# 1080i or 1080p?



## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

Does D* broadcast all HD channels in 1080i or 1080p?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Channels are in the format provided by the content provider; either 480i, 720p, or 1080i. DIRECTV Cinema is presented in 1080p/24.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

1080p is not an HD broadcast standard. It's only used for a few of the PPV movie channels.


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks, The representative from D* tried to tell me, that all HD channels are broadcast in 1080P, I said not to my knowledge and asked her to name one that was, she said they are all 1080P and if the local stations change to 1080i, it was because they wanted to. I asked her to name one Network provider doing 1080P,,she said, all of them->:nono:


Not a good way to start out for a possible new customer like me (LIES)...Might stay with TWC because of this->

HH


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

litzdog911 said:


> 1080p is not an HD broadcast standard. It's only used for a few of the PPV movie channels.


This is a false statement.

I'm pretty sure you know better but if you don't, check this link:

http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a_81.pdf

Table 7.3 on page 17.

Ratified almost nine years ago.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

HuskerHarley said:


> Thanks, The representative from D* tried to tell me, that all HD channels are broadcast in 1080P, I said not to my knowledge and asked her to name one that was, she said they are all 1080P and if the local stations change to 1080i, it was because they wanted to. I asked her to name one Network provider doing 1080P,,she said, all of them->:nono:
> 
> Not a good way to start out for a possible new customer like me (LIES)...Might stay with TWC because of this->
> 
> HH


Great googly moogly.

Please consider giving DIRECTV another shot, but we're a great support community that will give you better answers than many CSRs.

Having experience with TWC and DIRECTV you'll find a lot more to like with DIRECTV.


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Great googly moogly.
> 
> Please consider giving DIRECTV another shot, but we're a great support community that will give you better answers than many CSRs.
> 
> Having experience with TWC and DIRECTV you'll find a lot more to like with DIRECTV.


I'm over it now...I'll be going with DIRECTV...

HH


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

harsh said:


> This is a false statement.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you know better but if you don't, check this link:
> 
> ...


It might not be as "false" as you imply, as NOBODY is using it for broadcasting.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

HuskerHarley said:


> Thanks, The representative from D* tried to tell me, that all HD channels are broadcast in 1080P, I said not to my knowledge and asked her to name one that was, she said they are all 1080P and if the local stations change to 1080i, it was because they wanted to. I asked her to name one Network provider doing 1080P,,she said, all of them->:nono:
> 
> Not a good way to start out for a possible new customer like me (LIES)...Might stay with TWC because of this->
> 
> HH


Was this really a DirectV rep or was it someone at a store wearing a DirecTV shirt? Those people are nearly always working for some DirecTV dealer not for DirecTV, the rep gets paid based on the customers they sign up. Most of them unfortunately know very little about DirecTV....


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

texasbrit said:


> Was this really a DirectV rep or was it someone at a store wearing a DirecTV shirt? Those people are nearly always working for some DirecTV dealer not for DirecTV, the rep gets paid based on the customers they sign up. Most of them unfortunately know very little about DirecTV....


Those guys working at a store are fast talkers and will provide mostly half truths.


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## RBTO (Apr 11, 2009)

We're talking about 1080p24 here so you can let it go for sure! On a typical HD display, you won't see any difference since the 1080i60 is converted to a 1080p type signal before its displayed. If the cadence is properly detected by your receiver, there won't be any difference. A 1080p24 signal is usually associated with a filmed movie and actually has less bandwidth than a 1080i60 signal so if you're getting a 1080i60 signal, you're losing nothing in content.

Actually, it would be to Directv's benefit if all their movie content could be broadcast in 1080p24 to save on bandwidth, but many people don't have displays that can handle it. Instead, Directv uses 1080p for hype to make it sound like something exclusive and special.

Think about it like the mobster who was pouring cement around an informant's feet. The informant said, "that's a lot of cement". The mobster said, "don't worry about it."


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

HuskerHarley said:


> Thanks, The representative from D* tried to tell me, that all HD channels are broadcast in 1080P, I said not to my knowledge and asked her to name one that was, she said they are all 1080P and if the local stations change to 1080i, it was because they wanted to. I asked her to name one Network provider doing 1080P,,she said, all of them->:nono:
> 
> Not a good way to start out for a possible new customer like me (LIES)...Might stay with TWC because of this->
> 
> HH


I'm glad that you are over it, but big difference between a lie and misinformed CSR. When I've talked to Time Warner on occasion, I've gotten that from them as well. Could they improve their training? Probably, but that can be true for all call centers.


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

texasbrit said:


> Was this really a DirectV rep or was it someone at a store wearing a DirecTV shirt? Those people are nearly always working for some DirecTV dealer not for DirecTV, the rep gets paid based on the customers they sign up. Most of them unfortunately know very little about DirecTV....


I clicked on the DTV link at the top of page and called the 800#.


