# R15???



## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

Is the R15 an adandond product or on it's way out? There doesn't seem to be much happening. I thought the gamelounge and DVR games would be up and running by march.... If I bought an HR20 off Ebay, could I just get SD only programing to it, since I don't have a HD tv, as of yet? Thanks.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

dodge boy said:


> Is the R15 an adandond product or on it's way out? There doesn't seem to be much happening. I thought the gamelounge and DVR games would be up and running by march.... If I bought an HR20 off Ebay, could I just get SD only programing to it, since I don't have a HD tv, as of yet? Thanks.


Don't think its abandoned just yet. But since D* does not write the software for it, they must wait for the company that does. Which in this case seems to mean longer cycles for updates, alas.

If you buy an HR20, you can get all the programming your dish configuration will allow (3lnb will get all the MPEG2 HD as well as all the SD) plus Digital OTA. And it allows any TV that has at least composite inputs to display all the channels, tho any HD content will be downres'ed to your TVs capabilities.

In my mind, an HR20 is just one great way to start building your HD system. (Or you could buy the TV first. Either way works.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

thanks


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## Teronzhul (Sep 21, 2006)

If you get an HR20 though, and activate it, you have to pay the HD access fee regardless as to whether or not you're actually receiving HD programming, per the new fee structure that D* implemented last month.


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## Cynaburst (Feb 16, 2007)

I had the same idea, and was planning on getting an HR-20 for my non-HD TV but then someone on this forum told me about the HD access fee, which is $10/mo. which seemed like alot to pay for basically nothing (it would mean 100 extra hours of space on your DVR, but $120/year seemed excessive for this).

Therefore, following a code I found on this forum, I was able to order an R-15 yesterday for free including installation. I figure that way, I save the cost of the HR 20 of $200, save the access fee, and when I go get HD TV eventually, then I can upgrade.

I know that the R-15 is not as good of a piece of equipment, but for free, I figure I can risk it.

Good luck.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I don't believe the unit's been abandoned at all - it's just that (I KNOW I'm asking for it) it's gotten more stable for most folks, so there's no need to do as many put-out-the-fire type updates. As for gamelounge, I hadn't heard a specific date on that, just that it would be coming in the future - in fact I was under the impression that it would be much later in the year - summer at the earliest. I wouldn't take the fact that it's not on the R15 yet as a sign of anything regarding the abandonment of the unit. It makes no sense that they would abandon it. It's their current, active SD DVR platform. Why would they stop supporting the current product? My guess is that DirecTV has alot of irons in the fire right now. Which is what I think all of these companies are dealing with - getting up on HD, upgrading their DVRs, establishing a consistent architecture, setting up interactive capabilities, VOD, DirecTV 2 go, you name it. There are only so many resources that they can throw at any one initiative at one time. I get the sense that they had more problems with the r15, and hr20, than they anticipated, and are now playing a bit of catch-up on these other initiatives. But until they come out an R20 I'm going to assume that the R15 is being actively supported.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

I suppose it's a question of the meaning of the word "abandoned." Perhaps because I am one of those who continue to enjoy numerous problems, I would say that the word fits the current situation. To pull off resources prematurely, when major problems remain, is to abandon. In answer to the rebuttal that work continues, albeit at a slower pace, I'd concede that the abandonment is therefore not total. But, DTV has quite deliberately left some of us in the lurch.

The aggravating part is that, meanwhile, they pretend ignorance of the situation. A frank apology would have mollified me several months ago. But, in my mind, they've now crossed the moral boundary of the territory of deception. It's unlikely that I will ever again have any confidence in any claim or statement they make. And, I will eagerly jump ship at the first potentially feasible opportunity. I formerly recommended their service to others and believe that I'm responsible for tipping several decisions in their favor. I now recommend against them, on purely moral grounds. I'd rather thave a snowy picture than be lied to. I simply will not reward those who take, or try to take, advantage of me. I suspect that many others feel likewise.

