# CC Quick Toggle: What are your ideas?



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

What are your ideas on how DirecTV should implement a quick toggle on/off for Closed Captioning


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## KitchMD (Aug 27, 2006)

Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

press & hold MUTE would be the best, of course, but that could cause it's own issues since MUTE really is a TV button rather than an HR20 button. Placement of the HR20 vs. the TV could introduce Customer Support issues. Therefore, that particular button would have to be out.

The DASH key actually might make some sense, though. It wouldn't work on the RESET screen, but pretty much everywhere else if you just type in DASH-ENTER (two key presses), then a toggle could be implemented. since a DASH is also used for OTA channels, the code would have to be smart enough to know that a number had been pressed and NOT do the toggle. If someone keyed in 5- and then ENTER, you wouldn't want CC to toggle, but if someone keyed in DASH(-) and ENTER you would.

There is a caveat, in that DASH-DASH deletes a line in My Playlist and in the Prioritizer. If the toggle were implemented this way, then the frequency of DASH-DASH mistakes would rise. Personally, I think that there should be a confirmation screen after the DASH-DASH and that would solve the problem, but I know others enjoy the speed of the DASH-DASH delete.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Make it a MENU option. AUDIO OPTIONS is under menu. Make it MENU/CAPTION OPTIONS, with Edit Settings / Captions On / Captions Off as the three choices.

This avoids people accidentally turning captions on with a button press, yet is easily accessable. It takes a 16 step process down to 3 or 4.

(Personally I'd like them to map red or green for switching to the other tuner.)


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## pman_jim (Jan 24, 2007)

KitchMD said:


> Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


I'll second this idea.

Or place another item in the menu options where you could select CC on/off from there. It would then only be a couple of button presses vs. searching through the whole menu tree to find it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Capmeister said:


> Make it a MENU option. AUDIO OPTIONS is under menu. Make it MENU/CAPTION OPTIONS, with Edit Settings / Captions On / Captions Off as the three choices.
> 
> This avoids people accidentally turning captions on with a button press, yet is easily accessable. It takes a 16 step process down to 3 or 4.


What if just one entry on the Menu->Audio CC On/Off (toggle).
If you want to edit it... you have to go the full audio menu (as how often do you really have to edit the settings other then on/off ?)


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What if just one entry on the Menu->Audio CC On/Off (toggle).
> If you want to edit it... you have to go the full audio menu (as how often do you really have to edit the settings other then on/off ?)


I've never edited them more than when testing.  But I think that would be fine. I was just suggesting it mirror audio options with the Edit Options thing for consistancy. I'm fine with just a toggle under Audio Options (though it's technically a display option, not an audio option).

I just think the menu button is the best place for it.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What if just one entry on the Menu->Audio CC On/Off (toggle).
> If you want to edit it... you have to go the full audio menu (as how often do you really have to edit the settings other then on/off ?)


If it were this quick, I think a lot of people would be happy. Heck, I might even turn it on once in a while and I don't even need it. It's an easy thing to find and if somebody "screws up" then it's easy to turn it off/on again.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What if just one entry on the Menu->Audio CC On/Off (toggle).
> If you want to edit it... you have to go the full audio menu (as how often do you really have to edit the settings other then on/off ?)


Sounds good to me.


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## jediphish (Dec 4, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What if just one entry on the Menu->Audio CC On/Off (toggle).
> If you want to edit it... you have to go the full audio menu (as how often do you really have to edit the settings other then on/off ?)


I like this Idea. As I understand what you are suggesting it would work this way:

1. Press Menu (CC should be near the top of the menu list)
2. Highlight CC
3. Press Select
nothing more required - menu clears/exits automatically

This turns it On if it was Off, and Off if it was On.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

I thought Earl was suggesting it would be:

*Menu
Audio Options
CC On/Off*

I'd be fine with that.
*
Menu
Captions On/Off *

would work too.

The only reason I see not making it some button is to avoid calls to the call center with "There's words on my screen! How do I get them off?"

