# OTA dropouts on 622 input



## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

I have a 622 and an OTA antenna. I have had OTA dropouts, pixilation, frame freezes, etc. on one of my digital channels (Fox 7 out of Austin, TX.) ever since I hooked the 622 up. All the other channels are fine for the most part.

I finally isolated the problem and want to see if I can get advice on how to fix it. The issue is that when the OTA antenna is hooked directly to my HDTV (Sony Bravia), I get absolutely NO dropouts, pixilation, etc. As soon as I hook the antenna to the antenna input on the 622, the drops are rampant with that channel and minimal on the other channels. Is this a problem with the input connection of the 622? Can anyone give any advice about how I can correct the issue?

Thanks


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

What type of antenna do you have? Is it indoor or outdoors? What signal strength do you show on your 622 on the OTA digital station that you are having problems with?

If the signal strength is good you may want to go to *antenna web* and put in your address and see what direction the station is in relation to where you have your antenna pointed. It is in a different directions than your other stations you may need to re-point your antenna or get a different antenna.


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## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

Thanks for your reply, however the issue is not with the antenna. I took it outside, on top of the roof and had my girlfriend read signal strengths to me. While hooked to the 622, I never got a good signal without dropouts, even while on the roof and pointing directly at the broadcast tower. While connected directly to the TV, I get great signal strength and absolutely NO dropouts.

The issue has to be with the 622 and a poor OTA tuner or it's inability to deal with multipath as well as my Sony XBR Bravia. I found another thread on this forum dealing with this issue, but no one actually had a solution, which is why I'm asking now.

As I think about it now, I'm thinking that L3.65 MAY have caused (or at least increased the problem). The issue seemed to become worse since it spooled. Is the UHF in some way controlled by the software? Do you think maybe the way the 622 handles the multipath was influenced by L3.65?


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## mraroid (Jun 11, 2006)

Surveyor98 said:


> I have a 622 and an OTA antenna. I have had OTA dropouts, pixilation, frame freezes, etc. on one of my digital channels (Fox 7 out of Austin, TX.) ever since I hooked the 622 up. All the other channels are fine for the most part.Thanks


Do you have a 2nd antenna input in your Sony? That may solve the viewing problem, but maybe you want to use the 622 to record OTA TV?

mraroid


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## TreeFarm (Dec 4, 2006)

I see two possibilities.

1. The signal is weak, and the Bravia is better at weak signal reception.

2. The signal is strong but multipathing, and the Bravia is better at handling multipath.

Try using a splitter to feed the signal to both the 622 and the Bravia at the same time. This will drop the signal level 3DB. If the situation improves, it is an indication you have multipathing issues. If it worsens, it is an indication that it is a weak signal issue. If there is no change, nothing has been proved, but you can view with the signal decoded by whatever suits you best at the moment.


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## Traveler62 (Nov 20, 2006)

I have the same issue with PBS HD channels 19-1 through 19-4 here in Kansas City. I posted the issue on the Local HDTV issues section of AVS forum for Kansas City (as per one mods advice, thanks!) and found another 622 owner is seeing the same thing exactly. I figure it is something the station is sending in the signal that the 622 doesn't like. I told an engineer at the station about the problem, but they didn't seem too concerned. I do get good signal strength on these channels (about 93), but every few seconds, the strength drops and then comes back. If you are seeing weak strengths on all channels, the OTA tuner on the 622 may be bad.

This forced me to buy the locals package which at least I get program info now too, that is nice. Would be nicer if it was free.


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## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

I will try to utilize the splitter first, but if that doesn't work, I'm complaining to Dish. If a television can utilize the signal, then the 622 sure as heck should. Thanks for your help.


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## gooders (Nov 8, 2006)

Surveyor98 said:


> Thanks for your reply, however the issue is not with the antenna. I took it outside, on top of the roof and had my girlfriend read signal strengths to me.


Man she is a keeper!!! My wife just complains that it look ugly!!

I agree that the Tuner on the 622 is not as good as some TVs. I get a better consistency on my TV (Hitachi) than through 622 so I watch it via 622 when I watch, and only use 622 for recording. means a littel switching about but it's not big deal. I think it's multipathing that's my problem - it helped when i used a splitter.


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## ee1995 (Feb 10, 2004)

I have an 811 with the same issue (and a Viewsonic 32" LCD that also has an internal 8VSB tuner). I was hoping that the tuner in the 622 would be better. My house has a attic antenna that works well for OTA analog. I use an RS distribution amplifier to feed the analog TV through a Dish 510 to several TVs. Neither the 811 nor the Viewsonic get any digital reception at all when connected directly to this antenna (either with or without the amp). I had to install rooftop antenna with rotor and CM UHF preamp to make the 811 work and I need to move the antenna when changing stations. 

I recently bought a new Sony 50" SXRD RPTV and, just for grins, connected its 8VSB input to the attic antenna. It found all local digital station and two more distant ones and gets 100% reception on all. Never a dropout! Shows what a late generation tuner can do. I think it's about time to retire the 811. My wife wants a simpler system with one guide and the ability to change channels without changing inputs or multiple remotes so I may have to go the TW cable.


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## Cokeswigga (Jan 25, 2005)

The 622 tuner was MUCH better than the 811 in my case.


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## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

gooders said:


> Man she is a keeper!!! My wife just complains that it look ugly!!
> 
> Yes, she's definitely a keeper. She's a bit of a techno-geek herself (and beautiful, I might add) so she kind of gets into this stuff. I'm trying to get everything straightened out before I have to leave town for about 16 months for a job. I'm getting the splitter today.
> 
> Too bad my Cowboys had to beat your Colts! :lol:


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## acrosby (Oct 30, 2006)

What does the 622 say your signal strength is when you change to that channel?


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## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

WHen I change to Fox, it's usually showing in the upper 80's to 95 range. It will then drop to zero after a few seconds, then cut in and out in a random pattern, making watching the channel almost impossible. Makes football an very non-enjoyable process!


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## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

Spoke with an advance techie today. She said I've done all the troubleshooting I can do, so they will send me a replacement unit since it looks like the 622 is not dealing with the signal stream properly. I should have it by Thursday!


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## jhr2112 (Dec 31, 2006)

I have had Dish 2 weeks now and have had the dropout problem on fox from the start. I am getting a 100% signal from my 622 using my outside directional UHF antenna. My old Sony Directv receiver I'm using as an off air hd source receives Fox perfectly as does my hd tuner card in my computer. After configuring the connections every way I can think of, including direct connection and with a splitter and an attenuator I still get the dropouts. In reading other forums I see many 622 owners in the Austin market started having this problem at the same time. I suspect Fox changed something in the signal to cause this and I'll try calling them and see if I get a response. I'm glad this is only affecting Fox, I only watch an occasional ballgame on them.


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## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

jhr2112 said:


> I have had Dish 2 weeks now and have had the dropout problem on fox from the start. I am getting a 100% signal from my 622 using my outside directional UHF antenna. My old Sony Directv receiver I'm using as an off air hd source receives Fox perfectly as does my hd tuner card in my computer. After configuring the connections every way I can think of, including direct connection and with a splitter and an attenuator I still get the dropouts. In reading other forums I see many 622 owners in the Austin market started having this problem at the same time. I suspect Fox changed something in the signal to cause this and I'll try calling them and see if I get a response. I'm glad this is only affecting Fox, I only watch an occasional ballgame on them.


I got my replacement receiver and hooked it up today. I then sent a letter to Dish and posted it on a new thread today because the problem still persists. I didn't see the other forums concerning Austin users. Which ones are they? I'd like to check them out.

By the way, could it be an issue with L3.65?

Thanks


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

Surveyor98 said:


> WHen I change to Fox, it's usually showing in the upper 80's to 95 range. It will then drop to zero after a few seconds, then cut in and out in a random pattern


 That sounds like multipath issues to me. Some receivers are better than others at dealing with it so a replacement 622 will NOT solve the problem (as you've discovered).


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## ccapps3428 (Jan 2, 2006)

What is mean exactly by 'multpath'. I'm having this same problem with my 'local' OTA FOX channel mainly - but also other OTA locals too. I have a 90+ signal on my FOX channel and then it drops to 0 and I get a drop out (using the 622). I don't see this dropout when I'm using the 'direct' connection to my Hitachi HDTV. I do have a splitter on my antenna feed - so I can feed the Hitachi direct and to the 622.


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## jhr2112 (Dec 31, 2006)

Hall said:


> That sounds like multipath issues to me. Some receivers are better than others at dealing with it so a replacement 622 will NOT solve the problem (as you've discovered).


Not a multipath issue, I have a directional yagi outdoor antenna with rotator pointed right at fox and we put a scope on it to check multipath. We are getting multipath from the cbs station but the reciever holds onto that signal just fine just not fox .I am betting fox is the problem although I do notice the 622 is not as good a ota receiver that my directv was or the one in my hd tuner card. I wish dish used the hd tivo's, they have great receivers in them. (for $800 tho)


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## jhr2112 (Dec 31, 2006)

Surveyor98 said:


> I got my replacement receiver and hooked it up today. I then sent a letter to Dish and posted it on a new thread today because the problem still persists. I didn't see the other forums concerning Austin users. Which ones are they? I'd like to check them out.
> 
> By the way, could it be an issue with L3.65?
> 
> Thanks


I'm going to call Fox on Tuesday and see if I can talk to a tech. I hear that Austin is going to get the local hd's on Satellite soon but I still want to be able to record ota when it rains.

Fox 7 KTBC Austin (512) 476-7777


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## texasdoc01 (Jan 2, 2007)

I live in Austin and have the identical problem. I can watch the Fox station on my Mitsubishi Diamond Series TV with no trouble as long as the antenna is connected directly to the set, but using the Dish receiver's tuner renders this station basically unwatchable due to constant dropouts. The signal strength is actually quite high.


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## sbturner (Jul 24, 2002)

texasdoc01 said:


> I live in Austin and have the identical problem. I can watch the Fox station on my Mitsubishi Diamond Series TV with no trouble as long as the antenna is connected directly to the set, but using the Dish receiver's tuner renders this station basically unwatchable due to constant dropouts. The signal strength is actually quite high.


I have the same problem with WTLH Fox 49 out Tallahassee, Florida. I get 80-90 signal range and drops out every few seconds. Drives me nuts!! It sounds like maybe it's a FOX problem?


