# SixtoReport: D10/D12 Satellite Info in Post#1 - Both D10 & D12 in service



## Sixto

As of 6/16/2010, the corrective procedure ("amelioration") on D10 is complete.

As of 6/27/2010, D10 is now back at it's original location and transmitting all of the national HD that it had previously.

Satellite & National HD - News/Status: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​DirecTV-10 Orbital History - Currently back at original location


Code:


DirecTV-10 513
1 31862U 07032A   10178.43808065 -.00000107  00000-0  10000-3 0  5138
2 31862 000.0408 142.2858 0000022 128.8521 059.1703 01.00271423 10900

Name			DirecTV-10
NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		06-27-2010 10:30:50
Orbit # at Epoch	1090
Inclination		0.041
RA of A. Node		142.286
Eccentricity		0.0000022
Argument of Perigee	128.852
Revs per day		1.00271423
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 787 x 35 787 km
Element number / age	513 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.8167° W
Lat			0.0177° S
Alt (km)		35 786.150

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
513 06-27 10:30 35,787 x 35,787      0 102.8167°W  0.0177°S  0.041°
512 06-26 17:12 35,784 x 35,790      6 102.8200°W  0.0114°S  0.042°
511 06-25 10:09 35,780 x 35,794     14 102.8213°W  0.0138°S  0.038°
510 06-24 08:03 35,786 x 35,788      2 102.8261°W  0.0020°N  0.029°
509 06-21 05:48 35,778 x 35,804     26 102.9193°W  0.0053°N  0.046°
508 06-18 11:20 35,778 x 35,805     27 102.7485°W  0.0290°S  0.039°
507 06-16 05:41 35,785 x 35,790      4 102.6214°W  0.0103°N  0.033°
506 06-15 09:09 35,787 x 35,789      2 102.6071°W  0.0097°N  0.052°
505 06-14 07:50 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5920°W  0.0121°N  0.053°
504 06-13 16:43 35,784 x 35,789      5 102.5954°W  0.0266°S  0.052°
503 06-10 08:50 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.5921°W  0.0138°N  0.040°
502 06-07 07:57 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5845°W  0.0205°N  0.040°
501 06-06 04:52 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5788°W  0.0144°N  0.040°
500 06-05 03:37 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5753°W  0.0084°N  0.039°
499 06-03 09:59 35,784 x 35,788      4 102.5792°W  0.0193°N  0.039°
498 06-01 20:56 35,786 x 35,789      3 102.5926°W  0.0001°S  0.032°
497 05-31 03:03 35,784 x 35,790      6 102.5919°W  0.0088°S  0.008°
496 05-29 12:37 35,785 x 35,790      5 102.5901°W  0.0061°N  0.009°
495 05-28 09:46 35,785 x 35,790      5 102.5900°W  0.0016°S  0.010°
494 05-27 07:26 35,785 x 35,789      4 102.5832°W  0.0099°S  0.012°
493 05-24 09:14 35,783 x 35,787      4 102.5697°W  0.0002°S  0.025°
492 05-18 08:29 35,785 x 35,787      2 102.7430°W  0.0121°N  0.042°
491 05-14 16:13 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8013°W  0.0214°S  0.048°
490 05-13 13:13 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8021°W  0.0185°S  0.045°
489 05-13 03:47 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8089°W  0.0208°N  0.047°
489 05-11 13:21 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8031°W  0.0175°S  0.043°
488 05-11 04:25 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8068°W  0.0175°N  0.042°
487 05-10 18:43 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.8095°W  0.0148°S  0.047°
486 05-09 14:33 35,786 x 35,788      2 102.8052°W  0.0213°S  0.044°
485 05-08 02:44 35,786 x 35,788      2 102.8055°W  0.0202°N  0.041°

D10/D12 News (5/7/2010):"DirecTV 10 is currently operating at the 102.815° orbital location. As DirecTV has previously informed the Commission, that satellite suffered a post launch anomaly that has limited the capacity available in certain local markets. DirecTV believes that it can ameliorate this condition, but will need to discontinue commercial service from the satellite and relocate it slightly so that it is not within the cluster of it's other operational satellites. Accordingly, DirecTV intends to move DirecTV 10 to the 102.6° position to conduct the restorative procedure. During this migration, DirecTV 10 will continue to provide service to subscribers. However, over the course of this migration, DirecTV intends to transfer all traffic from DirecTV 10 to DirecTV 12, DirecTV's newest satellite which has just completed in-orbit testing and is expected to arrive at the nominal 103° location on or about May 11, 2010. At the conclusion of the STA period, the satellite will be in a position for the corrective procedure to be attempted."​D10 FCC Application - For the Drift (5/7/2010): http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158​
D10 FCC Grant - For the Drift (5/12/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=817066​
D10 FCC Application - For Testing after the Corrective Action (5/25/2010):"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to repeat an abbreviated set of in-orbit tests on the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6 WL location"

Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Details: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819358

More Details (5/26/2010): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819504

More Details (5/27/2010): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819530

More Details - AMC-15 Coordination (5/28/2010): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819723​D10 FCC Grant - For Testing after the Corrective Action (6/2/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=820319​


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## dmurphy

Sixto said:


> *Big news *(5/7/2010):"DirecTV 10 is currently operating at the 102.815° orbital location. As DirecTV has previously informed the Commission, that satellite suffered a post launch anomaly that has limited the capacity available in certain local markets. DirecTV believes that it can ameliorate this condition, but will need to discontinue commercial service from the satellite and relocate it slightly so that it is not within the cluster of it's other operational satellites. Accordingly, DirecTV intends to move DirecTV 10 to the 102.6° position to conduct the restorative procedure. During this migration, DirecTV 10 will continue to provide service to subscribers. However, over the course of this migration, DirecTV intends to transfer all traffic from DirecTV 10 to DirecTV 12, DirecTV's newest satellite which has just completed in-orbit testing and is expected to arive at the nominal 103° location on or about May 11, 2010. At the conclusion of the STA period, the satellite will be in a position for the corrective procedure to be attempted."
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158​
> GREAT news in the long term.
> 
> In summary:
> 
> DirecTV-12 is VERY healthy
> DirecTV-10 has had an issue with it's spot beams since September 2007
> DirecTV now believes that they may have a method to correct the spot beam issue with D10
> All D10 traffic will be moved to D12, and the corrective action will be attempted on D10
> If all goes well, we'll have both a healthy D12, and a newly repaired and healthy D10!


That, my friend, is AWESOME!!

Way to go DirecTV & Boeing.... I love it when a plan comes together!

Now here's to hoping the repair process works... if it doesn't, we're no worse off for trying... and if it does work, then we're in even better shape!


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## gulfwarvet

Very good news.


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## syphix

In the short term, it should be noted that as Sixto stated elsewhere, D12 has 2 more CONUS transponders than D10...so off loading D10's national HD's will still leave space on D12 for about 10 national HD channels to be launched prior to D10 moving back and lighting back up for service.


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## cheesedjdj

I wouldn't be surprised if they had a fix ready for a long time and that they were waiting for D12 to light up and take its off it's load. But anyways this is great news.


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## hyde76

I don't know if I'd call this great news or not but it sure is better to know than to not know.


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## Hdhead

Ironically we will all be again waiting for another drift to start with D10 before major new HD can come online. Get the D10 drift thread ready!


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## itzme

So if all goes exactly as planned with D10 and D12, what is the potential capacity for dtv?


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## Mike Bertelson

And We're Off. 

Mike


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## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> Ironically we will all be again waiting for another drift to start with D10 before major new HD can come online. Get the D10 drift thread ready!


The drift is going to be a few tenths of a degree - around a 100 miles. There won't be much time to watch.


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## trdrjeff

This one time, at amelioration camp...

sorry mods, couldn't help myself


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## Stuart Sweet

Oh, please...

maybe this thread could be a _little_ less chaotic than the DIRECTV12 thread?


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## Hdhead

My dad once tried to ameliorate my behavior. Hope things work out better for D10.:grin:


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## loudo

Sounds great. It should open the door to more HD channels, down the road.


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## loudo

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, please...
> 
> maybe this thread could be a _little_ less chaotic than the DIRECTV12 thread?


Wishful thinking. :grin:


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## matt

Looks like we have 2 signal meters to watch. One will fill up and the other will drop off.

What made D10 have problems?


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## Hdhead

matt1124 said:


> Looks like we have 2 signal meters to watch. One will fill up and the other will drop off.
> 
> What made D10 have problems?


It will be kinda fun to watch this process unfold. Cue up the signal meters.


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## freerein100

could this be the reason for extended testing of D12


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## Sixto

matt1124 said:


> What made D10 have problems?


Whatever the issue is, they feel like they now know how to fix it.

Speculation: and they may have even tested it on D12 during the past few months.


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## Thaedron

Huzzahhh!!!


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## raoul5788

itzme said:


> So if all goes exactly as planned with D10 and D12, what is the potential capacity for dtv?


D12 adds the capacity for 10 additional hd channels over D10, which ups the potential national hd channels to 210 or so. Fixing the spot beams on D10 could add more local hd channels, although I don't think anyone knows just how many since the number of problematic transponders was never revealed, IIRC.

Come to think of it, they knew about D12's extra transponders, so nix my comments about additional national hd channels!


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## Sixto

freerein100 said:


> could this be the reason for extended testing of D12


There will be people debating both sides, but it's quite possible.


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## slimoli

If D10 is fixed, the extra capacity can only be used for locals, is that right ?


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## syphix

raoul5788 said:


> D12 adds the capacity for 10 additional hd channels over D10, which ups the potential national hd channels to 210 or so. Fixing the spot beams on D10 could add more local hd channels, although I don't think anyone knows just how many since the number of problematic transponders was never revealed, IIRC.
> 
> Come to think of it, they knew about D12's extra transponders, so nix my comments about additional national hd channels!


BUT...off loading D10's HD's to D12 will not consume all of D12's national HD bandwidth. There still should be 10 channels available prior to D10 coming back online.


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## raoul5788

slimoli said:


> If D10 is fixed, the extra capacity can only be used for locals, is that right ?


Yup.


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## Brent04

I hope that whatever they plan on doing to D10 doesn’t damage the satellite further if what they try does not work.


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## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> If D10 is fixed, the extra capacity can only be used for locals, is that right ?


I would think so. At least since it was spot beams that were the issue then i would think that's what would be fixed.

Mike


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## Sixto

Brent04 said:


> I hope that whatever they plan on doing to D10 doesn't damage the satellite further if what they try does not work.


Speculation: maybe that's why D12 spent almost three months testing, just maybe.


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## Indiana627

Sixto said:


> Whatever the issue is, they feel like they now know how to fix it.
> 
> Speculation: and they may have even tested it on D12 during the past few months.





Sixto said:


> Speculation: maybe that's why D12 spent almost three months testing, just maybe.


Exactly what I was thinking. Great news. I hope the D10 fix works.


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## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> Speculation: maybe that's why D12 spent almost three months testing, just maybe.


It might explain the "wobbling". They could have been testing jockeying around in a small "box".

Mike


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## SteveHas

Outstanding news, thank you!
It is speculation but I am putting myself in the camp that says this was the reason for the D12 delay.


Isn't ameliorate something you do to your food?


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## thelucky1

SteveHas said:


> Outstanding news, thank you!
> It is speculation but I am putting myself in the camp that says this was the reason for the D12 delay.
> 
> +1


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## rorkin

Ameliorate is an interesting choice of words.. It does not really mean fix all the problems..
It is more in the order of lessening the severity of the problem.. Example

If they fixed 6 out of a hypothetical 10 bad transponders, that would be considered ameliorating the problem. We will probably never know the extent of the amelioration :hurah:
The term is a little vague

See: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ameliorate


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## harsh

slimoli said:


> If D10 is fixed, the extra capacity can only be used for locals, is that right ?


DIRECTV's stated plan was to move all D10 LIL to D12 and make D10 CONUS only. I'm not sure that together they would make such a great spotbeam team unless they're going to shift the downlink frequencies of D10 once it gets back.


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## thelucky1

Sixto said:


> Speculation: maybe that's why D12 spent almost three months testing, just maybe.


Yeah hard not to agree with Sixto!!!


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## rorkin

harsh said:


> DIRECTV's stated plan was to move all D10 LIL to D12 and make D10 CONUS only. I'm not sure that together they would make such a great spotbeam team unless they're going to shift the downlink frequencies of D10 once it gets back.


I still don't see the reason for moving it back once the problems are ameliorated


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## harsh

rorkin said:


> The term is a little vague


Add "ameliorate" to "up to" and "soon" in the vague vocabulary.


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## harsh

rorkin said:


> I still don't see the reason for moving it back once the problems are ameliorated


While the spotbeam capacities aren't necessarily additive, the CONUS capacities are.


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## evan_s

I think it is interesting that they are trying to repair the spots on D10 since they are saying D12's spots are a replacement for D10's.

I wonder what they are doing to fix the issue. Obviously they aren't drifting too far and it is still close enough that they are going to be transitioning channels while drifting it to that location.


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## bobnielsen

Since Directv hasn't announced exactly what they will be doing, we don't really have any definite knowledge. I suspect that they don't plan on doing anything drastic which would place D10 in risk for CONUS use, but they may do something like rearranging the spotbeam transponder/antenna matrix to shift things around a bit and make it more useful overall. This would probably involve software upgrades or procedures which may have been tested on D12, both prelaunch and during the 76° testing. Since it involves spotbeams, moving the satellite slightly could avoid interference issues with the signals from SW1 and D12. The final result may be that they can achieve more spots than they would from a single satellite, hence more LiLs may be possible.


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## mreposter

They only list one date in the announcement, saying D12 should be in position around May 11th. They don't say when D12 will take over for D10 - so does anyone have a guess how quickly that might happen?

Taking a bit of a leap, if D12 takes over for D10 in the next week, wouldn't also make sense that at the same time they turn on some of the new HD channels using the extra capacity that D12 has over D10?


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## Mark Walters

Does this mean we will not see the 30+ new HD channels until this matter is resolved? Will the D10 fix happen immediately when D12 is operational? Any ideas on the time frame -- weeks, months?


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## HIGHWAY

directv must be sure they can fix d10. more hd soon.


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## JoeTheDragon

syphix said:


> In the short term, it should be noted that as Sixto stated elsewhere, D12 has 2 more CONUS transponders than D10...so off loading D10's national HD's will still leave space on D12 for about 10 national HD channels to be launched prior to D10 moving back and lighting back up for service.


How much Local space does D12 add. Can we see more Local HD when D12 is in place?


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## Doug Brott

Mark Walters said:


> Does this mean we will not see the 30+ new HD channels until this matter is resolved? Will the D10 fix happen immediately when D12 is operational? Any ideas on the time frame -- weeks, months?


The PDF in the first post says that the "STA become effective May 14 and remain in place for a period of approximately 30 days."


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## wmb

harsh said:


> While the spotbeam capacities aren't necessarily additive, the CONUS capacities are.


I thought spot beams, by definition were additive in that they allowed the same frequncies to be used in different parts of the country independently. Frequncy x can be used on every non-overlapping spotbeam. So, if D10 has 10 spots that can use frequnecy x, D12 can add another 10 with separate footprints.


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## mikemaxj

I was hoping that when D12 went live, I could get my locals in HD off the new SAT here in Redding, CA. Now it looks like I will probobly have to wait until D10 is fixed. Bummer.

Mike


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## Mark Walters

Doug Brott said:


> The PDF in the first post says that the "STA become effective May 14 and remain in place for a period of approximately 30 days."


Thanks


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## Sandy

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, please...
> 
> maybe this thread could be a _little_ less chaotic than the DIRECTV12 thread?


I love that you're so optimistic.


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## HoTat2

bobnielsen said:


> Since Directv hasn't announced exactly what they will be doing, we don't really have any definite knowledge. I suspect that they don't plan on doing anything drastic which would place D10 in risk for CONUS use, but they may do something like rearranging the spotbeam transponder/antenna matrix to shift things around a bit and make it more useful overall. This would probably involve software upgrades or procedures which may have been tested on D12, both prelaunch and during the 76° testing. Since it involves spotbeams, moving the satellite slightly could avoid interference issues with the signals from SW1 and D12. *The final result may be that they can achieve more spots than they would from a single satellite, hence more LiLs may be possible.*


Something like this must be what they intend since I really don't see the potential gain in fixing D10's spotbeam issue(s) if D12's spots have the same footprint pattern as D10 across the nation.

But the problem is from everything I've read on D10, 11, and 12's spotbeam capabilities is that they are not steerable or can be otherwise repositioned. Therefore they should duplicate one another.

So ... :whatdidid


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## BudShark

This certainly is great news. No matter how you slice it, D10 + D12 are going to give DirecTV MORE than they we thought a week ago. Excellent. And they certainly don't "try" things with critical satellites. So clearly, there was some testing with D12, and a supreme confidence that this can only help and not hurt D10 in any way.


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## BudShark

HoTat2 said:


> Something like this must be what they intend since I really don't see the potential gain in fixing D10's spotbeam issue(s) if D12's spots have the same footprint pattern as D10 across the nation.
> 
> But the problem is from everything I've read on D10, 11, and 12's spotbeam capabilities is that they are not steerable or can be otherwise repositioned. Therefore they should duplicate one another.
> 
> So ... :whatdidid


I'm WAY out of my league, but even under the assumption that you can't cover any additional territory, recovering some of D10s original capability would imply you can add more channels/subchannels, or extend the useful life, or... they wouldn't do it if, as harsh implies, there was nothing to gain. They have a plan, and the plan is for D10 to give more than its giving today... how that looks to the customer, we can only speculate for now. But there is NO QUESTION, they intend to get more from D10.


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## jefbal99

Holy crap, this is awesome that they may have a fix for the D10 spot issue. Hopefully this will allow a great number of spots (maybe even to get Lansing, MI some HD LiL love).

Sixto, your TP maps are gonna be all over the place for a few weeks while everything is shuffled back and forth. I would imagine when they are done, the load of CONUS HDs will be balanced between D10 and D12 from the 103W slot so that neither is near capacity.


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## Satelliteracer

Yes, it is really good news and the engineers have been excited about the results.

So, what does this all mean for HD launches. Well, a few delays but we're still starting in May.

Soon now becomes very soon. Hang tight folks, just a little longer for the first wave.


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## raoul5788

harsh said:


> DIRECTV's stated plan was to move all D10 LIL to D12 and make D10 CONUS only. I'm not sure that together they would make such a great spotbeam team unless they're going to shift the downlink frequencies of D10 once it gets back.


Where is this stated plan?


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## Satelliteracer

syphix said:


> In the short term, it should be noted that as Sixto stated elsewhere, D12 has 2 more CONUS transponders than D10...so off loading D10's national HD's will still leave space on D12 for about 10 national HD channels to be launched prior to D10 moving back and lighting back up for service.


That is true, but don't expect all 10 in May....probably more like 5 to start with, but we'll see.


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## LameLefty

Satelliteracer - thanks as always for your informative tidbits. We certainly do appreciate them.


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## Hdhead

Satelliteracer said:


> That is true, but don't expect all 10 in May....probably more like 5 to start with, but we'll see.


If it is only 5 I hope you guys light up the most wanted 5. otherwise a lot of unhappy people will be here.


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## Athlon646464

Hdhead said:


> If it is only 5 I hope you guys light up the most wanted 5. otherwise a lot of unhappy people will be here.


Who would be unhappy knowing the reason behaind the temporary juggling act by D*?

We're going to have boo coo capacity in about 40 days!!!


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## Hdhead

Athlon646464 said:


> Who would be unhappy knowing the reason behaind the temporary juggling act by D*?
> 
> We're going to have boo coo capacity in about 40 days!!!


Just sayin if they were put on 5 premiums or 5 sports RSN first, people will not be happy. Give some goodies to tied us over.


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## georule

Does it strike anyone else as odd that they'd leave it broadcasting to customers while on the move and *then* offload it, rather than offload it and then move it? Something to do with how our home boxes would like that kind of thing, perhaps? Can the dish on my roof "see" 102.6? Or just before it crosses over some window threshhold they pull the great switcheroonie and hope no one at home does a Matrix-like "dejavu" with the black cat walking by?

My grandfather the civil engineer would have used a great old 1980s phrase to describe part of what likely happened at 76 degrees testing. He'd have said "It is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. . . " that they must have been doing some testing on the D10 fix.

This is almost certainly a software fix of some kind, right? They don't have little sleeping robots up there that will wake up, pull out their cutting torches and spare ASICs and go to work at a command from the ground? Umm, right?

So likely they tested D12 at 76 with two sets of software --the original D10 package and a "new" software package aimed at fixing the problems with D10, and checked the results. Well, and maybe a third package --"D12 final", in case the D12 hardware is a bit tweaked in the interim since the D10 hardware.


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## TheRatPatrol

This wait is killing me!


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## Athlon646464

I'm a Boston sports nut.

Tonight, all at the same time, we have the Bruins playing a playoff game.

We have the Celtics playing a playoff game.

The Red Sox are playing the Yankees at Fenway.

*And I sit here watching these two threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* :eek2:


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## georule

Athlon646464 said:


> I'm a Boston sports nut.
> 
> Tonight, all at the same time, we have the Bruins playing a playoff game.
> 
> We have the Celtics playing a playoff game.
> 
> The Red Sox are playing the Yankees at Fenway.
> 
> *And I sit here watching these two threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* :eek2:


Go Bruins! (Old school Pens fan here; deep is my Flyers hatred).


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## Jason Whiddon

Hdhead said:


> If it is only 5 I hope you guys light up the most wanted 5. otherwise a lot of unhappy people will be here.


Theyll light up the premiums, ya know thats coming. Gotta get those money channels up.


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## am7crew

wow so the new 30 channels is turning into 10 or am I misreading/understanding this.


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## Jason Whiddon

am7crew said:


> wow so the new 30 channels is turning into 10 or am I misreading/understanding this.


Only temporary, it's just an annoying delay.


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## Athlon646464

am7crew said:


> wow so the new 30 channels is turning into 10 or am I misreading/understanding this.


They are turning into more than 30....

BTW, D* said 30 new *beginning* in May (not all 30), and that is what will happen. In the end there will be more than that after D10 is repaired. It will likely mean more HD for some local channels too!


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## Hdhead

am7crew said:


> wow so the new 30 channels is turning into 10 or am I misreading/understanding this.


More like 5 for May. More down the road. SOON


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## Sixto

It's going to be really cool to see D12 max'ed out so soon.

No need to wait and speculate all year on how much D12 will eventually be able to do nationally, we'll know soon.

And then we can add that to what we already know about D10.


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## thelucky1

Satelliteracer said:


> Yes, it is really good news and the engineers have been excited about the results.
> 
> So, what does this all mean for HD launches. Well, a few delays but we're still starting in May.
> 
> Soon now becomes very soon. Hang tight folks, just a little longer for the first wave.


YES exciting news indeed! Thanks for the info satelliteracer!


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## Sixto

"results"


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## Athlon646464

'for the first wave'?


----------



## GregLee

Sixto said:


> It's going to be really cool to see D12 max'ed out so soon.


I'm having some difficulty letting myself be carried along on this wave of euphoria. We were going to get 30 HD channels in May, but now it's down to 5 or so, and this is really cool?


----------



## Sixto

GregLee said:


> I'm having some difficulty letting myself be carried along on this wave of euphoria. We were going to get 30 HD channels in May, but now it's down to 5 or so, and this is really cool?


Options:30 in May, and never fix D10.

5 in May, fix D10 forever, 25 a little later.​
Easy choice.

And I'm just curious to see all the movement, and see D12 max'ed out.


----------



## inkahauts

raoul5788 said:


> D12 adds the capacity for 10 additional hd channels over D10, which ups the potential national hd channels to 210 or so. Fixing the spot beams on D10 could add more local hd channels, although I don't think anyone knows just how many since the number of problematic transponders was never revealed, IIRC.
> 
> Come to think of it, they knew about D12's extra transponders, so nix my comments about additional national hd channels!





slimoli said:


> If D10 is fixed, the extra capacity can only be used for locals, is that right ?


Actually, it is, I believe, possible that fixing the D10 spots could increase the capacity of the national channels if there is some creative arrangement of spots and frequencies going on...

I believe right now they are using 6 different transponder frequencies for D10 and D11, and I am thinking that if they can get D10 fixed, and d12 working with it correctly, they might be able to cut down the number of transponder frequencies to say 5 or even 4 depending on how they arrange things. And if that is possible, then we will see another transponder or two possibly lit up for national programing that we haven't been expecting.

Also, who's to say they don't need these additional spotbeams working to follow through with adding a lot more locals to existing markets, say all the locals that are in hd? In a few years, if they offer one hd channel in a market, they need to be able to offer ALL hd channels in a market, so that may also be why getting D10 spots fixed is critical...

And also, don't forget, we have no idea how they are planning on making a huge increase in VOD programing available to customers, and maybe the spots have something to do with that as well in some way.. in conjunction with the spaceways, and the other d10 and d11.... I know no one here seems to care about that, but I am curious about it myself....


----------



## thelucky1

Sorry if I missed the answer somewhere.

Sixto how many spotbeams are currently not working on D10?


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> DIRECTV's stated plan was to move all D10 LIL to D12 and make D10 CONUS only. I'm not sure that together they would make such a great spotbeam team unless they're going to shift the downlink frequencies of D10 once it gets back.





HoTat2 said:


> Something like this must be what they intend since I really don't see the potential gain in fixing D10's spotbeam issue(s) if D12's spots have the same footprint pattern as D10 across the nation.
> 
> But the problem is from everything I've read on D10, 11, and 12's spotbeam capabilities is that they are not steerable or can be otherwise repositioned. Therefore they should duplicate one another.
> 
> So ... :whatdidid


They only have so many spotbeams available to them right now, doubling the amount could allow them to use less transponder frequencies, or at the very least, allow them to DOUBLE their local channel capacity in every area that has spotbeams now.. That means more than just the prime 5 or 10 hd channels now, and also means that maybe some sub channels may be lit up...

There are HUGE implications to getting this fixed.


----------



## inkahauts

rorkin said:


> I still don't see the reason for moving it back once the problems are ameliorated


The tighter they are to each other, the easier it is for people to get higher signals form all the birds at the same time, based on the angles of the dishes, from more places in the us...


----------



## Sixto

thelucky1 said:


> Sorry if I missed the answer somewhere.
> 
> Sixto how many spotbeams are currently not working on D10?


Have never done the LiL analysis, but D10 has about 60 less HD LiL then D11.

I've just focused on the national with gct/doctor j posting the LiL stuff.


----------



## inkahauts

wmb said:


> I thought spot beams, by definition were additive in that they allowed the same frequncies to be used in different parts of the country independently. Frequncy x can be used on every non-overlapping spotbeam. So, if D10 has 10 spots that can use frequnecy x, D12 can add another 10 with separate footprints.


Yep.. which in essence doubles the capacity over night, assuming they can pick and choose what frequencies are used on which spot beams, which I don't see why they can't...


----------



## Davenlr

Couldnt they just move Spaceway 1 or 2 over to 101, and give out new LNBs with KA/KU capability at 101 for those new small towns they add to LIL service for?


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> Speculation: maybe that's why D12 spent almost three months testing, just maybe.





rorkin said:


> Ameliorate is an interesting choice of words.. It does not really mean fix all the problems..
> It is more in the order of lessening the severity of the problem.. Example
> 
> If they fixed 6 out of a hypothetical 10 bad transponders, that would be considered ameliorating the problem. We will probably never know the extent of the amelioration :hurah:
> The term is a little vague
> 
> See: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ameliorate


I agree, I think thats what was happening as well, a test for the fix...

And we all know they and some backup spot beams to use on these sats, so if say they had 10 backups, and 15 spots where bad, if they can fix 8, that gives them back all capacity, and still have a couple backups again as well... I'd like to know how many transponders on every sat they have have actually died over the years and they have had to switch to a backup transponder, spot or conus... (for sats that where in service at the time of needing to use a backup transponder)


----------



## LameLefty

Davenlr said:


> Couldnt they just move Spaceway 1 or 2 over to 101, and give out new LNBs with KA/KU capability at 101 for those new small towns they add to LIL service for?


They'd need Ka licenses for 101, which they don't have.


----------



## Sixto

inkahauts said:


> I agree, I think thats what was happening as well, a test for the fix...


post 54. last 8 words of line 1.


----------



## Canis Lupus

Meanwhile, back in Boise ID - I'm enjoying my playoff hockey and all other things DirecTV. And I have full confidence in all things going forward. Fanboy stamp.

EDIT: And thanks to Sixto and LameLefty for balanced and informative updates.


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> post 54. last 8 words of line 1.


Ha! SO we are all right.. I started that post before i read that line...  Wonder if that makes me psychic?


----------



## thelucky1

Sixto said:


> Have never done the LiL analysis, but D10 has about 60 less HD LiL then D11.
> 
> I've just focused on the national with gct/doctor j posting the LiL stuff.


Can you help doctor j? How many spotbeams are currently not working on D10?


----------



## gbubar

Hdhead said:


> My dad once tried to ameliorate my behavior. Hope things work out better for D10.:grin:


HAHAHA...you just have to love the humor on this site:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Groundhog45

"Oh boy, this is great."


----------



## Neural762

Could it be that if D10's spot beams are fixed, they'll move the LiLs from S1 to D10 and reconfigure S1 to do nationals, thus giving even more national capacity? Isn't it the one with the super flexible antenna array that can do lots of different combinations of national and spot beams? Even if not, it would be really cool to get all that capacity to start carrying all the subchannels that are available OTA.


----------



## jdspencer

I think that DirecTV is 99% sure that the fixes for D10 will work. 
Otherwise, we would have seen an order by DirecTV for D13 to be built.


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> They'd need Ka licenses for 101, which they don't have.


Actually they do have the Ka License for 101. They use it for backhauling signals with some 250mhz wide spot tps on d8 and d9.

Altho to answer the original question there really is no reason to move Spaceway 1 or 2 from where they currently are. They can already provide spots for locals where they are at.


----------



## evan_s

inkahauts said:


> Actually, it is, I believe, possible that fixing the D10 spots could increase the capacity of the national channels if there is some creative arrangement of spots and frequencies going on...
> 
> I believe right now they are using 6 different transponder frequencies for D10 and D11, and I am thinking that if they can get D10 fixed, and d12 working with it correctly, they might be able to cut down the number of transponder frequencies to say 5 or even 4 depending on how they arrange things. And if that is possible, then we will see another transponder or two possibly lit up for national programing that we haven't been expecting.
> 
> Also, who's to say they don't need these additional spotbeams working to follow through with adding a lot more locals to existing markets, say all the locals that are in hd? In a few years, if they offer one hd channel in a market, they need to be able to offer ALL hd channels in a market, so that may also be why getting D10 spots fixed is critical...
> 
> And also, don't forget, we have no idea how they are planning on making a huge increase in VOD programing available to customers, and maybe the spots have something to do with that as well in some way.. in conjunction with the spaceways, and the other d10 and d11.... I know no one here seems to care about that, but I am curious about it myself....


Actually it's 10 tps, at least thats how many they have reserved for the spots. 24 Tps in the Ka band and they have 14 conus and 10 for spots on D10. I wouldn't be surprised to see the kick D10 back up to 16 conus tps since it won't have nearly as many if any spots on it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

D12 is solid and on target for arrival at 102.765.

D10 now might have the chance to be "corrected" and provide its original level of services.

Its all good news.


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> Actually they do have the Ka License for 101. They use it for backhauling signals with some 250mhz wide spot tps on d8 and d9.
> 
> Altho to answer the original question there really is no reason to move Spaceway 1 or 2 from where they currently are. They can already provide spots for locals where they are at.


They don't have a license for direct-to-home service, however. The FCC treats those as separate uses and requires separate authorizations and licenses.


----------



## Sixto

Have added the location info for D10 to post#1. Will try to somewhat keep up-to-date, as we track movement.


----------



## kevinwmsn

This is great news for those who don't have HD LiLs. Even if they can't fix all the spots, this could allow D* to add more markets to get over that 95%. Maybe do a reconfig for the ones that can't fix and use more conus tps to add more HD. We waited this long, whats another month. It's going to be a couple of years before they build much less launch D14. I wouldn't be suprised if there was antipication thread for it.:lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Neural762 said:


> Could it be that if D10's spot beams are fixed, they'll move the LiLs from S1 to D10 and reconfigure S1 to do nationals, thus giving even more national capacity? Isn't it the one with the super flexible antenna array that can do lots of different combinations of national and spot beams? Even if not, it would be really cool to get all that capacity to start carrying all the subchannels that are available OTA.


Nice idea, alas the Spaceways don't have electrical power to go CONUS or even something that resembles CONUS.

So with your nice idea... what else could they potentially use S1/S2 for? 

(Though we might need to discuss that in another thread...)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## georule

GregLee said:


> I'm having some difficulty letting myself be carried along on this wave of euphoria. We were going to get 30 HD channels in May, but now it's down to 5 or so, and this is really cool?


You were never going to get 30 in May. Go back and read the PR. ". . .will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months. . .". Then go google some of those channels and realize some of them aren't even slated to *start* broadcasting in HD in May (for example, Gol TV HD is supposed to start broadcasting 8/1). So "30 in May" was never promised, and never even possible. That's a study in seeing what you want to see rather than what's on the page.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6770018


----------



## RD in Fla

hdtvfan0001 said:


> D12 is solid and on target for arrival at 102.765.
> 
> D10 now might have the chance to be "corrected" and provide its original level of services.
> 
> Its all good news.


I never thought that when I watched the launch of D12 in December of 2009 that it would only bring 5 new HD channels by June 1st of 2010. Oh well, life goes on and I'll continue to enjoy reading the two threads.


----------



## Tom Robertson

georule said:


> You were never going to get 30 in May. Go back and read the PR. ". . .will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months. . .". Then go google some of those channels and realize several of them aren't even slated to *start* broadcasting in HD in May (for example, Gol TV HD is supposed to start broadcasting 8/1). So "30 in May" was never promised, and never even possible. That's a study in seeing what you want to see rather than what's on the page.


While not promised, you might be wrong about your first point...


----------



## Jason Whiddon

georule said:


> You were never going to get 30 in May. Go back and read the PR. ". . .will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months. . .". Then go google some of those channels and realize several of them aren't even slated to *start* broadcasting in HD in May (for example, Gol TV HD is supposed to start broadcasting 8/1). So "30 in May" was never promised, and never even possible. That's a study in seeing what you want to see rather than what's on the page.
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6770018


Maybe he saw this before the HD promise gremlins took it.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

This may be something that has already been adressed. Is D10 going to move back to its original location? Or is this procedure to off load to D12 since it was intened to replace the spots on D10 and then since D10 is in a new location they can re-aim the good spots at new local markets? Just curious if this is a good speculation.


----------



## georule

elwaylite said:


> Maybe he saw this before the HD promise gremlins took it.


Never trust the headline writers! They are subject to the tyranny of inches. Was the article I linked under that headline? Or did they change that too?


----------



## Piratefan98

elwaylite said:


> Maybe he saw this before the HD promise gremlins took it.


Stop making sense !!! :lol:

LOL @ "promise gremlins"


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Ah, BUT, you said he was seeing what he wanted, when he might have been seeing what D* wanted him to see!



georule said:


> Never trust the headline writers! They are subject to the tyranny of inches.


----------



## tonyd79

elwaylite said:


> Maybe he saw this before the HD promise gremlins took it.


Hmmm. An internet headline is evidence. Yup. This in a world where internet people don't know the difference between "lose" and "loose" nevermind "their", "there" and "they're." And in a world where proofreaders wind up with headlines like Jay Leno has made a career out of on Monday nights.

Despite specific wording, over and over again they said "beginning in May" in all the detailed text. Even when you clicked on that link that said "in May."

Anyway, BFD. They are fixing a long time problem and this is exciting.


----------



## cartrivision

Hdhead said:


> If it is only 5 I hope you guys light up the most wanted 5. otherwise a lot of unhappy people will be here.


Speak for yourself. I and a lot of other people I know would be thrilled to see the first 5 be ALL premiums. That category has been has been sorely lagging in "HD additions", where for instance one of the most expensive packages (on a per channel basis) like HBO currently only has two HD channels. I say bring on the HD premiums... the "basic cable" HD channels can wait.

In reality, it will probably be 2 or 3 of each (premium and basic), but it wouldn't be completely out of line to start with 5 premiums.


----------



## doctor j

thelucky1 said:


> Can you help doctor j? How many spotbeams are currently not working on D10?


Off the cuff, i don't have an answer for that.
Very complex analysis required of TPN's in use and spotbeams setup originally.

spears61 developed a program to extrapolate MS ACCESS data from FCC gain curves on google maps and gct published elegant D-12 spotbeam maps for each of the 50 + spotbeams available.
Spotbeam tracking is TRICKY. Original design takes in multiple possible broadcast sites (ie some for 103/ others for 99 as contigency plans). Not all are available at one time and no one can tell exactly which ones are in use because of layers of overlap.

See maps here:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=171756

As i recall, the FCC data base would not accept the large ACCESS files to define all of the spotbeams until recently ie with D-12 filings. D-10/D-11/SW-1/SW-2 maps are all just "representative examples". Do not have complete list of maps. May be able to extract total # of spotbeams but just a guess as to what was designed for alternate broadcast sites vs backups vs "BROKE".

May be able to get some ideas as D-10 load CONUS and LIL transferred to D-12.

I will track this but doubt i can reverse engineer the "ideal" mix vs what D-10 was forced to use.

LIL's also complex as loads constantly shifting from sat to sat.

IE: about 9 to 12 months ago several hundred LIL's were shifted OFF SW-1. As of today only 2 (TWO)LIL channels are assigned by data analysis programing to SW-1. Some intermittent speculation as to why ( use in Latin America (spots are available for that) ; VOD : who knows what else). Data analysis programs may be in error. Others here , much more savey than I have designed and shared them. Originally designed for MPEG 2 KU data streams . MPEG 4 and KA data has changed the associations. Thus some fudge factors added. Example is Telefutura in the KA CONUS stream. Analysis assigns it to TPN 23 (a spot beam)
Probably is 24 or 28 (or something- i posted on this recently). Still in analysis!!

Sorry about rambling. I understand a fraction of this. I do the grunt work of collecting data from Twinham 1020a cards and TSReader software. 5 computers monitor various aspects 24/7. Others take the data and make sense of it. I'm interested purely in # of LIL markets and TEST channels in limbo.

No signs yet but SOON i expect the 850 HD(some MPEG4 SD) LIL channels to explode to the 1500 promised. Many are and have been in"test" mode for months if not years!!

Doctor j


----------



## Jason Whiddon

It's funny, how a company puts out an inaccurate statement, that a guy sees and holds them too, and everyone else is so fast to apologize.

Maybe they should hire more folks that know the difference between lose and loose. Nah, they have no need to because of all of the people that apologize for them. It's easy for a forum member to say they know what Direct "meant", since we always have Satelliteracer clearing it up. Not so much for the guy that does not live here.


----------



## tonyd79

elwaylite said:


> It's funny, how a company puts out an inaccurate statement, that a guy sees and holds them too, and everyone else is so fast to apologize.
> 
> Maybe they should hire more folks that know the difference between lose and loose. Nah, they have no need to because of all of the people that apologize for them. It's easy for a forum member to say they know what Direct "meant", since we always have Satelliteracer clearing it up. Not so much for the guy that does not live here.


Gee. Most adults I know discount advertising claims. The ones here tend to be pickier about words in releases, ads and web postings than the average people I know.


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> Options:30 in May, and never fix D10.
> 
> 5 in May, fix D10 forever, 25 a little later.​
> Easy choice.
> 
> And I'm just curious to see all the movement, and see D12 max'ed out.


I'm more curious to know why they have to move it in order to try to fix it, but we may never know the answer to that. The movement suggests that they might be doing something "physical" with it to fix it, and they want to be a little farther away from the other satellites just in case something doesn't go exactly as planned.


----------



## Satelliteracer

georule said:


> You were never going to get 30 in May. Go back and read the PR. ". . .will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months. . .". Then go google some of those channels and realize some of them aren't even slated to *start* broadcasting in HD in May (for example, Gol TV HD is supposed to start broadcasting 8/1). So "30 in May" was never promised, and never even possible. That's a study in seeing what you want to see rather than what's on the page.
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6770018


With all due respect, I would disagree with that statement. Yes, the statement said "start", but that is to take into account these type of last minute changes. I believe you would have seen those 30 or very close to it if not for this recent change involving D10.


----------



## thelucky1

Doctor j thank you for your info and analysis in post #110. I look forward to your future posts regarding D10 and LILs.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Satelliteracer said:


> just a little longer for the first wave.


Whens the 2nd wave coming? 



RD in Fla said:


> life goes on and I'll continue to enjoy reading the two threads.


Maybe once D12 is parked we could combine the D10/D12 threads into one thread, to make for easier reading.


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> Maybe once D12 is parked we could combine the D10/D12 threads into one thread, to make for easier reading.


Once D12 is parked and "live", it will be just the D10 thread, the HD thread, and the transponder thread.


----------



## Sixto

Satelliteracer said:


> Yes, it is really good news and the engineers have been excited about the results.
> 
> So, what does this all mean for HD launches. Well, a few delays but we're still starting in May.
> 
> Soon now becomes very soon. Hang tight folks, just a little longer for the first wave.





Satelliteracer said:


> With all due respect, I would disagree with that statement. Yes, the statement said "start", but that is to take into account these type of last minute changes. I believe you would have seen those 30 or very close to it if not for this recent change involving D10.


Thanks!


----------



## am7crew

georule said:


> You were never going to get 30 in May. Go back and read the PR. ". . .will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months. . .". Then go google some of those channels and realize some of them aren't even slated to *start* broadcasting in HD in May (for example, Gol TV HD is supposed to start broadcasting 8/1). So "30 in May" was never promised, and never even possible. That's a study in seeing what you want to see rather than what's on the page.
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6770018


The headline sis misleading but I see what everyone is saying about having more in the long run IF D10 is fixable, question is what happens IF D10 isnt fixable, what then?


----------



## Rob

am7crew said:


> The headline sis misleading but I see what everyone is saying about having more in the long run IF D10 is fixable, question is what happens IF D10 isnt fixable, what then?


More Drama Queens?


----------



## am7crew

Rob said:


> More Drama Queens?


yeah drama queens = the non sheep. We cant all be 'yes men'.


----------



## LameLefty

am7crew said:


> yeah drama queens = the non sheep. We cant all be 'yes men'.


So, Mr. Non-sheep/No Man/drama queen - what do YOU know about satellite engineering to give you doubts sufficient to anticipate any problems? Or are you just trying to stir up FUD for some personal reason?


----------



## Sixto

am7crew said:


> The headline sis misleading but I see what everyone is saying about having more in the long run IF D10 is fixable, question is what happens IF D10 isnt fixable, what then?





am7crew said:


> yeah drama queens = the non sheep. We cant all be 'yes men'.


If fixed, great.

If not fixed, no worse.

Reason for confidence: "it is really good news and the engineers have been excited about the results".


----------



## BigRedFan

Sixto said:


> It's going to be really cool to see D12 max'ed out so soon.
> 
> No need to wait and speculate all year on how much D12 will eventually be able to do nationally, we'll know soon.
> 
> And then we can add that to what we already know about D10.


Yes !!! Sweet surprise tonight !.... The best news from the D10 development is final confirmation that D12's 16 national HD transponders are 100% healthy and ready to take us to over 200 HD channels (eventually)..... The long testing at 76 had made me think about capacity issues, but now, thankfully, it's one less thing to worry about... Awesome !

Will also be exciting to watch local HD's go to 1500 (potentially) with the repairs at D10 successfully completed.... Christmas in June !!!


----------



## ShawnL25

So we could see after the change 60+ additional lil and 90 conus HD that we don't have today...


----------



## inkahauts

Tom Robertson said:


> Nice idea, alas the Spaceways don't have electrical power to go CONUS or even something that resembles CONUS.
> 
> So with your nice idea... what else could they potentially use S1/S2 for?
> 
> (Though we might need to discuss that in another thread...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I still say to fill in the missing holes in some bizarre LIL areas, and DOD hi speed downloading...


----------



## inkahauts

evan_s said:


> Actually it's 10 tps, at least thats how many they have reserved for the spots. 24 Tps in the Ka band and they have 14 conus and 10 for spots on D10. I wouldn't be surprised to see the kick D10 back up to 16 conus tps since it won't have nearly as many if any spots on it.


You know, I don't remember there being 10 transponder numbers being held back for D10 or D11, but your probably right, cause I do now remember there being at least 6 for the spaceways... I can never tell anymore that they fixed the systems so the signal strength meters only show transponders that will hit your own market, and got rid of all the zero transponders....

Either way you look at it, doubling the number of transponders could either double the capacity for LIL's, or cut the number of transponders spaces for different frequencies in half, or some combination of the 2....

Does anyone know the maximum number of transponders that are turned on and lit up for any one market? I know in LA its 3 right now, but I am not sure if some markets have more?


----------



## inkahauts

ShawnL25 said:


> So we could see after the change 60+ additional lil and 90 conus HD that we don't have today...


I'm not so sure that this development would allow them to add that many more markets, but it would likely allow them to almost double the number of LIL channels as a whole they are broadcasting at this time...

And more like 80 additional channels at this time I believe.. 16 x 5 = 80


----------



## Tom Servo

jefbal99 said:


> Sixto, your TP maps are gonna be all over the place for a few weeks while everything is shuffled back and forth. I would imagine when they are done, the load of CONUS HDs will be balanced between D10 and D12 from the 103W slot so that neither is near capacity.


I'm curious as to the benefits of 'balancing' the channel load over two satellites versus loading one up and using another for extra capacity. Is it a power issue?

My original belief was that they'd load up D12 with D10's channels, try to fix D10, then put all the new channels on D10 and leave D12 with the older stuff.


----------



## SWORDFISH

Athlon646464 said:


> I'm a Boston sports nut.
> 
> Tonight, all at the same time, we have the Bruins playing a playoff game.
> Flyers 5 - Bruins 4
> 
> We have the Celtics playing a playoff game.
> Cavaliers 124 - Celtics 95
> 
> The Red Sox are playing the Yankees at Fenway.
> Yankees 10 - Red Sox 3
> 
> *And I sit here watching these two threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* :eek2:


Rough night.

SF


----------



## brett_the_bomb

This may be something that has already been adressed. Is D10 going to move back to its original location or stay at the new one? Or is this procedure to off load to D12 since it was intened to replace the spots on D10 and then since D10 is in a new location they can re-aim the sats good spots at new local markets? Just curious if this is a good speculation.


----------



## sbl

Regarding the "headline" - that was not from DirecTV but some other site. DirecTV can't control what others say.

D12 will operate out of 103 along with D10 and the other "birds" in that slot.


----------



## JLucPicard

brett_the_bomb said:


> This may be something that has already been adressed. Is D10 going to move back to its original location or stay at the new one? Or is this procedure to off load to D12 since it was intened to replace the spots on D10 and then since D10 is in a new location they can re-aim the sats good spots at new local markets? Just curious if this is a good speculation.


It was my understanding, though I could be wrong, that once repairs are made to D10 that it would move back to it's original operational spot and resume beaming all it had been previously, plus whatever new locals it could handle with the repair made. D12 would then be used for whatever purpose it was originally intended for at it's 103º location.


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> Options:30 in May, and never fix D10.
> 
> 5 in May, fix D10 forever, 25 a little later.​
> Easy choice.
> 
> And I'm just curious to see all the movement, and see D12 max'ed out.


Honestly, I'm looking forward to seeing all this stuff play out. There's a really interesting dance that is happening above our heads and we will all be able to see it playing out as it happens. A far more compelling storyline than most of the sludge that winds up on the tube as 'intentional' entertainment.


----------



## Sixto

JLucPicard said:


> It was my understanding, though I could be wrong, that once repairs are made to D10 that it would move back to it's original operational spot and resume beaming all it had been previously, plus whatever new locals it could handle with the repair made. D12 would then be used for whatever purpose it was originally intended for at it's 103º location.


They may just decide to leave D12 as-is and put the new channels on D10, unless there's some reason to return D10 to it's original configuration.


----------



## Athlon646464

SWORDFISH said:


> Rough night.SF


(Referring to my Boston sports night :nono

At least I had some extremely positive stuff to read here while we were getting pummeled!


----------



## LameLefty

brett_the_bomb said:


> This may be something that has already been adressed. Is D10 going to move back to its original location or stay at the new one?


It will almost certainly move back closer to the nominal 103 slot, probably right back to 102.815 where it is now. First, the STA is for 30 days; it's not a request for a permanent change. Second, I believe 102.6 is further away from the nominal 103 slot than allowed for full-time operations.


----------



## HerntDawg

I am happy, leaving those multi-dish peeps in the dust. 

Getting more HD as scheduled is great.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> They may just decide to leave D12 as-is and put the new channels on D10, unless there's some reason to return D10 to it's original configuration.


Which would be virtually transparent and *NOM EE NAL *to anyone's viewing experience. 

It's actually pretty cool that they have this option to at least attempt a D10 "fully operational return".


----------



## Sixto

Note: This STA is just for the move of D10.

There will be another STA for "the procedure".


----------



## georule

Satelliteracer said:


> With all due respect, I would disagree with that statement. Yes, the statement said "start", but that is to take into account these type of last minute changes. I believe you would have seen those 30 or very close to it if not for this recent change involving D10.


By my count, at least three of those channels of the 22 called out specifically on the list (presumably the others are the "DirecTV Cinema" additions referred to --and do we care THAT much about those? Probably not.) are not broadcasting in HD as of yet. That would be Gol TV, Stars in Black, and Stars Cinema. I didn't even check them all --there might be more.

So now we're down to no more than 19 (and maybe less if I googled the rest of the channels I didn't the first time thru).

Then ask yourself why the press release was worded that way in the first place. When asking yourself that question, keep in mind that it seems incredibly unlikely that the "road to the attempted D10 fix" started sometime after D12 arrived at 76 degrees and engineers started pounding on it.

Which do you believe happened? 1). DirecTV engineers have been plotting, scheming, and planning for years to take a crack at fixing D10. 2). Bob-the-new-wunderkid at D* engineering suddenly had an epiphany last month about how to fix D10 while working the overnight pounding on D12?

Dunno about you, but I find 1) a much higher-order probability.

And if you believe that, it has consequences. Like wording PRs a bit ambiguously so you can go either direction depending on how your testing of the D10 fix is going during D12 testing.

But, sure, if the D10 fix had proven to be unworkable, or not very helpful as to the improvement, during D12 testing, they could have taken the other route on their flowchart at that IF decision point. If that had happened and they followed the other "IF" instead, then likely you'd have more in May than you will now. . but I still don't see any particular reason to think it would have been thirty, and have shown at least three reasons (those channels mentioned upstream) why it wouldn't have been.

For my money, this whole thing sheds some light on the continued insistence of the mods, as passed on unofficially from D*, re "on service as planned" for D12, in the face of catcalls from others about how long it was taking to do the testing. Plans can have decision points. Any plan for a large, complicated project is sure to have them. Quite possibly the bringing up of any satellite qualifies as "large, complicated". . . but surely fitting in the testing of a possible fix to another satellite as part of that process qualifies as "large, complicated".


----------



## CTJon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, please...
> 
> maybe this thread could be a _little_ less chaotic than the DIRECTV12 thread?


No chance - the other one was beginning to calm down and DirecTV provided this new opportunity for lunacy


----------



## RyMcQ

inkahauts said:


> I still say to fill in the missing holes in some bizarre LIL areas


inkahauts, I know you have been following this issue for a long time. Is the problem with D10 spots the cause of my problem?

