# 942 Extend Guide doesnt all fit on screen



## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

When I set my guide to display in the Extend Guide format the last channel displayed at the bottom is half way cut off. This is with or without preview window showing. 

Anyone else see this?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Yup...it's due to your television's overscan. The bottom edge of the extended guide is set just inside the edge of 0% overscan (maybe 1% or so). If your set has more overscan than that (like mine does), the bottom line gets cut.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

I just had my monitor calibrated a few months back ...I guess I will have to have it done again.

Come to think of it I had my componet input 4 calibrated not my DVI input...oh well...

This could be addresssed with an OSD adjustment couldnt it?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Yeah, if there was one available.


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## Moridin (Mar 22, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Yup...it's due to your television's overscan. The bottom edge of the extended guide is set just inside the edge of 0% overscan (maybe 1% or so). If your set has more overscan than that (like mine does), the bottom line gets cut.


I think it may be more than merely overscan, Mark. Everything fit fine on L223, but since I got L224, a small amount (not nearly half) of the last channel is being cut off. And since I have a DLP, I don't have any overscan.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Moridin - my extended guide looks exactly the same to me since I picked my 942 up months ago. I don't know what would have changed for you to be seeing something different.


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## Moridin (Mar 22, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Moridin - my extended guide looks exactly the same to me since I picked my 942 up months ago. I don't know what would have changed for you to be seeing something different.


Um...the version of the software I'm running.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Yes, I'm aware of that.  And what I'm telling you is that I'm currently on the same version that you are, and my guide looks exactly the same as it always had - about half of the bottom line cut off. 

I'm viewing through component video, though. With you being HDMI, something may have changed slightly there.


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## M492A (Nov 18, 2004)

I had the exact opposite problem. My extended guide was slightly cut off at the bottom with L223 but is now okay with L224. I feed a Sony 50" plasma with HDMI. Haven't tried it with the component feed.


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## DRJDAN (Apr 28, 2002)

I have a Sony 60 rear projection LCD. I have the same issue when TV set to normal overscan. Change overscan to -1 and the problem is solved.


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## M492A (Nov 18, 2004)

M492A said:


> I had the exact opposite problem. My extended guide was slightly cut off at the bottom with L223 but is now okay with L224. I feed a Sony 50" plasma with HDMI. Haven't tried it with the component feed.


Well, I lied, sorta. It's intermittent and I haven't yet figured out a pattern. Sometimes it's fine, other times the bottom third of the last time slot is cut off.


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## Moridin (Mar 22, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Yes, I'm aware of that.  And what I'm telling you is that I'm currently on the same version that you are, and my guide looks exactly the same as it always had - about half of the bottom line cut off.
> 
> I'm viewing through component video, though. With you being HDMI, something may have changed slightly there.


I finally got some time to perform a soft reboot (the first since grabbing 224), and the guide clipping I was seeing over DVI is now gone.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Glad to hear it, Moridin.


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## M492A (Nov 18, 2004)

Moridin said:


> I finally got some time to perform a soft reboot (the first since grabbing 224), and the guide clipping I was seeing over DVI is now gone.


Not to be cynical, but I'll bet it'll be back.


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## vahighland (Mar 29, 2005)

DRJDAN, thanks for overscan tip. I have a Sony 60 rear projection LCD as well and the overscan trick worked.


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## jpetersohn (Apr 6, 2005)

I have an LCD television (direct view, not projection) and the guide fills the screen completely (no black overscan rim). Running L224.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

I Have my overscan set to about 4% right now (which I thought was the same for you Mark as per discussions on the 921 forum), and I see the line half gone only for about ten minutes after I first turn on the TV. Once it warms up, it isn't too bad.

This gives me the most obvious question to ask, "How many lines of channel data are there?"

If you are seeing a line cut in half, you don't know if you are missing 1/2 a line, or 1 1/2 lines!

Is there an official line count listed for the extended guide?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I believe that it's 7 and 9, (with and without preview window). Check my review - the screenshots show the full image of the extended guides.


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## edub52 (Mar 27, 2005)

Maybe this was already addressed, but I haven't seen it.

With my old receiver, a DVR 510, the channel guide appeared to fit on my Sony 32" 16x9 LCD regardless of whether I was running in "full," "zoom," or "wide zoom" modes on the TV. Full was 4x3 and zoom/wide zoom appeared to fill the screen, although wide zoom seems to do a better job of showing titles and whatnot--I usually ran in wide zoom. With the 942, the channel guide gets cut off (missing most of left side that shows channel, some right side and a few rows on the bottom) in every mode except full. In full, the guide looks good, albeit with a little extra space on the right, but now I've got black vertical bars. I set the receiver to push 1080i, as that's what the TV is configured for. Am I misconfigured, or is this a known issue with the 942?


