# need OTA, DirecTV trying to force me to take HR21



## tonyquan (Jan 8, 2004)

requested an upgrade, customer service told me I'd be getting an HR20, which I wanted for OTA. 

installer shows up, only has an HR21, no HR20s in his last shipment. I go ahead and let him install it, thinking I could get DirecTV to swap me for an HR20.

technical support refuses to do a swap, saying if i specifically want an HR20 i have to go to a brick and mortar store and buy one. further, they say the HR21 will eventually get OTA through software upgrade, which we know is impossible.

Now fuming, on hold waiting for a supervisor. May need to threaten to cancel DirecTV completely unless they do the swap.


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

tonyquan said:


> requested an upgrade, customer service told me I'd be getting an HR20, which I wanted for OTA.
> 
> installer shows up, only has an HR21, no HR20s in his last shipment. I go ahead and let him install it, thinking I could get DirecTV to swap me for an HR20.
> 
> ...


They should want to satisfy the customer and do what you ask.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

and so it begins.... hopefully these circumstances will be rare. Try if you can to keep the "fuming" to a minimum when they come on the line.


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## tonyquan (Jan 8, 2004)

Canis Lupus said:


> and so it begins.... hopefully these circumstances will be rare. Try if you can to keep the "fuming" to a minimum when they come on the line.


got dropped while on hold for supervisor, called again, got the same answer from the first line person. on hold *again* for supervisor.

trying hard not to get mad but this is ridiculous.


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## raoul5788 (May 14, 2006)

tonyquan said:


> got dropped while on hold for supervisor, called again, got the same answer from the first line person. on hold *again* for supervisor.
> 
> trying hard not to get mad but this is ridiculous.


Try calling back and say "cancel" at the prompt. That will get you to retention. They are better equipped to handle your problem.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

I just knew stuff like this was going to happen despite all the people here assuring us that all D* was doing was giving us "another choice".

Choices are great. Now D* needs to learn that it's good business to routinely let their paying customers specify their choice instead of forcing them to take something that they don't want just because D* didn't want to make the small extra effort it would take to do things right.


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## John in Georgia (Sep 24, 2006)

I tried to buy (lease) an HR20 from D* for self-install, yesterday. They said "No can do. Visit Best Buy."

I did.


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

Hmmm...sounds like if I want that 2nd HR20 I better go hunting as our local BB only has HR21s.


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## John in Georgia (Sep 24, 2006)

Jaysv said:


> Hmmm...sounds like if I want that 2nd HR20 I better go hunting as our local BB only has HR21s.


Yeah, I had to go through 5 or 6 stores in metro Atlanta to find a single one.


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## scrappy 2000 (Dec 7, 2006)

The no ota would be a beal breaker for me. If my hr 20-700 would need to be replaced and D* said I had to take a hr 21 I sure would not be happy. The csr telling you that there would be a software upgrade was a real insult to you. All we can do is hope against hope that D* will understand how bad a decission it was to save maybe five bucks on the hr21 by not includeing a ota.


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## m0ondoggy (Sep 11, 2007)

I recall seeing an OTA input on the SWM in the SWM review. Is it possible that the SWM will switch the OTA input outside for you and that's why the box doesn't need it?


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## lman (Dec 21, 2006)

First they take away DLB, now they take away OTA. My bill keeps going up.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

m0ondoggy said:


> I recall seeing an OTA input on the SWM in the SWM review. Is it possible that the SWM will switch the OTA input outside for you and that's why the box doesn't need it?


No, the SWM8 has an OTA input to diplexe the OTA into the SAT line but you still have to diplexe out before you connect it to the HR20.

The SWM 5 you have to diplexe in and diplexe out before you get to the HR20 because it does not have an OTA input.


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

BMoreRavens said:


> No, the SWM8 has an OTA input to diplexe the OTA into the SAT line but you still have to diplexe out before you connect it to the HR20.
> 
> The SWM 5 you have to diplexe in and diplexe out before you get to the HR20 because it does not have an OTA input.


Anyone else see the irony(or is it stupidity?) in this....

New product - SWM's designed to make integrating OTA easier
New product - Receivers with no OTA inputs

 :nono2:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Racer88 said:


> Anyone else see the irony(or is it stupidity?) in this....
> 
> New product - SWM's designed to make integrating OTA easier
> New product - Receivers with no OTA inputs
> ...


SWM wasn't designed to allow OTA on the cable... SWM just doesn't use the DIPLEXED frequency range, so there is nothing being done to interfer with it.

SWM 5CH (which will be the most common installed one)... doesn't have a built in OTA diplex.

SWM 8CH (which will be the most common in MDU installes)... was included with a diplexor, so that the units in the MDU can still get an ARIAL antenna if they don't want to subscribe to DirecTV


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Also, being able to diplex an OTA signal in, then diplex it out at the tv location, allows you to connect the OTA signal to your TV set.

Carl


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

I take back all my comments that the HR21 was a good thing.

If it was that you could get an HR21 for free, and it was $100 more to get an HR20 from DTV, that'd be one thing. But now you can get an HR21 for free and it's $299 to get an HR20 (and you end up with an HR21 you can't use).

D* did indeed bone us OTA people. I feel really stupid for supporting them on here now.


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## michaelyork29 (Jun 22, 2007)

tonyquan said:


> they say the HR21 will eventually get OTA through software upgrade


Hahahahah! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can't stop laughing!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

How long has the HR21-700 been out again?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Where do you live?

Someone with an HR20 might swap with you.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

flipptyfloppity said:


> D* did indeed bone us OTA people. I feel really stupid for supporting them on here now.


So you really think they were just out to screw with the people that want/need OTA?

Really... if they wanted to do that... they could have never enabled the OTA on the HR20 series.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Where do you live?
> 
> Someone with an HR20 might swap with you.


+1 ... if you were in my area... i would trade you... i have 2 hr20-700's and only use OTA on one of them.... and wouldn't mind having the black hr21...


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So you really think they were just out to screw with the people that want/need OTA?
> 
> Really... if they wanted to do that... they could have never enabled the OTA on the HR20 series.


No, but Intent is not necessary to do darn good job of it.


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## tonyquan (Jan 8, 2004)

raoul5788 said:


> Try calling back and say "cancel" at the prompt. That will get you to retention. They are better equipped to handle your problem.


back (no, haven't actually been on hold this long)

Retention was able to do better. Got a good person there, knew what I was asking for and why, and that it was better for DirecTV to try to meet a customer's need rather than ignore it.

They agreed to cut a deal...if I could find an HR20 locally, they'd give me a year of HD Access for free on activation of the HR20, and would send me a shipping kit to return the HR21. Once they got the HR21 back, they'd credit me the $99 plus $19 shipping I paid for the HR21. So in the end I'm paying $50 for an HR20. I knew I wasn't going to get any better than that so I took it.

Now, finding an HR20. Tried the local Costco, all HR21s. Local Best Buy had one HR21, and one HR20 left. Cardboard box a bit cut up but I took it.

Now, I'm OK but I have to say I was lucky, both to find a sympathetic DirecTV employee and to find the HR20 locally.

Warning to anyone in the San Francisco Bay Area: our local installer (Ironwood) isn't getting HR20's anymore. Good luck finding one if you need one.

Best thing I heard in the whole ordeal: the retention rep saying "it doesn't make sense, shouldn't newer hardware have more features, not cut features?"


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## jkast (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm sure glad I got my HR20s two months ago. My bet is that unless we get fairly vocal on here or the government gets involved, it will be the last DirecTV HD DVR with OTA.... and the consumer will lose again.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

m0ondoggy said:


> I recall seeing an OTA input on the SWM in the SWM review. Is it possible that the SWM will switch the OTA input outside for you and that's why the box doesn't need it?


NO. Broadcast is sent in a format called 8VSB. The chip set in the HR21 is incapable of demodulating 8VSB. It is purely a satellite receiver.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Amazing that DirecTV could actually make people nostalgic for the HR20. I guess the HR22 will only have one tuner if we complain about the HR21's lack of OTA too much.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So you really think they were just out to screw with the people that want/need OTA?
> 
> Really... if they wanted to do that... they could have never enabled the OTA on the HR20 series.


So, you're saying they did this by accident?

No, just kidding (mostly). I imagine they did it because it was cheaper. Sure they knew that there would be plenty of folks wanting OTA, but decided OTA was more trouble that it was worth. To them. Instead of, oh, their customers.

Are they really phasing out the HR20?


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> SWM wasn't designed to allow OTA on the cable... SWM just doesn't use the DIPLEXED frequency range, so there is nothing being done to interfer with it.
> 
> SWM 5CH (which will be the most common installed one)... doesn't have a built in OTA diplex.
> 
> SWM 8CH (which will be the most common in MDU installes)... was included with a diplexor, so that the units in the MDU can still get an ARIAL antenna if they don't want to subscribe to DirecTV


Then, why were some people here touting SWM as the cure to the diplexing problem? Were you guys just trying to get us to give up OTA before you took it away from us?

Consider just how badly run a company has to be when one of your FIRST CUSTOMERS, who has been a CONTINUOUS CUSTOMER FOR 13 YEARS, is actively looking for a way to drop you guys, just like I did the cable company in 1994.

As I've said before, everything that Murdoch touched at D* was a disaster. From DVRs down to SD quality, it was a tour de crap. Not sure it can be fixed, but this HR21 things is yet another step in the wrong direction.

Firing 20 top managers would be a good start towards a fix.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> How long has the HR21-700 been out again?


Long enough for the first patch. Or are you suggesting that it WILL get an 8VSB tuner via a software fix? Good luck with that.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So you really think they were just out to screw with the people that want/need OTA?
> 
> Really... if they wanted to do that... they could have never enabled the OTA on the HR20 series.


I can't actually believe you wrote that. The HR20 came out months before DTV had functioning HD locals in most markets. They would have shot themselves in the foot to have taken away OTA at that time.

So I think your flip (but fun) comment equating the current situation to the situation of when the HR20 came out isn't quite accurate. Turning off OTA right now affects a lot fewer customers than it did when doing so would have locked nearly everyone out of HD locals.

Honestly, I can't figure out what the heck D* is doing here. I completely understand why they want to stop giving away HR20s. It'll save them a ton of money and thus help them compete with cable, who send out boxes for free. I also understand why the HR20 would be sold in stores, because stores probably sell few enough DTV boxes already, they won't want to carry two SKUs. So since the HR20 can do everything the HR21 can (that I can tell), it's the one to carry.

But what I can't understand is raising the minimum entry fee for getting HD OTA locals (or HD locals at all in markets that are waiting for D11 before getting HD locals) to $299 plus sticking new customers of this sort with an extra HR21 they have no use for at all.

DTV should offer to send HR20s with installers for a nominal fee, perhaps $100 or $150 tops.

The way they are doing it now makes them look incompetent, callous or actually (tinfoil mode on) trying to stamp out OTA. I know this sounds really oddball, but so is D*s policies in this situation, so what am I to think?


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## jhillestad (Jan 13, 2007)

tonyquan said:


> requested an upgrade, customer service told me I'd be getting an HR20, which I wanted for OTA.
> 
> installer shows up, only has an HR21, no HR20s in his last shipment. I go ahead and let him install it, thinking I could get DirecTV to swap me for an HR20.
> 
> ...


According to all the dtv schills that troll this forum the OTA is " no big deal "

I voiced my complaints and was quickly told by the schills how wrong I am and how the ota tuner just is not needed... go figure.... I am starting to wonder if this website is secretly run by dtv....


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

lman said:


> First they take away DLB, now they take away OTA. My bill keeps going up.


I know that right....



tonyquan said:


> Best thing I heard in the whole ordeal: the retention rep saying "it doesn't make sense, shouldn't newer hardware have more features, not cut features?"


You would think so. I have no idea what D* is doing but, it doesn't look good.

I was glad I have OTA or my wife would of killed me. I live in 63376 area and when "Dancing with Stars" came on after a few minutes the feed from D* went out on ABC. Wife called me talking so fast I had to ask her what the hell she was talking about. Told her to try it in the living room on OTA and it worked. I always watch OTA a heck of better picture then D* SD, even when it's not an HD program.


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## west5648 (Oct 13, 2007)

Is it me, or anyone on these forums that say not having ota on the HR21 is no big deal is already getting locals through d*? Yea I could still watch them through my t.v's tuner, but that defeats the purpose of having a dvr to record what you want to watch. I mean how many d* receivers didnt come with ota lately? And if I have to wait till they launch another sat to get my locals through d*, who knows how long that will be.


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## nhlfan79 (Aug 31, 2006)

All I know is that D*'s NBC feed here in Atlanta continues to be a green pixellated mess. Until they get that cleaned up, OTA is essential.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

jhillestad said:


> According to all the dtv schills that troll this forum the OTA is " no big deal "
> 
> I voiced my complaints and was quickly told by the schills how wrong I am and how the ota tuner just is not needed... go figure.... I am starting to wonder if this website is secretly run by dtv....


I have an HR20-xxx scheduled for install on Nov 6th. I called the installer and told them I would NOT accept an HR21, that I needed OTA for this particular location in the house. They confirmed with the actual installer that I would be getting an HR20-xxx, and not an HR21.

We'll see. My blood pressure is already increasing, and I find myself actually getting angry at D* for the first time since I came here. (based on this thread)

Just how stupid can they be, arbitrarily replacing unit X with unit Y, when unit Y's functionality is *absolutely different* from unit X? Before this post, I had given D* credit for not doing something this dumb.

I really hope this was a "mistake", but from the reported conversation I'm not sure.

If I took a day off work to get the install done, and they show up with an HR21, I'm going to be righteously pissed!


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

hasan said:


> I have an HR20-xxx scheduled for install on Nov 6th. I called the installer and told them I would NOT accept an HR21, that I needed OTA for this particular location in the house. They confirmed with the actual installer that I would be getting an HR20-xxx, and not an HR21.
> 
> We'll see. My blood pressure is already increasing, and I find myself actually getting angry at D* for the first time since I came here. (based on this thread)
> 
> ...


DirecTV installers should provide what the customer wants, whether that be the HR20 or HR21, they should carry both on the trucks and have backup plan in case of equipment failure.


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## Guindalf (Nov 19, 2005)

Unfortunately, everyone is mostly right!!

For a large proportion of the population, the HR21 is fine as they can't receive OTA anyway. I'm in this group. I live too far from a major city to be able to get anything OTA, so I have to get my locals via D*.

However, there is a significant number of people who can get more/different/better channels over the air and MUST have an HR20 to be satisfied.

The answer? Simple - offer the choice! I would be happy to take an HR21 (or even swap one or both of my HR20s) as the OTA is wasted here. If I was in an area where I could get the channels unpixelated, then I would insist on an HR20.

(actually, I would much rather have a TiVo based MPEG4 DVR, but that's a whole other thread!)


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## cariera (Oct 27, 2006)

But the HR-21 is BLACK. It looks cool, that's why it doesn't have OTA.  

Seriously folks, D* reps have never been able to guarantee the make or model of receiver that you would get on an install. NEVER. So don't believe what that CSR tells you.

