# Had 921, now have HDTivo...(split from 921 forum)



## moviegoerman

Hello Everyone,

I've noticed this same bug when I tried to add any of my off air locals to my favorites in between my many attempts to make the 921 work at all (i.e. repeated reboots). This DVR has no support for off-air locals in my opinion.

I've also had trouble getting the list to update if I edit my sat channels in the list. It seems if you do a cold reboot, the system will re-load the channels into the list. They appear to be caching it, but not refreshing it when it changes.

The final straw was when I learned that there will be no program guide for OTA channels by Dish. After speaking with their technical support they say it will never be there. They only get the guide information from the digital stream of the local provider. There is no guide information in the digital broadcasts even in a major city like Atlanta! You'd think someone that invented this nifty feature not to distribute OTA guide information had to be someone that never planned on using it as a DVR. I might as well have just purchased a nice OTA tuner without a DVR. I get the same functionality. Oh wait; those receivers do have IPGs (Interactive Program Guides) with information.

After spending a good 2 thousand dollars on OTA antenna's and a brand new 921 (after it was FIXED), I've found the solution to my OTA issues!!! I spent another 2k installing the DirecTV Tivo HD10-250. I can't express my happiness to get a DVR that runs out of the box.

There are some growing pains switching over to DirecTV... The IPG is useless. It's way too slow. However, if you use the Tivo paradigm for recording shows, you don't use the IPG that often. It knows what you want and records it for you.

I'm probably one of the few customers running both providers. I find it hard to drop my dish because of the Adult content that you can only get on Dish Network. Comcast and DirecTV have very light programming for my tastes... Dish is the only provider with a monthly subscription to the level of adult programming I enjoy.

Overall, I use my DirecTV Tivo to record all of my normal shows via season passes (name based) recording. I use my 921 to browse the guide information quickly and watch my adult content. The 921 does come in handy for live HD, but it's useless for any OTA scheduled recording.

I do not expect Dish to ever fix the OTA issues. They would rather you hound your congressmen/women to get national feeds supported over Satellite. Since most of the HD content I want to watch is over the air (OTA), then OTA support was $4,000 worth it to get me there. I just wish I would have read a few of these threads sooner. I could have saved around $1,800 by not buying the Dish 921 BUG box and a new Dish Pro 4x4 switch. If you want OTA support, then I suggest you go buy a Tivo HD10-250. You won't be disappointed in the OTA support. Oh, yeah, it also has 2 tuners for OTA... I'm in heaven...

I'm wondering when Dish will get a clue and purchase rights to integrate a real DVR (i.e. TIVO) technology. They can never build it because of the patent infringement.

Until the next reboot....


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Brian,

Your post started out ok for this forum, but once you got into the Tivo speel, you violated the rules. Therefore, I'm splitting your post out into it's own thread in the Dish DVR forum.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

And regardless of what the tech told you, as of this morning, OTA guide data is still coming.


----------



## David_Levin

moviegoerman:

OTA guide data is (supposedly) coming. It's not yet clear if they are actually going to add the OTA channel guide to the stream, or just remap the local guide data already available (where HD doesn't always track SD, or may be problamatic if you're in a small market w/o LIL locals).

Since you've already set up your TiVo, you could sell the 921 and 4x4 switch, and pick up a 508 (without monthly fee). Then, sub just the "special" channels you want (slight extra fee without a package). Or, order the "special" programming as PPV on DirectTV.


----------



## Slordak

I suspect strongly that this feature (OTA guide data), much like 921 FireWire support and OpenTV, has been downgraded into the "not sufficiently compelling" category. Unfortunately, this is where all 921 "enhancements" have been relegated.

Pssst... Dish 921 OTA guide data is not coming.


----------



## moviegoerman

David,

I have a 721 too. I could just put my 921 and 4x4 on ebay. Believe me I'm still considering it. I also have someone that is using a 921 and might be interested in another discounted one. He doesn't use the favorites or OTA tuners. He just uses it for HD off the satellite.

I'm kinda torn, because the 921 does have it's good points. i.e. fast guide, nicer picture than my 721, larger storage than my 721, etc... But the purpose of it's purchase after waiting 2 years has fallen way short on delivery.

I would have hoped Mark would have left my message in the forum for others to see where it relates directly to solving the OTA problems, but I understand... I guess there's not a free speech place to post your comments unless it meets the, "don't suggest alternative solutions clause".

I have many good things to say about my 721. It worked great for the last few years. I just wished my 921 even came close to what my experience was with the 721. I expected many of the features of the 721 to be in the 921 with HD and OTA support. I find the two boxes work very differently (when the 921 works).

My original post didn't contain many of the issues I've found with the 921. I was only responding to the specific thread. Since this is now been moved to antoher thread I'll list some more issues I've had with the 921. I've lost programs on my 921, can't schedule a OTA recording using the IPG, can't use my favorites with OTA channels, PIP is half way supported (no HD), the small picture in the guide often goes black, skipping forward does a video jog instead of continuing smoothly. I've lost my cool when it comes to beta testing a $1,000 product. I thought I waited past the beta period, but I was wrong.

