# HS17-100



## slice1900

This was mentioned on another forum as coming out (along with a change to no longer require high end packages for 4K)

I googled it and the only thing I found was an AT&T PDF from April regarding California regulatory stuff that lists as "Genie Server - Black Plastic Cover and Base". Perhaps this is the new 4K Genie?

If Directv is changing how they are offering 4K, and not requiring the top level packages, I have to think they have new hardware ready right?


----------



## tylorert

slice1900 said:


> This was mentioned on another forum as coming out (along with a change to no longer require high end packages for 4K)
> 
> I googled it and the only thing I found was an AT&T PDF from April regarding California regulatory stuff that lists as "Genie Server - Black Plastic Cover and Base". Perhaps this is the new 4K Genie?
> 
> If Directv is changing how they are offering 4K, and not requiring the top level packages, I have to think they have new hardware ready right?


Sounds like a cover of some sort, Perhaps an External device to handle 4K? (Rendering) Maby a genie go alternative since they killed them. Or a box for DirectvNOW. In the past years, I think that the servers for the Genie Go 1(&2) got wiped then reused for the DirectvNOW service. Too early to figure out what it is and what it does, especially if their is only one thing on google about it. I would check the Patents for AT&T and D* about it.


----------



## jimmie57

tylorert said:


> Sounds like a cover of some sort, Perhaps an External device to handle 4K? (Rendering) Maby a genie go alternative since they killed them. Or a box for DirectvNOW. In the past years, I think that the servers for the Genie Go 1(&2) got wiped then reused for the DirectvNOW service. Too early to figure out what it is and what it does, especially if their is only one thing on google about it. I would check the Patents for AT&T and D* about it.


There is *no box required* for the new DirecTV Now service.


----------



## tylorert

jimmie57 said:


> There is *no box required* for the new DirecTV Now service.


Correct, how ever they might be making one for people that dont have one. (A streaming Device) Or a DVR for it.


----------



## inkahauts

tylorert said:


> Sounds like a cover of some sort, Perhaps an External device to handle 4K? (Rendering) Maby a genie go alternative since they killed them. Or a box for DirectvNOW. In the past years, I think that the servers for the Genie Go 1(&2) got wiped then reused for the DirectvNOW service. Too early to figure out what it is and what it does, especially if their is only one thing on google about it. I would check the Patents for AT&T and D* about it.


I can't see Directv now and the servers for genie gos having anything to do with each other. There's just no way when you stop and think about it. Why would you think that?


----------



## slice1900

tylorert said:



> Sounds like a cover of some sort, Perhaps an External device to handle 4K? (Rendering) Maby a genie go alternative since they killed them. Or a box for DirectvNOW. In the past years, I think that the servers for the Genie Go 1(&2) got wiped then reused for the DirectvNOW service. Too early to figure out what it is and what it does, especially if their is only one thing on google about it. I would check the Patents for AT&T and D* about it.


Patents are useless for this, because the patent office is so behind things are published until 2-3 years after initial filing - and that's if it isn't updated. Besides there isn't anything for them to patent outside the GUI. They aren't making the hardware, and any 'inventions' are in the chips they're buying from companies like Broadcom or Maxlinear.

Usually you can find a bit of info on the FCC site assuming it has wireless built in. I can't seem to find my bookmark for that but I'll probably check later when I have time.


----------



## jimmie57

tylorert said:


> Correct, how ever they might be making one for people that dont have one. (A streaming Device) Or a DVR for it.


The letters are kinda telling to me.
HS ( Home Server ).


----------



## jimmie57

tylorert said:


> Correct, how ever they might be making one for people that dont have one. (A streaming Device) Or a DVR for it.


Just for the heck of it I loaded the website onto my laptop.
Then, just as a test, I went to the website again with my Wi-Fi TV. Came right up and was ready for me to sign up for my FREE trial.
If you can get on the web you can use the service. That is one reason why they are developing the service. This cuts out the production of a lot of hardware and the need for Installers and repair calls.

It blows my mind why people going to things like this are called cord cutters. If you don't have internet you can't get any of the alternative services so the cord is not cut.


----------



## P Smith

jimmie57 said:


> It blows my mind why people going to things like this are called cord cutters.


it will really blow when you'll know the "cord cutters" using OTA [DVRs, tuners, PC cards, etc]


----------



## slice1900

C'mon, "cord cutting" is a euphemism for dumping a traditional pay TV company - including satellite which doesn't have a cord connecting you to Dish or Directv. Yeah, you still need a cord for internet, but you could always get your internet wirelessly then look ma, no cord! Otherwise the only "true" cord cutters use wireless internet and watch on an iPad running on battery...


----------



## CraigerM

I found this at the FCC's web site:

FCC ID O6ZHS17 Digital Satellite Receiver(Headless DVR Server) by Humax Co., Ltd.


----------



## tylorert

Look, Interesting


----------



## P Smith

so, it's H[eadless]S[erver]-17
interesting if it has 7 tuners


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> so, it's H[eadless]S[erver]-17
> interesting if it has 7 tuners


Or 17 (one better than the Hopper 3).

Finally, some meat for the speculation.


----------



## CraigerM

I guess its based on this system at Humax's site?

Home Gateway | HUMAX-Americas


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> C'mon, "cord cutting" is a euphemism for dumping a traditional pay TV company - including satellite which doesn't have a cord connecting you to Dish or Directv. Yeah, you still need a cord for internet, but you could always get your internet wirelessly then look ma, no cord! Otherwise the only "true" cord cutters use wireless internet and watch on an iPad running on battery...


Cord cutting in the true sense is usually pretty stupid. These people always end up paying a lot more for all the various streaming services they need and they lose a ton of functionality and don't have the "all in one experience".


----------



## SledgeHammer

If it's really headless, how do they expect us single TV people to use it? If they are expecting me to pay a double outlet fee / use 2 boxes (one of which doesn't really work well) just to watch TV, I'll be on the next thing smoking over to Dish.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I guess its based on this system at Humax's site?
> 
> Home Gateway | HUMAX-Americas


Doubtful. That's a cable product for one thing, and Directv tells OEMs what they want them to build, they don't choose a product off their web sites and slap a label on it. If they did they would end up with differnt products from Humax than from Technicolor...


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> If it's really headless, how do they expect us single TV people to use it? If they are expecting me to pay a double outlet fee / use 2 boxes (one of which doesn't really work well) just to watch TV, I'll be on the next thing smoking over to Dish.


As I've said for ages, I'm willing to bet that the cost is covered under the "advanced receiver fee" or whatever they choose to call it. Then you pay per TV for clients. If you need/want more than one HS17 you probably pay extra monthly fees.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> As I've said for ages, I'm willing to bet that the cost is covered under the "advanced receiver fee" or whatever they choose to call it. Then you pay per TV for clients. If you need/want more than one HS17 you probably pay extra monthly fees.


I'm on the 10/10/3 pay structure and have the /3 portion off since it serves me no purpose (on a HR24 now). Right now, if I go HR54, they'll tack on the /3, but if I want 4K, they'll double charge my outlet.

If the HS17 has no output, they BETTER not charge an outlet fee for it.

And if they aren't going to charge an outlet fee for it, what's the point of making it headless?

1) how do you troubleshoot anything on the server if it doesn't output anything?
2) like it really costs that much to add a HDMI output to it?


----------



## slice1900

A few interesting things I noted....

Apparently it supports Zigbee, is that what Directv uses for their RF remotes? I wonder why a headless server would need to support a remote at all? I suppose maybe for initial setup / troubleshooting it might support connecting to a TV - i.e. just shows setup menu / diag info, but won't display programming. If not for the remote I have no idea why it would support Zigbee.

The part number for the hard drive indicates a 2.5" 2 TB drive.

There is reference to a "Directv SIM". Which is probably why the latest access cards have a perforated slot for you to remove the chip in a SIM card sized format.

LAN is 2.4 & 5 GHz, and judging by all the combinations and width, plus the mention of beamforming it is probably 802.11ac.

As for the '17', I think it is safe to say it does not have *17* tuners! I'll bet it supports 7, but actually has 16 tuners internally (one reserved for the network tuner, and using anywhere from 7 to 14 depending how many 4K channels on bonded transponders are being tuned. But no way to tell for sure, the number 17 may have nothing to do with the number of tuners, just like it doesn't on any of Directv's other DVRs.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> I'm on the 10/10/3 pay structure and have the /3 portion off since it serves me no purpose (on a HR24 now). Right now, if I go HR54, they'll tack on the /3, but if I want 4K, they'll double charge my outlet.
> 
> If the HS17 has no output, they BETTER not charge an outlet fee for it.
> 
> And if they aren't going to charge an outlet fee for it, what's the point of making it headless?
> 
> 1) how do you troubleshoot anything on the server if it doesn't output anything?
> 2) like it really costs that much to add a HDMI output to it?


Making it headless simplifies things. Less testing in the server if it doesn't output video (at least not intended for TV watching, it may still do so for troubleshooting) and also gives the customer more flexibility about where to locate it since it doesn't have to be near a TV (though obviously has to be in a climate controlled space, not an attic or crawlspace)

I don't think it is about saving money, and I wouldn't be surprised if it does have an HDMI 1.4 output for troubleshooting, or maybe a composite output. It just won't display anything but setup menu type stuff. It would save a little on licensing not having to support HDCP, but I think the simplified test matrix is probably the main goal.


----------



## CraigerM

Could you connect the headless server to a TV using Ethernet if you wanted the TV to be client?


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> Could you connect the headless server to a TV using Ethernet if you wanted the TV to be client?


Maybe, depends on whether Directv wants to support it. From the looks of things it does have an ethernet port, but the intention might be that this is intended to connect to your router, not distribute to your TVs and clients. Just have to wait and see when it is officially available, and what rules installers like peds48 say Directv is imposing on them.


----------



## James Long

I suspect TVs with built in clients will be supported ... which would require some network connection. But the Ethernet needs to be there for the "phone home" functions (and other Internet connected work).


----------



## cypherx

Our cable company has a simular setup with an Arris Moxi 6 tuner whole home DVR. The main box is headless and contains the cable card and 6 tuners, an 8X4 modem, integrated wireless router, 4 ethernet port switch and two line telephone (packetcable eMTA) ports. It does all the tuning and uses MoCA to distribute video back and forth to smaller "Media Players". There have been some bugs and complaints with the system so they moved the "server" portion to the latest DCX-3600m which has HDMI and other video outputs, but it still is the DVR and command center (ie, the media players are worthless without this box). The original release some people were putting both the server and the first media player at the main TV. Some other installs they put the server in place of the home's cable modem. What's nice with the media players is they have a LED display with the time on the front. Boy I miss that.

If your going to have a set top box at a TV anyway, I don't see a huge demand to split the server from the client. Its just one extra power outlet you have to find room for. I guess all situations vary... those with 4k needs can't use any existing Genie for their main TV anyway, so this device can fill those needs along with C61k's.


----------



## tylorert

James Long said:


> I suspect TVs with built in clients will be supported ... which would require some network connection. But the Ethernet needs to be there for the "phone home" functions (and other Internet connected work).





slice1900 said:


> Maybe, depends on whether Directv wants to support it. From the looks of things it does have an ethernet port, but the intention might be that this is intended to connect to your router, not distribute to your TVs and clients. Just have to wait and see when it is officially available, and what rules installers like peds48 say Directv is imposing on them.


I Susspect it to be a nomad or a replacement to the Genie GO 1&2


----------



## SledgeHammer

cypherx said:


> There have been some bugs and complaints with the system so they moved the "server" portion to the latest DCX-3600m which has HDMI and other video outputs, but it still is the DVR and command center (ie, the media players are worthless without this box).
> 
> If your going to have a set top box at a TV anyway, I don't see a huge demand to split the server from the client. Its just one extra power outlet you have to find room for.


This exactly. What's the point of a headless unit? It may be fine for somebody with a dedicated A/V closet or plenty of room... my entertainment center is already a tight fit. I certainly don't want to add another box. At some TV you are going to have both boxes with a headless unit. Three when you throw in the AM21! grrrr....


----------



## tylorert

SledgeHammer said:


> This exactly. What's the point of a headless unit? It may be fine for somebody with a dedicated A/V closet or plenty of room... my entertainment center is already a tight fit. I certainly don't want to add another box. At some TV you are going to have both boxes with a headless unit. Three when you throw in the AM21! grrrr....


I am starting to think that this is targeted twords commercial services. IE Hostels and Hotels. Or larger houses that requires a server for space on one home.


----------



## slice1900

tylorert said:


> I Susspect it to be a nomad or a replacement to the Genie GO 1&2


I guarantee it isn't. Why the heck would they create a standalone box for a function like this? It should have been built into their DVRs years ago, but they go so cheap on the specs they didn't have the option until the Genie.


----------



## CraigerM

Didn't one person in here said the next server would have the wireless video bridge built in? However not sure if that would be true. I wonder that headless server would look something like the wireless video bridge with a SATA hard drive built in?


----------



## tylorert

Good points. I would like to see who was right and wrong and how this turnes out


----------



## tylorert

tylorert said:


> Look, Interesting


Supposed to be releced in 3 months. CANT WAIT!


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> Supposed to be releced in 3 months. CANT WAIT!


I saw that I wonder when they will post those test photo? One thing I forgot will this be that rumored SatelliteTV/IPTV hybrid server that was mentioned?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> I saw that I wonder when they will post those test photo? One thing I forgot will this be that rumored SatelliteTV/IPTV hybrid server that was mentioned?


Directv NOW?


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> Directv NOW?


Sorry I meant UVerseTV. Unless DTV NOW replaces UVerseTV?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Sorry I meant UVerseTV. Unless DTV NOW replaces UVerseTV?


Well considering i have U-Verse (IT SUCKS) we have not received any offeres. They are still installing the same DVRs as they did 6 years ago. (500GB DRIVES!)


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> Well considering i have U-Verse (IT SUCKS) we have not received any offeres. They are still installing the same DVRs as they did 6 years ago. (500GB DRIVES!)


What happens when all those UVerseTV boxes can't be refurbished anymore? Or they just stop refurbishing them period? Would they give them this new headless server as a replacement? Or tell them to sign up to DTV, DTV NOW or go with another provider?


----------



## cypherx

Does the uverse box do hevc decoding? 4K? Does it have a clock on the front?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> What happens when all those UVerseTV boxes can't be refurbished anymore? Or they just stop refurbishing them period? Would they give them this new headless server as a replacement? Or tell them to sign up to DTV, DTV NOW or go with another provider?


They only replace the drives to refurbish them. The headless server apply to DTV not U-Verse.


----------



## tylorert

cypherx said:


> Does the uverse box do hevc decoding? 4K? Does it have a clock on the front?


NO, NO ,And NO! Heres what I have (Latest)


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> What happens when all those UVerseTV boxes can't be refurbished anymore? Or they just stop refurbishing them period? Would they give them this new headless server as a replacement? Or tell them to sign up to DTV, DTV NOW or go with another provider?


We added another recever last year. they have old one in stock and are still making them


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> We added another recever last year. they have old one in stock and are still making them


What about that news awhile ago that AT&T has stopped ordering UVerseTV boxes?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> What about that news awhile ago that AT&T has stopped ordering UVerseTV boxes?


Well....... You have me there. I guess you keep your boxes as long as you can till it breaks. Just be nice to it I guess. You might be forced into DirecTV for no extra charge. OR Get directv for the same price.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tylorert said:


> I am starting to think that this is targeted twords commercial services. IE Hostels and Hotels. Or larger houses that requires a server for space on one home.


I dunno... rumors have gone around for years that the HR24 was the last standalone DVR .


----------



## tylorert

SledgeHammer said:


> I dunno... rumors have gone around for years that the HR24 was the last standalone DVR .


Unfortunately YES. I love my ("FAT") (Dont tell it I said that) HR24.


----------



## carl6

SledgeHammer said:


> If it's really headless, how do they expect us single TV people to use it? If they are expecting me to pay a double outlet fee / use 2 boxes (one of which doesn't really work well) just to watch TV, I'll be on the next thing smoking over to Dish.


I would guess it is similar to the current Genie models in that it uses clients and simply does not directly serve a television. Pure speculation, but that would make some sense. As to pricing, DirecTV currently charges a recurring monthly fee per tv location, whether it is a directly connected receiver or DVR, or a client. I have no idea what pricing structure they might use for a so-called "headless" server. Maybe no charge for the server itself and the normal monthly charge per client? Or maybe try to squeeze that extra few bucks out of us by charging a fee for the server also? Dunno.


----------



## tylorert

carl6 said:


> I would guess it is similar to the current Genie models in that it uses clients and simply does not directly serve a television. Pure speculation, but that would make some sense. As to pricing, DirecTV currently charges a recurring monthly fee per tv location, whether it is a directly connected receiver or DVR, or a client. I have no idea what pricing structure they might use for a so-called "headless" server. Maybe no charge for the server itself and the normal monthly charge per client? Or maybe try to squeeze that extra few bucks out of us by charging a fee for the server also? Dunno.


Might be "SUPER Advanced Receiver Fee $20" o_0


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> Didn't one person in here said the next server would have the wireless video bridge built in? However not sure if that would be true. I wonder that headless server would look something like the wireless video bridge with a SATA hard drive built in?


It doesn't make sense to have the WVB separate. This has 2.4/5.8 GHz wireless that looks to be 802.11ac from what I can tell from the test documents. There's no way to tell if that's client side only or if it can act as an AP.


----------



## CraigerM

carl6 said:


> I would guess it is similar to the current Genie models in that it uses clients and simply does not directly serve a television. Pure speculation, but that would make some sense. As to pricing, DirecTV currently charges a recurring monthly fee per tv location, whether it is a directly connected receiver or DVR, or a client. I have no idea what pricing structure they might use for a so-called "headless" server. Maybe no charge for the server itself and the normal monthly charge per client? Or maybe try to squeeze that extra few bucks out of us by charging a fee for the server also? Dunno.


I forgot at another forum they were saying they have seen photos of it and it looks something like this:

5268AC xDSL Voice Gateway | ARRIS

However if it is just going to be another Genie Server that looks like the HR-44/54 and it would be headless, I hope the improve the performance of the Genie Mini's. I read threads that say the Mini's are slow. This is why I think that maybe it could look like that Humax one that I posted a link to because it said it has a DOCSIS cable modem in it. Maybe that is used just to have better and faster connectivity to the Mini's? Also what about energy savings having the server still be headed?


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> It doesn't make sense to have the WVB separate. This has 2.4/5.8 GHz wireless that looks to be 802.11ac from what I can tell from the test documents. There's no way to tell if that's client side only or if it can act as an AP.


Actually it makes total sense to have the wireless video bridge separate. Where the server is located is not always the best location for the bridge specially if this is a headless unit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## west99999

Ive heard through the grapevine they are working on Genie that runs on fiber and will be for fiber markets only. It will basically be your genie/modem/router all in one.


----------



## cypherx

It would be nice if the clients could be powered by a simple 5 VDC. Many TV's have USB ports, sometimes for connectivity options, but sometimes for solely firmware updates. Regardless a usb port is powered and it would allow the client to be powered with the TV. I have my Chromecast powered in this manor (TV's USB port).


----------



## slice1900

cypherx said:


> It would be nice if the clients could be powered by a simple 5 VDC. Many TV's have USB ports, sometimes for connectivity options, but sometimes for solely firmware updates. Regardless a usb port is powered and it would allow the client to be powered with the TV. I have my Chromecast powered in this manor (TV's USB port).


Personally I would like to see an option for powering the clients over coax, it would make life easier for commercial installs once server/client setups are supported there. It wouldn't have to be required, but the option would be nice to have. Obviously it would require a different splitter than the standard green label one that was designed to pass power on all ports.

I doubt they'll do it if for no other reason than they never do anything that makes stuff cost a few cents more than it would cost, but it sure would be nice.


----------



## CraigerM

west99999 said:


> Ive heard through the grapevine they are working on Genie that runs on fiber and will be for fiber markets only. It will basically be your genie/modem/router all in one.


So their will be two versions of the Genie server? One for the fiber markets and one for the non-fiber markets? If so will the one for the fiber markets just be Ethernet IP only and not have a coax input? Thanks.


----------



## tylorert

I like the 5v idea


----------



## James Long

slice1900 said:


> Personally I would like to see an option for powering the clients over coax, it would make life easier for commercial installs once server/client setups are supported there. It wouldn't have to be required, but the option would be nice to have. Obviously it would require a different splitter than the standard green label one that was designed to pass power on all ports.
> 
> I doubt they'll do it if for no other reason than they never do anything that makes stuff cost a few cents more than it would cost, but it sure would be nice.


It makes too much sense for it to be done.


----------



## CraigerM

What about the client box being hooked to the headless server using Ethernet?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> What about the client box being hooked to the headless server using Ethernet?


Speaking of ethernet, I think it would be amazing if the clients could be powered over ethernet from a DIRECTV CLIENT HUB thing, Or powered from coax


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> Speaking of ethernet, I think it would be amazing if the clients could be powered over ethernet from a DIRECTV CLIENT HUB thing, Or powered from coax


That's one reason I could see them going headless. If they make it so it could fit in a structured wiring cabinet. Then if the rooms in the home have both coax and Ethernet outlets it would make for an easy install. Also if a person didn't like having set-top box clutter they could just have the smart TV hooked up to an Ethernet cable. However I think some have said that TV providers don't like connecting to a homes structured wiring system because if the equipment goes down you wouldn't be able to tell if its the TV providers equipment fault or the structured wirings fault. However wouldn't TV technicians be trained for that type of problem? Also don't new homes built with structured wiring design it for being to TV providers equipment?


----------



## slice1900

tylorert said:


> Speaking of ethernet, I think it would be amazing if the clients could be powered over ethernet from a DIRECTV CLIENT HUB thing, Or powered from coax


There's already a standard for power over ethernet, Directv would just need to support it in their ethernet port. It would be up to the customer to provide the PoE switch.

However, for reasons already outlined, I think Directv will continue to be reluctant to support using a customer's network. Perhaps they'd support PoE for clients in a commercial environment, but not in a home. Most people use their wifi router as a switch since they have only a few wired devices, and AFAIK no consumer wifi routers support PoE.


----------



## tylorert

slice1900 said:


> There's already a standard for power over ethernet, Directv would just need to support it in their ethernet port. It would be up to the customer to provide the PoE switch.
> 
> However, for reasons already outlined, I think Directv will continue to be reluctant to support using a customer's network. Perhaps they'd support PoE for clients in a commercial environment, but not in a home. Most people use their wifi router as a switch since they have only a few wired devices, and AFAIK no consumer wifi routers support PoE.


Am well aware of the situation


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> There's already a standard for power over ethernet, Directv would just need to support it in their ethernet port. It would be up to the customer to provide the PoE switch.
> 
> However, for reasons already outlined, I think Directv will continue to be reluctant to support using a customer's network. Perhaps they'd support PoE for clients in a commercial environment, but not in a home. Most people use their wifi router as a switch since they have only a few wired devices, and AFAIK no consumer wifi routers support PoE.


What if DTV combines their Server with a WIFI DSL Modem and Router into an all in one unit?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> What if DTV combines their Server with a WIFI DSL Modem and Router into an all in one unit?


And AT&T U-Verse is born


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> And AT&T U-Verse is born :rollyeyes


I think it wouldn't be UVerseTV. It would be DTV using something like that and you would use that for just DTV connecting the dish to that or it would be a dual purpose unit and have DTV over the dish and have DTV over IPTV. Also what if they did the next guide to support structured wiring? Or maybe AT&T would move to this:

Home | SAT IP


----------



## west99999

CraigerM said:


> So their will be two versions of the Genie server? One for the fiber markets and one for the non-fiber markets? If so will the one for the fiber markets just be Ethernet IP only and not have a coax input? Thanks.


Haven't heard anymore than what I stated.


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> What about the client box being hooked to the headless server using Ethernet?


Possible, but one has to have a good network to make that happen. Gig ethernet would be a good idea.

One positive of MoCA is that it is a dedicated network that does not have to compete with other household traffic or run through consumer grade switches and hubs.


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> I think it wouldn't be UVerseTV. It would be DTV using something like that and you would use that for just DTV connecting the dish to that or it would be a dual purpose unit and have DTV over the dish and have DTV over IPTV. Also what if they did the next guide to support structured wiring? Or maybe AT&T would move to this:
> 
> Home | SAT IP


Great idea


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> Possible, but one has to have a good network to make that happen. Gig ethernet would be a good idea.
> 
> One positive of MoCA is that it is a dedicated network that does not have to compete with other household traffic or run through consumer grade switches and hubs.


Good point about Moca and household traffic! I just thought that Ethernet was faster and better than Moca. However, I forgot about if the next server and clients would have this:

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA2/index.htm


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> Great idea


Thanks.


----------



## cypherx

But then what if your not in an AT&T area? Nothing changes right? I would see no benefit from a xDSL modem built into a Genie server. Verizon 3mbps DSL is an option for $40 a month. Sorry no way... I'll keep my cable (currently 40/4mbps, upgradeable to 200/10).


----------



## slice1900

cypherx said:


> But then what if your not in an AT&T area? Nothing changes right? I would see no benefit from a xDSL modem built into a Genie server. Verizon 3mbps DSL is an option for $40 a month. Sorry no way... I'll keep my cable (currently 40/4mbps, upgradeable to 200/10).


Adding the DSL modem would add a bit of cost that isn't recovered for most customers, but I guess if AT&T figures there is value in making it simple for their Uverse customers by minimizing the number of boxes they may eat that additional cost. Maybe they will think it reduces support costs because then there is no dependency on the customer's home network when you use it as a DSL modem.

Theoretically it would work on anyone's DSL (maybe not VDSL2 like mine if their modem doesn't support that) but most customers use an ISP provided modem.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> Adding the DSL modem would add a bit of cost that isn't recovered for most customers, but I guess if AT&T figures there is value in making it simple for their Uverse customers by minimizing the number of boxes they may eat that additional cost. Maybe they will think it reduces support costs because then there is no dependency on the customer's home network when you use it as a DSL modem.
> 
> Theoretically it would work on anyone's DSL (maybe not VDSL2 like mine if their modem doesn't support that) but most customers use an ISP provided modem.


Although I like the idea of a combined Server/DSL Modem their could be some problems I could see combining them. What if you just wanted DTV and the cable companies Internet? Would the cable modem be able to work with that? The other reason for keeping it separate would be then you could just install it next to a coax outlet and not need a phone or Ethernet outlet next to it because you could then use the headless gateway's WIFI. Also what if a combined unit breaks then you couldn't watch TV or use the Internet. However, having a combined unit would make it easier to switch over to IPTV for bad weather backup, if they also stop making the UVerseTV modems in addition to the UVerseTV boxes.


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Although I like the idea of a combined Server/DSL Modem their could be some problems I could see combining them. What if you just wanted DTV and the cable companies Internet? Would the cable modem be able to work with that? The other reason for keeping it separate would be then you could just install it next to a coax outlet and not need a phone or Ethernet outlet next to it because you could then use the headless gateway's WIFI. Also what if a combined unit breaks then you couldn't watch TV or use the Internet. However, having a combined unit would make it easier to switch over to IPTV for bad weather backup, if they also stop making the UVerseTV modems in addition to the UVerseTV boxes.


*TIP* Its U-Verse, Not "UVerseTV" Sorry but its the small things that get to me


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> *TIP* Its U-Verse, Not "UVerseTV" Sorry but its the small things that get to me


Well AT&T has DSL modems that do UVerseTV, Internet and Phone and ones that just do Internet and Phone.


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Well AT&T has DSL modems that do UVerseTV, Internet and Phone and ones that just do Internet and Phone.


I know I have U-Verse tv, internet, phone


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> What if DTV combines their Server with a WIFI DSL Modem and Router into an all in one unit?


The benefit of including a DSL modem is too low. You might as well ask for one of each type of modem to be included and hope that the box can talk to every type of Internet in the country. Leave the modem separate.

A dedicated Wi-Fi server would not be a bad idea for serving clients separate from a home's network. But a WAN connection is best left to dedicated equipment.


----------



## b52pooh

What about the rural population that has no access to "broadband internet" other than through satellite. There ae still areas of the country without internet service fast enough or reliable enough to stream TV service.


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> The benefit of including a DSL modem is too low. You might as well ask for one of each type of modem to be included and hope that the box can talk to every type of Internet in the country. Leave the modem separate.
> 
> A dedicated Wi-Fi server would not be a bad idea for serving clients separate from a home's network. But a WAN connection is best left to dedicated equipment.


Sorry if I am repeating myself by posting this again but I was basing my suggestion off of this slide from an AT&T presentation after the merger. In this slide it looks like an all in one unit. I forgot that it also shows AT&T broadband and broadband from other providers going into it. Unless that isn't a highly detailed diagram and they just threw it together at the last min. for the presentation and it really is two units? I guess maybe plans could have changed after this?


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> Well AT&T has DSL modems that do UVerseTV, Internet and Phone and ones that just do Internet and Phone.


Well, Those modems would be wasted inside a dtv unit in half the country. At least in Uverse areas you know the service is available. Big difference there.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> Although I like the idea of a combined Server/DSL Modem their could be some problems I could see combining them. What if you just wanted DTV and the cable companies Internet? Would the cable modem be able to work with that? The other reason for keeping it separate would be then you could just install it next to a coax outlet and not need a phone or Ethernet outlet next to it because you could then use the headless gateway's WIFI. Also what if a combined unit breaks then you couldn't watch TV or use the Internet. However, having a combined unit would make it easier to switch over to IPTV for bad weather backup, if they also stop making the UVerseTV modems in addition to the UVerseTV boxes.


Well obviously they would use an ethernet port or wireless connection to access the user's home network if they didn't have AT&T DSL or chose to use a separate DSL modem.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I'm not sure if this is going off topic but I just thought having an all in one unit would be cool for bad weather backup because I am not sure what they are going to do once they go all HD. Otherwise if they don't anything then I could still see them keeping the separate.
> 
> Maybe what they could do is let DTV customers in the UVerse areas upgrade to a UVerseTV modem and use that for bad weather backup? However I am not sure what they would be able to charge for that? Or if UVerseTV customers would think that wasn't fair that DTV customers got UVerseTV for free or for some type of low fee? Also if DTV customers in the non UVerseTV areas would think that was fair that they couldn't use UVerseTV for bad weather backup?


UVerse TV is going away. They are not going to built it into anything. And they don't need a DSL modem integrated into the server for bad weather backup. It could stream Directv Now off the internet, if you had it configured (people with expensive internet may not want that enabled) though there would be some limitations since not all channels allow streaming (i.e. most people's locals for one)


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> UVerse TV is going away. They are not going to built it into anything. And they don't need a DSL modem integrated into the server for bad weather backup. It could stream Directv Now off the internet, if you had it configured (people with expensive internet may not want that enabled) though there would be some limitations since not all channels allow streaming (i.e. most people's locals for one)


That's a cool idea. The Headless server wouldn't have the DSL Modem built into it. The headless server would just connect to the separate DSL Modem and maybe switch over to DTV Now for bad weather backup? DTV Now would replace UVerseTV?


----------



## Troch2002

tylorert said:


> I know I have U-Verse tv, internet, phone


Does AT&T let Customers have U-verse tv and Directv at the same address?


----------



## tylorert

Troch2002 said:


> Does AT&T let Customers have U-verse tv and Directv at the same address?


U-Verse and Dish at my place, Directv and Xfinity at relative 1 place, and Directv+Phone and relative 2 place. I live at my place and at relative 1 place.


----------



## Troch2002

tylorert said:


> U-Verse and Dish at my place, Directv and Xfinity at relative 1 place, and Directv+Phone and relative 2 place. I live at my place and at relative 1 place.


Well in that case, I have Dish, Directv, Blueridge cable, Comcast,Optimum, Att and Verizon.
Since I have relatives too.


----------



## tylorert

Troch2002 said:


> Well in that case, I have Dish, Directv, Blueridge cable, Comcast,Optimum, Att and Verizon.
> Since I have relatives too.


Well my friend, I live in 2 places (Depending on events and time of year)


----------



## James Long

The question was DirecTV and UVerse at the same address.

The answer is why not? If they get the money for both why not sell both to the same address?
Might as well go for the trifecta and get DirecTV NOW at the same address.
(More money for AT&T.)


----------



## tylorert

James Long said:


> The question was DirecTV and UVerse at the same address.
> 
> The answer is why not? If they get the money for both why not sell both to the same address?
> Might as well go for the trifecta and get DirecTV NOW at the same address.
> (More money for AT&T.)


James, him and I have a thing... You would not understand


----------



## James Long

tylorert said:


> James, him and I have a thing... You would not understand


Keep your things to yourself. I understand more than will be discussed. We don't need this thread pulled further off topic.

But the point stands ... the question was "Does AT&T let Customers have U-verse tv and Directv at the same address?" and your post did not answer the question.

Now we can cue CraigerM to suggest UVerse and DirecTV on the same receiver. Which is an interesting concept.


----------



## tylorert

James Long said:


> Keep your things to yourself. I understand more than will be discussed. We don't need this thread pulled further off topic.
> 
> But the point stands ... the question was "Does AT&T let Customers have U-verse tv and Directv at the same address?" and your post did not answer the question.
> 
> Now we can cue CraigerM to suggest UVerse and DirecTV on the same receiver. Which is an interesting concept.


Well said James! Agreed! Very intersting!


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> Keep your things to yourself. I understand more than will be discussed. We don't need this thread pulled further off topic.
> 
> But the point stands ... the question was "Does AT&T let Customers have U-verse tv and Directv at the same address?" and your post did not answer the question.
> 
> Now we can cue CraigerM to suggest UVerse and DirecTV on the same receiver. Which is an interesting concept.


Thanks. Slice1900 thinks UVerseTV is going away. What if DTV Now replaces it and you would have those two services on the server? However they could still keep UVerseTV so when a UVerseTV DVR box breaks they could just come out with a hybrid DTV/UVerseTV server to replace it. AT&T isn't ordering anymore UVerseTV DVR and Receivers. I wonder how much longer those will last? Then if a person ordered UVerseTV the would use the hybrid server, client box and the UVerseTV modem. If they wanted DTV just the server. This way you wouldn't need the DSL modem integrated with the server.


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Thanks. Slice1900 thinks UVerseTV is going away. What if DTV Now replaces it and you would have those two services on the server? However they could still keep UVerseTV so when a UVerseTV DVR box breaks they could just come out with a hybrid DTV/UVerseTV server to replace it. AT&T isn't ordering anymore UVerseTV DVR and Receivers. I wonder how much longer those will last? Then if a person ordered UVerseTV the would use the hybrid server, client box and the UVerseTV modem. If they wanted DTV just the server. This way you wouldn't need the DSL modem integrated with the server.


U-Verse IS going away. They wont do any new installs except for replacement


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Thanks. Slice1900 thinks UVerseTV is going away. What if DTV Now replaces it and you would have those two services on the server? However they could still keep UVerseTV so when a UVerseTV DVR box breaks they could just come out with a hybrid DTV/UVerseTV server to replace it. AT&T isn't ordering anymore UVerseTV DVR and Receivers. I wonder how much longer those will last? Then if a person ordered UVerseTV the would use the hybrid server, client box and the UVerseTV modem. If they wanted DTV just the server. This way you wouldn't need the DSL modem integrated with the server.


And MY U-Verse DVR is on the edge of dieing. The HDD wear is showing ALOT.


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> U-Verse IS going away. They wont do any new installs except for replacement


If they keep it around just for replacements they will need a new box for those. However their is this:

AT&T U-verse TV Packages - Check U-verse Availability


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> AT&T U-verse TV Packages - Check U-verse Availability


Ohhhh. DANG!


----------



## Troch2002

James Long said:


> The question was DirecTV and UVerse at the same address.
> 
> The answer is why not? If they get the money for both why not sell both to the same address?
> Might as well go for the trifecta and get DirecTV NOW at the same address.
> (More money for AT&T.)


Thats exactly what I was wondering.
Money wise, sure.
But one has to wonder if a flag is raised when att or Directv enters the physical address. 
Would they force you on to one or the other?

Directv Now, I could see because there is no address verification other than a Zip code.

A dual U-verse Directv receiver IMO is pointless.
Only a fraction of the country can even get U-verse, So why invest in an infrastructure thats separate from essentially 20 million of your current customers equipment.

I don't see where thats even remotely financial smart.


----------



## James Long

Troch2002 said:


> But one has to wonder if a flag is raised when att or Directv enters the physical address.
> Would they force you on to one or the other?


AT&T is preferring to sell DirecTV, but the UVerse service is still being sold.
Multiple accounts at the same address should not be a problem.


----------



## cypherx

I think the diagram is just a rough block design at this point. Nothing to say that in ANY case - u-verse or not, that it is provided from that specific modem (Cable, xDSL, LTE, ONT) to an Ethernet jack on the server.

Maybe the server creates a DMVPN to AT&T and does its best to do QoS and manage an encrypted IPTV connection for VOD and rain fade. But even so its hard to manage a 3rd party internet connection.


----------



## slice1900

As far as Uverse, I don't see any reason AT&T needs to build support for it into new hardware. They already have Uverse hardware. Based on how fast the number of Uverse subscribers is falling (while Directv is rising by a nearly equal amount, showing how they are pushing new installs towards Directv unless they insist on Uverse or can't/won't put up a dish) they should have plenty of refurbished Uverse hardware to last for many years.

I expect the long term plan is to discontinue Uverse entirely and replace it with Directv Now, but they would have to be able to stream locals in all Uverse markets. That could take years to work out, but I'll bet by 2020 there are under a million Uverse subscribers.


----------



## tylorert

slice1900 said:


> As far as Uverse, I don't see any reason AT&T needs to build support for it into new hardware. They already have Uverse hardware. Based on how fast the number of Uverse subscribers is falling (while Directv is rising by a nearly equal amount, showing how they are pushing new installs towards Directv unless they insist on Uverse or can't/won't put up a dish) they should have plenty of refurbished Uverse hardware to last for many years.
> 
> I expect the long term plan is to discontinue Uverse entirely and replace it with Directv Now, but they would have to be able to stream locals in all Uverse markets. That could take years to work out, but I'll bet by 2020 there are under a million Uverse subscribers.


I get the idea, 1 device with integrated router support, MoCA support, Ethernet switched built in, Wireless broadcast built in, and an HDD for directv with 16 tuners. For people with AT&T availability. (GSM anyone) And make a version with a similar idea but for people without AT&T availability.


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> I get the idea, 1 device with integrated router support, MoCA support, Ethernet switched built in, Wireless broadcast built in, and an HDD for directv with 16 tuners. For people with AT&T availability. (GSM anyone) And make a version with a similar idea but for people without AT&T availability.


Maybe they will just get rid of UVerseTV once they can't refurbish the boxes anymore and will just keep using those until then. However I wonder if they will make DTV like UVerseTV and they will do something similar to this box. If they did something like this box not sure if it would have the tuners built into it or just be all IP based?

About your Network Box (GFRG200, GFRG210, GFRG250) - Fiber Help


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Maybe they will just get rid of UVerseTV once they can't refurbish the boxes anymore and will just keep using those until then. However I wonder if they will make DTV like UVerseTV and they will do something similar to this box. If they did something like this box not sure if it would have the tuners built into it or just be all IP based?
> 
> About your Network Box (GFRG200, GFRG210, GFRG250) - Fiber Help


Spot on


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> Spot on


Thanks. The only one thing I don't like about the all in one is if it breaks then you can't watch TV or surf the web. Maybe they will have a lot of them so if that happens they will be able to ship one to you the next day?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Thanks. The only one thing I don't like about the all in one is if it breaks then you can't watch TV or surf the web. Maybe they will have a lot of them so if that happens they will be able to ship one to you the next day?


Kid: how many days will it take to get a new box
Owl: let's find out 1, uhtwo, ahthree. 
Voice how many days will it take to get a replacement box, the world may never know!
(Next commercial)


----------



## slice1900

Finally had time to do a bit of digging in the FCC database and I turned this up. "Genie Air", anyone? 

FCC ID G95HS17 Genie Air by Technicolor Connected Home USA LLC

This one is the HS17-100 from Technicolor, the one linked earlier in the thread was Humax, so that would be the HS17-500. Wouldn't be terribly surprised if more are coming, and eventually models without the hard drive for commercial markets etc.

They also had an "Air TV" product that I thought for a moment was a new client, but it turns out it is a product they're making for Echostar to go along with Sling TV (to bring in local channels via antenna I guess)


----------



## CraigerM

I wonder when they will post photos of the HS17-100? Actually the main reason I am interested in the next server is if you can only get the new guide with it and if it has some type of bad weather backup. Otherwise if the current boxes get the new guide and it runs fast I would think about just keeping my HR-44 until you would have to go to the headless server client model, if they go headless. Then the only thing would be what they will do for bad weather when the go all HD in 2019 since the HD channels stay out longer in the HD.


----------



## slice1900

They applied to have the photos withheld for 90 days, but even when that runs out they only post photos of the hardware. They won't show what the screen looks like, you'll need to wait for a review to talk about that.

I'll bet it gets a new UI, but it is anyone's guess if that will be carried over to the Genie. If it does it'll probably make the Genie slow so be careful what you wish for.

As for all-HD, I've kind of come around to the view that they aren't dropping SD in 2019, but are simply dropping MPEG2 SD. All the MPEG2 SD channels on 101 (and 119 and 95) will be replaced with MPEG4 SD channels on 101, so we'll still see all the SD duplicates we see now. That would have several useful consequences for Directv:

1) simply need to ship replacements for SD receivers; no need to send an installer to replace any dishes
2) RVs don't have to do anything different other than replacing receivers
3) people who like SD for rain fade protection will continue to get it, with better quality SD


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> They applied to have the photos withheld for 90 days, but even when that runs out they only post photos of the hardware. They won't show what the screen looks like, you'll need to wait for a review to talk about that.
> 
> I'll bet it gets a new UI, but it is anyone's guess if that will be carried over to the Genie. If it does it'll probably make the Genie slow so be careful what you wish for.
> 
> As for all-HD, I've kind of come around to the view that they aren't dropping SD in 2019, but are simply dropping MPEG2 SD. All the MPEG2 SD channels on 101 (and 119 and 95) will be replaced with MPEG4 SD channels on 101, so we'll still see all the SD duplicates we see now. That would have several useful consequences for Directv:
> 
> 1) simply need to ship replacements for SD receivers; no need to send an installer to replace any dishes
> 2) RVs don't have to do anything different other than replacing receivers
> 3) people who like SD for rain fade protection will continue to get it, with better quality SD


I forgot that the new guide would probably need a current and faster processor to run fast on the new system. Especially if it has a lot of graphics. Would we want that type of new guide on the current boxes if it ran slow on their current processor? Also what if the new guide on the next server is all IP based? Since you think they might switch to MPEG 4 SD channels in 2019, what if another feature I thought of that maybe they could do in the new guide, would be if they did an auto switch over the SD channels during bad weather?

However I think Charter's new guide is from Active Video and its a cloud guide designed to run on their older boxes. Maybe the cloud guide adjusts for what type of box its on? What if DTV's new guide is also cloud based?


----------



## slice1900

Quit thinking everything will be IP or cloud based. You keep harping on this, but it isn't going to happen, because not everyone has a fast/cheap internet connection at the ready. What are people in RVs supposed to do? People who live in rural areas that don't have good broadband options?

Nevermind that you do NOT want to have your receiver going out to the internet to get the next page of guide data, and the providers don't update guide data often enough that fetching it as needed instead of downloading it and storing it makes any difference. No one is updating guide data when a football game runs over, so even if it was cloud based you would still need to pad your recordings of 60 Minutes or whatever comes after a game.

A cloud guide is fine for cable providers, because everyone connected to cable has a way of accessing a low latency network to grab that guide data. Satellite subscribers do not. Just because the tech press hypes cloud this and cloud that, cloud is NOT the solution for everything. Please stop.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> Quit thinking everything will be IP or cloud based. You keep harping on this, but it isn't going to happen, because not everyone has a fast/cheap internet connection at the ready. What are people in RVs supposed to do? People who live in rural areas that don't have good broadband options?
> 
> Nevermind that you do NOT want to have your receiver going out to the internet to get the next page of guide data, and the providers don't update guide data often enough that fetching it as needed instead of downloading it and storing it makes any difference. No one is updating guide data when a football game runs over, so even if it was cloud based you would still need to pad your recordings of 60 Minutes or whatever comes after a game.
> 
> A cloud guide is fine for cable providers, because everyone connected to cable has a way of accessing a low latency network to grab that guide data. Satellite subscribers do not. Just because the tech press hypes cloud this and cloud that, cloud is NOT the solution for everything. Please stop.


Don't get me wrong I like tuner based equipment but I think we will have to get used to the future of TV being all IP. I wouldn't like having an all IP based gateway because if it goes down you are screwed because then the other equipment attached to it wont work. However their are advantages to going all IP, using consumer equipment to watch TV, if the provider will let that consumer equipment work with it. Check out page 31 in this presentation. Check out page 31 in this presentation.


----------



## longrider

CraigerM said:


> Don't get me wrong I like tuner based equipment but I think we will have to get used to the future of TV being all IP. I wouldn't like having an all IP based gateway because if it goes down you are screwed because then the other equipment attached to it wont work. However their are advantages to going all IP, using consumer equipment to watch TV, if the provider will let that consumer equipment work with it. Check out page 31 in this presentation.


I dont see the connection, that page is talking about AT&Ts phone and data network which absolutely is going to digital over analog and fiber over copper, along with the most personal phone traffic moving to mobile. However in the TV realm broadcast will always win out over multicast. DirecTV sends out one data stream and whether that stream is received by one person or 200 million people makes no difference.


----------



## CraigerM

longrider said:


> I dont see the connection, that page is talking about AT&Ts phone and data network which absolutely is going to digital over analog and fiber over copper, along with the most personal phone traffic moving to mobile. However in the TV realm broadcast will always win out over multicast. DirecTV sends out one data stream and whether that stream is received by one person or 200 million people makes no difference.


Oh, sorry I thought that page meant TV I didn't know it was phone and data network.


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Oh, sorry I thought that page meant TV I didn't know it was phone and data network.


Just because you see DTV sat does not mean its TV  But now with internet speeds increasing every month, AND the demand for internet, it will soon be everywhere. I lived in rual Tennessee and they had fiber lines installed. The lines did not get activated since they were doing work. We got offered AT&T U-Verse internet and phone when it would come out. But I estimate soon their will be a "Hybrid" Satellite TV.


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Maybe the way to look at it if the next system is headless gateway/client you can still use your current equipment. That way if the headless gateway went down you could still use your current equipment. You could also keep the current equipment until they no longer refurbished them and then you would have to go with client boxes. However, would the headless gateway/client system will work with the current equipment?


Nailed it! Now if D* would let us have the Genie and the Genie AIR. (Have multible genie) Maby the AIR is a tuner extension


----------



## CraigerM

tylorert said:


> Nailed it! Now if D* would let us have the Genie and the Genie AIR. (Have multible genie) Maby the AIR is a tuner extension


Thanks. Sorry, I deleted my last post because I forgot if this was answered before in another thread.


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Thanks. Sorry, I deleted my last post because I forgot if this was answered before in another thread.


But I am thinking the AIR is just a extended amount of tuners and storage space. Maby for people that need a lot of clients. AT&T might suppries us. For all we may know it might be a Robot tv!  It could be a "on-the-go" thing.


----------



## slice1900

I think the Air is just branding - continuation of Directv's ads about how terrible wires are. With 2 2.4 GHz and 4 5.8 GHz antennas the HS17 can do some pretty advanced directional beamforming - something that is NOT needed if it is only acting as a client of your wireless network. So to me that says it has the functionality of the WCCK built into it, and it will be fast enough and work well enough for most people that you could have all your clients - including 4K - be wireless and not notice the difference between them and wired clients.

Bet they push that 'Air' branding and encourage people to install wireless clients. Yeah, the hardware costs a bit more, but installers will save time not dealing with coax except from the dish to the server.

I don't think there will be a "extended amount of tuners and storage space" box. You'll just get two HS17s if you need that. Surely with all the development time they've had, they've had time to address the software limitations that made two Genies on an account something they didn't want to support.


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> Don't get me wrong I like tuner based equipment but I think we will have to get used to the future of TV being all IP.


That is a prediction, not a statement of fact. The future of TV will not be all IP. Certainly not from a standpoint of everything delivered via streaming over one's choice of ISP instead of delivery over the provider's dedicated network (satellite/cable/fiber/OTA).

Instead of applying your preconceived opinion of what every system will become why not wait until the actual capabilities of the HS17-100 are released?


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> Don't get me wrong I like tuner based equipment but I think we will have to get used to the future of TV being all IP. I wouldn't like having an all IP based gateway because if it goes down you are screwed because then the other equipment attached to it wont work. However their are advantages to going all IP, using consumer equipment to watch TV, if the provider will let that consumer equipment work with it. Check out page 31 in this presentation. Check out page 31 in this presentation.


Ip based really helps in one situation... when you don't have enough bandwidth for everything to be broadcast from the original source.

DIRECTV does not have a problem with that at all. In fact they can't even fill all their space right now.

And if you take out the technical aspects of how ip based systems work and look at the theory of how they work, swim based systems are the same idea. Sending out only a small portion of the entire signal to different areas. But it's all done locally in the actual home where the system is because that's the only place there is a bandwidth problem with trying to broadcast every station in a DIRECTV system.

You don't have to use ip based to use customers own equipment. But moca kinda is in that realm, and that's what everyone seems to be using (or some variant of it) in the homes for clients these days.

So any ip based solution really would do nothing that I can see for dtv satellite delivered programing. And the on demand stuff already is ip based from what I can gather so.....

In the end it mostly doesn't matter for the consumer. As long as they can get what they want the underlying technical specs won't matter all that much to the vast majority of people.


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> That is a prediction, not a statement of fact. The future of TV will not be all IP. Certainly not from a standpoint of everything delivered via streaming over one's choice of ISP instead of delivery over the provider's dedicated network (satellite/cable/fiber/OTA).
> 
> Instead of applying your preconceived opinion of what every system will become why not wait until the actual capabilities of the HS17-100 are released?


I did apologize in a previous post because I was basing switch to IP based on a slide in AT&T's presentation after the merger. I didn't know that was for mobile and not TV.


----------



## CraigerM

Not sure if this is true but I found this searching for 4k info on a Sony site. This was in the last post.

Re: DirecTV 4k accurate info please? - the Community

"However, there will be a "download" sometime soon that will allow the HR-54 to send a 4K signal through the HDMI cable. I presume that this is a firmware update."


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> Not sure if this is true but I found this searching for 4k info on a Sony site. This was in the last post.
> 
> Re: DirecTV 4k accurate info please? - the Community
> 
> "However, there will be a "download" sometime soon that will allow the HR-54 to send a 4K signal through the HDMI cable. I presume that this is a firmware update."


Fake. It is 100% impossible for a HR54 to output 4K. It only has a HDMI 1.4x output. HDMI 2.0 is required for 4K (along with HDCP 2.2). Plus, that post was dated 2/2016.

Also, the claims that at one point the HR34 and HR44 could pull 4K when they never could.


----------



## P Smith

CraigerM said:


> Not sure if this is true but I found this searching for 4k info on a Sony site. This was in the last post.
> 
> Re: DirecTV 4k accurate info please? - the Community
> 
> "However, there will be a "download" sometime soon that will allow the HR-54 to send a 4K signal through the HDMI cable. I presume that this is a firmware update."


for sure it's offtopic
for sure it was revealed a few times - 4K support by HDMI 2.0 what would require HW change in HR44//54
for sure that post created by technically inept person


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Fake. It is 100% impossible for a HR54 to output 4K. It only has a HDMI 1.4x output. HDMI 2.0 is required for 4K (along with HDCP 2.2). Plus, that post was dated 2/2016.
> 
> Also, the claims that at one point the HR34 and HR44 could pull 4K when they never could.


The first part of your post is correct, but not the second. Last spring people had HR34 and HR44 receivers forwarding 4K channels to their C61K or RVU TV just like the HR54 did. Once they went from testing to 'production' they made it so only the HR54 would work - presumably because only it has the extra two tuners that will be needed down the road for bonding. Otherwise a "five tuner" HR44 would lose a tuner if you watched a 4K channel, which would be rather confusing for the average customer. They decided they would only support 4K on the HR54, but there was no technical reason it couldn't work with an HR34 or HR44. For that matter, there's absolutely no technical reason an HR20 couldn't record a 4K program today (since they are using single transponders, not bonding) and watch the recording on a C61K or RVU TV, but obviously they have no reason or desire to update the HR2x firmware to support THAT.

I'm wondering if they might decide not to support 4K on the HR54 down the road, and require the HS17. Because given the utter lack of 4K channels, and lack of announcement of any, it appears the HS17 will beat real full time 4K channels to the punch, and perhaps beat any real need to use bonded transponders by years. When they cooked up the stopgap HR54 solution, they wanted to get 4K out the door, but probably didn't realize how long it would take for anyone to actually broadcast real full time 4K content. So maybe they won't want to support 4K on the HR54 in the long run, and will offer 4K customers a free upgrade to the HS17 when it comes out to avoid it.

The fact they are only supporting watching one 4K channel with the HR54 is another reason to get all their 4K customers over to the HS17, because once they have a few real 4K channels that will become a problem - if nothing else what if you have several 4K TVs and want to have the same program on more than one? The fact there are already two models of HS17 on the FCC site shows they are probably going to hit the ground running with production, so they should have more than enough of them to do that.


----------



## peds48

At the beginning (and I am sure is still the case) an HR34/44) could pull 4K from VOD and forward it to a C61K and/or RVU TV


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

peds48 said:


> At the beginning (and I am sure is still the case) an HR34/44) could pull 4K from VOD and forward it to a C61K and/or RVU TV


there is no such magic as "pull 4k" - it's the _same_ transport stream what does recording by *any* DVR; but the DVR must have FW feature to send 4k TS from HDD to MoCA 4k client


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> The fact there are already two models of HS17 on the FCC site shows they are probably going to hit the ground running with production, so they should have more than enough of them to do that.


Doesn't that just provide the FCC certifications? It doesn't have specs or photos or anything, correct? So has it been confirmed 100% that all models will be headless? The H could just as easily stand for Home?

It just doesn't make sense to me to have a headless device for the average consumer or the average CSR who can't even program a remote anymore. How are they going to support it? What if you get connection errors or something like that? If you can't confirm the server portion is working as a first step, you are basically shooting at anything that moves.

With the HR54, you can at least move that to another TV, with a headless server you would need a dedicated coax outlet next to a power outlet or you would have to put the server next to the client in every single household. That could be problematic for wall mounters.


----------



## CraigerM

What if they have two models? Maybe they headless one is for homes with structured wiring, apartments, bars. Then another one that is headed and outputs to 4k over HDMI for homes that don't have structured wiring and small families?


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> What if they have two models? Maybe they headless one is for homes with structured wiring, apartments, bars. Then another one that is headed and outputs to 4k over HDMI for homes that don't have structured wiring and small families?


I REALLY hope the H stands for home. Headless for the consumer market is a very risky gamble imo. They'd be the only provider that does that. Structured wiring wouldn't help you since DirecTV whdvr runs over coax.

Why force truck rolls for something that in most cases a consumer can troubleshoot over the phone? Without being able to view the server output, that becomes nothing more then "try press the red button and see what happens".


----------



## peds48

P Smith said:


> there is no such magic as "pull 4k" - it's the _same_ transport stream what does recording by *any* DVR; but the DVR must have FW feature to send 4k TS from HDD to MoCA 4k client


Sorry bud but transponders are not involved in VOD. Duh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> I REALLY hope the H stands for home. Headless for the consumer market is a very risky gamble imo. They'd be the only provider that does that. Structured wiring wouldn't help you since DirecTV whdvr runs over coax.
> 
> Why force truck rolls for something that in most cases a consumer can troubleshoot over the phone? Without being able to view the server output, that becomes nothing more then "try press the red button and see what happens".


What if they design the next system to work with structured wiring? I have been researching the headless gateway and that seems to be the trend that some TV providers are moving toward. You can now put a hard drive in a modem and that could make it easier to stream media around the home. I posted this in here awhile ago but I don't think anyone read it. Cisco has an interesting report about the next generation gateway's and stb's.

http://www.cisco.com/web/offer/emear/34153/thumbs/Video_Summit_Day_2-Breakout-Ken_Morse.pdf


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> What if they design the next system to work with structured wiring?


Interesting, but how many people have structured wiring? Granted, I don't ask anybody, but I only know one person that does. When I built my house in 2002, structured wiring was a $3000 option. Nowadays, new homes in my city I think come with it, but you have to be willing to live out in the boonies to get a new home anywhere around here. The main central area has all been built out. Only the outskirts that are like 30 minutes from the nearest freeway still have new homes. I'm like 2 minutes from the nearest freeway. And those outskirt homes... 2400 sqft 2 story house on a 3000 sq ft lot with 1.7% taxes and a $1M price tag .


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> Interesting, but how many people have structured wiring? Granted, I don't ask anybody, but I only know one person that does. When I built my house in 2002, structured wiring was a $3000 option. Nowadays, new homes in my city I think come with it, but you have to be willing to live out in the boonies to get a new home anywhere around here. The main central area has all been built out. Only the outskirts that are like 30 minutes from the nearest freeway still have new homes. I'm like 2 minutes from the nearest freeway. And those outskirt homes... 2400 sqft 2 story house on a 3000 sq ft lot with 1.7% taxes and a $1M price tag .


Don't all new homes come with structured wiring or is that still an option? What if the next gateway/server is small enough to fit in a structured wiring cabinet?


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> Don't all new homes come with structured wiring or is that still an option? What if the next gateway/server is small enough to fit in a structured wiring cabinet?


My house doesn't have the option, but all RG6 outlets loop up to the attic and then down to the utility box (except for my custom OTA run from the attic down to the living room). Phones are all Cat5e looped up the attic and then down to the utility box. No network jacks, no conduits, nada... if I want to add wiring, gotta notch open drywall.

Cat5e is already out... you'll need Cat6 for the new Ethernet standard (although it'll work at 50% speed on Cat5e). Some sites also claim you'll get full speed on Cat5e on shorter runs as well, so its not fully clear yet.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Doesn't that just provide the FCC certifications? It doesn't have specs or photos or anything, correct? So has it been confirmed 100% that all models will be headless? The H could just as easily stand for Home?
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to me to have a headless device for the average consumer or the average CSR who can't even program a remote anymore. How are they going to support it? What if you get connection errors or something like that? If you can't confirm the server portion is working as a first step, you are basically shooting at anything that moves.
> 
> With the HR54, you can at least move that to another TV, with a headless server you would need a dedicated coax outlet next to a power outlet or you would have to put the server next to the client in every single household. That could be problematic for wall mounters.


It is pretty obvious how you would configure a headless device. What else do you have in your home that's headless that you are able to configure, a wireless router perhaps?

Other options would be that it has video output, just doesn't allow programming over that output, or that the clients/RVU TVs can do it.

Pretty safe to say the HS17 is headless since why would the OEM call it that if it wasn't. That doesn't mean there couldn't be another model coming later that has 4K output, but why have two models? They obviously chose to make it headless for a good reason - with how quickly specs are changing in the 4K world, with HDR standards still undecided, 120 fps coming, maybe 8K coming someday, why not build a box that can handle ALL that which only requires replacing cheap clients? And why not limit yourself to only having to deal with HDCP DRM issues in a single type of hardware, instead of in the server as well?


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> It is pretty obvious how you would configure a headless device. What else do you have in your home that's headless that you are able to configure, a wireless router perhaps?
> 
> Other options would be that it has video output, just doesn't allow programming over that output, or that the clients/RVU TVs can do it.
> 
> Pretty safe to say the HS17 is headless since why would the OEM call it that if it wasn't. That doesn't mean there couldn't be another model coming later that has 4K output, but why have two models? They obviously chose to make it headless for a good reason - with how quickly specs are changing in the 4K world, with HDR standards still undecided, 120 fps coming, maybe 8K coming someday, why not build a box that can handle ALL that which only requires replacing cheap clients? And why not limit yourself to only having to deal with HDCP DRM issues in a single type of hardware, instead of in the server as well?


Well, I'll disagree on the good reason part LOL... DirecTV equipment doesn't have the best design, but we've already discussed that . Like I said, what other TV provider is going headless? Your analogy is assuming everybody and their mom knows how to configure a router. If a CSR can't even walk you through programming a remote anymore, you expect them to walk you through something technical like http'ing into a headless server control page or figuring out why you can't access it? You expect a CSR to be able to troubleshoot your networking issues? What about scenarios where the headless server isn't on the network, but just DECA? Or you don't have a PC, laptop, etc? Then what? Then you have to use your phone? Try using the DirecTV iPhone app . CSRs don't have a clue about the phone apps either. I'm not arguing with you about what your saying, I'm just saying for the general population, you gotta keep it simple otherwise you're going to have tons of truck rolls and support calls and complicated setups have more points of failure.

As for 4K, if this was 2 or 3 or more years ago, I would have agreed with you. There were early adopters who either didn't do their homework on didn't care that what they were buying would not work long term, much as there was in the early days of HD. 720p TVs anyone? MPEG2 DirecTivo? If someone was dumb enough to buy a 4K TV without HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 that's their own fault. The requirements for "real world" 4K were well documented. Some people just wanted to be the first on the block with a 4K TV.

HDR10 is the official HDR spec of UHD BluRay (at this time). DolbyVision is a competing spec. You'd be silly to buy equipment today that doesn't do both.

Sorry, but I've never had HDCP issues even in the early days. Forum posts with handshake issues are pretty rare on both this forum and AVS. I know some people have them, but for the most part its extremely stable. This again goes back to people not knowing what they are buying because they don't know, don't care or the manufacturer is misleading them. Bad cables, bad spec cables, etc.

Yes, there will always be new stuff coming, but HDMI 2.0a/b / HDCP 2.2 / HDR10 / DolbyVision is a good baseline for functionality for the near / mid term. Baby steps and minor bells and whistles from here on out for 4K... the 2015's -> 2016's didn't have much new, just DolbyVision and some minor bells and whistles.


----------



## inkahauts

peds48 said:


> Sorry bud but transponders are not involved in VOD. Duh.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All 4K on DIRECTV is delivered via satellite. I think that's what he is referring to.


----------



## inkahauts

It's a double edge sword but the reality is there's something new every year. There's nothing groundbreaking new unless you look at differences in groups of time or several generations. Usually four years is enough to see bigger overall changes. Look closely and it's never a big change from one year to the next. It's incremental yearly that adds up. 

With that said i saw fantastic beasts at an amc theater on a Dolby cinema screen. All I can say is wow and I hope that's the quality direction we head. Reminds me of how THX first blasted onto the screen to really change audio and visual in the 90s


----------



## CraigerM

One thing I think that would be cool about going headless is what if the Smart TV got faster and better than the client boxes? Except for customers who don't have Smart TV's. Then they would need the client boxes. The only thing I would worry about is if the WIFI signal dropped the connection sometimes from the headless server. I think it would cool to just have the Smart TV with no boxes attached to it. Except I like to play video games I would still need the PS4 for that.


----------



## slice1900

Well not only smart TV, but hopefully Directv will make their RVU client app available on third party streaming boxes like Apple TV and Roku. Won't save you any money since you usually get the clients for free, but those will always be far more powerful than what Directv do with their bottom dollar clients, and offer a wider variety of connectivity options.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Well not only smart TV, but hopefully Directv will make their RVU client app available on third party streaming boxes like Apple TV and Roku. Won't save you any money since you usually get the clients for free, but those will always be far more powerful than what Directv do with their bottom dollar clients, and offer a wider variety of connectivity options.


Don't people that use RVU pretty universally complain about it? At least on the dbstalk forums . They say its worse then the clients. Makes sense. Should leave the TVs limited processing power for the TV, not wasting it on decrypting video packets .


----------



## slice1900

That's a problem that should fix itself as TVs get more processing power. It would most definitely not be a problem with the most recent Apple TV and Roku (at least the full fledged one, not the dinky streaming stick)

There's more latency in an IR remote signal than there is in a properly working DECA network, let alone ethernet or wifi, so there's no reason stuff like trick play can't be just as responsive with a client as with a directly connected DVR. The fact that RVU TV clients are so poor (at least based on what people report, never seen one myself) is Directv's fault. They should have set minimum specs for performance to insure a good experience, but I guess marketing won out over engineering and they liked the idea of TVs with built in client support.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> Don't people that use RVU pretty universally complain about it? At least on the dbstalk forums . They say its worse then the clients. Makes sense. Should leave the TVs limited processing power for the TV, not wasting it on decrypting video packets .


That was true for first generation stuff. But the last few generations have been good with the right tv. My mom uses her built in RVU on her Samsung and its easily as good or better than a client. It's a 4K one too. Very fast response to everything. And solid too. I'd gets constant phone calls if it wasn't working right. 

So that notion really doesn't hold water these days with every tv. Hers is a higher end Samsung from two years ago as I recall.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I have to agree with everything SledgeHammer is saying, the HS receiver should have a 4K HDMI output. If the Hopper 3 can have one why can't the HS have one too?

I wonder if the new receiver will support PIP? Maybe a Sports Bar mode like the Hopper 3? It would be nice.


----------



## P Smith

yeah ! sure ! SUPER bar - 9 windows !


----------



## CraigerM

I guess on the 4k TV's the PQ and guide don't look washed out and the guide doesn't run slow? The only thing I would wonder about is still needing HDMI for the best PQ. I found this RVU brochure and the diagram looks like the Server is headless. Another thing I noticed in the diagram is RVU WIFI.

http://rvualliance.org/sites/default/files/RVU Handout_final.pdf


----------



## compnurd

I use RVU on my js8500. After the last couple of firmwares the trick play has been much improved and is now on par with the C61. Saves having something else plugged in


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> That was true for first generation stuff. But the last few generations have been good with the right tv. My mom uses her built in RVU on her Samsung and its easily as good or better than a client. It's a 4K one too. Very fast response to everything. And solid too. I'd gets constant phone calls if it wasn't working right.
> 
> So that notion really doesn't hold water these days with every tv. Hers is a higher end Samsung from two years ago as I recall.


Is she getting 4K content? I'm wondering how well it will work with 4K content since that'll require more horsepower, potentially with HDR?

While I'm against extra boxes (obviously, lol)... I'd probably still off-load to a client to give the TV all the CPU it can get.

One question though, when you use RVU, you have to use the TV remote, correct? You can't use the DirecTV remote? So you're missing a lot of buttons, aren't you?


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> One question though, when you use RVU, you have to use the TV remote, correct? You can't use the DirecTV remote? So you're missing a lot of buttons, aren't you?


You can use an RC7X remote control for any RVU TV. keep in mind that the RC7X Will only control the RVU portion of the TV, other smart features must be control with the OEM remote control.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

I do wonder if Directv will do something to match Dish's "sports bar mode", seeing as how sports is Directv's bread and butter. They could create a 'super client' that grabbed four tuners to implement it, or the server could grab the additional tuners and send the 4 way picture to any client or RVU TV.


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> You can use an RC7X remote control for any RVU TV. keep in mind that the RC7X Will only control the RVU portion of the TV, other smart features must be control with the OEM remote control.


The clients can still use the RC6X full size remote though? That little remote sucks. Although you can't do the RF with the new boxes, no big deal since RF never worked on the old remotes either. I have the "fast scrolling" bug when I try to use it. Wonderful DirecTV engineering where they never fix anything.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> The clients can still use the RC6X full size remote though? That little remote sucks. Although you can't do the RF with the new boxes, no big deal since RF never worked on the old remotes either. I have the "fast scrolling" bug when I try to use it. Wonderful DirecTV engineering where they never fix anything.


Yes, the RC6x remote controls work on any of RF4CE or Zigbee equipped receivers but only in IR as you mentioned. Not sure what bug you mention with the legacy remotes, never heard of such a thing and always had a good experience when I used them.


----------



## CraigerM

I wonder if DTV would eventually want the primary install method to be RVU WIFI but if a TV didn't have RVU WIFI it would it would get a client box?


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Yes, the RC6x remote controls work on any of RF4CE or Zigbee equipped receivers but only in IR as you mentioned. Not sure what bug you mention with the legacy remotes, never heard of such a thing and always had a good experience when I used them.


If you use the big remote in RF mode with the HR2x and maneuver around the menus & guide "quickly", you'll get a "fast scroll effect". Like normally, when I'm in the guide, I'll go up to channel 2 and then use page down repeatedly while quick scanning the guide. In RF mode, if you hit the page down too fast, the guide goes haywire and scrolls like 3 or 4 pages instead of one. It's a well known issue. DirecTV never fixed it.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> Is she getting 4K content? I'm wondering how well it will work with 4K content since that'll require more horsepower, potentially with HDR?
> 
> While I'm against extra boxes (obviously, lol)... I'd probably still off-load to a client to give the TV all the CPU it can get.
> 
> One question though, when you use RVU, you have to use the TV remote, correct? You can't use the DirecTV remote? So you're missing a lot of buttons, aren't you?


She's watched 4K on it. No different than viewing Hi Definition experience wise from what I personally have seen. She did say wow that looks incredible. So even she noticed the quality difference.

And no, you use the DIRECTV remote. Rc7x. You program it specifically for that tv running in RVU mode so it's just like using the remote with a client. Easy as can be.

By the way I did set it up to see how it would work with a client for a while. There was zero difference. (Although it was not a 4K client, so couldn't even watch 4K with it)

The RVU was just better in this case. I wouldn't worry about horsepower for the tv and having more boxes myself. Not unless you have issues.


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> I wonder if DTV would eventually want the primary install method to be RVU WIFI but if a TV didn't have RVU WIFI it would it would get a client box?


Lol, "Anti-Drug abuse" Look at the forms of the FCC


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> If you use the big remote in RF mode with the HR2x and maneuver around the menus & guide "quickly", you'll get a "fast scroll effect". Like normally, when I'm in the guide, I'll go up to channel 2 and then * use page down repeatedly* while quick scanning the guide. In RF mode, if you hit the page down too fast, the guide goes haywire and *scrolls like 3 or 4 pages *instead of one. It's a well known issue. DirecTV never fixed it.


 Well, if you press the button 4 times, I would expect the guide to scroll 4 pages in this instance. So I see no bug here, perhaps on IR there are missed commands where you press the button 4 times but the receiver only sees 3.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Well, if you press the button 4 times, I would expect the guide to scroll 4 pages in this instance. So I see no bug here, perhaps on IR there are missed commands where you press the button 4 times but the receiver only sees 3.


Sorry, mistyped / misinfo'ed my post. If you press the down *arrow* in the guide or menus it goes down 1 row. Imagine you are quick scanning the guide and you see a few shows on a page that you want more info about (what I do), so techies like us move around quickly... imagine you are on the top row of the guide and you press the down arrow twice at about the same speed as you would double click a mouse, maybe a bit slower... it should go down 2 rows... in IR mode, it does exactly that 100% of the time... in RF mode it sometimes fast scrolls down 3 or 4 *pages* at once... I'd say on my HR24 and new RF6x remote, it does that about 40% of the time. So you either have to go back to IR mode or click much slower then you want. Its not hard to duplicate, I can do it at will... I'd rather use RF mode so I don't have to aim the remote so accurately, but that bug is too annoying to use, so I run IR...

I did post about it a few years ago on here when I first noticed it and a few others chimed in that its a known issue. Something about suspected interference in the front panel or something.

No way in hell you'd ever reach somebody at DirecTV that could fix it .

One other annoying issue (I think you were in the thread where I wanted to block my DVR from the internet since the cloud searches are flakey) is that the cloud search doesn't send the "Live Program" indicator... the sat guide does. If your DVR is using the sat guide, it offers to auto pad live programs for you. NICE. If you use cloud search, it doesn't. On the same exact program. NOT nice.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I wonder if DTV would eventually want the primary install method to be RVU WIFI but if a TV didn't have RVU WIFI it would it would get a client box?


Based on the "Genie Air" branding I think there's a distinct possibility of that, though even with 4x MIMO beamforming using 5 GHz I'm skeptical they could standardize on that without running into issues in some places - especially if people move their stuff around after the installer leaves. Should be much more reliable than using the WCCK is today though, at least.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> Based on the "Genie Air" branding I think there's a distinct possibility of that, though even with 4x MIMO beamforming using 5 GHz I'm skeptical they could standardize on that without running into issues in some places - especially if people move their stuff around after the installer leaves. Should be much more reliable than using the WCCK is today though, at least.


How reliable would a WIFI connection like that be? Beamforming looks impressive but I wonder how many times you might loose a connection to the server?


----------



## tylorert

tylorert said:


> Lol, "Anti-Drug abuse" Look at the forms of the FCC


Im Gunna Smoke 110! 110 Is the good stuff but old! Im going to smoke some "Air" (Sorry just had to do this)


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> How reliable would a WIFI connection like that be? Beamforming looks impressive but I wonder how many times you might loose a connection to the server?


It is mostly 2.4 GHz that has the issues, because there are effectively only three channels to use, and you have other stuff using those bands like Bluetooth and cordless phones, and everyone tries to solve problems by cranking up the power in their router to the maximum allowable so then neighbors interfere with each other.

5 GHz is far better in that regard since it has so many channels, though it doesn't penetrate walls as well. But since most people don't move TVs around all that often, once you get it working it should stay working.

Directv has been installing wireless clients for a couple years now, so if they decide to go the default wireless route presumably they feel confident that they know the pitfalls and have solved them with the new equipment or have installation procedures to insure a setup is working properly before the installer leaves - sort of like the IV they do for satellite dish aiming, except they could do it for wireless client placement. They would obviously still have the traditional wired installation available for those who prefer it, or for houses that are either too large or have other issues like old school plaster walls.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Directv has been installing wireless clients for a couple years now, so if they decide to go the default wireless route presumably they feel confident that they know the pitfalls and have solved them with the new equipment or have installation procedures to insure a setup is working properly before the installer leaves - sort of like the IV they do for satellite dish aiming, except they could do it for wireless client placement. They would obviously still have the traditional wired installation available for those who prefer it, or for houses that are either too large or have other issues like old school plaster walls.


Problem with that is that I don't want a wireless client on top of my fridge with a 50ft cable to my TV . Unfortunately with wireless, the best placement (for wifi) isn't always the best placement in practice. I have a co-worker with the wireless clients, and he hates them, he says they have a ton of problems.

Also, 5ghz is starting to get saturated as well since 2.4ghz is so saturated. That's one of the reasons that the FCC opened up some DFS channels for AC. So far there is only one *device* on the market that can use them for 160mhz channels, so technically you need 2 of those devices (one as a router and one as a wireless bridge) -- that's a $400 investment. I'm running this setup myself because 5ghz is saturated at my house.

Don't forget you'll need something that'll be able to run 4K. AC setups that can run 4K reliably aren't that cheap .


----------



## slice1900

No one needs 160 MHz channels in their home, that's a ridiculous waste of 5 GHz spectrum. I guess if enough people think like you 5 GHz will soon get crowded. Even if you pay for one of those monster routers with the 8 5 GHz antennas required to handle 160 MHz channels it is just wasted money in a home. Almost every smartphone or tablet has only one antenna, limiting them to 20 MHz operation. All the rest of that 160 MHz channel capacity goes to waste when talking to such a client. Some high end laptops have two antennas, so you're still wasting most of it there. 160 MHz wide channels are only useful when meshing to another monster AP with 8 antennas, something you don't need to do in a home (maybe you need to mesh if you have a large home, but you don't need multi gigabit meshing) If you have a wave 2 AC device then at least it can talk to multiple single antenna devices at once, but that really only matters in places with a lot of devices - a public place, not a home.

It is too bad the wireless access point OEMs are in a completely pointless speed race, and destroying the utility of the 5 GHz spectrum by marketing things to home users they do not need and should not deploy. It is as silly as the 'core' race in smartphones. Nevermind that AC itself is mostly pointless in most homes. It gets its speed boost by using QAM256 instead of QAM64 like the fastest wireless N grades. Only problem is that the SNR you need for QAM256 means it is pretty much limited to line of sight. If you get behind a wall, your AC router will drop down to N speeds. Great for say a lecture hall, not so much for a home where most people like having walls here and there (unless you live in a Frank Lloyd Wright open plan house)

Luckily you only need 30 Mbps for 4K on Directv, which allows many such streams even with N. People who have wasted money on an enterprise router that grabs 160 MHz for a single channel might have more trouble using wireless with Directv, since they're unnecessarily wasting so many channels. People who have more sane deployments should have a better shot at making it work


----------



## James Long

Wi-Fi is the CB radio of the 21st century.
Everybody engineers their own radio for "just a little" more power and the whole band turns to junk.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> No one needs 160 MHz channels in their home, that's a ridiculous waste of 5 GHz spectrum. I guess if enough people think like you 5 GHz will soon get crowded. Even if you pay for one of those monster routers with the 8 5 GHz antennas required to handle 160 MHz channels it is just wasted money in a home. Almost every smartphone or tablet has only one antenna, limiting them to 20 MHz operation. All the rest of that 160 MHz channel capacity goes to waste when talking to such a client. Some high end laptops have two antennas, so you're still wasting most of it there. *160 MHz wide channels are only useful when meshing to another monster AP with 8 antennas, something you don't need to do in a home* (maybe you need to mesh if you have a large home, but you don't need multi gigabit meshing) If you have a wave 2 AC device then at least it can talk to multiple single antenna devices at once, but that really only matters in places with a lot of devices - a public place, not a home.


Ding ding ding, we have a winner. That's what I'm doing. I'm using them so I can get a 2600Mbps backhaul channel from the bridge to the router. Like I said 5Ghz is saturated at my house with 5Ghz N and 5Ghz AC networks from the neighbors. I had difficulty maintaining a reliable AC connection with my old router / bridge. My new router & bridge only have 4 antennas btw, not the 8 antenna monsters. I have 4 devices wired into the bridge so far. I'd have loved to run a Cat6 drop, but that would have required turning my walls into swiss cheese. Don't forget wireless has like 50% overhead... so that 2600Mbps backhaul is more like 1.3Gbps at the app layer best case. Besides, a "normal" bridge can only do like 1200Mbps best case raw, so it won't handle gigabit internet service. My current setup will. Yeah, it was a bit pricey , but I expect my ISP to roll out Docsis 3.1 in the first half of the year, so I'll be ready for that.

I have 175Mbps service right now and I can hit 175Mbps everywhere in my house. My dad has a N router and 230Mbps service and by the time it gets to the TV, its pulling a measly 30Mbps. Line of sight is more for beam forming. AC can go through walls.

Either way... most "sane" AC routers are going to be in the ~$150 price range... so this one was $50 more... but less interference from the neighbors and it'll handle gig service (and have much faster LAN operations, if you say have a NAS drive or are copying large files or something like that ).


----------



## tylorert

James Long said:


> Wi-Fi is the CB radio of the 21st century.
> Everybody engineers their own radio for "just a little" more power and the whole band turns to junk.


I still have a CB!


----------



## CraigerM

Slice1900 you mentioned you think the DTV RVU app could be on other devices like AppleTV and Roku. Do you think they would also be able to do the DTV RVU app for Windows 10, PS4 and the Xbox One?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

tylorert said:


> I still have a CB!


Breaker 1-9, you got a copy on me, come on..........


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> Slice1900 you mentioned you think the DTV RVU app could be on other devices like AppleTV and Roku. Do you think they would also be able to do the DTV RVU app for Windows 10, PS4 and the Xbox One?


I could be, not would be. They could put it on all those, but whether Directv will choose to allow it and whether Apple, Roku, Sony, Microsoft etc. will want to make the investment to do it is another matter.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> I could be, not would be. They could put it on all those, but whether Directv will choose to allow it and whether Apple, Roku, Sony, Microsoft etc. will want to make the investment to do it is another matter.


I think AT&T said they want you to be able to view DTV anywhere and on any device.


----------



## tylorert

TheRatPatrol said:


> Breaker 1-9, you got a copy on me, come on..........


Breaker 1-9 dis is rode dawgg, anyone out there...... Come on' back


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> I think AT&T said they want you to be able to view DTV anywhere and on any device.


Not with satellite, since it's not limited to"streams"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Not with satellite, since it's not limited to"streams"


Huh? The new iPhone app released a week or two ago lets you watch live TV anywhere. Not on every channel, but most. It's funny that I can watch live TV anywhere on any network (LAN I mean), but I can't watch stuff off my *own* playlist unless I cough up an extra $3/mo .


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Huh? The new iPhone app released a week or two ago lets you watch live TV anywhere. Not on every channel, but most. It's funny that I can watch live TV anywhere on any network (LAN I mean), but I can't watch stuff off my *own* playlist unless I cough up an extra $3/mo .


The reason why DIRECTV won't ever likely allow or will use streaming boxes to access their OTT services for DBS customers is because that will steal from them a receiver fee. The only way I see DIRECTV allowing these streamers is by way of RVU which of course carries the same monthly fee as a receiver.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> The reason why DIRECTV won't ever likely allow or will use streaming boxes to access their OTT services for DBS customers is because that will steal from them a receiver fee. The only way I see DIRECTV allowing these streamers is by way of RVU which of course carries the same monthly fee as a receiver.


They charge for using a RVU TV so I'm sure they'd charge for say an Apple TV using RVU the same way. I wasn't talking about Directv letting satellite customers access Directv Now streams for free, but getting RVU apps on third party devices.

The latest Apple TV and latest Roku have CPUs at least as fast as what's in a Hopper 3, and probably the same will be true with whatever Directv puts in the HS17 - let alone the clients. To the extent that a faster CPU on the clients helps, those boxes would be better than what Directv is providing, and since you own it you could activate and deactivate at will.

There's no reason someone would want to buy one instead of getting a free client from Directv, but if you already had a Roku, why wouldn't you want to use it? But it is unclear whether the reason this doesn't exist is because Directv doesn't want to do it, or Apple/Roku don't want to do it. They aren't members of the RVU Alliance, so not holding my breath, just wishing...


----------



## CraigerM

Sorry I forgot that what they meant be DTV on any device probably was more about streaming to it. I found out you can use Internet Explorer for DTV Now. I also found this ARRIS 4k DVR. Too bad DTV can't use this one. This one looks awesome. It looks like it does have a fast processor.

http://www.arris.com/globalassets/resources/data-sheets/ms6505.pdf

What devices and browsers can be used with DIRECTV NOW?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> Sorry I forgot that what they meant be DTV on any device probably was more about streaming to it. I found out you can use Internet Explorer for DTV Now. I also found this ARRIS 4k DVR. Too bad DTV can't use this one. This one looks awesome. It looks like it does have a fast processor.
> 
> http://www.arris.com/globalassets/resources/data-sheets/ms6505.pdf
> 
> What devices and browsers can be used with DIRECTV NOW?


That thing has specs like a computer


----------



## CraigerM

Sorry I forgot to add in my last post that AT&T has stopped ordering boxes from ARRIS. I can see why since DTV has their own engineering dept. Maybe DTV should base their next servers off of that ARRIS one?


----------



## slice1900

tylorert said:


> That thing has specs like a computer


No it doesn't. "DMIPS" is a pretty useless measure, but its about half what the Hopper 3 has, so maybe it is dual core instead of quad which really doesn't matter but like the Hopper 3 probably has outdated A15 cores (Hopper 3 is 1.4 GHz quad core A15 - high end on an Android phone in 2012) Comparable to a good PC from 2002.


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> Sorry I forgot to add in my last post that AT&T has stopped ordering boxes from ARRIS. I can see why since DTV has their own engineering dept. Maybe DTV should base their next servers off of that ARRIS one?


The HS17 is from Humax. Dunno how much DirecTV had to do with engineering it.


----------



## P Smith

CraigerM said:


> ARRIS 4k DVR


the box is not selling yet ... nor a price set for it


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> The HS17 is from Humax. Dunno how much DirecTV had to do with engineering it.


The HS17-100 is from Technicolor, the HS17-500 is from Humax. You don't think Directv just takes a product each already has off the shelf and puts an AT&T logo and the Directv name on it, do you?

Directv probably doesn't have much to do with engineering the boxes these days, but they certainly have everything to do with setting the specs for what it will do, and the parts that will be used in it.


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> and the parts that will be used in it


I'm doubt in this as seen in same model from diff mfg different chips ... specs (include APG, smart card, etc), FW libs, outputs ...


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> The HS17-100 is from Technicolor, the HS17-500 is from Humax. You don't think Directv just takes a product each already has off the shelf and puts an AT&T logo and the Directv name on it, do you?
> 
> Directv probably doesn't have much to do with engineering the boxes these days, but they certainly have everything to do with setting the specs for what it will do, and the parts that will be used in it.


Pretty much. I work in software engineering and my company likes to outsource everything to india. The last project I headed up, I pretty much said "Here is an existing project. Take the source code and modify it to do this new stuff". That's it. I didn't tell them how to do it, what tech to use, how to structure the code, how to structure data, etc. Nothing. They biggest project we have was all written by a 3rd party consulting firm and now we (well, not me) are just fixing bugs in it with a couple of jr engineers.

I'm pretty sure DirecTV US had nothing to do with designing any of the boards, picking components, etc. Pretty much all they said was "Let's pull an Apple and duct tape over the HDMI output (headphone jack removal reference) on the server" .


----------



## tylorert

SledgeHammer said:


> Pretty much. I work in software engineering and my company likes to outsource everything to india. The last project I headed up, I pretty much said "Here is an existing project. Take the source code and modify it to do this new stuff". That's it. I didn't tell them how to do it, what tech to use, how to structure the code, how to structure data, etc. Nothing. They biggest project we have was all written by a 3rd party consulting firm and now we (well, not me) are just fixing bugs in it with a couple of jr engineers.
> 
> I'm pretty sure DirecTV US had nothing to do with designing any of the boards, picking components, etc. Pretty much all they said was "Let's pull an Apple and duct tape over the HDMI output (headphone jack removal reference) on the server" .


Thats them


----------



## CraigerM

I forgot that Tivo is making a headless DVR. Also if the HS17-500 is from Humax then wouldn't be that headless one shown on their web site? It looks just like an HR-54.

TiVo's new network DVR just passed through the FCC

Home Gateway | HUMAX-Americas


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> I forgot that Tivo is making a headless DVR. Also if the HS17-500 is from Humax then wouldn't be that headless one shown on their web site? It looks just like an HR-54.
> 
> TiVo's new network DVR just passed through the FCC
> 
> Home Gateway | HUMAX-Americas


hmmm? I wonder if apple will leak to photos?


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> I'm doubt in this as seen in same model from diff mfg different chips ... specs (include APG, smart card, etc), FW libs, outputs ...


Sorry, wasn't implying that they micromanage down to the detail of use part #XYZ, but they will specify for instance that it needs to have an 8 tuners capable of DSS, DVB-S2 and FSK, that it has an IEC plug for 12v DC input, x amount of RAM, x TB of disk, etc. I'll bet they do spec a particular SoC, because if one OEM used MIPS and the other ARM, or one had hardware acceleration for graphics and the other didn't handling firmware updates would be a lot more hassle than otherwise!


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Sorry, wasn't implying that they micromanage down to the detail of use part #XYZ, but they will specify for instance that it needs to have an 8 tuners capable of DSS, DVB-S2 and FSK, that it has an IEC plug for 12v DC input, x amount of RAM, x TB of disk, etc. I'll bet they do spec a particular SoC, because if one OEM used MIPS and the other ARM, or one had hardware acceleration for graphics and the other didn't handling firmware updates would be a lot more hassle than otherwise!


Remember the good old days when DirecTV let everybody make boxes and they all had different feature sets and the mfgrs competed to make the better box? Remember the good old days when they let Tivo make DVRs? Ahh... the good ol' days.


----------



## CraigerM

One thing I was thinking is like I said before is what if they let you use Ethernet from the headless server going to the RVU TV? I don't think their would be that much of a difference with the current one, especially if it looks like the HR-54. You could easily swap out your current Genie Server for the headless one. Its just that you wouldn't need an HDMI cable anymore. The Headless Server could act like the Deca adapter you would need for an RVU TV. The only thing might be HD PQ using Ethernet instead of an HDMI cable and if you could only get the new guide with the Headless Server? However I wonder if they could design it to look like a modem or one of those personal home cloud media servers?


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> Remember the good old days when DirecTV let everybody make boxes and they all had different feature sets and the mfgrs competed to make the better box? Remember the good old days when they let Tivo make DVRs? Ahh... the good ol' days.


No no no.... ultimate tv. 

That was the second best DVR I've ever used. Replaytv sadly will likely always be the best, no one gets how to copy how brilliant that one was. But I have to hand it to Microsoft. That ultimatetv was truly a great machine and beat the heck out of any TiVo that's ever been on DIRECTV.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> No no no.... ultimate tv.
> 
> That was the second best DVR I've ever used. Replaytv sadly will likely always be the best, no one gets how to copy how brilliant that one was. But I have to hand it to Microsoft. That ultimatetv was truly a great machine and beat the heck out of any TiVo that's ever been on DIRECTV.


When the Sony SAT-T60 first came out, nobody even knew what Tivo and DVRs could do. The fact that it integrated DirecTV AND Tivo was a game changer. Everybody who I demoed it for ran out and got one the next day lol.

Little useless trivia tidbit... Monica & Rachael had a SAT-T60 in their apartment in Friends. Or at least something that looked amazing similiar.


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> When the Sony SAT-T60 first came out, nobody even knew what Tivo and DVRs could do. The fact that it integrated DirecTV AND Tivo was a game changer. Everybody who I demoed it for ran out and got one the next day lol.
> 
> Little useless trivia tidbit... Monica & Rachael had a SAT-T60 in their apartment in Friends. Or at least something that looked amazing similiar.


You mean this one? 

http://cdn.avsforum.com/f/f5/800x600px-LL-f5e43586_B00006I5TW-41KE9AEDJ8L.jpeg


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> You mean this one?
> 
> http://cdn.avsforum.com/f/f5/800x600px-LL-f5e43586_B00006I5TW-41KE9AEDJ8L.jpeg


Yup . I loved that thing. Then we moved up to the HR10-250 before DirecTV shut off the MPEG2 HD channels. By then DVRs were more common.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

inkahauts said:


> No no no.... ultimate tv.
> 
> That was the second best DVR I've ever used. Replaytv sadly will likely always be the best, no one gets how to copy how brilliant that one was. But I have to hand it to Microsoft. That ultimatetv was truly a great machine and beat the heck out of any TiVo that's ever been on DIRECTV.


YES! And it had a PIP button!


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> One thing I was thinking is like I said before is what if they let you use Ethernet from the headless server going to the RVU TV?


They "let" you do that already, and it works, they just don't support it.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> When the Sony SAT-T60 first came out, nobody even knew what Tivo and DVRs could do. The fact that it integrated DirecTV AND Tivo was a game changer. Everybody who I demoed it for ran out and got one the next day lol.
> 
> Little useless trivia tidbit... Monica & Rachael had a SAT-T60 in their apartment in Friends. Or at least something that looked amazing similiar.


Yeah...

Replaytv hit the market first. Then TiVo. Then TiVo had the first dtv intergraded one. And when it first shipped was only one tuner. Took a while for the software update so it could do two tuners. Shortly there after ultimate tv showed up. Sadly the best marketed (TiVo) won over the better products (replay and ultimatetv) but all three of those where extremely important to changing the way we record tv. 

Yeah they did have that. Also saw some other DIRECTV receivers I believe in Joey and chandlers.


----------



## lzhj9k

Perhaps some information on the new HS17
Found on the Internet...

R&D Wireless Cable/Telco Gateway Development: 


Technicolor TC8305, TC8717, HS17and VBNT-T are the next generation Cable/Telco modem platform providing High Throughput. These modems with Dual band concurrent high power Wi-Fi 802.11n 2.4GHz and 802.11ac 5GHz (3x3) / (4x4) 

VBNT-T: 
DSL Dual Band Gateway Running Opentwrt Linux 
Broadcom SoC BCM 

Hardware: 
BCM63138 as main Soc 
BCM43602 as the 2.4Ghz wifi chip 
Quantenna BBIC4 as 5GHz wifi Access point SoC 

Responsiblity: 
• Adding new features to support WiFi 
• Perform Requirement analysis and GAP analysis 
• Bug fixing and customization(Development) 
• Platfrom team support for enabling hardware bring up.(Development) 
• Team member Agile team 

HS17: 


HS17 is Direct TV Setup box with 16 tuners and router Gateway for IPTV running Embedded Linux. 
This project was for Technicolor Hardware production house. Technicolor is the primary hardware 
Vendor for the Direct TV. 

Hardware: 
BCM97366 as the main SoC 
BCM43566 as the usb 2.4GHz wifi client chip 
Quantenna BBIC4 as 5GHz wifi Access point SoC 

Responsiblity: 
• Wifi Bring-up 
• Writing code and scripts for test application for Hardware validation. 
• Quantenna Video Bridge Manufacturing software maintenance 
• Writing script for Hardware verification for WIFI testing and Calibration. 
• Support with Litepoint team to develop the BBIC6 WIFI calibration. 
• 802.11 Packet Analysis and debugging. (Wireshark, Airpcap, Airopeek) 
• Veriwave Testing (Veriwave) 
• Scrum master for wireless- Agile Team


----------



## Steve

inkahauts said:


> Replaytv sadly will likely always be the best, no one gets how to copy how brilliant that one was.


DirecTV has owned all the Replay patents since 2007, but I'm not sure they used them, unless it was under the hood. Among other things, Replay had an automatic commercial skip feature, similar to what Dish introduced circa 2012 and TiVo a couple of years ago.


----------



## inkahauts

Steve said:


> DirecTV has owned all the Replay patents since 2007, but I'm not sure they used them, unless it was under the hood. Among other things, Replay had an automatic commercial skip feature, similar to what Dish introduced circa 2012 and TiVo a couple of years ago.


Yeah they do...  which is even more frustrating for me personally since I know they could use the same kind of interface and features! I believe half the reason they bought that was so TiVo couldn't sue them. Replaytv and TiVo basically sued each other back in the day then came to a mutual agreement to leave each other be.


----------



## slice1900

lzhj9k said:


> HS17:
> 
> HS17 is Direct TV Setup box with 16 tuners and router Gateway for IPTV running Embedded Linux.
> This project was for Technicolor Hardware production house. Technicolor is the primary hardware
> Vendor for the Direct TV.
> 
> Hardware:
> BCM97366 as the main SoC


Interesting info. I couldn't find the "BCM97366" but really wasn't expecting to because I know Broadcom always uses four digits in the product numbers for chips. I guessed it was probably some sort of weird character set translation issue and looked up BCM7366 and I'm pretty sure that's what it must be using. Looks like pretty much the same CPU as the Hopper 3, except this one is dual core and the Hopper 3's is quad core. Though as with cell phones, the additional cores beyond two make very little difference.

I figured it would have 16 tuners, but I'm still betting it is advertised as a 7 tuner box to avoid customer confusion over how watching a 4K channel will eventually consume two SWM channels. The '7' in 'HS17' made me feel more confident I was on the right track with that.


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> I couldn't find the "BCM97366"


It's normal notation of devboard from Broadcom, the letter "9" is common addition for that purpose, always omitted in production chip's mark; so you're correct - the chip is BCM7366.


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> It's normal notation of devboard from Broadcom, the letter "9" is common addition for that purpose, always omitted in production chip's mark; so you're correct - the chip is BCM7366.


Good to know, thanks!


----------



## compnurd

What's sad is the BCM 7445 that the bolt is using looks to be twice as powerful as this


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> What's sad is the BCM 7445 that the bolt is using looks to be twice as powerful as this


The HS-17 from that description looks like it combines the Server, DSL Modem and Router all in one unit.

I also found info on that BCM 7445 it is a lot more powerful than the BCM 7366 it has a quad core processor.

Broadcom Unveils 4Kp60-capable BCM7445 SoC for Home Gateways (STBs)


----------



## compnurd

So here we go again. Let's say this thing is released in the spring. You will have another box out a good year before this with a CPU twice as fast I hope they look at upgrading this before it starts its life cycle


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> The HS-17 from that description looks like it combines the Server, DSL Modem and Router all in one unit.
> 
> I also found info on that BCM 7445 it is a lot more powerful than the BCM 7366 it has a quad core processor.


No. Please stop with this obsession over building a modem into it. It will not happen. That description about what that engineer worked on is very clearly about several devices, not one device with all those features.

I wouldn't worry about the difference between a dual core and quad core SoC. The HS17's SoC will have over 3x the CPU performance of the HR44/HR54 that most people thought was great when it replaced the HR34... Whether dual core or quad core, the outdated A15 core it is using is pretty inferior to what you get in a modern phone. The iPhone 7 is around 8-10x faster per core, so even quad core isn't going to help much if you want to feel like you have the latest and greatest technology in your shiny new HS17!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I'll be happy if it actually does have 16 tuners and sports bar mode. 

MysteryMan, maybe its time to get a 4KTV next year?


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> No. Please stop with this obsession over building a modem into it. It will not happen. That description about what that engineer worked on is very clearly about several devices, not one device with all those features.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the difference between a dual core and quad core SoC. The HS17's SoC will have over 3x the CPU performance of the HR44/HR54 that most people thought was great when it replaced the HR34... Whether dual core or quad core, the outdated A15 core it is using is pretty inferior to what you get in a modern phone. The iPhone 7 is around 8-10x faster per core, so even quad core isn't going to help much if you want to feel like you have the latest and greatest technology in your shiny new HS17!


I agree about the modem. I almost wonder if whoever that is is terming modem differently since the next text is about wireless capabilities.

On the CPU I think it is a problem. If they are looking at a 5-6 year lifecycle for this. Starting off with a CPU that is already out of date is a problem.


----------



## James Long

Isn't it becoming normal that the first two years of a 5-6 year lifecycle are spent in development ... then the product is released and they start working on the next new thing.

If a new chip is introduced during the development cycle designers have to figure out if they should start over (and how much development time would be lost and deployment delay starting over would add) or push ahead with "slightly out of date" hardware that is still better than the current generation.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> No. Please stop with this obsession over building a modem into it. It will not happen. That description about what that engineer worked on is very clearly about several devices, not one device with all those features.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the difference between a dual core and quad core SoC. The HS17's SoC will have over 3x the CPU performance of the HR44/HR54 that most people thought was great when it replaced the HR34... Whether dual core or quad core, the outdated A15 core it is using is pretty inferior to what you get in a modern phone. The iPhone 7 is around 8-10x faster per core, so even quad core isn't going to help much if you want to feel like you have the latest and greatest technology in your shiny new HS17!


Sorry, I guess I am thinking that because AT&T said they aren't ordering anymore ARRIS equipment. I thought that also meant modems. If so wouldn't they have to order modems from some other company or could DTV build their own? I also do like having them separate because if the all in one goes down, everything goes out. Sorry, not wanting to repeat myself Google Fiber TV in 2014 combined their DVR and Modem into one box in 2014.


----------



## James Long

DIRECTV equipment doesn't need a modem. Obsessing over it whether it be external or internal is not productive. Connectivity to the home network should provide any Internet connectivity needed for set top box health reporting, PPV ordering and other apps and content that (today) is not satellite fed.

And no, I do not intend to trigger an obsession over "rain fade backup service". I doubt that will ever come to pass.


----------



## compnurd

James Long said:


> Isn't it becoming normal that the first two years of a 5-6 year lifecycle are spent in development ... then the product is released and they start working on the next new thing.
> 
> If a new chip is introduced during the development cycle designers have to figure out if they should start over (and how much development time would be lost and deployment delay starting over would add) or push ahead with "slightly out of date" hardware that is still better than the current generation.


Yes but I guess from the stand point I am looking at it from is Broadcom obviously has more powerful chips.


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> DIRECTV equipment doesn't need a modem. Obsessing over it whether it be external or internal is not productive. Connectivity to the home network should provide any Internet connectivity needed for set top box health reporting, PPV ordering and other apps and content that (today) is not satellite fed.
> 
> And no, I do not intend to trigger an obsession over "rain fade backup service". I doubt that will ever come to pass.


I think I am looking at this the wrong way. I am looking at from a hardware point of view when I should be looking at it from a software point of view. Would they be able design the software that runs both SatelliteTV and IPTV and not it having a modem built in?


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> Would they be able design the software that runs both SatelliteTV and IPTV and not it having a modem built in?


Yes. In a way they are already doing that with internet served On Demand content and apps.


----------



## inkahauts

James Long said:


> Yes. In a way they are already doing that with internet served On Demand content and apps.


In a way? Heck they flat out have been doing it for years ever since they launched streaming for the on demand. (It was download only upon initial launch)

And look at the CNN and espn stuff that's here and coming. That's also streaming. Which is basically what iptv is. It's all the same. We already have it.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> On the CPU I think it is a problem. If they are looking at a 5-6 year lifecycle for this. Starting off with a CPU that is already out of date is a problem.


Keep in mind these aren't CPUs, they are SoCs (system on a chip) that include a lot more than just CPU cores. The quad core one includes 4K decoding capability that a headless server won't use. Why pay for something you don't need?

Not running a local UI means you don't need as much CPU power, instead it will pass information to the clients which use their local CPUs to build the GUI. If you upgrade to a fancier GUI (I wonder how long before people here start whining about Directv needing a 4K GUI? ) it will mean more load on the clients, but will have very little effect on the server.

What will determine performance will be the performance of your client, and of the network from it to the HS17. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between dual or quad cores on the HS17. Heck, even that second core may be overkill for what it needs to do.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> Yes but I guess from the stand point I am looking at it from is Broadcom obviously has more powerful chips.


Just the one, with the same core at the same clock rate, just two more of them, plus other stuff Directv has no use for. They have 64 bit cores for other product lines, but not for their set top SoCs. The whole idea of a set top SoC is that they add functionality to it to handle tasks like encryption, transcoding, demodulating etc. so the CPU doesn't have to.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> Sorry, I guess I am thinking that because AT&T said they aren't ordering anymore ARRIS equipment. I thought that also meant modems. If so wouldn't they have to order modems from some other company or could DTV build their own? I also do like having them separate because if the all in one goes down, everything goes out. Sorry, not wanting to repeat myself Google Fiber TV in 2014 combined their DVR and Modem into one box in 2014.


They don't need more modems. Uverse has been losing customers for a while as they can't up their speeds without going to a newer DSL technology, while cable internet keeps getting faster. They probably have a warehouse full of returned modems already. If Uverse stays with ADSL2+ they can keep using those same modems for many more years, because that technology isn't changing. If they upgrade to VDSL2 or G.fast they'll need new modems someday, but who knows what their plans are, they may sell their copper like Verizon is doing so they can get out of the landline business and the declining revenue and additional regulation that entails.

Google fiber is ethernet, it doesn't need a modem. So no, Google didn't build a modem into their DVR. Plus 100% of Google Fiber TV customers have Google Fiber for internet, so building one box that serves as your bridge/router as well as handling TV makes sense. AT&T sells internet to less than 20% of their Directv customers, so it would be a waste of money building in something 80% of them can't use.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I think I am looking at this the wrong way. I am looking at from a hardware point of view when I should be looking at it from a software point of view. Would they be able design the software that runs both SatelliteTV and IPTV and not it having a modem built in?


Yes, this is what we've been trying to tell you for a while. Though Directv is providing any equipment for people who sign up for their IPTV product, Directv Now, you supply your own. So the HS17 doesn't have to be compatible with it, at least not any more than the Genie is (for VOD, which comes over the internet not via satellite)


----------



## P Smith

compnurd said:


> Yes but I guess from the stand point I am looking at it from is Broadcom obviously has more powerful chips.


I'm not sure if you've been in R&D of consumer's electronics (smartphones, TV, STB, etc), so I must explain to you one pitfall what no one can tell you here: a cost !
If a company would deliver a device with designed functionalities [say sat DVR] with a SoC cheaper then latest (in production !) - the BOM would have a cheap one for sure !


----------



## slice1900

FWIW, a little birdie told me the current plans are to release the HS17 in August 2017. I can't speak for the credibility of the birdie, but it claims to have that date in writing (though even if true, I'm sure plans can change)

Given the three month embargo on the FCC docs, I was kind of hoping for March....oh well.


----------



## P Smith

so, the -17 designator could be just an year of release ...


----------



## slice1900

I doubt it is a year of release, any more than the HR54 was released in 1954 

Probably just a meaningless product number, like the C31 or H25 or D12. Maybe it has something to do with the number of tuners (but I'd bet on 7 before 17 if that's the case) but they haven't ever had meaningful product numbers before so why start now?


----------



## James Long

There does not seem to be a DIRECTV numbering scheme that "17" fits in to. So for the moment "random" is a good enough explanation.


----------



## inkahauts

Actually DIRECTV does have a current naming format... 

h for Hi Definition. R for DVR. 

Then they had...

10 for first generation (hr10-250)

2x for second generation with the x being the version of that generation...

When they went to genie it was 3rd generation and four rooms. (Granted first gen genie) hence 34. That last number became rooms not generation of platforms. 

We now have 4 and 5 generation dvr that are genies and are listed as first gen genie, second gen genie and third gen genie on our accounts even..

Clients where c and 3 for matching 3rd generation and 1 room. So c31... c41 c51 etc...

The first generation Hi Definition units DVR or not where all Lumped in as first generation and came from 3rd parties. 2nd gen stuff is when DIRECTV began doing it all in house. It's important to note that because there where several generation of products for Hi Definition that came before the fist hr2x units.


----------



## James Long

So ... first generation seven rooms??? I suppose that would work.
(1st generation 7 tuners would also work.)

Where I get lost is when the numbers did not go up by a generation. Jumping back to the "first generation" for what could be considered a sixth or seventh generation receiver? I suppose.


----------



## Troch2002

slice1900 said:


> FWIW, a little birdie told me the current plans are to release the HS17 in August 2017. I can't speak for the credibility of the birdie.


According to AT&T at CES its Not...


----------



## SledgeHammer

Troch2002 said:


> According to AT&T at CES its Not...


At least according to Scott (via DirecTV @ CES), they ARE going to release a "HR64" or whatever they call it that can output 4K -- in a year+ . He also said he was told that the supposed HS17-100 may never see the light of day or just be commercial only -- maybe they are listening to all the bashing they got over that stupid design and went back to the drawing board?


----------



## slice1900

Has Directv ever got as far as doing FCC filings for new hardware and then not released it? I think not releasing it at this point would be odd, but I guess so would doing filings in late November for something that won't be released until August.

If it was design for commercial then it wouldn't have a hard drive. Yeah, private viewing businesses can have a DVR, but I can't see why they would target a model at such a niche market, unless there was a driveless version of it for public viewing.

I very much doubt "all the bashing" they got from a handful of people on the internet would cause them to change course. They aren't designing these products to satisfy outliers like Sledgehammer, they are designing them for the millions of ordinary customers who don't give a damn whether the box with a hard drive in it connects directly to their TV or not.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

SledgeHammer said:


> At least according to Scott (via DirecTV @ CES), they ARE going to release a "HR64" or whatever they call it that can output 4K -- in a year+ . He also said he was told that the supposed HS17-100 may never see the light of day or just be commercial only -- maybe they are listening to all the bashing they got over that stupid design and went back to the drawing board?


Another year for a 4K Genie while Dish has already has theirs out for a year?


----------



## P Smith

what you want from the time of changes in ATT with an acquisition of DTV ?


----------



## wmb

TheRatPatrol said:


> Another year for a 4K Genie while Dish has already has theirs out for a year?


Is there enough content for a 4K product, yet? They have what, one full time 4 K channel. Clients have done 4K for a while, fed from Genies.

Although, I'll offer this... The original HD-DVR, the HR10 was MPEG2, released back when D* only had 10 HD channels. Like a year later, the HR2x series were released, and only about 2 years later, MPEG2 HD was discontinued, basically turning HR10s into bricks. Lots of grief here from HR10 owners. I was never a TiVO person, but my recollection was the first gen TiVO D* DVR ended up with a similar fate. Ugly.

With what they have now, DirecTV can support 4k, hopefully in a way that can be upgraded through software should standards change (MPEG4 is still evolving). 4K is not widely distributed, only one current channel. One 4K channel will displace somewhere around 4 HD channels in terms of bandwidth. So, I wouldn't worry too much about DirecTV being behind in 4K, yet. I'd hate to see them put out a product that they obsolete in a few years.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Has Directv ever got as far as doing FCC filings for new hardware and then not released it? I think not releasing it at this point would be odd, but I guess so would doing filings in late November for something that won't be released until August.
> 
> If it was design for commercial then it wouldn't have a hard drive. Yeah, private viewing businesses can have a DVR, but I can't see why they would target a model at such a niche market, unless there was a driveless version of it for public viewing.
> 
> I very much doubt "all the bashing" they got from a handful of people on the internet would cause them to change course. They aren't designing these products to satisfy outliers like Sledgehammer, they are designing them for the millions of ordinary customers who don't give a damn whether the box with a hard drive in it connects directly to their TV or not.


*Shrug*. I didn't post that. Scott did. He is a reputable source of info. He was told at CES to not expect new hardware this year.

Didn't I see a post from you somewhere where you said you only had 1 TV? Thus you would be an outlier as well .

But seriously though... do you REALLY think a headless design makes sense for consumers? I think its a horrible idea. Yes, its cheaper to redesign / replace dumb clients then to redesign / replace servers, but its just not practical for MOST people. Not just me and you with single TVs. HD TVs are all but dead this year, so at some point soon every TV in your house is going to be 4K. One of them is going to have to have 2 boxes with a headless design. That's just silly. Not everybody has the room or dedicated wiring closests where they can stick it.

Also, its kinda naïve to think that a box designed in 2017 will be capable of delivering something new that comes out in 2020+ in a "non cobbled together" fashion, so they'd have to tweak / redesign the server anyways.

Also, don't forget field maintenance costs. If it costs them 10% less to make it headless, but 300% more to maintain in the field, its a poor design. CSRs today are so poorly trained, they need to do a truck roll for anything beyond "push the red button". With a headless setup, they'll have to do truck rolls waaayyyy more I think. Dunno if you noticed, but people tend to not like truck rolls . They are a pain.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> But seriously though... do you REALLY think a headless design makes sense for consumers? I think its a horrible idea. Yes, its cheaper to redesign / replace dumb clients then to redesign / replace servers, but its just not practical for MOST people. Not just me and you with single TVs. HD TVs are all but dead this year, so at some point soon every TV in your house is going to be 4K. One of them is going to have to have 2 boxes with a headless design. That's just silly. Not everybody has the room or dedicated wiring closests where they can stick it.
> 
> .


95% of folks subscribing to DIRECTV buy their service based on price and number of rooms. Equipment design is way low on their feature list as it provides the features they are looking for, like numbers of recordable tuners etc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> 95% of folks subscribing to DIRECTV buy their service based on price and number of rooms. Equipment design is way low on their feature list as it provides the features they are looking for, like numbers of recordable tuners etc.


Yes, initially. Then they start having glitches on the clients, or they plan on wall mounting the TV and not having any visible wires to keep the wife happy and the installer shows up and tells them that they need 2 boxes and a bunch of interconnects and the WAF nose dives.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Yes, initially. Then they start having glitches on the clients, or they plan on wall mounting the TV and not having any visible wires to keep the wife happy and the installer shows up and tells them that they need 2 boxes and a bunch of interconnects and the WAF nose dives.


Not really the case, most peoples set ups are far away from what you see on the magazines. Even those with mounted TVs!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> 95% of folks subscribing to DIRECTV buy their service based on price and number of rooms. Equipment design is way low on their feature list as it provides the features they are looking for, like numbers of recordable tuners etc.


Exactly! The people who are complaining here that Directv "needs to catch up with Dish" to serve the currently non-existent 4K market are not representative of the typical Directv or Dish customer. Even if the two are seen as acceptable in terms of the packages and pricing, the average person won't go with Dish because "they have 16 tuners and Directv only has 5" unless they truly need a lot of tuners. And most won't learn that the Hopper 3 outputs 4K directly while Directv's solution (at least for today, and in the future assuming it is the HS17) does not, until it gets installed in their house.

If all your TVs are wall mounted, you'll prefer the headless server, because a client can be made small enough to fit behind a wall mounted TV and won't cook from lack of air flow like a device with a hard drive would, or better yet wouldn't be needed at all if the TV is RVU. If the HS17 + client combo turns out to be roughly the same size as the Hopper 3 alone, you could put them both in the same spot if you wanted and can't say you don't have room for it. Obviously we don't know the HS17's size yet, but it uses a 2.5" hard drive like the Tivo Bolt, which they wouldn't do unless they cared about reducing its footprint.

The idea that "at some point soon all TVs in your house will be 4K" is ludicrous and shows a complete lack of understanding of the real world. There are many millions of people with SD TVs, and hardly anyone in the real world will buy a 4K TV to replace a working HD TV, except the kind of people who populate dbstalk and are worried about Directv falling behind because Dish has 16 tuners. Anyway, a headless server and regular DVR serve such "gotta have the latest of everything" households equally well.

It isn't even clear yet 4K won't be a total flop. It certainly isn't off to a good start, being completely ignored by all cable networks who have made no move toward even announcing a date when they will have a 4K channel, and on the broadcast side lacks a mandate for ATSC 3.0 support like the one that forced the ATSC transition (and given how HD quality has been compromised to create more subchannels, odds are good if they do transition to ATSC 3.0 they won't use the extra bandwidth & better compression to actually deliver 4K broadcasts anyway)

If Directv really isn't going to release any new 4K products this year and will stick with the HR54 until a new 4K DVR comes out later, I'd say that points to the likelihood we won't see any major 4K channels launching this year. Directv will be ready when it matters, and it doesn't so long as channels 104-106 are all there is, with less than one live event a week. Dish may have the hardware, but they don't have even that. And what will Dish do when they finally get the HDR standard worked out, or if 4Kp120 broadcasts happened? Hopper 4, I guess?


----------



## CraigerM

Slice1900 I was thinking that also that you could put the headless server and client box next to each other in an entertainment center, especially if it looks like the HR-54 or maybe it would be just a little bit smaller. The only reason I wouldn't like that is if the client box wouldn't have Ethernet and you would need a two-way splitter. Wouldn't you loose PQ using a two-way splitter? That's why I think they should make redesign the client box to work more with the HS-17 and add Ethernet and Wifi to it. Unless the RVU TV would be even better than the client box as far as speed and the HD PQ would still be the same not using HDMI?


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> Slice1900 I was thinking that also that you could put the headless server and client box next to each other in an entertainment center, especially if it looks like the HR-54 or maybe it would be just a little bit smaller. The only reason I wouldn't like that is if the client box wouldn't have Ethernet and you would need a two-way splitter. Wouldn't you loose PQ using a two-way splitter? That's why I think they should make redesign the client box to work more with the HS-17 and add Ethernet and Wifi to it. Unless the RVU TV would be even better than the client box as far as speed and the HD PQ would still be the same not using HDMI?


Why would you loose PQ using a splitter?? In this digital era PQ is the same wether your signal quality is 100 or 20.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

peds48 said:


> Why would you loose PQ using a splitter?? In this digital era PQ is the same wether your signal quality is 100 or 20.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Oh, thought you would loose HD PQ every time you split the signal just like in the old analog days.


----------



## peds48

Analog vs Digital = Apples to Oranges. Very different animals 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Exactly! The people who are complaining here that Directv "needs to catch up with Dish" to serve the currently non-existent 4K market are not representative of the typical Directv or Dish customer. Even if the two are seen as acceptable in terms of the packages and pricing, the average person won't go with Dish because "they have 16 tuners and Directv only has 5" unless they truly need a lot of tuners. And most won't learn that the Hopper 3 outputs 4K directly while Directv's solution (at least for today, and in the future assuming it is the HS17) does not, until it gets installed in their house.


I don't care about the number of tuners really. I sometimes need more then 2, but not enough to pay an extra cent for it. There are lots of posters on here that have lots of TVs and complain that you can't have more then one Genie on an account and that they have to resort to getting a bunch of HR24s. That being said, if I did have to pay extra for a 4K box, I'd rather it have 16 vs 5.



slice1900 said:


> If all your TVs are wall mounted, you'll prefer the headless server, because a client can be made small enough to fit behind a wall mounted TV and won't cook from lack of air flow like a device with a hard drive would, or better yet wouldn't be needed at all if the TV is RVU. If the HS17 + client combo turns out to be roughly the same size as the Hopper 3 alone, you could put them both in the same spot if you wanted and can't say you don't have room for it. Obviously we don't know the HS17's size yet, but it uses a 2.5" hard drive like the Tivo Bolt, which they wouldn't do unless they cared about reducing its footprint.


My TV isn't wall mounted, I just have a cramped entertainment center.



slice1900 said:


> The idea that "at some point soon all TVs in your house will be 4K" is ludicrous and shows a complete lack of understanding of the real world. There are many millions of people with SD TVs, and hardly anyone in the real world will buy a 4K TV to replace a working HD TV, except the kind of people who populate dbstalk and are worried about Directv falling behind because Dish has 16 tuners. Anyway, a headless server and regular DVR serve such "gotta have the latest of everything" households equally well.


Haha... I didn't say people were going to throw out working TVs. I said as these TVs (or the owners) expire, you'll have no choice but to buy 4K TVs since that'll be the only thing available. Right now, if I go to bestbuy.com, they have 23 720p TVs, 71 1080p TVs and 128 4K TVs. That number will skew even more towards 4K moving forward. And if you go and look at the 94 non 4K TVs they are actually selling, and exclude the outdoor sets which are special cases, the rest are all junky < $700 sets. Yes, I know not everybody can afford a 4K OLED , but for $700 or less, you can buy a 4K TV. Why would you buy a non 4K set today? You can buy a 4K set at BB at full retail for $300. Crutchfield is even more skewed towards 4K: 60 4K's and 10 1080p's and 2 720p's. It makes zero sense for anybody to buy a non 4K set these days, they are super cheap (unless you are after quality).

Besides, who cares about SD set owners? They haven't even spent a few hundred on a 1080P set, they obviously aren't investing in tech. People who actually buy the tech are the ones that matter. Nobody cares about a person who buys a TV every 30 years. You couldn't even give a SD or CRT TV away these days. Even goodwill doesn't want them.



slice1900 said:


> It isn't even clear yet 4K won't be a total flop. It certainly isn't off to a good start, being completely ignored by all cable networks who have made no move toward even announcing a date when they will have a 4K channel, and on the broadcast side lacks a mandate for ATSC 3.0 support like the one that forced the ATSC transition (and given how HD quality has been compromised to create more subchannels, odds are good if they do transition to ATSC 3.0 they won't use the extra bandwidth & better compression to actually deliver 4K broadcasts anyway)


4K isn't a flop and isn't going anywhere. 3D was a flop. Curved sets were a flop. Whether we have 4K content is irrelevant. They aren't going back to 1080p resolution sets. DirecTV doesn't care about SD either. Aren't they dropping SD in 2019? At least any MPEG2 versions. We will have 4K channels though. Yeah, not on the substations or a local in Wormlick, Montana or BF, Utah... but LA and NY? Count on it. They are just starting slow with the big stuff. I said on here in 2015 that the 2016 Superbowl would be available in 4K and people said I was nuts. Lo and behold it was available. They'll do the same thing they did with HD, it'll start out on the biggest primetime shows on the major networks and eventually trickle down to the viagra and cialis commercials.



slice1900 said:


> If Directv really isn't going to release any new 4K products this year and will stick with the HR54 until a new 4K DVR comes out later, I'd say that points to the likelihood we won't see any major 4K channels launching this year. Directv will be ready when it matters, and it doesn't so long as channels 104-106 are all there is, with less than one live event a week. Dish may have the hardware, but they don't have even that. And what will Dish do when they finally get the HDR standard worked out, or if 4Kp120 broadcasts happened? Hopper 4, I guess?


Well, there really isn't any reason to release a "HS17-100" or a "HR64" yet. The cobbled together solution works for the 3 channels they have now and it'll probably scale up to work with a bunch more since they have a bunch of bandwidth gathering dust. People aren't investing in the current solution because they know its cobbled together. HDR standards are worked out. HDR10 is the mainstream version, Dolby Vision is the premium version and HLG seems like its the european version or perhaps what broadcasters will use. It doesn't really matter, HDR10 and Dolby Vision both work on HDMI 2.0a. Dolby Vision doesn't even require any extra bandwidth since the metadata is embedded in the video signal. HLG should work on 2.0a as well.

I don't know if everybody will agree on a single HDR version since right now Netflix is a mix of HDR10 and DV, you wouldn't need a new box unless a standard needs a new version of HDMI.

You are saying 4K60 broadcasts are unlikely, but you are talking about 4K120? 

But lets talk about 4K120 since you brought it up... that requires HDMI 2.1 which was just announced yesterday, so you'd need to replace ALL your equipment with HDMI 2.1 / 4K120 equipment to get it to work (Genie, Genie Client, AVR and TV). Only if you had a headless server and a RVU TV would you possibly be able to support it... assuming your TV supported 4K120 in the first place.

P.S. You'll also need to replace all your HDMI cables for 4K120 since HDMI 2.1 requires new ultra high bandwidth cables (48Gbps vs 18Gbps).


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> I don't care about the number of tuners really. I sometimes need more then 2, but not enough to pay an extra cent for it. There are lots of posters on here that have lots of TVs and complain that you can't have more then one Genie on an account and that they have to resort to getting a bunch of HR24s. That being said, if I did have to pay extra for a 4K box, I'd rather it have 16 vs 5.
> 
> My TV isn't wall mounted, I just have a cramped entertainment center.
> 
> Haha... I didn't say people were going to throw out working TVs. I said as these TVs (or the owners) expire, you'll have no choice but to buy 4K TVs since that'll be the only thing available. Right now, if I go to bestbuy.com, they have 23 720p TVs, 71 1080p TVs and 128 4K TVs. That number will skew even more towards 4K moving forward. And if you go and look at the 94 non 4K TVs they are actually selling, and exclude the outdoor sets which are special cases, the rest are all junky < $700 sets. Yes, I know not everybody can afford a 4K OLED , but for $700 or less, you can buy a 4K TV. Why would you buy a non 4K set today? You can buy a 4K set at BB at full retail for $300. Crutchfield is even more skewed towards 4K: 60 4K's and 10 1080p's and 2 720p's. It makes zero sense for anybody to buy a non 4K set these days, they are super cheap (unless you are after quality).
> 
> Besides, who cares about SD set owners? They haven't even spent a few hundred on a 1080P set, they obviously aren't investing in tech. People who actually buy the tech are the ones that matter. Nobody cares about a person who buys a TV every 30 years. You couldn't even give a SD or CRT TV away these days. Even goodwill doesn't want them.
> 
> 4K isn't a flop and isn't going anywhere. 3D was a flop. Curved sets were a flop. Whether we have 4K content is irrelevant. They aren't going back to 1080p resolution sets. DirecTV doesn't care about SD either. Aren't they dropping SD in 2019? At least any MPEG2 versions. We will have 4K channels though. Yeah, not on the substations or a local in Wormlick, Montana or BF, Utah... but LA and NY? Count on it. They are just starting slow with the big stuff. I said on here in 2015 that the 2016 Superbowl would be available in 4K and people said I was nuts. Lo and behold it was available. They'll do the same thing they did with HD, it'll start out on the biggest primetime shows on the major networks and eventually trickle down to the viagra and cialis commercials.
> 
> Well, there really isn't any reason to release a "HS17-100" or a "HR64" yet. The cobbled together solution works for the 3 channels they have now and it'll probably scale up to work with a bunch more since they have a bunch of bandwidth gathering dust. People aren't investing in the current solution because they know its cobbled together. HDR standards are worked out. HDR10 is the mainstream version, Dolby Vision is the premium version and HLG seems like its the european version or perhaps what broadcasters will use. It doesn't really matter, HDR10 and Dolby Vision both work on HDMI 2.0a. Dolby Vision doesn't even require any extra bandwidth since the metadata is embedded in the video signal. HLG should work on 2.0a as well.
> 
> I don't know if everybody will agree on a single HDR version since right now Netflix is a mix of HDR10 and DV, you wouldn't need a new box unless a standard needs a new version of HDMI.
> 
> You are saying 4K60 broadcasts are unlikely, but you are talking about 4K120?
> 
> But lets talk about 4K120 since you brought it up... that requires HDMI 2.1 which was just announced yesterday, so you'd need to replace ALL your equipment with HDMI 2.1 / 4K120 equipment to get it to work (Genie, Genie Client, AVR and TV). Only if you had a headless server and a RVU TV would you possibly be able to support it... assuming your TV supported 4K120 in the first place.
> 
> P.S. You'll also need to replace all your HDMI cables for 4K120 since HDMI 2.1 requires new ultra high bandwidth cables (48Gbps vs 18Gbps).


One way of looking at the headless server would it matter if it outputted 4k over HDMI if you have an RVU TV? You would just have Ethernet or WIFI going to the RVU TV, especially if it looked like the HR-54. You could think of the headless server like having the DECA adapter. The only thing I would be concerned about is the HD PQ using the DTV App vs HDMI.


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> One way of looking at the headless server would it matter if it outputted 4k over HDMI if you have an RVU TV? You would just have Ethernet or WIFI going to the RVU TV, especially if it looked like the HR-54. You could think of the headless server like having the DECA adapter. The only thing I would be concerned about is the HD PQ using the DTV App vs HDMI.


Ethernet and WIFI don't have the bandwidth. Ethernet is 1Gbps, WiFi has way to many issues to build your whole system around. WiFi has about 50% overhead of the raw transfer rate just for error correction. Compare 1Gbps of ethernet to 18Gbps of HDMI 2.0x and the 48Gbps of HDMI 2.1. HDMI 2.1 has 48x the bandwidth of ethernet .

There is a new home networking standard coming "soon", but they are only bumping it up to 5Gbps max. There's also a new WiFi standard coming, I think supposedly up to 10Gbps... but again, after you take off the 50% overhead, you're down to 5Gbps.


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> Ethernet and WIFI don't have the bandwidth. Ethernet is 1Gbps, WiFi has way to many issues to build your whole system around. WiFi has about 50% overhead of the raw transfer rate just for error correction. Compare 1Gbps of ethernet to 18Gbps of HDMI 2.0x and the 48Gbps of HDMI 2.1. HDMI 2.1 has 48x the bandwidth of ethernet .
> 
> There is a new home networking standard coming "soon", but they are only bumping it up to 5Gbps max. There's also a new WiFi standard coming, I think supposedly up to 10Gbps... but again, after you take off the 50% overhead, you're down to 5Gbps.


What about the WIFI Clients that DTV has? This RVU Brochure has Wired and Wireless RVU.

http://rvualliance.org/sites/default/files/RVU Handout_final.pdf


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> What about the WIFI Clients that DTV has? This RVU Brochure has Wired and Wireless RVU.
> 
> http://rvualliance.org/sites/default/files/RVU Handout_final.pdf


Aren't the C41W's Wireless N?


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> Aren't the C41W's Wireless N?


It looks like they have a new wireless client the C61kW-700. That might be AC.

Existing Products | RVU Alliance


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> It looks like they have a new wireless client the C61kW-700. That might be AC.
> 
> Existing Products | RVU Alliance


Did that ever come out? AFAIK, the only wireless clients out now are the C41's. According to your link, a "C61K" was certified over 1 1/2 yrs ago... so that would be a good example for Slice about DirecTV building hardware and having it certified and then it never seeing the light of day . At some point, they were even building a PC dual tuner card (maybe like 5 yrs ago?)... that too was scrapped.


----------



## carl6

trh said:


> Besides, who cares about SD set owners? They haven't even spent a few hundred on a 1080P set, they obviously aren't investing in tech. People who actually buy the tech are the ones that matter. Nobody cares about a person who buys a TV every 30 years. You couldn't even give a SD or CRT TV away these days. Even goodwill doesn't want them.


DirecTV, Dish, and all of the cable companies care about SD set owners. Because if you subscribe to service, it doesn't matter what kind of TV you choose to display it on. I totally disagree that the "bleeding edge" buyers who are out there buying 4K today are the ones that matter. They are not. The ones that matter are the millions of subscribers who pay a monthly bill, regardless of what type of TV they display it on.


----------



## SledgeHammer

carl6 said:


> DirecTV, Dish, and all of the cable companies care about SD set owners. Because if you subscribe to service, it doesn't matter what kind of TV you choose to display it on. I totally disagree that the "bleeding edge" buyers who are out there buying 4K today are the ones that matter. They are not. The ones that matter are the millions of subscribers who pay a monthly bill, regardless of what type of TV they display it on.


I see... so why is DirecTV discontinuing all SD service in 2019? That is their official shutdown date. That's only 2 yrs away. Not only that, but starting in 2015, HD service became mandatory, you can't activate a new account with SD only anymore and haven't been able to for like 2 yrs now.

Also, keep in mind that the last standard def TV was made like 10 yrs ago. LOL.

Doesn't sound like they (or anyone else) cares much about SD to me.


----------



## James Long

SledgeHammer said:


> I see... so why is DirecTV discontinuing all SD service in 2019?


The receivers will still work with SD TVs ... and there will be SD channels (for channels without a HD feed).


----------



## carl6

SledgeHammer said:


> I see... so why is DirecTV discontinuing all SD service in 2019? That is their official shutdown date. That's only 2 yrs away. Not only that, but starting in 2015, HD service became mandatory, you can't activate a new account with SD only anymore and haven't been able to for like 2 yrs now.


Technically what DirecTV is stopping is mpeg2 distribution, which means all of the legacy SD receivers will stop working. As James Long notes, there will still be SD channels. However, it has been 100% economic decisions that have brought this to bear. The evolution from SD to HD to 4K has taken decades, literally. DirecTV stopped activating new SD accounts in 2015, so even from that point it is taking 4 years of normal attrition before they are pulling the plug on mpeg2. This very slow transition isn't because the consumer market is demanding it, it is because DirecTV strategic plans and economic projections needs it to happen. Without mandatory shut-off date, millions of SD only customers would remain active indefinitely.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Haha... I didn't say people were going to throw out working TVs. I said as these TVs (or the owners) expire, you'll have no choice but to buy 4K TVs since that'll be the only thing available. Right now, if I go to bestbuy.com, they have 23 720p TVs, 71 1080p TVs and 128 4K TVs. That number will skew even more towards 4K moving forward. And if you go and look at the 94 non 4K TVs they are actually selling, and exclude the outdoor sets which are special cases, the rest are all junky < $700 sets. Yes, I know not everybody can afford a 4K OLED , but for $700 or less, you can buy a 4K TV. Why would you buy a non 4K set today? You can buy a 4K set at BB at full retail for $300. Crutchfield is even more skewed towards 4K: 60 4K's and 10 1080p's and 2 720p's. It makes zero sense for anybody to buy a non 4K set these days, they are super cheap (unless you are after quality).
> 
> But lets talk about 4K120 since you brought it up... that requires HDMI 2.1 which was just announced yesterday, so you'd need to replace ALL your equipment with HDMI 2.1 / 4K120 equipment to get it to work (Genie, Genie Client, AVR and TV). Only if you had a headless server and a RVU TV would you possibly be able to support it... assuming your TV supported 4K120 in the first place.
> 
> P.S. You'll also need to replace all your HDMI cables for 4K120 since HDMI 2.1 requires new ultra high bandwidth cables (48Gbps vs 18Gbps).


As I keep saying, people buying 4K TVs does not make 4K a success. If by 2022 90% of the TVs you can buy are 8K will that make 8K a success? When I talk about 4K succeeding or not, I'm talking about people demanding and consuming native 4K content, not having higher resolution TVs that upscale lower resolution content. That's nice, but the more a person thinks their TV is doing a good job upscaling lower resolution content, the less room for improvement there is with native resolution content - and therefore the less chance he'll care whether he gets it or not. I've always said that 4K TVs will be the only TVs you can buy in a few years. That's not what makes 4K a success, at least not in my book. Would you consider HD be a success today if HD channels had never come, and we were all watching upscaled SD?

As for 4Kp120, you don't need HDMI 2.1 or 48G cables for that. 3840 (h) x 2160 (v) x 120 (fps) x 8 (bits per color) x 3 (colors) / 2 (4:2:0 not 4:4:4) * 1.25 (10/8b overhead) = 14.9 Gbps. I don't know if any of today's 4K TVs can handle 120 fps input, but that's not an HDMI 2.0 limitation. Since 120 fps 4K will be initially targeted for sports, no one is going to care about getting 10 bits per color (which would put you ever so slightly above the line) But given that there is almost no live 4K content, there will be HDMI 2.1 TVs available well before anyone thinks about broadcasting 4Kp120 so it doesn't matter.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Ethernet and WIFI don't have the bandwidth. Ethernet is 1Gbps, WiFi has way to many issues to build your whole system around. WiFi has about 50% overhead of the raw transfer rate just for error correction. Compare 1Gbps of ethernet to 18Gbps of HDMI 2.0x and the 48Gbps of HDMI 2.1. HDMI 2.1 has 48x the bandwidth of ethernet .
> 
> There is a new home networking standard coming "soon", but they are only bumping it up to 5Gbps max. There's also a new WiFi standard coming, I think supposedly up to 10Gbps... but again, after you take off the 50% overhead, you're down to 5Gbps.


