# Ask: Looking for workaround to select OTA channel



## Martin Pauly (Jan 11, 2005)

This is probably not a problem with the Dish 811 receiver, but maybe someone can suggest a workaround that might help me.

One of the local DTV stations that I receive is transmitted on UHF channel 51 and then mapped to channels 2.1 and 2.2. The station identifies itself on my Dish 811 receiver sometimes as 2.1, at other times as 51.1. It seems like it switches back and forth every few minutes. This makes it difficult to program a macro on the my remote, because sometimes I need to press the keys "0 0 2 1" (for 2.1), at other times "0 5 1 1" (for 51.1). Is there a way to prevent this toggling in the receiver (i.e. force it to the actual transmit channel)? Or maybe there is a combination of button pushes that will work either way?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions!

- Martin


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

No, there really isn't a way to force that because the problem is coming from the signal that the station is transmitting. The 811 reads the program stream to determine what the channel number is, and what channel to remap to. If the station is changing settings on their end, the 811 will read those changes and adjust accordingly.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> No, there really isn't a way to force that because the problem is coming from the signal that the station is transmitting. The 811 reads the program stream to determine what the channel number is, and what channel to remap to. If the station is changing settings on their end, the 811 will read those changes and adjust accordingly.


Martin, sorry I am time constrained at the moment, do a search on this site, I have posted several write ups about this and PSIP station data.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Though this may be a PSIP issue. It also might be caused by loss in signal. I have seen this happen recently on my 811 and I personally feel the reason is that my since I added my 921 on to the OTA my signal strength has dropped. With the SoCal ran last few weeks It has been playing havoc with the signal. I have seen two channels temporarly jump to there frequency then back. It was ABC and Fox. When this happen it was because the signal was really wacky. 

Martin.. What is the signal strength and does my experiences match? If so, you might be able to stop this from happening by getting a better signal into the box. Also, there have been some reports of false signal loss. You can get it back by removing all your OTAs. Rebooting the box by pulling the plug, and readding your channels. Do a search and you will see some threads on this. 

What I am saying is it might be at the source and then again you might want to take a look at the quality of signal and try re-adding the channels to see if it goes away.


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## Martin Pauly (Jan 11, 2005)

Jason:

I did a search for posts on PSIP and found a link to www.psip.org with interesting information about it. I'll try to get in touch with the station to see if they are aware that their station ID is switching back and forth.

WeeJavaDude:

I don't think we are seeing the same things. All my OTA channels are coming in with solid signals (80%-90%), and only one of these stations has the problem I mentioned. So I guess it is due to something that this particular station does with the PSIP. Or am I drawing the wrong conclusions?

- Martin


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Martin Pauly said:


> Jason:
> 
> I did a search for posts on PSIP and found a link to www.psip.org with interesting information about it. I'll try to get in touch with the station to see if they are aware that their station ID is switching back and forth.
> 
> ...


With that type of strength you should be ok. How often are you seeing it switch? Have you done a search on here for the call name to see if other people are seeing this. You might also want to try avsforum.com's local HD info. Would be interesting if other people are seeing this type of behavior outside of the 811.


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## Martin Pauly (Jan 11, 2005)

WeeJavaDude said:


> How often are you seeing it switch?


Sometimes it doesn't switch all night, at other times it switches back and forth every few minutes.



> Have you done a search on here for the call name to see if other people are seeing this. You might also want to try avsforum.com's local HD info. Would be interesting if other people are seeing this type of behavior outside of the 811.


avsforum is where my search started. One of the guys there suggested I try dbstalk because that's where the 811 experts reside. But more and more it seems it's not an issue with the 811, just something odd about the particular station.

- Martin


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Martin - did you read the technical discussion about this? From that, it sounds like the 811 is doing a lot more processing of the PSIP data in the program stream, and is using more of it than other receivers do. Which, if the station doesn't have things set up correctly (sounds like most of them don't at this point), the 811 uses what it's sent and starts behaving erratically. That's what I got from reading that discussion.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Martin Pauly said:


> Sometimes it doesn't switch all night, at other times it switches back and forth every few minutes.
> 
> avsforum is where my search started. One of the guys there suggested I try dbstalk because that's where the 811 experts reside. But more and more it seems it's not an issue with the 811, just something odd about the particular station.
> 
> - Martin


Is it possible that you are picking up two stations from different sources? One thing you might want to try is when you are seeing it. Try deleting and adding the channel and see if the strenth metter is fluctuating and if the channel ID is jumping. Something to try. Possible a some type of multipath? Could be an 811 bug. At this point are to tell


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

I have been ecountering the same issue on my 811 with the local PBS station (6) in my area but not with my 921. The OTA channel for the PBS station is 53 and sometimes it will show up as 53.1 - 53.4 in the Programming Guide and then other time will show up as 6.1 - 6.4. If it is a PSIP issue, would I not be seeing the same thing happen on my 921? I encountered the problem even before I setup my 921 so it is not a signal strength issue. As a matter of fact, I have seen no loss in signal strength after installation of the 921 and splitting the cable for two tv's and utilizing four diplexers. Also, none of my friends who have DirectTV have ever encountered this issue.

