# Question about the external hard drive



## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

Hi everyone,

I haven’t posted in a while but it’s good to see that an external hard drive could be attached to the E* HD DVR box. Now, I have searched all over and I have found that the external HD is used to “archive” recordings and it won’t be seen as an "automatic" extension of your storage capacity or in other words, just more hours of recording. I’m asking this because my brother who has cable, bought a HD TiVo, obtained the cable card for free from Comcast and when he added the external hard drive all he saw was his recording hours being increased due to this new capacity. No need to archive. The box takes care of managing everything. I’m not saying that having this option with the E* box is a bad one, I’m just wondering if there is a reason why this was done this way.

Thanks in advance for your responses,


jvelez67


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Welcome back!
The external USB drive is an archive, not extended storage.

You will still have the same amount of storage on your 622/722 but you will be able to move recordings off to a USB drive to clear space (instead of deleting programs). You can have multiple USB drives, connected one at a time, and do not need to move content back in order to view it.


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

Thank you for your fast response, James.

I think they didn’t “marry” both hard drives because then an ethernet/computer connection would have been needed to decide what you really want to archive and what you want to keep inside the box/external hard drive combo, right? I think that how the TiVo works. 

Thanks again for your answer.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

They could have an interface that would decide where to put a recording ... but it seems better to record internally and save off the "long term" recordings instead of trusting the USB 2.0 connection (especially for HD programs).

I usually leave my USB drive off and only turn it on when I want to archive or view something. The receiver handles that well.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

There's also the situation, at least with the 622/722 that you could be trying to record as many as 3 simultaneous programs and watching 2 pre-recorded at the same time.

IF they allowed direct recording to the external drive, I'm not sure the external drive could handle that many simultaneous streams at once... so it could be a programming nightmare to determine how to limit things in those cases if your internal drive was too full.

Probably just smoother all around to only permit archiving OR playback (note that you can't archive and playback from the external drive at the same time)... and force the internal drive to be used the rest of the time.


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

HDMe said:


> There's also the situation, at least with the 622/722 that you could be trying to record as many as 3 simultaneous programs and watching 2 pre-recorded at the same time.
> 
> IF they allowed direct recording to the external drive, I'm not sure the external drive could handle that many simultaneous streams at once... so it could be a programming nightmare to determine how to limit things in those cases if your internal drive was too full.
> 
> Probably just smoother all around to only permit archiving OR playback (note that you can't archive and playback from the external drive at the same time)... and force the internal drive to be used the rest of the time.


Hum&#8230;really interesting comment. I didn't think about that. These boxes have multiple tuners and maybe adding an external HD to be seen as an "extended" storage could be a problem due to all these ins and outs of information. I'll ask my brother how many tuners his TiVo has. I could be that it's a single tuner kind of box. Thanks again for your input!


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I beleive in the future you will see larger and larger hard drives replacing our old dvd racks. Sooner or later I think we will purchase all media and save it on a hard drive. TV and Internet will be totally intergrated and hard copies of media will be almost obsolete when price and storage space are considered.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

jclewter79 said:


> I beleive in the future you will see larger and larger hard drives replacing our old dvd racks. Sooner or later I think we will purchase all media and save it on a hard drive. TV and Internet will be totally intergrated and hard copies of media will be almost obsolete when price and storage space are considered.


And when the drive crashes, everything will be lost. :eek2:


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Looking at the TiVo site, per their FAQ, they use eSATA and not USB for connecting extrental HDs.

You have to use a TiVo branded EHD.

Only one EHD is supported at a time per TiVo unit.

You can not move the TiVo EHD from one TiVo unit to another without losing your programming.

Programs are recorded partly on the internal HD and partly on the external HD.

You can record 2 programs while watching a 3rd recorded program.

*I'll take the E* external HD system, thank you very much *


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

TulsaOK said:


> And when the drive crashes, everything will be lost. :eek2:


That's what backups are for!


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

TulsaOK said:


> And when the drive crashes, everything will be lost.  :eek2:


Well, there is that little problem too.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

jclewter79 said:


> I beleive in the future you will see larger and larger hard drives replacing our old dvd racks. Sooner or later I think we will purchase all media and save it on a hard drive. TV and Internet will be totally intergrated and hard copies of media will be almost obsolete when price and storage space are considered.


Right now it is not really any cheaper to burn a DVD (w/hard case) then it is to just store it on an external HD. And the quality of a HD movie burned on a DVD is not as good as the quality of a HD movie stored on a hard drive.