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## jhr2112 (Dec 31, 2006)

I just talked to the Chief Engineer at KTBC fox 7 in Austin and he is aware of the issue with the dish Vip 622. He said to try a 3db attenuator in-line before the antenna input of your receiver. Fox is broadcast on a very high frequency (channel 58 in HD, the receiver re names it 7.1) That high frequency causes some cheep receivers (vip 622) to not stay locked.That explains why my old Sony Directv receiver worked so well, it is a better quality receiver. When you add the attenuator you should run setup again and find the locals. I will try this this afternoon and let you know it it works.


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## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

jhr2112 said:


> I just talked to the Chief Engineer at KTBC fox 7 in Austin and he is aware of the issue with the dish Vip 622. He said to try a 3db attenuator in-line before the antenna input of your receiver. Fox is broadcast on a very high frequency (channel 58 in HD, the receiver re names it 7.1) That high frequency causes some cheep receivers (vip 622) to not stay locked.That explains why my old Sony Directv receiver worked so well, it is a better quality receiver. When you add the attenuator you should run setup again and find the locals. I will try this this afternoon and let you know it it works.


Any luck with the attenuator? I'm curious because I'll try it also if it works for you.


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

In another thread, "NBC Local problem Columbus Ohio" (http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73453), several people were complaining about the same thing.

To summarize, it started happening to VIP622 viewers of a Columbus station after they upgraded their HDTV transmitter. When the station switched back to their old equipment, the problem went away.


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

Cokeswigga said:


> The 622 tuner was MUCH better than the 811 in my case.


I am in Temecula also but more outside of town, past the wineries and up in the hills off Anza Road. Where are you in Temecula and what digital stations are you able to pull in? I haven't bothered with an OTA antenna since antennaweb said the only digital I would have access to is PBS San Bernardino.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

Here is another thread where this same problem has been discussed.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=69576&highlight=Austin+Fox

I too have moved my rca indoor antenna to my Sony and split the signal to both the TV and the 622. The TV receives the signal just fine. Let us know how the attennuator works. If it does then I am onboard in getting one as well.
Can you let us know where you got the attenuator from?
Did the engineer say if the reduction in signal strength will affect the ota channels?

thanks


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

My 622 will nor recognize DTV channel 19.1 out of Monroe Louisiana but my mistubishi tv has no problems with it. When scaning for channels on 622 it tries to lock in on 19 but will not do. My TV tuner has no problems with this channel and never pixalates on this channel. I have never gotten the 622 to lock in on this channel so I can't tell you the signal strength but tv has no problems with it. This is the only channel that does this. This channels frequency assignment is 19.
Also the 622 locks up *EVERYTIME I scan and save* a change on OTA.


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## FaxMan (Oct 14, 2003)

A FOX engineer here in Tallahassee says he's identified the problem and is working on the solution.



> Hello I have discovered a problem many of you already know of and have. The Dish 622 box will lockup/drop out when receiving WTLH Fox49's feed. You probably don't have a problem with your antenna if you receive the other stations without problems.
> 
> The problem is on our end and involves timing (pcr). The microwave should not be the problem can't blame it anymore have to find something else.
> I am working on it with help from Dish. More as I can.


My fingers are crossed. Hopefully he can get connected with the folks in Austin. Or, if anybody on this board has any suggestions regarding "timing (pcr)", please speak up.


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## Cokeswigga (Jan 25, 2005)

dbconsultant said:


> I am in Temecula also but more outside of town, past the wineries and up in the hills off Anza Road. Where are you in Temecula and what digital stations are you able to pull in? I haven't bothered with an OTA antenna since antennaweb said the only digital I would have access to is PBS San Bernardino.


I tried antenna web today, and no stations show up for me... they did a few weeks ago, so I dunno whats up with that site.

Anyways....

The antenna I have is the winegard HD-9095 with an AP-4700 pre-amp
The OTA gives signals stengths on a scale of 0-100
I can get CBS usually with signals in the 90s 
FOX, NBC, ABC are in the 70-80's. 
I never bothered trying to get any other stations.
This antenna is on the highest point of roof, and is on a 10 foot mast, so it's pretty high up.

I actually just orded an AP-4800 preamp, so I will update you next week, if this preamp works better. This is a higher gain pre-amp. Sometimes, during bad weather, the OTA signals drop to the 60's, so I amp hoping that this will help just a little.


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## CricTic (Mar 17, 2006)

Glad to see this issue is getting some renewed attention. Maybe it'll even get fixed before 24 starts up! 

I have my antenna hooked to both my TV and my 622 via a splitter that attenuates 3.5 dB, and have been noticing the dropouts for some time. On a lark, I tried removing the splitter, but noticed no chance to the KTBC reception performance. I also tried leaving the splitter in and connecting another attenuator to the back of the antenna (the same attenuator that ships with the receiver that you connect to TV2 coax if you're using it to drive a TV directly ... I'm pretty sure it's 3 dB). My KTBC signal dropped out entirely ... I'm guessing it was attenuated too much at that point.

I tried contacting KTBC but got nowhere. It sounds like someone has an open line with the KTBC engineer ... please stay on them with this, your fellow Austinites appreciate it!


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

Cokeswigga said:


> I tried antenna web today, and no stations show up for me... they did a few weeks ago, so I dunno whats up with that site.
> 
> Anyways....
> 
> ...


Thanks, Cokeswigga, ignore the pm I sent you.


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## Surveyor98 (Dec 12, 2003)

Personally I think it's a problem with Fox's transmitters not synching perfectly with the 622. The 622 freaks and can't handle it. This seemed to get worse AFTER the last update was downloaded. 

Oh, well. I'm going to be out of the country for a year or so. Was trying to get it fixed before I left so the girlfriend wouldn't have to deal with it. Maybe they will fix it before I get back. Thanks to everyone for all their input.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

FaxMan said:


> A FOX engineer here in Tallahassee says he's identified the problem and is working on the solution.
> 
> My fingers are crossed. Hopefully he can get connected with the folks in Austin. Or, if anybody on this board has any suggestions regarding "timing (pcr)", please speak up.


FAXMAN,
Is there someone in Tallahassee that we can tell the engineer here in Austin to contact for more info.

thanks


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## Vasanth B (Oct 13, 2005)

I tried both a 6dB and 10dB antennuator and can confirm this does not work. I have ViP 622, KTBC here in Austin, a roof-mounted CM-4228 antenna and good quality cabling. The problem started after KTBC made an "exciter upgrade" on their tower here in Austin. I can't post a link yet as I'm under 5 posts but find the 'Austin, TX' thread in the "Local HDTV Info and Reception" sub-forum under HDTV forum on AVSForum.com.

EDIT: These last few posts about the Talla Engineer seem like the first breakthrough in the chronic issue. I'll post something on AVSForum and point folks there to this thread to see if the poster there with the KTBC Engineer's ear can get him in touch with the Talla WTLH Engineer.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

I have sent an email to both the Fox 7 engineering dept. and an engineer at Fox 49 to try and get them on the same page. We will see where it goes.


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## jhr2112 (Dec 31, 2006)

Surveyor98 said:


> Any luck with the attenuator? I'm curious because I'll try it also if it works for you.


Well I tried putting a splitter in-line that has a 3db drop but no luck.He called me back yesterday and said he will send a 3db pad to me soon to see if this helps. I take it he wants the ota signal to be lower than 90, right now with the splitter in-line it is still 95. He said after putting the attenuator in-line we should let the receiver reprogram the locals in. I will let you know if this works..BTW, the signal meter on these receivers are for reference only and not any actual measurement of any kind, just there to help you aim an antenna.

I find it funny that the satellite signal is 110%. Ever tried to fill a glass 110%?


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## CricTic (Mar 17, 2006)

Thanks for the update. Please let the KTBC engineer know that if he needs more guinea pigs in the Austin area, I'm available (and I'm sure others on this board would jump at the chance as well).


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## Cokeswigga (Jan 25, 2005)

Cokeswigga said:


> I actually just orded an AP-4800 preamp, so I will update you next week, if this preamp works better. This is a higher gain pre-amp. Sometimes, during bad weather, the OTA signals drop to the 60's, so I amp hoping that this will help just a little.


****UPDATE******

The "upgraded pre-amp" only caused more problems. I actually removed the pre-amp and connected the antenna straight to the receiver and it works flawlessly.

So no pre-amp needed (for my setup) turns out the preamp was overloading the signal


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## FaxMan (Oct 14, 2003)

UT_Texan said:


> FAXMAN,
> Is there someone in Tallahassee that we can tell the engineer here in Austin to contact for more info.
> 
> thanks


I don't have a direct contact, but this thread at AVS Forum is where we're discussing it. (you may need to go up or down a few posts)


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

I live in Warrior, Alabama very hilly terrain and have had the 622 for about a month now. I have markets to the north and south of me. My preffered market is to the south and on my Hitachi with OTA tuner I get all channels with few dropouts unless bad weather but has trouble with the market to the north. But the 622 is just the opposite. Can't get Fox affiliate to the south at all but I get the market to the north with frequent dropouts unless perfect weather conditions. I have struggled greatly with this and tonight noticed there was a fair amount of heat on the 622. I raised it up about an inch hoping to improve cooling then started my ritual of trying to "fine tune my locals". I have a confidence level of about 1 out of 100 because the weather conditions are ideal tonight but my locals are 100% better so far. I still can't get FOX to the south but everything else is much more stable singnal levels only varying 3 or 4 points instead of 20 or more. I can only say I have my fingers crossed.


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

This problem with Fox may be more widespread than in the markets mentioned here so far. I live in the mountains of VA, have an attic mounted CM Stealthtenna and received all locals except Fox.

Most of the networks, including Fox, broadcast from a mountain top 7 miles to my west, ABC and WWCW are 24 miles east. My strongest signals have always been the eastern ones even though my antenna is pointed west, which means I'm probably being overshot somewhat by the closer networks. My 622 has never reported any signal from the Fox tower.

I do have one question. Does anyone know a what point the 622 locks on to a signal? My old receiver (Voom) would show whatever the signal strength it was getting and report "Locked On" or "Not Locked". The 622 shows zero on Fox but I can't help but wonder if in fact it's getting some signal, just not strong enough to lock.

I'm about to move my antenna outside which involves some very serious effort and am thinking it would be bad if my Fox signal was only a very few points below the 622's lock on point and all I really need to do is probe in my attic for a spot where I can get Fox. It's one thing to have zero signal, and another to have 49 and only need 50 to lock on. 

