# HDMI "Washing out BLACKS" to be Addressed



## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

_I just received this e-mail from Audio-Video-Quality Department whom I have been working with on The HDMI output "Washing out the Blacks".
_
*Thanks ------, we do appreciate the information. We believe we have found the issue for the washed out video on the HDMI, it won't be in L446 when you get it but hopefully will go into L447.
*

They did not say what they have found but Engineering seems to know whats causing it. I have been playing e-mail tag with this Department for several weeks about OTA issues and The HDMI output from the 622 making the picture look "flat" compared to component video and it did not use to be this way. Anyway, I thought I would pass along hopefully some positive information.


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## Moridin (Mar 22, 2005)

Interesting. I've always chalked the differences in appearance between HDMI and component up to display calibration issues. If there really is a problem, it well be very nice to see a fix.

Of course, folks who've already paid for ISF calibration of their sets with the existing HDMI profile won't be very happy.


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## ncted (Aug 19, 2006)

On my AppleTV there is an HDMI Brightness setting. I would think it would be a simple thing to do on any HDMI compatible STB.

Ted


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

When I first received my 622 in OCT.2006 it was software revision 3.65. The HDMI output at that time was better than my component output. I compared pictures at that time because many were losing there HDMI connection and just living with component. I have never lost my HDMI connection. I do not know where it happened but somewhere in one of the software revisions The HDMI output was compromised. I am glad Dish addressed the problem and seems to know what happened. *Mark told me and others a long time ago to to e-mail the AUDIO-VIDEO-QUALITY DEPT. OF DISH with issues.* I have been doing this for a while and they always work with me. They ask me a lot of Questions and also to try certain things but they always e-mail me back. I am nice and constructive in my e-mails and they are very professional in there response. Engineering has e-mailed me more than once about certain issues such as this HDMI problem. 
*I have a professional ISF Calibrator scheduled in December. I hope this is resolved before he comes*.


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## octavian (Jul 7, 2006)

I also have problems using the HDMI output on the 622 with my LCD TV. The colors are washed out and the blacks are lousy. If a black screen is shown, it looks like the LCD has backlight bleed. When using component output I do not see these problems. I could not use the component though because my older DVD was using that input on the TV.

I recently purchased a PS3 to use as Blu-ray/DVD player and was very disappointed when it showed the exact same problems as the 622. After some reading on the internet I was able to correct the problem with the PS3 by setting it to RGB Full instead of its normal setting of RGB Limited.

So here is the problem as I understand it. There are 2 different color spaces that can be sent over HDMI/DVI. One is the video color space which uses values between 16-235. The other is the PC (or computer) color space which uses values between 0-255. So if you send a video black, which is 16, to a PC color space display were black should be 0, it will show up as a dark gray.

So obviously the 622 is using the video color space and my Sharp Aquos (which is a TV and not a PC monitor) is using the PC color space. The PS3 allows me to correct the problem by changing its output from a video color space (RGB Limited) to a PC color space (RGB Full). You would think that the 2 devices would talk to each other and both select the correct color space, but for some reason they don't. Hopefully the 622 will give us the option to set the correct color space for our TV's.

Of course this is just my observations though.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

I think it is repulsive for any set top box to discriminate against any race or color, including Blacks. I think we should protest Dish for this obvious racism. Washing out Blacks is going back to the pre-civil right era. Its just not right.


Oh wait, do you mean the TV set color that is displayed? Never mind.

Sincerely,
Emily Latella


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

ebaltz said:


> I think it is repulsive for any set top box to discriminate against any race or color, including Blacks. I think we should protest Dish for this obvious racism. Washing out Blacks is going back to the pre-civil right era. Its just not right.
> 
> Oh wait, do you mean the TV set color that is displayed? Never mind.
> 
> ...


:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:


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## wje (Mar 8, 2006)

This is a problem a number of TVs have had, and it's not the 622. There are a number of different color spaces that are in common use for various formats, and it's not all that uncommon for older TVs or LCD TVs that were derived from computer monitors to use the wrong one for HD signals.

The 622 is using the correct HD RGB color space for HD signals (which it was changed to do back around 4.41 or so, if I remember correctly). However, it could be hacked around (note, not fixed, cause it isn't broken from the 622 side) by the 622 adding a colorspace selection. Actually, it already has one, but it isn't settable.

My OPPO dvd player recently added just such a setting, and for exactly the same reason.

So, while it would be a nice thing for E* to add this, they shouldn't be beat up for doing the correct thing in the first place.


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

wje said:


> This is a problem a number of TVs have had, and it's not the 622. There are a number of different color spaces that are in common use for various formats, and it's not all that uncommon for older TVs or LCD TVs that were derived from computer monitors to use the wrong one for HD signals.
> 
> The 622 is using the correct HD RGB color space for HD signals (which it was changed to do back around 4.41 or so, if I remember correctly). However, it could be hacked around (note, not fixed, cause it isn't broken from the 622 side) by the 622 adding a colorspace selection. Actually, it already has one, but it isn't settable.
> 
> ...


All I can say is Dish recognizes that there is a problem with the HDMI in this area and they are going to correct it. I do not know what they have done different or what has happened to cause the HDMI output to look "WASHED OUT" but it is a recognized problem and Engineering is planning in the NEAR future to fix this problem.. My TV is not old (2006). I also have a RPTV CRT which are known for displaying vivid Blacks over most fixed pixels especially when ISF calibrated.