Initially I was disapointed in way Tivo did some things. The IPG was too slow, hard to navigate by date, no PIP, etc... That was because I was a heavy 721 user. After a week, I've grown more custom to letting the DVR manage my season passes and such. I can trust my Tivo to record shows. I always have to babysit my 921 and cross my fingers if it recorded the entire show. I will say, my 921 is starting to record more shows intact compared to when I first got it 2 weeks ago. I guess I would still be happy with my 921 if I felt there was going to be OTA functionality in the product. I don't think it's there today, and I don't think it will be there anytime soon. I'm tired of buying vaporware. It's not bad at the $200/$300 mark. It hurts when you start paying over $1,000 and can't return it.

Overall, I'm happy using both the 921 and my Tivo... I've got what I want using both. I use my Tivo for most of my recording and my 921 comes in handy as extra tuners for live TV or satellite recording... Don't get me wrong... If I find a way to replace my Dish content on DirecTV, then I'll be there. If Dish manages to pull a rabbit out of my 921, then I might consider dropping my DirecTV. However, it will be hard to let go of the nice Tivo features that the 921 will NEVER have. i.e. 2 OTA tuners, wishlists, season passes, etc.

Both receivers have benefits and drawbacks. I'm fortunate enough as a customer to be able to run both at the same time. You would think others might want to hear my feedback before they slap down $1,000+.

Until the next reboot...


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Slordak said:


> I suspect strongly that this feature (OTA guide data), much like 921 FireWire support and OpenTV, has been downgraded into the "not sufficiently compelling" category. Unfortunately, this is where all 921 "enhancements" have been relegated.
> 
> Pssst... Dish 921 OTA guide data is not coming.


Not the case...at least as of this morning.


----------



## TomCat

moviegoerman said:


> ...After spending a good 2 thousand dollars on OTA antenna's and a brand new 921 (after it was FIXED), ...I spent another 2k installing the DirecTV Tivo HD10-250. I can't express my happiness to get a DVR that runs out of the box.
> 
> ...


I'm confused. My OTA antenna cost me about $4.98. Last I heard, 921 and HD-DTivo prices were hovering around a grand. From this, one would assume that you spent that much on an antenna and another grand on the DTivo install. I am obviously missing something here, but you could pay me 4 grand and I couldn't for the life of me tell you what that might be.


----------



## mallu2u

So if I understand the issue here, 921 does not tune in OTA-antenna locals very well and also does not let you record from it? Or is it just the lack of guide that is an issue here?


----------



## imhammed

I have zero ota pvr problems on my 921. the timers fire and the reception is great. i live about 60 miles from Philly and pick-up all stations. I also get stations from Scranton which is 50 miles in opposite direction. I love my 921, recording soundstage in HD is fantastic. I just wish I could archive or increase storage space


----------



## bobl

I, like moviegoerman, am unhappy with the 921 and am in the process of switching to the HDTivo (I already have the box and my phase III dish will be here today). My primary unhappiness is with the lack of an OTA program guide and like others I don't trust Dish when they say an OTA program guide is coming. Dan Minnick said on the May Tech Chat that the guide would be out in June (oops, they failed to deliver on another promise). Renee Darby on the August Tech Chat said it was coming in mid-September but also said it would be like that already delivered on the 811. The 811 obviously doesn't have an OTA program guide and I believe she was referring to mapping the local channels (usually in the 8000's) down to the single digits as they are now on the 811 and the 721. Dish's primary software spokespeople clearly don't know what's going on when they make a statement like that made on the August Tech Chat. Either Renee was referring to something other than an OTA program guide or she doesn't even know that the 811 doesn't have this feature (BTW-the 811 obviously does need this feature).

I refuse to deal any longer (already with dish for over five years) with a company that makes promise after promise and then fails to deliver. Their lack of compentence relates to the delivery of new products which are always dramatically late and full of bugs to the promise of bug fixes and new features which also fail to meet expectations in the areas of timeliness and reliability. My timeliness expectations are always based on actual statements from Dish and they are never met meaning delays of not days or weeks but months and even years.

I appreciate all Mark is doing to keep people here informed about Dish's plans, however, I'd like to see him be a little more skeptical of what they say as Scott G. does over at the other place. Mark relays a lot of good information but unfortunately much of it turns out to be incorrect primarily in the area of delivery time.

Bob


----------



## Jerry 42

To Moviegoerman and all others -

Thank you for all the info in this thread. I have been "on the fence" about getting a 921. While I really want a 921 based on the postings I will still hold off for a while.

Mark Lamutt this type of info really does help non tech people like me make choices. I intend to stay with Dish (2 -811s & 2- 301s) but before going for a 921, I would like to hear it is working 100% as advertised including OTA guide and promosed name based recording. Please allow all info to be posted so we know the positives and negatives. 

Thanks


----------



## garypen

imhammed said:


> ...recording soundstage in HD is fantastic.


What the hell is a "recording soundstage"?


----------



## Cyclone

Soundstage is a PBS-HD concert series.


----------



## larrystotler

From the way some of you guys talk about E*, you would think that Bill Gates is the CEO


----------



## garypen

Cyclone said:


> Soundstage is a PBS-HD concert series.


Doh! Now I get it. Of course, it would have been easier, if he capitalized it as a proper noun.