So, what's the lock on point of the 622?


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

I recorded "House" on Tuesday night but have not had a chance to watch it. I will report back if the audio is not working.

EDIT: I watched house last night and had no video or audio problems at all.


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

Oh well I am fairly certain that the heat was not the trouble. I still have a much more stable signal but I am experiencing a few more drop outs tonight than last night even though I still have good weather. I do get the FOX affiliate to the north with the 622 so I'm not sure that it can be blamed on FOX...


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## jhr2112 (Dec 31, 2006)

Surveyor98 said:


> Any luck with the attenuator? I'm curious because I'll try it also if it works for you.


I went out and purchased my own attenuator and that did not fix anything. I called Dish and talked to tech support and they claim they have never heard of this problem but would start a trouble ticket...I understand the locals will be in HD on the Sat sometime this year and that might be the only fix for this. As for now I don't watch fox anymore. I would switch to Directv but the upgrade fee for the 622 was a non refundable $200. If Dish or fox7 would call each other the problem might get resolved.


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## CricTic (Mar 17, 2006)

I just called 'em too ... interestingly enough the lady I talked to (really nice BTW) said she had an entry in the system for it. It wasn't helpful at all (contact the station, check antennaweb.org, etc.) but it seems like they're aware of it now.

I added my voice to yours, so maybe if enough people do that they'll be more driven to solve the problem (especially if other markets are seeing the same thing).


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

jhr2112 said:


> I went out and purchased my own attenuator and that did not fix anything. I called Dish and talked to tech support and they claim they have never heard of this problem but would start a trouble ticket...*I understand the locals will be in HD on the Sat sometime this year* and that might be the only fix for this. As for now I don't watch fox anymore. I would switch to Directv but the upgrade fee for the 622 was a non refundable $200. If Dish or fox7 would call each other the problem might get resolved.


Is this for everyone?


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## Tylast (May 27, 2006)

smackman said:


> Also the 622 locks up *EVERYTIME I scan and save* a change on OTA.


Same here. Takes exactly 60 seconds then everything goes dark. I have to pull the plug & wait for it to boot up again, but everything is fine after that. Is annoying though.


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

Tylast said:


> Same here. Takes exactly 60 seconds then everything goes dark. I have to pull the plug & wait for it to boot up again, but everything is fine after that. Is annoying though.


When it does this just hold the power button down for approx 10 seconds and it will go thru a soft reboot. No need to unplug. Every once in a while after I reboot the TV and receiver handshake does not work. When this happens I just change my tv from HDMI TO INPUT 1 THEN BACK TO HDMI.


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## goldieloxx (Jul 16, 2006)

I'm experiencing the same thing with FOX in the Tri Cities area of Washington state. 

I'm showing good signal strength but my receiver will not lock onto the signal. My VIP211 in another room is having the same problem. Those in my area with a D* tuner aren't having the same issue, so I think it's a E* problem.


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## Tylast (May 27, 2006)

smackman said:


> When it does this just hold the power button down for approx 10 seconds and it will go thru a soft reboot. No need to unplug. Every once in a while after I reboot the TV and receiver handshake does not work. When this happens I just change my tv from HDMI TO INPUT 1 THEN BACK TO HDMI.


Thanks!


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

I called Dish last night to report the problem as well. I had to escalate to a mgr to get a complaint logged and sent to the engineers but hopefully it will help. He still insisted it wasn't a problem with the 622. He made reference in the log that it was also occurring in Tall. Fl


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## gazookas (Jan 18, 2007)

Like some others, I was having trouble with my local Fox station (Ch. 45) in Baltimore on my OTA/DiP 622 combo. Picture would sporadically drop out or pixelate despite good signal strength (low to mid 80's). Other OTA channels seemed to be fine.

Went through a lot of steps with Dish tech rep including Dish sending a signal to the box, me rescanning locals, and rebooting receiver.

I don't know what signal the rep sent, but she said something about "fully activating the DVR to receive OTA". I was puzzled since I was getting OTA locals prior to the signal.

In any case, I am not 100% sure yet, but it seems to have helped. A *very* limited amount of watching Fox 45 has not shown any pixelation or dropouts.

I will try to post again to let everyone know if the problems are really gone or not.

Good luck to all!


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

It looks like there are some similarities with problems and FOX TV stations. The same holds true here. 

All other digital stations work fine here. The FOX station works fine on other than my 622 receivers. The signal will drop to zero and return it normally holds a steady 84 signal for the FOX station, but since they returned to the airwaves on January 10, 2007, having been off for two days, the signal fluctuates from 75 to 87. The video constantly pixelates and the moving images are choppy. When the signal drops to zero the yellow 739 error screen appears as does the information screen 316 appears for the FOX recorded programs. The symptoms are like those caused from multi-path, but this is not the case.

Engineers at the TV station inform that they had to replace an, "exciter" at the transmitter. The first and temporary replacement was a manufacturer loaner which had older software with known issues to some ATSC tuners. They replaced the loaner with a new exciter that is supposed to have new software resolving the issues, the same symptoms are still present. The TV station is working on the problem with the manufacturer. This makes me question if the other FOX stations have the same component and software which is causing the problem?

I contacted E* by phone two days ago. Tech support said there were no other reported problems. They sent a report to engineering. I also sent a detailed letter to E* as follow-up. 

It seems that generally, when there are minor problems with digital transmissions, the 622 (and my friends 211) have problems and will not work properly while the majority of other brand ATSC tuners in HDTV's, cable company ATSC tuners, and D* ATSC tuners work just fine. Even first generation ATSC tuners are working with this less than perfect signal problem.


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## FaxMan (Oct 14, 2003)

It appears that possibly a Fox Engineer in Memphis has found/fixed their variant of the problem.

Look up and down a few posts for the discussion, solution, results.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9513976&highlight=Axcera+DT2B#post9513976


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

Interesting post DTV Dave made regarding the manufacturer of this "exciter" device all of a sudden getting lots of calls from TV stations asking for the old firmware version.... I wonder if this could be related to a recent problem our local ABC (WKEF) has developed ?? In our 'local' case though, it's affecting far more than just E* and D* receivers. Even Time Warner customers are seeing it.


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## CricTic (Mar 17, 2006)

Awesome news!

Can someone get the word back to KTBC?


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

I sent them an email Sat. copying Tall. Fl and will try to follow up with a call today. I spoke to an engineer Friday but he was trying to tell me to download 6.3b (D*). I told him that wasn't for Dish but he wouldn't agree. Wish me luck today.


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## FaxMan (Oct 14, 2003)

I was just in contact with the Tallahassee Engineer. Unfortunately, they use different equipment so no easy fix here. He indicated that it seems to be PSIP related and is somewhat connected to the national feed.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

The station got the exciter problem fixed. The 622's are working well here.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

Well,
I spoke with the Chief engineer here in Austin and unfortunately the Memphis fix won't work for Austin. They use a different Exciter.
He was very knowledgeable and helpful in trying to put it in laymen's terms.
The sad part is there isn't anything he can do if Dish doesn't work with them. He said it may have something to do with the high frequency they have to broadcast on.
He did say that in Feb 2009 they will be able to broadcast on the VHF 07 frequency. So I guess there is light at the end of the tunnel, albeit 2 years from now.
He said they are willing to provide support for their viewers here but in order to do that they need a unit to beta test. According to the engineer Dish won't talk to them.
All Fox said is give us a beta unit to test, all we need is for the OTA piece to function. Does the receiver have to be activated in order for the OTA to work? Does it take a miracle for this to happen?

I think at this point is quite apparent that Fox is within the FCC regulations for transmission. I base this on the fact our TV's can pick up the signal and decode it just fine.
With that said Fox here in Austin won't take it further as this is their stance as well.
I find it funny that our fellow Austinites with D* had the same problem with their receivers until a recent sw patch of 6.3b corrected their issues.

Does anyone know what changes D* made to their tuner to pick it up? Can we find out?

So this is a plea for Dish Network and their engineers to get in touch with the engineers at Fox here in Austin to see what can be fixed either by Fox or Dish Network.
If they would like his contact information I received his ok to pass it along.


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## CricTic (Mar 17, 2006)

Maybe you should email [email protected] (or whatever the fast track customer service address is)? I would do it myself but since you have been in contact with the KTBC guys you would probably be a better go-between.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

That is my next step. I have worked with someone over there in the past. They were very helpful.

I am first going to see if I get help from this forum first before I go that route.


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

I spoke with my local Fox affiliate in Birmingham, Al. He too is working on a fix for this problem. I am very impressed with the assistance provided so far. Birmingham also has a different exciter so the Memphis fix won't work here either. I would like to say thanks to everyone for posting this information and keeping us all informed.


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## FaxMan (Oct 14, 2003)

I wonder if possibly Birmingham, Austin, and Tallahassee all have the same equipment or if we could encourage the engineers to talk with each other?

UT_Texan, regarding frequency. Our Fox affiliate broadcasts on digital 50 here in Tallahassee. The local CBS channel is on 46 though and comes in just fine. What Freq are you on?

Folks who have any kind of HD tuner other than the 622 are able to receive the Fox signal just fine.


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## austindude (Jan 23, 2007)

I have the same problem here in Cedar Park. The signal strength goes from the 80's to 0 and the signal is lost. It makes FOX unwatchable.

This problem started around 3 weeks ago.

I have a ViP211.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

FaxMan,
Fox is on Freq 56.1 uhf is what I believe he said but comes in as channel 7.1. They use a "tallus" exciter here in Austin. Not sure about the spelling. I get channels on 54 and 62 just fine but not sure what their freq is.

I sent an email last week and this weekend to both Tallahassee and Austin.
Tall. mentioned that it might be related to a "pcr" issue.

I am going to give it a day or two to see if we get support from someone here before I contact the executive office of E*.

*I ask anyone who is having issues receiving their FOX OTA to contact E* and report it and insist a complaint be logged that is sent to the engineers.*

The only way this will get resolved is if E* and Fox stations work together to discover the issue so that one of them can implement a fix.


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

Birmingham, Al. Fox is UHF Channel 50 also I am having trouble with our NBC affiliate which is channel 52 but I am receiving CBS channel 30 and PBS channel 53 and CW which is channel 28. All of these stations are within 1 degree from my location and all at 28.6 - 28.8 miles away and I get all of them on my TV with no trouble at all. As a matter of fact Fox may very well be the strongest OTA station through the TV tuner. By the way the transmitter is Birmingham is a Larcan with a Zenith/LG exciter.