It seems to me it is a problem with the 811 and not a PSIP issue.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

dalucca said:


> I have been ecountering the same issue on my 811 with the local PBS station (6) in my area but not with my 921. The OTA channel for the PBS station is 53 and sometimes it will show up as 53.1 - 53.4 in the Programming Guide and then other time will show up as 6.1 - 6.4. If it is a PSIP issue, would I not be seeing the same thing happen on my 921? I encountered the problem even before I setup my 921 so it is not a signal strength issue. As a matter of fact, I have seen no loss in signal strength after installation of the 921 and splitting the cable for two tv's and utilizing four diplexers. Also, none of my friends who have DirectTV have ever encountered this issue.
> 
> It seems to me it is a problem with the 811 and not a PSIP issue.


Actually what you describe can still be a PSIP issue. Here is why..

Have you always seen this issue? Wast this happening a few months back? Actually the 921 does not handle PSIP the same with the 811 does. My understanding is that the 921 does not interperate the PSIP to the extend the 811 does. This is why the 921 requires you sub to locals and the PSIP does not.

If you read the announcement at the top, the 811 is more sophisticated in how it handles PSIP. This could also explain why your friends with HD DirecTV receivers are not seeing this issue. I would suggest that you contact yor local station and let them know. It might be a known issue.

There are also issues where I have see the channels move and this usually occurs because of a weak signal. It does however usually return to its orginally mapping with a soft reboot. From your post, I assume that your signal strength is constently above 60%. Do you know if the signal is on 24/7 or is it an intermittent stream.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Ron is correct. The 921 does not handle PSIP the same way as the 811. 

Remember this error occurs to the units that constantly monitor the PSIP for on fly changes. Other units, like the 921, would require you to tune away and back for programming changes made on the fly. Again, such as a subchannel being added for emergency traffic updates.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

I have always encountered this issue, actually when I first setup the receiver it was happening with more than one channel. Now it seems all but this one have settled in and are not remapping themselves. 

As far as my signal strength, I am obtaining consistently above 80% for all channels  Is it worth contacting the station and reporting the PSIP issue or something that will one day corrected by Dish?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

dalucca said:


> I have always encountered this issue, actually when I first setup the receiver it was happening with more than one channel. Now it seems all but this one have settled in and are not remapping themselves.
> 
> As far as my signal strength, I am obtaining consistently above 80% for all channels  Is it worth contacting the station and reporting the PSIP issue or something that will one day corrected by Dish?


Does the channel seem to jump back and forth a lot or does it only do it once? Is it the case that it seems to stay on the 53.1 and then jump to 6.1 overnight or does it toggle back and forth throughout the day. My suggestion is to contact the station. Have you checked avsforums.com to see if other people are having a similar issue?

I would contact the station. Still need a bit more info to the behavior to narrow down what type of problem it might be.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

The only times I have noticed it happen is while I am channeling either up or down in my local stations. I might be on 13 or 13.1 or any other station 
(3 through 58.1) and all of a sudden the channel will jump to another station in that range then all my local channels will be aligned with the local OTA channel.

The channels will stay aligned for a couple of days and then 6.1 will change to 53.1 for a couple of days. I ahve sent an email to the station eatlier today.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

I sent an email to one of my local stations which I am encountering the issue with and here is their reply:

"In fact PSIP is the standard by which all digital television is broadcast. The fact that your receiver is displaying things like 53.x vs 6.x is something that most receivers do after our signal goes weak or down for whatever reason. We don't remap, the receivers misdisplay. The most important thing you can do is to routinely rescan your channels. I have a pretty good system in my office and I have to rescan it about once every two weeks on average. The one we have in our lobby...same thing. The four we have in Master Control...same thing. 

