# When is 215 coming? (Several merged threads)



## bluegreg

whats happening mark?


----------



## boylehome

bluegreg said:


> whats happening mark?


Have you called E* and asked them? They know just as much as anyone else. My guess is that the software will spool in the very near future.


----------



## tnsprin

boylehome said:


> Have you called E* and asked them? They know just as much as anyone else. My guess is that the software will spool in the very near future.


CSR's may give you any any answer in the book.

Those who really may know don't talk to the likes of us.


----------



## Jason Kragt

I got pretty high in the tech support food chain today. They honestly believe that the current release (213) is pretty stable. (I'm not trying to make a judgement, but rather just conveying what the "truth" is inside the walls of Dish.) The new release (214) has some pretty big problems and would have generated substantially more trouble that it would have solved. They don't have a clue as to the next release date. It's time for me to bail.


----------



## Ron Barry

Jason,

Did you get this information from the Eldon team or someone in ATS. If they did tell you like you typed it, I am not sure where they got it from. I am sure Allen and Mark have a better handle on the state of 214 and from what they have indicated it is by no means what the people up the food change that you chatted with stated. 

If Dish's tech support team is anothing like the one that works within our company, I doubt they would have a good idea of the current state of the next code drop is. They tend to work in the present not the future.


----------



## UT_Texan

considering the delays of the update which a great deal of us believe at least one issue is a must fix asap, and the problems previous releases have caused I would agree with what Jason posted. I mean come on, they have been delaying the release week after week. This latest one was because they believe they have found a fix for another bug (suspect it to be the aspect ratio bug) even though this release is to contain numerous updates. I would give more creditability to Jason before I would Mark or Allen right now based on history.
No disrepect intended Mark and Allen. I just know how your hands are tied right now and are very unlikely to state the facts as much as y'all would like.


----------



## Ron Barry

Well Texan, I guess your experiences in the software release process differ from mine. As to who to believe, well we each make our own call on that one. I tend to go with people closer to the actually development process even though I know they cannot tell of everything since they are under NDA. 

I feel I have a good understanding of what it takes to release software and I have personally seen software updates get pulled at the last minute because they found something. It is the nature of the beast and I would rather have them pull it than release it with less than high confidence that it will perform well. Even if it has a major fix in it. 

Jason's comment is interesting and note worth, but personally I have more confidence in the information coming from Allen and Mark. Yes they might not be able to tell us everything but I also personally know they would not purposely misleads us. If I recall Allan and Mark have commented on the their personal opinions on the state of 214. 

Like I said above, each person must be the judge. If Jason's right then 214 is months away and plan accordingly.


----------



## SummitAdvantageRetailer

From what I gather, the 214 beta Mark has used solved a lot of problems currently experienced with the 213 software version. He didn't state that it had more bugs but that the current bugs were mostly gone and that it was going to go through one more beta before being released. But since a new bug fix was introduced, it's probably going through the beta now and will be packaged for download either this week or next. I also notice how "silent" Allen and Mark has been these days regarding 214. Maybe they're too busy with the 942's or maybe they're just waiting for 214 to release before speaking out.


----------



## DonLandis

I think Jason is on target with what he learned. 

If you are reading this, DishNetwork- 
Please do not release any software that is not fully tested. Regardless of what some people have posted as a desire to try something new, I really believe they will not be happy with something new that breaks basic functions as you have done in the past. Supposedly that release (L211) had 3 months of testing by your beta test team and within a week after the release we all confirmed it caused video jitters, more ZSR's, stuck aspect ratios, and missed timer recordings, and complete erasure of the hard drive program content. So what kind of beta or testing program is that anyway? Hopefully, you all got your act together after that huge failure and will continue to avoid sending us an update until it is proved it works. I really don't care if it takes you until 2006 to get it right. I want to remind you that the current release, while not perfect, at least allows us a picture we can watch and if careful with certain work arounds, allows us to record and recover from continued stuck aspect ratio issues.


----------



## UT_Texan

Well Ron,
My experiences haven't been that great. I still have the jitters, distortion, stuck aspect, slow motion not working as it should, 692 blackout err, 10 sec back and 30 sec forward not working properly, etc. The jitters is one of the most aggrevating problems I have. Mark has explained to me that it might be because of an issue between a video driver and Philips tv's. I have been waiting for months for an update to this issue but I know nothing. Maybe Allen will read and can assist in finding info. out about it. If not, I would be glad to take it off their plate and talk directly to those in E* who I can work with. I wasn't asked when I bought the 921 what tv I had because there is an issue with the 921 and certain tvs.

I think Don made some very good and interesting points that I didn't even think about.
The only other thing I can think of is if they truely delayed this huge bug fix release because they want to squash one more bug then it leads me to believe that it will be much longer than 3-4 months for our next release after this one. I am sorry but it makes no sense to me to delay this huge fix to fix one other bug that delays this release by weeks maybe months. I mean come on, why couldn't they release 214 and then in 2-4 weeks release another version that fixes this one bug?


----------



## Jason Kragt

Ron Barry said:


> Jason,
> 
> Did you get this information from the Eldon team or someone in ATS.


I wish I would have taken notes during the call, but I didn't. I got past the Advanced Technical Support team to another group that apparently deals more with the engineers than with customers. I don't remember the name of this group. They are a group that calls you--you don't call them. (On a side note, their customer service skills could benefit from some sharpening.  ) The impression I was left with is that they are both fed up and scared--fed up with people like me that won't let them off the hook for everything not working perfectly, and scared because they don't know with any certainty when these things are going to be fixed.

I have no doubt that Mark or Allen have better contacts than me, but I just wanted to pass along my experience after being on the phone with them for so long. My suspicion is that the folks at Dish are being honest, but there is a great deal of uncertainty at the moment and the answer you get depends on who you talk to. I wasn't left with any feeling of confidence (or competence) which is why I'm considering bailing out now.


----------



## Ron Barry

UT_Texan said:


> I am sorry but it makes no sense to me to delay this huge fix to fix one other bug that delays this release by weeks maybe months. I mean come on, why couldn't they release 214 and then in 2-4 weeks release another version that fixes this one bug?


From the above post I don't think you have an understanding of the software release process. In most cases you can't just release a software update and then follow up with another a couple of weeks later with another a software update with just one fix. Even if you placed one fix in the code base, some level of regression and Beta would have to be done.

Also, Software updates are not free to a company. The goal of the company is to minimize the updates they make because they introduce risk, add administrative cost, and from my experience are a pain. Company tend to lean towards minimizing as much as possible.

Personally I am not sure why they pulled 214 and what bug fix the felt was needed enough to pull 214 from going out the door. My guess is it was something they felt was significant enough to hold off. From my experience pulling releases is not done lightly, it usually a judgement call based on a number of factors, and the outside world including the Beta team is usually not aware of these factors.

Don: I fully agree with your statements regarding releasing software before its time. Rushing out a software update always adds risk and sometimes can make things worse. The other side of the equation is that you never know how your software will do once release no matter how well you Beta program is designed. There a number of examples of software that has had long Beta programs with lots of internal testing and still release with issues. As to Jason's comments, well nothing wrong with disagreeing on that point.

Jason: Nothing wrong with relaying your experience. It is like a court trial and it is one piece of evidence along with the rest peoples posts and experiences. Same goes with the 921. Some people are having some issues, some are having none, and some are having barrel fulls. People have to take this into account also if they were thinking about getting one.

You might be right, but from what I have read and seen I would say the information relayed to you was on the glass is empty side. Not even half empty. The person might be right, might be a bit frustrated, etc. hard to say and in my book information is king. Good post.. I am taking what I know, applying it to my personal development/release/maintenance experiences and drawing my conclusions.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Guys, I'm not being purposely quiet about the new release...the fact is that I have no idea what's going on right now because I haven't had the time to follow up and find out what's going on. I'm stuck working nights right now on a construction job that's a 90 minute commute each way from my house, so I haven't had a lot of free time to spend trying to track down where this release is. 

I can tell you that I know of only one bug that's holding it up. There may be more, but I'm only aware of one.


----------



## Eagles

whats happening mark?



I think the question is, what happened to Mark? Either Dish has put the "NDA" clamps on all 921 software type information flow from his end, or he has given up in frustration. As Mark has been somewhat active in the 942 threads and I'm feeling the same vibe from a my Dish contact on this issue, my guess is the former. At this point I would really be surprised if an update came anytime soon. 
I also agree with those who feel that the non-release is more than just some minor glitch in 214. All of this is just conjecture on my part based on nothing but a gut feeling.


----------



## Allen Noland

I've been out of touch for about a week now. I know that a new beta did hit my 921 and I haven't had any problems with the bug in question. I'll see if I can get an idea if L214 will stream this week or next.


----------



## astrotrf

Ron Barry said:


> From the above post I don't think you have an understanding of the software release process. In most cases you can't just release a software update and then follow up with another a couple of weeks later with another a software update with just one fix. Even if you placed one fix in the code base, some level of regression and Beta would have to be done.


Well, I guess reasonable people can disagree here. I have quite a bit of understanding of the software release process; do it all the time. Two to four weeks to test a single bug fix is plenty of time; after all, the remainder of the code isn't being changed.

It isn't as though you have to test each and every single feature when you fix a problem. After all, fixing, say, an aspect-ratio problem doesn't mean you have to go back to check to make sure that the bug that fails to detect 3 simultaneous timers is still there. Fixing the aspect ratio is unlikely to have fixed the other bug, too - you can be quite sure it still exists, so the software is, by Eldon standards, good to go.

The biggest obstacle to multiple software updates is distribution; how do you get the software shipped to all of your customers? In this particular case, the cost is almost negligible; you simply replace the image you're spooling now with a new one. It's not as though they have to cut and mail several million CDs.

So, yeah, you can follow up a software release with another one in 2 to 4 weeks, if all it contained was one bug fix. In fact, for a well-organized development project, it isn't even that big a deal.

Terry (astrotrf)


----------



## SimpleSimon

Mark Lamutt said:


> ... I'm stuck working nights right now on a construction job that's a 90 minute commute each way from my house, ...


You're making it in 90 minutes? Wow - pretty good!

And it was nice meeting you the other night.


----------



## UT_Texan

Ron,
I too am a programmer and I am very familiar with the software release process. 
E* has released previous updates to this and other systems that only contained one fix. L213 was one. 213 to me would have been much more trouble to release because it meant that the beta that was being tested had to be removed/changed, the DST fix added and then deployed and then the beta that was being worked had to be added to 213 for new testing. I could be wrong but that is what I gathered from other posts when 213 came out. Another unit recently received one fix as well. So what E* is doing is exactly what you are saying can't be done with the exception of releasing the version that has been tested and per Allen and Mark was ready to go about 2 weeks ago. Hopefully I can be proven wrong and a new release will come this week or next as Allen says it will be.


----------



## Ron Barry

I didn't say that it can't be done. I said in most cases it can't. I guess I should have worded if differently and said it wouldn't. By can't I was refering to the procedural issues that companies have. I would say given the same circumstances and depending on the severity of the bug, 9 times out of 10 the release would have been back. But of course that is based on my experiences. 

Different companies have different release processes and depending on the complexity of product and the release procedures of the company it may or may not allow what we are discussing. In the fortune 500 companies I have worked for, releasing even a one fix release without a running regression on it and a short sanity Beta would a rarity. I also have been in the situation where this call is being made and there is always a lot of resistence to the release and follow up in a short time with another release. 

In either case this could not be done in a two week period, but then again I work mainly in the embedded distributed enterprise space. 

As to the L213 release, well I never said Dish did not make one fix releases. I also believe that the release notes we see are just the big fish and that other fixes are contained in the image. So maybe L213 was a one fix release, but my guess is there might have been some other minor fixes. If I recall, L213 was not released two weeks after another release was it? 

