# DirecTV receivers and HDMI problems



## Stevie

The reason for this post is to see how prevalent this problem is and what people believe may be causing the problem.

I'm a service provider for three companies that service warranty claims for HDTV manufacturers. In other words, I'm the guy that goes to end users' homes, opens up the 32" or larger TV and replaces bad components. I've been doing this for 2.5 years. The companies that subcontract me service mainly two of the largest selling brands and also some minor ones.

Beginning last year about this time and affecting all TV brands that I service, I started seeing issues where HDTV's main boards were needing to be replaced because one or more HDMI inputs had failed. In the past few months, this has grown to be the most common problem/repair with the TV's that I service.

What has been glaringly obvious is that this HDMI problem always involves a DirecTV receiver (most recent models: HR24-200, HR24-100, R22-200). I have yet to see an HDMI problem that involves a Dish receiver. Cable receiver HDMI problems are very rare and usually isolated to audio problems and not video.

When I question the end user about the problem while I am repairing the TV, the story is usually the same: The HDMI input in use goes out first, end user puts it in others, then they go out shortly afterward.

Initially after the repair, the same receiver was connected and the problem often repeated itself. Now after a repair with this particular problem, I am leaving the end users' homes with their TV's connected with composite or component cables and recommending to not reconnect their repaired TV via HDMI until the receiver is replaced.

Since I began suggesting having the receivers replaced, "repeat business" has dwindled. 

All three warranty companies have asked me to record and forward the model numbers of the receivers connected - I'm assuming at the request of the TV manufacturers.

I'm not an electrician, just an A+ certified computer tech. I swap boards, solve problems and try to make end users happy.

So anyone know anything that could shed some light on this?

Thanks,
Steve


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## Beerstalker

I've had my receivers hooked up over HDMI for over 3 years now and haven't had a single HDMI port go bad. However I am using HR21 and HR22 HD-DVRs, and you seem to be having more problems with the HR24s from your post.


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## cajunrc

I started having HDMI problems when my HR20 was replaced with a HR24-500.
At first it had trouble handshaking with an HD channel so I would go to an SD channel for a few minutes and back and it would work. After a while it quit. This was not my tv but my Onkyo AV receiver that was bad as after that i could not even use the DVD player throught it and had to have the Onkyo repaired at a cost of over $100.00. At the time Doug Brot contacted me about my posts but I never heard anything else about DTV receivers.


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## Carl Spock

This is a new one to me but you can check it out for yourself, Stevie. Do a search of the DirecTV forums using the search terms "HDMI" and "bad", and you won't find much. Maybe some of the jacks on HR20s are starting to go bad, but some of those DVRs may be 5 years old and it wouldn't be unusual to find more failures on them.

I'm still trying to figure out how a HDMI output could blow up a TV's input board. Maybe if there was a short but that is just as likely to come from a cable. You don't say if you replace the HDMI cables in these situations. In 30 years of selling consumer audio, about the only service truism I've found to be accurate is "Suspect the least expensive component first." That would be the $10 cable.

Coincidence is an amazing thing. Especially when you are looking for them, they are all over the place. When you buy a new car, all of a sudden everybody you see on the road is now driving that car. Two days before, you never noticed them. Maybe there is some cause and effect with the TV input boards going out and DirecTV receivers, but at least from other people posting on this forum, I haven't seen it.

One last thing: I'm one of those folks who absolutely hates HDMI connectors. It is the worst connector the consumer electronics industry has ever come up with. It's funky, doesn't seat well, can easy to come loose and sometimes requires software updates to work right. I'd blame HDMI for these problems before I'd blame the DVR, but then, that's me. My coincidences tell me that HDMI is the source of all evil when things go bad. :grin:

EDIT: Four years between registering and your first post, Stevie! That's a feat. I waited over three years before I made my first post and look where I'm at now. It's all downhill from here, Stevie.


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## Church AV Guy

Carl Spock said:


> ... I'm one of those folks who absolutely hates HDMI connectors. It is the worst connector the consumer electronics industry has ever come up with. It's funky, doesn't seat well, can easy to come loose and sometimes requires software updates to work right...


I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here. While the HDMI connector is hardly great, it's far from the worst connector in the industry. Heck, the standard RCA connector is absolutely TERRIBLE. Whoever thought that connecthing the SIGNAL *BEFORE* the ground was a good idea? The standard NEMA power cord is nearly a disaster in that is comes loose so very easily, and is so bulky, a strain relief created a strain loop in the wire.

Yes, the HDMI connector is far from perfect, but it is also far from the worst. My biggest problem with it you never even mentioned. It is so long, and it sticks out so far, it is fairly easy to damage the socket it plugs into just by flexing the wire.


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## Carl Spock

I can't disagree with a word you said, Church AV Guy. 

Especially when you point out another problem with a HDMI connector.


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## NR4P

3 out of 4 of my TV's are connected via HDMI.
One is an HR24 and nothing has blown out in six months.

But I will say the HDMI connection on the HR24 is a wee bit flakey. Have a thick 12' cable going to the connector and it stresses it abit and can lose audio/video by wiggling it.


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## David MacLeod

I've been using, with no adverse effects, the monoprice swivel (link) to reduce strain and help with the room taken by cable sticking straight out.
initially I used these for tight space but noticed they exert a bit less leverage on port so use them in a few spots. have not had any issues with them.


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## allenn

I had an HR21-200 for 3 years before the HDMI port went North. I tried a new cable to no avail. If I wiggled the HDMI cable the picture would come back on. D* replaced the DVR with an HR22-100. I am using the original HDMI cable with no problem other than slow response and channel changes.