Why, you may ask? It has to do with the PSIP standard set down by the FCC. We as broadcasters - including all other DT stations in our area - meet or exceed FCC compliance for DT broadcast standards. The problem is that the set-top box manufacturers are not held to the same standards, and we cannot figure out why that is. 

Overall, the effect is that when our signal goes weak -or down- your set-top box doesn't always recognize our channels automatically when they come back to full power. Which means you have to re-scan. 

The fact that the other channels don't do this is a lot more complicated(as if any of this were simple). The simplest answer is that they are not broadcasting as many channels as we are.

One of the more notorious receivers in this regard is the Sony, which was the best just a couple of years ago. Now the best system going is by LG. It's going to be quite some time before all of the set-top box manufacturers get a clue and come into full compliance with FCC standards. It will be market-driven though since the FCC standard doesn't apply to receivers as it does to transmitters."

Any thoughts and seems to make sense why issue occurs on 811 and not the 921. Hopefully issue is addressed in future software release.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

dalucca said:


> I sent an email to one of my local stations which I am encountering the issue with and here is their reply:
> 
> "In fact PSIP is the standard by which all digital television is broadcast. The fact that your receiver is displaying things like 53.x vs 6.x is something that most receivers do after our signal goes weak or down for whatever reason. We don't remap, the receivers misdisplay. The most important thing you can do is to routinely rescan your channels. I have a pretty good system in my office and I have to rescan it about once every two weeks on average. The one we have in our lobby...same thing. The four we have in Master Control...same thing.
> 
> ...


Looks like another station passing the buck response. Although gotta say it is very well written. I have forwarded your post to the 811 team. Please PM me the station ID so I can identify it to E*, this way they can work with them.

Also we have already answered why the 921 and 811 act differently.


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## tonyp56 (Apr 26, 2004)

Jason and Mark,

I've heard you both say that the 811 is smarter than the average receiver because it is constantly reading the PSIP data and changing when it does. I would say that yes that is good, but why couldn't Dish make the 811 a little less sensitive to the PSIP data, that way small events like this could be reduced if not eliminated. Then when stations get their data corrected and everything is OK, the sensitivity could be turned back up.


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## Cokeswigga (Jan 25, 2005)

*Ron, *

I live in temecula, and I am constantly having problems with KABC-DT. I was wondering if you have experienced any similar issues with this station as well.

I have an 811, I can get ALL the L.A. stations with usually pretty good signal (>80, usually high 80's and Low 70's to 60's during bad weather)

However, ABC is troublesome. It
normally shows a signal of 49. 
However, sometimes, if you let it sit for a while, it will all of a sudden pick up the station with a signal strength of 80+, but if I tune to another channel, it looses it.. and it's a craps shoot again on whether I will lock onto the station again or not.

When it's not locked into the station it the guide jumps between Local Channel to whatever show is on.. and back and forth.

Any insight on why the signal would jump from 49 to 80, and any ideas on how I can get KABC-DT with consistancy?

Thanks


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

dalucca, I am being asked if you are referencing KVIE PBS Sacramento California?


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

tonyp56 said:


> Jason and Mark,
> 
> I've heard you both say that the 811 is smarter than the average receiver because it is constantly reading the PSIP data and changing when it does. I would say that yes that is good, but why couldn't Dish make the 811 a little less sensitive to the PSIP data, that way small events like this could be reduced if not eliminated. Then when stations get their data corrected and everything is OK, the sensitivity could be turned back up.


Again the 811 is not the only model/brand suffering from this issue. Samsung and Sony are as well. The answer is not to "Dumb down" and defeature a product because broadcasters are still perfecting their PSIP generation and ATSC transmissions, the answer is to comply with the ATSC/FCC specifications. Now to go further, if the scenario was reversed, you would also complain that you couldn't get on the fly programming changes for weather or traffic updates. The problem is everyone is looking for someone to blame, problem is, sometimes it's the other guys fault. E* can't make everyone happy, what you think would make a good feature, I don't....and vice versa. Being able to recognize an ATSC stream has changed without having to tune away and return, is a good feature in my opinion.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Cokeswigga said:


> *Ron, *
> 
> I live in temecula, and I am constantly having problems with KABC-DT. I was wondering if you have experienced any similar issues with this station as well.
> 
> ...


For me Fox usually is the one that is most problematic. However, Since I did some rewiring with my preamp I get a good strong signal on both Fox and ABC. As to the jumping. My guess would be you are running into a multi-pathing issue. I did a quick look at antennaweb.org and for me it appears in the RED while my abc Shows green. They are broadcasted from the same source and angle so my guess might be releated to power output. This could be the reason.

