# Poll:Will we ever get OTA digital guide information?



## John Quaglino (Aug 5, 2003)

My confidence in Echostar and the 921 has been shaken. My BIG question is whether the 921 will ever receive guide information and record from guide capabilities for OTA digital stations?


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## BarryO (Dec 16, 2003)

E* has repeatedly said it will be available later this year.

I am a firm believer in the principle that past actions are the best predicter of future behaviour. Therefore, I believe that NO, there is absolutely no chance this will ever be implemented.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Call me stupid if you want, but I believe it is still coming.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

If they don't do the OTA guide for 921 users, dish will loose a lot of customers. They simply can't afford to not do it.


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

There is no margin to be made in adding this functionality, though. Unless Dish Network charges us yet another fee (groan), there's no real incentive for them to add this functionality to any receivers. As an example, I currently subscribe to Dish locals primarily so that I can see the program guide; if Dish begins providing program guide information for the OTA channels, I have no real incentive to keep paying for the dish locals. I assume others would be in a similar position.

Perhaps they would keep it as being contingent on having a subscription to local channels, meaning you wouldn't receive the program guide information for the OTA channels unless you were a Dish local channel subscriber.


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

Slordak said:


> if Dish begins providing program guide information for the OTA channels, I have no real incentive to keep paying for the dish locals. I assume others would be in a similar position.


Your local digital OTA channels must have a better up time than Albuquerque. I would guesstimate our locals are only up 80% of the time at best with some channels being offline for days at a time. I still can't afford to drop the locals from Dish until they get backups for their digital transmission systems. Right now if something breaks, they diagnose the problem, then order the necessary part while we wait and wait for the channel to come back online.......


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

This must be implemented or I'll dump my 921. Slordak mentions an idea that kind of makes sense - you must have the local channel package to get the guide info for local OTA channels. All E* would have to do is provide a UI for the user to manually map the OTA channel to its corresponding sat channel.

I'm getting tired of having to select the local sat channel to record a program and then having to edit the timer so that it will actually (attempt to) record OTA. Frankly, if this workaround didn't exist, it would be practically impossible to even record OTA.

E*, get with it and provide this functionality. I can wait until the box becomes more stable (post L180 or whatever it ends up being), but the lack of OTA guide info is completely unacceptable for the long-term.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

They can't tie it to a local channel package because not all subs are in areas where they can get a local channel package...


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## buist (Nov 12, 2002)

Mark,
if they don't tie it to over the air guide, it means that Dish will need to retransmit local information for the entire US.. If it is tied to the online guide, there is not any re-transmission of guide data. It also gives Dish extra money (if they require you to receive the local channel to get the guide data - like they do now). It will negatively affect some of the subscribers, but that number is getting smaller each month. 

If the broadcasters sent the entire guide information OTA, this would not be necessary (depending on how far in advance this could be retrieved). Call me crazy ;-) but I don't see them doing this consistently..

Tim


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

buist said:


> Mark,
> if they don't tie it to over the air guide, it means that Dish will need to retransmit local information for the entire US.. If it is tied to the online guide, there is not any re-transmission of guide data. It also gives Dish extra money (if they require you to receive the local channel to get the guide data - like they do now). It will negatively affect some of the subscribers, but that number is getting smaller each month.
> 
> If the broadcasters sent the entire guide information OTA, this would not be necessary (depending on how far in advance this could be retrieved). Call me crazy ;-) but I don't see them doing this consistently..
> ...


That's not true. Almost ALL local DTV stations are currently transmitting PSIP (guide) data. Dish software is not picking it up and displaying it. This is strictly a Dish Network (and DirectTV as well) problem. There are several OTA boxes out there that display PSIP guide data properly.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

ibglowin said:


> That's not true. Almost ALL local DTV stations are currently transmitting PSIP (guide) data. Dish software is not picking it up and displaying it. This is strictly a Dish Network (and DirectTV as well) problem. There are several OTA boxes out there that display PSIP guide data properly.


