# Official DTV Transition Discussion



## Stuart Sweet

*Guidelines for Posting in this Thread*

Let's try to have a constructive discussion about this topic.

I know there are those who think the transition won't happen. Feel free to discuss that but do not get political please. I know, this is a government issue but try to keep the focus technical and social, not political.

Feel free to discuss "great found deals" or sightings of converter boxes, success or failure stories, or other DTV-related viewpoints.

Just like other non-DBS topics such as Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD, we are going to keep only one thread on this topic. Other threads will be merged into this one or deleted.

Unfortunately we will have to delete posts that are too political or attack other users.

The DTV FAQ can be found here.

Have at it!


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## tcusta00

Good idea! There were more than a few of these threads popping up in the past few weeks.


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## Nick

Good move, Stu. :up:


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## RAD

I think broadcasters need to be more open about what their final channel assignment will be after analog shutdown. There's a number of stations now on UHF that will go to a VHF channel which could effect a decision on what antenna to purchase. Maybe sites like Antennaweb.org should note that when people are researching what to get. 

Something eles that needs to be address is the availability of low cost battery operated set with ATSC tuners. A number of people have sets like this in their emergency kits to allow them to keep track of news and weather, those sets will be useless after 2/2009. I found one battery/ATSC set at Radio Shack but it was almost $200.


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## tcusta00

RAD said:


> Something eles that needs to be address is the availability of low cost battery operated set with ATSC tuners. A number of people have sets like this in their emergency kits to allow them to keep track of news and weather, those sets will be useless after 2/2009. I found one battery/ATSC set at Radio Shack but it was almost $200.


What about radios?


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## RAD

tcusta00 said:


> What about radios?


That would work but some people prefer to be able to see what's happening vs. trying to figure out what a radar image would look like.


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## Upstream

Here is the FINAL list of post-Feb-2009 Channel Assignments --> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf

The column labeled NTSC Chan is the old Analog channel number. The column labeled DTV Chan is the new Digital channel number for post-Feb-2009.

Note that you may need to check nearby cities (and nearby states) to see all the channels you receive.


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## RAD

Upstream, I know that but does the average consumer even know that channel assignments will change let alone that they need to go to an FCC page to find the answers?


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## tcusta00

RAD said:


> That would work but some people prefer to be able to see what's happening vs. trying to figure out what a radar image would look like.


Ah, didn't think of that. Fortunately I've always lived in areas where extreme weather that would require some alternative communication with the outside world is rare.

I'm sure the prices of battery-operated tuners and portable TVs with digital tuners built-in will drop... eventually.


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## Stuart Sweet

RAD said:


> Upstream, I know that but does the average consumer even know that channel assignments will change let alone that they need to go to an FCC page to find the answers?


...and that is where you, the wise and wonderful DBSTalkers come in. Talk to people you meet about the subject and spread the word.


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## tcusta00

Didn't I read somewhere though that even though the digital channel number is changing, the tuner will/can still use the old analog channel when tuning on the tv set?


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## Stuart Sweet

I think you're referring to PSIP, which is a way that your TV can still tune to 4-1 when you want channel 4, even though it may actually occupy the same place that channel 36 (analog) used to. That's part of every new TV with an ATSC tuner.


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## tcusta00

Forgive my ignorance... doesn't that mean that the channel assignment changes that Upstream posted a link to above is moot? For instance, my local ABC is currently analog channel 2 and is/will be DTV channel 38. An ATSC tuner will still allow me to tune to channel 2, correct? Which means most people won't notice any change at all if they have a built-in ATSC tuner, and those buying converter boxes won't notice a difference once they're hooked up.


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## RAD

tcusta00 said:


> Forgive my ignorance... doesn't that mean that the channel assignment changes that Upstream posted a link to above is moot? For instance, my local ABC is currently analog channel 2 and is/will be DTV channel 38. An ATSC tuner will still allow me to tune to channel 2, correct? Which means most people won't notice any change at all if they have a built-in ATSC tuner, and those buying converter boxes won't notice a difference once they're hooked up.


That is correct, if your local ABC decides to keep putting out channel 2 via PSIP.


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## Kansas Zephyr

If, or when, the RF channel changes, it will "go missing" until you rescan for channels.

Or, the database is updated in your set-top, if it can't scan for OTA.

So, some people may, at first, think their local digital station is not broadcasting.


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## Upstream

I agree that the stations need to do a better job letting people know what there permanent station assignments will be. Aside from the issues raised by others, there are people who are buying UHF-only antennas, assuming that no stations will move back to VHF.


My link above was intended to just be informational for those on this forum, not a replacement for the communications that the stations need to do.


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## Doug Brott

Upstream said:



> there are people who are buying UHF-only antennas, assuming that no stations will move back to VHF.


That's the crux of the problem .. However, double checking the SF links, many are going to stay UHF which will minimize that particular problem. I did find a nice chart that someone put together for th SF bay area if folks are interested .. much more user-friendly than the FCC link, but only for one DMA ..

http://www.choisser.com/channels.html


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## Tower Guy

RAD said:


> Maybe sites like Antennaweb.org should note that when people are researching what to get.


That feature was added to antennaweb in the last few days. But www.tvfool.com beat them to it!


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## Cholly

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think you're referring to PSIP, which is a way that your TV can still tune to 4-1 when you want channel 4, even though it may actually occupy the same place that channel 36 (analog) used to. That's part of every new TV with an ATSC tuner.


Isn't that a bit misleading? PSIP in and of itself doesn't contain any program material. As I understand it, it CAN point/guide you to a new (active) channel. But then, I rather doubt that broadcasters will be allowed to transmit PSIP on a channel that they are no longer licensed to use.


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## Drew2k

PSIP Info

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSIP

Official Site: http://www.psip.org/


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## Stuart Sweet

Unless I understand wrong, one part of PSIP is the mechanism where your tuner scans for channels and it maps them at that time. I don't know of any TV or tuner that's actively scanning, and no, I don't see it being used as a redirect, because that would require broadcasting on the old channel.

I can only hope that throughout Jan. 2009, OTA channels run a banner as frequently as necessary saying, "You will have to rescan for channels on 2/17 and you'll need a converter box" or something like that.


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## scooper

Yep - on Febuary 17/18, 2009 - everybody in the country will probably be doing channel scans ) .


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## Geronimo

scooper said:


> Yep - on Febuary 17/18, 2009 - everybody in the country will probably be doing channel scans ) .


Everybody SHOULD. Who knows what they will really do.


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## Doug Brott

scooper said:


> Yep - on Febuary 17/18, 2009 - everybody in the country will probably be doing channel scans ) .


I won't be .


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## Upstream

The way PSIP works is that your television scans for signals. It finds a signal between 698-704 MHz (commonly known as channel 52). Your television reads the PSIP information from the signal, and your TV learns a lot of things, including there are 4 broadcast streams on the signal, and they are called 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, 5.4. Your TV stores this information.

(In some cases, your TV doesn't scan for the signals, so you need to enter this information, or your TV downloads it from another source.)


Later on, when you tell your TV that you want to watch the broadcast stream called 5.1, your TV has already learned that 5.1 is broadcast on the signal between 698-704 MHz (commonly known as channel 52).

Now, after Feb 2009, the television station may move its signal from 698-704 MHz (commonly known as channel 52) to 530-536 MHz (commonly known as channel 24).

When you tell your TV that you want to watch 5.1, it will go to 698-704 MHz(commonly known as channel 52) and it won't find 5.1 there, since it has moved to 530-536 MHz (commonly known as channel 24). 

So you need to do a rescan, and your TV will then find the signal at 530-536 MHz (commonly known as channel 24) with the PSIP information saying this is where 5.1 is located.


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## Kansas Zephyr

Good example:

But, if RF channel 52 has 5.1, 5.2, etc. as it's virtual channel(s), it will most likely either stay on RF channel 52, or move to RF channel 5 after the analog cut-off. Since TV stations have the option of returning to their old analog assignment after the cut-off (the virtual channel number).

So, then RF channel 5, may also be virtual 5.1, 5.2, etc.


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## scooper

Except - that channel 52 is "out of core" post transition - all Digital stations (full power) must be between channels 2 and 51 inclusive.


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## Kansas Zephyr

True dat...so there would be no digital 52, to start with.


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## scooper

A significant number of my local digital stations are currently out of core and will be moving to their final assignments on Feb 17,2009 . I can think of 2 out of 7 that are already on their final assignments - everybody else is part of the shuffle dance....


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## otaota

Just thought I'd post the following link here since it seems relevant to this thread.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50


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## Kentstater

I recieved my two coupons (cards) yesterday.
I got home late last night from work so I did not have time to look at the mail. I had to watch LOST.

I'll let you guys lnow if there is anything other than two coupons that look like debit cards with an expiration date of May 23, 2008.


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## Geronimo

I received mine therein addition to the cards there is an info sheet simialr to what is on the website.


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## Stuart Sweet

Engadgethd.com has a view of what the coupons look like if you are interested:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/02/28/dtv-converter-coupons-start-to-arrive-get-pictured/


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## samhevener

:lol: I know I said I wouldn't be back on the thread for six months but I couldn't help letting everyone know that Walmart now has a large digital LCD countdown clock counting down the days, hours, minutes and seconds until the dream time for the shutdown of high powered analog TV stations. It's in the electronics department.


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## scooper

samhevener said:


> :lol: I know I said I wouldn't be back on the thread for six months but I couldn't help letting everyone know that Walmart now has a large digital LCD countdown clock counting down the days, hours, minutes and seconds until the dream time for the shutdown of high powered analog TV stations. It's in the electronics department.


Yes - at my closest WalMart - it's with the Magnavox converter boxes.


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## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> :lol: I know I said I wouldn't be back on the thread for six months but I couldn't help letting everyone know that Walmart now has a large digital LCD countdown clock counting down the days, hours, minutes and seconds until the dream time for the shutdown of high powered analog TV stations. It's in the electronics department.


Since you've chosen to come back. I'm still willing to take that bet.

How much?