Have you tried adjusting your antenna? What type of antenna do you have? Indoor Outdoor? If indoor, I would look to place one outdoor.

>>>> When it's not locked into the station it the guide jumps between Local Channel to whatever show is on.. and back and forth. <<<<

I have no idea what the above statement means. Are you saying that the channel in the EPG is moving from its mapped station to its frequency? In this case, I would no suspect a PSIP stream issue. Most likely this is caused because the 811 is not able to hold signal lock on the station.

The cut off point is at 60 from what I can tell. If you are around 60 you are in the gray zone and all bets are off.

Well long story, but basically ABC comes in fine with me. Mind you they need to up the ante on HD content but the Disney movies on the weekend rock.

I would suggest the following.

1) Remove ABC from your Channel list and your Favorties. 
2) Reboot your Box. 
3) Try repositioning the antenna while having frequency 53 set to manual tune in to optimize your position for channel 7 since this is your problematic channel.

You might want to try a pre-amp & attuentor, but I would not until I verified that I could not make this happen with an antenna adjustment. I don't see any ABC PSIP issues on my 811.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

tonyp56 said:


> Jason and Mark,
> 
> I've heard you both say that the 811 is smarter than the average receiver because it is constantly reading the PSIP data and changing when it does. I would say that yes that is good, but why couldn't Dish make the 811 a little less sensitive to the PSIP data, that way small events like this could be reduced if not eliminated. Then when stations get their data corrected and everything is OK, the sensitivity could be turned back up.


Tony.. This is not a matter of sensitivity. This is a matter of properly implemented a spec. When a spec is not implemented properly, it can manifest itself in some things not working and somethings working. The root cause can be anything from the receiver not being robust enough to address an improper implementation to the sender improperly implemented a feature resulting in implementors that implement the spec properly. People that don't implement it in the latter case do not get bit by the second scenerio. I am not sure what you mean by sensitivity, but this is not a matter of sensitive in terms of signal. If you mean dumb down the code until the sender gets it right well here is my take.

You have multiple senders not just one to deal with. If you had one or a few sources to deal with then dumbing down might be an option. However in this case the permitations are numerous. Taking the approach of sticking with the standard is the best approach in the long run. No reason to mask external bugs. If you mask them, they might never get fixed and in doing the masking you are sure to introduce other side effects that you will be hamerd with. Best approach is stick with the standard and require other people to clean up their back yard.

If it turns out the 811 is not implementing a scenario properly, it should be the 811s responsibility to clean up not the senders responsibility to remove the feature. In this case with given all the different source of content, sticking to the standard should be mantra and make people adhere to it.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

Jason Nipp said:


> dalucca, I am being asked if you are referencing KVIE PBS Sacramento California?


Jason, yes KVIE PBS in Sacramento (channle 53)


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Below is a response to two recent posts I sent to the team. 

"For Cokeswigga: His 49% finally jumping up 80+ is probably because he has a distorted but strong signal on KABC-DT. Distortion from multipath or phase noise in an amplifier for example causes errors in the signal. The receiver front end tries to adjust for the distortion but until it can (if it can) the tables of PSIP can't be read correctly. Checking this out with absolute certainty requires a spectrum analyzer which is expensive. Depending on what kind of antenna he has, he could try changing it's position and see if it locks in quicker. He may have to work his OTA antenna alignment to get a compromise position that works for all stations. Really bad cases require two separate antennas and switching between them. Do not try to combine two antennas as that make the multipath worse.


 For Tonyp56: Anticipating every fault in the tables that a broadcaster can create is a good objective and worth trying to integrate but not as easy to do as it might sound. Some features like that are in the code already and implemented in a way to work for most situations. For example, if the receiver is confused by TVCT and PAT/PMT tables that don't match, if it can get enough PSIP to work it will place the channel at the RF broadcast channel until it later can get matching tables from the broadcast stream. At least that way it can be found in the guide and tuned. But if the broadcaster creates an illegal state condition, finding a way handle conflicting instructions in the stream while still preserving the features can be hard. Getting everyone to operated according to the standards helps everyone and then also try to work in the error handling conditions for when the standards are accidentally violated."


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## the_bear (Oct 18, 2004)

Dish seems unaware that OTA is more susceptible to interference than DBS. They should have provided a user controlled switch to allow the receiver to be dumped down to the old behavior.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

the_bear said:


> Dish seems unaware that OTA is more susceptible to interference than DBS. They should have provided a user controlled switch to allow the receiver to be dumped down to the old behavior.


