# DVR on a UPS - are and what are you using ?



## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Anybody ?

I'd prefer one that doesn't do funky things to video output....


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## allargon (May 3, 2007)

UPS? As in uninterruptible power supply? What does that have to do with the video output?


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

I have two - one for each. One is 750, the other is 500MA.....


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Got a brand name ?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

allargon said:


> UPS? As in uninterruptible power supply? What does that have to do with the video output?


Let's just say I've seen some funky things with my distribution system when I've had AV equipment on an UPS before...


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## boy654 (Dec 21, 2006)

scooper said:


> Let's just say I've seen some funky things with my distribution system when I've had AV equipment on an UPS before...


can you describe what it was? running on AC or battery? I have my video stuff (DVR, VCR, DVD) on a APC UPS, TV and receiver on the filtered outputs. Only problem I had was a 721 needed a factory reset after an extended outage that ran the UPS all the way down.


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## Chuck584 (Apr 17, 2007)

scooper said:


> Anybody ?
> 
> I'd prefer one that doesn't do funky things to video output....


What do you expect from the UPS?

Holding up power for brief (seconds) flucuations?

Supplying power for minutes or hours during a full scale outage?

Here in this South Hills suburb of Pittsburgh our neighborhood was moved from a reliable portion of the grid to the tail end of another grid. Every year we experience prolonged outages, many lasting hours. When our power goes out for more than a few seconds, I want at least two hours of UPS power for my DVRs.

Thus each of my DVRs have their own dedicated UPS. And one each for the primary TVs.

I've been using CyberPower AVR series UPS for all my DVRs for more than 5 years.

I use an 825AVR with my HR20. It gives more than 3 hours of backup.

I use two 625AVRs, one with my Philips DSR704 and one with my Samsung SIR4120R. Each lasts more than two hours.

I use Cyberpower "SL" models (the 520) for the TVs.

I use APC models on my computers. They have short backup but the UPS software works better with computers (Mac OSX, Windows XP & Vista).

No UPS should have any effect on the video output.

The antenna connectors on some UPS systems are for basic cable or OTA antennas. They are *NOT* for use with broadband cable or satellite TV systems.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

boy654 said:


> can you describe what it was? running on AC or battery? I have my video stuff (DVR, VCR, DVD) on a APC UPS, TV and receiver on the filtered outputs. Only problem I had was a 721 needed a factory reset after an extended outage that ran the UPS all the way down.


It was some funny lines on the rf outputs of my ChannelPlus 3025 multiroom distribution system when the UPS was on battery.

Mostly what I'm looking for is to ride out some storm induced powerline flickers / maybe 1-2 hours outage on my Dish 625. I got the house wired, but it depends on this MRDD for RF distribution. I also want to power the preamp for my UHF antenna over the same time, and maybe power a small (14 inch) TV for news / information(TV to be used in short bursts).

I was thinking an UPS in the 1000 VA class would be adequate for the defined needs.


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## boy654 (Dec 21, 2006)

battery regenerated ac is going to be pretty spikey, the power supply of the Channel Plus may be passing that interference on the video signal. A good power supply will reject most or all of it. If you want clean ac, get a good generator.


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

I have Connext and APC...I prefer APC.


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## benn5325 (Mar 16, 2004)

APC J10 in the basement & APC J15 in the family room.


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## aegrotatio (Mar 27, 2006)

All of the UPS devices will cause funky interference patterns on the RF modulator output. It's just the nature of how they work.
Some are better than others, though.
I have all kinds of different models of APC and some are not noticeable, but others are really bad.

My suggestion is that you seek a UPS that has an active power conditioner.
I cannot tell you which ones will work properly--I have used some APC Smart-UPS which are active UPS devices and some of them make the signal quality worse than the cheaper Back-UPS do.

The real solution is to have a backup generator that turns on within 2 minutes of a power outage. Of course if you don't get a good generator with a high-quality stator you're going to have different signal quality issues with your RF modulator. I personally use a Generac Home Guardian brand unit and the picture is solid. We watched satellite TV for the week-long Hurricane Isabel power outage in our area.

Have you considered digital signal distribution using MPEG, H.263 or something similar?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I put a "Cyberpower" 425 VA unit that I got from TigerDIrect store this afternoon. Tried it out by unplugging it from the wall with both the DVR and the distribution system - no interefernce lines  

And digital is not an option - these are for TVs.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

aegrotatio said:


> All of the UPS devices will cause funky interference patterns on the RF modulator output. It's just the nature of how they work.
> Some are better than others, though.


With respect, not true. I do agree that the more you spend the better the quality of the power (IF you spend wisely, there is some expensive yet underwhelming stuff out there).

There are "on-line" UPS units that supply true sine wave AC and are VERY "quiet". Cheap UPS units generally produce square wave AC through their inverters and that *is* noisy power. You do get what you pay for in UPS inits.