----------



## moviegoerman

TomCat said:


> I'm confused. My OTA antenna cost me about $4.98. Last I heard, 921 and HD-DTivo prices were hovering around a grand. From this, one would assume that you spent that much on an antenna and another grand on the DTivo install. I am obviously missing something here, but you could pay me 4 grand and I couldn't for the life of me tell you what that might be.


Here's the breakdown of all my costs in installing a Dish Network 921 and then installing a DirecTV HR10-250 HD Tivo. I could do it much cheaper the 2nd time around... 

921 Installation costs...
---------------------------------------------------------------
08/07/2004 DISH NETWORK SATELLITE T $ 273.86 (4x4 switch & separators & diplexors)
08/08/2004 THE HOME DEPOT 111 $ 123.94 (cables & tools)
08/08/2004 WAL MART $ 252.70 (more cables & tools)
08/09/2004 PREMIER SATELLITE $1,051.58 (921)
08/09/2004 RADIO SHACK $ 127.76 (surge protectors, etc)
08/09/2004 PREMIER SATELLITE $ 335.00 (OTA antenna installed)
---------------------------------------------------------------
921 Install subtotal $2,164.84

HR10-250 Installation costs...
---------------------------------------------------------------
08/09/2004 CIRCUIT CITY $1,170.XX (10-250)
08/09/2004 BESTBUY $ 250.XX (triple LNB, reflector and cables/splitters, etc)
08/09/2004 THE HOME DEPOT $ 139.XX (a few more tools to run 2 more wires)
--------------------------------------------------------
10-250 HD Tivo Install subtotal $1,559.xx

--------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL for both units installed $3,723.xx
--------------------------------------------------------

Now, if you have the tools, cables, and everything you need, then it will be cheaper... At this point I can open up my own satellite installation company!

In terms of the OTA antenna: I wanted something that would work in the attic without having it on the outside of my house. I get 95% signal strength on all my stations. It's a "Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bow Antenna". The markup was from having a local satellite installer do half the work, but charged me for all of it. The deal was if they couldn't make it work, then I wouldn't have to pay for the 921... Needless to say, the OTA tunes into my local stations just fine.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Good god, Brian - you spent $515.xx in tools and cable? You could have picked up a professional compressions crimper, stripper, cable and ends for a quarter of that cost. 

What tools did you buy that cost you that much?


----------



## moviegoerman

mallu2u said:


> So if I understand the issue here, 921 does not tune in OTA-antenna locals very well and also does not let you record from it? Or is it just the lack of guide that is an issue here?


It's a lack of guide information. Lack of support for favorites. Just plain BUGGY! It does tune into the OTA stations just fine.

I also have a problem with the way they did the sub-channels in the guide. You can only see the main channel frequency. You have to select the channel to see a list of sub-channels. This is different from how you select a channel/sub-channel in the favorites (that don't work!). They are all listed sequentially in the favorite selection of the 921.

You won't notice this as a problem until you get guide information (if ever). If you do get guide information, then you won't be able to just scroll around and see what's on. You'll have to select on a channel, then you get to see the guide information for the sub-channel that has HDTV. It will be a big hassle... Very poor design and thought went into this feature.

The Tivo addresses this issue by listing the channels you have checked in your received channels list and puts them in the guide all sequentially. They are also channel mapped into the proper places. My 921 doesn't map my satellite local channels to the lower numbers like my 721 or my Tivo. Take another step back!

Now, if you happen to use timers to configure your system and the show never ever changes a timeslot, then it's manageable. Plan to step back 6+ years when you used to configure your old VCR to record a show. You have to know the channel, date, time and length of the show to record.

I tried to simplify this by creating a timer for a satellite channel that had my local shows in the guide. I then would edit the timer and change the channel to the OTA channel just to see if that would work. It also failed to record my show when I tried that approach!

I used to be able to set up the list of shows I wanted to record for the week with my 721. It was manageable, but took about 10-15 minutes every sunday night. Now, with my Tivo, I just look at the TODO list and it shows what is about to record for the week. It doesn't matter if the show keeps moving timeslots or repeats, etc... Like, Survivor, or other shows that tend to do in the middle of the season... That's what name based recording will get you. You'll spend more time watching TV than trying to figure out what is on and how to record it. Or worse, get upset about missing something you really wanted to see!


----------



## moviegoerman

Mark Lamutt said:


> Good god, Brian - you spent $515.xx in tools and cable? You could have picked up a professional compressions crimper, stripper, cable and ends for a quarter of that cost.
> 
> What tools did you buy that cost you that much?


Yeah, Mark I had to buy everything... Screwdrivers, drills, crimpers, cables, connectors, cable ties, etc. You name it, if there's a tool, I got it! LOL!

Much of the cost on the cabling for the 921 was trying to install the 4x4 switch with the separators and such to get it all running over one wire for my 921 and another wire for my 721. To me that was important...

There are so many short cables you need to get in order to hook up the diplexors, separators, splitters, power inserter, etc. Yeah, I got the crimpers too, but I did go overboard on buying many pre-made cables to save time... I was trying to get this thing running in a few hours. It cost more if you want it done faster, you get everything you think you'll need for the job.


----------



## garypen

Moviegoerman - I believe you could have saved a lot of money in both instances by ordering a basic receiver/antenna package, and getting the free install, antennas, and switches. Then, you would have only paid for the HD DVR.


