# TiVo, BBC hijack video recorders



## invaliduser88 (Apr 23, 2002)

Check out:http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020524/152/cznfz.html

A disturbing "feature" of Tivo.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

I dunno, as long as it lets you record something else instead during the time period and it let's you watch something instead of record that show, it seems like a good form of advertising. If those two requirements aren't met it's downright wrong.


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## spanishannouncetable (Apr 23, 2002)

Jeez, what some people won't complain about...

If the unit had a recording scheduled by the user at that time, the unit ignored the show suggested by the BBC.

If the owner was watching something on live TV at the time, it gave them an on-screen option to NOT record it.

If the owner gave permission or did not answer the prompt for some reason (like not watching TV at the time), it stored the show on the section of the hard drive reserved for TiVo's use (as mentioned in the agreement in the box the TiVo came in).

Yes, it stays on the menu for a week and can't be deleted. So what ? The drive space used isn't accessable to the user anyway, so no usable drive space is lost.

And NO ONE is being forced to watch the show. It's just a temporary menu option and can be ignored completely.

I just don't understand what the tinfoil-hat crowd finds so upsetting about this :shrug:


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

No offense to Tivo owners, but first Tivo tracks your usage (by zip code only) unless the owner physically diables it, and now records programming that the user may or may not want. Regardless of whether it takes up space that can't be used for other purposes or not, if the owner doesn't set the machine to record, it shouldn't record it.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

I just don't get what the problem is? How is it any different from other advertising? Though I do feel TiVo should drop the subscription fee if they are going to take ads.


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## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

well, it's abvuse of the system, for one thing-also, i don't think i have seen any mention anywhere that tivo is going to force recording programming on you that you can't get rid of for a period of time as part of the deal...the problem with this is if BBC can get away with it, others will want to also, the logical conclusion being that one day you DO come home and find all your avalable space used up and nothing you can do about it...
personally, the greed behind this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth...


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

That can't happen jrjcd, as it's only recording to space reserved for TiVo advertising. It will not take any of the user's drive space.


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## RichW (Mar 29, 2002)

Consider also that this was doen in the UK, not here in the USA.
People in the UK pay for TV by subscription fees. There is a different treatment of TV "rights" in that country. There is actually a fine for watching TV without having paid a license fee on the TV.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

RichW, the legality of that fine is widely debated. The license is for watching OTA (and satellite/cable British) sources, and pays for the BBC. TiVo is one company, I just believe BBC was first willing to pay for this. If ABC had been first, it would have happened here.


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## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

mark, you would be surprised at all the things that can't be done that jump out of the woods and do happen...


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

But it hasn't happened YET, and this is a perfectly acceptable form of advertising. TiVo is a major company and isn't going to do anything to destroy their customers' trust.


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## Ryan (Apr 24, 2002)

This is effectively the same as the Starz video-on-demand feature that will place movies on DirecTivo units. But one is presented as a feature and the other is presented as troubling. Either way, something someone else thinks is important gets recorded and stored on a non-user area of the hard drive.

How you _feel_ about it is your own business. Just because you're paranoid...


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## garydw (Apr 22, 2002)

For me I have no intrest in Tivio if they are going to force items to be recorded.

And I will not have it in my house as long as they are recording and selling my personal information.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

But it isn't FORCED to record, it's only recording if you aren't using the unit anyways, and it's recording to a TiVo reserved hard drive area anyways. And any statistics gathered are in an anonymous way that does not violate your right to privacy.


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## Guest (May 26, 2002)

TiVo is very good at what it does. 

It's business plan calls for selling viewing data it collects and for selling targeted program placements to interested advertisers.

It's possible to opt out of the viewing data collection but you have to call TiVo's CS and wait on hold to do so. TiVo doesn't encourage you to opt out.

TiVo, Inc. is hoping most of its subscribers won't care about or even be aware of all it's revenue producing plans. It's still ascertaining the limits of what's acceptable for its service. Some of its revenue producing ideas push the envelope to the creepy line, IMHO.