I have no idea what you just said. Please clarify.

You say "dumbed down to old behavior". To my knowledge, E* has not made any changes that are causing this issue. It is the way the PSIP is being generated and the fact the FCC is finally enforcing a standard contributing. Now I am sure there are some stations out there that will push the limits of the mandate to the point they will get a warning or fine from the FCC. Don't push off Enforcement and Compliance of written, documented, and approved ATSC broadcast standards onto the equipment OEM manufacturers. If it was a problem receiving and translating I would reverse my statement. It is, and should be, solely the responsibility of the station/network broadcasting the signal, to insure that the information they are transmitting is in compliance. I know E* has helped many stations correct their issues already, I consider this going out of their way to help users.

To go farther on your comments, ATSC Digital broadcast does not work the same as NTSC analog. In the conversations I have had with E* engineering, it is apparent to me that E* engineering is very aware of what effects fringe, multipath, etc. play on OTA reception. I believe the average user doesn't understand the (operating/performance) variables. It is possible to have a very strong signal, but if that signal is distorted then you may still have issues. Contributors could be a amplifier interference in the transmission path. You could get 100% on the meter but if there is distortion in that 100% there is the possibility of issues.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

the_bear said:


> Dish seems unaware that OTA is more susceptible to interference than DBS. They should have provided a user controlled switch to allow the receiver to be dumped down to the old behavior.


What old behavior? This is not the case of use to work and know does not because of some tuning parameter changes in the OTA. The issues that a number of people are running into have to do with PSIP protocal changes that have occurred because of the Feb 1st deadline.


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## the_bear (Oct 18, 2004)

dalucca said:


> Any thoughts and seems to make sense why issue occurs on 811 and not the 921. Hopefully issue is addressed in future software release.


Wasn't the PSIP handling the same on both the 811 and 921 until the last software patch?

I have had many OTA problems since P284, but it is hard to say if they are caused by PSIP errors. The problem with constantly acting on PSIP changes is that there will be errors. These errors might not be from the station, but rather from interference. Since there is no way to knowing if a PSIP change is an error, I would like an option of not acting on every change. The current software makes TV watching less enjoyable for people like me and dalucca with difficult to lock signals. It seems we have gotten left behind with P284.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

the_bear said:


> Wasn't the PSIP handling the same on both the 811 and 921 until the last software patch?


Nope.



the_bear said:


> I have had many OTA problems since P284, but it is hard to say if they are caused by PSIP errors. The problem with constantly acting on PSIP changes is that there will be errors. These errors might not be from the station, but rather from interference. Since there is no way to knowing if a PSIP change is an error, I would like an option of not acting on every change. The current software makes TV watching less enjoyable for people like me and dalucca with difficult to lock signals. It seems we have gotten left behind with P284.


Unless I am mistaken, P284 is not where PSIP handeling was added in the 811. If you read Jason last reply, the 811 does have code in it to handle edge conditions. You can put an enhancement request, but I am not sure what something like that would look like. I don't see your issue here bear and I don't recall reading about it.

When I had a borderline signal, around 60s with a lot of drop outs I did see channels get mapped back to their orginal frequencies. I would have seen this prior to 2.84 and have seen it even before the Guide information was added. It is how the 811 has worked for a long time as I can remember.

What type of issues are you having Bear? I have not seen them documented here and did they start right around Feb 1st?

I think you might be confusing two things here. One is the PSIP handeling and the other is general OTA signal handling.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

the_bear said:


> Wasn't the PSIP handling the same on both the 811 and 921 until the last software patch?


No, the 921 and 811 were never identical in the 8VSB software module. PSIP has always been handled differently on the 921.

Also it was possible to see PSIP errors before Feb 1st, and some of use did, channels moving around, guide info errors, etc. The important fact surrounding Feb 1st is the fact this was the date the FCC said they were going to start enforcement of ATSC PSIP broadcasts. Some broadcasters are not even generating their own PSIP, they were retransmitting a national feed. When it comes down to it your seeing more problems now because the broadcasters are scrambling to get into compliance to avoid the penalties. And yes, if you read all the forums, the majority of these postings and complaints started around within a few weeks of Feb 1st. In general I do think the 811 is sensitive to fringe and multipath, but this isn't causing channels to move, that is part of the TVCT (PAT/PMT) being sent in PSIP.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

Not sure if it matters at this point, but I noticed my local ABC affiliate station running into the same issue as I am having with the PBS local station. Ron....I know you keep mentioning signal strength bordering on the 60's, but all my stations are in the high 80's to low 90 range. So not sure how this applies. I have never seen a dropout of any of my local OTA channels. 

