# Anyone ever had a dish stolen?



## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

Hello all,

4 years ago, I moved into a new duplex, and my landlord refused to let me do a proper install of my transplanted Dish 500. Attached is a photo of my solution: The Porch Dish, which had lived in place for 4 trouble-free years since the move…

…until some *******s carried off all 75 pounds of it (cables, SW21, et al) in a daring 7-9PM burglary last night, without making a sound (at least that we could hear whilst watching a DVD on the other side of the living room window).

Sidebar -- there was a previous theft attempt about three weeks ago – IN BROAD DAYLIGHT – but a neighbor spotted the hoodlum, gave a shout, and he took off. I gotta assume it was the same meth-addict who just HAD to have a Dish 500 for the holidays, ignoring both the Superdish and the DirecTV unit across the cul-de-sac.

I haven’t gotten to do much research on the replacement process beause of the weekend and the coming holidays, but I’d like toss out a couple of questions to anyone else on the board this may have happened to so I can mull it over till everyone opens back up on Wednesday the 26th.

What kind of gouging did Dish try to give you for a replacement dish? I’d owned this one outright since 2000, and don’t plan on upgrading any other equipment or programming. Did you go through Dish or a local dish dealer? I didn’t bother to talk to a CSR about replacement gear when I called in to put my account on vacation (between the hour, my anger, and the CSR’s charming off-continent accent, I wasn’t mentally prepared.)

I haven’t talked to my insurance carrier yet, but could the replacement dish (and more importantly, the labor) be covered under a renter’s policy? I filed a police report, and I gotta say I’ve never seen a less-interested officer. Quote: “We’ll likely never find who did it, but maybe they wrecked their back hauling it off. Ha ha.”

I think I can talk my landlord into a proper install now, I’ve got a pretty good rep with him, and a lean clean scheme to minimize holes and maximize aesthetics.

BTW, I was actually considering dropping Dish altogether and switching back to cable (considering how much less I watch the service now as opposed to 5 years ago). But our area CableOne packages lack the critical BBC America and TENExtasy, so I’m compelled to stick with Dish in one form or another.

Sorry for the ramble. I’m coping.

Happy Holidays!


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## mengel (Oct 27, 2007)

unclezippy said:


> Hello all,
> 
> 4 years ago, I moved into a new duplex, and my landlord refused to let me do a proper install of my transplanted Dish 500. Attached is a photo of my solution: The Porch Dish, which had lived in place for 4 trouble-free years since the move&#8230;
> 
> ...


 I'm sorry to hear about your loss. However, there's not much you can do to stop people from stealing, if they are determined enough. That's a pretty cool setup however, I like a dish in a pail! Do another one, and get one of those fake rock covers to put over it. Or if you are creative and want to save a bunch of money, go by a construction site, and ask them for any left over TYVEK laying around. Setup another dish in a pail, get it working, cover it with the Tyvek kind of propped in the form of a heavy rock (build a cardboar form), and spraypaint it like a rock, and add your address, and name on it to llok like it belongs! If it looks good enough, they won't even attempt to try to lift it, as they will assume it's a heavy rock. Something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/294886-Large-Ar...ryZ10034QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

unclezippy said:


> Hello all,
> 
> 4 years ago, I moved into a new duplex, and my landlord refused to let me do a proper install of my transplanted Dish 500. Attached is a photo of my solution: The Porch Dish, which had lived in place for 4 trouble-free years since the move&#8230;
> 
> ...


Given that Dish tells customers who move to leave the dish in place and only take receivers, logic would dictate that they wouldn't be all that put out to replace your dish for you.

Of course, when dealing with ANY service provider in this day and age, logic need not apply.

PS: How pathetic is it to steal someone's dish?


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Of course being a genius the thief may be thinking all they needed is the dish to hook up to their TV to get satellite TV.


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> Of course being a genius the thief may be thinking all they needed is the dish to hook up to their TV to get satellite TV.


OMG! I never looked at it that way! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Gilitar (Aug 1, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> Of course being a genius the thief may be thinking all they needed is the dish to hook up to their TV to get satellite TV.


I'm willing to bet this is the case.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> Of course being a genius the thief may be thinking all they needed is the dish to hook up to their TV to get satellite TV.


Those would be the same people who buy HD sets and plug it in and ? Nitwits abound.

Rich


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

I think that's a bit over the top to call people nitwits because they don't undestand a service.

I know doctors who can't install a simple program on their computers but they're geniuses. 

Just because someone doesn't care about the technology doesn't mean they're a nitwit. It means up until that time they had no reason to know it. And if you say you've never bought something without realizing you had to buy something else to make it work, well ..... you know.

To the O/P I like what you did with it. That's a great idea. lol.

The people that did my install didn't care much about it. They tried to talk their way out of installing at all, until I finally just told them to put the pole mount in. They did, and didn't bolt a single footplate to the ground. You could walk by my deck and push the dish out of alignment easily.

I'm sure someone will come vandalize it eventually. But I don't have time to do much about it yet. Home Owners Association here doesn't like the idea of adding my dish to a 4 unit building. (i'm in a condo)


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## Cocoatreat (May 16, 2006)

i'm sorry for what happened to you....but people will do stupid things....i have lived in miami, fla for over 14 years. i took a job in another state and was gone for 18 mos. my dish was left untouched. however, when i moved back in 2003.. i took a job on the night shift. and late one saturday night at 0203 my dish was stolen ( the last time recorded on my dvr). the dish was on my barrel tile roof!! it was a dangerous job in the dead of the night....so i think that they were just teens in the neighborhood on a dare. it sucked, tho... i made a police report.. but that just simply goes nowhere. i went on ebay and bought another dish & so far... it has been ok.....but ya never know when kids will do something stupid again......


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## crazypat (Mar 10, 2006)

If you check out Fleabay You can replace it all for under $60.00 or less including shipping. (That doesn't include the bucket and cement.)


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## Gilitar (Aug 1, 2004)

FastnoNOC said:


> I
> I know doctors who can't install a simple program on their computers but they're geniuses.


There are many many doctors that are intelligent, but lack common sense. I prefer to know how the world around me works.

OP, I would check out Ebay as the poster above recommends.


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## akhicks (Dec 11, 2007)

if it makes you feel better Unclezippy the jerk that stole your dish cant get any $$ out of it they arent worth anything only about $20 or so. call a local retailer and see if they will sell you a dish (no ebay or waiting for ups).


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## satlover25 (Jan 3, 2006)

I would suggest writing to the Dish ceo email address on Christmas Eve and tell them your dilemma. You may get a ceo rep that's in the Christmas spirit and replace the items you need. It shouldn't be too costly for them and it makes for good PR.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Here's a similar install that I did several years ago. Of course, being on the second floor makes these dishes a bit more secure. 
http://www.pbase.com/rking401/image/214564


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

FastnoNOC said:


> I think that's a bit over the top to call people nitwits because they don't undestand a service.


That was me being nice. Did you know that the Google Toolbar has a spell checker built into it? Kind of hard to take someone serious when they don't "undestand"(see your original post) how to spell check a document.



> I know doctors who can't install a simple program on their computers but they're geniuses.


Think of them as being uni-dimensional people, not geniuses. What makes a doctor a genius, a degree? My wife has three, one masters, and she is far from a genius.



> Just because someone doesn't care about the technology doesn't mean they're a nitwit. It means up until that time they had no reason to know it. And if you say you've never bought something without realizing you had to buy something else to make it work, well ..... you know.


I never said I didn't make mistakes. Those nitwits who bought all those HD TVs without doing their homework caused Costco to change their return policy. OK, I pondered for a second or two. Maybe nitwit is the wrong word. Stupid fits much better. I waited for years to have HD in my home because I needed to know more. And I did my homework and I am still learning.

I know a lot of doctors, medical doctors, vets, and PHDs. I have yet to meet one that I would consider a "genius". Carl Sagan was a genius. All others pale by comparison. At least in the 20th century.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Gilitar said:


> There are many many doctors that are intelligent, but lack common sense. I prefer to know how the world around me works.


If you believe that intelligence is the ability to learn, read on.

Lacking common sense precludes anyone from being a true "genius". Some of the dopiest people I have met have doctorates.

