# ASK DBS Talk - Won't lock in OTA ABC 41-1



## Stingray (Dec 22, 2003)

The 921 is now one week old and working marvelously (almost). All of my local digitals locked in properly with a Scan Digital command except for ABC Detroit (41-1) which was a no-show.  

I did a Manual Add DTV without success. When it trys to lock in on 41, the signal bar oscillates between 0 and 70 for about a minute then jumps up to 116-120 and holds there, but still says NOT Locked, and therefore will not Save. I have tried this repeatidly with no luck. 

Any work arounds??? Is this a common (known) problem with the 921? Should I report this to a CR for the record?

Bye the way, my 6000 picks this station up just fine from the same antenna lead.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Definitely a 921 not being able to handle something in the data stream problem. In addition to reporting to a CSR, please also provide contact information for the station's chief engineer here as well - the developers are reading.


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## Stingray (Dec 22, 2003)

Thanks Mark! Is this a 921 software related issue or a improper (non-standard) transmission station issue? In other words, where does the resolution lie??


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Welcome back, Mark. Hope you had some great dives logged!

Stingray-
Check to see if your ABC station is transmitting PSIP data. FYI- when we got L186 added to our 921 back on the 13th, we observed the exact same symptoms here with 2 of our 7 stations. Coincidentally, our two stations that began to have these problems are the only two that do not transmit any PSIP. In addition, when a station does not transmit PSIP to a receiver that depends on it for channel remapping and other data, different receivers will respond in different ways depending on the way it impliments the PSIP interpreter. This is going to be a serious problem as the number of receivers expand into the market place. 
FWIW- the HDTIVO has a slightly different variation to the problem of a station without PSIP. It will still lock onto the station but if the station w/o PSIP transmits a single subchannel it works fine. If the station without PSIP transmits 2 or more subchannels, it will not lock on the preprogrammed channel mapped and require the channel to be manually added. At least you can see it. HDTIVO appears to map channels by zip code and DMA listing. The 921 appears to remap strictly based on PSIP.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Thanks, Don. I had a fantastic time, and did just about as much diving as I wanted to do.  (I don't think it'd be possible to do as much as I would want to do without artificial gills.)

Stingray - the resolution lies with the 921.


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## Stingray (Dec 22, 2003)

My thanks to Mark and Don. I have just sent an email to the offending station in Detroit and asked for a contact name and phone. Also, a couple of people replied that they have the same problem as I do with one of their ABC stations in other cities. Is this an ABC thing??

I will let you know what I hear from the station....Stingray


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Stingray- How about the actual call letters of your offending station? It may be an owner issue as the station here is owned by Gannett Broadcasting. Sometimes the station owners are the ones who restrict implementation of the proper hardware to meet current day standards. 

I believe that while the 921 is part of the problem, it is so only because it is requiring the PSIP data to be present now to work. 
While PSIP is a recommended standard subset of the ATSC it is not yet a regulated part of the broadcast. It remains voluntary. The FCC was accepting written proposals and recommendations up until May of this year and the requirement is currently under review to make PSIP mandatory. When it becomes regulated, all stations will have to send the minimal fixed PSIP data which does not include program guide data. It only includes the call letters clock and DT channel/remap channel. 
I posted this elsewhere but it may be worth repeating. I have been researching this for a couple of months now and have uncovered a funny little conflict in the FCC regulations related to PSIP. The FCC requires Closed Captions on certain programming when sent from the networks, it must be passed on to the viewer. If PSIP variable data is not present (this is in addition to the above listed fixed data) the channel cannot pass on the CC on the DT transmission. Consequently any network affiliate would be in violation of the CC regulations. One of the documents I uncovered on this stated that all non-PSIP DT stations are in violation. Nothing is being done about it unless a complaint is sent in to the FCC calling attention to this. Therefore a good way to force the PSIP equipment installation at your station would be to report it for a Closed Caption violation. PSIP org claims that the only way for CC to be added to the DT is for PSIP equipment to implement it as there is no other way presently. 

Locally, I have been promised PSIP "later on" but no actual commitment as to when. I plan to give the station some space to see how it evolves but if it is not adopted by the FCC and put off by the local station management indefinitly I may decide to press a formal complaint via the CC requirement loophole in the regulation.


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## Stingray (Dec 22, 2003)

Don - WXYZ TV Channel 7 and 41 Detroit is not Gannett. It is a Scripps Howard station. I will give them a few days to answer my earlier email regarding my problem before trying other means to find out. It will be interesting to see if a lack of PSIP is the problem!