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## zubinh (Jun 11, 2004)

If anyone has solved this issue while using a Samsung DLP, please let me know. Thanks!


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Yup...it's due to your television's overscan. The bottom edge of the extended guide is set just inside the edge of 0% overscan (maybe 1% or so). If your set has more overscan than that (like mine does), the bottom line gets cut.


With all due respect Mark, but how can you be so sure it's the tv's overscan when the problem changes so drastically between receivers ?

With my 508, all of my channels were centered pretty good and very little overscan.

With my 811, there was what looked like some overscan with some of the Voom channels but overall most of the other channels centered within acceptable parameters although not as well as my 508.

I just got my 942 and it started with the 225 software. From what I can see, all the channels are shifted way to the left and down. It really shows in the extended EPG where I can't even read the channel numbers or the bottom listing.


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## Bichon (Jun 5, 2003)

waltinvt said:


> I just got my 942 and it started with the 225 software. From what I can see, all the channels are shifted way to the left and down. It really shows in the extended EPG where I can't even read the channel numbers or the bottom listing.


Odd, on my system, the channels are too high. I think the best solution, which I've already suggested in the "feature" thread, is the ability to positition the picture from the HDTV setup menu, as I was able to do with my 6000. Better still, I'd like horizontal and vertical picture size adjustments, so that I could compensate for the overscan.


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

Bichon said:


> Odd, on my system, the channels are too high. I think the best solution, which I've already suggested in the "feature" thread, is the ability to positition the picture from the HDTV setup menu, as I was able to do with my 6000. Better still, I'd like horizontal and vertical picture size adjustments, so that I could compensate for the overscan.


I agree. My 811 had "X" & "Y" adjustment arrows in the HD setup Menu but I haven't found any such setting in the 942. Although, as I remember, the arrows in the 811 were non-functional at first and enabled with one of the downloads. I might have drempt that though.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Because the extended guide is showing more information on screen than any other receiver's guide shows? That's why I say this is an overscan or a picture position problem with your television. Now, I'd accept the argument that the problem is with the 942 if you were to say that the 942 is displaying data outside of the "safe zone" used with televisions. But, that's not an issue these days with all of the 0% overscan televisions that are now available.


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## Bichon (Jun 5, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I'd accept the argument that the problem is with the 942 if you were to say that the 942 is displaying data outside of the "safe zone" used with televisions. But, that's not an issue these days with all of the 0% overscan televisions that are now available.


I'll accept that the 942 is displaying data outside the "safe zone". But how is that not an issue? Those of us who spent $3,000 - 5,000 for CRT based HDTVs a couple years ago can't very well toss them into the dumpster in favor of a zero overscan flat panel. For us, picture size and position controls would be a HUGE help.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Position and size controls are probably possible, but they'd be well down on the list of priorities, considering that you have other options to deal with the issue. The simplest being to go back to using the standard guide like on every other receiver. You don't have to use the extended guide if the last half line of the screen is cut off for you. Another option is to make the adjustments to your teleivision yourself, or pay someone to do it for you. The fact is that if you have more than 3 of 4% overscan, you're losing picture on _everything_ you watch, not just the guide. And, if your guide isn't centered on screen, then your television has a problem that should be corrected.


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

Mark,

I agree about the extended guide of the 942 being more likely to accentuate any overscan problems but I probably wasn't very clear when making my point.

When I compare the same program screen (for example the typical Voom HDNews screen), viewed on the same monitor (34" Dish HDTV), through the same connection (DVI), the screen is shifted at least an inch further to the left and maybe an inch and a half further down with the 942 than it was with the 811.

Now since my last post, I did overcome my apprehension and dive into the service menu of the monitor and was able to straighten it out some. I may have to tweak it some more. I just didn't want to do that if the overscan / off center issue was going to be corrected with an upgrade to the 942.

My point was / is that the same picture on, on the same TV with the 942 was shifted quite a bit further (in my case both left and down) than it was on the 811. That means something was wrong with either the 942 or the 811. A person shouldn't have to make those kinds of adjustments when switching satellite receivers.


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## Bichon (Jun 5, 2003)

waltinvt said:


> When I compare the same program screen (for example the typical Voom HDNews screen), viewed on the same monitor (34" Dish HDTV), through the same connection (DVI), the screen is shifted at least an inch further to the left and maybe an inch and a half further down with the 942 than it was with the 811.