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

dpeters11 said:


> I'm glad that you are over it, but big difference between a lie and (*misinformed*) CSR. When I've talked to Time Warner on occasion, I've gotten that from them as well. Could they improve their training? Probably, but that can be true for all call centers.


Yes ..very big difference between a lie and uninformed customer service representative but it starts with someone telling them to put that kind of information out in the first place knowing darn well it's nothing more than fabrication to draw customers in.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

HuskerHarley said:


> Not a good way to start out for a possible new customer like me (LIES)...Might stay with TWC because of this->
> 
> HH


 There is a big difference between a LIE, which is intentional, and IGNORANCE, which results from a lack of knowledge. I believe your CSR was suffering from the latter rather than the former.


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## John Strk (Oct 16, 2009)

I've heard the D* sales pitch clowns that walk around bugging customers at Best Buy saying that D* broadcasts all HD channels in 1080p. What a laugh :lol:


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

"HuskerHarley" said:


> Yes ..very big difference between a lie and uninformed customer service representative but it starts with someone telling them to put that kind of information out in the first place knowing darn well it's nothing more than fabrication to draw customers in.


Big assumption. More likely a misunderstanding of the person who gave you the info.


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## spanishannouncetable (Apr 23, 2002)

Remember -










:lol:


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

As I was speaking to the CSR, I basically called "BS" on 1080P, she asked if I would like to talk with someone with more technical knowledge, I said sure, put em on, after some time, she came back on the line and informed me that it was 1080P, I once again asked her to name one provider (ABC,NBC,FOX,CBS,,,etc.) broadcasting in 1080P, she said, after another longer hold, DTV broadcast all HD in 1080P.

Bottom line,,,she's not at fault, it's ((DTV)) for bending the truth to make sales-->IMO.

I'm still gonna switch to DTV, but, I don't trust them!-->:contract:

HH


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

HuskerHarley said:


> As I was speaking to the CSR, I basically called "BS" on 1080P, she asked if I would like to talk with someone with more technical knowledge, I said sure, put em on, after some time, she came back on the line and informed me that it was 1080P, I once again asked her to name one provider (ABC,NBC,FOX,CBS,,,etc.) broadcasting in 1080P, she said, after another longer hold, DTV broadcast all HD in 1080P.
> 
> Bottom line,,,she's not at fault, it's ((DTV)) for bending the truth to make sales-->IMO.
> 
> ...


She talked to someone sitting next to her. There is zero value in making that lie a sales tactic. What they do not do well is educate their people. So, you basically believe the story that some random person told you that they verified it with someone technical so you can believe that a company is just outright lying to make a sale or two. The more likely scenario is that she didn't check anything with anyone "technical."


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

tonyd79 said:


> She talked to someone sitting next to her. There is zero value in making that lie a sales tactic. What they do not do well is educate their people. So, you basically believe the story that some random person told you that they verified it with someone technical so you can believe that a company is just outright lying to make a sale or two. The more likely scenario is that she didn't check anything with anyone "technical."


(((There is zero value in making that lie a sales tactic.)))

I think it's a very good tactic for them, not everyone knows the difference between Interlaced & Progressive, any thing to land a sale is the motto of some salespeople.

I've been around the block more than once, and "I" know when someone is blowing ____ __ __ ___! I knew it wasn't being broadcast in 1080P from the providers, she was trying to convince me that they (DTV) was passing along an original broadcast 1080P signal via their 1080P transmission,,,When she offered me a chat with a TECH and she came back on the line,,well,,,RED-FLAG!

Hell,,,I wish it was 1080P,,My Pioneer Pro-151 & 111 both love being fed 1080P!!

Like I said, I don't trust DTV, DISH or TWC but when your faced with 3 piles of crap, it gets hard trying to figure out which blend will you be happiest with.-->

HH


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

At least you got all pertinent info here... and now can relax with big smile... You are smarter and more knowledgeable and these &^%$&^% didn't fool you !


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HuskerHarley said:


> Like I said...
> 
> HH


I've been reading this thread and sort of laughing at the U-who rep who knocked on my door. She didn't have a clue, but "they have blu-ray quality" !rolling


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

P Smith said:


> At least you got all pertinent info here... and now can relax with big smile... You are smarter and more knowledgeable and these &^%$&^% didn't fool you !


:goodjob:

Ya got that right,,Thanks to help I received in the thread about, not getting screwed, I'm armed with just enough information to be satisfied.

HH


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

tonyd79 said:


> ... The more likely scenario is that she didn't check anything with anyone "technical."


But I wonder is it realistic to think a front-line CSR sitting in a cubical at a call center somewhere would have anyone truly technical in areas like this at their disposal?

I mean I doubt if a CSR can simply pick up a phone and call an engineer or technician in Broadcast Operations or something and ask such questions. :sure:


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## skatingrocker17 (Jun 24, 2010)

harsh said:


> This is a false statement.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you know better but if you don't, check this link:
> 
> ...