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## RichW (Mar 29, 2002)

The problem I have with these data collection services is that it sometimes is not clear that you can "opt out". I believe the default should be to opt out and then convince people to opt in.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

As long as it is anonymous, I want my viewing habits being recorded. Before there was only the Neilsen ratings. Now I am doing my part to prop up shows that I like. And if my season pass for a show like "Jeremiah" on Showtime helps it survive then more power to the viewing habits recording.

Maybe no longer will I have to say "I loved that show but not being a Neilsen family makes my opinion worthless."


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Plus, it's a lot easier than filling out the stupid Neilsen diary is!


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## Guest (May 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RichW _
> *I believe the default should be to opt out and then convince people to opt in. *


I agree but it'll never work that way. TiVo's data collection isn't a Nielson sample; it requires volume to be worth anything.

There will never be a significant number of TiVo users who opt out much as there wouldn't be a significant number who would opt in.

Of course there are other DVR options than TiVo which is the only DVR now collecting viewing data. ReplayTV used to but hasn't been since their 4XXX's came out. UTV, Dishplayer and Dish's 501 don't.


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

Great, so I'm recording a show on vcr so I can have an archive copy and half way through the show, a box pops up from Tivo advertising about a BBC show and if I'm not there to check NO, I'm OOL.

What sucks is you're paying $10 to $13 per month so they can force feed programs down your throat. It would be different if they gave you a break on the monthly fee in return for these intrusions. 

It's like commercials on pay movie channels; it's just wrong.


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## HarryD (Mar 24, 2002)

What Tivo and the BBc did was flat out WRONG! Only you can what you want to watch. And to keep it on disk for a week makes it even worse!


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HarryD _
> *What Tivo and the BBc did was flat out WRONG! Only you can what you want to watch. And to keep it on disk for a week makes it even worse! *


Thats your opinion, I disagree. If TiVo is in financial problems and this is required to keep they developing relatively bug free SW then more power too them.

Yes it would be good if they gave you a rate decrease, but I've bought in and this to me is a NO COST way to keep my service functioning. Would I prefer that it not occur, sure. But the real world comes into play. I'd rather have this than in 1 year a box that props the door open.

If this would have happened in the US, it would not have prevented any of my recordings, it would not have caused erasure of any of my recordings. The % chance of it messing me up is minor. Everyone is coming up with combinations that make it so sinister. I have yet to find one that would have caused me a problem IN REAL LIFE.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lee635 _
> *Great, so I'm recording a show on vcr so I can have an archive copy and half way through the show, a box pops up from Tivo advertising about a BBC show and if I'm not there to check NO, I'm OOL. *


Since most of the people using TiVo use suggestions, this happens alot. So a majority of people could have what you describe happen anyway. The only ones who really have the right to complain would be those who have turned off auto-record of Suggestions, like myself.

But the way I use TiVo, I don't record anything live to Tape. I will record it as a TiVo recording and then play it for the VCR later. A playing recording will never get a dialog box asking to change channels. Only when watching LIVE TV does the dialog box pop up. And I for one don't watch much if any live TV anymore

How many people here in this discussion actually have and use a TiVo.


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## HarryD (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gcutler _
> *
> 
> ...If this would have happened in the US, it would not have prevented any of my recordings, it would not have caused erasure of any of my recordings. The % chance of it messing me up is minor. Everyone is coming up with combinations that make it so sinister. I have yet to find one that would have caused me a problem IN REAL LIFE. *


Maybe not a problem for you, BUT if they would ever pull that crap here, there would be tons of ticked-off Tivo users. And if you stop and think about it, it is sinister!


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

Here's an interesting thought. If Charlie had done something like this, what would the comments in this thread look like?


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HarryD _
> *
> 
> Maybe not a problem for you, BUT if they would ever pull that crap here, there would be tons of ticked-off Tivo users. And if you stop and think about it, it is sinister! *


No, I have stopped and thought about it and in my opinion it isn't Sinister. Can it be someone who looks at the same data and has a different conclusion??? Imagine that, It must be more of that sinister stuff!!! :shrug: I find your inablility to believe than anyone "Who Stops and thinks about it" can find it "not to be sinister" more telling. Anything else you feel a need convince me to believe your way, Politics, Religion. Really If I stop and think about it, I must believe everything you believe.

