due to the constant calls from the supervisor and reading on this Web site about what D* really considers a "free" install.

Of course I told him that firing him would be the dumbest thing D* could possibly do. The smartest thing would be to have this guy as the "cleanup" man .... somebody who goes in and fixes the mess others make and gives the customer the sense he's doing a good job and they're getting a good value (thereby offsetting some of the trust that might have been compromised by the original shoddy work). People like this are rare and (I think) among the most valuable in a company, especially when they're the ones face to face with the customer on a daily basis. Needless to say I gave him a $100 tip since he'd done everything I'd asked (some of which would be considered "custom") and more. He even convinced my landlord he wasn't going to mess up the roof by drilling holes so the dish was out of sight from the front of the building -- as required in the lease -- and had the best line of sight to the south (all other residents have the eave-mounted dish on the sides of the roof, not on the roof itself).

As the quoted poster says above, there are good and bad installers. I also felt lucky after reading some of the stories on this board, and though I would have been outraged if he said it was going to cost $100 to fish the lines down three walls up front, I had no problem coming up with that figure on my own recognizance. I think he even refused saying he couldn't accept tips or something (he did ... but after he realized I was just going to stick it in his clipboard, he said he couldn't take it until after activation). Coming off of Comcast and into D* with an experience like that has really softened me on the few issues I've had with D*.

If a company can surpass customer expectations from the outset, they'll be more receptive to complications in the future. Why aren't there many companies that realize this? Instead you have supervisors harassing good employees to move faster and move on to the next job and potentially turning good employees into bad employees in the pursuit of the almighty dollar. I know the supervisor is probably graded on his performance by the number of installations done by his installers, but there should be some neutral ground between the number of jobs done and the number of jobs done well.

It's still hard for me to believe. If anyone knows how to get in touch with D* to let them know the have (or had) a quality guy who would be great in the "fixer" role described above, let me know. I don't think the suits would like to hear about an employee getting harassed for going above and beyond the call of duty so much that a customer took an hour out of his time to write about it.


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## kwajr (Apr 7, 2004)

it did not for me about 5 years ago i had a tech evryday for a week before telling them tit was just not going to work i mean it would as long as the wind didnt blow but they charged me and i was not able to get out of it maybe with a lawyer i could.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

GenTso said:


> I had a similar experience, only the guy spent a DAY AND A HALF with his supervisor calling him every hour to check on his progress and see when he was making his next appointment. The installer REFUSED to do a lousy job when he could have gotten away with it, and even fished wires down three walls at no cost.


I'm glad you had a positive experience, but I can almost guarentee that this guy no longer works for DirecTV. In the first place, DirecTV's pay is far too low to spend that much time on a job. In the second place, you should have been charged for the wall fishes and possibly some other stuff. Your installer essentially screwed himself and did the work for free (as well as made it harder for other installers to collect their custom fees). Third, he'll either be fired or simply not routed if he blows off other calls like he did.

Yes, the installation part of the business is very broken. The system is designed to screw over good techs, and assures that the only people who stick around for very long are either techs to take short-cuts or techs who simply can't get a job anywhere else and put up with it.

DirecTV claims to want "professional" installs, but will install a tech with 5-6 installs in a day, when at BEST, he might be able to do 3 small or 2 large installs. They advertize "free install" and then try to force installers to do work far above what their contract specifies for free. Then they want to charge back installers for any issue, even if it's a hardware issue or customer-caused, or for things like receivers not connected to a live phone line. With 30% of homes not having a land line, there's usually little the tech could do.

Techs have been quitting in droves, and many areas are pushing installs out beyond 4 weeks...


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## GenTso (Aug 26, 2008)

IIP said:


> I'm glad you had a positive experience, but I can almost guarentee that this guy no longer works for DirecTV. In the first place, DirecTV's pay is far too low to spend that much time on a job. In the second place, you should have been charged for the wall fishes and possibly some other stuff. Your installer essentially screwed himself and did the work for free (as well as made it harder for other installers to collect their custom fees). Third, he'll either be fired or simply not routed if he blows off other calls like he did.


Like I say, though, this is the type of installer that would make an excellent "fixer." If you have guys coming in with a number of installs doing quick and messy jobs, there have to be lots of customer complaints. There also has to be plenty of times D* has to come out and finish the job or clean up a mess someone else made. I was expecting to have line runs on the exterior of my house like all my friends (Oh, and you should hear their wives complain ... get two sets who don't like the exterior runs together and D* has a year's worth of negative publicity dished out to whoever the wives are complaining to).

Seems like an off business practice to reward bad service and run off those who do a good job. There has to be some neutral area between. Wouldn't a supervisor also be graded on the number of complaints he receives about his installers? He wasn't blowing off calls either. He was finishing a job. There might be an alloted time for each one, but you can't enter each job expecting them to be finished within a certain amount of time no matter what. The supervisor also wasted 10-15 minutes when he called every hour. Not only was he harassing the guy, he was distracting him from what he was doing at the time. I'm not exaggerating, either. All told, that's two hours over the course of an eight-hour install. See where I'm coming from?

I would think D* would have to keep this in mind. I know I got lucky with my install and I'm thankful for it, but my one good experience isn't going to cancel out all those with bad experiences who are preventing others with cable from switching. Some of that goodwill has been lost with me as I always begin that story with the caveat, "I know I got lucky, but ..."

Look, I work in a deadline oriented field -- print media -- so I know what you mean. But that doesn't mean we sacrifice quality, consistency or accuracy for speed. All must be done in balance. We're also not going to send someone out to cover a baseball game (which we know is a double-header) and expect them to cover another game that may or may not have ended before the others are over. That's not really a great example, but if you have an installer going out with two to three different appointments a day and you know that one is going to have three lines run from the dish, another just one and the last four, doesn't it make sense to cut out one of those appointments ... just from a dispatching perspective?

D* better make sure it doesn't tick too many people off along the way. I work in a dying industry with an outdated business model. When people are angry with the service you've provided or there's the perception they're no longer receiving anything of value, they'll jump ship at the first opportunity ... with FIOS up and coming, D* better watch out.


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