----------



## Guest

Mark Lamutt said:


> Good god, Brian - you spent $515.xx in tools and cable? You could have picked up a professional compressions crimper, stripper, cable and ends for a quarter of that cost.
> 
> What tools did you buy that cost you that much?


P.T. Barnum said it best...


----------



## moviegoerman

garypen said:


> Moviegoerman - I believe you could have saved a lot of money in both instances by ordering a basic receiver/antenna package, and getting the free install, antennas, and switches. Then, you would have only paid for the HD DVR.


Gary, I haven't seen any packages for the 921 since I've been looking. You'd have to be a new customer for someone to even consider that probably.

The Tivo installation would have been possible to get a free install and reflector, but it didn't cost that much to add it (around $139). That's nothing to get it running as fast as I needed it. If I waited for someone else to install it, it might have taken weeks. Like the amount of time it would take to install comcast when I cancelled that order and ran out to get a 921.

My reason for having it installed quickly was to watch the Olympics in HD. I only had about 3 days to get it installed. After seeing the 921, I ran out and got a Tivo, It's been about a month now. I'm so very happy with my Tivo purchase. It does everything I want.

If you look at the cost for installing the 921 and the 4x4 switch, then most of the cost was for the 4x4 switch. The extra cables, shipping, the switch itself ran up the cost. The goal was to have the 721 and 921 running on the two wires I already had ran to the same room. I was trying to prevent from running additional wires.

If I would have pulled my 721 and dropped my 921 in, then it would have been much cheaper and faster for me to notice it was full of bugs. My future goal was to move any dual tuner to another room. That required the 4x4 switch to make it happen.

Sure, things could have been done a little cheaper, but I think this gets away from the main issue. The reason I added DirecTV and a 10-250 Tivo was because the 921 has no guide information and it was full of bugs.

I've been a dish customer for years. All I've ever heard from Dish is vapor promises. Even if you just pay for the 921 ($1000), I would be very upset with how it works. I still use my 921 for viewing my adult content and any extra shows where I need more than two tuners. Mostly it's used for OTA content, but I have to setup a manual tuner to get my OTA show recorded in HD. It's a major pain to use the 921 compared to the Tivo.

My overall view of Dish is disappointing because they fail to deliver quality products within a reasonable timeframe. I've been a patient customer for over 2 years waiting for a dual tuner HD DVR. I've waited from jumping onto HD because of all the problems I've seen with the previous boxes (i.e. 6000).

I have other co-workers in the same boat. We've moved to the Tivo and talk about how life is so much nicer. IT JUST WORKS!

If people want a real DVR, then my suggestion is now stronger with experience on the Tivo. You'll never get the Tivo features with any Dish product. If someone is wanting to solve their 921 bugs, get a Tivo. I'd be interested if there are more people that can do it after they sunk so much into the 921.

I know one other co-worker that's stuck on the 921 because he can't afford to get out of it. He's put so much into Dish. He has to listen about how things are so much better on the other side... I would be interested if any people on dish deciding to go to the 921 actually take my advise and do their research. I wonder how many people can really compare the 921 and the Tivo because of the cost.

I'm one of the few that can and did. That's why this thread is important for people making decisions. One other person that could afford to try both also agreed. I bet you would see more switch to the Tivo if they could afford to do it.

Until the next reboot or software patch...


----------



## bobl

moviegoerman,

I just made the same switch that you did after having Dish for over five years. Everything you say is true. I also got very tired of idle promises from Dish. It's particularly great to have an OTA program guide now for all of my local digital channels. I still don't really know if Dish is actually working on implementing this feature. They have said on Tech Chat's that they are but then they say the 811 already has it which it doesn't. Who knows what they're doing and fortunately I no longer care.

Bob


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Sigh...I'll say it again. Guide data is coming. First for the 811 in the very near future, and then for the 921 not very long after that. You can not believe it if you want to, but you'd be wrong. However, I do hope that you enjoy your Directv.


----------



## garypen

Uh huh. And the check is in the mail.


----------



## djlong

Mark - I think it's just the fact that E* has SO many broken promises in the past - advertised features that never get implemented, etc..

It generates an "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude. I know that my 4+ years with a Dishplayer have done that to me.


----------



## Alan Keith

Moviegoerman,

It is a good thing you saved your 921 so when the HDTIVO is being replaced for a defective HDMI port you will still have Hidef. If you get tired of those audio dropouts on HDNET you can use the 921 then also. Neither one of these boxes are worth 1000 bucks at the present time until they are both made reliable.


----------



## moviegoerman

Alan Keith said:


> Moviegoerman,
> 
> It is a good thing you saved your 921 so when the HDTIVO is being replaced for a defective HDMI port you will still have Hidef. If you get tired of those audio dropouts on HDNET you can use the 921 then also. Neither one of these boxes are worth 1000 bucks at the present time until they are both made reliable.