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## Rich

I've got seven Panasonic plasmas and use only HDMI cables on them. Some of the TVs have three HDMI feeds on them. I've never had a problem with the HDMI inputs. I do use 90 degree HDMI connectors in some places to relieve the strain on the cables. 

If you're servicing Sony or Samsung TVs, they have always had HDMI problems. Those problems seem to be restricted to the TVs and not the D* DVRs.

I have had one D* DVR that had a problem, but that was a physical problem caused by the previous owner digging around inside the box and wrecking the internal part of the HDMI port. 

Rich


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## mis3

I have my DTV receiver and other inputs going to my Onkyo receiver via HDMI, then from receiver to TV via HDMI. Whenever I get a DTV firmware update, the HDMI video path stops working on my receiver. I can use HDMI directly from each component to TV, but not through receiver. I normally play around with the wires for a couple of hours, then eventually give up and connect directly to TV. About 24 hours later, the issue resolves itself and I can go back to using the receiver to pass through HDMI video signals.

I wonder if there is anything similar going on here. If not, is anyone else having the same problem as me with their HDMI video through a receiver?


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## Rich

mis3 said:


> I have my DTV receiver and other inputs going to my Onkyo receiver via HDMI, then from receiver to TV via HDMI. Whenever I get a DTV firmware update, the HDMI video path stops working on my receiver. I can use HDMI directly from each component to TV, but not through receiver. I normally play around with the wires for a couple of hours, then eventually give up and connect directly to TV. About 24 hours later, the issue resolves itself and I can go back to using the receiver to pass through HDMI video signals.
> 
> I wonder if there is anything similar going on here. If not, is anyone else having the same problem as me with their HDMI video through a receiver?


I don't have any problems with my two HDMI enabled Sony AV receivers.

Rich


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## CCarncross

Never had any issues like you describe using the same wiring scheme through my Denon.


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## ThomasM

I have a Toshiba REGZA HDTV connected to my R22-200 via HDMI and it's been working for over 2 years now.

It does have a bizzare problem though. If I turn the TV and the DVR on simultaneously using the DirecTV remote, and the TV was tuned to DirecTV, everything works fine. If I turn the TV on (but not the DVR) and watch shows OTA using the TV's tuner, DVD player, etc. and THEN turn on the DVR and switch the TV's input to DirecTV, after an hour or two the audio suddenly sounds like Donald Duck. Switching the input (via the TV remote) back to the TV's tuner and then back to DirecTV fixes the problem (for an hour or two).

Like I said, bizzare, no?


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## Stevie

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

One clarification: I didn't mean to imply that it's widespread or a big enough problem to draw conclusions or concerns. I'm assigned to a large area in the center of my state (non-metropolitan area) and I notice when the same problems happen more than others. I haven't ruled out the TV models or even a compatibility issue with the TV and receiver.

Until this HDMI issue started popping up, the only regular issue was a capacitor problem on the power boards of some HDTV models. Some manufacturers were repairing these after the normal warranty period.


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## az99

My Dynex lost all 3 HDMI inputs while connected to a HR24.


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## waylonrobert

I've had multiple HD boxes over the past 2 years connected via HDMI and never had any issues.


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## detlanta

Stevie, I know exactly what you're talking about. Ive had direct tv for 2 months now and I've been thru 4 HD boxes and both of my tv main boards went out TWICE. I've had 2 electricians check it out and numerous DTV techs and they can't tell me what it is. IF YOU FIND OUT WHAT IT IS PLEASE LET ME KNOW


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## veryoldschool

Reading this thread has several different issues.
I haven't had any using HDMI, but I wonder about the OP's question, and if it could be due to a grounding problem?


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> Reading this thread has several different issues.
> I haven't had any using HDMI, but I wonder about the OP's question, and if it could be due to a grounding problem?


Something I've alway wondered about: Why don't the HRs use a three prong plug? They bond the HDD to the chassis in most of the HRs I've opened up. Wouldn't it be simpler just to ground the whole system from the ground in the receptacles?

Rich


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## veryoldschool

rich584 said:


> Something I've alway wondered about: Why don't the HRs use a three prong plug? They bond the HDD to the chassis in most of the HRs I've opened up. Wouldn't it be simpler just to ground the whole system from the ground in the receptacles?
> 
> Rich


Why? :shrug:
As you know "grounding" can be a can of worms.
Did some "PHD" lol decide that grounding the dish, which connects to the cased and using a three prong plug would cause issues with two grounds? :shrug:


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> Why? :shrug:
> As you know "grounding" can be a can of worms.
> Did some "PHD" lol decide that grounding the dish, which connects to the cased and using a three prong plug would cause issues with two grounds? :shrug:


Seems like the simplest thing to do, but most of my components such as BD players and the HRs use two prong plugs. And they are all polarized. That's always puzzled me. Must be a good reason for it. Can't be a cost factor. It's so simple and cost effective. Gotta be a good reason for it. Somebody know? Anybody? WAGs appreciated...:lol:

Rich


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## David MacLeod

older houses STILL may have non polarized 2 prong (polarized will fit either way in them) and adapters are usually misused. you ever see anyone ever actually bond the pigtail?


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## Rich

David MacLeod said:


> older houses STILL may have non polarized 2 prong (polarized will fit either way in them) and adapters are usually misused. you ever see anyone ever actually bond the pigtail?


I used to, but every outlet in my home has been converted to three prongs. Most have GFIs on them. I'm way too familiar with electricity to take chances with it.

We had a mechanic take a wicked shock using a double insulated drill. After that it became mandatory for them to carry GFI adapters with them. They aren't just for "ground fault" protection. They also sense an imbalance between the neutral and hot wires. We found that out the hard way.

But, I really did use that pigtail every time I used an adapter. Minor PITA.