Also, I received my 811 back in September and the issue has always occurred. When did version P284 get pushed out?


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

dalucca said:


> Not sure if it matters at this point, but I noticed my local ABC affiliate station running into the same issue as I am having with the PBS local station. Ron....I know you keep mentioning signal strength bordering on the 60's, but all my stations are in the high 80's to low 90 range. So not sure how this applies. I have never seen a dropout of any of my local OTA channels.
> 
> Also, I received my 811 back in September and the issue has always occurred. When did version P284 get pushed out?


P284 was released December 21, 2004 and went widespread on Jan 4, 2005. You should have gone thru 2 software revs since you got your 811 back in Sept.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

dalucca said:


> Not sure if it matters at this point, but I noticed my local ABC affiliate station running into the same issue as I am having with the PBS local station. Ron....I know you keep mentioning signal strength bordering on the 60's, but all my stations are in the high 80's to low 90 range. So not sure how this applies. I have never seen a dropout of any of my local OTA channels.
> 
> Also, I received my 811 back in September and the issue has always occurred. When did version P284 get pushed out?


I was not actually talking about your issue in specific. I was mainly addressing a cause of why channels move from their mapped location to their frequency location.

As to your issues. You now have two stations that having been doing this since September? ABC and PBS? is this correct?


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

Correct, last night the ABC channel was back in its correct place though. Very strange and somewhat annoying


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## the_bear (Oct 18, 2004)

Ok, I now understand the PSIP change is for broadcasters not the 811. My issues are probably unrelated to Dalucca’s.

When I first got the 811, the local station sent their antenna crew over to my house for dropouts. They were surprised a could lock at all since there is a mountain between me and the transmitter. They suggested a bigger antenna. My wife was opposed to this at first, but now we are both addicted to HD. I am also hoping that when I upgrade (maybe 942) that the receiver will be just a little better and I will not need a bigger antenna.

I read over the release notes for P284. I don’t see anything about the tuner, but the timing is the same as when I went from occasional dropouts to failure to lock. Is there anyway to go back to P283, so I can know for sure?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

the_bear said:


> Ok, I now understand the PSIP change is for broadcasters not the 811. My issues are probably unrelated to Dalucca's.
> 
> When I first got the 811, the local station sent their antenna crew over to my house for dropouts. They were surprised a could lock at all since there is a mountain between me and the transmitter. They suggested a bigger antenna. My wife was opposed to this at first, but now we are both addicted to HD. I am also hoping that when I upgrade (maybe 942) that the receiver will be just a little better and I will not need a bigger antenna.
> 
> I read over the release notes for P284. I don't see anything about the tuner, but the timing is the same as when I went from occasional dropouts to failure to lock. Is there anyway to go back to P283, so I can know for sure?


There is no way to go back a release. I am still not clear to what issues you are exaclty having. Let me ask a few questions.

1) What are your signal strengths?

2) Does this occur on one channel or all channels?

3) WHen did this start occuring?

4) What type of set up do you have for your OTA. Is it hooked to any additional TVs?

5) Are you experience any loss of signal?

6) Can you detail what you are experience?

Maybe I am getting confused with the two reports here, but I am not sure if you have provided any details as to your issue.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

the_bear said:


> Is there anyway to go back to P283, so I can know for sure?


No there is no way for you to revert. And P283 was skipped, it never existed. P282 was not one you would want and only 50,000 got it. P281 was the stable prior release.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

Okay new issue, now my Dish provided local analog stations no longer are viewable. I have tried all methods to obtain them and no luck. I did go into the System setup and did check Dish locals but no luck......Does anybody have any insight.  

Also, no matter what I do (remove, reboot, rescan) local channel 53.1 - 53.4 will not remap itself to 6.1 - 6.4.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

dalucca said:


> Okay new issue, now my Dish provided local analog stations no longer are viewable. I have tried all methods to obtain them and no luck. I did go into the System setup and did check Dish locals but no luck......Does anybody have any insight.
> 
> Also, no matter what I do (remove, reboot, rescan) local channel 53.1 - 53.4 will not remap itself to 6.1 - 6.4.


