# Bug Report L186: Loses SD Video Sync, SD Video overdriven



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

I just hooked up my 921 this past Saturday, and all went very, very good. Over the past 3 days, I've done a bunch of recordings and pausing live TV and so on, and it has worked perfectly every time. How did I ever live without this thing? I feel like I've gone from Flintstones to Jetsons overnight! However, I am having two issues that are really annoying and I wonder if they are software bugs or a hardware problem:

ISSUE #1: 
If I switch to HD mode, and then, at any point, go back to SD mode, I lose video sync. The picture looks like a VCR with the tracking all screwed up, or when you have a neighbor using a 200 watt Ham Radio; herringbones, "snow" and vertical rolling. This happens every time I change channels (up/down or through the guide) and the only way to get the picture back is to go back to the guide and reselect the channel (or scroll through the screen modes with the "*" button). It also happens when I use any DVR feature (which makes the DVR useless). The next day, presumably after the auto reboot, it's back to normal… until the next time I use HD mode and then go back to SD. Obviously, this really sucks. For SD, the 921 is connected to a Pioneer Elite 610 monitor via a Monster S-Video cable. I never once had this happen with the Dish 6000 that the 921 has replaced.

ISSUE #2:
The picture, in both SD and HD, on my 921 is "overdriven." Bright white backgrounds or objects totally wash out and bleed over darker areas (I think the effect is called Blooming); every channel looks a lot like the daylight scenes in "Pitch Black." Really aggravating. Likewise, dark scenes are horribly dark. It is not the TV, or the cabling, since I can move both the S-Video and COMPONENT cables from the 921 back to my 6000 and the picture looks perfect in both SD and HD modes. The TV has been balanced with the Avia DVD and looks great for DVDs and LaserDiscs (and the 6000). It's just the 921 that looks "otherworldly."


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

HailScroob said:


> I just hooked up my 921 this past Saturday, and all went very, very good. Over the past 3 days, I've done a bunch of recordings and pausing live TV and so on, and it has worked perfectly every time. How did I ever live without this thing? I feel like I've gone from Flintstones to Jetsons overnight! However, I am having two issues that are really annoying and I wonder if they are software bugs or a hardware problem:
> 
> ISSUE #1:
> If I switch to HD mode, and then, at any point, go back to SD mode, I lose video sync. The picture looks like a VCR with the tracking all screwed up, or when you have a neighbor using a 200 watt Ham Radio; herringbones, "snow" and vertical rolling. This happens every time I change channels (up/down or through the guide) and the only way to get the picture back is to go back to the guide and reselect the channel (or scroll through the screen modes with the "*" button). It also happens when I use any DVR feature (which makes the DVR useless). The next day, presumably after the auto reboot, it's back to normal&#8230; until the next time I use HD mode and then go back to SD. Obviously, this really sucks. For SD, the 921 is connected to a Pioneer Elite 610 monitor via a Monster S-Video cable. I never once had this happen with the Dish 6000 that the 921 has replaced.
> ...


It sounds like you need a replacement. If you 6000 works ok on you monitor with the same connectors, then it is the 921 having issues.


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

boylehome said:


> It sounds like you need a replacement. If you 6000 works ok on you monitor with the same connectors, then it is the 921 having issues.


So you don't see either of these things with your 921?


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I don't see either of those issues on my 921, HailScroob. Your Issue #1 screams hardware problem to me that will require replacement. There have been some people in the past talking about the video being too dark in the past, but I don't see that one either on my calibrated setup.


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

Well, it took some arguing with an "Advanced Tech" but they're swapping out my 921. Initially, she tried to say that she'd report the issue to the engineers and they would fix both problems with a software update. I said riiiiiiiiiight... how can software fix a problem that only I seem to have? She finally saw my point. 

I can't wait to see how this next box performs. I can only assume that it will be a "reconditioned" lemon that they swapped out for someone else, right? Old one = perfect DVR (at least so far), wanky picture. New one = ?????


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

HailScroob said:


> So you don't see either of these things with your 921?


No, I don't use SD too much. When I do use it, no problems at all.