That's not true at all. In Denver, we have 1 out of 7 stations doing anything with PSIP guide data, and it's always wrong. And, half of our stations PSIP clocks aren't set correctly either. Dish can't rely on PSIP for guide data. PSIP would be disasterous for us here.


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> That's not true at all. In Denver, we have 1 out of 7 stations doing anything with PSIP guide data, and it's always wrong. And, half of our stations PSIP clocks aren't set correctly either. Dish can't rely on PSIP for guide data. PSIP would be disasterous for us here.


I think Denver is an anomaly.......

I think PSIP is our only realistic chance here.


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

I do not believe that the correct state of what broadcasters are doing with PSIP is sufficient for this purpose. Every channel or affiliate does something a little bit different, so that there is a complete lack of uniformity, and in a number of cases, the PSIP information is not being broadcast at all. I don't know the technical details about what is possible with PSIP, but I doubt that any channels are broadcasting a week's worth of future programming information.

Hence, if we want to continue to have the nice consistent 8-day PVR/DVR program guide we are used to, Dish has to provide the data to us. Please note that the program guide itself is not that huge in terms of absolute bandwidth required; it probably uses less bandwidth than one standard definition channel.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Slordak said:


> ...Hence, if we want to continue to have the nice consistent 8-day PVR/DVR program guide we are used to, Dish has to provide the data to us. Please note that the program guide itself is not that huge in terms of absolute bandwidth required; it probably uses less bandwidth than one standard definition channel.


You're probaby right, and if E* is smart (ha), they'll use a basic relational database concept - normalize the data. In real human terms (as opposed to us robotic techies  ), that means little to no duplication of data items. There's not THAT many different shows out there on the networks - use the same data item for every local coast-to-coast, with the low quantity of locally originated shows being the only locally-unique data. I do this sort of thing for a living - it ain't brain surgery.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> You're probaby right, and if E* is smart (ha), they'll use a basic relational database concept - normalize the data. In real human terms (as opposed to us robotic techies  ), that means little to no duplication of data items.


Actually, the way you do it is "tokenize" the data. All of the stations show a huge number of the same programs. All of the NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, UPN, etc.. show the same prime time programs. The syndicated channels show the same programming, with a lot broader range.

All you have to do is assign a number (tokenize) to the programs. Dateline = 1, Primetime Live = 2, 60 minutes = 3, etc... Now, when you download all of the data, the channel guide looks at the local channel, and it sees the entry '1' for the call letter KNTV. It looks at that number in the program index, and comes up with 'Dateline', and it displays that.

Tokenizing makes it very cheap storage wize to download all of the program data for all of the stations in the country. Almost all of the stations transmit their call letters, and this is the index, along with the time are the indexes (sp??) into the database to get the program token. That program token is itself an index into a database to show you the name of the program.

The PSIP data will absolutely not work. Not many stations transmit program info. They can all chose what they want to send. How many with PSIP data actually get a program guide 9 days into the future?? How many get it 2 days into the future?? How many of them only transmit the current program??


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

In the event that the station doesn't transmit call letters, it isn't that hard to add them in manually. It is only four letters.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

How come this works for VOOM and not DISH?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

jsanders said:


> Actually, the way you do it is "tokenize" the data. All of the stations show a huge number of the same programs. All of the NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, UPN, etc.. show the same prime time programs. The syndicated channels show the same programming, with a lot broader range.
> 
> All you have to do is assign a number (tokenize) to the programs. Dateline = 1, Primetime Live = 2, 60 minutes = 3, etc... Now, when you download all of the data, the channel guide looks at the local channel, and it sees the entry '1' for the call letter KNTV. It looks at that number in the program index, and comes up with 'Dateline', and it displays that.
> 
> Tokenizing makes it very cheap storage wize to download all of the program data for all of the stations in the country. Almost all of the stations transmit their call letters, and this is the index, along with the time are the indexes (sp??) into the database to get the program token. That program token is itself an index into a database to show you the name of the program.


We're talking about the same thing, but in 'my' IT world, "tokenizing" means something else entirely.