It's possible but there's no one in the US broadcasting in 1080p. My guess would be because not all HDTVs will accept a 1080p signal. Not that all of them accept both 1080i or 720p either but the vast majority do. I had an old CRT HDTV in 2003 that only accepted 1080i HD signal but not 720p.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

skatingrocker17 said:


> It's possible but there's no one in the US broadcasting in 1080p. My guess would be because not all HDTVs will accept a 1080p signal. Not that all of them accept both 1080i or 720p either but the vast majority do. I had an old CRT HDTV in 2003 that only accepted 1080i HD signal but not 720p.


You are mixing inputs and OTA signals ... While you can't get external signal in 720p, your TV's tuner and videoprocessor handle the format pretty well - just tune to that 720p channels.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

"HoTat2" said:


> But I wonder is it realistic to think a front-line CSR sitting in a cubical at a call center somewhere would have anyone truly technical in areas like this at their disposal?
> 
> I mean I doubt if a CSR can simply pick up a phone and call an engineer or technician in Broadcast Operations or something and ask such questions. :sure:


That is what I am thinking. The guy got played by a front line person and he declares the company lies. Too funny.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

tonyd79 said:


> That is what I am thinking. The guy got played by a front line person and he declares the company lies. *Too funny.*


It's funny how you want to blame the person, while she/he definitely represent the company, e.g. she/he is the company (OK partially  ).


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> That is what I am thinking. The guy got played by a front line person and he declares the company lies. Too funny.


That person IS the company at that time. They are a paid agent of the company. The person started off being ignorant (if we assume the best), but followed up with a very suspicious "I'll check with someone more technical", which you point out is unlikely.

That part may well have been a lie, but who knows, she could have asked another more geekie person in the call center who was "more technical".

I'm not sure what the point is, other than what the OP actually said: *You can't trust a single thing that any D* rep says.* See the fiasco about 24 month free hd access. (I just went through it yesterday). I'm kind enough to not say that I was lied to, but three levels of D* people completely misinformed me. Fortunately, I knew they were in error, and finally got to someone who actually knew what they were doing.

If this guy "got played", he got played by D* and dismissing it as a lowly front line person (therefore the company is off the hook), won't play in the consumer world, and would be very unlikely to play in court.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

"P Smith" said:


> It's funny how you want to blame the person, while she/he definitely represent the company, e.g. she/he is the company (OK partially  ).


Yawn. The rep is the company is nonsense. A bad rep is a bad rep. It happens to every company.


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

tonyd79 said:


> That is what I am thinking. The guy got played by a front line person and he declares the company lies. Too funny.





tonyd79 said:


> Yawn. The rep is the company is nonsense. A bad rep is a bad rep. It happens to every company.


OK Smart Guy,,,

First, I didn't get played, I called them out on a claim of an included product/feature, I knew they could not possibly be delivering. I asked here to confirm, what I already know and in the 1% chance I was wrong, I would get the 101 and offer my apologies to DTV.

Second, I don't care how much perfume is on a TURD,,eventually it wears off and you still have the TURD...In other-words-> I don't care how much it's sugarcoated, it's still a LIE!

I called back and once again when asked, I got the same answer, 1080P, so, they have been given this info to relay to prospective customers,,DTV is distorting the Truth or in my words: A LIE!

Definition of a LIE

1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

2. something intended or serving to convey a false impression

3. an inaccurate or false statement.

4.to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly, as with intent to deceive.

5. to express what is false; convey a false impression.

HH


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

veryoldschool said:


> It might not be as "false" as you imply, as NOBODY is using it for broadcasting.


Whether it is used or not, a standard for 1080p HD video for DTH satellite broadcast exists and is a ratified by the organization in charge of such things (Advanced Television Systems Committee). A similar standard, A/53, for OTA also exists (regardless of whether or not it is currently being used).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

skatingrocker17 said:


> It's possible but there's no one in the US broadcasting in 1080p. My guess would be because not all HDTVs will accept a 1080p signal. Not that all of them accept both 1080i or 720p either but the vast majority do. I had an old CRT HDTV in 2003 that only accepted 1080i HD signal but not 720p.


A standard doesn't have to be implemented or widely used to exist. Standards are the egg and implementation is the chicken.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

harsh said:


> Whether it is used or not, a standard for 1080p HD video for DTH satellite broadcast exists and is a ratified by the organization in charge of such things (Advanced Television Systems Committee). A similar standard, A/53, for OTA also exists (regardless of whether or not it is currently being used).


Yes, but if nobody is, and more likely never will, use it for broadcast, what's the point?

Had the original post been: 1080p is not an HD broadcast standard *in use
*
You wouldn't have been able to nit-pick it.

Pointing out a standard that isn't used offers no value to the discussion.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

harsh said:


> A standard doesn't have to be implemented or widely used to exist. Standards are the egg and implementation is the chicken.


If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make any noise?

If a standard exists and nobody ever uses it, does it really matter?

:lol:


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

I wonder if the D* receivers can be set to upscale an HD signal to 1080p. In the settings, if you say native, it will display at the original broadcasters signal. But there is also a notation that an HDMI cable is required for 1080P. That's probably where the confusion is. 

