# R15 Upgraded To 109A



## tcs_dtv (Nov 30, 2005)

My R15 just upgraded itself from software version 108F to 109A. Don't know yet what if any improvements were made. Any ideas? The download took about 5-7 minutes. Hope it fixes some issues.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Same here. Except that mine went from version 0x1044 to 0x109A. No new features or bug fixes noted yet.


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## tcs_dtv (Nov 30, 2005)

Mine says:

Original Ver: 0x1044
Past Upgrade: 0x109A (used to say: 108F)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

With the possible exception of the "A" after the "0x109.." as opposed to your "F", whatever that difference comes to mean, mine probably read similiar with a previous version of "0x0108" something ("A" maybe?.) and upgraded to this current version of 0x0109A. 

I've simply forgotton what the current version of the OS my R15 was running and assumed it was version 0x01044 as haven't really been using my it that much due to the number of problems with it and have been relying instead on my R10 DTIVO a lot. Had it not been for the R15's wierd way of updating it's software by completely shutting down first. I would have never noticed the upgrade.


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## tcs_dtv (Nov 30, 2005)

My mistake. I typed 109F when I meant 109A. I corrected it. Sorry about the confusion.


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## tcs_dtv (Nov 30, 2005)

HoTat2 said:


> I've simply forgotton what the current version of the OS my R15 was running and assumed it was version 0x01044 as haven't really been using my it that much due to the number of problems with it and have been relying instead on my R10 DTIVO a lot. Had it not been for the R15's wierd way of updating it's software by completely shutting down first. I would have never noticed the upgrade.


I have both units and agree with the above quote. I really hope some fixes come soon, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## joecool1964 (Nov 20, 2005)

tcs_dtv said:


> I have both units and agree with the above quote. I really hope some fixes come soon, but I'm not holding my breath.


Still at 108F here...


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## mak (Nov 16, 2005)

Mine still says ox108


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## LockMD (Nov 16, 2005)

Anybody notice the voice seems to come in sooner after pause or FF. Still not where I would like it to be, but it does appear to be faster.


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## Igor (Jan 3, 2005)

I have been using R15 now for awhile and did not experience any of the issues listed in the forum. I am glad to hear that a new version is being downloaded before I face the issues


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## eengert (Nov 16, 2005)

joecool1964 said:


> Still at 108F here...


Refer to the sticky thread regarding Codes and Shortcuts for a code that will force your R15 to download the latest update.


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## fancydancy (Nov 29, 2005)

How do I check what version of the software is running on my R15?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

I tried to force a download, it either A: Didn't work or B: I didn't get the update. Still on 108F here. What screen exactly are you supposed to do the 02468? Like describe what it says on the screen please.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

fancydancy said:


> How do I check what version of the software is running on my R15?


Select Menu - Settings - Setup - Info & Test then there will be a section on the right that says Software.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Ok I just forced a download and still on 108F, wonder if they only have this marked for a small set of people right now? Anyone found anything different on this new version yet?


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Kanyon71 said:


> Ok I just forced a download and still on 108F, wonder if they only have this marked for a small set of people right now? Anyone found anything different on this new version yet?


When they did DTivo updates that's how it went, a few at a time. Guess we'll get in line.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Just got off the phone with 2nd tier DVR fellow at DTV. The update began downloading at 2AM PST this morning. He said it is downloading every 15 minutes (though not how many at a time). He mentioned that one of the problems was series set up using the "find by" did not work properly and that this would help that. That was the problem I had run into so he had me set up the series using the guide. He confirmed it is indeed 109A. Mine is still 108F.

Hope that helps.


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## ZildjianB (Dec 19, 2005)

Forced an update here without any problems. Now running 109A.


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## joecool1964 (Nov 20, 2005)

eengert said:


> Refer to the sticky thread regarding Codes and Shortcuts for a code that will force your R15 to download the latest update.


I actually just got a replacement R-15 today due to the ongoing Series Link problems. I have tried numerous times tonight to 'force' an update, and I'm stuck on 0x1044. Guess I'll just wait a few days and see if it does an auto update...


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## shaun-ohio (Aug 24, 2002)

yep i got the software upgrade as well at 5:00 am eastern today, version Ox109A now dont know whats in it yet, hope it fixed the live buffer plus other bug issues


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## joecool1964 (Nov 20, 2005)

joecool1964 said:


> I actually just got a replacement R-15 today due to the ongoing Series Link problems. I have tried numerous times tonight to 'force' an update, and I'm stuck on 0x1044. Guess I'll just wait a few days and see if it does an auto update...


Ok - looks like 109A hit my new machine as well - around 4 this morning.
I'm cautiously optimistic...


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

109A 5 AM EDT - FF seems better, I don't see any change in Live buffer but then I did not have much time to check this morning. Just glad they are getting the message that there are things that need fixing.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

I got 109A at 4:58 EDT but I have no idea what it did.


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## fergiej (Nov 16, 2005)

I forced mine last night @ 6pm. I wanted to be able to play around with it and see if I can figure out what it fixed. The only obvious fix that I can see is that the audio comes back on immediately after pause or FF/REW. There had been a 2-3 delay in audio (for me, anyway) and that seems fixed. Beyond that, I don't know just yet. FF/REW issues are no change for me.


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## frogg (Nov 18, 2005)

Yes, but did it fix caller id?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Wouldn't it be nice if DTV published a list of "fixed bugs/enhancements" so all of you beta testers could try those and report back?


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Back with more KoolAid Wolf? Noticed lots of cups being offered. 

(Yes that is sarcasam)

List would be nice but in all my other beta tests I never saw one either. Maybe in time the forum will put one together. (Serious, not sarcasm coming) Unless people are just to afraid of being MBT each time they post. (Mugged By Trolls) 

Happy Holidays! Seriously!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Well ISWIZ I guess I should have bracketed that reply with sarcasm. After all you are not beta testers, just Guinea pigs.