Of course, your idea to allow mapping of OTA locals into the relational database is good. The EPG might not have everything for EVERY local (but then again, isn't a deal with TV Guide in the works?  ), but there's already an option in the 921 to designate which of the Big-3 networks a local ATV channel is. The 921 already knows which time zone it's in, so all they need is to add FOX, UPN, WB, & PBS and they've got most of the bases covered. Of course, there's a few situations like being on the edge of a time zone border that would need a little extra work, but the idea seems pretty solid to me.


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## Bogney (Jul 11, 2003)

ibglowin said:


> I think Denver is an anomaly.......
> 
> I think PSIP is our only realistic chance here.


Then New York City is "an anomaly" also.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

San Francisco Bay Area is also an anomaly


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I hate to say it but my Samsung 360 DirecTV HD receiver does a great job of listing the digital channels. (and I am in Denver)

It is tied to your zip code and gives you a main and alternate city to get your digital guide. It also does all of the sub channels. It downloads the guide info from the satellite. I assume the HD DirecTIVO will have the same type of listings. If DirecTV can do it Dish should be able to also, but we are talking about Dish .......


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> We're talking about the same thing, but in 'my' IT world, "tokenizing" means something else entirely.
> 
> Of course, your idea to allow mapping of OTA locals into the relational database is good. The EPG might not have everything for EVERY local (but then again, isn't a deal with TV Guide in the works?  ), but there's already an option in the 921 to designate which of the Big-3 networks a local ATV channel is. The 921 already knows which time zone it's in, so all they need is to add FOX, UPN, WB, & PBS and they've got most of the bases covered. Of course, there's a few situations like being on the edge of a time zone border that would need a little extra work, but the idea seems pretty solid to me.


Ooops! Sorry SimpleSimon, I wasn't trying to suggest any contradiction. I was agreeing with your point, and trying to give an example of it. I think what you said is the perfect solution to the problem of OTA guide space on the hard drive, and more importantly in terms of bandwidth from the satellite. If they want to save even more space, they simply write to the hard drive, only the guide for your call letters.

Anyway, tokenizing is the term used in the programming world. It is usually associated with looking for words and "tokenizing" them in a stream of text. It is used to build compilers, or interpreters, etc..


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

jsanders said:


> Ooops! Sorry SimpleSimon, I wasn't trying to suggest any contradiction. I was agreeing with your point, and trying to give an example of it. I think what you said is the perfect solution to the problem of OTA guide space on the hard drive, and more importantly in terms of bandwidth from the satellite. If they want to save even more space, they simply write to the hard drive, only the guide for your call letters.
> 
> Anyway, tokenizing is the term used in the programming world. It is usually associated with looking for words and "tokenizing" them in a stream of text. It is used to build compilers, or interpreters, etc..


 No sorry - I know we're in agreement here - except for the semantics. 

Yes, exactly, your definition of tokenizing is the same as mine, but IMHO, that's not what's needed here. I envision a database of text blocks - the show information. Each block gets a unique ID number. Each station's guide is hardly more than a list of times and ID #s. The ID #s are the "keys".

A thought just struck me - this is probably how VCR+ and such things actually work.

Also, the sat channel info would all stick on the HD, as would the 'blocks' for the 6-7 big broadcast networks. As you say, odd local programming would be saved only if applicable.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Sure, that sounds a little more complete. I was thinking about the guide info too. Seems like the ID number needs to be for the actual episode for a show, to be able to satisfy shows in syndicate. ER, episode 5 would have a different number, or ID, than ER episode 6 as an example. That way the ID lookup could give you both the program name, and the show summary found in the 'info' menu.

I was also thinking about the VCR+ codes too, I think the code is mainly a combination of the channel number and the time. That is enough info to do a lookup into the database. I don't think the VCR+ codes have any information as to a show or episode encoded into the number. It would definetly give enough pointers to find the info in the database. The question is, do VCR+ codes change based on local area? Are they different in Florissant, CO than they are in say, Nome, AK?? I've never used them. If you have to tell the VCR what your affiliate channel map is, then they would be the same. If it is just channel number and time, then they would be different. VCR+ codes based on call letter are ideal I think.

