# For those that got 1 month free locals frome the L216 fix



## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

For those that received 1 month free locals for the L216 fix. Do you plan on keeping them longer than needed?

Was wondering if receiving free locals for one month is enough to get you to offically subscribe for more. *L216 may cost dish* allot because non-subscribers are being *activated at Dishnetwork''s expense* but could it *produce even more futire profits* if the non-subscribers continue the scriptions.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

While there is an advantage to having the SD locals as part of my subscription, (dual tuner and PIP availability) the PQ of the satellite delivered locals has not improved to the point where I would want to pay for them. I can see faint ghosting on all the LIL Cleveland locals (I did an A/B compairison with the digital OTA signals out of the s-video output of the 921). When an LIL fades to black there is posterization. Bottom line the LIL's are just not "clean" enough on my analog Sony 27". I can only imaginine that they would only look worse on an HDTV screen.

I am gratreful for E* for turning the LIL's on as a temporary fix, I only hope that the permanent fix keeps some form of the guide data on for non-subscribers. After all we are already paying an extra $4.98 for the "DVR" function. That should include all guide data with no discrimination to the non LIL subs. Why is it that the 811 subs never had to fight to get OTA data in their EPG's?


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

Even with my locals "turned on," I still don't get guide info on all the local digitals. I'm missing FOX, PBS, UPN, and PAX. The data show up in the 8xxx channels, but not in the digitals. I would NEVER pay a cent for this level of service, especially if I can get the analogs just fine OTA.

Now, if they would offer me 9-day guide data on digital locals (ALL DIGITALS) without actually subbing to SD locals for, say, $1-2/month, I might be tempted to be extorted. I do agree with Michael P that this service absolutely SHOULD be included in the DVR fee.

Brad


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Bradtothebone said:


> Even with my locals "turned on," I still don't get guide info on all the local digitals. I'm missing FOX, PBS, UPN, and PAX. The data show up in the 8xxx channels, but not in the digitals. I would NEVER pay a cent for this level of service, especially if I can get the analogs just fine OTA.
> 
> Now, if they would offer me 9-day guide data on digital locals (ALL DIGITALS) without actually subbing to SD locals for, say, $1-2/month, I might be tempted to be extorted. I do agree with Michael P that this service absolutely SHOULD be included in the DVR fee.
> 
> Brad


What city does your locals come from. I'm getting FOX and PBS but UPN and PAX are not digital stations yet nor are they included in Rochester NY dish local package.

I plan to resubmit this poll (because it expires too soon) and change "maybe" to "maybe for a buck" because personally I don't need the actual channels but do like the guide info and scheduling events for OTA (in the same way as the sat channels).


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

There should be a feature called "manual mapping" where the USER gets to tell the 921 where to place the guide data. Example: In my DMA (Cleveland) we have 2 PBS stations. WVIZ's guide data via LIL's is useless because currently they do not broadcast a digital "copy" of their analog feed, however WEAO does broadcast a digital copy of their analog feed on 50-2. I wish I could map WEAO's guide data to 50-2 (as most already know currently no PBS guide data maps due to PBS HD not being int he guide data stream).

I don't know why other market's main network stations do not map, perhaps it's due to that market being on superdish.


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

Michael P said:


> WVIZ's guide data via LIL's is useless because currently they do not broadcast a digital "copy" of their analog feed.


Just fyi and fwiw, in the SFBay area, KQED PBS does the same thing. KQED-DT has 5 subchannels, none of which broadcast the same schedule as KQED analog. However in the 921 EPG, all *six* KQED feeds are correctly shown.

Cheers,
-Keith


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> There should be a feature called "manual mapping" where the USER gets to tell the 921 where to place the guide data. Example: In my DMA (Cleveland) we have 2 PBS stations. WVIZ's guide data via LIL's is useless because currently they do not broadcast a digital "copy" of their analog feed, however WEAO does broadcast a digital copy of their analog feed on 50-2. I wish I could map WEAO's guide data to 50-2 (as most already know currently no PBS guide data maps due to PBS HD not being int he guide data stream).
> 
> I don't know why other market's main network stations do not map, perhaps it's due to that market being on superdish.


WEAO requires the 61.5 satellite to map it. And WVIZ should have a digital station on chan 26. 
I doubt that dish would allow manual channel mapping in fact L216 is doing extra security steps to prevent non-subscribers from getting guide info. I believe they're doing a dish local to PSIP match and then deciding whether you're authorized although I don't think they meant remove the channel from the guide. Maybe L217 will better define the difference of guide data versus channel assignment.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I've edited the poll so that it will now close in about 3 weeks.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I've edited the poll so that it will now close in about 3 weeks.


*Mark:* Can you add a fourth option for the following?