Cheers,


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

wbmccarty said:


> I suppose it's a question of the meaning of the word "abandoned." Perhaps because I am one of those who continue to enjoy numerous problems, I would say that the word fits the current situation. To pull off resources prematurely, when major problems remain, is to abandon. In answer to the rebuttal that work continues, albeit at a slower pace, I'd concede that the abandonment is therefore not total. But, DTV has quite deliberately left some of us in the lurch.
> 
> The aggravating part is that, meanwhile, they pretend ignorance of the situation. A frank apology would have mollified me several months ago. But, in my mind, they've now crossed the moral boundary of the territory of deception. It's unlikely that I will ever again have any confidence in any claim or statement they make. And, I will eagerly jump ship at the first potentially feasible opportunity. I formerly recommended their service to others and believe that I'm responsible for tipping several decisions in their favor. I now recommend against them, on purely moral grounds. I'd rather thave a snowy picture than be lied to. I simply will not reward those who take, or try to take, advantage of me. I suspect that many others feel likewise.
> 
> Cheers,


See, I told you my statement would tick someone off  In all seriousness, I agree with you... to a point. I don't discount the problems that you and others are having. However, no system is perfect. And no system has all of its bugs fixed. When a bug pops up one question that is always asked is "is it even worth fixing." I've worked on many systems where we've left bugs alone simply because the danger of introducing new problems by putting in a fix outweighed the benefits of getting rid of the original problem. I'm not saying that's what's happening here. I agree that, based on posts I've read on this forum that very serious problems persist (we've had lots of discussions as to what we believe the nature of these problems really are). The real issue, I believe, is the methodology (or lack thereof) followed by DirecTV. I get the sense that their testing protocol, e.g., is laughably bad. In that environment you're going to end up with what DirecTV has. Until they fix that environment the problems will, I believe, persist. I'm certainly not trying to excuse it, but I'm starting to think that, given what I believe is the horrible development environment (are there negative SEI levels?) at DirecTV, this is the best that the R15 will be.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

I wasn't ticked off, but remarks of the sort represented by "no system is perfect" are apt to take me there.  There's _no_ approximation of perfection in sight for the R-15.

As to SEI levels, you're too late. I already have a groundbreaking paper under review for the SEI's 17th Annual Int'l Process Management Conference. The paper discusses my discovery of negative SEI process maturity levels, citing DTV and the R-15 as the main examples.

As to prospects of improvement, I made essentially the same claim about 11 months ago. But, at that time, my claim then-novel was hailed with derisive put downs. Soon thereafter, I left the forum. More recently, I returned and restated my claim. Most readers who commented took it quite seriously. And, nothing has subsequently occurred to change my mind. I hope everyone likes the behavior of their R-15 because it's not likely to change much. Some defects will be moved from very active program regions to less active regions, resulting in some improvement to reliability. But, the overall defect density is unlikely to improve. As you write, there's even a small chance that it will actually degrade.

Cheers,

P.S. We're told that DTV developers visit these forums. You might do well to define sophisticated terms such as "protocol," for their benefit. Using that term in the context of human-enacted processes may not be a usage familiar to such readers.

Cheers,


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

wbmccarty said:


> I wasn't ticked off, but remarks of the sort represented by "no system is perfect" are apt to take me there.  There's _no_ approximation of perfection in sight for the R-15.
> 
> As to SEI levels, you're too late. I already have a groundbreaking paper under review for the SEI's 17th Annual Int'l Process Management Conference. The paper discusses my discovery of negative SEI process maturity levels, citing DTV and the R-15 as the main examples.
> 
> ...


My only defense is that I wasn't on this forum 11 months ago. I didn't want to overstate the "no s/w system is perfect" notion either. While that's true, I have to agree with you that the development methodology followed by DirecTV for the R15 is horribly bad. Considering I work for one of the handful of SEI level 5 companies (or at least the subsidiary that I work for is level 5), I'm particularly sensitive to bad methodology. Especially since my job for the last handful of years was, among other things, to act as an enforcer for our standards (making modifications to those standards as necessary). Attempt to pull the kind of stuff DirecTV has with the development of the R15 where I work and you'll have your head handed to you (by me).


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

Well I hope that in the next update they include the ability to add characters like () @ : and so on when doing a search on the R15 and it also would be nice if "The" would be moved to the end of titles, fo example "The Simpson's" should be, "Simpson's, The". Also since the HR20 got dual live buffers, think the R15 might be able too?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

dodge boy said:


> Well I hope that in the next update they include the ability to add characters like () @ : and so on when doing a search on the R15 and it also would be nice if "The" would be moved to the end of titles, fo example "The Simpson's" should be, "Simpson's, The". Also since the HR20 got dual live buffers, think the R15 might be able too?