I think that some of you connected via HDMI and have a 1080P capable tv, can verify that, if you press on the format button on the remote. Mine reads 1080i, but then my set displays at 1080I and 480P. 720P downconverts to 480P on my set, so I have 480P and 1080I checked.


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

P Smith said:


> You are mixing inputs and OTA signals ... While you can't get external signal in 720p, your TV's tuner and videoprocessor handle the format pretty well - just tune to that 720p channels.


 I also have a CRT set. It will not display 720P. What it will do is downconvert a 720P signal to 480P. My set displays at 480I, 480P, and 1080I. So I set my receivers to 480P, which upscale a 480I signal to 480P (a much better SD picture) and to 1080I which will upscale 720P to 1080I.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

n3vino said:


> I wonder if the D* receivers can be set to upscale an HD signal to 1080p.


"no", they can pass 1080p/24, but it must be broadcast that way.
Even if you only select 1080p, the receiver will output 1080i if the signal/program isn't 1080p/24.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

n3vino said:


> I also have a CRT set. It will not display 720P. What it will do is downconvert a 720P signal to 480P. My set displays at 480I, 480P, and 1080I. So I set my receivers to 480P, which upscale a 480I signal to 480P (a much better SD picture) and to 1080I which will upscale 720P to 1080I.


You didn't mentioned the model of TV.
CRT ? Only 480p and 1080i - sorry, I don't believe you; 
HD OTA signals from beginning was in 480p/720p/1080i (it's ATSC standard !) - is your TV has ATSC tuner ? If answer yes, then videoprocessor do support all three resolution.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

n3vino said:


> I also have a CRT set. It will not display 720P. What it will do is downconvert a 720P signal to 480P. My set displays at 480I, 480P, and 1080I. So I set my receivers to 480P, which upscale a 480I signal to 480P (a much better SD picture) and to 1080I which will upscale 720P to 1080I.


Think what P. Smith is trying to say is that even older CRT HDTVs and no doubt some early LCD and plasma displays as well may not be able to receive certain presently common broadcast formats today like 720p as an external input, but from the off-air ATSC tuner (if it has one) it most assuredly can.

Of course what it does with it for display, natively as is, or up or down convert it, as in your case, is another story.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> You didn't mentioned the model of TV.
> CRT ? Only 480p and 1080i - sorry, I don't believe you;
> HD OTA signals from beginning was in 480p/720p/1080i (it's ATSC standard !) - is your TV has ATSC tuner ? If answer yes, then videoprocessor do support all three resolution.


Well maybe you should.
I had a early CRT [Sony] RPTV that displayed 1080i, but for 720p, it downcoverted to 480 and then doubled to 960.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> Well maybe you should.
> I had a early CRT [Sony] RPTV that displayed 1080i, but for 720p, it downcoverted to 480 and then doubled to 960.


I thought they downscaled 720p to 540p and doubled it to 1080i or displayed it at 540p? I think that's what mine do, I believe there's even a setting to tell it if you want to use 540p or 1080i. I believe they also upscale 480i/480p to 540p and display it that way.

And yes there were some that just plain wouldn't accept a 720p signal (only a few of those). These were back in the days of HD monitors, not HDTVs. Most people still referred to them as HDTVs though since they were TVs (they had NTSC tuners) and they were HD monitors. They didn't have ATSC tuners in them, you had to feed them an HD signal over component (most didn't have DVI or HDMI).

I had an early Hitachi HD CRT monitor (61" 4:3 screen) and I still have two Hitachi CRT HDTVs (57" and 65" 16:9 screens).


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

RPTV ... may be, if we can see the model ID at least, but if n3vino will provide his model, we could dig into it. I'm sure it is different case.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> I thought they downscaled 720p to 540p and doubled it to 1080i or displayed it at 540p? I think that's what mine do, I believe there's even a setting to tell it if you want to use 540p or 1080i. I believe they also upscale 480i/480p to 540p and display it that way.
> 
> And yes there were some that just plain wouldn't accept a 720p signal (only a few of those). These were back in the days of HD monitors, not HDTVs. Most people still referred to them as HDTVs though since they were TVs (they had NTSC tuners) and they were HD monitors. They didn't have ATSC tuners in them, you had to feed them an HD signal over component (most didn't have DVI or HDMI).
> 
> I had an early Hitachi HD CRT monitor (61" 4:3 screen) and I still have two Hitachi CRT HDTVs (57" and 65" 16:9 screens).


Not sure what all of them do, but my Sony would take the 720p input [through DVI] and trash it fairly bad to the display.

A friend is using a JVC "HD ready" CRT that also has component & DVI.
It doesn't display what the resolution is [the manual is long gone] but handles both 1080i & 720p inputs on the 4:3 screen in letterbox.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

P Smith said:


> RPTV ... may be, if we can see the model ID at least, but if n3vino will provide his model, we could dig into it. I'm sure it is different case.