Quick example: "Hey Rich, could you check this extension cord for me, it doesn't work? I was trimming my shrubs and it just stopped working." This from a guy with two doctorates. Can you guess why the cord did not function properly? He also brought me the hedge trimmer to check, instead of plugging the short cord into an outlet and checking it himself. That is not ignorance, which is forgivable, but stupidity. True story.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

unclezippy said:


> 4 years ago, I moved into a new duplex, and my landlord refused to let me do a proper install of my transplanted Dish 500. Attached is a photo of my solution: The Porch Dish, which had lived in place for 4 trouble-free years since the move&#8230;
> 
> &#8230;until some *******s carried off all 75 pounds of it (cables, SW21, et al) in a daring 7-9PM burglary last night, without making a sound (at least that we could hear whilst watching a DVD on the other side of the living room window).


Doesn't your homeowners insurance cover that? Or doesn't Dish have a Protection Plan as D* does?

Rich


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

TBoneit said:


> Of course being a genius the thief may be thinking all they needed is the dish to hook up to their TV to get satellite TV.


You mean that won't work?


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

Richard King said:


> Here's a similar install that I did several years ago. Of course, being on the second floor makes these dishes a bit more secure.
> http://www.pbase.com/rking401/image/214564


Oh Richard,

You didn't even cut the tie straps down!


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## GuNrunR (Aug 7, 2007)

don't see too many dishes stolen, since they aren't really worth that much. But in NYC i have been to several service calls for stolen dp34 switches and dpp44 switches. Sometimes i suspect the building supers because the roof stairwells are alarmed, but hey I just replace the switches and thats it!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mr-Rick said:


> Oh Richard,
> 
> You didn't even cut the tie straps down!


Those are wire ties. And they are indoor wire ties. Go to an electrical supply house, not Home Depot or Lowes, and purchase black wire ties in your desired lengths. Those white ties are going to fall apart on you when you least expect it. Like during a wind storm. I think you can order them from the Granger catalog on line too. The black ties last for years.

After the ties are installed, the ends are supposed to be snipped off. Don't want to be poking the kiddies in the eye.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Who, in God's name, would be stupid enough to steal a dish?

Rich



GuNrunR said:


> don't see too many dishes stolen, since they aren't really worth that much. But in NYC i have been to several service calls for stolen dp34 switches and dpp44 switches. Sometimes i suspect the building supers because the roof stairwells are alarmed, but hey I just replace the switches and thats it!


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## Papote (Oct 4, 2005)

Man I would like to see someone get away trying to steal one of my 2 5 footers... :lol:


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Those are wire ties. And they are indoor wire ties. Go to an electrical supply house, not Home Depot or Lowes, and purchase black wire ties in your desired lengths. Those white ties are going to fall apart on you when you least expect it. Like during a wind storm. I think you can order them from the Granger catalog on line too. The black ties last for years.
> 
> After the ties are installed, the ends are supposed to be snipped off. Don't want to be poking the kiddies in the eye.
> 
> Rich


Any color is fine, but they MUST be UV rated to last outdoors. Black is the best because more of the UV protectant can be used without altering the color. They are sold at NAPA and better electrical supply houses and are in smaller packages because of cost. They do last for years instead of weeks especially in the sun-belt areas of the country.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Wow... a tough audience, everyone's a critic. :lol: Actually, I used to keep all sorts of cable ties with me. These folks were in an apartment and were only going to be there for 12 months and the ties I used would certainly last 12 months. :lol: The install was done in 2001 and they never had problems in the 12 months they were there.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Just trying to be helpful as I learned the hard way and damaged an expensive harness for a Furono radar unit on the family boat due to cheap ties


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

davring said:


> Any color is fine, but they MUST be UV rated to last outdoors. Black is the best because more of the UV protectant can be used without altering the color. They are sold at NAPA and better electrical supply houses and are in smaller packages because of cost. They do last for years instead of weeks especially in the sun-belt areas of the country.


I was a practicing electrician in a chemical plant when they first came out. No different colors at first. All that off white color. Then the problems with cracking began outdoors and the black ties were introduced. When they were first introduced they were called "wire tys". We dumped all the white ones and used the black ties indoors and outdoors because of the heated piping all over the place.

They were the greatest thing since wire nuts. No more "serving wire" (don't ask). God, I hated doing that.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

davring said:


> Just trying to be helpful as I learned the hard way and damaged an expensive harness for a Furono radar unit on the family boat due to cheap ties


I know that there are wire ties that can be used to hold electrical heat tracing wiring in place and I think there is a marine tie, too. That is an item that went from a curiosity to a staple of life in a very short time.

Rich


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

Update 12-24-07: After 3 unsucessful calls to the Third World (aka: E* CSRs) and 3 more unsatisfactory calls to local Dish dealers, I was driven to send this message(excerpted) to [email protected] the morning of Xmas Eve:

I have been a Dish Network customer for over 7 years, I spend about $100 a
month for programming, and have overall been pretty satisfied with the
service...

... UNTIL SOME GRINCH STOLE OUR DISH RIGHT OFF OUR HOUSE TWO NIGHTS AGO!! Switch, cables, brackets, everything... gone.

Needless to say, my family is very upset. And sadly, my attempts to get
the replacement process underway have not gone well; 
arranging new equipment and installation has been an extremely frustrating experience.

I can't seem to explain my situation to Dish CSRs in any way that convinces
me they understand either what happened or what I want/need. (By the way,
we Dish Network customers really don't like dealing with out-sourced,
off-continent, English-as-a-fourth-language CSRs.) I DON'T want or need
new services, HD programming or 4 new tuners or a new DVR, and I can't seem
to make that point clear to Dish CSRs no matter how many times I say it.

I just need a new Dish 500 and a 30-45-minute install job by a competent
professional. That's all.

I haven't had any better luck with the local Dish dealers.
Either they're "out-of-stock", or "it'll be 5-or-6-weeks before we can get
to you" or worst of all, "it'll cost you
(insert-large-percentage-of-weekly-paycheck-here)."

Comparision shopping: I called DirecTV and they offered me a full deluxe install by
Friday the 28th at NO charge. And my local CableOne office said they could
have their whole digital package up and running by 4PM the day after Xmas.

It's bad enough that some meth-addict needed my dish to trade for drugs this
Xmas, but the more I deal with Dish (and affiliates), the more of a problem
it's becoming to get my system back in service.

Can you help this LONG-time customer? I can't use your service if I
don't have a dish, and I don't feel I should be forced to jump through fiery
hoops to replace it.


Early result: 2 e-mail replies AND a voice mail from a pleasant young woman from Echostar Executive Communications at 5:15 PM CST Christmas-freakin-Eve. I missed her call, but she assured me that she would call again on the 26th, and things would be handled.

I have no idea what she has in mind, what it will cost me or when I'll actually see any results, but this qualifies as half-a-Christmas-miracle in my book.

I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

_Early result: 2 e-mail replies AND a voice mail from a pleasant young woman from Echostar Executive Communications at 5:15 PM CST Christmas-freakin-Eve. I missed her call, but she assured me that she would call again on the 26th, and things would be handled.

I have no idea what she has in mind, what it will cost me or when I'll actually see any results, but this qualifies as half-a-Christmas-miracle in my book.

I'll let you know how it turns out._

Wednesday Night, bedtime...

Boned by E*, I don't know why I expected anything else...

NO call as promised from the aforementioned pleasant young woman...

NO response to the voice mail I left for her 5 hours ago...

NO e-mails, no incoming messages on the answering machine...

I suppose I should give her the benefit of the doubt that comes with the typical workday-after-Xmas scenario, but if unclezippy ain't a happy pappy by this time tomorrow night (Thursday, 10:30 PM CST), it's adios, E*!


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

I have to admit, I think I see your point. I can see E*'s point too but I would think it'd be something they'd work with you as a customer as long as you're in good standing. 7 years is a long time to not get any consideration.

I'm interested in how this turns out.  I've got a 722 and a 625 here, and the same in my home in Arkansas. I'd be really bummed if after a few years spending $260.00 per month in service I couldn't get some assistance in the event of something like that or my boxes broke. The dish on my Arkansas place is roof mounted so i'm not worried there.

Make sure you follow up with your results. 

Until I read this forum I had no idea people had these types of issues. But I will say this, based on the years I was with DirecTV you aren't going to see much better there. I can't speak for that exact issue of course, but their general attitude didn't seem much better when i had a receiver issue.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

When (if) you get the dish back I would suggest mounting it to something more substantial than a small bucket like that. Try the 5 gallon variety next time. At least then the thief will have to work a bit harder to haul it away. I have also attached dishes to 24" x 24" paving stones that weigh in at about 80 pounds. This would also be a challenge for the thief and probably would require some tools since they really couldn't just toss it in the back of a car assembled.


