# Multiple 622 upgrades/rebates allowed???



## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

It sure would be nice to know if Dish is going to allow those of us with multiple 921s/942s or even a 811 & 921/942 mix to get multiple 622 upgrades/rebates come 4/1. Ideally I think Dish should allow us to at least get one at $99 and additional ones at $299 but it would be really nice if Dish allowed us to get as many as we currently have activated. This would prevent the flood of 921/942 onto ebay costing Dish a ton (i.e. people buying a used 921/942 just to get the $200 rebate since they are not going to be worth much more than that anyway). I can't believe Dish has not made a decision about this at this point so why are they keeping it a secret? But then again I am talking about Dish so they may just make the decision at 5pm on March 31st!!!

Either way it would be great if Dish let us know so we can make a decision as to what to do. I have a 301, or 2 508s, I could "upgrade" right now for a 622 for $299 and not have to wait until 4/1 IF I am only going to get 1 rebate anyway.

Ideally I would like to upgrade both 508s to leased 622s (at $299 each) and both 921s to leased 622s (at $99 each) but since Dish has their stupid 4 leased tuner restriction I cannot do this. I would have to purchase 2 of the 622s for $1300-1600 plus lease 2 at the $99 + $99 or $99 + $299 for a total of $1498-1998 not the $796 it SHOULD BE!!!:nono2:


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

I would like to upgrade one 510 now at $299 and my 921 after 4/1 at $99. It this possible? I don't think I would be over the 4 leased tuner restriction because the OTA tuners don't count, right?


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

lujan said:


> I would like to upgrade one 510 now at $299 and my 921 after 4/1 at $99. It this possible? I don't think I would be over the 4 leased tuner restriction because the OTA tuners don't count, right?


Correct OTA tuners do not count so you would be at 4 tuners with 2 leased 622s, which is the limit. BUT the question has yet to be answered IF you can get 2 leased 622s at the $99 or $299 price. I have asked several CSR supervisors and an Audit Team supervisor and no one has an answer. They all say I should check back closer to 4/1 to see if there is any more info available.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

A good answer -- since the rebate rules have not been written yet.

It's nice to get a CSR that doesn't try to preguess the truth.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

April 1 is a rebate offer. It is a new program. E* customers are allowed to have, I think, up to four leased receivers. Like JL says the rules are not written yet, but I have confidence that 921/942 possessors will have success with the offer, depending on how many receivers are currently leased and of course their track record for credit issues.


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

James Long said:


> A good answer -- since the rebate rules have not been written yet.
> 
> It's nice to get a CSR that doesn't try to preguess the truth.


But this is happening now with people upgrading from the 811 to the 211 and then still have a 921 or 942 that they want to upgrade to the 622 come 4/1. Without a decision already made Dish is just setting themselves up for a major problem with alot of unhappy customers.

For example, if I had an 811 (which IMHO is a waste of $$$ since I am addictted to DVR) and a 942 and wanted to do the 211 and then the 622 upgrade. I call today to do the 211 upgrade for $49 and am happy...for now. Then 4/1 comes along and I call in to upgrade my 942 to the 622 for $99 but am told that I cannot because I already took advantage of the upgrade offer with the 211. NOW I am POed since I in effect lost $150 ($200 rebate for the 942 upgrade - the $50 "rebate"/price reduction for the 811 to 211 upgrade). If Dish had announced this decison before 2/1 then I would have decided to hold off and just do the 622 upgrade and lease or purchase the 211.

There are ALOT of customers in this position as well as those of us with 2 or more 921/942s. It just doesn't make good business sense to NOT have this policy decided and known by 2/1 NOT 4/1.


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

boylehome said:


> April 1 is a rebate offer. It is a new program. E* customers are allowed to have, I think, up to four leased receivers. Like JL says the rules are not written yet, but I have confidence that 921/942 possessors will have success with the offer, depending on how many receivers are currently leased and of course their track record for credit issues.


They are only allowed 4 leased TUNERS. Which means a dual tuner receiver counts as 2 of these tuners which means you can only lease 2 dual tuner receivers. Whereas a single tuner receiver obviously counts as 1 tuner and then you can lease 4 of them IF you qualify (i.e. pass the credit check). I would not have as much of an issue of they allowed 4 leased receivers.

