# Received new "Customer Agreement" in mail today...can I cancel w/o ETF?



## mva5580 (Jan 8, 2008)

So today in the mail I received a new "Customer Agreement" from Directv, and I notice one of the first sentences on it is "If you do not accept these terms, please notify us immediately and we will cancel your order of service." 

So since the terms have changed from what I originally signed up for, does that mean I can call up and cancel w/o having to pay the early termination fee? I've been looking to get out of DTV for months now and was really hoping some possibility could exist of getting out of that fee. Could this be it?


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

No.


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## mva5580 (Jan 8, 2008)

So the Customer Agreement essentially means nothing then? It could say something along the lines of "We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, but we're still getting your money?" 

Awesome. This will be the last time I subscribe to them, or any TV service, that's for sure. Can't wait to see these companies crash and burn as online takes off more and more.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

mva5580 said:


> So the Customer Agreement essentially means nothing then? It could say something along the lines of "We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, but we're still getting your money?"


Doesn't mean that at all, but I think you knew that. Just came in to *****, eh?


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Without reading both agreements, my guess would be they would cancel your service under the terms of the old customer agreement, the one you signed, which would mean you'd have to pay the early termination fee.

So either you cancel under the old agreement and pay for early termination or you accept the new agreement and pay for early termination.

See, you do have a choice.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

mva5580 said:


> So the Customer Agreement essentially means nothing then? It could say something along the lines of "We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, but we're still getting your money?"
> 
> Awesome. This will be the last time I subscribe to them, or any TV service, that's for sure. *Can't wait to see these companies crash and burn as online takes off more and more*.


Online TV will not be free (or cheap) forever.


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## bixler (Oct 14, 2008)

Carl Spock said:


> Without reading both agreements, my guess would be they would cancel your service under the terms of the old customer agreement, the one you signed, which would mean you'd have to pay the early termination fee.
> 
> So either you cancel under the old agreement and pay for early termination or you accept the new agreement and pay for early termination.
> 
> See, you do have a choice.


Bingo


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## bixler (Oct 14, 2008)

mva5580 said:


> So the Customer Agreement essentially means nothing then? It could say something along the lines of "We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, but we're still getting your money?"
> 
> Awesome. This will be the last time I subscribe to them, or any TV service, that's for sure. Can't wait to see these companies crash and burn as online takes off more and more.


If you feel this way then why did you CHOOSE to sign up for a 24 month contract to begin with?


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

mva5580 said:


> Can't wait to see these companies crash and burn as online takes off more and more.


So you'd rather make multiple monthy payments to multiple online programming providers? I don't enjoy writing checks _that_ much. :nono2:


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

I do see where he's coming from though, it's happened in the cell phone world that when they changed the terms, you could cancel without an ETF while under contract.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

dpeters11 said:


> I do see where he's coming from though, it's happened in the cell phone world that when they changed the terms, you could cancel without an ETF while under contract.


Depends on the change. By definition it has to be a "material change", which usually means something significant.

In the cell phone world, you lock into a price for the length of your contract. If they change that, you can usually get out. At D* you're not locking into a specific price, unless you're a new customer and you have a certain price for the first 12 months. If they changed that (raised the price for new customers that were locked in for 12 months), those effected could get out.

They're not doing that (or anything else significant).


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

mva5580 said:


> So today in the mail I received a new "Customer Agreement" from Directv, and I notice one of the first sentences on it is "If you do not accept these terms, please notify us immediately and we will cancel your order of service."
> 
> So since the terms have changed from what I originally signed up for, does that mean I can call up and cancel w/o having to pay the early termination fee? I've been looking to get out of DTV for months now and was really hoping some possibility could exist of getting out of that fee. Could this be it?


I doubt it, but why not call and ask? The hold times on calls to DirecTV are much shorter than they used to be.


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## robl45 (Aug 5, 2004)

Carl Spock said:


> Without reading both agreements, my guess would be they would cancel your service under the terms of the old customer agreement, the one you signed, which would mean you'd have to pay the early termination fee.
> 
> So either you cancel under the old agreement and pay for early termination or you accept the new agreement and pay for early termination.
> 
> See, you do have a choice.


not to start an argument, but what you said really makes no sense. I would agree with the OP, if he doens't agree with the new terms, they should have to let him out, at the very least, continue him on the old terms.

why should he be required to pay a termination fee if he doesn't agree with the new terms? that just amounts to coercion.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

You're going to make me read the damn agreement, aren't you? 