Not sure about his but mine were/are

Hitachi 61SDX01B
Hitachi 65F710
Hitachi 57F59


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

P Smith said:


> RPTV ... may be, if we can see the model ID at least, but if n3vino will provide his model, we could dig into it. I'm sure it is different case.


Sony KP-51WS500. It is a CRT, HD monitor, no tuner.

[ Page 39 of the manual.

Watching the Digital TV

When you have connected the DTV receiver, you can enjoy digital TV programs. This projection TV is capable of receiving the 1080I, 720P, 480P, and 480I digital TV formats.

This projection TV is not capable of displaying a native 720P format signal. When a 720P format signal is received, it is converted into a 480P format signal. ]

Therefore, I set the TW or in this case D* receivers to pass 480P and 1080I signals only. What that does is convert 480I to 480P which gives me a very good SD signal, and converts 720P to 1080I so that my set can display it in HD.


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

Beerstalker said:


> I thought they downscaled 720p to 540p and doubled it to 1080i or displayed it at 540p? I think that's what mine do, I believe there's even a setting to tell it if you want to use 540p or 1080i. I believe they also upscale 480i/480p to 540p and display it that way.
> 
> And yes there were some that just plain wouldn't accept a 720p signal (only a few of those). These were back in the days of HD monitors, not HDTVs. Most people still referred to them as HDTVs though since they were TVs (they had NTSC tuners) and they were HD monitors. They didn't have ATSC tuners in them, you had to feed them an HD signal over component (most didn't have DVI or HDMI).
> 
> I had an early Hitachi HD CRT monitor (61" 4:3 screen) and I still have two Hitachi CRT HDTVs (57" and 65" 16:9 screens).


 I do remember something about 540 on the Hitachi. My Sony does have a DVI input, but will also display 1080I via component.


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

veryoldschool said:


> "no", they can pass 1080p/24, but it must be broadcast that way.
> Even if you only select 1080p, the receiver will output 1080i if the signal/program isn't 1080p/24.


 But if you have a 1080P TV, won't the tv display it as 1080P anyway? Or do 1080P's also display 1080I?


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

P Smith said:


> You didn't mentioned the model of TV.
> CRT ? Only 480p and 1080i - sorry, I don't believe you;
> HD OTA signals from beginning was in 480p/720p/1080i (it's ATSC standard !) - is your TV has ATSC tuner ? If answer yes, then videoprocessor do support all three resolution.


My dad has a CRT that will not support 720P, and my brothers old rear projection wouldn't do it either.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

n3vino said:


> But if you have a 1080P TV, won't the tv display it as 1080P anyway? Or do 1080P's also display 1080I?


Yes a 1080p (or any other) FP TV will always convert any incoming signal to their native progressive display resolution through any necessary de-interlacing, up-conversion, and 3:2 pull-down addition.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

n3vino said:


> Sony KP-51WS500. It is a CRT, HD monitor, no tuner.
> 
> [ Page 39 of the manual.
> 
> ...


CRT ? Well, sorta ... It's pure RPTV:


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

HoTat2 said:


> Yes a 1080p (or any other) FP TV will always convert any incoming signal to their native progressive display resolution through any necessary de-interlacing, up-conversion, and 3:2 pull-down addition.


I'm assuming by FP you mean fixed pixel, but you might want to write it out that way. FP could be confused for front projection since we are talking about CRTs, Rear projection, etc.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

P Smith said:


> CRT ? Well, sorta ... It's pure RPTV:


It is a rear projection CRT, just like all of mine. Not sure why you have such a problem when people refer to these as CRTs. That is what they are. Just because they aren't a direct view CRT doesn't mean it's not a CRT.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Beerstalker said:


> I'm assuming by FP you mean fixed pixel, but you might want to write it out that way. FP could be confused for front projection since we are talking about CRTs, Rear projection, etc.


"Flat Panel"

As a quick description of LCD or Plasma displays.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"skatingrocker17" said:


> It's possible but there's no one in the US broadcasting in 1080p. My guess would be because not all HDTVs will accept a 1080p signal. Not that all of them accept both 1080i or 720p either but the vast majority do. I had an old CRT HDTV in 2003 that only accepted 1080i HD signal but not 720p.


The original standard for over the air atsc had 18 digital formats, several of which are of Hi Definition quality. I don't recall 1080p being one of them, and therefore many of the original atsc decodes can not accept them, as you point out. All atsc tuners can accept 720p and 1080i signals since they where included in the original atsc standards, if they meet those standards. What they might do to those signals to actually display them, well, that's a whole other discussion.

Does anyone know if 1080p was added as a over the air format? I don't recall that, and harsh only pointed us to a sat table of formats, it look like.

Also, I'd guess your CRT was hd ready, needing an outboard atsc tuner yes? 