I still fail to understand this limit...THERE IS NO RATIONAL REASON FOR IT. If a customer can qualify for the lease of more than 2 receivers then we should be allowed to lease them. If they cannot qualify then don't lease them to them. This is just basic business sense...Business Leasing 101. Dish requires a credit check for the lease anyway so it would not be any more work or expense for them to allow more leased receivers.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Alpaca Bill said:


> They are only allowed 4 leased TUNERS. Which means a dual tuner receiver counts as 2 of these tuners which means you can only lease 2 dual tuner receivers. Whereas a single tuner receiver obviously counts as 1 tuner and then you can lease 4 of them IF you qualify (i.e. pass the credit check). I would not have as much of an issue of they allowed 4 leased receivers.
> 
> I still fail to understand this limit...THERE IS NO RATIONAL REASON FOR IT. If a customer can qualify for the lease of more than 2 receivers then we should be allowed to lease them. If they cannot qualify then don't lease them to them. This is just basic business sense...Business Leasing 101. Dish requires a credit check for the lease anyway so it would not be any more work or expense for them to allow more leased receivers.


Thanks for the dual tuner single tuner rule. I didn't have a clue. I agree with you. That is strict. So is the max. 6 receiver rule. If a person wants a dedicated receiver in every room or several in receivers in one room, they should see it as a plus, more revenue for them.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

At $6.99 per DVR it could add up for E*, but I suppose they would rather have those 622's making $100 per month in individual homes than making $12.99 per month in a home already paying $100 per month.


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## Grumpy Old Man (Feb 3, 2006)

Let me get this straight. I can get a 211 now for $49.00 by turning in one of my receivers. Then April 1st. get the 622 for $99.00. 
I was going to order the 622 tonight & the CSR asked me if I wanted to wait to get $200.00 rebate offer. I said yes as I had not heard of this offer. Is any of these offers posted on their website?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The $200 rebate is not (as it is NOT being offered until April 1st).
If you go into "My Account" on their website you should see the current offers ($49 ViP-211 or $299 ViP-622).


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

James Long said:


> At $6.99 per DVR it could add up for E*, but I suppose they would rather have those 622's making $100 per month in individual homes than making $12.99 per month in a home already paying $100 per month.


That is extremely logical but a $100 per month in individual homes plus added $6.99 fees makes a louder CHING CHING on the money machine.


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## KingLoop (Mar 3, 2005)

Here's what I know. As is stands now, a customer can only _LEASE_ one 622. Not 2 of them, so that point is moot. The most a customer could _LEASE_ is one 622 and two 211s. A customer can only upgrade 1 receiver at a time, to a ViP. For anything else an exception through the executive office would need to be made. A standard CSR Supervisor could not make the exception.


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

KingLoop said:


> Here's what I know. As is stands now, a customer can only _LEASE_ one 622. Not 2 of them, so that point is moot. The most a customer could _LEASE_ is one 622 and two 211s. A customer can only upgrade 1 receiver at a time, to a ViP. For anything else an exception through the executive office would need to be made. A standard CSR Supervisor could not make the exception.


Unless you are in the inner circle at E* why is your info any more reliable than anyone else's?

One of the people I spoke to at Dish was the #2 person in the RATS. She did not even know the answer to the multiple question. It was her opinion that we would be allowed to upgrade 2 921/942s to 2 622s but she stressed it was only her opinion not company policy.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

KingLoop said:


> Here's what I know. As is stands now, a customer can only _LEASE_ one 622. Not 2 of them, so that point is moot. The most a customer could _LEASE_ is one 622 and two 211s. A customer can only upgrade 1 receiver at a time, to a ViP. For anything else an exception through the executive office would need to be made. A standard CSR Supervisor could not make the exception.


I just finished reading the promotion agreement, "Eligibility." You are 100% correct, only 1 model vip622 receiver per account. It also provides E* discretion, "without limitation" the number of receivers to be provided clause.

It will be interesting to see how things actually pan out on and after April 1.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

boylehome said:


> That is extremely logical but a $100 per month in individual homes plus added $6.99 fees makes a louder CHING CHING on the money machine.


Only if you lose people if you don't offer the 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th receiver.

Think about it: I have 10 receivers to lease for $6.00 per month.
Would I rather put them in 10 different homes that pay me $100 each ($1000) or one home that pays me $100 + 9*$6 for each extra receiver ($154)?

Gross $1000 or $154 on the same receivers each month. The choice is clear.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Grumpy Old Man said:


> Let me get this straight. I can get a 211 now for $49.00 by turning in one of my receivers. Then April 1st. get the 622 for $99.00.
> I was going to order the 622 tonight & the CSR asked me if I wanted to wait to get $200.00 rebate offer. I said yes as I had not heard of this offer. Is any of these offers posted on their website?


also, you have to already have a 921 or 942, the $99 rebate isn't for just anyone, only for old subs with 921's/942's.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

James Long said:


> Only if you lose people if you don't offer the 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th receiver.
> 
> Think about it: I have 10 receivers to lease for $6.00 per month.
> Would I rather put them in 10 different homes that pay me $100 each ($1000) or one home that pays me $100 + 9*$6 for each extra receiver ($154)?
> ...