Rich


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## veryoldschool

rich584 said:


> I used to, but every outlet in my home has been converted to three prongs. Most have GFIs on them. I'm way to*o* familiar with electricity to take chances with it.
> 
> Rich


Fixed that, and can't believe you let that pass, after "dock & pier". :lol:


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> Fixed that, and can't believe you let that pass, after "dock & pier". :lol:


And you thought I was perfect...:lol:

Rich


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## Rich

rich584 said:


> Seems like the simplest thing to do, but most of my components such as BD players and the HRs use two prong plugs. And they are all polarized. That's always puzzled me. Must be a good reason for it. Can't be a cost factor. It's so simple and cost effective. Gotta be a good reason for it. Somebody know? Anybody? WAGs appreciated...:lol:
> 
> Rich


I really expected an answer to this question. Nothing?

Rich


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## veryoldschool

rich584 said:


> I really expected an answer to this question. Nothing?
> 
> Rich


Maybe the simplest answer is these don't cause ground loop problems.


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> Maybe the simplest answer is these don't cause ground loop problems.


That must be a purely electronic problem, no? I've never run into that problem with grounding in an electrical context. If the grounding block that is now used with the cabling is connected to the house ground, which it is, then the grounded plug system, the three prong plug going into the grounded receptacle, is gonna have the same reference to the same ground. Where does the "loop problem" come into play? I don't see how that could happen.

Rich


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## veryoldschool

rich584 said:


> That must be a purely electronic problem, no? I've never run into that problem with grounding in an electrical context. If the grounding block that is now used with the cabling is connected to the house ground, which it is, then the grounded plug system, the three prong plug going into the grounded receptacle, is gonna have the same reference to the same ground. Where does the "loop problem" come into play? I don't see how that could happen.
> 
> Rich


I would guarantee your wiring is "top notch", but 60 cycle "hum" can be fairly common with audio equipment, so "floating" is an easy way to reduce it.


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> I would guarantee your wiring is "top notch", but 60 cycle "hum" can be fairly common with audio equipment, so "floating" is an easy way to reduce it.


By "floating", you mean no reference to ground? I don't think my AV receivers have three prong plugs either. I know I have no 60 cycle hum in any of them.

Rich


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## David MacLeod

rich584 said:


> I really expected an answer to this question. Nothing?
> 
> Rich


was answered.
too many places that 3 prong won't work while polarized will.
not every older home is owned by an electrician.

also overseas polarized is replacing the prong type (god I hated them, broke easy) so they work there too.
combo of these 2 issues.


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## Rich

David MacLeod said:


> was answered.
> too many places that 3 prong won't work while polarized will.
> not every older home is owned by an electrician.
> 
> also overseas polarized is replacing the prong type (god I hated them, broke easy) so they work there too.
> combo of these 2 issues.


But all TVs have 3 prong plugs, at least the new ones. All polarized two wire plugs do is keep the chassis from being hot.

Or am I missing something?

Rich


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## David MacLeod

you're missing the simplicity of it.
build an item people can use as is or build one they have to buy an adapter to use.
what do you think is going to happen?
lower draw items can get away w/o 3 prong. so why use it?


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## Rich

David MacLeod said:


> you're missing the simplicity of it.
> build an item people can use as is or build one they have to buy an adapter to use.
> what do you think is going to happen?
> lower draw items can get away w/o 3 prong. so why use it?


Gotta admit it's kind of hard for me envision that, but you're probably right.

Rich


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## David MacLeod

had some older (mid 2004 or so) trade magazines around work tht talked about this, cannot remember much else or would link it.


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## Rich

David MacLeod said:


> had some older (mid 2004 or so) trade magazines around work tht talked about this, cannot remember much else or would link it.


I have no idea when the NEC mandated three prong 120V plugs, but my house is almost 50 years old and it had three prong plugs throughout the house when we moved in. Over the course of the first year we lived here, I changed all the receptacles and switches and everything else I could without ripping down walls. Most of the receptacles were still viable, but the switches were in terrible condition. Some fell apart when I removed the screws holding the wires. Some fell apart as I pulled them from the boxes. But they were all well grounded.

When we moved into the house it was about 25-2? years old. Gives you an idea how long switches last. Probably about time to do it all again. At least there was no BX in the house, but a lot of the wiring is the cloth covered type. Don't know if that's called Romex or not. As long as it's not brittle, I've left it alone.

Rich


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## Insanity199

Let me know if this is what you are talking about.

Just today, my wife tried to use our tv setup. Nothing would display on the TV (not the HD24 DirectTV box, nor the XBOX 360 nor the PS3). My setup was all three of those components going to a Pioneer 1021 receiver via HDMI and then one HDMI cable going to my LG TV. This all worked the previous night.

After a bit of troubleshooting I found the following:

Receiver will no longer detect HDMI devices regardless of the input that is used. (Just the other day, all worked). So it looks like the HDMI board in my receiver is shot.

PS3 and XBOX going straight to TV works perfectly fine.
DirecTV box HDMI no longer works anywhere, I have tried several cables and different tvs where a DirecTV HD24 box is working fine.

So, at the same time that my DirecTV HD24 box's HDMI output goes bad, so do all the HDMI ports on my receiver. Coincidence that when my wife tried to use the DirecTV box this morning, the HDMI on it goes kaput and so does the HDMI board in my receiver? Hmmmm, sounds exactly like what you are talking about.


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## Dr_J

Gosh, this thread scares me. I just switched to HDMI two months ago and to an HR24-500 a week and a half ago. :eek2:


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## veryoldschool

Dr_J said:


> Gosh, this thread scares me. I just switched to HDMI two months ago and to an HR24-500 a week and a half ago. :eek2:


I've been using HDMI since '06, so maybe not be too worried.
What NO ONE has yet checked/replied to is about their grounding.