I have also wondered why the 921 doesn't accept VCR+ codes, as we have to program OTA recordings just like a VCR at present time.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Yes, the ID# is the "Primary Key" of the 'ShowInfo' DB table that contains (at least) 2 data fields: Show Title, Show Description. The other DB table contains (maybe) Channel ID, Start Time (GMT might be 'right'), Duration, and show ID#. The Channel ID might be the station call letters, or a pointer to such. It would depend on the existing guide DB layout, which is unknown to us. If they've done it 'right', most of this is already in place.

It could be taken one step farther and assign numbers to the Show Titles so that they are also normalized, but that might be overkill.

(I can't believe I've just published this - I usually charge at least $1000 for a DB analysis that's not much more than this  )

If VCR+ contains Channel #, that wouldn't be good for this application at all.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Mark-

What you said about PSIP is absolutely correct. I said the same thing over 2 years ago. The solution, however is with regulation, not technology. They can make it right by being forced to do it accurately or be in violation. There is no reason why one station CAN do it while many other don't. except for the fact that the others just do not have any priority to make it work. It is considered a frill feature to the many requirements that these local stations deal with. ONE of our local engineers went to the trouble to get the clock accuracy working but he is just one person. He said that PSIP is technically capable but there is just no requirement to standardize it. I say it is the closest thing we have but need the FCC to get some backbone and force it into regulation. This is just one example of where the FCC SHOULD be concentrating on rather than worrying about fines for some shock jock or JJ's nipple showing on TV for a second. De-regulation was a big mistake IMO. Quality and excellence in technical broadcasting is now voluntary!


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> That's not true at all. In Denver, we have 1 out of 7 stations doing anything with PSIP guide data, and it's always wrong. And, half of our stations PSIP clocks aren't set correctly either. Dish can't rely on PSIP for guide data. PSIP would be disasterous for us here.


Mark I vaguely remember you saying in your original review of your 921 that you were not allowed to say, but dish was coming up with a unique way to get OTA listings. ( Or words to that effect, you may said Dish has a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it & call it a weasel?) Do I remember correctly, and is this still true?
Also I've noticed in your posts that your definition of the word "soon" differs by about 26 days from my dear wife's definition of the same word. who is right?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

You remember correctly, and as far as I know, it's still true. I'm going to try to get more information that I can pass along next week when I have lunch with some key people.

Not following your exact reference to the word "soon"...


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> You remember correctly, and as far as I know, it's still true. I'm going to try to get more information that I can pass along next week when I have lunch with some key people.
> 
> Not following your exact reference to the word "soon"...


Well Mark you seem to say "next release soon soon soon" and 26 days later it happens, my wife says "could you fix the toaster soon?", she means, like now !
Why are you having lunch with a locksmith?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The first few times I said soon was when the new software looked stable. Then a couple of things were uncovered that were fixed. Then, more "soons", and more things were found and fixed. Then the final "soons" which really meant that I thought that it would be out next week, and here we are today. 

I have to say "soon", because if I had said 2 weeks ago that it was going to be out "this week", and it wasn't, then that's bad.


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> The first few times I said soon was when the new software looked stable. Then a couple of things were uncovered that were fixed. Then, more "soons", and more things were found and fixed. Then the final "soons" which really meant that I thought that it would be out next week, and here we are today.
> 
> I have to say "soon", because if I had said 2 weeks ago that it was going to be out "this week", and it wasn't, then that's bad.


See, that makes perfect sense too me.
Hey, Mark don't let the *******s grind you down, we all appreciate your work.


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## Cheezmo (Feb 5, 2004)

Matt Stevens is reporting today on AVS Forum that there will never be OTA guide data for the 921. He claims it is fact, not a rumour. (But I'd consider it a rumour for now).


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## Geronimo (Mar 23, 2002)

Why have a poll on a technical problem?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I believe that Matt is very upset about the dishwire mess, and is misinterpreting what he's being told. As far as I know now, except for the Dishwire, nothing else has changed with the 921 plans.


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## Cheezmo (Feb 5, 2004)

Well, Scott from SatelliteGuys has chimed in that he heard the same thing from 2 Dish employees. Not looking too good.