Well in any case.. Some interesting thought. If I offend you texan, not my intention. based on a post above I got the impression you were not familar with how software was released. Obviously our experiences are different. I still stand behind my opinion given Dish and the product line they are responsible for, but I shoudl have been a bit more percise on what I was actually saying. 

Cheers.... Glad to see we can have dialog without picking up a rock and throwing it. I apologize if it sounded like a threw one in your direction. 

Night


----------



## UT_Texan

Ron,
I am not offended at all. It is nice we can have an open dialog and at the end even if we still don't agree that we can each respect the other's opinions! In the end we still both want the same thing, a reliable update as soon as possible.


----------



## Allen Noland

We should see L214 Next week.


----------



## ayalbaram

Allen Noland said:


> We should see L214 Next week.


Heard that one before


----------



## bluegreg

the key word is "SHOULD"?

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
shall 
Pronunciation: sh&l, 'shal
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): past should /sh&d, 'shud/; present singular & plural shall
Etymology: Middle English shal (1st & 3d sing. present indic.), from Old English sceal; akin to Old High German scal (1st & 3d singular present indicative) ought to, must, Lithuanian skola debt
verbal auxiliary
1 archaic a : will have to : MUST b : will be able to : CAN
2 a -- used to express a command or exhortation <you shall go> b -- used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory <it shall be unlawful to carry firearms>
3 a -- used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future <we shall have to be ready> <we shall see> b -- used to express simple futurity <when shall we expect you>
4 -- used to express determination <they shall not pass>
intransitive senses, archaic : will go <he to England shall along with you -- Shakespeare>
usage From the reams of pronouncements written about the distinction between shall and will--dating back as far as the 17th century--it is clear that the rules laid down have never very accurately reflected actual usage. The nationalistic statements of 18th and 19th century British grammarians, who commonly cited the misuses of the Irish, the Scots, and occasionally the Americans, suggest that the traditional rules may have come closest to the usage of southern England. Some modern commentators believe that English usage is still the closest to the traditionally prescribed norms. Most modern commentators allow that will is more common in nearly all uses. The entries for shall and will in this dictionary show current usage.


----------



## Bradtothebone

Allen Noland said:


> We should see L214 Next week.


Thanks, Allen, for the update.

Brad


----------



## Scooters

Thanks Allen for the update!

(Hint to others: We will probably get more information from other members of the board if we don't make fun of their response when we get it).

I appreciate any information/updates. Some will accurate and some won't. You be the judge.....


----------



## Allen Noland

Scooters said:


> Thanks Allen for the update!
> 
> (Hint to others: We will probably get more information from other members of the board if we don't make fun of their response when we get it).
> 
> I appreciate any information/updates. Some will accurate and some won't. You be the judge.....


I'm glad some people appreciate the information. The bashers do take the fun out of helping out around here. Some people will be unhappy no matter what information I release. And even though I have an exact project completion date, it is always subject to change. Therefore, the information I release is purposely vague. If a critical bug were to come up between now and the expected roll-out of L214, it will get delayed again. Eldon is really trying to catch as many bugs as possible. I really think that going forward releases will be a few bug fixes and more new features.


----------



## Ron Barry

Allan, 

You actually think some new features will be rollled into the 921. I figured basically the best we can hope for an effort to reach as stable state as possible. 

As to the bashing. Scooter might be referring to my commant about Jason's experience. Its intention was not to bash Jason, Just to state my opinion on what information I considered more crediable. I personally appreciate all external bits of info, but in the end everyone makes up their own mind. 

Hopefully 214 will be a welcome update. 

Cheers,

Ron


----------



## garyhesq

So, does that mean we are going to get NBR? (ducking) Just kidding!


----------



## SummitAdvantageRetailer

Allen Noland said:


> I'm glad some people appreciate the information. The bashers do take the fun out of helping out around here. Some people will be unhappy no matter what information I release. And even though I have an exact project completion date, it is always subject to change. Therefore, the information I release is purposely vague. If a critical bug were to come up between now and the expected roll-out of L214, it will get delayed again. Eldon is really trying to catch as many bugs as possible. I really think that going forward releases will be a few bug fixes and more new features.


Are you serious about maybe new features? Hopefully NBR will take on the same priority as Ch. 100 interactive software.


----------



## Jerry G

SummitAdvantageRetailer said:


> Are you serious about maybe new features? Hopefully NBR will take on the same priority as Ch. 100 interactive software.


Yea. It's hard to believe people haven't learned. It was the OTA guide that brought upon the current disaster. If the 921 can ever be stabilized, that's the very best we could hope for. To try to add any new feature is just asking for major trouble. FORGET NBR!!! FORGET ANY NEW FEATURES AT ALL. Let us just have a stable 921 with whatever it's got in it right now. It may not be the right approach or the right attitude, but with given how much of a lemon the 921 is, stability in it's current form is the best we can hope for and expect.


----------



## socceteer

Yes ...If the OTA guide is the only fix I will be happy...!


----------



## BobMurdoch

Allen Noland said:


> I'm glad some people appreciate the information. The bashers do take the fun out of helping out around here. Some people will be unhappy no matter what information I release. And even though I have an exact project completion date, it is always subject to change. Therefore, the information I release is purposely vague. If a critical bug were to come up between now and the expected roll-out of L214, it will get delayed again. Eldon is really trying to catch as many bugs as possible. I really think that going forward releases will be a few bug fixes and more new features.


Do what I do, add any bashers to your ignore list and enjoy......

There ARE folks out here who appreciate any legitimate updates whatever the source..... Keep the hints coming. Hopefully, they will keep to the schedule and download it next week......


----------



## Allen Noland

I confirmed again yesterday that NBR is not planned for the 921. As far as new features, who knows. Dish Home is the next feature to be activiated on the 921 after L214


----------



## bluegreg

I certainly appreciate the information Allen. I don't mean to be critical but I don't believe any 921 owner can really feel they got their moneys worth and were totally ripped off by dish! Apart from making the system work in a stable way. Dish needs to give something back to all 921 owners. I paid over $1,000 for my unit plus other installations. ( including four units that were swapped out two never received OTA and one never worked) credit on statement or programming credit or free upgrades to 942 or mpg4 system when available. In a good faith gesture that they had a real lemon and the little consumer was left holding the bag. Even if they stabilize system I will still have a very bad taste in my mouth from this entire ordeal. I was a staunch loyal customer but have no loyalty now.
I am sure the majority of 921 owners feel this way. I can't imagine how the majority of owners feel who don't get some benefit from this great forum site.

I would appreciate Allen if you can forward this posting to the higher ups at Dish. I would like them to hear my voice.
thank you


----------



## TonyB

Allen Noland said:


> I confirmed again yesterday that NBR is not planned for the 921. As far as new features, who knows. Dish Home is the next feature to be activiated on the 921 after L214


I thought Dish home was IN 214? Did something change - just like always - we get less and less.


----------



## ayalbaram

Allen Noland said:


> I confirmed again yesterday that NBR is not planned for the 921. As far as new features, who knows. Dish Home is the next feature to be activiated on the 921 after L214


I just don't get it add a new feature to an unstable platform?? especially a feature such as dish home which I think the majority of 921 owners would be willing to live w/o, then on the other hand you have the NBR feature as well as firewire which were both promised to us by dish and they will not add the functionality. It's unfortunate that the only ones who would benefit from a class action are the lawyers, but dish had should make right by 921 owners or someone will wind up filing that class action on the basis of false advertising or something along those lines.

Allen as to my earlier cynical comment I did not intend any bashing to be thrown your way just trying to point out to everyone not to get to excited as we have heard new sw was a week or two away quite a few times over the past months.


----------



## kzosat

Someone please correct me, but I don't remember 921 NBR ever being promised, just the 500 series of DVR's (which has yet to happen on all but the 522). I remember in a tech chat it being vaguely mentioned for the 921 (although I don't know if it said it explicitly or it just said the other models).Granted I would like to see NBR on 921. 

The DishWire issue still burns me though.


----------



## Redster

I think the Dishwire issue burns a lot of people who were expecting to use the 921 for archiving. I doubt we will ever see it unless some new laws get passed . Right now ,, all I want to see is, what it is supposed to do, work well and not take a step backward like 213 did with the OTA tuner for me. And yes,, thank you Allen for all the work you do.


----------



## JM Anthony

bluegreg said:


> . . . I would appreciate Allen if you can forward this posting to the higher ups at Dish. I would like them to hear my voice.
> thank you


Get off your ass and do it yourself. The address is [email protected]. I usually get a response.


----------



## bluegreg

JM Anthony said:


> Get off your ass and do it yourself. The address is [email protected]. I usually get a response.


whats up your ass?
I have emailed and phoned dozens of times. I will do whatever I please JM stoner.


----------



## robkunz

Allen Noland said:


> I confirmed again yesterday that NBR is not planned for the 921. As far as new features, who knows. Dish Home is the next feature to be activiated on the 921 after L214


Can anyone explain why the 921 won't get NBR? Can't it handle it? Is the software so much different between the 921 and 942?


----------



## Ron Barry

The 921 and the 942 are based off two different code bases. The 921 is based on the 721 and the 942 is based on the 522. My guess no NBR on the 921 was mainly a marketing decision but this is purely speculation on my part. I personally am not aware of any technical reason why. There is a number of opinions on this issue and doing a search would yeld a lot of info on the subject. 

My opinion porting the NBR code to the 921 is not a minor task and with the relatively small customer base (compared to the 508/510 base) , the MPEG-4 migration upcoming, the fact the 942 exists were all factors contributing to why no NBR on 921. I believe this is the same rational why there will be no NBR on the 721. 

It is my belief NBR was never committed to each of these platforms.


----------



## BobMurdoch

Too much programming money to be spent on too few users I'm guessing. Couple that with the fact that they can't get it stable to begin with and I'm guessing that there are other limitations we aren't hearing about (timer conflict resolution problems, etc.)


----------



## TonyB

Ron Barry said:


> The 921 and the 942 are based off two different code bases. The 921 is based on the 721 and the 942 is based on the 921. My guess no NBR on the 921 was mainly a marketing decision but this is purely speculation on my part. I personally am not aware of any technical reason why. There is a number of opinions on this issue and doing a search would yeld a lot of info on the subject.
> 
> My opinion porting the NBR code to the 921 is not a minor task and with the relatively small customer base (compared to the 508/510 base) , the MPEG-4 migration upcoming, the fact the 942 exists were all factors contributing to why no NBR on 921. I believe this is the same rational why there will be no NBR on the 721.
> 
> It is my belief NBR was never committed to each of these platforms.


I doubt that the 942 is based on the 921 - if it is then the 942 is also doomed - I think we all agree that the 921 is on a downward spiral -its just a question of how steep a spiral.


----------



## Ron Barry

Oops. Tony.. that is typo..The 942 is based on the 522 code base. It should read better now.


----------



## tnsprin

kzosat said:


> Someone please correct me, but I don't remember 921 NBR ever being promised, just the 500 series of DVR's (which has yet to happen on all but the 522). I remember in a tech chat it being vaguely mentioned for the 921 (although I don't know if it said it explicitly or it just said the other models).Granted I would like to see NBR on 921.
> 
> The DishWire issue still burns me though.


NBR was originally for all the Currently available (shipping) DVR's then they started back pedeling.


----------



## JM Anthony

bluegreg said:


> whats up your ass?
> I have emailed and phoned dozens of times. I will do whatever I please JM stoner.


I get tired of people whining about 921's and then asking others to do their bidding. You probably still have someone cleaning up your room and dressing you in the morning. Right?? Yeah, I thought so.