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

HailScroob said:


> Well, it took some arguing with an "Advanced Tech" but they're swapping out my 921. Initially, she tried to say that she'd report the issue to the engineers and they would fix both problems with a software update. I said riiiiiiiiiight... how can software fix a problem that only I seem to have? She finally saw my point.
> 
> I can't wait to see how this next box performs. I can only assume that it will be a "reconditioned" lemon that they swapped out for someone else, right? Old one = perfect DVR (at least so far), wanky picture. New one = ?????


This might be hard to swallow but it seems to work. I have not had very good luck with the tech. staff at E* by telephone. I have had good luck with E* staff when I use their Support located on their web site. I guess when it comes to having to commit to something they seem to do a better job when they have to put it in writing.


----------



## Bob Trapp (Feb 18, 2003)

I've had my 921 for only a short time so not much experience with it. I have seen issue #1 one time. I was watching HD and switched over to SD for another TV set. Issue #1 showed up. Switching back to HD and the again to SD solved the problem.

This problem showed up one time in maybe twenty occasions.


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

Just to update this thread. I received a replacement 921 (L186, Flash 053, Boot F150) on Friday. It didn't correct either issue. In fact, ISSUE #2, the Video Overdrive, was much, much worse. In the end, I put my old 921 back (L186, Flash 052, Boot F140) and shipped the replacement box right back to Dish.

As for ISSUE #1, I did a little experimenting and discovered that, when you switch to HD, and then switch back to SD, the Component Video jacks on the 921 are still outputting a signal (even though *only the yellow SD output light is on*). It's the fact that a mismatched signal is coming from both the Component and the S-Video inputs that was giving my monitor fits. No amount of switching between HD and SD corrects the problem - in SD the HD outputs continue to both emit a signal.

After an overnight reboot, when the 921 is left is SD mode, this "phantom" signal on the Component Video jacks is gone and all is well, at least until you switch to HD and then try to go back to SD.

My workaround is to connect the HD cable to Input 2 on the monitor&#8230; which makes me sad because, with the 6000 receiver, I was able to let the TV automatically switch Input 1 between S-Video or Composite input (and I had one less button to push).


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Kind of sounds like there may be something between the 921 and the monitor. Perhaps the monitor is subject to concerns.


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

That's funny; the 921 is emitting a "phantom" signal through the HD COMPONENT output when it is in SD mode (a time when only the S-Video and RCA jacks should be active)... and the problem is my monitor?


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Both the 921 and monitor have yellow ports for comopsit video. perhaps the bridging is within the 921 but depending on the monitor and it's input configurations, it may be an assembly issue. Can you try a DVI cable to see if it end the problem?


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

Oh for the love of... 

Component! I've been meaning to say COMPONENT video all though this! Why the heck did I say composite? What a dork. Feel free to ban me from ever posting here again...

The issue is that the 921 sends a signal though the COMPONENT and S-Video outputs at the same time, even though it's only in SD mode (only the amber light is on).

I've corrected the error in the previous postings (I did manage to get it right in post #9).


----------



## sjm992 (Jan 14, 2004)

My problem is similar to #1 except that as soon as I switch the 921 back to HD the rolling screen with vertical grey bar goes away. I have a similar TV to Hailscroob (Pioneer Elite HD510) and I suspect that the TV has trouble autosensing the signal because of the component signal leakage that was mentioned earlier. Sometimes, after a few seconds, the TV does manage to lock on to the signal. I have discussed this same issue with a couple of other Elite owners. 

My workaround so far has been to leave the 921 in HD mode (to the detriment of SD picture quality). The Elite 510 does not have a DVI input. I'd swap the 921 for another one but I have no confidence that the problem would be fixed. I suspect that most people don't know there's a problem because they use different TV inputs for the HD/SD.

Regarding issue #2. Hailscroob, your Avia calibration is only good for your DVD input. You should expect to have to adjust the monitor settings on the 921 input, especially if your monitor has not been professionally calibrated. I had to turn the brightness down and the black level up.
Stuart


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

sjm992 said:


> Regarding issue #2. Hailscroob, your Avia calibration is only good for your DVD input. You should expect to have to adjust the monitor settings on the 921 input, especially if your monitor has not been professionally calibrated. I had to turn the brightness down and the black level up.


