# Network Watermark Burn-Ins



## airpolgas (Aug 13, 2002)

I've read instances where those pesky watermarks used by the networks cause burn-ins, mostly on plasma sets. Do any of you have any idea if there are any litigation, or bills, or anything with a legal precedent challenging the networks' use of such watermarks?

Links to news stories would be nice.

Thanks.

On another note:

I live in LA, and finally got to watching the first few episodes of Smallville's current season. After each commercial break, the network channel, on top of having its network logo on the lower right-corner, now has this superimposed banner that takes most of the* lower third of the screen*. The banner says what you are currently watching, and then changes to what is coming up next. This banner is on for about 7-10 seconds. Bastards!


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Yeah this crap is grating on my nerves as well. We know what friggen channel we are on and we know what friggen show we are watching. Its not 1975 any more, in case they hadn't noticed.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> Yeah this crap is grating on my nerves as well. We know what friggen channel we are on and we know what friggen show we are watching. Its not 1975 any more, in case they hadn't noticed.


I don't know about you... but back in 1975 with my non-digital TV set, I knew what channel I was on and what program I was watching as well.

Not sure what 1975 has to do with anything here.

I happen to not like the crawlers and the bugs either... but I know they are partially to combat those of us who ignore commercials or record programs and watch later to avoid commercials.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It was a lot easier in 1975. Less channels to remember. (Perhaps that was the point?)

I do miss having a TV with the LED channel number on the front (in 95, not 75).
In 1975 one could look at the knob position. 

JL


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## zmark (Apr 18, 2005)

The logo bugs no longer have anything to do with station identification. Now, it's all about branding. Nothing more, nothing less.

The next step, which some of the lower quality cable channels are already doing, is putting ads for other programs inbetween commercial breaks. Not right before or after, but 3 - 4 minutes into the program. Once the big networks start doing this, it will no longer be possible to watch serious drama on TV since you'll always be interrupted by something.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The crawlers annoy me because they are distracting... you have to make an effort not to be distracted by them.

The bugs I can kind of ignore after a while if they are small and don't move around.

But the really annoying ones are the mini-commercials (like on FOX) that run on the bottom of the screen advertising another show while the show you are watching has just returned from a commercial!

Sometimes I miss my old knob-TV... other times I remember how the tuner would sometimes get dirty and you'd turn the knob a dozen times to get it working right again... and the horizontal hold wouldn't hold... and no remote control! And then I feel better with my today TV.

Station identification is probably still an FCC requirement, and I've always suspected the bug was meant to accomplish that partly... but I wish it didn't have to be there all the time.


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## Ray_Clum (Apr 22, 2002)

HDMe said:


> Sometimes I miss my old knob-TV... other times I remember how the tuner would sometimes get dirty and you'd turn the knob a dozen times to get it working right again... and the horizontal hold wouldn't hold... and no remote control! And then I feel better with my today TV.


What do you mean no remote control... my dad had a perfect remote control - throw a couple of 1/4"-20 Hex Nuts at me and I'd move to the TV for him...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HDMe said:


> Station identification is probably still an FCC requirement, and I've always suspected the bug was meant to accomplish that partly... but I wish it didn't have to be there all the time.


Station ID is required ONCE per hour at the top of the hour and MUST be the legal callsign of the station. Most "bugs" I've seen don't have a legitimate ID, just the positioning of the station.

A legal ID consists of the callsign and the city of license with nothing between the two except (optional) the channel. Stations that simulcast the ID on more than one channel MUST also identify the channel. On TV it doesn't have to be spoken, just shown.

"WXXX-TV South City, ST" or "WXXX-TV 37 South City, ST" would be a Legal ID (if it existed).

JL


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> Station ID is required ONCE per hour at the top of the hour and MUST be the legal callsign of the station. Most "bugs" I've seen don't have a legitimate ID, just the positioning of the station.
> 
> A legal ID consists of the callsign and the city of license with nothing between the two except (optional) the channel. Stations that simulcast the ID on more than one channel MUST also identify the channel. On TV it doesn't have to be spoken, just shown.
> 
> ...


The timing (once per hour) isn't something I was sure about... but I remember from my radio service days about station ID. Some stations also would list their frequencies (at least on radio) as well as the call-sign and "channel".

I wasn't sure about the requirement these days because it has been a while since I can remember seeing an explicit station ID like I remember seeing as a kid. I guess they are more subtle with it now and work it into one of their commercials or something on the local stations.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

On radio it is supposed to be the closest natural break in programming to the top the the hour. It is NOT supposed to be burried in a set of commercials or burried deep in a music bed. It MUST be clearly heard.