RVU is broadcasting the MPEG compressed signal - 4K is about 30 Mbps. Gigabit ethernet is enough for 30 simultaneous 4K streams.


----------



## slice1900

carl6 said:


> Technically what DirecTV is stopping is mpeg2 distribution, which means all of the legacy SD receivers will stop working. As James Long notes, there will still be SD channels. However, it has been 100% economic decisions that have brought this to bear. The evolution from SD to HD to 4K has taken decades, literally. DirecTV stopped activating new SD accounts in 2015, so even from that point it is taking 4 years of normal attrition before they are pulling the plug on mpeg2. This very slow transition isn't because the consumer market is demanding it, it is because DirecTV strategic plans and economic projections needs it to happen. Without mandatory shut-off date, millions of SD only customers would remain active indefinitely.


I'm willing to bet all they do is shut down MPEG2, and they continue broadcasting SD channels from 101 - except now in MPEG4. Because that requires half the bandwidth MPEG2 does, they'll be able to bring over all the SD channels on 119 and 95, and still increase the quality significantly from the current overcompressed garbage they're forced to carry on 101 today.


----------



## longrider

slice1900 said:


> I'm willing to bet all they do is shut down MPEG2, and they continue broadcasting SD channels from 101 - except now in MPEG4. Because that requires half the bandwidth MPEG2 does, they'll be able to bring over all the SD channels on 119 and 95, and still increase the quality significantly from the current overcompressed garbage they're forced to carry on 101 today.


I disagree on this, why waste the bandwidth by duplicating transmissions at all? Since they will have to replace all the MPEG2 receivers anyway, give the SD customers HD receivers and let the receiver downrez it to 480i. Now they can move all the popular channels to 101/KU which will give slightly better rainfade resistance but more importantly it will resolve HD reception issues for the mobile market.


----------



## James Long

longrider said:


> I disagree on this, why waste the bandwidth by duplicating transmissions at all?


There may be some contractual issues that would require continued SD carriage. DISH's all MPEG4 Eastern Arc still has SD duplicates (although they shifted a lot of the duplicates to a lesser used satellite).

Other than carriage contracts that would require both feeds there could be issues for commercial accounts (including hotels and MDUs) that rely on a SD signal. While an HD receiver could be set up to output to SD, the actual SD feed from the network's receiver may be preferred.


----------



## inkahauts

I foresee them not duplicating any stations in SD and Hi Definition unless it's in a contract and that at the end of the contract that would stop, and since this is known about years in advance I think the number of stations with that kind of contract will be minuscule. 

I wouldn't be shocked if they moved d15 to 101 and lit up a lot of Hi Definition channels there and sold off the current 101 satelites... or at least all but one if they needed the youngest ones to move to 110.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> Did that ever come out? AFAIK, the only wireless clients out now are the C41's. According to your link, a "C61K" was certified over 1 1/2 yrs ago... so that would be a good example for Slice about DirecTV building hardware and having it certified and then it never seeing the light of day . At some point, they were even building a PC dual tuner card (maybe like 5 yrs ago?)... that too was scrapped.


The c41w is ac 5ghz as I recall... but I'll try and double check.


----------



## compnurd

Reading over on the other site there doesnt appear to be anything with regards to a new UI or hardware anytime soon


----------



## CraigerM

Could DTV just tweak the settings on the HD satellites so that they don't stay out longer in bad weather? What's the average time an HD channel stays out in bad weather?


----------



## texasbrit

They can't "tweak the settings". It's a basic physics problem. The frequency of the HD signals makes them more liable to be scattered by raindrops. It' a problem well known to satellite communications operators.


----------



## CraigerM

Not sure if this is reliable info but I found this on Reddit about the HS17.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/path%3D%252Fr%252FDirecTV%252Fcomments%252F5kvfcg%252F


----------



## CraigerM

texasbrit said:


> They can't "tweak the settings". It's a basic physics problem. The frequency of the HD signals makes them more liable to be scattered by raindrops. It' a problem well known to satellite communications operators.


Oh, I thought I remembered reading in another thread about DTV tweaking the settings during the heavy rain months then putting them back to normal after.


----------



## compnurd

Interesting considering at CES basically told by ATT that this HS17 may not see the light of day or be commercial only. There word is the next box is a year away


----------



## inkahauts

compnurd said:


> Interesting considering at CES basically told by ATT that this HS17 may not see the light of day or be commercial only. There word is the next box is a year away


I think one should consider the source before believing everything they read at the other site.


----------



## studechip

inkahauts said:


> I think one should consider the source before believing everything they read at the other site.


According to posts Scott made, he talked to Directv himself. Are you saying he isn't telling us what he was told?


----------



## compnurd

While I agree a lot coming from that site can speculation. I tend to agree with this since he was there with them And he has been the first lately with a lot of items Right now i tend to agree. They are a good 9-12 months before the next genie type product I think they honestly believe there content and mobile will keep people over a box. Which I don't agree with


----------



## slice1900

longrider said:


> I disagree on this, why waste the bandwidth by duplicating transmissions at all? Since they will have to replace all the MPEG2 receivers anyway, give the SD customers HD receivers and let the receiver downrez it to 480i. Now they can move all the popular channels to 101/KU which will give slightly better rainfade resistance but more importantly it will resolve HD reception issues for the mobile market.


I used to think that, but I changed my mind. Moving HD channels there would only help RVers' HD reception for whatever channels Directv chose to move to 101. The rest would still be expensive to receive in HD - but now you wouldn't be able to get them at ALL with a 101 only dish. I think people in RVs would rather have access to all channels in SD then half the channels in HD and have no way to watch the other half.

If they move D15 to 101 then I think they probably will move a bunch of HD channels there, but there doesn't seem to be much sign of them doing that. Or of them using D15 for anything at all yet, so who knows.


----------



## Troch2002

inkahauts said:


> I think one should consider the source before believing everything they read at the other site.


I say that every time I read you and Slices posts.


----------



## inkahauts

Troch2002 said:


> I say that every time I read you and Slices posts.


Haha!


----------



## CraigerM

I found this info on the HS17 at the WIFI Alliance site.


----------



## slice1900

Well confirms what I guessed after seeing the FCC docs, it is 4 way MIMO ac with beamforming.


----------



## MrWindows

James Long said:


> DIRECTV equipment doesn't need a modem. Obsessing over it whether it be external or internal is not productive. Connectivity to the home network should provide any Internet connectivity needed for set top box health reporting, PPV ordering and other apps and content that (today) is not satellite fed.
> 
> And no, I do not intend to trigger an obsession over "rain fade backup service". I doubt that will ever come to pass.


DirecTV doesn't need a modem. U-verse and Prism (CenturyLink's version of U-verse) do. It's conceivable that theye could be 'baking it in' for dual purpose.


----------



## tlarseth

From what I understand of the HS-17, it will start testing this year, and doesn't use a dish, it streams through the internet like Uverse did, but with a lot better compression. The clients with it will be wireless as well. Basically for a TV/Internet bundle, you get the HS-17 for your gateway and TV Server then wireless clients for all your TVs. Rumour has it, a 4K wireless client is in the works, possibly for this new system.

No I can not disclose my sources, but they are legit.


----------



## codespy

That doesn't bode well for some of my neighbors stuck with CenturyLink DSL with a max download speed of 3MB......


----------



## peds48

tlarseth said:


> From what I understand of the HS-17, it will start testing this year, and doesn't use a dish, it streams through the internet like Uverse did, but with a lot better compression. The clients with it will be wireless as well. Basically for a TV/Internet bundle, you get the HS-17 for your gateway and TV Server then wireless clients for all your TVs. Rumour has it, a 4K wireless client is in the works, possibly for this new system.
> 
> No I can not disclose my sources, but they are legit.


So this system is taking place of the U-verse current hardware. It just doesn't make any sense. So when a customer orders this new system and their ISP can't provide enough bandwidth what is DIRECTV going to say, talk to your ISP but keep paying us the bill.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Troch2002

peds48 said:


> So this system is taking place of the U-verse current hardware. It just doesn't make any sense. So when a customer orders this new system and their ISP can't provide enough bandwidth what is DIRECTV going to say, talk to your ISP but keep paying us the bill.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Directv does this now with their unreliable VOD.
Its your ISP , not us.


----------



## peds48

Troch2002 said:


> Directv does this now with their unreliable VOD.
> Its your ISP , not us.


That is totally different, VOD is part of the service on the other system would be the entire service.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

tlarseth said:


> From what I understand of the HS-17, it will start testing this year, and doesn't use a dish, it streams through the internet like Uverse did, but with a lot better compression. The clients with it will be wireless as well. Basically for a TV/Internet bundle, you get the HS-17 for your gateway and TV Server then wireless clients for all your TVs. Rumour has it, a 4K wireless client is in the works, possibly for this new system.
> 
> No I can not disclose my sources, but they are legit.


I don't buy it, not for a second. Directv already has a streaming product, Directv Now, and it doesn't require supplying hardware to the customer. Since not supplying hardware is basically the only savings streaming offers over satellite (maintaining the satellite fleet and launching new ones when they get old costs well under a buck per customer per month) there's no point to such a product existing.

There is no way Directv starts making and installing boxes for streaming customers.


----------



## compnurd

Yup I agree. This "source" is talking complete BS.


----------



## carl6

My experience over quite a few years with DirecTV with regard to "coming attractions" (new equipment) is, people who know don't talk, and people that talk don't know. Rumors are just that, rumors.


----------



## Laxguy

Yes, indeed, but love rumors! Sometimes good ideas come out of them. 

Got me thinking that today's receivers, with nice broadband (which I don't currently have), are very damn versatile. If your dish gets knocked out, you can always stream via the Net onto your HD TV via the DIRECTV® box. Sweet! Here, with no broadband, I am quite happy downloading great shows in HD to watch over the coming days. Re-booting Breaking Bad; The Wire; and The Sopranos.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Since not supplying hardware is basically the only savings streaming offers over satellite


What about all the hardware required to support streaming? A high-end physical web server can cost $50,000 each and one of those isn't going to support all the streaming customers. And that's not including all the storage requirements and internet bandwidth.

ExtremeTech posted an article about... ummm... non family sites  a few years back and all the related infrastructure requirements... interesting read (since they essentially deliver the same product -- streaming video):

Just how big are porn sites? - ExtremeTech


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> What about all the hardware required to support streaming? A high-end physical web server can cost $50,000 each and one of those isn't going to support all the streaming customers. And that's not including all the storage requirements and internet bandwidth.
> 
> ExtremeTech posted an article about... ummm... non family sites  a few years back and all the related infrastructure requirements... interesting read (since they essentially deliver the same product -- streaming video):
> 
> Just how big are porn sites? - ExtremeTech


Sure, it requires a ton of hardware to support millions of people streaming, but the per person cost to support it will be pretty small. Maybe it is larger than the per person per month cost I calculated recently for Directv's satellite fleet, but that's irrelevant since by far the biggest cost component for Directv's satellite solution is supplying/maintaining the hardware (though the $7 per month per receiver fee more than pays for it, of course)


----------



## Laxguy

Fascinating read, that one, and thanks, sledge.

Just how big are porn sites? - ExtremeTech


----------



## CraigerM

HS17 already in testing? This shows firmware updates for it.

DirecTV Firmware Watcher


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> HS17 already in testing? This shows firmware updates for it.
> 
> DirecTV Firmware Watcher


Think that has been there for awhile. Still questions on this may be a commercial product. Not residential


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> Think that has been there for awhile. Still questions on this may be a commercial product. Not residential


Ok, sorry. I guess they will go headless with commercial and still do headed for residential?


----------



## ROK5TAR

CraigerM said:


> Ok, sorry. I guess they will go headless with commercial and still do headed for residential?


Hs17 is for residential. Just did training on it


----------



## slice1900

Training on it already? That brings me back to thinking it may be out pretty soon - like in the next month or two - given that the FCC certification only asked for a three month embargo on the documents, when they have asked for six months on previous hardware that took longer to appear.


----------



## ROK5TAR

slice1900 said:


> Training on it already? That brings me back to thinking it may be out pretty soon - like in the next month or two - given that the FCC certification only asked for a three month embargo on the documents, when they have asked for six months on previous hardware that took longer to appear.


It's beta testing and only employees as far as I know are getting it.


----------



## P Smith

CraigerM said:


> HS17 already in testing? This shows firmware updates for it.
> 
> DirecTV Firmware Watcher


and size of it is ~35 MB while for HR54 is ~30 MB !


----------



## compnurd

Sorry. Not buying this training since at CES directv said this box if it sees the light of day would be a year away and they stated it may be a commercial only product. If it was that close to training or something else. One of our other trusted sources here would have said something either here or on the other site. I hope you have some pictures or something about this training material before putting this out


----------



## ROK5TAR

compnurd said:


> Sorry. Not buying this training since at CES directv said this box if it sees the light of day would be a year away and they stated it may be a commercial only product. If it was that close to training or something else. One of our other trusted sources here would have said something either here or on the other site. I hope you have some pictures or something about this training material before putting this out


You could have just asked instead of doubting me


----------



## P Smith

thanks for posting the page
is it only one ? how many total ?


----------



## ROK5TAR

P Smith said:


> thanks for posting the page
> is it only one ? how many total ?


There was about 3 pages front and back just explaining install connecting to clients, doing the setup process for the hs17, and troubleshooting. People that will be getting them are having them drop shipped this week.


----------



## Riverpilot

ROK5TAR said:


> There was about 3 pages front and back just explaining install connecting to clients, doing the setup process for the hs17, and troubleshooting. People that will be getting them are having them drop shipped this week.


Wireless? I certainly hope there's an option for wired connections.


----------



## CraigerM

So they are doing like one of the suggestions I thought of and having it look like one of those personal media home cloud servers. It looks cool, one thing I wish they would have used was Moca 2.0 instead of 1.1. Also wonder with this new server will now prefer a customer to use the RVU TV over the client boxes with that new app? Or will the client boxes still be better?


----------



## P Smith

are they normal customers or some sort of gamma group (eg guinea pigs) ?


----------



## ROK5TAR

Riverpilot said:


> Wireless? I certainly hope there's an option for wired connections.


Works with wired too. Basically it's a wired genie/wireless bridge in one. Where people now have


P Smith said:


> are they normal customers or some sort of gamma group (eg guinea pigs) ?


My understanding is ATT employees and some DIRECTV. I asked if I could get it they said they let me know


----------



## ROK5TAR

Riverpilot said:


> Wireless? I certainly hope there's an option for wired connections.


Works with wired clients also


----------



## ROK5TAR

CraigerM said:


> So they are doing like one of the suggestions I thought of and having it look like one of those personal media home cloud servers. It looks cool, one thing I wish they would have used was Moca 2.0 instead of 1.1. Also wonder with this new server will now prefer a customer to use the RVU TV over the client boxes with that new app? Or will the client boxes still be better?


That's exactly what it looks like now a server. Old clients use moca 1.1 so it's compatible for that. Which app are you referring to? If the one I was talking about it's just for techs to do setup for hs17. Basically the app shows what's happening on boot like you would see on tv when genie is booting up. Client boxes would be better I would think for less lag but I'll find out this week


----------



## P Smith

ROK5TAR said:


> if I could get it


hope you'll get it and will allow to post here


----------



## compnurd

Wow. I will eat crow. Scott on the other forum needs to eat some also since his sources at CES basically lied to him Would love to know if this has a different interface and the speed on it. Might convince me to get rid of my tivos I got till 2/3 to return them Timing would be interesting also as if this is a month away or several months away


----------



## P Smith

compnurd said:


> Wow. I will eat crow. Scott on the other forum needs to eat some also since his sources at CES basically lied to him Would love to know if this has a different interface and the speed on it. Might convince me to get rid of my tivos I got till 2/3 to return them Timing would be interesting also as if this is a month away or several months away


you are a member here to long enough to recognize a soul of that person who will do anything just to attract people to his site; deceptive liar and arrogant "boss" is best words for him


----------



## slice1900

Wow, thanks for the pic ROK5TAR!

It sure doesn't have a form factor like I would have expected - I hope when the commercial version without the hard drive eventually arrives it is in a more traditional / stackable format...

I must say 11 tuners is sure an odd number. Maybe they did that so two could work on a RB LNB? I know people have tested it to have only 21 tuners, but perhaps if you connect two of these it will release a 22nd tuner, since we know the chip it uses is capable of that.

I imagine many will be disappointed that it only supports two 4K streams - even if you had two of these it would only support four 4K TVs. I realize there won't be a lot of 4K programming for some time, but surely some people will want to watch the same 4K program on multiple TVs. Maybe the HS18 will address that limitation lol!

I guess if they are just being shipped to employee & CE testers this week it will be a while before they see the light of day. Maybe that August timeframe the "little birdie" told me won't be far off.


----------



## compnurd

P Smith said:


> you are a member here to long enough to recognize a soul of that person who will do anything just to attract people to his site; deceptive liar and arrogant "boss" is best words for him


I know. This just wasn't something I wouldn't see him lying about. Lie about its capabilities but not about it even existing. Even if he did lie just to maybe have the first exclusive. He still would look like an idiot then for saying his source told him it was not coming or a year away


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> So they are doing like one of the suggestions I thought of and having it look like one of those personal media home cloud servers. It looks cool, one thing I wish they would have used was Moca 2.0 instead of 1.1. Also wonder with this new server will now prefer a customer to use the RVU TV over the client boxes with that new app? Or will the client boxes still be better?


It does use MoCA 2.0 - did you see the bit about "Gen2 WVB", and showing how many clients can be MoCA 1.1?


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> It does use MoCA 2.0 - did you see the bit about "Gen2 WVB", and showing how many clients can be MoCA 1.1?


I didn't know that the Gen2 WVB has Moca 2.0.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> I know. This just wasn't something I wouldn't see him lying about. Lie about its capabilities but not about it even existing. Even if he did lie just to maybe have the first exclusive. He still would look like an idiot then for saying his source told him it was not coming or a year away


Calling him a liar is pretty strong. More likely he was misled by the people he talked to - either they were deliberately trying to mislead him, had outdated information, or weren't in the loop about the HS17. The presence of the HS17 doesn't guarantee they won't also release a native 4K DVR next year, though my money would be on a successor to the HS17 that supports 4K on all clients/recordings.

Actually, that's a good reason for 11 tuners - if you want to make a successor that supports 4K on all "tuners" it would need to grab 22 tuners, which is about the limit the LNB could supply. If they released one with more tuners today then the successor would be a "step back". In fact, I'll bet it will turn out the HS17 includes two 8 tuner chips, and four of the tuners are simply not used in it.

Still, the limitation seems odd, since the HS17 isn't decoding the h.265 video.


----------



## Drucifer

codespy said:


> That doesn't bode well for some of my neighbors *stuck with* CenturyLink DSL with a max download speed of 3MB......


Ditto w/Verizon DSL


----------



## James Long

That photo answers a lot of questions (including why the new access cards have a pop out SIM ... the HR17 will use a SIM card instead of a full size access card).

Eleven tuners, eight clients with seven simultaneous streaming/recording slots, two 4K streams/recording slots, up to 5 C51 or earlier connections.
2TB storage.

The form factor is interesting. Perhaps they are trying to make sure that at least one side stays open for airflow? Rectangular boxes tend to get jammed up against other equipment and flat rectangles end up in equipment stacks gathering heat.


----------



## slice1900

I think the form factor is more for the wifi beamforming antennas than for heat. I wouldn't think this thing would draw much power, seeing how it uses a laptop hard drive and doesn't have to decode any video. It should have less cooling requirement than current model Genies.

Actually the wireless itself is probably the biggest power draw. 802.11ac is not exactly power efficient in a 4 way MIMO config...


----------



## CraigerM

I wonder when or if they will update the RVU app to support wireless RVU and if so what the WIFI range will be?


----------



## Troch2002

compnurd said:


> I know. This just wasn't something I wouldn't see him lying about. Lie about its capabilities but not about it even existing. Even if he did lie just to maybe have the first exclusive. He still would look like an idiot then for saying his source told him it was not coming or a year away


Maybe someone should Tell him...


----------



## compnurd

Troch2002 said:


> Maybe someone should Tell him...


LOL i dont have an account over there to burst his bubble


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> Calling him a liar is pretty strong. More likely he was misled by the people he talked to - either they were deliberately trying to mislead him, had outdated information, or weren't in the loop about the HS17. The presence of the HS17 doesn't guarantee they won't also release a native 4K DVR next year, though my money would be on a successor to the HS17 that supports 4K on all clients/recordings.
> 
> Actually, that's a good reason for 11 tuners - if you want to make a successor that supports 4K on all "tuners" it would need to grab 22 tuners, which is about the limit the LNB could supply. If they released one with more tuners today then the successor would be a "step back". In fact, I'll bet it will turn out the HS17 includes two 8 tuner chips, and four of the tuners are simply not used in it.
> 
> Still, the limitation seems odd, since the HS17 isn't decoding the h.265 video.


Correct it was too strong


----------



## Christopher Gould

Maybe because it's the weekend but can someone explain the turner count to me?

It has 11 turners,
But you can only record/stream 7,
And 2 of those can be 4k?
This seem to add up to 9 turner if you use 4 turners for the 4k.
Would the other 2 just be able to record?

Or 
Is it 7 record/stream, 
Plus 2 4k record/stream,
This would be 11 turners but with only 8 clients not 9 clients

Eventually I'd like something like 5 clients with maybe 4 streaming at anyone time, this giving 6 or 7 extra turners for recording if one client was a 4k


----------



## carl6

*MODERATOR HAT ON*
Please do not disparage people. Regardless of why some information may or may not have been accurately posted (anywhere) is not justification to attack the source of that information. To accuse someone of lying when you have absolutely no information to establish that, is slander. This site does not allow users to slander one another.
*MODERATOR HAT OFF*


----------



## compnurd

carl6 said:


> *MODERATOR HAT ON*
> Please do not disparage people. Regardless of why some information may or may not have been accurately posted (anywhere) is not justification to attack the source of that information. To accuse someone of lying when you have absolutely no information to establish that, is slander. This site does not allow users to slander one another.
> *MODERATOR HAT OFF*


If you are going to go that route. Since you deleted my post. I am fairly certain I never accused him of lying. Simply stating there wouldn't be anything to gain either way if he was going to


----------



## slice1900

Christopher Gould said:


> Maybe because it's the weekend but can someone explain the turner count to me?
> 
> It has 11 turners,
> But you can only record/stream 7,
> And 2 of those can be 4k?
> This seem to add up to 9 turner if you use 4 turners for the 4k.
> Would the other 2 just be able to record?
> 
> Or
> Is it 7 record/stream,
> Plus 2 4k record/stream,
> This would be 11 turners but with only 8 clients not 9 clients
> 
> Eventually I'd like something like 5 clients with maybe 4 streaming at anyone time, this giving 6 or 7 extra turners for recording if one client was a 4k


The wording is confusing, but it is pre-release so things may change between now and introduction anyway. I wouldn't spend too much time trying to decode the language, it looks like it was badly written. The language would seem to indicate it acts like a 7 tuner box, and could never use more than 9 of the 11 tuner it grabs. Maybe it will support more 4K streams when it comes out, maybe it will grab fewer tuners when it comes out, maybe it will support more clients when it comes out. Even if the wording was perfectly clear things could change by the time you can order one.


----------



## veryoldschool

Since I can't confirm or deny any aspects of this topic, I can't correct errors being put forth.

From the current tone of this thread, it looks like taking a break is called for.

I'm going to close/lock this thread and should someone have something worth porting, PM me or another staff member to have it opened.

48 hours starting down


----------



## veryoldschool

With 4K using two tuners, _Tuner Count _may taken on new meaning.
If there are X [hardware] tuners, but only Y [software] recordings can be done simultaneously, is the correct answer X or Y?

We may not know the final answer until a major amount of 4K has gone live.

This may be why the latest LNBs have more than 13 channels.


----------



## slice1900

Yeah I've been wondering how they will handle that. I think it would be simplest for the typical consumer if they advertise DVRs as "X tuners" and include any 4K related overhead, so if they want it to be able to record X 4K programs at once it would need access to 2X SWM tuners (plus guide)

The installers can worry about the implementation detail of bonded transponders, but the typical end user shouldn't have to know or care about that stuff. I think it would be needlessly confusing.


----------



## compnurd

I wonder also if it is locking down tuners also just for recording. Since it says 11 plus one for network and then 8 clients. I wonder if it is holding 3 to not be tied up


----------



## SledgeHammer

Scott did comment on the PDF that rokstar posted. He indicated that his contact still says its going to be commercial only.

I dunno... to me, based on that pic, its not going to be practical for a lot of people. People have AV racks or entertainment centers which are designed for horizontal stacking, not "towers". I don't think I could fit that in my setup.


----------



## James Long

When I think of a commercial product I think of a different form factor ... usually a rack mount or something that can be mounted to a plywood wall in an equipment room. But we'll see.


----------



## CraigerM

I have been PM'ing rokstar and he says he is installing them for DTV employees and they are beta testing them now. He said if the employee would allow it he will post a pic of the HS17 of the install.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Yeah I've been wondering how they will handle that. I think it would be simplest for the typical consumer if they advertise DVRs as "X tuners" and include any 4K related overhead, so if they want it to be able to record X 4K programs at once it would need access to 2X SWM tuners (plus guide)
> 
> The installers can worry about the implementation detail of bonded transponders, but the typical end user shouldn't have to know or care about that stuff. I think it would be needlessly confusing.


Today the hr54 is a genie that can record or watch live up to five total combined channels at a time. That's how it is marketed.

The hr54 as we know has two additional tuners to deal with bonded transponders. So really seems to me that they already are marketing channels to customers and leaving installers to deal with swim channel/tuner counts.

Which yes is exactly what and how they need to do it. You don't explain stuff like this to customers. Techie people can find the info out from forums or installers or solid signals etc but there's no reason for DIRECTV to explain that stuff to customers.

I expect all future equipment to be marketed as channels (which technically they always have done anyway) regardless of how many swim tuners are in a unit.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Scott did comment on the PDF that rokstar posted. He indicated that his contact still says its going to be commercial only.
> 
> I dunno... to me, based on that pic, its not going to be practical for a lot of people. People have AV racks or entertainment centers which are designed for horizontal stacking, not "towers". I don't think I could fit that in my setup.


The HS17 being designed for commercial doesn't seem to make any sense on so many levels. Where would it go? Can't use it in bars/restaurants since it has a hard drive. Sure there are business/private viewing account types but places like doctor's offices aren't going to want a DVR. Can't be many businesses that have the need to record anything like seven things at once! Now I could see something like this in the hotel market - get RVU TVs and let guests choose to record a program to watch when they get back in the room. But then it definitely would not have wireless, or that non-rackable form factor. They'd also make it output to 13 clients to preserve the investment people made in 13 room loops using the DSWM13.

While you might not like the design for home use, it is clearly designed for that. In a commercial setting no one cares what a device looks like - it will be racked, or in a closet. It is designed to be functional, not look nifty (while opinions will certainly vary on how well they succeeded, it was obviously designed to be distinctive)

I think they've followed Tivo in making boxes that 1) have their own unique look making it less likely people would hide them away in a cabinet and 2) are deliberately difficult to stack, so they aren't failing due to the excessive heat output of other devices and don't have their wireless antennas compromised by things on top of them.


----------



## compnurd

I agree. This has unique home design like the bolt. Even looks like an inflated echo People can stick this in a central location like there router and it has a friendly look/dissipates heat well

That and the whole DVR with a 2TB hd does not make sense for a commercial settings


----------



## CraigerM

They only thing I don't like is that if you did place it in an entertainment center and took the client box instead of an RVU TV is you would need a two way splitter adding more cables. Would adding an Ethernet output to the client boxes be better then you wouldn't need a two-splitter?


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> I think they've followed Tivo in making boxes that 1) have their own unique look making it less likely people would hide them away in a cabinet and 2) are deliberately difficult to stack, so they aren't failing due to the excessive heat output of other devices and don't have their wireless antennas compromised by things on top of them.


1) I used to love my DirecTivos, but isn't Tivo pretty much dead? Not really a good example to follow 
2) *shrug*... just another strike against DirecTV for me. I have an HR24 stacked in tight quarters and its never failed. I did stick a little PC fan behind it, but I don't know if its doing that... I only did that because my old HR20 burned the front display of the device below and I had to replace it. I don't care about the wireless in the DVR. I wouldn't use it.

I was coming to terms with having to have 3 giant boxes, but if this is my only choice to get 4K with DirecTV, time to jump to the Hopper 3 (no pun intended) which also solves the 3 giant box problem.


----------



## compnurd

SledgeHammer said:


> 1) I used to love my DirecTivos, but isn't Tivo pretty much dead? Not really a good example to follow
> 2) *shrug*... just another strike against DirecTV for me. I have an HR24 stacked in tight quarters and its never failed. I did stick a little PC fan behind it, but I don't know if its doing that... I only did that because my old HR20 burned the front display of the device below and I had to replace it. I don't care about the wireless in the DVR. I wouldn't use it.
> 
> I was coming to terms with having to have 3 giant boxes, but if this is my only choice to get 4K with DirecTV, time to jump to the Hopper 3 (no pun intended) which also solves the 3 giant box problem.


Tivo is alive and very well.. That Bolt box is a speed demon


----------



## SledgeHammer

compnurd said:


> Tivo is alive and very well.. That Bolt box is a speed demon


I wouldn't call them "very well". Does any TV provider have a Tivo DVR? Do people actually use CableCard? I think my dad looked into CableCard with Adelphia / TimeWarner and couldn't even reach anybody who knew what a CableCard was. The Tivo that DirecTV THR22 or whatever, wasn't that a flop?

Oh well, either way, personally, I think this HS17-100 looks ugly and isn't a practical form factor for most people. Obviously it isn't going to bankrupt DirecTV, but just saying a lot of people are going to have to make a lot of compromises to use it where the Hopper 3 doesn't have many compromises and its still a better spec then the HS17-100.


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> I wouldn't call them "very well". Does any TV provider have a Tivo DVR? Do people actually use CableCard? I think my dad looked into CableCard with Adelphia / TimeWarner and couldn't even reach anybody who knew what a CableCard was. The Tivo that DirecTV THR22 or whatever, wasn't that a flop?
> 
> Oh well, either way, personally, I think this HS17-100 looks ugly and isn't a practical form factor for most people. Obviously it isn't going to bankrupt DirecTV, but just saying a lot of people are going to have to make a lot of compromises to use it where the Hopper 3 doesn't have many compromises and its still a better spec then the HS17-100.


The only thing I don't like about it is those air vents sticking out the side of it. I think they should have made it look more like this. No I am not saying combine it with this just look more like it. 

https://www.arris.com/globalassets/resources/data-sheets/5268ac.pdf


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> I wouldn't call them "very well". Does any TV provider have a Tivo DVR? Do people actually use CableCard? I think my dad looked into CableCard with Adelphia / TimeWarner and couldn't even reach anybody who knew what a CableCard was. The Tivo that DirecTV THR22 or whatever, wasn't that a flop?
> 
> Oh well, either way, personally, I think this HS17-100 looks ugly and isn't a practical form factor for most people. Obviously it isn't going to bankrupt DirecTV, but just saying a lot of people are going to have to make a lot of compromises to use it where the Hopper 3 doesn't have many compromises and its still a better spec then the HS17-100.


Tivo has over five million, or almost 10x more subscribers through cable companies (basically smaller ones who can't afford to develop their own platform like Comcast: US Operator business) than they do people who have cable cards. I think too few people even know you don't have to take what the cable company gives you, so they were never going to get anywhere without making the MSO deals.

I don't think most people will care what the HS17 looks like - or know, until the installer shows up. The kind of people who plan out their entertainment center setup will care, but when told it can go anywhere in the house and doesn't need to be next to a TV a lot of them will probably end up sitting next to a cable modem or next to an auxiliary TV like a guest room if they're using wireless and that's a good central location in their house.


----------



## compnurd

My cable company here uses Tivo... It is modified Pace Hardware which is basically the Roamio Line I think the last number they had was they are used on 18 of the Top 25 cable companies i think they are at or close to a million subs that are not included with there cable company deals


----------



## slice1900

Actually Tivo is over 5 million subscribers through MSO deals. They have around 600K traditional subscribers.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> but when told it can go anywhere in the house and doesn't need to be next to a TV a lot of them will probably end up sitting next to a cable modem or next to an auxiliary TV like a guest room if they're using wireless and that's a good central location in their house.


You're (probably) incorrectly assuming that people have an endless supply of home run coax outlets. Most people aren't going to tear open walls to run extra outlets. In some situations you aren't allowed to run coax on the outside of the house either. The current wireless clients are pretty flakey (according to a co-worker that has them) and isn't beamforming line of sight only? According to most reviews I've seen, even when it works, it doesn't do much... might add a few Mbps.

I agree with you that I'm in the minority of people who care what equipment looks like though .


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> They only thing I don't like is that if you did place it in an entertainment center and took the client box instead of an RVU TV is you would need a two way splitter adding more cables. Would adding an Ethernet output to the client boxes be better then you wouldn't need a two-splitter?


I think You really need to stop asking for Ethernet on client boxes. They have four generations of client boxes out now and not one has an Ethernet port. And that would cost more. It's just not coming. And honestly, there is no need for it either imho.


----------



## CraigerM

inkahauts said:


> I think You really need to stop asking for Ethernet on client boxes. They have four generations of client boxes out now and not one has an Ethernet port. And that would cost more. It's just not coming. And honestly, there is no need for it either imho.


I guess I didn't think it would be that expensive to add Ethernet to the client box? Would you would want two more coax cables and a two-way splitter vs one Ethernet cable? If the HS17 was placed in an entertainment cabinet next to the client box?


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> I wouldn't call them "very well". Does any TV provider have a Tivo DVR? Do people actually use CableCard? I think my dad looked into CableCard with Adelphia / TimeWarner and couldn't even reach anybody who knew what a CableCard was. The Tivo that DirecTV THR22 or whatever, wasn't that a flop?
> 
> Oh well, either way, personally, I think this HS17-100 looks ugly and isn't a practical form factor for most people. Obviously it isn't going to bankrupt DirecTV, but just saying a lot of people are going to have to make a lot of compromises to use it where the Hopper 3 doesn't have many compromises and its still a better spec then the HS17-100.


TiVo just got bought because their software is on some cable boxes. TiVo really isn't pushed by cable companies around here at all but other parts of the country they are.

DIRECTV TiVo sucks. Wouldn't shock me if in a couple years TiVo had a new relevant DIRECTV built TiVo software loaded box. Like the current DIRECTV TiVo.

I'm trying to add why you say current system takes three boxes. Hr54 and a client (if not RVU tv which frankly works really well on newer units and I think the whole software never updated is a red herring at this point since it's been almost a year since the c41 and c41w got software updates) is only two boxes... I swear you said before but I'm tired and can't recall.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> TiVo just got bought because their software is on some cable boxes. TiVo really isn't pushed by cable companies around here at all but other parts of the country they are.
> 
> DIRECTV TiVo sucks. Wouldn't shock me if in a couple years TiVo had a new relevant DIRECTV built TiVo software loaded box. Like the current DIRECTV TiVo.
> 
> I'm trying to add why you say current system takes three boxes. Hr54 and a client (if not RVU tv which frankly works really well on newer units and I think the whole software never updated is a red herring at this point since it's been almost a year since the c41 and c41w got software updates) is only two boxes... I swear you said before but I'm tired and can't recall.


I loved my SAT-T60 and HR10-250. I haven't seen the current Tivo software, so I couldn't say... doesn't the THR22 require a $12/mo Tivo sub? It sure as heck ain't worth that much.

As for the 3 big boxes... HR54 + C61K + AM21 vs. Hopper 3 + small OTA dongle. Just sayin' .


----------



## ROK5TAR

slice1900 said:


> Tivo has over five million, or almost 10x more subscribers through cable companies (basically smaller ones who can't afford to develop their own platform like Comcast: US Operator business) than they do people who have cable cards. I think too few people even know you don't have to take what the cable company gives you, so they were never going to get anywhere without making the MSO deals.
> 
> I don't think most people will care what the HS17 looks like - or know, until the installer shows up. The kind of people who plan out their entertainment center setup will care, but when told it can go anywhere in the house and doesn't need to be next to a TV a lot of them will probably end up sitting next to a cable modem or next to an auxiliary TV like a guest room if they're using wireless and that's a good central location in their house.


That's exactly where they want us to install it. Next to modem/router









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

ROK5TAR said:


> That's exactly where they want us to install it. Next to modem/router


Can you disable the wifi or does it run on some random frequency where it won't interfere with the router sitting right next to it? 2 5ghz routers wouldn't play nice if they are sitting right next to each other.

This all sounds really half baked and that DirecTV seems to think that everybody's life and equipment revolves around the DirecTV equipment and that people are cool with stringing countless RG6 cables everywhere, etc. and that everybody has multiple TVs and endless space for oddly shaped devices.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Can you disable the wifi or does it run on some random frequency where it won't interfere with the router sitting right next to it? 2 5ghz routers wouldn't play nice if they are sitting right next to each other.
> 
> This all sounds really half baked and that DirecTV seems to think that everybody's life and equipment revolves around the DirecTV equipment and that people are cool with stringing countless RG6 cables everywhere, etc. and that everybody has multiple TVs and endless space for oddly shaped devices.


Well I won't be surprised if this new server acts like its predecessor where if you connect an ethernet cable of if it detects an internet connection via DECA it will disable the wireless portion unless in this case you are using a wireless client in which case the tech must follow DIRECTV polices which instruct the tech to keep the server at least four feet away from the router/gateway.

Regarding the shape of DIRECTV receivers, let me just say that in the 10 plus years I have been doing this I can count in one hand where the equipment did not fit within the customer's set up, and all of those cases have to do with customer have had rack faceplates in front of the receivers which is a bad idea to begin with. All receivers should be in a rack shelf with no faceplate. DIRECTV equipment is designed to fit in 99% of customers homes.

Regarding stringing cables every where, it would seem to me that 20 millions plus subscribers would disagree with you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

Tell you what... They are not happy over there at the other site.


----------



## peds48

compnurd said:


> Tell you what... They are not happy over there at the other site.


And why would the other site matter? That site matters as much as this one, nothing. What matters are the facts. DIRECTV equipment is installed in 20 plus million homes. Whether is installed on top of the TV, inside an entertainment cabinet, underneath the hoarder's pile, etc customers will find a place for the box because at the end of the day of they want to do is watch TV.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Well I won't be surprised if this new server acts like its predecessor where if you connect an ethernet cable of if it detects an internet connection via DECA it will disable the wireless portion unless in this case you are using a wireless client in which case the tech must follow DIRECTV polices which instruct the tech to keep the server at least four feet away from the router/gateway.
> 
> Regarding the shape of DIRECTV receivers, let me just say that in the 10 plus years I have been doing this I can count in one hand where the equipment did not fit within the customer's set up, and all of those cases have to do with customer have had rack faceplates in front of the receivers which is a bad idea to begin with. All receivers should be in a rack shelf with no faceplate. DIRECTV equipment is designed to fit in 99% of customers homes.
> 
> Regarding stringing cables every where, it would seem to me that 20 millions plus subscribers would disagree with you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In the 10 plus years you've been doing this, they've also never gone off the rails with the receiver shape. It's always been stackable & rectangular. They specifically made the AM21 pizza box sized so its stackable. This is not stackable. I don't see the HS17 fitting in 99% of peoples homes with making them jump through hoops. Like moving everything around or running an extra RG6 to some closet or something. Also, the PDF says "PRE-beta". That's not even beta.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> In the 10 plus years you've been doing this, they've also never gone off the rails with the receiver shape. It's always been stackable & rectangular. They specifically made the AM21 pizza box sized so its stackable. This is not stackable. I don't see the HS17 fitting in 99% of peoples homes with making them jump through hoops. Like moving everything around or running an extra RG6 to some closet or something. Also, the PDF says "PRE-beta". That's not even beta.


Folks dont care about the shape, they WILL find a place. Heck, most folks here want an HR54 when ordering a Genie, most customers do not care if they get an HR34, until they turn it on, and the only reason for the complain is not because the HR34 is extremely huge, is because it does not work. Customers dont get DIRECTV because they found the perfect receiver size, they get it because DIRECTV has something they need specifically or because they are playing the switching game every two years.

Regarding cabling, again 20 million plus subs have found a way to get a cable to where ever it needed to go. If they are current DIRECTV subs is a straight swap. If they are switching from someone else, is a straight swap as well as most pay TV providers use coax to connect their receivers. If no coax is available then one will need to be run wether is for DIRECTV or their new pay TV provider that needs a coax cable.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

SledgeHammer said:


> Can you disable the wifi or does it run on some random frequency where it won't interfere with the router sitting right next to it? 2 5ghz routers wouldn't play nice if they are sitting right next to each other.
> 
> This all sounds really half baked and that DirecTV seems to think that everybody's life and equipment revolves around the DirecTV equipment and that people are cool with stringing countless RG6 cables everywhere, etc. and that everybody has multiple TVs and endless space for oddly shaped devices.


I believe rule is 4ft away from router. To get around that you'd have to use a wifi analyzer and make sure your router is on a diff channel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

peds48 said:


> Well I won't be surprised if this new server acts like its predecessor where if you connect an ethernet cable of if it detects an internet connection via DECA it will disable the wireless portion unless in this case you are using a wireless client in which case the tech must follow DIRECTV polices which instruct the tech to keep the server at least four feet away from the router/gateway.
> 
> Regarding the shape of DIRECTV receivers, let me just say that in the 10 plus years I have been doing this I can count in one hand where the equipment did not fit within the customer's set up, and all of those cases have to do with customer have had rack faceplates in front of the receivers which is a bad idea to begin with. All receivers should be in a rack shelf with no faceplate. DIRECTV equipment is designed to fit in 99% of customers homes.
> 
> Regarding stringing cables every where, it would seem to me that 20 millions plus subscribers would disagree with you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yea the wireless will not work if deca installed or Ethernet which is 2.5ghz. The 5ghz will only turn on if wireless clients are in system I believe. When I install one I'll use a wifi analyzer and see what happens

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

ROK5TAR said:


> I believe rule is 4ft away from router. To get around that you'd have to use a wifi analyzer and make sure your router is on a diff channel.


Better hope people don't have the new 160Mhz DFS routers (like I do)... they eat up a lot of channels. But even if you have a normal router... I don't believe you can have 2 routers that close to each other and not have issues.


----------



## compnurd

peds48 said:


> And why would the other site matter? That site matters as much as this one, nothing. What matters are the facts. DIRECTV equipment is installed in 20 plus million homes. Whether is installed on top of the TV, inside an entertainment cabinet, underneath the hoarder's pile, etc customers will find a place for the box because at the end of the day of they want to do is watch TV.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I mean as far as this information being out there.

I love the shape and think it will work perfect in 99% of installs


----------



## RAD

SledgeHammer said:


> This all sounds really half baked and that DirecTV seems to think that everybody's life and equipment revolves around the DirecTV equipment and that people are cool with stringing countless RG6 cables everywhere, etc. and that everybody has multiple TVs and endless space for oddly shaped devices.


I've got three wireless clients running in my home. All three show a wireless connection >400Mbps and work just fine. Maybe DIRECTV plans on not running countless coax cables everywhere. Run one coax to the dish from the HS17 and then if coax isn't available use the built in WVB for those clients.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> I loved my SAT-T60 and HR10-250. I haven't seen the current Tivo software, so I couldn't say... doesn't the THR22 require a $12/mo Tivo sub? It sure as heck ain't worth that much.
> 
> As for the 3 big boxes... HR54 + C61K + AM21 vs. Hopper 3 + small OTA dongle. Just sayin' .


Ok I forgot your am21. I just don't care enough about over the air to worry about the am21 even though I have one for every box. I may have to sell them though at $200 a pop if they are really getting that on eBay!

And yeah TiVo has its own fee on DIRECTV. It's dumb. But some people think it's worth it.


----------



## compnurd

inkahauts said:


> Ok I forgot your am21. I just don't care enough about over the air to worry about the am21 even though I have one for every box. I may have to sell them though at $200 a pop if they are really getting that on eBay!
> 
> And yeah TiVo has its own fee on DIRECTV. It's dumb. But some people think it's worth it.


I might if the software was the same as the current and using the newer hardware. Otherwise it is not very appealing


----------



## James Long

peds48 said:


> Regarding stringing cables every where, it would seem to me that 20 millions plus subscribers would disagree with you.


More than that. "Stringing cables every where" is the form factor for all cable and satellite provider. So 100 million?

With more wireless devices as clients DISH and DIRECTV are moving away from "stringing cable every where" ... but a dedicated cable network is the best way to get between client and server. A home Ethernet connection shared with other uses is not as good. Wireless has its own problems. People shouldn't underestimate the value of a dedicated cable network.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> I may have to sell them though at $200 a pop if they are really getting that on eBay!


If they look new and you include all the cables, yeah... the beat up / dirty ones are getting like $75ish. One guy has his up for $250 now original box + cables + manual, etc.


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> More than that. "Stringing cables every where" is the form factor for all cable and satellite provider. So 100 million?
> 
> With more wireless devices as clients DISH and DIRECTV are moving away from "stringing cable every where" ... but a dedicated cable network is the best way to get between client and server. A home Ethernet connection shared with other uses is not as good. Wireless has its own problems. People shouldn't underestimate the value of a dedicated cable network.


What about homes that have structured wiring? Wouldn't those have a good Ethernet connection that could be shared?


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> What about homes that have structured wiring? Wouldn't those have a good Ethernet connection that could be shared?


You wouldn't want DECA and your normal Ethernet traffic sharing the same network.


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> More than that. "Stringing cables every where" is the form factor for all cable and satellite provider. So 100 million?
> 
> With more wireless devices as clients DISH and DIRECTV are moving away from "stringing cable every where" ... but a dedicated cable network is the best way to get between client and server. A home Ethernet connection shared with other uses is not as good. Wireless has its own problems. People shouldn't underestimate the value of a dedicated cable network.


Sometimes you have association rules, or live in an apartment, or have to deal with WAF and you can't string cables. I could technically string cables everywhere, but I think it looks kinda tacky to have RG6 running all over the outside of the house, so I wouldn't do that.

Also, don't forget that 2017/2018 is going to bring up 5Gbps Ethernet over Cat5e. That will make sharing with DECA traffic more problematic. Assuming it takes off, of course... but I think at this point 1Gbps is "played out". Time to upgrade.


----------



## James Long

Sometimes one has NLOS and can't get satellite. When sometimes occurs one can fall back to lesser options.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> If they look new and you include all the cables, yeah... the beat up / dirty ones are getting like $75ish. One guy has his up for $250 now original box + cables + manual, etc.


Manual and cables? They didn't come with any!!!!


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Sometimes you have association rules, or live in an apartment, or have to deal with WAF and you can't string cables. .


so how "stringing" cable for DIRECTV is any different than stringing cable for other pay TV providers? Or is OK to string cable for your cable company but not for DIRECTV?

You keep bringing this up as if DIRECTV was the only service that requires any sort of cable.

But to get to your example, if you can't string any cabling due to whatever circumstance you want to imagine then you can't get any service and most likely rely on a set of rabbit ears.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> so how "stringing" cable for DIRECTV is any different than stringing cable for other pay TV providers? Or is OK to string cable for your cable company but not for DIRECTV?
> 
> You keep bringing this up as if DIRECTV was the only service that requires any sort of cable.


Its not different. Except for the fact that no other provider I can get would require me to string any cable. Cable company would just require me to remove the multi-switch in the attic and make a few patch cables up there to reconnect everything to the home run box. Going to Dish wouldn't require me to string any extra cables because it works the same way as DirecTV does now: you have a single line going down to the server and the DECA distributes over that. You don't have all this headless nonsense that you have to shove in some broom closet somewhere because it doesn't fit in a standard shelf.

DirecTVs solution would either require the splitter / 2 boxes solution or to randomly stick the HS17 in some other room where you can get a cable run to.

Ok, so lets say I have 3 bedrooms upstairs, each with one RG6 outlet. Where do I stick the HS17 now? All the outlets are used by the TVs.

Sorry, but you'll never convince me a headless server is a good idea for a general consumer. Especially an oddly shaped, vertical one.

And even if I wanted to stick it in a broom closet, I couldn't since I'm assuming it requires electricity.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Manual and cables? They didn't come with any!!!!


It came with the power cord pig tail / splitty thing & the usb cable and, yes, it does come with a manual. I have it in my AM21 box in my broom closet. The manual is 10 pages .

You need a manual for it, since, you know... nobody at DirecTV knows how to install one . That knowledge has been lost forever! .

EDIT: it also comes with a serial number sticker and a free packet of silica gel. I have both in my box .


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Its not different. Except for the fact that no other provider I can get would require me to string any cable. Cable company would just require me to remove the multi-switch in the attic and make a few patch cables up there to reconnect everything to the home run box. Going to Dish wouldn't require me to string any extra cables because it works the same way as DirecTV does now: you have a single line going down to the server and the DECA distributes over that. You don't have all this headless nonsense that you have to shove in some broom closet somewhere because it doesn't fit in a standard shelf.
> 
> DirecTVs solution would either require the splitter / 2 boxes solution or to randomly stick the HS17 in some other room where you can get a cable run to.
> 
> Ok, so lets say I have 3 bedrooms upstairs, each with one RG6 outlet. Where do I stick the HS17 now? All the outlets are used by the TVs.
> 
> Sorry, but you'll never convince me a headless server is a good idea for a general consumer. Especially an oddly shaped, vertical one.
> 
> And even if I wanted to stick it in a broom closet, I couldn't since I'm assuming it requires electricity.


Easy. It goes in of those bedrooms. But at any rate, DIRECTV is not forcing you to get the server. If you dont want it don't take it, if 10 years down the road that is the only box DIRECTV has, then subscribe to Dish. You are in very minute minority.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> And even if I wanted to stick it in a broom closet, I couldn't since I'm assuming it requires electricity.


BTW, have you noticed that on this thread you are the only one making a stint about the size or shape??? It makes you wonder....

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

SledgeHammer said:


> Its not different. Except for the fact that no other provider I can get would require me to string any cable. Cable company would just require me to remove the multi-switch in the attic and make a few patch cables up there to reconnect everything to the home run box. Going to Dish wouldn't require me to string any extra cables because it works the same way as DirecTV does now: you have a single line going down to the server and the DECA distributes over that. You don't have all this headless nonsense that you have to shove in some broom closet somewhere because it doesn't fit in a standard shelf.
> 
> DirecTVs solution would either require the splitter / 2 boxes solution or to randomly stick the HS17 in some other room where you can get a cable run to.
> 
> Ok, so lets say I have 3 bedrooms upstairs, each with one RG6 outlet. Where do I stick the HS17 now? All the outlets are used by the TVs.
> 
> Sorry, but you'll never convince me a headless server is a good idea for a general consumer. Especially an oddly shaped, vertical one.
> 
> And even if I wanted to stick it in a broom closet, I couldn't since I'm assuming it requires electricity.


It sounds like you would need one more cable (if any).

In a building that already has home run cables to a central point configuring for different services is easy. The problems come with buildings "wired for cable" where one feed from the distribution feeds multiple rooms - but DIRECTV's SWM helps in those situations.

With the client server model all of those home runs could be tied together with splitters. Worst case scenario you would need a run to the central location to wherever you place the headless server and a separate run to the satellite dish. (Unless it is like DISH where MoCA and the sixteen tuners ride on the same coax from their node to the Hopper 3.)

So ONE new cable. Not new cables to each room, just one. Put the HS by an existing outlet wherever it is convenient.
If the form factor of the HS doesn't fit in any of the locations where you have an outlet you may need a second cable. But that would only be if the clients and satellite signals cannot share a cable in the same way DISH allows clients and satellite signals to share a cable. Still not rewiring the whole house.


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> BTW, have you noticed that on this thread you are the only one making a stint about the size or shape??? It makes you wonder....


Makes you wonder what? That my entertainment center is built in to a media niche and has a limited size? Or that my available shelf height is 7 1/2"? Not everybody has a 20,000 sq ft house with dedicated server rooms and racks of equipment like you do . I'm guessing from the pic that its taller then 7 1/2" inches.


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> (Unless it is like DISH where MoCA and the sixteen tuners ride on the same coax from their node to the Hopper 3.)
> 
> But that would only be if the clients and satellite signals cannot share a cable in the same way DISH allows clients and satellite signals to share a cable. Still not rewiring the whole house.


Sorry, but that just sounds a whole lot better thought out for the real world to me then DirecTVs solutions so far. Then you throw in the 4K server that can run a TV, that's a normal AV form factor and a small OTA dongle. Sounds much more practical. Forget who has content or doesn't... I'm just speaking of the hardware setup and requirements here.


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Easy. It goes in of those bedrooms. But at any rate, DIRECTV is not forcing you to get the server. If you dont want it don't take it, if 10 years down the road that is the only box DIRECTV has, then subscribe to Dish. You are in very minute minority.


They are forcing us to take it. Sounds like its going to be the only box going forward.


----------



## James Long

I do not believe that we have enough information to prove that the installation will be any worse than DISH's Hopper 3. Or that DIRECTV will force customers to get a HS17 instead of a HR54 or other receiver. It sounds more like fear of the unknown fueled by more unknowns.


----------



## carl6

SledgeHammer said:


> They are forcing us to take it. Sounds like its going to be the only box going forward.


You are arguing that DirecTV is forcing us to take a product that has not even been publicly announced and made available to the public? Hardly so. Further, over decades now, DirecTV has introduced a variety of new products and has never dropped a product in direct relationship or response to the introduction of a new product. They phase products out over many years. I would not expect the HR44 and HR54 Genie series to go away anytime soon.

As to the physical design of the HS17 (from what limited information has been posted here), it seems to me it could go any of a great many places. Because it is "headless" and does not directly serve a television, it does not need to go anywhere near a television, including in any media center or cabinet. Will there be the rare customer who doesn't have a reasonable place to put an HS17? Probably. Are there other options? Yes, including the HR44 and HR54.

You are certainly welcome to not like this design, and certainly welcome to not accept one (should they actually become available at some future time). But to argue it is unacceptable period is not valid. Only that it is unacceptable to you personally. I actually think it looks kind of cool. Might like to have one someday.


----------



## SledgeHammer

carl6 said:


> Will there be the rare customer who doesn't have a reasonable place to put an HS17? Probably. Are there other options? Yes, including the HR44 and HR54.


Well, the HR44 isn't an option since that doesn't do 4K. The HR54 is pretty much a headless server if you want 4K. I didn't say the HS17 is "unacceptable period". I said the design (as we know it) seems impractical for the real world, for people who have one TV, for people who can't run extra coax for whatever reason, etc. To say the HS17 will work for 99% of people is a little optimistic IMO. So far, the device isn't even in beta yet, its in pre-beta... to DirecTV employees... they aren't going to beta it in the real world with real people, so they won't really know what the reaction will be.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, the HR44 isn't an option since that doesn't do 4K. The HR54 is pretty much a headless server if you want 4K. I didn't say the HS17 is "unacceptable period". I said the design (as we know it) seems impractical for the real world, for people who have one TV, for people who can't run extra coax for whatever reason, etc. To say the HS17 will work for 99% of people is a little optimistic IMO. So far, the device isn't even in beta yet, its in pre-beta... to DirecTV employees... they aren't going to beta it in the real world with real people, so they won't really know what the reaction will be.


It seems it is impractical to your real world. You don't need to run an extra coax. Not everyone's living room looks like those found on enthusiasts magazines, far from that. And if you think that because this is a pre beta that DIRECTV will change the design of this box you are living a dream. This betas are to squash bugs and to analyze the installation work flow.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carl6

SledgeHammer said:


> So far, the device isn't even in beta yet, its in pre-beta... to DirecTV employees... they aren't going to beta it in the real world with real people, so they won't really know what the reaction will be.


I suspect any device that has published installation instructions, and for which training is occurring for installers, is beyond "pre-beta". I agree with peds48, the indications are this product has progressed beyond any opportunity for design change.


----------



## compnurd

I love the design.. I can split my signal at my main TV and put this right behind it/plug it into the switch that is there.. There is actually many many locations in my home that i can practically install this with just splitting the coax right there


----------



## slice1900

Interesting that the installer instructions posted talk about adding a WVB if wireless reach is a problem, so they must have plans on doing a new MoCA 2.0 WVB. If reach isn't a problem, an all wireless install becomes quite practical. You can locate WVBs wherever you have coax.

I wonder how much they will encourage wireless installs? If the "Genie Air" branding makes it to the official roll out, maybe they intend to install wireless clients by default?


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Interesting that the installer instructions posted talk about adding a WVB if wireless reach is a problem, so they must have plans on doing a new MoCA 2.0 WVB. If reach isn't a problem, an all wireless install becomes quite practical. You can locate WVBs wherever you have coax.
> 
> I wonder how much they will encourage wireless installs? If the "Genie Air" branding makes it to the official roll out, maybe they intend to install wireless clients by default?


Hopefully they fix all the issues. My co-worker has wireless clients and he says they suck... frame drops, disconnects, audio drop outs, etc.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> Hopefully they fix all the issues. My co-worker has wireless clients and he says they suck... frame drops, disconnects, audio drop outs, etc.


I don't have those issues with my wireless. Which just proves wireless is situational and not for everyone. I wouldn't go wireless unless there is a real reason beyond just cause. Wired is better. And I doubt witless would be the default because that will still cost more than Wired.

I have a feeling all the major brand tvs will have RVU by next year in every tv they sell.. Sony lg Samsung that is. Which have it in most tvs now.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> And I doubt *witless* would be the default because that will still cost more than Wired.


Sorry, that typo made me LOL with my complaints about this design .


----------



## inkahauts




----------



## JosephB

so I'm diving into this thread a little late and have only seen the past few pages, not all 20, but, I think I've seen enough to comment

first, on the design, it seems pretty obvious that the design is due to the integrated wireless access point. This was a common complaint about the last model of Apple's Airport Extreme router for example. MIMO 802.11ac antennas have to go somewhere, and to have complete assurance to the beamforming characteristics, they can't be external movable antennas, they need to be enclosed and static

on top of that, this is obviously a step along the way to AT&T's "all in one" box. Before closing the DirecTV merger, they said long term they'd like a gateway that accepted satellite, internet of various flavors (meaning AT&T LTE, AT&T wireline broadband, or 3rd party broadband), and spit out DirecTV services. If you Google "DirecTV HS17" you'll find someone who has posted their resume to a job search site who apparently worked/works at Technicolor on this product. I won't link it because I'd hate to get the guy in trouble, but he specifically calls out that he worked on this model receiver and an interesting tidbit is that he says "IPTV gateway" in addition to DirecTV. 

As time marches on, it would be smart to rely less on what DirecTV "normally does" and how they think. AT&T will continue to increase their influence as things move forward and they are more integrated. For example, this could easily be a first step to a device that will morph (either by software or hardware revision) to be both a DVR server AND an internet router. 

And as to DirecTV's aversion to ever doing anything over ethernet, AT&T has no problem using ethernet in the home. Their technicians are trained on it and they use it on a regular basis for U-Verse IPTV and U-Verse internet installations. If you use this, or a future version, as the switch, there is no issue mixing "regular" traffic with TV traffic. They use Cat5/6 ethernet to bring gigabit internet connections into the house. 10 DirecTV streams at once wouldn't be a whole gigabit of traffic, and MoCA doesn't have more bandwidth than that anyway. 

This product doesn't seem like something pre-merger DirecTV would have done. IMO it has AT&T's fingerprints all over it, and in that context think about it as a very early step into the ultimate replacement of U-Verse TV with DirecTV.


----------



## ROK5TAR

We are already replacing uverse tv with DIRECTV since last year. Any remaining uverse cust are either still on discounts or paying full price. When they call about bill they are setting up DIRECTV installs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JosephB

ROK5TAR said:


> We are already replacing uverse tv with DIRECTV since last year. Any remaining uverse cust are either still on discounts or paying full price. When they call about bill they are setting up DIRECTV installs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can still order new U-Verse TV service. They are pushing DirecTV as hard as they can, and prefer to switch people, but it's not a requirement. I'm talking about the day that they force the switch and there is no such thing as U-Verse IPTV anymore. Not here yet but it's coming (and this box is a step in that process)


----------



## compnurd

JosephB said:


> so I'm diving into this thread a little late and have only seen the past few pages, not all 20, but, I think I've seen enough to comment
> 
> first, on the design, it seems pretty obvious that the design is due to the integrated wireless access point. This was a common complaint about the last model of Apple's Airport Extreme router for example. MIMO 802.11ac antennas have to go somewhere, and to have complete assurance to the beamforming characteristics, they can't be external movable antennas, they need to be enclosed and static
> 
> on top of that, this is obviously a step along the way to AT&T's "all in one" box. Before closing the DirecTV merger, they said long term they'd like a gateway that accepted satellite, internet of various flavors (meaning AT&T LTE, AT&T wireline broadband, or 3rd party broadband), and spit out DirecTV services. If you Google "DirecTV HS17" you'll find someone who has posted their resume to a job search site who apparently worked/works at Technicolor on this product. I won't link it because I'd hate to get the guy in trouble, but he specifically calls out that he worked on this model receiver and an interesting tidbit is that he says "IPTV gateway" in addition to DirecTV.
> 
> As time marches on, it would be smart to rely less on what DirecTV "normally does" and how they think. AT&T will continue to increase their influence as things move forward and they are more integrated. For example, this could easily be a first step to a device that will morph (either by software or hardware revision) to be both a DVR server AND an internet router.
> 
> And as to DirecTV's aversion to ever doing anything over ethernet, AT&T has no problem using ethernet in the home. Their technicians are trained on it and they use it on a regular basis for U-Verse IPTV and U-Verse internet installations. If you use this, or a future version, as the switch, there is no issue mixing "regular" traffic with TV traffic. They use Cat5/6 ethernet to bring gigabit internet connections into the house. 10 DirecTV streams at once wouldn't be a whole gigabit of traffic, and MoCA doesn't have more bandwidth than that anyway.
> 
> This product doesn't seem like something pre-merger DirecTV would have done. IMO it has AT&T's fingerprints all over it, and in that context think about it as a very early step into the ultimate replacement of U-Verse TV with DirecTV.


That resume was dissected a few pages back. Believe the conclusion was the inclusion of IPTV is not happening now I agree with others that this product was pre merger.


----------



## SledgeHammer

ROK5TAR said:


> We are already replacing uverse tv with DIRECTV since last year. Any remaining uverse cust are either still on discounts or paying full price. When they call about bill they are setting up DIRECTV installs.


So this whole thread has been about the HS17-100 server... what's going on with the clients? Are they just reusing the C61K clients? They'd need to update those to handle the new wi-fi, no?


----------



## ROK5TAR

SledgeHammer said:


> So this whole thread has been about the HS17-100 server... what's going on with the clients? Are they just reusing the C61K clients? They'd need to update those to handle the new wi-fi, no?


What new wifi? And c61k is 4K wired client

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

I wonder if the RVU TV's will add Wireless RVU to work with the HS17?


----------



## SledgeHammer

ROK5TAR said:


> What new wifi? And c61k is 4K wired client


They aren't going to have a wireless 4K client? Or a client that supports the beam forming? Clients have to support beam forming too to exchange location information with the server.


----------



## compnurd

SledgeHammer said:


> They aren't going to have a wireless 4K client? Or a client that supports the beam forming? Clients have to support beam forming too to exchange location information with the server.


That may further down the line If they even plan to have a 4K wireless client


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> They aren't going to have a wireless 4K client? Or a client that supports the beam forming? Clients have to support beam forming too to exchange location information with the server.


Doesn't beamforming work with all wireless devices in general?


----------



## inkahauts

compnurd said:


> That resume was dissected a few pages back. Believe the conclusion was the inclusion of IPTV is not happening now I agree with others that this product was pre merger.


All genies and all hr2x DVRs are iptv capable right now this instant. I don't get why people think it's something other than what we already have. It's what allows people with good enough connections to stream on demand shows today.

The only question is if they could really handle more than one at a time.


----------



## RAD

CraigerM said:


> I wonder if the RVU TV's will add Wireless RVU to work with the HS17?


Never understood why DIRECTV didn't work with the TV makers to allow for their wireless adapter to connect to a WVB using RVU. Wouldn't it be nice to have a 19" TV on the kitchen counter that only needed a powe cord?


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Doesn't beamforming work with all wireless devices in general?


Nope. Both sides need to be AC and support beamforming. Supposedly some implementations attempt to "guess" the relative positions of the client, but for true beamforming, the client and server need to support it. Not all AC servers and/or clients support it. Its an optional feature in AC.


----------



## slice1900

They will eventually have to have new clients, both wired and wireless, both 4K and non-4K, to take advantage of the newer MoCA 2.0 flavor of DECA, and 802.11ac. After all, the job aid writeup says it supports 7 streams, but only "up to 5" can be MoCA 1.1 streams. So if you wanted to use 7 wired clients, even if you didn't have 4K, some of them must be MoCA 2.0.

Interestingly, it also said "C51 and earlier" for MoCA 1.1 clients. Maybe the C61 and C61K are MoCA 2.0, but haven't been able to use that capability yet since Directv didn't have any Genies or WVBs that supported it?


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> They will eventually have to have new clients, both wired and wireless, both 4K and non-4K, to take advantage of the newer MoCA 2.0 flavor of DECA, and 802.11ac. After all, the job aid writeup says it supports 7 streams, but only "up to 5" can be MoCA 1.1 streams. So if you wanted to use 7 wired clients, even if you didn't have 4K, some of them must be MoCA 2.0.
> 
> Interestingly, it also said "C51 and earlier" for MoCA 1.1 clients. Maybe the C61 and C61K are MoCA 2.0, but haven't been able to use that capability yet since Directv didn't have any Genies or WVBs that supported it?


Good call. We need someone to crack that sucker open and see if there is a different chip in it


----------



## compnurd

inkahauts said:


> All genies and all hr2x DVRs are iptv capable right now this instant. I don't get why people think it's something other than what we already have. It's what allows people with good enough connections to stream on demand shows today.
> 
> The only question is if they could really handle more than one at a time.


Correct. I think it is some people are hell bent that there is going to be some sort of uverse/directv box


----------



## JosephB

compnurd said:


> Correct. I think it is some people are hell bent that there is going to be some sort of uverse/directv box


There isn't going to be a U-Verse/DirecTV box, because AT&T is going to get rid of U-Verse TV

There *is* going to be a DirecTV box that can recieve live programming over an IP connection, and that is going to be a lot different than the way it gets DirecTV on Demand content. It basically will need to be able to reliably stream X incoming network connections and handle them exactly the same way it handles data from the satellite.

That's what the internet gateway is for. They'll likely utilize multicast on their own network, just like they do for U-Verse IPTV. They can dump the Mediaroom platform they use for U-Verse but keep other aspects for when they switch over to a DirecTV platform for IP customers.


----------



## P Smith

JosephB said:


> There isn't going to be a U-Verse/DirecTV box, because AT&T is going to get rid of U-Verse TV
> 
> There *is* going to be a DirecTV box that can recieve live programming over an IP connection, and that is going to be a lot different than the way it gets DirecTV on Demand content. It basically will need to be able to reliably stream X incoming network connections and handle them exactly the same way it handles data from the satellite.
> 
> That's what the internet gateway is for. They'll likely utilize multicast on their own network, just like they do for U-Verse IPTV. They can dump the Mediaroom platform they use for U-Verse but keep other aspects for when they switch over to a DirecTV platform for IP customers.


OK with U-Verse discourage.

So, back to the topic - what you can say about HS-17 ?


----------



## ROK5TAR

I can say on the box that shipped it's called genie air


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> There *is* going to be a DirecTV box that can recieve live programming over an IP connection


According to some of you on here , I thought the majority of folks have a crappy internet connection? You aren't going to be downloading 5 4K streams with a 25Mbps connection. Or even something like my 175Mbps. Not unless you want overly compressed garbage like a lot of DirecTV channels have now -- and sorry, but they do. Lots of compression noise of most channels. Dunno why DirecTV isn't going H.265?


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> According to some of you on here , I thought the majority of folks have a crappy internet connection? You aren't going to be downloading 5 4K streams with a 25Mbps connection. Or even something like my 175Mbps. Not unless you want overly compressed garbage like a lot of DirecTV channels have now -- and sorry, but they do. Lots of compression noise of most channels. Dunno why DirecTV isn't going H.265?


I'd wager that the IP delivery will end up being limited to customers of AT&T's internet service, but any gateway would also connect to 3rd party broadband to download on demand programming or possibly integrate with DirecTV NOW

And they aren't going H.265 because the MPEG-4 receivers out in the field aren't upgradable. The decoders are hardware, not software. Maybe for IP delivered DirecTV (whether that be DirecTV NOW or their U-Verse replacement) can switch to H.265, but for satellite customers that's probably not in the cards. When they dump MPEG-2 SD channels, they'll get a ton of bandwidth, so that won't be an issue anyway.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> limited to customers of AT&T's internet service


This is funny. Every single time I call DirecTV for whatever reason. They try to pawn off the AT&T internet service to me. I say "AT&T internet is really slow in my area" to try to get to what I called about, but they try to hard sell me that the AT&T 75Mbps service is faster then my Cox 175Mbps service. I'd actually love to get AT&T Gigabit service at my house, for what is it now? $75/mo if you let them spy on you? Or $99 for no spying? I suspect Cox will roll out Gigabit first to my area as they seem to be going Docsis 3.1.

AT&T internet is doomed, honestly. They are copper phone lines for the most part, no? They aren't going to get fiber to every house in the service areas. Google Fiber tried that and went belly up.


----------



## AZ.

SledgeHammer said:


> This is funny. Every single time I call DirecTV for whatever reason. They try to pawn off the AT&T internet service to me. I say "AT&T internet is really slow in my area" to try to get to what I called about, but they try to hard sell me that the AT&T 75Mbps service is faster then my Cox 175Mbps service. I'd actually love to get AT&T Gigabit service at my house, for what is it now? $75/mo if you let them spy on you? Or $99 for no spying? I suspect Cox will roll out Gigabit first to my area as they seem to be going Docsis 3.1.
> 
> AT&T internet is doomed, honestly. They are copper phone lines for the most part, no? They aren't going to get fiber to every house in the service areas. Google Fiber tried that and went belly up.


Please dont kid yourself.....You are being spied on no matter what or where....!


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> $75/mo if you let them spy on you? Or $99 for no spying? I suspect Cox will roll out Gigabit first to my area as they seem to be going Docsis 3.1.


AT&T eliminated the "Internet Preferences" program where they scan your internet traffic to target ads. They no longer do that scanning and dropped prices to the lower price.

AT&T is eventually going to be fiber and wireless only. If you can get fiber, great, if not, they'll try to sell you on their eventual fixed wireless internet service.


----------



## SledgeHammer

AZ. said:


> Please dont kid yourself.....You are being spied on no matter what or where....!


That's why I like Cox. They are independent and don't have any content to protect and they realize that thier bread and butter is from piracy, so they really don't care what you do... if you get "busted" by one of those torrent spy outfits, Cox just forwards the complaint to your email which pretty much says "we don't really care, don't call us about this... just don't do it again wink, wink".

I'd like the speeds of at&t fiber, but I wouldn't really like thier close ties to content providers.

Also, a lot of sites are going https, so that helps eliminate spying.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> AT&T is eventually going to be fiber and wireless only. If you can get fiber, great, if not, they'll try to sell you on their eventual fixed wireless internet service.


Fiber is nice, but it requires digging up streets, neighborhoods, lawns, etc. Its very, very costly. RG6 is already deployed pretty much everywhere and DOCSIS 3.1 can scale to 10Gbps. Just my opinion of course, but that makes fiber a non starter. Google Fiber had other things going for it: phone and TV over the same fiber. AT&T could do that, but that doesn't really make sense either since satellite is an easier & cheaper deploy then fiber. AT&T fiber is actually in my city, but just a few new construction areas. I'm not seeing them digging up streets or installing fiber huts anywhere.


----------



## slice1900

They didn't have to take Uverse into account when designing the HS17 because they are migrating off it as fast as they can. Look at yesterday's quarterly numbers delivered by AT&T. 230K new Directv satellite subscribers (plus 200K Directv Now subscribers) and a loss of 262K Uverse TV subscribers.

Those numbers are pretty consistent quarter to quarter, with Directv adding about as many subscribers as Uverse loses. Which totally makes sense when you consider they are steering any new customers at AT&T to Directv, and only signing up new Uverse TV customers if people insist on it or can't get Directv where they live. So they don't need new Uverse TV hardware, since they have so much old hardware coming back from subscribers leaving.

The HS17 doesn't need any support for Directv Now either, since they don't install hardware for Directv Now customers (at least today, perhaps someday they might sell DVR service as an option) So I don't think it has or needs any sort of special provisions for IPTV. Especially since as pointed out, the HR2x and Genie already support IPTV in the form of on demand streaming.


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> They didn't have to take Uverse into account when designing the HS17 because they are migrating off it as fast as they can. Look at yesterday's quarterly numbers delivered by AT&T. 230K new Directv satellite subscribers (plus 200K Directv Now subscribers) and a loss of 262K Uverse TV subscribers.
> 
> Those numbers are pretty consistent quarter to quarter, with Directv adding about as many subscribers as Uverse loses. Which totally makes sense when you consider they are steering any new customers at AT&T to Directv, and only signing up new Uverse TV customers if people insist on it or can't get Directv where they live. So they don't need new Uverse TV hardware, since they have so much old hardware coming back from subscribers leaving.
> 
> The HS17 doesn't need any support for Directv Now either, since they don't install hardware for Directv Now customers (at least today, perhaps someday they might sell DVR service as an option) So I don't think it has or needs any sort of special provisions for IPTV. Especially since as pointed out, the HR2x and Genie already support IPTV in the form of on demand streaming.


They still want to be able to offer DirecTV to those in locations that can't put up a dish for whatever reason. This box may not do it but I think eventually as DirecTV NOW matures and their fiber expansion continues, they will have a box capable of receiving regular DirecTV services purely over a network connection (important not to say internet, because it will be internal to AT&T only, but it will be an IP connection, not a satellite dish on the roof)


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> They still want to be able to offer DirecTV to those in locations that can't put up a dish for whatever reason. This box may not do it but I think eventually as DirecTV NOW matures and their fiber expansion continues, they will have a box capable of receiving regular DirecTV services purely over a network connection (important not to say internet, because it will be internal to AT&T only, but it will be an IP connection, not a satellite dish on the roof)


Don't forget many people have low data caps. Especially on lower packages. On my 175Mbps tier, my cap is 1TB/month. If I had full TV over IP, that'd get used up in a hurry.


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> Don't forget many people have low data caps. Especially on lower packages. On my 175Mbps tier, my cap is 1TB/month. If I had full TV over IP, that'd get used up in a hurry.


AT&T doesn't have caps when you have DirecTV. Remember we're only talking about AT&T landline internet here. If you don't have AT&T you'll be putting up a dish or going with DirecTV NOW instead.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> They didn't have to take Uverse into account when designing the HS17 because they are migrating off it as fast as they can. Look at yesterday's quarterly numbers delivered by AT&T. 230K new Directv satellite subscribers (plus 200K Directv Now subscribers) and a loss of 262K Uverse TV subscribers.
> 
> Those numbers are pretty consistent quarter to quarter, with Directv adding about as many subscribers as Uverse loses. Which totally makes sense when you consider they are steering any new customers at AT&T to Directv, and only signing up new Uverse TV customers if people insist on it or can't get Directv where they live. So they don't need new Uverse TV hardware, since they have so much old hardware coming back from subscribers leaving.
> 
> The HS17 doesn't need any support for Directv Now either, since they don't install hardware for Directv Now customers (at least today, perhaps someday they might sell DVR service as an option) So I don't think it has or needs any sort of special provisions for IPTV. Especially since as pointed out, the HR2x and Genie already support IPTV in the form of on demand streaming.


I saw that today and now I am agreeing with you that UVerseTV is going away. Especially since I read the transcript of their conference call. I am taking another way of looking at the HS17 not being a hybrid box anymore and it not needing the modem built in. I forgot that they only reason it needs an Internet connection is for DirecTV Cinema and the DTV Apps. Unless the next guide has Internet features? I was just thinking of the WIFI range between the HS17 and the Modem to get DTV Cinema to work great if the modem is in another room and that room is far away from the HS17.


----------



## JosephB

Fiber connections don't have a "modem", they just have the gateway that is a router + authenticates the connection. This box could easily do that as it stands today

For VDSL based AT&T Internet customers, a small VDSL modem that then connects to this box would not be a stretch by any means

And future fixed wireless services will need another box to handle the radios anyway, so that's not an issue either


----------



## inkahauts

JosephB said:


> They still want to be able to offer DirecTV to those in locations that can't put up a dish for whatever reason. This box may not do it but I think eventually as DirecTV NOW matures and their fiber expansion continues, they will have a box capable of receiving regular DirecTV services purely over a network connection (important not to say internet, because it will be internal to AT&T only, but it will be an IP connection, not a satellite dish on the roof)


If hey start offering DIRECTV via internet only then two things... one I doubt it will be limited to att internet customers only and second, what's the point of DIRECTV now at that point? DIRECTV sat isn't limited like internet is by a bottle neck. So I don't think we will ever see the true DIRECTV system available by itself over internet.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> According to some of you on here , I thought the majority of folks have a crappy internet connection? You aren't going to be downloading 5 4K streams with a 25Mbps connection. Or even something like my 175Mbps. Not unless you want overly compressed garbage like a lot of DirecTV channels have now -- and sorry, but they do. Lots of compression noise of most channels. Dunno why DirecTV isn't going H.265?


They already are using .265. For 4K. That's why the c61k and tvs with built in rvu is the only way to get 4K. Many seem to think it's about just hdcp but it's not.


----------



## CraigerM

JosephB said:


> Fiber connections don't have a "modem", they just have the gateway that is a router + authenticates the connection. This box could easily do that as it stands today
> 
> For VDSL based AT&T Internet customers, a small VDSL modem that then connects to this box would not be a stretch by any means
> 
> And future fixed wireless services will need another box to handle the radios anyway, so that's not an issue either


Oh I didn't realize that a gateway really didn't have a modem in it. The gateway just authenticates that a home has FTTH? Our area is not FTTH. So when or if our area gets FTTH I could get rid of my modem and the HS17 would replace it and the HS17 would authenticate the Internet? Then the HS17 would spread the Internet around the home? I am understanding this right?


----------



## P Smith

inkahauts said:


> They already are using .265. For 4K. That's why the c61k and tvs with built in rvu is the only way to get 4K. Many seem to think it's about just hdcp but it's not.


perhaps C61K does use it: HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 ... and decoding H.265 4K stream for sure


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> Fiber connections don't have a "modem", they just have the gateway that is a router + authenticates the connection. This box could easily do that as it stands today


They have an ONU (optical network unit) that is the "modem"... thats where the fiber comes in and CAT5e comes out. It doesn't do routing AFAIK since its usually on the outside of the house where the services come in. The CAT5e from the ONU goes into the router. Is AT&T doing something different then that?


----------



## slice1900

There are multiple ways of doing FTTH, some terminate the fiber outside the house and have a cat5 connection going in, some have the fiber running inside and the fiber->cat5 connection happening there and will often be a typical router with NAT, wifi etc. - the only difference from a traditional wireless router being that it has an optical connection for the LAN port instead of RJ45.

For your fiber that terminates outside the house, does your internet connection stay up when you lose power?


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> There are multiple ways of doing FTTH, some terminate the fiber outside the house and have a cat5 connection going in, some have the fiber running inside and the fiber->cat5 connection happening there and will often be a typical router with NAT, wifi etc. - the only difference from a traditional wireless router being that it has an optical connection for the LAN port instead of RJ45.
> 
> For your fiber that terminates outside the house, does your internet connection stay up when you lose power?


Personally, I'd just want a CAT5e output so I can use my own router. ISP routers are way behind the times. They aren't going to give you Wave 2, MU-MIMO, Beam Forming, DPS, 160Mhz channels, WRT support, etc. If you have to use their router and then piggy back your own on top of that to get the new features, that's another DirecTV / AT&T type half baked design where they just give you boxes for the sake of giving you boxes. A good example of a killer feature where it'd take years or more for an ISP to catch up is 5Gbps ethernet. Probably going to start rolling out by 2018.

AFAIK, when I researched GF, since they were coming to my town before they shutdown, thier NIU required a power outlet, so you'd either need a whole home generator or a battery backup if you want internet up in power outages. Not sure what AT&T is doing.


----------



## JosephB

inkahauts said:


> If hey start offering DIRECTV via internet only then two things... one I doubt it will be limited to att internet customers only and second, what's the point of DIRECTV now at that point? DIRECTV sat isn't limited like internet is by a bottle neck. So I don't think we will ever see the true DIRECTV system available by itself over internet.


I don't expect "DirecTV via Internet". If you're not an AT&T Internet customer, your option will be DirecTV NOW or put up a satellite dish. If you are an AT&T customer, though, you'll have the option of full DirecTV service delivered through your internet connection



inkahauts said:


> They already are using .265. For 4K. That's why the c61k and tvs with built in rvu is the only way to get 4K. Many seem to think it's about just hdcp but it's not.


Right, but they can't switch HD over to that. They can only put brand new services on H.265. Otherwise they'd have to replace all the HD boxes out there in the wild today.



SledgeHammer said:


> They have an ONU (optical network unit) that is the "modem"... thats where the fiber comes in and CAT5e comes out. It doesn't do routing AFAIK since its usually on the outside of the house where the services come in. The CAT5e from the ONU goes into the router. Is AT&T doing something different then that?


Right. The ONU is the "modem", it's outside or at the point of entry to the house.

AT&T has been known to both put an active ONU outside or just inside, and then run a Cat6 ethernet cable to the gateway, and, they have also been known to run fiber all the way to the gateway. Their gateways have both fiber and ethernet ports.

With AT&T fiber you are required to use their gateway, because the gateway is how it authenticates your account. It has a certificate that it uses to authorize your connection. It has a router built in, but you can put it in "passthrough" mode and turn off the built in wireless if you want to use your own router and wifi, but, you 100% have to have their gateway in the mix, whether VDSL2 U-Verse or Fiber/Gigapower. There are a 1 or 2 super complicated ways if you have fiber to take the GW out of the mix once you're authenticated, but it's seriously very complicated.


----------



## CraigerM

So the HS17 will have an AT&T Gateway built into it? The HS17 would have on ONT input that connects to the ONT on the outside of the home with an Ethernet connection? Also have a four port router but it wouldn't have a phone input?


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> With AT&T fiber you are required to use their gateway, because the gateway is how it authenticates your account. It has a certificate that it uses to authorize your connection. It has a router built in, but you can put it in "passthrough" mode and turn off the built in wireless if you want to use your own router and wifi, but, you 100% have to have their gateway in the mix, whether VDSL2 U-Verse or Fiber/Gigapower. There are a 1 or 2 super complicated ways if you have fiber to take the GW out of the mix once you're authenticated, but it's seriously very complicated.


Why wouldn't they just use the mac address of the router? Seems to be fine for the cable companies. Do you have a link for those super complicated ways? I don't have gigapower, just curious. I searched for it a bit on google, and saw a mention of it, but not a description of the process.

Don't they charge you a monthly rental fee for it? ISPs typically charge you out the wazoo for renting modems & routers.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> So the HS17 will have an AT&T Gateway built into it? The HS17 would have on ONT input that connects to the ONT on the outside of the home with an Ethernet connection? Also have a four port router but it wouldn't have a phone input?


NO, IT WILL NOT. Why do you keep going back to this nutty idea over and over and over again?


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> Why wouldn't they just use the mac address of the router? Seems to be fine for the cable companies. Do you have a link for those super complicated ways? I don't have gigapower, just curious. I searched for it a bit on google, and saw a mention of it, but not a description of the process.
> 
> Don't they charge you a monthly rental fee for it? ISPs typically charge you out the wazoo for renting modems & routers.


Yes, there's a $7 rental fee for the gateway.

Here's a link to the thread at DSL Reports. The actual working method is not the first one in the first post, it's way deep in the thread: AT&T Residential Gateway Bypass - True bridge mode! - AT&T U-verse | DSLReports Forums

Basically, the way AT&T does their authentication is with 802.1x. It's the same way that corporations handle wifi authentication and sometimes even wired authentication on their networks. Your computer (or router) has a certificate which it sends to AT&T and securely identifies your gateway as belonging to you. They were using this method for VDSL long before they did any fiber, and it seems they just carried it over to their fiber network. It's cryptographically secure, so it's much more reliable and secure than simply using MAC addresses.

The "bypass" method involves using a switch that can utilize VLANs and separate traffic based on the type of traffic. You then connect the gateway and your own router to the switch and jump through some hoops so that the 802.1x traffic goes to the gateway, which authenticates you, and then all other traffic goes directly to your router.

Personally, I think it would be awesome if they'd just authenticate the ONU. It's possible, because the ONU is more than just a dumb media converter. Supposedly as AT&T works through their "network virutalization" project, that is eventually going to be the case. The ONU itself will handle the authentication and you will literally be able to just buy a bare ethernet jack and have at it.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> Yes, there's a $7 rental fee for the gateway.
> 
> Here's a link to the thread at DSL Reports. The actual working method is not the first one in the first post, it's way deep in the thread: AT&T Residential Gateway Bypass - True bridge mode! - AT&T U-verse | DSLReports Forums
> 
> Basically, the way AT&T does their authentication is with 802.1x. It's the same way that corporations handle wifi authentication and sometimes even wired authentication on their networks. Your computer (or router) has a certificate which it sends to AT&T and securely identifies your gateway as belonging to you. They were using this method for VDSL long before they did any fiber, and it seems they just carried it over to their fiber network. It's cryptographically secure, so it's much more reliable and secure than simply using MAC addresses.
> 
> The "bypass" method involves using a switch that can utilize VLANs and separate traffic based on the type of traffic. You then connect the gateway and your own router to the switch and jump through some hoops so that the 802.1x traffic goes to the gateway, which authenticates you, and then all other traffic goes directly to your router.
> 
> Personally, I think it would be awesome if they'd just authenticate the ONU. It's possible, because the ONU is more than just a dumb media converter. Supposedly as AT&T works through their "network virutalization" project, that is eventually going to be the case. The ONU itself will handle the authentication and you will literally be able to just buy a bare ethernet jack and have at it.


That sucks. Even if you do the super complicated way, you'd still have to pay the $7/mo. So you might as well use the pass-through feature if you want a better router. Seems like Docsis 3.1 will be cheaper for most of the country then. No construction for the most part and the infrastructure is already there. My in wall coax's are all RG6's and my house to the cable co box on the street was upgraded to RG10.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> NO, IT WILL NOT. Why do you keep going back to this nutty idea over and over and over again?


Because of what JosephB is saying. He is saying it wont have a modem in it but will have a Gateway in it. I was confusing Modem and Gateway. I realize UverseTV is going away.


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> Because of what JosephB is saying. He is saying it wont have a modem in it but will have a Gateway in it. I was confusing Modem and Gateway. I realize UverseTV is going away.


Until we see more documentation. From what we have seen I don't see anything indicating this will have a gateway


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> Until we see more documentation. From what we have seen I don't see anything indicating this will have a gateway


That is one way of looking at it. Until someone gets their hands on it and can post photos of it especially the back where the inputs are no one really knows the full capabilities of the HS17.


----------



## JosephB

CraigerM said:


> Because of what JosephB is saying. He is saying it wont have a modem in it but will have a Gateway in it. I was confusing Modem and Gateway. I realize UverseTV is going away.


I never said this one would have a gateway. I said I see this as a step on a path towards a headless server that has a router built in. However, I don't know anything about this unit other than what's in this thread.


----------



## CraigerM

JosephB said:


> I never said this one would have a gateway. I said I see this as a step on a path towards a headless server that has a router built in. However, I don't know anything about this unit other than what's in this thread.


Sorry about that.


----------



## James Long

inkahauts said:


> If hey start offering DIRECTV via internet only then two things... one I doubt it will be limited to att internet customers only and second, what's the point of DIRECTV now at that point? DIRECTV sat isn't limited like internet is by a bottle neck. So I don't think we will ever see the true DIRECTV system available by itself over internet.


I agree with JosephB that AT&T will not be offering DIRECTV over Internet ... and reading what you wrote you basically agree that the full DIRECTV will not be available over the open Internet. "DirecTV Now" is (and will be) AT&T's Internet product.

But "DIRECTV" over AT&T's private network? That is possible. Basically a replacement for UVerse over AT&T's ISP. Although due to contract limitations there may still be differences between the satellite and wired systems. And there certainly will be differences between the satellite and wired when it comes to the number and type of TVs supported. Satellite broadcast where every home gets every signal (except locals stations divided by market) gives subscribers a technology that is only limited by the configuration of their home. AT&T's ISP isn't going to be able to support as many simultaneous 4K and HD feeds that a satellite system can support.


----------



## tylorert

Senior Software Developer - Indeed Resume
Heres a link to what I hope, Specs of the unit


----------



## inkahauts

In two or three years...

And If they developed a DVR option or a cloud based based DVR option for DIRECTV now...

And as time goes on the channels and offerings is close enough...

I could see them moving to two platforms rather than the three they have now with Uverse..

DIRECTV sat as it is today, and DIRECTV now for everyone else. Replace all Uverse with dtv now. 

Honestly I think that would be the best route to go. I don't see a point in offering DIRECTV sat via ip in some markets.. and it would probably be easier to move Uverse people to DIRECTV now. 



Either way Uverse will be allowed to shrink till a tipping point then they will push everyone else over the edge and be done imho. And I'll bet both DIRECTV and DIRECTV is better on the bottom line than Uverse.


----------



## JosephB

inkahauts said:


> In two or three years...
> 
> And If they developed a DVR option or a cloud based based DVR option for DIRECTV now...
> 
> And as time goes on the channels and offerings is close enough...
> 
> I could see them moving to two platforms rather than the three they have now with Uverse..
> 
> DIRECTV sat as it is today, and DIRECTV now for everyone else. Replace all Uverse with dtv now.
> 
> Honestly I think that would be the best route to go. I don't see a point in offering DIRECTV sat via ip in some markets.. and it would probably be easier to move Uverse people to DIRECTV now.
> 
> Either way Uverse will be allowed to shrink till a tipping point then they will push everyone else over the edge and be done imho. And I'll bet both DIRECTV and DIRECTV is better on the bottom line than Uverse.


DirecTV NOW is not a viable alternative to U-Verse IPTV, though. The point of offering "full" DirecTV over IP is that not everyone can get a dish installed for various reasons (line of sight, MDU, etc).


----------



## inkahauts

JosephB said:


> DirecTV NOW is not a viable alternative to U-Verse IPTV, though. The point of offering "full" DirecTV over IP is that not everyone can get a dish installed for various reasons (line of sight, MDU, etc).


Why? You did see I mention in a couple years when it's further along. More locals presumably and DVR options etc.  I'm saying switch when it becomes a viable option.


----------



## JosephB

inkahauts said:


> Why? You did see I mention in a couple years when it's further along. More locals presumably and DVR options etc. I'm saying switch when it becomes a viable option.


AT&T wants and needs to replace U-Verse TV way sooner than that. DirecTV NOW is more than a couple of years from being the same thing as regular DirecTV and unless some pretty major regulatory changes are made will *never* be the same thing. Facilities-based MVPDs have certain rights/abilities that are just not possible with an OTT service


----------



## makaiguy

JosephB said:


> . The point of offering "full" DirecTV over IP is that not everyone can get a dish installed for various reasons (line of sight, MDU, etc).


Not everyone can get decent broadband internet yet either.


----------



## JosephB

makaiguy said:


> Not everyone can get decent broadband internet yet either.


well, they definitely won't be getting rid of the satellites so that isn't a problem. it's not an either/or situation


----------



## dpeters11

SledgeHammer said:


> Fiber is nice, but it requires digging up streets, neighborhoods, lawns, etc. Its very, very costly. RG6 is already deployed pretty much everywhere and DOCSIS 3.1 can scale to 10Gbps. Just my opinion of course, but that makes fiber a non starter. Google Fiber had other things going for it: phone and TV over the same fiber. AT&T could do that, but that doesn't really make sense either since satellite is an easier & cheaper deploy then fiber. AT&T fiber is actually in my city, but just a few new construction areas. I'm not seeing them digging up streets or installing fiber huts anywhere.


It doesn't require it, mine is run overhead on poles then down to the ONT in the basement. Though mine isn't U-verse, it's Cincinnati Bell (not using their hardware either, returned it to them and using straight with dd-wrt then eero.)

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

makaiguy said:


> Not everyone can get decent broadband internet yet either.


We are talking about what they will turn Uverse into though. Will they make it DIRECTV over ip something else like DIRECTV now.


----------



## inkahauts

JosephB said:


> AT&T wants and needs to replace U-Verse TV way sooner than that. DirecTV NOW is more than a couple of years from being the same thing as regular DirecTV and unless some pretty major regulatory changes are made will *never* be the same thing. Facilities-based MVPDs have certain rights/abilities that are just not possible with an OTT service


Again why the rush? There's no cliff where suddenly the world explodes in this and letting people migrate on their own slowly saves them more money.

And there's also things DIRECTV does with sat now that they probably can't do if they go ip so then you are looking at Uverse simply rebranded as DIRECTV ip or something of that nature. And again I don't see the point in that. Then you are rebranding something you don't even want.

Now if they are planning on expanding giga and fixed wireless and want something more than DIRECTV now maybe I see them wanting a third DIRECTV division if you will, but I will wait to see it before I believe it.

And again give me two of the biggest regulatory hurdles to using DIRECTV now to take over for Uverse? And remember, att wants to move to platforms that have less regulations and red tape wherever possible.


----------



## SledgeHammer

dpeters11 said:


> It doesn't require it, mine is run overhead on poles then down to the ONT in the basement. Though mine isn't U-verse, it's Cincinnati Bell (not using their hardware either, returned it to them and using straight with dd-wrt then eero.)


Ah... in my area (and my parents and my sister), all the unsightly utilities are buried (in most areas). The trade off is that we don't get basements .


----------



## dpeters11

SledgeHammer said:


> Ah... in my area (and my parents and my sister), all the unsightly utilities are buried (in most areas). The trade off is that we don't get basements .


They didn't have that foresight in the 20s when my house was built 

I think fiber is in about 60% of the city, some fttn, some ftth but mainly aboveground.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> Ah... in my area (and my parents and my sister), all the unsightly utilities are buried (in most areas). The trade off is that we don't get basements .


Hey we have California basements in a lot of areas!!! :lol:

I think we don't have basements because we don't have tornados. Not because of underground utilities anywhere. My utilities are above ground in my area. 

Ok so some newer homes they have basements in a few cities. Like the multi million dollar mini mansions in arcadia.

But truth is that either way satelites are by far the easiest way to get a tv service different from the old cable company. You don't have distance issues with Uverse and speed issues with cables on some areas.

I don't see any new hardware coming from Uverse ever. So that leaves me with the question of what they will do with that system eventually... I wouldn't be surprised if we have about four years before they want to swap people to different hardware for accounting reasons.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Hey we have California basements in a lot of areas!!! :lol:
> 
> I think we don't have basements because we don't have tornados. Not because of underground utilities anywhere. My utilities are above ground in my area.


I didn't mean we don't get basements because they buried the utilities. I just meant its nicer to have the utilities buried for aesthetics. The no basement thing is a side effect of living in California. But I guess newer areas in general bury utilities nowadays.

BTW, we don't have basements in California due to the earthquake code. New construction is California is generally a post tension slab with multiple shear walls and everything bolted to the slab. I have this bad boy in my house (built 2002):

http://www.mcvicker.com/twd/apa/eqguide/eqfigg.gif


----------



## James Long

Getting back to AT&T provided services ...


----------



## djmaxwell

SledgeHammer said:


> That sucks. Even if you do the super complicated way, you'd still have to pay the $7/mo.


When I signed up, they included the gateway by refunding back the $7.


----------



## ROK5TAR

AT&T's multi-gigabit wireless over power lines heading to trials this year

This is why I think they included a SIM card in the hs-17

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

ROK5TAR said:


> AT&T's multi-gigabit wireless over power lines heading to trials this year
> 
> This is why I think they included a SIM card in the hs-17


Well, that's not too bright. New construction (and probably most construction since, what, the 70's?) buries utilities. Especially on residential tracts. I guess its fine if you have above ground utilities...


----------



## inkahauts

ROK5TAR said:


> AT&T's multi-gigabit wireless over power lines heading to trials this year
> 
> This is why I think they included a SIM card in the hs-17
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Huh? Why would you think that. DIRECTV receivers have had access cards since the dawn of dtv.


----------



## ROK5TAR

inkahauts said:


> Huh? Why would you think that. DIRECTV receivers have had access cards since the dawn of dtv.


SIM card not access card

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, that's not too bright. New construction (and probably most construction since, what, the 70's?) buries utilities. Especially on residential tracts. I guess its fine if you have above ground utilities...












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

ROK5TAR said:


> SIM card not access card
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The SIM card replaces the access card in the HS17, it doesn't have both. It was pretty easy to guess they were going that direction since the newer access cards have a 'punch out' section where you can remove a SIM card sized piece with the chip on it.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, that's not too bright. New construction (and probably most construction since, what, the 70's?) buries utilities. Especially on residential tracts. I guess its fine if you have above ground utilities...


It is targeted at rural areas where running fiber is very expensive. I expect they'll use it as backhaul to rural towers, and customers will get their actual internet via fixed wireless LTE.

People who live in areas new enough that all their utilities are buried already have high speed internet options and don't need this.


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> The SIM card replaces the access card in the HS17, it doesn't have both. It was pretty easy to guess they were going that direction since the newer access cards have a 'punch out' section where you can remove a SIM card sized piece with the chip on it.


more confusion ...
DTV SIM-size access card or SIM phone card instead of DTV access card (aka smart card) ?


----------



## inkahauts

ROK5TAR said:


> SIM card not access card
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have you seen the new access cards? They are all designed to break out the access card to the size of a cell Phone SIM card... but it's still an access card.


----------



## ROK5TAR

P Smith said:


> more confusion ...
> DTV SIM-size access card or SIM phone card instead of DTV access card (aka smart card) ?


ATT SIM phone card

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

Semantics.


As for power line Internet - I'd expect the network to stay on the wires, not using the wires as a broadcast antenna. The power lines could feed access points along the line if Wi-Fi is needed. But buried vs aerial should not matter.


----------



## P Smith

ROK5TAR said:


> ATT SIM phone card
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OK
Just more curious - is there also normal DTV smart card aka access card in HS17 ?


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> It is targeted at rural areas where running fiber is very expensive.


Running fiber *anywhere* is expensive . There really isn't any point in running fiber anywhere anyways. Existing coax infrastructure can run DOCSIS 3.1. It's much cheaper to upgrade some equipment in the station then dig up all the streets and yards. From the looks of things, DOCSIS 3.1 is much cheaper and faster then fiber (can scale to at least 10Gbps). AT&T might deploy more fiber as they have no choice if they want to stay competitive, but Google already gave up on Fiber and so has Cox (they are going DOCSIS 3.1). Docsis 3.1 is a no brainer compared to fiber.


----------



## veryoldschool

SledgeHammer said:


> Docsis 3.1 is a no brainer compared to fiber.


Fiber is still king of what it always has had over copper..... loss over distance.
DOCSIS 3.1 has allowed copper to gain bandwidth but still suffers more loss per kilometer


----------



## compnurd

P Smith said:


> OK
> Just more curious - is there also normal DTV smart card aka access card in HS17 ?


No It think he said earlier this has the smaller SIM type card It can still be an access card... no reason for them to be as big as they used to


----------



## JosephB

a directv access card is the same form factor as a SIM

Is it the same software as a SIM in your phone? no, but think about it: you're talking about thousands of installers out in the field that don't know or care about the distinction. it looks like a SIM, and it's AT&T so just call it a SIM

On top of that, call it a "DirecTV SIM" and put the DTV logo/name on it, and there's no confusion.


----------



## JosephB

James Long said:


> Semantics.
> 
> As for power line Internet - I'd expect the network to stay on the wires, not using the wires as a broadcast antenna. The power lines could feed access points along the line if Wi-Fi is needed. But buried vs aerial should not matter.


AT&T's "AirGig" doesn't use the power lines as the transmission medium, just for power and a location to mount the radios. The transmission medium is point to point radio between each pole.


----------



## ROK5TAR

P Smith said:


> OK
> Just more curious - is there also normal DTV smart card aka access card in HS17 ?


I'll see if I can get a pic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

veryoldschool said:


> Fiber is still king of what it always has had over copper..... loss over distance.
> DOCSIS 3.1 has allowed copper to gain bandwidth but still suffers more loss per kilometer


Ok, but the cable industry has solved that problem. Fiber is great if you can run it. The problem is, in a lot / most areas, you can't. Competing utils may not let you use thier poles, chases, etc. You have to jump through hurdles with the city. GF was taking about 1 yr from Step 1 to Step 2 and then another year before construction began. So from the second GF said they MIGHT be coming to your town, it would take ~3 yrs to actually get the service. For places where the utils are buried, you have to dig up all the streets. How would you run fiber in Los Angeles or NY? You could build a whole bunch of cable plants for what it would cost you to wire up 1 small city with fiber.


----------



## inkahauts

ROK5TAR said:


> ATT SIM phone card
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting since I didn't see that in the PDF that was posted. It only said sim sized instead of old full sized. Didn't mention it being a cell phone sim card anywhere. Where did you read that?


----------



## slice1900

JosephB said:


> AT&T's "AirGig" doesn't use the power lines as the transmission medium, just for power and a location to mount the radios. The transmission medium is point to point radio between each pole.


Well, not really. The signal doesn't travel through the wires, but it does depend on the wires to act as a sort of waveguide. AT&T has been vague about the exact details, perhaps for competitive reasons or because few would understand it anyway, but the specific reason they run the signal alongside power lines is simply because they're the highest wire on the pole.

The other interesting thing about it is that they can use almost any frequency, though they've found high frequencies like the millimeter waves they're using for initial testing tend to work better, but they have to check out how it performs in all sorts of weather conditions. Its possible they'd eventually be able to win the right to use spectrum licensed for other uses, since it sounds like the signal is essentially directional along the wires - if so it wouldn't interfere with certain types of licensed use (for instance Ka A & B band uplinks in the 28 - 29 GHz range)

When a home user gets internet from this, they will NOT receive it over their power lines, and they will not receive a millimeter wave signal. AT&T said they'd typically use LTE to get to the customer, but could use any spectrum they hold licenses for or unlicensed spectrum like 5.8 GHz (which would work very well for a directional signal with LOS to the home) Think about a rural area where you have a county road with poles running along it, and people have driveways 1/4 mile long. They could either use an LTE tower in the area that serves homes in a several mile radius, or have a directional wifi antenna aimed down the driveway at the house, with a wifi antenna outside the house picking up the signal and bringing it inside.


----------



## slice1900

James Long said:


> Semantics.
> 
> As for power line Internet - I'd expect the network to stay on the wires, not using the wires as a broadcast antenna. The power lines could feed access points along the line if Wi-Fi is needed. But buried vs aerial should not matter.


It will not work on buried lines, they have to be aerial because the signal does not travel through the wires at all, but "alongside" them.


----------



## veryoldschool

SledgeHammer said:


> Ok, but the cable industry has solved that problem.


Yeah they use it for the backhaul.
The cable industry hasn't solved the copper loss problem, they [as I tried to point out] use fiber & copper where each is most effective.
Bonded channels [in copper] has removed the to home bottleneck.

Splitting fiber isn't anywhere near as cheap as it is in copper.


----------



## Laxguy

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, that's not too bright. New construction (and probably most construction since, what, the 70's?) buries utilities. Especially on residential tracts. I guess its fine if you have above ground utilities...


I don't see how this affects much of anything. Insertion would be done at various access points, and the customer end would have a lot of options for receiving.

EDIT: Just read post above... So, "never mind!"


----------



## JosephB

Anywhere with buried utilities are going to be dense enough that they'll probably eventually go fiber


----------



## CraigerM

I found out our subdivision is getting the electrical wires buried underground in the Spring. Could AT&T be laying fiber at the same?


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> It will not work on buried lines, they have to be aerial because the signal does not travel through the wires at all, but "alongside" them.


Really, only the antennas need to be aerial.


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> I found out our subdivision is getting the electrical wires buried underground in the Spring. Could AT&T be laying fiber at the same?


Are you getting your other utils buried then? One problem GF ran into was that other people didn't want GF sharing their poles, chases, trenches, etc. its pretty much "DYOFT" between providers .


----------



## Christopher Gould

Video of airgig


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> Are you getting your other utils buried then? One problem GF ran into was that other people didn't want GF sharing their poles, chases, trenches, etc. its pretty much "DYOFT" between providers .


Not sure about that.


----------



## carl6

Data over powerline has been shut down repeatedly because you can't do it without introducing massive RF interference. I doubt AT&T will have any more success with it than others before them.

Okay, read the rest of the thread - maybe it isn't actually over power, as some have noted.


----------



## JosephB

CraigerM said:


> I found out our subdivision is getting the electrical wires buried underground in the Spring. Could AT&T be laying fiber at the same?


Could they? Of course.

Are they? There is absolutely no way anyone here could possibly know.


----------



## Laxguy

Mr. Gould's link to an ATT video is intriguing.


----------



## codespy

CraigerM said:


> I found out our subdivision is getting the electrical wires buried underground in the Spring. Could AT&T be laying fiber at the same?


In several of my local areas I work in, the electrical utility typically installs CATV and Phone cables (lately some get fiber) when they are installing the underground electrical lateral (secondary conductors) to the meter pedestal. They have contracts/agreements with the other utilities to do so, and just coil up the cables by the pedestal after the burial until those utilities come and do the final terminations.

Not sure about other places in the country on that coordination.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Really, only the antennas need to be aerial.


No, all their statements have specifically said it depends on the wires being on poles. If it could work on buried lines it would be called "Dirt Gig"


----------



## James Long

JosephB said:


> AT&T's "AirGig" doesn't use the power lines as the transmission medium, just for power and a location to mount the radios. The transmission medium is point to point radio between each pole.


So it really isn't "power line" internet ... just utility pole Internet.


----------



## slice1900

James Long said:


> So it really isn't "power line" internet ... just utility pole Internet.


It will be used for backhaul, not "last mile", so it isn't a method of home internet delivery any more than a T1 line connecting to a rural cell tower. Customers will get internet via LTE or 5G. Maybe they'll do something else if the AirGig line goes by your house, but they might simply use a really low power cellular antenna dedicated to you. Whatever is the most cost effective, I assume...


----------



## tylorert

Comcast now has cable for Roku! (Hijacked by Tylor) here's what I come into today.


----------



## inkahauts

If I had to guess they where somehow using the magnetic fields of the electrical Lines as guide waves to push the signals along the path. Very interesting no matter how you look at it. H maybe it's just so they have mince of sight one hub thing to the next on the top of the poles. 

Seems great for rural and older areas.


----------



## KyL416

tylorert said:


> Comcast now has cable for Roku! (Hijacked by Tylor) here's what I come into today.


And if you go to forums that focus on Comcast, you'll find numerous complaints about their service as well... (i.e. them making every 1080i channel 720p in markets that they migrate to MPEG4, X1 outages taking out half the country, billing issues, many systems that they acquired from the purchases they made over the past 2 decades lagging behind in upgrades and having a lot less HD channels than DirecTV and Dish, their UHD offerings not available on any of their boxes and only available on a Xfinity UHD Smart TV app that also requires you to have internet from Comcast and was only available on one brand of TV during the Olympics, etc)


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> It will be used for backhaul, not "last mile", so it isn't a method of home internet delivery any more than a T1 line connecting to a rural cell tower. Customers will get internet via LTE or 5G. Maybe they'll do something else if the AirGig line goes by your house, but they might simply use a really low power cellular antenna dedicated to you. Whatever is the most cost effective, I assume...


I'll buy the argument earlier that the power lines will serve somewhat as a guide for the wireless signal (I'm not convinced, I think it's still just 100% LOS directional wireless between poles, but it's plausible) but on this backhaul thing, you're just flat wrong. They totally intend to use AirGig to get to people's houses, not just a backhaul to DSLAMs and cell towers. It'll be used for that, but they'll also use it for getting service directly into a house.

Otherwise, what would the last mile be? AirGig to a distribution point and then new fiber to the houses? 100% wireless is AT&T's goal anywhere they don't have fiber.


----------



## slice1900

JosephB said:


> I'll buy the argument earlier that the power lines will serve somewhat as a guide for the wireless signal (I'm not convinced, I think it's still just 100% LOS directional wireless between poles, but it's plausible) but on this backhaul thing, you're just flat wrong. They totally intend to use AirGig to get to people's houses, not just a backhaul to DSLAMs and cell towers. It'll be used for that, but they'll also use it for getting service directly into a house.
> 
> Otherwise, what would the last mile be? AirGig to a distribution point and then new fiber to the houses? 100% wireless is AT&T's goal anywhere they don't have fiber.


No they'll use LTE (or possibly some other wireless technology) to people's houses. AirGig stays on the poles, it isn't going to the houses. I think it'll mostly just feed cell towers, but they might use some sort of low power 'microcells' that serve only one or a handful of homes instead of only relying on full fledged cell towers.

Remember, AT&T is going big into fixed LTE broadband, AirGig provides a cheaper way to get sufficient bandwidth out to the towers, but in this case also provides an opportunity to greatly expand the number of "towers" they have. They aren't using LTE frequencies your phone can use for fixed wireless, and if the cells are tiny, they could re-use a handful of frequencies to cover large areas.


----------



## James Long

People should watch the video that was posted.


Christopher Gould said:


> Video of airgig


----------



## CraigerM

AT&T will launch 5G wireless in two cities this year


----------



## RAD

Boy did this thread go off the rails.


----------



## veryoldschool

RAD said:


> Boy did this thread go off the rails.


is it time?


----------



## compnurd

Nope


----------



## James Long

I believe we have exhausted the current OT drift (AT&T Internet over power poles).

Let's leave this space open for anything new about the HS-17.


----------



## Laxguy

Looks like someone (James?) deleted a recent post of mine wherein I asked why Rokstar, as a DIRECTV employee was allowed to post what appears to be confidential information.


----------



## P Smith

don't worry - and the post will gone buhahaha !


----------



## ROK5TAR

Who said it was confidential? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## veryoldschool

ROK5TAR said:


> Who said it was confidential?


Those that have it can't talk about it yet.


----------



## ROK5TAR

veryoldschool said:


> Those that have it can't talk about it yet.


So people here have it but can't talk about it. What's the point of this thread then?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## veryoldschool

ROK5TAR said:


> So people here have it but can't talk about it. What's the point of this thread then?


People have it [for testing] and can't talk about it, so I don't know if they're "here" or not.

The thread was started to find information.
There will [should] be a time when the information will go public.


----------



## ROK5TAR

veryoldschool said:


> People have it [for testing] and can't talk about it, so I don't know if they're "here" or not.
> 
> The thread was started to find information.
> There will [should] be a time when the information will go public.


Got it just wondering

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

I haven't read your NDA (non-disclosure agreement). We leave that responsibility up to the people who may or may not have signed one. It is something that people who may have confidential information should keep in mind when sharing.

Non-employees like to know what is coming ... but it isn't worth anyone's job.


----------



## ROK5TAR

James Long said:


> I haven't read your NDA (non-disclosure agreement). We leave that responsibility up to the people who may or may not have signed one. It is something that people who may have confidential information should keep in mind when sharing.
> 
> Non-employees like to know what is coming ... but it isn't worth anyone's job.


I understand. No installers had a nda. Maybe the testers but then again I don't know. The tester didn't even know what was being installed or how it worked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tylorert

KyL416 said:


> And if you go to forums that focus on Comcast, you'll find numerous complaints about their service as well... (i.e. them making every 1080i channel 720p in markets that they migrate to MPEG4, X1 outages taking out half the country, billing issues, many systems that they acquired from the purchases they made over the past 2 decades lagging behind in upgrades and having a lot less HD channels than DirecTV and Dish, their UHD offerings not available on any of their boxes and only available on a Xfinity UHD Smart TV app that also requires you to have internet from Comcast and was only available on one brand of TV during the Olympics, etc)


Woah, I was just saying Comcast is doing this thing. No need to fire your anti comcast gun. Now, let's stop hijacking this thread. "Eaquly


James Long said:


> I haven't read your NDA (non-disclosure agreement). We leave that responsibility up to the people who may or may not have signed one. It is something that people who may have confidential information should keep in mind when sharing.
> 
> Non-employees like to know what is coming ... but it isn't worth anyone's job.


----------



## Laxguy

tylorert said:


> Woah, I was just saying Comcast is doing this thing. No need to fire your anti comcast gun. Now, let's stop hijacking this thread. "Eaquly


One wonders why you, Tylorert, placed that screenshot and Comcast boast (or whatever) in the thread. So, let's move on.


----------



## tylorert

Laxguy said:


> One wonders why you, Tylorert, placed that screenshot and Comcast boast (or whatever) in the thread. So, let's move on.


Agreed


----------



## compnurd

ROK5TAR said:


> I understand. No installers had a nda. Maybe the testers but then again I don't know. The tester didn't even know what was being installed or how it worked.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was thinking the same thing. If people who have it regardless if they have a NDA want to share who cares. It isn't our job to police and stop them


----------



## RAD

As someone that's done some early release testing for DIRCTV going back to the H21 I've never been asked to sign a NDA by anyone, just not to discuss anything during the testing or what occurred during the testing. So if someone has a HS17 and started posting about it before giving the OK they'd probably not be sued by DIRECTV but they'd also never be asked again to participate in any future testing. If past history is any indicator once they are given the OK by DIRECTV there will be a First Look published saying exactly what the box can/can't do and their opinions of it. Hope that helps clear up anything about NDA's based on past experience.


----------



## Laxguy

Well said, RAD. I've tested units in the past, no NDA, but a clear understanding to not discuss until officially released. My original question had to do with an employee, more likely to be under an NDA. Regardless, nothing to see here!


----------



## tylorert

Laxguy said:


> Well said, RAD. I've tested units in the past, no NDA, but a clear understanding to not discuss until officially released. My original question had to do with an employee, more likely to be under an NDA. Regardless, nothing to see here!


These are not the droids you are looking for....... Move along, move along......  Someone had to do it


----------



## James Long

Ok ... now stop talking about moving along and move along. HS-17 discussion please!


----------



## CraigerM

One thing I don't like about the HS-17 is those big air vents sticking out either side.


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> One thing I don't like about the HS-17 is those big air vents sticking out either side.


When are air vents in any electronics a bad thing?


----------



## ROK5TAR

CraigerM said:


> One thing I don't like about the HS-17 is those big air vents sticking out either side.


Which one...these?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

ROK5TAR said:


> Which one...these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They look better in that photo. Thanks for posting that photo. I thought they stuck out more than that. Can you take a photo of the back. Thanks.


----------



## ROK5TAR

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

ROK5TAR said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cool. Thanks.


----------



## CraigerM

inkahauts said:


> When are air vents in any electronics a bad thing?


I know air vents are good for heat dissipation. I was thinking they would have the case look more like this:

https://www.arris.com/globalassets/resources/data-sheets/5268ac.pdf


----------



## SledgeHammer

ROK5TAR said:


> Which one...these?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any estimate on the dimensions? Counting the air vents, it looks to be about 11 or 12 times taller the receiver. That'd make it maybe 18" to 20" tall?


----------



## lzhj9k

Rok5tar

Thanks so much for the photos


----------



## James Long

ROK5TAR said:


>


They have labeled the access card slot "SIM CARD".


----------



## slice1900

Two questions come to mind when seeing that (and THANK YOU for posting them by the way!)

First, the installation instructions you posted say it takes 11 tuners. But the input says "SWM-15" - what I've kind of expected all along that it would use two 8 tuner chips leaving 15 after the guide channel. Maybe it grabs fewer since it currently supports only two 4K streams, but will later support more and then grab more tuners by release? The HR54's input labeling was changed from testing to release, so that SWM-15 label might not survive post-beta.

The second question is what is that "MoCA" label there, is that an LED above it? Guess it lights up when you have a proper connection?


----------



## slice1900

Oh, and I'm glad there's still a USB port. The only thing they use USB for is the AM21, so maybe this means they will support some AM21 replacement down the road? If they do that I hope it has at least four OTA tuners...


----------



## codespy

Almost looks more like a reset button and not an LED........


----------



## compnurd

Oh these are fing awesome


----------



## slice1900

Wonder why it uses DIN for power input, that's a change from the 5.5mm or whatever it is DC mini coaxial the Genie uses, isn't it?


----------



## ROK5TAR

slice1900 said:


> Wonder why it uses DIN for power input, that's a change from the 5.5mm or whatever it is DC mini coaxial the Genie uses, isn't it?


It uses the same power cord I believe from 54

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

codespy said:


> Almost looks more like a reset button and not an LED........


I'm not sure what it is. I forgot to turn it around after I plugged it in. But it did look like a led

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

ROK5TAR said:


> It uses the same power cord I believe from 54


Ah yes, I was looking at the EPS10, not the EPS44...


----------



## RAD

slice1900 said:


> Oh, and I'm glad there's still a USB port. The only thing they use USB for is the AM21, so maybe this means they will support some AM21 replacement down the road? If they do that I hope it has at least four OTA tuners...


Yea it would be nice if they had something new to replace the AM21.


----------



## compnurd

ROK5TAR said:


> I'm not sure what it is. I forgot to turn it around after I plugged it in. But it did look like a led
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you are able to see if you power one on can you check how many tuners it is showing? And how the speed is


----------



## ROK5TAR

compnurd said:


> If you are able to see if you power one on can you check how many tuners it is showing? And how the speed is


Speed? I'll see next time on tuners

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

ROK5TAR said:


> Speed? I'll see next time on tuners
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just how the menus and such are. I am wondering if the minis are faster so to speak with this Curious on the tuners since it is labeled 15 but obviously the docs said 11 plus one for network so 12


----------



## ROK5TAR

Menus are the same except the add a client mode. Clients felt the same. I did wireless. Still lag


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

Hmm. Maybe future Moca 2.0 minis will speed things up Could also be the software needs tuned


----------



## CraigerM

Can you see if it works with an Ethernet cable going from the HS17 to an RVU TV and the speed of the RVU TV.


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> Any estimate on the dimensions? Counting the air vents, it looks to be about 11 or 12 times taller the receiver. That'd make it maybe 18" to 20" tall?


He gave me a comparison shot.


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> Can you see if it works with an Ethernet cable going from the HS17 to an RVU TV and the speed of the RVU TV.


That will probably be dictated by the tv. I can say after the last few firmwares from Samsung the rvu has gotten a lot faster on my js8500


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> That will probably be dictated by the tv. I can say after the last few firmwares from Samsung the rvu has gotten a lot faster on my js8500


Does the guide look dark and how is the PQ not using HDMI? Thanks.


----------



## ROK5TAR

CraigerM said:


> Can you see if it works with an Ethernet cable going from the HS17 to an RVU TV and the speed of the RVU TV.


That won't work. Ethernet is for internet

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

ROK5TAR said:


> That won't work. Ethernet is for internet
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I guess you tried it that way and it didn't work?


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> I guess you tried it that way and it didn't work?


It would be the same has trying to use the Ethernet port for rvu on the hr44/54


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> Does the guide look dark and how is the PQ not using HDMI? Thanks.


It looks a little softer. Only thing I noticed PQ is the same


----------



## CraigerM

I hope the wireless range is good on the HS17 because I wonder how many set-ups will have the gateway and HS17 in different rooms and not next to each other? I don't think people will want to have the HS17, client box and Gateway next to each other in and entertainment center. I think that will be the one disadvantage to going headless and not doing the next server that outputs to 4k over HDMI.


----------



## carl6

SledgeHammer said:


> Any estimate on the dimensions? Counting the air vents, it looks to be about 11 or 12 times taller the receiver. That'd make it maybe 18" to 20" tall?


It is about 10.25 inches tall and 6.5 inches on each triangular side. About-approximate.


----------



## carl6

James Long said:


> They have labeled the access card slot "SIM CARD".


DirecTV new access cards (that fit the access card slot on existing receivers) have the actual access card as a SIM card that can be detached from the larger card. Detached, it would fit the HS17. Attached it fits the older series receivers. So a rose (access card) by any other name (SIM) is still a rose (access card).


----------



## Christopher Gould

slice1900 said:


> Two questions come to mind when seeing that (and THANK YOU for posting them by the way!)
> 
> First, the installation instructions you posted say it takes 11 tuners. But the input says "SWM-15" - what I've kind of expected all along that it would use two 8 tuner chips leaving 15 after the guide channel. Maybe it grabs fewer since it currently supports only two 4K streams, but will later support more and then grab more tuners by release? The HR54's input labeling was changed from testing to release, so that SWM-15 label might not survive post-beta.
> 
> The second question is what is that "MoCA" label there, is that an LED above it? Guess it lights up when you have a proper connection?


15 turners would be sweet, their have been a few nights lately I have had 4 or 5 things recording on genie in front room and I would like to add 2 new boxes to the kids rooms and replace old box in bedroom. So 6 regular turners for front room and maybe 2 each for the other 3 rooms would work out nice. Then 3 more just in case lol. Hopper 3 would have worked perfectly but ther satellite bandwidth seems lacking.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Honestly how hard would it have been to put an HDMI output on there?


----------



## peds48

TheRatPatrol said:


> Honestly how hard would it have been to put an HDMI output on there?


Most likely not too hard, but that is not a direction that DIRECTV is going. With this server....

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

peds48 said:


> Most likely not too hard, but that is not a direction that DIRECTV is going. With this server....
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Would you want that next to your tv?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

ROK5TAR said:


> Would you want that next to your tv?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have a vertical stand, so it could fit real nice in the bottom shelf. 
Something like the one I pictured, but is not that one exactly.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

ROK5TAR said:


> Would you want that next to your tv?


Tell your bosses that some people only have 1 TV . Plus watching off the server is a better experience then a client or RVU. Plus its a simpler install. Plus I already have internet there. Plus, plus, plus, plus, plus...


----------



## James Long

carl6 said:


> DirecTV new access cards (that fit the access card slot on existing receivers) have the actual access card as a SIM card that can be detached from the larger card. Detached, it would fit the HS17. Attached it fits the older series receivers. So a rose (access card) by any other name (SIM) is still a rose (access card).


I understood. Perhaps you missed the "argument" over whether the pop out piece was a SIM card or not. The photo confirmed that DIRECTV is calling it a SIM card - regardless of what their customers and onlookers want to call the pop out piece of the card.


----------



## JosephB

TheRatPatrol said:


> Honestly how hard would it have been to put an HDMI output on there?


Then don't get this, get an HR54/44/34


----------



## Laxguy

James Long said:


> I understood. Perhaps you missed the "argument" over whether the pop out piece was a SIM card or not. The photo confirmed that DIRECTV is calling it a SIM card - regardless of what their customers and onlookers want to call the pop out piece of the card.


Sophistry! The Access Card is simply in the form of a SIM card! Still an access card.


----------



## slice1900

ROK5TAR said:


> That won't work. Ethernet is for internet


So long as it still uses an internal bridge from ethernet to MoCA like the Genie, it would work. Well, connecting directly from HS17 to RVU TV wouldn't work, but plugging the HS17 and RVU TV into the same switch should.


----------



## slice1900

Laxguy said:


> Sophistry! The Access Card is simply in the form of a SIM card! Still an access card.


Yep. It performs the EXACT same function as an access card, authenticating/controlling access to Directv's encrypted channels. It has nothing to do with AT&T's cellular network.


----------



## P Smith

why then obscure it purpose by assigning an acronym taken from cellular phones, where is everyone knows what is SIM card doing ?
mistake or ?

who care of form factor ?
SIM, mini-SIM, micro-SIM, nano-SIM ... still phone card !


----------



## HoTat2

JosephB said:


> Then don't get this, get an HR54/44/34


I think the complaint of course is referring to the decision of no local 4K output on this new server.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## TheRatPatrol

JosephB said:


> Then don't get this, get an HR54/44/34


But you still need 2 receivers at the same TV for 4K.

SledgeHammer........


----------



## HoTat2

SledgeHammer said:


> Tell your bosses that some people only have 1 TV . Plus watching off the server is a better experience then a client or RVU. Plus its a simpler install. Plus I already have internet there. Plus, plus, plus, plus, plus...


Not just single TV households ....

Mine is a thoroughly anti-client attitude home with an HR54 and 5 HR24s on six TVs here, and no one is happy with the future direction of only offering server-client options.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

slice1900 said:


> So long as it still uses an internal bridge from ethernet to MoCA like the Genie, it would work. Well, connecting directly from HS17 to RVU TV wouldn't work, but plugging the HS17 and RVU TV into the same switch should.


That might work never tried it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> So long as it still uses an internal bridge from ethernet to MoCA like the Genie, it would work. Well, connecting directly from HS17 to RVU TV wouldn't work, but plugging the HS17 and RVU TV into the same switch should.


Are you saying if you used an Ethernet cable from the HS17 to a router then an Ethernet cable from the router to the RVU TV that way would work? My TV stand could handle that. I am upgrading to AT&T 45 mbps Monday and they are giving me a new Gateway for that the Pace 5268. It is the same height as the HS17. So I will know if the HS17 will fit in my TV stand.


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> Are you saying if you used an Ethernet cable from the HS17 to a router then an Ethernet cable from the router to the RVU TV that way would work? My TV stand could handle that. I am upgrading to AT&T 45 mbps Monday and they are giving me a new Gateway for that the Pace 5268. It is the same height as the HS17. So I will know if the HS17 will fit in my TV stand.


Considering none of us have a HS-17 it is guesswork if that will work


----------



## Laxguy

P Smith said:


> why then obscure it purpose by assigning an acronym taken from cellular phones, where is everyone knows what is SIM card doing ?
> mistake or ?
> 
> who care of form factor ?
> SIM, mini-SIM, micro-SIM, nano-SIM ... still phone card !


SIM is an acronym derived from _subscriber identification module, _so a perfect fit.

Its main purpose is very similar to those in phones! Joe SD/sixpack will not know or care about form or name of any card used for ID. And more discerning customers will take 2 seconds to figure it out.


----------



## compnurd

Laxguy said:


> SIM is an acronym derived from _subscriber identification module, _so a perfect fit.
> 
> Its main purpose is very similar to those in phones! Joe SD/sixpack will not know or care about form or name of any card used for ID. And more discerning customers will take 2 seconds to figure it out.


Agreed.. people are taking SIM out of context


----------



## James Long

slice1900 said:


> It has nothing to do with AT&T's cellular network.


That is a different argument. Not everything that has a SIM card has to run on a wireless network (cellular/PCS/AWS/etc).

The HS-17 obviously has a SIM card. "Subscriber Identification Module" as noted.



HoTat2 said:


> I think the complaint of course is referring to the decision of no local 4K output on this new server.


That would destroy the definition of "headless" would it not?


----------



## inkahauts

James Long said:


> That is a different argument. Not everything that has a SIM card has to run on a wireless network (cellular/PCS/AWS/etc).
> 
> The HS-17 obviously has a SIM card. "Subscriber Identification Module" as noted.
> 
> That would destroy the definition of "headless" would it not?


Earlier someone specifically said it was to work with att wireless network and that's when I asked him to clarify that it was for att wireless and not a DIRECTV access card.

I don't believe anyone has ever debated it's size and that its size and concept is referred to a SIM card.


----------



## slice1900

Laxguy said:


> SIM is an acronym derived from _subscriber identification module, _so a perfect fit.
> 
> Its main purpose is very similar to those in phones! Joe SD/sixpack will not know or care about form or name of any card used for ID. And more discerning customers will take 2 seconds to figure it out.


Both the access card in a Directv receiver and the SIM card in a phone have the same set of needs. Encryption certificates to link the card to the user for billing/authentication, local storage to save additional use-specific information, and tamper proofing for security.

There is probably no difference hardware-wise between the Directv branded SIMs AT&T supplies in access cards, and the AT&T branded ones you can buy in stores for Go Phones or whatever. They're just pre-programmed a bit differently.


----------



## CraigerM

So are we sure headless is the future of all DTV Servers? Or could they do two models and still have one that outputs to 4k over HDMI?


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> So are we sure headless is the future of all DTV Servers? Or could they do two models and still have one that outputs to 4k over HDMI?


Well, people think that beta testing in peoples homes means its a consumer model, but it doesn't. They aren't going to beta test a new platform in a bar. Imagine if that HS17 BSODs during the Superbowl. Of course, we wouldn't really know if it BSODs since it doesn't have a video out :grinning:.

I'd say its still up in the air. Maybe 51/49 .

Rokstar, if this is in fact a consumer device, do you have any info on if they plan to consider it an outlet or introduce some kind of lease fee for it? I can't imagine DirecTV giving this away for free. How do you charge an outlet fee for something that can't output video?

I bet they try to "hide" the fee by cranking up the DVR cost to $30/mo.


----------



## CraigerM

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, people think that beta testing in peoples homes means its a consumer model, but it doesn't. They aren't going to beta test a new platform in a bar. Imagine if that HS17 BSODs during the Superbowl. Of course, we wouldn't really know if it BSODs since it doesn't have a video out :grinning:.
> 
> I'd say its still up in the air. Maybe 51/49 .
> 
> Rokstar, if this is in fact a consumer device, do you have any info on if they plan to consider it an outlet or introduce some kind of lease fee for it? I can't imagine DirecTV giving this away for free. How do you charge an outlet fee for something that can't output video?
> 
> I bet they try to "hide" the fee by cranking up the DVR cost to $30/mo.


I was thinking maybe they would have two different consumer models? Maybe the HS17 could be for power users and bigger homes?


----------



## Laxguy

Either route, (headless or with 4K output) plus others not in discussion are possible. In all events, I'd rest easy, though.


----------



## ROK5TAR

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, people think that beta testing in peoples homes means its a consumer model, but it doesn't. They aren't going to beta test a new platform in a bar. Imagine if that HS17 BSODs during the Superbowl. Of course, we wouldn't really know if it BSODs since it doesn't have a video out :grinning:.
> 
> I'd say its still up in the air. Maybe 51/49 .
> 
> Rokstar, if this is in fact a consumer device, do you have any info on if they plan to consider it an outlet or introduce some kind of lease fee for it? I can't imagine DirecTV giving this away for free. How do you charge an outlet fee for something that can't output video?
> 
> I bet they try to "hide" the fee by cranking up the DVR cost to $30/mo.


No info on fee or how they would lease it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, people think that beta testing in peoples homes means its a consumer model, but it doesn't. They aren't going to beta test a new platform in a bar. Imagine if that HS17 BSODs during the Superbowl. Of course, we wouldn't really know if it BSODs since it doesn't have a video out :grinning:.
> 
> I'd say its still up in the air. Maybe 51/49 .
> 
> Rokstar, if this is in fact a consumer device, do you have any info on if they plan to consider it an outlet or introduce some kind of lease fee for it? I can't imagine DirecTV giving this away for free. How do you charge an outlet fee for something that can't output video?
> 
> I bet they try to "hide" the fee by cranking up the DVR cost to $30/mo.


The hard drive is leaning me away from this being a commercial model. But they could release a non hard drive model


----------



## CraigerM

Would one way to look at it would DTV want their customers to see such a dramatic change to the server and have the consumer version be headless? Wouldn't the average customer think why isn't the main box connected to the TV?


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> Would one way to look at it would DTV want their customers to see such a dramatic change to the server and have the consumer version be headless? Wouldn't the average customer think why isn't the main box connected to the TV?


I don't think so frankly I don't think 90% of the base cares as long as it works. Most might like the idea of a "mini" at every tv instead of a bigger box at one Me. I currently have my HR54 on my basement TV because my LR tv has the c61. All I would do is add another mini to the basement tv and stick this right next to it since I have a switch there also. Then probably replace my hr24 and h25 with minis As far as pricing. I see this being included in the 25 dollar fee and then each client just 7 a month. There has also been headless systems for cable companies around for awhile also


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> Are you saying if you used an Ethernet cable from the HS17 to a router then an Ethernet cable from the router to the RVU TV that way would work? My TV stand could handle that. I am upgrading to AT&T 45 mbps Monday and they are giving me a new Gateway for that the Pace 5268. It is the same height as the HS17. So I will know if the HS17 will fit in my TV stand.


No different then a current genie. You still wold need a DECA.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

This fits perfectly in the "all included" packages. There is no outlet fees or DVR or HD feeds. Just charge up the Wazzooo for the package. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I'm guessing this will not have PIP?


----------



## SledgeHammer

compnurd said:


> The hard drive is leaning me away from this being a commercial model. But they could release a non hard drive model


Well, there was an argument that bars might like to replay games throughout the day.


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> They're just pre-programmed a bit differently.


