# What Apple Does Right



## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

I just have to relate my good experiences with Apple. I bought my granddaughter an iPod touch for Christmas last year. Last week, she started complaining about the top-mounter power button not working. She left it with me so I could look into it and maybe have it fixed under warranty. I called Apple support, and although they told me they don't really offer phone assistance for iPods, the CSR agreed to try to help me.

He explained that sometimes dust would get into the button and it could be dislodged by pressing it hard and wiggling it around. I tried this, and it didn't work, so he suggested I take it to my local Apple store for help. After hanging up, I kept trying this trick just to see if I could get it working. I was holding the iPod in my right hand and pressing the button with my left. I guess I don't know my own strength because I ended up holding it so tightly in my right hand that I actually put enough pressure on it to crack the screen!

So, I took it to the Apple store as instructed and they replaced it for free, under warranty, right there on the spot. The guy helping me said that normally they charge for broken screens, but since he could see it wasn't an impact-related dropped, and that I was trying to fix the stuck power button problem, he'd handle it. Oh, and oddly enough, after sitting in the hot car all day, the power button started working.

Anyhow, it's _almost_ enough to make me want to convert from being a "PC". Just _almost[/], though. _


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

rudeney said:


> I just have to relate my good experiences with Apple. I bought my granddaughter an iPod touch for Christmas last year. Last week, she started complaining about the top-mounter power button not working. She left it with me so I could look into it and maybe have it fixed under warranty. I called Apple support, and although they told me they don't really offer phone assistance for iPods, the CSR agreed to try to help me.
> 
> He explained that sometimes dust would get into the button and it could be dislodged by pressing it hard and wiggling it around. I tried this, and it didn't work, so he suggested I take it to my local Apple store for help. After hanging up, I kept trying this trick just to see if I could get it working. I was holding the iPod in my right hand and pressing the button with my left. I guess I don't know my own strength because I ended up holding it so tightly in my right hand that I actually put enough pressure on it to crack the screen!
> 
> ...


_

Thanks for sharing. I have also had nothing but good experiences as well. Apple's prices may be inflated but I really don't mind since their customer service is better than other companies I have dealt with._


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Their support can be good, or annoying. I have had experiences both ways. Better than many other companies though.

For PCs, Lenovo support is superb as well.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Apple products are expensive (compared to similar products from other companies), but some of that money goes to pay for a higher level of support/service.

Folks who complain about poor service are often those who shop on price. Apple customers clearly don't put low prices as their first priority; they're willing to pay more for better service. It can be argued that a good percentage of the Mac computer user base *needs* better service, but that's another argument. The point is that Apple has shown that, yes, a percentage of the population *will* pay more for better service, and providing good service has long been one of Apple's primary strengths.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

It's nice to know that Apple's service is so good, but my experience so far tells me that I may never need to use it.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

bobnielsen said:


> It's nice to know that Apple's service is so good, but my experience so far tells me that I may never need to use it.


Actually, this is the third iPod I've had to get service on. The first one was a U2 Special Edition that wouldn't sync. After an hour on the phone with support, they replaced. Oh yeah, and that was another good experience - I had called on my cell phone and we got disconnected. The CSR actually looked up my home phone from my registration info and called me right back. We had another iPod, a Nano, that died and was also quickly replaced under warranty. I don't use Macs, so I have no experience there, but when I was at the store last night, there were about 20 people in queue at the "Genius Bar" for help with theirs. I overhead a young girl with the case on her macbook being cracked and the CSR told her it was likely because she was slamming the lid, but he said he'd replace it anyway.


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## tomkarl (Jan 6, 2009)

BattleZone said:


> Apple products are expensive (compared to similar products from other companies), but some of that money goes to pay for a higher level of support/service.
> 
> Folks who complain about poor service are often those who shop on price. Apple customers clearly don't put low prices as their first priority; they're willing to pay more for better service. It can be argued that a good percentage of the Mac computer user base *needs* better service, but that's another argument. The point is that Apple has shown that, yes, a percentage of the population *will* pay more for better service, and providing good service has long been one of Apple's primary strengths.


I don't believe that the higher prices are only tied to better support. I believe that they do better r&d so their products generally work well as advertised right out of the box.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

My experience has been that there products work better than advertised, thats why I think so many people get hooked.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

tomkarl said:


> I don't believe that the higher prices are only tied to better support. I believe that they do better r&d so their products generally work well as advertised right out of the box.


I don't want to get into an Apple vs. PC argument, but I do believe that Apple's computers are overpriced for what they are. The internal components they use are pretty much off-the-shelf technology. There's nothing special about the interaction between their O/S except it's all hand-picked for top performance with minimal problems (and of course that's a good thing).

You can buy a $500 dell that will run OS/X quite well (granted, illegally), yet a comparable Macbook costs 3x as much. So, where does the extra revenue go? I believe it's a split between marketing and support. Apple seems to do an exceptional job in both of these areas.


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## PatentBoy (Feb 14, 2007)

rudeney said:


> I don't want to get into an Apple vs. PC argument, but I do believe that Apple's computers are overpriced for what they are. The internal components they use are pretty much off-the-shelf technology. There's nothing special about the interaction between their O/S except it's all hand-picked for top performance with minimal problems (and of course that's a good thing).
> 
> You can buy a $500 dell that will run OS/X quite well (granted, illegally), yet a comparable Macbook costs 3x as much. So, where does the extra revenue go? I believe it's a split between marketing and support. Apple seems to do an exceptional job in both of these areas.


I'm a user of both PCs and Macs, but prefer Macs by a long shot...

Not all the parts are simply off-the-shelf. They did buy a semiconductor company last year... Plus, it is also how they are integrated (system design) which matters as well.

What $500 dell laptop uses a core 2 duo processor, let alone other equivalent grades of systems, e.g. graphics, as the $1000 macbook?

To me, Apple is about simplicity in design. They make products that are simple in appearance and in use, and they just work. They always integrate the latest technologies so your not obsolete within 6 months. They cost more because people are willing to pay the price for their products, that's it.

They have now surpassed Google in market cap in one of the worst economic times in history, with record earnings. I think they're doing something right...


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

PatentBoy said:


> I'm a user of both PCs and Macs, but prefer Macs by a long shot...
> 
> Not all the parts are simply off-the-shelf. They did buy a semiconductor company last year... Plus, it is also how they are integrated (system design) which matters as well.
> 
> ...


http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/First-Look/MacBook-Pro-15-Inch-Unibody/590/1

Sorry, the parts are parts you can get for any laptop.