Ordinarily that would be true, except that all of my S-Video sources run through a high-end A/V switch (as noted above) and enter the 610 thorugh the same S-Video port (Input 1). In other words, my DVD input is the same as my 921 input.

I like your idea that most people aren't having this problem becuase they have SD and HD on different inputs on their TVs. I ran everything though Input 1 because, as you noted, on our Elite TVs you have to adjust each input individually, and I'm basically a lazy guy - I liked that I could just deal with Input 1. The Dish 6000 receiver behaved correctly, and the TV could easily toggle automatically between HD and SD depending on whenther the incoming signal was on Component or S-Video. I already miss that.


----------



## sjm992 (Jan 14, 2004)

HailScroob said:


> Ordinarily that would be true, except that all of my S-Video sources run through a high-end A/V switch (as noted above) and enter the 610 thorugh the same S-Video port (Input 1). In other words, my DVD input is the same as my 921 input.


I still think I'm correct because the 921 seems to output a stronger (or whatever the correct term is) signal than your 6000 and DVD. The 921 isn't adjustable so the TV has to be adjusted to compensate. You can't do that if you use an AV switch.

I'm going to write a macro for my Pronto to automate this as much as possible then I'll move the S-video to my spare TV input. There will be an HD and an SD button on the pronto to switch everything. While not as user (wife, son) friendly as the current layout it will mean that I can use the Elite's wonderful 'natural wide' mode in SD.
Stuart


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

It has been reported in many places, for many E* receivers, that the "off" output(s) do not really turn "off". I've seen this in posts regarding external auto-switchers, too.


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

I guess my whole point with this is that they need to adjust the 921's output levels to something more "normal." My Denon DVD player, Pioneer LaserDisc player, JVC S-VHS deck and the Dish 6000 receiver are all from different vendors and yet they all output an S-Video signal at pretty darn close to the same level. Setting the picture from the Avia disk resulted in exceptional images from all 4 sources. It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that the 921 should do the same. I shouldn't have to dork around with my TV settings for just this one box; especially not a $1000 box.

Now, having said that, I have tried an endless combination of brightness and black level adjustments, and still could not get a picture anywhere near the quality of the 6000. There is just no way to dim the bright scenes so they don’t bloom while at the same time boosting the dark scenes so details are visible.

Oh yeah... Natural Wide ROCKS!


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

HailScroob said:


> I guess my whole point with this is that they need to adjust the 921's output levels to something more "normal." My Denon DVD player, Pioneer LaserDisc player, JVC S-VHS deck and the Dish 6000 receiver are all from different vendors and yet they all output an S-Video signal at pretty darn close to the same level. Setting the picture from the Avia disk resulted in exceptional images from all 4 sources. It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that the 921 should do the same. I shouldn't have to dork around with my TV settings for just this one box; especially not a $1000 box.
> 
> Now, having said that, I have tried an endless combination of brightness and black level adjustments, and still could not get a picture anywhere near the quality of the 6000. There is just no way to dim the bright scenes so they don't bloom while at the same time boosting the dark scenes so details are visible.
> HailScroob, I like you are at a loss. I can't get my 921 and monitor to do what you describe. Wish I could help but I think that this one is way to deep for me. Sorry and good luck
> Oh yeah... Natural Wide ROCKS!


----------



## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

HailScroob said:


> I guess my whole point with this is that they need to adjust the 921's output levels to something more "normal." My Denon DVD player, Pioneer LaserDisc player, JVC S-VHS deck and the Dish 6000 receiver are all from different vendors and yet they all output an S-Video signal at pretty darn close to the same level. Setting the picture from the Avia disk resulted in exceptional images from all 4 sources. It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that the 921 should do the same. I shouldn't have to dork around with my TV settings for just this one box; especially not a $1000 box.
> 
> Now, having said that, I have tried an endless combination of brightness and black level adjustments, and still could not get a picture anywhere near the quality of the 6000. There is just no way to dim the bright scenes so they don't bloom while at the same time boosting the dark scenes so details are visible.
> 
> Oh yeah... Natural Wide ROCKS!


HailScroob, I'm at a loss like you. I tried to recreate what you described with my monitor and 921. Nothing abnormal. Hope you get your problem resolved.


