# ViP211 Impressions from an 811 User



## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

Well, I've had my ViP211 for two full days now and I think I can confidently say that I like it. I had an 811 for two years (actually, 3 different 811's, but that's another story) and I was fairly satisified with that receiver until the component video problem started with P3.34. The 811 worked its way into being a stable platform and I hope that I have the same experience with the ViP211. On to the comparisons:

ViP211 advantages over the 811:
1. The component video levels seem to be correct on the ViP211. This used to be true on the 811 until E* broke it.
2. EPG fills entire screen, seems "nicer" on the ViP211.
3. Browse feature "enhanced" - can see more than just the next program.
4. SD picture quality greatly improved. SD was pretty bad on the 811. Watchable, but still not too good. I'm not sure what is being done differently (maybe something to do with the internal scaler), but it's much better on the ViP211.
5. Internal scaler seems to work much better. I have a 720p native DLP display. On the 811, I had to set the output to 1080i to avoid noticeable picture degradation on 1080i channels even though this was not the native res of the display. The TV's scaler was superior to that in the 811. The ViP211 handles this much better. I have it set to 720p and everything seems to look exactly as it should. I'd say that the scaler in the ViP211 is every bit as good, if not superior to the one in my display.
6. Gray bar mode seems to "fit" better. In early versions of the 811 software, there were black lines between the gray bars and the program video. In later versions, this was dealt with by slightly zooming the video. The ViP211 does not seem to need to do this.
7. RF modulator in the ViP211. Eliminates the need for an outboard modulator to feed second TV in another room.

Things that I preferred about the 811:
1. UHF remote. I have one receiver feeding two rooms. The IR remote doesn't work so well for this. I'll have to buy a UHF Pro Upgrade Kit (approx $50). Maybe this is good as I'll have a remote for each room.
2. The 811 had 2 sets of analog audio outputs, where there's only 1 on the ViP211. I guess this isn't really an issue as one set used to go the the outboard modulator that I no longer need.
3. Appearance. This isn't really anything tangible, but I liked the way the 811 looked in my rack better than the ViP211. This is a matter of personal preferance and others will have a different opinion on this.

_(Note to moderators: If this fits better in a different forum, please feel free to move it. I did not post this in the ViP211 support forum as I don't really see it as a "support" issue.)_


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It works good here in the E* HD forum. Thanks for your report, BoisePaul. I've also added your post to the ViP-211 Basics closed thread in the 211 forum for permanent reference.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Good Post Paul. Nice to see when a user takes the time to post their personal experiences in this amount of detail. Looks like a fair assessment. Keep the group posted on how you find the stability to be under your use conditions.


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## mkpolley (Dec 8, 2003)

I like the 411/211 also,i have 1 411 and 1 211..only thing i want is ability to adjust the picture,is that coming on the next software update?


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

Hey, Paul....

Excellent post and observations. I too, have a 720p set, but image quality somehow always looked better when I set the 811 up for 1080i output. I was always surprised that more members didn't voice concern over this "quirk".

Have you tested the HDMI port? I could not use the DVI output of the 811 due to ghosting, which forced me to go the Component route. Just wondering if the ghosting issue, when set to 720p is resolved as well.


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## bhenge (Mar 2, 2005)

Nice post BoisePaul. I prefer my 411 over the 811 as well. The entire graphical package, especially on guide options, is vastly improved. Two things I did like better in the 811 was the relatively recent ability to see the signal level meter in the OTA Signal Lost screen which made it much easier to adjust my OTA antenna. The 411 does not do that and makes me go to the 'add locals' screen which is a bit of a pain. The second thing is that the 211/411 has no analog OTA tuner (which I needed for my tuner-less projector) and the 811 did.


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## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

moman19 said:


> Have you tested the HDMI port? I could not use the DVI output of the 811 due to ghosting, which forced me to go the Component route. Just wondering if the ghosting issue, when set to 720p is resolved as well.