"Guide for a Buck: Just to get the guide function without paying for the actual channels"


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

jergenf said:


> What city does your locals come from. I'm getting FOX and PBS but UPN and PAX are not digital stations yet nor are they included in Rochester NY dish local package.


Kansas City DMA - all on 110, I believe, but I could be wrong.

Brad


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Start another poll if you want to change it now. 

Mark- good you set an expiration date for the poll. It appears that the people here are too smart for the "candyman" marketing tactic. 

BTW- Yes, I would pay a $1 fee for enhanced TMS guide data service since it is a value added over what PSIP could ever be in it's current regulated state. I maintain that I will not buy LIL service as I would never use it! Especially not now as the part that I would use is still so darn full of bugs. Get it working and then I'll pay a dollar for value added OTA guide data only, even, if you also supply me with a PSIP version free.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

jergenf said:


> WEAO requires the 61.5 satellite to map it. And WVIZ should have a digital station on chan 26.
> I doubt that dish would allow manual channel mapping in fact L216 is doing extra security steps to prevent non-subscribers from getting guide info. I believe they're doing a dish local to PSIP match and then deciding whether you're authorized although I don't think they meant remove the channel from the guide. Maybe L217 will better define the difference of guide data versus channel assignment.


I have 61.5 dish so WEAO appears in my guide (thanks to the "temporary fix"). BTW: E* was forced to add guide data for the "side sats" to the satellite the rest of the DMA's LIL's (in Cleveland's case 110) with a screen telling the subscriber to call E* to arrange for a free side sat install. So even without a 61.5 dish both WEAO and WQHS guide data _should be_ on 110.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Bradtothebone said:


> Kansas City DMA - all on 110, I believe, but I could be wrong.
> 
> Brad


Assuming you mean KANSAS CITY Mo. they're all on 119 and if all these
channels are transmitting in digital and you can get them then these
eight OTA should have guide info in them. If they only appear the 8XXX
area that ok provided that you didn't loose any of your actual digital OTAs.

ABC-KMBC.
CBS-KCTV.
FOX-WDAF.
NBC-KSHB.
IND-KMCI.
PBS-KCPT.
UPN-KCWE.
WB-KSMO.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

jergenf said:


> Assuming you mean KANSAS CITY Mo. they're all on 119 and if all these
> channels are transmitting in digital and you can get them then these
> eight OTA should have guide info in them. If they only appear the 8XXX
> area that ok provided that you didn't loose any of your actual digital OTAs.
> ...


The guide data for all of these plus PAX (KPXE) appears in the 8xxx channels. Only ABC, CBS, NBC, WB, and IND populate over to the OTA locals. I understand why PBS doesn't, as KCPT uses the national PBS-HD feed for 19-1. FOX may be an issue because WDAF uses the digital rf number (34-1) instead of the analog number (4). No idea on why UPN and PAX (KPXE) don't work. Anybody else in the KC DMA seeing this?

Brad


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

jergenf - I don't see how your 4th option that you want added makes sense with this poll.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> jergenf - I don't see how your 4th option that you want added makes sense with this poll.


*Mark: I made this a separate thread so don't worry about adding it.*

Many people would like local guide info but don't want the channels themselves or to pay $5 a month.

Not sure if dish can or would want to sell local guide info as a standalone service but maybe they might consider it if they knew that there's a market for it.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

While _I_ would prefer it, I probably see an objection to Dish doing this legally. If they continue to not supply the PSIP EIT display that is being sent by the local stations and only offer the TMS guide for a price, it would appear as though they are intentionally stripping out the regulated guide to sell you their guide.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

DonLandis said:


> While _I_ would prefer it, I probably see an objection to Dish doing this legally. If they continue to not supply the PSIP EIT display that is being sent by the local stations and only offer the TMS guide for a price, it would appear as though they are intentionally stripping out the regulated guide to sell you their guide.


I agree that they should provide info using the PSIP even if they simply obtain the program name and start/end times they could create program blocks in the guide. Maybe there are problems with providing 9 day info as PSIP only provides just a few hours of info window.

They have yet to say if they've even tried to provide the PSIP feature so perhaps that's a lost cause. I'll create another poll that asks "what if dish was to provide local info in EPG as a separate service".


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

So far it apprears that nearly all of you will cancel your free locals. I agree that $5 is too much to pay for stations you already get for free (and possibly in HD).

Just FYI: There's another poll which asks if you would be willing to pay a $1 for the guide feature only that you're presently getting. The locals would appear in red in the 7000-9000 section of the guide but still mapped to your local area as they are now.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

> I agree that $5 is too much to pay for stations you already get for free (and possibly in HD).


 It's actually $6 - .01 for pixillated, posterized upconverted analog reception complete with ghosts on some channels. vs. Free Digital, sometimes HD pristine reception.