What I wish E* would come out with is a small player that would allow us to play movies stored on an EHD.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HobbyTalk said:


> What I wish E* would come out with is a small player that would allow us to play movies stored on an EHD.


Like a ViP-211? 

It appears they are going in that direction.


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

HobbyTalk said:


> Looking at the TiVo site, per their FAQ, they use eSATA and not USB for connecting extrental HDs.
> 
> You have to use a TiVo branded EHD.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your comment. I have to find out about more my brother's TiVo, but I'm pretty sure it's connected thru an USB connection. I think he also said that he can disconnect the EHD and do whatever he wants with its content. I'll find out. In any case, I'm not putting one over the other. Right now, I'm stuck with a Motorola DVR and let me tell you that's really a bad DVR.:nono2:


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Just going by the TiVo External Storage Device web page - http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/domore/storage/index.html
http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/domore/storage/faqs.html


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

James Long said:


> Like a ViP-211?
> 
> It appears they are going in that direction.


Even smaller then that. Just a box to plug in the EHD with an HDMI/componant out to plug into any TV. That should be able to be done in a box the size of a paperback.. look at AppleTV. I'd much rather have one EHD rather then 80 DVDs. What keeps me burning DVDs is that the programming on the EHD has to be played back thru a VIP receiver. If I decide I want to go to another service at a later date I want to be able to view the programming I have saved.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

TulsaOK said:


> And when the drive crashes, everything will be lost. :eek2:





HobbyTalk said:


> That's what backups are for!


Good point! It's the rule of good computer systems management. Now if I could backup the stuff to the EHD instead of it holding the only copy....:nono2:


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## booger (Nov 1, 2005)

I've been wondering. Would backing up my external hard drive to another hard drive of the same size, strictly as a backup, would that be in violation of any kind??

It's going to be the end user's responsibility to backup their programming. I for one don't want to lose all my archived programming.

What do you all think?

I'm thinking about trying to mirror the drive bit for bit. Not sure if it's even possible.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

phrelin said:


> Good point! It's the rule of good computer systems management. Now if I could backup the stuff to the EHD instead of it holding the only copy....:nono2:


It would be great to easily do that. Wonder if a product like Ghost would allow that to be done?


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

DRM!!!!!

ONE copy!!!


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

Some things I can say about the external hard drive:

1. You can watch a program direct from the external from either TV

2. The size remains the same. I have noticed that recordings made from HD Max which still uses Mpeg2 compression is almost twice as large as recordings made from Mpeg4 sources. Of course this is also affected by what Dish sets that channels compression for. In other words... the better the quality the more space it takes and in general Mpeg2 takes more room than Mpeg4 compression.

3. It takes a LONG LONG time to move stuff over from the 622/722 to the external. Expect hours for 100gig of data. I often do my moving overnight while I'm sleeping.

4. I have noticed that the quality of fast foward, skip etc... is much less (clunky?) when watching things direct from the external. This might have alot to do with the quality/speed of the external hard drive you are using and perhaps on the fragmentation of the drive. I notice this less when the hard drive is less full (less frag?) than when it's almost full.

Hope this helps.

-JB


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

HobbyTalk said:


> Looking at the TiVo site, per their FAQ, they use eSATA and not USB for connecting extrental HDs.
> 
> You have to use a TiVo branded EHD.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are right about the method of connecting. Which is not too bad taking in consideration the eSata velocity (speeds up to 3Gbps) compared to USB 2.0 (speeds up to 4800 Mbit/sec). That will help with the transition when pulling information out of the EHD. He creates his archives by connecting his box to his computer and saving the recordings inside the computer or externally. (That means every recording except only HBO, which doesn't allow this) Also, other users around the house can pull recordings from the TiVo box/EHD combo by either having another TIVo box or computer connected to the same network. That's kind of neat. Again, what I'm doing is trying to compare features or why the system was creating in a certain way. I do know that Comcast wasn't too happy when he asked for a card to connect his TiVo. In my case, I'm just trying to see what is economically more convenient and versatile. In any case, when you can connect your box to your network it opens up a lot possibilities. Thanks again for all your responses.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

The big disadvantage I see is that only one EHD can be used on the TiVo. If you pull that EHD to put on another one, you lose the recordings. Some people have a half dozen EHDs in use with the E* systems. For the price of a computer to store backups, you can buy a half dozen or more USB HDs and not have to worry about transferring things back and forth to watch. Just comparing too.