Actually, everything is working on my Tivo. The HDMI port issue is a problem with the new boxes from the poll/posts I've seen in the past. The posts I've seen say they get the box replaced and it's fine. It looks to be something where the card isn't properly seated or soldered to the board. I haven't seen any complaints about people not being able to get the problem resolved. I'm still waiting for my 921 to work! Below is the most current poll for the HDMI failures on the other forum:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183203

Hum... HDNet audio dropouts? You mean similar to the blackouts (audio and video) I've seen on the 921? The Tivo has been working great for me. I've seen the dropout thread on the other forum and the last information is they haven't seen anything in the last few weeks. Some have suggested it was something with HDNet/DirecTV or Tivo. Nobody really knows, but it seems issue is resolved for the people that were having the problem. I've had my Tivo for only a few weeks, so I probably missed this issue. Refer to the last posts on the below thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176849&perpage=20&pagenumber=16

I can understand the $1000 price because of the hardware. It's basically a full computer. I agree you just expect it to work for that price. I don't mind a few minor bugs that get addressed quickly. That is the nature of software. But major bugs and missing features should never happen. The consumer should never become the QA staff. I do have a problem where it takes weeks, months, or wait for the next generation to get the feature(s) you expected out of the box.

Not including major features such as a programming guide is just inexcusable. The Tivo has done everything as advertised from what I can tell. They aren't missing any features. It does more than my 921. I haven't missed any shows on my Tivo, but I lost a few shows on my 921. The Tivo records all my shows no matter what timeslot the show moves to. Again that is something you've been waiting for for years from Dish (i.e. name based recording). It takes an act of congress to get my 921 to record something OTA in HD without a guide.

There are things I would love to see in the Tivo. Like the new TivoToGo and Home Media Option features: The ability to archive the shows to a computer is something I want to do as a consumer that I lost when I went to a DVR. We can all wait forever for Dish to come out with that feature.

Tivo is working with content providers and the FCC in order to protect our consumer rights. FCC just approved Tivo to proceed at the end of August. Info link about TivoToGo is below:

http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=196

I've been tracking and using both boxes. The issues I have with the 921 are too many to list here. See top of the thread for more details. The Tivo with the few complaints I've seen wins hands down in usability and quality when you compare the two units.

Overall, We've waited years for these products. I remember wanting the 921 when I broke down and bought the new 721. That was 2 years ago. We do expect more as consumers even if we are the bleeding edge of this technology. Call it beta and I won't mind. Ship it as a finished product and I'll be upset. It's all level of expectations. We should expect more and we should get more. We definitely pay more by being the first.


----------



## RAD

Mark Lamutt said:


> Sigh...I'll say it again. Guide data is coming.


Is that before or after they enable the firewire/dishwire ports? Oh, I forgot they changed their mind on that one. That's one of the problems with E*, they sell you something with the promise that they'll add it in the future, problem is that sometimes the future doesn't happen. Yes, OTA guide data may be coming, with with E* you can't believe it until you actually see it.


----------



## tahoerob

I think I lucked out on some of my cost. I knew the 921 was coming out at beginning of 2004. So I jumped on the $150 6000 box w/ OTA module special in October 2003. I went through VP CSR. I got the lines & switches & LNBs for FREE. The 6000 went in same place as existing 501. I told Dish install guy that I need switches & LNB compatible for 921 setup (721 as example for him). Thus, when I got 921 in Jan. 04 ($999 + tax), all I had to do was disconnect 501 & 6000 (including inline AP adapter (also free)), connect 921, & call Dish CS for setup!!
I then SOLD 6000 on Ebay for $550!!!!!($400 profit toward cost of 921). 501 is a DHP rental & moved to rplace 301 in other room.

I did however spend $1000 on trying to get my roof antenna right by trial/error with antennas & installers!!


----------



## Cyclone

Well, I have finally saved enough for a 921. But I will wait for the OTA guide (to see how well Dish implements it) before taking any steps towards its purchasel I friend/client of mine just bought a HD Tivo and I wll be helping him install it later next week. If I like what I see, I might consider switching D*. 

I hate the idea of the TIVO's slow EPG, but I hear that this does bother its existing owners. I'll see how it impresses me in person before I commit to either one.


----------



## moviegoerman

Cyclone said:


> Well, I have finally saved enough for a 921. But I will wait for the OTA guide (to see how well Dish implements it) before taking any steps towards its purchasel I friend/client of mine just bought a HD Tivo and I wll be helping him install it later next week. If I like what I see, I might consider switching D*.
> 
> I hate the idea of the TIVO's slow EPG, but I hear that this does bother its existing owners. I'll see how it impresses me in person before I commit to either one.


Cyclone, Everyone agrees on the slow EPG (but you'll like the 14 days of information). It will take at least 24/48 hours to get the entire 14 days downloaded. The guide drove me nuts for the first few days. However, I've gotten used to how the Tivo is meant to be used. Don't get me wrong. I still want a fast EPG when I just want to browse around. Here are some hints that made my life easier as a 721/921 user:

First: Configure your received channels list and your favorite channels list. You can speed up the time it takes to view the guide if you have only the channels you really use. You'll go through a nice guided setup to configure the entire system, but expect to go back a few times to do some manual tweaking. Once it's done the standard configuration, then edit the received channels. You can uncheck the ones you don't ever watch. Edit the favorite channels and put only the very most popular channels. This allows you to have two sets of channel lists. Note: This is the most time consuming part that caused me grief at first. I haven't had to edit it much since my first week of use. Only when they added Bravo HD+. 

