# Is anyone else losing confidence that the HR20 will ever be perfect?



## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

I remember when I first came here and people were having issues and many were saying the issues should be fixed by the new year. We're now in the new year and there have been quite a few software releases, but yet, many issues still remain. 

Now, I know nothing about writing software, so I have no idea the challenges they are facing. I believe the box has been out for more than 5 months now and I have no idea how long they tested it internally, but I would think it should at least be perfect at the basic functions of a DVR; recording and playing back (and allowing commercials to be FF'ed through). But that's not the case. Random reboots. Freezes/lock-ups. Unwatchable recordings. I consider myself very lucky in that my box is pretty stable. Rarely will I miss anything because of it, but I still find that my box locks up and I have to RBR. I also have some annoying issues, such as the random screensaver bug and the super zoom/crop issue as well as some other issues.

I don't want to turn this into an HR20 vs Tivo argument, but that's my baseline as that's what I've had for 3 years prior to getting the HR20. My R10 or Hughes HDVR2 have never locked up. Never needed a reboot. Never caused me to miss a recording. (Okay, that's a fib; the hard drive died in the HDVR2, but after I popped in a replacement, the thing is perfect as ever). If the HR20 actually recorded and played back 100% of the time, I could unequiviocally say that I like the HR20 better than the R10 (except the lack of FF autocorrection). I definitely like the GUI better in the HR20. 

So lets just say I was very optimistic when I got mine in October that this would be a perfect, stable, rock solid box, but now I guess I'm cautiously optimistic and that saddens me because I want this thing to work great. 

So how about you? Will it ever be perfect? I'm curious to see how everyone else is feeling at this point.


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## Camaro305 (Sep 27, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> So how about you? Will it ever be perfect? I'm curious to see how everyone else is feeling at this point.


Nothing is perfect, though I feel it will be pretty close. From the feedback, it seems 119 is a step forward.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Camaro305 said:


> Nothing is perfect, though I feel it will be pretty close. From the feedback, it seems 119 is a step forward.


To me, the issues thread is part of the reason for some of my pessimism. I keep seeing the same issues over and over and some new one come up. I don't really see much improvement 

And again, I don't want to turn it into HR20 vs tivo, but my tivos have been perfect when it comes to recording and playing back. I know there is a bug out there, but I don't think I've been hit with it, although, honestly, I don't use my tivo much since it's the back up for the HR20, and as I said, my HR20 hasn't really missed much, so I don't go over my tivo with a fine tooth comb to make sure it's recorded everything, but my feeling is, if it's missed anything, it's not much. And, I've never had any playback issues on my tivos either.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Nothing is perfect, but I feel that at some point, they will at least get the basics working. I'm upset about all the bugs, but I do think with the competition breathing down their necks they will make this box work.


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## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

I've never owned a Tivo. The HR20 is my first and so far only DVR. It's worked very well for me since I got it in the middle of Oct. 2006.

I really can't complain. I have not lost any recordings. 

Of course I don't have a reference point like many of you.


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## redrocker (Jan 3, 2007)

I think D* is like watching LOST........We keep hangin on for the next HD channel or the next POE (piece of equipment) or the next software download & once we get one of them it doesn't do much for us or it confuses us even more or seems like going backwards. All of this while D* (the company) just keeps bouncing from one corporation to the next. And the answer is.........NO, I am not confident, but hopefull. Just wait & see whats next.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> Nothing is perfect, but I feel that at some point, they will at least get the basics working. I'm upset about all the bugs, but I do think with the competition breathing down their necks they will make this box work.


Again, my tivos have recorded everything I've asked (to the best of my knowledge) and played back everything and have never froze or locked up. To me, that is perfect.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> I've never owned a Tivo. The HR20 is my first and so far only DVR. It's worked very well for me since I got it in the middle of Oct. 2006.
> 
> I really can't complain. I have not lost any recordings.
> 
> Of course I don't have a reference point like many of you.


Have you ever had to reboot? Unit froze? Not recorded something? Got a partial?

If yes, then I'd say that's something to "complain" about. Not literally to D*, but then it's not perfect.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

redrocker said:


> I think D* is like watching LOST........We keep hangin on for the next HD channel or the next POE (piece of equipment) or the next software download & once we get one of them it doesn't do much for us or it confuses us even more or seems like going backwards. All of this while D* (the company) just keeps bouncing from one corporation to the next. And the answer is.........NO, I am not confident, but hopefull. Just wait & see whats next.


 LOL. I keep hanging on with Lost, but I want answers.


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

I too dont think it will ever be perfect (especially if by "perfect" you mean exactly what all us DBSTalk users want it to be  ), but I think they should at least get a handle on the larger issues.

I didnt have my HR20 when 10b was in release candidate, so the rest of my reply might be biased. Ive watched 115 come out as an RC, and Ive seen the perpetual all h-e-double hockey sticks break loose. Now 119 comes out, and mostly everyone seems happy with it. But in the end, did anything improve from 10b? 119 seems to be more fixing whatever 115 messed up. Thats not an improvement, its just getting back to square one. Sure maybe 119 is a little more responsive, but most of the things it fixed were caused by 115. Whereas 10b seemed pretty stable (I know I havent had any issues with 10b, but I havent stressed the heck out of it yet). I see that OTA seems a little better with 119, but again that seems spotty (people are talking about how their OTA got worse or more sensitive, which doesnt make it better in my book).

I have heard historically that even Tivo had its growing pains. I got mine when the HDVR2 had just come out, and there were *no* issues. Its still going, and I still have *no* issues. But I dont know how long it took to get there. How long has the HR20 been out? I think we just need to be more patient (coming from the least patient person in the world). But it is disappointing that sometimes it seems new versions are just fixing what the old versions broke, instead of moving forward.

-Chris


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

chrisexv6 said:


> I too dont think it will ever be perfect (especially if by "perfect" you mean exactly what all us DBSTalk users want it to be  ), but I think they should at least get a handle on the larger issues.
> 
> I didnt have my HR20 when 10b was in release candidate, so the rest of my reply might be biased. Ive watched 115 come out as an RC, and Ive seen the perpetual all h-e-double hockey sticks break loose. Now 119 comes out, and mostly everyone seems happy with it. But in the end, did anything improve from 10b? 119 seems to be more fixing whatever 115 messed up. Thats not an improvement, its just getting back to square one. Sure maybe 119 is a little more responsive, but most of the things it fixed were caused by 115. Whereas 10b seemed pretty stable (I know I havent had any issues with 10b, but I havent stressed the heck out of it yet). I see that OTA seems a little better with 119, but again that seems spotty (people are talking about how their OTA got worse or more sensitive, which doesnt make it better in my book).
> 
> ...


Very good points, Chris. It does seem like 119 was basically trying to fix 115. But there are still people reporting random reboots (though not as many) with 119. I have seen any improvement with 119 at all.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

chrisexv6 said:


> I have heard historically that even Tivo had its growing pains. I got mine when the HDVR2 had just come out, and there were *no* issues. Its still going, and I still have *no* issues. But I dont know how long it took to get there. How long has the HR20 been out? I think we just need to be more patient (coming from the least patient person in the world).
> -Chris


Well said. When Tivo first started, they also had their share of problems. The engineers continue to work on getting the HR20 in tip top shape.

Personally, ever since I downloaded 119, I haven't had any problems at all. Not to say there are no bugs left, but I haven't seen any with this new release.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Chris Blount said:


> Well said. When Tivo first started, they also had their share of problems. The engineers continue to work on getting the HR20 in tip top shape.
> 
> Personally, ever since I downloaded 119, I haven't had any problems at all. Not to say there are no bugs left, but I haven't seen any with this new release.


Chris, if you read the other Chris' post carefully, he says he got his HDVR2 when it first came out and he had *no* issues. Now, I'm not denying there were issues, just clarifying.

Any clue how long it took to get the series 2 Directivos stable after they were released?


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

For me its a non-starter. I am not going to switch to Charter cable !danger: ....Terrible PQ and even worse service....Dish network....much the same as D* from the local subs I've talked with. So what are you going to do? D* has always made bonehead decisions in my view, TIVO vs. In-House DVR is just the latest. To a LOT of us D* is our ONLY sensible choice. So we are'stuck' with the HR20 if we want to record and playback mpeg-4 HD video. And, while my HR20 has made a 180 in the past month with the software updates, from nothing to doing EXACTLY what I want it to, I am still not confident that it will EVER be ready for primetime, with all ports working as advertised and all function working 95%. It'll be just like cable used to be, great service, lousy box. Now its lousy service, lousy box.

As an aside, I think that the whole thing is caused by corporate America's refusing to EVER hear the word NO. Everyone is SO scared of losing their job or being ostrichsized for voicing their opinions. I am more than sure SOMEONE tried to tell the powers that be at D* that the HR20 was NOT ready. He/she was overruled, I am sure. Why, it just COULDN"T be so! The salesman said the box was READY for us! Why, it must be the no-good software developers, Fire any one that says it cannot be done. It MUST be DONE DO IT! So the developers that are left put their heads down because the have families and wives and mortgages and tries to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so to speak. :nono:


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Again, my tivos have recorded everything I've asked (to the best of my knowledge) and played back everything and have never froze or locked up. To me, that is perfect.


I've had three D*Tivos and over the years they've been solid. Perfect? No, but they did what they were advertised to do. The HR20 is getting closer. So far, I have had most of the bugs that people are reporting, but it has yet to miss a recording (that I didn't screw up myself), and with the exception of some padding issues, I've gotten what I've asked for. The reboots are problematic, especially when it happens when recording something at the time, but with the latest rev (Elvis 2), I haven't had that issue. There are some great things on this box. I love the mini-guide, which I've only had on ONE D* box, but on all my E* boxes when I had them some years back. The interactive stuff is kind of cool too. So I am optimisitic they will get this fixed. As others have said, when the D*Tivos first came out, there were issues, and the new S3 Tivos have had their share of issues as well. What I think D* needs to do now is start to make these their standard receivers. It would put them one step ahead of cable, FIOS and E*. What annoys me is the nerve they have charging us a premium for these boxes that don't work that well. Yeah, many of us have gotten our HR20s at a discount or free, but the average person who doesn't know about this forum is paying $200 and up for his, and it's not working right.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Chris Blount said:


> Well said. When Tivo first started, they also had their share of problems. The engineers continue to work on getting the HR20 in tip top shape.
> 
> Personally, ever since I downloaded 119, I haven't had any problems at all. Not to say there are no bugs left, but I haven't seen any with this new release.


I owned one of the original standalone Philips Tivos. I sold it 6 years later on ebay for $320 (with lifetime license), and it was still working flawlessly. We have owned both the Hughes (from day one) and R10 Directivos (still using two of the latter, one purchased used), and never had to do a single reboot. The only time we had a missed recording (which happened to be the finale of Sex and the City, so it was important to the females in our house), Directv had messed up the guide (it still recorded perfectly on our standalone Philips box, for whatever reason).

While I understand some people might have had problems with the HR10-250 (we don't own one), to say that the HR20 launch is in any way comparable to the Directivo launches just doesn't compute. It's not even close based on anecdotal evidence (since thread post numbers are too difficult to decipher), and I could care less about keeping Tivo nor am I wedded to the Tivo GUI. For whatever reason, those who resist the idea that there is a major HR20 reliability problem out there continue to compare the HR20 launch with the Directivo (at least the SD boxes) launch, and there is no comparison.

There are many, many posts like the one here, that say Tivo boxes on balance never caused the many problems, downloads and headaches that the HR20 has delivered so far. Why is it so hard to admit that from a reliability standpoint, Directivo boxes were far superior and move on? Why is that such a tough pill to swallow?

As for 119 bugs/issues, just check out the 119 "issues" thread for more information (to confirm that there definitively are bugs still hanging around). You may not have any problems, but other people sure seem to be struggling with some of the same issues (spontaneous reboots, blacks screens, etc.) after downloading 119. Not everyone, mind you, but enough to see that 119 is not ready for national release as the "salvation" of the Hr20. We all look forward to that day, but it's not here yet.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I owned one of the original standalone Tivos, and I sold it 6 years later on ebay for $300 (with lifetime license), and it was still working flawlessly. We have owned both the Hughes (from day one) and R10s Directivos, and never had to do a single reboot. The only time we had a missed recording (which happened to be the finale of Sex and the City, so it was important to the females in our house), Directv had messed up the guide (it recorded perfectly on our standaline Philips box).
> 
> While I understand some people might have had problems with the HR10-250 (we don't own one), to say that the HR20 launch is in any way comparable to the Directivo launches just doesn't compute. It's not even close, and I could care less about keeping Tivo nor am I wedded to the Tivo GUI. For whatever reason, those who resist the idea that there is an HR20 reliability problem out there continue to compare the HR20 launch with the Directivo (at least the SD boxes) launch, and there is no comparison.


Are you basing this on your sole personal experience (albeit with multiple tivos)?


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

I am amazed that people experience *no* reboots of their TIVO units over the years. I have had three and they all experienced this from time to time. The R10 was the worst, it would reboot without me ever knowing when. I know it did because my 30 second skip would have to be reprogrammed. Also had Pink screen of death about 3 times. The last time it took 3 hours to recover(at least it did).

SO if they could get the HR20 down to a reboot every 2 months or so I will say, IMO, it is on par with my experience with DirecTivo.


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

My HR20 has been performing just fine.

Not everyone is having problems.

The stuff in the issues thread does not mean every single HR20 owner is having those issues.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Are you basing this on your sole personal experience (albeit with multiple tivos)?