There are two options:

1. If installer shows up with a 21 and doesn't have a 20, reschedule (and reschedule, and reschedule...) until you get what you want.

2. Buy your HDDVR at a B&M, call D*. The installation is free.

Anyone who reads this forum, knows and has known that the HR21 does not have OTA. Why it was done, well only D* knows for sure. If you want a 20, get it, but remember the HR-21 is BLACK and it looks cool.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

jtn said:


> DirecTV installers should provide what the customer wants, whether that be the HR20 or HR21, they should carry both on the trucks and have backup plan in case of equipment failure.


....and even if I should be so fortunate as to have them show up with an HR20-xxx, what about the rest of the people who need/want OTA? What about the bait and switch they are pulling? Consumers have a right to make an *informed decision*. They cannot do that if the selling party changes the functionality of the equipment they order *without notice*

If what has been reported is accurate, it is completely unacceptable and unethical behavior on the part of D*, and a lot of built up good will is going right down the toilet.

This could have been prevented very easily, if, when the order was placed, the CSR's had been instructed to ask, "Do you want or need OTA functionality in your HD-DVR?" Then either the right receiver would be provided, the consumer told they had to wait, or the consumer told "tough luck" we're not doing OTA any more.

Many of us wrote in defense of D* recently that there was no indication from them that they were dropping support for OTA. We assumed the best of D*, viewing the H21 as a non-OTA alternative. Well, it ain't an alternative if we are forced to accept an HR21 when we want an HR20. That is just dumb as a box of rocks.

To tell you the truth, *IF* this recounting of the situation is accurate, I feel outright <fill in the blank, I can't find the right words to express my sentiments at the moment> by D*.

It is inexcusable that a significant feature like OTA would be missing from an ordered product, *without any notice* to the person paying for the product. This is the kind of stuff that State Attorney General staff love.


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## cmoss5 (May 26, 2006)

nhlfan79 said:


> All I know is that D*'s NBC feed here in Atlanta continues to be a green pixellated mess. Until they get that cleaned up, OTA is essential.


I HAVE 3 HD RECEIVERS...1 HR20, 1 HR20-700, 1 HR20-100 AND HAVE NO PROBLEMS IN ATLANTA WITH NBC FEED FROM DIRECTV....HAVE THEM COME OUT AND CHECK YOUR SIGNAL STRENGTHS ON YOUR FEEDS TO YOUR DISH...ALSO, DO YOU HAVE THE 
5LNB DISH...IS A MUST TO GET SIGNAL PROPERLY...


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

hasan said:


> ....and even if I should be so fortunate as to have them show up with an HR20-xxx, what about the rest of the people who need/want OTA? What about the bait and switch they are pulling? Consumers have a right to make an *informed decision*. They cannot do that if the selling party changes the functionality of the equipment they order *without notice*
> 
> If what has been reported is accurate, it is completely unacceptable and unethical behavior on the part of D*, and a lot of built up good will is going right down the toilet.
> 
> ...


I agree with all you have to say, sometimes I wonder if it's the individual contractor (as most installers are with independent companies contracted to install) not following DirecTV's protocols or maybe the contractors are. It's awful if they are playing games and to be disingenuous or outright lie to customers. Thanks for your information it's helpful.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

hasan said:


> ....and even if I should be so fortunate as to have them show up with an HR20-xxx, what about the rest of the people who need/want OTA? What about the bait and switch they are pulling? Consumers have a right to make an *informed decision*. They cannot do that if the selling party changes the functionality of the equipment they order *without notice*
> 
> If what has been reported is accurate, it is completely unacceptable and unethical behavior on the part of D*, and a lot of built up good will is going right down the toilet.
> 
> ...


Great post.

Step 1 when you order a Plus HD DVR is D* should ask if you would like to watch and record off-air channels. IMO, if the answer is no, then they should sell you the HR21 for $20-$50 less. They can be creative too. If you don't need to record OTA, then we can offer 2-4 months free of HBO/Cinemax or some other premium.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

jkast said:


> I'm sure glad I got my HR20s two months ago. My bet is that unless we get fairly vocal on here or the government gets involved, it will be the last DirecTV HD DVR with OTA.... and the consumer will lose again.


Why would the government get involved? The H20 and HR20s are the only *active *receivers that can combine OTA in with the Sat channels in the guide. I use it and hope that it is there for a long time. If it went away, I can still see my OTA stuff on all my TVs by switching the input on my TV. Now don't get me wrong, I would be unhappy.

Please explain to me how and why the government would get involved. That is not what government is for. If you don't like what DTV is doing tell them and vote with your wallet.


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## randyk47 (Aug 21, 2006)

Oh well....I get an HD DVR (I hope) tomorrow morning. It'll be what it'll be. I do want OTA but will work around it by hooking the OTA input directly to the TV if I get an HR21. The only reason I want the OTA option is in case of bad weather where the satellite signal dies. Happens here in the extreme thunder and lightning storms we can get which can spawn tornadoes. The local stations do a good job with warnings and tracking. As it is I could also simply go downstairs and turn on the other set with the H20. It isn't the end of the world for us as there aren't enough OTA stations available in this area to make it an issue about missing out on content.


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## brianr4666 (Aug 19, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> Why would the government get involved? The H20 and HR20s are the only *active *receivers that can combine OTA in with the Sat channels in the guide. I use it and hope that it is there for a long time. If it went away, I can still see my OTA stuff on all my TVs by switching the input on my TV. Now don't get me wrong, I would be unhappy.
> 
> Please explain to me how and why the government would get involved. That is not what government is for. If you don't like what DTV is doing tell them and vote with your wallet.


Amen.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> Why would the government get involved? The H20 and HR20s are the only *active *receivers that can combine OTA in with the Sat channels in the guide. I use it and hope that it is there for a long time. If it went away, I can still see my OTA stuff on all my TVs by switching the input on my TV. Now don't get me wrong, I would be unhappy.
> 
> Please explain to me how and why the government would get involved. That is not what government is for. If you don't like what DTV is doing tell them and vote with your wallet.


General government involvement in something like the above is downright silly. Specific involvement in response to bait and switch, or changing an order without notice to the consumer is what the State Attorney General is for (and that is government, like it or not)

I make a clear distinction between a company's choice to offer or not offer a given feature in a piece of equipment, and a company changing an order without notice (sending an HR21 when an HR20 was ordered) In the first case, the government has no real role (unless you want to revert to the standards for color TV....without them there would be chaos), in the second case, fraud may be involved because the *functionality* of the two units is entirely different (OTA).


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

hasan said:


> .....Just how stupid can they be, arbitrarily replacing unit X with unit Y, when unit Y's functionality is *absolutely different* from unit X? Before this post, I had given D* credit for not doing something this dumb.


I think D* may have gotten a little ahead of themselves here. Their thinking may be that very shortly a great majority of their customers will be served by HD LiL's, therefore obviating the need for OTA capability for those customers. I know, I know: what about PBS, the sub-channels, etc.? Another minority from their point of view, and some kind of PBS deal _will_ be worked out. Those not in the 200 DMA's ("fly-over country") are the other minority here.

So perhaps their thinking is that the non-OTA boxes will cover 90+% of their potential market and maybe 95+% of the market for non-DVR customers. You can quibble with the %'s here, but moving on to my main point: The "new platform" for HD LiL's, with all the weak links in the many different chains, is not sufficiently robust to justify this thinking. It may be one day, but probably not any time soon. A very large percentage of prime time viewing is major network programming. An OTA backup will be required for some time into the future before D* can comfortably feel that they have done a good job satisfying the needs of the majority of their customers, let alone the non-HD LiL-covered minority of HD DVR owners.

Perhaps as has been suggested we just have another case of temporary unavailability, and this is all just a "tempest in a teapot." That's not what we're hearing though when CSR's are telling customers to "go shopping" for OTA receivers, delivering HR21's when HR20's are specified, etc. A little communication with subscribers about this issue is in order. We need to know where they're going with this.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I live 20 miles NE of NYC, and D* still doesn't offer PBS, CW or WB in HD. I can only receive them OTA. If I was a new customer and had no OTA option via D*, I would be forced to go with FIOStv or Cablevision instead.

I assumed that now that the HR21 is out, D* would just hold back HR20 shipments and save them for the customers who really need or want OTA. Apparently, that's not the case, based on the OP's experience.

I wonder, are new subscribers that easy to acquire that D* can afford to be unaccommodating to those that insist on OTA? /steve


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## nhlfan79 (Aug 31, 2006)

cmoss5 said:


> I HAVE 3 HD RECEIVERS...1 HR20, 1 HR20-700, 1 HR20-100 AND HAVE NO PROBLEMS IN ATLANTA WITH NBC FEED FROM DIRECTV....HAVE THEM COME OUT AND CHECK YOUR SIGNAL STRENGTHS ON YOUR FEEDS TO YOUR DISH...ALSO, DO YOU HAVE THE
> 5LNB DISH...IS A MUST TO GET SIGNAL PROPERLY...


Thanks, but I know all that. I have two HR20s with good signals strengths (90+) on TP 1 on 103(a), where the HD locals come from. I don't know how you're not seeing these fairly common green breakups. They've been extensively covered in several threads, including:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=100467&highlight=wxia

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=101716&highlight=nbc+atlanta

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=68506&highlight=nbc+atlanta

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=104421&highlight=nbc+atlanta

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103434&highlight=nbc+atlanta

I could cite about a dozen others. Want me to continue?


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

What probably happened was Directv planned on a large majority of the population getting HD LIL off of D10 spot beams, so they started the HR-21 design and manufacture. 

D10 did not deliver on the spot beam capability (Hopefully, D11 will remedy the spot beam problem.), and so directv switched their philosophy to "get the HD nationals out first". But they had the HR-21's already manufactured, so they have to give them out. Thus customers end up with no OTA and no HD LIL's either.

PS: I have to say this is the first time I have seen Hasan this upset. You know it is a real problem if you can make him mad.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

And I forgot to mention in the above "robustness" post the rain fade problem, which will _always_ be with us and is a significant weakness of the Ka HD platform. I don't know if D* has done any marketing studies to determine what percentage of existing customers maintain some type of OTA antenna to deal with this problem, but I am one of them. Subscribers in the southeast US and particularly Florida are widely effected by this issue, and that is a very large number of D* customers. Sure we can use the ATSC tuners in our TV's, but people don't _like_ to mess with switching inputs, remotes, etc., and it leaves all their DVR customers out in the cold.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> I think D* may have gotten a little ahead of themselves here. Their thinking may be that very shortly a great majority of their customers will be served by HD LiL's, therefore obviating the need for OTA capability for those customers. I know, I know: what about PBS, the sub-channels, etc.? Another minority from their point of view, and some kind of PBS deal _will_ be worked out. Those not in the 200 DMA's ("fly-over country") are the other minority here.
> 
> So perhaps their thinking is that the non-OTA boxes will cover 90+% of their potential market and maybe 95+% of the market for non-DVR customers. You can quibble with the %'s here, but moving on to my main point: The "new platform" for HD LiL's, with all the weak links in the many different chains, is not sufficiently robust to justify this thinking. It may be one day, but probably not any time soon. A very large percentage of prime time viewing is major network programming. An OTA backup will be required for some time into the future before D* can comfortably feel that they have done a good job satisfying the needs of the majority of their customers, let alone the non-HD LiL-covered minority of HD DVR owners.
> 
> Perhaps as has been suggested we just have another case of temporary unavailability, and this is all just a "tempest in a teapot." That's not what we're hearing though when CSR's are telling customers to "go shopping" for OTA receivers, delivering HR21's when HR20's are specified, etc. A little communication with subscribers about this issue is in order. We need to know where they're going with this.


I don't quibble with their reasoning. I do with their execution. I hope for a tempest in a teapot, but I'm no longer as "trusting" as I have been, *if* the report of the OP is accurate.

BTW, we were promised HD-LIL last December. Still nothing....and as you noted there are other compelling reasons for OTA, which I won't go into (yet again).

We need a choice. As long as there is one, I'm satisfied. The OP makes it look like there is no choice, and along with the bait and switch, I have a BIG problem with D* at the moment. (my first substantive complaint since 1994!)


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

leww37334 said:


> What probably happened was Directv planned on a large majority of the population getting HD LIL off of D10 spot beams, so they started the HR-21 design and manufacture.


Even if D10 had no problems, D11 was up and functional and D* had every HD channels up there they could get you'd still need ATSC in the HD DVR's for the stations that won't give D* retransmission rights. There are some station owners (LIN) that have not come to agreement with D* or E* to allow for retransmission of the ATSC signal.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

hasan said:


> I don't quibble with their reasoning......


As I said, I'm not really sure this _is_ their reasoning. But if it were, I would have thought you _would_ have quibbled with it for the reasons stated....

Certainly the "execution" here is horrible, hence my request for clarification in where they're going. Will there or won't there be a choice?


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

RAD said:


> Even if D10 had no problems, D11 was up and functional and D* had every HD channels up there they could get you'd still need ATSC in the HD DVR's for the stations that won't give D* retransmission rights. There are some station owners (LIN) that have not come to agreement with D* or E* to allow for retransmission of the ATSC signal.


All true, and I will keep my OTA, even if I have to switch to Dish, I am just trying to understand Directv's thinking. Directv may believe they can eventually force the reluctant stations to give them carriage....


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## jake14mw (Oct 5, 2007)

This is my first response to this whole topic. I have always thought that once DirecTV had HD locals for most people, that they could start saving some money and simplifying their product by providing a lower cost HD DVR without OTA tuners. When the review came up here on the HR21 w/o OTA, I didn’t join the knee jerk ranters who began complaining. Choice is good I thought. The key question here is how much money does this save them? The rest of the DVR is the same, but now they have two different models to deal with that are basically the same. I say it would have to save them a significant amount on each receiver for this added confusion to be worth it. Why come out with a new model that only has insignificant benefits, and takes away a key feature for some subset of your customer base? 

Really, how much does not including OTA save them? Is it worth this confusion/hassle to installers, D* service people, and customers?

Down the road, when they have have HD Local service to 80% of people, and have AT LEAST the Big 4 plus PBS, this MIGHT make some sense, IF it really saves them enough on the box production costs. Right now, they claim to have HD locals in XX (don’t know the number) markets, but in many of those markets they are missing key channels that people can get OTA. In my market, Hartford (#28 market), we only get 3 HD locals. People need OTA still.

DirecTV’s installation process is already complicated enough. Anyone that has had their service for any length of time knows how hard it is to get any install of equipment done correctly. Why add ANOTHER problem to the process? Yes, it seems like it should be easy, doesn’t it? There are 2 HD DVRs, one that accepts input from an antenna, and one that doesn’t. If the customer needs OTA give them an HR20, if not an HR21. They have proven time and time again that they can’t handle things like this. Simple things get screwed up.

I agree with the fact that MOST of DirecTVs HD customers don’t want or need a box with OTA. The exact percentage is certainly debatable. This box might be a good idea a year or two from now when the percentage is much higher, IF it saves a lot of money for them. 

