# L4.01 thought to be for 3/1 release (Delayed)



## Mark Lamutt

From the Tech Forum tonight, the next software version L4.01 is scheduled for March 1st.

Will it make it by then? My answer to that is a resounding...maybe... 

And, even though jumps in software versions doesn't always mean a major upgrade, this one will be...


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## JM Anthony

Mark - thnx. for the update. That's certainly good news. Hopefully they'll be on schedule.

John


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## Mark Lamutt

And please keep in mind that I chose the word *maybe* very carefully and very purposefully...


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## Mike D-CO5

Yes it is coming SOON.:sure:


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## thefunks67

My take was, it is being tested and if all goes well it will be here before March 1. No promises, but it looks promising.

-Funk


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## nneptune

Any news on what the big changes may be?


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## tnsprin

nneptune said:


> Any news on what the big changes may be?


The only obvious one is support of Dish's version of iPTV.

However the announced features are smaller and mentioned in Mark's Tech Forum recap
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79596


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## Hall

tnsprin said:


> The only obvious one is support of Dish's version of iPTV.


 The recap calls it "iTV" and you say "iPTV". What's the difference ?? Does either refer to the stuff on the Dish Home channel, for example, the NASCAR stuff that they demo'd ??


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## tnsprin

Hall said:


> The recap calls it "iTV" and you say "iPTV". What's the difference ?? Does either refer to the stuff on the Dish Home channel, for example, the NASCAR stuff that they demo'd ??


Interactive Tv is the stuff you see on channel 100

IPTV is programming supplied over an internet connection. Dish has been showing their version which they are calling DishOnline.


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## James Long

DISHOnline is not expected in L4.01 ... only the changes noted in the Tech Chat (side by side PIP, HD labels, national channel HD downmap, HD/SD preference on each DISHPass)

External Storage ... on hold until E* figures out the "business rules"


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## Hall

Yes, I was making sure they were two different things. As James noted, there was NO mention of anything like DISHOnline coming in L4.01.


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## ChuckA

Also DD 5.1 via HDMI they said was in L4.01.


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## pdxsam

James Long said:


> External Storage ... on hold until E* figures out the "business rules"


Which I translated to mean "We need to find out just how much money we can charge for an enabling fee before we release this"


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## Ron Barry

tnsprin said:


> The only obvious one is support of Dish's version of iPTV.
> 
> However the announced features are smaller and mentioned in Mark's Tech Forum recap
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79596


What announced features?.. Dish normally does not have a list of announced features but does mentione them during Charlie and Tech chats. Am I missing something here? Is there now an official release feature site?


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## dbconsultant

I didn't see any mention of fixing the audio problems (stuttering, drop-outs, etc.) - does this mean that 4.01 won't be addressing the problems that were introduced with the prior downloads?


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## Mark Lamutt

Bug fixes weren't mentioned in the tech forum. But there are many, many fixes coming in the next version.


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## dbconsultant

Mark Lamutt said:


> Bug fixes weren't mentioned in the tech forum. But there are many, many fixes coming in the next version.


Keeping my fingers crossed!


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## Mike D-CO5

pdxsam said:


> Which I translated to mean "We need to find out just how much money we can charge for an enabling fee before we release this"


That sounds more likely. It is always about fees , fees , fees with any new sat service delivered lately.


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## Stewart Vernon

Can't speak for Dish but usually software releases are driven by two factors:

1. Releases that can make them money.
2. Releases that fix major bugs.

Major bugs get fixed first, then minor ones... New features get added first if they mean more money for the company, second if they can time it with a release.

Given that none of the announced new features seem to be any that will make Dish money directly... I would expect there to be lots of bug fixes in this coming release.

That's just a general perspective from software releases in general, and may not reflect how Dish operates... though I would be surprised if they were too far from that guess.


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## James Long

A reminder that this is a support forum ... so let's stay with the topics of function not E*'s business practices, pro or con. We have several other forums for that.


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## BobaBird

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Yes it is coming SOON.:sure:


At least they didn't say "very very soon" so there may be hope.:grin:


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## JM Anthony

dbconsultant said:


> I didn't see any mention of fixing the audio problems (stuttering, drop-outs, etc.) - does this mean that 4.01 won't be addressing the problems that were introduced with the prior downloads?





Mark Lamutt said:


> Bug fixes weren't mentioned in the tech forum. But there are many, many fixes coming in the next version.


I really don't care that much about new features. I mean, they'll be nice, but I'm really looking forward to getting the audio problems squared away. Those are a real PITA.

John


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## BillJ

I just hope this version doesn't create new problems. The delay in release hopefully means they have thoroughly tested it. 

Side by side PIP will be great. My TV supports this from the OTA input but no others. That was about the only good thing when I had cable. With a 65" I could watch two football games comfortably at the same time.

The other new features are less important to me.


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## ssmith10pn

SO.. should I go ahead and connect Ethernet to my 622?


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## James Long

Wouldn't hurt.

Wouldn't help either, but there is no fire hazzard.


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## netnerdvana

"I can't watch this ... lets turn it off" ...

The above quote is word for word from my girl friend after watching several programs recorded off of Nat Geo HD (NGHD). 

Think a second about that... Spending a few grand on HDTV, a few hundred on a 622 and then ...

"I can't watch this ... lets turn it off" ...

The audio stuttering and drop out make watching almost anything on NGHD recorded on my 622 completely frustrating ... no .... impossible. If NGHD isnt fixed by March 1st I will downgrade from the platinum package to AT100 + HD. Nat Geo HD carries a premium and that channel is now impossible to watch so why should I pay for it???

Ok, ... Im waiting ... convince me I should stay at the top tier ....

"I can't watch this ... lets turn it off" ...


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## david803sc

Actually in the Tech Chat at one point he said all customers should have it by March 1st, the way he said this, made me think it will roll out before than but that they expect to get it to everyone by that date the latest, I am not sure how they have done thisin the past if they roll it out to groups at a time or everyone at once.

David


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## Hall

I heard it (understood it) the same way. It would be to everyone *by* March 1st.


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## James Long

_Should_ is the word one should be more concerned about. There is no WILL in should.

They mentioned delays that pushed it into the Christmas freeze ... could they get it all together and released in the next two weeks? Possibly. But if you turn a shold into a promise you will be disapointed often.

BTW: NBR for the 50x should be released by the end of 2005.
reach:


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## Ron Barry

Like I said before... A release is not a release until it is released. Lot can happen between now and March 1st that could easily push the date back. I would rather have if delayed if Dish does not feel it is ready for prime time rather than push it out prematurely. 

And as I see it. This does not make March 1st a promised date.. It is a new target date and like any target date some get hit and some don't. Hope this one gets hit, but if not life goes on.


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## TBoneit

netnerdvana said:


> "I can't watch this ... lets turn it off" ...
> 
> The above quote is word for word from my girl friend after watching several programs recorded off of Nat Geo HD (NGHD).
> 
> Think a second about that... Spending a few grand on HDTV, a few hundred on a 622 and then ...
> 
> "I can't watch this ... lets turn it off" ...
> 
> The audio stuttering and drop out make watching almost anything on NGHD recorded on my 622 completely frustrating ... no .... impossible. If NGHD isnt fixed by March 1st I will downgrade from the platinum package to AT100 + HD. Nat Geo HD carries a premium and that channel is now impossible to watch so why should I pay for it???
> 
> Ok, ... Im waiting ... convince me I should stay at the top tier ....
> 
> "I can't watch this ... lets turn it off" ...


