# How much is a no-fee DVR worth?



## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

I don't want to pay a DVR fee, even $5/mo with AT100. But I started thinking about what I'm complaining about: $60/year.

Yes, it's a fee that lasts forever, or at least longer than the DVR, itself. But what if the DVR is discounted $60? $120? $200 or more?

I've kept my Dishplayer for 3.5 years, and now I'm ready to upgrade to something (yes, maybe a 921). So a $210 discount would offset 3.5 years of the 921's DVR fee (and selling the DP on ebay would offset the 921).

Aside from the psychology of paying forever (like we do with phone, internet, and, oh yeah, Dish), how much of a discount would make a DVR fee a wash for you? How many years of DVR fee do you think is a fair discount off the price of a new box?


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

I say that the reason I still have Dish is BECAUSE of the free DVR service. If I have to pay for DVR service with Dish and every one on the planet also charges a fee, there is no incentive for me to stay with Dish! Is there? I do not beleive in "cheaper upfront cost offset by a forever fee".

See ya
Tony


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## rtt2 (Jan 27, 2003)

Dish's Equipment is historically more expensive than the competition. Since DirecTV has independent vendors develop set tops the prices are lower due to competition. As a result the technology seems to be a tad ahead. So the lower upfront cost seems to be moot with DirecTV. The big incentive that used to be going for dish was no recurring fee. But now with a DVR fee why would one trade off superior DirecTV hardware & Tivo software for Dish's inferior offerings?


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

Let me ask the same question in a different way.

A couple of months ago, folks here were giddy about spending the rumored $999 for a new 921. If Dish tacked on an extra penny/month, it would be stupid & annoying, but not worth an uproar. If they were to charge $5/month and drop the price down to $399, they wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand.

So what's the discounted 921 price where $5/month would be tolerable for a year or four?

All of this assumes that you're reasonably satisfied with E* content, no name-based recording, no season's pass TiVO features, etc. I'm not looking for arguments why E* DVRs ought to be much better (as I think they should), I just want to know whether you think $5/mo is worth $60 today, $160, or $1600.


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## AppliedAggression (Aug 16, 2003)

Yeah, I'm new here and I find it funny how practically everyone that is complaining about DVR fees has an HDTV and wants the 921, not to mention they subscribe to America's Everything Pak or Top150. What is $5/month?! Seriously, you already spend so much on your entertainment. And it's Also quite annoying hearing people compare Dish's DVR fee to Direct's or Tivo in general, which is $10 and $13 respectively. Most DVR users will be paying $5, which isn't that bad when you've already spent thousands on your entertainment.


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

DirecTIVO is $5/mo, not $10. Only UTV is $10/mo. Regardless, it's not so much the money for the PVR fee itself, it's the fact that E* nickle and dimes you to death. $5 here... $5 there, oh and another $5 for your locals... and yet another $5 for each extra receiver (plus another $5 on top fo that if you have more than one PVR). It all adds up, and in the end, E* can be a crappy deal compared to the competition. 

However, if you have a 721 and all you want are the basic stations... E* is a killer deal. Better than cable or DTV. With a pay PVR like the 921 and/or something more than the basic package, E*'s advantage in price starts to drop off rapidly. Couple this with the fact that the E* PVRs are pathetic when compared to every other PVR on the market, it's laughable that E* wants to charge for feature poor, buggy software. I'm willing to put up with the crap E* foists off on us as quality software because the price is half that of DTV. But if they want to charge the same (or more in some cases) as DTV for this junk, they can go stick it... certain places. I'll switch back to cable if I absolutely have to. I'd rather stay with E* though, and since my 721 won't have a fee, until it dies, I'll probably be with E*. Who knows who the climate will have changed by then.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

The problem is that there is no promise that the rate won't go up for no good reason other than it can.

I do not beleive it when Dish says that they are going to charge less for receivers now because of this extra fee. I know that is what they want us to beleive, but I don't beleive it. I've had DVR receiver for close to 4 years now. I paid $200 for it. If I were paying a $5 a month DVR fee that's another $240. I plan to have this receiver until the day it bursts into flames!

Remember that the only reason for a fee is because the company can extract more money from your wallet in the long run!!!!