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## ndole

I've seen this issue a LOT lately. We've been pushing the grounding code on every install/upgrade/service call in our market, and since then I've been running into this problem almost every day.


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## ndole

Surge>Backfeed through D* ground to the IRD>Bridge to the HDMI to the tv (which has 3 prongs?) Toast?


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## Stevie

Update. I am still seeing this happening in my area but it is becoming less frequent. On some of the last few service calls I did for this problem, the owners said it might have been storm related. Currently seems to be a mix of Motorola cable (20%) and DirecTV satellite (70%).


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## Stevie

Insanity199 said:


> Let me know if this is what you are talking about.
> 
> Just today, my wife tried to use our tv setup. Nothing would display on the TV (not the HD24 DirectTV box, nor the XBOX 360 nor the PS3). My setup was all three of those components going to a Pioneer 1021 receiver via HDMI and then one HDMI cable going to my LG TV. This all worked the previous night.
> 
> After a bit of troubleshooting I found the following:
> 
> Receiver will no longer detect HDMI devices regardless of the input that is used. (Just the other day, all worked). So it looks like the HDMI board in my receiver is shot.
> 
> PS3 and XBOX going straight to TV works perfectly fine.
> DirecTV box HDMI no longer works anywhere, I have tried several cables and different tvs where a DirecTV HD24 box is working fine.
> 
> So, at the same time that my DirecTV HD24 box's HDMI output goes bad, so do all the HDMI ports on my receiver. Coincidence that when my wife tried to use the DirecTV box this morning, the HDMI on it goes kaput and so does the HDMI board in my receiver? Hmmmm, sounds exactly like what you are talking about.


Yes - after the TV repair is done, often I discover the satellite receiver's HDMI output no longer works. I explain to the end user that their receiver needs to be replaced and give them notes to relay to DirecTV so tech support knows the TV's inputs have been properly verified and the receiver itself has been tested and is bad.


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## TomCat

Dr_J said:


> Gosh, this thread scares me. I just switched to HDMI two months ago and to an HR24-500 a week and a half ago. :eek2:


It's kind of all over the place, which is why this post is also kind of all over the place.

But the ground on HDMI is a signal ground, not an AC ground, so the voltages you are talking about referencing to signal ground should be small if everything is working as it should and the polarized AC plugs are not forced in the opposite way (defeat that at your own risk). Any connecting cable could have issues if this were not the case, but HDMI may just also not work because a large enough difference in potential can thwart the handshake, and it probably doesn't have to be all that large.

For instance, one problem that can occur, is if one or both ends of terminal equipment shares its AC ground with its signal ground, which is an unfortunately common way to cut corners in design and production for consumer gear. If both TV and DVR, for instance, are plugged into the same circuit, and one or both don't isolate signal ground from AC ground, everything should still be fine (and that is kind of the answer to why we have polarized plugs: basic idiot-proofing for safety's sake).

But once one piece of gear is plugged into one circuit and the other into another circuit, and then there are power ground problems with the wiring in the house (not that uncommon) so that ground is slightly different between the two, now when you connect signal between them this can cause problems, such as ground loops and sometimes enough difference in potential to skew signal voltages, which can never be good, and can create or aggravate HDMI handshake issues. In some cases, the difference in potential will make the connecting cable act like a low level resistor and it will heat up and melt the cable. In the worst case, the fire department arrives too late.

I have bored folks here with my story of being a cable tech and being roped into doing non-pay disconnects (usually an installer job). But I'll tell it again because it applies here.

I gingerly mentioned to a heavily-tatooed very large gentleman working on his Harley in his front yard that the cable company had asked me to either accept a payment or I would have to cut off his cable. He was very nice about it (whew!) and said he had no money so I should just cut off his cable, which I did. As I was lowering the bucket, I saw him glaring up at me from the bottom of the pole. "Who did you say you were with?"

"Uhh-uh...the cable company" I managed to finally reply. "Then why did you just cut off my power?"

Long story short (too late) and after a lot of convincing, I gave him the bad news that the only thing that could have happened is that his power ground had failed, and he was getting ground only from the cable TV physical cable itself, which is what was keeping his lights on (up until then). We called the power company out and they confirmed it.

I have also replaced cable drops that were melted due to poor power ground, which is also a good reason to always use a ground block, as it unmasks this issue. In one case after replacing the same cable 3 days in a row, I measured about 7 volts DC difference between the cable and the ground block, which was enough to melt the cable enough so that the centerconductor was no longer in the center of the cable, which changed the impedance enough so that it would not pass signal.

So it can get weird out there.

But the audio on HDMI is digital, so a ground loop won't cause a hum directly (although referencing a piece of gear to another ground this way can cause eventual hum in the analog section).

If you can't avoid a difference in ground potential between two circuits and you still have to use them, floating one or the other AC ground may help, or not, but is probably not the safest way to work around the problem of audio hum, and it may still not prevent HDMI handshake problems. The first and best solution is to plug everything into the same circuit using the same polarity (the one-way plugs), assuming it can handle the current. _[edit: I should probably mention that floating an electrical ground by chopping off the third prong or using an adapter is quite a different situation from flipping a power plug around and defeating the polarity, one is only minimally risky, while the other is just asking for trouble]_

In broadcast we regularly float analog audio grounds by not connecting the shield on the receiving end, which prevents ground loops and still keeps the shielding in place. But then 99% of the time we use balanced audio, which is mostly impervious to hum.

Back OT (my apologies for the digression), if you have handshake issues it couldn't hurt to make sure both DVR and TV are plugged into the same circuit which avoids all of these issues.