If there was one station that I could not get OTA in my DMA I _might_ consider spending the $5.99/mo. Unfortunately (for E*) that channel has just been added to D*'s Cleveland LIL's (WMFD Mansfiled, OH) and still not on E*.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Nearly 89 percent will cancel their subscription after the free trial period. This leaves 11 percent who plan to continue their subscription for the valuable guide information. 
*Just an FYI:* They're web sites that provide free local guide info that you can printout using your computer. Might want to save the $5 bucks for Voom instead.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

jergenf said:


> Nearly 89 percent will cancel their subscription after the free trial period. This leaves 11 percent who plan to continue their subscription for the valuable guide information.
> *Just an FYI:* They're web sites that provide free local guide info that you can printout using your computer. Might want to save the $5 bucks for Voom instead.


Unless there is a way to integrate my computer with my 921 so I can set a timer, those Web TV guides are useless.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

jergenf said:


> Nearly 89 percent will cancel their subscription after the free trial period. This leaves 11 percent who plan to continue their subscription for the valuable guide information.
> *Just an FYI:* They're web sites that provide free local guide info that you can printout using your computer. Might want to save the $5 bucks for Voom instead.


The reason I subscribe to the locals is not so much for the guide information but for the stations themselves. My local DT stations are so flaky that sometimes they're working and sometimes they're not. I don't want to be caught without the station all together. I only add the DT stations to the 921 and not the analog stations because the analog versions look so bad.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> Unless there is a way to integrate my computer with my 921 so I can set a timer, those Web TV guides are useless.


Try "*TitanTv.com*" they have both complete analog and digital channel info for every city in the US. They even have the satellite guide for DirectTv and Dishnetwork.

If you have a TV or video capture board in your computer you can integrate the RF or s-video of the 921 to your computer. The satellite box will exist as a partial or full window on your computer screen.

You can also take the composite video out from your graphics board and connect it to the video input of the 921 but I imagine it would look awful.

Of course you computer would reside in your living room as home entertainment PC.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

lujan said:


> The reason I subscribe to the locals is not so much for the guide information but for the stations themselves. My local DT stations are so flaky that sometimes they're working and sometimes they're not. I don't want to be caught without the station all together. I only add the DT stations to the 921 and not the analog stations because the analog versions look so bad.


A few months ago I had the same problem where I was unable to get some digital channels for days throughout the week. I set the 921 for analog as well as digital. Some of the analogs (usually UHF) were rather ghosty but I got use to it well before I had the 921. Lately I've been getting all digital channels on a 24 hour basis and I'm spoiled especially with FOX and PBS being HD full time.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Nearly 90% are not going to keep the locals, there's good news because it demostrates that people feel that the feature isn't worth $60-72 in annual cost.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

I'm sure by now most of you gave up your free locals. I received a *bill for $12 for my FREE locals* . Has anyone been charged? I of course had them remove the charges and reminded them it was suppose to be free (or pre-credited). Guess they were hoping I wouldn't notice or changed my mind or something.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

They gave me a credit for a whole month, and I only had the locals for around 27 days, so I actually made money on the deal. I'm RICH!!!!!

BTW, my EPG for the digitals disappeared pretty much immediately, as expected.

Brad


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

I never got the credit they promised but they did take away the $11.78 charge after I complained about being billed. In the end I got the 1 month of locals for free, big deal, I only watched the OTA anyways but nice to see the guide info.


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## William_K_F (Apr 20, 2002)

I was getting OTA guide data without locals, but I dropped AT180 , distant networks, distant superstations, and cinemax. This left me with just HBO, $5 fee for low programming, and DVR fee.

However, it also left me with no more OTA guide data.

They've given me one month of free locals since that works around the problem and said to call back and if not fixed yet, another month could be credited.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

William_K_F said:


> I was getting OTA guide data without locals, but I dropped AT180 , distant networks, distant superstations, and cinemax. This left me with just HBO, $5 fee for low programming, and DVR fee.
> 
> However, it also left me with no more OTA guide data.
> 
> They've given me one month of free locals since that works around the problem and said to call back and if not fixed yet, another month could be credited.


Ah, unless they changed their policy they don't want you to have an OTA guide unless you subscribe. A few posters here say they are getting the guide data without subscribing - but they are the few. Most of us non subscribers (to LIL) get "Local Programming" for every program :MAD:

BTW when I dropped the temporary LIL's I too "made out" ~$3.00 for my troubles.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

William_K_F said:


> They've given me one month of free locals since that works around the problem and said to call back and if not fixed yet, another month could be credited.


The problem that L216 was fixed a week later with L218 so make sure you're not still paying for locals. You mentioned something about giving up distant networks or was that the locals you got for free?


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