Dish has been selling DVR receivers for 4 years with NO DVR fees. Dish was outselling TiVo by a wide margin. You might as yourself, "why?" The reason is obvious! But it's too simple for a beancounter to see. People are willing to spend more on programming and equipment to avoid a perpetual fee for what is percieved to be a "fancy VCR". But that lure of tacking on a "because we can" fee was just too much for bean counters to pass up.

No matter how much it's explained to me, the instant I have to pay a DVR fee, I will no longer be a Dish Network subscriber. Dish will PERMENANTLY lose a subscriber and an advocate because of an unnecessary fee. I will probably end up paying a DVR fee anyway, but it will NEVER be to Dish. EVER!!!! Just a matter of principle.

See ya
Tony


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Dish's single-tuner PVRs, without a hard drive, isn't worth more than $99 IMHO. Mind you, the 50x/510 also has the UHF remote control, while the DirecTivo, at this time, doesn't. Also, the DirecTivos and the Dish DVR product lines do not have a encoding chip since the compression is performed at the uplink facility with equipment that costs a few grand each. And, if I'm reading the specifications correctly, the 921 will record OTA HD signals also which, by their nature, are digital.

What has everyone upset (myself included) is that there is a great difference between the sophistication of the software. The 5xx series was a timer based DVR, and a pretty good one at that. Just select the program from the guide. Much simpler than setting a VCR. Worth $5 per month. Maybe.

But, I look at the other side of the fence. That same $4.99 per month gives me access to software that is several times more sophisticated than Dish's. While it comes with a 40 GB hard drive, just wait a few months, pick up two 120GB hard drives, and upgrade the unit.

The mistake is that Dish was arrogant enough to think that existing customers would pick up a DishDVR at full price, then charge a monthly fee. Either you lease the PVR out, lock the customer into a contract, and charge a monthly fee, or the customer purchases the receiver outright and pays no monthly fee. But not both.

In addition, this fee would apply per receiver, not per account as is done with DirecTV. Oops.

This has upset me enough that I've got a DirecTV system sitting in the garage awaiting installation and activation.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

I need to make my position clear...

The PVR fee (even if the software reads your mind and extracts your favorite programs without you having to do nothing but think what you would like to see) is superfluous! I bought the equipment. Dish proved that when you have a PVR/DVR unit with no "because we can" fee attached, it will attract customers.

The ONLY reason Dish is going to charge for DVR is BECAUSE THEY CAN. As long as people follow like sheep and allow themselved to fleeced, thinks like this will continue to happen. "It's only $5" is what some people say....no...it's only $5 EVERY month for EACH unit for EVER!!!!

Even if I have to pay for DVR service with some one else, it will not be to Dish. Ever!

See ya
Tony


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

I have the same thoughts as Tony has, now I will no longer consider purchasing the 921. The thought of buying something only to have it add to your bill every month is going to keep me from buying it even though I am currently an AEP sub and would not face the charge.


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

TNGTony said:


> I need to make my position clear...
> 
> The PVR fee (even if the software reads your mind and extracts your favorite programs without you having to do nothing but think what you would like to see) is superfluous! I bought the equipment. Dish proved that when you have a PVR/DVR unit with no "because we can" fee attached, it will attract customers.
> 
> ...


Great!!! Go somewhere else already.

Ken


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

TNGTony: I find it interesting that my post is sandwiched between your two posts. I'm scratching my head because I'm going kinda "Huh?"

The only good thing is that maybe Dish and DirecTV will finally push the advantages of DVRs. They apparently have the resources to promotre DVRs that Tivo and Sonicblue doesn't. 

They could have had me spend $269 for a new receiver with 120GB hard drive with a single tuner. But, because of the fee, I'm in the process of transferring from Dish to DirecTV. My total system cost including shipping and installation: $226. Triple LNB, two standalones, and a PVR with two inputs, not one. Congratulations, Dish, you just churned one $70/month account.

Funny how things change in two years. Just over two years ago, I was so mad at AT&T broadband that I yanked the cable boxes and got Dish... even if it meant a almost month-long wait. The PVR fee for a DirecTivo was $9.95 was too high in my opinion. But, things change.