To be honest, I believe we're going to start seeing some functional updates in the next couple s/w releases. I have no inside knowledge, but 17 years as a s/w developer gives me some inkling that they're at that point. Up until this past s/w release their main focus has been on putting out fires (that's always priority #1 with any new product). Following that they worked on stability issues. That's generally priority #2. Generally priority #3 includes functional enhancements. Looks like they're following that pattern - or they have up until now. I gather that from the updates made to the HR20. I don't have that machine, but based on what others have written on this forum you get a sense of the improvements made on that platform.

Couple notes on all this:

1) I don't believe the fact that the HR20 has gotten many of these updates is any reflection on it being the "preferred" box for DirecTV. I don't think they're showing favoritism, and I would guard against thinking that that's a sign that DirecTV is no longer supporting the R15. It just seems to me that the HR20 became stabilized alot faster than the R15. There are lots of reasons why that may be - but the fact that the HR20 is getting these updates now, to me, is a sign that DirecTV believes that it's a relatively stable platform.

2) I know there are many out there that would argue that DirecTV has not delivered on items #1 (putting out fires) and #2 (stability). I'm not about to downplay the issues that they're having. However, you have to ask yourself "how does DirecTV perceive this?" In my mind they see the R15 as now being stable. Whether it really is or not is, in one sense, totally irrelevent.

3) I don't believe the change to the search functionality (that you describe) is tops on their list. I would look to what they did with the HR20 as a cue on what they're probably planning to do with the R15. Not that they'll be parallel, necessarily, but I think it gives some notion of what they're planning on doing with the R15. Whether the will implement on the R15 what they did on the HR20 will depend, partly, on how easily it can be done. They're both totally different platforms, and changes made to one won't necessarily transfer easily to the other.


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## Mrpalmer420 (Jan 9, 2007)

dodge boy said:


> Also since the HR20 got dual live buffers, think the R15 might be able too?


Wait a dang minute. The HR20 got DLB. When did this happen. this makes me very excited. I believe that whatever the HR20 gets the R15 will follow.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Mrpalmer420 said:


> Wait a dang minute. The HR20 got DLB. When did this happen. this makes me very excited. I believe that whatever the HR20 gets the R15 will follow.


The HR20 does not have DLB


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

jpl said:


> I know there are many out there that would argue that DirecTV has not delivered on items #1 (putting out fires) and #2 (stability). I'm not about to downplay the issues that they're having. However, you have to ask yourself "how does DirecTV perceive this?" In my mind they see the R15 as now being stable. Whether it really is or not is, in one sense, totally irrelevent.


FWIW, I concur in that assessment. As a result, I have to consider that your larger argument also may be on target.

Cheers,


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

The part you all are missing.. (at least in the later half of the posts)..

Is that even though the R15 is "under" DirecTV control.
It is being built by a different team then the HR20...

So there are definently "other" factors that come into play with that type of scenerio... then just a preference over one or another.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The part you all are missing.. Is that even though the R15 is "under" DirecTV control. It is being built by a different team then the HR20...


It's not obvious that the difference actually is relevant. Certainly, I can think of a variety of _potential_ relevancies. But, I don't think we have information directly supporting the existence of any of them. Am I missing facts in evidence?

Cheers,


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## boiker (Feb 8, 2007)

dodge boy said:


> Well I hope that in the next update they include the ability to add characters like () @ : and so on when doing a search on the R15 and it also would be nice if "The" would be moved to the end of titles, fo example "The Simpson's" should be, "Simpson's, The". Also since the HR20 got dual live buffers, think the R15 might be able too?


and to build on this. Why can't we type out show names with the remote number pad, like when texting with a cell phone?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The part you all are missing.. (at least in the later half of the posts)..
> 
> Is that even though the R15 is "under" DirecTV control.
> It is being built by a different team then the HR20...
> ...


Couple issues with what you wrote. First, and maybe my assumptions are incorrect, but I would imagine that since DirecTV is the real customer for both s/w product lines, wouldn't they be the ones driving the requirements? In most s/w shops it isn't the development teams that determine which problems get fixed - it's what the customer(s) deem as needing to be fixed. I would imagine that both development teams aren't operating in isolation, doing their own things. The direction on what to fix first has to come from somewhere, right? And that would be the customer - in this case DirecTV. Then again, maybe DirecTV really does have two totally separate development regimes - two groups working in total isolation - in that case then things are worse there than I would have imagined. It's one thing to do double and triple maintenance, but to do all that development in isolation of what the other groups are doing is a horrible practice.