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## TV Director (Feb 14, 2004)

Don good info on this topic. When you mentioned Gannett it hit home. I've been having a lot of problems locking onto WKYC Ch3 (3.1, 3.2, 3.3) a Gannett owned station in Cleveland. All other local OTA-HD's come in fine, but WKYC has also been pretty non-existent. I'm not sore of the chief engineer's name (Mike Szabo????), but their main phone number is 216-344-3333. Sure would be nice to catch the upcoming olympics in HD!


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

My local ABC station ( Channel 12 Kbmt in Beaumont, Texas) no longer locks in. I have been able to lock on this station like a charm since I got the 921 over a month ago. Yesterday the strength went to it 's normal 91 signal and then it wouldn't lock in and turn red and then back. The picture would pixelate and break up and freeze and it was totally unwatchable. I tried the antenna and it made no difference. I tried to add and even do another digital scan and it will add the station but it is unwatchable. I have had a daily timer for my local news set up for daily and it worked great and now it no longer will work. I don't know what has happened if it is my local ABC station that is doing something in the signal or what? I have read about others having trouble with their ABC station as well so is it something the network is doing ? This is the main station we like to watch in digital and now it sucks.


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## jamullian (May 7, 2004)

I have had a similar issue with a station (KNSD) in my local market (San Diego). Used to get a lock immediately, almost independent of antenna alignment - then they upgraded from 18 to 370 kw ERP - and now my 921 has a real hard time locking (I'm about 8 miles from the xmitter, slightly over a ridge), with similar symptoms to Stingray.

I spent a week hassling the station, talking to engineers, discussing the matter on a local HDTV board, nobody came up with any useful suggestions.

Then I thought - maybe it's actually the 921 in this particular configuration? Went to the electronics store we all love to hate (Frxx) and bought an off the shelf Samsung SIR-T351 OTA HDTV tuner just for grins, set me back $349.99.

Put in a splitter on the antenna signal tried my 921 - no lock on KNBC. Booted the Samsung - full lock on all stations as expected, including KNSD. Same antenna, same orientation, same time of day. Better PQ, too.

KNSD, along with all other locals I can pick up, broadcast PSIP; only KPBS broadcast an EPG (which shows up beautifully on the Samsung).

My ASK DBS Talk question is: Can I reasonably expect the OTA issues in the 921 to be fixed within the 30 days before I would have to return the Samsung (heck, even Crutchfield are selling it for less!), or for that matter within the foreseeable future, or are those of us who are unlucky enough to be experiencing these issues just having to accept that a dedicated OTA tuner will have better performance?


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

jamullian said:


> I have had a similar issue with a station (KNSD) in my local market (San Diego). Used to get a lock immediately, almost independent of antenna alignment - then they upgraded from 18 to 370 kw ERP - and now my 921 has a real hard time locking (I'm about 8 miles from the xmitter, slightly over a ridge), with similar symptoms to Stingray.
> 
> I spent a week hassling the station, talking to engineers, discussing the matter on a local HDTV board, nobody came up with any useful suggestions.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure that our local channel 34.0, 34.01 ABC or KRCR isn't including the PSIP and my 921 will not lock in on a 125 signal. It remains red in Add DTV and isn't detected in the SCAN DTV. I wonder if most of the problems with channels not locking are ABC affiliates?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

jamullian said:


> My ASK DBS Talk question is: Can I reasonably expect the OTA issues in the 921 to be fixed within the 30 days before I would have to return the Samsung (heck, even Crutchfield are selling it for less!), or for that matter within the foreseeable future, or are those of us who are unlucky enough to be experiencing these issues just having to accept that a dedicated OTA tuner will have better performance?


In the next 30 days? Probably for some, and probably not for all. In the forseeable future? Probably for just about everyone. That's my best guess and gut feel. I do know that the remaining OTA problems are at the top of the "must be fixed now" list...


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## jamullian (May 7, 2004)

boylehome said:


> I wonder if most of the problems with channels not locking are ABC affiliates?


Mine is NBC ....

It has been suggested by an antenna engineer that since in "my" case the analog and digital channels for KNSD are adjacent numbers (39 and 40 respectively), the tuner front end in the 921 is having a problem discriminating. Note those who mention that they had no problem with the old 6000 - no analog, neither does the Samsung.

Anyone else with this problem have adjacent analog/digital channel numbers?


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> In the next 30 days? Probably for some, and probably not for all. In the forseeable future? Probably for just about everyone. That's my best guess and gut feel. I do know that the remaining OTA problems are at the top of the "must be fixed now" list...


That is a breath of fresh air. I hope that the OTA's were fixed!


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

jamullian said:


> Mine is NBC ....
> 
> It has been suggested by an antenna engineer that since in "my" case the analog and digital channels for KNSD are adjacent numbers (39 and 40 respectively), the tuner front end in the 921 is having a problem discriminating. Note those who mention that they had no problem with the old 6000 - no analog, neither does the Samsung.
> 
> Anyone else with this problem have adjacent analog/digital channel numbers?