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

HobbyTalk said:


> The big disadvantage I see is that only one EHD can be used on the TiVo. If you pull that EHD to put on another one, you lose the recordings. Some people have a half dozen EHDs in use with the E* systems. For the price of a computer to store backups, you can buy a half dozen or more USB HDs and not have to worry about transferring things back and forth to watch. Just comparing too.


Yes, I see your point too. I'll say that if you are really into all this stuff of networking and already have something in place, the TiVo could be a good choice. So you can pass the recording to your system and create DVD's from the recordings or convert them and take them to your pda or whatever. Yes, of course you'll have to pay for the box, but at least it's yours. Then, you'll could remove the DVR fee from Comcast. I think is 12.95 and pay the 12 bucks to TiVo. In the end, I think is a matter of convenience and see how much you can get out of it and at the same time trying to balance all the costs that come from subscribing to any all these companies. I'm just exploring all the options available. Thanks again for your comment.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Yep, each person has different needs. It's good there are options available!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

jvelez67 said:


> Yes, you are right about the method of connecting. Which is not too bad taking in consideration the eSata velocity (speeds up to 3Gbps) compared to USB 2.0 (speeds up to 4800 Mbit/sec).


I'm too lazy to look up numbers to verify them... but you do realize that 4800 Mbits/sec is greater than 3Gbps, right?

Maybe you mistyped something... but otherwise I think you made the opposite point of the one you intended to make.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

jrb531 said:


> 2. The size remains the same. I have noticed that recordings made from HD Max which still uses Mpeg2 compression is almost twice as large as recordings made from Mpeg4 sources. Of course this is also affected by what Dish sets that channels compression for. In other words... the better the quality the more space it takes and in general Mpeg2 takes more room than Mpeg4 compression.


I thought MAX and Starz HD were both MPEG4. I believe only SHO and HBOHD (for the premium channels) are MPEG2.


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

HDMe said:


> I'm too lazy to look up numbers to verify them... but you do realize that 4800 Mbits/sec is greater than 3Gbps, right?
> 
> Maybe you mistyped something... but otherwise I think you made the opposite point of the one you intended to make.


No. That's not the case. It's just faster. Check the comparison table on this list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esata#External_SATA

It's 3000 Mbps (3Gbps). The G standing Giga, which is 10X9 or 1,000,000,000 instead or the Mbps. The M standing for Mega, which 10X6 or 1,000,000. I know, I was also unaware about this kind of external HD. Anyway, I don't know what I'm going to do just yet. Thanks for your comment.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

HDMe said:


> I thought MAX and Starz HD were both MPEG4. I believe only SHO and HBOHD (for the premium channels) are MPEG2.


I'm not sure. I had assumed that any of the pay premiums were still Mpeg2 to allow the greatest number of people to view them but you may be correct.

-JB


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jvelez67 said:


> No. That's not the case. It's just faster. Check the comparison table on this list.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esata#External_SATA
> 
> It's 3000 Mbps (3Gbps). The G standing Giga, which is 10X9 or 1,000,000,000 instead or the Mbps. The M standing for Mega, which 10X6 or 1,000,000. I know, I was also unaware about this kind of external HD. Anyway, I don't know what I'm going to do just yet. Thanks for your comment.


Ignoring the 1024 factor ...

3Gbps = 3000 Mbps is less than 4800 Mbps.


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## booger (Nov 1, 2005)

USB 2.0 is 480Mbps not 4800Mbps.

eSATA is a superior to USB 2.0. Until the new USB standard comes out that is.


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

James Long said:


> Ignoring the 1024 factor ...
> 
> 3Gbps = 3000 Mbps is less than 4800 Mbps.


My mistake! I should have said 480 Mbps and not and 4800 Also, if you check the comparison table included in the link, it states the Raw bandwidth of USB 2.0 at 480 Mbit/s and the eSata at 3000 Mbit/s. And the Transfer speed at 60 MB/s for the USB 2.0 and 375 MB/s for the eSata. Unless the table is wrong I think the eSata is faster.


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

booger said:


> USB 2.0 is 480Mbps not 4800Mbps.
> 
> eSATA is a superior to USB 2.0. Until the new USB standard comes out that is.


Yes, it's around 4800 Mbit/s and I think is coming out in a few years.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

booger said:


> USB 2.0 is 480Mbps not 4800Mbps.
> 
> eSATA is a superior to USB 2.0. Until the new USB standard comes out that is.