I live in the SLC market, which has had local HD for a long time, but due to some technical glitch with the spotbeams, I can't get HD in my city 300 miles from SLC. SD works fine and Dish doesn't have the same problem. And I have never been able to get anyone at DirecTV who knows what the plan is to fix the problem.

Edited to add: If this map (4th picture) is the planned footprint for my market's D12 spotbeam, then I'm probably still in trouble. I live between the red and orange lines near Vegas.

One more edit: Is there some reason they point the center of the spotbeam at SLC rather than at the geographic center of the market? Montana gets a better signal than the SW corner of Utah.


----------



## ShawnL25

inkahauts said:


> I'm not so sure that this development would allow them to add that many more markets, but it would likely allow them to almost double the number of LIL channels as a whole they are broadcasting at this time...
> 
> And more like 80 additional channels at this time I believe.. 16 x 5 = 80


I should have said additional lil in 60+ markets 
and 
16x5 = 80 plus this could free up an additional 2 tps that they turned off when D11 went live

2x5 = 10

80+10=90 conus


----------



## Sixto

ShawnL25 said:


> I should have said additional lil in 60+ markets
> and
> 16x5 = 80 plus this could free up an additional 2 tps that they turned off when D11 went live
> 
> 2x5 = 10
> 
> 80+10=90 conus


The reference was that D11 had 60 more channels (not markets) then D10. Not sure of the maximum.

D10 may stay with 14 national transponders, especially if the plan is to use the full D10 LiL bandwidth now.


----------



## Sixto

When you actually look at the process of what's about to occur, it's actually quite a large effort.

At last count, D10 has 391 HD LiL and 206 national HD mapped to it. For the national, it 206 defined, with maximum of about 70 at any given moment.

That's 600 channels that now need to be mapped to D12. Maybe they can just swing them over fairly easily, but it's still a major project. I also wonder if SW1 will be used to help with the LiL.

They're going to be busy.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

What do you mean by "206 defined"?


----------



## georule

So, reading people's speculation about overlap of coverage on the BSS if D10 and D12 are more-or-less in the same spot. . . if D10 is unloaded, then. . . .if they confirm the fix is good, couldn't they go on walk-about afterwards rather than return to the previous spot? They'd have to file for it, but there is no reason for them to do so previous to knowing if the fix has made the desired improvement or not, right?

Is there another spot that makes sense for them to put that bird that doesn't cause higgeldy-piggeldy for everything else?


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> What do you mean by "206 defined"?


There's 206 national HD channels mapped to D10. This includes full-time and part-time. Part-time includes every part-time RSN, Alternates, MLB, NBA, NHL, HotPass, ...

Obviously never transmitting more the 70 (14*5) at any given moment.


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> So, reading people's speculation about overlap of coverage on the BSS if D10 and D12 are more-or-less in the same spot. . . if D10 is unloaded, then. . . .if they confirm the fix is good, couldn't they go on walk-about afterwards rather than return to the previous spot? They'd have to file for it, but there is no reason for them to do so previous to knowing if the fix has made the desired improvement or not, right?
> 
> Is there another spot that makes sense for them to put that bird that doesn't cause higgeldy-piggeldy for everything else?


D10 is going to be moved to a safe location.

They're going to do the "procedure".

Would expect they'll possibly test if it worked, while safely away from the other sats.

They'll then move D10 back, and all will be back to normal.

If it worked, they'll have more spot functionality.

If it didn't work, then hopefully D10 will be just as good as before.


----------



## PhilS

Does anyone know if an insurance claim was filed b/c of the problems with D10 and if so, will DirecTV pay back Boeing or the insurance if all transponders on D10 are finally operational?


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> D10 is going to be moved to a safe location.
> 
> They're going to do the "procedure".
> 
> Would expect they'll possibly test if it worked, while safely away from the other sats.
> 
> They'll then move D10 back, and all will be back to normal.
> 
> If it worked, they'll have more spot functionality.
> 
> If it didn't work, then hopefully D10 will be just as good as before.


I get that's the public plan as of today. Of course, last week nobody knew bupkus about that publicly.

The thing is, they can't know for sure (presumably they have some confidence or they wouldn't try it --but they can't *know*) how well this is going to work. Further, they already have permission to operate D10 ~103, so that's "status quo" and no reason to jiggle the regulatory status quo on that point while there is still a conditional hanging out there as to the results of the attempted amelioration.

I guess my question is, if the amelioration works, might they then start thinking of asking to operate D10 somewhere other than its previously approved location? It'll be offloaded at that moment in time --if a switch in operating location was to be made, that would be when to request it, when the fix has been made, shown to work, and before it is back in active service.

Not saying there *is* a better place for it to be --just wondering.


----------



## HarleyD

With all this interest and activity surrounding the satellites themselves, who needs TV for entertainment?


----------



## TBoneit

Brent04 said:


> I hope that whatever they plan on doing to D10 doesn't damage the satellite further if what they try does not work.


MY Guess is that they had to come up with a plan and then talk to the insurance people for an OK. If something they try to fix it, instead bricks the whole satellite they would want to be covered.


----------



## raoul5788

georule said:


> I guess my question is, if the amelioration works, might they then start thinking of asking to operate D10 somewhere other than its previously approved location? It'll be offloaded at that moment in time --if a switch in operating location was to be made, that would be when to request it, when the fix has been made, shown to work, and before it is back in active service.
> 
> Not saying there *is* a better place for it to be --just wondering.


AFAIK, because of the lnbs currently in use, the only slots available for D10 is 99 and 103. Why not leave it where it is? I'm asking because I don't know enough to know if moving it to 99 would be beneficial in any way.


----------



## Satelliteracer

georule said:


> By my count, at least three of those channels of the 22 called out specifically on the list (presumably the others are the "DirecTV Cinema" additions referred to --and do we care THAT much about those? Probably not.) are not broadcasting in HD as of yet. That would be Gol TV, Stars in Black, and Stars Cinema. I didn't even check them all --there might be more.


Both Starz channels will go HD for the first time with D*, both were ready to go in May. Gol TV is the only one not yet broadcasting that could not be done in May.


----------



## georule

Satelliteracer said:


> Both Starz channels will go HD for the first time with D*, both were ready to go in May. Gol TV is the only one not yet broadcasting that could not be done in May.


Heh. Always nice to see that kind of honesty. Thanks for the input.

So I reverse my position --DAMN THAT DIRECTV for denying us our 30 channels in May!

I keed.


----------



## cforrest

PhilS said:


> Does anyone know if an insurance claim was filed b/c of the problems with D10 and if so, will DirecTV pay back Boeing or the insurance if all transponders on D10 are finally operational?


Depends if D* had in-orbit insurance on the satellite. In their S-4, D* stated they did not purchase in-orbit insurance on D12, no idea if this is common for them or not. If so, assume D* did not have in-orbit insurance on D10 either.


----------



## cdhinch

georule said:


> Is there another spot that makes sense for them to put that bird that doesn't cause higgeldy-piggeldy for everything else?


Probably not since they have to take fuel usage into consideration. You wouldn't want to shorten the life span of the bird by moving it +/- 10 to 20 degrees.


----------



## inkahauts

RyMcQ said:


> inkahauts, I know you have been following this issue for a long time. Is the problem with D10 spots the cause of my problem?
> 
> I live in the SLC market, which has had local HD for a long time, but due to some technical glitch with the spotbeams, I can't get HD in my city 300 miles from SLC. SD works fine and Dish doesn't have the same problem. And I have never been able to get anyone at DirecTV who knows what the plan is to fix the problem.
> 
> Edited to add: If this map (4th picture) is the planned footprint for my market's D12 spotbeam, then I'm probably still in trouble. I live between the red and orange lines near Vegas.
> 
> One more edit: Is there some reason they point the center of the spotbeam at SLC rather than at the geographic center of the market? Montana gets a better signal than the SW corner of Utah.


Gee, do you live in St. George or Cedar city?  If I'm reading that map wrong and you tell me you live in Beaver, I'm gonna be laughing like crazy....

I have no idea what to tell you about the spots for Utah... Sorry.. SD and HD are definitely different spots, coming from different locations, and have different patterns, SO that is why it is easy to understand why you get sd and not hd.

As for the issue your having with the HD.. If your in a fringe area,. I don;t know if that's really considered a technical glitch, or just a fact of living on the edge.... DO you know if others in your area get Directv ok?

We also have never seen a map of Directv 10 spots.. It is entirely possible that the spots on d10 and d12 don;t match exactly (or with D11 for that matter), and that maybe you are affected by the issues that D10 has experienced, and that after the "fix" you'll be better again, I have no idea....

What Dish has is completely irrelevante to your issue.. They use different sats...

Is your issue extremly low signals? I have no idea if it'd work, but maybe you should ask some of the installers in the installer section of this forum if maybe a Alaska or hawain dish would fix your issue... They are a little bigger from what I understand, but I don;t know much about those...

I could guess the reason the spot is aimed at SLC is that its the center of the DMA.. I don't know where all the lines are for that DMA... Maybe that area of Montana is in the SLC DMA?

Maybe Tom knows a bit more about the DMA and why the spot is pointed the way it is?


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> When you actually look at the process of what's about to occur, it's actually quite a large effort.
> 
> At last count, D10 has 391 HD LiL and 206 national HD mapped to it. For the national, it 206 defined, with maximum of about 70 at any given moment.
> 
> That's 600 channels that now need to be mapped to D12. Maybe they can just swing them over fairly easily, but it's still a major project. I also wonder if SW1 will be used to help with the LiL.
> 
> They're going to be busy.


You know, that's an interesting thought and might explain why they have just left the sw empty for a while..

If this works, its also possible we will see a massive amount of shuffling of all the LIL's across all 5 birds to better utilize all the spots among all the sats to get enough capacity for every market...

As you say, its kind of a GIANT deal what they are about to do...

I am curios if they are goign to try and do this all at once, or a few channels and markets each night or a few, then the rest, or something... Or maybe emptying SW1 was also a test for this shuffle in part?


----------



## inkahauts

georule said:


> I get that's the public plan as of today. Of course, last week nobody knew bupkus about that publicly.
> 
> The thing is, they can't know for sure (presumably they have some confidence or they wouldn't try it --but they can't *know*) how well this is going to work. Further, they already have permission to operate D10 ~103, so that's "status quo" and no reason to jiggle the regulatory status quo on that point while there is still a conditional hanging out there as to the results of the attempted amelioration.
> 
> I guess my question is, if the amelioration works, might they then start thinking of asking to operate D10 somewhere other than its previously approved location? It'll be offloaded at that moment in time --if a switch in operating location was to be made, that would be when to request it, when the fix has been made, shown to work, and before it is back in active service.
> 
> Not saying there *is* a better place for it to be --just wondering.


There is Zero reason to move the D10 sat to a different location, it wouldn't allow it to broadcast any more bandwidth than leaving it where its at now.... Nor would it change how much the other 2 sats can broadcast from there.... But there is negative affects of moving it, like using fuel.....


----------



## Indiana627

I just hope this fix gaurentees that we'll finally get HD LIL here in my market (Binghamton, NY).


Satelliteracer said:


> Yes, it is really good news and the engineers have been excited about the results.


Pretty much ends the debate about why the extra testing with D12 - they were testing the procedure to fix D10.


----------



## DirectMan

RyMcQ said:


> inkahauts, I know you have been following this issue for a long time. Is the problem with D10 spots the cause of my problem?
> 
> I live in the SLC market, which has had local HD for a long time, but due to some technical glitch with the spotbeams, I can't get HD in my city 300 miles from SLC. SD works fine and Dish doesn't have the same problem. And I have never been able to get anyone at DirecTV who knows what the plan is to fix the problem.
> 
> Edited to add: If this map (4th picture) is the planned footprint for my market's D12 spotbeam, then I'm probably still in trouble. I live between the red and orange lines near Vegas.
> 
> One more edit: Is there some reason they point the center of the spotbeam at SLC rather than at the geographic center of the market? Montana gets a better signal than the SW corner of Utah.


If you live in St George UT zip 84791 I have some good news for you - you will get 6 HD SLC locals as soon as D12 is switched on. How do I know this - I just put your zip in the D* local channel page and it spit out these channels as being available. I believe I read your or another OP's post a long time ago complaining about HD locals not reaching St. George. I assume the spots today still do not reach St. George is that correct?.

So yes by deductive reasoning the problem with D10 spots was the cause of your problem.


----------



## jdspencer

Indiana627 said:


> I just hope this fix gaurentees that we'll finally get HD LIL here in my market (Binghamton, NY)....


And I'm wondering just what HD channels we will get once DirecTV lights us up. Currently, we have the folllowing OTA, ABC with NBC on a subchannel, CBS with The CW on a subchannel, Fox with My Network on a subchannel, and PBS.


----------



## l'Aucherie

RyMcQ said:


> inkahauts, I know you have been following this issue for a long time. Is the problem with D10 spots the cause of my problem?
> 
> I live in the SLC market, which has had local HD for a long time, but due to some technical glitch with the spotbeams, I can't get HD in my city 300 miles from SLC. SD works fine and Dish doesn't have the same problem. And I have never been able to get anyone at DirecTV who knows what the plan is to fix the problem.
> 
> Edited to add: If (URL Deleted) (4th picture) is the planned footprint for my market's D12 spotbeam, then I'm probably still in trouble. I live between the red and orange lines near Vegas.
> 
> One more edit: Is there some reason they point the center of the spotbeam at SLC rather than at the geographic center of the market? Montana gets a better signal than the SW corner of Utah.


I also experience odd behavior with locals on D10 that has me puzzled. When I am at the cottage 500 miles away from my primary residence, the signal strength of the spot beam transponder carrying the PBS HD channels for my home market is, not unsurprisingly, zero except between 7 and 11pm when it ranges between 40 and 70, depending on weather conditions, allowing freeze free viewing of the channels. The transition between no and usable signal is completely predictable and occurs within minutes. Until I read this thread, I didn't know there was a problem with some of the D10 spot beams. I would be interested to know if the behavior I am seeing is symptomatic of the problem or expected on the fringes of a spot beam.


----------



## DirectMan

If D* is successful in its ameliorization of the spotbeam problem with D10 there could be a P/L impact to their results. They might have to reverse reserves that lowered the value of the D10 asset when the problem was discovered after launch and they might have to refund some money to Boeing or the insurance company that insured D10.

On the other hand they would now own a more valuable asset and less likely to require a backup satellite so that should reduce their capital expenditure requirements for the next year or two.


----------



## RyMcQ

inkahauts said:


> Gee, do you live in St. George or Cedar city?  If I'm reading that map wrong and you tell me you live in Beaver, I'm gonna be laughing like crazy....


If I told you I lived in the Fillmore-Beaver area, what would you do? 

Yeah, I'm in St. George. Towns 5 miles or so to the north and east get a signal, but we don't. I'm pretty sure that is true for the whole area. CSRs at DirecTV are always apologetic, but they can't give me any useful information about when they will fix the glitch.

I think it is a glitch because I've heard that it is not so much the signal strength that is a problem, but interference with the Vegas and Phoenix spotbeams. (Maybe they use the same frequencies. I don't know how this stuff works.) Anyway, I'm not sure if service would be intermittent on the fringe. DirecTV knew about the problem when I moved here 5 years ago, so they didn't even try to activate the HD locals for me. They did give me the LA nets, but they took those away about 3 years ago.

I finally gave up DirecTV (after 11 years) and switched to Dish. I'm really itching to come back. The DISH DVR is terrible and they are clearly not interested in improving it. Very loud fan.


----------



## RyMcQ

DirectMan said:


> If you live in St George UT zip 84791 I have some good news for you - you will get 6 HD SLC locals as soon as D12 is switched on. How do I know this - I just put your zip in the D* local channel page and it spit out these channels as being available. I believe I read your or another OP's post a long time ago complaining about HD locals not reaching St. George. I assume the spots today still do not reach St. George is that correct?.


Yeah, that was me complaining all those years ago. I get cranky when I can't get my TV in HD. 

I'm not sure it means anything to have the zip code say they are available. They definitely are not available right now. (I periodically call DirecTV to harass them.) I think that page might just recognize that St. George is in the SLC DMA and that market does have HD locals.

But I'm getting hopeful with this news. The thing that drives me crazy is that there is no one at DirecTV that I can reach that can tell me if they are even trying to fix the problem. As far as I know, they are content to let Dish have this city. Too much trouble to rearrange things for a community of 80,000 or so.

EDIT: Just called customer service and they state that the HD locals are not available in my area. The website says they are. Who knows?


----------



## Doug Brott

RyMcQ said:


> EDIT: Just called customer service and they state that the HD locals are not available in my area. The website says they are. Who knows?


It's entirely possible that the website is ready to go with the information but the CSRs aren't (D12 isn't parked yet) .. Give it a little more time ..


----------



## cforrest

DirectMan said:


> If D* is successful in its ameliorization of the spotbeam problem with D10 there could be a P/L impact to their results. They might have to reverse reserves that lowered the value of the D10 asset when the problem was discovered after launch and they might have to refund some money to Boeing or the insurance company that insured D10.
> 
> On the other hand they would now own a more valuable asset and less likely to require a backup satellite so that should reduce their capital expenditure requirements for the next year or two.


http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/944868/000104746907008607/a2180181z10-q.htm

Satellites

We may purchase in-orbit and launch insurance to mitigate the potential financial impact of satellite launch and in-orbit failures if the premium costs are considered economic relative to the risk of satellite failure. The insurance generally covers the unamortized book value of covered satellites. We do not insure against lost revenues in the event of a total or partial loss of the capacity of a satellite. We generally rely on in-orbit spare satellites and excess transponder capacity at key orbital slots to mitigate the impact a satellite failure could have on our ability to provide service. At September 30, 2007, the net book value of in-orbit satellites was $1,582 million, of which $1,351 million was uninsured.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/944868/000104746908001678/a2182833z10-k.htm

Satellite Risk Management.

We use launch and in-orbit insurance to mitigate the potential financial impact of satellite fleet launch and in-orbit failures unless the premium costs are considered to be uneconomical relative to the risk of satellite failure. The insurance generally does not compensate for business interruption or loss of future revenues or subscribers. We rely on in-orbit spare satellites and excess transponder capacity at key orbital slots to mitigate the impact of a potential satellite failure on our ability to provide service. However, programming continuity cannot be assured in all instances or in the event of multiple satellite losses.

Launch insurance typically covers the time frame from ignition of the launch vehicle through separation of the satellite from the launch vehicle. In the past, we have launched satellites without insurance. We expect to purchase launch insurance for DIRECTV 11. We do not currently expect to purchase in-orbit insurance for satellites to be launched. As of December 31, 2007, the net book value of in-orbit satellites was $1,552 million, of which $1,327 million was uninsured.

Doubt there is any insurance claim on D10, pretty much they are SOL and this move is to try and reclaim some lost bandwidth on the spotbeams.


----------



## mreposter

Satelliteracer said:


> With all due respect, I would disagree with that statement. Yes, the statement said "start", but that is to take into account these type of last minute changes. I believe you would have seen those 30 or very close to it if not for this recent change involving D10.


So you're saying that between the announcement on 4/20 that they would be adding 30 new HD channels soon and now they suddenly came up with a theory of how to fix D10?

Surely the D10 fix project has been under consideration for some time and they knew full well when they made the +30 HD announcement two weeks ago that no more than a handful would be go live in May.

We all have great hopes for D12 and hopefully a little more patience will pay off.


----------



## DirectMan

cforrest said:


> http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/944868/000104746907008607/a2180181z10-q.htm
> 
> Doubt there is any insurance claim on D10, pretty much they are SOL and this move is to try and reclaim some lost bandwidth on the spotbeams.


I would bet that D* received some credit or cash from Boeing to make up for the partial loss of use of D10 spotbeams if it resulted from a design or manufacturing defect.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DirectMan said:


> I would bet that D* received some credit or cash from Boeing to make up for the partial loss of use of D10 spotbeams* if it resulted from a design or manufacturing defect*.


 If that was the case...they likely would have little opportunity to actually correct it from the ground. It could be a software issue somehow, and with D10 offloading everything to D12...perhaps they can push the Red Reboot Button on D10 somehow...


----------



## DirectMan

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If that was the case...they likely would have little opportunity to actually correct it from the ground. It could be a software issue somehow, and with D10 offloading everything to D12...perhaps they can push the Red Reboot Button on D10 somehow...


Perhaps they are going to do similar to what NASA did to unstick a solar panel - turn the motor forward and reverse - maybe the equivalent on D10 is to rotate the satellite and then quickly stop or reverse the rotation to jar loose some sticky part.


----------



## tonyd79

mreposter said:


> So you're saying that between the announcement on 4/20 that they would be adding 30 new HD channels soon and now they suddenly came up with a theory of how to fix D10?
> 
> Surely the D10 fix project has been under consideration for some time and they knew full well when they made the +30 HD announcement two weeks ago that no more than a handful would be go live in May.


Possibly. But also they may have only known that was a possibility. The extra testing of D12 may have been the deciding factor. Unless someone had a last minute brainstorm (it does happen), they probably had several contingency plans and got it covered by making the wording vague on the coming HD rollout.

I've been involved in enough rollouts at work to know what kinds of statements you make and the contingencies plans you come up with because of projectable but not quite known factors.


----------



## inkahauts

mreposter said:


> So you're saying that between the announcement on 4/20 that they would be adding 30 new HD channels soon and now they suddenly came up with a theory of how to fix D10?
> 
> Surely the D10 fix project has been under consideration for some time and they knew full well when they made the +30 HD announcement two weeks ago that no more than a handful would be go live in May.
> 
> We all have great hopes for D12 and hopefully a little more patience will pay off.


Your making the assumption that the marketing team and the engineering team communicate well.. I imagine the marketing says this is when we want this to happen, and engineering says, uh, sure, well do that, and then ignores them and works on their timetable because rocket science isn't something you just make happen on a dime all the time...

I imagine the reason marketing made the announcement the way they did was to give them the out in case this fix was possible after testing, but never really thought it'd work, and they wanted to make an announcement after Dish made there stupid 200 "channel" announcement...


----------



## inkahauts

DirectMan said:


> I would bet that D* received some credit or cash from Boeing to make up for the partial loss of use of D10 spotbeams if it resulted from a design or manufacturing defect.


Your assuming that boeing didn't say all along they'd work on a fix right after this happened, and that this whole thing we are seeing now wasn't thought up ages ago, and until now, everyone has said, lets wait and see on the money front...


----------



## Tom Robertson

DirectMan said:


> If D* is successful in its ameliorization of the spotbeam problem with D10 there could be a P/L impact to their results. They might have to reverse reserves that lowered the value of the D10 asset when the problem was discovered after launch and they might have to refund some money to Boeing or the insurance company that insured D10.
> 
> On the other hand they would now own a more valuable asset and less likely to require a backup satellite so that should reduce their capital expenditure requirements for the next year or two.





DirectMan said:


> I would bet that D* received some credit or cash from Boeing to make up for the partial loss of use of D10 spotbeams if it resulted from a design or manufacturing defect.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> If that was the case...they likely would have little opportunity to actually correct it from the ground. It could be a software issue somehow, and with D10 offloading everything to D12...perhaps they can push the Red Reboot Button on D10 somehow...





PhilS said:


> Does anyone know if an insurance claim was filed b/c of the problems with D10 and if so, will DirecTV pay back Boeing or the insurance if all transponders on D10 are finally operational?





cforrest said:


> Depends if D* had in-orbit insurance on the satellite. In their S-4, D* stated they did not purchase in-orbit insurance on D12, no idea if this is common for them or not. If so, assume D* did not have in-orbit insurance on D10 either.


First a bit of moderation explanation, I moved the last two posts from the D12 thread, so the answers might not have been seen by those posters.

Based on my understanding of the redacted contract between Boeing and DIRECTV, my belief is that: 1) DIRECTV did not have insurance on D10 then (and doesn't now); 2) Boeing would have covered all the items on D10 as part of warranty since they were discovered before the turn over to DIRECTV; and 3) Boeing would have likely covered anyway since it was a manufacturing defect (of some form.)

I don't know if Boeing carries any insurance of their works in process. So it is possible "an insurance company" was involved by Boeing. Or they could self-insure.

DIRECTV and Boeing might not have settled any damages claims yet. They might have been working together to solve the problem first.

Or... Well good business partners have several ways to make deals... 

I'm excited by the possibility of a fix for D10. That is very intriguing.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MIAMI1683

seems like a bold move to me. Why not just add D12 and move on. Everything is good right now. I get it would fix some spot beam issues but if the repair fails. Does Directv have some serious issues for HD bandwidth


----------



## Sixto

MIAMI1683 said:


> seems like a bold move to me. Why not just add D12 and move on. Everything is good right now. I get it would fix some spot beam issues but if the repair fails. Does Directv have some serious issues for HD bandwidth


It's been posted that the engineers have been happy with some "results", which might imply that it's been tested with very little, if any, risk.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

MIAMI1683 said:


> seems like a bold move to me. Why not just add D12 and move on. Everything is good right now. I get it would fix some spot beam issues but if the repair fails. Does Directv have some serious issues for HD bandwidth


Apparently D* like to live on the edge, did you see the number on value to insured to uninsured sats? big numbers in my opinion. they must know something we dont lol.


----------



## LameLefty

brett_the_bomb said:


> Apparently D* like to live on the edge, did you see the number on value to insured to uninsured sats? big numbers in my opinion. they must know something we dont lol.


They know insurance on operational spacecraft is terribly expensive.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

LameLefty said:


> They know insurance on operational spacecraft is terribly expensive.


I can only imagine, thus the reason i trust what they are doing.


----------



## kevinwmsn

MIAMI1683 said:


> seems like a bold move to me. Why not just add D12 and move on. Everything is good right now. I get it would fix some spot beam issues but if the repair fails. Does Directv have some serious issues for HD bandwidth


It will be a couple of years before D* will launch another satellite. D* has been working increasing their LiL coverage and if this fix/repair will allow them to increase the number of DMAs they provide locals to more power to them. There are people out there that wouldn't subscribe to D* if they don't provide locals.


----------



## evan_s

Tom Servo said:


> I'm curious as to the benefits of 'balancing' the channel load over two satellites versus loading one up and using another for extra capacity. Is it a power issue?


From my understand, power is definitely an issue and a limiting factor. Dish currently has a sat or 2 that are working at reduced capacity because of solar panel failures.


----------



## wmb

LameLefty said:


> They know insurance on operational spacecraft is terribly expensive.


Kind of like the extended service plan on most personal electronic devices. $25 for a two year service plan on a $100 device.


----------



## inkahauts

MIAMI1683 said:


> seems like a bold move to me. Why not just add D12 and move on. Everything is good right now. I get it would fix some spot beam issues but if the repair fails. Does Directv have some serious issues for HD bandwidth





kevinwmsn said:


> It will be a couple of years before D* will launch another satellite. D* has been working increasing their LiL coverage and if this fix/repair will allow them to increase the number of DMAs they provide locals to more power to them. There are people out there that wouldn't subscribe to D* if they don't provide locals.


Not only that, I believe its what, 2012 or 2013, that they have to provide (assuming that the broadcasters agree) all HD channels for any given market if they offer any HD channels in a market... SO D10 fixed spot beams might mean they would be able to meet this goal without having to launch another sat before then... SO I can see why this may seem risky, but its nto any more risky than building and launching another sat I'll bet... 



evan_s said:


> From my understand, power is definitely an issue and a limiting factor. Dish currently has a sat or 2 that are working at reduced capacity because of solar panel failures.


I have a feeling that we will see both sats maxed out, especially for the spots, so I don't think power is going to be an issue.... In fact, I think D10 and D11, are probably running at full power now.. They may not be squeezing every channel possible, but all transponders are up and running, and have something be pushed on all them...

Does anyone know if a transponder only has say 3 or 4 channels on it, doesn't it still use the same amount of power as would a transponder pushing all the channels it could in its bandwidth?


----------



## harsh

inkahauts said:


> SO D10 fixed spot beams might mean they would be able to meet this goal without having to launch another sat before then...


This assumes that D10 and D12 spot beam capacity are additive. I have a feeling that this is not a reasonable assumption.


----------



## jasonblair

So will this mean that Terre Haute, IN and Amarillo, TX will finally get locals? I'm getting tired of calls from my mother and grandmother who have problems switching their TV inputs back and forth between their DirecTV boxes and their OTA converters!


----------



## ARKDTVfan

LameLefty said:


> They know insurance on operational spacecraft is terribly expensive.


Geico doesn't provide satellite insurance?:lol:


----------



## wmb

harsh said:


> This assumes that D10 and D12 spot beam capacity are additive. I have a feeling that this is not a reasonable assumption.


Why wouldn't they be additive? As long as the spots do not overlap geographically, the frequency can be reused numerous times across the country. Are you suggesting that both birds have their spots fixed on the same locations?


----------



## dgsiiinc

DirecTV wouldn't bother performing a corrective action on D10 if the spotbeams were redundant.


----------



## harsh

wmb said:


> Are you suggesting that both birds have their spots fixed on the same locations?


Yes. If one was designed to replace the other as a spare, it follows that they are identical in that respect. I wouldn't be surprised if the D11 spotbeam patterns weren't the same (or if they are different, maybe that's why D12 was to be an on-ground spare).

I hadn't previously thought to look at a spotbeam map to confirm one way or the other.

I once posed the idea that the spots might be able to be pointed remotely, but I was never able to find evidence to support it.


----------



## harsh

dgsiiinc said:


> DirecTV wouldn't bother performing a corrective action on D10 if the spotbeams were redundant.


The stated purpose of the application was to, at least initially, provide backup to D12's spots.

I expect that the "temporary" mention would be related to distributing the workload at some point.


----------



## oldfantom

MIAMI1683 said:


> seems like a bold move to me. Why not just add D12 and move on. Everything is good right now. I get it would fix some spot beam issues but if the repair fails. Does Directv have some serious issues for HD bandwidth


My guess on the situation is this...

You spend a lot of money to put one of these things up there. You figure, running at capacity, your investment is paid off in so many years. Then you loose capacity some of that capacity. So you spent a lot of money on something that isn't making money. So you spend more money trying to figure out how to get the thing operational. You get a plan. You evaluate the risk of the plan. Risk is darn near zero, you move forward with the plan. Add that to the fact that you can't just send up a replacement satellite next week, or next month or next year...

I would bet the risk is so minimal that you are better server about worrying over sun spot and stray meteorites.

Again, my guess.


----------



## harsh

jasonblair said:


> I'm getting tired of calls from my mother and grandmother who have problems switching their TV inputs back and forth between their DirecTV boxes and their OTA converters!


Have you contemplated getting them set up with HD receivers and OTA tuners as necessary? That way they don't risk losing any subchannels.


----------



## leww37334

This may have been asked already, but will there be enough fuel to move D10 to a new location and then move it back?


----------



## sigma1914

leww37334 said:


> This may have been asked already, but will there be enough fuel to move D10 to a new location and then move it back?


I hope so. :lol:


----------



## adkinsjm

leww37334 said:


> This may have been asked already, but will there be enough fuel to move D10 to a new location and then move it back?


I doubt the engineers would have bothered calculating that number. They'll probably just take your word as to how much fuel D10 has.


----------



## bamaweather

jasonblair said:


> So will this mean that Terre Haute, IN and Amarillo, TX will finally get locals? I'm getting tired of calls from my mother and grandmother who have problems switching their TV inputs back and forth between their DirecTV boxes and their OTA converters!


I've heard rumors that Terre Haute will be coming. (But maybe not necessarily as a result of this maneuver.) Haven't heard anything about Amarillo.


----------



## Tom Robertson

My thinking is this:
1) There are plenty of reasons to attempt the fix for D10 LILs. Redundancy being the number 1.
2) possibly some extra LILs. Remember spotbeams can share transponder frequencies in multiple areas of the US. So D10 and D12 could potentially serve more LILs if D10 becomes fully healthy.
3) another reason for the fix is to save Boeing from making warranty payments (or discounts) on D10.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobnielsen

It probably won't have a major effect but RB-2A, with its 4 spotbeams, _could possibly_ add to the total number of available locals.


----------



## Carl Spock

I have a capacity question if it isn't too far afield. It involves broken satellites so I think it's OK.

As we know with the recent zombification of Galaxy 15 by a solar storm, these satellites can go down at any moment. Having Boeing build D14 was just ordered by DirecTV's management, and it is planned to be a spare. What would happen if there was a problem before the 3-4 years it would take to get D14 built, launched and calibrated? Is there enough back-up capacity in the system that if D12 got zapped tomorrow, DirecTV could continue to broadcast and maybe even expand their line-up?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Carl Spock said:


> I have a capacity question if it isn't too far afield. It involves broken satellites so I think it's OK.
> 
> As we know with the recent zombification of Galaxy 15 by a solar storm, these satellites can go down at any moment. Having Boeing build D14 was just ordered by DirecTV's management, and it is planned to be a spare. What would happen if there was a problem before the 3-4 years it would take to get D14 built, launched and calibrated? Is there enough back-up capacity in the system that if D12 got zapped tomorrow, DirecTV could continue to broadcast and maybe even expand their line-up?


DIRECTV has plans for redundancy but they are very close lipped about them. So we know they exist but not sure what they really are.

And I'm sure they are very detailed depending on "what actually happens". Obviously if a whole satellite is ruined, DIRECTV will be hurtin' for awhile. If a few transponders go out and can't be replaced with spares, there might not be anything more than a quick burp for customers.

The good news is Boeing (and others) have learned quite a bit about building satellites better and better to prevent solar problems. Obviously it doesn't always work (ala G15) yet every bit helps.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cartrivision

dgsiiinc said:


> DirecTV wouldn't bother performing a corrective action on D10 if the spotbeams were redundant.
> 
> 
> harsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stated purpose of the application was to, at least initially, provide backup to D12's spots.
> 
> I expect that the "temporary" mention would be related to distributing the workload at some point.
Click to expand...

The flaw with that logic is that it ignores the well known fact that D12 was still on the ground when the plan had changed and D12 was no longer intended to be a spare for D10.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> This assumes that D10 and D12 spot beam capacity are additive. I have a feeling that this is not a reasonable assumption.


Fortunately, I do not use your logic...

It is absolutely a reasonable assumption...

The simple explanation of how they could be additive..

Directv uses several (I believe its 10 transponder frequencies, but I know its at least 6) transponder frequencies from 103 for spot beams, but only 2 or 3 per pattern.. If D12 spots are the same pattern as D10, then they would be able to give the D12 spots in the same area a different frequency range, and therefore double the capacity for every spotbeam pattern they have, which would be excellent for adding all the local hd channels and maybe even some sub channels. This would mean instead of 2 or 3 transponders being used in each dma, you'd see 4 to 6.. And there is no reason that wouldn't work just fine... It all depends on how they sort out their frequencies across patterns to negate fringe frequency interference. If I where them, I'd probably add half the total amount of additional capacity, allowing them to keep at least one spare transponder available in case one goes bad for each market...

Second, there is zero reason to believe that DIrectv couldn't have aimed some of the spots differently in an effort to compliment D10 in some areas, rather than replace it out right.. For example, leave it the exact same for areas that have a larger potential channel count, and for the areas that where affected by the "injured" spots on d10.. The rest of the spots on D12 could have been aimed differently to service markets they don't currently reach and didn't have an accurate spotbeam pattern to hit a particular market as well as they would have liked...

Either way, logic says, there is no reason they can't fire up d12 and d10 spots together, and use all the spot beams in an additive manner, rather than a reserve only matter...

Of course, the other thing they could do is split the locals between the two and then maybe free up a few more frequencies for conus transponders.... I expect them to just give themselves more local capacity though...


----------



## harsh

cartrivision said:


> The flaw with that logic is that it ignores the well known fact that D12 was still on the ground when the plan had changed and D12 was no longer intended to be a spare for D10.


Huh?

DIRECTV announced in their application for launch in August 2009 that D12 was destined for 103W and was to replace D10's spot beams. To wit:


DIRECTV 12 application for launch authority said:


> The satellite will also be capable of supporting 49 spot
> beams that will serve as in-orbit redundancy or replacement for several operational
> scenarios. Initially, DIRECTV intends to use this satellite, in part, to take over
> retransmission of HD local services currently being provided by DIRECTV 10, at which
> time the spot beam capability of DIRECTV 10 will become the backup for that capability
> on DIRECTV 12.


That pretty much lays out the whole scenario.

Be especially careful to note the phrase "redundancy or replacement". This pretty much slams the door on anything resembling additional spot beam capacity.


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> Huh?
> 
> DIRECTV announced in their application for launch in August 2009 that D12 was destined for 103W and was to replace D10's spot beams. To wit:That pretty much lays out the whole scenario.
> 
> Be especially careful to note the phrase "redundancy or replacement". This pretty much slams the door on anything resembling additional spot beam capacity.


You may think that the door has been closed, but as I said, and as inkahouts explains in more detail in the post just above, your logic is flawed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cartrivision said:


> You may think that the door has been closed, but as I said, and as inkahouts explains in more detail in the post just above, your logic is flawed.


Agreed. There are new D10 corrective measure alternatives now (thanks to D12) that simply were not there in 2009.

Unless someone would want to take an eyes wide shut approach.


----------



## wavemaster

I think D11 was too pressing (needed capacity) to run the test with. D12 has a little breathing room time and capacity wise. This gives the time to test and the birds capacity as a backup for a worst case scenario.

Having managed thousands of servers through the years there is odds you could calculate that there will be a problem during a reboot. We have had servers run non-stop for more than a year between reboots when during a reboot they go AWOL. In our case it is sitting in a rack in a cage in one of the DC's and can have "hands on" if needed, D* doesn't have that luxury. So even if they knew about this fix prior to D11 going into service, I don't think they would have tried it then anyway.

Keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## Carl Spock

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV has plans for redundancy but they are very close lipped about them. So we know they exist but not sure what they really are.


Thanks, Tom, for the answer. I suspect DirecTV has a lot of hidden capacity to keep these expensive hummers working as machinery fails. When Dish Network's AMC-14 failed to reach geosynchronous orbit in 2008, everyone was saying would be limit their launching of more HD feeds. What did Dish do to respond? They significantly expanded their HD line-up using the existing hardware in orbit.


----------



## tkrandall

Do we have any idea whether the "procedure" involves doing anything physical with the spacecraft such as putting it through some maneuver, cycling the hardware (antennas, panels,. etc) through a post-launch deployment process again, etc to try and jog whatever is wrong into its proper position? (this of course asssumes the source of the original spot beam anomaly is physical in nature)


----------



## kevinwmsn

Wasn't 2008 when Dish start going HD-Lite?


----------



## harsh

Spot beams are a lot like colors on a map. You must maintain a certain level of separation between them or they will interfere with each other.

Most of us have experienced the ravages of skip on AM radio or problems with multipath on digital television and it isn't a good idea to set something like that up by design.


----------



## leww37334

adkinsjm said:


> I doubt the engineers would have bothered calculating that number. They'll probably just take your word as to how much fuel D10 has.


Thanks for the very informative reply, I am sure this will help influence other posters when they want to ask a question.


----------



## Carl Spock

kevinwmsn said:


> Wasn't 2008 when Dish start going HD-Lite?


No, it was well before that. They've always used more compression than DirecTV. (BTW, I think the HD Lite charge is unwarrented. While I do see a difference between a DirecTV feed and a Dish one, the difference is minor and there is always a trade-off between capacity and quality in any medium. Everyone, and that includes DirecTV, has to make these tough decisions. If you and I were in Dish's boardroom, we might well choose to make the same choice they made.)


----------



## LameLefty

Carl Spock said:


> No, it was well before that. They've always used more compression than DirecTV. (BTW, I think the HD Lite charge is unwarrented.


Downrezing 1080i signals from 1920 x 1080 to 1440 x 1080 is pretty clearly "HD Lite". If they wanted to really compete on PQ (and if they had the bandwidth to do so), they wouldn't bother.


----------



## housemr

so in laymens terms directv gave me a new dish last year because they said i needed it when i upgraded to hd, so will i have to upgrade that dish again or will i just turn on the tv and have the new channels like travel hd and espnu hd when this goes into full effect?


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

You should not need a new dish.


----------



## Hdhead

housemr said:


> so in laymens terms directv gave me a new dish last year because they said i needed it when i upgraded to hd, so will i have to upgrade that dish again or will i just turn on the tv and have the new channels like travel hd and espnu hd when this goes into full effect?


Nothing to do, they will just appear.


----------



## Carl Spock

LameLefty said:


> Carl Spock said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it was well before that. They've always used more compression than DirecTV. (BTW, I think the HD Lite charge is unwarrented.
> 
> 
> 
> Downrezing 1080i signals from 1920 x 1080 to 1440 x 1080 is pretty clearly "HD Lite". If they wanted to really compete on PQ (and if they had the bandwidth to do so), they wouldn't bother.
Click to expand...

Nice editing.

The point of the rest of my post is that they don't choose to compete on picture quality, and that the quality versus quantity issue is true of any medium. I can get great bass off of a phonograph record but you'll only get 10 minutes a side. 70mm film has a phenominal picture but it uses a lot of stock. (Cost is almost always somewhere in these discussions, too.) A land based telephone line sounds the best but is totally wasteful in terms of capacity. And the derogatory nature of the term HD Lite neglects the real world trade-offs all media companies make. Does DirecTV have a better picture than Dish? Yes. On that there's no argument. Do I think they deserve to be put down for making that choice? No, no more than a Internet board who chooses to ban .gif avatars to speed page loading times, not that I'm mentioning any names.


----------



## housemr

Hdhead said:


> Nothing to do, they will just appear.


Thanks


----------



## LameLefty

Carl Spock said:


> Nice editing.


I learned on Usenet a long time ago to trim quoted material so I could specifically address a point. 



> The point of the rest of my post is that they don't choose to compete on picture quality, and that the quality versus quantity issue is true of any medium.


Great. We agree. 



> I can get great bass off of a phonograph record but you'll only get 10 minutes a side.


I disagree. If your bass is too low and the amplitude too high, the needle will jump right out of the groove. Screw that "vinyl warmth" (and the snap, crackle and pop that comes with it). Give me 24 bit, 48 khz digital all day, please. 



> 70mm film has a phenominal picture but it uses a lot of stock. (Cost is almost always somewhere in these discussions, too.)


A first-generation print is great until it's been run through the projector a few times. Then is sucks. Again, digital is a good thing here.



> A land based telephone line sounds the best but is totally wasteful in terms of capacity.


You must be young. Before telcos went digital, landlines SUCKED, especially if you called out of your local area code. 



> And the derogatory nature of the term HD Lite neglects the real world trade-offs all media companies make.


The label fits. Downrezzing sucks. Don't use it if you don't personally like the term.

Does Directv make quality choices I disagree with? Sure - I wish they'd bump the bitrate on SD material back to what it was when I first sub'd in 1997. I used to judge DVDs in comparison with the movies I could see on Directv. Those days are long gone, I'm afraid. 



> Does DirecTV have a better picture than Dish? Yes. On that there's no argument. Do I think they deserve to be put down for making that choice? No, ... (SNIPPED)


Here we disagree. 



> ... no more than a Internet board who chooses to ban .gif avatars to speed page loading times, not that I'm mentioning any names.


I don't like animated .gifs simply because they take a very long time to load and render on most mobile connections. I'm sure if everyone agreed to keep their .gifs to 8-bit color static images no one would care.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> Spot beams are a lot like colors on a map. You must maintain a certain level of separation between them or they will interfere with each other.
> 
> Most of us have experienced the ravages of skip on AM radio or problems with multipath on digital television and it isn't a good idea to set something like that up by design.


Good description, especially when thinking about a single transponder frequency "painted" across the US. 

(to everyone, not particularly relating to the quoted post above) Have plans regarding the 5 satellite fleet? I would say they have. And likely several times as Boeing and DIRECTV test, study, learn, and test some more.

Some important points:
D12 was purchased as a ground spare, tho I am certain it was always planned to go into space as a fully operational satellite should D10 and D11 launch and perform as expected. (And roughly as they did.) 

As I said, the whole fleet has some redundancy built in, tho I do not know specifics aside from the spare TWAs and transponders. Dr. J, gct, and Sixto are fantastic sources for digging out possibilities. Great job, guys!

I'm not sure if D12 will add more LIL space or not if D10 is completely fixed. I suspect D12's spots can be somewhat adjusted in some manner so D10 and D12 could have separate spots, thereby adding more spot capacity.

I'm wondering if D12 could paint the same areas but with different frequencies thus adding spot capacity?

At the end of the day... Woohoo! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## James Long

Carl Spock said:


> They've always used more compression than DirecTV.


Not "always". DirecTV had their own "HD Lite" period. Fortunately for their customers they don't do that any more.



Tom Robertson said:


> Good description, especially when thinking about a single transponder frequency "painted" across the US.


One minor note ... spots using the same frequencies can overlap, they just can't be used to serve customers in the overlapping area. As long as the frequency is unique from that orbital position to the market/customers that the spot is designed to serve interference outside of that market is irrelevant.


----------



## curt8403

with the changes (Improvements) that local markets that have marginal coverage will get improvements with the spotbeam coverage


----------



## harsh

curt8403 said:


> with the changes (Improvements) that local markets that have marginal coverage will get improvements with the spotbeam coverage


Assuming that this plan were eventually approved, what "improvements" would those be?


----------



## Skyboss

Just a hunch. What are the odds D12 had the same problem 10 had, they were able to fix it and will now try the same on D10 because it worked.

Just saying... Err.... Stiring the pot....


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That sounds far-fetched to me, unless you're saying that the problem was intentionally created on D12 to test the fix for D10.


----------



## tonyd79

Skyboss said:


> Just a hunch. What are the odds D12 had the same problem 10 had, they were able to fix it and will now try the same on D10 because it worked.
> 
> Just saying... Err.... Stiring the pot....


Nah, more like they ran D12 through the steps that they need to do with D10 to see if reality matched theory. This would especially be true if it meant some moves that timing was critical. Theory is a good thing but you want to test the theory out.


----------



## curt8403

harsh said:


> Assuming that this plan were eventually approved, what "improvements" would those be?


we could guess that with the improvements that some markets (Salt Lake City for example) would have better coverage for locals. Currently the signal for HD locals goes as far south as Cedar City (roughly) hopefully it would reach as far south as St. George.
This is just speculation, not a pronouncement


----------



## Tom Robertson

tonyd79 said:


> Nah, more like they ran D12 through the steps that they need to do with D10 to see if reality matched theory. This would especially be true if it meant some moves that timing was critical. Theory is a good thing but you want to test the theory out.


You're very close.

What Boeing did is rush D12 past D10 shake the reflectors with the solar wake. (Hence the overshoot that D12 now needs to make up; but that is for the other thread.)

Now, with the reflectors shaken (and not stirred), D10 is moving slightly to have enough room for the stirring; thus ameliorating the problems completely.

Whereby D10 will move back and all will be perfectly fine.


----------



## Skyboss

Stuart Sweet said:


> That sounds far-fetched to me, unless you're saying that the problem was intentionally created on D12 to test the fix for D10.


No. I'm saying what if D12 had the same problem D10 has, they fixed it and now will fix D10 the same way.


----------



## Skyboss

Tom Robertson said:


> (Hence the overshoot that D12 now needs to make up; but that is for the other thread.)


Nice. :lol:


----------



## adkinsjm

curt8403 said:


> we could guess that with the improvements that some markets (Salt Lake City for example) would have better coverage for locals. Currently the signal for HD locals goes as far south as Cedar City (roughly) hopefully it would reach as far south as St. George.
> This is just speculation, not a pronouncement


Doesn't that spot go up to Montana and North Dakota? At least for HD locals.


----------



## P Smith

Skyboss said:


> Just a hunch. What are the odds D12 had the same problem 10 had, they were able to fix it and will now try the same on D10 because it worked.
> 
> Just saying... Err.... Stiring the pot....


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2448725&postcount=8843


----------



## georule

So, in Minneapolis/St. Paul we have a putatively HD channel (KSTC/45) that is not currently carried by DirecTV in HD (tho is in SD). This sorry little excuse for a TV station would matter not in the least. . . except for the fact that it has exclusive rights to some Minnesota Twins, Minnesota Wild, and Minnesota Timberwolves broadcasts, and sometimes deigns to make those broadcasts in HD. Today, I have to fiddle with my antenna (and give up the ability to DVR them in HD at the same time) if I want those broadcasts in HD rather than the SD that D* is providing.

Does this spotbeam amelioration on D10 do anything towards making KSTC more likely to show up as HD on my D* box?


----------



## Skyboss

P Smith said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2448725&postcount=8843


Great minds think alike...


----------



## Tom Robertson

georule said:


> So, like in Minneapolis/St. Paul we have a putatively HD channel (KSTC/45) that is not currently carried by DirecTV in HD (tho is in SD). This sorry little excuse for a TV station would matter not in the least. . . except for the fact that it has exclusive rights to some Minnesota Twins, Minnesota Wild, and Minnesota Timberwolves broadcasts, and sometimes deigns to make those broadcasts in HD. Today, I have to fiddle with my antenna (and give up the ability to DVR them at the same time) if I want those broadcasts in HD rather than the SD that D* is providing.
> 
> Does this spotbeam amelioration on D10 do anything towards making KSTC more likely to show up as HD on my D* box?


Unlikely. My guess the carriage agreement is the hold up, especially since the station: is already carried in SD and has sports content that DIRECTV might like to carry for the local fans.

Can you get the antenna arranged well enough to use an AM-21 with your DVRs?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## syphix

georule said:


> So, in Minneapolis/St. Paul we have a putatively HD channel (KSTC/45) that is not currently carried by DirecTV in HD (tho is in SD). This sorry little excuse for a TV station would matter not in the least. . . except for the fact that it has exclusive rights to some *Minnesota Twins*, Minnesota Wild, and Minnesota Timberwolves broadcasts, and sometimes deigns to make those broadcasts in HD. Today, I have to fiddle with my antenna (and give up the ability to DVR them in HD at the same time) if I want those broadcasts in HD rather than the SD that D* is providing.
> 
> Does this spotbeam amelioration on D10 do anything towards making KSTC more likely to show up as HD on my D* box?


Twins don't play on 45. Only WFTC29, FSN-North and Fox 9.


----------



## curt8403

adkinsjm said:


> Doesn't that spot go up to Montana and North Dakota? At least for HD locals.


well it does extend to the north and east.
It does not extend as far South as St. George/


----------



## georule

syphix said:


> Twins don't play on 45. Only WFTC29, FSN-North and Fox 9.


Oopsie, you're right. To tell you the truth, I only care about the Wild. So it isn't urgent at the moment, and won't be again until October. . .just wondering. I had an email chat with the 45 GM last year, and she certainly gave the impression the ball (and puck) was in D*'s court. Maybe I'll ping D* directly, tho I haven't had a great deal of luck with their website contact form in the past.


----------



## inkahauts

Tom Robertson said:


> You're very close.
> 
> What Boeing did is rush D12 past D10 shake the reflectors with the solar wake. (Hence the overshoot that D12 now needs to make up; but that is for the other thread.)
> 
> Now, with the reflectors shaken (and not stirred), D10 is moving slightly to have enough room for the stirring; thus ameliorating the problems completely.
> 
> Whereby D10 will move back and all will be perfectly fine.


!rolling

I didn't know DirecTV employed Jame Bond too!


----------



## georule

Tom Robertson said:


> Can you get the antenna arranged well enough to use an AM-21 with your DVRs?


Oh ho. I was not aware of that option. Yeah, the OTA signal is pretty solid. Thanks for the suggestion. Not a joy to have to pay to get it done, but options are always nice to have.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> Spot beams are a lot like colors on a map. You must maintain a certain level of separation between them or they will interfere with each other.
> 
> Most of us have experienced the ravages of skip on AM radio or problems with multipath on digital television and it isn't a good idea to set something like that up by design.


