# Had it with PCs



## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

I have had yet another PC start behaving erratically after less than 1 year. I am getting really upset because I use this PC for my business and have to have one.

I am considering getting a Macbook Pro as I am fed up with windows. 

anyone out there with an unbiased opinion? Will iWorks really convert all my word files and such - most if not all of my clients run PCs. Will this be a major headache for me? I mostly need word, excel and powerpoint applications.

Thoughts? Am I just being overly emotional and reacting?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

shedberg said:


> Am I just being overly emotional and reacting?


No.

But whether you should change depends greatly on what kind of business you are in and the related needs of your clients. I know attorneys do just fine with Mac's while accountants sometimes run into problems with dealing with data from client's accounting software.

And, if you're business is selling pc's....


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

phrelin said:


> No.
> 
> But whether you should change depends greatly on what kind of business you are in and the related needs of your clients. I know attorneys do just fine with Mac's while accountants sometimes run into problems with dealing with data from client's accounting software.
> 
> And, if you're business is selling pc's....


I have a stable desktop that I would use for my accounting stuff. I do consulting and basically use word, excell, powerepoint and sometimes visio. The visio and quickbooks I can keep on a stable desktop - everything else I'd like to use the macbook


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## drded (Aug 23, 2006)

Sounds like you've just had a couple of bad PCs. It happens with any machine.

Remember, Apple has repair departments too, they break just like PCs do.

Make sure the applications you are used to using everyday work as easily for you on the Mac. Many businesses have learned that conversion between systems can be expensive, and disruptive.

Dave


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Either way, you're going to be stuck with using Microsoft Office. The Apple applications aren't going to get it for anyone who must exchange documents and spreadsheets with Pee Cee users on a regular basis.

A stunning annoyance that I've encountered is that Office 2008 defaults to saving things in the new Office proprietary XML format that will give your associates with older versions of Office (and similar applications) fits. There is probably a setting somewhere to get around this but it is symptomatic of some of the kinds of battles you might face.

Unless you have a consuming need for a notebook, I wouldn't recommend one for your daily driver. They do cost considerably more and they are considerably less powerful if you're a power user.


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

drded said:


> Sounds like you've just had a couple of bad PCs. It happens with any machine.
> 
> Remember, Apple has repair departments too, they break just like PCs do.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know. Things break but I have heard that apple software is more stable. I would be interested in hearing if anyone has switched and uses iWorks and if there have been issues converting word and excel files, etc. Both on the Mac end and the PC end.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

shedberg said:


> I have a stable desktop that I would use for my accounting stuff. I do consulting and basically use word, excell, powerepoint and sometimes visio. The visio and quickbooks I can keep on a stable desktop - everything else I'd like to use the macbook


My youngest son switched to a Macbook and never looked back even though his company's system is Windows. He converts files with no problem. My oldest son's wife's company uses Mac's, but he still has a Vista laptop within her business network in order to cope with things that don't convert cross-platform. My guess is that you would be happier even though I'm retired and am stuck with my Windows habits and have to listen to my wife's complaints about Vista on average once an hour.


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

harsh said:


> Either way, you're going to be stuck with using Microsoft Office. The Apple applications aren't going to get it for anyone who must exchange documents and spreadsheets with Pee Cee users on a regular basis.
> 
> A stunning annoyance that I've encountered is that Office 2008 defaults to saving things in the new Office proprietary XML format that will give your associates with older versions of Office (and similar applications) fits. There is probably a setting somewhere to get around this but it is symptomatic of some of the kinds of battles you might face.
> 
> Unless you have a consuming need for a notebook, I wouldn't recommend one for your daily driver. They do cost considerably more and they are considerably less powerful if you're a power user.


That's what I'm looking for - so the iWorks doesn't really cut it?

I need to take my data with me when I travel so a laptop is preferable for me.


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

phrelin said:


> My youngest son switched to a Macbook and never looked back even though his company's system is Windows. He converts files with no problem. My oldest son's wife's company uses Mac's, but he still has a Vista laptop within her business network in order to cope with things that don't convert cross-platform. My guess is that you would be happier even though I'm retired and am stuck with my Windows habits and have to listen to my wife's complaints about Vista on average once an hour.


Good to know!

THANKS!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

shedberg said:


> That's what I'm looking for - so the iWorks doesn't really cut it?


In that its native formats aren't Office compatible, you'd have to remember to export them in Office format to share them. This includes Pages (word processing), Keynote (presentation) and Numbers (spreadsheet). It takes only one incompatible document e-mailed from a consultant to call their attention to detail into question.