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## samhevener

I would bet you a beer. Betting any amount of cash would be just taking your money. I did read a recent blog that the coverage area of the DTV signals is much less than that of the analog signal even after going to a higher power transmitter. Outdoor antennas may be required for some of the viewers who now use rabbit ears. Another expense, another pain for those widows on Social Security.


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## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> I would bet you a beer. Betting any amount of cash would be just taking your money. I did read a recent blog that the coverage area of the DTV signals is much less than that of the analog signal even after going to a higher power transmitter. Outdoor antennas may be required for some of the viewers who now use rabbit ears. Another expense, another pain for those widows on Social Security.


I'll be willing to lose a few real dollars. Come on, put your money, where your mouth is. Say $100?

Probably because the digital signal is currently on UHF. If they return to VHF after the cut-off, that issue may be solved.

What did people do when UHF was introduced? They either had to buy a tuner, or get a new TV. That was before SS, but I'm sure there were widows then, too. But, I guess our society now considers TV a necessity, instead of a luxury.


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## Stuart Sweet

samhevener said:


> I would bet you a beer. Betting any amount of cash would be just taking your money. I did read a recent blog that the coverage area of the DTV signals is much less than that of the analog signal even after going to a higher power transmitter. Outdoor antennas may be required for some of the viewers who now use rabbit ears. Another expense, another pain for those widows on Social Security.


I can say that I have the opposite experience. I get digital channels that I never got as analog channels.


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## jimmyv2000

scooper said:


> Yes - at my closest WalMart - it's with the Magnavox converter boxes.


Thats the box that my local WalMart has. 
have you tried it out yet?


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## tcusta00

samhevener said:


> I did read a recent blog that the coverage area of the DTV signals is much less than that of the analog signal even after going to a higher power transmitter.


Oh right, blogs, the wikipedias of the news media world - full of indisputable facts, right?


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## cadet502

I've been to the coupon site and ordered my coupons. I was checking out the FAQ that Stuart put up and went to the www.dtv.gov site. Holy Blinking Moving Crap Batman. Is that one of the worst web sites I've ever seen or what? These are the people who are going to make sure the transition runs smoothly? Not if everyone goes into apoplexy from trying to navigate that website. Crimeny!


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## tcusta00

I agree, that's a pretty poorly designed site. The colors are hard to look at and the animation takes 15 seconds to run its course. It looks like the developer wanted to show off his Flash programming "skills". :lol:


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## Geronimo

tcusta00 said:


> Oh right, blogs, the wikipedias of the news media world - full of indisputable facts, right?


He seems to think that THIS is a blog. My guess is that he thinks all web sites are blogs.


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## tcusta00

Geronimo said:


> He seems to think that THIS is a blog. My guess is that he thinks all web sites are blogs.


Oh yeah, I do remember reading that in one of the other blogs he started on this wiki-ma-jigger.


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## Geronimo

Doug Brott said:


> I won't be .


actually if no stations in your area are returning to their old analog position ora third psoition (or will have done so already) you don't have to.


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## Geronimo

Kansas Zephyr said:


> I'll be willing to lose a few real dollars. Come on, put your money, where your mouth is. Say $100?
> 
> Probably because the digital signal is currently on UHF. If they return to VHF after the cut-off, that issue may be solved.
> 
> What did people do when UHF was introduced? They either had to buy a tuner, or get a new TV. That was before SS, but I'm sure there were widows then, too. But, I guess our society now considers TV a necessity, instead of a luxury.


well it wan't before sdsocial security but I agree with your point.


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## samhevener

I was around when UHF was introduced. You are missing the point I have been trying to make the past two months. UHF was introduced but the EXISTING VHF stations we were watching DID NOT go off the air. One did not have to install a converter to continue watching TV. To this date (50+ years later) you can still receive those VHF stations on your TV and NO need to have a UHF converter or UHF TV. This is different, the DTV tuners have only been mandatory in TVs sold from 2007 on. The EXISTING stations are going off the air too soon. It's a MAJOR change the American public will not accept. If I bet any amount of money on the delayed shutdown it would be like stealing your money. Lets keep it at a beer.


Kansas Zephyr said:


> I'll be willing to lose a few real dollars. Come on, put your money, where your mouth is. Say $100?
> 
> Probably because the digital signal is currently on UHF. If they return to VHF after the cut-off, that issue may be solved.
> 
> What did people do when UHF was introduced? They either had to buy a tuner, or get a new TV. That was before SS, but I'm sure there were widows then, too. But, I guess our society now considers TV a necessity, instead of a luxury.


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## jacksonm30354

RAD said:


> I think broadcasters need to be more open about what their final channel assignment will be after analog shutdown. There's a number of stations now on UHF that will go to a VHF channel which could effect a decision on what antenna to purchase. Maybe sites like Antennaweb.org should note that when people are researching what to get.
> 
> Something eles that needs to be address is the availability of low cost battery operated set with ATSC tuners. A number of people have sets like this in their emergency kits to allow them to keep track of news and weather, those sets will be useless after 2/2009. I found one battery/ATSC set at Radio Shack but it was almost $200.


I bet the majority of people wouldn't know where they were located on that radar map.


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## jacksonm30354

samhevener said:


> I was around when UHF was introduced. You are missing the point I have been trying to make the past two months. UHF was introduced but the EXISTING VHF stations we were watching DID NOT go off the air. One did not have to install a converter to continue watching TV. To this date (50+ years later) you can still receive those VHF stations on your TV and NO need to have a UHF converter or UHF TV. This is different, the DTV tuners have only been mandatory in TVs sold from 2007 on. The EXISTING stations are going off the air too soon. It's a MAJOR change the American public will not accept. If I bet any amount of money on the delayed shutdown it would be like stealing your money. Lets keep it at a beer.


Most of America won't even know it happened. Most people have cable or satellite so nothing will change for them.

The sky is not falling.


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## jacksonm30354

There a a few quirks for OTA-only folks....the rescans mentions for stations changing assignments, but also some stations have their digital and analog signals on different towers. So might need so re-aiming.

I know in Columbus, GA only one station will be going back to it's analog channel - WTVM - TV-9/DT-47. But the CW station (WLGA - TV66) will move from DT 31 to DT 47 and from a location ~15 miles NW of the city to ~15 miles SE of the city.


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## jacksonm30354

One other thing. I think some stations may have missed an improved marketing opportunity with the transition. UHF stations have always had a negative stigma. When a market has some of the big 4 on VHF and some on UHF, alot of people will look down apon the product produced by the UHF station. NBC8 or CBS 4 flows off the tongue a bit better than NBC38 or CBS46.

Since the PSIP would allow a station to basically identify itself as any channel number they want, these UHF stations should have pushed to be allowed to rebrand themselves with an unused 2-13 ch number in the market.


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## Upstream

Sam is right that this is very different than introduction of UHF. And even if most home (>50%) have cable/sat, this change will still affect a significant number of homes which rely on OTA broadcasts, either completely or partially.

But Sam is wrong when he says the changeover will be delayed. Delaying won't fix any of the conversion problems. Only cancelling the conversion would solve the problems, and that won't happen.


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## cadet502

RAD said:


> ....
> Something eles that needs to be address is the availability of low cost battery operated set with ATSC tuners. A number of people have sets like this in their emergency kits to allow them to keep track of news and weather, those sets will be useless after 2/2009. I found one battery/ATSC set at Radio Shack but it was almost $200.


Good point. Even a converter is not going to be much help in that case, I'm sure all the converters need power. Hopefully within 10 months someone will come out with a reasonably priced portable. (have to remember to put that on the Christmas list)

I'm also considering a usb tuner for the laptop, although the batteries in a laptop won't last as long as one might need, the tuners can be had for under $50. And just to be safe, I think I'll run the antenna cable to the corner of the basement we use for storms.


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## scooper

You can find a portable digital TV at Radio Shack for about $200 - don't expect much performance out of it unless you use an external antenna. It has integrated NiMH batteries that should be good for about 100-120 minutes.

Edit - my plans - I have a 12V drycell Jumper for a car, and some 12v-120VAC inverters. Use this to power my CECB and a TV and the antenna preamp. Works fine.


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## Cholly

samhevener said:


> I was around when UHF was introduced. You are missing the point I have been trying to make the past two months. UHF was introduced but the EXISTING VHF stations we were watching DID NOT go off the air. One did not have to install a converter to continue watching TV. To this date (50+ years later) you can still receive those VHF stations on your TV and NO need to have a UHF converter or UHF TV. This is different, the DTV tuners have only been mandatory in TVs sold from 2007 on. The EXISTING stations are going off the air too soon. It's a MAJOR change the American public will not accept. If I bet any amount of money on the delayed shutdown it would be like stealing your money. Lets keep it at a beer.


Sam -- I'm older than you, and I have vivid memories of the FM radio spectrum changeover, when my father had to buy a converter to continue to receive FM broadcasts. There were NO coupons given out to assist people who had invested in radios that had FM tuners. If you wanted to receive FM broadcasts, you bought a converter or replaced your radio. Period. This is a better comparison to the digital transition than the introduction of UHF TV. As with the digital transition, it affected a relatively small part of the general population. Granted, commercial FM broadcasting was relatively new and not in widespread use. However, as is the case with DTV vs. analog TV, it was a significant improvement over the existing (AM) broadcasting. Fast forward to today, and FM is by far the most widely listened to radio broadcast medium.

The American public WILL accept the changeover. Get over it. If you are concerned about a widow who depends upon OTA television and will require an outdoor antenna in order to receive it, help her. If she's a member of the AARP and reads her monthly newsletter, she'll be aware of the transition. If she watches TV, she'll be aware as well, because she will be bombarded with PSA's (Public Service Announcements) about the transition. Rather than being a naysayer, become a messenger. Get the word out to your neighbors, fellow mall walkers and church members. They will thank you.

As an aside, I receive digital TV both OTA and via cable. My outdoor antenna is UHF only, so I don't receive one of the regional PBS stations OTA. However, I receive all seven TV networks with that antenna. Two TV receivers in my home have ATSC tuners. The others do not. However, I do have an ATSC tuner I bought on clearance at Radio Shack a few years ago, and it does a great job, having standard RCA outputs, S-video, component and HDMI outputs as well as digital and analog audio outputs.