To me it doesn't seem DTV or NDS or whoever, is paying any attention to this forum or the threads in it as they are not aware of any recording problems.

Personally, I view the R15 roll out somewhat like release a drug before FDA approval. If you think it will save your life, go for it. I'm just sitting here and reading. Posting when I feel it's called for.

But notice, I've been reading for quite some time now without getting into the "fray".


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## sheepishlion (Dec 4, 2005)

frogg, this firmware is supposed to fix the caller ID issues, so you can enable your caller ID once you get the update, and hopefully no more crashes, or bad information with the caller ID.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Well I have to give them the FF portion is a LOT better, you hit Play and it plays, I have noticed a slight jumpback when I hit play. Nothing as pronounced as Tivo but it's definately there. Has anyone else noticed it? Also the audio is instant when I hit play now.


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

Kanyon71 said:


> Well I have to give them the FF portion is a LOT better, you hit Play and it plays, I have noticed a slight jumpback when I hit play. Nothing as pronounced as Tivo but it's definately there. Has anyone else noticed it? Also the audio is instant when I hit play now.


Update received at 4:58 am, 12-22-05 Version # 0X109A

Kanyon71, i can also verify that the FF feature is better and almost (i said almost) instant with a slight jumpback. The audio also kicks in quicker than it used to.


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## fergiej (Nov 16, 2005)

OK, in some ways the FF is better. You are right that it plays immediately. But, I cannot tell if it jumps back at all. Certainly not nearly enough. Yet.


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

fergiej said:


> OK, in some ways the FF is better. You are right that it plays immediately. But, I cannot tell if it jumps back at all. Certainly not nearly enough. Yet.


Jerry, IMHO, i doubt that we will see it get any better than this and comparable to the TiVo based units. It has been reported in different threads and forums, that TiVo holds the patent on the "Jumpback" feature. It does however, beat having to hit "pause" and then "play" to at least get it close.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Well ISWIZ I guess I should have bracketed that reply with sarcasm. After all you are not beta testers, just Guinea pigs.
> 
> To me it doesn't seem DTV or NDS or whoever, is paying any attention to this forum or the threads in it as they are not aware of any recording problems.
> 
> ...


As have I, but I must confess, I had no electric for 6 days. You have been good, no coal for you.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ISWIZ said:


> As have I, but I must confess, I had no electric for 6 days. You have been good, no coal for you.


Ouch!!! Ice storm???

Back when we were in Michigan and lightning blew out our breaker box I convinced my wife to add a cutover for a generator and also got her to go along with the generator. We ended up using that baby 5-6 times for 1-2 days just due to ice. I'll tell ya, having well water without electric really sucks.

I can't even imagine 6 days.... :nono: :nono: :nono:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> To me it doesn't seem DTV or NDS or whoever, is paying any attention to this forum or the threads in it as they are not aware of any recording problems.


I can tell you almost certainly that they are watching the threads... They just don't openly participate in them.


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## bedavis007 (Dec 23, 2005)

I just got my R15 yesterday to replace a TiVo 35 hour box, and I'm having the same problems everyone else is: the "season pass manager" wants to record everything, etc. I got the 109A update moments after I set mine up, but it didn't fix anything. DirecTV's "TiVo support" in tech support said the update was to fix the Caller ID locking up problem, but they seemed shocked (!) when I told them about the season pass problem. When I advised it was all over every support forum I could find (including their own), they said they weren't getting calls about it. They assured me they would escalate the problem. I'm about to send this POS back..:eek2:


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

bedavis007 said:


> I just got my R15 yesterday to replace a TiVo 35 hour box, and I'm having the same problems everyone else is: the "season pass manager" wants to record everything, etc. I got the 109A update moments after I set mine up, but it didn't fix anything. DirecTV's "TiVo support" in tech support said the update was to fix the Caller ID locking up problem, but they seemed shocked (!) when I told them about the season pass problem. When I advised it was all over every support forum I could find (including their own), they said they weren't getting calls about it. They assured me they would escalate the problem. I'm about to send this POS back..:eek2:


Yeah I just got mine today and forced an update a little while ago. Now all my shows are recording repeats. I am also finding select shows that are a series that won't let me record as such, but I have a feeling that is more to do with the guide data then anything else since my Tivo picks it up as a season pass fine.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Hey folks, the guide data comes from the SAT. Don't for an instance think there are differences in the guide data streams coming for Tivos as opposed to R15's. The bottom line here is that the R15 software isn't processing the data like the Tivos are.

Even on the R15 you can see the series or show info, right? Doesn't it show the original air date? If the R15 shows the original air date under info, that would lead one to believe that the R15's "First Run/Repeat" software has some bugs in it.

Everyone, please stop blaming problems with the R15 on Guide Data. DTV sends Guide Data to the current DTivo units and those units work fine with that data. If DTV or NDS made the decision to send different guide data for the R15's then they should reconsider that decision and start using the Tivo data that they already have.

In my mind, Guide Data is a non-issue as the DTivo Guide Data seems to work.

This isn't a data issue, it's a software issue.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Wolf,

It doesn't show "original air date", be nice if it did.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Here's some of the info that comes to a DTivo in the guide data:


```
Title: History's Mysteries
Series Title: History's Mysteries
Affiliation: A&E
Episode Title: Monsters
Description: Exploring Historical Monsters
Language: English
ShowType: Series
TV Rating: TV-PG
Categories: Documentary, Mystery/Crime, History
Genre Code: 374 380 105 124 285
IsEpisode: True
Original Air Date: 10/25/2005
Simular Programs: History's Lost & Found, Ancient Almanac, In Search of...
```
Who knows if this is the same guide data the R15 is receiving or not. But this is the Guide Data the DTivos are receiving. So if the R15's are not receiving this maybe NDS should think about using the same data the DTivos use.