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## Stevie

Thanks TomCat. Explains a lot that I've been wondering about. Could the reason that I do not see this problem with DISH receivers is that they have 3-prong plugs? Have not noticed the plug types on Moto cable or DirecTV sat receivers.


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## Rich

Stevie said:


> Thanks TomCat. Explains a lot that I've been wondering about. Could the reason that I do not see this problem with DISH receivers is that they have 3-prong plugs? Have not noticed the plug types on Moto cable or DirecTV sat receivers.


From an electrician's POV, I've never quite understood the two prong plugs on the majority (there was at least one D* DVR, might have been an SD box, that did have a three prong plug on it) of D*'s DVRs.

*VOS* has suggested that the ground "floats" in these boxes. I kinda understand that, but still see a danger in electric devices that aren't properly grounded or protected by a GFI. Even "double insulated" tools need to be protected by a GFI. But, I guess there's a reason for using the two prong plugs.

I do know that Sony and Samsung TVs had problems with HDMI and D* HRs. I went thru a nightmare in late '06 because I had two Sony TVs that just wouldn't work with the HDMI feed from the HRs. Switching to Panny plasmas resolved my problems, but I still see the occasional post about that problem and it's usually solved by switching to component wires.

Rich


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## veryoldschool

rich584 said:


> *VOS* has suggested that the ground "floats" in these boxes. I kinda understand that, but still see a danger in electric devices that aren't properly grounded or protected by a GFI. Even "double insulated" tools need to be protected by a GFI. But, I guess there's a reason for using the two prong plugs.
> 
> Rich


"Yes & no". 
The H20 & HR20-100 receivers had a three prong plug, but all other HD receivers/DVRs haven't.
Now when the dish is grounded, the coax grounds these receivers.
There have been a fair amount of posts from those using analog [component] connections and "ground loop" problems with horizontal bars moving up/down on the TV. Changing over to HDMI does stop these, but I doubt it has blocked the ground loop.
I've "toasted" enough data buses in my life to know what a ground loop will do. :eek2:
I've been following the TS's posts and really believe what he's seeing is due to grounding problems.
The TV gets repaired/re-certified, the receiver may have a defective HDMI port, and if the receiver is replaced, without addressing the cause of the problem, then it will return.
A "good ground" may be one of the least understood things.

It's not just DirecTV installers as I had this same problem 20 years ago with my CATV. My old Sony had "hum bars" and it turned out the cable was using my house ground, so their first "fix" was to remove the ground or float my coax. :eek2:
Since they weren't going to fix "their ground" the final fix was to add a DC block on their side of my ground. "Problem solved". 

I have a Sony TV. All my receivers have the 2 prong plugs.
I have a "good ground" on my system.
I use HDMI for everything.
Been this way for almost 5 years, with zero problems.


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> "Yes & no".
> The H20 & HR20-100 receivers had a three prong plug, but all other HD receivers/DVRs haven't.
> Now when the dish is grounded, the coax grounds these receivers.
> There have been a fair amount of posts from those using analog [component] connections and "ground loop" problems with horizontal bars moving up/down on the TV. Changing over to HDMI does stop these, but I doubt it has blocked the ground loop.
> I've "toasted" enough data buses in my life to know what a ground loop will do. :eek2:
> I've been following the TS's posts and really believe what he's seeing is due to grounding problems.
> The TV gets repaired/re-certified, the receiver may have a defective HDMI port, and if the receiver is replaced, without addressing the cause of the problem, then it will return.
> A "good ground" may be one of the least understood things.
> 
> It's not just DirecTV installers as I had this same problem 20 years ago with my CATV. My old Sony had "hum bars" and it turned out the cable was using my house ground, so their first "fix" was to remove the ground or float my coax. :eek2:
> Since they weren't going to fix "their ground" the final fix was to add a DC block on their side of my ground. "Problem solved".
> 
> I have a Sony TV. All my receivers have the 2 prong plugs.
> I have a "good ground" on my system.
> I use HDMI for everything.
> Been this way for almost 5 years, with zero problems.


The only problem I've had was with the two Sony CRTs. They just wouldn't work with HRs using HDMI. Every other HDMI device I tried on them worked, so I can only assume that there was in incompatibility problem with the CRT sets and the HRs. Worked fine using component.

Rich


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## veryoldschool

rich584 said:


> The only problem I've had was with the two Sony CRTs. They just wouldn't work with HRs using HDMI. Every other HDMI device I tried on them worked, so I can only assume that there was in incompatibility problem with the CRT sets and the HRs. Worked fine using component.
> 
> Rich


The HD Sony [CRT RPTV] I got back in '03 didn't have HDMI, but a version of DVI, which I needed a DVI to HDMI cable, when moving to the H/HR20s.
Even back when I had a Sony HD receiver using the DVI to the Sony HD RPTV, "the handshake" would constantly fail ending up with "snow". Sony blamed the TV, but it was their receiver as it never happened with the H/HR20.


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## TBoneit

rich584 said:


> I have no idea when the NEC mandated three prong 120V plugs, but my house is almost 50 years old and it had three prong plugs throughout the house when we moved in. Over the course of the first year we lived here, I changed all the receptacles and switches and everything else I could without ripping down walls. Most of the receptacles were still viable, but the switches were in terrible condition. Some fell apart when I removed the screws holding the wires. Some fell apart as I pulled them from the boxes. But they were all well grounded.
> 
> When we moved into the house it was about 25-2? years old. Gives you an idea how long switches last. Probably about time to do it all again. At least there was no BX in the house, but a lot of the wiring is the cloth covered type. Don't know if that's called Romex or not. As long as it's not brittle, I've left it alone.
> 
> Rich


I believe NYC still requires BX for rodent proofing. It is a bit of a pain to handle. Special tool to cut, Antishort bushings, chance of slicing fingers. Rodent proof, Positive ground. Better resistance to accidental shorts due to hanging pictures, etc.

