# ASK DBS Talk - Won't lock in OTA ABC 41-1



## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Since Mark closed the original thread, I'll have to start a new one to report today's tests on stations with and without PSIP.

Riding along the installation of the local's station tests on adding PSIP equipment today, I got an opportunity to test before and after signals from the same channel with and without the PSIP data. 
I can confirm without any doubt that PSIP turned on will cause the red bar to switch to green and cause the signal to become visible on the remapped channel. 

It's too bad Mark couldn't confirm this requirement of L186 as I had to rely on a deductive reasoning hunch to steer our local station engineer to add the equipment and increase it's priority at the station. 

Today, for me anyway I now have back those lost channels that L186 caused. We had them before but L186 changed the DT station requirement to needing PSIP. 

IMO, the 921 should never require PSIP presence to _receive_ a channel. None of the other receivers require it. However, all receivers require PSIP to properly and accurately remap the channel numbers. TIVO would receive the channels but until today, it would fail to properly populate the guide data and some channel numbers were even wrong.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Maybe it is better to phrase the answer in the form of a question.

I believe I have two stations in my area that don't have PSIP streaming that I am able to get. KBHK channel 45, digital 45, analog 44 is one of them. Normally PSIP would remap it to digital 44, but it isn't there, so it stays at channel 45, it doesn't have any call letters, and I had to manually add them. I called them and they said they didn't have a windows box to generate the bits, that was a few months ago when I called. I believe there was another station in my lineup like that.

I will confirm this later on if that station has added any hardware. At the same time, it is a good idea to ask the question, "Is anyone out there able to lock onto stations and view them that don't have any PSIP transmission on their 921?"

The question has to be asked before making a conclusion.

If it turns out not to be the case, then another theory about the cause of your problems has to be proposed.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

What's REALLY a shame is that E* won't simply come out and answer the question.

It's SUCH a simple answer that would save SO many people SO much effort.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

There are always multiple reasons that a station's signal can have difficulty in not locking but it would be fairly difficult to say that multiple switching on and off of a PSIP data in the transmission is directly synced to the red-green-red-green of the signal bar, as well as a test that demonstrates the loss- no loss of the picture display in sync with an on-off of the PSIP data. But stranger things could happen when acts of God are entered into the equation. 

If you switch your room light on and off with the light switch, would you suspect it was the power company that was switching your electric on and off and the light switch was just coincidental.

I'm not trying to be a wise guy but rather trying to explain that I am certain this is the case. If the signal is quite solid, not weak and wavering, but solid strong and red, turning on a properly configured PSIP fixed data will cause the 921 to lock. There was a slight delay in the time the switch was made and the bar turning green and back to red was instant. The picture disappearing was a longer delay with a freeze of the image first before it was gone. 

BTW- I too was able to get a lock green bar then quickly save on the non-PSIP signal for our channel 13 once but it was extremely unstable and it only happened once. As others have reported, I could never get it long enough to register an actual picture.

So far since the PSIP has been added permanently late this afternoon all three channels are locked and steady. 

Additionally, other locals here in town have all reported issues regarding the PSIP problem are now fixed. 


Another question to get an answer from your station is do thay do CC on their channel. It is an FCC requirement but do they do it? If they do then PSIP data is in the stream although it may not all be properly configured. One of our locals had PSIP active for nearly 3 months before they had the clock data working properly. You really need to dig deeper into the intracacies of PSIP before drawing any conclusions too. I'm not sure what your friend was trying to say about that "windows box" but if it was like our local, he didn't either and it referred to the clock data bits. They added a PC to generate the clock data for the PSIP equipment. However, other data for fixed bits were present, such as channel number and call. There is quite a bit more to this than a simple box. Your stations could have partial PSIP implemented to comply with the law and that data could also be what the 921 requires to create the front end signal lock, but not generate other data in the 921. Was I clear on this?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

So, we now know that under Transmit Condition Set "X" (I've just coined a term here), PSIP data is absolutely required for the channel to work.

Now the question is, what is "TCS X"? Is it 100% of the DTV stations all the time? Or something less than that? If the latter, than what are TCS Y, Z, etc., and what is needed to get them to lock?

After thinking about this a bit, because Eldon is always wanting to know the specifics of the local station, I'm getting the feeling that THEY don't know what it takes to get a DTV channel to lock in.

