# FF and Rewind Feature = horrible



## netPOSER (Jan 4, 2006)

What's the deal with this?

On TiVo you have the 'snap back' feature and on my old Dish DVR I had 30-second skip. 

This R15 is the worst. After 3 weeks with this unit I'm still unable to FF or Rewind to where I want to be. 

I've noticed a tip about hitting the pause button but even that is a pain.
If anyone has any tips please post here.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

You can try using the jump back button instead of play, or pause (but sometimes it jumps to the end even thought your hitting jump back). Also don't FF or Rewind over x2 or theres no telling where it will stop.


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## netPOSER (Jan 4, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> You can try using the jump back button instead of play, or pause (but sometimes it jumps to the end even thought your hitting jump back). Also don't FF or Rewind over x2 or theres no telling where it will stop.


Yeah, it's all messed up. I'm assuming they will fix this in a future update?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

netPOSER said:


> Yeah, it's all messed up. I'm assuming they will fix this in a future update?


That's the hope, I know they have lots to fix. Not sure if they'll fix everything in this update thought. But they are working on it.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Just remember that the snap back feature as it is on a Tivo based box will never be implemented because its patented by Tivo, noone else can use it without paying Tivo's going rate for the royalties....


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## donnaml98 (Jan 10, 2006)

I use the replay button. Sometimes after using the replay button, I notice I may not have pushed in time, so I just hit the button maybe once or twice more. Works great.


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

Like someone above said anything faster than 2x FF and it can lead to problems. I rarely have any problems with 2xFF and the replay button to stop. I only use the 3-4xFF when I dont care where it stops and just want to FF.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> Just remember that the snap back feature as it is on a Tivo based box will never be implemented because its patented by Tivo, noone else can use it without paying Tivo's going rate for the royalties....


I'm pretty sure my UTV did this. I'd hit play it would go back a little bit before where i hit play. Never had problem like i do with the R15.


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## DesignDawg (Jan 8, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I'm pretty sure my UTV did this. I'd hit play it would go back a little bit before where i hit play. Never had problem like i do with the R15.


It most certainly did. As does every DVD player I own. All this "TiVo owns the patent to the world, no one can breathe in it without paying them licensing fees" is such BS. Sure, TiVo has some huge, broad patents, but they have stopped no one to date.

Ricky


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

DesignDawg said:


> It most certainly did. As does every DVD player I own. All this "TiVo owns the patent to the world, no one can breathe in it without paying them licensing fees" is such BS. Sure, TiVo has some huge, broad patents, but they have stopped no one to date.
> 
> Ricky


That's what i thought. I've just hear people claim this before too and wasn't sure what there talking about. The only issue I ever had with the UTV was FF and Rewind getting stuck. I loved that it did the autocorrect, I very rarely had to use the skip back button.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

DesignDawg said:


> It most certainly did. As does every DVD player I own. All this "TiVo owns the patent to the world, no one can breathe in it without paying them licensing fees" is such BS. Sure, TiVo has some huge, broad patents, but they have stopped no one to date.
> 
> Ricky


But... what it boils down to is this:

1) They have the patten (and for this one, AutoCorrection), and that patten covers about 6 different ways to account for it.

2) Other people need to investigate if they can figure out another way, and if not...

3) Have their lawyers basically give them a risk assesment on the probability of TiVo winning a case, if TiVo decides to go that route..

It is not as simple as... Well TiVo has never sued anyone yet and one... So we are good to go to violate their Pattens....

This particular one, IMHO, is borderline as too "whom" first created auto-correction. Things like WishList and Suggestions, a little more TiVo specific.

Any ideas on what could happen by going ahead and using a patent technology... just take a quick look at what is happening to Blackberry right now...


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## DesignDawg (Jan 8, 2006)

I'm fully aware of all the legal implications and sticky ways of dealing with sticky subjects. But the FACT is that there are several different products with auto-correct. And there will be many more. TiVo lovers love to point to EVERY feature and say no one has ever had it, and no one ever will, because TiVo has a patent on it. It's BS.

Ricky


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

You (Earl) say this as though their only choices were to do without the feature or to implement it and hope for the best. I'm sure TiVo would entertain a reasonable royalty offer. 

Hell, since they're so confident people don't want the feature (see also: Pontual, Romulo), maybe they could have made it an option and only paid TiVo for the customers who enable it. That would be pretty much nobody, right, Romulo?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

ebonovic said:


> But... what it boils down to is this:
> 
> 1) They have the patten (and for this one, AutoCorrection), and that patten covers about 6 different ways to account for it.
> 
> ...