I'm not saying you aren't having Nat Geo HD problems in your location....

I wonder where you are getting it from? I get my HD from 61.5 here in Central NJ.
Nat Geo HD is fine for me so I wonder if you are having signal strength problems or what. I would be guessing of course, however my guess is that the same signal is fed to all the sats that supply HD so it shouldn't be a bad feed.

Could it be the sound source you are using? I get my sound via HDMI to the TV.

Good Luck


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## dbconsultant

Ron Barry said:


> I would rather have if delayed if Dish does not feel it is ready for prime time rather than push it out prematurely.


I couldn't agree with you more! The last thing we need is another release that creates problems rather than fixing them. We had a perfectly functioning, stable unit until they installed the software for VOD (3.64?). Ever since 3.64, we have to hit the pause or rewind button to get around the sound stutter that occurs on most programs - very annoying! 3.65 didn't fix the problems; hoping that 4.0.1 will but we're willing to wait for it if they don't have the bugs worked out.


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## Ron Barry

Actually, if I recall rightt, he big we took was on L3.63 in terms of audio. L3.60, in my opinion, was the best release to date. L3.65 got us back to reasonable, but definitely room for improvement. 

Interesting TBoneit.. I also see audio issues with Nation Geo and I don't have 61.5 so I am getting it from one of these 129/119/110/148. Perhaps this is a stream issue..


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## Steve_53

I get National Geographic HD via 61.5 (I'm in Eastern MA), and I also am seeing, or should I say, hearing, extreme dropouts on the audio on both recorded and delayed viewing. I'm having the same issue on other (non-HD) channels such as the Science Channel - but again, only when watching a show that was recorded or being viewed delayed. I sure hope L4.01 addresses this issue.


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## dbconsultant

Ron Barry said:


> Actually, if I recall rightt, he big we took was on L3.63 in terms of audio. L3.60, in my opinion, was the best release to date. L3.65 got us back to reasonable, but definitely room for improvement.


Thanks, Ron, I knew it was one of the 3.6 numbers. When we got our 622, we were upgrading from a very buggy, many-times replaced 510. My husband had wanted to go with D* but got tired of waiting for their HD DVR and really didn't want to be an early adopter so we bit the bullet and went for the 622 with much trepidation (having experience with many buggy boxes in the 5xx series). We were tickled and surprised with the excellent performance for about 2 or 3 months and then came 3.63 followed by 3.65. The audio thing is so irritating, sometimes having to stop and start a playback 10 times in an hour - kinda wrecks your concentration on the program so he's back to thinking, "Great, another buggy box." So that why I'm really hoping that 4.01 fixes the audio stuff that was introduced with 3.63. Keeping my fingers crossed (somebody needs to add a smiley with crossed fingers to the list:lol: )!


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## Hall

James Long said:


> DISHOnline is not expected in L4.01...


 Let's hope Dish is real good about keeping a secret ! It's likely wishful thinking, but Dish just launched DishOnline and there's a long-overdue software update following for the 622....

How 'bout this ?? I don't have a CAT5 cable long enough at the moment. I could get one made tomorrow at work, but I won't.... If I do, I'll jinx things for us. If I don't, I'll be sitting at work one day reading how others have seen their 622 talking to the internet and I won't be able to use it right away.


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## Eagles

Well, based on the normal Dish SW release days we have three days left to meet the March 1st deadline. I would be surprised if we "ALL" have it by the 1st.


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## tnsprin

Eagles said:


> Well, based on the normal Dish SW release days we have three days left to meet the March 1st deadline. I would be surprised if we "ALL" have it by the 1st.


They apparently delayed the partial release (see source on the tech portal which was never uncommented http://rweb.echostar.com/departmental_content/TechPortal/content/tech/TechUpdates.shtml )

So March 1st may be delayed as you said.


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## thefunks67

Where is the 622 mentioned in that list?

-Funk


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## James Long

In the source code for the webpage ...


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## Stewart Vernon

Looks like they saw where people were reading their remarked-out source and just removed it. We could still see it happen tomorrow, they just got wise to folks looking at their source code perhaps.


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## thefunks67

James Long said:


> In the source code for the webpage ...


Damn, you guys are HARDCORE.

No grain of sand unturned..................

-Funk


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## James Long

HDMe said:


> Looks like they saw where people were reading their remarked-out source and just removed it. We could still see it happen tomorrow, they just got wise to folks looking at their source code perhaps.


We have also passed the date that was on the announcements. But there is still time by the 1st.

Tomorrow, tomorrow, there is always tomorrow ....


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## Mark Lamutt

As of last night, March 1st (or possibly before) is starting to look promising. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. You all have no idea how much work has gone into this one from all parties involved.


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## Stewart Vernon

Mark Lamutt said:


> As of last night, March 1st (or possibly before) is starting to look promising. I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. You all have no idea how much work has gone into this one from all parties involved.


I can't speak for the masses... but having worked for computer software companies and even being an amateur programmer myself... I am sure lots of work has gone into this upcoming release from the sound of things. Fixing bugs is no small feat, and adding new features on top of that and still making sure everything else works as planned is a bigger deal than many realize.

In most lines of work you can finish yesterday and move to tomorrow and yesterday still is there... but with software, any time you touch any part of the code you can potentially undo or invalidate the previous day's work... so you constantly have to test and re-test to make sure you not only fixed something today but didn't break anything else in the history of the code!


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## Mike D-CO5

HDMe said:


> I can't speak for the masses... but having worked for computer software companies and even being an amateur programmer myself... I am sure lots of work has gone into this upcoming release from the sound of things. Fixing bugs is no small feat, and adding new features on top of that and still making sure everything else works as planned is a bigger deal than many realize.
> 
> In most lines of work you can finish yesterday and move to tomorrow and yesterday still is there... but with software, any time you touch any part of the code you can potentially undue or invalidate the previous day's work... so you constantly have to test and re-test to make sure you not only fixed something today but didn't break anything else in the history of the code!


Boy that is a job I wouldn't want to have. Imagine when there is a screwup in the software and you were the one that wrote the new software.


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## Ron Barry

Been there.. Done that.. and have the T-shirt to prove it.  Yeah.. Tough job and kudos to the guys dedicated to improving the quality and adding features. Based on my software experience, There definitely is a lot more that goes on both in terms of actually software development and business interference than one would think. 

Lets hope the hard work pays off and we get the benefits of it.


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## ChuckA

Sure....its all flowers just before the software is released. Then, when the first bug hits....what dummy was it that did this to us? :lol: (been there done that too!)


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## TulsaOK

HDMe said:


> ... so you constantly have to test and re-test to make sure you not only fixed something today but didn't break anything else in the history of the code!


It's called regression testing. It's a very important step that I wish Dish could improve upon.


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## Stewart Vernon

TulsaOK said:


> It's called regression testing. It's a very important step that I wish Dish could improve upon.


I figured if I just said "regression testing" a lot of folks would ask... but I probably should have named it in my post. Thanks for adding to it.

I can't speak for Dish processes of course, but I know some companies do a better job than others. I also know that some programmers want to do a better job but sometimes companies make marketing/business decisions to push things out the door "at risk" sooner than programmers are comfortable with releasing.


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## wje

HDMe said:


> I also know that some programmers want to do a better job but sometimes companies make marketing/business decisions to push things out the door "at risk" sooner than programmers are comfortable with releasing.