Sure, as are most of the people who have posted a Tivo reliability comparison with the HR20. If someone can deliver a comparison of the number of software downloads for Directivos vs. the HR20, for example, that might be a legitimate comparison of the launches for the first 5-6 months. I'd say most of the people who post one way or the other do so based on their personal experiences, as do any of the reviewers (CNET, HDTV Magazine, tvpredictions.com) who have reviewed the HR20. However, the number of downloads (still coming) have nothing to do with my personal experience, they are fact. And as such, those downloads are the best possible indicator of this launch being much less than what Directv wanted it to be. Of course, they are also indicative of Directv's effort to get the thing working to the point where "bug/issue" threads and posts disappear, but so far, they haven't reached that objective.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

glennb said:


> My HR20 has been performing just fine.
> 
> Not everyone is having problems.
> 
> The stuff in the issues thread does not mean every single HR20 owner is having those issues.


This is exactly like a post that says "the HR20 is a POS" and nothing else. Why do you keep posting the same thing on every thread? I don't believe anyone has said that "every single HR20 owner is having those issues." In fact, it's a silly statement. The issue is how many people are having serious reliability issues vs. how many are not. If the former group is in any way a significant percentage (which seems to be the case based on Directv's download barrage), then your point is a moot point.


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

Tom_S said:


> I am amazed that people experience *no* reboots of their TIVO units over the years. I have had three and they all experienced this from time to time. The R10 was the worst, it would reboot without me ever knowing when. I know it did because my 30 second skip would have to be reprogrammed. Also had Pink screen of death about 3 times. The last time it took 3 hours to recover(at least it did).
> 
> SO if they could get the HR20 down to a reboot every 2 months or so I will say, IMO, it is on par with my experience with DirecTivo.


I have to admit my Tivo has rebooted on its own a couple times, but it was no fault of Tivo or DirecTV, because it might not have been a standard version of the OS that was running when it occurred. 'Nuff said.

Other than that, never had any abnormal reboots. Had a couple slowdowns, but they cleared themselves out after a while (without a reboot).

But again, we need to go all the way back to the first version of the Tivo OS to make an apples to apples comparison. The Tivo OS is so mature at this point, its hard to "think back" to when it was in the same infancy stages as the HR20 code. Like I said, I never even had a box before my HDVR2, and I literally plugged that in, went thru the prompts and was on my way into DVR-land. But even then, the Tivo OS was on version 3.x.......I dont know how that compares to the timeline of the HR20 10b/119 releases, but Im pretty sure it took a while to get to version 3.x of the Tivo OS, at least longer than its taken for the HR20 to get to 10b/119.

-Chris


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## Marty B (Sep 21, 2006)

I can honestly say that I dont ever remember my SAT-T60 (1st Gen DirecTivo) ever locking up, missing a recording for no reason, or sponaniously rebooting. It is rock solid to this day. I use it as the standard when trying to determin why my HR20 did not record something. If I could flip a switch and make my SAT-T60 record HD shows, my HR20 would go into the trash can. Do I hope that the HR20 gets better? Absolutly. Will it ever be as good as a Tivo? I doubt it.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

I've been playing with consumer (and military) boxes for nearly 40 years and I've never had one piece of equipment that worked "perfectly", if it was fairly sophisticated in the first place. This includes costly equipment that makes the HR20 look like "chump change". Nearly all of them had features that didn't work right (and I don't mean user preferences). The vast majority of them could not be upgraded effectively. A few cost several thousand dollars and I was told "don't use it that way" by the same people who played/play a part in NASA's work.

More recent equipment that can be upgraded has fallen into a few categories:

1. Could be upgraded, but never was.

2. Could be upgraded, was upgraded once or twice, never again, not fixed.

3. Could be upgraded, was and continues to be upgraded, get better, but obvious bugs remain.

4. Could be upgraded, was and continues to be upgraded and the majority of bugs are fixed.

My experience tells me that the quest for "perfection" is illusive at best, and naive at worst.

That said, the HR20 sure seems to be a work in progress that falls into category 3, above. As long as they keep working on it, and progress is evident, then I guess you would put me in the group that thinks eventually the majority of bugs will be fixed.

That is all I expect. In the mean time, I'm able to use my HR20 quite effectively and am pleased with the progress. If I couldn't use the basic functions, <including OTA>, I wouldn't feel this way. (and I know there ARE those who are in this situation). I have no quarrel with their dismay.

For me it's very simple: enjoy what I have that works right (because the basic requirements are being met), and be patient with its development.

As long as I see meaningful work being done on a regular basis, I'm fine with the HR20.


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## mjs31 (Sep 22, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Again, my tivos have recorded everything I've asked (to the best of my knowledge) and played back everything and have never froze or locked up. To me, that is perfect.


Well then I guess the HR20 is perfect for me. It has recorded everything I have asked and played back everything I recorded since I got it in Sept


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

tstarn said:


> This is exactly like a post that says "the HR20 is a POS" and nothing else. Why do you keep posting the same thing on every thread? I don't believe anyone has said that "every single HR20 owner is having those issues." In fact, it's a silly statement. The issue is how many people are having serious reliability issues vs. how many are not. If the former group is in any way a significant percentage (which seems to be the case based on Directv's download barrage), then your point is a moot point.


tstarn,

Sorry you didn't like my posting.

The thread title is - _Is anyone else losing confidence that the HR20 will ever be perfect?_ and I was just mentioning that mine has been performing well. I was just trying to post my positive experiences among all the negative ones.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Which was a perfectly reasonable post/reply to the title of the thread. Perhaps the thread should have been titled,

"Is anyone else as unhappy as I am, if not don't reply?"

I thought the original title was fine, as was the response that tripped someone's trigger. Perhaps my reply will evoke similar ire, because I didn't trash the HR20.

Sorry, I don't fit into either of the extremists' camps, (mine works: you're an idiot; mine doesn't and don't you dare say your happy with yours).

Both seem exquisitely silly to me.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mtnagel said:


> Chris, if you read the other Chris' post carefully, he says he got his HDVR2 when it first came out and he had *no* issues. Now, I'm not denying there were issues, just clarifying.
> 
> Any clue how long it took to get the series 2 Directivos stable after they were released?


Well, the HDVR2 was a 2nd generation DirecTivo so hopefully they would have gotten it right by then. 

My first Tivo was a stand alone Sony SVR-2000 (?) back in 2000. Was one of the first models with 30 hours and cost $400. It would reboot once in a while and lock up. Recordings missed. Hard drive died within a year (Sony actually replaced it under warranty).

That actually gave me an excuse to get the first Sony DirecTivo that was available. Did *not* have dual tuners or buffers. Had only one tuner activated. Tivo Community was up in arms for months to get the 2nd "promised" tuner activated (sound familiar). I had some bugs after the 2nd tuner was activated (missed some recordings and lockups switching between tuners) but that was fixed after a couple updates.

Was real excited when the Season Pass manager was added in software version 2.0. 
Yes, that's right, the original Tivo versions did *not* have a season pass manager. Wishlists were also not a feature until later versions.
I remember some lock ups and crashes with 2.0. 
Some nice "green screens of death" as they were called.
Fixed with later versions. 
And of course it was weeks/months between new versions and there was MUCH crying and gnashing of teeth on the Tivo forum.
The first couple/three years of Tivo software was basically just a step above a VCR with the ability to record a series. And it was cool as h*ll.
Took a while for the first run/repeat stuff to get it right. Took a lot of guide data massaging to get that done. "28 day rule" added to help.

Eventually got an HDVR2 (2nd generation) and R10 (3rd generation I'd say) and have had rare problems with either. Both have crashed a couple times but nothing major and have been pretty solid. 
The past 4 years or so of Tivo software has been quite stable, rarely missing recordings and such.
But the 1st generation boxes as decribed above weren't nearly as "stable".
In my experience and remembering the Tivo boards it took Tivo about 3 years to get to a point of being totally "stable" and feature rich. 
I think version 2.5 of the software is where I would declare it as thus.

Now I have an HR20 since early September. It has been very stable for me. Have had 3 lockups total (two under 10b). 
Never missed a recording.
Only had 2 partial problems way early back in October.
No problems with trick plays or random reboots, even with 115.
Probably I'm not doing the things some others are to cause the bugs to appear perhaps (no autorecord searches, only use 1x-3x and replay for trick play).
119 is still very solid as well, although I am seeing the OTA dropout issue. Annoying but it actually just reminds me what pure OTA used to be only 2 years ago for me. 

So in comparison to when Tivo first came out, the HR20 is just as stable (if not more) with a lot more features (which it should being a DVR in today's world).

Now I've never been one to deny there are people with problems with the HR20. And I hope that I never become one of them and I root for DirecTV to continue to knock out the bugs.
But I also have perspective that Tivo by no means was perfect in it's first few versions and still today there are people that have issues and troubles with various Tivo units. 
As is the same with any consumer device. 
I can find people claiming any consumer device is a piece of crap despite it being "stable" and bug free overall.
Again, this in no way makes it "right" for there to be bugs. 
And maybe the HR20 has more then it's fair share. 
But it is by no means unique.

So far I am not losing confidence in the HR20 but I also don't believe it will be perfect. Nothing is.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

glennb said:


> tstarn,
> 
> Sorry you didn't like my posting.
> 
> The thread title is - _Is anyone else losing confidence that the HR20 will ever be perfect?_ and I was just mentioning that mine has been performing well.


You have mentioned it dozens of times already in threads throughout this forum, and that's really good for you. But your comment about the issues thread situation wasn't meant to be a matter of fact statement.

That your HR20 is working to perfection (or in that ballpark) doesn't really answer the question of the OP? Or am I missing something? Is your POV that you believe it is perfect right now? Is going to be perfect? That would have been on point based on the OP's title for this. As I said, your post is exactly the same as saying "The HR20 is a POS." I thought people had moved beyond that point, but I guess not.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hasan said:


> Which was a perfectly reasonable post/reply to the title of the thread. Perhaps the thread should have been titled,
> 
> "Is anyone else as unhappy as I am, if not don't reply?"
> 
> ...


As always, you seem to have a lock on being above the fray, Hasan. Not sure if you put me in an extremist camp, because that isn't the case. You have been willing all along, and I know this is based on your positive experience so far, to give Directv a pass on the HR20 launch for all the reasons you have stated in many posts. I accept that POV, but I don't have to share it.

No trigger tripping here, just tired of that same old response, just as I would have been tired of someone replying "the HR20 is a piece of crap." And it was the second line, the one about not everyone having the issues being reported in the bug threads, that was really not part of the OP's intent. No one has ever said that, and no one will. To those whose HR20s have worked nearly to perfection, more power to them. But that's not what this entire debate has been about, as you know because you are a smart guy. You just like to point out how silly people are for being upset that their HR20s have worked very poorly despite all the "fixes" so far. I get it, you're cool, above it all. You won't get any debate on that point.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

To answer the original question:
"Is anyone else losing confidence that the HR20 will ever be perfect"...

Well... I guess my answer is... I can't lose something, I never had.

I never have expected any of my DVR's to be "perfect". 
....

Now, am I losing confidence that the HR20 will be come a reliable, trusted DVR... not at all... Why? I have two at home that fit that bill right now.

I am not using my HR20s any differently then I did with my HR10.
And they perform just as good, as it did. And it some areas, improved on how I used the DVR.

And the fact that me, glennb, and others... HAVE HR20's that are not failing... well that does mean it has a chance to be like that for everone.

It is "proof" the the unit is able to perform the way you are expecting it to.
I am very confident that it is simply a case of gremlins in the code, that just need to be found and fixed.

And we will see consistant stability accross the entire line of HR20.
And we can get to a point, that we can start to say it is possible hardware issues "first", and software issues "second".


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

We all have a choice as to what we choose to get irritated about. The posting was harmless and germane, not provocative. You're a "smart guy" too, and as such ignoring minor "faults" is part of being "smart", hence my "trigger tripping" comment.

How we respond to others, especially those with whom we disagree, says a lot more about us than it does about them.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> My first Tivo was a stand alone Sony SVR-2000 (?) back in 2000...


Thank you for the history and putting some perspective on this. It was very helpful. Maybe v2.0 of the HR20 will be rock solid for everyone


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## DaHound (Nov 20, 2006)

mjs31 said:


> Well then I guess the HR20 is perfect for me. It has recorded everything I have asked and played back everything I recorded since I got it in Sept


You need to send your box back to D* and have them clone it for the rest of us!:lol:


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I guess it's been a while since I weighed in on a post like this. When they got truly nasty I bit my tongue, as hard as it was. Apologies to long-time readers who've seen me write stuff like this before. 

Tom, first of all welcome back. Your voice here was missed. 

I am firmly in agreement with hasan, that the important point here is continued development. I have paid similar amounts for other things and never seen feature updates. I have tossed two DVD players, each costing at least $299, because they didn't play every DVD. I've suffered through several cell phones which didn't perform as promised, or were deliberately crippled by the OEM so that features I wanted weren't available. I've swapped out receivers that never properly decoded Dolby Pro Logic over satellite channels. 

None of these products had an active development team, or a supportive user base. The only thing that comes close these days (that I own) is the Logitech Harmony 880, and their development people have done "one step forward, two steps back" more than once. 

Before the Tivo crowd rises up again, remember that DirecTivos have severely crippled functionality compared to standalone ones. The thread to petition for HMO is still over at tivocommunity.com. The DirecTivos are so crippled compared to their standalone counterparts that a whole cottage industry has risen up to hack them. Let's also not forget all the problems that the recent "someone in your family deleted..." bug has caused DirecTivos. I lost so many programs in December that I've come to think of the HR20 as "old reliable". 

Matt, I'm going to answer your question, as I see it. I am not losing patience. Sometimes it's strained but it's not gone. I think that the HR20 will get to a point where it fails infrequently enough that tech support calls are manageable. Given the tight time frames and low target costs for new products, nothing is ever developed to the point where it is perfect. It is getting better in general and they're still working on it. I can't say that about much else that I own. 

In my father's day, you saved for years, and you bought something that was engineered to last your whole life. It cost you several months' salary, and chances are if you find one in an antique store it still works. 