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

Email from Dish Network... I can see that they are really concerned. If this is not kosher someone please remove this. Thanks.

Dear Mr. X,

Thank you for your e-mail. Unfortunately, we cannot guarantee reception of non-DISH Network programming with our receivers. We do apologize for the inconvenience.

We hope we have properly addressed your concerns. If you have further questions you can respond to this e-mail or access our online technical support at the following link: http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/index.shtml.

Thanks,

**** *.

Technical E-mail Support

Dish Network


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## FaxMan (Oct 14, 2003)

UT_Texan said:


> *I ask anyone who is having issues receiving their FOX OTA to contact E* and report it and insist a complaint be logged that is sent to the engineers.*


Any suggestion regarding which method or phone number to talk to them to make sure that we don't just get lost in the shuffle?


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## makers78 (Jan 23, 2007)

UT_Texan said:


> FaxMan,
> Fox is on Freq 56.1 uhf is what I believe he said but comes in as channel 7.1. They use a "tallus" exciter here in Austin. Not sure about the spelling. I get channels on 54 and 62 just fine but not sure what their freq is.
> 
> I


According to AntennaWeb.org:

channel frequency
62 (KAKW) 13
54 (KNVA) 49
7 (KTBC) 56


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

To those who are a having a problem with one OTA channel, you might want to try my work-around. Can't promise it will work and it seems a bit counter-intuitive, but inserting a large amount of attenuation in the antenna feed stopped my 622 receiver from having intermittent still frames, pixelation, sound motorboating, and signal loss error messages on one of my local channels. I had to insert over 20 dB of attenuation where the signal strength dropped to the mid 70s before it stopped acting up. This is a band-aid and not a solution to the problem.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

I have sent a note over to my contact in the executive office and to [email protected] for help.


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

UT_Texan said:


> I have sent a note over to my contact in the executive office and to [email protected] for help.


Thanks, I reported my work-around to Dish's technical group. Hard to tell whether it got through to the right people or not. Also, since I'm not aware of anyone else trying this band-aid, I can't be sure if this is just a fluke situation in my case.


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## cwc (Jan 28, 2007)

Surveyor98 said:


> Any luck with the attenuator? I'm curious because I'll try it also if it works for you.


I am a new Dish Network subscriber this month, with a 622 and a 211. I am having the same issue with both receivers. I have an OTA antenna in the attic and all the other local channels are received with a signal of 85 - 100 and all lock just fine. 7.1 gets a signal of 90-94 and then it goes to 0 with the same unlock or pixelations. I have tried amplifiers at the antenna output but that has not worked.

I would definitely like to know if the attenuator solves the problem. I hate having to watch "24" in SD.

CW


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

cwc said:


> I would definitely like to know if the attenuator solves the problem. I hate having to watch "24" in SD.
> 
> CW


FWIW, Here's a source.


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## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

I'm a new Dish subscriber in Austin who also has been having the dropout problems on my 622 for OTA KTBC Fox 7.1. I do not have this issue when i tune directly using the tuner in my Sony Bravia. I have gone a little pyscho trying out every indoor antenna i could get my hands on hoping it would help. While i was trying to get the 622's signal for OTA as high as possible which seems to make sense (higher than the 85 or so i seem to get regardless of the brand of antenna), the worse the dropouts got. I have found that a signal in the 60 to 70 range eliminates the dropouts. That then causes low signal on all the other Austin OTA channels, so it isnt an option for me...But there has gotta be something to Fox not liking a strong signal...what in the strong signal is overloading the 622... Admit i'm not a techie on any of this, just something to think about...


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

FitzAusTex said:


> I have found that a signal in the 60 to 70 range eliminates the dropouts. That then causes low signal on all the other Austin OTA channels, so it isnt an option for me...But there has gotta be something to Fox not liking a strong signal...what in the strong signal is overloading the 622... Admit i'm not a techie on any of this, just something to think about...


Thanks for this input. At least I now know I'm not the only one that has found lowering the signal to the mid-seventies solved the drop-out problem. I ended up with a switch that is set to provide attenuation for my problem station and then it allows me to remove the attenuation when I watch weaker channels. Not a great situation but it works.

BTW, I think there is something in the problem signal that causes the 622 to loose sync, but it's reported as a lost signal. It isn't overloading the 622.


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

I am hoping that since it has been since January since anyone has posted that this hasn't gone away. I keep checking back to see if there has been any further developments but it seems rather quite.


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

bstech said:


> I am hoping that since it has been since January since anyone has posted that this hasn't gone away. I keep checking back to see if there has been any further developments but it seems rather quite.


It hasn't gone away for me. I'm still switching attenuation in or out depending which channel I'm watching. This past week, the signal strength increased a bit on my problem station and the pic started breaking up. Couldn't increase attenuation. Hope this is just a short term problem.


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

Not that I want to hog this thread, but there has been some confirmation about one way to get around the problem of signal dropouts. It appears there is a very narrow window where the 622 is not affected by whatever is causing the problem. Several of us have been successful in getting a stable picture by making sure the reported signal strength of the problem station is kept around the 68-72 range. Maybe you might want to check this out.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Barrysb said:


> Not that I want to hog this thread, but there has been some confirmation about one way to get around the problem of signal dropouts. It appears there is a very narrow window where the 622 is not affected by whatever is causing the problem. Several of us have been successful in getting a stable picture by making sure the reported signal strength of the problem station is kept around the 68-72 range. Maybe you might want to check this out.


Barrysb,

This is very interesting information. I'll try and see if I can attenuate my affected signal so it is between the 68-72 range, so to see if that works. The attenuation that I've tried had caused it to be lower than that range and the problem still remains.


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## Traveler62 (Nov 20, 2006)

Traveler62 said:


> I have the same issue with PBS HD channels 19-1 through 19-4 here in Kansas City. I posted the issue on the Local HDTV issues section of AVS forum for Kansas City (as per one mods advice, thanks!) and found another 622 owner is seeing the same thing exactly. I figure it is something the station is sending in the signal that the 622 doesn't like. I told an engineer at the station about the problem, but they didn't seem too concerned. I do get good signal strength on these channels (about 93), but every few seconds, the strength drops and then comes back. If you are seeing weak strengths on all channels, the OTA tuner on the 622 may be bad.
> 
> This forced me to buy the locals package which at least I get program info now too, that is nice. Would be nicer if it was free.


This problem was resolved about 2 weeks ago here in KC. I talked to the engineer at the PBS Station and he has been working with the Dish techs to resolve this and was glad it was working. The issue must have been fixed with a nightly update by Dish.
I would suggest those still having problems to check the Local HDTV issues mentioned above for your city and see if others are having the same issue.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Since this was an OTA issue... most likely an update on the station end fixed the issue not an update by Dish.


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

Yeah, this issue was not a Dish one 'cause there haven't been any updates for a few months.... The "nightly update" you refer to is nothing more than downloading guide data.


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## jas88 (Feb 8, 2007)

OK, so still no love from Fox 7, UT_Texan?


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

boylehome said:


> Barrysb,
> 
> This is very interesting information. I'll try and see if I can attenuate my affected signal so it is between the 68-72 range, so to see if that works. The attenuation that I've tried had caused it to be lower than that range and the problem still remains.


Once the signal drops to around 65, I find the picture starts breaking up again but this is probably due to lack of signal and not what is causing a similar problem, but different cause, at signal levels above 75.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Barrysb said:


> Once the signal drops to around 65, I find the picture starts breaking up again but this is probably due to lack of signal and not what is causing a similar problem, but different cause, at signal levels above 75.


As posted in the other forum, the problem in our DMA with FOX digital is from the transmitter. I've tried the attenuation, antenna adjustment, cabling, amplification, and antenna placement. At first there seemed some promise but was only a coincidence in that the station had made some adjustment at the same time. Yesterday they made a devastating change to their transmission that is now affecting a wide variety of receivers, extending beyond the the ViP series. So as it stands, the station and the exciter/modulator manufacturer must get the bugs ironed out. It was worth the experimenting, only if it would have helped.

*For any others out there that are experiencing similar problems and nothing is working, it is important to call the station and inform them of the symptoms. They can't see the problem. The more people that call the same station will result in quicker repair. It is also a good idea to visit your local DMA OTA site at AVSForum to see if others are posting similar problems:* http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45


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## jasmkk (Feb 17, 2007)

I'm here in Milwaukee and have also had the dropout problems with Fox 6 locally. I complained to Dish and they're sending me a new VIP622. However in the meantime I found this thread. I got a "variety pak" of attenuators and have the same success in removing the dropouts with the right amount of attenuation - in my case I'm at 73. It also appears to work down to 67-68 as mentioned previously but then I have too much attenuation on some of the other channels. After reading this thread I don't expect much from the new VIP622 but I'll see what happens when it arrives.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

I have had no success in talking to someone that is in a position to help at Dish.
As posted previously several of us have talked extensively to our local Fox station but they need to work with Dish to see if there is anything they or Dish can do and Dish isn't cooperating.

I too have tried the attenuation but have had little sucess. At first I thought it was working but then the problem came back and I didn't change anything. I have tried the high 60's and low 70's. When I get to the 60's I lose NBC 36.1

I don't understand why the TV manufacturer can install or build a tuner that works fine but the 622 is flaky. I also can't understand why DTV found the problem and fixed it on their end and Dish techs claim it is the Local station that is to blame.

Ron, is there any news on whether or not the next release will update the tuner in the 622?

The other solution would be to get Austin locals via Dish in HD.

Wish me luck as I keep trying to hammer Dish. I will continue to pester Dish till this gets solved.


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

Just got a 622 installed this week in Austin. Same issues as everyone else with Fox OTA. Attenuation isn't an answer as Fox is one of my strongest channels, so adding enough to drop Fox's signal level will make other channels too weak to come in.

I'll go ahead and submit a trouble ticket with Dish so they know more folks are having the problem.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

UT_Texan said:


> Ron, is there any news on whether or not the next release will update the tuner in the 622?


None that I have heard. Mark would know more than me.. I just know what i read here.

As for hammering.. Keep doing it, but remember.. Just because one tuner does not have the problem or makes a fix to fix their problem does not make the other tuner with what seems to be the same problem the tuners issue.