As for the tons of ticked off users, I agree. But hopefully many of them would realize that the reality makes it a necessity and not look for Sinister forces at work.


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

How could it be sinister? It's just paid advertising. In fact, I believe DirecTV is planning on doing this - as a feature called Video on Demand It doesn't use any user-availble drive space, doesn't affect the user's normal viewing, etc. In other words, it's a perfectly legitimate way for TiVo to make money.


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## HarryD (Mar 24, 2002)

They day my PVR starts getting programmed by my Satellite company is the day I pull the plug. While this may be ok for you, it's not for me. 

I'm not asking you to see it my way, really, just expressing my opinions. Deal with it.. :hi:


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HarryD _
> *I'm not asking you to see it my way, really, just expressing my opinions. Deal with it.. :hi: *





> _Originally posted by HarryD _
> *And if you stop and think about it, it is sinister! *


Sounds to me like your telling me I didn't think about it, and if I did I would have the same conclusion you had., If you stop and think about it, THAT IS WHAT IS SINISTER!!! Open your mind to alternatives!!! :hi:


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Mark, you are such a clueless soul.
Why are you so-o-o anxious for BIG 
BROTHER to take control of your life.
People like you scare the hell out 
of the rest of us. We just hope you 
don't vote. 


The Nickster :smoking:


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HarryD _
> *They day my PVR starts getting programmed by my Satellite company is the day I pull the plug. While this may be ok for you, it's not for me.
> 
> I'm not asking you to see it my way, really, just expressing my opinions. Deal with it.. :hi: *


Obviously, TiVo is not for you. Hopefully you didn't pay for a lifetime subscription. It sounds like UTV is more like the PVR you are looking for.


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## rmassey (Apr 23, 2002)

Well, take a look at Mark's tag line in every post, this may explain his perspective a little better..... personally I prefer Nick's


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## Ryan (Apr 24, 2002)

HarryD, Do you have a DirecTivo? Do you subscribe to Starz? Then watchout, 'cause Starz, DirecTV and TiVo are going to be sending your machine unrequested recordings sometime soon.


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rmassey _
> *Well, take a look at Mark's tag line in every post, this may explain his perspective a little better..... personally I prefer Nick's *


Why would anyone be upset about being able to see The Lord of The Rings before anyone else?


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## HarryD (Mar 24, 2002)

Ryan,
No and no. I'm a UTV man myself (and loving every minute of it!) I had a s/a Tivo for my daughter but recently cancelled the Tivo service. Tivo is nice but it's not for me. I don't really like the idea of it recording shows I MAY LIKE. 
So what does DirecTV and Stars have in mind anyway?


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## HarryD (Mar 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gcutler _
> *
> 
> Sounds to me like your telling me I didn't think about it, and if I did I would have the same conclusion you had., If you stop and think about it, THAT IS WHAT IS SINISTER!!! Open your mind to alternatives!!! :hi: *


Sounds to me like you can't understand that I think it's sinister. It's obvious that you are looking forward to this new feature so all I can say is enjoy.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HarryD _
> *
> 
> Sounds to me like you can't understand that I think it's sinister. It's obvious that you are looking forward to this new feature so all I can say is enjoy. *


Thanks, I will.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

You think you've got problems?

India and Pakistan are about to NUKE
each other off the planet - just what
UBL and the stinkin' terrorists want.

And if anyone thinks the deployment
of nuclear devices will end in asia, 
then I've got a bridge in NY to sell you 
- if it's still there by Labor day.

Record *that* on your TIVO!

The Nickster :smoking:


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

It never made much sense to me that We aligned with Pakistan which has not had a great Democratic history, and the Russians alligned with India which while in no way perfect is closer to a true democracy than many countries on the planet. But I guess thats the way the globe bounces...

Well lets play the Domino Game...

1) India vs Pakistan

2) China sides with Pakistan since China and India hate each others. (Lots of Chinese weapons systems used by Pakistan)

3) Russia would probably side with India since they have long relationship with India (lots of soviet weapons systems used by India) Indians are probably going to buy that Russian Aircraft Carrier, Kuznetsov (name changes monthly)

4) US tries to play peace keeper, probably ends up aligned with Pakistan due to Afghanistan...