As for the rest of you guys discussing what sets do with signals to convert them from one format to another, not only does it often change from manufacture to manufacturer but often times manufacturers would change from year to year what hey did. There is no one standard at all when it comes to those things.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

ATSC tuner is *not *video compression format-dependable device.
If some station will modulate by 8VSB 6 MHz wide signal with 1080p60 it will be delivered by the ATSC tuner (and demux) to TV (or external) video-processor (or software).

No need to to mix different thing onto one blob.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> The original standard for over the air atsc had 18 digital formats, several of which are of Hi Definition quality. I don't recall 1080p being one of them, and therefore many of the original atsc decodes can not accept them, as you point out. ...
> 
> ... Does anyone know if 1080p was added as a over the air format? I don't recall that, and harsh only pointed us to a sat table of formats, it look like.


Well ... from the WiKi anyhow under:

"ATSC Standard A/53 Part 4:2009 (MPEG-2 Video System Characteristics)"

The first of the 18 format entries is;

Resolution - 1920 x 1080
AR - 16:9
Pixel AR - square
Scanning - Progressive
Frame Rate - (23.976) 24 or (29.97) 30 fps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Television_Systems_Committee_standards


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

n3vino said:


> But if you have a 1080P TV, won't the tv display it as 1080P anyway? Or do 1080P's also display 1080I?


right. if you have a TV with a native resolution of 1080p, everything that the TV displays will be up-converted to the TV's1080p resolution.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

peds48 said:


> right. if you have a TV with a native resolution of *1080p*, everything that the TV displays will be up-converted to the TV's1080p resolution.


Native resolution is 1920x1080 according to the flat panel design (or other).
Then other parameter is a refresh rate - modern TV has it as 120 or 240 Hz. Whole screen is refreshing with the frequency. *I* or *P* is irrelevant here.

Other values and indicators (like the I/P) come from input MPEG signal and video-processor what is doing de-interlacing, pull-down, crop, zoom, etc ...


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

Well, at least DTV's CSR didn't claim they were broadcasting 4K (4K x 2K - 4096 x 2160 pixels), Which is due to replace 1080i/p (1920 x 1080 pixels) as the highest-resolution signal available for movies and, perhaps, television. 

HH


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

That's big relief, yeah .


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

HuskerHarley said:


> Well, at least DTV's CSR didn't claim they were broadcasting 4K (4K x 2K - 4096 x 2160 pixels), Which is due to replace 1080i/p (1920 x 1080 pixels) as the highest-resolution signal available for movies and, perhaps, television.
> 
> HH


Yeah, we have a lot of years before that is even close to taking over, I doubt any csrs even know about that.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

litzdog911 said:


> If a standard exists and nobody ever uses it, does it really matter?


Perhaps it doesn't matter, but it exists nonetheless making your statement false.

It is much too early to suggest that it will never be employed.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Beerstalker said:


> Just because they aren't a direct view CRT doesn't mean it's not a CRT.


By the same token, just because a TV uses rear projection technology doesn't mean it is a CRT. Many of the best RPTVs don't employ CRTs.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> Does anyone know if 1080p was added as a over the air format? I don't recall that, and harsh only pointed us to a sat table of formats, it look like.


See post #33.


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

Would this statement be true or false? If the OP has a 1080P TV, everything he watches on his tv will be at 1080P no matter how D* sends it, or how he sets his box to send it to the TV.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

n3vino said:


> Would this statement be true or false? If the OP has a 1080P TV, everything he watches on his tv will be at 1080P no matter how D* sends it, or how he sets his box to send it to the TV.


True;

But the point is if the picture was natively that way going into a 1080p TV, instead of the set merely up-converting it that way to its own native display resolution, the PQ will be anywhere from better to superior.


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

n3vino said:


> Would this statement be true or false? If the OP has a 1080P TV, everything he watches on his tv will be at 1080P no matter how D* sends it, or how he sets his box to send it to the TV.


Yes/True.

My set's are 1080P, but, unless they are fed a true 1080P signal, the picture is not as good as true 1080P, only slightly better.

HH


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HuskerHarley said:


> Yes/True.
> 
> *My set's are 1080P*, but, unless they are fed a true 1080P signal, the picture is not as good as true 1080P, only slightly better.
> 
> HH


Are we know what the model is ?
What kind of TRUE 1080p it could accept ? 1080p24 ? 1080p30 ? 1080p60 ? 
What source is provide the TRUE 1080p signal for your TV ?


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

HoTat2 said:


> True;
> 
> But the point is if the picture was natively that way going into a 1080p TV, instead of the set merely up-converting it that way to its own native display resolution, the PQ will be anywhere from better to superior.


The difference between interlaced and progressive is that 1080I displays the even lines first, and the odd lines second. Progressive displays them all at the same time. The same was true with DVD's. DVD's were formated at 480I, but progressive DVD players would convert them to progressive or 480P. In my case, as has already been pointed out, my Sony displays at 480I and 480P. I would set my DVD player to progressive, sending a 480P format. I could tell the difference between the two formats. It's all in the way my set was displaying it.