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## Sandman (Sep 23, 2002)

unclezippy said:


> _ .
> 
> NO call as promised from the aforementioned pleasant young woman...
> 
> ...


_

On the occasions I had dealing with E through [email protected] my experience has been if you are available when they call everything works fine, if you are not available and they leave a message that they will call again or you leave a voice messaage..then you can forget about it, it never happens

Bob_


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## Aransay (Jun 19, 2006)

afish no
but a dish arm and an lnb yes and i was bya sky emxico isntlaler


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

Richard King said:


> When (if) you get the dish back I would suggest mounting it to something more substantial than a small bucket like that. Try the 5 gallon variety next time. At least then the thief will have to work a bit harder to haul it away. I have also attached dishes to 24" x 24" paving stones that weigh in at about 80 pounds. This would also be a challenge for the thief and probably would require some tools since they really couldn't just toss it in the back of a car assembled.


Small bucket? It held an entire sack of cement and weighed 75 pounds finished. I couldn't even lift it by myself (and I'm not tiny), I had to scoot it out to the porch on a piece of cardboard after I built it. Even rotating it to aim took some effort.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

unclezippy said:


> Small bucket? It held an entire sack of cement and weighed 75 pounds finished. I couldn't even lift it by myself (and I'm not tiny), I had to scoot it out to the porch on a piece of cardboard after I built it. Even rotating it to aim took some effort.


:lol: It doesn't look that big. Obviously it's bigger than it looks. I "think" the 5 gallon ones that I did in the picture weighed in at well over 100 pounds when they were filled with cement. You might want to look into the paving stone that I suggested also. It's 24" x 24" X 2 or 3" if I recall correctly. Mount the dish foot to anchors in the paving stone and it's pretty much there to stay. The size makes it a real challenge to move around. I have mounted them on flat roofs and it takes some effort to get them in place.


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## Larry the satellite guy (Mar 27, 2007)

I do trouble calls here in Toledo and have had dishes and lnb's stolen.
I can you several suggestions.Call in and talk a tech support person,not a non -english speaking csr.They follow a script.Tell them your problem,they may replace your dish if you have the dhp.It's only $5.99 and you can cancel it anytime.You might be able to get it done that way.You could also threaten to cancel.mention DTV and they might transfer you to Winback.Which is D networks give away people.They will give the farm to keep customers.Another idea would be e-bay.but you'll have to aim it yourself.All these depend on several factors,if your under a contract etc. but you should be able to get it done.Worst comes to worst hang up and try another operator at D network.You might be able to swing it without paying $99 for a existing customer install.


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

Echostar Executive communications got back to me last Thursday and we had a nice chat.

Results of that conversation:

Free install of free replacement Dish 500 in new (well-above-ground) locale this coming Thursday AM targeting a tight appointment window. I was also promised a supervisor or a "senior tech" (as I firmly requested no day laborers or cowboys on hint of instant cancellation).

Also, three months of free premium programming for my troubles.

When asked, she stated that the subject of stolen dishes is one that virtually never comes up. 

It's all up to the installer now -- if they're on-time, on-the-ball and don't waste my whole morning or drill a dozen unnecessary holes in my house, I'll be happy...


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Congratulations. I am sure it will work out well once it's all done.


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## satlover25 (Jan 3, 2006)

Congrats!! CEODish is one of the two main reasons I have been with Dish since 1996. Happy New Year everyone and remember...2008 is the year of YOU!...and me.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Good for you!

Rich



unclezippy said:


> Echostar Executive communications got back to me last Thursday and we had a nice chat.
> 
> Results of that conversation:
> 
> ...


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## Artwood (May 30, 2006)

What should you tell DISH if your lanlord confiscates your DISH?


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

I'd tell the police who stole it.


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

Artwood said:
 

> What should you tell DISH if your landlord confiscates your DISH?


My landlord was happy to give his blessing to a new roof-area install, especially after seeing how upset ALL his tenants were because of the theft.


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

unclezippy said:


> Echostar Executive communications got back to me last Thursday and we had a nice chat.
> 
> Results of that conversation:
> 
> ...


Simply amazing... I've been leasing chevy vehicles for a while now. And should my vehicle ever get stolen, I will insist GM replaces it for free or a nominal fee... After all, I pay them plenty! Then I will see if I get free gasoline for three months for my troubles. Heck if they would produce a car that couldn't be hotwired, I wouldn't be in this situation!!

That's what it sounds like to me. If one of my customers calls with a stolen dish issue, (which in 10 years has NEVER happened), he/she would be quoted $50 for a dish 500 with any lnb needed and $99 to install it somewhere else on the house and get it out of a bucket. If that person balked, see the first paragraph.


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

Mr-Rick said:


> Simply amazing... I've been leasing chevy vehicles for a while now. And should my vehicle ever get stolen, I will insist GM replaces it for free or a nominal fee... After all, I pay them plenty! Then I will see if I get free gasoline for three months for my troubles. Heck if they would produce a car that couldn't be hotwired, I wouldn't be in this situation!!
> 
> That's what it sounds like to me. If one of my customers calls with a stolen dish issue, (which in 10 years has NEVER happened), he/she would be quoted $50 for a dish 500 with any lnb needed and $99 to install it somewhere else on the house and get it out of a bucket. If that person balked, see the first paragraph.


I really have to side with the OP on this one for one primary reason: E* hands out brand new dishes/LNB's etc. hand over fist to every new subscriber... same with the premium promotions. And, better still, what do they tell you when you move? Leave the dish behind.

All of this tells me Dish puts little or no value on the dish itself. So, in a very rare instance where a dish gets stolen, why not give him a freebie? They hand them out like condoms to junior high-schoolers as it is.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

This is one of those opportunities to go "above the call of duty". Is it Dish Network's responsibility to secure and insure the equipment? A loss claim for theft is something that should be against the homeowner's or renter's insurance policy. It is an item stolen from the customer's home.

While dishes do seem to be easy to come by (usually with a commitment attached) it seems reaching to _expect_ the satellite company to keep a promise they have not made.

That being said, if DISH comes to the rescue and helps out a customer it should be seen as a bonus - not an entitlement. Entitlements come from the contract. If anyone can find in the contract where E* is responsible for the security and replacement of dishes and other equipment then we can talk entitlements. Until then, don't expect free-bees - but appreciate them when they come.


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

James Long said:


> This is one of those opportunities to go "above the call of duty". Is it Dish Network's responsibility to secure and insure the equipment? A loss claim for theft is something that should be against the homeowner's or renter's insurance policy. It is an item stolen from the customer's home.
> 
> While dishes do seem to be easy to come by (usually with a commitment attached) it seems reaching to _expect_ the satellite company to keep a promise they have not made.
> 
> That being said, if DISH comes to the rescue and helps out a customer it should be seen as a bonus - not an entitlement. Entitlements come from the contract. If anyone can find in the contract where E* is responsible for the security and replacement of dishes and other equipment then we can talk entitlements. Until then, don't expect free-bees - but appreciate them when they come.


IAWTC. He's not 'entitled' to a freebie, but it's an easy opportunity to extend goodwill and get some promo through word of mouth, too.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mr-Rick said:


> Heck if they would produce a car that couldn't be hotwired, I wouldn't be in this situation!!


GM does produce cars that cannot be hot wired. Cadillacs, Buicks and Pontiacs. All three come with computer chips embedded in the keys. You cannot start one of these cars without the proper key. I don't know for sure about the Chevrolets, but I would imagine the new ones have computer chip keys.

This isn't 1960. No matter what you see on TV. Hot wiring a new car is damn near impossible. I know you cannot pick the locks on a Caddy, door, ignition or trunk. Took a locksmith over two hours to break into my 95 DeVille on July fourth about 6 or 7 years ago. Locked everything in the trunk. Two hours, $200 and a lot of work. He had to go thru the passenger rear window to do it. Fortunately, there was a set of keys under the front seat or he would have had to drill out the trunk locking mechanism.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

All providers would undoubtedly install a new dish free of charge to keep subs. I called D* not too long ago and asked about a situation like this and was told that they will do just about anything reasonable to keep subs. Seems like their business is based on the number of subscribers, no? No subs, no business.