Te coupon program, in my opinion, is generous in offering two coupons per household. More than two would be overkill. It's not designed to convert every TV in a household that has, say, 5 or 6 TV's (one in the living room, one in the kitchen, one in mom and dad's bedroom and one in each kid's room). Rather, it provides the ability to continue to receive television broadcasts on a few sets in the home. If you have more than two TV's, in all likelihood you can afford to buy additional converter boxes at the $50 price.


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## samhevener

jacksonm30354 said:


> Most of America won't even know it happened. Most people have cable or satellite so nothing will change for them.
> 
> The sky is not falling.


 You think so? Wait until they have to disconnect because that will be the first thing they can do without when they have their jobs cut back. The coming recession will cause many to disconnect from cable and satellite. A new expense just at the time they don't need it. They will be without coupons because they were told they don't need them.


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## samhevener

Good point Charlie. The transition to the new 88-108 mhz FM band from the old 42-47 mhz FM band did make the older FM sets unusable without an adapter. But FM broadcast just started in 1940-1941. Very few FM stations were on the air then ( you could count them on your fingers) and very few FM radios were sold in 1940-1941. The War Production Board in Feb 1942 forbid the manufacture of any entertainment electronic equipment for civilians until after the war. Those few FM sets sold in 1940-1941 did need an adapter to work after the 42 Mhz band was shut down about 1946-47. This is a HUGE change compared to then.


Cholly said:


> Sam -- I'm older than you, and I have vivid memories of the FM radio spectrum changeover, when my father had to buy a converter to continue to receive FM broadcasts. There were NO coupons given out to assist people who had invested in radios that had FM tuners. If you wanted to receive FM broadcasts, you bought a converter or replaced your radio. Period. This is a better comparison to the digital transition than the introduction of UHF TV. As with the digital transition, it affected a relatively small part of the general population. Granted, commercial FM broadcasting was relatively new and not in widespread use. However, as is the case with DTV vs. analog TV, it was a significant improvement over the existing (AM) broadcasting. Fast forward to today, and FM is by far the most widely listened to radio broadcast medium.
> 
> The American public WILL accept the changeover. Get over it. If you are concerned about a widow who depends upon OTA television and will require an outdoor antenna in order to receive it, help her. If she's a member of the AARP and reads her monthly newsletter, she'll be aware of the transition. If she watches TV, she'll be aware as well, because she will be bombarded with PSA's (Public Service Announcements) about the transition. Rather than being a naysayer, become a messenger. Get the word out to your neighbors, fellow mall walkers and church members. They will thank you.
> 
> As an aside, I receive digital TV both OTA and via cable. My outdoor antenna is UHF only, so I don't receive one of the regional PBS stations OTA. However, I receive all seven TV networks with that antenna. Two TV receivers in my home have ATSC tuners. The others do not. However, I do have an ATSC tuner I bought on clearance at Radio Shack a few years ago, and it does a great job, having standard RCA outputs, S-video, component and HDMI outputs as well as digital and analog audio outputs.
> 
> Te coupon program, in my opinion, is generous in offering two coupons per household. More than two would be overkill. It's not designed to convert every TV in a household that has, say, 5 or 6 TV's (one in the living room, one in the kitchen, one in mom and dad's bedroom and one in each kid's room). Rather, it provides the ability to continue to receive television broadcasts on a few sets in the home. If you have more than two TV's, in all likelihood you can afford to buy additional converter boxes at the $50 price.


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## n3ntj

Upstream said:


> The way PSIP works is that your television scans for signals. It finds a signal between 698-704 MHz (commonly known as channel 52). Your television reads the PSIP information from the signal, and your TV learns a lot of things, including there are 4 broadcast streams on the signal, and they are called 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, 5.4. Your TV stores this information.
> 
> (In some cases, your TV doesn't scan for the signals, so you need to enter this information, or your TV downloads it from another source.)
> 
> Later on, when you tell your TV that you want to watch the broadcast stream called 5.1, your TV has already learned that 5.1 is broadcast on the signal between 698-704 MHz (commonly known as channel 52).
> 
> Now, after Feb 2009, the television station may move its signal from 698-704 MHz (commonly known as channel 52) to 530-536 MHz (commonly known as channel 24).
> 
> When you tell your TV that you want to watch 5.1, it will go to 698-704 MHz(commonly known as channel 52) and it won't find 5.1 there, since it has moved to 530-536 MHz (commonly known as channel 24).
> 
> So you need to do a rescan, and your TV will then find the signal at 530-536 MHz (commonly known as channel 24) with the PSIP information saying this is where 5.1 is located.


Is this how our D* IRDs do this too, or is the PSIP info already provided by D* or Tribune via the data stream? I am thinking the 2nd option since we can't scan for channels on the IRD's ATSC tuner.

I would also guess this is setup at the point when we go into the local channel setup and enter a zip code(s) and it searches for DT channels within that zip code?


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## Geronimo

This is just going to continue until feb 2009 or perhaps longer. Mr. Hevener seems to have made up his mind that there will be problems and others are equally convniced that the transition will be reasonaby painless.


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## JmC

I stumbled upon this comparison of CECBs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units


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## tcusta00

samhevener said:


> On Feb 17, 2009 the plan will be changed greatly from the original. I'm going to sign out of these blogs now but I will be back in six months or so.


It's become an endless circular argument since there's no real proof one way or the other that the date will be pushed back, canceled or otherwise. I think we need to table the argument of whether the date will be changed - it's been discussed ad nauseum and it's all speculation on both sides. We've all spoken our peace and our positions are on the record for all to see. If the date gets pushed back we'll all be eating our feet and if not Sam will have his day in the sun. I don't think there's anything constructive left to say about the date changing or not anymore.


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## Tom Robertson

samhevener said:


> I was around when UHF was introduced. You are missing the point I have been trying to make the past two months. UHF was introduced but the EXISTING VHF stations we were watching DID NOT go off the air. One did not have to install a converter to continue watching TV. To this date (50+ years later) you can still receive those VHF stations on your TV and NO need to have a UHF converter or UHF TV. This is different, the DTV tuners have only been mandatory in TVs sold from 2007 on. The EXISTING stations are going off the air too soon. It's a MAJOR change the American public will not accept. If I bet any amount of money on the delayed shutdown it would be like stealing your money. Lets keep it at a beer.


Well...don't forget UHF tuners were mandatory in all new TVs too... 

Also care must be taken regarding the statement, " DTV tuners have only been mandatory in TVs sold from 2007".

All TVs 36" or larger had to have digital tuners after July 1, 2005 (with 50% July 1, 2004)
All TVs 25" and larger had to have digital tuners after March 1, 2006 (which had been pushed up from July 1, 2006, btw.)
*All* devices with tuners had to include digital tuners after March 1, 2007 (also pushed up from July 1.)

This phase-in plan has not been nearly as short as you imply. And seems like a very nice balance: the higher cost TVs could afford to include higher cost tuners; as manufacturing of tuners became less expensive, the smaller TVs could afford to have tuners put in as well.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

JmC said:


> I stumbled upon this comparison of CECBs.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units


Good find, Jim. Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Geronimo

tcusta00 said:


> It's become an endless circular argument since there's no real proof one way or the other that the date will be pushed back, canceled or otherwise. I think we need to table the argument of whether the date will be changed - it's been discussed ad nauseum and it's all speculation on both sides. We've all spoken our peace and our positions are on the record for all to see. If the date gets pushed back we'll all be eating our feet and if not Sam will have his day in the sun. I don't think there's anything constructive left to say about the date changing or not anymore.


Agreed


----------



## cadet502

> Coupon Status Found
> Your coupons have been mailed. You should receive them within two to three weeks if you haven't already.


Two to three weeks??? Pony express?:lol:


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> I was around when UHF was introduced. You are missing the point I have been trying to make the past two months. UHF was introduced but the EXISTING VHF stations we were watching DID NOT go off the air. One did not have to install a converter to continue watching TV. To this date (50+ years later) you can still receive those VHF stations on your TV and NO need to have a UHF converter or UHF TV. This is different, the DTV tuners have only been mandatory in TVs sold from 2007 on. The EXISTING stations are going off the air too soon. It's a MAJOR change the American public will not accept. If I bet any amount of money on the delayed shutdown it would be like stealing your money. Lets keep it at a beer.


No, let's make it $500. A beer isn't worth the effort.

Or, stop tossing out "I'm willing to bet" lightly.

What happened to "see you in six months"?


----------



## samhevener

Tom and some of the others are correct. We are just going around and around on this thing. Too many people are too serious in the thread, no sense of humor. It's suppose to be fun, not a "shouting match". To answer your question on why I came back before six months is that 80% of the seniors I talk to in our senior groups have NO IDEA what is suppose to happen to the existing analog TV stations. Some think I am crazy when I tell them about the "shutdown". Many others could care less and will do nothing because they they are 100% sure the stations that have been on the air for 50+ years wouldn't dare go off the air and leave the viewers without any TV service. Congress responds to the over 60 group more than any other age group because of their very high voting record. I will get serious and change my bet from a beer to one DTV adapter coupon (unless it's against the law to bet them).


Kansas Zephyr said:


> No, let's make it $500. A beer isn't worth the effort.
> 
> Or, stop tossing out "I'm willing to bet" lightly.
> 
> What happened to "see you in six months"?


----------



## Cholly

Sam: If the seniors you talk to are ignorant of the digital transitionn, teach them. If you are really serious about this, print up some info sheets, explaining what the digital transition will mean to them, along with info regarding web sites and telephone numbers from which they can get more info. If they are in the AARP, tell them to read the article about the digital transition in the current issue of the AARP Newsletter. Call or write to your local newspaper, radio and TV stations and urge them to get the message out. 

By the very fact that you participate in this and other threads regarding the digital transition, you show that you are better informed than many members of the general public. Don't complain -- teach.


----------



## tcusta00

and _again_, the PSAs about the topic will increase as the time gets closer. We're still 11 months out and the boxes just hit the shelves a few weeks ago.