Only if they are using the same transponder frequencies next to each other with different channels on the transponders... This is why they generally use different frequencies adjacent to each other for different markets where there is potential for overlap of signals.

You should know this, I am sure Dish does the same thing with their spots! 

And leaving this tidbit out is why your logic is flawed, again...


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> Huh?
> 
> DIRECTV announced in their application for launch in August 2009 that D12 was destined for 103W and was to replace D10's spot beams. To wit:That pretty much lays out the whole scenario.
> 
> Be especially careful to note the phrase "redundancy or replacement". This pretty much slams the door on anything resembling additional spot beam capacity.


Um, you do realize that companies change their minds on things now and again right?

And that if they hadn't been able to make this fix it maneuver work, then there is no harm, no foul, because they never promised something that they can't deliver... (and nothing has been publicly announced that they are even trying to fix this, so as far as the general public knows, that original plan is still there, in case the fix doesn't fix the spots)

However if they can get this to work, why on earth do you think they'd just sit on it and not use the additional capacity? Because they mentioned ONCE publicly that they where going to no longer use the d10 spots? DO you not think that if the D10 spots work they might not change their plans some? It would be naive to assume that a company will only do things they announce, and would never make a change to their plans based on new developments and opportunities. That's a Dish move, not a Directv one... :nono2:


----------



## inkahauts

georule said:


> Oopsie, you're right. To tell you the truth, I only care about the Wild. So it isn't urgent at the moment, and won't be again until October. . .just wondering. I had an email chat with the 45 GM last year, and she certainly gave the impression the ball (and puck) was in D*'s court. Maybe I'll ping D* directly, tho I haven't had a great deal of luck with their website contact form in the past.


How many local channels are they broadcasting in hd in your market now?


----------



## inkahauts

georule said:


> So, in Minneapolis/St. Paul we have a putatively HD channel (KSTC/45) that is not currently carried by DirecTV in HD (tho is in SD). This sorry little excuse for a TV station would matter not in the least. . . except for the fact that it has exclusive rights to some Minnesota Twins, Minnesota Wild, and Minnesota Timberwolves broadcasts, and sometimes deigns to make those broadcasts in HD. Today, I have to fiddle with my antenna (and give up the ability to DVR them in HD at the same time) if I want those broadcasts in HD rather than the SD that D* is providing.
> 
> Does this spotbeam amelioration on D10 do anything towards making KSTC more likely to show up as HD on my D* box?


I just looked.. It appears there is space for ONE more HD channel in your market at this current time.... SO it could be in Directvs court, or it may be they are waiting till they get more capacity so they can light up more than one more channel at a time... Is PBS on in your market? And you are currently getting 9 channels digital broadcast, correct?


----------



## georule

inkahauts said:


> I just looked.. It appears there is space for ONE more HD channel in your market at this current time.... SO it could be in Directvs court, or it may be they are waiting till they get more capacity so they can light up more than one more channel at a time... Is PBS on in your market? And you are currently getting 9 channels digital broadcast, correct?


I count 7 (zip code 55303), with one of them PBS. Big 4, plus PBS (KTCA), CW (WUCW), and WFTC (A Fox-owned independent).

Edit: Gratifyingly, I got an almost immediate reply from DirecTV customer service re KSTC HD. It basically said "sorry, we know --capacity". I've ordered an AM-21 for my HR-22. Seems like it might be a useful thing to have around for rain fades as well anyway. Oddly enough, the D* rep didn't suggest it in his reply; he just said to get an off air antenna, but that they don't offer them directly.


----------



## harsh

curt8403 said:


> we could guess that with the improvements that some markets (Salt Lake City for example) would have better coverage for locals.


I certainly don't mean to suggest that there isn't room for improvement.

I'm asking why you think that D12 could do a better job than D10 has been doing.


----------



## curt8403

harsh said:


> I certainly don't mean to suggest that there isn't room for improvement.
> 
> I'm asking why you think that D12 could do a better job than D10 has been doing.


because the spotbeams with d10 have had issues since launch


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> because the spotbeams with d10 have had issues since launch


Which he ought to know, since I corrected his orbital mechanics misapprehensions all the way through the D10 thread.


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> What Boeing did is rush D12 past D10 shake the reflectors with the solar wake.


Only the Sun generates things big enough to be considered "solar". 


> Now, with the reflectors shaken (and not stirred), D10 is moving slightly to have enough room for the stirring; thus ameliorating the problems completely.


Coasting by at 256Km (160 miles) away, those would need to be solar magnitude wakes indeed!

One has to wonder if the problem is mechanical or electrical.


----------



## harsh

curt8403 said:


> because the spotbeams with d10 have had issues since launch


Do you know that the D10 SLC spot beam is so afflicted?


----------



## curt8403

harsh said:


> Do you know that the D10 SLC spot beam is so afflicted?


 it is not just SLC, a lot are afflicted. seems to have to do with the actual diameter of the spotbeam as seen from the ground. I am just hoping that with the adjustments that they will be able to widen the beam (again I am just hoping)


----------



## LilMountain

Here's some information about spot beams on both D10 and D12.

DirecTV 10 Beams: {at satbeams.com}
Ka-band Spot 2 Beam (Atlanta) (active)
Ka-band CONUS Beam (active)
Ka-band Spot 3 Beam (Los-Angeles) (active)
Ka-band Spot 1 Beam (Tampa) (active)
=====================================+=====================

DirecTV 12 Beams: {at satbeams.com}
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ka-band A1B1 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1B2 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B3 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1B4 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B5 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1B6 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B7 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1B8 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B9 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1BA Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1BB Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1BC Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B1 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2B2 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B3 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2B4 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B5 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2B6 Spot beam (predicted) 
Ka-band A2B7 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2B8 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B9 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2BA Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2BB Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2BC Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2BD Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B1 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B2 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B3 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B4 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B5 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B6 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B7 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B8 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B9 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3BA Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3BB Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B1 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4B2 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B3 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4B4 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B5 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4B6 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B7 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4B8 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B9 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4BA Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4BB Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4BC Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4BD Spot beam (predicted)

Ka-band North America Spot beam (predicted) [This is CONUS Beam]
===========================================================

If you assume information is correct for both links and also assume:

(1) that ACTIVE D10 spot beams are all that are now usable before any FIX
(2) that all or most of the PRECIDTED beams for D12 could be activated
(3) that the D10 as launched included a significantly higher number of spot beams than are now usable
(4) that the proposed D10 FIX would recover a significant number of the current non-available spot beams

If the engineering FIX is good, the risk small enough and D10 has another 11 year of life, it appears to make very good since.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

LilMountain said:


> Here's some information about spot beams on both D10 and D12.
> 
> DirecTV 10 Beams: {at satbeams.com}
> Ka-band Spot 2 Beam (Atlanta) (active)
> Ka-band CONUS Beam (active)
> Ka-band Spot 3 Beam (Los-Angeles) (active)
> Ka-band Spot 1 Beam (Tampa) (active)
> =====================================+=====================
> 
> DirecTV 12 Beams: {at satbeams.com}
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ka-band A1B1 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1B2 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A1B3 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1B4 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A1B5 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1B6 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A1B7 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1B8 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A1B9 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1BA Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A1BB Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A1BC Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A2B1 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2B2 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A2B3 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2B4 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A2B5 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2B6 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A2B7 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2B8 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A2B9 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2BA Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A2BB Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A2BC Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A2BD Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B1 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A3B2 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B3 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A3B4 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B5 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A3B6 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B7 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A3B8 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3B9 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A3BA Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A3BB Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A4B1 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4B2 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A4B3 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4B4 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A4B5 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4B6 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A4B7 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4B8 Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A4B9 Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4BA Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A4BB Spot beam (predicted) Ka-band A4BC Spot beam (predicted)
> Ka-band A4BD Spot beam (predicted)
> 
> Ka-band North America Spot beam (predicted) [This is CONUS Beam]
> ===========================================================
> 
> If you assume information is correct for both links and also assume:
> 
> (1) that ACTIVE D10 spot beams are all that are now usable before any FIX
> (2) that all or most of the PRECIDTED beams for D12 could be activated
> (3) that the D10 as launched included a significantly higher number of spot beams than are now usable
> (4) that the proposed D10 FIX would recover a significant number of the current non-available spot beams
> 
> If the engineering FIX is good, the risk small enough and D10 has another 11 year of life, it appears to make very good since.


Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

Interesting info. I'll have to check out the links. 

Mike


----------



## Pepe Sylvia

New here, so I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask.

Could there be additional local HD channels allocated with the increased capacity? For instance, places where PBS is not in HD yet.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It's too early to tell that.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Pepe Sylvia said:


> New here, so I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask.
> 
> Could there be additional local HD channels allocated with the increased capacity? For instance, places where PBS is not in HD yet.


Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

It's possible that there will be some additions in locals, including PBS but nobody knows yet.

I'm not sure anyone will be able to tell us for sure which markets will be involved until things are settled with D10 & D12.

Mike


----------



## Pepe Sylvia

Thanks. I just have the feeling that if I buy one of those AM21 tuners, they'll light up the ones I'm missing.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The AM21s are not that expensive, and it's very unlikely DIRECTV will light up all of the subchannels....


----------



## PhilS

harsh said:


> Only the Sun generates things big enough to be considered "solar". Coasting by at 256Km (160 miles) away, those would need to be solar magnitude wakes indeed!
> 
> One has to wonder if the problem is mechanical or electrical.


Do we know if it's a mechanical problem? My guess is a software or firmware problem that requires a new version of software and a reboot, then adjustment and test of the new spot beams. Thus the requirement to move and take D10 offline.


----------



## mikep554

PhilS said:


> Do we know if it's a mechanical problem? My guess is a software or firmware problem that requires a new version of software and a reboot, then adjustment and test of the new spot beams. Thus the requirement to move and take D10 offline.


I would guess that it is a hardware problem, but they have developed a software fix to help work around the hardware problem. However, they couldn't test their potential solution because they would have had to take D10 offline for some period while the played around and tweaked their solution. D12 gave them an out-of-service bird to use as a testbed.

D12 also provides the capacity to completely free up D10, allowing them to upload and verify the fix that they tested on D12.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If off-loading the content to D12, and then doing some form of reset or reconfig is anticipated to resolve the matter...its likely a software issue.

That option simply was not there before D12 arrived as a place to temporarily keep all existing broadcasts operational while a reset took place and was tested.


----------



## dewey

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If off-loading the content to D12, and then doing some form of reset or reconfig is anticipated to resolve the matter...its likely a software issue.
> 
> That option simply was not there before D12 arrived as a place to temporarily keep all existing broadcasts operational while a reset took place and was tested.


If it were just a software issue why does d10 have to move? couldn't they just update the software and "reboot" while it is still in the same position?


----------



## Lord Vader

And what would happen to the channels being broadcast during this "reboot"? Think about that for a minute.


----------



## dewey

Lord Vader said:


> And what would happen to the channels being broadcast during this "reboot"? Think about that for a minute.


I thought all of the channels were going to be off-loaded to D12 before the corrective action. I guess I'm confused. I still don't understand why D10 has to physically move from it's current position.


----------



## Tom Robertson

dewey said:


> I thought all of the channels were going to be off-loaded to D12 before the corrective action. I guess I'm confused. I still don't understand why D10 has to physically move from it's current position.


The why is part of the few clues we have. If it is purely software, would it need to move?

If it is hardware, would it need to move farther?

If it is lack of pizza, who the heck is going to deliver? 

Or is there a software component needed to fix the hardware? 

And how often do they upgrade the software on the satellites normally?

(Ok, one of the above questions might not be a serious one...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## prushing

D12 launched with a self fixing robot that will fly over to D10, fix it, and then return home to D12, kinda like a roomba. Maybe it has a laser to zap debris also.

They probably have to move it because it might need to be restarted and don't want to going off course and taking another dish with it.


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> The why is part of the few clues we have. If it is purely software, would it need to move?
> 
> If it is hardware, would it need to move farther?


How about the technicians oldest trick ... unplug it? A power cycle reboot. Moving it away from the rest of the fleet so it doesn't go bump before the reboot is complete?


----------



## cartrivision

dewey said:


> I thought all of the channels were going to be off-loaded to D12 before the corrective action. I guess I'm confused. I still don't understand why D10 has to physically move from it's current position.


That's what I said a few pages back... the move seems to suggest that they are going to do something "physical" to D10 to fix the spotbeam issue. It doesn't seem that the satellite would have to be moved just to load different software or to do a control-alt-delete.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

dewey said:


> I thought all of the channels were going to be off-loaded to D12 before the corrective action. I guess I'm confused. I still don't understand why D10 has to physically move from it's current position.


Keep in mind im speculating but i could guess that they are moving it to test afterwards to see if the fix acutally worked without interfering with the broadcasting on d12... just a guess


----------



## Avder

Tom Robertson said:


> The why is part of the few clues we have. If it is purely software, would it need to move?
> 
> If it is hardware, would it need to move farther?
> *
> If it is lack of pizza, who the heck is going to deliver? *
> 
> Or is there a software component needed to fix the hardware?
> 
> And how often do they upgrade the software on the satellites normally?
> 
> (Ok, one of the above questions might not be a serious one...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Reminds of of the episode of robot chicken where NASA got 20,000 free pizzas in a row by having their guys on the space station order ffrom dominoes over and over.

"allrighty and if its not there in 30 minutes its free. Can I get the address?"
"Try 35,000 miles IN ORBIT!"

I'd order a pizza for the DirecTV technicians if it meant this whole D12 D10 thing would go faster and Fargo finally got HD locals.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> How about the technicians oldest trick ... unplug it? *A power cycle reboot*. Moving it away from the rest of the fleet so it doesn't go bump before the reboot is complete?


There's an app for that.


----------



## mechman

georule said:


> Oopsie, you're right. To tell you the truth, I only care about the Wild. So it isn't urgent at the moment, and won't be again until October. . .just wondering. I had an email chat with the 45 GM last year, and she certainly gave the impression the ball (and puck) was in D*'s court. Maybe I'll ping D* directly, tho I haven't had a great deal of luck with their website contact form in the past.


Off topic...

I would never trust anything from a Hubbard owned station. Nine times out of ten they don't even broadcast it in HD. Even when the feed they receive from the X is HD.

:backtotop


----------



## grover517

prushing said:


> D12 launched with a self fixing robot that will fly over to D10, fix it, and then return home to D12, kinda like a roomba. Maybe it has a laser to zap debris also.


Sounds like a job for an Exocomp!


----------



## georule

Tom Robertson said:


> The why is part of the few clues we have. If it is purely software, would it need to move?
> 
> If it is hardware, would it need to move farther?
> 
> If it is lack of pizza, who the heck is going to deliver?
> 
> Or is there a software component needed to fix the hardware?
> 
> And how often do they upgrade the software on the satellites normally?
> 
> (Ok, one of the above questions might not be a serious one...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


My guess is 102.6 is slightly outside the window where our dishes would get strong enough signal from D10 to see anything. Remember, they aren't just going to want to make whatever change is necessary to attempt to fix it. They're going to want to test that fix as well before they put it back in a service position. I would guess they'd just as soon not have the world eating popcorn and watching the results of that testing.

Otherwise, why not just take D12 straight to 103 and do their testing there?


----------



## LameLefty

georule said:


> My guess is 102.6 is slightly outside the window where our dishes would get strong enough signal from D10 to see anything.


More to the point, it creates angular separation as seen from the command and control ground stations . . . ergo, moving the satellite a hundred miles or so helps ensure that signals sent up to D10 for the amelioration process do not interfere with normal operations of D12.


----------



## georule

LameLefty said:


> More to the point, it creates angular separation as seen from the command and control ground stations . . . ergo, moving the satellite a hundred miles or so helps ensure that signals sent up to D10 for the amelioration process do not interfere with normal operations of D12.


Hmm. That kind of thing isn't encrypted uniquely for each bird? D12 could really have a "Are you talkin' to me?!" kinda moment with D10 comms?

Or are you talking about just physical interference with D12 signals from D10-to-ground and ground-to-D10 comms passing thru D12-to-customer signal paths?

If the latter, wouldn't that continue to be an issue after they move D10 back? They keep talking to these birds while on operational station, right? Tho possibly the sheer volume of comms necessary for the amelioration and testing of results process makes it a different kettle of fish during that period than regular and usual ops comms.


----------



## LameLefty

georule said:


> Tho possibly the sheer volume of comms necessary for the amelioration and testing of results process makes it a different kettle of fish during that period than regular and usual ops comms.


Based on my understanding of the amelioration process (and the root problem they are trying to address), that makes the most sense: there will be a lot of data passing back and forth between ground stations and D10, both TT&C stuff plus test signals for the transponders being worked on.


----------



## georule

Tho come to think of it, if part of D10's mission will be redundancy, then testing the same frequencies D12 is using would be part of what you'd want to test. . .so again, you want to be "out of sight" of the customers while doing it.


----------



## Sixto

Have been updating post#1 with the daily D10 updates, so we can get a basis to compare to, and (hopefully) notice when D10 starts moving.


----------



## LilMountain

My location is about 250 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico and 300 west of Atlanta with a 5LNB antenna. Thinking while looking at the D10(cb) and D10(s) transponder signal strengths on one of my H20 100 Receivers BEFORE they start their move/fix processes, I noticed:

(1) The 3 active D10 spot beams(s) on satbeams.com show them for Atlanta, Los Angeles and Tampa
(2) I get D10 readings of 91(T17), 78(T18), and 81(T21) with all other (s) reading T1-T6, T15-16, T19-T20, T22-T24 all 0 
(3) I get D10 readings on active ODD and EVEN (cb) transponders similar to the ODD and EVEN (s) transponders
(4) Predicted spot beams for D12 show realistic spot beams footprints for Atlanta, LA, and Tampa areas

I wonder if D10 has really never been able to use its spot beams but instead had used 3 CONUS beams to supply Atlanta, LA and Tampa. If they were using spot beams, why would my (s) readings look like CONUS? Over the past several years D* may have figured out what to do to correct that problem and that’s what will be done in the pending FIX. Seems possible to me.


----------



## georule

I've got useable signal on 103(s) at 19 and 20 in metro Twin Cities, MN. I've got low 50s on 21 and 22, so I tend to think that's not really aimed at me.


----------



## inkahauts

LilMountain said:


> My location is about 250 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico and 300 west of Atlanta with a 5LNB antenna. Thinking while looking at the D10(cb) and D10(s) transponder signal strengths on one of my H20 100 Receivers BEFORE they start their move/fix processes, I noticed:
> 
> (1) The 3 active D10 spot beams(s) on satbeams.com show them for Atlanta, Los Angeles and Tampa
> (2) I get D10 readings of 91(T17), 78(T18), and 81(T21) with all other (s) reading T1-T6, T15-16, T19-T20, T22-T24 all 0
> (3) I get D10 readings on active ODD and EVEN (cb) transponders similar to the ODD and EVEN (s) transponders
> (4) Predicted spot beams for D12 show realistic spot beams footprints for Atlanta, LA, and Tampa areas
> 
> I wonder if D10 has really never been able to use its spot beams but instead had used 3 CONUS beams to supply Atlanta, LA and Tampa. If they were using spot beams, why would my (s) readings look like CONUS? Over the past several years D* may have figured out what to do to correct that problem and that's what will be done in the pending FIX. Seems possible to me.


Oh, I See why you might read it that way, but you are missing a LOT of information on how spotbeams work.. They are most definitely NOT using conus beams for spots right now...

First, you can only see signals for spots that are actually hitting your area, usually 2 to 4 transponders..

There are 10 transponder frequencies that are reserved for spot beams from D10. Second, there are something like 49 transponders being used for spots.. and basically, some use the same frequencies in different areas to broadcast different channels. For example, the ones you see, they are only shooting signal in your area. The same transponder numbers aimed at la and tampa are actually only using the same frequency, but using different physical transponders that are pointed to those areas, so that they can transmit different channels to each market. The issues seem to be that a few spots may or may not be working, or may or may not be targeted to the market like they where intended to be, for example, the SLC DMA seems to be miss aimed, but since DirecTV has never issued any specifics, we don't know for sure exactly what is wrong with the spots on d10, but a good amount of them are actually working.... 

At the moment that D10 is broadcasting Local channels via spotbeams to 50+ different markets.

NO way to do this with conus beams.

You should check out the following two threads to see a bit more data on how lal this works together...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175181

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295

By the way, the spotbeam transponders numbers 1 thru 6 are reserved for the spaceway sat.

D12 will have spots aimed roughly the same as d10 did, if this fix hadn't worked it would have taken over. As it is, I think D12 and d10 can work in unison with all the spots covering the same areas, and adding additional frequencies, but thats just me speculating.. We will see the real results in time...


----------



## LilMountain

Thanks for the information. I’ve been doing satellite TV since October 1961 and DirecTV since 1995. I do have a basic understanding of spot beams and how they work. That’s why I made the original post. My logic was based on assuming that satbeams.com’s information on D10 beams

Ka-band Spot 2 Beam (Atlanta) (active)
Ka-band CONUS Beam (active)
Ka-band Spot 3 Beam (Los-Angeles) (active)
Ka-band Spot 1 Beam (Tampa) (active)

was correct and only 3 spot beams were active. My readings on D10(s) transponders were all 0 except for the three I logged. 

If only 3 are active and I get readings on 3 at levels similar to my reception on D10(ca) transponders it looked like they had to be the same 3 as shown on satbeams.com spot beam information. Since I’m almost outside of the last defined footprint level for Atlanta and far removed from any LA or Tampa footprints, what was I logging? I used the term CONUS simply to indicate that if I was logging 3 readings at D10(ca) levels, it surely could not be from spot beams.

Is there a link to D10(s) a transponder mapping available? Again, thanks.


----------



## bobnielsen

LilMountain said:


> Thanks for the information. I've been doing satellite TV since October 1961 and DirecTV since 1995.


October 1961? The first satellite used for TV was Telstar, launched in February 1962.


----------



## LilMountain

Sorry for the typo. It was 1981 with a 13' solid aluminum manually rotated C-Band antenna just in time to see the backhaul of the World Series. Later changed antenna twice ending with 1 14-1/2' Paraclipse C/KU that's still in my back yard on top of 4-1/2 yards of concrete. Actually stopped using it in 2008.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

An impressive pedigree. In 1981 I was only wishing I could do that.


----------



## LilMountain

Stuart Sweet said:


> An impressive pedigree. In 1981 I was only wishing I could do that.


I guess that one of the few advantages of being 72.


----------



## Alan Gordon

inkahauts said:


> You should check out the following two threads to see a bit more data on how lal this works together...
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175181
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


Another good thread is: DIRECTV Beam Footprint Library

The information for D10 is lacking, but there's a lot of good information regarding D12's spot-beams.

NOTE to LilMountain: The Atlanta HD-LIL is offered via two spot-beams on D10 - TPN #16 and #20.

~Alan


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Alan Gordon said:


> Another good thread is: DIRECTV Beam Footprint Library
> 
> The information for D10 is lacking, but there's a lot of good information regarding D12's spot-beams.
> 
> NOTE to LilMountain: The Atlanta HD-LIL is offered via two spot-beams on D10 - TPN #16 and #20.
> 
> ~Alan


Looks like D12 will add 2 beams to the Chicago area any thing on D10 that hit's Chicago or will we just get our missing LIL HD when D12 is up and working?


----------



## alnielsen

JoeTheDragon said:


> Looks like D12 will add 2 beams to the Chicago area any thing on D10 that hit's Chicago or will we just get our missing LIL HD when D12 is up and working?


Maybe we will get WSPY-TV Plaino. :lol:


----------



## inkahauts

LilMountain said:


> Thanks for the information. I've been doing satellite TV since October 1961 and DirecTV since 1995. I do have a basic understanding of spot beams and how they work. That's why I made the original post. My logic was based on assuming that satbeams.com's information on D10 beams
> 
> Ka-band Spot 2 Beam (Atlanta) (active)
> Ka-band CONUS Beam (active)
> Ka-band Spot 3 Beam (Los-Angeles) (active)
> Ka-band Spot 1 Beam (Tampa) (active)
> 
> was correct and only 3 spot beams were active. My readings on D10(s) transponders were all 0 except for the three I logged.
> 
> If only 3 are active and I get readings on 3 at levels similar to my reception on D10(ca) transponders it looked like they had to be the same 3 as shown on satbeams.com spot beam information. Since I'm almost outside of the last defined footprint level for Atlanta and far removed from any LA or Tampa footprints, what was I logging? I used the term CONUS simply to indicate that if I was logging 3 readings at D10(ca) levels, it surely could not be from spot beams.
> 
> Is there a link to D10(s) a transponder mapping available? Again, thanks.


Satbeams.com, which I just looked at, is missing a massive amount of information.. There are more than 3 pots active.

In this post...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2413585#post2413585

You should pull the last file, and open it in excel. If you know how, you can run a filter, and only look at the info for D10, then only look at the networks that are 3 digits long (see the network decoders in the first couple of files) and you will see just how many spots are actually active.

You are likely logging the beam for Atlanta.. Spots drop of pretty quick, and when you are in the middle of the spot, its often that you will see higher numbers than your conus beams.. I have weak numbers on my dish right now, in the low 70's for d10, yet my spots are 98 to 100 still... (I'm in the LA market too by the way)

The map mentioned a post or two ago is the most detailed we have seen for any of the d10, d11 and d12 spot patterns, but d10 and d11 where simply representative, so anything you find on them is form others who have deduced that info, and they did a good job on some of them.


----------



## inkahauts

Alan Gordon said:


> Another good thread is: DIRECTV Beam Footprint Library
> 
> The information for D10 is lacking, but there's a lot of good information regarding D12's spot-beams.
> 
> NOTE to LilMountain: The Atlanta HD-LIL is offered via two spot-beams on D10 - TPN #16 and #20.
> 
> ~Alan


Thanks, I forgot about that one!


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> More to the point, it creates angular separation as seen from the command and control ground stations . . . ergo, moving the satellite a hundred miles or so helps ensure that signals sent up to D10 for the amelioration process do not interfere with normal operations of D12.


I highly doubt that that's the reason for the move. The D12 is designed to be co-located with D10 at 103W, and control signals sent to either of them will only be acted upon by the satellite that they are intended for despite the fact that they both can see/receive the other's control signals.... just like only one HR2x DVR at a time responds to the remote control codes intended to control it, while all the other DVRs in the house are smart enough to ignore the commands that are not meant for them when they receive the RF signal.


----------



## Lord Vader

alnielsen said:


> Maybe we will get WSPY-TV Plaino. :lol:


I'd be happy with only WCIU 26-1! Watching ball games in SD on 26 is painful.


----------



## HerntDawg

I hope that D10 gets fixed and will give us more capacity.


----------



## tyrok3k

I can only imagine what insurance would cost for a $300 million satellite.


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> I highly doubt that that's the reason for the move.


You believe what you want. I'll believe what I know.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Lord Vader said:


> I'd be happy with only WCIU 26-1! Watching ball games in SD on 26 is painful.


I want MY50 as well and CLTV HD


----------



## jdspencer

So, just how do they make this swap over to D12 from D10? Since D10 is still at 103, I surmise that they have to move channels from D10 to D12 using equivalent TPs and then turn off the TP on D10. This would be a sequential process going through all TPs (probably at night so as to not disrupt service). And once complete they can move D10 to its testing spot at 106. In the meantime they light up the new HD on D12.

This is just my simple thoughts on a very complex situation. 

Detailed info is welcome.


----------



## harsh

Does anyone know how much of this "corrective action" would require some sort of FCC grant?

I'm thinking that there would need to be an STA to move D10 out and back and nothing more.

I would think that the various LIL channel transitions could pretty much be handled at DIRECTV's discretion (perhaps by flash cutting between birds) but they wouldn't bother with a complete CONUS transition without a grant.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Does anyone know how much of this "corrective action" would require some sort of FCC grant?
> 
> I'm thinking that there would need to be an STA to move D10 out and back and nothing more.
> 
> I would think that the various LIL channel transitions could pretty much be handled at DIRECTV's discretion (perhaps by flash cutting between birds) but they wouldn't bother with a complete CONUS transition without a grant.


The recent FCC filing referenced another STA coming for "the procedure".


----------



## evan_s

jdspencer said:


> So, just how do they make this swap over to D12 from D10? Since D10 is still at 103, I surmise that they have to move channels from D10 to D12 using equivalent TPs and then turn off the TP on D10. This would be a sequential process going through all TPs (probably at night so as to not disrupt service). And once complete they can move D10 to its testing spot at 106. In the meantime they light up the new HD on D12.
> 
> This is just my simple thoughts on a very complex situation.
> 
> Detailed info is welcome.


It's 102.6 not 106 =)

I believe that in the past they first get the channel up and running in both locations and then change the mapping information so that everyone is looking at the new location and once they are satisfied that everything is working correctly they turn off the old one.


----------



## LilMountain

Alan -Thanks for the additional information. I did download the excel transponder file and pulled out D10 transponders.

I posted all locations for transponders 17 18 and 21 to my copy to see why my signal levels were that high. Mystery solved. Transponders 17 & 18 split the Memphis stations and 21 includes some New Orleans stations. Checking the projected D12 footprints for both cities showed excellent reception for those spot beams.

I did capture a local map library of the 50 projected D12 beams. If there is an actual set available after all settles out, it might be interesting to compare to the set.

I guess the old adage about believing nothing you read and only 1/2 of what you see still holds true.


----------



## doctor j

LilMountain said:


> I did capture a local map library of the 50 projected D12 beams. If there is an actual set available after all settles out, it might be interesting to compare to the set.


These are more than projected. They are absolute gain curves taken from the FCC application and thus I believe quite firm.

Data points taken and projected onto a Google Earth shell.
Fairly impressive work done by spears61!

Doctor j


----------



## jdspencer

evan_s said:


> It's 102.6 not 106 =)....


Close enough for gov't work!


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> You believe what you want. I'll believe what I know.


I didn't post anything based on belief. If you would care participate in an intelligent discussion about anything that I posted based on what you believe, or what you know, or what you believe you know, I'd be happy to listen and learn, but the above response is of little use to me or anyone else looking to understand more about this subject.


----------



## LilMountain

doctor j - I picked up "projected" from the satbeam.com beam titles and I guess thinking about the D10 spot beam problems assumed that the actual footprints after all is finished could vary from the initial design values. But, you are right. The Spears61 work is really great.


----------



## Sixto

D10 FCC Move Approved (5/12/2010).


----------



## trdrjeff

:goodjob:


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> D10 FCC Move Approved (5/12/2010).


Wait! I'm still using it!


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> D10 FCC Move Approved (5/12/2010).


Cool.

Have they filed the STA for the amelioration yet?


----------



## Sixto

James Long said:


> Cool.
> 
> Have they filed the STA for the amelioration yet?


Nope, but everyone here will be the first to know.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Are we looking at a few weeks to fix D10 or a few months?


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> Have they filed the STA for the amelioration yet?


[strike]The grant that Sixto mentioned above is the drift grant that they needed.[/strike]


SAT-STA-20100507-00095 said:


> Description: DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to temporarily relocate the DIRECTV 10 satellite to the 102.6 WL location, and to continue operations during its migration to, and upon reaching, that location.


The application mentioned discontinuing commercial service on D10 prior to the drift so I'm a little surprised by this description. Maybe "operations" in this case means TT&C?


----------



## CTJon

Although I have a lot of faith in DirecTV, I sure hope they aren't screwing around and screw something up on 5/23 when the last LOST is being broadcast.


----------



## tonyd79

harsh said:


> The grant that Sixto mentioned above is the drift grant that they needed.The application mentioned discontinuing commercial service on D10 prior to the drift so I'm a little surprised by this description. Maybe "operations" in this case means TT&C?


Or perhaps if they agree to cease operations (whatever that means), they have to dance through hoops again to get it turned back on. Or maybe asking it stay live just means they have options. Or maybe they want it live at 103 so they can test it all out before moving it back and the move will only take a day or so.

Lots of possibilities.


----------



## jdspencer

CTJon said:


> Although I have a lot of faith in DirecTV, I sure hope they aren't screwing around and screw something up on 5/23 when the last LOST is being broadcast.


 A good reason to have OTA as a backup.


----------



## dcowboy7

CTJon said:


> Although I have a lot of faith in DirecTV, I sure hope they aren't screwing around and screw something up on 5/23 when the last LOST is being broadcast.


Thats the night of the family guy star wars special II. :icon_hroc


----------



## harsh

It would seem that the only "coordination" that they have to contend with is D12. If one assumes that they are moving D10 to D12 in toto, then the spotbeams that don't work on D10 (but they want to test) wouldn't need to be active on D12 until LIL expansion continues and there wouldn't be much risk of interference.


----------



## cforrest

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815199


----------



## syphix

Hutchinshouse said:


> Are we looking at a few weeks to fix D10 or a few months?


*bump*


----------



## sigma1914

Hutchinshouse said:


> Are we looking at a few weeks to fix D10 or a few months?





syphix said:


> *bump*


No one knows for sure.


----------



## LameLefty

I understand that the 30 day STA request is probably a good estimate.


----------



## Sixto

The 30 day STA is for the drift, we haven't seen the "procedure" STA yet, but expect that to also be the standard 30 days, and do expect D10 to get there much sooner then 30 days.


----------



## georule

I don't want to put *too* much emphasis on this, because the poor bastiches who write these things almost certainly aren't intending the degree of scrutiny and parsing that DBSTalk can bring to them, but if one were to take that STA literally, then the start of the "amelioration" cannot be expected before June 13.

It's a 30 day STA from May 14, and says "At the conclusion of the STA period, the satellite will be in position for the corrective procedure to be attempted." Which if taken at face value, means the "fix" doesn't even get attempted (let alone how long testing of results takes) until June 13.

Jes' sayin'.


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> I don't want to put *too* much emphasis on this, because the poor bastiches who write these things almost certainly aren't intending the degree of scrutiny and parsing that DBSTalk can bring to them, but if one were to take that STA literally, then the start of the "amelioration" cannot be expected before June 13.
> 
> It's a 30 day STA from May 14, and says "At the conclusion of the STA period, the satellite will be in position for the corrective procedure to be attempted." Which if taken at face value, means the "fix" doesn't even get attempted (let alone how long testing of results takes) until June 13.
> 
> Jes' sayin'.


Agree, but it all depends on how the next STA is written. Will it start at D10's arrival at 102.6 or have a fixed date. We await the next filing.


----------



## LameLefty

georule said:


> I don't want to put *too* much emphasis on this, because the poor bastiches who write these things almost certainly aren't intending the degree of scrutiny and parsing that DBSTalk can bring to them, but if one were to take that STA literally, then the start of the "amelioration" cannot be expected before June 13.
> 
> It's a 30 day STA from May 14, and says "At the conclusion of the STA period, the satellite will be in position for the corrective procedure to be attempted." Which if taken at face value, means the "fix" doesn't even get attempted (let alone how long testing of results takes) until June 13.
> 
> Jes' sayin'.


Yeah, I know. But considering they are moving D10 only on the order of 100 miles, it shouldn't take anywhere near 30 days.


----------



## bobnielsen

Depending on the nature of the amelioration, my interpretation of the STA indicates that it may cover everything needed (however, IANAL).


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> Agree, but it all depends on how the next STA is written. Will it start at D10's arrival at 102.6 or have a fixed date. We await the next filing.


Being an engineer, writing and thinking like one, the STA referred to on the bottom of the first page may be to D12. Its STA is over soon, and D12 will be in location for the procedure to be attempted.

Looking at the filing in post 325, it indicates the migraton of D10 will be for 30 days. The question is whether at the end of that time, is D10 back at its assigned location, ameliorated.


----------



## Sixto

wmb said:


> Being an engineer, writing and thinking like one, the STA referred to on the bottom of the first page may be to D12. Its STA is over soon, and D12 will be in location for the procedure to be attempted.
> 
> Looking at the filing in post 325, it indicates the migration of D10 will be for 30 days. The question is whether at the end of that time, is D10 back at its assigned location, ameliorated.


The links in post#1 are the STA for D10.

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to temporarily relocate the DIRECTV 10 satellite to the 102.6 WL location, and to continue operations during its migration to, and upon reaching, that location."

We've not yet seen the "procedure" STA, and the key point will be the start-date.


----------



## georule

LameLefty said:


> Yeah, I know. But considering they are moving D10 only on the order of 100 miles, it shouldn't take anywhere near 30 days.


The movement, no. . .but that's not all they are doing under this STA. They're also transferring channels to D12, and may also be doing other prep work for the amelioration. As I understand it, they don't need an STA to do prep work for the fix, just to attempt it.

I actually don't think it will take 30 days under this STA. I'm just pointing out that if this fix/test/back into service for D10 thing goes well into July (assuming the second STA is also 30 days and not issued until mid-June), there is nothing we've seen so far that would justify complaining that somehow D* had mislead us into thinking it would be quicker than that.

Again, it may go faster. . . but from what I've seen of this thread (not everyone of course, but enough), the tendency is for a little "Rosy scenario" followed by recriminations, so I'm trying to set expectations a little more conservatively than that.


----------



## jefbal99

bobnielsen said:


> Depending on the nature of the amelioration, my interpretation of the STA indicates that it may cover everything needed (however, IANAL).


I'm of the same thought process. It says to continue operations and I see this "fix" as normal operations. I think the next STA will be to drift back to 102.715, verify the fix worked, and start broadcasting to the home.


----------



## Hdhead

Is there any way to know when D10 programming actually starts being off-loaded to D12. With all transponders active on both birds don't see how we could know for sure?


----------



## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> Is there any way to know when D10 programming actually starts being off-loaded to D12. With all transponders active on both birds don't see how we could know for sure?


I think Sixto, doctor j and gct should be able to tell from their analysis of the transponder mappings in their Guide data collection and analysis.


----------



## Sixto

Hdhead said:


> Is there any way to know when D10 programming actually starts being off-loaded to D12. With all transponders active on both birds don't see how we could know for sure?





LameLefty said:


> I think Sixto, doctor j and gct should be able to tell from their analysis of the transponder mappings in their Guide data collection and analysis.


We'll know. Day-by-day. 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=172899


----------



## georule

Tom Robertson said:


> Unlikely. My guess the carriage agreement is the hold up, especially since the station: is already carried in SD and has sports content that DIRECTV might like to carry for the local fans.
> 
> Can you get the antenna arranged well enough to use an AM-21 with your DVRs?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Btw. . .AM-21 arrived today, hooked up, works great, all is good with the world. 

Thanks, bro.


----------



## P Smith

georule said:


> Btw. . .AM-21 arrived today, hooked up, works great, all is good with the world.
> 
> Thanks, bro.


Sort of PM type post ... irrelevant for the thread.

:backtotop


----------



## Sixto

Have added the D10 Drift link to post#1:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=817066​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Have added the D10 Drift link to post#1:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=817066​


Cool!

Another process step addressed....things moving ahead (pun intended).


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Cool!
> 
> Another process step addressed....things moving ahead (pun intended).


One significant open item, is when will the "procedure" start. It seems like 6/14 might be worst case, but maybe it can be sooner, maybe.

We'll know more after the next STA filing and/or after we see D10 get to 102.6 and understand when every D10 channel is offloaded.

It seems like the first half (move/offload/ameliorate) may be the longest leg, much longer then getting D10 back a couple of tenths of a degree and starting up some new HD, assuming that the "new" HD is going on D10.

If the fix is quick (7-10 days), and starts 6/14, maybe we can see D10 light up by the end of June.

Maybe.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Sixto said:


> One significant open item, is when will the "procedure" start. It seems like 6/14 might be worst case, but maybe it can be sooner, maybe.
> 
> We'll know more after the next STA filing and/or after we see D10 get to 102.6 and understand when every D10 channel is offloaded.
> 
> It seems like the first half (move/offload/ameliorate) may be the longest leg, much longer then getting D10 back a couple of tenths of a degree and starting up some new HD, assuming that the "new" HD is going on D10.
> 
> If the fix is quick (7-10 days), and starts 6/14, maybe we can see D10 light up by the end of June.
> 
> Maybe.


so june for 30 and they when for 40 that are left?


----------



## Sixto

JoeTheDragon said:


> so june for 30 and they when for 40 that are left?


Let's hope for the first 30 in Q2 first.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Sixto said:


> Let's hope for the first 30 in Q2 first.


Does the more Local HD come with the first 30?


----------



## Sixto

JoeTheDragon said:


> Does the more Local HD come with the first 30?


Hopefully D12 has more capability for LiL then D10, and LiL comes soon, but have no idea.


----------



## Sixto

Tomorrow's public notice:On May 12, 2010, the Satellite Division granted, with conditions, the request of DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC for special temporary authority, for a period of 30 days, commencing on May 14, 2010, to conduct telemetry, tracking, and telecommand operations with the DIRECTV 10 space station during a drift of the space station from the 102.815º W.L. orbital location to the 102.6º W.L. orbital location. DIRECTV is authorized to provide commercial service to its subscribers during the drift of the DIRECTV 10 space station from the 102.815º W.L. orbital location to the 102.6º W.L. orbital location, and at the 102.6º W.L. orbital location, while DIRECTV transfers all customer traffic from the DIRECTV 10 space station to the DIRECTV 12 space station.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=816873​


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Tomorrow's public notice:On May 12, 2010, the Satellite Division granted, with conditions, the request of DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC for special temporary authority, for a period of 30 days, commencing on May 14, 2010, to conduct telemetry, tracking, and telecommand operations with the DIRECTV 10 space station during a drift of the space station from the 102.815º W.L. orbital location to the 102.6º W.L. orbital location. *DIRECTV is authorized to provide commercial service to its subscribers during the drift of the DIRECTV 10 space station from the 102.815º W.L. orbital location to the 102.6º W.L. orbital location, and at the 102.6º W.L. orbital location, while DIRECTV transfers all customer traffic from the DIRECTV 10 space station to the DIRECTV 12 space station.*
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=816873​


Interesting. Thanks for posting this notice, Sixto.


----------



## Groundhog45

Sixto said:


> Tomorrow's public notice:On May 12, 2010, the Satellite Division granted, with conditions, the request of DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC for special temporary authority, for a period of 30 days, commencing on May 14, 2010, to conduct telemetry, tracking, and telecommand operations with the DIRECTV 10 space station during a drift of the space station from the 102.815º W.L. orbital location to the 102.6º W.L. orbital location. DIRECTV is authorized to provide commercial service to its subscribers during the drift of the DIRECTV 10 space station from the 102.815º W.L. orbital location to the 102.6º W.L. orbital location, and at the 102.6º W.L. orbital location, while DIRECTV transfers all customer traffic from the DIRECTV 10 space station to the DIRECTV 12 space station.
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=816873​


More good news.


----------



## tkrandall

How does the remapping from one sat to another say happen during a broadcast? Signal sent down from the sats to all receivers to look at another TP? Can the recivers do that while tuned to a channel that is being remapped?


----------



## dennisj00

Not sure if it's related but the 'Letterman' show just left the planet with a 'No need to call us' banner around 12:20. . .Local channel 3.

OTA 3.1 is fine. . .


----------



## dennisj00

Again, not sure it's related to the move but had to tune away from 3 and back to it after a couple of blank screens. . . it's fine now.


----------



## gsanta

In the last day or so I have started to see a lot of 771 messages. I looked up the first dozen (202,207,212,215,216,229,231,241,242,244,247,248 all HD) and according to Lyngsat they are all on DirecTV 10. Could this move be the cause of my problems? Is there anything I can do about it?


----------



## Sixto

gsanta said:


> In the last day or so I have started to see a lot of 771 messages. I looked up the first dozen (202,207,212,215,216,229,231,241,242,244,247,248 all HD) and according to Lyngsat they are all on DirecTV 10. Could this move be the cause of my problems? Is there anything I can do about it?


There has not been any confirmation of any movement of D10.

Post#1 always has D10's latest location, per the latest data available.


----------



## P Smith

gsanta said:


> In the last day or so I have started to see a lot of 771 messages. I looked up the first dozen (202,207,212,215,216,229,231,241,242,244,247,248 all HD) and according to Lyngsat they are all on DirecTV 10. Could this move be the cause of my problems? Is there anything I can do about it?


Perhaps someone try to steal your antenna. 

As to mapping those channels - DTV often shuffle channels, so check latest assignments here, look into gct's tables and Sixto's dedicated thread.


----------



## Sixto

No movement as of 12n ET today.

Will try to keep post#1 up-to-date but trying to take a break from the 24x7 TLE monitoring.


----------



## bakers12

I wonder if we'll have gaps in TLEs from NORAD during the drift, similar to what we've seen with the bigger drifts for D10, D11 and D12.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> No movement as of 12n ET today.
> 
> Will try to keep post#1 up-to-date but trying to take a break from the 24x7 TLE monitoring.


Thanks Sixto.

I suspect TLEs may be inconsistent a bit on any movement...but the ones showing it coming back into place would be the nicest ones, of course.


----------



## LameLefty

bakers12 said:


> I wonder if we'll have gaps in TLEs from NORAD during the drift, similar to what we've seen with the bigger drifts for D10, D11 and D12.


Again, the move is on the order of 100 miles, give or take. We're like to not see ANY during such a small move, or just one, and the next one show it more or less parked at 102.6º. That degree of movement shouldn't take very long at all.


----------



## tyrok3k

When D10 and D12 are parked in their permanent spots, how far apart will they be? Also, why is the next new satellite being called D14 instead of D13?


----------



## HoTat2

tyrok3k said:


> When D10 and D12 are parked in their permanent spots, how far apart will they be? Also, why is the next new satellite being called D14 instead of D13?


If my math is correct D10 at its assigned location of 102.815° minus D12's assigned orbital slot at 102.765° = .05° separation which should translate into .05°/360° x the Clarke belt's orbital circumference of 164, 582 mi. = ~ 23 mi. at geostationary orbits

And D13 was originally scheduled to be a replacement satellite at 110°, but was canceled back in Nov. of 2007, thus "D14" is the official name for the next satellite in line following D12 to be destined for somewhere at the 99° slot.


----------



## GP245

tyrok3k said:


> When D10 and D12 are parked in their permanent spots, how far apart will they be? Also, why is the next new satellite being called D14 instead of D13?


Triskaidekaphobia!


----------



## sbelmont

With the announcement by D* today of 16 more DMA's coming this year in HD and many of the bigger DMA's being skipped again I'm beginning to think that this 'fix' to D10 will need to happen before these DMA's get the locals in HD. Mine being one of them.


----------



## P Smith

GP245 said:


> Triskaidekaphobia!


So what.


----------



## curt8403

tyrok3k said:


> When D10 and D12 are parked in their permanent spots, how far apart will they be? Also, why is the next new satellite being called D14 instead of D13?





GP245 said:


> Triskaidekaphobia!


YES! and for those who do not understand Latin, Fear of the number 13


----------



## P Smith

So what with this pseudo-phobia. For his time on the board ( four years !) the D13 mentioned many times to get the knowledge straight.


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> YES! and for those who do not understand Latin, Fear of the number 13


Um, no. As pointed out in this very thread a few posts up, there was a D13 planned and the FCC had granted authority to construct, but Directv changed their direction with regard to the 110 slot, and the D13 application was withdrawn.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

LameLefty said:


> Um, no. As pointed out in this very thread a few posts up, there was a D13 planned and the FCC had granted authority to construct, but Directv changed their direction with regard to the 110 slot, and the D13 application was withdrawn.


They were making a joke. No one actually believes that D13 is being skipped because some consider 13 and unlucky number.


----------



## raoul5788

SPACEMAKER said:


> They were making a joke. No one actually believes that D13 is being skipped because some consider 13 and unlucky number.


No one believes it? I'm not so sure about that!


----------



## Hutchinshouse

I assume once D10 offloads channels to D12, there will be several days to a week before D10 starts the drift. If I were DIRECTV for a day, I’d make darn sure D12 was firing on all cylinders before moving D10. I wouldn’t be surprised if D10 waited two weeks before starting its drift.


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> I assume once D10 offloads channels to D12, there will be several days to a week before D10 starts the drift. If I were DIRECTV for a day, I'd make darn sure D12 was firing on all cylinders before moving D10. I wouldn't be surprised if D10 waited two weeks before starting its drift.


D10 may have already started the Drift, no update since Friday.

" ... DirecTV intends to move DirecTV 10 to the 102.6° position to conduct the restorative procedure. During this migration, DirecTV 10 will continue to provide service to subscribers. However, *over the course of this migration*, DirecTV intends to transfer all traffic from DirecTV 10 to DirecTV 12 ..."


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> D10 may have already started the Drift, no update since Friday.
> 
> " ... DirecTV intends to move DirecTV 10 to the 102.6° position to conduct the restorative procedure. During this migration, DirecTV 10 will continue to provide service to subscribers. However, *over the course of this migration*, DirecTV intends to transfer all traffic from DirecTV 10 to DirecTV 12 ..."


Would DirecTV have to tilt or slightly change the orientation of the satellite to maintain service levels or is a 2 tenths a degree not enough for our dishes to notice?


----------



## trdrjeff

^yeah that^ 

Can they maintain the correct orientation of the sat for signal delivery while drifting it?


----------



## James Long

2/10ths is negligible - and well within the vision of home satellite dishes.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jefbal99 said:


> Would DirecTV have to tilt or slightly change the orientation of the satellite to maintain service levels or is a 2 tenths a degree not enough for our dishes to notice?





trdrjeff said:


> ^yeah that^
> 
> Can they maintain the correct orientation of the sat for signal delivery while drifting it?


Jefbal99, you're actually asking two questions:
1) To "aim at us, do they need to adjust the satellite?" (trdrjeff's question as well)
2) Will we see D10 at 102.6°?

For #1, yes, they can drift and continue to point the signal toward us. They are always drifting and adjusting the angle within a small box of space. With this larger drift, they just need to adjust to compensate for larger drift.

For #2, yes, it seems we will still see D10, though I expect the signal strengths might be reduced at 102.6°. How much? That is beyond my RF knowledge (and beyond my specific knowledge of the performance of the slimline reflectors.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Our dishes has 6 degree diagram at 0.8 level - what you talking guys ? 
Signal degradation ? 
At at needle's diameter difference ?

No any RF knowledge required - just common sense would be enough .


----------



## tonyd79

P Smith said:


> No any RF knowledge required - just common sense would be enough .


I work with RF engineering everyday. One of my best friends is a terrific RF engineer. I have never heard "common sense" and "RF" used in the same sentence before.


----------



## Sixto

D10 appears to be on the move.

Moved .06 since Friday. Post#1 for details.


----------



## DocBM

How far can it move before one can't get its broadcast signal?



Sixto said:


> D10 appears to be on the move.
> 
> Moved .06 since Friday. Post#1 for details.


----------



## cartrivision

jefbal99 said:


> Would DirecTV have to tilt or slightly change the orientation of the satellite to maintain service levels or is a 2 tenths a degree not enough for our dishes to notice?


The satellite isn't specifically pointing it's signal at you, you are pointing your dish at the satellite. If the satellite moves far enough away from the point where your dish is pointed towards, no amount of tilting the satellite would change the fact that the signal is no longer coming from the point where your dish is pointing to, and tilting the satellite wouldn't allow you to get a signal from that different satellite location without re-pointing your dish at the new location.

For the small distance that D10 is moving, it will still be close enough to the spot where your dish is pointing that you will still get a signal from it... at least that's the implication of DIRECTV's FCC filing which stated that D10 would still be broadcasting to customers during it's drift.


----------



## Groundhog45

Sixto said:


> D10 appears to be on the move.
> 
> Moved .06 since Friday. Post#1 for details.


That's cool. Makes you think they _will_ start moving stuff over tomorrow after they get the first five up and running.  Maybe sooner.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

I'm stoked my home town is one of the first two getting Lils


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> D10 appears to be on the move.


Looks like this must be a powered move. The model shows that the orbit is still geo altitude.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> D10 appears to be on the move.
> 
> Moved .06 since Friday. Post#1 for details.