Walt, you can't really compare them since the 811 has controls (on the HDTV setup screen) to position the picture on the screen. Are you sure that you (or your installer) didn't use those controls to move the picture to the right and up?


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

Bichon said:


> Walt, you can't really compare them since the 811 has controls (on the HDTV setup screen) to position the picture on the screen. Are you sure that you (or your installer) didn't use those controls to move the picture to the right and up?


:hurah: Sorry, but now I gotta tell you my 811 install story. They were nice people but really didn't have a clue. When they first hooked up the 811, there was no picture.

I didn't know a whole lot about it but had read somewhere about early 811s being factory set to 720. I tried to explain it but they just kind of starred at me. Then the older guy admitted that this was only the 2nd Dish HD system he'd installed.

So I grabbed some cables, made the S-Vid connection and switched the tv to that input and we had a picture. They Both immedialty said how great it looked and what a difference HD was. I told them I didn't think that was HD yet and proceeded to go into the menus, found and changed the HD settings to 1080 / 16:9. They were amazed and said how their first install didn't look that good.

Anyway, I know they didn't mess with the arrows but that's not to say someone back at their showroom hadn't. So maybe you're right. I'd still like to get a service manual on this TV so I'd know what all the settings in the service menu do.


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## Bichon (Jun 5, 2003)

waltinvt said:


> I'd still like to get a service manual on this TV so I'd know what all the settings in the service menu do.


If you do get a service manual, proceed with extreme caution. The service menu adjustments for picture size often interact with those for linearity and convergence, and it isn't very hard to make things worse. If you decide to fiddle, keep a notepad handy and take detailed notes about everything you change, so that you can put things back if you aren't happy.


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

Or just remove one channel from the extended guide and the problem is gone.


Ken


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## cebbigh (Feb 27, 2005)

I just set up my 942 and found I am having the same problem. The 921 had 7 lines of programing information and it fit in the screen. It also had the option of adusting screen position. Why can't the 942 do it too? I'm beginning to wonder if the jump was worth it. I know the 921 was out there a longer time and things got ironed out gradually. Do I just need to be patient?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The only way the 921 ever had 7 lines of guide data is if you had the preview window turned off. If this is such a huge problem for everyone, go back to using the standard guide, and lose the benefits of the extended guide.

Or, call your local ISF calibrator and get your television adjusted.


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

I've noticed very little PQ difference among component, DVI, & HDMI inputs on my Samsung HLP4674. But DVI & HDMI give me one more stretch mode, called "Expand", that does a nice job of minimizing overscan. "Expand" is the only way I can use the extended guide without truncating the bottom line.


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## cebbigh (Feb 27, 2005)

With my Panasonic rearscreen getting much better results with component versus DVI in many areas. The Guide fitting the screen is one of them.


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## pjm877 (Apr 27, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> The only way the 921 ever had 7 lines of guide data is if you had the preview window turned off. If this is such a huge problem for everyone, go back to using the standard guide, and lose the benefits of the extended guide.
> 
> Or, call your local ISF calibrator and get your television adjusted.


Well I have the same problem with my Mits WS-65813, and yes I had a ISF calibrator come out. Over 6 hours (and big bucks) was spent on that CRT rear projector TV. The only thing that is wrong with this TV now is in the way Mits did its DVI over the Compo. and there was nothing the Calibrator can do about that .. (color will be a little off)

Do I think I am missing any of the programing.. NO.. I think the Computer display setting in the 942 is off. Font, resolution, ect... I have not got a clue but I don't think it is the TV's... but I am not a TV tech just a Computer Nerd (geek) that works with computers for a paycheck.

The 942 is connected to the TV through Compo.

So is this a problem well yes. but can on live with it ... heck yes... would I like it fixed.. you bet.. will I loose any sleep or give it a second thought after I summit this note .. not a chance..

Come on people this is a NIT.. I can just make out the info for that line... get a life.. and yes I bought 942, to replace a 6000 no free lunch here.

Ya'll have a nice day.


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## cebbigh (Feb 27, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> The only way the 921 ever had 7 lines of guide data is if you had the preview window turned off. If this is such a huge problem for everyone, go back to using the standard guide, and lose the benefits of the extended guide.
> 
> Or, call your local ISF calibrator and get your television adjusted.