A little light reading... http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/funcOutput-c.html

They, however, are not $50 and never found at the discount whorehouses.

Google "sine wave UPS". They are not outragously expensive unless you want to cover the entire house at the power drop


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## ratoren (Dec 28, 2005)

I tried it, but would get only sound - no picture at all on my 721. Plugged the 721 into the wall, and the picture was restored. So, I am spending $6/month on the replacement plan instead. Oh well


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

ratoren said:


> I tried it, but would get only sound - no picture at all on my 721. Plugged the 721 into the wall, and the picture was restored. So, I am spending $6/month on the replacement plan instead. Oh well


Simply plugging the AC power cord of a 721 into a UPS should not effect video at all so, I'd like to know more...

I had two 721s plugged into two APC 350 el cheapo UPS units for four years and they worked perfectly. Since I was using a DishPro Quad on the Dish 500 I had to upgrade to a coax surge-spike protector that had enough bandwidth for DishPro (higher than 2150GHz IIRC). Using a lower bandwidth coax surge-spike protector I lost video.

Are your RG6 coax cables running directly into the 721 or going through a coax surge-spike protector?


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## n4hhe (Mar 29, 2007)

PVR-501 and APC Back-UPS CS350.

A local independent battery store had a pallet of used little UPS's off lease. His offer was, "Buy a new battery from me and I'll throw the matching UPS in for free." He wanted extra for the larger UPS's.

So I snagged both CS350's he had as I was there to buy a new battery for my old CS350 as well.

What do I expect of it? Not much. The PVR-501 takes a couple of minutes to resync with the satellites on momentary power outage. With the UPS we skip that additional delay. And for $18 wouldn't you?


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## Frostwolf (May 10, 2006)

n4hhe said:


> PVR-501 and APC Back-UPS CS350. ---snip---The PVR-501 takes a couple of minutes to resync with the satellites on momentary power outage. With the UPS we skip that additional delay. And for $18 wouldn't you?


Yes I would. I have scratch that had my 508s on ups's , sweet thing because power blinks here every day almost, and I never miss a show when the powers off - Sweet

anyways, yes I would put a ups on it, it is a simple computer.

As for messing with the video, bad or no ground on your plug outlet, bad ground in the fuse box. RF noise from flourscent bulbs, even those energy saving bulbs. And the most likely defective ups?? AC leaking on Caps? There was a bad batch of caps from china or korea not to long ago.

But check the gorunding, or have someone check it. Don't get electocuted:nono2:

good luck


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

Frostwolf said:


> YAs for messing with the video, bad or no ground on your plug outlet, bad ground in the fuse box. RF noise from flourscent bulbs, even those energy saving bulbs. And the most likely defective ups?? AC leaking on Caps? There was a bad batch of caps from china or korea not to long ago.
> 
> But check the grounding, or have someone check it. Don't get electocuted:nono2:


That's a real head scratcher... never seen "bad grounding' lose video on a DVR. In fact, I lived in a house with 50's "old time" 2 wire AC (no ground at all) and had video.

There is something unique at ratoren's house or installation cauing the lost video problem when plugged into whatever UPS he tried.


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## Frostwolf (May 10, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> That's a real head scratcher... never seen "bad grounding' lose video on a DVR. In fact, I lived in a house with 50's "old time" 2 wire AC (no ground at all) and had video.
> 
> There is something unique at ratoren's house or installation cauing the lost video problem when plugged into whatever UPS he tried.


Google Ground loops and such, I've seen bad grounds cause some really wacky things. Tv's turn themselves off, copiers lose track of what copy its on, blow varisitors in microwaves. Infact I have ground loop problem going on now, just to lazy to track it down. I know my house wiring is really bad even though its only 30yrs old, its screwy.

Anyways, Some good reading here http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/index.html
"Ground loops commonly cause humming noise to audio signals and interference bars to picture" and "Some articles claim that wiring and grounding problems account for up to 80 percent of all power quality related problems related with sensitive electronic equipments like audio/video systems."

dunno if 80% is acurate, but its worth a look. THen you have appliances in the house causing noise on the electrical and can interfere with x10 communcations and such. also here http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/tvfaq/tvpwglvhb.htm

I've also attached a picture form a troubleshooting manual I have,

To read it, top peft picture is redundant, showing which connector it what, top right is testing a voltage problem on the ground, no voaltage should be there max is .5 v, the bottom one shows what it should have for voltage 108-132v, I had a copier that forgot what options it had, a voltage line monitor that printed out a spike of 180v to 70v proved the copier was not the problem, funny thign the electric company denied the probelm too, but never had to go back again after fighting that one for 2 months.