It doesn't need to move far...so those signal level watchers might want to keep their eyes out for the big Red Button Reboot on D10.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'd think they would have to finish moving all those channels to DIRECTV12 first...


----------



## GoPokes43

harsh said:


> Looks like this must be a powered move. The model shows that the orbit is still geo altitude.


Hopefully it doesn't bump D12.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Looks like this must be a powered move. The model shows that the orbit is still geo altitude.


You still don't understand orbital mechanics.


----------



## harsh

GoPokes43 said:


> Hopefully it doesn't bump D12.


According to the latest TLEs, D10 is already east of D12 and a few miles north.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> You still don't understand orbital mechanics.


Do you have a more insightful explanation?


----------



## sigma1914

harsh said:


> Do you have a more insightful explanation?


...he asked the actual rocket scientist. Too funny. :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

Insightful explanation:

You cannot change anything about an established orbit without some degree of velocity change, either positive or negative. Since GSO is far too high for atmospheric drag to play a role, and solar pressure is too light to have the desired effects in a short enough span of time to be useful, all drifts are initiated and stopped by thrusting events: ergo, EVERY drift is "powered."

The altitude changes involved are relatively small and TLEs are only exactly accurate for the epoch date and time indicated. Multiple propulsive events or longer continuous small ones(*) may not be accurately captured by a TLE "snapshot" of the orbit, especially if the TLEs are only being released once a day or once every 8 - 16 hours.

The spacecraft are only about 150' wide along their velocity axis; they are much "shorter" than they are wide. Add in the small inclination differences in the orbits to the fact the drift for D10 is only about 100 miles and the uncertainties associated with public TLEs during a move, and it's no stretch of the imagination to realize that it only takes a few feet per second change in velocity (and the correspondingly small altitude changes) for spacecraft controllers to move D10 past D12 without giving us major altitude changes in the orbit if they want to do it slowly.

(*) There are multiple XIPS thrusters on the spacecraft, and they have both high-power and low-power modes; we also don't know which ones are being used.


----------



## sportshermit

Will we then get our second round of new channels after amelioration of D10 is complete?


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> *Insightful explanation:*
> 
> Blah, blah, blah...blah blah blah, blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah blah blah.
> 
> Furthermore, blah, blah, blah. Blah blah blah smackdown blah blah.
> 
> Blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah. Blah.
> 
> (*) Blah, blah, blah, blah


Don't understand most of what you explain insightfully, LameLefty, but I do so appreciate it!!


----------



## P Smith

syphix said:


> Originally Posted by LameLefty View Post
> Insightful explanation:
> 
> Blah, blah, blah...blah blah blah, blah blah. Blah blah, blah blah blah blah.
> 
> Furthermore, blah, blah, blah. Blah blah blah smackdown blah blah.
> 
> Blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Blah blah. Blah.
> 
> (*) Blah, blah, blah, blah
> 
> *Don't understand most of what you explain insightfully, LameLefty, but I do so appreciate it!*!


Lemmings count is ... unbelievable. :eek2:
[That quote must be a sign of many of you here. ]


----------



## sigma1914

P Smith said:


> Lemmings count is ... unbelievable. :eek2:
> [That quote must be a sign of many of you here. ]


Are you saying we're lemmings because we listen to an actual rocket scientist rather than some wanna be satellite "experts" around here?


----------



## ryarber

So when will the big RBR in the sky actually take place?


----------



## Tom Robertson

ryarber said:


> So when will the big RBR in the sky actually take place?


Forgive the temerity: Soon. 

And the insulting jocularity: Anon. 

We don't exactly know.

I'm guessing within a week, depending on how quickly they move D10.

And I don't know how long the fix will take. Maybe a day? Maybe 10 minutes? Who knows? (Ok, I'm betting the checklist before the fix takes longer than 10 minutes. And I don't blame them a bit given the $$ involved.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## oldfantom

I was commiserating with the guy who came to fix my dishwasher today. Sometimes I have a weeks worth of paperwork to make a one hour change. As Tom was saying, I would bet the same type of thing holds true in this case. Even if the fix takes 10 minutes, the roll up to that fix could take days. I would bet our only clue as to the timing will come with another Festivus hint from the racer. The interesting things to see will be how long to move, fix and move back. But I also wonder if they will put everything back on D10. My thought would be: why bother? But I am missing about 99% of the big picture. 

All of this really gives the geekiest of the geeks something to watch and report. It also give those of us who are pseudo geeks something cool to watch. This is something where I stand back and enjoy the show.


----------



## georule

oldfantom said:


> I would bet our only clue as to the timing will come with another Festivus hint from the racer.


Well, satrac might get here first, of course. But as I read the May 7 request for STA, and its rather long recitation of the history here, I tend to think the documentation trail will be pretty complete as to when they're going to have a go, and after the testing what the results were. FCC isn't just about regulating movements of communication satellites --they have a legitimate regulatory and public interest stake in knowing what's going on with DirecTVs services and capabilities to offer broader services in more local markets.

D*'s May 7th filing, in my view, recognizes and acknowledges that legitimate interest and thus spends more paras than really necessary for just "hey we want to move our bird for a little bit without impacting any current customers" purposes.

So, I think it would be reasonable to expect that they will continue their communications to the FCC in the same open manner going forward.


----------



## oldfantom

georule said:


> Well, satrac might get here first, of course. But as I read the May 7 request for STA, and its rather long recitation of the history here, I tend to think the documentation trail will be pretty complete as to when they're going to have a go, and after the testing what the results were. FCC isn't just about regulating movements of communication satellites --they have a legitimate regulatory and public interest stake in knowing what's going on with DirecTVs services and capabilities to offer broader services in more local markets.
> 
> D*'s May 7th filing, in my view, recognizes and acknowledges that legitimate interest and thus spends more paras than really necessary for just "hey we want to move our bird for a little bit without impacting any current customers" purposes.
> 
> So, I think it would be reasonable to expect that they will continue their communications to the FCC in the same open manner going forward.


The thing about the filings is that they always come in thirty day chunks. D* may finish in a day, or thirty days or anywhere in between. If they get to thirty and there is no joy, then they refile. The D12 thread even shows us that they may file at the lat minute.

I am not really sure that the FCC cares about offerings as long as D* remains in compliance. As far as I am aware, if D* adds nothing else, they will be OK in the eyes of the FCC. D* may not be competitive, but that is not the concern of the FCC. But, with that said, the current FCC administration does seem to think it has a different mission that the FCC did in the past.


----------



## tkrandall

syphix said:


> Don't understand most of what you explain insightfully, LameLefty, but I do so appreciate it!!


Think of it this way, in order to reach orbit, you have to achieve a fast enough velocity in order to escape the atmosphere and be slung into a orbital path (not necessarily circular, most likely elliptical). If you increase that velocity, your orbit will be higher. Fast enough, and you can escape orbit, like Apollo or Mars missions, etc. So the faster you go, the higher (further out) the orbit. However, as seen from the ground, the faster the satellite goes, and thus higher up it is, the slower it appears it is moving as seen from a point on earth. This is because the higher orbits have a much farther distance to travel in one orbit than does a lower orbit, enought so that it makes it looks the satellite is slowing down as seen from the ground. So, a low earth orbit headed in an easterly direction in line with the equator will appear to travel from west to east. A higher one will move "slower" across the sky. A geosync orbit has reached the height that its speed is such that it's angular velocity is such that it is in sync with the earth's rotational angular velocity, and hence it appears fixed in the sky. Even higher orbit would "travel" east to west in the sky as seen from the ground.


----------



## hyde76

I'm sorry, D10 is very important and I'm thrilled D12 is live but *I totally miss the D12 thread*.

note to self... Must get a life... Stop watching so much TV.


----------



## dennisj00

Nothing says you can't go read it all again!!


----------



## smiddy

dennisj00 said:


> Nothing says you can't go read it all again!!


I hear it reads better the second time through.


----------



## ATARI

smiddy said:


> I hear it reads better the second time through.


LOL!!


----------



## wmb

hyde76 said:


> I'm sorry, D10 is very important and I'm thrilled D12 is live but *I totally miss the D12 thread*.
> 
> note to self... Must get a life... Stop watching so much TV.


Post-Festivus doldrums, eh? Fortunately, there are future festivi coming.

I'm just thinking that later this summer, after D10 and D12 are filled, and MRV installs are completed, this will be a much quiter forum!


----------



## georule

oldfantom said:


> I am not really sure that the FCC cares about offerings as long as D* remains in compliance. As far as I am aware, if D* adds nothing else, they will be OK in the eyes of the FCC. D* may not be competitive, but that is not the concern of the FCC.


"As DIRECTV has previously informed the Commission, that satellite suffered a post-launch anomaly that has limited the capacity available in certain local markets." That is footnoted to a March 2008 letter from DirecTV to the FCC.

If FCC doesn't care, what's that doing in the filing? Why did they bother to tell FCC about it in March 2008?

I'd agree that FCC doesn't care too much about things like channel mix of cable stations, but basic questions like increasing access to broadcast stations (which is what those LiL spots they are trying to ameliorate are about) probably do get some interest from them. At least DirecTV seems to think so, as they've taken the trouble to tell them about it twice now.


----------



## man_rob

Fix it!


----------



## oldfantom

georule said:


> "As DIRECTV has previously informed the Commission, that satellite suffered a post-launch anomaly that has limited the capacity available in certain local markets." That is footnoted to a March 2008 letter from DirecTV to the FCC.
> 
> If FCC doesn't care, what's that doing in the filing? Why did they bother to tell FCC about it in March 2008?
> 
> I'd agree that FCC doesn't care too much about things like channel mix of cable stations, but basic questions like increasing access to broadcast stations (which is what those LiL spots they are trying to ameliorate are about) probably do get some interest from them. At least DirecTV seems to think so, as they've taken the trouble to tell them about it twice now.


There was a law being floated about that said that the sat providers had to provide a lot more locals than they used to provide. I know D* and E* both fought the proposal because of bandwidth. Frankly, and admittedly, selfishly, I am not too worried about carriage of locals in DMAs in the triple digits. I live in Houston. I was under the impression that carriage requirements for locals had not legislatively changed yet. If I am wrong, then absolutely, the FCC cares about the fix.

Otherwise, I read the request as (1) an explanation as to why they would want to move the satellite and (2) a chance to score free public relations. Every FCC filing has had a justification for the move. If you go back and read the documents they don't read like "we want to test our new satellite", they read "we want to test our new satellite the is going to do these super neat things." In other words, the requestor has to provide a good reason for action, but the reasons are often padded because folks like Sixto and (sorry to use the name in the same sentence) Swanni are going to read them.

In the end, it does not really matter, I suppose. But I wonder if the rubber stamp patrol at the FCC even reads the reasoning. I can see them just looking at the actual meat of the request, checking for conflicting traffic and breaking out the red ink pad and stamp. Can anyone point out a denied FCC request for anything concerning a satellite? I don't think D* has ever been denied in the years I have been monitoring this forum.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I would think the FCC cares a lot about moving a satellite to a new, albeit really close, location and performing testing in a somewhat crowded area.

I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me. :grin:

Mike


----------



## James Long

oldfantom said:


> I was under the impression that carriage requirements for locals had not legislatively changed yet.


There is more to it than legislation. The law does not require the provision of locals in any market, there is no legal reward for DirecTV for providing all markets and there is no pending change that will require or reward DirecTV to provide all markets. Other commitments have been made.

When requesting their licenses satellite providers have to give a reason. DirecTV has 46 DBS transponders, why do they need the Ka licenses? In their applications they simply explain the rationale for their request.

A reason is also needed when launching satellites. The provider tells the FCC why they want to launch a new satellite, shows that the satellite will not interfere with existing approved satellites and gets permission to build and launch a satellite within those specifications.

If the satellite doesn't live up to the specifications the FCC needs to know ... and in the case of D10, it didn't and DirecTV did their job at the time the problem was noted and they notified the commission.

Perhaps the claims of how wonderful life will be once a satellite is in service seem inflated or padded, but the better the rationale the more likely the request will be quickly approved. Nothing is approved without a reason. The providers are just being complete in their answers.



> But I wonder if the rubber stamp patrol at the FCC even reads the reasoning.


They CAN deny requests and that is good enough. If you want the cogs of government to move slower annoy those with "rubber stamps".


----------



## georule

oldfantom said:


> There was a law being floated about that said that the sat providers had to provide a lot more locals than they used to provide.


One of the other ways you fight proposals for new regs or laws is by showing you're already doing everything reasonably possible to accomplish their purpose. At any rate, I still think the FCC will get some small degree of warm/fuzzy from more local broadcast service availability from D*.


----------



## GoPokes43

oldfantom said:


> There was a law being floated about that said that the sat providers had to provide a lot more locals than they used to provide. I know D* and E* both fought the proposal because of bandwidth. Frankly, and admittedly, selfishly, I am not too worried about carriage of locals in DMAs in the triple digits. I live in Houston. I was under the impression that carriage requirements for locals had not legislatively changed yet. If I am wrong, then absolutely, the FCC cares about the fix.
> 
> Otherwise, I read the request as (1) an explanation as to why they would want to move the satellite and (2) a chance to score free public relations. Every FCC filing has had a justification for the move. If you go back and read the documents they don't read like "we want to test our new satellite", they read "we want to test our new satellite the is going to do these super neat things." In other words, the requestor has to provide a good reason for action, but the reasons are often padded because folks like Sixto and (sorry to use the name in the same sentence) Swanni are going to read them.
> 
> In the end, it does not really matter, I suppose. But I wonder if the rubber stamp patrol at the FCC even reads the reasoning. I can see them just looking at the actual meat of the request, checking for conflicting traffic and breaking out the red ink pad and stamp. *Can anyone point out a denied FCC request for anything concerning a satellite? I don't think D* has ever been denied in the years I have been monitoring this forum.*


I don't deal with the satellite filings, but in my experience with public government filings, the process usually involves informal discussions, lots of back-and-forth on language and then the "official" request and approvals are actually filed. Neither side wants the negotiations to occur in a public forum so they agree before that point. Accordingly, it would be highly unlikely to see a denial.


----------



## James Long

GoPokes43 said:


> I don't deal with the satellite filings, but in my experience with public government filings, the process usually involves informal discussions, lots of back-and-forth on language and then the "official" request and approvals are actually filed. Neither side wants the negotiations to occur in a public forum so they agree before that point. Accordingly, it would be highly unlikely to see a denial.


The filing for D10's amelioration is a good example ... the move is filed and approved but the actual amelioration process STA request has not been seen. Why? Because (as reported in the move STA request) the details between satellite operators were still being worked out.

File something before working out the details and you'll see more petitions to deny than agreement. Not having any petitions against a request helps make the decision to approve the request easier.


----------



## gregjones

GoPokes43 said:


> I don't deal with the satellite filings, but in my experience with public government filings, the process usually involves informal discussions, lots of back-and-forth on language and then the "official" request and approvals are actually filed. Neither side wants the negotiations to occur in a public forum so they agree before that point. Accordingly, it would be highly unlikely to see a denial.


Yes, these filings are somewhat like marriage proposals. By the time you ask, you should already know the answer. There is no point in formally asking if you feel confident that there is a high likelihood of a negative response.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> The filing for D10's amelioration is a good example ... the move is filed and approved but the actual amelioration process STA request has not been seen. Why? Because (as reported in the move STA request) the details between satellite operators were still being worked out.


Details between WHAT satellite operators? Who else is providing Ka service at 103?


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> Details between WHAT satellite operators? Who else is providing Ka service at 103?


Please see page 2 of the letter detailing the STA request in post #1.
http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158

"DIRECTV will also coordinate its operations during drift with all other potentially affected operators to insure that no harmful interference results."

"DIRECTV is currently in the process of finalizing coordination arrangements for the procedure to be performed at 102.6° W.L., and will seek a separate STA once that coordination has been completed."


----------



## wmb

LameLefty said:


> Details between WHAT satellite operators? Who else is providing Ka service at 103?


According to this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_satellites_in_geosynchronous_orbit#Western_Hemisphere SES Americom has sats at 101, 103 and 105. I guess they must talk about control signals and the like. Of course, not sure the list is exhaustive, either.


----------



## Sixto

There were a few people with issues with D12 TP19.

If there's anyone with 0 on D12/TP19, please post if you can get the new channels.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> The spacecraft are only about 150' wide along their velocity axis; they are much "shorter" than they are wide.


The size of the satellite has nothing to do with anything as you've discounted solar pressure. Orbital mechanics concerns itself with the center of mass of the satellite and that's a single point. "Velocity axis" wouldn't seem to apply to satellites themselves but rather to the gyros within the satellites that have disparate axes.

Isn't the separation closer to 2*Pi*26353*.165/360=76 miles?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

man_rob said:


> Fix it!


Wow where have you been hiding at, I've missed that avatar. :lol:


----------



## Wine Lover

Sixto said:


> There were a few people with issues with D12 TP19.
> 
> If there's anyone with 0 on D12/TP19, please post if you can get the new channels.


In Madison WI. When the sat. first lit up, I had a 0 on D12/TP19-all other readings in the high 70's-low 80's. Now have a 76 on D12/TP19-all other readings in the 90's. I can get all the new channels I'm supposed to.


----------



## HoTat2

James Long said:


> Please see page 2 of the letter detailing the STA request in post #1.
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158
> 
> "DIRECTV will also coordinate its operations during drift with all other potentially affected operators to insure that no harmful interference results."
> 
> "DIRECTV is currently in the process of finalizing coordination arrangements for the procedure to be performed at 102.6° W.L., and will seek a separate STA once that coordination has been completed."





wmb said:


> According to this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_satellites_in_geosynchronous_orbit#Western_Hemisphere SES Americom has sats at 101, 103 and 105. I guess they must talk about control signals and the like. Of course, not sure the list is exhaustive, either.


But unless this coordination is more about avoiding a physical collision with other satellites or some other during D10's drift, I really see this mention of coordinating with;

*" ... potentially affected operators to insure that no harmful interference results."*

to be just a standard in the formal wording of these STAs because realistically what kind of Ka-band RF interference can there potentially be around 103 W.L. since DirecTV is the only operator there which uses that band for both programming and TT&C transmissions?


----------



## smiddy

Wine Lover said:


> In Madison WI. When the sat. first lit up, I had a 0 on D12/TP19-all other readings in the high 70's-low 80's. Now have a 76 on D12/TP19-all other readings in the 90's. I can get all the new channels I'm supposed to.


Hi, welcome to DBSTalk.com...nice 1st post!


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> But unless this coordination is more about avoiding a physical collision with other satellites or some other during D10's drift, I really see this mention of coordinating with;
> 
> *" ... potentially affected operators to insure that no harmful interference results."*
> 
> to be just a standard in the formal wording of these STAs because realistically what kind of Ka-band RF interference can there potentially be around 103 W.L. since DirecTV is the only operator there which uses that band for both programming and TT&C transmissions?


Exactly. It's what lawyers call "boilerplate language" that is used routinely because it's the same language that's used in the applicable CFR's.


----------



## georule

So what's the status on moving channels off D10 to D12? Has this been ongoing a bit at a time, or is it going to be a one fell swoop process?


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> So what's the status on moving channels off D10 to D12? Has this been ongoing a bit at a time, or is it going to be a one fell swoop process?


No nationals moved yet.

The nationals are probably easy compared to the 400 LiLs (60+ network numbers in gct map) that need to be moved.


----------



## georule

Well, unless the mods have some inside dope (and they might), I think folks should be careful about the "June" messaging I've been seeing on threads here re further new HD. This still feels like July is in play to me to get it all done and further new HD lit up. 

I don't want to be Debbie Downer here --I'd just like to avoid the rash of disappointed and accusatory posts I see coming on July 1.


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Well, unless the mods have some inside dope (and they might), I think folks should be careful about the "June" messaging I've been seeing on threads here re further new HD. This still feels like July is in play to me to get it all done and further new HD lit up.
> 
> I don't want to be Debbie Downer here --I'd just like to avoid the rash of disappointed and accusatory posts I see coming on July 1.


Very possible. We all know that the "June" target came from SR, and we all know that anything can change, especially since nothing has moved yet and the corrective action has not been attempted yet.

It's always nice to know the target, and we adjust expectations as appropriate.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> especially since nothing has moved yet and the corrective action has not been *attempted yet*.


Please use proper English, "*ameliorated yet*". :lol:


----------



## georule

Maybe they still have some spare capacity on D12 to light up a second smallish tranche in June even if D10 goes a bit longer, but seems to be going well at that point. I don't think SR promised the other 24 for June (not including GolTV which doesn't begin broadcasting until August).


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Maybe they still have some spare capacity on D12 to light up a second smallish tranche in June even if D10 goes a bit longer, but seems to be going well at that point. I don't think SR promised the other 24 for June (not including GolTV which doesn't begin broadcasting until August).


Targets (subject to change): http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2459670

All discussion in the other thread.


----------



## syphix

Remember: D12 -- even after taking D10's HD load and after this week's 5 new channels -- still has room for 5 _more_ HD channels...


----------



## MrSmartyA

...with one of those will probably be ESPN 3D.


----------



## Sixto

MrSmartyA said:


> ...with one of those will probably be ESPN 3D.


That's been on D10/TP14: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2464555


----------



## Sixto

Just noticed this in another thread, and figured would post here as D10 content is moving to D12.

D10 CONUS is Ka-Lo, D12 CONUS is Ka-Hi.

If you get a much higher signal on 103 (cb) then 103 (ca), please check to see if you have any coax passthru connector that doesn't properly pass Ka-Hi (above 1650MHz), which for the past many months has only been Spaceway-2 (which most people don't need).

DirecTV approved splitters and in-line connectors are fine, but surge protectors and other non-standard items might not be.


----------



## Piratefan98

Sixto said:


> Just noticed this in another thread, and figured would post here as D10 content is moving to D12.
> 
> D10 CONUS is Ka-Lo, D12 CONUS is Ka-Hi.
> 
> If you get a much higher signal on 103 (cb) then 103 (ca), please check to see if you have any coax passthru connector that doesn't properly pass Ka-Hi (above 1650MHz), which for the past many months has only been Spaceway-2 (which most people don't need).
> 
> DirecTV approved splitters and in-line connectors are fine, but surge protectors and other non-standard items might not be.


Thanks Sixto. Not just for this, but for all you do here.

Jeff


----------



## georule

The interesting thing about the $2 word "ameliorated" instead of the nickel word "fixed", is there is no reason to use "ameliorated" unless you're allowing for the possibility that it gets "better" but not all the way to 100% of spec. Could be they are being cautious --or it could be they have reason to think 100% of spec may not be doable even if whatever they do to it works pretty well. Given they've almost certainly been thinking about D10's issues and what to do about them for a couple years now, I tend towards the latter interpretation.

Hard to say how much practical difference that makes, however, without more details. Could be not every BSS comes back to full spec but some do. Could be they all get "better" to the same degree, but none is all the way to spec (this strikes me as the more likely scenario). But then it also occurs to me it could be possible (even likely) that there is some threshold level where those spots aren't all the way to spec from a technical perspective, but functionally on the user end there is no practical difference --as an example, you don't need 100 signal strength to get a perfect picture on the user end.


----------



## Standtall29

Will D put he channels back on D10 Once it is up and fully working. Because i can get D10 fine in the 90s. But cant pick up D12. Don't Care about the New hd just want to know if they will put it all back?


----------



## 66stang351

Standtall29 said:


> Will D put he channels back on D10 Once it is up and fully working. Because i can get D10 fine in the 90s. But cant pick up D12. Don't Care about the New hd just want to know if they will put it all back?


Nobody knows what they plan to do. My WAG at it would be to load balance. In that case some of it would go back, but not all. However, you should be able to get D12 if you have strong signals for D10. If you don't you have an issue that needs to get fixed.


----------



## Standtall29

Thanks much i will check it out.


----------



## DogLover

georule said:


> The interesting thing about the $2 word "ameliorated" instead of the nickel word "fixed", is there is no reason to use "ameliorated" unless you're allowing for the possibility that it gets "better" but not all the way to 100% of spec. Could be they are being cautious --or it could be they have reason to think 100% of spec may not be doable even if whatever they do to it works pretty well. Given they've almost certainly been thinking about D10's issues and what to do about them for a couple years now, I tend towards the latter interpretation.
> 
> Hard to say how much practical difference that makes, however, without more details. Could be not every BSS comes back to full spec but some do. Could be they all get "better" to the same degree, but none is all the way to spec (this strikes me as the more likely scenario). But then it also occurs to me it could be possible (even likely) that there is some threshold level where those spots aren't all the way to spec from a technical perspective, but functionally on the user end there is no practical difference --as an example, you don't need 100 signal strength to get a perfect picture on the user end.


One problem with the nickel word "fixed" is that implies something is "broken". That's not the best public relations move. And, the $1 word "improved" seems to preclude the possibility that things could be "fixed" to 100% of spec. Then again, the writer could just be showboating by using the term ameliorated.


----------



## QuickDrop

DogLover said:


> One problem with the nickel word "fixed" is that implies something is "broken". That's not the best public relations move. And, the $1 word "improved" seems to preclude the possibility that things could be "fixed" to 100% of spec. Then again, the writer could just be showboating by using the term ameliorated.


Agreed, D*pretty much played down the D10 spotbeam problem, essentially saying it didn't effect any of their local plans. They spun it then and they are spinning it now. That's the job of public relations.

It's a shame one can no longer quote from this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98837

It's funny to read moderators say "See, there's nothing wrong with D10." Or posters thanking moderators for not reporting (unlike other sites) on D10 problems before an official statement was made by the company.


----------



## harsh

66stang351 said:


> Nobody knows what they plan to do. My WAG at it would be to load balance. In that case some of it would go back, but not all. However, you should be able to get D12 if you have strong signals for D10. If you don't you have an issue that needs to get fixed.


Until something changes, it still appears that the plan is for D10 spots to be a backup to D12 spots.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> Until something changes, it still appears that the plan is for D10 spots to be a backup to D12 spots.


I totally disagree.. I fully expect them to use them to some degree.... Your simply stating that casue they haven't made an announcement. They haven't even announced they are trying to fix d10.. Its only an fcc document, not a press release as I recall....

What they will do may depend on how it all goes...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

harsh said:


> Until something changes, it still appears that the plan is for D10 spots to be a backup to D12 spots.


Based on what?

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> Based on what?
> 
> Mike


You beat me to ask that same question.

There is no information I've seen anywhere as to their plans on using D10.


----------



## geaux tigers

amelioration - the act of relieving ills and changing for the better 
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


----------



## doabbs

Any update as to whether or not the drift was completed? I've seen some mentions of load shifting from D10 to D12 but no updates on the location since 5/18.


----------



## Sixto

doabbs said:


> Any update as to whether or not the drift was completed? I've seen some mentions of load shifting from D10 to D12 but no updates on the location since 5/18.


No location update since Tuesday.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> No location update since Tuesday.


Thanks Sixto.

Just as anticipated...reports during the "move and fix" phase will be sparse. Hopefully, we'll hear something once the movement back starts.

Appreciate all your time and efforts keeping us informated.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> No location update since Tuesday.


Thanks Sixto.

Just as anticipated...reports during the "move and fix" phase will be sparse. Hopefully, we'll hear something once the movement back starts.

Appreciate all your time and efforts keeping us informed.


----------



## Carl Spock

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Just as anticipated...reports during the "move and fix" phase will be sparse.


You mean we'll get less information than when D12 was parked at 76°?

Lord, help us all.

I'm finding a hole to hide in for the next month.


----------



## mobandit

Carl Spock said:


> You mean we'll get less information than when D12 was parked at 76°?
> 
> Lord, help us all.
> 
> I'm finding a hole to hide in for the next month.


Yeah, but look at how well that all turned out...less information about D10 may mean it turns out even better!!!!


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> No location update since Tuesday.


Time to make up another milk carton?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> Time to make up another milk carton?


Naaahhh....we know where it is....just not much more happening than DirecTV likely doing whatever corrective measures they're taking, and then testing them.

Once the testing is done....we'll likely see that little return trip.


----------



## ATARI

geaux tigers said:


> amelioration - the act of relieving ills and changing for the better
> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


works for me


----------



## Sixto

At 102.6°! ("DirecTV intends to move DirecTV 10 to the 102.6° position to conduct the restorative procedure")



Code:


Name			DirecTV-10
NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		05-24-2010 09:14:05
Orbit # at Epoch	1056
Inclination		0.025
RA of A. Node		113.510
Eccentricity		0.0000476
Argument of Perigee	217.793
Revs per day		1.00276924
Period			23h 56m 01s (1436.2 min)
Semi-major axis		42 163 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 783 x 35 787 km
Element number / age	493 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.5697° W
Lat			0.0002° S
Alt (km)		35 783.460

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
493 05-24 09:14 35,783 x 35,787      4 102.5697°W  0.0002°S  0.025°
492 05-18 08:29 35,785 x 35,787      2 102.7430°W  0.0121°N  0.042°
491 05-14 16:13 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8013°W  0.0214°S  0.048°
490 05-13 13:13 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8021°W  0.0185°S  0.045°
489 05-13 03:47 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8089°W  0.0208°N  0.047°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## rey_1178

sweet. thanks for the info sixto


----------



## Dolly

:hurah: Now I hope the corrective action will work


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> At 102.6°! ("DirecTV intends to move DirecTV 10 to the 102.6° position to conduct the restorative procedure")


Progress!


----------



## Skyboss

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Progress!


Que my daily check of this thread for status. Man I'm wasting a lot of time.... :grin:


----------



## inkahauts

Wonder if we are going to see a mass exodus of channels this wed morning?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

inkahauts said:


> Wonder if we are going to see a mass exodus of channels this wed morning?


Nope.

But you may see more new ones in a couple of weeks down the road.


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nope.
> 
> But you may see more new ones in a couple of weeks down the road.


Festivus in June!!


----------



## harsh

inkahauts said:


> Wonder if we are going to see a mass exodus of channels this wed morning?


I'd look for FCC approval of the "restorative procedure" before any major moves are made.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nope.
> 
> But you may see more new ones in a *couple *of weeks down the road.


couple = 2

(we're holding you to that) :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hutchinshouse said:


> couple = 2
> 
> (we're holding you to that) :lol:


Go ahead...make my day. 

Besides...now that you have your Travel Channel HD...you have no time for anything else.


----------



## Tom_S

Anybody have any idea what they are going to attempt?


----------



## Alan Gordon

harsh said:


> I'd look for FCC approval of the "restorative procedure" before any major moves are made.


I wonder if we'll see any today... 

~Alan


----------



## trdrjeff

Tom_S said:


> Anybody have any idea what they are going to attempt?


----------



## bobnielsen

harsh said:


> I'd look for FCC approval of the "restorative procedure" before any major moves are made.


Since we don't know the nature of the amelioration, we don't know if they even need approval. Possibly it may fit within the scope of their current license.

Or not.


----------



## James Long

bobnielsen said:


> Since we don't know the nature of the amelioration, we don't know if they even need approval. Possibly it may fit within the scope of their current license.
> 
> Or not.


I vote "not" since it was _specifically_ noted in the STA for the move to 102.6 that a STA request would be forthcoming for the amelioration. Personally I'm looking forward to reading that STA request ... but somehow I doubt that there will be any deep details. We saw no STA for the amelioration test on D12 when it was at 76 - so it can't be too wild of a process (D12's fitting under it's testing STA). But if DirecTV says they will request a STA for the next step for D10 I'll take their word for it.


----------



## hilmar2k

inkahauts said:


> Wonder if we are going to see a mass exodus of channels this wed morning?


No, we don't want an exodus. I'm rooting for an influx.


----------



## cartrivision

Tom_S said:


> Anybody have any idea what they are going to attempt?
> 
> 
> 
> trdrjeff said:
Click to expand...

It's got to be something much different from that. You don't usually carry your computer into a different room just to reboot it.


----------



## oldfantom

Tom_S said:


> Anybody have any idea what they are going to attempt?


Is there a chance that we will ever know? Do those with contacts have any sense of the likelihood? My gut says we will never really know. But as large as my gut is, it really has a mixed record on predictions.


----------



## Richierich

Tom_S said:


> Anybody have any idea what they are going to attempt?


Yes, they are going to Remove the Access Card and then Plug it back in and then do a Red Button Reset!!! :lol:


----------



## curt8403

richierich said:


> Yes, they are going to Remove the Access Card and then Plug it back in and then do a Red Button Reset!!! :lol:


 No, they are planning to do a red button reset, then enter the code to force a software download.


----------



## GP245

richierich said:


> Yes, they are going to Remove the Access Card and then Plug it back in and then do a Red Button Reset!!! :lol:


This precludes a technician on-site call?


----------



## Richierich

curt8403 said:


> No, they are planning to do a red button reset, then enter the code to force a software download.


Ah Yes That Makes More Sense!!! :lol:


----------



## Tom_S

OK... OK... I get it.. Please stop the sarcasm!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK, ha ha, let's get a little more back to topic. Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

FCC Filing (5/25/2010):"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to repeat an abbreviated set of in-orbit tests on the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6 WL location"

Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Details: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819358​


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> FCC Filing (5/25/2010):
> "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to repeat an abbreviated set of in-orbit tests on the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6 WL location"
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819358​


that is cool, Really cool


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> FCC Filing (5/25/2010):"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to repeat an abbreviated set of in-orbit tests on the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6 WL location"
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819358​


Looks like now that D10 is positioned to start...as soon as they get approval on this, they'll start their efforts to ramp up D10 to full power, test, and then return to the original position.

Good news....reading the details was also interesting.


----------



## Alan Gordon

harsh said:


> I'd look for FCC approval of the "restorative procedure" before any major moves are made.





Alan Gordon said:


> I wonder if we'll see any today...





Sixto said:


> FCC Filing (5/25/2010):"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to repeat an abbreviated set of in-orbit tests on the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6 WL location"​


I had a feeling this would happen today... 

~Alan<~~~~~~~Who needs to go out and buy a Lotto ticket!


----------



## trdrjeff

Great News!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Bring it! errr... Fix it!


----------



## Sixto

The timing of this STA is actually very nice, if all goes as planned.

This STA is for the testing after the amelioration, so technically they could offload D10 and perform the corrective action prior to 6/2, then test for a few days, and move it back.

This would be much sooner then I would have ever thought, but then maybe this is just wishful thinking.

Either way, the dates are nice.


----------



## BudShark

Thanks for keeping the updates coming Sixto. It all sounds very nice - especially since I am in Florida and not subject to the excessive 7db signal levels they are about to annhilate Colorado and surrounding areas with! :lol:


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> The timing of this STA is actually very nice, if all goes as planned.
> 
> This STA is for the testing after the amelioration, so technically they could offload D10 and perform the corrective action prior to 6/2, then test for a few days, and move it back.
> 
> This would be much sooner then I would have ever thought, but then maybe this is just wishful thinking.
> 
> Either way, the dates are nice.


I was always expecting a "quick fix"... though now that I've said it, I'll probably be wrong...

~Alan<~~~~~~~Who's now trying to find some wood to knock on...


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> I was always expecting a "quick fix"... though now that I've said it, I'll probably be wrong...
> 
> ~Alan<~~~~~~~Who's now trying to find some wood to knock on...


It just seemed like moving 400 LiL and 60+ spots might take a while.


----------



## curt8403

BudShark said:


> Thanks for keeping the updates coming Sixto. It all sounds very nice - especially since I am in Florida and not subject to the excessive 7db signal levels they are about to annhilate Colorado and surrounding areas with! :lol:


Oh, I do so hope that they miss Castlerock


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> The timing of this STA is actually very nice, if all goes as planned.
> 
> This STA is for the testing after the amelioration, so technically they could offload D10 and perform the corrective action prior to 6/2, then test for a few days, and move it back.
> 
> This would be much sooner then I would have ever thought, but then maybe this is just wishful thinking.
> 
> Either way, the dates are nice.


Now that's my kind of news!


----------



## Hdhead

Anyone have an educated guess from this filing as to what they are actually doing to repair D10?


----------



## Matt9876

Hdhead said:


> Anyone have an educated guess from this filing as to what they are actually doing to repair D10?


This is just an educated guess!

Part of the spot beam array failed to deploy properly the first time around,I suspect they are going to spin the bird to centrifugally deploy the array.

Sort of like flicking your wrist to deploy a knife blade.They may also re run the sequence that released the arrays in the first place.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> It just seemed like moving 400 LiL and 60+ spots might take a while.


I'm honestly not educated enough to even begin to imagine the work that might involve... but I felt (from some of the facts out there) that DirecTV didn't expect it to take long... which was good enough for me.

~Alan


----------



## Matt9876

"I'm honestly not educated enough to even begin to imagine the work that might involve... but I felt (from some of the facts out there) that DirecTV didn't expect it to take long... which was good enough for me.

~Alan"






Once the new bird is correctly parked It's really not much harder than a copy and paste from the D10 command page.


----------



## oldfantom

I guess we could call them and ask....


----------



## Alan Gordon

oldfantom said:


> I guess we could call them and ask....


I guess I'm not the only one to have added Castle Rock, CO to my speed dial, huh?!  :lol: 

~Alan


----------



## James Long

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Good news....reading the details was also interesting.


Very nice. Looks like they are turning it up to "11".


----------



## Jon J

Matt9876 said:


> This is just an educated guess!
> 
> Part of the spot beam array failed to deploy properly the first time around,I suspect they are going to spin the bird to centrifugally deploy the array.
> 
> Sort of like flicking your wrist to deploy a knife blade.They may also re run the sequence that released the arrays in the first place.


This maneuver would be something to see.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> I'd look for FCC approval of the "restorative procedure" before any major moves are made.


The FCC has nothing to do with when they move channels from one sat to the other.. They can do that whenever they want, regardless of any filings...


----------



## inkahauts

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nope.
> 
> But you may see more new ones in a couple of weeks down the road.


OK, I said exodus people! I mean moving all the channels off of d10 to d12... !rolling.. I know new stuff ain't coming till after d10 is back and working normally...


----------



## Groundhog45

Sixto said:


> FCC Filing (5/25/2010):"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to repeat an abbreviated set of in-orbit tests on the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6 WL location"​




This is great news. I wish they had a camera on one of the other sats so we could watch if they spin it around. :lol: Here's hoping all goes as expected.​


----------



## inkahauts

Good grief, they are going to fry us ALL!!!!!!!!


----------



## LameLefty

Matt9876 said:


> This is just an educated guess!
> 
> Part of the spot beam array failed to deploy properly the first time around,I suspect they are going to spin the bird to centrifugally deploy the array.
> 
> Sort of like flicking your wrist to deploy a knife blade.They may also re run the sequence that released the arrays in the first place.


Based on some crumbs dropped by some well-placed little birds, I don't believe that's the nature of the problem, nor the nature of the intended solution.


----------



## gphvid

LameLefty said:


> Based on some crumbs dropped by some well-placed little birds, I don't believe that's the nature of the problem, nor the nature of the intended solution.


DO we know just what the nature of the problem is?


----------



## LameLefty

gphvid said:


> DO we know just what the nature of the problem is?


"We" don't.


----------



## mattgwyther

LameLefty said:


> "We" don't.


Does someone in the forum with a Bill Murray avatar know?


----------



## Food Lion Man

Since D10 has arrived at it's testing position, does that explain why my receiver is showing 70's and 80's and some transponders (103 cb) when normally it reads in the 90?

Thanks.


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> FCC Filing (5/25/2010):"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for 30 days to repeat an abbreviated set of in-orbit tests on the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6 WL location"
> 
> Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> Details: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819358​


NICE. I'm feeling ever so much better about June availability for those other 24 channels now. . . .

(even tho the STA goes into July. At least it has moved up 12 days from the last indication we had.)


----------



## mattgwyther

Food Lion Man said:


> Since D10 has arrived at it's testing position, does that explain why my receiver is showing 70's and 80's and some transponders (103 cb) when normally it reads in the 90?
> 
> Thanks.


Yes. D10 is still broadcasting from a slightly different position.


----------



## tonyd79

My reading of the latest document makes me wonder if they moved D10 to help with interference with AMC15, moving it as much as they could and keep it operational. They specifically mention it as the only possible interference.


----------



## tonyd79

inkahauts said:


> Good grief, they are going to fry us ALL!!!!!!!!


direct-V (for Visitors)


----------



## Tibs

Im curious, the DMAs who are complaining about being passed over, are they in these spots? Just curious if this answers why some people didnt get LILS.


----------



## kevinwmsn

D10 could cause a local blackout and they will get a FlashForward. :lol: But seriously, are the areas that will get inteference are those areas that D10 had trouble getting spots too? I guess D* can transfer a couple of hundred stations to another satellite relatively easily if they can do it by June 2.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

oldfantom said:


> I guess we could call them and ask....


I noticed that too.


----------



## MrDad0330

I would imagine we will see all signals go to zero when this all starts..correct?


----------



## Sixto

MrDad0330 said:


> I would imagine we will see all signals go to zero when this all starts..correct?


Yes.


----------



## Lt Disher

When I first read the document, I thought that the request for permission to exceed the normal levels was part of the amelioration. I thought maybe that giving it a little extra juice might jump start the areas of the bird that were not working. I see that this is not the case. The permission is just to test whether the amelioration worked.

I have a question for Sixto. When a bird is doing its normal testing, like D12 did over the past few months, do they typically exceed the approved levels of signal strength? If this testing is not the normal testing of signals, why wouldn't normal testing be enough to see if the fix worked? I'n thinking this may give the scientists among us a clue as to what is wrong with D11.


----------



## Sixto

Lt Disher said:


> When I first read the document, I thought that the request for permission to exceed the normal levels was part of the amelioration. I thought maybe that giving it a little extra juice might jump start the areas of the bird that were not working. I see that this is not the case. The permission is just to test whether the amelioration worked.
> 
> I have a question for Sixto. When a bird is doing its normal testing, like D12 did over the past few months, do they typically exceed the approved levels of signal strength? If this testing is not the normal testing of signals, why wouldn't normal testing be enough to see if the fix worked? I'n thinking this may give the scientists among us a clue as to what is wrong with D11.


D12 had similar "exceed" language for testing:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799125​


----------



## Standtall29

All Roads Lead To D12, Directv As start moving HD from D10 To D12 this morning Good for people that can pick D12 up.


----------



## mobandit

Standtall29 said:


> All Roads Lead To D12, Directv As start moving HD from D10 To D12 this morning Good for people that can pick D12 up.


Uh...who can't "pick up" D12? It's at 103....


----------



## Sixto

All of the D10 national HD channels are now on D12:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2473950#post2473950​


----------



## mattsarz

Is there a thread that details the problems with the D10 transponders with respect to locals? Specifically which transponders it was. I've had off and on problems with 103 and my locals since mid-March and those seem to have dramatically cleared up over the past couple weeks. I would completely lose signal from the satellite for 30-50 minutes at a time, then it would slowly come back.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Sixto said:


> All of the D10 national HD channels are now on D12:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2473950#post2473950​


Uh, So if someone had a dish tweak scheduled for today between uh, noon and 4 pm, uh should one tell the tech to tweak 103ca or 103cb? Not saying I do or anything, just wondering.


----------



## Sixto

I WANT MORE said:


> Uh, So if someone had a dish tweak scheduled for today between uh, noon and 4 pm, uh should one tell the tech to tweak 103ca or 103cb? Not saying I do or anything, just wondering.


You need both in the long run, but today all is on D12. And don't forget 101 and 99. 

Need them all, and want them nicely aligned!

Worth as much time as it takes, because that alignment may stay that way 24x7x365 for years.


----------



## georule

I WANT MORE said:


> Uh, So if someone had a dish tweak scheduled for today between uh, noon and 4 pm, uh should one tell the tech to tweak 103ca or 103cb? Not saying I do or anything, just wondering.


Well, since 103cb isn't where it is going to be a month from now, peaking it this afternoon would not seem to be the best idea. Not disastrous or anything --just not optimum. I'd go for 103ca in the confidence that it will produce better long-term results for 103cb than peaking 103cb today would.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Sixto said:


> You need both in the long run, but today all is on D12. And don't forget 101 and 99.
> 
> Need them all, and want them nicely aligned!
> 
> Worth as much time as it takes, because that alignment may stay that way 24x7x365 for years.


Thanks Sixto.
103cb 1-8 79 76 81 77 76 74 80 77
9-16 79 76 83 79 79 78 NA NA
103ca 9-16 85 82 79 77 84 83 76 76
17-24 81 82 79 78 83 82 81 76

We'll see what the "after" looks like


----------



## I WANT MORE

georule said:


> Well, since 103cb isn't where it is going to be a month from now, peaking it this afternoon would not seem to be the best idea.


Too late. Scheduled. Free w/ protection plan. Also just activated an HR24 last night.


----------



## Sixto

I WANT MORE said:


> Thanks Sixto.
> 103cb 1-8 79 76 81 77 76 74 80 77
> 9-16 79 76 83 79 79 78 NA NA
> 103ca 9-16 85 82 79 77 84 83 76 76
> 17-24 81 82 79 78 83 82 81 76
> 
> We'll see what the "after" looks like


Keep them there until 99, 101, and 103 look perfect (for you).

May be worth extra milk, cookies, whatever it takes.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Sixto said:


> Keep them there until 99, 101, and 103 look perfect (for you).
> 
> May be worth extra milk, cookies, whatever it takes.


Will do. If I get my usual tech, whom I know personally, he'll so a good job. Thanks again.


----------



## georule

Btw, does anyone have any before/after signal strength screenies of 103cb pre and post move? Just curious what impact, if any, the move had. I didn't keep a "before". Looking at the "after", I don't think I'm prepared to swear it knocked my signal strength down at all. If it did, not more than a point or two, and not on all transponders.

I do have a great deal more variability on my 103cb transponders signal strength than on 103ca (which is a very montonous 95/96 across the board except for tp19 which is 85). But that was true before the move as well.


----------



## Jon J

I have mid to high 90s on every satellite across the arc *except* 103 which is low 80s on conus. I don't understand the wide difference on 103 when all the others seem peaked properly.

Thoughts?


----------



## DirectMan

When might we expect the carrier signal on D10 Conus to be turned off and the spotbeam transmissions to be shifted to D12? Wait until next Wednesday?


----------



## slimoli

mobandit said:


> Uh...who can't "pick up" D12? It's at 103....


I can but there is a significant difference on signal levels between 103 (cb) (all high 90s) and ca ( from 90 to 53). I will wait until everything is settled to call my MDU company for a new alignement.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> I can but there is a significant difference on signal levels between 103 (cb) (all high 90s) and ca ( from 90 to 53). I will wait until everything is settled to call my MDU company for a new alignement.


For those with a significant difference between D10 and D12, as we've seen, the issue may not be alignment. LNB, Non DirecTV splitter ...


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> For those with a significant difference between D10 and D12, as we've seen, the issue may not be alignment. LNB, Non DirecTV splitter ...


Thanks Sixto. I just find strange the fact that all my transponders on all other satellites are over 90. All my splitters are from Directv and I have a dedicated SWIM from my MDU company (MFH2 system). I will call them when D10 is fixed and stay on its final position.
A good thing about living in a MDU building is that when something is wrong there are a bunch of other people who is also affected and chances are somebody else can also call them.


----------



## sb999

DirectMan said:


> If you live in St George UT zip 84791 I have some good news for you - you will get 6 HD SLC locals as soon as D12 is switched on.


Sadly, this does not seem to be the case. It's (D12) been on a couple of weeks now and we still aren't getting a signal here in St. George as far as I can tell. Thanks for getting my hopes up!


----------



## Sixto

DirectMan said:


> When might we expect the carrier signal on D10 Conus to be turned off and the spotbeam transmissions to be shifted to D12? Wait until next Wednesday?


Post #1 and last few pages is what we know.


----------



## DirectMan

sb999 said:


> Sadly, this does not seem to be the case. It's (D12) been on a couple of weeks now and we still aren't getting a signal here in St. George as far as I can tell. Thanks for getting my hopes up!


My belief is that locals have not yet been transferred to D12. I believe they will be by next Wednesday June 2.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I WANT MORE said:


> Thanks Sixto.
> 103cb 1-8 79 76 81 77 76 74 80 77
> 9-16 79 76 83 79 79 78 NA NA
> 103ca 9-16 85 82 79 77 84 83 76 76
> 17-24 81 82 79 78 83 82 81 76
> 
> We'll see what the "after" looks like


103cb 1-8 91 88 91 88 86 85 89 86
9-16 89 86 92 89 89 89 NA NA

103ca 9-16 95 95 91 89 94 95 87 88
17-24 92 95 90 93 95 95 94 92

101 94 96 96 0 95 99 95 98
95 96 96 61 95 99 95 95
95 0 96 72 95 99 95 99
 95 0 96 0 96 97 93 99

99 93 93 89 87 91 91 84 84
92 94 85 85 93 84 NA NA

Much improved but not perfect. Will have them back when everything is ameliorated, in it's place and settled.


----------



## doctor j

I'll try to check LIL PID's in next 24 hours and report

Doctor j


----------



## Matt9876

LameLefty said:


> Based on some crumbs dropped by some well-placed little birds, I don't believe that's the nature of the problem, nor the nature of the intended solution.


Well if it isn't a physical deployment problem with northern spot beam array than it must be electrical in nature, that would fall into the category of power down,reboot and reload operational software.

But as others stated why move the bird just to reboot it?


----------



## James Long

Matt9876 said:


> Well if it isn't a physical deployment problem with northern spot beam array than it must be electrical in nature, that would fall into the category of power down,reboot and reload operational software.
> 
> But as others stated why move the bird just to reboot it?


Have you read the linked explanation from the STA request? The "tests" they are doing will put out more power than the satellite typically uses and _will_ interfere with other satellites (for very brief periods of time). Having that interference source as far away from in service satellites makes sense.


----------



## D*HR-20

DirectMan said:


> My belief is that locals have not yet been transferred to D12. I believe they will be by next Wednesday June 2.


You realize things can be moved on other days than Wednesday. By all we know, all the locals could move tomorrow. They can even add channels on other days than Wednesday too. When they added our local CW station, they added it on a Saturday.


----------



## Matt9876

James Long said:


> Have you read the linked explanation from the STA request? The "tests" they are doing will put out more power than the satellite typically uses and _will_ interfere with other satellites (for very brief periods of time). Having that interference source as far away from in service satellites makes sense.


Thanks for the PDF (had to make changes to my firewall to read it) makes perfect sense if they are going to overdrive the transponders. Hope it works!

Lots of peoples LiLs depend on it.


----------



## Avder

Standtall29 said:


> Well Looks Like I Cant Get My Dam Hd On My Boat Why In The Hell I Can Pick Up D10 D11 101 119 110 Fine And Cant Get This Dam D12. My Thing Is If We Boat Owners Cant Get HD On Harbour Island In The Bahamas Why Can You Get It In Nassau. Bull Directv Looking To Get Dish Installed On My Boat When I Get Back In Florida.


I cant read anything you said.


----------



## Sixto

More Details (5/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819504​
This is great news, being that the 30 days includes the move back.

And they're moving D10 traffic back.


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> And they're moving D10 traffic back.


Already, or they will be?


----------



## Standtall29

Sixto said:


> More Details (5/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819504​
> This is great news, being that the 30 days includes the move back.
> 
> And they're moving D10 traffic back.


Sixto Thanks For That Good News. Well Its Good To Know That D10 Traffic Will Return, And I Will Have My Cnn In Hd.


----------



## Standtall29

Sixto said:


> More Details (5/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819504​
> This is great news, being that the 30 days includes the move back.
> 
> And they're moving D10 traffic back.





wmb said:


> Already, or they will be?


They Will Be Moving Stuff Back Once D10 Is Back Online.


----------



## wmb

Standtall29 said:


> They Will Be Moving Stuff Back Once D10 Is Back Online.