From the current agreement, in effect as of 4/24/10 (the bold highlighting is mine):



> 4. *CHANGES IN CONTRACT TERMS
> We reserve the right to change the terms and conditions on which we offer Service.* If we make any such changes, we will send you a copy of your new Customer Agreement containing its effective date. You always have the right to cancel your Service, in whole or in part, at any time, and you may do so if you do not accept any such changed terms or conditions. See Sections 5(b), (d) and (e) below. If you elect not to cancel your Service after receiving a new Customer Agreement, your continued receipt of Service constitutes acceptance of the changed terms and conditions. *If you notify us that you do not accept such terms and conditions, then we may cancel your Service as provided in Section 5,* as we cannot offer Service to different customers on different terms, among other reasons.


From Section 5:



> (c) *Our Cancellation.* We may cancel your Service at any time if you fail to pay amounts owing to us when due, subject to any grace periods, breach any other material provision of this Agreement, or act abusively toward our staff. In such case, you will still be responsible for payment of all outstanding balances accrued through that effective date, including the deactivation fee described in Section 2. In addition, *we may cancel your Service if you elect not to accept any changed terms described to you, as provided in Section 4*.


And if you look further in Section 5, to part (e), you will see that when they cancel your agreement, they can charge you for unreturned equipment and have you pay cancellation fees, and that those fees can be charged on a credit card that they already have on file.



> (e) *Payment Upon Cancellation.* You acknowledge that you have provided your credit or debit card account information to us. You understand that you will incur fees and charges as a result of your receipt and use of Service and/or Receiving Equipment, and *may incur early cancellation fees and/or equipment non-return fees *(as specified in any lease, programming or other service commitment agreement you entered into in connection with obtaining Receiving Equipment). *By giving us your credit or debit card account information, you authorize us to apply this method of payment, in accordance with applicable law, to satisfy any and all amounts due upon cancellation. *You further acknowledge that you are required to maintain current credit or debit card information with us and agree to notify us whenever there is a change in such information, such as a change in the card number or the expiration date.


So you see, *robl45*, you've already agreed to these charges when you signed your lease. It has nothing to do if you cancel them or they cancel you. It's all the same. When you first signed up, you agreed to take it up the (aaa-OOOUU-gaaah), to be blunt about it, if DirecTV decides to cancel your account.

It may not be fair but it's the contract.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

...and various courts have been disinclined to enforce (read they will break the contract in the court), contracts that are blatantly open ended and amount in practical terms, to coercion. 

If taken to court, for a "material" change, D* would lose, if they attempted to collect an ETF. State Attorneys General live for such cases.

This clearly, is not one of them, but the simplistic idea that a contract is a contract is clearly not the case. Some contracts are not enforceable and piggy backing contracts which permit "material" changes to be made without the penalty free consent of the consumer are frowned upon. 

Basically, if the terms of the contract are materially altered and a financial penalty is assigned for not agreeing to the new terms, the chances of it standing up in court are quite low. While individuals may not have the means to take D* to court, class actions are not that hard to develop, especially with a willing State Attorney General.

As has been stated, the recent changes certainly do not appear to be "material", so there isn't an issue at this time. To extrapolate this to "you signed a contract" that grants perpetual rights to alter conditions willy nilly, and encumber you financially is ....well...silly...and many such "contracts" have been voided by the courts in the past.

The same holds true for releases of information, using the exact same principle. Been there, done that.


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## kcaudiofx (Dec 27, 2009)

mva5580 said:


> So the Customer Agreement essentially means nothing then? It could say something along the lines of "We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, but we're still getting your money?"
> 
> Awesome. This will be the last time I subscribe to them, or any TV service, that's for sure. Can't wait to see these companies crash and burn as online takes off more and more.


Good luck on that one, Internet TV will be awhile before it gets anywhere close to being real popular, and when/IF that time comes, be expecting to pay..


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## kcaudiofx (Dec 27, 2009)

What "terms" could of changed to make you so upset? The only thing I recall changing was in Feb 2011 of a $1.00 increase on lease fees and $2.00 raise in every package.. so assuming you have 4 tv's your bill went up a whole $5.00 a month. I know times are tough for a lot of people, but come on, really? $5? If its that bad, then remove one of your TV's and end up saving $1.00


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

"kcaudiofx" said:


> What "terms" could of changed to make you so upset?