I hope they correct this issue and develop an intelligent process to get people the HD DVR that they need.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

One thing that we DON'T need to be hearing next: that they have shut down the refurb lines on the OTA receivers. These HR20 hard drives _will_ fail, and if they quit doing reman's on the HR20's, there would be a lot of folks here ordering the special Torx drivers...


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

Have any of our posters with connections heard anything from D* about this issue?


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

hasan said:


> Specific involvement in response to bait and switch, or changing an order without notice to the consumer is what the State Attorney General is for (and that is government, like it or not).


*"bait and switch"?* Are you sure it wasn't just a mistake? I think that the last thing people should want to do is get the government involved. At the end of the day, you might get some cash or some credits but you will wait a very long time.

If this bothers people they should contact DTV and tell them and get retention involved.

It just makes me crazy when the first things that people say when they are not happy is getting the government involved or a class-action lawsuit. These should be your last recourses not your first.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Agreed.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

I find it hard to believe that somewhere in the DTV chain of command there is not a way to specify that a OTA capable reciever (or any other specific model) be shipped.


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## tonyquan (Jan 8, 2004)

hasan said:


> I don't quibble with their reasoning. I do with their execution. I hope for a tempest in a teapot, but I'm no longer as "trusting" as I have been, *if* the report of the OP is accurate.


Hasan--I need to get on here and defend myself a little bit, I am telling the story exactly as it happened. We've all seen garbage on the Internet though, so I take no offense at your being a little skeptical. 

Although I don't post much, I've been a long time reader of dbstalk. I was hoping to get the word out that this is happening, and for folks to be careful.

As for myself, I actually undertook the switch to the HR20 with a lot of trepidation, as I was coming from the DirecTV HD TiVo and (still) love that box. My biggest fear was some kind of screwup, and it happened unfortunately. As I said, retention saved me, but just barely....


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

My issue is with the observations that HR20's are becoming hard to find. I have no problem with D* offering a cheaper box for folks who do not need OTA. What I do have an issue with is when there is no D* support for OTA. Reading between the lines in posts by Earl and others, D* seems to be positioning itself for a non-OTA world.

In a way, this is ironic: For most of the 90's, D* had no LiL capability and fought tooth and nail to avoid having to do that. Anyone who wanted local networks in the 90's had to put up an OTA antenna or do without. Which is what I did and have continued to do. D*'s preferred model was to supply national or regional networks with maybe a smattering of local independents. Since they had no spot beams at the time, the bandwidth cost of LiL was staggering. One of the reasons why D* SD Lite is so poor.

Now that D* has been forced by the feds to provide every broadcaster a free satellite signal (2 (or more) with HD) (gotta love that NAB), they don't see a need to provide the same broadcasters a free OTA tuner. After all, D* is in the sat biz, not the OTA biz. I get that.

Problem is that I'm in the TV watching "biz" and I don't want to be locked into one source. One of the reasons I dumped cable in 1994 is that their local channels' PQ was far worse than what I could get OTA. D* gave me the best of both worlds, and I'd really really like to keep it that way.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I will trade both of my HR20's for HR21's. Just let me know when and where.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

armophob said:


> I will trade both of my HR20's for HR21's. Just let me know when and where.


Just curious, why???
Other than a preference for the shiny black exterior i couldn't imagine why someone would want to do this.


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## m0ondoggy (Sep 11, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> Just curious, why???
> Other than a preference for the shiny black exterior i couldn't imagine why someone would want to do this.


I can't answer for armophob, but I would do the same. I have had bad luck with regards to reliability with HR20-100's, so a newer HR21-700 may work out better for me. I don't use OTA, so it's not like I'd really be losing anything. I couldn't care less about the color.


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## CTJon (Feb 5, 2007)

The poll on this forum indicates a great majority need OTA. 
Although I don't need OTA I personally think this is a big mistake for D*. There are plenty of places where you can't get locals and more with no local HD - witness threads that deal with what you can get and how to protest. 
D* needs to provide the entire package to people or they will go elsewhere. Gee we have the most and the best - oh you want local stations also sorry can't do.

This is a big mistake on D* part. Someone in planning and equipment acquisition really blew it. From what it sounds like either from stores or from D* you won't be able to do OTA soon. Wonder what they do with all the broken HR20's.


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## dbmaven (May 29, 2004)

armophob said:


> I will trade both of my HR20's for HR21's. Just let me know when and where.


Me too.

Can't get OTA, so a simpler product makes sense for me.
All my other components are black, so that works better for me from an aesthetics standpoint.

Of course, with the whole "lease" thing it could get sticky trying to explain to a CSR what you're doing......but that's a different topic.


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## headshotwi (Oct 26, 2007)

I have been a TWC subscriber for years. I decided to switch to directv to take advantage of the large amount of HD content. I went online and purchased the HD DVR plan for 59.99 and scheduled the install for this Sat afternoon! Immediately afterwards I realized that DTV does not offer CW(18) and many other locals in HD. So I called them up to address this and this is what happened.

I explained that i wanted to keep getting my local HD stations and that I wanted to add an OTA antenna to my order and have the guy hook it up with the rest of the stuff. They said they could not modify orders and that I would have to cancel and do the order again. They said to look carefully online for the adding an antenna option. I could NOT find this option so I called them. They started taking my order over the phone and the lady could also not figure out how to add the antenna to my order. She got a manager. The manager was getting frustrated and finally said, sir I cannot figure out how to add the antenna to your order and went quiet. I said well can you transfer me to someone who knows how to do this or another manager? He said sure and transferred me back to the main queue. I had to explain everything again. They transfered me to another manager who said that the new LNB5 sat dish will also function as an OTA antenna as long as I have the HD DVR. I didn't every read this or heard of this but believed him since it was a manager from DTV telling me this. I was then transferred to a very nice sales rep who took my order again this time over the phone. He also commented about the new OTA capability of the LNB5 dish. Unfortuantely my appointment block was no longer available so now i have to wait until next Saturday to get it installed.

Then last night I talked to some people and read some boards and basically found out that DTV was full of **** and that there was no OTA capability on the dish. So I call them again today to find out what is going on and why I keep getting told the wrong things. Finally I get another manager who explains that the HD20 allows this feature but the HR21 does not and thats why they no longer allow people to purchase an antenna. I said well which DVR am I getting. He said he did not know and said he would get the local installer on the line and ask. Instead of doing that he cold transferred me to Premier who had no idea what I was talking about and transferred me to the local installer who confirmed I was getting an HR20(thank god. Hopefully they show up with an HR20).


During this entire ordeal I've spent about 4 hours on the phone. Half the time when I ask for a supervisor I just get transferred back to the main queue. I was lied to and given misinformation multiple times. I asked a manager if I could get a discount or a premium channel for free or SOMETHING ANYTHING to make up for the hours of pain I went through trying to figure this out. They said they couldn't do anything but gave me the number for customer service. I spoke with them and they said SORRY. Thats it. SORRY. I said ummm, most companies that put you through hell offer some kind of compensation or try to smooth things out. She said they can't provide me with anything becuase my status is pending. I say well am I supposed to complain after I get it installed? You guys aren't allowed to handle complaints before the install? She basically blew me off.

After hearing some good things about DTV I am very VERY shocked and appauled at the way that DTV has treated me as a new customer. I don't like being lied to and dicked around and if that installer doesn't show up with an HR20 like I was told I am going to flip out.

Seriously what the hell is wrong with these people.(not that TWC is much better but I've never been outright lied to).


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## reggie (Jul 9, 2007)

kcmurphy88 said:


> Amazing that DirecTV could actually make people nostalgic for the HR20. I guess the HR22 will only have one tuner if we complain about the HR21's lack of OTA too much.


That will take care of the DLB issue.:lol:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jkast said:


> I'm sure glad I got my HR20s two months ago. My bet is that unless we get fairly vocal on here or the government gets involved, it will be the last DirecTV HD DVR with OTA....  and the consumer will lose again.


It's unlikely that the government would care at all .. The government has required that new TVs any tuner have an ATSC tuner built in, but we're talking about a set top box. Besides, a TV without a tuner is just a monitor. DIRECTV's core business is providing satellite television. The zero dollars per subscriber for over the air channels doesn't help.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

headshotwi said:


> I have been a TWC subscriber for years. I decided to switch to directv to take advantage of the large amount of HD content. I went online and purchased the HD DVR plan for 59.99 and scheduled the install for this Sat afternoon! Immediately afterwards I realized that DTV does not offer CW(18) and many other locals in HD. So I called them up to address this and this is what happened.
> 
> I explained that i wanted to keep getting my local HD stations and that I wanted to add an OTA antenna to my order and have the guy hook it up with the rest of the stuff. They said they could not modify orders and that I would have to cancel and do the order again. They said to look carefully online for the adding an antenna option. I could NOT find this option so I called them. They started taking my order over the phone and the lady could also not figure out how to add the antenna to my order. She got a manager. The manager was getting frustrated and finally said, sir I cannot figure out how to add the antenna to your order and went quiet. I said well can you transfer me to someone who knows how to do this or another manager? He said sure and transferred me back to the main queue. I had to explain everything again. They transfered me to another manager who said that the new LNB5 sat dish will also function as an OTA antenna as long as I have the HD DVR. I didn't every read this or heard of this but believed him since it was a manager from DTV telling me this. I was then transferred to a very nice sales rep who took my order again this time over the phone. He also commented about the new OTA capability of the LNB5 dish. Unfortuantely my appointment block was no longer available so now i have to wait until next Saturday to get it installed.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the world of customer service.


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## rubble3 (Sep 21, 2007)

I get my locals via OTA in the St. Louis area. Does anyone know if D* carries all the sub-channels... or do you just get the main *-1 channel. That would be a big reason for the FCC to get involved. If they aren't offering all the content that the broadcasters are sending out. I know the PBS station here locally broadcasts on 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 & 9-4. Do you get all channels if getting locals via D* and not OTA?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

rubble3 said:


> I get my locals via OTA in the St. Louis area. Does anyone know if D* carries all the sub-channels... or do you just get the main *-1 channel. That would be a big reason for the FCC to get involved. If they aren't offering all the content that the broadcasters are sending out. I know the PBS station here locally broadcasts on 9-1, 9-2, 9-3 & 9-4. Do you get all channels if getting locals via D* and not OTA?


sub-channels are not carried by DIRECTV (by and large). There is no must-carry rule involving sub-channels and the FCC would have to get involved for that to happen.


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## reggie (Jul 9, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> Welcome to the world of customer service.


I wish I could buy everything in the store including the dish and install myself. I would know what I was getting, how it would be installed and could take it back if it failed. I would rather spend a week aiming the dish than depend on customer service to make me happy.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

If you go to the DirecTV website there's no option to purchase an HD DVR with OTA capability. The only mention I can find of OTA there is in the HR20's manual...and we know how accurate that is.

There's no way to select between an HR20 or HR21 that I can see.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

hasan said:


> I have an HR20-xxx scheduled for install on Nov 6th. I called the installer and told them I would NOT accept an HR21, that I needed OTA for this particular location in the house. They confirmed with the actual installer that I would be getting an HR20-xxx, and not an HR21.
> 
> We'll see. My blood pressure is already increasing, and I find myself actually getting angry at D* for the first time since I came here. (based on this thread)
> 
> ...


I would not let them in the door. Have them pack it up and send them on there way. Looks like it takes more time if you have them install the HR21 and work with D* to get an HR20. Yeah you might get some free stuff but, you wasted a hell of a lot of time. You need to get 2 years free....all the stuff you have to do.


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

I must ask....

What does D* expect people to do if not ALL of their HD locals are carried via sat? Example: WTNH is NOT carried in HD over D*, because of WTNH parent companies greed. I *need* OTA if I want to see this channel over HD.

I can see saying "you dont have to have every channel in HD, you can get by", but then isnt DirecTV pushing to be the "leader in HD"?

I also understand there is probably only a limited amount of customers in this position.....but still, I think they need to be able to make exceptions for those customers.

-Chris


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

tonyquan said:


> Hasan--I need to get on here and defend myself a little bit, I am telling the story exactly as it happened. We've all seen garbage on the Internet though, so I take no offense at your being a little skeptical.
> 
> Although I don't post much, I've been a long time reader of dbstalk. I was hoping to get the word out that this is happening, and for folks to be careful.
> 
> As for myself, I actually undertook the switch to the HR20 with a lot of trepidation, as I was coming from the DirecTV HD TiVo and (still) love that box. My biggest fear was some kind of screwup, and it happened unfortunately. As I said, retention saved me, but just barely....


Tony, I wasn't questioning what you posted, but trying to ferret out what D* is really saying. At any given time it can be ....well....challenging. When I feel myself getting bent out of shape over what appears to be dirty tricks or just outright incompetence or indifference, I prefer to put a big *if* in front of things, in case I, or someone else has misinterpreted what D* is doing. I'm not skeptical about what you said, I'm skeptical about D* being able to grab its behind with both hands when it comes to communicating with people.

If what I have seen in this particular thread had been present when I first came to D* in '94, I would have hesitated getting involved with them. When you combine the cherry picking HD-Extra debacle with this current HR20/21 flap, there is a bad odor adrift. The fact that E* or Cable may be worse, is not exactly confidence building.

Whoever is allegedly managing D*'s communication to customers should either resign out of embarrassment (in case it's not their fault), or be terminated for incompetence. It's as if D* isn't aware that their business is customer driven, and the bottom line derives from doing that part well.

D* has a really nice box in the HR20 series and it has undergone phenomenal development since last year at this time. I have been very happy with the HR20 and its development program for many, many months.

It is a shame to see some of this fine work contaminated by the nonsense epitomized in this thread.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

CTJon said:


> The poll on this forum indicates a great majority need OTA.


the poll indicates that a majority of members of this forum want/need OTA.

The need for OTA for the general public is quite a bit less. Of the 15 households that I know have D* (friends and family), none of them use OTA.

I'm sure D* has statistics of some kind regarding how many people use the OTA capabilities of the HR20 and my guess is those numbers aren't even close to the results of this forums poll.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

jwd45244 said:


> Please explain to me how and why the government would get involved. That is not what government is for. If you don't like what DTV is doing tell them and vote with your wallet.


I'd certainly quit D* if my HR20-700 quits and they can only replace it with an HR21. I'd also expect D* to release me from my two-year commitment since they would be offering a much reduced service. And I'd expect some government agency to get involved if D* refused.

At the moment the situation is hypothetical, but I've already had one receiver replaced...

Bill


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## amallon (Oct 12, 2006)

All I can say is that for me personally, the ability to record HD OTA is critical. Of the 25 season passes I have set, 18 of them are for OTA broadcasts. DirecTV doesn't provide HD LIL service for my market (Tucson) and I value HD OTA far more than I value satellite channels. If my HR20 breaks and DirecTV can't provide me with a replacement that records HD OTA, I'll be cancelling my service.

I really hope that DirecTV won't phase out the HR20 and will keep them in stock for those customers like me that depend on OTA.

EDIT: Bill said just about the same thing I said, only better.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> the poll indicates that a majority of members of this forum want/need OTA.
> 
> The need for OTA for the general public is quite a bit less. Of the 15 households that I know have D* (friends and family), none of them use OTA.
> 
> I'm sure D* has statistics of some kind regarding how many people use the OTA capabilities of the HR20 and my guess is those numbers aren't even close to the results of this forums poll.