Oh ! No !


----------



## espaeth

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, there was an argument that bars might like to replay games throughout the day.


I'm not sure DirecTV is poised to deliver equipment to commercial accounts that would allow them to violate copyright law.

Public viewing is a pretty restrictive. Solid Signal Blog - Can you use a Genie DVR in your bar or restaurant (or tire shop, or hotel, or...)


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, there was an argument that bars might like to replay games throughout the day.


Might like to, but it is actually very much illegal to do so. If you see a bar that has a DVR, one of two illegal things is happening. One, they have a DVR on their commercial account that is supposed to be restricted to 'private viewing' (i.e. the DVR is only viewable in an area where the public isn't allowed, like an office or employee break room) or more likely option two, the owner brought a DVR from their residential account to the bar. Directv sues bars for six figures when they find that happening, especially if they have NFLST (which those illegal accounts almost always do, because it costs so much more for public viewing than it does at home)

There's no way the HS17 is intended solely for the commercial market. Public viewing can't have DVRs, period. Private/business viewing can, but why design a headless one for that market if they were going to use something else in homes? The niche of business accounts that want a DVR is pretty small, so it doesn't make financial sense to build a special model just for commercial accounts with DVRs, and a separate model for home.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the HS17 available for commercial public viewing accounts eventually. But it will probably be called something else since it won't have a hard drive. It might support more clients (perhaps as many as 15) and wireless would probably be disabled.

I still think it makes more sense to have the server be headless, because then as technology is upgraded (i.e. HDMI 2.1 that was recently announced) you don't have to replace the server. If they have a server capable of grabbing 15 SWM tuners, with MoCA 2.0, GbE and wireless AC, along with "enough" RAM and CPU it is pretty much future proof forever. They can use the exact same box in 2027 they use today....what's going to come along and make it no longer suitable?


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> So are we sure headless is the future of all DTV Servers? Or could they do two models and still have one that outputs to 4k over HDMI?


All is a bad word. DIRECTV still has the HR44 even though the HR54 is available. I see no reason why the HS17 has to be the only server in the future.

Anything with a direct output to a TV would not be headless.


----------



## James Long

TheRatPatrol said:


> I'm guessing this will not have PIP?


As a headless server it will not have a picture ... let alone a picture in picture.

But for an RVU it is an interesting question. Would the client have PIP?


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> All is a bad word. DIRECTV still has the HR44 even though the HR54 is available. I see no reason why the HS17 has to be the only server in the future.
> 
> Anything with a direct output to a TV would not be headless.


Yeh, sorry about that. I should have just said the main or latest server.


----------



## longrider

slice1900 said:


> One, they have a DVR on their commercial account that is supposed to be restricted to 'private viewing' (i.e. the DVR is only viewable in an area where the public isn't allowed, like an office or employee break room)


They shut down even that exception about a year ago. I know from personal experience, I work in a motorcycle dealer where we have DirecTV in the customer lounge, employee breakroom and a couple offices. One of the offices had a DVR. When it stopped working as a DVR I called in and was told they did an audit and my account did not qualify. Now only business accounts that are 100% private viewing can have a DVR.


----------



## Rich

longrider said:


> They shut down even that exception about a year ago. I know from personal experience, I work in a motorcycle dealer where we have DirecTV in the customer lounge, employee breakroom and a couple offices. One of the offices had a DVR. When it stopped working as a DVR I called in and was told they did an audit and my account did not qualify. *Now only business accounts that are 100% private viewing can have a DVR*.


Interesting, how is that determined?

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> I still think it makes more sense to have the server be headless, because then as technology is upgraded (i.e. HDMI 2.1 that was recently announced) you don't have to replace the server. If they have a server capable of grabbing 15 SWM tuners, with MoCA 2.0, GbE and wireless AC, along with "enough" RAM and CPU it is pretty much future proof forever. They can use the exact same box in 2027 they use today....what's going to come along and make it no longer suitable?


It doesn't make sense in any way, shape or form.

HDMI isn't the only evolving technology. MoCA will definitely evolve. There was just approved a faster Ethernet standard for the home: 2.5Gbps and 5Gbps (2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T - Wikipedia). Wireless AC in 2027? lol... there's already a new wireless standard coming soon: wireless AX (IEEE 802.11ax - Wikipedia).

We've also discussed that the set up isn't really conducive to single TV homes (aren't you one of those?  -- I believe you mentioned that at some point) or those with more limited space.

Based on 2 major upcoming technologies, the HR17 is ALREADY obsolete. It certainly isn't going to last forever, not to mention 2027.

One other thing I'd like to point out is that upgrading servers is a nice money grab for DirecTV as well. Some people will pay full price since they don't have a free upgrade available. For those customers that aren't in the system as an existing Genie, upgrading to a Genie requires a truck roll ($45) and some people will fall for the PP scam as well. Plus, now you need to buy a HS17 and a client vs buying just one box before.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot... hard drives. Surely by 2027, you'll be able to get a drive much larger then 2TB for very cheap. SSDs also continue to go down in price. Only the latest gen M.2 SSDs are still expensive. The cheapest ones are only slightly more expensive then hard drives.


----------



## ROK5TAR

There is no pip with hs17. I looked for it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JosephB

The other aspect to whether or not this is meant primarily or even significantly for commercial is the fact that it has that plastic case and wireless

If this was meant to be some kind of commercial distribution system, regardless of private or public viewing, it'd be rack mount and wouldn't have wireless. 

I don't buy that sports bars need something like this anyway. Seems that most of them probably just mount the receiver to the back of the TV or has all of the receivers in one location and then distributes the video in some other way (cat5 hdmi baluns, etc). 

I suppose this could be helpful if a bar bought all TVs that had RVU, but this is very obviously meant for residential first.


----------



## James Long

JosephB said:


> If this was meant to be some kind of commercial distribution system, regardless of private or public viewing, it'd be rack mount and wouldn't have wireless.


People seem to forget that. Perhaps they have not seen a professional wiring rack. Not that every commercial location has one ... but they should.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> It doesn't make sense in any way, shape or form.
> 
> HDMI isn't the only evolving technology. MoCA will definitely evolve. There was just approved a faster Ethernet standard for the home: 2.5Gbps and 5Gbps (2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T - Wikipedia). Wireless AC in 2027? lol... there's already a new wireless standard coming soon: wireless AX (IEEE 802.11ax - Wikipedia).
> 
> We've also discussed that the set up isn't really conducive to single TV homes (aren't you one of those?  -- I believe you mentioned that at some point) or those with more limited space.
> 
> Based on 2 major upcoming technologies, the HR17 is ALREADY obsolete. It certainly isn't going to last forever, not to mention 2027.
> 
> One other thing I'd like to point out is that upgrading servers is a nice money grab for DirecTV as well. Some people will pay full price since they don't have a free upgrade available. For those customers that aren't in the system as an existing Genie, upgrading to a Genie requires a truck roll ($45) and some people will fall for the PP scam as well. Plus, now you need to buy a HS17 and a client vs buying just one box before.
> 
> EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot... hard drives. Surely by 2027, you'll be able to get a drive much larger then 2TB for very cheap. SSDs also continue to go down in price. Only the latest gen M.2 SSDs are still expensive. The cheapest ones are only slightly more expensive then hard drives.


2027? Lasting forever in this day and age is anywhere between 5 and 7 years. Which they have more than done with all their exhausting models.

I think the device to look at is the c61. I fully believe they went that route because of its hvec decoder. The hr54 would even still work with hdr signals if you simply upgrade the c61 to say a c71 that was able to output hdr. I think that's why they have gone this route with 4k.

They know the infrastructure they have in place will handle many things but the decoding at the tv needs to be very felixaeble for future stuff. I'm sure tvs with decoders built in is also a big consideration.

People still use wireless n today. It works for many things. I wouldn't worry about the wireless abilities if the hr54. Not Ethernet speeds. Those things matter in massive volume. Another reason why I believe dtv has always wanted to use its own deca cloud. No worries about speeds. I believe moca 2 could even handle 8k. The only big worry is if it can decode the types of signals that it will receive.

Did you happen to see what atsc 3.0 did this week? They adopted rules that allow four or five and future unknown versions of hdr to be in the standard from what I read. Just another reason to make upgrading for the decoding easier. Because if atsc is allowing it so will sat and cable eventually.


----------



## longrider

Rich said:


> Interesting, how is that determined?
> 
> Rich


How you use the service could only be verified by a visit but basically they have three types of accounts (I am relying on memory here, they have taken all the details offline and just give a form to fill out to have a salesman contact you) First is Private Viewing where only employees can view the service. This is the one that allows a DVR. Second is Business Viewing where customers can see the TVs but your primary business is not entertainment. My business is an example of that, another common one is a doctors office waiting area. This is the account that you used to be able to put a DVR in a private area. Third is Commercial Viewing which is businesses whose primary business is "entertainment", think bars and restaurants. DVRs were never allowed here.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> They know the infrastructure they have in place will handle many things but the decoding at the tv needs to be very felixaeble for future stuff. I'm sure tvs with decoders built in is also a big consideration.


You'll never build anything that can handle future stuff indefinitely. Some stuff you can upgrade via firmware, but it just doesn't make sense to do that for too long since everything else in the device becomes "obsolete" by then. Just ask the folks who fell for the Samsung Evolution scam for example.



inkahauts said:


> People still use wireless n today. It works for many things. I wouldn't worry about the wireless abilities if the hr54. Not Ethernet speeds. Those things matter in massive volume.


It doesn't really... most N devices top out at around 100Mbps real world and that's if you are right at the router. If you go through a few walls, some distance, etc. You're more like 10Mbps.



inkahauts said:


> Did you happen to see what atsc 3.0 did this week? They adopted rules that allow four or five and future unknown versions of hdr to be in the standard from what I read. Just another reason to make upgrading for the decoding easier. Because if atsc is allowing it so will sat and cable eventually.


If the protocol is well designed, the server or client doesn't need to support anything specifically. Only the TV does. The DVR and Client are just passing through the data without knowing anything about it. It's only when you can't fit it in the existing signal that you run into trouble.

Besides, if you have a TV from < 2015, you likely don't have HDR at all. 2015 is mostly just HDR10. Some 2016 models do both HDR10 and Dolby Vision. Some 2017 models do 3 or 4 of the current flavors. If your TV doesn't support the flavor, then you won't be able to use it.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> You'll never build anything that can handle future stuff indefinitely. Some stuff you can upgrade via firmware, but it just doesn't make sense to do that for too long since everything else in the device becomes "obsolete" by then.
> 
> It doesn't really... most N devices top out at around 100Mbps real world and that's if you are right at the router. If you go through a few walls, some distance, etc. You're more like 10Mbps.
> 
> If the protocol is well designed, the server or client doesn't need to support anything specifically. Only the TV does. The DVR and Client are just passing through the data without knowing anything about it. It's only when you can't fit it in the existing signal that you run into trouble.
> 
> Besides, if you have a TV from < 2015, you likely don't have HDR at all. 2015 is mostly just HDR10. Some 2016 models do both HDR10 and Dolby Vision. Some 2017 models do 3 or 4 of the current flavors. If your TV doesn't support the flavor, then you won't be able to use it.


And that's my point. The tv gets upgraded and bam it'll work. They won't need to replace their DVR and recordings. (For RVU. Or the client if no RVU)

And protocol can't account for new decoding chips for things like hvec.

Plus I bet those get better and more efficient in the next year or two.


----------



## CraigerM

Would it be okay to have the gateway and the HS17 in a enclosed space behind a door? Would WIFI work or would it overheat. This entertainment center looks cool. In the description it says their are holes for cables behind the doors. I have other furniture from this company that I like.


----------



## ROK5TAR

CraigerM said:


> Would it be okay to have the gateway and the HS17 in a enclosed space behind a door? Would WIFI work or would it overheat. This entertainment center looks cool. It says their are holes for cables behind the doors. I have other furniture from this company that I like.


I wouldn't. All electronics need ventilation

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

ROK5TAR said:


> I wouldn't. All electronics need ventilation
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, that's what I thought. I wondered why the description said their were holes for cable management behind those doors? However, if those enclosures were wide and long enough could they still provide plenty of ventilation?


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> Would it be okay to have the gateway and the HS17 in a enclosed space behind a door? Would WIFI work or would it overheat. This entertainment center looks cool. In the description it says their are holes for cables behind the doors. I have other furniture from this company that I like.


The H17 is no different than any other piece of electronics. So if you would not put your PlayStation inside, why then you would think it will be OK to put any other electronics inside.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> Thanks, that's what I thought. I wondered why the description said their were holes for cable management behind those doors? However, if those enclosures were wide and long enough could they still provide plenty of ventilation?


Perhaps the holes are in the middle section.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

ROK5TAR said:


> I wouldn't. All electronics need ventilation


Not "all". I have all my equipment behind closed doors with glass (5 disc CD player, BluRay player, 130 watt AVR, AM21, HR24) and nothing except the HR24 ever even gets slightly warm. For the HR24, I had to stick a PC fan behind it to keep the temp down.

The DVRs get hot because they stick hard drives and power supplies all in the case.

Does the HS17 have an external power brick?


----------



## CraigerM

peds48 said:


> Perhaps the holes are in the middle section.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They had them in the middle section also. I couldn't tell if they only had one in the middle section or three. Now that I think about it if they only had one in the middle I wouldn't like that stand anyway.


----------



## ROK5TAR

SledgeHammer said:


> Not "all". I have all my equipment behind closed doors with glass (5 disc CD player, BluRay player, 130 watt AVR, AM21, HR24) and nothing except the HR24 ever even gets slightly warm. For the HR24, I had to stick a PC fan behind it to keep the temp down.
> 
> The DVRs get hot because they stick hard drives and power supplies all in the case.
> 
> Does the HS17 have an external power brick?


Doesn't mean they don't need ventilation. Hs17 is powered just like hr54

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

ROK5TAR said:


> Doesn't mean they don't need ventilation. Hs17 is powered just like hr54


if it require 50W then it will be OK keep it in a closet


----------



## slice1900

Rich said:


> Interesting, how is that determined?
> 
> Rich


Its easy to determine if they are public viewing - you know you are public viewing so you pay for it. Because if you don't, and you get caught, you'll be in a world of hurt dealing with lawyers.

My understanding was that I could get a DVR if it was kept in the office, but I never tried to actually do it. Sounds like maybe they decided that any public viewing accounts that had a DVR were told they couldn't do that anymore. Maybe the idea being that if they hear about a bar that plays recordings (I saw on the other site someone said Hockeytown in Detroit did this) that they would know for sure someone brought a residential receiver there so there's no possible "oops, I didn't know I couldn't bring that DVR out of the office" excuse. They can turn it over to their lawyers immediately.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> It doesn't make sense in any way, shape or form.
> 
> HDMI isn't the only evolving technology. MoCA will definitely evolve. There was just approved a faster Ethernet standard for the home: 2.5Gbps and 5Gbps (2.5GBASE-T and 5GBASE-T - Wikipedia). Wireless AC in 2027? lol... there's already a new wireless standard coming soon: wireless AX (IEEE 802.11ax - Wikipedia).
> 
> We've also discussed that the set up isn't really conducive to single TV homes (aren't you one of those?  -- I believe you mentioned that at some point) or those with more limited space.
> 
> Based on 2 major upcoming technologies, the HR17 is ALREADY obsolete. It certainly isn't going to last forever, not to mention 2027.


Faster MoCA or wifi standards irrelevant - they won't need more speed than what MoCA 2.0 or 802.11ac provides. Well, maybe if a bunch of 8Kp120 channels come around, but I wouldn't hold my breath 

Just because newer technologies exist, doesn't mean they need to be adopted. Directv didn't adopt MoCA 2.0 until now, because they didn't need it until 4K channels using 30 Mbps came on the radar. If it wasn't for that, they'd still use MoCA 1.1 because the ~140 Mbps it is capable of is plenty for HD channels that average around 6.5 Mbps each. Nor is there any reason to upgrade beyond gigabit ethernet. There would be exactly zero benefit to upgrading it in your Directv box.

And yes, I'm a single TV household, but I wouldn't pitch a fit if I had to have an extra box. I admit I'd be very annoyed if I was a Directv customer and wanted 4K service, since I'd have to pay for a second TV I couldn't use, but that won't be the case with the HS17. I find it hard to believe anyone is so space limited they couldn't find a place for this thing. Maybe someone who lives in a closet in NYC...



SledgeHammer said:


> EDIT: Oh yeah, I almost forgot... hard drives. Surely by 2027, you'll be able to get a drive much larger then 2TB for very cheap. SSDs also continue to go down in price. Only the latest gen M.2 SSDs are still expensive. The cheapest ones are only slightly more expensive then hard drives.


Sure you'll be able to get bigger hard drives, and they can use a different hard drive in the HS17 without changing the rest of it.


----------



## slice1900

ROK5TAR said:


> There is no pip with hs17. I looked for it


There's two ways they could do PiP or "sports bar mode" with it. One, have it use 2/4 tuners to build an image, compress it with MPEG4/HEVC, and send it to a client. Two, have a "super client" that grabs 2/4 tuners and creates the image itself. The first is unlikely, since you'd need to have hardware support since the CPU wouldn't be fast enough to do real time video compression and I doubt any satellite SoCs support that (but maybe someday, who knows) The second is possible but who knows if it they'd ever do it...


----------



## slice1900

JosephB said:


> The other aspect to whether or not this is meant primarily or even significantly for commercial is the fact that it has that plastic case and wireless
> 
> If this was meant to be some kind of commercial distribution system, regardless of private or public viewing, it'd be rack mount and wouldn't have wireless.


All the commercial gear Directv has built so far is identical to the residential, unless you count the COM2000 which is AFAIK not used in sports bars but rather places like hotels and nursing homes. If you buy the "commercial" version of the H25 you get the exact same hardware, it runs the exact same software (but acts a little bit differently since it knows your account is commercial and disables options for stuff like power saving since you don't want the screen saver going off in a bar)

If they build a commercial version of the HS17, it will be the same device except without a hard drive installed and wifi hardware will be there but will probably be disabled in software because it knows your account is commercial. I'd be surprised if it isn't the same plastic tower. I'd just stand a few of them next to each other on a shelf in my wiring closet, instead of stacking them on top of each other. That's probably better for airflow anyway...


----------



## HoTat2

Little confused here ...

While I can guess at possibly why, someone know for sure why DIRECTV will not allow a DVR in sports bar type commercial establishments, but does allow it on DRE systems for the hotel and lodging commercial establishments? 

(HR24s and H25s with USB flash drives)

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> All the commercial gear Directv has built so far is identical to the residential, unless you count the COM2000 which is AFAIK not used in sports bars but rather places like hotels and nursing homes. If you buy the "commercial" version of the H25 you get the exact same hardware, it runs the exact same software (but acts a little bit differently since it knows your account is commercial and disables options for stuff like power saving since you don't want the screen saver going off in a bar)
> 
> If they build a commercial version of the HS17, it will be the same device except without a hard drive installed and wifi hardware will be there but will probably be disabled in software because it knows your account is commercial. I'd be surprised if it isn't the same plastic tower. I'd just stand a few of them next to each other on a shelf in my wiring closet, instead of stacking them on top of each other. That's probably better for airflow anyway...


I think the firmware for the HR24s and H25s used on DRE systems is somewhat different in that they support communication over MoCA with a system management server if that option is selected by the hotel or lodging facility.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> until 4K channels using 30 Mbps came on the radar.


Does someone measured it ?
Seems to me it's doubled to compare with many different sat channels (include Extreme Sport) from different providers in Europe. Most of all taking around 18 Mbps.
Are they use more sufficient codecs then US providers and put two-three 4K channels per 8PSK tpn ?


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> All the commercial gear Directv has built so far is identical to the residential, unless you count the COM2000 which is AFAIK not used in sports bars but rather places like hotels and nursing homes. If you buy the "commercial" version of the H25 you get the exact same hardware, it runs the exact same software (but acts a little bit differently since it knows your account is commercial and disables options for stuff like power saving since you don't want the screen saver going off in a bar)
> 
> If they build a commercial version of the HS17, it will be the same device except without a hard drive installed and wifi hardware will be there but will probably be disabled in software because it knows your account is commercial. I'd be surprised if it isn't the same plastic tower. I'd just stand a few of them next to each other on a shelf in my wiring closet, instead of stacking them on top of each other. That's probably better for airflow anyway...


I get all that, but that would be a modified HS17...one that started out as a residential unit and would be modified for the commercial market. If it started out for the commercial market, it likely would be closer to a rackmount unit without wireless, etc, which is my point to those talking about this being intended for commercial uses...it may end up being used in commercial installs at some point with DVR disabled, but, this was not designed or built to start out as a commercial device, but instead as a residential server.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Nor is there any reason to upgrade beyond gigabit ethernet. There would be exactly zero benefit to upgrading it in your Directv box.


Why not? Gigabit internet is rolling out in 2017 - 2018 across the country with Docsis 3.1 and fiber. Both technologies scale higher. Docsis 3.1 to 10Gbps.

When you are connected to the internet, search happens in the cloud, VOD and other services as well like start over, etc. Yes, they "work now", but for example, I have 175Mbps down right now, and watching an HD show on Netflix takes about 15 seconds or more to buffer. 4K even more. Why wouldn't you want to improve that experience down to a second or less?


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Sure you'll be able to get bigger hard drives, and they can use a different hard drive in the HS17 without changing the rest of it.


Not if they go M.2, which they'll have to at some point in the future if they go SSD, since that's where SSD is headed. Another technology to help improve the user experience and reduce heat . Right now you can get the fastest SSD there is, 3500Mbps for $630 in 1TB. Surely by 2027, that'll come down in price considerably? 

If you think we don't need an improved user experience, you should really all the posts complaining about the DVRs being slow. On my box, it sometimes takes 3 or 4 seconds just to move ONE SQUARE in the guide. No, my box isn't dying and I keep it mostly empty since I watch stuff fast. That's just the nature of sticking cheap / slow tech in there.

Surely the user experience will be even worse when I have a gun pointed to my head to use server / client architecture. (Based on peoples current complaints on the clients).


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> And yes, I'm a single TV household, but I wouldn't pitch a fit if I had to have an extra box. I admit I'd be very annoyed if I was a Directv customer and wanted 4K service, since I'd have to pay for a second TV I couldn't use, but that won't be the case with the HS17.


Are you sure about that? You really think DirecTV will give you the HS17 for free? Magic 8 ball says "Chances are not good". AT&T & DirecTV like to nickel and dime customers with "random fees" that other companies don't (as much). If I had to guess based on all signs available today, I'd be willing to bet that the HS17 will be included "for free" in the $25 (or more) ARS fee, but you'll have to pay for each client. See what I did there? I hid a $7/mo increase from you DirecTV style. That's how DirecTV operates, they like to use tricky wording to hide fees and see if customers are dumb enough to fall for it (see All Included Pricing).


----------



## HoTat2

SledgeHammer said:


> Not if they go M.2, which they'll have to at some point in the future if they go SSD, since that's where SSD is headed. Another technology to help improve the user experience and reduce heat . Right now you can get the fastest SSD there is, 3500Mbps for $630 in 1TB. Surely by 2027, that'll come down in price considerably?  ...


I thought the main issue with using SSDs for DVR applications has never been about required speed of which SSDs are already of course superior to the electromechanical nature of HDDs.

But the high number of necessary R/W cycles they can sustain before wearing out which will always be inherently inferior to HDDs?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Are you sure about that? You really think DirecTV will give you the HS17 for free? Magic 8 ball says "Chances are not good". AT&T & DirecTV like to nickel and dime customers with "random fees" that other companies don't (as much). If I had to guess based on all signs available today, I'd be willing to bet that the HS17 will be included "for free" in the $25 (or more) ARS fee, but you'll have to pay for each client. See what I did there? I hid a $7/mo increase from you DirecTV style. That's how DirecTV operates, they like to use tricky wording to hide fees and see if customers are dumb enough to fall for it (see All Included Pricing).


Receivers fees are not included in the ARS fee. Folks on that legacy system pay the ARS fee plus receivers fee. Currently DIRECTV is using the all
Included platform where all the fees including up to X amount of rooms as part of your programming package

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

HoTat2 said:


> But the high number of necessary R/W cycles they can sustain before wearing out which will always be inherently inferior to HDDs?


The Samsung 960 Pro (latest gen drive on the market) has an endurance rating of 1200TB on the 2TB model. Wouldn't that be something like 240,000 hrs of HD recordings?


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Receivers fees are not included in the ARS fee. Folks on that legacy system pay the ARS fee plus receivers fee. Currently DIRECTV is using the all
> Included platform where all the fees including up to X amount of rooms as part of your programming package


Yeah, but aren't they pre-specified numbers? 2 / 4? So if you have one receiver, you pay the "up to 2" pricing, and if you have three, you pay the "up to 4" pricing. So unless you have exactly 2 or 4, you're paying for an extra outlet you aren't using, no?


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, but aren't they pre-specified numbers? 2 / 4? So if you have one receiver, you pay the "up to 2" pricing, and if you have three, you pay the "up to 4" pricing. So unless you have exactly 2 or 4, you're paying for an extra outlet you aren't using, no?


Right. Or at least that is how is sounds like. Although I am not sure how new structure applies to single TV accounts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tylorert

peds48 said:


> Right. Or at least that is how is sounds like. Although I am not sure how new structure applies to single TV accounts.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So, I need to catch up, (I am a little out of date on this) sorry for pushing this to ot, anyway, what are the specs on this thing? What does it do? Features? I believe it's a server? Is it an addtion to the HR-2* and above? Do the "clients" use it for expansion? Thanks!


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Right. Or at least that is how is sounds like. Although I am not sure how new structure applies to single TV accounts.


Classic shady AT&T / DirecTV business tactics. Along the lines of their internet claims. My parents were at Costco this weekend and they said a DirecTV sales guy tried to sell them on DirecTV & AT&T. They want to reduce thier bill a bit, so they heard him out... he said AT&T only goes up to 45Mbps in thier area... my dad knows he gets over 200Mbps... but the salesman claimed AT&T 45Mbps is faster then TimeWarner 200Mbps sheesh... like come on... cable slows down in peak hours by a bit... but nowhere near that. My dad was asking me how is 45Mbps supposed to be faster then 200Mbps. LOL... they do the same thing whenever I call in about billing errors. 75Mbps > 175Mbps. Then when you tell them its not, they say "Ok, but 75Mbps is good enough". Sheesh.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tylorert said:


> So, I need to catch up, (I am a little out of date on this) sorry for pushing this to ot, anyway, what are the specs on this thing? What does it do? Features? I believe it's a server? Is it an addtion to the HR-2* and above? Do the "clients" use it for expansion? Thanks!


You mean the HS17? Oh yeah, that's what this thread is about . It's a replacement for the HR54, except it doesn't have a video output, you are required to go through the clients.


----------



## tylorert

SledgeHammer said:


> You mean the HS17? Oh yeah, that's what this thread is about . It's a replacement for the HR54, except it doesn't have a video output, you are required to go through the clients.


What is the HDD size? I expect over 1-2TB. Can you have an HR54? How many 4k Streams?


----------



## ROK5TAR

2tb, 2 4K streams and no 54 with it. It replaces it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tylorert

ROK5TAR said:


> 2tb, 2 4K streams and no 54 with it. It replaces it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can a HR-24 connect to it? Can another NON-Client DVR/Recever read recordings?


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Classic shady AT&T / DirecTV business tactics.


As I said before, to be fair I don't know how DIRECTV is handling one TV with their all included packages. Regarding the internet speeds, a salesman is a salesman. I always recommend folks to do their own homework and never rely on whatever comes out of a salesman mouth.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

tylorert said:


> What is the HDD size? I expect over 1-2TB. Can you have an HR54? How many 4k Streams?


Everything is laid out nicely on this thread. Thanks a few minutes to go over instead of having folks repeat have has already been said.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JosephB

SSD on a DVR is a really, really, really dumb idea. There is no speed bottleneck at the bitrates of even 4K video, and SSDs are still significantly more expensive at the sizes that HD DVRs need.


----------



## ROK5TAR

tylorert said:


> Can a HR-24 connect to it? Can another NON-Client DVR/Recever read recordings?


It should but no way to test. They only allow hs17 in system with clients. If cust has other boxes theyre using we have to install new dish for just hs17. Also it takes 11 tuners so you would only end up with 2 boxes (non client) max

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Little confused here ...
> 
> While I can guess at possibly why, someone know for sure why DIRECTV will not allow a DVR in sports bar type commercial establishments, but does allow it on DRE systems for the hotel and lodging commercial establishments?
> 
> (HR24s and H25s with USB flash drives)
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Sports bar and hotel are different account types, and have different copyright regulations. I would guess that each room is considered "private" in a hotel, thus functions are allowed there which are not allowed in a public viewing account like sports bars. As for why the regulations are what they are, you'd have to ask Congress


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> I think the firmware for the HR24s and H25s used on DRE systems is somewhat different in that they support communication over MoCA with a system management server if that option is selected by the hotel or lodging facility.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


True, but DRE systems are special. I was talking about commercial as in public viewing, since that's what I have experience with.


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> Does someone measured it ?
> Seems to me it's doubled to compare with many different sat channels (include Extreme Sport) from different providers in Europe. Most of all taking around 18 Mbps.
> Are they use more sufficient codecs then US providers and put two-three 4K channels per 8PSK tpn ?


Directv is the one who said they would be using 30 Mbps. Maybe Directv is providing better 4K quality than the European providers?


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> SSD on a DVR is a really, really, really dumb idea. There is no speed bottleneck at the bitrates of even 4K video, and SSDs are still significantly more expensive at the sizes that HD DVRs need.


There isn't? I have a HR24 and even when I'm not recording anything, the thing slows to a crawl when a background task is going on. You're also thinking HD... 4K is supposed to be 30Mbps, so you won't be able to do more than 4 reads with a hard drive on your best day. Probably closer to 3 since they tend to put slower / cooler / cheaper drives in. Plus, you solve the heat problem. Only real issue is the cost. Like everything else, they'll come down in price.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Why not? Gigabit internet is rolling out in 2017 - 2018 across the country with Docsis 3.1 and fiber. Both technologies scale higher. Docsis 3.1 to 10Gbps.
> 
> When you are connected to the internet, search happens in the cloud, VOD and other services as well like start over, etc. Yes, they "work now", but for example, I have 175Mbps down right now, and watching an HD show on Netflix takes about 15 seconds or more to buffer. 4K even more. Why wouldn't you want to improve that experience down to a second or less?


If it takes 15 seconds with a 175 Mb connection, I can promise you it won't drop to 1 second if you speed it up to 10 GHz. Likely a lot of it is latency related - i.e. exchange of authentication information before you start streaming.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Not if they go M.2, which they'll have to at some point in the future if they go SSD, since that's where SSD is headed. Another technology to help improve the user experience and reduce heat . Right now you can get the fastest SSD there is, 3500Mbps for $630 in 1TB. Surely by 2027, that'll come down in price considerably?
> 
> If you think we don't need an improved user experience, you should really all the posts complaining about the DVRs being slow. On my box, it sometimes takes 3 or 4 seconds just to move ONE SQUARE in the guide. No, my box isn't dying and I keep it mostly empty since I watch stuff fast. That's just the nature of sticking cheap / slow tech in there.
> 
> Surely the user experience will be even worse when I have a gun pointed to my head to use server / client architecture. (Based on peoples current complaints on the clients).


What's the benefit of putting an SSD in a DVR? Going faster won't make the DVR any faster, and definitely won't help "3-4 seconds to move one square in the guide". The guide is obviously held in RAM not disk (otherwise how would receivers have a guide) and the reason it is so slow is ****ty software. A faster ethernet connection, faster hard drive, even faster CPU won't help that much. Writing better software would. But Directv has never cared about software quality before, unless AT&T changes their mind they still won't with the HS17.

Assuming the SSD was cheaper than a hard drive AND had enough write life to last 5-6 years, then they'll switch. Until that happens they'll stick with hard drives, because an SSD will do nothing for a DVR. The reason they benefit PCs is because they have no seek time so they do small reads/writes a couple orders of magnitude faster. You'd see exactly the same speed up on your PC replacing a hard drive with an SSD if you limited the SSD to 100 MB/sec sequential read/write, because sequential I/O is rarely a bottleneck in PC. Even 30 Mbps for a 4K channel is only 8MB/sec, so you aren't being limited by a hard drive in any way.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Are you sure about that? You really think DirecTV will give you the HS17 for free? Magic 8 ball says "Chances are not good". AT&T & DirecTV like to nickel and dime customers with "random fees" that other companies don't (as much). If I had to guess based on all signs available today, I'd be willing to bet that the HS17 will be included "for free" in the $25 (or more) ARS fee, but you'll have to pay for each client. See what I did there? I hid a $7/mo increase from you DirecTV style. That's how DirecTV operates, they like to use tricky wording to hide fees and see if customers are dumb enough to fall for it (see All Included Pricing).


The fees will be what they'll be, but with the HS17 I won't be paying two "per TV" fees since the HS17 won't incur such a fee like I'd have to do if I wanted 4K today with the HR54 solution.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> If it takes 15 seconds with a 175 Mb connection, I can promise you it won't drop to 1 second if you speed it up to 10 GHz. Likely a lot of it is latency related - i.e. exchange of authentication information before you start streaming.


You authenticate when you logon to the Netflix app. The 15 seconds is soley the video buffering. If I have a 10Gbps connection to Netflix, you can bet your bottom dollar buffering time will "theoretically" drop to almost 0. The issue then would be if the Netflix hardware infrastructure and the playback device can keep up. At the end of the day, if you have a 175Mbps connection now and move to a 10Gbps connection, data will be transfered exactly 58.5 times faster. Latency comes in to play if you have to go through a lot of hops which is why Netflix has servers distributed across the country to solve that problem .


----------



## dpeters11

SledgeHammer said:


> You authenticate when you logon to the Netflix app. The 15 seconds is soley the video buffering. If I have a 10Gbps connection to Netflix, you can bet your bottom dollar buffering time will "theoretically" drop to almost 0. The issue then would be if the Netflix hardware infrastructure and the playback device can keep up. At the end of the day, if you have a 175Mbps connection now and move to a 10Gbps connection, data will be transfered exactly 58.5 times faster. Latency comes in to play if you have to go through a lot of hops which is why Netflix has servers distributed across the country to solve that problem .


I don't have gigabit, only 100mbit but when I launch an episode of Luke Cage or something, there's no buffering but the video is crappy for a few seconds in the opening credits, then is full 4K HDR the rest of the way through.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> The fees will be what they'll be, but with the HS17 I won't be paying two "per TV" fees since the HS17 won't incur such a fee like I'd have to do if I wanted 4K today with the HR54 solution.


They may not word it that way, but you will be most likely. If your bill goes up $7/mo, you are paying an extra outlet fee whether you want to call it that or use some fancy DirecTV marketing fluff like a "auxilarly, lunar, regional spot beam vertically oriented receiver fee", $7/mo extra for a HR54 -> HS17 is an extra outlet fee.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> There isn't? I have a HR24 and even when I'm not recording anything, the thing slows to a crawl when a background task is going on. You're also thinking HD... 4K is supposed to be 30Mbps, so you won't be able to do more than 4 reads with a hard drive on your best day. Probably closer to 3 since they tend to put slower / cooler / cheaper drives in. Plus, you solve the heat problem. Only real issue is the cost. Like everything else, they'll come down in price.


Your speed problem is you have an HR24. Ssd wouldn't help enough for the cost to make it worth it unless the costs drop to radars platter drives.

Your reasons for wanting higher speed networks and such don't add up. I don't have to wait 15 seconds ever for streaming on Netflix using my Apple TV or an app on my phone etc. I think you have something else happening. Either a big latency problem, a dns server issue (my internet slowed down suddenly even though it reported same high speeds. I change to open dns in the router and bam got much faster again. ) you need giga networks if you have 20 people accessing a lot of content at once. But you already have more bandwidth than you ever use at once. So you need to look at the other causes of speed like latency / ping etc.

Maybe you have a modem or router issue.

Also try disconnecting your HR24 from internet see if that helps it. And do you use Boolean searches on it at all? This are speed killers on non genies. Just devastating to their speed.

I really think you've got a slower experience than the majority in general based on your Netflix comment. Mine is almost instant and I have 60 speed down and maybe 5 up.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Your reasons for wanting higher speed networks and such don't add up. I don't have to wait 15 seconds ever for streaming on Netflix using my Apple TV or an app on my phone etc. I think you have something else happening. Either a big latency problem, a dns server issue (my internet slowed down suddenly even though it reported same high speeds. I change to open dns in the router and bam got much faster again. ) you need giga networks if you have 20 people accessing a lot of content at once. But you already have more bandwidth than you ever use at once. So you need to look at the other causes of speed like latency / ping etc.


I'll time it again tonight... but I was watching some How I Met Your Mother Episodes yesterday and it was taking long to buffer the video. I hooked a PC up to the bridge and the TV and ran speed test and I was getting a solid 175Mbps. I'll also test it with 4K.



inkahauts said:


> Also try disconnecting your HR24 from internet see if that helps it. And do you use Boolean searches on it at all? This are speed killers on non genies. Just devastating to their speed.


I leave my HR24 off the internet since the cloud search is always broken. I just do Title & Other Episode searches.



inkahauts said:


> I really think you've got a slower experience than the majority in general based on your Netflix comment. Mine is almost instant and I have 60 speed down and maybe 5 up.


I remember reading something that its throttled by default and you have to change some setting somewhere? Oh well, I'm cancelling the service. There really isn't much to watch on there. I know, I'm in the minority in that too LOL ... but they don't have new movies and in my one month trial, I've probably searched for like 50 movies and they didn't have any of them.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> The guide is obviously held in RAM not disk (otherwise how would receivers have a guide) and the reason it is so slow is ****ty software. A faster ethernet connection, faster hard drive, even faster CPU won't help that much. Writing better software would. But Directv has never cared about software quality before, unless AT&T changes their mind they still won't with the HS17.


Obviously? Why does the guide stay there when you reboot?  How much memory does the HR24 have? Don't the non-DVR / non Genie boxes only have basic guide data vs. the DVRs & Genies that have extended guide data? No way you can hold 2 weeks of extended guide data in memory with the limited memory on a DVR. Titles, short descriptions, long descriptions, cast, actor info, thumbnails, ratings, various flags, air dates, etc. If you are just talking raw data with no structure, there's got to be at least 2gb of data to cover 2 weeks for every channel. The OS has to run, all the various background tasks have to run, etc.

I believe when your box is connected to the internet it:

1) pulls VOD
2) pulls guide data from the cloud
3) does guide searches in the cloud
4) does program restarts from the cloud


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> You authenticate when you logon to the Netflix app. The 15 seconds is soley the video buffering. If I have a 10Gbps connection to Netflix, you can bet your bottom dollar buffering time will "theoretically" drop to almost 0. The issue then would be if the Netflix hardware infrastructure and the playback device can keep up. At the end of the day, if you have a 175Mbps connection now and move to a 10Gbps connection, data will be transfered exactly 58.5 times faster. Latency comes in to play if you have to go through a lot of hops which is why Netflix has servers distributed across the country to solve that problem .


I'm talking per stream authentication, like DRM stuff, not logging in.

Saying "data will be transferred 58.5 times faster" if you upgraded your 175 Mbps connection to 10 Gbps is ludicrous. You do realize that there are pretty much no sites on the internet that you can pull data from at even a gigabit, let alone 10? Do you really think that Netflix is going to let individuals download the first minute (or however much it buffers before it starts playing...anyone know?) at 10 gigabits? That assumes your cable provider will even offer 10 gigabit connections. Just because DOCSIS 3.1 is capable of it doesn't mean it will be a product. There's no use case for home internet connections of even a gigabit (other than "I want Netflix to start faster") I've asked a million times over the years no one can point to anything other than some hand wavey "build it and they will come".

The growth in demand for bandwidth has been all about feeding our senses with richer data - from plain text to basic HTML to MP3 to low quality video streaming and rich HTML and now to high quality streaming video. Problem is, there is nothing richer for our senses than video. Unless you think we'll go from HD to 4K to 8K to 16K and up and up, "just because", there just won't be any growth past 4K because the demand isn't there. Maybe we'll do some 360* immersive VR but that still only needs to feed at most 4K per eye it won't feed all 360* only where we're looking plus maybe a bit extra around the edges so there isn't a delay when we turn. What that means is that we're pretty close to the pinnacle of bandwidth demand. It is hard to imagine how home users will consume even a gigabit, let alone 10. I suppose Comcast might sell 10 gigabit for $500 just to make money off stupid people with money to burn, but it will serve no purpose unless you think $500 is worth it to start your Netflix stream a few seconds earlier.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> I'll time it again tonight... but I was watching some How I Met Your Mother Episodes yesterday and it was taking long to buffer the video. I hooked a PC up to the bridge and the TV and ran speed test and I was getting a solid 175Mbps. I'll also test it with 4K.


Speedtest is not always useful - a lot of ISPs will prioritize traffic to the Speedtest sites just to make themselves look good. Visit The Linux Kernel Archives and download the latest kernel source archive (about 90MB compressed) and see if you still get 175 Mbps. It has a 10 gigabit connection peered with pretty much everyone, so you should be able to download that in less than 5 seconds.

It could also be that your ISP is deliberately hobbling Netflix, trying to encourage people to use their preferred streaming partners or their own VOD if it is a cable company. It has happened before, and now that net neutrality is off the table with the change in FCC control, that sort of thing will definitely be back!


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Obviously? Why does the guide stay there when you reboot?  How much memory does the HR24 have? Don't the non-DVR / non Genie boxes only have basic guide data vs. the DVRs & Genies that have extended guide data? No way you can hold 2 weeks of extended guide data in memory with the limited memory on a DVR. Titles, short descriptions, long descriptions, cast, actor info, thumbnails, ratings, various flags, air dates, etc. If you are just talking raw data with no structure, there's got to be at least 2gb of data to cover 2 weeks for every channel. The OS has to run, all the various background tasks have to run, etc.
> 
> I believe when your box is connected to the internet it:
> 
> 1) pulls VOD
> 2) pulls guide data from the cloud
> 3) does guide searches in the cloud
> 4) does program restarts from the cloud


Its news to me if an internet connected box is pulling guide data from the cloud. Regardless of where it gets it from, and maybe all the extra crap is saved to disk, but the basic guide data you get when you hit 'guide' is coming from RAM. Otherwise how do my H24s that don't have internet access or hard drives have guide data? DVRs have like two weeks of guide data, and my H20s only have about three days, obviously there is some limitation based on RAM.

If you think it will make such a big difference, why don't you hook up an SSD to your HR24 and see if you guide data suddenly starts blazing?


----------



## James Long

slice1900 said:


> As for why the regulations are what they are, you'd have to ask Congress


It is more a function of licensing ... but DIRECTV and others rely on "47 U.S. Code § 553 - Unauthorized reception of cable service" to turn a license violation into a violation of law (since they are not authorizing the account for public viewing). The law sets higher fines when the unauthorized reception is for personal or business gain.

Congress could write laws that override the licensing (similar to locals and distants) but they would probably come up with something worse.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Saying "data will be transferred 58.5 times faster" if you upgraded your 175 Mbps connection to 10 Gbps is ludicrous. You do realize that there are pretty much no sites on the internet that you can pull data from at even a gigabit, let alone 10?


I said "theoretically" and theoretically it would. An interface that is 58.5 times faster would obviously move data 58.5 times faster. That's the whole point of it being 58.5 times faster. I also said that it removes *that part* from being the bottleneck. Until everything from start to finish can handle 10Gbps, you obviously wouldn't get 10Gbps. No, I don't think 10Gbps will be a product any time soon. There are a few scattered 2Gbps home fiber deployments *LIVE NOW* and have been for several years. However, I expect nationwide rollout will be 1Gbps.



slice1900 said:


> Speedtest is not always useful - a lot of ISPs will prioritize traffic to the Speedtest sites just to make themselves look good. Visit The Linux Kernel Archives and download the latest kernel source archive (about 90MB compressed) and see if you still get 175 Mbps. It has a 10 gigabit connection peered with pretty much everyone, so you should be able to download that in less than 5 seconds.


I haven't tried the Linux archives, but I can get around 17MB/s on Torrent and you'd think they'd be throttling that.



slice1900 said:


> It could also be that your ISP is deliberately hobbling Netflix, trying to encourage people to use their preferred streaming partners or their own VOD if it is a cable company. It has happened before, and now that net neutrality is off the table with the change in FCC control, that sort of thing will definitely be back!


Possibly. Since my trial is expiring in a few days, I'm not loosing sleep over it. But it doesn't seem like Cox throttles in my area if they aren't throttling torrent.



slice1900 said:


> Its news to me if an internet connected box is pulling guide data from the cloud. Regardless of where it gets it from, and maybe all the extra crap is saved to disk, but the basic guide data you get when you hit 'guide' is coming from RAM. Otherwise how do my H24s that don't have internet access or hard drives have guide data? DVRs have like two weeks of guide data, and my H20s only have about three days, obviously there is some limitation based on RAM.


When you are internet connected, searches DEFINITELY happen in the cloud. That's well known since it was always broken on the HR24s (at least to the server mine seemed to always connect to) -- and was INSTANTLY fixed if you yanked the internet cord and was INSTANTLY broken again if you reconnected. I'm like 99% sure if you are connected, it pulls the guide data off the internet too, but maybe somebody else can confirm.

Ya, that's what I said, on the drive-less boxes (except genie clients) its in RAM, but its basic guide info. The "extra crap" is too big. Does the H24 have thumbnails or any of the "extra crap"? If it does, I'd be amazed since I am a software developer and I can't imagine how they'd cram so much data and an OS in memory. I can imagine them storing it on disk and caching a day or two or three in memory or having some other caching mechanism. But on the driveless models, its gotta be real basic.



slice1900 said:


> If you think it will make such a big difference, why don't you hook up an SSD to your HR24 and see if you guide data suddenly starts blazing?


Has anybody actually tried this? See... going back to our first point... a SATA 3 SSD is much faster then a HD, but it was bottlenecked by the SATA 3 interface which is why they came up with NVME and M.2. I couldn't stick a M.2 drive in my DVR, that's for sure. Is the HR24 SATA 3? Seems to old for that. If its SATA 1 or SATA 2, no point in trying to stick a SSD in there since the SATA is the bottleneck .


----------



## KyL416

SledgeHammer said:


> However, I expect nationwide rollout will be 1Gbps.


I have a bridge to sell you. It may be where you are, but in the real world, even after you ignore the many areas where cable providers refuse to wire because it isn't "profitable", there's cable systems still running on 450 MHz networks with ZERO plans to upgrade. And no..this isn't out in the "sticks" or "farmland" where houses are miles apart. This is even in decently populated suburbs where most lots are half an acre. Heck, the bulk of the cable providers gave false information to the national broadband map as well. Instead of reporting the actual speeds available and only the places wired for service, they just reported where they have franchises and the fastest speed available for a region comprised of multiple headends and systems.
If you're in one of the few states where cable is still regulated by the public utilites comission, and they have everything online on the public utilities comission website, you can find a lot of these things out by searching their filings database, where many providers include a breakdown of every analog and QAM channel on their network, details about what, if any, upgrades they plan on doing, as well as minutes of townhall meetings for franchise renewals.



SledgeHammer said:


> but I can get around 17MB/s on Torrent and you'd think they'd be throttling that.


Do you even know how Torrents work? They grab data from MULTIPLE connections. That is the LAST place to look to get an indicator on what kind of speeds a website or a service like Netflix delivers to the end user. The same goes for SpeedTest sites, Slice got one part of it right, the other part is SpeedTest sites use servers designed to deliver individual connections at max speed, hence why most of those sites have a limit on how many simultaneous tests can be done from a given server at one time and check multiple servers before they start the test. That's not how actual websites operate.



SledgeHammer said:


> I'm like 99% sure if you are connected, it pulls the guide data off the internet too, but maybe somebody else can confirm.


You're 100% wrong, both in this and much space 2 weeks of saved guide data takes. (You overshot it by about 1.7 GB)

The only things the internet is used for are the more advanced Smart Search, VOD (not counting pushed content for newer movies and showcases), restart, apps (including ScoreGuide 2.0), out of home MobileDVR streaming, and authorization for PPV and VOD purchases by remote.


----------



## Riverpilot

slice1900 said:


> Speedtest is not always useful - a lot of ISPs will prioritize traffic to the Speedtest sites just to make themselves look good. Visit The Linux Kernel Archives and download the latest kernel source archive (about 90MB compressed) and see if you still get 175 Mbps. It has a 10 gigabit connection peered with pretty much everyone, so you should be able to download that in less than 5 seconds.
> 
> It could also be that your ISP is deliberately hobbling Netflix, trying to encourage people to use their preferred streaming partners or their own VOD if it is a cable company. It has happened before, and now that net neutrality is off the table with the change in FCC control, that sort of thing will definitely be back!


I tried the d/l for giggles. Took me 9 seconds with gig speed.


----------



## SledgeHammer

KyL416 said:


> Do you even know how Torrents work? They grab data from MULTIPLE connections. That is the LAST place to look to get an indicator on what kind of speeds a website or a service like Netflix delivers to the end user. The same goes for SpeedTest sites, Slice got one part of it right, the other part is SpeedTest sites use servers designed to deliver individual connections at max speed, hence why most of those sites have a limit on how many simultaneous tests can be done from a given server at one time and check multiple servers before they start the test. That's not how actual websites operate.


Its an indication of what my connection is capable of.



KyL416 said:


> You're 100% wrong, both in this and much space 2 weeks of saved guide data takes. (You overshot it by about 1.7 GB)
> 
> The only things the internet is used for are the more advanced Smart Search, VOD (not counting pushed content for newer movies and showcases), restart, apps (including ScoreGuide 2.0), out of home MobileDVR streaming, and authorization for PPV and VOD purchases by remote.


FALSE. SO FALSE.

A simple title search for "Pawn Stars" on a connected box happens in the cloud. That has been proven. There are many threads about it.

If searches don't happen in the cloud, explain this:

1) HR24 NOT connected to the internet, search for Pawn Stars, get like 200+ showings
2) Same HR24 connects to the internet at the SAME TIME as #1, search for Pawn Stars and gets 17 showings
3) Disconnect HR24 from the internet, repeat search, back to 200+

Several years ago, I would see that happen every 3 or 4 months (as did others on here). It seemed to be confined to a certain regions. There was an issue where every once in a while, the search would only find stuff up to x days rather then ~14 and no amount of reboots or factory resets would fix it. Nothing except taking it offline.

If you still don't believe me that the connected boxes use different guide data, here is a test you can still try today as its always been broken (at least on a HR24):

OFFLINE BOX: Open guide, go to 242 USA around 5:00pm. You'll see "Monday Night Raw". Hit Record. You'll get an alert saying its a live program and do you want to add an overrun.

Cancel Recording.

ONLINE BOX: Same test. Weird... I don't get the live program alert anymore.

How do you explain those discrepancies?


----------



## SledgeHammer

KyL416 said:


> both in this and much space 2 weeks of saved guide data takes. (You overshot it by about 1.7 GB)


300MB for 2 weeks of *advanced* guide data? lol... show your math please. Did you account for thumbnails? Did you account for short and long descriptions (since those are different), did you account for cast info? etc.


----------



## KyL416

> Its an indication of what my connection is capable of.


You still don't get it. Even though your connection is capable of whatever, it doesn't mean websites will ever delivering data at that speed. Like it or not, having 1 GBps doesn't mean content will be delivered at those speed now or 10 years from now. The only thing speeds that fast are good for in a home is to avoid slow downs if you're in a household with multiple users doing data heavy activity at the same time like watching Netflix, Skype video, or downloading large current generation game updates.



SledgeHammer said:


> FALSE. SO FALSE.
> 
> A simple title search for "Pawn Stars" on a connected box happens in the cloud. That has been proven. There are many threads about it.


Read the post again, I already said Smart Seach was one of the things that uses the internet on connected receivers...


> The only things the internet is used for are the more advanced Smart Search...





> f you still don't believe me that the connected boxes use different guide data, here is a test you can still try today as its always been broken (at least on a HR24):
> 
> OFFLINE BOX: Open guide, go to 242 USA around 5:00pm. You'll see "Monday Night Raw". Hit Record. You'll get an alert saying its a live program and do you want to add an overrun.
> 
> Cancel Recording.
> 
> ONLINE BOX: Same test. Weird... I don't get the live program alert anymore.


I just clicked record on Raw and got the Live program warning on my internet connected HR24. You probably didn't see the warning again because it already saw you noticed it the first time you tried to record the show. Just how that popup about the + for channels with VOD only appears once.



SledgeHammer said:


> 300MB for 2 weeks of *advanced* guide data? lol... show your math please. Did you account for thumbnails? Did you account for short and long descriptions (since those are different), did you account for cast info? etc.


The fact that you think 2 weeks takes 2 GB shows you really don't understand what comprises guide data or how the guide functions. It's not math, I'm not guessing when it comes to this stuff, it's seeing the data first hand. I work with TMS/Gracenote's data on a daily basis, so you're not going to get a more definitive answer on how this stuff works and how large 2 weeks of guide data takes, including the posters which also comes from them, and yes, the data includes both the short and long descriptions.

Myself and others monitored what is actually being pulled from the internet to confirm this. (i.e. when you use the Weather TV app, it's pulling the data directly from weather.com) At no point is it ever sending GET or POST requests to retrieve guide data. It isn't a one and done grab every 24 hours either like TiVO and other devices like Windows Media Center. TMS/Gracenote issues updates to their guide data multiple times every day, and those updates are pushed to our receivers via satellite, NOT the internet.

If this was via the internet, people would notice it. You'd be seeing tons of complaints from DSL users, including myself, about constant slow downs on our internet everytime it fetches data. (You know, people with ACTUAL "slow" connections, not that FAST 175 Mbps you think is slow, when in reality you're actually close to the max speed most websites send their data to individual users.) Not to mention, if the guide came from the internet, areas with snow buildup issues where portions of the dish is covered to kill reception of 101 but not 99 or 103 wouldn't get nagging messages about missing guide data after a few hours and miss out on guide data updates that came out since then, like we do here during late fall heavy wet snowfalls in November. And that whole fiasco from 3 months where the guide data stream was missing from the satellites for a few hours in November wouldn't have caused problems for those with internet connected receivers (or have them miss the early morning update from TMS to add the Cubs parade coverage on CSN Chicago).


----------



## SledgeHammer

KyL416 said:


> Like it or not, having 1 GBps doesn't mean content will be delivered at those speed now or 10 years from now.


No kidding. I never argued that it did. I said MY side is capable of 175Mbps *total*.



KyL416 said:


> I just clicked record on Raw and got the Live program warning on my internet connected HR24. You probably didn't see the warning again because it already saw you noticed it the first time you tried to record the show.


Weird... cuz if I disconnect, I get the popup again.



KyL416 said:


> The fact that you think 2 weeks takes 2 GB shows you really don't understand what comprises guide data or how the guide functions. It's not math, I'm not guessing when it comes to this stuff, it's seeing the data first hand.


No, I don't work with guide data. So it doesn't contain stuff like a program id, short description, long description, original air date, start time, duration, thumbnail / poster, episode name, several flags (live, audio type, lb, etc), cast info (maybe a FK into the "actor table" so it doesn't repeat all that info) for starters? Man, you guide data guys must be wizards or something! How does a DVR display all that info without sending it? .

You might compress it (or not) during transmission, but at the end of the day, for display, it has to be decompressed and a string is a string and a modern image format like PNG is already compressed, so it can't be recompressed. You might be able to use an optimized image format since you don't need all the flexibility of different color depths, etc.

It's not math? Sounds like its math to me. # of total programs in 2 weeks * bytes of data per program (and as I said, some of the data can be reused with FKs or something like that), but you still have a "basic" bytes per program.


----------



## CraigerM

I found this old thread searching for RVU DECA info. I wonder if this would apply to the HS-17 since it has the wireless video bridge built in?

RVU activated without a DECA.


----------



## tylorert

James Long said:


> It is more a function of licensing ... but DIRECTV and others rely on "47 U.S. Code § 553 - Unauthorized reception of cable service" to turn a license violation into a violation of law (since they are not authorizing the account for public viewing). The law sets higher fines when the unauthorized reception is for personal or business gain.
> 
> Congress could write laws that override the licensing (similar to locals and distants) but they would probably come up with something worse.


Arnt we getting of topic now with SSDs in DVRs? And internet speeds?


----------



## SledgeHammer

tylorert said:


> Arnt we getting of topic now with SSDs in DVRs? And internet speeds?


Lol... yeah, what else you gonna talk about when you get 1 tidbit of info or less about the HS17 per week?


----------



## tylorert

SledgeHammer said:


> Lol... yeah, what else you gonna talk about when you get 1 tidbit of info or less about the HS17 per week?


Hopes and dreams!  Well, how is its stability? When is the public relece?


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> There isn't? I have a HR24 and even when I'm not recording anything, the thing slows to a crawl when a background task is going on. You're also thinking HD... 4K is supposed to be 30Mbps, so you won't be able to do more than 4 reads with a hard drive on your best day. Probably closer to 3 since they tend to put slower / cooler / cheaper drives in. Plus, you solve the heat problem. Only real issue is the cost. Like everything else, they'll come down in price.


No, there isn't a bottleneck at the drive in a DVR. SATA hard drives, meaning spinning disks, have a 6Gbps interface to the motherboard, and usually have several hundred megabits per second of sequential read and write speed. At those speeds you can record several entire transponders worth of data at once, which, incidentally, already happens as that is how Dish Network's Hopper does it's Prime Time Anytime trick.

Also, Dish has a DVR with 16 tuners, and it can record all 16 + an OTA tuner and not slow down, and I promise they don't use SSDs

The bottleneck you see is not on the disk and is somewhere else, either in the memory or (more likely) the CPU.

SSDs in a DVR would just not be smart. Someone quoted a couple hundred TB r/w cycle limit for a common Samsung SSD, but a DVR would blow through that pretty quickly. Remember, DVRs are constantly recording to disk even if they're not "recording" so that the pause live TV function works.

There's so many other components in any given DVR that are holding it back that investing in SSDs is the last thing any set top manufacturer or designer should be doing. They could greatly increase performance by putting a faster CPU or more RAM.


----------



## carl6

tylorert said:


> Arnt we getting of topic now with SSDs in DVRs? And internet speeds?


Good point - we should try to keep a thread somewhere close to the topic of the thread.



SledgeHammer said:


> Lol... yeah, what else you gonna talk about when you get 1 tidbit of info or less about the HS17 per week?


Plenty of other places to discuss other topics (other than HS17), or you can start a new thread if you wish.

Please stay at least somewhat close to topic, this is a thread about the HS17, for which there has been no official information released, but a fair amount of information provided that appears to be "reasonable". As to questions about customer pricing, I don't believe there have been any announcements, and I question if people in this thread have actual, valid, information on those points.


----------



## Troch2002

peds48 said:


> Everything is laid out nicely on this thread. Thanks a few minutes to go over instead of having folks repeat have has already been said.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is nothing laid out nicely in this thread.

There are few and far between informational pieces in this topic full of speculation, off topic discussions.

I've yet, to see a release date, or anything other than that paper stating this has anything to do with residential applications.

1 guy has one , and 3 other members talk like they invented it.

I'll be sure to look for its release in 2018 sometime.


----------



## tylorert

Troch2002 said:


> There is nothing laid out nicely in this thread.
> 
> There are few and far between informational pieces in this topic full of speculation, off topic discussions.
> 
> I've yet, to see a release date, or anything other than that paper stating this has anything to do with residential applications.
> 
> 1 guy has one , and 3 other members talk like they invented it.
> 
> I'll be sure to look for its release in 2018 sometime.


They should make a Q&A thread on this thing.."HS-17 Q&A Based on what we know"


----------



## tylorert

carl6 said:


> Good point - we should try to keep a thread somewhere close to the topic of the thread.
> 
> Plenty of other places to discuss other topics (other than HS17), or you can start a new thread if you wish.
> 
> Please stay at least somewhat close to topic, this is a thread about the HS17, for which there has been no official information released, but a fair amount of information provided that appears to be "reasonable". As to questions about customer pricing, I don't believe there have been any announcements, and I question if people in this thread have actual, valid, information on those points.


Make a thread and copy and paste. "Hx-xx SSD Speculation" or something along those lines


----------



## carl6

Troch2002 said:


> There is nothing laid out nicely in this thread.
> There are few and far between informational pieces in this topic full of speculation, off topic discussions.
> I've yet, to see a release date, or anything other than that paper stating this has anything to do with residential applications.
> 1 guy has one , and 3 other members talk like they invented it.
> I'll be sure to look for its release in 2018 sometime.


Enough information has been presented here to clearly indicate the HS17 is not a myth. There are suggestions without proof (to be expected at this point) that the unit is in testing by some number of testers (may or may not be employees). That is about all I would expect with regard to a pre-release product in development.

I have participated in some prior DirecTV product tests. I can tell you with absolute certainty that people who are involved in the tests are not permitted to discuss anything to do with those tests, including whether or not they are participating, or even that such a test is happening. You will not see first hand information here (or elsewhere) from anyone who has and is using an HS17 (assuming there are any people doing so).

When DirecTV chooses to release this product, you will see all the information regarding it. Until then, you will see rumors, speculation, guesses, and perhaps some second hand information from varied "sources". For now, it is up to the reader to decide how accurate this information is, or the validity of those providing it. But if you want hard and fast facts, you won't get them until there is an official product announcement.


----------



## James Long

tylorert said:


> They should make a Q&A thread on this thing.."HS-17 Q&A Based on what we know"


That is this thread. Unfiltered, so read carefully. But until there is an official release of the receiver you are in the right place.


----------



## Troch2002

carl6 said:


> Enough information has been presented here to clearly indicate the HS17 is not a myth. There are suggestions without proof (to be expected at this point) that the unit is in testing by some number of testers (may or may not be employees). That is about all I would expect with regard to a pre-release product in development.
> 
> I have participated in some prior DirecTV product tests. I can tell you with absolute certainty that people who are involved in the tests are not permitted to discuss anything to do with those tests, including whether or not they are participating, or even that such a test is happening. You will not see first hand information here (or elsewhere) from anyone who has and is using an HS17 (assuming there are any people doing so).
> 
> When DirecTV chooses to release this product, you will see all the information regarding it. Until then, you will see rumors, speculation, guesses, and perhaps some second hand information from varied "sources". For now, it is up to the reader to decide how accurate this information is, or the validity of those providing it. But if you want hard and fast facts, you won't get them until there is an official product announcement.


Exactly this thread is nothing But speculation. 
Which is fine.

But the key points of speculation are masked and Buried in massive amounts of off topic rubbish.

Start a thread Carl thats locked, and you only post the Facts presented to date.


----------



## James Long

We cannot do that. We do not want to be in the position of confirming or denying any facts. We just want the conversation to remain civil.

Enough said. Please PM any further questions about moderation. This thread is about the HS-17.


----------



## compnurd

Troch2002 said:


> Exactly this thread is nothing But speculation.
> Which is fine.
> 
> But the key points of speculation are masked and Buried in massive amounts of off topic rubbish.
> 
> Start a thread Carl thats locked, and you only post the Facts presented to date.


We are well past the point of speculation right now. We have confirmed pictures of the device and information off the install from it. We also have install documentation indicating this is going into a residence and not commercial


----------



## CraigerM

One thing to think about is this is still in beta testing what if it doesn't pass the beta test? What if they have other models that they are beta testing and will like better than the HS17?


----------



## tylorert

CraigerM said:


> One thing to think about is this is still in beta testing what if it doesn't pass the beta test? What if they have other models that they are beta testing and will like better than the HS17?


Hmmmmmmm, good point! If anyone knows anything on this, speakup? I'm sure that have other revisions of the HS-17 like the Hx-xx x00, example, HR-24 200, and the HR-24 100. Same modes and similar parts but not same brand. I think it's the same for the 17 and upcoming HS-xx and HR-xx. Make sence?


----------



## JosephB

CraigerM said:


> One thing to think about is this is still in beta testing what if it doesn't pass the beta test? What if they have other models that they are beta testing and will like better than the HS17?


If they find problems with it during beta testing, it's highly unlikely they'd cancel the product completely, they'd attempt to fix the problems. The only reason they'd cancel it completely is if it had some insurmountable fatal flaw, which is unlikely since this is probably just a variation on existing DirecTV hardware. They're not really trying to pull off anything exceptionally complicated here.

And it's also highly unlikely that they have a "competing" design also in beta test that they plan to choose from. The point at which they'd have made that competition and decision would have been before making enough of these and making them operational to put into residential settings.


----------



## compnurd

tylorert said:


> Hmmmmmmm, good point! If anyone knows anything on this, speakup? I'm sure that have other revisions of the HS-17 like the Hx-xx x00, example, HR-24 200, and the HR-24 100. Same modes and similar parts but not same brand. I think it's the same for the 17 and upcoming HS-xx and HR-xx. Make sence?


There is a HS17-100 and a HS17-500 They are up on the firmware page


----------



## slice1900

The problem with people who "want everything nicely laid out" is that there is stuff we know for sure (i.e. models HS17-100 & HS17-500 exist) stuff we have conflicting info about (11 tuners listed in installation sheet but SWM-15 printed on satellite input) stuff that is likely subject to change before release (limits on number of recordings, clients, simultaneous 4K streams) and stuff we can only guess about but probably won't even be officially decided on by Directv management until testing nears completion (release date, how pricing will work with it, etc.)

If someone put together a list of "what we know" it would quickly devolve into arguments about which of the above categories various things belong (and I'll bet someone might take issue with some of the examples I put for each category and whether they belong in a different category!)

If there was enough stuff we really know, I'd modify the first post to keep a running list, but I don't think there's much point since it too fluid. If you just "want the scoop", wait until one of the sites does a "first look" article. Until then, you won't get the scoop, you'll just get a bunch of guesswork with the occasional nugget of truth thrown in as they're discovered.


----------



## peds48

tylorert said:


> Hmmmmmmm, good point! If anyone knows anything on this, speakup? I'm sure that have other revisions of the HS-17 like the Hx-xx x00, example, HR-24 200, and the HR-24 100. Same modes and similar parts but not same brand. I think it's the same for the 17 and upcoming HS-xx and HR-xx. Make sence?


Manufacturers must abide by same specs. All this sourcing does is make sure enough inventory is available.

You can bet a box has a Kill date when only one manufacturer is sourced, like the 34. When multiple manufacturers are sourced you can pretty much bet on it is a go.

And as I said before, all this beta testing does is to produce an install flow as pay for techs is based heavily on this. Also to squish any gotchas as we know this will come with huge bugs when release.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

JosephB said:


> If they find problems with it during beta testing, it's highly unlikely they'd cancel the product completely, they'd attempt to fix the problems. The only reason they'd cancel it completely is if it had some insurmountable fatal flaw, which is unlikely since this is probably just a variation on existing DirecTV hardware. They're not really trying to pull off anything exceptionally complicated here.
> 
> And it's also highly unlikely that they have a "competing" design also in beta test that they plan to choose from. The point at which they'd have made that competition and decision would have been before making enough of these and making them operational to put into residential settings.


I know of only one time we have ever heard of something in testing that never made it to market. The PC card years ago.

Oh wait. I guess the swim5 as well. Almost could consider the first gen of the dswim lnb too.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I know of only one time we have ever heard of something in testing that never made it to market. The PC card years ago.
> 
> Oh wait. I guess the swim5 as well. Almost could consider the first gen of the dswim lnb too.


I still think the only reason the SWM 13 LNB existed was to use up the excess inventory of 20 tuner (19+1) chips used in the hotel market specific DSWM13. They only needed so many DSWM13s, so to keep the unit cost down they found somewhere else to use them so they could get better pricing on a higher order commitment.

As for the SWM5 switch, those analog SWM chips had three tuners each meaning two per SWM5 switch and three per SWM8. Perhaps they just didn't have that many at first, so building a SWM5 let them stretch their inventory of switches for more testing than if they built SWM8s. Or maybe at first they thought five tuners would be "enough". But a good example of how what they test isn't necessarily spec'ed the same as what they release!


----------



## RAD

CraigerM said:


> One thing to think about is this is still in beta testing what if it doesn't pass the beta test? What if they have other models that they are beta testing and will like better than the HS17?


I'd be willing to bet that by the time a box makes it out of alpha testing to beta that they have a fairly good idea that the box will be making it to GA.


----------



## codespy

peds48 said:


> Manufacturers must abide by same specs. All this sourcing does is make sure enough inventory is available.
> 
> You can bet a box has a Kill date when only one manufacturer is sourced, like the 34. When multiple manufacturers are sourced you can pretty much bet on it is a go..........................Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With that information, should we be worried about the future of the C61K-700?


----------



## peds48

codespy said:


> With that information, should we be worried about the future of the C61K-700?


Perhaps. But not for bad reasons. There will be something replace it, which is a good thing.

or if it falls flat in its face, then it was a good bet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Laxguy

codespy said:


> With that information, should we be worried about the future of the C61K-700?


No. I doubt there's a need for two manufacturers at this point.


----------



## inkahauts

They use one manufacturer when they don't expect nearly as much demand. I doubt very many people are asking for 4k yet.


----------



## slice1900

The C61K is using a first generation HEVC decoder, which runs hot and accounts for its larger size. It may go away but it'll be replaced with something else smaller and cooler.

Eventually the cost of building a 4K client will be so close to the cost of building an HD client that they will just have 'clients'. We're probably already there as far as hardware costs, but licensing costs for HEVC patents might put a wrench in that idea.


----------



## Laxguy

Agree that the additional cost of having two lines of clients is now, or will soon be, more expensive than having all clients be 4K.

And having the clients be the sole server of 4K material makes a lot of sense in that it's way cheaper to replace a client than a receiver with HDD. 

Brings up a question though: Is HEVC requiring chips that cannot be used for other codecs? Is DIRECTV® locked in to HEVC? I started reading about HEVC but it's long, tortuous and some of it just jargon.


----------



## slice1900

Laxguy said:


> Brings up a question though: Is HEVC requiring chips that cannot be used for other codecs? Is DIRECTV® locked in to HEVC? I started reading about HEVC but it's long, tortuous and some of it just jargon.


There isn't a particular chip for just HEVC, it is one functional block on a larger chip that has many other functional blocks, such the CPU, and MPEG2 and MPEG4 decoding.

BTW, I'm just assuming Directv is using HEVC for 4K. They said that was the plan, and that's what others are doing, but I've seen claims that they are using MPEG4 for 4K broadcasts right now. I don't have any way of confirming or denying that, but in the long run they will definitely use HEVC.


----------



## Laxguy

slice1900 said:


> There isn't a particular chip for just HEVC, it is one functional block on a larger chip that has many other functional blocks, such the CPU, and MPEG2 and MPEG4 decoding.
> 
> BTW, I'm just assuming Directv is using HEVC for 4K. They said that was the plan, and that's what others are doing, but I've seen claims that they are using MPEG4 for 4K broadcasts right now. I don't have any way of confirming or denying that, but in the long run they will definitely use HEVC.


Well, maybe my new smart Sammy will tell me, but I doubt it. I am sure I couldn't tell the difference IF the streams are equalized as to PQ in the home....

Back to the chips or blocks, might they allow for a competing codec to further pressure the owners of HVEC to lower price? Or can they be flashed to take on subsequent versions of HVEC or competing codecs?


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> ...
> BTW, I'm just assuming Directv is using HEVC for 4K. They said that was the plan, and that's what others are doing, but I've seen claims that they are using MPEG4 for 4K broadcasts right now. I don't have any way of confirming or denying that, but in the long run they will definitely use HEVC.


Yeah ....

Considering they're using an entire 36 MHz wide Ka XNPDR for each UHD channel for now. It's not like they really need the more advanced compression capabilty of HEVC right now until there is more content at least.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

Laxguy said:


> Back to the chips or blocks, might they allow for a competing codec to further pressure the owners of HVEC to lower price? Or can they be flashed to take on subsequent versions of HVEC or competing codecs?


They aren't programmable, so they can't flash upgrade to support newer codecs. Sometime the first generation chips are programmable because the standard isn't quite set yet - that's one of several reasons those first generation chips tend to run hotter than later generations. Broadcom (for example) could theoretically add support for a new codec like VP10, but Directv would have to support it from day one. Otherwise either the older hardware that doesn't support it becomes instantly obsolete, or the implied threat of using something else is worthless. If it was so easy to switch horses midstream, we wouldn't be waiting until 2019 to drop MPEG2 SD 

Besides, "royalty free" codecs like VP10 that might compete with HEVC are only royalty free until they gain real traction. If/when they do, every patent holder is going to look really closely at how it works, and those who have applicable patents will sue for infringement claiming royalties. In the long run it could easily end up costing more than HEVC licensing does (because of the way the patents are pooled in an official standard) Today patent holders have no incentive to see if VP10 infringes on their patents, because no one is using it - if they looked now and sued, it would only serve to eliminate any chance it gets used. It is a better financial decision to ignore it and only check if it becomes widely used, when there's real money to be made.

It isn't so much that HEVC is so much more expensive than MPEG4 licensing wise (it is more, but the pricing won't be a problem for set top box makers) it is more than MPEG4 licensing is starting to get cheaper as some patents used in it are already starting to expire.


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah ....
> 
> Considering they're using an entire 36 MHz wide Ka XNPDR for each UHD channel for now. It's not like they really need the more advanced compression capabilty of HEVC right now until there is more content at least.


Directv said they were going to put three 4K channels in two bonded transponders, at a 30 Mbps bit rate, and that they would be using HEVC. Just like there is a wide variety of bit rates being used for MPEG4 HD, I'm sure there will be a wide variety of bit rates used for 4K. Providers with lots of spare bandwidth like Directv has (thanks to all those reverse band transponders) will use higher bit rates and higher quality. Those who have less will have to compress more and have lower picture quality.

Before someone points out Netflix is using 15.6 Mbps or whatever it is for their HEVC encoded 4K, that's pre-encoded, not on the fly encoding. Encoding on the fly doesn't compress nearly as well. When you pre-encode you could (and often do) throw an day's worth of computing power at an hour long program. If have it compressed to 16.6 Mbps and a day's worth of computing power could drop that to 15.6 Mbps, that would be totally worth it to them - it will save them bandwidth and increase the chances that customers have a better experience instead of buffering. Throwing that kind of computing power at it is not really possible for something that's live (and even recorded content is "live" when shown on Directv or other providers, because they are putting multiple programs in the same transponder/channel) Compare with 4K Blu Ray, which can exceed 100 Mbps for its _pre-encoded_ HEVC encoded content at times, and that's playing content that is primarily 24 fps!!

If I had to guess I'd say Directv has been using HEVC for its 4K broadcasts from day one, but I saw a claim on the other site suggesting otherwise. Of course, I saw another claim on that site that they were using 60-70 Mbps for their 4K, which is quite ridiculous, so the person saying it was MPEG4 could be clueless. I would think someone using RVU to their 4K TV would easily be able to provide us the scoop, at least on some TV models. Obviously if you use a C61K that would not be possible.


----------



## JosephB

Another thing to consider is that encoders get better within a given codec over time, so an MPEG-4 encoder today can squeeze the same content at the same picture quality into smaller and smaller bitrates than a first generation MPEG-4 encoder 5 or 10 years ago.

Earlier today, actually, I was reading an article regarding ATSC 1.0/3.0 and broadcast spectrum repacking and they imply that an MPEG-2 encoder today can be as much as twice as efficient as an MPEG-2 encoder from the turn of the century and the bitstream still play on an ATSC tuner manufactured the late 90s.

I don't think DirecTV can necessarily plan on a certain amount of improvement of encoders, but they have to have an idea that it will get better with time, so they can afford to "waste" some bandwidth for now while there's not a lot of content out there. 

However, anything that requires specific hardware has to already be set in stone. Even if they weren't using it for broadcasts today, if they plan to use HEVC in the future they have to have the hardware in the boxes now, same thing with any changes in RF modulation. They don't want to end up with a situation like they did with HD where the very first round of boxes are worthless.


----------



## inkahauts

I would love to know why they thought it was still mpeg4. Makes no sense.


----------



## P Smith

If you would trust DTV system info tables, new 4K channels marked as compressed with H.265 algo (it's settled new standard of video compression when HEVC was a name of a draft of it, now it's obsolete and using people who lost track of new standards )


----------



## slice1900

I don't see any reason why their system info tables would be wrong, so if they say h.265 then that's what it is.

And good point about improving compression over time. If Directv plans to get three 4K channels per bonded pair at first, I'm sure they assume they'll get more down the road. Though the way things are going with rolling out 4K so far, they might not ever need to go beyond one channel per transponder


----------



## Laxguy

Thanks, slice. Your posts are illuminating....


----------



## CraigerM

Over at the other site a member said he saw in his distributors catalog an HR-54k.


----------



## HoTat2

CraigerM said:


> Over at the other site a member said he saw in his distributors catalog an HR-54k.


Think that was discussed last year some time ...

Turned out to be a false alarm. Had nothing to do with 4K.

The "k" had something to do with a new label on the shipping carton of a regular HR54.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

HoTat2 said:


> Think that was discussed last year some time ...
> 
> Turned out to be a false alarm. Had nothing to do with 4K.
> 
> The "k" had something to do with a new label on the shipping carton of a regular HR54.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


The post sounded like he got a new catalog.


----------



## HoTat2

Yeah here it is ...

Posted March 20, 2016 from the same "other" site.



> The following is from DIRECTV.
> 
> We have received some questions from the field recently around the HR54's technical capabilities due to some HR54 shipping cartons being labeled "HR54K". This label is only an internal tracking mechanism used by Supply Chain to ensure that the field maintains enough inventory of HR54s to fulfill 4K installations, not any indication of the HR54's capabilities or a new model.
> 
> When completing a 4K work order, technicians should always keep in mind that the HR54 itself does not support viewing 4K content on any TV input to which it is directly connected. Instead, the HR54 serves as a pass-through to send 4K content to a 4K client - either a C61K or a DIRECTV 4K Ready TV. Please be sure to utilize a 4K client if a work order involves 4K programming.


Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah here it is ...
> 
> Posted March 20, 2016 from the same "other" site.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Ok, I get it now. Thanks for posting that. I can see why they labeled it that way. Allthough I wonder if some would still think it outputs to 4k over HDMI and all they need is the HR-54k and not the C61k?


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> Ok, I get it now. Thanks for posting that. I can see why they labeled it that way. Allthough I wonder if some would still think it outputs to 4k over HDMI and all they need is the HR-54k and not the C61k?


It doesn't matter what some think ... the record has been set straight and the correct answer is what needs to be repeated. Not the erroneous.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> I don't see any reason why their system info tables would be wrong, so if they say h.265 then that's what it is.
> 
> And good point about improving compression over time. If Directv plans to get three 4K channels per bonded pair at first, I'm sure they assume they'll get more down the road. Though the way things are going with rolling out 4K so far, they might not ever need to go beyond one channel per transponder


Do you recall how many years went by from first local Hi Definition broadcast till they actually mirrored the main channel and had even half the stuff in Hi Definition? How long did we have a total of five was it satellite Hi Definition channels? 4k has barley even got out the door. Let's see where we are at in two to three years.


----------



## James Long

It is hard to say how fast 4K will spread. The HD transition took more than a decade from when the FCC accepted the ATSC standard until when the FCC ended NTSC broadcast. That conversion was not specifically for HD (it was a conversion from analog to digital TV) but the development of HD gave one reason for the transition. The improved picture quality (up to six times more pixels) was enough of an improvement that manufactures and consumers accepted the change.

4K is an improvement over HD but it isn't as big of an improvement as HD over SD. There certainly is a desire for 4K in the marketplace but it appears (to me) that the proliferation of 4K is being driven by the manufactures - not the consumer. Much like in the HD conversion, there came a point where one could not find a TV above a certain size that wasn't HD. And that size kept getting smaller until one could not buy a SD only TV. For a few years 3D was the extra feature (whether the consumer wanted it or not) that appeared on TV sets. Now it seems like all sets of a certain size are 4K ... whether or not the consumer wants it.

How fast will content providers move to 4K? I am surprised there hasn't been more movement. My recollection of 3D was more accepted and promoted than 4K has been. DIRECTV put up several channels - most have gone away. I am surprised that there is no 4K premium movie channel (such as HBO or Showtime) and no ESPN 4K. Perhaps 2017 will be the year someone steps forward ... but until then 4K seems to be a system without a lot of content.


----------



## P Smith

that's well known secret - HD TV sales stalled and TV mfgs did push 4k/UHD TV sets out to shelves to keep own profit


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> Do you recall how many years went by from first local Hi Definition broadcast till they actually mirrored the main channel and had even half the stuff in Hi Definition? How long did we have a total of five was it satellite Hi Definition channels? 4k has barley even got out the door. Let's see where we are at in two to three years.


Counting from the first HD broadcast is silly, HDTVs were very expensive for years after that and it was a niche market until prices came down enough for the masses to start buying. 4K is in a totally different situation with 4K TVs exceeding HDTVs in sales already by Q4 of last year.

In fact, it is estimated about 10 million 4K TVs were sold last year - HDTVs didn't hit 10 million sales until 2005. So I think it would be more fair to compare where 4K is today with where HD was in early 2006.


----------



## inazsully

I am sure that the biggest stumbling block to seeing 4K on broadcast TV is equipment cost. Right now the return on investment just isn't there. YET. I think that it will come and it will most likely be driven by sports. This week the tournament at Pebble Brook is being show in 4K on DTV channel 106. No commercials and the announcers are mentioning the 4K aspect of the broadcast often.

As more and more 4K sets are being purchased the new owners will want 4K in some form. This puts DTV in a pretty powerful position from a marketing standpoint. Even though content is relegated to mostly nature shows, concerts, and a few sporting events, not to mention repeating most of these shows, DTV is still the only game in town beyond Netflix etc. When you are the one eyed man in a room full of blind people, you are king. If DTV comes out with a new DVR with a 2TB or larger hard drive they should simply say that the bigger HD reason "4K uses 4 times the recording space as 2K". Makes sense to me.


----------



## slice1900

Directv is the only game in town for 4K because the demand isn't there. Comcast has already demonstrated the ability to deliver 4K, and as many other cable providers (including my own smaller provider, Mediacom) convert to DOCSIS 3.1, they will have the bandwidth to easily deliver 4K - likely via IP rather than encoded in a QAM channel, though that will be transparent to subscribers.

Dish has better 4K hardware than Directv does today (and those who don't like the idea of a headless server will argue they always will) but they lack the bandwidth to deliver more than a handful of channels. But if that's all there is for the foreseeable future, as seems more and more likely given that still we see no announcements by any networks of the launch of a 4K channel, then Dish won't be burdened by this.


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> Dish has better 4K hardware than Directv does today (and those who don't like the idea of a headless server will argue they always will) but they lack the bandwidth to deliver more than a handful of channels.


I'm currently a Dish subscriber, because I think the Hopper 3 is far better than the current Genies. But, DirecTV has them beat by far on content and future bandwidth roadmap. Probably would've been better in the long run for them to have merged back in the 00s like they wanted.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Dish has better 4K hardware than Directv does today (and those who don't like the idea of a headless server will argue they always will)


Yup 



slice1900 said:


> but they lack the bandwidth to deliver more than a handful of channels. But if that's all there is for the foreseeable future, as seems more and more likely given that still we see no announcements by any networks of the launch of a 4K channel, then Dish won't be burdened by this.


Aren't they shutting down MPEG2 soon too?


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> I'm currently a Dish subscriber, because I think the Hopper 3 is far better than the current Genies. But, DirecTV has them beat by far on content and future bandwidth roadmap. Probably would've been better in the long run for them to have merged back in the 00s like they wanted.


DirecTV has tons of bandwidth, but its lying around gathering space dust, isn't it? Satellites don't last forever. If they don't do anything with it for 10 yrs, its pretty much the same thing as not having it and they flushed all that $$$ down the toilet. Maybe Dish is being smarter and only sending up birds they have current and/or real plans for? Not sure what the turn around time is for Boss saying "Launch it!" to lighting it up, but I'm sure they could accelerate it if a bunch of channels announced tommorow.


----------



## compnurd

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't say so,


Be careful may get this thread locked for talk like that 

2-15-17: Moderator edit to trim quoted comment


----------



## Laxguy

So, WHO is this dude? What are his credentials?


----------



## peds48

Laxguy said:


> So, WHO is this dude? What are his credentials?


He is the owner of satellite guys.com

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> Here is the updated sheet on it that Scott posted.


Can someone translate some of the acronyms here? What is this "old stack" / RIO versus "new stack" / EDGE business? I don't see anything in there about 'if you get an HS17 you have to trade in all your other equipment', so maybe the people worried about this can stop worrying?


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> Can someone translate some of the acronyms here? What is this "old stack" / RIO versus "new stack" / EDGE business? I don't see anything in there about 'if you get an HS17 you have to trade in all your other equipment', so maybe the people worried about this can stop worrying?


The acronyms are from an internal AT&T document, which in my personal opinion should not be quoted (same for the original document on the HS17). When AT&T is ready to release information publicly, they will. Until then, what you are seeing are "snips" from internal documents that may or may not bear any resemblance to an ultimately released product. So take any such information in context.

However, my job is not to censor posts, just to help keep people polite.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> Can someone translate some of the acronyms here? What is this "old stack" / RIO versus "new stack" / EDGE business? I don't see anything in there about 'if you get an HS17 you have to trade in all your other equipment', so maybe the people worried about this can stop worrying?


When I googled RIO vs. Edge I got a Wrestling match between Alberto Del Rio and Edge. Hahahahahah... must not be standard acronyms.


----------



## CraigerM

I found those definitions, not sure if the Edge one is right.

Return on investment - Wikipedia

Enhanced Data Rates for GSM Evolution - Wikipedia


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> I found those definitions, not sure if the Edge one is right.
> 
> Return on investment - Wikipedia
> 
> Enhanced Data Rates for GSM Evolution - Wikipedia


There is probably not right . There is over 100 acronyms for RIO. Probably need to ask someone at ATT what they mean. Sure they are used commonly for them


----------



## compnurd

SledgeHammer said:


> When I googled RIO vs. Edge I got a Wrestling match between Alberto Del Rio and Edge. Hahahahahah... must not be standard acronyms.


Companies have tons of acronyms for stuff. I can spout out 50 my company uses for stupid stuff


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> I found those definitions, not sure if the Edge one is right.
> 
> Return on investment - Wikipedia
> 
> Enhanced Data Rates for GSM Evolution - Wikipedia


Considering those docs are for installers there's no way that's what these mean.


----------



## cpalmer2k

So I might have missed it but how do you use traditional wired Genie clients (C31,41,51,etc) with this thing? Just put them all on a 4 or 8 way, then connect a run from it to the HS17 possibly?


----------



## tylorert

cpalmer2k said:


> So I might have missed it but how do you use traditional wired Genie clients with this thing? Just put them all on a 4 or 8 way, then connect a run from it to the HS17 possibly?


I don't think this can have a genie on one account. Some one here will correct me?


----------



## veryoldschool

[Mod voice]

Let's keep on topic or "we" can take another break for a few days


----------



## carl6

Laxguy said:


> So, no one can tell me anything about this Scott fellow other than he owns a website? Publicly that is. I have had a few PMs on some old history, for which I am grateful.


Scott G. is the owner/operator of satelliteguys.us He has his contacts and sources in the industry from which he gets information.

It is up to the reader (of this or any other web site) to sort the wheat from the chaff and decide what is accurate or reliable information. I do not know who Scott's sources are, and can neither speak for nor against their validity or reliability.


----------



## peds48

RIO is (was) the application (system) used by DIRECTV and its installer. Although currently used inside DIRECTV is no longer used by the techs, RIO was changed to FSTP 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

cpalmer2k said:


> So I might have missed it but how do you use traditional wired Genie clients (C31,41,51,etc) with this thing? Just put them all on a 4 or 8 way, then connect a run from it to the HS17 possibly?


Dish to splitter, out to server and clients. No different then what is being done today.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

peds48 said:


> RIO is (was) the application (system) used by DIRECTV and its installer. Although currently used inside DIRECTV is no longer used by the techs, RIO was changed to FSTP
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That would explain why it says the old RIO!


----------



## Troch2002

tylorert said:


> I don't think this can have a genie on one account. Some one here will correct me?


He's talking about Clients, not the Actual Genie.


----------



## Bill Broderick

CraigerM said:


> I found those definitions, not sure if the Edge one is right.
> 
> Return on investment - Wikipedia
> 
> Enhanced Data Rates for GSM Evolution - Wikipedia


"ROI" is the acronym for Return on Investment. Not "RIO".


----------



## Stevies3

peds48 said:


> Dish to splitter, out to server and clients. No different then what is being done today.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Will RVU clients work with HS17?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## veryoldschool

Stevies3 said:


> Will RVU clients work with HS17?


Yes, a genie by any other name....


----------



## peds48

And all clients, whether in house or third party are considered RVU. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Stevies3

Bummer, I don't see an Ethernet port on the HS17. I don't use deca in my setup. I use Ethernet from my switch to all my RVU clients and HR54. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

Stevies3 said:


> Bummer, I don't see an Ethernet port on the HS17. I don't use deca in my setup. I use Ethernet from my switch to all my RVU clients and HR54.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It has one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

Stevies3 said:


> Bummer, I don't see an Ethernet port on the HS17. I don't use deca in my setup. I use Ethernet from my switch to all my RVU clients and HR54.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Huh?? There is one right on the back


----------



## Stevies3

compnurd said:


> Huh?? There is one right on the back


My error...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carl6

Stevies3 said:


> Bummer, I don't see an Ethernet port on the HS17. I don't use deca in my setup. I use Ethernet from my switch to all my RVU clients and HR54.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have two clients, a C61K and a C41. Neither have ethernet ports, both must be fed by coax and function via deca from the Genie (they do not require an external deca device).


----------



## HoTat2

carl6 said:


> I have two clients, a C61K and a C41. Neither have ethernet ports, both must be fed by coax and function via deca from the Genie (they do not require an external deca device).


His clients must all be RVU capable TVs connected by ethernet to the Genie.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Stevies3

HoTat2 said:


> His clients must all be RVU capable TVs connected by ethernet to the Genie.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Yes, all RVU. Nice and clean plus saves electricity.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jborchel

So am I understanding this. I do not have 4K Directv currently but have three 4K tvs without RVU. My current setup is an HR44 and two HR41s connected via coax. When this HS17 is available I need three wireless or wired c61s and the HS-17. Anything else needed?


----------



## carl6

To serve your 4K tv's, you need c61K clients. There currently is not a wireless version of the C61K, so all would have to be wired.

Today, your only option is an HR54 Genie, which can serve one 4K stream to a C61K. If/when the HS17 becomes available it might be able to support more than one 4K stream simultaneously.

I think you meant you have an HR44 and two C41 clients (not HR41). You would have those two replaced with C61K and add one more with an HS17. You will probably also need a new LNB, which would be provided at the time an HR54 or HS17 is installed.


----------



## CraigerM

carl6 said:


> To serve your 4K tv's, you need c61K clients. There currently is not a wireless version of the C61K, so all would have to be wired.
> 
> Today, your only option is an HR54 Genie, which can serve one 4K stream to a C61K. If/when the HS17 becomes available it might be able to support more than one 4K stream simultaneously.
> 
> I think you meant you have an HR44 and two C41 clients (not HR41). You would have those two replaced with C61K and add one more with an HS17. You will probably also need a new LNB, which would be provided at the time an HR54 or HS17 is installed.


Carl how would those new OSHA rules affect installing just a new LNB for the HS-17, 4k and using a customers current dish? Are they different depending on the type of home?


----------



## ndole

Those rules aren't _new_ as much as they're being much more strictly followed now. If an ODU is located where it isn't accessible from a ladder, a fall protection harness is required. Nothing different from how things work today..


----------



## CraigerM

ndole said:


> Those rules aren't _new_ as much as they're being much more strictly followed now. If an ODU is located where it isn't accessible from a ladder, a fall protection harness is required. Nothing different from how things work today..


Sorry I shouldn't have put new in my post. I wonder how many people will want to upgrade to the HS17 if they are going need another dish put on the roof because it has to be at the edge of the roof?


----------



## JosephB

CraigerM said:


> Sorry I shouldn't have put new in my post. I wonder how many people will want to upgrade to the HS17 if they are going need another dish put on the roof because it has to be at the edge of the roof?


No more or less as would upgrade to the HR54 for the same reason. The HS17 is literally no different except that you need a client (RVU TV or Genie Mini) for the first TV.


----------



## carl6

As JosephB said, any 4K upgrade including HR54 will require new LNB. If they can't, or won't, get to the dish, they will put up another one where they can. That could be an issue for some customers, especially if HOA rules get in the way (or WAF for that matter - wife acceptance factor).


----------



## slice1900

I learned today that Directv is supporting multiple HR54s on commercial accounts as a solution for 4K. Recording is disabled of course for account types like public viewing that don't permit it.

So I'm optimistic the HS17 will be treated similarly when it is officially released in August or soon after. The HR54 is uninteresting to me, as I'd need a million of them, but the HS17 would be pretty slick. Not that I really care about 4K yet, and there are other limitations I'd have to address or work around, but clients would offer certain advantages for ordinary HD. This makes me wish even more that either RVU clients were available for third party set tops like Roku or Apple TV, or Directv's clients could run apps (i.e. stream from an HDHomeRun or similar) One can always hope that comes to pass someday, I guess...

I think this should make it pretty clear that client/server is Directv's future direction for ALL account types. They won't pry your HR24 or H25 out of your cold dead hands, but they might become harder to get eventually, at least from Directv.


----------



## CraigerM

I wouldn't care about having two HS-17's hooked up at the same time. I was thinking if I ever did upgrade to the HS-17, take the free upgrade to the HS-17, having the protection plan, would DTV, let you be able to buy a backup HS-17 if it went down? Or would it be worth it doing it that way because I guess they would still probably cost around $300 like the HR-54? Assuming AT&T would let you be able to buy the HS-17? I guess they would probably send out another HS-17 the next day? This is all assuming that they would let you have both the H/HR equipment and the HS-17 working together on the same LNB then I wouldn't need to have a backup HS-17.


----------



## slice1900

Well nothing stops you from buying a second Genie today and leaving it unactivated in the box, with the idea that you would call and deactivate the old one and activate the new one if it died. TV would have to be _really_ important to you to spend $300 for a backup, and it wouldn't solve the problem of losing your recordings (unless something changes with tying the recordings to the DVR they were recorded on)

For a bar/restaurant having a spare HS17 would make a lot more sense. It wouldn't take very many customers leaving because they can't watch the game from their seat to add up to $300 in lost profit.


----------



## CraigerM

I guess $300 would be a waste of money just having one sit in the closet. I wonder if they would make it so they could overnight an HS-17 if it went down? I also keep forgetting about shows being on VOD the next day.


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> This makes me wish even more that either RVU clients were available for third party set tops like Roku or Apple TV, or Directv's clients could run apps (i.e. stream from an HDHomeRun or similar) One can always hope that comes to pass someday, I guess...
> 
> I think this should make it pretty clear that client/server is Directv's future direction for ALL account types. They won't pry your HR24 or H25 out of your cold dead hands, but they might become harder to get eventually, at least from Directv.


I wouldn't count on non-DirecTV apps on DirecTV clients anytime soon. Much more likely to get RVU or IP-based clients on things like the Apple TV before you will ever get arbitrary apps on DirecTV clients

And you're probably right on the client/server going forward. HR24/H25s and Genies are all sharing a hardware family, but when the true next generation of receivers comes out, it would make sense to shed all of those ancillary box types and just disable features that are unneeded or unavailable.



CraigerM said:


> I guess $300 would be a waste of money just having one sit in the closet. I wonder if they would make it so they could overnight an HS-17 if it went down? I also keep forgetting about shows being on VOD the next day.


Of course they could. DirecTV can do anything they want. You always ask "can DirecTV or AT&T do X or Y", the answer is always yes, they are capable of a great many things. The relevant question is "will they" and of course the answer is "probably not" or they would've done it already.


----------



## Drucifer

After being bitten by the HR34, I'll think I will wait for the next generation of HSxx.


----------



## Beerstalker

slice1900 said:


> This makes me wish even more that either RVU clients were available for third party set tops like Roku or Apple TV, or Directv's clients could run apps (i.e. stream from an HDHomeRun or similar) One can always hope that comes to pass someday, I guess...


I've wondered if a developer could join the RVU alliance on their own and get access to the software so they could write an app for the AppleTV/Roku. The RVU Alliance website has information about becoming a member (looks like their is an $8000 membership and a $15000 membership, not 100% sure what the difference is). Seems like if you were a decent programmer it wouldn't be all that hard to make that money back pretty quick. I know I would be willing to pay $20-50 as a one time purchase for an RVU app for my Apple TVs if it would allow them to start working as RVU clients for DirecTV (and yes I realize I would still have to pay $7/month to DirecTV for them to work). At $20 each it would only take 400 people buying the app to cover the $8000 membership or 750 people for the $15000 membership. I wouldn't think that would be too hard to get.


----------



## slice1900

Beerstalker said:


> I've wondered if a developer could join the RVU alliance on their own and get access to the software so they could write an app for the AppleTV/Roku. The RVU Alliance website has information about becoming a member (looks like their is an $8000 membership and a $15000 membership, not 100% sure what the difference is). Seems like if you were a decent programmer it wouldn't be all that hard to make that money back pretty quick. I know I would be willing to pay $20-50 as a one time purchase for an RVU app for my Apple TVs if it would allow them to start working as RVU clients for DirecTV (and yes I realize I would still have to pay $7/month to DirecTV for them to work). At $20 each it would only take 400 people buying the app to cover the $8000 membership or 750 people for the $15000 membership. I wouldn't think that would be too hard to get.


There's an app called Channels for Apple TV that is really close. It is designed to stream from a Silicon Dust cablecard box, but it doesn't work for protected content (i.e. the channels where HDCP would be enabled) but he's working on getting DTCP-IP certification last I heard. I'm hoping once he tackles that maybe he'll think about supporting RVU, since he'd have 95% of the programming done once he has DTCP-IP licked.

That would be a really slick solution for me - slap an Apple TV behind every TV, streaming from HS17s for Directv, and Silicon Dust cable & OTA boxes for cable & antenna. A guy can dream...


----------



## peds48

Beerstalker said:


> I've wondered if a developer could join the RVU alliance on their own and get access to the software so they could write an app for the AppleTV/Roku. The RVU Alliance website has information about becoming a member (looks like their is an $8000 membership and a $15000 membership, not 100% sure what the difference is). Seems like if you were a decent programmer it wouldn't be all that hard to make that money back pretty quick. I know I would be willing to pay $20-50 as a one time purchase for an RVU app for my Apple TVs if it would allow them to start working as RVU clients for DirecTV (and yes I realize I would still have to pay $7/month to DirecTV for them to work). At $20 each it would only take 400 people buying the app to cover the $8000 membership or 750 people for the $15000 membership. I wouldn't think that would be too hard to get.


The AppleTV itself would have to be RVU certified, not just the apps that run on it. So the membership price would be up to Apple to eat.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JosephB

It's not as simple as just signing up and paying the fee. There are going to be certain requirements regarding many things to be certified, not the least of which would be DRM. Also, as peds48 said, so far they've only certified combination hardware/software products, so it's not entirely clear that a pure software product is possible

If DirecTV wanted it to happen, it'd happen. This isn't really the kind of thing that a third party is going to care about


----------



## CraigerM

Over at the other site their is a member their saying he is an installer and that the HS-17 is for IPTV installs only.


----------



## Troch2002

CraigerM said:


> Over at the other site their is a member their saying he is an installer and that the HS-17 is for IPTV installs only.


UH OH
That would make sense though for Directv Now subs taking it to the next level.
But it also doesn't make sense since the Picture clearly shows a Coax in for a Satellite.


----------



## compnurd

That is BS if you believe that i dont know what to tell you... The box has a coax on it labeled for SWM and the confirmed install we know was using a dish..... He got the information from a rep.. That sounds like the DirecTV rep at my local Costco who tells me every channel will be 4K this year...


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> That is BS if you believe that i dont know what to tell you... The box has a coax on it labeled for SWM and the confirmed install we know was using a dish..... He got the information from a rep.. That sounds like the DirecTV rep at my local Costco who tells me every channel will be 4K this year...


I was thinking the same thing since like you said it has a coax labeled SWM.


----------



## Troch2002

compnurd said:


> That sounds like the DirecTV rep at my local Costco who tells me every channel will be 4K this year...


I couldn't even walk by the Electronics department at Walmart yesterday because of one of these clowns.

Why do these store allow this?


----------



## HoTat2

compnurd said:


> That is BS if you believe that i dont know what to tell you... The box has a coax on it labeled for SWM and the confirmed install we know was using a dish..... He got the information from a rep.. That sounds like the DirecTV rep at my local Costco who tells me every channel will be 4K this year...


Yeah ...

Total baloney...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

Troch2002 said:


> Why do these store allow this?


Money. The stores (or chains) get paid to allow the third party vendors to work in their stores. Hopefully they get paid enough to make up for the customers that they chase out of the store. I avoid stores where their sales force or third party sales people harass me. There are plenty of other shopping options.


----------



## P Smith

CraigerM said:


> Over at the other site their is a member their saying he is an installer and that the HS-17 is for IPTV installs only.


why you did not object that post there - you've seen SWiM input on picture here !
who need to bring another BS from "other site" ? you are not new member and did read the thread 
it's done to provoke us ?


----------



## patmurphey

And the IPTV poster was called out over there, too...


----------



## James Long

Lets move on ...
(Says a moderator.)


----------



## CraigerM

Is the HS-17 already obsolete? Anyone see that Fios is revamping its TV service and hardware and is going all IPTV. They say they will have DVR that will be smaller than the current ones. Also their client boxes will be as small as a deck of cards one will have an Ethernet connection and the other one will have WIFI only. They are also going to combine their ONT and Gateway into one unit.

This Is the New Fios TV From Verizon | Light Reading


----------



## JosephB

CraigerM said:


> Is the HS-17 already obsolete? Anyone see that Fios is revamping its TV service and hardware and is going all IPTV. They say they will have DVR that will be smaller than the current ones. Also their client boxes will be as small as a deck of cards one will have an Ethernet connection and the other one will have WIFI only. They are also going to combine their ONT and Gateway into one unit.
> 
> This Is the New Fios TV From Verizon | Light Reading


Two different services.

1) AT&T is already "combining" the ONT and gateway for their fiber internet installs in some instances, and that will likely only keep expanding
2) The new IP-delivered FiOS is, as far as I can tell, only available if you are on FiOS for internet. IE: it's not an internet-delivered OTT service, it's just using IP to deliver video. Basically, how U-Verse TV works. Looks like this was developed in house at Verizon, whereas U-Verse TV was a Microsoft product that AT&T bought "off the shelf". DirecTV is available outside of any given wireline footprint. This gives a roadmap of where AT&T could take DirecTV's "full" product (meaning, DirecTV, not DirecTV NOW) for their internet customers, but a satellite delivered service that is likely to remain satellite delivered is different than a terrestrial-only TV service.

In other words, no, the HS17 isn't obsolete. However, it's obvious (and has been) that the HS17 isn't the last iteration of set top box/server/gateway that will be coming down the line


----------



## CraigerM

JosephB said:


> Two different services.
> 
> 1) AT&T is already "combining" the ONT and gateway for their fiber internet installs in some instances, and that will likely only keep expanding
> 2) The new IP-delivered FiOS is, as far as I can tell, only available if you are on FiOS for internet. IE: it's not an internet-delivered OTT service, it's just using IP to deliver video. Basically, how U-Verse TV works. Looks like this was developed in house at Verizon, whereas U-Verse TV was a Microsoft product that AT&T bought "off the shelf". DirecTV is available outside of any given wireline footprint. This gives a roadmap of where AT&T could take DirecTV's "full" product (meaning, DirecTV, not DirecTV NOW) for their internet customers, but a satellite delivered service that is likely to remain satellite delivered is different than a terrestrial-only TV service.
> 
> In other words, no, the HS17 isn't obsolete. However, it's obvious (and has been) that the HS17 isn't the last iteration of set top box/server/gateway that will be coming down the line


Sorry I know they are two different services I just meant the hardware.


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> Sorry I know they are two different services I just meant the hardware.


The hardware you speak of is not for DIRECTV. It is not even for AT&T. It has no connection to the HS-17.


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> The hardware you speak of is not for DIRECTV. It is not even for AT&T. It has no connection to the HS-17.


Sorry I guess the way I read it was they were going with smaller standalone DVR's as some on here has suggested. I read it again and I guess they are still doing the server/client system like some with a smaller headed server and client boxes.


----------



## compnurd

The current minis are pretty damn close to the size of a deck of cards and have had this edge for years.. I imagine we will see new minis next year maybe that may get even smaller that are Moca 2.0


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> Is the HS-17 already obsolete? Anyone see that Fios is revamping its TV service and hardware and is going all IPTV. They say they will have DVR that will be smaller than the current ones. Also their client boxes will be as small as a deck of cards one will have an Ethernet connection and the other one will have WIFI only. They are also going to combine their ONT and Gateway into one unit.
> 
> This Is the New Fios TV From Verizon | Light Reading


I know you always have this thing about ip, but its totally useless for a satellite company to go to an ip based system for its main distribution, and Directv already is IP for its on demand stuff. Pleas let that go...


----------



## inkahauts

compnurd said:


> The current minis are pretty damn close to the size of a deck of cards and have had this edge for years.. I imagine we will see new minis next year maybe that may get even smaller that are Moca 2.0


Not to mention you dont even need a box on a rvu tv.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Not to mention you dont even need a box on a rvu tv.


Yeah, but don't you lose certain features doing RVU? Plus you waste your TV CPU cycles on crypto stuff and DirecTV stuff. DirecTV video packets change the encryption key every 2 seconds. With a box, the decryption work gets off loaded to the ASIC in the access card.


----------



## P Smith

SledgeHammer said:


> your TV CPU cycles on crypto stuff


it's your WAG... have you seen an access card in RVU TV or minies ?


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> Yeah, but don't you lose certain features doing RVU? Plus you waste your TV CPU cycles on crypto stuff and DirecTV stuff. DirecTV video packets change the encryption key every 2 seconds. With a box, the decryption work gets off loaded to the ASIC in the access card.


What?

First you lose zero features. (Ok pip. But that's on the genie only). Otherwise it's identical to using a genie itself.

Second what are you worried about with the tv and processor? I've used my moms several times and it's fast, works smooth, and is great. No issues whatsoever. I do t know how you'd waste your tv CPU, what else would it be doing? Not to mention it's not wasted.

I know some early models had issues but today's new tvs seem to run fine. My moms is two years old Samsung. It was their high end one at the time. Can't recall the model.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> The current minis are pretty damn close to the size of a deck of cards and have had this edge for years.. I imagine we will see new minis next year maybe that may get even smaller that are Moca 2.0


The C61 (K and regular) is MoCA 2.0. I guess it hasn't been publicized yet since it is irrelevant for current hardware, but I'm sure they added that in preparation for the HS17.


----------



## SledgeHammer

P Smith said:


> it's your WAG... have you seen an access card in RVU TV or minies ?


No, duh. That's why the TV has to do it. DirecTV video packets are heavily encrypted. If you have an access card, its done on the ASIC. The whole concept of the field upgradable security since the first 4 generations kept getting hacked.


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> The C61 (K and regular) is MoCA 2.0. I guess it hasn't been publicized yet since it is irrelevant for current hardware, but I'm sure they added that in preparation for the HS17.


Awesome That is good to know when i go to replace my HR24 and H25 what I am ordering!


----------



## P Smith

SledgeHammer said:


> No, duh. That's why the TV has to do it. DirecTV video packets are heavily encrypted. If you have an access card, its done on the ASIC. The whole concept of the field upgradable security since the first 4 generations kept getting hacked.


Sorry, you have no knowledge of real processing an encrypted signal. Please stop posting nonsense.


----------



## compnurd

inkahauts said:


> What?
> 
> First you lose zero features. (Ok pip. But that's on the genie only). Otherwise it's identical to using a genie itself.
> 
> Second what are you worried about with the tv and processor? I've used my moms several times and it's fast, works smooth, and is great. No issues whatsoever. I do t know how you'd waste your tv CPU, what else would it be doing? Not to mention it's not wasted.
> 
> I know some early models had issues but today's new tvs seem to run fine. My moms is two years old Samsung. It was their high end one at the time. Can't recall the model.


You do lose Pandora... My only complaint with RVU is on most things it is faster than my C61k except for trickplay functions that is slightly slower


----------



## SledgeHammer

P Smith said:


> Sorry, you have no knowledge of real processing an encrypted signal. Please stop posting nonsense.


You should learn how DirecTV works.


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> You should learn how DirecTV works.


The encryption between a Genie and a client (whether it's an RVU TV or a Mini-Genie...they are exactly the same) and the encryption of the signal coming over the satellite is 10000% different

The access card (whether it is the built-in chip or a removable one) is decrypting all satellite signals all the time, no matter where you're watching or what your'e watching it on. The video is then re-encrypted using DTCP-IP for transmission to clients, which is totally different than the encryption used for the satellite signal, and utilizes different hardware.

Before you get snippy, you might want to learn how it works yourself.


----------



## slice1900

JosephB is correct. RVU relies on DTCP-IP to encrypt the server -> client stream. The Directv proprietary encryption handled by the access card is removed before the DTCP-IP encryption is applied.


----------



## P Smith

SledgeHammer said:


> You should learn how DirecTV works.


well ... what I could say ?! :facepalm:


----------



## inkahauts

Another thing to remember. RVU isn't a DIRECTV thing. It's a standard. (Even if dtv is the only one pushing it on the content side). So it won't be proprietary to DIRECTV on how it's encryption works inside your home.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> Another thing to remember. RVU isn't a DIRECTV thing. It's a standard. (Even if dtv is the only one pushing it on the content side). So it won't be proprietary to DIRECTV on how it's encryption works inside your home.


Well any company can create a protocol, get a few companies together to set up a licensing program, and claim it is a "standard". Jethead created RVU, I'm guessing at Directv's request though I don't know the history, and make that claim, but until someone besides Directv makes RVU servers it is silly to call it a standard. There is no formal standards body behind RVU, just the "RVU Alliance" of companies committed to using it along with Directv.

What is important is that RVU is built from true standards with broad acceptance across the industry like DLNA, uPNP and DTCP-IP, so it should be relatively simple to implement. I'm not sure what say Dish or Comcast are using for their IP client protocol, but it is probably similar. Just different enough that people can't use their own end devices and have to pay monthly fees. If Vidipath hadn't died on the vine, it would have been painless for Directv to convert from RVU since both are based on all the same building blocks, but unfortunately the cable lobby successfully killed it.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Well any company can create a protocol, get a few companies together to set up a licensing program, and claim it is a "standard". Jethead created RVU, I'm guessing at Directv's request though I don't know the history, and make that claim, but until someone besides Directv makes RVU servers it is silly to call it a standard. There is no formal standards body behind RVU, just the "RVU Alliance" of companies committed to using it along with Directv.
> 
> What is important is that RVU is built from true standards with broad acceptance across the industry like DLNA, uPNP and DTCP-IP, so it should be relatively simple to implement. I'm not sure what say Dish or Comcast are using for their IP client protocol, but it is probably similar. Just different enough that people can't use their own end devices and have to pay monthly fees. If Vidipath hadn't died on the vine, it would have been painless for Directv to convert from RVU since both are based on all the same building blocks, but unfortunately the cable lobby successfully killed it.


It's a standard open to anyone who wants to join. It's not proprietary to just DIRECTV. That's the point. And yes they are the only ones using it for a server standpoint. But many are from a client standpoint obviously.


----------



## CraigerM

inkahauts said:


> I know you always have this thing about ip, but its totally useless for a satellite company to go to an ip based system for its main distribution, and Directv already is IP for its on demand stuff. Pleas let that go...


I don't have a thing about DTV going to an all IP based system. I was just thinking it would be easier if you did want to have both the HS-17 and the client box in an entertainment center that you could the coax going into the HS-17 and Ethernet cable going to the client box without needing a two-way coax splitter. Then use WIFI to have the HS-17 connected to the Internet. I know some in this thread have said its because of cost but if Verizon can do a client box the size of a deck of cards with both Coax and Ethernet why can't DTV also? Does it sound like Verizon can make that box cheap being that size with Ethernet?


----------



## slice1900

Directv could make the "box" the size of a USB stick if they wanted, but it costs more. Future clients might be a bit smaller but there's a limit due to the ports. It could become a bit less wide if they removed the excess around the coax port, and I suppose the HDMI and USB could be vertical.

However, being "all IP" has nothing to with the size of a client. An RJ45 jack takes up the same space as an F81 connector. As I've told you more times than I can count, the Genie/client already is "all IP" as they use IP to communicate with each other. Just because that IP is carried via MoCA over coax instead of ethernet over cat5 doesn't change the fact it is IP.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> Directv could make the "box" the size of a USB stick if they wanted, but it costs more. Future clients might be a bit smaller but there's a limit due to the ports. It could become a bit less wide if they removed the excess around the coax port, and I suppose the HDMI and USB could be vertical.
> 
> However, being "all IP" has nothing to with the size of a client. An RJ45 jack takes up the same space as an F81 connector. As I've told you more times than I can count, the Genie/client already is "all IP" as they use IP to communicate with each other. Just because that IP is carried via MoCA over coax instead of ethernet over cat5 doesn't change the fact it is IP.


I was just saying I think it could be an easier install using Ethernet. They wouldn't have to use one coax going to a two-way splitter, then one coax going to the HS-17 and one going to the Client. They could just run one coax to the HS-17 and then run the Ethernet cable to the Client box. I know it has been said that it could go anywhere their is an open coax outlet but what if their isn't one?


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> I was just saying I think it could be an easier install using Ethernet. They wouldn't have to use one coax going to a two-way splitter, then one coax going to the HS-17 and one going to the Client. They could just run one coax to the HS-17 and then run the Ethernet cable to the Client box. I know it has been said that it could go anywhere their is an open coax outlet but what if their isn't one?


There is no point. I would venture 90% of houses don't have Ethernet at a TV location. They have coax. Or if neither there is wireless. Directv is catering to the masses. Not the few. This also keeps all video traffic off your home network which they want nothing to do with. Verizon is different since they are also selling you a home internet gateway and want to be involved with your home And again on this. The Ethernet port on the box is to provide internet to the box. Not back feed out a tv stream Ethernet is not easier to install for them. Coax just works No home routers or whatever else to deal with


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> There is no point. I would venture 90% of houses don't have Ethernet at a TV location. They have coax. Or if neither there is wireless. Directv is catering to the masses. Not the few. This also keeps all video traffic off your home network which they want nothing to do with. Verizon is different since they are also selling you a home internet gateway and want to be involved with your home And again on this. The Ethernet port on the box is to provide internet to the box. Not back feed out a tv stream Ethernet is not easier to install for them. Coax just works No home routers or whatever else to deal with


Again not saying running it over a customers home Ethernet network just reducing the amount of coax cables and not needing a splitter if they placed the HS-17 next to the client box by using just one Ethernet cable going from HS-17's Ethernet port to the Ethernet port on the back of a client box if they would ever add one to the client box. It seems to me that Verizon has found a way to make a smaller and cheaper client box with Ethernet and not add cost by adding an Ethernet port. Or just have a coax going into the HS-17 and a Ethernet going out from the HS-17 to the RVU TV's Ethernet port. They could then use the HS-17's WIFI for the Internet. I think that would be even easier than running a separate coax line to the HS-17 if all the Coax outlets were taken.


----------



## compnurd

How do you know it is cheaper for Verizon? Also by your scenario you could reduce a cable by just having a wireless client box next to the HS-17


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> How do you know it is cheaper for Verizon? Also by your scenario you could reduce a cable by just having a wireless client box next to the HS-17


Isn't smaller always cheaper? Also WIFI not as reliable as wired.


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> Isn't smaller always cheaper? Also WIFI not as reliable as wired.


No it isn't. And if wifi isn't not as reliable as wired then why do you want it for internet on your system for on demand and whatever possible streaming services it may support. And you may want to re read that article. Only the wireless client is supposed to be the size of a deck of cards


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> No it isn't. And if wifi isn't not as reliable as wired then why do you want it for internet on your system for on demand and whatever possible streaming services it may support. And you may want to re read that article. Only the wireless client is supposed to be the size of a deck of cards


Isn't that why they are going with Server/Client model because the Client boxes are smaller and cheaper than building standalone DVR's? Also isn't SatelliteTV over WIFI different than Internet WIFI?


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> Isn't that why they are going with Server/Client model because the Client boxes are smaller and cheaper than building standalone DVR's? Also isn't SatelliteTV over WIFI different than Internet WIFI?


That a dvr yes. However when it comes to clients which is what we have all been referring to here You can only go so small before it does become More expensive and again. Only the wireless client they are releasing is that small. It mentions nothing on the other box with Ethernet And no the wireless signal is not different . The current wireless bridge uses a 5ghz network for the tv signal just like your home router does except on its own private network


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> I don't have a thing about DTV going to an all IP based system. I was just thinking it would be easier if you did want to have both the HS-17 and the client box in an entertainment center that you could the coax going into the HS-17 and Ethernet cable going to the client box without needing a two-way coax splitter. Then use WIFI to have the HS-17 connected to the Internet. I know some in this thread have said its because of cost but if Verizon can do a client box the size of a deck of cards with both Coax and Ethernet why can't DTV also? Does it sound like Verizon can make that box cheap being that size with Ethernet?


I guess I should have said for Ethernet then, because you bring that up a lot too. It makes no sense to add that hardware to the clients. The more ways to connect the more cost, and there's no way they want to have to make and run Ethernet cables for all over a house, and not be able to use existing coax in the majority of homes throughout the country. It just isn't economical. Coax is simpler in every way, and still does everything that an Ethernet cable would do, with much less work. Clients are small now, and could be even smaller, but this is probably cheaper at the moment, so they are the size they are today. I didnt see anything about those clients from verizon to say they wheren't coax either anyway, did you? I wouldn't be surprised if they where coax connected.


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> Again not saying running it over a customers home Ethernet network just reducing the amount of coax cables and not needing a splitter if they placed the HS-17 next to the client box by using just one Ethernet cable going from HS-17's Ethernet port to the Ethernet port on the back of a client box if they would ever add one to the client box. It seems to me that Verizon has found a way to make a smaller and cheaper client box with Ethernet and not add cost by adding an Ethernet port. Or just have a coax going into the HS-17 and a Ethernet going out from the HS-17 to the RVU TV's Ethernet port. They could then use the HS-17's WIFI for the Internet. I think that would be even easier than running a separate coax line to the HS-17 if all the Coax outlets were taken.


You'd be wrong thinking that is easier than running a second coax or using a splitter and a tiny bit more of coax. Its way easier to run, build, cut, and terminate a coax cable. You have to build a system that will work best for every situation, not just a few, and Ethernet just isn't that.


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> Isn't smaller always cheaper? Also WIFI not as reliable as wired.


In terms of size, it can be cheaper sometimes to make something smaller due to wasted space. but, once you get to a certain point, it because more expensive to make it any smaller. In fact if becomes a lot more expensive at some point. You have to deal with so much heat in such smaller area that it changes how you have to build and what types of parts you can uyse to deal with all the issues. I am sure Directv is trying to find that point where its small as possible while still not expensive to build just because its smaller.


----------



## P Smith

CraigerM said:


> Isn't that why they are going with Server/Client model because the Client boxes are smaller and cheaper than building standalone DVR's? Also isn't SatelliteTV over WIFI different than Internet WIFI?


better if you will think about versatility of the client in term of video/audio processing, eg H.264 & H.265, DD5.1 & AAC, etc


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> I don't have a thing about DTV going to an all IP based system.


That is hard to believe when it seems that most of your posts seem to try to pull the discussion over to IP distribution. DIRECTV is a satellite service. They have chosen to go with a client server model to enhance the whole home experience. Content available on any TV in the house (and other devices). The HS-17 fits the design of putting a server out of the way and running small clients via the existing coax network. If you're going to put a client right next to the HS-17 you might as well get a Genie ... not try to add IP over Ethernet just to avoid a coax splitter. But your "thing" for IP is distracting you from understanding what the HS-17 will be and is distracting others who might not understand that the completely unrelated products you keep bringing to the thread have nothing to do with the HS-17.

So please, try to focus on DIRECTV satellite service - and the HS-17. Not the myriad of other services and their products.


----------



## espaeth

inkahauts said:


> You'd be wrong thinking that is easier than running a second coax or using a splitter and a tiny bit more of coax. Its way easier to run, build, cut, and terminate a coax cable. You have to build a system that will work best for every situation, not just a few, and Ethernet just isn't that.


It's also substantially easier from a SKU management standpoint for materials that techs are going to have to carry. They already have to stock messenger/straight coax today to account for dish grounding on coax runs, but at least all of the compression fittings for terminating the coax cables are the same throughout.

You add Ethernet to the mix, now you have to purchase, store, distribute, and manage inventory for yet another cable spool type for all your field techs, supply them with a completely different cable end (RJ45s), give them the necessary tools to terminate those cables, etc. All of those details rack up costs surprisingly quickly.

To your point, all this stuff is setup for the wiring configurations to be optimized for the installing technicians, not necessarily for the end consumer.


----------



## JosephB

espaeth said:


> It's also substantially easier from a SKU management standpoint for materials that techs are going to have to carry. They already have to stock messenger/straight coax today to account for dish grounding on coax runs, but at least all of the compression fittings for terminating the coax cables are the same throughout.
> 
> You add Ethernet to the mix, now you have to purchase, store, distribute, and manage inventory for yet another cable spool type for all your field techs, supply them with a completely different cable end (RJ45s), give them the necessary tools to terminate those cables, etc. All of those details rack up costs surprisingly quickly.
> 
> To your point, all this stuff is setup for the wiring configurations to be optimized for the installing technicians, not necessarily for the end consumer.


I agree that on the whole, coax is easier and probably cheaper for them to deal with. However, with AT&T moving more and more installs to their own pre-merger employees, they are actually more experienced with and primarily deal with Ethernet. U-Verse TV could be distributed over coax, but if they encountered a home with no wiring, Ethernet was the preferred distribution method.

Over time I would expect to see a loosening up of the aversion to Ethernet that DirecTV had prior to the merger. I'm sure they will keep using coax, and it might even remain the "preferred" way (or at least for some installers) but that Ethernet distribution could become an "approved" method, especially for U-Verse to DirecTV conversions, since a good chunk of those U-Verse TV homes are going to have Ethernet.


----------



## slice1900

They'd have to introduce a new client with an RJ45 jack, or add one to the C71 or whatever comes next. Since nothing like that has shown up on the FCC site nor the RVU Alliance site, it isn't around the corner.

They're shedding Uverse TV subscribers at a rate of over a million a year; they're down to about 4.5 million now, so they better hurry if they plan to use ethernet as a migration strategy, because they'll probably be about gone by the end of the decade. Almost all of those Uverse homes also have coax, so it probably doesn't matter too much.

Though you could be right about the AT&T influence eventually getting Directv over their aversion to dealing with a customer's home network. They already rely on it for the outgoing internet connection, so if they set up an ethernet network with its own Directv/AT&T labeled router that kept the RVU traffic isolated on the 169.254 subnet like DECA does it wouldn't really be any different than the coax and green label splitter solution of today.


----------



## inkahauts

JosephB said:


> I agree that on the whole, coax is easier and probably cheaper for them to deal with. However, with AT&T moving more and more installs to their own pre-merger employees, they are actually more experienced with and primarily deal with Ethernet. U-Verse TV could be distributed over coax, but if they encountered a home with no wiring, Ethernet was the preferred distribution method.
> 
> Over time I would expect to see a loosening up of the aversion to Ethernet that DirecTV had prior to the merger. I'm sure they will keep using coax, and it might even remain the "preferred" way (or at least for some installers) but that Ethernet distribution could become an "approved" method, especially for U-Verse to DirecTV conversions, since a good chunk of those U-Verse TV homes are going to have Ethernet.


You may be forgetting something. Att bought DIRECTV because Uverse has done terribly and DIRECTV has done great so they wanted to be better. Maybe they'll learn from DIRECTV that making client with two connections is a waste of time money and energy both in production and application.

And it's not an aversion. It's practicality. There's nothing to gain going Ethernet. Nothing. There's plenty to go wrong though.

And everyone always talks about Ethernet Uverse. I've seen many systems in my area, I've never seen one with Ethernet. They are all coax. I have to wonder how much they actually used Ethernet. Has anyone on here had Uverse with Ethernet being the only connection?


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> They're shedding Uverse TV subscribers at a rate of over a million a year; they're down to about 4.5 million now, so they better hurry if they plan to use ethernet as a migration strategy, because they'll probably be about gone by the end of the decade. Almost all of those Uverse homes also have coax, so it probably doesn't matter too much.
> 
> Though you could be right about the AT&T influence eventually getting Directv over their aversion to dealing with a customer's home network. They already rely on it for the outgoing internet connection, so if they set up an ethernet network with its own Directv/AT&T labeled router that kept the RVU traffic isolated on the 169.254 subnet like DECA does it wouldn't really be any different than the coax and green label splitter solution of today.


Your second paragraph is more along the lines of where I was going, not necessarily that they'd switch to Ethernet or use it as a "migration strategy". Basically, if it's available, use it. Or, if it's more practical for a given situation, use it. Primarily for RVU TVs, but there's nothing preventing an ethernet equipped client from dropping relatively quickly.



inkahauts said:


> You may be forgetting something. Att bought DIRECTV because Uverse has done terribly and DIRECTV has done great so they wanted to be better. Maybe they'll learn from DIRECTV that making client with two connections is a waste of time money and energy both in production and application.
> 
> And it's not an aversion. It's practicality. There's nothing to gain going Ethernet. Nothing. There's plenty to go wrong though.
> 
> And everyone always talks about Ethernet Uverse. I've seen many systems in my area, I've never seen one with Ethernet. They are all coax. I have to wonder how much they actually used Ethernet. Has anyone on here had Uverse with Ethernet being the only connection?


I bought a house that had Charter cable in 2013 according to the date inside the demarc box outside and the previous owners had U-Verse up until last March when I bought the house. AT&T had re-wired each TV location with Ethernet and left the previous coax alone.

And in terms of what's to gain or not from Ethernet...for customers in AT&T's internet footprint and who are taking AT&T internet, they use Ethernet all the time. The connection from the outside ONT (the box that terminates the fiber) to the gateway/'modem' inside is Ethernet.


----------



## inkahauts

JosephB said:


> Your second paragraph is more along the lines of where I was going, not necessarily that they'd switch to Ethernet or use it as a "migration strategy". Basically, if it's available, use it. Or, if it's more practical for a given situation, use it. Primarily for RVU TVs, but there's nothing preventing an ethernet equipped client from dropping relatively quickly.
> 
> I bought a house that had Charter cable in 2013 according to the date inside the demarc box outside and the previous owners had U-Verse up until last March when I bought the house. AT&T had re-wired each TV location with Ethernet and left the previous coax alone.
> 
> And in terms of what's to gain or not from Ethernet...for customers in AT&T's internet footprint and who are taking AT&T internet, they use Ethernet all the time. The connection from the outside ONT (the box that terminates the fiber) to the gateway/'modem' inside is Ethernet.


Sure for giga. They won't need satelites anyway most likely. But non giga areas... I don't see them worrying about dsl houses moving to Ethernet. I'd say there giga footprint not internet myself.


----------



## RAD

Or just forget wiring and use wireless, problem solved.


----------



## slice1900

[Comment moved to new thread]

Getting back to the HS17, since the C61/C61K clients are MoCA 2.0 to go along with the HS17's faster coax networking, I wonder if the C61W-400 (made by WNC....when did they start making set top boxes??) on the RVU Alliance site is likewise using 802.11ac, designed to talk to the HS17's faster wireless networking?


----------



## James Long

UVerse install discussion moved to a new thread ---
UVerse Installation


----------



## slice1900

I saw recently that LG is rumored to support 4Kp120 input on its 2018 OLED TVs, which will include at least one HDMI 2.1 input. That provides a perfect example of why a headless Genie makes sense.

If the HS17 was designed with video output, it could not have support for 4Kp120 output because HDMI 2.1 didn't exist when it was being designed. As it is, Directv merely needs a new model of client.

Given ESPN's statements about the importance of frame rate, I'm starting to wonder if the reason we haven't seen a 4K ESPN channel yet is that they are waiting for 4Kp120 support before launching...


----------



## JosephB

I think the reason you haven't seen a 4K ESPN channel is simply cost and lack of capacity. DirecTV is pretty much the only provider that can be counted on to carry it. Cable definitely doesn't have the capacity, and Dish is pretty constrained as well. Plus, how many events does ESPN do that they would have 4K equipment available? Probably only big special events like championship games. The day to day stuff isn't produced by ESPN and the regional production houses and trucks aren't 4K yet.


----------



## AZ.

JosephB said:


> I think the reason you haven't seen a 4K ESPN channel is simply cost and lack of capacity. DirecTV is pretty much the only provider that can be counted on to carry it. Cable definitely doesn't have the capacity, and Dish is pretty constrained as well. Plus, how many events does ESPN do that they would have 4K equipment available? Probably only big special events like championship games. The day to day stuff isn't produced by ESPN and the regional production houses and trucks aren't 4K yet.


Rogers in Canada has been having 4K hockey games for the last year and a half......No real excuses.....Just excuses....


----------



## compnurd

I think ESPN is due to all of the issues over there right now. They are bleeding money pretty good right now


----------



## Bigg

JosephB said:


> I think the reason you haven't seen a 4K ESPN channel is simply cost and lack of capacity. DirecTV is pretty much the only provider that can be counted on to carry it. Cable definitely doesn't have the capacity, and Dish is pretty constrained as well. Plus, how many events does ESPN do that they would have 4K equipment available? Probably only big special events like championship games. The day to day stuff isn't produced by ESPN and the regional production houses and trucks aren't 4K yet.


ESPN or the RSNs could easily produce at least some content in 4k, and the real sports nuts and sports bars are all on DirecTV anyway. The bigger question is how ESPN makes any money off of it over what they do now. Does anyone know what the cameras and trucks are? I.e. would it be easy for them to convert to 1080i60 for higher quality, or even 1080p? Or would that require all new trucks?


----------



## JosephB

Bigg said:


> ESPN or the RSNs could easily produce at least some content in 4k, and the real sports nuts and sports bars are all on DirecTV anyway. The bigger question is how ESPN makes any money off of it over what they do now. Does anyone know what the cameras and trucks are? I.e. would it be easy for them to convert to 1080i60 for higher quality, or even 1080p? Or would that require all new trucks?


It would require a lot of new equipment in the trucks, not just cameras. And the real trick is that ESPN doesn't own most of the trucks, they're mostly independent production crews that ESPN contracts out


----------



## slice1900

There is no such thing as "1080i60". No TV will accept a 1080i signal with 60 frames / 120 fields per second, and no set top box will output it, so it would be as useless to broadcast as broadcasting an 8K signal today would. A surprising number of older HDTVs will not accept 1080p60, there are no broadcast standards for 1080p60, and AFAIK Directv's HD receivers aren't capable of outputting 1080p60, only 1080p24. If a channel wants to go beyond 720p/1080i, they have to go all the way to 4K, there is no possible interim step.

Anyway, regardless of when 4Kp120 appears or who does it, having the flexibility to only require the replacement of clients to support it makes a lot of sense. Typically people put their whole home DVR on the "main TV", which would be the one most likely to get upgraded to 4Kp120 capability first, so the upgrades would hit those more expensive boxes first. With the server being headless, Directv won't need to replace them except for age, and only swap clients.

They clearly designed the C6x series with the HS17 in mind by putting MoCA 2.0 in the C61 and I have to assume faster wireless to match the HS17's in the C61W. 4Kp120 wasn't on the radar for the C61K, so down the road they'll need a new one there, but on the whole it looks like they'll have things pretty well sorted once the HS17 is released. People have complained about the HR54 being a crappy solution for 4K because it doesn't output 4K, but by the time they introduced that interim 4K solution they had obviously already decided on their headless strategy for the future. The HR54 is sort of a hybrid step along that path - it is a regular Genie as far as HD is concerned, but a headless server as far as 4K is concerned.


----------



## Laxguy

Nicely summed up.....


----------



## Bigg

JosephB said:


> It would require a lot of new equipment in the trucks, not just cameras. And the real trick is that ESPN doesn't own most of the trucks, they're mostly independent production crews that ESPN contracts out


It being 1080i60 or 1080p60 or 2160p60?



slice1900 said:


> There is no such thing as "1080i60". No TV will accept a 1080i signal with 60 frames / 120 fields per second


1080i60 is 60 interlaced frames per second, or 30 complete frames per second. It is what about 60% of channels use today. You're nitpicking nomenclature.



> Anyway, regardless of when 4Kp120 appears or who does it, having the flexibility to only require the replacement of clients to support it makes a lot of sense.