JL, please don't take offense, I do see your point of view and I conclude that you always right! Chime in if I'm incorret. 

With your computations it maybe the best resolve is limit one receive per customer. Supply and demand is a concern. So if they have 72 million receivers and 12 million customers there is potential for bigger profits if each customer uses 6 receivers. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges? To advocate your philosophy, if a customer has more than six receivers, there may be a shortage thus losing potential new customers.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

logically, that would be a good analogy, except any company with 72 million receivers and only 12 million subs would be out of business by next week if they didn't get those 72 sold really quick  

Think like this: 12 million subs, 12 million receivers equals maximum profits in a lease-only environment. each lease that makes that ratio no longer 1:1 is loosing money for the company until that reciever has been in the field 3 to 5 years. people wanting 4 TV's of course are going to need 3 or 4 receivers, so they screw up this ratio. So to fix the ratio, you need to develop a 4 tuner box that is easy to wire up for a whole house. I'm sure such a beast is on the horizon, it cuts costs for the provider. 

In a lease-own environment, since the owned boxes make you a little bit of profit, and help reduce the costs of those you lease, sliding towards your 6:1 ratio is better, as long as it's still 1:1 leased to subs, and the rest is owned receivers. So it's not an easy balance. Look at how cable companies used to not even need a box to feed any number of TV's, but you needed the box for premium TV decoding. NO box overhead on the general customer. But now, with digital cable, they have to provide a box for every TV that wants digital picture, so they've had to pay out 4 or 5 years in advance for boxes before they'll recoup those costs. But they make so much money it doesn't hurt them. 

Sat companies don't have that kind of profit margin, so it's a lot harder to absorb those types of costs. Plus, cable doesn't have to pay to put birds in the air every few years. how much is the new E10 costing just to launch, not including it's R&D costs? So sats have to pay these large one time bills for new birds, while cable pays over the long haul for the local hubs and all that wiring in the ground and it's upkeep. So over a 10 year period, maybe cable pays out what Dish does for 1 bird? I'd actually be curious about that ratio, how many years of keeping the cable system running does it take to equal putting a bird in the sky?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

boylehome said:


> JL, please don't take offense, I do see your point of view and I conclude that you always right! Chime in if I'm incorret.


I'm either never right or always wrong, depending on who you ask. 

I believe the limits on number of 622s will be lifted once the initial rush to get *a* 622 to each customer who wants one is over. 10,000 this month 40,000 next month is still only a drop in the bucket. Not everyone wants a 622, but for those that do we have to learn to share and let all of our neighbors have one before we get two (or three or four).


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

I still think they should have had a 1 month window for existing HD DVR customers only to upgrade. Had they done that, this possible glitch would have shown up before they went public, and we wouldn't get as upset as those with no HD yet since we already have HD, other than not getting the new stations  

If I were running Dish, I'd have set aside a 622 to replace every 921/942 out there. I'd have offered a swap to all the customers, owned and leased (with a better deal for the owned, especially the 921 early adopters). If they wanted to hold onto the old unit as well, then fine, give them the 622 with the lease deal and let them pay for hte extra box each month, no biggie. You have to figure the people most wanting your new product are going to be those using your product now and who will be loosing out on new channels. Do this rollout over a month or two, use it to work out the kinks in the system, give the first 2 months at no costs as well, as a compensation for being final beta testers. Then do the full release after you'd had a month of two of your current subs making sure the product wasn't going to be another 921 debacle. 

blah, but I don't work for dish , oh well


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

James Long said:


> I'm either never right or always wrong, depending on who you ask.
> 
> I believe the limits on number of 622s will be lifted once the initial rush to get *a* 622 to each customer who wants one is over. 10,000 this month 40,000 next month is still only a drop in the bucket. Not everyone wants a 622, but for those that do we have to learn to share and let all of our neighbors have one before we get two (or three or four).


Or the option of purchasing if you don't want to wait and it looks like it is going to be a while even if purchased. Do you have any idea when the 222 will become available?



Rogueone said:


> logically, that would be a good analogy, except any company with 72 million receivers and only 12 million subs would be out of business by next week if they didn't get those 72 sold really quick


Agreed. Outside retail sales helps fill the void for lease limitiations and helps at reducing costs to E*.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Purchased or leased, the number we have is still only 50,000 by April 1st.