The majority of people I meet don't have HD, so none of them use it. Guess we don't need it either.

The vast majority of people I meet with HD sets don't even know they can get all major networks in this area free, for the cost of a set of rabbit ears.

That's how effective Cable and Sat propaganda about OTA has been.

There's not much in OTA for D*, so I would hardly rely on them to provide a balanced assessment of the pro's and con's in any given location. I'm sure D* does have some idea of OTA....and it is a measure of lack of information, disinformation and misinformation about OTA that helps depress those statistics. It is in D*'s interest to discount the efficacy of OTA.

Giving viewers a choice is in their interest. Limiting those choices is in D*'s.

Why should we be surprised?


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

dbmaven said:


> Me too.
> 
> Can't get OTA, so a simpler product makes sense for me.
> All my other components are black, so that works better for me from an aesthetics standpoint.
> ...


Add me too. I can get OTA but I have no use for it. Id gladly switch my HR20 for an HR21 in a heartbeat.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> Just curious, why???
> Other than a preference for the shiny black exterior i couldn't imagine why someone would want to do this.


Not for any serious reliability issues, mostly aesthetics. The cooling issue, grounded plug, and black shell are all upgrades not including the under hood ones.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

chrisexv6 said:


> What does D* expect people to do if not ALL of their HD locals are carried via sat? Example: WTNH is NOT carried in HD over D*, because of WTNH parent companies greed. I *need* OTA if I want to see this channel over HD.


If you have an OTA antenna, you can hook that up to your TV and watch it to your heart's content. If you have an HR21, you can watch and record satellite delivered content but not record OTA. (you can still watch it if it is hooked into your TV) With an HR20 you can watch and record both satellite and OTA content.

What about any of the above limits your ability to watch OTA content?

Being able to record OTA content through a DVR is great. I like it and use it, but DTV is not in the OTA business. I wish they had an OTA tuner in the HR21 but I understand why they don't.

Folks, everyone needs to relax. It is just TV after all.


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

jwd45244 said:


> If you have an OTA antenna, you can hook that up to your TV and watch it to your heart's content. If you have an HR21, you can watch and record satellite delivered content but not record OTA. (you can still watch it if it is hooked into your TV) With an HR20 you can watch and record both satellite and OTA content.
> 
> What about any of the above limits your ability to watch OTA content?
> 
> ...


+1


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## PennHORN (Sep 13, 2007)

jwd45244 said:


> If you have an OTA antenna, you can hook that up to your TV and watch it to your heart's content. If you have an HR21, you can watch and record satellite delivered content but not record OTA. (you can still watch it if it is hooked into your TV) With an HR20 you can watch and record both satellite and OTA content.
> 
> What about any of the above limits your ability to watch OTA content?
> 
> ...


Sorry, I am friggin not going to "relax" as some corporate nimrod either through sheer incompetence or greed is going to deprive me of critical functionality that is already present. I wouldn't have signed up with D* if I knew OTA integration was being phased out. TV is my main form of entertainment and I have invested a lot of money in my setup as have others. This after all a friggin board devoted to TV. Would you say the same thing on a sports message board.


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

jwd45244 said:


> If you have an OTA antenna, you can hook that up to your TV and watch it to your heart's content. If you have an HR21, you can watch and record satellite delivered content but not record OTA. (you can still watch it if it is hooked into your TV) With an HR20 you can watch and record both satellite and OTA content.
> 
> What about any of the above limits your ability to watch OTA content?
> 
> ...


Spoken like a guy who's Hd locals are available via satellite.


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## Tulsa1 (Oct 15, 2003)

K4SMX said:


> And I forgot to mention in the above "robustness" post the rain fade problem, which will _always_ be with us and is a significant weakness of the Ka HD platform. I don't know if D* has done any marketing studies to determine what percentage of existing customers maintain some type of OTA antenna to deal with this problem, but I am one of them. Subscribers in the southeast US and particularly Florida are widely effected by this issue, and that is a very large number of D* customers. Sure we can use the ATSC tuners in our TV's, but people don't _like_ to mess with switching inputs, remotes, etc., and it leaves all their DVR customers out in the cold.


This is a huge issue for here (tornado belt). Big storm rolls in, D* fades out
and OTA is my only choice to know WTH is happening with the local weather.


----------



## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

PennHORN said:


> Sorry, I am friggin not going to "relax" as some corporate nimrod either through sheer incompetence or greed is going to deprive me of critical functionality that is already present. I wouldn't have signed up with D* if I knew OTA integration was being phased out. TV is my main form of entertainment and I have invested a lot of money in my setup as have others. This after all a friggin board devoted to TV. Would you say the same thing on a sports message board.


I am a huge sports fan and yes I would say it. If you don't like what DTV does, tell them or vote with your wallet and leave. I am confused as to what I said that is wrong. DTV is in the satellite content delivery business, they have had a very nice feature for some of their receivers that would allow us the ability to combine OTA content in to that. I like it and use it.

At the end of the day that feature costs them money and is questionable as to how much extra revenue it brings in. Again, I like the feature. If another provider gives you what you need, then you can and should go to that provider. You should tell DTV why you are leaving. Maybe they will change but maybe not.


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## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

jwd45244 said:


> I am a huge sports fan and yes I would say it. If you don't like what DTV does, tell them or vote with your wallet and leave. I am confused as to what I said that is wrong. DTV is in the satellite content delivery business, they have had a very nice feature for some of their receivers that would allow us the ability to combine OTA content in to that. I like it and use it.
> 
> At the end of the day that feature costs them money and is questionable as to how much extra revenue it brings in. Again, I like the feature. If another provider gives you what you need, then you can and should go to that provider. You should tell DTV why you are leaving. Maybe they will change but maybe not.


agree it costs D*a few extra $$ but the consumer
should have the choice of a receiver with it at (X) price
or without at (Y) price


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

jwd45244 said:


> I am a huge sports fan and yes I would say it. If you don't like what DTV does, tell them or vote with your wallet and leave. I am confused as to what I said that is wrong. DTV is in the satellite content delivery business, they have had a very nice feature for some of their receivers that would allow us the ability to combine OTA content in to that. I like it and use it.
> 
> At the end of the day that feature costs them money and is questionable as to how much extra revenue it brings in. Again, I like the feature. If another provider gives you what you need, then you can and should go to that provider. You should tell DTV why you are leaving. Maybe they will change but maybe not.


It brings in $90+ a month from me...I picked Directv because 2 OTA tuners are better than the 1 offered by Dish's HD DVR. However, 1 OTA is better than none.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

PennHORN said:


> Sorry, I am friggin not going to "relax" as some corporate nimrod either through sheer incompetence or greed is going to deprive me of critical functionality that is already present. I wouldn't have signed up with D* if I knew OTA integration was being phased out. TV is my main form of entertainment and I have invested a lot of money in my setup as have others. This after all a friggin board devoted to TV. Would you say the same thing on a sports message board.


Wow.

It's a business decision. Obviously you don't own a business (or if you do, you won't for much longer) and don't understand the difference between greed and a responsibility to investors.

Providers change things everyday in order to improve the bottom line. As has been mentioned, you'll still be able to have OTA if you choose (with an HR21). You won't be able to record it with an HR21, but you're not deprived of anything.

Even if D* stops providing the HR20 machines (which I doubt), there's still plenty of other ways to obtain one and there'll continue to be those other outlets for at least the next several years (past whatever your current commitment is at least).

So, how are you being deprived? And why in the world would this little issue cause you such grief? Life's too short. Take a breath. Go for a walk. Enjoy the sun. Get out of the house. Live life.

And yes, the same things would be said on a sports forum. Why wouldn't they?


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Kinda hard to argue with this. I got my first HR 3 months before OTA was even activated. Trust me, DVR owners like myself with 5 children can't "sit down at 8" to watch something on a major network. OTA was the best thing that happened to my HDTV watching experience, especially considering, at that time, there were very few actual HD channels from the SAT.

The key point here is in the quote though - "already present".

EDIT: That said, I don't think the HR20s will go away any time soon either.



PennHORN said:


> critical functionality that is already present. I wouldn't have signed up with D* if I knew OTA integration was being phased out. .


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Well my 2c worth:
1. if they dropped ota here I'd be screwed.. I only get about 1/2 my major locals from sat.. and 1/6th of what is availible here
2. This was problably the #1 reason I went with D* in the 1st place
3. 30-40% of my recordings are still from OTA...
4. Having to switch back and forth to TV tuner to see chanels would be a total nightmare here, my wife would never be able to cope with it...


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

ccr1958 said:


> agree it costs D*a few extra $$ but the consumer
> should have the choice of a receiver with it at (X) price
> or without at (Y) price


I agree. I don't own or want and H21/HR21 right now. But the way to get DTV's attention is not on this board but in the marketplace, either by contacting them directly or leaving if the costs exceed the value. This board is great for spleen venting but that is it. Now don't get me wrong, everyone can and should be able to vent here, but it won't change anything. We DBSTalker's are such a small subset of DTV's customer base.

The only way to get DTV or any company to change is via your wallet.


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## iceburg02 (Sep 20, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> As has been mentioned, you'll still be able to have OTA if you choose (with an HR21). You won't be able to record it with an HR21, but you're not deprived of anything.


If you won't be able to record it, by definition you're "deprived" of something. And that something appears to be a service that's valuable to some (including me).

However, your point about this all coming down to the bottom line is well made. But based on a few posts in this thread, D* may want to consider the impact to its churn rate should it cease to produce a OTA-enabled HD-DVR.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

houskamp said:


> Well my 2c worth:
> 1. if they dropped ota here I'd be screwed.. I only get about 1/2 my major locals from sat.. and 1/6th of what is availible here
> 2. This was problably the #1 reason I went with D* in the 1st place
> 3. 30-40% of my recordings are still from OTA...
> 4. Having to switch back and forth to TV tuner to see chanels would be a total nightmare here, my wife would never be able to cope with it...


Houskamp:

She can't press a button? How does she watch a DVD (assuming that she does)? I also assume that you have only been with DTV for 2 or 3 years cause they have only had that ability to combine in OTA about that long.


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

If D* ever figured out how to provide HD locals without pixelation/audio dropouts, I would be "ok" with things if they dropped the OTA tuner...until then (and somehow I have a feeling they will never get it completely fixed) I expect a DVR with OTA....


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

This may be logistically difficult or even impossible, but it would make sense to me that if, in fact, both HR20s and HR21s are being distributed, that they be shipped and inventoried to areas based upon need. D* knows which areas don't yet have HD LiLs, so priortizing distribution based upon that would make good customer satisfaction sense. 

I know it wouldn't help the, "well what about PBS!" people, but it would be a start.


----------



## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> Wow.
> 
> It's a business decision. Obviously you don't own a business (or if you do, you won't for much longer) and don't understand the difference between greed and a responsibility to investors.
> 
> Providers change things everyday in order to improve the bottom line. As has been mentioned, you'll still be able to have OTA if you choose (with an HR21). You won't be able to record it with an HR21, but you're not deprived of anything.


I can't believe I just read that posted in forum dedicated to a DVR. If we wanted to watch it live we wouldn't have a DVR in the first place.


----------



## nhlfan79 (Aug 31, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> If you have an OTA antenna, you can hook that up to your TV and watch it to your heart's content.


Not every HDTV has an internal tuner, y'know. My main HDTV is three years old, works perfectly, but has no internal tuner. Why should I have to replace my TV just because D* is cutting a corner by excluding OTA tuners?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> Houskamp:
> 
> She can't press a button? How does she watch a DVD (assuming that she does). I aslo asume that you have only been with DTV for 2 or 3 years cause they have only had that ability to combine in OTA about that long.


took a computer programmable remote to get her to stop calling me all the time.. used to get calls all the time.. best thing they ever did was to put it ll together in one guide.. also since she works 2nd shift the ability to record OTA is an absolute MUST for her... of the 30 series links she has about 20 are off OTA... If OTA was abandon by D* I would be forced to leave as it would have reduced the value of having D* by 80% here...


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

Jaysv said:


> I can't believe I just read that posted in forum dedicated to a DVR. If we wanted to watch it live we wouldn't have a DVR in the first place.


The HR20/21 are not general purpose DVRs. Again, ask yourself. You you had a product that got you 1 or 2 extra customers in 100 but was expensive to implement and support would you?

Remember that OTA has only been enabled in the HR20 for less than a year


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

nhlfan79 said:


> Not every HDTV has an internal tuner, y'know. My main HDTV is three years old, works perfectly, but has no internal tuner. Why should I have to replace my TV just because D* is cutting a corner by excluding OTA tuners?


Again, I agree. But what business is DTV in? The are not in the OTA content business.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> Again, I agree. But what business is DTV in? The are not in the OTA content business.


Nope there in the TV buisness....


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

Canis Lupus said:


> This may be logistically difficult or even impossible, but it would make sense to me that if, in fact, both HR20s and HR21s are being distributed, that they be shipped and inventoried to areas based upon need. D* knows which areas don't yet have HD LiLs, so priortizing distribution based upon that would make good customer satisfaction sense.
> 
> I know it wouldn't help the, "well what about PBS!" people, but it would be a start.


At BB here no H20s, all H21s (plus no inventory card on the shelf in indicated they still carry it in store, and are just temporarily out) and we have no HD LIL in this market.

The OTA mystery continues.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

You can by HR20s here: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=02&CAT=&PROD=HR20


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

I just thought of something. Maybe this is DIRECTV'S way of helping TIVO stay in business. If you want to record HD OTA's and still keep your HR21 or H21 you could buy a TIVO to do it, for $299 and monthly subscription payments. :nono:


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> I also assume that you have only been with DTV for *2 or 3 years cause they have only had that ability to combine in OTA about that long*.


???

Define "combine in OTA". My RCA DTC-100 D* HD receiver had both ATSC and NTSC tuners circa 2000. All subsequent D* ( or contracted manufacturer) HD receivers have had ATSC tuners until the H/HR21's.

If you mean record OTA, then that started in late April 2004 or roughly 3.5 years ago.

I really don't understand the level of venom aimed at those who want OTA. If you don't want or need it, fine, but there are some of us who do have a want or need for it, so why do you give a $#@!? Are you pi**ed that we have been enjoying OTA HD for longer than you have had D* HD locals or are you outside of the OTA range and can't get it? Really, why do you care so much?

Note: The term "you" does not refer to anyone specifically.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

jwd45244 said:


> Again, I agree. But what business is DTV in? The are not in the OTA content business.


Yes D* *IS* in the OTA content business. A HUGE portion of their satellite delivery infrastructure is dedicated to providing retransmissions of OTA channels because without that capability they can't compete effectively with cable.

Since their current HD OTA coverage via their satellites is severely lacking, failing to give a customer an OTA capable DVR on request is beyond stupid.


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

jwd45244 said:


> The HR20/21 are not general purpose DVRs. Again, ask yourself. You you had a product that got you 1 or 2 extra customers in 100 but was expensive to implement and support would you?
> 
> Remember that OTA has only been enabled in the HR20 for less than a year


Wow the arbitrary OTA use percentage has dropped from 10% to 1% to 2% now.