Haven't tried HDMI. I use a component video switcher so the component connection was the route I wanted to take. Running an HDMI cable requires moving some fairly heavy furniture and I haven't been that ambitious.


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## lmarkoff (Jan 2, 2006)

I've had my VIP 211 for 10 days. I am a complete newbie to HD video and to DISH network, so I have no way to compare the 211 to other DISH STBs. The vip211 is feeding my new 50-inch NEC plasma via HDMI. I do have some questions though:
(1) When watching hi-def from the satellite, I presume the incoming signal is 1080i (or the watered down version of 1080i discussed elsewhere), so if I set the VIP 211 to 1080i, will it leave the signal alone and pass it un-scaled to my NEC plasma?
(2) By the same token, when I am receiving an SD broadcast from the satellite and with the STB set to 1080i, does that mean that the vip 211 is doing the deinterlacing and upscaling of the 480i signal to 1080i? I would much prefer to find a way to have the 211 send an unmodified 480i signal to my NEC, which I am quite certain has a better deinterlacer/upscaler than does the 211. Any way to do that without re-setting the 211 every time I switch to and from an HD to an SD channel?
(3) Now for a queston about off-air viewing: I am fortunate enough to have a very good outdoor antenna and to live in an area with lots of digital and HD broadcasting OTA. First let me tell you that both SD and sometimes (but not always) HD derived from off-air sources are better looking than that which comes in via the satellite. (The bigger difference is on SD broadcasts. I am not so thrilled with SD via the satellite and think it might be inferior to what I was seeing with my previous Directv set-up, but this could be due to deinterlacing and upscaling being done by the 211, whereas my previous DTV STB had no deinterlacer/scaler built-in and probably fed the NEC with true 480i.)
(4) Regarding the installation: The DISH guys were very professional and patient with my many questions. They initially ascertained that I could not use the 129 satellite, because trees were in the way, and therefore I did not get a DISH1000 either, although these were both in the initial contract. So I got two DISH500s and I am picking up 61.5, 110, and 119. As far as I can gather, the 119 does the job intended for the 129. I have HD VOOM, HBO, SHO, CINEMAX, and HD Pack (this was ordered before the silver, gold, etc HD packages were offered). Is there any compromise in viewing quality associated with using 119 vs 129 and not having DISH1000?

Finally, I don't want to sound grumpy. I am actually enjoying the HD viewing immensely.


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## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

lmarkoff said:


> (1) When watching hi-def from the satellite, I presume the incoming signal is 1080i (or the watered down version of 1080i discussed elsewhere), so if I set the VIP 211 to 1080i, will it leave the signal alone and pass it un-scaled to my NEC plasma?


The incoming signal is usually whatever is being sent ot E* from the provider. Some channels are 1080i, some are 720p. Some are something else, but that's a discussion for another thread. For a 1080i channel, with the ViP211 set to 1080i, it shouldn't do any scaling. For a 720p channel, it will interlace and upconvert.


lmarkoff said:


> (2) By the same token, when I am receiving an SD broadcast from the satellite and with the STB set to 1080i, does that mean that the vip 211 is doing the deinterlacing and upscaling of the 480i signal to 1080i? I would much prefer to find a way to have the 211 send an unmodified 480i signal to my NEC, which I am quite certain has a better deinterlacer/upscaler than does the 211. Any way to do that without re-setting the 211 every time I switch to and from an HD to an SD channel?


Yes, it is converting the 480i signal to 1080i. This cannot be disabled. As I mentioned in my initial comments, the ViP211's scaler is VERY good. This was a feature I definitely wanted on my 811; with the ViP211, I don't see the need.


lmarkoff said:


> (3) Now for a queston about off-air viewing: I am fortunate enough to have a very good outdoor antenna and to live in an area with lots of digital and HD broadcasting OTA. First let me tell you that both SD and sometimes (but not always) HD derived from off-air sources are better looking than that which comes in via the satellite. (The bigger difference is on SD broadcasts. I am not so thrilled with SD via the satellite and think it might be inferior to what I was seeing with my previous Directv set-up, but this could be due to deinterlacing and upscaling being done by the 211, whereas my previous DTV STB had no deinterlacer/scaler built-in and probably fed the NEC with true 480i.)