As I said before my DTivos are not attached to a phone line so all of this info is coming from the SAT.

Even though Rupert seems to want to reinvent the wheel, maybe he should consider borrowing some portions of it for a start.


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## pjo1966 (Nov 20, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Here's some of the info that comes to a DTivo in the guide data:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


I miss this info on the new box as well. The cast list is also much more extensive on the TiVo.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Yes, I forgot to mention the actors also.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Either the R15 and DTIVO get the same data and don't make the same use of it or, they do get the same data and act differently. 

I think it is the later for the reasons given above, they don't show information like a Last Aired Date, which if there sure would be easy to program for reruns.

There is of course another option, DTV strips out all that other data for some reason. I still recall that the data was not direct from the Trib but went to Tivo for "enhancement" and that was why it worked so well. 

Maybe Earl has some info on that?


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

Well, my old Philips receiver always displayed the original air date. That suggests that all DVRs and receivers probably get the same info and then display or use that info differently. It might also be the case that a unit uses certain info but then does not display it. IOW, just becasue the R15 does not show the original air date does not mean that it is not using that info.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if DTV published a list of "fixed bugs/enhancements" so all of you beta testers could try those and report back?


It's a Catch-22...

Provide a list of bugs/fixes, and then you give your competitors and everyone else out there an official list of issues with the box... aka... Oh wow, didn't even know that was broken...

IIRC... TiVo doesn't provide a list of bugs/fixes


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## jgottlieb (Dec 23, 2005)

It's software. There should be a version history (they have version numbers already). Microsoft lists the changes made when a new version comes out (or service pack, in its case).


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Yep, they do... but do you think they would be as detail in those notes (and they still don't include "everything"), if there wasn't a court order or agreement to do so?

Either way, it is still a catch-22.... and again, you don't see the "beloved" TiVo listing everything they fix in each release.

I too would like to see a list of what has changed, but I can understand why it doesn't


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## mphare (Nov 15, 2005)

We NEVER publish a bug list to the public. A customer can open an EIR if they find a problem and we'll address it. But we don't publish the EIR list to our other customers.

We will publish a new or updated feature list.

I suspect NDS, DTV, TiVo will all do the same thing.


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## shaun-ohio (Aug 24, 2002)

well the new software didnt help my guide issues? the problem i am having is i can pull up a listing for a certain movie or anything to record it will have all the good info on it then when you record it and play it back the only info on the program is what the program is about, no who stars in it, the year it was made, no good stuff about it at all and it does this on every program i record, now you tell me they are not having guide issues when the r10 that i still have gives you the right info on some program when i record it and play it back, then when you call customer service and they tell you the r15 is a tivo and i said no its no tivo mame and she says yes it is sir, then she switches me over to the tivo dept, then they try the r15 out so whe tells me while i am on the phone and it does the same thing when it records something to be played back no info on the program, so go figure this one out? and that was that she didnt say a thing about any software upgrade coming out to fix the guide issues, or replace the r15 that i bought


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## jgottlieb (Dec 23, 2005)

I also had a tech not just tell me, but _insist_ that the R15 is a TiVo driven unit. Funny thing was, was that she insisted the D10 was also.

I can tell you that I have the D10 (getting a DVR soon...which is why I've been asking so many questions) and the menu problems that everyone has been complaining about (granted, I don't see the recording menus, but the guide and autotune work the same way) are seen here too. Having to push the Guide button twice, early autotune, etc.

I did notice that the red and green buttons now jump through the guide in 12-hour steps. Don't know if it was there before. I liked that addition.

I think the "menu issues" people are reporting are not so much software bugs as they are a function of DTV missing the mark on customer wants/needs (except autotune probably shouldn't change channels 5 minutes ahead of time...especially if it's currently recording....does it do this?).


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## Igor (Jan 3, 2005)

I have two D10s and a R15. The fact that the user interface is consistent between the units is a great plus, I did not realize how nice is to have a single user interface until I replaced my DTivo by R15.

My R15 works just fine, I have my disk in the 75% full range and it is set to record about 12 recurring events (four series and the remaining are autorecords in case certain actors are in the event).


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

Vitor said:


> I have two D10s and a R15. The fact that the user interface is consistent between the units is a great plus, I did not realize how nice is to have a single user interface until I replaced my DTivo by R15.
> 
> My R15 works just fine, I have my disk in the 75% full range and it is set to record about 12 recurring events (four series and the remaining are autorecords in case certain actors are in the event).


I have the opposite situation. I have an HD Tivo and an R10. I ordered what I thought was an R10 and turns out it was an R15. Ya wanna know how hard this sucks switching between the intuitive Tivo UI and the counterintuitive NDS UI?


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

tall1 said:


> I have the opposite situation. I have an HD Tivo and an R10. I ordered what I thought was an R10 and turns out it was an R15. Ya wanna know how hard this sucks switching between the intuitive Tivo UI and the counterintuitive NDS UI?


Anything you are used to becomes "intuitive" and something that is different is "counterintuitive." I went from a SA Replay to a Dish Network 721 to a DirecTivo (and I just got an R15 but I'm still using the Tivo). Every time I switched, it was an adjustment, and switching to the Tivo was no less of one. I still think the Replay had the best UI of all of them, although that could just be because it was the first one I got used to.


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

dbronstein said:


> Anything you are used to becomes "intuitive" and something that is different is "counterintuitive."


