# Archiving video off a 501 PVR



## Guest (Aug 9, 2004)

Has anyone had any luck with pulling recorded shows off the 501 PVR to a computer or onto a DVD recorder of some type. There is so much stuff I want to to put on DVD or computer and watch over and over again...


----------



## The Lidless Eye (Aug 11, 2003)

Simmer said:


> Has anyone had any luck with pulling recorded shows off the 501 PVR to a computer or onto a DVD recorder of some type. There is so much stuff I want to to put on DVD or computer and watch over and over again...


Yes, had great luck with a Pioneer 510H. Has a harddrive so I can just dump the whole program to it and edit out commercials, etc. The only tricky thing is guestimating how much you're going to cut out so you can use the least compression to fit it on a single disc. (You don't want to use the "fit to disc" mode, cause it's slow and has an extra conversion step, lowering quality)


----------



## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

You can check it out here.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dishrip/


----------



## MikeSoltis (Aug 1, 2003)

Cyclone beat me to it...
I have used the dishrip software, only thing to put the stuff on DVD, you need to convert it over to DVD resolution.


----------



## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

I wish someone would figure out a way to do it with the 721/921 "DishLinux" DVR's.


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I think it's the same problem as with the 522, and I think that the problem is that the Nagravision decryption is now being done while the stream is being read from the HDD, instead of when it's written to the HDD.


----------



## Aaron (May 19, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> I think it's the same problem as with the 522, and I think that the problem is that the Nagravision decryption is now being done while the stream is being read from the HDD, instead of when it's written to the HDD.


Nope, the program is entirely decrypted using the dish encryption then re-encrypted with a different method and a key specific to your box. You could copy off programs and restore them to you own box but they won't work on someone else's box.


----------



## Guest (Aug 10, 2004)

So there is no way to use the printer like port on the back or any other way to extract it without opening the box and removing the drive then?


----------



## Aaron (May 19, 2004)

Simmer said:


> So there is no way to use the printer like port on the back or any other way to extract it without opening the box and removing the drive then?


Nope, no way of extracting the programs without "hacking" the box.


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Aaron: I won't ask how you know this. 

However, do you have any ideas about how the offload/reload might be accomplished? There's several things that would have to be done.


----------



## dfergie (Feb 28, 2003)

all I ever tried was my panasonic e-30 dvd recorder, and my replay... a twice dvred program is a little lossy


----------



## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Aaron said:


> Nope, no way of extracting the programs without "hacking" the box.


Do you mean "bad" hacking or "good" hacking? Everyone knows that the SATivo and DirecTivo boxes can be "hacked". But, they are "good" hacks that Tivo and DirecTV don't really care about, such as adding hdd's, networking, copying recordings, etc.

Stealing service, of course, is "bad" hacking. I want nothing to do with that.

Is there a way to "good" hack the 721/921, without stealing anything, or doing anything else that could be considered be illegal? After all, making digital copies for archival purposes is perfectly legal.


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

garypen said:


> ...After all, making digital copies for archival purposes is perfectly legal.


While that may be true (until the MPAA gets done with us), under the DMCA, it IS illegal to do anything at all to try to figure out how they store the digital copy on the hard drive


----------



## Aaron (May 19, 2004)

garypen said:


> Do you mean "bad" hacking or "good" hacking? Everyone knows that the SATivo and DirecTivo boxes can be "hacked". But, they are "good" hacks that Tivo and DirecTV don't really care about, such as adding hdd's, networking, copying recordings, etc.
> 
> Stealing service, of course, is "bad" hacking. I want nothing to do with that.
> 
> Is there a way to "good" hack the 721/921, without stealing anything, or doing anything else that could be considered be illegal? After all, making digital copies for archival purposes is perfectly legal.


Dish doesn't share your opinion of what is "good" and "bad" hacking. They'd consider the ability to make bit-perfect copies of HD programs not in their interest and "bad" hacking. Because if people can make unrestricted copies of HD programming studios aren't going to release their material in HD. Personally, I'd rather have good uncopyable HD content then crappy copyable content, so my interests seemed to be aligned with Dish's.

There is no publicly-disclosed method to hack the 721/921 to export recordings that I have seen.


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

There must be a way to retrieve the shows with a usb port since Dish is planning on having a portable DVR that will transfer shows from your home DVR to the portable DVR.


----------



## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Aaron said:


> Dish doesn't share your opinion of what is "good" and "bad" hacking.


No sh*t. They make it imposiible to make any modafications to their DVR's, like a simple hdd swap for more space.

BTW, I don't really care what their opinion is, only what is legal. If I own the box, I should be able to copy what is on that drive to another medium for archival use. That is "fair use". I am not even referring to HD. I would like to archive SD programming without analog loss.

Of course, if Dish made a DVR that didn't periodically wipe the hdd, it wouldn't be as necessary to do that.


----------



## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

garypen said:


> Of course, if Dish made a DVR that didn't periodically wipe the hdd, it wouldn't be as necessary to do that.


Agreed. My 508 had to be returned for various reasons and I was forced to copy the shows I hadn't seen to VCR because there's no way to move the data....it's a real downside.

If there's anything that I really want to save than I need to back it up because I don't have confidence that it will be there in say 2 years if I want to view it again. Yes, I know that if I want to view it in 2 years I should back it up to another medium, but I didn't have to do that with my VCR tapes.


----------



## stonecold (Feb 20, 2004)

Gary. The 522 721 921 all share a common problem. They all use the Encrypted XFS file system. there is a way to get around it but unfortunatly it envoles using tools of the pirate trade.