Today, everyone expects everything to be cheap - a couple of days' pay, maybe a week's pay. It's to the point where you don't want things to last past two to three years because by then you'll be wanting the next new thing anyway. A lot of manufacturers would have just cut their losses by now and said, "well, we've got to put that development money toward the HR30". 

DirecTV wants to get this one right. Their behavior tells me they want that as much as we do.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I never have expected any of my DVR's to be "perfect".


Others have said it here too; that it will never be perfect. So is perfection (with respect to recording and playing back) really too much to ask?

I guess I'm wrong, but I didn't think so.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hasan said:


> We all have a choice as to what we choose to get irritated about. The posting was harmless and germane, not provocative. You're a "smart guy" too, and as such ignoring minor "faults" is part of being "smart", hence my "trigger tripping" comment.
> 
> How we respond to others, especially those with whom we disagree, says a lot more about us than it does about them.


Did you watch a lot of King Fu as a kid? I get your point, but I still don't agree that it was meant to be harmless, and it was far from germane. A germane post would have been more along the lines of Earl's, which detailed why he has confidence that the HR20 will some day be as near to perfect as possible. As I said, mine works probably as well as yours or Earl's (at least right now it is). So that's not my main issue.

To me, the issue has always been that the flaky HR20 was released on an unsuspecting sub base, people who expected to receive something akin to their previous DVR experiences, in much less than prime time condition. That was bad enough, but it was Directv's straight-faced public comments that the HR20 was their most successful launch ever, and that the vast majority of subs were enjoying their new toy, that really irritates me. I know, it doesn't irritate you because there is nothing you can do about it.

But I didn't like it then and still don't.

As to the OP's title question, my confidence was greatly diminished the first time my HR20 delivered the BSOD and it took a month to get rid of that particular bug. Now, there are more, different bugs, so my confidence continues to be low that they will get the HR20 "perfect" for 99.9 percent of their subs in the near future. As I have said, I really do want to be wrong on this one for obvious reasons. But even if that happens, and I have to eat crow, I can still dislike the way Directv treated its subscribers (especially the ones who never heard of DBSTalk.com and who paid $299 or more for their HR20s) during this 5-month launch.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mtnagel said:


> Others have said it here too; that it will never be perfect. So is perfection (with respect to recording and playing back) really too much to ask?
> 
> I guess I'm wrong, but I didn't think so.


Actually... depends on your definition of "perfect"
I personally do feel it is too much to ask.

While I "expect" perfection... I have a realization that I will never get it.
The DTiVo's that I have had... I can't classify as perfection... as yes... in the 5+ years (and the dozen or so), that I have owned... not one of them was 100% perfect...

Do I expect my HR20's to record everything I have told it to.... yes
Do I expect to be able to play back everything I have told it to... yes
But, I have learned from experience... that there is still that chance it might not.

My DSR704 was recording Smallviles... I had Season 3, first 5 episodes recorded... then... hard drive failure... lost the season... and I have never got back into Smallville.... Even though it was the drive that failed, it was still not perfection. Again with the HR10... It was totall locked when I came to watch 24 one night... it didn't even record it, nor the three other shows over the weekend. Reset fixed it, but... not perfect... hence why still to this day... I record my critical shows on a second system. (learning from our Smallville experience).

It is rare that I have to watch it on that 2nd system... but I know it is there... why... as I don't expect perfection. I want it... but I know right now... that HR20 is still just a computer... and computers are just simply not perfect.. they are good... but they are not perfect.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually... depends on your definition of "perfect"
> I personally do feel it is too much to ask.
> 
> While I "expect" perfection... I have a realization that I will never get it.
> ...


I would never blame a hard drive failure on the HR20 though. It's not its fault that the hard drive failed. I had a hard drive fail on my HDVR2 and obviously missed recordings and lost everything on the drive (thankfully it was just the kid's at the time), but I still consider that HDRV2 to be perfect. As far as I can tell, it's never missed a recording, always played back everything, and never locked up or needed rebooting. You might say that it's not perfect because of the hard drive crash, but to me that is perfection. I guess I was spoiled by my perfect tivos. If only they crashed every once and awhile, maybe I wouldn't be so hard on the HR20


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> hence why still to this day... I record my critical shows on a second system. (learning from our Smallville experience).
> 
> It is rare that I have to watch it on that 2nd system... but I know it is there... why... as I don't expect perfection. I want it... but I know right now... that HR20 is still just a computer... and computers are just simply not perfect.. they are good... but they are not perfect.


Same here. When my R10 locked up on a Friday afternoon last year (which I didn't find out about until Saturday evening) and we missed both Stargates and BSG that week and I had to troll around Bittorent to find them, I started making backup records on another DVR just in case. Forgot about that one in my post above.

The lessons you learn.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mtnagel said:


> Thank you for the history and putting some perspective on this. It was very helpful. Maybe v2.0 of the HR20 will be rock solid for everyone


No problem. I've never had a "perfect" DVR that never missed a recording or never locked up between the more then half dozen I have owned over the past 7 years.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mtnagel said:


> I would never blame a hard drive failure on the HR20 though. It's not its fault that the hard drive failed. I had a hard drive fail on my HDVR2 and obviously missed recordings and lost everything on the drive (thankfully it was just the kid's at the time), but I still consider that HDRV2 to be perfect. As far as I can tell, it's never missed a recording, always played back everything, and never locked up or needed rebooting. You might say that it's not perfect because of the hard drive crash, but to me that is perfection. I guess I was spoiled by my perfect tivos. If only they crashed every once and awhile, maybe I wouldn't be so hard on the HR20


Your right... I am not "blaming" the hard drive crash, on the unit itself...
But it does add to my "expectations" on perfection out of the DVR technology.

I learned after that "crash" regardless of who the blame was... that DVR Technology, is simply not perfect... and won't be perfect until all the pieces of the puzzle are perfect...

But again to my original point.

No, I guess I haven't lost confidence...
As I see it ever night when I sit and watch my recordings... as i have done for 5 months now. I know the HR20 can do it... thus I think they just need to find out "why" it doesnt' do it accross the board...


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> I guess it's been a while since I weighed in on a post like this. When they got truly nasty I bit my tongue, as hard as it was. Apologies to long-time readers who've seen me write stuff like this before.
> 
> Tom, first of all welcome back. Your voice here was missed.
> 
> ...


Nice response. I guess I do have a tendency to snap at people who merely get into the "mine works" mentality, and have more sympathy for those who deliver the POS comments (after all, why does anyone whose HR20 works close to perfection need any sympathy? Right?). But even those latter posts have seemed to diminish as of late. Let's hope it's because their HR20s are working better.

Anyway, my experiences with gear/gadgets has been fairly positive over the years (that is, except for when they dumped Windows Millennium on new Dell PCs). And then there was the time I literally spent 8 hours on with tech support as I tried to install the exciting new multimedia kit (CD-R, sound card) onto my Gateway PC. Ah, the good old days.

But in the more modern world, the HR20 has been an anomaly based on my experiences. When my Creative Zen Vision M's HD failed, I sent it back and they sent me a new on. Easy enough. And we have had issues with DSL service, to be sure. But hardware, for the most part, has been solid. So getting the HR20 in its original state (at least the one I got), which was launched a critical part of the Directv experience, was a jolt when it worked so poorly right out of the box (and shipping it back seemed a premature move).

Not that I have Earl's contacts, but I do have some information that Directv execs are very unhappy about the current situation, and are committed to doing whatever it takes to rectify it. That's good. The critical question is, and it's been posted before, do they have the expertise to make that happen? That's where the confidence issue is for me. It's all been so messy, and the more I read the 119 issues thread, the more it makes me wonder if Directv can get it done. I mean, just take a look at all the threads and posts on the HR20 Q&A section of this forum. It's enough to make your head spin, no?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I just think we are getting pretty close on the software and that soon D* is going to have to start swaping the boxes with problems..


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## upnorth (Jun 21, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Again, my tivos have recorded everything I've asked (to the best of my knowledge) and played back everything and have never froze or locked up. To me, that is perfect.


As has my HR20 will I call it perfect no and it probably never will be perfect because one day It may freeze up and I will have to do RBR or I may have to reformat.
As I say I have had no issues with mine I feel for those that have issues and I have confidence that it will become a solid and stable unit for all.


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## deebeeeff (Oct 10, 2006)

I have had pretty good luck with my HR20, and I still believe that it will eventually be at least as dependable as my TIVO products, but....

after 119, which appears to have caused more problems than it solved, I really have some doubts that D*'s current crop of programmers and/or management have what it takes to get the job done. :nono2: (No way to know if the programmers are bad or if management is pushing them to produce results too fast, or if it is a combo of both.)

Anyway, I haven't lost complete faith, and a really good download will prolly put me back in the other column.:lol: :hurah:


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

upnorth said:


> As has my HR20 will I call it perfect no and it probably never will be perfect because one day It may freeze up and I will have to do RBR or I may have to reformat.
> As I say I have had no issues with mine I feel for those that have issues and I have confidence that it will become a solid and stable unit for all.


Will you say that your's _has_ been perfect? Obviously no one can predict what will happen in the future. I can't say that my Directivos will always be perfect either.

I just wish I could say that my HR20 has been perfect since x software release or has been perfect for x days.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

tstarn said:


> The critical question is, and it's been posted before, do they have the expertise to make that happen? That's where the confidence issue is for me. It's all been so messy, and the more I read the 119 issues thread, the more it makes me wonder if Directv can get it done.


I'm thinking that no one ever starts out with the expertise they need to tackle any problem. They get the expertise by tackling problems.

Broadcom tends to make good hardware, and their chips are the heart of the HR20. If we assume that it's software in the majority of the cases, then your question is very valid. Hopefully the basic code is stable, then they need to bring in additional developers. If DirecTV is committed to doing what it takes, then maybe they're thinking the same thing.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

upnorth said:


> As has my HR20 will I call it perfect no and it probably never will be perfect because one day It may freeze up and I will have to do RBR or I may have to reformat.
> As I say I have had no issues with mine I feel for those that have issues and I have confidence that it will become a solid and stable unit for all.


Very good response, and very fair from someone whose HR20 is working as advertised. Not that you needed my approval, but thanks.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Will you say that your's _has_ been perfect? Obviously no one can predict what will happen in the future. I can't say that my Directivos will always be perfect either.
> 
> I just wish I could say that my HR20 has been perfect since x software release or has been perfect for x days.


I wonder if it would drive the point home more if we were to compare the hr20's performance to other DVRs that we consider "works as advertised" rather than get caught up in the whole "perfection" debate.

I have an HDVR2 as well. My hard drive failed. Other than that the box does everything I want it to do, and it does it well and efficiently. The HR20 does not always live up to this performance level - (though it is much better with 0x119). So whether its perfect is irrelevent.

More important: _Does it live up to your expectations based on past products?_


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

My guess is that between the attention they are getting from us, the recent Tivobox glitch that caused a big ruckus, and the demand growth, D*TV's HR20 is getting plenty of attention and focus for resolving any remaining items. Will it every be perfect? - that'll depend on who you ask and what you do with it.

What I do know is that they are *aware* of the *high profile *satisfaction need for this DVR to the general marketplace. It's a main component for a number of things later this year as well as their overal HD future plans.


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## chicago_cws (Dec 10, 2006)

My performance has been great so far. I have had mine for about a month, I do not record a ton of things but maybe 15 programs a week. Have not missed one yet.

My HR10-250 was nearly perfect as well, right up to 6.3A. 6.3A is the reason why I upgraded to the HR20, not that I didn't believe it would never get repaired, just that if I was going to be waiting for the next software to fix my problems, why not do it with the HR20. 

So, both have been great for me. 


By the way, regarding "DVR Perfection", here is a snapshot of the most recent posts over on the HR10-250 forum. This should prove that perfection is a lofty goal in this arena.

I have 6.3a on a HR10-250. what should I do?
DIRECTV: Trouble With TiVo DVR Resolved
HR10-250 and letterbox problems
OTA Reception Worthless!
HR10-250 stops recording NFL games before scheduled end. Need new box? Please help!
Season Pass problems related to R15/HR20 Software update
timeline too long on HDNET
Asking price for HR10-250?
Can't Enter Channel No in Channel List
Just got a HR10-250, now time to do the HD thing!
Anything Definitive with Tivo Bug?
Can I use the Tivo Series 3 remote?
Call, Pending Restart, Restart, Still at 6.3a??!!
R10 recording HD programming in SD?
Directv DVR w/Tivo & DVD Burner?
HD 10-250 and searching for satellite 2
30 second skip keeps getting disabled
Local on Tivio D10-250
having problems with my hr-10-250
HR10-250 Freezing Problem with 6.3a?
R10 Lip Sync with Plasma
Philips DSR704 Reset
Remote for R10 and questions
Harmony 680 with R10 Anomaly
R10 problems
Should I return the HR20-700?
DTivo hack?
HR10-250 Reboot Issue (Multi-page thread 1 2)


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Marty B said:


> I can honestly say that I dont ever remember my SAT-T60 (1st Gen DirecTivo) ever locking up, missing a recording for no reason, or sponaniously rebooting. It is rock solid to this day. I use it as the standard when trying to determin why my HR20 did not record something. If I could flip a switch and make my SAT-T60 record HD shows, my HR20 would go into the trash can. Do I hope that the HR20 gets better? Absolutly. Will it ever be as good as a Tivo? I doubt it.


I had a few lockups on my T60, maybe 3 or 4 in the 3 years I had the box. I had to unplug it for a couple of minutes and then restart it. It happens to the most robust corporate servers. Anyway, I am sure the HR20 will get to that point and we'll be here going "Remember all the problems we used to have with that box?" Again, my issue is not that it won't get fixed (which I believe it will), but that we had to pay a premium for unreliable equipment. Did anyone do a poll on the forum asking who has had problems and who hasn't? The perception is that MOST are having major issues, but maybe that is wrong. Maybe MOST people have absolutely NO issues...