Simplicity in design? And your talking hardware? How much more simple can Apple make a keyboard mouse and monitor?

Maybe you need a macbook wheel?

And a 9400m is crap. Even Intel GPUs come close to it.

But yeah, Apple is doing something to make sure they stay alive in a recession. They bleed their fans alive by buying overpriced Pcs.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

As far as anything coming close to your price, I went over to dell real quick...

A 13" macbook starts at $999, with a core 2, 2 gigs ram, 160 gig hdd, and a 9400m.

I got this from a vostro build (try it yourself):



> Vostro 1320 (13.3" Vostro)
> Subtotal $708
> 
> Get the tools you need to stay productive with Microsoft Word, Excel and Outlook! add now for only $159!
> ...


Thats a core 2 duo, 3 gigs ram, 250 gig hdd, and a 9300m gs. With 3 gigs ram that would perform better graphics wise, and in benches, a 9300m gs comes close to a 9400m.

And that is $708.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

In a nutshell:
Apple takes pride in what they do while Microsoft does not.



rudeney said:


> I don't want to get into an Apple vs. PC argument, but I do believe that Apple's computers are overpriced for what they are. The internal components they use are pretty much off-the-shelf technology. There's nothing special about the interaction between their O/S except it's all hand-picked for top performance with minimal problems (and of course that's a good thing).


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> In a nutshell:
> Apple takes pride in what they do while Microsoft does not.


Seriously, with comments like this, Mac fans wonder why people call them a cult?

Windows programmers take as much pride in what they do as anyone. But hey, if it makes you feel better to judge people ya don't know, well I guess I can't stop ya.

And while we are at it, what does apple take pride in? Their hardware gets MADE IN CHINA (Just like anything you buy today really), cpu made by intel, gpu by nvidia. All Apple really makes is the OS. So I guess they take more pride in their OS then big bad M$ eh?


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

We can go around in circles all day about this. The fact is that Apple has developed a customer base that enjoys their products and services. 

Sure, a Windows machine is less expensive but for me the operating system on a Mac performs better and I spend much less time and money fixing problems. I've had my iMac for almost 2 years and I have never had to re-load the operating system. It's just as fast now as it was 2 years ago when I opened the box. That alone for me is worth paying the extra 200-300 dollars on hardware. Plus the re-sale value is much higher if I should choose to "upgrade" to the latest Mac.

I have used Windows all the back to Windows 3.1. Every incarnation, generally speaking, worked but a pain the butt to keep updated and functioning property as compared to OSX on the Mac. 

You can compare pricing on hardware all day long but you can't ignore the multitude of people that are moving away from Windows. There is a reason. Apple provides a home computer that functions nicely and is supported well. 

Of course, most of us are not stupid and know the world around us. I currently have Windows XP running as a virtual machine on my Mac. I will be getting Windows 7 when released mainly just to play around and to use when needed.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

How about this?

Since for all practical purposes the hardware is the same (CPU, Graphics, HD, etc.), Apple needs to put up or shut up and release an OS to compete directly with Windows on the same hardware?

If the "inferior" os, aka Windows can run on "Apple" hardware, then it should be a snap for the "superior" os to run on common "PC" hardware.

So, I throw down the gaunlet to Mr Jobs. Put up or shut up.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Chris Blount said:


> You can compare pricing on hardware all day long but you can't ignore the multitude of people that are moving away from Windows. There is a reason. Apple provides a home computer that functions nicely and is supported well.












http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=11

Looks like the multitude of people are migrating from Xp to Vista... And soon 7.

If you want to talk about what Apple does right, bring the facts in please. I like the OS too, but multitudes aren't moving toward OSX.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

RobertE said:


> How about this?
> 
> Since for all practical purposes the hardware is the same (CPU, Graphics, HD, etc.), Apple needs to put up or shut up and release an OS to compete directly with Windows on the same hardware?
> 
> ...


I suspect that it will never happen because then Apple would have to deal with the same issues that plague Windows. That is, relying on hardware manufacturers to write drivers, which means losing control of their highly controlled OS environment. Not only that, they'd lose their large profit margin on hardware. Again, I don't begrudge them. In fact, I think they have a really smart marketing strategy,


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

rudeney said:


> I suspect that it will never happen because then Apple would have to deal with the same issues that plague Windows. That is, relying on hardware manufacturers to write drivers, which means losing control of their highly controlled OS environment. Not only that, they'd lose their large profit margin on hardware. Again, I don't begrudge them. In fact, I think they have a really smart marketing strategy,


Yes, Apple is quite smart at business. The main problem I think is, is that people think Apple is their friend, going up against the big bad M$.

Whats funny is that Apple has turned out to be the guys that they showed in their commercial during the 1984 super bowl, and the runner is not Apple. Their business policies are anything but user friendly.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

PatentBoy said:


> What $500 dell laptop uses a core 2 duo processor, let alone other equivalent grades of systems, e.g. graphics, as the $1000 macbook?


Well, not a Dell, but my new Gateway laptop has a core 2 duo processor, 4GB ram, 320GB HD, built in webcam, HDMI out and other things.

I paid $501.98 total for it less than 1 month ago.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm sure windows would be realy stable if you only ran it on one brand of equipment and only had 10% of the availible software too 
I know it runs geat for me.. I haven't reloaded a pc in years unless I was playing with different OS for fun.. my last couple laptops (between wife's, mine and work) ran better than 2 years with out ever doing anything to them.. one with XP is 4 years old on original load..


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

houskamp said:


> I'm sure windows would be realy stable if you only ran it on one brand of equipment and only had 10% of the availible software too
> I know it runs geat for me.. I haven't reloaded a pc in years unless I was playing with different OS for fun.. my last couple laptops (between wife's, mine and work) ran better than 2 years with out ever doing anything to them.. one with XP is 4 years old on original load..


This is the reason why Apple would never dare make OSX available to any PC, lest their OS become unstable.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Zellio said:


> This is the reason why Apple would never dare make OSX available to any PC, lest their OS become unstable.


I'm trying to figure out the point to this? It's like saying Amiga OS would be unstable on a PC. It wasn't made for that. A more up to date analogy would be like saying samsung would never dare let their OS run on a Nokia.

To say that it's inferior because they only let it be installed in a controled environment where it will work the way they designed it doesn't seem to be a good argument. Is their OS superior to Windows? Well that's up to each user and the application for the OS.