Look up the word intuitive.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/intuitive

1 a : known or perceived by intuition : directly apprehended <had an intuitive awareness of his sister's feelings> b : knowable by intuition
2 : knowing or perceiving by intuition
3 : possessing or given to intuition or insight <an intuitive mind>

Intuition:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/intuition

1 : quick and ready insight
2 a : immediate apprehension or cognition b : knowledge or conviction gained by intuition c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference

--- So in other words, those that find TiVo easy to use... have no rational thoughts... (I am kidding)

-------------- Still boils down to, you are used to one thing, then try something different, and try to get it to do the same things you where used to....

Kinda like driving a Automatic, then a Stick shift.... Takes a little getting used to, but no one is saying that The Ford Escort is better then Ford Mustang Cobra because "it is a little different to use"...


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Ebonovic has it. If a person is used to the Tivo interface, they are probably going to find it a little difficult to get used to a new UI. They're "intuition" is to try to do things the same way as they did them on the Tivo. 

The way to see how intuitive the R15 really is would be to have a bunch of people who have never used a DVR or DirecTV try it out and see how easy/hard it is for them to figure it out.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

dbronstein said:


> The way to see how intuitive the R15 really is would be to have a bunch of people who have never used a DVR or DirecTV try it out and see how easy/hard it is for them to figure it out.


-
Well, I'm one of those who never used a TiVO and have 2 R15's. I found them to be easy to learn and easy to use. Having the same user interface, remote, and commands as the standard receiver (D11) was great - my wife really appreciated that. I won't argue that there are some things that are a menu level lower than I would like, but I am having no problem using my R15s.
-
Now to get a better idea of what the "old school" folks are talking about, I've ordered an R10, which won't get here until the new year (fed ex ground is painfully slow). I'll report on how it is to go the other way, from an R15 to an R10 once I have a chance to do so.
-
Carl


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## rkkeller (Dec 27, 2005)

When you get the R-10 just try using the guide or rearranging your SP list and tell us what you think compared to the R-15.

Also when your sitting there in complete silence with the R-10 staring in disbelief at how long a "Please Wait" banner can actually last, come and tell us what you think compared to the R-15 with its almost instant actions and picture in the guide menus and NO "please wait" screens anywhere.

I know some people are hooked on their TiVo's but its a no contest IF you dont let the TiVo people shout everyone down and be the only ones posting here.


Rich


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Welcome to the board... rkkeller


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

rkkeller said:


> When you get the R-10 just try using the guide or rearranging your SP list and tell us what you think compared to the R-15.
> 
> Also when your sitting there in complete silence with the R-10 staring in disbelief at how long a "Please Wait" banner can actually last, come and tell us what you think compared to the R-15 with its almost instant actions and picture in the guide menus and NO "please wait" screens anywhere.
> 
> ...


Then tell us what you think when the R15 doesn't record what you thought you told it to record or it recorded way more than you told it to record. I can deal with a little extra wait time if the Tivo accurately records exactly what I want.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

rkkeller said:


> When you get the R-10 just try using the guide or rearranging your SP list and tell us what you think compared to the R-15.
> 
> Also when your sitting there in complete silence with the R-10 staring in disbelief at how long a "Please Wait" banner can actually last, come and tell us what you think compared to the R-15 with its almost instant actions and picture in the guide menus and NO "please wait" screens anywhere.
> 
> ...


Or....

Picture your disbelief when you go to view your favorite show and it wasn't recorded...and you have no idea why (maybe that's why you didn't get a "please wait" message, it just dropped your show);
...or your lack of a 30 second skip feature;
...or your last of dual tuner buffers;
...or the fact your guide takes 24-36 hours to be reloaded every time you loose power or reboot;
...or your ability to record "some" channels and not record "other" channels you subscribe to;
...or your need to review your TO DO list every day to make sure you record all of the shows you should be recording;
...or the fact your R15 can't tell the difference between a first run and a repeat;
...or your lack of "suggestions" (I know some don't like this but many also do find this valuable);
...or how long it takes to page through your TODO LIST during your daily review;
...or the fact that items do not appear in your TODO LIST but in the guide they indicate they will be recorded;
...or the lack of show details that are available in the guide data provided to DTIvo units;
...or the R15's lack of something as simple as the 28 day rule which is available on a DTivo.

Ok, I'll stop now.

Rich, no one ever said any DVR is perfect. But don't try to make the R15 out to be your savior simply because it's quicker at one task than a Tivo is.

You are correct, this isn't a contest. Also believe that the "Tivo people" aren't shouting anything. It's just the "Tivo people" don't view the world through Rose Colored Glasses and would like to make sure that anyone new to this forum sees the "what's good" and "what's bad" about DTV's new direction and new generation DVRs.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Or....
> Picture your disbelief when you go to view your favorite show and it wasn't recorded...and you have no idea why (maybe that's why you didn't get a "please wait" message, it just dropped your show);


Has not happened to me in over a month of using 2 R15's.



Wolffpack said:


> ...or your lack of a 30 second skip feature;
> ...or your last of dual tuner buffers;


Neither are software bugs or flaws, they are design differences. I have no problem using FF to skip over commercials with the R15. I'll comment on dual buffers after I have an opportunity to use them, but again it isn't a flaw, it is a design difference.



Wolffpack said:


> ...or the fact your guide takes 24-36 hours to be reloaded every time you loose power or reboot;


Well, I've never lost power, and I've only rebooted one of the R15's once and don't expect it will be an ongoing issue.



Wolffpack said:


> ...or your ability to record "some" channels and not record "other" channels you subscribe to;


Valid problem that needs to be, and will hopefully be, fixed in the near future. I have not experienced it personally though, even attempting the recordings that others have had problems with.



Wolffpack said:


> ...or your need to review your TO DO list every day to make sure you record all of the shows you should be recording;


Have not needed to do that.



Wolffpack said:


> ...or the fact your R15 can't tell the difference between a first run and a repeat;


Valid problem that needs to be fixed.