Earl, I'm confused how did UTV get around this?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Earl, I'm confused how did UTV get around this?


They probably didn't... they are probably using one of the methods TiVo has a "patent" on... and TiVo just hasn't decided to go after a product that is now defunct.

Either way, it isn't there on the R15... I agree that I would like it to be there (I am not debating that one).

And yes, I saw the USA Today article where that quote was from... 
Not sure if it was taken out of context or what, but needless to say the feature isn't there... and it is a desired one.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

walters said:


> You (Earl) say this as though their only choices were to do without the feature or to implement it and hope for the best. I'm sure TiVo would entertain a reasonable royalty offer.
> 
> Hell, since they're so confident people don't want the feature (see also: Pontual, Romulo), maybe they could have made it an option and only paid TiVo for the customers who enable it. That would be pretty much nobody, right, Romulo?


I concure that TiVo "could" ofter a royalty offer... But until I get a seat at the table for those negotiations... maybe they "didn't" offer one, or offered one that was so crazy high.

Or maybe DirecTV simply underestimated the importance of that feature.

I am not trying to defend DirecTVs decision to not have it... not my job.
I am just trying to throw out a "plausable" reason on why it isn't there...

Same reason why "Suggestions" aren't there....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

DesignDawg said:


> I'm fully aware of all the legal implications and sticky ways of dealing with sticky subjects. But the FACT is that there are several different products with auto-correct. And there will be many more. TiVo lovers love to point to EVERY feature and say no one has ever had it, and no one ever will, because TiVo has a patent on it. It's BS.
> 
> Ricky


I agree that there are dozens if not hundreds of products that have auto-correct features... It just get's narrowed down to when you are talking about DVRs...

Hence why you read some of TiVo's patents you have to laugh. Like TiVo was the first to have a status bar on the bottom of the screen. Or Pause ability. We all know that is not true.

Nor could they patten something like "Schedule a Recording"... that is too "broad".

Take a look at the patten for the auto correct. Now... I have exhausted my brain into it, but.. while reading it... I kept saying... Well why not this way... nope, it was in the paten... well why not this way... nope, it was in there.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I doubt there will be any changes to FF or the addition of a 30 sec skip in DTV's plans. Keep in mind that DTV's future plans are to "enhance the Live TV experience". Why would they need to adjust the FF function or add a 30 second skip function to their DVRs?


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

I for one dont care about the auto correcting feature and in fact dont like it on my DirecTiVo. I always stop where I want and it backs up making me have to FF all over again, no thanks. With the R-15, I stop it where I want and FF or RW myself if I dont like where its at.

We are all frustrated with the R-15 for one reason or another but the R-15 has certain features and functions a certain way. If you dont like what it offers then return it, sell it on Ebay, stop using it OR use it as it is and accept it works a certain way and has the features it has.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Bobman said:


> I for one dont care about the auto correcting feature and in fact dont like it on my DirecTiVo. I always stop where I want and it backs up making me have to FF all over again, no thanks. With the R-15, I stop it where I want and FF or RW myself if I dont like where its at.
> 
> We are all frustrated with the R-15 for one reason or another but the R-15 has certain features and functions a certain way. If you dont like what it offers then return it, sell it on Ebay, stop using it OR use it as it is and accept it works a certain way and has the features it has.


Or...wait for the updates from DTV that will fix many of these problems. Just another option, right Bobman?


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

What about those of us who don't own an R15? Are we allowed to discuss it's shortcomings in _a discussion forum_, or are we supposed to STFU, too?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Discuss away... it is after all a discussion forum...


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

I'm another who doesn't like the auto correct on the Tivos, especially on rewinding. It always jumps past what I want to see and then I have to rewind 5 more times to get to the right spot.


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## DesignDawg (Jan 8, 2006)

dbronstein said:


> I'm another who doesn't like the auto correct on the Tivos, especially on rewinding. It always jumps past what I want to see and then I have to rewind 5 more times to get to the right spot.


WORD. The rewind auto-correction on the TiVos DRIVES ME NUTS. I think it's completely idiotic and ridiculously counterintuitive. I totally see the need for the auto-correct on FFWD. You're ffwding, and you see where you want to start watching. It taskes you a second to stop the ffwding. It compensates by going back a little so you didn't miss it afterall. Right? Fine.
But when rewinding.... Why do you rewind? To see something again, right? So, you rewind to the beginning of the action you want to see. When you see the action, you hit play. And it skips AHEAD several seconds, making you miss it. So you rewind again. You see the action again, wait for the beginning of it...hit play. BAM you've missed it again. RIDICULOUS. In order to rewind and actually see what you want to see, it's like you have to rewind, see where you want it to start, and then count to 5 before hitting play, or it's not going to play it for you. Makes me want to smash the POS into a thousand pieces.