Definitely complex stuff and really hard root cause from our end. As for who is cooperating.. Why do you feel Dish is not? Was there some indication from the Station that this is the case?


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

TechniKal said:


> Just got a 622 installed this week in Austin. Same issues as everyone else with Fox OTA. Attenuation isn't an answer as Fox is one of my strongest channels, so adding enough to drop Fox's signal level will make other channels too weak to come in.
> 
> I'll go ahead and submit a trouble ticket with Dish so they know more folks are having the problem.


The more information we can feed Dish the better. Attenuation may not be the answer for you but it might help them identify the problem if you can confirm attenuation does work in your situation.


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## brian boe (Feb 11, 2007)

Hi all, came over from avs forum. Great site for dish subs. Recently I started having the same problem with my local Fox affiliate. When viewing Fox 6 the signal comes in, then drops out. It will come in for about 30 seconds then lose signal for 5-10 seconds and it repeats this for as long as I can stand to watch it . I also plugged the rg6 directly into to box but it didn't help. I have a Hitachi 55hdt51 plasma, the 622 receiver and a winegaurd 8200 antenna with a preamp. The signal is around the 93-98 range most of the time with Fox 6 and then it drops to 0 intermittedly. I called cs and they claimed nobody else has ever had this problem. Good training huh:nono2:. I will do more checking and post back. I believe Fox6 broadcasts on channel 33. I switched the antenna to Fox32 from Chicago and it works great.

Btw got the 622 in November and had no problems the first 3 months.


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## brian boe (Feb 11, 2007)

Anyone think this has something to do with d and fox both being owned by Ruppert Murdock. Why would fox care if dish network 622s don't work on their signal. Just a thought:eek2:


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## CricTic (Mar 17, 2006)

Maybe it's time to escalate the issue to Fox? It can't be a coincidence that so many Fox affiliates around the country are having similar issues.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

brian boe said:


> Btw got the 622 in November and had no problems the first 3 months.


Since the 622 software has not been updated in this time period and the issue is OTA based, this would lead me to think one of the following.

1) Upstream hardware change/configuration introducing the issue.
2) Slow type of failure in your 622 causing issue to surfice.
3) Possible Antenna installation issue cropping up over time.

#1 is the most likely cause. That is the one I would work on first. You can rule out #2 with a receiver swap and #3 can be ruled out if other equipement is ok hooked up to the same connection.


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

CricTic said:


> Maybe it's time to escalate the issue to Fox? It can't be a coincidence that so many Fox affiliates around the country are having similar issues.


 The coincidence is that, as I understand things with FOX, is that they control the HD signal entirely. With other networks, the local stations receive the signal and run it through their equipment for transmission to viewers. In the case of FOX, much of this "equipment" is skipped. The term I've heard used is "splice".

Not related to FOX, but in most cases where receiver owners (of the same type) all of a sudden start reporting issues with OTA of a specific station, the station has made a change on their end that's potentially incompatible with different receivers. My local ABC made an equipment change a month or so ago and initially it was 622 owners who reported problems (from the Dayton HDTV thread at AVS). As more people started seeing the problem, other receivers came into the mix. Guess what ?? The local ABC updated software on an "exciter" they use. This same "exciter" was a fairly popular piece of equipment across the country and others reported it too. The solution for the time being was to roll back to the previous software.


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## luvjava (Aug 24, 2004)

Barrysb said:


> The more information we can feed Dish the better. Attenuation may not be the answer for you but it might help them identify the problem if you can confirm attenuation does work in your situation.


Here are my two cents:
I'm a Dish network customer for over 10 years, and just upgraded from an 811 to a 622VIP.
along with that I upgraded to having signal drop-outs.
For the past 2 years I've had NO problem that I can remember with my OTA signal.

I live in a 3 story house, 2 blocks from the Chesapeake bay, with clear shot across the bay with an external Radio Shack Omni/Directional antenna (sorry, cant tell you what model) 
Between 18 and 20 miles to the all of the DTV transmitters in the area. all stations are between 211 and 228 degrees (compass heading)
My antenna is pointed to where I get max signal (avg. across stations)
My 622 shows minimum signal for stations as 96, and max at 100.

I have had the same antenna setup for over two years, the signal is diplexed with my Sat signal and comes into my house on the contractor installed coax.

It appears that I only have an issue with one station (that I've seen so far)
WAVY-DT (Chan 10.1, Freq. assignment 31)

I had a problem with this same station a few years ago, when I got my 811, it seems that they were broadcasting the incorrect date/time (6 months off) and every time I tuned to the station with my 811 it set the time on the receiver, and when I tuned back to Sat programing, it thought my receiver had not been use in 6 months, and re-downloaded the EPG. 
A few calls fixed that (after a receiver replacement)

I hope this adds to the data other are collecting.

Bill
Hampton Va.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

Ron,
Thanks for the update,
I have spoken to the chief eng. at our Fox station and he said nobody from Dish has contacted him. I have reported the issue 3 times (tonight being the 3rd). Everytime I call they state there are no other reports of this issue. I will give them the benefit of the doubt here because I don't know what they are checking against. I have sent several emails to dishquality and to the CEO's office to no avail. I have also called someone in the executive office twice and haven't received a callback yet.

The eng. at Fox would be glad to help if he had a unit to test so he could provide feedback to Fox.

I do understand your point on the different tuners but I still firmly believe the issue lies with Dish more than anyone else. DTV tuner works fine now, our various branded TV's built-in tuner works fine. I just think the 622 is more sensitive for whatever reason. I wish I was more of a techie when it came to broadcasting.

Crictic,
I think it would be much more difficult to get Fox to change something rather than Dish since our Tv's built-in tuner picks the station up fine. However, if our local Fox station had a 622 to test they might find a solution they could implement from their end.


Hall,
The exicter issue doesn't apply to our case nor the one in Tallahassee. They have a completely different mfr. at least per the chief eng. I am not though ruling out that Fox stations could make a change to fix the issue.


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

UT_Texan said:


> I do understand your point on the different tuners but I still firmly believe the issue lies with Dish more than anyone else. DTV tuner works fine now, our various branded TV's built-in tuner works fine. I just think the 622 is more sensitive for whatever reason. I wish I was more of a techie when it came to broadcasting.


To check if we all experiencing the same problem, I recommend each of you trying out something like this, to see if it helps to stabilize the output of the 622. This works for me and I reported it to Dish. (Can't tell if the info got to the 622 design team or not.) The amount of attenuation needed will probably depend on your initial signal level. I start out with a reported level of 88+ and inserting 20 dB brings the level down to about 72. This gives me a stable picture for the problem station but then my weaker stations with the same attenuation start breaking up.

I have a theory why this works but can't get any agreement from the Director of Engineering at the problem station to confirm this possibility. I think what I'm doing with this work-around is stabilizing the AGC of the tuner. For those of you who may not be familier with this function, it stands for "Automatic Gain Control". In a digital system, the tuner uses information in the recovered digital waveform to set the gain of the tuner. I think something in the received signal is corrupting this system and causing wild gyrations.

Bottom line, if everyone has the same results and this is reported to Dish, it might make it easier for them to resolve the problem. Although, if this function is totally etched in silicon, it may not be easy to implement a solution.


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

Isn't this a relatively recent problem? It seems like it used to work fine, then around October/November, it stopped. I just got my 622, so I don't know for sure - but that's what seems to be the case based on postings I've read.

If that's indeed the case, it would seem to exclude a 'unfixable' hardware issue. Either Dish's software changed or the broadcast changed. Of course, Dish and/or Fox may not really care about fixing the problem - so it may end up being 'unfixable' after all.


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

TechniKal said:


> Isn't this a relatively recent problem? It seems like it used to work fine, then around October/November, it stopped. I just got my 622, so I don't know for sure - but that's what seems to be the case based on postings I've read.
> 
> If that's indeed the case, it would seem to exclude a 'unfixable' hardware issue. Either Dish's software changed or the broadcast changed. Of course, Dish and/or Fox may not really care about fixing the problem - so it may end up being 'unfixable' after all.


Some people have noted their problem started when the stations went to high power.


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

Barrysb said:


> Some people have noted their problem started when the stations went to high power.


Maybe that's why add attenuation works - that seems to effectively lower the 'perceived' transmission power.

Strange thing is, I have a couple of other stations that have higher signal levels than the Fox station that's giving me trouble - 2 that are at '100%' according the the 622, and none of those cause any trouble.

Interesting problem. Annoying issue, though.


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

attenuation doesn't work for me. I have tried from about 56-78. Sometimes it helps sometimes it doesn't. It is hard to find the sweet spot when it isn't consistent.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

For the past several days the FOX station here has been working on the transmitter during the day. When they switch the transmitter to full power it becomes erratic, worse than the original problem. The problem now extends beyond my 622's and affects all my ATSC tuners. Like you UT-Texan, attenuation doesn't work. This problem actually makes my TC-32LE60 ATSC tuner show that the signal is only at around 36 when the other receivers show a signal between 88 - 91. When they switch back to low power, the signal level returns to 74 for the TC-32LE60 tuner.

Because of what I'm seeing Barrysb, it is possible that their transmission is causing severe problems with the AGC.

Funny thing, now the signal negatively affects the other tuners worse than the 622 tuners!

Also, the FOX station here was working excellently at full power for months, until they used a new version of firmware for the exciter/modulator. It also worked fine when they had the firmware rolled back to the previous no-buggy firmware version.

The FOX station apparently doesn't change the firmware on their own, but rather send the exciter to the manufacturer for updates. At this point in time, they have a pretty serious problem that hopefully will get fixed soon with good firmware.


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

UT_Texan said:


> attenuation doesn't work for me. I have tried from about 56-78. Sometimes it helps sometimes it doesn't. It is hard to find the sweet spot when it isn't consistent.


You have to be very careful when setting attenuation that you let the receiver settle down before making a judgement. Plus the sweet spot is a very narrow range. In my case, I have no problem when the reported signal strength is 68-72. Much higher or lower than that I experience picture breakup.


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

boylehome said:


> The problem now extends beyond my 622's and affects all my ATSC tuners. Like you UT-Texan, attenuation doesn't work. This problem actually makes my TC-32LE60 ATSC tuner show that the signal is only at around 36 when the other receivers show a signal between 88 - 91. When they switch back to low power, the signal level returns to 74 for the TC-32LE60 tuner.
> 
> Because of what I'm seeing Barrysb, it is possible that their transmission is causing severe problems with the AGC.