That's for sure. It isn't necessarily a terrible thing, though. My company writes software that is used by just about every telephone provider, wired and wireless, in the US and Europe, to manage their networks and switching infrastructure. We're constantly having to rush new functionality. It's big, complex software, and while we have a large regression test suite, it's impossible to test every combination of features in every way a customer might use them.

So, we have this little process we call 'triage'. Some areas get more testing than others, some known bugs aren't immediately fixed. It all depends upon how likely a customer is to encounter it, and how severe it is.

So, why would it be a good thing to not fix something? Basically, time. We'd never ship anything if every known (or unknown) issue had to be fixed. Keep in mind that this is considered 'mission critical' software for our customers,and we usually have a 99.999% uptime requirement, but they understand that no software of any complexity can be guaranteed to be bug-free. Alan Turing (yes, the one 'Brilliant Mind' is about) formally proved this years ago, it's the 'Halting Problem'.

This isn't to say that crashing is acceptable, but bugs which don't keep the system from working and for which there are other ways of accomplishing the same thing aren't show-stoppers for us or our customers.

However, it seems that E* needs to improve their triage a bit; some of the issues seem to affect a lot of people in significant ways. On the other hand, it really is unrealistic to expect absolute perfection; you can't have it even if E* wanted to provide it.


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## TulsaOK

wje said:


> On the other hand, it really is unrealistic to expect absolute perfection; you can't have it even if E* wanted to provide it.


I've encountered a couple of things that are bugs in the software but I've found a work-around. I'm OK with that. I can't find a work-around for audio drop-outs and extreme pixelization and streaking on my local channels. I'm not OK with that. With as many folks that have posted these issues, Dish had to know this existed. I don't know if Dish has any customers do testing prior to a release or not, but customers nearly always do better testing than the folks who developed the software. I never liked to hear "... but I didn't change anything in that area; why should I test something I didn't change? ..." We did a pretty good job of testing but a few things slipped by that I feel a customer might have found had we released beta versions to a few outsiders. As soon as 4.01 gets released, count the days before someone here will have found something that doesn't work anymore. 
My $.02.


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## Ron Barry

As to the comment about not testing in an area that was not touched, testing should try and test all areas. As to regression testing, well that is something that is not in all development methodologies. In certain camps, certain people feel that if unit testing is done and automated testing is done then no QA is necessary. This is found in some Agile development processes. Personally I have not seen this level achieved, but have been in discussion where it felt it was achievable. Funny thing is with the resource levels and focus, I totally disagreed with the statement

As It has been said in the past, Dish does do some external testing with their software. Having said that, we are talking about an box that externally contacts to a multitude of TVs and a multitude of configurations. Also has added complexity of multiple input Streams (OTA/SAT) that do change over time and multiple decoding technology. 

Has Dish let out some bugs that should have been caught, most definitely and there always room for improvement. Does this mean that they don't do regression testing well enough. Well, that is one possibility but with regression testing there is a trade off and judgment calls being made. When do you start regression testing? How do you handle regression testing while doing bug fixing. Do you start over if you have fixed a number of bugs. Do you go through bug fix -> Regression -> bug fix and keep going until you feel you have achieved the correct level? The purist would say you start over, but practically speaking this is a costly approach and depending on the product it would be over kill.

My main point is... Since none of us are actually been on the E* development team it is hard to now what exactly gets down during development process. All we see is the end result and it is easy to Monday morning QB. 

Well I have more to write.. but off to a soccer game.. Overall I think the E* team has done an excellent job with the 622 from my perspective. Is there room for improvement, ofcourse. But there always is.


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## TulsaOK

Ron Barry said:


> Overall I think the E* team has done an excellent job with the 622 from my perspective. Is there room for improvement, ofcourse. But there always is.


I think the ViP622 is an incredible piece of hardware and the software that drives it is equally incredible. I can record three HD programs and watch two more simultaneously. That's awesome. I still think some of the more glaring issues, audio drop-outs and problems with local channels, should have been addressed and more emphasis should have been placed on them prior to release. When I want to record a favorite program, I back it up with OTA. I should have more confidence that my SAT channel will not flake out. Another work-around I've learned to live with. An obscure bug here and there, no problem. When I can't watch an hour show without having to turn on CC because the audio has ceased to exist, problem.


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## Grandude

Strange anomlies happen from time to time too. Just last night while watching something I had previously recorded, a screen came up, error 002, stating that I had lost the signal from sat 61.5 for channel 07. Now this is very strange as I don't have a dish pointing at 61.5, quite difficult here from the left coast. The show I was watching was recorded from Dish on a major network in HD but I didn't think at the time to see what channel I had recorded it from. Might have been channel 7 but I doubt it as that channel seldom has anything I want to record.
I don't know if this is a known bug but suspect not as I have not seen it reported here.


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## Bogey62

I don't care about new features, etc. All I want is the dropped frames in the video to be fixed! I've been living with this bug for almost a year now. Web-cam-quality frame rates at times are not fun to watch on TV1.


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## James Long

Ron Barry said:


> My main point is... Since none of us are actually been on the E* development team it is hard to now what exactly gets down during development process. All we see is the end result and it is easy to Monday morning QB.


Very true. We know little about how E*'s process really works ... nearly every description I've read has at least one flaw in the description where I know the description of the process isn't 100% accurate. I suppose that we could try to piece together all of the descriptions, toss out all the "obviously wrong" parts and put forward a best guess as to what is really going on --- but it would STILL be a best _guess_ not the _truth_. So why bother guessing?

It is good to hear from those who develop elsewhere about their companies and experiences to get a general feel about development and testing but we need to remember, as Ron wrote above, that we don't see E*'s process - we only see a result. To blindly paint the process as good or bad without knowing the process is illogical.


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## TulsaOK

James Long said:


> To blindly paint the process as good or bad without knowing the process is llogical.


Sometimes, the results speak for themselves.


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## James Long

TulsaOK said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> To blindly paint the process as good or bad without knowing the process is llogical.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes, the results speak for themselves.
Click to expand...

And then there is user error.


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## kmcnamara

I've worked in software QA for years. There are a variety of reasons for bad software releases: Poor design, changes made at the end of the cycle and not enough time is given for regression testing, business decision to ship even though QA is screaming that it's not ready, feature creep, and simply incompetent testing. Too often people assume the last choice but unless we're directly involved, we don't know for sure.


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## terminal33

TulsaOK said:


> I think the ViP622 is an incredible piece of hardware and the software that drives it is equally incredible. I can record three HD programs and watch two more simultaneously. That's awesome. I still think some of the more glaring issues, audio drop-outs and problems with local channels, should have been addressed and more emphasis should have been placed on them prior to release. When I want to record a favorite program, I back it up with OTA. I should have more confidence that my SAT channel will not flake out. Another work-around I've learned to live with. An obscure bug here and there, no problem. When I can't watch an hour show without having to turn on CC because the audio has ceased to exist, problem.


Can you explain to me how to record 3 programs and watch two more? Thanks!