For someone who is used to Word, Excel and PowerPoint, the operation of the software is different (probably easier and more intuitive).

My experience with the modern Mac is entirely in a support role with trying to convert documents back and forth as well as converting Word Perfect Mac documents from his old Mac to something Office can read (Office for Mac doesn't handle Word Perfect documents anymore). As it turns out, I use Office 2000 to convert Word Perfect documents to Word.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm certainly not unbiased but I'm not sure why your machine should be having problems unless it's a custom build or just a problem machine.

I've supported hundreds / thousands of PCs of major brands (starting with D and H) and other than isolated problems don't see that there's a trend with XP or Vista (other than I hate Vista).

And I can remember when you could look at a clone PC and it would reboot!


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## MeSue (Oct 7, 2007)

I've had just as many problems with my MacBook Pro than I have with my Windows desktop. Actually if you factor in productive time vs. solving problems time, I am much more productive on Windows. And when I have problems on Windows I can usually Google and find an answer fairly quickly, or at least a lot of things to try for troubleshooting. When I have problems on Mac, they are generally not as simple or quick to solve.

Anyway, it's a computer and therefore prone to issues no matter which flavor it is. Having used both, I may be in the minority, but I prefer Windows, and Vista to be specific... strange as it sounds!

I have not used iWorks, but I would say if you need Office compatibility, you should get Office for Mac. Don't forget to factor in all the new software to your "switching" expense.


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

I would recommend a MacBookPro and also purchase a copy of VmWare Fusion or something so IF the need arises you could have all your Win stuff on a separate partition on your MBP. You'll just need to keep your current Win discs around to load onto your new Mac after you've either loaded the Fusion software or the Boot Camp program that is included with all Macs.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

OSX is not a simple it works IMO. I have seen just as many issues and annoyances on OSX as any windows OS.

Anything can have issues and it all depends on how you work with it/treat it.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

shedberg said:


> I have had yet another PC start behaving erratically after less than 1 year. I am getting really upset because I use this PC for my business and have to have one.
> 
> I am considering getting a Macbook Pro as I am fed up with windows.
> 
> ...


First...when you say it is acting erratically what do you mean? What type of Windows PC are you using?

Moving to a Mac would depend on what applications you need. If you're just using MS Office than you can move between them quite easily. You may want to change the default format that one or the other saves in to ensure compatibility with your machines and those of your clients.

There is also a learning curve to any new operating system. While the MacOS is not hard to learn neither is Windows...they're similar in many ways, but there are differences.

As for support...you're not out in the cold with a Macintosh, but 90% of the computer universe is running on Windows.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

I believe OpenOffice runs on Mac and it's specifically designed to be Office-compatible AND it's free (from Sun).


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

Ken S said:


> First...when you say it is acting erratically what do you mean? What type of Windows PC are you using?
> 
> Moving to a Mac would depend on what applications you need. If you're just using MS Office than you can move between them quite easily. You may want to change the default format that one or the other saves in to ensure compatibility with your machines and those of your clients.
> 
> ...


I have an HP laptop running Vista SP1. It will sometimes just stop responding. For example, the other day, I took it out of the screensaver and my password prompt appeared. I could not enter am passord or even move the mouse. I shut down the PC to reboot it and it would not boot. No hard drive activity - the light was not flashing as usual nor was the drive spinning (by feel). I finally tried removing the battery and then it ended up booting. This type of thing makes me nervous that my system will crash at any time and not come back up. I can't afford to be at a client site and not have a PC. I do have daily backups so data loss is not the issue here - I just want a reliable laptop.


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

djlong said:


> I believe OpenOffice runs on Mac and it's specifically designed to be Office-compatible AND it's free (from Sun).


I actually have that program running on my current laptop. Unfortunately, my current client uses an infomapping format with tables embedded within tables and their word equivalent does not handle that well. Otherwise - I have no problems with it.


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## MeSue (Oct 7, 2007)

shedberg said:


> I have an HP laptop running Vista SP1. It will sometimes just stop responding. For example, the other day, I took it out of the screensaver and my password prompt appeared. I could not enter am passord or even move the mouse. I shut down the PC to reboot it and it would not boot. No hard drive activity - the light was not flashing as usual nor was the drive spinning (by feel). I finally tried removing the battery and then it ended up booting. This type of thing makes me nervous that my system will crash at any time and not come back up. I can't afford to be at a client site and not have a PC. I do have daily backups so data loss is not the issue here - I just want a reliable laptop.


That is interesting because it sounds similar to a problem I had on my MacBook Pro. Often it would go into sleep mode and never wake up. I would have to remove the battery to get it to start again. I sent it to Apple for repair, they sent it back to me without having fixed the problem AND with damage to the case.