That sort of makes sense, but who is going to have the bandwidth to transmit 2160p120? Or does the HEVC make it a small upgrade in bandwidth from 2160p60, since the delta between each frame drops in half even though the number of frames double?

I wish ESPN would just convert *everything* to 1080i, as opposed to a few things to 2160p, keeping a lot of stuff at 720p. 720p is a lousy format in today's world, 1080i would more than double the overall quality with little bandwidth penalty. Heck, the whole industry just needs to give up on 720p and move to the far superior 1080i.


----------



## Laxguy

The move from 720p to 1080i gets you very little, if anything. Quality of the feed is more important than any difference between those two.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> There is no such thing as "1080i60". No TV will accept a 1080i signal with 60 frames / 120 fields per second, and no set top box will output it, so it would be as useless to broadcast as broadcasting an 8K signal today would. A surprising number of older HDTVs will not accept 1080p60, there are no broadcast standards for 1080p60, and AFAIK Directv's HD receivers aren't capable of outputting 1080p60, only 1080p24. If a channel wants to go beyond 720p/1080i, they have to go all the way to 4K, there is no possible interim step. ...


That's interesting ... didn't know that.

Are these older HDTVs which cannot accept a 1080p60 input the early 720p types?

As I can't imagine any 1080p HDTV not accepting a 1080p60 signal since that is even the actual display rate most of them use.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

Bigg said:


> ... 1080i60 is 60 interlaced frames per second, or 30 complete frames per second. It is what about 60% of channels use today. You're nitpicking nomenclature. ...


Think you meant "1080i60 is 60 fields per second, or 30 complete interlaced frames per second ... " 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Beerstalker

Most HDTV's (up until probably the last five years or so I would guess) didn't accept 1080p60 because there wasn't anything that output at 1080p60 except computers, and most people don't hook computers up to their TVs. They just needed to accept 1080i for cable/satellite/ATSC, and 1080p24 for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD. Once you started seeing stuff like the Apple TV, Roku etc. then they started adding different signals they would accept since they started using different framerates.


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> .......
> 
> 1080i60 is 60 interlaced frames per second, or 30 complete frames per second. It is what about 60% of channels use today. You're nitpicking nomenclature.
> 
> ......


Its really not nit picking. Frame rates are what are always used when denoting things like 1080i30. Not field rates. You seem to be saying field rates, although you said frames twice. They are very different things to actually say. I have never seen anyone use field rates and not frame rates in this way on purpose. You are honestly the first person I have seen do that.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> That sort of makes sense, but who is going to have the bandwidth to transmit 2160p120? Or does the HEVC make it a small upgrade in bandwidth from 2160p60, since the delta between each frame drops in half even though the number of frames double?
> 
> I wish ESPN would just convert *everything* to 1080i, as opposed to a few things to 2160p, keeping a lot of stuff at 720p. 720p is a lousy format in today's world, 1080i would more than double the overall quality with little bandwidth penalty. Heck, the whole industry just needs to give up on 720p and move to the far superior 1080i.


For fast motion sports, many including me feel 720p produces better results than 1080i. Perhaps you don't agree, but either way ESPN is not going to change to 1080i, so if you want to see higher resolution you have to wait for them to introduce a 4K channel.

120 fps won't double bandwidth requirements, because the whole point of MPEG video compression is to save bandwidth compared to doing JPEG style compression of individual frames, but I don't know what the expected increase would be. If Directv plans to allocate 30 Mbps to a typical 4K channel, presumably a 4Kp120 channel would get more, just like they devote more bandwidth to some HD channels than others. Transponder bonding allows them more flexibility, as they aren't limited to the 39.4 Mbps they get from a typical CONUS Ka transponder today.

I think it is safe to say Directv will have ample bandwidth for 4K channels, even 4Kp120, when they start using reverse band. Most if not all cable providers plan to deliver their 4K channels using DOCSIS 3.1 based IP multicasting, not traditional QAM channels, so bandwidth won't be an issue. Mediacom is already there (in the nationwide rollout of DOCSIS 3.1 completed sense, not in the 4K sense) and Comcast is pushing hard.

Once again, it isn't important if the first 4Kp120 channel begins broadcasting a year from today, or takes years to appear, Directv will be fully prepared for it with the HS17. I'm willing to bet they have a client capable of 4Kp120 on a drawing board somewhere, if not an engineering mockup in a lab. They will know far enough in advance when it is needed to insure customers can get it when the first 4Kp120 channel arrives. The C61K used first generation HEVC chips, making it physically larger and more power hungry than HD clients. Perhaps not long after the HS17 rolls out we'll see a smaller second generation 4K client that adds unadvertised support for HDMI 2.1 for the 4Kp120 future, similar to how the "6 series" clients added unadvertised support for MoCA 2.0 for the HS17 future. I'm not aware of any particular reason why adding HDMI 2.1 support would add much cost. It isn't quite free, but there is no licensing upcharge, so it is just a matter of when HDMI 2.1 PHYs become available.


----------



## JosephB

Bigg said:


> It being 1080i60 or 1080p60 or 2160p60?


I'd place a wager most of them are already equipped to handle 1080i, but even if they're only able to handle 720 at this point, the only upgrades that make sense is to go all the way to 4K. Spending tens of thousands on routers, monitors, and cameras just to get to the state of the art 10 years ago doesn't make sense


----------



## koors3669

Hs17 (from DirecTV rep in advanced tech support) was told it will support 2 4k streams. As well as over 20 tuners. This system is already being beta tested and is working beautifully. Expect an announcement at directv's revolution conference.


----------



## Stevies3

What is expected release date?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

Yeah the pre-beta document an installer who installed a few for testing posted stated the same thing about two 4K streams. Still wondering exactly why that limit would exist. Even if it is handling the bonded transponders in software (which it must if Directv is not using DVB-S2X) I have a hard time seeing why it couldn't easily handle 7 (the max number of bonded 4K channels you could manage given 15 SWM channels) My money is on that being an artificial limit imposed by software that will be lifted down the road.

As for 20 tuners, what we've seen (SWM-15 on the coax input, resumes from people involved with it, doing the math given available chips) suggests 15. Sure, they could make it support more if they wanted, but who exactly is the target market for more than 15 tuners? They're going to have to allow for more than one HS17 on an account if this is their long term direction, so there's little value in making each one cost a few bucks more to add tuners a tiny fraction of 1% of their userbase will ever use. Make those outliers get a second one.

Expected release appears to be August, with a couple markets getting them in April. So announcing it at the Revolution conference in a week and a half seems like a good bet. We'll know much more then.


----------



## CraigerM

I saw DTV's Revolution Conference is March 20th is that right? However looks like I will have to get the HR-54/C61k anyway. Not sure if I even need 15 tuners. HR-44 that I have the picture is starting freeze sometimes. I just ordered a Sony 65" 4k TV and it will be delivered next Saturday. Got the protection plan so the upgrade will be free.


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> I saw DTV's Revolution Conference is March 20th is that right? However looks like I will have to get the HR-54/C61k anyway. Not sure if I even need 15 tuners. HR-44 that I have the picture is starting freeze sometimes. I just ordered a Sony 65" 4k TV and it will be delivered next Saturday. Got the protection plan so the upgrade will be free.


It will still have a 2 year agreement I believe.. You may want to save that and hold out until this gets more pop on the 20th


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> Yeah the pre-beta document an installer who installed a few for testing posted stated the same thing about two 4K streams. Still wondering exactly why that limit would exist.


Probably starting to run into bandwidth issues on the DECA network. Think about it: two 4K streams and however many remaining HD streams. Also, going to start running into bandwidth problems on the hard drive


----------



## slice1900

JosephB said:


> Probably starting to run into bandwidth issues on the DECA network. Think about it: two 4K streams and however many remaining HD streams. Also, going to start running into bandwidth problems on the hard drive


The HS17, C61 and C61K all support MoCA 2.0, which has a minimum spec of 400 Mbps and can be as high as 800 Mbps depending on if they use twin channels. That's more than enough for the seven 4K channels it would max out at - at 30 Mbps per 4K channel that's barely half of 400 Mbps.

But could be that they won't enable the MoCA 2.0 capability right away, maybe that's why the initial support for only two 4K streams...


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> The HS17, C61 and C61K all support MoCA 2.0, which has a minimum spec of 400 Mbps and can be as high as 800 Mbps depending on if they use twin channels. That's more than enough for the seven 4K channels it would max out at.


That's what the spec allows, but is that what DirecTV is counting on having available? You have to think they are building in some allowances for less than perfect networking

Also, is this 4K limit on the tuner side or on the stream side? Could you record more than 2 4K programs at once? or could you watch 3 recorded 4K things at once?

Are you limited to 2 4K clients period, or just 2 4K sessions at once?


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I saw DTV's Revolution Conference is March 20th is that right? However looks like I will have to get the HR-54/C61k anyway. Not sure if I even need 15 tuners. HR-44 that I have the picture is starting freeze sometimes. I just ordered a Sony 65" 4k TV and it will be delivered next Saturday. Got the protection plan so the upgrade will be free.


If the HR44 is starting to freeze you should get it replaced as defective. Then you'd still have your upgrade available if you want the HS17 later this year when its available. Even if like most people you have no need of 15 tuners, it is bound to be faster than the HR44/HR54, and may get new features added down the road old school Genies never do.

Well, assuming they consider Genie -> Genie Air to be an "upgrade". You never know with Directv...


----------



## slice1900

JosephB said:


> That's what the spec allows, but is that what DirecTV is counting on having available? You have to think they are building in some allowances for less than perfect networking
> 
> Also, is this 4K limit on the tuner side or on the stream side? Could you record more than 2 4K programs at once? or could you watch 3 recorded 4K things at once?
> 
> Are you limited to 2 4K clients period, or just 2 4K sessions at once?


Hopefully some of these questions will be answered in two weeks, but even then I wouldn't count on those answers to remain set in stone. Like I pointed out in an earlier post, Directv seems to have prepared pretty well to make the HS17 a very long lived box. So I find hard to imagine they would somehow design themselves into a corner with something permanently limited in the 4K realm.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> If the HR44 is starting to freeze you should get it replaced as defective. Then you'd still have your upgrade available if you want the HS17 later this year when its available. Even if like most people you have no need of 15 tuners, it is bound to be faster than the HR44/HR54, and may get new features added down the road old school Genies never do.
> 
> Well, assuming they consider Genie -> Genie Air to be an "upgrade". You never know with Directv...


After the HS-17 comes out I wonder if you would be guaranteed an HS-17 with the HR-54 still being available?


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> Hopefully some of these questions will be answered in two weeks, but even then I wouldn't count on those answers to remain set in stone. Like I pointed out in an earlier post, Directv seems to have prepared pretty well to make the HS17 a very long lived box. So I find hard to imagine they would somehow design themselves into a corner with something permanently limited in the 4K realm.


Maybe, but look at how much they iterated on the Genie, even without adding any functionality until the HR-54. Just because this looks like it could last a while doesn't mean they can't/won't change it next year or in two years. Given that a final solution for U-Verse/IPTV customers is still outstanding and they are about to start rolling out 5G, I don't see them standing still even after they release this one. It being a good, stable platform could just mean that it's a good stable platform to base future modifications on.



CraigerM said:


> After the HS-17 comes out I wonder if you would be guaranteed an HS-17 with the HR-54 still being available?


There are probably going to be ways to assure that you get one of these. Prime example would likely be single TV 4K customers


----------



## slice1900

JosephB said:


> Maybe, but look at how much they iterated on the Genie, even without adding any functionality until the HR-54. Just because this looks like it could last a while doesn't mean they can't/won't change it next year or in two years. Given that a final solution for U-Verse/IPTV customers is still outstanding and they are about to start rolling out 5G, I don't see them standing still even after they release this one. It being a good, stable platform could just mean that it's a good stable platform to base future modifications on.


Oh I'm not suggesting they'll never introduce another model, but I think they will be essentially identical other than maybe hard drive capacity. When the chips they are using get superceded, or they have an opportunity for cost reduction, we'll see a new model. But I'm betting the replacement(s) won't do anything that the HS17 can't. Because it won't need to.


----------



## CraigerM

If the HS-17 supports wireless RVU would that be a cool connection to do with an RVU TV or client box? I guess it would depend on what type of wireless range it would have?


----------



## slice1900

I see that Solid Signal published a white paper about the use of HR54s for commercial establishments to get 4K that I mentioned a couple weeks ago (with DVR services disabled for those like bars not allowed to use them)

The funny thing is that it treats the HR54 like an HS17 - it says you aren't supposed to hook up the HR54 to a TV, and apparently not any other clients, only the C61K(!) For every 4K TV, you'd need another HR54/C61K pair at $268. Man what a cluster* that solution is, if I wanted to upgrade all my TVs to 4K I'd need to engineer quite the messy setup to support over a dozen SWM16s, not to mention finding room for all those useless HR54s! 

Good thing I have no desire to catch the 4K train anytime soon, but hopefully that solution will get a lot cleaner with the HS17. Regardless I'm sure I'll pick one up when they become available along with a 4K and regular client to play around with.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> If the HS-17 supports wireless RVU would that be a cool connection to do with an RVU TV or client box? I guess it would depend on what type of wireless range it would have?


It supports wireless RVU to clients, like the existing Genie does. Since the Genie currently doesn't support wireless RVU to a RVU TV, I wouldn't hold my breath for Directv to support that with the HS17.


----------



## CraigerM

The other thing we don't know is if the HS-17 will be a server/client only system with its own separate dish? Also if the HS-17 is a separate server/client system will it work along side the current H/HR equipment and that dish?


----------



## slice1900

There's no technical reason it wouldn't work, but Directv could make a decision for other reasons not to allow it.

I wonder if they enforced that for testing to avoid MoCA 1.1 / 2.0 issues? They are designed to interoperate, but they might have wanted to reduce the variables during testing. We'll probably have to wait until August to find out the scoop.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> There's no technical reason it wouldn't work, but Directv could make a decision for other reasons not to allow it.
> 
> I wonder if they enforced that for testing to avoid MoCA 1.1 / 2.0 issues? They are designed to interoperate, but they might have wanted to reduce the variables during testing. We'll probably have to wait until August to find out the scoop.


Or maybe at the DirecTV Revolution Conference we will found out its capabilities?


----------



## Bigg

Laxguy said:


> The move from 720p to 1080i gets you very little, if anything. Quality of the feed is more important than any difference between those two.


Well actually, if you have a decent bitrate, switching from 720p to 1080i gets you a LOT more clarity, with very little, if any noticable loss in smoothness, assuming you have a good de-interlacer. Content like basketball benefits a lot from 1080i, even though ESPN does about as good of doing a 720p feed as anyone.



HoTat2 said:


> That's interesting ... didn't know that.
> 
> Are these older HDTVs which cannot accept a 1080p60 input the early 720p types?


The first generation or two of 1080p TVs didn't accept 1080p. At the time all the source content was 1080i or 720p, so the idea is they would display either equally as well vs. choosing between a 1080i or 720p TV.



inkahauts said:


> Its really not nit picking. Frame rates are what are always used when denoting things like 1080i30. Not field rates. You seem to be saying field rates, although you said frames twice. They are very different things to actually say. I have never seen anyone use field rates and not frame rates in this way on purpose. You are honestly the first person I have seen do that.


Again, you're nitpicking terminology. I understand how the technology of 1080i works, but in terms of terminology, I think it's more correct to say 60 frames per second, understanding that each frame only has half of the lines in it in an interlaced signal, allowing a good de-interlacer to effectively transform a 1080i60 signal into a 1080p60 signal with the full set of lines in every frame.



slice1900 said:


> For fast motion sports, many including me feel 720p produces better results than 1080i. Perhaps you don't agree, but either way ESPN is not going to change to 1080i, so if you want to see higher resolution you have to wait for them to introduce a 4K channel.


I'm not surprised that ESPN is stubborn about 1080i, but I have watched both 1080i and 720p for similar content (basketball), and there is no question that 1080i is a better looking picture. The only reason for 720p is for people with crappy deinterlacers. I'd rather have a nice 1080i feed so I can choose how good of a deinterlacer to get clean, smooth motion I use versus a 720p feed with less resolution where there's nothing I can do to make it sharper. I can see the deinterlacing artifacts, but they are rare and far between compared to the lack of sharpness in 720p that is there during the whole game.



> 120 fps won't double bandwidth requirements, because the whole point of MPEG video compression is to save bandwidth compared to doing JPEG style compression of individual frames, but I don't know what the expected increase would be.


That makes sense. The deltas are much smaller between each frame. Then again, I have no clue what the point of 2160p120 is. There is no 2160i60, although that would be an awesome format for "bang for the buck" in terms of bandwidth usage. I suppose if there are only a couple of channels that go 4k, then bandwidth doesn't really matter, since DirecTV has the entire RB.



> I think it is safe to say Directv will have ample bandwidth for 4K channels, even 4Kp120, when they start using reverse band. Most if not all cable providers plan to deliver their 4K channels using DOCSIS 3.1 based IP multicasting, not traditional QAM channels, so bandwidth won't be an issue.


Cable isn't there yet. They have DOCSIS 3.1, but they need to convert their TV service over to IPTV before they will have a enough DOCSIS bandwidth to deliver 4k at scale. Comcast has already deliver 2160p60 via IPTV (through an app not a box), but so few people could get it that it didn't matter from a bandwidth perspective. They might be able to deliver a channel or two to a few subscribers at an extra charge now, a few years down the road they may be able to start scaling it up via IPTV.



> Once again, it isn't important if the first 4Kp120 channel begins broadcasting a year from today, or takes years to appear, Directv will be fully prepared for it with the HS17. I'm willing to bet they have a client capable of 4Kp120 on a drawing board somewhere, if not an engineering mockup in a lab. They will know far enough in advance when it is needed to insure customers can get it when the first 4Kp120 channel arrives. The C61K used first generation HEVC chips, making it physically larger and more power hungry than HD clients. Perhaps not long after the HS17 rolls out we'll see a smaller second generation 4K client that adds unadvertised support for HDMI 2.1 for the 4Kp120 future, similar to how the "6 series" clients added unadvertised support for MoCA 2.0 for the HS17 future. I'm not aware of any particular reason why adding HDMI 2.1 support would add much cost. It isn't quite free, but there is no licensing upcharge, so it is just a matter of when HDMI 2.1 PHYs become available.


Yeah, the architecture of the HS17 is good for the future. I'm not convinced we'll ever see 2160p120 or that there is any point to it, but it will be ready to handle anything from HD through 2160p120 if/when that ever comes along the line, and it will allow them to push 4k more to multiple TVs, maybe making the service a bit more sticky for higher end subscribers if they can get the content in line.



JosephB said:


> I'd place a wager most of them are already equipped to handle 1080i, but even if they're only able to handle 720 at this point, the only upgrades that make sense is to go all the way to 4K. Spending tens of thousands on routers, monitors, and cameras just to get to the state of the art 10 years ago doesn't make sense


Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out.


----------



## peds48

Bigg said:


> Again, you're nitpicking terminology. I understand how the technology of 1080i works, but in terms of terminology, I think it's more correct to say 60 frames per second, understanding that each frame only has half of the lines in it in an interlaced signal, allowing a good de-interlacer to effectively transform a 1080i60 signal into a 1080p60 signal with the full set of lines in every frame.
> 
> .


There are FIELDS and Frames rates and those CAN'T be used interchangeably.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

Lets keep the discussion on the HS-17.


----------



## slice1900

I'm curious how the installation process will work. According what ROK5TAR posted a couple months ago, "To navigate the HS17 installation process without a direct TV connection, technicians will use a new app for the technician handheld along with LED light indicators on the server".

That's great for installers, but I sure hope that a proprietary app that only installers have is not the only way to talk to these things once they are officially released. Hopefully there's a web server for config like wireless routers have, or they'll expand the SHEF command set, or add some functionality to the iOS/Android Directv app, or something. They better make it possible for someone other than Directv employees to configure/troubleshoot, or it will be a huge step backwards.


----------



## dengland

Just discovered the thread. Interesting.

I have an uncommon setup I would expect. In my den I am controlling an HR22 with a Crestron control system (RS232 -> USB in the HR22). Those days are coming to an end....


----------



## carl6

dengland said:


> Just discovered the thread. Interesting.
> I have an uncommon setup I would expect. In my den I am controlling an HR22 with a Crestron control system (RS232 -> USB in the HR22). Those days are coming to an end....


I'm sure that the RS232 interface is still available in the Genie series (HR34/44/54). No reason to believe it would not be available in the HS17.


----------



## slice1900

The HS17 has a USB port, but since it is a headless server you wouldn't want to interface with that, you'd want to interface with the clients. I have no idea if the clients support serial commands over USB. Anyone know?

Probably you'd want to start using HTTP control over the network instead. I'm sure your Crestron supports that, or can with the right hardware. With HTTP control all the commands for the clients are sent to the server, and the command identifies which client you want to control (change channel, power off, whatever) via the MAC address.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> or it will be a huge step backwards.


Why? There is not much to change at the server. Most of what you need to change would be at the client.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> That's great for installers, but I sure hope that a proprietary app that only installers have is not the only way to talk to these things once they are officially released. Hopefully there's a web server for config like wireless routers have, or they'll expand the SHEF command set, or add some functionality to the iOS/Android Directv app, or something. They better make it possible for someone other than Directv employees to configure/troubleshoot, or it will be a huge step backwards.


I'm confused. When I brought up this point a month or two ago, you strongly disagreed and said that there would never be a need for this .

Besides, DirecTV doesn't really like you to self install anymore. 4K requires professional installs, even just upgrading to a Genie requires a professional install (even if you already have a SWM dish).

I'm going to assume that a CSR will tell you to hit the red button and if that doesn't work, they'll force you to do a truck roll since there won't be any way for a user to check anything.

Don't think about what will be good for customers, think about what will be good for DirecTVs wallet:

1) CSRs have been getting dumber and dumber over the years, now they will not have to know anything besides how to hit the red button and how to set up a truck roll. Less training = cheaper employees and more $$$ for DirecTV

2) More truck rolls = more $$$ for DirecTV ($45 a pop now?) or they can try to sucker folks into the PP and milk 'em for way more over the long term.


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Why? There is not much to change at the server. Most of what you need to change would be at the client.


What if you have custom router settings? Or need to change your wifi password? Just 2 settings that will probably be on the server off the top of my head. EDIT: Or OTA setup (since we know there's only a total of like 2 DirecTV employees that even know what OTA is)... or you move and have a zip-code change? Every little thing will require a truck roll.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> What if you have custom router settings? Or need to change your wifi password? Just 2 settings that will probably be on the server off the top of my head. EDIT: Or OTA setup (since we know there's only a total of like 2 DirecTV employees that even know what OTA is)... or you move and have a zip-code change? Every little thing will require a truck roll.


Every customer facing setting would be available via clients. DIRECTV is not going to roll a truck just to change the password. Whether this client is a TV client on your DIRECTV app, is yet to be determined.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> What if you have custom router settings? Or need to change your wifi password? Just 2 settings that will probably be on the server off the top of my head. EDIT: Or OTA setup (since we know there's only a total of like 2 DirecTV employees that even know what OTA is)... or you move and have a zip-code change? Every little thing will require a truck roll.


When have you had to change the zip code in your DIRECTV receiver?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

I agree. I expect some sort of set up through the client There is no way they are going to limit this to professional installs only when they can sell them through retail channels also for 299 or whatever a pop. The setup could even be through the app similar to how you connect directly to set up a ring doorbell or a nest cam. Connect directly to the wifi on the box But I am defiantly expecting that you will plug this in. Connect a client and then have all options available


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> When have you had to change the zip code in your DIRECTV receiver?


Me personally? Never. I've been in my house since 2002. Last year I was thinking about moving to a bigger place, so that would have been a zip code change. There are people who move a lot more often though. I know one guy who moves around every 3 to 5 yrs usually.


----------



## SledgeHammer

compnurd said:


> I agree. I expect some sort of set up through the client There is no way they are going to limit this to professional installs only when they can sell them through retail channels also for 299 or whatever a pop. The setup could even be through the app similar to how you connect directly to set up a ring doorbell or a nest cam. Connect directly to the wifi on the box But I am defiantly expecting that you will plug this in. Connect a client and then have all options available


Why not? 4K is limited to pro install. HR2x -> Genie upgrade is limited to a pro install. In a lot of cases an upgrade is going to require a dish and/or lnb and/or wiring change.

10 yrs ago you could call up DirecTV tech support and get help with your wiring... not anymore. They don't want to pay or support that.

Is DirecTV even sold through retail anymore? I know some stores have DirecTV sales in store, but you just give 'em your credit card and they set up an install, they don't stock equipment in stores. Again, 10+ yrs ago, you used to be able to buy stuff in the stores. You even had a choice of equipment!


----------



## Bigg

dengland said:


> I have an uncommon setup I would expect. In my den I am controlling an HR22 with a Crestron control system (RS232 -> USB in the HR22). Those days are coming to an end....


IP control. That's how Crestron controls TiVos and many other devices. IP control is the future, as it can scale with the same interface from a $50k Crestron system to a $20 app you put on your phone, and they can use the same commands over IP.



SledgeHammer said:


> 2) More truck rolls = more $$$ for DirecTV ($45 a pop now?) or they can try to sucker folks into the PP and milk 'em for way more over the long term.


They're not making money if they're charging $45/truck roll. The average truck roll cost just to get someone to walk in the door, whether it is DirecTV, an appliance, a plumber, whatever, is $150.



compnurd said:


> I agree. I expect some sort of set up through the client


Yeah, the settings will be on screen through the client. If you need to re-set up for some reason with the same dish, you'd probably have to hard wire a client to the server with coax, maybe some sort of web interface through Ethernet before doing Wi-Fi. Once it's connected, DirecTV can access it over the internet (although it has to function without Ethernet if someone doesn't have a home network).


----------



## compnurd

SledgeHammer said:


> Why not? 4K is limited to pro install. HR2x -> Genie upgrade is limited to a pro install. In a lot of cases an upgrade is going to require a dish and/or lnb and/or wiring change.
> 
> 10 yrs ago you could call up DirecTV tech support and get help with your wiring... not anymore. They don't want to pay or support that.
> 
> Is DirecTV even sold through retail anymore? I know some stores have DirecTV sales in store, but you just give 'em your credit card and they set up an install, they don't stock equipment in stores. Again, 10+ yrs ago, you used to be able to buy stuff in the stores. You even had a choice of equipment!


4k is not limited to pro unless you buy from them. I can buy a c61k right now from Amazon and call to get set up I can buy an entire system from weakness install myself and activate.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bigg said:


> They're not making money if they're charging $45/truck roll. The average truck roll cost just to get someone to walk in the door, whether it is DirecTV, an appliance, a plumber, whatever, is $150.


In my area (mid sized city) its more like $75 or less.

Comparing a plumber to a DirecTV installer is like comparing an apple to a pigeon.

Plumbers have to work hard for their leads and they have to carry a lot of parts on their trucks from different brands and have to know how to work on a lot of different stuff and have to be licensed. Remember, a plumber almost NEVER gets repeat business.

A DirecTV truck has to carry a ladder, a few satellite dishes and a few DVRs and some coax and a few assorted odds and ends for installation. They also don't have to be licensed, nor do they have to work for leads.

On a more complex install, yeah, they take a hit on the truck roll, but for a basic one where the guy is in and out in an hour, probably not... having the customer is more valuable to them.


----------



## SledgeHammer

compnurd said:


> 4k is not limited to pro unless you buy from them. I can buy a c61k right now from Amazon and call to get set up I can buy an entire system from weakness install myself and activate.


Have you tried? According to this link, you can't whether you buy from DirecTV or out of the trunk of a rusty buick in a dark alley:

How to activate 4k without a truck roll?

Unless of course the policy has changed recently .

Also, from DirecTVs web site:

1. Limited titles available. Requires a Genie HD DVR (model HR54 or later) and a DIRECTV 4K Ready TV, or a 4K TV connected to a 4K Genie Mini. Additional fees apply. SELECT Package or higher required for 4K channels. Two-room setup recommended. Additional and Advanced Receiver fees apply. *Professional installation required*. 2. Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 available when provided by programmer. Additional equipment required, sold separately. 3. There is a fee of $7/mo. for each receiver and/or Genie Mini /DIRECTV Ready TV/Device on your account. In the event the DIRECTV 4K Ready TV is the only television connected to DIRECTV service, there will be an additional charge of $7/mo. Advanced Receiver Service fee also applies. *Professional installation and 4K account authorization are required*


----------



## compnurd

Yes. I purchased my C61k from Amazon and activated a 4K rvu tv over the phone with them I have also had them direct ship me a HR54 to replace my 44. The above statement was listed when I activated my C61k


----------



## SledgeHammer

compnurd said:


> Yes. I purchased my C61k from Amazon and activated a 4K rvu tv over the phone with them I have also had them direct ship me a HR54 to replace my 44. The above statement was listed when I activated my C61k


Weird, when I tried to get a Genie out of them a few times they told me a truck roll was required. Are you also going to self install your reverse band LNB? I'm not climbing up a ladder 25 - 30ft to save a truck roll LOL.


----------



## CuttySnark

SledgeHammer said:


> In my area (mid sized city) its more like $75 or less.
> 
> Comparing a plumber to a DirecTV installer is like comparing an apple to a pigeon.
> 
> Plumbers have to work hard for their leads and they have to carry a lot of parts on their trucks from different brands and have to know how to work on a lot of different stuff and have to be licensed. Remember, a plumber almost NEVER gets repeat business.
> 
> A DirecTV truck has to carry a ladder, a few satellite dishes and a few DVRs and some coax and a few assorted odds and ends for installation. They also don't have to be licensed, nor do they have to work for leads.
> 
> On a more complex install, yeah, they take a hit on the truck roll, but for a basic one where the guy is in and out in an hour, probably not... having the customer is more valuable to them.


D* loses money sending techs out. I forgot the exact number but it costs over $100 per truckroll. At least that's how it was a couple of years ago when I worked for them.


----------



## compnurd

SledgeHammer said:


> Weird, when I tried to get a Genie out of them a few times they told me a truck roll was required. Are you also going to self install your reverse band LNB? I'm not climbing up a ladder 25 - 30ft to save a truck roll LOL.


Already did that


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> The funny thing is that it treats the HR54 like an HS17 - it says you aren't supposed to hook up the HR54 to a TV, and apparently not any other clients, only the C61K(!) For every 4K TV, you'd need another HR54/C61K pair at $268. Man what a cluster* that solution is, if I wanted to upgrade all my TVs to 4K I'd need to engineer quite the messy setup to support over a dozen SWM16s, not to mention finding room for all those useless HR54s!


1. They could probably disable all but 1/2 tuners in the HR54 in that application, allowing them to run off of a smaller SWiM.

2. The commercial installations that use them will likely have one or two 4k TVs, and the rest HD.

3. Commercial 4k is a super duper niche, at least for now, as there is little content, and even if there was, at the size and distance you've got in a bar, you just don't need 4k.



SledgeHammer said:


> In my area (mid sized city) its more like $75 or less.


I'd be shocked if anyone could send a truck out for $75 average to do anything. The overhead, cost of the truck, insurance, etc, etc, is high no matter what the business or profession is. I've seen the $150 numbers referenced for telcos and cable companies, which are arguably easier to install than satellite TV.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bigg said:


> I'd be shocked if anyone could send a truck out for $75 average to do anything. The overhead, cost of the truck, insurance, etc, etc, is high no matter what the business or profession is. I've seen the $150 numbers referenced for telcos and cable companies, which are arguably easier to install than satellite TV.


I've had appliance repair and plumbers out and generally the deal in my area is "I'll come to your house for free and give you a free estimate, but if you don't like the estimate, you pay $75 for the house call... if you take my offer, you just pay the bill".

I get they do that so people don't waste their time, but some of the shadier outfits give ridiculous pricing so you'll just pay the $75. Or they do that when they don't want to do the job because its too big, too small, not worth the hassle, etc.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> In my area (mid sized city) its more like $75 or less.
> 
> Comparing a plumber to a DirecTV installer is like comparing an apple to a pigeon.
> 
> Plumbers have to work hard for their leads and they have to carry a lot of parts on their trucks from different brands and have to know how to work on a lot of different stuff and have to be licensed. Remember, a plumber almost NEVER gets repeat business.
> 
> A DirecTV truck has to carry a ladder, a few satellite dishes and a few DVRs and some coax and a few assorted odds and ends for installation. They also don't have to be licensed, nor do they have to work for leads.
> 
> On a more complex install, yeah, they take a hit on the truck roll, but for a basic one where the guy is in and out in an hour, probably not... having the customer is more valuable to them.


The tech _may_ not loose money, the company does however. Let's see, the tech gets paid (average) $15 an hour, changes an LNB (let's say $20) add some gas plus overhead, and $49 actually seems like a loosing proposition for DIRECTV.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Me personally? Never. I've been in my house since 2002. Last year I was thinking about moving to a bigger place, so that would have been a zip code change. There are people who move a lot more often though. I know one guy who moves around every 3 to 5 yrs usually.


You change the zip code on your account (by calling DIRECTV), not on the receiver.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Have you tried? According to this link, you can't whether you buy from DirecTV or out of the trunk of a rusty buick in a dark alley:
> 
> How to activate 4k without a truck roll?
> 
> Unless of course the policy has changed recently .
> 
> Also, from DirecTVs web site:
> 
> 1. Limited titles available. Requires a Genie HD DVR (model HR54 or later) and a DIRECTV 4K Ready TV, or a 4K TV connected to a 4K Genie Mini. Additional fees apply. SELECT Package or higher required for 4K channels. Two-room setup recommended. Additional and Advanced Receiver fees apply. *Professional installation required*. 2. Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 available when provided by programmer. Additional equipment required, sold separately. 3. There is a fee of $7/mo. for each receiver and/or Genie Mini /DIRECTV Ready TV/Device on your account. In the event the DIRECTV 4K Ready TV is the only television connected to DIRECTV service, there will be an additional charge of $7/mo. Advanced Receiver Service fee also applies. *Professional installation and 4K account authorization are required*


Of course, that post is incorrect. Had the TV been activated correctly (as a 4K sku) 4K would of ave shown automatically. and all of this can be done without a tech.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Weird, when I tried to get a Genie out of them a few times they told me a truck roll was required. Are you also going to self install your reverse band LNB? *I'm not climbing up a ladder 25 - 30ft to save a truck roll LOL.*


That is clearly your choice


----------



## peds48

CuttySnark said:


> D* loses money sending techs out. I forgot the exact number but it costs over $100 per truckroll. At least that's how it was a couple of years ago when I worked for them.


That sounds bout right.


----------



## James Long

SledgeHammer said:


> I've had appliance repair and plumbers out and generally the deal in my area is "I'll come to your house for free and give you a free estimate, but if you don't like the estimate, you pay $75 for the house call... if you take my offer, you just pay the bill".
> 
> I get they do that so people don't waste their time, but some of the shadier outfits give ridiculous pricing so you'll just pay the $75. Or they do that when they don't want to do the job because its too big, too small, not worth the hassle, etc.


I believe you are confusing charge to the customer with cost to the company. How much a plumber charges to drive to a location, take a quick look and give an estimate is not what it cost them for gas and their time. And if that estimate converts into actually doing the project the cost of the trip is still there whether or not it is shown on a bill.

Hopefully the HS-17 will have some interface that can be accessed locally or via satellite. The initial setup before the receiver is connected to the satellite network would require some local connection. Beyond that, why not send programming information via satellite? They do it all the time for authorization information. If someone moves every 3-5 years they will need a truck roll for the professional installation of their equipment at the new site. If someone is doing self installs ATT|DIRECTV may want to verify equipment location and whether the equipment is installed correctly.

There is no proof that a truck roll would be required for subsequent post-installation changes to the HS-17. Perhaps people are worrying for no reason?


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> The tech _may_ not loose money, the company does however. Let's see, the tech gets paid (average) $15 an hour, changes an LNB (let's say $20) add some gas plus overhead, and $49 actually seems like a loosing proposition for DIRECTV.


So the tech gets paid $15/hr no matter what he does. Do techs have to pay for gas, parts, tools, uniforms, overhead, etc?

Whether the tech pays for that stuff or the company pays for that stuff, its written off as a business expense by MULTIPLE parties (the tech, the local tech company AND DirecTV). So yeah, maybe it "costs" "$100" to send a tech out, but before its all written off in various ways.

If it really costs $100 after all the smoke & mirrors and accounting magic, I'd be really, really surprised.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> So the tech gets paid $15/hr no matter what he does. Do techs have to pay for gas, parts, tools, uniforms, overhead, etc?
> 
> Whether the tech pays for that stuff or the company pays for that stuff, its written off as a business expense by MULTIPLE parties (the tech, the local tech company AND DirecTV). So yeah, maybe it "costs" "$100" to send a tech out, but before its all written off in various ways.
> 
> If it really costs $100 after all the smoke & mirrors and accounting magic, I'd be really, really surprised.


Again, you are confusing who is paying for the service call, we are referring to DIRECTV loosing by charging the customer $49.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> Hopefully the HS-17 will have some interface that can be accessed locally or via satellite. The initial setup before the receiver is connected to the satellite network would require some local connection. Beyond that, why not send programming information via satellite? They do it all the time for authorization information. If someone moves every 3-5 years they will need a truck roll for the professional installation of their equipment at the new site. If someone is doing self installs ATT|DIRECTV may want to verify equipment location and whether the equipment is installed correctly.
> 
> There is no proof that a truck roll would be required for subsequent post-installation changes to the HS-17. Perhaps people are worrying for no reason?


We know it has no TV output based on the documentation Rokstar provided. Didn't one of the docs say the "interface" was on a tech tool or a tech only phone app or something like that?


----------



## James Long

Written off may help on their taxes, but business expenses are still costs.

As for the interface ... I have never programmed a HS17 (and neither have you) ... but I have dealt with a lot of "factory default" settings that required a local serial or USB connection or using preconfigured default Wi-Fi or Ethernet settings to talk to the equipment when it was first installed. But after initial installation one could reconfigure the equipment easily without needing to use the "factory default" settings.


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> Again, you are confusing who is paying for the service call, we are referring to DIRECTV loosing by charging the customer $49.


I was as well, except I didn't think they are losing $$$ on the deal or they would be a lot more strict with the CSRs who hand out truck rolls like candy.

Do the techs get paid by the job, or do they also get paid for travel time? If I was a tech and I didn't get paid for when I was driving job to job and had to pay gas on top of that, I'd find another career in a hurry.


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> I was as well, except I didn't think they are losing $$$ on the deal or they would be a lot more strict with the CSRs who hand out truck rolls like candy.
> 
> .


Repeat calls are not paid by DIRECTV, if is O&O DIRECTV pays the employees, they loose. If is HSP, they pay their employees, DIRECTV "wins" if is a sub, the HSP back charges the sub and the sub company may or may not pay the tech.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> 1. They could probably disable all but 1/2 tuners in the HR54 in that application, allowing them to run off of a smaller SWiM.
> 
> 2. The commercial installations that use them will likely have one or two 4k TVs, and the rest HD.
> 
> 3. Commercial 4k is a super duper niche, at least for now, as there is little content, and even if there was, at the size and distance you've got in a bar, you just don't need 4k.


The white paper says it requires 5 tuners and eventually 7, and recommends dedicating half of a SWM16 to the HR54.

While I agree it is niche, based on my early experience with having some TVs HD and some TVs SD, the HD channels were almost 10 seconds behind the SD channels. Fortunately there was an easy fix in using HD receivers for all TVs, if you tried to use SD receivers on them the sound you're piping in would be off on either the HD TVs or the SD TVs, and the pictures would be out of sync.

The problem with 4K is that the C61K won't downscale 4K on a HDTV. Maybe a newer 4K client will, but if not, and if the 4K channels are not synchronized with the HD channels, a wholesale replacement of all TVs is the only realistic choice. There will have to be a lot of 4K channels and content, and show real benefit over HD beyond just resolution (which is hardly something sports bar viewers care about, if they are even close enough tell) before many places will consider that!


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> Do the techs get paid by the job, or do they also get paid for travel time? If I was a tech and I didn't get paid for when I was driving job to job and had to pay gas on top of that, I'd find another career in a hurry.


O&O gets hourly, don't pay for gas. HSP gets piece rate don't pay for gas. Sub gets piece rate (higher rate) but pays for gas. Unless you are O&O you don't get pay for travel time or you can say that travel time is part of your salary (piece rate)if you work for an HSP.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> Written off may help on their taxes, but business expenses are still costs.


Agreed, but it all depends on how their accounting magic works. If multiple parties write off various parts and some parts can be written off by multiple parties, its not as big of a loss as people are making it out to be. I don't know how it works on that part obviously... 

Companies have all sorts of ways to write stuff off. Back maybe 10 yrs ago, I worked for a well known tech company. They hired me as a 1099 contractor even though I had a permanent desk and they provided all equipment in the office. They did this because 1099 contractors appear as a business expense rather then an employee on your financials and they don't have to pay the employee portion of your taxes, so it looks better (even though its illegal). Then I got laid off, so I filed for unemployment and the unemployment people asked me routine questions about how everything was setup, and I guess it set off red flags and they got investigated and they had to send me a big fat check to pay me for the employee portion of the taxes I had paid.

Enron did accounting magic on the next level.



James Long said:


> As for the interface ... I have never programmed a HS17 (and neither have you) ... but I have dealt with a lot of "factory default" settings that required a local serial or USB connection or using preconfigured default Wi-Fi or Ethernet settings to talk to the equipment when it was first installed. But after initial installation one could reconfigure the equipment easily without needing to use the "factory default" settings.


Yup, I have not. If they make it a web interface, that's one thing... if they require special cables or devices, that's another.


----------



## James Long

SledgeHammer said:


> They hired me as a 1099 contractor even though I had a permanent desk and they provided all equipment in the office.


I did 1099 work for about two weeks a decade ago. I was paid $14 per hour and the company billed my work at $45 per hour. I didn't like the markup. It was a second job at the time working for a vendor who was being paid by my full time employer. It was cheaper for them to pay me overtime than to pay the vendor but the company president didn't want to pay me overtime ... so he paid the vendor more than it would have cost paying me directly - I was paid less than I would have got being paid directly. Everyone lost except the vendor who made a clean $31 per hour for my work. Or dirty $31 if one has ethics.

That particular 1099 job was legal (I wasn't forced to work only for that company) but the full time company I worked for did eventually try to illegally convert me to being a 1099 employee. Once their lawyer found out what I was being offered the offer changed to something more legal.



SledgeHammer said:


> Yup, I have not. If they make it a web interface, that's one thing... if they require special cables or devices, that's another.


I am more confident that once the HS17 is past initial setup that changes will be able to be made without a truck roll as long as the HS17 is connected to a network. Defining a network as being either the satellite network or a client connected via coax. If the Wi-Fi is still working I expect a wireless client will be able to make changes.


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> I did 1099 work for about two weeks a decade ago. I was paid $14 per hour and the company billed my work at $45 per hour. I didn't like the markup.


Hmm... I'm a software engineer, so in my industry, 1099 is you are fully independent and your own employer and W-2 is when you go through an agency. 1099 you have to pay quarterly taxes and you pay the employer portion as well. W-2 the agency pays the employer portion and you only have to file in April. Typically you get 1.5x FTE rate for W-2 and 2x for 1099.

A lot of companies will hire you as a W-2 so they don't have to give you benefits or a severance package and if they really like you they'll convert you to FTE. Typically these companies hire you as a W-2, but give you the FTE hourly rate and then expect you to take a pay cut when you convert because suddenly you are getting benefits.


----------



## Bigg

SledgeHammer said:


> I've had appliance repair and plumbers out and generally the deal in my area is "I'll come to your house for free and give you a free estimate, but if you don't like the estimate, you pay $75 for the house call... if you take my offer, you just pay the bill".


That's sort of sketchy in general, but assuming they are honest about the whole thing, then it still may cost them more to come out and bid a job. They also often don't send the truck with all the stuff on it out, but it's still not free for their time and whatever vehicle they are driving.



James Long said:


> Beyond that, why not send programming information via satellite? They do it all the time for authorization information.


That would be a massive kludge. Over the internet would make more sense. With DHCP, you can just plug it into a router, and it should be able to get online, further settings can be pushed down from the mothership over the internet. Not sure what they would do for the rare installation that doesn't have a home network present.



slice1900 said:


> The white paper says it requires 5 tuners and eventually 7, and recommends dedicating half of a SWM16 to the HR54.


YIKES! That it a total kludge then!



> While I agree it is niche, based on my early experience with having some TVs HD and some TVs SD, the HD channels were almost 10 seconds behind the SD channels.


Yup. I've seen this many times in places. Many places still use some SD boxes. Tfhe distribution wiring is probably just easier.



> The problem with 4K is that the C61K won't downscale 4K on a HDTV. Maybe a newer 4K client will, but if not, and if the 4K channels are not synchronized with the HD channels, a wholesale replacement of all TVs is the only realistic choice. There will have to be a lot of 4K channels and content, and show real benefit over HD beyond just resolution (which is hardly something sports bar viewers care about, if they are even close enough tell) before many places will consider that!


I'm not convinced that there will be a sync issue with HEVC encoding vs. H.264 for HD channels. I think if there is something like 4k ESPN, a few of the big chain places might put 4k in just for the cool factor, but I'd imagine most independent places are fine with HD. The real benefit in a sports bar is near zero.


----------



## James Long

James Long said:


> Beyond that, why not send programming information via satellite? They do it all the time for authorization information.





Bigg said:


> That would be a massive kludge. Over the internet would make more sense. With DHCP, you can just plug it into a router, and it should be able to get online, further settings can be pushed down from the mothership over the internet. Not sure what they would do for the rare installation that doesn't have a home network present.


How much needs to be set up on a headless server? It needs to be able to find the satellites and have the home network setup (Wi-Fi settings for wireless clients) but I would not expect the setup information to be too much to send one way via satellite if for some reason the home network got hosed. This is assuming that any HS17 settings cannot be changed via a connected client (for example, if something happened that prevented clients from connecting a reset could be sent via satellite - similar to the rehits sent to current receivers).

My guess is that the special app will be needed for initial installation then any subsequent changes will be made through connected clients with the potential to reset via satellite. I would not rule out a web interface but I am not expecting the HS17 to have settings that will need adjusting post install. At least not often enough to worry about.


----------



## slice1900

I'm trying to think of exactly what would need to be set up with a brand new out of the box HS17 and wired client on an already working system. Assuming the "access card" ID is printed on the SIM, or on something the SIM comes with, activation wouldn't require accessing the HS17. If you already have a dish, SWM etc. it should be simple plug and play. With a wired client you wouldn't need to worry about wireless.

Really the only thing I could think of is introducing/marrying the client and HS17 to each other. I don't know exactly how that currently works, but it obviously could be done without needing access to the server even if that isn't how it works today. My concern may turn out to be a non-problem, and self-install not an issue (note I'm talking about self-install in a commercial environment, they may not allow that for home but things work differently for commercial accounts) But I hope we can get more info about the process - maybe next month when the two test markets get going.

I kind of like James' idea about internet setup - you could make changes on a web site, and they'd be sent to your HS17 over the satellite just like when you send a 'hit' or an activation/deactivation signal. The problem from my end is that Directv's support for commercial accounts on their web site is abysmal. I can't even look at my bill online! But seems like it would be much easier to just add a bit of extra stuff to their iOS and Android apps...


----------



## RAD

Assuming that DIRECTV would require a truck roll to install I'd guess that since the HS17 has a built in WVB that somehow they'd have the techs hand held device be able to access the HS17 so they can see what's happening without having a working mini client.


----------



## Bigg

James Long said:


> This is assuming that any HS17 settings cannot be changed via a connected client (for example, if something happened that prevented clients from connecting a reset could be sent via satellite - similar to the rehits sent to current receivers).


I'd guess it would be done via a connected client, or through a web/LAN interface.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> I'm trying to think of exactly what would need to be set up with a brand new out of the box HS17 and wired client on an already working system. Assuming the "access card" ID is printed on the SIM, or on something the SIM comes with, activation wouldn't require accessing the HS17. If you already have a dish, SWM etc. it should be simple plug and play. With a wired client you wouldn't need to worry about wireless.
> 
> ..


One of the things you need access to the H17 when installing for the first time is the satellite settings, while SWM LNBs are auto detected and configured the same can't be said about SWM switches as it would be the case with an international install and whatever switch DIRECTV comes up with, like the SWM30 standalone module. Also clients pairings are done via the Genie GUI today and I don't expect that to change. Perhaps this would one of the few scenarios where a truck roll would be required when it was something that could be done today by a customer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

The client doesn't depend on the server having working satellite does it? If the HS17 detects wrong, couldn't you fix the satellite setup via the client? Or are the clients completely non-functional until the server is activated? Even if it detected wrong, so long as it could see 101 it could receive activation signals, and then you can hopefully fix the satellite setup (to add international dish or whatever) later.

If you have a client paired to a HR44/HR54, and want to pair a second client, does that require the Genie GUI? Or is that something that could be done from a client GUI in a pinch? It would be a giant pain if I had to call Directv every time I wanted to pair a client - even just something seemingly simple like moving a client from one HS17 to another (i.e. if one HS17 had issues, or I was just testing something) Hopefully that's not the case!


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> I kind of like James' idea about internet setup - you could make changes on a web site, and they'd be sent to your HS17 over the satellite just like when you send a 'hit' or an activation/deactivation signal.


A LOCAL web server interface is one thing, but doing it on DirecTV.com? You really want DirecTV to have your wifi / network password? My Linksys router has an option to do a local http config or a web based config... I can't imagine why anybody would want to put their router settings on the internet.

Don't assume DirecTV knows how to protect sensitive information when even the big boys of the web like Yahoo and Amazon can't do it.

If I was a hacker, DirecTV and its 21 million user database full of oodles of LAN info AND credit card info sounds like a really juicy target to me.


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> One of the things you need access to the H17 when installing for the first time is the satellite settings, while SWM LNBs are auto detected and configured the same can't be said about SWM switches as it would be the case with an international install and whatever switch DIRECTV comes up with, like the SWM30 standalone module. Also clients pairings are done via the Genie GUI today and I don't expect that to change. Perhaps this would one of the few scenarios where a truck roll would be required when it was something that could be done today by a customer.


How would you set up OTA? Even a truck roll won't help you there since according to Dbstalk, most people who have techs over look at the AM21 and ask what it is.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> The client doesn't depend on the server having working satellite does it? If the HS17 detects wrong, couldn't you fix the satellite setup via the client? Or are the clients completely non-functional until the server is activated? Even if it detected wrong, so long as it could see 101 it could receive activation signals, and then you can hopefully fix the satellite setup (to add international dish or whatever) later.
> 
> If you have a client paired to a HR44/HR54, and want to pair a second client, does that require the Genie GUI? Or is that something that could be done from a client GUI in a pinch? It would be a giant pain if I had to call Directv every time I wanted to pair a client - even just something seemingly simple like moving a client from one HS17 to another (i.e. if one HS17 had issues, or I was just testing something) Hopefully that's not the case!


Now you're finally starting to get why a headless server is a REALLY dumb idea .

You and the rest of us are mostly techies and can handle config via a local (or remote) web interface. What about your parents or grandparents? Or what about non-techy people in general? Most people wouldn't know how to http into the HS17 any more then they would know how to gap spark plugs in a '69 Camaro.

CSRs can't even walk you through programming a remote anymore... how are they going to walk you through this?

If you are still concerned about the whole HDMI output is fluid thing... well, time to move the HDMI circuits to a field or tech replaceable daughterboard perhaps? Or just suck it up and release a HS18 for people who want the new features.

Even as a last resort, release a HDMI 2.0b HS17 that can output 4K directly to a TV with the internal decision to not release a new server for every little HDMI change, but rather wait til HDMI 17.8q for the next server or whatever.


----------



## RAD

SledgeHammer said:


> How would you set up OTA? Even a truck roll won't help you there since according to Dbstalk, most people who have techs over look at the AM21 and ask what it is.


Based on the lack of OTA support on their current receivers I'd guess that this new platform might not even support the AM21. And since there's no hint of any new OTA adapter coming I'm guessing that OTA might be dean on the HS17.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> The client doesn't depend on the server having working satellite does it? If the HS17 detects wrong, couldn't you fix the satellite setup via the client? Or are the clients completely non-functional until the server is activated? Even if it detected wrong, so long as it could see 101 it could receive activation signals, and then you can hopefully fix the satellite setup (to add international dish or whatever) later.
> 
> If you have a client paired to a HR44/HR54, and want to pair a second client, does that require the Genie GUI? Or is that something that could be done from a client GUI in a pinch? It would be a giant pain if I had to call Directv every time I wanted to pair a client - even just something seemingly simple like moving a client from one HS17 to another (i.e. if one HS17 had issues, or I was just testing something) Hopefully that's not the case!


If H17 follows the current Genie GUI, the clients are non functional until the server is activated. Same goes with adding a client, it must be done via the Genie GUI, currently.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> A LOCAL web server interface is one thing, but doing it on DirecTV.com? You really want DirecTV to have your wifi / network password?


Don't think DIRECTV would need your wifi password to access the H17 remotely if that were to be case. The current DIRECTV app can access your Genie currently without DIRECTV requiring to surrender your wifi password.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

SledgeHammer said:


> You really want DirecTV to have your wifi / network password?


It does not have to be stored in the cloud. AT&T|DIRECTV would not need to have the password ... they would just need to pass it through (assuming that setting a password became an Internet enabled function).

At this point it sounds like you're getting bent out of shape over something that isn't proposed by AT&T|DIRECTV. The furthest my suggestion would go would be a reset ... enough to get into the unit via a connected client if for some reason the client-server connection was locked up and needed reset from the server side.

Initial setup comes with the system installation and a truck roll. Subsequent changes are what some are worried about ... and going back to my question of what changes need to be made on the server after installation "adding a client" seems to be a valid system change. Currently that is done from the Genie. Why not do that via another connected client or a web app? Some option will need to be added to allow clients to be added or replaced post install - where that option is added is up to AT&T|DIRECTV.

If the HS17 is using Wi-Fi for its only Internet connection there would need to be some way to change the password when the home password changes. But that too could be added to a connected client. No smartphone or other device required.

(And for the rare initial self install I suspect AT&T|DIRECTV will work something out. The sky is not falling.)


----------



## peds48

DIRECTV can't implement a setting that relies on an internet connection for everybody. So their only option of post install must rely on a local network, and without the need of a router. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dod1450

compnurd said:


> Yes. I purchased my C61k from Amazon and activated a 4K rvu tv over the phone with them I have also had them direct ship me a HR54 to replace my 44. The above statement was listed when I activated my C61k


 You are lucky on not having a truck roll.


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> At this point it sounds like you're getting bent out of shape over something that isn't proposed by AT&T|DIRECTV. The furthest my suggestion would go would be a reset ... enough to get into the unit via a connected client if for some reason the client-server connection was locked up and needed reset from the server side.
> 
> Initial setup comes with the system installation and a truck roll. Subsequent changes are what some are worried about ... and going back to my question of what changes need to be made on the server after installation "adding a client" seems to be a valid system change. Currently that is done from the Genie. Why not do that via another connected client or a web app? Some option will need to be added to allow clients to be added or replaced post install - where that option is added is up to AT&T|DIRECTV.
> 
> If the HS17 is using Wi-Fi for its only Internet connection there would need to be some way to change the password when the home password changes. But that too could be added to a connected client. No smartphone or other device required.
> 
> (And for the rare initial self install I suspect AT&T|DIRECTV will work something out. The sky is not falling.)


Not getting bent out of shape lol... just saying... this has no video output, so there's only a few choices:

1) change server settings through client (what if the client can't connect for whatever reason?)
2) change server settings through web (you don't want some settings out on the internet)
3) change server settings through local http (this is fine I guess, but non-techies will have an issue or what if you don't have a PC?)
4) change server settings through smart phone app (a workaround for #3 I guess)
5) change server settings through truck roll (bad)

At the end of the day, nobody has come up with a valid reason for this being headless other then "the 4K standard is still fluid". Yes, its a valid argument to decouple the server from the video, but being manageable in the field for the general population is another huge argument.

Besides, its not like you need to update the HDMI chip every week. Releasing an updated server every 2 - 3 yrs would work as well and they pretty much do that anyways.


----------



## compnurd

dod1450 said:


> You are lucky on not having a truck roll.


 not sure how. I can also buy one from solid signal. Call them and have it activated


----------



## Bigg

peds48 said:


> Don't think DIRECTV would need your wifi password to access the H17 remotely if that were to be case. The current DIRECTV app can access your Genie currently without DIRECTV requiring to surrender your wifi password.


You guys need tinfoil hats! I mean really, this is ridiculous. Probably half of these things are going to end up in houses with AT&T internet service where AT&T manages the router anyway. And for people with Comcastic routers, do you guys trust them any more than AT&T to have your Wi-Fi password cloud configurable? I refuse to rent their routers because I don't want to pay $10/mo, and I want control, but I really don't care if they had my Wi-Fi password. If you're that paranoid about it, the thing does have an Ethernet jack, so you could use that instead.



peds48 said:


> DIRECTV can't implement a setting that relies on an internet connection for everybody. So their only option of post install must rely on a local network, and without the need of a router.


What if it had an internal LTE radio? It probably doesn't, but it's fun speculation. They could make it act as the DHCP server if it's not connected to another network, so you could plug a laptop in via Ethernet. That's basically how routers and modems are configured today, so it's not the end of the world. It would be useful for someone's kids/grandkids/neighbor/whomever to help them configure the thing, but people who don't even have a home network aren't going to be able to understand how to change any settings on this thing.


----------



## NR4P

I wonder why people are concerned about passwords if the HS17 is a box with Wi-FI for internet from the home router. The HR44 and HR54 are boxes with Wi-Fi and if the HS17 follows that route, what's the issue?


----------



## compnurd

idk.. we shall find out in a few weeks here is looks like


----------



## RAD

SledgeHammer said:


> Not getting bent out of shape lol... just saying... this has no video output, so there's only a few choices:
> 
> 1) change server settings through client (what if the client can't connect for whatever reason?)
> 2) change server settings through web (you don't want some settings out on the internet)
> 3) change server settings through local http (this is fine I guess, but non-techies will have an issue or what if you don't have a PC?)
> 4) change server settings through smart phone app (a workaround for #3 I guess)
> 5) change server settings through truck roll (bad)
> 
> At the end of the day, nobody has come up with a valid reason for this being headless other then "the 4K standard is still fluid". Yes, its a valid argument to decouple the server from the video, but being manageable in the field for the general population is another huge argument.
> 
> Besides, its not like you need to update the HDMI chip every week. Releasing an updated server every 2 - 3 yrs would work as well and they pretty much do that anyways.


You forgot one, that DIRECTV back end systems have the MAC addresses of all clients on the account and is pushed out to the HS17 via the sat signal. Plus if they require a digital SWiM LNB and no external switches then the HS17 could auto detect the LNB so no inputting to the HS17 would be necessary. I've been saying since the Genie has come out that they need a better accounting system for the clients so maybe they're finally gong to implement full client tracking?


----------



## inkahauts

So a few things...

When the HR20 came out originally it had issues. A lot where firmware but they also discovered a lot of installs that where fine with SD stuff didn't cut it for the Hi Definition installs anymore. So they started requireing more truck rolls and redoing wiring. This cut down on calls to csrs and re rolling trucks after installs. 

Add in that many people upgrading to genies must have truck rolls to install swim systems or bump to swim16s. So if the equipment in the system detects you don't meet certain things it requires a truck roll. 

Same with RB lnbs on 4k installs I believe. I wouldn't be surprised if any new equipment required that swap so people will be required to have truck rolls not just drop ships. This makes perfect sense for everyone. 

Same with wireless. Since you have to add a splitter usually for wireless clients they must require truck rolls. It's not a swap. I get it and again this makes sense. 

A truck roll to get you going with a new generation or type of equipment is logical. Drop ships are for replacements imho. 

This means less calls to csrs and less truck rolls to unhappy customers that couldn't upgrade themselves easily. 

DIRECTV does not make money on truck rolls. It's the reason they require commitments imho as much as giving away boxes. Truck rolls cost a lot, when you add in all the expensive of the warehouses and stock and so forth. 

Seems people may be way over thinking how important it could be to access any server directly via a web page. Name one DIRECTV piece of equipment that customers are told how to do that with? None. I don't see that changing myself. There's no reason to ether.


I'm curios, does anyone know if they will drop ship you a wireless client if you already have a wireless client in your system and you are simply adding another one? That would seem to me to be the easiest drop ship for anew location install thy could make. Yet still could end up needing a truck roll if the location was to far from the bridge.


----------



## Bigg

Unfortunately, they are saving stupid people from themselves. And yes, DirecTV is a bit more complicated than cable (although with DVRs with built-in modems, MoCa, and Triple Play packages cable isn't exactly simple anymore either). However, with Comcast, for example, if you have an active drop on the side of the house, you can do all the rest of the wiring yourself and SIK all the equipment. You'd think DirecTV would at least offer the option for people who are capable of doing this stuff themselves.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Seems people may be way over thinking how important it could be to access any server directly via a web page. Name one DIRECTV piece of equipment that customers are told how to do that with? None. I don't see that changing myself. There's no reason to ether.


There has never been a reason for a web interface before since you have a UI. Now that you don't have a UI anymore, you might need a way to access things.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> What if it had an internal LTE radio? It probably doesn't, but it's fun speculation.


We know for a fact it doesn't; the FCC filings would reveal that if it did.


----------



## compnurd

SledgeHammer said:


> There has never been a reason for a web interface before since you have a UI. Now that you don't have a UI anymore, you might need a way to access things.


That is what the app is for


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> We know for a fact it doesn't; the FCC filings would reveal that if it did.


I think he was being sarcastic


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> We know for a fact it doesn't; the FCC filings would reveal that if it did.


Good point. I didn't think of that.



compnurd said:


> I think he was being sarcastic


I figured it was kind of a long shot idea, but it wasn't totally a joke because of the whole AT&T thing. The reality is that 95%+ of the people getting this have a home network to connect to through AT&T or Comcast or another ISP.


----------



## peds48

Bigg said:


> You guys need tinfoil hats!


Them guys, hahaha doesn't bother me a bit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

Bigg said:


> Good point. I didn't think of that.
> 
> I figured it was kind of a long shot idea, but it wasn't totally a joke because of the whole AT&T thing. The reality is that 95%+ of the people getting this have a home network to connect to through AT&T or Comcast or another ISP.


I would not say so, half of the Genies I see are not
Connected to the internet, and this is on the big city, most folks nowadays are fine with what they have in their pockets to access the internet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

compnurd said:


> That is what the app is for


App? what app? the DirecTV phone app? Does the HS17 have Bluetooth? If not, that would require that the HS17 is either on your LAN or connected to the internet. People on the forums are techies, but most people aren't. A lot of people don't have internet or a LAN, they just use their phones and wireless as Peds said.



peds48 said:


> I would not say so, half of the Genies I see are not
> Connected to the internet, and this is on the big city, most folks nowadays are fine with what they have in their pockets to access the internet.


My HR24 is connected to my LAN and my LAN is connected to the internet, but I specifically block the HR24 from doing anything on the internet because cloud search is super flakey and I want local search only.


----------



## James Long

SledgeHammer said:


> App? what app? the DirecTV phone app? Does the HS17 have Bluetooth? If not, that would require that the HS17 is either on your LAN or connected to the internet.


The "HS17 Installation App" (or whatever they call it) ... and no, it would not require the HS17 to be on the customer's home network. But it would require the device the app is on to be on the HS17's network. Just have the HS17 act as an access point for the device with the app.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> App? what app? the DirecTV phone app? Does the HS17 have Bluetooth? If not, that would require that the HS17 is either on your LAN or connected to the internet. People on the forums are techies, but most people aren't. A lot of people don't have internet or a LAN, they just use their phones and wireless as Peds said.


The non-techies aren't going to try to do a self-install of an HS17, so it doesn't have to be something so easy everyone can do it. It would just have to not require a proprietary app only installers have so those of us who know a little more than the average person have the ability to do so.

If it requires you plug ethernet into the HS17 so it can be on the same network as your phone, I don't think that's a problem - someone who can't even manage that needs to have an installer set it up for them.


----------



## compnurd

James Long said:


> The "HS17 Installation App" (or whatever they call it) ... and no, it would not require the HS17 to be on the customer's home network. But it would require the device the app is on to be on the HS17's network. Just have the HS17 act as an access point for the device with the app.


What he said. It doesn't need Bluetooth to connect to the app. The device can have an access point that you directly connect to with your phone when use the app to configure. The ring doorbell does this. You connect to the devices access point. Then go back into the app and configure the wifi settings and other of the device. From that point any changes could be done via the client. For all we know the directv app is ready to do this. If not could see some updates soon


----------



## CraigerM

Over at the other site Scott got some new info on the HS-17:

- 2tb hard drive
- 2 4k streams
- 7 clients, but at least 2 of them must be C61s for MoCA 2.0.
- Hardwiring from the customers router is preferred as this allows the hs17 to never require software downloads.
- You cannot have any stand alone receivers with a hs17. You either keep your system with h24/5s, HR24s, or HR44/54 and clients. It's all hs17 or nothing basically.


----------



## compnurd

Couple of new points there.. some of them we knew


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> - Hardwiring from the customers router is preferred as this allows the hs17 to never require software downloads.
> -


That makes no sense at all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

peds48 said:


> That makes no sense at all.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't get that either it has 802.11ac. That should give plenty of range right?


----------



## slice1900

Yeah none of that is new info other than a second confirmation of the "can't have any other boxes" rumor. I going to guess that means not sharing the same SWM - maybe they don't like mixing MoCA 2.0 and MoCA 1.1 devices. Be interesting to see how they enforce that for residential customers - if you get a HS17 will they take back everything else? Even for some of the people here who have oodles of DVRs and could easily swap a SWM16 for a SWM30 (when they come out) and keep them separated.

The "hardwiring from customer's router" thing probably refers to what ROK5TAR quoted in that installation sheet as the preferred location. The "never require software downloads" thing is obviously ridiculous, some info got corrupted as it passed from person to person along the way...


----------



## compnurd

I am thinking there is something off in the wording there...


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I didn't get that either it has 802.11ac. That should give plenty of range right?


The 802.11ac is for the HS17 to act as an access point to serve wireless clients like the C61W and future 4K wireless clients, not for it to receive wireless from your router. Maybe it will be able to connect to your router for internet via wireless also, but I wouldn't count on it. Since you can place it anywhere, they might require it to be connected via ethernet.

I sure hope they allow for a way to disable its wireless, there's no way I'm going to have multiple wifi transmitters sitting around I can't disable - though I guess I could open them up and cut the wires to the antennas if all else fails.


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> Yeah none of that is new info other than a second confirmation of the "can't have any other boxes" rumor. I going to guess that means not sharing the same SWM - maybe they don't like mixing MoCA 2.0 and MoCA 1.1 devices. Be interesting to see how they enforce that for residential customers - if you get a HS17 will they take back everything else? Even for some of the people here who have oodles of DVRs and could easily swap a SWM16 for a SWM30 (when they come out) and keep them separated.
> 
> The "hardwiring from customer's router" thing probably refers to what ROK5TAR quoted in that installation sheet as the preferred location. The "never require software downloads" thing is obviously ridiculous, some info got corrupted as it passed from person to person along the way...


We will need to see about the mixing of the Moca devices The Previous doc said up to 7 slot with a max of 5 being Moca 1.1.. not saying they could not have changed something.. It will be interesting because that means if someone upgrades and had 3-4 C31-C51 minis.. they need to change them all out to C61


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> The 802.11ac is for the HS17 to act as an access point, not for it to receive wireless from your router. Maybe it will be able to act as a wireless client to your router also, but I wouldn't count on it.
> 
> I sure hope they allow for a way to disable its wireless, there's no way I'm going to have multiple wifi transmitters sitting around I can't disable - though I guess I could open them up and cut the wires to the antennas if all else fails.


I would imagine it will be the same as the HR54 now.. If you hardwire it will disable wireless and you probably need to turn on the WVB to add a C61W


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> The 802.11ac is for the HS17 to act as an access point to serve wireless clients like the C61W and future 4K wireless clients, not for it to receive wireless from your router. Maybe it will be able to connect to your router for internet via wireless also, but I wouldn't count on it. Since you can place it anywhere, they might require it to be connected via ethernet.
> 
> I sure hope they allow for a way to disable its wireless, there's no way I'm going to have multiple wifi transmitters sitting around I can't disable - though I guess I could open them up and cut the wires to the antennas if all else fails.


How would you do DirecTV Cinema with the HS-17? What if the HS-17 on one side of the house and your Gateway is on the other side of the house? Or say the HS-17 is in the basement and the gateway is upstairs? That would be a long run for the Ethernet cable.


----------



## RAD

CraigerM said:


> How would you do DirecTV Cinema with the HS-17? What if the HS-17 on one side of the house and your Gateway is on the other side of the house? Or say the HS-17 is in the basement and the gateway is upstairs? That would be a long run for the Ethernet cable.


Or if coax is next to the gateway put a DECA-BB there to connect, no need for wireless.


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> How would you do DirecTV Cinema with the HS-17? What if the HS-17 on one side of the house and your Gateway is on the other side of the house? Or say the HS-17 is in the basement and the gateway is upstairs? That would be a long run for the Ethernet cable.


I think that is why they say in the instructions to install near the customers gateway and run a coax to it.. I am sure it still has wireless just in case.... But as we all know that is not as reliable


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> How would you do DirecTV Cinema with the HS-17? What if the HS-17 on one side of the house and your Gateway is on the other side of the house? Or say the HS-17 is in the basement and the gateway is upstairs? That would be a long run for the Ethernet cable.


If I do end up getting this thing which sounds like its going to be a huge PITA, I'd put it in a second floor bedroom. I have an RG6 drop there thats home run into the attic and they'd have to tie it in to the RG6 drop that goes down to the living room. No way in hell am I putting it anywhere near my router. That's like the worst possible location accessibility wise.


----------



## JosephB

There's a lot of gnashing of teeth over how to setup the HS17, but it is really simple. If the first client on the network is on the same physical coax/DECA cloud, then router settings, IPs, etc, are all meaningless. They can self-configure, regardless of the IP range actually in use in the customer's home, to a minimum configuration so that the client can talk to the HS-17 and show a UI. Then, more complicated wifi or IP configuration to get the HS-17 on the internet can be done. 

Sometimes (a lot of times) everyone here tries to overthink things. Don't get too ahead of yourselves


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> I would imagine it will be the same as the HR54 now.. If you hardwire it will disable wireless and you probably need to turn on the WVB to add a C61W


They wouldn't have included beamforming 802.11ac if it was only going to use its wireless to connect to your home internet. Why the hell does it need that simply to download VOD?

It is clearly using that to talk to the clients, so wireless works better and more importantly will work for higher bandwidth needs like streaming 4K with eventual wireless 4K clients.


----------



## RAD

compnurd said:


> We will need to see about the mixing of the Moca devices The Previous doc said up to 7 slot with a max of 5 being Moca 1.1.. not saying they could not have changed something.. It will be interesting because that means if someone upgrades and had 3-4 C31-C51 minis.. they need to change them all out to C61


Wonder how C41W's and existing WVB's would fit into that? I would guess that the WVB would count as one MOCA 1.1 device and not care how many C41W's are hung off of it.


----------



## peds48

RAD said:


> Wonder how C41W's and existing WVB's would fit into that? I would guess that the WVB would count as one MOCA 1.1 device and not care how many C41W's are hung off of it.


Client limitation is an artificial one, keep
In mind that right now DIRECTV limits 8 clients on a current Genie but DECA can support 16 nodes.

So you can have a wireless video bridge and the 7 clients.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

peds48 said:


> I would not say so, half of the Genies I see are not
> Connected to the internet, and this is on the big city, most folks nowadays are fine with what they have in their pockets to access the internet.


So do they not have home networks at all, or do they just not have their Wi-Fi password in their DirecTV boxes? I don't know anyone who doesn't have broadband, a lot of people don't have TV, or have very limited TV.



CraigerM said:


> - 2tb hard drive


Wow, that's pretty limited storage wise. It's a little bigger than a 3TB TiVo when you factor in compression, but you can't add more boxes on like most other DVR systems.



slice1900 said:


> Yeah none of that is new info other than a second confirmation of the "can't have any other boxes" rumor. I going to guess that means not sharing the same SWM - maybe they don't like mixing MoCA 2.0 and MoCA 1.1 devices. Be interesting to see how they enforce that for residential customers - if you get a HS17 will they take back everything else? Even for some of the people here who have oodles of DVRs and could easily swap a SWM16 for a SWM30 (when they come out) and keep them separated.


It sounds to me like it's all or nothing with the HS17. That really makes no sense. For installer training, they could send out a commercial installer for a few hundred bucks for the 1% of people who want an HS17 plus a bunch of other boxes if they don't limit it in software. Then again, they never got the software on the HR44/54 to handle multiple HR44/54s, which should have been fairly easy, so maybe the HS17 won't even be able to work with HR2x/44/54 boxes, even if they are on separate SWiM segments.



slice1900 said:


> I sure hope they allow for a way to disable its wireless, there's no way I'm going to have multiple wifi transmitters sitting around I can't disable - though I guess I could open them up and cut the wires to the antennas if all else fails.


You could build a faraday cage around it if you're really that worried about it?


----------



## peds48

Bigg said:


> So do they not have home networks at all, or do they just not have their Wi-Fi password in their DirecTV boxes? I don't know anyone who doesn't have broadband, a lot of people don't have TV, or have very limited TV.


Yeah, no home internet at all. They see no need for it as they can do mostly everything on their phones and/or tablets.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> Client limitation is an artificial one, keep
> In mind that right now DIRECTV limits 8 clients on a current Genie but DECA can support 16 nodes.
> 
> So you can have a wireless video bridge and the 7 clients.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Shouldn't a WVB count against the DECA node count and not the client count?

At least, certainly not as an RVU client like the minis or an RVU-enabled TV?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

peds48 said:


> Yeah, no home internet at all. They see no need for it as they can do mostly everything on their phones and/or tablets.


Wow. That is so weird, not having home internet, but having pay TV. Pay TV is a luxury, broadband internet is a necessity akin to running water and electricity.


----------



## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Shouldn't a WVB count against the DECA node count and not the client count?
> 
> At least, certainly not as an RVU client like the minis or an RVU-enabled TV?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Yes, exactly what I meant. I thought I read somewhere here that the HS17 will only support 7 clients but they can all watch TV at the same time, if not the case, please correct.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

Bigg said:


> Wow. That is so weird, not having home internet, but having pay TV. Pay TV is a luxury, broadband internet is a necessity akin to running water and electricity.


Again, I didn't say they don't have internet, they do, is just that they choose to access it differently.

This is in the big city where mobile internet is very reliable and fast for the most part.

I maybe different then most folks, but my priorities for these services are as follow

1. House internet 
2. Cell service with internet access
3. Pay TV.

So if money was tight, I would start by cutting from the bottom. As of now I only pay full price for 1 & 2 with 3 coming in heavily discounted.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> 1. House internet
> 2. Cell service with internet access
> 3. Pay TV.
> 
> So if money was tight, I would start by cutting from the bottom. As of now I only pay full price for 1 & 2 with 3 coming in heavily discounted.


Most ISPs do the same thing DirecTV does... call and ask for the loyalty / retention department and get a discount. I have internet and digital phone through Cox and I think sticker on the combo is like $110 - $120 and I'm only paying $88.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> They wouldn't have included beamforming 802.11ac if it was only going to use its wireless to connect to your home internet. Why the hell does it need that simply to download VOD?


Beamforming is overrated, improvements are neglible. You're talking ~2% to 4% in average real world use cases. Plus you need clients that support beamforming to make it work. Thirdly, the HS17 has internal antennas which won't really work very well. There's a reason routers have external antennas nowadays . They used to be internal and they didn't work as well as the external ones.


----------



## James Long

Bigg said:


> Wow. That is so weird, not having home internet, but having pay TV. Pay TV is a luxury, broadband internet is a necessity akin to running water and electricity.


According to Pew Research, only 88% of US adults use the Internet.
77% of US adults have a smart phone, 73% of US adults have broadband at home.

Running water and electricity are a bit more ubiquitous.


----------



## carl6

In reference to "never requiring software downloads"...

With an internet connection, it may well get software downloads via that route as opposed to satellite downloads. That would both be faster, and free up small amounts of satellite bandwidth. So saying "never require software downloads" would be an incomplete, but not false, statement. Never require software downloads via satellite would be accurate.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Beamforming is overrated, improvements are neglible. You're talking ~2% to 4% in average real world use cases. Plus you need clients that support beamforming to make it work. Thirdly, the HS17 has internal antennas which won't really work very well. There's a reason routers have external antennas nowadays . They used to be internal and they didn't work as well as the external ones.


Pretty sure the odd shape of the HS17 is entirely due to the antennas - it uses 3x MIMO on the 5 GHz, which accounts the triangular shape. Think of it as a squat triangular box with three antennas pointing straight up from each corner. But rather than having the antennas stick up (where customers could point them odd directions, break them off or whatever) they're built into the case. The plastic won't affect the signal.

The reason internal antennas didn't work as well for wireless routers is that they were generally an inch tall, so there was no room for proper antennas. The HS17 is what a foot tall? It should be fine in the antenna department.

I have to think the C61W clients will support beamforming on their end. The C61 was designed with the HS17 in mind by giving it MoCA 2.0, so I'm sure the C61W was likewise designed with it in mind.


----------



## slice1900

carl6 said:


> In reference to "never requiring software downloads"...
> 
> With an internet connection, it may well get software downloads via that route as opposed to satellite downloads. That would both be faster, and free up small amounts of satellite bandwidth. So saying "never require software downloads" would be an incomplete, but not false, statement. Never require software downloads via satellite would be accurate.


How would it free up satellite bandwidth? They can't assume every HS17 will have an internet connection. Maybe it could download updates over the internet if it has a connection, but they will have to provide them via satellite for customers who don't have internet. There are obviously going to be a higher percentage of satellite TV customers than cable TV customers who have no internet.


----------



## compnurd

Surprised no one is selling the C61 yet


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> Surprised no one is selling the C61 yet


Are the non-4K non-wireless C61s not out yet? I assumed those had been out for a while... I know the C61W isn't out yet, the only evidence you can see of its existence is on the RVU Alliance site.

If they aren't, I guess they will launch with the HS17.


----------



## peds48

Yep, the C61 is out, and it has been for awhile now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

slice1900 said:


> How would it free up satellite bandwidth?


I agree. As long as there are receivers not connected to the Internet DIRECTV will need to send updates via satellite.

Besides, broadcast remains the most efficient way of sending the same information to the largest number of points.


----------



## Bigg

peds48 said:


> Again, I didn't say they don't have internet, they do, is just that they choose to access it differently.
> 
> This is in the big city where mobile internet is very reliable and fast for the most part.
> 
> I maybe different then most folks, but my priorities for these services are as follow
> 
> 1. House internet
> 2. Cell service with internet access
> 3. Pay TV.


By internet I meant at home, not through a cell phone. I'd probably give up home internet before my phone, but that being said, pay TV is a luxury, and certainly comes after home broadband. The concept of not having home broadband but paying for TV is nuts to me unless you live out in the sticks somewhere and can't get home broadband (although there's satellite and LTE so at least you have *something*).



James Long said:


> According to Pew Research, only 88% of US adults use the Internet.
> 77% of US adults have a smart phone, 73% of US adults have broadband at home.
> 
> Running water and electricity are a bit more ubiquitous.


The smart phone numbers are incredible in terms of the pace of growth. Running water and electricity have been around a lot longer too.



slice1900 said:


> There are obviously going to be a higher percentage of satellite TV customers than cable TV customers who have no internet.


Yeah, if they have to put it on satellite, just do it via satellite. Unless ones connected to broadband get more frequent updates sooner. All cable customers, by definition, have internet, even if they don't subscribe to HSI from the cable company, since the newer boxes have built-in modems anyway that they can use to update software, do VOD, load graphics, etc, etc. DirecTV doesn't have that guaranteed.


----------



## Riverpilot

My biggest concern about d/l updates via the internet rather than the satellite is how often and how big, size wise, the update is. I'm guessing the updates aren't very big, considering they come over satellite fairly quick? If it's a gig or two once a month, no problem. If it's more, then we start running into issues of data caps by ISP's.

Either way, I'm personally fine with it since I have gig speeds and a 6tb data cap. Unless something changes, this is a day one, as soon as I can get it I want it, upgrade for me.


----------



## peds48

Bigg said:


> By internet I meant at home, not through a cell phone. I'd probably give up home internet before my phone, but that being said, pay TV is a luxury, and certainly comes after home broadband. The concept of not having home broadband but paying for TV is nuts to me unless you live out in the sticks somewhere and can't get home broadband (although there's satellite and LTE so at least you have *something*).
> 
> L


Not sure why this concept sounds so nuts to you. What can you access via home broadband that you can't access via mobile broadband.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dpeters11

Riverpilot said:


> My biggest concern about d/l updates via the internet rather than the satellite is how often and how big, size wise, the update is. I'm guessing the updates aren't very big, considering they come over satellite fairly quick? If it's a gig or two once a month, no problem. If it's more, then we start running into issues of data caps by ISP's.
> 
> Either way, I'm personally fine with it since I have gig speeds and a 6tb data cap. Unless something changes, this is a day one, as soon as I can get it I want it, upgrade for me.


RedH lists the firmware download of an HR54 at 30 meg. This does not include things like extra content downloaded later, like posters etc. But still not anything to be concerned about for normal caps.


----------



## Bigg

peds48 said:


> Not sure why this concept sounds so nuts to you. What can you access via home broadband that you can't access via mobile broadband.


Even if you have MHS on your phone, you still have a relatively limited data cap, and you don't have the "always on" connectivity of having a normal high speed internet connection. Furthermore, LTE just isn't fast enough to support applications like 4k streaming video or large downloads.


----------



## peds48

Bigg said:


> Even if you have MHS on your phone, you still have a relatively limited data cap, and you don't have the "always on" connectivity of having a normal high speed internet connection. Furthermore, LTE just isn't fast enough to support applications like 4k streaming video or large downloads.


You are missing the elephant in the room. These folks do not have Rokus or Apple TVs or Desktops, all the TV watching is done at their TV or mobile devices.

And if you have the right data plan you don't have to worry about data caps. A few months ago I used about 45 gigs on my iPhone (kinda by mistake) and I did not noticed any network management.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

Riverpilot said:


> My biggest concern about d/l updates via the internet rather than the satellite is how often and how big, size wise, the update is. I'm guessing the updates aren't very big, considering they come over satellite fairly quick? If it's a gig or two once a month, no problem. If it's more, then we start running into issues of data caps by ISP's.
> 
> Either way, I'm personally fine with it since I have gig speeds and a 6tb data cap. Unless something changes, this is a day one, as soon as I can get it I want it, upgrade for me.


HS17 firmware updates are 34 MB. I have to think they have bigger flash and maybe will get an upgraded GUI and more features down the road, but unless you had a month where they delivered multiple updates you'd be hard pressed to go much over 100MB. That's nothing compared to Windows' monthly updates.


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> How would it free up satellite bandwidth? They can't assume every HS17 will have an internet connection. Maybe it could download updates over the internet if it has a connection, but they will have to provide them via satellite for customers who don't have internet. There are obviously going to be a higher percentage of satellite TV customers than cable TV customers who have no internet.


Valid point.


----------



## patmurphey

Amazing amount of angst over a simple statement, Internet connection "preferred" (not mandatory) for software updates.


----------



## HoTat2

patmurphey said:


> Amazing amount of angst over a simple statement, Internet connection "preferred" (not mandatory) for software updates.


Yeah ...

But glad to see it's all been pretty much on topic about this HS17 this time ....

Kinda tired of James having to remind everyone to keep the discussion on it ... 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## tlarseth

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I have finally seen the HS-17, it will require a reverse band lnb on a ka/ku odu, it is compatible with wireless clients only. It will cat5 ethernet into the gateway, but will pull signal into the system via coax network to the HS-17, then wireless to the clients. I have heard rumors of a 4K wireless client coming out but I have yet to hear much else about them. I do know the HS-17 is now testing in San Diego, Ca and more information about it should start coming down from there soon.

FCC ID G95HS17 Genie Air by Technicolor Connected Home USA LLC More info on it with pictures.


----------



## peds48

tlarseth said:


> Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I have finally seen the HS-17, it will require a reverse band lnb on a ka/ku odu, it is compatible with wireless clients only.  It will cat5 ethernet into the gateway, but will pull signal into the system via coax network to the HS-17, then wireless to the clients. I have heard rumors of a 4K wireless client coming out but I have yet to hear much else about them. I do know the HS-17 is now testing in San Diego, Ca and more information about it should start coming down from there soon.
> 
> FCC ID G95HS17 Genie Air by Technicolor Connected Home USA LLC More info on it with pictures.


Wired clients are compatible as well

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Riverpilot

Wireless ONLY to clients? That would be idiotic. A lot of people, myself included, don't get very good coverage throughout their entire homes. I doubt they would make this "wireless ONLY" type of setup, but if it is... guess I'm out. Wired or nothing for me.


----------



## slice1900

It isn't wireless only, we already know that for 100% certainty thanks to ROK5TAR's post of the installation instructions, among other things.

People sure are quick to believe whatever misinformation gets posted about the HS17. Reminds me of how everyone got thrown into a panic based on a poorly worded statement by AT&T's CEO where people thought Directv was going to drop satellite and go streaming only...


----------



## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> Wired clients are compatible as well
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





slice1900 said:


> It isn't wireless only, we already know that for 100% certainty thanks to ROK5TAR's post of the installation instructions, among other things.
> 
> People sure are quick to believe whatever misinformation gets posted about the HS17. Reminds me of how everyone got thrown into a panic based on a poorly worded statement by AT&T's CEO where people thought Directv was going to drop satellite and go streaming only...


Thanks Peds and slice ...

Almost had a heart attack when I read tlarseth's post ... 

A wireless to client only option for the HS17 would have been a real deal killer for me.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

Found these new photos in that link that tlarseth posted. They also had photos of the inside but that link was too large to post.

In the internal photos it was using this Broadcom chip.

BCM7366


----------



## CraigerM

User manual also posted.


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> User manual also posted.


Thank you. Perhaps we should consider the manual "required reading"? Hopefully people take the time to read it.


----------



## compnurd

And there we have it. You can either use this tech mobile app or connect a client to it to see the set up screens. Page 20


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> Thank you. Perhaps we should consider the manual "required reading"? Hopefully people take the time to read it.


No problem. The earlier feature that I "Hardwiring from the customers router is preferred as this allows the HS17 to never require software downloads" I think its because of what they say in the manual. They prefer a wired connection and they want the HS-17 placed 4ft away from the Gateway. The Internet connection set-up asks are you sure you want wireless? Which is strange because my HR-44 is farther from that and says it my Internet connection is good.


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> I think its because of what they say in the manual. They prefer a wired connection and they want the HS-17 placed 4ft away from the Gateway. The Internet connection set-up asks are you sure you want wireless? Which is strange because my HR-44 is farther from that and says it my Internet connection is good.


Note that the preference to connect to the Internet is for initial software update and the manual makes it clear that via sat will also work ... just slower. (I assume additional updates will be available quickly via the Internet.)
The four feet is a MINIMUM distance to other wireless devices to avoid interference.

I like the humor in the manual. I hope it remains in the final version. "Help, I have fallen over ..."


----------



## peds48

And there you have it folks.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

Well it answers a few questions.

1) It can be a client to your home network, but over 2.4 GHz only. Presumably it does that to reserve the 5 GHz antennas for providing service to wireless clients.

2) It sounds like you don't need the installer's app. If you add a (wired or wireless) client to it (which may require the "add client" button on top) you can see the same screens as on the installer's app.

3) As James says, it can download its software over the internet (at least for initial install) which should speed things up a bit for the installer. But it will still work over satellite.

4) They've changed the way client activation works; it uses "full client tracking" and got rid of "lenient mode" (whatever that is) Those more familiar with the way the current process works, which I have zero experience with, can comment on the differences.

5) You can add additional WVBs to extend the network, so getting enough reach to cover your whole house probably won't be an issue for most.

6) It talks about the process to replace the HS17, but not whether recordings will be lost or can be moved. Since they aren't mentioned, presumably the same restrictions apply as with replacing a Genie/DVR today.

7) Interestingly one of the example screens showed it connected to an 8 tuner SWM. I wonder if it will work on that? I wouldn't have to replace my SWM16s with SWM30s if that's the case. This guide also says it takes 11 tuners, but that same screen shows 15 separate tuners...

8) It talks about Genie clients and MRV clients, and also mentions you have to have at least 11 tuners available on a SWM with at least 13 tuners. So there is the same support for non-clients on the same SWM/MoCA network as with the current Genie. But like I said, the talk about this not being possible may be a condition of testing, or may be a business decision for how they plan to offer this in the future.


From the internal photos (which were way more detailed than on previous Directv gear on the FCC site) I was able to learn it is using 64Mb (8MB) NOR flash chips. It may be a stack, or maybe there is some NAND there to hold the full code (which is a 34MB download, so can't fit in 8MB) Consumer wireless routers typically have a small amount of NOR flash for the basic boot code (u-boot) and NAND for the rest, which is then loaded into RAM and executed from there. Maybe it keeps the code on the hard drive, and they don't plan to make a version without a hard drive like the H44.

It looks like it uses 2Gb DDR3 RAM chip (or stack) so at least 256MB of RAM. There are various wifi chips from Broadcom and Quantenna that we already knew about, and of course the main SoC we already knew about, plus some I wasn't able to identify with a quick google. Maybe someone else will have more luck.

Good find CraigerM. I had checked the site last week but they hadn't put up any of this stuff despite the three month embargo expiring. Glad to see they finally posted it!


----------



## compnurd

The one RAM Chip H5AN4G6NAFR looks like it is a 4GB chip and there are two one them H5AN4G6NAFR-xxC are a 4Gb CMOS Double Data Rate IV (DDR4) Synchronous DRAM

The Other RAM Chip d9tbk Translates to a MT40A512M16JY-083E Which is a 8GB chip and there is two of them also.. This thing could have some serious HP with all of this DDR4 RAM


----------



## JosephB

a lot of interesting information within that PDF

It can record 2 4K channels at once, and 7 total recordings at once. 

Max of 2 4K clients out of a total of 8 registered clients, and 7 active

It can join a wifi network as well as serve as an access point for wireless clients. That will be huge for installers and getting more of these on the internet. 

So far the only strike against it is that it's yet another power supply. as big as this thing is, they should've just put the power supply inside the thing


----------



## P Smith

compnurd said:


> The one RAM Chip H5AN4G6NAFR looks like it is a 4GB chip and there are two one them H5AN4G6NAFR-xxC are a 4Gb CMOS Double Data Rate IV (DDR4) Synchronous DRAM
> 
> The Other RAM Chip d9tbk Translates to a MT40A512M16JY-083E Which is a 8GB chip and there is two of them also.. This thing could have some serious HP with all of this DDR4 RAM


these chip's size in Gbits, not bytes, so 24 Gb will fit in PDF data: 3GB RAM


> H. SPECIFICATIONS
> · Memory : 3 GB DDR4, 8MB SNOR / 256MB NAND Flash
> · Processor : BCM7366
> · Storage : 2 TB SATA HDD


----------



## Bill Broderick

I'm not sure that I understand the 11 tuners, but only 7 recordable tuners thing. Are they saying that you can watch Live TV at 4 client locations, while still recording 7 other programs at the same time?


----------



## slice1900

I guess we all missed this section of the manual on page 10: "3 GB DDR4, 8MB SNOR / 256MB NAND Flash"


----------



## P Smith

nope, I got it right away during reading first time and send PM to other member


----------



## slice1900

It isn't clear how the math works for recordings vs clients. Maybe it has some stupid limitation on using one of the 8 tuner chips for recording and the other for RVU? If it was limited to 7 RVU + recordings I'd kind of understand that - it would be preparing for the future since that is the maximum number of 4K RVU + recording it could do with bonded transponders. The screen that shows all the system info shows tuners 1-7 as "SAT, Record" and tuners 8-15 as "SAT". Of course that is hooked up to an 8 tuner SWM, so who knows...

Guess we'll have to wait until we can hopefully hear something from people in the test markets that are launching next month.


----------



## inkahauts

JosephB said:


> a lot of interesting information within that PDF
> 
> It can record 2 4K channels at once, and 7 total recordings at once.
> 
> Max of 2 4K clients out of a total of 8 registered clients, and 7 active
> 
> It can join a wifi network as well as serve as an access point for wireless clients. That will be huge for installers and getting more of these on the internet.
> 
> So far the only strike against it is that it's yet another power supply. as big as this thing is, they should've just put the power supply inside the thing


External power supplys are a good thing. Taking that much heat out of this box will make it last longer and cause less interference for all the wifi capabilities it has. I see that as a good thing. Plus easy to replace without losing recordings etc if the power supply went bad.


----------



## slice1900

Yeah, external power supplies are annoying, until you have to replace an entire device (whether it is a set top, a TV, or whatever) because of the failure of an internal power supply!

The PS outputs 72 watts, and while I'm sure there's some safety margin there, that's already a fair amount of heat for a box of this size. You don't to add more. Looks like it has a small fan inside to help with the heat though, which is nice. If you disable wireless it may only draw half that; 802.11ac APs are pretty power hungry.


----------



## Bill Broderick

inkahauts said:


> External power supplys are a good thing. Taking that much heat out of this box will make it last longer and cause less interference for all the wifi capabilities it has. I see that as a good thing. Plus easy to replace without losing recordings etc if the power supply went bad.


I agree completely. After the HR-44 was announced, but before we actually knew how much better it was than the HR-34, the external power supply was the primary reason that I decided to wait until the HR-44 was released before converting to a Genie environment.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> a lot of interesting information within that PDF
> 
> It can record 2 4K channels at once, and 7 total recordings at once.
> 
> Max of 2 4K clients out of a total of 8 registered clients, and 7 active
> 
> It can join a wifi network as well as serve as an access point for wireless clients. That will be huge for installers and getting more of these on the internet.
> 
> So far the only strike against it is that it's yet another power supply. as big as this thing is, they should've just put the power supply inside the thing


How many 4K channels can you do watch / record simultaneously on the Hopper 3? All I could find is 4 at once in Sports Bar mode, but nothing on full screen capabilities. Can't the Hopper 3 do 16 recordings at once? Just for a comparison to the HS17 of course .


----------



## patmurphey

SledgeHammer said:


> How many 4K channels can you do watch / record simultaneously on the Hopper 3? All I could find is 4 at once in Sports Bar mode, but nothing on full screen capabilities. Can't the Hopper 3 do 16 recordings at once? Just for a comparison to the HS17 of course .


Hopper3 can record 16 streams (19 with PTAT tuner) plus one OTA (new dongle 1 now, 2 promised with software upgrade in May)- max 21. No specific limitations on 4k have been published, but it will be a while before content demands an answer.


----------



## peds48

Bill Broderick said:


> I'm not sure that I understand the 11 tuners, but only 7 recordable tuners thing. Are they saying that you can watch Live TV at 4 client locations, while still recording 7 other programs at the same time?


It can record 7 total if no clients are being used.










Of course, you would still be able to watch recordings while all tuners are taken

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> How many 4K channels can you do watch / record simultaneously on the Hopper 3? All I could find is 4 at once in Sports Bar mode, but nothing on full screen capabilities. Can't the Hopper 3 do 16 recordings at once? Just for a comparison to the HS17 of course .


I have not read recently what the number is for 4k on dish, but they where saying because it can do 4k it can do sports bar mode. (I thought it was one or two to be honest, but can;t be positive) Not that they can display 4 4k signals. That's not how that works. 1 4k is equivalent to having 4 1080 on one screen, thats why they are able to do that.

Of course the catch is Dish has one 4k channel, and dtv has an entire 2. Its really about how many recorded programs can be watched at once IMHO and with so little content, i think it will be five years before anyone is fighting over needing more than 2 4k streams at a time on any provider. I hope its sooner, but somehow I doubt it.


----------



## CraigerM

With it having a 2 TB SATA hard drive and 3 GB of DDR4 ram does that mean it will reboot quicker? I wonder how fast the guide will be on the clients?


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I have not read recently what the number is for 4k on dish, but they where saying because it can do 4k it can do sports bar mode. (I thought it was one or two to be honest, but can;t be positive) Not that they can display 4 4k signals. That's not how that works. 1 4k is equivalent to having 4 1080 on one screen, thats why they are able to do that.
> 
> Of course the catch is Dish has one 4k channel, and dtv has an entire 2. Its really about how many recorded programs can be watched at once IMHO and with so little content, i think it will be five years before anyone is fighting over needing more than 2 4k streams at a time on any provider. I hope its sooner, but somehow I doubt it.


The limitation isn't the number of unique 4K channels you can watch, though. Being limited to recording two 4K channels isn't a problem today when there is really only one. But what if you have three 4K TVs and want to watch the same 4K program on all three TVs? Apparently the HS17 is only able to feed two 4K TVs, so you'd need two HS17s if you wanted to feed three 4K TVs.

This is the limitation I don't understand. The only thing I can think of is that they use dedicated tuners for bonding, though it makes no sense why they'd build in such a stupid limitation. i.e. the HR54's 5/7 tuner confusion is equal to the HS17's 11/15 tuner confusion. The difference of two tuners on the HR54 and four on the HS17 is because they support one and two bonded transponder pairs each. If that's what it is, that's a really ****ty implementation and they should have gone with DVB-S2X! They could have, since they haven't done bonding yet and I'll bet the HS17's tuner chips support DVB-S2X...


----------



## Bigg

I wonder if the tuner/recording limitation is arbitrary so that people can't go "I can't watch TV because someone is recording stuff", or if it is actually a hardware limitation? That would be pretty lame if it were a hardware limitation.

It sounds to me like they are betting that there won't be much 4k for a very long time if they are putting this thing out being able to only handle 2 4k streams at once. That's not something that you'd want if there are 50 4k channels a couple years down the road, which DirecTV claims they have the capacity for.

Also, this transponder bonding stuff sounds like a kludge all around. Are they thinking 3 channels per bonded TP pair? They're going to need to have a LOT of 4k content up to need to get that third 4k channel in the "middle" of the two TPs, assuming nothing else (international?) goes on the RB.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> The limitation isn't the number of unique 4K channels you can watch, though. Being limited to recording two 4K channels isn't a problem today when there is really only one. But what if you have three 4K TVs and want to watch the same 4K program on all three TVs? Apparently the HS17 is only able to feed two 4K TVs, so you'd need two HS17s if you wanted to feed three 4K TVs.
> 
> This is the limitation I don't understand. The only thing I can think of is that they use dedicated tuners for bonding, though it makes no sense why they'd build in such a stupid limitation. i.e. the HR54's 5/7 tuner confusion is equal to the HS17's 11/15 tuner confusion. The difference of two tuners on the HR54 and four on the HS17 is because they support one and two bonded transponder pairs each. If that's what it is, that's a really ****ty implementation and they should have gone with DVB-S2X! They could have, since they haven't done bonding yet and I'll bet the HS17's tuner chips support DVB-S2X...


I am really only concerned with viewing 4k programs at one time, not so much recording with so little content right now. To ye time? Dish or Directv or any other provider?our point, how many 4k programs are going to be on anyone's dvr right now that they will need to be able to watch 4k on five six or seven tvs at one time?


----------



## James Long

I can see why people are concerned with the limit of two 4K streams at a time. Perhaps most people would not hit the limit today or within the next year ... especially with only a channel or two of content. But with a HS17 "number of active 4K clients" would not be hard to max out at two. I see that limit and wonder how many years it will be until a receiver with more active 4K clients will be available.

It is twice as many streams as a HR-54. But I don't see two as "more than enough for the foreseeable future".


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> Also, this transponder bonding stuff sounds like a kludge all around. Are they thinking 3 channels per bonded TP pair? They're going to need to have a LOT of 4k content up to need to get that third 4k channel in the "middle" of the two TPs, assuming nothing else (international?) goes on the RB.


Its not a kludge, it is a way to get 50% more 4K channels in RB. Of course, the way things are going, they might not see a double digit number of 4K channels, so the need for it rather depends on 4K taking off instead of being basically DOA so far.


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> I can see why people are concerned with the limit of two 4K streams at a time. Perhaps most people would not hit the limit today or within the next year ... especially with only a channel or two of content. But with a HS17 "number of active 4K clients" would not be hard to max out at two. I see that limit and wonder how many years it will be until a receiver with more active 4K clients will be available.
> 
> It is twice as many streams as a HR-54. But I don't see two as "more than enough for the foreseeable future".


I don't really see 4K taking off until ATSC 3.0 is finalized. Somebody was saying that if local affiliates can't broadcast shows in 4K, they'll get all emo if cable / sat can. Plus, we've only gotten a few Wave 1 UHD Players. THAT I'm surprised about. Everybody was saying Xmas 2016.


----------



## CraigerM

I have changed my mind on the design and its not that bad looking. Also seeing the dimensions of it will fit in my entertainment cabinet. It has three shelves and the openings are 12" tall and 15" depth.


----------



## Bigg

James Long said:


> It is twice as many streams as a HR-54. But I don't see two as "more than enough for the foreseeable future".


People easily max out 2-tuner OTA DVRs, and there are basically only 5 or 6 decent channels in any given market available OTA, so having 4 tuners is ideal in that situation. The need for tuners really depends on what the channels are. If they are a bunch more VOOM-esque demo channels to push the 4k tonnage up, then 2 is adequate, but if we see a bunch of the major cable and premium networks go to 4k, 2 could quickly become inadequate.



slice1900 said:


> Its not a kludge, it is a way to get 50% more 4K channels in RB.


I thought they were moving international stuff from 95W over to RB? Then they could use the international stuff to backfill each TP after a 4k channel uses up more than half of it's bandwidth... That way, anything available in the US would be available on a 5D2. Or is international hanging out on 95W and leaving RB for 4k only? Is there anything else that could go on RB that has a limited enough audience that it would justify the LNB replacements?



SledgeHammer said:


> I don't really see 4K taking off until ATSC 3.0 is finalized. Somebody was saying that if local affiliates can't broadcast shows in 4K, they'll get all emo if cable / sat can. Plus, we've only gotten a few Wave 1 UHD Players. THAT I'm surprised about. Everybody was saying Xmas 2016.


Don't confuse OTA broadcasters, which likely won't go 4k anytime in the forseeable future, with ATSC 3.0 with UHD-BD with 4k streaming. 4k streaming came first, and will have the largest audience. Broadcasters could, in theory, do 4k without ATSC 3.0 by going through pay TV, and downscaling to 1080i for broadcast, but that's probably not going to happen for a variety of reasons. More likely is a very slow rollout of ATSC 3.0 with 1080i or p and multiple stations sharing a transmitter, or a whole plethora of new subchannels. Cable channels can still go 4k if they think it will benefit them, and that remains to be seen. UHD-BD is an amazing format, but it's still too early to see if it will achieve mainstream popularity, or be relegated to a niche market for online sales.

DirecTV is the only large pay tv provider who can push out a lot of linear 4k in the next couple of years. We might see a channel or two from other providers, but Charter and Comcast need to do IPTV before they can take a lot of 4k, if they ever want to, and DISH is just out of bandwidth.


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> With it having a 2 TB SATA hard drive and 3 GB of DDR4 ram does that mean it will reboot quicker? I wonder how fast the guide will be on the clients?


Rokstar said the speed was the same on the client on the one install he did


----------



## Bill Broderick

peds48 said:


> It can record 7 total if no clients are being used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, you would still be able to watch recordings while all tuners are taken
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes. But the page before that one indicates that it's using 11 tuners in total and page 33 shows the Info screen that identifies the first 7 tuners as "SAT,Record" and the remaining tuners (they actually list tuners 8-15) as just "SAT". What are tuners 8-11 being used for? With the description of SAT only in the info screen, they are giving the impression that they can be used to view content, but not record it.


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> People easily max out 2-tuner OTA DVRs, and there are basically only 5 or 6 decent channels in any given market available OTA, so having 4 tuners is ideal in that situation. The need for tuners really depends on what the channels are. If they are a bunch more VOOM-esque demo channels to push the 4k tonnage up, then 2 is adequate, but if we see a bunch of the major cable and premium networks go to 4k, 2 could quickly become inadequate.
> 
> I thought they were moving international stuff from 95W over to RB? Then they could use the international stuff to backfill each TP after a 4k channel uses up more than half of it's bandwidth... That way, anything available in the US would be available on a 5D2. Or is international hanging out on 95W and leaving RB for 4k only? Is there anything else that could go on RB that has a limited enough audience that it would justify the


First the second part there. I'm not sure they can or will ever mix two different types of compression on the same transponder and you won't see them using hvec for SD stations or even Hi Definition ones I don't think. Even if it was just foreign. They'd have to replace to many boxes. One lnb swap isn't as big a deal. I do t Hi k there's is an mpeg4 box out there that can't get RB signals. But who knows for sure???

As for 4k there two things. One is channels. I could easily see by the end of this year dtv having several premium 4k channels like an HBO or starz. And then maybe a couple big cable players. Espn USA TNT etc. and then toss in a couple more 4k only discovery type channels.

But truth is even if you have 20 channels if it's a cable station there's two things to remember.... first is cable repeats things. You could easily record 20 shows even if they where all on at the same time with a two tuner DVR because they repeat everything. Just set it up and the DVR will catch them all during their repeats when there isn't a conflict. This isn't true for over the air stations though, however I dont see them factoring into the 4k discussion for five years if then.

Second content. Even if we had 50 stations tomorrow not everything on them would be 4k. So factor in the number of shows actually in 4k and the amount of times everything on cable is repeated and two is enough for a long time imho. I just don't see enough sports being broadcast in 4k in the next few years to make this beyond difficult with just two tuners for 4k.

I have always felt two tuners would catch everything I watch on all cable channels. But I needed five to catch everything from
Over the air. And then personally I'd like four more after that to catch all my sports. I still might miss one or two games here and there but that'd catch everything that was important easily. So really to me one genie right now takes care of all over the air and cable channels. It's short comings is it can't catch all my sports teams if it catches all that other stuff.


----------



## peds48

Bill Broderick said:


> Yes. But the page before that one indicates that it's using 11 tuners in total and page 33 shows the Info screen that identifies the first 7 tuners as "SAT,Record" and the remaining tuners (they actually list tuners 8-15) as just "SAT". What are tuners 8-11 being used for? With the description of SAT only in the info screen, they are giving the impression that they can be used to view content, but not record it.


See slice1900 post 1027 for reverse band explanation. Don't let the 5/7 11/15 confuse you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

compnurd said:


> Rokstar said *the speed was the same* on the client on the one install he did


it should as APG spooling at same pace and it's define time to accumulate its elements/tables


----------



## compnurd

P Smith said:


> it should as APG spooling at same pace and it's define time to accumulate its elements/tables


Unless the CPU was faster in the C61 you wouldn't see a difference. Especially if the code is not written to take advantage of a faster CPU. Reminds me of when the TiVo mini came out with the TiVo premiere. That had a faster CPU and the code took advantage of it resulting in the clients being twice as fast as the host


----------



## P Smith

during initial [long] part of the STB boot, time of CPU cycles processing APG is minuscule to bit-rate of APG streams (!);
adding to that, the STB doing tuning to each a few tpns with own portion of APG by one network tuner (for different networks the data are streaming on different tpns) what would add time too

as a similar process - regardless of how many horsepower in your car, gas topping would limit of your refueling time in whole short trip


----------



## James Long

inkahauts said:


> Even if we had 50 stations tomorrow not everything on them would be 4k. So factor in the number of shows actually in 4k and the amount of times everything on cable is repeated and two is enough for a long time imho. I just don't see enough sports being broadcast in 4k in the next few years to make this beyond difficult with just two tuners for 4k.


The bootleneck that I see is max two 4K *clients*. Twice what one can do today on an HR54 but basically a limit of two 4K TVs per household until the replacement for the HS17 is introduced (or the HS17 is upgraded - if possible - to more 4K clients. Unless there is some weirdness where a client is a 4K client as needed and falls back to being a regular client when not watching 4K content. But that still limits the system to two 4K playbacks in the household at one time. Probably OK today but for how long?


----------



## peds48

James Long said:


> The bootleneck that I see is max two 4K *clients*.


Being that there is nothing inherently differently between a regular client and a 4K client as far as RVU is concern, one can deduced that the limit is for streams and not that clients themselves.

As it stands now, you can have up to eight 4K clients with an HR54 so no reason to believe truly can have that many with the 17 as it has the same eight client limitation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bill Broderick

peds48 said:


> See slice1900 post 1027 for reverse band explanation. Don't let the 5/7 11/15 confuse you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gotcha. Thanks. The limitations of this unit are disappointing. Even Cablevision is providing 10 recordable tuners (it may be 15 now) on their networked DVR's.

If the limitation of only being able to use this with clients (no receivers or DVR's) doesn't change, I'm still better off with my Genie and two HR-24's than with

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## AZ.

Bill Broderick said:


> Gotcha. Thanks. The limitations of this unit are disappointing. Even Cablevision is providing 10 recordable tuners (it may be 15 now) on their networked DVR's.
> 
> If the limitation of only being able to use this with clients (no receivers or DVR's) doesn't change, I'm still better off with my Genie and two HR-24's than with
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I really dont think any cable company has the bandwidth to do anything close to what your saying with 4k! HD yes,SD yes, 4k, not a chance


----------



## Bill Broderick

AZ. said:


> I really dont think any cable company has the bandwidth to do anything close to what your saying with 4k! HD yes,SD yes, 4k, not a chance


Cablevision is recording remotely. So, recordings don't require any bandwidth. The playback does. I never need more than 2 streams at a time. When I need more than one, that's only because I'm copying something to the hard drive of my DVD recorder. So, I don't see myself needing multiple 4K streams simultaneously for a long time.

Don't get me wrong, I find the latency caused by Cablevision remote recording unacceptable (although, I have to admit that it has gotten better). But, 7 recordable tuners, while eliminating the ability to have additional DVR's in the system, is not reallyich of a step forward.

If they made all 11 tuners available for recording non-4K programming, but then used 3 of those tuners to record a 4K, program (meaning that they would be down to 7 simultaneous recordings when recording two 4K programs) , that would be far more acceptable.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

Bill Broderick said:


> If they made all 11 tuners available for recording non-4K programming, but then used 3 of those tuners to record a 4K, program (meaning that they would be down to 7 simultaneous recordings when recording two 4K programs) , that would be far more acceptable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


The problem with that is then you would have customers doing the math. So they record ten programs but then they can watch that 4K show.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bill Broderick

peds48 said:


> The problem with that is then you would have customers doing the math. So they record ten programs but then they can watch that 4K show.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are you saying that tuners would be required to serve recorded 4K content or are you talking about trying to watch a 4k show live? If the latter, couldn't they just give the same conflict screen that they currently use on HR's and indicate any 4K programming and the fact that it requires 3 tuners? They already have a limit that you can only record (or watch) two 4K programs simultaneously. So, there already needs to be new messaging to address someone trying to record or watch three.

Question... Do the same 3 tuners need to be "bonded" (I don't know the correct terminology for this) in order to record 4K or is it variable?

For example, would tuner 1 need to be bonded with tuners 8 & 9 and tuner 2 bonded with 10 & 11 to record 4K or if they made all tuners recordable, is it even feasible to "bond" any three available tuners (1, 7 & 11 for example) at the time of the recording?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

Say, I'm lost here ...

When did the need go to "3" tuners for recording a 4K program?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bill Broderick

HoTat2 said:


> Say, I'm lost here ...
> 
> When did the need go to "3" tuners for recording a 4K program?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Take a look at slices post# 1027 that peds pointed me to earlier.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

Bill Broderick said:


> Take a look at slices post# 1027 that peds pointed me to earlier.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Ok, just reread it ...

But don't see anything about 3 tuners needed to record a 4K channel, but 2 bonded tuners per 4K channel.

Are you sure you're not confusing DIRECTV's future goal of "3" 4K programs multiplexed over two bonded transponders with needing "3" tuners to record one 4K program?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> I thought they were moving international stuff from 95W over to RB? Then they could use the international stuff to backfill each TP after a 4k channel uses up more than half of it's bandwidth... That way, anything available in the US would be available on a 5D2. Or is international hanging out on 95W and leaving RB for 4k only? Is there anything else that could go on RB that has a limited enough audience that it would justify the LNB replacements?


There's never been even a hint of this officially, but a lot of us assumed Directv would mirror the international channels on 95* using reverse band, because it would make so much sense - then when they did an international install, instead of requiring two dishes and a SWM8, they could install a Slimline with reverse band LNB. They'd save a lot of money in both equipment and installer time.

However, they haven't used reverse band for anything yet, and there's no hint of when they will. The closer it gets to 2019 when MPEG2 SD (which includes 95*) shuts down, the less money they'd save from doing this and the greater the likelihood of status quo. The G3C satellite at 95* is pretty old, and its replacements have already been launched and put into operation. The new satellites aren't capable of broadcast to the US, so it looks very likely that after 2019 95* will simply go away, and those channels will be carried in MPEG4 SD on Directv's US satellite fleet.

Even if they did mirror those international channels in reverse band, it would only be temporary. If they wanted to make it the permanent home after 2019 they'd have to upgrade every international customer to a reverse band LNB before the cutoff date. That's also why I don't think they'll wind up on 119 - they'd have to upgrade them all to a SL5 LNB. If the post-2019 permanent home of the international channels is 99/101/103 then international customers won't require an installer visit (unless they are also SD only) making it very cheap.

The stat muxes they use to dynamically shape the bandwidth of the various channels sharing a transponder require every channel use the same compression. They can mix MPEG4 HD and MPEG4 SD in the same transponder, but can't mix MPEG4 HD and MPEG2 SD, and unless things have changed with HEVC capable stat muxes, could not mix HEVC 4K and MPEG4 SD.


----------



## Bill Broderick

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, just reread it ...
> 
> But don't see anything about 3 tuners needed to record a 4K channel, but 2 bonded tuners per 4K channel.
> 
> Are you sure you're not confusing DIRECTV's future goal of "3" 4K programs multiplexed over two bonded transponders with needing "3" tuners to record one 4K program?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I may have made the leap, with the HR-54 having 7 tuners (but only 5 usable) and being able to record one 4K program and the HS17 having 11 tuners (but only 7 usable) and being able to record two 4K programs, along with slices post regarding the "bonding" of tuners for 4K recording to mean that the two extra "unusable" tuners, per 4K program that can be recorded, are required for that 4K recording.

If I incorrectly jumping to conclusions based on slices post (and the fact that peds pointed me to that post, which tells me that slices assumptions are probably lying accurate), I hope that someone can clarify.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> unless things have changed with HEVC capable stat muxes, could not mix HEVC 4K and MPEG4 SD.


unless DTV cannot afford/buy/use same H.265 & H.264 encoders what are working in Europe and perfectly broadcasting muxes of UHD and MPEG-4 SD channels on same tpn


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> unless DTV cannot afford/buy/use same H.265 & H.264 encoders what are working in Europe and perfectly broadcasting muxes of UHD and MPEG-4 SD channels on same tpn


They are using HEVC/h.265 for their 4K? Good to hear that limitation has been removed. Not that Directv is likely to ever do that, but it is nice to have the option.


----------



## inkahauts

I'm now expecting the 95 stuff to land on 101 myself. Personally I'd be mirroring it right now today on BSS for any new installs. Then it won't matter where they end up after 95 goes away because the customer would have the lnb for them to be located anywhere.


----------



## JosephB

P Smith said:


> unless DTV cannot afford/buy/use same H.265 & H.264 encoders what are working in Europe and perfectly broadcasting muxes of UHD and MPEG-4 SD channels on same tpn


Are they in the same mux, though?


----------



## peds48

Bill Broderick said:


> I may have made the leap, with the HR-54 having 7 tuners (but only 5 usable) and being able to record one 4K program and the HS17 having 11 tuners (but only 7 usable) and being able to record two 4K programs, along with slices post regarding the "bonding" of tuners for 4K recording to mean that the two extra "unusable" tuners, per 4K program that can be recorded, are required for that 4K recording.
> 
> If I incorrectly jumping to conclusions based on slices post (and the fact that peds pointed me to that post, which tells me that slices assumptions are probably lying accurate), I hope that someone can clarify.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yes 4K requires two tuners, dont know if they need to be sequential. So in addition to customers keeping track of how many can be recorded at the same time, having them figure out that X can be 4K and X can be HD can be confusing for some folks, so better to keep it standard across all channels.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

So does having SWIM 15 on the HS-17 mean you can only have seven recordings going at the same time while being able to watch 8 shows at the same time?


----------



## Bill Broderick

CraigerM said:


> So does having SWIM 15 on the HS-17 mean you can only have seven recordings going at the same time while being able to watch 8 shows at the same time?


Apparently not.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> Yes 4K requires two tuners, dont know if they need to be sequential. So in addition to customers keeping track of how many can be recorded at the same time, having them figure out that X can be 4K and X can be HD can be confusing for some folks, so better to keep it standard across all channels.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ok, so the way it appears to be coming into focus so far is ...

There are a total of 15 programming tuners + 1 Network tuner in all?

If the HS17 detects a connection to a standard analog SWiM-8 LNB or ext. multiswitch, it takes 7 tuners with tuners 8 -15 disabled?

If the HS17 detects a Reverse Band enabled digital LNB like the 3D2RB or 5D2RB, it will take 11 tuners with 4 reserved for future 4K bonded transponder operation on the RB (two tps. each for dual 4K channel reception). With tuners 12 - 15 disabled?

Therefore, in either scenario this still leaves the purpose of tuners 12 - 15 a mystery?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, so the way it appears to be coming into focus so far is ...
> 
> There are a total of 15 programming tuners + 1 Network tuner in all?
> 
> If the HS17 detects a connection to a standard analog SWiM-8 LNB or ext. multiswitch, it takes 7 tuners with tuners 8 -15 disabled?
> 
> If the HS17 detects a Reverse Band enabled digital LNB like the 3D2RB or 5D2RB, it will take 11 tuners with 4 reserved for future 4K bonded transponder operation on the RB (two tps. each for dual 4K channel reception). With tuners 12 - 15 disabled?
> 
> Therefore, in either scenario this still leaves the purpose of tuners 12 - 15 a mystery?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


The HS17 will require a reverse band LNB, scoring to the docs

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> So does having SWIM 15 on the HS-17 mean you can only have seven recordings going at the same time while being able to watch 8 shows at the same time?


Kinda. You can record 7 shows while watching 7 more from the playlist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> The HS17 will require a reverse band LNB, scoring to the docs
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, ... thought I read slice mention awhile back a connection to a standard SWiM-8 in one of the illustrations in the manual...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

inkahauts said:


> First the second part there. I'm not sure they can or will ever mix two different types of compression on the same transponder and you won't see them using hvec for SD stations or even Hi Definition ones I don't think. Even if it was just foreign. They'd have to replace to many boxes. One lnb swap isn't as big a deal. I do t Hi k there's is an mpeg4 box out there that can't get RB signals. But who knows for sure???


I didn't think of the different compression types. I'd buy that for a stat mux, but what about a CBR 4k channel, and the remaining stat muxed with H.264?



> But truth is even if you have 20 channels if it's a cable station there's two things to remember.... first is cable repeats things.


A PITA to schedule, but yes, a good point.



> Second content. Even if we had 50 stations tomorrow not everything on them would be 4k.


While this is true, they very likely would yield a better picture quality for non-4k content, especially for content produced in 1080i/p for a 720p cable network. See SD content on HD channels. It's not HD, but it's way better than normal SD.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> There's never been even a hint of this officially, but a lot of us assumed Directv would mirror the international channels on 95* using reverse band, because it would make so much sense - then when they did an international install, instead of requiring two dishes and a SWM8, they could install a Slimline with reverse band LNB. They'd save a lot of money in both equipment and installer time.


Interesting. Couldn't they make a version of a SWiM LNB with a port for 95W to eliminate the need for an external multiswitch? Or is that pointless at this point since 95W is going away?



> Even if they did mirror those international channels in reverse band, it would only be temporary. If they wanted to make it the permanent home after 2019 they'd have to upgrade every international customer to a reverse band LNB before the cutoff date. That's also why I don't think they'll wind up on 119 - they'd have to upgrade them all to a SL5 LNB. If the post-2019 permanent home of the international channels is 99/101/103 then international customers won't require an installer visit (unless they are also SD only) making it very cheap.


Interesting. So they likely end up on 99c/103c in MPEG-4? How much bandwidth do they even use? There aren't that many international channels, and it looks like most are SD-only. If some HDs move to 101 after retiring SD/MPEG-2, and 4k moves to RB, it seems like they are pretty much set for bandwidth unless more than 50 4k channels magically pop up from nowhere, or 4k LiLs become a thing (unlikely).


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> I didn't think of the different compression types. I'd buy that for a stat mux, but what about a CBR 4k channel, and the remaining stat muxed with H.264?
> 
> A PITA to schedule, but yes, a good point.
> 
> While this is true, they very likely would yield a better picture quality for non-4k content, especially for content produced in 1080i/p for a 720p cable network. See SD content on HD channels. It's not HD, but it's way better than normal SD.


I just don't see DIRECTV mixing different compressions no matter what.

And it's not a pita to schedule at all. I follow a simple rule. Order your series links by channel number and leave the to do list alone. It will automatically catch the repeated version of a show it didn't record at the first airing due to a higher priority program being recorded. You have to do nothing. I find the locals are all low channel numbers that don't repeats and higher up you go the more it repeated. Especially premiums.

A few things about the last bit.

One I don't see the picture quality of an SD channel being better on hvec vs mpeg4. The improvement on mpeg4 is because it's no longer bit starved. So there's not much room for improvement after that.

Second they aren't going to upgrade everyone to hvec devices. No way. Mpeg4 will be the new minimum and they are going to go that route so they don't have to replace almost all their customers boxes. I doubt they will need to replace more than 20% of their customer boxes. And that's probably a high guess. Also remember that the only device that can play back a hvec signal is the c61k and you can only catch one channel at most at a time right now for RB signals too if they uses bonded transponders. There's just more reasons not to use hvec than there even is to consider it for anything other than 4k.


----------



## Bill Broderick

I follow the same recording rules for the most part. However, there are a couple of exceptions. Sports, specifically team recordings, get moved to the top of the list, above locals. Then shows that I absolutely want to see as early as possible, such as Game of Thrones and other Sunday night HBO & Showtime shows, are moved between the locals and all of the other "cable" channels. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Bill Broderick said:


> I follow the same recording rules for the most part. However, there are a couple of exceptions. Sports, specifically team recordings, get moved to the top of the list, above locals. Then shows that I absolutely want to see as early as possible, such as Game of Thrones and other Sunday night HBO & Showtime shows, are moved between the locals and all of the other "cable" channels.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Sports is a hard one. I have a DVR just for sports so I cheat a little in that regard. 

And HBO, shoot it's available streaming right after it first airs.

But I also don't have that issue in general because I'm on the west coast. Simply moving it to just after locals would be suffice since it's on before prime time for me anyway. But makes perfect sense. I just don't ever worry about when things are on myself other than sports.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I'm now expecting the 95 stuff to land on 101 myself. Personally I'd be mirroring it right now today on BSS for any new installs. Then it won't matter where they end up after 95 goes away because the customer would have the lnb for them to be located anywhere.


I agree. I think all the MPEG2 SD channels on 101, 119 and 95 will be carried in MPEG4 SD on 101, which will expand to 32 CONUS transponders when its MPEG2 SD spots are dropped.

Mirroring them makes so much sense that the fact they haven't done so makes me wonder why. Is there some sort of technical or regulatory issue preventing them from using reverse band? They are broadcasting something on it since people see non-zero numbers on some of the tpns, so maybe they are testing stuff but that's a long time for testing. Anyone remember how long it was from after the first Ka satellite was live to when the first channels appeared on 99 or 103?


----------



## Soccernut

So I have 1 HR44, 1 HR24 and 1 wireless mini that I can move anywhere in the house that's mostly used at my patio, can record 7 shows combined on a whole home setup, have 3 HD TV"s don't plan on buying a 4K TV for a while. Do I miss anything by not getting a HS 17?


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> Yes 4K requires two tuners, dont know if they need to be sequential. So in addition to customers keeping track of how many can be recorded at the same time, having them figure out that X can be 4K and X can be HD can be confusing for some folks, so better to keep it standard across all channels.


There's no reason why they would need to be sequential. The receivers are getting them via SWM, so whether you pair for example 99cr tpn 1 and 2 or 4 and 16 can't matter. If there was some sort of reason why they had to be sequential for how the receiver's software bonding worked, they'd arrange to have them sequential. By, say, reserving tuners 7 & 8 on the HR54 and tuners 13 & 14 and 15 & 16 on the HS17.

Since the HS17 is using Broadcom's BCM45208 8 tuner DVB-S2 (presumably there are two dies under that the heat spreader with that marking) and not the newer BCM45308 DVB-S2X chip, they are stuck with their braindead home grown software bonding hack. I can't figure out why it seems to require reserving tuners for transponders that will be bonded. It doesn't make any sense to me, but that's the only conclusion that can be drawn from the way the HR54 reserves two tuners and is limited to one 4K channel, and the HS17 reserves four tuners and is limited to two 4K channels.

So if it nominally has 11 tuners not counting the reserved ones, I'm going to guess that the limit of HD/SD recordings + live streams is 11, and since it only has 2 pairs of reserved tuners, the limit of 4K recordings + live streams is only 2! If 4K takes off they are going to need 32 tuner receivers and LNBs since they effectively need *three* transponders for every "tuner" since the HD/SD ones can't be used by 4K and the 4K ones can't be used by HD/SD! Whoever came up with their bonding scheme should be fired.


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> The HS17 will require a reverse band LNB, scoring to the docs


It says it requires any of the newer LNBs, with the only requirement that it have 11 tuners free. And that example info screen clearly shows it connected to a Zinwell SWM8, so apparently it will work (or did work when that picture was taken) with analog SWM8 LNBs. Obviously you'd lose functionality, though if you don't have DVR service there's not really any point to giving it more than 8 tuners, since it can only serve 7 clients at a time anyway.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> Interesting. Couldn't they make a version of a SWiM LNB with a port for 95W to eliminate the need for an external multiswitch? Or is that pointless at this point since 95W is going away?


If they were going to, they would have done so a long time ago. I guess the cost difference of external SWM8 versus using an LNB with a SWM8 built in wasn't enough to compensate for the cost of putting a 95* port in the SWM LNB.



Bigg said:


> Interesting. So they likely end up on 99c/103c in MPEG-4? How much bandwidth do they even use? There aren't that many international channels, and it looks like most are SD-only. If some HDs move to 101 after retiring SD/MPEG-2, and 4k moves to RB, it seems like they are pretty much set for bandwidth unless more than 50 4k channels magically pop up from nowhere, or 4k LiLs become a thing (unlikely).


I think 101 is much more likely. There are currently 7 Ku transponders used on 95, a bit over 60 channels. They could easily fit in 3 Ka or reverse band transponders using MPEG4. Heck, they could probably fit in 3 Ku transponders, since I don't think all 7 of the current transponders are full.

I wouldn't look for HD channels to move to 101. I used to think that, but I've come around to the viewpoint that they are only discontinuing MPEG2 SD in 2019. They will still have SD channels on 101 after that date, they'll just be in MPEG4 now - and any channels that Directv has an HD version of will be 16:9 SD since they'd simply be scaling the HD channel. They'll look better since the improved compression means they won't be bandwidth starved anymore, and that will allow RV/boat/camping customers who want a small cheap easy to aim dish to keep using the same 18" dish they always have. They'll just have to trade their D1x for an H2x.


----------



## P Smith

JosephB said:


> Are they in the same mux, though?


yes


----------



## P Smith

peds48 said:


> Yes 4K requires two tuners


not now
if (!) DTV will go for bonding tpns


----------



## P Smith

peds48 said:


> The HS17 will require a reverse band LNB, scoring to the docs


if you do scouring again you would find this:



> All Minimum Requirements of Genie are applicable to Genie AirTM EXCEPT the Genie AirTM
> requires:
> · DSWiM (DSWiM 13 module, *SL3DS* LNB, *3D2* LNB, 3D2RB LNB or 5D2RB LNB)
> · Minimum of 11 available SWiM channels
> · Minimum of 1 registered Client.


----------



## peds48

P Smith said:


> if you do scouring again you would find this:
> 
> All Minimum Requirements of Genie are applicable to Genie AirTM EXCEPT the Genie AirTM
> requires:
> · DSWiM (DSWiM 13 module, *SL3DS* LNB, *3D2* LNB, 3D2RB LNB or 5D2RB LNB)
> · Minimum of 11 available SWiM channels
> · Minimum of 1 registered Client.


My bad. I confused reverse band with digital SWM. You are correct, digital SWM and above required.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> My bad. I confused reverse band with digital SWM. You are correct, digital SWM and above required.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was wondering about this regarding the HR54 as well ...

Do the non-RB DSWM-13 module or the 3D1 and 3D2 digital LNBs cause the two additional transponder bonding tuners 6 and 7, on the HR54 to be enabled and assigned SWM channels?

Don't know why DIRECTV would write the code for the HR54 or HS17 in such a way since transponder bonding is only intended for the RB.

Or at least I thought...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

One thing I think we forgot with seeing the HS-17 manual does that confirm that DTV is official done with the H/HR system and they wont be coming out with anymore of those boxes and is going full on with Server/Client?


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> One thing I think we forgot with seeing the HS-17 manual does that confirm that DTV is official done with the H/HR system and they wont be coming out with anymore of those boxes and is going full on with Server/Client?


I don't think we can read something like that from a manual, there is certainly not and won't be anything "official" about a company's strategic direction contained in a user manual.

We haven't seen any new equipment that couldn't serve clients for six years. The only difference with the HS17 is that it doesn't output video, but like the HR34/44/54, it is designed to serve clients. So I think it is pretty safe to infer client/server is where they have been going since 2011 and will continue going. Actually that's probably been their plan far longer, since they showed off a forerunner of the HR34 years earlier.

An IMHO more interesting question for a lot of people here that the manual does shed some light on is whether it will be permitted to mix HS17s and other stuff like HR24s. Since the manual mentions use of both RVU and MRV in conjunction with the HS17, and talks about the need for "11 available tuners" to connect an HS17, it has clearly not been written from the perspective of the HS17 not working with other equipment. It does not mention the possibility of another 'server' device that can have clients like an HR34/44/54. So I expect you will have to trade in your Genie to get the Genie Air, but you'll be able to keep your HR24s etc. I still think the talk we're hearing about needing a second dish for the HS17 is a condition applied only to those testing it to reduce variables, and won't be the policy when it is officially rolled out nationwide. But that's just a guess, and the language in the manual could always change if Directv has changed their mind on that.

The other open question is how long you'll be able to get standalone receivers and DVRs. Even if they don't allow you to get them along with an HS17, will they let you get them for an RV? Or will you need to bring your HS17 and a client from home, or get a second account with its own HS17 + client, for the RV? While I think those who are whining about having "another box" with the HS17 are complaining about nothing, it isn't that big, but in an RV where space is at a premium it may be more of a concern. Though the wireless capability would be nice if they don't have coax where they want their TV.


----------



## Bill Broderick

CraigerM said:


> One thing I think we forgot with seeing the HS-17 manual does that confirm that DTV is official done with the H/HR system and they wont be coming out with anymore of those boxes and is going full on with Server/Client?


We've seen no such thing. Unless they allow for multiple HS-17's, doing so would eliminate everyone who wants / needs more than 7 tuners.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## RAD

Bill Broderick said:


> We've seen no such thing. Unless they allow for multiple HS-17's, doing so would eliminate everyone who wants / needs more than 7 tuners.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If anything past experience has shown was that DIRECTV is not that interested in supporting the customer that doesn't fit their 'average' user. Hence the no more then one Genie per account since most customers don't need more then 5 tuners. A limit of 100 SL's since most customers don't need more then 100. No more AM21/OTA support since most customers don't need OTA. No saving recordings to an external drive for backup and off load from the DVR since most customers don't need that. No more PIP since most customers don't use it. No more stop button on the remote since most customers don't use it. See the pattern here?


----------



## slice1900

Bill Broderick said:


> We've seen no such thing. Unless they allow for multiple HS-17's, doing so would eliminate everyone who wants / needs more than 7 tuners.


I predict they will allow multiple HS17s. It sounds like they've changed the way it associates with clients, perhaps that change was to allow it to keep better track of who owns what client in an environment with multiple HS17s. The fact the HR24 gets older by the day without replacement means that can't be the plan for such customers for very long. If someone has a mansion with 20 TVs, are they really going to offer them an HS17, some clients, and bunch of 5+ year old HR24s and H25s? I can't see it.