I have posted before a link to a Linux-based PVR that was constructed on Open Source. It is called MythTV. And, from the screen shots, it looked pretty good.


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## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

AppliedAggression said:


> Yeah, I'm new here and I find it funny how practically everyone that is complaining about DVR fees has an HDTV and wants the 921, not to mention they subscribe to America's Everything Pak or Top150. What is $5/month?!


I addressed this point a while back. First of all, it's $20/mo, not $5, if you have 2 receivers and don't subscribe to one of the more expensive packages. And my monthly fee was $26 (no longer a Dish customer). $20 on top of $26 is not small change, sorry. But I forget, I'm not the kind of customer Dish cares about, as one person so correctly noted. And there are a few hundred thousand others who will be only slightly less poorly treated than me.

x


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

Ken....PLUNK!

Won't see ya,
Tony


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Many people do not understand. If the second box fee was eliminated or reduced to like $1/box I would have 4 more boxes on the account even if I had to pay full price for them all. It is not the up front cost that bothers me so much it is the monthly fee. It is like you never own the equipment, but you are always renting it. If I had a choice to buy the 921 for $1250 and did not have to ever pay the fee (even though I sub to AEP), I would pay the extra $250 just to have it no strings attached.


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## Chris Freeland (Mar 24, 2002)

I beleive their are 2 things E* could do to reduce most peoples objection to this new monthly DVR fee. (1) Change to per-account rather then current plan of per-unit, even if E* has to charge a higher price up front for 2nd, 3rd etc DVR STB's on ones account. (2) Offer everyone a Life-time option for those willing to pay a higher fee up front or in the future.

Another more simple solution might be to keep per-unit pricing, however have 2 prices for all E*DVR's, a low upfront price for those willing to pay the monthly fee or sub to AEP or the option of paying a premium up-front or anytime in the future for each E*DVR on your account to do away with the monthly fee's. With this format, a sub if they chose to could get their first E*DVR for Free or a very low price and pay the monthly fee on that one unit and then in the future if they added additional E*DVR's to their account could pay the higher up-front price. E* could also offer discounts on the Life-time sub rate if one agree's to sub to at least AT100 or AEP for one or two years.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I think a lifetime DVR fee on the receivers are worth $100-$150 seeing how you save $60 per year. If the DVR fee was per account instead of per receiver then the lifetime service would be worth even less than that since you would not be saving as much having two DVR's on the account paying one DVR fee vs. having to pay a fee for both. 

That leads to another question, if you would be able to purchase the lifetime DVR functionality then would they do it per receiver or per account as well? Most have not thought about this and if you had to purchase that per receiver as well this would also add up and make many customers mad but there has to be a limit to this as you could not have another generation of DVR come out and still receiver free DVR service if they were thinking of lowering the price because they get the DVR fee but it seems like they are going to charge retail right now for the DVR product but give some incentives to new and existing customers.


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## johnsbin (Nov 14, 2002)

Actually, if I am now going to lease all my equipment and pay a fee, I don't want any up-front cost. It should work like a lease if they are going to lease it to me. I can pay up-front to lower my lease or just go with a lease-service-fee payment.


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

johnsbin said:


> Actually, if I am now going to lease all my equipment and pay a fee, I don't want any up-front cost. It should work like a lease if they are going to lease it to me. I can pay up-front to lower my lease or just go with a lease-service-fee payment.


Here's what I've learned so far:

Some people want to pay up front to avoid any recurring fees. Even if they have to pay more than the total of the recurring fees. 

Other people want to pay a higher recurring fee to avoid paying anything up front. Though they don't have any reasonable idea of how much the monthly fee would be for such an equipment lease. 

Nobody has mentioned the "capital reduction cost" of a car lease that's basically an up-front payment designed to lower monthly lease payments. :eek2: The idea of paying some now and some as you go is somehow unholy when a PVR is involved.

Ultimately, the market will decide what's fair. Each of us will stay with E*, jump to D* or cable, life will go on, TV will still only be TV, and we'll all be here to rave about a deal we got, rant about how 'they' screwed us, wax about how cool the next big thing's gonna be, and whine how 'they' sold us a bill of goods.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

But in this case it seems like you have to pay up front and each month BOTH. Thats where they stepped over the boundaries. A charge for each receiver too.