----------



## Tom Robertson

samhevener said:


> Tom and some of the others are correct. We are just going around and around on this thing. Too many people are too serious in the thread, no sense of humor. It's suppose to be fun, not a "shouting match". To answer your question on why I came back before six months is that 80% of the seniors I talk to in our senior groups have NO IDEA what is suppose to happen to the existing analog TV stations. Some think I am crazy when I tell them about the "shutdown". Many others could care less and will do nothing because they they are 100% sure the stations that have been on the air for 50+ years wouldn't dare go off the air and leave the viewers without any TV service. Congress responds to the over 60 group more than any other age group because of their very high voting record. I will get serious and change my bet from a beer to one DTV adapter coupon (unless it's against the law to bet them).


 Smilies, man, smilies!  Humor in short, printed form context is so hard to discern without them. 

Doug Brott will be giving a lecture series on the proper care and feeding of smilies. Stay tuned to your local DBStalk.com forums for more information. :lol:

(Just kidding, I think Doug will be teaching the graduate level class...)

Cheers and 's,
Tom


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> I will get serious and change my bet from a beer to one DTV adapter coupon (unless it's against the law to bet them).
> 
> Many others could care less and will do nothing because they they are 100% sure the stations that have been on the air for 50+ years wouldn't dare go off the air and leave the viewers without any TV service.


I'll let you off the hook, if you wish. The coupons are non-transferable. (I'm sure you knew that)

But, if you want to bet $40 (the value of a coupon), I'm still up for it. 

Those stations are NOT going off the air. They have been (most >90%, not ALL, I know) providing dual analog/digital broadcasts. They are only going to stop full-power analog.

Even without the coupon program, $40 will (Echostar's D to A price), for a analog TV's lifetime, allow it to receive OTA digital broadcasts. That's a very small, one-time cost, in today's world.


----------



## Drew2k

I love "forum bets" ... until the participants exchange mailing addresses and/or Paypal info, it's just a bunch of words!


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Drew2k said:


> I love "forum bets" ... until the participants exchange mailing addresses and/or Paypal info, it's just a bunch of words!


If the bet is ever accepted, that will happen!


----------



## samhevener

Thanks a million Tom.  Your reply gets to the point.


Tom Robertson said:


> Smilies, man, smilies!  Humor in short, printed form context is so hard to discern without them.
> 
> Doug Brott will be giving a lecture series on the proper care and feeding of smilies. Stay tuned to your local DBStalk.com forums for more information. :lol:
> 
> (Just kidding, I think Doug will be teaching the graduate level class...)
> 
> Cheers and 's,
> Tom


----------



## Upstream

Sam -- Just curious how your senior citizen friends feel about the new law which will outlaw incandescent light bulbs in the next couple of years? Do they realize that they will need to hire electricians to replace all the incandescent timers and dimmers they have in their homes? If you think television transition is painful, wait until the lights go out.


----------



## tcusta00

One world-ending problem at a time here, Upstream!


----------



## Geronimo

Actually CFLs will work with timers and dimmers---although it may shorten their useful life.


----------



## Upstream

Ger -- Not to go too far off topic, but most CFLs don't work with dimmers, and only work with specially designed timers and electronic switches (which are usually more expensive than the cheap incandescent timers and electronic controls most people have). Check out the fine print on the back of a CFL package, or check the website of a manufacturer (for example: sylvania)


----------



## tcusta00

My dimmers don't work with my CFLs - it's either on or off.


----------



## Drew2k

Time to close the can! 

:backtotop:


----------



## tcusta00

it was only 4 posts since we opened it, Drew!! 

But I agree...


----------



## Geronimo

tcusta00 said:


> My dimmers don't work with my CFLs - it's either on or off.


Mine do. I have never had a problem.


----------



## samhevener

Upstream said:


> . ..Sam -- Just curious how your senior citizen friends feel about the new law which will outlaw incandescent light bulbs in the next couple of years? Do they realize that they will need to hire electricians to replace all the incandescent timers and dimmers they have in their homes? If you think television transition is painful, wait until the lights go out.


When that happens one will be able to continue useing the existing incandescent bulbs until they wear out. That may be years for many of the bulbs in one's house. Your existing timers and dimmers won't be rendered useless without a change or modification on a given date. The change will be over many many years. That's everyone's big beef about the DTV transition. Instead of just allowing one's analog TVs to wear out and then replace them with DTV tuner TVs, it's BOOM, all high power stations shut down on a given date within a very short period of time.


----------



## scooper

But Sam - that's the whole point - this whole transition has been going for 10 years now ! Ask your local broadcasters (the full power ones) how long they have been transmitting Digital and in most areas, it has been since at least 2000.


----------



## Drew2k

tcusta00 said:


> it was only 4 posts since we opened it, Drew!!
> 
> But I agree...


But it doesn't stop with just "4 posts" ... see? So ...

:backtotop:


----------



## Upstream

the discussion of specific CFL characteristics is off topic.

the comparision of DTV transition to light bulb transition is on topic. In both cases the law is mandating obsolesence of an old technology. 

Although Sam is right that you can continue using incandescent bulbs after the cut-off date, people will continue to use analog televisions after the cut off date with governement-subsidized converters or cable/sat. And since the average incandescent bulb lasts 6 - 9 months, within the course of a year, people will have to replace timers and dimmers, which in some cases will require hiring an electrician.

In both cases, there will be some pain and confusion. And in both cases, people will manage to get through it.


----------



## tcusta00

samhevener said:


> That's everyone's big beef about the DTV transition. Instead of just allowing one's analog TVs to wear out and then replace them with DTV tuner TVs, it's BOOM, all high power stations shut down on a given date within a very short period of time.


You consistently contradict yourself. In one breath you say that no one knows about it and the next you say that everyone's beef is XYZ. Which is it? Does everyone know about it and have a beef or are people in the dark?  

Once again we're back to the chicken little theory.

IMHO.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> That's everyone's big beef about the DTV transition. Instead of just allowing one's analog TVs to wear out and then replace them with DTV tuner TVs, it's BOOM, all high power stations shut down on a given date within a very short period of time.


Last chance.

Are you taking the $40 bet?

Yes, or no.

BTW...the ATSC (the Advanced Television Systems Committee) is celebrating its 25th year.

There's no surprise BOOM. A lot of "ticking" has passed.


----------



## samhevener

scooper said:


> But Sam - that's the whole point - this whole transition has been going for 10 years now ! Ask your local broadcasters (the full power ones) how long they have been transmitting Digital and in most areas, it has been since at least 2000.


DTV tuners haven't been required or mandatory in all TVs sold the past 10 years. If they were, I would see no problem with the rushed transition. In fact Walmart is still selling TV sets without DVT tuners.


----------



## Cholly

samhevener said:


> DTV tuners haven't been required or mandatory in all TVs sold the past 10 years. If they were, I would see no problem with the rushed transition. In fact Walmart is still selling TV sets without DVT tuners.


Sam: I don't know where you get your information. Wal-Mart and all other big box stores no longer sell analog televisions. They sell receivers with NTSC/ATSC tuners by law. The only exception would be receivers that were manufactured or imported prior to March 1, 2007. Quoting from www.dtv.gov FAQ:

By law, beginning March 1, 2007, all television reception devices (including TVs, VCRs, DVRs, etc.) imported into the U.S. or shipped in interstate commerce must contain a digital tuner. Retailers may continue to sell analog-only devices from existing inventory, but must prominently display on or near the analog-only device a Consumer Alert label with this advisory

Consumer Alert

This television receiver has only an analog broadcast tuner and will require a converter box after February 17, 2009, to receive over-the-air broadcasts with an antenna because of the Nation's transition to digital broadcasting. Analog-only TVs should continue to work as before with cable and satellite TV services, gaming consoles, VCRs, DVD players, and similar products. For more information, call the Federal Communications Commission at 1-888-225-5322 (TTY: 1-888-835-5322) or visit the Commission's digital television website at: www.dtv.gov.

Therefore, all television equipment being sold should contain a digital tuner, or should be identified at the point-of-sale as not having one. Be aware of this label and the limitations of analog-only devices if you are purchasing a new TV or other TV equipment.


----------



## Geronimo

samhevener said:


> DTV tuners haven't been required or mandatory in all TVs sold the past 10 years. If they were, I would see no problem with the rushed transition. In fact Walmart is still selling TV sets without DVT tuners.


No they do not. they sell standard definitions ets but they have DIGITAL TUNERS.


----------



## Upstream

Actually Wal-Mart is still selling analog sets from their inventory, with the warning Cholly referenced.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> DTV tuners haven't been required or mandatory in all TVs sold the past 10 years. If they were, I would see no problem with the rushed transition. In fact Walmart is still selling TV sets without DVT tuners.


Yes, or no. $40 bet.

Answer please, then I'll drop it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Upstream said:


> Actually Wal-Mart is still selling analog sets from their inventory, with the warning Cholly referenced.


That's interesting, here both the Wal-Marts flushed out analog only sets last spring or early summer.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Geronimo

That set would have to be in inventory for a year. i doubt it.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Just to add my .02 to the idea that people aren't going to know about the transition....

Friday afternoon I had to run into Radio Shack - I needed a headphone splitter.... A quick little $5 purchase, no big deal.

I grabbed my receipt and I'm checking it out as I walked out the door. At the bottom of the receipt is a big box that says "Be ready for the switch to Ditital TV Broadcasting".... It goes on to say Digital converter boxes are available at Radioshack, and provides the website for Radio Shack's page on the transition, as well as to www.dtv2009.gov

I imagine that eventually places like Target and Walmart are going to do similar things... so if you go in to buy a pack of batteries, you're going to be reminded that this transition is coming and you may need a converter.... Especially if said establishment is selling the converter boxes.