----------



## Ron Barry

As much as I would ike to see NBR, I personally don't consider a mention in Charlie chat as an official commitment. Are you talking about something more than that tnsprin. If I recall, the 921 was not specifically mentioned when those statements were made and they were very general to say the least. THat is how I saw it, but this can definitely be up to interpertation for sure.


----------



## AVJohnnie

Ron Barry said:


> As much as I would ike to see NBR, I personally don't consider a mention in Charlie chat as an official commitment.


I saw that Charlie Chat and it was Charlie himself who made the statement - that being that NBR would be implemented on all Dish DVRs. So if you can't trust or believe the statements made by the head of the company&#8230; then what? Mark has stated in past threads that Charlie's statement was premature and even stupid. But again, if you can't trust the statements of the Chief Officer, who's can you trust? Personally, I don't care about NBR from Dish - it will never be comparable to Tivo. I would just like what we already have to work without having to treat it like some kind of minefield to be traversed - I don't think this is too much to ask for. I have no intention of buying or leasing a 942 as an interim pacifier on the road to mpeg4 nirvana - just a quick read through the ever-growing 942 complaints list forum should serve to convince any 921 owner that Dish's software monkeys are doing a fine job of decaying that receiver into instability too. Nor do I wish for a rush to half-baked, botched software releases which serve to further infuriate an already aggravated customer base.

And that's my two cents worth,

--John


----------



## BobMurdoch

1/3 of what Charlie says never comes to pass. His dates are always off (unless he is announcing a new channel with a firm new start date), his equipment promises much but often falls short, and the big changes he often talks about often don't occur (HD moving to Superdish, etc.)

Charlie shoots from the hip on the chats and gets a LOT of facts wrong.

Then again, his greatest strength has been his ability to swing some amazing deals. The Rainbow 1 and Voom deals, his attempt to takeover D* (which WOULD have succeeded if the Feds (led by Rupert and his politicians indebted to Fox News didn't scotch it), and his ability to make a continuing profit in an industry where everyone else has failed to do so (V*, D*, and Primestar). All everyone could talk about was how D* was going to steamroll E* in HD. Yet here we sit today with E* having a 10 channel lead in that area. It should get even more interesting when teh other 11 V* channels come online this year.


----------



## AVJohnnie

BobMurdoch said:


> Charlie shoots from the hip on the chats and gets a LOT of facts wrong.


Sorry, but I just don't consider that (_his being an historical liar_) an exoneration for making misleading statements through a medium that specifically targets those individuals most likely to be affected by such statements. I agree that Charlie is a loose canon - but once the oats are out of the horse &#8230; well, then what? Same old story, no accountability. Sad, very sad&#8230;


----------



## Mikey

AVJohnnie said:


> Sorry, but I just don't consider that (_being an historical liar_) an exoneration for making misleading statements through a medium that specifically targets those individuals most likely to be affected by such statements. I agree that Charlie is a loose canon - but once the oats are out of the horse &#8230; well, then what? Same old story, no accountability. Sad, very sad&#8230;


What Charlie says on these chats is what he WANTS to do, at that particular time. Reality sometimes interferes with that wish, and sometimes those wishes are overtaken by events, such as the IEEE-1394 interface being squashed by the MPAA threats.

There are some announcements made in the chats, and those are generally correct. Charlie's replies to questions from viewers though, is off-the-cuff. It doesn't carry the same weight.

What you MUST get from E* is listed in your service agreement. Everything else you hear, from a forum, a CSR, or your dog talking to you, should not be taken as a contract.


----------



## AVJohnnie

Mikey said:


> What you MUST get from E* is listed in your service agreement. Everything else you hear, from a forum, a CSR, or your dog talking to you, should not be taken as a contract.


A quick review of the current "Residential Customer Agreement" makes only one reference to PVR equipment. That being item C in Section 4. to wit:

_C. DISH Network reserves the right to alter software in your DISH Network receiver, and provide content to PVR products, through periodic downloads. DISH Network will use commercially reasonable efforts to schedule these downloads in a manner that result in the least amount of interference with or interruption to your Service._

I can find no other specific reference, and absolutely none as to any guarantee for providing the NBR feature(s) for any particular DishPVR unit. So I guess one could safely say that all 921 and 721 DishPVR owners have been selectively discriminated against by Dish policy makers as pertains to the omission (at present) of the NBR feature(s) on those units? And of course that's the out, isn't it - who's to say that they won't do it, some day?

So I must agree, unless the Service Agreement specifically says that a feature is there or will be provided, don't bother looking for it. Oops, forgot about the DishWire promise - oh, but wait, that's okay too, it was only promised in the equipment features list on the Dish Website _(***Enabled via future software upgrade)_ and in the 921 User's Manual _(for future use)_ - but never mentioned in the Service Agreement - So, we're good! :lol:


----------



## socceteer

Sory for my ignorance, but what is NBR..?


----------



## bryan92

Records based on a name such as NCIS, JAG, The Shield, ect.


----------



## kzosat

tnsprin said:


> NBR was originally for all the Currently available (shipping) DVR's then they started back pedeling.


Like they say "talk is cheap". I never saw NBR in writing for the 921. I think they are just gonna ride it out until Mpeg4 comes along (eventhough that may take some time for all the SD receivers), then no one will have a DVR without NBR to complain about.

AVJohnnie makes a good point on the Dishwire issue too, they hyped that up and up and heck mine still has the open ports (supposedly the later models were covered up). But they got scared of all the companies out there quick to sue under DMCA or maybe they just didn't know how to make them work....


----------



## AVJohnnie

socceteer said:


> Sory for my ignorance, but what is NBR..?


NBR is an acronym for _Name Based Recording_, which a TiVo does extremely well, though I sincerely doubt that any efforts by Dish programmers to make their PVRs function at the level of superiority attained by TiVo will ever occur. After all, remember, Dish (Eldon, actually) can't even get the 921 to operate reliably for any substantial duration without the need for nightly re-boots. This too is sad, very, very sad&#8230;


----------



## astrotrf

Ron Barry said:


> ... the fact the 942 exists were all factors contributing to why no NBR on 921. I believe this is the same rational why there will be no NBR on the 721.
> 
> It is my belief NBR was never committed to each of these platforms.


Ron is sort of correct and sort of wrong here. Dish's half-truths and out-and-out lies have contributed much heat and very little light to the topic of NBR on the 921.

See, for example, this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=40297

Aside from Charlie's own statements, which we are to take as merely the ravings of the uninformed, there are the ambiguities of Dish's own web site, as the above thread points out.

Terry (astrotrf)


----------



## David_Levin

What was the topic of this thread again?


----------



## kzosat

David_Levin said:


> What was the topic of this thread again?


Why NBR won't bring world peace.


----------



## tnsprin

David_Levin said:


> What was the topic of this thread again?


In the Title.

We've missed another update.

Personally I disagree with the long delay between releases. They should be able to figure out which fixes are good and don't break anything, and release those one week, and when the next group are ready release those the next week. Packaging everything in a big release is what gave us the release 211(?) which broke so many things at once. Haven't had a big release for 6 months, and only one fix for something that was broken then.


----------



## SimpleSimon

I agree with tnsprin.

Incremental releases are much safer.

Of course, it costs more to do that, so we know it's not going to happen.


----------



## Ron Barry

astrotrf said:


> Ron is sort of correct and sort of wrong here. Dish's half-truths and out-and-out lies have contributed much heat and very little light to the topic of NBR on the 921.
> 
> See, for example, this thread:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=40297
> 
> Aside from Charlie's own statements, which we are to take as merely the ravings of the uninformed, there are the ambiguities of Dish's own web site, as the above thread points out.
> 
> Terry (astrotrf)


Much heat? I would agree with that statment in regards to what happend with the firewire pull back not with NBR on 921. As the thread you pointed to, well when I read that thread orginally I considered it mislink. Does happen on websites from time to time. I have never seen an official word or an official statement commiting to NBR on the 921. THis is of couse up to interpertation but off cuff answers to questions on a Charlie chat and a link on a web site does not constitute as a commitement in my eyes.

Definitely does not help the confusion on the issue, but the fact is as I see it NBR will not be coming to the 921 and based on the MPEG4 receiver and the 921 I personally would feel it is a waste of resources. I am a 921 owner for the record and feel that at the moment resources should be devoted to making the 921 as stable and not rolling in such a big paradagim change to what already seems to be a fragile code base.

As to how to handle the 921 customers that have endured the pain the 921 has placed on them, well if you do a search you could easily find my thoughts on that matter. I definitely have a different few on how Dish should handle their 921 customer base.


----------



## leemathre

Kind of afraid to post this info, but I have been told by my contact at E* that L214 is now scheduled to spool on June 21st. As always, this is a tentative date. Just passing on what I have heard, so don't flame me if it gets changed again please.


----------



## bluegreg

how about they can keep it unless it have channel guide for ota!


----------



## Jason Kragt

leemathre said:


> Kind of afraid to post this info, but I have been told by my contact at E* that L214 is now scheduled to spool on June 21st. As always, this is a tentative date. Just passing on what I have heard, so don't flame me if it gets changed again please.


Don't be afraid to post what you hear! There probably some people here ready to flame you if it doesn't happen exactly on the date you specify, but they are definitely in the minority. The rest of us appreciate information from multiple sources. We have learned (the hard way) that Dish Network does not know how to professionally develop and test software and accept the consequences--such as frequently missed release dates and software releases that create more bugs than they solve. We understand that what you are passing along is only as good as the engineer or manager that told it to you and that with their "shoot from the hip" development and testing processes, along with a shortage of resources, release dates are subject to change day to day, perhaps even hour to hour.


----------



## Nick

bluegreg said:


> I want an update on the SW release! whats happening mark?


Anyone who comes here demanding information, or anything else for that matter, needs to be reminded of a few things.

1. As a member of DBSTalk.com, your presence here is as if you were a guest in someone's home. You don't need to be demanding _anything_.

2.This site is owned and operated by unpaid  volunteers who devote much of their personal time to running this site for the benefit of fans of satellite tv and related topics. They have jobs, families and commutes, just like you.

3. None of the DBSTalk.com staff are employed by, or work at the direction of Echostar or Dishnetwork, nor are they monetarily compensated in any way by Echostar, Dishnetwork or its affiliates. Dishnetwork does not own or control this site or the content, thereon, except that such information provided by Echostar and its employees on certain hardware models, software versions or stated future intentions on the part of Dishnetwork is reviewed, edited and posted in good faith by DBSTalk.com staff for the benefit of our members and guests.

Many statements posted herein are forward-looking in nature, but may be based upon speculation and conjecture. Readers are advised to take such speculation and conjecture with a grain of salt and exercise caution and common sense with regard to making changes in equipment or programming. Any such decisions should be made based on your own research and assessment of current and anticipated conditions.

No warranty as to mercantability or products or services discussed herein for any DBS provider or other such entity is given or implied by DBSTalk.com, its staff or members. All information given here is to be considered unofficial until it is confirmed in writing by DishNetwork on their website www.dishnetwork.com or through other official communication from DishNetwork.

Finally, if you don't like the way product or programming information is posted here, you are welcome to go do you own time-consuming research.


----------



## astrotrf

Nick said:


> Anyone who comes here demanding information, or anything else for that matter, needs to be reminded of a few things.


While I agree with what your post says, let's not over-react to what appears to me to be a half-humorous post requesting information. Read the original message again, but this time close your eyes and pretend you see the poster smiling as he speaks the lines ...

I've said this same sort of thing myself, for humorous effect. Depending on how humor-challenged the reader is, it _can_ come across as hostile. But we all should know that verbal humor doesn't always type out well (and that includes folks who _post_ it as well as those who _read_ it ...).