Thanks. Hadn't read the letter yet.

Looks like our first indication that D10 is moving back will be it starts transmitting again.


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> More Details (5/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819504​
> This is great news, being that the 30 days includes the move back.
> 
> And they're moving D10 traffic back.


Certainly sounds like all D-10 offloading will be complete by 5/2.

Unfortunately not in a position to use my LIL PID download for a couple of days.

Will report the results ASAP.

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> you already have CNN in HD. channel 202 where its been for 3 years.


He's explained several times that the D12 national beam isn't the same in the Bahamas as D10, thus moving back to D10 helps him.


----------



## l'Aucherie

Sixto said:


> He's explained several times that the D12 national beam isn't the same in the Bahamas as D10, thus moving back to D10 helps him.


I notice that you refer to the D12 "national" beam and not the "conus" one. This is also the case for the continental US beam footprint on Satbeams.com. Is this just a new name or is there some difference between the two?


----------



## Sixto

l'Aucherie;2475416 said:


> I notice that you refer to the D12 "national" beam and not the "conus" one. This is also the case for the continental US beam footprint on Satbeams.com. Is this just a new name or is there some difference between the two?


Used "national" because easier term for some. Same.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> Used "national" because easier term for some. Same.


Actually not quite the same. National "should" refer to beams that include Alaska and Hawaii. Some reflectors have a lobe that covers those two, others need to duplicate feeds on another transponder/reflector.

CONUS should be less common these days and only cover the lower 48.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> And they're moving D10 traffic back.


I'd like to point out that the _application_ says that they plan to move only the CONUS traffic back to D10.


----------



## DirectMan

Sixto said:


> More Details (5/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819504​
> This is great news, being that the 30 days includes the move back.
> 
> And they're moving D10 traffic back.


The document states "to return CONUS traffic" from D10 to D12 - no mention of LIL traffic. That may or may not mean that all LIL traffic will permanently be transferred to D12 - perhaps subject to the results of the ameliorization procedures on D10.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> I'd like to point out that the _application_ says that they plan to move only the CONUS traffic back to D10.


Well they really can't talk about the spotbeams until they get the results of "the operation", now can they?


----------



## James Long

DirectMan said:


> The document states "to return CONUS traffic" from D10 to D12 - no mention of LIL traffic. That may or may not mean that all LIL traffic will permanently be transferred to D12 - perhaps subject to the results of the ameliorization procedures on D10.


Exactly. The only mention of CONUS is for the services moved back DURING the migration back home to 102.815.
There is no statement saying that LIL will not be moved back AFTER it reaches it's licensed home.
To say "they plan to move only the CONUS traffic back to D10" is adding an important word that DirecTV didn't say.


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually not quite the same. National "should" refer to beams that include Alaska and Hawaii. Some reflectors have a lobe that covers those two, others need to duplicate feeds on another transponder/reflector.
> 
> CONUS should be less common these days and only cover the lower 48.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yep, just used "national" to distinguish/specify channels that are transmitted nationally (for ease of understanding). 

(The nationals from D10 were an issue for the poster in the Bahamas when moved to D12.)


----------



## Sixto

DirectMan said:


> The document states "to return CONUS traffic" from D10 to D12 - no mention of LIL traffic. That may or may not mean that all LIL traffic will permanently be transferred to D12 - perhaps subject to the results of the amelioration procedures on D10.





harsh said:


> I'd like to point out that the _application_ says that they plan to move only the CONUS traffic back to D10.


Interesting, lots of studying every word (of my post) tonight. 

Yep, they did say that, and that's what I was referring to.

Again, it was just for those concerned about 103 (ca) vs 103 (cb).


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> To say "they plan to move only the CONUS traffic back to D10" is adding an important wod that DirecTV didn't say.


I added the word to draw attention to the fact that there was no mention (or implication) of moving LIL back to D10 in the May 26th application.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Interesting, lots of studying every word tonight.


What else is there to do but parse the apparently not-yet-granted application???

Taking exception to the operating parameters would seem to beg for additional scrutiny.


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> I added the word to draw attention to the fact that there was no mention (or implication) of moving LIL back to D10 in the May 26th application.


You made up a fact. There was no request to move D10 back at all in the first STA application (a point noted in the second application). Does that mean that D10 was going to stay at 102.6 after repair? No.


harsh said:


> What else is there to do but parse the apparently not-yet-granted application???


I'm modifying a program to parse binary data and turn it into a human readable form and watching some recorded HD programming. There has to be something good on TV that you could watch. 

Anyways, hopefully the FCC will quickly approve - DirecTV can turn D10 up to 11 and everything will work out fine.


----------



## direct-dish

Sixto said:


> Interesting, lots of studying every word tonight.
> 
> Yep, they did say that, and that's what I was referring to.
> 
> Again, it was just for those concerned about 103 (ca) vs 103 (cb).


That depends on what the definition of "is" is!
:up_to_som


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> What else is there to do but parse the apparently not-yet-granted application??


Was referring to my post, not the application.

Yes, we do need to study each filing, that's mostly the only public data available.

And JL is correct, we do not know for sure the future configuration/utilization of the D10 spots. IMHO, they will at least return some of the previous LiL to D10. The quantity is unknown, and certainly they may now have a "new" projected D10/D12 LiL plan.

If they indeed end this with 100% availability of the D10 spots, there may be lots of possibilities, some of which they hadn't yet contemplated until after the D10 amelioration became a sparkle in some engineers eye.

Now we just hope for success!


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Was referring to my post, not the application.
> 
> Yes, we do need to study each filing, that's mostly the only public data available.
> 
> And JL is correct, we do not know for sure the future configuration/utilization of the D10 spots. IMHO, they will at least return some of the previous LiL to D10. The quantity is unknown, and certainly they may now have a "new" projected D10/D12 LiL plan.
> 
> If they indeed end this with 100% availability of the D10 spots, there may be lots of possibilities, some of which they hadn't yet contemplated until after the D10 amelioration became a sparkle in some engineers eye.
> 
> Now we just hope for success!


If it gets the Lansing DMA out of the 3%, then I'm giddy


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> If they indeed end this with 100% availability of the D10 spots, there may be lots of possibilities, some of which they hadn't yet contemplated until after the D10 amelioration became a sparkle in some engineers eye.


If things go well, perhaps some background source will provide more detail on the "sparkle in some engineer's eye". I have a suspicion they've been plotting this from not too long after D10 went live. . . just waiting for D12 to arrive on station to make it seamless for the customers. They surely must have had an in-depth "after" review with Boeing of what happened with D10, and likely that's when they would have identified what they could do about it.


----------



## BudShark

jefbal99 said:


> If it gets the Lansing DMA out of the 3%, then I'm giddy


!rolling

You should be more specific. They could simply add MORE markets not including Lansing... which would make you in the 1%. 

But hopefully you do end up being giddy...


----------



## Sixto

Usually, each new satellite gets it's own guide data PID, and network designations/numbers for the national bandwidth and each spot. See all the gct/doctor j data here.

For D12, it's totally sharing the D10 data for now. Been this way all along, since March.

One theory (and this changes as new data becomes available ) is that D12 is just mirroring D10, for now.

Just move everything over 100% to D12, same PID, same network designations, same everything. This might make it much easier to just swap in D12 for D10.

Then when D10 is ameliorated, just swap everything back identically as before, with some tweaks.

Then create all new stuff for D12, as is usually done.

Just a theory.

It would be nice to actually see what they're doing with the D10 LiL. Awaiting doctor j data. Interested if SW1 is involved.

This is all conjecture based on watching this day-to-day.

And again, it changes regularly as new data is uncovered.


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> More Details (5/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819504​
> This is great news, being that the 30 days includes the move back.
> 
> And they're moving D10 traffic back.


It appears that FCC's server is in need of amelioration at the current time. . .


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> If things go well, perhaps some background source will provide more detail on the "sparkle in some engineer's eye". I have a suspicion they've been plotting this from not too long after D10 went live. . . just waiting for D12 to arrive on station to make it seamless for the customers. They surely must have had an in-depth "after" review with Boeing of what happened with D10, and likely that's when they would have identified what they could do about it.


The thought on the corrective action may have existed for quite some time, or not, but based on comments here it appears that D12's time at 76° confirmed the next steps.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> If they indeed end this with 100% availability of the D10 spots, there may be lots of possibilities, some of which they hadn't yet contemplated until after the D10 amelioration became a sparkle in some engineers eye.


Other than assuring 100% redundancy between the spot beam payloads of D10 and D12, what other possibilities might be realized?


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Other than assuring 100% redundancy between the spot beam payloads of D10 and D12, what other possibilities might be realized?


Assuming that the engineers have been studying the possibilities of 1 + 1 = something less then 2, but more then 1, if possible.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Assuming that the engineers have been studying the possibilities of 1 + 1 = something less then 2, but more then 1, if possible.


I was looking for something tangible as my example demonstrated.


----------



## Sixto

One other thought ... it would be nice if someone spent the time to understand the detailed comparison of the D10 and D12 spots ... to understand what's technically possible.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> I was looking for something tangible as my example demonstrated.


Me too. 

Feel free to do the technical analysis. Would be very interested to see the results of any such analysis.

It seems like the data is mostly available, for those interested in dedicating the time.


----------



## BudShark

harsh said:


> I was looking for something tangible as my example demonstrated.




Well, considering 3% of the country is not covered by LiL based on current and announced plans, and the announced plans likely do NOT include potential results from D10, its safe to say if D10 goes as hoped, DirecTV will have something greater than 97%, but probably less than 100% of LiL HD coverage for the US. What more are you after?


----------



## P Smith

jefbal99 said:


> If it gets the Lansing DMA out of the 3%, then I'm giddy


[dish carry all 6 channels of the DMA ]


----------



## Skyboss

Sixto said:


> Usually, each new satellite gets it's own guide data PID, and network designations/numbers for the national bandwidth and each spot. See all the gct/doctor j data here.
> 
> For D12, it's totally sharing the D10 data for now. Been this way all along, since March.
> 
> One theory (and this changes as new data becomes available ) is that D12 is just mirroring D10, for now.
> 
> Just move everything over 100% to D12, same PID, same network designations, same everything. This might make it much easier to just swap in D12 for D10.
> 
> Then when D10 is ameliorated, just swap everything back identically as before, with some tweaks.
> 
> Then create all new stuff for D12, as is usually done.
> 
> Just a theory.
> 
> It would be nice to actually see what they're doing with the D10 LiL. Awaiting doctor j data. Interested if SW1 is involved.
> 
> This is all conjecture based on watching this day-to-day.
> 
> And again, it changes regularly as new data is uncovered.


I think the best part of all this is that D12 is getting an immediate workout. Always good to work out any "Fine Magic" issues that tend to pop up...


----------



## sb999

DirectMan said:


> My belief is that locals have not yet been transferred to D12. I believe they will be by next Wednesday June 2.


Sure. Get my hopes up yet again so they can be dashed mercilessly on the red rocks of this barren wasteland of non-HD local channels!


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> . . . based on comments here it appears that D12's time at 76° confirmed the next steps.


I don't doubt it at all, but obviously there was a process and timeline leading up to that point as well. Engineers tend to be professionally annoyed by equipment that isn't doing what it ought to be capable of doing, and have been known to plot their revenge for long periods of time, waiting for the right moment to hatch it. Yeah, it could have been a short timeline epiphany that got us to this point. . . but absent testimony to that fact, I think the "stubborn engineer refusing to accept defeat" model is more likely.


----------



## skylab

So, I was watching the Star Trek TNG "Contagion" episode last night. The Enterprise was called to assist its sister ship, the USS Yamato. The Yamato was having unexplained problems much like the D10 satellite. The problems ended up destroying the Yamato, and the Enterprise developed similar problems after downloading the Yamato's logs. Similarly, D12 took on D10's programming load and I can only presume it will develop similar problems. 

Fast forwarding, the Enterprise discovers that its computer code is being corrupted by what we might call a virus. Data is later affected by the same virus, and the audience told he has died. Yet he wakes up and Geordi Laforge surmises that his system rebooted, clearing the virus. Geordi has an epiphany and proceeds to reboot the Enterprise and all is well. 

The lesson I learned from this episode when I first watched it in 89 was, "when you have unexplained systems problems, reboot." This worked great for Windows 3.1 through Windows Vista. D* are you watching your own programming? Have you tried rebooting D10? You may want to go ahead and also reboot D12 just in case.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Usually, each new satellite gets it's own guide data PID, and network designations/numbers for the national bandwidth and each spot. See all the gct/doctor j data here.
> 
> For D12, it's totally sharing the D10 data for now. Been this way all along, since March.
> 
> One theory (and this changes as new data becomes available ) is that D12 is just mirroring D10, for now.
> 
> Just move everything over 100% to D12, same PID, same network designations, same everything. This might make it much easier to just swap in D12 for D10.
> 
> Then when D10 is ameliorated, just swap everything back identically as before, with some tweaks.
> 
> Then create all new stuff for D12, as is usually done.
> 
> Just a theory.
> 
> It would be nice to actually see what they're doing with the D10 LiL. Awaiting doctor j data. Interested if SW1 is involved.
> 
> This is all conjecture based on watching this day-to-day.
> 
> And again, it changes regularly as new data is uncovered.


But even if mirrored I take it there obviously must be something in the satellite guide data stream which instructs the receivers to specifically tune to D12's Ka-A band transponder frequencies for CONUS channel requests from 103 WL?


----------



## Sixto

More D10 Details (5/27/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819530​


----------



## inourgrave

Sixto said:


> Usually, each new satellite gets it's own guide data PID, and network designations/numbers for the national bandwidth and each spot. See all the gct/doctor j data here.
> 
> For D12, it's totally sharing the D10 data for now. Been this way all along, since March.
> 
> One theory (and this changes as new data becomes available ) is that D12 is just mirroring D10, for now.
> 
> Just move everything over 100% to D12, same PID, same network designations, same everything. This might make it much easier to just swap in D12 for D10.
> 
> Then when D10 is ameliorated, just swap everything back identically as before, with some tweaks.


Probably not as easy as swapping D10 for D12 they have to re-map everything, d12 was mirroring d10. 
I think transfered content on D12 stays, and not load balancing d10-d12.


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> But even if mirrored I take it there obviously must be something in the satellite guide data stream which instructs the receivers to specifically tune to D12's Ka-A band transponder frequencies for CONUS channel requests from 103 WL?


Yes, there are differences, especially transponder numbers, which is how we're tracking the movement for the nationals.


----------



## inourgrave

Sixto said:


> The thought on the corrective action may have existed for quite some time, or not, but based on comments here it appears that D12's time at 76° confirmed the next steps.


This was boeing's project so who knows what those guys were thinking, you'd be floored at how simple the fix is. And no one has guessed it.


----------



## Sixto

inourgrave said:


> This was boeing's project so who knows what those guys were thinking, you'd be floored at how simple the fix is. And no one has guessed it.


Correct.


----------



## Sixto

inourgrave said:


> Probably not as easy as swapping D10 for D12 they have to re-map everything, d12 was mirroring d10.
> I think transfered content on D12 stays, and not load balancing d10-d12.


Thanks for joining.

Yes, certainly was over simplifying it, and there are several differences. Just overall, seemed like there was a benefit to keeping some of the D10 structure (PID, network designations, ...). At least for the initial roll-out.

Again, thanks for posting.


----------



## Lt Disher

inourgrave said:


> This was boeing's project so who knows what those guys were thinking, you'd be floored at how simple the fix is. And no one has guessed it.


Just to recap then, what I have seen as guesses here in this thread have been:

1. Physically rotate the satellite and stop it quickly to somehow jolt the offending parts into their proper place. (This one seems to have been dismissed by those in the know.)

2. Simply rebooting the satellite as you might do to a computer. Power off and then power on, in some way.

3. Power off and then go through all of the normal startup processes that are done on a new satellite, in the hope that this will fix the problem.

Perhaps there have been other suggestions that I missed.

If you are correct that no one has guessed this simple solution yet, we need to put our heads together to think of some other simple procedure.


----------



## inourgrave

All I have to say there are some really smart people here!


----------



## Skyboss

Lt Disher said:


> 3. Power off and then go through all of the normal startup processes that are done on a new satellite, in the hope that this will fix the problem.


I think it's a Firmware/Software feed and a reboot. There's what looks like a planned signal burst, but that may just be a function of the start up procedure.

Look, about the whole jarring loose thing: The thing is in space people - zero gravity - so flipping it over isn't going to do squat. If the intent was to jar something loose, you'd have to send a person up to do it. No thruster is going to cause a jolt effective enough. :nono2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Lt Disher said:


> Just to recap then, what I have seen as guesses here in this thread have been:
> 
> 1. Physically rotate the satellite and stop it quickly to somehow jolt the offending parts into their proper place. (This one seems to have been dismissed by those in the know.)
> 
> 2. Simply rebooting the satellite as you might do to a computer. Power off and then power on, in some way.
> 
> 3. Power off and then go through all of the normal startup processes that are done on a new satellite, in the hope that this will fix the problem.
> 
> Perhaps there have been other suggestions that I missed.
> 
> If you are correct that no one has guessed this simple solution yet, we need to put our heads together to think of some other simple procedure.


A few others... 
Point the satellite the right way
Put the north side to the south cuz they had the directions backward (where is Will Smith when we need him)
Recharge the flux capacitor
Change the firing sequence on the spark plugs (where is Marisa Tomei when we need her...)
Broadcast Heart's _Magic Man_ and _Phantom of the Opera_ very loudly thru the TWA's. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken984

It seems to me that without knowing the exact problem with the spots, its very hard to think of a solution. Did they not turn on with the others? Were they slightly out of alignment? On but not enough power for a quality signal?
I will throw my guess in according to the idea that the spots in question did not "turn on". They are going to burst a very high power signal thru the affected areas in hopes that that jolts them into operation.


----------



## Whiskey River

After reading the STA request, and that it informs the commision that they are going to exceed power levels for short amounts of time, maybe just maybe they are going to cause the transponders to burn out, then since the satellite is has built in spares, maybe somehow the exsisting transponders arent totaly broken until they over power them, maybe thats why they moved it so that the over powering of the transponders do not cause interference, and then they can assign the spare xmitters to replace the broken ones, but maybe it cannot be done if the xmitters are partially working.


----------



## oldfantom

Tom Robertson said:


> A few others...
> Point the satellite the right way
> Put the north side to the south cuz they had the directions backward (where is Will Smith when we need him)
> Recharge the flux capacitor
> Change the firing sequence on the spark plugs (where is Marisa Tomei when we need her...)
> Broadcast Heart's _Magic Man_ and _Phantom of the Opera_ very loudly thru the TWA's.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I bet it has something to do with an engineer that was smart enough to bring his towel. As you are aware, a towel can be exceptionally handy.


----------



## P Smith

Whiskey River said:


> After reading the STA request, and that it informs the commision that they are going to exceed power levels for short amounts of time, maybe just maybe they are going to cause the transponders to burn out, then since the satellite is has built in spares, maybe somehow the exsisting transponders arent totaly broken until they over power them, maybe thats why they moved it so that the over powering of the transponders do not cause interference, and then they can assign the spare xmitters to replace the broken ones, but maybe it cannot be done if the xmitters are partially working.


For that type of amelioration it will need a lot of power/energy, what definitely must affect normal transmitting, hence the offload to D12 came first.


----------



## Lt Disher

Some speak of a power burst that is mentioned in the STA. However, as I read it, the permission to exceed normal limits is being used after the attempt to fix the problem. They are using those excess limits to see if the process actually worked. Sixto has also shown that even in a normal deployment of a new satellite they ask for permission to exceed normal limits as part of the testing. It seems to me that the power bursts are not meant as the means to fix the problem, but rather a means to test if the fix worked.

(I'm not a scientist, so don't speak in the exact terms the some of you like. I'm just trying to see if I can ferret out an explanation of what might be happening. Just for fun.)


----------



## georule

Well, there's got to be some element of power off/on/reboot involved here, or I can't think why they'd need to relocate to go thru the procedure and test the results. If it were as easy as, "Umm, Joe, how about you rotate that bird just a wee bit that-a-way to make up for the dork at Boeing who forgot to remove the anti-vibration shipping spacers beneath the BSS arrays" they could have done that without moving it.


----------



## Sixto

Just the testing itself may necessitate the move.


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> Just the testing itself may necessitate the move.


Yes, but that implies things about the testing required as well. Given that we've agreed that they already did some level of testing of the procedure (whatever it is) when D12 was at 76. Simple misalignment issues due to some construction or launch-prepping oopsie wouldn't seem to fit in that catagory. If they could do their testing on D10 while remaining within normal operational parameters, there would be no reason to move it, right? Our boxes at home are showing we can still "see" D10 quite clearly at its temporary new location, so that wouldn't seem to be a concern.

Their STA for over-powered testing is only for the testing phase. They can't try to use that to overcome a (only theorized for example) alignment issue once they go back to operational parameters.

Maybe what they did with D12 at 76 was try to recreate the D10 problem based on what they theorized was causing it? "So if somebody forgot to load this subroutine here in the software package, do we get 'a D10 problem'?"

There are all kinds of simple "stupids" to come up with, down to somebody put the wrong size memory chips somewhere and the control software corrupted some routine when it ran out of memory.


----------



## Brent04

Whiskey River said:


> After reading the STA request, and that it informs the commision that they are going to exceed power levels for short amounts of time, maybe just maybe they are going to cause the transponders to burn out, then since the satellite is has built in spares, maybe somehow the exsisting transponders arent totaly broken until they over power them, maybe thats why they moved it so that the over powering of the transponders do not cause interference, and then they can assign the spare xmitters to replace the broken ones, but maybe it cannot be done if the xmitters are partially working.


If they were going to cause the transponders to burn out then why would DirecTV have used D12 to experiment with a possible solution. I don't think DirecTV would be willing to purposely burn out transponders on a satellite just launched to see if the spares would kick in. Also I would think that there would be a means to activate the spares and deactivate the faulty one without having to have a transponder to be totally broken (unless the control for that is damaged also). To me that wouldn't be a good use of having a spare in case something just partly damaged a transponder but not enough damage to allow a spare to come online.


----------



## pfp

Duct tape. You can fix just about anything with duct tape.


----------



## Matt9876

Whiskey River said:


> After reading the STA request, and that it informs the commision that they are going to exceed power levels for short amounts of time, maybe just maybe they are going to cause the transponders to burn out, then since the satellite is has built in spares, maybe somehow the exsisting transponders arent totaly broken until they over power them, maybe thats why they moved it so that the over powering of the transponders do not cause interference, and then they can assign the spare xmitters to replace the broken ones, but maybe it cannot be done if the xmitters are partially working.


I think you may be onto something but I doubt they will try and burn out any transponders on purpose,More likely test the bad ones,if they won't preform to spec.reboot and reprogram to run on the spare transponders then test again.Problem is if the spares are on a misaligned array it will do no good,50/50 chance of it working.


----------



## LameLefty

They won't be intentionally burning out any transponders, nor is that necessary to switch to spare transponders anyway.


----------



## clueless

format C: and reinstall


----------



## Tom Robertson

Someone forgot to take the vinyl covers off the reflectors before launch. The extra power is to burn them off... 

(Just kidding, everyone...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Yes, but that implies things about the testing required as well. ...


Wasn't intending to imply much. 

DirecTV may feel that the testing described in the STA is either preferred, or required, to be a little ways from the rest of the fleet, thus 102.6°.


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Someone forgot to take the vinyl covers off the reflectors before launch. The extra power is to burn them off...
> 
> (Just kidding, everyone...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Cool.


----------



## wmb

clueless said:


> format C: and reinstall


No, they forgot:

Files =20, Buffers =20, FCBS=16

in the autoexec.bat file


----------



## James Long

If this doesn't work, Tom and Sixto will be going up to fix it themselves.
Lame Lefty will run ground control.


----------



## oldfantom

James Long said:


> If this doesn't work, Tom and Sixto will be going up to fix it themselves.
> Lame Lefty will run ground control.


Tom, If they try to give you a commission with o-4 rank, don't go!


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> If this doesn't work, Tom and Sixto will be going up to fix it themselves.
> Lame Lefty will run ground control.


I'm actually a former spacecraft plumber - I'd probably be better utilized with the wrench.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I'm actually a former spacecraft plumber - I'd probably be better utilized with the wrench.


Good, we'll switch.


----------



## Matt9876

Even if they fail to fix the northern spot beams on D10,D12 now has those missing areas covered I see many new areas getting LiLs before the end of the year and once D10 returns to it's assigned place at 103 (fixed or not) they will have the capacity for tons more HD goodness.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-10
NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		05-27-2010 07:26:17
Orbit # at Epoch	1059
Inclination		0.012
RA of A. Node		232.847
Eccentricity		0.0000549
Argument of Perigee	113.423
Revs per day		1.00270343
Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 789 km
Element number / age	494 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.5832° W
Lat			0.0099° S
Alt (km)		35 786.600

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
494 05-27 07:26 35,785 x 35,789      4 102.5832°W  0.0099°S  0.012°
493 05-24 09:14 35,783 x 35,787      4 102.5697°W  0.0002°S  0.025°
492 05-18 08:29 35,785 x 35,787      2 102.7430°W  0.0121°N  0.042°
491 05-14 16:13 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8013°W  0.0214°S  0.048°
490 05-13 13:13 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8021°W  0.0185°S  0.045°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## georule

James Long said:


> If this doesn't work, Tom and Sixto will be going up to fix it themselves.
> Lame Lefty will run ground control.


Now Lefty is practicing his "Ground Control to Major Tom" reads.

Somebody around here ought to be able to fix up a Spaces Forces of Republic of DBSTalk commission suitable for framing. . .


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> I'm actually a former spacecraft plumber - I'd probably be better utilized with the wrench.


That reminded me of the time I climbed inside the thermal-vac chamber at Hughes to do some tweaking on one of the sats (wrenches in both hands).


----------



## georule

bobnielsen said:


> That reminded me of the time I climbed inside the thermal-vac chamber at Hughes to do some tweaking on one of the sats (wrenches in both hands).


Ahh, a two-fisted dinker. 

*Well, okay "dinker" is a bit of stretch, with multiple meanings, one of which is doing the least possible to get the job done. But I needed it right there. . . :lol:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

inourgrave said:


> This was boeing's project so who knows what those guys were thinking, you'd be floored at how simple the fix is. And no one has guessed it.


Sounds like you know something.........


----------



## jsg

Sixto said:


> More D10 Details (5/27/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819530​


It looks to me like the FCC associated this with Callsign S2461, a PanAmSat satellite, rather than S2641 (D10). Or am I just cross-eyed and dyslexic?


----------



## LameLefty

inourgrave said:


> This was boeing's project so who knows what those guys were thinking, you'd be floored at how simple the fix is. And no one has guessed it.


I'm pretty sure I know what it is.


----------



## Groundhog45

LameLefty said:


> I'm pretty sure I know what it is.


Come on, spill. Or at least give us a few hints.


----------



## Lt Disher

LameLefty said:


> I'm pretty sure I know what it is.


Unless you are bound by some confidentiality agreement, or a gentleman's agreement with your sources, what harm is there in letting us all in on your knowledge.


----------



## LameLefty

Lt Disher said:


> Unless you are bound by some confidentiality agreement, *or a gentleman's agreement with your sources,* what harm is there in letting us all in on your knowledge.


I don't want to scare off the little birds dropping me crumbs.

Suffice it to say that some of the ideas bandied about are patently ridiculous from an engineering perspective, but a few are bouncing around the edges of the right idea.


----------



## Hdhead

The sequencing of the power up may hold the key. Just a guess.


----------



## ATARI

LameLefty said:


> I don't want to scare off the little birds dropping me crumbs.
> 
> Suffice it to say that some of the ideas bandied about are patently ridiculous from an engineering perspective, but a few are bouncing around the edges of the right idea.


So is it:
FDISK
FORMAT C:
and reinstall the firmware

??


----------



## MadMac

There was a case some years ago where a satellite ended up 'bricked' due to the exploding bolts (which release the solar panels) being installed upside down. I kid you not.


----------



## djrobx

They are sending the secret command to enable all spot transponders:

UP, UP, DOWN, DOWN, LEFT, RIGHT, LEFT, RIGHT, B, A, START


----------



## dmurphy

James Long said:


> If this doesn't work, Tom and Sixto will be going up to fix it themselves.
> Lame Lefty will run ground control.


Hey guys, I hear there's a beautiful ship that's got nothing to do for a while ...

As I wrote elsewhere:

For sale: 1985 Rockwell Int'l Space Shuttle (Atlantis). Seats 7, runs well, lots of horsepower, auto, A/C, 120m miles on odometer, plenty of upgrades (glass cockpit, drogue chute, lots more.) Serious buyers only. Local pickup in Florida.


----------



## Tom Servo

Hmm. I'll put in my two guesses as to what's wrong and how it'll be fixed.

A) One of the spot beam arrays didn't deploy to its proper position, cutting off the northern part of the US from the antenna pattern but leaving the rest of the array covering everywhere else. The solution will be to return the spacecraft to the stowed position (in as much as possible since it's probably a one time deployment) and re-open it to pop the array or antenna into proper place.

B) One or more of the spot beam transponders simply had been setup wrong or had faulty code and weren't amplifing the received signal properly. (The old "you forgot to convert meters to feet" gag.) The solution is to simply reconfigure the faulty amplifiers to the right specs. And Ctrl-Alt-Delete is the first step.

Now, tell me how wrong I am.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> Other than assuring 100% redundancy between the spot beam payloads of D10 and D12, what other possibilities might be realized?


Um, how about instead of shooting one or two spot beams to each market., they can now shoot 2 or 4.. (or double what they had before, it the spots are all in the same configuration, which they may not be) and in some cases even more than that... That would let them add more HD locals in existing markets.. And possible add some more markets as well in areas that had spotbeams pointed improperly...


----------



## inkahauts

dmurphy said:


> Hey guys, I hear there's a beautiful ship that's got nothing to do for a while ...
> 
> As I wrote elsewhere:
> 
> For sale: 1985 Rockwell Int'l Space Shuttle (Atlantis). Seats 7, runs well, lots of horsepower, auto, A/C, 120m miles on odometer, plenty of upgrades (glass cockpit, drogue chute, lots more.) Serious buyers only. Local pickup in Florida.


DO you take credit cards?


----------



## gphvid

ATARI said:


> So is it:
> FDISK
> FORMAT C:
> and reinstall the firmware
> 
> ??


More like, reboot, run system restore, select restore point, click ok, then wait for reboot...

Or, run a malware removal program but then you have to completely reconfigure things once it is done...


----------



## gphvid

LameLefty said:


> I'm pretty sure I know what it is.


I used to work at a TV station where the transmitter went off the air because a small mouse had gotten into the air cooling system and the air ducts to the outside would not open because the mouse had gotten caught in the gears preventing the blinds from opening.

I bet that's it. A stray cat got caught in the sat before launch.....


----------



## CoramDeo

inkahauts said:


> Um, how about instead of shooting one or two spot beams to each market., they can now shoot 2 or 4.. (or double what they had before, it the spots are all in the same configuration, which they may not be) and in some cases even more than that... That would let them add more HD locals in existing markets.. And possible add some more markets as well in areas that had spotbeams pointed improperly...


Or maybe they could expand their offerings to all 210 DMAs. Some of us don't have ANY locals from D*, meanwhile the front page has details on the other guys offering locals for all markets soon.


----------



## LameLefty

djrobx said:


> they are sending the secret command to enable all spot transponders:
> 
> Up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, start


all your sats are belong to us.


----------



## netconcepts

They found Dr. Evil. For 'One Meelion Dollars' they will guarantee a safe return of the satellite.


----------



## pjb3589

Didn't read all 26 pages so I don't know if its been posted already, but I live in an apartment complex served by MFH3. I also used to work for the company that runs the system here, and I talked to my friends who are still there, and they said the DTV has told them that MFH3 doesn't support D12 without a major hardware upgrade that isn't due for a few months. Gotta love how they thought this one through though; dunno how common MFH3 is, but this definately screws over a portion of their customers since I've lost everything but HD locals as of two nights ago. 

Just a heads up to anyone who has any involvement with MFH3.


----------



## Talos4

I dunno, This repair may take a while.


----------



## Sixto

Let's at least try to stay on topic, or visit other threads to fill the time as we track D10.

Relative to what the procedure is, let's just say that most people prefer to keep their jobs, especially in this economy.

Happy Memorial Day Weekend.


----------



## Sixto

pjb3589 said:


> Didn't read all 26 pages so I don't know if its been posted already, but I live in an apartment complex served by MFH3. I also used to work for the company that runs the system here, and I talked to my friends who are still there, and they said the DTV has told them that MFH3 doesn't support D12 without a major hardware upgrade that isn't due for a few months. Gotta love how they thought this one through though; dunno how common MFH3 is, but this definately screws over a portion of their customers since I've lost everything but HD locals as of two nights ago.
> 
> Just a heads up to anyone who has any involvement with MFH3.


Interesting to think this through.

Can't say I know anything about MFH3, but D12 is just using part of the regular stackplan (Ka-Hi) that's been around from the early Spaceway-1/2 days, where most of the original HD LiLs were.

Edit: Hmmm. So MFH3 is the IP stuff?


----------



## tuff bob

Talos4 said:


> I dunno, This repair may take a while.


looks familiar...


----------



## gregjones

Has anyone considered that they might just need the extra power because the satellite is slightly off-station?


----------



## Sixto

gregjones said:


> Has anyone considered that they might just need the extra power because the satellite is slightly off-station?


The "exceed" is normal. Same with D12, same with other testing previously.


----------



## superman8730

Maybe with this fix they will be able to actually cover the Wichita/Hutchinson DMA. D* claims that the DMA has HD loclas, but its actually only the eastern half of Kansas. The HD locals show up in my guide though, searching and searching.


----------



## tonyd79

Sixto said:


> Let's at least try to stay on topic, or visit other threads to fill the time as we track D10.
> 
> Relative to what the procedure is, let's just say that most people prefer to keep their jobs, especially in this economy.
> 
> Happy Memorial Day Weekend.


Hmm.

This implies that someone did something incorrectly when D10 was deployed and the "fix" is to redo that thing.

I cannot see how a solution would cost a job so it is the problem that could cost someone one. The solution must be some type of redeploy or restart and is relatively simple and effective but they needed another satellite to do it because it could not be done while the satellite was in full operation.

Oh, and Happy Memorial Day to you, too.


----------



## Sixto

tonyd79 said:


> Hmm.
> 
> This implies that someone did something incorrectly when D10 was deployed and the "fix" is to redo that thing.
> 
> I cannot see how a solution would cost a job so it is the problem that could cost someone one. The solution must be some type of redeploy or restart and is relatively simple and effective but they needed another satellite to do it because it could not be done while the satellite was in full operation.
> 
> Oh, and Happy Memorial Day to you, too.


No implication.

Was just referring to the release of what might be considered confidential company information.


----------



## Matt9876

superman8730 said:


> Maybe with this fix they will be able to actually cover the Wichita/Hutchinson DMA. D* claims that the DMA has HD loclas, but its actually only the eastern half of Kansas. The HD locals show up in my guide though, searching and searching.


With the arrival of the fully functional D12 satellite you are covered,weather DirecTV expands LiLs to the missing area of the DMA is anybody's guess.

A repaired D10 would just be icing on the cake at this point.


----------



## harsh

superman8730 said:


> Maybe with this fix they will be able to actually cover the Wichita/Hutchinson DMA. D* claims that the DMA has HD loclas, but its actually only the eastern half of Kansas. The HD locals show up in my guide though, searching and searching.


Looking at some spotbeam maps, there doesn't seem to be any relief coming from the 103W slot for the western edge of Kansas. It would seem that the best hope would be something from Spaceway 2 after rearranging things to account for a presumably more functional satellite at 103W in D12.


----------



## Sixto

More details (5/28/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=819723​
All good with AMC-15 now.

Very nice to see these daily updates, quite obvious that they're anxious to get this done.


----------



## harsh

Matt9876 said:


> With the arrival of the fully functional D12 satellite you are covered,weather DirecTV expands LiLs to the missing area of the DMA is anybody's guess.


Far western Kansas is covered (>39.5dBw) only by the Denver spot beam. The KC spotbeam dosn't cover it.


----------



## Skyboss

Sixto said:


> All good with AMC-15 now.


Aye... Yes. I see that DirecTV has deployed its laser battery to take AMC-15 out. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Be nice if they keep up the daily updates.

A few here would welcome a daily status report.


----------



## GregLee

All my locals here in Honolulu went black-screen last night. No searching for signal errors -- just no picture at 10:40pm my time, 4:40am Eastern. A few hours later, picture was back. I mention it here because there might be some connection with the move of D10.


----------



## Sixto

GregLee said:


> All my locals here in Honolulu went black-screen last night. No searching for signal errors -- just no picture at 10:40pm my time, 4:40am Eastern. A few hours later, picture was back. I mention it here because there might be some connection with the move of D10.


The gct/doctor j maps show Honolulu locals as network 600 on D11.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-10
NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		05-28-2010 09:46:49
Orbit # at Epoch	1060
Inclination		0.010
RA of A. Node		235.836
Eccentricity		0.0000573
Argument of Perigee	114.134
Revs per day		1.00270023
Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 790 km
Element number / age	495 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.5900° W
Lat			0.0016° S
Alt (km)		35 785.390

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
495 05-28 09:46 35,785 x 35,790      5 102.5900°W  0.0016°S  0.010°
494 05-27 07:26 35,785 x 35,789      4 102.5832°W  0.0099°S  0.012°
493 05-24 09:14 35,783 x 35,787      4 102.5697°W  0.0002°S  0.025°
492 05-18 08:29 35,785 x 35,787      2 102.7430°W  0.0121°N  0.042°
491 05-14 16:13 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.8013°W  0.0214°S  0.048°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## ATARI

tuff bob said:


> looks familiar...


That does seem to be the color scheme, doesn't it?


----------



## P Smith

ATARI said:


> That does seem to be the color scheme, doesn't it?


Isn't time to stop ?
:backtotop:


----------



## inourgrave

Tom Robertson said:


> Someone forgot to take the vinyl covers off the reflectors before launch. The extra power is to burn them off...
> 
> (Just kidding, everyone...)


HA, that need to be added to the list for sure!


----------



## LameLefty

inourgrave said:


> HA, that need to be added to the list for sure!


I hope they didn't use vinyl in the clean room - it off-gasses something fierce and that can't be good for delicate surfaces.


----------



## inourgrave

Sixto said:


> The gct/doctor j maps show Honolulu locals as network 600 on D11.
> Originally Posted by GregLee
> All my locals here in Honolulu went black-screen last night. No searching for signal errors -- just no picture at 10:40pm my time, 4:40am Eastern. A few hours later, picture was back. I mention it here because there might be some connection with the move of D10.


Could have just been routine maintenance on something.


----------



## inkahauts

CoramDeo said:


> Or maybe they could expand their offerings to all 210 DMAs. Some of us don't have ANY locals from D*, meanwhile the front page has details on the other guys offering locals for all markets soon.


Could be a combination of both these things.. And maybe the space way will also be able to finally fill in the gaps once they know that d10 is back up and full power...

Only time will really tell us...


----------



## Avder

It will be nice if this fix does the trick and after D10 gets put back into service they announce a few more markets getting HD locals... Fargo, ND would be nice to see on a list of markets to get HD Locals.


----------



## pjb3589

Sixto said:


> Interesting to think this through.
> 
> Can't say I know anything about MFH3, but D12 is just using part of the regular stackplan (Ka-Hi) that's been around from the early Spaceway-1/2 days, where most of the original HD LiLs were.
> 
> Edit: Hmmm. So MFH3 is the IP stuff?


Yeah, the email they received from DirecTV stated the following:



> DIRECTV has temporality relocated some of the national HD channels to the new 103 A-band satellite. This temporary move is part of the overall plan to increase HD service capacity in the coming months. As a result, the HD national channels previously located on the 103 B-band frequency slot will temporarily not be accessible to IPAdvantage customers. IPAdvantage customers with models HR20i-100 will see a black or gray screen when tuning to these HD channels. A list of affected HD channels is attached.


----------



## harsh

inkahauts said:


> Um, how about instead of shooting one or two spot beams to each market., they can now shoot 2 or 4.. (or double what they had before, it the spots are all in the same configuration, which they may not be) and in some cases even more than that... That would let them add more HD locals in existing markets.. And possible add some more markets as well in areas that had spotbeams pointed improperly...


If the spots are the same configuration, they can't use them simultaneously.


D12 LOA application said:


> The satellite will also be capable of supporting 49 spot beams that will serve as in-orbit redundancy or replacement for several operational scenarios. Initially, DIRECTV intends to use this satellite, in part, to take over retransmission of HD local services currently being provided by DIRECTV 10, at which time the spot beam capability of DIRECTV 10 will become the backup for that capability on DIRECTV 12.


----------



## DirectMan

harsh said:


> If the spots are the same configuration, they can't use them simultaneously.


They can add additional frequencies in the same spot configurations assuming these don't overlap with those frequencies utilized in adjoining spot markets.


----------



## harsh

DirectMan said:


> They can add additional frequencies in the same spot configurations assuming these don't overlap with those frequencies utilized in adjoining spot markets.


I don't think they have that level of flexibility. I'm thinking that each spot beam is associated with a particular transponder and hence a fixed frequency.


----------



## Tom Servo

pjb3589 said:


> Yeah, the email they received from DirecTV stated the following:


Well, that shoots down my theory that they're just gonna leave all this stuff on D12 after the D10 fix.



Sixto said:


> No implication.
> 
> Was just referring to the release of what might be considered confidential company information.


Will this become non-confidential information after the fix is applied, or will we never know what happened?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Tom Servo said:


> Well, that shoots down my theory that they're just gonna leave all this stuff on D12 after the D10 fix.
> 
> Will this become non-confidential information after the fix is applied, or will we never know what happened?


My guess is we'll never know.

Unless... Boeing writes it up in some technical brief on a way to fix something or another. But might imply something they might not to let anyone know about. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## DirectMan

harsh said:


> I don't think they have that level of flexibility. I'm thinking that each spot beam is associated with a particular transponder and hence a fixed frequency.


Would the feedhorn vary in size or shape based on the frequency? I would think that it might have some flexibility to radiate different frequencies within a narrow range but perhaps it is designed with precise tolerances to optimize the radiated power of a specific frequency. I dunno.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> I don't think they have that level of flexibility. I'm thinking that each spot beam is associated with a particular transponder and hence a fixed frequency.


This is silly.. If that where the case then there would be no point in having backup transponders on a sat.. They have to be able to change what frequencies each transponder is using otherwise they would have to be able to GUESS which one would fail... Now that is not saying they have to be able to change bands, for example from hi to lo, but to change from one small block to another in the same band, thats only logical.


----------



## inkahauts

DirectMan said:


> Would the feedhorn vary in size or shape based on the frequency? I would think that it might have some flexibility to radiate different frequencies within a narrow range but perhaps it is designed with precise tolerances to optimize the radiated power of a specific frequency. I dunno.


Luckily, he started off by saying its his thinking, not anything based on fact from boeing or directv, and sense he is not a rocket scientist, I wouldn't put to much precedence into his thinking on this matter... its lacking logic.

I am waiting for him to post a reasonable explanation as to why they wouldn't be able to change frequencies among different transponders..


----------



## Sixto

Here's the technical details (see Schedule-S page-6 channels and transponders):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=730514​And here's the spot beams (defined in above link):http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?id=2435​The 10 transponders have set frequencies (not changeable).

And we believe the 49 spot beams are set (not changeable).

The attached Schedule-S shows the transponder-to-spot mapping. Usually 2-3 transponders per spot.

The question is the flexibility (if any) of the mapping.


----------



## Dolly

I'm in way over by head here so all I'll say is D* certainly moved channels without a problem--our HD picture is a wonderful as ever :sunsmile:


----------



## DirectMan

Sixto said:


> Here's the technical details (see Schedule-S page-6 channels and transponders):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=730514​And here's the spot beams (defined in above link):http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?id=2435​


OK if I understand the filing the following is for Los Angeles:

BEAM ID/ TRANSPONDER ID/ CHANNEL NO. 
A1BB SP111 TS16
A1BB SP112 TS19
A4BB SP471 TS21
A4BB SP472 TS22

So in this case LA has 4 possible transponders on D12, with currently 5 HD stations per transponder, thus giving LA 20 possible local stations on the two spotbeams. Correct?


----------



## hyde76

Los Angeles has something close to, if not more than 20 local channels, with 3 or 4 PBS's and a variety of Spanish and Asian language programming including Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese. On my OTA box, last time I did a channel search, I got something like 58 channels. D* carries only a few of the sub-channels but still, there were a lot of main, -1 channels that are carried. In my custom channel list, I turn most of them off.


----------



## Ed Campbell

_"Unless... Boeing writes it up in some technical brief on a way to fix something"_

Or notes published as part of a patent filing. Like including the moon as apparatus.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Here's the technical details (see Schedule-S page-6 channels and transponders):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=730514​And here's the spot beams (defined in above link):http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?id=2435​The 10 transponders have set frequencies (not changeable).
> 
> *And we believe the 49 spot beams are set (not changeable).*
> 
> The attached Schedule-S shows the transponder-to-spot mapping. Usually 2-3 transponders per spot.
> 
> The question is the flexibility (if any) of the mapping.


IIRC though there was a notice to the FCC by DirecTV that some of D12's 49 available spotbeams (either 5 or 6) were not to be used and shut down. But the document and FCC link are buried somewhere way back in the D12 pre-launch thread and I haven't been able to locate it with the search engine.

Perhaps someone else may have better luck though ...


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> IIRC though there was a notice to the FCC by DirecTV that some of D12's 49 available spotbeams (either 5 or 6) were not to be used and shut down. But the document and FCC link are buried somewhere way back in the D12 pre-launch thread and I haven't been able to locate it with the search engine.
> 
> Perhaps someone else may have better luck though ...


Yes, since D12 was designed to backup D10 or D11, those 5 are for D11 backup.

Here's the link:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=743323​


----------



## Rob

DirectMan said:


> OK if I understand the filing the following is for Los Angeles:
> 
> BEAM ID/ TRANSPONDER ID/ CHANNEL NO.
> A1BB SP111 TS16
> A1BB SP112 TS19
> A4BB SP471 TS21
> A4BB SP472 TS22
> 
> So in this case LA has 4 possible transponders on D12, with currently 5 HD stations per transponder, thus giving LA 20 possible local stations on the two spotbeams. Correct?


Could some of that space be for San Diego stations. LA spots cover a large area.


----------



## RyMcQ

Sixto said:


> Here's the technical details (see Schedule-S page-6 channels and transponders):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=730514​And here's the spot beams (defined in above link):http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?id=2435​The 10 transponders have set frequencies (not changeable).
> 
> And we believe the 49 spot beams are set (not changeable).
> 
> The attached Schedule-S shows the transponder-to-spot mapping. Usually 2-3 transponders per spot.
> 
> The question is the flexibility (if any) of the mapping.


The SLC spotbeam (A4BA) looks exactly the same as before. Does this mean St George is still screwed?


----------



## DodgerKing

DirectMan said:


> OK if I understand the filing the following is for Los Angeles:
> 
> BEAM ID/ TRANSPONDER ID/ CHANNEL NO.
> A1BB SP111 TS16
> A1BB SP112 TS19
> A4BB SP471 TS21
> A4BB SP472 TS22
> 
> So in this case LA has 4 possible transponders on D12, with currently 5 HD stations per transponder, thus giving LA 20 possible local stations on the two spotbeams. Correct?


We already have 10 through Direct, what is 10 more?


----------



## HoTat2

Rob said:


> Could some of that space be for San Diego stations. LA spots cover a large area.


Transponder 16 on D10 is assigned to the San Diego DMA according to gct's data, so if D12 is duplicating D10's spotbeams I would naturally assume it's the same. In fact on my S.S. screens Tp. 16 is listed as N/A even though the spotbeam covers the L.A. DMA.

For the L.A. DMA (Network ID 624) Tps. 19, 21, and 22 at 103(s) are reading as 100 though only 19 and 21 are being used for HD LiLs. currently.

Tp. 22 only recently became active on the S.S. when D12 went live and I don't know what it is carrying.


----------



## DirectMan

RyMcQ said:


> The SLC spotbeam (A4BA) looks exactly the same as before. Does this mean St George is still screwed?


I looked at the D12 spot map for A4BA and based on the St George 37.1 degree N Latitute and 113.6 degree W Longitude, based on an eyeball view it looks like St. George is located just outside the orange band. The D* website indicates that HD SLC Locals are being offered.

It seems that reception might be at the extreme edge of the spotbeam and thus possibly subject to rain fade or other weather related reception. But if D* offers it it must be within acceptable reception standards.


----------



## inourgrave

HoTat2 said:


> Transponder 16 on D10 is assigned to the San Diego DMA according to gct's data, so if D12 is duplicating D10's spotbeams I would naturally assume it's the same. In fact on my S.S. screens Tp. 16 is listed as N/A even though the spotbeam covers the L.A. DMA.
> 
> For the L.A. DMA (Network ID 624) Tps. 19, 21, and 22 at 103(s) are reading as 100 though only 19 and 21 are being used for HD LiLs. currently.
> 
> Tp. 22 only recently became active on the S.S. when D12 went live and I don't know what it is carrying.


D12 mirroring D10 doesn't mean that the TP will be the same.


----------



## inkahauts

DirectMan said:


> OK if I understand the filing the following is for Los Angeles:
> 
> BEAM ID/ TRANSPONDER ID/ CHANNEL NO.
> A1BB SP111 TS16
> A1BB SP112 TS19
> A4BB SP471 TS21
> A4BB SP472 TS22
> 
> So in this case LA has 4 possible transponders on D12, with currently 5 HD stations per transponder, thus giving LA 20 possible local stations on the two spotbeams. Correct?


Don't forget that d11 has spots pointing to our area, and also they can always point the spaceway to our area as well, which is actually where our HD locals came from when they where first launched.


----------



## inkahauts

RyMcQ said:


> The SLC spotbeam (A4BA) looks exactly the same as before. Does this mean St George is still screwed?


Don;t know.. It has been speculated that D10 was never aimed right for that market, but who knows... If thats the case though, maybe being realigned properly will fix the issue.


----------



## P Smith

bobnielsen said:


> Since we don't know the nature of the amelioration, we don't know if they even need approval. Possibly it may fit within the scope of their current license.
> 
> Or not.


Little tidbit from past system table: initially the D10 carry two more CONUS tpns: 17 and 22, now the tpns gone from CONUS network tables. 
Perhaps orientation of those reflectors/beams wasn't correct that time and DTV play with them as CONUS tpns ?


----------



## harsh

inourgrave said:


> D12 mirroring D10 doesn't mean that the TP will be the same.


Nor does it mean that they will be different. What little documentation we have (the D12 LOA application) says that, at least intially, they will be exactly the same for the spots on D10 that were working.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Of course, the beauty of all this is that in a pretty short timeframe, we'll know if the D10 "reset" was successful, as well as whatever that effort brings to the table in terms of any added bandwidth.

We're now likely a matter of weeks away from added HD LIL, as well as new HD channels.

So far, everything announced and documented has worked according to plan.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

harsh said:


> Nor does it mean that they will be different. What little documentation we have (the D12 LOA application) says that, at least intially, they will be exactly the same for the spots on D10 that were working.


That doesn't seem to be a meaningful answer. One think on which we agree is, we don't really know.


----------



## RyMcQ

DirectMan said:


> I looked at the D12 spot map for A4BA and based on the St George 37.1 degree N Latitute and 113.6 degree W Longitude, based on an eyeball view it looks like St. George is located just outside the orange band. The D* website indicates that HD SLC Locals are being offered.