----------



## tcusta00

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Just to add my .02 to the idea that people aren't going to know about the transition....
> 
> Friday afternoon I had to run into Radio Shack - I needed a headphone splitter.... A quick little $5 purchase, no big deal.
> 
> I grabbed my receipt and I'm checking it out as I walked out the door. At the bottom of the receipt is a big box that says "Be ready for the switch to Ditital TV Broadcasting".... It goes on to say Digital converter boxes are available at Radioshack, and provides the website for Radio Shack's page on the transition, as well as to www.dtv2009.gov
> 
> I imagine that eventually places like Target and Walmart are going to do similar things... so if you go in to buy a pack of batteries, you're going to be reminded that this transition is coming and you may need a converter.... Especially if said establishment is selling the converter boxes.


I was watching Jeopardy the other night and there was a PSA-type commercial on it...


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

tcusta00 said:


> I was watching Jeopardy the other night and there was a PSA-type commercial on it...


Those type of PSAs are just going to become more and more prevalent, I'm sure.

For people whose only method of watching TV is LIVE, OTA.... They're going to be the ones who most need the converters, in all liklihood. And they're going to have a hard time missing all the PSAs that show up.

I'm sure there will be some who don't realize the change is coming... or it sneaks up on them and they don't realize it's coming so soon... But, I think that most people are going to be aware of the changes and be prepared for them.


----------



## tcusta00

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Those type of PSAs are just going to become more and more prevalent, I'm sure.
> 
> For people whose only method of watching TV is LIVE, OTA.... They're going to be the ones who most need the converters, in all liklihood. And they're going to have a hard time missing all the PSAs that show up.
> 
> I'm sure there will be some who don't realize the change is coming... or it sneaks up on them and they don't realize it's coming so soon... But, I think that most people are going to be aware of the changes and be prepared for them.


Yep - and if they miss it then they're really not watching all that much TV to begin with so not much is lost, right?


----------



## hellyea

I have a HD "capable" tv, so it doesn't have a built in tuner. What kind of converter box will I need to actually send a signal from the converter box to the tv (HDMI?) so that its actually in HD? 

By looking at the specs of a few $40-$50 boxes, they all have composite video outputs which would be SD. I found the Samsung HDTV Terrestial Tuner box but its for $160ish. That's a lot! Shouldn't these come down as so many people could use one??


----------



## tcusta00

The boxes eligible for the converter coupons are on capable of 480i, sorry! Government specifically wrote that into the rules of the program. You'll have to spend your own money for an OTA tuner that will be HD capable.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

HDTV standalone tuners are going to be hard to find. I would suspect that if you're already a DIRECTV customer, DIRECTV's HR20 makes a pretty good OTA receiver, and its brother the HR21 will soon have that capability as well.


----------



## scooper

I have one of the Samsung DTB-H260F HDTV tuners, and it is DEFINATELY worth it. It doesn't work very well as the $40-$60 CECBs in that use, but to feed a 16:9 HDTV it is about the best thing out there.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

You can get an external HDTV tuner at BB or CC. (Yes...I mean a HDTV tuner, not a D to A converter)

They are not that hard to find. Just, plan on paying >$125ish.

A co-worker with a HD-monitor just picked one up at CC, last week. He's raving about the free OTA HD.


----------



## Mike500

I'm almost sure that the manufacturers will start offering HD OTA tuners with both true HDTV and QAM capability for not much more than the current in store price of the CEB converter boxes, once the Coupon Program has exhausted the coupons that there being issued.

In effect, the coupon program will lowered the cost of those OTA tuners currently selling for $160-$200 made for those HD ready monitors and NTSC HD Ready TV's.

There will be a need for the QAM capable converter boxes as cable companies move anything but the broadcast DMA channels to digital.


----------



## Nick

I'm old and I'm tired and I don't have the energy to change out all of my old-
fashioned energy-sucking light bulbs. Can anyone tell me where I can get
25 of those newfangled incandescent-to-CFL (I/C) adapters? :scratch:

I'm also looking for a whole-house digital-to-analog (d/a) converter. Anyone? 

:sure:


----------



## Old Tv Watcher

jacksonm30354 said:


> Most of America won't even know it happened. Most people have cable or satellite so nothing will change for them.
> 
> The sky is not falling.


 I don't agree. I think most people have a couple TV's with cable & Satillite but have other analog TV's using an attenna. I have 13 TV's in my house.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Old Tv Watcher said:


> I don't agree. I think most people have a couple TV's with cable & Satillite but have other analog TV's using an attenna. I have 13 TV's in my house.


At 13 TV's the government plans assume you can afford the extra $40 per TV beyond the first two. Heck you might even get a volume discount. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jclewter79

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6543745.html

Looks like the auction got everybody's tax dollars back.


----------



## jclewter79

hellyea said:


> I have a HD "capable" tv, so it doesn't have a built in tuner. What kind of converter box will I need to actually send a signal from the converter box to the tv (HDMI?) so that its actually in HD?
> 
> By looking at the specs of a few $40-$50 boxes, they all have composite video outputs which would be SD. I found the Samsung HDTV Terrestial Tuner box but its for $160ish. That's a lot! Shouldn't these come down as so many people could use one??


When Demand is up prices stay up that is the rules of supply and demand. You can probably find a dvd recorder with a built in tuner for cheaper.


----------



## Mike500

The reason that HDTV tuners were not supplied with the original "HD Ready TV's" was because the early versions 10 years ago were on the $2.000 price point. Some were $600 just three years ago.

The coupon program will eventually bring the HDTV boxes down. It would be stupid for the chip manufacturers to not have built in QAM and 1080i or 1080p capability into the chips.

To insure compliance with the DTV Conversion Coupon mandate, the internal connections to those processing areas may not have been connected, making them nearly impossible for the aftermarket to modify, without destroying the chip.

The price of the QAM and HDTV boxes will have to come down in price.


----------



## Steve615

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6544989.html?industryid=48696


----------



## MistyEyes

There is a major flaw to this new system, as of right now. 
For people that live in states that always lose power, sometimes 
for weeks at a time, having a converter box that runs on 
electricity, is rather stupid!

Our "BIG BROTHER" govt. missed the mark on this one big time. 
They didn't plan ahead for the necessary implementation of battery 
powered converter boxes, to go along with the analog battery 
powered TVs that are already out there. 
If they are going to be available, there has been NO buzz about it!

The folks in the flood zones, tornado zones and hurricane zones 
I guess will be out of luck when the power goes down. Good luck! 

Does anyone know if battery powered converter boxes are in the works?

Also does anyone know of battery powered digital TVs 
THAT ARE *AFFORDABLE*??

These are problems many of us are facing in less than 1 year!!!


----------



## Geronimo

Nick said:


> I'm old and I'm tired and I don't have the energy to change out all of my old-
> fashioned energy-sucking light bulbs. Can anyone tell me where I can get
> 25 of those newfangled incandescent-to-CFL (I/C) adapters? :scratch:
> 
> I'm also looking for a whole-house digital-to-analog (d/a) converter. Anyone?
> 
> :sure:


I will be by sometime in the seventh month (on the new digital calendar) to convert your light bulbs. It will take longer to convert your house to digital but the real challenge will be converting your eyes to receive the new digital light spectrum.

I suggest you just keep your eytes closed until the whole conversion is complete.


----------



## Tom Robertson

MistyEyes said:


> There is a major flaw to this new system, as of right now.
> For people that live in states that always lose power, sometimes
> for weeks at a time, having a converter box that runs on
> electricity, is rather stupid!
> 
> Our "BIG BROTHER" govt. missed the mark on this one big time.
> They didn't plan ahead for the necessary implementation of battery
> powered converter boxes, to go along with the analog battery
> powered TVs that are already out there.
> If they are going to be available, there has been NO buzz about it!
> 
> The folks in the flood zones, tornado zones and hurricane zones
> I guess will be out of luck when the power goes down. Good luck!
> 
> Does anyone know if battery powered converter boxes are in the works?
> 
> Also does anyone know of battery powered digital TVs
> THAT ARE *AFFORDABLE*??
> 
> These are problems many of us are facing in less than 1 year!!!


My guess is the government felt it unnecessary to give such units away to the public in general. If you want such a unit, the cost is $30 for a UPS that should hold the unit for awhile.

If I lived in an area that lost power for weeks at a time, regularly and often, I would definitely have a generator.

As it is, since we have been experiencing power blips every week or so and I found an excellent deal on UPSs, I have all my DVRs on UPS. (Which could also supply one of my very small TVs.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MistyEyes

Tom Robertson said:


> My guess is the government felt it unnecessary to give such units away to the public in general. If you want such a unit, the cost is $30 for a UPS that should hold the unit for awhile.
> If I lived in an area that lost power for weeks at a time, regularly and often, I would definitely have a generator.
> As it is, since we have been experiencing power blips every week or so and I found an excellent deal on UPSs, I have all my DVRs on UPS. (Which could also supply one of my very small TVs.
> Cheers,
> Tom


We have an old small UPS. We are lucky as we are computer people. 
Thinks about all of those that are not.

I am kinda biting my tongue here and squelching my feelings about 
'being told' that I MUST COMPLY by this date, OR ELSE! 
It is now happening with the ethanol. 
WE MUST COMPLY BY NEXT YEAR! 
W.T.H. is next? 
Your dogs and cats MUST COMPLY and be spay or neutered or pay an exorbitant fee, 
and IF they become pregnant rut-ro. You PAY the consequence! 
or You MUST COMPLY and buy an exorbitant breeders fee, 
IF you intend for your animal to have maybe 1 litter. 
You MUST COMPLY and line up to get toilet paper. 
YOU MUST GIVE YOUR PAYCHECK TO THE .... 
YOU MUST COMPLY!

1984 is HERE!


----------



## cawgijoe

I hate all this anti-govt talk......folks......this transition is going to happen whether you like it or not......most people will not be affected because they already subscribe to cable, FIOS, or satellite......and the rest are getting a break on converter boxes if they don't want to purchase new digital TV's.

Give me a break!


----------



## tcusta00

I agree, cawgijoe, but there's always going to be the portion of the population that thinks this way. But therein lies the beauty of our country - you are free to think the way you want to and express yourself. And we are all free to disagree :sure:


----------



## MistyEyes

cawgijoe said:


> I hate all this anti-govt talk......folks......this transition is going to happen whether you like it or not......most people will not be affected because they already subscribe to cable, FIOS, or satellite......and the rest are getting a break on converter boxes if they don't want to purchase new digital TV's.
> Give me a break!