So in the OP's case, does it really make a difference if his set receives a 1080I as opposed to 1080P when the set will display at 1080P, and if so, what causes the difference? What could make the difference is the bitrate. Is there a difference in the bitrate between a broadcasters 1080I transmission and D*'s 1080P pay per view Cinemas? Would broadcasters have to increase their bitrate to transmit 1080P?

Case in point. When my upscaling DVD player or my blueray plays regular DVD's, the signal is sent to my set at 1080I. It's better then 480P, but not as good as true blueray. The difference is the bitrate of the blueray, which is about four times higher then on a DVD .My set displays it at 1080I/60. If my set would display at 1080P, it would be even better because the lines would all be displayed at the same time.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

n3vino said:


> The difference between interlaced and progressive is that 1080I displays the even lines first, and the odd lines second.


I think most/all of the new HD TVs now convert interlaced to progressive and interlace is a leftover from the CRT days.
I've compared 1080i & 1080p/24 DirecTV bitrates and they're about the same.
This might not be the case if it was still MPEG-2, which is the current broadcast [OTA] encoding.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

veryoldschool said:


> I think most/all of the new HD TVs now convert interlaced to progressive and interlace is a leftover from the CRT days.
> ...


From seen the pixels/rows on screen exactly !

The i-format has its merit - less bandwidth and still widely using because of that.


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

P Smith said:


> *(1)*Are we know what the model is ?
> 
> *(2)*What kind of TRUE 1080p it could accept ? 1080p24 ? 1080p30 ? 1080p60 ?
> 
> *(3)*What source is provide the TRUE 1080p signal for your TV ?


*(1)*My TVs are PIONEER ELITE PRO-151 & PRO-111, both are old in today's standards (2008) but are still considered reference quality (check C-Net) Why do you want to know what TV I have?

*(2)*For your curiosity, from PIONEER:
1080 Progressive Image Reproduction with ability to accept 480i/480p/720p/1080i/ and TRUE 1080p 24fps signals.

*(3)* Panny Blu-Ray Player!

Not sure why I even answered this post-->

HH


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Yes you did. And your perfect TV would get best 1080p24 content from BR, good from DTV and dish when it's provided (so far on PPV or OnDemand).


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

Crayon Explanation-->:listenup:

When I watch HBO or SHOTIME in HD, the picture is great, if I watch the same movie on a BLU-RAY disc the picture is Gorgeous.

Same goes for the sound, with my 7.2 system if a disc is only 5.1, my receiver will do it's magic and make it kind of sound like a 7.2, sounds pretty good, but, if it's a 7.1 BLU-RAY disc, then my sound is awesome-->:smoking:

HH


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> ....I've compared 1080i & 1080p/24 DirecTV bitrates and they're about the same...


Which makes perfect sense, since a 1080i broadcast signal is transmitted as 60 1920x540 *fields* per second. This is reassembled by the display into 30 1920x1080 *frames* per second. Therefore, all other things being equal, a 1080i broadcast feed and a 1080p PPV feed should be within 20% (6/30) of each other in terms of bit rate (with the PPV being slightly smaller).

The only real advantage of progressive over interlaced is the theoretical possibility of motion artifacts in interlaced transmission, stemming from the reduced frame rate. For example, if watching a baseball travelling from mound to batter the ball, in a 1080i/60 feed, is completely "painted" on the screen only 30 times per second (because it takes two interlaced fields to make a complete frame) during which time a 90 mile per hour fastball ball will have travelled about 4 feet. If broadcast in 720p/60, the ball only travels 2 feet per frame, which produces a more pleasing visual effect.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

harsh said:


> By the same token, just because a TV uses rear projection technology doesn't mean it is a CRT. Many of the best RPTVs don't employ CRTs.


I know that, not sure I would say many of the best though. I've never been big on LCD or DLP rear projectors. The LCOS/SXRD stuff was pretty nice though if you got a good one (Sony had a lot of bad ones).

I was aiming that comment at P Smith. There have been a few threads where he mistakenly assumed when somebody talked about a CRT TV they were talking about a direct view one. He also always assumes rear projection TVs are DLP or LCD. He pretty much ignores CRT rear projectors and their unique abilities/constraints, and has steered people in the wrong direction or just plain given them wrong information before.

I have no problem with P Smith, he is obviously a pretty knowledgeable guy and can be a big help if you can understand his posts. I just was trying to point out to him that he needs to stop ignoring CRT Rear Porjection TVs and maybe learn a bit about them.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Perhaps it's too late to include such RPTV(with 7 or 9" CRTs) into current discussion of 720p/1080i/1080p as these models are not capable to follow current standards like 1080p24 seen in mass production of BR players.
Nothing to learn ...


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

When there's thousands of them (if not millions) out there still in use, and they work quite well, why should we just ignore them.

The majority of content most of us watch is 1080i or lower, which they can display perfectly fine. Not to mention they can work just fine with a Blu-Ray player. I'd put a properly calibrated RP CRT up against most new TVs out there and wouldn't be suprised if the CRT had a better picture.