Wolffpack said:


> ...or your lack of "suggestions" (I know some don't like this but many also do find this valuable);


I personally cannot imagine ever wanting suggestions. I expect one of the very first things I will do with the R10 is turn them off. But again, this is not a flaw or a bug, it is a design differene (and a good one in my opinion).



Wolffpack said:


> ...or how long it takes to page through your TODO LIST during your daily review;
> ...or the fact that items do not appear in your TODO LIST but in the guide they indicate they will be recorded;


Well, I don't scroll through my todo list. Don't need to, it works for me. Thus, I don't know if items do or do not appear in my todo list normally, as I don't review it. So far my R15's are recording what I want them to.



Wolffpack said:


> ...or the lack of show details that are available in the guide data provided to DTIvo units;


I will compare this when I get the R10. So far, the guide data in the R15 has provided sufficient information for my purposes.



Wolffpack said:


> ...or the R15's lack of something as simple as the 28 day rule which is available on a DTivo.


How are TiVo units effected by a womans bodily functions? Just kidding, but what is the 28 day rule?



Wolffpack said:


> Ok, I'll stop now.


Okay, me too.

Carl


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

28 day rule stops Tivo from recording an episode it has recorded in the last 28 days even if you have repeats setup. This is extremely usefull if you have a show that has multiple airings of a single episode such as Sopranos. 

As far as the guide data issue with reboots, this can be frustrating especially when you have tech support on the phone and they tell you to reboot then schedule another recording. When I told them I didn't have any guide data to do this since I rebooted they told me to call back in a day or two once my data was full.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

From what I have seen with a reboot...

In the first few minutes, it rebuild the guide data for "today", over the next few hours it loads up for the next two days after then, and then over the next few hours finishes out the week, within 24 hours you have 13 to 14 days full... Just another reason (above and beyond all the others) to make sure you have your DVR (be it an R10 or R15 or what ever) on a UPS system, so it doesn't get hit by tiny power outages.



My best guess is that the "guide data" is stored on the hard drive, but is then loaded up into memory to improve the guide performance... which is in the top 5 complaints of TiVo users.


I have found that if I shut OFF the DVR, "hit the power button", the guide does reload faster, but I haven't clocked it to see how much faster.


As for the 28 day rule.... I thought some people have reported that it does follow some sort of 28 day rule.... I do know that it follows at least a 24 hour rule for some programs (aka my evening news replays at 1:30am... but when I had it recording just 1 it thought the 10pm news was the repeat in the same day)... so there is some logic there.

And the guide "details" are more available on the R10... you can hit the info button and see a LOT more about the show then you can on the R15... which goes along with the fact that the TiVo needs more guide data to work the suggestion logic.


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

dbronstein said:


> Anything you are used to becomes "intuitive" and something that is different is "counterintuitive." I went from a SA Replay to a Dish Network 721 to a DirecTivo (and I just got an R15 but I'm still using the Tivo). Every time I switched, it was an adjustment, and switching to the Tivo was no less of one. I still think the Replay had the best UI of all of them, although that could just be because it was the first one I got used to.


This is not what intuitive means. Anything that you are used to becomes a "habit" or a recurrent, often unconscious pattern of behavior that is acquired through frequent repetition. The only thing required to know about Tivo is "right, left, up, down, and select". It is instinctive to know which direction the cursor will move if you press the up or down arrow on Tivo. It is an intuitive user interface.

With the R15 you need to "learn" via repetition a unique and cryptic menu system, what the different colored buttons do, and memorize a variety of special function keys on the remote. Having to learn and memorize this interface via frequent repetition and trial and error, is counterintuitive.

I believe NDS had a "model" they used for the R15 which is on their Sky+ box and is familiar to current Sky customers. NDS most likely wanted to support only one "model" and leverage their R&D investment. Their current Sky customers already have this model memorized and they want to support only one "model" so let the D* customers memorize it too.

Similar to Windows 95 through Windows XP, which btw is the most counterintuitive user interface ever created by man, Microsoft is not going to change their "model" to make it intuitive because current Windows users now have it memorized and it is a habit.

Arguing that the R15 will "become" intuitive is rationalization.


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## laxcoach (Dec 7, 2005)

tall1 said:


> This is not what intuitive means. Anything that you are used to becomes a "habit" or a recurrent, often unconscious pattern of behavior that is acquired through frequent repetition. The only thing required to know about Tivo is "right, left, up, down, and select". It is instinctive to know which direction the cursor will move if you press the up or down arrow on Tivo. It is an intuitive user interface.


Your definition of Tivo as intuitive is skewed by your experience with it. As a system architect, I believe there is no such thing as "intuitive" GUIs by your definition. GUIs are only intuitive if they have familiar patterns.

As an example, consider "settings" on UTV, DTivo and R15. I can find the settings in the main menu of UTV and R15. Going from UTV->R15, this is familiar. Now, when I got my first DTivo, it never occurred to me that I would press a "direct tv" logo button to get to a green-screen menu. Is it counter-intuitive? No. It is just unfamiliar.

I come from UTV. I found my first DTivo frustrating and counter-intuitive. I also found the R15 counter-intuitive. My wife hates both and wants her UTV back. The reason is because of habits, not because of the design. As time goes on, I have gotten used to both and my wife will be forced to .

The best measure of an application GUI is how long it takes a newbie to learn the interface, not how long it takes a convert. The nature of us being here talking about this suggests that we are all too invested in our habits to be impartial judges of that.


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## ChrisWyso (Nov 16, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> From what I have seen with a reboot...
> 
> ...My best guess is that the "guide data" is stored on the hard drive, but is then loaded up into memory to improve the guide performance... which is in the top 5 complaints of TiVo users...