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

Jacob S said:


> But in this case it seems like you have to pay up front and each month BOTH. Thats where they stepped over the boundaries. A charge for each receiver too.


I'm not aware of announced receiver pricing as you've described it. For which receivers does someone have to pay full price up front along with the monthly $0/5/10 DVR fee?


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

Every new PVR after the 721 model...


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Yep, pay 1K for a 921 and to top it off a monthly fee PER BOX.

Pure greed if you ask me.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Yep, because they can.


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

I haven't seen an announced $1K price for the 921, or an announced "full price" for any post-721 receiver.

Speculate all you want, but until I find out how much a 921, 922, 923, or any other DVR is going to cost me up front, I (personally) won't know the impact of (for me) a $5/mo fee.

For me it's not a simple as "because they can", or "I'll never pay even a nickel a month". I already pay every month for Dish, and I paid up front for equipment, too. I'm interested in new equipment that will do new things and I know it's going to cost me something -- maybe once, maybe every month, probably both.

It's just money, and it's just TV. If it's too much money, or not enough TV, I won't do it. That's how I simplify it.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

The frst fee based DVR is the 510 with the same retail price within a few bucks as the fee less 508

921 announced price about 1K

Fee DVRs are pure greed.


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

I saw an ad slick that said the up-front fee for the 510/301 combo is ZERO. "the same retail price within a few bucks as the fee less 508" appears to be a guess about the 510's cost by itself for a current sub.

"921 announced price about 1K" isn't an announced price for either current or new subs -- it's what's rumored to be the 921's price, even if Charlie & Jim are the sources of the rumor.

When I see an announced price in a press release, on the Dish site, or even here, I'll consider it. In the meantime, I'll try not to knee-jerk some absolute response to rumors and guesses.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Yeah, prices are for new subs but for those that want a second one or for those existing subscribers they have to pay full price plus the DVR fee.


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## raj2001 (Nov 2, 2002)

I look at it this way.


I will be upgrading my equipment in the future anyway, so why pay full price up front when I can pay a small price, pay the monthly fee and then buy a new PVR receiver for cheap when it's released?


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Oh when UPGRADING you will pay FULL PRICE PLUS FEE

Thats how it is 510 about $300 foi existing subs PLUS FEE.....


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

Jacob S said:


> Yeah, prices are for new subs but for those that want a second one or for those existing subscribers they have to pay full price plus the DVR fee.





Bob Haller said:


> Oh when UPGRADING you will pay FULL PRICE PLUS FEE
> Thats how it is 510 about $300 foi existing subs PLUS FEE.....


Would you be so kind as to tell me where I might find "full price", "about $300", or something more specific quoted as the 510's price for a current sub? You may be right, but it sounds like there's a lot of proof by vigorous assertion going on in this thread.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Dish Network's emails to Scott on this board indicating that there will be the DVR fee and the same price on the 510 as the 508.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Chat announced the 510 price for existing subs is about the same as the 508 without fee.

Now unless once they exhaust the inventory of non pvr fee receivers they literally give them away long term subs are screwed.

The 921s price of $999 was released just two weeks before the DVR fee info, and the fee definetely applies.

I support getting more DVRs out there but screwing your existing sub base isnt the way to do it espically when the product is second rate at best.


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

Jacob S said:


> Dish Network's emails to Scott...


Another shrewd move on Charlie's part: Dish making public announcements via emails to Scott.



Bob Haller said:


> Chat announced the 510 price for existing subs is about the same as the 508 without fee.


There you have it in black and white. It'll cost me exactly about the same as something else.

Jane, stop this crazy thread.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Charlie just hasn't figured out that his buggy software isn't worth a centavo per month. I gladly pay Microsoft through, for the UTV because Dishplayer 2.0 *works*.

How tragic that Echostar's much-vaunted upgrade capacity has had to be wasted on making the bloody boxes work they way they should have when they were first shipped, rather than using it for the addition of new features.

At the time of the aborted merger, I was one of the cheerleaders, thinking that a combined company would have been in a much stronger position to take on Big Cable. Now, I see the error of my ways, that Charlie would have starved the combined company of the R&D necessary to properly compete.