The catch is that you may not be able to have two on a SWM LNB. If it refuses to work without at least 11 tuners (or 15 when connected to a reverse band SWM) and doesn't provide a way to disable some, you'd need a legacy LNB and Digital SWM 30 switch to handle two.

The math is a bit interesting in regards to the SWM 30. The HS17 has a SWM-15 input, and the SWM 30 probably has two 15 channel outputs - though based on a recent Directv patent filing, there's a chance it may be a single 30 channel output. Either way, it looks like it has been planned for two HS17s per switch. If you add up (HS17 + 7 clients) x 2 you get 16 DECA nodes, the DECA limit. Surely 14 tuners / TVs is enough for even dbstalk power users


----------



## slice1900

RAD said:


> If anything past experience has shown was that DIRECTV is not that interested in supporting the customer that doesn't fit their 'average' user. Hence the no more then one Genie per account since most customers don't need more then 5 tuners. A limit of 100 SL's since most customers don't need more then 100. No more AM21/OTA support since most customers don't need OTA. No saving recordings to an external drive for backup and off load from the DVR since most customers don't need that. No more PIP since most customers don't use it. No more stop button on the remote since most customers don't use it. See the pattern here?


Most customers don't need more than 5 tuners, but if you wanted 50 they'd offer you a stack of HR24s to go along with your Genie. Just because they didn't offer that person 10 Genies doesn't mean they weren't interested in supporting them. Same with the 100 SLs, you could get more DVRs if you wanted to handle that.

It remains to seen whether the AM21 is the end of the road for OTA, or the lack of AM21 support in the HS17 is because they're replacing it. I don't know anything about the external drive thing you're referring to. The HS17 has an eSATA port, why have that if you aren't going to be allowed to plug in an external drive?


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> I don't think we can read something like that from a manual, there is certainly not and won't be anything "official" about a company's strategic direction contained in a user manual.
> 
> We haven't seen any new equipment that couldn't serve clients for six years. The only difference with the HS17 is that it doesn't output video, but like the HR34/44/54, it is designed to serve clients. So I think it is pretty safe to infer client/server is where they have been going since 2011 and will continue going. Actually that's probably been their plan far longer, since they showed off a forerunner of the HR34 years earlier.
> 
> An IMHO more interesting question for a lot of people here that the manual does shed some light on is whether it will be permitted to mix HS17s and other stuff like HR24s. Since the manual mentions use of both RVU and MRV in conjunction with the HS17, and talks about the need for "11 available tuners" to connect an HS17, it has clearly not been written from the perspective of the HS17 not working with other equipment. It does not mention the possibility of another 'server' device that can have clients like an HR34/44/54. So I expect you will have to trade in your Genie to get the Genie Air, but you'll be able to keep your HR24s etc. I still think the talk we're hearing about needing a second dish for the HS17 is a condition applied only to those testing it to reduce variables, and won't be the policy when it is officially rolled out nationwide. But that's just a guess, and the language in the manual could always change if Directv has changed their mind on that.
> 
> The other open question is how long you'll be able to get standalone receivers and DVRs. Even if they don't allow you to get them along with an HS17, will they let you get them for an RV? Or will you need to bring your HS17 and a client from home, or get a second account with its own HS17 + client, for the RV? While I think those who are whining about having "another box" with the HS17 are complaining about nothing, it isn't that big, but in an RV where space is at a premium it may be more of a concern. Though the wireless capability would be nice if they don't have coax where they want their TV.


That would be cool if they would let you use the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 with the HS-17. If they did that I wonder if those boxes could share the HS-17 tuners and you could set a recording from the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 on the HS-17?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I sure wish this had Sports Bar Mode. It would be perfect for March Madness. If only we could use the Hopper 3 with D*.


----------



## JosephB

TheRatPatrol said:


> If only we could use the Hopper 3 with D*.


You're telling me. We would've been better off those years ago if DirecTV and Dish had been allowed to merge. DirecTV has so much more bandwidth and better HD coverage, but Dish's equipment is better by far.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> ...
> 
> The catch is that you may not be able to have two on a SWM LNB. *If it refuses to work without at least 11 tuners (or 15 when connected to a reverse band SWM)* and doesn't provide a way to disable some, you'd need a legacy LNB and Digital SWM 30 switch to handle two. ...


Are you referring to a possible future update?

As P. Smith recently points out back in post #1077.

Scrounging from the manual, so far the HS17 takes 11 tuners with any digital SWM LNB or ext. module, Reverse Band capable or not.

The purpose of tuners 12 - 15 is still unknown...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> That would be cool if they would let you use the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 with the HS-17. If they did that I wonder if those boxes could share the HS-17 tuners and you could set a recording from the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 on the HS-17?


I would not expect the HS-17 to be used with a Genie until DIRECTV routinely allows multiple Genies on an account.


----------



## Bill Broderick

JosephB said:


> You're telling me. We would've been better off those years ago if DirecTV and Dish had been allowed to merge. DirecTV has so much more bandwidth and better HD coverage, but Dish's equipment is better by far.


I don't think that anyone who was a customer of XM or Sirius would argue that either service is better since they were allowed to merge. They are still operating as two separate services. But, without competition, the need for technical innovation and improved programming has ceased to exist.

I don't see any reason that things would be different with a merged DirecTV / Dish.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> I would not expect the HS-17 to be used with a Genie until DIRECTV routinely allows multiple Genies on an account.


I wouldn't care about having the HS-17 with the HR-44. Just having the HS-17 with the HR-24, H-24 and H-25.


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> The HS17 has an eSATA port, why have that if you aren't going to be allowed to plug in an external drive?


the DTV wording is so ambiguous !


> Has internal storage of 2TB with expansion capability.


 - seems to me DTV will use same scheme - REPLACE internal by external HDD.

Do you noted - new wireless C61 is coming:


> DIRECTV RVU
> clients
> C31, C41, C41W, C51, C61K, *C61W* client


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> or the lack of AM21 support in the HS17 is


This is official? You won't be able to plug an AM21 into the HS17? Not sure there is much point in releasing a new OTA solution that's not ATSC 3.0 at this point since that's so close. The standard I mean, not content .


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> You're telling me. We would've been better off those years ago if DirecTV and Dish had been allowed to merge. DirecTV has so much more bandwidth and better HD coverage, but Dish's equipment is better by far.


1/2 Like, 1/2 Dislike

A DirecTV / Dish merger would have been a disaster for us. DirecTV would have been the alpha male and thrown out anything Dish... including that whole part about not ripping people off on cost .

Dish giveth while DirecTV taketh away:

1) OTA support
2) Netflix support
3) Better, more practical hardware
4) Media Sharing
5) Decent remotes
6) Trick play in guides / menus


----------



## Bill Broderick

SledgeHammer said:


> This is official? You won't be able to plug an AM21 into the HS17? Not sure there is much point in releasing a new OTA solution that's not ATSC 3.0 at this point since that's so close. The standard I mean, not content .


If you consider the Product Manual to be "official", then yes it is. Page 13 of the manual says that the HS17 is not "AM21 Compatible".


----------



## slice1900

James Long said:


> I would not expect the HS-17 to be used with a Genie until DIRECTV routinely allows multiple Genies on an account.


I bet they will allow multiple HS17s, but not HS17 + old school Genie since the old Genies won't be using the HS17's newer method of associating with clients. That newer method hopefully fixes the problems past CE testers have found when they have two 'servers' on the same network, which would allow them to support two HS17s on an account. Like CraigerM, I think most people here don't care about having a HS17 + old Genie but will care about having an HS17 along with their older HR2x/H2x, or having two HS17s.

Rumor has it they won't allow anything but clients to be used with the HS17 - and Scott's source seemed to confirm it - but the manual appears to dispute that. I still think they are only enforcing that during testing. If you think about it, almost everyone who would be testing the HS17 already has a Genie, and they don't want the testers chasing issues caused by having the HS17 and Genie "fighting" over the clients. Having a separate dish for the HS17 and its clients avoids all those issues, so any problems found are sure to be ones real customers may encounter that need to be addressed.


----------



## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> I was wondering about this regarding the HR54 as well ...
> 
> Do the non-RB DSWM-13 module or the 3D1 and 3D2 digital LNBs cause the two additional transponder bonding tuners 6 and 7, on the HR54 to be enabled and assigned SWM channels?
> 
> Don't know why DIRECTV would write the code for the HR54 or HS17 in such a way since transponder bonding is only intended for the RB.
> 
> Or at least I thought...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


If you connect a RB LNB the 54 will report as using all seven tuners, if you connect to digital LNB not RB it will use only 5 tuners. Since the HS17 supports 4K I am pretty sure that DIRECTV will require RB LNB on all HS17 installs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> That would be cool if they would let you use the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 with the HS-17. If they did that I wonder if those boxes could share the HS-17 tuners and you could set a recording from the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 on the HS-17?


They might let use use stand alone DVRs, but they won't be able to schedule to the HS17 just as it works today with the current Genies. You may be able to schedule with stand alone receivers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JosephB

I think you guys are trying to read too much into a draft of a manual for a device that is still in beta testing. Under what circumstances you'll be able to have other receivers on an account with an HS-17 is a total crapshoot right now, and I wouldn't bet on anything in that manual being correct at the end.


----------



## Bill Broderick

JosephB said:


> I think you guys are trying to read too much into a draft of a manual for a device that is still in beta testing. Under what circumstances you'll be able to have other receivers on an account with an HS-17 is a total crapshoot right now, and I wouldn't bet on anything in that manual being correct at the end.


This assumption isn't coming from the manual. It's coming from the Beta test, which supposedly isn't allowing non-clients as part of the test.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## west99999

Written policy I saw on it said nothing but clients would be allowed on the account. Maybe thats during beta but my guess is they will do away with legacy equipment completely and not allow them in conjunction with the Genie2.


----------



## Bigg

They're going to have to at least have something like an H25 around for hotels, sports bars, SMTAV systems, etc. The commercial accounts are a BIG deal for DirecTV, so they can't just hang up on those. Those applications, however, have no need for 4k for the forseeable future, so the existing H25 design is probably fine. I'm not sure about the HR24. They can't they allow multiple HR54s if all but the first don't have clients? That way they would just be a juiced up version of an HR24?



inkahauts said:


> One I don't see the picture quality of an SD channel being better on hvec vs mpeg4. The improvement on mpeg4 is because it's no longer bit starved. So there's not much room for improvement after that.


That's not what I referring to. I was referring to higher resolution. SD content looks better on an HD channels than an SD channel in most cases. I think HD sources will look better on a 4k channel than they do now, as they will be run at much higher bitrates, and have high quality upscalers running on them at the broadcaster's studio.



slice1900 said:


> If you add up (HS17 + 7 clients) x 2 you get 16 DECA nodes, the DECA limit. Surely 14 tuners / TVs is enough for even dbstalk power users


Couldn't you bridge multiple DECA networks via Ethernet to get a virtually unlimited number of DECA nodes? So the limitation is really software for the boxes. What is the current limit? 10 boxes? 12?


----------



## CraigerM

Maybe we will know more about what the HS-17 can do if its officially announced at the DTV Revolution Conference don't forget it starts Monday.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> They're going to have to at least have something like an H25 around for hotels, sports bars, SMTAV systems, etc. The commercial accounts are a BIG deal for DirecTV, so they can't just hang up on those. Those applications, however, have no need for 4k for the forseeable future, so the existing H25 design is probably fine.


I'd rather use clients than H25s. Clients are smaller, and you have more networking options - wireless and cat5 w/DECA at the TV. I already have coax everywhere, but more flexibility is always welcome. I wouldn't choose a TV because of RVU because it would probably stop getting updated and become useless after 2-3 years, but if I bought a new TV that happened to have RVU I'd use it until it stopped working.

There's no reason they can't phase out the H25 on commercial accounts, and start pushing HS17 + clients. They've already taken the first baby step with that abomination of a 4K solution using an HR54 + 4K client per TV. Assuming commercial accounts can use HS17s as I expect, I'll be picking up HS17 and a couple clients to fool around with. I used to consider OTA vital, but since my local stations now have three subchannels each the OTA picture quality is no better than what I get over Directv, so the only time OTA really matters is during rain fade. That's not enough to make me want to stick with my now 10 year old H20s forever.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> Maybe we will know more about what the HS-17 can do if its officially announced at the DTV Revolution Conference don't forget it starts Monday.


Perhaps, but I haven't seen the usual suspects (Stuart/Scott) mention they are going to the conference. Maybe they have and I missed it, but if no one reports back here or the other site what they saw, we won't know what they might have announced even if it wasn't supposed to be kept secret.

I don't think the Revolution conference puts out press releases or officially announces products, it is intended for insiders like dealers and partners, not the public/press.


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> They're going to have to at least have something like an H25 around for hotels, sports bars, SMTAV systems, etc. The commercial accounts are a BIG deal for DirecTV, so they can't just hang up on those. Those applications, however, have no need for 4k for the forseeable future, so the existing H25 design is probably fine. I'm not sure about the HR24. They can't they allow multiple HR54s if all but the first don't have clients? That way they would just be a juiced up version of an HR24?
> 
> That's not what I referring to. I was referring to higher resolution. SD content looks better on an HD channels than an SD channel in most cases. I think HD sources will look better on a 4k channel than they do now, as they will be run at much higher bitrates, and have high quality upscalers running on them at the broadcaster's studio.
> 
> Couldn't you bridge multiple DECA networks via Ethernet to get a virtually unlimited number of DECA nodes? So the limitation is really software for the boxes. What is the current limit? 10 boxes? 12?


I think you are missing the biggest reason why SD content looks better on Hi Definition channels than SD channels. It's because the SD channels are that bit starved and over compressed. If they just made them quality SD compression with mpeg4 it won't really look much different than SD content on an Hi Definition channel. You can't make a channel better than its source material. It's amazing how much you can screw up or make a signal look incredible just using different compressions while holding the same resolutions.

You don't really gain anything using an Hi Definition channel for SD content if the SD channel is producing an image at the highest quality it can. I'd have to check but I believe there are a couple SD mpeg4 channels you can see that might show you how big a difference just going to annoy overly compressed moeg4 SD channel can do.

As for an Hi Definition content being scaled and compressed different for a 4k channel i doubt it'll be much different than what your tvs internal scaler does today. They wouldn't arbitrarily up the bit rates and such. They'd use the hvec compression format only to make the channels take up less space than mpeg4 versions so you'd gain nothing.

Just look at mpeg2 Hi Definition vs mpeg4 Hi Definition. Dtv converted to mpeg4 because they didn't have the bandwidth to get as good a quality as they could on mpeg4 as they where getting on mpeg2 due to bandwidth issues.

It looked better because mpeg2 was over compressed. Not because they couldn't get as good a quality out of it. The best Hi Definition signals I have ever seen where mpeg2. I actually have a special device (hard drive with video output for commercial demonstrations) with test mpeg2 material on it that is unbelievable and better than anything broadcast by anyone today in hd. It's better because everyone wants to fit more stuff in today and so they compress a bit more.

I semi ponder if dtv will somday come out with a replacement for the h25 that will be 4k capable and enough ram to do on demand. And have it geared towards hotels.

Moca has a limit of 16 nodes. It's the nature of the technology. But sure you can bridge multiple deca clouds and expand. It's not supported by DIRECTV but it can be done.


----------



## slice1900

How is bridging multiple DECA clouds via ethernet not supported by Directv? Pretty sure they have to because they obviously have plenty of commercial accounts with more than 16 DECA devices that they support with the iPad app.

Bigg - there's no limit on the number of DECA devices, the limit of 10 or 12 is the number of DVRs. While you're right that they can be bridged the 'math' I was talking about was convenient as it is hard to imagine many residential installs that would need more than two HS17s either for number of TVs, number of tuners, or redundancy for those worried about a hard drive dying and taking out all their recordings.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> How is bridging multiple DECA clouds via ethernet not supported by Directv? Pretty sure they have to because they obviously have plenty of commercial accounts with more than 16 DECA devices that they support with the iPad app.
> 
> Bigg - there's no limit on the number of DECA devices, the limit of 10 or 12 is the number of DVRs. While you're right that they can be bridged the 'math' I was talking about was convenient as it is hard to imagine many residential installs that would need more than two HS17s either for number of TVs, number of tuners, or redundancy for those worried about a hard drive dying and taking out all their recordings.


I'm talking about residential bridges deca clouds. I've never seen one thing that says they officially support it, even though there's several ways to do it and do it very well.


----------



## slice1900

I imagine they would much rather support two SWM16s bridged with a CCK on each than with diplexers. While VOS' diplexer solution was a pretty nice technical achievement, using two CCKs is much simpler, something all installers would understand, and avoids the need for calculating loss on a spreadsheet to stay within spec.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> I imagine they would much rather support two SWM16s bridged with a CCK on each than with diplexers. While VOS' diplexer solution was a pretty nice technical achievement, using two CCKs is much simpler, something all installers would understand, and avoids the need for calculating loss on a spreadsheet to stay within spec.


While true I've still never heard of DIRECTV supporting that. Have you? In residential.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> I imagine they would much rather support two SWM16s bridged with a CCK on each than with diplexers. While VOS' diplexer solution was a pretty nice technical achievement, using two CCKs is much simpler, something all installers would understand, and avoids the need for calculating loss on a spreadsheet to stay within spec.


Right, using two DECAs is DIRECTV current approach.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> I'd rather use clients than H25s. Clients are smaller, and you have more networking options - wireless and cat5 w/DECA at the TV.


Clients aren't going to work in a lot of situations, like for hotels. Maybe in a sports bar.



inkahauts said:


> I think you are missing the biggest reason why SD content looks better on Hi Definition channels than SD channels. It's because the SD channels are that bit starved and over compressed.


Absolutely true. I may not have been clear before. But the same would hold true for putting HD on a 4k channel, as today's HD channels are pretty heavily compressed, so the 4k channel with HD content will look somewhere inbetween an HD channel and true 4k content on a 4k channel. Also, you have situations like ESPN. If they can produce in 1080i/p, then the 4k channel would look far better than the 720p HD channel.



> I semi ponder if dtv will somday come out with a replacement for the h25 that will be 4k capable and enough ram to do on demand. And have it geared towards hotels.


Not sure hotels need 4k. It's not like it's going to look that different on a 40" TV, and today you're lucky to get HD on most channels, as a lot of hotels have crappy cable with mostly SD. The good setups use DirecTV so it's HD.



slice1900 said:


> How is bridging multiple DECA clouds via ethernet not supported by Directv? Pretty sure they have to because they obviously have plenty of commercial accounts with more than 16 DECA devices that they support with the iPad app.


True. Do they do this with residential installs as well if you have, say, an HR54/44, and a bunch of HR2xs?


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> Clients aren't going to work in a lot of situations, like for hotels. Maybe in a sports bar.
> 
> Absolutely true. I may not have been clear before. But the same would hold true for putting HD on a 4k channel, as today's HD channels are pretty heavily compressed, so the 4k channel with HD content will look somewhere inbetween an HD channel and true 4k content on a 4k channel. Also, you have situations like ESPN. If they can produce in 1080i/p, then the 4k channel would look far better than the 720p HD channel.
> 
> Not sure hotels need 4k. It's not like it's going to look that different on a 40" TV, and today you're lucky to get HD on most channels, as a lot of hotels have crappy cable with mostly SD. The good setups use DirecTV so it's HD.
> 
> True. Do they do this with residential installs as well if you have, say, an HR54/44, and a bunch of HR2xs?


Someplace we probably differ... the SD content is DIRECTV's fault for their compression. I believe they receive much better signals. I don't think that's an issue with Hi Definition. Anything that doesn't look great there is probably the source in the first place imho. I could be wrong but DIRECTV hd is pretty dang good and especially on my locals they have so many dang sub channels I can't see DIRECTV being any cause for signals not being great. Also they haven't shoved more channels into the bandwidth just to make more channels Hi Definition. They did so that for SD.

As for espn, never happening. They will never waste the time or money on 1080. They will sooner have 4k or 720. That's it. They aren't going to change that now. Neither will anyone else imho. There's no reason for them to make that tiny jump for millions. It does nothing for them. 4k they can get something out of that though.

And I should have said hotels and bars etc. I believe the votes could big time benifit from full Video On Demand capabilities and I see no reason to make more than one single tuner box going forward. So make it 4k so it also works for bars etc. and even homes if the market is there.


----------



## Bigg

The more resolution you transmit in with the higher the bitrate, the better it looks. 4K UHD BDs look better than regular BDs, even when the source material is 2k. My point was if ESPN has a 4k channel, and an event is not 4k on the 4k channel, it may be upscaled 1080, which would be WAY better than 720p, which is looking pretty lousy these days.

With 4k, you have the tp bonding issue, which causes all sorts of problems, unless you can just disable it and use it as an HD box.


----------



## inkahauts

QUOTE="Bigg, post: 3462822, member: 497244"]The more resolution you transmit in with the higher the bitrate, the better it looks. 4K UHD BDs look better than regular BDs, even when the source material is 2k. My point was if ESPN has a 4k channel, and an event is not 4k on the 4k channel, it may be upscaled 1080, which would be WAY better than 720p, which is looking pretty lousy these days.

With 4k, you have the tp bonding issue, which causes all sorts of problems, unless you can just disable it and use it as an HD box.[/QUOTE]

Your first sentence is 100% true when your source material is the cause of the higher resolution.

You however are probably missing the problem with your using upscaled 4k blurays example. The quality on them is high because they have no time constraints. They don't do that transfer on the fly live, so they can get the highest quality possible scale. You cant do that at directv for signals coming in, its just not possible. Real time cant save as much bandwidth as taking your time to do it at the highest quality possible.

More bandwidth available does not automatically mean better picture quality in and of itself.

Trying to upscale that much could easily result in a poorer picture in the long run being done by directv, and not from the source. If ESPN launches a 4k channel, they wont send directv a 720 signal (and they will never have a 1080 signal of any kind) and tell them to upscale it for the channel, they will send directv a signal already upscaled. Their equipment would be totally different.

Plus, have you noticed, directv does not scale a single channel that I know of. I have never even heard of them doing that actually. And scaling is done in the home by the hardware. They strictly compress the signals they recieve into a mpeg format they feel gives them the best picture quality for the bandwidth they have available.

Also, again, only someone with a c61k can play anything in 4jk, so there's zero reason for them to scale everything to that format anyway, not enough people have 4k to warrant that kind of expense. Plus they won't ever want to waste bandwidth and money upscaling a channel (which they would need all kinds of permission to do anyway) when its not ever going to have any true 4k signals. so only channels that are 4k from the source will ever exsits IMHO.

ANd not sure what you are refering to with the bonding problem? what bonding problem?


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> Clients aren't going to work in a lot of situations, like for hotels. Maybe in a sports bar.


Why wouldn't clients work in a hotel? Seems like a client is MUCH better and more flexible solution than a receiver for a hotel. Receivers require SWM, which uses higher frequencies meaning shorter runs. Clients use DECA at sub 700 MHz frequencies, i.e. the same frequencies they had their cabling plant originally designed for. They could also use cat5 (either with a DECA to convert it back or a model with an RJ45 jack) or use TVs with RVU built in. Even wireless might be an option if all else failed for certain 'problem' rooms with wiring issues that would require tearing up walls to fix.

Not sure what you think would be the downside of clients in hotels. Assuming they modified the software a bit so each client had its own list of recordings, and an easy way to reset back to defaults when a guest checks out (they already modify receiver software for current hotel offerings) they could allow guests to record a program while they were out to watch later.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> The more resolution you transmit in with the higher the bitrate, the better it looks. 4K UHD BDs look better than regular BDs, even when the source material is 2k. My point was if ESPN has a 4k channel, and an event is not 4k on the 4k channel, it may be upscaled 1080, which would be WAY better than 720p, which is looking pretty lousy these days.
> 
> With 4k, you have the tp bonding issue, which causes all sorts of problems, unless you can just disable it and use it as an HD box.


Why in the world would Directv waste bandwidth upscaling lower resolution content? That makes no sense at all! If you wanted a better picture while waiting for 4K to arrive, maybe they could re-broadcast the most popular HD channels on reverse band. Take them in the form received from the provider without further compression, and transcode them into HEVC so you can fit more of them in the available space. You'd need a C61K to handle the HEVC decode, and reverse band LNB of course.

You wouldn't get a better picture if Directv upscaled that 720p high-quality HD version to 4K. Your 4K TV does that automatically, and if you don't think it does a good enough job you can always buy a dedicated video processor. Directv using their own video processor on their end to waste several times the bandwidth for the same result would accomplish nothing.

I wouldn't hold my breath for this though, because the audience of something like that is too small, and might even sabotage their chances of providers introducing true 4K channels.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> Why wouldn't clients work in a hotel? Seems like a client is MUCH better and more flexible solution than a receiver for a hotel. Receivers require SWM, which uses higher frequencies meaning shorter runs. Clients use DECA at sub 700 MHz frequencies, i.e. the same frequencies they had their cabling plant originally designed for. They could also use cat5 (either with a DECA to convert it back or a model with an RJ45 jack) or use TVs with RVU built in. Even wireless might be an option if all else failed for certain 'problem' rooms with wiring issues that would require tearing up walls to fix.
> 
> Not sure what you think would be the downside of clients in hotels. Assuming they modified the software a bit so each client had its own list of recordings, and an easy way to reset back to defaults when a guest checks out (they already modify receiver software for current hotel offerings) they could allow guests to record a program while they were out to watch later.


But wasn't it the DECA requirements, which an RVU client uses, and its need for bi-directional communication to the furthest receiver on a string that was the limiting factor for the number of living units which could be served in a DRE's "loop-through" topology?

Or are you saying hotels would need to use or convert to a "homerun" topology like with residential installs to use the HS17 + clients, as I didn't think a homerun topology was practical for a hotel environment.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## JosephB

HoTat2 said:


> But wasn't it the DECA requirements, which an RVU client uses, and its need for bi-directional communication to the furthest receiver on a string that was the limiting factor for the number of living units which could be served in a DRE's "loop-through" topology?
> 
> Or are you saying hotels would need to use or convert to a "homerun" topology like with residential installs to use the HS17 + clients, as I didn't think a homerun topology was practical for a hotel environment.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


If they wanted to switch to clients for hotels or other types of commercial installations, I could very easily see them add an Ethernet equipped client. Lots of hotels and of course just about any other type of commercial establishment likely has Ethernet in the walls (and in the case of hotels, a lot of them installed it for internet, and now just offer wireless only, so the ethernet is unused)


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> But wasn't it the DECA requirements, which an RVU client uses, and its need for bi-directional communication to the furthest receiver on a string that was the limiting factor for the number of living units which could be served in a DRE's "loop-through" topology?
> 
> Or are you saying hotels would need to use or convert to a "homerun" topology like with residential installs to use the HS17 + clients, as I didn't think a homerun topology was practical for a hotel environment.


The current DRE "loop through" uses DECA and SWM, and supports 13 H25s in ~300 ft I believe. It was limited by the DECA loss, so you'd get the same thing here with 13 clients. Or 0 clients if the hotel has RVU TVs.

As JosephB alludes to, the really big win would be for newer hotels that have cat5 wiring available to the rooms. Then they don't care about the limitations of how their coax was wired, because they will no longer need it, unlike with the current DRE which uses H25 & SWM.

Probably any hotel wired in the past 20 years will have cat5, since they'd run it for the phones. 100 Mb ethernet only needs four wires of the eight cat5 has, so even if they keep the room phones around (wonder how much longer those will last in the age of cell phones?) they can still get an ethernet jack. Might be on the wrong wall though...


----------



## peds48

The notion that the hotel market (DRE, not DIRECTV Plus) will use clients is ridiculous. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

inkahauts said:


> Your first sentence is 100% true when your source material is the cause of the higher resolution.
> 
> You however are probably missing the problem with your using upscaled 4k blurays example. The quality on them is high because they have no time constraints. They don't do that transfer on the fly live, so they can get the highest quality possible scale. You cant do that at directv for signals coming in, its just not possible. Real time cant save as much bandwidth as taking your time to do it at the highest quality possible.


Yes, real-time encoding is harder. I'm not saying it would be 4k UHD BD quality, but comparing online to online or offline to offline, upscaling to a higher resolution will yield better quality, assuming you don't bit starve it in the process.



> Trying to upscale that much could easily result in a poorer picture in the long run being done by directv, and not from the source. If ESPN launches a 4k channel, they wont send directv a 720 signal (and they will never have a 1080 signal of any kind) and tell them to upscale it for the channel, they will send directv a signal already upscaled. Their equipment would be totally different.


I'd wager that ESPN would do a better job than your box or TV. But you're missing the context. The context of this discussion is that a channel with some 4k content would still provide marginal benefits to non-4k content during the remaining time when 4k content isn't available, and huge benefits if the source content could be easily produced at 1080i/p (not sure if this is the case).



> ANd not sure what you are refering to with the bonding problem? what bonding problem?


For hotels with SWiM-13s. You'd have to go to SWiM-26s to support an H26 box with 4k support, for no practical benefit in a hotel environment.



slice1900 said:


> Why in the world would Directv waste bandwidth upscaling lower resolution content? That makes no sense at all! If you wanted a better picture while waiting for 4K to arrive, maybe they could re-broadcast the most popular HD channels on reverse band. Take them in the form received from the provider without further compression, and transcode them into HEVC so you can fit more of them in the available space. You'd need a C61K to handle the HEVC decode, and reverse band LNB of course.


1. The context of the discussion was non-4k content on a 4k channel. So ESPN 4k might have a couple of actual 4k events per week plus 4k studio content (who cares), and everything else would be scaled. That everything else would still look slightly better than the HD channel.

2. In the situation described in number 1, if ESPN could/does produce in 1080i/p for 720p transmission, it could be scaled from 1080i/p to 2160p instead of down to 720p, yielding the much higher quality that you see today on a good 1080i channel.



slice1900 said:


> Might be on the wrong wall though...


That's the problem. For hotels, DirecTV has to conform to what's already there, which is why they have the SWiM 13's and H25s. Maybe they will offer other options, but I don't see that technology (local DBS tuner for HD) going away anytime soon. Hotels don't need 4k. I suppose they could add VOD, but that would suck some serious bandwidth that most hotels don't have, unless they did a local VOD server that sucked stuff off the satellite or downloaded in the early morning hours and used DECA within the building.


----------



## James Long

slice1900 said:


> Probably any hotel wired in the past 20 years will have cat5, since they'd run it for the phones. 100 Mb ethernet only needs four wires of the eight cat5 has, so even if they keep the room phones around (wonder how much longer those will last in the age of cell phones?) they can still get an ethernet jack. Might be on the wrong wall though...


I would not recommend cat5 for anything ... perhaps use it as pull string for cat6. The standard I followed a decade ago was cat3 for voice and cat5 for data. Five years ago I would have accepted cat5 for voice and cat6 for data. Now I order cat6 for voice and data.

I do not like the idea of using cat6 for TV ... but at least it has enough bandwidth. Using cat5 and considering using two pairs of the cable, mixing a likely analog phone line on the same cable? Not on my watch. If one is trying to deliver crappy SD TV to the rooms one can do that through the existing coax systems. I would not consider cat5 to be an improvement.

Sorry for the rant ... but I am past the point in my life where I would consider using cat5.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> For hotels with SWiM-13s. You'd have to go to SWiM-26s to support an H26 box with 4k support, for no practical benefit in a hotel environment.


Wait, who said anything about 4K in hotels? I don't see that happening ever, except maybe a few Vegas luxury suites.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> 1. The context of the discussion was non-4k content on a 4k channel. So ESPN 4k might have a couple of actual 4k events per week plus 4k studio content (who cares), and everything else would be scaled. That everything else would still look slightly better than the HD channel.
> 
> 2. In the situation described in number 1, if ESPN could/does produce in 1080i/p for 720p transmission, it could be scaled from 1080i/p to 2160p instead of down to 720p, yielding the much higher quality that you see today on a good 1080i channel.


That's no different than what the situation was with HD. Still is, for some HD channels that show old SD programs.

I don't know if ESPN has the capability to produce anything in 1080p60, but they already made the decision they think 720p is better than 1080i so they will not produce anything in 1080i i.e. 1080p30.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Wait, who said anything about 4K in hotels? I don't see that happening ever, except maybe a few Vegas luxury suites.


I suggest directv should make one last receiver, stand alone. Make it 4k as well as hd, and give it enough memory to handle on on demand features. And uyse that for hotels and bars etc, so it could do 4k if needed (bars) but it wouldn't be required. Also make it very small.


----------



## Bigg

James Long said:


> I would not recommend cat5 for anything


Well actually, Cat5 is good for gigabit, and two of the four pairs will do 100mbps Ethernet alongside 2 telephone lines, even though that is an out-of-spec solution. That 100mbps Ethernet is good for 4k video.



slice1900 said:


> Wait, who said anything about 4K in hotels? I don't see that happening ever, except maybe a few Vegas luxury suites.


It was mentioned a few posts back. Agreed, there is no need for it.



slice1900 said:


> That's no different than what the situation was with HD. Still is, for some HD channels that show old SD programs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if ESPN has the capability to produce anything in 1080p60, but they already made the decision they think 720p is better than 1080i so they will not produce anything in 1080i i.e. 1080p30.
> 
> 
> 
> Right. The point of the argument is that even if there was only a few events a week in 4k, you'd get those few events plus a really good upscaled copy of everything else. Yeah, unfortunately, my sense is that their entire pipeline is 720p60 equipment, so they're stuck with the inferior format now.
Click to expand...


----------



## carl6

James Long said:


> Using cat5 and considering using two pairs of the cable, mixing a likely analog phone line on the same cable? Not on my watch.


Not sure I object to the use of Cat5e so much, but I absolutely agree about not mixing voice and data (or data and data) in an ethernet run. That's just wrong and can result in so many manifestations of poor performance that are hard to identify or correct (if you don't know someone did mix lines).


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> I would not recommend cat5 for anything ... perhaps use it as pull string for cat6. The standard I followed a decade ago was cat3 for voice and cat5 for data. Five years ago I would have accepted cat5 for voice and cat6 for data. Now I order cat6 for voice and data.
> 
> I do not like the idea of using cat6 for TV ... but at least it has enough bandwidth. Using cat5 and considering using two pairs of the cable, mixing a likely analog phone line on the same cable? Not on my watch. If one is trying to deliver crappy SD TV to the rooms one can do that through the existing coax systems. I would not consider cat5 to be an improvement.
> 
> Sorry for the rant ... but I am past the point in my life where I would consider using cat5.


Cat5? Agree. Cat5e is perfectly fine for gigabit. That being said, 2.5Gb and 5Gb Ethernet is around the corner (like 2017 - 2018), so you might as well pull Cat6 to be future proof.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> I suggest directv should make one last receiver, stand alone. Make it 4k as well as hd, and give it enough memory to handle on on demand features. And uyse that for hotels and bars etc, so it could do 4k if needed (bars) but it wouldn't be required. Also make it very small.


Going by DirecTVs new pricing that they are pushing (All Included), they clearly don't give a rats behind about 1,2 or 3 TV households anymore since they charge the same for 1 TV or 4.

People use OnDemand? I still don't get DirecTVs pricing on PPVs and OnDemand. Redbox, Netflix and Amazon are a fraction of the price. I'd invest in a faster internet connection before shelling out $7 for a 24 hr rental. My mind is still officially blown that people still pay $15/hr for softcore porn lol.


----------



## inkahauts

DIRECTV has a lot of free stuff on demand. I don't use it for ppv. Just free stuff.

Bars and hotels are big business and could benifit most from a non DVR.


----------



## dpeters11

SledgeHammer said:


> Cat5? Agree. Cat5e is perfectly fine for gigabit. That being said, 2.5Gb and 5Gb Ethernet is around the corner (like 2017 - 2018), so you might as well pull Cat6 to be future proof.


Yeah, if you're running cable now, I see no reason to go cat5e. If it's already there, really not much call for it to be replaced with cat6.


----------



## Bill Broderick

SledgeHammer said:


> People use OnDemand? I still don't get DirecTVs pricing on PPVs and OnDemand. Redbox, Netflix and Amazon are a fraction of the price. I'd invest in a faster internet connection before shelling out $7 for a 24 hr rental. My mind is still officially blown that people still pay $15/hr for softcore porn lol.


Don't confuse On Demand with Pay Per View. There are On Demand versions of many shows on many channels. If you miss a show, and there are no scheduled broadcasts of that show in the future, you can often download (or stream) that show to your DVR and watch it for free. Sometimes, the only "cost" is that some On Demand shows can't be fast forwarded. So, you can't skip commercials.

I had a friend tell me about a few good shows that were already half way through their season, that I was able to catch up on, only because of On Demand. In the past, I would have needed to wait for them to be released to DVD or a streaming service before I could have caught up.


----------



## slice1900

I wasn't claiming that cat5/cat5e were the best solutions, just that hotels may have that already in the wall. While I agree that running voice over one pair while running fast ethernet over two other pairs isn't a great idea, in practice it wouldn't matter much. 1) room phones are rarely used now and 2) many are VOIP which would mean you'd run two fast ethernet connections on one cable.

Running two fast ethernet connections over a single cat5/cat5e cable is not a problem - it is no different than having two cat5 cables running alongside each other in the same bundle because they are unshielded cables.

The idea wasn't to get in a debate over what type of cable you should run today, but to point out that hotels have a lot more options if they used clients instead of H25. Assuming Directv uses clients in the next version of DRE, which wouldn't surprise me at all since it looks very unlikely there will ever be a new model of standalone receiver.


----------



## CraigerM

I thought we weren't supposed to discuss having an Ethernet port on a client?


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> People use OnDemand? I still don't get DirecTVs pricing on PPVs and OnDemand. Redbox, Netflix and Amazon are a fraction of the price. I'd invest in a faster internet connection before shelling out $7 for a 24 hr rental. My mind is still officially blown that people still pay $15/hr for softcore porn lol.


DIRECTV PPV are more or less inline with similar services such as iTunes, Google, etc.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bill Broderick said:


> Sometimes, the only "cost" is that some On Demand shows can't be fast forwarded. So, you can't skip commercials.


This is exactly why I don't use the service. This is typically the case for most free shows, especially from the broadcast networks. The whole trick pay functionality is disabled. Unusable for me.


----------



## KyL416

That's mostly for things within the 3 day window after it first aired, after that another version goes up with less or no commercials that's also skippable.

VOD also sometimes has in advanced airings of episodes, Showtime frequently does it with their premieres, TBS also did it with the Angie Tribecca binge-a-thon. They also have additional things that might not be in current rotation on the linear channel. (i.e. Freeform On Demand has a selection of past ABC Family shows, Disney Channel On Demand had all previous original movies up for their 100th movie celebration last Spring, HBO On Demand has every season of some of their past original series, etc)

As for recent movies there's multiple windows. It usually goes Theatres -> DVD -> PPV -> Premium Cable -> Basic Cable -> Broadcast. For many studios PPV is now the same day as DVD, while Netflix and similar services have to wait until that Premium window. Same day as DVD PPV is usually more expensive for the first few weeks. Once they reach that premium window the movies are either removed from PPV because a premium channel or another service like Netflix now has the exclusive on demand rights, or they stay up and get reduced in price even more. Once they reach that basic cable window the unedited movie goes back up on demand for a cheaper price.

There's also the rare same day as theatres PPV that's even more expensive. It's mostly limited to independent movies that have a limited release, i.e. the Veronica Mars movie.


----------



## SledgeHammer

peds48 said:


> DIRECTV PPV are more or less inline with similar services such as iTunes, Google, etc.


You can legally buy an entire month of 4K Netflix streaming for less then you can one of those wholesome family movies in the 590s LOL. Normal PPVs are like $7/24 hours now too. Fair disclaimer though... I did the free month of Netflix cuz I wanted some 4K content and imo, that service isn't worth the money as they don't have much 4K content or recent content. Aren't some of the VOD 4K movies like $15 as well?


----------



## Bill Broderick

SledgeHammer said:


> This is exactly why I don't use the service. This is typically the case for most free shows, especially from the broadcast networks. The whole trick pay functionality is disabled. Unusable for me.


So you're better off not having access to a show that you missed, but want to watch? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Watching a show with commercials is not my first choice. But, it sure beats the hell out of not being able to watch that show at all, if I screw up and miss the broadcast version.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bill Broderick said:


> So you're better off not having access to a show that you missed, but want to watch? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
> 
> Watching a show with commercials is not my first choice. But, it sure beats the hell out of not being able to watch that show at all, if I screw up and miss the broadcast version.


? Did I say that. There's plenty of places to watch a TV show without commercials (both legally and "illegally").


----------



## peds48

SledgeHammer said:


> You can legally buy an entire month of 4K Netflix streaming for less then you can one of those wholesome family movies in the 590s LOL. Normal PPVs are like $7/24 hours now too. Fair disclaimer though... I did the free month of Netflix cuz I wanted some 4K content and imo, that service isn't worth the money as they don't have much 4K content or recent content. Aren't some of the VOD 4K movies like $15 as well?


Thing about Netflix is that it takes quite a while to get new releases, same reason why I don't subscribe to them and rather get that movie from iTunes. I only sub to Netflix when they release a new season of the a series that they have that I like such as Narcos.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> I wasn't claiming that cat5/cat5e were the best solutions, just that hotels may have that already in the wall.


You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The existing solution of H25s works just fine via coax with local tuners for hotel installations. If they want to add VOD, they would probably make an H26 to support that type of application. No need to try and invent the wheel here.


----------



## Bigg

peds48 said:


> Thing about Netflix is that it takes quite a while to get new releases, same reason why I don't subscribe to them and rather get that movie from iTunes. I only sub to Netflix when they release a new season of the a series that they have that I like such as Narcos.


Netflix is mostly about original content. They have some licensed stuff, but the original content is what makes Netflix Netflix. I'll binge a lot from Netflix, and then watch nothing for a while. Right now I'm into House of Cards. What an incredible show, and 4k is like icing on the cake. Narcos, Orange is the New Black, and several other shows are really, really good. Their HD looks incredible too.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bigg said:


> Netflix is mostly about original content. They have some licensed stuff, but the original content is what makes Netflix Netflix. I'll binge a lot from Netflix, and then watch nothing for a while. Right now I'm into House of Cards. What an incredible show, and 4k is like icing on the cake. Narcos, Orange is the New Black, and several other shows are really, really good. Their HD looks incredible too.


*Shrug* I couldn't find ANYTHING to watch. I signed up for the trial to watch FH2 and White Rabbit Project and both were awful awful shows. Then I tried watching a Netflix movie, probably one of the worst movies ever made. All I ended up watching was some How I Met Your Mother & That 70's Show repeats. Any movie I searched for either new, recent or old was no where to be found. And I'm not talking about obscure stuff, but mainstream movies. I tried watching that one show with the kids and the govt lab.... yeah, I know everybody loves it, but I didn't lol... nice PQ though.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The existing solution of H25s works just fine via coax with local tuners for hotel installations. If they want to add VOD, they would probably make an H26 to support that type of application. No need to try and invent the wheel here.


With the H25 now six years old, there's no indication Directv will ever introduce a new receiver in the US. So this may not be solving a problem that exists today, but one that could exist eventually.


----------



## James Long

SledgeHammer said:


> Cat5? Agree. Cat5e is perfectly fine for gigabit. That being said, 2.5Gb and 5Gb Ethernet is around the corner (like 2017 - 2018), so you might as well pull Cat6 to be future proof.


Yep ... Cat5e is ok for data. The comment was about hotels that had cat5 installed for phone lines and re-purposing that for data.

I have re-purposed cat5e that was originally installed for voice for data use. But cat5 without the e makes a good pull string for better data cable.


----------



## James Long

slice1900 said:


> With the H25 now six years old, there's no indication Directv will ever introduce a new receiver in the US. So this may not be solving a problem that exists today, but one that could exist eventually.


So DIRECTV would introduce a "C" version of the H25 ... client only using standard coax to connect back to the nearest HS17 server (or a future version of HS17 which would be able to serve more clients but not record).

Here is a concept for a commercial / hotel version of the HS17: Consume as many tuners as can be fed from the LNB/switch. Serve exactly that many clients over cable. Use the hard drive for VOD (in room on demand PPV) and limited trick play (pause, rewind). Use Ethernet between HS17s to share content between devices (if needed) and manage the system.

I like the idea of being able to set recordings in hotel ... if one is going out for the evening and does not want to miss a show they can set a recording. But it would need to be limited. Either the guest would give up their "live" TV tuner if they wanted to record something or only select channels would be able to be recorded. And recordings would need to be managed so they would auto-delete at check out. I can see the value in being able to record.


----------



## dpeters11

SledgeHammer said:


> This is exactly why I don't use the service. This is typically the case for most free shows, especially from the broadcast networks. The whole trick pay functionality is disabled. Unusable for me.


It's useful for me when I have a weather incident, or when our Hearst channel went dark since networks don't re-air programming.


----------



## Bill Broderick

dpeters11 said:


> It's useful for me when I have a weather incident, or when our Hearst channel went dark since networks don't re-air programming.


Yeah. It was huge for me after Hurricane Sandy. I was without power for a week (I stayed at a friend's house for most of it), and was able to recover every show that didn't get recorded during that time.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> *Shrug* I couldn't find ANYTHING to watch. I signed up for the trial to watch FH2 and White Rabbit Project and both were awful awful shows. Then I tried watching a Netflix movie, probably one of the worst movies ever made. All I ended up watching was some How I Met Your Mother & That 70's Show repeats. Any movie I searched for either new, recent or old was no where to be found. And I'm not talking about obscure stuff, but mainstream movies. I tried watching that one show with the kids and the govt lab.... yeah, I know everybody loves it, but I didn't lol... nice PQ though.


Longmire. Easily their best show imho. I'd recommend that one to anyone and everyone. But I still know it's not for everyone. 

I have also found Luke cage and Jessica Jones and daredevil to be good.

They have just about everything disney owned... if you like anything Disney that's great. If not if we'll..

There's a few more I want to try, just haven't gotten to them yet.

I hear house of cards is excellent.

But really Netflix doesn't have a ton of great stuff. Especially recent movies unless it's disney. They can't afford it.

Thy are still speeding towards a cliff. Should be interesting to see if they fall off it or not in a couple more years.


----------



## Bigg

SledgeHammer said:


> *Shrug* I couldn't find ANYTHING to watch. I signed up for the trial to watch FH2 and White Rabbit Project and both were awful awful shows.


I LOVE White Rabbit Project. I guess you're just hard to please!



slice1900 said:


> With the H25 now six years old, there's no indication Directv will ever introduce a new receiver in the US. So this may not be solving a problem that exists today, but one that could exist eventually.


If there is a market for a replacement H25, then they will make one, but for now, the H25 is adequate.



James Long said:


> I have re-purposed cat5e that was originally installed for voice for data use. But cat5 without the e makes a good pull string for better data cable.


It doesn't matter what it was installed for... it's the same cable. Also, Cat5e is the exact same cable as Cat5, it's just tested to slightly higher standards. The whole 5/5e thing is a joke, 5 works fine for gigabit.



James Long said:


> Here is a concept for a commercial / hotel version of the HS17: Consume as many tuners as can be fed from the LNB/switch. Serve exactly that many clients over cable. Use the hard drive for VOD (in room on demand PPV) and limited trick play (pause, rewind). Use Ethernet between HS17s to share content between devices (if needed) and manage the system.


This seems to be WAY over-complicating the situation. Now you'd have to have the VOD loaded on every server. I looked on the DirecTV site, and they already have a local VOD server system for the DRE H25. And if you want DVR capabilities, which would probably never be used anyway, why not just give the new version of the H25 64GB of flash memory on the board? It would be cheap, and would hold a few shows, which is plenty for a hotel use anyway, they are already centrally managed for wiping everything off. It seems to me the H25 will around for a very long time, they will probably just make new revisions of it with identical functionality to drop manufacturing cost over time.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bigg said:


> I LOVE White Rabbit Project. I guess you're just hard to please!


Dude, I'm still watching Quantico ... not that hard to please. I don't think I'll make it to season 3 though, but I think the show will likely get cancelled.

I love the *cast* from MythBusters, and I guess they did say it WOULDN'T be another MythBusters, but it turned out to be a show where they just sat around and told a bunch of goofy stories and made up random criteria to decide which was the least goofy. They rarely tested the stories... they did on a few of them...

I'm looking forward to Prison Break in a few weeks. Hopefully that isn't another season 3/4 debacle. Yikes. Those were bad.


----------



## slice1900

James Long said:


> Yep ... Cat5e is ok for data. The comment was about hotels that had cat5 installed for phone lines and re-purposing that for data.
> 
> I have re-purposed cat5e that was originally installed for voice for data use. But cat5 without the e makes a good pull string for better data cable.


As stated, cat5 works fine for gigabit. And gigabit isn't needed for connecting clients, fast ethernet (100 Mbps) is more than plenty. Few HD channels exceed 10 Mbps, even if you did 4K that's only 30 Mbps.


----------



## slice1900

James Long said:


> So DIRECTV would introduce a "C" version of the H25 ... client only using standard coax to connect back to the nearest HS17 server (or a future version of HS17 which would be able to serve more clients but not record).
> 
> Here is a concept for a commercial / hotel version of the HS17: Consume as many tuners as can be fed from the LNB/switch. Serve exactly that many clients over cable. Use the hard drive for VOD (in room on demand PPV) and limited trick play (pause, rewind). Use Ethernet between HS17s to share content between devices (if needed) and manage the system.
> 
> I like the idea of being able to set recordings in hotel ... if one is going out for the evening and does not want to miss a show they can set a recording. But it would need to be limited. Either the guest would give up their "live" TV tuner if they wanted to record something or only select channels would be able to be recorded. And recordings would need to be managed so they would auto-delete at check out. I can see the value in being able to record.


Well that's pretty much what I was suggesting when I said that there's no reason the HS17 couldn't serve 13 clients, given the appropriate software. And yeah, if you were going to support recordings it would have to use the 'live' tuner, but that would be fine for say recording sports while you are gone for the day, or some favorite show while you're at dinner.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> It seems to me the H25 will around for a very long time, they will probably just make new revisions of it with identical functionality to drop manufacturing cost over time.


Then why haven't they? Are they still even manufacturing it any more, or like the HR24 did they quit making them several years ago and everything you get is a refurb?

Sure, they can drop the cost down but they can never drop the cost down below that of a client - and certainly can't beat the $0 cost of the 'set top' when it is built into an RVU TV.

Not sure why you are so resistant to this possibility. Sure, the H25 solution works fine but if they can make a better solution that's both cheaper and more flexible (coax no longer required, even wires not necessarily required, the ability for guests to record) why wouldn't they? What's the great advantage of an H25 in your mind, other than the fact they already have it today? Why is it so great they should be improving the H25, instead of going to the solution that already has the features you want to add to an H25?


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Then why haven't they? Are they still even manufacturing it any more, or like the HR24 did they quit making them several years ago and everything you get is a refurb?
> 
> Sure, they can drop the cost down but they can never drop the cost down below that of a client - and certainly can't beat the $0 cost of the 'set top' when it is built into an RVU TV.
> 
> Not sure why you are so resistant to this possibility. Sure, the H25 solution works fine but if they can make a better solution that's both cheaper and more flexible (coax no longer required, even wires not necessarily required, the ability for guests to record) why wouldn't they? What's the great advantage of an H25 in your mind, other than the fact they already have it today? Why is it so great they should be improving the H25, instead of going to the solution that already has the features you want to add to an H25?


Is have to ask one thing, at what point does scale enter and make one way or the other more or less suitable for hotels and even bars etc. the more I think about it, the more I think servers and clients might be easier to deal with and maintain.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> Is have to ask one thing, at what point does scale enter and make one way or the other more or less suitable for hotels and even bars etc. the more I think about it, the more I think servers and clients might be easier to deal with and maintain.


The higher the percentage of new installs (across all markets) that use clients, the lower that will use standalone receivers. That increases the cost of manufacturing new receivers, as they either have to pay extra to companies to continue providing the old parts the H25 was originally designed with, or redesign it to use new parts with a small volume over which to amortize those redesign costs.

An extra $50/ea for receivers wouldn't be a big problem for a hotel, but it would push the decision more towards clients for anyone who has a choice.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> Then why haven't they? Are they still even manufacturing it any more?


Yes they are.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> Not sure why you are so resistant to this possibility. Sure, the H25 solution works fine but if they can make a better solution that's both cheaper and more flexible (coax no longer required, even wires not necessarily required, the ability for guests to record) why wouldn't they? What's the great advantage of an H25 in your mind, other than the fact they already have it today? Why is it so great they should be improving the H25, instead of going to the solution that already has the features you want to add to an H25?


The whole client/server model is pretty fiddly compared to just putting a tuner in each room that is effectively independent from the rest of the system. It is possible that they move to a server-based system, but it isn't going to be an HS-17, it's going to be some sort of rackmount system that supports a whole bunch of coax/DECA segments with 13 or 15 devices each, and does not have a wireless component, thus not needing the form factor of the HS17. It just seems like a lot of effort to re-invent the wheel for the application. Right now, a hotel can support hundreds of rooms with H25s and SWiM 13s, and a sports bar can do up to 21 TVs with a SWiM LNB, or as many as they need with multiswitches.



slice1900 said:


> The higher the percentage of new installs (across all markets) that use clients, the lower that will use standalone receivers. That increases the cost of manufacturing new receivers, as they either have to pay extra to companies to continue providing the old parts the H25 was originally designed with, or redesign it to use new parts with a small volume over which to amortize those redesign costs.


A relatively small amount of money to DirecTV to redesign the receivers every 5 years or something for commercial installs would be money well spent for them. The commercial business is huge, and is one area where DirecTV absolutely dominates the field.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> The whole client/server model is pretty fiddly compared to just putting a tuner in each room that is effectively independent from the rest of the system. It is possible that they move to a server-based system, but it isn't going to be an HS-17, it's going to be some sort of rackmount system that supports a whole bunch of coax/DECA segments with 13 or 15 devices each, and does not have a wireless component, thus not needing the form factor of the HS17.


I didn't mean to imply that hotels would use the wireless off the HS17, if they didn't have appropriate coax or cat5 to some rooms. If it was supported at all (which it probably wouldn't be) they'd use a wireless CCK. So I agree the form factor of the HS17 wouldn't be necessary, and a rack mount would be more desirable. Guess we'll see what happens...


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> I didn't mean to imply that hotels would use the wireless off the HS17, if they didn't have appropriate coax or cat5 to some rooms. If it was supported at all (which it probably wouldn't be) they'd use a wireless CCK. So I agree the form factor of the HS17 wouldn't be necessary, and a rack mount would be more desirable. Guess we'll see what happens...


If they were going to try and set something like this up, it would need to be scalable up to hundreds of rooms really easily, either through rackmount units that have a whole bunch of tuners and DECA segments, or some sort of blade design that you could add more segment blades to. I still think doing H25s is the easier bet, and what they will continue to do for the foreseeable future.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> If they were going to try and set something like this up, it would need to be scalable up to hundreds of rooms really easily, either through rackmount units that have a whole bunch of tuners and DECA segments, or some sort of blade design that you could add more segment blades to. I still think doing H25s is the easier bet, and what they will continue to do for the foreseeable future.


Well for that matter they could combine the DSWM13 and HS17 into one unit. Give it six LNB inputs and power on the back, one DECA and one ethernet on the front, and that would easily fit in a single RU height. A full rack could serve 500 rooms.

Using H25s is obviously the path of least resistance, since that's what they're doing now. But I don't see them sticking to that solution forever, especially if they are planning on phasing out standalone receivers in other markets. Client/server is their future, I think they will find a way to get there in every market over the next few years.


----------



## Laxguy

Yes, 4K VoD's are in that ballpark, maybe a tad less for the couple I've watched. 

On the whole, I am very pleased with VoD from DIRECTV®. A few years ago, not so much. 

Thanks, Kyle, for delineating some of the differences.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> Well for that matter they could combine the DSWM13 and HS17 into one unit. Give it six LNB inputs and power on the back, one DECA and one ethernet on the front, and that would easily fit in a single RU height. A full rack could serve 500 rooms.
> 
> Using H25s is obviously the path of least resistance, since that's what they're doing now. But I don't see them sticking to that solution forever, especially if they are planning on phasing out standalone receivers in other markets. Client/server is their future, I think they will find a way to get there in every market over the next few years.


Sure, they could do something like that. I'm thinking a 4U or 5U unit that can take a bunch of blades with the multiswitches and tuners and everything built in. DISH has something sort of like that with their DISH box, although they are a much smaller player in the hotel/MDU market.


----------



## James Long

Bigg said:


> Sure, they could do something like that. I'm thinking a 4U or 5U unit that can take a bunch of blades with the multiswitches and tuners and everything built in. DISH has something sort of like that with their DISH box, although they are a much smaller player in the hotel/MDU market.


----------



## Bigg

Yup. That's a 5RU box.


----------



## slice1900

Yeah, obviously it depends on how fancy you want to get. A decade ago Directv introduced a system for large MDUs called MFH-3, which demodulated every transponder and connected modified tunerless H20s and HR20s (the H20i and HR20i) via ethernet. It died because as technology marched on with newer receivers, adding new satellites etc. it proved too expensive to try to keep up. The MFH-2 system using good old RF distribution and SWM could scale down a lot smaller than MFH-3, so the MFH-3's small volume ended up dooming it.

They could easily a new rev of MFH-3 (MFH-4 if you will) at a far lower cost. A half dozen SWM chips and less than 20 8 tuner chips could demodulate every transponder, even the 36 reverse band tpns they aren't using yet. This time, the headend would be far cheaper and not require expensive upgrades down the road when more satellites were launched. This time, they wouldn't need special equipment to receive the IP streams - that's what clients do. A single box that wouldn't be much larger than that 5U Dish equipment above could handle a hotel or MDU with several thousand clients. Attach a small disk array to it, and you effectively give all those clients "cloud DVR".

Of course, now that AT&T owns them, they could use their vast fiber network to multicast every Directv channel via IP (it would be around 6 Gbps if all those reverse band transponders were in use, not including nationwide locals) and take the whole satellite thing out of the equation. Lots of ways to skin a cat...


----------



## Bigg

Yeah, I'm aware of MFH-3. It was a pretty cool system, but I guess it had fairly limited applications.

Interesting thoughts, but they can't do IP over fiber outside of a property, as their content on DirecTV is licensed for DBS only, not as a cable product. It would be interesting on-property thought with G.Fast, sort of as a new and improved U-Verse, but with DirecTV quality and programming.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> Yeah, obviously it depends on how fancy you want to get. A decade ago Directv introduced a system for large MDUs called MFH-3, which demodulated every transponder and connected modified tunerless H20s and HR20s (the H20i and HR20i) via ethernet. It died because as technology marched on with newer receivers, adding new satellites etc. it proved too expensive to try to keep up. The MFH-2 system using good old RF distribution and SWM could scale down a lot smaller than MFH-3, so the MFH-3's small volume ended up dooming it.
> 
> They could easily a new rev of MFH-3 (MFH-4 if you will) at a far lower cost. A half dozen SWM chips and less than 20 8 tuner chips could demodulate every transponder, even the 36 reverse band tpns they aren't using yet. This time, the headend would be far cheaper and not require expensive upgrades down the road when more satellites were launched. This time, they wouldn't need special equipment to receive the IP streams - that's what clients do. A single box that wouldn't be much larger than that 5U Dish equipment above could handle a hotel or MDU with several thousand clients. Attach a small disk array to it, and you effectively give all those clients "cloud DVR".
> 
> Of course, now that AT&T owns them, they could use their vast fiber network to multicast every Directv channel via IP (it would be around 6 Gbps if all those reverse band transponders were in use, not including nationwide locals) and take the whole satellite thing out of the equation. Lots of ways to skin a cat...


Although from coments of many of the techs. who worked with MFH-3 I noticed at the time, considered the system an "IP disaster" even when it was up to date on all current satellites.

Which I was actually rather disappointed to see happen, because it seemed like a great concept on paper at least, for serving thousands of high rise MDU living units DBS satellite service over IP distribution.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> from coments of many of the techs


were it posted here ?
I'd like to read more about that fiasco...


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> were it posted here ?
> I'd like to read more about that fiasco...


Since the forum switched over, not sure they're there any longer, but I'll try and find some of them. ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> Yeah, I'm aware of MFH-3. It was a pretty cool system, but I guess it had fairly limited applications.
> 
> Interesting thoughts, but they can't do IP over fiber outside of a property, as their content on DirecTV is licensed for DBS only, not as a cable product. It would be interesting on-property thought with G.Fast, sort of as a new and improved U-Verse, but with DirecTV quality and programming.


With DIRECTV now in play, and if it's for commercial applications you never know what they may have negotiated into their contracts. It's possible they can use ip delivery for commercial installs.


----------



## Bigg

inkahauts said:


> With DIRECTV now in play, and if it's for commercial applications you never know what they may have negotiated into their contracts. It's possible they can use ip delivery for commercial installs.


DBS is regulated differently from cable, which is what delivering DirecTV over fiber off-property would be. I'm also not sure what the point would be. Within an MDU, it's for servicing units that couldn't get their own dish installed, otherwise it's just re-inventing the wheel.


----------



## HoTat2

Solid Signal has a review now up on YT ...






Interesting, but the bad news is Stuart confirms NO legacy receivers allowed on the HS17 network. Server and clients only. Bummer .... 

And somewhat expected I guess, but nevertheless disappointing to some for sure.

As with its Genie predecessors, only one HS17 allowed per household so far at least. ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

HoTat2 said:


> Solid Signal has a review now up on YT ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, but the bad news is Stuart confirms NO legacy receivers allowed on the HS17 network. Server and clients only. Bummer ....
> 
> And somewhat expected I guess, but nevertheless disappointing to some for sure.
> 
> As with its Genie predecessors, only one HS17 allowed per household so far at least. ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Wow this thing could be out really soon and also confirms you can order from them and self install


----------



## CraigerM

I still don't like that you can't have the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 hooked up to it.


----------



## slice1900

After so many years of supporting hardware practically forever, and only obsoleting MPG receivers from the mid 90s a couple years ago, it is strange that they aren't letting this mix with other equipment and effectively obsoleting everything else. I'm sure some of those testing it will have at least tried it to see what happens, maybe when they can talk they might be able to shed some light. Or maybe AT&T are just being jerks 

I'm a bit surprised that Solid Signal expects to have it in Q2, I wonder if that means the national release is getting pushed up? I didn't think they were able to sell stuff until it went national, or am I wrong?

Glad to see the confirmation it is supported on SWM16s, that will make things simpler for me when it is qualified for commercial accounts. I have a feeling DSWM30s will be kind of expensive due to much lower production being needed versus SWM16s. I couldn't use more than 7 tuners off it anyway.


----------



## HoTat2

compnurd said:


> Wow this thing could be out really soon and also confirms you can order from them and self install


Just wish I could get some clarity on the tuner count ...

I grasp the difference between the 7 and 11 tuner requirement, assuming the additional 4 are reserved for two bonded tps. But now Stuart mentions the full 15 tuners.

So which is it for goodness sake? ....

We have 15 tuners total here on a SWiM-16 (1 HR54 + 5 HR24s) and no 4K tvs. So there is no way we can surrender all that to be reduced to only 7 tuners ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> After so many years of supporting hardware practically forever, and only obsoleting MPG receivers from the mid 90s a couple years ago, it is strange that they aren't letting this mix with other equipment and effectively obsoleting everything else. I'm sure some of those testing it will have at least tried it to see what happens, maybe when they can talk they might be able to shed some light. Or maybe AT&T are just being jerks
> 
> I'm a bit surprised that Solid Signal expects to have it in Q2, I wonder if that means the national release is getting pushed up? I didn't think they were able to sell stuff until it went national, or am I wrong?
> 
> Glad to see the confirmation it is supported on SWM16s, that will make things simpler for me when it is qualified for commercial accounts. I have a feeling DSWM30s will be kind of expensive due to much lower production being needed versus SWM16s. I couldn't use more than 7 tuners off it anyway.


I believe they can start selling it once it is available in there market for installs.. but yes that does seem the release is being pushed up from August


----------



## compnurd

HoTat2 said:


> Just wish I could get some clarity on the tuner count ...
> 
> I grasp the difference between the 7 and 11 tuner requirement, assuming the additional 4 are reserved for two bonded tps. But now Stuart mentions the full 15 tuners.
> 
> So which is it for goodness sake? ....
> 
> We have 15 tuners total here on a SWiM-16 (1 HR54 + 5 HR24s) and no 4K tvs. So there is no way we can surrender all that to be reduced to only 7 tuners ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


makes me wonder at some point with a firmware if they up the tuner recording from 7-11


----------



## b52pooh

If it is usable on a SWM16, using only eight tuners, is it also compatible with SWM 8 module or SWM 8 LNB?


----------



## carl6

Tuner count: This is somewhat confusing, but what it boils down to is the HS17 can serve 7 simultaneous "streams". Up to two of those can be 4K. 4K will at some point in the relatively near future use bonded transponders, so 3 of the tuners will be used for one 4K "stream". So in effect, you can have 5 SD or HD streams (each using 1 SWM channel) plus two 4K streams (each using 3 SWM channels), which totals 11. That's the number of active tuners in the HS17. There is no current plan or stated purpose for the remaining 4 SWM channels.

How does the 7 "streams" break down with regard to recording or watching? The HS17 can record 7 channels if you are either not watching anything, or if you are watching one of the channels being recorded. However, each client will grab a "stream" as soon as you turn it on (it comes up in live viewing). So if you are actively using 3 clients, then you can have at most, 4 recordings going on. Think of 7 as THE magic number, and don't worry about SWM channels. You can do 7 "things". You can record 7. You can watch 7. You can record 3 and watch 4. Etc.


----------



## Stevies3

Great review of the Genie 2. When adding clients it states you need serial numbers, what do you need for the RVU's? I assumed the MAC address? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carl6

As to use on a non-RBDSWM LNB, the long term intention, policy, and plan is to require the RB digital SWM LNB. However, for the near term (perhaps the rest of this year, possibly sooner), MDU installations, and installations that also have the World Direct dish, will be permitted using SWM 16/32 technology. This is going to be on an exception basis. If you don't have one of those specific requirements, you will almost certainly be required to use the RBDSM22 LNB.


----------



## carl6

Stevies3 said:


> Great review of the Genie 2. When adding clients it states you need serial numbers, what do you need for the RVU's? I assumed the MAC address?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, MAC address and maybe TV serial number. Not sure about the sn but absolutely the MAC.


----------



## carl6

And with regard to hybrid systems (HS17 and any H/HR product), policy from get go is no. If that doesn't work for you, then forget the HS17. Also, the HS17 falls in the "only one Genie per account" category, so if you need something more than one HS17, it isn't your solution.


----------



## carl6

There is also a review of the HS17 just posted at www.iamanedgecutter.com


----------



## inkahauts

carl6 said:


> Tuner count: This is somewhat confusing, but what it boils down to is the HS17 can serve 7 simultaneous "streams". Up to two of those can be 4K. 4K will at some point in the relatively near future use bonded transponders, so 3 of the tuners will be used for one 4K "stream". So in effect, you can have 5 SD or HD streams (each using 1 SWM channel) plus two 4K streams (each using 3 SWM channels), which totals 11. That's the number of active tuners in the HS17. There is no current plan or stated purpose for the remaining 4 SWM channels.
> 
> How does the 7 "streams" break down with regard to recording or watching? The HS17 can record 7 channels if you are either not watching anything, or if you are watching one of the channels being recorded. However, each client will grab a "stream" as soon as you turn it on (it comes up in live viewing). So if you are actively using 3 clients, then you can have at most, 4 recordings going on. Think of 7 as THE magic number, and don't worry about SWM channels. You can do 7 "things". You can record 7. You can watch 7. You can record 3 and watch 4. Etc.


Just to add, if you record everything you watch then it's record any seven things and watch any seven recordings. (4k limited on either to two) . When you break from a recording it will simply show you a live channel that is current recording like any other DVR using all its tuners for recordings. It doesn't stop anything from recording when it gets turned on or goes back to live. That's why I've always said people need to stop saying it's stealing tuners. Using a client doesn't stop it from recording. You'd will have to do that manual by changing the channel.

This thing is very versatile.


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> I still don't like that you can't have the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 hooked up to it.


Why? If seven meets your needs ( total channels live you ever need to view or record at once and number of tvs in your house) then you don't need anything else.

If for no other reason everyone already knows the answer as to why too now.

You can't have more than one genie of any type.

You cant have more than 13 tuners on a dswim rblnb that aren't a genie hr44 or newer. We don't know why yet but we know you can't. The hs17 grabs 15 swim channels even though it is only using 11 right now. That effectively eliminates any chance of connecting anything else.


----------



## Bill Broderick

inkahauts said:


> That's why I've always said people need to stop saying it's stealing tuners. Using a client doesn't stop it from recording. You'd will have to do that manual by changing the channel.


...at which time, it steals a tuner from the server. If I am recording 5 shows on my Genie and want to watch a 6th show live on one of my HR24's, I can continue to record all 5 shows. If you're recording 5 shows on your Genie and want to watch a 6th show live using one of your clients, you either have to cancel one of the 5 shows being recorded or not watch that 6th show. If you choose the former, the client has effectively "stolen" a tuner from the Genie.


----------



## CraigerM

inkahauts said:


> Why? If seven meets your needs ( total channels live you ever need to view or record at once and number of tvs in your house) then you don't need anything else.
> 
> If for no other reason everyone already knows the answer as to why too now.
> 
> You can't have more than one genie of any type.
> 
> You cant have more than 13 tuners on a dswim rblnb that aren't a genie hr44 or newer. We don't know why yet but we know you can't. The hs17 grabs 15 swim channels even though it is only using 11 right now. That effectively eliminates any chance of connecting anything else.


If the HS-17 goes down all the clients go down. Then you would have to wait until they ship you another one.


----------



## CraigerM

Solid Signal review of the HS-17 is up.

http://forums.solidsignal.com/docs/Hands On HS17.pdf


----------



## dpeters11

CraigerM said:


> If the HS-17 goes down all the clients go down. Also you would loose all your recordings. Then you would have to wait until they ship you another one.


True, though remember that clients still work with a hard drive failure. Of course there can be fan failures etc as well but hard drive is probably one of the most common issues.


----------



## CraigerM

dpeters11 said:


> True, though remember that clients still work with a hard drive failure. Of course there can be fan failures etc as well but hard drive is probably one of the most common issues.


I didn't know that clients can still work. They can still view live programming from the dish if the HS-17 went down? The other bad thing is you would loose all your recordings that are the HS-17.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> After so many years of supporting hardware practically forever, and only obsoleting MPG receivers from the mid 90s a couple years ago, it is strange that they aren't letting this mix with other equipment and effectively obsoleting everything else. I'm sure some of those testing it will have at least tried it to see what happens, maybe when they can talk they might be able to shed some light. Or maybe AT&T are just being jerks
> 
> I'm a bit surprised that Solid Signal expects to have it in Q2, I wonder if that means the national release is getting pushed up? I didn't think they were able to sell stuff until it went national, or am I wrong?
> 
> Glad to see the confirmation it is supported on SWM16s, that will make things simpler for me when it is qualified for commercial accounts. I have a feeling DSWM30s will be kind of expensive due to much lower production being needed versus SWM16s. I couldn't use more than 7 tuners off it anyway.


At some point you have to let things go or they stop you from really advancing. Personally I think now is a perfect time since this platform is quite different. It's more versatile as you have been suggesting all along..

And as I suggest I think they have already told us with the menus in the hr54 and such that there is a technical reason with RB satelites and I'm guessing bonding that means you just physically can't do it.


----------



## HoTat2

carl6 said:


> Tuner count: This is somewhat confusing, but what it boils down to is the HS17 can serve 7 simultaneous "streams". Up to two of those can be 4K. 4K will at some point in the relatively near future use bonded transponders, so 3 of the tuners will be used for one 4K "stream". So in effect, you can have 5 SD or HD streams (each using 1 SWM channel) plus two 4K streams (each using 3 SWM channels), which totals 11. That's the number of active tuners in the HS17. There is no current plan or stated purpose for the remaining 4 SWM channels.
> 
> How does the 7 "streams" break down with regard to recording or watching? The HS17 can record 7 channels if you are either not watching anything, or if you are watching one of the channels being recorded. However, each client will grab a "stream" as soon as you turn it on (it comes up in live viewing). So if you are actively using 3 clients, then you can have at most, 4 recordings going on. Think of 7 as THE magic number, and don't worry about SWM channels. You can do 7 "things". You can record 7. You can watch 7. You can record 3 and watch 4. Etc.


Ok, but as I once asked Bill Broderick who said the same ...

When did it go to "3" bonded tps. for future 4K instead of two?

Or might you be confusing DIRECTV's stated goal to eventually multiplex "3" 30 mps 4K programs over 2 bonded tps. and not a single 4K program over 3 bonded tps.?

Assuredly it must be the former ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## dpeters11

CraigerM said:


> I didn't know that clients can still work. They can still view live programming from the dish if the HS-17 went down? The other bad thing is you would loose all your recordings that are the HS-17.


I think that all started with the changes in the software to handle the H44. Basically, if a Genie loses it's hard drive, they and their clients are still usable for live TV. The exception to that might be the 34, at one point I read that it was removed on that one, not sure if it was brought back.


----------



## slice1900

b52pooh said:


> If it is usable on a SWM16, using only eight tuners, is it also compatible with SWM 8 module or SWM 8 LNB?


There's no reason why not it wouldn't work with a SWM8 switch, but it is possible it might refuse to work with a SWM8 LNB.


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, but as I once asked Bill Broderick who said the same ...
> 
> When did it go to "3" bonded tps. for future 4K instead of two?
> 
> Or might you be confusing DIRECTV's stated goal to eventually multiplex "3" 30 mps 4K programs over 2 bonded tps. and not a single 4K program over 3 bonded tps.?
> 
> Assuredly it must be the former ...


I think the confusion is that the SWM channels used for 4K seem to be reserved for that purpose only. So you have seven SWM channels reserved for HD, and four reserved for 4K (two bonded pairs)

So if you watch/record something that's 4K you leave that HD SWM channel unused and use a bonded pair of the 4K SWM channels. Thus instead of needing 9 SWM channels to supply 7 HD or 5 HD + 2 4K it needs 11, with three SWM channels being effectively used for 4K - two for the bonded transponders the 4K channel is being delivered on, and one for the 'HD' SWM channel that's going to waste.


----------



## inkahauts

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, but as I once asked Bill Broderick who said the same ...
> 
> When did it go to "3" bonded tps. for future 4K instead of two?
> 
> Or might you be confusing DIRECTV's stated goal to eventually multiplex "3" 30 mps 4K programs over 2 bonded tps. and not a single 4K program over 3 bonded tps.?
> 
> Assuredly it must be the former ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


You'd be wrong. I was surprised too. He isn't mistaking or saying it wrong.

When did we ever hear it was only two? That was all us just assuming if it takes two transponders it will taken two swim channels and two tuners. Evidently we have all assumed wrong.

Who is to say it isn't two bonded transponders need three swim channels? Or two bonded swim channels need three tuners. It's evidently one of those last two. Or at least that's how they have allocated tuners for 4k of bonded transponders.

Explains the two extra tuners in the hr54 now to doesn't it?


----------



## CraigerM

dpeters11 said:


> I think that all started with the changes in the software to handle the H44. Basically, if a Genie loses it's hard drive, they and their clients are still usable for live TV. The exception to that might be the 34, at one point I read that it was removed on that one, not sure if it was brought back.


What about if the Genie doesn't have any power would the clients still work?


----------



## raott

No offense Carl, but something I brought up over and over when those were being posted here, first looks are not reviews. They read like marketing brochures. Not allowing any other HR combinations with the Genie 2 is a huge issue for many and that issue barely receives a mention in the first look.



carl6 said:


> There is also a review of the HS17 just posted at www.iamanedgecutter.com


----------



## compnurd

raott said:


> No offense Carl, but something I brought up over and over when those were being posted here, first looks are not reviews. They read like marketing brochures. Not allowing any other HR combinations with the Genie 2 is a huge issue for many and that issue barely receives a mention in the first look.


The edgecutter review is lacking alot compared to the Solid Signal Review.. Also based on the amount of people listed tested this device.. Seems like this has been out for a few weeks now


----------



## NR4P

raott said:


> No offense Carl, but something I brought up over and over when those were being posted here, first looks are not reviews. They read like marketing brochures. Not allowing any other HR combinations with the Genie 2 is a huge issue for many and that issue barely receives a mention in the first look.


A marketing brochure rarely highlights "no's, not, cannot". On the mention of not allowing any other HR combinations, it is a highlighted, bulleted point. Along with 6 others items that are not hype, but detractors in some respects. This one seems balanced.


----------



## dpeters11

CraigerM said:


> What about if the Genie doesn't have any power would the clients still work?


No, in that case they wouldn't. I was just meaning if there was a hard drive failure. Though with the power supply external, there's no reason why they couldn't let you swap that out in an ATT store, if it's actually a power supply issue.


----------



## Bill Broderick

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, but as I once asked Bill Broderick who said the same ...
> 
> When did it go to "3" bonded tps. for future 4K instead of two?
> 
> Or might you be confusing DIRECTV's stated goal to eventually multiplex "3" 30 mps 4K programs over 2 bonded tps. and not a single 4K program over 3 bonded tps.?
> 
> Assuredly it must be the former ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


The Edgecutter first look seems to imply the same thing that I inferred from the product manual. On the third page it says "

"If you look at the coax input, it is labeled "SWM15", suggesting it supports 15 channels. In fact, the Genie 2 uses up to 11 channels with two bonded (1 nominal plus 2 additional for bonding) to support the capability to simultaneously view/record up to 7 channels at any given time (including up to two 4K UHD channels). 4K UHD will utilize bonded transponders requiring the use of three SWM channels."


----------



## dpeters11

For the issue of no other non-clients, I'm not sure what else can be said. For DirecTV/AT&T, it's a non-starter. You won't be able to have a mix on an account, so that's all that really can be said in the first look.

It is very true that this box isn't for everyone. But I can see a compelling case for it in the average home, particularly compared to a genie/client setup on the older equipment where clients could really use up those extra tuners.


----------



## compnurd

dpeters11 said:


> For the issue of no other non-clients, I'm not sure what else can be said. For DirecTV/AT&T, it's a non-starter. You won't be able to have a mix on an account, so that's all that really can be said in the first look.
> 
> It is very true that this box isn't for everyone. But I can see a compelling case for it in the average home, particularly compared to a genie/client setup on the older equipment where clients could really use up those extra tuners.


I cant wait to ditch the deprecate HR24 in my guest room when this comes out


----------



## slice1900

Bill Broderick said:


> The Edgecutter first look seems to imply the same thing that I inferred from the product manual. On the third page it says "
> 
> "If you look at the coax input, it is labeled "SWM15", suggesting it supports 15 channels. In fact, the Genie 2 uses up to 11 channels with two bonded (1 nominal plus 2 additional for bonding) to support the capability to simultaneously view/record up to 7 channels at any given time (including up to two 4K UHD channels). 4K UHD will utilize bonded transponders requiring the use of three SWM channels."


Until we get some solid information otherwise, I still think it is simply a limitation in how Directv is implementing software bonding, requiring two completely separate SWM channels for bonded transponders. That would mean a C61K would need three SWM channels - one it would use only when watching HD or SD programming, and two it would use only when watching 4K programming. That is, it would need three, but never use more than two at once.

Phil Goswitz said Directv would use two transponders for bonding, one of the few times Directv has made any public statements about their technology. That doesn't mean they couldn't have changed their minds, but I don't think that would make much sense to bond three. He stated they'd use two bonded transponders to deliver three 4K channels at 30 Mbps/ea. That would imply 45 Mbps per transponder, a slight increase over the 39.4 Mbps they get from CONUS Ka transponders (i.e. QPSK 3/4 instead of QPSK 2/3)

If they used three transponders, that's either 120 Mbps (if they went with 40 Mbps each) or 135 Mbps (if they did 45 Mbps each) If they used 30 Mbps per channel they could only fit four either way - it would be stupid to consume one whole transponder to gain only one more channel! Of course they could drop that 30 Mbps per 4K channel down a bit to 27 Mbps per channel, and then they could fit five channels in 135 Mbps. That would allow them to fit 60 4K channels in the 36 reverse band transponders available to them, rather than 54. Not exactly a huge increase for such a loss in flexibility on the client side.

Clearly there's a piece of this I'm missing, hopefully we can eventually get some clarification on this without having to wait until Q3 '18 when reverse band is planned to begin broadcasting...

I also don't understand why the HS17 is limited to only two 4K channels at once, unless that's just a "because we have hardly anything available to watch right now" sort of restriction that will be relaxed later.


----------



## inkahauts

raott said:


> No offense Carl, but something I brought up over and over when those were being posted here, first looks are not reviews. They read like marketing brochures. Not allowing any other HR combinations with the Genie 2 is a huge issue for many and that issue barely receives a mention in the first look.


It's not that big an issue for the major major majority. I say that simply because it can drive seven tvs. That was always the biggest issue with clients imho.

It's also a big problem solver for those with one tv and its 4k.

If you do not watch sports and you record everything you watch, there is nothing you can't record. Seven covers all except maybe some sports. The bigger issue imho is the 100 series links. That's a huge issue for me personally.


----------



## Go Beavs

slice1900 said:


> There's no reason why not it wouldn't work with a SWM8 switch, but it is possible it might refuse to work with a SWM8 LNB.


It will work with the SWiM8 LNB and SWiM8 external module.


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

In the reading I've done so far, I see that picture-in-picture is history, which is okay with me. But I haven't seen anything clarifying whether or not PIP goes away because the dual tuner function is eliminated. I use dual tuner quite a bit, so a lack of that would concern me.


----------



## carl6

Double play does work (pressing down to start another channel, then toggling between them with down arrow).


----------



## carl6

As to 4K channel use, my sources word it in such a manner that 3 SWM channels, are used with a "bonded transponder 4K" feed.

However, it could be what Slice has suggested, where 1 transponder is used for normal feeds, and two are used for bonding, with two dedicated pairs of 2 SWM channels are set aside for the 4K/bonded stuff.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Wolfmanjohn said:


> In the reading I've done so far, I see that picture-in-picture is history, which is okay with me. But I haven't seen anything clarifying whether or not PIP goes away because the dual tuner function is eliminated. I use dual tuner quite a bit, so a lack of that would concern me.


PIP goes away because it only works on the TV connected directly to the Genie. It has never worked on clients. Since the HS-17 has no methodology for connecting directly to a TV, it can't do PIP.


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

carl6 said:


> Double play does work (pressing down to start another channel, then toggling between them with down arrow).


Thanks, Carl6! My interest continues......


----------



## carl6

dpeters11 said:


> True, though remember that clients still work with a hard drive failure. Of course there can be fan failures etc as well but hard drive is probably one of the most common issues.


I'm not sure that continuing live tv viewing with a hard drive failure is part of the design, or if it will be supported going forward, but we did verify that worked in testing. However, clients require a server (the Genie), so if it fails (other than just hard drive), clients will not work.


----------



## James Long

carl6 said:


> However, it could be what Slice has suggested, where 1 transponder is used for normal feeds, and two are used for bonding, with two dedicated pairs of 2 SWM channels are set aside for the 4K/bonded stuff.


Seven SWM channels for single transponders plus four SWM channels for the two bonded pairs works nicely (instead of sometimes bonded/sometimes not SWM channels).


----------



## RAD

b52pooh said:


> If it is usable on a SWM16, using only eight tuners, is it also compatible with SWM 8 module or SWM 8 LNB?


Yes it does work with a SWiM8, that's what I started testing with until I upgraded t a RBLNB.


----------



## CraigerM

I know that they would prefer the Ethernet port to be used for the Internet. However, has anyone tested to see if you could the HS-17 Ethernet port to run the Ethernet cable to the 4k TV and have the HS-17 act as a Deca adapter? Then use WIFI for the Internet connection?


----------



## Christopher Gould

So those of us who want/need 12 or more turners to record/view are stuck with old equipment. I don't believe that 99% of houses holds will be happy with this. My plan/wish was hr34 for my recording and a h24 for off load my recording to dvd recorder. Then 3 hr21 for 2kids and wife bedrooms. I was waiting to upgrade my HR34 to 4k and HR21s. But now their is nothing available.


----------



## dpeters11

Christopher Gould said:


> So those of us who want/need 12 or more turners to record/view are stuck with old equipment. I don't believe that 99% of houses holds will be happy with this. My plan/wish was hr34 for my recording and a h24 for off load my recording to dvd recorder. Then 3 hr21 for 2kids and wife bedrooms. I was waiting to upgrade my HR34 to 4k and HR21s. But now their is nothing available.


Honestly, I don't think the majority of customers need that kind of thing. I'm actually thinking the vast majority would be fine with the HS17 tuners.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Christopher Gould said:


> So those of us who want/need 12 or more turners to record/view are stuck with old equipment. I don't believe that 99% of houses holds will be happy with this. My plan/wish was hr34 for my recording and a h24 for off load my recording to dvd recorder. Then 3 hr21 for 2kids and wife bedrooms. I was waiting to upgrade my HR34 to 4k and HR21s. But now their is nothing available.


What are you talking about? What you want is available. But in a slightly different configuration. You can replace your HR34 with an HR54 for 4K recording. Put it where you would have put the H24 for DVD recording. Instead of an H24, get a C61K client and connect it to your 4K TV. Keep all of the other DVR's where you have them. You can control your Genie via the client. So, other than not having Picture in Picture, it would be the same as having the Genie connected directly to your 4K TV.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

dpeters11 said:


> Honestly, I don't think the majority of customers need that kind of thing. I'm actually thinking the vast majority would be fine with the HS17 tuners.


Agreed. This will work perfect for 99% of households


----------



## Christopher Gould

Basically if you take out the genie extra turners and say the average house has 4 rooms like they push in ads the old 2 turner dvr would give you 8 turners one more then the 7 this does.


----------



## Christopher Gould

Bill Broderick said:


> What are you talking about? What you want is available. But in a slightly different configuration. You can replace your HR34 with an HR54 for 4K recording. Put it where you would have put the H24 for DVD recording. Instead of an H24, get a C61K client and connect it to your 4K TV. Keep all of the other DVR's where you have them. You can control your Genie via the client. So, other than not having Picture in Picture, it would be the same as having the Genie connected directly to your 4K TV.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yes it's available with old equipment. Are the hr24 even being produced anymore?


----------



## Bill Broderick

You said that you wanted to keep your HR-21's. The HR54 and C61K's are both new machines. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Christopher Gould

Bill Broderick said:


> You said that you wanted to keep your HR-21's. The HR54 and C61K's are both new machines.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


No I said I was waiting to upgrade the hr34 with 4k and hr21. The hr21 are slow as molasses.
I understand this is the direction directv is going. But it doesn't mean it's a good one. Seems very limiting considering that I have read on here the other boxes are out of production or soon will be. I understand Dishes tech is different but the hooper 3 having 16 turners seem more flexible.

Plus if I upgrade to a new 4k tv in a year or so and move the current to bedroom the hr54 cant do two 4k streams.

Not saying hr17 won't work but having been with directv 20+ years this is a disappointment.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Christopher Gould said:


> No I said I was waiting to upgrade the hr34 with 4k and hr21. The hr21 are slow as molasses.
> I understand this is the direction directv is going. But it doesn't mean it's a good one. Seems very limiting considering that I have read on here the other boxes are out of production or soon will be. I understand Dishes tech is different but the hooper 3 having 16 turners seem more flexible.
> 
> Plus if I upgrade to a new 4k tv in a year or so and move the current to bedroom the hr54 cant do two 4k streams.
> 
> Not saying hr17 won't work but having been with directv 20+ years this is a disappointment.


That may be what you meant. But, it's not what you wrote.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## NR4P

Christopher Gould said:


> Basically if you take out the genie extra turners and say the average house has 4 rooms like they push in ads the old 2 turner dvr would give you 8 turners one more then the 7 this does.


Total tuner count is not necessarily the overall need. Considering the age of the HR24 design, I am venturing a guess that the cost of 4, HR24's is about double the cost of an HS17. Its all about cost of installation and an HS17 with clients is the most cost effective approach. Also the HS17 can serve 4K where the HR24 cannot.


----------



## peds48

Christopher Gould said:


> Are the hr24 even being produced anymore?


No, they are not.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Christopher Gould

Bill Broderick said:


> That may be what you meant. But, it's not what you wrote.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I believe this is what I wrote.

I was waiting to upgrade my HR34 to 4k and HR21s.

No where does it say keep hr21. Since we are talking about the hr17 being server/client based system why would I keep ancient hr21s.


----------



## slice1900

The HS17 eliminates a couple major technical barriers to allowing more than one Genie on an account, by changing the way it associates with clients. There won't be any "ownership disputes" over clients where you have multiple servers, and those who have more than one won't have the chance to be underbilled for the number of TVs they are using.

I think once they have production volumes up high enough and a comfort level for the typical one server per account setup, they might loosen that restriction. If they do it would remain to be seen how they bill for it, but it would eliminate the concerns over number of tuners, and concerns over putting all your eggs in one basket if it fails. It would remain a fairly rare thing, because I agree that a single HS17 will make 99% of customers happy. The 1% just have to hope Directv still cares about them enough to continue serving them like they always have.

By not allowing other receivers on the account, it makes it harder for people who want Directv at a weekend home. They can't bring a receiver from home, or keep one at their lake house or in their RV if they have an HS17, because they won't be able to have it on the same account. Maybe they are finally going to crack down on people who are skirting the letter of the TOS on those types of arrangements. Could even be part of the reason why they aren't allowing anything else on the account along with the HS17. Allowing a second HS17 would address the needs of those customers, if Directv wants to address them.


----------



## inkahauts

Christopher Gould said:


> Basically if you take out the genie extra turners and say the average house has 4 rooms like they push in ads the old 2 turner dvr would give you 8 turners one more then the 7 this does.


First that isn't what abnormal house has. Most old setup houses before genies have one DVR and then three h24 type receivers. They don't have four DVRs. So they have a max of five tuners and only two record.

Normal all genie installs have the same amount of tuners but having the five tuners pooled is far more efficient.

Then there is the hs17. Besides now being able to drive seven tvs on its own over just four...

The seven tuners on the hs17 are also far more efficient than the 2 each on for old DVRs. On the old DVRs you'd have to make sure all programs are setup orderly and don't cause conflicts especially with over the air stations. With the hs17 you can just about set recordings in any order and have no worries. The best way is simply make sure all local channel programs are at the top of the series list and all the rest below and you are done. No running around making sure you aren't duplicating recordings and so forth... almost no worries about order either.

Now with that said... if you where separating everyone's recordings and one person was wanting to record three shows off local channels at the same time they where totally out of luck. Not so anymore.

Really only issue that pops up is if you watch so much sports you often have more than two sports programs recording and five local channels at the same time at night. You would have conflicts after the first two sports programs. Otherwise seven tuners gets everything.

The only real issue I have is the series link limit of 100.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> The HS17 eliminates a couple major technical barriers to allowing more than one Genie on an account, by changing the way it associates with clients. There won't be any "ownership disputes" over clients where you have multiple servers, and those who have more than one won't have the chance to be underbilled for the number of TVs they are using.
> 
> I think once they have production volumes up high enough and a comfort level for the typical one server per account setup, they might loosen that restriction. If they do it would remain to be seen how they bill for it, but it would eliminate the concerns over number of tuners, and concerns over putting all your eggs in one basket if it fails. It would remain a fairly rare thing, because I agree that a single HS17 will make 99% of customers happy. The 1% just have to hope Directv still cares about them enough to continue serving them like they always have.
> 
> By not allowing other receivers on the account, it makes it harder for people who want Directv at a weekend home. They can't bring a receiver from home, or keep one at their lake house or in their RV if they have an HS17, because they won't be able to have it on the same account. Maybe they are finally going to crack down on people who are skirting the letter of the TOS on those types of arrangements. Could even be part of the reason why they aren't allowing anything else on the account along with the HS17. Allowing a second HS17 would address the needs of those customers, if Directv wants to address them.


While I think they should allow two on an account (doesn't it seem like it'd fit perfectly with in dswim30?) I just don't see it happening. They sure should though.

I think they have always wanted people to have RV accounts separate and don't really care about any inconvenience this may cause them. And I think they honestly just look the other way a bit on vacation homes that people take their equipment too. I don't think they make any choices to stop that from happening, but I also don't think they would make any decisions to not cause them more trouble.

But I also don't see why you think they still can't take it with them. There's zero reason they can't. They just can't have service at two locations.

I really think this has to do with them requiring rblnbs and RB lnbs not supporting more than 13 tuners if there's anything other than a newer genie on it. And they aren't going to allow multiple genies ever if one of the multiple is below a hs17. (No client tracking) This thing does take 15 tuners according to it's on screen info... so that 13 limit is blown.


----------



## dpeters11

inkahauts said:


> First that isn't what abnormal house has. Most old setup houses before genies have one DVR and then three h24 type receivers. They don't have four DVRs. So they have a max of five tuners and only two record.


Exactly. A standard free install of 4 rooms etc has never included more than one DVR. Sure they could do more, at a cost and not an insignificant one for the average homeowner.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## cpalmer2k

I think the main reason DirecTV doesn't want to allow more than one Genie per account is the risk of people bill splitting. If they allowed two Genies (or more) per account people easily could share with others and split the bill. Their move to the mini-client concept I think is as much about eliminating stuff like that as it is about simplifying things. I do think not having more tuners is a mistake though. The Genie just doesn't compare to the Hopper 3. It has 16 tuners, PIP, the Sportsbar mode for 4K TVs. I was hoping for much, much more from DirecTV this time.


----------



## raott

IMO, while this may be a good solution for 99% of new installs, it doesn't seem to be a workable solution for much of the current customer base who have HR products. Is anyone here really going to turn in their HR's to go to this solution? Many, if not most of whom, have already sunk somewhere between $99 - $199 for the pleasure of leasing? 

Are we looking at a time, 18 months down the road, if an HR44 or 54 craps out, that a customer would have to be moved to this and have to give up perfectly working DVRs to get a whole home solution? I doubt it, but I wonder.


----------



## hancox

As someone who uses:

OTA
PiP
A tailgating setup

...this thing is a steaming pile of you-know-what. I guess i need to get an HR54 before they go out of production, so i can be 4k future-proofed. Sigh.


----------



## NR4P

For tailgating, grab an H25. Plenty available. Small and easy.


----------



## carl6

hancox said:


> As someone who uses:
> OTA
> PiP
> A tailgating setup
> ...this thing is a steaming pile of you-know-what. I guess i need to get an HR54 before they go out of production, so i can be 4k future-proofed. Sigh.





NR4P said:


> For tailgating, grab an H25. Plenty available. Small and easy.


I think his concern is the restriction of not having any H/HR products on the same account as an HS17. Thus, an H25 is not a tailgating option with an HS17. In this case, an HR54 is indeed the future-proofing option for 4K.


----------



## hancox

NR4P said:


> For tailgating, grab an H25. Plenty available. Small and easy.


I use an H24 now. It's great. @carl6 spelled it out perfectly - how will i use it when i can't activate it?


----------



## slice1900

cpalmer2k said:


> I think the main reason DirecTV doesn't want to allow more than one Genie per account is the risk of people bill splitting. If they allowed two Genies (or more) per account people easily could share with others and split the bill.


Perhaps you're right, but if that was their main objection it would be easy to fix by requiring all HS17s on an account be networked together. No internet access would be needed - each HS17 on an account would know about all the others on the account, and they'd "say hello" to each other via ethernet or the 2.4 GHz wifi to verify they are at the same location. If they can't see each other for too long then they'd stop working.

This shouldn't be an imposition on those who just want something to take with them when tailgating or whatever, or need more tuners/TVs than one HS17 can handle. And well no matter if you disagree and think it would be an imposition, this would be better than not even having the option to get more than one. It would pretty much prevent account stacking, unless you were doing it with your next door neighbor.

Obviously they'd have to make it friendly against the possibility of glitches in your home network and give you some warning before they stop working so you can fix it. Maybe a few days grace would be about right, to give time to schedule an installer to replace a failed HS17. That would let people take one to a vacation home for the weekend without bringing them all. However you wouldn't be able to leave one there full time like some people do now.


----------



## HoTat2

hancox said:


> I use an H24 now. It's great. @carl6 spelled it out perfectly - how will i use it when i can't activate it?


Yeah...

I really think DIRECTV is going to have to make some kind of exception at a future point and allow at least one type of receiver model on an HS17 account for tailgating or camping purposes.

But OTOH, does DISH allow you to place a Wally or something that you can take with you for tailgating or camping on a Hopper account or do you have to pay a separate accout?

Since if it is separate then DIRECTV like DISH could be using the HS17 in the same manner to try and make more money by forcing tailgaters to pay for an additional account.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## NR4P

For the H25, I was suggesting moving that vs the HR54. Obviously I wasn't clear.

Aside from tailgating I see other reasons for Directv to have to do something given the HS17 client only limitation. Example, someone with a large property, even a farm, with multiple buildings means sometimes multiple dishes are the only choice. So the HS17 architecture of 1 per address doesn't work. 

And sooner or later I imagine a big shot of AT&T who has a mansion is going to ask why he/she needs separate accounts?

For any product, there are always "gotchas" that surface later. Officially called "edge" cases and they bite you. I suspect there may be a way of joining multiple accounts someday for the issues as they get to be a big enough pain. Time will tell.


----------



## CraigerM

I think I am beginning to agree that DTV doesn't really care about customers with the older equipment and that is why they went with the HS-17. DTV comes out with the server/client system for new installs anyway. Plus the average customer I think would be happy with the server/client because they probably don't know about the HR-24, H-24 and H-25.


----------



## HoTat2

CraigerM said:


> I think I am beginning to agree that DTV doesn't really care about customers with the older equipment and that is why they went with the HS-17. I forgot that they have been installing the server/client system for some time now anyway. Plus the average customer I think would be happy with the server/client because they probably don't know about the HR-24, H-24 and H-25.


Agreed....

It's essentially the "JSP factor" and what satisfies them which comprises the majority of subs. unfortunately that drives the process.

So right now, it's just "too bad" for the "edge" folks of tailgaters, OTA users, or those needing two separate dishes ...

You're stuck with legacy equipment and scrounging around on e-bay for stuff like AM21s for now at least ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

HoTat2 said:


> Agreed....
> 
> It's essentially the "JSP factor" and what satisfies them which comprises the majority of subs. unfortunately that drives the process.
> 
> So right now, it's just "too bad" for the "edge" folks of tailgaters, OTA users, or those needing two separate dishes ...
> 
> You're stuck with legacy equipment and scrounging around on e-bay for stuff like AM21s for now at least ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I wonder how soon DTV would want everyone on the server/client model?


----------



## inkahauts

cpalmer2k said:


> I think the main reason DirecTV doesn't want to allow more than one Genie per account is the risk of people bill splitting. If they allowed two Genies (or more) per account people easily could share with others and split the bill. Their move to the mini-client concept I think is as much about eliminating stuff like that as it is about simplifying things. I do think not having more tuners is a mistake though. The Genie just doesn't compare to the Hopper 3. It has 16 tuners, PIP, the Sportsbar mode for 4K TVs. I was hoping for much, much more from DirecTV this time.


I don't buy for even a second that server system has anything to do with people sharing accounts. It's all about cost. These cost them so much less than any older style system. And I'd bet one hs17 costs less than an HR20 did when it first came out. Heck the hs17 and four clients might cost less combined! Cost and covering 99% of their customers is what the hardware choice is about.

As for multiple genies, it just doesn't work right. Period. There are problems with them getting along on the same network. Big ones. And with the current generation there is also billing issues. While they can get around it they'd have to spend way to much money to do so for how few they fee would want multiple genies.

I think their reasoning in that is flawed, just as it is for why we don't have profiles or folders for our recordings yet. But I fully see that as their theory.

I'm very perplexed by the seven channels. I think they need to turn on those other four and make it 11. I can't see that ever having issues myself. I don't see 4k being limited to two being an issue though.

However I have to say, seven channels catches everything I throw at it unless I throw too many sports recordings at it on a night where there's also something on every major local channel. And it will do the same for everyone else too. But 11 means zero sports issues too.


----------



## inkahauts

raott said:


> IMO, while this may be a good solution for 99% of new installs, it doesn't seem to be a workable solution for much of the current customer base who have HR products. Is anyone here really going to turn in their HR's to go to this solution? Many, if not most of whom, have already sunk somewhere between $99 - $199 for the pleasure of leasing?
> 
> Are we looking at a time, 18 months down the road, if an HR44 or 54 craps out, that a customer would have to be moved to this and have to give up perfectly working DVRs to get a whole home solution? I doubt it, but I wonder.


Depends... Seven tuners on one machine is better than probably 10 on five different 2 tuner machines. So much more efficient.

But the lack of series links is the issue imho. 100 on the hs17 vs 250 on five machines.

And I'm guessing we have five years plus with the hr54/44 and maybe even the other HR24 being available from DIRECTV. Not 18 months.

Plus much of the customer base that have hr2xs only have one. So yeah this is easily fine for them to upgrade too. In fact it'd be way better than what they have today in every way.


----------



## inkahauts

hancox said:


> As someone who uses:
> 
> OTA
> PiP
> A tailgating setup
> 
> ...this thing is a steaming pile of you-know-what. I guess i need to get an HR54 before they go out of production, so i can be 4k future-proofed. Sigh.


Yep. I won't call it a pile. It's excellent imho. But it's not an option if you need over the air. Pip just hasn't panned out ever it seems for anyone. Manufacturer wise.

And it would be a bit more to carry but it would work for a tailgate. Especially if you had an RVU tv. I mean if you are already taking a dish what's one more small box by comparison?

But today I'd think that streaming your channels over the air and casting them to your tv via an appletv or chomecast type device would be much easier than lugging a dish to a game anyway. I know it may not work everywhere or if you don't have unlimited data but for those places that do...


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> I think I am beginning to agree that DTV doesn't really care about customers with the older equipment and that is why they went with the HS-17. DTV comes out with the server/client system for new installs anyway. Plus the average customer I think would be happy with the server/client because they probably don't know about the HR-24, H-24 and H-25.


I've never understood why people think not holding back new equipments abilities to keep old equipment more relevant in their offerings means they don't care about customers.

If you have an older dvr, You have a device that still does today what it did when you first got it and probably more.

That doesn't entitle it to work with the next generation of equipment. It won't be as powerful so at some point the platform has to be maintained and not progressed. That's where we are with non genie stuff.


----------



## inkahauts

NR4P said:


> For the H25, I was suggesting moving that vs the HR54. Obviously I wasn't clear.
> 
> Aside from tailgating I see other reasons for Directv to have to do something given the HS17 client only limitation. Example, someone with a large property, even a farm, with multiple buildings means sometimes multiple dishes are the only choice. So the HS17 architecture of 1 per address doesn't work.
> 
> And sooner or later I imagine a big shot of AT&T who has a mansion is going to ask why he/she needs separate accounts?
> 
> For any product, there are always "gotchas" that surface later. Officially called "edge" cases and they bite you. I suspect there may be a way of joining multiple accounts someday for the issues as they get to be a big enough pain. Time will tell.


It's the massive systems that are my question as well. How do you tell a multi millionaire he can't have more than seven of his 20 tvs on in his 10 million dollar house at the same time and expect to keep him as a client? But I think we will see a solution to that before the hr54 and hr24s all disappear. Which is probably five years or more away.

This is a first generation device after all.


----------



## hancox

inkahauts said:


> Yep. I won't call it a pile. It's excellent imho. But it's not an option if you need over the air. Pip just hasn't panned out ever it seems for anyone. Manufacturer wise.
> 
> And it would be a bit more to carry but it would work for a tailgate. Especially if you had an RVU tv. I mean if you are already taking a dish what's one more small box by comparison?
> 
> But today I'd think that streaming your channels over the air and casting them to your tv via an appletv or chomecast type device would be much easier than lugging a dish to a game anyway. I know it may not work everywhere or if you don't have unlimited data but for those places that do...


No way...

1) Right now, I can subtract TV from one room, and successfully tailgate. In a scenario where i take the HS-17 tailgating, my whole house is out. No thanks.

2) 90% of my tailgating TV watching is DBS only (ESPN, mainly). Stream/casting in a congested environment is a no-go - there simply isn't the cellular bandwidth to accommodate.

The worst thing is - all of the uses i have are differentiation points for DirecTV. Take away tailgating and OTA integration, and I might as well go to cable, especially with bundling.


----------



## Rich

dpeters11 said:


> Honestly, I don't think the majority of customers need that kind of thing. *I'm actually thinking the vast majority would be fine with the HS17 tuners*.


Yup, Joe Sixpack and his ilk won't know enough to complain. Sadly some of my family is like Joe.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Christopher Gould said:


> Basically if you take out the genie extra turners and say the average house has 4 rooms like they push in ads the old 2 turner dvr would give you 8 turners one more then the 7 this does.


While my 44 does work very well I could easily do without it, the only real benefit I see in the Genies is the 5 tuners. Makes a wonderful server, not good to use to watch sports.

Rich


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> First that isn't what abnormal house has. Most old setup houses before genies have one DVR and then three h24 type receivers. They don't have four DVRs. So they have a max of five tuners and only two record.
> 
> Normal all genie installs have the same amount of tuners but having the five tuners pooled is far more efficient.
> 
> Then there is the hs17. Besides now being able to drive seven tvs on its own over just four...
> 
> The seven tuners on the hs17 are also far more efficient than the 2 each on for old DVRs. On the old DVRs you'd have to make sure all programs are setup orderly and don't cause conflicts especially with over the air stations. With the hs17 you can just about set recordings in any order and have no worries. The best way is simply make sure all local channel programs are at the top of the series list and all the rest below and you are done. No running around making sure you aren't duplicating recordings and so forth... almost no worries about order either.
> 
> Now with that said... if you where separating everyone's recordings and one person was wanting to record three shows off local channels at the same time they where totally out of luck. Not so anymore.
> 
> Really only issue that pops up is if you watch so much sports you often have more than two sports programs recording and five local channels at the same time at night. You would have conflicts after the first two sports programs. Otherwise seven tuners gets everything.
> 
> The only real issue I have is the series link limit of 100.


All the eggs in one basket doesn't bother you? Sure bothers me.

Rich


----------



## Rich

raott said:


> IMO, while this may be a good solution for 99% of new installs, *it doesn't seem to be a workable solution for much of the current customer base who have HR products. Is anyone here really going to turn in their HR's to go to this solution*? Many, if not most of whom, have already sunk somewhere between $99 - $199 for the pleasure of leasing?
> 
> Are we looking at a time, 18 months down the road, if an HR44 or 54 craps out, that a customer would have to be moved to this and have to give up perfectly working DVRs to get a whole home solution? *I doubt it, but I wonder*.


If they allowed me to have two 17s I might give that a try. I've spent a good buck on my owned HRs and I can always sell them.

I'm wondering about that too. Plan for the worst. If it comes down to nickels and dimes it seems like ATT will follow the money.

Rich


----------



## Rich

hancox said:


> As someone who uses:
> 
> OTA
> PiP
> A tailgating setup
> 
> ...this thing is a steaming pile of you-know-what. I guess i need to get an HR54 before they go out of production, so i can be 4k future-proofed. Sigh.


Before you do that, have you ever looked at the insides of the HRs and the Genies? When you open up a 24-500 you see a motherboard with plenty of visible parts. When you open up a 24-100, the last of the 24s, you see a flat motherboard. That's a pretty good sign that the production run is over. When you open up a 44 you see what you see in a 24-500. You know there's more to come. The 54s have that flat motherboard, a sure sign that the production run is over. Not sure I'd trust the 54s. Oddly the 24-100s are very stable DVRs.

Rich


----------



## hancox

Rich said:


> Before you do that, have you ever looked at the insides of the HRs and the Genies? When you open up a 24-500 you see a motherboard with plenty of visible parts. When you open up a 24-100, the last of the 24s, you see a flat motherboard. That's a pretty good sign that the production run is over. When you open up a 44 you see what you see in a 24-500. You know there's more to come. The 54s have that flat motherboard, a sure sign that the production run is over. Not sure I'd trust the 54s. Oddly the 24-100s are very stable DVRs.
> 
> Rich


right, but my end game is to get 4K. If my options to do so dwindle over time (i.e. HS17 only)...

I don't want to upgrade yet, but this may push me more than i wanted...


----------



## Rich

hancox said:


> right, but my end game is to get 4K. If my options to do so dwindle over time (i.e. HS17 only)...
> 
> I don't want to upgrade yet, but this may push me more than i wanted...


Yeah, I get that. Doesn't seem like waiting will do any good. I just don't like all the strings that come with D*'s 4K setup.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

hancox said:


> No way...
> 
> 1) Right now, I can subtract TV from one room, and successfully tailgate. In a scenario where i take the HS-17 tailgating, my whole house is out. No thanks.
> 
> 2) 90% of my tailgating TV watching is DBS only (ESPN, mainly). Stream/casting in a congested environment is a no-go - there simply isn't the cellular bandwidth to accommodate.
> 
> The worst thing is - all of the uses i have are differentiation points for DirecTV. Take away tailgating and OTA integration, and I might as well go to cable, especially with bundling.


Honestly leaving you able to watch tv at two locations at the same time is not a consideration at DIRECTV since it's against terms.

I'm curios if you have ever tried streaming? I know a lot of major sports venues here in Los Angeles have obviously had their capacity bumped up because it works at some of my stadiums. But I can see how it might not at others. Eventually I bet it's not an issue. Unless you live in Oakland.

Hey I get it. Their new stuff is far more versatile in some ways but severely lacking in a couple others. They seemed to believe it's ok to sacrifice one for the other even though I see no reason they needed too. But costs win out every time so they made the decisions based on cost imho. Otherwise we would see a small single 4k receiver that will work on the same account imho.

I think it's atrocious thy are leaving over the air off and yet they still don't have every single local market live.


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> All the eggs in one basket doesn't bother you? Sure bothers me.
> 
> Rich


I do not duplicate record anything except laker games. Never have never will unless it's for some sort of test.

If I lose a DVR so be it. I'll find the content another way if I want it bad enough. Lakers games the only thing paramount to me. Even the other teams I watch I could miss a game and not care.

You had a heck of a one for years so I get why you personally worry. But when was the last time now that you even lost a DVR? And wouldn't be able to find all the stuff on it easily via Netflix within six months or so?


----------



## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> ...Lakers games the only thing paramount to me. Even the other teams I watch I could miss a game and not care. ...


Whew ... admire that you can have that kind of loyalty in this area nowadays though ...

Man that team is bad ... 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Billzebub

NR4P said:


> A marketing brochure rarely highlights "no's, not, cannot". On the mention of not allowing any other HR combinations, it is a highlighted, bulleted point. Along with 6 others items that are not hype, but detractors in some respects. This one seems balanced.


DIRECTV has taken its Genie product family to the next level with the Genie 2.

This is balanced?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Billzebub said:


> DIRECTV has taken its Genie product family to the next level with the Genie 2.


Hardly. They removed HDMI output, removed OTA support (the AM21 won't work with it), only added 2 tuners and can only support 2 4K streams and made it a weird form factor (read: not stackable). The Hopper 3 is what the Genie 2 should have been (except with DirecTVs bandwidth). No 4K content except PPV/VOD and some special programming. Plus, we haven't see the fee schedule. I'm willing to bet DirecTV hides the cost of this in an outlet fee or increased DVR fee. No way they are giving it out for free with no monthly fee.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I'm very perplexed by the seven channels. I think they need to turn on those other four and make it 11. I can't see that ever having issues myself. I don't see 4k being limited to two being an issue though.


The way I understand it (and those who have tested and it found something to contradict this, please let me know) is the following:

1) The HS17 contains two 8 tuner chips, so it can do 16 tuners, or a maximum of 15 SWM channels plus one reserved for guide data.

2) The (IMHO, dumb) way Directv is doing software bonding means that the SWM channels used for 4K have to be totally separate from the ones used for HD. That implies that while the HS17 has 15 SWM tuners, it would NOT be able to do "either 15 HD channels or 7 4K channels" as it theoretically could if the two overlapped - which they could if they were using DVB-S2X for bonding.

3) Directv specifies the limits as 7 clients and 7 recordings. I interpret that as meaning 7 RVU streams and 7 active "tuners". Seven RVU streams means 7 active clients / RVU TVs that are turned on and receiving anything from the Genie: live TV, a recording, or an on demand stream - or an OTA stream if we are lucky enough that they introduce a new OTA tuner for the HS17. The reason I put "tuners" in quotes is I'm speaking in the abstract - one tuner counts as decoding one program, whether that program is SD, HD or 4K, and whether it is being recorded or being streamed via RVU to a client / RVU TV.

4) Those limits mean you could record 7 things if all 7 clients were watching old recordings, or on-demand, or turned off, but if you started watching live TV on one of them and it wasn't one of the 7 things being recorded there would be a conflict (I guess it would ask which recording to stop to free up a tuner) It also means you could record 0 things if all 7 clients were watching live TV, and what you wanted to record wasn't one of those 7 things. (I'm idly wondering whether it is smart enough to share tuners, so if you wanted to watch the same live program on 3 clients if it would one tuner in the HS17 for all three...I'm guessing not, but that would help some people)

5) With 4K tuners being separate, when you watch/record a 4K program it uses two different SWM channels. With two 4K "tuners" currently allocated that means it consumes 11 SWM channels today (7 + 2*2) It is marked SWM-15 and has 15 actual tuners, so if I had to guess I'd say there's a good chance they'll do a software update down the road that allows it to watch/record four 4K programs at once instead of just two by giving access to those four currently unused SWM channels. If they want to do a future Genie 2 with the ability to watch/record 4K programs on all 7 "tuners" it would need 21 SWM channels (three 8 tuner chips, and would consume all 21 tuners on a SWM 21 LNB - perhaps that's why it is limited to only 21 when the chip it uses can handle more?)

What I'm saying is, like I had speculated some time ago, I think they are limiting the number of HD "tuners" to 7 because that's all they will ever be able to do in a model that allows having all 4K clients connected to it. You will always have 7 "tuners" and 7 "streams" with the Genie 2 family, even in future models that allow more of those to be 4K.

Did anyone who did CE testing have 7 clients? If not, figuring out exactly how the limits work will be kind of tricky...


----------



## slice1900

NR4P said:


> For the H25, I was suggesting moving that vs the HR54. Obviously I wasn't clear.
> 
> Aside from tailgating I see other reasons for Directv to have to do something given the HS17 client only limitation. Example, someone with a large property, even a farm, with multiple buildings means sometimes multiple dishes are the only choice. So the HS17 architecture of 1 per address doesn't work.
> 
> And sooner or later I imagine a big shot of AT&T who has a mansion is going to ask why he/she needs separate accounts?
> 
> For any product, there are always "gotchas" that surface later. Officially called "edge" cases and they bite you. I suspect there may be a way of joining multiple accounts someday for the issues as they get to be a big enough pain. Time will tell.


If they're going to make exceptions for anyone, pretty sure a "big shot of AT&T" falls under that category


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I wonder how soon DTV would want everyone on the server/client model?


It would start first with new customers, just like how they did with SD. So I wouldn't begin to panic until people report here that HS17 is the only thing being allowed for new customers. I still think before that happens they'll allow more than one on an account so it will be a non-issue.


----------



## patmurphey

There is nothing saying that you can't watch/record multiple channels from one tuner if on the same transponder. Dish did that with the 4 networks with Prime Time Anytime later expanded to 24/7.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> As for multiple genies, it just doesn't work right. Period. There are problems with them getting along on the same network. Big ones. And with the current generation there is also billing issues.


The HS17 associates with its clients differently, so neither the "getting along on the same network" or "billing issues" should be a problem.



inkahauts said:


> I'm very perplexed by the seven channels. I think they need to turn on those other four and make it 11. I can't see that ever having issues myself. I don't see 4k being limited to two being an issue though.


Like I said in another post, I think the choice to limit to 7 was deliberate. If they turn on the other four it will be to allow handling four 4K programs at once instead of only two.


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Hardly. They removed HDMI output, removed OTA support (the AM21 won't work with it), only added 2 tuners and can only support 2 4K streams and made it a weird form factor (read: not stackable). The Hopper 3 is what the Genie 2 should have been (except with DirecTVs bandwidth). No 4K content except PPV/VOD and some special programming. Plus, we haven't see the fee schedule. I'm willing to bet DirecTV hides the cost of this in an outlet fee or increased DVR fee. No way they are giving it out for free with no monthly fee.


It will be the "advanced receiver" in the $25 advanced receiver fee. That's probably why they rolled all the separate charges into one fee, and started charging for the first TV. The question will be what happens if they allow a second. Will that be another $25 whack, or will there be a lower fee for getting a second HS17?

It would barely cost more to make an HS17 and client than it costs to make an HR54, so why do you think they're going to screw you on the fees? They're greatly simplifying their support model with the HS17 - they only have to concern themselves with an HS17 and not various mixes of hardware and only have clients to worry about as far as HDMI/HDCP issues. It is easy to see it will cost less to support a customer with an HS17 than it costs to support today's customers, especially those who have H2x/HR2x gear in addition to a Genie and clients.


----------



## Bill Broderick

slice1900 said:


> Like I said in another post, I think the choice to limit to 7 was deliberate. If they turn on the other four it will be to allow handling four 4K programs at once instead of only two.


According to the Edgecutter First Look, *"It can Handle two 4K streams at a time either recording or streaming (Record 2, Record 1/Stream 1 or Stream 2)"*. So, unlike HD, where you can be recording 7 different programs while you are streaming 7 different previously recorded programs, watching a previously recorded 4K program is going to limit your ability to record multiple 4K programs. I'm guessing that, should more 4K content become available, they may just segregate between 4K recording and streaming, so that you can record and view 2 4K programs at any time, regardless of whether other recordings or viewings are taking place.

Yes, it would be a "waste" of channels. But, it would make things far less confusing for people of the average household. Having different "rules" for HD content vs 4K content, with regard to recording vs viewing could a customer service nightmare.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Christopher Gould said:


> I believe this is what I wrote.
> 
> I was waiting to upgrade my HR34 to 4k and HR21s.


Yes. In English speaking countries, when you say that you want to upgrade A to B and C, the result of your upgrade is B and C. So, "upgrade my HR34 to 4K and HR21's" would leave you with 4K and HR21's.

What you trying to say is that you want to upgrade A to B and C to D (upgrade my HR34 to 4k and HR21's to HR24's).

I was just basing my reply on what you wrote. I apologize that I misunderstood.


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> I think I am beginning to agree that DTV doesn't really care about customers with the older equipment and that is why they went with the HS-17. DTV comes out with the server/client system for new installs anyway. Plus the average customer I think would be happy with the server/client because they probably don't know about the HR-24, H-24 and H-25.


DIRECTV is not forcing you to give up your current equipment. You can be sure you can keep your current equipment for many years to come.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Agreed....
> 
> It's essentially the "JSP factor" and what satisfies them which comprises the majority of subs. unfortunately that drives the process.
> 
> So right now, it's just "too bad" for the "edge" folks of tailgaters, OTA users, or those needing two separate dishes ...
> 
> You're stuck with legacy equipment and scrounging around on e-bay for stuff like AM21s for now at least ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


If I was DIRECTV I wouldn't mind losing those edge customers if it meant that I would save sh*t ton of money by installing the new system. They could go to cable or Dish.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

inkahauts said:


> Depends... Seven tuners on one machine is better than probably 10 on five different 2 tuner machines. So much more efficient.


Not always. I have my system divided in two with two DVRs in the basement plus 3 in the main floor, each with their own playlist. Could not do that with the 17.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

hancox said:


> No way...
> 
> 1) Right now, I can subtract TV from one room, and successfully tailgate. In a scenario where i take the HS-17 tailgating, my whole house is out. No thanks.
> 
> 2) 90% of my tailgating TV watching is DBS only (ESPN, mainly). Stream/casting in a congested environment is a no-go - there simply isn't the cellular bandwidth to accommodate.
> 
> The worst thing is - all of the uses i have are differentiation points for DirecTV. Take away tailgating and OTA integration, and I might as well go to cable, especially with bundling.


Your are using the system in a unsupported way, so then don't be surprised if that ever gets taken away.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

inkahauts said:


> It's the massive systems that are my question as well. How do you tell a multi millionaire he can't have more than seven of his 20 tvs on in his 10 million dollar house at the same time and expect to keep him as a client? But I think we will see a solution to that before the hr54 and hr24s all disappear. Which is probably five years or more away.
> 
> This is a first generation device after all.


Me here wonders the same thing as well. But thinking is they can keep what they have now until a new genie comes out that supports more clients.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hancox

peds48 said:


> Your are using the system in a unsupported way, so then don't be surprised if that ever gets taken away.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


*Maybe* for tailgating, although that's always been a grey area. OTA is certainly not.


----------



## peds48

hancox said:


> *Maybe* for tailgating, although that's always been a grey area. .


Exactly what I meant.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hancox

peds48 said:


> Exactly what I meant.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well yes, but it's not like using a supported bit helped me at all, so what's your point, exactly?

Again - OTA integration is a differentiator. Dropping it makes DirecTV less sticky for me, and I'm clearly not the only one.


----------



## James Long

HoTat2 said:


> But OTOH, does DISH allow you to place a Wally or something that you can take with you for tailgating or camping on a Hopper account or do you have to pay a separate accout?


I can't remember if they stopped that with the Hopper 3, but with the original Hopper and Hopper w/ Sling DISH allowed one single tuner receiver on the account for tailgating.

Perhaps "competitive forces" will get AT&T|DIRECTV to expand the HS-17, allow for multiple devices and a "tailgater" receiver. This is the first time in a long time when DIRECTV has had a maxed out system with less tuners than DISH. Otherwise the HS-17 and clients will be relegated to the "small system" installations. And the HR-54 with additional receivers and DVRs attached will remain the solution for more robust installs.

That being said, DISH survived with six tuner households (Hopper and Hopper w/Sling) or five tuner households (Hopper plus Super Joey) so the HS-17 can replace and compete at that level of service. AT&T|DIRECTV's competition against DISH's "conflict free TV" with 16 tuners (and all clients) just isn't the HS-17 - at this time. But the concept of having two HS-17s with clients paired specifically with one or the other is workable.


----------



## peds48

hancox said:


> Well yes, but it's not like using a supported bit helped me at all, so what's your point, exactly?
> 
> .


Point is that you can't complain when an unsupported feature gets taken away when comparing two products.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

Bill Broderick said:


> According to the Edgecutter First Look, *"It can Handle two 4K streams at a time either recording or streaming (Record 2, Record 1/Stream 1 or Stream 2)"*. So, unlike HD, where you can be recording 7 different programs while you are streaming 7 different previously recorded programs, watching a previously recorded 4K program is going to limit your ability to record multiple 4K programs. I'm guessing that, should more 4K content become available, they may just segregate between 4K recording and streaming, so that you can record and view 2 4K programs at any time, regardless of whether other recordings or viewings are taking place.
> 
> Yes, it would be a "waste" of channels. But, it would make things far less confusing for people of the average household. Having different "rules" for HD content vs 4K content, with regard to recording vs viewing could a customer service nightmare.


Well, I wonder exactly how thoroughly they tested that, given the dearth of 4K content.

Has anyone tried watching two previously recorded 4K programs while recording a live 4K program? If that exact scenario has been tried and failed then that would indeed be a limitation on 4K that doesn't exist with HD, but I wouldn't be surprised if this may be down to either poor wording in the writeup or something that's not been well tested since there's hardly ever any 4K programming to watch...


----------



## RAD

slice1900 said:


> Well, I wonder exactly how thoroughly they tested that, given the dearth of 4K content.
> 
> Has anyone tried watching two previously recorded 4K programs while recording a live 4K program? If that exact scenario has been tried and failed then that would indeed be a limitation on 4K that doesn't exist with HD, but I wouldn't be surprised if this may be down to either poor wording in the writeup or something that's not been well tested since there's hardly ever any 4K programming to watch...


Well I didn't have any issues while testing but just to make sure:
-Started playback on one 4K recording on one C61K/UN49KS8000
-Started playback on one 4K recording on one C61K/UN65KS8000
-Started a recording on channel 104 which is the 4K 'demo' channel
-Started a recording on channel 105 which is the 4K PPP channel

Everything is working just duckie.


----------



## cpalmer2k

Keep in mind reverse band isn't enabled yet though. That scenario likely would fail if the 4K channels actually used Reverse band already


----------



## carl6

Hard to say what will happen when they implement reverse band. As to what the capabilities are, we provided the information we were given, and got as much clarification as we were able to get in the process. We tested what we could, within the limitations and capabilities of the individual testers. Personally, I've only got one 4K client and one 4K television, which limits what I can test. And with only one "regular" 4K channel (and not being willing to pay for a 4K ppv), I'm only recording one 4K program at any given time.


----------



## Christopher Gould

hancox said:


> *Maybe* for tailgating, although that's always been a grey area. OTA is certainly not.


I have never need to take my directv anywhere, but I can seem to remember 20 years ago. Long before local channels directv use to advertise your ability to take your 18" dish anywhere you wanted too.


----------



## inkahauts

HoTat2 said:


> Whew ... admire that you can have that kind of loyalty in this area nowadays though ...
> 
> Man that team is bad ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I have either watched recorded or live, listened on the radio, or been to in person for every regular season game and playoff game since sometime in the late 80s. They are just my team.

And as bad as they are, man they have some good talent. Some people don't think so but if you pay attention they do. It's four years off from being mature though. They show these incredible flashes. Then look awful. Plus Luke is tanking like a mastermind now...


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> The way I understand it (and those who have tested and it found something to contradict this, please let me know) is the following:
> 
> 1) The HS17 contains two 8 tuner chips, so it can do 16 tuners, or a maximum of 15 SWM channels plus one reserved for guide data.
> 
> 2) The (IMHO, dumb) way Directv is doing software bonding means that the SWM channels used for 4K have to be totally separate from the ones used for HD. That implies that while the HS17 has 15 SWM tuners, it would NOT be able to do "either 15 HD channels or 7 4K channels" as it theoretically could if the two overlapped - which they could if they were using DVB-S2X for bonding.
> 
> 3) Directv specifies the limits as 7 clients and 7 recordings. I interpret that as meaning 7 RVU streams and 7 active "tuners". Seven RVU streams means 7 active clients / RVU TVs that are turned on and receiving anything from the Genie: live TV, a recording, or an on demand stream - or an OTA stream if we are lucky enough that they introduce a new OTA tuner for the HS17. The reason I put "tuners" in quotes is I'm speaking in the abstract - one tuner counts as decoding one program, whether that program is SD, HD or 4K, and whether it is being recorded or being streamed via RVU to a client / RVU TV.
> 
> 4) Those limits mean you could record 7 things if all 7 clients were watching old recordings, or on-demand, or turned off, but if you started watching live TV on one of them and it wasn't one of the 7 things being recorded there would be a conflict (I guess it would ask which recording to stop to free up a tuner) It also means you could record 0 things if all 7 clients were watching live TV, and what you wanted to record wasn't one of those 7 things. (I'm idly wondering whether it is smart enough to share tuners, so if you wanted to watch the same live program on 3 clients if it would one tuner in the HS17 for all three...I'm guessing not, but that would help some people)
> 
> 5) With 4K tuners being separate, when you watch/record a 4K program it uses two different SWM channels. With two 4K "tuners" currently allocated that means it consumes 11 SWM channels today (7 + 2*2) It is marked SWM-15 and has 15 actual tuners, so if I had to guess I'd say there's a good chance they'll do a software update down the road that allows it to watch/record four 4K programs at once instead of just two by giving access to those four currently unused SWM channels. If they want to do a future Genie 2 with the ability to watch/record 4K programs on all 7 "tuners" it would need 21 SWM channels (three 8 tuner chips, and would consume all 21 tuners on a SWM 21 LNB - perhaps that's why it is limited to only 21 when the chip it uses can handle more?)
> 
> What I'm saying is, like I had speculated some time ago, I think they are limiting the number of HD "tuners" to 7 because that's all they will ever be able to do in a model that allows having all 4K clients connected to it. You will always have 7 "tuners" and 7 "streams" with the Genie 2 family, even in future models that allow more of those to be 4K.
> 
> Did anyone who did CE testing have 7 clients? If not, figuring out exactly how the limits work will be kind of tricky...


You very much misunderstand why I'm perplexed. Maybe I worded it wrong. I'm perplexed by the four tuners doing absolutely nothing.

There are seven for Hi Definition. Four reserved for 4k. And one for guide. There are four not assigned to do anything they just sit there.

Yes someone did have seven clients. I tested this unit too ya know. 

I just realized I did not check on tuner sharing. I'll do that latter and let you know.

Seven is how many channels it can record or show live.... 2 at 4k. Plus one on demand either downloading or streaming.

Seven is also the number of clients it can drive. The clients can be rvu or minis. If you are streaming to a mobile device that counts as one.

As to what you can watch on those seven tvs it's the same as any other DVR. The seven can be watching any combination of live or recorded programs. Knowing those live ones have to be considered in conjunction with any recordings happening or they will view a recording live. Oh and limited to two 4k sessions at a time.

I personally don't see any reason they can't use the tuners dynamically for Hi Definition or 4k and that the other four should be on for Hi Definition now. In the system screens it does show all 15 tuners and all set for satellite and record. It just doesn't do it.


----------



## Bigg

At first glance, this thing is really, really impressive. If you look back at DirecTV's HD technology, you can basically look at this as the fifth generation of major technological advances in delivering more and better HD and DVR functionality in less than 15 years (not perfectly chronological):

1. HR10-250/Phase 3 dish- HD
2. HR20/AT9/AU9-MPEG-4/Ka band
3. SWiM/DECA/MRV
4. Genie- Server-client/WVB
5. Genie 2- headless server/PI/WVB

If you think back to the HR20s, initially with no multiroom functionality running 2 coax cables to each location off of a big multiswitch with 4 cables to the dish, then the advent of SWiM switches, with a PI, a BB DECA, and DECAs at each DVR for MRV. What a mess. Now roll forward to SWiM LNBs and Genie, and look how much stuff they packed into the HS-17. It's pretty impressive that most installations won't need any equipment other than the dish, a SWiM splitter, and the HS-17 and C41/61ks.

However, SolidSignal did sum it up well, in that they removed a lot of extra functionality, much of which is unnecessary to make it simpler and easier to install for the 95% of users that will be fine with it. As much as I hate caller ID on the screen, I think they should have kept that around, at least as an add-on, as people really eat that stuff up, and Comcast can do it trivially via IP. I'm not sure if it could be done with TDM switches at the CO in their non-U-Verse 21 state ILEC territory, but they should be able to do that via software in locations that are using U-Verse voice, or even for AT&T Mobility cell phones, as this stuff is all on an IP network, it's a tiny data hit. And for people with other landline providers, they should offer some sort of add-on device to add caller ID functionality, whether via Wi-Fi or DECA. But that's really the smallest issue here.

The lack of configuration options just plain sucks. At this point, they should be able to allow any combination of anything on there, as long as there are enough SWiM tuners. They also are really falling short of what DISH can do, in two different directions. Their core DVR functionality isn't nearly as good. DISH can record 16 things at once (19 with PTAT?) on a single box, and they have the Sports Bar mode, both of which would be great for heavy users, or just as marketing points. In the other direction, DirecTV is lacking Netflix and OTA integration. Arguably, OTA is more important, since people want a unified DVR experience with OTA. The AM-21 is a pathetic excuse for OTA functionality. They need OTA functionality, as it increases the stickiness factor for those users who want it. If they push some of those users to invest in a separate OTA system, that does exactly the opposite, and might encourage them to cut the cord, or switch to cable, since they have a separate DVR for OTA anyway. Lastly, while everything has Netflix, and DirecTV wouldn't do anything that's much better than anyone else, both Comcast and DISH have it built in, and it makes the service more sticky, as people associate a single interface with all their services.



cpalmer2k said:


> I think the main reason DirecTV doesn't want to allow more than one Genie per account is the risk of people bill splitting. If they allowed two Genies (or more) per account people easily could share with others and split the bill. Their move to the mini-client concept I think is as much about eliminating stuff like that as it is about simplifying things. I do think not having more tuners is a mistake though. The Genie just doesn't compare to the Hopper 3. It has 16 tuners, PIP, the Sportsbar mode for 4K TVs. I was hoping for much, much more from DirecTV this time.


I disagree about the bill splitting. I think the biggest risk there is people sharing with their neighbors, which I'm pretty sure is already happening with the C41Ws. If you live in a multifamily or a condo or apartment, you could just give a C41W to your neighbor. You'd have to share the DVR (unless the address it was installed at uses an HR24 and leaves the HR44 for the neighbor), but some people would be willing to do that considering how high DirecTV's pricing has gotten. I agree about the Hopper 3. Unfortunately, DISH's content is pretty underwhelming (I'm biased as being from CT, where DISH does not have several of our sports channels). DirecTV really should have been able to match that feature set, especially considering it's sports-centric programming and marketing.