That's what I was thinking... I figured out later (after my post) that he probably typoed things. Otherwise his post was backwards from what he meant.

I'm less familiar with eSata, but was thinking it should be faster than USB 2.0


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

HDMe said:


> That's what I was thinking... I figured out later (after my post) that he probably typoed things. Otherwise his post was backwards from what he meant.
> 
> I'm less familiar with eSata, but was thinking it should be faster than USB 2.0


Hi. Yes, I made a mistake when typing. Thank you for noticing that guys. In any case, that's could be why my brother says he doesn't notice any deterioration in the playback coming from either the box or the EHD. In the end, the TiVo may be better or more efficient (you can share pictures on the network and also connect to Picassa and do some other stuff or whatever) but what I'm trying to do is to see how can save some bucks somehow and try get a decent type of configuration for recording and playback.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

booger said:


> It's going to be the end user's responsibility to backup their programming. I for one don't want to lose all my archived programming.
> 
> What do you all think?
> 
> I'm thinking about trying to mirror the drive bit for bit. Not sure if it's even possible.


A backup drive, even if it has to be limited to running on a Dish DVR, would really be ideal. But under the current Dish software, it's no one's responsibility to backup recorded content until someone figures out how to do it.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

There is no deterioration in the playback using Dish's EHD. A couple of HD streams comes nowhere near using up USB's bandwidth.


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## jvelez67 (Aug 9, 2004)

HobbyTalk said:


> There is no deterioration in the playback using Dish's EHD. A couple of HD streams comes nowhere near using up USB's bandwidth.


That's great. I mean, I don't own any of them and I'm not favoring neither. I think all depends of what is your circumstance at the moment. In any case, this faster speed could help when transferring recordings. Someone said that it could take hours to do this (post #21) when using the E* box.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Yep, it does take some time to transfer programs. I would guess it is so enough bandwidth is reserved for viewing. Not really a problem because you most likely wouldn't be watching something you are transfering. Generally once a week I'll see what I have saved on the internal HD and move them to the EHD if I want to save them long term to view later. You just set the transfer, you don't have to do anything else, it's done when it's done.

From what I read this isn't a problem with TiVo because programs are recorded partly on the internal HD and partly on the extrenal HD at the same time. The external HD on the TiVo isn't really a backup or archive device, it just expands the built-in HD. Once it's filled up you have to delete programs to save new ones. You can't use multiple extrnal HDs. On the Dish EHD, you just plug in a new EHD when the one you have is full and you keep the ones you have stored on the EHD you unplugged.

Not trying to convince you one way or the other. Each system has a different use. The TiVo EHD expands the internal HD. Once filled it is done for additional programming unless you delete programs or save the programming to a computer. The Dish EHD is for archiving where you can have unlimited HD space for saving and playing back programming by just plugging in a new EHD.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

jvelez67 said:


> That's great. I mean, I don't own any of them and I'm not favoring neither. I think all depends of what is your circumstance at the moment. In any case, this faster speed could help when transferring recordings. Someone said that it could take hours to do this (post #21) when using the E* box.


USB 2.0 does have plenty of bandwidth, but there is more to consider than that. You also have the drive itself to consider and the processing time for accessing the USB port.

I don't have anywhere near the data to figure it all out... but generally speaking, people don't try to multitask as much with external USB drives as they would an internal Sata/IDE/SCSI/whatever drive. eSata may be a horse of a different color as it seems to behave more like SCSI did in terms of external vs internal didn't matter on the same chain.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

phrelin said:


> A backup drive, even if it has to be limited to running on a Dish DVR, would really be ideal. But under the current Dish software, it's no one's responsibility to backup recorded content until someone figures out how to do it.


My bad!:bang

I should have known making a backup would be my responsibility somehow. On another thread James explained:


James Long said:


> <snip>It was even mentioned on a Charlie Chat last year (CEO Charlie Ergen suggested that people record shows twice if they wanted to transfer one to the PocketDISH and keep one on the DVR).


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

HobbyTalk said:


> That's what backups are for!


What is the procedure for backing up your external hard drive? Inquiring minds want to know.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

jclewter79 said:


> Well, there is that little problem too.


Oddly enough, after the L4.49 update my external drive did fail and I lost everything on it. What a pisser.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

TulsaOK said:


> Oddly enough, after the L4.49 update my external drive did fail and I lost everything on it. What a pisser.


that stinks man:eek2:


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