Maybe the Eldon OTA software designer quit and didn't leave any notes. I've seen that happen before. Of course, a good manager never would let the exposure (no documentation) occur in the first place.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> What's REALLY a shame is that E* won't simply come out and answer the question.
> 
> It's SUCH a simple answer that would save SO many people SO much effort.


Refreshing, perspective! :bang


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> So, we now know that under Transmit Condition Set "X" (I've just coined a term here), PSIP data is absolutely required for the channel to work.
> 
> Now the question is, what is "TCS X"? Is it 100% of the DTV stations all the time? Or something less than that? If the latter, than what are TCS Y, Z, etc., and what is needed to get them to lock?


And there is where we find the disconnect! We want to know what "TCS X" is, and we are comparing it to what we know it 'should be'. "TCS X" should include all of our local stations. To do that, it needs to deal with the lowest common denominator, and all combinations of data bits. The lowest common denominator should be set by FCC guidelines, and yes, DonLandis has talked about those guidelines with CC and such. Unfortunately, the lowest common denominator is lower than those guidelines. It needs to deal with no PSIP as well.

If DonLandis' isn't getting stations when they don't transmit PSIP, it doesn't necessarily mean this is the cause. It is unlikely, but it could be something else. If all of the people cannot view a station without PSIP, then I think we found a problem.

If all cats are animals, then are all animals cats? Does a lack of TSIP cause problems every time? That is the question.

As far as the station engineer at KBHK goes, he told me that they had no hardware available to generate any PSIP at all.


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## chuckbernard (Aug 3, 2004)

They only local OTA digital station that I cannot receive is the only one which does NOT transmit any PSIP. I called the station and asked and they told me that they don't have ANY of the equipment yet but may add PSIP by the end of the year. My 921 will lock on to the signal and I can save the station (power level is at max 125). However, I only get a black screen when trying to view the station.
(The station is KRNV NBC in Reno Nevada)


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"As far as the station engineer at KBHK goes, he told me that they had no hardware available to generate any PSIP at all."_

And that is different in what you earlier said which was "no windows box". I wasn't quite sure what that meant so I mabe some speculations about it and compared it to another local station who at first had no clock generator and referred to a PC running windows that he used to generate clock data for the PSIP equipment. Someday I might ask him Why his PSIP equipment needed that externally.

OK, so Jsanders- KHBK, I presume comes in with no problem on L186 for you just like all stations that do have PSIP and like it did prior to L186 which is the point of your thinking PSIP is not _always_ required for lock and visibility. Thus you are outside of the TCS X. When I said no problem I just mean it has no call sign, no channel number remap etc. but you can scan it in and it displays OK. Can you tell us how that station is received on your 921? Sorry if you already did somewhere but I forgot what you said or where you said it.
Again I have to ask Does KHBK exibit CC on it's transmission? Would you test for that? If it does, then no matter what your contact person is telling you, according to the PSIP organization, his station is transmitting PSIP data and maybe he didn't understand your question.

For all who would like to get a real short read on PSIP advantages here is a short web page: http://www.psip.org/psip_reasons.html

On that page I was reminded about that PSIP also carries V-Chip info. Does anyone think this may set additional TCS for the 921 as Simple Simon has defined it?


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"My 921 will lock on to the signal and I can save the station (power level is at max 125). However, I only get a black screen when trying to view the station.
(The station is KRNV NBC in Reno Nevada)
"_

Chuck- Two points, that is the same condition I had here.

second- You should know what I did here- In addition to requesting the station ramp up it's plans to offer PSIP by the end of the year, remind them that they also are required under FCC regulation to pass on the Closed Caption that the network is feeding them. They're smart enough to figure out that the only way they can do that is add the PSIP equipment and the minimum fixed data and that they are currently in violation of CC regs, subject to fine etc. 
I believe that this station here ramped up its PSIP plans for two reasons I gave them, the CC regulations and that many could not see their station because the receivers required it to channel map and display.


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## jamullian (May 7, 2004)

Let me confuse the issue here.

My experience with KNSD [NBC San Diego Ch40DT, Ch39Analog] is that after they increased their (DT) transmission power I can no longer lock on them. The same "much red signal strength but no green lock" syndrome, and if I do get a lock a frequent grey screen lockup. Both the 921 and the 811 (now with 269). (No, the antenna/amp are not being overloaded, see below).

Yet the station engineers tell me that they are broadcasting PSIP - and indeed when I lock (without the slightest problem) using a Samsung SIR-T351 or an LG LST-3510A, I see the call sign and clock, though they are not broadcasting an EPG (nor did they before).