I doubt that kit has anything to do with the scaler. An off-air digital signal will almost always beat something delivered via DBS. It's a matter of available bandwidth and compression. If you want to do a comparison, set the ViP211 to the native resolution of the channel you're comparing so that it does no up/downconversion. Locals via DBS tend to use extremely high compression ratios that have a negative impact on PQ.


lmarkoff said:


> (4) Regarding the installation: The DISH guys were very professional and patient with my many questions. They initially ascertained that I could not use the 129 satellite, because trees were in the way, and therefore I did not get a DISH1000 either, although these were both in the initial contract. So I got two DISH500s and I am picking up 61.5, 110, and 119. As far as I can gather, the 119 does the job intended for the 129. I have HD VOOM, HBO, SHO, CINEMAX, and HD Pack (this was ordered before the silver, gold, etc HD packages were offered). Is there any compromise in viewing quality associated with using 119 vs 129 and not having DISH1000?


The core locations are 119 and 110. You get some HD programming from 110. The rest either comes from 61.5 or 129. At the current time, unless you have locals on one or the other, neither 61.5 or 129 has an advantage over the other as the HD programming (except HD locals) is mirrored between the two.


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## lmarkoff (Jan 2, 2006)

BoisePaul said:


> The core locations are 119 and 110. You get some HD programming from 110. The rest either comes from 61.5 or 129. At the current time, unless you have locals on one or the other, neither 61.5 or 129 has an advantage over the other as the HD programming (except HD locals) is mirrored between the two.


First, thank you very much for your in depth response. I quote from your text above in order to ask a question re your use of the phrase "at the present time". Do you mean to imply that at some future time there WILL be an advantage related to being able to access 129? Is this related to the eventual use of MPEG4 encoding? (DISH told me that HD locals are not available to anyone at the present time but that HD locals will be available in the near future; I presume they meant when MPEG4 is up and running. So, maybe without being able to access 129, I will never be able to get HD locals via satellite.)

And by the way, also with reference to your statement above, I am at the present time getting local channels off the satellite, as well as off-air. (But now that I see that the off-air PQ is superior and that I can get HD local broadcasts off-air but not via satellite at present, I will probably discontinue my local channel satellite service in the future, perhaps when my 3-month honeymoon is over.) Finally, after further thought and observation, I have to concur with you; the HD PQ of the VOOM and some other channels via satellite is indeed somewhat superior to HD of the local channels via my outdoor antenna.

Your other response re what the vip211 is doing makes me wonder why we spend the big bucks to get fancy displays with high end built-in deinterlacers/upscalers, not to mention high end external scalers. When one is using satellite (and most likely cable), the STB is doing the job one would like the display or external box to be doing, and the same holds true of watching standard DVDs from a DVD player, unless one feeds the set with 480i over HDMI. And even that small advantage will eventually be nullified when and if HD DVD takes hold.


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## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

When I say "current time", I'm referring to the fact that I have no idea what the future will hold. The big variable is HD locals. Depending on the market, they may be on 129 or 61.5, but not both if current trends continue. If your market ends up on 129, then you'll probably want to be able to see that bird. Same goes for 61.5. Depending on what E* decides to do with Echostar X at 110 (once it gets there - right now it's somewhere in the middle of the Pacific), some HD locals could possible end up there. These are uncertainties. With your location, my guess would be that your locals will not be on 129. It's fairly safe to assume that any future national HD programming at 129 will be mirrored at 61.5. There's too much of the country that cannot see 129 to not do so.

I have no idea what the logic is behind not allowing native resolution output from the STB. I suppose there may be some displays that cannot autosense different resolutions, so building a scaler into the STB saves some headaches. It might also have something to do with the transmission of "nonstandard" resolutions such as 1280x1080i. I have a feeling that many displays and outboard video processors might not be able to handle something like that.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

If they did allow pass through it could be added as a menu option.
1080i/720p/480p/480i/Pass instead if the first four options.