For me, this allows me to quickly turn off captions when I have friends over that are distracted by them and no one who needs them is watching.


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## Rpbertxyz (Feb 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What if just one entry on the Menu->Audio CC On/Off (toggle).
> If you want to edit it... you have to go the full audio menu (as how often do you really have to edit the settings other then on/off ?)


Earl, you have come up with the most practical way and the quickest and easiest way possible.

Bob H.


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## DonCorleone (Jan 29, 2006)

1st choice: mute button turns it on
2nd choice: hold mute down
3rd choice: colored button

Not fully following the menu stuff...are you saying to have to go into menu each time to turn it off or on? If so, I guess so, but certainly 4th choice for me.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Don, your first choice is excellent for people who want it on when the sound is muted, but I live in a house with my deaf brother. It would be nice if I could listen while he reads.


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## 4DThinker (Dec 17, 2006)

Just curious.... has anyone determined if the CC ON/OFF command might be already in the HR20 via an advanced IR command. It won't help those using the OEM remote, but if you've got a OneForAll that controls your HR20, then you can search all 000 though 255 EFCs to see if there is a CC command. Once anyone finds it I'll bet everyone with a universal remote can start using it soon.

I have a deaf brother who comes to visit a few times each year. When he's here we turn on CC. It's very nice on some TVs to have it come on when the TV is muted, but he has "some" hearing and prefers to watch TV with the minimal sounds he can hear playing. I'd love there to be a one-button toggle for CC. having it on the first menu screen would be nice. You'll still need a broader CC option somewhere as there is more than one CC option to choose from.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Would it be posible to hold acitive button for 3 seconds toggle the CC?

Just a thought!


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

I don't see how the MUTE button would work. Holding buttons down is a dumb technique with remote controls. They don't work well with universal and learning remotes (D* has to stop assuming THEIR remote is the only one in use).

In addition, how does the HR20 know your TV is muted? 

Many of us don't use TV sound anyway, we use home theater sound. 

And even if you use TV sound, some TVs go off mute when you use volume up/down so it would be easy to get out of synch.

I would be happy with a quick pick off the menu (like the Audio choices) or a color button while watching live or recorded TV or something like the audio choices in Tivo (highlight an icon in the banner) but that would take some big rework as far as I can tell.


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

KitchMD said:


> Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


My vote


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

Capmeister said:


> Make it a MENU option. AUDIO OPTIONS is under menu. Make it MENU/CAPTION OPTIONS, with Edit Settings / Captions On / Captions Off as the three choices.
> 
> This avoids people accidentally turning captions on with a button press, yet is easily accessable. It takes a 16 step process down to 3 or 4.
> 
> (Personally I'd like them to map red or green for switching to the other tuner.)


1. Green could always toggle on/off cc while Red could toggle between tuners.

2. It should be right off the 'Menu' as Earl proposed as well.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I have a Mitsubishi TV that automatically turns on the CC when you hit mute. My Sony TV does not. I love the feature.

I don't think thay can duplicate it with so many different brands of TV's out there, so a simple one button push (red or green) to toggle off or on is my vote.


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

The red and green buttons currently have nothing to do while watching a program so one of those buttons could be an ideal candidate for the CC toggle. Unless there are other plans for these buttons.

Then another color could be used for the tuner toggle as well. The tuner toggle needs to be given top priority tho IMO.

Ultimately there should be a way to program these unused color buttons to whatever the end user wants them to be. That should be the a longer term goal to shoot for.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tonyd79 said:


> I don't see how the MUTE button would work. Holding buttons down is a dumb technique with remote controls. They don't work well with universal and learning remotes (D* has to stop assuming THEIR remote is the only one in use).


They can only program for the common point, and that is the RC series of remotes. It is possible that they can release the IR codes that are used for those advanced features, so those advanced remotes can use it.

But they can't really account for every different universal out there... on what it can and can't do.

There are only so many buttons on that RC series remote.