Rich



James Long said:


> This is one of those opportunities to go "above the call of duty". Is it Dish Network's responsibility to secure and insure the equipment? A loss claim for theft is something that should be against the homeowner's or renter's insurance policy. It is an item stolen from the customer's home.
> 
> While dishes do seem to be easy to come by (usually with a commitment attached) it seems reaching to _expect_ the satellite company to keep a promise they have not made.
> 
> That being said, if DISH comes to the rescue and helps out a customer it should be seen as a bonus - not an entitlement. Entitlements come from the contract. If anyone can find in the contract where E* is responsible for the security and replacement of dishes and other equipment then we can talk entitlements. Until then, don't expect free-bees - but appreciate them when they come.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

James Long said:


> A loss claim for theft is something that should be against the homeowner's or renter's insurance policy. It is an item stolen from the customer's home.


I believe (could be wrong about this) that most home insurance policies have a deductible. I think mine is $500. Not sure, have to check.

Rich

Yup, just checked. $500 deductible, that is for a homeowner's policy. I would imagine a renter's policy is about the same.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

You make it sound like he's a crook. He did nothing wrong. Just asked for help and got it. If the sat provider would have hooked his dish up properly in the first place, this would have never happened. What do you find "amazing"?



Mr-Rick said:


> Simply amazing... I've been leasing chevy vehicles for a while now. And should my vehicle ever get stolen, I will insist GM replaces it for free or a nominal fee... After all, I pay them plenty! Then I will see if I get free gasoline for three months for my troubles. Heck if they would produce a car that couldn't be hotwired, I wouldn't be in this situation!!
> 
> That's what it sounds like to me. If one of my customers calls with a stolen dish issue, (which in 10 years has NEVER happened), he/she would be quoted $50 for a dish 500 with any lnb needed and $99 to install it somewhere else on the house and get it out of a bucket. If that person balked, see the first paragraph.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rich584 said:


> If the sat provider would have hooked his dish up properly in the first place, this would have never happened.


What is improper about a bucket mount? They are VERY common in places where penetrating or pole mounts are not allowed (such as apartments and condos).

The theft of his dish wasn't due to the neglect of the installers.


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

James Long said:


> What is improper about a bucket mount? They are VERY common in places where penetrating or pole mounts are not allowed (such as apartments and condos).
> 
> The theft of his dish wasn't due to the neglect of the installers.


IAWTC: I see many ground-level apartments in my simplex with 'bucket mounts'. Apartments, in particular, prefer this method.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

James Long said:


> What is improper about a bucket mount? They are VERY common in places where penetrating or pole mounts are not allowed (such as apartments and condos).
> 
> The theft of his dish wasn't due to the neglect of the installers.


Are they really that common? I ask this out of ignorance.

Ever since I read the first post on this thread I've been looking at apartment complexes and condos and townhouses. Every dish I see is either mounted on the porch railing or on the roofs. I do see ground mounted dishes and would assume they are in a bucket of cement that has been buried. My wife's sisters and mother live or lived in apartments and townhouses in Maryland and the Pittsburgh area, and I never noticed one.

I live in NJ and wouldn't be surprised to find out that each town has regulations governing the placement of dishes. Another permit, more money for the town.

I looked at the pictures of bucketed dishes and I could see a really strong wind slamming those dishes thru the windows facing the balconies.

I've seen some dishes on tree trunks, really thick tree trunks. But never a bucket. I can see this becoming an obsession. I'm already planning to cruise Hillsboro, a town in NJ that rivals the northern suburbs of Baltimore for condo (1 story) and townhouse (2-3 stories) complexes.

Now I have to punch in your coordinates and see where you live. I hope it's not NJ or MD.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

> IAWTC


What does that acronym mean? I'm stumped.



> I see many ground-level apartments in my simplex with 'bucket mounts'. Apartments, in particular, prefer this method.


How are they secured? Can't just sit there. Are they secured to the pad in some manner? I've really never seen one. Don't get out of NJ very much. I'm lookin' tho.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Now I have to punch in your coordinates and see where you live. I hope it's not NJ or MD.


Aw, geez. I bit on that one. Really should have guessed. Good, really good. I chuckled. 

Rich


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> What does that acronym mean? I'm stumped.


IAWTC= I Agree With This Comment



rich584 said:


> How are they secured? Can't just sit there. Are they secured to the pad in some manner? I've really never seen one. Don't get out of NJ very much. I'm lookin' tho.
> 
> Rich


Most of those I've seen here in CenTex are 5-gallon buckets filled with concrete. Those suckers are quite heavy, trust. They'll stand up to most winds shy of hurricane force. I suspect the OP 's dish was pilfered by a group of body-builders suffering from 'roid-rage.

PS: 85-58-06 West could be anywhere from the western section of the lower peninsula of 'that state up north', southward to the gulf.


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

rich584 said:


> You make it sound like he's a crook. He did nothing wrong. Just asked for help and got it.


Mr-Rick, go back and read my first post. All I wanted was for Dish or a local dealer to help me replace my dish at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable amount of time. I got neither. And I resent your inference that I am a lazy crook seeking undeserved entitlement.

The local dealers did NOTHING but jack me around (you're a local dealer, right...?), while all the off-continent CSR's wanted to do was sell me new receivers and services. Restoring my services' status quo was the last thing on their minds, and certainly wasn't an option on any of their script pages.

I asked for Echostar Executive intervention as a last resort to stay with Dish and not have to switch vendors. E* agreed that my complaints were valid, and offered all the assistance I asked for... which BTW is still 2 days away from this writing.

For the record, I am now on my TWELFTH day without Dish Network service, with 2 days more to go. Had I switched over to CableOne, I would have had restored service SIX days ago; Had I switched over to D*, I'd be on my fifth day of new service.

I showed more loyalty to Dish than they had showed to me up to the time Exec Communications intervened. And I think that's worth 3 months of Starz, even if you don't.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bartendress said:


> IAWTC= I Agree With This Comment


Thanx. Was driving me nuttier.


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

rich584 said:


> GM does produce cars that cannot be hot wired. Cadillacs, Buicks and Pontiacs. All three come with computer chips embedded in the keys. You cannot start one of these cars without the proper key. I don't know for sure about the Chevrolets, but I would imagine the new ones have computer chip keys.
> 
> This isn't 1960. No matter what you see on TV. Hot wiring a new car is damn near impossible. I know you cannot pick the locks on a Caddy, door, ignition or trunk. Took a locksmith over two hours to break into my 95 DeVille on July fourth about 6 or 7 years ago. Locked everything in the trunk. Two hours, $200 and a lot of work. He had to go thru the passenger rear window to do it. Fortunately, there was a set of keys under the front seat or he would have had to drill out the trunk locking mechanism.
> 
> Rich


Rich, don't take it literal. I was trying to prove a point. I could have easily used the example of stealing the spare tire underneath or anything else for that matter. Hotwire was just an example.


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

rich584 said:


> You make it sound like he's a crook. He did nothing wrong. Just asked for help and got it. If the sat provider would have hooked his dish up properly in the first place, this would have never happened. What do you find "amazing"?


Don't taunt. I didn't make him sound like a crook.

Amazing? What I find amazing was the thought of an entitlement. The person had his dish stolen and wants DISH to replace it for a nominal fee or FREE. Did DISH steal it? No. Granted the value is too low for an insurance claim. But what is wrong with just biting the bullet and paying to getting it replaced?

James L. says it best. It is an opportunity to extend goodwill. If DISH does it for FREE or free with a 12 month extension, consider it a bonus. But should this be DISH policy that they would offer this service for free?

Interestingly, there is no opportunity for a retailer to offer this free dish replacement for a customer. In other words, DISH would not reimburse the retailer for it and DISH would advise the retailer to get the customer to pay for it. So for him to go to a local dealer for a fast turnaround is impossible (if he wanted it free).

I wonder how a cellular phone company would handle this. My cell phone is stolen and I ask the cell phone company to replace it for free. Unless I have insurance, forget it. But why should I pay? The cellular phone company gives away cell phones for free everyday? I've been a customer for such a long time... Blah Blah Blah.... It doesn't hold water.

But I also subscribe to the fact, it never hurts to ask. If they covered it I would consider myself extremely lucky. I wouldn't expect a thing and certainly would not feel entitled to anything.


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

unclezippy said:


> Mr-Rick, go back and read my first post. All I wanted was for Dish or a local dealer to help me replace my dish at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable amount of time. I got neither. And I resent your inference that I am a lazy crook seeking undeserved entitlement.
> 
> The local dealers did NOTHING but jack me around (you're a local dealer, right...?), while all the off-continent CSR's wanted to do was sell me new receivers and services. Restoring my services' status quo was the last thing on their minds, and certainly wasn't an option on any of their script pages.
> 
> ...