I don't use Mac but anyone who creates an OS that is specific to certain hardware is going to control that. It was not designed to be installed on other things. However computers are computers and eventually someone can get anything to work on something with enough know how.

Apple is simple and intuitive. Like them or not they have done a lot for the computing world and whether you choose to buy one or not your computer is better because they are around.

Apple is like DirecTV in their marketing as well. They don't want cheap customers. People who spend more money do so for different reasons but they will keep spending more money if you make them happy.

Anyways this argument gets about as tired as chevy vs ford or anything else out there. The real bottom line is neither one of them is better then the other if they are bought for the right reasons and the person is happy with it for their needs.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Shades228 said:


> I'm trying to figure out the point to this? It's like saying Amiga OS would be unstable on a PC. It wasn't made for that. A more up to date analogy would be like saying samsung would never dare let their OS run on a Nokia.
> 
> To say that it's inferior because they only let it be installed in a controled environment where it will work the way they designed it doesn't seem to be a good argument. Is their OS superior to Windows? Well that's up to each user and the application for the OS.
> 
> ...


Um, keeping your OS open to just a few small configurations has EVERYTHING to do with it!

If Apple opened their OS to the thousands, possibly millions of computer configs worldwide, they were suddenly be highly unstable. They have ease of use and security thru obscurity.

And comparing Apple to Directv is LUDICROUS since Directv is CHEAPER for large numbers of receivers! I would be paying alot more for 6 receivers on Dish... A better example is that Apple is like Bose. You can get far better sound equipment for much cheaper but some people would rather buy an inferior pretty package at super high prices.

You could also throw in Monster Cables, since like Apple, they use the same parts others have and then jack up the prices 10 fold.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Zellio said:


> Um, keeping your OS open to just a few small configurations has EVERYTHING to do with it!
> 
> If Apple opened their OS to the thousands, possibly millions of computer configs worldwide, they were suddenly be highly unstable. They have ease of use and security thru obscurity.
> 
> ...


I think what's bugging me the most about your line of thinking is that you are trying to convince Mac users that they have been ripped off and that Windows computers are a better value. Might as well quit now. Those who own Apple computers like them. Have you ever owned one yourself and used it for a long period of time? Probably not.

As I said before, I used Windows computers (and built them) for many years. I use them at work every day. Windows computers function and are useable for most people.

But, you might as well realize that not everyone thinks the same way you do. We all have our priorities and for some, getting the cheapest computer possible is not always the goal.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I use PC's at work and at home but I do own an Iphone and I have used Macs. Simply based on my few days of playing with a Mac I felt it was vastly superior to any of my own PC's. Everything that the Mac does worked properly the very first time, and even if one wants to banter about features the simple fact is that if a Mac has a feature it works as advertised without any fuss!

My statement of Pride is based on the fact that Microsoft releases any junk that they may make without considering the problems created for the end user, and they have come up with some pretty fantastic crap like Windows ME, Vista and BoB and while they do fix the products over a period of years (sometimes), it's very clear that they really don't care what they give the public, hence my statement that they Lack pride in their products.

Your statement about everything being made in China is true but you leave out one critical point and that is that the Chinese will make you anything you want and to just about any standard you want. Some of the best made equipment is made in China and also a lot of junk! Its typically the greed of the non Chinese companies that are involved that has given China such a bad reputation; do you really think those Toy companies did not know about the Lead paint? It was very interesting that after they blamed the Chinese manufacturers they then quietly withdrew the statement and later came out and apologized, I often wonder what kind of documents would have come to light had they not! 

As for Macs being made in China, its all about the Standards you set for the Chinese manufactorers and holding them to it. It may cost more but if you pay them more they can make some pretty good products. (I am refering to the assembly and craftmanship of Apple products) The OS is just another example of the pride Apple takes in making sure that they release a quality product.

I use a PC because of my companies total dependency on PC's and the fact that I have so much experience already invested in them, if not for this I would have personally switched to a Mac a long time ago. BTW the Iphone, I just love that thing, it's like a full blown computer in my pocket, it's one of the best purchases I made this year.



Zellio said:


> Seriously, with comments like this, Mac fans wonder why people call them a cult?
> 
> Windows programmers take as much pride in what they do as anyone. But hey, if it makes you feel better to judge people ya don't know, well I guess I can't stop ya.
> 
> And while we are at it, what does apple take pride in? Their hardware gets MADE IN CHINA (Just like anything you buy today really), cpu made by intel, gpu by nvidia. All Apple really makes is the OS. So I guess they take more pride in their OS then big bad M$ eh?


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Love 'em or hate 'em, love it or hate it, Apple also does one other thing right. Marketing.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> I use PC's at work and at home but I do own an Iphone and I have used Macs. Simply based on my few days of playing with a Mac I felt it was vastly superior to any of my own PC's. Everything that the Mac does worked properly the very first time, and even if one wants to banter about features the simple fact is that if a Mac has a feature it works as advertised without any fuss!
> 
> My statement of Pride is based on the fact that Microsoft releases any junk that they may make without considering the problems created for the end user, and they have come up with some pretty fantastic crap like Windows ME, Vista and BoB and while they do fix the products over a period of years (sometimes), it's very clear that they really don't care what they give the public, hence my statement that they Lack pride in their products.
> 
> ...


Standards you hold them up too? Greed? Try reading up on how chinese sweat shops are done. Chinese workers give THEMSELVES salmonella because they don't have good manufacturing!

Take off the Mac fanboy glasses and look up chinese work. None of it holds a candle to American or Japanese manufacturing.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> It's like saying Amiga OS would be unstable on a PC. It wasn't made for that.


Shades, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but Apple OS is basically Unix with a really nice GUI front-end. Apple's own hardware is Intel based, using the same bus architecture as PC's. Unix runs great on most any PC hardware, so it seems that Apple's OS should, too. In fact, there is an entire group of people who hack the Mac OS to run it on various PC hardware. I was able to install it on my Dell laptop and it works quite well. I don't use it; I just did it out of curiosity since I'd not had much hands-on time with Macs.



> To say that it's inferior because they only let it be installed in a controlled environment where it will work the way they designed it doesn't seem to be a good argument.


I agree. The benefit of the controlled hardware environment is that they eliminate most of the problems that plague Windows PC's with 3rd party drivers and unstable hardware. It definitely does not mean there is anything inferior about their products.