So I spent my own time reinstalling the OS and getting all my programs set up again, which fixed the sleep problem. Then when they took it back again to repair the damaged case, they were oh so helpful and restored the system to a clean install, undoing all the work I had done myself to reinstall my programs!

Less than 6 months after that I had to reinstall the OS again due to some corruption that was causing a problem.

Anyway, if you are interested in Mac because you like the Mac OS or there is something in particular you can get for Mac that you can't get on Windows, then go for it. But if you are looking to Mac because you expect it to be problem-free, then think again.

Chances are, your HP laptop can be put back to good by doing a factory restore or clean install. You said you have backups so set aside a day and just do it. If you are worried about the hard drive, run diagnostics on it. If you still have problems after doing those things, then a hardware issue is a possibility.


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## redfiver (Nov 18, 2006)

If you get a MacBookPro, as someone said before, you can always get a virtualization program as well, but I suggest Parallels instead of VMFusion. IMO, it's a better program and very easy to use.

As for sharing files between PC and Mac, most people only share Office files, and you can get MS Office for Mac. Files that are made on the Mac version of Mac can be shared seamlessly with PCs, and vice versa.


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

MeSue said:


> That is interesting because it sounds similar to a problem I had on my MacBook Pro. Often it would go into sleep mode and never wake up. I would have to remove the battery to get it to start again. I sent it to Apple for repair, they sent it back to me without having fixed the problem AND with damage to the case.
> 
> So I spent my own time reinstalling the OS and getting all my programs set up again, which fixed the sleep problem. Then when they took it back again to repair the damaged case, they were oh so helpful and restored the system to a clean install, undoing all the work I had done myself to reinstall my programs!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. I am running a diagnostic as we speak. I understand about factory restores - just don't think they should have to be done. Why can't they just get stable software???


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

shedberg said:


> Thanks for the input. I am running a diagnostic as we speak. I understand about factory restores - just don't think they should have to be done. Why can't they just get stable software???


you are talking Microsoft, who stole the idea (and the source code) for windows from Palo Alto Research Park 
Remember, the gates keeper is both micro and soft.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

curt8403 said:


> you are talking Microsoft, who stole the idea (and the source code) for windows from Palo Alto Research Park
> Remember, the gates keeper is both micro and soft.


It is actually Steve Jobs who "stole" the idea of a windowed, WYSIWYG operating system from PARC. He's admitted it on dozens of occasions, but even then, it wasn't totally stealing; Xerox was given Apple stock in return for allowing engineers to visit PARC, see the research going on, and interview the engineers. Neither Gates or Jobs had access to any PARC source code, and it would have been useless to them anyway, as it was designed to run on custom hardware that neither would be using.

Other notible products from folks who worked at PARC and developed technologies that Xerox was too stupid to use, who subsequently left and started their own companies:

3com - Ethernet was developed at PARC by Robert Metcalfe, who left and founded 3com

Adobe Systems - Started by former PARC employees John Warnock and Charles Geschke, Adobe's first product was Postscript, a language for printing to the first laser printers. Adobe has since developed a number of industry leading software programs, including Photoshop and Illustrator, and the PDF document format used with their Acrobat software and others.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

IIP said:


> It is actually Steve Jobs who "stole" the idea of a windowed, WYSIWYG operating system from PARC. He's admitted it on dozens of occasions, but even then, it wasn't totally stealing; Xerox was given Apple stock in return for allowing engineers to visit PARC, see the research going on, and interview the engineers. Neither Gates or Jobs had access to any PARC source code, and it would have been useless to them anyway, as it was designed to run on custom hardware that neither would be using.
> 
> Other notible products from folks who worked at PARC and developed technologies that Xerox was too stupid to use, who subsequently left and started their own companies:
> 
> ...


only going on what I was told. I was also told this....
http://www.joketribe.com/96/January/The.DOS.Fish.php


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

IIP said:


> It is actually Steve Jobs who "stole" the idea of a windowed, WYSIWYG operating system from PARC. He's admitted it on dozens of occasions, but even then, it wasn't totally stealing; Xerox was given Apple stock in return for allowing engineers to visit PARC, see the research going on, and interview the engineers. Neither Gates or Jobs had access to any PARC source code, and it would have been useless to them anyway, as it was designed to run on custom hardware that neither would be using.
> 
> Other notible products from folks who worked at PARC and developed technologies that Xerox was too stupid to use, who subsequently left and started their own companies:
> 
> ...


I believe the mouse was developed there as well.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

What you're talking about would be very tough to debug over the net as it could be a myriad of different problems.