And don't talk to me about SuperDish, the 921, or anything else until they're in consumers' homes...and are working *properly*. This former owner of a 3000, a 4000, a 3800 and three(!) Dishplayers is just tired of Dishnetwork promises that are broken time and time again. At this point, does anyone even remember Starband, the combined DVD player/receiver, or the 5000 HD converter that no longer receives all of Dish's HDTV?

Apologies for the rant, folks. But had I still been a DishNetwork subscriber (I dropped it for UTV and DirecTV last year), I would at this moment be screaming as I threw the receivers through the nearest window. Yes, I would have much rather given my money to a gutsy entrepreneur than General Motors, but all I wanted to do was watch TV, *not* be a continual. unpaid, beta tester.

I really pity those of you who have stuck with Dish all this time, through the continual software upgrades that may or may not have worked, through the meaningless Charlie Chats, through the endless calls to CSRs whose only advice is to "unplug your receiver and remove your access card." If you're enjoying your service, great. I wish I could be there with you. But I think you'll find that, as with the guy who keep hitting himself on the head, it really does feel so good when you stop.


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## jrbdmb (Sep 5, 2002)

StevenZ said:


> Another shrewd move on Charlie's part: Dish making public announcements via emails to Scott.
> 
> There you have it in black and white. It'll cost me exactly about the same as something else.
> 
> Jane, stop this crazy thread.


Read the thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=17631&highlight=Dish+DVR+upgrade. It details the new offer for the 510. Dish Network's website will detail an existing offer for the 508 that is exactly the same ($199, 1 year commit to AT100, CC auto-pay).

Which you could have found out very easily for yourself instead of making useless comments. :barf:


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

:listenup:


jrbdmb said:


> Read the thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=17631&highlight=Dish+DVR+upgrade. It details the new offer for the 510.
> 
> Which you could have found out very easily for yourself instead of making useless comments.


Thanks for the URL. Sadly, the promo offer wasn't what I was looking for. You missed the point, but thanks for playing.

The dishnetwork site has now posted a $300 stand-alone price for a 510, with a $100 discount through the promo. That's worth 20 months of $5 DVR fees.

These are the questions that, 30+ posts later, nobody has yet addressed: 
1. Is a $100 discount from full price a) more than enough, b) not enough, or c) just right, to offset a $5/month DVR fee. 
2. If you don't think it's just right, how much of a discount do you think is fair?


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Here is how I figure it, this has to be in Dish's favor because they would not have decided to do this if it was not in their favor, so they must have done a bit of planning on this fee to determine how to go about this so that it goes their way. If someone could save enough money on the hardware to make up for the DVR fee over 2-3 years then it would not be so bad since some do upgrade their hardware anyways. The bad part is that it would lower the going price of the DVR's that have a fee.


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## jrbdmb (Sep 5, 2002)

StevenZ said:


> These are the questions that, 30+ posts later, nobody has yet addressed:
> 1. Is a $100 discount from full price a) more than enough, b) not enough, or c) just right, to offset a $5/month DVR fee.
> 2. If you don't think it's just right, how much of a discount do you think is fair?


I would say not enough, since Dish Network was happy to sell me a 508 in early August with a $100 discount from full price and no monthly fee.

What's fair? The answer is going to vary wildly from user to user - but I think that any price over $150 for existing customers puts E* at a disadvantage to D*. (D* exisitng customers can get a PVR through them for $199 or $149. It only has 35 hours recording, but it is a dual tuner unit).


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

What $100 discount? For existing customers the upgrade deal to the 510 is the exact same price: $199!!! There is no savings. They are standing by their claim that the software improvements and extra hard drive space are worth spending $5/month(what most people will spend, as I do agree that why would you get a 510 if you only have AT50). I don't buy that. I'm sure the improvements are minor and not nearly worth $5/month. This is another outrage for existing customers.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I recall hearing on the last Charlie Chat that there were going to be some improvements in the 510 DVR software, if I am not mistaken. I guess it depends on how you interpret what is said in what you get out of it because what they say is one thing, but what they mean may be something else.


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