And now, back to the original topic. By tightly controlling the environment, both hardware and OS, they can provide better support. They don't need to blame problems on "the video card you bought last week". It's a nice model for the consumers who are willing to spend more. Whether you are buying an iPod or Mac, you definitely get what you pay for. Honestly, if I didn't need Windows for business applications, I'd probably have a Mac.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

I've seen good and bad in their support ifrom several personal experiences, but overall, I'd rate it a "B".

Hmmmm....maybe Apple support is fairly good because they get *alot* of practice?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

It is important to reiterate that in both instances offered by the OP, customer oriented service people appear to have stuck their necks out well beyond company policy to make the customer happy. Your mileage may vary.


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## tomkarl (Jan 6, 2009)

rudeney said:


> I suspect that it will never happen because then Apple would have to deal with the same issues that plague Windows. That is, relying on hardware manufacturers to write drivers, which means losing control of their highly controlled OS environment. Not only that, they'd lose their large profit margin on hardware. Again, I don't begrudge them. In fact, I think they have a really smart marketing strategy,


Ding ding! We have a winner. The plethora of windows hardware is its very downfall in terms of a smoothly running OS.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tomkarl said:


> Ding ding! We have a winner. The plethora of windows hardware is its very downfall in terms of a smoothly running OS.


Windows XP has been running extremely well for *many *years sir, so we know of what you speak (with forked tongue).

Perhaps you might want to consider upgrading your Windows v3.11 to see what they have done the past decade. :lol:

What Apple does right is marketing. Period.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

In 2006 I purchased three laptops. A Gateway for one daughter ($800.00), a Macbook for another ($1500.00) and a remanufactured Macbook Pro for me ($1500.00).

The Gateway is now has been dead for about a year now due to a virus even though it has always had antivirus on it. Both the Macs are going strong neither has antivirus. I would rather pay a little more for a longer life product and not have to pay for an antivirus subscription.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Phil T said:


> Both the Macs are going strong neither has antivirus. I would rather pay a little more for a longer life product and not have to pay for an antivirus subscription.


You are very, very lucky. Macs get viruses just like any other O/S, but because here are fewer Macs around, they don't spread as quickly. That is changing, though.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Phil T said:


> The Gateway is now has been dead for about a year now due to a virus even though it has always had antivirus on it. Both the Macs are going strong neither has antivirus. I would rather pay a little more for a longer life product and not have to pay for an antivirus subscription.


How can a virus kill a computer? A virus does nothing to the hardware. There's is no way a virus can kill a computer. Just reformat or do a destructive factory recovery.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Phil T said:


> In 2006 I purchased three laptops. A Gateway for one daughter ($800.00), a Macbook for another ($1500.00) and a remanufactured Macbook Pro for me ($1500.00).
> 
> The Gateway is now has been dead for about a year now due to a virus even though it has always had antivirus on it. Both the Macs are going strong neither has antivirus. I would rather pay a little more for a longer life product and not have to pay for an antivirus subscription.


This is one reason why I hate Mac ads.


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## crabtrp (Sep 23, 2006)

The MacBook Pro I purchased 2 years ago is still up and running, I am typing on it now. The family PC laptop being used at the time I purchased this one died, it's replacement subsequently died, it's replacement has died, it's replacement is still alive.

I purchased an original white Intel Macbook 13" when they first appeared in 2006, I still use it at work every day. I really do like their reliability.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Don't get me started talking about old computers! Other than a few fried motherboards, I've never "lost" a system due to viruses or O/S issues. And I have a hard time tossing out "perfectly good hardware".

My laptop is a three year old Dell Inspiron E1505. It started its life with Windows XP. It has been through several memory, hardware and O/S (including Vista) upgrades and is now on Win7 with a 500GB hard drive and 4GB of memory. It runs like a top and I often have a few VPC's fired up with various server and desktop systems running. My desktop is a home-brew that's almost three years and has run its entire life so far on Vista. I have an old AMD Athlon 64 machine that used to be my dagger's PC, but is now running Windows Server 2008 as my domain and home automation controller. My daughter has my old desktop, which is a P4 2ghz running Vista. She also has my old Dell laptop that is so outdated, it barely runs Windows XP and is maxed-out at 512MB of RAM. I even have an old IBM laptop around somewhere running the Mercedes-Benz Star Diagnostics on Win98 (only because it's not capable of handling XP).


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

rudeney said:


> Shades, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but Apple OS is basically Unix with a really nice GUI front-end. Apple's own hardware is Intel based, using the same bus architecture as PC's. Unix runs great on most any PC hardware, so it seems that Apple's OS should, too. In fact, there is an entire group of people who hack the Mac OS to run it on various PC hardware. I was able to install it on my Dell laptop and it works quite well. I don't use it; I just did it out of curiosity since I'd not had much hands-on time with Macs.


Yes with the move to Intel it made it easier to port over to an ibm clone. However sound and video while using name brand chipsets are regulated more. I guess a more correct version of what I was trying to say is that it's built for very proprietary equipment.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Failure is failure it can happen with anything. Knowing how to protect yourself is also part of it. You take someone who knows nothing and have them do things that are going to be detrimental to any computer like limewire and they will have issues. Both systems can have issues based on the user. It has nothing to do with the operating system. The fact that there are more virus's and malware written to infect MS products is only due to market share. If the mainstream OS was something else it would have the same issues.

So if stability is the argument then that would mean you're arguing vs a persons knowledge. Both OS are very stable if setup properly including hardware choices.


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## crabtrp (Sep 23, 2006)

If you prefer Microsoft - good for you. Me, I just prefer Apple.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

That's only part of the problem, the extremely sloppy way that Microsoft codes is an even bigger problem an example being the amount of backdoors they leave open every time they make a new OS or even a patch. Also the OS's DOS core was flawed from day one and MS just continued to build on it.

The old statement about the vast amount of hardware support being the problem is only partly true, if MS had opted to really have hardware meet stringent standards, they could have eliminated the problem but instead they just put up a little notice that says the Drivers are not Validated do you want to install anyway and that's done because MS cannot handle nor seems to be interested in validating all the drivers, so they just leave a loophole open.



tomkarl said:


> Ding ding! We have a winner. The plethora of windows hardware is its very downfall in terms of a smoothly running OS.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

You got this so wrong, it's not because of the prevalance of the OS, it's because back doors are always present in every Microsoft OS. Even when they are found, and a patch comes out that patch seems to close that hole and open another.