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## ChuckA

You must have an OTA antenna connected to do it, but all you have to do is be running in Dual mode, set a timer for each sat tuner and one for the OTA tuner. That will get you three recordings at once. Of course you can't watch anything at that point except what is being recorded or something already recorded. Each TV (TV1 and TV2 outputs actually regardless of the number of TVs) can then select a recorded program to watch. There you are with 5 streams going at once! :joy:


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## terminal33

TulsaOK said:


> I think the ViP622 is an incredible piece of hardware and the software that drives it is equally incredible. I can record three HD programs and watch two more simultaneously. That's awesome. I still think some of the more glaring issues, audio drop-outs and problems with local channels, should have been addressed and more emphasis should have been placed on them prior to release. When I want to record a favorite program, I back it up with OTA. I should have more confidence that my SAT channel will not flake out. Another work-around I've learned to live with. An obscure bug here and there, no problem. When I can't watch an hour show without having to turn on CC because the audio has ceased to exist, problem.





ChuckA said:


> You must have an OTA antenna connected to do it, but all you have to do is be running in Dual mode, set a timer for each sat tuner and one for the OTA tuner. That will get you three recordings at once. Of course you can't watch anything at that point except what is being recorded or something already recorded. Each TV (TV1 and TV2 outputs actually regardless of the number of TVs) can then select a recorded program to watch. There you are with 5 streams going at once! :joy:


Thanks!


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## Jim5506

You can record 3 simultaneous events in single mode also, but you can only watch one recording.


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## tnsprin

They rolled out L3.66 today. Does that mean that they are delaying L4.01?


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## Eagles

tnsprin said:


> They rolled out L3.66 today. Does that mean that they are delaying L4.01?


Seems to be the case. Dish Software update page has the full phase release of L3.66 scheduled for March 1st. (View Page Source) Obviously they do not intend to release L4.01 this week.


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## boylehome

tnsprin said:


> They rolled out L3.66 today. Does that mean that they are delaying L4.01?


My guess is that L4.01 will be delayed. L3.66 for DST for now, so why spool L4.01 with DST by 3-01-07?


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## netnerdvana

>You can record 3 simultaneous events in single mode also, but you can only watch one recording.

Or in single mode watch 2 recordings with Picture-In-Picture. 

Back on thread topic ... Im crossing my fingers that 4.01 doesnt produce major problems for people. I used to do regression testing and the risk is always high that new feature create new bugs or break old functionality/stability.


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## Ron Barry

Got a response back on Dish on status of L4.01 and L366.

L366 is being released only to support daylight savings time due to the earlier start date this year. Currently in partial release. Full release is planned for Thursday. 

L401 will be released at a later date, probably within 2-3 weeks.


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## Eagles

Ron Barry said:


> L401 will be released at a later date, probably within 2-3 weeks.


Talk about moving the goal post back. This just isn't fair. 
Seriously though, I'm beginning to wonder if we'll ever see L4.01. There must be some problems with it which makes Dish uncomfortable. By the time we get an update it will probably be another version.


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## Ron Barry

I am not sure what the reason is, but I would rather have the goal post moved back than getting goal posts that are bent.  Well just like my sig reads... Not release until it is released and from my experiences releases can be held up for a number of reasons.


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## tnsprin

Ron Barry said:


> Got a response back on Dish on status of L4.01 and L366.
> 
> L366 is being released only to support daylight savings time due to the earlier start date this year. Currently in partial release. Full release is planned for Thursday.
> 
> L401 will be released at a later date, probably within 2-3 weeks.


Both of mine got l366 this time, which is why I mentioned no obvious changes.


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## Stewart Vernon

I always love the people who complain when a release is delayed, presumably because of discovered problems at the last minute.... BUT those same people will be first in line to complain if their release doesn't work 100% perfectly, claiming "it should have been tested first" or something.

Personally, I always prefer a company who will not rush to release something over one who just runs things out the door. I worked for a company who got the reputation for always having buggy first releases, so bad to the point that the salespeople simply could not sell upgrades until we were on release X.1 or X.2 of a product.


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## Grandude

It seems to me, and perhaps others here, that over five months is a long time to wait for a fix to some of the very annoying bugs present in the current release dated 9/28/06. I sure don't think Dish/Echostar is being very responsive when it comes to fixing their 'flagship' receiver.

After this long a wait, it had better be worth it. But I'm just expressing my point of view.


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## Stewart Vernon

Grandude said:


> After this long a wait, it had better be worth it. But I'm just expressing my point of view.


Another reason to delay if it is not quite ready for primetime.

I always say that if something is worth doing at all, it is worth doing right... even if it takes more time and is delayed... because everything takes more time to fix later than it would take to fix now. AND customers are far more forgiving for you missing a promised date but delivering late with functionality. Delivering on time means nothing if there are major problems.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

L4.01 was close, but not quite ready for primetime. Beta uncovered a something at the last minute (just about literally) that is being rigorously tracked right now, and will hopefully be fixed quickly.


----------



## hoehemi1

I fully agree with you BUT to me the whole issue is not so much about another delay for 4.01 but the fact that E* CEO announced features of 4.01 to be released late last year (as a Christmas present to us) and 3 months later his team is still not able to deliver on his 'promise'. Charlie is not close enough to software development but one of his guys is. If I would be Charlie I would feel embarrassed and have a serious chat with the guy that made me make this promise.

Given that this is not the first time of 'broken promises' by E* and Charlie (anyone remembers the famous 921 moving release targets?) the real issue might be that Charlie does NOT feel embarrassed. Well, I would.

Based on past performance 4.01 will come, some things will have gotten fixed, some improvements will have been made and some stuff will be broken.



HDMe said:


> I always love the people who complain when a release is delayed, presumably because of discovered problems at the last minute.... BUT those same people will be first in line to complain if their release doesn't work 100% perfectly, claiming "it should have been tested first" or something.
> 
> Personally, I always prefer a company who will not rush to release something over one who just runs things out the door. I worked for a company who got the reputation for always having buggy first releases, so bad to the point that the salespeople simply could not sell upgrades until we were on release X.1 or X.2 of a product.


----------



## Hound

How about OTA guide data for subs whose zip code straddles two DMAs.
I have been waiting one year for this upgrade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can get all
my HD locals OTA. I am paying $5 a month for non existent guide data.


----------



## Slordak

This receiver is exactly the same as the 921 from a software bug and support perspective. Lots of bugs, and vast amounts of time between the appearance of the bugs and their eventual correction.

At least the 622 didn't cost me $999 plus tax.


----------



## James Long

Please remember that this is a support forum and keep the insults to a minimum.
Thanks!


----------



## Hall

hoehemi1 said:


> If I would be Charlie I would feel embarrassed and have a serious chat with the guy that made me make this promise.


 Charlie *promised* nothing. He may have said it _should_ be out by some date or they were _planning_ on releasing it by some date, but no promise.


----------



## Hall

Hound said:


> How about OTA guide data for subs whose zip code straddles two DMAs. I have been waiting one year for this upgrade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can get all my HD locals OTA. I am paying $5 a month for non existent guide data.


 Once Dish works out the issue with sub-channel guide data, it will populate for ANY channel you pick up OTA (not including low-power stations). That may or may not remain tied to paying for the satellite-provided locals though. If your DMA doesn't have locals, you may be screwed.


----------



## bill-e

I just noticed I have 3.66. Was that a piracy update or was there fixes? I've not been in the loop for a while because work has gotten in the way of my off time 

Also, a comment with regard to missed software release dates. I've been acceptance testing and buying software for DOD for about 20 years and I know the exact number of times a software release came out on time with the functionality promised...Zero. I also know exactly the number of times that software was released with a reliability of at least 50% of the specified requirements....Zero. 
I'm not making excuses because there is no excuse IMO, I'm just saying that nobody should be surprised and Echostar definitely does not have a corner on the market with missed promises.