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## Richard Chalk (Jan 4, 2004)

The use of the program guide portion of PSIP is still evolving, with many stations trying to update it from their internal traffic computers. This basically involves writing software interfaces to collect what is usually rather cryptic information, without descriptions, and displaying plain english to the viewer.

A second method is to use a subscription service such as Tribune Media Services, which can download the data via phone or internet connection into the stations PSIP computer.

Both of these are expensive and time-consuming, and for the most part have not been implemented. As far as I know, the FCC considers EPG a convenience to the viewers, to be provided by the stations if they choose to. It is not a necessary part of the program stream, like the system info portions that make it all work.

Dish could download the giude as well, but I can only imagine what the providers would charge for this, knowing the number of subscribers Dish has!!

Gemstar also provides program guide info, which RCA (among others) provides in some of their TV sets, and which can be read on a PC using "Guide+" which comes with the ATI All-in-Wonder video cards, but I don't know if it contains info on the DTV stations. Ultimately, the info has to originate with the stations, and if they don't provide it over-the-air, it seems unlikely that they would compile it for Tribune or Gemstar.

DTV-specific program guide info is available from TitanTV, which supports guide-based recording for the PC cards which capture DTV to the Hard Drive. Maybe they can make a deal with them...

As for tying the DTV channel to the corresponding ATV, that would be a short-term solution which would help many of us - however, it would not provide any info for stations which provide different programming, like many of the PBS outlets, on their HDTV sub-channel.



DonLandis said:


> Mark-
> 
> What you said about PSIP is absolutely correct. I said the same thing over 2 years ago. The solution, however is with regulation, not technology. They can make it right by being forced to do it accurately or be in violation. There is no reason why one station CAN do it while many other don't. except for the fact that the others just do not have any priority to make it work. It is considered a frill feature to the many requirements that these local stations deal with. ONE of our local engineers went to the trouble to get the clock accuracy working but he is just one person. He said that PSIP is technically capable but there is just no requirement to standardize it. I say it is the closest thing we have but need the FCC to get some backbone and force it into regulation. This is just one example of where the FCC SHOULD be concentrating on rather than worrying about fines for some shock jock or JJ's nipple showing on TV for a second. De-regulation was a big mistake IMO. Quality and excellence in technical broadcasting is now voluntary!


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

The way I understood the Dish system would be that Dish would put the digital guide data in thier regular program guide (or at least duplicate the analog station guide) then match the station call letters to the guide data. Dish should already have the guide data in the system for all the LIL channels, and as long as the digital/analog feeds of the station match the guide would be correct. Does anyone have a non primary digital feed that does not match the analog feed at this time on their DTV? My DTV only seems to vary some on the commercials since HDTV CBS is a bit different than the analog CBS.

For the LIL cities providing guide data for the digital OTA stations should be pretty easy since Dish already has the guide data in the stream and all they have to do is match call sign to the analog call sign.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

As it was mentioned by a previous poster, D* HD STB's have had the Advanced Program Guide available for over 3 years. The APG provides EPG info for OTA stations, analog or digital, via the satellite stream. The APG is also included in the new HD Tivo box. So if D* can figure out how to do this over 3 years ago why can't the folks over at E* figure it out so the 921 and don't forget the 811, can get something besides Local Digital in the guide?


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## BroncoFan7 (Feb 5, 2004)

Mike123abc said:


> The way I understood the Dish system would be that Dish would put the digital guide data in thier regular program guide (or at least duplicate the analog station guide) then match the station call letters to the guide data. Dish should already have the guide data in the system for all the LIL channels, and as long as the digital/analog feeds of the station match the guide would be correct. Does anyone have a non primary digital feed that does not match the analog feed at this time on their DTV? My DTV only seems to vary some on the commercials since HDTV CBS is a bit different than the analog CBS.
> 
> For the LIL cities providing guide data for the digital OTA stations should be pretty easy since Dish already has the guide data in the stream and all they have to do is match call sign to the analog call sign.


I agree, however this wouldn't work with sub-channels. 009-01 it would work, but when there is a different show on say 009-02 or 009-03, where would they get that data from?