But like I said, auto-correct is fine. On FFWD. It has no place in rewind.

Ricky


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## DesignDawg (Jan 8, 2006)

I'll add another point (as a defensive measure for my opinion here):

This came up on TCF while back, and Dan Collins, who has never been wrong about anything in his entire life, and knows intimately every person who has ever designed or worked on any product known to man (apparently) said this:

It makes perfect sense. Autocorrect skips back when you're fast-forwarding to compensate for overshoot, so naturally, it would skip forward when you rewind to compensate there.

W R O N G. BUZZER. EHHHHHHH!!!

Why is that wrong? It's wrong because PLAY IS ALWAYS FORWARD. If, after rewinding, pushing play caused the video to play backwards, this would be the optimal result of auto-correct. But whether you are rewinding or fast-forwarding, hitting play ALWAYS plays forward. So, auto-correct should always err on the side of playing video BEFORE where you want it to start. It's going to get there anyway. In the case of rewinding, the human tendencay to overshoot your spot ALREADY puts you on the proper side of the video, thus ELIMINATING THE NEED for auto-correct at all.

That's a fact.

Ricky


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

DesignDawg said:


> WORD. The rewind auto-correction on the TiVos DRIVES ME NUTS. I think it's completely idiotic and ridiculously counterintuitive. I totally see the need for the auto-correct on FFWD. You're ffwding, and you see where you want to start watching. It taskes you a second to stop the ffwding. It compensates by going back a little so you didn't miss it afterall. Right? Fine.
> But when rewinding.... Why do you rewind? To see something again, right? So, you rewind to the beginning of the action you want to see. When you see the action, you hit play. And it skips AHEAD several seconds, making you miss it. So you rewind again. You see the action again, wait for the beginning of it...hit play. BAM you've missed it again. RIDICULOUS. In order to rewind and actually see what you want to see, it's like you have to rewind, see where you want it to start, and then count to 5 before hitting play, or it's not going to play it for you. Makes me want to smash the POS into a thousand pieces.
> 
> But like I said, auto-correct is fine. On FFWD. It has no place in rewind.
> ...


I do not believe the same logic is used on RW that is used on FF. Beside that, if all you're trying to do is backup to see some action again, on the DTivo you press the "skip back once or twice".

However, I believe we're getting off topic here, aren't we? This forum isn't to discuss Tivos right Donnie?

:backtotop


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## DesignDawg (Jan 8, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I do not believe the same logic is used on RW that is used on FF. Beside that, if all you're trying to do is backup to see some action again, on the DTivo you press the "skip back once or twice".
> 
> However, I believe we're getting off topic here, aren't we? This forum isn't to discuss Tivos right Donnie?
> 
> :backtotop


I'm not sure what you're saying about not believing, but what I stated is pure fact. DTiVos skip forward when you stop rewinding. It's part of the "auto-correct" feature. And I DO use the skip back button. But not when my wife walks in 5 minutes into a show and decides she wants to watch it from the beginning, or a million other reasons I can think of where I don't want to continually hit skip back. Rewind shouldn't be crippled on the DTiVos. You shouldn't have to be told to use skip back as an excuse for rewind being stupidly designed. TiVo is NOT without its horrible, horrible shortcomings. It's not as unreliable and bad overall as the R15 is right now, but given a choice, I'd still go with the R15. (Not over UTV, though).

Ricky


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

DesignDawg said:


> I'm not sure what you're saying about not believing, but what I stated is pure fact. DTiVos skip forward when you stop rewinding. It's part of the "auto-correct" feature. And I DO use the skip back button. But not when my wife walks in 5 minutes into a show and decides she wants to watch it from the beginning, or a million other reasons I can think of where I don't want to continually hit skip back. Rewind shouldn't be crippled on the DTiVos. You shouldn't have to be told to use skip back as an excuse for rewind being stupidly designed. TiVo is NOT without its horrible, horrible shortcomings. It's not as unreliable and bad overall as the R15 is right now, but given a choice, I'd still go with the R15. (Not over UTV, though).
> 
> Ricky


If anyone walks in when a show is playing and presses RW and lets it go to the beginning it will resume at the very beginning of the show, not a couple of minutes into it. I just now tested that.