Shades228 said:


> It has nothing to do with the operating system. The fact that there are more virus's and malware written to infect MS products is only due to market share. If the mainstream OS was something else it would have the same issues.
> QUOTE]


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> That's only part of the problem, the extremely sloppy way that Microsoft codes is an even bigger problem an example being the amount of backdoors they leave open every time they make a new OS or even a patch. Also the OS's DOS core was flawed from day one and MS just continued to build on it.
> 
> The old statement about the vast amount of hardware support being the problem is only partly true, if MS had opted to really have hardware meet stringent standards, they could have eliminated the problem but instead they just put up a little notice that says the Drivers are not Validated do you want to install anyway and that's done because MS cannot handle nor seems to be interested in validating all the drivers, so they just leave a loophole open.


Yeah I'm sure you've coded. Explain how hackers at owntopwn like hacking your osx better?

It's always far easier to be a backseat coder. Esp. for an OS that is only safe and secure because it has 4% of the userbase.

Heres the real facts: Windows is as secure as any OS at first install. It's when you begin downloading 3rd party software that compromises the OS.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I remember when they use to call Japanese stuff junk and now people would rather buy Japanese equipment than buy American.

You still don't get it! When these countries first start out getting industrialized they are at the mercy of the foreign investors, they dictate how everything must be done, including quality control and price. After 20 or so years the country no longer gets dictated too and they start to do things the way they want to.
BTW you do know that most Japanese equipment is made in China! As I said before it's all a factor of what standards you want the Chinese to make things to. Give them good wages and good materials and they can make very good stuff.



Zellio said:


> Take off the Mac fanboy glasses and look up chinese work. None of it holds a candle to American or Japanese manufacturing.


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Chris Blount said:


> I think what's bugging me the most about your line of thinking is that you are trying to convince Mac users that they have been ripped off and that Windows computers are a better value. Might as well quit now. Those who own Apple computers like them. Have you ever owned one yourself and used it for a long period of time? Probably not.
> 
> As I said before, I used Windows computers (and built them) for many years. I use them at work every day. Windows computers function and are useable for most people.
> 
> But, you might as well realize that not everyone thinks the same way you do. We all have our priorities and for some, getting the cheapest computer possible is not always the goal.


Well considering I've bought pc parts by themselves since 1997, I'd imagine I'd know how much individual parts cost. People may like Apple yes or no, but I know a rip off when I see it.

The only thing that makes people think Apple is better is because they think Apple uses different parts. Nope, Apple uses parts other companies use, put it in a nice shell, sell it for alot more.

Just looking at a Mac Pro, I can get a 2.66 ghz nahelam (Which btw, the 2.66 is the core i7 920), 3 gigs ram, 640 gig hard drive, Nvidia gt 120.

Which is funny, since I just got a Core i7 920 ($200 from microcenter), a asus p6t, 6 gigs of ddr3 ram, and all for less then $700!

Hell, if you want to go into it further, I got my gtx 260 for $250, 1 tb samsung spinpoint for $89, 1tb wd mybook for $140, and Antec 900 for $110. That's less then $1300 for MORE things then I'd get with Apple for $2499!

And sorry to say, but it's the same parts.


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

And here's the problem I have with apple made stuff (It's the same issue I have with most every pre-built service, except Dell and HP). How the hell is 30 minutes to 2 hours of putting a pc together worth over $1000? I can put my pc together in 30 minutes, do I deserve a $2000 an hour salary?

In all honesty, anyone selling a service like that is a used car salesman.

And try and understand something. I'm not speaking as a Windows or PC fanboy. I'm speaking as a customer.

If Apple priced things like they gave a crap about customers I'd be all over them. I avoided the original Iphone, and got a Iphone 3g because a 16gig device was $299, which isn't bad in the cell phone world.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Actually I did spend 1 year coding ML and then 4 years doing VB for a large POS software project 

I cant see any point in trying to convince you that Windows security sucks, It's like trying to convince somebody that Water is Wet :lol: Your on your own Microsoft Planet and that must be a happy place for you, sorry to say but I don't think the vast majority of windows users would agree with you on how spectacular bug free and stable the Windows platform is.



Zellio said:


> Yeah I'm sure you've coded. Explain how hackers at owntopwn like hacking your osx better?
> 
> It's always far easier to be a backseat coder. Esp. for an OS that is only safe and secure because it has 4% of the userbase.
> 
> Heres the real facts: Windows is as secure as any OS at first install. It's when you begin downloading 3rd party software that compromises the OS.


----------



## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> That's only part of the problem, the extremely sloppy way that Microsoft codes is an even bigger problem an example being the amount of backdoors they leave open every time they make a new OS or even a patch. Also the OS's DOS core was flawed from day one and MS just continued to build on it.
> 
> The old statement about the vast amount of hardware support being the problem is only partly true, if MS had opted to really have hardware meet stringent standards, they could have eliminated the problem but instead they just put up a little notice that says the Drivers are not Validated do you want to install anyway and that's done because MS cannot handle nor seems to be interested in validating all the drivers, so they just leave a loophole open.


 DOS hasn't been the base since at least win 98.. DOS won't even read a NTFS file system much less run on one..


----------



## PatentBoy (Feb 14, 2007)

Zellio said:


> Well considering I've bought pc parts by themselves since 1997, I'd imagine I'd know how much individual parts cost. People may like Apple yes or no, but I know a rip off when I see it.
> 
> The only thing that makes people think Apple is better is because they think Apple uses different parts. Nope, Apple uses parts other companies use, put it in a nice shell, sell it for alot more.
> 
> ...


To me, the price of an Apple computer has little to do with the actual cost of the parts - As stated above, it's the price people are willing to pay for Apple's products. That's it...

If Apple couldn't sell their computers at the current price points, they would have to lower the prices. But if they are able to sell their computers and making a profit, why not? That's what a good business is supposed to do, right?


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> Actually I did spend 1 year coding ML and then 4 years doing VB for a large POS software project
> 
> I cant see any point in trying to convince you that Windows security sucks, It's like trying to convince somebody that Water is Wet :lol: Your on your own Microsoft Planet and that must be a happy place for you, sorry to say but I don't think the vast majority of windows users would agree with you on how spectacular bug free and stable the Windows platform is.


Visual Basic? And you expect that to mean anything? Come back with C++ before you start bragging, because VB is useless.