OK I'll give you a break, now come and live without electricity for 
2 + weeks whenever we get a hurricane!

I HAVE satellite, but it doesn't make a S*** Bit of difference if I have my battery powered TV, 
(that I purchased expressly for power outages, which happens ALL the time in my community) cause I can NOT use them 
IF there is no battery powered digital converter for that TV.

For many people that went through hurricane Wilma, and hurricane Katrina, and were lucky enough to have a battery powered TV, 
that was their ONLY means of getting ANY word from the outside world.

OH .. and 1 more thing, nothing to do with disasters or outages ... 
Think about our older Americans, and the poorer communities of this USA, and many of these people depend on their 
VERY VERY tiny incomes, and the TV is the ONLY escape that they have, they STILL can NOT afford a discounted box, 
and dern well can not afford a new digital TV! 
Believe it or not, many still have old B&W TVs!

Some people need to think before they react!

So I'll give you a break. 
SWAP PLACES WITH ALL OF US!

--
I hate getting on a friggin soapbox, but unless you live it 
you have NO idea! PURE HELL!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Please, let's tone it down a little bit. You've all made your points.


----------



## tcusta00

MistyEyes said:


> Think about our older Americans, and the poorer communities of this USA, and many of these people depend on their
> VERY VERY tiny incomes, and the TV is the ONLY escape that they have, they STILL can NOT afford a discounted box,


There's someone in America that can't afford free?  

You know there's a box coming out in a little while that will be $40, which, after the coupon is applied, will be $0.00.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

MistyEyes said:


> For many people that went through hurricane Wilma, and hurricane Katrina, and were lucky enough to have a battery powered TV,
> that was their ONLY means of getting ANY word from the outside world.


What, radio didn't work? As a former Floridian, I know that local radio simulcasts the local TVs audio, during hurricane emergencies.

Battery powered digital TVs will become available, and cheaper with time.

CECBs can still be eligible if they have a battery power option. I'm sure if a strong enough demand presents itself, they will be made. (Who knows, there may be a battery mod posted after some experimenters start playing around with the current boxes.)

Remember you were "forced" to stop using Beta tapes, too. Still using 8-tracks?


----------



## Cholly

Not wishing to beat the subject to death, but I do feel compelled to make a comment. Battery powered TV's are useless in an extended power outage. Once the battery dies, if the power is out, it can't be recharged.
OTOH, battery powered radios generally rely upon replaceable alkaline batteries. As long as you have a supply on hand, you're OK.


----------



## MistyEyes

Cholly said:


> Not wishing to beat the subject to death, but I do feel compelled to make a comment. Battery powered TV's are useless in an extended power outage. Once the battery dies, if the power is out, it can't be recharged.
> OTOH, battery powered radios generally rely upon replaceable alkaline batteries. As long as you have a supply on hand, you're OK.


car batteries 
 
work wonders during an outage for battery tvs 
and .. during outages I should hope one wouldn't leave the set on 24/7. 
and .. radios are great if you own one.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

MistyEyes said:


> car batteries
> 
> work wonders during an outage for battery tvs
> and .. during outages I should hope one wouldn't leave the set on 24/7.
> and .. radios are great if you own one.


+1

Most battery powered TVs also have car power plugs (formerly known as cigarette lighter adapters  ).

Who doesn't have/can't get a radio? I still have my wind-up AM/FM for just such an extended outage.


----------



## scooper

+1 

In the emergency part of the closet - sits various battery powered lights and a windup radio. Mine also has a solar cell...


----------



## Drew2k

Walmart, Best Buy and others fined by the FCC for failing to disclose the analog shutdown. From BetaNews



> *FCC issues $6 million in DTV fines to Wal-Mart, others*
> April 11 - 1:23 PM ET
> 
> The Federal Communications Commission has exacted fines on retailers found to not be fully advising customers about the DTV transition, including Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Circuit City, and Target; as well as a number of CE manufacturers.


----------



## tcusta00

Instead of (or in addition to) the fines they ought to be spending the money on compensating those who purchased the TVs or offer a free converter box. Instead, that money goes into the government coffers. Unless I'm missing something.


----------



## Cholly

tcusta00 said:


> Instead of (or in addition to) the fines they ought to be spending the money on compensating those who purchased the TVs or offer a free converter box. Instead, that money goes into the government coffers. Unless I'm missing something.


You must be missing something, then. It's been quite some time since new analog TV's have been made. Merchants were allowed to sell their existing inventory of analog TV's, but were required to inform customers about the digital transition. Some stores failed to notify their customers properly (they didn't display the required warning label on or near the analog TV's) and that's the reason for the fines.
Interestingly, the cable networks (MSNBC, CNN, MTV, TNT, etc.) are not bound by the digital transition requirements -- only full power broadcast stations have to go digital.


----------



## tcusta00

Cholly said:


> You must be missing something, then. It's been quite some time since new analog TV's have been made. Merchants were allowed to sell their existing inventory of analog TV's, but were required to inform customers about the digital transition. Some stores failed to notify their customers properly (they didn't display the required warning label on or near the analog TV's) and that's the reason for the fines.
> Interestingly, the cable networks (MSNBC, CNN, MTV, TNT, etc.) are not bound by the digital transition requirements -- only full power broadcast stations have to go digital.


What am I missing?

New TV standards rolled out. 
Analog TVs still allowed to be sold as long as they have the disclaimer posted. 
Some retailers didn't post disclaimer. 
Customers get screwed. 
Companies get fined by government. 
Customers get nothing.

What did I miss?


----------



## Drew2k

I should think that any retailer trying to unload analog TVs still in their inventory would be *giving away* the converter free with the purchase of the TV ...


----------



## Cholly

tcusta00 said:


> What am I missing?
> 
> New TV standards rolled out.
> Analog TVs still allowed to be sold as long as they have the disclaimer posted.
> Some retailers didn't post disclaimer.
> Customers get screwed.
> Companies get fined by government.
> Customers get nothing.
> 
> What did I miss?


How would you propose that the retailers who sold the TV's without the disclaimer determine who purchased them? Granted, they did their customers a disservice. However, there's no way they can tell just who didn't get informed. Therefore, the customers, as you say, get nothing. On the other hand, the customers probably made a choice to buy those TV's, which were no doubt cheaper than their digital counterparts at the time, and in most instances *more than $40 cheaper.*. Assuming the were to buy a $50 converter with a coupon, they're still money ahead. 
The retailers got punished for failing to inform their customers. The customers got punished (or possibly inconvenienced) for failing to be well-informed (with or without disclaimers).

To Drew2K: Why should the retailers give away converter boxes? These sets were all sold long before converter boxes became available. The fines were levied for sales made after the disclaimer was mandated, but before converter boxes came out.


----------



## Drew2k

Cholly said:


> To Drew2K: Why should the retailers give away converter boxes? These sets were all sold long before converter boxes became available. The fines were levied for sales made after the disclaimer was mandated, but before converter boxes came out.


As you say, it was after the mandate to provide disclaimers, so having the disclaimer AND giving away the converter box could have made it more enticing to the consumer to buy the "lame duck" analog sets that the retailer still had on hand...

The fact that the converter box wasn't available yet doesn't mean the store can't give it away with their own "voucher" to be redeemed after the converters arrived.


----------



## tcusta00

Cholly said:


> How would you propose that the retailers who sold the TV's without the disclaimer determine who purchased them? Granted, they did their customers a disservice. However, there's no way they can tell just who didn't get informed.


A receipt.


----------



## Cholly

tcusta00 said:


> A receipt.


Nope. That's not evidence they weren't informed. Besidess, people who are bargain hunters aren't apt to keep receipts.

As an aside -- in the case of the big box stores, it wasn't chain wide -- only in a few stores where department managers either didn't get the word or just plain failed to post notices. Worst case was KMart, as I recall, where 16 stores were said to have failed to provide disclaimers.

Were buyers of leftover previous model year cars entitled to have air bags installed for free when new models came out with airbags as a result of new laws? Of course not.

In the marketplace, it's a matter of "buyer beware". In this case, though, the retailers received a slap on the wrist for the lack of due diligence on the part of a few of their stores. Doesn't really hurt their bottom line too much, but it could well be that some lower management folks got either sent to the sin bin or canned.


----------



## WNBT Channel 1

Does anyone know how much of the 700MHZ spectrum will be reassigned or to be reassigned when the DTV transition is complete? What percentage of this "reassigned" spectrum will go to "first responders" and what percentage has gone to business via the frequency auction?


----------



## jclewter79

I can see both sides of this arguement but, with airbags the cars that did not have them still preformed their intended dutied after the laws to require them were inacted. That is not the case with these tv's. Again apples are being compared to oranges


----------



## Nick

> The FCC last week made its revised information order regarding the digital TV
> transition official by publishing it in the Federal Register, giving involved companies
> until May 30 to comply with the new rules.
> 
> Under terms of the order, every TV, DVR or set-top shipped to this country by CE
> manufacturers must include information about the DTV switch. Oddly enough,
> even cable-only stb's that don't include a TV receiver have to include the notice.
> 
> Also, the FCC will now require service providers to include DTV information in
> monthly notices to their customers whe reside in low-income areas.


"Low income" areas? :shrug:


----------



## Paul Secic

Kansas Zephyr said:


> I'll be willing to lose a few real dollars. Come on, put your money, where your mouth is. Say $100?
> 
> Probably because the digital signal is currently on UHF. If they return to VHF after the cut-off, that issue may be solved.
> 
> What did people do when UHF was introduced? They either had to buy a tuner, or get a new TV. That was before SS, but I'm sure there were widows then, too. But, I guess our society now considers TV a necessity, instead of a luxury.


Social Security begun in the 1930's sir.


----------



## Paul Secic

Cholly said:


> Not wishing to beat the subject to death, but I do feel compelled to make a comment. Battery powered TV's are useless in an extended power outage. Once the battery dies, if the power is out, it can't be recharged.
> OTOH, battery powered radios generally rely upon replaceable alkaline batteries. As long as you have a supply on hand, you're OK.