Terry (astrotrf)


----------



## Nick

astrotrf said:


> While I agree with what your post says, let's not over-react to what appears to me to be a half-humorous post requesting information. Read the original message again, but this time close your eyes and pretend you see the poster smiling as he speaks the lines ...


 :thats: !rolling :lol: :thats: :lol: :thats:

You've *got* to be kidding!  Like that's gonna happen. *NOT!* :glasses:


----------



## SummitAdvantageRetailer

So to stay on topic, it's scheduled to be spooled on 6/21, right?


----------



## JM Anthony

SummitAdvantageRetailer said:


> So to stay on topic, it's scheduled to be spooled on 6/21, right?


Or if you believe the old addage, "A watched pot never boils.", don't think/worry about when it will spool and it will spool sooner rather than later. In fact, THIS, and this alone, explains why L214 has been delayed so long. Too many people are relentlessly watching for it to appear.

So stop watchin', will ya!!!


----------



## Cyclone

I check for updates at every commerical break. Nothing yet.


----------



## Jason Kragt

I think that it is easier to quit smoking than it is to quit looking for software updates.


----------



## ragnarok

From E*'s tech update...(http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/TechDepo.shtml)

6/20/2005: 1652 Software Version L2.14 for DP921 
Effective Tuesday, June 21st, Engineering will begin to spool the FULL PHASE of software version L2.14 for the DP921 receiver. This is primarily a non-forced maintenance release available at ALL satellite locations.

At this time L2.14 will be the valid software version for the DP921 . As always if you encounter any unusual problems please fill out an on-line Uncommon Trend Report and/or contact a CSR II/CSR III/ABA.

...Are we supposed to be able to see this?


----------



## ayalbaram

How did that site become public? it is supposed to be for retailers to help support customers. I can also say L2.14 is now listed as the current s/w ver. in the tech portal for the 921 so I can't imagine it won't spool unless something earthshattering happens tonight.


----------



## bbomar

ayalbaram said:


> How did that site become public? it is supposed to be for retailers to help support customers.


They are showing L2.14 as the current software here:

http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/921.shtml


----------



## ragnarok

ayalbaram said:


> How did that site become public? it is supposed to be for retailers to help support customers.


I got it from http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=72713


----------



## leemathre

Perhaps my source has provided good information. I guess we will know for sure tomorrow.


----------



## Ron Barry

Hmmm Looks like my house might get two software updates tomorrow.. Ofource, things can always change when it comes to software. Looks like this week will be a busy week on the board.


----------



## LASooner

I wonder what all it fixes? or doesn't, as the case may be.


----------



## murphy43

TonyB said:


> I doubt that the 942 is based on the 921 - if it is then the 942 is also doomed - I think we all agree that the 921 is on a downward spiral -its just a question of how steep a spiral.


I've said it before .... and I'll say it again, the 921 is dead. Dish is secretly thanking us fools. We showed them a better receiver was needed. As for us .... only Charlie knows. I will go to Direct before I buy a 942.


----------



## richarda

This is from the echostar techupdate site!


6/20/2005: 1652 Software Version L2.14 for DP921 
Effective Tuesday, June 21st, Engineering will begin to spool the FULL PHASE of software version L2.14 for the DP921 receiver. This is primarily a non-forced maintenance release available at ALL satellite locations. 

At this time L2.14 will be the valid software version for the DP921 . As always if you encounter any unusual problems please fill out an on-line Uncommon Trend Report and/or contact a CSR II/CSR III/ABA. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Allen Noland

richarda said:


> This is from the echostar techupdate site!
> 
> 6/20/2005: 1652 Software Version L2.14 for DP921
> Effective Tuesday, June 21st, Engineering will begin to spool the FULL PHASE of software version L2.14 for the DP921 receiver. This is primarily a non-forced maintenance release available at ALL satellite locations.
> 
> At this time L2.14 will be the valid software version for the DP921 . As always if you encounter any unusual problems please fill out an on-line Uncommon Trend Report and/or contact a CSR II/CSR III/ABA.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It will be interesting to see if this holds up as my information is quite different than this. :nono2:


----------



## leemathre

Allen Noland said:


> It will be interesting to see if this holds up as my information is quite different than this. :nono2:


So, are you saying that your inofrmation is that it will not spool today?


----------



## bluegreg

how different can it be?
1. different version of sw than publicly announced to spool for months!
2. not spool today
3. nothing will ever spool
4. dish gives all 921 owners a new state of the art mpeg 4 pvr and a year of free programming for the BS we all endured!
gtl


----------



## Mark Lamutt

It looks like it's not spooling today. That could change, but not likely.

This delay isn't bug related, though, according to what Allen and I have heard.


----------



## EvanS

Mark Lamutt said:


> It looks like it's not spooling today. That could change, but not likely.
> 
> This delay isn't bug related, though, according to what Allen and I have heard.


Mark,
I am reading this with my eyes closed (which is not easy) and I STILL can't tell if this is intended to be informative or hostile. :lol:


----------



## Mark Lamutt

hostile?


----------



## RocketNJ

I'm a little surprised that Dish does not release smaller incremental software updates instead of a big "let's fix everything" type of release.

Having worked with software updates and patches, it is easier to validate and regression test a couple of changes vs many. Maybe that's why L213 seems to have caused more heartache for some people.

Just a thought.

George


----------



## David_Levin

Was the bug that killed the release last week squashed?


----------



## Jerry G

I was going to take the day off from work today to sit on the couch and wait for the light to start flashing on my 921 and 811. Glad I didn't.


----------



## Larry Caldwell

Mark Lamutt said:


> It looks like it's not spooling today. That could change, but not likely.
> 
> This delay isn't bug related, though, according to what Allen and I have heard.


Sigh. I finally got bit by a bug where it hurts. I missed the start of Swan Lake last night, so I backed up to the start of the program and hit record. I was going to archive it to videotape, for frequent viewing in the future. First, it had multiple sound dropouts and pixellation episodes, a disaster in a production like Swan Lake, and then the recording didn't stop at the end of the program, and resisted all my attempts to stop it. I finally had to do a hard reboot to get the timer to stop. When the system came back up, Swan Lake had disappeared.

At least now I think I know how to reproduce the recording not stopping bug. After hitting record, I proceeded to watch the program from the beginning, instead of fast forwarding to the live portion of the show.


----------



## Bradtothebone

A little OT, but it would definitely be ironic for me if 214 spools today. Either my DP34 or my DP Twin apparently bit the dust sometime yesterday. All three receivers searching for signal, and Test Switch shows "no switch installed." I guess I've got some "investigative" work to do tonight.

Brad


----------



## SummitAdvantageRetailer

Larry Caldwell said:


> Sigh. I finally got bit by a bug where it hurts. I missed the start of Swan Lake last night, so I backed up to the start of the program and hit record. I was going to archive it to videotape, for frequent viewing in the future. First, it had multiple sound dropouts and pixellation episodes, a disaster in a production like Swan Lake, and then the recording didn't stop at the end of the program, and resisted all my attempts to stop it. I finally had to do a hard reboot to get the timer to stop. When the system came back up, Swan Lake had disappeared.
> 
> At least now I think I know how to reproduce the recording not stopping bug. After hitting record, I proceeded to watch the program from the beginning, instead of fast forwarding to the live portion of the show.


There's a workaround to your bug. Instead of doing a hard boot, do a check switch. That'll kill all the recordings that are happening at the time of the check switch. I had to resort to this as I thought that a hard reboot would erase the current recording. Doing the check switch just stops the recording and doesn't delete it.


----------



## Pils

I am relatively new to the 921 but I had a little bizarre behavior. So I went and reset the box with the power button (hold 5 secs) and now the box has a rapid flashing red light. I am hoping this means a software download of 214, not sure though. I tried searching throught the forums but I have dialup so please excuse my ignorance on the red flash. But when I called E*, they said it meant software update so I hope this is true. The box was at 213 before this. Been over 20 minutes and they said probably 40 minutes.


----------



## Rotryrkt

Pils said:


> I am relatively new to the 921 but I had a little bizarre behavior. So I went and reset the box with the power button (hold 5 secs) and now the box has a rapid flashing red light. I am hoping this means a software download of 214, not sure though. I tried searching throught the forums but I have dialup so please excuse my ignorance on the red flash. But when I called E*, they said it meant software update so I hope this is true. The box was at 213 before this. Been over 20 minutes and they said probably 40 minutes.


The green power button light flashes when you get a SW update. Once again E* CSRs don't know squat. You need to do a hard reset by pulling the power cord and let it die for a few minutes. Don't know for sure what a flashing red light means. Try the hard reset, I'll bet it goes away.


----------



## 921Blues

bbomar said:


> They are showing L2.14 as the current software here:
> 
> http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/921.shtml


I am totally confused now. Why is the above link now showing L2.15 as the current software version and L2.13 as the previous?

Cripes....this is ridiculous. I love the fact that guys like Allen are keeping us as up to date as possible, but it really stinks when the Echostar websites keep saying things that aren't true!

921Blues


----------



## Mark Lamutt

L215 is going to be the next version now. L214 was scrapped this morning. But, as I said this morning, it wasn't scrapped due to a bug. The difference between L214 and L215 is going to be very minor (but necessary now) and transparent to the user.


----------



## Jerry G

921Blues said:


> I am totally confused now. Why is the above link now showing L2.15 as the current software version and L2.13 as the previous?


Probably a last minute untested fix to prevent 2.14 from making our 921's go up in smoke and burning down our houses. I think a read about an exclusion in my homeowners policy stating I wasn't covered for any damage to my home caused by Dish equipment. DirecTV equipment is OK, but Dish is excluded.


----------



## leemathre

L2.15 is the new label for the next update and it is now scheduled for Thursday. Again, this is info from my contact at E*. If this one does not go on time, I will stop posting information I get from my source.


----------



## Rodney

Disregard


----------



## leemathre

Mark Lamutt said:


> L215 is going to be the next version now. L214 was scrapped this morning. But, as I said this morning, it wasn't scrapped due to a bug. The difference between L214 and L215 is going to be very minor (but necessary now) and transparent to the user.


According to my source, what L2.15 has that L2.14 did not is"additional satellite support for satellite orbital slots to be used in the near future."


----------



## 921Blues

Ok...that's fine. At this point, since my 921 has been reliable enough lately to keep me from rebooting every day, I'm good. I'd rather guys like Mark and Allen keep us in the loop - even if the status keeps changing. To me, silence is more deafening....

921Blues


----------



## Geoff Goodfellow

Established in the late 1980's Eldon Technology is now recognised as one of Europe's foremost electronics design houses, providing electronic design services in a wide rage of areas.

Based in 4000 square metres of purpose built laboratory space located in Steeton, West Yorkshire, in the United Kingdom, Eldon Technology Limited is historically renowned for designing low cost, high reliability products for mass production, applying the very latest technology to produce economical, practical and reliable designs for both electronic and mechanical assemblies and the often associated software.

Eldon's speciality is providing full turnkey product development particularly suited to high volume production. Our designs are advanced, often using the latest technologies, yet very cost effective and practical.

... The History of Services, Skill Base, Core Skills, et al continues at http://www.eldon.co.uk/profile.html


----------



## RocketNJ

Geoff Goodfellow said:


> Eldon Technology Limited is historically renowned for designing low cost, high reliability products for mass production, applying the very latest technology to produce economical, practical and reliable designs for both electronic and mechanical assemblies and the often associated software.


LOL - Reliable????

Oh yeah, it reliably reproduces certain bugs.


----------



## UT_Texan

Mark Lamutt said:


> L215 is going to be the next version now. L214 was scrapped this morning. But, as I said this morning, it wasn't scrapped due to a bug. The difference between L214 and L215 is going to be very minor (but necessary now) and transparent to the user.