I have not heard a peep on a release date for the 222.


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

James Long said:


> Only if you lose people if you don't offer the 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th receiver.
> 
> Think about it: I have 10 receivers to lease for $6.00 per month.
> Would I rather put them in 10 different homes that pay me $100 each ($1000) or one home that pays me $100 + 9*$6 for each extra receiver ($154)?
> ...


This math is not what Dish would make their decision on, no business would. They are concerned with NET not GROSS. First of all your math of 9 x $6 would not be possible because Dish only allows 6 on an account, one of which is incl with the pkg. And as I have been told, we wanting more than even 4 are in the minority so you have to knock that number down to 2 or 3. You're also assuming the average 622 user has a bill this high which would equate to the Platinum w/o locals. So far I have seen very few doing this, most are going Gold or Silver, so right there your numbers are off. But no matter wether a customer leases 1 or 20 receivers this number does not change. You then start adding in the lease fees onto those accounts with multiples. Historically Dish breaks even with new customer promos. The same is true for cell companies. The reason they offer them is so that you will stay on past the promo period for a long time and that is where they make most of their money. They are taking a gamble that their customers won't cancel and switch by limiting the number of leased receivers. The potential is there that they could actually lose money thru churn due to this arbitrary limit.

Why not just make the deal one leased 622 upgrade is eligible for the $200 rebate but then the other would be available at $299. I could go for that since if I leased 4 622s, I would have to pay $996 (4 x $299 - $200). Compared to the 2 921s I bought for $1550 I would be ahead of the game. But the issue is bigger than just the 622. It has to do with the 4 leased tuner limit.

I also agree with the fact that Dish should have contacted each 921/942 owner and asked them if they wanted to upgrade to the 622 as a peace offering for all of the issues we have dealt with over the past 2 years. If we wanted to upgrade then they should have taken care of us first then offer them to others. This makes sense since it is these customers that Dish makes the most money with. You don't see many people with a 301 and a $85+ monthly bill.


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## KingLoop (Mar 3, 2005)

Alpaca Bill said:


> Unless you are in the inner circle at E* why is your info any more reliable than anyone else's?
> 
> One of the people I spoke to at Dish was the #2 person in the RATS. She did not even know the answer to the multiple question. It was her opinion that we would be allowed to upgrade 2 921/942s to 2 622s but she stressed it was only her opinion not company policy.


Well Bill, I certainly don't have to be in the inner circle to tell you that you can't _LEASE_ two 622s right now. If you read any of my posts you will see how often I am right. I don't post emphatic statements if I am not sure of their validity. If you get two 622s on lease let us all know.

JL,

I think the 222s won't be around until 3rd quarter if at all; but that is just conjecture.


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

KingLoop said:


> Well Bill, I certainly don't have to be in the inner circle to tell you that you can't _LEASE_ two 622s right now. If you read any of my posts you will see how often I am right. I don't post emphatic statements if I am not sure of their validity. If you get two 622s on lease let us all know.
> 
> JL,
> 
> I think the 222s won't be around until 3rd quarter if at all; but that is just conjecture.


I just wanted to know where you got your info. Have you tried to lease 2 622s and been denied? All I'm asking for is a source of your info. Without it is just conjecture.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Alpaca Bill said:


> I just wanted to know where you got your info. Have you tried to lease 2 622s and been denied? All I'm asking for is a source of your info. Without it is just conjecture.


Alpaca Bill, I would guess that KingLoop got his info. from the promotion agreement that is accessible on the E* web site. It is there for all to read if they want to. The agreement does allow some elbow room for change at E*'s desecration. If he didn't get it there, then he got it from somone who has the correct answers.


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## Jim Parker (Aug 12, 2003)

I wish Dish would make an official announcement on whether those of us who own our 921s have to return them for the $99 April 1st deal. If we can't lease two 622s, I will keep the 921. 

If we keep our 921s, I'll do the $99 deal. Advantage: save $200.

If Dish requires it back, I will trade in a mothballed 501 (which I also own, but am willing to give up) for a 622 under the $299 plan. If I knew for sure that Dish wants the 921, I would do this now. Advantage: get Voom sooner. 

Since it looks like most of the people who signed up for the 622 aren't going to get them until the latter part of February, I think that I am just going to wait and see what happens.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Alpaca Bill said:


> This math is not what Dish would make their decision on, no business would. They are concerned with NET not GROSS.


And how loud would you have screamed if I started making up net figures?  The gross is what we know.