Earl, this is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves about this unit. I do not believe the guide data is stored anywhere but in RAM. Otherwise, once we rebooted or powered back up after a outage, all the guide data would exist instantly (subtracting, of course, for load time into RAM). I think what D* did was look at one of the top (if not THE top) complaints people have about the R-10 or Series 2's, and said "How can we make ours superior?" The software engineers of course said "put the data in RAM." Problem is, that's the ONLY place they put it.

I've said it before. Earl, I think you said you are a programmer too, right? How many lines of code does it take to write a file, right? We've got more fingers & toes.

_EXAMPLE:_ Interactive Weather Data
Write ZIP code
Loop thru additional locations
write data if necessary
close file

This is, of course, a simplified version, but it's not much more than this. The guide data shouldn't be that hard either. If it wrote it to an XML or similarly structured file, it could be parsed quite quickly.

Hey, they could go one step further. If they started using the USB's and connected thru broadband, the unit could just DL an XML file from their server that's constantly being updated. The file would not be huge, and the guide data would be re-populated in a matter of minutes. You know that they have the data in a structured form already.

I hope I'm not coming off too strong on this at anyone but D* on this. These, to me, are simple little details that were forgotten about, or passed over, that could be corrected with a MINOR amount of re-coding.

-Chris


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ChrisWyso said:


> Earl, this is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves about this unit. I do not believe the guide data is stored anywhere but in RAM. Otherwise, once we rebooted or powered back up after a outage, all the guide data would exist instantly (subtracting, of course, for load time into RAM). I think what D* did was look at one of the top (if not THE top) complaints people have about the R-10 or Series 2's, and said "How can we make ours superior?" The software engineers of course said "put the data in RAM." Problem is, that's the ONLY place they put it.
> 
> I've said it before. Earl, I think you said you are a programmer too, right? How many lines of code does it take to write a file, right? We've got more fingers & toes.
> 
> ...


Well to be fair here, Tivo took the smart way and wrote to the drive BUT if your Guide data runs out or its a new unit it will take equally as long to sort out the guide data and write it out to the file.

I have no idea if DirecTV is doing this or not but as Earl stated because of the speed that it loads the first day or so into the machines memory I would think it at least has some guide data sitting local as the first day at least is there instantly after a reboot.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

laxcoach said:


> As an example, consider "settings" on UTV, DTivo and R15. I can find the settings in the main menu of UTV and R15. Going from UTV->R15, this is familiar. Now, when I got my first DTivo, it never occurred to me that I would press a "direct tv" logo button to get to a green-screen menu. Is it counter-intuitive? No. It is just unfamiliar.


I don't really believe that's a good example. The "DirecTV" button gets you to DIRECTV Central which is the unit's MENU. What you're referring to here is labeling. Instead of a MENU button you have a DIRECTV button plus it's located at the very top of the remote. Once one realizes DIRECTV=MENU it's very intuitive.


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## rkkeller (Dec 27, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Or....
> 
> It's just the "Tivo people" don't view the world through Rose Colored Glasses and would like to make sure that anyone new to this forum sees the "what's good" and "what's bad" about DTV's new direction and new generation DVRs.


Thats where you are mistaken. Its very sad when users of a different make of box feel the need to defend their choices and cause problems and arguements here. There is already a TiVo forum and you are welcome to go there to discuss TiVo without cable DVR makers, DISH users and others trying to force their different views on you.

Comparing the R-15 in its infancy against an established DirecTiVo thats been around for years and been through numerious upgraded is just not realistic. I know I did it too but I think we just need to wait and see really.

Rich


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

laxcoach said:


> Your definition of Tivo as intuitive is skewed by your experience with it. As a system architect, I believe there is no such thing as "intuitive" GUIs by your definition. GUIs are only intuitive if they have familiar patterns.
> 
> As an example, consider "settings" on UTV, DTivo and R15. I can find the settings in the main menu of UTV and R15. Going from UTV->R15, this is familiar. Now, when I got my first DTivo, it never occurred to me that I would press a "direct tv" logo button to get to a green-screen menu. Is it counter-intuitive? No. It is just unfamiliar.
> 
> ...


So when you look at a Tivo remote and it has a round disk that has directional arrows that point up, down, left, and right, this is somehow counterintuitive to you? Are you concerned if you press the up arrow the remote may burst into flames? How is this not intuitive? The select button has Select printed on it, how is this counterintuitive? Compared to the R15's red, blue, yellow, and green buttons which I couldn't tell you now what they all do if you held a gun to my head, the Tivo is intuitive, the R15 is not. My definition of Tivo as intuitive is knowing my left from my right, up from down. I don't have to memorize 4 different color buttons and what each one does.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I do agree that it probably could be done "quicker"... but without seeing the code and knowing what limitations are in there... I can't be sure at all.


It is not like they have a full Relational Database in there... nor probably a full XML engine either....


There is no doubt that the guide we see on the screen is loaded in memory, but I do think parts of it are stored on the hard drive... 


Yes, I am a software developer... And yes, in "theory" it should only be a few lines of code... but one thing I have learned.... "theory" and "real life" very rarely match.


I would gather to guess that the "Guide" data is pretty large. 
This is just a guess here... I have no inside knowledge on this segment.
600ish channels (got to include all the channels, not just the ones we have.. remember all the locals are in there somewhere for all areas). Say 32 segments a day per channel (to account for long and short shows), 14 days of guide data...

That is 268,800 entries... and that would probably just before channel-title-time

Start mixing in the keywords and other "find by" items, ect....

If there is no relational database engine in there, and is done via flat files or some other means..... 

That "could" take some time to get it all done.

I am not trying to excuse the pace the guide reloads at... "most of the time" it should matter as we done restart them that often.. but it does matter sometimes...
I am just trying to come out with a rational explanation for it.