Well you actually insulted yourself as my post did not hint that you were lazy or that you were a crook. Never used those words or others like it. Did I feel that there was some sort of entitlement? Yes. Do I stick with what I said? Yes.

The fact that you had to wait such a long time to get this resolved is the main point. This is where I agree that you should not have to wait this long. Either a local retailer should be able to provide you with a fix or DISH directly.

I am shocked that a local retailer would have to take 5-6 weeks to get to you. NO RETAILER IN THE U.S. is scheduling work 5-6 weeks ahead for standard work. Average turnaround for a new install is 2-3 days here in N.E. Ohio (Actually a bit more with the snowstorm, i.e. weather not due to volume of work). Service work is anywhere between 1-36 hours from the time we get a phone call.

Also strange is that a retailer is out of stock on DISH 500's? How can that be?

And exactly how much did they quote you to do this? You mentioned "it'll cost you
(insert-large-percentage-of-weekly-paycheck-here)."

Now if a retailer did not want to do this for free, I can't blame him/her since there is no avenue for reimbursement from DISH. A retailer that says he can't get to you for 5-6 weeks is BS, and the out-of-stock comments all lead me to believe they didn't want to do this for some reason.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rich584 said:


> Now I have to punch in your coordinates and see where you live. I hope it's not NJ or MD.


What would be wrong with that?

The apartments I used to live in allowed non-penetrating mounts. There were all sorts of variations. Those on the ground floor had buckets ... those above had buckets or some sort of weighted tripod on their balconies. The fun ones were the folks who lived on the wrong side of the building on the third floor. They had 4x4 or bigger posts hanging out from their balconies up at an angle where the dish could see over the rooftop. Really ugly arrangements. I can see why complexes try to outlaw such things.

What is allowed is up to the complex. Some are nicer than others. Few will allow a proper mount with lag bolts into the side of the building and holes drilled through to equipment inside. They want to be able to lease that space to someone else when the satellite dish owner moves on.

So the "bucket" brigade moves in ... and the buckets are not buried (might as well put in a post in concrete if burying stuff is allowed). One of my apartment neighbors had their satellite install on a 4x4 buried into the ground. A week later the complex management noticed, the hole was filled and a bucket appeared.

Another reason why I'm glad I live in a house. I can have as many dishes as I like, drill holes and put up security cameras to watch and record the place 24/7.


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

Mr-Rick said:


> The fact that you had to wait such a long time to get this resolved is the main point. This is where I agree that you should not have to wait this long. Either a local retailer should be able to provide you with a fix or DISH directly.
> 
> I am shocked that a local retailer would have to take 5-6 weeks to get to you. NO RETAILER IN THE U.S. is scheduling work 5-6 weeks ahead for standard work. Average turnaround for a new install is 2-3 days here in N.E. Ohio (Actually a bit more with the snowstorm, i.e. weather not due to volume of work). Service work is anywhere between 1-36 hours from the time we get a phone call.
> 
> ...


I kid you not: On Dec. 22, I was actually quoted "last week of January" by one local dealer. He was not smiling when he said it. I was expecting a slightly longer wait than usual because of reason #2 below, but 5 weeks? No way.

As for a second dealer being "out of stock" on the 500, I was willing to accept that news at face value. The area had suffered a devastating ice storm the week before, and I knew a couple of people who had dishes crushed by ice and falling trees. (They were too busy patching their roofs and being without electricity for 9 days to worry much about dish replacement.) Mine might very well have been stolen by someone not willing to wait for the next truckload to roll into town.

Dealer three (in the next county) quoted me a "priority service call" price of $219 PLUS mileage! I think our state Attorney General would consider that "gouging".

Comparing service performance betweeen Cincinnati and Mayberry, MO is strictly apples and oranges. Useful information, sure... IF I lived in your city, but not wholly translatable here in my little hamlet.


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

Mr-Rick said:


> I wonder how a cellular phone company would handle this. My cell phone is stolen and I ask the cell phone company to replace it for free.


It's a very similar situation, and I had a very similar experience. My cell phone company looked up how long I'd subscribed and for how much per month, and they took care of me in exchange for an extra year's commitment.

Like the cell phone folks, Dish doesn't make its money on equipment. Look at their cost of subscriber acquisition, and it becomes pretty easy to justify a service call and another dish.

And this thread points out an important part of business and life: If you want something, ask for it. Be friendly, be willing to negotiate, but go ahead and ask. If someone wants to give you a hand, they will. If not, then that's when you switch to Plan B.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mr-Rick said:


> I wonder how a cellular phone company would handle this. My cell phone is stolen and I ask the cell phone company to replace it for free.


When I got my first $200+ phone for "free" I decided it was time to pay for the insurance. A low monthly fee was better than the risk.



FTA Michael said:


> And this thread points out an important part of business and life: If you want something, ask for it. Be friendly, be willing to negotiate, but go ahead and ask. If someone wants to give you a hand, they will. If not, then that's when you switch to Plan B.


The FIRST step is always to be polite about the request. By the book the company holds no responsibility - but a speaking softly CAN get you somewhere.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

James Long said:


> What would be wrong with that?


It would have been odd had you lived in either state had seen bunches of them.



> The apartments I used to live in allowed non-penetrating mounts. There were all sorts of variations. Those on the ground floor had buckets ... those above had buckets or some sort of weighted tripod on their balconies. The fun ones were the folks who lived on the wrong side of the building on the third floor. They had 4x4 or bigger posts hanging out from their balconies up at an angle where the dish could see over the rooftop. Really ugly arrangements. I can see why complexes try to outlaw such things.


All the big complexes in my area of NJ seem to have "associations" that rule against things like American flags (true story). I can't imagine a bucket sat being allowed in a place where you can't fly the flag. I can't imagine living under an "associations" rules and regs. In Jersey, the town codes are so strict (but poorly enforced, they depend on neighbors to rat out other neighbors) that "associations" are probably redundant.



> and the buckets are not buried (might as well put in a post in concrete if burying stuff is allowed).


I saw the buried in concrete, buckets or whatever, dishes on the front lawns and side lawns of houses. I gotta take a ride thru that town I was talking about.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

unclezippy said:


> Dealer three (in the next county) quoted me a "priority service call" price of $219 PLUS mileage! I think our state Attorney General would consider that "gouging".


Oy, you should live in NJ, $219 for a new dish and install and alignment would be cheap compared to most places in NJ.

I used a private contractor in 2002 to wire my house with multi-switches and splitters and wires to many rooms. I had purchased the multi-switches myself. $125 to walk in the front door. Wonder what he charges today? Splitters + wire + hourly rate for three hours work cost me $650. Paid it happily because I learned how to do it.

Rich


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rich584 said:


> I used a private contractor in 2002 to wire my house with multi-switches and splitters and wires to many rooms. I had purchased the multi-switches myself. $125 to walk in the front door. Wonder what he charges today? Splitters + wire + hourly rate for three hours work cost me $650. Paid it happily because I learned how to do it.


So next time you will violate local ordinances by not having a licensed/certified technician do the work? 

I did some wiring in my house and later needed a wall replaced (separate issue ... no, my wiring didn't kill the wall). The contractor was nice about it, but I had to make a couple of changes before he would touch my house. Everything they touched had to be up to standards before they left ... if I didn't fix it (or cover it up) he would have to (and charge me extra). They didn't want to take the blame if the building inspector didn't like my work.

Some areas are pickier about who can do "licensed work" ... even people working on their own homes. 

We have some good contractors out here that would replace a Dish 500 in a day or two (depending on scheduling). We got 18" of snow yesterday so I wouldn't expect it to be too immediate.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> So next time you will violate local ordinances by not having a licensed/certified technician do the work?
> 
> I did some wiring in my house and later needed a wall replaced (separate issue ... no, my wiring didn't kill the wall). The contractor was nice about it, but I had to make a couple of changes before he would touch my house. Everything they touched had to be up to standards before they left ... if I didn't fix it (or cover it up) he would have to (and charge me extra). They didn't want to take the blame if the building inspector didn't like my work.
> 
> Some areas are pickier about who can do "licensed work" ... even people working on their own homes.


As someone who has done building inspection and supervised building inspectors, and who has worked with, for, and as a licensed contractor, I feel very comfortable stating that the worst work done on my own home has been by licensed contractors inspected by building inspectors. The only exception to doing it myself these days is roofing - its three stories and I hate heights.

Of course, I'm old and crotchity.