If you honestly believe that E* nets more from one customer with two 622s than two customers with a 622 each you're off your llama. 

You want to do the math with smaller numbers? OK.
Four customers with a 622 each at $105 (Platinum HD w/locals) - $420 per month
One customer with four 622s at $123

240% more billed because they spread the 622's around.

{Since most of this thread has been general discussion it is now leaving the 622 area.}


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

James Long said:


> And how loud would you have screamed if I started making up net figures?  The gross is what we know.
> 
> If you honestly believe that E* nets more from one customer with two 622s than two customers with a 622 each you're off your llama.
> 
> ...


But that still isn't correct because each of those 4 customers costs Dish the same amount of overhead per account whereas the single customer with multiple receivers on one account is now generating a larger % of profit per extra receiver than the primary since the base costs are already taken care of with the initial pkg. Essentially the lease fee for each addt'l receiver is largely profit for Dish. It doesn't cost Dish one iota to mirror the programming onto multiple receivers but they charge $6/mo for it with HD receivers now....ALL PROFIT that is not made by them from a customer with only one receiver.

I never said it was more profitable but I don't think the difference is as large as you painted the picture.


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## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

James Long said:


> You want to do the math with smaller numbers? OK.
> Four customers with a 622 each at $105 (Platinum HD w/locals) - $420 per month
> One customer with four 622s at $123
> 
> 240% more billed because they spread the 622's around.


This math only works assuming that each of the four customers in case 1 are brand new subs. If they're first-time HD adopters who previously had service with E*, it breaks down more like this accounting for previous programming:

Four customers with a 622 each at $15 (Platinum HD w/locals less AEP w/locals) - $60/month

One customer with four 622s at $33 (Plat. HD/locals - AEP/locals + 3 lease fees) - $33/month

If the four customers were previous HD subs with an exisitng HD receiver, then we have this:

4 @ $5 (PlatHD/locals - AEP/locals and HDPak) - $20/month
1 @ $23 (PlatHD/locals - AEP/locals and HDPak + 3 lease fees) - $23/month

And if they previously had VOOM, then it gets even worse:

4 @ $0 (PlatHD/locals - AEP/locals and HDPak/VOOM) - $0/month
1 @ $18 (PlatHD/locals - AEP/locals and HDPak/VOOM + 3 lease fees) - $18/month

So, it depends on what type of sub is going to get the 4 receivers when they're distributed as 1 per sub. There are a lot of variables that can work out either way, but I think the only way that E* significantly benefits from limiting each sub to 1 receiver is if they're planning on earmarking a large portion of the available receivers to brand new subscribers. The level of programming can skew this comparison a bit as well. AEP/Platinum simply illustrates the other end of the spectrum better. Note that this is based on gross receipts as we have no way of knowing what E* pays for programming and thus no way of determining overhead on the programming charges.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Alpaca Bill said:


> But that still isn't correct because each of those 4 customers costs Dish the same amount of overhead per account whereas the single customer with multiple receivers on one account is now generating a larger % of profit per extra receiver than the primary since the base costs are already taken care of with the initial pkg. Essentially the lease fee for each addt'l receiver is largely profit for Dish. It doesn't cost Dish one iota to mirror the programming onto multiple receivers but they charge $6/mo for it with HD receivers now....ALL PROFIT that is not made by them from a customer with only one receiver.
> 
> I never said it was more profitable but I don't think the difference is as large as you painted the picture.


dude, you're nutz, you know that right? we still love ya though

User leases a 622 for $299. Dish sells the 622 at 649 or 699, not sure yet. so lets say cost is $550. That's still $250 dish has eaten out the door. At $6 per month, they get back $72 per year. That means it takes around 3.5 years to payback Dish for the cost of making the 622 and shipping it to you. so, they don't make any profit off the box for almost 4 years? seem reasonable to you? by the end of 4 years you're likely to dump the box and get another one. Now, if the cost of the box were only $300, that would be different, but even if it were $300 cost to build, you have to factor in then the costs of R&D and continued development. it's not an unreasonable charge, nor is it likely pure profit (and I only admit to likely as we don't know exactly the cost, but I'm thinking a lot closer to the $550 than the $300).

These boxes are more akin to game consoles than normal for profit items. it's likely that in general they each a little money per lease on the receiver unless you keep the receiver 3 or more years. Since pricing plans are the same regardless of buy/lease, obviously they've designed those with some amount of profit. The more boxes sold to new customers the more money off the packages. Eat $100 per box to make $300 over 2 years might be something along the lines of how they think. That's what sony and ms are doing, loose $200 or more per console but make it back in rights fees on the software. But they have no choice but to loose money on the hardware or they'd never sell enough of them to make it worthwhile. Some here. If the 622 were $1200, how many of us would think about getting it? After $1000 for the 921, I sure wouldn't be thinking about the 622 if not for it being $299 or $99 .