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

hasan said:


> For me it's very simple: enjoy what I have that works right (because the basic requirements are being met), and be patient with its development.
> 
> As long as I see meaningful work being done on a regular basis, I'm fine with the HR20.


Wel this is where I disagree, at least for those of us with major issues. If the basic requirements were met then:

1) We'd be able to watch live TV flawlessly (still OTA issues remain, and there are some DD sound issues as well)
2) We'd be able to record shows flawlessly (missed recordings, RBRs obviously cause aborted recordings, padding issue remains)
3) Be able to watch recorded shows (Keep or delete bug, FF/RW bug causing reboots)

These are what I would call major bugs that affect the basic requirements of a DVR. Those are the bugs that need to be rectified before we can say the basic requirements are met. It would be like saying a cars basic requirements are met, even though the breaks only work 80% of the time.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> I had a few lockups on my T60, maybe 3 or 4 in the 3 years I had the box. I had to unplug it for a couple of minutes and then restart it. It happens to the most robust corporate servers. Anyway, I am sure the HR20 will get to that point and we'll be here going "Remember all the problems we used to have with that box?" Again, my issue is not that it won't get fixed (which I believe it will), but that we had to pay a premium for unreliable equipment. Did anyone do a poll on the forum asking who has had problems and who hasn't? The perception is that MOST are having major issues, but maybe that is wrong. Maybe MOST people have absolutely NO issues...


You are asking ab out one of the great mysteries of life (at least the HR20's life). Doing a poll on problems vs. no problems on DBSTalk.com doesn't really get to any truth or confirm perception vs. reality, it's just a self-selected sample of people who happen to respond. One day, it could be more people who haven't had ongoing issues, the next day the other half could read it and vote. It's very unscientific at best.

No, the real issue is how many households in the entire HR20 Directv subscriber universe are having reliability problems (or have had 2-3 HR20s already as replacements, etc.)? The fact that Directv has already tried to fix the box 9 times (with nationwide downloads) is not perception, it's reality. It shows they want to fix it, sure. But it also shows they are concerned enough about the numbers of troubled boxes that making the effort is worthwhile. If <1 percent of subs were reporting no problems (i.e., perfection using the OP's original title), for example, that download list would be much, much shorter. Logic dictates that to be the case.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> I don't want to turn this into an HR20 vs Tivo argument, but that's my baseline as that's what I've had for 3 years prior to getting the HR20.


I'm just going to weigh in on this with a short statement that I believe to be true. It is based solely on what I have observed here.

I believe that the next release after 0x119 or perhaps the one after that will become the new Gold Standard for the HR20. Up to this point, I firmly believe that the TiVo has been the Gold Standard that the HR20 is trying to achieve.

So, in response to the question, I am gaining confidence that the HR20 will be "perfect" in the sense that it will function reliably and not have the little software quirks that we currently have. I've been using my two HR20s as my primary viewing devices since Sept 27, 2006. The only times that I had what I would call Show Stopper problems was the FF/REW bug which lasted exactly 1 week and the easy-to-cause spontaneous reboots (0x115). The latter problem was resolved by down-revving since the firmware was never released nationally.

I've seen gradual improvements in every release (with some occasional setbacks). I see every reason for that trend to continue.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> we had to pay a premium for unreliable equipment.


This is where we disagree. In fact, $299 is a reasonable price point in my opinion. It is a premium over the $0.01 lease price of the R15 right now, granted. I can't imagine what it would cost if it were built and tested to military specs.

$699 for the S3 Tivo that doesn't work a whole lot better than the HR20, that didn't entice me at all.
$999 for the first HDTivo, which is now becoming obsolete 2 years later, was far against my better judgment. 
$1500 for a Blu-Ray player with real, repeatable issues and feature deficits, that's a real stretch.

$299 and a 2-year commitment to something you were probably going to commit to anyway, that's not a premium.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> Wel this is where I disagree, at least for those of us with major issues. If the basic requirements were met then:
> 
> 1) We'd be able to watch live TV flawlessly (still OTA issues remain, and there are some DD sound issues as well)
> 2) We'd be able to record shows flawlessly (missed recordings, RBRs obviously cause aborted recordings, padding issue remains)
> ...


Agree entirely. I'm not seeing (1), but (2) and (3) are issues for me. The IKD bug and problems with padding shows are problems with the core functions of a DVR. I've used Tivo, ReplayTV, and UltimateTV and simply haven't had problems with any of them to the extent I have with the HR20...and I was an early adopter of the other platforms.

I expect my DVR to record and playback what I tell it to with 99%+ reliability. I have had that level of reliability with other platforms. I'm not getting it with my HR20 (and envy those of you that are!).

I am glad that D* is obviously putting resources into fixing the problems, and I have seen improvement. That's heartening. However, the box in its current state is unacceptable to me as a main DVR. I want to believe that the HR20 will become rock solid, but it's more probably more hope than confidence. Given that I am using the HR10 as my main DVR and don't need MPEG4 for my locals, I've got some time to be relatively patient.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> This is where we disagree. In fact, $299 is a reasonable price point in my opinion. It is a premium over the $0.01 lease price of the R15 right now, granted. I can't imagine what it would cost if it were built and tested to military specs.
> 
> $699 for the S3 Tivo that doesn't work a whole lot better than the HR20, that didn't entice me at all.
> $999 for the first HDTivo, which is now becoming obsolete 2 years later, was far against my better judgment.
> ...


Yes, I agree. Considering what I paid for my previous DVRs as an early adopter, I don't consider $299 to be a "premium."


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## Bajanjack (Oct 22, 2006)

(op is Tstarn)
Not that I have Earl's contacts, but I do have some information that Directv execs are very unhappy about the current situation, and are committed to doing whatever it takes to rectify it. That's good. The critical question is, and it's been posted before, do they have the expertise to make that happen? That's where the confidence issue is for me. It's all been so messy, and the more I read the 119 issues thread, the more it makes me wonder if Directv can get it done. I mean, just take a look at all the threads and posts on the HR20 Q&A section of this forum. It's enough to make your head spin, no?[/QUOTE]

Very useful & interesting posts here. It's obvious a number of people are having real problems. I've had a few, but for the most part enjoy the use of my two HR20s. My intention is not to trivialize those who are having problems ( I lost the last 7 minutes of the Giants game two weeks ago due to padding issues), but when you talk about "heads spinning"....aren't there thousands of HR20 users out there?....If that is the case how do we know these problems are widespread? ....


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Bajanjack said:


> (op is Tstarn)
> Not that I have Earl's contacts, but I do have some information that Directv execs are very unhappy about the current situation, and are committed to doing whatever it takes to rectify it. That's good. The critical question is, and it's been posted before, do they have the expertise to make that happen? That's where the confidence issue is for me. It's all been so messy, and the more I read the 119 issues thread, the more it makes me wonder if Directv can get it done. I mean, just take a look at all the threads and posts on the HR20 Q&A section of this forum. It's enough to make your head spin, no?


Very useful & interesting posts here. It's obvious a number of people are having real problems. I've had a few, but for the most part enjoy the use of my two HR20s. My intention is not to trivialize those who are having problems ( I lost the last 7 minutes of the Giants game two weeks ago due to padding issues), but when you talk about "heads spinning"....aren't there thousands of HR20 users out there?....If that is the case how do we know these problems are widespread? ....[/QUOTE]

We don't, but I'll repost this graph from an earlier post.

The real issue is how many households in the entire HR20 Directv subscriber universe are having reliability problems (or have had 2-3 HR20s already as replacements, etc.)? The fact that Directv has already tried to fix the box 9 times (with nationwide downloads) is not perception, it's reality. It shows they want to fix it, sure. But it also shows they are concerned enough about the numbers of troubled boxes that making the effort is worthwhile. If <1 percent of subs were reporting no problems (i.e., perfection using the OP's original title), for example, that download list would be much, much shorter. Logic dictates that to be the case. If you use the "fixes" so far as a gauge, then the problem has to be widespread, or at least not an insignificant one.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

tstarn said:


> The fact that Directv has already tried to fix the box 9 times (with nationwide downloads) is not perception, it's reality. It shows they want to fix it, sure. But it also shows they are concerned enough about the numbers of troubled boxes that making the effort is worthwhile.


Yes, but there have been new features added as well. I'm not debating whether or not new features should be added vs. reliability fixes, but the 9 "fixes" did include new functionality as well. I agree that the frequency of the fixes indicates that there are problems and that DirecTV wants to solve this problem.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

brott said:


> Yes, but there have been new features added as well. I'm not debating whether or not new features should be added vs. reliability fixes, but the 9 "fixes" did include new functionality as well. I agree that the frequency of the fixes indicates that there are problems and that DirecTV wants to solve this problem.


Agree, there were some features added (and I noted that in my HDTVMagazine.com article), which would have meant some downloads no matter what, just not sure how many. Nine seems excessive, and a few of the downloads, the early ones, added no new features.

We both agree, only time will tell. But how much time is the key issue for those having recurring reliability problems, now that the new season is upon us.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

mtnagel said:


> I would never blame a hard drive failure on the HR20 though. It's not its fault that the hard drive failed. I had a hard drive fail on my HDVR2 and obviously missed recordings and lost everything on the drive (thankfully it was just the kid's at the time), but I still consider that HDRV2 to be perfect. As far as I can tell, it's never missed a recording, always played back everything, and never locked up or needed rebooting. You might say that it's not perfect because of the hard drive crash, but to me that is perfection. I guess I was spoiled by my perfect tivos. If only they crashed every once and awhile, maybe I wouldn't be so hard on the HR20


Nice how you missed the whole portion of Earl saying his R10 missed recordings and needed to be rebooted. 

Is my HR20 perfect? Well in the true definiton of perfect not it's not nor will it ever be.

Now I have only had mine a short time but it has yet to miss a show, I have been able to watch everything I have recorded and it's not locked up.

As for issues, well it has gotten mighty slow a couple of times for no reason that I can really see but has always come back.

So far I have no doubts it will record everything I ask, and above and beyond that unlike my R15 I have no doubts it will only record what I ask it to.

Do I expect perfection? No. I know better then that
Do I expect near perfection? Yes I do and like many I don't think it's too much to ask.
Do I have confidence the HR20 will get to near perfection? Yes I do, they have busted their butts to fix it so far and I see no reason that would change.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

I usually keep my posts to only a line or two but I have to add my two cents to this. I have a ton of TiVos (see my sig) and an HR20. Up until the season pass isues on my TiVos, I'd say they were pretty solid (not perfect. Perfect to me is overcoming rain fade during a category 5 hurricane. ). My HR20 was purchased (leased) knowing there would be issues at the beginning. I'm in IT, been working in IT for almost ten years, and have never come across any piece of equipment which runs some type of firmware or software that never needed some kind of upgrade or tweak to it. Some people have said here that they have had TiVos since day one and experienced issues when they first came out. This box is no different.

If it were possible to get a list of software versions and list the fixes the DIRECTV Series 1 and 2 TiVos have gone through (like we have for the HR20), would it help de-myth the notion that TiVos have always been the way they are today? IMHO, I think it would.

I am still hopeful about the HR20 and still plan to replace my three HR10-250s as soon as I can.

(Hope I wasn't rambling here, in my head I think I got across what I was trying to say)


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## raw6464 (Dec 11, 2006)

What concerns me is 2 fold:

1. The inconsistency of the performance reliability across HR20s. Some folks have not had any problems while some have had enough to try anybodies patience.

2. With each software upgrade it seems a new bug pops up adding to the confusion.

I'm sure the software writers are working their a$$e$ of trying to fix this box and I wouldn't take the Director of Software job for all the tea in China. He must be losing a lot of sleep and under a ton or pressure. If I was the CEO I would in his office 24/7.

But all this "beta testing" and ensuing never ending problems gives this effort the appearance of a ship without a rudder. That is not a criticism, it's a perception projected by the expectation of a fix, not being met. At what point do you say, “What we’re doing is not working”?

It is evident at least from a customer’s point of view, D* itself does not why for what ever reason some boxes work and some don’t. If anybody from D* can prove me wrong I’d be glad to have crow for dinner. 

D*, you need to get into the boxes that are failing and draw out the root causes… that is doable. I’m sure you could get enough candidates right off this forum.

It is inconceivable to me that a company as big as D* would understand they have the whole HDTV worldwide community looking over their shoulder and come up with a better once and for all way to find out why their flag ship box doesn’t work. With every failed update the road to ridicule and incompetence get closer and closer. 

Personally I do want D* to fix this box and be successful as a 10 year customer, but I am disappointed in their approach which may be just a perception… but as some say perception is reality. I won’t leave D* because of this… they have ALWAYS accommodated me when I asked them too… so I’m asking again… D*, FIX THIS BOX.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

raw6464 said:


> What concerns me is 2 fold:
> 
> 1. The inconsistency of the performance reliability across HR20s. Some folks have not had any problems while some have had enough to try anybodies patience.
> 
> ...


Another post that gets at the heart of the matter. The longer the download "fix" cycle without unqualified success goes on, the more Directv will look like they have no idea what they are doing, even if some of the downloads add a feature or two.

I'll be joining you for that crow dinner, in fact, I'd pick up the tab if Directv could get this mess cleaned up soon. Tonight? Not that I can see from the 119 issue thread. But soon.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Perfect? nope. never expected perfect.

But, rock solid that I can depend on it when I go on vacation? I must admit, my confidence has wavered as I recalled the R15 similarities, the new people having problems who didn't before, etc. Then I met some key people and, while I know they have been having major problems recreating the user's experience in the lab, they are working very hard, they are very dedicated, and so I know they will get it. 

Add to this that I found out the R15 was another outsourced DVR, so the HR20 is D*s first all D* DVR. They are learning quickly.