Just out of curiousity what prompts the version number change? I ask because I assume all this time it has been 214, with fixes constantly being added. What fix/change prompted the number change?

thanks


----------



## Jon Spackman

ok, ok lets kill the eldon bashing before it really takes off. 

Back to the topic, l215 might come thursday? So the REAL hold up on this deal was that dish was adding some new sat support to the software......Seems like the 921 in the same zone as the 6000---updates are few and far between now.

Jon


----------



## Pils

Pils said:


> I am relatively new to the 921 but I had a little bizarre behavior. So I went and reset the box with the power button (hold 5 secs) and now the box has a rapid flashing red light. I am hoping this means a software download of 214, not sure though. I tried searching throught the forums but I have dialup so please excuse my ignorance on the red flash. But when I called E*, they said it meant software update so I hope this is true. The box was at 213 before this. Been over 20 minutes and they said probably 40 minutes.


I knew the red light was a bad sign, I always give this company too much credit. The CSR was incorrect and I kept asking them if they were sure the red blinking meant software download. Sure enough, it means hard disk failure. I had this box activated for 2 weeks and today it was making horrible sounds and then the blinking red. The box is not enclosed in anything so it is well vented. Sorry to disappoint others in thinking it may be downloading a new update. I was lucky enough to have absolutely no problems prior to this. Wish I could just replace the harddrive because the rest worked well so we will wait and see for a replacement. Apparently I will be called back in 48 hours to see if I can get it replaced. Sorry for the rant, just wanted to inform those of the dreaded red flashing light.


----------



## DonLandis

Looks like we all, including the beta group will get a version of code that isn't going to be adequately tested. 

E*: "We didn't realize that when we added xyz, that it would affect ABC and that is why you experienced the video jitters. We saw that a week later and had the fix for it immediately after we realized what went wrong." 
Me: OK that's good, why haven't you sent it out yet? It's been a month and a half with these jitters. 
E* "Well we need to be sure so it is going to beta next week!"
... 2 months later we finally get the beta tested fix for the jitters.

deja vu- Here we go again! So tell us Mark, Allen, how long have you "beta" guys been testing this new satellite code as it is wrapped into the L214 you've been testing and debugging for 3 months? 2 hours? Not at all? Here we go again. 
Looks like Eldon likes to repeat their worst mistakes. Smart! Test code for 3 months, get ready to release it but make a major change to it's features at the last minute, untested, and release it to the masses to see if it works.

Get ready gang. Sounds like we're all to become alpha testers for Eldon soon again. Glad I have my TIVO working!


----------



## JM Anthony

DonLandis said:


> . . . Get ready gang. Sounds like we're all to become alpha testers for Eldon soon again. Glad I have my TIVO working!


But Don, look at the bright side. Only girlie girls want technology that works all the time. Thanks to E*, you too can be a manly man!! Rather than whine like a girlie girl, embrace the 921 for the opportunity it represents.

214, 215, whatever; for the last month or so my 921 has been rock solid. No problems, none, nada, zippo. Good karma. No juju.


----------



## Jerry G

DonLandis said:


> deja vu- Here we go again! So tell us Mark, Allen, how long have you "beta" guys been testing this new satellite code as it is wrapped into the L214 you've been testing and debugging for 3 months? 2 hours? Not at all? Here we go again.
> Looks like Eldon likes to repeat their worst mistakes. Smart! Test code for 3 months, get ready to release it but make a major change to it's features at the last minute, untested, and release it to the masses to see if it works.
> 
> Get ready gang. Sounds like we're all to become alpha testers for Eldon soon again. Glad I have my TIVO working!


That's exactly what I was thinking. How in the world could new software be ready to spool, and then, seemingly at the last minute, be aborted to add what would appear to be crucial and necessary code, and expect to be released, what tomorrow, and be stable? This would seem to be the standard MO for the 921 software, which has lead to one disaster after another.

I was somewhat nervously awaiting 2.14, hoping I could begin to gain the confidence that I could reliably record two shows at the same time, or two successive shows on the same or different channels, something I've been afraid to do for months now. Now I hear that some new code has suddenly been added. And I'm supposed to feel comfortable receiving this untested code. Damn, why doesn't the 921 have the same option to NOT accept new code that other STBs have. No way do I want this new code without it being tested for at least 3 weeks. Don't do this Dish. Don't make this new software available until you thoroughly tested it!


----------



## SummitAdvantageRetailer

Last minute pulls on the software really is poor management. What bugs or features can prompt last minute pulls other than bad communication and decision-making? E* should know better than to keep on holding the release of new software just because they want to add fixes to it. You can do that if and when your current software is usable but it simply isn't to many users. I don't think too many of us are uncomfortable about getting it delayed until Thursday, but if it gets crippling bugs AGAIN after a few days of its release, it'll clearly demonstrate Eldon's INABILITY to know the root problems and write appropriate software that fixes the problems. Some people claim bad hardware but if after ALL this time the software isn't bug-free as it should be, blood will boil.


----------



## CRL1

Just found this info on the web at the following site:

http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/TechDepo.shtml

"6/20/2005: 1652 Software Version L2.14 for DP921

Effective Tuesday, June 21st, Engineering will begin to spool the FULL PHASE of software version L2.14 for the DP921 receiver. This is primarily a non-forced maintenance release available at ALL satellite locations.

At this time L2.14 will be the valid software version for the DP921 . As always if you encounter any unusual problems please fill out an on-line Uncommon Trend Report and/or contact a CSR II/CSR III/ABA. "

Has anybody seen their 214 update


----------



## Eagles

CRL1 said:


> Just found this info on the web at the following site:
> 
> http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/TechDepo.shtml
> 
> "6/20/2005: 1652 Software Version L2.14 for DP921
> 
> Effective Tuesday, June 21st, Engineering will begin to spool the FULL PHASE of software version L2.14 for the DP921 receiver. This is primarily a non-forced maintenance release available at ALL satellite locations.
> 
> At this time L2.14 will be the valid software version for the DP921 . As always if you encounter any unusual problems please fill out an on-line Uncommon Trend Report and/or contact a CSR II/CSR III/ABA. "
> 
> Has anybody seen their 214 update


Old news. Have you been following THIS THREAD
L214 has been scrapped for L215. Rumor has it spooling tomorrow.


----------



## lujan

Mark Lamutt said:


> L215 is going to be the next version now. L214 was scrapped this morning. But, as I said this morning, it wasn't scrapped due to a bug. The difference between L214 and L215 is going to be very minor (but necessary now) and transparent to the user.


Why doesn't E* update the website? It still says L214 was spooling yesterday.


----------



## Allen Noland

I think the changes that are being made cannot be tested by the beta group because it will require simulated satellite signal - since the new satellite locations don't even exist now. (this is speculation on my part).


----------



## BobMurdoch

OK. I'll ask the stupid question.......

WHY are they holding up a release to add support for something that doesn't exist yet? Why not add it later when they are actually ABOUT to need the adjustment? Why risk more 921 returns from ZSR fried hard drives and the like while they delay?

Oh wait, I'm sorry. I forgot about the definition of stress....... The physical state that occurs as the human brain is expecting irrational decision makers to make rational decisions. My bad.


----------



## invaliduser88

Hey Bob, your thinking too much. Just put on the 921 Crash Dummy helmet and get ready with with the rest of us...:lol:


----------



## Jerry G

BobMurdoch said:


> OK. I'll ask the stupid question.......
> 
> WHY are they holding up a release to add support for something that doesn't exist yet? Why not add it later when they are actually ABOUT to need the adjustment? Why risk more 921 returns from ZSR fried hard drives and the like while they delay?


That's the same question I was going to ask. I can think of only one logical answer. Dish has no intention of issuing any more updates for the 921. This is the last--for better or worse (I'll bet on the worse). It this wasn't the case, they would have released 2.14, made sure it was stable, and then add the additional satellite capacity later when it was needed.


----------



## Jerry G

Look for a thread titled,

"I want an update on the SW release!"

As you'd expect, it contains discussion about 921 updates.


----------



## Slordak

If it's the last update we're going to get (barring "emergencies"), then I hope it's a good one. I don't know how many times I've sworn at the 921 in disgust over the "slow motion skip bug".

In any case, I have a rule now: No overlapping timers, ever. I treat my 921 as if it has only one tuner, and in exchange, it doesn't screw itself up and threaten to delete all of the existing recordings. Not a great arrangement, but better than the alternative.


----------



## Jerry G

Slordak said:


> In any case, I have a rule now: No overlapping timers, ever. I treat my 921 as if it has only one tuner, and in exchange, it doesn't screw itself up and threaten to delete all of the existing recordings. Not a great arrangement, but better than the alternative.


Sadly, that's exactly how I treat my 921. I'm even afraid to do consecutive timers, even without any overlap. But this is not what I paid for. If the next software update doesn't fix this and restore the ability and our confidence to record two shows at once, overlap timers, etc., it's time for every single one of us who are affected and bothered by this problem to bombard Dish with calls demanding that our 921 be replaced with a 942.

Dish has already misled us with their 921 false advertising, ie no FireWire. They advertise that the 921 can record two shows at the same time. If it can't, and it can't be fixed, Dish should feel morally obligated to replace our 921 with a machine that does work. But wait, Dish isn't a moral company, so what am I talking about?


----------



## BobMurdoch

invaliduser88 said:


> Hey Bob, your thinking too much. Just put on the 921 Crash Dummy helmet and get ready with with the rest of us...:lol:


Sorry, I forgot my helmet once or twice before a crash, and I haven't been as sharp since.


----------



## Larry

Jerry G said:


> Look for a thread titled,
> 
> "I want an update on the SW release!"
> 
> As you'd expect, it contains discussion about 921 updates.


Or lack of same. :nono2:


----------



## DonLandis

Allen Noland said:


> I think the changes that are being made cannot be tested by the beta group because it will require simulated satellite signal - since the new satellite locations don't even exist now. (this is speculation on my part).


Glad you said it Allen. I was thinking it but didn't want to go too far into guessing these things. So, the point remains, why add this code to what we believe is or should be well tested L214 now? Just go with what has been tested and add that code later when it has been tested and is needed. So it delays some action to move programming to these new sat orbits. Also, thanks for confirming that the beta team HAS NOT tested this L215. Figures!


----------



## gonnabrich

This is my last try for this machine. If L215 does not fix the problems that have plagued it since its inception, mine is going back to Costco.


----------



## Jon Spackman

Ditto, back to costco it goes.

Jon


----------



## Cyclone

Funny, I always check on the 921 stack at my costco everytime I visit there. They had 12. Then they had none. Then last week when I was there they had one. It was re-taped.


----------



## UT_Texan

Slordak said:


> If it's the last update we're going to get (barring "emergencies"), then I hope it's a good one. I don't know how many times I've sworn at the 921 in disgust over the "slow motion skip bug".


I too have complained about this and Mark's response was basically is that all you have to worry about. There are bigger bugs to be fixed. I am fairly certain this problem won't be addressed in 215 and so from the sound of things it won't ever get fixed


----------



## BobaBird

Allen Noland said:


> I think the changes that are being made cannot be tested by the beta group because it will require simulated satellite signal - since the new satellite locations don't even exist now. (this is speculation on my part).


The rush to add support for services that won't be offered for who knows how long would seem to indicate that there is no intent to provide other fixes or features for even longer. Why not deliver L214 now as scheduled (um, make that 3+ weeks later than scheduled), wait for reaction, then release L215 with the fixes to L214 plus support for the new satellite slot?


