# pandora audio wicked overmodulated?



## gemery (Apr 10, 2007)

Love the new Pandora app on my HR24-100, except the audio as compared to the tv audio is wicked loud and sounds overmodulated.

Turned it on last night and scared the heck out of the cat, had to pry her out of the ceiling..

Is it just me?

0x59c


----------



## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

Pandora is ~ 10 db louder than the average audio. I've never heard anything on Pandora that sounds remotely over-modulated... on the contrary, the audio quality and separation appears significantly better than the SonicTap channels...

When switching to Pandora, my cats don't care, but I have had to pry the wife off the ceiling...


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

How does the over-modulation you experience manifest? I.e., what does it sound like?


----------



## shmengie (Apr 12, 2007)

i was pleasantly surprised at the audio quality. indeed, much better than sonic tap.

and yes, please: describe over modulation. never heard that term before.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

shmengie said:


> and yes, please: describe over modulation. never heard that term before.


Technically, it is driving the modulation of an FM transmitter past its 100% range, i.e. outside of its given bandwidth. This sounds to a listener as distortion, since the receiver is clipping off the out of bounds signal.

On audio, and not a transmitter, I would be more prone to think he means it is being sent at well over the average spec limits for the input rating. If the amp/tv/etc has a 1V peak to peak input level, and the DirecTv box on Pandora is outputting 1.5V peak to peak, the limiter inside the amp is going to cut off the extra .5 volts to prevent damage to itself, and that will result in clipping the high volume passages.

While it is true Pandora is outputting louder signal than regular programming, I havent heard any clipping. YOu would really need to run to output of the Directv box through an O-scope to tell if it was or not, for sure.

Since Pandora is stereo 2+0, its going to be a different signal than normal TV, so the OP might have to change his amp to match the setting of the music, be it Stereo, or using one of the amps DSP modes to simulate surround.

I simply turn off my rear speakers, and just use the front L,R and Sub when listening to Pandora. Leaving my amp on Surround just does not sound right to me, since the music isnt encoded for surround. YMMV.


----------



## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

as Davenlr mentioned, when you overdrive a signal, you get clipping. The downside of clipping is it squares off the signal and results in harmonics. On an audio signal, that's sometimes described as a harsh sound characteristic. The problem is that depending on your listening volume, the harmonics can sometimes have sufficient energy to blow tweeters.  

When the music is too loud and you don't have enough power, you blow tweeters.
When the music is too loud and you have too much power, you blow woofers.
When the music is not loud enough and you blow speakers, you just have cheap speakers.


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks for the expos..... still hoping to hear what gemery means by it; what it sounds like to him.


----------



## gemery (Apr 10, 2007)

"Laxguy" said:


> Thanks for the expos..... still hoping to hear what gemery means by it; what it sounds like to him.


I have the audio from my recieved fed into a stereo system, nothing fancy, you can see on the equalizer meter that the audio is topping out, like someone elae added about 10db higher.

The audio imho sounds worse than the sonic channels do.

I cant describe it right, but to me it sounds like the audio from Pandora overdrives the audio reciever, which you can see by looking at the unscientific meters..


----------



## gemery (Apr 10, 2007)

"Davenlr" said:


> Technically, it is driving the modulation of an FM transmitter past its 100% range, i.e. outside of its given bandwidth. This sounds to a listener as distortion, since the receiver is clipping off the out of bounds signal.
> 
> On audio, and not a transmitter, I would be more prone to think he means it is being sent at well over the average spec limits for the input rating. If the amp/tv/etc has a 1V peak to peak input level, and the DirecTv box on Pandora is outputting 1.5V peak to peak, the limiter inside the amp is going to cut off the extra .5 volts to prevent damage to itself, and that will result in clipping the high volume passages.
> 
> ...


This is what it is doing, probably overdriving the input to my audio reciever, causing it to sound distorted, which it is.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

What equalizer are you using? Most have a master gain control to turn the input down. If its built into the amp, what model are you using? What type input (RCA or digital)? Might just need an attenuator if the amp doesnt have a gain control. If its got meters on it, you would think it would.


----------



## Podkayne (Nov 1, 2007)

I had an issue with no audio at all on Pandora through the optical out to my Denon AVR 4800, and after fussing with it a bit, switched back to TV and the sound came through fine. Thus isolated to Pandora, I went back to Pandora, had the same problem, shrugged and switched to the TV speakers, which were fine (so audio through the HDMI cable, but not the optical to receiver?). I nevertheless was enjoying the background music, when after about 15 minutes, the receiver audio kicked in! Now this HR20-100 has been beyond painfully slow since the upgrade to the HDGUI, but 15 minutes?? I'm hoping it was a fluke...