Cheers,
Tom


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> Now I have only had mine a short time but it has yet to miss a show, I have been able to watch everything I have recorded and it's not locked up.
> 
> As for issues, well it has gotten mighty slow a couple of times for no reason that I can really see but has always come back.
> 
> So far I have no doubts it will record everything I ask, and above and beyond that unlike my R15 I have no doubts it will only record what I ask it to.


If that were my experience, I'd be reasonably happy with the unit (though I'd still miss dual buffers and real wshlists) . However, it is not. Fix the IKD bug and allow padding to work properly, and I could live with the rest of the issues.

If the R15 were my previous unit, I guess I might be happier


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tibber said:


> Then I met some key people and, while I know they have been having major problems recreating the user's experience in the lab, they are working very hard, they are very dedicated, and so I know they will get it.


My guess is you saw & learned more in hours of direct contact (no pun intended) at the CES than a thousand posts of speculation, criticism, and issues here.

The 3 biggest misconceptions about the HR20:

1) Most people are having problems - not so
2) D*TV doesn't care about the HR20 or its customers
3) D*TV doesn't have or want to commit the resources to address any remaining issues or future enhancements - not so

We can all debate these points til the cows come home, but these are the facts, and it would seem to be far more productive to debate new features needed, new feature priorities, or start a pool on the next national firmware update.

Keep your chin up.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

tfederov said:


> I usually keep my posts to only a line or two but I have to add my two cents to this. I have a ton of TiVos (see my sig) and an HR20. Up until the season pass isues on my TiVos, I'd say they were pretty solid (not perfect. Perfect to me is overcoming rain fade during a category 5 hurricane. ). My HR20 was purchased (leased) knowing there would be issues at the beginning. I'm in IT, been working in IT for almost ten years, and have never come across any piece of equipment which runs some type of firmware or software that never needed some kind of upgrade or tweak to it. Some people have said here that they have had TiVos since day one and experienced issues when they first came out. This box is no different.
> 
> If it were possible to get a list of software versions and list the fixes the DIRECTV Series 1 and 2 TiVos have gone through (like we have for the HR20), would it help de-myth the notion that TiVos have always been the way they are today? IMHO, I think it would.
> 
> ...


I'm in IT as well, and you HIT upon the key word there, TWEAK. These are not tweaks, these are full blown fixes for reliability problems. A tweak is to get the guide to work faster (which they have done). A fix is to get the bleeping thing to NOT crash. Imagine if you will, you are at work on your PC and you are in the middle of an important technical document (as you are in IT, I would imagine you've had to write these from time to time), and then you got the BSOD. THIS is equivalent to the BSOD. While all my recordings have gone off as expected, having a crash while watching something, could cause me to lose whatever I'm recording on the other tuner (if not all of it, then part of it). As I've said before, most of us are "spoiled" by our TiVos and got our first TiVo AFTER the intial bugs were worked out, so to us, the TiVo was reliable. I'm hoping that the HR20 gets to that point eventually, and soon. Luckily, I still have my old D*Tivo on my old SD TV, so while the issues are being worked on, I have a backup.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

tibber said:


> the HR20 is D*s first all D* DVR. They are learning quickly.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


...and that's my point, again. Getting it right out of the box would have been nice, but that ship has sailed. It's clear to me by their actions as well as words that the folks over at DirecTV are serious about getting it right, and serious about delivering a quality experience as quickly as they can.

Every piece of software goes through a ton of builds that cause new problems as they fix them. If DirecTV were following the lead of other manufacturers (and their own past) we would all be running 0xbe and waiting for the next major "service pack". Instead they have chosen to let some less polished builds out into the wild but in the meantime, when was the last time you heard a huge uproar about Dolby Digital not working, OTA not being ready, overwhelming numbers of missed recordings, all the stuff we were screaming about in October.

PROGRESS IS BEING MADE. I wish it were faster. I wish it had been perfect 6 months ago. Heck, I wish it had been perfect a year ago when I saw the mockup at CES '06.

Maybe the developers need more help. Maybe some people are right that they are clueless in fixing the problems. I'd love to be there and talk to them and know for myself. But that's not going to happen. In the meantime, I SINCERELY APPRECIATE their hard work, and the amount they've listened to us and included us. I also appreciate all the releases.

Most of all, to paraphrase raw6464, I'm glad it's not MY job on the line.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Actually, I think that "perfection" is actually fairly simple to define in this case. It boils down to: *does it do what's advertised on the box and listed in the owner's manual?*

For the moment, the answer is clearly *no*.

I guess the most depressing thing is the continued software releases, each of which seem to work for a few days, then crash and burn. At least, that's been my experience on the two boxes that I've had.

And I genuinely *hope* that someone at DirecTV is most unhappy about this state of affairs. Indeed if the software folks warned the upper-ups that this beast wasn't ready for prime time, then I think the head of whoever said "SHIP IT" should be delivered up on a platter.

As for me, my box remains in the closet and I remain here, hoping against hope that there will be a silver bullet that will fix this thing. But that free 622 that E* is offering come the first of February looks more and more tempting all the time.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> I'm in IT as well, and you HIT upon the key word there, TWEAK. These are not tweaks, these are full blown fixes for reliability problems. A tweak is to get the guide to work faster (which they have done). A fix is to get the bleeping thing to NOT crash. Imagine if you will, you are at work on your PC and you are in the middle of an important technical document (as you are in IT, I would imagine you've had to write these from time to time), and then you got the BSOD. THIS is equivalent to the BSOD. While all my recordings have gone off as expected, having a crash while watching something, could cause me to lose whatever I'm recording on the other tuner (if not all of it, then part of it). As I've said before, most of us are "spoiled" by our TiVos and got our first TiVo AFTER the intial bugs were worked out, so to us, the TiVo was reliable. I'm hoping that the HR20 gets to that point eventually, and soon. Luckily, I still have my old D*Tivo on my old SD TV, so while the issues are being worked on, I have a backup.


Interesting thought. Better to reboot or to lockup? When I'm gone on vacation or trip, I know which I'd rather  But when I'm home, watching a show that really won't cause a lockup, but looks like it might, I'd rather it didn't reboot, just then...

Best of all, fix the defects altogether, of course.

Thinking out loud,
Tom


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My guess is you saw & learned more in hours of direct contact (no pun intended) at the CES than a thousand posts of speculation, criticism, and issues here.
> 
> The 3 biggest misconceptions about the HR20:
> 
> ...


Facts?

1. No one has ever said that "most" people are having problem. You seem to have misunderstood that issue.
2. Directv may "care" deeply about its customers, but it certainly didn't "think" too deeply about them when it launched the HR20 in its current state, based on the number of attempts to fix it so far.
3. They are committing resources, no doubt about it. But those resources at their current level may not be enough to make it all better. And what choice did they really have anyway? Imagine if they had let it slide from day one. Sure, that would have been a smart move. No, they have to get it fixed, when they had their top PR guy calling it their "flagship" DVR, and making so many CES announcements (ViiV, 100 HD channels, etc.) around it being able to work "flawlessly" (stealing a word from their Nov. 3 CNET response to all the bad user feedback).

Sure, it would be more productive to debate (compare or trade would be a better term) new features, but isn't that putting the cart before the horse? The thing is still not working to everyone's satisfaction, least of all Directv's judging by Tibber's experience at CES, and the hurried effort to get a software fix that gets us all on the same page.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My guess is you saw & learned more in hours of direct contact (no pun intended) at the CES than a thousand posts of speculation, criticism, and issues here.
> 
> The 3 biggest misconceptions about the HR20:
> 
> ...


I'm sure EVERYTHING you say is very true, and I really believe they want to fix this and help us and all, but in dealing with them, sometimes I think everything they do is bottom line related as opposed to customer centric related. I think the problems with this box, plus the change to a lease model on top of an upfront fee for the box, on top of reinventing the wheel (i.e. moving from a rock solid Tivo platform to something new), plus CSRs who know nothing, plus installers who's qualifications seem dubious, and it starts to eat at your confidence level. I'm stuck now for 2 years and I have every faith that these guys will get this fixed, but the vibes we are getting as customers are NOT good. Right now, I'm not sure I would recommend D* to friends and family.

My other issue is, knowing the unreliability of the basic functions of this box, WHY would you be bringing out new features? I know there was pressure on them to do OTA, but the networking piece could have waited. The guide speed could have waited. Their resources need to be fixing the issues, not new features.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The 3 biggest misconceptions about the HR20:
> 1) Most people are having problems - not so
> 2) D*TV doesn't care about the HR20 or its customers
> 3) D*TV doesn't have or want to commit the resources to address any remaining issues or future enhancements - not so


With respect to (1), how do you know this? What data do you have access to?

With respect to (2) and (3) I don't believe this is true, or that it is a prevailing opinion. I and many others believe they care very much about getting the HR20 right, are committing resources to it, and are scrambling like crazy to get it working properly. What many do question is their _ability_ to produce a reliable full-featured DVR in a reasonable time frame. Since they have never done it before, it's not a misconception...just different people having different degrees of faith.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> ... in dealing with [DirecTV], sometimes I think everything they do is bottom line related as opposed to customer centric related.


Welcome to the real world. Unfortunately, this is what companies tend to do so that they remain viable (just saying). For me, DirecTV has stayed well above the average mark in customer service, quality and (yes) reliability. Perfect? no, but I'm definitely satisfied with the product.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

brott said:


> Welcome to the real world. Unfortunately, this is what companies tend to do so that they remain viable (just saying). For me, DirecTV has stayed well above the average mark in customer service, quality and (yes) reliability. Perfect? no, but I'm definitely satisfied with the product.


And...in an increasingly competitive marketplace, customer service/satisfaction is not at all unrelated to the bottom line. People have choices, and ultimately will vote with their wallets -- 2-yr commitments or not.

I have also found D* to be above average in customer service, though certainly not perfect. It's a major reason why I choose to remain with them even through the current "rocky" period.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> And...in an increasingly competitive marketplace, customer service/satisfaction is not at all unrelated to the bottom line. People have choices, and ultimately will vote with their wallets -- 2-yr commitments or not.
> 
> I have also found D* to be above average in customer service, though certainly not perfect. It's a major reason why I choose to remain with them even through the current "rocky" period.


For the first time in nearly 8 years of having D*, I'm seriously beginning to consider my options outside of D*. I really enjoy their programming, pq, etc., but I can't stand by while they continue to TRY to get this box working correctly and continue to underachieve. They continue to promise new features, but they can't even get the box to work correctly in the first place. I completely detest cable, but now that Verizon FiOS is coming into my area I'm seriously thinking about cancelling with D*. With Verizon I can get the new HDTiVo (which I see now has a $100 coupon via Costco) and have pq that is comparable with D*. I would at least have more faith in TiVo to fix the issues with their new HD box given their track record. Plus, the HD TiVo has DLB!!!


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

brott said:


> Welcome to the real world. Unfortunately, this is what companies tend to do so that they remain viable (just saying). For me, DirecTV has stayed well above the average mark in customer service, quality and (yes) reliability. Perfect? no, but I'm definitely satisfied with the product.


Trust me, I know all about the corporate world, working for a large company that is constantly looking to improve their bottom line. And I know that it's probably not any worse than cable. It's just frustrating when things snowball like this. I keep thinking at some point a company is going to come along with actual "pride" in their customer service at a price point acceptable to the general public. If such a company eventually comes along, I think they will make a bundle!!!


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

I have a question. Since many people seem to be worried about the amount of upgrades that have happened to the box. If it where not for this forum or others like it how would you even know? Would it even matter? The box would just seem to get better or worse depending on your given situation. In the end if it's one large patch or 50 smaller ones does it really matter?


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

tiger2005 said:


> For the first time in nearly 8 years of having D*, I'm seriously beginning to consider my options outside of D*.


I hear you. For the first time in my nearly 10 years with D*, I did the same -- due both to recent D* issues (HR10 botched 6.3 upgrade, HR20 problems, awful SD quality for sports) as well as FIOS arriving in my neighborhood.

I sat back and took a long look at my priorities and options. Ultimately I went ahead and leased an HR20 to add to our DVR collection, thus commiting to stay another two years. I'm betting that D* can get the issues with MPEG4 and the HR20 resolved, and that we will in fact soon see an explosion in HD content -- sports being of particular importance in my case.

I hope that I made the right decision, but it's of course too early to tell. I can say that if I were not a major (out-of-market) sports fan, I most likely would have moved to FIOS with the Tivo S3.

It's going to be an interesting next 12-24 months...I hope more enjoyable than painful.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> I have a question. Since many people seem to be worried about the amount of upgrades that have happened to the box. If it where not for this forum or others like it how would you even know? Would it even matter? The box would just seem to get better or worse depending on your given situation. In the end if it's one large patch or 50 smaller ones does it really matter?


The type of folks that come here would know.  Anytime something glitched we'd be checking the system info screen.

I personally don't worry about the _number_ of upgrades, and don't see it as a negative _per se_. Frankly I am fine with them (at this point in the life cycle) attempting to make, then test, smaller incremental changes, rather than rolling a large number of them into major upgrades and trying to figure out what broke.


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## divascuba (Jan 17, 2007)

Four (4) service calls by the technicians, 2 box changes and they only GOWK! (God only knows)

Does anyone know if the "other" provider is doing any better providing DVR-HD?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> I have a question. Since many people seem to be worried about the amount of upgrades that have happened to the box. If it where not for this forum or others like it how would you even know? Would it even matter? The box would just seem to get better or worse depending on your given situation. In the end if it's one large patch or 50 smaller ones does it really matter?


It's a no win situation.

You'll have people ***** to high heaven if there is a long time between updates.
You'll have people ***** to high heaven if there are lots of updates.

You can't win.

They've actually gone a month now since the last update.
We've had a couple test builds, RC's, released but nothing national update wise.
To those not "in the know" there hasn't been a release in a while.

So we have some in various threads saying to release 119 already, it's been too long since the last update.
And then in other threads we have people complaining about all the updates.