Anyways, got to go. good luck


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

Frostwolf said:


> Google Ground loops and such, I've seen bad grounds cause some really wacky things. Tv's turn themselves off, copiers lose track of what copy its on, blow varisitors in microwaves. Infact I have ground loop problem going on now, just to lazy to track it down. I know my house wiring is really bad even though its only 30yrs old, its screwy.
> 
> Anyways, Some good reading here http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/index.html
> "Ground loops commonly cause humming noise to audio signals and interference bars to picture" and "Some articles claim that wiring and grounding problems account for up to 80 percent of all power quality related problems related with sensitive electronic equipments like audio/video systems."
> ...


I'm well versed and have too much experience with ground loops, faulty grounds, and such. Ground loops gift many with the infamous/famous 60 cycle hum. Ground loops introduce spurious signals and noises of great variety both audio and video. Bad ground do all sorts of other things and improper or failing coax terminations turn an innocent length of RG6 into a nifty antenna to introduce RF hash into the signal.

All this has absolutely nothing to do with ratoren's statment "I tried it, but would get only sound - no picture at all on my 721. Plugged the 721 into the wall, and the picture was restored" which I was questioning and asked for more details.

A Dish 721 that is working properly connected to an AC line and then loses video when the power cord is removed from the wall and plugged into an unknown UPS is interesting to me in many ways.

I simply wanted to know more details on the poster's installation, wiring, and UPS unit because, at face value, ratoren's statement is hard for me to accept when I lived with no ground on two 721s and have seen many DVRs r\unning on three wire (grounded) and two wire (not grounded) line outlets with no loss of video and I know that at one point dish made available an accessory pigtail for 721s that lifted the ground to resolve a different problem.

I suspect that there is more to ratoren's post than there was in the post and he might not even know he left it out.


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## Frostwolf (May 10, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> I'm well versed and have too much experience with ground loops, faulty grounds, and such. Ground loops gift many with the infamous/famous 60 cycle hum. Ground loops introduce spurious signals and noises of great variety both audio and video. Bad ground do all sorts of other things and improper or failing coax terminations turn an innocent length of RG6 into a nifty antenna to introduce RF hash into the signal.
> 
> All this has absolutely nothing to do with ratoren's statment "I tried it, but would get only sound - no picture at all on my 721. Plugged the 721 into the wall, and the picture was restored" which I was questioning and asked for more details.
> 
> ...


Ok, sorry Missed something here, Scooper was the one with the problem, and said he had lines on the picture in response #8 not ratoren. I did miss that he solved it in #13 "-no interference lines). He fixed it with a new ups, wich I said was the most likely problem.

Sorry, I'll keep my mouth shut, I missed it because I was tired. But I'm on the right page now.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

Frostwolf said:


> Sorry, I'll keep my mouth shut, I missed it because I was tired. But I'm on the right page now.


No worries, we both covered a lot of *ground* in our posts.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

n4hhe said:


> What do I expect of it? Not much. The PVR-501 takes a couple of minutes to resync with the satellites on momentary power outage. With the UPS we skip that additional delay. And for $18 wouldn't you?


Yeah - that's about what I want out of it - keep the 625 from having to reboot on the infrequent drops in power. This unit holds me for about 30 minutes with the load I have on it (the 625, Ap4700 pre-amp, Channel Plus distribution system, and an additional distribution amp)


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## flatus (Aug 18, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> With respect, not true. I do agree that the more you spend the better the quality of the power (IF you spend wisely, there is some expensive yet underwhelming stuff out there).
> 
> There are "on-line" UPS units that supply true sine wave AC and are VERY "quiet". Cheap UPS units generally produce square wave AC through their inverters and that *is* noisy power. You do get what you pay for in UPS inits.


This why you cannot daisy chain UPSes to get additional run time, except for the sine wave models.


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

If you need more run time, use a big battery


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

scooper said:


> Anybody ?
> 
> I'd prefer one that doesn't do funky things to video output....


I was using a Liebert on one and an APC on the other.


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## cj9788 (May 14, 2003)

forgive the ignorance what exactly is this UPS?


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

cj9788 said:


> forgive the ignorance what exactly is this UPS?


*U*ninterruptable *P*ower *S*upply

See... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply


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## cj9788 (May 14, 2003)

subeluvr said:


> *U*ninterruptable *P*ower *S*upply
> 
> See... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply


THANKS for the info!


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## fredpb (Aug 30, 2007)

Most UPS have a simulated sinewave output.... stepped sinewave. This can cause RFI on some devices during battery only usage. If you have this problem, you can try another UPS brand or a "true sinewave" UPS. These are not cheap. But you can run your TV and stuff on it fine.

Right now, I no longer have a UPS connected.....just let the DVR BURN!


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

fredpb said:


> Most UPS have a simulated sinewave output.... stepped sinewave. This can cause RFI on some devices during battery only usage. If you have this problem, you can try another UPS brand or a "true sinewave" UPS. These are not cheap. But you can run your TV and stuff on it fine.


see post #14 in this thread


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