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Podkayne said:


> I had an issue with no audio at all on Pandora through the optical out to my Denon AVR 4800, and after fussing with it a bit, switched back to TV and the sound came through fine. Thus isolated to Pandora, I went back to Pandora, had the same problem, shrugged and switched to the TV speakers, which were fine (so audio through the HDMI cable, but not the optical to receiver?). I nevertheless was enjoying the background music, when after about 15 minutes, the receiver audio kicked in! Now this HR20-100 has been beyond painfully slow since the upgrade to the HDGUI, but 15 minutes?? I'm hoping it was a fluke...


I suspect that's more of a function of the Amp-receiver than the HR20!

Have you tried wired from DVR to Amp?


----------



## chevyguy559 (Sep 19, 2008)

I've found the audio quality quite nice on Pandora, I really like the feature and the ability to put a basketball game on and have music in the background. I have noticed that any Ads that come on Pandora (I only have a free account) are considerably louder than the music and I have to turn it down a bit when the ads come on.....


----------



## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

Podkayne said:


> I had an issue with no audio at all on Pandora through the optical out to my Denon AVR 4800, and after fussing with it a bit, switched back to TV and the sound came through fine. Thus isolated to Pandora, I went back to Pandora, had the same problem, shrugged and switched to the TV speakers, which were fine (so audio through the HDMI cable, but not the optical to receiver?). I nevertheless was enjoying the background music, when after about 15 minutes, the receiver audio kicked in! Now this HR20-100 has been beyond painfully slow since the upgrade to the HDGUI, but 15 minutes?? I'm hoping it was a fluke...





Laxguy said:


> I suspect that's more of a function of the Amp-receiver than the HR20!
> 
> Have you tried wired from DVR to Amp?


I've also have audio problems with Pandora. After a song ends in Pandora there is sometimes a digital chirp. Sometimes at a song end, the digital audio drops out and doesn't return until a second or 2 into the next song. (like slow squelch...) Sometimes there is no digital audio output at all (TOSlink or HDMI). Analog output OK. IMHO it's not the HR20 or the A/V equipment, it's something in the signal...


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

gemery said:


> Love the new Pandora app on my HR24-100, except the audio as compared to the tv audio is wicked loud and sounds overmodulated.
> 
> Turned it on last night and scared the heck out of the cat, had to pry her out of the ceiling..
> 
> Is it just me?


"Wicked" overmodulated? Pretty easy to guess what market you are in.


----------



## gemery (Apr 10, 2007)

"TomCat" said:


> "Wicked" overmodulated? Pretty easy to guess what market you are in.


Yea thats the Massachusetts coming out..


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I just checked the Pandora app on my Tivo Premier, and it is actually louder than the HR24-500. I have to turn the volume of the amp down another 6db for comfortable listening from the Tivo as compared to the HR24. So apparently its not just a Directv app thing.


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Volume differences between sources is not uncommon. The difference is that TV signals are limited federally to be what the loudest sound can be. 

If you're using an AVR make sure you don't have it set to a pro logic codec or something. Stereo is the optimal and even multi-channel stereo can sound wierd in a room that's not designed for audio. Seperating 2 channel stereo into multiple channels can have effects people don't realise.

If it's just volume level turn it down prior to starting Pandora as it will be higher normally than your receiver.


----------



## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

gemery said:


> Love the new Pandora app on my HR24-100, except the audio as compared to the tv audio is wicked loud and sounds overmodulated.
> 
> Turned it on last night and scared the heck out of the cat, had to pry her out of the ceiling..
> 
> ...


Yes, I noticed that as well the 1 time I used Pandora. I also have Pandora as an app on my TV and my Xbox and my BluRay and it doesn't sound a heck of a lot better.

Without even reading your message how could I have possibly known where you were from?  I guess DirecTV "dropped the ball" on that one <pun intended>. :lol:


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

My Denon has a setting to equalize the volume between Dolby Digital (most D* channels) and PCM (some SD channels, and Pandora). Setting it to -10db, has both at the same volume now. Might see if your AVR has a similar setting.