Second: Configure the season passes! You'll find that most of the shows you really want to see will be recorded as a season pass. You'll spend some time configuring it at first. Once it's configured, then it's very easy to manage. It took me about a week to let my Tivo settle down with all the shows I wanted to record, etc.

Third: Configure your wishlists. This allows the Tivo to know what type of shows you like. i.e. Age, HDTV, Languages, Movies, Sports, Comedies, Action, Adventure, First Run, Themes (Drama, Documentary, Reality-based, Science Fiction, etc).

You'll be able to do more sophisticated searches once you have those three parts of the system configured to your needs. You can do the following things to help find new shows to record:

1. Search by wishlist. I don't use this often, but I can see where it will come in handy. I let the system create suggestions and it will record shows for you.

2. Search future episodes of a season pass. This will allow you to see when the next shows will be recorded (or not). You're also able to configure the order of precedence of the season pass list. This will help you record the shows that are the most important.

3. Browse by time. This allows you to easily browse all channels, favorite channels, or categories (movies, sports, interests, lifestyles, news, themes, etc.). I usually browse my favorites if I'm scanning for a particular time/day of week across many channels. This groups everything faster than looking through the guide.

4. Browse by channel. I like this browse the most. I usually do know what channel I'm interested in viewing. I'm able to scanning for a particular time/day of week across many channels. This allows you to jump through day after day faster than looking through the guide.

5. Use the Tivo guide and not the default GRID guide. The Tivo guide gives you more to view per button push. You can see over 8 hours of programming per channel, but you have to go to a particular channel on the left of the list to see any programming on the right. You can't view programming across multiple channels. The browse by time is a better way to do that if you want to surf past the day you are on.

6. The INFO button when viewing the guide also allows you to change the day you are viewing. It isn't the best way to get to what you want, but sometimes if your in the guide, then it is faster than going through the menus to browse by time.

7. Browse by title. This should be very familiar, but you can also select the category for a shorter list to search by title.

8. You can also do a record time/channel if you really, really, really want to.

Once it's configured, the other thing I had to learn was how to manage conflicts. The conflict resolution could be improved, but the best way to manage it is to look at the 'View Recording History'. It's the first item on the 'To Do List'. You'll get familiar with those two items very quickly. They help show you what has been recorded, will be recorded, when it will be deleted, and more importantly WHY it won't record. If they're is a conflict it will show you in the recording history.

The other things that have made my life easier:

1. Configure your remote for 30 second skip. i.e. view a show, push Select, Play, Select, 3, 0, Select. Other codes can be found on Tivo sites that let you do more things.

2. Use the Thumbs Up/Down to help the Tivo learn what you like to watch and what you don't like. It will start recording shows for you automatically. Kinda scary at first, but it's really cool. You do have total control over what it records. You can prevent it from doing that if you want.

I will be very interested to see you and your friend's opinion after a week or so. If you have any friends that already have a 921, then let me know if they can also provide their own opinion using both units.

If you need any help, then add yourself to the 'HDTV TiVo Powered PVRs' forum on the 'http://www.tivocommunity.com' site. I'm there and many others will help answer any questions. I've found plenty of help through other members that have used Tivo for years. I still learn more about my Tivo every week. The more you know, the more you'll love... 

I'd like to see your feedback here either way. Add a thread with your experiences, etc if you find that it's worthy for consumers making a decision (921 or 10-250). There are pros/cons to each. I'm sure they will be glad to have another prospective.


----------



## jvelez67

Moviegoerman,

Have you had an opportunity to check the picture quality between the two receivers? (921 vs. HDTivo). I’m asking because some people are complaining of the HD Tivo having some type of “soft” picture quality when compared to some other receivers. (for example, the Sony HD200 and others). Have you been able to run, for example, the HDNet's test patterns between the two receivers and compare picture quality? 

Thank you!


----------



## moviegoerman

jvelez67 said:


> Moviegoerman,
> 
> Have you had an opportunity to check the picture quality between the two receivers? (921 vs. HDTivo). I'm asking because some people are complaining of the HD Tivo having some type of "soft" picture quality when compared to some other receivers. (for example, the Sony HD200 and others). Have you been able to run, for example, the HDNet's test patterns between the two receivers and compare picture quality?
> 
> Thank you!


Hum... Let me see if I can answer this one. It is very, very subjective for each user. It also depends if your comparing DVI or components on both units. It also depends on your TV and the settings you have for each input (i.e. brightness, contrast, color, tint, temperature, etc). I will do my best to explain my experience given all those parameters.

My current configuration is using my Onkyo to switch between the 10-250 and the 921 with a push of a button. It switches my video and audio at the same time. My audio is configured through optical connections on both units. I use component video that runs to one input on my Samsung DLP 50". I switch between the two at least once per day. I use DVI for my DVD player to get the best upsampled signal on the lower quality content. I display 1080i content from the 921 and the 10-250 all the time even if the original content is lower (I let the DVRs do the line doubling).

Since, I'm using the same input on the TV for both units I'm able to compare using the exact same TV settings. I've done some comparison between the DVI and components. That's another discussion. For me 1080i over component provides a very nice picture without copy protection worries in the future or expensive a/v equipment to switch between multiple devices.