----------



## ChuckA

3.66 was released this week. It only contains a DST date change fix. Nothing more.


----------



## lujan

Someone should change the title of this thread...


----------



## bill-e

ChuckA said:


> 3.66 was released this week. It only contains a DST date change fix. Nothing more.


Thanks Chuck


----------



## JM Anthony

hoehemi1 said:


> I fully agree with you BUT to me the whole issue is not so much about another delay for 4.01 but the fact that E* CEO announced features of 4.01 to be released late last year (as a Christmas present to us) and 3 months later his team is still not able to deliver on his 'promise'. Charlie is not close enough to software development but one of his guys is. If I would be Charlie I would feel embarrassed and have a serious chat with the guy that made me make this promise.
> 
> Given that this is not the first time of 'broken promises' by E* and Charlie (anyone remembers the famous 921 moving release targets?) the real issue might be that Charlie does NOT feel embarrassed. Well, I would.
> 
> Based on past performance 4.01 will come, some things will have gotten fixed, some improvements will have been made and some stuff will be broken.


Get over it. You whiners need to get a life or at least get reality. You make it sound like you're the only one out there to sink $$ in a 921, 942 or whatever. Think software development is perfect?? For anybody?? Well, it ain't. So if you don't like E*, try D* or your local cable guys. Don't like that either? Go buy a big roll of tin foil, wrap your arms in it, connect it to your TV and make like a basketball ref signalling a made 3 pointer. Oh, yeah. One more thing. Salesmen and CEOs are always bullish on their products. Always.

John


----------



## whatchel1

I used to live and MS land and knew some of the developers there. There comment was that anyone that gets any of our new S/W in the 1st 6 mnts is gonna get the bugs that go with it. It takes time to work out the bugs. So IMHO give them the time to work out as many before release as possible. There are problems w/ the present version but I sure don't want something that is gonna be any worse.


----------



## wje

JM Anthony said:


> Go buy a big roll of tin foil, wrap your arms in it, connect it to your TV and make like a basketball ref signalling a made 3 pointer.
> John


Have you QA'ed that? (Sorry, its too early to be awake)


----------



## ssmith10pn

Has anyone heard if the side by side PIP will use the whole 16:9 landscape? I sure hope so.


----------



## lujan

ssmith10pn said:


> Has anyone heard if the side by side PIP will use the whole 16:9 landscape? I sure hope so.


I don't see why not. In fact, if it's not 16X9, then I don't want the side by side PIP.


----------



## James Long

Screenshots on Charlie Chat in December showed side by side using the full width.


----------



## ssmith10pn

Cool!
Because now the PIP window is only in the 4:3 landscape even when your watching a 16:9 broadcast.
This leads me to believe there may be hardware limits and software won't fix that.


----------



## Grandude

I hope the next release will move the current PIP into the corners instead of the way it is now in the 4:3 landscape. Side by side will probably be nice for some things but not all things.


----------



## Ron Barry

ssmith10pn said:


> Cool!
> Because now the PIP window is only in the 4:3 landscape even when your watching a 16:9 broadcast.
> This leads me to believe there may be hardware limits and software won't fix that.


What do you mean? My pip window is 16x9 when showing 16x9 and 4x3 when showing 4x3 content. Works like I would espect it. I don't recall it working any other way with my 622? I would expect the PIP side by side to work in a similar fashion.


----------



## Ron Barry

Grandude said:


> I hope the next release will move the current PIP into the corners instead of the way it is now in the 4:3 landscape. Side by side will probably be nice for some things but not all things.


Yeah... The position of the PIP window on 16x9 has always bothered me. Needs to be closer to the outer edge.


----------



## DP1

Ron Barry said:


> What do you mean? My pip window is 16x9 when showing 16x9 and 4x3 when showing 4x3 content. Works like I would espect it. I don't recall it working any other way with my 622? I would expect the PIP side by side to work in a similar fashion.


I think he basically meant the same thing you said in your post after this one.

That the PiP window (regardless of it's shape) is located in the 4x3 safe area or "landscape".

Sorta like how certain Networks' logos are done as well. Placed in an area thats not far out as one might like on the 16x9 broadcast because they put it in a position that can be used for the 4x3 version as well.


----------



## lujan

Ron Barry said:


> What do you mean? My pip window is 16x9 when showing 16x9 and 4x3 when showing 4x3 content...


Same here.


----------



## pcm

I am having the problem of my receiver freezing. This happens only when I watch NBC. I got my receiver replaced and still this freeze happens.

Receiver freeze happens in the following two cases:-

1. If I watch NBC Programs live, suddenly the receiver freezes.

2. If I watch recorded NBC programs, suddenly the receiver freezes. The freeze happens at the same place any number of times I watch the recorded program. The freeze can be avoided if I skip recorded program past the freeze location. This kind of freeze happens at random locations of the program. Once happened, the freeze happens always at the same location in the recorded program.

The only way to come out of the freeze situation is to do reset of the receiver.

Any hope that this problem will be fixed in the new release.

My signal strength is good on specific transponders for a given Satellite i.e. 119 or 110. So to check the signal strength what Satellite and transponders should I check?

Thanks
Chandra


----------



## Jim5506

Are you watching NBC OTA or satellite feed? If it's OTA, the station is probably putting out some garbage in its ATSC signal or their PSIP computer is in need of a reboot. Call them and tell them the problems you are having.


----------



## pcm

Jim5506 said:


> Are you watching NBC OTA or satellite feed? If it's OTA, the station is probably putting out some garbage in its ATSC signal or their PSIP computer is in need of a reboot. Call them and tell them the problems you are having.


I am using satellite feed...


----------



## etzeppy

pcm said:


> I am having the problem of my receiver freezing. This happens only when I watch NBC. I got my receiver replaced and still this freeze happens.
> 
> Receiver freeze happens in the following two cases:-
> 
> 1. If I watch NBC Programs live, suddenly the receiver freezes.
> 
> 2. If I watch recorded NBC programs, suddenly the receiver freezes. The freeze happens at the same place any number of times I watch the recorded program. The freeze can be avoided if I skip recorded program past the freeze location. This kind of freeze happens at random locations of the program. Once happened, the freeze happens always at the same location in the recorded program.
> 
> The only way to come out of the freeze situation is to do reset of the receiver.
> 
> Any hope that this problem will be fixed in the new release.
> 
> My signal strength is good on specific transponders for a given Satellite i.e. 119 or 110. So to check the signal strength what Satellite and transponders should I check?
> 
> Thanks
> Chandra


I saw the same thing with NBC live OTA a week or 2 ago. I only watch NBC for about an hour a week (Thursday night "My Name Is Earl" & "The Office") so I can't say how consistent the issue was. At the time I did not observe the problem with other channels. I don't think it has happened since. I assumed it was local broadcast issue. I'm in the Dallas area.


----------



## pcm

I live in San Jose. Is there anyone in San Jose having same problem...


----------



## elbodude

pcm said:


> I live in San Jose. Is there anyone in San Jose having same problem...


I am in Santa Clara. This happens to me when I watch HD DVR shows with CC turned on. When I turn CC off, problem goes away. No other problems to report, yet.


----------



## Hall

So is there a test release greater than L4.01 out in the stream yet ??