----------



## Allen Noland

BobaBird said:


> The rush to add support for services that won't be offered for who knows how long would seem to indicate that there is no intent to provide other fixes or features for even longer. Why not deliver L214 now as scheduled (um, make that 3+ weeks later than scheduled), wait for reaction, then release L215 with the fixes to L214 plus support for the new satellite slot?


In case you hadn't noticed, almost all other receivers have received updates in the last few weeks. Makes me think these changes are more important than we realize.



> If it's the last update we're going to get (barring "emergencies"), then I hope it's a good one. I don't know how many times I've sworn at the 921 in disgust over the "slow motion skip bug".


The entire "trick play" process has been cleaned up. I have a 721 as well, and my 921 skip forward function is nearly has clean has the 721, still a tiny pause, but much much much better than before. I think this will be the most obvious change in the day to day operation of the 921.

And I know of 2 features being enabled on the 921 in the next release. 1 has been discussed already; the other one I'm going to keep to myself for now, but it is a feature available on other dish DVR's.


----------



## Bismarck

I can't stand it anymore. Every other receiver has gotten an update recently. The early adopters of the 921 paid $999. Why are we the last to get an update?


----------



## SummitAdvantageRetailer

Allen Noland said:


> In case you hadn't noticed, almost all other receivers have received updates in the last few weeks. Makes me think these changes are more important than we realize.
> 
> The entire "trick play" process has been cleaned up. I have a 721 as well, and my 921 skip forward function is nearly has clean has the 721, still a tiny pause, but much much much better than before. I think this will be the most obvious change in the day to day operation of the 921.
> 
> And I know of 2 features being enabled on the 921 in the next release. 1 has been discussed already; the other one I'm going to keep to myself for now, but it is a feature available on other dish DVR's.


Next release as in 215 today or 216 later? And I guess the one that's been discussed already is DISH Home on Ch. 100. The other feature... is it on EVERY OTHER Dish DVR?


----------



## HailScroob

I was just about to ask the same question.

It's Thursday, but I have yet to see a "My Green Light Is Blinking!!" post.

So what's the deal? Are we looking at yet another aborted 921 software release?


----------



## LASooner

> The other feature... is it on EVERY OTHER Dish DVR?


Ooooh! Oooh! Is it the ability to record? That would be cool. What do I win? :grin:


----------



## Jason Kragt

LASooner said:


> Ooooh! Oooh! Is it the ability to record? That would be cool. What do I win? :grin:


This post made my day!


----------



## Pils

HailScroob said:


> I have yet to see a "My Green Light Is Blinking!!" post.


I have the "My Red Light is Blinking!!" Unfortunately, that just means my unit died.


----------



## boylehome

Allen Noland said:


> And I know of 2 features being enabled on the 921 in the next release. 1 has been discussed already; the other one I'm going to keep to myself for now, but it is a feature available on other dish DVR's.


 Here is my guess:
1. I'm not sure what it will be, maybe that karaoke thing or the, "Clock Channel  ?
2. I suspect Dish Home.

I think the reason the download was pulled is that they are adding orbit spot 129 to the list of satellites in Point Dish, which some models already have, and possibly any other satellite location that may be used in the near future.


----------



## ebaltz

So today is Thursday...waiting...


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Somewhere just after 4pm MDT is the next available window for uplink to the satellites. But, I don't have information either way if it'll get sent in the next window or not.


----------



## boylehome

Mark Lamutt said:


> Somewhere just after 4pm MDT is the next available window for uplink to the satellites. But, I don't have information either way if it'll get sent in the next window or not.


Sounds like a NASA launch process :eek2: Now that we have a window I hope that no one slams it shut before the launch


----------



## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> Somewhere just after 4pm MDT is the next available window for uplink to the satellites. But, I don't have information either way if it'll get sent in the next window or not.


Mark, You must be a huge fan of and a big believer in foreplay :lol:


----------



## Mark Lamutt

:lol:

No one's waiting for this one, are they... :lol: Just trying to say there's no reason to sit next to your 921s waiting all afternoon, as the earliest anything could happen would be 3+ hours from now.


----------



## Grandude

Thanks, Mark, I guess I'll go take a nap for a while.


----------



## SummitAdvantageRetailer

Grandude said:


> Thanks, Mark, I guess I'll go take a nap for a while.


Yeah, me too. :lol:


----------



## Geoff Goodfellow

while you all were napping :lol:  , i just noticed that the Tech Update listing of the upcoming 921 release L2.14 (which was there eariler today) has been removed from http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/TechUpdates.shtml


----------



## bbomar

Geoff Goodfellow said:


> while you all were napping :lol: , i just noticed that the Tech Update listing of the upcoming 921 release L2.14 (which was there eariler today) has been removed from http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/TechUpdates.shtml


We're also back to L2.13 here:

http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/921.shtml

Maybe not a good sign?


----------



## lapplegate

Geoff Goodfellow said:


> while you all were napping :lol:  , i just noticed that the Tech Update listing of the upcoming 921 release L2.14 (which was there eariler today) has been removed from http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/TechUpdates.shtml


And the current software version has been revised back to 2.13. It had been at 2.15.

http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/921.shtml

Looks like plenty of nap time will be availible, before any upgrades.


----------



## elmc

I am in lower MI and a pistons fan. Being one of the few people with a HDTV, I am having a few people over to enjoy the game w/ me. Now that the update may happen today I am sooo nervous that I may miss a part of the game because of a freeze-up caused by the 921 downloading the update. 

1. If I leave it on, will it wait until later tonight to download after I shut it off? How does that work?
I can just see it downloading and reseting itself during the final minutes of the game.

2. I have been delaying the game 1 hour or so in previous games so I could zip thru the game faster, should I chance that tonight?

3. I have been watching the NBA finals on WJRT-12(DTV-36) in MI. For 3 games the sound has been broadcast in 5-channel Dolby Digital, but only using the front L/R speakers, and the other 3 speakers are "dead". This was annoying! My receiver thought it was receiving 5 channels, and therefore I couldn't use Dolby Pro-logic. The 3 other games the sound was just a digital stereo signal that I could use my Dolby Pro-logic feature. I have emailed WJRT twice with no answer. Has anyone else experienced this? Is ABC even broadcasting in 5.1 Dolby Digital?


----------



## bbomar

elmc said:


> I am in lower MI and a pistons fan. Being one of the few people with a HDTV, I am having a few people over to enjoy the game w/ me. Now that the update may happen today I am sooo nervous that I may miss a part of the game because of a freeze-up caused by the 921 downloading the update.


In the past, when I got a download and the receiver was on (I leave it on
all the time), the software would show as available when I checked for
a software update in the menu. However, it would not install until the
receiver was turned off. As long as you leave it on I don't think you have
anything to worry about.


----------



## ayalbaram

4pm mst anyone have a blinking green light yet?


----------



## LASooner

> Mark, You must be a huge fan of and a big believer in foreplay


Being told to wait 3 hours and still nothing happens..... yep... exactly like foreplay.


----------



## boylehome

How long is the, "window" open?


----------



## erh1117

A few questions about E's approach to this:

Why the roulette with the date and time?
Why the big secrecy with the date and time?
Why not simply announce that they hope to release 215 or 214 an when they expect to release it and what it will fix?

BTW, I am a lawyer and understand NDA's and corporate fear of liability for promises not kept (though E seems not to be much fazed by that -- see e.g. NBR). I just don't see any liability for a public announcement of what to expect and when to expect it. Frankly, these guys at E only inflame the situation by their actions. A more transparent process could IMHO only improve our respect for them.


----------



## Tomos

I'm guessing they meant 4 pm or so Hawaii time eh.


----------



## DonLandis

erh1117 said:


> A few questions about E's approach to this:
> 
> Why the roulette with the date and time?
> Why the big secrecy with the date and time?
> Why not simply announce that they hope to release 215 or 214 an when they expect to release it and what it will fix?
> 
> BTW, I am a lawyer and understand NDA's and corporate fear of liability for promises not kept (though E seems not to be much fazed by that -- see e.g. NBR). I just don't see any liability for a public announcement of what to expect and when to expect it. Frankly, these guys at E only inflame the situation by their actions. A more transparent process could IMHO only improve our respect for them.


Gosh, you must be a really new-bee lawyer if you have to ask those questions. I have a simple answer for you and I'm no lawyer. I'm just someone who understands real world business. That is, how things work when you have people involved and who can't, won't, are afraid to make a decision without the approval of a committee, unanimously.

Are you ready? _"They simply don't know!"_ People who are telling you here on this forum are offering what they either suspect will happen or relaying what they have heard from someone else who, "simply doesn't know" Then when it finally does happen the reason is someone who has not been really involved, gets a status report, makes a snap decision to release it and the ones who make that person's wishes so, quickly execute the upload before they change their mind. 
The new software will come without warning, like it has in the past. It will probably not fix what we expect it to fix and may break other things that once worked. 
Nothing strikes more fear into a techie's work progress than the thought that they will be second guessed by some lawyer who's sole purpose is to make people suffer financially for their business decisions.

Hey, I don't mean to be picking on you but I had a bad/good day and it was all due to a lawyer who has been working hard at holding up progress on a product approval everybody except the lawyer has approved. And, it wasn't the liability issues either but rather trying to fix something that wasn't broke in the first place. Finally the one in charge made a decision to go with what we had since the hold up was determined to be nothing more than just a hold up. I couldn't help but relate that to what is happening here.


----------



## invaliduser88

Tomos said:


> I'm guessing they ment 4 pm or so Hawaii time eh.


Did they say what year? 2006, 2007....:grin:


----------



## jal

Mark, how does the "window" work? Why can't Dish send it whenever Dish feels like sending it?


----------



## jim98604

Tune in next week? For another exciting game of "When Will It Rain 2.15? or could that be 2.16?  :dozey:


----------



## richarda

Did somebody forget to open the window?


----------



## AVJohnnie

richarda said:


> Did somebody forget to open the window?


Sure smells that way, doesn't it &#8230; :lol:


----------



## erh1117

DonLandis said:


> Gosh, you must be a really new-bee lawyer if you have to ask those questions.


Don:

If newbie is 25 years, then I'm a newbie. My post was not intended to generate sarcasm directed to me or general lawyer-bashing.


----------



## Tdvbaja

I thought I should share the follow e-mails that I received today.



> Thursday, June 23, 2005 1:40 PM
> 
> Tim,
> 
> This software release has been delayed.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Customer Care Web Team
> EchoStar Satellite L.L.C.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AA
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 8:56 AM
> To: 'Tim
> Subject: RE: DP921
> 
> Tim,
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> 
> The latest information we have is that it has/will spool today.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Customer Care Web Team
> EchoStar Satellite L.L.C.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 8:34 AM
> To: Tech Training
> Subject: DP921
> 
> When is this going to Happen??
> 
> 6/20/2005: 1652 Software Version L2.14 for DP921
> 
> Effective Tuesday, June 21st, Engineering will begin to spool the FULL PHASE of software version L2.14 for the DP921 receiver. This is primarily a non-forced maintenance release available at ALL satellite locations.
> 
> At this time L2.14 will be the valid software version for the DP921 . As always if you encounter any unusual problems please fill out an on-line Uncommon Trend Report and/or contact a CSR II/CSR III/ABA.


----------



## bhawley

DonLandis said:


> Hey, I don't mean to be picking on you but I had a bad/good day and it was all due to a lawyer who has been working hard at holding up progress on a product approval everybody except the lawyer has approved.


Time for a beer, Don


----------



## Mark Lamutt

I don't know how this all works, but have been told that there's a morning window and an afternoon window that the software can be uplinked to the satellites, and that's it. If they miss one window, they have to wait until the next one.