And like the person above said, Windows hasn't used Dos since 2000/Xp, when they replaced the home series with NT 4.1.

And you tell me I am 'on Microsoft Planet' when your example of a Microsoft OS is OUTDATED BY 10 YEARS?! And your arguing over a OUTDATED OS BY 10 YEARS not being secure?

What planet are you on?


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

When you can program in ML give me a call, because thats 10 times harder than C++

I like how the previous poster says DOS hasnt been used since Win98 and you say 2000/XP. Thats the problem, nobody is even sure if DOS has been removed from Vista or Win7. We only have MS word for it, and everyone knows that Microsofts word plus an empty sack is worth just the sack.

BTW why is MS so hated if they do such a good Job? And why is Apple so loved if they make crap products.



Zellio said:


> Visual Basic? And you expect that to mean anything? Come back with C++ before you start bragging, because VB is useless.
> 
> And like the person above said, Windows hasn't used Dos since 2000/Xp, when they replaced the home series with NT 4.1.


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> When you can program in ML give me a call, because thats 10 times harder than C++
> 
> I like how the previous poster says DOS hasnt been used since Win98 and you say 2000/XP. Thats the problem, nobody is even sure if DOS has been removed from Vista or Win7. We only have MS word for it and that plus an empty sack is worth the sack.
> 
> BTW why is MS so hated if they do such a good Job? And why is Apple so loved if they make crap products.


Um, no. Win 98/Me were the last users of the Dos/windows combo. Windows 2000/Xp used NT 4.1, and the user above wasn't counting ME.

Don't twist things around. Do you have anything useful to add to this topic? Because you are arguing security over outdated cores from 10 years ago.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> BTW why is MS so hated if they do such a good Job? And why is Apple so loved if they make crap products.


Isn't this a loaded question? First, if you take off your obvious fanboy googles, Microsoft isn't hated as much as you and your Mac friends think.

Second, couldn't you go and ask that question concerning anything?

'If Hitler was such a bad man, why was he loved by a majority of his people?'

'If God is fake why do people believe in him?'

Questions like that show your true colors. Honestly, if you like a product, thats a large difference from fanboyism. As much as you think I'm bashing Apple, I always try to stand for my rights as a consumer. I like anything if I'm treated right.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

The security still sucks, and let's not forget XP is from 2002 so it's 7 going on 8 years old and that's the OS that most people still use.

I am baffled at how you can bow down at the alter of Microsoft after they have released the most botched software in the history of the Planet and "borrowed" more ideas from other companies than anyone else. 
Even the Boss stays clear of the place and lets that Genius Ballmer run things :lol:

The new Boss in action:lol::lol:







Zellio said:


> Um, no. Win 98/Me were the last users of the Dos/windows combo. Windows 2000/Xp used NT 4.1, and the user above wasn't counting ME.
> 
> Don't twist things around. Do you have anything useful to add to this topic? Because you are arguing security over outdated cores from 10 years ago.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Who said God is Fake? Where the heck did you get that from?

You really are stretching for something to compare Microsoft with arent you

Somewhere between God and Hitler lies Microsoft :lol:



Zellio said:


> Isn't this a loaded question? First, if you take off your obvious fanboy googles, Microsoft isn't hated as much as you and your Mac friends think.
> 
> Second, couldn't you go and ask that question concerning anything?
> 
> ...


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> The security still sucks, and let's not forget XP is from 2002 so it's 7 going on 8 years old and that's the OS that most people still use.
> 
> I am baffled at how you can bow down at the alter of Microsoft after they have released the most botched software in the history of the Planet and "borrowed" more ideas from other companies than anyone else.
> Even the Boss stays clear of the place and lets that Genius Ballmer run things :lol:
> ...


...

Here Mac fanboy:

http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/pwn2own_winner_mac_os_x_is_less_secure_than_windows/

From the guy who hacked your 'secure' OSX in 11 seconds.

Stop blabbing about fanboy crap and explain reality.


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> Who said God is Fake? Where the heck did you get that from?
> 
> You really are stretching for something to compare Microsoft with arent you
> 
> Somewhere between God and Hitler lies Microsoft :lol:


The point was about how off base your questions were, and I guess I made that point pretty well.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

someone needs to write a good realy destructive virus for mac.. but then again with their % of market it's not worth it..


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

There are viruses for the mac, and even botnets... Most mac boys don't believe they exist.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

This thread is turning pretty viral...


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

rudeney said:


> This thread is turning pretty viral...


You can thank dreadlk...

Anyway ladies and gentleman, lets get back to the subject. Arguing with fanboys is pointless, since you'd spend your time arguing with any type.

Personally I wish Apple pcs were closer in price to MSRP of the components. I actually like the OS, and I like the all in one imacs. I do fight for my rights as a consumer though.

Apple makes some slick ****, I will give them that.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

This conversation is pretty pointless, you are trying to tell me how great Windows is when it's considered across the whole of the globe to be one of the worst piece of technological crap that has ever plagued human kind.

Windows is synonymous with Bugs and crashing and yet you are going to try and defend it as some great piece of work that's only problem is that it's just soooo popular that it's become a victim of deliberate sabotage :lol:

Look I have said this before but your not listening, I DONT OWN A MAC I DONT USE A MAC! Why is it that people feel that anybody that disagrees with them needs to have a label like Fan Boy put on them?

I am a windows user and have been one since the first Days of DOS, I actually started out using Pascal and Paper tape long before DOS even came out. So as a windows user from day one I can tell you that it has had a great big History of Sucking, one that was still going strong up to the release of Vista and that was there last major OS release. Yes I admit they do fix the problems, but it takes years and years and in the meantime people suffer.

MS has absolutely no pride in their product, they are just out to make a buck and try to have total control of the market while getting as much "Innovation" as they can from other companies products.

So what's next? Are you going to start telling me what a great guy Hitler was and that he was just misunderstood by society?

Like I said before, it's pointless arguing with anybody who hails Windows as a great product, your opinion flies right into the face of millions of complaints that you can find on the Internet



Zellio said:


> The point was about how off base your questions were, and I guess I made that point pretty well.


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> This conversation is pretty pointless, you are trying to tell me how great Windows is when it's considered across the whole of the globe to be one of the worst piece of technological crap that has ever plagued human kind.
> 
> Windows is synonymous with Bugs and crashing and yet you are going to try and defend it as some great piece of work that's only problem is that it's just soooo popular that it's become a victim of deliberate sabotage :lol:
> 
> ...