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## rkkeller (Dec 27, 2005)

People seem to gloss over the crap TiVo and DirecTiVo users had to go through and all the SAME type problems with it first came out. The R-15 is a first generation machine JUST released, only a couple updates already and has been steadily advancing if you look at the releases. In its initial release it still has more features than I remember with my Philips 704 or R-10.

Oh yeah, lets compare the R-15 in its infancy against a TiVo unit thats been around for many years and been through countless updates, real fair comparison
and one of the main reason people start thinking so bad about the R-15 when its not and a hell of a nice unit.

People also need to remember this is not TiVo, will not have a TiVo cartoonish interface, no peanut remote and will not have TiVo features. Its not a TiVo and will not be as DirecTV is moving beyond TiVo. I for one am very pleased with their choice in the R-15 and I am sure once its been around a few months things will get much better. It took how many years and how many bug fixes before the Philips 704 and other units even had folders and other features the R-15 has from the start.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

rkkeller said:


> Thats where you are mistaken. Its very sad when users of a different make of box feel the need to defend their choices and cause problems and arguements here. There is already a TiVo forum and you are welcome to go there to discuss TiVo without cable DVR makers, DISH users and others trying to force their different views on you.
> 
> Comparing the R-15 in its infancy against an established DirecTiVo thats been around for years and been through numerious upgraded is just not realistic. I know I did it too but I think we just need to wait and see really.
> 
> Rich


No one is defending anything, just commenting.

Also, DTivo users are as welcome here to post as R15 users. The DTV forums here are intended for DTV DVR's not just DTV's own DVR.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

rkkeller said:


> People seem to gloss over the crap TiVo and DirecTiVo users had to go through and all the SAME type problems with it first came out. The R-15 is a first generation machine JUST released, only a couple updates already and has been steadily advancing if you look at the releases. In its initial release it still has more features than I remember with my Philips 704 or R-10.
> 
> Oh yeah, lets compare the R-15 in its infancy against a TiVo unit thats been around for many years and been through countless updates, real fair comparison
> and one of the main reason people start thinking so bad about the R-15 when its not and a hell of a nice unit.
> ...


I realize you just joined a couple of days ago but this topic has been discussed over and over again in many different threads. Perhaps you should review some of those posts to give yourself a little background on what discussions have already taken place.

If you choose to take the view that DTV released a fine product that's your choice. But I totally disagree with anyone that insists on comparing the R15 to the original Tivo. The R15 is a replacement for the R10 and as such should be compared to the R10 for reliability and functionality.

DTV has been selling a DVR for years. Customers that have an existing DVR from DTV should be able to expect any new DVR from DTV to be comparable to the product they have grown accustom to.


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## laxcoach (Dec 7, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> I don't really believe that's a good example. The "DirecTV" button gets you to DIRECTV Central which is the unit's MENU. What you're referring to here is labeling. Instead of a MENU button you have a DIRECTV button plus it's located at the very top of the remote. Once one realizes DIRECTV=MENU it's very intuitive.


That is my whole point. intuitive==familiar. As soon as you add a qualifier like "Once one realizes...." you are getting into the realm of familiarity. I'm sure the advocates of each system could list 10 "non-intuitive" GUI flows for the other.

I personally think we are all just monkeys pressing buttons. As long as the thing pops out my treat, I don't care where the button is and what the box looks like.


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> No one is defending anything, just commenting.
> 
> Also, DTivo users are as welcome here to post as R15 users. The DTV forums here are intended for DTV DVR's not just DTV's own DVR.


You are correct. A little ironic, given that DTIVO users already have a forum that R15 discussion is discouraged on. But you are correct.


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## ChrisWyso (Nov 16, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> ... And yes, in "theory" it should only be a few lines of code... but one thing I have learned.... "theory" and "real life" very rarely match...


You and me both, brother. I guess what it really boils down to, for me, is really just the read/write portion to the HD. I just can't conceive why they wouldn't write ALL the guide data DL'ed to the HD. And our weather options for that matter too. The HD is there, use 100Mb for the data. They've already held 80Gb from us that they're not using yet. And I really don't think the guide data would fill 100Mb either. I'm just viewing it as either a missed opportunity to make a better product, or some "team" making a HUGE oversite. And when I say "team", you know as well as I, 99% of the time it's not the engineering team, it's those suits who think they know what WE want.


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> If you choose to take the view that DTV released a fine product that's your choice. But I totally disagree with anyone that insists on comparing the R15 to the original Tivo. The R15 is a replacement for the R10 and as such should be compared to the R10 for reliability and functionality.
> 
> DTV has been selling a DVR for years. Customers that have an existing DVR from DTV should be able to expect any new DVR from DTV to be comparable to the product they have grown accustom to.


I would have to agree here also. I don't expect an R15 to be perfect, but I do expect it to perform better than if it were the first DVR ever. I didn't buy a Microsoft Xbox when it came out knowing it was their first console and hope it played the games that were made for the system. I shouldn't have to hope the R15 would work as a reliable product. My R-15 is full while I have all of the series link set at first run, while my Tivo is empty and it is set the same way with more season passes since I hit the 50 wall on the R15. I also shouldn't have to call Directv and hear their shock when I tell them about the problems I am having.

I will be the first to admit I love Tivo and I can't imagine watching tv without it. I also know that if something better came along I would easily make the switch, but imho the R15 isn't something better. Maybe people are more upset that directv decided for the consumer and didn't bother to check to see if the users were happy. I realize it is their business, but it is my business they are trying to keep. Who knows maybe in the end this will result in the same way New Coke worked for Coca-Cola. It tested well and was preferred, but as soon as it was released there was an outcry for the original.