HP used to make a very nice laptop I really don't know their quality level any more. We stick with Thinkpad T series laptops here...they've been rock solid for over ten years....we tend to actually wear out keyboards and have to upgrade because of technology reasons and not because they stopped operating. We have one made by Lenovo (company that bought the Thinkpad from IBM) and it has performed very well. The other five were IBM.

Anyway, let's just start with some basics. What processor and how much RAM do you have in the machine? What size is the HD and how much free space do you have?
Finally, are there any errors showing up in the Even Viewer for System?

I'm not sure we'll find the problem...but let's see if it's something easy.


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

shedberg said:


> Thanks for the input. I am running a diagnostic as we speak. I understand about factory restores - just don't think they should have to be done. Why can't they just get stable software???


Have you checked the power settings for your laptop...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Going back to the original post....

IMHO, and based on many, many testimonies from users....anything that contains an Apple logo on it is flawed. They still haven't gotten the *original* Ipods working without bugs after years and years...let alone the *new ones*, or the *iPhone*, or the *iMac*, or the......you get the idea.

They seem to have some interesting concepts, but fail to cleanly deliver their actual products. There will NEVER be an Apple anything in this household.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Microsoft software and OSs have bugs and flaws. So does Apple. So do the various flavors of Linux. So does Solaris, AIX, and every other OS I can think of.

Likewise, hardware manufacturers all have issues with defective parts, even with the best designs.

Brand-jumping isn't going to change that.

We are seeing the same issues with HD-DVRs; the DirecTV folks complain about their HD-DVRs and the problems caused by software updates, and the Dish folks do the same. At any given time, one company may be doing several things well and a few things poorly, and the other company may be opposite. Neither company offers flawless products.

All of these devices are extremely complex, and we ask more and more of them all the time, so it shouldn't be a huge surprise when there are issues occasionally.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Going back to the original post....
> 
> IMHO, and based on many, many testimonies from users....anything that contains an Apple logo on it is flawed. They still haven't gotten the *original* Ipods working without bugs after years and years...let alone the *new ones*, or the *iPhone*, or the *iMac*, or the......you get the idea.
> 
> They seem to have some interesting concepts, but fail to cleanly deliver their actual products. There will NEVER be an Apple anything in this household.


Ok... I've tried biting my tongue and staying out of this thread... but this one sent me over the edge... :lol:

Your post is a bit misleading and is based off of _other_ peoples testimonials... I, however, can speak from both sides... I was strictly a PC user up until about a year and a half ago... While apple products are not perfect and could use some polishing (i.e MobileMe website, iPhone)... they still outperform any Windows based piece of equipment I have ever owned... (and I've owned a lot).

The way the iPhone and a Mac computer integrate is like nothing else... and the few glitches that the iPhone does have can easily be overlooked... and as far as Mac computers go... The speed, performance, and reliability is ridiculous...

Also... exactly what iPod issues are you referring to??


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## xIsamuTM (Jul 8, 2008)

PC, Mac, makes no diference as far as I'm concerned. Coke vs Pepsi. Now as far as Laptop vs Desktop, I'm a desktop person all the way.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

AirRocker said:


> Ok... I've tried biting my tongue and staying out of this thread... but this one sent me over the edge... :lol:
> 
> Your post is a bit misleading and is based off of _other_ peoples testimonials... I, however, can speak from both sides... I was strictly a PC user up until about a year and a half ago... While apple products are not perfect and could use some polishing (i.e MobileMe website, iPhone)... they still outperform any Windows based piece of equipment I have ever owned... (and I've owned a lot).
> 
> ...


There are countless testimonials about people who finally got Apple to admit significant flaws in their products, going back to the original iPod, that *never got corrected.*

I'll just leave it at that. To me, having seen people throw away equipment in frustration that didn't work right (not just iPods) has left me with an admittedly tainted view of a company that markets extremely well but doesn't deliver the goods. Its an admitted bias, but reinforced on real-world experience and others who have testified their experiences in person and in print. Kinda like my view on the cable industry.

Just google "IPod flaws" or "Apple recalls" and see what you get....

But I know some folks just love their Apples (_even if some are rotten_).  :lol:


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## Cmnore (Sep 22, 2008)

Aside from the Apple fanboys lurking around here, I beg to differ.