Again, can't win.

I'm never worried with the number of updates. So long as each one is fixing something or bringing a new feature then all is good. I just don't see why people would ever complain about a product getting better.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

Nothing will ever be "perfect," but if we use TiVO as the benchmark for "perfect," I don't think the HR20, based upon prior performance, will ever be "perfect." I will consider it percent if:

1. I schedule it to automatically record something, and it just does it. This has yet to happen reliably, and I am holding out less hope for this over time.

2. I sit down with the remote, press list, and don't spend a moment thinking, "man, I really hope it actually recorded 24 last night. Oh, OK, there it is."

3. I select "play" and don't spend a moment thinking, "man, I hope it actually recorded 24 last night, and it will actually play it back for me without asking instantly if I want to keep or delete. Oh, OK, it is playing..."

4. I can press any trickplay button at any time and not have to worry that my action will crash my DVR, requiring a RBR.

5. I can press any button, or any combination of buttons on my remote at any time and not have the result be a lockup/reset/RBR.

With each release, I have less and less hope that they will actually get this "perfect."


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> It's a no win situation.
> 
> You'll have people ***** to high heaven if there is a long time between updates.
> You'll have people ***** to high heaven if there are lots of updates.
> ...


To be very honest I don't understand why some people (not just here) always feel the need to complain about something. I mean sheesh life isn't that bad is it?


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> It's a no win situation.
> 
> You'll have people ***** to high heaven if there is a long time between updates.
> You'll have people ***** to high heaven if there are lots of updates.
> ...


Not complaining about the updates, because sooner or later, they are bound to get it right, right? The updates, in my view, are just evidence that they are having some internal problems getting it fixed. Is each one fixing something or bringing a new feature? Maybe, but too often it is fixing something the last release broke, it seems to me.

No, I disagree. Directv can win. All they need to do is deliver a reliable box for 99.9999% of their customers. Seems pretty simple, but I guess it's not.


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## dpluta (Sep 5, 2006)

I've been with D* since year one. I've never had a box that worked 100%. I've had Sony, RCA, Hughes, and Samsung boxes. There's always been something wrong. The first Sony box I had was best, but that was many years ago. I'm highly doubtful that Dish is any better and we all know what cable provides. 

I'm as frustrated as anyone, but I have to admit that D* is coming through with consistent updates that appear to be slowly fixing a variety of problems. I'm not sticking up for them. I'm pissed that I spent $300 on it and D* support wont give me anything for my troubles. However, the box is providing a lot of convenience and entertainment to the family, so I guess it's all about tradeoffs and priorities. If D* comes through soon with all the national HD channels they announced at CES, this is going to be the premiere HDDVR. 

I'm hanging onto it. The hassles involved in switching just aren't worth it.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> I have a question. Since many people seem to be worried about the amount of upgrades that have happened to the box. If it where not for this forum or others like it how would you even know? Would it even matter? The box would just seem to get better or worse depending on your given situation. In the end if it's one large patch or 50 smaller ones does it really matter?


To your question of those not knowing about the forum, I am getting to know quite a few of those people (they have started writing to me since that HDTV Magazine article came out), and what they are doing calling Directv constantly, asking when their HR20s are going to work. Poor souls.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> No, I disagree. Directv can win. All they need to do is deliver a reliable box for 99.9999% of their customers. Seems pretty simple, but I guess it's not.


But how do you do that at this point?
The HR20 is released. It is out there.

Do you now leave it at the state it is in... today.
And work on a software update for the next 4 months... fixing everything... regresion testing... detailed testing... elaborate beta testing... do what ever it takes... at what ever cost (both in customer retention, employee costs, reputation)... to get it to the "perfect" unit.

Or do you continue, to piece it together... as you fix 5 things... get it out there. Can't change what has happened... you can only use the past as a learning tool for the future.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> To your question of those not knowing about the forum, I am getting to know quite a few of those people (they have started writing to me since that HDTV Magazine article came out), and what they are doing calling Directv constantly, asking when their HR20s are going to work. Poor souls.


But on the flip side... why are they calling, with that question?
I mean.. do they think they have a magic date on when everything will be okay?

Just as you get emails from people because of your articles... I get similar messages, from people that don't post (I get them via PM or email)... of people that are happy with their HR20's, even with it's issues.... "It is so much better then what I had" is a common theme... the other, is that they are gratefull that DirecTV is actively trying to work on the solution... that this isn't a "forgotten" product.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

A lot of people have posted that they think that DirecTV "will eventually get it right". Here's an issue that I don't think has been discussed in this context.

It's already clear from the software side that DirecTV either has incompetent programmers, or didn't do enough QA before releasing this product, or even each patch. What if the hardware engineers are also as incompetent or didn't do enough QA? It could very well be that there are some hardware limitations to this box that weren't anticipated and that some of the fixes that have been released are an attempt to circumvent a hardware deficiency?

What's been bothering me is that if the hardware engineers were as short-sighted as the software engineers, this box definitely will never be "perfect".


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

TomF, 

I for one would appreciate if we could keep this forum, and this post, away from personal attacks on the developers. I don't think it's fair and it's certainly not productive.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

TomF said:


> A lot of people have posted that they think that DirecTV "will eventually get it right". Here's an issue that I don't think has been discussed in this context.
> 
> It's already clear from the software side that DirecTV either has incompetent programmers, or didn't do enough QA before releasing this product, or even each patch. What if the hardware engineers are also as incompetent or didn't do enough QA? It could very well be that there are some hardware limitations to this box that weren't anticipated and that some of the fixes that have been released are an attempt to circumvent a hardware deficiency?
> 
> What's been bothering me is that if the hardware engineers were as short-sighted as the software engineers, this box definitely will never be "perfect".


Here is why I think they will get it right:
Both HR20's I have... in my home, in normal usage, in primary usage... function as expected... That tells me, they "can" get it right. As they have..

They are now at a point, is that they have to eliminate the things that make it go wrong.

Hardware - Design, Q/A, Production != Software - Design, Q/A, Production.

Different skill sets, in general different techniques... and with very different levels of criticalness.

Hardware for a product of this nature... you really have to get it right the first time... there is no going back, as software can only go so far to over come any hardware issues.

And frankly I don't think we are even remotely close at a point where we can even START to look at this being a hardware issue... I just don't.

And back to what I said a few posts agao...
The Software issues... the damage is done... it was release when it was, and in the state that it was.... now... it is a completely different ballgame. They no longer have the luxury of sitting back and "Delaying" things ever time if it is not functioning perfectly.... right now it is a process of... Is this "next" better then what it is out there, and does it introduce or make an existing issue bigger..... that is the point they are at now.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> TomF,
> 
> I for one would appreciate if we could keep this forum, and this post, away from personal attacks on the developers. I don't think it's fair and it's certainly not productive.


Ok, how about referring to them as the people who wrote the software who didn't get it right the first time and continue to not get it right? I just used a single word to describe that.

You must not have made it to my point that perhaps the hardware is already imperfect for the same reasons.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

TomF said:


> It's already clear from the software side that DirecTV either has incompetent programmers, or didn't do enough QA before releasing this product, or even each patch. What if the hardware engineers are also as incompetent or didn't do enough QA? It could very well be that there are some hardware limitations to this box that weren't anticipated and that some of the fixes that have been released are an attempt to circumvent a hardware deficiency?


Then there will be a massive box swap, and lotsa pink slips emanating from El Segundo 

It's not out of the realm of possibility that there are hardware issues, perhaps in design. These aren't particularly complex hardware designs, though, they're relatively simple computers (yeah, I know, easy for me to say). So if there are hardware issues, I would lean more towards the QC end of things.

I tend to believe it's a software thing, at least primarily. My take is that, rather than starting "small," DirecTV is trying to not only duplicate but extend the feature set of other DVRs that have been through a series of gradual refinements -- and finding it more complex and difficult than they imagined it would be.

But that's only my "gut" feeling, and you could well be correct.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But how do you do that at this point?
> The HR20 is released. It is out there.
> 
> Do you now leave it at the state it is in... today.
> ...


Agree, you have to keep trying. It's just not going very well, in my mind. Maybe this is a common occurrence, but I'd bet this is fairly unprecedented for a consumer electronics product, especially one described as "flagship." All I can say is I own every gadget/consumer electronics toy/product imaginable (and some I have 3-4 of), and I've never seen this scenario before with any of it, including DVRs.

Of course, keep working on it. Don't wait. But maybe boost the resources to make the next fix the real reliability fix. Seems Directv should have the $$$ to get it done now, no?


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Hardware for a product of this nature... you really have to get it right the first time... there is no going back, as software can only go so far to over come any hardware issues.
> 
> And frankly I don't think we are even remotely close at a point where we can even START to look at this being a hardware issue... I just don't.


This is exactly my point. There must have been an awful lot of short-sightedness regarding the software, the number of "fixes" indicates that, what if the hardware design was also short-sighted? Yeah, I know that H/W guys are completely different than S/W guys, I talking about the overall product management, decisions that were made, how cheap to go with the hardware, how much QA to do, etc. It's simply a comparative case of "if S wasn't correct when released, and S depends on H, is there any chance that H isn't correct?"

Notice that I've said "What if". This is purely speculation on my part, I'm just throwing out another idea as to whether this product will ever be "perfect"' and a possible reason why not. That is the question posed at the beginning of this thread, everybody's answer is pure speculation. And very few of us have any information to make anything but a guess.

And if I were in charge of this product, I'd start looking at anything that would get the boxes stable for everyone, including the hardware. Not doing so would be short-sighted.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But on the flip side... why are they calling, with that question?
> I mean.. do they think they have a magic date on when everything will be okay?
> 
> Just as you get emails from people because of your articles... I get similar messages, from people that don't post (I get them via PM or email)... of people that are happy with their HR20's, even with it's issues.... "It is so much better then what I had" is a common theme... the other, is that they are gratefull that DirecTV is actively trying to work on the solution... that this isn't a "forgotten" product.


They are calling to complain because their box is going nuts on them, and they have no idea why? Did I miss something here? I am talking about people who were blindsided by their new product, fully expecting it to work, people like my 70-year-old father-in-law, who has no idea what DBSTalk is, or why he's getting black screens, sound dropouts, etc.

Once the early issues surfaced (and it happened quickly), why didn't Directv put out a "Buyer Beware" press release (or better yet, post warning labels on the HR20 boxes, or online with the ordering information) that the DVR they are leasing may not work, but "we're figuring it out. So buy at your own risk." Maybe that would have stopped a few people from plunking down their $300, or whatever. Maybe not. But it would have been honest.

Earl, please. Directv certainly never wanted to launch a less-than-worthy flagship DVR, but they did (for some unknown number of subs). Now, they need to take their lumps for it, until they get it fixed. Happens to the best of companies, why should they be any different?


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

The fact that this thread as 101 replies and 1350 views in less than 12 hours certainly tells us something about the unreliability of the HR20!


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

TomF said:


> This is exactly my point. There must have been an awful lot of short-sightedness regarding the software, the number of "fixes" indicates that, what if the hardware design was also short-sighted? Yeah, I know that H/W guys are completely different than S/W guys, I talking about the overall product management, decisions that were made, how cheap to go with the hardware, how much QA to do, etc. It's simply a comparative case of "if S wasn't correct when released, and S depends on H, is there any chance that H isn't correct?"
> 
> Notice that I've said "What if". This is purely speculation on my part, I'm just throwing out another idea as to whether this product will ever be "perfect"' and a possible reason why not. That is the question posed at the beginning of this thread, everybody's answer is pure speculation. And very few of us have any information to make anything but a guess.
> 
> And if I were in charge of this product, I'd start looking at anything that would get the boxes stable for everyone, including the hardware. Not doing so would be short-sighted.


I think you have hit on something. One person who wrote to me recently (no names because I promised to keep him out of it) says he was in touch with a Directv executive, who said they were going back to the manufacturer to get some answers. That could be totally out of school, and I can't say any more, but that comment, if remotely accurate, would point in the direction you are heading in, no?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> They are calling to complain because their box is going nuts on them, and they have no idea why? Did I miss something here? I am talking about people who were blindsided by their new product, fully expecting it to work, people like my 70-year-old father-in-law, who has no idea what DBSTalk is, or why he's getting black screens, sound dropouts, etc.
> 
> Once the early issues surfaced (and it happened quickly), why didn't Directv put out a "Buyer Beware" press release (or better yet, post warning labels on the HR20 boxes, or online with the ordering information) that the DVR they are leasing may not work, but "we're figuring it out. So buy at your own risk." Maybe that would have stopped a few people from plunking down their $300, or whatever. Maybe not. But it would have been honest.
> 
> Earl, please. Directv certainly never wanted to launch a less-than-worthy flagship DVR, but they did (for some unknown number of subs). Now, they need to take their lumps for it, until they get it fixed. Happens to the best of companies, why should they be any different?


Have you ever seen a company, within the first few months of a product... put out a press release "buyer beware"... come-on... this is the real world we are talking about here... not the utopia of customer relations.

Yes... everyone has their right to call, and compalin if they are having issues.
But if the CSR said: Yes, we know of the problem. Sorry, right now we don't have a date of when it will be fixed. How many of those people then say, "Thank you." and then hang up?

You are right... they did release a product that has plenty of issues..
And they are taking their lumps for it... Seems like ever Blog, ePaper, and forum board are all in a row... punching away. I think in the last 5 months, I have seen one article... that pointed out the "non-sexy" side of the story, that for what ever number of people it truely is... the HR20 is doing EXACTLY what it is supposed to.

But what gets really tiresome... is the thinking that you can throw more resources at the problem... different resources at the problem... and all will get fixed right now.... It just isn't that simple... They have a significantly large team working on the HR20... more then probably most of you would reasonable guess....

All honesty... bugs are *EASY* to fix for the most part....
It is finding the root cause, is the difficult part.