Okay, I've gone nice on you, but lets understand a few things:

PEBKAC. This is you. Problem exists between keyboard and chair. Their are plenty of people who **** up on windows, but guess what? THEY SPEND ALL THEIR TIME DOWNLOADING TROJANS.

I haven't had much in the way of issues in years, but I take steps to protect myself. People who protect themselves don't screw themselves over.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

And before you start, even Linux has viruses and trojans. No OS is perfect, and your ramblings are annoying to say the least.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> I am a windows user and have been one since the first Days of DOS, I actually started out using Pascal and Paper tape long before DOS even came out. So as a windows user from day one I can tell you that it has had a great big History of Sucking, one that was still going strong up to the release of Vista and that was there last major OS release. Yes I admit they do fix the problems, but it takes years and years and in the meantime people suffer.


And I used Basic as a 4 year old on my brothers commodore 64, and a 286 on MS-DOS as a 10 year old. Your point?

And I've used Windows 2.0, 3.1, 3.11, 95. 98, ME, Xp, Vista, and 7 just for home OS's. You'd have a point if this was 99 and we were using ME.

At least I know the difference between kernels of the Win 9x series and Win NT.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

That's the first statement you have made that I agree with, but it still does not take away from the fact that almost all the Windows versions that are initially released can be compromised in so many different ways by even a 14 year old kid! This speaks volumes about MS and the integrity of its designs.

Just for a laugh let me ask you a question. If you where hooked up to an artificial Heart and that heart was being monitored and adjusted by a doctor via the Internet what OS Platform would you want controlling the pump and doing the link?

A)	Unix
B)	OSX
C)	Windows Vista

(Assuming the controlling software is of the same quality on all of them)



Zellio said:


> Okay, I've gone nice on you, but lets understand a few things:
> 
> PEBKAC. This is you. Problem exists between keyboard and chair. Their are plenty of people who **** up on windows, but guess what? THEY SPEND ALL THEIR TIME DOWNLOADING TROJANS.
> 
> I haven't had much in the way of issues in years, but I take steps to protect myself. People who protect themselves don't screw themselves over.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Yes they all do but Windows has more new ones added each month than the others have in total :lol:

BTW Sorry that im annoying you :kisscheek



Zellio said:


> And before you start, even Linux has viruses and trojans. No OS is perfect, and your ramblings are annoying to say the least.


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> That's the first statement you have made that I agree with, but it still does not take away from the fact that almost all the Windows versions that are initially released can be compromised in so many different ways by even a 14 year old kid! This speaks volumes about MS and the integrity of its designs.
> 
> Just for a laugh let me ask you a question. If you where hooked up to an artificial Heart and that heart was being monitored and adjusted by a doctor via the Internet what OS Platform would you want controlling the pump and doing the link?
> 
> ...


Well if my heart was able to be adjusted via the internet I may as well die. Any hacker would see to that.

The question you are asking goes beyond OS. It goes to broadband security, which is alot more complicated. If the doctor is connecting remotely that's one issue. Password, wireless security, more issues.

So no good answer here.


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> Yes they all do but Windows has more new ones added each month than the others have in total :lol:
> 
> BTW Sorry that im annoying you :kisscheek


Hum, apology accepted... I think?? Never had that response to an argument before online


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Zellio said:


> Visual Basic? And you expect that to mean anything? Come back with C++ before you start bragging, because VB is useless.


As someone who does business software for a living, I say that you're not living in the real world. C++ and C# and .net may be the latest in class projects, but the real work still gets done with BASIC and other more conventional programming languages.

Every year a new batch of self-important would-be programmers is unleashed on the job market with visions of improving the world by applying the latest in development tools. The problem is that nobody wants to spend the time and money to port things that work just fine. Business needs programmers that can add new features and functionality now, not spend months porting (and twice as long debugging) before they can build on what they've done.

If users still have to send everything to a outboard report grinder (ie Crystal Reports) or a spreadsheet, where is the benefit in all of this investment? You know that some other development platform is just around the corner so they can begin the porting process anew.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Ok... We have wondered off topic.. The topic is "What Apple Does Right". If we want to discuss what languages currently are significant in corporate or enterprise space by all means start a topic and I will be happy to participate as I have 25+ years developing in that space. 

This thread was allowed to be a bit loose but it has turned so I am pulling it back.. Keep the posts to what you think Apple has done right.. Feel free to rebuttal if done without personal attacks and in respect to this thread do not turn it into another MS vs Apple thread. It is not what this thread is about.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> BTW why is MS so hated if they do such a good Job? And why is Apple so loved if they make crap products.


I think the only way you can measure love and hate in the consumer products world is to measure unit sales...and Apple isn't even close to Microsoft in that regard.

Anyone who truly "loves" their operating system needs to go outside for a bit.

What does Apple do right? They have a great brand and have stuck with a very successful marketing strategy for decades. Their equipment is good, but not great. They understand user interfaces and do a very good job in having ISVs follow their rules.

Someone mentioned that Apple always get the new technology so the machines aren't outdated quickly...so if I buy a Mac laptop from the Apple Store I'm sure they all come with Blu ray players installed? It's at least an option...right?

Finally, the bunk about Macs not getting viruses is just that. Apple is testing malware protection for Snow Leopard and there have been Mac viruses going back to the Mac Plus and SE. There aren't as many because virus writers tend to follow the same path as every other ISV...write software for the biggest possible market. If you believe the Mac to be virus proof without AV software you're truly foolish.

I don't hate Apple or Macs by any means...I've had them, used them and consider them like any other computing device. I'll never understand the religious fervor people will bring to a computing discussion.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

PatentBoy said:


> I'm a user of both PCs and Macs, but prefer Macs by a long shot...
> 
> Not all the parts are simply off-the-shelf. They did buy a semiconductor company last year... Plus, it is also how they are integrated (system design) which matters as well.
> 
> ...


Mine does. I have a Dell Inspiron 1521 with an Intel Dual Core processor and it cost me $539


```
223-8965 Inspiron 1525, Intel Pentium Dual Core T2390               EA 539.00 
311-8081 3GB, DDR2, 667MHz 2 Dimm                                   EA   0.00 
320-6047 15.4 inch Wide Screen WXGA LCD TrueLife for Inspiron 1525  EA   0.00 
320-6059 Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100                     EA   0.00 
341-5618 250G 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive                               EA   0.00 
430-2651 Integrated 10/100 Network Card                             EA   0.00 
313-5791 8X DVD+/-RW Dual Layer Drive                               EA   0.00 
313-4783 Integrated High Definition Audio 2.0                       EA   0.00 
430-2652 Dell Wireless 1395 802.11g Mini Card,for Insp 1525         EA   0.00
```


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Ken your an Intelligent guy, I am shocked that a statement like this would come out of your mouth 

So by your standard:

General Motors would be more loved than Porsche or Ferrari!
Comcast would be more loved than Directv or FIOS!
and the list could go on forever.