I'm not totally sure that the website ever had it right. (Does anyone know of a time when the website said that St George didn't have local HD?) I'll see if the CSRs know anything.

Edit: According to the CSR and another guy in tech support, HD locals are not available in my zip code. I'm going to write to the office of the president to see if I can get any answers.


----------



## DirectMan

RyMcQ said:


> I'm not totally sure that the website ever had it right. (Does anyone know of a time when the website said that St George didn't have local HD?) I'll see if the CSRs know anything.


If you are a current D* subscriber and have a receiver that will display signal strength readings for 103(s) (spotbeams), what are your readings for transponders 21 & 22 (SLC locals). If my belief is correct there will be a significant improvement in readings between Monday night (now) and Wednesday morning June 2 (by which time I believe that LILs will be transferred from D10 to D12).


----------



## RyMcQ

I'm not a current subscriber because of the HD issue, but someone on this thread is. Hopefully, he'll chime in after tomorrow.


----------



## LilMountain

My current readings are T21=82 and T22=50. I am in Mississippi. The T21 reading has been in that range for some time. I just started getting a reading for T22 a week or so ago. The D12 Mappings show 11 active and 2 backup spot beams using those 2 transponders. Hope this information helps.


----------



## RAD

Happened to notice that on 103(cb) TP 1 -> 6 are all now reading zero. Checked three different receivers, all the same. Anyone else seeing this????


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> Happened to notice that on 103(cb) TP 1 -> 6 are all now reading zero. Checked three different receivers, all the same. Anyone else seeing this????


Confirmed.

Zeros are good. 

We do expect zero signal from D10 during the amelioration process, until testing begins.


----------



## GP245

Here in NYC, the same thing 1 > 6 all zeroes!


----------



## RAD

Yep, in this case zero's are good.

What clued me in was when I ran the STB receiver test it failed with a 43-411, Sat dish alignment problem. I wonder if this will cause problems with install techs setting up new systems and having it fail and tech's running around trying to figure out why if they don't know this is to be expected?


----------



## gpg

I'm getting all 0's on 103(cb)!


----------



## GP245

Same here - all 0s on cb!


----------



## RAD

GP245 said:


> Same here - all 0s on cb!


Yep, zero's on all of them now.


----------



## DirectMan

Maybe transfer of locals from D10 to D12 occurs tonight.


----------



## Sixto

DirectMan said:


> Maybe transfer of locals from D10 to D12 occurs tonight.


Sooner the better.

doctor j checked LiL over the weekend and didn't notice anything different (yet).


----------



## bobnielsen

I suspect the lack of 103(cb) is what is causing a system test to give a dish alignment error (which wasn't there a few days ago).


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> Sooner the better.
> 
> doctor j checked LiL over the weekend and didn't notice anything different (yet).


Looked again yesterday and nothing new.

Hopefully something good by 0500 hrs CDT in AM

Doctor j

EDIT: Several recent LIL downloads but trying to sort out the D10/D12 overlap before posting by gct.


----------



## HIGHWAY

103 cb 1-14 are all o


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HIGHWAY said:


> 103 cb 1-14 are all o


I checked this morning - all my levels were still 95+ on all 103cb transponders.

Just checked now - all at 0....they must have started the process on D10, with everything running now on D12.

More progress.


----------



## fratwell

HIGHWAY said:


> 103 cb 1-14 are all o


Likewise, all 0's for 103 cb 1-14


----------



## P Smith

D10 is down !


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> D10 is down !


Imagine that ... we're happy that D10 is down. 

Let's ameliorate!


----------



## thelucky1

Sixto said:


> Imagine that ... we're happy that D10 is down.
> 
> Let's ameliorate!


Sounds like they are on schedule and things are proceeding nicely...so far!


----------



## Carl Spock

Sixto said:


> Let's ameliorate!


It's the latest dance craze! All the kids are doing it!

Let's Ameliorate

_Let's ameliorate_
_I know that it's getting late_
_Mark down the time and date_
_The sat goes live_

_I say let's rectify_
_Turn it off and let it fly_
_D12 will get us by_
_Give me high five_

_Seventy-six degrees_
_There wasn't a guarantee_
_That they'd cure the disease_
_But it will thrive_

_Let's ameliorate_
_Now D10 is a clean slate_
_It's time to celebrate_
_All come alive_


----------



## FHSPSU67

Carl Spock said:


> It's the latest dance craze! All the kids are doing it!
> 
> Let's Ameliorate


Very nicely done!
WooHoo


----------



## SPACEMAKER

I used the term ameliorate here at work in regards to one of our metering systems and recieved blank stares. It was great.


----------



## Piratefan98

Down goes D-10 ..... Down goes D-10!


----------



## rey_1178

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I checked this morning - all my levels were still 95+ on all 103cb transponders.
> 
> Just checked now - all at 0....they must have started the process on D10, with everything running now on D12.
> 
> More progress.


thats great news!


----------



## Mark Walters

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I checked this morning - all my levels were still 95+ on all 103cb transponders.
> 
> Just checked now - all at 0....they must have started the process on D10, with everything running now on D12.
> 
> More progress.


same here


----------



## jefbal99

Did the HD LiLs move during the wee hours of the morning?


----------



## georule

So, they asked for a grant of authority as of 6/2, today. But we haven't seen an approval yet, right? Of course, it may have been given and there's a little bit of lag posting it publicly.


----------



## doctor j

jefbal99 said:


> Did the HD LiLs move during the wee hours of the morning?


I did a data check 0530 CDT this AM ; could see no obvious differences.
I'm sending data for others to review and will see what the experts can find.

Doctor j


----------



## Carl Spock

I just realised something during my morning shower.

You can sing the new hit song, Let's Ameliorate, to the tune of Bob Seger's Katmandu. It's even the same rhyming structure.

It was totally subconscious. My apologies to Mr. Seger.


----------



## Piratefan98

You people sure are late to the party. I've been using that word for years. For example, in a love-letter to my future wife, I said "honey, there is no problem too big for us to ameliorate".

As the old songs goes, I was ameliorating when ameliorating wasn't cool.

Jeff


----------



## Piratefan98

It's a little known fact that the musical group The Fixx ("Saved by Zero", etc) were originally known as the Ameliorators.










Cliff


----------



## ATARI

Piratefan98 said:


> It's a little known fact that the musical group The Fixx ("Saved by Zero", etc) were originally known as the Ameliorators.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cliff


I hereby nominate this the best post of June 2nd, 2010


----------



## bobnielsen

!rolling


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Well...D12 is working like a charm...best signal levels to date here (left photo).

The photo on the right shows the D10 levels as of this morning (which will remain at all "0's" until the reset is complete).


----------



## GP245

Wide fluctuations on my reception of D12 - currently jumping around - even some transponders varying by 4 points in a few seconds.

Strange things are happening!


----------



## doctor j

With D-10 and D-12 both having the same TPN number schedule for LIL's.
ie KA-low TPN #15 to 24 finding the "swap" may be difficult.

D-10 and D-12 CONUS have different # schedules.
D-10 CONUS TPN# 1 to 14 KA low
D-12 CONUS TPN# 9 to 24 KA high

Thus the swap by necessity required TPN # change.
The mapping was peculiar but appeared to be:
D-10 to D-12
9 to 9
10 to 10
1 to 11
2 to 12
3 to 13
4 to 14
5 to 15
6 to 16
7 to 17
8 to 18
New 19
New 20
11 to 21
12 to 22
13 to 23
14 to 24

All of this being said, I don't know how to tell if LIL swap completed.
I think it is.
Maybe some west or northwest areas can tell substantial changes in 103 s (spot) signal strengths as the only real sign.

There is a problem on how to move D-10 back online if a new PID is not produced as there is a duplication of TPN's # 9,10,11,12,13,& 14.

This is all making me dizzy!

Doctor j


----------



## hdtvfan0001

GP245 said:


> Wide fluctuations on my reception of D12 - currently jumping around - even some transponders varying by 4 points in a few seconds.
> 
> Strange things are happening!


I've been monitoring the levels for the past 30 minutes, and haven't seen any fluctuations at all here.


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> This is all making me dizzy!
> 
> Doctor j


Me too.


----------



## harsh

georule said:


> But we haven't seen an approval yet, right?


Right!


----------



## Go Beavs

doctor j said:


> With D-10 and D-12 both having the same TPN number schedule for LIL's.
> ie KA-low TPN #15 to 24 finding the "swap" may be difficult.
> 
> D-10 and D-12 CONUS have different # schedules.
> D-10 CONUS TPN# 1 to 14 KA low
> D-12 CONUS TPN# 9 to 24 KA high
> 
> Thus the swap by necessity required TPN # change.
> The mapping was peculiar but appeared to be:
> D-10 to D-12
> 9 to 9
> 10 to 10
> 1 to 11
> 2 to 12
> 3 to 13
> 4 to 14
> 5 to 15
> 6 to 16
> 7 to 17
> 8 to 18
> New 19
> New 20
> 11 to 21
> 12 to 22
> 13 to 23
> 14 to 24
> 
> All of this being said, I don't know how to tell if LIL swap completed.
> I think it is.
> *Maybe some west or northwest areas can tell substantial changes in 103 s (spot) signal strengths as the only real sign.*
> 
> There is a problem on how to move D-10 back online if a new PID is not produced as there is a duplication of TPN's # 9,10,11,12,13,& 14.
> 
> This is all making me dizzy!
> 
> Doctor j


Now that you say that...

Maybe wednsday last week I noticed that my locals, which come from transponder 21 on the 103(s) screen had changed from a consistant signal of 100 to bouncing around 97-98. Not a big change and I wrote it off as missalignment, but after reading this post I think it may be related.

Not substantial but it is a change.


----------



## Sixto

D10 FCC Grant - Testing (6/2/2010):Last Action: Grant of Authority

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=820319​All approved for testing!


----------



## Tulsacoker

Sixto do you think or know if D* get's the FCC approvals somewhat well before they are released as public information.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> D10 FCC Grant - Testing (6/2/2010):Last Action: Grant of Authority
> 
> <awaiting PDF>​All approved for testing!


Well hell, that was a quick fix


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> D10 FCC Grant - Testing (6/2/2010):Last Action: Grant of Authority
> 
> <awaiting PDF>​All approved for testing!


There were no 06/02/2010 dates on that this morning ~8am CDT when I looked, so the wheels they do grind. I would be fairly surprised if that status gets updated on the website before the fax gets sent to D*. . . unless the process is that website is the official status of record and some poor admin assistant at D* just has to sit there hitting refresh all day long.


----------



## Eddie L.

jefbal99 said:


> Well hell, that was a quick fix


Apparently, the RBR for D10 works much faster than for my 3 HR2x's!!! :lol:


----------



## harsh

Tulsacoker said:


> Sixto do you think or know if D* get's the FCC approvals somewhat well before they are released as public information.


The grant in question was dated today, so the turnaround doesn't have to be very long.


----------



## hidefman

It's not fixed yet guys. It's granting authority to begin testing beginning today. Doesn't mean DTV is in testing mode just yet. In fact, as long as we have all zeros on transponders, I would guess upload or amelioration is still in progress.


----------



## harsh

jefbal99 said:


> Well hell, that was a quick fix


The restorative procedure is part of this most recent grant.

ps: For those wanting to search for the documentation themselves, the FCC incorrectly listed the callsign of D10 as S2461 (it should be S2641).

For those who aren't interested in sparring with the the FCC database search engine: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=820319


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Sixto said:


> D10 FCC Grant - Testing (6/2/2010):Last Action: Grant of Authority
> 
> <awaiting PDF>​All approved for testing!


So does this mean the sky _isn't_ falling????


----------



## dpeters11

So seems there will be at minimum a week, their waiver of 25.208(c) becomes effective on June 9.


----------



## georule

dpeters11 said:


> . . . their waiver of 25.208(c) becomes effective on June 9.


Where did you get that? Not being aggressive, just wondering which doc states that?


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> D10 FCC Grant - Testing (6/2/2010):Last Action: Grant of Authority
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=820319​All approved for testing!


Have updated the post with the now posted PDF.


----------



## HoTat2

Unfortunately though it seems there is nothing about the specific "amelioration" process itself which requires any sort of special authorization from the FCC.

I was hoping there would be since such an STA request from DirecTV might list some of the actual details of the corrective procedure being applied for D10's spotbeams.


----------



## Sixto

dpeters11 said:


> So seems there will be at minimum a week, their waiver of 25.208(c) becomes effective on June 9.


That seems about right. Need some time before the testing.


----------



## dpeters11

georule said:


> Where did you get that? Not being aggressive, just wondering which doc states that?


Paragraph 9. DirecTV says that some tests will exceed limits for up to 10-15 seconds at a time. If they need a waiver of the rule to do those particular tests, it seems that the waiver isn't effective until the 9th. It's about the only part of the paragraph I could begin to understand


----------



## georule

dpeters11 said:


> Paragraph 9. DirecTV says that some tests will exceed limits for up to 10-15 seconds at a time. If they need a waiver of the rule to do those particular tests, it seems that the waiver isn't effective until the 9th. It's about the only part of the paragraph I could begin to understand


Well, yeah. Paragraph 9 of the grant attachment. . . which hadn't been posted publicly yet.


----------



## georule

Numbered Paragraph 4 of the Grant attachment. . . will we have visibility of those communications?


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Numbered Paragraph 4 of the Grant attachment. . . will we have visibility of those communications?


Usually I'd say no, but in this case the answer might be yes, based on the "in writing" clause and some of the recent communication. We'll see ...


----------



## weaver6

georule said:


> Well, yeah. Paragraph 9 of the grant attachment. . . which hadn't been posted publicly yet.


You mean the one linked in post 754?


----------



## Matt9876

During the upcoming testing southern Colorado will be the main hot spot for the high Ka burst on 103(cb),someone looking at just the right time will most certainly see some 100s on the transponder signal strength meter.

Information from STA.PDF


----------



## georule

weaver6 said:


> You mean the one linked in post 754?


Right. And commented on 22 mins before Sixto linked it. Perhaps the other guy just out-dueled Sixto in the refresh button wars. Those darn bathroom breaks!


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Right. And commented on 22 mins before Sixto linked it. Perhaps the other guy just out-dueled Sixto in the refresh button wars. Those darn bathroom breaks!


As always, they first update the application status, and then shortly after add the PDF to the attachments and comments sections of the application.

Any time you want the details, you first click on the FCC application link in post#1, and then just click on the other sections.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> As always, they first update the application status, and then shortly after add the PDF to the attachments and comments sections of the application.
> 
> Any time you want the details, you first click on the FCC application link in post#1, and then just click on the other sections.


We continue to appreciate the time and effort you put in to keep us informed.

With the great job you do on this, there's a natural instinct to take this for granted - but many of us will never do that.

Knowing just what is going on with the sats is truly amazing in may ways...that we can even know this kind of detail. It also helps to offset many questions and likely phone calls.

Thank you sir.


----------



## harsh

georule said:


> Well, yeah. Paragraph 9 of the grant attachment. . . which hadn't been posted publicly yet.


Not only had the PDF been posted, I linked to it in post #750.


----------



## DodgerKing

harsh said:


> Not only had the PDF been posted, I linked to it in post #750.


Well....

Aren't you special.


----------



## harsh

HoTat2 said:


> Unfortunately though it seems there is nothing about the specific "amelioration" process itself which requires any sort of special authorization from the FCC.


As Sixto suggested previously, Boeing is keenly interested in not having their dirty laundry aired in public documents.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> As Sixto suggested previously, Boeing is keenly interested in not having their dirty laundry aired in public documents.


That's a tough sell...when corrective actions are located in public documents.


----------



## HoTat2

harsh said:


> As Sixto suggested previously, Boeing is keenly interested in not having their dirty laundry aired in public documents.


My "hope" was though that regardless of what Boeing or DirecTV wants aired, if their amelioration process for D10 required any sort of special TT&C frequency coordination or arrangements they would be forced by law to reveal the nature of their proposed corrective procedure to the FCC in a STA request or some other.

But apparently it doesn't unfortunately .... :nono:


----------



## HoTat2

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We continue to appreciate the time and effort you put in to keep us informed.
> 
> With the great job you do on this, there's a natural instinct to take this for granted - but many of us will never do that.
> 
> Knowing just what is going on with the sats is truly amazing in may ways...that we can even know this kind of detail. It also helps to offset many questions and likely phone calls.
> 
> Thank you sir.


+1 here;

As I'll certainly never take it for granted in particular after my latest reminder of how special Sixto, doctor j, gct, and L.L.'s work is when the most recent DrecTV tech to visit here for an MRV install asked me to explain what 103(ca) was all about.

He did not have any knowledge of the new D12 satellite or what other birds are actually up there, the new BSS band, or much else.

He was impressed with my knowledge, but to be honest without Sixto and the others information I learned from here I couldn't have answered hardly any of his questions and appeared just as clueless as him.


----------



## georule

harsh said:


> Not only had the PDF been posted, I linked to it in post #750.


Ah, that explains it. I looked at #750 and got a different idea of what that link was so didn't punch it at the time.


----------



## dpeters11

HoTat2 said:


> +1 here;
> 
> As I'll certainly never take it for granted in particular after my latest reminder of how special Sixto, doctor j, gct, and L.L.'s work is when the most recent DrecTV tech to visit here for an MRV install asked me to explain what 103(ca) was all about.
> 
> He did not have any knowledge of the new D12 satellite or what other birds are actually up there, the new BSS band, or much else.
> 
> He was impressed with my knowledge, but to be honest without Sixto and the others information I learned from here I couldn't have answered hardly any of his questions and appeared just as clueless as him.


I hope that's not the norm. I can just imagine a tech trying to figure out why he's getting all 0s on D10..."Dang, 90+ on everything except 103(cb), what the heck is going on?"


----------



## je4755

dpeters11 said:


> I hope that's not the norm. I can just imagine a tech trying to figure out why he's getting all 0s on D10..."Dang, 90+ on everything except 103(cb), what the heck is going on?"


I recently had a dish realignment; the tech was not aware D10 temporarily had moved its location to "ameliorate" spot beam problems (and, consequently, the dish might have to be readjusted after D10 again is active). I told him -- and two CSRs -- about the remarkably-useful information available on DBSTalk.com. So, spreading the word to DirecTV employees with whom I am in contact!


----------



## Sixto

Tomorrow's (6/4/2010) Public Notice:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=820847​


----------



## Groundhog45

Sixto said:


> Tomorrow's (6/4/2010) Public Notice:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=820847​


WooHoo. Sounds like they're ready to test out the "fix" and float it back home.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's a tough sell...when corrective actions are located in public documents.


Which document details the "restorative procedure"? The application, grant and supporting technical explanation seem to speak only to "additional testing".


----------



## jsmuga

I have signals on 103 cb again.


----------



## GP245

Just noticed that 103 (cb) is back in service - as in the past, transponders 
1-14!

Welcome home!


----------



## Rob

Confirmed. I have signal.


----------



## ATARI

Time to update the title of this thread.


----------



## badhabit2112

This may have been asked before, but how will we know if the fix worked?


----------



## Santi360HD

good news! I want D10 back! so that the annoying searching for signal goes away when I change to some channels..they do come in but not as quick as they used to..Im hoping the D10 maintenance was the issue for that....the SD channels always come up only the HD counterparts were searching for signal...


----------



## Sixto

jsmartin99 said:


> I have signals on 103 cb again.


If D10 is truly back online, after the corrective procedure, this would be outstanding news.

Not confirmed yet, but hopeful.


----------



## Brit_in_WV

jsmartin99 said:


> I have signals on 103 cb again.


Back on here also.


----------



## LameLefty

Yep, I checked this morning and I have signals back on 103(cb), as strong as before.

Even better, my 103(ca) signals are all up 3 - 5 points this morning too.


----------



## ffemtreed

I had signal as well on 103cb this morning.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Hopefully the testing of the spots will go well when they begin trying it out next week


----------



## doabbs

I thought they weren't authorized to attempt the amelioration procedure until next week? At least the mention of exceeding the limits of the frequency.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

We get signal. All your D10 are belong to us.


----------



## Sixto

doabbs said:


> I thought they weren't authorized to attempt the amelioration procedure until next week? At least the mention of exceeding the limits of the frequency.


That was just for the testing. The "fix" was separate.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So new HD next week?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Who knows, maybe


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Just tested and saw these levels (*not* at 0) for D10 as of 5 minutes ago....I suspect that we'll see this coming and going as tests are conducted for a bit yet...


----------



## thelucky1

I have signal as well on 103cb this morning.


----------



## georule

So what's the deal with TP15 and TP16 on 103cb? Are we hoping that the amelioration will allow them to light those up (in the "103cb" context --whether they are currently being used elsewise in another context, I don't know) if it works?


----------



## uncrules

georule said:


> So what's the deal with TP15 and TP16 on 103cb? Are we hoping that the amelioration will allow them to light those up if it works?


The fix was for spot beams, not CONUS. D10 is only licensed to use 14 CONUS transponders


----------



## georule

uncrules said:


> The fix was for spot beams, not CONUS. D10 is only licensed to use 14 CONUS transponders


Yeah, I know what the fix was for. I was just wondering if with their wounded bird they perhaps made other adjustments that an ameliorated bird would no longer require.

But if D10 is only licensed for 14, then it doesn't sound like it. It's an identical satellite to D12 isn't it? Those extra two transponders are actually there, doing something else other than CONUS?


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Yeah, I know what the fix was for. I was just wondering if with their wounded bird they perhaps made other adjustments that an ameliorated bird would no longer require.
> 
> But if D10 is only licensed for 14, then it doesn't sound like it. It's an identical satellite to D12 isn't it? Those extra two transponders are actually there, doing something else other than CONUS?


D10 and D12 are not the same. The D10 CONUS transponders are Ka-Lo, D12 CONUS is Ka-Hi.

D10 transponders 15 and 16 are within the spot beam Ka-Lo frequency range for both D10 and D12.

They did use D10 TP15&16 in the very early days, and there has been some speculation that with both D10 and D12 active and fully functional that they might re-swizzle the plan, but it's been speculation. It would require taking that frequency range away from LiL for both D10 and D12.


----------



## Skyboss

Sixto said:


> It would require taking that frequency range away from LiL for both D10 and D12.


Interesting. Perhaps fixing the spots on D10 will allow this to occur. 2 more conus beams would be sweet.


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> D10 and D12 are not the same. The D10 CONUS transponders are Ka-Lo, D12 CONUS is Ka-Hi.
> 
> D10 transponders 15 and 16 are within the spot beam Ka-Lo frequency range for both D10 and D12.
> 
> They did use D10 TP15&16 in the very early days, and there has been some speculation that with both D10 and D12 active and fully functional that they might re-swizzle the plan, but it's been speculation. It would require taking that frequency range away from LiL for both D10 and D12.


Ah. Yeah if it is primarily a frequency overlap issue with the spots keeping TP15-16 out of CONUS use, then an increase in functional spot units, or better functioning spot units, wouldn't seem likely to have much impact on the thinking --unless D10's amelioration in some fashion improves frequency utilization of the spots.


----------



## LilMountain

With all the D10/D12 action and possible changes, I think the following table on D* satellites' capacities is really interesting. The future should be very bright.


----------



## slimoli

In plain English, is the D10 already ameliorated and just waiting to be tested next week ? Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> In plain English, is the D10 already ameliorated and just waiting to be tested next week ? Thanks.


Good question.

Based on the return of the CONUS signal today, I'd say 70/30 yes.

But it also wouldn't surprise me if the signal disappears again.

Also, they can start testing now, it's just the "exceeding" that needs to wait.


----------



## Dolly

slimoli said:


> In plain English, is the D10 already ameliorated and just waiting to be tested next week ? Thanks.


Ameliorated is plain English :lol: Sorry I just couldn't resist that one  Well with all the fury over Dish with their Free HD all I can say is D* had better get those Sats. in order as quickly as possible!


----------



## Sixto

FCC filing mentioned moving the national HD back to D10.

Now some evidence: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2485940


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> FCC filing mentioned moving the national HD back to D10.
> 
> Now some evidence: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2485940


Wow, that was fast! Great job DIRECTV. New HD this Wednesday? :grin:


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> Wow, that was fast! Great job DIRECTV. New HD this Wednesday? :grin:


It's going to be a little bit. Quite possibly a few weeks, but nice to see things progressing.

This is just guide data, they might not actually put the real test channels up until after the LiL testing, if they need to orient the satellite differently for the LiL testing, or if more "fixing/tweaking" to come.

Still, all good.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> It's going to be a little bit. Quite possibly a few weeks, but nice to see things progressing.
> 
> This is just guide data, they might not actually put the real test channels up until after the LiL testing, if they need to orient the satellite differently for the LiL testing, or if more "fixing/tweaking" to come.
> 
> Still, all good.


Yeah - everything seems to be going well so far.

The realistic expectation is likely 2 more weeks of testing, reloading, tweaking...then later in June, we'll likely hear if the corrections worked, and see more HD.


----------



## harsh

Hutchinshouse said:


> Wow, that was fast! Great job DIRECTV. New HD this Wednesday? :grin:


Satelliteracer is saying June 30. There is little reason to guess otherwise.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...then later in June, we'll likely hear if the corrections worked, and see more HD.


I suspect that sharing of the results of the "restorative procedure" is very unlikely. Further, analysis of signals won't likely lead to being able to tell one way or the other as the spot beam payloads would appear to be indistinguishable.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Satelliteracer is saying June 30. There is little reason to guess otherwise.


To quote accurately, the statement was "end-of-month".

Quite possibly 6/30, but (as we know) it's a fluid situation.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> I suspect that sharing of the results of the "restorative procedure" is very unlikely. Further, analysis of signals won't likely lead to being able to tell one way or the other as the spot beam payloads would appear to be indistinguishable.


If there's total success of the corrective procedure, it is quite possible that we'll find some documentation noting the successful result (not necessarily the details).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> If there's total success of the corrective procedure, it is quite possible that we'll find some documentation noting the successful result (not necessarily the details).


Agreed. The correction "project" either works or it doesn't....likely no more details.

Thanks for your continued expertise and information Sixto.


----------



## harsh

LilMountain said:


> With all the D10/D12 action and possible changes, I think the following table on D* satellites' capacities is really interesting.


The table is certainly interesting, but the information must be interpreted. In several cases, the listed capacities aren't additive. For example, D12's spot beam capability entirely overlaps that of D10.

Additionally, DIRECTV has somewhat marginalized DIRECTV 5 (110W, currently carrying no conventional programming) and DIRECTV 7S (119W) with the SL3 dish.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> To quote accurately, the statement was "end-of-month".


EOM is very specific (and it happens to be a Wednesday ). As I recall, it wasn't one of those "by" kind of dates. Do you think this leaves the door open for an earlier date?


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> EOM is very specific (and it happens to be a Wednesday ). As I recall, it wasn't one of those "by" kind of dates. Do you think this leaves the door open for an earlier date?


Yes.

High odds for 6/30, but door open. Yes, just a crack.


----------



## LilMountain

Right you are. But, it does make for good press.


----------



## pfp

harsh said:


> EOM is very specific (and it happens to be a Wednesday ). As I recall, it wasn't one of those "by" kind of dates. Do you think this leaves the door open for an earlier date?


also end of Q2 / 1st half of 2010.


----------



## georule

The EOM comment was given in context of "setting expectations".

To me, that does not foreclose an "under promise/over deliver" scenario, should they find themselves in position to provide one.


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> High odds for 6/30, but door open. Yes, just a crack.


End of month and June 30th have similar meanings ... unless your calendar has a June 31st. :eek2:

The vagueness of end of month is more accurate, although people tend to turn all estimates into date specific promises regardless of how vague the time frame.


----------



## tonyd79

georule said:


> The EOM comment was given in context of "setting expectations".
> 
> To me, that does not foreclose an "under promise/over deliver" scenario, should they find themselves in position to provide one.


Usually, in the business world, when you are setting expectations, you plan to exceed them. So, it often means that or better. Not usually worse. But it can.


----------



## Carl Spock

harsh said:


> EOM is very specific (and it happens to be a Wednesday ). As I recall, it wasn't one of those "by" kind of dates. Do you think this leaves the door open for an earlier date?





pfp said:


> also end of Q2 / 1st half of 2010.


It's also the anniversary of the Tunguska event, but let's hope that has nothing to do with D10.


----------



## CTJon

3:00 pm at the moment. I have no local channels get 771 searching for signal on them all. Sunny out with no wind or.
Could this be related to what is being switched / tested?
Will get signal strength's when I can get spouse away from watching something.

Oh location north central CT


----------



## dwcolvin

CTJon said:


> 3:00 pm at the moment. I have no local channels get 771 searching for signal on them all. Sunny out with no wind or.
> Could this be related to what is being switched / tested?
> Will get signal strength's when I can get spouse away from watching something.
> 
> Oh location north central CT


Stuttering and SFSS on local HD here now (Raleigh-Durham, NC). *Something's* going on... :goodandba


----------



## harsh

tonyd79 said:


> Usually, in the business world, when you are setting expectations, you plan to exceed them. So, it often means that or better. Not usually worse. But it can.


In the context of DIRECTV, when was they last time they beat a satelliteracer heads-up?


----------



## levibluewa

Signals on 103cb are back...all in the 90s.


----------



## JosephB

Why are they even bothering to move stuff back to DirecTV 10. Why not just add the new channels to D10 and leave the existing channels on D12 (at least as far as it comes to national channels)?


----------



## HoosierBoy

Looks like 103cb is still being tweaked. 30 minutes ago, all TP's in the 90's. Now some are zero. Good to know they are working weekends!


----------



## Sixto

JosephB said:


> Why are they even bothering to move stuff back to DirecTV 10. Why not just add the new channels to D10 and leave the existing channels on D12 (at least as far as it comes to national channels)?


There are some MDU installations that can't get D12 (yet). Posts earlier in this thread. It makes sense to return all to "normal".


----------



## georule

tonyd79 said:


> Usually, in the business world, when you are setting expectations, you plan to exceed them. So, it often means that or better. Not usually worse. But it can.


Yes, of course, "stuff happens". The only way to avoid that in such situations is to say nothing until one bright day you deliver. Personally, I prefer a model where a company gives me their best guess on future visibility, somewhat conservatively. Knowledge is power, and I like having power. The trade-off is, you have to recognize there is a trade-off on visibility vs certainty and be generous in your judgements on certainty in return for having received greater visibility.

I had the other model in video delivery for many years, and found it much more annoying personally. I prefer D*s model.


----------



## georule

JosephB said:


> Why are they even bothering to move stuff back to DirecTV 10. Why not just add the new channels to D10 and leave the existing channels on D12 (at least as far as it comes to national channels)?


Well, "load balancing" is an interesting topic. On the one hand, you decrease the amount of work you have to do if one of the two fails. On the other hand, you've increased the possibility that a failure of one of them will have a significant impact no matter which one it is that fails. So there are trade-offs. On the one hand, by load-balancing you decrease your time to maximum possible recovery for the still-functioning hardware available to you. On the other hand, you increase to a degree the chances that any failure is a big "ouchie" during that recovery period.


----------



## georule

I should have added that because there is already redundancy built into each satellite, that would put a thumb on the scale in favor of load-balancing. A partial failure is a whole lot more likely than a total failure.


----------



## Rob

I'm getting low readings on transponder 4, 66 right now. Smithsonian, CN HD, FBNHD, SpeedHD are all pixelated. 

I'm in California and all my readings have been in the 70's/80's for the last 3 years, but this is the first time I have had pixelation problems.


----------



## kzzz

Central Montana here. Usually I get mid to high 80's on 103 ca and cb. This morning they are low 50's down to 20's with an occasional 0 on 103 ca. 103 cb is a little higher. Not good!


----------



## Davenlr

Central Arkansas: Both D10 and D12 conus readings are about the same here as they were pre-procedure.


----------



## bobnielsen

Near Seattle: 103(ca) 80-95, 103(cb) 81-88. These seem about normal for my installation.


----------



## dreadlk

Florida here, 103CA is having some low signals overall and complete dropouts when it rains and it's been raining alot!!! Scifi channel jumped out during a show and also Nat Geo. Man this sucks.


----------



## adkinsjm

This isn't the thread for pixelation problems or signal strength, except for D10.


----------



## kzzz

adkinsjm said:


> This isn't the thread for pixelation problems or signal strength, except for D10.


I apoligize if this wasn't the correct topic for this thread. I just felt that since my low signals were isolated to D10 and D12 and there was discussion about the signals fluctuating lately, it was on topic.


----------



## iceturkee

dreadlk said:


> Florida here, 103CA is having some low signals overall and complete dropouts when it rains and it's been raining alot!!! Scifi channel jumped out during a show and also Nat Geo. Man this sucks.


that could explain why i has ridiculous rain fade sunday afternoon. we had a few heavy storms in daytona but i was losing even the sd for long periods of time.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

I also lost channels to "rain fade" when it really was not bad.


----------



## RAD

Remember, it doesn't even have to be raining at your location and still get 'rain fade'. All that needs to happen is have a very high amount of water vapor, like in a very large storm cloud, between your dish and the satellite and you can lose signal.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Understood. I went outside and looked, and it was not bad at all. We had a great deal of pixelation and dropouts while watching Food Network between 8 and 11.


----------



## seltech

RAD said:


> Remember, it doesn't even have to be raining at your location and still get 'rain fade'. All that needs to happen is have a very high amount of water vapor, like in a very large storm cloud, between your dish and the satellite and you can lose signal.


In Maine this is what happens, the low sat elevation is to blame I imagine. If I start loosing signal their is usually a rather intense thunderstorm 15 minutes out


----------



## Lord Vader

seltech said:


> If I start *loosing *signal their is usually a rather intense thunderstorm 15 minutes out


What happens if you *tighten *your signal?


----------



## inourgrave

georule said:


> Well, "load balancing" is an interesting topic. On the one hand, you decrease the amount of work you have to do if one of the two fails. On the other hand, you've increased the possibility that a failure of one of them will have a significant impact no matter which one it is that fails. So there are trade-offs. On the one hand, by load-balancing you decrease your time to maximum possible recovery for the still-functioning hardware available to you. On the other hand, you increase to a degree the chances that any failure is a big "ouchie" during that recovery period.


Word on the street is no to the load balance. Of course subject to change.


----------



## inourgrave

Sixto said:


> There are some MDU installations that can't get D12 (yet). Posts earlier in this thread. It makes sense to return all to "normal".


Hadn't heard about this, why for the MDU?


----------



## Sixto

All indications are D10 content goes back to D10, from the filing, and the guide data.

Makes sense, especially with the MDU issue.


----------



## Sixto

inourgrave said:


> Hadn't heard about this, why for the MDU?


From post #673:


> DIRECTV has temporarily relocated some of the national HD channels to the new 103 A-band satellite. This temporary move is part of the overall plan to increase HD service capacity in the coming months. As a result, the HD national channels previously located on the 103 B-band frequency slot will temporarily not be accessible to IPAdvantage customers. IPAdvantage customers with models HR20i-100 will see a black or gray screen when tuning to these HD channels. A list of affected HD channels is attached.


Haven't confirmed this, but seems legit.


----------



## Standtall29

When will D10 be up and running again? Was nice to see some Hd this past weekend in Florida, Can't even get it on the boat in Nassau. Come On Directv Fix this problem, you guys are the best.


----------



## Sixto

Standtall29 said:


> When will D10 be up and running again? Was nice to see some Hd this past weekend in Florida, Can't even get it on the boat in Nassau. Come On Directv Fix this problem, you guys are the best.


June.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> June.


Slacker! You could at least give a decade...


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Slacker! You could at least give a decade...


2010.


----------



## mobandit

Sixto said:


> 2010.


Now you're just showing off...


----------



## HIGHWAY

he is good so he can show off


----------



## curt8403

HIGHWAY said:


> he is good so he can show off


 there are about 9 people who can show off. 
The Mods, Sixto, LameLefty, and VOS


----------



## Sixto

Sixto - Saturday said:


> To quote accurately, the statement was "end-of-month".
> 
> Quite possibly 6/30, but (as we know) it's a fluid situation.





harsh - Saturday said:


> EOM is very specific (and it happens to be a Wednesday ). As I recall, it wasn't one of those "by" kind of dates. Do you think this leaves the door open for an earlier date?





Sixto - Saturday said:


> Yes.





Satelliteracer - Today said:


> ...you're likely to see it SOONER, instead.


----------



## tonyd79

tonyd79 - Saturday said:


> Usually, in the business world, when you are setting expectations, you plan to exceed them. So, it often means that or better. Not usually worse. But it can.





harsh - Saturday said:


> In the context of DIRECTV, when was they last time they beat a satelliteracer heads-up?





Satelliteracer - Monday said:


> Probably not.....you're likely to see it SOONER, instead.


Do you live in the real word, harsh? Do you experience people and business outside of an internet forum? I do.


----------



## jasonblair

Sixto said:


> D10 FCC Grant - For Testing after the Corrective Action (6/2/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=820319​


I had no idea Brian Regan was behind all of this!


----------



## georule

So, stage 1 (whatever they did with the signal strengths at 0s) seems to have gone very quick, and stage 2 (higher power testing) is on the books for tomorrow. . . . what's the odds she's hiking her skirts for her old position in another 48 hrs or so?

Given the testing of D12 at 76, and other hints as to how simple this issue turned out to be, I've got to think there's a pretty good chance the testing required in Stage 2 is very pro-forma.

And with Satelliteracer starting to pull gently on the outside limits of his target date marginally, I have to think the results of Stage 1 were very satisfactory and Stage 2 is not expected to be any different.


----------



## Alan Gordon

georule said:


> And with Satelliteracer starting to pull gently on the outside limits of his target date marginally, I have to think the results of Stage 1 were very satisfactory and Stage 2 is not expected to be any different.


I'd say that last week's announcement of 19 new HD-LIL markets next year is a pretty good sign as well! 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> So, stage 1 (whatever they did with the signal strengths at 0s) seems to have gone very quick, and stage 2 (higher power testing) is on the books for tomorrow. . . . what's the odds she's hiking her skirts for her old position in another 48 hrs or so?
> 
> Given the testing of D12 at 76, and other hints as to how simple this issue turned out to be, I've got to think there's a pretty good chance the testing required in Stage 2 is very pro-forma.
> 
> And with Satelliteracer starting to pull gently on the outside limits of his target date marginally, I have to think the results of Stage 1 were very satisfactory and Stage 2 is not expected to be any different.


Probably some good nuggets in there.

Safe to say, going well ...


----------



## harsh

georule said:


> Given the testing of D12 at 76, and other hints as to how simple this issue turned out to be, I've got to think there's a pretty good chance the testing required in Stage 2 is very pro-forma.


Does this consider that D12 didn't need a high power waiver as part of its testing regimen??? It wouldn't appear that all things are equal.


----------



## smiddy

The important thing here is that DirecTV continues to work issues, BIG and small. They are always finding ways to improve their product, this is a prime example of that. Go DirecTV - 10, get well soon!


----------



## hancox

smiddy said:


> The important thing here is that DirecTV continues to *CAUSE *issues, BIG and small. They are always finding ways to improve their product, this is a prime example of that. Go DirecTV - 10, get well soon!


Fixed for you. Seriously?


----------



## LameLefty

hancox said:


> Fixed for you. Seriously?


Don't spam the thread with absurd snark. The internet has enough of that as it is.

Seriously. :nono:


----------



## georule

harsh said:


> Does this consider that D12 didn't need a high power waiver as part of its testing regimen??? It wouldn't appear that all things are equal.


There was permission for D12 to exceed max licensed power by up to 7dB for testing (which was the same language used in the D10 request). The primary difference between D12 and D10 in this regard seems to be closeness in degrees to other sats (D10 being closer), requiring some back and forth with the FCC and other sat operators. The max power rules seem primarily aimed at not interfering with the sat-to-ground communications of other sats in the neighborhood. Presumably 76 degrees was chosen as a test location at least in part for the amount of separation from other sats it offers. There is a reference to 9 degrees separation in the D12 app, but only 6 degrees in the D10 app for amelioration.


----------



## hancox

...as opposed to the pom-poms above? Right, none of that around...


----------



## wavemaster

hancox said:


> ...as opposed to the pom-poms above? Right, none of that around...


Pom-Poms are ALWAYS allowed! Just don't complain about anything.

So are they expecting the high power testing to go on today? Will we see it on the sig pages, or will we be blind to it?


----------



## harsh

georule said:


> There was permission for D12 to exceed max licensed power by up to 7dB for testing (which was the same language used in the D10 request).


Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

georule said:


> There was permission for D12 to exceed max licensed power by up to 7dB for testing (which was the same language used in the D10 request).


I'm sure the the Dish folks would appreciate finally getting a full HD signal. :lol:


wavemaster said:


> Pom-Poms are ALWAYS allowed!


But then - I look terrible in a skirt. 

As for D10's testing itself....I suspect we have one more week of testing, followed by a week to re-position the unit. Perhaps during that time frame, we'll learns something about any successes.

Based on the timing of everything reported to date, as well as Sixto and Satelliteracer's information...I'm figuring the next flurry of additional HD channel activations will come the week of June 28th. Ironically, that Wednesday (the common day for new content launches) is June 30th - that would still be June I guess.


----------



## LameLefty

hancox said:


> ...as opposed to the pom-poms above? Right, none of that around...


There are "Glass Half Full" people and "Glass Half Empty" people.

And then there are apparently "Glass Full of Piss" people. :lol:


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> There are "Glass Half Full" people and "Glass Half Empty" people.
> 
> And then there are apparently "Glass Full of Piss" people. :lol:


And then there are those who wile away the hours trying to classify other people.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

harsh said:


> And then there are those who wile away the hours trying to classify other people.


And then there are those who...ah forget it.:nono2:


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> And then there are those who wile away the hours trying to classify other people.


There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary - and those who don't.

If the topic of the thread is the corrective action being done to D10 perhaps everyone should get back to it?
Then the 10 types of people can be those on topic and those not. (Or preferably: 1 type of people - those on topic.)

Please ignore off topic posts and report problematic posts. Thanks.

:backtotop


----------



## georule

There are two kinds of people --those who think there are two kinds of people, and those who don't.

Should we expect to see some changes in signal strength on our boxes for 103cb during this overpowered testing? Tho you'd likely have to be watching closely as it is supposed to only be for short time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Good to continue to see solid signals from both D10 (left screen photo) and D12 (right screen photo) during the D10 test phase. 

In checking on D10 periodically several times a day and almost every day - for the past week now its been pretty steady in transponder readings.

D12 has also been pretty steady.

Now just waiting to learn about any successes in the "fix" process for the previous problem few transponders...


----------



## Ernie

georule said:


> ...
> 
> Should we expect to see some changes in signal strength on our boxes for 103cb during this overpowered testing? Tho you'd likely have to be watching closely as it is supposed to only be for short time.


They will probably be 0 since the testing will be done with un-modulated carriers. The signal strength indicator in the boxes is based on error correction information in the modulated signal.

Ernie


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> As for D10's testing itself....I suspect we have one more week of testing, followed by a week to re-position the unit. Perhaps during that time frame, we'll learns something about any successes.
> 
> Based on the timing of everything reported to date, as well as Sixto and Satelliteracer's information...I'm figuring the next flurry of additional HD channel activations will come the week of June 28th. Ironically, that Wednesday (the common day for new content launches) is June 30th - that would still be June I guess.


DUDE! Talk about being behind on the times... 

New HD channels will be available "SOONER"! (LINK and LINK)

While some people are guessing the 16th (most likely due to Doug Brott's signature), most people are assuming that the 23rd will be the date! 

~Alan<~~~~~~~~Who is looking forward to a more exciting "Festivus" than the last one...


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> And then there are those who wile away the hours trying to classify other people.


Don't worry, in most cases it only takes seconds.


----------



## syphix

Alan Gordon said:


> DUDE! Talk about being behind on the times...
> 
> New HD channels will be available "SOONER"! (LINK and LINK)
> 
> While some people are guessing the 16th (most likely due to Doug Brott's signature), most people are assuming that the 23rd will be the date!
> 
> ~Alan<~~~~~~~~*Who is looking forward to a more exciting "Festivus" than the last one...*


If D10 is not back in place by the 23rd, I doubt we'll see more than 5 HD channels. D12 had 10 more national slots than D10, and we've used up 5 in the last "Festivus".


----------



## Stuart Sweet

harsh said:


> And then there are those who wile away the hours trying to classify other people.


Personally I wile away the hours conversing with the flowers and taking with the rain.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> DUDE! Talk about being behind on the times...
> 
> New HD channels will be available "SOONER"! (LINK and LINK)


*Could* and *will* have are two different things. 

No later than 6/30 may be the most accurate lingo...


----------



## tunce

Stuart Sweet said:


> Personally I wile away the hours conversing with the flowers and taking with the rain.


That's so nice.

:lol:


----------



## ATARI

James Long said:


> There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary - and those who don't.
> 
> If the topic of the thread is the corrective action being done to D10 perhaps everyone should get back to it?
> Then the 10 types of people can be those on topic and those not. (Or preferably: 1 type of people - those on topic.)
> 
> Please ignore off topic posts and report problematic posts. Thanks.
> 
> :backtotop


OK, you asked for it:

There are 010 kinds of people in the world, those who know gray code, those who don't know gray code, and those who think gray code is binary.


----------



## georule

syphix said:


> If D10 is not back in place by the 23rd, I doubt we'll see more than 5 HD channels. D12 had 10 more national slots than D10, and we've used up 5 in the last "Festivus".


So far as I saw, Satelliteracer didn't actually use the 23rd in public, he just suggested that it might be earlier than the 30th. D*'s recent history of love for "hump day" leads people in that direction.

But I think she's got to be "home" well before the 23rd for that to happen. They've got to unload D12, reload D10, and get the 24 new channels up on D12. That strikes me as a non-trivial process. Plus the move itself looks like a few day process (tho the TLEs from last time are capable of multiple interpretations).

So, if the 23rd is really in play, I think she needs to start moving back home this week, or no later than early next week. Even to start moving on the 14th feels a little rushed to me to make a 24 chan Festivus on the 23rd with the other chinese fire drill components required as well.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *Could* and *will* have are two different things.
> 
> No later than 6/30 may be the most accurate lingo...





georule said:


> So far as I saw, Satelliteracer didn't actually use the 23rd in public, he just suggested that it might be earlier than the 30th.


Yup...that was kinda my point in the previous post as well.


----------



## slimoli

16,23 or 30 , I don't care. We will have Festivus SOON and that's great.


----------



## Tulsacoker

georule said:


> But I think she's got to be "home" well before the 23rd for that to happen. They've got to unload D12, reload D10, and get the 24 new channels up on D12. That strikes me as a non-trivial process. Plus the move itself looks like a few day process (tho the TLEs from last time are capable of multiple interpretations).
> 
> So, if the 23rd is really in play, I think she needs to start moving back home this week, or no later than early next week. Even to start moving on the 14th feels a little rushed to me to make a 24 chan Festivus on the 23rd with the other chinese fire drill components required as well.


While you may be very well right.......who's to say that they cannot start (or already) loading D10 back and testing the new channels before they move D10 into it's final location then once it's back it is ready to go!


----------



## wavemaster

Does anyone know yet if it was software or a physical issue? If it was software, I wonder if they will see the same issue on MDU installs they did on D12?


----------



## georule

Tulsacoker said:


> While you may be very well right.......who's to say that they cannot start (or already) loading D10 back and testing the new channels before they move D10 into it's final location then once it's back it is ready to go!


The 24 new channels have to go on D12. There's no room for most of them until D12 is actually offloaded of the old D10 channels back to D10, which requires D10 actually broadcasting those channels to customers. Presumably the old D10 information is still on D10, so that's a time savings over the original procedure where they had to load up D12 with the D10 information, and possibly explains why IDs were duplicated on D12 --they knew those channels were going back to D10 anyway.

But would they shift the active D12 channels (not including the new 5 already active) back to D10 as part of the same process that brings up the new 24 on D12? I can't see how that would work. So that's at least a two-step process right there.

If they get D10 "home" and broadcasting its old lineup on the 16th, then they've got a week to get the new 24 loaded up on D12 and ready to go on the 23rd (again, that's even assuming the 23rd is in play). Plus, they've got launch partners for some of these channels --I would think those partners would appreciate at least a few days certainty as to launch date/time in advance.

Speculative, sure, but that's the way I see it if the 23rd is in play.

Edit: I suppose you could do "A man needs to get a fox, chicken, and corn across the river but can only carry one at a time" kind of deal shuffling stuff back and forth between D10 and D12 that would allow you to implement it all at once. The duplicated IDs would make that possible. Maybe. In theory.


----------



## NotNterLaced

Has anyone been having local pixellation problems since moving to D12? I'm in the Richmond VA DMA in Powhatan county.


----------



## bgothard72

How much room does D12 have for National HD once it's unloaded. I would hope more than the 30 channels.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yeah, quite a bit more than that. Sixto had a good estimate somewhere.


----------



## Vinny*

NotNterLaced said:


> Has anyone been having local pixellation problems since moving to D12? I'm in the Richmond VA DMA in Powhatan county.


I'm in Chesterfield. Our locals are on D11. The only channel I have a problem with is WTVR channel 6. It's been going for over a month now. The sound drops out every once in a while. No problems on any other channels since the move though.


----------



## bakers12

georule said:


> ...But I think she's got to be "home" well before the 23rd for that to happen...


D10 is authorized to transmit to customers while it is moving back to "home" so time is not wasted while it's moving.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ATARI said:


> OK, you asked for it:
> 
> There are 010 kinds of people in the world, those who know gray code, those who don't know gray code, and those who think gray code is binary.


Ah but you see gray code is binary--of a very different sort.  (Yes, I do know exactly of what you speak, I suspect you know the different point of view it takes for what I say.)  

D10 has seen the light,
Dr. Johnny Fever got the boogers cleared up,
And we'll have more HD anon...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Been out all day ... looks like some interesting *stuff* earlier ...

My 2 cents on the pom-poms ... speaking for myself ... the intention is to report facts ... and lean towards optimism relative to those facts ... reasonable optimism ... while staying realistic.

Relative to signal levels ... CONUS may be done, back to normal, and stay that way. There's also a possibility that there's a need to orient D10 a special way to do the "exceed" testing on the spots. Not fully clear (yet), but don't expect this to take very long.

Timing of move from D12 back to D10 ... technically they need to notify the FCC that the testing is done, but they certainly can restart D10 with the previous CONUS channels, while the Drift back is occurring. Wouldn't be surprised to see things back to normal in the next week or two.

Then the new stuff on D12 after, but "sooner" then previous worst case.


----------



## RCoop

Stuart Sweet said:


> Personally I wile away the hours conversing with the flowers and taking with the rain.


huh, thought I was alone


----------



## syphix

"Sooner" could mean "next week", according to Satelliteracer!!
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2492927#post2492927


> Festivus is tentatively scheduled for next week. Double digit Festivus coming, many of the Premium variety but also some that are part of base package offerings.


Does this reflect good news for D10?


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> "Sooner" could mean "next week", according to Satelliteracer!!
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2492927#post2492927
> Does this reflect good news for D10?


Yes.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

bgothard72 said:


> How much room does D12 have for National HD once it's unloaded. I would hope more than the 30 channels.


D12 can do 80 national HD channels. D* press conference power point thingy said it was going to add "up to 70 national HD channels" this year.


----------



## georule

syphix said:


> "Sooner" could mean "next week", according to Satelliteracer!!
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2492927#post2492927
> Does this reflect good news for D10?


Hrmph. Satrac edited it to "few weeks" later. Caution or correction?


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Hrmph. Satrac edited it to "few weeks" later. Caution or correction?