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

granted, that is throwing out lots of assumptions, but it is how certain business models work. probably it's more likely dish is trying to break even at the 18month point, which isn't too bad either. Oh, but also keep in mind, in that $299 622 fee (I forgot about this) you have to factor in the installation cost. So we are really paying a lot less for the hardware. If they give you a d1000 and run new cables and put in a new switch, it's conceivable the bill from the installer could be $300 to Dish and you might be getting the 622 for the cost of them getting you installed, while someone like me it'll only require dropping off the 622


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## kernekc (Dec 25, 2004)

Alpaca Bill said:


> I just wanted to know where you got your info. Have you tried to lease 2 622s and been denied? All I'm asking for is a source of your info. Without it is just conjecture.


I have tried. I called on 2/1 to trade in my 508 for a 622 ($299) and let the CSR know that I planned on calling 4/1 to trade in my 921 for $99. She let me know that only 1 622 could be leased. I asked if E* had any plans on changing this requirement and she said ..... (you guessed it) ..... she didn't know, but for now it's 1 622 per account. Maybe another CSR would tell me differently, but as for me .... I'll save a couple of $'s and wait till 4/1.


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

Rogueone said:


> User leases a 622 for $299. Dish sells the 622 at 649 or 699, not sure yet. so lets say cost is $550. That's still $250 dish has eaten out the door. At $6 per month, they get back $72 per year. That means it takes around 3.5 years to payback Dish for the cost of making the 622 and shipping it to you. so, they don't make any profit off the box for almost 4 years? seem reasonable to you? by the end of 4 years you're likely to dump the box and get another one. Now, if the cost of the box were only $300, that would be different, but even if it were $300 cost to build, you have to factor in then the costs of R&D and continued development. it's not an unreasonable charge, nor is it likely pure profit (and I only admit to likely as we don't know exactly the cost, but I'm thinking a lot closer to the $550 than the $300).


You actually think it cost Dish $550 even $300 to make this box? Now who is the one that is nuts?!?! Hardware is cheap. I would guess that the actual cost is more in the $100-150 range when you consider the buying power discounts they would get. I can go buy for RETAIL a 250GB HD for $110. You know Dish is getting a much better deal than this. So yes at $299 + $6/mo they are still making money.

Heck I can buy a full blown PC that can do a lot more than decode a sat signal for $300 (and that is retail on it not cost).


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## Alpaca Bill (Jun 17, 2005)

Rogueone said:


> granted, that is throwing out lots of assumptions, but it is how certain business models work. probably it's more likely dish is trying to break even at the 18month point, which isn't too bad either. Oh, but also keep in mind, in that $299 622 fee (I forgot about this) you have to factor in the installation cost. So we are really paying a lot less for the hardware. If they give you a d1000 and run new cables and put in a new switch, it's conceivable the bill from the installer could be $300 to Dish and you might be getting the 622 for the cost of them getting you installed, while someone like me it'll only require dropping off the 622


I can tell you that Dish does not just pay an installers invoice. The installers are given a set fee for the install. They know this when they sign the contract with Dish.

But when those of us with Dish1000s or 500/300 DP setups call up for the upgrade, it doesn't cost Dish a cent...more profit unless they decide to credit us for the $50 install portion of the upgrade offer. They have to have figured this and looked at the numbers to come up with the $299. I have a DP500 and a DP300 looking at 61.5 and these are run into 2 cascaded DP34s. There is no need to change anything for me unless Dish decides that all new HD channels will be on 129 but then I could just swing my 300 dish to look there.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Alpaca Bill said:


> You actually think it cost Dish $550 even $300 to make this box? Now who is the one that is nuts?!?! Hardware is cheap. I would guess that the actual cost is more in the $100-150 range when you consider the buying power discounts they would get. I can go buy for RETAIL a 250GB HD for $110. You know Dish is getting a much better deal than this. So yes at $299 + $6/mo they are still making money.
> 
> Heck I can buy a full blown PC that can do a lot more than decode a sat signal for $300 (and that is retail on it not cost).


it's $200 just for an HD tuner card like MyHD. If they cost $50 to make, that would still be $150 cost for a 622.