Could be worse, you could have Knob & Tube wiring and steel water pipes or Lead water pipe into the house from the street.

I have some of that cloth covered wiring in the house too, I consider it a precursor to Romex. I was able to get all kinds of Romex and BX in the past when I drove for a living and one of our customers manufactured wire. They would give away within reason free short lengths that were to short to sell.


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> The HD Sony [CRT RPTV] I got back in '03 didn't have HDMI, but a version of DVI, which I needed a DVI to HDMI cable, when moving to the H/HR20s.
> Even back when I had a Sony HD receiver using the DVI to the Sony HD RPTV, "the handshake" would constantly fail ending up with "snow". Sony blamed the TV, but it was their receiver as it never happened with the H/HR20.


One of mine, a 40" monster that weighed over 500 lbs, had DVI. Had to get a cable for it, too. The other was a 36" HDMI to HDMI. Neither would work with the 20-700s on HDMI. Worked fine with component. The 40" retailed for over $4000. Both worked with upscaling DVD players using HDMI. Just glad I got rid of those monsters.

Rich


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## Rich

TBoneit said:


> I believe NYC still requires BX for rodent proofing. It is a bit of a pain to handle. Special tool to cut, Antishort bushings, chance of slicing fingers. Rodent proof, Positive ground. Better resistance to accidental shorts due to hanging pictures, etc.


We had to use BX in our chemical plant. Because of rats. Nasty stuff to work with, and if you cut the stuff with a hacksaw, you ran the chance of shorting the wiring to the metal shield. We usually just ran conduit rather than take the chance of a short. Romex is so much easier to use.



> Could be worse, you could have Knob & Tube wiring and steel water pipes or Lead water pipe into the house from the street.


I lived in a house that was 147 years old that had knob & tube wiring in the attic. Never had a problem with it.



> I have some of that cloth covered wiring in the house too, I consider it a precursor to Romex.


Don't remember what they called that, but it lasts a long time and as long as it's not brittle it's viable.

Rich


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## Stevie

If an electrical circuit was tested with a receptacle tester (e.g. Ideal# 61-501) and showed "hot/neutral reverse" could this condition have an unwanted grounding effect on the signal coming through HDMI? Either with HD cable or satellite receivers?


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## nelsonrl

Well, two of my three HR24's now have bad HDMI ports. I have 2 running on component video instead of HDMI as a result. Need to call and have them replaced, but trying to wait until I can get the new HMC. Colors start to "run" over each other. Looks like a nice abstract painting. Reset's/reboots do not fix the problem.


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## Rich

Stevie said:


> If an electrical circuit was tested with a receptacle tester (e.g. Ideal# 61-501) and showed "hot/neutral reverse" could this condition have an unwanted grounding effect on the signal coming through HDMI? Either with HD cable or satellite receivers?


It "could".

Rich


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## Rich

nelsonrl said:


> Well, two of my three HR24's now have bad HDMI ports. I have 2 running on component video instead of HDMI as a result. Need to call and have them replaced, but trying to wait until I can get the new HMC. Colors start to "run" over each other. Looks like a nice abstract painting. Reset's/reboots do not fix the problem.


24-xxx?

Rich


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## nelsonrl

Sorry - typing without looking - I have 3 HR20-700s. HDMI appears to bad on two of them. These have current (not the HD GUI update yet) software and as shipped drives.


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## texasbrit

This problem has been around for a while; interestingly Vizio TVs seem to have more issues than most. In the few cases where I've been able to get someone to do real diagnosis, it's turned out to be a grounding issue. One person turned out to have 120v across the HDMI cable, but had somehow avoided getting electrocuted.... The easiest path to ground has turned out to be through the TVs HDMI board, and that's the end of that. But many people do not have any problem at all; different TVs, better grounding??
Others have had close-in lightning strikes, and seem surprised when their surge protector does not solve the problem...


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## nelsonrl

Guess it could be grounding, but this showed up at different times after several years of use.


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## DarkLogix

veryoldschool said:


> Why? :shrug:
> As you know "grounding" can be a can of worms.
> Did some "PHD" lol decide that grounding the dish, which connects to the cased and using a three prong plug would cause issues with two grounds? :shrug:


Its safer to provide a ground path that avoids sensitive parts and make a ground loop than to avoid a loop at the cost of the TV

also based on the number of times I've heard about comcast and D* techs not grounding the grounding block it would be safer to add a 3rd prong and make sure theres a safe path to ground so that nether the reciver nor the TV grounds through the sensitive parts (kinda like why you can have power flow through you must make sure its not hitting your heart)


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## nelsonrl

nelsonrl said:


> Guess it could be grounding, but this showed up at different times after several years of use.


Well, i think my problem is with the HDMI cable. I finally broke down and ran a new cable through the wall and it appears to have cleared up the problem. Since the issue is sporadic, will not know for sure for a while, but when i started trying to watch the game this afternoon, the bleedthrough of collors was horrible. New cable, no problem for now. I have never had a cable go bad, but it was in a bit of a bind so hopefully the problem is solved.


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## dboot9

I just bought a new Vizio TV in December and in July of this year all the HDMI ports on the TV went out. Called Vizio and they came and replaced the motherboard on the TV. Only 1 week after the fix, the first HDMI port went again, now today, the second one went...Called Vizio again and that's when I was told that it might be the Cable Box (Direct TV HD-DVR receiver). Vizio will come out and fix the TV again - but I am reluctant to use the HDMI ports...called Direct TV, but since only 2 HDMI ports went out, they will not send me out a new box...but from what I am reading here, they would just send me out the same model HR24-200....so their fix is to send me out component cables to use instead.