Mark, 
My 921 had 7 lines of guide data with the preview window on. I would send you a picture but it is now disconnected and deactivated and in a box to sell. Don't tell me it couldn't because it most certainly did! I adusted the monitor (Panasonic) while hooked up to the hdmi/dvi cable (Monster single piece) on the 942 and got it to a point where I could at least read the program info. Then because of a seperate issue of jittery image quality I tried connecting using component cable. That solved both the issues of jitter and the guide now fits the screen. So the problem is solved.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

My mistake...and I apologize. That'll teach me to speak before checking my own 921...it definitely does show 7 lines of guide data.


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## cebbigh (Feb 27, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> My mistake...and I apologize. That'll teach me to speak before checking my own 921...it definitely does show 7 lines of guide data.


Accepted. And likewise I apologize if of my first post had a tone of frustration. After all, until I sell it, I can always just swallow the 250.00 lease price and go back to using the 921 (or I could start whacking my head with a hammer to get rid of my headache). Once I connected to the component and the picture improved I started feeling much better. As I tried two expensive hdmi/dvi cables with inferior results to a dish supplied component cable I have to wonder if something is messed up with the hdmi pin connections out of the back of my particular box. But I'm not going to worry about it because I couldn't really see any difference between component and dvi on the 921. I'll be fine for the year or so until mpeg4 comes out.


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## spiff72 (Aug 20, 2004)

> I think it may be more than merely overscan, Mark. Everything fit fine on L223, but since I got L224, a small amount (not nearly half) of the last channel is being cut off. And since I have a DLP, I don't have any overscan.


I don't like to bring this to light so late after it was said, but the last line of this posting was completely false. A DLP TV can absolutely have overscan. I was surprised no one else commented on this...

A DLP is a fixed pixel technology, but it is still rear projection (or front projection). The optics involved can lead to some degree of overscan. The only way to get zero overscan as far as I know would be to use a direct view fixed pixel display.


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## StevenZ (Aug 15, 2003)

spiff72 said:


> A DLP TV can absolutely have overscan.


Yup. According to the HDNet test patterns, using DVI out, and without any adjustment, my Samsung HLP4674 has Top/Bottom/Left/Right overscan of:
2/4/5/5% in Expand mode
4/7/8/9% in Wide TV mode

4:3 and Wide PC modes have underscan, but I wouldn't watch in those modes.

Like I said a few posts earlier, Expand minimizes (i.e., doesn't eliminate) overscan and lets me see seven equal-sized lines of the extended guide. But it's not available with a component connection.

[Boy, will I feel stupid if there are more than 7 lines in the extended guide :lol: ]


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

It's been said that the HDNET test patterns are incorrect...not sure how true it is though.

Last night I went to adjust my over scan with my Avia disk and with a 480p/16:9 setting its sitting a 3.5% L/R and 4% top/bottom....

And the gudie still doesnt fit. So am I doing something wrong? I mean according to the Avia disk 3-5% is the optimal setting. 

I brought up the guide while i was tweaking and to make it fit I would have to do some serious distorting of the screen and and give up a lot of real estate. 

This cant be right can it?


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## Beer Kahuna (Mar 25, 2005)

In reply #26, Mark said:



> The fact is that if you have more than 3 of 4% overscan, you're losing picture on _everything_ you watch, not just the guide. And, if your guide isn't centered on screen, then your television has a problem that should be corrected.


I spent the last week learning all I could about adjusting my set for overscan and other screen adjustments in the service menu. Here is what I found:

- Although I could adjust my set to display the entire EPG, when adjusted and properly centered there was underscan on the bottom of several HD channels (mostly VOOM channels - Rave, Equator, Rush)

- Now that I can see what the bottom of the program guide looks like, I can say IMHO it is positioned too close to the bottom of the screen field. There is room to the top of the guide to shift everything up a little so it should be moved.

- So, for now I have my set adjusted so the bottom edge of the bottom row of text (in a 2 text row guide listing) is just sitting on the lower edge of my screen. At this setting I have a small black line on some of the HD channels mentioned above. All of my SD channels look OK (the 20 or so I checked) and the E* HD channels all seem to be OK. It's just (some of) the Voom channels.

So, now what?


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## DRJDAN (Apr 28, 2002)

E-Bay would be good outlet for those old CRT based HDTV's. Sell now while the value is still reasonable. I purchased an inexpensive all in one Sony DVD-receiver-speakers a year ago to gain an understanding of Dobly 5.1. Paid about $500 and sold on E-bay last month of for $250. The $250 net cost allowed me to better understand my needs so when I purchased a free standing receiver, DVD and speakers. It ending up saving me way more than the $250 cost.