They would have to do the screen scaling on the fly. It seems easier on the menu display system if it knows the display that it will be seen on. The system could ASSUME that all 1080i/720p programming is 16x9 and let the TV set deal with it if it is a 4:3 HD monitor. Getting the menus to work right would be interesting.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Why would they have to do all that? The point of the desired pass-thru option is that you "let the TV set deal with it." I suppose there could be an issue with standard 4:3 screens so maybe they could tie the menu layout to the user's guide preference -- 16:9 menus only if you have selected the 3-hour EPG.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I don't like the 3 hour EPG - but I still want 16:9 menus and video inserts.
There has to be a way to allow for a consistant menu structure.

I wonder how many off the forums care about 'pass through'?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> I don't like the 3 hour EPG - but I still want 16:9 menus and video inserts.
> There has to be a way to allow for a consistant menu structure.
> 
> I wonder how many off the forums care about 'pass through'?


I think more consumers that understand the technology would care... but most consumers I run into don't really have an understanding of anything regarding what makes HDTV better than regular TV... and the salespeople at most stores I've visited either don't know or are perfectly happy with an ignorant consumer base to sell to.

It's like before the FDA forced the nutritional information on food products... most people were perfectly fine (I know I would have been) buying Chock-Os or whatever and just eating them without regard to just exactly what was inside!


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## lmarkoff (Jan 2, 2006)

BoisePaul said:


> I have no idea what the logic is behind not allowing native resolution output from the STB. I suppose there may be some displays that cannot autosense different resolutions, so building a scaler into the STB saves some headaches. It might also have something to do with the transmission of "nonstandard" resolutions such as 1280x1080i. I have a feeling that many displays and outboard video processors might not be able to handle something like that.


This is yet another fly-in-the-ointment of HD viewing that I never even thought about until now. You make an interesting point that possibly built-in scalers could not handle "HD-lite" (1280X1080i) that is now being purveyed; perhaps a technically knowledgable person could comment. But I do think that the expensive external deinterlacer/scalers, e.g., Lumagen, VDO, and Realta, could deal with it; those units appear to be able to convert anything to anything in terms of resolution, up to 1080p of course. Anyway, I would be very much in favor of a pass-thru feature, perhaps limited to the HDMI output, which would de facto limit its availability only to those with 16:9 tv's. I am going to do some research to find out whether STBs offered by D* and cable offer this feature, just out of curiosity.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Native pass through is a feature that has been echoed in the 811, 921 and 942 forums and my guess it will be echoed in the 622 forum also. This feature mainly comes into effect when SD content is discussed. With SD and large TVs one would want the best possible PQ and if the TV does a better job one would want it to do it. 

If you do a search on Native pass thru you will see some good discussions on what people would like to see for this feature. There also might be cases where users would like SD to be passed natively and HD output set to a particular particular resolution. Remember not all content is received in 1080i. Example.. Older set only does 720p and upscales its 480i. Something like that.


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## lmarkoff (Jan 2, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> This feature mainly comes into effect when SD content is discussed. With SD and large TVs one would want the best possible PQ and if the TV does a better job one would want it to do it.
> 
> If you do a search on Native pass thru you will see some good discussions on what people would like to see for this feature. There also might be cases where users would like SD to be passed natively and HD output set to a particular particular resolution. Remember not all content is received in 1080i. Example.. Older set only does 720p and upscales its 480i. Something like that.


Yes, ideally there would be 3 choices: (1) STB does it all; user sets resolution (what we have now in the vip211), (2) SD native pass-thru/HD scaled, (3) both SD and HD passed thru. And the unmodified signals in all cases should be available via HDMI, so they remain in the digital domain until seen by either the external scaler or the tv itself. This is all easy for me to say; it may represent a nightmare of circuit design. I would pay a couple hundred bucks extra up front for that flexibility, though. Offer it as an optional version of the vip211 for extra cost.


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