NR4P said:


> And sooner or later I imagine a big shot of AT&T who has a mansion is going to ask why he/she needs separate accounts?


If they have a huge mansion, then they can just put the 7 C61ks in their central rack, and use their Crestron fiber distribution system from their HDMI matrix switch to their TVs. There are definitely situations in the middle, however, where you would want more capabilities than what the HS17 alone can do. Comcast's X1 can have 3 main DVRs in one household, TiVo can have 10 (maybe more?) units on the same network, DISH can handle 3 Hopper 3's, the only thing that can't get to at least 18 tuners these days is U-Verse. It would be pricey today, but I suppose you could have an HR54 and 7 HR24s fed off of a SWiM-21 LNB.



inkahauts said:


> As for multiple genies, it just doesn't work right. Period. There are problems with them getting along on the same network. Big ones. And with the current generation there is also billing issues. While they can get around it they'd have to spend way to much money to do so for how few they fee would want multiple genies.
> 
> I think their reasoning in that is flawed, just as it is for why we don't have profiles or folders for our recordings yet. But I fully see that as their theory.


If there really is a technical reason why they can't get multiple Genies or Genie 2s on one account, that reflects extremely poorly on AT&T as a company, either in ability or sheer laziness. This is the largest telecom on the planet, and they can't figure out some basic computer networking concepts that have been around for decades? You can have 2 or 3 TiVos, each with their own set of TiVo Minis, and they don't get confused. I don't see any technical reason whatsoever why they can't support a virtually infinite number of Genies, Genie 2s, DVRs, and receivers on the same system provided that the user wants to pay for the installation and equipment required to get that all up and running. They need to develop the SWiM switches for MDUs that support RB anyway, why not allow them to build bigger systems for residential use?



> However I have to say, seven channels catches everything I throw at it unless I throw too many sports recordings at it on a night where there's also something on every major local channel. And it will do the same for everyone else too. But 11 means zero sports issues too.


It's a total kludge, but if you wanted more tuners for locals, you could add an OTA TiVo or Tablo or something to offload that from D*. That's the wrong answer for D* though. They should be making the product more sticky, not less sticky.



peds48 said:


> If I was DIRECTV I wouldn't mind losing those edge customers if it meant that I would save sh*t ton of money by installing the new system. They could go to cable or Dish.


That's a false choice. The way this system is designed is great for 90-95% of people, and will save AT&T a crapload of money in doing it. But they should also support larger combinations of Genies, Genie 2s, HR24s, H25s, etc, and charge for installation accordingly. That way they can have their cake and eat it too. The only decision that's really driven by combining all these functions is the bizarre shape- you need the bizarre shape if you want to bake in the WVB.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> The HS17 associates with its clients differently, so neither the "getting along on the same network" or "billing issues" should be .


You would think... but you'd be wrong... trust me on this one.  I thought the same thing but nope...


----------



## inkahauts

peds48 said:


> Not always. I have my system divided in two with two DVRs in the basement plus 3 in the main floor, each with their own playlist. Could not do that with the 17.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm talking about recording. I think their way of filtering a playlist is awful and has been since the day Whole Home Service rolled out.


----------



## Bigg

Also, I can't believe no one has done user profiles on a DVR. Such an obvious thing to do! TiVo, DirecTV, DISH, Comcast, no one has bothered to do it!


----------



## inkahauts

cpalmer2k said:


> Keep in mind reverse band isn't enabled yet though. That scenario likely would fail if the 4K channels actually used Reverse band already


Why? There's zero reason to think that. That's why they have the extra reserved tuners for bonded transponders.


----------



## Bill Broderick

inkahauts said:


> Why? There's zero reason to think that. That's why they have the extra reserved tuners for bonded transponders.


As per Carl, the information, regarding the fact that you can only do 2 things at a time) 2 recordings, 2 playback or 1 of each) with 4K, was provided to the First Look team (presumably by DirecTV). So, there is certainly more than "zero reason" to believe that this will be true once reverse band begins to be used.

It may not end up being the case. But, based on the information that we've been provided, it's definitely a possibility.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I do not duplicate record anything except laker games. Never have never will unless it's for some sort of test.
> 
> If I lose a DVR so be it. I'll find the content another way if I want it bad enough. Lakers games the only thing paramount to me. Even the other teams I watch I could miss a game and not care.
> 
> You had a heck of a one for years so I get why you personally worry. But when was the last time now that you even lost a DVR? And wouldn't be able to find all the stuff on it easily via Netflix within six months or so?


I can't remember the last time I lost a DVR. I do remember losing a lot of them thru the years, tho. That soured me. Can't get past it. What I really like about sites like NF and Amazon is there is no reason to worry about hardware problems. The content is just there. I haven't set any new series links in quite some time. I know just about all the content I want on D* will be available on a streamer in the very near future.

Don't forget I've been time shifting since I got my first VCR back in the '80s. I lost so many VCRs and had several backups in boxes waiting for failures. The advent of the DVRs fixed that mess. I agree that failures have practically stopped and I keep my DVRs in pretty good shape. Haven't even had an HDD go in quite some time. But that doesn't mean that it can't happen and I certainly wouldn't trust the 44 I have to faithfully record my Yankees games or the Jets and Giants games or boxing matches. After what happened to the championship game of the WBC...well, that was a wakeup call for me. If I hadn't recorded that game on 3 other HRs I would have had to read about it.

Rich


----------



## Rich

slice1900 said:


> Well, I wonder exactly how thoroughly they tested that, given the dearth of 4K content.
> 
> Has anyone tried watching two previously recorded 4K programs while recording a live 4K program? If that exact scenario has been tried and failed then that would indeed be a limitation on 4K that doesn't exist with HD, but I wouldn't be surprised if this may be down to either poor wording in the writeup or something that's not been well tested since there's hardly ever any 4K programming to watch...


Think this might be a bit of fiasco when it's released? The first looks on the 22-100 were optimistic and that was a dud. Then came the much ballyhooed 23-700, even more of a dud.

Rich


----------



## TheRatPatrol

inkahauts said:


> Pip just hasn't panned out ever it seems for anyone.


It seems to work fine for Dish with their sports bar mode.

If D* had a better implementation of turning it on and off more people would have used it. A simple software update could have fixed that problem a long time ago.

Oh well.


----------



## NR4P

TheRatPatrol said:


> It seems to work fine for Dish with their sports bar mode.
> 
> If D* had a better implementation of turning it on and off more people would have used it. A simple software update could have fixed that problem a long time ago.
> 
> Oh well.


Agreed, 5 button pushes to get to PIP. It was doomed from the start. I used PIP but got tired of all the button pushes to enable it. Oh and then the hidden method of switching windows. The PIP UI was a failure.


----------



## Laxguy

NR4P said:


> Agreed, 5 button pushes to get to PIP. It was doomed from the start. I used PIP but got tired of all the button pushes to enable it. Oh and then the hidden method of switching windows. The PIP UI was a failure.


Agree on the poor implementation, but why would anyone want PIP *now *when you can record all your sports programs, then FF through 5 or 6 (but watching the action in regular speed) games in the time it would take to watch two side by side with PiP? And actually see more of the two games you would have watched via PiP....?


----------



## James Long

Here is a shocker: Some people still watch live TV.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> They're greatly simplifying their support model with the HS17 - they only have to concern themselves with an HS17 and not various mixes of hardware and only have clients to worry about as far as HDMI/HDCP issues.


I agree that not allowing a mash up of various equipment will simplify the support model. On the other hand, with no HDMI output, diagnosing issues will be much more complicated. Will the installer app be available for download for such purposes? Will they enhance the customer app to be able to do a limited subset of the installer app? How will a customer change the security settings? Will they even be allowed to? Or will it be computer generated passwords only? Does it connect to your LAN via wifi? How do you give it the password? Do you have to tell the installer your password? Do I have to get a truck roll to change it in the future? etc. Maybe they'll make some of that configurable through a client? What if the server stops working for some reason and you can't connect the clients or via wifi and the red button doesn't fix it? Then a truck roll?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Laxguy said:


> Agree on the poor implementation, but why would anyone want PIP *now *when you can record all your sports programs, then FF through 5 or 6 (but watching the action in regular speed) games in the time it would take to watch two side by side with PiP? And actually see more of the two games you would have watched via PiP....?


I used to use PIP back in the day to channel surf on the 2nd tuner and know when the program came back from commercial. Now its obsolete.



Laxguy said:


> "Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.


I thought it meant you love airports. Ok, probably only inkahauts will get that...


----------



## inkahauts

Bill Broderick said:


> As per Carl, the information, regarding the fact that you can only do 2 things at a time) 2 recordings, 2 playback or 1 of each) with 4K, was provided to the First Look team (presumably by DirecTV). So, there is certainly more than "zero reason" to believe that this will be true once reverse band begins to be used.
> 
> It may not end up being the case. But, based on the information that we've been provided, it's definitely a possibility.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


That's being misinterpreting. Read rads post further up. He just tested his once again. That statement was just about live channels off satellite. You can be recording two 4k channels and watching two previously recorded 4k programs all at the same time. They don't affect each other.

And I can't see that changing when bonded transponders hit.

For some reason people keep thinking that live/recording and playback are all the same pool on this dvr unlike any other DVR ever before. I guess we should have written it differently.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> I used to use PIP back in the day to channel surf on the 2nd tuner and know when the program came back from commercial. Now its obsolete.
> 
> I thought it meant you love airports. Ok, probably only inkahauts will get that...


Haha!


----------



## inkahauts

TheRatPatrol said:


> It seems to work fine for Dish with their sports bar mode.
> 
> If D* had a better implementation of turning it on and off more people would have used it. A simple software update could have fixed that problem a long time ago.
> 
> Oh well.


It works fine for every manufacturer. Yet no one ever seems to keep it going permanent. It's just not used enough by people to spend the time on it I think.

Granted DIRECTV's implementation was awful.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> I agree that not allowing a mash up of various equipment will simplify the support model. On the other hand, with no HDMI output, diagnosing issues will be much more complicated. Will the installer app be available for download for such purposes? Will they enhance the customer app to be able to do a limited subset of the installer app? How will a customer change the security settings? Will they even be allowed to? Or will it be computer generated passwords only? Does it connect to your LAN via wifi? How do you give it the password? Do you have to tell the installer your password? Do I have to get a truck roll to change it in the future? etc. Maybe they'll make some of that configurable through a client? What if the server stops working for some reason and you can't connect the clients or via wifi and the red button doesn't fix it? Then a truck roll?


I was waiting for you to mention this. 

You are way way way over thinking it. There's zero reason for an app and none for web access either. That would just complicate things.

Everything you can do today on a hr44 or any other DIRECTV receiver can be done with the hs17 via any client.

And actually diagnosis won't be more difficult. I've had clients for years now. There's only three reason I've ever seen for a client not connecting. The first is multiple genies and we know that won't be an issue. The second is it's physically disconnected. That's a pretty easy one to fix. The third is a frozen server. And I mean frozen that you can't even power on the hr44 or do anything with it so it required a rbr. There was zero others things you could do. Same applies to the hs17. If it's not connecting and it worked before hit the rbr because the unit froze. Or your cat ate they coax. That's the only extra trouble shooting you could possibly need after the installer leaves.

You change your wifi settings in the client menu that's the same as you do with the hr44. Only now you can do it from any client. 
It connects to your wifi or your LAN. Either. Just the same as a wdeca or a hr44 and newer. You enter your password on your own when you go through the guided steps on screen. No installer needed ever for that.

Clients that are wifi take care of themselves just as today's with a wvb do. You don't have access to their settings ever, and we never have had that access. There is an extremely easy pairing process the first time and you set up a wireless client. And that's in the menus for adding clients.

And if the server won't reboot that's no different than an HR54 not booting so yeah ship a replacement or a truck roll. But there's nothing you could ever do before. So that's nothing new either.


----------



## slice1900

RAD said:


> Well I didn't have any issues while testing but just to make sure:
> -Started playback on one 4K recording on one C61K/UN49KS8000
> -Started playback on one 4K recording on one C61K/UN65KS8000
> -Started a recording on channel 104 which is the 4K 'demo' channel
> -Started a recording on channel 105 which is the 4K PPP channel
> 
> Everything is working just duckie.


Cool, that's what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation!


----------



## slice1900

cpalmer2k said:


> Keep in mind reverse band isn't enabled yet though. That scenario likely would fail if the 4K channels actually used Reverse band already


Why? I see no reason why it should work any differently.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> You very much misunderstand why I'm perplexed. Maybe I worded it wrong. I'm perplexed by the four tuners doing absolutely nothing.
> 
> There are seven for Hi Definition. Four reserved for 4k. And one for guide. There are four not assigned to do anything they just sit there.
> 
> Yes someone did have seven clients. I tested this unit too ya know.
> 
> I just realized I did not check on tuner sharing. I'll do that latter and let you know.
> 
> Seven is how many channels it can record or show live.... 2 at 4k. Plus one on demand either downloading or streaming.
> 
> Seven is also the number of clients it can drive. The clients can be rvu or minis. If you are streaming to a mobile device that counts as one.
> 
> As to what you can watch on those seven tvs it's the same as any other DVR. The seven can be watching any combination of live or recorded programs. Knowing those live ones have to be considered in conjunction with any recordings happening or they will view a recording live. Oh and limited to two 4k sessions at a time.
> 
> I personally don't see any reason they can't use the tuners dynamically for Hi Definition or 4k and that the other four should be on for Hi Definition now. In the system screens it does show all 15 tuners and all set for satellite and record. It just doesn't do it.


Like I said, I think those four currently unused tuners (SWM channels 12-15) will be used for 4K - I predict a software update will eventually take the limit from two to four 4K channels that you can watch/record. That's unless the limit is somehow based on the capabilities of the box... I suppose if the way they are doing software bonding somehow requires doing full demodulation and error correction in software (i.e. they are grabbing data directly off the ADC) that would be pretty limiting. Otherwise, I don't see why two 1.4 GHz ARM cores couldn't handle a lot more bonded transponder pairs than that.

But if they're doing that, that's even stupider than I already thought.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> The lack of configuration options just plain sucks. At this point, they should be able to allow any combination of anything on there, as long as there are enough SWiM tuners. They also are really falling short of what DISH can do, in two different directions. Their core DVR functionality isn't nearly as good. DISH can record 16 things at once (19 with PTAT?) on a single box, and they have the Sports Bar mode, both of which would be great for heavy users, or just as marketing points. In the other direction, DirecTV is lacking Netflix and OTA integration. Arguably, OTA is more important, since people want a unified DVR experience with OTA. The AM-21 is a pathetic excuse for OTA functionality. They need OTA functionality, as it increases the stickiness factor for those users who want it. If they push some of those users to invest in a separate OTA system, that does exactly the opposite, and might encourage them to cut the cord, or switch to cable, since they have a separate DVR for OTA anyway. Lastly, while everything has Netflix, and DirecTV wouldn't do anything that's much better than anyone else, both Comcast and DISH have it built in, and it makes the service more sticky, as people associate a single interface with all their services.


You complain about the lack of OTA options and then say the AM21 is a pathetic excuse for OTA functionality (which no one here will argue) So shouldn't you conclude that dropping support for the AM21 was the right thing to do? Either they will come out with a better OTA solution, or they have decided that no OTA solution is better than one that sucks and leaves unsatisfied customers. I think we can all agree it would really look stupid having the HS17 sitting on top of an AM21, and having only two OTA tuners in a box connected to up to 7 TVs!

If Directv is going to introduce a new OTA module, it would make sense to have one capable of ATSC 3.0 so its future proofed. Chips that can handle both ATSC 1.0 & 3.0 have been available for a few months now, so maybe that's being worked on. Maybe not, perhaps Directv is dropping OTA support entirely, but supporting the AM21 on the HS17 would cost money and not lead to a whole lot of customer satisfaction since it is so limited - and that dissatisfaction only gets worse when ATSC 3.0 begins to roll out in a couple years or whatever.

The argument that "because Dish can record 16 things at once so should Directv" makes no sense. If Dish made a Hopper 4 that could record 24 things, would Directv need to match that as well? How many tuners is enough? How many customers does having the ability to record "only" 7 things at once affect out of Directv's 21 million? A couple hundred thousand? Now Sports Bar mode is nice, I'll grant that, but nothing stops Directv from doing that if they really wanted. They could use those four "unused" SWM channels inkahauts is wondering about to tune four HD channels, and ship that data to a 4K client to display in a 2x2 grid. Directv will probably figure people who want to do that can buy hardware on their own, it doesn't have to be built in.

Supporting Netflix is stupid. First, most smart TVs and set tops already support it, as does your computer, your phone, and maybe even your Blu Ray player. If you bought a smart fridge with an LCD screen on the front would you say it needs to support Netflix also? I see no evidence that Dish and Comcast supporting Netflix makes their customers more "sticky". They're probably just getting paid by Netflix. If anything, between Netflix and OTA support it might make customers think "hey we spend over half our time watching stuff we can get without Directv, maybe we should cut the cord" and be a net loss for Directv.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

NR4P said:


> Agreed, 5 button pushes to get to PIP. It was doomed from the start. I used PIP but got tired of all the button pushes to enable it. Oh and then the hidden method of switching windows. The PIP UI was a failure.


5? I count 8 to turn it on, 9 to turn it off. Well unless you press and hold the right arrow button then its 3 and 4. But still a PITA.



inkahauts said:


> It works fine for every manufacturer. Yet no one ever seems to keep it going permanent. It's just not used enough by people to spend the time on it I think.
> 
> Granted DIRECTV's implementation was awful.


Let's ask the users over at Dish.........


----------



## NR4P

slice1900 said:


> Supporting Netflix is stupid. First, most smart TVs and set tops already support it, as does your computer, your phone, and maybe even your Blu Ray player. If you bought a smart fridge with an LCD screen on the front would you say it needs to support Netflix also? I see no evidence that Dish and Comcast supporting Netflix makes their customers more "sticky". They're probably just getting paid by Netflix. If anything, between Netflix and OTA support it might make customers think "hey we spend over half our time watching stuff we can get without Directv, maybe we should cut the cord" and be a net loss for Directv.


Many, many average consumers are lost at switching inputs on TV's. Seems impossible with the techies here but it is a common problem where a consumer loses the ability to watch what they want because the TV is on the wrong input, before or after Netflix. And then you need multiple remotes too. I do know that Comcast rolls many trucks to correct simple problems like this. It saves the service provider a fortune in dumb service calls if they just build it into their own box for little cost.


----------



## James Long

slice1900 said:


> Why? I see no reason why it should work any differently.


Are current 4K channels tuned on the special paired SWM channels or the regular single transponder SWM channels?

Is DIRECTV is using the "4K" pairs for tuning any 4K channel (whether or not it is on a bonded pair)?

Does the HR54 consume 7 SWM or 5?


----------



## CraigerM

How about looking at it this way with the HS-17? Wouldn't they eventually want to phase out the H/HR equipment and just go all Headless/Server client?


James Long said:


> Here is a shocker: Some people still watch live TV.


I like watching live TV.  I mainly use the DVR to record one show while watching another.


----------



## CraigerM

NR4P said:


> Many, many average consumers are lost at switching inputs on TV's. Seems impossible with the techies here but it is a common problem where a consumer loses the ability to watch what they want because the TV is on the wrong input, before or after Netflix. And then you need multiple remotes too. I do know that Comcast rolls many trucks to correct simple problems like this. It saves the service provider a fortune in dumb service calls if they just build it into their own box for little cost.


I use CEC to automatically switch inputs.


----------



## RAD

slice1900 said:


> Supporting Netflix is stupid.


Disagree with this. Yes I have some smart TV's but I have some really dumb ones in bedrooms which would be nice to have Netflix access on.


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> How about looking at it this way? HS-17
> 
> Wouldn't they eventually want to phase out the H/HR equipment and just go all Headless/Server client?
> 
> .


It will take a while to get there, just like the second amendment, DIRECTV is not taking away your HRs 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jimmie57

RAD said:


> Disagree with this. Yes I have some smart TV's but I have some really dumb ones in bedrooms which would be nice to have Netflix access on.


Couldn't you increase their smartness by getting a Blu Ray that has internet and apps ?
I did this for my sons old Mitsubishi.


----------



## lparsons21

CraigerM said:


> I use CEC to automatically switch inputs.


CEC has its own share of issues because implementations are not all equal.


----------



## Bill Broderick

jimmie57 said:


> Couldn't you increase their smartness by getting a Blu Ray that has internet and apps ?
> I did this for my sons old Mitsubishi.


You'd be in the same boat as having apps on the TV. Devices for which apps are a secondary feature (TV's, Blu-ray players, etc..., as opposed devices dedicated to apps) Roku, Apple TV, Fire, etc...) are more likely to stop supporting upgrades of those apps before the life of those devices are over.

So, while Netflix might be great on your Smart TV (or Blu-ray player) today (and for the next few years), you can't count on that being true 5 or 6 years from now.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## dpeters11

Bill Broderick said:


> So, while Netflix might be great on your Smart TV (or Blu-ray player) today (and for the next few years), you can't count on that being true 5 or 6 years from now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Or Youtube on DirecTV DVRs.


----------



## jimmie57

Bill Broderick said:


> You'd be in the same boat as having apps on the TV. Devices for which apps are a secondary feature (TV's, Blu-ray players, etc..., as opposed devices dedicated to apps) Roku, Apple TV, Fire, etc...) are more likely to stop supporting upgrades of those apps before the life of those devices are over.
> 
> So, while Netflix might be great on your Smart TV (or Blu-ray player) today (and for the next few years), you can't count on that being true 5 or 6 years from now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


In 5 or so years the old TV will probably be replaced by a new smart TV that is up to date and might stay that way. My smart Samsung has done updates at least 4 times since I got it last November. And it is not just the Samsung TV software.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Like I said, I think those four currently unused tuners (SWM channels 12-15) will be used for 4K - I predict a software update will eventually take the limit from two to four 4K channels that you can watch/record. That's unless the limit is somehow based on the capabilities of the box... I suppose if the way they are doing software bonding somehow requires doing full demodulation and error correction in software (i.e. they are grabbing data directly off the ADC) that would be pretty limiting. Otherwise, I don't see why two 1.4 GHz ARM cores couldn't handle a lot more bonded transponder pairs than that.
> 
> But if they're doing that, that's even stupider than I already thought.


I just have a hard time buying the extra untouched 4 should be held for 4k. No matter how you look at it. I'd bet it will be years before that much new 4k content that will not be repeated is all on at the exact same time.


----------



## inkahauts

TheRatPatrol said:


> 5? I count 8 to turn it on, 9 to turn it off. Well unless you press and hold the right arrow button then its 3 and 4. But still a PITA.
> 
> Let's ask the users over at Dish.........


Doing a poll of how often they actually use it is the only way to even get close to a real answer. It's great to talk about but actual usage has always been tiny which is why it is always coming and going.


----------



## Bill Broderick

jimmie57 said:


> In 5 or so years the old TV will probably be replaced by a new smart TV that is up to date and might stay that way. My smart Samsung has done updates at least 4 times since I got it last November. And it is not just the Samsung TV software.


History has shown that manufacturers of these types of devices do a great job of keeping up to date with apps for a few years before discontinuing support. So, it's no surprise that you've received many updates over the past 5 months.

Personally, I hope that Samsung proves to be the exception to the rule (OT that this trend changes), since I've recently bought a couple of Samsung UHD Smart TV's for rooms that I'm renovating. I chose them for RVU capabilities. But, I will definitely use Netflix & Amazon Video while they continue to work.

But, while I will be disappointed, I certainly won't be surprised if, at some point in the future, thoae services no longer work on my TV's.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> You complain about the lack of OTA options and then say the AM21 is a pathetic excuse for OTA functionality (which no one here will argue) So shouldn't you conclude that dropping support for the AM21 was the right thing to do? Either they will come out with a better OTA solution, or they have decided that no OTA solution is better than one that sucks and leaves unsatisfied customers. I think we can all agree it would really look stupid having the HS17 sitting on top of an AM21, and having only two OTA tuners in a box connected to up to 7 TVs!
> 
> If Directv is going to introduce a new OTA module, it would make sense to have one capable of ATSC 3.0 so its future proofed. Chips that can handle both ATSC 1.0 & 3.0 have been available for a few months now, so maybe that's being worked on. Maybe not, perhaps Directv is dropping OTA support entirely, but supporting the AM21 on the HS17 would cost money and not lead to a whole lot of customer satisfaction since it is so limited - and that dissatisfaction only gets worse when ATSC 3.0 begins to roll out in a couple years or whatever.
> 
> The argument that "because Dish can record 16 things at once so should Directv" makes no sense. If Dish made a Hopper 4 that could record 24 things, would Directv need to match that as well? How many tuners is enough? How many customers does having the ability to record "only" 7 things at once affect out of Directv's 21 million? A couple hundred thousand? Now Sports Bar mode is nice, I'll grant that, but nothing stops Directv from doing that if they really wanted. They could use those four "unused" SWM channels inkahauts is wondering about to tune four HD channels, and ship that data to a 4K client to display in a 2x2 grid. Directv will probably figure people who want to do that can buy hardware on their own, it doesn't have to be built in.
> 
> Supporting Netflix is stupid. First, most smart TVs and set tops already support it, as does your computer, your phone, and maybe even your Blu Ray player. If you bought a smart fridge with an LCD screen on the front would you say it needs to support Netflix also? I see no evidence that Dish and Comcast supporting Netflix makes their customers more "sticky". They're probably just getting paid by Netflix. If anything, between Netflix and OTA support it might make customers think "hey we spend over half our time watching stuff we can get without Directv, maybe we should cut the cord" and be a net loss for Directv.


Actually supporting Netflix and Amazon prime both would be massive. They would then control your TV and have their logo on the screen all the time. Suddenly when you don't need a roku too you'll think DIRECTV is more worth the money because it's easier to use. And if thy added in universal search like TiVo... I don't see them adding vudu or something like that. But Amazon and Netflix have so many original things and would basically bolster their on demand content and it really wouldn't cost them anything because many people have both Netflix and dtv already... so it's really about giving them less reasons to try other hardware or leave.


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> How about looking at it this way? HS-17
> 
> Wouldn't they eventually want to phase out the H/HR equipment and just go all Headless/Server client?
> 
> I like watching live TV.  I mainly use the DVR to record one show while watching another.


They have passed out the HR20,21,22,23 already. But you'll noticed it hasn't changed a thing. No need to replace people's equipment that are happy with it unless it's holding the company back from adding something new or costing the company money somehow. That's why you'll finally see the moeg2 shut down. HR2x have a couple decades to go before that's even on the drawing board I think.


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> I thought it meant you love airports. Ok, probably only inkahauts will get that...


Wasn't what we thought the LAX part was when he first posted... . Gotta say he was a good sport about that.

Rich


----------



## Rich

slice1900 said:


> Cool, that's what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation!


He's someone we can all trust.

Rich


----------



## Rich

jimmie57 said:


> Couldn't you increase their smartness by getting a Blu Ray that has internet and apps ?
> I did this for my sons old Mitsubishi.


I have several BD players that have both NF and Amazon apps and many others. They're all very slow, even the BD 4K upscalers. The FTVs and ATVs are much easier and faster to use.

Rich


----------



## Rich

jimmie57 said:


> In 5 or so years the old TV will probably be replaced by a new smart TV that is up to date and might stay that way. My smart Samsung has done updates at least 4 times since I got it last November. And it is not just the Samsung TV software.


With the amount of updates we get it kinda makes me think Samsung might continue them longer than other makers do. Or so I hope. I have a 60" Panny plasma smart TV, the apps are awful and I have never seen an update on it. Might have happened but no evidence of it.

Rich


----------



## slice1900

James Long said:


> Are current 4K channels tuned on the special paired SWM channels or the regular single transponder SWM channels?
> 
> Is DIRECTV is using the "4K" pairs for tuning any 4K channel (whether or not it is on a bonded pair)?
> 
> Does the HR54 consume 7 SWM or 5?


Pretty sure it is using the same SWM channel assigned to it for SD/HD for 4K for now. Maybe someone who has an HS17 can comment on whether 4K works when connected to a SWM8 / SWM8 LNB. If it does, then it is obviously not using them.

As I understand it, the HR54 grabs 5 tuners unless it is connected to a reverse band LNB, in which case it grabs 7. I'm not sure how many the HS17 grabs, or if it grabs a different number when on a 3D2 (non-RB 21 channel LNB) or 3DR (RB 21 channel LNB) Maybe someone who has one can answer this one as well?


----------



## slice1900

lparsons21 said:


> CEC has its own share of issues because implementations are not all equal.


CEC was a great idea that has been made nearly useless by being way too loose about what they'd accept for an implementation to slap the CEC logo on it. Pretty much if a set top can force a TV to turn on when it turns on, or a TV will turn on and switch input when a set top turns on, they can claim they are CEC compliant. They don't have to do anything about passing through volume commands to a receiver, or TVs passing channel changes to a set top, or any of the stuff like that which would make it actually useful.


----------



## Laxguy

James Long said:


> Here is a shocker: Some people still watch live TV.


Yes, I've heard of some! Even I've done it a couple of times in the last year. Some watch SD when they're fully geared to watch HD; some have flip phones; some drive 1965 Buicks. And some....


----------



## inazsully

Too true Laxguy. Reminds me of the guy that buys a convertible and never puts the top down. When you stop and think about today's DVR's, especially the Genle, Genie 2, Hopper and Hopper 3 you realize what a incredible piece of technology it is. I remember watching test patterns on my patents TV, waiting for NBC to come on the air, in black and white, and very snowy, with a huge rooftop antenna. So I just spent more time on my tablet. Oh wait.


----------



## NR4P

inkahauts said:


> Doing a poll of how often they actually use it is the only way to even get close to a real answer. It's great to talk about but actual usage has always been tiny which is why it is always coming and going.


If you do a lousy job implementing something and people don't use it, it doesn't mean they don't want it. 

It could mean they don't want it but why put any efforts into developing a feature and then do it poorly and never correct it? I have never understood that product delivery mentality.


----------



## NR4P

CraigerM said:


> I use CEC to automatically switch inputs.


I turned off CEC after a week of using it. Directv box received an update at 2am, box rebooted, CEC turned on the TV, in the master bedroom. Done with CEC!


----------



## RAD

jimmie57 said:


> Couldn't you increase their smartness by getting a Blu Ray that has internet and apps ?
> I did this for my sons old Mitsubishi.


Yes but why spend the extra money, take another connection on a TV that doesn't have any extra's when DIRECTV could just add a client like Dish and IIRC Comcast and some other cable companies have done?


----------



## inkahauts

NR4P said:


> If you do a lousy job implementing something and people don't use it, it doesn't mean they don't want it.
> 
> It could mean they don't want it but why put any efforts into developing a feature and then do it poorly and never correct it? I have never understood that product delivery mentality.


Here's the rub... for anyone who finds that feature a true reason to buy, and not a nice thing in case, they will use it even with the ridiculous steps you have to take to use it.

Unless they don't even know it exsists. But that can happen with anything.


----------



## KyL416

RAD said:


> Yes but why spend the extra money, take another connection on a TV that doesn't have any extra's when DIRECTV could just add a client like Dish and IIRC Comcast and some other cable companies have done?


What makes you think DirecTV will never be able to add one? The fact that we now have a ESPN3 app and some other interactive apps where the entire UI and content comes over the internet like iHeart and the Santa Tracker already got them past some of the technical requirements. (Support for dynamic adaptive streaming, DRM and custom web based UIs) Those requirements also helps the technical hurdle that could bring back the YouTube app on Genies.


----------



## RAD

KyL416 said:


> What makes you think DirecTV will never be able to add one? The fact that we now have a ESPN3 app and some other interactive apps where the entire UI and content comes over the internet like iHeart and the Santa Tracker already got them past some of the technical requirements. (Support for dynamic adaptive streaming, DRM and custom web based UIs) Those requirements also helps the technical hurdle that could bring back the YouTube app on Genies.


I never said that they couldn't. I was responding to the poster that said why not just put another box on the TV that can stream Netflix.


----------



## inkahauts

KyL416 said:


> What makes you think DirecTV will never be able to add one? The fact that we now have a ESPN3 app and some other interactive apps where the entire UI and content comes over the internet like iHeart and the Santa Tracker already got them past some of the technical requirements. (Support for dynamic adaptive streaming, DRM and custom web based UIs) Those requirements also helps the technical hurdle that could bring back the YouTube app on Genies.


Honestly with that and att in charge now I see there being a chance Netflix and prime could come to DIRECTV boxes. I don't believe the old regime would have ever considered it. But it may depend on how they see DIRECTV now.


----------



## slice1900

It all depends on what they choose to prioritize. Some people want Netflix or Youtube support. Some people want OTA. Some people want more than one per account. Some people want more than 100 series links. I want the HS17 (or something like it that uses clients) supported on commercial accounts. We won't all get what we want.

Obviously they aren't going to sit still and leave it exactly as it is either, but they will have some idea of what they think matters and what they think doesn't. If you had to pick TWO things from the below list to improve the HS17, which would you choose?

A. Netflix (or 'insert streaming option here') support
B. Working OTA support (a new OTA module, with proper scanning)
C. More than one per account
D. More than 100 series links
E. Larger hard drive
F. More 4K recordings / 4K clients supported at once
G. More recordings supported at once
H. More clients supported at once
I. PIP or 'sports bar mode'
J. Brand new interface
K. RVU client apps available on set tops like Apple TV and Roku
L. Allow older equipment on the account with it
N. Tie HS17 recordings to your account, not to a specific HS17
M. You didn't list what I want, which is ___________
Z. Sorry, "have it output to a TV" is NOT an option here 

Aside from support for commercial accounts, I'd like to see an RVU client app on set tops. Personally, I think that would be a better way for Directv to address people who want Directv to support Netflix, because if they did what about Hulu, Amazon Prime and other streaming options? Should they support them all? How much time would that going to take away from them working on improving actual Directv functionality?

I have a Tivo, and believe me I've told them at every opportunity they should stop supporting third party streamers, but they keep adding more and more, spending time addressing bugs etc. on those while leaving outstanding bugs in basic Tivo functionality. It is very frustrating, and while I do use Amazon Prime on my Tivo from time to time, if I had to use a set top for that I'd be totally fine doing that. It would be one thing if it would download the movie to my Tivo so I could use the same interface for trick play, but the app has its own (really ****ty) interface that makes it almost impossible to try to rewind a few seconds if you missed something.

If they developed client apps for Apple TV and Roku then Directv could concentrate on improving their own software and not dealing with supporting a bunch of streaming options. Yeah, they'd have to support those RVU apps, but the software on the client end would share the large majority of code between Directv clients and the apps so there's not much added work. There's going to be very little code reuse between Netflix support and Amazon Prime support, and zero code shared between those and basic Directv functionality so it is all added work.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Without either *"C. More than one per account"* or *"L. Allow older equipment on the account with it"*, the HS17 is not an option that I will choose to pursue. So, one of them (I'd probably prefer C over L, but either would work) has to be my first choice. My second choice is *"M. You didn't list what I want, which is ___________"*. I want my external hard drives to be linked to my account rather than to a specific piece of hardware. With the concept of a Home Server, rather than individual DVR's around the house, it would be awesome if we could stick a NAS, with a RAID array, on the network and have multiple HS17's write to it. But, at this point, I'd be thrilled with knowing that if a piece of hardware dies, it can be replaced without losing all of the recordings that I haven't watched.

If I hadn't just bought a couple of RVU TV's, going with RVU because I want/need the ability to activate/deactivate DirecTV on them without getting new/returning old equipment each time that I need to do so, I would have put *"K. RVU client apps available on set tops like Apple TV and Roku" *at number 2.


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> Pretty sure it is using the same SWM channel assigned to it for SD/HD for 4K for now. Maybe someone who has an HS17 can comment on whether 4K works when connected to a SWM8 / SWM8 LNB. If it does, then it is obviously not using them.


Yes, 4K works with an HR54 or an HS17 when connected to a non-RB LNB. DirecTV has not yet started using RB for 4K streaming.


----------



## HoTat2

carl6 said:


> Yes, 4K works with an HR54 or an HS17 when connected to a non-RB LNB. DirecTV has not yet started using RB for 4K streaming.


Or perhaps to word your response more pertinent to the original question there would be ...



> "Yes, 4K works with an HR54 or an HS17 when connected to a non-RB LNB. DirecTV has not yet started using the designated bonded channel tuner pairs 6/7 for the HR54 or 8/9 and 10/11 for the HS17, which are only to be used on the RB for 4K streaming.


Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## timmythd

slice1900 said:


> It all depends on what they choose to prioritize. Some people want Netflix or Youtube support. Some people want OTA. Some people want more than one per account. Some people want more than 100 series links. I want the HS17 (or something like it that uses clients) supported on commercial accounts. We won't all get what we want.
> 
> Obviously they aren't going to sit still and leave it exactly as it is either, but they will have some idea of what they think matters and what they think doesn't. If you had to pick TWO things from the below list to improve the HS17, which would you choose?
> 
> A. Netflix (or 'insert streaming option here') support
> B. Working OTA support (a new OTA module, with proper scanning)
> C. More than one per account
> D. More than 100 series links
> E. Larger hard drive
> F. More 4K recordings / 4K clients supported at once
> G. More recordings supported at once
> H. More clients supported at once
> I. PIP or 'sports bar mode'
> J. Brand new interface
> K. RVU client apps available on set tops like Apple TV and Roku
> L. Allow older equipment on the account with it
> M. You didn't list what I want, which is ___________
> Z. Sorry, "have it output to a TV" is NOT an option here


Can I vote twice for "B", OTA? In my case, it's a deal breaker if Directv ever wants me back as a customer. Even if they gave me the locals in my market Bowling Green, KY (largest market without locals I think), I still wouldn't switch back because I want to pick up at least 3 or 4 Nashville stations to the south just for sports coverage.


----------



## slice1900

carl6 said:


> Yes, 4K works with an HR54 or an HS17 when connected to a non-RB LNB. DirecTV has not yet started using RB for 4K streaming.


That wasn't exactly my question. What I was wondering was whether 4K works when it is connected to a SWM that has only 8 tuners. I know they aren't using reverse band or bonded transponders yet.

This would determine for sure whether it is using the 'reserved' SWM channels apparently intended for 4K bonded transponders to tune an unbonded 4K channel today, or uses the same SWM channel it uses for HD/SD channels. I'm pretty sure it is the latter, but knowing 4K works on a SWM8 is the only way to prove it.


----------



## Laxguy

C and L for me.


----------



## slice1900

Bill Broderick said:


> My second choice is *"M. You didn't list what I want, which is ___________"*. I want my external hard drives to be linked to my account rather than to a specific piece of hardware. With the concept of a Home Server, rather than individual DVR's around the house, it would be awesome if we could stick a NAS, with a RAID array, on the network and have multiple HS17's write to it. But, at this point, I'd be thrilled with knowing that if a piece of hardware dies, it can be replaced without losing all of the recordings that I haven't watched.


I knew I would forget some in that list. I've added "N. Tie HS17 recordings to your account, not to a specific HS17" to cover this.


----------



## Laxguy

That would be awesome. But less fantastic now than a few years ago. With so much available On Demand, missed or lost programs hurt less and less with what we have now.


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> That wasn't exactly my question. What I was wondering was whether 4K works when it is connected to a SWM that has only 8 tuners. I know they aren't using reverse band or bonded transponders yet.


4K works on an HS17 connected to an SWM8 multiswitch. Does that answer your question?

The receiver (both HR54 and HS17) know what type of dish they are connected to, and configure appropriately. An HS17 connected to an SWM8 LNB or an SWM8 multiswitch configures differently than when connected to an RBDSWM22. An HS17 connected to an SWM8 will work with 8 channels.


----------



## Bigg

Laxguy said:


> Agree on the poor implementation, but why would anyone want PIP *now *when you can record all your sports programs, then FF through 5 or 6 (but watching the action in regular speed) games in the time it would take to watch two side by side with PiP? And actually see more of the two games you would have watched via PiP....?


The biggest selling point of a pay TV service right now is live TV and sports. There are often multiple games going, and the sports bar mode is a really neat way to put multiple things up. I've used PiP a couple of times on my Samsung TV, but one of the inputs has to be on the internal tuner, so if you don't have access to analog cable (I am one of the few who still does, as my local cable company has analog, digital, and HD, and some channels are only available on analog), then you'd need another box and an RF modulator, making it impractical for most people.

The fantasy football people are also big into watching multiple games, and this sports bar mode would resonate well with the NFLST crowd, but DirecTV doesn't want to implement it.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> It all depends on what they choose to prioritize. Some people want Netflix or Youtube support. Some people want OTA. Some people want more than one per account. Some people want more than 100 series links. I want the HS17 (or something like it that uses clients) supported on commercial accounts. We won't all get what we want.
> 
> Obviously they aren't going to sit still and leave it exactly as it is either, but they will have some idea of what they think matters and what they think doesn't. If you had to pick TWO things from the below list to improve the HS17, which would you choose?
> 
> A. Netflix (or 'insert streaming option here') support
> B. Working OTA support (a new OTA module, with proper scanning)
> C. More than one per account
> D. More than 100 series links
> E. Larger hard drive
> F. More 4K recordings / 4K clients supported at once
> G. More recordings supported at once
> H. More clients supported at once
> I. PIP or 'sports bar mode'
> J. Brand new interface
> K. RVU client apps available on set tops like Apple TV and Roku
> L. Allow older equipment on the account with it
> N. Tie HS17 recordings to your account, not to a specific HS17
> M. You didn't list what I want, which is ___________
> Z. Sorry, "have it output to a TV" is NOT an option here
> 
> Aside from support for commercial accounts, I'd like to see an RVU client app on set tops. Personally, I think that would be a better way for Directv to address people who want Directv to support Netflix, because if they did what about Hulu, Amazon Prime and other streaming options? Should they support them all? How much time would that going to take away from them working on improving actual Directv functionality?
> 
> I have a Tivo, and believe me I've told them at every opportunity they should stop supporting third party streamers, but they keep adding more and more, spending time addressing bugs etc. on those while leaving outstanding bugs in basic Tivo functionality. It is very frustrating, and while I do use Amazon Prime on my Tivo from time to time, if I had to use a set top for that I'd be totally fine doing that. It would be one thing if it would download the movie to my Tivo so I could use the same interface for trick play, but the app has its own (really ****ty) interface that makes it almost impossible to try to rewind a few seconds if you missed something.
> 
> If they developed client apps for Apple TV and Roku then Directv could concentrate on improving their own software and not dealing with supporting a bunch of streaming options. Yeah, they'd have to support those RVU apps, but the software on the client end would share the large majority of code between Directv clients and the apps so there's not much added work. There's going to be very little code reuse between Netflix support and Amazon Prime support, and zero code shared between those and basic Directv functionality so it is all added work.


Limiting that list to two is silly... putting it in order would make more sense. I'd chose series links limits and number of recordings at once easily at the top but there's zero reason to limit choices to those two. Heck over time everyone of those could hit but they won't.

Where to stop on adding Netflix services? Imho that's easy, Netflix and Amazon prime. Those are the two. The others are much more a direct competitor. Hulu is based in you not needing DIRECTV. Netflix and Amazon are ways to enhance your service and in effect add another premium channel to your service. Hulu is not. Hulu replaces your channels.

More than one is a great idea, I'm not sure I see that happening even though the dswim30 seems perfect to make that happen with ease...

More tvs? I doubt it unless they allow more than one hs17. I wondered why they didn't go to eight with this unit for recordings and clients out the gate. So maybe one more? But rvu is limited to 8 clients per server. Don't need more 4k channels for probably five years or more. I'm sure everything in 4k will be able to be recorded in more than one time frame for a long time.

Tie recordings to account sadly seems like a pipe dream since we've been asking for that for literally a decade.

I hope we get more enhancements to the GUI like profiles. That's desperately needed imho. In fact I'd call it inexcusable they don't have that or folders for sorting recordings today on the hs17.

I never expect to see them allow anything older than an hs17 on an account with an hs17 I've come to peace with that. And it's really not an issue imho either. Not at this time anyway. (Except for commercial which I think they will allow)

I'd love to see an RVU app on apppletv. But I wouldn't say that is a substitute for adding Netflix ability to minis and exsist if genies.

I have zero need for tv out on it by the way. Clients work just fine.

Oh and I've also now written off over the air. I think it's toast. That's a mistake imho but it's what it is.

The hs17 is great. But as you say, no reason to think more won't happen with it in time and the guessing game is really what's first?


----------



## slice1900

I suggested limiting it to two to see what people consider MOST important to them. If someone ranks them all from top to bottom it isn't easy to see if they consider #1 a dealbreaker, 2-5 nice to have, and 6+ stuff they don't care about unless they categorize them as well and then it just gets silly.

Hopefully the "what's first" will match up with what most people actually want. If you asked average customers instead of dbstalk participants I think you'd get a minority who would pick anything out of that list. The HS17 will already do more than they want/need.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> Like I said, I think those four currently unused tuners (SWM channels 12-15) will be used for 4K - I predict a software update will eventually take the limit from two to four 4K channels that you can watch/record.


This whole tuner bonding thing seems kind of nuts to be using now if it could be done later in software by reducing the number of tuners available. There are what, 38 RB Tps? So assuming that all the current Ka bandwidth used for 4k is turned over to HD, that means that there has to be 39 4k channels before tuner bonding is even needed. And even then, we're assuming that advances in encoding, 2160p24 content (movie channels), or HDR doesn't come into play and break the math on the 3 channels 2 TPs bonded system.

It seems to me that they should have gone for the full 15 tuners if they could later reduce that number for channel bonding if, someday, there are 39+ 4k channels to broadcast. And until then, why not offer the full 7 tuners on the HR54 and 15 on the HS17, and allow the user to choose the number of tuners in the software later?

Also, what no one seems to be able to account for is why the HR54 just needs two extra tuners, but the HS17 needs 4 extra tuners.


----------



## Bigg

RAD said:


> Disagree with this. Yes I have some smart TV's but I have some really dumb ones in bedrooms which would be nice to have Netflix access on.


I agree. People eat that stuff up. Just eat it up. It's about stickiness and UX, and people will find various uses for it, even if the client sucks compared to Netflix on a Roku.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> You complain about the lack of OTA options and then say the AM21 is a pathetic excuse for OTA functionality (which no one here will argue) So shouldn't you conclude that dropping support for the AM21 was the right thing to do?


The issues are all in software, not in the hardware. Granted, it does need a new form factor, the AM21 was weirdly oversized just to fit with the HR22/23 boxes in the first place.



> If Directv is going to introduce a new OTA module, it would make sense to have one capable of ATSC 3.0 so its future proofed. Chips that can handle both ATSC 1.0 & 3.0 have been available for a few months now, so maybe that's being worked on. Maybe not, perhaps Directv is dropping OTA support entirely, but supporting the AM21 on the HS17 would cost money and not lead to a whole lot of customer satisfaction since it is so limited - and that dissatisfaction only gets worse when ATSC 3.0 begins to roll out in a couple years or whatever.


I think they're dumping OTA support. They want control of the whole system, end to end, and OTA doesn't give them that. It's unfortunate that they are dropping support, as there are still a few oddball subchannels here or there or HD locals that aren't available as HD LiLs. It seems that they're going for the mainstream here, and don't care about the edge cases.



> The argument that "because Dish can record 16 things at once so should Directv" makes no sense. If Dish made a Hopper 4 that could record 24 things, would Directv need to match that as well? How many tuners is enough? How many customers does having the ability to record "only" 7 things at once affect out of Directv's 21 million? A couple hundred thousand? Now Sports Bar mode is nice, I'll grant that, but nothing stops Directv from doing that if they really wanted. They could use those four "unused" SWM channels inkahauts is wondering about to tune four HD channels, and ship that data to a 4K client to display in a 2x2 grid. Directv will probably figure people who want to do that can buy hardware on their own, it doesn't have to be built in.


Very few people have the hardware to do a sports bar type of setup, and it's a really cool feature that advertises easily. You show it on the screen, you mention 16 tuners and show a picture perfect family on the screen. Another thing that's easy to advertise is user profiles, so I'm not sure why no one has thought that one up on any DVR. Sports bar mode would really appeal to the sports nuts who have DirecTV, so it's a shame that they don't feel the need to even copy others' innovations, and are instead going for the bare minimum/cheapest setup possible.



> Supporting Netflix is stupid. First, most smart TVs and set tops already support it, as does your computer, your phone, and maybe even your Blu Ray player. If you bought a smart fridge with an LCD screen on the front would you say it needs to support Netflix also? I see no evidence that Dish and Comcast supporting Netflix makes their customers more "sticky". They're probably just getting paid by Netflix. If anything, between Netflix and OTA support it might make customers think "hey we spend over half our time watching stuff we can get without Directv, maybe we should cut the cord" and be a net loss for Directv.


Comcast is being very strategic with X1, and I can tell you, people have have X1 like it, and like the Netflix integration, and it's causing X1 to be stickier than other DVR solutions. It's a no-brainer at this point, and DirecTV is the odd man out here amongst DISH and Comcast. It's sort of the other end of the spectrum from OTA- OTA is sticky for the power uses, Netflix for the less sophisticated users.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> The issues are all in software, not in the hardware.


And that claim is based on what?

In the last couple years the AM21 started having problems stopping halfway through the 'scan' it does during setup. Something it was seeing was causing it problems. There's no way to prove it was something Directv could have fixed in software, it could well have been a flaw in the hardware. It was using a very old generation of ATSC tuner chip after all.

Even if that could be fixed in software, that old generation ATSC tuner has terrible multipath rejection, which is why many report picking up stations with a new TV their AM21 can't, even when they are in the database.

With ATSC 3.0 looming on the horizon, replacing the AM21 with the same old generation ATSC 1.0 tuner chip in a better form factor would only be a viable solution for so long. Once the first ATSC 3.0 stations started appearing, people would want it updated anyway.

Of course there wouldn't be much point in putting out a new OTA tuner, ATSC 3.0 or 1.0, if they can't address that TMS ID > 65536 problem. With TMS IDs over 100,000 and counting, that's like a third of all stations...


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> This whole tuner bonding thing seems kind of nuts to be using now if it could be done later in software by reducing the number of tuners available. There are what, 38 RB Tps? So assuming that all the current Ka bandwidth used for 4k is turned over to HD, that means that there has to be 39 4k channels before tuner bonding is even needed. And even then, we're assuming that advances in encoding, 2160p24 content (movie channels), or HDR doesn't come into play and break the math on the 3 channels 2 TPs bonded system.
> 
> It seems to me that they should have gone for the full 15 tuners if they could later reduce that number for channel bonding if, someday, there are 39+ 4k channels to broadcast. And until then, why not offer the full 7 tuners on the HR54 and 15 on the HS17, and allow the user to choose the number of tuners in the software later?
> 
> Also, what no one seems to be able to account for is why the HR54 just needs two extra tuners, but the HS17 needs 4 extra tuners.


Because the hr54 can record one 4k channel at a time and the hs17 can record two 4k channels at a time. That is why one needs two reserved and the other four. Because evidently it will take three tuners to record each 4k channel off a bonded transponder.

Also there is a rumor DIRECTV will have 60fps and possibly hdr. I think hdr is more likey but I wouldn't put it past them to do both that kind of offering might be unique to them and blurays which could provide a competitive advantage.

And it's better to start wth bonding if you ever are going to it. They might want everything to ever come off the RB transponders to be bonded for better efficiency anyway.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> This whole tuner bonding thing seems kind of nuts to be using now if it could be done later in software by reducing the number of tuners available. There are what, 38 RB Tps? So assuming that all the current Ka bandwidth used for 4k is turned over to HD, that means that there has to be 39 4k channels before tuner bonding is even needed. And even then, we're assuming that advances in encoding, 2160p24 content (movie channels), or HDR doesn't come into play and break the math on the 3 channels 2 TPs bonded system.
> 
> It seems to me that they should have gone for the full 15 tuners if they could later reduce that number for channel bonding if, someday, there are 39+ 4k channels to broadcast. And until then, why not offer the full 7 tuners on the HR54 and 15 on the HS17, and allow the user to choose the number of tuners in the software later?
> 
> Also, what no one seems to be able to account for is why the HR54 just needs two extra tuners, but the HS17 needs 4 extra tuners.


Isn't it obvious why the HR54 needs two extra tuners and the HS17 needs four? The HR54 can handle one 4K channel, the HS17 can handle two...

Taking tuners away from people down the road as they start to watch 4K would be very difficult for them to explain. I suggested a long time ago - even before we knew what the HS17 was - that the next generation Genie would have no more than 8 tuners, because I figured they'd plan it out so it would always have the same number of tuners regardless of whether you are watching HD or 4K.

Of course, I was thinking in terms of a box with two 8 tuner chips for a total of seven bonded transponder pairs, or possibly a box with two 8 tuner chips and a separate network tuner to allow eight bonded transponder pairs. I didn't count on Directv for some reason needing an entirely separate set of tuners to be 'reserved' for bonded transponder pairs. Regardless, if you think about a future HS27 or whatever that had three 8 tuner chips, it could grab all 21 tuners off a reverse band LNB and have 7 HD/SD tuners and 7 bonded transponder pairs for 4K. So there's the likely source of your 7 tuner limit.

Now sure they could have decided we aren't going to do bonding until we hit our 37th 4K channel, and use one reverse band transponder per channel. Heck, the way things are going they may well never exceed 36 4K channels. But once they hit that 37th, and needed to do bonding, they would need to start trading out hardware - because it sure looks like however they are doing bonding requires dedicated tuners that can ONLY be used for that purpose.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> I suggested limiting it to two to see what people consider MOST important to them. If someone ranks them all from top to bottom it isn't easy to see if they consider #1 a dealbreaker, 2-5 nice to have, and 6+ stuff they don't care about unless they categorize them as well and then it just gets silly.
> 
> Hopefully the "what's first" will match up with what most people actually want. If you asked average customers instead of dbstalk participants I think you'd get a minority who would pick anything out of that list. The HS17 will already do more than they want/need.


Ugh. I hate focus groups that try to decide what people want and would use. Focus groups are fine for things we already have but they such at what we need. We wouldn't have smart phones at all today if anyone listed to and based decisions in focus groups. They don't know what is good till they have it!

And it can not always be about the masses. Number one for anyone is going to be content always. But if you have a platform that meets not just a mass but also the niche you will have the niche who recommend a product to all their masses friends. That's how things can become popular in the first place. Its definitely word of mouth that helped make DIRECTV popular in the first place.


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> The issues are all in software, not in the hardware. Granted, it does need a new form factor, the AM21 was weirdly oversized just to fit with the HR22/23 boxes in the first place.
> 
> I think they're dumping OTA support. They want control of the whole system, end to end, and OTA doesn't give them that. It's unfortunate that they are dropping support, as there are still a few oddball subchannels here or there or HD locals that aren't available as HD LiLs. It seems that they're going for the mainstream here, and don't care about the edge cases.
> 
> Very few people have the hardware to do a sports bar type of setup, and it's a really cool feature that advertises easily. You show it on the screen, you mention 16 tuners and show a picture perfect family on the screen. Another thing that's easy to advertise is user profiles, so I'm not sure why no one has thought that one up on any DVR. Sports bar mode would really appeal to the sports nuts who have DirecTV, so it's a shame that they don't feel the need to even copy others' innovations, and are instead going for the bare minimum/cheapest setup possible.
> 
> Comcast is being very strategic with X1, and I can tell you, people have have X1 like it, and like the Netflix integration, and it's causing X1 to be stickier than other DVR solutions. It's a no-brainer at this point, and DirecTV is the odd man out here amongst DISH and Comcast. It's sort of the other end of the spectrum from OTA- OTA is sticky for the power uses, Netflix for the less sophisticated users.


I do not believe over the air has anything to do with controlling the content. In fact if it where easier to install they'd have chosen that route over ever carrying locals. But they can't get the consistency and universal coverage of over the air with an antenna so they want to stick to satellite. Add in the problems the guide data causes and there you have the issues.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Isn't it obvious why the HR54 needs two extra tuners and the HS17 needs four? The HR54 can handle one 4K channel, the HS17 can handle two...
> 
> Taking tuners away from people down the road as they start to watch 4K would be very difficult for them to explain. I suggested a long time ago - even before we knew what the HS17 was - that the next generation Genie would have no more than 8 tuners, because I figured they'd plan it out so it would always have the same number of tuners regardless of whether you are watching HD or 4K.
> 
> Of course, I was thinking in terms of a box with two 8 tuner chips for a total of seven bonded transponder pairs, or possibly a box with two 8 tuner chips and a separate network tuner to allow eight bonded transponder pairs. I didn't count on Directv for some reason needing an entirely separate set of tuners to be 'reserved' for bonded transponder pairs. Regardless, if you think about a future HS27 or whatever that had three 8 tuner chips, it could grab all 21 tuners off a reverse band LNB and have 7 HD/SD tuners and 7 bonded transponder pairs for 4K. So there's the likely source of your 7 tuner limit.
> 
> Now sure they could have decided we aren't going to do bonding until we hit our 37th 4K channel, and use one reverse band transponder per channel. Heck, the way things are going they may well never exceed 36 4K channels. But once they hit that 37th, and needed to do bonding, they would need to start trading out hardware - because it sure looks like however they are doing bonding requires dedicated tuners that can ONLY be used for that purpose.


What's the math? How much bandwidth per transponder, per bonded transponder, from RB (does a bonded have more because it will have less guard band width between the two bondings ?) and what's the spacing for digital swim channels size again? Maybe there some math that hasn't been though of in why any one 4k session will possibly take 3 swim channels and therefore 3 tuners.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> What's the math? How much bandwidth per transponder, per bonded transponder, from RB (does a bonded have more because it will have less guard band width between the two bondings ?) and what's the spacing for digital swim channels size again? Maybe there some math that hasn't been though of in why any one 4k session will possibly take 3 swim channels and therefore 3 tuners.


When transponders are bonded both are demodulated and the bit rate is combined. Think of it like how bonded DSL lines work. You have two individual DSL lines that result in twice the bandwidth of one: 2 * x = 2x.

Reverse band transponders are the same width as Ka transponders, and you get the exact same bit rate for a given modulation that you do with Ka. They could bond two Ka transponders for the exact same effect. The width of the SWM channels doesn't change either, it is 51.03 MHz (or 102.06 MHz on an ASWM) for every transponder, regardless of band, bonding, etc.

There is no math that explains why 4K takes three tuners other than one being reserved for HD/SD and two reserved for 4K.


----------



## slice1900

Question for those with an HS17: does it have a signal strength screen similar to other Genies, where you can choose a tuner and view the signal 'strength' on that tuner? Does that work for only tuners 1-7, only tuners 1-11 or all tuners 1-15?


----------



## CraigerM

Has anybody confirmed if all software updates for the HS-17 will be done using the internet or just for the initial one? Then after the initial one the software updates would switch to the dish? I wonder how much techs will comply with the rule about having the HS-17 only 4ft from the Gateway for WIFI?


----------



## longrider

CraigerM said:


> Has anybody confirmed if all software updates for the HS-17 will be done using the internet or just for the initial one? Then after the initial one the software updates would switch to the dish? I wonder how much techs will comply with the rule about having the HS-17 only 4ft from the Gateway for WIFI?


That rule was not 'only' 4 feet, but 'at least' 4 feet. This was to prevent interference between the WVB and your WiFi. Also a hardwire connection is preferred.


----------



## dpeters11

CraigerM said:


> Has anybody confirmed if all software updates for the HS-17 will be done using the internet or just for the initial one? Then after the initial one the software updates would switch to the dish? I wonder how much techs will comply with the rule about having the HS-17 only 4ft from the Gateway for WIFI?


All can come over the Internet, it's not required. But would certainly speed up updates.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> Even if that could be fixed in software, that old generation ATSC tuner has terrible multipath rejection, which is why many report picking up stations with a new TV their AM21 can't, even when they are in the database.


I didn't realize that it also had reception issues. I was referring to guide data, which is entirely a software issue. There are a bunch of other products that manage to do it right, DirecTV was just too lazy to ever fix it. Are they even going to update station moves for the repack, or are those channels just going to disappear?



> Of course there wouldn't be much point in putting out a new OTA tuner, ATSC 3.0 or 1.0, if they can't address that TMS ID > 65536 problem. With TMS IDs over 100,000 and counting, that's like a third of all stations...


I Google the TMS ID thing, and I still can't wrap my head around it. Why is DirecTV having a problem that no one else has? It seems like they are using the same system for ancient boxes as new ones, you'd think they could fix it for the newer ones and push guide data and updates over the internet....



slice1900 said:


> Now sure they could have decided we aren't going to do bonding until we hit our 37th 4K channel, and use one reverse band transponder per channel. Heck, the way things are going they may well never exceed 36 4K channels. But once they hit that 37th, and needed to do bonding, they would need to start trading out hardware - because it sure looks like however they are doing bonding requires dedicated tuners that can ONLY be used for that purpose.


So they can't make hardware that supports it, but use them all individually in the mean time? It does offer them some additional flexibility, but it seems like a lot of work on the receivers to set it all up. I also don't have a good sense of what the bitrates are going to be, as it's hard to compare to streaming, since that's 2160p24, and encoded offline. I still think with advances in encoders, they can get two 2160p60 channels on a transponder. Conversely, if there are relatively few 4k channels, they could just put one up per TP, and throw the whole TPs bitrate at it. I'm not sure how much gain you'd see, although UHD BD is offline encoded at 2160p24, and they're often pushing 50mbps+, so I guess you can't have too much bandwidth until it starts gobbling up DVR drives.


----------



## Bigg

inkahauts said:


> Because the hr54 can record one 4k channel at a time and the hs17 can record two 4k channels at a time.


Interesting. I thought it could handle one live and one recording. That makes more sense, at least in that it's consistently nonsensical as to why they need 3 tuners.



> Also there is a rumor DIRECTV will have 60fps and possibly hdr.


Isn't their current 4k 2160p60? Do you mean potential 2160p120? The bandwidth increase for that should be pretty modest, due to the deltas between frames being smaller.


----------



## compnurd

Current is 60. One of them may be 24 I did get a questionnaire recently from directv mentioning a hdr movie channel coming


----------



## KyL416

Bigg said:


> Are they even going to update station moves for the repack, or are those channels just going to disappear?


For the repacks all TMS/Gracenote has to do is update the RF number in their database once the station changes their channel, which they are usually on top of. The OTA database isn't in some untouched state since 2009, if there's an update involving a stationID less than 65535, including RF number changes, call sign changes, affiliation changes, deactivations/reactivations, it's automatically updated in the OTA database too. (i.e. here WNEP added 16-3 about 2 years ago, since they previously had a 16-3 as a doppler loop it had an ID lower than 65535 so it was automatically added to the database, even though last time it existed the OTA datbase wasn't even a thing yet, and a few years ago after a transmitter building fire my PBS station temporarily moved from 41 to another stations transitional facility on 49 and back to 41 a year later after they rebuilt it, both changes were reflected in the TMS database)



Bigg said:


> Google the TMS ID thing, and I still can't wrap my head around it. Why is DirecTV having a problem that no one else has? It seems like they are using the same system for ancient boxes as new ones, you'd think they could fix it for the newer ones and push guide data and updates over the internet....


You have to understand coding on the machine/assembly code level to fully grasp it. But basically 16 bit integer the highest unsigned value you can have is 0xFFFF or 65535, when the OTA database was first created they weren't even remotely close to that level, but fast forward a few years in addition to the rise of cable system specific edits for channels like TBS, ESPN, NBCSN, BTN and others to handle regional variations and blackouts, TMS also expanded to Europe and Latin America resulting in hundreds of new channels for each of those countries covered in those areas. In order to go higher they would have to change the code everywhere the value is used and everywhere it's referenced to the next highest option, a 32 bit integer 0xFFFFFFFF. This has been covered numerous times in depth in other threads if you want further details on why this isn't trivial and you can read the boring details there if you want. (It's complicated to explain so rehashing it here will just throw the thread off topic with the inevitable follow up questions about something that isn't supported by the HS17) Just do a forum search for 65535 and those threads should popup.

(As for using the TSID instead of the TMS ID, that has been explained before in the same threads where it was last brought up, for one thing DirecTV and Dish don't match channels the same way, this is just how they index the guide data entries in the APG guide stream and reference it, not how they match the channels to the OTA signal, I would go further but I already explained that in depth too in one of those threads and will also throw this thread off topic if I rehash it. Both methods have their benefits and drawbacks. i.e. we didn't need to wait months for that Evansville Fox thing to be manually fixed since it was reflected in the stationID that has always been used for WEVVDT2)


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> Interesting. I thought it could handle one live and one recording. That makes more sense, at least in that it's consistently nonsensical as to why they need 3 tuners.


Watching recordings doesn't use tuners, so that's irrelevant to the question. However, Directv has chosen to support only one 4K RVU stream in the HR54 and two in the HS17 - likely because supporting more active 4K clients than it would be possible to watch live 4K programs would be very confusing for customers. You can't tell them "yeah, you can have three 4K clients, but only two of them can watch live TV, the third has to be watching a recording".

If they decided to use the HS17's apparently inactive SWM channels 12-15 to support two more 4K 'tuners' via a software update down the road then they'd probably also allow two more active 4K clients along with it. Note - I'm just saying 'if', I have no idea if there may be some limitation preventing this, but I suspect it is doable.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

NR4P said:


> If you do a lousy job implementing something and people don't use it, it doesn't mean they don't want it.
> 
> It could mean they don't want it but why put any efforts into developing a feature and then do it poorly and never correct it? I have never understood that product delivery mentality.


Exactly. I bet some people don't even know PIP is available, they're not aware of the features on the banner screen. If they saw a PIP button on the remote they might be more inclined to use it.



Bigg said:


> The biggest selling point of a pay TV service right now is live TV and sports. There are often multiple games going, and the sports bar mode is a really neat way to put multiple things up. I've used PiP a couple of times on my Samsung TV, but one of the inputs has to be on the internal tuner, so if you don't have access to analog cable (I am one of the few who still does, as my local cable company has analog, digital, and HD, and some channels are only available on analog), then you'd need another box and an RF modulator, making it impractical for most people.
> 
> The fantasy football people are also big into watching multiple games, and this sports bar mode would resonate well with the NFLST crowd, but DirecTV doesn't want to implement it.


And thats why PIP never worked being built into the TV's. It works better being built into the box thats hooked up to it.

Anyways..........


----------



## James Long

Bigg said:


> I Google the TMS ID thing, and I still can't wrap my head around it. Why is DirecTV having a problem that no one else has?


I do not know why DIRECTV uses the IDs. DISH (as an example of another provider) uses the TSID of the station plus the subchannel number to match up the guide to the channel/subchannels. For example, WSBT in South Bend transmits TSID "047B" on their OTA feed. That TSID refers to the entire broadcast channel (all subchannels). Then in their channel list they have an entry that says (in essence) "if you see an OTA channel transmitting TSID 047B use this channel's EPG for subchannel 01". If they have EPG data for the second subchannel (they do) that entry will say "if you see an OTA channel transmitting TSID 047B use this channel's EPG for subchannel 02". The TMS ID isn't part of the transmitted data so it does not matter how many bits are needed for an ID that isn't used via satellite.

"We can never add a subchannel with a TMS ID higher than 65535" seems limiting. "Why is DirecTV having a problem that no one else has?" is a good question ... and it appears to have come down to a design choice.


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> Question for those with an HS17: does it have a signal strength screen similar to other Genies, where you can choose a tuner and view the signal 'strength' on that tuner? Does that work for only tuners 1-7, only tuners 1-11 or all tuners 1-15?


I can view signal strength on 15 tuners. There is the normal "Test Signal Strength" screen where you see all transponders for a given satellite and tuner, and the "Signal Meters" screen where you can select a transponder and see the results on all tuners. Both show signals on 15 tuners.

However, the limits of 7 simultaneous viewing/recording channels remains, with 7, 9, or 11 tuners being used depending on 0, 1 or 2 4K channels being part of the 7 viewing/recording events.

EDIT-UPDATE - It only shows 11 active tuners, see post below with updated information.


----------



## SledgeHammer

James Long said:


> "We can never add a subchannel with a TMS ID higher than 65535" seems limiting. "Why is DirecTV having a problem that no one else has?" is a good question ... and it appears to have come down to a design choice.


If the software is built to only handle 16-bit ints for the TMS ID, that's all you'll get. The AM21 is pretty old. At the time, there was obviously only 16-bit TMS IDs, so that's how the software was built. When the spec expanded to allow for 32-bit TMS IDs, the AM21 and the DVRs and whatever else is needed in the infrastructure was never updated to support 32-bit.

Why? Duh... DirecTV (even before the merger) has made it clear that they don't want to support any content other then their own. I'm surprised they haven't removed YouTube support since they've removed OTA support (in the HS17) and MediaShare.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> When transponders are bonded both are demodulated and the bit rate is combined. Think of it like how bonded DSL lines work. You have two individual DSL lines that result in twice the bandwidth of one: 2 * x = 2x.
> 
> Reverse band transponders are the same width as Ka transponders, and you get the exact same bit rate for a given modulation that you do with Ka. They could bond two Ka transponders for the exact same effect. The width of the SWM channels doesn't change either, it is 51.03 MHz (or 102.06 MHz on an ASWM) for every transponder, regardless of band, bonding, etc.
> 
> There is no math that explains why 4K takes three tuners other than one being reserved for HD/SD and two reserved for 4K.


Ok, I did a little digging, looks like 40 per transponder is the max they can get out of a transponder. With 50 in a dswim channel..

So I guess a couple WAG would be...

Maybe they need a control channel to coordinate the two bonded transponders?

They are going to be bonding three transponders, not two...

Or the more likely reason is they have to make all bonded tuners only work as a single bonded tuner and they do not want to say 7 hd plus 2 4k, because then people would wonder why they can't do 9 hd. That would be really dumb though. I get the feeling we have to wait till they lite up to see what the heck is going on.


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> Has anybody confirmed if all software updates for the HS-17 will be done using the internet or just for the initial one? Then after the initial one the software updates would switch to the dish? I wonder how much techs will comply with the rule about having the HS-17 only 4ft from the Gateway for WIFI?


They can come either way, the process is the same for forcing them either way too. But they are just a lot faster over the internet, os it is how it will be done if there's an internet connection.

And yeah, as others said that rule is to keep interference to a minimum, so you need to be further than 4 feet if possible. With that said I have run mine within about 18 inches to two feet and I have been fine. Well for my wireless client anyway, I am hardwired to the router.


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> I didn't realize that it also had reception issues. I was referring to guide data, which is entirely a software issue. There are a bunch of other products that manage to do it right, DirecTV was just too lazy to ever fix it. Are they even going to update station moves for the repack, or are those channels just going to disappear?
> 
> I Google the TMS ID thing, and I still can't wrap my head around it. Why is DirecTV having a problem that no one else has? It seems like they are using the same system for ancient boxes as new ones, you'd think they could fix it for the newer ones and push guide data and updates over the internet....
> 
> So they can't make hardware that supports it, but use them all individually in the mean time? It does offer them some additional flexibility, but it seems like a lot of work on the receivers to set it all up. I also don't have a good sense of what the bitrates are going to be, as it's hard to compare to streaming, since that's 2160p24, and encoded offline. I still think with advances in encoders, they can get two 2160p60 channels on a transponder. Conversely, if there are relatively few 4k channels, they could just put one up per TP, and throw the whole TPs bitrate at it. I'm not sure how much gain you'd see, although UHD BD is offline encoded at 2160p24, and they're often pushing 50mbps+, so I guess you can't have too much bandwidth until it starts gobbling up DVR drives.


I think the reason is easier to look at if you look at it this way, Directv built their computer systems ages ago before the idea they might need a higher database number existed since they built it before digital broadcast was a thing. To change the system to accommodate more channels is a massive project they seem unwilling to do, which is also why I dont believe we will ever see them try and broadcast any sub channels. They dont have their guide data.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Watching recordings doesn't use tuners, so that's irrelevant to the question. However, Directv has chosen to support only one 4K RVU stream in the HR54 and two in the HS17 - likely because supporting more active 4K clients than it would be possible to watch live 4K programs would be very confusing for customers. You can't tell them "yeah, you can have three 4K clients, but only two of them can watch live TV, the third has to be watching a recording".
> 
> If they decided to use the HS17's apparently inactive SWM channels 12-15 to support two more 4K 'tuners' via a software update down the road then they'd probably also allow two more active 4K clients along with it. Note - I'm just saying 'if', I have no idea if there may be some limitation preventing this, but I suspect it is doable.


Uh, they do something similar to that already. You can have seven 61ks hooked up to your genie and have seven programs in 4k recorded you want to watch and you can only watch two of them...

Heck, you can have more clients connected to your genie than you can actually use at one time. I doubt that is a consideration. I hope the reason is something technical, and not marketing causing them to not use all 15 tuners right now and have four tuners inactive.. If its marketing people should be fired.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> If the software is built to only handle 16-bit ints for the TMS ID, that's all you'll get. The AM21 is pretty old. At the time, there was obviously only 16-bit TMS IDs, so that's how the software was built. When the spec expanded to allow for 32-bit TMS IDs, the AM21 and the DVRs and whatever else is needed in the infrastructure was never updated to support 32-bit.
> 
> Why? Duh... DirecTV (even before the merger) has made it clear that they don't want to support any content other then their own. I'm surprised they haven't removed YouTube support since they've removed OTA support (in the HS17) and MediaShare.


Uh, they don't have Youtube support anymore, but that's because Youtube made a change they haven't made yet.


----------



## NR4P

slice1900 said:


> Question for those with an HS17: does it have a signal strength screen similar to other Genies, where you can choose a tuner and view the signal 'strength' on that tuner? Does that work for only tuners 1-7, only tuners 1-11 or all tuners 1-15?


The First Look showed a tuner screen with signal strengths on each tuner on 99cr. It was all 15.


----------



## hancox

James Long said:


> I do not know why DIRECTV uses the IDs. DISH (as an example of another provider) uses the TSID of the station plus the subchannel number to match up the guide to the channel/subchannels. For example, WSBT in South Bend transmits TSID "047B" on their OTA feed. That TSID refers to the entire broadcast channel (all subchannels). Then in their channel list they have an entry that says (in essence) "if you see an OTA channel transmitting TSID 047B use this channel's EPG for subchannel 01". If they have EPG data for the second subchannel (they do) that entry will say "if you see an OTA channel transmitting TSID 047B use this channel's EPG for subchannel 02". The TMS ID isn't part of the transmitted data so it does not matter how many bits are needed for an ID that isn't used via satellite.
> 
> "We can never add a subchannel with a TMS ID higher than 65535" seems limiting. "Why is DirecTV having a problem that no one else has?" is a good question ... and it appears to have come down to a design choice.


Design *flaw* not choice. No other OTA tuner in existence has this issue. Even older ones than the AM21. It's a mistake.


----------



## dpeters11

inkahauts said:


> Uh, they don't have Youtube support anymore, but that's because Youtube made a change they haven't made yet.


Exactly. And that's why saying they should add Netflix etc. because the apps on SmartTVs might not get updated is flawed.

Not sure why they didn't update it, maybe the data showed that it was infrequently used and not worth the time.


----------



## patmurphey

inkahauts said:


> Uh, they don't have Youtube support anymore, but that's because Youtube made a change they haven't made yet.


Youtube works on the Hopper3 in HD. The change in video format affects 4k because the change was made after the Hopper3 hardware was finalized.


----------



## carl6

carl6 said:


> I can view signal strength on 15 tuners. There is the normal "Test Signal Strength" screen where you see all transponders for a given satellite and tuner, and the "Signal Meters" screen where you can select a transponder and see the results on all tuners. Both show signals on 15 tuners.
> 
> However, the limits of 7 simultaneous viewing/recording channels remains, with 7, 9, or 11 tuners being used depending on 0, 1 or 2 4K channels being part of the 7 viewing/recording events.





NR4P said:


> The First Look showed a tuner screen with signal strengths on each tuner on 99cr. It was all 15.


Here is an update, after seeing a post on another forum forced me to go back and test this again.

There are only 11 active tuners. If you go the signal strength screen, it starts on tuner 1. 
If you scroll UP, you will see signals on tuners 1-11 and no signals on 12-15.
But, if you scroll DOWN (from 1 to 15, 14, ...), you will see signals on 15, 14, etc.

Either direction you scroll, the first 11 tuners you scroll past show signal strength, then you get four without.

So the HS17 does only show 11 active tuners, depending no how you go about checking them.


----------



## P Smith

carl6 said:


> you will see signals on 15, 14, etc.





carl6 said:


> So the HS17 does only show 11 active tuners,


my head is spinning ... could you post pictures, please ?


----------



## SledgeHammer

dpeters11 said:


> Exactly. And that's why saying they should add Netflix etc. because the apps on SmartTVs might not get updated is flawed.
> 
> Not sure why they didn't update it, maybe the data showed that it was infrequently used and not worth the time.


DirecTV isn't supportive of external content. Tbh, I guess its nice that Dish has a lot of 3rd party providers integrated into the Hopper 3, but it really isn't necessary anymore with Smart TVs having all that. The only pro of integrating into a DVR would be that a nice integration would be more convenient to use. Other then that... meh... just remove all that functionality and let the TV do it.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Uh, they don't have Youtube support anymore, but that's because Youtube made a change they haven't made yet.


Oh lol... I still see it pop up in the UI when I do searches, I think... I never use it. Once you take out all the fake videos that are just links to external sites or all the copyright violation videos and all the super stupid stuff like unboxing videos and reaction videos, youtube would have about 5 videos left haha...


----------



## inkahauts

hancox said:


> Design *flaw* not choice. No other OTA tuner in existence has this issue. Even older ones than the AM21. It's a mistake.


This issue has nothing to do with the am21. It's inherent in their entire guide data system that was designed before digital even exsists. It's a design flaw like that of the y2k bug. The difference is DIRECTV doesn't have to fix it so they didn't.


----------



## inkahauts

carl6 said:


> Here is an update, after seeing a post on another forum forced me to go back and test this again.
> 
> There are only 11 active tuners. If you go the signal strength screen, it starts on tuner 1.
> If you scroll UP, you will see signals on tuners 1-11 and no signals on 12-15.
> But, if you scroll DOWN (from 1 to 15, 14, ...), you will see signals on 15, 14, etc.
> 
> If you do the scroll down method, the signal meters will show signal on all 15 tuners. But if you do the scroll up method, they only show signal on 11 tuners.
> 
> So the HS17 does only show 11 active tuners, depending no how you go about checking them.


What's really odd is that if you just select tuner strengths and get all 15 on one screen they all show signal. I'm puzzled to say the least. Maybe it's using 15 tuners but only 11 swim channels and just sues whatever tuner is free to grab up to the 11 swim channels. That makes zero sense too though. Don't know....


----------



## inkahauts

dpeters11 said:


> Exactly. And that's why saying they should add Netflix etc. because the apps on SmartTVs might not get updated is flawed.
> 
> Not sure why they didn't update it, maybe the data showed that it was infrequently used and not worth the time.


I dont think they physically could update until they had other things in place since they changed the way it authenticates. I think they had to put that newer stuff in for espn app though so now maybe it'll come back but only on genies? Just a guess..


----------



## inkahauts

patmurphey said:


> Youtube works on the Hopper3 in HD. The change in video format affects 4k because the change was made after the Hopper3 hardware was finalized.


DIRECTV couldn't even authenticate anymore because of the security they changed to I believe.


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> Oh lol... I still see it pop up in the UI when I do searches, I think... I never use it. Once you take out all the fake videos that are just links to external sites or all the copyright violation videos and all the super stupid stuff like unboxing videos and reaction videos, youtube would have about 5 videos left haha...


I find YouTube useful for learning how something works I haven't used before, like a new product to make wholes in walls for electrical outlets or other similar things. That's it.

Oh, and the 3 second spot of a friend of mine when he was on ER once. LOL!


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> Ok, I did a little digging, looks like 40 per transponder is the max they can get out of a transponder. With 50 in a dswim channel..
> 
> So I guess a couple WAG would be...
> 
> Maybe they need a control channel to coordinate the two bonded transponders?
> 
> They are going to be bonding three transponders, not two...
> 
> Or the more likely reason is they have to make all bonded tuners only work as a single bonded tuner and they do not want to say 7 hd plus 2 4k, because then people would wonder why they can't do 9 hd. That would be really dumb though. I get the feeling we have to wait till they lite up to see what the heck is going on.


No, transponders are not limited to 40 Mbps. They can get what they want (within certain constraints imposed by physics, of course) based on the modulation and error correction they choose. They've chosen to use QPSK 2/3 on CONUS Ka transponders, so they get 40 Mbps (actually 39.4 because there's additional error correction and framing overhead, but to be simple we'll call it 40) They use various other modulations on their Ka spotbeams, some getting as high as 60 Mbps. They could get 60 Mbps out of all their CONUS Ka transponders if they wanted, but that would leave a few db less margin for rain fade.

You're confusing Mbps with MHz with your mention of "50 in a dswim channel". There is no 'bit rate' in a SWM channel, it is measured in MHz only. So let's work backwards here. Directv's Ka and reverse band transponders are 36 MHz wide, with 20% roll off, meaning the part that actually carries data is only 30 MHz wide. With one bit per symbol that's 30 million symbols per second (Ms/s) When they use QPSK that is 2 bits per symbol, 8PSK is 3 bits per symbol. When they use an FEC ratio of 2/3 that means there is one error correction bit for every two bits of data. So you can multiply 30 million symbols per second by 2 bits per symbol by (2/3) and you get 40 million bits per second.

DSWM channels are 51.03 MHz wide, but that's an implementation detail. They were 102.06 MHz wide in the analog SWM, and Directv has a patent suggesting they may use channels only 1 or 2 MHz wider than the transponder (i.e. 37 or 38 MHz) in future SWMs, or even use narrower channels for Ku transponders that are only 24 MHz wide (seems like that would be something only worthwhile to do for the guide channel) The width of SWM channels has no bearing at all on bonded transponders, because it just carries one individual transponder per channel, and it doesn't matter whether it is Ku, Ka or reverse band, or whether it is part of a bonded pair.

There is absolutely no need for a 'control channel' to coordinate bonded transponders. There is nothing special about bonded transponders, I think that language confuses people into thinking they are doing something different on a physical/RF level than they've done before. They are not, they will broadcast them exactly like they broadcast unbonded ones - same width, same frequency, same choices of modulation / error correction, same susceptibility to rain fade. All it means is that they are combining the two bitstreams into one as a step required before the receiver can access the program streams contained within. They don't need any coordination, but they do have to demodulate both of them before they can access anything carried within the pair.

Think of it like this: let's say I made this post in two posts, and the first letter I typed was in post #1, the second letter in post #2, the third in post #1 and so forth. If you looked at either one individually it would be unreadable, but if you took both and alternated letters you'd be able to reconstruct my original post. Bonded transponders wouldn't alternate between something as small as a letter, it would probably be by frame (about 8K) but regardless of the actual size of the 'chunks' that alternate the effect is the same. Just like you couldn't read my post until you combined the two 'bonded posts' together, the receiver can't access any channels carried by the bonded transponder pair until it has demodulated and combined them.

The only circumstance where it would NEED three channels would be if three transponders are bonded instead of two as Phil Goswitz stated Directv planned to do, but I think that's pretty unlikely. I think it is almost certain whatever they are doing either requires or is considerably easier if they have SWM channels dedicated to bonded transponders. I think there's a good chance they are (or rather will be, since there aren't any bonded transponder pairs yet) forced to do the demodulation in software since the tuner chips they are using do not support bonded transponders. If so, they'd have to get the raw output from the tuner's ADC off the chip, and would explain why they require dedicated channels for the bonded pairs.

If that's what they're doing, they will probably be able to get some support for their non standard method built into future tuner chips, just like they had DSS and their own slightly different version of DVB-S2 built into the tuner chips they used in previous receivers. If so, they wouldn't need to reserve some for bonded pairs, and a future 'Genie 2' with two 8 tuner chips with that tweaked design would be able to handle seven 4K channels. At least, if 4K takes off, let's hope that's the case...


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> No, transponders are not limited to 40 Mbps. They can get what they want (within certain constraints imposed by physics, of course) based on the modulation and error correction they choose. They've chosen to use QPSK 2/3 on CONUS Ka transponders, so they get 40 Mbps (actually 39.4 because there's additional error correction and framing overhead, but to be simple we'll call it 40) They use various other modulations on their Ka spotbeams, some getting as high as 60 Mbps. They could get 60 Mbps out of all their CONUS Ka transponders if they wanted, but that would leave a few db less margin for rain fade.
> 
> You're confusing Mbps with MHz with your mention of "50 in a dswim channel". There is no 'bit rate' in a SWM channel, it is measured in MHz only. So let's work backwards here. Directv's Ka and reverse band transponders are 36 MHz wide, with 20% roll off, meaning the part that actually carries data is only 30 MHz wide. With one bit per symbol that's 30 million symbols per second (Ms/s) When they use QPSK that is 2 bits per symbol, 8PSK is 3 bits per symbol. When they use an FEC ratio of 2/3 that means there is one error correction bit for every two bits of data. So you can multiply 30 million symbols per second by 2 bits per symbol by (2/3) and you get 40 million bits per second.
> 
> DSWM channels are 51.03 MHz wide, but that's an implementation detail. They were 102.06 MHz wide in the analog SWM, and Directv has a patent suggesting they may use channels only 1 or 2 MHz wider than the transponder (i.e. 37 or 38 MHz) in future SWMs, or even use narrower channels for Ku transponders that are only 24 MHz wide (seems like that would be something only worthwhile to do for the guide channel) The width of SWM channels has no bearing at all on bonded transponders, because it just carries one individual transponder per channel, and it doesn't matter whether it is Ku, Ka or reverse band, or whether it is part of a bonded pair.
> 
> There is absolutely no need for a 'control channel' to coordinate bonded transponders. There is nothing special about bonded transponders, I think that language confuses people into thinking they are doing something different on a physical/RF level than they've done before. They are not, they will broadcast them exactly like they broadcast unbonded ones - same width, same frequency, same choices of modulation / error correction, same susceptibility to rain fade. All it means is that they are combining the two bitstreams into one as a step required before the receiver can access the program streams contained within. They don't need any coordination, but they do have to demodulate both of them before they can access anything carried within the pair.
> 
> Think of it like this: let's say I made this post in two posts, and the first letter I typed was in post #1, the second letter in post #2, the third in post #1 and so forth. If you looked at either one individually it would be unreadable, but if you took both and alternated letters you'd be able to reconstruct my original post. Bonded transponders wouldn't alternate between something as small as a letter, it would probably be by frame (about 8K) but regardless of the actual size of the 'chunks' that alternate the effect is the same. Just like you couldn't read my post until you combined the two 'bonded posts' together, the receiver can't access any channels carried by the bonded transponder pair until it has demodulated and combined them.
> 
> The only circumstance where it would NEED three channels would be if three transponders are bonded instead of two as Phil Goswitz stated Directv planned to do, but I think that's pretty unlikely. I think it is almost certain whatever they are doing either requires or is considerably easier if they have SWM channels dedicated to bonded transponders. I think there's a good chance they are (or rather will be, since there aren't any bonded transponder pairs yet) forced to do the demodulation in software since the tuner chips they are using do not support bonded transponders. If so, they'd have to get the raw output from the tuner's ADC off the chip, and would explain why they require dedicated channels for the bonded pairs.
> 
> If that's what they're doing, they will probably be able to get some support for their non standard method built into future tuner chips, just like they had DSS and their own slightly different version of DVB-S2 built into the tuner chips they used in previous receivers. If so, they wouldn't need to reserve some for bonded pairs, and a future 'Genie 2' with two 8 tuner chips with that tweaked design would be able to handle seven 4K channels. At least, if 4K takes off, let's hope that's the case...


I meant MHz on everything... looking at the specks there is 40 MHz between different transponder bands..

Well if the useable MHz is only 30 and they plan on sending out 4k at a very high bitrate maybe they need 90 MHz instead of 60 MHz space to really fit in three 4k channels. Or maybe they can fit four or five in if they use three bonded. Without having a clue what actual bitrate and work modulation it's hard to tell. (Heck as I recall they use a different modulation for spot beams than conus for Hi Definition channels)

Maybe they are going to bind three transponders for 4k. Maybe the guy did know what he was saying. That actually makes the most sense imho.


----------



## slice1900

carl6 said:


> Here is an update, after seeing a post on another forum forced me to go back and test this again.
> 
> There are only 11 active tuners. If you go the signal strength screen, it starts on tuner 1.
> If you scroll UP, you will see signals on tuners 1-11 and no signals on 12-15.
> But, if you scroll DOWN (from 1 to 15, 14, ...), you will see signals on 15, 14, etc.
> 
> If you do the scroll down method, the signal meters will show signal on all 15 tuners. But if you do the scroll up method, they only show signal on 11 tuners.
> 
> So the HS17 does only show 11 active tuners, depending no how you go about checking them.


I think I'm more confused now, I guess we can't learn anything definitive from this unless the scrolling down and showing 15 tuners thing is a bug that gets fixed.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I meant MHz on everything...


OK, then there are no transponders that are 40 MHz. Ku are 24 MHz, Ka and reverse band are 36 MHz, and Spaceways are 62.5 MHz - but like how Ka's 36 MHz have only 30 MHz occupied (and Ku have only 20 MHz occupied on Directv...Dish's turbo transponders are a different story) the same is true for the Spaceways having only 30 MHz occupied which is why they can fit into a 51.03 MHz DSWM channel just fine.


----------



## Bigg

KyL416 said:


> You have to understand coding on the machine/assembly code level to fully grasp it. But basically 16 bit integer the highest unsigned value you can have is 0xFFFF or 65535, when the OTA database was first created they weren't even remotely close to that level, but fast forward a few years in addition to the rise of cable system specific edits for channels like TBS, ESPN, NBCSN, BTN and others to handle regional variations and blackouts, TMS also expanded to Europe and Latin America resulting in hundreds of new channels for each of those countries covered in those areas. In order to go higher they would have to change the code everywhere the value is used and everywhere it's referenced to the next highest option, a 32 bit integer 0xFFFFFFFF.


Yeah I understand the 16 bit versus 32 bit capacity issue, I guess where I'm stuck is what are TiVo, ChannelMaster, Tablo, and others doing? Are they using a totally different way of identifying OTA stations, or are they using 32 bit TMS IDs?


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> Watching recordings doesn't use tuners, so that's irrelevant to the question.


I thought it could record one thing while watching another live, requiring 2 tuners. I didn't realize it could only pull one 4k channel off of the satellite at once.


----------



## Bigg

TheRatPatrol said:


> And thats why PIP never worked being built into the TV's. It works better being built into the box thats hooked up to it.


I don't know how much processing power it would require, but using PiP or PbyP with multiple HDMI sources would actually be really useful, but it only seems to work with the internal tuner, like some feature from a bygone era.

That being said, from a control perspective, it would still work better being built into an STB than into a TV. I think DISH has the right idea with sports bar mode.


----------



## Bigg

inkahauts said:


> To change the system to accommodate more channels is a massive project they seem unwilling to do, which is also why I dont believe we will ever see them try and broadcast any sub channels. They dont have their guide data.


Are you referencing broadcasting subchannels via DBS? HD LiLs took a massive amount of bandwidth, subchannels would be insane in their own right, but especially for content that's not terribly popular. I tend to doubt that many of the nationally syndicated subchannels would allow satellite master feeds, as local affiliates put their own ads onto the channels.

If anything, with IP-enabled boxes, they could offer subchannels and larger city PEG channels over the internet, but the effort to do that seems hardly worth the effort. It seems relatively trivial in U-Verse bundles within their 21-state ILEC territory, but I'm still not sure what the licensing looks like there.


----------



## James Long

Bigg said:


> I thought it could record one thing while watching another live, requiring 2 tuners. I didn't realize it could only pull one 4k channel off of the satellite at once.


For clarity, one 4K channel off of the satellites at once is the limit on an HR54. Two 4K channels off of the satellites at one is the limit on a HS17.



Bigg said:


> If anything, with IP-enabled boxes, they could offer subchannels and larger city PEG channels over the internet, but the effort to do that seems hardly worth the effort.


Delivery via IP is a separate carriage agreement. It can work for cable and FIOS type systems where the network for the "cable TV" service is the same as the network for the "internet" service (a closed network with similar delivery and content controls for all channels) but a contract that would allow some channels over the closed network satellite system and others over the open Internet (customers choosing their own internet provider) is more challenging. I would not expect any better carriage via IP than DirecTV NOW where the contracts are written for OTT carriage.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bigg said:


> Yeah I understand the 16 bit versus 32 bit capacity issue, I guess where I'm stuck is what are TiVo, ChannelMaster, Tablo, and others doing? Are they using a totally different way of identifying OTA stations, or are they using 32 bit TMS IDs?


The AM21 and DirecTVs OTA support is dead. The AM21 has long ago been abandoned. They aren't going to maintain it. The other products you mentioned are maintained.


----------



## KyL416

Those devices don't handle OTA the same way, and some of them don't even use TMS/Gracenote for guide data. Some other devices don't use third party data at all and rely on the basic PSIP listings.

This has been explained before in those other threads you can find by searching the forum for 65535. The 65535 is an issue with the APG guide stream, it's not an OTA specific issue, so don't fixate on how the OTA data works with other devices that don't run the same software/firmware, have the same guide data delivery system or even the same guide data provider as DirecTV. For satellite channels when there's a channel with a stationID higher than 65535 they use fake numbers in the gaps in the stationIDs left by defunct and non-North American channels, but they don't do that for OTA channels since they would quickly run out of gaps and have to manually maintain it. In TMS/Gracenote's database they all have unique stationIDs that are shared worldwide, but you subscribe to specific territories, so if you subscribe to North American data, there's gaps in the stationIDs where European only channels like BBC One London (30644) and RAI Uno (21834) would be. If you want more detailed information about this, just search for those threads, nearly every question you might have has already been answered there.


And James, we've been through this before last time you brought the TSID up. Dish and DirecTV have diferent guide data systems, as well as different methods for handling OTA channels. Both have their benefits and drawbacks, The TMSID isn't how they match it to OTA channels, that's just how the guide entry is referenced in the APG guide stream. The actual matching is done by a combination of the major/minor/RF number after you enter the markets zip code, which is why we also get tricks with secondary zip codes where we can import listings from another market to get a missing channel to appear (which may or may not have correct listings), and we can also handle boosters and translators where the major and minor number are the same as the main station but the RF number is different. Dish's method requires them to manually maintain the data and map it to the TSID, which you have personally experienced the drawbacks for with your Fox station which was only fixed this past week. With DirecTV, as long as the stationID is lower than 65535, ANY change involving it done by TMS/Gracenote will be reflected automatically, so DirecTV didn't need to do anything as the listing for your Fox was already reflected in the existing entry for 22-2 WSBTDT2 (34350) and we still have listings for the current Heroes & Icons programming on the former Fox signal 28-1 WSJVDT (32773). Plus you have to deal with numerous stations which for various reasons aren't transmitting the correct TSID, and since no one besides Dish uses the TSID to match listings, the issue can go unnoticed for years (i.e. one of my local stations were using a hand-me-down encoder from a sister station and transmitting that station's TSID until I sent an e-mail to the engineer)


----------



## Bigg

James Long said:


> Delivery via IP is a separate carriage agreement.


True.



KyL416 said:


> Those devices don't handle OTA the same way, and some of them don't even use TMS/Gracenote for guide data. Some other devices don't use third party data at all and rely on the basic PSIP listings.


Ok thanks, that makes more sense. I know CM uses PSIP, but TiVo has it's own guide data, so it must handle things totally differently. TiVo, until recently used Gracenote, now it's got the Rovi mess post-merger.


----------



## James Long

SledgeHammer said:


> The AM21 and DirecTVs OTA support is dead. The AM21 has long ago been abandoned. They aren't going to maintain it. The other products you mentioned are maintained.


And that, concisely, is the business decision that AT&T|DIRECTV has made. The lack of any OTA support on the HS17 reinforces the business decision.


----------



## carl6

P Smith said:


> my head is spinning ... could you post pictures, please ?


Yeah, I need to test more before I speak. Edited my second post to update it.

Whatever direction you scroll from in the signal strength screen, you will find 11 (ELEVEN) active tuners, and four with no strength. What is confusing, is if you scroll down, starting with 1, 15, 14, 13, ... you'll see signals on 15, 14, 13, ... but not on 5, 4, 3, 2. If you scroll up, starting with 1, 2, 3, 4... , you'll see signals on 1 through 11, with 12, 13, 14, 15 with no signal.

When I initially tested, I scrolled down - 1, 15, 14, 13. And stopped about there figuring okay, we've got signal on all 15 tuners. Little did I know DirecTV was plotting against me. 

Why on earth it works that way, I have absolutely no idea. But the bottom line is, there are 11 active tuners.


----------



## slice1900

carl6 said:


> Yeah, I need to test more before I speak. Edited my second post to update it.
> 
> Whatever direction you scroll from in the signal strength screen, you will find 11 (ELEVEN) active tuners, and four with no strength. What is confusing, is if you scroll down, starting with 1, 15, 14, 13, ... you'll see signals on 15, 14, 13, ... but not on 5, 4, 3, 2. If you scroll up, starting with 1, 2, 3, 4... , you'll see signals on 1 through 11, with 12, 13, 14, 15 with no signal.
> 
> When I initially tested, I scrolled down - 1, 15, 14, 13. And stopped about there figuring okay, we've got signal on all 15 tuners. Little did I know DirecTV was plotting against me.
> 
> Why on earth it works that way, I have absolutely no idea. But the bottom line is, there are 11 active tuners.


Ah OK thanks for the clarification, that's what I expected - though it sounds like you found a little bug in the presentation of the tuners depending on which direction you scroll...

Now I'm wondering if we can tell whether tuners 8-11 are demodulated in software. So here's my next question - do any of the info screens provide a temperature inside the unit? Ideally it would be the SoC measuring its own temperature, but I guess there's no way to know where the sensor would be. You'd want the HS17 is otherwise as inactive as possible - no recordings, no clients connected except for a single C61K, both 2.4 & 5.8 GHz wifi turned off, internet unplugged, and then rebooted and left to sit in that state for an hour to reach a minimum equilibrium temperature.

From that starting condition, I wonder if there's a difference if you left it up on the signal strength screen for 10-15 minutes looking at tuner 1 versus looking at tuner 8. If it is demodulating tuner 8 in software, it should be a degree or two higher since it would be doing some work looking at tuner 8 that wouldn't be necessary when looking at tuner 1. Since we can't know where it is measuring the temperature, seeing the same on both tests wouldn't be conclusive I guess, but seeing a higher temperature should be (unless someone can think of another explanation for that)


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> I don't know how much processing power it would require, but using PiP or PbyP with multiple HDMI sources would actually be really useful, but it only seems to work with the internal tuner, like some feature from a bygone era.
> 
> That being said, from a control perspective, it would still work better being built into an STB than into a TV. I think DISH has the right idea with sports bar mode.


The processing power for PIP would be nothing for a modern TV. Heck I had a TV 20 years ago that could do PIP, as well as a VCR that could do it. And that was with analog inputs that would have required the TV to digitize each frame from two sources, combine them into a frame with the PIP window, then (in the case of the VCR at least) modulate that combined frame back to NTSC. Granted HD and 4K pictures have more pixels, but that's nothing compared to how much processing power has advanced in two decades.

If there was demand for it you'd see TVs that would let you select a second input to place in a PIP window. TVs with four HDMI inputs could do a 2x2. Since no TVs can manage even simple PIP, I think we must conclude the demand just isn't there. People on dbstalk are atypical.


----------



## James Long

I believe more people would use PIP if it were easier to use. When I first got a VCR it was clunky ... record one channel at a time and hope that it was compatible with the cable system. That attitude transferred over to DVRs on a satellite receiver. Single tuner receivers where my live viewing was interrupted by a recording was as bad as when I was on cable and had to use the cable box to tune the one channel I was recording. The plus side was that I could watch previously recorded programming and the recordings were much easier to manage than a box of tapes.

But before I got a DVR and even after having some early experiences I didn't think it was that big of a deal. The DVR has improved to multiple tuners and whole home distribution of the content (I have had those features since 2006). Now I would not buy a system without a DVR. It has become a standard feature that I miss when traveling. (Some day I am going to press the pause button at my father in law's house and blow his mind.)

I do not use PIP on a daily or weekly basis but I do use it. And I would consider it a compromise to buy a receiver or client that did not have PIP.


----------



## carl6

I never cared for DirecTVs impelementation of PIP. Too hard to get to, not enough flexibility as to size of PIP and placement on screen.
I have a TV that does PIP okay, other than the second input has to be analog coax in. If they would only give me two hdmi inputs I could PIP, I would love it.

What I really need (want) is Skreenz, but it doesn't look like they will ever move from kickstarter to production. Sad.


----------



## inkahauts

carl6 said:


> Yeah, I need to test more before I speak. Edited my second post to update it.
> 
> Whatever direction you scroll from in the signal strength screen, you will find 11 (ELEVEN) active tuners, and four with no strength. What is confusing, is if you scroll down, starting with 1, 15, 14, 13, ... you'll see signals on 15, 14, 13, ... but not on 5, 4, 3, 2. If you scroll up, starting with 1, 2, 3, 4... , you'll see signals on 1 through 11, with 12, 13, 14, 15 with no signal.
> 
> When I initially tested, I scrolled down - 1, 15, 14, 13. And stopped about there figuring okay, we've got signal on all 15 tuners. Little did I know DirecTV was plotting against me.
> 
> Why on earth it works that way, I have absolutely no idea. But the bottom line is, there are 11 active tuners.


For me the most confusing is when you look at the screen that shows all 15 tuners having strength at one time. It's just weird.


----------



## hancox

inkahauts said:


> This issue has nothing to do with the am21. It's inherent in their entire guide data system that was designed before digital even exsists. It's a design flaw like that of the y2k bug. The difference is DIRECTV doesn't have to fix it so they didn't.


Sorry, but this is incorrect. Dish has had this right for ages, with essentially a similar issue:

1) If there is guide data, use it.
2) If there isn't, let the channel be tuned, but with a placeholder in the guide.

DirecTV chose to pull scanning (twice, if memory serves), and continue on with this flaw present.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Bigg/Slice/James/Carl

The problem I saw with having PIP built into the TV is that you had to have two built in tuners, which always didn't get you encrypted channels, which led to having to have two receivers hooked up in which you had to have 3 remote controls to control everything, TV plus two receivers. That got complicated. Which is why having PIP built into the receiver makes it much easier to control. Dish's sports bar mode is a great example of this.

Carl, whats the latest on Skreenz? I'm surprised they haven't taken off yet, that would solve a lot of the problem. But again it would require multiple boxes being hooked up to one device with multiple remotes. Maybe they feel there wouldn't be enough average users buying them?


----------



## carl6

I check Skreenz every few months and see no new information. I have no idea if they will ever come to market. They publicize a bit (mostly on facebook or twitter), which suggests they still exist, and I think someone posted on facebook they never got their kickstarter box. Their web page has nothing of value.


----------



## inazsully

Holy crap. Is this thread still about the latest HS-17


----------



## James Long

inazsully said:


> Holy crap. Is this thread still about the latest HS-17


Currently people are complaining about the lack of OTA support and PIP, with illustrations.


----------



## HoTat2

inazsully said:


> Holy crap. Is this thread still about the latest HS-17


Yeah it is ...

It's just with a thread this long there going to be some inevitable drift at times ...

Which I have no problem with as long as it doesn't degenerate into jokes and sarcasm.

Anyway, new S.S. podcast, Stuart's latest take on the HS17 for those interested...






Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## jimmie57

If this is supposed to roll out this month, when does anyone think we might get some pricing guidelines for it ?


----------



## slice1900

TheRatPatrol said:


> The problem I saw with having PIP built into the TV is that you had to have two built in tuners, which always didn't get you encrypted channels, which led to having to have two receivers hooked up in which you had to have 3 remote controls to control everything, TV plus two receivers. That got complicated. Which is why having PIP built into the receiver makes it much easier to control. Dish's sports bar mode is a great example of this.


My PIP TV was just one tuner, and let you choose any input for both the main screen and the window. Only one could be a live TV channel (this was back when cable TV was analog so you didn't need a box) but if you had a VCR connected through composite or S-video, as most of us did back then, you could use its tuner also, totaling two live channels at once. I used to do that all the time on football Saturdays / Sundays to allow me to watch two games, and quickly flip between them with the remote button that inverted the selection. Now I don't have any need for PIP because I can flip between tuners or record.

The VCR I had only let you do PIP between its RF input and whatever tape you were playing, which was less useful but I didn't buy it for the PIP and only used it until I got the TV that had it.

If they implemented PIP in a modern TV it wouldn't need extra tuners, it would let you select between the various inputs the TV has (HDMIx, composite, component, RF) As far as I'm concerned it would work equally well in a TV that had no tuner at all.

If it was implemented in a receiver it might be a bit simpler since you'd only need one remote - though that can be fixed with a universal remote. But on the other hand you wouldn't have the ability to do PIP between Directv and Apple TV, for example, so you'd get more flexibility from PIP built into a TV.

Sports bar mode is nice, and I wouldn't mind being able to have it on a few TVs in my bar, but I can't see when I'd ever use it at home. It is hard to see any way in which that's superior versus having four live tuners you swap between. Now I'm not sure how easy that sort of thing is to do on a client, but if isn't easy I think Directv would get more bang for the buck addressing that than adding a 'sports bar mode'. You have four games on at once, you pause it before you switch tuners, and FF through commercials, official reviews, halftime and other dead time, then switch to the next when you catch up to live. I guess you'd simply have to record all four to make this work, which makes it a bit harder to switch between live tuners than it is on my Tivo, but it'll do the job.


----------



## slice1900

jimmie57 said:


> If this is supposed to roll out this month, when does anyone think we might get some pricing guidelines for it ?


My bet would be the same price as the Genie, or possibly $50 cheaper.


----------



## slice1900

hancox said:


> Sorry, but this is incorrect. Dish has had this right for ages, with essentially a similar issue:
> 
> 1) If there is guide data, use it.
> 2) If there isn't, let the channel be tuned, but with a placeholder in the guide.
> 
> DirecTV chose to pull scanning (twice, if memory serves), and continue on with this flaw present.


What you suggest is exactly how it worked before. Supposedly Directv got too many support calls about the lack of guide data for channels with TMS IDs > 65535, and as the number of such channels exploded that issue was only going to get worse. So they decided to 'fix' it by only letting it include stations in the database.

We're at a point now where over one out of three OTA channels (probably half if you consider only subchannels) has such a TMS ID, which may be why Directv decided to drop support for the AM21 instead of selling something so clearly unfit that was getting less unfit by the month as the number of stations > 65535 continued to increase.

If they do something about the guide data (i.e. some updated format which fixes that and presumably adds some other bells and whistles that only the HS17 can understand) to resolve that issue, I think there's a decent chance that within a year or so they might introduce a new OTA dongle that adds ATSC 3.0 support. But if they can't/won't fix the guide thing, that's it for OTA on Directv.

Which is sad, because it would give them so much more leverage with locals during disputes. Even if only a quarter of customers in an average DMA could use it (i.e. those who could get by with an indoor antenna, or have desire to add one on their roof it they don't already have one) could benefit that would be something the stations would have to take into account when making their demands.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> If there was demand for it you'd see TVs that would let you select a second input to place in a PIP window. TVs with four HDMI inputs could do a 2x2. Since no TVs can manage even simple PIP, I think we must conclude the demand just isn't there. People on dbstalk are atypical.





TheRatPatrol said:


> Bigg/Slice/James/Carl
> 
> The problem I saw with having PIP built into the TV is that you had to have two built in tuners, which always didn't get you encrypted channels, which led to having to have two receivers hooked up in which you had to have 3 remote controls to control everything, TV plus two receivers. That got complicated. Which is why having PIP built into the receiver makes it much easier to control. Dish's sports bar mode is a great example of this.
> 
> Carl, whats the latest on Skreenz? I'm surprised they haven't taken off yet, that would solve a lot of the problem. But again it would require multiple boxes being hooked up to one device with multiple remotes. Maybe they feel there wouldn't be enough average users buying them?


Yeah, I thought it through again, and I realized that you really need to do it in the box, otherwise you need multiple boxes or other video sources. Picture by picture would be OK for streaming and live tv, or a game and live TV or something at once, but then you're wasting half the screen.

The Skreenz thing sounds cool, but it needs a 4k output to use the higher resolution, and it's very limited due to the box issue. I have a relatively unusual situation in that I still have about 70 analog cable channels, it's the last system in the state of Connecticut to have much/any analog available, and one of the last anywhere. This never worked with DBS. I guess it would work with March Madness or football, since one game would be available OTA and you could use the internal tuner for that.


----------



## inkahauts

hancox said:


> Sorry, but this is incorrect. Dish has had this right for ages, with essentially a similar issue:
> 
> 1) If there is guide data, use it.
> 2) If there isn't, let the channel be tuned, but with a placeholder in the guide.
> 
> DirecTV chose to pull scanning (twice, if memory serves), and continue on with this flaw present.


Actually you agree the issue isn't the am21 right? It's how they want to run their guide data. And I think they foolishly think it's such a bigger issue for a customer to have regular programing written they don't want to do it.

I'm not convineced scanning doesn't cause other issues for their receivers anyway and why it was pulled though.


----------



## hancox

inkahauts said:


> Actually you agree the issue isn't the am21 right? It's how they want to run their guide data. And I think they foolishly think it's such a bigger issue for a customer to have regular programing written they don't want to do it.
> 
> I'm not convineced scanning doesn't cause other issues for their receivers anyway and why it was pulled though.


I don't make the distinction between the AM21 and the HR20's OTA implementation, because i had both, and they're largely the same. It's the OTA implementation that has a design flaw, and the AM21 is simply the means to plug in the cord.


----------



## inkahauts

hancox said:


> I don't make the distinction between the AM21 and the HR20's OTA implementation, because i had both, and they're largely the same. It's the OTA implementation that has a design flaw, and the AM21 is simply the means to plug in the cord.


That's my point. It's not a hardware issue with the over the air abilities. It's a combination of the hardware that runs the guide data and DIRECTV's method for guide data useage and storage that is the issue.


----------



## slice1900

Stuart posted an article on Solid Signal's blog about Directv OTA. He said everyone he's talked to said there's nothing currently under development for OTA on Directv, so things don't look for the future on that front.


----------



## inkahauts

Sadly I don't see them concerning themselves with over the air going forward.


----------



## slice1900

I've pretty much resigned myself to that, and if/when they support the HS17 and clients for commercial I'll get rid of my H20s and H24/AM21 combos, and be forced to use the TV's tuner for OTA.

Currently I have the TVs connected to cable (SD only except for locals) as an emergency backup in case Directv goes out, but I hear rumors that Mediacom in my area is going to be switching to MPEG4 and/or encrypting the locals within a year, which would mean the end of that.

I don't value OTA as much as I used to, because all the major stations here have three subchannels, when two used to have none at all and had pictures dramatically better than Directv provided. Now they are pretty much the same quality.


----------



## Bigg

That's too bad. It's pretty clear that they want the simplest system to install and support that's possible. That's how we are quickly moving towards a SWiM21 RBLNB with a very narrow arc (99c-101-103c), and the HS17 handling everything else, no OTA, no multiswitches in most residential installs, etc.


----------



## Billzebub

You know, i can receive all my locals but one with an indoor antenna. I bet if I got an outdoor one I could pull that one in. With Dish having a 16 tuner DVR and OTA support (that's important because of Dish's habit of channel disputes) it might be time to consider a change.


----------



## slice1900

Billzebub said:


> You know, i can receive all my locals but one with an indoor antenna. I bet if I got an outdoor one I could pull that one in. With Dish having a 16 tuner DVR and OTA support (that's important because of Dish's habit of channel disputes) it might be time to consider a change.


If you do switch, when you call Directv to cancel and they ask why, make sure you mention the dropping of OTA support as one of your reasons. If they don't ever hear that from customers, they won't know people care about it.


----------



## texasbrit

Many of your locals will disappear when ATSC 3.0 arrives, and you will be in for new technology for the rest. So why would DirecTV invest in something that will be gone in a few years?


----------



## hancox

texasbrit said:


> Many of your locals will disappear when ATSC 3.0 arrives, and you will be in for new technology for the rest. So why would DirecTV invest in something that will be gone in a few years?


Because it's a differentiator between them and cable. It makes installations more "sticky"

Take away OTA (and portability, which the HS17 accomplishes too), and DirecTV looks an awful lot like cable to me.

Now, if charter would only upgrade my crappy area, and things would get interesting.


----------



## slice1900

texasbrit said:


> Many of your locals will disappear when ATSC 3.0 arrives, and you will be in for new technology for the rest. So why would DirecTV invest in something that will be gone in a few years?


There have been ATSC 3.0 chips available for a few months now, so I expect we'll start seeing ATSC 3.0 capable OTA devices from the usual suspects before the end of the year. I was hoping that perhaps the reason Directv was ditching the AM21 (apart from all its other issues) was to start fresh with an OTA adapter that adds ATSC 3.0 support. However, with Stuart saying no one he's talked to has any knowledge of a new one being worked on, it appears less likely. I would have hoped he'd be told nothing was being worked on now, but say something to the effect of "never say never".

The good news (if there is any) is they would probably not be planning to 'design' anything this time around, but simply relabel/repackage a USB stick from Hauppage or whoever. If so, the turnaround would be pretty quick, and having to wait for such products to appear would explain why they aren't working on anything right now. The HS17 software wasn't a ground up rewrite of the Genie's software, so the code still exists (aside from kernel drivers for the particular model of USB stick) even if it is disabled on the HS17 today.

Of course, like I said before, this is all academic if the guide data issues aren't addressed one way or another. They can't offer a new product where guide data for half the subchannels in the country is unavailable.

There's another important factor that should make them want to consider supporting ATSC 3.0 - 4K. While ATSC 3.0 broadcasting is no assurance of 4K broadcasting, if 4K locals do happen it is clearly impossible for Directv to deliver them via satellite. Cable may be starting slowly in 4K, mainly because as an industry they're planning to use DOCSIS 3.1 to deliver 4K, but it will be simple for them to offer locals in 4K once they get there.

Directv has been an early and avid supporter of 4K, but they will lose any claim to 4K leadership if cable is your only choice to get your locals in 4K. That would mean no Super Bowl in 4K, along with all the other sports and events that are broadcast by the major networks. Look at this week - getting dedicated Masters channels on certain holes in 4K wouldn't mean much with the Masters itself broadcast on CBS, if you can't get your CBS station in 4K but your neighbor with cable can. That might be what Directv customers in 2020 face.


----------



## texasbrit

You miss my point here. With the reduction in available OTA bandwidth, and the possibility of stations licensing ATSC 3 space to subchannels, the OTA picture will probably look completely different in three years. And right now no-one knows.


----------



## James Long

Is ATSC 3.0 compatible with current ATSC OTA reception? Can an RF channel have the current ATSC channels and add a 3.0 subchannel or once they change do they lose the ability to serve old tuners? I do not see OTA stations changing if they have to turn off their old feeds. And the government will not be handing out additional bandwidth for an extended conversion period the way they did for the NTSC to ATSC conversion. Unless ATSC 3.0 can be on the same RF carrier as the current signals I do not expect to see it adopted OTA without major shifts in the television landscape.


----------



## inkahauts

texasbrit said:


> You miss my point here. With the reduction in available OTA bandwidth, and the possibility of stations licensing ATSC 3 space to subchannels, the OTA picture will probably look completely different in three years. And right now no-one knows.


You seem to think the broadcaster actually care about atsc3.0. Personally I'm not yet convinced.


----------



## CraigerM

I was reading that 4ft for WIFI rule again and I know now I read that wrong and it looks like if you WIFI to connect the HS-17 to the Internet you shouldn't have it 4ft from another WIFI device for possible interference and not for the range. I was wondering how would that work for someone that would want to put the HS-17 in an entertainment center and the HS-17 would be next to their HDTV or 4k TV that has WIFI? Would the HDTV or 4k TV with WIFI really interfere with the HS-17's WIFI a lot?

I know they would prefer using Ethernet for the HS-17 being connected to the Internet however, if you did want to use WIFI to connect the HS-17 to Internet would their be a recommended range for the HS-17 from where the Gateway is?


----------



## Bill Broderick

They're saying that it shouldn't be within 4 feet of your wifi router. There is no problem with it being near a WiFi receiver. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Mkm1998

Dunno if it's just because I'm in San Diego (Supposingly one of the test markets), but I just logged into Directv.com, and looked at Order new equipment, and it's listed. They're calling it a 'Genie Server' and it's $399 to order. Can't tell exactly if there is a monthly fee as well for it. It just says this under the picture: All equipment is leased. Advanced Receiver Service ($15/mo). A monthly fee of $7.00 applies for each receiver and/or Genie Mini/DIRECTV Ready TV on your account.


----------



## Mkm1998

The more I look at it, I think even though the title doesn't say receiver, they are still classifying it as a receiver and will probably ask for an additional $7 a month for it. True I'll have to give up my current receiver, so that will negate the cost, but then my main 4K TV will have to either get RVU ready activated for the extra $7 a month. Trying to figure out what the advantage (if any) there really is to switching. I don't think there really is yet.


----------



## CraigerM

I wonder if current RVU TV's would perform better and faster connected to the HS-17 than with the HR-44 and HR-54? Maybe even perform better than the clients?


----------



## Mkm1998

So just for reference, my current set up is as follows: 4 TVs in the house, main TV is only 4k, but also only TV that has option for wired receiver. So currently have the 54 Receiver for the 4k RVU ready tv, and 3 wireless mini genies on the others. Because of the way 4k currently works, I'd have to pay for a wired 4k mini genie, or pay to activate the RVU on the TV. Either way it's another $7 a month. 

I was hoping this new Genie Server would solve the problem, but as I understand it, no TV can connect directly to it. So replacing a current DVR with the Genie Server would result in that TV needing either to be activated as a RVU ready tv or an additional mini genie. So again, another $7 a month. 

It's just frustrating because I'm a fairly new DirecTV subscriber, got in when it was still the promotion of having up to 4 tvs connected for one price. I wonder if they would waive the fees since like I said when I bought I was told my price was for 4 tvs, and now with the new receiver you'd need additional equipment to hook up 4 tvs. Obviously it's all new ground so not expecting an answer, but I just wish they would have come out with a regular receiver that could output 4k directly to a TV.


----------



## slice1900

texasbrit said:


> You miss my point here. With the reduction in available OTA bandwidth, and the possibility of stations licensing ATSC 3 space to subchannels, the OTA picture will probably look completely different in three years. And right now no-one knows.


True, no one knows how it will all shake out, but the additional ~7 Mbps available, plus being able to compress with HEVC instead of MPEG2 will mean that they can easily fit 3-4x as many HD or SD channels in a single RF channel that's been converted to ATSC 3.0. Even if we see 4K broadcast it will only be the four major networks, plus perhaps PBS. You'll never see the little guys like ION or MyTV go 4K, so we could see MORE subchannels in an ATSC 3.0 future, even with channels 38-50 going away. The FCC is encouraging channel sharing, especially among the smaller players.

I think the FCC is scheduled to publish the repack plan later this month, with documents showing exactly how much each station that participated in the auction will be paid, and the schedule for the repack (i.e. when and to what channel stations that are moving will move to) We should have a better idea then when we see how many channels took the option to be bought out in large markets.


----------



## jimmie57

Mkm1998 said:


> So just for reference, my current set up is as follows: 4 TVs in the house, main TV is only 4k, but also only TV that has option for wired receiver. So currently have the 54 Receiver for the 4k RVU ready tv, and 3 wireless mini genies on the others. Because of the way 4k currently works, I'd have to pay for a wired 4k mini genie, or pay to activate the RVU on the TV. Either way it's another $7 a month.
> 
> I was hoping this new Genie Server would solve the problem, but as I understand it, no TV can connect directly to it. So replacing a current DVR with the Genie Server would result in that TV needing either to be activated as a RVU ready tv or an additional mini genie. So again, another $7 a month.
> 
> It's just frustrating because I'm a fairly new DirecTV subscriber, got in when it was still the promotion of having up to 4 tvs connected for one price. I wonder if they would waive the fees since like I said when I bought I was told my price was for 4 tvs, and now with the new receiver you'd need additional equipment to hook up 4 tvs. Obviously it's all new ground so not expecting an answer, but I just wish they would have come out with a regular receiver that could output 4k directly to a TV.


I logged into my account and chose Upgrade Equipment and this new device / receiver / server does not show here in south Texas.


----------



## slice1900

James Long said:


> Is ATSC 3.0 compatible with current ATSC OTA reception? Can an RF channel have the current ATSC channels and add a 3.0 subchannel or once they change do they lose the ability to serve old tuners? I do not see OTA stations changing if they have to turn off their old feeds. And the government will not be handing out additional bandwidth for an extended conversion period the way they did for the NTSC to ATSC conversion. Unless ATSC 3.0 can be on the same RF carrier as the current signals I do not expect to see it adopted OTA without major shifts in the television landscape.


ATSC 3.0 is NOT backwards compatible. It uses COFDM modulation like LTE, versus ATSC 1.0's 8VSB. That will improve reception in marginal conditions, but more importantly it will allow stations the option of having multiple antennas broadcasting on the same frequency to provide much better coverage. That was not possible with ATSC 1.0, so the 'translators' used in mountainous areas etc. required a different RF channel and had to use PSIP to show the right identity, and since licenses for different RF channels were expensive this capability had to be used sparingly. Theoretically a station could set up small cheap transmitters on cell towers every 5 miles and cover an area far better than one big tower. Or at least do that to fill in gaps, like say a town that has a big hill between it and the towers.

Once a channel goes ATSC 3.0, ATSC 1.0 tuners can't receive it. The way they're planning to get around this problem is to have stations in a market area cooperate. So one goes ATSC 3.0, and has other stations(s) in the area carry its programming on their ATSC 1.0 channels, and they reciprocate by carrying the other station(s) programming on their ATSC 3.0 channel. Over time all the stations will be converted, with an ATSC 1.0 'lighthouse' channel or two carrying programming for everyone who has gone ATSC 3.0 for an extended period. In reality some of the smaller stations will stick with ATSC 1.0 for a lot longer than the major network affiliates, possibly forever, and they could use the income they could make carrying ATSC 1.0 channels for those network affiliates.

The benefits of ATSC 3.0 in terms of greater bandwidth and being able to use far more efficient compression than old school MPEG2 outweigh the difficulties of a non backwards compatible transition. I think stations will want to go ATSC 3.0 for that reason alone, and the ability to go 4K is sort of a "maybe someday that will be nice but that's not the main reason we're doing this".

It isn't like it will be a big deal, I'm sure you'll be able to buy cheap ATSC 3.0 sticks to plug into your ATSC 1.0 TV. Stations might even choose to subsidize the cost to keep their viewers happy. Of course you can keep watching the ATSC 1.0 stuff that will likely be available for years after the station goes ATSC 3.0. It might be lower quality though, if they have to compress it more to fit in the reduced number of ATSC 1.0 channels.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> You seem to think the broadcaster actually care about atsc3.0. Personally I'm not yet convinced.


I used to be more skeptical because I was thinking of it in terms of doing it only for 4K. If you think about it in terms of how much extra bandwidth they will have to carry multiple HD channels due to the far better compression I think it becomes a much better bet.

The FCC is even allowing them to carry encrypted pay services in their spare bandwidth, so they could sell PPV or someone could create the next 'HBO' using spare bandwidth from ATSC 3.0 stations. Probably that will never happen since streaming is viable for most people, but in Mexico where internet access isn't nearly so good that might become a thing (assuming their version of the FCC allows the same thing)


----------



## slice1900

Mkm1998 said:


> The more I look at it, I think even though the title doesn't say receiver, they are still classifying it as a receiver and will probably ask for an additional $7 a month for it. True I'll have to give up my current receiver, so that will negate the cost, but then my main 4K TV will have to either get RVU ready activated for the extra $7 a month. Trying to figure out what the advantage (if any) there really is to switching. I don't think there really is yet.


Why do you think that? It sounds like you are just worrying over nothing. I think there is zero chance they will charge the $7/month for the HS17, because that has always been a fee that is associated with TVs. They even make deals where they say "up to 4 TVs free", not "up to four receivers free".

I'll eat my words if they do charge that way for it, but I'm not worried I will have to.


----------



## Mkm1998

slice1900 said:


> Why do you think that? It sounds like you are just worrying over nothing. I think there is zero chance they will charge the $7/month for the HS17, because that has always been a fee that is associated with TVs. They even make deals where they say "up to 4 TVs free", not "up to four receivers free".
> 
> I'll eat my words if they do charge that way for it, but I'm not worried I will have to.


Okay, so I get that this is all guessing until I actually talk to someone at DirecTV, but I'm just wondering if switching my account will change my monthly fees in any way:

Currently I have the HR54 and 3 wireless Genie Minis. As I understand it, switching to this new setup would cause me to drop the HR54, pick up the HR17, and also activate a RVU Ready 4k tv. If what you say is correct, that the Genie Server doesn't have a monthly fee with it, then yeah I might be able to make the switch without a monthly fee increase.

Of course I still have to attend to the $399 cost of the device, plus the $99 service call. Almost wish they could waive it all since I'm in a test market. Haha, fat chance I know, but I can wish.


----------



## inkahauts

Mkm1998 said:


> So just for reference, my current set up is as follows: 4 TVs in the house, main TV is only 4k, but also only TV that has option for wired receiver. So currently have the 54 Receiver for the 4k RVU ready tv, and 3 wireless mini genies on the others. Because of the way 4k currently works, I'd have to pay for a wired 4k mini genie, or pay to activate the RVU on the TV. Either way it's another $7 a month.
> 
> I was hoping this new Genie Server would solve the problem, but as I understand it, no TV can connect directly to it. So replacing a current DVR with the Genie Server would result in that TV needing either to be activated as a RVU ready tv or an additional mini genie. So again, another $7 a month.
> 
> It's just frustrating because I'm a fairly new DirecTV subscriber, got in when it was still the promotion of having up to 4 tvs connected for one price. I wonder if they would waive the fees since like I said when I bought I was told my price was for 4 tvs, and now with the new receiver you'd need additional equipment to hook up 4 tvs. Obviously it's all new ground so not expecting an answer, but I just wish they would have come out with a regular receiver that could output 4k directly to a TV.


I do t believe you are reading it right. Shouldn't be a monthly fee on the hs17 so you should be able to use it and four clients/RVU tvs for the same price as you pay now and get your 4k. No extra 7.


----------



## b52pooh

Customers will only be charged per Genie Mini per month, NOT for the Genie 2 unit itself. The Genie 2(TM) unit does not connect to a TV. Example: Genie 2(TM) + Genie mini = 1 TV charge


----------



## Mkm1998

b52pooh said:


> Customers will only be charged per Genie Mini per month, NOT for the Genie 2 unit itself. The Genie 2(TM) unit does not connect to a TV. Example: Genie 2(TM) + Genie mini = 1 TV charge


Got it! So basically, if DirecTV switches my HR54 for a HR17, in their mind, I would have 1 less TV charge on my account, but since I purchased when it was 'up to 4 TVs' and was using all 4 TVs, I should be able to activate a RVU for no extra charge. (1 RVU plus 3 wireless mini genies and HR17 = Same connections as 3 wireless mini genies and HR54, so same price).


----------



## slice1900

Mkm1998 said:


> Okay, so I get that this is all guessing until I actually talk to someone at DirecTV, but I'm just wondering if switching my account will change my monthly fees in any way:
> 
> Currently I have the HR54 and 3 wireless Genie Minis. As I understand it, switching to this new setup would cause me to drop the HR54, pick up the HR17, and also activate a RVU Ready 4k tv. If what you say is correct, that the Genie Server doesn't have a monthly fee with it, then yeah I might be able to make the switch without a monthly fee increase.
> 
> Of course I still have to attend to the $399 cost of the device, plus the $99 service call. Almost wish they could waive it all since I'm in a test market. Haha, fat chance I know, but I can wish.


If you're prepared to pay $399 for what would be a fairly minor upgrade from the HR54 (unless you need the extra tuners) I'm not sure why you'd be sweating over possibly paying $7/month more. Why not wait until your contract has expired (after two years with Directv) and get a free upgrade?


----------



## Mkm1998

slice1900 said:


> If you're prepared to pay $399 for what would be a fairly minor upgrade from the HR54 (unless you need the extra tuners) I'm not sure why you'd be sweating over possibly paying $7/month more. Why not wait until your contract has expired (after two years with Directv) and get a free upgrade?


It's actually more than anything a wiring problem more. I've got so many components hooked into the main TV and plugs there that I'd love to be able to eliminate a couple if at all possible. (TV, DVR, PS4 Pro, X-Box One S, Switch, Wii U, Sonos, Apple TV, Soundbar, Cable Modem, Ethernet Switch). Haha, what I really need to do is just go through it all and just organize the wires. But yeah, if I can eliminate the wireless bridge and possibly the media connection adapter from Directv, that would be a big help down there.


----------



## carl6

Mkm1998 said:


> Okay, so I get that this is all guessing until I actually talk to someone at DirecTV, but I'm just wondering if switching my account will change my monthly fees in any way:
> 
> Currently I have the HR54 and 3 wireless Genie Minis. As I understand it, switching to this new setup would cause me to drop the HR54, pick up the HR17, and also activate a RVU Ready 4k tv. If what you say is correct, that the Genie Server doesn't have a monthly fee with it, then yeah I might be able to make the switch without a monthly fee increase.
> 
> Of course I still have to attend to the $399 cost of the device, plus the $99 service call. Almost wish they could waive it all since I'm in a test market. Haha, fat chance I know, but I can wish.


I think you have it figured out correctly, but if you already have an HR54, at this point in time there is little justification to upgrade to the HS17.


----------



## CraigerM

So do they have a new fee structure with the HS-17?


----------



## RAD

CraigerM said:


> So do they have a new fee structure with the HS-17?


My understanding is no monthly charge for the HS17 but each client does have one.


----------



## CraigerM

RAD said:


> My understanding is no monthly charge for the HS17 but each client does have one.


So they aren't going to do the $15 Advanced Receiver Fee anymore?


----------



## HoTat2

CraigerM said:


> So do they have a new fee structure with the HS-17?


Yeah ... interesting question...

I'm on the oldest $10 + $10 + $3 fee structure as well ...

But how do you make this structure fit with the HS17 which won't have a monthly receiver lease fee to legitimately waive as it has no TV output?

Probably just eliminate this oldest fee structure and move us to the newest $15.00 ARF + charge for all clients ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

But of course that would be bad for me as I'm on the oldest fee structure with a grandfathered Premier pk. which waives the monthly $10.00 "DVR" fee. So I get an overall $17.00 monthly discount after the first receiver fee is waived ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

carl6 said:


> I think you have it figured out correctly, but if you already have an HR54, at this point in time there is little justification to upgrade to the HS17.


If he really wants the 4k on that tv and can't use anything g but wireless in the other rooms then it does save 7 a month be adding the additional RVU client to get 4k in the tv the hr54 is on...

Personally I would call and see if they will give it to you for free and if not then wait. I imagine that it will be a free upgrade at some point this year, but that's just a guess.


----------



## inkahauts

CraigerM said:


> So they aren't going to do the $15 Advanced Receiver Fee anymore?


No. Why would that change? That's a per account fee for dvr service. They also charge per tv connection. Everything is the same except there's now one additional box. Heck if you had a wvb before and don't need it now there are the exact same number of boxes.


----------



## inkahauts

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah ... interesting question...
> 
> I'm on the oldest $10 + $10 + $3 fee structure as well ...
> 
> But how do you make this structure fit with the HS17 which won't have a monthly receiver lease fee to legitimately waive as it has no TV output?
> 
> Probably just eliminate this oldest fee structure and move us to the newest $15.00 ARF + charge for all clients ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I don't think it's that complicated. I'm on the same old pricing and it says 7 per tv and first free. They don't need to change squat to make this work, the new server doesn't count as a tv. They just need to count clients for tvs and you are set. No change necessary.


----------



## RAD

RAD said:


> My understanding is no monthly charge for the HS17 but each client does have one.


Never said that, just there isn't the $7 fee for the HS17 AFAIK


----------



## James Long

slice1900 said:


> The FCC is even allowing them to carry encrypted pay services in their spare bandwidth, so they could sell PPV or someone could create the next 'HBO' using spare bandwidth from ATSC 3.0 stations.


The rules allow that for ATSC as well. Broadcasters are required to have one clear feed transmitting in one of the 18 approved formats. The rest of the subchannels can be anything (encrypted, scrambled, non-standard, etc.). They can even have special mobile feeds on the current ATSC. I watched them a few years ago in the Chicago area. ATSC 3.0 will take an FCC rule change since no subchannel will be compatible with the current ATSC tuner.