I was trying to think about this one, I got something the other day as well, but it was an updated privacy policy. I'm not actually sure it's different, I think they send it out on occasion as a refresher. I wonder if that's what the op got.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> Depends on the change. By definition it has to be a "material change", which usually means something significant.
> 
> In the cell phone world, you lock into a price for the length of your contract. If they change that, you can usually get out. At D* you're not locking into a specific price, unless you're a new customer and you have a certain price for the first 12 months. If they changed that (raised the price for new customers that were locked in for 12 months), those effected could get out.
> 
> They're not doing that (or anything else significant).


Simply changing the amount of very small fees is enough in the cell phone world to make it a material change.


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## cariera (Oct 27, 2006)

mva5580 said:


> So since the terms have changed from what I originally signed up for


Ok, I'll bite, what terms have changed (and I hope you don't say price)?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

raott said:


> Simply changing the amount of very small fees is enough in the cell phone world to make it a material change.


As I stated earlier, that's different.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

Some people need to re-read the OP's message... (this is not directed to the post directly above mine):


mva5580 said:


> So since the terms have changed from what I originally signed up for, does that mean I can call up and cancel w/o having to pay the early termination fee? *I've been looking to get out of DTV for months now and was really hoping some possibility could exist of getting out of that fee.* Could this be it?


The OP is not complaining about a change in the terms of service. Instead, he was hoping that he could use the change in TOS as a loophole to get out of paying a termination fee, as he's been wanting to leave DIRECTV for a while. So he couldn't care less how the terms change, he just wants to not pay to leave while he's still under contract.

IMHO, the OP knew what he signed up for and either has to bite the bullet and pay the termination fee or ride it out until the contract ends. The only good news is that I think DIRECTV now pro-rates the termination fee, so it decreases the closer you are to the end of the contract period. The OP should do a cost analysis to see if it's cheaper to pay the termination fee or to ride it out and continue to make monthly payments, and do whatever is cheaper.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

"DarkSkies" said:


> The only good news is that I think DIRECTV now pro-rates the termination fee, so it decreases the closer you are to the end of the contract period. The OP should do a cost analysis to see if it's cheaper to pay the termination fee or to ride it out and continue to make monthly payments, and do whatever is cheaper.


DirecTV has prorated the ETF for as long as I can remember. It works out to $20 per month left on the subscriber's commitment.

- Merg

Sent from my iPod touch using DBSTalk


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

mva5580 said:


> So the Customer Agreement essentially means nothing then? It could say something along the lines of "We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, but we're still getting your money?"
> 
> Awesome. This will be the last time I subscribe to them, or any TV service, that's for sure. Can't wait to see these companies crash and burn as online takes off more and more.


diubt internet tv will amount to anything

ATT DSL - monthly cap of 150 GB
ATT Uverse - monthly cap of 250 GB
Charter Communications Internet - 15MB or slower - 100 GB, 15-25 MB - 250 GB, 60 MB - 500GB cap

Unles you plan on using your internet for nothing but online viewing then it might be an alternative


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

wingrider01 said:


> diubt internet tv will amount to anything
> 
> ATT DSL - monthly cap of 150 GB
> ATT Uverse - monthly cap of 250 GB
> ...


You can add Comcast at 250GB to your list. And since you're relying on a TV provider for internet access, you can be sure that they will do everything they can to limit their customers' abilities to switch to an internet only TV option.

Internet TV as a free/cheap TV option is not going to be a reality anytime in the near future.


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## AttiTech (Feb 21, 2011)

mva5580 said:


> So the Customer Agreement essentially means nothing then? It could say something along the lines of "We can do whatever we want, whenever we want, but we're still getting your money?"


Wait, you're customer agreement doesn't say that? Weird.


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## AttiTech (Feb 21, 2011)

I can't understand the practical use of having Internet TV. If that's all you have, and you're internet goes out, you just lost 2 different services you're paying for. Seems kind of pointless really. I mean, we get some bad storms here in North Florida, but I've never lost my sat signal. If I did though, I would still have my cable internet to watch my shows on Hulu, or because of subscribing to that internet service, I can just hook up the extra cable they left for me and get the basic channels that came with my internet package.


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

I can see the Op's point,there should be no price increase wile on a commitment it is totally one way they got you trapped and theirs no way out without paying a ETF. 

I feel a lot of people including myself will smarting up and finally realize that there is tv watching after Directv.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Verizon is currently offering a FiOS option with a two-year no-price increase guaranteed along with for a two-year commitment. There's also an initial 30-day option to drop the service if you are not happy with it.

That sounds more reasonable than DirecTV's approach.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

mva5580 said:


> So today in the mail I received a new "Customer Agreement" from Directv, and I notice one of the first sentences on it is "If you do not accept these terms, please notify us immediately and we will cancel your order of service."