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## Tulsa1 (Oct 15, 2003)

smackman said:


> All I can say is Dish recognizes that there is a problem with the HDMI in this area and they are going to correct it. I do not know what they have done different or what has happened to cause the HDMI output to look "WASHED OUT" but it is a recognized problem and Engineering is planning in the NEAR future to fix this problem.. My TV is not old (2006). I also have a RPTV CRT which are known for displaying vivid Blacks over most fixed pixels especially when ISF calibrated.


I agree, this is definitely an issue that needs to be resolved.


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## wje (Mar 8, 2006)

smackman said:


> I do not know what they have done different or what has happened to cause the HDMI output to look "WASHED OUT"....


As I said, they changed the HDMI output to HD-RGB a while back. Some TV's can handle that, some can't. It's a legal HDMI value. There may or may not be more to it than that, I don't know. My TV is fine; it recognizes the proper colorspace; my greyscale displays properly using the HDNET greyscale test, and everything looks great using real programs (yes, my set was also ISF calibrated). Since they have said they're doing something about it, I'd guess they'll allow changing the colorspace manually.


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

wje said:


> As I said, they changed the HDMI output to HD-RGB a while back. Some TV's can handle that, some can't. It's a legal HDMI value. There may or may not be more to it than that, I don't know. My TV is fine; it recognizes the proper colorspace; my greyscale displays properly from below-black to white. Since they have said they're doing something about it, I'd guess they'll allow changing the colorspace manually.


Why would they change this value? What would be their reasoning for changing this? Also, Why would a TV such as mine that supports HDMI not be able to handle this? Like I said earlier, My RPTV is a 2006 model. Not very old. If it affects CRTs its affecting a lot of consumers.


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## ls7dude (Jan 31, 2007)

This is good information. I purchased a 50" plasma about 8 months ago and I chalked it up to the plasmas capabilities. 

Although, now that I think of it, the blacks on MHD HD are perfectly black so I guess it could certainly be a signal or HDMI issue.


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## wje (Mar 8, 2006)

smackman said:


> Why would they change this value? What would be their reasoning for changing this? Also, Why would a TV such as mine that supports HDMI not be able to handle this? Like I said earlier, My RPTV is a 2006 model. Not very old. If it affects CRTs its affecting a lot of consumers.


Just want to be clear that I'm not saying there isn't a problem, or that it isn't E*'s fault. However, if it's not their fault, then they shouldn't be blamed for it, but it would be nice if they provided a workaround, as did OPPO. If it is their fault, then they should certainly fix it.

So, as to your first and second questions, I don't know. Perhaps the original setting really wasn't correct. They made a number of HDMI changes recently. They might very well have had to do that to get HDMI compliance... you can't say you're HDMI anymore unless you actually conform to the specification, which many vendors didn't do.

As for your TV, if it indeed isn't using the correct colorspace, then you're not alone. That issue has been discussed on the web a fair amount. One theory is just laziness. One is that, since HD content has been rather rare, and most content is SD, using the NTSC SD colorspace was acceptable. Regardless, if it is your TV, then it is Mitsubishi's fault. The ATSC/HD standards are quite clear about the proper colorspace to use. It's also very unlikely that this affects all CRTs; it's doubtless vendor and model specific.

So, regardless of the cause, hopefully you'll have a solution soon.


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

Dish is resolving this problem. Hang on.   I guess some Televisions have the capability of changing Color Spaces automatically from RGB TO YCrBb. A manual choice would be nice. :hurah: :hurah:


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## Calvin386 (May 23, 2007)

I have two LCD's. A Sony KLV-S32A10 and a Sony KDL-46S2010. Both are Bravias. The 46 inch is TV1 to a VIP622 Via HDMI. The 32in is TV2 but if they ever release a dual HD output receiver it will be componet. 

Are both of these LCD's using the proper color space?


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

wje said:


> This is a problem a number of TVs have had, and it's not the 622. There are a number of different color spaces that are in common use for various formats, and it's not all that uncommon for older TVs or LCD TVs that were derived from computer monitors to use the wrong one for HD signals.
> 
> The 622 is using the correct HD RGB color space for HD signals (which it was changed to do back around 4.41 or so, if I remember correctly). However, it could be hacked around (note, not fixed, cause it isn't broken from the 622 side) by the 622 adding a colorspace selection. Actually, it already has one, but it isn't settable.
> 
> ...


Not true, when I had E*, with an 811, the HDMI was washed out. This happened after a software upgrade and hung arouund until I got rid of E* When I put my new Directv box in, the HDMI worked perfectly on the same tv with no wash out.


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

jal said:


> Not true, when I had E*, with an 811, the HDMI was washed out. This happened after a software upgrade and hung arouund until I got rid of E* When I put my new Directv box in, the HDMI worked perfectly on the same tv with no wash out.


You are correct; It is a E* problem or an E* CHOICE TO GO FROM YCrCb to RGB HDMI output..Some Televisions might have the capabilties to change color space. If you are hooked up component, its not a issue. If you are HOOKED UP HDMI E* went from YCrCb to RGB and it screwed up "some' HDMI inputs to "certain" Televisions. Maybe some Televisions are capable of adjusting the Brightness to correct this problem. You cannot correct this problem on my TV with the Brightness control unles sits in the service menu. Shortly, HOPEFULLY, we will have a color space choice.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jal said:


> Not true, when I had E*, with an 811, the HDMI was washed out.


Wasn't the 811 DVI?


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