A correction. All is fine.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> DUDE! Talk about being behind on the times...
> 
> New HD channels will be available "SOONER"! (LINK and LINK)





hdtvfan0001 said:


> *Could* and *will* have are two different things.
> 
> No later than 6/30 may be the most accurate lingo...


LINK and LINK

:raspberry:raspberry:raspberry:raspberry:raspberry​
~Alan


----------



## hilmar2k

georule said:


> Hrmph. Satrac edited it to "few weeks" later. Caution or correction?


He later poster it will be week after next. No reason for panic.


----------



## inourgrave

Sixto said:


> Been out all day ... looks like some interesting *stuff* earlier ...
> 
> My 2 cents on the pom-poms ... speaking for myself ... the intention is to report facts ... and lean towards optimism relative to those facts ... reasonable optimism ... while staying realistic.
> 
> Relative to signal levels ... CONUS may be done, back to normal, and stay that way. There's also a possibility that there's a need to orient D10 a special way to do the "exceed" testing on the spots. Not fully clear (yet), but don't expect this to take very long.
> 
> Timing of move from D12 back to D10 ... technically they need to notify the FCC that the testing is done, but they certainly can restart D10 with the previous CONUS channels, while the Drift back is occurring. Wouldn't be surprised to see things back to normal in the next week or two.
> 
> Then the new stuff on D12 after, but "sooner" then previous worst case.


It's all going really quick.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> LINK and LINK
> 
> :raspberry:raspberry:raspberry:raspberry:raspberry​
> ~Alan


Poo poo back at ya. :lol:

We're down to weeks now...not that big a deal at this point - soon is soon is soon....its all good.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We're down to weeks now...not that big a deal at this point - soon is soon is soon....its all good.


Yep, 2-3 weeks and all back to normal, with two fully healthy sats, and plenty of excess bandwidth.

Then we get to see how those other ~50 slots get utilized.


----------



## georule

hilmar2k said:


> He later poster it will be week after next. No reason for panic.


Yes, I see it now. Still good news!

/me wanders off to order the minions to begin filling the fire pit for the Festivus barbecue.


----------



## LameLefty

georule said:


> Yes, I see it now. Still good news!
> 
> /me wanders off to order the minions to begin filling the fire pit for the Festivus barbecue.


Good plan.  Me, I'm getting the aluminum pole out of the attic and training for the Feats of Strength. $DEITY knows we've already had plenty of the Airing of Grievances. :lol:


----------



## ATARI

LameLefty said:


> $DEITY knows we've already had plenty of the Airing of Grievances. :lol:


----------



## SuperZ06

Sixto said:


> Yep, 2-3 weeks and all back to normal, with two fully healthy sats, and plenty of excess bandwidth.
> 
> Then we get to see how those other ~50 slots get utilized.


*So are you saying that the D10 amelioration worked and that D10 is fully functional as designed ? I know there has been speculation, but did I miss where this has been verified ?

By the way, thanks for all the hard work that you do ! 

*


----------



## RAD

SuperZ06, how about losing the bold text?


----------



## harsh

SuperZ06 said:


> So are you saying that the D10 amelioration worked and that D10 is fully functional as designed ?


The "50 slots" would appear to be a reference to CONUS capacity (8n-3n~50). The restorative procedure isn't supposed to impact the CONUS capacity long term.

The spot beams are what the restorative procedure was designed to address and, at least initially, that doesn't mean anything beyond having capacity to provide a full back up to the D12 spot beams. The goal was to insure redundancy (double coverage of every spot beam), not additional capacity.


----------



## Tom Robertson

SuperZ06 said:


> So are you saying that the D10 amelioration worked and that D10 is fully functional as designed ? I know there has been speculation, but did I miss where this has been verified ?
> 
> By the way, thanks for all the hard work that you do !


(de-emphasis is mine) 

Yes, all is happily ameliorated, our fears no longer need boiling over...

The dance for joy is building like a greek wedding--starts early, is incredibly happy, and goes on forever. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## SuperZ06

harsh said:


> The "50 slots" would appear to be a reference to CONUS capacity (8n-3n~50). The restorative procedure isn't supposed to impact the CONUS capacity long term.
> 
> The spot beams are what the restorative procedure was designed to address and, at least initially, that doesn't mean anything beyond having capacity to provide a full back up to the D12 spot beams. The goal was to insure redundancy (double coverage of every spot beam), not additional capacity.


I already understood this.

My question was, did it work ? and has that been verified ? As Sixto said "fully healthy"


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes it worked. No further details at this time.


----------



## SuperZ06

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, all is happily ameliorated





Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes it worked. No further details at this time.


Thank You.

Good job D* for fixing a malfunctioning SAT !


----------



## bobnielsen

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes it worked. No further details at this time.


Nor should we expect much further information (although many of us would really like to know). I'm sure that both Boeing and Directv have some proprietary considerations which override our desires.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> The spot beams are what the restorative procedure was designed to address and, at least initially, that doesn't mean anything beyond having capacity to provide a full back up to the D12 spot beams. *The goal was to insure redundancy (double coverage of every spot beam), not additional capacity.*


You do NOT know this. In fact, Directv's announced plan to add 16 more local markets this year belies your statement. :nono:


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> The "50 slots" would appear to be a reference to CONUS capacity (8n-3n~50).


Assuming 5 per transponder, knowing D12 has 16 CONUS transponders, 16 x 5 = 80, knowing 30 are coming, 80 - 30 = 50, knowing it's not always the full 5 per transponder, knowing that at least 1 on another sat, figured approximately 50 was a good number, and some will be 3D.

To repeat ... then we get to see how those other ~50 slots get utilized.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> The spot beams are what the restorative procedure was designed to address and, at least initially, that doesn't mean anything beyond having capacity to provide a full back up to the D12 spot beams. The goal was to insure redundancy (double coverage of every spot beam), not additional capacity.


Your opinion is the glass half-empty perspective.

You may be correct, but you also may be incorrect.

And it should be clear ... any goal was the *original* goal ... any documentation that we've had access to, and any comments that we've heard during a presentation, were prior to the amelioration announcement and process.

Yes, the D10 and D12 spot beams are similar, with D12 also being able to duplicate D11 (if D12 moved), but it may be possible that DirecTV is now able to better optimize the D10/D12 spot beam coverage, to provide more LiL then they originally expected.

At least it appears to be theoretically possible.

If it appears to at least in theory be possible, then the glass is half-full.


----------



## Alan Gordon

LameLefty said:


> You do NOT know this. In fact, Directv's announced plan to add 16 more local markets this year belies your statement. :nono:


Though other explanations are possible, the recent announcement of 19 HD-LIL markets next year adds even more creedence to your belief...

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes it worked. No further details at this time.


That alone deserves a major

*WOO HOO.*


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes it worked. No further details at this time.


Very Cool! 

Mike


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> Assuming 5 per transponder, knowing D12 has 16 CONUS transponders, 16 x 5 = 80, knowing 30 are coming, 80 - 30 = 50, knowing it's not always the full 5 per transponder, knowing that at least 1 on another sat, figured approximately 50 was a good number, and some will be 3D.
> 
> To repeat ... then we get to see how those other ~50 slots get utilized.


In March, D* told financial analysts "up to 70 HD" channels for 2010, but the same slide showed 3D channels as their own thing, and thus presumably outside the "70". But that gives some indication of the relative split between HD and 3D they are seeing for D12, and sounds very hopeful that they are not intending to parcel that HD capacity out sparingly over a multi-year timeframe.

They still have to make deals, of course, and won't make a bad deal just to fill up capacity, but it does sound like they're feeling relatively aggressive about putting the new toy to something close to full use sooner rather than later.

The suggestions here that they aren't considering load-balancing also suggest they intend to fill up that capacity sooner rather than later.


----------



## slimoli

I don't think Directv will keep empty transponders for a long time, this toy is very expensive. My guess is that we will see bursts of new HD channels almost every month until year end. (OK, sort of wishful thinking too).


----------



## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> I don't think Directv will keep empty transponders for a long time, this toy is very expensive. My guess is that we will see bursts of new HD channels almost every month until year end. (OK, *sort of wishful thinking* too).


Yeah but I like that thinking. 

Mike


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes it worked. No further details at this time.


Nice!

Great job DIRECTV!


----------



## dcowboy7

slimoli said:


> I don't think Directv will keep empty transponders for a long time, this toy is very expensive. My guess is that we will see bursts of new HD channels almost every month until year end. (OK, sort of wishful thinking too).


Why dont they just add 40 HD cinema channels & then remove 1 each time they add 1 "real" HD channel.


----------



## kevinwmsn

dcowboy7 said:


> Why dont they just add 40 HD cinema channels & then remove 1 each time they add 1 "real" HD channel.


I wouldn't be suprised if they did that. They did it with D10/D11.


----------



## georule

slimoli said:


> I don't think Directv will keep empty transponders for a long time, this toy is very expensive. My guess is that we will see bursts of new HD channels almost every month until year end. (OK, sort of wishful thinking too).


They could drop 5 chans/month on us for the rest of the year (July-Dec) and still have 20 left.

Festivus every month thru next April! Oooh. . . .


----------



## JosephB

georule said:


> They could drop 5 chans/month on us for the rest of the year (July-Dec) and still have 20 left.
> 
> Festivus every month thru next April! Oooh. . . .


I'd rather they just put them all up at once, but that's just me


----------



## slimoli

JosephB said:


> I'd rather they just put them all up at once, but that's just me


New channels will be in HD in near future, they need to reserve some space for them. The marketing department would also love to piss off Dish every month instead of one shot deal.


----------



## Lt Disher

slimoli said:


> New channels will be in HD in near future, they need to reserve some space for them. The marketing department would also love to piss off Dish every month instead of one shot deal.


What do they want to do more? Satisfy their customers or piss of Dish?


----------



## hilmar2k

Lt Disher said:


> What do they want to do more? Satisfy their customers or piss of Dish?


Satisying current subs might not be as profitable as pissing off current Dish/cable subs.


----------



## georule

Lt Disher said:


> What do they want to do more? Satisfy their customers or piss of Dish?


The Holy Grail of marketing is doing both simultaneously, while increasing profits at the same time.  Most "either/or" scenarios usually aren't.

I'd prefer them all at once too (preferably yesterday), but that is utterly unlikely for a few reasons (lack of time machine, lack of in-place contracts, continued launching of new HD channels, etc), so since staged deliveries are going to happen anyway, might as well maximize annoying the competition along the way.


----------



## Skyboss

I'd imagine 5 channels a week throughout the summer would be just as effective....


----------



## inourgrave

georule said:


> They could drop 5 chans/month on us for the rest of the year (July-Dec) and still have 20 left.
> 
> Festivus every month thru next April! Oooh. . . .


we are less than 5 days into knowing that D10 SLiL can operate at full capacity and fully reach the fringe areas with it's intended power. Contracts do take some time...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

inourgrave said:


> Contracts do take some time...


They don't get charged until they actually start broadcasting the channel, so they could already have contracts in place and are just waiting for D10/D12 to be operational.


----------



## georule

inourgrave said:


> we are less than 5 days into knowing that D10 SLiL can operate at full capacity and fully reach the fringe areas with it's intended power. Contracts do take some time...


Tell that to the guy that wants 5/week. 

But yes, that's a reasonable point, and making that an official policy (5/month) could have the impact of giving unintended leverage to providers in negotiation, and none of us (D* or its customers) wants that.


----------



## T-Hefner

What kinda signal strengths you guys getting from 103(cb)? ... I know its testing...but I am just curious....


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> You do NOT know this.


This is what the D12 LOA application said, so that was the plan.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> At least it appears to be theoretically possible.


Speaking only of spot beam coverage, what combination of the two might offer better coverage than either one individually?


----------



## harsh

Lt Disher said:


> What do they want to do more? Satisfy their customers or piss of Dish?


Looking at the DIRECTV website, one might well get the impression that DISH Network is very high on their list of hot-button issues.


----------



## bobnielsen

harsh said:


> Speaking only of spot beam coverage, what combination of the two might offer better coverage than either one individually?


They might be able to assign the transponders to spots differently, allowing more transponders assigned to each spotbeam location. I don't know how much latitude they have in doing this (avoiding interference with neighboring spots, etc.) so this is just speculation on my part.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Looking at the DIRECTV website, one might well get the impression that DISH Network is very high on their list of hot-button issues.


Too bad nobody here cares one bit.


T-Hefner said:


> What kinda signal strengths you guys getting from 103(cb)? ... I know its testing...but I am just curious....


Still getting pretty much the same levels for both D12 (left photo) and D10 (right photo).


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Speaking only of spot beam coverage, what combination of the two might offer better coverage than either one individually?


There are a fixed number of physical spot beams, with each represented by a Beam-ID as AxBx in the Schedule-S filing.

For each Beam-ID, there are spot beam transponder frequencies assigned, referenced as TS15 through TS24. There's 1 to 3 per Beam-ID.

The thought is 1) if there are beams that were not fully max'ed out, can the combination of D10 and D12 max the beam or 2) provide LiL to a new DMA within an existing beam footprint by using different transponder frequencies with D10 and D12 sharing a geography.

Both seem possible, but always appreciate any feedback from anyone with more information.


----------



## john18

Is 103 (ca) D12 and 103(cb) D10? My 103(ca) strengths are about six points stronger than 103(cb).


----------



## Sixto

john18 said:


> Is 103 (ca) D12 and 103(cb) D10? My 103(ca) strengths are about six points stronger than 103(cb).


Yes.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> The thought is 1) if there are beams that were not fully max'ed out, can the combination of D10 and D12 max the beam or *2) provide LiL to a new DMA within an existing beam footprint by using different transponder frequencies with D10 and D12 sharing a geography.*
> 
> Both seem possible, but always appreciate any feedback from anyone with more information.


I think #2 is very likely but we'll have to see how the LIL transponder data shakes out after the new LIL markets are added in the coming months.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> This is what the D12 LOA application said, so that was the plan.


Of course the original info for d12 also said it was an on ground spare.. Did anyone really think it was never intended to be anything but a spare? Your statement does not logically reach your conclusion.


----------



## jford951

We got a searching for Sat* only* on my locals here in the detroit,mi area about 8:10am for a few could this have something to do with D10 and testing or moving things back from D12 to D10


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jford951 said:


> We got a searching for Sat* only* on my locals here in the detroit,mi area about 8:10am for a few could this have something to do with D10 and testing or moving things back from D12 to D10


It might be interesting to try the online request for a receiver reset...to see if they return...but yes....could be related.


----------



## georule

Alan Gordon said:


> Though other explanations are possible, the recent announcement of 19 HD-LIL markets next year adds even more creedence to your belief...
> 
> ~Alan


Is there a thread with a history of which LiL were added when? Preferably with milestone markers embedded showing when new satellite capacity was added.

I'm just curious how the recent announcements of new LiL compare on a historical basis. If you can't show in the past this level of new additions without new capacity, that likely has to mean something. . .


----------



## jford951

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It might be interesting to try the online request for a receiver reset...to see if they return...but yes....could be related.


My locals came back a few minutes later on their own but I could change channel to TNT and TBS with no problem


----------



## harsh

inkahauts said:


> Of course the original info for d12 also said it was an on ground spare.. Did anyone really think it was never intended to be anything but a spare? Your statement does not logically reach your conclusion.


The LOA is a decidedly more up-to-date and definitive document than the grand plan hatched six years ago when DIRECTV was tight with News Corp. At the point of the LOA, DIRECTV 12 had "declared a major" including the spot beam configuration.

As for those who rationalize that DIRECTV isn't about to let established resources go underutilized, I invite you to consider the current Spaceway 1 loading. The most recent mapping spreadsheet shows just one TV station (WUNU -- UNCTV Lumberton, NC) and a test channel are being delivered via that bird out of a stated capacity of 250.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jford951 said:


> My locals came back a few minutes later on their own but I could change channel to TNT and TBS with no problem


Good to hear!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> As for those who rationalize that DIRECTV isn't about to let established resources go underutilized, I invite you to consider the current Spaceway 1 loading. The most recent mapping spreadsheet shows just one TV station (WUNU -- UNCTV Lumberton, NC) and a test channel are being delivered via that bird out of a stated capacity of 250.


Then again...as many DirecTV folks know...that Sat was never intended for that purpose, rather, temporarily was adapted for that purpose. Its current use is not now, nor was it ever, part of any long-term plan.

Therefore, the comparison is pretty much off base to any current planned Sat resources.


----------



## afulkerson

jford951 said:


> My locals came back a few minutes later on their own but I could change channel to TNT and TBS with no problem


I looked at sat strength while the locals were out and the spot beams were all 0's. All conus sats were just fine. When the locals came back the spot beams were back to normal also.


----------



## say-what

jford951 said:


> We got a searching for Sat* only* on my locals here in the detroit,mi area about 8:10am for a few could this have something to do with D10 and testing or moving things back from D12 to D10


Had the same thing happen in New Orleans just after 7am, locals only for a few minutes - our locals are/were D10.


----------



## Skyboss

harsh said:


> The LOA is a decidedly more up-to-date and definitive document than the grand plan hatched six years ago when DIRECTV was tight with News Corp. At the point of the LOA, DIRECTV 12 had "declared a major" including the spot beam configuration.
> 
> As for those who rationalize that DIRECTV isn't about to let established resources go underutilized, I invite you to consider the current Spaceway 1 loading. The most recent mapping spreadsheet shows just one TV station (WUNU -- UNCTV Lumberton, NC) and a test channel are being delivered via that bird out of a stated capacity of 250.


Man have I been under a rock. What is Spaceway 1 now? An in orbit backup?


----------



## curt8403

Skyboss said:


> Man have I been under a rock. What is Spaceway 1 now? An in orbit backup?


basically yes, just remember, it does not really have any Conus, just spotbeams


----------



## hdtvfan0001

curt8403 said:


> basically yes, just remember, it does not really have any Conus, just spotbeams


Indeed....which is why the comparison made by another poster (a Dish subscriber) previously to D10, D11, D12 and their use was a gross mismatch/misrepresentation.


----------



## Skyboss

curt8403 said:


> basically yes, just remember, it does not really have any Conus, just spotbeams


Yeah, I knew that about the spots. Was just shocked to see nothing was on it. That's what I get for not paying attention for a while. :grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Skyboss said:


> Yeah, I knew that about the spots. Was just shocked to see nothing was on it. That's what I get for not paying attention for a while. :grin:


It would not exactly come as a shock if in the future, they actually migrated the leftovers and sold the unit to someone else for another purpose.

Or....used it for another purpose in the future themselves...


----------



## curt8403

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It would not exactly come as a shock if in the future, they actually migrated the leftovers and sold the unit to someone else for another purpose.
> 
> Or....used it for another purpose in the future themselves...


like firing all the thrusters, getting the Spaceways to spin fast enough to create a wormhole? :sure:


----------



## Alan Gordon

georule said:


> Is there a thread with a history of which LiL were added when? Preferably with milestone markers embedded showing when new satellite capacity was added.
> 
> I'm just curious how the recent announcements of new LiL compare on a historical basis. If you can't show in the past this level of new additions without new capacity, that likely has to mean something. . .


Here's a history of when LiL was added. No milestone markers...

However, my point was that they waited until *AFTER* the "Corrective Action" before announcing these additional locals for next year.... which I find VERY interesting.

~Alan


----------



## Ernie

Skyboss said:


> Man have I been under a rock. What is Spaceway 1 now? An in orbit backup?


This could be preparation for moving it to 99 to operate in tandem with Spaceway-2.

Ernie


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon;2495064However said:


> _AFTER_[/B] the "Corrective Action" before announcing these additional locals for next year.... which I find VERY interesting.
> 
> ~Alan


Perhaps not just a coincidence after all...hmmm....


----------



## inkahauts

I still think that they are waiting to use spaceway one till they get d12 & d10 up and running because they need to configure it and d10 and d12 all at once for different local markets... Remember, SW can be rearranged anyway they need, so waiting till they find out if d10 could be fixed, and leaving it using a little power makes sense.. extend its life a little, and prepare to rearrange its frequency patterns (some of its space is now used by d12, but that does NOT keep it from using all its spots)


----------



## beespark

ATARI said:


> OK, you asked for it:
> 
> There are 010 kinds of people in the world, those who know gray code, those who don't know gray code, and those who think gray code is binary.


Man, what a treasure trove of information this board can be! Noisy sometimes, sure, but where else does one find out about these sorts of things 

My hat's off to you, ATARI; myself, I hadn't heard of Gray code previously, and am happy to have gained knowledge! (Altho I suppose I might say "11 kinds of people", but...)

Oh. Hehe, sorry, nevermind - I get it now! Very clever.

And to all, sorry for rambling, but hope you're all having as good of a time waiting for D* to unleash the D10/D12 combo punch  What else to do, what to do...

bees

ps. mmf, first post, can't link just yet, oh well


----------



## The Scotsman

beespark said:


> Man, what a treasure trove of information this board can be! Noisy sometimes, sure, but where else does one find out about these sorts of things
> 
> My hat's off to you, ATARI; myself, I hadn't heard of Gray code previously, and am happy to have gained knowledge! (Altho I suppose I might say "11 kinds of people", but...)
> 
> Oh. Hehe, sorry, nevermind - I get it now! Very clever.
> 
> And to all, sorry for rambling, but hope you're all having as good of a time waiting for D* to unleash the D10/D12 combo punch  What else to do, what to do...
> 
> bees
> 
> ps. mmf, first post, can't link just yet, oh well


:welcome_s


----------



## harsh

Ernie said:


> This could be preparation for moving it to 99 to operate in tandem with Spaceway-2.


One theory holds that they plan on using Spaceway 1 for demand downloads in recognition of the fact that it was originally designed for data transmission.


----------



## James Long

harsh said:


> One theory holds that they plan on using Spaceway 1 for demand downloads in recognition of the fact that it was originally designed for data transmission.


It is all data. Every channel, every transponder of all DirecTV (and DISH) service. It's all data.


----------



## HoTat2

James Long said:


> It is all data. Every channel, every transponder of all DirecTV (and DISH) service. It's all data.


I think harsh was referring to IP type switched or routed bursty data transmissions which the Spaceways were originally designed for to provide high speed satellite internet access to computers.

And this form of satellite technology would be more favorable to a VOD download service.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> One theory holds that they plan on using Spaceway 1 for demand downloads in recognition of the fact that it was originally designed for data transmission.





James Long said:


> It is all data. Every channel, every transponder of all DirecTV (and DISH) service. It's all data.





HoTat2 said:


> I think harsh was referring to IP type switched or routed bursty data transmissions which the Spaceways were originally designed for to provide high speed satellite internet access to computers.
> 
> And this form of satellite technology would be more favorable to a VOD download service.




Everyone is right, of course. 

I think the real flexibility of the Spaceways is their phased arrays and what can be done with them on the fly...

The rest is left for others to speculate. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> Everyone is right, of course.
> 
> I think the real flexibility of the Spaceways is their phased arrays and what can be done with them on the fly...
> 
> The rest is left for others to speculate.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yeah ...

My intent was to include the flexibility of the SWs phased array antennas under the data "routing" function. By utilizing an undoubtedly sophisticated switching or routing matrix onboard the satellite connected with the ability to route them to any one or more of possibly hundreds of small spotbeams 
blanketing the continent with a cellular-like topography generated by the PAAs.

Not to mention any "hopping spotbeam" capabilities which may be used to increase the effective geographical coverage of any of the spots by time sharing.


----------



## JosephB

I don't think the Spaceway satellites provide any significant advantage to VOD downloads over the other satellites, other than the ability for relatively small spotbeams and reuse of frequencies in that manner. The satellite-to-satellite IP routing really wouldn't come into play, because you don't have two way traffic between the receivers and other receivers or the ground. You *might* get a slight advantage from IP multicasting, but I highly doubt the receivers have the ability to handle that kind of thing from the satellites.


----------



## georule

I think I don't understand why having their own satellites would really help with their mode of VOD-over-the-internet. Other than to the degree that using a satellite otherwise not in use, and otherwise not useable for some other necessary D* function, might be a marginal cost savings somewhere in the internet chain over purchasing that service. This certainly may be my ignorance --feel free to point me at a educational resource if one is handy.

Edit: Maybe that was too indirect, and the direct question would suffice --are some VOD delivered direct to my STB from a D* satellite, rather than travelling over the public internet?


----------



## RAD

A 'guess' is that maybe they've found a way to do a 'high speed' push to a receiver of a DoD movie via SW1 (or SW2) so a 2 hour movie could be download in a matter of minutes. And with the capability of reconfiguring the spotbeams on the fly they could move them around to where the demand is greatest.


----------



## inkahauts

I believe that one of the keys would be that they could use its spotbeams to send certain movies to certain markets faster when it knew that someone in that area wanted a particular movie....


----------



## texasbrit

inkahauts said:


> I believe that one of the keys would be that they could use its spotbeams to send certain movies to certain markets faster when it knew that someone in that area wanted a particular movie....


I want my own spotbeam...!


----------



## James Long

inkahauts said:


> I believe that one of the keys would be that they could use its spotbeams to send certain movies to certain markets faster when it knew that someone in that area wanted a particular movie....


It sounds interesting. My questions on such a plan would be keeping track of where customers are to dynamically allocate a spot to their area and uplink bandwidth. Frequency reuse for transmitting on spotbeam satellites requires frequency reuse for receiving ... and all frequencies must be within the capabilities and license of the satellite.


----------



## seern

No one seems to have noticed Sixto has changed the thread title and posted a new status on page 1. Seems we are almost back in business with D10.


----------



## Sixto

seern said:


> No one seems to have noticed Sixto has changed the thread title and posted a new status on page 1. Seems we are almost back in business with D10.


Yep, D12 within 10 days, D10 possibly much sooner.


----------



## Dolly

Sixto said:


> Yep, D12 within 10 days, D10 possibly much sooner.


You know me this thread is way too high Tech for me :blush: But I think this means that D* will hit its' target of more HD in June?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Yep, D12 within 10 days, D10 possibly much sooner.


D10 and D12 will be on service as scheduled. 

Good news Sixto.


----------



## HerntDawg

Happy to see D10 is good. 

Let my/the festivus continue 

Hernt


----------



## jerrylove56

Did the glitch from last week have anything to do with D10 - D12 updates/change overs?


----------



## Sixto

jerrylove56 said:


> Did the glitch from last week have anything to do with D10 - D12 updates/change overs?


No.


----------



## Jaspear

georule said:


> Edit: Maybe that was too indirect, and the direct question would suffice --are some VOD delivered direct to my STB from a D* satellite, rather than travelling over the public internet?


The answer is yes. I found a VOD HD episode of "The Tudors" on my receiver a few weeks ago, during the one week that I forgot to record it on Sunday night. Given the speed of my internet service (512 kpbs after the initial burst), it would have taken 12 hours or more to download that. I would have noticed my internet being essentially unusable for that length of time.


----------



## adkinsjm

Jaspear said:


> The answer is yes. I found a VOD HD episode of "The Tudors" on my receiver a few weeks ago, during the one week that I forgot to record it on Sunday night. Given the speed of my internet service (512 kpbs after the initial burst), it would have taken 12 hours or more to download that. I would have noticed my internet being essentially unusable for that length of time.


There has been some VOD delivered via satellite for a while. Mainly movies, but also content from The 101.


----------



## Sixto

Was thinking that the D10 move may have started, but not yet.

D10 is still sitting at 102.6°, as of a few hours ago.

Thinking nationals may move back by Wednesday.

Seems that old-D10 LiL is staying on D12.

Wondering if we'll have access to the notice to the FCC that testing is complete, and any hint of success publicly documented.


----------



## georule

Jaspear said:


> The answer is yes. I found a VOD HD episode of "The Tudors" on my receiver a few weeks ago, during the one week that I forgot to record it on Sunday night. Given the speed of my internet service (512 kpbs after the initial burst), it would have taken 12 hours or more to download that. I would have noticed my internet being essentially unusable for that length of time.


D* is known to pre-load certain high-demand VOD on DVRs. For that kind of thing, I could see the utility of using the satellites, limited by the amount of space on customer DVRs they have dedicated to pre-loads.

But the model of "a customer in Kansas decides he wants to watch low-demand movie X, selects it, and satellite transponder wakes up and 'gets busy'?". I could be totally off base here, but the shear math of that comparing customers to transponders strikes me as unlikely.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Was thinking that the D10 move may have started, but not yet.
> 
> D10 is still sitting at 102.6°, as of a few hours ago.
> 
> Thinking nationals may move back by Wednesday.
> 
> *Seems that old-D10 LiL is staying on D12.*
> 
> Wondering if we'll have access to the notice to the FCC that testing is complete, and any hint of success publicly documented.


Sixto, is that conclusion came from FCC filing ? Or there is something in APG what I'm missing ?


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> Was thinking that the D10 move may have started, but not yet.
> 
> D10 is still sitting at 102.6°, as of a few hours ago.
> 
> Thinking nationals may move back by Wednesday.
> 
> Seems that old-D10 LiL is staying on D12.
> 
> Wondering if we'll have access to the notice to the FCC that testing is complete, and any hint of success publicly documented.


Yeah, FCC asked for a report on the results --I hope we see it.

But. . . if D12 is taking the LiL, and D10 is going to backup (or even "new lower DMA markets"), that does suggest that even if "amelioration" was successful to some degree, it didn't bring D10 BSS up to D12 standards.

"Success" can be a relative term.

Or maybe there is some reason why there is no particular advantage to moving D12 back to D10 for LiL, so they decided not to make the effort.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Sixto, is that conclusion came from FCC filing ? Or there is something in APG what I'm missing ?





georule said:


> But. . . if D12 is taking the LiL, and D10 is going to backup (or even "new lower DMA markets"), that does suggest that even if "amelioration" was successful to some degree, it didn't bring D10 BSS up to D12 standards.
> 
> "Success" can be a relative term.
> 
> Or maybe there is some reason why there is no particular advantage to moving D12 back to D10 for LiL, so they decided not to make the effort.


Seems totally unrelated to the successful amelioration, just possibly there's no need to move the LiL back, and they'd rather follow the original plan, then tweak the plan with D10 now having additional capabilities.

Again, just basing this on reading some public and non-public tea leaves.


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> Seems totally unrelated to the successful amelioration, just possibly there's no need to move the LiL back, and they'd rather follow the original plan, then tweak the plan with D10 now having additional capabilities.
> 
> Again, just basing this on reading some public and non-public tea leaves.


Entirely possible, Sixto, and I've learned to respect your sources and experience at stirring D* technical tea leaves.

The question that occurs to me in this regard (because I'm a curious guy, and can't help but tease at logical issues) is why it would be worthwhile to move D12 CONUS back to D10, but not D12 LiL?


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> The question that occurs to me in this regard (because I'm a curious guy, and can't help but tease at logical issues) is why it would be worthwhile to move D12 CONUS back to D10, but not D12 LiL?


Would expect that there's a high priority to get the main D10 National HD from D12 back to D10, at least due to the some MDU inability to get Ka-Hi. Posted earlier in this thread (btw, never confirmed with a link).


> DIRECTV has temporarily relocated some of the national HD channels to the new 103 A-band satellite. This temporary move is part of the overall plan to increase HD service capacity in the coming months. As a result, the HD national channels previously located on the 103 B-band frequency slot will temporarily not be accessible to IPAdvantage customers. IPAdvantage customers with models HR20i-100 will see a black or gray screen when tuning to these HD channels. A list of affected HD channels is attached.


Also, some others with issues as well, but those should be fixable within the home.


----------



## georule

Ahhh, the MDU. I forgot. There is another thread around here where some poor bastich had just bought hundreds of units that could not "see" D12 CONUS and was feeling very ill-used over the whole thing.

Yes, you're right --that's sufficient incentive to move the CONUS back and unrelated to the LiL.


----------



## Brent04

I would imagine that since there would be far more LiL channels then national then it wouldn't be the best use of time moving the LiL back to D10 when they could just add new ones to D10 and keep the current ones on D12.


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Ahhh, the MDU. I forgot. There is another thread around here where some poor bastich had just bought hundreds of units that could not "see" D12 CONUS and was feeling very ill-used over the whole thing.
> 
> Yes, you're right --that's sufficient incentive to move the CONUS back and unrelated to the LiL.


Yep, would expect the MFH3 folks to be happy again in 3-10 days.


----------



## RAD

So Sixto, did I miss what will be done to take care of those MFH3 folks so they'll be able to receive the new HD programming that will be added on D12?


----------



## James Long

Brent04 said:


> I would imagine that since there would be far more LiL channels then national then it wouldn't be the best use of time moving the LiL back to D10 when they could just add new ones to D10 and keep the current ones on D12.


It didn't take long to move them over ... it shouldn't take long to move them back ... but there doesn't seem to be a difference between D10 and D12 for the locals. Perhaps some load balancing will be done but there isn't a compelling reason to put the locals on either satellite specifically.


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> So Sixto, did I miss what will be done to take care of those MFH3 folks so they'll be able to receive the new HD programming that will be added on D12?


Happy is relative. 

Would expect that there's some mighty unhappy MFH3 customers out there after losing the original "core" HD channels from D10.

They'll be back to "normal", as in pre-amelioration.

Would expect that there's a future MFH3 upgrade plan, but unclear of the details.


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> Would expect that there's a future MFH3 upgrade plan, but unclear of the details.


After a month of missing channels to not get the next 14 channels and not get any new HD? I sure hope there is an upgrade plan.

When DISH started putting national channels on 72.7 it ticked off viewers who were getting all of their HD off of 61.5 (and had an older dish for SD channels on 119-110). It isn't a pretty sight when customers can't get their full package.


----------



## TheDurk

Could one of you rocket techs please help me with a down-to-Earth question? My SL5 is a little down on signal strength only for 99°/103° and I am getting some HD rain fade. I'm ready to do an alignment tweak but I'll wait if things are changing such that it is better to do so. Should I wait? It's something of a production to set up to do it.

Second, is YESHD on D12/TPN18 or somewhere else? This is my 'must have highest strength possible' channel (and the reason I moved to DirecTV from Dish when Ergen wouldn't carry it.)


----------



## Tom Robertson

TheDurk said:


> Could one of you rocket techs please help me with a down-to-Earth question? My SL5 is a little down on signal strength only for 99°/103° and I am getting some HD rain fade. I'm ready to do an alignment tweak but I'll wait if things are changing such that it is better to do so. Should I wait? It's something of a production to set up to do it.
> 
> Second, is YESHD on D12/TPN18 or somewhere else? This is my 'must have highest strength possible' channel (and the reason I moved to DirecTV from Dish when Ergen wouldn't carry it.)


I suggest open a new thread on your alignment issue. And post representative numbers for your signal strengths along with your basic setup info.

I'll let someone else answer the YESHD question. It likely will move soon back to D10 if it is on D12.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

TheDurk said:


> Second, is YESHD on D12/TPN18 or somewhere else? This is my 'must have highest strength possible' channel (and the reason I moved to DirecTV from Dish when Ergen wouldn't carry it.)


YESHD is on D12/TP18 now, should be back to D10/TP8 soon.


----------



## TheDurk

Tom Robertson said:


> I suggest open a new thread on your alignment issue. And post representative numbers for your signal strengths along with your basic setup info.
> 
> I'll let someone else answer the YESHD question. It likely will move soon back to D10 if it is on D12.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


As you instruct, sorry for the hijack. I thought it was a quickie that the folks in here could answer fast. In any case, based on Sixto's answer I'll wait. (Thanks, Sixto.) The tweak I can handle, I just want my favorite summer channel in one place before I do it.


----------



## loudo

A little off topic for D10, but I see this morning Sky Report says that Space Systems/Loral will build the next satellite, for DirecTV. DIRECTV 14 will use KA-Band and reverse DBS. Launch of DirecTV 14 is scheduled for 2013.


----------



## cforrest

loudo said:


> A little off topic for D10, but I see this morning Sky Report says that Space Systems/Loral will build the next satellite, for DirecTV. DIRECTV 14 will use KA-Band and reverse DBS. Launch of DirecTV 14 is scheduled for 2013.


Yep, we know 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=179143


----------



## georule

James Long said:


> After a month of missing channels to not get the next 14 channels and not get any new HD? I sure hope there is an upgrade plan.
> 
> When DISH started putting national channels on 72.7 it ticked off viewers who were getting all of their HD off of 61.5 (and had an older dish for SD channels on 119-110). It isn't a pretty sight when customers can't get their full package.


Here's what the guy I was chatting with (about 3D capability, actually, which they also don't support on the units he bought) said he was told:



GTS said:


> I just ordered 735 of these units, HR20i, last week for a MFH3 deployment. Not only am I greeted with this great news, but on the very same day I get a notice that the head end has shipped, today, I get an email stating it already needs a hardware and firmware update to accommodate the newly, and soon to be, deployed HD channels. Not only this, but the new channels will all be displaying the "searching for sat signal" message until the upgrades are performed. When will the equipment and firmware be ready to roll you ask? Not til the middle of July or August. Go figure!


----------



## jford951

So with the fix to D10 will this bring more Locals to existing markets? Here in the detroit area we have a few stations that only are in SD but are broadcast localy in HD might we get the HD versions now


----------



## P Smith

TheDurk said:


> As you instruct, sorry for the hijack. I thought it was a quickie that the folks in here could answer fast. In any case, based on Sixto's answer I'll wait. (Thanks, Sixto.) The tweak I can handle, I just want my favorite summer channel in one place before I do it.


Just for your and others future requests what sat/tp carry my channel ? -> see gct's thread with full sat/tp/ch map.
And Sixo's national ch map/log.


----------



## harsh

jford951 said:


> So with the fix to D10 will this bring more Locals to existing markets?


Detroit was not one of the problemed spot beams (as evidenced by the fact that Detroit was coming from D10 all along). I'd be asking your missing local stations about carriage agreements.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

All quiet on the D10 front....more news imminent soon... 

The next 7 days should be "fun".

*Translation = Sixto will be posting the D10 amelioration final results and new status soon. *


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> All quiet on the D10 front....more news imminent soon...
> 
> The next 7 days should be "fun".
> 
> *Translation = Sixto will be posting the D10 amelioration final results and new status soon. *


We are due a TLE, nothing since yesterday just shy of 8am GMT.


----------



## GregLee

jford951 said:


> So with the fix to D10 will this bring more Locals to existing markets? Here in the detroit area we have a few stations that only are in SD but are broadcast localy in HD might we get the HD versions now


I am in that situation also, here in Honolulu, and have been for over 2 years. Lots of luck finding anything out, because I haven't been able to. Locals here are from D11; local NBC station says DirecTV is free to carry their HD signal whenever they choose; DirecTV says they don't have the satellite capacity. Ha. HD locals announced for 35 additional markets, and DirecTV doesn't have the capacity.


----------



## lwilli201

Not sure how Directv gets the local signals back to the uplink location from Hawaii. Getting the HD locals to the uplinks sounds like a very expensive process.


----------



## evan_s

GregLee said:


> I am in that situation also, here in Honolulu, and have been for over 2 years. Lots of luck finding anything out, because I haven't been able to. Locals here are from D11; local NBC station says DirecTV is free to carry their HD signal whenever they choose; DirecTV says they don't have the satellite capacity. Ha. HD locals announced for 35 additional markets, and DirecTV doesn't have the capacity.


Capacity for locals in other markets or national channels is different capacity than is needed to add an additional channel to your market. This especially true of Hawaii as there aren't going to be any extra spots covering that area.

DirecTV doesn't put any locals on Conus Tps (other than the distant networks). It's a waste of conus bandwidth that could be used to provide all their customer additional national channels.

Bandwidth on spots for local channels are only useful if the spot is aimed at you. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that none of the other 35 markets that are being added are covered by the same spot beam(s) that handle the Hawaii locals.

I can understand the frustration of not having one of your local channels available in HD and had to put up with that for 6 months or so when I first signed up.


----------



## Sixto

Not sure if this very slight movement means anything yet.

It hasn't been at .6 in a while, since 5/18.

Nothing new with the FCC.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-10
NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		06-15-2010 09:09:17
Orbit # at Epoch	1078
Inclination		0.052
RA of A. Node		153.442
Eccentricity		0.0000225
Argument of Perigee	82.899
Revs per day		1.00268173
Period			23h 56m 08s (1436.13 min)
Semi-major axis		42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 787 x 35 789 km
Element number / age	506 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.6071° W
Lat			0.0097° N
Alt (km)		35 786.650

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
506 06-15 09:09 35,787 x 35,789      2 102.6071°W  0.0097°N  0.052°
505 06-14 07:50 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5920°W  0.0121°N  0.053°
504 06-13 16:43 35,784 x 35,789      5 102.5954°W  0.0266°S  0.052°
503 06-10 08:50 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.5921°W  0.0138°N  0.040°
502 06-07 07:57 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5845°W  0.0205°N  0.040°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Not sure if this very slight movement means anything yet.
> 
> It hasn't been at .6 in a while, since 5/18.
> 
> Nothing new with the FCC.


Thanks for the update.

Should be soon now before the numbers change more.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> Should be soon now before the numbers change more.


I very much expected D10 to get back the nationals tomorrow (6/16), but now just not sure.

Per the filings, they can't provide commercial service from D10 until the STA is complete, and we've seen no filing that it's complete, but then again that might be confidential.

The start of movement back to 102.815 would indicate the STA being complete, but can't yet verify that until it's above 102.65.


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> I very much expected D10 to get back the nationals tomorrow (6/16), but now just not sure.
> 
> Per the filings, they can't provide commercial service from D10 until the STA is complete, and we've seen no filing that it's complete, but then again that might be confidential.
> 
> The start of movement back to 102.815 would indicate the STA being complete, but can't yet verify that until it's above 102.65.


There are required communications to FCC described in Para 4 and Para 5 of the Grant that we haven't seen publicly, but must have taken place re the start of D10 testing at 102.6. So, we know at least *some* D*/FCC coms are going on out of sight re fulfillment of the Grant terms.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> I very much expected D10 to get back the nationals tomorrow (6/16), but now just not sure.
> 
> Per the filings, they can't provide commercial service from D10 until the STA is complete, and we've seen no filing that it's complete, but then again that might be confidential.
> 
> The start of movement back to 102.815 would indicate the STA being complete, but can't yet verify that until it's above 102.65.


I was estimating the move might start Thursday or early Friday...with it being firmly in place by Monday - ready for a 6/23 activation in its permanent home. That would allow for D12 to light up its planned content on that same date.

But that's speculation based on multiple reports and limited data.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I was estimating the move might start Thursday or early Friday...with it being firmly in place by Monday - ready for a 6/23 activation in its permanent home. That would allow for D12 to light up its planned content on that same date.
> 
> But that's speculation based on multiple reports and limited data.


It just doesn't seem like a best practice to move from D12 to D10, and light up D12 on the same day, but anything is possible I guess.

Still thinking we may see D10 tomorrow.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> It just doesn't seem like a best practice to move from D12 to D10, and light up D12 on the same day, but anything is possible I guess.
> 
> Still thinking we may see D10 tomorrow.


Good point - at least one day apart for sure....


----------



## GP245

Just noticed that Channel 312, Hallmark Channel - SD somehow is now showing the network's HD feed.

Unfortunately, the movie is in 4.3, but the HD symbol is there - beyond the right hand edge of the picture.

No announcement has been made that the channel has been added. Is this an error?
Testing? What's going on?


----------



## jefbal99

GP245 said:


> Just noticed that Channel 312, Hallmark Channel - SD somehow is now showing the network's HD feed.
> 
> Unfortunately, the movie is in 4.3, but the HD symbol is there - beyond the right hand edge of the picture.
> 
> No announcement has been made that the channel has been added. Is this an error?
> Testing? What's going on?


Prolly just the source changed. Their SD is now a center cut of the Widescreen HD feed. Same as Fox Soccer having their HD bug in the 4x3 SD window.


----------



## GP245

Hallmark's SD feed uses letterboxing of Widescreen elements, not center cuts!


----------



## slimoli

GP245 said:


> Hallmark's SD feed uses letterboxing of Widescreen elements, not center cuts!


Channel 312 is still in SD, 480i. When and if it becomes HD it will show up as 720P or 1080i. That's what really matter, not the HD bug or aspect ratio you see.


----------



## Dolly

There are two Hallmark channels. One is the Hallmark Movie Channel--sorry I forgot its' channel number--and it was part of the last group to go true HD. But the regular Hallmark channel is still in SD, but it is supposed to be going HD soon according to the Flyer that was in with my bill this month. But gee I hate that word "Soon" it can mean so many different amounts of time


----------



## James Long

slimoli said:


> Channel 312 is still in SD, 480i. When and if it becomes HD it will show up as 720P or 1080i. That's what really matter, not the HD bug or aspect ratio you see.


The issue would be for the SD viewers ... if DirecTV is taking the HD feed and center cutting it instead of continuing to air the SD feed those customers will lose out.

At the moment "Cheers" is airing and it is an SD show - with black pillarboxes on the HD feed. The Hallmark logo (and "Dad's Home" advert) is well inside the 4x3 portion of the picture. The "HD" logo is completely on the black bar. At the moment "center cut" is the same as the 4x3 feed. One would have to check during some letterbox/HD programming.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> It just doesn't seem like a best practice to move from D12 to D10, and light up D12 on the same day, but anything is possible I guess.
> 
> Still thinking we may see D10 tomorrow.


Sometimes you just have that feeling ... 

All back on D10! (previous D10 national HD that was temporarily on D12)

Still sifting through the details: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2501307


----------



## FHSPSU67

Nice work Sixto, as always -right on time for Festivus next week!


----------



## Sixto

FHSPSU67 said:


> Nice work Sixto, as always -right on time for Festivus next week!


Yes, this is a very important day.

We now have 15 transponders of open and available national HD bandwidth on D12.

D12 is "live" (and has been for the D10 amelioration).

D10 is back "live" (and has all of the national HD that it had previously).

All is back to normal ... a wonderful day in the neighborhood. 

This thread will remain open for the remainder of today (6/16), but will close at 11:59pm ET tonight.

D10 still needs to drift back to 102.815°, but for all intents and purposes, the D10 amelioration process is complete.

The future is bright, there's now plenty of national HD bandwidth!


----------



## jefbal99

Have we gotten a TLE that it is drifting back?

Edit in: nevermind, we were posting at the same time


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Have we gotten a TLE that it is drifting back?
> 
> Edit in: nevermind, we were posting at the same time


Yes, it certainly looks like the drift has begun, as it appeared slightly yesterday.


Code:


DirecTV-10 507
1 31862U 07032A   10167.23687390 -.00000106  00000-0  10000-3 0  5072
2 31862 000.0331 155.3233 0000537 123.3166 328.4035 01.00268655 10793

Name			DirecTV-10
NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		06-16-2010 05:41:05
Orbit # at Epoch	1079
Inclination		0.033
RA of A. Node		155.323
Eccentricity		0.0000537
Argument of Perigee	123.317
Revs per day		1.00268655
Period			23h 56m 08s (1436.13 min)
Semi-major axis		42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 790 km
Element number / age	507 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.6214° W
Lat			0.0103° N
Alt (km)		35 785.020

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
506 06-16 05:41 35,785 x 35,790      4 102.6214°W  0.0103°N  0.033°
506 06-15 09:09 35,787 x 35,789      2 102.6071°W  0.0097°N  0.052°
505 06-14 07:50 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5920°W  0.0121°N  0.053°
504 06-13 16:43 35,784 x 35,789      5 102.5954°W  0.0266°S  0.052°
503 06-10 08:50 35,786 x 35,787      1 102.5921°W  0.0138°N  0.040°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Yes, this is a very important day.
> 
> We now have 15 transponders of open and available national HD bandwidth on D12.
> 
> D12 is "live" (and has been for the D10 amelioration).
> 
> D10 is back "live" (and has all of the national HD that it had previously).
> 
> All is back to normal ... a wonderful day in the neighborhood.
> 
> This thread will remain open for the remainder of today (6/16), but will close at midnight tonight.
> 
> *D10 still needs to drift back to 102.815°*, but for all intents and purposes, the D10 amelioration process is complete.
> 
> The future is bright, there's now plenty of national HD bandwidth!


How long is the drift supposed to take, just wondering?


----------



## VARTV

Wonder if the amelioration was successful???


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> How long is the drift supposed to take, just wondering?


Last time it took several days, but will have zero affect on commercial national HD service.

As of right now, all is back to "normal".


----------



## Sixto

VARTV said:


> Wonder if the amelioration was successful???


All indications have been that the corrective action on D10 was successful.

It's not clear whether we'll see any public statements (or any details).

We may, but unclear at this time.


----------



## LameLefty

Good news. Thanks for staying on top of it, Sixto.


----------



## Motley

So how successful were they? Did the get D10 back to 100% or are they still down a couple transponders? Does anyone know how many were broken before they started the process?


----------



## Sixto

Motley said:


> So how successful were they? Did the get D10 back to 100% or are they still down a couple transponders? Does anyone know how many were broken before they started the process?


The procedure was for the spot beams only (as you probably know).

Relative to details:


Sixto said:


> All indications have been that the corrective action on D10 was successful.
> 
> It's not clear whether we'll see any public statements (or any details).
> 
> We may, but unclear at this time.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> All indications have been that the corrective action on D10 was successful.
> 
> It's not clear whether we'll see any public statements.
> 
> We may, but unclear at this time.


Aren't they supposed to tell the FCC its status?


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Aren't they supposed to tell the FCC its status?


Yes, they need to tell the FCC, and I'm sure that they have.

They have no obligation to tell us.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Yes, they need to tell the FCC, and I'm sure that they have.
> 
> They have no obligation to tell us.


Well FCC documents are public record...


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Well FCC documents are public record...


The STA's are public record.

Every communication with the FCC may not be. Can't say I'm an expert on this topic.

We just feel fortunate to get access to the public details that we do.


----------



## BudShark

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Aren't they supposed to tell the FCC its status?


Yes, but that can be simply, we're done, thanks. What we may never know is if they went from 50% to 80% or 100% or 50% to a "better" long term 50% or any of that.


----------



## betterdan

Weird that this thread is still open since it is past 12 am midnight on 6/16/10.


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> The STA's are public record.
> 
> Every communication with the FCC may not be. Can't say I'm an expert on this topic.
> 
> We just feel fortunate to get access to the public details that we do.


As I noted above, Para 4 and 5 of the Grant required them to inform FCC when they started testing on D10, which would have been 6/9 or 6/10. We did not see those communications, but can reliably assume they took place.

We may still see something in public on the results --sometimes these things seem to show up a couple days late.

Anyway, today is a good day for D*, no question.

You could always FOIA the FCC re D* communications regarding D10 --dunno if it would be worth the trouble.


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> Yes, this is a very important day.
> 
> We now have 15 transponders of open and available national HD bandwidth on D12.
> 
> D12 is "live" (and has been for the D10 amelioration).
> 
> D10 is back "live" (and has all of the national HD that it had previously).
> 
> All is back to normal ... a wonderful day in the neighborhood.
> 
> This thread will remain open for the remainder of today (6/16), but will close at 11:59pm ET tonight.
> 
> D10 still needs to drift back to 102.815°, but for all intents and purposes, the D10 amelioration process is complete.
> 
> The future is bright, there's now plenty of national HD bandwidth!


A Quick check of data stream has Biloxi, MS, Joplin, MO, and Idaho Falls, ID LIL's in their appropriate space and some look active. Await confirmation!??

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> A Quick check of data stream has Biloxi, MS, Joplin, MO, and Idaho Falls, ID LIL's in their appropriate space and some look active. Await confirmation!??
> 
> Doctor j


Yep, their "test" state went away in the national HD guide data.


----------



## Sixto

To recap ...

D10 national HD went to D12 on 5/26/2010.

Returned to D10 on 6/16/2010.

3 weeks, start to finish.


----------



## gpg

Any idea of how long the drift back to 102.815 might take? I want to get my dish peaked, but I'm waiting for DirecTV 10 to return to its home position.