----------



## James Long

Perhaps ... although I suspect that since L401 is the goal at the moment so the idea of having "the next" version out there is kinda odd.


----------



## Hall

L4.01 will never see the light of day now. It's obviously flawed, hence it's failed, planned release. The issues they fix that stopped it will cause it to increment to 4.02, 4.03, or something higher.

There's a few members here or at SatGuys who can "see" what software is "in the stream" and I was curious if something's already being tested. We should hope that Dish doesn't say, "let's add this and this and that and a few other things while we're fixing the show-stopper" !!


----------



## Ron Barry

Why do you think L4.01 will never see the light of day? If I am not mistaking L4.01 was never streamed so that number has not been used. If it had been streamed and pulled back I could understand it, but based on reports here I don't see that being the case. They may chose to use this label or perhaps change it but that is an internal decision and L4.01 is just a label and from what I can tell it does not yet point to a set of code so I am not sure how it can be flawed. 

Based on the delay, one can assume that the Dish did not feel the code was at a state to be released and therefore pushed back the release date. From what I can see.. nothing more, nothing less, and I would be surprised that they would start rolling features in unless E* felt that they should skip this milestone and move on to the next. (There is no evidence that that has occurred ether)

Like you said.. there are guys around here that report this info. Even if new versions appeared in the streams, based on past stream reports I would not necessary equate it to rolling new features in to what is termed the L4.01 code base.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

The CC-freeze-reboot bug should be fixed in the next release (whatever it ends up being called).


----------



## Hall

Mark Lamutt said:


> The CC-freeze-reboot bug...


 Is that what stopped the L4.01 release ??

I wonder how many beta-testers normally use close-captioning ??  Then again, if Dish *touched* any code related to CC, they should make sure the real-world testers turn it on, whether they use/want it or not.


----------



## Eagles

Hall said:


> Is that what stopped the L4.01 release ??
> 
> I wonder how many beta-testers normally use close-captioning ??  Then again, if Dish *touched* any code related to CC, they should make sure the real-world testers turn it on, whether they use/want it or not.


I'm sure glad they are testing it. It is a necessity for me. Going all the way back to the 921, the CC has always been less than perfect. I must say that over time it has become better or more reliable. The main problem I see now with the 622 CC is that the display options do not really work as advertised. For someone who uses CC all of the time this is a great option when working properly. It really enhances your viewing pleasure and allows you to make the CC much more viewer friendly and less noticeable.


----------



## James Long

Hall said:


> Is that what stopped the L4.01 release ??


That would be speculation ... The delay it isn't a puzzle to be figured out. There could be many issues or one main issue. It could even be some problem that doesn't exist in L365/L366 that E8 doesn't want to introduce. E* will never give the exact reason for any delay so speculation is kinda pointless.


Hall said:


> I wonder how many beta-testers normally use close-captioning ??


Let me speculate by saying that it would be a fair bet to say that some never turn off close-captioning. Betas are people just like the members of this forum ... if the people in this forum use a core feature of the receiver the betas will be using it too.


----------



## JM Anthony

Since we've all seen the impact of software releases that weren't quite ready for prime time, I can wait patiently until the next release is ready, regardless of how it's numbered. My 622 is pretty stable right now and for the most part, watchable.

John


----------



## kmcnamara

James Long said:


> E* will never give the exact reason for any delay so *speculation is kinda pointless*.





James Long said:


> *Let me speculate* by saying that it would be a fair bet to say that some never turn off close-captioning.


----------



## James Long

No sense of humor?


----------



## lakebum431

JM Anthony said:


> Since we've all seen the impact of software releases that weren't quite ready for prime time, I can wait patiently until the next release is ready, regardless of how it's numbered. My 622 is pretty stable right now and for the most part, watchable.
> 
> John


I agree 100%


----------



## whatchel1

I'm getting the same problem that has been mentioned from the Kansas City station. I view the HD via sat. By reading this thread I'm seeing a common complaint that the NBC's seem to be having a problem.


----------



## Hall

James Long said:


> No sense of humor?


 This isn't the first time that I've _speculated_ about something and you point it out.... If we're only allowed to state definitive, proven facts here, your board will get awfully boring.


----------



## marcuscthomas

I don't mind the speculation, but prefer the facts. What I wish is that E would just tell us what is going on rather than have us speculate. Do they not yet understand that their power users are on these boards? Just get on here and say, "We are having a problem with such-n-such and it will likely be a two to four weeks delay until we roll out the next version of software. Thank you for your patience."

Is this flawed thinking?


----------



## Hall

marcuscthomas said:


> I don't mind the speculation, but prefer the facts. What I wish is that E would just tell us what is going on rather than have us speculate.


 Dish could simply stop announcing any planned features for receivers and when they expect to release them. That way there'd be no one quoting what was said on a Tech Chat or Charlie Chat or what a tech support rep told them via phone or e-mail or people at websites who have "inside" contacts and post rumours (or gossip). Keep their plans internal. Problem solved. There would be no "L4.01 scheduled for release on 3/1" threads and upset people when it's not released "on time". When no one knows what is supposed to be included, no one can complain that problem "X" was supposed to be fixed but wasn't.


----------



## James Long

It is a catch 22 ... They mention an upcoming version to let us know that cool things are coming and they have not spent the last five/six months sitting back doing nothing. Perhaps a target date should not be mentioned, but people are going to get ticked at E* just as much for not having upgrades "in the pipe" as they do for having a delay on an update. Whether or not they mention a target someone is going to be upset.

What would upset more people ... beyond those here that follow DBS as a hobby or interest ... would be to release something that wasn't ready. That is a more important concern.

This thread was started based on the (semi-)public comments on the tech chat and the comments made then. This isn't a rumor or internal leak based thread. I agree (I hope) with your feeling toward those ... and prefer that E* keep their secrets. Even though it seems contrary to speculating about why something has not been released.


----------



## marcuscthomas

James Long said:


> It is a catch 22 ...


I appreciate the release of the tech chat information and hope E continues to do it. Of course they need to to keep their customers from being tempted to jump ship every time the opposition introduces something new.

However, their is a particularly vocal following of "power" users who follow the tech chat and DBSTALK (and other forums). A little bone thrown to those people occasionally would quell a great deal of our ranting and speculation.

I agree that it is a tough situation. I, for one, will continue to seek out these forums for the rumor, speculation, rants, and facts. Compared to the information that E puts out to its general public, it's all good to me.


----------



## Hall

marcuscthomas said:


> A little bone thrown to those people occasionally would quell a great deal of our ranting and speculation.


 To repeat what James said, it's a catch-22. Ask the 50x and 510 customers if NBR is working on their DVRs yet... Dish announced on a Chat that it was coming.


----------



## Ron Barry

marcuscthomas said:


> I don't mind the speculation, but prefer the facts. What I wish is that E would just tell us what is going on rather than have us speculate. Do they not yet understand that their power users are on these boards? Just get on here and say, "We are having a problem with such-n-such and it will likely be a two to four weeks delay until we roll out the next version of software. Thank you for your patience."
> 
> Is this flawed thinking?


Isn't that what I posted and added to the home page? Yes there was no reasons given for the delay, but there was indication of such. March 1st was a target date. Not a promised date not something written in stone (I know you did not indicate this marcus, but others have in the past).