Moral of the story... Get all your ya-yas out of your system by Labor Day. 

Nick, Do you think there is anything we can do to stop it if it is going to happen. Just like Cuban Missle Crisis, it all lies in the hands a a few men from each country listed. Better make this summer last!!! And watch all your recording asap, don't let they pile up.


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## Ryan (Apr 24, 2002)

HarryD:

Starz is reading their *S*VOD service, which I think stands for *Satellite* video on demand. It's being rolled out to DirecTivo units with Starz subscriptions. The end result is that a few of Starz premiere movies each month will automatically be stored on DirecTivo units so that subscribers can watch the movies if and when the feel like it, rather than having to wait for a showing and recording it.

As I understand it, these programs will be stored in an area of the disk that Tivo has set aside, so users should not experience any loss of personal storage capacity. I assume that the unit will not record the program if other events have already been scheduled. I'm curious to see if the DirecTivo units just capture certain movies when they are broadcast, or if there will be a 'secret' channel used to download the movies to the units.

This is similar to how TivoTakes worked, too. The machine would automatically capture TivoTakes when it was broadcast.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Hey, guess what. The twin of this thread at DBSFORUMS has been closed. DBSTALK.COM RULES!!!


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gcutler _
> *Hey, guess what. The twin of this thread at DBSFORUMS has been closed. DBSTALK.COM RULES!!! *


so what.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

So, any type of heated debate and they shut down the thread. That does not happen here. And thus DBSTALK.COM RULES!!!!


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## Guest (May 29, 2002)

When DBS Forums shut down their thread (partly because of me) I thought about starting a topic in the Potpourri here. Large parts of this thread really don't belong here.

I admire the free speech opportunities which DBSTalk provides but also admire DBSForums for their committment to providing a formally moderated Forum for exchanges based on technical info.


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## invaliduser88 (Apr 23, 2002)

Boy, this been an activie thread! I intend to delay my jumping on the PVR bandwagon until after the DirectTV Dish Merger happens (or doesn't).


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by invaliduser88 _
> *Boy, this been an activie thread! I intend to delay my jumping on the PVR bandwagon until after the DirectTV Dish Merger happens (or doesn't). *


Good idea, wait for all the dust to settle. You could also get a used PVR if you know of one available (a friend or e-bay). This way you get the benefit of the PVR without a major investment. If looking for just a "Placeholder" unit, any will do in the short term.

As a Dish sub If the 501 was available for $99, I would get it just for the fact that when watching TV in the bedroom, I miss having the pause, instant replay, let alone having additional 30 hours of recording space in addition to my TiVo (Stand Alone)


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

You can switch to D* and get a two-room Ultimatetv setup including the dish for free after rebate. Even if you can only use it for year or two, can't get better than free....


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## Guest (May 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by karl_f _
> *you....can't get better than free.... *


And if the merger goes through and requires equipment be changed they'll provide equivalent equipment free. UTV for free is the best current PVR deal. (There is a programming commitment I believe.)


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## BearsFan (Apr 22, 2002)

Interesting article here...

I don't personally own a PVR (nor do I have plans to...I have my reasons), but IMHO, I would have a *big problem* with TiVo doing this to me...

Article: BBC/TiVo

In particular, I would have a problem with this, specifically:



> Others complained that a show with salty dialogue shouldn't be delivered to homes with young children, particularly when their parents had no clue it was coming. Major British papers picked up on the controversy Thursday, airing the complaints prominently.


Thoughts?

--BearsFan


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

We've been discussing this for about a week.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4156


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## Ryan (Apr 24, 2002)

Quick, close the thread!


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## BearsFan (Apr 22, 2002)

Oops! Sorry, never read the thread that beat me to it. Close if you wish...sorry for the inconvenience.

--BearsFan


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## John Corn (Mar 21, 2002)

:lol:.....I did the samething today BearsFan, I posted a new topic and it already had been posted....... :shrug: .........we can't read all these posts.


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