There is a WHOLE lot more to the HR20 "saga" then just the technology piece of it. There are more factors then the chips and the bits that make up the HR20.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> The fact that this thread as 101 replies and 1350 views in less than 12 hours certainly tells us something about the unreliability of the HR20!


Sure does.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I think you have hit on something. One person who wrote to me recently (no names because I promised to keep him out of it) says he was in touch with a Directv executive, who said they were going back to the manufacturer to get some answers. That could be totally out of school, and I can't say any more, but that comment, if remotely accurate, would point in the direction you are heading in, no?


Yup, I think that they need to look at all possibilities.

This reminds me of an experience I had with my car. A number of owners, me included, were reporting that if the transmission were shifted quickly from first to second, it would "crunch", as if the synchros weren't completely matched. This was discussed at some length on a forum dedicated to that car and those that experienced the crunch were castigated by the people who didn't have the problem and being told that they just didn't know how to shift, among other things. Eventually the manufacturer discovered that there was what they called a "stacking tolerance problem". This is caused by all of the parts of the transmission being within tolerance, but the total variance of the tolerances put the sum of the parts out of tolerance. The manufacturer issued a service bulletin and my transmission was removed and rebuilt with better parts. This solved the problem.

I'm not an electrical engineer, but maybe all of the parts are within spec, and slight assembly variations could cause the problems that have been seen. Maybe all of the "bad" boxes were manufactured on Mondays and Fridays. Who knows? Again, what if they've discovered hardware deficiencies that they are attempting to fix with software.

At any rate, I hope that this is not the case with the HR20, but you can't just concentrate on one part of a problem, you have to look at all parts of a problem.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Have you ever seen a company, within the first few months of a product... put out a press release "buyer beware"... come-on... this is the real world we are talking about here... not the utopia of customer relations.


Agreed.



Earl Bonovich said:


> There is a WHOLE lot more to the HR20 "saga" then just the technology piece of it. There are more factors then the chips and the bits that make up the HR20.


That is undoubtedly true.

Point is, we users don't want a "saga," just a DVR that we can largely "set and forget."

On the good side, this saga has undoubtedly been good for the growth/activity of the forum here, and fostered a pretty nice community of users. Testy occasionally, but nice


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

I think I can wait it out.

I went through 3 copies of the GXCEBOT. I went through 3 copies of the HR10-250. You know, those wonderful machines with TiVo software.

Cripes, I even survived several years of Pegasux. Anyone else here who was held captive by the NRTC knows what that was like. 

I still ended up each time with a better product than anything else available to me. Maybe folks living in the Big City with competing cable systems, FIOS, etc. revel in choices; but, out here -- it's Comcrap, DISH and D*.

I watched a few members of our local Home Theatre forum suffer through 18 months of E* PVR921 before it got to 90% reliable. No thanks. Comcrap is worse. Our Telco went from US Worst to Qworst. Nothing offered there.

I can wait. And, besides -- my HR20 works just fine since Santa.


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## jayvista (Oct 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Have you ever seen a company, within the first few months of a product... put out a press release "buyer beware"... come-on... this is the real world we are talking about here... not the utopia of customer relations..


Successful companies would not release the product so early that it would require this warning.



Earl Bonovich said:


> But what gets really tiresome... is the thinking that you can throw more resources at the problem... different resources at the problem... and all will get fixed right now.... It just isn't that simple... They have a significantly large team working on the HR20... more then probably most of you would reasonable guess......


Then WHY - O - WHY are they throwing more features into this unstable product until they fix the base issues (Viiv, OTA)? The only way this product will become stable is for a product mangement change, that will say ENOUGH! and do a feature freeze until the serious bugs are fixed. The fact that these bugs seem to re-appear on ever new release is a direct reflection of the failure of product mangement at D*.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

Ed Campbell said:


> Cripes, I even survived several years of Pegasux. Anyone else here who was held captive by the NRTC knows what that was like.


After all this time, you just had to bring them up again!?!?!?!?!


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## spidey (Sep 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Here is why I think they will get it right:
> Both HR20's I have... in my home, in normal usage, in primary usage... function as expected... That tells me, they "can" get it right. As they have..
> 
> They are now at a point, is that they have to eliminate the things that make it go wrong.
> ...


Earl agree with you. I have 2HR20s and basically have been problem free. One has had flaky issues from day one but things like reboot having a different behaviour of blue lights than the other machine. Most other issues have occurred with my wife and I both trying to control unit from our own remotes, or times when maybe we did something wrong ( in the first 2 weeks or so).

I am starting to wonder if the problems folks are seeing are related to interactions with the unit while it might be doing dual or single recordings? Most recording I do is either when we aren't anywhere near our home or not viewing television or just plain old bad wiring or other factors external to the unit. I also think that some folks have received bad units just like any other electronic item.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

TomF said:


> I'm not an electrical engineer, but maybe all of the parts are within spec, and slight assembly variations could cause the problems that have been seen. Maybe all of the "bad" boxes were manufactured on Mondays and Fridays. Who knows? Again, what if they've discovered hardware deficiencies that they are attempting to fix with software.


Other than the custom board (which is mass produced of course), there is not a lot weird that can go wrong with a solid state device as long as it sits in an environment for which it was designed. The most likely culprits for any hardware issues are mechanical (the HDD or fans) or heat. If the device just doesn't work, then it will be noticeable (no video, etc.). If it is flaky and it is hardware related, then perhaps there was a fabrication issue where the heat sink was not placed on tight enough or the fans weren't plugged in. It is also possible that one of the chips will not operate within the specified guidelines. A properly tested chip would work as long as the environmental conditions were met.

Now, if someone has their HR20 stuffed in a closed cabinet with lots of other components (all generating heat), then most certainly, the HR20 could be operation outside of the predicted environment. This would likely cause problems that could best be described as flaky, but it could also either work or fail completely (fry). The key indicator is the temperature on the HR20 status screens. Mine typically runs between 124-degrees and 127-degrees and I don't believe that I have had any heat problems.

A failing drive will also cause flaky behavior as bits get scoured in the wrong direction or worse yet, the drive times out looking for some data causing a delay in the real time aspect of TV. A reformat may fix this type of problem as the bad blocks should get pushed aside and your drive will just be ever-so-slightly smaller than it used to be. Down side? You lose any programs that you may have previously recorded, and you have to set up your Series Links again.

The most likely cause of all of the flakiness is in the software. It is very unlikely that the components in the HR20 are "dying" at a higher rate than if the components were in another device. It is more likely that either environment or software is the root cause of each of the problems that have been reported here.


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## disneyfreak (Dec 4, 2006)

Several programs have failed to record in the past few days. I have Elvis 1 sw. Oprah (woo), 24, and EastEnders. not sure why. I have two r-10's that recorded as backups without flaw.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jayvista said:


> Successful companies would not release the product so early that it would require this warning.


Let's see... Apple has released products that need updates...
Microsoft has released products that need updates (some immediately after install).. Sony, Toshiba, LG, Pioneer, Nokia, Motorola...

Guess none of them have ever released a product, that needed to be updated... soon after it's release... Glad to know they are not successfull



jayvista said:


> Then WHY - O - WHY are they throwing more features into this unstable product until they fix the base issues (Viiv, OTA)? The only way this product will become stable is for a product mangement change, that will say ENOUGH! and do a feature freeze until the serious bugs are fixed. The fact that these bugs seem to re-appear on ever new release is a direct reflection of the failure of product mangement at D*.


Umm... isn't that what I have said for the last three weeks? Of what they are doing? That is the change in focus after the results of 0x10b.

The whole "wopping" feature they added in 0x115/0x119, was the ability to bring the box out of standby with a push of a different button.

That is EXACTLY what they are doing now with the current release. Features are on hold... until the box stabalizes.. period.

It is not a "direct" reflection of the failure of product management at DirecTV... it is a "direct" refelection on how difficult it is to identify the root cause of the issue, and eliminate it.

But hey... view it how ever you want....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jbrasure said:


> The fact that this thread as 101 replies and 1350 views in less than 12 hours certainly tells us something about the unreliability of the HR20!





tstarn said:


> Sure does.


So what does it tell you?

It tells me that we have a vibrant forum community here... that is intrested in others opinion... and for the most part... enjoy a decent discussion..


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## mhayes70 (Mar 21, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> The fact that this thread as 101 replies and 1350 views in less than 12 hours certainly tells us something about the unreliability of the HR20!


Just because someone looks at a thread or replys to it doesn't mean it very unreliable. I been here reading these post and my HR20 is a very stable machine. (Knock on wood  ) I have the latest beta 0x119 and no problems and no rbr.


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Tom_S said:


> I am amazed that people experience *no* reboots of their TIVO units over the years. I have had three and they all experienced this from time to time. The R10 was the worst, it would reboot without me ever knowing when. I know it did because my 30 second skip would have to be reprogrammed. Also had Pink screen of death about 3 times. The last time it took 3 hours to recover(at least it did).
> 
> SO if they could get the HR20 down to a reboot every 2 months or so I will say, IMO, it is on par with my experience with DirecTivo.


Original DTivo owner here:

1 reboot since 2002 I think when we got the box?

1 (ONE)

Yes I said 1, One, uno, solo uno, nada mas que uno...

That's ready for prime time. That is the bar. With the HR-20 D* is so far away from the bar they can't even see the mat let alone the verticals.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

S. DiThomas said:


> Original DTivo owner here:
> 
> 1 reboot since 2002 I think when we got the box?
> 
> ...


Doesn't surprise me. Have two HDVRs and I have seen only a few reboots between them since installation in March of '03. Neither of them have ever missed a _single_ show that they should have recorded (save for during signal outages during occasional severe storms), and never was a recorded show unplayable. The HR10-250 has been only slightly less reliable than that, until the recent guide data issues that now seem to have been resolved (knock on wood).

Probably luckier than most, and I'm frankly not expecting the HR20 to meet that standard, but I do want it to be close. I can live with a different GUI, but that is indeed the type of reliability in the core functionality I am looking for.

With the HR20, I guess karma is catching up with me somewhat...while others get the boxes with no problems, I have had a number of issues. I will say that 119 seems to be the best release yet.


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> ...I'm frankly not expecting the HR20 to meet that standard, but I do want it to be close. I can live with a different GUI, but that is indeed the type of reliability in the core functionality I am looking for.


Bwaldron:

Why the heck not? What standard do you expect D* to meet with their own in house product and software?

And if not the TIVO standard why not?


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

S. DiThomas said:


> Bwaldron:
> 
> Why the heck not? What standard do you expect D* to meet with their own in house product and software?
> 
> And if not the TIVO standard why not?


Fair question.

Basically I don't believe that they can get to that standard, given the issues that remain this long after release (padding issues, IKD bug, etc.). Developing DVRs is not yet a proven core competency for D*.

I do expect _close_, and I would be _glad_ to be proven wrong, and the unit to be 99.9% reliable real soon now.

I guess I have reverted to using the Dish DVRs as a standard, rather than ReplayTV or Tivo. Unfortunately, it took E* a LONG time to produce a solid DVR.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Have you ever seen a company, within the first few months of a product... put out a press release "buyer beware"... come-on... this is the real world we are talking about here... not the utopia of customer relations.
> 
> Yes... everyone has their right to call, and compalin if they are having issues.
> But if the CSR said: Yes, we know of the problem. Sorry, right now we don't have a date of when it will be fixed. How many of those people then say, "Thank you." and then hang up?
> ...


The sticker suggestion was a joke. Of course I wouldn't expect them to do it, but it would be accurate.

As for the excuses about the HR20, and what it takes to fix it, you actually make the point that they have a mess on their hands, whatever the percentage of boxes that are broken or breaking (due to the latest software release). I, for one, would not be surprised if the 119 release screws up my HR20, which is working pretty well right now. The entire process seems to be devolving into a guessing game, it seems. And that ain't good. Just look at all the posts here, with one frustrated user after another. They aren't making it up, I'm sure. How many new posts are there showing up where a person says their HR20 worked since (fill in the weeks, months) and all of a sudden, they are have new serious problems?

I would never wish it to happen to your HR20, but if it did, you might feel differently. Maybe not.


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## iaflyer (Jan 7, 2007)

islesfan said:


> I will consider it perfent if:
> 
> 1. I schedule it to automatically record something, and it just does it. This has yet to happen reliably, and I am holding out less hope for this over time.
> 
> ...


islesfan brings up some good points - which is my "standard" for an acceptable DVR - DirecTivo, HR20, whatever. If a unit meets these requirements, I can put up with a slow menus, different interface, other features (Viiv for example) being difficult, etc.

I had a HR20 for a short time - less than a week but in that time I had to reboot it more times than I had to reboot my DirecTivo in *5 years*. I tried recording shows - either they weren't recorded (either via just pushing R or via Series Link) or had the BSOD. I had other problems that others are reporting now.

In the end, I felt the HR20 wasn't ready for daily use in my household and my wife and I weren't going to "put up with it" when there were other options. I understand that if you live in an area not served by cable or within OTA reception, the HR20 may be your only hope (other than E*) and that may change how much you are willing to put up with it.

In the end - I returned the HR20 and am seriously contemplating leaving DirecTV to get my HD elsewhere. Prior to my experience with the HR20, I never though I would want to leave DirecTV. Such is what DirecTV has done to a long term customer (5.5 years).


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## WolfClan Dan (Jan 10, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Have you ever seen a company, within the first few months of a product... put out a press release "buyer beware"... come-on... this is the real world we are talking about here... not the utopia of customer relations.
> 
> Yes... everyone has their right to call, and compalin if they are having issues.
> But if the CSR said: Yes, we know of the problem. Sorry, right now we don't have a date of when it will be fixed. How many of those people then say, "Thank you." and then hang up?
> ...


speaking for myself,

i trusted Directv and for what ever reason, they failed to deliver.