----------



## augisdad (Sep 29, 2011)

jes said:


> I've also have audio problems with Pandora. After a song ends in Pandora there is sometimes a digital chirp. Sometimes at a song end, the digital audio drops out and doesn't return until a second or 2 into the next song. (like slow squelch...) Sometimes there is no digital audio output at all (TOSlink or HDMI). Analog output OK. IMHO it's not the HR20 or the A/V equipment, it's something in the signal...


I have also noticed no audio when switching to another input mode on my Mitsubishi TV and then coming back to Pandora. I have to exit out of Pandora before sound is restored. I've noticed the digital chirp as well between songs.


----------



## mgavs (Jun 17, 2007)

I reported the Pandora audio cut out between songs a few times. It is an HR2x software issue. In my case is causes more than a chirp, and if you guys are paying attention.... if you change your mode to a non-default surround mode it will go back to default between songs on some receivers because the digital stream is cut off and the receiver resets to default. I would really appreciate you guys posting this in the issues forum for this software release since I was the only one to raise this issue a few weeks ago.


----------



## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

mgavs said:


> I reported the Pandora audio cut out between songs a few times. It is an HR2x software issue. In my case is causes more than a chirp, and if you guys are paying attention.... if you change your mode to a non-default surround mode it will go back to default between songs on some receivers because the digital stream is cut off and the receiver resets to default. I would really appreciate you guys posting this in the issues forum for this software release since I was the only one to raise this issue a few weeks ago.


I've been reporting it weekly on the CE releases...


----------



## gemery (Apr 10, 2007)

The latest software, 59e I believe, not with the unit, seemed to resolve the issue for me. audio sounds a bit louder than normal tv, but certainally not as overmodulated as before..


----------



## BAHitman (Oct 24, 2007)

Pandora sonds to me like it is in low quality mode... wish there was a setting to change it to high quality mode....


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

BAHitman said:


> Pandora sonds to me like it is in low quality mode... wish there was a setting to change it to high quality mode....


There is, but it costs ca. $ 36 a year, and is available via computer.


----------



## BAHitman (Oct 24, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> There is, but it costs ca. $ 36 a year, and is available via computer.


I am a paid subscriber, and i can get Hq on my phone or Pc, just wish there was a setting on the Der as well...


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

BAHitman said:


> I am a paid subscriber, and i can get Hq on my phone or Pc, just wish there was a setting on the Der as well...


On your phone?? What bit rate there?

IAE, it sounds fine for casual or b/g music through a receiver....


----------



## BAHitman (Oct 24, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> On your phone?? What bit rate there?quote]
> 
> Donno... apps just has a setting for quality, High or Normal...
> 
> The HR Pandora app sounds to me like it's using normal quality, I wish that I could set it to high. sounds alot better, but I believe you have to be a paid subscriber to get he higher quality audio...


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

BAHitman said:


> Laxguy said:
> 
> 
> > On your phone?? What bit rate there?quote]
> ...


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Laxguy said:


> There is, but it costs ca. $ 36 a year, and is available via computer.


P. T. Barnum was right about suckers being born every minute, apparently (not you guys, but those who think throwing money at it will buy better quality, which it won't). Pandora culls from 1800 live internet radio broadcasts, does it not? And they vary considerably in quality, with most being the equivalent of a 32-64 kbps MP3 or even less. The paid version removes the ads, but I don't think there is any practical or technical way to increase the quality. Limiting the bit stream to generate a lower-quality free stream would be killing the golden goose, and I doubt they could do that. They are dangerously close to SiriusXM quality already (meaning it isn't really very good at all) which costs about 9 or 10 times that; the quality sure can't get any better, and it damned well better not get any worse.

Bottom line, they exist in a narrow bandwidth of low quality already, and it seems quite impossible to leverage two streams of different quality levels out of that as a practical business model.

Not that I don't like Pandora, I do, as a free service. On my wishlist? A car radio or iPod that doesn't need the internet to get Pandora. Let me use a thumb drive to record Pandora overnight on my computer and move that to the car or iPod for playback throughout the day. They could make the recording and the flash drive dongle proprietary and have anything recorded turn into a pumpkin in 18 hours if they were worried about piracy. I'd pay them good money for that, and they wouldn't have to rely on ads and $3 subscriptions as their only business model.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

TomCat said:


> P. T. Barnum was right about suckers being born every minute, apparently (not you guys, but those who think throwing money at it will buy better quality, which it won't).