why would Dish get such great discounts? averaged over a year, how many hd's do you think they order a week? 2,000? 5,000? 10,000? Even at 2,000 a week you're talking they'd have to make 114,000 DVRs with 320gb drives. i just don't see the price being incredibly lower for bulks of a couple thousand a week. $5 or $10 per unit sure, but not $50 per unit. And to get to $90 cost, with the cheapest web price being $122(the seller might make $5 per), would probably take a discount over $20.

which gives me a thought. we all know the xbox360 at $400 is at least a couple hundred dollars below cost, as were the Xbox and PS2 before it. The 360 has a dvd, a dual core cpu, a nice gpu capable of 1080i, and a 20gb hd. The 622 has I would guess a lesser cpu, a 320gb hd (a lot more cost than a 20g and a dvd), 3 HD tuners, a video card capable of 2 sets of outputs, one which would be similar to the 360 (360 has a single output set of V/SVHS/RGB/HDMI), RF remote, and processes MPEG4. Both have custom OS's, USB I think, unique cases, etc. But MS expects to sell millions of 360s by june, at about a $200 loss per unit. yet you don't think a 622 would have costs similar to a 360 and it's production will number less than 1 million over it's lifetime of 4 or 5 years. If Dish sells 1 million 622's before the next gen HD dvr, the box would have to be a stellar hit. Dish expected 50,000 in the first 2 months yes? MS sold 650,000 360s in 2 months and is expecting roughly 5.5 mill by june (8 months). I doubt Dish expects to sell 50,000 622's in the first 3 months, but maybe 6. But that pace wouldn't keep up over time. But even if it did, to get to 1 million would take 10 years! And don't forgot, in the price of this HD receiver you have to cover the expense of items like the birds up there feeding us these HD signals. And that's a big hunk of change. So the "cost" isn't just the pure cost of manufacturing, it's also R&D of the 622, R&D of HD birds, launch of birds, FCC filings, customer support and training for for that unit, etc. Would it seem reasonable those costs could double the "cost" per unit?

so, no, I don't think it's logical to assume the cost of a 622 is less than $300 to $400. MS has much more buying power than Dish, and while the 360 is more complex in some parts, the 622 has many other parts which the 360 doesn't that would cause it's price to increase, likely at least to xbox1 levels which had a 6g hd as i recall. And those are $150 now and MS takes a bath on them still.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Alpaca Bill said:


> I can tell you that Dish does not just pay an installers invoice. The installers are given a set fee for the install. They know this when they sign the contract with Dish.
> 
> But when those of us with Dish1000s or 500/300 DP setups call up for the upgrade, it doesn't cost Dish a cent...more profit unless they decide to credit us for the $50 install portion of the upgrade offer. They have to have figured this and looked at the numbers to come up with the $299. I have a DP500 and a DP300 looking at 61.5 and these are run into 2 cascaded DP34s. There is no need to change anything for me unless Dish decides that all new HD channels will be on 129 but then I could just swing my 300 dish to look there.


true, the install is a flat fee, but dish is also covering all those Dish 1000's getting installed, and based on the charlie chat, I would guess 75 to 80% of those ordering a 211/622 would get a 1000. They didn't mention getting a 1000 or a second dish, and i recall a thread somewhere mentioned the FCC ruling said something about having to recieve all locals via 1 dish. maybe one of E10's jobs will be to provide that ability to those of us with 61.5 locals currently while 129 covers everyone else. So Dish seems to be expecting a lot of D1000 installs and that will cost them a lot of money. I'd say over the next 6 months more people will get 622's as first timers than there are current HD DVR subs. HD locals is what a lot of people have been waiting for, and you know a lot of people who were gonna buy in the past 6 months have been waiting on mpeg4 boxes. And with LCD/Plasma costs likely to drop in half by next Christmas, sales will only get better towards then (the major manufacturers have announced a doubling of plasma and lcd production by summer, and inventoies are already 50 to 70% overstocked according to the articles commenting on the production increases. This all leads to a severe price drop on the horizon)

I'd think the commit on these deals is 18 months and not 12 or 24 for a reason, as that is what it'll take for Dish to get back their investment and start making profits, and they expect us to be happy enough to not leave, and keep paying. If it only took 12, why not a 12 month lease, if it would take 24, they'd have made this 24 months. 18's an odd number, a fraction instead of a whole number (of years), so it seems unusual. And with the penalties for early disco etc., it all adds up to that is the breakeven point. I just don't see dish making the kinds of profits that Comcast and TW make from cable, or D* wouldn't have such a poor record making profits as was noted in a recent thread. but maybe I'm just clueless, who knows, I guess charlie does


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## LongDukDong (Nov 16, 2005)

Since I can't lease two 622's, I called Dish to see if I could lease one 622 and one 211. The CSR didn't seem to have a problem with this scenario until he put the order into the computer. His computer didn't allow him to complete the order. I was put on hold and when he came back, he explained the promotion only allows for one HD receiver lease per household. So I guess it is not just that you can't lease two 622's, you can't lease more than one of any HD receiver currently.