The most and WORST problems I've ever had with the much maligned PC were from OEM vendors. I WILL agree with Ken S though concerning the older HP laptops(Omnibooks anyway) - they were robust workhorses. Every single person I know that has owned a Dell or HP PC has had an innumerous amount of problems with them. Myself included. It is precisely why I decided to start building my own. My builds are unquestionably reliable. I hear people complain about MS and Windoze day in and day out, but I can't understand what they're doing to create the problems they have. Everyone likes to assume that 'it's the software, dummy' - but I just don't think that's the case. I think it is a combination of poorly tested hardware that is tossed into a blender-of-sorts, and then marketed as the 'latest-and-greatest' hardware solution! Companies like Gigabyte and ASUS will destroy companies like DELL and HP all day long in benchmarking tests - with the SAME chipsets. Why? Because they specialize in component integration. PC OEM's don't. Their marketing strategies involve planned obsolescence as the ultimate in ensuring a returning customer base. My last three builds are all still running without issue, on the ORIGINAL XP installations(32 and 64 bit). The oldest is 5 years old - pretty ancient in terms of PC lifespan. Aside from using a decent spyware check and antivirus/firewall - a properly assembled PC should be as reliable as a new car. My PC's have actually failed me less-often than my three autos have over the years(and yes, the PC's run 24/7).


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

While I do really like Apple, I'm no fanboy... I'm actually getting really tired of waiting on them to resolve some of these issues that have been known for quite some time (regarding the iPhone and MobileMe)... But it's also refreshing when a company will admit mistakes, say that they're working on a resolution, and give credits unprompted... 

Hopefully the resolutions will be speedy, or I guess I'm stuck waiting on something better to come along...


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

shedberg said:


> I have an HP laptop running Vista SP1. It will sometimes just stop responding. For example, the other day, I took it out of the screensaver and my password prompt appeared. I could not enter am passord or even move the mouse. I shut down the PC to reboot it and it would not boot. No hard drive activity - the light was not flashing as usual nor was the drive spinning (by feel). I finally tried removing the battery and then it ended up booting. This type of thing makes me nervous that my system will crash at any time and not come back up. I can't afford to be at a client site and not have a PC. I do have daily backups so data loss is not the issue here - I just want a reliable laptop.


Well, Vista is very awkward unless you wade your way down through the stupid menu system (I liken it to a game with levels, except it's about trying to get things done in real life). Once I got all the various hidden settings adjusted, I don't have any more problems than I had with XP.

I know it's a security issue, but I turned off the password requirement to come out of screensaver on all our machines including the notebook. And if I can plug it in, no power saving features like "sleep" are on. These things would give me grief on XP machines also. My guess is that they could screw up on a Macbook, but maybe not.


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

Well, after about two hours chatting with HP, My hard drive self test passed on both the quick and SMART test. So they had me reset the bios to the default settings and uninstall the ACPI Fixed Features Button. This reinstalled it on reboot. They say the problem is fixed - I have no way of really knowing unless it happens again.

As to Ken S, I have 2.0 GB ram, with AMD 64x2 at 2 GHz

I have 250 GB hard drive with 119 GB free space.

As to the system errors, I have had 12 criticals none recent. 1460 errors and 7103 warnings - anything in particular you are looking for? I tried bringing them to the support staff attention and they did not care. Some of these are missed backups from Norton Ghost though.


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## Cmnore (Sep 22, 2008)

ACPI can be a NIGHTmare for certain people, performing certain tasks, in certain situations. Sounds like you were just such a person.


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

Cmnore said:


> ACPI can be a NIGHTmare for certain people, performing certain tasks, in certain situations. Sounds like you were just such a person.


Hopefully that was the problem and it is resolved. I may still get a Mac as a backup and start playing around with it just to compare.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

shedberg said:


> Well, after about two hours chatting with HP, My hard drive self test passed on both the quick and SMART test. So they had me reset the bios to the default settings and uninstall the ACPI Fixed Features Button. This reinstalled it on reboot. They say the problem is fixed - I have no way of really knowing unless it happens again.
> 
> As to Ken S, I have 2.0 GB ram, with AMD 64x2 at 2 GHz
> 
> ...


shedberg,

You certainly have enough machine to run Vista so that isn't the issue. I'd be interested in hearing about any errors that are constantly repeating that aren't related to backups or w32time.

My guess is they're on the right track with disabling the ACPI. They may have many reports on the same issue. Give it a try and see if it runs well.


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

Ken S said:


> shedberg,
> 
> You certainly have enough machine to run Vista so that isn't the issue. I'd be interested in hearing about any errors that are constantly repeating that aren't related to backups or w32time.
> 
> My guess is they're on the right track with disabling the ACPI. They may have many reports on the same issue. Give it a try and see if it runs well.


After some digging, quite a few of the errors a lot of people are having issues with so they may not be related to the specific isssue I had.


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