----------



## DonLandis

Mark- some time ago I was talking to a D* engineer who does it, Gosh must have been 5 years ago now, but then I was told they had a "window" as well and it had to do with work load at the RF center to add it into the stream. Nothing to do with rocket science but more to do with work load scheduling in their department. At that time the group that uploaded the upgrades worked the graveyard shift. Then one week they shifted the group to afternoons and instead of 4AM for the upgrades to hit it went to 4PM. Maybe this is how E* works as well.


----------



## Rodney

One would have to conclude, if the 1:40 PM time posted in the email by Tdvbaja is correct, that E* had scrubbed the update well before the afternoon uplink window had arrived.


----------



## David_Levin

erh1117 said:


> Why the roulette with the date and time?


I view it from an Engineers perspective.....
There's the date the managers want to hear....
There's the date we THINK it can really get done...

Then, finally, there's the date it actually happens.

Mark and Allen are getting ESTIMATED future release dates from valid sources.

Any date further in the future then "now" assumes that nothing unexpected happens (we Engineers hate assuming that something will go wrong).

I appreciate the information we get, but we must keep it in perspective.

I agree that the updates for the 921 are taking WAY too long, but I'm certainly not surprised at this point.


----------



## Tdvbaja

Another reply:



> We were just given TBD but I'm guessing for late next week.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Customer Care Web Team
> EchoStar Satellite L.L.C.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 7:32 PM
> To: AA
> Subject: Re: DP921
> 
> Thank you for the reply -- any idea how long the delay will be?


----------



## JM Anthony

Interesting discussion, particularly the last part of this thread. I'm sure there's a lot of complexity behind the scenes that none of us could ever fully appreciate. Communication is the root of so many problems. It's too bad E* doesn't do a better job of keeping its customers informed about s/w updates. It's not like these are trade secrets or anything. In my mind, it should be part of their customer retention strategy. Not rocket science.


----------



## Rodney

What is TBD?


----------



## BobMurdoch

to be determined...... ie. we don't know


----------



## Ron Barry

David_Levin said:


> I view it from an Engineers perspective.....
> There's the date the managers want to hear....
> There's the date we THINK it can really get done...
> 
> Then, finally, there's the data it actually happens.
> 
> Mark and Allen are getting ESTIMATED future release dates from valid sources.
> 
> Any date further in the future then "now" assumes that nothing unexpected happens (we Engineers hate assuming that something will go wrong).
> 
> I appreciate the information we get, but we must keep it in perspective.
> 
> I agree that the updates for the 921 are taking WAY too long, but I'm certainly not surprised at this point.


Excellent Post David... This is very true and I have always said that software development is an art more than a science. The software release process is a complex one depending on the company and there are a lot of hands in the pie. In a lot of companies anyone can decide the pie is not ready. At least that has been my experience.


----------



## bluegreg

they don't care about us.


----------



## JPC

Ron / David,

All the more reason(s) NOT to post a release date! The only thing worse than a long wait is a long wait followed by another one.


----------



## LASooner

Ron Barry said:


> Excellent Post David... This is very true and I have always said that software development is an art more than a science.


I've worked in the video game industry for over 9 years, and more often than not we've hit our target ship date. The difference is, consequences. There are no major consequences if the Eldon guys miss their ship date, because these are version fixes to the sat box equivalent of the Amiga computer, an obsolete box that's still usable, but not economically viable. There is no real insentive for them to get this done on time, because they know that E* is not going to allocate more engineers for a dead project, and they know until the MPEG 4 switch is complete they will have to be retained for future 'fixes'.

Art is the visual expression of passion, is what you've seen out the 921 development team any indication they are passionate about their work? :nono:


----------



## DonLandis

BobMurdoch said:


> to be determined...... ie. we don't know


LOL!

Should I have my hearing checked? I keep hearing echos.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

JPC said:


> Ron / David,
> 
> All the more reason(s) NOT to post a release date! The only thing worse than a long wait is a long wait followed by another one.


All the more reason to NOT read threads like this one, then!


----------



## ebaltz

Any chance of a spool today?


----------



## Ron Barry

LASooner said:


> I've worked in the video game industry for over 9 years, and more often than not we've hit our target ship date. The difference is, consequences. There are no major consequences if the Eldon guys miss their ship date, because these are version fixes to the sat box equivalent of the Amiga computer, an obsolete box that's still usable, but not economically viable. There is no real insentive for them to get this done on time, because they know that E* is not going to allocate more engineers for a dead project, and they know until the MPEG 4 switch is complete they will have to be retained for future 'fixes'.
> 
> Art is the visual expression of passion, is what you've seen out the 921 development team any indication they are passionate about their work? :nono:


Well I have to partially disagree that the difference between your experience and Eldon's is consequences. There is a lot of reasons why dates slip. One of things that your industry does not have to deal with as much is the hardware component of the equation. The second piece is that generally the tools are not as sophisticated and depending on the environment this can entry in the bottom line when a product gets done.

I have worked both at the enterprise level development using Java and have worked at the embedded space using C (My guess more similar to the issues Eldon faces). These two environments are totally different and have totally different issues and levels of perdictability. In my opinion this differs from company to company. Consequences may be a component of the equation, but my guess is there is a lot more other reasons why we have not seen an update. Some may be political, some my be resource related, and others are technical. It is not just about the consequences at the end. As a developer myself, When the team is working towards a goal, consequences of hitting that goal my be in the back of the mind but definitely is not the only thing we focus on.

As to Art and Passion, my Art reference was mainly related to the fact "Art is done when it is done" and you can't perdict accurately when that occurs. Yes software is also a creative process, but my reference was not in regards to passion. Specially in the case of patches. Defects roll in as you are fixing bugs and new bugs are created along the process.

Bottom line here is that we don't know what goes on behind closed doors and a lot of this is speculation on our parts based on our background. As Mark pointed out, release date info is a double edge sword and it is definitely getting very sharp on one end and I personally I think Dish should try and keep this info confidential. As I have said, too many people get annoyed when delays occur. People have definitely the right to vent frustration about the quality of code they have seen on some of the Dish releases, However, in terms of software updates they should come when they are ready, and personally I try not to get too upset when things slip. I see it as the nature of beast, but maybe in your world that does not occur. In mine, it does and yes my team and I have passion for our product. Yes I am waiting for 215 and I hope it will solve my issues. It will come when it comes. In the meantime, I will anxiously await its arrival but since my house is made of glass I am not going to toss rocks while I wait.


----------



## Larry Caldwell

bluegreg said:


> they don't care about us.


I get that all the time, people accusing me of not caring about them, when there is no reason I should. They always seem shocked when I admit that I **don't** care. If you want someone who cares, call your mother.

I suspect the reason the software update is delayed is for personal reasons, like critical personnel going on vacation, or someone with a family emergency, or even a late case of the flu. It is not a time-critical project. Nobody is going to cancel their Belize scuba trip because the work's not done. It will still be there when they get back. Meanwhile, the remaining crew can dig into other sections of code.

Chill.


----------



## UT_Texan

Lets take a poll to see


----------



## Eagles

UT_Texan said:


> Lets take a poll to see


You should of put "Given up thinking about it, when it comes it comes" as an option


----------



## JPC

Mark Lamutt said:


> All the more reason to NOT read threads like this one, then!


It must be the entertainment value...


----------



## Mark Lamutt

(Not directed at Eagles specifically...)

Keep the discussion to the other threads, please, or I'll close this one.


----------



## Rodney

Ron Barry said:


> As Mark pointed out, release date info is a double edge sword and it is definitely getting very sharp on one end and I personally I think Dish should try and keep this info confidential.


I agree missing a release date can cause some to become upset but there are legitimate reasons for not keeping this information confidential. Wednesday evening I was working with the E* department that handels replacements for defective 921 receivers. I was advised that one of my issues should be resolved by L2.15 which was to be released Thursday morning. For my second issue I was advised to use L2.15 for a few days to see if the issue was resolved. In this particular case I believe there was a legitimate reason to advise the customer of an impending update.


----------



## Ron Barry

That is the double edge sword.  However, lots of times that is the canned answer when an update is coming up. Get a new baseline and if the problem is still there then make the swap. Hopefully this is not in your case, but it does happen.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

Dish would be better off just replacing all these 921s with working 942 models and then they could fire Eldon and quit working on software updates for a dead model. Of course by next year when mpeg4 gets finally going they will be replacing all the 921s and 942 receivers anyway ,to do mpeg4 versions of the 942. So I guess Dish says what the hell, it is only 6 months more and then it won't matter. They did say that hd customers would be the first ones to get upgrades to mpeg 4 version receivers.


----------



## Larry Caldwell

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Dish would be better off just replacing all these 921s with working 942 models and then they could fire Eldon and quit working on software updates for a dead model. Of course by next year when mpeg4 gets finally going they will be replacing all the 921s and 942 receivers anyway ,to do mpeg4 versions of the 942. So I guess Dish says what the hell, it is only 6 months more and then it won't matter. They did say that hd customers would be the first ones to get upgrades to mpeg 4 version receivers.


That's a remarkable insight into corporate planning, there. How did you ever get the idea that Dish is going to replace all the 921/942 receivers in six months?

What I have heard is that Dish plans to roll out MPEG-4 "late this year". I suspect that all the MPEG-4 content will go somewere like the 121 slot, and anyone who wants to pony up for an MPEG-4 receiver will also get a superdish. The traditional HD content will continue in its current location, without upgrades, for a year or two. You can keep right on using your 921/942 for years, if you want.

Congress just extended SD locals at least until 2008, so Dish has years to swap you into a new DVR receiver.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

I mean by 6 months , that mpeg 4 will begin broadcasting and the swap out of all hd receivers would begin. This would of course give Dish the reason not to fix the problems on the 921 since they would begin swapping out the hd receivers first. 

That much has been talked about for months now since Charlie talked about it at the CES show and on his own Charlie Chats. They will swap out all the hd receivers for meg4 versions before they will even think of doing the sd receivers. It could take up to 3 - 4 years for ALL receivers ( sd & hd ) to be swapped out. All new hd programming will be in mpeg4 , including the extra 11 Voom channels that have yet to be added. They have said either Jan or 2006 or in the first quarter of the same year. So we are looking at 2009 before they would be done with the whole swap out. Which is when the new analog deadline has been proposed for :Jan 1, 2009. 

My entire point in regards to the 921 is that Dish is willing to wait and not fix the 921 problems because the mpeg4 conversion will begin in 6months or more . Then the excuse will be : we are swapping out all the hd receivers first and the 921 owners are the first on the list to swap. So hang in there....

Eldon has done horrible things in writing of the 921 software and deserves to be fired and the whole company sold off. I had a 921 for close to a year and though I could make it work , it took a lot of baby sitting. It never recorded 2 hd programs at the same time without a ZSR. The ota reception came and went and was not reliable. 

Now I have had the 942 since May and it is like a dream come true. I now own 2 of them. They work so well and I can record 2 hd shows at the same time. I can record 3 things at the same time: 2 sat and one ota recording. 

IF Dish wanted to quell the bad public relations disaster that the 921 has become , 2nd only to the origional dishplayer 7100/7200 fiasco, they would offer the 921 owners a 942 . But since , as I have already stated , that the mpeg4 conversion will begin in 6 months or so, Dish has decided to let the problems go on , and the 921 owners will continue to suffer through. 

So if you bought a 921/942 and you are willing to do without any new mpeg4 hd programming , or if you bought it to use with sd and the existing hd programming, then you are right: you will have years to enjoy your existing 921 /942 receivers. If you want the newest hd programming out there you will need to upgrade to a mepg 4 receiver . The only new mpeg 4 receiver we have seen is the 411 which will replace the existing 811 and 311 receivers. It will do both sd and hd . We have yet to see the mpeg4 dvr version. We have all speculated that it will be nothing more than a 942 with a mpeg4 chip. And that Dish will send us a new mpeg4 version and we will send back our mpeg 2 version back . The amount of course for the swap out has never been discussed . 