The unit sales often have very little to do with customer Loving the product more than other products in the same family. People buy things based on many other factors, like availability, affordability, familiarity, compatibility etc.
We all know compatibility familiarity and affordability are the only reasons why Apple and Linux have not gone way past Microsoft in user base totals.

As for Viruses, nobody is saying Apple and Linux/Unix don't have viruses, but the fact is that more Viruses come out for PC's in any given month than all the ones for Apple/Linux have in total! And little script kiddies are not able to whip out viruses for Macs like they do for PC's.



Ken S said:


> I think the only way you can measure love and hate in the consumer products world is to measure unit sales...and Apple isn't even close to Microsoft in that regard.
> .


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Apple just might have a point about writing their own antivirus software. I have always found it to be very conflicting to have third party software companies write AV software. Everytime a new major virus comes out the AV industries sales soar for months  Now if I ran a AV company and knew that........



Ken S said:


> Finally, the bunk about Macs not getting viruses is just that. Apple is testing malware protection for Snow Leopard and there have been Mac viruses going back to the Mac Plus and SE. There aren't as many because virus writers tend to follow the same path as every other ISV...write software for the biggest possible market. If you believe the Mac to be virus proof without AV software you're truly foolish.
> .


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Ken your an Intelligent guy, I am shocked that a statement like this would come out of your mouth
> 
> So by your standard:
> 
> ...


GM to Porsche?

The price difference between PCs and Mac isn't anywhere near that drastic. BTW, I've owned a GM and a Porsche...didn't love either of them...they were cars. The Porsche was more fun, the GM was better suited for commuting to work.

Comcast and FIOS...most people don't have a choice.

Comparability, familiarity and affordability...sounds like reasons to really like something. Also, why do you think that the Windows world is so far ahead in those areas? It's not like the Mac hasn't been around just about as long as Windows...both are close to 30 years old. Actually, the MacOS is really older than the first real publicly accepted version of Windows (3.0).

Face it...most of the public prefers Windows or at some point over the past couple of decades they'd have switched.

Why that bothers people that use Macs so much is a mystery to me. I guess they have to keep reaffirming to themselves that buying a Mac was the right thing to do.

If you're happy with your computer...that's great. If you "love" your computer...get a life.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Well Ken that was a smooth skirt around my post 

I know people who Love their Porsche 911's. If you scratched their car you might end up dead, while those same guys would use a GM's upholstery for toilet paper :lol:, not sure if I have ever seen someone who actually Loved a GM vehicle.

The only reason that Windows got so far ahead of Mac was that they kept an open architecture which quickly spurred 3rd party software development, which lasted up until the point when MS started to "Innovate" themselves with 3rd party "borrowed" technology. But the real advantage for MS came during the many years that Steve Jobs was not at the helm of Apple.

Since Jobs came back Apple has increased sales by an astronomical percentage albeit most of that is Ipods, Iphones and Laptops but none the less had he stayed in control of the company throughout the years I think this game would have been a lot different. In any case my feeling is that MS is on there way out, it will be a slow process but they are slowly being nibbled by Google, Ubuntu and OSX and my feeling is that in 5-10 years the picture may be totally different.



Ken S said:


> GM to Porsche?
> 
> The price difference between PCs and Mac isn't anywhere near that drastic. BTW, I've owned a GM and a Porsche...didn't love either of them...they were cars. The Porsche was more fun, the GM was better suited for commuting to work.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

There are plenty of people that "love" GM products...are you kidding? They're not me...but go to any Corvette club and you'll find fanatics...same goes for the Camaro, Cadillac, and some of their trucks.

We're not talking about iPods, iPhones, etc. It's Macs and basically they're at about the same percentage of usage they've always been. I don't think Apple has ever been much above 10% marketshare. It's basically a cult product.

Your theory on why Microsoft is so dominant is a joke. They blew away companies in many segments that were shortsighted and didn't understand Windows. Ask WordPerfect, Novell, Lotus, Ashton-Tate/Borland, SPC and Netscape to name a few. Very few ever went head to head with Microsoft and beat them...AOL was one for awhile.

Actually, there were two programs that kept the Mac on the market for many years...Pagemaker (Adobe) and Excel. Without those two peices of software there may not be a Mac today.

Will Microsoft remain dominant? I don't know. They've done some things well and some things poorly. They face challenges on many fronts...they also have different leadership than they did during the 90s. There are a lot of people there that would have never been hired in the past. Getting as big as they are causes huge problems. What constitutes a computer may be completely different by then.

If Steve Jobs is the reason that Apple is so successful I wouldn't bank on him being in charge in five to 10 years.

As I said, I'm not attacking Macs...they're good for somethings, better than Windows in some areas and worse in others. It's just a tool not a religion. I don't understand why the Apple fans feel so insecure about their purchase that they need to keep attacking Microsoft products. It's funny they also used to attack Intel processors as well.



dreadlk said:


> Well Ken that was a smooth skirt around my post
> 
> I know people who Love their Porsche 911's. If you scratched their car you might end up dead, while those same guys would use a GM's upholstery for toilet paper :lol:, not sure if I have ever seen someone who actually Loved a GM vehicle.
> 
> ...


----------



## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> Well Ken that was a smooth skirt around my post
> 
> I know people who Love their Porsche 911's. If you scratched their car you might end up dead, while those same guys would use a GM's upholstery for toilet paper :lol:, not sure if I have ever seen someone who actually Loved a GM vehicle.
> 
> ...


No, Apple found a product people loved and sold it. Apple wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the ipod, even with Steve Jobs on the helm. How exactly does the ipod have anything to do with Microsoft?

Because again, Apple was failing to the point where Microsoft bought some of their stock, to keep competition going btw?


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## Zellio (Mar 8, 2009)

Ken S said:


> It's funny they also used to attack Intel processors as well.


That is the number 1 sign of a fanboy. If a person attacks a product until it is used in their product.


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