A couple of things:

1. Signal strength readings may not be reporting actual antenna signal levels in most receivers. That's why I keep referring to "reported signal strength." The receiver circuitry is actually reporting encountered data errors. Low signal = high # of errors and High signal = low # of errors.

2. AGC stability is a theory based on my observations and how I've been able to control picture dropout. I'm not able to come to any other conclusions as to what is happening in other cases, particularly those where attenuation hasn't worked. The Dish engineers need to talk with the transmitter manufacturer engineers to explore this and other possibilites. I just found out this is happening in my area. Hopefully the talks will be fruitful.


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## Unclejeff (Mar 10, 2004)

I watch ballbames on FOX, using OTA signal. Otherwise, why bother....?


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

Unclejeff said:


> I watch ballbames on FOX, using OTA signal. Otherwise, why bother....?


What's a ballbame?:lol:


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Barrysb said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> 1. Signal strength readings may not be reporting actual antenna signal levels in most receivers. That's why I keep referring to "reported signal strength." The receiver circuitry is actually reporting encountered data errors. Low signal = high # of errors and High signal = low # of errors.


 Yes, when they switch on the bad transmitter to full power, the TC-32LE60 meter reading drops 30 points while the other ATSC tuner meter reading increase to the usual level.



Barrysb said:


> 2. AGC stability is a theory based on my observations and how I've been able to control picture dropout. I'm not able to come to any other conclusions as to what is happening in other cases, particularly those where attenuation hasn't worked. The Dish engineers need to talk with the transmitter manufacturer engineers to explore this and other possibilites. I just found out this is happening in my area. Hopefully the talks will be fruitful.


It is a theory at this point, but it may help solve the problem so I have passed this information along to engineering at the TV station.


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## stvince (Dec 27, 2005)

It's not just the 622 that is having the problem. I have the 211 and I am having the same symptoms. I have also heard that the problem exists for non-Dish HD-tuners also. I have spoken to an engineer at Fox 6 and was told that they had upgraded their equipment recently.



jasmkk said:


> I'm here in Milwaukee and have also had the dropout problems with Fox 6 locally. I complained to Dish and they're sending me a new VIP622. However in the meantime I found this thread. I got a "variety pak" of attenuators and have the same success in removing the dropouts with the right amount of attenuation - in my case I'm at 73. It also appears to work down to 67-68 as mentioned previously but then I have too much attenuation on some of the other channels. After reading this thread I don't expect much from the new VIP622 but I'll see what happens when it arrives.


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## CricTic (Mar 17, 2006)

Anyone know what HDTV tuner chipset the 622 uses, if any other equipment uses that chipset, and if these other products are also experiencing issues?


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## rustamust (Feb 22, 2006)

Here in Colo. Springs Co. ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS Signal levels OTA are 95-100 with 0 dropouts for the three weeks I've had 622. Fox is my lowest signal at 70-75 still no dropouts. All of the towers are on the same hill within 2 degrees of each other. I do not know if any or all networks are at full or partial power. I only watch a few hours on FOX and 8-10 hours on CBS. This past Sun. about 6 hours of Fox (Nascar) and do not remember any dropouts at all. My antenna is a 10 year old RS 5 element 6' boom and about 7 miles from towers with a clear line of sight.


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

It uses a Broadcom chip(set), if I recall. Either the 622 review here or at SatGuys mentions this or showed pictures of it.

http://www.soccentral.com/results.asp?CategoryID=552&entryID=17542


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

The station has yet to solve the problem for the 622/211, They have made big improvements for reception on my Panasonic HDTV's. I don't have specific details on what they are doing, but during the day for about the past two weeks, they have been troubleshooting. Two days ago, they had things working pretty well at full power for the 622, but the signal adversely affected my TC-32LE60. It was so bad that the TC-32LE60's signal was hanging around 40 while the 622 signal was 95. Today the signal is affecting the 622's so severely that the channel is unwatchable, worse than anytime in the past. The Panasonic receivers are working pretty well and signal levels are at normal levels. 

Being that the 622's are working so badly now, I decided to reduce the signal strengths to see if it would help. As soon as I got the signal down to 74 the audio/video stabilized without further problem. Now the attenuation factor is working. 

The station only provides limited information about their troubleshooting. They say that they send the exciter/modulator to the manufacture for repair while using a loaner. I theorize that they have been testing different exciters, each having some different type of modification. It would be nice if they could leave it at the older firmware version that worked well with all receivers.


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## jasmkk (Feb 17, 2007)

After complaining to Dish, they sent me a replacment VIP622. Just activated it yesterday, wasn't expecting anything different, but to my surprise our local Fox station is perfect with it! (at least so far). I'm returning the other one with a detailed description of the problem as well as DVR'ed episode of "24" that is full of dropouts, as an example.


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## stinkmeat (Jan 30, 2007)

I'm a new Dish subscriber experiencing dropouts on the VIP622 that I've had for a week now. I'm not sure if it's the same problem the rest of you are having though.

The wierd thing about the dropouts is if I rewind it, all of the material is there. I'll be watching it (seems to happen only with OTA & mainly if I am recording the same show that I am watching) and it will freeze up for a couple of seconds and then continue, skipping ahead a few seconds. 

I'm thinking this may be due to overheating? Maybe I should get a chillmat like somebody suggested in another thread? Any suggestions?


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

The laptop coolers are not very expensive and we all know heat kills electronic gear. If you think you may have a heat problem, go ahead and do something about it. The diag menu has a counters button. Click that and the HDD temps are down about 4 pages. Use the page down remote key.


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## luvjava (Aug 24, 2004)

Update from Hampton, installed splitter (-4db) and another -10db inline and have received no drop outs today.....
WAVY-DT is at 68 on the meter of the 622 and steady..
but lost a few other stations due to low signal

Bill


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## fmcomputer (Oct 14, 2006)

Surveyor98 said:


> Spoke with an advance techie today. She said I've done all the troubleshooting I can do, so they will send me a replacement unit since it looks like the 622 is not dealing with the signal stream properly. I should have it by Thursday!


I went through the samething about three months ago with the OTA VIP622 (Three different units). I spent over $600.00 on different equipment trying to get OTA to work with the 622. Bottom line if it works GREAT if it does'nt. don't mess with it.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

I was hoping that the the work between E* and Axcera, regarding the signal problems that they are working on, would have been resolved. The problem still exists. Having communicated with E* and with the supportive information in other post, the possibility for a fix in the next software update was thought hopeful. There is no change respective to the latest ViP 622 L366 software update.


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## jas88 (Feb 8, 2007)

I think the attenuator thing has fixed mine. Last night I recabled so I could get the Fox channel in my VCR so I could use that tuner (my upstairs tv is a monitor only) for Ch 7. So I split the incoming antenna signal and then added 1 attenuator that I found in the box for the 622. Now the signal strength on Ch 7 is 72 and it looks fine. All my other locals work as well (interestingly, Ch 24 is still a 98 SS) with Ch 36 being the only one that has any trouble, even tho SS is 89 there. It pixelates a bit when you first tune it in, then it seems to be fine thereafter. I will have to do some more long-term watching to say for sure, but last night it was fine.

Did Fox/E* fix this, or did I just get lucky? How big is the attenuator that comes with the 622?


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## sxhat (Mar 2, 2007)

I think you got lucky. I'm still having issues with Fox in Austin. I'm going to try an attenuator this weekend to see if it helps. But it seems like we still need to 'push' with E* and Fox locally.


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

sxhat said:


> I think you got lucky. I'm still having issues with Fox in Austin. I'm going to try an attenuator this weekend to see if it helps. But it seems like we still need to 'push' with E* and Fox locally.


You are so right - the attenuator is not a fix rather a work-around. E* and the transmitter manufacturers have to work out this compatibility problem. We can push E* but the CE at the local stations have to push their x-mitter suppliers. BTW, it is not just a Fox problem and more than one transmitter manufacturer is invloved as well.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Barrysb said:


> ...BTW, it is not just a Fox problem and more than one transmitter manufacturer is invloved as well.


The attenuation has worked reasonably well here for the past couple of days. This fix is far from perfect. Agreed Barrysb, but the manufacturer with the troubled part here has more than FOX TV stations as customers. Quite possibly they have other models of exciters that use the same firmware. It is odd that the the manufacturers equipment has worked pretty well early on, with exception for recent releases. Where is that firmware fix?


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Barrysb said:


> I have a theory why this works but can't get any agreement from the Director of Engineering at the problem station to confirm this possibility. I think what I'm doing with this work-around is stabilizing the AGC of the tuner.


OK, Barrysb I have some thoughts that may add to this discussion. I was an EMC engineer for several years and obviously approach this problem from an RF perspective first and I think it could be an RF reception issue, and here's why.

I think it might be a gain-bandwidth issue, or of course a gain control problem like you suggested, with the preamplifier in the antenna input on the 622. Looking at the relevant (digital, UHF) channels in Austin that are all in approx the same transmitter location, you have the following:

KXAN-DT	21
KLRU-DT	22
KVUE-DT	33
KEYE-DT	43
KNVA-DT	49
KTBC-DT	56

Our problem child is KTBC-DT. That's the highest frequency channel. KVUE is the strongest signal by far and KXAN is #2 both near the bottom of the UHF range, while KTBC-DT is at the top of the range. So, my suspicion is that either one of two things is happening:

1. maybe AGC issue as you suggested, maybe not the issue you are suggesting, but it could be that KVUE signal strength is causing the gain to be turned down on the preamplifier and therefore rolling off too much top end response to reliably receive FOX

2. gain-bandwidth inadequacy, since the amplitude of the mid-band is so high and broad in spectrum, we get distortion in the amplifier at the top end of the bandwidth and it causes an excessive error rate in the KTBC signal.

So I don't think attenuating KTBC is the answer. My original idea, when hearing about people's problems, was hey, let's just attenuate KTBC only with a tuned antenna out of phase with the main antenna and knock KTBC's signal on 56 down to the 68-72% range and it should work. However I don't think that's the case. In fact I think it's the other way around. I think if we were to selectively attenuate KVUE on ch. 33 by like 20+ dB then it could alleviate the issue on KTBC without costing any broad-band attenuation of other channels so they cannot be reliably received (KLRU for example, and of course KNVA).