Crane.com has the Free Play radio which has a small solar panel on top, a crank at the back, a big LED on it's side. AM, FM, Shortwave, TV bands. Price: $99.00. No mess, no fuss. I've got mine on my deck charging.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Paul Secic said:


> Social Security begun in the 1930's sir.


My bad...now, did that error invalidate the rest of my post?


----------



## Bill R

Paul Secic said:


> Crane.com has the Free Play radio which has a small solar panel on top, a crank at the back, a big LED on it's side. AM, FM, Shortwave, TV bands.


The receiver has an analog TV tuner. It will be useless after next February.


----------



## Jim5506

Bill R said:


> The receiver has an analog TV tuner. It will be useless after next February.


Does anybody make a converter box with a crank on the side of it?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Nope  (fun question tho)

The Consumer Electronics Essociation, CEA, occasionally posts links to articles talking about the issue of portable TVs and emergency situations. Yes, manufacturers are making portable DTVs, but it will take time for the base of products to be in people's hands.

So let's not have any emergencies after Februrary 17, 2009 for at least a couple years. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Nick

> *One-Minute Analog Shutdown Set for Wilmington Market*
> 
> With the switch less than six months away, the nation's transition to digital TV will get a preliminary test this week.
> 
> The Wilmington, N.C., market has been selected as a trial location for the nation's switch to digital TV, with the area making the change from analog signals on Sept. 8. As a precursor to the switch next month, stations in the Wilmington market will turn off their analog feeds for one minute Tuesday, starting at 7:30 p.m.
> 
> Stations participating in the one-minute shut-off are ABC affiliate WWAY, NBC affiliate WECT, Fox affiliate WSFX and CBS affiliate WILM.
> 
> Station owners in the market said the one-minute shutdown will give consumers an opportunity to determine whether they are ready for the transition.


Source: TheMorningBridge.com


----------



## Tom Robertson

Nick said:


> Source: TheMorningBridge.com


This will be an interesting story to watch. Hope it goes as smoothly as it can--ie minor burps.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Paul Secic

Nick said:


> Source: TheMorningBridge.com


I wonder why there arn't more transitions ads?


----------



## Cholly

Paul Secic said:


> I wonder why there arn't more transitions ads?


I don't know about your area of the country, but here in NC, we see them quite frequently.


----------



## tcusta00

Yeah, we've been bombarded with them. In addition to seeing them all the time on the networks and cable channels I saw one on an airplane last week... And it was an international flight.


----------



## Drew2k

NYC is definitely bombarded with them. Every local channel (and there are lots of them) has PSAs, and almost every local newscast once a night ends with a notice about the February cutoff.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I know why I don't see more ads... DVRs are great! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Nick

*US Senator Warns of 'Cliff-effect'*


> *Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar writes FCC, NTIA with concerns
> about the DTV 'cliff effect' where some viewers may lose OTA
> signals even if they buy new ATSC sets or DTV converters*
> 
> By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable
> 
> Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.) wrote the Federal Communications Commission and the National Telecommunications and Information Administration to reiterate her concerns about the DTV "cliff effect."
> 
> She pointed out that 21% of her state relies on over-the-air TV and said the FCC and industry need to educate consumers about the issue.
> 
> Unlike analog broadcasters, where a weakening signal means an increasingly weak picture, when a digital signal gets weak enough, there is no picture at all. In addition, the coverage areas of digital can vary from analog, as was the case in Wilmington, N.C.
> 
> The solution may be repositioning or upgrading antennas, but for some fraction, it will mean losing access to that TV-station signal. Klobuchar said not enough has been done to educate viewers that some may lose their signals even if they buy new DTV sets or converter boxes. ...


More @ Broadcasting & Cable


----------



## Nick

* The Morning Bridge: *


> Few Calls Generated by Wilmington DTV Switch
> 
> The FCC said the help-line phone number it established as part of the Wilmington, N.C., transition to digital TV this week received only a handful of calls from consumers, given the size of the East Coast market.
> 
> The Wilmington area has an estimated 400,000 viewers living in 180,000 households, of which nearly 14,000 receive over-the-air television. On Monday, the first day of the transition in the market, 797 area residents, or less than one-half of one percent of area homes, called the helpline asking questions and seeking assistance with the switch, the FCC said.
> 
> The next day, Sept. 9, the number of calls to the help-line totaled 424.
> 
> Out of all the calls received by the help-line, just 23 were from consumers who said they were not aware of the switch to digital TV or did not know the date of the transition, the FCC said. About 160 calls were from viewers who had initial difficulty in setting up converter boxes. Another 178 were from viewers who were experiencing problems with reception or had other technical issues, the FCC said.
> 
> A large number of calls (232) were related to viewer inability to locate the Wilmington NBC affiliate, WECT. Prior to the digital TV switch, the station's signal was available to viewers outside the television market as far south as Myrtle Beach, S.C., and as far north as Raleigh, N.C. The Wilmington NBC affiliate's new coverage area does not include these out of market communities, the FCC said.


Source: http://www.mediabiz.com/archives/view/?publication_id=17&release_id=485


----------



## FTA Michael

The headline in Broadcasting and Cable: FCC's Martin: DTV Converter-Box Subsidy May Dry Up

"FCC Chairman Kevin Martin has told Capitol Hill he is concerned that the DTV-to-analog converter box coupon subsidy program could run out of money before it runs out of requests for the $40 coupons."

More here: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6602924.html


----------



## brant

Nick said:


> *US Senator Warns of 'Cliff-effect'*More @ Broadcasting & Cable


I have this problem with my local PBS station. I'm almost dead center of two overlapping PBS signals. My analog signal was always weak, but I can't get the DTV signal at all. I've written GPTV about this and received no reply from them. Getting their signal OTA would save a couple of bucks I have to pay extra to dish just to get my PBS station.


----------



## scooper

FTA Michael said:


> The headline in Broadcasting and Cable: FCC's Martin: DTV Converter-Box Subsidy May Dry Up
> 
> "FCC Chairman Kevin Martin has told Capitol Hill he is concerned that the DTV-to-analog converter box coupon subsidy program could run out of money before it runs out of requests for the $40 coupons."
> 
> More here: http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6602924.html


Well, Duh !

What did they THINK was going to happen ?


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

scooper said:


> Well, Duh !
> 
> What did they THINK was going to happen ?


Maybe they THOUGHT to start with X amount of dollars.

...and SEE how many coupons WOULD actually be requested.

THEN increase the funding if necessary.

The government auction netted around $19.6B. So, they can double the program for a total cost of $2.7B, and still have quite the surplus. (That instantly evaporates thanks to the federal deficit)


----------



## From The Fray To The Grav

I really like the DTVPal and the Tivax STB-T8 those converter boxes seem to work the best. Unfortunately I just found out my small town won't be making the transition and I get horrible static on my channels as is. :-(


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

From The Fray To The Grav said:


> I really like the DTVPal and the Tivax STB-T8 those converter boxes seem to work the best. Unfortunately I just found out my small town won't be making the transition and I get horrible static on my channels as is. :-(


They will eventually, just hang on.

At some point the FCC will set a date for LPs, translators, and class-As to go digital.


----------



## jimstick

Sorry if this has been asked, or if this is not the right place (maybe somebody could redirect me), but my question is:

I have directv with HD. I get my locals in HD OTA for my HD plasma. I also get my locals through directv, NOT HD for my other 2 analog TV's. The market I am in is not even close to getting HD locals thru directv. Am I still going to receive my locals thru directv, or will I need a converter box? In other words, are my locals going to continue to send the analog signals to directv, will they come up with another non HD digital channel to replace the non HD analog channel, or will I get some sort of crappy non HD conversion of the HD channel? Or, will I need a converter box to convert my OTA digital to analog and have to switch inputs on my analog TV to switch between directv and only receive locals from my antenna? 
Clear as mud?
Any info would be appreciated.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

If you get your locals now via ANY cable or sat provider, you will continue to get them after Feb 17, 2009.

D* and E* either have, or will before the deadline, simply capture the locals' digital signals and down-convert them for those with analog RF only equipment, or SD LiL only markets.

The only caveat is that cable companies are only required to provide analog local TV channels as long as they provide ANY analog service. So, if/when they decide to deploy only digital service and terminate all analog, at that time, subscribers will be forced to rent/lease a set-top-box.

For D* and E*, the vast majority of their subs are analog. So, I think it will be years and years before those providers no longer offer receivers with analog RF outputs.


----------



## jimstick

Thank you, so much! That answers my question.
You guys are the best!
Now, the only problem I will have is when the local CBS digital channel drops out like it does every other day, I will not have an analog to fall back on. Are there going to be any regulations regarding quality of signal when we are stuck with only digital? Cause right now, it's horrible.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

jimstick said:


> Thank you, so much! That answers my question.
> You guys are the best!
> Now, the only problem I will have is when the local CBS digital channel drops out like it does every other day, I will not have an analog to fall back on. Are there going to be any regulations regarding quality of signal when we are stuck with only digital? Cause right now, it's horrible.


Go to tvfool.com and look at the current and final channel assignments for your locale.

The majority of VHF Hi (7-13) stations are planning to terminate their current digital UHF signal, and "move" the digital signal back to their original VHF RF channel after Feb 17, 2009.

If so, this should eliminate the problem.

Or, some stations are using lower powered "temp" digital signals, with the full build-out hopefully completed by the end of full-power analog.


----------



## jimstick

Thanks again!
That's very interesting, and something I did not know.


----------



## VegasDen

Two National tests will be conducted:

Dec. 17, 2008 - 7:30 p.m. voluntary nationwide analog shut-off test by U.S. full-power TV broadcast stations. 

Jan. 17, 2009 - 7:30 p.m. voluntary nationwide analog shut-off test by U.S. full-power TV broadcast stations.

From what I can tell from various releases, the time is local in the respective time zones. Tests are approximately 2 minutes in duration.

FYI:
Jan. 15, 2009 - Hawaii full-power broadcasters make digital TV transition.