Based on my exprience and you can see this out in wild (Just look at FireFox as an example). As one gets close you go into a stabilization period you keep stabilizing until you feel confident then you release. The end point is not known until you reach it but you also draw lines in the sand and if the line needs to move.. you move it. March 1st was a line and it got moved out 2 to 3 weeks. This does not mean that date is promised either. It can also move...

As for providing this information. As James said, it is a catch 22. People want to hear that things are going on and what is coming down the pipe. Also they want to have an idea when. D* in the past (Looks like somethings are changing) took a lot of heat for playing it close to the chest. E* takes heat for indicating what they are planning to do because they miss dates. I can tell you now.. If E* came out and said that they are going to provide X feature with no indication of when people would also argue that. And if E* went into close door mode, People would be screaming they they are not do anything and not keeping customers informed. This is one situation where you can't please everyone..

As for the little Bone, Well indicating the delay I consider tossing a bone rather then just silently missing the target date mentioned on Tech chat. Also, From my personal experience upper managements target date sometimes don't match what the actually people doing the work feel is reality. This is one reason why I take all dates and time frames mentioned in Tech chats with a grain of salt. If they come great. If not.. I personally don't worry much.


----------



## Hall

Ron Barry said:


> Also, From my personal experience upper managements target date sometimes don't match what the actually people doing the work feel is reality. This is one reason why I take all dates and time frames mentioned in Tech chats with a grain of salt. If they come great. If not.. I personally don't worry much.


 That said, I agree with Dish's engineering group and am glad to see that they "won". To many companies set a release date and no matter what, it's released on that date. I've seen issues reported in an early beta, issue still exists in a later beta, and when the final product is released, guess what ?? Yeap, issue still exists... It's not like they didn't know about the problem. Did they fix bigger issues in the meantime ?? Probably so... Things have to be prioritized and some things don't make the cut (in time).


----------



## Ron Barry

Most definitely Hall... I have seen it happen in the worse of ways... I have also seen releases that all parties agree is a big step forward in both feature and reliability to hit the wild and fall flat on their face. Something everyone missed because people tend to test the things they know and get tunnel vision from time to time. All it takes is one nasty bug that was not covered by the regression tests, QA team and Beta testers to ruin the perception of what overall is a good release.


----------



## dahauss

I do hope the release fixed the jittery video? Its to the point where I cant watch TV and dish wont tell me anything..


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Jittery video has been one of the priorities.

Hall, if I were to _speculate_, I would _speculate_ that there were very good reasons that the March 1st date wasn't met. They programming team was under intense pressure to get it done and released. The fact that it hasn't been released yet is a pretty good indication that there was at least one thing seriously enough "not quite right" to keep it from going out. That's all I can say about it.

CC testing - I regularly test CC specifically because I know how important is to Eagles. On my channels, it's quite a bit better than it used to be. I hope it ends up being better on his channels, and on all the rest that rely on it.


----------



## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> CC testing - I regularly test CC specifically because I know how important is to Eagles. On my channels, it's quite a bit better than it used to be. I hope it ends up being better on his channels, and on all the rest that rely on it.


Mark, many thanks again. I'm looking forward to the next release.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Those familiar with the Windmill marker from Back to the Future III will understand the "point of no return"...

Sometimes in writing/testing software... you have points of no return for release dates. Because of testing and regression testing involved, there are points beyond which you cannot add new code OR remove unfinished code without moving the date.

So... say March 1st is your target release... there is probably a date in early Feb that, because of regression testing involved, you not only can't add any more new features to the March 1st release BUT you can't pull out code either...

So if in late Feb you find a piece of code that is a major problem, you can't just yank it out because you then have to re-test everything else... so you have to push back on the March 1st release if you can't get it fixed in time.

On a related, but different note... sometimes when this situation occurs... management/marketing will come back to the programmers and say... ok, we missed March 1st... so how much did we miss it by? If the answer is a couple of days or a week, then they plug ahead... but if the answer is a couple of weeks... marketing/management may decide they are late already so why not add another new feature to the mix and set a new date farther in the future.

Lots of things happen behind closed doors... all of which actually makes sense if you are in the room... but to the customer waiting for a release, it's tough.

Most companies try not to announce things too far in advance for the very reason discussed in this thread. No announcement means no delay because no expectations are there! But sometimes you have to announce to keep the competition jumping... and sometimes things happen at the last minute after you have made your formal announcement. The world isn't perfect.


----------



## James Long

And, of course, that is all speculation. Don't read it as a "why L401 has not been released" explanation - only (as I'm sure it was intended) as a "how testing works" general description.

This weekend is becoming a Y2K for a lot of companies ... I don't know what E* has to do that is different, but MANY companies are scrambling to make sure their computers will be on the right time at 3:01am Sunday morning (two minutes after 1:59am Sunday). Which, IMHO is more important than L401.

So many variables!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Yep... speculation based on my experience in how other companies deal with software releases... but not necessarily how Dish handles them OR related to the proposed L4.01 release that didn't happen.

I just used the March 1st date to illustrate a point that folks could identify with.


----------



## yahknow1

Sorry if this is a "newb" question, but is there any way to know how close the new patch is to completion? Is the only way to know for sure you got the patch is to keep looking at your specific version number?


----------



## ChuckA

Yep. Look at your receiver's version or look here. When it hits the streets you will see lots of chatter here about it, for sure. There is no way to know exactly when it will be available.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

You guys all know when it comes before I do! I can promise you this, though - it won't come over the weekend. Next window will be late Monday/early Tuesday.


----------



## dclaryjr

Personally, I'm not looking forward to the channel remap--I like having the HD channels grouped together. However it's strange having one channel lineup in the living room (622) and a different one in the bedroom (211).

Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TX


----------



## Hall

Disable it then


----------



## dclaryjr

Hall said:


> Disable it then


How?


----------



## lakebum431

dclaryjr said:


> Personally, I'm not looking forward to the channel remap--I like having the HD channels grouped together. However it's strange having one channel lineup in the living room (622) and a different one in the bedroom (211).
> 
> Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TX


They are still grouped together, they are just mirrored beside their SD counterpart too.


----------



## James Long

dclaryjr said:


> How?


MENU-6-8 Local Channels

Dead center of the screen is "Chan Display" - Select that

There is an Enable/Disable selection for "DishHD Channels" ...
Set that to disable and you won't see the new mapdowns.

(The selection on the left control local channel mapdowns (local stations mapped down to their OTA number.)

Select Done as you exit and your selection is saved.

BTW: The HD remain "all together" in the 9420+ channels. The mapdown doesn't move them, it just copies them so regardless of the setting the HDs remain together as one block (except locals - which were never in that block).


----------



## James Long

FYI: The above instructions are for a ViP-211 as requested ...
I received a PM asking why it doesn't work on the 622 - the 9420's downmap isn't ON the 622 until "L4.01".
Hopefully this clears up the confusion.


----------



## dclaryjr

James Long said:


> BTW: The HD remain "all together" in the 9420+ channels. The mapdown doesn't move them, it just copies them so regardless of the setting the HDs remain together as one block (except locals - which were never in that block).


Thanks! The 211 is more in the other half's domain but that's good to know once the 622 has it.

Dave


----------



## ssmith10pn

I saw the Side by side PIP on a 625 this Weekend. Looks great streched out to 16:9


----------



## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> You guys all know when it comes before I do! I can promise you this, though - it won't come over the weekend. Next window will be late Monday/early Tuesday.


Just curious. Why are there certain windows of opportunity to push an update? Why can't an update be sent at any time?