So I don't know if there are levels of PSIP implementation that the 921 and 811 require, or whether - personal pet theory advanced here before: The presence of an adjacent strong Analog channel (the only such combination in this area) is causing an overload of the 921/811 tuning mechanism.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Shame you couldn't put a notch filter on the antenna to knock out the analog 39 just to see what happens.


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## chuckbernard (Aug 3, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> second- You should know what I did here- In addition to requesting the station ramp up it's plans to offer PSIP by the end of the year, remind them that they also are required under FCC regulation to pass on the Closed Caption that the network is feeding them. They're smart enough to figure out that the only way they can do that is add the PSIP equipment and the minimum fixed data and that they are currently in violation of CC regs, subject to fine etc.
> I believe that this station here ramped up its PSIP plans for two reasons I gave them, the CC regulations and that many could not see their station because the receivers required it to channel map and display.


I am going to call them on Monday and pass along this information. If anything it might light a fire under the managements bottoms and lighten up their wallets a little so that they can get the PSIP equipment sooner rather than later.
Thanks


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## jamullian (May 7, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> Shame you couldn't put a notch filter on the antenna to knock out the analog 39 just to see what happens.


If you have one lying around I can borrow, I'll be glad to give it a whirl


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Sorry, no. However, they ARE cheap - hard part is tuning them.

Check around at local electronics stores - especially ham radio type places - those guys generally would find something like this fun to play with.


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## allenwoodruff (Feb 3, 2004)

My local ABC station went live a few months back and I still cannot record or pause on that channel. I seem to remember a thread sometime ago and many people were having the same problem. Below is the station's contact info if anyone from Dish is reading this. I have no problems with all of the other major stations.

The station is ABC 33/40 in Birmingham, AL.
205-403-3329
www.abc3340.com


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Allen-

There is another thread about that issue. I have it here with WB or WJWB channel 17/34DT. No PVR functions at all. 

All we know is it is another bug in the long list that is a 921 issue. I also know that the HDTIVO has no such propblems like this with any station/channel. For me in studying the signal transmitted by WJWB, there is nothing unique about what they are doing except they are transmitting 1 channels away from another DT station on channel 32 DT. 

Many locations around the country have had problems with this issue.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

http://www.dewtronics.com/tutorials/descramblers/notchfilter/df222.html

This may work if you want to do some experimenting.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

I just received information from our local ABC affiliate, digital channel 34. They are not going to add the PSIP until the, "near future." Unless there is a fix for locking on digital channels without PSIP, I hope that the near future is quicker than a glacier crawling up a mountain!!!


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I just read on www.tvtechnology.com website that the FCC just passed a slew of new rules to help accelerate the dtv transition.

Among them firm deadlines for broadcasters to mazimize DTV power levels, set up a channel election process starting in November 2004 for broadcasters to pick their final DTV allotment, and require broadcsters to transmit PSIP information in the DTV signal and eliminate for now the simulcasting requirement.

One of the interesting things is all stations ( ABC ,CBS,FOX,and NBC) in the top 100 markets have to be at full power by July 2005. The rest of us get it by July 2006.

Also PSIP will now be required by all stations in the country. It will be the standard. PSIP allows for such things as captioning , channel identificaiton, program guides and V-chip.

Very interesting and it might be just what we need to get the ota channel problems resolved once and for all once implemented.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I just read on www.tvtechnology.com website that the FCC just passed a slew of new rules to help accelerate the dtv transition.
> 
> Among them firm deadlines for broadcasters to mazimize DTV power levels, set up a channel election process starting in November 2004 for broadcasters to pick their final DTV allotment, and require broadcsters to transmit PSIP information in the DTV signal and eliminate for now the simulcasting requirement.
> 
> ...


Most excellent news. Too bad it has to be so far into the future. There is something else before congress where a committee actually has created a white zone for those who are not in the area of HD Digital which may access to ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX. There is some process of going through the satellite companies, I'll be checking into it soon.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Thanks MIke for the advisory on this.

While the decision does, now, formally adopt the PSIP data as a regulated part of the ATSC signal, it, as far as I could tell, says nothing about a deadline for compliance. Should we assume that the date is effective immediately? If so then all non-PSIP local stations will have the usual 30 days to get in compliance. 

The effective date for the decision was 8/4/04.

Thise who have stations in your community, write them now and let them know you know about the rule change.


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