I personally considered Directv gold! For quite a while they were the cats meow in my house. As of late, I do not care anymore if I can not recieve Sunday Ticket on Dish!! NFL is why I have remained with Directv and I am so disgusted, my own wishes no longer matter!!

Directv's apparent about face in my eyes has me thinking, they do not deserve my cash.

Yes, that is my decision to make, but to leave a superior service due to inferior SERVICE is a damn shame.


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## 4DThinker (Dec 17, 2006)

Personally, I'm glad that the HR20 CAN be upgraded. You can't imagine how very disappointed I've been in many of my recent electronics purchases that were NOT perfect and could NOT be "fixed" or even improved via an update.

On the other hand, I didn't expect or really want to have to "suffer" through several updates and the related flaws to get a DVR that works only as well as it's box and manual claim it will. My Hughes HDVR2 worked perfectly (as claimed in it's manual) on day one, and every day therafter until I put it back in it's box after "upgrading" to the HR20.


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But what gets really tiresome... is the thinking that you can throw more resources at the problem... different resources at the problem... and all will get fixed right now.... It just isn't that simple... They have a significantly large team working on the HR20... more then probably most of you would reasonable guess....


I believe the expression that you're looking for is that just because a woman can have a baby in nine months doesn't mean that nine women can do it one. (The Mythical Man-Month, if I'm not mistaken.)

I have a rant on the HR20 compensation thread if anyone cares to read it. This isn't the first time that a company's been in trouble with a product, and a little customer outreach might go a long way.

There are three operational effectiveness functions for the HR20 - only three. Watch TV. Record TV. Playback recorded TV. Everything else - scheduling, the guide, the to-do list, trickplay, everything else - exists for operational suitability.

Patience is holding out even out among those that can't experience operational effectiveness because - in my inflated opinion - it's really hard to grasp blowing the watching TV part of things. But customer retention and satisfaction is based on operational suitability features. Everyone who likes the HR20 over the 10-250 and has posted here has proven this point. (Trickplay and recording stopped working during a show I was watching when the phone rang. Discovering this, I agreed to call the party back and adjusted to the pace of the commercials - D* subs are very smart - we're experienced TV watchers. The HR20 fulfilled that job function - I could watch the show.)

How about some use of the message feature? "Your HR20 was updated and the following deficiencies have been addressed ...." "The following known deficiencies are surveryed to be solved by RBR/hard power cycle/disk reformat...."

Time for the suits to give the technical staff the breathing room they need to work the problem. Now it's on corporate to support them and us - was it Red Green who said that we're all in this together?


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Here is why I think they will get it right:
> Both HR20's I have... in my home, in normal usage, in primary usage... function as expected... That tells me, they "can" get it right. As they have..
> 
> They are now at a point, is that they have to eliminate the things that make it go wrong.


I would have said that too before 10b, 115, and 119. My system was pretty stable until those came along. If they kept releasing updates and it didn't break anything, than I'd be very confident that they would eventually get everyone's to be working 99.9% of the time as it should. BUT, I went from a very good system to one with a few problems (I still feel lucky because it's no where near as bad as some) so that has made my confindence level drop.

But then again, I know nothing about software development. Maybe that's par for the course to fix something that breaks something else


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> I hear you. For the first time in my nearly 10 years with D*, I did the same -- due both to recent D* issues (HR10 botched 6.3 upgrade, HR20 problems, awful SD quality for sports) as well as FIOS arriving in my neighborhood.
> 
> I sat back and took a long look at my priorities and options. Ultimately I went ahead and leased an HR20 to add to our DVR collection, thus commiting to stay another two years. I'm betting that D* can get the issues with MPEG4 and the HR20 resolved, and that we will in fact soon see an explosion in HD content -- sports being of particular importance in my case.
> 
> ...


I did the same here. After getting my HDTV I went and priced out my packages on both D* and Cablevision (E* is not an option, no YES Network, and FIOS is coming but not here yet). Turned out that over the 2 year commitment, Cable worked out $200 cheaper if I "leased" the HR20 at retail. So I called Customer Retention to see what they would do for me to keep me from defecting. Ultimately they gave me the $200 difference and 4 months of HD free and I took it. I'll sit here and go through the HR20 growing pains with the hope that they make good on their promises. If not, when FIOS arrives, I'll try and fight my way out of the committment. I really don't want to go through all that, so I have faith they will make good. I really like having D*


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Mine has been nearly flawless since I have had it. So I am pretty confident it can be close to perfect, whatever that might mean. I can see it being just as reliable as any TiVo I have ever owned.

I am much more concerned about DirecTV's complete inability to actually get a satellite dish installed these days. Having installations take 30,60,90 days is a bigger issue for me than anything i have experienced with the HR-20.

In fact my HR-20 has been getting a pretty good work out lately, and I have been extremely happy with it. I had a single issue with the old software, one issue shortly after upgrading to 15, and nothing since, now on 19. I realize people are having issues, but I can't base my perception on that, since I only have my own experiences to go on and it has been good so far, and given their commitment to keep patching and improving the software, I have no indications that things will not continue to improve for those having problems.

I know some people here want to erroneously hold out the fact that they have had a lot of patches/fixes/upgrades as some kind of bad thing, but in making a determination as to whether the HR20 will ever be "perfect", it can only be considered a positive towards reaching that goal.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Tom_S said:


> I am amazed that people experience *no* reboots of their TIVO units over the years. I have had three and they all experienced this from time to time.


Yeah I can't understand that to be honest. I own/owned at least 9 TiVos, and I can't think of a single one where I never had to reboot or didn't have it hang or have some kind of issue with it.

That being said, though, they have all been very reliable except for a few patches of bad software, or in one case a failing hard drive.

Of course my initial experience with the HR-20 is on par with that so far at the very least.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

marksman said:


> Yeah I can't understand that to be honest. I own/owned at least 9 TiVos, and I can't think of a single one where I never had to reboot or didn't have it hang or have some kind of issue with it.
> 
> That being said, though, they have all been very reliable except for a few patches of bad software, or in one case a failing hard drive.
> 
> Of course my initial experience with the HR-20 is on par with that so far at the very least.


When a tivo reboots, does it do it randomly? How can you tell? I know someone said you lose the 30 sec skip code, but I never did that, so maybe I just don't know that my Tivos have rebooted? But, it has never done it while playing and they've never froze, missed a recording (that I can tell) or refused to play something back. To me that is the bar that the HR20 has to meet. So far, it hasn't.


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## joejhawk (Oct 3, 2006)

marksman said:


> Yeah I can't understand that to be honest. I own/owned at least 9 TiVos, and I can't think of a single one where I never had to reboot or didn't have it hang or have some kind of issue with it.
> 
> That being said, though, they have all been very reliable except for a few patches of bad software, or in one case a failing hard drive.
> 
> Of course my initial experience with the HR-20 is on par with that so far at the very least.


My Tivos didn't even have a reset button and I never needed it. That should tell you something. D* not only gave the HR20 a reset button, it's on the front...and red! That says to me "Here, you're gonna need this."

I have confidence that they will get it right, but "perfect" is pretty strong language.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

So how much longer will they get it "Right" then?


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## DaHound (Nov 20, 2006)

brott said:


> The most likely cause of all of the flakiness is in the software. It is very unlikely that the components in the HR20 are "dying" at a higher rate than if the components were in another device. It is more likely that either environment or software is the root cause of each of the problems that have been reported here.


That doesn't make sense. Everyone running the same build is not seeing the same problems. Some don't see any, some see a few and others are seeing a lot. The only other common factor is the hardware.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

S. DiThomas said:


> Original DTivo owner here:
> 
> 1 reboot since 2002 I think when we got the box?
> 
> ...


Well, I can say that as well. Only a couple reboots on all my DirecTivo's since 2002/03. 
But what about before software version 2.5 of Tivo, before 2002. Not so much. It wasn't rebooting all the time, but lockups (Green Screen of Death anyone?) and reboots were par for the course in the early days of Tivo.

If you're going to compare the HR20 to DirecTivo for stability it would probably make more sense to compare it to the first year or two of DirecTivo. Not the mature *8 years old* software there is today.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, I can say that as well. Only a couple reboots on all my DirecTivo's since 2002/03.
> But what about before software version 2.5 of Tivo, before 2002. Not so much. It wasn't rebooting all the time, but lockups (Green Screen of Death anyone?) and reboots were par for the course in the early days of Tivo.
> 
> If you're going to compare the HR20 to DirecTivo for stability it would probably make more sense to compare it to the first year or two of DirecTivo. Not the mature *8 years old* software there is today.


Well, D* chose to no longer make DVRs w/ the mature software available, and replace it with their own. They thus set the bar high for themselves, and many of us are unwilling to cut them slack on the "it's new" argument.

If D* came out with this machine 8 years ago, I'd be much more patient and accepting of its flaws. But standards have changed, and D* needs to meet them.

(I didn't own a Tivo until 2003, so can't speak to that. I did, however, buy the first ReplayTV model available, and it was very problem-free.)


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

DaHound said:


> That doesn't make sense. Everyone running the same build is not seeing the same problems. Some don't see any, some see a few and others are seeing a lot. The only other common factor is the hardware.


Yes and no.

It's possible - in this case probable - for a piece of software to have many threads of execution. Think of a thread as a mini-program dedicated to one job or one class of jobs. You can't have them really run all at once - in general, a CPU does one thing at a time, and with many tasks to perform, takes turns among those tasks. So the overall design has to be such that some threads cannot be allowed to start until some other thread finishes or another is ready to begin or - I'm generalizing like mad - that sort of thing. This leads to very tricky coding for most programmers and, in my experience, even the ones good at it tend to dislike it because of the pressure it creates. It's all too easy to create an unintended situation where two threads are waiting for the other one to complete; or where thread A completed, sent its signal to that effect to thread B, but B wasn't ready to receive that signal, then waits forever for a signal that was already sent.

In general, those are called race conditions. They're frustrating as all h* to find and in practice, they are never where you expected to find them - or the code wouldn't have passed the (most basic) unit tests.

In our case, two identical systems - really identical, I'm talking ideal-world for all effects and purposes - in software and hardware can have two different behaviors due to frequency of use of features (therefore affecting which threads are active when), where a race condition is never seen in one but is in another. Or on a single unit, is intermittent.

This is not uncommon in complex systems.

Part of the frustration - for users trying to deal with it and s/w engineers trying to fix it - is that it takes a number of observables to explain the underlying cause. It may be (to stretch the example) that what caused a deficient behavior wasn't what you did at the time or just before that - it's the combination of the X things done leading up to the problem. Users don't see their own patterns of use (or they'd report it) and programmers don't see the the deficiency by post-mortum (or design review) or they'd just fix it in the first place.

The software staff - I'm guessing based on experience - has already questioned if they're chasing ghosts and it's the hardware. Once they've gone that route and it's turned out it was on their side, once too often, then management casts a deaf ear to hardware until it's convinced that the s/w is finally ok - again, in my experience.

Bottom line is that this is a hard row for the consumer. I have strong suspicions about some of the problems being strictly hardware, but right now, they're masked and jumbled in with the s/w problems.

In my ivory tower, there would be a magic way to know if you're having a hardware problem, and if so, you'd have your unit replaced pronto and - this is important for the s/w staff - all of your complaints would removed from their stack as don't cares. Chasing down architectural defects is hard enough without goose chases and I'd bet that they would love to *know* which are really software and which are hardware that they've erroneously convinced themselves are s/w's fault.

Thanks for bandwidth and brainwidth, hope this is somehow helpful .....


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Well, the DirecTivo might not have locked-up in the conventional sense. But, I surely did not like how it would hold you hostage for minutes at a time while scheduling a recording or especially reordering season passes. The HR20 is light years better in that regard.

And the guide in the TIVO was always pathetically slow. Anybody who says otherwise is a liar. I am very happy with the HR20 and I do expect it to improve continually from here on out.

It's a shame they went with TIVO to begin with. I guess they needed something out quickly and brought in a vendor to do the programming. Otherwise they would have something mature at this point as well.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

DaHound said:


> That doesn't make sense. Everyone running the same build is not seeing the same problems. Some don't see any, some see a few and others are seeing a lot. The only other common factor is the hardware.


You could be more wrong, but not much.

Think "interaction" and it will become more clear to you. It is easily demonstrable that with identical hardware and firmware, usage patterns could create hundreds of bugs if there are problems in the software. Those problems only present when certain "conditions" are there. Those conditions are settings and keystrokes. Lots of variables to consider, even if the hardware and firmware are identical.

That is not to say there couldn't be a hardware problem with any particular box. It is to say, however, that all of the bugs that I have seen so far (short of a bad tuner or a failed hard drive), could easily be code problems triggered by that particular users configuration/settings and the "activities" they have their HR20 perform.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

macEarl said:


> Thanks for bandwidth and brainwidth, hope this is somehow helpful .....


macEarl - most excellent post.


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## jmodry (Jan 18, 2007)

I'm amazed that there are HR20's that record everything with no issues. Mine records virtually nothing. The only time it does seem to record is within a couple hours of a RBR.

This is the second HR20 I have used, both have the same problems. D* was pretty quick to send me a new one upon hearing my complaints. Do you think that was a one time offer? Or, do you think I can keep having them send me new ones until I get lucky and find one that works?

thanks


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

jmodry said:


> I'm amazed that there are HR20's that record everything with no issues. Mine records virtually nothing. The only time it does seem to record is within a couple hours of a RBR.
> 
> This is the second HR20 I have used, both have the same problems. D* was pretty quick to send me a new one upon hearing my complaints. Do you think that was a one time offer? Or, do you think I can keep having them send me new ones until I get lucky and find one that works?
> 
> thanks


if you have that many problems I'd at least have them send a tech out to investigate... then a new box...


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

brott said:


> macEarl - most excellent post.


<bows> Many thanks - if I can in any way repay by helping in return any/all of you who have helped me without knowing it, my day is made.


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