----------



## Hunter Green

It's bad news to push an update just before times when you have fewer techs around, like weekends.


----------



## TBoneit

I'm thinking Mondays could be busy at the call centers too.... which would be why it would be late Monday.

I would actually expect more techs on weekends/evenings as that is when most users are free to call.


----------



## James Long

TBoneit said:


> I'm thinking Mondays could be busy at the call centers too.... which would be why it would be late Monday.


Generally changes in available firmware are done in the evening ... most would not see a "Monday" change until Tuesday morning.


TBoneit said:


> I would actually expect more techs on weekends/evenings as that is when most users are free to call.


It is the level of tech that is the question. There may or may not be enough front line techs to take complaints IF there were a bad version released (a good reason to release in waves as E* generally does). The techs that need to be available are those with the ability to do something ... perhaps to stop the firmware upload or revert. Those guys and gals (and especially the ones with the authority to make such a decision) are likely to be at point in their carrier where they get weekends off.

Besides, as you note, Mondays can be busy without an update. Tuesday morning is better.


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## Slordak

ssmith10pn said:


> I saw the Side by side PIP on a 625 this Weekend. Looks great streched out to 16:9


The thing I've always found a little irritating about PIP on the 622 was the fact that the PIP window isn't flush against the edge. If I'm watching a 4x3 source, and the PIP window is 4x3, but the display is 16x9, why not have the PIP window all the way against the corner of the screen, to minimize the overlap? This would allow one to get most out of the black bar / gray bar side area.

Hence, my question here is with regards to the side-by-side PIP... Does it make use of all of the 16x9 display area? Or is there still something funny going on where it looks like it was tuned for 4x3 displays?


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## James Long

Slordak said:


> Hence, my question here is with regards to the side-by-side PIP... Does it make use of all of the 16x9 display area? Or is there still something funny going on where it looks like it was tuned for 4x3 displays?


With the smaller PIP windows I believe E* was trying to make sure the PIP window was always on the screen and not lost to overscan. They have done an excellent job! (Overcompensating.)

The side-by-side isn't PIP as much as it is split screen. I see no reason why it won't fill the entire width, although with proportional pictures one will have a letterbox effect unless they do some cropping of each image (half of your screen could be black if you are watching two HD feeds in the side-by-side PIP unless they crop).

The SD side-by-side on a 16x9 display will have less of a letterbox effect (assuming they keep the image proportional and don't crop). Looking at the 625 should give an idea, but remember that the 625 is intended for 4:3 TVs. Adjust accordingly.


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## lujan

James Long said:


> ... Looking at the 625 should give an idea, but remember that the 625 is intended for 4:3 TVs. Adjust accordingly.


Does anyone have a picture of how the 625 looks with the side by side PIP?


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## ssmith10pn

lujan said:


> Does anyone have a picture of how the 625 looks with the side by side PIP?


Sorry I didn't take a picture.
I was at my son in law's house and he can't afford HD so he has a 625 on a 16:9 Infocus Projector.
The side by side looked cramped up in 4:3 but when I stretched the image it looked pretty normal.
*Note:
The stretching was done by the projector sice it was a 625 receiver.


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## Mark Lamutt

The side by side PIP does use the entire 16x9 display. On my set, I lose a little bit off the sides because of overscan.

Software doesn't usually get sent over the weekends because programmers like to have some weekends off like the rest of us. And, software downloads _usually_ happen overnight (not always, but usually). Ergo, late Monday/early Tuesday is the next available "window" that meets both of those factors.


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## Slordak

That's good to know, i.e. that it does use the entire display area. I understand that the original PIP positioning may have been a little conservative due to overscan concerns, but even accounting for that, it's still too far away from the corner.

I'll be looking forward to seeing it.


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## Hall

Mark Lamutt said:


> And, software downloads _usually_ happen overnight (not always, but usually). Ergo, late Monday/early Tuesday is the next available "window" that meets both of those factors.


 I've never seen a s/w update or download take place on my Dish receivers, though I have seen it with my Time Warner box once or twice. On the TWC box, the box basically turns off or goes into a non-outputting mode. The front-panel display then turns into a 4-digit counter (memory addresses ??) while the download takes place. Finally, it reboots....

How does it work on Dish receivers ?? I thought I'd read that it downloads the software in the background (while you're using it). It doesn't "install" itself until when ?? Does it wait for some period of inactivity ?? Does it prompt you that it needs to be restarted and you can allow it or make it wait ??


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## Ron Barry

It does not download in the background. If your receiver is in standby mode, is not actively recording, and there is an update targeted for your receiver it will start downloading the update. During the download you cannot do anything to the receiver. After the download has occurred, the box is rebooted and you have the new software.


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## James Long

Hall said:


> I've never seen a s/w update or download take place on my Dish receivers,


Most people turn off their TVs when they are not watching ... and the design of the receiver is to only update if both TV1 and TV2 are off and not recording. Unless you turn off both TV1 and TV2 and leave your TV (monitor) on you won't see updates (although you may hear the fan noise when the receiver reboots at the end).

If your TV is on (you like watching the screen saver?) you will see the "do not disturb" box or download box. I suppose if you are "lucky" enough to turn on the TV during an update you will catch it.


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## Mr.72

With the 3.66 update, it worked like this for me:

sometime in the middle of the night, it aparently downloaded the software.

then the box froze up tight and would not do a single thing without a hard reset.

which was fantastic since it missed a whole bunch of recordings during the 18 or so hours between when it froze without any alert, and when I finally went to watch my basketball game which I knew should be on there, and found the box saying "Press SELECT ..." and frozen without my game on it 

So yeah, thanks a lot Dish. Is there ANY WAY to turn off this automatic update and make it ONLY do it manually where I can watch it and verify it comes back from the process cleanly and doesn't miss recordings? This freeze-up-on-update feature frankly is much more fitting for a DirecTV DVR.


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## ChuckA

The only way to disable the updates is to unplug the 622. Of course that will also prevent your timers from working, but that's up to you.


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## TechniKal

If I'm not mistaken, the update occurs when the box resets itself after updating the guide data. You can prevent that from happening by setting a timer to occur at the time frame you have your updates set for. So -set a timer to occur every 3 hours or so and it should never update. I don't know if this will also prevent it from downloading your guide data as well, though.

FWIW - my update to 3.66 worked fine - no lockups.


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## Mr.72

yeah I thought about setting a low-priority timer to accomplish this. Maybe after 4.01 gets here I will.


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## ChuckA

It has to be an auto-tune timer to take the 622 out of standby mode. Setting a timer for a recording won't do it.


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## Mr.72

cool i'll try that.


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## tnsprin

TechniKal said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the update occurs when the box resets itself after updating the guide data. You can prevent that from happening by setting a timer to occur at the time frame you have your updates set for. So -set a timer to occur every 3 hours or so and it should never update. I don't know if this will also prevent it from downloading your guide data as well, though.
> 
> FWIW - my update to 3.66 worked fine - no lockups.


Updates to software do not usually occur at the smae time as the guide update or your nightly maintenance. Several times mine occurred in the middle of the morning, but at other times as well.

As noted elsewhere, they may be doing a partial rollout of 4.01 on March 15.


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## Hall

tnsprin said:


> As noted elsewhere, they may be doing a partial rollout of 4.01 on March 15.


 And all boxes should receive it, assuming no problems and if so, you probably _do not want it_, within a week. Patience is a virtue....


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