And while I agree, in theory that Directv knows the actual numbers and is making their business decisions on them, I'm not as convinced that they are interpreting the data correctly, or even if they are, they likely should have waited until D11 was up and running before releasing the HR21.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Yes I would, because the difference in cost to manufacture and support one device (the 20) compared to the other (the 21) pales in comparison to the revenue I would generate from subscriptions.

The hardware in this business model (the DVR cost) is negligible. The costs for hardware are hard costs. The negative soft costs (subscriber dollars over time) in this case, which are by far more profitable long-term, are the portion of the model that I would be focused on keeping and growing.

So if I have a piece of hardware that is desired by only 1 out of 40 customers I would continue to provide it and support it to gain subscription dollars over time. That hardware is already in the chain. I would have no reason to give it up unless it cost, say, twice as much. But we're talking about $5-$15 here. Come February, I will have already recouped the $15 by charging $5/month for the Extra Pack.

The money is in the subscriptions.



jwd45244 said:


> The HR20/21 are not general purpose DVRs. Again, ask yourself. You you had a product that got you 1 or 2 extra customers in 100 but was expensive to implement and support would you?
> 
> Remember that OTA has only been enabled in the HR20 for less than a year


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

jwd45244 said:


> Again, I agree. But what business is DTV in? The are not in the OTA content business.


No. but they are trying to get you as a customer by "replacing" local cable.

Local cable here has ALL of the local channels and the sub-channels. Even after D11, D* doesn't plan to carry EVERY local channel and the subs. At least from what we've heard, so far.

If D* didn't care about OTA content, they wouldn't be developing LIL in HD.

For those with lousy cable and/or OTA problematic/impossible reception, D* without OTA is a fantastic, wonderful service option, they never had before.

For those with solid OTA coverage, it enhances the D* ownership experience, eliminating frustrating weather related outages, and allowing seamless DVR integration of OTA and satellite based programming. It also reduces the bandwidth needed by D* by allowing the "non-major network" locals and subs to be gathered OTA, and not put on the birds.

This is why I left cable completely. Previously, I had D* only in the basement for Sunday Ticket.

I'm willing to pay a slight premium to have OTA capable HD DVRs from D*. I can concede that the non-DVR IRDs are not as critical, since you can use the HDTVs tuner. But, even that is an issue for early adopters that have HD monitors, without ATSC tuners.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Where are all the people who just a week ago were telling us how great the introduction of the HR21 was because all it did was give D* customers more choices????


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

jwd45244 said:


> You can by HR20s here: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=02&CAT=&PROD=HR20


Value Electronics has them as well


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> Where are all the people who just a week ago were telling us how great the introduction of the HR21 was because all it did was give D* customers more choices????


They are now telling us we are collateral damage.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

iceburg02 said:


> If you won't be able to record it, by definition you're "deprived" of something. And that something appears to be a service that's valuable to some (including me).





Jaysv said:


> I can't believe I just read that posted in forum dedicated to a DVR. If we wanted to watch it live we wouldn't have a DVR in the first place.


And the point you're missing is that you CAN STILL RECORD OTA. You can do it today with the HR20 and you'll be able to do it tomorrow with the HR20.

Even if D* stops distributing the HR20 today, you'll STILL be able to get one from any of a number of third party suppliers (and ebay and craigslist, etc.) for SEVERAL years. Past the point of anyone's current commitment. So, if recording OTA is that important to you and if it remains that important 2 years from now, you'll be able to find another provider without penalty.

Nobody is coming to your house to take your HR20. D* is not sending out an upgrade tomorrow that disable's the usability of the HR20's. The sky is not falling.

They came out with a different box and everyone acts like the sky is falling.

As I pointed out in another thread, what if the order would have been reversed? What if they would have had the HR21 all along (and everyone *****ing about not having OTA) and then recently came out with the HR20 that allows OTA?

Everyone here complaining would be rejoicing over the fact that there's 2 different boxes for 2 different needs. What's the difference? You'll be able to get the HR20 for years to come.

What's the problem????


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> Where are all the people who just a week ago were telling us how great the introduction of the HR21 was because all it did was give D* customers more choices????


I'm right here. You still have choices. I was in BB yesterday and they had both boxes side by side. That's called a choice.


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> What's the problem????


Read the very first post in this thread...that is the problem.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> And the point you're missing is that you CAN STILL RECORD OTA. You can do it today with the HR20 and you'll be able to do it tomorrow with the HR20.
> 
> Even if D* stops distributing the HR20 today, you'll STILL be able to get one from any of a number of third party suppliers (and ebay and craigslist, etc.) for SEVERAL years. Past the point of anyone's current commitment. So, if recording OTA is that important to you and if it remains that important 2 years from now, you'll be able to find another provider without penalty.
> 
> ...


Aparently the OP didn't get the option....


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Jaysv said:


> Read the very first post in this thread...that is the problem.





houskamp said:


> Aparently the OP didn't get the option....


But he did. He was told he could go to a B&M and purchase any DVR he wanted. Is that not an option? Or is the argument not that people want options, but that they want free options?

As with any business, some things cost more than others. D* is even reducing the likelihood of upgrading and getting ANY DVR for free. Running a business costs money.

The choice/option for either DVR is still there.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> But he did. He was told he could go to a B&M and purchase any DVR he wanted. Is that not an option? Or is the argument not that people want options, but that they want free options?
> 
> As with any business, some things cost more than others. D* is even reducing the likelihood of upgrading and getting ANY DVR for free. Running a business costs money.
> 
> The choice/option for either DVR is still there.


IF and beginning to look like a big if they have them.... :nono2:


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

jwd45244 said:


> If you have an OTA antenna, you can hook that up to your TV and watch it to your heart's content. If you have an HR21, you can watch and record satellite delivered content but not record OTA. (you can still watch it if it is hooked into your TV) With an HR20 you can watch and record both satellite and OTA content.
> 
> What about any of the above limits your ability to watch OTA content?


Not being home is a limit. IMHO, if D* want's to come out with a HR21 with no ATSC that's great. But they should price the HR21 cheaper then the HR20, maybe $199 vs. $299 and keep the HR20 available for people that need or want it. The HR21 breaks all the ROT on consumer electronics, a newer version of a product that removes functionality and doesn't reduce its price.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

RAD said:


> Not being home is a limit. IMHO, if D* want's to come out with a HR21 with no ATSC that's great. But they should price the HR21 cheaper then the HR20, maybe $199 vs. $299 and keep the HR20 available for people that need or want it. The HR21 breaks all the ROT on consumer electronics, a newer version of a product that removes functionality and doesn't reduce its price.


It's all about cost. If they were going to drop the price to $199 the would have just left it at $299 with the OTA tuners.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

houskamp said:


> IF and beginning to look like a big if they have them.... :nono2:


What's a big IF?

I can provide links right now to many places that have the HR20. Do you need me to provide them?

I can guarantee you that I'll be able to provide links to them next year too.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

BMoreRavens said:


> It's all about cost. If they were going to drop the price to $199 the would have just left it at $299 with the OTA tuners.


Maybe, but what's one of the biggest b*tches you hear from people wanting to switch to D*, I don't want to pay $299 for a HD DVR. So you bring out the HR21 as the option and maybe you pick up a few more subs with the lower price.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

tonyquan said:


> Best thing I heard in the whole ordeal: the retention rep saying "it doesn't make sense, shouldn't newer hardware have more features, not cut features?"


+1

Honestly, and please don't take offense, but I'm not sure why people are surprised by this. I, as many others on this board, have been HUGE proponents of DTV including DLB in their new HDDVR's since so many of us considered this a must have feature. Obviously those requests have fallen on deaf ears, and IMO its due to the costs of implementing such a feature.

DTV is making decisions based on what they feel is their best business model and what the customers they WANT to keep will put up with when it comes to their service while they are able to maximize profits. If the whole debacle with DLB teaches us anything, its that DTV is only worried about the bottom line and doesn't care about the smaller populations of customers that want things like DLB, OTA, etc. Right now, DTV is in the drivers seat because of their larger HD offering and that is why they have the ability to do things of this nature. People are willing to put up with all of their other crap so that they can enjoy HD. Until the competition steps up and offers a viable alternative, this is the way its going to be for awhile. :nono2:


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> I'm right here. You still have choices. I was in BB yesterday and they had both boxes side by side. That's called a choice.


No that's called an inconvienence of having to buy the receiver retail because D* is too fvcking stupid to simply provide the same choice to their customers that Best Buy does.

Why is it so hard for D* to figure out that providing their customers a choice is a good thing?

It's just pure stupidity on D*'s part. Imagine if Best Buy packaged all of their HR20's and HR21's in identical boxes just labeled as "DirecTV HD DVR", and told their customers that they just had take their chances that the one that they bought would be the one that they wanted? No sane retailer would ever do something like that, and I'm amazed at all the D* apologists who act like there's nothing wrong with D* stupidly doing that very thing.


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## christo76 (Sep 12, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> But he did. He was told he could go to a B&M and purchase any DVR he wanted. Is that not an option? Or is the argument not that people want options, but that they want free options?
> 
> As with any business, some things cost more than others. D* is even reducing the likelihood of upgrading and getting ANY DVR for free. Running a business costs money.
> 
> The choice/option for either DVR is still there.


Apparently you didn't read how many people have gone to several stores and they no longer stocked the HR20.

We don't know how long the stock of HR20's will last. And if it does come down to ebay/craigslist, how many of those will be legal to sell? Considering most were done on a lease.

As for online retailers, once again it comes down to how long will they be available.

Initially it appeared that both would continue to be made, now it is seeming that is not true.

I need ota, and was looking to add a second HDTV and HR20 around xmas time. Will I be able to get one? will I have to pay $300-$400-$500-more to get one? If so, I will likely just get an HR10 and deal without the new HD channels.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> the poll indicates that a majority of members of this forum want/need OTA.
> 
> The need for OTA for the general public is quite a bit less. Of the 15 households that I know have D* (friends and family), none of them use OTA.
> 
> I'm sure D* has statistics of some kind regarding how many people use the OTA capabilities of the HR20 and my guess is those numbers aren't even close to the results of this forums poll.


Many people that I know who switched to the HR 20 and 5lnb dish had the OTA antennas REMOVED by D* when the original install was done, since they were told that with locals they no longer needed their outdoor antenna, and that the HR20 would not support it.

Now that we have OTA each and every one of those folks who had their OTA antennas removed by D* now wants them back, since as has been mentioned, many channels are not carried by OTA. In some cases, like mine I get another set of channels from a second TV market (I sit right on the border of two markets) with different programming during different times of the day.

My OTA works like a charm. I typically record OTA since I don't get the rain fade on my OTA signal and I have more HD channels than ever.

My second box is a Tivo HD box connected to my basic cable and my OTA. If D* can't get me a box with OTA for future expansion of my system, looks like I'll stick with the OTA and TiVo, with basic cable to offer me non-HD solutions for those times that I want to watch TNT and others.


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

RAD said:


> Maybe, but what's one of the biggest b*tches you hear from people wanting to switch to D*, I don't want to pay $299 for a HD DVR. So you bring out the HR21 as the option and maybe you pick up a few more subs with the lower price.


The HR20 and HR21 are the SAME price both $299 for a lease upgrade.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> What's a big IF?
> 
> I can provide links right now to many places that have the HR20. Do you need me to provide them?
> 
> I can guarantee you that I'll be able to provide links to them next year too.


Name one good reason why anyone should have to go to an outside retailer to get one instead of specifying it on their D* install order.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Kansas Zephyr said:


> The HR20 and HR21 are the SAME price both $299 for a lease upgrade.


I know, that's why I said in the prior response to drop the HR21 to $199, leave the HR20 at $299.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

christo76 said:


> Apparently you didn't read how many people have gone to several stores and they no longer stocked the HR20.


Read some of them.

I also know that when I went to the grocery store last night, they were out of Milk. I'm not freaking out over it. I'm not worried my kids will die of thirst. I went to another store and got it. If I had to, I would have bought it online.

HR20's will be available somewhere. Some just don't like the inconvenience. It's not about choice (which is the argument being made), it's about inconvenience. Not everything in life is convenient, unfortunately.

Come next March, when I get my new HDTV for the living room, if someone in Dallas wants an HR20 and can't find one, they're welcome to come get mine and I'll take their HR21 in return.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> Name one good reason why anyone should have to go to an outside retailer to get one instead of specifying it on their D* install order.


I see you're late to the argument. That wasn't the point of that post. The point was answering someone's comment "If they can be found". My post was referring to the point that they can be found - in numerous places.

Now, if you want to quote me on something that pertains to your question, I'll do my best to answer.


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

christo76 said:


> Apparently you didn't read how many people have gone to several stores and they no longer stocked the HR20.
> 
> We don't know how long the stock of HR20's will last. And if it does come down to ebay/craigslist, how many of those will be legal to sell? Considering most were done on a lease.
> 
> ...


My costco had 35 hr20-700 sitting out in the open. For $269 may pick one up just to have Half were for the h20 but atleast 16 boxes of the hr20


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

rlgold88 said:


> My costco had 35 hr20-700 sitting out in the open. For $269 may pick one up just to have


I don't know if they keep records anymore, but it used to be you'd get hit with a nasty fee if you didn't activate a receiver in a given period of time.

On another note, I was in a Best Buy today (never a pleasant experience) and I stopped by the DVRs...they had none in stock. I asked the guy there if they were getting any HR20s in and he said that's been discontinued there's a new one coming out and it's much better...they should have it in a week.

This was just a kid working at the Best Buy though...so take it for what it's worth (and what you paid for it).


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Read some of them.
> 
> I also know that when I went to the grocery store last night, they were out of Milk. I'm not freaking out over it. I'm not worried my kids will die of thirst. I went to another store and got it. If I had to, I would have bought it online.
> 
> ...


Yep read some of them.. not only are they out of stock the tags on the shelf and order codes have been removed...


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## wmj5 (Aug 26, 2007)

directv over 12 yrs. the way I look at it is if you don't want ota just let the hookup sit there, its not in the way but the day that I can't get it if I owe a commitment I'll just pay it off and go my marry way.


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## dcscot (Feb 12, 2007)

rlgold88 said:


> My costco had 35 hr20-700 sitting out in the open. For $269 may pick one up just to have


I was not planning on adding another HR20 for while, I am not happy about potentially having to go get one early, just to make sure that I can still have OTA. Here in Austin, OTA is a huge benefit due to all of the reasons already stated.


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I don't know if they keep records anymore, but it used to be you'd get hit with a nasty fee if you didn't activate a receiver in a given period of time.
> 
> On another note, I was in a Best Buy today (never a pleasant experience) and I stopped by the DVRs...they had none in stock. I asked the guy there if they were getting any HR20s in and he said that's been discontinued there's a new one coming out and it's much better...they should have it in a week.
> 
> This was just a kid working at the Best Buy though...so take it for what it's worth (and what you paid for it).