It seems that in a year, Direct TV has not fixed their receiver problems...or it is just affecting Vizio TVs?


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## veryoldschool

dboot9 said:


> I just bought a new Vizio TV in December and in July of this year all the HDMI ports on the TV went out. Called Vizio and they came and replaced the motherboard on the TV. Only 1 week after the fix, the first HDMI port went again, now today, the second one went...Called Vizio again and that's when I was told that it might be the Cable Box (Direct TV HD-DVR receiver). Vizio will come out and fix the TV again - but I am reluctant to use the HDMI ports...called Direct TV, but since only 2 HDMI ports went out, they will not send me out a new box...but from what I am reading here, they would just send me out the same model HR24-200....so their fix is to send me out component cables to use instead.
> 
> It seems that in a year, Direct TV has not fixed their receiver problems...or it is just affecting Vizio TVs?


I think this problem is a grounding problem. When either your TV or the receiver isn't grounded [well], it will use the HDMI cable as a ground.


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## lugnutathome

I'm uncertain of the specific TV you have but I have a 22in Vizio Razor I purchased for use in the RV. Also grabbed a Vizio BluRay player to go with it. Never could get the HDMI ports between the two devices to work properly and returned the player for another (same model, same issues) took the player back, set the TV up as a computer monitor on VGA and ran occasional use from a Direct TV receiver via HDMI with no issues.

I say this as in my limited experience the Vizio design and QC might not be quite everything it could be. I've LOTS of DirectTV receivers HDMI connected to many brands of TV (Sharp,Sony,Toshiba,Samsung,Vizio, Some brand X) and never had issues.

Does your Vizio have some form of HDMI control function that is turned ON by default? If so make sure that is OFF.

Don "I hate it when my things become smoking holes" Bolton



dboot9 said:


> I just bought a new Vizio TV in December and in July of this year all the HDMI ports on the TV went out. Called Vizio and they came and replaced the motherboard on the TV. Only 1 week after the fix, the first HDMI port went again, now today, the second one went...Called Vizio again and that's when I was told that it might be the Cable Box (Direct TV HD-DVR receiver). Vizio will come out and fix the TV again - but I am reluctant to use the HDMI ports...called Direct TV, but since only 2 HDMI ports went out, they will not send me out a new box...but from what I am reading here, they would just send me out the same model HR24-200....so their fix is to send me out component cables to use instead.
> 
> It seems that in a year, Direct TV has not fixed their receiver problems...or it is just affecting Vizio TVs?


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## jagrim

"dboot9" said:


> I just bought a new Vizio TV in December and in July of this year all the HDMI ports on the TV went out. Called Vizio and they came and replaced the motherboard on the TV. Only 1 week after the fix, the first HDMI port went again, now today, the second one went...Called Vizio again and that's when I was told that it might be the Cable Box (Direct TV HD-DVR receiver). Vizio will come out and fix the TV again - but I am reluctant to use the HDMI ports...called Direct TV, but since only 2 HDMI ports went out, they will not send me out a new box...but from what I am reading here, they would just send me out the same model HR24-200....so their fix is to send me out component cables to use instead.
> 
> It seems that in a year, Direct TV has not fixed their receiver problems...or it is just affecting Vizio TVs?


I've got (2) Vizio's hooked p by HDMI; one to an HR24-500 (37") and the other to a HR22-100 (32"). Have never had a problem with either.


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## dboot9

veryoldschool said:


> I think this problem is a grounding problem. When either your TV or the receiver isn't grounded [well], it will use the HDMI cable as a ground.


Thanks for the response! How would you go about fixing that? Do I have to hire an electrician?


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## dboot9

lugnutathome said:


> I'm uncertain of the specific TV you have but I have a 22in Vizio Razor I purchased for use in the RV. Also grabbed a Vizio BluRay player to go with it. Never could get the HDMI ports between the two devices to work properly and returned the player for another (same model, same issues) took the player back, set the TV up as a computer monitor on VGA and ran occasional use from a Direct TV receiver via HDMI with no issues.
> 
> I say this as in my limited experience the Vizio design and QC might not be quite everything it could be. I've LOTS of DirectTV receivers HDMI connected to many brands of TV (Sharp,Sony,Toshiba,Samsung,Vizio, Some brand X) and never had issues.
> 
> Does your Vizio have some form of HDMI control function that is turned ON by default? If so make sure that is OFF.
> 
> Don "I hate it when my things become smoking holes" Bolton


Thanks for the response! I will check to see if there is a default HDMI control function on this TV..The TV is a 42" LCD LED HDTV.


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## dboot9

jagrim said:


> I've got (2) Vizio's hooked p by HDMI; one to an HR24-500 (37") and the other to a HR22-100 (32"). Have never had a problem with either.


Thanks for the response! Looks like you got two good receivers  From the original post - it was these receivers that were causing the problems (HR24-200, HR24-100, R22-200) and I have the first one...


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## texasbrit

dboot9 said:


> I just bought a new Vizio TV in December and in July of this year all the HDMI ports on the TV went out. Called Vizio and they came and replaced the motherboard on the TV. Only 1 week after the fix, the first HDMI port went again, now today, the second one went...Called Vizio again and that's when I was told that it might be the Cable Box (Direct TV HD-DVR receiver). Vizio will come out and fix the TV again - but I am reluctant to use the HDMI ports...called Direct TV, but since only 2 HDMI ports went out, they will not send me out a new box...but from what I am reading here, they would just send me out the same model HR24-200....so their fix is to send me out component cables to use instead.
> 
> It seems that in a year, Direct TV has not fixed their receiver problems...or it is just affecting Vizio TVs?