This all makes some sense to me since most broad-use UHF/VHF antennas are going to be more efficient (have more gain/amplitude) in the lower and mid-band of UHF than they will at the top end where KTBC resides, and if it's a UHF/VHF combo antenna then the VHF part if it is going to add some gain to the lower end of the UHF range but add very little to the top end. Given that I have a simple UHF-only antenna it simplifies my issue, but I think either a smaller bowtie antenna (less efficient on the low end) or even adding a dipole for KTBC to boost the level would probably help considerably. I will probably experiment with adding a ch-56 tuned dipole to my antenna so that FOX alone is boosted and see if maybe that, plus a broad-band attenuator, will fix it.

What I think we are observing with the "sweet spot" of 68-72% (which I confirmed works here for me) for FOX is due to 68% being about the low end of where we can reliably get the signal under the gain conditions of the preamplifier, and when we adjust the system so that the FOX signal is above 72% or so, then the other signals are so hot that they cause the distortion problem I am suggesting could be the cause of the problem.

I tested this by putting a 10dB attenuator on my system and rotating the antenna off-axis and noted that even 90 degrees off-axis (which should be heavily attenuated), KVUE continues to have near 100% and FOX is below 68% and drops out. So certainly as the antenna is rotated, FOX (even with the 10dB attenuator) will get 90+ % when it is aimed correctly but KVUE still is "near 100%". So I presume that either KVUE is clipping the preamp, or the gain is attenuated in order to prevent it, and that may be causing the problem with KTBC. I did happen to find a 'sweet spot' of rotation of my antenna where I can get all of the channels including FOX reliably but I am interested in a more robust and elegant solution.

In the end if I am correct in my theory, then no software fix is going to fix it. I don't think it's a transmission stream issue (like a data encoding issue) because if it were, then it would be irrelevant to signal strength unless it simply raised the floor. The fact that it is tuner-specific (622, 211) leads me to suspect hardware, and the fact that it's only the highest-frequency channel having a problem leads me to suspect the preamplifier or other receiver hardware (by receiver, I mean RF).

Just muddying the waters a bit  I hear KTBC-DT is going to get put back on VHF and if that happens then we can test my theory  Or otherwise if someone wants to crack open their 622 and hack into the RF board we can probe it with a spectrum analyzer and see exactly what's going on with the spectrum under the Austin broadcast conditions. Otherwise I guess we just speculate. If I can come up with a simple, add-on solution that works I'll post more about it later.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Further muddying the waters ...

or maybe gathering more data...

what cities/stations are experiencing these problems? Can you post the UHF digital TV channel assignments in that area, maybe with signal strength info? You can get this info from antenaweb (the channel assignment, if its >13 then it's UHF).

I am also trying to understand how the manufacturer of the "exciter" part of the transmitter could be involved in this. Makes me wonder if it's truly just one consistent problem being reported all over the USA. I could be just barking up the wrong tree. I guess since mine is working I should just shut up and be happy but if it is an RF problem that I can help fix (work around), then sign me up.


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## andrewsabin (Mar 3, 2007)

I've had the same dropouts everyone is describing on 26-1 KPLR-DT (CW Network) in St. Louis. In this case it's the lowest UHF digital station in St. Louis, the highest is 56-1. 

Interestingly, since the latest update for my 211 receivers, I haven't had any dropouts on 26-1. I'm hopeful the latest firmware update has fixed the problem on the 211 and the next update for the 622 will also fix our dropout problems. Have others with the 211 experienced this?

Thanks,
Andrew


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

Great to have your expertise on this.

If it's an issue with the hardware of the 622, why would it have worked reliably for folks prior to November?


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

People blame the hardware too often. Not counting the most recent s/w update on the 622, if OTA reception all of a sudden stopped working between then and what, months ago since the last update (??), the blame isn't entirely with the 622. In almost all cases I've read, in fact, the local stations are to blame (not intentionally). They made a hardware change themselves or applied a software update to their hardware, etc, etc.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

MR. 72 - In DMA 130 KCVU worked perfectly at full power for several months. The problem started with the firmware upgrade to the exciter. The problem was compounded recently by the DST fix software for the encoder. They have improved the problem caused by the encoder software upgrade. When the station switched off the encoder, the signal wattage is reduced and the problem disappeared. The digital channel for KCVU is 20. It in not that high in the frequency range. About 100ft. below the KCVU digital transmitter is the KHSL digital transmitter (digital channel 43) that is basically at the same power. KHSL's digital signal is perfect. KNVN digital transmitter (digital channel 36), which is much closer to me, pegs my signal meters. The quality of KNVN is perfect. It is my theory that the encoder's firmware is causing a negative reaction to the PSIP data stream, and is making false signal information. When it comes to digital transmissions, there is much more to the signal than just RF. The encoders/modulators actually increase the RF power. I am very satisfied, having communicated with engineers, that the problem is with KCVU's exciter(s).


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

I discovered today that if I unhook my antenna and just leave the coax run to the attic connected the the 622, Fox comes in perfectly. Of course, most of the other channels then don't come in at all.

Is there a way to essentially block just that one channel from being picked up by the antenna?


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

I appreciate your knowledgeable input to this thread. It's very possible what you are experiencing in your case may be due to strong stations affecting 622 pre-amp gain and I guess there's a chance it could be the problem in my case as well. However, the conditions here are different. My problem station is transmitting at ch31. It is about mid range of the reported signal strengths of all received stations. Further, I'm receiving this station off the same tower as a weaker station, which is giving me no reception problems. So, I think this is still caused by some condition in the transmitted signal and whether it's definitely related to AGC remains to be seen. All I know is I've got to keep the problem signal in a very narrow range at the high end of receiver sensitivity in order to stabilize reception and loose the frequent "Lost Signal" error messages displayed when this signal is at higher signal strengths.



Mr.72 said:


> OK, Barrysb I have some thoughts that may add to this discussion. I was an EMC engineer for several years and obviously approach this problem from an RF perspective first and I think it could be an RF reception issue, and here's why.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

TechniKal said:


> Is there a way to essentially block just that one channel from being picked up by the antenna?


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=agile+modulator+bandstop
would be a starting point. Many links may be cable oriented instead of OTA, but a bandstop does what you ask. I'm not sure you want to flat out block it though. I ASSUME you want to combine the coax with the channel blocked with the highly attenuated coax where it isn't blocked (or some such).

You can find Agile modulators that will pass everything on the In coax to the Out coax but use a bandstop on the user selected OTA channel and insert the modulated version of that channel from the RCA jacks. But I think you want the bandstop function without the bandpass of the modulated composite.

No idea if it would help you, but it would "block" the problem channel.


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## sxhat (Mar 2, 2007)

I was able to try out a few different attenuators today to see if it helped the FOX signal in Austin. For me, a 30dB attenuator resolved the problem. I have attached a small table with the signal strength data for the Austin broadcasts (Fox is on 7.1):

Note that at 33dB attenuation, channel 54.1 dropped out completely.

Interestingly, with the 30dB attenuator, the "Digital Signal Strength" continued to drop to zero periodically then return to 73 (for FOX) as it did without an attenuator. But neither the audio nor video skipped a beat when it dropped to zero.

I don't understand technically why the attenuator resolves the problem, but for me, it does.


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## tskeeno (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks for all the information and I thought I would Chime in. I have the exact same problem with WOWK, a CBS affiliate in Charleston WV. UHF CHannel is 47.

I didn't have a terrible problem with picture with signal meter around 74ish, but thought I could do better so I went through a month of anntenas and found the nice channel master to pull in a 85 signal strenght. However, signal was constantly pixels and drop-outs. My wife complained that the picture was more stable when it was around 68-70 on the meter. I told her she was nuts that a stronger signal would mean less drop out. So much for logic 

I found this thread and others, so I turned the anntenna and got the signal down on 70ish and it works without drop out for about 98% of the time.

I called Dish, went through all the crap they make you go through, only to get the "we're not responsible for other signals....." After talking to the tech, he "wrote it up" for the engineers, but it sounded like my complaint was on deaf ears, and he acted like this is the first that Dish Network has ever heard of the problem.

I have not contacted the local TV station with the problem because even after reading all this thread, I couldn't begin to explain to an enginner what some of you think the problem may be.

Anybody have some very plain language or explanation that I could use to talk to the station? Thanks


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## focusmold (Jun 21, 2004)

Thought I could give a little input on this after reading this thread. I have a 622 connected to a DB4 I have had excellent reception on all of my Digital OTA until WTVW Fox7 7.1 activated their full power transmitter on Monday. I have the all the symptoms thats others are discussing. I have tried rotating the antenna. Nothing changes it for me. Before Monday since Feb last year I have been able to receive WTVW low power SD signal fine.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

FWIW I have FOX KTBC in Austin working 100% of the time, dependable as a rock with my 622. I guess it could be just luck of the draw, where I am located. Here's the scenario FOR ME:

I am in Cedar Park. I built a bowtie antenna with a reflector and I'm using it indoors, sitting on a window sill upstairs in my house (my house is kind of on a hill but this is by no means a perfect location for an antenna). The Austin transmit towers are avg. about 165 degrees azimuth from my house. If I use a compass to align the antenna pretty much spot on with the signal, then all stations come in near 100% but Fox drops out constantly as described. I can turn the antenna about 80 degrees to the west, and add the attenuator that came with the 622 (presuming it's a 10dB), and the Fox signal is about 72 most of the time. KNVA-54 is about 66-68 signal level, and the other channels are all in the 70s to 90s. Everything comes in perfect and works fine.

Now of course if I turn the antenna 5 degrees in either direction, then either Fox starts to drop out (Fox level is above about 75%) or I lose KNVA-54 and KLRU (their signal below about 65). So this is very location/direction specific.

OK, so the summary is this: a broadband antenna won't work for Austin stations for the most part. The problem I think is EITHER KTBC is way too hot (which I don't think it is), OR KVUE is way too hot (what I think is the cause). Either way, both of those channels are more than hot enough to pick them up within most of the suburbs of Austin with just a regular dipole element. 

This weekend I might just build another antenna and see what I can make happen. Basically I want to build a periodic dipole array with dipoles for certain channels, but specifically avoid KVUE.