Hope that explains the corporate planning better for you.


----------



## DonLandis

Mike and others-

Let's assume that E* will offer 921 owners an MP4 DVR, like the 942 but with MP4 capability for, say $200. $50 and a 2 year commitment for AEP. Your choice. But that offer comes 18 months from now. Would you keep the 921 and wait? Assume there is no deal on the 942 in the mean time. Then there is a deal like this for the 942 to the MP4 version at the same time. Basically, you will be buying the 942 only to get a less buggy DVR for a short period of time if you make the move now.

MY choice decision has not changed. I will stay with the 921 until the MP4 forces me to no longer use it. Then I will evaluate which provider has the best deal at that time.


----------



## JM Anthony

DonLandis said:


> . . . MY choice decision has not changed. I will stay with the 921 until the MP4 forces me to no longer use it. Then I will evaluate which provider has the best deal at that time.


I've reached the same conclusion as Don. I've been with E* for a long time and for the most part, they've done right by me. While my experience with our 921 hasn't been the most pleasant, it also hasn't been the worst. I plan to sit tight until there's a "compelling" reason for another DBS related h/w investment.


----------



## UT_Texan

ditto, I have had my 921 for 7 months and can't explain spending more for virtually the same thing. even though I am fairly certain we won't see mpg4 4 units till maybe sometime late next yr I will wait till I have some sort of idea what the plan will be for existing customers.
Lets see, shelled out $500 in Dec., then another $2-$700 now, and then who knows what anywhere from free (YEAH RIGHT) to $50-$500. Why would I pay to sub. to local HD channels also which seems to be the next stuff they want in HD. It isn't like analog, you either get it or don't OTA and I think most do get it. On top of that 7-1 tv's must have digital tuner. I don't know what the exceptions are to that though.

So I will wait.


----------



## Jason Kragt

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I mean by 6 months , that mpeg 4 will begin broadcasting and the swap out of all hd receivers would begin. This would of course give Dish the reason not to fix the problems on the 921 since they would begin swapping out the hd receivers first.


I wouldn't be too confident of any "swap out". If by "swap out", you mean that Dish will put MPEG4 programming on other satellites and allow us to purchase MPEG4 receivers at a slight discount if we make a substantial programming commitment, then yes, it could begin early next year. But if by "swap out", you mean that Dish will replace our equipment without us making a significant investment, then dream on!

Is there any precedent for something like this? They are swapping out blue cards for yellow ones at no cost to the subscriber, but those are just cards, not whole receivers. I believe that a few of their earliest receivers cannot accept a yellow card, so they have been swapping them for a new 301. I believe that a few DishPlayer 7100/7200s cannot accept the yellow card, so they are swapping them for new 501s. Other than those rare exceptions, Dish has always tried to get the consumer to make a majority of the investment. Even those exceptions are all pretty modest upgrades.

The only compelling cases that I can think of for MPEG4 right now are HD locals and the remaining VOOM channels. If those HD locals can go on another satellite, then they can keep the current HD offering in MPEG2 indefinitely. If this is the case, then there is no need for a "swap out" at all. If you live in an area where they will rebroadcast HD locals, then you can get them by purchasing a new MPEG4 receiver. Want the remaining VOOM channels? Purchase a new MPEG4 receiver. In both cases, they can force most of the cost on us, the consumer.

The only thing that could possibly help us is if DirecTV made some big HD push. However, DirecTV is doing pretty much the same thing that Dish is. They seem to be building an entirely separate HD service using their 99, 101 and 103 Ka locations. Their legacy Ku service can remain in place while the conversion is going on. If you don't want any new channels or HD features, then just sit back. All of the current MPEG2 offerings (even the HD ones) will remain where they are for some time to come.


----------



## Larry Caldwell

UT_Texan said:


> I am fairly certain we won't see mpg4 4 units till maybe sometime late next yr


You can bet your booties that Charlie would love to have MPEG-4 available for the Christmas buying season. A new product for the high rollers is just the thing to make the accountants happy. If Christmas doesn't happen, let's all look forward to the Turin Winter Olympics in HDTV.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

Jason Kragt said:


> I wouldn't be too confident of any "swap out". If by "swap out", you mean that Dish will put MPEG4 programming on other satellites and allow us to purchase MPEG4 receivers at a slight discount if we make a substantial programming commitment, then yes, it could begin early next year. But if by "swap out", you mean that Dish will replace our equipment without us making a significant investment, then dream on!
> 
> The only compelling cases that I can think of for MPEG4 right now are HD locals and the remaining VOOM channels. If those HD locals can go on another satellite, then they can keep the current HD offering in MPEG2 indefinitely. If this is the case, then there is no need for a "swap out" at all. If you live in an area where they will rebroadcast HD locals, then you can get them by purchasing a new MPEG4 receiver. Want the remaining VOOM channels? Purchase a new MPEG4 receiver. In both cases, they can force most of the cost on us, the consumer.
> 
> Dish has said publicly at the CES show recently in Las Vegas that the swap out will be at little or no cost to the customers. Directv has said the same thing at the same show. Whether they do this remains to be seen. But if they don't then I see a big turnover in Dish customers who will churn to Directv to get the latest mpeg4 receivers for little or nothing as new customers and I see the same for Directv customers who would churn to Dish to do the same. I also see a lot of customers who will leave satellite entirely and go to ota and cable, if both companies don't offer free or little or no cost swap outs.
> 
> The future for both satellite companies is mpeg4 for both sd and hd progamming. This will happen in the next 3- 4 years. They will have to work at this swap out without offending their current customers or they will lose a lot of them. Programming commitments with free mpgeg4 dvrs would be the way to go. Another way would be to make everyone lease these same receivers and then they would have all lease customers - again with commitments for programming.
> 
> I guess we will see soon enough . Fall is only 3 months away. That is when the big push by Directv to have the top 12 markets in hd is to begin. Charlie has said for months that his push for mpeg4 would begin in the fall or by early next year.
> 
> Either way next year will be very interesting.....


----------



## Indydave

Mike D-CO5 and others,

The Voom channels are up and running, they installed mine a week ago. The picture and sound are very good on all 10 channels. The Voom channels are coming off the 61.5 sat.


----------



## bluegreg

Indydave said:


> Mike D-CO5 and others,
> 
> The Voom channels are up and running, they installed mine a week ago. The picture and sound are very good on all 10 channels. The Voom channels are coming off the 61.5 sat.


well there are a 11 more channels of voom waiting to stream in mpeg4.


----------



## Rodney

How does a discussion of the VOOM channels relate to the topic "I want an update on the SW release!"? And when you consider the fact that L2.15 was scheduled for release last week I am finding it a stretch that MPEG4 was the culprit that caused its cancellation.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

Rodney said:


> How does a discussion of the VOOM channels relate to the topic "I want an update on the SW release!"? And when you consider the fact that L2.15 was scheduled for release last week I am finding it a stretch that MPEG4 was the culprit that caused its cancellation.


I was merely saying that the reason why Dish is not pushing out the software updates for the 921 like they are with the 942 , because they consider it a dead discontinued model. In 6 months or more mpeg4 will be starting and they will start swapping out the 921s /942s/6000s /811s so they can get the latest mpeg 4 receivers. Charlie has said time and time again, that the hd customers will be swapped out first ,since all NEW hd channels will be the first ones to go mpeg4 to save bandwith and add more hd next year. Hence there is no reason why Dish should continue to do software updates to fix a dead model like the 921.

This is why I think Dish is not pushing out the updates as promised last summer and last fall. We were promised all kinds of updates each month on one of the tech chats last July or August that would fix most of the software problems like the ZSRs , etc. My bet is the 921 owners will be the first ones to be upgraded so Dish can avoid anymore complaints that comes from the 921 owners.

The 921 has been a fiasco , second only to the origional dishplayer /webtv receivers in 99 , that caused a class action lawsuit to be filed and won by the plaintiffs. I got about $20.00 worth of pay per view coupons in my settlement last fall, only 5 years after I purchased my first dishplayer. Whopee!! It sure didn't make up for all the problems I suffered through with the dishplayer 7100/7200 models . Maybe someone will file a class action lawsuit for the 921 owners too. Anyone for more pay per view coupons?:sure:


----------



## jcord51

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I was merely saying that the reason why Dish is not pushing
> The 921 has been a fiasco , second only to the origional dishplayer /webtv receivers in 99 , that caused a class action lawsuit to be filed and won by the plaintiffs. I got about $20.00 worth of pay per view coupons in my settlement last fall, only 5 years after I purchased my first dishplayer. Whopee!! It sure didn't make up for all the problems I suffered through with the dishplayer 7100/7200 models . Maybe someone will file a class action lawsuit for the 921 owners too. Anyone for more pay per view coupons?:sure:


 :lol: I still have all my $40 worth of coupons, which by the way you can not use for HD PPV movies and are not transferable to someone else. :nono2:


----------



## Neil Derryberry

Mike D-CO5 said:


> The 921 has been a fiasco , second only to the origional dishplayer /webtv receivers in 99 , that caused a class action lawsuit to be filed and won by the plaintiffs. I got about $20.00 worth of pay per view coupons in my settlement last fall, only 5 years after I purchased my first dishplayer. Whopee!! It sure didn't make up for all the problems I suffered through with the dishplayer 7100/7200 models . Maybe someone will file a class action lawsuit for the 921 owners too. Anyone for more pay per view coupons?:sure:


The only winners of class-action lawsuits are lawyers.. as proved by your coupons. Sorry to hear that.


----------



## Jason Kragt

I never got any coupons, and I suffered through the DishPlayer 7100 fisaco too!


----------



## bluegreg

at least now with bush's legal reform coupons are not the result of federal suits and it will be hard cash or more substantial result to any class action. also limits lawyers payout.
so it would be a better case today.
I'm starting a new thread
" I want a refund keep the sofware release!


----------



## Rodney

A new week and still waiting for L2.15. Any inside information on what happened to the release last week and what are the prospects L2.15 will be released this week?


----------



## Allen Noland

Maybe today will be the day for some.


----------



## Jerry G

Allen Noland said:


> Maybe today will be the day for some.


In the past, and as opposed to say the 811 software, the 921 software would go to everyone at the same time, assuming it's not a beta release that you're referring to. So has the 921 software distribution method changed?


----------



## bbomar

Allen Noland said:


> Maybe today will be the day for some.


Maybe Allen means the day for some information?


----------



## AVJohnnie

bbomar said:


> Maybe Allen means the day for some information?


Yep - Just like Brylcreem, "A Little Dab'll Do Ya!" :lol:


----------



## boylehome

It is downloading. It is HERE!


----------



## Jerry G

bbomar said:


> Maybe Allen means the day for some information?


Ya. I see what you mean. That's why quoting is good. It can give context to the response. I thought "some" meant some people as opposed to some information.


----------



## boylehome

Allen Noland said:


> Maybe today will be the day for some.


Some = Download !!!


----------



## dfergie

My 921 appears to be downloading....


----------



## jcord51

Not yet here...


----------



## invaliduser88

Download thread over here http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=43428


----------



## SummitAdvantageRetailer

Yay!


----------



## Mike Russell

I think some meant just what it says because I didn't get it.


----------



## bbomar

Mike Russell said:


> I think some meant just what it says because I didn't get it.


Maybe you're right. They are showing both L2.13 and L2.15 as the
current valid software here:

http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/receiver/921.shtml

They also say this is the "first phase" of the software download here 
(under the Tech Update link):

http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/TechDepo.shtml


----------



## invaliduser88

"first phase"???


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Spooling to 10,000 units only today.

Closing thread.


----------