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## astrotrf (Apr 5, 2004)

The word "intuitive" does not mean "familiar". The idea of an "intuitive" interface (and I'll admit that it's a bit of a misuse of the word) is an interface that you can simply *look at* to figure out how to use it. Do the presented buttons offer the choices the user has a right to expect at this point? Do the labels on the buttons convey to the user what the function is? Does the button actually *do* what its label implies, or does it do something else?

While thiis kind of thing is not truly "intuition", it does imply an intellectual transparency. Perhaps the best question to ask is "Can I make this thing do what I want it to do _without reference to the manual, and without having studied the manual beforehand_?" If the answer to that question is generally "yes", that's basically what is meant by an "intuitive" interface, within the somewhat distorted meaning of the word as employed by user-interface designers.

Terry (astrotrf)


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## astrotrf (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't have an R15, and it sounds to me as though it's too early to get one. I *do* have a pair of R10s. The TiVo R10s are *great*; they work and do what they're supposed to do without bugs. (I speak as a former Dish Network subscriber; to have a DVR with essentially 0 bugs is a nirvana only *dreamed of* by E* folks.)

For me, the way to evaluate the R15 is as a follow-on replacement for the R10, which is essentially what it is. I don't expect it to work the same way a TiVo does, but I *do* expect it to do what a TiVo does - record what I want, when I want, and provide most, if not all, of the other neat features of TiVo such as season passes and keyword wish lists, &c.

Some of the posters here think the way to evaluate an R15 is to pretend DVRs haven't existed for the past few years, and look at the R15 as a device invented with no prior knowledge of what a DVR should do. While this is certainly their prerogative, they are incorrect in their insistence that it is unfair to expect an R15 to measure up to an R10 in terms of features and ease of use.

I've never read the manual that came with the R10, except to look up a couple of fine points. For me, the menu system was completely obvious from day 1, and my wife, who is decidedly less technically-oriented than I, navigates the R10 like a pro (I don't think she even knows where the manual *is*).

I know the R15 is not a TiVo, and I don't *care* that it's not a TiVo - but it had better approach the reliability and ease of use the R10 enjoys, or it is not a "good" product (it may turn out to be a *necessary* product, good or not).

And lastly, "Suggestions". I have it turned on and very frequently watch "suggested" recordings. Having the feature and being able to disable it is a much better idea than not having it at all. I appreciate that some folks seem to know exactly what they want to watch and are not interested in watching anything they don't know about. But I find that the "suggestions" are frequently things I certainly would have watched had I but known they existed - so I find this feature invaluable.

So I am waiting and watching, filled with dread that some of the features of my TiVo R10s that I have come to *rely* on will soon be lost because I'll be forced to move to less-capable R15 receivers to keep up with the times.

I *hope* the R15 will get much better as the future goes on. But all I can think of when I see "R15" is "Dish 921" ... and for those of you who don't know, the 921 has been a bug farm for years, which never delivered all of its promised functionality, often fails to correctly perform the simplest of its tasks, and suffers from disastrous software failures to this day, years and many software updates after its introduction.

Terry (astrotrf)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Just so you are aware... "Suggestions" and "Wishlist" are two patent items by TiVo.... So seeing them on other DVRs is not going to be that often, unless they come up with another mechanism to do something similar... (aka... it may come, but it will be a while)


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## AppliedAggression (Aug 16, 2003)

The R15 does have wishlists. And while, it may not have everything the Tivo does, it does have other things the Tivo does not. Overall, I'm extremely glad I traded in my R10 for the R15, I couldn't stand the extreme slowness of the Tivo.

I now find myself using the guide a lot more, finding new shows, browsing the guide when a show is slow, going through menus, all things the Tivo didn't allow me to do. I now watch live tv again, which was almost impossible with the Tivo, since the guide was so slow and almost useless. For me the R15 is a big step up from the Tivo.


One thing that happened when I had the Tivo was that I would find myself watching the same shows over and over again. When nothing new recorded, I would watch the Seinfelds, or Friends or whatever else was always on there. Now I seem to record a lot more single showings (history channel shows, discovery shows with a topic that interest me) because of the guide and when there's nothing that suits me, I don't settle for something already recorded but see what's on TV at the time.


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## rkkeller (Dec 27, 2005)

I totally agree with you AppliedA. Now with a fast and usable guide plus having an entire picture/sound showing so that you can still follow what your watching, I too find myself using the guide more and doing a lot of what you are. On my R-10 and Philips 704, I never used them much or really looked around as I hated sitting there and/or not being able to see a picture and waiting while the clunky guide filled line by line. Some TiVo screens you have to sit there in complete silence and that used to make me rush to get done and I never could fully look around.


Rich


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

AppliedAggression said:


> The R15 does have wishlists.


No... it doesn't have "Wishlists"... It has Find By... which is similar in function, but is not the same as the TiVo's wishlist feature.

Which for one, help control the SUGGESTION logic, and gave the ability to serach ALL of them in one swoop...

So, yes... it has "wishlist" functionality, but it is not exactly the same... and that was the intent of my post to point that out.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> No... it doesn't have "Wishlists"... It has Find By... which is similar in function, but is not the same as the TiVo's wishlist feature.
> 
> Which for one, help control the SUGGESTION logic, and gave the ability to serach ALL of them in one swoop...
> 
> So, yes... it has "wishlist" functionality, but it is not exactly the same... and that was the intent of my post to point that out.


OK, well in that case, which of their patents do you believe covers Wishlists? Come to think of it, I'm not sure I see their "suggestions" patent, either.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Hmm.... Then maybe it is just the "word" Wishlist that is protected (it does have a TM next to it).... I guess I just translated that to mean that they patent the technology behind it.


I could sworn that the Thumbs Up/Down raiting system, Wishlist, Suggestions where all patented items. But If I am wrong.... thanks for the corrections


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