So in Austin we have these digital channels:

22 - KLRU
43 - KEYE
21 - KXAN
33 - KVUE
49 - KNVA
52 - KBVO
56 - KTBC

I personally think KVUE is the problem child but in either case, KVUE is so loud that it does not need a tuned antenna. Over the weekend I think I will try and experiment with another antenna, a twin dipole just built to pick up ch. 22 and ch. 49. That would attenuate KVUE a lot (which it can handle) and attenuate KTBC a little, while maxing gain on the weakest channels.


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## jas88 (Feb 8, 2007)

Yeah, even with a splitter and 10db attenuator, I still get KVUE at a 98 SS.


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

I wouldn't know a dipole from a tadpole, but if the 20db annteuator I ordered doesn't work and your new antenna does - I'd be interested in buying one of your antennas!


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## sxhat (Mar 2, 2007)

For those interested in trying the attenuator, I just ordered from techtoolsupply.com (once there, just search for attenuator). The order arrived in 3 days. They have attenuators ranging from 3dB to 20dB for $2.19 each. I also ordered a right angle connector so the attenuators won't stick out far past the back of the 622 ($.89). 

The 30dB (10 and 20 together) worked for me in Austin. But since they are so cheap, I ordered a range from 3db to 20dB so I could experiment.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

kyle, if this works i'll hook you up man. gonna likely make one for another friend as well. putting it all together right now.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

OK, I whipped up an antenna (really modified another antenna) and it works like a champ for KTBC. I used an RCA antenna I got at Wal Mart for about $7 as a donor. I removed the whip antennas and the loop and replaced them with my tuned elements made from aluminum "electric fence" wire.

I hooked it up and scanned the locals. Here's the signal strength I'm getting from Cedar Park (with the antenna sitting on the ledge inside the house just like the pic):

7-1: 90
18-1: 69 --- this is one of my antenna tuning points
18-2: 70
24-1: 96 !!!! wow !!
24-2: 93
36-1: 85 this channel is in the "gap" between my two antenna elements
42-1: 98 (it seems to drop out like KTBC used to if you don't aim the antenna perfectly... hmm..)
54-1: 74 --- this is my other antenna tuning point
62-1: 68

Now, here's what's interesting. If I turn it right on-axis (the right direction, 165 deg azimuth from my place), then 42-1 drops to like 80% and drops out constantly like KTBC used to. However I can aim it a little off-axis (10 deg or so off axis to the west) and everything comes in perfectly.

You can see in the picture what antenna I am using. It was easy to modify. I think you could use a donor coat hanger the same way. I added my attenuator back in and it works even better, but it's sensitive to the direction.

Anyway, I have a theory as to what the cause is, and my experiment with the new antenna definitely supports my theory. However I don't have any proof! proof would be a bandstop filter for KVUE which is on channel 25 UHF.


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

I added the variable antenuator to the existing -10db one on there. Turning it up to around -14 db seems to do the trick. KVUE is down to 96-97. Fox is aroun 72-73 with no break ups. It seemed to have little effect on the signal readings from the other channels. I'm curious to see if this is a setup that works regardless of weather conditions, or if I'm going to have to constantly adjust it.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Well I was just intrigued to find that I can pick up FOX reliably with the signal level up at 90%, which is good since I watch FOX like 90% of the time I watch any network TV. I just had to get KVUE out of the over 100% mix.


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

Mr.72 said:


> Well I was just intrigued to find that I can pick up FOX reliably with the signal level up at 90%, which is good since I watch FOX like 90% of the time I watch any network TV. I just had to get KVUE out of the over 100% mix.


So it sounds like a better solution than attenuating the entire signal would be to get a band block for KVUE's frequency? Or, can I just find the 'bar' on my antenna that matches KVUE's frequency and cut it or otherwise mask it?


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Yeah either band block KVUE or provide an antenna with a big enough gap to avoid KVUE. Likely you can't do anything about it with your antenna... well maybe, what antenna do you have?

I always thought KVUE was the problem. I'd like to test that theory with a band blocker.


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## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

I've got this:

http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=&id=131

Where do you find band blocks? Only thing I could find were expensive rack-mounted ones.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Kyle,

With that antenna, you can just remove all of the metal elements and replace them with a pair of dipoles. It's easy. PM me about it.


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## brantlew (Mar 19, 2007)

Mr.72 said:


> Kyle,
> 
> With that antenna, you can just remove all of the metal elements and replace them with a pair of dipoles. It's easy. PM me about it.


Excellent analysis Mr 72! This is a really annoying issue for us Austinites and I think you have really nailed it. I live in South Austin (Slaughter/Manchaca) and have also gone through a series of antenna installations to try and resolve my reception issues. Same story here - I've got the 622 and a roof mounted DB2 with all my reception levels above 78 and Fox at 95 but with frequent drops. I don't want to attenuate everything because I easily lose KNVA 54 once it drops into the low 70's so the selective attenuation of KVUE seems to be the best solution. I don't mind constructing a custom antenna but I am not much of an RF engineer. Can you post a how-to for constructing your custom antenna tuned to UHF 22 & 49. I know it involves cutting and attaching metal elements tuned to specific frequencies but I would feel much more confident just following a guide written by someone who knew what the heck they were doing. I think this would help a bunch of us here in Austin.

Thanks.


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## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

Software update L401 def seems to have fixed the dropouts on the 622. I've had a perfect picture all day so far! (L401 is being slowly rolled to the 622s- some people got it this week, others may get it next week if the update is deemed stable by Dish).


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

FitzAusTex said:


> Software update L401 def seems to have fixed the dropouts on the 622. I've had a perfect picture all day so far! (L401 is being slowly rolled to the 622s- some people got it this week, others may get it next week if the update is deemed stable by Dish).


The release of L401 may have been around the same time that the station got their problem fixed. L401 has gravely affected the quality of the problem KCVU FOX channel here. Then again, maybe E* worked directly with that problem company for the TV station where you are having problem. It would be great to know if others in your area, with ViP receivers not having L401, are seeing improvement in signal quality.


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## Mike Russell (Feb 6, 2003)

L4.01 also seems to have fixed the OTA problem for KOLR channel 10 in Springfield Mo. I hope they can send the same fix down on my 942 as it is still messing up on OTA.


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## GaDog (Mar 21, 2007)

L4.01 seems to have solved the OTA problems for WTLH FOX in Tallahassee, too.


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## skyviewmark1 (Sep 28, 2006)

Hasn't done a thing for Mobile/Pensacola locals.. I am still getting dropouts, Pixelation and such even after L4.01. No better or no worse. Just the same so nothing in the new software has helped my problem.


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

Well I haven't been following this very much because I just gave up. But tonight I sat down & thought hmmmm let me try my fox channel. Wait I must have done something wrong I have a picture. Let me see check the program guide & ..... it is Fox I have a picture. Is it Fathers day & my family bought me a 500' Tower and a new HD antenna? A quick trot outside and no tower and no new antenna. Let me try my NBC affiliate which I have never got. Whoa... I have a picture there too. Quick let me look on DBSTalk.... new software.... cool but wait I only have L366. Please let L401 go smoothly I am getting better results right now than I have ever recieved. I am keeping my fingers crossed because conditions here vary wildly at times. But so far so good.


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## makers78 (Jan 23, 2007)

As of yesterday I have sw L403 and all the locals are looking good on my 622. I previously had 30dB of attenuation to get a passable FOX picture, however it killed my CW reception to the point we couldn't watch it. I'll check again tonight when everyone is broadcasting HD programming but it looks like Dish has resolved this issue for me!


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## Barrysb (Jul 16, 2004)

makers78 said:


> As of yesterday I have sw L403 and all the locals are looking good on my 622. I previously had 30dB of attenuation to get a passable FOX picture, however it killed my CW reception to the point we couldn't watch it. I'll check again tonight when everyone is broadcasting HD programming but it looks like Dish has resolved this issue for me!


L4.03 solved the problem I was having with WAVY-DT as well.

It sure would be interesting to find out what was causing the problem and why attenuation stabilized the condition. My theory was, since coherent AGC in the receiver was dependent on a transmitter signal condition, the Dish receiver AGC instability was caused by some unique condition that it wasn't programmed to understand. Adding attenuation caused the AGC to shut down thus eliminating the affect of the condition but not solving it.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

For the past week our FOX OTA station is working well. This has nothing to do with either software download L401 or L403. The FOX OTA station removed or disabled the problematic Axcera exciter. The station has been transmitting on low power only. I'll report back once they return to full power to see if this very long term problem is corrected.


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## luvjava (Aug 24, 2004)

I'm in the same area a Barrysb and 4.03 also cleared up my drop-out issues.

BUT for some reason, my OTA audio levels seem to be much lower that the same Chan received via sat.

(Note: This audio issue is only found when using HDMI. Audio levels are equal when Switching between SAT and OTA while on composite output.)

Bill


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## wje (Mar 8, 2006)

I've always seen OTA vs satellite volume differences at times. I'd guess this is introduced by E*'s uplink processing. Used to see it with D*, also. It's interesting to see the video delay between OTA and satellite; they must be doing a lot of something to the feed.


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## luvjava (Aug 24, 2004)

wje said:


> I've always seen OTA vs satellite volume differences at times. I'd guess this is introduced by E*'s uplink processing. Used to see it with D*, also. It's interesting to see the video delay between OTA and satellite; they must be doing a lot of something to the feed.


The delay is induced in the MPEG encoding process at the uplink and the addition of 44K to 88K miles of signal travel to it to get the uplink and then back to you (including the trip or two to space )

Bill


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## wje (Mar 8, 2006)

This is wandering OT (quite) a bit, but how does the uplink center get the video? I just assumed it would already be MPEG-2 encoded, since anything that's transmitted via ATSC is encoded. Even for the NTSC stuff, I'd think it would already be digitized and encoded when E* got it.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you, clearly there is processing happening, since the delay caused by the distance only amounts to 250msec per round-trip. Just curious, that's all.


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## bstech (Jan 11, 2007)

My OTA dropouts have once again increased. After about 2 weeks of Fox being one of my most stable stations (99% with no dropouts)I can hardly see any channel now. The only difference is the foliage on the trees. I can't believe that the digital signal is this dang finicky. One thing that I have noticed... If I bring up the guide and just let it sit there for a moment it seems to stabilize my signal somewhat. I have seen a channel go from totally useless to being able to actually watch with few dropouts.Once the picture has stabilized in the guide window I just escape out of the guide. I can't believe that would have any effect but it sure seems to help.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

The trees won't have that effect on OTA reception like they do with SAT reception.


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