I would surely activate it I have 3hr20 whats another 5 bucks for the 4th. I will have to run some cable from the zinwell though.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Come next March, when I get my new HDTV for the living room, if someone in Dallas wants an HR20 and can't find one, they're welcome to come get mine and I'll take their HR21 in return.


I get the part if you have a new HDTV, it likely has a better built-in OTA. I don't get why you would want a HR21? Other than probably wanting to help out others. Is there anything in it for you to take a HR21? I read the HR21 review, and I can grasp there is any advantage over HR20. I must have missed something.


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

dcscot said:


> I was not planning on adding another HR20 for while, I am not happy about potentially having to go get one early, just to make sure that I can still have OTA. Here in Austin, OTA is a huge benefit due to all of the reasons already stated.


Yeah I understand. But is it a fact that they are not making and discontinuing the boxes that have Ota


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Dusty said:


> I get the part if you have a new HDTV, it likely has a better built-in OTA. I don't get why you would want a HR21? Other than probably wanting to help out others. Is there anything in it for you to take a HR21? I read the HR21 review, and I can grasp there is any advantage over HR20. I must have missed something.


I don't use OTA at all. I get all the HD I need through D*. So, if I have an HR20 and I'm not using it fully, but someone else could, I'd be happy to switch with them.

I also like the black box better. Heck, I might switch my current HR20 with someone (is it even possible?), but I like having the 700 for CE purposes.


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## 69hokie (Sep 23, 2006)

What better way for D* to coerce local broadcasters to give D* their local feeds than to eliminate the convenience of OTA being included within the guide and recording capability as a option for D* subscribers. We customers are being used as leverage and being deprived of something we want....a really good negotiating strategy with the local broadcasters, but not a very customer friendly strategy. This kind of inconsiderate treatment of customers has a way of coming back around. Forgive me if I am kind of grumpy today after last night's game with BC!!


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## CousCous (Sep 17, 2006)

Telling people to "just plug the antenna into your tv for ota" defeats the purpose of DVR. Some people like to record the shows on the subchannels.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

BMoreRavens said:


> It's all about cost. If they were going to drop the price to $199 the would have just left it at $299 with the OTA tuners.


OK, I agree. Then don't buy it. Vote with your wallet. If you were told that you were supposed to get and HR20 and you got a 21, don't take it. I am agreeing with everyone who likes the 20s but ranting about how mean or terrible DTV is pointless. IF OTA is that important to people, let DTV know.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rlgold88 said:


> Yeah I understand. But is it a fact that they are not making and discontinuing the boxes that have Ota


Wrong. This is becoming an urban legend. :beatdeadhorse:

Discussed a million times, and your "*facts*" are incorrect. The HR20-100 is very much still in manufacturing and availability. As far as what gets shipped for an install, that's based on regional supplies in stock at the time (and stock inventories change regularly as well).

If you insist on an OTA unit, you'll get one - tell the installer, and have him come back if he doesn't have one on his truck.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> IF OTA is that important to people, let DTV know.


How? are we supposed to call and cancel now or wait till after the fact? hope D* is reading this and decides to keep this option.. 
Also I have to belive there are about the same % that will never use DOD, mediashare, active, ppv.... should they drop them too?
Just wish D* would issue and official press release on this and end the guessing..


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

houskamp said:


> How? are we supposed to call and cancel now or wait till after the fact? hope D* is reading this and decides to keep this option..
> Also I have to belive there are about the same % that will never use DOD, mediashare, active, ppv.... should they drop them too?
> Just wish D* would issue and official press release on this and end the guessing..


They are not reading this. But you ask how? Send a registered letter the the DirecTV Office of the President.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

PennHORN said:


> Sorry, I am friggin not going to "relax" as some corporate nimrod either through sheer incompetence or greed is going to deprive me of critical functionality that is already present. I wouldn't have signed up with D* if I knew OTA integration was being phased out. TV is my main form of entertainment and I have invested a lot of money in my setup as have others. This after all a friggin board devoted to TV. Would you say the same thing on a sports message board.


My sentiments exactly....although I don't want to blow a gasket....if I get too steamed, I start behaving poorly, and it ain't pretty.

I *love* the corporate reference in your first sentence...it nearly put me on the floor...I needed that on an otherwise bleak forum day. Thankyou!


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Wrong. This is becoming an urban legend. :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> Discussed a million times, and your "*facts*" are incorrect. The HR20-100 is very much still in manufacturing and availability. As far as what gets shipped for an install, that's based on regional supplies in stock at the time (and stock inventories change regularly as well).
> 
> If you insist on an OTA unit, you'll get one - tell the installer, and have him come back if he doesn't have one on his truck.


Sure...and take another day off work? Even if your assertion is correct about them giving you an OTA capable replacement, just how many times are we supposed to take off work in order to accomplish the simplest of tasks:

1. Let me order the right receiver in the first place, and bring the damn thing when your supposed to.

Stop defending the indefensible, it just compromises credibility.


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Wrong. This is becoming an urban legend. :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> Discussed a million times, and your "*facts*" are incorrect. The HR20-100 is very much still in manufacturing and availability. As far as what gets shipped for an install, that's based on regional supplies in stock at the time (and stock inventories change regularly as well).
> 
> If you insist on an OTA unit, you'll get one - tell the installer, and have him come back if he doesn't have one on his truck.


Thats what I thought because I seen numerous threads saying they still are being manufactured (hr20-100) that is why I asked the ? In reading this thread last two pages one was to think that ota is dead with D* which is not the case.

I was just asking the Question. sorry


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> What's a big IF?
> 
> I can provide links right now to many places that have the HR20. Do you need me to provide them?
> 
> I can guarantee you that I'll be able to provide links to them next year too.


Well if they are that readily available, then it should be the simplest of matters for D* to ask you what you want when you order and then actually send you what you asked for.

(instead of sending the customer on a wild goose chase trying to find the receiver that D* should have had in the first place.)

...and you can't guarantee you'll still be on the planet tomorrow (neither can anyone else, including me), so boasting about future availability has no credibility whatsoever.

Let's not forget what started all this:

A customer ordered *specifically* a D* HD-DVR *with OTA*. They told him that is what he would get. They sent him, *with no notification* a different receiver with *no OTA*

Maybe you are accepting of this bait and switch/unethical/incompetent service (take your pick according to what you think actually happened), but many of us are not....and we aren't going to be quiet about it.


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## vansmack (Aug 14, 2006)

I don't use OTA but I'm willing to change my vote if:

(1) Those of you that don't use DLB and voted against it change your votes
and
(2) Those of you that don't use the 50 SL limit change your vote for those that would like more than 50 SL options


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Now that is good !

(BTW, I voted your way in both cases)


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

No big deal. The posts in this thread could easily have led anyone to believe the HR-20s were going away.

As I posted before, I don't think they are. But that's all the MORE reason to take a proactive approach in the supply chain management so what happened to the OP doesn't happen to many more, which would then only fuel more fire to the rumor that they're being discontinued.

That's all I'm saying. I have 2 HR20s and no LiLs, so if one tanked and a replacement HR-21 was sent to me, I can't see how I'd be happy with that.



rlgold88 said:


> Thats what I thought because I seen numerous threads saying they still are being manufactured (hr20-100) that is why I asked the ? In reading this thread last two pages one was to think that ota is dead with D* which is not the case.
> 
> I was just asking the Question. sorry


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

Canis Lupus said:


> No big deal. The posts in this thread could easily have led anyone to believe the HR-20s were going away.
> 
> As I posted before, I don't think they are. But that's all the MORE reason to take a proactive approach in the supply chain management so what happened to the OP doesn't happen to many more, which would then only fuel more fire to the rumor that they're being discontinued.
> 
> That's all I'm saying. I have 2 HR20s and no LiLs, so if one tanked and a replacement HR-21 was sent to me, I can't see how I'd be happy with that.


I Agree, well said


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

christo76 said:


> Apparently you didn't read how many people have gone to several stores and they no longer stocked the HR20.
> 
> We don't know how long the stock of HR20's will last. And if it does come down to ebay/craigslist, how many of those will be legal to sell? Considering most were done on a lease.
> 
> ...


I've read this entire thread now and I've not seen this theory thrown out there so I will throw it out.

HR20-700, HR21-700... Notice anything in common? Yup, both -700, both the same manufacturer. Did anyone stop to think that maybe Pace slowed down on making HR20's so they could make enough HR21's for an initial supply? This would appear to the masses as a possible discontinuing of HR20's because existing stock dwindled while mostly HR21's were made so that they'd have enough for an initial shipment. I bet no one thought about that...

And no christo76, I wasn't singling you out. Your post was just perfect for me to use to throw my theory out there.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> I've read this entire thread now and I've not seen this theory thrown out there so I will throw it out.
> 
> HR20-700, HR21-700... Notice anything in common? Yup, both -700, both the same manufacturer. Did anyone stop to think that maybe Pace slowed down on making HR20's so they could make enough HR21's for an initial supply? This would appear to the masses as a possible discontinuing of HR20's because existing stock dwindled while mostly HR21's were made so that they'd have enough for an initial shipment. I bet no one thought about that...
> 
> And no christo76, I wasn't singling you out. Your post was just perfect for me to use to throw my theory out there.


Whatever theory is correct, it is absolutely unacceptable for a customer to order one receiver and without notice, send him a different one that does not have the same functionality. This *is* what happened.

All else is a combination of speculation by forum members, and misinformation provided by some CSRs and their supervisors (if you read the associated threads)

We don't know what D* is doing, other than really screwing up some orders.

The rank incompetence or indifference involved in this particular snafu is stunning from a company that I previously had a very high regard for.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> If you have an OTA antenna, you can hook that up to your TV and watch it to your heart's content. If you have an HR21, you can watch and record satellite delivered content but not record OTA. (you can still watch it if it is hooked into your TV) With an HR20 you can watch and record both satellite and OTA content.
> 
> What about any of the above limits your ability to watch OTA content?


Ah, let's see. I have several DVRs that are used to shift time. That enables me to see content when I am not home or am busy or am watching another program.

Taking the OTA out of the DVR I use as main provider of TV watching means I can only watch OTA live.

Gee, that sounds like a limit to me that I don't have for other sources.

You are in a DVR forum and you are saying to watch it live????


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

hasan said:


> Whatever theory is correct, it is absolutely unacceptable for a customer to order one receiver and without notice, send him a different one that does not have the same functionality. This *is* what happened.


My post had nothing to do with that. My post was addressing what people seem to assume is a discontinuing of the HR20.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

hasan said:


> Stop defending the indefensible, it just compromises credibility.


We're stating the facts on how the system works - total credibility, my friend - we're not *defending* anything. I don't know what bug is up some butts here, but this has been rehashed so many times we all want to puke. :barf:

No one is twisting anyone's arm to do anything. If people want something, they do do what it takes to get it. Unfortunately, sometimes that means an inconvenience. I spend plenty of time standing in line - don't like it - but that's what it takes sometimes.

If someone don't want to pay the price it takes to get what you want, just don't do it. If OTA is all that important, people will do it. Simple enough. Is it fair.....not much is these days....but it is what it is....right or wrong....this is the way it works.

OTA is a live and well.......the sky is not falling........and the HD DVR life is good.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> Again, I agree. But what business is DTV in? The are not in the OTA content business.


But they HAVE been for several years. Way before the HR20.

They set themselves in that business by adding OTA locals in guide data with the first first HD receivers they offered. That is what 5 or 6 years ago?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

RunnerFL said:


> My post had nothing to do with that. My post was addressing what people seem to assume is a discontinuing of the HR20.


Or as some of us call it..."The Neverending Story". :eek2:


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

...and that is your idea of "customer service"....no wonder we have problems.

You recommended waiting for the wrong box to come, then cancelling and starting over. You didn't answer my question: how many days are we supposed to take off work in order to get the receiver we were told we were getting in the first place?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Or as some of us call it..."The Neverending Story". :eek2:


bwhahahahaha, so true!


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> Ah, let's see. I have several DVRs that are used to shift time. That enables me to see content when I am not home or am busy or am watching another program.
> 
> Taking the OTA out of the DVR I use as main provider of TV watching means I can only watch OTA live.
> 
> ...


Please, I like and use the OTA stuff in both of my HR20s and my H20. I wish that DTV had not dropped OTA out of the H21 / HR21. But at the end of the end of the day it is a very nice feature that is hard to support and may or may not add to their revenue.. There are plenty of very inexpensive ways to DVR OTA content. Are they harder that just using a HR20, yes, but they exist.

Also, I have yet to see someone from DTV at my door making me give up my HR20s

Please, I am not against OTA I am way for it. But the only way to get DTV or any company to change is to vote with your wallet.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Read some of them.
> 
> I also know that when I went to the grocery store last night, they were out of Milk. I'm not freaking out over it. I'm not worried my kids will die of thirst. I went to another store and got it. If I had to, I would have bought it online.


You frequent a grocery store that is out of milk when there is no emergency (weather, fires, etc) going on? And you think that is normal? Please tell me you made that analogy up.

That grocery store would never see my business again if they were out of something as easy to obtain and as much a commodity as milk....

Or do you live in Russia.

You don't care about OTA so you don't care. Don't tell us that want or need OTA how to feel. It is presumptious at the very least.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> They are not reading this. But you ask how? Send a registered letter the the DirecTV Office of the President.


If DirecTV doesn't read this forum, then the CEs and all the other stuff like first looks and adjustments to software, testing of hardware, etc., must be a figment of my imagination.

Why are you arguing so hard? You have nothing in this conversation. You don't care if you have OTA and you are not getting a price break from DirecTV to not have it.

So WHY DO YOU CARE????


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> Please, I like and use the OTA stuff in both of my HR20s and my H20. I wish that DTV had not dropped OTA out of the H21 / HR21. But at the end of the end of the day it is a very nice feature that is hard to support and may or may not add to their revenue.. There are plenty of very expensive ways to DVR OTA content. Are they harder that just using a HR20, yes, but they exist.
> 
> Also, I have yet to see someone from DTV at my door making me give up my HR20s
> 
> Please, I am not against OTA I am way for it. But the only way to get DTV or any company to change is to vote with your wallet.


Did you really mean "there are plenty of very expensive ways to DVR OTA content.."?

That hardly sounds as a rallying point for D* customers who want OTA retained. If you intended to say "inexpensive", that seems way wrong to me....if you want HD DVR...there's very little out there that isn't either prohibitively expensive and/or requiring a subscription on top of it.

The issue isn't having to give up an HR20, it is ordering an HR20 and getting an HR21...not to mention what happens if our dearly loved HR20 dies and they send an HR21 as a replacement. *NOT ACCEPTABLE*

Voting with a wallet is a great idea if there are alternatives...and if you can't make the provider listen. In rural areas there is no cable or fios ....that leaves E*, plus going through the aggravation of fighting the 2 year contract business.

All in all, we don't know what D* is going to do. What we do know is they really mishandled the customer who started this thread.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

hasan said:


> ...and that is your idea of "customer service"....no wonder we have problems.
> 
> You recommended waiting for the wrong box to come, then cancelling and starting over. You didn't answer my question: how many days are we supposed to take off work in order to get the receiver we were told we were getting in the first place?