That being said, it is probably one of the most violated rules on radio. Major ownership groups are the biggest violators. You will often find the call letters in the middle of a commercial break several minutes before the top of the hour and some positioner at the real top of the hour. Their "format" puts emphasis on the brand over the legal calls and they would rather break the law than break "format". I don't know why the FCC doesn't crack down. Those stations have proven that there is a 'natural break' available at the top of the hour by playing a 'positioning liner' - they have no excuse for not playing a Legal ID.

Back to TV:
TV stations have it easy ... all they have to do is super a line of text on the screen, and with all the garbage that we see on screen these days (as discussed in this thread) a line of text isn't a "violation of the format". Plus TV has generally kept with a fixed top of the hour format (accepting that viewers change channels) where many radio stations have abandoned the top of hour breaks for news/etc to keep the music rolling.
(OK, maybe that wasn't 100% back to TV.  )

Those logos are annoying but I wonder how much of a burn in problem there is. If you watch the same channel all the time it would be an issue. Our local NBC affiliate has burned in plasma sets on their news set. When they show something other than the station logo (such as the sports logo or some special report graphic) I can now see a ghost of the station logo. But does a home set stay on the same channel long enough to burn?

JL


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> Back to TV:
> TV stations have it easy ... all they have to do is super a line of text on the screen, and with all the garbage that we see on screen these days (as discussed in this thread) a line of text isn't a "violation of the format". Plus TV has generally kept with a fixed top of the hour format (accepting that viewers change channels) where many radio stations have abandoned the top of hour breaks for news/etc to keep the music rolling.
> (OK, maybe that wasn't 100% back to TV.  )


Since you reminded me of something... I do hear the station IDs on radio when I listen to AM radio broadcast of a sports program. Being in ACC country, I sometimes need to tune into a local team football or basketball on the radio if I'm in the car for a while... and the announcers of the game make a very clear "And now we will pause for a station identification" transition into a proper station ID. It may happen on talk-radio as well, and perhaps AM radio the way it is used today for non-musical-entertainment is more convenient for these things anyway?



James Long said:


> Those logos are annoying but I wonder how much of a burn in problem there is. If you watch the same channel all the time it would be an issue. Our local NBC affiliate has burned in plasma sets on their news set. When they show something other than the station logo (such as the sports logo or some special report graphic) I can now see a ghost of the station logo. But does a home set stay on the same channel long enough to burn?
> 
> JL


I don't know about burn-in either. I have seen it... if you've ever seen an old arcade video game (I remember seeing a Pac-Man game for example) you can clearly see burn-in (I remember the maze and dots quite clearly burned into that monitor!)... but that machine displays nothing but a fixed maze when it is being used.

I tend to think that burn-in on TV sets is a bit over-stated, even though I know it can happen technically and perhaps some technologies (Plasma I've heard for instance) are more vulnerable than others... but it seems like you'd really have to be staring at fixed images for way more time than even I care to be in front of my TV!


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

logo bugs and scrollers can easily burn in on plasmas, especially those that are on like CNN or a financial network or ESPN News that has a constant scroller. At least Fox News has their logo animated so that it won't burn in. It would be nice if at some point in the future the "toolbars" on channels could be selected or deselected by viewers, so we could choose to see them or not, same with the station logo.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ebaltz said:


> logo bugs and scrollers can easily burn in on plasmas, especially those that are on like CNN or a financial network or ESPN News that has a constant scroller. At least Fox News has their logo animated so that it won't burn in. It would be nice if at some point in the future the "toolbars" on channels could be selected or deselected by viewers, so we could choose to see them or not, same with the station logo.


I agree... with some of the "interactive" features supposed to be coming in the future to TV, and HDTV... the ability to turn things like that on/off like computer toolbars would be a nice feature.

However, I suspect that some of these things will never be treated like that (as optional) unless something major negative happens. Now I'm not lawyer-happy or anything... but I wonder if a station could be successfully sued if their toolbar/bug was burned into your set. On the one hand it would sort of be your fault for leaving it there so long... on the other hand it would mean you were saying publically that you really like their channel and watch it that much.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

The only time I like those logo bugs is when i'm staying at a Hotel. That way I can surf and immediately know what channel i'm looking at without having to keep looking at their little channel line-up card.