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## Cocoatreat (May 16, 2006)

when my dish was stolen.i was lucky that i had an extra dish 500..... (i had used it in another state). however.....after hooking everything up.....i just could aim it by myself.. mine was a rooftop installation .so i couldnt hear anything.... i did call e* & i guess i must have been lucky... a visit from a technician came about 2days later. it would have been sooner.....but we couldnt coordinate a time when i could be around. i guess i was pretty lucky.....and the fee was $75 ....i didnt mind it ...i had my service. e* was ready to provide becuz they knew i could jump the boat at any time... but i'm happy i stayed


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

James Long said:


> So next time you will violate local ordinances by not having a licensed/certified technician do the work?


NJ, as far as I know, does not require licensing of sat installers. The installers we get all come from Staten Island, NY. Don't know what their requirements are. Two that I had visit me had been on the job for 3 months. Very little training other than ride alongs with more experienced installers. No problem with local ordinances.



> Some areas are pickier about who can do "licensed work" ... even people working on their own homes.


In NJ homeowners may do their own electrical work and have it inspected by the township electrical inspector. Pretty much the same for everything you do on your house. As I have said before, the townships don't do the policing, they wait for a neighbor to turn in their neighbor.



> We have some good contractors out here that would replace a Dish 500 in a day or two (depending on scheduling). We got 18" of snow yesterday so I wouldn't expect it to be too immediate.


When I looked at Google Earth the other day your location came out as the North Pole. Pretty funny, I thought. Looked today and I was reading the map wrong. Looks like Michigan or Ohio.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

phrelin said:


> As someone who has done building inspection and supervised building inspectors, and who has worked with, for, and as a licensed contractor, I feel very comfortable stating that the worst work done on my own home has been by licensed contractors inspected by building inspectors. The only exception to doing it myself these days is roofing - its three stories and I hate heights.


I agree. And I do all my own electrical work. You let your fingers do the walking thru the Yellow Pages and pick an electrical contractor and you never know what you are going to get.

Before you electricians out there flip out, I am a state certified electrician, went thru a four year apprenticeship and worked as an industrial electrician long enough to become a Master Electrician. Who better to judge an electrician than another electrician? I supervised craftsmen of all sorts for years and the good ones are few and far between. Same with lawyers and doctors.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Cocoatreat said:


> when my dish was stolen.


Again I have to ask: What kind of nitwit steals a dish? Practical joke, I can see that. Drunk prank, I can see that. Be worth it to lay in the bushes and watch the owner's expression when he sees his dish is gone.

But to just steal one? Wow! Anybody out there ever steal one? PM me if you have. I won't rat you out. Just curious what your motive was.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

I just checked the National Electric Code and aside from the usual grounding requirements could find nothing applying to satellite dishes. Is that your experience too? I hate reading that thing.

Rich



phrelin said:


> As someone who has done building inspection and supervised building inspectors, and who has worked with, for, and as a licensed contractor, I feel very comfortable stating that the worst work done on my own home has been by licensed contractors inspected by building inspectors. The only exception to doing it myself these days is roofing - its three stories and I hate heights.
> 
> Of course, I'm old and crotchity.


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Again I have to ask: What kind of nitwit steals a dish? Practical joke, I can see that. Drunk prank, I can see that. Be worth it to lay in the bushes and watch the owner's expression when he sees his dish is gone.
> 
> But to just steal one? Wow! Anybody out there ever steal one? PM me if you have. I won't rat you out. Just curious what your motive was.
> 
> Rich


The OP/victim here: Based on our regional crime statistics, I can say with 99% certainty that my particular theft was somehow drug-related. Or perhaps drug-induced...

BTW: Dish came out today and installed my new 500. Not on the garage roof where I'd first planned it, but a concrete-set pole job in the side yard so it could be grounded. (That's a rule, right? No installs w/o proper grounding. OK by me, the bucket was never earthed. )

Tech was on-time and install was neat, fast and efficient. And he worked like a trooper out in the 15F weather this morning.

E* done good. Now, let's see how long this dish stays out of the police reports....


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

unclezippy said:


> The OP/victim here: Based on our regional crime statistics, I can say with 99% certainty that my particular theft was somehow drug-related. Or perhaps drug-induced...


Drug related? For money to buy drugs? No self respecting fence would buy it. Drug induced? Perhaps, but what drug causes you to do something like that? Alcohol. The only one I can think of. And I can understand a drunk doing something so irrational, just for the hell of it. And, in most cases, forgive the drunk.

Stupidity? Seems like the most logical conclusion. Just plain old stupidity.



> BTW: Dish came out today and installed my new 500. Not on the garage roof where I'd first planned it, but a concrete-set pole job in the side yard so it could be grounded. (That's a rule, right? No installs w/o proper grounding. OK by me, the bucket was never earthed. )


Not a legal ground. Should have run a ground wire to your interior water piping system and put a grounding block on a water pipe, or perhaps on an outside faucet. I have grounding blocks on both exterior faucets. OR, and this is big OR, drive a 5 foot long copper rod, it's either five eighths or three quarters rod, into the ground and bug the ground wire onto that.

Rich


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## unclezippy (Sep 28, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Not a legal ground. Should have run a ground wire to your interior water piping system and put a grounding block on a water pipe, or perhaps on an outside faucet. I have grounding blocks on both exterior faucets. OR, and this is big OR, drive a 5 foot long copper rod, it's either five eighths or three quarters rod, into the ground and bug the ground wire onto that.
> 
> Rich


He did ground it, I just didn't say to what....

(The ground spike attached to the central AC unit. I can't tell you if it's 5 feet long or not.)

It was my stolen BUCKET that wasn't earthed, maybe that was the disconnect (excuse the pun).


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

The rod at the central AC unit is better than a faucet, assuming that the rod is connected to the house grounding system which it should be if it was installed properly. The best is to go right to the house ground rod. With faucets you have no idea if the pipe is continuous copper or PVC (which doesn't make a very good ground  ). The faucet should be a last resort. Driving an independent ground rod just for the dish is asking for a ground loop if the rod is not then connected to the house ground rod.


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

Richard King said:


> The rod at the central AC unit is better than a faucet, assuming that the rod is connected to the house grounding system which it should be if it was installed properly. The best is to go right to the house ground rod. With faucets you have no idea if the pipe is continuous copper or PVC (which doesn't make a very good ground  ). The faucet should be a last resort. Driving an independent ground rod just for the dish is asking for a ground loop if the rod is not then connected to the house ground rod.


Correct Richard. I also believe if a new ground rod must be installed it is supposed to be an 8 footer and that too must be bonded to the house ground.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

rich584 said:


> NJ, as far as I know, does not require licensing of sat installers. The installers we get all come from Staten Island, NY. Don't know what their requirements are. Two that I had visit me had been on the job for 3 months. Very little training other than ride alongs with more experienced installers. No problem with local ordinances.
> 
> In NJ homeowners may do their own electrical work and have it inspected by the township electrical inspector. Pretty much the same for everything you do on your house. As I have said before, the townships don't do the policing, they wait for a neighbor to turn in their neighbor.
> 
> When I looked at Google Earth the other day your location came out as the North Pole. Pretty funny, I thought. Looked today and I was reading the map wrong. Looks like Michigan or Ohio.


And all the techs I get seem to come from Pennsylvania....

Over the years dish 300 to dish500 (free) 61.5 dish (free), SW64 (free), HD install of receiver, and change to DP Switch and LNBs (free), Upgrade to DPP44 so I could reconnect my Dishplayer, still in use BTW (free).

Where I am I know for a fact that the only plastic in the water lines is the short connection between the wall shutoffs under the sinks and toilets. Now tha the last Licensed plumber in the family has moved west to escape Jersey taxes I do it too as well as the electrical. Many years ago I worked for a electrician. I also went along as a plumbers helper growing up. My younger brother is still in the IBEW. So I'm fairly well covered for maintanence around the house.

Going back to the copper grounding rods. Do we or anyone really know how much resistance builds up between the rod and the earth due to oxidation of the copper? Ground type? Moisture levels?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

unclezippy said:


> He did ground it, I just didn't say to what....
> 
> (The ground spike attached to the central AC unit. I can't tell you if it's 5 feet long or not.)
> 
> It was my stolen BUCKET that wasn't earthed, maybe that was the disconnect (excuse the pun).


Sounds better. One can only hope.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> Going back to the copper grounding rods. Do we or anyone really know how much resistance builds up between the rod and the earth due to oxidation of the copper? Ground type? Moisture levels?