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## Beer Kahuna (Mar 25, 2005)

DRJDAN said:


> E-Bay would be good outlet for those old CRT based HDTV's. Sell now while the value is still reasonable. I purchased an inexpensive all in one Sony DVD-receiver-speakers a year ago to gain an understanding of Dobly 5.1. Paid about $500 and sold on E-bay last month of for $250. The $250 net cost allowed me to better understand my needs so when I purchased a free standing receiver, DVD and speakers. It ending up saving me way more than the $250 cost.


Point taken but there are a couple problems with that.

1) The picture quality of a good CRT based RPTV is superior IMHO to many of the "new technology" sets I've seen. Blacker blacks, higher detail, and tighter space between pixels to name a few. So they're a little bigger and, like a Ferrari, harder to tune. Oh well! When I find a 60"+ flat panel hi-res (read 1080p) wall mount unit with awesome picture for under $5,000, I'm an instant owner. Until then, I'll tweak what I have.

2) The other point missed is: the 942 has image alignment/geometry issues in and of itself. I just want E* (and Mark) to acknowledge and address them.

I have pictures to post which illustrate what I'm talking about and hope to post them tonight. (I'm at work and forgot my camera at home today - DOH!)


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## DRJDAN (Apr 28, 2002)

Beer Kahuna,

I have a friend that has an CRT HD RPTV and one of the issues I notice it that you have to sit directly in front of it and at a single sitting verical level for good picture. Outside of the sweet spot it looks a little fussy. I have a Sony LCD RPTV that my wife and I each sit at a 45 degree angle and can see it just as well as when guests sit on a couch or the floor in front of it. The TV is in the corner of the room is why we sit at 45 degrees. 

I agree with you on the 942 adjustment options. I had a little cut off and solved it with adjusting my tv.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

There's no doubt that the picture position could be better with the 942, and that the extended guide is too large on the screen. I would love to see position adjustments available like with the 6000. Size adjustments are much harder, and if you've ever worked with the program Powerstrip, you know why. You lose vertical sync very easily, making even the smallest changes to the size of the image.


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## Beer Kahuna (Mar 25, 2005)

> Outside of the sweet spot it looks a little fussy.


True enough although some are better than others. The Sony WV700 series is much better with this than most CRT RPTV's but not as good as a LCD/Plasma and the like. I have 4 pretty good seats in the "sweet spot" so I can live with it.



> There's no doubt that the* picture position could be better* with the 942, and that *the extended guide is too large on the screen.*


That's all I'm saying. The average E* subscriber doesn't know some of these forums even exist, let alone navigate through them to learn what to do. Adjusting the TV picture in the service menu I'm sure is WAY out of reach for the "VCR still blinks 12:00" crowd.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

I adjust my overscan down to .5 - 1% on all sides and it still wont fit. In my case it is not the overscan it IS the position of the image.

For testing purposes I put the overscan to a negitive position and the image was beyond the scope of the project screen. 

So there are NO adjustments that I can make on my TV to get it to fit.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Guys, picture adjustments are coming. Don't yet know which release they'll be in, but they're now on the books as a priority "to do" item.


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## Beer Kahuna (Mar 25, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Guys, picture adjustments are coming. Don't yet know which release they'll be in, but they're now on the books as a priority "to do" item.




Thanks Mark! We knew you wouldn't let us down!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I had little to do with this one, truth be known...you'd probably be surprised at who reads what you guys write on a daily basis...you're being watched and listened to very closely.


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## Bichon (Jun 5, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Guys, picture adjustments are coming. Don't yet know which release they'll be in, but they're now on the books as a priority "to do" item.


Mega-kudos to those folks for seeing the value of those picture adjustments!


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## gels US (May 15, 2005)

61" Samsung DLP 
I'm totally new to this forum and hope this is the place to post.

I have a 942 feeding my 61 sammy with DVI and wonder how to get full screen?? I have no problems with HDTV, but with the rest it leaves bars at the side. When I had VOOM I could stretch the picture from the Voom Box.

Thanks for any help.
Cheers,
Geoffrey


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## Tom-Tx (May 23, 2005)

Try the format button on your remote. It is on the bottom left hand side.


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## gels US (May 15, 2005)

Thank Tom so very much.

It Worked

I had spoken to a CRS at Dish but of no help!!!

Geoffrey


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Okay...I've finally found a way to may the extend guide fit...If I change the setting on the HDTV Setup to 480i or 480p the guide fits just fine. 

So I have a big choice to make...do I want the extended guide or do I want to watch HD? 
decisions decisions...LOL


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