I haven't looked at any of the HDNet test patterns for comparison. I could do that. I've set the 8am-8:10am recording on the Tivo for Monday morning using the guide. I've had to do a manual timer for the 921 because it doesn't show the test pattern in the guide even though it's there every 8am-8:10am. LOL! I'll have to update you with this information after I get both recorded.

As I sit, I'm comparing HDNet between the two with live TV. It's very very difficult for me to see any major differences between the two. My most concern is that one provider will re-compress the signal more than the other. This can happen with either provider. I expect more of this to be a problem as they add HD channels and don't have the bandwidth to support a full 1080i signal.

The thing I noticed most is the volume between the two units. They aren't at the same level. I've easily configured my a/v receiver's intellivolume to get the level sounding the same as I switch between them.

I'm very happy with the picture quality in HD on both units. The SD content seems a little more compressed on DirecTV when I first looked. Since, I've been using mostly OTA content or HD content, then I get great content with little compression.

Another friend I have said he noticed a major difference between the DirecTV SD and Dish SD content. He said after a week he is very happy with his Tivo. He doesn't notice a difference anymore. It doesn't become a significant factor unless you compare them 1-1 on SD, but HD seems to be fine for him. He doesn't have any complaints at this point. He's used to watching his Tivo since he dropped Dish after frustration of dealing with bugs on the 6000 and vapor promises.

Overall, I can't see a major issue with either unit in terms of picture quality. If there are any quality issues, then my complaints have been from the content providers and not the DVRs so far. I've seen some shows that were highly compressed or poorly transferred. Those are my problems with quality.


----------



## SimpleSimon

Brian - my EPG shows the HDNet test pattern on TUESDAY morning, not Monday.

And BTW, thank you for your reasoned, detailed, posts - you're an asset.


----------



## jvelez67

Wow, moviegoerman, thank you for that detailed answer. So, it seems that picture quality would not be an issue if someone should get the HD Tivo instead of the 921. I really needed this information. I’m still saving so I can buy one of those receivers and nothing seems to be holding me to E*. It is sad and ironic but your bad experience is helping some people to make an informed decision and not go through the same situation you had. That will be that last I needed after hanging like Spiderman from the roof trying to get my OTA antenna ready and not falling down and then later not being to watch or on some cases record anything.

Thanks again!!!


----------



## moviegoerman

I've looked at the 921 and the 10-250 from the recorded HDNet Test Pattern at 8:00-8:10am. Below is the Album I've shared with the pictures for comparison:

http://pak01.pictures.aol.com/NASAp...AlbumViewFromEmails&locale=en_US&locale=en_US

I still don't notice a significant difference when comparing the two units. If I get really picky, then the 921 actually seems not as sharp because the aspect seems to be stretched just a little larger compared to the 10-250 images.

The small stretching/placement is not from the settings of the television because they are using the same input. If I used different inputs and differently calibrated inputs, then that might produce a more equal comparision of the actual picture sharpness. However, the test is based on what each DVR is producing and the TV is calibrated with the defaults.

Image 4 (picture 7&8) shows the sharpness differences more clearly when I took close-up pictures of the "Time Remaining" text. If you look at the 'i' in the word "Time", then you can see the 921 has a very soft image with low contrast. The 10-250 image has a more distinct dot above the line in the 'i' character. The captured images still don't show as much compared to the naked eye, but I think it does show enough difference to explain my results.

If you're 10 feet away watching a show, then you really can't see a difference. You really have to get up close before you will notice anything. I don't suspect these differences suggest any significant variations in quality of the two DVRs for normal viewing.

I must repeat these tests are using the component outputs and the same TV input switched through my a/v receiver. DVI/HDMI results may be different.


----------



## jvelez67

Thank you again, moviegoerman. As you said, it is really hard to see any differences. What is really important here is that the HD Tivo is doing what it promised to do.


----------



## garypen

An excellent series of pics. To me, the 10-250 images look sharper to the naked eyethan the 921 images in pics 1-6. However, in pics 7-8, the diff is less noticable...to me.


----------



## RAD

OK, is the difference in the pictures due to the receiver or the DBS service?


----------



## moviegoerman

RAD said:


> OK, is the difference in the pictures due to the receiver or the DBS service?


It could be either, but the raw source from HDNet is the same.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

I can tell you that the raw source from HDNet looks much better than both, having seen it at the source.


----------



## Guest

Mark Lamutt said:


> I can tell you that the raw source from HDNet looks much better than both, having seen it at the source.


Marks comment above jogged my memory of first switching my father from C-band using a BUD (big ugly dish) to Dish Network SD. Immediately after installing the DISH network and before dismantling the C-band system, we had the opportunity to compare the C-Band Analog Video (only the audio was digital at that time via VideoCipher) to the DISH Network Digital SD on the same broadcast. Most of you are probably already aware of this, but there really was no comparison; the analog C-band video was dramatically sharper and clearer than the compressed DISH SD signal (we were viewing CNN Headline News, btw). Of course, the VideoCipher scheme could only support stereo audio meaning that it could not support anything like Dolby 5.1, so DISH (and DirectTv, for that matter) did have that going for it although I'm still amazed how few of DISH's SD channels (excluding movie channels) include anything other than standard two-channel PCM audio.