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

Personally, I don't care about the sub-channels. They're usually foreign language or radar loops or something. If they could just get it onto the main channel, I'd be thrilled.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

BroncoFan7 said:


> I agree, however this wouldn't work with sub-channels. 009-01 it would work, but when there is a different show on say 009-02 or 009-03, where would they get that data from?


What would you rather have? No guide data at all, or guide data minus the sub channels? We have to start somewhere. Sub channels wouldn't be so difficult either by the way. Since, a good portion of them simply duplicate the main channel, or have weather radar, either nothing changed, or it takes nothing to add the info "Weather Radar" to the guide. Subchannels are still being explored by local affiliates, a lot of wrinkles have to be ironed out by both dish and the local stations for them to become useful.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

kmcnamara said:


> Personally, I don't care about the sub-channels. They're usually foreign language or radar loops or something. If they could just get it onto the main channel, I'd be thrilled.


In Chicago, the local PAX station has 6 different streams going, all with programming. The local PBS does the PBS HD Channel in the .1 and their regular programming on the .2. Our ABC station reruns local programming on the .2. Bottom line is that there are stations doing more then radar or foreign language then you think.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

PSIP is a good idea but it will never work to a standard until it becomes a part of the FCC regulations of digital broadcast. Until that happens, we can just forget about any standard for guide information from PSIP source. I believe we will not get OTA guide info that is 100% and accurate. I don't bel;ieve it will be Dish's fault but rather one of no accurate info available. Now if you all accept something that is partially correct or something that is a token guide for appearance sake then fine. I believe many here would accept just the network info and assume it is carried by the locals as OK. I think this would be a good idea, but I know many of these same people woild be posting a start thread to annoince a "BUG" every time their local station ran a local program pre-empting a network schedule and their 921 guide failed to list it. Mark would have to make a new rule for this forum section, NO OTA guide inaccuracy posts permitted.

In Jacksonville, we have two stations not doing PSIP at all, This would be ABC and NBC affiliates. Not even call letters! Others transmit call letters. Others transmit inaccurate clock data, sometimes off as much as several hours. It's OK because it isn't regulated. Make PSIP a regulated standard and every station in the country will have to be in compliance. The stations won't want this because it will force them to assign a person to get that information broadcast accurate


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> PSIP is a good idea but it will never work to a standard until it becomes a part of the FCC regulations of digital broadcast. Until that happens, we can just forget about any standard for guide information from PSIP source. I believe we will not get OTA guide info that is 100% and accurate. I don't bel;ieve it will be Dish's fault but rather one of no accurate info available. Now if you all accept something that is partially correct or something that is a token guide for appearance sake then fine. I believe many here would accept just the network info and assume it is carried by the locals as OK. I think this would be a good idea, but I know many of these same people woild be posting a start thread to annoince a "BUG" every time their local station ran a local program pre-empting a network schedule and their 921 guide failed to list it. Mark would have to make a new rule for this forum section, NO OTA guide inaccuracy posts permitted.
> 
> In Jacksonville, we have two stations not doing PSIP at all, This would be ABC and NBC affiliates. Not even call letters! Others transmit call letters. Others transmit inaccurate clock data, sometimes off as much as several hours. It's OK because it isn't regulated. Make PSIP a regulated standard and every station in the country will have to be in compliance. The stations won't want this because it will force them to assign a person to get that information broadcast accurate


What am I missing here, how does Direct TV and Tivo do it, or don't they?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

All of their local guide data is via satellite.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

And Dish should map the OTA channel to it's 'closest available' guide data. Shouldn't be hard (I've got channels that map into the guide in more than one place - like KWGN on 8204 & 9069 and WSBK on 236 & 8775), but there may be a design flaw preventing OTA from using satellite guide data.


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## SlicerMDM (Feb 12, 2003)

ibglowin said:


> I think Denver is an anomaly.......
> 
> I think PSIP is our only realistic chance here.


I guess Dallas is an anomaly too. Valid PSIP here is rare.

I think it will be quite a while before PSIP can be used reliably.


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