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## airpolgas (Aug 13, 2002)

So I guess no consumer complaint (legal that is) against the practice exists... yet.

I remember about two or three years ago when the station logo appeared after commercial breaks, but it disappeared after about 30 seconds. Now it stays there for the whole of the show. Another kudos to HBO. I see the logo at the beginning of the show, then the show's rating, then uninterrupted viewing comes up next.


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## jpurkey (May 15, 2003)

ebaltz said:


> logo bugs and scrollers can easily burn in on plasmas, especially those that are on like CNN or a financial network or ESPN News that has a constant scroller. At least Fox News has their logo animated so that it won't burn in. It would be nice if at some point in the future the "toolbars" on channels could be selected or deselected by viewers, so we could choose to see them or not, same with the station logo.


I'd buy a digital TV if I could selectively turn the bugs, crawlers, etc. off.

I've gotten so I don't even see the bugs. Of course, when I'm watching something like the Simpons on DVD with deleted scenes turned on I don't see the scissors icon either since I'm so conditioned to ignoring that corner of the screen. 

The news scrolls can be really annoying, especially if the background video is also moving, like when a reporter is riding in the back of a vehicle. The national news networks should do what a local station does with their i-bar and put the info up one line at a time, displaying each line for 3-5 seconds. It still takes up screen space, but is far less distracting than a scroll.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Yes Kudos to HBO, they are one of the best at keeping that annoying crap off the screen and distracting from viewing. It seems like those movie people who forced the "The following movie has been changed...." disclaimers should add to that list, "The following movie has been changed from its original in that now there is a network logo in the bottom right corner covering up stuff. It which wasn't there when I edited the film." They could also include something like your TV and/or provider my also overscan and therefore crop out portions of the screen. And, "Your provider may also be compressing the video so much as to increase the appearence of artifacts..."


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

James Long said:


> Station ID is required ONCE per hour at the top of the hour and MUST be the legal callsign of the station. Most "bugs" I've seen don't have a legitimate ID, just the positioning of the station.
> 
> A legal ID consists of the callsign and the city of license with nothing between the two except (optional) the channel. Stations that simulcast the ID on more than one channel MUST also identify the channel. On TV it doesn't have to be spoken, just shown.
> 
> ...


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

Paul Secic said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> > Station ID is required ONCE per hour at the top of the hour and MUST be the legal callsign of the station. Most "bugs" I've seen don't have a legitimate ID, just the positioning of the station.
> ...


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

ebaltz said:


> logo bugs and scrollers can easily burn in on plasmas, especially those that are on like CNN or a financial network or ESPN News that has a constant scroller. At least Fox News has their logo animated so that it won't burn in. It would be nice if at some point in the future the "toolbars" on channels could be selected or deselected by viewers, so we could choose to see them or not, same with the station logo.


Fox did appear to have a good idea with a rotating logo, but their logo DID burn in to my parent's rear-projection TV. They were completely unaware of the burn-in issue and the brightness was set too high. Now in the lower left-hand section of their screen, there's a dark "swirl" burned in where the Fox logo appears.


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## lacruz (Feb 24, 2005)

What I hate is watching shows on TNT & FX. After each commercial break, they will have all sorts of HUGE "pop-up" ads in the bottom left or right of the screen. These pop-ups always cover up the opening credits for a show, such as the guest cast. It is so irritating, I can't even watch those channels.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

What's worse is when they add sound to their "pop-up" ads. Like race car sounds when they advertise Nascar.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I notice that these damn bugs NEVER appear during commercials. Wonder why.


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

Burnin is a potential problem with CRT rear projection receivers, bigger size direct view CRT receivers and plasma receivers. I haven't seen any reports of vurnin on RP LCD's or DLP's but find it rather unlikely that it would occur.


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

My parents have a Sony 65 inch widescreen projection TV. They have a Directv/Tivo receiver. I was there last night and noticed on stations that were really bright in the lower right corner you see the MSNBC Logo with LIVE above it really faintly on every station. 

They watch MSNBC quite a bit but I never thought something like that could happen with the logo being now burned in the TV somehow. I thought this was just possibly on plasma TVs...... I guess there is nothing they can do to get rid of it.


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## AcuraCL (Dec 12, 2005)

There is nothing *cheap* they can do to get rid of it.


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## 918hatch (Dec 12, 2005)

damn, A&E could happen to me lol


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## 918hatch (Dec 12, 2005)

Going ot have to get rid of these.


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