----------



## Sixto

gpg said:


> Any idea of how long the drift back to 102.815 might take? I want to get my dish peaked, but I'm waiting for DirecTV 10 to return to its home position.


5-10 days, but tough to know, last time they were in a hurry.


----------



## gpg

Sixto said:


> 5-10 days, but tough to know, last time they were in a hurry.


Thanks. Looks like I better wait for a couple of weeks just to be sure.


----------



## Sixto

gpg said:


> Thanks. Looks like I better wait for a couple of weeks just to be sure.


I'll continue to update post#1 with TLE updates until D10 is back to 102.815°, and will update the notification thread when the D10 drift is complete.

Would rather not leave this thread open for that 5-10 days, because the thread has a tendency to drift when nothing is going on.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> I'll continue to update post#1 with TLE updates until D10 is back to 102.815°, and will update the notification thread when the drift is complete.
> 
> Would rather not leave this thread open for that 5-10 days, *because the thread has a tendency to drift when nothing is going on. *


I like it better when satellites drift.


----------



## Carl Spock

Sixto said:


> Yes, this is a very important day.


Drinks on me!


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> To recap ...
> 
> D10 national HD went to D12 on 5/26/2010.
> 
> Returned to D10 on 6/16/2010.
> 
> 3 weeks, start to finish.


Great job!
:gott: DIRECTV
Textbook work! :up:


----------



## slimoli

Sixto

Don't you rest man ? Thank you very much for everything you do here.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> Sixto
> 
> Don't you rest man ? Thank you very much for everything you do here.


+1


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> We now have 15 transponders of open and available national HD bandwidth on D12.


:new_Eyecr

You sound like a proud new Daddy. :lol:

Thanks to you and all of the other smart peeps in this thread.


----------



## gpg

Sixto said:


> I'll continue to update post#1 with TLE updates until D10 is back to 102.815°, and will update the notification thread when the D10 drift is complete.
> 
> Would rather not leave this thread open for that 5-10 days, because the thread has a tendency to drift when nothing is going on.


Thanks, that would be very helpful. I'm in awe of your dedication to serve the members of this site.


----------



## ATARI

My last post to this thread:

Happy Happy Joy Joy

(and thanks again, Sixto)


----------



## ycebar

Just wondering if the fix were successful any chances on adding new lils in hd for areas that were announced yet


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> All indications have been that the corrective action on D10 was successful.
> 
> It's not clear whether we'll see any public statements (or any details).


If the value of the D10 asset has changed significantly, we might see a SEC filing - that's how we first learned about the issues on D10 in the first place?


----------



## smiddy

Sah-wheat! Way to go DirecTV, "finding a Way!" that is so awesome. Now we can get back to our regularly schedule geeky events, eh?  Seriously though, this means we can start anticipating much more HD Channels to light up in the near future, right?!


----------



## georule

I'm moderately curious why there is so much variability in my D10 CONUS signal strength when the D12 is just dead-on 95/96 across the board. My dish hasn't been touched in this period.

The D10 CONUS readings are by no means "bad" --they run from 85-95, with eight of the fourteen in the 88-90 range. It just seems a little odd that they have a good deal of variability in them when the D12 are so invariable (and beautifully high). Nor have I noticed any significant change in them as D10 ambled the few miles from one spot to another and back.

Does that say something about the two sats themselves?


----------



## kevinturcotte

Sixto said:


> D10/D12 News (5/7/2010):
> [*]D12 now has 15 transponders of open and available national HD bandwidth. The 16th transponder has the recently launched 5 HD channels.​




So this gives D12 room for how many more HD channels?​


----------



## Stuart Sweet

50 or so if I recall.


----------



## LameLefty

kevinturcotte said:


> So this gives D12 room for how many more HD channels?


Well, at a ballpark of 5 channels per transponder, that's 75. Of course, I believe a chunk of that will be kept in reserve for at least a little while.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

LameLefty said:


> Well, at a ballpark of 5 channels per transponder, that's 75. Of course, I believe a chunk of that will be kept in reserve for at least a little while.


So 50 for full time channels and 30 for part time sports?


----------



## ccsoftball7

LameLefty said:


> Well, at a ballpark of 5 channels per transponder, that's 75. Of course, I believe a chunk of that will be kept in reserve for at least a little while.


I :heart: this!!!

:balloons: :balloons: :balloons: :balloons: :balloons: :balloons:


----------



## smiddy

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So 50 for full time channels and 30 for part time sports?


...give or take a channel or two.


----------



## GP245

And I believe a big chunk, unfortunately, will be devoted to Pay VOD channels where Direct can make some handsome revenue!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

GP245 said:


> And I believe a big chunk, unfortunately, will be devoted to Pay VOD channels where Direct can make some handsome revenue!


Gotta pay for D14 somehow.


----------



## smiddy

GP245 said:


> And I believe a big chunk, unfortunately, will be devoted to Pay VOD channels where Direct can make some handsome revenue!





Coca Cola Kid said:


> Gotta pay for D14 somehow.


Yep, and BSS, whatever that may bring.


----------



## tonyd79

GP245 said:


> And I believe a big chunk, unfortunately, will be devoted to Pay VOD channels where Direct can make some handsome revenue!


They use many of those for part time sporting events. Rather than waste a channel when the sports are not on or take down a fulltime channel (like they had to do with TNT on NFL Sundays a couple of years back and feel the wrath of customers and the media), they use the dead time of those channels for PPV.


----------



## trdrjeff

So if I have this right, D12 is empty & the HD channels recently added are on D10?


----------



## Sixto

kevinturcotte said:


> So this gives D12 room for how many more HD channels?


There's 16 national D12 transponders.

1 transponder is used now (5 channels already launched).

22 more channels (14+8 Cinema) by month end, plus a few more 3D. That takes 5 more transponders.

That leaves 10 transponders.

And we have no idea yet how the new movie service will be implemented.


----------



## slimoli

trdrjeff said:


> So if I have this right, D12 is empty & the HD channels recently added are on D10?


No, the 5 new HD channels are on D12 and the old ones are back to D10. New channels will be on D12.


----------



## dewey

Sixto said:


> Yes, this is a very important day.
> 
> This thread will remain open for the remainder of today (6/16), but will close at 11:59pm ET tonight.


What?! :eek2:

As a long time lurker this is very troubling. Reading Sixto's threads with my morning coffee has become a standard routine for me. What will I do now? Did someone mention D14? Where is that thread? 

I'm sure I speak for many other lurkers. Thanks for all of the hard work and dedication from the many knowledgable contributers. It has been an interesting ride!


----------



## Sixto

trdrjeff said:


> So if I have this right, D12 is empty & the HD channels recently added are on D10?


The map is here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2366653​


----------



## antzona

Sixto said:


> The procedure was for the spot beams only (as you probably know).
> 
> Relative to details:


Please tell me the spot beams they corrected are related to the HD locals in Bakersfield (and Monterey) that suddenly dropped from the list in early '09. I would love to not have to switch to cable.


----------



## bemenaker

dewey said:


> What?! :eek2:
> 
> As a long time lurker this is very troubling. Reading Sixto's threads with my morning coffee has become a standard routine for me. What will I do now? Did someone mention D14? Where is that thread?
> 
> I'm sure I speak for many other lurkers. Thanks for all of the hard work and dedication from the many knowledgable contributers. It has been an interesting ride!


D14 was just announced as a new purchase agreement. D14 won't be ready to launch for at least a year, I'd say probably 18 months. For now, you will just have to be happy with 50 HD channels that D12 is going to be bringing us.


----------



## dontknow

bemenaker said:


> D14 was just announced as a new purchase agreement. D14 won't be ready to launch for at least a year, I'd say probably 18 months. For now, you will just have to be happy with 50 HD channels that D12 is going to be bringing us.


OK Sixto has 18 month vacation right after D10 is parked


----------



## dontknow




----------



## cb7214

Great News Indeed. Bring on the HD!!!


----------



## seern

Well the festvo this week is a healthy D10, now next Wednesday we could get new hd.


----------



## georule

GP245 said:


> And I believe a big chunk, unfortunately, will be devoted to Pay VOD channels where Direct can make some handsome revenue!


That's also a very appropriate place to "park" spare capacity while still making revenue from it until you need it. It's a lot easier to repurpose those channels towards new HD channels that will begin broadcasting at a later date than it would be to drop some other channel that some small but dedicated and vocal contingent will react like you just ripped a huge hunk of not-quite-mortal flesh from their body if you drop it.

We are not yet in a world where every cable channel you'd like to have a HD feed of is actually broadcasting in HD yet. Not to mention any new channels coming online or in the pipeline. They have to save some capacity for those.


----------



## GregLee

lwilli201 said:


> Not sure how Directv gets the local signals back to the uplink location from Hawaii. Getting the HD locals to the uplinks sounds like a very expensive process.


About a year ago there was a rumor that that was exactly the problem. Terrain prevented an OTA signal getting to the uplink facility, and no one was willing to pay for a fiber optic landline. However, months ago, Dish, which shares the satellite uplink with DirecTV, began carrying the local NBC station in HD. So, that was a good guess, but ...


----------



## Lord Vader

bemenaker said:


> D14 was just announced as a new purchase agreement. D14 won't be ready to launch for at least a year, I'd say probably 18 months.


More like 2013.


----------



## Dark Horse

doctor j said:


> A Quick check of data stream has Biloxi, MS, Joplin, MO, and Idaho Falls, ID LIL's in their appropriate space and some look active. Await confirmation!??
> 
> Doctor j


No locals this morning for the Idaho Falls/Pocatello area.  I hope the other areas got theirs though, as it looks like I'll have to wait for the (possible) festivus next week.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Looks like the repairs were not only successfully, but slightly ahead of schedule. WOO HOO !!!! 

This certainly sets the table for D12 rolling out more content next week.

Super news Sixto - great job on the updated transponder charts!


----------



## doctor j

Dark Horse said:


> No locals this morning for the Idaho Falls/Pocatello area.  I hope the other areas got theirs though, as it looks like I'll have to wait for the (possible) festivus next week.


LIL lookup tool lists Idaho Falls as "Available".

Several of the biloxi accounts had to call Directv and add locals +/or refresh services.

Doctor j


----------



## hdtvfan0001

doctor j said:


> LIL lookup tool lists Idaho Falls as "Available".
> 
> Several of the biloxi accounts had to call Directv and add locals +/or refresh services.
> 
> Doctor j


Perhaps there will be further updates over the next few days prior to D10/D12 actually launching the new LIL's...


----------



## Dark Horse

doctor j said:


> LIL lookup tool lists Idaho Falls as "Available".
> 
> Several of the biloxi accounts had to call Directv and add locals +/or refresh services.
> 
> Doctor j


Thanks, Doctor j. I'll have to look into it later this afternoon.


----------



## Rusty_Clown

Thanks for all your time and effort Sixto. Awesome job!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Since we're near the end of the D10 Adventure..

I'd like to also pass on my thanks to Sixto for his countless hours of work on the updates, data, and unusual "ride" of D10 of late.

Many thanks.

:up: :up: :up:


----------



## Dolly

Rusty_Clown said:


> Thanks for all your time and effort Sixto. Awesome job!


Thanks Sixto :goodjob: And to D* :hurah:


----------



## ccsoftball7

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since we're near the end of the D10 Adventure..
> 
> I'd like to also pass on my thanks to Sixto for his countless hours of work on the updates, data, and unusual "ride" of D10 of late.
> 
> Many thinks.
> 
> :up: :up: :up:





Dolly said:


> Thanks Sixto :goodjob: And to D* :hurah:


+1


----------



## loudo

Sixto, excellent job guy. :gott:


----------



## Sixto

The Governor called and the thread got a reprieve. 

The thread will remain open, at least for a while, as D10 drifts back.

It may get unstuck after a little while.

But let's stay on topic, which should be satellite-only, we'll leave the HD channel anticipating/debating to the other thread.


----------



## davring

Thanks Sixto for keeping all informed, how you find the time to do it all amazes me, thanks again.


----------



## Draconis

davring said:


> Thanks Sixto for keeping all informed, how you find the time to do it all amazes me, thanks again.


Agreed, 110%.


----------



## HIGHWAY

Thank you sixto. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Doug Brott

Interesting day for this to be done .. interesting indeed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Interesting day for this to be done .. interesting indeed.


One day of multiple successful fixes...yes.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Thanks from the cranky geeks and geezers in my neck of the prairie, guys.

Truly welcome info - every day.


----------



## retromzc

Did the successful repair of D10 have anything to do with the Chicago area getting 3 new hd lil's today? WYCC-PBS, WCIU-TheU & WPWR-MNT.


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> Interesting day for this to be done .. interesting indeed.


And Just Why Is It An Interesting Day???

Can You Explain For The Unwashed Masses Who Need Enlightenment!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> And Just Why Is It An Interesting Day???
> 
> Can You Explain For The Unwashed Masses Who Need Enlightenment!!!


Informed people already know. :lol:

...and those who read all the recent posts here...


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Informed people already know. :lol:
> 
> ...and those who read all the recent posts here...


Well, I Actually Have A Life To Live Outside Of The DBSTALK.COM FORUM so I don't read and post thousands of posts like some people who seem to have endless and limitless amounts of time on their hands to spend a life here reading all of these threads and posts.

Hopefully after I Retire from My Honey Do Lists I can spend all my time here reading everything that transpires!!! :lol:


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> Interesting day for this to be done .. interesting indeed.


Time to change your sig?

61610


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> Time to change your sig?
> 
> 61610


It would seem so...then again...it might be considered a historical marker of sorts.


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It would seem so...then again...it might be considered a historical marker of sorts.


Are any of these it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_16


----------



## je4755

Sixto said:


> The thread will remain open, at least for a while, as D10 drifts back.


And an additional thanks for those of us who had their dish realigned while D10 was being "ameliorated" and may need a "re-realignment" after we learn it has returned to the normal orbital location.


----------



## Davenlr

je4755 said:


> And an additional thanks for those of us who had their dish realigned while D10 was being "ameliorated" and may need a "re-realignment" after we learn it has returned to the normal orbital location.


If that is the case, it was aligned incorrectly.


----------



## Carl Spock

No, the alignment now needs its own amelioration.

Once you start ameliorating, there's no end to it. :grin:

*I think every post in the last few hours of this thread should have the word amelioration in it.*


----------



## Sixto

Just checked D12 to see if any new test channels got put up, now that D10 content is gone. 

Nope.

Seems like it's next week, as expected.


----------



## tonyd79

Sixto said:


> Just checked D12 to see if any test channels got put up, now that D10 content is gone.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Seems like it's next week, as expected.


062310


----------



## Gary Toma

On the 6/16 TPN Map, 5 *TEST channels are showing on D12, TPN 20. A total of 10 channels showing, above and beyond the TPN 19 channels.


----------



## Sixto

gct said:


> On the 6/16 TPN Map, 5 *TEST channels are showing on D12, TPN 20. A total of 10 channels showing, above and beyond the TPN 19 channels.


Yep, those 5 have been in the guide data for D12 transponder 20 since 2/26/2010. And their name and description data haven't changed in months. Been wondering what they are for just as long. 

With D10's 70 slots of content, and D12's 5, those 5 slots could have been used a month ago, but thought maybe they were holding back full throttle to play it safe.


----------



## Groundhog45

The futures so bright, I have to wear shades. Thanks for everything, Sixto.

Thanks, DirecTV.


----------



## RunnerFL

Doug Brott said:


> Interesting day for this to be done .. interesting indeed.


6/16?


----------



## RunnerFL

Thanks for your hard work on this thread Sixto, we all appreciate it. Now take some time for yourself.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RunnerFL said:


> Thanks for your hard work on this thread Sixto, we all appreciate it. *Now take some time for yourself*.


OK...that's long enough.

We'll need a D14 thread soon. :lol:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

hdtvfan0001 said:


> OK...that's long enough.
> 
> We'll need a D14 thread soon. :lol:


We already got one

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=179143


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> We already got one
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=179143


But that's not a Sixto thread...with substantiative information.


----------



## Sixto

Soon.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Soon.


That is a painful 4 letter word, kinda like work


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> That is a painful 4 letter word, kinda like work


Yep, just need to think about what's next. Maybe a general satellite thread for discussion, that's strictly satellite, changes to D12, D14, BSS, ... still need to give it some more thought, would keep a similar post-1 with links and stuff.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I thought this thread was closing last night at 12??


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I thought this thread was closing last night at 12??


See:


Sixto said:


> The Governor called and the thread got a reprieve.
> 
> The thread will remain open, at least for a while, as D10 drifts back.
> 
> It may get unstuck after a little while.
> 
> But let's stay on topic, which should be satellite-only, we'll leave the HD channel anticipating/debating to the other thread.


----------



## Sixto

As of right now, the last of the FCC space station applications have been granted.

There were three open transfer-and-control applications.

All now granted:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=823048​
Nothing now open with the FCC for satellite space stations.


----------



## mp12point7

I think I can speak for many of us, Sixto, when I encourage you to get a permanent thread started on satellite mechanics and changes. The excitement of D10 & D12 have brought many of us to your "babies" multiple times a day. We have learned much and look forward to being up to date through your good works and the contributions of all our friends here.


----------



## HIGHWAY

What state in northeast sixto. Please


----------



## lwilli201

Sixto said:


> As of right now, the last of the FCC space station applications have been granted.
> 
> There were three open transfer-and-control applications.
> 
> All now granted:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=823048​
> Nothing now open with the FCC for satellite space stations.


Now that News Corps is rid of Directv they are after BSkyB. Looks like a big game to me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65E13920100615


----------



## Sixto

mp12point7 said:


> I think I can speak for many of us, Sixto, when I encourage you to get a permanent thread started on satellite mechanics and changes. The excitement of D10 & D12 have brought many of us to your "babies" multiple times a day. We have learned much and look forward to being up to date through your good works and the contributions of all our friends here.


Thinking of creating a satellite only thread to continue our discussions with links to the old threads for easy access. Will start a closed thread and start populating it soon, and then close this and open that.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Thinking of creating a satellite only thread to continue our discussions with links to the old threads for easy access. Will start a closed thread and start populating it soon, and then close this and open that.


Kudos - good idea.


----------



## Impala1ss

Sixto - another lurker who is very grateful for all you do. Thanks. :goodjob::goodjob:


----------



## Jon J

I'm about to ask the stupidest question of Sixto he has ever received...

How would one pronounce your screen name...

Six-toe or Six-too or something completely different? (Sorry Monty).


----------



## Sixto

Jon J said:


> I'm about to ask the stupidest question of Sixto he has ever received...
> 
> How would one pronounce your screen name...
> 
> Six-toe or Six-too or something completely different? (Sorry Monty).


Six-toe. 

Back to topic.


----------



## tonyd79

Sixto Keed, was a friend of mine. Doo doo dee doo.


----------



## raoul5788

tonyd79 said:


> Sixto Keed, was a friend of mine. Doo doo dee doo.


GROAN!


----------



## georule

Another attaboy on the Sixto pile here.


----------



## P Smith

I understand the personal's ties, but what is it have a common with the THREAD ?!
:backtotop:


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> I understand the personal's ties, but what is it have a common with the THREAD ?!
> :backtotop:


Um.... look at the thread title... :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> I understand the personal's ties, but what is it have a common with the THREAD ?!
> :backtotop:


English translation, please?


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> Um.... look at the thread title... :lol: :lol: :lol:


If you mean no 'life' of D10 after the modded "D10 live!" in the topic, then I give up. 
Or as Sixto proposed: *EOL the thread*.


----------



## Sixto

As expected, a little thread drifting  ... thanks for the support ... let's move on ... more about sats ... we'll soon transition to other satellite items in a new thread ... soon ... in the meantime, best let D10 do the drifting ... no new TLE today.


----------



## James Long

Hint: It isn't TomRobertsonReport:

This thread would not be possible without the constant attention to following the issue that Sixto provided. Without Sixto half the thread would be missing ... the good half.


----------



## Sixto

The origin: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1680580

I've considered several times of removing the reference, because it should be totally about the content, but then always figure that's it's a good way to denote a reference or status thread, but the thought was the creation of Mr. hdtvfan0001. 

And it's a good kick in the pants, to always be timely, accurate, helpful, and understandable ... with the assistance of Lefty and the other great talent at DBSTalk ... and every once in while we get a special visitor such as Anik.

Ok, back to content ... awaiting the next drift update .... also, as mentioned this morning, the D12 channels are now starting to be spread across the transponders ... I do need to update the transponder map with the test channel locations.


----------



## tonyd79

James Long said:


> Hint: It isn't TomRobertsonReport:
> 
> This thread would not be possible without the constant attention to following the issue that Sixto provided. Without Sixto half the thread would be missing ... the good half.


true but it is way more than half.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> The origin: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1680580
> 
> I've considered several times of removing the reference, because it should be totally about the content, but then always figure that's it's a good way to denote a reference or status thread, but the thought was the creation of Mr. hdtvfan0001.


Can't imagine it being anything but the Sixto Report. 

Credibility, Great Info, and Worthy Credit for the Effort -- all in one title.


----------



## Ed Campbell

_"Now that News Corps is rid of Directv they are after BSkyB. Looks like a big game to me."_

And Murdoch promises qualitative changes to that particular satellite service - one that would have angered as many D* subscribers as it probably will in the UK.

He proposes turning BSkyB's free-to-air sports news channel into PPV.


----------



## Sixto

Post#1 now contains the latest status for both D10 and D12.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Post#1 now contains the latest status for both D10 and D12.


Super news and Super job Sixto!

Looks like this thread is approaching the sunset , and before you know it (and before you likely want :lol, we'll be repeating things with D14.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

All the satellites are up and running. Life is good. 

Mike


----------



## smiddy

Thanks Sixto for being the constant force in keeping us all informed!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

MicroBeta said:


> All the satellites are up and running. Life is good.
> 
> Mike


Life will be better once they start filling them up with more HD channels.


----------



## Skyboss

Sixto said:


> D10/D12 News (5/7/2010)
> [*]14 additional HD channels and 2 additional SD channels are expected to begin transmitting from D12 on 6/23/2010:
> 
> 252 LIFEHD D12 14 1010
> 312 HALLHD D12 12 1020
> *[*]348 FSTV D12 17 1030 (SD)
> [*]363 GEB D12 14 1050 (SD)*
> 502 HB2eHD D12 13 1040
> 509 HBOZHD D12 16 1040
> 530 SBLKHD D12 19 1030
> 531 SCINHD D12 14 1030
> 535 ENCeHD D12 19 1040
> 550 SHBYHD D12 19 1010
> 551 SHNXHD D12 17 1040
> 552 ShWmHD D12 18 1030
> 556 TMCXHD D12 18 1040
> 654 FSFLHD D12 17 1010
> 696 CSNBHD D12 18 1050
> 698 CSCAHD D12 19 1050


Really... SD on D12? What a waste. :nono2:


----------



## slimoli

Skyboss said:


> Really... SD on D12? What a waste. :nono2:


Yep, those are channels that probably pay Directv to be broadcasted instead of charging for it. Nature of the business.


----------



## bamaweather

Actually, I think this is a situation where they are required to carry a certain percentage of "public service" channels. So they might not be getting paid by those channels. They may just be rounding out whatever amount they are required to carry.


----------



## slimoli

bamaweather said:


> Actually, I think this is a situation where they are required to carry a certain percentage of "public service" channels. So they might not be getting paid by those channels. They may just be rounding out whatever amount they are required to carry.


I don't think they are "public service" channels.


----------



## Sixto

Skyboss said:


> Really... SD on D12? What a waste. :nono2:


I've clarified the wording in post#1 relative to the SD channels, 6/23/2010 is just a guess based on the FSTV and GEB test channels appearing at the same time as the 14 HD channels.


----------



## oldcrooner

slimoli said:


> I don't think they are "public service" channels.


Neither do I. I think they are more akin to shopping channels with all the huckstering that goes on.  I have never understood why religious channels are considered to be "public service". Some regulations need to be changed, IMO.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

oldcrooner said:


> Neither do I. I think they are more akin to shopping channels with all the huckstering that goes on.  I have never understood why religious channels are considered to be "public service". Some regulations need to be changed, IMO.


I simply call them all "worthless channels" to keep it simple. :lol:

That's one of the beauties of having a configurable "favorites" list...removing those.


----------



## Dolly

MicroBeta said:


> All the satellites are up and running. Life is good.
> 
> Mike


How sweet it is :balloons: And to Sixto a BIG THANK YOU :sunsmile:


----------



## WINDII

May I extend my thanks SIXTO for all the work you have done keeping us informed, I do have one question, maybe this is the wrong thread, if so I apologize, but with the list of new HD channels given out is it wrong to assume the AMC HD is dead for any time soon?


----------



## James Long

oldcrooner said:


> slimoli said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think they are "public service" channels.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither do I. I think they are more akin to shopping channels with all the huckstering that goes on.  I have never understood why religious channels are considered to be "public service". Some regulations need to be changed, IMO.
Click to expand...

The rule is that satellite providers must set aside 4-7% of their capacity for "public interest" channels. These channels must be non-commercial ... and they pay a base cost for the space they consume. That narrows the field. Finding non-commercial stations that have the money to pay their way onto satellite.

RFD TV was a PI channel ... until the FCC ruled that they played commercial content and they became a regular channel. There are non-religious PIs such as Cspan and Nasa. But with the legal requirement, as long as the channel qualifies and can pay DirecTV doesn't have much of a choice. Religious stations qualify as non-commercial educational and somehow they have the money to pay. FSTV isn't religious. DirecTV has to make an annual filing proving that they are within the law. If they are not living up to the requirements they can be fined by the FCC.

The law does not specify the definition of the channels ... so a satellite slot with 100 HD channels doesn't have to have four HD public interest channels ... it just has to have four channels set aside to any qualified broadcaster.

They are tiny channels, lock them out and move along (once they are available) - or enjoy them. They are not preventing any new HD from being launched.


----------



## Sixto

Drifting away! (75% home)

Note: the gap is interesting, seems like you wouldn't want to be tweaking anything to D10 until it's rock solid parked, and the signal levels between now and then just might not be perfect, assuming this TLE data is accurate.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-10
NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		06-18-2010 11:20:38
Orbit # at Epoch	1081
Inclination		0.039
RA of A. Node		110.693
Eccentricity		0.0003162
Argument of Perigee	255.052
Revs per day		1.00254933
Period			23h 56m 20s (1436.33 min)
Semi-major axis		42 169 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 805 km
Element number / age	508 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.7485° W
Lat			0.0290° S
Alt (km)		35 779.530

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
508 06-18 11:20 35,778 x 35,805     27 102.7485°W  0.0290°S  0.039°
507 06-16 05:41 35,785 x 35,790      4 102.6214°W  0.0103°N  0.033°
506 06-15 09:09 35,787 x 35,789      2 102.6071°W  0.0097°N  0.052°
505 06-14 07:50 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5920°W  0.0121°N  0.053°
504 06-13 16:43 35,784 x 35,789      5 102.5954°W  0.0266°S  0.052°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Drifting away! (75% home)
> 
> Note: the gap is interesting, seems like you wouldn't want to be tweaking anything to D10 until it's rock solid parked, and the signal levels between now and then just might not be perfect, assuming this TLE data is accurate.


Very cool....I may get a few signal levels along the way, just to see how it does/doesn't change.


----------



## mitchelljd

well, maybe having both satellites up and running now fully will mean alot more launched channels national for Directv.

I am really hoping for the following

1- AMC HD
2- E!
3- More HBO, CINEMAX, SHOWTIME, STARZ HD
4- EPIX HD channels


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I've been monitoring D10 and D12 carefully during each day (more than once), and still see slight variations in D10's signal levels, while D12 is solid on all transponders.


----------



## Sixto

mitchelljd said:


> well, maybe having both satellites up and running now fully will mean alot more launched channels national for Directv.
> 
> I am really hoping for the following
> 
> 1- AMC HD
> 2- E!
> 3- More HBO, CINEMAX, SHOWTIME, STARZ HD
> 4- EPIX HD channels


The bandwidth is certainly now available.

It now depends on business priorities, contracts, and access to the content.

All HD anticipation discussion here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952


----------



## P Smith

Sixto,

I send PM to you yesterday with a question - in case if you miss it I'm asking here:
can you tell us what LIL channel(s) reside on D12 now ?


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Sixto,
> 
> I send PM to you yesterday with a question - in case if you miss it I'm asking here:
> can you tell us what LIL channel(s) reside on D12 now ?


Been doing the usual daily monitoring/posting of national HD guide data (823/824), and since D12 went "live" the temp D12 LiL's are gone from the national data, except for those two WNTV channels.

It's assumed that the LiL's are on D12 for two reasons: 1) the FCC filing only referenced moving the nationals back, and 2) we've had at least one poster here and other sources that have mentioned that the old D10 LiL's may stay on D12 after the amelioration.

But then it's up to us to try to prove it.


----------



## P Smith

Well, after looking into data, I would say the [test *WNTV] channels definitely on D10, because TID is eq 220 [DCh] and belong to D10 TIDs range (100-239).

[If we could see PIDs at Ka sats ...]


----------



## Sixto

With today's additions, the D12 Transponder map in post#2 updated.

A couple of D12 transponders now full.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

D12 transponder levels as solid as ever in advance of this week's festivus new HD channels.

D10 still very solid, but noticed that transponder 7 and 11 slightly lower - these are basically unchanged form prior to the amelioration, sat temp move, and content reload.

Levels are all well into the "90's" for signal levels on both D12 and D10 here.

Left photo is D12 level readings just now and right is D10.


----------



## Sixto

D10 circling home base. Target 102.815°, with little gap.


Code:


NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		06-21-2010 05:48:27
Orbit # at Epoch	1084
Inclination		0.046
RA of A. Node		111.541
Eccentricity		0.0003096
Argument of Perigee	256.090
Revs per day		1.00255584
Period			23h 56m 19s (1436.32 min)
Semi-major axis		42 169 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 804 km
Element number / age	509 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.9193° W
Lat			0.0053° N
Alt (km)		35 795.960


[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
509 06-21 05:48 35,778 x 35,804     26 102.9193°W  0.0053°N  0.046°
508 06-18 11:20 35,778 x 35,805     27 102.7485°W  0.0290°S  0.039°
507 06-16 05:41 35,785 x 35,790      4 102.6214°W  0.0103°N  0.033°
506 06-15 09:09 35,787 x 35,789      2 102.6071°W  0.0097°N  0.052°
505 06-14 07:50 35,785 x 35,788      3 102.5920°W  0.0121°N  0.053°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Left photo is D12 level readings just now and right is D10.


I still wish they would label those 103 (D12) and 103 (D11) or 103-11 103-12, something other then ca and cb.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

TheRatPatrol said:


> I still wish they would label those 103 (D12) and 103 (D11) or 103-11 103-12, something other then ca and cb.


Yeah....maybe someday they will...


----------



## jefbal99

TheRatPatrol said:


> I still wish they would label those 103 (D12) and 103 (D11) or 103-11 103-12, something other then ca and cb.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yeah....maybe someday they will...


I highly doubt it, I believe the designation is for Conus A-Band and Conus B-Band


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> I highly doubt it, I believe the designation is for Conus A-Band and Conus B-Band


Well that is what they designate...for sure.....but then again...they could elect to use "end user" terminology as well if they felt there was a need to do so.

We went through a similar "naming transformation" with MRV and Whole Home DVR Service.

Maybe we'll see it, maybe not. In any case, there is not any kind of urgent need or mass confusion. Only a small % of folks even look there in the settings.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We went through a similar "naming transformation" with MRV and Whole Home DVR Service.


That one will almost surely bite them in the end if they come out with a real Whole Home DVR.


----------



## Hoosier205

harsh said:


> That one will almost surely bite them in the end if they come out with a real Whole Home DVR.


Surely


----------



## evan_s

Outside of these forums, I doubt any users know what D10 or D11 are anymore than they know what 103ca and 103 cb are. Ultimately, labeling the TP screen based on the satellite that happens to be at that location providing that service is a bad idea. Just look at dish to see how much sats can be moved around and used for different slots services.


----------



## Carl Spock

Hoosier205 said:


> harsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> That one will almost surely bite them in the end if they come out with a real Whole Home DVR.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely
Click to expand...

Marketing departments worrying about hyperbole? Never. It isn't in their DNA. They'll just come out with greater hyperbole the next time.

I remember when Panasonic came out with their very first CD player. The headline in their magazine ad was "Perfection Defined". I thought it would be interesting to see how they handled a second generation model. I shouldn't have worried. It was no problem for the marketing department. The next headline was "A Slight Improvement On Perfection". :grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> That one will almost surely bite them in the end if they come out with a real Whole Home DVR.


It's out there already.

Of course DirecTV customers have already received notifications with their statements, seen it in promotions, and also on their website.

It's call Whole Home DVR Service.


----------



## woj027

I've been reading this thread for a while now, but I don't recall seeing anything that describes what DirecTV actually did to D10. 
What was the "amelioration" process?
How successful was it?
What does D10 now have/provide that it didn't before?


----------



## raoul5788

woj027 said:


> I've been reading this thread for a while now, but I don't recall seeing anything that describes what DirecTV actually did to D10.
> What was the "amelioration" process?
> How successful was it?
> What does D10 now have/provide that it didn't before?


Directv may never say what they did to D10, or what the results were. It appears that the spot beam problem was fixed, allowing for more local hd availability eventually.


----------



## R0am3r

Sixto said:


> D10 circling home base. Target 102.815°, with little gap


Wow - I guess my SL3 only sees a very narrow piece of the sky. My D12 signals are all mid to high 80s. But, the D10 signals are sitting in the 60s. Time to put D10 in reverse and park it.


----------



## beakor

or time to peak your dish.


----------



## R0am3r

beakor said:


> or time to peak your dish.


I got it peaked last week by a D* tech. I would guess that once D10 settles at 102.815 degrees, it should be very similar to the D12 signals (mid 80s for me).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Now that both D12 and D10 are in service and with the new 14 HD channels launched....I just re-checked the signal levels, and they are as solid as ever.

While D10 fluctuated slightly during the "amelioration" period, the signal levels have been within 1-2% of the same numbers the entire period of time.

Nice work DirecTV.

The left screen image below is D12, and the right is D10.


----------



## Jon J

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now that both D12 and D10 are in service and with the new 14 HD channels launched....I just re-checked the signal levels, and they are as solid as ever.


I have signal levels in the mid to upper 90s on every other satellite in the arc except at 103. Levels are consistently in the low 80s both conus and spot.

What might be causing this wide variation.?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jon J said:


> I have signal levels in the mid to upper 90s on every other satellite in the arc except at 103. Levels are consistently in the low 80s both conus and spot.
> 
> What might be causing this wide variation.?


Signal levels of 80 something and up are considered OK...however...

It could be you need some Dish alignment "tweaking". I was always amazed to observe that when they did mine...how little directional change it took to see significantly different results.

A couple of degrees can actually sink or swim the signal levels. The 103 sat, as well as the 88 and 1010 sat, each as their "sweet spot" for alignment.


----------



## sdirv

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Signal levels of 80 something and up are considered OK...however....


I've been waiting to make the call until the birds settled down some in their drifting around the heavens.

Signals I'm seeing on D12 are in the mid to high 60's with one in the 50's. The channels look good most of the time with very occasional pixilation.

Time for a call and a dish tweak....


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sdirv said:


> I've been waiting to make the call until the birds settled down some in their drifting around the heavens.
> 
> Signals I'm seeing on D12 are in the mid to high 60's with one in the 50's. The channels look good most of the time with very occasional pixilation.
> 
> Time for a call and a dish tweak....


Absolutely....103 should also be way above that...the birds are solid now for a while...so a good time to get that alignment. By the way...if you have the Protection Plan, let them know that when you order the service visit - it should be free.


----------



## sdirv

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Absolutely....103 should also be way above that...the birds are solid now for a while...so a good time to get that alignment. By the way...if you have the Protection Plan, let them know that when you order the service visit - it should be free.


Just made the call, they'll be here tomorrow morning....

I don't have Protection Plan but was told I get one "free" service call every 12 "rolling" months and that this would be it.......otherwise, the dish tweak would have cost me $49.99.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sdirv said:


> Just made the call, they'll be here tomorrow morning....
> 
> I don't have Protection Plan but was told I get one "free" service call every 12 "rolling" months and that this would be it.......otherwise, the dish tweak would have cost me $49.99.


Very nice....now that's customer service.

I suspect you'll see totally new and much higher "numbers" tomorrow after the alignment.


----------



## gpg

Is D10 back at 102.815 yet?


----------



## Sixto

gpg said:


> Is D10 back at 102.815 yet?


Been no update since the latest in post#1.


----------



## nevea2be

My 103*CA numbers are in the mid 80's while my 103*CB are in the 70's. My 103*S has some in the 50's and my 99*C and S go from 60's to the 90's. Would it be worth it to have my dish aligned? I know it takes forever to get the signals from the 99 Sat's and my box even locked up the first time I did it and had to reboot it. I'm not sure what channel goes to what number to know how much the low numbers really effect my picture quality.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

nevea2be said:


> My 103*CA numbers are in the mid 80's while my 103*CB are in the 70's. My 103*S has some in the 50's and my 99*C and S go from 60's to the 90's. Would it be worth it to have my dish aligned?


Not just worth it...recommended.


----------



## nevea2be

I'll have to set that up then. Thanks


----------



## Sixto

*Home Sweet Home.* 


Code:


Name			DirecTV-10
NORAD #			31862
Epoch (UTC)		06-24-2010 08:03:39
Orbit # at Epoch	1087
Inclination		0.029
RA of A. Node		152.212
Eccentricity		0.0000251
Argument of Perigee	278.552
Revs per day		1.00269744
Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 788 km
Element number / age	510 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.8261° W
Lat			0.0020° S
Alt (km)		35 787.480

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u] Longitude[/u] [u] Latitude[/u] [u] Inclin [/u][/B]
510 06-24 08:03 35,786 x 35,788      2 102.8261°W  0.0020°N  0.029°
509 06-21 05:48 35,778 x 35,804     26 102.9193°W  0.0053°N  0.046°
508 06-18 11:20 35,778 x 35,805     27 102.7485°W  0.0290°S  0.039°
507 06-16 05:41 35,785 x 35,790      4 102.6214°W  0.0103°N  0.033°
506 06-15 09:09 35,787 x 35,789      2 102.6071°W  0.0097°N  0.052°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## gpg

Time to schedule an appointment to peak my dish.


----------



## HoosierBoy

And a close to one of the most interesting times in DTV history.


----------



## georule

I'm still curious why there is so much more variability in my D10 signals than my D12 signals. 

D12 varies from 95 all the way to 96. 

D10 is 87-95, with 10 under 90 and 4 from 91-95.

Sat at 99 could probably use a tweak on my system (some high 70s and a bunch of 80s), but I likely won't call them to do anything about it over just that.


----------



## dcowboy7

Other than rain/snow fade are there other reasons for needing high signal #s ?


----------



## gphvid

dcowboy7 said:


> Other than rain/snow fade are there other reasons for needing high signal #s ?


I've been running in the hi 70's to mid 80's on D10, D11, and D12 since and have had my dish peaked. Yet I get good HD with no problems. I also live in an area that doesn't have alot of rain most of the year, so rain fade isn't an issue. I have noticed I will lose HD lock when signal strengths are about the mid 30s or so.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> *Home Sweet Home.* ...


Good, it's time to solve a mystery with D12's LiL transponders !


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> *Home Sweet Home.*


BRING ON THE UPLINKING OF HD-LIL!! 

For those of with lowers signals on D10 than D12, you can add me to the list as well. D10's signals are around 10% lower than D12's.

~Alan


----------



## georule

dcowboy7 said:


> Other than rain/snow fade are there other reasons for needing high signal #s ?


If you live somewhere you rarely get moderately heavy rain/snow, then my understanding is 'no'. Under those circumstances, you could likely get by just fine in the high 50s/low 60s.

If you do get moderately heavy rain/snow on a regular basis, then something in the 90s will definitely be noticeably helpful. Not to the point, perhaps, of eliminating rain fade, but making it pretty rare.

I'm in the 90s on most, and usually only lose signal for a few minutes when NOAA radar shows orange or red over the house.

I got to try out my new AM-21 under those conditions for the first time a few days back. Lost D* satellites for a few minutes in the middle of a tornado watch, but the AM-21 kept me truckin' on the local newscasts coverage of the tornado activity in the vicinity, with just a little pixellation here and there.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> BRING ON THE UPLINKING OF HD-LIL!!
> 
> For those of with lowers *signals on D10 *than D12, you can add me to the list as well. D10's signals are around 10% lower than D12's.
> 
> ~Alan


About 2% lower here....still 92+ on all transponders - mostly 95-96.


----------



## texasbrit

My D12 signals range from 94 to 96. D10 from 91 to 95. Almost identical signals on both my SL5 dishes.


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## Sixto

Several new Earth Station Apps for those interested:http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number​


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## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> BRING ON THE UPLINKING OF HD-LIL!!
> 
> For those of with lowers signals on D10 than D12, you can add me to the list as well. D10's signals are around 10% lower than D12's.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> About 2% lower here....still 92+ on all transponders - mostly 95-96.


Just goes to show how sensitive the tweaking on the KA dishes are.

You have only a 2% differences between D10 and D12, and I have almost a 10% difference between two satellites that are (to us here on Earth) essentially in the same location. :eek2:

~Alan


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## slimoli

Alan Gordon said:


> Just goes to show how sensitive the tweaking on the KA dishes are.
> 
> You have only a 2% differences between D10 and D12, and I have almost a 10% difference between two satellites that are (to us here on Earth) essentially in the same location. :eek2:
> 
> ~Alan


I have 40% difference between the lowest signal on the D12 and the highest on the D10 (100/60). I was waiting for the moves to end and now I will call my MDU company for some adjustments.


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## Davenlr

slimoli said:


> I have 40% difference between the lowest signal on the D12 and the highest on the D10 (100/60). I was waiting for the moves to end and now I will call my MDU company for some adjustments.


81 low, 93 high on D10 (only 3 in the 90s)
88 low, 95 high on D12 (only 2 in the 80s)


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## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Several new Earth Station Apps for those interested:http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number​


Would those be facilities to uplink to D12?


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## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> *Just goes to show how sensitive the tweaking on the KA dishes are. *
> 
> You have only a 2% differences between D10 and D12, and I have almost a 10% difference between two satellites that are (to us here on Earth) essentially in the same location. :eek2:
> 
> ~Alan


Very true - proper Dish alignment is very important, and even more so with the latest sats. Most folks are likely in good shape, but small tweaks can also address most of those reporting low signal levels.


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## sdirv

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Very true - proper Dish alignment is very important, and even more so with the latest sats. Most folks are likely in good shape, but small tweaks can also address most of those reporting low signal levels.


Tech showed up this morning on time, replaced all the connectors from the LNB down to the junction box on the side of my house, replaced the LNB, installed a 3rd leg/support on my dish mount, aligned the dish.

All signals on 103cb (which were in the low 90's) are now in the mid 80's, signals from 103ca (which were in the high 60's low 70's) are now in the low 80's except for transponders 18 and 20 which are reading 51.

99c (which was reading in the 40s/50s) is now in the low 80's.........

I'll have to see if this is good enough......I was seeing occasional pixilation on a few of the new D12 channels before, if that goes away <shrug>


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## hdtvfan0001

sdirv said:


> Tech showed up this morning on time, replaced all the connectors from the LNB down to the junction box on the side of my house, replaced the LNB, installed a 3rd leg/support on my dish mount, aligned the dish.
> 
> All signals on 103cb (which were in the low 90's) are now in the mid 80's, signals from 103ca (which were in the high 60's low 70's) are now in the low 80's except for transponders 18 and 20 which are reading 51.
> 
> 99c (which was reading in the 40s/50s) is now in the low 80's.........
> 
> I'll have to see if this is good enough......I was seeing occasional pixellation on a few of the new D12 channels before, if that goes away <shrug>


Kudos for the installer on all those efforts....but I would have expected higher levels after all that work.

Time will tell if those levels work for you....but they at least are better overall.


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## dcowboy7

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Very true - proper Dish alignment is very important


Why ? other than rain/snow issues if thats a problem.

Im not saying 60s is ok but do we really need a bunch of 98s ?


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## slimoli

dcowboy7 said:


> Why ? other than rain/snow issues if thats a problem.
> 
> Im not saying 60s is ok but do we really need a bunch of 98s ?


I had my first Directv installation 6 years ago with signal always in the 70s or 80s. Had loss of signal very few times under very bad weather , always for few minutes only. Now I have 95-100 (with the exception of D12 ) and also lose signal during the same kind of weather. I doubt there is a significant difference of signal quality between 80 and 100 but I wouldn' be happy with 60s. Most people here will disagree and will always say anything below 90 is bad.


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## tonyd79

slimoli said:


> I had my first Directv installation 6 years ago with signal always in the 70s or 80s. Had loss of signal very few times under very bad weather , always for few minutes only. Now I have 95-100 (with the exception of D12 ) and also lose signal during the same kind of weather. I doubt there is a significant difference of signal quality between 80 and 100 but I wouldn' be happy with 60s. Most people here will disagree and will always say anything below 90 is bad.


The difference is that the newer signals are more prone to rain fade. My signals are pretty consistent across the board but when a thunderhead comes in the first signal to go and last to come back are on 99 and 103. 101 has the most staying power.

You want higher signals because they will degrade in rain fade. The higher you get the less likely you get to a threshhold where they fade (actually much lower than 60. more like 50 and 40).


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## slimoli

tonyd79 said:


> The difference is that the newer signals are more prone to rain fade. My signals are pretty consistent across the board but when a thunderhead comes in the first signal to go and last to come back are on 99 and 103. 101 has the most staying power.
> 
> You want higher signals because they will degrade in rain fade. The higher you get the less likely you get to a threshhold where they fade (actually much lower than 60. more like 50 and 40).


I don't disagree, just said the difference between 80 and 100 is not dramatic based on my own real experience. When the weather gets really bad , signal is lost anyway. Obviously my experience doesn't include snow, since I live in the tropics.


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## hdtvfan0001

dcowboy7 said:


> Why ? other than rain/snow issues if thats a problem.
> 
> I'm not saying 60s is ok but do we really need a bunch of 98s ?


The recommended levels are 90+.

Why? - to get the best viewing experience - the least chance of any sign of signal dropouts, pixellation, audio drops, etc. It would seem somewhat strange that anyone would not prefer to have the best viewing possible.

As for snow/rain fade...that has been discussed at nauseum in other threads and is waaaaaay off topic in this one.

I can tell you that except for the most severe lightening-charged thunderstorms (where I'm headed for the basement anyway), I don't see much of anything coming from rain alone. In fact, during a recent "monsoon" rainstorm....never lost the signal for a second. Signal strength can't hurt in that regard either. Ironically, my Comcast neighbor lost his signal for 3 hours that night.

As for D10 and D12 - they do transmit solid and reliable signals. While short-term signal loss can indeed occur during severe storms...I would make the argument that the last thing you should be doing during a major lightening/thunderstorm is watch TV anyway.

I've been watching DirecTV in 3 different states, snow, ice, rain, etc. for over 15 years now...and still...my outage time pales in comparison with every cable service user I know.

A weather guy doesn't need to tell me things are that bad, and long before the time things start to improve...I can watch TV at will anyway.


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## TBlazer07

sdirv said:


> Tech showed up this morning on time, replaced all the connectors from the LNB down to the junction box on the side of my house, replaced the LNB, installed a 3rd leg/support on my dish mount, aligned the dish.
> 
> All signals on 103cb (which were in the low 90's) are now in the mid 80's, signals from 103ca (which were in the high 60's low 70's) are now in the low 80's except for transponders 18 and 20 which are reading 51.
> 
> 99c (which was reading in the 40s/50s) is now in the low 80's.........
> 
> I'll have to see if this is good enough......I was seeing occasional pixilation on a few of the new D12 channels before, if that goes away <shrug>


I had a similar experience Tuesday. The tech worked for 2 hours and couldn't get me a signal better than 85 on 99 and 103. Finally he replaced the LNB and without even touching the alignment just about everything was mid-90's. Bad LNB in my case.


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## tonyd79

slimoli said:


> I don't disagree, just said the difference between 80 and 100 is not dramatic based on my own real experience. When the weather gets really bad , signal is lost anyway. Obviously my experience doesn't include snow, since I live in the tropics.


Since you live in the tropics your rain is probably stepwise from light to holy hell!!!!

I have seen low 80s versus 90s make a difference in Maryland. True when it drops to zero, it drops. But the same storms I had problems with last year with high 70s to low 80s are not a problem now that I am in high 80s low 90s. (almost everyone gets a range of 5-10 points on transponders).


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## hdtvfan0001

TBlazer07 said:


> I had a similar experience Tuesday. The tech worked for 2 hours and couldn't get me a signal better than 85 on 99 and 103. Finally he replaced the LNB and without even touching the alignment just about everything was mid-90's. *Bad LNB in my case*.


Yup....I've seen it happen at least 3 times firsthand with friend's locations.

In my case...earlier in the year...during a Dish alignment (after 6 years), they finally convinced me to replace my AT-9 with a new Slimine....that too was good for adding about 4 points to every transponder.

Despite the best equipment, connections, SWiM, DECA, and Dish....your signal will only be as good as your LNB. Guess I don't' have to convince you, huh?


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## P Smith

> Bad LNB in my case


 - perhaps it's not bad, but got little degradation ? 10% is not that bad.


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## n3ntj

Now that D10 and D12 are both in service, will we see any changes to D* plans regarding HD national or local markets not being serviced yet? I would assume prior announcements for new cities for HD locals and national HD channels were based upon on D10 or D12 being in service, but now that the D10 fix was successful, I would guess there is a lot of available bandwidth.

I'd still like to see the CW and PBS affiliates added for the Harrisburg/Lancaster, PA market.


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## hdtvfan0001

n3ntj said:


> Now that D10 and D12 are both in service, will we see any changes to D* plans regarding HD national or local markets not being serviced yet? I would assume prior announcements for new cities for HD locals and national HD channels were based upon on D10 or D12 being in service, but now that the D10 fix was successful, I would guess there is a lot of available bandwidth.
> 
> I'd still like to see the CW and PBS affiliates added for the Harrisburg/Lancaster, PA market.


There are several specific threads for that topic, available if you do a search under -* HD locals*.

Here's one of the better ones...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65321


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## adam1115

Wait, I haven't been here in awhile..

I thought D12 fell out of the sky, D10 broke down and was unrepairable, and all of the HD-DVR's blew up.

You mean, everything is actually fine...?


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## hdtvfan0001

adam1115 said:


> Wait, I haven't been here in awhile..
> 
> I thought D12 fell out of the sky, D10 broke down and was unrepairable, and all of the HD-DVR's blew up.
> 
> You mean, everything is actually fine...?


While there's a few that may have made it sound that way...

It's all good...in fact they managed to get D10 "ameliorated" to its full signal capacity. D12 has been fine from the get go.


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## ATARI

adam1115 said:


> Wait, I haven't been here in awhile..
> 
> I thought D12 fell out of the sky, D10 broke down and was unrepairable, and all of the HD-DVR's blew up.
> 
> You mean, everything is actually fine...?


You forgot to mention that D13 never even made it to the launchpad


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## P Smith

It's time to rename the thread to "*hdtvfan0001 *talking ..."


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## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> It's time to rename the thread to "*hdtvfan0001 *talking ..."


Take it someplace else.

No one smarts back about your cryptic posts......oops...


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## TBlazer07

P Smith said:


> - perhaps it's not bad, but got little degradation ? 10% is not that bad.


In less than 2 weeks?


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## P Smith

TBlazer07 said:


> In less than 2 weeks?


Now, you mentioned the time frame ... I would say yes.


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