Subsequently, C-band implemented a digital video/audio transmission scheme called 4DTV. Here's my question(s):

Has anyone ever compared the 4DTV SD video with DISH or DirectTv SD to determine if either is better? If so, please let me know what you found.

Also, has anyone ever compared the 4DTV Hi-Def video with DISH or DirectTV Hi-Def video?


----------



## leszek

Mark Lamutt said:


> Sigh...I'll say it again. Guide data is coming. First for the 811 in the very near future, and then for the 921 not very long after that.


A month and a half later, still waiting...


----------



## DonLandis

I have seen no pictures that show a clear difference between the 921 and the 10-250.

Frankly, I see no difference between the two when each is set up properly and each is tuned to the same channel that is not tainted by some upstream limiting factor such as film grade. I did my comparisons using Discovery HD theater and HDNet channels. Only detectible differences are with the service on some channels. With DVI, both look the same, period, end of subject. With both using Component, both look the same period, end of subject. The 921 offers RGBHV, the 10-250 does not offer that output so no comparison possible.

Re the 10-250 HDMI output failure. Most of the issues reported were by people who don't have any background at board level repair. When I did my hard drive upgrade on the 10-250 I examined this particular problem and found a severe weak spot in the engineering of the 10-250 with respect to this issue. The daughter card for the HDMI plugs into the main board and is held in place in part by a metal (grounded) strap putting tension on the back of the daughter card. If this metal strap is not properly seated the card is stressed to one end and could lose connection, could become intermittant. I generated a bad HDMI output on my 10-250 and then put it back the way it is supposed to be. I do not have any problem with my HDMI output. I suspect that since most people won't attempt their own board level repair, and shouldn't, they become another statistic for this issue. From what I know about this, it is a poor;y design connection problem. No parts go bad, just that the daughter card comes lose from the main board.

There is no doubt that the HDTIVO offeres a far better product in a DVR for HDTV. Ironically, it has the capability to archive content by two methods, one being actually supported by TIVO, the hard drive swap. I use this now and it works very well. But the 921 has a supperior function for watching live TV and also recording the programs. The TIVO takes second place in this A-B shootout because the TIVO is just a hundred times slower with channel surfing response from the grid guide. 

I believe it is wrong to cite many of the bugs that were reported in each receiver from last summer and before. Many of these have been fixed. With the HDTIVO- I experienced loss of sound or intermittant sound on HDNet. It has now been fixed. With the 921, it would fail to record, crash and a multitude of other problems. I don't have any of these problems anymore. 

For the future, I know the OTA guide is coming, I suspect it will be no more accurate than the HDTIVO which has a varying accuracy from city to city. Unfortunately for me, Jacksonville offers a sad state of OTA guide accuracy on the HDTIVO and the VOOM system. PBS channel is NEVER what is listed in the guide, NEVER!. Other channels are fairly accurate, about 90% in prime time only and about 60% accurate during the day. I don't want to hear any of your opinions as to why. I work in broadcasting and know the reasons why. It has nothing to do with the guide services used by the different systems. It is strictly a local TV station issue and thus not going to be fixed nationwide until the FCC regulates these schedules the way they do the logs for what aired. Publishing a schedule of airings and not following it is not regulated. Submitting a log of what aired that didn't is a violation. Some stations don't care that their submissions for the schedule are not accurate. TIVO nor the 921 will ever get around that. So when the 921 finally gets OTA guide data, just so you know, in some cities, accuracy will be an issue and unless you have another guide service to comapre with most of you will be screaming that it doesn't work or is inaccurate. Personally, I'm not going to get excited over it. The real issue will be the frustration that will become obvious on all who have a single source, the 921, to see and it is not accurate, they won't know if it is the 921 bug or the local station that is at the root of the problem.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

leszek said:


> A month and a half later, still waiting...


 Well, as guide data just got here for the 811, the 921 is now not very far behind. I still don't think it's going to be in L189, but L190 should be promising.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Don, that's about the most impartial, unemotional and overall best comparison between the 921 and the 10-250 that I've ever read.


----------



## Hall

Just because you lacked the tools to do the original 921 installation, it's not "fair" to factor those costs in. If you had bought the HD-TiVo first, you would likely have bought the same tools.

Also, did you use *any* of those tools you originally bought when you installed the HD-TiVo ?? If the HD-TiVo connected to your surge suppressor ?? Is it using the OTA antenna ??


----------



## Tweeterhead

moviegoerman said:


> I use DVI for my DVD player to get the best upsampled signal on the lower quality content. I display 1080i content from the 921 and the 10-250 all the time even if the original content is lower (I let the DVRs do the line doubling).


Just a note: Your 921, 10-250 and the DVDHD931 should be set at 720p not 1080i if you want the best picture from your DLP. Sending it the 1080i source causes your monitor to down-convert the image since the monitor can only produce 720p. The more you convert the information the more you lower the quality.

Thanks for all the quality information


----------



## Tweeterhead

Mark Lamutt said:


> Don, that's about the most impartial, unemotional and overall best comparison between the 921 and the 10-250 that I've ever read.


Mark, Question!!! Do you have accesibility to Mark Sargeant at Dish Network? If so have him call Steve from his voicemails over the last couple weeks.

Thanks


----------