My notice is at home, and I am at work, but if I'm not mistaken the next line stated something indicating that you would be subject to the terms of cancellation and directed you to that section.

In other words, they've got that ground covered and no, you can't cancel free under the new terms either.


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## tranceFusion (Aug 23, 2010)

JLucPicard said:


> My notice is at home, and I am at work, but if I'm not mistaken the next line stated something indicating that you would be subject to the terms of cancellation and directed you to that section.
> 
> In other words, they've got that ground covered and no, you can't cancel free under the new terms either.


What exactly IS the change in terms?


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## susanandmark (Feb 15, 2007)

hasan said:


> ...and various courts have been disinclined to enforce (read they will break the contract in the court), contracts that are blatantly open ended and amount in practical terms, to coercion.
> 
> If taken to court, for a "material" change, D* would lose, if they attempted to collect an ETF. State Attorneys General live for such cases.
> 
> ...


+1 to all of the above. I have a strong suspicion, backed by facts and similar scenarios with other companies (as illustrated above), that DirecTV's policy would not stand up under the scrutiny of a court of law.

That being said, I am under no illusion that a company like DirecTV does NOT have a top notch legal team in place to tell them the risks vs rewards of their current behavior and, clearly, they have sussed out that their present behavior, as long as it goes legally unchallenged, is of sufficient financial gain to the company to keep using it.

Sure, some would use a new agreement as a "loophole" to get out of a contract. (But anyone who thinks DirecTV, or any company, wouldn't use every contractual loophole possible to make money for themselves is naive to the extreme.) But those same people may, eventually, return as customers WITHOUT a grudge against a company that made them stay in a situation they were unhappy for whatever reason. In my mind, it's a win-win for DirecTV. They, apparently, disagree.

But, heck, at least they're actually sending out customer agreements. As a customer since 1999, when there was no contract period or ETF, or anything of the sort, this is the first in hand statement I've ever received about any change in terms that DirecTV says I am subject to.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

susanandmark said:


> +1 to all of the above. I have a strong suspicion, backed by facts and similar scenarios with other companies (as illustrated above), that DirecTV's policy would not stand up under the scrutiny of a court of law.
> 
> That being said, I am under no illusion that a company like DirecTV does NOT have a top notch legal team in place to tell them the risks vs rewards of their current behavior and, clearly, they have sussed out that their present behavior, as long as it goes legally unchallenged, is of sufficient financial gain to the company to keep using it.
> 
> ...


What is the latest reason for your commitment being extended?


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## MattScahum (Oct 27, 2010)

I got the same letter in the mail, and I work for D*. I read the attached letter as well, which basically said that they were sending out a copy of the customer agreement to all subs as a yearly thing. Aside from the extra cost of the receivers for each room, looking at the one I got when I signed up it is identical.
So to put it mildly, no you can't cancel without an ETF because the terms that you agreed to are not broken.


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## bjdotson (Feb 20, 2007)

Not to quibble (too much) but it would be an interesting court case I think, because the rules state that if YOU do no agree to the new Terms, THEY can cancel. (note that you can't cancel them, but they can cancel you). In such a case if THEY are canceling, how can they charge You for canceling. The only thing protecting them is, who is going to pay a $1000 in lawyer fees to get out of a $160 ETF.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

They can cancel you if you ask to be canceled, refusing to accept the agreement. If you do nothing then they do nothing.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

MattScahum said:


> I got the same letter in the mail, and I work for D*. I read the attached letter as well, which basically said that they were sending out a copy of the customer agreement to all subs as a yearly thing. Aside from the extra cost of the receivers for each room, looking at the one I got when I signed up it is identical.
> So to put it mildly, no you can't cancel without an ETF because the terms that you agreed to are not broken.


It's not identicle there are changes in there. The main thing is if people really care about those changes.

So far the nuts and bolts that I see in there are as follows:


No more warranty at all for any equipment.
Must have a base package to have any add on services, movie channels/sports packages/locals.
Deposit information
Approval for cell phone contact including collection calls
Credit card billing
Process of arbitration and filing suits
Just an FYI pricing is not a term of service it's the cost of a service and therefor not included in the ToS.


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## MattScahum (Oct 27, 2010)

Shades228 said:


> It's not identicle there are changes in there. The main thing is if people really care about those changes.
> 
> So far the nuts and bolts that I see in there are as follows:
> 
> ...


good point. Looking further at mine you are spot on. As you said though, are the things that have been changed/modified/updated things that people are talking about. Price is all I really see on here and as you said, not a ToS thing.


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