The National Electric Code mandates the 5 foot copper rod. Hard to drive in Central Jersey because of the shale. You have to get a rotohammer and drill the hole out. Or, I think there is a provision in the NEC that allows you to bury the whole rod (I don't know how deep) vertically and make your connections before filling in the hole. As for the issues you brought up, I don't know. I would think the problems associated with them are minimal or the code wouldn't allow it.

Funny story, sort of: I walked around a corner at work one day and found two electricians hacksawing about two feet off the top of a rod they had given up on driving the required depth. Could have terminated them on the spot, but chose to educate them instead. Grounding is extremely important in a chemical factory. And I have a soft spot for electricians.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mr-Rick said:


> Correct Richard. I also believe if a new ground rod must be installed it is supposed to be an 8 footer and that too must be bonded to the house ground.


You're wrong. If you want to be correct read the NEC. You can't just guess at these things.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Richard King said:


> The rod at the central AC unit is better than a faucet, assuming that the rod is connected to the house grounding system which it should be if it was installed properly. The best is to go right to the house ground rod. With faucets you have no idea if the pipe is continuous copper or PVC (which doesn't make a very good ground  ).


You can look for a ground rod in a house all you want in NJ. I doubt if you would find one unless it was a brand new house. Or trailer. The water lines should be all black iron (my house) or copper and the NEC allows for a ground block to be attached to a metal water line. The incoming water supply pipe supplies the ground to the house. The supply pipe is deeply buried (need a backhoe).

I don't know what they do in Florida. Different considerations. I would imagine you would see an exterior ground rod that is attached to the various grounding blocks in the house.



> The faucet should be a last resort.


Ground clamps on exterior faucets are allowed by the NEC. There are no "last resorts" in the NEC.



> Driving an independent ground rod just for the dish is asking for a ground loop if the rod is not then connected to the house ground rod.


A "ground loop"? What is that? Ground is ground. You can drive a rod in the ground fifty feet from a house and put a meter between the house and the rod and you will read continuity.

Whatever the situation, towns or states cannot, by federal regulation, supersede the NEC. They can exceed the requirements, but they must do at least what the NEC mandates.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

While this is off the original poster's topic, it is an interesting discussion. He got his problem solved.

NEC Section 250.52 Grounding Electrodes
(A) Electrodes permitted for grounding.
(1) Metal underground water pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) *and electrically continuous *(or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) *to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors.* Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

250.53 Grounding electrode system installation.
(D) Metal underground water pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode, metal undergound water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.539D)(1) and (D)(2).
(1)Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment. 
(2)Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(7).

I'm not going to type those sections, but a pipe on it's own does NOT meet NEC requirements. Somewhere in those houses in NJ there is a supplemental ground, be it a rod or some other mechanism.

Translation of all this.... the main water pipe coming into the house can be used as the ground point. HOWEVER, you can't just pick a faucet and ground your dish to that faucet. This may or may not be the case depending on what is between that faucet and the point where the main water line is connected to the house grounding system. The reason that I stated "last resort" is that we don't know if that faucet that you are "grounding" to is actually a grounded pipe. We don't know if there may be PVC somewhere along its run from a repair done at some time in the past by a previous owner. We don't know if it is continuous with the grounding electrode conductor. We may assume so (and you know what happens when we assume things), but I would rather be safe and go direct to the grouding rod or, if no rod (as you say), electrical service point of entry.



> A "ground loop"? What is that? Ground is ground. You can drive a rod in the ground fifty feet from a house and put a meter between the house and the rod and you will read continuity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)

NEC Section 810.21(J). Bonding of Electrodes. A bonding jumper not smaller than 6AWG copper or equivalent shall be connected between the radio and television equipment grounding electrode and the power grounding electrode system at the building or structure served where separate electrodes are used.

Translation: If you use a second grounding rod it must be connected to the main house ground. If what you say is true about grounds this wouldn't be in the NEC. In my years of designing/installing professional audio systems I have spent many hours chasing "ground loops".



> The National Electric Code mandates the 5 foot copper rod.


NEC 250.52 (5) Rod and pipe electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2.5m (8 ft) in length and shall consist of the following materials...



> You're wrong. If you want to be correct read the NEC. You can't just guess at these things.


You might want to try that.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I'm hoping you all have your house electrical system grounded with a proper ground rod. Water system folks don't really like pipe grounding - you actually can get a shock at a pipe when something's wrong. It's not legal in every locale and it's not unusual to have someone put pvc between the house and the Earth (also not legal in many places) making it a poor ground.

My DVRs are grounded through the third prong as is that power thingy they added for the second dish, but I don't think the contractor guys that installed my HD attached the ground wire between the two dishes and the DVRs to anything. Unfortunately, I'm not amenable to getting up on the roof until Summer in order to check it out, but it looks like it's been cut off.


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

phrelin said:


> My DVRs are grounded through the third prong ...


"Third prong" as in the 3rd prong on the electrical outlet?

Doesn't that go to the 'house ground'? If so, it's not a way around the other flaws you noted in your post.


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## falcon241073 (Jun 3, 2007)

LOL i do not believe the DISH installers grounded my dish at my apartment. hope an electrical storm does not come thru


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

Richard King said:


> While this is off the original poster's topic, it is an interesting discussion. He got his problem solved.
> 
> NEC Section 250.52 Grounding Electrodes
> (A) Electrodes permitted for grounding.
> ...


Very good Richard, as always...


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## MadMatt2024 (Jun 2, 2007)

rich584 said:


> A "ground loop"? What is that? Ground is ground. You can drive a rod in the ground fifty feet from a house and put a meter between the house and the rod and you will read continuity.


 From Wikipedia: In electrical engineering and electronics, a ground loop refers to an unwanted current that flows in a conductor connecting two points that are supposed to be at the same potential, for example ground potential, but are actually at different potentials.

A ground loop can cause electrical noise that will interfere with any electronic equipment connected to it. It is known to happen in car audio installs and cause an audible hum coming any speaker connected to an external amp. I can only imagine how that would interfere with a sat signal.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Anyone with any just BASIC knowledge of electricity would know what a ground loop is.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Mr-Rick said:


> Very good Richard, as always...


Thank you Mr. Rick. It's nice to have the code book actually sitting right here at my desk.


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## MrDogDad (Nov 20, 2006)

Richard King said:


> Thank you Mr. Rick. It's nice to have the code book actually sitting right here at my desk.


You can access the NEC online here. It's in a format that won't allow copy and paste, but at least it's free.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Using Wackypedia as a source of information is not nearly as accurate as the NEC. I would like to see someone drive an eight foot copper rod into the ground. However, I shall look in the NEC and see if your info is correct. I have installed many ground rods and they were all five feet in length. Admittedly, that was quite a while ago and perhaps the regulation has been changed.



Richard King said:


> While this is off the original poster's topic, it is an interesting discussion. He got his problem solved.
> 
> NEC Section 250.52 Grounding Electrodes
> (A) Electrodes permitted for grounding.
> ...


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Richard King said:


> Anyone with any just BASIC knowledge of electricity would know what a ground loop is.


I have more than a BASIC knowledge of electricity and I never heard of a ground loop. But let me do some research.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I used the NEC as my source. I have the book sitting right here when I need it. I used Wiki only for defining a ground loop.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> I have installed many ground rods and they were all five feet in length. Admittedly, that was quite a while ago and perhaps the regulation has been changed.


If they were only 5' in length and were installed after 1989 they were not to code. Better fix that. The regulation has been 8' since AT LEAST 1989 when I drove my first ground rod in Minnesota in the dead of winter.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Richard King said:


> If they were only 5' in length and were installed after 1989 they were not to code. Better fix that. The regulation has been 8' since AT LEAST 1989 when I drove my first ground rod in Minnesota in the dead of winter.


I stopped installing ground rods long before that. The code mandates 8' ground rods at the service entrance. And a clarification I found states:

"For underground services ONLY, leave the top 2 inches of the ground rod exposed,
prior to service installation. Ground rods shall be *covered* after
the service has been installed."

That is probably why I have never seen a ground rod in a house or outside a house. The regulation must have changed concerning the length of the rod and the makeup of the rod. I find now that steel rods sheathed in copper are acceptable. The rods we used in the plant were solid copper.

The ground blocks on my faucets were placed there by my local electric and gas company. NJPSE&G. They were installed by them to facilitate the use of remote usage readers. Don't have to let them in to read the gas and electric meters.

As for the rest, I hate reading the NEC and am getting a headache. Enough, you win, I was wrong, shouldn't have relied on memory, should have read this monstrosity before posting.

Now, what is a "ground loop"?