You cannot map OTA analogs and Dish delivered LiL locals at the same time to the channel assignment range of 2-99. You can only do this with OTA digitals and LiL. It only takes one mapped analog OTA and your LiL locals willl blow back out to their actual assignment range somewhere between 7xxx and 94xx.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

Jason, sorry if I misled...when I scan for OTA channels I only scan for digital. I have always used the Dish provided locals and never had an issue until a couple of days ago. I have reviewed a couple of times the scanned channels and they are all digital. This is why I am confused and not sure what to try next.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

dalucca said:


> Jason, sorry if I misled...when I scan for OTA channels I only scan for digital. I have always used the Dish provided locals and never had an issue until a couple of days ago. I have reviewed a couple of times the scanned channels and they are all digital. This is why I am confused and not sure what to try next.


Remember if you rescan you really should resave your favorites lists as well. At this juncture I recommend unmapping all your OTA. Resetting the receiver to it's default settings, then rescan your digital OTA's, make sure Dish locals are set to 2-99, then save. Then rebuild your favorites.


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## dalucca (Feb 5, 2005)

Jason, thanks for the info.....will do the steps even though I never built a favorite list on my 811. Also, the Dish locals are set to 2-99 currently, hence my confusion and somewhat frustration.


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## tonyp56 (Apr 26, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Tony.. This is not a matter of sensitivity. This is a matter of properly implemented a spec. When a spec is not implemented properly, it can manifest itself in some things not working and somethings working. The root cause can be anything from the receiver not being robust enough to address an improper implementation to the sender improperly implemented a feature resulting in implementors that implement the spec properly. People that don't implement it in the latter case do not get bit by the second scenerio. I am not sure what you mean by sensitivity, but this is not a matter of sensitive in terms of signal. If you mean dumb down the code until the sender gets it right well here is my take.
> 
> You have multiple senders not just one to deal with. If you had one or a few sources to deal with then dumbing down might be an option. However in this case the permitations are numerous. Taking the approach of sticking with the standard is the best approach in the long run. No reason to mask external bugs. If you mask them, they might never get fixed and in doing the masking you are sure to introduce other side effects that you will be hamerd with. Best approach is stick with the standard and require other people to clean up their back yard.
> 
> If it turns out the 811 is not implementing a scenario properly, it should be the 811s responsibility to clean up not the senders responsibility to remove the feature. In this case with given all the different source of content, sticking to the standard should be mantra and make people adhere to it.


Yes the stations are going to have to do things by a standard. But, with any "Standards" there is always breathing room. What I mean is if you look at any one standard, for instance, DD5.1 via digital optical cable (why is it some DD receivers have problems with the 811? Why are they fixing that, when there is DD standard-they test to make sure every manufacturer falls within their standard?), you will see variants, and even though they are not exactly like each other they are still within the "Standard." The standard in fire safety must be met, but it can be exceeded. And if a certain station exceeds the standard, and the 811 is so limited you are going to have problems. I am not really talking about "dumbing it up" I am talking about giving it a little bit of breathing room to componsate for variants in the PSIP data. Making sure that standards are met is fine and dandy, but isn't that the FCC's responsibility?


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## tonyp56 (Apr 26, 2004)

Jason Nipp said:


> Again the 811 is not the only model/brand suffering from this issue. Samsung and Sony are as well. The answer is not to "Dumb down" and defeature a product because broadcasters are still perfecting their PSIP generation and ATSC transmissions, the answer is to comply with the ATSC/FCC specifications. Now to go further, if the scenario was reversed, you would also complain that you couldn't get on the fly programming changes for weather or traffic updates. The problem is everyone is looking for someone to blame, problem is, sometimes it's the other guys fault. E* can't make everyone happy, what you think would make a good feature, I don't....and vice versa. Being able to recognize an ATSC stream has changed without having to tune away and return, is a good feature in my opinion.


I am only talking about the 811's OTA problems and how they are caused by the fact that it does it's job.(at least that is what you've said) And wouldn't it be less of a headache for E* to not have these issues by not having a 811 that has to have perfect PSIP data before it works right. Let the FCC regulate standards, that isn't Dish Networks or the publics job. The DD 5.1 issues between the 811 and some DD receivers is caused because of variants in the different model and brands of DD receivers. Right? So what makes you think that if every station in the country followed the "Standard" there wouldn't be variants then too? They would all be within the "Standard," but they can be different nonetheless. And if the 811 remains this way these problems will continue even after every channel in the U.S.A. is within the so called standard. That was my question. I didn't say it would be easy, or even possible, it was just a question. I've learned that standards are general guide lines, not set in stone rules. It will never change, as long as the 811 does what it does these issues will remain, because no matter the standard there will always be variants.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

tonyp56 said:


> Yes the stations are going to have to do things by a standard. But, with any "Standards" there is always breathing room. What I mean is if you look at any one standard, for instance, DD5.1 via digital optical cable (why is it some DD receivers have problems with the 811? Why are they fixing that, when there is DD standard-they test to make sure every manufacturer falls within their standard?), you will see variants, and even though they are not exactly like each other they are still within the "Standard." The standard in fire safety must be met, but it can be exceeded. And if a certain station exceeds the standard, and the 811 is so limited you are going to have problems. I am not really talking about "dumbing it up" I am talking about giving it a little bit of breathing room to componsate for variants in the PSIP data. Making sure that standards are met is fine and dandy, but isn't that the FCC's responsibility?


Not sure if you heard on the last tech chat. The 2 remaining issues that Dish is fixing with DD woudl not be caught by the DD test suite to test for compliance. I am fully aware of breathing room and optional pieces of a standard. There is also grey areas of standards that are not fully specified and this is the area where proplem usually arise. Microsoft did this with MPEG-4 at one time. There is also cases where the standard is abused or miss-implemented by the source. By doing this depending on how the client interperts the source can either make this issue benign or cause grief.

This just does not happen in standards, it has the potentional to happen whenever there is an integration point. A few years back IBM broke a number of 3rd Party software packages by changing how a System API behaved. IBM was cleaning up their code and in doing so changed the behavior of an API. 3rd Party vendors were not adhearing to the API contract between IBM and third party vendors and when IBM tightened their error handling about 30% of all OS/2 apps broke. Problem was this change was done after final Beta. Did IBM go back and untighten code. Nope. The vendors where required to adhere to the API contract and that is the way it should be.

As for the PSIP issues, The ones I have seen addressed on the 811 have been of the nature of not adhereing to the standard. What I have read are not varients in PSIP data, but are miss implementation of the standard. I have not seen any of the exceeding the standard type. The 811 does have error logic code, but also is more advanced than other receivers in some PSIP aspects. If it was just the 811 doing this and not other receivers there is an argument there, however these issues have been reported by other receivers.

The hard thing here is to tell what is and is not an upstream issue.


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## tonyp56 (Apr 26, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Not sure if you heard on the last tech chat. The 2 remaining issues that Dish is fixing with DD woudl not be caught by the DD test suite to test for compliance.


My point exactly! In other words, these manufactures were so close to the standard that not even the test suite could detect a difference. I am in agreement with you on 99.9999% of this stuff. But it is that tiny little difference that can mean a head-ache or not. Yes these problems are not only on the 811, and I think that is a good thing, that means that the 811 has more features and etc... It just seems like there could be a way for the 811 to adapt to the issues and not have so many issues with OTA. Either by "dumbing it up" like you said or giving it the ability to adapt to the issues on the fly. (which I know it already does to a certain degree)

Thanks for your comments, like I said I don't totally disagree with you.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

tonyp56 said:


> My point exactly! In other words, these manufactures were so close to the standard that not even the test suite could detect a difference. I am in agreement with you on 99.9999% of this stuff. But it is that tiny little difference that can mean a head-ache or not. Yes these problems are not only on the 811, and I think that is a good thing, that means that the 811 has more features and etc... It just seems like there could be a way for the 811 to adapt to the issues and not have so many issues with OTA. Either by "dumbing it up" like you said or giving it the ability to adapt to the issues on the fly. (which I know it already does to a certain degree)
> 
> Thanks for your comments, like I said I don't totally disagree with you.


Well glad to hear we are not at total disagreement. You do have a valid point and I understand where you are coming from. For the person that has this issue it can be very frustrating. However, I would point out that with all the differect providers of PSIP info all over the country that you can put code into the receiver to handle some genaric improper implemenation cases but you won't catch them all. I would also contend that addding fixes to the one off issues could also risk introducing bugs into other areas that are working. I for one would be extremely upset if Dish tried to work around an issue in Boise Idaho and in doing broke something that resulted in me not being able to watch my channel 11.  It is what I would call a huge test matrix and one that need to be acted with caution.

I am not familar with the code base so I am not sure how much more robustness Dish could add to work around improperly implemented PSIP streams. Being part of a UI development team with my interest laying in Human Factors, I am very attune to customer pain. For the person that runs into this issues it can create a lot, however, I also understand what Issue the 811 team has to deal with and it is not an easy one. My guess is given 6 months this issue will disappear for 99% of the cases. Actually I am surprised there is not more issue in this area than what I have seen.


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