I have had problems with my local NBC station since L180 was released. It is channel 26 here in Albuquerque. There is an adjacent channel number 27 which is the local FOX channel (they are both digital though). I was able to get both prior to that software release. I had the installer come over to see if he could get it working (thought it might be the antenna). He spent a couple of hours testing things and even talking to the station engineer all to no avail (and even got charged $80 for nothing). I then had another 921 sent to me because of these problems and guess what, it didn't make a difference. I still can't get the NBC station and I was hoping to get it before the olympics. 

I still think now that it is either the way the station is transmitting their feed or more so, the software on the 921 has some more bugs in it that is preventing the station from locking in. I now have little or no hope that it will be corrected before the olympics which start on the 13th.


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## Stingray (Dec 22, 2003)

FWIW - When reporting this problem to Advanced Tech Support at Dish, he told me that it is a known bug in the current software release (L186) and a fix will be sent out soon. We will (all) wait and see!!!


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## jamullian (May 7, 2004)

Stingray said:


> FWIW - When reporting this problem to Advanced Tech Support at Dish, he told me that it is a known bug in the current software release (L186) and a fix will be sent out soon.


Of course it will.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Having 5 OTA receivers with two being the 921 and the HDTIVO, I have a great opportunity to analyze same signals, same antenna on all of these to see how they differ.

From what I can see, the 921 IS the problem with channels with no DVR functions. The 921 IS the problem with stations that lack PSIP, ie those with strong solid signals that do not lock. Actually this last issue was started with L186 as it was not broke before L186.

Having the HDTIVO here has been a real eye opener as to suspected station issues vs. 921 software. If the channel works fine on the HDTIVO for DVR functionality and it works fine as in locks in to the DT channel number, then why shouldn't it work fine with the 921? Other than requesting all stations to adopt PSIP, I see no reason to bother station engineers for an obvious 921 problem that only affects 921's. If the issue surfaced on all receivers then involving station engineers would be appropriate.

L186 is the a testiment to the programmers complete lack of competancy. Since L186 my 921 has:
1. Fails to lock on any DT channel from a station lacking PSIP. 
2. I continue to lose all OTA channels every other day, requiring a card reboot to fix.
3. I now lose all sat channels every 4-6 days. They turn red in the guide. This now requires a smart card reboot to fix.
4. One channel with no DVR functions. This has always been broke. 
5. Every 3 days my timers now won't fire. I have returned to using my manual reboot procedure once per day to correct this as it works to keep the timers firing.

My 921 has been sequestered (standby mode from 2 AM to 6 PM each day and no timers set during that time to test the L186 reboot) It resolved nothing and after 3 days my timers during the on time failed to fire. Rebooting manually is the only work around. Rebooting several times is somethimes necessary to be effective. This is not just my experience it is being reported all across the nation at random. 


After 7 months of this nonsense I recommend that E* put Eldon on notice they have 30 days to issue one more update. That update shall fix the No DVR function on certain OTA channels, fix the loss of no PSIP stations that locked prior to L186. Fix the memory leakes that cause the timers to fail if not rebooted every 3 days. Remove the L186 reboot function as it just does not work and forces the 921 to work in that crippled state. rebooting is not a fix to the memory leaks. 
If Eldon cannot comply with this no- nonsense zero tolerance request after all this time then they should be fired. E* should put the 921 back to the last known best operational software version (I believe L185 but others may disagree) And then E* should commission a whole new software group to start from scratch and produce a software that works. They should be given a target of 4 months to offer their first release. E* should not rule out contacting TIVO to submit proposals in this bid for a new development team.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> Having 5 OTA receivers with two being the 921 and the HDTIVO, I have a great opportunity to analyze same signals, same antenna on all of these to see how they differ.
> 
> From what I can see, the 921 IS the problem with channels with no DVR functions. The 921 IS the problem with stations that lack PSIP, ie those with strong solid signals that do not lock. Actually this last issue was started with L186 as it was not broke before L186.
> 
> ...


Putting all frustration aside, E* should focus on the fix now. If it doesn't get resolved by the next firmware update (no more than one month), then there are other alternatives that may be more beneficial to the victims of the 921 dilemma. Would it be of value for all 921 owners to directly contact E* and make some demands NOW?


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

boylehome said:


> Putting all frustration aside, E* should focus on the fix now. If it doesn't get resolved by the next firmware update (no more than one month), then there are other alternatives that may be more beneficial to the victims of the 921 dilemma. Would it be of value for all 921 owners to directly contact E* and make some demands NOW?


I think that if enough 921 owners complained to Eldon, we might see a decent software update!!! How about a class action suit?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Ok, enough.

I get the frustration and the anger. I really do. But this thread has gone way beyond constructive, so it's now closed.


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