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity))
It appears that the Wiki link I posted above is a bit goofy. Try this one, it worked for me. A ground loop happens when a signal is referenced to two different "ground" points that supposedly are the same, but are in fact different. This happens if you drive a second rod in a system and do not connect it to the first rod. A small potential exists between the two "ground" points which can cause hum in audio circuits and hum bars in video circuits. It also can be dangerous. Sorry about the first link, I don't know what happened there.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Richard King said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity))
> It appears that the Wiki link I posted above is a bit goofy. Try this one, it worked for me. A ground loop happens when a signal is referenced to two different "ground" points that supposedly are the same, but are in fact different. This happens if you drive a second rod in a system and do not connect it to the first rod. A small potential exists between the two "ground" points which can cause hum in audio circuits and hum bars in video circuits. It also can be dangerous. Sorry about the first link, I don't know what happened there.


I just broke out my Electrician's Handbook from 1973 and the eight foot requirement is for service connections in a house or building. Never did that. What I was referring to was the grounding of "tank farms" and such. In a purely industrial setting. I was always given a package of prints and a bill of material that included 5' solid copper grounding rods. These packages came from our engineering department and I am sure that they checked the requirements for grounding. I would think a solid three quarter copper 5' rod would probably equal an eight foot copper jacketed steel rod. Not sure tho. I did and still would trust the electrical engineers that sent out those packages. If any of them are still living.

I think we were arguing about two different things. If the "tank farm" blew up, the engineers would have been responsible and they were following our guidelines which exceeded the NEC.

Can't find anything about "ground loops" in the Handbook (which is much easier to read than the NEC). I do remember that symptom occurring in cars in the 50's when something would go bad in the electrical system and the radio (AM) would pick up static all of a sudden. I guess that is what you are talking about. That usually turned out to be a bad distributer cap or a bad ignition coil. Never had that problem with an AV system.

You have to remember, there are two kinds of electricians. The contractors who do houses and commercial work and industrial electricians. They are usually separated by knowledge and experience and are not easily interchangeable. In other words, a house wiring electrician could do a house a whole lot faster and better than I could. But he would be lost in an industrial setting until he gained the required knowledge and experience. Kind of like a first baseman playing shortstop on a manager's whim. Given time the first baseman might make a passable SS, but that would take time and experience and more knowledge.

I have learned to be distrustful of Wackipedia. I've found too many articles that are just wrong. Most of it is written by anybody who wants to contribute something. No bona fides required from what I can see.

I must admit that this has been interesting. Try the Electrician's Handbook the next time you have an electrical issue. It is based upon the NEC, but is much clearer and doesn't contradict itself as the NEC does. And it changes every year or so to reflect changes in the NEC.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Richard King said:


> If they were only 5' in length and were installed after 1989 they were not to code. Better fix that. The regulation has been 8' since AT LEAST 1989 when I drove my first ground rod in Minnesota in the dead of winter.


OK, I gotta ask this: How did you drive that eight foot rod into the Minnesota ground in the dead of winter? According to the Electrician's Handbook, you could have dug a 4 foot deep trench and buried the rod vertically.

I went outside before and there is no grounding rod in sight anywhere near my service line. I can only assume it is buried.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Richard King said:


> Anyone with any just BASIC knowledge of electricity would know what a ground loop is.


And yet, I have been a state certified electrician, have supervised electricians, taught electrical classes at a college and developed an award winning seminar on electrical shock. I see what you mean now, but ignorance is forgivable and I had never heard the term used.

Rich


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> I have learned to be distrustful of Wackipedia. I've found too many articles that are just wrong. Most of it is written by anybody who wants to contribute something. No bona fides required from what I can see.


On that we can agree, but, having much knowledge of ground loops from experience in the past, this appears to be accurate to me.  I spent about 15 years in the pro audio business where quiet electrical systems are a must. In installing recording studios you "are not allowed" to hear any hummmmm or buzzzzz. Hums and buzzes could nearly always be traced back to ground loops between pieces of equipment. Lifting one end of a signal shield and doing a "star point" ground system was the best way to eliminate the problems. It could actually be quite the challenge though to get it right.



> OK, I gotta ask this: How did you drive that eight foot rod into the Minnesota ground in the dead of winter? According to the Electrician's Handbook, you could have dug a 4 foot deep trench and buried the rod vertically.


Doing the ground rod was just part of the job of working in those conditions. I was planting 10' dishes in the ground and the ground rod was part of the installation. The pole that the dishes sat on had to go down at least 4' to get below the typical frost line. Depending on how far into winter we were it could sometimes take a couple of days to get the hole dug for the dish. I was a one man operation so the time involved in getting it right didn't matter that much to me, other than trying to avoid frostbite. I would get the lid from my Weber grill and place it on top of a pile of burning charcoal to thaw the ground. It sometimes took a couple of trips to get below the frost line. Thaw, dig, thaw, dig.  Once below the frost line everything was pretty much a normal installation.



> I went outside before and there is no grounding rod in sight anywhere near my service line. I can only assume it is buried


Could be. If it were there it would be right near the meter. There should be a heavy, usually bare, often painted over, copper conductor coming out of the meter box that goes into the ground. Follow that conductor and you should find a grounding rod at the end. It may not be sticking out of the ground, but may be a couple of inches under the surface. In any case, it should be very close to the surface. I find that it actually sticks out of the surface about 50% of the time (both here and in Minnesnowta).


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Richard King said:


> Could be. If it were there it would be right near the meter. There should be a heavy, usually bare, often painted over, copper conductor coming out of the meter box that goes into the ground. Follow that conductor and you should find a grounding rod at the end. It may not be sticking out of the ground, but may be a couple of inches under the surface. In any case, it should be very close to the surface. I find that it actually sticks out of the surface about 50% of the time (both here and in Minnesnowta).


Nothing. Kicked the ground around and see nothing. Lotta soil and mulch added since the house was built. If it is there it is probably way down now.

The rod is supposed to be 6" below final grade. Your frostline was four feet? My God. Ours is only 18"


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Frost line was tyically 36", but we had to go 12" below the frost line to keep the dish from heaving with the freeze/thaw cycles. Some of the fly by night outfits would only go down a couple of feet and the dishes would be leaning over after the first cycle.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

rich584 said:


> I did and still would trust the electrical engineers that sent out those packages. If any of them are still living.


Living because it was 35 years ago? 

I've dealt with a few systems that were beyond code (met and exceeded). Sometimes it is out of an abundance of caution, sometimes it is because that going beyond code was required to solve a problem. I've also had an engineer turn up his nose at the design of a 40 year old ground system ... until he tested it and found that it FAR exceeded the quality of ground required and provided by the new system.

I also deal with ground loops ... not in high voltage (110v plus) but generally in audio. I've had to run a lot of XLR balanced connections with the ground lifted to prevent hum.


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## Mr-Rick (Dec 1, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Using Wackypedia as a source of information is not nearly as accurate as the NEC. I would like to see someone drive an eight foot copper rod into the ground. However, I shall look in the NEC and see if your info is correct. I have installed many ground rods and they were all five feet in length. Admittedly, that was quite a while ago and perhaps the regulation has been changed.


Come on over and I'll show you. Granted it is not easy but it can be done and it is required. I use a ground rod driver and then a sledge hammer. Actually, I cant recall ever seeing 5 foot ground rods. Does Home Depot or Lowes carry them?


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## Ext 721 (Feb 26, 2007)

this is why I deliberately got an upstairs flat, with a balcony....


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## eatonjb (Nov 21, 2006)

well, i did not real all the other pages..

but here is what i would do,

do the same thing, but try to mount it a little btter , or chain it or something like that, but i would make sure that everything that can be run inside the house (ie the switch).


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

James Long said:


> Living because it was 35 years ago?


Most of them were old then. The plant had started operating in 1936 and we had a lot of old timers ("not that there's anything wrong with that"). I doubt if many of them still survive



> I've dealt with a few systems that were beyond code (met and exceeded). Sometimes it is out of an abundance of caution, sometimes it is because that going beyond code was required to solve a problem.


We pretty much exceeded all requirements, electrical and mechanical and structural for the reasons you stated and for the facts that it was safer to do so and in the long run, cost effective.



> high voltage (110v plus)


I was taught to think of anything above 600 VAC as "high voltage". That's the really scary stuff that defies the Theory of Electricity with regularity. Under 600 volts, we got a pretty good understanding of, altho strange things do happen at these "lower" voltages. And the higher the voltage, the easier it is to find a problem (up to 600 volts, anyway).

Rich


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