There aren't very many modern TVs I would rather have than my 65" Hitachi. Maybe a 65" GT or VT Panasonic Plasma. For the price I paid ($650) it definitely couldn't be beat. And you really can't blame me for not wanting to just throw it out to spend $3000 to replace it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> I'd put a properly calibrated CRT up against most new TVs out there and wouldn't be suprised if the CRT had a better picture.


I've been a big fan of CRTs since long before some here were born, but when they started getting over 200 lbs, I had to move on. :lol:


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## HuskerHarley (Feb 8, 2012)

veryoldschool said:


> I've been a big fan of CRTs since long before some here were born, but when they started getting over 200 lbs, I had to move on. :lol:


Those were the day's..My last CRT was a Sony XBR 40", it was a monster, especially, when needing moved, two strong men crying, while caring it up or down a flight of stairs-->:eek2:

HH


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> I've been a big fan of CRTs since long before some here were born, but when they started getting over 200 lbs, I had to move on. :lol:


Ha Ha, you just got to have bigger friends:lol:

I've moved mine 3 times now. Two of them being in and out of a 3rd floor apartment (no elevator).

I also used to work in the warehouse and doing deliveries for Circuit City when I was in college. So I've moved my fair share of them over the years. The 36" and 40" Sonys were absolute monsters. My current 65" Hitachi is pretty heavy, but it can come apart into 2 pieces so it makes it much easier to move.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Beerstalker said:


> When there's thousands of them (if not millions) out there still in use, and they work quite well, why should we just ignore them.
> 
> The majority of content most of us watch is 1080i or lower, which they can display perfectly fine. Not to mention they can work just fine with a Blu-Ray player. I'd put a properly calibrated RP CRT up against most new TVs out there and wouldn't be suprised if the CRT had a better picture.
> 
> There aren't very many modern TVs I would rather have than my 65" Hitachi. Maybe a 65" GT or VT Panasonic Plasma. For the price I paid ($650) it definitely couldn't be beat. And you really can't blame me for not wanting to just throw it out to spend $3000 to replace it.


While they could be good then new(?) after cleaning the CRTs from dust and replacing the CRTs itself, they're still not good for best picture from BR in 1080p24 ! They just can't handle the outstanding format.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

HuskerHarley said:


> Those were the day's..My last CRT was a Sony XBR 40", it was a monster, especially, when needing moved, two strong men crying, while caring it up or down a flight of stairs-->:eek2:
> 
> HH


I still use my Sony KV40XBR800. Awesome HD video quality. But 400 lbs! I dread the day it dies and needs to be moved!


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"litzdog911" said:


> I still use my Sony KV40XBR800. Awesome HD video quality. But 400 lbs! I dread the day it dies and needs to be moved!


That's when you see what happens when a sledge hammer hits glass....

I once saw someone drop a kwd34xbr, which was basically the same thing but 100 lbs lighter in wide screen format, the cracked display was a sad sight...


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## n3vino (Oct 2, 2011)

P Smith said:


> While they could be good then new(?) after cleaning the CRTs from dust and replacing the CRTs itself, they're still not good for best picture from BR in 1080p24 ! They just can't handle the outstanding format.


I'm sure that's true. But my 10 year old Sony CRT is still alive and doing well and it does put out a very good HD picture. However, I have begun to do the research on the new models so that when the Sony dies, I'll know what to look for.

What I have noticed is that the new models are usually set to torch mode and the colors are not set properly, so the image is not as nice. The CRTs can be calibrated using a calibration DVD to set the right amount of sharpnes, contrast, brightness, and color. Some also knew how to get into the service menu and turn off red push, set gray scale, and do some other tweaks as well as correct geometry, convergence and tweaks on the guns to get the best colors and picture. That's why a lot of CRT owners hated to see the CRT's go.

I don't know if it's the same with the new sets.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Yes, if you know how it should be done, have an experience and good calibration tool ..LED,plasma, LCD .. perhaps OLED soon


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

inkahauts said:


> That's when you see what happens when a sledge hammer hits glass....
> 
> I once saw someone drop a kwd34xbr, which was basically the same thing but 100 lbs lighter in wide screen format, the cracked display was a sad sight...


That's harder than you think, and be prepared for a huge mess when you do finally get it to break. We broke a few of the big old CRTs (that had quit working and needed destroyed) back in the warehouse with a 15lb sledge. The glass is really thick and really takes a beating. We never did a 40" Sony tube, but I can imagine the glass on the front is probably about 3-4" thick in places. When you do finally get them to break they pretty much explode and send glass flying in all directions. One of the guys back there watching got a few cuts from the flying glass. We were still finding glass weeks later in different corners of the room. It was pretty cool though:lol:


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Knowledgeable ppl do not do that [stupid] way - it's need to be done by using pliers and squeeze a glass 'tail' of the tube, inside, after removing contact's socket from the tube. Adding to that safety measure - cover by heavy blanket a front side of the TV tube.


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