There are several ways to skin a cat sir.

I have never had any trouble having an adult dialog with a CSR to specify *exactly* which receiver I expected to receive, and furthermore indicated that I expected a call from the installer prior to coming to the home to confirm the specific device. They will usually tell you they cannot "guarantee" anything, but having the communication with the installer firm directly has always resolved any potential variations on a *proactive* basis.

Guess what...*we never *had a problem and the proper device always was installed. Yes....that's great customer service. It's all about the approach.

Since everyone now understands its usually a process of "what's in the truck that day" or "what's in the warehouse at this time", and this has been explained 100 times before, perhaps this may lead folks to take something other than a "wait and see" or "shucks that's not what I was hoping for (when they show up)" approach. This is not new - it's been that way for quite some time, and not just at D*TV. It works the exact same way at Compcrap and Dish. I've had personal friends deal with the exact same scenarios regarding specific equipment installations, especially HD DVR's.

I never assume *any* company is at my beckoned call to do things exactly the way I want anytime, anyplace, anywhere. On the other hand, when I work *with* a company to help them serve me the way I expect, my success rate is about 100%.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> Please, I am not against OTA I am way for it. But the only way to get DTV or any company to change is to vote with your wallet.


How do you vote with your wallet when you are not currently buying anything? Meanwhile, DirecTV goes down a path that makes them less viable (or less of a good thing for me) in a year or two.

This is not a daily purchase that we can adjust our purchasing on a daily basis.

After your reply I understand even LESS why you are posting the things you are posting. Why DEFEND a poor decision by DirecTV.

I am still predicting the end of the HR20 sooner than later. I KNOW that in supply chain management it is FAR more expensive than the savings they are getting by not including an OTA tuner to SUPPORT the multiple boxes with and without OTA.

Either the mangement at DirecTV are complete idiots or we are seeing their plans in operation.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We're stating the facts on how the system works - total credibility, my friend - we're not *defending* anything. I don't know what bug is up some butts here, but this has been rehashed so many times we all want to puke. :barf:


Of course you are. You are defending D*'s idiotic normal ordering and installation procedures which don't give the customer a way to insure that they get an HR20 instead of a HR21.

The bug up peoples buts is that if any retailer tried to pull sh!t like that, (forcing customers to accept the delivery on a $300 purchase of a random selection of two unequal products), nobody would accept it, so stop making excuses for and defending D*'s indefensible procedures and policies, because that is exactly what you are doing.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tonyd79 said:


> After your reply I understand even LESS why you are posting the things you are posting. Why DEFEND a poor decision by DirecTV.


Many here are missing the whole point. There *is no decision * by DirecTV regarding discontinued support of OTA, so there's nothing "poor" about it, nor nothing to "defend" either.

Fact - the HR20-700 DVR (OTA enabled) came out in September 2006.

Fact - the HR20-100 HD DVR came our about 4-5 months later.

Fact, DirecTV doesn't not need 2 models with the same capabilities - so it would be a smart business decision to narrow it down to 1 model (most likely the newer -100). That means *nothing* in terms of future support of OTA, and peopel are plain reading way too much into the reduced availability of the -700 model. Those are no longer in production and supplies won't last forever. The -100 model is still in production and more available.

They did the exact same thing with the H20-600 and later H20-100 HD receivers. You are hard pressed to find the -600 model, but the -100 model is still out there.

There's also nothing to prevent them from coming out with new OTA-enabled models in the future to subplant the current ones. Speculate away on that idea.

Bottom line - someone can have their cake and eat it too with either OTA or non OTA DVR's and receivers. Light the candles, make a wish, and eat away.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

cartrivision said:


> Of course you are. You are defending D*'s idiotic normal ordering and installation procedures which don't give the customer a way to insure that they get an HR20 instead of a HR21. The bug up peoples buts is that if any retailer tried to pull sh!t like that, (forcing customers to accept the delivery on a $300 purchase of a random selection of two unequal products), nobody would accept it, so stop making excuses for and defending D*'s indefensible procedures and policies, because that is exactly what you are doing.


     

There's nothing to defend. No one *forces *anyone to accept anything. 

...and by the way.....sending out the most recent HD receiver and DVR equipment to satisfy public needs is a brilliant idea, not a poor one. If people kept getting aged hardware, then we'd have crybabies here saying "why can't I get some of the newer equipment". This especially holds true when 80% of the customer base doesn't use or could care less about OTA anyway. Apparently they would like to err on the side of providing the latest and greatest based on the majority of the marketplace expectations - that makes them really smart.


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> How do you vote with your wallet when you are not currently buying anything? Meanwhile, DirecTV goes down a path that makes them less viable (or less of a good thing for me) in a year or two.
> 
> This is not a daily purchase that we can adjust our purchasing on a daily basis.
> 
> ...


So here we go again do you know for a fact that they discontinuid hr20-100? If so what is your source. I myself want ota for just in case senerious, but if you know for sure Maybe I will goto costco and buy 2 hr20-700 instaed of one as I said in a previuos post.

If D* is getting rid of ota I wish they would come out and say it. Please post if they have.


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

Don't expect to see anything official about this from Directv.

Time will tell...my guess is one side or the other is going to look foolish...


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## vaguy (Aug 7, 2007)

I think the theory is that for emergency purposes, your HDTV will have an ATSC receiver so why bother putting one in the STB. Of course, I bought a bleeding edge Sony GWIII 4 years ago (which has no ATSC tuner). And the other fault in D's theory is my need for the sub-channels and local PBS, neither of which they carry. I saw the writing on the wall with the H21/HR21 in the summer and quickly signed up for equipment upgrades as soon as D10 reached orbit. Luckily, I got the H20/HR20.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

rlgold88 said:


> So here we go again do you know for a fact that they discontinuid hr20-100? If so what is your source. I myself want ota for just in case senerious, but if you know for sure Maybe I will goto costco and buy 2 hr20-700 instaed of one as I said in a previuos post.
> 
> If D* is getting rid of ota I wish they would come out and say it. Please post if they have.


You really don't think they are going to advertise that, at this point, do you?

No one knows, maybe not even D*. It is a fact that the non-OTA receivers are cheaper to produce/support...significantly so. Where it goes from there, is very uncertain.

It would be nice if they simply said they were going to continue to support OTA in some of their machines for the forseeable future, but they will no longer be a priority, in that the majority of customers do not require OTA.

(just suggested wording, mind you)


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

Is the hr21 the first dvr that does not have ota possibilities that D* uses? I had the ultimate dvr pretty sure that had ota. 

Just curios if this is the first?


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

rlgold88 said:


> Is the hr21 the first dvr that does not have ota possibilities that D* uses? I had the ultimate dvr pretty sure that had ota.
> 
> Just curios if this is the first?


Yes it is the first HD DVR to not have OTA tuners.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Just for the record, the old SD DirecTIVO's only had an OTA pass through, they couldn't receive or record OTA. So an OTA HD tuner is something that's been included on previous HD DVR's, but is something I can see being phased out in markets where DirecTV offers the primary channel for the HD LiL's. I'd expect and hope that the HR20's are offered in markets without HD LiL's.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Wrong. This is becoming an urban legend. :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> Discussed a million times, and your "*facts*" are incorrect. The HR20-100 is very much still in manufacturing and availability. As far as what gets shipped for an install, that's based on regional supplies in stock at the time (and stock inventories change regularly as well).
> 
> If you insist on an OTA unit, you'll get one - tell the installer, and have him come back if he doesn't have one on his truck.


Dare I ask how you can be so assertive, given that people are indicating that they asked for an HR20 and didn't get one?

And how can you guarantee? Do you know HR20s will be flowing a year from now? Does D* even know such a thing?

Are you just going on faith or do you know something we don't?


----------



## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

BMoreRavens said:


> Yes it is the first HD DVR to not have OTA tuners.


On D*.

If you get a Comcast HD DVR it doesn't have OTA tuners. However, if you use a Tivo Series 3 or even the cheaper TiVo HD, it does have OTA tuners and separate inputs for it!


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

flipptyfloppity said:


> On D*.
> 
> If you get a Comcast HD DVR it doesn't have OTA tuners. However, if you use a Tivo Series 3 or even the cheaper TiVo HD, it does have OTA tuners and separate inputs for it!


We were only talking about DirecTV.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Some thoughts:
1) Assembly lines are run for a few weeks at full speed to meet the customer's (DIRECTV) order. Pace can take the same assembly lines and make both HR20s one month and HR21s the next month. 
2) That can lead to interesting supply issues as an order is filled.
3) A good friend reminded me that BB, CC, big block electronics stores want the very latest model out there. So *they* might prefer hr21 over the HR20 (until purchaser preferences show up). But other sources remain for the HR20. And will until DIRECTV stops ordering them from Pace or Thomson.
4) DIRECTV will keep an eye on this. You can be VERY sure of that. 
5) There are always future possibilities. The sky is not falling, though it might be partly cloudy in certain locations from time to time.

Disclaimers: I want OTA on at least a few locations within my house. OTA means a DVR OTA, not just hooking it up to my TV. (Actually, all TV viewing means a good DVR.)
I understand there are significant financial reasons for DIRECTV to serve as many people as possible without OTA. Many people don't need it or understand it--yet. My hope is DIRECTV continues to realize the value of eliminating FUD but making a statement about this issue.

Cheers,
Tom


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

hasan said:


> Maybe you are accepting of this bait and switch/unethical/incompetent service (take your pick according to what you think actually happened), but many of us are not....and we aren't going to be quiet about it.


Nope, I wouldn't be accepting of it. I would have refused it, called D* and told them to send another (re-schedule). I wouldn't, however, think the world as we know it was ending.


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

hasan said:


> Whatever theory is correct, it is absolutely unacceptable for a customer to order one receiver and without notice, send him a different one that does not have the same functionality. This *is* what happened.


I hear ya. I ordered a pepperoni pizza the other night and they showed up with just cheese. I accepted it and called the next day to complain. They didn't want to give me another pepperoni pizza that they had originally promised me. I really lit up the Pizza Hut forum for that one.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

flipptyfloppity said:


> Dare I ask how you can be so assertive, given that people are indicating that they asked for an HR20 and didn't get one?
> 
> And how can you guarantee? Do you know HR20s will be flowing a year from now? Does D* even know such a thing?
> 
> Are you just going on faith or do you know something we don't?


1) Supply and Demand - both vary, as they do for any HD equipment provider. This is not unique to D*TV.

2) Can you or anyone else guarantee it will not support OTA a year from now?

3) It would not be at all farfetched to think D*TV knows their business and equipment intentions a year (or more) in advance, especially since they sing contractual agreements with the manufacturers for various lengths of time.

4) Faith and some internal information, but that doesn't matter. See # 1- #3 for what matters.

So.......don't worry.....be happy....


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

spartanstew said:


> I hear ya. I ordered a pepperoni pizza the other night and they showed up with just cheese. I accepted it and called the next day to complain. They didn't want to give me another pepperoni pizza that they had originally promised me. I really lit up the Pizza Hut forum for that one.


:lol: !rolling :rolling:


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I hear ya. I ordered a pepperoni pizza the other night and they showed up with just cheese. I accepted it and called the next day to complain. They didn't want to give me another pepperoni pizza that they had originally promised me. I really lit up the Pizza Hut forum for that one.


but what if every pizza they sent you for the next 2 years was that way?


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

hasan said:


> Did you really mean "there are plenty of very expensive ways to DVR OTA content.."?
> 
> That hardly sounds as a rallying point for D* customers who want OTA retained. If you intended to say "inexpensive", that seems way wrong to me....if you want HD DVR...there's very little out there that isn't either prohibitively expensive and/or requiring a subscription on top of it.
> 
> ...


i mis-typed i mean inexpensive


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

houskamp said:


> but what if every pizza they sent you for the next 2 years was that way?


I'd switch to Domino's or I'd get my pepperoni pizza from a third party vendor.


----------



## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> You frequent a grocery store that is out of milk when there is no emergency (weather, fires, etc) going on? And you think that is normal? Please tell me you made that analogy up.
> 
> That grocery store would never see my business again if they were out of something as easy to obtain and as much a commodity as milk....
> 
> ...


I never said that people don't want or need it. DO NOT put words in my mouth. I am all for OTA. I have it and use it. I merely was trying to point out why DTV may have acted like they did. If you are entitled to an opinion and to express it then so am I!!!!


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## Kansas Zephyr (Jun 30, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> I'd switch to Domino's or I'd get my pepperoni pizza from a third party vendor.


:lol: So would I.

But, hey, I paid $299 for pepperoni pizza access, and I'm committed to buy them for 2 years.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

So...when do you think they'll be cutting off the EPG for OTA...or just charging an extra $5 a month for it?

Nahh...they wouldn't do that.


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

Ken S said:


> So...when do you think they'll be cutting off the EPG for OTA...or just charging an extra $5 a month for it?
> 
> Nahh...they wouldn't do that.


Thats what I would do If I ran D*. Many would go for it. But I would grandfather every body who has it now on their box.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

houskamp said:


> but what if every pizza they sent you for the next 2 years was that way?


I'd stop whining about it to anyone that is unfortunate enough to be around and order from someone else if it bothered me that much.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

:nono2: :nono2: :nono2: :nono2: :nono2: :nono2: :nono2:


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## cariera (Oct 27, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I hear ya. I ordered a pepperoni pizza the other night and they showed up with just cheese. I accepted it and called the next day to complain. They didn't want to give me another pepperoni pizza that they had originally promised me. I really lit up the Pizza Hut forum for that one.


That's weird because I ordered a cheese pizza and got a pepperoni.

Do you want to swap?


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> I hear ya. I ordered a pepperoni pizza the other night and they showed up with just cheese. I accepted it and called the next day to complain. They didn't want to give me another pepperoni pizza that they had originally promised me. I really lit up the Pizza Hut forum for that one.


 they would probably give you a store credit for the difference in the pizza though. even if you'd already eaten the pizza (some people would do that than wait around for another appointment with the pizza delivery guy).

your analogy isn't as sound as you might think.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

tuff bob said:


> your analogy isn't as sound as you might think.


It wasn't meant to be sound.


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## Cyrus (Oct 22, 2006)

This whole thing probably ends up being much ado for nothing. From what I have heard there will be an OTA solution for HR21 (and no, it's not software).


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)




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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 1) Supply and Demand - both vary, as they do for any HD equipment provider. This is not unique to D*TV.
> 
> 2) Can you or anyone else guarantee it will not support OTA a year from now?


If by "it" you mean the HR21, yes, apparently some can guarantee it. Because I asked several times on this board if the HR21 lacked OTA capability or just lacked an OTA input.

I was told unequivocally each time that it lacked all OTA capability. And I was ridiculed for asking the question to this level of specificity.

So unless people on dbstalk are lying or stupid, I can say the HR21 will not be doing OTA a year from now.


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## mdernst (Dec 24, 2005)

hasan said:


> It would be nice if they simply said they were going to continue to support OTA in some of their machines for the forseeable future, but they will no longer be a priority, in that the majority of customers do not require OTA.
> 
> (just suggested wording, mind you)


I went into my local Best Buy yesterday and they had nothing by H21-200s stocked in the way of HD receivers. And they must have had 30 of them.