As VOS says, you almost certainly have a grounding problem. There's nothing wrong with your DirecTV boxes.


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## veryoldschool

dboot9 said:


> Thanks for the response! How would you go about fixing that? Do I have to hire an electrician?


I guess if you have to ask, then talking to an electrician might be a good idea.
I do this type of work myself, but I also know which wires will kill me, and keep away from them. :eek2:


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> I guess if you have to ask, then talking to an electrician might be a good idea.
> I do this type of work myself, but I also know which wires will kill me, and keep away from them. :eek2:


Royal PITA, grounding is. To do it properly he'd have to drive two ground rods six feet apart, bond them and use that as the ground. If he can't use the existing grounds. I've been after D* to fix/actually install a ground for a few years and nothing has come of it. I have been "assured" that if something happens all my equipment will be replaced at no charge. Meanwhile, the code officials have seen the shabby attempt to ground the system that some installer tried a few years ago and they are not happy.

Reminds me that I've gotta call the PP and get grounded. More stress.... :lol:

Rich


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## veryoldschool

Rich said:


> Royal PITA, grounding is. To do it properly he'd have to drive two ground rods six feet apart, bond them and use that as the ground. If he can't use the existing grounds. I've been after D* to fix/actually install a ground for a few years and nothing has come of it. I have been "assured" that if something happens all my equipment will be replaced at no charge. Meanwhile, the code officials have seen the shabby attempt to ground the system that some installer tried a few years ago and they are not happy.
> 
> Reminds me that I've gotta call the PP and get grounded. More stress.... :lol:
> 
> Rich


"I think" more times than not, it's that the DirecTV receiver is grounded and the TV isn't.


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## Rich

veryoldschool said:


> "I think" more times than not, it's that the DirecTV receiver is grounded and the TV isn't.


Must be that. My TV is well grounded and my receivers are "floating". Still, when the code officials tell you to do something...

Rich


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## Surveyor40

Go to your local hardware store and purchase an outlet tester. At least you'll know if the outlet is wired correctly or not. Then you can decide how to proceed. Either way you'll need to work with a good electrician to solve this issue. Most electricians do not ground the outlet, they only use the hot and neutral. If you have romex this could be a bigger problem as the plastic sleeve does not act as a ground back to the panel.


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## Rich

Surveyor40 said:


> Go to your local hardware store and purchase an outlet tester. At least you'll know if the outlet is wired correctly or not. Then you can decide how to proceed. Either way you'll need to work with a good electrician to solve this issue. Most electricians do not ground the outlet, they only use the hot and neutral. If you have romex this could be a bigger problem as the plastic sleeve does not act as a ground back to the panel.


Romex comes with a ground wire inside. Most electricians worthy of the name will always make a ground connection. Where did you get that idea from?

Rich


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## dboot9

Surveyor40 said:


> Go to your local hardware store and purchase an outlet tester. At least you'll know if the outlet is wired correctly or not. Then you can decide how to proceed. Either way you'll need to work with a good electrician to solve this issue. Most electricians do not ground the outlet, they only use the hot and neutral. If you have romex this could be a bigger problem as the plastic sleeve does not act as a ground back to the panel.


Thanks! I will check that out!


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## Steven Accuosti

I use Directv and the newer HR54-700. I have had no problems with the HDMI ports on the TV. However I am on my third HR54. The HDMI ports failed around 1 year. The first at about 9 months and the second at 14 months. The ATT tech serviceman claims that HDMI port failure on the ATT dvrs is quite common. The serviceman also told us he personally has had 3 HDMI ports fail. He told us to use the component outputs on the receiver. I demanded a new receiver which he provided and then had to fight with ATT over the $99 service charge.


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## krel

Steven Accuosti said:


> I use Directv and the newer HR54-700. I have had no problems with the HDMI ports on the TV. However I am on my third HR54. The HDMI ports failed around 1 year. The first at about 9 months and the second at 14 months. The ATT tech serviceman claims that HDMI port failure on the ATT dvrs is quite common. The serviceman also told us he personally has had 3 HDMI ports fail. He told us to use the component outputs on the receiver. I demanded a new receiver which he provided and then had to fight with ATT over the $99 service charge.


file an FCC report that will wake em up!!!. i would invest in the insurance for 8.99 a month as well


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## Steven Accuosti

dboot9 said:


> Thanks! I will check that out!


The HR54s run on a transformer the plug on the transformer is bidirectional meaning the prongs are both the same size, even if wired backwards (which they are not) it should not effect the receiver in any way what so ever.


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## Steven Accuosti

Rich said:


> Romex comes with a ground wire inside. Most electricians worthy of the name will always make a ground connection. Where did you get that idea from?
> 
> Rich


I agree, anyone with any electrical experience at all will always attach the ground wire.


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## harsh

Steven Accuosti said:


> The HR54s run on a transformer the plug on the transformer is bidirectional meaning the prongs are both the same size, even if wired backwards (which they are not) it should not effect the receiver in any way what so ever.


I think you'll find that the power supply for the HR54 is a switching power supply and as such, it doesn't use a power transformer in the conventional sense.

AC doesn't have a polarity and the ground lug is only for the brick internals.


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## harsh

Steven Accuosti said:


> I agree, anyone with any electrical experience at all will always attach the ground wire.


The reality is perhaps different from what you might guess. We hear all the time about dishes that aren't bonded to earth.


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## P Smith

Steven Accuosti said:


> The HR54s run on a transformer the plug on


nope, check its schematics
it's two stage conversion AC-AC and making a few voltage rails


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