On the DirecTv app, you are correct. It is fixed at 128kb/s AAC audio. On the computer, on the other hand, the $36 a year buys you an app which plays at 192kb/s AAC. Without the app, the computer (browser version) is limited to 64kb/s.


----------



## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

TomCat said:


> Pandora culls from 1800 live internet radio broadcasts, does it not?


Surprised to hear that. I thought they were their own source and developed 'personalized' playlists for you based on your musical tastes.

Do you have a source for that claim?

While listening, I do not detect a change in quality while listening, as if they are moving form station to station for me as you describe.


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

TomCat said:


> Pandora culls from 1800 live internet radio broadcasts, does it not? And they vary considerably in quality, with most being the equivalent of a 32-64 kbps MP3 or even less. The paid version removes the ads, but I don't think there is any practical or technical way to increase the quality.


Re: Culling from others-I'd say not, but I don't have primo information on that. What's your source?

Similarly, how do you get the "equivalent" of 32-64 kbps??


----------



## byrd (Apr 29, 2009)

TomCat said:


> On my wishlist? A car radio or iPod that doesn't need the internet to get Pandora. Let me use a thumb drive to record Pandora overnight on my computer and move that to the car or iPod for playback throughout the day. They could make the recording and the flash drive dongle proprietary and have anything recorded turn into a pumpkin in 18 hours if they were worried about piracy. I'd pay them good money for that, and they wouldn't have to rely on ads and $3 subscriptions as their only business model.


This is a little off the topic but... If this is on your wish list, you should just switch over to Slacker Radio. Similar to Pandora, but on your Ipod or Android, you can cache any (I think up to 25) of your stations so that you can play it back when you do not have an internet connection. I usually cache stations at home on my wi-fi (there's a setting to tell it to ONLY download in the middle of the night on wi-fi), then listen during my drive to work. NO recording in real time overnight. It just takes a few minutes per station. And no moving anything back an forth to a thumb drive.

This comes as part of the $3 monthly subscription. If you pay $9 per month you can also cache custom playlists, artist specific stations, and full length albums. And nothing turns into a "pumpkin". It's there until you listen or delete the cache.

IMHO (and I believe other reviews agree) Slacker sound quality us MUCH better than Pandora. Plus the paid service truly gets unlimited skips, not like Pandora's limit of 12 per 24hours. Plus Slacker has a slew of premade stations if you're not included to spend the time to customize your own. Over all, I think Slacker is a far superior service. I don't know why they aren't more popular (it's 2011 editor's choice in PCMag.com), and I'd love it if it were integrated into my HR-24 instead of Pandora.


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks! I've just added Slacker to my Macs and iDevices. It does sound fuller in sound Q. 

I'd love to know the actual bit rates- may be stated on their site, but there's a lot of searching to do.


----------



## byrd (Apr 29, 2009)

Laxguy said:


> I'd love to know the actual bit rates- may be stated on their site, but there's a lot of searching to do.


I've looked before, but I've never been able to find any definitive answer. And it has changed over time (even some items mentioned in the 2011 article at PCMag.com are already out of date). I've used Slacker for a few years now. When I first got my Android a little over 2 years ago, there was only 1 setting for audio quality, then I seem to remember high and low quality, now the app has "good", "better", or "best" settings. I don't know what numbers those settings correspond to, but I currently split the difference have it set to "better" quality.

I live in a rural area, and only have 3G service for internet. I'm limited to 20gigs a month so I try to limit my bandwidth. Although once a station is cached, it doesn't re-cache the station until you listen to that music, so that speeds up the process and also reduces the bandwidth usage after the initial caching of a station.

Lastly, I also very frequently listen to Slacker with a set of Sony MDREX310LP Headphones and am quite happy.

Okay now I'll shut up.... didn't mean to hi-jack the thread!


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

http://help.pandora.com/customer/portal/articles/90985-audio-quality


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Davenlr said:


> http://help.pandora.com/customer/portal/articles/90985-audio-quality


Thanks, Dave. I've looked it up twice over the last six months, even posted a link a while ago.... it just isn't intuitive to me where to find it.

And the Slacker site is worse; it shows this:



> What is the audio quality of your radio stations?
> All the audio played on Slacker is encoded to play at near-CD quality, even on slow connections. While the music is encoded using different bitrates and codecs based off of connection and platform, you should find the audio on all platforms to play at near-CD audio quality.


I wrote them and have an ack. that they received the Q. "24 hours" or so....


----------