Then I read through this thread.

I guess (all we can do is guess since we get nothing from DirecTV as far as their future intentions) we know now why the long awaited for "Scan for Off Air Channels" hasn't yet showed up on the HR20. DirecTV's recent actions indicate they have no intention of supporting OTA capabilities in the near future.

I hope I'm wrong as I was one who also assumed that the H21/HR21 was not a "replacement" for the H20/HR20 but rather an alternative for those that did not need OTA functionality.

Is this a deal breaker for me? I'm not sure because I truly hate my local cable provider but should it pan out that DirecTV is going down this path of completely abandoning OTA capabilities in their future boxes and I have to eventually replace my OTA enabled boxes with ones that don't support OTA I will not be happy. 

Mike


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Some thoughts:
> 3) A good friend reminded me that BB, CC, big block electronics stores want the very latest model out there. So *they* might prefer hr21 over the HR20 (until purchaser preferences show up). But other sources remain for the HR20. And will until DIRECTV stops ordering them from Pace or Thomson.
> 
> My hope is DIRECTV continues to realize the value of eliminating FUD but making a statement about this issue.


I agree this is part of the problem. Big boxes like BB & CC order and place product on the shelves without any regard to what is need in specific markets. My BB has nothing but H21's, yet D* doesn't offer locals here yet. Putting H/HR21's in market that have good HD LIL coverage would be fine, but for those in markets without, they are not providing the customer with the products they need.

In addition, since the big boxes will sell more 21's based on market penetration, this could skew the numbers to lead D* to believe that there is less demand for OTA enabled receivers that there really is.

As for D* killing FUD, in my 13 + years as a sub, I can't remember them ever even taking a shot at it.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

flipptyfloppity said:


> So unless people on dbstalk are lying or stupid, I can say the HR21 will not be doing OTA a year from now.


You are correct.

That's not to say there wouldn't be some new box that comes out with it either, perhaps a replacement for the HR20 series that still contains OTA reception in it. D*TV is always working on new toys like that.

It's the doomsday scenarios that are without foundation or validation.


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## gblues (Dec 8, 2005)

Cyrus said:


> This whole thing probably ends up being much ado for nothing. From what I have heard there will be an OTA solution for HR21 (and no, it's not software).


This is what I've been thinking--why not make a USB 2.0 OTA tuner, then sell it for $49 + S&H. And finally use those damn USB ports! Even better, just build in support for the bazillion USB ATSC tuners that are available now for PCs.

As far as failed HR20's, if it's the hard drive just go eSATA. That may be what I have to end up doing if my HR20's hard drive dies because my DMA is nowhere near close to getting HD LiL and I'm not changing shifts just so I can watch my fav shows in HD.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Ironicaly the HR21-700 has the board laid out for OTA tuners, they just aren't in there...


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## shadowbozo (Jan 31, 2007)

MikeR7 said:


> I just thought of something. Maybe this is DIRECTV'S way of helping TIVO stay in business. If you want to record HD OTA's and still keep your HR21 or H21 you could buy a TIVO to do it, for $299 and monthly subscription payments. :nono:


There is another way to do this if you still have your old R10 unit that had OTA with Tivo. Record your OTA stations on the Tivo unit. Just a thought from someone upgrading from the older H10.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

gblues said:


> This is what I've been thinking--why not make a USB 2.0 OTA tuner, then sell it for $49 + S&H. And finally use those damn USB ports! Even better, just build in support for the bazillion USB ATSC tuners that are available now for PCs.
> 
> As far as failed HR20's, if it's the hard drive just go eSATA. That may be what I have to end up doing if my HR20's hard drive dies because my DMA is nowhere near close to getting HD LiL and I'm not changing shifts just so I can watch my fav shows in HD.


Well, you know, there is a company that makes these things already .. even runs under Linux apparently:









link

Something called SageTV has support for this device under Linux
http://www.sagetv.com/requirements.html

I guess in theory there is nothing to prevent DIRECTV from utilizing this in some form .. I just haven't heard anything to this point.


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## pendragn (Aug 20, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> My BB has nothing but H21's, yet D* doesn't offer locals here yet.


My local Best Buy is the same way. They only carry HR21s, but we can't get our local network stations in HD from DirecTV. Normally this wouldn't bother me, but my HR10-250 died and I had a PSP for it. They tried to give me an HR21 in exchange for it. I explained that I wouldn't accept that because I needed OTA support to get my stations and the HR10-250 I had supported that. First the guy tried to convince me the HR21 did OTA. Then he thought maybe I could hook up a USB OTA tuner. Then he tried to convince me I *could* get my local network stations in HD from DirecTV. I told him if we could dial 1-800-Directv and have someone there tell me that then maybe I'd believe it. He made some calls and realized we couldn't. He told me that some of the surrounding stores still had HR20s and I could go there. The nearest was 45 miles away. I told him that that inconvenience sounded like something Best Buy should do for the money I paid for the PSP. He agreed to do a store transfer. It took six days for me to get my HR20, but I got it.

Fortunately reading here made me very educated about the whole deal. That made it a lot less likely for me to end up unhappy.

tk


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

shadowbozo said:


> There is another way to do this if you still have your old R10 unit that had OTA with Tivo. Record your OTA stations on the Tivo unit. Just a thought from someone upgrading from the older H10.


Sorry, but the R10 DirecTivo never had OTA capability. The HR10-250 HD DirecTivo does have dual ATSC digital tuners, just like the HR20.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

pendragn said:


> My local Best Buy is the same way. They only carry HR21s, but we can't get our local network stations in HD from DirecTV. Normally this wouldn't bother me, but my HR10-250 died and I had a PSP for it. They tried to give me an HR21 in exchange for it. I explained that I wouldn't accept that because I needed OTA support to get my stations and the HR10-250 I had supported that. First the guy tried to convince me the HR21 did OTA. Then he thought maybe I could hook up a USB OTA tuner. Then he tried to convince me I *could* get my local network stations in HD from DirecTV. I told him if we could dial 1-800-Directv and have someone there tell me that then maybe I'd believe it. He made some calls and realized we couldn't. He told me that some of the surrounding stores still had HR20s and I could go there. The nearest was 45 miles away. I told him that that inconvenience sounded like something Best Buy should do for the money I paid for the PSP. He agreed to do a store transfer. It took six days for me to get my HR20, but I got it.
> 
> Fortunately reading here made me very educated about the whole deal. That made it a lot less likely for me to end up unhappy.
> 
> tk


So no TV for six days?? Did they stop making HR20? I mean how hard is it going to get one 3 months from now, when it happens to someone else and you really need OTA.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Que said:


> So no TV for six days?? Did they stop making HR20? I mean how hard is it going to get one 3 months from now, when it happens to someone else and you really need OTA.


Who knows, 3 months from now we might find HR20s overwhelming the shelves because the latest manufacturing run had just finished and arrived at BB, CC, and BB&B (for those looking for the pink models...) 

Cheers,
Tom


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## DeanS (Aug 23, 2006)

Yesterday I had a service technician out at my house because my HR20 was malfunctioning (not able to tune in about half of the new HD channels). After wiping the hard drive (which didn't fix the problem), he said I needed a new box. He offered to install the HR21, but I said "no" and that I preferred the HR20 so I could continue to receive OTA, especially KCET-DT here in the L.A. area. So he installed a refurbished HR20.

Now my "recent activity" indicates I owe D* $299.00 for a new HR20. Is this correct? I thought D* was leasing their DVR's. My original box was purchased from Best Buy. But they took that away and replaced it with the refurbed HR20. 

Is there any use in trying to argue with D* regarding this charge?


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

DeanS said:


> Yesterday I had a service technician out at my house because my HR20 was malfunctioning (not able to tune in about half of the new HD channels). After wiping the hard drive (which didn't fix the problem), he said I needed a new box. He offered to install the HR21, but I said "no" and that I preferred the HR20 so I could continue to receive OTA, especially KCET-DT here in the L.A. area. So he installed a refurbished HR20.
> 
> Now my "recent activity" indicates I owe D* $299.00 for a new HR20. Is this correct? I thought D* was leasing their DVR's. My original box was purchased from Best Buy. But they took that away and replaced it with the refurbed HR20.
> 
> Is there any use in trying to argue with D* regarding this charge?


Yes, you can argue about it. It took over 45 minutes on the phone and three months before my bill was credited when I was slapped with the $299 charge. D* claimed installer never returned unit to inventory and thought I must still have it.

Bill


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## alwayscool (Sep 24, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> And I forgot to mention in the above "robustness" post the rain fade problem, which will _always_ be with us and is a significant weakness of the Ka HD platform. I don't know if D* has done any marketing studies to determine what percentage of existing customers maintain some type of OTA antenna to deal with this problem, but I am one of them. Subscribers in the southeast US and particularly Florida are widely effected by this issue, and that is a very large number of D* customers. Sure we can use the ATSC tuners in our TV's, but people don't _like_ to mess with switching inputs, remotes, etc., and it leaves all their DVR customers out in the cold.


+1

I live in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and rain fade is a big problem here. Also the OTA picture quality is far superior than anything D* will ever have because it's not compressed.


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## alwayscool (Sep 24, 2006)

tonyquan said:


> back (no, haven't actually been on hold this long)
> 
> Retention was able to do better. Got a good person there, knew what I was asking for and why, and that it was better for DirecTV to try to meet a customer's need rather than ignore it.
> 
> ...


Let the fun begin.

Hate to say I told you so, but I told you so!

And to think I got blasted by the regulars here saying that OTA doesn't count.

I said it would have been a smarter move by D* to spend all the money they wasted on the HR21 on fixing the BUGS in the HR20 and make it solid. Not to mention support costs by having to support 2 boxes instead of 1.


----------



## alwayscool (Sep 24, 2006)

RAD said:


> Even if D10 had no problems, D11 was up and functional and D* had every HD channels up there they could get you'd still need ATSC in the HD DVR's for the stations that won't give D* retransmission rights. There are some station owners (LIN) that have not come to agreement with D* or E* to allow for retransmission of the ATSC signal.


+1

I agree. I get over 25 local OTA channels in my city. D* will NEVER carry all of them. Not to mention that new OTA locals pop up all the time. Same is true of my HD FM radio.


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## alwayscool (Sep 24, 2006)

jake14mw said:


> This is my first response to this whole topic. I have always thought that once DirecTV had HD locals for most people, that they could start saving some money and simplifying their product by providing a lower cost HD DVR without OTA tuners. When the review came up here on the HR21 w/o OTA, I didn't join the knee jerk ranters who began complaining. Choice is good I thought. The key question here is how much money does this save them? The rest of the DVR is the same, but now they have two different models to deal with that are basically the same. I say it would have to save them a significant amount on each receiver for this added confusion to be worth it. Why come out with a new model that only has insignificant benefits, and takes away a key feature for some subset of your customer base?
> 
> Really, how much does not including OTA save them? Is it worth this confusion/hassle to installers, D* service people, and customers?
> 
> ...


+1


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## HDhysteria (Sep 16, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> sub-channels are not carried by DIRECTV (by and large). There is no must-carry rule involving sub-channels and the FCC would have to get involved for that to happen.


I can only speak from my experience so I can not make a (by and large statement.) In Chicago I get 13 sub-channels in addition to the 15 -1's. This is not every sub-channel, but probably 80 to 90% of them.


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## twodutys (Feb 3, 2007)

Well one thing I know is that I pay $5.99 a month for the Protection plan and if they try to send me a HR21 when my HR20-700 dies I will have a Large Problem with D* .


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

twodutys said:


> Well one thing I know is that I pay $5.99 a month for the Protection plan and if they try to send me a HR21 when my HR20-700 dies I will have a Large Problem with D* .


Ditto.

I just got the protection plan.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

twodutys said:


> Well one thing I know is that I pay $5.99 a month for the Protection plan and if they try to send me a HR21 when my HR20-700 dies I will have a Large Problem with D* .


Read your protection plan...they have the right to do that if they wish. Start getting ready to argue "comparable features" with them. Hopefully, they'll ask and send the right units out to the people wanting OTA.

Equipment Replacement and Repair: At our option, we may repair or
replace a remote control or receiver by utilizing shipping and delivery
services at our expense. If we determine a replacement receiver is required,
we will ship a new or refurbished unit with comparable features to the
location where you receive DIRECTV programming. We will also provide for
return shipping of the defective unit. Should you fail to return the defective
unit, charges for the unreturned unit will apply.


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Ken S said:


> So...when do you think they'll be cutting off the EPG for OTA...or just charging an extra $5 a month for it?
> 
> Nahh...they wouldn't do that.


Ken, you have a wicked (and insightful), sense of humor.


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## jtn (Oct 18, 2007)

Other posters/members of the forum have said that DirecTV will let customers buy a leased unit at Best Buy or Circuit City (which have HR20-700S available), and they will apply credits to your account monthly to cover the cost. So over time you pay nothing for them.

Call DirecTV first to confirm, and if they say okay, then you can get them.


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## Pauley (Oct 16, 2007)

In Austin, DTV provides all of the local '-1' HD channels except for NBC. Don't know why. Wonder how I would get NBC if they replace my HR20s with HR21s.


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## randyk47 (Aug 21, 2006)

Got my HD DVR installed yesterday. Got up early and switched boxes around myself so the H20 went to the family room, the H10 to the crafts/exercise room, and all the installer had to do was plug and play in the theater. He shows up at 11 AM and hauls up the D* box. What's in it? An HR20-100. No problem and I'd left the OTA line in the equipment stack just in case so he hooked it up. I'm fine with having the OTA, in case of weather. I asked about HR21's and the answer was they'd gotten them and it really was just the luck of the draw that he grabbed an HR20 for my install that morning. So....I'm up and running and so far so good and the OTA is there if I need it.


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## JohnF (Mar 31, 2007)

Ken S said:


> Read your protection plan...they have the right to do that if they wish. Start getting ready to argue "comparable features" with them. Hopefully, they'll ask and send the right units out to the people wanting OTA.
> 
> Equipment Replacement and Repair: At our option, we may repair or
> replace a remote control or receiver by utilizing shipping and delivery
> ...


I don't think replacing an HR20 with an HR21 is consistent with the terms of the Protection Plan because the features are not comparable for users who receive OTA HD not available by satellite. I have paid for the Protection Plan over the years because the contract by using the term "comparable" assured me I would not lose functionality. As a previous poster pointed out in the LA area, PBS HD not available via satellite is a significant shortcoming and not consistent with providing "comparable" capability.

The posts pointing out the HR20 are be available from other sources are not valid responses for those of us who own our units and have paid for the Protection Plan. If you had a new car warranty that the dealer or manufacturer would not honor, would you say "no problem, you can always buy another car elsewhere?"

Whatever the speculation on future availability on the HR20, DTV would show good faith modifying their replacement process to allow the HR20 to be specified.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

We have an announcement from DIRECTV: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=106995

We can continue to discuss that solution in that thread.

Cheers,
Tom


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