----------



## Lawood (Jul 29, 2003)

HailScroob said:


> I just hooked up my 921 this past Saturday, and all went very, very good. Over the past 3 days, I've done a bunch of recordings and pausing live TV and so on, and it has worked perfectly every time. How did I ever live without this thing? I feel like I've gone from Flintstones to Jetsons overnight! However, I am having two issues that are really annoying and I wonder if they are software bugs or a hardware problem:
> 
> ISSUE #1:
> If I switch to HD mode, and then, at any point, go back to SD mode, I lose video sync. The picture looks like a VCR with the tracking all screwed up, or when you have a neighbor using a 200 watt Ham Radio; herringbones, "snow" and vertical rolling. This happens every time I change channels (up/down or through the guide) and the only way to get the picture back is to go back to the guide and reselect the channel (or scroll through the screen modes with the "*" button). It also happens when I use any DVR feature (which makes the DVR useless). The next day, presumably after the auto reboot, it's back to normal&#8230; until the next time I use HD mode and then go back to SD. Obviously, this really sucks. For SD, the 921 is connected to a Pioneer Elite 610 monitor via a Monster S-Video cable. I never once had this happen with the Dish 6000 that the 921 has replaced.
> ...


Just today I hooked up a 921 to a Pioneer 510. My 921 also replaced a 6000. As for issue #1 only once when changing from HD to SD I lost video sync. So far haven't seen what you are experiencing with ISSUE #2, but will keep my eyes open.
I like to watch SD using the S-VIDEO ( to me the picture looks better then up converting through HD). For the HD hookup I am using an RGB cable connected to the 921 through a RGB/DVI adapter plug.
The ISSUE I have is that I like to watch SD with the TV set to the FULL mode screen, however anytime I select INPUT 2 (SD) on the TV(the 921 is connected to TV INPUT 2 via S-VIDEO) it ends up in ZOOM mode. As a result I must cycle through all the modes to get FULL back. This problem does not exist on the 6000 either. I haven't really yet rung out the 921 so still may encounter abnormal situations. I must I never had many complaints with the 6000 except occasionally I would get SMART CARD IS NOT VALID FOR THIS RECEIVER. 9 times out of 10 I could recover by just switching to HD then back to SD.
Leonard


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Welcome aboard, Leonard! Nice to see you here outside of the Denver thread at AVS.


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

Leonard - 

You are so right about watching SD through the S-Video input; in our sets the line doubler, and most other image enhancers, are only active when fed an SD signal, so if the 921 upconverts SD to HD scan rates, all the "good stuff" is bypassed and the picture suffers. I only watch DVDs in FULL mode - I'm partial to NATURAL WIDE for OTA - so I haven't encountered the issue you reported.

You know, except for the overdriven video, my 921 has been very well behaved (I can work around the Always On HD outputs - now that I know what's happening). Every timer has fired, and actually recorded the show; even a daily timer for The Daily Show hasn’t missed a beat. I never would have imagined how nice it is to be able to pause TV. And the thing is so user friendly - even the "technology averse" Significant Other has been able to record and playback. 

I haven't tried any OTA stuff yet, but I think I'll give it a shot once L187 is loaded. As long as it can find my NBC station, who has been bragging for weeks about their "complete HD coverage of the Olympics" on their secondary HD channel, I'll be a happy guy (except of course, for the watery eyes caused by the blinding, bleeding, flaring whites in the 921's picture).


----------



## sjm992 (Jan 14, 2004)

sjm992 said:


> I'm going to write a macro for my Pronto to automate this as much as possible then I'll move the S-video to my spare TV input. There will be an HD and an SD button on the pronto to switch everything. While not as user (wife, son) friendly as the current layout it will mean that I can use the Elite's wonderful 'natural wide' mode in SD.
> Stuart


Update:- Well my grand plan to have Pronto set everything up failed because we don't yet have discreet HD and SD codes - we do but they just don't work all of the time.

I did see the 921 output junk on the component lines for a few seconds after switching to SD (as noted by HailScroob in an earlier post). This is the cause of the Pioneer Elite not being able to auto switch when changing the 921 from HD to SD. The Pioneer only switches to the s-video input when the junk stops.

Hey HailScroob, we're now both 'cool members' as a result of this problem!
Stuart


----------