----------



## Steve615

Here is a link to a recently updated ( 12/10/08 ) list in regards to when,where and what times the testing will occur.
The info contained in the link is in the form of a PDF file.

https://www.ntiadtv.gov/docs/Analog_Shut-off_Test_List.pdf


----------



## phox_mulder

VegasDen said:


> Two National tests will be conducted:
> 
> Dec. 17, 2008 - 7:30 p.m. voluntary nationwide analog shut-off test by U.S. full-power TV broadcast stations.


Hmmm, no shutdown test in this neck of the woods yesterday.

We just ran a crawl all day long on the analog side saying it was 62 days till the transition.
All the local stations were supposed to run it, per the FCC Lawyer.
Most of them stopped running it before Noon.
We were good little soldiers and ran it from midnight to midnight.

phox


----------



## Struff

I am frustrated at the conversion. We have two TV's that are not on sat or cable: one is part of a boombox and the other is in the kitchen and is literally used just around dinner time to listen to the news while cooking/eating/cleaning. 

It really annoys me that I won't be able to use the boombox TV on battery anymore when the power goes out and watch the news during a storm. Unless I can find a battery powered DTV converter box. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? (I'm sure I know the answer to this but it doesn't hurt to ask, right?)

The kitchen TV is hooked up to an old-school antenna on the roof and it gets some decent OTA signals on four channels and really good strong signals on two channels. But using the DTV converter box it gets nothing at all. I added a signal amp inline but still nothing. I bought a $40 amplified indoor antenna in case something was wrong with the old aerial on the roof but still nothing. However when I use the analog-pass-thru I get everything as I always have. Anyone have any ideas or advice? 

Thanks.


----------



## tcusta00

Struff said:


> I am frustrated at the conversion. We have two TV's that are not on sat or cable: one is part of a boombox and the other is in the kitchen and is literally used just around dinner time to listen to the news while cooking/eating/cleaning.
> 
> It really annoys me that I won't be able to use the boombox TV on battery anymore when the power goes out and watch the news during a storm. Unless I can find a battery powered DTV converter box. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing? (I'm sure I know the answer to this but it doesn't hurt to ask, right?)
> 
> The kitchen TV is hooked up to an old-school antenna on the roof and it gets some decent OTA signals on four channels and really good strong signals on two channels. But using the DTV converter box it gets nothing at all. I added a signal amp inline but still nothing. I bought a $40 amplified indoor antenna in case something was wrong with the old aerial on the roof but still nothing. However when I use the analog-pass-thru I get everything as I always have. Anyone have any ideas or advice?
> 
> Thanks.


Have you tried going to antennaweb or one of the antenna sites to see if you're buying the correct antenna? You may want to try that to see if you can narrow it down to the specific signals being sent by your local networks.

Boombox is a lost cause I'm afraid. I believe there are a few battery powered digital portable TVs out or coming out if you want to replace it.


----------



## scooper

CECB with optional battery pack - 
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=RC-DT09A

Link to battery pack
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=RC-BP9V

That being said - you still need a proper antenna for your situation.


----------



## Struff

tcusta00 said:


> Have you tried going to antennaweb or one of the antenna sites to see if you're buying the correct antenna? You may want to try that to see if you can narrow it down to the specific signals being sent by your local networks.
> 
> Boombox is a lost cause I'm afraid. I believe there are a few battery powered digital portable TVs out or coming out if you want to replace it.


antennaweb...yes, I forgot to mention them. They're not even close to accurate for me. They say that I should get four analog channels but out of those, one I never heard of before and another is so weak that it has never been viewable for us. And they don't list at all the channel which is by far the strongest OTA signal I get. But even though I don't have any faith in them, I did go with their recommendation for a powered antenna and it doesn't get anything at all.


----------



## Struff

scooper said:


> CECB with optional battery pack -
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=RC-DT09A
> 
> Link to battery pack
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=RC-BP9V
> 
> That being said - you still need a proper antenna for your situation.


Cool, I will check those out (once I get an antenna that works).

Thanks.


----------



## Steve615

From Yahoo & AP:
The state of Hawaii got a head start on the digital transition earlier today.
According to the following article,Hawaii went ahead and shut the analog signal down,making the move to digital official for their residents.

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090115/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition


----------



## Mightyram

Our local CBS station engineer stated the other day that the effective range of the digital signal is less when compared to analog. I did some searching on this topic and found the following.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12878.cfm


> One major advantage of DTV is that the quality is relatively even for everyone who recieves a particular broadcast. The reason for this is that, unlike analog broadcasts, when a digital signal degrades to the point where analog image or sound quality would suffer it simply drops out completely. Rather than getting a lower quality picture you get none at all.


So - if you are able to receive the analog now you may not be able to receive the digital signal. He did state they and NAB are petitioning the FCC to allow them to increase the transmission power and have also file an application for their station to increase their broadcasting power.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Thanks for the update, Mightyram!


----------



## lhasaluvers

I notice pixel dots appearing on the screen and thought it was the convergence on my Panny Rear Projection. There were many of them tonight on the 76er's basketball game on Comcast Philaderphia. I also have noticed lately on Hallmark channel there were many times the scene jumped forward like a 2 second fast forward. This must be one of the problems we are getting with the switch to DTV. I hope once they get it switched over they correct this. It looked like when a player slam dunked the basketball it shook the camera.


----------



## lhasaluvers

I have just recently been getting flashes of pixels across my screen like a bad DVD disc will sometimes give you. I thought it was the convergence on my Panny Rear Projection. There were many of them tonight on the 76er's basketball game on Comcast Philaderphia. I also have noticed lately on Hallmark channel there were many times the scene jumped forward like a 2 second fast forward. Do you think this might be one of the problems we are getting with the switch to DTV. I hope once they get it switched over they correct this. It looked like when a player slam dunked the basketball it shook the camera.


----------



## hasan

Our local 5 (abc), 8 (cbs) and 11 (pbs) stations are going to retain analog for the duration (announced yesterday).

NBC (13), Fox (17) and some others are shutting down analog on Feb 17.

This is for the Des Moines, IA DMA


----------



## Pepster

hasan said:


> Our local 5 (abc), 8 (cbs) and 11 (pbs) stations are going to retain analog for the duration (announced yesterday).
> 
> NBC (13), Fox (17) and some others are shutting down analog on Feb 17.
> 
> This is for the Des Moines, IA DMA


I've heard nothing regarding what the multitude of of stations that blanket the N.Y.C. TV market will be doing & leaving questions for e-mail responses have given me no information. :nono2:


----------



## zman977

Pepster said:


> I've heard nothing regarding what the multitude of of stations that blanket the N.Y.C. TV market will be doing & leaving questions for e-mail responses have given me no information. :nono2:


First I wanted to say I'm back on the DBS talk board. It's been way too long sense I've been on. It is nice to be back. Now on topic, I've been trying to find out the same with the Chicago area. I know the network O&O's will maintain their anologue signals but I"m curious about WGN TV, WTTW, WYCC, WCIU, WGBO, WXFT, and WYIN. It is possible someone may have already mentioned it and I just over looked it. It is a long thread and I just could have missed it. But I had heard that WGN and WYCC are going to shut off their anologue signals but I can't find anywhere that confirms that. I've also had no luck with the station web sites

It is nice to be back with satelite TV (We have Direct TV's HD pack) with an HD DVR and I look forward to rejoining the discussions.


----------



## tnsprin

Pepster said:


> I've heard nothing regarding what the multitude of of stations that blanket the N.Y.C. TV market will be doing & leaving questions for e-mail responses have given me no information. :nono2:


For tonight WMBC (NOT WNBC the NBC afiiliate) will end its Analog broadcasts. The others have decided to wait to June 12. On June 12 there will be lots of channel movement, some to there old frequencies and others to new different digital assignments.

Several others the are not NYC but can be seen by some in NY already converted. see FCC chart for all full power stations.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-288530A2.pdf


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## leww37334

Two analog stations went dark in the Huntsville Al DMA

Huntsville AL population 171,000/2.59 household size = 66023 households.

Huntsville Al newspaper reports problems in approximately 400 households

.6 percent problem rate.

anybody else want to report their numbers?


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## Cholly

Still over 4 million homes not ready for DTV. No indication in the article as to how many are in areas not served by cable. There's no shortage of converters.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/162038/article.html?tk=nl_dnxnws


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## Nick

*Haven't we done this already?*

*From MediaBiz.com*

Given the new DTV cutoff date of June 12, the Federal Communications Commission has asked broadcasters to once again test their readiness for the switch by temporarily suspending analog programming on May 21. The FCC had previously tested DTV in select areas last fall when the transition was still scheduled for Feb. 17.

In this latest test, broadcasters who have not yet transitioned to digital-only will suspend analog service for five minutes at 7:30 a.m., 12:30 p.m. and 6:30 p.m. local time. Digital broadcast stations will not be required to participate in the tests.

And, delayed or not, there is still a healthy chunk of the population -- i.e. some two million households -- that are still unprepared for the DTV switch, though that number has shrunk considerably in recent months.

www.mediabiz.com


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## Nick

> _:...And, delayed or not, there is still a healthy chunk of the population -- i.e. some two million households -- that are still unprepared for the DTV switch, though that number has shrunk considerably in recent months."_


Just like the "poor will always be with us", the _clueless_, the _procrastinators_, and the _"It's not my fault, why didn't someone tell me"_ crowd will always be with us. If the FCC gave these people 10 more years, they still wouldn't be prepared.

The best way to do it is _just do it!_ When their CRTs turn to snow, they'll check the plug, hurry to pay their overdue electric bill ( and maybe their water bill, just in case), then they'll call in a TV service company to come figure out what the problem is.

The adjective _'clueless'_ just isn't strong enough!


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## Tom Robertson

The latest Nielsen report shows 3.5M homes still not ready: http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire...s-homes-still-unready-for-digital-transition/

The over 55 group still _leads_ the way being the most ready. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Nick

...and the (almost) over-70 crowd are on the bleeding-edge of tech. 

Oops! Bad choice of words! :geezer:

:lol:


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