Putting subscription channels on "extra" bandwidth has been attempted since ATSC was introduced. I believe it is still going on in some markets on a limited basis. But any success has been barely noticeable. ATSC 3.0 may provide a better platform for such services - at the cost of no feed being available to ATSC 1.0 viewers.

Licensing would need to change for stations to freely use on channel repeaters. The FCC does not license TV stations by footprint like cellular/wireless services where a licensee is granted a market that follows county lines and can install as many towers as they want as long as they do not interfere with other licensees. TV is licensed by the tower location and height/power levels. The predicted coverage provides a protected coverage area but adding fill in translators requires additional licensing.

The biggest problem is that the FCC wants to repack broadcast TV ... turning over space used by current broadcasters to wireless data carriers. Basically shrinking the available channels that could be used for ATSC 3.0. I can see the FCC allowing stations to discontinue ATSC and change to ATSC 3.0 IF it furthers the goal of reducing the number of channels consumed by broadcasters. In the end ATSC 3.0 may be more of a way to maintain the current level of service than expand the number of options available.

A OTA conversion to ATSC 3.0 will be messy at best. If AT&T|DIRECTV wanted to support OTA they could do so with a current ATSC tuner module. But they have decided to walk away from OTA and concentrate on satellite and subscription services.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> No. Why would that change? That's a per account fee for dvr service. They also charge per tv connection. Everything is the same except there's now one additional box. Heck if you had a wvb before and don't need it now there are the exact same number of boxes.


And if you had an HR34/HR44 you have one less box, since you no longer need a separate PI.


----------



## slice1900

James Long said:


> The rules allow that for ATSC as well. Broadcasters are required to have one clear feed transmitting in one of the 18 approved formats. The rest of the subchannels can be anything (encrypted, scrambled, non-standard, etc.). They can even have special mobile feeds on the current ATSC. I watched them a few years ago in the Chicago area. ATSC 3.0 will take an FCC rule change since no subchannel will be compatible with the current ATSC tuner.


The FCC has already issued a notice of their intention to permit ATSC 3.0 rollout, and asked for comment on stuff like tuner mandates for new TVs, with the goal of having something finalized before the end of the year.


----------



## CraigerM

Does the 4ft WIFI rule from the Gateway for interference that is just for WIFI right? You could have them 4ft from each other if they are connected to each other using Ethernet?


----------



## carl6

If your router is ethernet only, no wifi, then it wouldn't matter. But the HS17 has built in wifi, so even if you have it connected by ethernet, if you place it next to a wifi router you have the potential for interference.


----------



## Bill Broderick

I don't remember seeing this anywhere. Can the WiFi on the HS-17 transmitter be disabled for installations that don't need wireless? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Bill Broderick said:


> I don't remember seeing this anywhere. Can the WiFi on the HS-17 transmitter be disabled for installations that don't need wireless?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If you do not setup wifi connection for the internet I believe it's off. If you don't have any wireless clients I believe those wireless antennas are turned off as well. But I'm not positive.


----------



## CraigerM

carl6 said:


> If your router is ethernet only, no wifi, then it wouldn't matter. But the HS17 has built in wifi, so even if you have it connected by ethernet, if you place it next to a wifi router you have the potential for interference.


Just curious what exactly would it interfere with? Since they both have 802.11ac I still don't get why you couldn't have them 4ft from each other?


----------



## inkahauts

Craiger, what you need to understand you don't want wireless devices of any kind right next to a router if you can help it. It can cause issues by sending signals on the same freq. second devices shouldn't be on top of the router when they are connected to that router wirelessly because signals don't do as well when they are right next to each other vs a bit further away. Signals need space to be received and sent back and if you try and do it right next to each other it can cause issues. I believe wave length has something to do with it as well. 

DIRECTV recommends four feet.


----------



## CraigerM

inkahauts said:


> Craiger, what you need to understand you don't want wireless devices of any kind right next to a router if you can help it. It can cause issues by sending signals on the same freq. second devices shouldn't be on top of the router when they are connected to that router wirelessly because signals don't do as well when they are right next to each other vs a bit further away. Signals need space to be received and sent back and if you try and do it right next to each other it can cause issues. I believe wave length has something to do with it as well.
> 
> DIRECTV recommends four feet.


Is the HS-17 different from the HR-44 and HR-54? I had my old Gateway next to the HR-44 before it got upgraded and had to be moved to a different room and tried the WIFI on the HR-44 and their wasn't any interference.


----------



## Bill Broderick

CraigerM said:


> Is the HS-17 different from the HR-44 and HR-54? I had my old Gateway next to the HR-44 before it got upgraded and had to be moved to a different room and tried the WIFI on the HR-44 and their wasn't any interference.


The regular Genies don't have WiFi transmitters. They just have wifi receivers. The HS-17 has both a transmitter and a receiver.

Transmitting from the HS-17 and your router (or some other WiFi transmitter) with both units close to one another can cause interference between the two signals. This issue doesn't exist with the HR-44 or HR54 because they don't transmit.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

Bill Broderick said:


> The regular Genies don't have WiFi transmitters. They just have wifi receivers. The HS-17 has both a transmitter and a receiver.
> 
> Transmitting from the HS-17 and your router (or some other WiFi transmitter) with both units close to one another can cause interference between the two signals. This issue doesn't exist with the HR-44 or HR54 because they don't transmit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Sorry keep forgetting it has the wireless video bridge built in. Is that what it would interfere with? What if you didn't use the WVB and the wireless clients?


----------



## Bill Broderick

If the wireless video bridge can be turned off, it should be able to be located right next to a WiFi router. That's why I asked if the WVB can be turned off. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

Bill Broderick said:


> If the wireless video bridge can be turned off, it should be able to be located right next to a WiFi router. That's why I asked if the WVB can be turned off.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Sorry forgot about your last post. Maybe the WVB is only turned on when it detects wireless clients?


----------



## carl6

I am looking at my HS17. There is a menu entry under Settings -> Whole Home -> Video Bridge about the WVB. I have no wireless clients, but my HS17 WVB status is "Active", and there is no option to change that. So it appears that it is on, without the option of turning it off.


----------



## inkahauts

carl6 said:


> I am looking at my HS17. There is a menu entry under Settings -> Whole Home -> Video Bridge about the WVB. I have no wireless clients, but my HS17 WVB status is "Active", and there is no option to change that. So it appears that it is on, without the option of turning it off.


I guess I should put a power meter on mine, and then use it without wireless clients and hardwired to internet and then with wireless for both and see if there's nay differences. We will see if I have time someday.


----------



## P Smith

Bill Broderick said:


> The regular Genies don't have WiFi transmitters. They just have wifi receivers.


very brave blind _wrong_ statement 
it's _two_ way radio modem type device


----------



## NR4P

It doesn't matter whether its a HS17 or something else that has Wifi built in.
It is never a good idea to put two units operating on the same frequencies right next to each other.

For 2.4Ghz there are typically only 11 channels used (yes sometimes 14). If your router is on channel 1 it really has signals out to other channels, albeit at a lower level out to channel 3 (depending on distance). So now an HS17 or something else comes along and operates on Ch. 3. It has signals falling onto channels 1 as well as channel 5.

So now you have your main router on ch. 1, the HS17 on Ch. 3, spraying some low level signal on ch. 1. If they are on top of each other or next to each other with zero spacing, that ch. 3 "spray" will cause some interference to the router's ability to hear other items (your cell phone) trying to connect to the router on ch. 1.

In other words since you can't guarantee adjacent or co-channel signals won't exist, just keep them as far apart as possible. 4 feet is a good staring place.
It's not unique to the HS17, its just good practice.


----------



## HoTat2

Can't someone just download a WiFi analyzer app on a Smartphone to see what the HS17 is putting out?

Heck, even without an app, I was over a friend's home sometime in Dec. of last year doing some work and noticed a nearby neighbor's DIRECTV WVB was showing in my phone's list of detected WiFi networks.

Couldn't connect to it of course ... 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

Yeah, just get spectrum analyzer, connect 2.4GHz/5GHz antenna (dipole is OK) and moving the antenna watch in real time the signals !


----------



## inkahauts

True that would tell us for the bridge but not the wifi for internet , it wouldn't send out an ssid.


----------



## P Smith

inkahauts said:


> True that would tell us for the bridge but not the wifi for internet , it wouldn't send out an ssid.


that's why you'll need spectrum analyzer


----------



## CraigerM

carl6 said:


> I am looking at my HS17. There is a menu entry under Settings -> Whole Home -> Video Bridge about the WVB. I have no wireless clients, but my HS17 WVB status is "Active", and there is no option to change that. So it appears that it is on, without the option of turning it off.


Carl, are you allowed to play around with your HS-17 to see how it acts and do you have an RVU TV? I know the HS-17 isn't designed to output to the TV but doesn't it also have a Deca adapter built in? I wonder if the HS-17's Ethernet port can be used as a dual use port in addition using it for the Internet can you also use it for an RVU connection?


----------



## carl6

I am using a C61K client for 4K, and a C41 client on another TV. No wireless connections, and no RVU. I tried RVU a while back (with a different Genie) and quit that real fast. I find physical clients to be far preferable to RVU, and I use wired, not wireless, whenever possible.

I've got a complete service monitor, and a separate spectrum analyzer, but both top out at about 1 GHz, so can't use them to check out wireless. Short of serious equipment of that nature, I'm reluctant to try and assess any signal generation (whether it is happening, or strength). I know some people with higher end Anritsu monitors (mostly job related resources), but I'm not going to drag them over here to test an HS17.


----------



## slice1900

There's no such thing as a 'receive only' wifi device. TCP/IP is ALWAYS two way communication, even if you are streaming a movie off the internet to your HR54, it will be sending wifi for a constant stream of TCP acks - broadcasting on the wifi multiple times per second.

As for 'but I put x next to my wireless router and it didn't cause me problems'. You could stack your wireless router on top of your HS17 and maybe never have problems. But why not keep them far enough apart to minimize the chance of problems?

It is your house, you can put stuff where you want, but devices radiate RF not just on the bands they are supposed to use, but on other bands too. Just because you have a router programmed to use for example channel 1 on 2.4 GHz wifi, that doesn't mean it won't broadcast a little on channel 6 and channel 11. The FCC has regulations on how much unintentional interference devices can cause, because total non-interference is impossible (or at least would make things a lot more expensive) The limits are low enough that you won't see problems under normal use, but locating two wireless emitters right next to each other is asking for trouble.


----------



## Beerstalker

Go see what LG/Apple just went thru with the new LG monitors. LG didn't put proper shielding in their new monitors that Apple was helping advertise to use along with Mac computers. People who had their WiFi routers, or computers next to the monitor were having issues with poor wireless connectivity because the monitors were giving off too much interference. LG pulled all the monitors off the shelves and added new/more shielding to them, and are allowing people who are having issues to send their monitors in to get the shielding added. This is for a device that doesn't even have WiFi built in, so the purpose of it isn't to put out radio signals at all.

I still don't get why so many in this thread keep thinking the HS17 needs to go in their entertainment center. Think of it more like the SWM-16. It can go anywhere else you want (although probably not outside). I personally will probably install it in my basement right where the power inserter and 8 way splitter are sitting on a shelf in the storage room. If I can't shut off the WiFI/WVB built into the HS17 then I will probably end up moving my Airport Extreme off a little ways so it is at least 4 feet apart (right now it is on the same shelf as everything else including my 16 port switch, NAS, and CCK).


----------



## CraigerM

Beerstalker said:


> I still don't get why so many in this thread keep thinking the HS17 needs to go in their entertainment center. Think of it more like the SWM-16. It can go anywhere else you want (although probably not outside). I personally will probably install it in my basement right where the power inserter and 8 way splitter are sitting on a shelf in the storage room. If I can't shut off the WiFI/WVB built into the HS17 then I will probably end up moving my Airport Extreme off a little ways so it is at least 4 feet apart (right now it is on the same shelf as everything else including my 16 port switch, NAS, and CCK).


If the way to look at the HS-17 is like the SWM-16 and it can go anywhere you want, then why is the preferred method to hook it up to the Internet using Ethernet? Wouldn't the preferred method still conflict with the interference 4ft rule? That is what I was basing having it next to WIFI router on. How far would they have to run an Ethernet cable to the WIFI gateway to avoid the interference? Would an installer have to follow the preferred method of Ethernet to hook the HS-17 up to the Internet? Or would he put the HS-17 wherever the customer wanted and use WIFI to have the HS-17 connected to the Internet?


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> If the way to look at the HS-17 is like the SWM-16 and it can go anywhere you want, then why is the preferred method to hook it up to the Internet using Ethernet? Wouldn't the preferred method still conflict with the interference 4ft rule? That is what I was basing having it next to WIFI router on. How far would they have to run an Ethernet cable to the WIFI gateway to avoid the interference? Would an installer have to follow the preferred method of Ethernet to hook the HS-17 up to the Internet? Or would he put the HS-17 wherever the customer wanted and use WIFI to have the HS-17 connected to the Internet?


They would have to run the ethernet cable 5 feet to the wifi router. How is that a problem?


----------



## RAD

CraigerM said:


> If the way to look at the HS-17 is like the SWM-16 and it can go anywhere you want, then why is the preferred method to hook it up to the Internet using Ethernet? Wouldn't the preferred method still conflict with the interference 4ft rule? That is what I was basing having it next to WIFI router on. How far would they have to run an Ethernet cable to the WIFI gateway to avoid the interference? Would an installer have to follow the preferred method of Ethernet to hook the HS-17 up to the Internet? Or would he put the HS-17 wherever the customer wanted and use WIFI to have the HS-17 connected to the Internet?


You know what, the 4FT rule is a DIRECTV installation guideline. I have my HS17 two feet away from my Netgear Nighthawk router and so far everything is working just duckie.


----------



## CraigerM

RAD said:


> You know what, the 4FT rule is a DIRECTV installation guideline. I have my HS17 two feet away from my Netgear Nighthawk router and so far everything is working just duckie.


That's a good way to look at it as it being just a guideline.


----------



## slice1900

Getting back to ATSC 3.0 for a moment, it was pointed out to me that ATSC has published standards documents for physical level signaling. I just skimmed it, but it looks like the information that's been reported is incomplete. Rather than specifying only a single modulation like ATSC 1.0, it is more like DVB-S* satellite standards in that a range of modulations / FEC ratios are supported, so data rates can be as low as 1 Mbps all the way up to nearly 60 Mbps.

I don't know where the 26 Mbps reported in the press came from, maybe that's based on the modulation most are assumed to use to gain a similar effective range as ATSC 1.0. But given the ease of using multiple transmitters to cover large areas, they could use more complex modulations with a shorter effective range but not be a problem if they site transmitters properly.

ATSC 3.0 also supports channel bonding, with a maximum of two (currently) RF channels at once. That seems unlikely to be used, especially given the high ceiling for data rates that are possible, but I guess they figured as long as they were updating the standard they might as well plan for all contingencies. Maybe it will be something that smaller / denser countries like South Korea might want to make use of.


----------



## James Long

CraigerM said:


> If the way to look at the HS-17 is like the SWM-16 and it can go anywhere you want, then why is the preferred method to hook it up to the Internet using Ethernet? Wouldn't the preferred method still conflict with the interference 4ft rule? That is what I was basing having it next to WIFI router on. How far would they have to run an Ethernet cable to the WIFI gateway to avoid the interference? Would an installer have to follow the preferred method of Ethernet to hook the HS-17 up to the Internet? Or would he put the HS-17 wherever the customer wanted and use WIFI to have the HS-17 connected to the Internet?


It is a simple rule. I believe you are making too much out of it.

If you think about it there are other restrictions to where the HS-17 can be located. So it cannot go anywhere you want. It can be placed anywhere, but if you don't follow the specifications don't expect it to work correctly. For example, you could place it outside if you wanted to ... but don't expect it to work for long. Follow that absurd example by reading the manual and seeing what environmental limits apply to the device. Don't place it in a place that is too hot or too cold. Don't place it on its side. And don't place it within four feet of a Wi-Fi router.

Five foot and longer Ethernet cables are available ... so it shouldn't be impossible to maintain the four foot separation. An Ethernet cable is preferred for Internet connectivity but Wi-Fi is available if one wants to put the HS-17 where there is not available Ethernet. Don't let options confuse you.


----------



## CraigerM

James Long said:


> It is a simple rule. I believe you are making too much out of it.
> 
> If you think about it there are other restrictions to where the HS-17 can be located. So it cannot go anywhere you want. It can be placed anywhere, but if you don't follow the specifications don't expect it to work correctly. For example, you could place it outside if you wanted to ... but don't expect it to work for long. Follow that absurd example by reading the manual and seeing what environmental limits apply to the device. Don't place it in a place that is too hot or too cold. Don't place it on its side. And don't place it within four feet of a Wi-Fi router.
> 
> Five foot and longer Ethernet cables are available ... so it shouldn't be impossible to maintain the four foot separation. An Ethernet cable is preferred for Internet connectivity but Wi-Fi is available if one wants to put the HS-17 where there is not available Ethernet. Don't let options confuse you.


I tend to overthink things.


----------



## compnurd

This whole wifi and 4 Ft placement thing is like eating sandpaper. When you get one. Install it within 4 ft and tell us how it goes. Like beer. Mine is going in the basement next to my splitter and near my switch for the basement


----------



## compnurd

James Long said:


> It is a simple rule. I believe you are making too much out of it.
> .


You have no idea


----------



## CraigerM

compnurd said:


> You have no idea


Sorry.


----------



## inkahauts

Mine is probably 20 inches away and I've been fine. If it was I'd move it a little bit further away.


----------



## NR4P

For those with Android phones, a good app to see all your 2.4 and 5ghz signals is WiFi Analyzer by farproc. You can overlapping signals and both Wifi bands. For example the 5ghz WiFi signal from the HS17 is across 15 channels when I view it.


----------



## P Smith

NR4P said:


> the 5ghz WiFi signal from the HS17 is across 15 channels when I view it.


Unbelievable !
Is it because 15 SWiM tuners ?


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Unbelievable !
> Is it because 15 SWiM tuners ?


What do you mean?

That's just a standard 80 MHz wide WiFi channel option for 802.11ac isnt it?

This WVB right now is centered on the 5 GHz "mid-band" (U-NII-2A) channel range between 52-64.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

I'm not aware of such wide channel (it was 20 and 40 MHz before 11ac) ... perhaps it's time to try my new one with 11ac support ...


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> I'm not aware of such wide channel (it was 20 and 40 MHz before 11ac) ... perhaps it's time to try my new one with 11ac support ...


I think they are actually a max of 40 MHz channels, but apparently bonded with an alternate 40 MHz secondary channel added to the primary as with the 2.4 GHz band 20 + 20 MHz option.

Right now, both my 802.11ac router and AP are radiating 80 MHz wide signals on the 5.8 GHz "Hi-band" portion (UN-II-3) spanning channels 149-161.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

In fact 802.11ac will allow up to 160 MHz wide channels as some of the newest routers do.

Particularly those that are capable of Multi-user MIMO.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## RAD

Looking at WiFi Explore for my HS17's WVB it's showing 80Mhz channel width and data rate of 1733.3Mbps.


----------



## inazsully

Sorry but all this 4ft rule may be very important, especially since it's been pretty much a non stop topic for quite a while but what do some of you owners think about the product as a whole? Is is faster than the HR45/54? Is anything about it more intuitive? How does it integrate with your other equipment? Is there any difference in PQ? Would you recommend upgrading from the HR54/C61K for 4K watching and recording? Does it run cooler? Who makes it?


----------



## P Smith

inazsully said:


> Who makes it?


re-read a beginning of the thread ... post #11


----------



## compnurd

inazsully said:


> Sorry but all this 4ft rule may be very important, especially since it's been pretty much a non stop topic for quite a while but what do some of you owners think about the product as a whole? Is is faster than the HR45/54? Is anything about it more intuitive? How does it integrate with your other equipment? Is there any difference in PQ? Would you recommend upgrading from the HR54/C61K for 4K watching and recording? Does it run cooler? Who makes it?


I would suggest re reading this thread. Your answers lie there


----------



## MysteryMan

inazsully said:


> Sorry but all this 4ft rule may be very important, especially since it's been pretty much a non stop topic for quite a while but what do some of you owners think about the product as a whole? Is is faster than the HR45/54? Is anything about it more intuitive? How does it integrate with your other equipment? Is there any difference in PQ? Would you recommend upgrading from the HR54/C61K for 4K watching and recording? Does it run cooler? Who makes it?


For future reference the last three digits indicate receiver manufacturer......100-Technicolor (Thomson/Audiovox/RCA)......200-Samsung......300-Philips......400-Hughes......500-Humax......600-LG......700-Pace......800-NEC. The HS17-100 is manufactured by Technicolor. The HS17-500 is manufactured by Humax.


----------



## patmurphey

What's the big deal about 4 feet? It's the instruction to an installer and he's going to comply. DTV believes that it is required to avoid conflicts. After the installer goes, or if you install yourself, you can do any silly thing you want.


----------



## P Smith

patmurphey said:


> What's the big deal about 4 feet? It's the instruction to an installer and he's going to comply. DTV believes that it is required to avoid conflicts. After the installer goes, or if you install yourself, you can do any silly thing you want.


it's a theme what have no bearing to spend time for it, not telling about polluting the thread


----------



## HoTat2

Interesting YT video of a first install experience with the HS17 by DIRECTV tech. "Ace Gonzalez."

Though he makes some errors about the HS17's capabilities and complains about DIRECTV's habit of simply "throwing" out new equipment on the field techs. without adequate if any notification and training. Still an interesting video ...






Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

yeah, he is definitely should read the thread...


----------



## jimmie57

In case anyone else is interested.

Genie AirTM integrates Wireless Video Bridge (Gen 2) and transcoding (Mobile DVR) capabilities.

Genie AirTM will use eleven tuners (plus one Network Tuner),
is capable of Transponder Bonding and can support up-to Seven RVU clients simultaneously
(two of which can be 4K streams).

Genie AirTM has built-in SWiM power and storage of 2TB.

Genie AirTM is compatible with all Genie clients and Wireless Video Bridge.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

That thing looks huge. So much for putting that into a nice rack system. But I guess it can go "anywhere".


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

"Ace" is sharp as a tack with a head twice as wide. Just let me get my hands on one so I can install it my way. My one brain cell has already formulated the "perfect" installation that will hide some equipment in the closet, clean up the "office", make the wife happy, and only need minor additional RG6/ethernet drops that will also help accommodate the future camera system.


----------



## P Smith

Wolfmanjohn said:


> "Ace" is sharp as a tack with a head twice as wide.


nay, it's just the new box's simplicity


----------



## compnurd

jimmie57 said:


> In case anyone else is interested.
> 
> Genie AirTM integrates Wireless Video Bridge (Gen 2) and transcoding (Mobile DVR) capabilities.
> 
> Genie AirTM will use eleven tuners (plus one Network Tuner),
> is capable of Transponder Bonding and can support up-to Seven RVU clients simultaneously
> (two of which can be 4K streams).
> 
> Genie AirTM has built-in SWiM power and storage of 2TB.
> 
> Genie AirTM is compatible with all Genie clients and Wireless Video Bridge.


Pretty sure we knew all of this already


----------



## slice1900

jimmie57 said:


> If I remember correctly, the other video of first look ? said that it was capable of feeding 2 4k tvs. He said it can do 4.
> ??


Based on the way it appears to reserve bonded transponder pairs for 4K, given that it has 1 SWM channel used for guide, 7 for HD, and 4 for 4K (i.e. two 4K 'tuners') with 4 unused, I wouldn't be surprised if a firmware update comes eventually so it reserves 8 for 4K and therefore supports four 4K 'tuners'. Then it would live up to the 'SWM-15' label on the back.

Maybe he was told that was coming? Regardless, I think it will. Grabbing 11 SWM channels seems like such an odd number, especially given that they don't support it with any other equipment. Unless it the HS17 would be CPU limited (i.e. software demodulation) that is. I wonder if there is open source code for DVB-S2 demodulation somewhere, to get an idea of exactly how much work it is.


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> software demodulation


that's something new ! 
any STB still using HW demod chips
isn't HS17 totally different architecture ?


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> Based on the way it appears to reserve bonded transponder pairs for 4K, given that it has 1 SWM channel used for guide, 7 for HD, and 4 for 4K (i.e. two 4K 'tuners') with 4 unused, I wouldn't be surprised if a firmware update comes eventually so it reserves 8 for 4K and therefore supports four 4K 'tuners'. Then it would live up to the 'SWM-15' label on the back.
> 
> Maybe he was told that was coming? Regardless, I think it will. Grabbing 11 SWM channels seems like such an odd number, especially given that they don't support it with any other equipment. Unless it the HS17 would be CPU limited (i.e. software demodulation) that is. I wonder if there is open source code for DVB-S2 demodulation somewhere, to get an idea of exactly how much work it is.


And also the way the future 4K bonded channel operation apparently works is confusing and inefficient where 3 SWM tuners are required somehow.

Either with 1 or 2 SWM tuners of the first seven receiving control data for tp. pairs 8/9 and 10/11 where the actual mutiplexed 4K A/V data is sent.

Or possibly and more likely, (but no less inefficient), when receiving 4K over bonded tps., 1 or 2 of the first seven SWM tuners are disabled from being used at all when the reception comes over bonded tuner pairs 8/9 and/or 10/11.

Either way though, you will always be capable of receiving up 7 simultaneous programs. 7 HD/SD or 5 HD/SD and 2 4K. That is at least until DIRECTV reveals what they intend to do with tuners 12-15 via a FW update which may be for 2 additional 4K programs over bonded tps. as you feel, for a total max. of 7 HD/SD programs or 5 HD/SD and 4 4K programs.

Whew ... yes, very confusing indeed ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

I tried a search in this thread but couldn't find it but what type of multi-switch would they use with the HS-17, since it only has seven active tuners but it says SWM 15? If a customer had a SWM 16 would they keep that or would they replace it with a different multi-switch depending on how many clients they had?


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> I tried a search in this thread but couldn't find it but what type of multi-switch would they use with the HS-17, since it only has seven active tuners but it says SWM 15? If a customer had a SWM 16 would they keep that or would they replace it with a different multi-switch depending on how many clients they had?


This server is supposed to be used alongside a reverse ban LNB. Since no other receivers are supported there is no need for an external switch.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> that's something new !
> any STB still using HW demod chips
> isn't HS17 totally different architecture ?


I have no way of knowing, so I am just speculating here trying to understand why 1) Directv seems to require a separate set of tuners / SWM channels for bonded transponders and 2) Why the HS-17 is marked 'SWM-15' but only uses 11 tuners.

What we know for sure is that DVB-S2 does not support bonded transponders AT ALL, and the HR54 and HS17 are using DVB-S2 chips. So how is Directv (or rather will they, since it isn't being used yet) handling bonded transponders? They must either have access to the demodulated output of the "dedicated" SWM channels used for 4K, or the raw modulated ADC output from those channels. If the former, accessing the 4K program's video and audio stream is pretty simple. If the latter, the receiver would have to run a demodulator in software on the pair of transponders before accessing the streams.

I'm not sure how efficient a general purpose CPU would be at demodulating DVB-S2, since that is normally done via a fixed function DSP on the satellite tuner chip. So if it is demodulating in software, that's a possible explanation for why the HS17 has 16 internal tuners and is marked 'SWM-15' but is using only 11 of them. Maybe its CPU simply isn't fast enough to handle software demodulation on more than two bonded pairs? Or maybe it can, but barely, so they want to wait until all testing is complete (i.e. if they have debugging code in the software it is running now that will be removed later this year)

Either way, I expect when Directv finalized their bonded transponder strategy they talked to the chipmakers like Broadcom and Maxlinear, seeking on-chip support for their non-standard DVB-S2 based transponder bonding. The chipmakers already support some minor Directv specific extensions to DVB-S2 (not to mention the wholly non-standard DSS) so I expect whenever they release their next generation tuner chips some will support Directv's software bonding.

Having that support on chip would remove the restriction of reserving SWM channels for bonded transponder pairs, so a future "HS-27" with a SWM-15 input could advertise 7 live/recordable tuners with any combination of SD/HD and 4K desired.


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I tried a search in this thread but couldn't find it but what type of multi-switch would they use with the HS-17, since it only has seven active tuners but it says SWM 15? If a customer had a SWM 16 would they keep that or would they replace it with a different multi-switch depending on how many clients they had?


It works with a SWM8/SWM16, but it would not support 4K at all when connected that way. If you needed a switch (i.e. an MDU or in the future when they may allow more than one) you'd use the DSWM30, which supports two SWM outputs with 15 tuners each. It will be available around June.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> It works with a SWM8/SWM16, but it would not support 4K at all when connected that way. If you needed a switch (i.e. an MDU or in the future when they may allow more than one) you'd use the DSWM30, which supports two SWM outputs with 15 tuners each. It will be available around June.


It will work with 4k just fine on a SWiM8... until they move 4k to RB.


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> It works with a SWM8/SWM16, but it would not support 4K at all when connected that way. If you needed a switch (i.e. an MDU or in the future when they may allow more than one) you'd use the DSWM30, which supports two SWM outputs with 15 tuners each. It will be available around June.





Bigg said:


> It will work with 4k just fine on a SWiM8... until they move 4k to RB.


Bigg is correct. Today the HS17 (and HR54) receive and work with 4K just fine running on an SWM8 LNB or on an SWM8 or SWM16 multiswitch. They know what they are connected to and configure accordingly.

Once DirecTV starts to use bonded transponders, then you will have to use a reverse band LNB (RBLNB) for 4K

At this point in time, there is no stated purpose (present or future) for the additional 4 tuners that the HS17 has. If there is something on DirecTVs drawing board, they have not shared it. Personally, I suspect they decided to build a box that could do "x", and the most cost effective way to do that was to use chips that gave x+4 capability and left the +4 idle intentionally.


----------



## slice1900

According to someone on Solid Signal's blog, a 4K client served by an HS17 will downscale 4K to 1080p when connected to an HDTV, but won't when connected to an HR54.

Can someone who has both confirm that? While I'd love to see this, I wonder if that was a deliberate change rather than a bug or something that is planned to be changed prior to the HS17's national rollout.


----------



## P Smith

I would say it's good addition to client's FW; many people who are changing TV would be glad to the feature, not counting RV goers.


----------



## jimmie57

slice1900 said:


> According to someone on Solid Signal's blog, a 4K client served by an HS17 will downscale 4K to 1080p when connected to an HDTV, but won't when connected to an HR54.
> 
> Can someone who has both confirm that? While I'd love to see this, I wonder if that was a deliberate change rather than a bug or something that is planned to be changed prior to the HS17's national rollout.


I would think that was a must. Think of how many calls they would get if it sent 4k to the 1080p TV and the TV did not show anything.


----------



## HoTat2

jimmie57 said:


> I would think that was a must. Think of how many calls they would get if it sent 4k to the 1080p TV and the TV did not show anything.


But unless there has been a change when used with the HS17 for some reason.

The C61K should work the same as with the HR54/44/34 as server, where it won't even accept an HDMI connection to a 1080p HDTV.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## NR4P

HoTat2 said:


> But unless there has been a change when used with the HS17 for some reason.
> 
> The C61K should work the same as with the HR54/44/34 as server, where it won't even accept an HDMI connection to a 1080p HDTV.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I have a C61k connected to a HR44 and HDTV. It shows 4K not available on boot up but shows HDTV just fine on regular HD channels.


----------



## HoTat2

NR4P said:


> I have a C61k connected to a HR44 and HDTV. It shows 4K not available on boot up but shows HDTV just fine on regular HD channels.


Oh .... ok my bad then ...

I guess I assumed DIRECTV's policy of not allowing the installation of a C61K unless a 4K TV was available, with it only working on 4K TVs. 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## machavez00

What is the latest as to when the HS17 will be out on the trucks and the standard for install. My HR34 Genie is off contract and I have a "free upgrade" on my account. I missed the HR44 by a week.


----------



## Phil T

I have a C61K on a non 4K 2008 Sony KDL52 XBR4 with a HS17.
This is what I see when I choose a 4K channel:


----------



## HoTat2

Phil T said:


> I have a C61K on a non 4K 2008 Sony KDL52 XBR4 with a HS17.
> This is what I see when I choose a 4K channel:
> View attachment 28721


Any way that you've found to make that nag message permanently go away?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Phil T

No, other then hit OK when it appears.


----------



## HoTat2

Phil T said:


> No, other then hit OK when it appears.


About what is the recurrence time you estimate the nag message reappears after hitting "OK?"

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## Phil T

It only appears when you change to a 4K channel. It does not reappear as long as you stay on the channel.


----------



## slice1900

machavez00 said:


> What is the latest as to when the HS17 will be out on the trucks and the standard for install. My HR34 Genie is off contract and I have a "free upgrade" on my account. I missed the HR44 by a week.


Supposed to be in national release in August, but no one can know when it will be "on the trucks and the standard for install" in your area, because 'it depends'. Some areas got the HR44 right away, others had only HR34s for months after its release. You probably missed the HR44 by a lot more than a week, if your install was a week before the official announcement of it.

Unless they consider the 'Genie 2' a different animal from the original Genie HR34/44/54 the only way you could be assured of getting one is to buy (lease) one from a dealer like Solid Signal, or wait until you know they are on the trucks in your area and refuse install / reschedule if the installer doesn't have one for you.


----------



## ROK5TAR

slice1900 said:


> Supposed to be in national release in August, but no one can know when it will be "on the trucks and the standard for install" in your area, because 'it depends'. Some areas got the HR44 right away, others had only HR34s for months after its release. You probably missed the HR44 by a lot more than a week, if your install was a week before the official announcement of it.
> 
> Unless they consider the 'Genie 2' a different animal from the original Genie HR34/44/54 the only way you could be assured of getting one is to buy (lease) one from a dealer like Solid Signal, or wait until you know they are on the trucks in your area and refuse install / reschedule if the installer doesn't have one for you.


It's already on trucks in Los Angeles area and standard if it's more than 4 tvs it looks like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

Phil T said:


> I have a C61K on a non 4K 2008 Sony KDL52 XBR4 with a HS17.
> This is what I see when I choose a 4K channel:
> View attachment 28721


Why did you get a c61k on a non 4k tv?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Phil T

ROK5TAR said:


> Why did you get a c61k on a non 4k tv?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wanted a RBLNB and a C61K for my 4K Sony XBR-65X750D. The RVU built in the TV was OK but I did not like the fact the TV remote was not RF. I placed an order through DirecTV. The installer who came suggested replacing my HR24 with a C61K. He told me I would be able to watch the 4K channels in 1080p. He was able to get it added to the work order for no additional cost, so I said go for it. I am good to go if I get another 4K set.


----------



## Laxguy

That's cool, Phil, glad it worked out so nicely. (I rather dislike IR, too)


----------



## HoTat2

More from Ace Gonzales on the HS17 hookup and client activation process ...






Interesting ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

yeah, that applet is good to see how it works
but the mess under table... ugly !!!


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

ROK5TAR said:


> It's already on trucks in Los Angeles area and standard if it's more than 4 tvs it looks like.


A retention CSR told me yesterday the HS17 is on a pilot program from 5 to 22 April, and available in San Diego, LA and Sacramento markets, but alas and alack, not for us schmucks in Chico zip 95973. He was unable to tell me when it would be available to the rest of us or put me on a waiting list, but did suggest I call back when the pilot program ends to see if the availability area had widened. Sounded like a fairly knowledgeable individual, but we shall see.


----------



## compnurd

It will be out the end of June. Full roll out looks like august


----------



## machavez00

slice1900 said:


> Supposed to be in national release in August, but no one can know when it will be "on the trucks and the standard for install" in your area, because 'it depends'. Some areas got the HR44 right away, others had only HR34s for months after its release. You probably missed the HR44 by a lot more than a week, if your install was a week before the official announcement of it.
> 
> Unless they consider the 'Genie 2' a different animal from the original Genie HR34/44/54 the only way you could be assured of getting one is to buy (lease) one from a dealer like Solid Signal, or wait until you know they are on the trucks in your area and refuse install / reschedule if the installer doesn't have one for you.





ROK5TAR said:


> It's already on trucks in Los Angeles area and standard if it's more than 4 tvs it looks like.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The reason why I say i missed the HR44 by a week is because my brother fours house down the street called a week after I did and an HR44 was installed. They have five TVs there, the HR44 with three clients, and an HR24.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Looks like the C61K is a little larger than the regular clients?


----------



## peds48

TheRatPatrol said:


> Looks like the C61K is a little larger than the regular clients?


Yes. Slightly

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## carl6

TheRatPatrol said:


> Looks like the C61K is a little larger than the regular clients?


I've got a C41 and a C61K. The C61K is about twice the size of the C41 (both in length and width, height is about the same).
Just measured, 3" wider, 2" deeper.


----------



## slice1900

Likely they'll be able to miniaturize it better in the next version and make it the same size as the HD client. They'd probably make things simpler for themselves if they made a single 'C71K' that replaced both the C61 & C61K so they don't need to distinguish between 4K and HD versions.


----------



## inkahauts

With the need for hvec deciding in it I wonder if the hardware is there yet to make it smaller at the same price point. And same for if they are ready to consider making only 4k clients. Not sure that's cost effective today.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> With the need for hvec deciding in it I wonder if the hardware is there yet to make it smaller at the same price point. And same for if they are ready to consider making only 4k clients. Not sure that's cost effective today.


Of course the hardware is. The iPhone 6 is 2 1/2 years old and has real time h.265 decoding _and encoding_.

The only thing preventing it would be patent licensing costs, but depending on what those are the savings not having different client versions might be able to make up for it. Typically end user decoder patent licenses from MPEG have a dollar limit, so once you ship a certain number of units additional units are free. The catch would be the non-MPEG pools for h.265, which may operate differently.


----------



## CraigerM

What about making the client box the size of a USB stick and that would do both HD and 4k?


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> What about making the client box the size of a USB stick and that would do both HD and 4k?


Theoretically possible but it would 1) cost a lot more due to the higher level of integration and 2) be a giant pain connecting a stiff RG6 into the back of a fiddly little device that plugs into your HDMI port. You'd also lose the ability to connect other stuff like digital audio, the composite/component dongle, and the (useless AFAIK) USB port.

I could see maybe making it DECA sized or a bit bigger with an HDMI pigtail on one end and F81 port on the other, with the other ports on the side, but again it would cost more shrinking it down.

If it were up to me, I'd love to see it capable of being powered through the coax connection. That's about as likely as the stick sized client, i.e. never gonna happen


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> Theoretically possible but it would 1) cost a lot more due to the higher level of integration and 2) be a giant pain connecting a stiff RG6 into the back of a fiddly little device that plugs into your HDMI port. You'd also lose the ability to connect other stuff like digital audio, the composite/component dongle, and the (useless AFAIK) USB port.
> 
> I could see maybe making it DECA sized or a bit bigger with an HDMI pigtail on one end and F81 port on the other, with the other ports on the side, but again it would cost more shrinking it down.
> 
> If it were up to me, I'd love to see it capable of being powered through the coax connection. That's about as likely as the stick sized client, i.e. never gonna happen


So I guess the smallest it could get doing both HD and 4k and having all the right connections would be the size of the C41?


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Of course the hardware is. The iPhone 6 is 2 1/2 years old and has real time h.265 decoding _and encoding_.
> 
> The only thing preventing it would be patent licensing costs, but depending on what those are the savings not having different client versions might be able to make up for it. Typically end user decoder patent licenses from MPEG have a dollar limit, so once you ship a certain number of units additional units are free. The catch would be the non-MPEG pools for h.265, which may operate differently.


As I said, at what cost to make it that small. I imagine it's a heck of a lot more money to make it much smaller when it came out.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> As I said, at what cost to make it that small. I imagine it's a heck of a lot more money to make it much smaller when it came out.


Yes, the reason the C61K is larger is probably because it has more components (less integration when HEVC decoding and 4K output were new) and the components used more power (more room needed to disperse heat)

Neither should be a factor if they started design of a new model today. Though if they started today they might use HDMI 2.1 and be able to output 4Kp120, and since that's new it may have the same problems. So maybe we need to wait for the C81K for the catchall box


----------



## CraigerM

The C61k is still only 8" x 7" x 1.25" according to Solid Signal. That's still not a bad size is it?


----------



## compnurd

CraigerM said:


> The C61k is still only 8" x 7" x 1.25" according to Solid Signal. That's still not a bad size is it?


Depends on who you ask. For me no. For others maybe


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> if they made a single 'C71K' that replaced both the C61 & C61K so they don't need to distinguish between 4K and HD versions.


Don't forget that they still need a box that supports composite and component video outputs.

Not sure if supporting 4K precludes the box from having those outputs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

CraigerM said:


> That's still not a bad size is it?


That goes to perception, what may be good to some may not be good to others.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> Don't forget that they still need a box that supports composite and component video outputs.
> 
> Not sure if supporting 4K precludes the box from having those outputs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nothing stops them from making a 4K box that includes those outputs. You just won't get 4K out of component, just like you can't get HD out of composite.

Maybe you won't be able to tune a 4K channel and have it downscaled to HD and output as component, but who is going to want to do that anyway? So long as it can downscale 4K channels to HD I'll be happy.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> Neither should be a factor if they started design of a new model today. Though if they started today they might use HDMI 2.1 and be able to output 4Kp120, and since that's new it may have the same problems. So maybe we need to wait for the C81K for the catchall box


Yeah, but then we're looking at 8k, and then 8k 120fps, so a couple of generations after that we might get there.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> Yeah, but then we're looking at 8k, and then 8k 120fps, so a couple of generations after that we might get there.


We will see 8K TVs, but no one will broadcast 8K in the US.


----------



## thefunks67

I have an HS17 install scheduled for Monday. Four clients, all 1080, no 4k.


----------



## inkahauts

Oh excellent. I am very interested to hear how it goes. What are you replacing?


----------



## 1953

HR44


----------



## P Smith

1953 said:


> HR44


do you plan using 4k clients? if so, did you mention while ordered the hs17?


----------



## compnurd

I think he said no 4k. I am curious if he gets all C61 minis though


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> We will see 8K TVs, but no one will broadcast 8K in the US.


I was half-joking, but half serious. It remains to be seen if 4k linear is widely available. Whether 8k is a thing in any form other than some streaming demos remains to be seen.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> I think he said no 4k. I am curious if he gets all C61 minis though


I'll bet HS17s are only installed with C61s because they are the only ones capable of MoCA 2.0. Is the C61W shipping yet? It is the same story there, it supports the faster AC wireless that the HS17 is capable of, while the C41W does not.


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> I'll bet HS17s are only installed with C61s because they are the only ones capable of MoCA 2.0. Is the C61W shipping yet? It is the same story there, it supports the faster AC wireless that the HS17 is capable of, while the C41W does not.


That was my thought also so we shall see. There is firmware out there now for the c61w so it looks like it may be out there


----------



## Phil T

slice1900 said:


> I'll bet HS17s are only installed with C61s because they are the only ones capable of MoCA 2.0. Is the C61W shipping yet? It is the same story there, it supports the faster AC wireless that the HS17 is capable of, while the C41W does not.


I am running a C41W with a HS17. Works fine.


----------



## ROK5TAR

slice1900 said:


> I'll bet HS17s are only installed with C61s because they are the only ones capable of MoCA 2.0. Is the C61W shipping yet? It is the same story there, it supports the faster AC wireless that the HS17 is capable of, while the C41W does not.


Whatever is on truck gets installed with hs17. C41,51,61

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

ROK5TAR said:


> Whatever is on truck gets installed with hs17. C41,51,61
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That seems stupid to be honest because if I remember earlier there was a limit on Moca 1.1 devices attached to the unit. Are they still even producing the 41's? They would be wise to once this goes full consumer to pair Moca 2 devices with it


----------



## inkahauts

compnurd said:


> That seems stupid to be honest because if I remember earlier there was a limit on Moca 1.1 devices attached to the unit. Are they still even producing the 41's? They would be wise to once this goes full consumer to pair Moca 2 devices with it


Why would it be dumb? There's no difference until You get past the sixth client. So unless someone needs more than five tvs there is no point on throwing away all the current clients. And I'm sure anyone upgrading from a current genie that has clients wouldn't get them swapped out either. What would be the point?

And if someone needs more than five only the last couple need to be 61s.

Once they are out of inventory well then they probably will only install 61s. I wouldn't be surprised if the only real 41 left is the wireless. They've been installing 51s for a long time now.


----------



## compnurd

inkahauts said:


> Why would it be dumb? There's no difference until You get past the sixth client. So unless someone needs more than five tvs there is no point on throwing away all the current clients. And I'm sure anyone upgrading from a current genie that has clients wouldn't get them swapped out either. What would be the point?
> 
> And if someone needs more than five only the last couple need to be 61s.
> 
> Once they are out of inventory well then they probably will only install 61s. I wouldn't be surprised if the only real 41 left is the wireless. They've been installing 51s for a long time now.


I would assume at some point here they will want to utilize Moca 2.0 for something here. So why start installing this with old generation hardware


----------



## Delroy E Walleye

Ok, this may be a small "stickler" for some, but if I'm understanding Ace's video correctly, customer is charged a fee for the server as well as the clients.

(So much for the "headless" system only charging per TV!)


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> I would assume at some point here they will want to utilize Moca 2.0 for something here. So why start installing this with old generation hardware


What could they use it for? There's no value in having more bandwidth between Directv devices than what is needed for streaming the video. Unless AT&T has some ideas about using excess capacity on that coax network as a makeshift home network for Uverse internet and fixed wireless broadband customers...

I suppose in the end it really doesn't make much difference. The C61/C61K will run at MoCA 2.0 speeds, and older stuff will run at 1.1 speeds. Seven MoCA 1.1 clients would be no problem at all since they'd all be HD, unless you have defective cabling and things aren't working optimally.

I guess they have too many C41/C51 floating around that they still need to get a few years use out of before they become unrecoverable. The C31s are starting to hit the five year mark and may not always get recovered.


----------



## inkahauts

compnurd said:


> I would assume at some point here they will want to utilize Moca 2.0 for something here. So why start installing this with old generation hardware


Nah. I believe the only real concern for being moca2 is 4k streams. And all those clients are moca2 so you aren't hurting anything using those clients.


----------



## slice1900

Delroy E Walleye said:


> Ok, this may be a small "stickler" for some, but if I'm understanding Ace's video correctly, customer is charged a fee for the server as well as the clients.
> 
> (So much for the "headless" system only charging per TV!)


Did he say how much the fee is and how it shows up on the bill? Pretty sure if you asked him it'd end up being the 'advanced receiver fee' which you were paying before without it being allocated to any specific device. i.e. the general catch all for having HD, DVR and whole home that used to be separate line items. Now there really is an "advanced receiver" to relate that fee to!


----------



## compnurd

I thought we saw it was confirmed the server is "free" and each client is the charge Which does still mean you are paying for another box


----------



## 1953

Dealing with DirecTV never changes. Last week as I first posted I was going to receive a RS17. Today I was told to reconfirmed. During the process the phone disconnected. I called back went through everything for the RS17 then came the 3rd party confirmation. Our order was to be confirmed for a HR54. I canceled then went back to the order process. In the middle of the process I was put on hold. Bask with the CSR Iwas told the RS17 is not available and to call back when it is available. When will it be available I ask. We do not know says the CSR. I plan to call back after I chill. Xf/$?!


----------



## 1953

Update, just made two more calls. The first to somewhere in the world. Phone call disconnected. Second call thankfully answered by a North American. Long story short, the HS17 will be available in the Dallas market in August. Outstanding service by this calls CSR. Will wait patiently.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> I thought we saw it was confirmed the server is "free" and each client is the charge Which does still mean you are paying for another box


How does it mean you are paying for another box?

Old Genie 1 way with three TVs:
TV 1: HR54 $7
TV 2: client $7
TV 3: client $7
Total: $21 in equipment fees, plus "advanced receiver fee" of $15

New Genie 2 way with three TVs
TV 1: client $7
TV 2: client $7
TV 3: client $7
Total: $21 in equipment fees, plus "advanced receiver fee" of $15

For those who are grandfathered in under old pricing plans, who knows how it will all shake out, but if you look at it in terms of people signing up today w/o any sort of special promotion, who will get either an HR44/HR54 or a HS17, depending on where they are located, the pricing is identical. $36 in fees either way.


----------



## thefunks67

Dropping Comcast. I'll update you guys later today.


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> How does it mean you are paying for another box?
> 
> Old Genie 1 way with three TVs:
> TV 1: HR54 $7
> TV 2: client $7
> TV 3: client $7
> Total: $21 in equipment fees, plus "advanced receiver fee" of $15
> 
> New Genie 2 way with three TVs
> TV 1: client $7
> TV 2: client $7
> TV 3: client $7
> Total: $21 in equipment fees, plus "advanced receiver fee" of $15
> 
> For those who are grandfathered in under old pricing plans, who knows how it will all shake out, but if you look at it in terms of people signing up today w/o any sort of special promotion, who will get either an HR44/HR54 or a HS17, depending on where they are located, the pricing is identical. $36 in fees either way.


I have 6 boxes now that output to a TV. I pay 35 a month for them. First box is free.

Switching I get the hs-17 for free. But I still need 6 video outputting devices so now I pay 42


----------



## longrider

compnurd said:


> I have 6 boxes now that output to a TV. I pay 35 a month for them. First box is free.
> 
> Switching I get the hs-17 for free. But I still need 6 video outputting devices so now I pay 42


While nobody outside DirecTV knows for sure, if they do maintain the grandfathered plans then the first client would be free. If they cancel the old plan for HS17 customers then you would pay for all 6 clients but the account fee would be the $15 Advance receiver rather than the $23 DVR+HD+Whole home fee which would actually save you a dollar.


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

longrider said:


> While nobody outside DirecTV knows for sure, if they do maintain the grandfathered plans then the first client would be free. If they cancel the old plan for HS17 customers then you would pay for all 6 clients but the account fee would be the $15 Advance receiver rather than the $23 DVR+HD+Whole home fee which would actually save you a dollar.


Unless one is on a grandfathered plan and also doesn't pay advanced DVR because they bought a lifetime membership when Directivo first showed up on the market. Yeah, even after the DTV/Tivo split, DTV continued to honor that commitment.


----------



## jimmie57

longrider said:


> While nobody outside DirecTV knows for sure, if they do maintain the grandfathered plans then the first client would be free. If they cancel the old plan for HS17 customers then you would pay for all 6 clients but the account fee would be the $15 Advance receiver rather than the $23 DVR+HD+Whole home fee which would actually save you a dollar.


The 2 CSRs I just talked to are clueless.
The first one said that they had to install an HR54 and then I could get the Genie 2 added to my account. LOL
I told her to let me talk to someone else. Was on hold about 7 minutes for the next person.
She said the installs were account specific and my account was not checked for it so she could not give me any information about it.
OK, good bye.


----------



## dod1450

slice1900 said:


> Neither should be a factor if they started design of a new model today. Though if they started today they might use HDMI 2.1 and be able to output 4Kp120, and since that's new it may have the same problems. So maybe we need to wait for the C81K for the catchall box


 I think Directv is broadcasting 4Kp60?


----------



## compnurd

dod1450 said:


> I think Directv is broadcasting 4Kp60?


And 4Kp24


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

jimmie57 said:


> The 2 CSRs I just talked to are clueless.
> The first one said that they had to install an HR54 and then I could get the Genie 2 added to my account. LOL
> I told her to let me talk to someone else. Was on hold about 7 minutes for the next person.
> She said the installs were account specific and my account was not checked for it so she could not give me any information about it.
> OK, good bye.


My wife worked at a large alarm company as, among other things, a CSR. She taught me that if I wanted the A-team when calling a service provider to speak the magic word, "re-ten-tion" to the automated menu system, regardless of the reason for the contact. Seems to work well so far, IMHO.


----------



## Delroy E Walleye

I guess we'll just have to wait and see when more folks start getting and using this system, exactly how the billing will be affected. I'm pretty darn sure that Ace's video showed four receivers on the account and he stated that the server was counted as one of them.

At any rate, I can't imagine them letting anyone "grandfather" their account in any way, especially since you can't have any other "legacy" equipment on the same account. 

I would guess they'd most likely start a whole new account for the HS17, and it would be set up with the latest agreement requirements.


----------



## slice1900

dod1450 said:


> I think Directv is broadcasting 4Kp60?


Today 4Kp60 is the limit, but 4Kp120 is on the UHD roadmap so if they intend to support that they will want equipment capable of displaying it so when such a channel arrives they won't have to introduce a special model of client to handle it (especially if it is a popular channel like ESPN)

No TVs sold today can handle 4Kp120 input, so it isn't something needed immediately, but if they were designing a next generation 4K client today it is something I'd expect them to take into account. LG is rumored to support 4Kp120 on next year's OLEDs, no idea about the rest (it is a bit problematic on LCD/LED TVs because of limitations on how they work)


----------



## James Long

4Kp120 sounds like a bandwidth hog.


----------



## machavez00

Bigg said:


> I was half-joking, but half serious. It remains to be seen if 4k linear is widely available. Whether 8k is a thing in any form other than some streaming demos remains to be seen.


it's coming. 
NHK 8K Super Hi-Vision Makes Stateside Debut at Yankees-Mariners Series


----------



## west99999

jimmie57 said:


> The 2 CSRs I just talked to are clueless.
> The first one said that they had to install an HR54 and then I could get the Genie 2 added to my account. LOL
> I told her to let me talk to someone else. Was on hold about 7 minutes for the next person.
> She said the installs were account specific and my account was not checked for it so she could not give me any information about it.
> OK, good bye.


Why is it that someone always has to be the one to call in and ask for a product they heard about on some forum that isn't even available yet nationwide? They are installing this in about 5 markets and you are listed as Texas and if thats accurate you will not get it. Just wait until national launch and stop calling customer service expecting someone to know about a product that hasn't launched yet.


----------



## jimmie57

west99999 said:


> Why is it that someone always has to be the one to call in and ask for a product they heard about on some forum that isn't even available yet nationwide? They are installing this in about 5 markets and you are listed as Texas and if thats accurate you will not get it. Just wait until national launch and stop calling customer service expecting someone to know about a product that hasn't launched yet.


I do not want one. There is a lot of speculation on this thread about pricing and I thought they might have it since they are being installed. They are being installed in Dallas and Atlanta, GA. which I did not know until I made the call. Of course that could be misinformation also.


----------



## Soccernut

machavez00 said:


> it's coming.
> NHK 8K Super Hi-Vision Makes Stateside Debut at Yankees-Mariners Series


I wonder if that's why all broadcasters are dragging their feet with 4K?


----------



## slice1900

They'll use 8K cameras eventually because it is easier to zoom in during instant replay, but I'll bet any amount of money we never see 8K broadcasts in the US (Japan might, but they fetishize technology in a way Americans never have and never will)

They certainly aren't dragging their feet on 4K waiting for 8K to appear!


----------



## inkahauts

I see 8k as an IMAX type thing. It'll be a thing at movie theaters and in people's homes who buy 30k projectors. Otherwise I don't expect 8k to go mainstream in the US. But hey that would be interesting.


----------



## P Smith

machavez00 said:


> it's coming.
> NHK 8K Super Hi-Vision Makes Stateside Debut at Yankees-Mariners Series


it posted Tuesday, July 21, 2015 - 1:55 pm, probably already done, mostly


----------



## slice1900

Another reason to produce sports in 8K even if you never broadcast in 8K - it will look better on those gigantic screens they have in the stadiums (assuming they actually have 8K pixels)


----------



## b52pooh

It appears that article was from 2015, so I would have expected to hear a lot more about 8k development recently. The four test markets for the HS17 are Georgia, San Diego, Los Angeles and Sacramento. And there is no TV fee for the server, only for the mini's.


----------



## CraigerM

b52pooh said:


> It appears that article was from 2015, so I would have expected to hear a lot more about 8k development recently. The four test markets for the HS17 are Georgia, San Diego, Los Angeles and Sacramento. And there is no TV fee for the server, only for the mini's.


Not even the $15 Advanced Receiver Fee? Or the old $23 a month fee?


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> Not even the $15 Advanced Receiver Fee? Or the old $23 a month fee?


That's not a TV fee, that's an overall fee on the account.


----------



## CraigerM

slice1900 said:


> That's not a TV fee, that's an overall fee on the account.


Oh ok I think I get it now, thanks. So right now they charge you the $15 Advanced Receiver Fee plus another $7 a month for the HR-44 and HR-54 for new customers. With the HS-17 system it would just be the $15 Advanced Receiver Fee and not the $7 a month extra? Would current customers get that fee structure upgrading to the HS-17?


----------



## CraigerM

I know I have talked about the HS-17 failing before and others saying that their would be other points of failure along the system also. However, I thought of something else wouldn't it be bad to have all your recordings on the HS-17 and it breaks and not having cloud backup?


----------



## slice1900

CraigerM said:


> I know I have talked about the HS-17 failing before and others saying that their would be other points of failure along the system also. However, I thought of something else wouldn't it be bad to have all your recordings on the HS-17 and it breaks and not having cloud backup?


How is that any different than if a Genie breaks and you have all your recordings there? Until there is an option to have two HS17s, people who are concerned about backing up their recordings will stick with their old Genie + one or more HR24s.


----------



## Brad00111

CraigerM said:


> I know I have talked about the HS-17 failing before and others saying that their would be other points of failure along the system also. However, I thought of something else wouldn't it be bad to have all your recordings on the HS-17 and it breaks and not having cloud backup?


Until they offer, at minimum, a way to transfer series lists between receivers im not intentionally upgrading my current setup (HR44 and 2 HR24s).

I can't even explain how ridiculous it is that in 2017 there is no way to transfer atleast the shows that you want to record when a receiver fails or you upgrade.

Atleast if the HS-17 fails I can watch via the app on my iPad until a replacement comes but having to wait months to get my series list back to normal is too much unnecessary work.

Otherwise, I think I like this new setup and at minimum makes 4K less cumbersome vs having 2 separate receivers to accomplish it.


----------



## slice1900

Brad00111 said:


> I can't even explain how ridiculous it is that in 2017 there is no way to transfer atleast the shows that you want to record when a receiver fails or you upgrade.


I have a similar gripe with Tivo, which is why I haven't ever upgraded from my Tivo Premiere. I think they do have a way to transfer season passes, but it should be possible to buy a new Tivo, connect it to the network, have it find the other Tivo, if I want to set up as a new Tivo or copy ALL the settings (and, optionally, recordings) even down to thumb ratings from the old one.

It is so obvious people would want to do this, I simply can't figure out how they waste their resources adding more and more streaming options to Tivo and don't get this basic functionality added. So I'll just keep using this one, backing up its hard drive a few times a year so I won't lose too much if it fails, and Tivo will never get another penny from me because they are run by morons who don't make it easy for current owners to upgrade to a newer model.

I went through starting over once already when my Premiere replaced my Tivo 2, I'm not doing it again. How many fewer iPhone owners would there be if when you bought a new iPhone you had to manually copy your contacts, lost all your old text messages, had to reinstall apps, configure all your settings, etc. It is beyond belief that ANY company with products that carry so much personal state doesn't know that this should be near the top of the developers' task list. Way way way way way way way ahead of adding support for Pandora!


----------



## Bigg

I agree. This stuff shouldn't be that complicated to do in the cloud tied to your account. Having stuff tied to the box is getting pretty archaic. While satellite has to have a local DVR, the season passes, settings, and a list of the recordings could be stored in the cloud so that at least if the thing died, it could try to re-record them or get them from On Demand. Soon they will be competing with OTT providers and Comcast both having cloud DVR systems that live in the cloud, are backed up in the cloud, and are seamless to the user. Also, they should do use profiles. Such a simple thing to implement, and it would be an easy to advertise differentiating feature!


----------



## Bill Broderick

Playing Devil's advocate, imagine the crap that companies, such as DirecTV and Tivo, would get from privacy advocates if they started storing customer specific recording history in the cloud. 

Regardless of their intentions, and the benefit that it could provide to customers that want to utilize this information, the companies would be crucified. 

In the grand scheme of things, they are far better off not keeping track of this data. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Christopher Gould

Bill Broderick said:


> Playing Devil's advocate, imagine the crap that companies, such as DirecTV and Tivo, would get from privacy advocates if they started storing customer specific recording history in the cloud.
> 
> Regardless of their intentions, and the benefit that it could provide to customers that want to utilize this information, the companies would be crucified.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, they are far better off not keeping track of this data.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


All you have to do is allow people the option not to save to cloud


----------



## Bill Broderick

Christopher Gould said:


> All you have to do is allow people the option not to save to cloud


That might change reality. But, it wouldn't change the stories or the public's perception.

Perception is reality when corporate publicity is concerned.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## tonyc

I just got the genie 2 installed Friday , and I don't remember the trick to make the 30 sec button skip instead of slip, can someone help me.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Enter "30SKIP" in the search screen and press the red button. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## tonyc

CraigerM said:


> Oh ok I think I get it now, thanks. So right now they charge you the $15 Advanced Receiver Fee plus another $7 a month for the HR-44 and HR-54 for new customers. With the HS-17 system it would just be the $15 Advanced Receiver Fee and not the $7 a month extra? Would current customers get that fee structure upgrading to the HS-17?


Just got mine installed Friday and was told no price change, I pay $10 advanced receiver fee.


----------



## tonyc

Bill Broderick said:


> Enter "30SKIP" in the search screen and press the red button.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Thanks


----------



## HoTat2

tonyc said:


> Just got mine installed Friday and was told no price change, I pay $10 advanced receiver fee.


So what's the setup, how many and which type of clients. And how is the system performing so far?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## tonyc

HoTat2 said:


> So what's the setup, how many and which type of clients. And how is the system performing so far?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Mines simple I replaced a Hr44 with my protection plan upgrade ,so I got a Genie 2 as it's called and a C61 for the TV that the HR44 was connected to , don't have any 4K Tv yet, works great, the install went smooth tech replaced LNB and add a two way splitter where the power inserter was.
tech was familiar with the system he was part of the employee pilot test in California and that's how I was able to upgrade because of my location the CSR I spoke with was not sure but thinks august is the release for the rest of the country. On the order it called out a genie server .Also I have all wired clients a total of three now. 2-C51's & 1-C61 with new DTV logo on front.


----------



## HoTat2

tonyc said:


> Mines simple I replaced a Hr44 with my protection plan upgrade ,so I got a Genie 2 as it's called and a C61 for the TV that the HR44 was connected to , don't have any 4K Tv yet, works great, the install went smooth tech replaced LNB and add a two way splitter where the power inserter was.
> tech was familiar with the system he was part of the employee pilot test in California and that's how I was able to upgrade because of my location the CSR I spoke with was not sure but thinks august is the release for the rest of the country. On the order it called out a genie server .Also I have all wired clients a total of three now. 2-C51's & 1-C61 with new DTV logo on front.


Since you had no 4K yet, what model of LNB did the tech. give you if you can determine?

A Reverse Band capable one anyhow?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

Bill Broderick said:


> Playing Devil's advocate, imagine the crap that companies, such as DirecTV and Tivo, would get from privacy advocates* if they started storing customer specific recording history* in the cloud.


you're naive  missed my posts here about "STB health" logs what each DVR does sending (by Internet) to the companies? That "log" does have info what channel you tuned and how long ...


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> I have a similar gripe with Tivo, which is why I haven't ever upgraded from my Tivo Premiere. I think they do have a way to transfer season passes, but it should be possible to buy a new Tivo, connect it to the network, have it find the other Tivo, if I want to set up as a new Tivo or copy ALL the settings (and, optionally, recordings) even down to thumb ratings from the old one.
> 
> It is so obvious people would want to do this, I simply can't figure out how they waste their resources adding more and more streaming options to Tivo and don't get this basic functionality added. So I'll just keep using this one, backing up its hard drive a few times a year so I won't lose too much if it fails, and Tivo will never get another penny from me because they are run by morons who don't make it easy for current owners to upgrade to a newer model.
> 
> I went through starting over once already when my Premiere replaced my Tivo 2, I'm not doing it again. How many fewer iPhone owners would there be if when you bought a new iPhone you had to manually copy your contacts, lost all your old text messages, had to reinstall apps, configure all your settings, etc. It is beyond belief that ANY company with products that carry so much personal state doesn't know that this should be near the top of the developers' task list. Way way way way way way way ahead of adding support for Pandora!


You can transfer all of your season passes and your recordings with TiVo from an old one to a new one


----------



## Bigg

Guys, you missed the boat on the tinfoil hats. Comcast sends every button click and voice search from X1 up to the cloud through DSG. DirecTV could do the same if they wanted to, at least for boxes connected to the internet.


----------



## AZ.

As much as I would love to agree.....You do know that Congress just past a LAW (now signed)that allows all information based companies to sell all your info right?
So anything you do on line now can be sold to the highest bidder!
And for the most part the sheeple just dont care I guess?



Bill Broderick said:


> Playing Devil's advocate, imagine the crap that companies, such as DirecTV and Tivo, would get from privacy advocates if they started storing customer specific recording history in the cloud.
> 
> Regardless of their intentions, and the benefit that it could provide to customers that want to utilize this information, the companies would be crucified.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, they are far better off not keeping track of this data.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## NR4P

Bill Broderick said:


> Playing Devil's advocate, imagine the crap that companies, such as DirecTV and Tivo, would get from privacy advocates if they started storing customer specific recording history in the cloud.
> 
> Regardless of their intentions, and the benefit that it could provide to customers that want to utilize this information, the companies would be crucified.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, they are far better off not keeping track of this data.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


They are already doing this. Delete your Directv mDVR app (warning, download shows will disappear) Reload it and pay attention to the next screen that you have to AGREE to, to use the app. It states very clearly that all previous opt-out of data collection is nullified and they can and will track your usage.

Oh and our wonderful Congress just removed all privacy restraints on ISPs.

The Devil is already here.


----------



## tonyc

HoTat2 said:


> Since you had no 4K yet, what model of LNB did the tech. give you if you can determine?
> 
> A Reverse Band capable one anyhow?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


yes it is reverse band 22 channel count according to the info screen , not sure directv PN.
i should of requested a 4k mini than when i get my TV in a couple of months i would of been set.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> You can transfer all of your season passes and your recordings with TiVo from an old one to a new one


Not a complete solution as it doesn't copy your settings, thumb ratings, etc.


----------



## HoTat2

tonyc said:


> ...
> i should of requested a 4k mini than when i get my TV in a couple of months i would of been set.


AFAIK, DIRECTV won't install a C61K without a 4K TV.

But you can buy one from a third party retailer like SolidSignal before you have a 4K TV if you wish.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> Not a complete solution as it doesn't copy your settings, thumb ratings, etc.


True but it is more than everyone else offers


----------



## MysteryMan

NR4P said:


> They are already doing this. Delete your Directv mDVR app (warning, download shows will disappear) Reload it and pay attention to the next screen that you have to AGREE to, to use the app. It states very clearly that all previous opt-out of data collection is nullified and they can and will track your usage.
> 
> Oh and our wonderful Congress just removed all privacy restraints on ISPs.
> 
> The Devil is already here.


Congress: The opposite of progress.


----------



## patmurphey

compnurd said:


> True but it is more than everyone else offers


Dish remotes copy both timers and settings. And now recordings directly from Hoppers to Hopper3s bypassing EHDs.


----------



## dpeters11

Ok, but are those stored in nvram? So if someone with Dish copies the settings to the remote but they never use that remote, what happens if you take out the batteries or they die?


----------



## P Smith

dpeters11 said:


> Ok, but are those stored in nvram? So if someone with Dish copies the settings to the remote but they never use that remote, what happens if you take out the batteries or they die?


remote's NVRAM should keep those setting forever ...
DTV doesn't have so many user friendly features ... EHD tied to an account, backup/restore settings


----------



## patmurphey

dpeters11 said:


> Ok, but are those stored in nvram? So if someone with Dish copies the settings to the remote but they never use that remote, what happens if you take out the batteries or they die?


Geez! Who cares? the "timers and settings" last long enough to transfer to a new receiver. They are updated automatically, once a week, but you can manually update just before deactivating an old receiver.


----------



## dpeters11

patmurphey said:


> Geez! Who cares? the "timers and settings" last long enough to transfer to a new receiver. They are updated automatically, once a week, but you can manually update just before deactivating an old receiver.


Sure, if you use their remote or plan replacement. I'm thinking about those of us that use Harmony's or urc and our remotes are in the drawer with no batteries.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

dpeters11 said:


> Sure, if you use their remote or plan replacement. I'm thinking about those of us that use Harmony's or urc and our remotes are in the drawer with no batteries.


Pull it out of the drawer on transfer day, insert batteries and do the transfer.

At least the feature (along with content transfer) is there. DIRECTV equipment (such as the HS-17) makes no attempt at content or settings transfer.


----------



## dpeters11

James Long said:


> Pull it out of the drawer on transfer day, insert batteries and do the transfer.
> 
> At least the feature (along with content transfer) is there. DIRECTV equipment (such as the HS-17) makes no attempt at content or settings transfer.


Oh I agree. Myself I'd just prefer automatic cloud backup. I'd probably need to get a backup when it was too late to get one and hadn't done it in a while.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## patmurphey

Anything to criticize a feature that works very well from another provider. I only brought it up because a previous poster said the words "no one else has it", referring to a lesser TIVO feature.


----------



## inkahauts

Anything would be better than nothing for sure.


----------



## P Smith

DTV/ATT don't want new lawsuit from Charley


----------



## slice1900

What could Dish sue them for, unless they did exactly like them and had the remote control save your config? Maybe Dish has a patent on that goofy invention.

If they saved it to the cloud, or a USB stick plugged into the DVR, or to a network drive on your computer / NAS server Dish wouldn't have any grounds to sue because they don't own and can't patent the whole idea of saving a config.

Directv doesn't do it because they have show repeatedly they don't care about what a small minority of customers want. Most people don't care about this, or they wouldn't have 21 million paying customers. I can't imagine Dish has a lot of customers who would have chosen Directv if only they had a way to backup their season pass list.


----------



## James Long

It is a convenience. AT&T|DIRECTV has shown a lack of interest in such conveniences.
(I could provide a long list, but choose not to turn this into a DIRECTV bashing thread.)

I don't know where you get your statistics that only a "small minority" want any feature. Such claims are certainly just your opinion. I get the feeling that anything DIRECTV chooses to do is supported by "21 million paying customers" (an inaccurate figure) and anything DIRECTV chooses not to do is irrelevant. No PIP? Who cares. No transfer to other devices on an account? Who cares. No OTA support? Who cares. And if anyone does care just shout them down and say they are a "small minority".

It is better to focus on what the HS-17 can do rather than what it can't. The list is easier to manage. 

(Subscriber counts include subscribers who have suspended their accounts and "commercial equivalent viewing units". The published number is a calculation, not a count.)


----------



## jimmie57

slice1900 said:


> What could Dish sue them for, unless they did exactly like them and had the remote control save your config? Maybe Dish has a patent on that goofy invention.
> 
> If they saved it to the cloud, or a USB stick plugged into the DVR, or to a network drive on your computer / NAS server Dish wouldn't have any grounds to sue because they don't own and can't patent the whole idea of saving a config.
> 
> Directv doesn't do it because they have show repeatedly they don't care about what a small minority of customers want. Most people don't care about this, or they wouldn't have 21 million paying customers. I can't imagine Dish has a lot of customers who would have chosen Directv if only they had a way to backup their season pass list.


Question: When you restart / reset a DVR during the startup at some point it will say Rebuilding the Scheduler. Where is it getting that from ?


----------



## P Smith

from internal databases


----------



## makaiguy

James Long said:


> No PIP? Who cares.


PIP works quite well in my Genie, thank you.


----------



## patmurphey

makaiguy said:


> PIP works quite well in my Genie, thank you.


What's your point? the discussion is about features (PIP) dropped on the Genie 2 (HS-17). For the others here, I can't believe that you don't want a way to keep your recordings, timers and settings whenever you upgrade a receiver.


----------



## inkahauts

Anyone who says they don't want a way to transfer settings and such is just saying they will deal with it. There isn't a person who wouldn't use the feature when possible if it was there.


----------



## CTJon

Or at least they could provide the installers some custom proprietary process where they could copy settings and even recordings over to new DVR.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> Anyone who says they don't want a way to transfer settings and such is just saying they will deal with it. There isn't a person who wouldn't use the feature when possible if it was there.


I'm not saying people don't want it, of course everyone who upgrades and has more than a half dozen season passes will be happy to have this. I just don't believe very many want it to the extent that they will switch providers over it. After all, if you switch from Directv to Dish you redo your seasons passes, and you also have to learn a new interface and accept other factors like reduced PQ and some channels not available or in SD only.

Obviously there are some features like sports bar mode and some channels Dish has and Directv doesn't which would be an issue for customers going the other direction, because you tend to notice what you lose much more than what you gain! I find it hard to believe anyone is choosing Dish because they can save an hour every 3-5 years when they replace your main DVR. Automatically copying season passes is not going to be at the top of anyone's list when evaluating Directv vs. Dish vs. cable, if it is a deciding factor they must already rate them nearly equal in other ways.

My issue with Tivo I brought up earlier isn't even season passes. Given how rarely you replace your DVR, it isn't a big ask to spend an hour redoing all your season passes, comparing settings between the two and configuring them to match. Would it be nice to save that hour, sure, but it is hardly an undue burden in my mind.

Tivo however has thumb ratings which are important to the way people use it, and Directv and Dish do not have anything equivalent. They can't be copied manually no matter how much time you might be willing to devote to the task, because there isn't any way to list them all. Even if you could there would be no way to input them into the new Tivo because it is simply impossible to search on programs that aren't currently available to watch or record (which is another thing they should fix, but that's a separate argument) The only way to copy thumb ratings is for Tivo's software to do it.


----------



## NR4P

inkahauts said:


> Anyone who says they don't want a way to transfer settings and such is just saying they will deal with it. There isn't a person who wouldn't use the feature when possible if it was there.


It is a real head scratcher why Directv has never offered the SL back up feature. After all, when you open up the Directv app, it does know what you have recorded and presents them to you as downloadable recordings (mDVR) or VOD.

I have to imagine the SL table could be backed up so easily.

But then again, AT&T just discontinued the Address Book backup for all their phones.

Apparently if it isn't marketable for $, they don't seem to want to offer it as a customer pleaser.


----------



## slice1900

NR4P said:


> It is a real head scratcher why Directv has never offered the SL back up feature. After all, when you open up the Directv app, it does know what you have recorded and presents them to you as downloadable recordings (mDVR) or VOD.
> 
> I have to imagine the SL table could be backed up so easily.
> 
> But then again, AT&T just discontinued the Address Book backup for all their phones.
> 
> Apparently if it isn't marketable for $, they don't seem to want to offer it as a customer pleaser.


Yeah doing it via phone app would be pretty simple since even if you don't have internet in your home you can still use wifi to talk to access it. They'd just need to add buttons for "backup DVR settings" and "restore DVR settings".

Discontinuing address book backup makes sense because pretty much everyone is using iPhone or Android these days, and both have their own complete backup solution. What's the point of AT&T duplicating that with an inferior address book only backup?


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> Yeah doing it via phone app would be pretty simple since even if you don't have internet in your home you can still use wifi to talk to access it. They'd just need to add buttons for "backup DVR settings" and "restore DVR settings".
> 
> Discontinuing address book backup makes sense because pretty much everyone is using iPhone or Android these days, and both have their own complete backup solution. What's the point of AT&T duplicating that with an inferior address book only backup?


Wouldn't it have to be some kind of ad hoc WiFi connection from the techs. handheld to the DIRECTV receivers?

Since most customers would naturally object to giving DIRECTV techs. their passwords to logon to their home networks.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## James Long

HoTat2 said:


> Wouldn't it have to be some kind of ad hoc WiFi connection from the techs. handheld to the DIRECTV receivers?


The HS-17 has that.

With everything networked I would not mind a web interface on receivers ... for backups, setting timers as well as managing clients and receiver settings. It appears that the setup app can do the receivers settings via ad hoc.


----------



## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Wouldn't it have to be some kind of ad hoc WiFi connection from the techs. handheld to the DIRECTV receivers?
> 
> Since most customers would naturally object to giving DIRECTV techs. their passwords to logon to their home networks.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I get wifi passwords almost everyday. Although I never write them down or anything. I see no use for that. I'll tell you folks need to be more conscious of the wifi password choices. When in doubt try their phone number.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 1953

I've been told within DTV the HS17 will be referred to as a Client2. Seems sort of odd to me.


----------



## peds48

1953 said:


> I've been told within DTV the HS17 will be referred to as a Client2. Seems sort of odd to me.


No, Genie 2

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> No, Genie 2
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Or the "Genie Air" ... 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Or the "Genie Air" ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Haven't seen that anywhere in DIRECTV's internal comms, the HS17 has been referred to as Genie 2. Not saying it may not exits, but have not seen it myself.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 1953

That's correct, he said Genie 2.


----------



## peds48

1953 said:


> That's correct, he said Genie 2.


Exactly, all through internal comms is referred to as the Genie 2.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

Oh ... well of course I was referring to FCC filing info. on the HS17 where the product manual on file there has it listed as the "Genie Air."

Genie Air Users Manual Product Manual GenieAir 112216.SP_2Editsv1 OK Technicolor Connected Home USA LLC

But if that's erroneous now then I stand corrected.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Oh ... well of course I was referring to FCC filing info. on the HS17 where the product manual on file there has it listed as the "Genie Air."
> 
> Genie Air Users Manual Product Manual GenieAir 112216.SP_2Editsv1 OK Technicolor Connected Home USA LLC
> 
> But if that's erroneous now then I stand corrected.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


That might have been the initial name perhaps, since then they may have settled on genie 2.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## makaiguy

James Long said:


> It is a convenience. *AT&T|DIRECTV has shown a lack of interest in such conveniences.*
> (I could provide a long list, but choose not to turn this into a DIRECTV bashing thread.)
> 
> I don't know where you get your statistics that only a "small minority" want any feature. Such claims are certainly just your opinion. I get the feeling that anything DIRECTV chooses to do is supported by "21 million paying customers" (an inaccurate figure) and anything DIRECTV chooses not to do is irrelevant. *No PIP? Who cares. No transfer to other devices on an account? Who cares. No OTA support? Who cares.* And if anyone does care just shout them down and say they are a "small minority".
> 
> It is better to focus on what the HS-17 can do rather than what it can't. The list is easier to manage.
> 
> (Subscriber counts include subscribers who have suspended their accounts and "commercial equivalent viewing units". The published number is a calculation, not a count.)





patmurphey said:


> What's your point? the discussion is about features (PIP) dropped on the Genie 2 (HS-17). For the others here, I can't believe that you don't want a way to keep your recordings, timers and settings whenever you upgrade a receiver.


You're right. I took the post I was responding to as a general litany of things ATT doesn't care about. But in the context of Genie 2/HS-17, you're right, my post doesn't really apply. My apologies.


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

peds48 said:


> That might have been the initial name perhaps, since then they may have settled on genie 2.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Heck, when I log into my DTV account and look at my current equipment, they refer to my HR44 as a "Genie gen 2". This has been going on for about three weeks, as has been the "page moved" message when clicking the "HR54 Genie" link on the "4k upgrade" page.


----------



## ROK5TAR

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

Wolfmanjohn said:


> Heck, when I log into my DTV account and look at my current equipment, they refer to my HR44 as a "Genie gen 2". This has been going on for about three weeks, as has been the "page moved" message when clicking the "HR54 Genie" link on the "4k upgrade" page.


The "gen" here makes a world of difference here.

Think of it line iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s. Then you have iPhone 7.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Wolfmanjohn said:


> Heck, when I log into my DTV account and look at my current equipment, they refer to my HR44 as a "Genie gen 2". This has been going on for about three weeks, as has been the "page moved" message when clicking the "HR54 Genie" link on the "4k upgrade" page.


There is the original genie. And then there is the genie 2. HS17 is the only genie 2 as it's the first one. It's a different enough platform than the genie was that it's worthy of a new name.

The generation thing has come about because there where four separate generations of the original genie and each actually has something the one before physically can't do. Example.. 1st generation can not do mobile DVR. 2nd generation can't do 4k. There is also the outlayer genie lite. 3rd generation genie does 4k. But all of them are four room solutions With 5 tuners.

The genie 2 is a seven room solution with seven tuners and headless server. So it's more versatile in many ways because it's hardware is significantly designed differently.


----------



## tothefloor

Will the HS17 work with my SL3-SWM? I don't' have a 14k TV yet and won't for another year or so.

The SL3 is attached to my SK-SWM3 winegard Travler on my RV.


----------



## studechip

tothefloor said:


> Will the HS17 work with my SL3-SWM? I dont' have a 14k TV yet and won't for another year of so.
> 
> The SL3 is attached to my winegard Travler on my RV.


Yes but you will need the newer reverse band lnb to get the future 4k channels.


----------



## tothefloor

Are you sure it will work with the SK-SWM3? Its this one. Amazon.com: Winegard SK-SWM3 Slimline Automatic Multi-Satellite TV Antenna: Automotive

I have an email into Winegard. We will see what they say. I have time to cancel the install and go with an HR44-700 but I would prefer the new 2.0.


----------



## ROK5TAR

If you can get the 99 and 103 I don't see why not


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

I have a feeling that once this rolls out nationally it wont activate with full tuners support as part of the IV process, if this were to be the case then a digital SWM LNB would be required at the very least and it will not support legacy SWM. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

peds48 said:


> I have a feeling that once this rolls out nationally it wont activate with full tuners support as part of the IV process, if this were to be the case then a digital SWM LNB would be required at the very least and it will not support legacy SWM.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


What exactly are you talking about?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

studechip said:


> Yes but you *will need* the newer reverse band lnb to get the future 4k channels.


it overkill statement
everything is possible in a future or NOT !


----------



## carl6

peds48 said:


> I have a feeling that once this rolls out nationally it wont activate with full tuners support as part of the IV process, if this were to be the case then a digital SWM LNB would be required at the very least and it will not support legacy SWM.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





ROK5TAR said:


> What exactly are you talking about?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In a few words: It will technically work (no 4K down the road), but policy won't allow you to get it activated unless you have the correct LNB to support 4K. So "Will it work?" Yes. "Will directv permit you to do that?" No.


----------



## studechip

P Smith said:


> it overkill statement
> everything is possible in a future or NOT !


What's overkill about my post? If/when 4k channels are added they will require the reverse band lnb.


----------



## DBSSTEPHEN

studechip said:


> What's overkill about my post? If/when 4k channels are added they will require the reverse band lnb.


Well that dish that they installed at my dad's house last November they installed a reverse band lnb on it even though he doesn't have 4K and the reason I know it's a reverse bands because the guy said it was and it also says the receiver satellite setup screen it says reverse band it will be so I say that already installing them

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk


----------



## Laxguy

They certainly installed a Reverse Band here when I moved house in March, but I already had 4K.


----------



## P Smith

studechip said:


> What's overkill about my post? *If/when 4k channels are added they will require the reverse band lnb.*


that's it !


----------



## b52pooh

tothefloor said:


> Are you sure it will work with the SK-SWM3? Its this one. Amazon.com: Winegard SK-SWM3 Slimline Automatic Multi-Satellite TV Antenna: Automotive
> 
> I have an email into Winegard. We will see what they say. I have time to cancel the install and go with an HR44-700 but I would prefer the new 2.0.


Don't forget that there is no TV connection for the Genie2. You will stil need a mini to connect to the TV.


----------



## HoTat2

studechip said:


> What's overkill about my post? If/when 4k channels are added they will require the reverse band lnb.


And it's actually "if/when 4K channels are *moved to the Reverse Band* they will obviously then require a RB capable LNB to receive them."

As 4K channels are already "added," but for now on the Ka band as part of the initial phase of the linear 4K rollout.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## studechip

HoTat2 said:


> And it's actually "if/when 4K channels are *moved to the Reverse Band* they will obviously then require a RB capable LNB to receive them."
> 
> As 4K channels are already "added," but for now on the Ka band as part of the initial phase of the linear 4K rollout.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


True, but the plans as we know them are for future channels to require the reverse band lnb. That's why I specifically mentioned "in the future".


----------



## studechip

P Smith said:


> that's it !


Since I said in my original post that the reverse band lnb was for future channels, your post responding to it was completely unnecessary.


----------



## P Smith

studechip said:


> True, but the plans as we know them are for future channels to require the reverse band lnb. That's why I specifically mentioned "in the future".


DTV has bad history of implementing own plans - don't hold your breath or just don't push DTV plans as written in the stone
be a realist


----------



## slice1900

studechip said:


> True, but the plans as we know them are for future channels to require the reverse band lnb. That's why I specifically mentioned "in the future".


I was told Directv isn't planning to start using reverse band until fall 2018. Says something about both the timeline for when reverse band LNBs will truly be required, and for Directv's expectations of when there might be some real 4K channels for them to add...


----------



## peds48

ROK5TAR said:


> What exactly are you talking about?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So I see you are behaving good in the field. Try activating and HDDVR or Genie without enough tuners. That is what I think it will happen with the 17, so even thought it may work with a SWM8 system such a SWM8 or 16 switch DIRECTV may impose policy where you must have enough tuners to activate. So only option for the 17 would be digital SWM or SWM30 multi switch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> So I see you are behaving good in the field. Try activating and HDDVR or Genie without enough tuners. That is what I think it will happen with the 17, so even thought it may work with a SWM8 system such a SWM8 or 16 switch DIRECTV may impose policy where you must have enough tuners to activate. So only option for the 17 would be digital SWM or SWM30 multi switch.


They can't impose such a policy until the legacy reverse band LNB and DSWM30 are in wide release, and MDUs can be expected to have already or be scheduled to upgrade. Since that will mean running additional trunk lines for some, maybe that's a big reason behind the fall 2018 date I mentioned above.


----------



## ROK5TAR

peds48 said:


> So I see you are behaving good in the field. Try activating and HDDVR or Genie without enough tuners. That is what I think it will happen with the 17, so even thought it may work with a SWM8 system such a SWM8 or 16 switch DIRECTV may impose policy where you must have enough tuners to activate. So only option for the 17 would be digital SWM or SWM30 multi switch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's exactly what would happen. Just wasn't sure what you meant. What happens is you can't activate without using the correct lnb. Digital or reverse.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> They can't impose such a policy until the legacy reverse band LNB and DSWM30 are in wide release, and MDUs can be expected to have already or be scheduled to upgrade. Since that will mean running additional trunk lines for some, maybe that's a big reason behind the fall 2018 date I mentioned above.


Not necessarily, they can just limit the 17 to residential only or don't enforce IV in MDUs. But if looks from the post above that is already being enforced.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> They can't impose such a policy until the legacy reverse band LNB and DSWM30 are in wide release, and MDUs can be expected to have already or be scheduled to upgrade. Since that will mean running additional trunk lines for some, maybe that's a big reason behind the fall 2018 date I mentioned above.


looks like your good point to move international channels from 95W doesn't play well


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> looks like your good point to move international channels from 95W doesn't play well


I never suggested _moving_ the international channels, just mirroring them. They could have saved money with every residential international install from that date until 2019 that way.

But obviously Directv has their own reasons for what they do, and what I think makes financial sense for them as an outside observer may be overruled by other factors we have no visibility into...


----------



## CraigerM

I forgot if this was covered but does the HS-17 have to be connected to the Internet? What it you didn't care about their VOD service and wanted to use another one? Or say someone didn't want to have home Internet and just have it on their smart phone?


----------



## ROK5TAR

CraigerM said:


> I forgot if this was covered but does the HS-17 have to be connected to the Internet? What it you didn't care about their VOD service and wanted to use another one? Or say someone didn't want to have home Internet and just have it on their smart phone?


No

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

ROK5TAR said:


> No
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So it wouldn't keep detecting that you have the Internet? Weren't they saying in this thread that software updates would come over the Internet instead of the dish? Or that it would come over both but the software updates would be faster over the Internet than the dish?


----------



## ROK5TAR

CraigerM said:


> So it wouldn't keep detecting that you have the Internet? Weren't they saying in this thread that software updates would come over the Internet instead of the dish? Or that it would come over both but the software updates would be faster over the Internet than the dish?


It acts just like genie. It will show not connected in menu. Updates will go faster if connected through internet but to me that doesn't really matter. Updates are pushed through internet and satellite now just for hs-17 I believe

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tothefloor

Hooked my HS17 up to my winegard trav'ler with a SL3-SWM today and error 776 came up. Arrrg

Not happy.

I ran a test and it said no SWM channels were available. They were though and I was able to record all 7.

It said there was a software upgrade but if this continues I will have to exchange it out for a HR44 or HR54. The 54 might cause the same issues though.


----------



## inkahauts

Why not just swap the lnb? If I am reading that right you are using a swim lnb now so swap the lnb and be done with it.


----------



## ROK5TAR

tothefloor said:


> Hooked my HS17 up to my winegard trav'ler with a SL3-SWM today and error 776 came up. Arrrg
> 
> Not happy.
> 
> I ran a test and it said no SWM channels were available. They were though and I was able to record all 7.
> 
> It said there was a software upgrade but if this continues I will have to exchange it out for a HR44 or HR54. The 54 might cause the same issues though.


Change the lnb to digital or reverse band. Hs17 requires 11 tuners.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

ROK5TAR said:


> Change the lnb to digital or reverse band. Hs17 requires 11 tuners.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just confusing how in the reviews and initial manual posted on the FCC website, the HS17 supposedly works with the older analog SWiMs by needing only 7 SWiM program channels.

And requiring 11 channels only when a Reverse Band capable digital SWiM is detected.

Note: Since I noticed my HR54 only grabbed 5 SWiM program channels when I briefly had a 3D2 digital LNB.

I would therefore assume the HS17 requires only 7 SWiM program channels for both non-RB digital LNBs 3DS and 3D2 types (though granted I've never had a 1st gen. 3DS to be certain, but assume it will perform like its 2nd gen. version, the 3D2).

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Look, don't expect the hs17 to work unless it's on a reverse band lnb. Then no one will be disappointed. It's not meant to work on anything less even if sometimes it does.


----------



## peds48

tothefloor said:


> Hooked my HS17 up to my winegard trav'ler with a SL3-SWM today and error 776 came up. Arrrg
> 
> .


This is exactly what I just posted a few days ago. It looks like DIRECTV is enforcing IV now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ROK5TAR

inkahauts said:


> Look, don't expect the hs17 to work unless it's on a reverse band lnb. Then no one will be disappointed. It's not meant to work on anything less even if sometimes it does.


Works on digital fine

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

this is become boring - "only RB DLNB !"


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> this is become boring - "only RB DLNB !"


Yeah, possibly boring P. Smith ...

But in fairness as I said, there is justifiable confusion here since the reviews and photos in the initial manual on file with the FCC indicate that the HS17 would work with analog SWiMs by only activating 7 of its tuners.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

and DLNB without RB would be sufficient


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> and DLNB without RB would be sufficient


For now. DIRECTV is seeking to future proof the installations by requiring RB.

As long as DIRECTV is paying for the RBLNB why not future proof? It is better than needing a change when the first channel is put on RB.

If the customer is paying for the RBLNB and they already have a DLNB they could put off the expense until the first channel is launched. If they need to buy a DLNB they might as well buy the RBLNB and future proof - as much as possible.


----------



## 1953

Just remembered. During DTV's last visit the tech made several changes mandated by the new AT&T DTV. One was the way cabling is grouped (if that is the proper term) before entering the house. The second was a change out of the dish's LNB (LNBs).

Question. Is there a way I can find out which LNBs on the dish?


----------



## MysteryMan

1953 said:


> Just remembered. During DTV's last visit the tech made several changes mandated by the new AT&T DTV. One was the way cabling is grouped (if that is the proper term) before entering the house. The second was a change out of the dish's LNB (LNBs).
> 
> Question. Is there a way I can find out which LNBs on the dish?


Using your DIRECTV remote select SETTINGS - INFO & TEST - SYSTEM INFO. Menu will tell you what type of LNB you have.


----------



## 1953

Thanks MM. My dish has SL3 LNB. Is that a modern and good type?


----------



## HoTat2

1953 said:


> Thanks MM. My dish has SL3 LNB. Is that a modern and good type?


What are the other LNB info. listings?

Switch Type = ?

RB/INTL = ?

SWM CH. Count = ?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## NR4P

1953 said:


> Thanks MM. My dish has SL3 LNB. Is that a modern and good type?


Your signature shows you don't have a HS17 or HR54 so you don't need the latest RB LNB yet.


----------



## HoTat2

NR4P said:


> Your signature shows you don't have a HS17 or HR54 so you don't need the latest RB LNB yet.


While I don't believe he has a RB LNB either,...

Still, how can you really tell with only his mention of "SL3 LNB?"

As I have a 5D2RB (or Reverse Band 5) and it's listed on my Info. screen under "Dish Type" merely as a "SL5 LNB."

That's why I asked him for more information from the Info. screen to properly indentify the type of LNB.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## 1953

Btw everyone, I'm simply curious about and maybe why DTV changed the LNB.

Here is the data you requested.

Switch Type = *SWM LNB*

RB/INTL = *None Selected*

SWM CH. Count = *8*
------------------------------------
Look forward to learn more. Thanks


----------



## HoTat2

1953 said:


> Btw everyone, I'm simply curious about and maybe why DTV changed the LNB.
> 
> Here is the data you requested.
> 
> Switch Type = *SWM LNB*
> 
> RB/INTL = *None Selected*
> 
> SWM CH. Count = *8*
> ------------------------------------
> Look forward to learn more. Thanks


Ok ...

That's a standard analog SWiM LNB with 8 SWiM channels. And was probably installed by DIRECTV when they upgraded you to SWiM from a previous legacy installation with a 4 coax output LNB.

So if you get an HS17 that LNB will have to be changed out for at least a non-Reverse Band 13 SWiM channel "3DS" or 21 SWiM channel "3D2."

Or preferably a 21 SWiM channel "3D2RB" Reverse Band capable LNB for future-proofing.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## 1953

Thank you.


----------



## patmurphey

Why is it so complicated? When Dish introduced the Hopper3, the upgrade included new Hybrid LNB, new hub, and upgrading Joeys - all free. 4k Joeys were $50. No 4k TV was required for any installation.


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

1953 said:


> During DTV's last visit the tech made several changes mandated by the new AT&T DTV. One was the way cabling is grouped (if that is the proper term) before entering the house.


I'd like to learn more about that.


----------



## 1953

Wolfmanjohn said:


> I'd like to learn more about that.


All I can say is I had DTV here to move my coax to a different location. Before doing that task the lead tech told me they had to make a couple of mandatory changes. LNB change and coax from sat reconfiguration. That's all I know.


----------



## boukengreen

If I read everything correctly this uses its own wifi network for everything besides software updates and VOD correct? Trying to decide if this will be a good upgrade when I move into my parents house from my grandparents around July and we start a new account under my name


----------



## HoTat2

boukengreen said:


> If I read everything correctly this uses its own wifi network for everything besides software updates and VOD correct? Trying to decide if this will be a good upgrade when I move into my parents house from my grandparents around July and we start a new account under my name


It can use either ethernet or WiFi for connection to a home router and the internet for VOD, DIRECTV apps, PPV callbacks, firmware updates, etc.

And it has a built-in "Wireless Video Bridge" (WVB) for a "closed" ad-hoc WiFi network for communication with wireless Genie Mini clients if used.

Just keep in mind that the HS17 may only be used with Mini clients on the same account. NO other prior DIRECTV receivers are allowed, nor will the HS17 work with the AM21 off-air ATSC tuner module.

Which for me personally, all the above makes the HS17 system a complete non-starter in my household here ....

Presently an HR54 Genie + 5 HR24s (4 of the HR24s have AM21s).

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## boukengreen

HoTat2 said:


> It can use either ethernet or WiFi for connection to a home router and the internet for VOD, DIRECTV apps, PPV callbacks, firmware updates, etc.
> 
> And it has a built-in "Wireless Video Bridge" (WVB) for a "closed" ad-hoc WiFi network for communication with wireless Genie Mini clients if used.
> 
> Just keep in mind that the HS17 may only be used with Mini clients on the same account. NO other prior DIRECTV receivers are allowed, nor will the HS17 work with the AM21 off-air ATSC tuner module.
> 
> Which for me personally, all the above makes the HS17 system a complete non-starter in my household here ....
> 
> Presently an HR54 Genie + 5 HR24s (4 of the HR24s have AM21s).
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Yea that's why it won't work with my grandparents as they also have a receiver that is kept at the hunting lodge but the only thing that is the minor concern will be not being able to use an AM21 but not that big as we don't have one there now plus it would be a new account at my parents when I move in there with only 3 clients so no biggie there as me and my watch a few of the same shows


----------



## guod5

We had an HR34 and an HR24 that was slow and directv came out and said we could upgrade our whole house to the HS17 system. They said it would be way faster and better than either of the DVRs we had and so far that has not been the case. They installed new wiring from the dish, new lnb, the server and we got 4 clients. Each one takes a long time to boot up, sometimes it will say connection failed and to retry, even though the client is in the same room as the server. We also have a 5-8 second lag when changing channels or trying to get to the list. 

It doesnt seem to play nicely with our Js8500 samsung tv, as if we use the smart function on the tv, we get an Anynet+ device has been disconnected, or some other anynet+ device, as the TV thinks it is seeing an HDMI-CEC device. On one of our other TV's every time we change the channel, the screen flashes and will display the resolution, as if the box is changing the res, but I turned native off and only have 1080i and 1080p selected in the video resolutions. 

So far our experience with the HS17 has not been a great one and I never thought I'd say it, but I miss the HR34. It was slow, but not this slow and never had these funky issues.


----------



## slice1900

You should have Directv out to fix your system. It should not take 5-8 seconds to change a channel, something is badly wrong with your system if you are getting 'connection failed' messages.


----------



## RAD

guod5 said:


> On one of our other TV's every time we change the channel, the screen flashes and will display the resolution, as if the box is changing the res, but I turned native off and only have 1080i and 1080p selected in the video resolutions.


I see something similar to this when using DIRECTV clients and switching between channels of different broadcast resolution, like from HBO (1080i) to FX (720p). The new channel displays the video for a quick second, blanks out and then displays the channel. Native is set to off on the clients so it shouldn't be trying to change resolutions. This doesn't happen on the set if I'm using the RVU client software in the TV, only when using a mini client and I know it's not the TV since I also have a mini client on the RVU TV and only the mini client does it.


----------



## HoTat2

guod5 said:


> We had an HR34 and an HR24 that was slow and directv came out and said we could upgrade our whole house to the HS17 system. They said it would be way faster and better than either of the DVRs we had and so far that has not been the case. They installed new wiring from the dish, new lnb, the server and we got 4 clients. Each one takes a long time to boot up, sometimes it will say connection failed and to retry, even though the client is in the same room as the server. We also have a 5-8 second lag when changing channels or trying to get to the list.
> 
> It doesnt seem to play nicely with our Js8500 samsung tv, as if we use the smart function on the tv, we get an Anynet+ device has been disconnected, or some other anynet+ device, as the TV thinks it is seeing an HDMI-CEC device. On one of our other TV's every time we change the channel, the screen flashes and will display the resolution, as if the box is changing the res, but I turned native off and only have 1080i and 1080p selected in the video resolutions.
> 
> So far our experience with the HS17 has not been a great one and I never thought I'd say it, but I miss the HR34. It was slow, but not this slow and never had these funky issues.


Oh boy ....

DIRECTV is making the same sales pitch to us as an upgrade (We're out of contract right now) to replace our current ("fast") HR54 and 5 ("slow") HR24s with the HS17 and 6 clients. Promises it will be a faster system and cleaner install, especially in the case of replacing the HR24s. And more energy efficient instead of the drain of powering 6 HDDs every month.

We're considering it though it will mean the additional cost of purchasing TIVO Minis for OTA to replace AM21s on some of the HR24s plus MoCA D band adapters and other miscellaneous parts for setting up a separate MoCA network on the OTA coax.

(Obviously don't think it's a good idea to try and feed 3 TIVO Minis through the DIRECTV MoCA coax net. with the bandwidth needed for all the RVU streaming sessions between an HS17 and six clients).

But now reading about your situation is giving us some pause right now .... 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## studechip

HoTat2 said:


> Oh boy ....
> 
> DIRECTV is making the same sales pitch to us as an upgrade (We're out of contract right now) to replace our current ("fast") HR54 and 5 ("slow") HR24s with the HS17 and 6 clients. Promises it will be a faster system and cleaner install, especially in the case of replacing the HR24s. And more energy efficient instead of the drain of powering 6 HDDs every month.
> 
> We're considering it though it will mean the additional cost of purchasing TIVO Minis for OTA to replace AM21s on some of the HR24s plus MoCA D band adapters and other miscellaneous parts for setting up a separate MoCA network on the OTA coax.
> 
> (Obviously don't think it's a good idea to try and feed 3 TIVO Minis through the DIRECTV MoCA coax net. with the bandwidth needed for all the RVU streaming sessions between an HS17 and six clients).
> 
> But now reading about your situation is giving us some pause right now ....
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I would NEVER take an HS17 if for no other reason than it only supports clients. No AM21 is another reason.


----------



## guod5

slice1900 said:


> You should have Directv out to fix your system. It should not take 5-8 seconds to change a channel, something is badly wrong with your system if you are getting 'connection failed' messages.


really? Damn. We just got it installed last friday and they told us this was normal until the server settled in by downloading the guide data


----------



## inkahauts

Horse pucky. First I wonder if your router is causing any issues. I might kill the internet connection for a bit. Second I’d kill the hdmi cec stuff for a while and see if that has an affect. And also Turn off native. Set it to one resolution and leave it. See if any of those affect your issues. You shouldn’t be having the issues you mention. I never have. That is not normal at all even on day one.


----------



## hancox

studechip said:


> I would NEVER take an HS17 if for no other reason than it only supports clients. No AM21 is another reason.


Bingo. Clients are slower, more problematic, and doorstops if the genie goes awry.


----------



## carl6

Are you using the television itself as the client, or do you have a separate C61 client? My HS17 (with physical clients) is very responsive.

Also, if you have clients, are the wired or wireless? If wireless, go to wired.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Horse pucky. First I wonder if your router is causing any issues. I might kill the internet connection for a bit. Second I'd kill the hdmi cec stuff for a while and see if that has an affect. And also Turn off native. Set it to one resolution and leave it. See if any of those affect your issues. You shouldn't be having the issues you mention. I never have. That is not normal at all even on day one.


Seems as if all my HRs do what he reports. I can't get them to work any better. Yeah, blame the router. That's a vague guess. I took a 24-100 out of my shed yesterday and wiped the HDD in it clean hoping to get one HR that I can use to watch ballgames without problems. Worked very well during the All Star game. Can't wait for the software to wreck it. Can we blame the crappy software for these problems? You know, point the finger at a solid target instead of an abstract one. I've been running my HRs on Native for years without ever considering changing to another setting, why would that have anything to do with these problems?

Rich


----------



## Rich

hancox said:


> Bingo. Clients are slower, more problematic, and doorstops if the *genie goes awry*.


Oh, that won't happen. The Genies are simply the greatest DVRs ever produced. My HR44-700 only locks up once or twice a week and has the same bloatware problems as my two tuner HRs. But wait, my Genie must be the only one with bloatware. I guess that's normal.

Rich


----------



## Rich

carl6 said:


> Are you using the television itself as the client, or do you have a separate C61 client? My HS17 (with physical clients) is very responsive.
> 
> Also, if you have clients, *are the wired or wireless*? If wireless, go to wired.


I was just gonna ask that question, if it's a wireless system that would make the router not an issue, not that I think it's an issue.

Rich


----------



## studechip

Rich said:


> Oh, that won't happen. The Genies are simply the greatest DVRs ever produced. My HR44-700 only locks up once or twice a week and has the same bloatware problems as my two tuner HRs. But wait, my Genie must be the only one with bloatware. I guess that's normal.
> 
> Rich


I've had my HR44 for eight months, it hasn't locked up once.


----------



## MysteryMan

studechip said:


> I've had my HR44 for eight months, it hasn't locked up once.


My HR54-200 has been issue free since getting it in July 2015.


----------



## CraigerM

My HR-44 used to lock up sometimes it hasn't done it lately. It still does have a delay pressing the info button sometimes. I thought it got fixed but I guess it didn't.


----------



## HoTat2

MysteryMan said:


> My HR54-200 has been issue free since getting it in July 2015.


Same with my HR54-500 ...

Issue free since swapping it out for a disastrous HR34 (at the time anyway) several years ago.

But its the decaying performance of the 5 HR24s thats the issue causing us to consider the HS17 with 6 clients.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> Seems as if all my HRs do what he reports. I can't get them to work any better. Yeah, blame the router. That's a vague guess. I took a 24-100 out of my shed yesterday and wiped the HDD in it clean hoping to get one HR that I can use to watch ballgames without problems. Worked very well during the All Star game. Can't wait for the software to wreck it. Can we blame the crappy software for these problems? You know, point the finger at a solid target instead of an abstract one. I've been running my HRs on Native for years without ever considering changing to another setting, why would that have anything to do with these problems?
> 
> Rich


Rich i am suggesting the router could be the cause of it not connecting right. Same can happen with any DIRECTV receiver. It's a simple way to start troubleshooting that issue and I never said DIRECTV software couldn't be better dealing with those issues. The hs17 has some significant difference in its base code over even other genies.

With that said my wireless old c41w client connected to my hs17 is faster once booted up than my last HR24 was. It's takes a little longer to turn in is all which is really a non issue imho. I have my sound system turn on slowly anyway.

And I think the HR2xs have some software issues right now. I think they are working on it as we speak. Could be wrong but the signs point that way... I suspect they will see new software soonish.


----------



## jimmie57

inkahauts said:


> Rich i am suggesting the router could be the cause of it not connecting right. Same can happen with any DIRECTV receiver. It's a simple way to start troubleshooting that issue and I never said DIRECTV software couldn't be better dealing with those issues. The hs17 has some significant difference in its base code over even other genies.
> 
> With that said my wireless old c41w client connected to my hs17 is faster once booted up than my last HR24 was. It's takes a little longer to turn in is all which is really a non issue imho. I have my sound system turn on slowly anyway.
> 
> And I think the HR2xs have some software issues right now. I think they are working on it as we speak. Could be wrong but the signs point that way... I suspect they will see new software soonish.


HR24 definitely very slow since the last software update. I think it is the slowest since it's inception.


----------



## inkahauts

jimmie57 said:


> HR24 definitely very slow since the last software update. I think it is the slowest since it's inception.


Yeah and I think they know and are working on it.


----------



## Rich

HoTat2 said:


> Same with my HR54-500 ...
> 
> Issue free since swapping it out for a disastrous HR34 (at the time anyway) several years ago.
> 
> *But its the decaying performance of the 5 HR24s thats the issue* causing us to consider the HS17 with 6 clients.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I just put an HR24-100 back in service. Had practically no hours on it, a new 1TB drive in it that I emptied. It replaced a 24-100 that locked up constantly. No issues with it at all so far. It's not the 2 tuner HRs that are at fault, it's the software on them that's causing the slowness we see. The replacement is fast and very responsive.

I'm gonna keep saying it's the software, not the hardware that causes the slowdowns. I see it on my HR44-700 too. It used to be very responsive, now it's kinda slow--not as bad as the 24s, but it's noticeable. If you have no problems with your Genies slowing down or locking up occasionally, good for you, I'm not making this up I see the same things happening to the 44 as I see happening on most of my 24s. I've done everything I can think of to get them running properly but nothing seems to work (you may assume I've done all the obvious things).

Rich


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Rich i am suggesting the router could be the cause of it not connecting right. Same can happen with any DIRECTV receiver. It's a simple way to start troubleshooting that issue and I never said DIRECTV software couldn't be better dealing with those issues. The hs17 has some significant difference in its base code over even other genies.
> 
> With that said my wireless old c41w client connected to my hs17 is faster once booted up than my last HR24 was. It's takes a little longer to turn in is all which is really a non issue imho. I have my sound system turn on slowly anyway.
> 
> And I think the HR2xs have some software issues right now. *I think they are working on it as we speak*. Could be wrong but the signs point that way... I suspect they will see new software soonish.


What makes you think that? Did a CSR tell you? This is nothing new.

Rich


----------



## Rich

jimmie57 said:


> HR24 definitely very slow since the last software update. I think it is the slowest since it's inception.


I really see it on the 24-100s. I use a 24-200 occasionally and see very few issues with it. I also use a 24-500 from time to time and that works fairly well. The 100s are what they are...cheap. Cheap just like all the HRs ending in 100 have been. That replacement 100 I just put in service will slow down in a bit, right now it's a pleasure to use it. All the 100s I have except the replacement are slow and prone to lockups. Cheap is cheap and you can't shine cheap, I think.

Rich


----------



## slice1900

To be fair, the HR24s have fulfilled their five year design lifetime at this point. Looks like Directv may be trying to get the software to do too much, they should just get the H2x/HR2x boxes working acceptably well and then quit updating them except where required (i.e. when they drop MPEG2 they might need to change how SD duplicates work if they switch MPEG2 SD to MPEG4 SD)


----------



## Rich

I'm pretty sure I could buy a new HDD, throw it in the 24-100 that I just decommissioned and get rid of all the problems I had with it. But that would entail work just to prove a point and I don't really care that much. I truly think there's nothing wrong with any of the HRs physically, just crappy software. I used the just revived 24-100 last night to watch the ballgame and it worked perfectly. No freezeups, no waiting, no weirdness. Next time it gets an NR, I'll bet it begins to get wonkey. 

Rich


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> And also Turn off native.


BINGO. Native will add 2 - 4 seconds to a channel change EASY. When you have native on and you change channels to a channel that has a different resolution then the one you were on, the entire video chain needs to resync (HDCP included).


----------



## SledgeHammer

Rich said:


> I'm gonna keep saying it's the software, not the hardware that causes the slowdowns. I see it on my HR44-700 too. It used to be very responsive, now it's kinda slow--not as bad as the 24s, but it's noticeable.


I keep my HR24 pretty empty too since I tend to watch stuff quickly. I believe the hardware is fine for what it is. The software "in general" seems fine too. To me, it seems like some background task is going on in the evenings that is causing the UI to slow to a crawl. Mornings / afternoons / late nights it seems fine. Wouldn't call it super fast, but definitely don't see the 15 second UI lockups during the "fast times". For me, in California, the box becomes unusable 5pm to 6pm'ish on an almost daily basis. I keep it off the internet, so its not like my internet is slowing down during peak hours (which is doesn't). My internet is a consistent 190Mbps down as much as DirecTV CSRs would like to convince me otherwise .

Do you see slowness in the UI say mornings or afternoons?


----------



## CraigerM

I was wrong and I had my HR-44 lockup last night. I had to reboot it twice and then got a 775 message. The power inserter has a green light. Its working now. The SWM 16 went bad before and we recently had that replaced.


----------



## Rich

SledgeHammer said:


> I keep my HR24 pretty empty too since I tend to watch stuff quickly. I believe the hardware is fine for what it is. The software "in general" seems fine too. To me, it seems like some background task is going on in the evenings that is causing the UI to slow to a crawl. Mornings / afternoons / late nights it seems fine. Wouldn't call it super fast, but definitely don't see the 15 second UI lockups during the "fast times". For me, in California, the box becomes unusable 5pm to 6pm'ish on an almost daily basis. I keep it off the internet, so its not like my internet is slowing down during peak hours (which is doesn't). My internet is a consistent 190Mbps down as much as DirecTV CSRs would like to convince me otherwise .
> 
> *Do you see slowness in the UI say mornings or afternoons?*


See it all the time on some 24s and the 44. The 24-500 I use occasionally seems fine, the 24-100 I just put in service is very quick and I've had no problems with it. Maybe it's just old, large HDDs in the wonkey HRs that are causing the problems. Nah, I still think it's the software.

Rich


----------



## 1953

Glad I changed my mind about upgrading from our trusty HR44 to the HS17. Brings back memories of DTV's problem plagued transition to HD receivers. I'll set on the sidelines until the HS17's bugs are exterminated.

Good luck to all.


----------



## Rich

1953 said:


> Glad I changed my mind about upgrading from our trusty HR44 to the HS17. *Brings back memories of DTV's problem plagued transition to HD receivers*. I'll set on the sidelines until the HS17's bugs are exterminated.
> 
> Good luck to all.


That was a nightmare. I wouldn't take a new model HR (or HS) until I was sure they had it working correctly. Of course that might take...forever?

Rich


----------



## HoTat2

Rich said:


> That was a nightmare. I wouldn't take a new model HR (or HS) until I was sure they had it working correctly. Of course that might take...forever?
> 
> Rich


And even before HD in the SD era, I remember DIRECTV's first foray into producing their own in-house DVRs period, with the model R15-500 was a disaster as well and had all kinds of problems performing even the most rudimentary of common DVR functions.

DIRECTV was frantically sending down FW updates trying to deal with all the customer complaints and how many were saying they were glad they decided to stay with the various the TIVO based DIRECTV DVRs (or "DTIVOs").

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

Rich said:


> That was a nightmare. I wouldn't take a new model HR (or HS) until I was sure they had it working correctly. Of course that might take...forever?
> 
> Rich


How would you define "working correctly"? They might have everything working perfectly, then do an update and break something you depend on. If you want stability, using obsolete equipment that rarely or never gets firmware updates is the way go. Of course, then you have to worry about the age of equipment.

The software on my H20s hasn't been updated in almost four years, so I don't have to worry about Directv breaking something, but they are 10+ years old now, so eventually they'll start failing.

We know a new GUI is coming next year to the HS17, and maybe the other Genies as well. Who knows how long it'll take to get that stable...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I remember Santa Clause.


----------



## Rich

HoTat2 said:


> And even before HD in the SD era, I remember DIRECTV's first foray into producing their own in-house DVRs period, with the model R15-500 was a disaster as well and had all kinds of problems performing even the most rudimentary of common DVR functions.
> 
> *DIRECTV was frantically sending down FW updates* trying to deal with all the customer complaints and how many were saying they were glad they decided to stay with the various the TIVO based DIRECTV DVRs (or "DTIVOs").
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


They were frantically sending me HR20-100s, one after another. None of them worked, all were activated and then sent back (after being deactivated). It was a terrible experience. And the NRs, one after another too. They didn't work well either.

Rich


----------



## Rich

TheRatPatrol said:


> I remember Santa Clause.


BTW, I want to thank you for being so strong on the 650 Harmony remote, I like the one I bought.

Rich


----------



## rrbhokies

Bill Broderick said:


> Enter "30SKIP" in the search screen and press the red button.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


With a Genie 2 and let's say 5 clients, if I enter 30SKIP from my client in my office, does that activate it across all clients, or will my wife still be able to use "slip" from her client? Today we have multiple DVRs, so each of us can have our own preferences. I just don't know if the 30SKIP is stored on the client or on the Genie 2.


----------



## Rich

rrbhokies said:


> With a Genie 2 and let's say 5 clients, if I enter 30SKIP from my client in my office, does that activate it across all clients, or will my wife still be able to use "slip" from her client? Today we have multiple DVRs, so each of us can have our own preferences. I just don't know if the 30SKIP is stored on the client or on the Genie 2.


Not sure about that, never understood why folks would give up a DVR for a "client", but I can't help but think you have to set each mini for the skip or slip.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

rrbhokies said:


> With a Genie 2 and let's say 5 clients, if I enter 30SKIP from my client in my office, does that activate it across all clients, or will my wife still be able to use "slip" from her client? Today we have multiple DVRs, so each of us can have our own preferences. I just don't know if the 30SKIP is stored on the client or on the Genie 2.


Each is separate.


----------



## inkahauts

rrbhokies said:


> With a Genie 2 and let's say 5 clients, if I enter 30SKIP from my client in my office, does that activate it across all clients, or will my wife still be able to use "slip" from her client? Today we have multiple DVRs, so each of us can have our own preferences. I just don't know if the 30SKIP is stored on the client or on the Genie 2.


Each is separate.


----------



## compnurd

Rich said:


> Not sure about that, never understood why folks would give up a DVR for a "client", but I can't help but think you have to set each mini for the skip or slip.
> 
> Rich


Because the HR24 is a dinosaur


----------



## studechip

compnurd said:


> Because the HR24 is a dinosaur


Mine works fine. Most do I'm sure.


----------



## CraigerM

How much longer before DTV just sends out client boxes as replacements for the HR-24, H-24 and the H-25?


----------



## studechip

CraigerM said:


> How much longer before DTV just sends out client boxes as replacements for the HR-24, H-24 and the H-25?


I'm not sure they can since they are supposed to replace with a like product.


----------



## CraigerM

studechip said:


> I'm not sure they can since they are supposed to replace with a like product.


Sorry, I should have added when the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 would not be able to be refurbished anymore?


----------



## DukeBlue

CraigerM said:


> Sorry, I should have added when the HR-24, H-24 and H-25 would not be able to be refurbished anymore?


I hope by then they will have a new genie mini/lite DVR ready to go. While the HR24 may be old it still works fine for me. Watching programs from it on my HR54 it doesn't have any lag with trick play like the C61k does for me.


----------



## codespy

studechip said:


> I'm not sure they can since they are supposed to replace with a like product.


AT&T will probably "upgrade" you to a HR34 once the 24's are depleted.


----------



## compnurd

They are not taking 24's back anymore when you deactivate


----------



## studechip

compnurd said:


> They are not taking 24's back anymore when you deactivate


They were recovering HR24-500s until a few months ago. That may have changed or it may be regional.


----------



## carl6

codespy said:


> AT&T will probably "upgrade" you to a HR34 once the 24's are depleted.


The good news is they are not issuing HR34s anymore.



compnurd said:


> They are not taking 24's back anymore when you deactivate


They may not be recovering them, but do be aware that does not make them owned. Once deactivated they are pretty much useless to anyone else (you can't sell them for example). If you hold on to a deactivated DVR and later want to re-activate it, you should be able to (unless you get an HS17, in which case no other receiver or DVR is permitted on the account, only clients).


----------



## dpeters11

They still might be taking them if there's an installer involved swapping out a box or upgrading the system.


----------



## James Long

Electronics recycling is a good idea. If the receiver cannot be redeployed it can be recycled.


----------



## HoTat2

I just replaced a bad HR24 for another 2 weeks ago which was dropped-shipped to me ...

But now two reps. said they are sending out a return kit for the old one, so I assumed the HR24s were still recoverable.

Thing is the kit still hasn't arrived yet after each time a week has past since telling me it's been sent out ....

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


----------



## machavez00

carl6 said:


> The good news is they are not issuing HR34s anymore.


That's good news. My HR34 has issues when trying to watch SD channels and need to get it replaced. Are they sending out 44's or 54's?


----------



## CraigerM

machavez00 said:


> That's good news. My HR34 has issues when trying to watch SD channels and need to get it replaced. Are they sending out 44's or 54's?


Some are saying that the HR-54 is for 4k installs only. However, I wonder since the HS-17 is coming out could you get the HR-54 as a replacement for the HR-44?


----------



## 1953

*Rain Fade with no Rain*

HR-44. We are consistently noticing minor to moderator rain fade artifacts during DVR playback. Is this a DVR, HDMI or HDTV problem? In stead of DIY maintenance should I go ahead and call DTV?

Thank you.


----------



## 1953

Anyone notice HS-17 good/bad write-ups on simple DVR/Two Client installations?


----------



## jimmie57

1953 said:


> *Rain Fade with no Rain*
> 
> HR-44. We are consistently noticing minor to moderator rain fade artifacts during DVR playback. Is this a DVR, HDMI or HDTV problem? In stead of DIY maintenance should I go ahead and call DTV?
> 
> Thank you.


I live south of you and have had more rain fade already this year than most full years of TV. This is because I have had more rain than I can remember. I installed a weather station in April, 18 this year. I have already had 32.2 inches of rain since then.
Most likely your recordings were recorded when you were not watching the TV and rain interfered.
Look at the Satellite strength screen and see what your strength reading are on the 99 and 103 sates ( skip the ones with an (s) behind the number. They should be high 80's to mid 90's.


----------



## carl6

1953 said:


> Anyone notice HS-17 good/bad write-ups on simple DVR/Two Client installations?


I have an HS17 with two clients and am very happy with it.

The only negative comments I've seen, in general, about the HS17 is with regard to not permitting any other type of receiver or DVR on your account at the same time. The arguments on that point are two-fold. One, it limits the total number of tuners you can have available to record (to 7), and two, you are "putting all your eggs in one basket", single point of failure. Should the HS17 itself fail, you lose all your recordings and your ability to view television. Both tend to be arguments by "power users", and do not reflect the typical customer. However, if either of those are important considerations to you, then take that into consideration.

The HS17 has not been in service long enough (years) to see it's failure rate over time. Mine is one of the initial test units, and has been in service probably as long as any HS17, and I've had no problems.


----------



## 1953

jimmie57 said:


> I live south of you and have had more rain fade already this year than most full years of TV. This is because I have had more rain than I can remember. I installed a weather station in April, 18 this year. I have already had 32.2 inches of rain since then.
> Most likely your recordings were recorded when you were not watching the TV and rain interfered.
> Look at the Satellite strength screen and see what your strength reading are on the 99 and 103 sates ( skip the ones with an (s) behind the number. They should be high 80's to mid 90's.


Good idea yet it was not raining when the specific shows had rain fade.


----------



## slice1900

1953 said:


> Good idea yet it was not raining when the specific shows had rain fade.


If it wasn't raining and there weren't any dark clouds to the south then what you had wasn't rain fade. It may be a bad LNB or cabling, or may be a defect in the HR44.

What are your signal strengths reported for 99ca, 99cb, 103ca, and 103cb?


----------



## 1953

99ca
1-8 n/a

9-16 92 92 94 93 94 93 95 93

7-24 95 94 95 95 95 95 95 95

25-32 n/a

99cb
1-8 92 88 92 89 89 86 92 90

9-16 89 88 94 92 95 94 n/a n/a

17-24 n/a

25-42 n/a

103ca
1-8 n/a

9-16 95 95 94 91 94 94 91 91 90

17-24 93 93 95 92 95 94 92 95 95

25-32 n/a

103cb
1-8 95 94 91 88 91 91 90 88

9-16 92 92 90 91 92 92 n/a n/a

17-24 n/a

25-32 n/a


----------



## Rich

1953 said:


> Good idea yet it was not raining when the specific shows had rain fade.


It doesn't have to be raining on top of your house, it can be caused by a nearby storm that blocks the signal.

Rich


----------



## P Smith

and the thread about HS17, not a rain fade nor hr44


----------



## AngryManMLS

Has anyone tried to use the AM21 to see if it really does not work with the HS17? Or could I at least still hook the AM21 to the C61 unit for at least OTA viewing?


----------



## HoTat2

AngryManMLS said:


> Has anyone tried to use the AM21 to see if it really does not work with the HS17? Or could I at least still hook the AM21 to the C61 unit for at least OTA viewing?


To your first question, yes the AM21 has been tried on the HS17. And no, it's been confirmed not to work. The HS17 doesn't even detect it when plugged into its USB port on boot-up or in any other way.

And no to your 2nd question as well. You can't hook an AM21 to a client ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## 1953

Whenever we move to the HS17 my plan is to use an interior HD antenna for the 40 plus local stations in the Dallas area. Our Harmony Elite is already programed to make all necessary changes to view those channels. In many areas, an outdoor HD antenna may be necessary. If you need detail connection instructions I will gladly assist you. I really hate to lose the AM17.


----------



## carl6

It is easy to set up an antenna to get off-air stations on your TV. What I miss is the convenience of having them integrated into the guide, and more important, ability to record them (on the same DVR as everything else). Switching inputs to the TV tuner, and having to watch live, makes OTA "inconvenient" at best. Certainly available if sat goes out for any length of time (days as opposed to minutes).


----------



## 1953

Well stated but a necessity with the HS17. That is one of the reasons we are in not hurry to freely upgrade to the HS17.


----------



## P Smith

1953 said:


> HD antenna


it's just OTA antenna, Carl !


----------



## P Smith

1953 said:


> hate to lose the AM17


something new ! what is this ? new OTA tuner ?


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> something new ! what is this ? new OTA tuner ?


Typo for sure ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## 1953

Re AM17
Should have been AM21/AMN21


----------



## HoTat2

1953 said:


> Re AM17
> Should have been AM21/AMN21


Or that's actually "AM21/AM21N" ... 

Yes, the codes and model numbers can be maddening ....

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## CTJon

When I recently looked at new TV's many of them now don't have OTA tuners or connections any more. Making it more difficult to just put up an antenna. Maybe with "cord cutters" this will be reversed but when I looked a bunch didn't have.
Just a question - the reason you don't want to DTV version of the locals is that DTV doesn't carry the whole selection or what am I missing?


----------



## P Smith

CTJon said:


> When I recently looked at new TV's many of them now don't have OTA tuners or connections any more.


hard to believe - TV without a tuner ? that's a MONITOR, not a TV

in Europe I see all TV have OTA tuner [DVB-T2] and some also DVB-S2 sat tuner, plus they do support PVR functions if a user will connect own HDD to USB port


----------



## Reggie3

I think Vizio dropped tuners last year in their TVs. My Sony 940D has a great guide for OTA stations.


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> hard to believe - TV without a tuner ? that's a MONITOR, not a TV
> 
> in Europe I see all TV have OTA tuner [DVB-T2] and some also DVB-S2 sat tuner, plus they do support PVR functions if a user will connect own HDD to USB port


They are allowed to sell them without a tuner so long as they sell them as a 'display' rather than as a TV. Visio advertisers theirs as "tuner free", trying to make it a positive.

Personally I'd prefer to be able to buy a plain display. No tuner, no 'smart'! The TVs being sold today have tuners that will be obsolete in a few years, at least for some purposes, since ATSC 3.0 is coming. And 'smart TV' functionality is a total ripoff, they charge you more for it but don't support it for more than a year or two after sale meaning it is all worthless 4-5 years down the road when the TV itself has plenty of life left in it.


----------



## Reggie3

slice1900 said:


> They are allowed to sell them without a tuner so long as they sell them as a 'display' rather than as a TV. Visio advertisers theirs as "tuner free", trying to make it a positive.
> 
> Personally I'd prefer to be able to buy a plain display. No tuner, no 'smart'! The TVs being sold today have tuners that will be obsolete in a few years, at least for some purposes, since ATSC 3.0 is coming. And 'smart TV' functionality is a total ripoff, they charge you more for it but don't support it for more than a year or two after sale meaning it is all worthless 4-5 years down the road when the TV itself has plenty of life left in it.


totally agree


----------



## carl6

P Smith said:


> it's just OTA antenna, Carl !


Oh I know. I use a roughly 6" stub of coax center conductor (UHF 1/4 wave) as my OTA antenna.


----------



## specialkd24

I just got my installed this morning (after previously having a HR34) and haven't had much time to interact with it since I had to go to work.

I guess I didn't realize the HS17 doesn't have the new ESPN app. Is that correct or am I missing something? Why is that and is there any talk of it eventually getting it?


----------



## guitarguy316

specialkd24 said:


> I just got my installed this morning (after previously having a HR34) and haven't had much time to interact with it since I had to go to work.
> 
> I guess I didn't realize the HS17 doesn't have the new ESPN app. Is that correct or am I missing something? Why is that and is there any talk of it eventually getting it?


ah, that would be a bummer if there's no espn3 connectivity.

i'll also post this here in case there's more views than the c61 thread:

I just had an HS17 installed yesterday with (2) C61K clients and (1) C61. I am having an issue with the C61K on two settings not saving/resetting:

1) I have set everything to my preferences, which is to send native signal to tv. However, I purposefully unchecked 1080i for personal reasons and hit save. Yet every time I turn the client off and back on it defaults back to all resolutions checked.

2) I changed the non 16:9 channels to use "black" for the side bars. However, after I change and leave that setting screen, it defaults back to "grey" every time.

Any thoughts here? I have unplugged the client and plugged it back in. It looks like all my clients and HS17 updated to latest firmware yesterday as well.


----------



## jonneil

Please help. I have scheduled to have the genie 2(hs-17) installed next weekend, and I am having second thoughts if I should. I have3 tv's, and all are connected to their own dvr boxes. Only one tv is 4K capable. The issue I'm having is on one tv I have a Vulkano flow (similar to a slingbox) hooked up to the receiver via component cables. If I upgrade, I don't think I can have dual hdmi/component outputs running at the same time off the client. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## P Smith

look at HR54 alternative


----------



## Grafixguy

jonneil said:


> Please help. I have scheduled to have the genie 2(hs-17) installed next weekend, and I am having second thoughts if I should. I have3 tv's, and all are connected to their own dvr boxes. Only one tv is 4K capable. The issue I'm having is on one tv I have a Vulkano flow (similar to a slingbox) hooked up to the receiver via component cables. If I upgrade, I don't think I can have dual hdmi/component outputs running at the same time off the client. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


I have a wireless client hooked up to a Slingbox via component and to a TV via HDMI with a Genie 2.


----------



## jonneil

Grafixguy said:


> I have a wireless client hooked up to a Slingbox via component and to a TV via HDMI with a Genie 2.


Do you know what model wireless client you are using to do this?


----------



## Grafixguy

AFAIK, the C41W is the only wireless client.


----------



## compnurd

Grafixguy said:


> AFAIK, the C41W is the only wireless client.


There is a 
*C61W-700* But i dont know of anyone ever getting one


----------



## jonneil

Grafixguy said:


> AFAIK, the C41W is the only wireless client.


I looked up that number, and it says that it works with hr54 and older models. What model genie do you use?


----------



## HoTat2

jonneil said:


> I looked up that number, and it says that it works with hr54 and older models. What model genie do you use?


They will work with the HS17 as well ...

The only issue is, from my understanding you can only stream up to 5 clients simultaneously for all models C51 and below since they are only MoCA 1.1 capable.

To reach the HS17's full 7 simultaneous stream capability though, at least 2 of the 7 clients must be C61s or C61Ks which are MoCA 2.0 capable.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## Grafixguy

jonneil said:


> I looked up that number, and it says that it works with hr54 and older models. What model genie do you use?


I have an HS17. I've got two wireless clients and two 4K clients. Everything works quite nicely.


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> C61s


ummm ... I don't see at RedH site a FW spooling for such model ...


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> ummm ... I don't see at RedH site a FW spooling for such model ...


Well I don't understand ...

Was this model cancelled or something?

C61 Set Top Box MoCA client with integrated RF4CE wireless remote ID Label/Location Info Label Pace Americas

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## lzhj9k

I ordered and received several of the C61's and a couple of C61K's in anticipation of converting to an HS17 in the near future (Wanted MoCa 2.0)

I too have not seen firmware on RedH

Also have not seen a C61W I would replace my C41W too


----------



## HoTat2

lzhj9k said:


> I ordered and received several of the C61's and a couple of C61K's in anticipation of converting to an HS17 in the near future (Wanted MoCa 2.0)
> 
> I too have not seen firmware on RedH
> 
> Also have not seen a C61W I would replace my C41W too


This is what I thought ...

I wonder if there's a mistake on the FW Watcher site and the "C61W" should be labeled only as "C61?"

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

FWIW, no fewer than FOUR models of C61 and two of C61W show up on the RVU alliance site:

Existing Products | RVU Alliance

Why they don't show up on redh, who knows? Maybe the redh site owner has to enable new hardware to show up rather than just showing whatever is in the spool, to avoid giving away secrets when new hardware is being tested. He might have forgot to add C61 and C61W, perhaps?


----------



## inkahauts

specialkd24 said:


> I just got my installed this morning (after previously having a HR34) and haven't had much time to interact with it since I had to go to work.
> 
> I guess I didn't realize the HS17 doesn't have the new ESPN app. Is that correct or am I missing something? Why is that and is there any talk of it eventually getting it?


Saw the new espn app on the AppleTV, having it on the DIRECTV boxes is eh.... the new app lets you split screens and such in some really neat ways..


----------



## codespy

HoTat2 said:


> This is what I thought ...
> 
> I wonder if there's a mistake on the FW Watcher site and the "C61W" should be labeled only as "C61?"
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


I just hooked up my sister with DirecTV 2 weeks ago after she moved by me 2 months ago. She got a HR54-700 with 4 clients, all of which are C61-500's MF'd on 3/4/2017. I have pics of it. She was supposed to get a 4K client in the deal, so called on her behalf today and they are scheduling a truck roll this Tuesday to replace one of the C61's for a C61K for her 4K TV, at no charge whatsoever since she is in the 30 day installation window.

I have not seen or heard of a C61W in the wild, however, Arris has a C61W-700 listed on the UL directory.

From the FCC website: C61-500 Client Receiver External Photos External Photos Humax Co., Ltd.


----------



## codespy

slice1900 said:


> FWIW, no fewer than FOUR models of C61 and two of C61W show up on the RVU alliance site:
> 
> Existing Products | RVU Alliance
> 
> Why they don't show up on redh, who knows? Maybe the redh site owner has to enable new hardware to show up rather than just showing whatever is in the spool, to avoid giving away secrets when new hardware is being tested. He might have forgot to add C61 and C61W, perhaps?