Testing RW and then pressing play is a tad harder to test, I still stand by what I said: If I'm trying to "see something again" I press "skip back" as needed. If I want to rewind to the beginning I use RW until it gets to the beginning. The same logic could be employed here, but I don't see folks using the RW feature as they do the FF feature, which is where the "logic" fits very well in my view.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Ok, DD. Last I checked I wasn't full-o-crap. :nono:

Question, what from my last post do you disagree with? I'm doing nothing blindly here.

You mentioned an example of when someone walks into a room 5 minutes into a show and wants to watch the entire show. I replied that all one has to do is hit RW and let it go to the beginning and it will not "auto-correct" it will play from the beginning. But again, this is in regards to the DTivo not the R15. If you'd like to discuss this further maybe we should open this topic up in the Tivo forum here.

Unless you're particularly pissed at someone over at TCF (Kinda seems that way) why can't your statements be questioned? But let's do that under another thread in another DTV forum.

_EDIT: For clarity sake, this post was in response to a post from DesignDawg which he later choose to delete._


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

..


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Wolffpack said:


> If anyone walks in when a show is playing and presses RW and lets it go to the beginning it will resume at the very beginning of the show, not a couple of minutes into it. I just now tested that.
> 
> Testing RW and then pressing play is a tad harder to test, I still stand by what I said: If I'm trying to "see something again" I press "skip back" as needed. If I want to rewind to the beginning I use RW until it gets to the beginning. The same logic could be employed here, but I don't see folks using the RW feature as they do the FF feature, which is where the "logic" fits very well in my view.


Another "I don't use my DVR that way so I don't understand why anyone else would" post.

I rewind back 5 or 10 minutes - but not to the start of the show - to see something fairly often. For example, if I'm watching the news in the morning and I miss the weather for some reason (probably because I needed to do something for/with the kids), I'll rewind back to see the forecast. It's totally asinine to hit skip back for 30 times to get there - it makes much more sense to rewind.

Dennis


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

dbronstein said:


> I rewind back 5 or 10 minutes - but not to the start of the show


I know. All anyone with the R-15 has to do it hit the "advance button" twice to get back to the beginning of a show.


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## ingvey (Jan 1, 2005)

I have 4 Ultimate tv units that have twin tuners and the 30 second skip. I am getting the r15 and really want the feature. I was not aware that it would not be able to be hacked to get this feature. We should all boycot for 3 months and make them give it back. Think... what is the difference if I FF over an add or I skip with a button. Either way I do not watch it. Why are we all forced to do something we Paid not to do . I know they will say our monthly fee is with the add money they collect and it would be higher if they could not advertise B.S!!!!They make billions


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

ingvey said:


> I have 4 Ultimate tv units that have twin tuners and the 30 second skip. I am getting the r15 and really want the feature. I was not aware that it would not be able to be hacked to get this feature. We should all boycot for 3 months and make them give it back. Think... what is the difference if I FF over an add or I skip with a button. Either way I do not watch it. Why are we all forced to do something we Paid not to do . I know they will say our monthly fee is with the add money they collect and it would be higher if they could not advertise B.S!!!!They make billions


Boycot what? Give what back? We could all drop the R15 right now and they probably wouldn't care. The new DVR users don't miss these things as they never had them. Now they are adding a 30 skip like feature soon and the dual live buffers is under consideration as I understand it.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I'll bet the 30 second skip (or something close) is already there, just as it was on the Tivo units. We just need to get Earl to sweet talk his "source" into pouring through the code to find out what it is.

Right Earl???? :grin:


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## Bobman (Jan 3, 2006)

I think what people are not considering is the people that find these forums are probably the top couple percentage of users and the "geeks or power users". We are all up in arms and pissed at the R-15 but the other 98% of casual users probably dont notice many or any of them. 

Mom & Pop or Joe Blow at home setting 10 SL's and using their DVR's for pausing live TV to go to the bathroom are not going to have the frequency or amount of problems that we are having.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Bobman said:


> I think what people are not considering is the people that find these forums are probably the top couple percentage of users and the "geeks or power users". We are all up in arms and pissed at the R-15 but the other 98% of casual users probably dont notice many or any of them.
> 
> Mom & Pop or Joe Blow at home setting 10 SL's and using their DVR's for pausing live TV to go to the bathroom are not going to have the frequency or amount of problems that we are having.


Well some of the problems i'm sure they see as you just can't not notice some of them. But for many of the features you are most likely correct, they have no clue. Most of them wouldn't know what a 30 Second skip was nor do they likely care they can't pause 2 live shows. Heckmany are probably all giddy that they can record two shows at the same time. Wanting what you once had is valid but as many have said we are the minority.


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