----------



## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

That sucks. I take it that the same tools used to decrypt the data from the hard drive for archiving could be used to steal service? That would be bad then.


----------



## Aaron (May 19, 2004)

Jacob S said:


> There must be a way to retrieve the shows with a usb port since Dish is planning on having a portable DVR that will transfer shows from your home DVR to the portable DVR.


It would take a very long time, it's only a USB 1 port. Like 10 minutes or so.


----------



## Aaron (May 19, 2004)

stonecold said:


> Gary. The 522 721 921 all share a common problem. They all use the Encrypted XFS file system. there is a way to get around it but unfortunatly it envoles using tools of the pirate trade.


You are mistaken, the file system is not encrypted.


----------



## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Hmmm. So there is hope?


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Depends. The file SYSTEM is not encrypted, but the video files ARE.


----------



## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Jeez. The promise of direct data copying from a 721 hard drive is like unkowingly picking up a tranvestite at a bar. It looks promising at first, but is ultimately very disappointing.


----------



## MarkoC (Apr 5, 2004)

garypen said:


> Of course, if Dish made a DVR that didn't periodically wipe the hdd, it wouldn't be as necessary to do that.


Whoaa! I have never heard about this before. Are you saying that the the DVR will automatically erase everything recorded on it at some point? Call me a newbie, but I had no idea that was the case. How often will that occur? If that is true it's crazy - I should be able to store whatever I have recorded for as long as I want.


----------



## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I have NEVER (knock wood) lost a single program on my 510. YMMV


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I have never heard of the shows erasing on their own. I have had shows on there that were several months old and not lost them.


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Losing shows happens when the box detects a hard drive error (real or imagined). I've had it happen once on my 501. It's poor software design - there's simply NO reason to erase everything for a simple single sector read/write error - and if it were any worse of an error than that, the box would totally fail rather quickly.


----------



## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Being fairly versed in Linux and having been a computer tech for 15 years, I am still agonizing over cracking my 721 open and popping the HDD in my computer. I use Linux pretty much exclusively, so I don't have all the problems with certain stuff that windows users have. What I would really like to find is someone who has an old 721 or a dead one that I could aquire to do some testing. While I have no problems working on my 501, my 721 is my main unit, and I'd hate to have her irritated with me for screwing it up. So, does anyone know where I can get a bad 721, or one that is not being used, cheap?


----------



## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Simon is correct about DMCA- While we can do what we want under fair use as long as we don't distribute the program file, unfortunately, the new law, DMCA, puts us at a disadvantage as to how to accomplish that. Tampering with the digital files can be a DMCA violation even if not violating a copyright law. I still want to believe that the DMCA won't stick in a specific case in court where no copyright law is violated but that is just my legal wish list. There is one final fact that no one can argue with and that is what the position of E* is regarding any tampering with the hard drive or it's content in their PVR's. They told me specifically, that they consider tampering with that part of the DVR is the same as tampering with their smart cards. Of course TIVO has a different attitude about this. Until E* offers a hard drive upgrade or E* sanctions a 3rd party upgrade "kit" I'm afraid any attempt at HD addition, expansion or file extraction and decryption will be treated like smart card tampering, regardless of any fair use or copyright legalities. Put simply, one cannot pick and choose the laws he wishes to be exempt from. Of course, maybe you want to be the one who IS the test case.


----------



## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

There is no "law" against modifying or attempting to modify the hdd in a Dish DVR, as far as I can tell. Dish may _consider _ it the same as tampering with the smart card. But, the fact is it is not the same thing. Nothing is being stolen. If the sub owns the box, the worst thing that Dish can _legally _ do is void the warranty.


----------



## Aaron (May 19, 2004)

larrystotler said:


> Being fairly versed in Linux and having been a computer tech for 15 years, I am still agonizing over cracking my 721 open and popping the HDD in my computer. I use Linux pretty much exclusively, so I don't have all the problems with certain stuff that windows users have. What I would really like to find is someone who has an old 721 or a dead one that I could aquire to do some testing. While I have no problems working on my 501, my 721 is my main unit, and I'd hate to have her irritated with me for screwing it up. So, does anyone know where I can get a bad 721, or one that is not being used, cheap?


I wouldn't bother, there isn't anything you can do with the system even though you can read and write all the files. The system checksums all of the critical files when it boots and has a secure loader that won't run programs that aren't authenticated. The video files are encrypted, without your key you can't decrypt them. The key is not stored on the hard disk.


----------



## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Yeah, but the problem with all security schemes is that eventually, they will be cracked. Having a law that restrictcs my fair use of a product that I legally own is unconstitutional,, and eventually, the DMCA will be struck down for thos reasons. They know this will happen, and it was a stopgap measure to try to give them time to create a better system. When you have 2 conflicting laws, a lot of time you just have to go with what appears to be the more constitutional one. Laws are made by people, and they are far from perfect. If I want to tear open a piece of equipment that I bought and don't attempt to "steal" programming in the process, then I am not breaking the law. I have a fair use right to do certain things.


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Larry: That's a logical position (which I agree with), but the current laws say no.

Do YOU want to be the test case?


----------



## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

OK, but is replacing a hard drive on a peice of equipment against the law? Or adding in a bigger one? Or making an exact backup of it for archival purposes? I guess if it came down to it I would fight it. It's already being fought out in the courts right now anyway, so we will have to see what happens.


----------



## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

It depends on whether you "touch" the software in a manner that the vendor doesn't like.

And under the DMCA, THAT'S the determining factor - whoever owns the copyright makes the rules.


----------