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## KingLoop (Mar 3, 2005)

LongDukDong said:


> Since I can't lease two 622's, I called Dish to see if I could lease one 622 and one 211. The CSR didn't seem to have a problem with this scenario until he put the order into the computer. His computer didn't allow him to complete the order. I was put on hold and when he came back, he explained the promotion only allows for one HD receiver lease per household. So I guess it is not just that you can't lease two 622's, you can't lease more than one of any HD receiver currently.


Oh no, you can lease one 622 and two 211s, you only can upgrade 1 at a time though. Also, you can only lease 4 tuners altogether. So, if you already lease some tuners, you would have to trade some in to bring it to only 4 tuners.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

LongDukDong said:


> Since I can't lease two 622's, I called Dish to see if I could lease one 622 and one 211. The CSR didn't seem to have a problem with this scenario until he put the order into the computer. His computer didn't allow him to complete the order. I was put on hold and when he came back, he explained the promotion only allows for one HD receiver lease per household. So I guess it is not just that you can't lease two 622's, you can't lease more than one of any HD receiver currently.


I haven't punched the buttons yet... but when I login to the Dish site and look at my upgrade options... It clearly says I am elligible to get a ViP211 and ViP622 if I want. Not so clear that I could get 2 of either OR 1 622 and 2 211s... but at least I can get 1 of each if I wanted.

Maybe the deal is different for each customer as to what they will allow you to have right now?


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## bear paws (Jan 11, 2006)

Sigh!!!!

The answer is to turn the whole DBS system over to the GOVERNMENT. 
Then all this will be run like a entitlement/ welfare program paid for by the "haves" for the benefit of the "wants". 
Then we will not have to worry our heads about profitability and service the private sector has to. 
They will perpetually be broke and service will be non-existant.

That is how I see some of the posts on this thread. The Idea that any business has to model their plan to satisfy a minority at its own jeopardy is preposterous.

A discussion is always good but only if all the factores are included. The idea of the cost/value of a 211 or 622 and the number of units per household is at best simplistic. The BIG picture of operating a company of the size of DISH does not revolve around so small a detail. As in every business large and small the overall profit is a balanceing act. If one unit of the company losses $$$ than another unit has to make up for the loss. Ergo,higher price for some other service/product.

IF all of the costs are too high to be competative in the free market then the choice is clear for both the CONSUMER and business.
Go elsewhere and VOOOM the doors.

Bear!


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## LongDukDong (Nov 16, 2005)

KingLoop,

So what you are saying is that after they install my 622, I can call Dish back and then order a 211 on a lease? I hope this is correct and there is not a waiting period before I can lease another HD receiver.


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## KingLoop (Mar 3, 2005)

I have never tried to do the dish'n it up program immediately following an upgrade, so that part I am not sure of. The only thing I can say is to try.


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## KingLoop (Mar 3, 2005)

LongDukDong said:


> KingLoop,
> 
> So what you are saying is that after they install my 622, I can call Dish back and then order a 211 on a lease? I hope this is correct and there is not a waiting period before I can lease another HD receiver.


I ran across the answer...



Q1 2006 DISH'N IT UP! Agreement said:


> *Eligibility.* Services and equipment must be ordered, installed, and activated between and including February 1, 2006 and April 30, 2006. This offer is limited to existing residential DISH Network customers who: (1) reside in the continental United States or Hawaii; (2) provide DISH Network with a valid major credit card number issued to the customer who signs this Agreement; and (3) receive credit approval. Standard professional installation of up to two tuners is included. In certain installations, additional equipment may be required and additional fees may apply. Maximum of one model ViP211 or 411 receiver per DISH?n It Up transaction. Maximum of four total leased tuners per account (including without limitation previously-leased equipment). Maximum of one model ViP622 DVR receiver per DISH?n It Up transaction. Only one participant is allowed per household. Participation is limited to one DISH?n It Up transaction in any twelve (12) month period. DISH Network shall determine eligibility for participation, including without limitation, the number and type of receivers and other equipment (if applicable) to be provided, in its sole discretion and reserves the right to deny eligibility for any reason.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

KL, where in the world are you finding these dishn it up agreement parts? I can't find it anywhere on the dish site


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## KingLoop (Mar 3, 2005)

I can't find them either....


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