They might still be working on things.....
OET List Exhibits Report (Click Confid Ltr)


----------



## slice1900

I would assume a C61W supports 802.11ac beamforming like the HS17, so it might be more desirable for those who want more distance between them. With older Genies it probably doesn't matter over a C41W (other than perhaps being a bit faster)


----------



## 1953

How do you users learn all this stuff?...........really do not expect an answer........


----------



## dod1450

1953 said:


> How do you users learn all this stuff?...........really do not expect an answer........


 I have wonder about that?


----------



## slice1900

Stuff like that is in FCC filings that any device that broadcats on public airwaves (like wifi, in this case) must file with the government.


----------



## carl6

1953 said:


> How do you users learn all this stuff?...........really do not expect an answer........


Actually a variety of ways. When a new product that does anything with RF is developed, it has to be submitted to the FCC for type acceptance/approval, and you can normally access the information submitted to the FCC, which includes a lot of engineering data, sometimes spec sheets and other technical information. That is one very common way people learn this stuff (about a particular product).

Sometimes, information is provided by DirecTV engineering to alpha or beta testers that can be shared (and sometimes that can't be shared). That is an infrequent way people learn this stuff.

Sometimes, when you are talking about common technologies such as 802.11 variations, it is standard industry knowledge. If DirecTV releases a product that conforms to 802.11 whatever, then the technical information behind that will conform to a standard.

Sometimes people just learn if from reading forums like this.

Add it all together, and you've got a pretty powerful bulk of technological information available.


----------



## 1953

I have learned so much great information from this and other AV forums. Thank you.


----------



## specialkd24

inkahauts said:


> Saw the new espn app on the AppleTV, having it on the DIRECTV boxes is eh.... the new app lets you split screens and such in some really neat ways..


I usually watch WatchESPN on my computer (second screen), but sometimes if it is a really big game of my favorite team I'll use AppleTV (although I have the older version) or Roku.

I was just looking forward to having it on DirecTV, meaning not having to get up to turn the AppleTV on and the input on my TV (and flip back if I'm going to watch another game not on WatchESPN).

I read one review that said it was coming eventually. Not sure if that was a guess or the person had actual knowledge.


----------



## P Smith

specialkd24 said:


> I usually watch WatchESPN on my computer (second screen), but sometimes if it is a really big game of my favorite team I'll use AppleTV (although I have the older version) or Roku.
> 
> I was just looking forward to having it on DirecTV, meaning not having to get up to turn the AppleTV on and the input on my TV (and flip back if I'm going to watch another game not on WatchESPN).
> 
> I read one review that said it was coming eventually. Not sure if that was a guess or the person had actual knowledge.


you are going offtopic ... please open a new thread about AppleTV, ESPN,etc


----------



## inkahauts

1953 said:


> How do you users learn all this stuff?...........really do not expect an answer........


Time energy reading and playing with it.

You kind of learn things as you go and build up more info on how it all works over time. I've learned a ton from this website alone about the technical capabilities and how things work for satelites years ago, and then it's just a matter of learning what's new and how things are evolving.


----------



## Brad00111

I'm sure these are answered somewhere in the 1800 posts here (maybe we can close this thread and start a new one?) but I had a few questions:

1) With 7 total tuners I'm guessing if you are watching on one or more TVs this takes away a tuner so 2 TVs on would leave 5 available for recording correct? If so do you get a conflict message if the unit needs another tuner to record a scheduled show?

2) if you are going completely wired do the minis need an Ethernet connection at each of them in addition to the coax or if the HS17 has an Ethernet connection is that all that's required?

3) what is the most straightforward way to use an external drive for storage? Do you find the external drives more reliable than the one in the equipment?

4) you are limited to 100 series recordings correct?

Thanks for the help!


----------



## longrider

Brad00111 said:


> I'm sure these are answered somewhere in the 1800 posts here (maybe we can close this thread and start a new one?) but I had a few questions:
> 
> 1) With 7 total tuners I'm guessing if you are watching on one or more TVs this takes away a tuner so 2 TVs on would leave 5 available for recording correct? If so do you get a conflict message if the unit needs another tuner to record a scheduled show? Your first assumption is correct. I do not have one myself so I am guessing on the second part but the logic has always been to change the channel on a live program unless you actively say no, cancel the recording.
> 
> 2) if you are going completely wired do the minis need an Ethernet connection at each of them in addition to the coax or if the HS17 has an Ethernet connection is that all that's required? The minis just use the coax. Only the server needs an Ethernet connection
> 
> 3) what is the most straightforward way to use an external drive for storage? Do you find the external drives more reliable than the one in the equipment? Standard eSata either in a housing or a drive dock. I dont see it as any more reliable but you can go much larger. I have heard of up to 14TB being used successfully
> 
> 4) you are limited to 100 series recordings correct? Unfortunately, yes
> 
> Thanks for the help!


----------



## Brad00111

Thank you for the quick answers!


----------



## carl6

Wired involves coax run to the client location, not ethernet.
Use eSata for external drive. HS17 hasn't been around long enough to see hard drive failures, so can't tell you if internal or external would be more reliable.
Yes, 100 series links.


----------



## inkahauts

One note on the tuners... minis do not use any tuners when they are watching a recording... so only an issue if you are watching live tv. And if you are like me and record everything you watch then there are no issues.


----------



## JimAtTheRez

carl6 said:


> It is easy to set up an antenna to get off-air stations on your TV. What I miss is the convenience of having them integrated into the guide, and more important, ability to record them (on the same DVR as everything else). Switching inputs to the TV tuner, and having to watch live, makes OTA "inconvenient" at best. Certainly available if sat goes out for any length of time (days as opposed to minutes).


^^^This for me may be the deal breaker. I had my HS17 installed Friday and quite honestly did not know what I was getting. Shame on me. I should have read this forum. Losing AM21, Available tuners from 15 to 7, recording space down to 2TB, down to 100 series links from 600, and the fact that the RC73 remotes won't do as many functions as the RC66 series all lead me to probably switch back to my old format of a Genie and 5 HD DVR's. Again, shame on me as a customer for assuming what I was told by a CSR was what I understood. Again, read this forum before committing.


----------



## inkahauts

If you actually need all that ability then yeah the hs17 just isn’t a solution. I keep hopping they will get rid of the series link limit. That would really fix the majority of the issues though since cable shows are on multiple times a week.


----------



## Brad00111

inkahauts said:


> If you actually need all that ability then yeah the hs17 just isn't a solution. I keep hopping they will get rid of the series link limit. That would really fix the majority of the issues though since cable shows are on multiple times a week.


Agreed. Probably the biggest factor for me not to switch. I have an HR-44 and 2 HR-24s with 2 4K TVs. I just picked up an Onkyo NR656 to get ready for 4K in anticipation of more options in the coming months/years.

I'm not sure we ever have more than 7 shows recording at once, but we often do have 4 or 5, so the tuner drop shouldn't be too bad, but hell we have well over 100 series links when you add them all up, why they limit these seems silly, but until that gets fixed guess I'm stuck where I'm at.


----------



## compnurd

Well now my contract is up and I can get the HS-17 from solid signal now. Decisions decisions. Any more user feedback?


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

FWIW - my wife LOVES the HS-17. I call her the "program director" - she does most of the recording set-ups, and loves the fact that all upcoming recordings are listed in one place. I can't tell you how often we used to find the exact same show recorded 3 times - one on each DVR.

I also love the ability to copy one client's setting to another client. Makes for favorites list coordination easy. Quick tune too. And the remote response is MUCH better with the client/server setup.

And, I swear the PQ is better. I've been with D* for 21 years, and I'm not subject to hype or placebo effect on this sort of thing. If PQ was the same/worse, I'd have said so. PS - the program director wife agrees with me.


----------



## CraigerM

Can you save your free upgrade for later? I wonder about waiting until more


wilbur_the_goose said:


> FWIW - my wife LOVES the HS-17. I call her the "program director" - she does most of the recording set-ups, and loves the fact that all upcoming recordings are listed in one place. I can't tell you how often we used to find the exact same show recorded 3 times - one on each DVR.
> 
> I also love the ability to copy one client's setting to another client. Makes for favorites list coordination easy. Quick tune too. And the remote response is MUCH better with the client/server setup.
> 
> And, I swear the PQ is better. I've been with D* for 21 years, and I'm not subject to hype or placebo effect on this sort of thing. If PQ was the same/worse, I'd have said so. PS - the program director wife agrees with me.


Could be that the HS-17 has a better video processor in it than the HR-54?


----------



## Delroy E Walleye

I would think that video processing and PQ would be up to the client ( and not the "headless" HS17 itself).

For what it's worth, I have an old HR21 that puts out a noticeably better picture than the HR44. Not a stretch for me to believe there could be quality differences between the outputs of different clients.


----------



## slice1900

Yeah the HS17 would have nothing to do with picture quality, it is just passing the data received from the satellite on to the client, which is converting to what gets spit out the HDMI port to your TV. Clients were made more recently than HR2x DVRs, so maybe they're a little better at slightly massaging the picture during that process to make it look better (smoothing compression artifacts, etc.)

Alternatively, it could be that around the same time you got the HS17 Directv upgraded the PQ of some of the channels you regularly watch, via encoder upgrades or the moving around of channels between transponders they're always doing giving them more bandwidth.


----------



## CraigerM

I noticed an improvement with PQ letting my Sony 4k TV's processor do the work instead of the HR-44's by setting native to on.


----------



## P Smith

CraigerM said:


> I noticed an improvement with PQ letting my Sony 4k TV's processor do the work instead of the HR-44's by setting native to on.


So, how we should apply the info to the thread about HS17 ?

I'm not sure if you telling about 1080i or 720p video processing...


----------



## CraigerM

P Smith said:


> So, how we should apply the info to the thread about HS17 ?
> 
> I'm not sure if you telling about 1080i or 720p video processing...


Sorry, I should have added that maybe the HS-17 still has the native on and off setting?


----------



## slice1900

There's two kinds of processing receivers/clients can do. There's the processing of taking the MPEG4 compressed HD picture and uncompressing it to deliver HDMI output at 720p or 1080i, and there's the scaling of a 720p or 1080i picture if you have only one of those checked (which IMHO you should NOT do, either both should be checked or you should enable native mode)

There's nothing you can do about the quality of the uncompression, because the only way to have something other than Directv equipment perform that step is if you have an RVU TV. There should be no difference in image quality for 720p or 1080i HD content between having both 720p and 1080i checked, and native mode, because either way the receiver will pass the same data out the HDMI port. Further massaging may improve that picture slightly, but that's more difficult to do than doing it right during the uncompression.

Note I'm talking about HD channels, HD receivers/clients, HDTVs. Bringing 4K equipment into the mix complicates things further, but the same basic rules apply.


----------



## ROK5TAR

CraigerM said:


> Sorry, I should have added that maybe the HS-17 still has the native on and off setting?


Hs-17 doesn't hook up to tv so it has nothing


----------



## CraigerM

ROK5TAR said:


> Hs-17 doesn't hook up to tv so it has nothing


I know it doesn't hook up to the TV, but would the HS-17 still have the native setting in its software so you could still change that setting from the client box? Or did they take it out with HS-17?


----------



## carl6

There is a Native on/off setting on the HS17. My assumption is it controls the client, not the HS17 itself (I haven't verified, but I assume you can set one location to native on and another to native off, which would be client based).


----------



## P Smith

HS17 or any genie sending out to clients a transport stream (partial) eg compressed video/audio PIDs - so what you are asking is part of decompression VPID packets and feeding TV eg pure client's task

PS. after reading a post above - HS17 could keep settings what clients FW could use later


----------



## 1953

P Smith said:


> HS17 or any genie sending out to clients a transport stream (partial) eg compressed video/audio PIDs - so what you are asking is part of decompression VPID packets and feeding TV eg pure client's task
> 
> PS. after reading a post above - HS17 could keep settings what clients FW could use later


Please translate this into dumbass speak.


----------



## 1953

As I get ready to reposition our 1080p AV components I'll ask one last time is the HS17, at this point in time, a worthy replacement for our 1080p HR44 genie with one upstairs bedroom client? No 4K at this time. I have a free upgrade available.

I lied, here is a another question. My PC and Uverse Internet stuff is upstairs. The HR44 is down stairs in the living room. The bedroom client is hardwired to the HR44. With that in mind, would it be advantageous for the HS17 to be upstairs near the Uverse router with a DTV cable running to the upstairs client and on or another cable following the same cable path to the downstairs new client (old HR44 location)?

Btw. I going to solve the loss of the AM21 by installing a HD antenna then using our Harmony Elite to handle all the necessary switching. We only use the - channels during rain fade. DTV picks up all local stations and I assume that will continue with the HS17.


----------



## ROK5TAR

1953 said:


> As I get ready to reposition our 1080p AV components I'll ask one last time is the HS17, at this point in time, a worthy replacement for our 1080p HR44 genie with one upstairs bedroom client? No 4K at this time. I have a free upgrade available.
> 
> I lied, here is a another question. My PC and Uverse Internet stuff is upstairs. The HR44 is down stairs in the living room. The bedroom client is hardwired to the HR44. With that in mind, would it be advantageous for the HS17 to be upstairs near the Uverse router with a DTV cable running to the upstairs client and on or another cable following the same cable path to the downstairs new client (old HR44 location)?
> 
> Btw. I going to solve the loss of the AM21 by installing a HD antenna then using our Harmony Elite to handle all the necessary switching. We only use the - channels during rain fade. DTV picks up all local stations and I assume that will continue with the HS17.


No unless you want more recording capability and storage. You can put the hs-17 upstairs or downstairs doesn't matter. 2 way splitter would work for client and hs-17 on same line. Upstairs would be best so you can run Ethernet from router


----------



## inkahauts

If you only have two tvs, I would probably do the upgrade, and put the hs17 by the router and the two clients at the tvs of course. Just me.


----------



## guitarguy316

Does the espn3 app or whatever work on the hs17?


----------



## inkahauts

Not as of right now. I think it will someday, but who knows.

If you have a AppleTV, use that anyway, it has some neat features on it for espn..


----------



## Reggie3

guitarguy316 said:


> Does the espn3 app or whatever work on the hs17?


Get a Roku


----------



## PhilS

Upgraded to an HS17 and two C61Ks from an HR44 and HR24 on Thursday. Had an infancy failure on one C61K after about 6 hours after the tech left. Called DirecTV Friday and had a replacement shipped FEDEX. It arrived Monday. Instructions in the box talked about using a pin # to activate - clearly obsolete documentation for the HS17. The online activation does not work. You need to talk to an agent to activate a replacement. Over an hour wait times due to high call volume from hurricane Irma.

Technician who installed the equipment insisted I needed another splitter and a DECA for the Internet connection, even though the Ethernet port was only one feet from the HS17. Either he is wrong or the DirecTV training videos for the HS17 are wrong:











I removed the DECA connection and plugged it in directly to the Ethernet Port after he left. No problems with video download.


----------



## Kapeman

Just got the HS-17 offer to replace my HR-34 and my two HR-24s.

Any reason not to? 

Thanks!


----------



## carl6

To replace an HR34, I would absolutely go for it. Only minor consideration is how you use your HR24s. With the HS17 (and clients), you won't have separate recordings, todo lists, etc., like you have with the 34 and 24s. Everything will be on one common LIST. But the 17 is far superior to the HR34, far.


----------



## Kapeman

carl6 said:


> To replace an HR34, I would absolutely go for it. Only minor consideration is how you use your HR24s. With the HS17 (and clients), you won't have separate recordings, todo lists, etc., like you have with the 34 and 24s. Everything will be on one common LIST. But the 17 is far superior to the HR34, far.


Thanks for the info!


----------



## Bill Broderick

Kapeman said:


> Just got the HS-17 offer to replace my HR-34 and my two HR-24s.
> 
> Any reason not to?
> 
> Thanks!


The downsides are that you'd go from 9 recordable tuners to 7 recordable tuners. You'd go from a total Series limit of 200 programs to 100 and the HS17 would become a single point of failure, meaning if it goes down, you will lose TV on all TV's in the house until the HS17 is replaced.

If none of these are concerns to you, then there is no reason not to accept the offer. If they are a concern, you could probably get your HR-34 upgraded to a 44 or 54 for free.


----------



## rbpeirce

This thread is getting too long and this may already have been answered. I am eligible for a free upgrade but in the past any saved recordings were lost. Is that still the case or is there now a way to transfer them? If not, I can't see any reason to do it.


----------



## MysteryMan

rbpeirce said:


> This thread is getting too long and this may already have been answered. I am eligible for a free upgrade but in the past any saved recordings were lost. Is that still the case or is there now a way to transfer them? If not, I can't see any reason to do it.


Recordings are encrypted to the DVR and cannot be transferred.


----------



## rbpeirce

I figured as much. Thanks.


----------



## P Smith

MysteryMan said:


> Recordings are encrypted to the DVR *by a key from smart card* and cannot be transferred.


added a clarification


----------



## AZ.

Bill Broderick said:


> The downsides are that you'd go from 9 recordable tuners to 7 recordable tuners. You'd go from a total Series limit of 200 programs to 100 and the HS17 would become a single point of failure, meaning if it goes down, you will lose TV on all TV's in the house until the HS17 is replaced.
> 
> If none of these are concerns to you, then there is no reason not to accept the offer. If they are a concern, you could probably get your HR-34 upgraded to a 44 or 54 for free.


This thinking confuses me?....When you vacation or go far away from home do you also worry about your car breaking down?....Things go wrong, often? No....Life is a gamble...If you lose your TV for 2 days will it kill you?.....Only thing that bugs me is the loss of recordings!

Sounds like looking at failer is looking at the glass half empty all the time?


----------



## millercentral

Just updated from a HR-54 and 2 (failing) HR24s to the Genie 2 and 3 C61K clients. So far, the family is really liking it. It feels much more responsive then the previous receivers, and the firmware the clients took a day or so after the install seem to have addressed the audio dropouts issue of the C61K clients. My wife really likes having all Recording management centralized, rather than having to go to different receivers to change recording options -- and the capacity and 100 show series cap is well above what we use.

One issue I haven't been able to figure out yet:

- My tablet DirecTV app which was registered as a mobile device on the system before the update still shows the old receivers in list and thinks it is "out of home" as a result. Does anyone know how to update the mobile app registration to the new installation? 

Thanks!


----------



## inkahauts

millercentral said:


> Just updated from a HR-54 and 2 (failing) HR24s to the Genie 2 and 3 C61K clients. So far, the family is really liking it. It feels much more responsive then the previous receivers, and the firmware the clients took a day or so after the install seem to have addressed the audio dropouts issue of the C61K clients. My wife really likes having all Recording management centralized, rather than having to go to different receivers to change recording options -- and the capacity and 100 show series cap is well above what we use.
> 
> One issue I haven't been able to figure out yet:
> 
> - My tablet DirecTV app which was registered as a mobile device on the system before the update still shows the old receivers in list and thinks it is "out of home" as a result. Does anyone know how to update the mobile app registration to the new installation?
> 
> Thanks!


You may need to delete the app wait a day and the reinstall it and then re pair it with your new genie 2.

You have just pointed out many of the great positives of this system that far outweighs the if it goes down you have no tv argument, since that may or may not ever happen. In a few years...


----------



## inkahauts

AZ. said:


> This thinking confuses me?....When you vacation or go far away from home do you also worry about your car breaking down?....Things go wrong, often? No....Life is a gamble...If you lose your TV for 2 days will it kill you?.....Only thing that bugs me is the loss of recordings!
> 
> Sounds like looking at failer is looking at the glass half empty all the time?


This is the common argument many use to say they do not like the genie 2. Personally, I will say the 100 series link is an issue, but the rest is just not logical to me either....


----------



## Bill Broderick

AZ. said:


> This thinking confuses me?....When you vacation or go far away from home do you also worry about your car breaking down?....


No. But, I do drive with a spare tire and jumper cables in my car. I also have a generator at my house to keep the electricity on when there is a power failure. While life may be a gamble, we do things to ameliorate the situation when unplanned things occur. As an IT professional, I'm not a big fan of single points of failure when they can easily be avoided.


----------



## patmurphey

It's silly to worry about single point of failure for an entertainment device. The DVR's hardly ever fail, but if one does, the short time you wait there is always streaming or, horrors, reading. It's even sillier to give up improvements over the issue. I happily replaced 2 Hoppers to get 4k, never ever to worry about conflicts, speed, sports bar, etc., with one Hopper3.


----------



## inkahauts

Bill Broderick said:


> No. But, I do drive with a spare tire and jumper cables in my car. I also have a generator at my house to keep the electricity on when there is a power failure. While life may be a gamble, we do things to ameliorate the situation when unplanned things occur. As an IT professional, I'm not a big fan of single points of failure when they can easily be avoided.


To me the spare tire is the equivalent of a blu ray player and or an appletv and over the air. Not having multiple DVRs. Just me.


----------



## J Blow

What's so hard about grasping a single point of failure versus an option that doesn't have a single point of failure? For example, no, most people don't skip vacations or any car travel out of fear for breaking down but if someone says, "hey, which car do you want....one that has X number of things that could go wrong that each render your vehicle completely useless or one that will allow you to continue driving unless all X number of things that could go wrong do so all at once?" One option is clearly better if you have any single care about not being stranded. If you don't care about being stranded then yes, one car offers nothing over the other. So, it's not about living worryfree, being glass half full, or even trying to decide what kills you if you are missing it...it's about choosing the best option for you based on what's important to you. Personally, I don't want to be without my TV for 2 days (even though I may not use it at all) but indicating one option holds no advantage over the other is a ponderous take - especially based on someone else's personal preferences. 

So, having a single point of failure and a just a single central unit of operation is a primary reason I've thought about using my upgrade on an HR54 while it's still available - versus having to take the HS17.


----------



## Bill Broderick

inkahauts said:


> To me the spare tire is the equivalent of a blu ray player and or an appletv and over the air. Not having multiple DVRs. Just me.


Disagree. The spare tire allows me to continue to do what I was doing before getting a flat (driving my car) and multiple DVR's allow me to continue to do what I was doing before one DVR died (watch DirecTV programming).

IMO, riding a bus for a few days, instead of driving my car after getting a flat tire, would be more consistent with watching Blu rays or streaming content from another source if my source of DirecTV programming died.


----------



## Bill Broderick

patmurphey said:


> It's silly to worry about single point of failure for an entertainment device. The DVR's hardly ever fail, but if one does, the short time you wait there is always streaming or, horrors, reading. It's even sillier to give up improvements over the issue. I happily replaced 2 Hoppers to get 4k, never ever to worry about conflicts, speed, sports bar, etc., with one Hopper3.


There are no improvements (that I have any use for) that an HS17 based system can provide me over an HR54 based system. However, there are things that I would have to give up with an HS17 based system. What logical reason is there to give up functionality solely for the sake of getting something new?

In the future, my needs may change. I may have 4K TV's all over the house and the only option to view 4K programming may continue to be an HS17. If, at that point, DirecTV has enough 4K programming to offset the loss of recordable tuners and the addition of a new potential single point of failure, it might make sense to go that way. But, at this point, it makes no sense for me at all.


----------



## J Blow

Bill Broderick said:


> Disagree. The spare tire allows me to continue to do what I was doing before getting a flat (driving my car) and multiple DVR's allow me to continue to do what I was doing before one DVR died (watch DirecTV programming).
> 
> IMO, riding a bus for a few days, instead of driving my car after getting a flat tire, would be more consistent with watching Blu rays or streaming content from another source if my source of DirecTV programming died.


Exactly...except even riding in a bus accomplishes the original goal and you get where you are going. A blu-ray is more like giving someone a bike and telling them they can ride in the opposite direction they were going. If your TV goes out and the superbowl is on, it's hard to think throwing in a DVD would be a solid solution. I can just see myself standing up to ask the 18 people in my living room there to see the game what the big deal is since you're still viewing something on TV.


----------



## HoTat2

Bill Broderick said:


> There are no improvements (that I have any use for) that an HS17 based system can provide me over an HR54 based system. However, there are things that I would have to give up with an HS17 based system. What logical reason is there to give up functionality solely for the sake of getting something new?
> 
> In the future, my needs may change. I may have 4K TV's all over the house and the only option to view 4K programming may continue to be an HS17. If, at that point, DirecTV has enough 4K programming to offset the loss of recordable tuners and the addition of a new potential single point of failure, it might make sense to go that way. But, at this point, it makes no sense for me at all.


The only problem with the "spare tire" approach though is that DIRECTV is not going to give out the equivalent of any more new or improved spare tires.

The only DVR receiver left to support the spare tire model nowadays from DIRECTV is based on the continued worthiness of the aging and increasingly slow HR24s. The last of which was mfr. in 2010 was it?

So it's really coming down to a case of just the Genie 2 or nothing from DIRECTV anyhow.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

J Blow said:


> What's so hard about grasping a single point of failure versus an option that doesn't have a single point of failure? For example, no, most people don't skip vacations or any car travel out of fear for breaking down but if someone says, "hey, which car do you want....one that has X number of things that could go wrong that each render your vehicle completely useless or one that will allow you to continue driving unless all X number of things that could go wrong do so all at once?" One option is clearly better if you have any single care about not being stranded. If you don't care about being stranded then yes, one car offers nothing over the other. So, it's not about living worryfree, being glass half full, or even trying to decide what kills you if you are missing it...it's about choosing the best option for you based on what's important to you. Personally, I don't want to be without my TV for 2 days (even though I may not use it at all) but indicating one option holds no advantage over the other is a ponderous take - especially based on someone else's personal preferences.
> 
> So, having a single point of failure and a just a single central unit of operation is a primary reason I've thought about using my upgrade on an HR54 while it's still available - versus having to take the HS17.


I've always understood your and others thinking. What I do not get as how you can say that no one should think differently.

For most people to me the single point thing is not at all something that outweighs the single unified guide, series manger, and so on.

Ease of use is far more important and is something that is done daily. Worrying about having to only watch dvd maybe once in a few years (if ever) for a night doesn't even compute as a blip on the radar.

For people who need more than seven tuners and 100 series, that makes total sense to go a different route.

To say someone shouldn't get a hs17 based solely on single point of failure is short sighted for almost every person but a few here that also can do their own installs and actually have spare dishes, switches and can make their own cables. If you can't do that you still have single points of failure.

I just think to many people post about this single point thing to people asking for opinions and skip how much easier a genie 2 for them would actually be unless they need more than an hs17 can physically do, like 100 series. Making some ones system overly complicated (multiple DVRs to track series settings etc) for the sake of this single point argument is misleading imho. I totally get why you want it. But it doesn't seem like the advice given to people asking about it is tailored to how that person would use the system. It's seems to be always tailored to how the person answering uses theirs.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Then let's go back to the actual question that started this offshoot of the discussion. Someone asked if there are any reasons not to get an HS-17 instead of the Genie plus 2 DVR system that he currently has.

I answered that question by telling him about the single point of failure, the loss of 2 recordable tuners and 100 series compared to his current system. I than said that if none of these things mattered to him, then there is no reason not to accept the upgrade offer. i fail to aee how that answer was moaleading or tailored to how i use my system. if anything, the posts responding to mine stating that caring about a single point of failure is ridiculous, with no regard for how I use my system have been the ones that have been tailored to how those people use their own systems.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## dod1450

Bill Broderick said:


> Then let's go back to the actual question that started this offshoot of the discussion. Someone asked if there are any reasons not to get an HS-17 instead of the Genie plus 2 DVR system that he currently has.
> 
> I answered that question by telling him about the single point of failure, the loss of 2 recordable tuners and 100 series compared to his current system. I than said that if none of these things mattered to him, then there is no reason not to accept the upgrade offer. i fail to aee how that answer was moaleading or tailored to how i use my system. if anything, the posts responding to mine stating that caring about a single point of failure is ridiculous, with no regard for how I use my system have been the ones that have been tailored to how those people use their own systems.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


 Another reason if you have the AM-21 OTA box. It will NOT work with the HS-17.


----------



## codespy

Good discussion, and great points across the board. I chose the HR54 route this year rather than the HS17, but I guess it's not real common for a sub to have 29 tuners! I also have many spare tires for when I lose some of HR24's. I have 4 extra owned HR 24's IRD's in case motherboards die, but otherwise I have extra fans, power supplies and hard drives in case those parts die. The HR24's are still way faster than the HR34 which many people are still stuck with, and the rest of the HR2x family.

I just had another original AM21 die last week, but I got 7 spare tires of those too.

And yea the HR54 setup only allows for one 4K stream, but I have one 4K C61K upstairs and another one is downstairs. We are either upstairs or downstairs but not usually both, and there is not much 4K content right now to warrant such a use of 2 receivers/4K programs at the same time with DirecTV.


----------



## codespy

Oh.....I forgot to mention....I can have 700 series links with my setup, and I barely watch TV. I'm seeking counseling soon.


----------



## HoTat2

dod1450 said:


> Another reason if you have the AM-21 OTA box. It will NOT work with the HS-17.


True...

Although in fairness, from an internal memo distributed to some DIRECTV techs. A Hauppauge 2 tuner OTA dongle is coming for the HS17.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## Reggie3

I tried to upgrade to the HS17-100. I have 3 4k tvs with a HR 54 on one (no 4k) one C61K for 4k and a HR22-100 (no 4k) on the 3rd. I found out that I was not eligible for a free upgrade till November. I can't wait to get the hs-17


----------



## J Blow

inkahauts said:


> I've always understood your and others thinking. What I do not get as how you can say that no one should think differently.
> 
> For most people to me the single point thing is not at all something that outweighs the single unified guide, series manger, and so on.
> 
> Ease of use is far more important and is something that is done daily. Worrying about having to only watch dvd maybe once in a few years (if ever) for a night doesn't even compute as a blip on the radar.
> 
> For people who need more than seven tuners and 100 series, that makes total sense to go a different route.
> 
> To say someone shouldn't get a hs17 based solely on single point of failure is short sighted for almost every person but a few here that also can do their own installs and actually have spare dishes, switches and can make their own cables. If you can't do that you still have single points of failure.
> 
> I just think to many people post about this single point thing to people asking for opinions and skip how much easier a genie 2 for them would actually be unless they need more than an hs17 can physically do, like 100 series. Making some ones system overly complicated (multiple DVRs to track series settings etc) for the sake of this single point argument is misleading imho. I totally get why you want it. But it doesn't seem like the advice given to people asking about it is tailored to how that person would use the system. It's seems to be always tailored to how the person answering uses theirs.


Actually, I think we are saying the same thing. I wasn't calling you out and certainly not saying that there is only one right way. I was pointing out exactly what you are saying - different people have different viewpoints. The discussion was about the HS-17 vs anything else. If this was tailored to just me, it's a 1 second thought and discussion. The HS-17 won't work in my system. Period. What I was trying to say is there are some very simple reasons why it wouldn't work for many people and then there are also additional reasons why it wouldn't even be the preferred setup for many. No one I saw was indicating the reason not to get one was only the single point of failure. It's just something on top of all the other reasons it's not ideal for me. In honesty, my response was mostly directed at the post that indicated you shouldn't live in fear of anything and hereby just ignore that there could be failures and leave you completely out in the cold...with the upside being you aren't living in fear.

I appreciate your input and that of many others as it gives multiple viewpoints. Hopefully I'm doing a little of the same.


----------



## J Blow

Bill Broderick said:


> Then let's go back to the actual question that started this offshoot of the discussion. Someone asked if there are any reasons not to get an HS-17 instead of the Genie plus 2 DVR system that he currently has.
> 
> I answered that question by telling him about the single point of failure, the loss of 2 recordable tuners and 100 series compared to his current system. I than said that if none of these things mattered to him, then there is no reason not to accept the upgrade offer. i fail to aee how that answer was moaleading or tailored to how i use my system. if anything, the posts responding to mine stating that caring about a single point of failure is ridiculous, with no regard for how I use my system have been the ones that have been tailored to how those people use their own systems.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Although I agree with all of that, I have a couple different reasons to NOT upgrade. In addition to everything previously mentioned (and even if the reasons led a slight advantage to the HS-17), there isn't a feature that's worth wasting an upgrade and separating myself from future upgrades for two years. Although I have no confidence that something significantly better will come about in two years I'd want to upgrade to, I feel my ability to negotiate better monthly pricing is greatly reduced while under contract.


----------



## dod1450

HoTat2 said:


> True...
> 
> Although in fairness, from an internal memo distributed to some DIRECTV techs. A Hauppauge 2 tuner OTA dongle is coming for the HS17.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


 I will wait for the Hauppauge before I upgrade.


----------



## adamjeeps

Hey all just wanted to update everyone that after the tech replaced my HS-17 with a new unit, all has been working perfectly! 

Is the OTA dongle usb powered via the HS-17? I have the antenna from my old setup going directly into the TV, but it would be awesome to integrate it into the Directv system!


----------



## 1953

Awesome. Does your antennae pickup any - channels? For example 11-1


----------



## slice1900

adamjeeps said:


> Hey all just wanted to update everyone that after the tech replaced my HS-17 with a new unit, all has been working perfectly!
> 
> Is the OTA dongle usb powered via the HS-17? I have the antenna from my old setup going directly into the TV, but it would be awesome to integrate it into the Directv system!


What OTA dongle? There are rumors one is coming for the HS17, but currently there is no OTA option. The AM21 that works on older Genie does not work on the HS17.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> What OTA dongle? There are rumors one is coming for the HS17, but currently there is no OTA option. The AM21 that works on older Genie does not work on the HS17.


Well, ... perhaps somewhat above the "rumor" level. It's based on an internal memo circulated to some of the techs. originally posted by west99999;

Some good news I hope for all the OTA fans from DirecTV

But when or if this will ever be available to subs. is unknown of course.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## AZ.

I will assume without any drivers, no OTA will exist?....Unless we have some with a few models that can try....But even scanning software is needed as well....I have been dragging my feet on the 17, wondering if something better will come along?


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

AFAIK, the HS17 doesn't currently have software that can take advantage of an OTA signal.


----------



## BigCat

How do I disable the wireless transmitter on the hs17? Also, what's the difference between the hs17-100 and the hs17-500?


----------



## inkahauts

No difference between the two (just different manufacturers) and you don’t turn the wireless on and off. It should be automatic based on how you setup your system if it’s on based on if it’s needed.


----------



## MysteryMan

BigCat said:


> How do I disable the wireless transmitter on the hs17? Also, what's the difference between the hs17-100 and the hs17-500?


The last three digits identify the unit's manufacturer......100 Technicolor (Thomson/Audiovox/RCA)...200 Samsung...300 Philips...400 Hughes...500 Humax...600 LG...700 Pace...800 NEC.


----------



## aleicgrant

HS-17 install in less than an hour. Got it free after a lot of pushing even though just had movers in May 

Anything to watch out during install. Is a wireless 4k client in the future ? I have one location that has no coax access with a 4k tv


----------



## west99999

Yes a 4k wireless is going to be available. "soon"


----------



## jimlenz

I got my first 4k TV and am upgrading all my equipment. Right now I have a HR44 and 4 HR24. I am getting a HS17 and have the choice of wired or wireless minis. Do the wired units go into the existing directiv cables or do they need to go the router? My router is downstairs and none of my TV's are near it. Would it be best with the wired or wireless? Thanks, Jim


----------



## HoTat2

jimlenz said:


> ... Do the wired units go into the existing directiv cables or do they need to go the router? My router is downstairs and none of my TV's are near it. ...


The wired Minis communicate by MoCA with the Genie server over the existing satellite cables.

Not ethernet to the router ...



> ...Would it be best with the wired or wireless? Thanks, Jim


As with most other networked devices, wired is always superior for reliability. But obviously does not have the convenience of wireless for random movement around the house or to outdoors if desired.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## BigCat

I've had my genie2 for a couple weeks now. Having an issue with my 4k mini genie, many times when I turn it on, the tv displays a directv screen that says "Connecting..." and just sits there indefinitely. If I unplug it and plug it back in, it goes back to normal. This unplugging/plugging is very inconvenient. Anything else I should try or just call Directv?

(EDIT: has never happened in the middle of watching something; only when turning it on, doesn't happen all the time but happens a lot)


----------



## ejbvt

BigCat said:


> I've had my genie2 for a couple weeks now. Having an issue with my 4k mini genie, many times when I turn it on, the tv displays a directv screen that says "Connecting..." and just sits there indefinitely. If I unplug it and plug it back in, it goes back to normal. This unplugging/plugging is very inconvenient. Anything else I should try or just call Directv?
> 
> (EDIT: has never happened in the middle of watching something; only when turning it on, doesn't happen all the time but happens a lot)


This is why we can't have nice things. This is why I don't have 4K. This is why clients/minis are junk. This is exactly why I don't have one anymore.


----------



## Grafixguy

BigCat said:


> I've had my genie2 for a couple weeks now. Having an issue with my 4k mini genie, many times when I turn it on, the tv displays a directv screen that says "Connecting..." and just sits there indefinitely. If I unplug it and plug it back in, it goes back to normal. This unplugging/plugging is very inconvenient. Anything else I should try or just call Directv?
> 
> (EDIT: has never happened in the middle of watching something; only when turning it on, doesn't happen all the time but happens a lot)


Every now and again, I'll see this but only for a couple of seconds. Beyond that? No issues with the 4K clients. I have one wireless that's a bit wonky but it's in my office and doesn't get heavy enough use for me to bother running coax. The other wireless unit I have is in a spare bedroom and closer to the HS17. No issues in there and we've had a lot of company the last few weeks so it's getting used.

Bottom line: if you find it that annoying (and I certainly would) give DTV a call.


----------



## Reggie3

Are you wired or wireless


----------



## inkahauts

jimlenz said:


> I got my first 4k TV and am upgrading all my equipment. Right now I have a HR44 and 4 HR24. I am getting a HS17 and have the choice of wired or wireless minis. Do the wired units go into the existing directiv cables or do they need to go the router? My router is downstairs and none of my TV's are near it. Would it be best with the wired or wireless? Thanks, Jim


How do you use your system now and how many people in the house and how many tvs?

First thing I notice is you are changing from 13 tuners, 300 series links and 3tb of storage to 7 tuners 100 series links and 2tb of storage. So just making sure you understand what you are changing too.

And always go wired minis when possible.


----------



## BigCat

Reggie3 said:


> Are you wired or wireless


wired


----------



## slice1900

Looks like Directv is going to change direction a bit with the HS27. It appears it is designed to be paired with clients running Android TV, like the C71KW that has appeared on the FCC's site. That probably means the HS27 will not run ANY apps, it will serve satellite (and maybe OTA) TV to clients, and that's it.

I couldn't find any other new clients (or the HS27) on the FCC site, so it doesn't look like this is imminent, but probably something we'll see next year.

There has been a C61KW on the RVU Alliance site for ages, but AFAIK it has never been spotted in the wild. Maybe it will never be released, and the C71KW will be the first 4K wireless client we see - probably beating the HS27 to market because the C61KW was dropped before release.


----------



## inkahauts

I wouldnt be surprised if you are wrong on that, because I don’t think they will have one DVR for streaming and satelites both. I think the hs27 will be streaming DVR they have mentioned. The article did mention the manual saying the c71kw will not work with existing stuff, and the android tv thing leads me to think this. I don’t think they would bother updating their GUI if they are going to change to android in the near future.


----------



## BigCat

I posted earlier about my 4K mini genie not finding the "server". Now it can't get data from the "server". It's really unfortunate that they roll out this client/server junk that prevents people from watching tv. I'm afraid the only way to get rid of this genie2 crap is to terminate the service?


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I wouldnt be surprised if you are wrong on that, because I don't think they will have one DVR for streaming and satelites both. I think the hs27 will be streaming DVR they have mentioned. The article did mention the manual saying the c71kw will not work with existing stuff, and the android tv thing leads me to think this. I don't think they would bother updating their GUI if they are going to change to android in the near future.


Where is this "streaming DVR" you keep mentioning? I've heard from multiple sources they're beta testing a cloud DVR for Directv Now. Why would they need a streaming DVR if they have cloud DVR?

Using Android TV doesn't mean they won't use the same Directv interface for satellite. They are using Android TV for the apps, not the GUI.


----------



## inkahauts

BigCat said:


> View attachment 29046
> I posted earlier about my 4K mini genie not finding the "server". Now it can't get data from the "server". It's really unfortunate that they roll out this client/server junk that prevents people from watching tv. I'm afraid the only way to get rid of this genie2 crap is to terminate the service?


Ok, can you describe your entire setup? My guess is you have a wiring issue, and the isn't anything wrong with the hardware, or a router issue. First thing I'd do is disconnect the system from the internet, unplug the Ethernet cable that's plugged in or reset the wireless settings and see what happens for a bit.


----------



## BigCat

inkahauts said:


> Ok, can you describe your entire setup? My guess is you have a wiring issue, and the isn't anything wrong with the hardware, or a router issue. First thing I'd do is disconnect the system from the internet, unplug the Ethernet cable that's plugged in or reset the wireless settings and see what happens for a bit.


Thanks. I have the new genie2 server, two C61s, and one C61K. I recently was upgraded to this setup when I called to request 4k service. Before this, I had the previous genie generation for 4 years and never had issues with it. So not sure where the wiring issue could be.

Today, I was watching the living room's C61 and the video playback error (no data packets received) showed up. Was fine after re-starting it. So the issue is not limited to the C61K.

Couple of days ago I set the world series game to record. So it's in the playlist, but when I hit play on it, all I get is a black screen. If I hit fast forward, the indicator on the orange bar won't move from the beginning of the bar. Can't watch the game...

I'll disconnect the ethernet cable from the genie2 (that's your suggestion). What is the internet connection used for? I guess I don't understand what the ethernet cable or my router could be affecting but will try. Don't the clients communicate with the genie2 via the coax wiring? What part of the service breaks when disconnecting from the internet? Is it the on-demand stuff?


----------



## Grafixguy

On demand and tv apps such as the weather and sports scores require internet. But I can't believe that would have any impact on anything else. I have Ethernet going directly to the HS17 here and while I get the occasional hiccup I haven't seen anything too serious.


----------



## Bill Broderick

If connected, the HS-17 gets software updates via the Internet. If it's not connected to the Internet, it will get updates via satellite, like other receivers do. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Routers assign ip address and if it could be affecting ip stuff for the minis. Easy way to eliminate that possibility is disconnect. 

I lean on having a bad cable. I’d start by looking at the cabling from the hs17 to its splitter and to the dish based on the black recording. 

What software is on all your units?


----------



## BigCat

inkahauts said:


> Routers assign ip address and if it could be affecting ip stuff for the minis. Easy way to eliminate that possibility is disconnect.
> 
> I lean on having a bad cable. I'd start by looking at the cabling from the hs17 to its splitter and to the dish based on the black recording.
> 
> What software is on all your units?


The C61s have 0xa35
The HS17 has 0xd80


----------



## inkahauts

I do believe you will get an update for the client at some point that may help as well.


----------



## cburns14

My internet connection has mostly not worked since i upgraded to the hs17 4 days ago. It didnt work initially and the installer said he connected it via wifi to my router. I balked at that so he tinkered and it worked until he got out. My router shows the old Connection, but its inactive (which matches my lack of connection). I tried the obvious things: different cable and diyport on the router with no luck. So i assume its software or a bad port on the hs17. I connected via 802.11b wifi. 
Anything else i should try, beyond reboots?

Also, i will mention that my original installer left the dish power inserter in the system and it seems to have messed up the 8-way switch as the power is now provided from the hs17, and the additional voltage was no good — some clients wouldnt connect. So make sure the power inserter is removed. I mentioned to my last tech that visited that i had it and took it out.


----------



## inkahauts

Actually you can use a pi instead of the hs17 if you want and should have zero issues. But it has to be connected correctly.

As for your internet, how was it connected before? Do you have an Ethernet cable next to the hs17? That’s the best way...


----------



## mutelight

I was considering using my upgrade for the HS17 but now I am no longer seeing it listed on their website in the equipment list. Anyone know why/when it was removed?


----------



## alexcue

I just ordered the 4k upgrade today and the work order says Genie 2 which I assume is the HS17.


----------



## Grafixguy

It is indeed.


----------



## P Smith

alexcue said:


> I just ordered the 4k upgrade today and the work order says *Genie 2* which I assume is the HS17.


so far it's only one model exist in that line;
soon to be HS27- and HS37- ...


----------



## machavez00

I saw a tech doing an install and he said Genie 2 is the standard install now.


----------



## inkahauts

machavez00 said:


> I saw a tech doing an install and he said Genie 2 is the standard install now.


Interesting since some still get told it's not even in their market. What market?


----------



## sv650moto

Bill Broderick said:


> No. But, I do drive with a spare tire and jumper cables in my car. I also have a generator at my house to keep the electricity on when there is a power failure. While life may be a gamble, we do things to ameliorate the situation when unplanned things occur. As an IT professional, I'm not a big fan of single points of failure when they can easily be avoided.


The LNB is a single point of failure in every system... Just ordered my HS17


----------



## P Smith

sv650moto said:


> The LNB is a single point of failure in every system... Just ordered my HS17


same as F-connectors, coax cable to a splitter, the splitter too, PI.... and the HS17 is major single point of failure


----------



## patmurphey

P Smith said:


> same as F-connectors, coax cable to a splitter, the splitter too, PI.... and the HS17 is major single point of failure


I don't get it, "single point of failure", can't just stream for a day or two. I guess if you're so wound up in TV shows that can't be found streaming or on demand, I guess you need to record every show on 2 DVRs. The client model is here to stay. I happily gave up 2 Hoppers for the far superior Hopper 3.


----------



## Bill Broderick

sv650moto said:


> The LNB is a single point of failure in every system... Just ordered my HS17


Are you really trying to equate the likelihood of a DVR failing with the chances of an LNB failing? There has to be something like 1,000 DVR's failing for every LNB that fails.

It's like you're saying, why bother hvaving a spare tire? You may blow a head gasket.

Enjoy your HS-17. May it last forever.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Bill Broderick said:


> Are you really trying to equate the likelihood of a DVR failing with the chances of an LNB failing? There has to be something like 1,000 DVR's failing for every LNB that fails.
> 
> It's like you're saying, why bother hvaving a spare tire? You may blow a head gasket.
> 
> Enjoy your HS-17. May it last forever.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I've actually had to replace more dishes and lnbs than DVRs. In fact I've had as many lnbs fail as I have had dishes fail (1 each). If you take advantage every couple years and upgrade to whatever is newest I just don't see DVRs failing like so many think. There's exceptions but they don't break as often as some seem to push for everyone.


----------



## Hideftv

I have had DirecTV since 1994 and have never had a receiver or DVR fail. I have had one LNB fail probably 15 years or so ago.


----------



## HoTat2

Hideftv said:


> I have had DirecTV since 1994 and have never had a receiver or DVR fail. I have had one LNB fail probably 15 years or so ago.


Sub. since Sep. of '95 here ...

Have had over half-dozen DVRs. and one receiver fail on me over that time ...

Strangely, no LNBs ever have ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## Matt L

Kicking the idea of 4K around, not sure if it's worth upgrading my service with limited 4k content on D. While I mull it over couple of questions. Since the mini has to be at the 4k display am I forced to use a crappy RF remote? I have my trusty Harmonies throughout the house, don't want to give them up. Does the mini accept IR? What is the status of self install? I've scanned this thread and see some have been able to, other not so much. I've done all my installs for well over a decade. Once had an installer out because I was forced to when going from the old HD TiVo to the HR21 units, the dude had no mulitswitches that would support all my equipment and had to daisy chain stuff together to get it working -- a VERY messy setup. I bought the proper stuff and got it set up right. Did the same when I went to SWM, popped a new LNB in last year, have no issue putting in the Reverse if/when needed. I have extensive wiring and a complicated network setup and do not want someone with no clue messing with either. All my receivers but one are owned, I know the HR54 and C61 are only leased, not a big deal. I bought all of them on ebay and know how to check the status of a used box. I'd have to replace one of my owned with a mini. Odds are I'd have to go to a DSWM 21 to support all the tuners.

Thoughts? Suggestions?


----------



## MysteryMan

The C61K-700 is IR/RF capable. If you upgrade to 4K you should also future proof your dish and upgrade the LNB with a Reverse Band LNB. As for letting you do a self install it's a role of the dice with the CSRs.


----------



## HoTat2

I also think you're referring to the new "DSWM-30" external SWiM multiswitch, as there is no "... -21" model.

Though technically, you could say the new digital 2nd gen. SWiM LNBs have an integrated "DSWM-21" multiswitch bullitin them with all 21 SWiM user band channels available on a single port.

Whereas the ext. DSWM-30 switch offers 30 user band SWiM channels in two 15 channel banks to dual ports.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## Matt L

Ok, was not sure on the LNB. Did a quick search on ebay and for a number of listings for this: 
* Directv 21 Tuner Reverse Band LNB Gen2 DSWM RB SWM3 3D2RBLNBR0-14 LNBF 4K HD DTV*

I'd have 3 or 4 Hr24s left connected and would like to keep dual tuner capability, though if they can stream from the HR54 that might not be and issue and one tuner would be fine


----------



## HoTat2

Matt L said:


> Ok, was not sure on the LNB. Did a quick search on ebay and for a number of listings for this:
> * Directv 21 Tuner Reverse Band LNB Gen2 DSWM RB SWM3 3D2RBLNBR0-14 LNBF 4K HD DTV* ...
> 
> ...


That one will work fine ...

And while irrelevant of course, I've never been able to figure out who the mfr. is for code "-14."

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

HoTat2 said:


> That one will work fine ...
> 
> And while irrelevant of course, I've never been able to figure out who the mfr. is for code "-14."
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


MTI


----------



## Reggie3

Hideftv said:


> I have had DirecTV since 1994 and have never had a receiver or DVR fail. I have had one LNB fail probably 15 years or so ago.


Since 96 for me with 3 dvrs. Not one failure ever


----------



## machavez00

machavez00 said:


> I saw a tech doing an install and he said Genie 2 is the standard install now.





inkahauts said:


> Interesting since some still get told it's not even in their market. What market?


Phoenix, AZ


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I was at my friends place last night helping them set up their new 4KTV and saw their HS17, and wow is it a behemoth. 

I know the HS17 is designed to go anywhere in the house, but due to cable restrictions they had to place the HS17 and client at the main TV. It would have been nice if the HS17 had an HDMI port, or better yet, a coax cable pass through for situations where the server and client are placed at the same location, it would eliminate the extra cables and splitters.


----------



## guitarguy316

So the past 2 days I’m seeing some grate hitches or skips every 5-10 seconds or so. It’s so obvious watching live sports. I rebooted my hs17 and all my c61k clients. I just turned on the fsu game and I’m still seeing it. 

Anyone else experiencing this just in the last couple of days?


----------



## Go Beavs

I've seen that behavior on the past. Sometimes rewinding a few seconds and watching from the buffer makes things better.


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

Go Beavs said:


> I've seen that behavior on the past. Sometimes rewinding a few seconds and watching from the buffer makes things better.


The replacement SR-17 was installed less than an hour ago. The pixilation problem I had with the 54 is the same with the 17. Actually it's worse. I just hung up from the automated survey and gave them a 5 on if I would recommend DirecTV to a friend.


----------



## P Smith

Andrew Sullivan said:


> The replacement *SR-17* was installed less than an hour ago. The pixilation problem I had with the 54 is the same with the 17. Actually it's worse. I just hung up from the automated survey and gave them a 5 on if I would recommend DirecTV to a friend.


Are you sure it wasn't SR-71 ?


----------



## Reggie3

Andrew Sullivan said:


> The replacement SR-17 was installed less than an hour ago. The pixilation problem I had with the 54 is the same with the 17. Actually it's worse. I just hung up from the automated survey and gave them a 5 on if I would recommend DirecTV to a friend.


I just had my HS17 installed Thursday with C61K driving a 65" LG OLED and another C61K driving a 75" Sony 940D. The GUI is noticeablely guicker. I saw atmos sound is available now. I am sure it is the paceblo effect but the picture seems better than the H54 I had. The Tech said D* is working in the dropouts issues.


----------



## carl6

Andrew Sullivan said:


> The replacement SR-17 was installed less than an hour ago. The pixilation problem I had with the 54 is the same with the 17. Actually it's worse. I just hung up from the automated survey and gave them a 5 on if I would recommend DirecTV to a friend.


Obviously your pixilation problem is not the HS17 or the HR54. My guess would be dish, LNB, coax, power inserter, something in your overall home installation. If it were in the general DirecTV uplink or downlink, it would be a widespread problem with huge numbers of complaints, which do not appear to be the case.


----------



## Reggie3

carl6 said:


> Obviously your pixilation problem is not the HS17 or the HR54. My guess would be dish, LNB, coax, power inserter, something in your overall home installation. If it were in the general DirecTV uplink or downlink, it would be a widespread problem with huge numbers of complaints, which do not appear to be the case.


It is a D* issue. My tech confirmed it. D* is working on it. He brought it up without me mentioning I had seen it.


----------



## compnurd

Reggie3 said:


> It is a D* issue. My tech confirmed it. D* is working on it. He brought it up without me mentioning I had seen it.


I am sorry but your tech may have just been priming you. Carl is correct on this matter


----------



## texasbrit

carl6 said:


> Obviously your pixilation problem is not the HS17 or the HR54. My guess would be dish, LNB, coax, power inserter, something in your overall home installation. If it were in the general DirecTV uplink or downlink, it would be a widespread problem with huge numbers of complaints, which do not appear to be the case.


No, there are a large number of complaints on this. According to this thread Increasing intermittent pixelzation and intermittent with audio drops DirecTV has found the problem but I will believe it when I see it.


----------



## WestDC

compnurd said:


> I am sorry but your tech may have just been priming you. Carl is correct on this matter


Here is a Link Posted on the AT&T Site - Asking for folks to contact them
Pixelation Problem


----------



## P Smith

carl6 said:


> Obviously your pixilation problem is not the HS17 or the HR54. My guess would be dish, LNB, coax, power inserter, something in your overall home installation. If it were in the general DirecTV uplink or downlink, it would be a widespread problem with huge numbers of complaints, which do not appear to be the case.


I'm pointing a few times - it could be race condition in HW/new FW inflicted by new data from sat stream !


----------



## compnurd

WestDC said:


> Here is a Link Posted on the AT&T Site - Asking for folks to contact them
> Pixelation Problem


Yeh........... don't see anyone officially from directv asking that


----------



## WestDC

compnurd said:


> Yeh........... don't see anyone officially from directv asking that


AT&T is Directv


----------



## compnurd

WestDC said:


> AT&T is Directv


Get the hell out of here. When did that happen??????


----------



## ejbvt

carl6 said:


> Obviously your pixilation problem is not the HS17 or the HR54. My guess would be dish, LNB, coax, power inserter, something in your overall home installation. If it were in the general DirecTV uplink or downlink, it would be a widespread problem with huge numbers of complaints, which do not appear to be the case.


No.


----------



## P Smith

ejbvt said:


> No.


too short answer - may I read more details of your disagreement with carl6 ?


----------



## ejbvt

P Smith said:


> too short answer - may I read more details of your disagreement with carl6 ?


Many people have this pixelation issue. Many people have had their entire systems rewired and still have the pixelation issue. You know this, you have commented on all the threads. I experienced this for months. So have many others.

However, I think they have addressed it because it has been much better over the past week. Today is the test as the Sunday Ticket channels have been among the worst. I would have seen it by now on the pregame and not a blip. I watched a basketball game on YES yesterday to see if it would blip and it only did to the level it has for years. Locals have been clean. This is my experience hopefully others see it clear up as well. I know some locals are still pixelating. How do I know. Do what you tell others to do and look for other threads.


----------



## compnurd

ejbvt said:


> Many people have this pixelation issue. Many people have had their entire systems rewired and still have the pixelation issue. You know this, you have commented on all the threads. I experienced this for months. So have many others.
> 
> However, I think they have addressed it because it has been much better over the past week. Today is the test as the Sunday Ticket channels have been among the worst. I would have seen it by now on the pregame and not a blip. I watched a basketball game on YES yesterday to see if it would blip and it only did to the level it has for years. Locals have been clean. This is my experience hopefully others see it clear up as well. I know some locals are still pixelating. How do I know. Do what you tell others to do and look for other threads.


I have had no pixelation issues


----------



## Christopher Gould

I was watching a premium channel this afternoon. Can't remember which one but the pixelation was so bad I had to stop watching it.


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

P Smith said:


> Are you sure it wasn't SR-71 ?


Nah, I'm going down to the Air Force Museum in Tuscon this week. I had the SR-71 on my mind.


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

DirecTV let me out of the second year of my contract with no penalty after the tech came out and changed every wire throughout my system. His supervisor later emailed me and said that the pixelation problem is wide spread and even he is experiencing it. One week after I cancelled my service AAT called and said that the HS17 might solve the problem They offered me a great deal with no contract to sign. The HS17 was installed yesterday and within an hour the pixelation was actually worse. I'll live with it for a year and see what happens.


----------



## carl6

Okay, I'll take a step back. There are many possible things that can produce most any symptom. DirecTV (satellite TV in general) is a very complex technology. There is sourcing the video to start with. There is encoding it. There is uplinking it. There is downlinking it. There is decoding it, and there is presenting it on your screen.

Various groups of channels are handled as groups, being sent through one transponder or another, or one satellite or another. They are pushed through various different encoder systems and handled by various different decoder systems.

Think of it as maybe having a hundred different parallel paths of signal processing, and maybe it is showing up on one or a few of those paths, but not all of them. That way, it would be experienced by some people, but not by all, and could very well be a DirecTV/ATT problem as opposed to an individual installation. I don't know how many so-called parallel paths there are, but there are a bunch.

And each of those paths has fairly constant change/upgrade/configuration changes which are supposed to be transparent. At the very tail end of that process is the model of box you have in your house and the version of software running on it. But that is just the very last step in a long process preceding it.

So yes, it is clearly possible that pixilation could be showing up on one or more groups of channels and not on others. Yes, it is entirely possible that some customers would experience while others don't.

A more accurate approach to this would be to try and narrow down the specific channels where this is happening, when it is happening (time of day, program involved), where it is happening (market area or satellite/transponder involved), etc. It truly is not fair to say what I said (you are the only one with the problem therefore it is in your installation). That could be the case, but it could also be the case you (the person experiencing the pixilation) is watching a channel none of the rest of us regularly watch, and therefore we are not seeing the symptom. Way too many variables involved.

So at a very broad level, it is fair to say "It isn't DirecTV, it is you", for example nothing is working at your house, but nobody else is seeing a problem. But it may or may not be fair to say it is a problem in a specific installation when the symptoms are far less global. It could still be a problem with a specific installation, but it may also be a problem in one of those so-called parallel paths that is only impacting a select group of channels.


----------



## slice1900

Well it sounds like that was what Directv did by asking people to send them information on their pixelation issues, which supposedly has been / will be addressed in a software update.

What I don't get is why do they have to rely on customers to tell them at all. The software on the boxes should be able to tell if there are decoding errors and internet connected boxes could relay that info back to home base.

There would be a certain amount of 'noise' in that data (i.e. rain fade in areas with weather, or people who have defective hardware / cabling) but even that's useful. They can tell where rain fade is likely via NWS radar and ignore that data, and finding out customers who have reception issues that don't match any known pattern could be useful - maybe they have a bad cable, maybe their LNB is going out, maybe one of their receivers is on the fritz. Directv could call them "hey, are you having issues with your Directv, we'd like to send out a tech and fix your problem". Talk about a customer service win!


----------



## P Smith

the DTV issue remind me computer's arena ... sometime updates/install other program make some computers behave unexpectedly - and it give a lot of headache to IT guys in corporate environment 
been there many times, I would say it required very intensive knowledge of core OS and programs and time, while your boss is breathing behind you all the time


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

slice1900 said:


> The software on the boxes should be able to tell if there are decoding errors and internet connected boxes could relay that info back to home base. Directv could call them "hey, are you having issues with your Directv, we'd like to send out a tech and fix your problem". Talk about a customer service win!


Until subscribers start complaining about eavesdropping and invasion of privacy; tinfoil hats not only block signals, they block progress.


----------



## slice1900

Wolfmanjohn said:


> Until subscribers start complaining about eavesdropping and invasion of privacy; tinfoil hats not only block signals, they block progress.


How would it be 'invasion of privacy' to detect whether you are receiving signals properly or not? Considering they are already invading your privacy WAY more by using what you watch and when along with other information they have about you to determine what localized ads to deliver to you, this is like a soldier carrying a 150 lb pack complaining because they need to add a golf ball to their load


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

slice1900 said:


> How would it be 'invasion of privacy' to detect whether you are receiving signals properly or not? Considering they are already invading your privacy WAY more by using what you watch and when along with other information they have about you to determine what localized ads to deliver to you, this is like a soldier carrying a 150 lb pack complaining because they need to add a golf ball to their load


Precisely! I would have no problem with them monitoring my signal performance (I'd welcome it), but I'm sure a few others out there would.


----------



## P Smith

Wolfmanjohn said:


> Precisely! I would have no problem with them monitoring my signal performance (I'd welcome it), but I'm sure a few others out there would.


we are pointing - it's monitoring and sending reports including what/when you are watching - do you accept the fact positively too?


----------



## HoTat2

I thought DIRECTV was already long doing this for a kind of remote IV test monitoring. And would actually call or email subs. to advise a service call when unacceptably low levels were detected?

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> I thought DIRECTV was already long doing this for a kind of remote IV test monitoring. And would actually call or email subs. to advise a service call when unacceptably low levels were detected?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


Yeah, I recall it too, someone posted when he got unexpected call from DTV regarding bad signal/equipment


----------



## slice1900

If that's the case, how come we have people coming here all the time with problems asking for help diagnosing them? Maybe they have a pilot program where a small number of people are having that monitoring enabled to see how it goes before they roll it out to everyone, if indeed someone did receive such a call.

I'd think if they were doing this for everyone they'd advertise it as a feature.

To be honest, if you get a call from Directv saying we think you have problems, I'd think it is 50x more likely to be some sort of a scam than Directv actually being proactive


----------



## P Smith

I recall that outcome when we discussed the call... yeah, perhaps it was a pilot project ...so, poor customers still chugging alone


----------



## millercentral

Today I tuned to 104 and my TV kicked into HLG HDR mode! The picture looks fantastic!


----------



## slice1900

Did Directv just add support for HLG format HDR or something? That's the second time today I've seen something about it...I thought they were using HDR10?


----------



## P Smith

millercentral said:


> Today I tuned to 104 and my TV kicked into HLG HDR mode! The picture looks fantastic!


perhpas the TV reporting incorrectly ?
it looks like HLG adopting in Europe, not US
perhaps it's just HDR10 ?


----------



## Grafixguy

Had the same thing happen but the TV is acting up over it on that channel. Not sure what's going on. LG TV now displays no signal on that channel. Will do a bit of digging to see if there's a known issue on this but I thought this format was for live events so it would have made more sense to see it on channel 106.


----------



## compnurd

P Smith said:


> perhpas the TV reporting incorrectly ?
> it looks like HLG adopting in Europe, not US
> perhaps it's just HDR10 ?


I agree i think it is a formatting problem. Directv even recently indicated they were only supporting HDR10.. Not HLG.. It could be a bug with the TV or even the recent C61k firmware.. and it was only going to initially be used on 106.. Not 104.. so who knows right now


----------



## hancox

P Smith said:


> perhpas the TV reporting incorrectly ?
> it looks like HLG adopting in Europe, not US
> perhaps it's just HDR10 ?


Wrong. HLG is made for broadcast HDR. It makes sense DirecTV would at least try to use it.


----------



## compnurd

hancox said:


> Wrong. HLG is made for broadcast HDR. It makes sense DirecTV would at least try to use it.


Correct but it had only been tested in the UK and Japan.. There was zero zero zero word of anyone in the US planning to use it or test it for a number of years.. They really dropped a bomb here if that is what they are planning to use


----------



## hancox

compnurd said:


> Correct but it had only been tested in the UK and Japan.. There was zero zero zero word of anyone in the US planning to use it or test it for a number of years.. They really dropped a bomb here if that is what they are planning to use


Chicken and egg. We haven't heard a lot about it because of lack of broadcast 4k, much less HDR.


----------



## compnurd

hancox said:


> Chicken and egg. We haven't heard a lot about it because of lack of broadcast 4k, much less HDR.


Well no. They stated previously that they would be using HDR10.. They also now have alot of people with C61k's reporting that there TV is HDR compatible and it may not be


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

Well I am stumped. With the 17 I don't see an option when recording a series to set for "New Episodes Only".


----------



## hancox

compnurd said:


> Well no. They stated previously that they would be using HDR10.. They also now have alot of people with C61k's reporting that there TV is HDR compatible and it may not be


 Link? The stuff that launched this week is really the only official anything i can remember on HDR from them - i might have missed something.

Also, HDR is such a mess at the moment, i wouldn't even blame them if they did change gears...
HDR10
HDR10+
DV
HLG


----------



## WestDC

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Well I am stumped. With the 17 I don't see an option when recording a series to set for "New Episodes Only".


On the remote -List -Manage Recordings -Select Typical Recording preference - that when you can find it


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

WestDC said:


> On the remote -List -Manage Recordings -Select Typical Recording preference - that when you can find it


Thanks. I figured it out. When you select series options it goes directly to record as is instead of going to episode type which is where you select first runs only. It should go to episode type first


----------



## WestDC

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Thanks. I figured it out. When you select series options it goes directly to record as is instead of going to episode type which is where you select first runs only. It should go to episode type first


Okay -I'll start working on that Right away


----------



## Andrew Sullivan

WestDC said:


> Okay -I'll start working on that Right away


Hmmmm, I take it you disagree?


----------



## WestDC

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Hmmmm, I take it you disagree?


If your expecting a Change to that option I doubt it will happen - I was giving you a Joking D* customer service response.


----------



## y2jdmbfan

Does anyone know if you can get the HS17 on a brand new install?


----------



## HoTat2

y2jdmbfan said:


> Does anyone know if you can get the HS17 on a brand new install?


Nah ...

Still current customer upgrades only, to my knowledge ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## compnurd

hancox said:


> Link? The stuff that launched this week is really the only official anything i can remember on HDR from them - i might have missed something.
> 
> Also, HDR is such a mess at the moment, i wouldn't even blame them if they did change gears...
> HDR10
> HDR10+
> DV
> HLG


I was sent a 4K survey from them over the summer asking questions about future content. It was in there that they stated using HDR10


----------



## compnurd

compnurd said:


> I was sent a 4K survey from them over the summer asking questions about future content. It was in there that they stated using HDR10


I also find it interesting that they have zero fine print or anything for what type of HDR they are using. Because they have basically eliminated all 2015 4K TVs (unless this forces the companies to send some updates) And a lot of people were some of the first to get C61ks for that model And a lot of 2015 4K TVs do a better job with HDR then a lot of 2016 models!


----------



## Grafixguy

My 2014 Samsung has no HDR at all. The picture is gorgeous.

Unfortunately, the hockey game looked horribly washed out on that set. I thought something was wrong until I turned on my new LG 55UJ6540 and HDR kicked in. WOW! What a difference and it was very inexpensive ($479) set.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> I also find it interesting that they have zero fine print or anything for what type of HDR they are using. Because they have basically eliminated all 2015 4K TVs (unless this forces the companies to send some updates)


Companies aren't likely to send updates - they want to sell new TVs not make older ones better. Some won't even be possible to update - for HLG the panel has to be able to map to the Rec. 2020 color space which as I understand it isn't something that can be added later in software. Likely many 2015 era TVs were designed with only DCI-P3 since they couldn't even display the full DCI-P3 space. Even today no TVs for sale or even in the labs come remotely close to displaying the full Rec. 2020 color space.

The "washed out color" on non-HDR TVs is a side effect of HLG not requiring any metadata, meaning it can either look right on an HLG HDR set, or look right on one without, but not both at the same time. The HDR formats that require metadata can still look good when HDR is not enabled, but the metadata apparently makes them more difficult to produce and deliver - the entire broadcast chain has to support it which means it'll be years before there's a chance they come into general use for broadcast or live streaming.

This is a risk some of us were cautioning people while they were speeding to buy 4K TVs and thinking because it said "HDR" they were future proofed. There are at least four different flavors of HDR today, and the way standards wars usually work there might be a 5th or 6th that ends up winning before all is said and done. Or we could end up with different providers using different ones, so only TVs that support them all will work in all cases (great for patent holders, but would make TVs more expensive as a result)


----------



## WestDC

Proving-The Future is Uncertain and The End is always Near


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> Companies aren't likely to send updates - they want to sell new TVs not make older ones better. Some won't even be possible to update - for HLG the panel has to be able to map to the Rec. 2020 color space which as I understand it isn't something that can be added later in software. Likely many 2015 era TVs were designed with only DCI-P3 since they couldn't even display the full DCI-P3 space. Even today no TVs for sale or even in the labs come remotely close to displaying the full Rec. 2020 color space.
> 
> The "washed out color" on non-HDR TVs is a side effect of HLG not requiring any metadata, meaning it can either look right on an HLG HDR set, or look right on one without, but not both at the same time. The HDR formats that require metadata can still look good when HDR is not enabled, but the metadata apparently makes them more difficult to produce and deliver - the entire broadcast chain has to support it which means it'll be years before there's a chance they come into general use for broadcast or live streaming.
> 
> This is a risk some of us were cautioning people while they were speeding to buy 4K TVs and thinking because it said "HDR" they were future proofed. There are at least four different flavors of HDR today, and the way standards wars usually work there might be a 5th or 6th that ends up winning before all is said and done. Or we could end up with different providers using different ones, so only TVs that support them all will work in all cases (great for patent holders, but would make TVs more expensive as a result)


A lot of higher end 2015 TVs can map rec.2020 and some can do it better than 2016 models

I suspect Sony and Samsung may do something as there higher end TV's do HDR great. Hell my JS from 2015 still gets regular updates from Samsung with a coming update to support Vudu UHD and HDR. While they obviously want to sell newer TVs they also don't want to piss off some of there early adopters who when choosing a new Tv go with a different brand because of there lack of support for higher end sets. Hell if Samsung turns this on my next TV will most likely be another high end Samsung instead of another brand. If not LG OLED here I come

Hell my 2015 JS covers more of the rec2020 space than the 2016 equivalent and more than there MU9000 from this year!


----------



## inkahauts

Andrew Sullivan said:


> Thanks. I figured it out. When you select series options it goes directly to record as is instead of going to episode type which is where you select first runs only. It should go to episode type first


If you are talking about in the more info screens, when it goes over and highlights the record as is, you can hit the left arrow button and get over to all the options at that point and change them. Changing the typical recording preferences only changes its future behavior of new r cording sand new series recordings. It won't change anything that is already set up to record.


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> A lot of higher end 2015 TVs can map rec.2020 and some can do it better than 2016 models
> 
> I suspect Sony and Samsung may do something as there higher end TV's do HDR great. Hell my JS from 2015 still gets regular updates from Samsung with a coming update to support Vudu UHD and HDR. While they obviously want to sell newer TVs they also don't want to piss off some of there early adopters who when choosing a new Tv go with a different brand because of there lack of support for higher end sets. Hell if Samsung turns this on my next TV will most likely be another high end Samsung instead of another brand. If not LG OLED here I come
> 
> Hell my 2015 JS covers more of the rec2020 space than the 2016 equivalent and more than there MU9000 from this year!


Well the higher priced ones may get support for a little longer because they want the repeat business of early adopters to buy another high priced model. Most people aren't buying the pricey ones though, they're buy low to mid range models that probably leave them SOL even if they advertised HDR as a feature.

Directv probably needs to update their HDR test to explicitly test HLG if that's what they plan to use going forward. If they plan to try multiple types of HDR, they should have the test try them all and report which ones work.


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> Well the higher priced ones may get support for a little longer because they want the repeat business of early adopters to buy another high priced model. Most people aren't buying the pricey ones though, they're buy low to mid range models that probably leave them SOL even if they advertised HDR as a feature.
> 
> Directv probably needs to update their HDR test to explicitly test HLG if that's what they plan to use going forward. If they plan to try multiple types of HDR, they should have the test try them all and report which ones work.


Agree 100%


----------



## inkahauts

I wonder if it’s HLG for the live but will be hdr and dv for non live events. Like say HBO movies etc. we shall see in time. In theory the latest standard allows for so many that every tv manufacturer will make their TVs compatible with all and hopefully DIRECTV will do the same.


----------



## compnurd

inkahauts said:


> I wonder if it's HLG for the live but will be hdr and dv for non live events. Like say HBO movies etc. we shall see in time. In theory the latest standard allows for so many that every tv manufacturer will make their TVs compatible with all and hopefully DIRECTV will do the same.


Possibly but at least right now 104 is not using HDR10


----------



## rjhseven

I just had a movers install done and had told illiterate DTV rep that I had five 4k/UHD TVs now (had 2 at old home) and I wanted to run. Well after delays and a reschedule, my brother was here for install and he has Comcast and knows nothing about DTV. The 3 new TVs went to my Sports Room and I’m not sure but knowledgeable installer told me that I can only run 2 4Ks off the my existing HR 24-700. He said I should had gotten a Genie 17. That it would run 4-5 4K TVs.

Is that true? Is that what you guys would recommend? I only use sports room on family visits and on college football and basketball. Rep noted I needed the Genie 17. I do not want to read 101 pages of this thread for a simple question. So little 4K content right now; it’s not a huge issue but I have been with DTV 24 years. I’m usually able to get what I want but harder since knuckleheads at ATT took over. Every time I call it’s an 1and 1/2 hour call minimum and I’m hearing impaired which , even with captioned phone makes it more difficult. TIA for any help.


----------



## WestDC

HS-17 is only is only being installed as an upgrade for existing customers. The HS-17 only supports 2 4K TV's at a time- With the HS-17 you can only have MINI's they will install up to 8 but only 7 active at any one time. 

Hr54- Only Supports One 4K tv as long as you have one of those you can -you can have as many older Receivers up to a Total of 21 Tuners.

Get a HS-17 and current D* policy is only Mini's allowed on your account - SO all you Stuff goes away


----------



## y2jdmbfan

Does anyone know if I will have a problem setting up an HS17 Genie 2 myself if I just pony up the $300 from Solid Signal? I just had everything installed on Saturday, HR54, C61K, (3) C61's, and one 4K RVU. I was supposed to get all C61K's and a Genie 2, according to the sales rep when I signed up, but they then insisted at the time of install they weren't available for new customers and the installed only had one C61K on his truck. I'm locked in for 2 years or $480 at this point, and I don't want to deal with losing all of my wife's recordings when I want to switch to the HS17 down the line. I have (3) 4K TV's in the house right now and just want to be as future proofed as possible.


----------



## carl6

The main problem you will have is, you can't have any other receiver/dvr on your account with an HS17 active. So as soon as you go to activate the HS17, you'll have to deactivate the HR54 (and lose all recordings on it).

At this point in time, due to the very limited 4K programming available, I would personally stay with the HR54.

However, if you do order the HS17, it should be almost plug and play in place of the HR54. The main difference is the HS17 is a "headless server", which means it does not output directly to a television. You'll need another client to run whatever TV the HR54 is located at.


----------



## P Smith

carl6 said:


> The main problem you will have is, you can't have any other receiver/dvr on your account with an HS17 active. So as soon as you go to activate the HS17, you'll have to deactivate the HR54 (and lose all recordings on it).
> 
> At this point in time, due to the very limited 4K programming available, I would personally stay with the HR54.
> 
> However, if you do order the HS17, it should be almost plug and play in place of the HR54. The main difference is the HS17 is a "headless server", which means it does not output directly to a television. You'll need another client to run whatever TV the HR54 is located at.


I would stick the post to each new post with same questions and same choice: HR54 or HS17 !


----------



## HoTat2

WestDC said:


> ... With the HS-17 you can only have MINI's they will install up to 9 but only 8 active at any one time.
> 
> ...


How does the HS17 support up to 8 active clients with only a max. of 7 active tuners (not counting the 4 reserved for channel bonding on the RB)?

Or have the number of max. tuners on the HS17 gone up to 8 recently?

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> How does the HS17 support up to 8 active clients with only a max. of 7 active tuners (not counting the 4 reserved for channel bonding on the RB)?
> 
> Or have the number of max. tuners on the HS17 gone up to 8 recently?


nay, it's some people just lost here ... for those posted User Manual of HS17 in the thread


----------



## WestDC

Once again we have Confusion over Streaming & Tuners-

The HS-17 -
Supports up to seven (7) streams of content simultaneously (two of which can be 4K streams)-Meaning you can have 8 Mini's only 7 active at anyone time.

HS-17 - Using RB LNB - Has 11 TUNERS


----------



## y2jdmbfan

carl6 said:


> The main problem you will have is, you can't have any other receiver/dvr on your account with an HS17 active. So as soon as you go to activate the HS17, you'll have to deactivate the HR54 (and lose all recordings on it).
> 
> At this point in time, due to the very limited 4K programming available, I would personally stay with the HR54.
> 
> However, if you do order the HS17, it should be almost plug and play in place of the HR54. The main difference is the HS17 is a "headless server", which means it does not output directly to a television. You'll need another client to run whatever TV the HR54 is located at.


So I called retention this morning, and explained the situation, they set me up for a Genie 2 install and 2 additional 4K Genie Minis.

I will end up with Genie 2, (3) 4K Genie Minis, (3) Genie Minis

I think I will end up letting them install the Genie 2 in a spare bedroom and then just move it to my basement storage room where the network and RG 6 distribution blocks are at.


----------



## Grafixguy

Why not let them install there in the first place?


----------



## WestDC

Here's hoping your install goes well - Why Not just let them install the genie in the bsm't to begin with? Makes no Difference to me


----------



## y2jdmbfan

WestDC said:


> Here's hoping your install goes well - Why Not just let them install the genie in the bsm't to begin with? Makes no Difference to me


I guess it depends on the installer, the guy on Saturday got a little bit of an attitude when I was watching him while he was messing with my wire panel down there.


----------



## WestDC

You will get a different person each time lol


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> How does the HS17 support up to 8 active clients with only a max. of 7 active tuners (not counting the 4 reserved for channel bonding on the RB)?
> 
> Or have the number of max. tuners on the HS17 gone up to 8 recently?


Genies have always supported 8 clients, the older ones could operate 3 at once with the other 5 needing to be in standby or otherwise unused. With the HS17 now you can operate 7 at once and only 1 has to be in standby. That's a lot more reasonable since even households with a lot of TVs don't have them all running at once (i.e. spare rooms, workout room, master bedroom TV not used at the same time as say the home theater TV etc.)


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> Genies have always supported 8 clients, the older ones could operate 3 at once with the other 5 needing to be in standby or otherwise unused. With the HS17 now you can operate 7 at once and only 1 has to be in standby. That's a lot more reasonable since even households with a lot of TVs don't have them all running at once (i.e. spare rooms, workout room, master bedroom TV not used at the same time as say the home theater TV etc.)


I know ...

But at the time WestDC back in post #2022 said the HS17 could have up to 9 clients installed with 8 active. Which is what confused me.

That post has since been edited to 8 clients with 7 active which is what I always thought it was.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## y2jdmbfan

How many tuners should a genie 2 installation show in the satellite dish setup? It's only showing 15, is that right?


----------



## P Smith

y2jdmbfan said:


> How many tuners should a genie 2 installation show in the satellite dish setup? It's only showing 15, is that right?


hmmm ... what LNBF [and SWM switch] you have ?


----------



## y2jdmbfan

P Smith said:


> hmmm ... what LNBF [and SWM switch] you have ?


Not sure, The guys switched the LNB when he got here, not sure he didn't even need to do that.


----------



## jborchel

I've had my HS-17 and C61 mini since mid August. I was setup with my C61 and PS3 wired with HDMI 1.4 directly to my 4K TV. Audio out on the TV went through the digital fiber optic cable to a Yamaha HDMI receiver. My audio was 2.1 and everything worked fine. So I just installed two surround speakers for 5.1 and decided to take advantage of the receiver by wiring the two HDMI cables through my receiver. I forgot that my receiver was not 4k and was given the message "Your TV doesn't support 4K content". So I re-wired it back to the original setup but now I am getting the same "Your TV doesn't support 4K content" message. I changed the cables to Monoprice Certified High Speed cables and that didn't make any difference. I'm still getting the message.

It's like my Yamaha flipped a bit in the C61 and it won't flip back. Anyone know what has happened?


----------



## carl6

y2jdmbfan said:


> How many tuners should a genie 2 installation show in the satellite dish setup? It's only showing 15, is that right?


My HS17 shows 22 SWM channels, 15 tuners. Those are the correct counts.


----------



## P Smith

jborchel said:


> I've had my HS-17 and C61 mini since mid August. I was setup with my C61 and PS3 wired with HDMI 1.4 directly to my 4K TV. Audio out on the TV went through the digital fiber optic cable to a Yamaha HDMI receiver. My audio was 2.1 and everything worked fine. So I just installed two surround speakers for 5.1 and decided to take advantage of the receiver by wiring the two HDMI cables through my receiver. I forgot that my receiver was not 4k and was given the message "Your TV doesn't support 4K content". So I re-wired it back to the original setup but now I am getting the same "Your TV doesn't support 4K content" message. I changed the cables to Monoprice Certified High Speed cables and that didn't make any difference. I'm still getting the message.
> 
> It's like my Yamaha flipped a bit in the C61 and it won't flip back. Anyone know what has happened?


hope you have c61K; I would try hot unplug/replug HDMI cable between C61K and the TV (what TV model you have ?)


----------



## WestDC

y2jdmbfan said:


> How many tuners should a genie 2 installation show in the satellite dish setup? It's only showing 15, is that right?


Maybe they didn't install a Reverse Band LNB?

Looking at my Setting-genie info-it's listed as Swm -Reverse Band-22 channels


----------



## y2jdmbfan

carl6 said:


> My HS17 shows 22 SWM channels, 15 tuners. Those are the correct counts.


Thanks!


----------



## jborchel

I do have C61K-700. Current software is 0xfba. My TV is 2014 Vizio P70. What's puzzling is that 4K worked when previously connected between C61 and Vizio. And now it doesn't no matter which cables I use.

Edit: I just ran a system test. It says Software is 0xffc. So why does the Info screen say 0xfba is the software and the System Test screen say it is 0xffc? It's like there are two different software versions for the C61K.


----------



## WestDC

Your genie is ffc your mini is fba


----------



## jpenneck

Is the "whole home DVR service" required with the Genie 2 / HS17 ? I used to have multiple DVRs (2 HR24 + 1 HR44 + 1 mini) which were recently replaced by a single Genie2/HS17 with 4 minis. I assumed the service & fee would be removed from my account, but it was not. When I contacted DTV customer service they tried to tell me that the Genie Minis are now considered DVRs. This is clearly incorrect as they do not record anything themselves, they just control the HS17. The optional whole home DVR service was intended to share content between DVRs, but now I only have a single DVR. 

What has anyone else experienced ? By their logic, my cell phone is a DVR as well because it can schedule recordings via the Directv app...


----------



## slice1900

Yes whole home service is what allows the Genie and clients to communicate. It is required on any package that includes a Genie. Theoretically it wouldn't be needed if you had a single HR54 and no clients or RVU TVs, but unless you have been a customer for a long time that fee isn't separately broken out on your bill. And they might charge it anyway since their billing system might not account for long time customers who have a single Genie and nothing else.


----------



## inkahauts

Your Whole Home Service fee combined with your current dvr fee is just a discount off the required newer DVR fee that is 15 a month for anyone with a genie or who has signed up with DIRECTV in the last what, 5 years or so. You are saving $2 a month over the current regular fee.


----------



## jpenneck

Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## rjhseven

I’m getting a new install with genie 17 and 4 other receivers; is there a short, concise post or page that explains how this setup works with 5 4K TVs? I’ve been with Directv for 25 years but I’ve had the HR24-700 and C61 pair along with a backup old HR24-500 stand alone. TIA for any help.


----------



## P Smith

rjhseven said:


> how this setup works with 5 4K TVs?


at beginning of the thread,in a manual or in discussion , you can read: HS17 support only *TWO* UHD TV and five HD TV


----------



## patmurphey

P Smith said:


> at beginning of the thread,in a manual or in discussion , you can read: HS17 support only *TWO* UHD TV and five HD TV


Is it not correct that it will support 5 (or 7) 4k TVs, but can only play 4k on 2 at a time.


----------



## studechip

patmurphey said:


> Is it not correct that it will support 5 (or 7) 4k TVs, but can only play 4k on 2 at a time.


Support or play is semantics. You can play only two 4k streams at one time regardless of how many C61k clients you have.


----------



## rjhseven

Given I have 2 up in game room and 3 down it should not be a problem as long as it supports all of them. Content not there yet anyway; what model number is typically sent out with Genie?


----------



## dhkinil

I have an HS17 and three wireless clients. One client, soon to be removed because it goes to an RVU Samsung (that Directv could not figure out that it had RVU) which is near the HS17 and suffers connection problems. I believe it is because they are too close to each other, a problem soon to be made worse once the RVU is activated because there is no way I can place the Genie 2 further from the tv in the family room. I would like to move the genie 2 to my office. At present there is a DECA in my office, it has a coax cable that comes up from an "msplit ar1-043" (may be a slightly different model, not easy to read where it is located) and the ethernet cable that comes from my router. The genie 2 is connected to a second coax cable that comes off the splitter into my family room. I wonder if it is possible to connect the Genie to the cable that comes off the splitter and the router and have everything work. I could call Directv, but my general sense is that advice here is better than what they give much of the time!!!

Thanks

DK


----------



## Pete Johnson

Trying figure out how hs17 connects to c61k and then to tv. I only see one coax input on both.


----------



## P Smith

Pete Johnson said:


> Trying figure out how hs17 connects to c61k and then to tv. I only see one coax input on both.


any clue taken from HS17 manual posted in the thread ?


----------



## compnurd

Pete Johnson said:


> Trying figure out how hs17 connects to c61k and then to tv. I only see one coax input on both.


Units are linked via a splitter and the C61k connects to the tv via hdmi


----------



## 1953

With all due respect, read the manual. Hopefully, it is addressed. Good luck.


----------



## P Smith

1953 said:


> With all due respect, read the manual. Hopefully, it is addressed. Good luck.


Old good wise rule: RTFM !


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Manuals? We don’t need no stinking manuals! 

Do they even come with manuals anymore? And isn’t that what we’re all here for, to help each other out? 

I always thought they should have put a coax output pass through on the HS17 for when it’s at the same TV as the client, no need for a splitter and extra cables.


----------



## Bigg

TheRatPatrol said:


> I always thought they should have put a coax output pass through on the HS17 for when it's at the same TV as the client, no need for a splitter and extra cables.


Then instead of being confused about not having two coax ports, they'd be confused about which coax port to use! Always something!


----------



## HoTat2

TheRatPatrol said:


> ...
> 
> I always thought they should have put a coax output pass through on the HS17 for when it's at the same TV as the client, no need for a splitter and extra cables.


Yeah ...

Like with the WVB and WiFi capable CCK, with the traditional terminator cap hanging on a chain for single ended use.

But as the previous poster said ...

People will even get that confused and complain about it I guess ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

I would have thought it would be relatively inexpensive to keep the HR54 model, with a built-in receiver. If they are concerned about obsolescence, they could always allow for future disablement of the built-in receiver via software.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> Then instead of being confused about not having two coax ports, they'd be confused about which coax port to use! Always something!


I guess if they designed it so it essentially had the splitter built in, it wouldn't matter which port you plugged what in.


----------



## slice1900

Bigg said:


> I would have thought it would be relatively inexpensive to keep the HR54 model, with a built-in receiver. If they are concerned about obsolescence, they could always allow for future disablement of the built-in receiver via software.


How would that work, sending an email to customers "because we have determined it is now obsolete, we are going to disable the HDMI output on your HR54 soon, please contact Directv 1-800-HUH-WTF to order a new client to put on the TV currently connected to your HR54".


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> I guess if they designed it so it essentially had the splitter built in, it wouldn't matter which port you plugged what in.


Except one of the ports would need to be power passing to feed the LNB, and the other non-power passing. So still room for confusion.

But the HS17 is designed to be placed someplace other than at a particular TV location, which is probably the primary reason there isn't a coax output for a client.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

carl6 said:


> Except one of the ports would need to be power passing to feed the LNB, and the other non-power passing. So still room for confusion.
> 
> But the HS17 is designed to be placed someplace other than at a particular TV location, which is probably the primary reason there isn't a coax output for a client.


You could mark one in and the other out, or mark one red indicating power? I don't know I just thought for ease of installation.

I wonder how many have the HS17 and client at the same TV, especially if there's only one TV?


----------



## Bill Broderick

TheRatPatrol said:


> I wonder how many have the HS17 and client at the same TV, especially if there's only one TV?


My guess is that the condition of the HS-17 being installed near the TV is far more likely to be the case of system upgrades from system that was already SWM based. But, when installing new systems, my guess is that it will be far more likely that the HS-17 will be installed nearer to a router than a TV.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## studechip

Bill Broderick said:


> My guess is that the condition of the HS-17 being installed near the TV is far more likely to be the case of system upgrades from system that was already SWM based. But, when installing new systems, my guess is that it will be far more likely that the HS-17 will be installed nearer to a router than a TV.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


If and when Directv allows new customers to have an HS17.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> How would that work, sending an email to customers "because we have determined it is now obsolete, we are going to disable the HDMI output on your HR54 soon, please contact Directv 1-800-HUH-WTF to order a new client to put on the TV currently connected to your HR54".


It would work with the level of functionality it had when shipped unless someone wanted it disabled (to avoid an outlet fee if all your TVs are, say, HDMI 3.0).


----------



## Grafixguy

TheRatPatrol said:


> You could mark one in and the other out, or mark one red indicating power? I don't know I just thought for ease of installation.
> 
> I wonder how many have the HS17 and client at the same TV, especially if there's only one TV?


<Raises hand>

Coax comes into a 2-way splitter and then one each to the client and the HS17. Also into the HS17 is Ethernet. Nice and clean.

The HS17, it should be remembered, is an all-in-one box. No DECAs needed; no power inserter needed.


----------



## Wolfmanjohn

My HS17 is on the shelf of the office closet, opposite the modem/router; nice, clean, and out of sight.


----------



## slice1900

If you wanted to put the HS17 next to your TV but don't want the extra coax going to the client, get a wireless client. No worries about connection speed that way. There's no wireless 4K client today, but one is coming sometime this year (the C71KW on the FCC site)


----------



## Bigg

Wired is always preferable to wireless.


----------



## carl6

Bigg said:


> Wired is *always* preferable to wireless.


There, fixed it for you


----------



## slice1900

Humax filed some updated paperwork with the FCC for a "class II permitted change" to the HS17: FCC ID O6ZHS17 Digital Satellite Receiver(Headless DVR Server) by Humax Co., Ltd.. They made a few minor tweaks but a few interesting ones also.

1. changed from Broadcom 45208 to 45308 tuner. I wonder if Broadcom encouraged Directv to switch so they could stop making the 45208, or if Directv deliberately chose to switch. They wouldn't be doing it for the DVB-S2X support the 45308 adds, but maybe something came along for the ride like hardware support for whatever non-standard method of transponder bonding Directv plans to use so they don't have to do it in software.

2. changing USB port from USB 2 to USB 3

3. removing the "eSTAT connector". I assume they mean the eSATA connector. Coupled with the switch to USB 3, I think people who want to connect an external drive are going to have to start using USB rather than eSATA. Good thing few people take advantage of this, it will be confusing to have some HS17s with eSATA and others with USB.

Seeing this now probably means we shouldn't expect to see the HS27 in the near future. Why bother to tweak the HS17 design if you are about to release its successor?

They also have a "HR54R1" that was applied right before the new year. There isn't enough info to see what they did, but I wouldn't be surprised if it got the same changes. I'm a little surprised they are still manufacturing the HR54, but I guess they aren't ready to go all-in on the HS17 just yet. Probably waiting for the HS27 and its Android TV based clients to be ready first.


----------



## CraigerM

I wonder how soon the FCC site will post something on the HS-27? Isn't everyone two or three years between new servers?


----------



## slice1900

The FCC site publishes when they get a submission, but companies don't have to submit until they are release to release a product (it needs approval to get that "FCC" logo on it that lets it use radio frequencies like wifi)

There isn't much they could, would or should change between the HS17 and HS27, so I'm sure they could release the HS27 anytime they wanted to. It is probably waiting on getting those new Android TV based clients ready, which could take a while since that's a pretty big change in direction for Directv. Given that they've submitted tweaks for both the HR54 and HS17 designs in the past month, I wouldn't hold my breath to see the HS27 appear on the site until the latter half of this year, or maybe next year. General release appears to be very unlikely to happen this year.


----------



## CraigerM

I think I remember one person in here said he heard a rumor about the HR54 getting a software update to support 4k. Could that be the HR-54 R1?However, I forgot if you said they can't do that with a software update for 4k?


----------



## HoTat2

It would need both software and quite a substantial hardware change as well to output 4K and not just act as a live recording and pass-thru for it ...

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## CraigerM

HoTat2 said:


> It would need both software and quite a substantial hardware change as well to output 4K and not just act as a live recording and pass-thru for it ...
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


Good point. I forgot about the hardware requirements for 4k.


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> Humax filed some updated paperwork with the FCC for a "class II permitted change" to the HS17: FCC ID O6ZHS17 Digital Satellite Receiver(Headless DVR Server) by Humax Co., Ltd.. They made a few minor tweaks but a few interesting ones also.
> 
> 1. changed from Broadcom 45208 to 45308 tuner. I wonder if Broadcom encouraged Directv to switch so they could stop making the 45208, or if Directv deliberately chose to switch. They wouldn't be doing it for the DVB-S2X support the 45308 adds, but maybe something came along for the ride like hardware support for whatever non-standard method of transponder bonding Directv plans to use so they don't have to do it in software.
> 
> 2. changing USB port from USB 2 to USB 3
> 
> 3. removing the "eSTAT connector". I assume they mean the eSATA connector. Coupled with the switch to USB 3, I think people who want to connect an external drive are going to have to start using USB rather than eSATA. Good thing few people take advantage of this, it will be confusing to have some HS17s with eSATA and others with USB.
> 
> Seeing this now probably means we shouldn't expect to see the HS27 in the near future. Why bother to tweak the HS17 design if you are about to release its successor?
> 
> They also have a "HR54R1" that was applied right before the new year. There isn't enough info to see what they did, but I wouldn't be surprised if it got the same changes. I'm a little surprised they are still manufacturing the HR54, but I guess they aren't ready to go all-in on the HS17 just yet. Probably waiting for the HS27 and its Android TV based clients to be ready first.


Wonder how quick this gets into the wild and what the model number will be.. I would assume there will need to be a tweak so they even know what it is


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> Wonder how quick this gets into the wild and what the model number will be.. I would assume there will need to be a tweak so they even know what it is


It will be the same model name. There will be two versions of "HS17-500", one with an eSATA port and USB2 and one without an eSATA port but with USB3. Thanks for the unnecessary confusion, Directv!


----------



## compnurd

slice1900 said:


> It will be the same model name. There will be two versions of "HS17-500", one with an eSATA port and USB2 and one without an eSATA port but with USB3. Thanks for the unnecessary confusion, Directv!


-They are going to have to tweak it someway even for there own inventory system.. It could be as simple as HS17-500R2


----------



## P Smith

compnurd said:


> -They are going to have to tweak it someway even for there own inventory system.. It could be as simple as HS17-500R2


or HS17R1-xxx


----------



## slice1900

AFAIK the product designation listed on the label has to match what is in the FCC's files, which is why the entries all include the "label and location" with a photo of the label.

So I'm willing to bet these 'updated' models still show HS17-500 on the label, and the only way you'll be able to tell the difference is looking for the eSATA port. Directv would presumably be able to tell which is which (if they even care) by serial number. If it was going to be called something different in Directv's systems then it would be called HS17R1-500 like the C61R2 and now HR54R1 got their own 'revision' names. Perhaps those had changes significant enough they need different firmware and thus earned new names, while the HS17's changes were so minor it gets identical firmware to the 'original' HS17-500.


----------



## compnurd

Have we found out any differences with these C61R2’s


----------



## slice1900

compnurd said:


> Have we found out any differences with these C61R2's


No clue, I haven't seen them on the FCC site. There was a class II permissive change for Humax's C61-500 last summer, but it shouldn't have resulted in an "R2" - all it changed was some insulation on the bottom plate, a diode, an inductor and a common mode filter. Nothing that would have necessitated giving it different firmware. Much smaller changes than what the HS17-500's class II permissive change was.

Also noticed that their class II permissive change letter for the HS17 explicitly states "the model name shall be same as before". It won't get an Rx designation.


----------



## y2jdmbfan

On my C61K in my basement, I am pretty sure the guide data is messed up, especially on channel 104. Is the guide data stored on the C61K or the HS17? Easy way to clear the guide and force a re-download?


----------



## P Smith

y2jdmbfan said:


> On my C61K in my basement, I am pretty sure the guide data is messed up, especially on channel 104. Is the guide data stored on the C61K or the HS17? Easy way to clear the guide and force a re-download?



on the server
CLEARMYBOX


----------



## inkahauts

Why do you think it’s messed up?


----------



## Scoob8888

Got an offer to replace both HR 34's with the HS 17 for $99. Is it worth it to do it now or wait until my annual August call on their NFL package and hope for better ?


----------



## studechip

Scoob8888 said:


> Got an offer to replace both HR 34's with the HS 17 for $99. Is it worth it to do it now or wait until my annual August call on their NFL package and hope for better ?


You have two HR34s?


----------



## inkahauts

Yeah what exact equipment do you have. Almost no one has two HR34...


----------



## 1953

I think my Mini Genie or HS17 experiences occasional minute picture freezes and skips. Note I stated minute. Are these known issues? Other than those minor issues the HS17 and mini genies are great.


----------



## nickff

Called about 4k...CSR told me to avoid the HS17 at all costs...but would set me up for one if I want. Should I avoid the HS17? I would like both my TVs to be able to display Directv's 4k content. Or (since I have to re-up for two years) wait until a more stable unit is released?


----------



## P Smith

sure, you could wait for new box, but so far we have seen a mention of HS27 and HS37 (no ETA !) that will tell you they are servers from same line as HS17
take it - DTV well know slowly polish FW [SW] - and keep your hope for improvments


----------



## Grafixguy

nickff said:


> Called about 4k...CSR told me to avoid the HS17 at all costs...but would set me up for one if I want. Should I avoid the HS17? I would like both my TVs to be able to display Directv's 4k content. Or (since I have to re-up for two years) wait until a more stable unit is released?


I've had one since August. No complaints at all with the wired 4K clients.


----------



## nickff

Grafixguy said:


> I've had one since August. No complaints at all with the wired 4K clients.


So the HS17 wirelessly connects to the 4k clients and then the 4k clients are wired to the displays?

Is there a First Look for the HS17? My search isn't returning much.


----------



## Bill Broderick

nickff said:


> So the HS17 wirelessly connects to the 4k clients and then the 4k clients are wired to the displays?
> 
> Is there a First Look for the HS17? My search isn't returning much.


Nope. No wireless 4k clients yet. The current 4K clients connect to the DECA cloud via coax.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

the "hs17-100" thread ! from beginning !


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

nickff said:


> Called about 4k...CSR told me to avoid the HS17 at all costs...but would set me up for one if I want. Should I avoid the HS17? I would like both my TVs to be able to display Directv's 4k content. Or (since I have to re-up for two years) wait until a more stable unit is released?


That's crazy. I have an HS17-100, and my wife and I really like it. The only issue I had was with OnDemand, but that was corrected with the most recent software update.


----------



## Dangerfish

I'm having an upgrade performed today. When I called a week ago to see what kind of deal I could get, they actually refused to give me an HS17. They said it was nothing but trouble for now so they set me up with the HR54.


----------



## P Smith

if you would read the forum and apply common sense, you would know it better then the clueless CSR


----------



## Scoob8888

inkahauts said:


> Yeah what exact equipment do you have. Almost no one has two HR34...


Sorry about that. The older one is HR24-500. Upgrade on both for $99 + $49 installation or wait for NFL Sunday Ticket call in August and hope for better is the issue.


----------



## 1953

Our HS17 and Mini-Genies are functioning without issue. There have been very minute video stoppage and skips but not enough to be concerned.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

I'm guessing that CSR won't be with DirecTV for long. All calls are recorded and many are probably reviewed. If a supervisor hears that, she'll can that CSR, and rightly so. It was bogus information.


----------



## SledgeHammer

slice1900 said:


> If you wanted to put the HS17 next to your TV but don't want the extra coax going to the client, get a wireless client. No worries about connection speed that way. There's no wireless 4K client today, but one is coming sometime this year (the C71KW on the FCC site)


Here's my setup & wiring:

Street -> RG10 -> box on the corner of my house

Office has RG6 run straight shot to the box (used for cable internet) -- might go through the attic for a service loop, but I forget... router and cable modem are in the office. Router is a AC router.

From the builder, the 3 upstairs bedrooms had straight shot RG6 runs to the box with the asterisk that they had small service loops going through the attic. When I got DirecTV, we cut the service loops in the attic and connected them to a multi-switch in the attic.

Living room is where the TV is at, I had the builder put in 2 RG6 runs to the attic. Originally I had a multiplexor on one of the runs to add in OTA, but when they came out with SWM, I got rid of the multiplexor and used one of the runs for OTA and one for DirecTV.

So how would I use the HS17 in my case? I'd have to run a second RG6 from the office to the living room, no?


----------



## SledgeHammer

CraigerM said:


> I think I remember one person in here said he heard a rumor about the HR54 getting a software update to support 4k. Could that be the HR-54 R1?However, I forgot if you said they can't do that with a software update for 4k?


Impossible. The HR54 doesn't have HDMI 2.x.


----------



## Bill Broderick

SledgeHammer said:


> Here's my setup & wiring:
> 
> Street -> RG10 -> box on the corner of my house
> 
> Office has RG6 run straight shot to the box (used for cable internet) -- might go through the attic for a service loop, but I forget... router and cable modem are in the office. Router is a AC router.
> 
> From the builder, the 3 upstairs bedrooms had straight shot RG6 runs to the box with the asterisk that they had small service loops going through the attic. When I got DirecTV, we cut the service loops in the attic and connected them to a multi-switch in the attic.
> 
> Living room is where the TV is at, I had the builder put in 2 RG6 runs to the attic. Originally I had a multiplexor on one of the runs to add in OTA, but when they came out with SWM, I got rid of the multiplexor and used one of the runs for OTA and one for DirecTV.
> 
> So how would I use the HS17 in my case? I'd have to run a second RG6 from the office to the living room, no?


You're existing wiring is fine for an HS-17. They will likely place it at one of the TV's that you already have and add a splitter at that location to supper both the HS-17 and the mini.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bill Broderick said:


> You're existing wiring is fine for an HS-17. They will likely place it at one of the TV's that you already have and add a splitter at that location to supper both the HS-17 and the mini.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I only have the one TV in the living room and due to the brilliant form factor of the HS17, it takes a lot of room vertically which I don't have  (built in media niche shelves). I remember reading it shuts off if you lay it down? Sheesh. Brilliant.


----------



## Bill Broderick

SledgeHammer said:


> I only have the one TV in the living room and due to the brilliant form factor of the HS17, it takes a lot of room vertically which I don't have  (built in media niche shelves). I remember reading it shuts off if you lay it down? Sheesh. Brilliant.


If I read correctly, the rg6 in each of the bedroooms goes up to the attic where the multiswitch is, right? If so, the HS-17 can be installed in one of the bedrooms.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## SledgeHammer

Bill Broderick said:


> If I read correctly, the rg6 in each of the bedroooms goes up to the attic where the multiswitch is, right? If so, the HS-17 can be installed in one of the bedrooms.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Wait, I'm confused lol... so my dish has 4 lines coming off of it (I have a SWiM multi-switch, but classic LNBs). Those go into the multi-switch IN. Then a multi-switch OUT goes to the 3 bedrooms. You're saying that the HS17 would just be hooked to one of those OUTs and a client would be hooked to a different OUT? The HS17 serves the clients through the multi-switch?


----------



## Bill Broderick

SledgeHammer said:


> Wait, I'm confused lol... so my dish has 4 lines coming off of it (I have a SWiM multi-switch, but classic LNBs). Those go into the multi-switch IN. Then a multi-switch OUT goes to the 3 bedrooms. You're saying that the HS17 would just be hooked to one of those OUTs and a client would be hooked to a different OUT? The HS17 serves the clients through the multi-switch?


Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

nickff said:


> So the HS17 wirelessly connects to the 4k clients and then the 4k clients are wired to the displays?
> 
> Is there a First Look for the HS17? My search isn't returning much.


4K clients are all wired only. No wireless. And the csr is foolish to say that. Most people would be perfectly happy with a hs17 over an hr54. Depend so how you use your system


----------



## HoTat2

Bill Broderick said:


> Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


To be more accurate ...

The HS17 serves the clients over the individual outlet ports of a SWiM splitter which both are connected to.

Whereas the input to the splitter is connected to one of the outputs of the SWiM multiswitch.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

SledgeHammer said:


> Wait, I'm confused lol... so my dish has 4 lines coming off of it (I have a SWiM multi-switch, but classic LNBs). Those go into the multi-switch IN. Then a multi-switch OUT goes to the 3 bedrooms. You're saying that the HS17 would just be hooked to one of those OUTs and a client would be hooked to a different OUT? The HS17 serves the clients through the multi-switch?


If you get an HS17 you have to have SWM, so they'll replace your LNB with a reverse band SWM LNB with one output, replace that multiswitch in your attic with a SWM splitter, and as the others said you could put your HS17 anywhere that had coax connected to that splitter such as one of the bedrooms.

Even if there was a wireless 4K client available now I'd do it this way because wired is always more reliable than wireless. Wireless should IMHO be reserved only for places where it is impractical to run either coax or ethernet, or if you have a client you will move often (like outside on nice days, or from a kid's room to a guest room when the in-laws visit, or whatever)


----------



## Bill Broderick

HoTat2 said:


> To be more accurate ...
> 
> The HS17 serves the clients over the individual outlet ports of a SWiM splitter which both are connected to.
> 
> Whereas the input to the splitter is connected to one of the outputs of the SWiM multiswitch.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


Isn't the multi-switch actually acting as "the router", while the splitter is just facilitating the multiplication of wires?

A SWM16, connected to two receivers, one from each output with no green label splitters) would work fine in ajlti room environment.

I always envisioned MRV with the signal from the server traveling back to the multiswitch, with data saying what client the stream is for, and the multiswitch translating that date to the correct node for the client.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

A SWM16 is merely bridging DECA over the two SWM outputs, it has no "smarts" to enable it to tell what client it should go to.

The reality is much more mundane, I'm afraid. When one DECA node sends data to another DECA node it shouts REALLY LOUD (MoCA/DECA output power is around 0 dbm, which is about 1000x "louder" than the SWM channels output by the SWM16) so that all DECA nodes can hear it, and the one the data was intended for receives it while the rest ignore it.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> A SWM16 is merely bridging DECA over the two SWM outputs, it has no "smarts" to enable it to tell what client it should go to.
> 
> The reality is much more mundane, I'm afraid. When one DECA node sends data to another DECA node it shouts REALLY LOUD (MoCA/DECA output power is around 0 dbm, which is about 1000x "louder" than the SWM channels output by the SWM16) so that all DECA nodes can hear it, and the one the data was intended for receives it while the rest ignore it.


Yeah ...

The only "smarts" involved are in the DECA nodes themselves (internal or external), which are MoCA-to-ethernet bridges. And like all packet bridges only allow packets to cross them that have destination MAC addresses in their packet headers which match any receiver or client MAC addresses connected to the outgoing side of the receiving bridge.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bigg

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I'm guessing that CSR won't be with DirecTV for long. All calls are recorded and many are probably reviewed. If a supervisor hears that, she'll can that CSR, and rightly so. It was bogus information.


You're saying the CSR was wrong about the HS-17 having problems and to go with the HR54 instead? That's literally what dozens upon dozens of posts in this thread say.


----------



## P Smith

it wasn't HS17 itself problems - it's unstable FW; BTW hiccups happened and with HR54 same time, perhaps you need start reading all complains about it, then the count will be even


----------



## Bigg

P Smith said:


> it wasn't HS17 itself problems - it's unstable FW; BTW hiccups happened and with HR54 same time, perhaps you need start reading all complains about it, then the count will be even


Fair enough, but given that the HR54 has had all the bugs worked out, the HS17 is just coming through that process, the CSR isn't entirely wrong.


----------



## Bill Broderick

Bigg said:


> Fair enough, but given that the HR54 has had all the bugs worked out, the HS17 is just coming through that process, the CSR isn't entirely wrong.


The HR54 has experienced that same bugs that the HS-17 has. The problem is the updated firmware that both of them have received. The CSR wasn't entirely wrong in telling you that there are problems with the HS-17. But, he WAS entirely wrong when he didn't tell you that the same exact bugs exist in the HR54 too.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

Bigg said:


> Fair enough, but given that the HR54 has had all the bugs worked out, the HS17 is just coming through that process, the CSR isn't entirely wrong.


Yeah, the hs17 is no more or less buggy than an hr54 from every report I have read about actual bugs... my hs17 works great... I don't by the csr for a heart beat and I'd suggest an hs17 to most people depending on how they use their system.


----------



## HoTat2

Bill Broderick said:


> The HR54 has experienced that same bugs that the HS-17 has. The problem is the updated firmware that both of them have received. The CSR wasn't entirely wrong in telling you that there are problems with the HS-17. But, he WAS entirely wrong when he didn't tell you that the same exact bugs exist in the HR54 too.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I guess so ...

FWIW, on my last service call a few weeks ago the tech. stated his biggest customer complaints and wasted truck rolls are for;

1) The HS17 performance problems ...

2) The new GUI ...

Both of which he has to painstakingly explain to the usual non-techie customers that he can do nothing about as they are FW related and DIRECTV engineers must address.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

^^^
That's true - the quality of DirecTV's software engineering and testing has dropped significantly since the AT&T takeover. It's professional malpractice. 

Plus, the field techs are not informed about current software defects. Example - a skilled tech came out to resolve my issue with no On Demand. He tried everything, and nothing worked. He was going to swap out my HS-17.

Due to info on dlsreports.com's DirecTV thread, I discovered that the lack of On Demand was a defect on 0x1001 and was resolved by 0x1036. I woke up one day at 5am to pull down 0x1036, and On Demand worked immediately.

Why the heck aren't the field techs kept into the loop?


----------



## Grafixguy

Bigg said:


> You're saying the CSR was wrong about the HS-17 having problems and to go with the HR54 instead? That's literally what dozens upon dozens of posts in this thread say.


Despite 107 pages I'd bet there are not dozens upon dozens of individual users complaining about show stopping issues. If that CSR worked for me, he/she, would either be fired or sent for some serious training in how to do their job.


----------



## MysteryMan

Grafixguy said:


> Despite 107 pages I'd bet there are not dozens upon dozens of individual users complaining about show stopping issues. If that CSR worked for me, he/she, would either be fired or sent for some serious training in how to do their job.


I agree. The membership of this site is less than 1% of DIRECTV's customers. I'm not saying people aren't experiencing issues but I doubt it's across the board as some would like us to think.


----------



## slice1900

Didn't people complain about a lot of the same sort of stuff with the HD GUI at first and then they slowly fixed it? Judging from my experience with Directv's software "quality" it has always been terrible, so AT&T could hardly have made it worse.


----------



## 1953

My two cents. Installers in general are under trained. I paid for custom install for AV then after the fact discovered oversight, etc. Every level, garde and product line promises knowledgeable techs but who we get are sometime far from that level. Oh, don’t you love their out the door remarks about call backs hurting them and I need all top ratings on my review.........


----------



## carl6

I will jump in and agree that (1) the HS17 is not all bad. I've had one for quite some time and it is very reliable. My wife and I are both satisfied with it, and (2) a great many of the complaints you see are with regard to the new GUI, which is not limited to the HS17 (applies to all Genies). I should add (3) a number of complaints, specific to the HS17, are related to not being able to specify which channel is used to record a showing, which has resulted in some people (myself included) not getting recordings they expected to get. So indeed there are some problems for some users, which are getting fixed. With the exception of the last of those, they apply to any Genie, not just the HS17.

Is the HS17 perfect? No, but it continues to improve just as every product DirecTV has released continued to improve over time. Sadly, most companies rush new hardware to release before it is really ready for release (marketing versus engineering - marketing normally wins). I don't advocate or justify it, but do recognize it happens. Thus, I agree it is often times a good idea to wait for a while before accepting the "latest and greatest" model offered. But I also think the HS17 has reached a sufficient level of maturity that it isn't a dangerous choice.


----------



## texasbrit

Your issue (3) above, not being able to specify a channel, applies to the Hr44 and HR54 also, it's a problem with the new GUI and so applies to all the Genies.


----------



## Bill Tartaglia

I apologize but I did not read all of the posts in this forum to find this issue but was hoping others had seen this.

I have a LG OLED C7 connected to a Sony STRDN1080 amp then to a C61k client through an HS17. I have all new Blue Jeans HDMI cables.

The issue is that occasionally the C61k client fails to communicate properly with the c7 through the amp. I get an error message on the c7 from the C61 stating that I don't have a 4k TV. It unchecks the 4k box in the display setting menu of the C61 and will stay there until I navigate to it and turn it back on. It does this almost every time after I turn the amp and C7 on and go to any of the 4k channels 104, 105, or 106. It doesn't matter how long I have had everything powered up. The first time I go to one of the Directv 4k channels this happens. Once I go through this dance, each time I go back to one of the 4k channels it works ok. Its only the first time after a power up that is the issue.

I never have any problem on other 4k sources, for instance when I go to Netflix or Amazon Prime 4k using native apps on the LG OLED, or through my UHD player. Has anyone else seen this? Its slowly making me crazy trying to solve it.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

@Bill Tartaglia - does it work without the Sony in the middle? If so, it's probably the Sony.

PS - That Sony isn't an amplifier - it's an integrated receiver.


----------



## billt1111

wilbur_the_goose said:


> @Bill Tartaglia - does it work without the Sony in the middle? If so, it's probably the Sony.
> 
> PS - That Sony isn't an amplifier - it's an integrated receiver.


Yes. It is not hard to run the HDMI wire around the integrated receiver so I did it for a few hours until I got it to happen and then put it back. No one has seen the 4k option on the C61 drop out?


----------



## P Smith

billt1111 said:


> No one has seen the 4k option on the C61 drop out?


there was many posts about it ... the client getting not finished HDCP negotiation in time frame and remove the 4k check; connect HDMI between c61k and tv, use fiber cable between c61k and avr


----------



## Fab55

About 2 weeks ago I upgraded from an HR54/C61k/HR24 set up to an HS17-500/C61k-700/two C61-700's. CSR suggested a wireless install, I called BS and had the installation tech do a wired install (I have 1 4k TV). Not sure why anyone would want wireless, unless the location is completely cut off from being wired. Install tech kept the Moca/Ethernet adapter, which I removed and plugged my Ethernet cable directly into the HS17. Personally, I feel the HS17 is much more stable & reliable than the HR54/C61k. Less issues overall, and quite a few bugs seem to be gone. Very well could be that the latest FW was close to my install date, but I'm happy with the upgrade. The only issue I can't seem to get figured out is my DTV app not seeing the HS17, I can't access my DVR via the app. HS17 is hardwired directly to the router, no wireless, same set up as the HR54, never had an issue.

Sent from my Google Pixelbook using Tapatalk


----------



## Reggie3

I had a interesting problem that started Monday. My HS17-100 started freezing a lot Also when watching a recorded program it did the same and if I hit fast forward it would immediately jump to live TV . I tried a reset but it didn't help. I tried unplugging the C61K with no luck. Same problem with both C61Ks. 

So I tried unplugging the HS17-100 for 30 seconds and it fixed everything and it seems remote responses work faster too


----------



## slice1900

billt1111 said:


> Yes. It is not hard to run the HDMI wire around the integrated receiver so I did it for a few hours until I got it to happen and then put it back. No one has seen the 4k option on the C61 drop out?


Are you leaving the C61K on all the time or are you turning it on when you turn on the other stuff? Some people have fixed their issues by disabling something in their TV menus that turns on the TV more quickly ('fast start' or something like that)

It may be the C61K isn't getting enough time to negotiate the HDCP 2.2 link, since 2.2 takes longer to negotiate than 1.x did. Having an AVR/amp/whatever you want to call it between the C61K and TV also makes it take longer.

Do you still have the same problems if you turned off the TV and AVR, wait a minute, and then turn them back on again? If so, maybe the problem is related to the C61K going into power saving mode (assuming you are leaving it on all the time) If so, try disabling power saving mode and see if that makes any difference.


----------



## makaiguy

Reggie3 said:


> So I tried unplugging the HS17-100 for 30 seconds and it fixed everything and it seems remote responses work faster too


These things are really nothing but special purpose computers. Once in a while you just gotta reboot 'em.


----------



## billt1111

slice1900 said:


> Are you leaving the C61K on all the time or are you turning it on when you turn on the other stuff? Some people have fixed their issues by disabling something in their TV menus that turns on the TV more quickly ('fast start' or something like that)
> 
> It may be the C61K isn't getting enough time to negotiate the HDCP 2.2 link, since 2.2 takes longer to negotiate than 1.x did. Having an AVR/amp/whatever you want to call it between the C61K and TV also makes it take longer.
> 
> Do you still have the same problems if you turned off the TV and AVR, wait a minute, and then turn them back on again? If so, maybe the problem is related to the C61K going into power saving mode (assuming you are leaving it on all the time) If so, try disabling power saving mode and see if that makes any difference.


Thanks for your help.

I do leave my C61K on all the time because I don't see a reason to turn it off. It does not seem to affect this issue whether I turn it off or on however. It will happen after watching something for hours, then switching to channel 104. Its always the first time I go to HDR content on the C61K. After it fails I can go back and forth as often as I want without fail. Then the process repeats itself the next day after a power off and on overnight. If it were a timing issue it would fail every time, not just the first time, HDR content from the C61k is sourced.

I am going to try again to connect the HDMI cable directly from the C61K to the LGOLED and feed audio back to the AVR using ARC to see if still occurs. Its been a few weeks since I tried that.


----------



## 1953

*Question:* Should I have the HS17 Setting for Audio>>Dolby Digital>>set to Dolby Audio? When watching TV the setting stays on Dolby Digital. When playing a 4K Disk will this setting automatically change to Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby Atmos or must I manually change to this setting?
*Problem:* If I set the option to "Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby Atmos" when I go back to the Dolby Audio Menu the option has changed to "Standard Audio". I am very confused.

*Reference:
My AV Components:*
4K DirecTV HS17 W/2 Mini Genies, Sony HT-ST 5000 Soundbar, Sony 4K UPB-X800 Blu-Ray Player, Sony 4K XBR-55X930E TV, Harmony Elite Remote Control
*Settings: * HS17>>Menu>>Settings>>Audio>>Dolby Audio.
*Options are:*

Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby Atmos

Dolby Audio
Standard Audio

Thank you.


----------



## 1953

I’m watching a science fiction TV movie and notice that in scenes with explosions, etc. realistic loud sounds are much more quiet/less dynamic. The movie is in Dolby Digital, Sound Field Set to Movie, Sub is set at 12. Could this be a missetting on the HS17 or where.........?

Comments please.


----------



## CraigerM

I have noticed that the audio is low on some movies even on my HR-44 and just using the TV speakers. I am not sure why that is?


----------



## 1953

Hmmm! I did just learned that my Sony HTST 5000 Soundbar’s Audio DRC (dynamic range compression) setting needed to changed from Auto to Off.

Thanks


----------



## 1953

Does the HS17 with Mini Genies utilize Audio DRC? I cannot find any mention of it anywhere. If so where it which menu is this setting?

Thanks


----------



## 1953

Am having occasional momentary picture freezing. Has anyone else had this issue?


----------



## gordon1fan

KyL416 said:


> The fact that we now have a ESPN3 app.


I have a HR44 and I haven't seen ESPN3 app. Did I miss a update?


----------



## jnelson2000

1953 said:


> Am having occasional momentary picture freezing. Has anyone else had this issue?


Since the last Genie update, yes. Either it freezes and have to change channels and back or just a black screen and never get video. Menus still work fine though. Urggg.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 1953

Our picture does come back


----------



## P Smith

gordon1fan said:


> I have a HR44 and I haven't seen ESPN3 app. Did I miss a update?


- the thread about HS17
- you must get FW version from Sysinfo screen of your DVR
- check latest version for your model at redh.com/dtv site
- post your question in appropriate thread


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> - ... *- check latest version for your model at redh.com/dtv site *
> ...


Well ... at least when the FW Watcher site is up anyway, which is increasingly rare nowadays.

As the site is down alot, especially lately like right now. And is therefore not reliable.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk


----------



## P Smith

you should know, Doug is belong to DTV and can't freely used own resources for such inside info 
unfortunately, no one (who does running own site) didn't offer to host the FW monitor server


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> you should know, Doug is belong to DTV and can't freely used own resources for such inside info
> unfortunately, no one (who does running own site) didn't offer to host the FW monitor server


I'm sure there would be plenty of volunteers here to serve it if that's an option, but it may use proprietary Directv knowledge to be able to interpret the firmware streams that he isn't able to release. For all we know it may see evidence of hardware Directv wants kept secret for now, which he deliberately filters out until they are ready to see the light of day...


----------



## P Smith

nay, he is hosting and processing already human readable data from clients in better form with storing in DB and using servlet to render web page (it was pages for historical data, shrug)


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> nay, he is hosting and processing already human readable data from clients in better form with storing in DB and using servlet to render web page (it was pages for historical data, shrug)


My understanding was that it was a PC with a tuner card that's interpreting data from the PIDs that carry the software. Similar to what is being done for the weekly transponder reports.

If you think he's using data that's accessible somewhere on the web and just saving historical information, please point to the source he's using.


----------



## P Smith

the data coming from a few (4) clients (could be running by one person from one location), redh just accumulate the data and present them in a form of web page
if you would run the client, you would see same data on your screen/log and could post them as you wish... or pump the data to redh site for all of us


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> the data coming from a few (4) clients (could be running by one person from one location), redh just accumulate the data and present them in a form of web page
> if you would run the client, you would see same data on your screen/log and could post them as you wish... or pump the data to redh site for all of us


This makes no sense. Clients don't have any way of knowing when an update is coming for say an H24-700. Heck, the H24-700 doesn't know when an update is in stream for it unless you do the 02468 thing. You are just making stuff up at this point.


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> This makes no sense. Clients don't have any way of knowing when an update is coming for say an H24-700. Heck, the H24-700 doesn't know when an update is in stream for it unless you do the 02468 thing. You are just making stuff up at this point.


Opposite - the clients does running TSreader with FWmonitor DLL 24/7, each FW tpn require one DSS sat card and one instance of TSr+FWm; the DLL parsing all announcements (push kind and secondary) from dedicated PIDs, then proceed to FW PIDs and pull info about mfg/model/version/size/etc then send the data in simple text form to redH site...


----------



## carl6

The term "client" is being used to reference two completely different items in this discussion.

The redh site obtains information from "clients" (not C31/41/61) that are running TSreader with FWmonitor DLL. These run on a PC and provide information to the redh server.

DirecTV "clients" are the C31, C41, C61 series devices that connect to a Genie server. They are not what are being used to support redh.

Doug created and implemented redh before he became a DirecTV employee. When he became an employee he obtained permission to continue to operate the site separate from his employment. There is no connection or link between redh and DirecTV other than the coincidence that Doug is an employee.

However, there are other factors that influence the availability of the site, which is why it is not always available.


----------



## rrbhokies

Does the H17 have the new GUI or the old one?


----------



## carl6

It has the new one. That is common among all Genies (except maybe HR34).


----------



## flavorguy

So - possibly the wrong thread...

I am attempting to have my HR-22 upgraded to a 4k . I am part of the upgrade program, which means that this will be done "no charge" (except for the 2 year re-up). This unit has been installed for approx 4 years. No changes to my satellite configuration has been made since this install. The HR-22 is hard wired to the satellite distribution block. It is part of a whole home DTV network. 

4k upgrade is for HT (projector) only. Rest of the house operates on a HR-44-500 with a video bridge with one genie.. A second HR-24-500 (hard wired) is in a bedroom. This is also connected the to the DTV whole home network.

So - 
1) which 4K unit do I request for my upgrade? The HR-54 or the HS-17? 
2) any specific satellite / LNB arrangement I have to request/order? 

Customer Service appears to be limited in what they can recommend and I don't want to blow an afternoon waiting for an installer and then finding out he doesn't have proper equipment.


----------



## studechip

flavorguy said:


> So - possibly the wrong thread...
> 
> I am attempting to have my HR-22 upgraded to a 4k . I am part of the upgrade program, which means that this will be done "no charge" (except for the 2 year re-up). This unit has been installed for approx 4 years. No changes to my satellite configuration has been made since this install. The HR-22 is hard wired to the satellite distribution block. It is part of a whole home DTV network.
> 
> 4k upgrade is for HT (projector) only. Rest of the house operates on a HR-44-500 with a video bridge with one genie.. A second HR-24-500 (hard wired) is in a bedroom. This is also connected the to the DTV whole home network.
> 
> So -
> 1) which 4K unit do I request for my upgrade? The HR-54 or the HS-17?
> 2) any specific satellite / LNB arrangement I have to request/order?
> 
> Customer Service appears to be limited in what they can recommend and I don't want to blow an afternoon waiting for an installer and then finding out he doesn't have proper equipment.


If you want to keep your other dvrs, and I strongly suggest you do, then the HR54 is the only choice since you can't have anything but clients with the HS17. If you want two 4k tvs, then you can only have the HS17 since the HR54 only does one.


----------



## carl6

You can't have two Genies, and if you get an HS17 you can't have anything other than clients. So to get 4K you are going to have to drop the HR44 and get either an HS17 and all clients, or an HR54 and some clients and perhaps keep your HR22 and HR24.

If I 'm counting right from your original post, you've got an HR44 plus one client, an HR22 and an HR24. That is 4 television locations (does that include the projector, or is it location 5?). To get 4K, you can keep the HR22 and the HR24 and get an HR54 with clients. The HR54 itself cannot supply 4K directly, only through a C61K client. So option 1 is to replace the HR44 with an HR54, keep everything else the same, and add a C61K for your 4K projector. Option 2 is to get an HS17 and all clients for your various TV locations (including the projector).


----------



## flavorguy

carl6 said:


> You can't have two Genies, and if you get an HS17 you can't have anything other than clients. So to get 4K you are going to have to drop the HR44 and get either an HS17 and all clients, or an HR54 and some clients and perhaps keep your HR22 and HR24.
> 
> If I 'm counting right from your original post, you've got an HR44 plus one client, an HR22 and an HR24. That is 4 television locations (does that include the projector, or is it location 5?). To get 4K, you can keep the HR22 and the HR24 and get an HR54 with clients. The HR54 itself cannot supply 4K directly, only through a C61K client. So option 1 is to replace the HR44 with an HR54, keep everything else the same, and add a C61K for your 4K projector. Option 2 is to get an HS17 and all clients for your various TV locations (including the projector).


Thanks for the advice guys... and I apologize for my lack of understanding how things tie together...

My set up:

-Basement - Projector4K -> HR22 (wanting to move to 4K service)
-Family Room - 1080P Plasma ->HR-44-500 w/ Video Bridge. Bridge feeds 2 Genies :kitchen TV and a bedroom TV
-Master Bedroom - 1080P Plasma ->HR-24

I now want to add one additional TV (1080 LED) to a basement workout room.

Total TV's needing service: 6 (5 X 1080 - 1 X 4K)


----------



## horace clark

Like carl6 says you can simply swap the hr44 for a hr54 and add a C61K and be done. However; your equipment is really old and if you want the latest and greatest directv has to offer than you should get an hs17 and 6 C61K’s all wired. The hr receivers are no longer being manufactured. Even the 54 is 4 years old already.


----------



## Bill Broderick

flavorguy said:


> Thanks for the advice guys... and I apologize for my lack of understanding how things tie together...
> 
> My set up:
> 
> -Basement - Projector4K -> HR22 (wanting to move to 4K service)
> -Family Room - 1080P Plasma ->HR-44-500 w/ Video Bridge. Bridge feeds 2 Genies :kitchen TV and a bedroom TV
> -Master Bedroom - 1080P Plasma ->HR-24
> 
> I now want to add one additional TV (1080 LED) to a basement workout room.
> 
> Total TV's needing service: 6 (5 X 1080 - 1 X 4K)


Just want to clarify terminology so that everybody is talking about the same thing. Your HR44 is a Genie. The boxes that you have in your kitchen and bedroom are clients (or minis). When you start telling people that you have 2 Genies, heads start to explode around here because DirecTV only allows one Genie (HR34, HR44, HR54 or HS17) on an account.

That having been said, if you want to retain your existing recording capacity, you can swap the HR44 for an HR54, you can move the HR22 in the basement to either the bedroom or kitchen and have a C61K client installed in the basement. If you're OK with reducing your recording capacity to 7 tuners, you can either keep the clients that you have and swap the HR22 for a C61K Client (you still need to replace the HR44 with an HR54) or you can get an HS17 and replace all 3 of your HR2x's with Clients, with a C61K being required in the basement.


----------



## flavorguy

My bad... the kitchen unit has a hard wired box ... only Genie is bedroom....

So how do I communicate my situation to DTV to guarantee the best set up? The last time I attempted the 4K upgrade, I waited the entire day, the tech shows up, and within 5 minutes tells me he can't do the install. He claimed I needed a new dish/LNB and since he was solo, he couldn't go on roof to change. 

I'd like to be able to fully discuss my options with someone at DTV who understands these type of more complex setups and not some random CSR... is there a separate tech service extension I should request?


----------



## Rich

flavorguy said:


> My bad... the kitchen unit has a hard wired box ... only Genie is bedroom....
> 
> So how do I communicate my situation to DTV to guarantee the best set up? The last time I attempted the 4K upgrade, I waited the entire day, the tech shows up, and within 5 minutes tells me he can't do the install. He claimed I needed a new dish/LNB and since he was solo, he couldn't go on roof to change.
> 
> *I'd like to be able to fully discuss my options with someone at DTV who understands these type of more complex setups and not some random CSR... is there a separate tech service extension I should request?*


You're better off finding that out here. Finding someone who has a clue at either ATT or D* is a crapshoot at best.

Rich


----------



## Bill Broderick

flavorguy said:


> My bad... the kitchen unit has a hard wired box ... only Genie is bedroom....
> 
> So how do I communicate my situation to DTV to guarantee the best set up? The last time I attempted the 4K upgrade, I waited the entire day, the tech shows up, and within 5 minutes tells me he can't do the install. He claimed I needed a new dish/LNB and since he was solo, he couldn't go on roof to change.
> 
> I'd like to be able to fully discuss my options with someone at DTV who understands these type of more complex setups and not some random CSR... is there a separate tech service extension I should request?


It sounds like your bigger issue is still going to be the dish. A few years ago, DirecTV became far more strict with enforcing rules that installers are not allowed to leave their ladder and go onto the roof to work on a dish. Is your dish located away from the edge of the roof for esthetic reasons or do you have tree issues? If the dish can't be relocated to a location accessible by ladder, you may be able to get an installers to send 2 guys and jump through all of the OSHA rules required to work on a roof. But, you may be out of luck.

If the dish is not an issue, I wouldn't worry about discussing the actual equipment with the CSR, as long as you've already made your decision about what you want to have installed and can clearly describe it to the CSR. If the dish is going to be an issue, make sure that you tell the CSR about it so it can be noted on the work order. That's the only chance that you have of getting that part of the installation done by DirecTV.

If the DirecTV installers refuse to go on the roof, then your only other option (besides doing it yourself) would be to hire a private contractor who can do it for you. They would probably be violating OSHA rules too. But, private guys are more likely to be willing to do so.


----------



## slice1900

Bill Broderick said:


> If the DirecTV installers refuse to go on the roof, then your only other option (besides doing it yourself) would be to hire a private contractor who can do it for you. They would probably be violating OSHA rules too. But, private guys are more likely to be willing to do so.


OSHA rules about fall protection don't apply to self-employed people, so "that guy" you call who has his own little company and does all his own work isn't violating any OSHA rules if he's up on a ladder without fall protection. But Directv/AT&T is a big company, so they will get cited. If it is a third party working for Directv then it would depend on whether that company is enforcing the rule.


----------



## Rich

slice1900 said:


> OSHA rules about fall protection don't apply to self-employed people, so "that guy" you call who has his own little company and does all his own work isn't violating any OSHA rules if he's up on a ladder without fall protection. But Directv/AT&T is a big company, so they will get cited. If it is a third party working for Directv then it would depend on whether that company is enforcing the rule.


The rules apply for any company that consists of a certain number of employees. Used to be seven, might have changed. The companies don't "enforce the rule", OSHA is the enforcement agency. It's up to the company to make sure employees conform to the OSHA regulations and understand the regulations.

Rich


----------