Second, I've written in several posts that I believe I understand why DirecTV dropped TiVo and came out with their own set of DVRs. And that, essentially, comes down to control. The ultimate goal being a consistent architecture. I still believe that's the case - and there are lots of very valid reasons for wanting to move in that direction. Having two totally seperate development regimes (i.e. the R15 team not only doing their own thing, but not communicating with the HR20 team such that they're on the same page for fixes and enhancements) runs counter to that goal. Because I believe that they want all of the units to be on the same page, functionally speaking, then I would think it would be in their best interest to have both DVRs function exactly the same way, as far as is technically feasible (e.g. one unit may have fewer hard limits due to issues with the architecture of one box over the other). I can see one lagging behind the other -- i.e. if the HR20 is ready to move forward with an enhancement but the R15 is quiet there yet, then sure move forward with the enhancements to the HR20, but I would then expect them to follow suit with the R15. One example of this - gamelounge. It's currently available on some of their latest receivers, but not all -- yet. And still the goal is to make it available to all of them at some point in the very near future.

Again, this is my assessment of what's going on at DirecTV based on: 1) professional experience in s/w development and 2) what I've seen come from them over the past couple years.


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## wbmccarty (Apr 28, 2006)

One possible explanation for having two groups, which I happen to find plausible, is an action-experiment. DTV intends to determine whether future software development should be done in-house or out-house (pun intended).

Cheers,


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

The HR20 is written and coded by developers that are in LA...
It is truely developed/designed and maintaned primarily by DirecTV employees.

The R15, not so. It is done by NDS... While under the big "picture" for now... it is still an "outside" vendor... It does get specifications, and there is much more control by DirecTV... it is done by a completely different team then the HR20 development.

So that relationship/model has introduced it own dynamics which adds to the "differences"

While they do communicate... they are different architectures underneath...
The HR20 is absolutley not an HD version of the R15... As I have said before, even the GUI's are fairly similar, and some of the "functions" are the same.. They are two very different systems.

So just because they have a fix in the HR20... doesn't mean that "fix" will also work on the R15, and vice-versa.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 is written and coded by developers that are in LA...
> It is truely developed/designed and maintaned primarily by DirecTV employees.
> 
> The R15, not so. It is done by NDS... While under the big "picture" for now... it is still an "outside" vendor... It does get specifications, and there is much more control by DirecTV... it is done by a completely different team then the HR20 development.
> ...


One more posting on this and then I'll let it drop. First, I would agree that it's not going to be one-for-one. That's just not practical given the fact that the two platforms are architecturally different (why they would pick two different archictectures... well, that's an issue for another thread). However, I do believe a couple things are true. First, that DirecTV believes that the R15 is now a stable platform, and as such we're going to start seeing real functional enhancements (e.g. of a recent such enhancement - the record once/record series break-out on the record screen). I think we're going to start seeing more enhancements now that they perceive the product to be largely stable.

Second, even though I don't believe that the enhancements will be one-for-one (as in: they just added this to the HR20 so it's going to be the next item on the R15 -- I don't believe that to be the case), any changes made to one indicates that DirecTV sees that upgrade in functionality as being important. Let's say that they make one change to the HR20 that I think they should make overall - let's say they add an SL manager off the main quick menu (not the prioritizer, but a legitimate manager that let's me update my SLs without having to have future episodes set to record like it is today). That would indicate to me that DirecTV sees that piece of functionality to be an important enough enhancement that it got implemented. That means that that piece of functionality is more likely to turn up in the R15, in my opinion.

Not that every change made to one will make it's way over to the other, but if you look at basic functionality as individual entities, then there are some that are deemed important enough to implement and others that are not. The fact that one chunk of functionality is added to one DVR indicates, to me, that they see that chunk of functionality as falling within their overall architecture.


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 does not have DLB


I thought I read somewhere on here it has DLB or is soon to have DLB, if this is not true sorry for my confusion 
Totally my mistake I mis-remembered or mis read a thread in the CE forum, my screw up totally, no DLB as of yet on the HR20.


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