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## machavez00 (Nov 2, 2006)

KitchMD said:


> Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


+1


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## machavez00 (Nov 2, 2006)

Phil T said:


> I have a Mitsubishi TV that automatically turns on the CC when you hit mute. My Sony TV does not. I love the feature.
> 
> I don't think thay can duplicate it with so many different brands of TV's out there, so a simple one button push (red or green) to toggle off or on is my vote.


TV based CC will not work as there is no CC sent over the HDMI. I get the "not supported" message when I press the CC on my OEM remote when HDMI input is selected. I haven't tried it with the component input.


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

I like the idea of adding it to the Audio Options under Menu (I know really a Display Option). I think this would be the easiest to implement and no conflicts with other remotes as it's not assigned to a button.
Additionally they could add CC on/off to the mute button, by holding mute for 2 seconds to toggle.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They can only program for the common point, and that is the RC series of remotes. It is possible that they can release the IR codes that are used for those advanced features, so those advanced remotes can use it.
> 
> But they can't really account for every different universal out there... on what it can and can't do.
> 
> There are only so many buttons on that RC series remote.


Yes, they can not account for every remote but there are many things that universals do not do well and they should take that into account.

Personally, I think they waste buttons on the remote. I hate to compare this box to TiVo but TiVo did a great job of maximizing button usage, mostly by making the arrows do things when they were not needed for pointing. For example, the arrow down on the HR20 does nothing (but bongs now) when I am watching live TV. The Tivo used it to switch buffers. The arrow up does nothing. The Tivo used it to change resolutions.

For that matter, the right and left arrows do nothing while in viewing mode either.

The tendency for many devices (including cable boxes) to assign buttons to single functions no matter what the context is not a good trend.


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

Dang I forgot about all those unused arrow buttons. Yeah they need to make more use of those by all means.


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

Buy " Hearing Ears" and you won't have to use CC, unless someone is sleeping.


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## katesguy (Jan 12, 2007)

KitchMD said:


> Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


My vote also.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

KitchMD said:


> Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


*+8*


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

finaldiet said:


> Buy " Hearing Ears" and you won't have to use CC, unless someone is sleeping.


It may come as a surprise to you, but closed captioning isn't merely a convenience implemented for hearing people. It's a necessity for the deaf.


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

The Official State Question of New Mexico really is, "Red or Green?"

There's always Christmas, so put me down for +9.

EDIT - but whatever makes Capmeister happy is ok by me.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

KitchMD said:


> Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


Hey! That was my idea last night in the chat  (Great minds think alike)

The suggestion made last night was to have the *Red *button jump to Search and the *Green *button toggle CC. The reason for the Green button is that it is next to the Yellow button for secondary audio (some relation there)


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

jediphish said:


> I like this Idea. As I understand what you are suggesting it would work this way:
> 
> 1. Press Menu (CC should be near the top of the menu list)
> 2. Highlight CC
> ...


Still too many button presses. A pain in the neck for those who want or have to use it on a regular basis.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

brittonx said:


> Still too many button presses. A pain in the neck for those who want or have to use it on a regular basis.


But then also not as "easy" to accidentally hit... and not know how to turn it off.


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But then also not as "easy" to accidentally hit... and not know how to turn it off.


What about the mini-guide or going to another language? How is red or green bad for CC when blue or yellow are good for other things?


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## SAlBO (Jan 6, 2007)

I use CC when I need to have the volume down low myself and would love to have it just a one button push but most things on this machine take quite a few button pushes....That said, i like the arrow button idea.....its not like they have a use now....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

macEarl said:


> What about the mini-guide or going to another language? How is red or green bad for CC when blue or yellow are good for other things?


It's not...

However, accidental hits of the "audio"/YELLOW button is a common support call they get. (as a lot of the HD channels state a 2nd track but it is empty, so they get dead air)... but most SD programs don't have a 2nd track... so hitting Yellow doesn't always do anything.

The Blue, people just hit EXIT to get out of.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It's not...
> 
> However, accidental hits of the "audio"/YELLOW button is a common support call they get. (as a lot of the HD channels state a 2nd track but it is empty, so they get dead air)... but most SD programs don't have a 2nd track... so hitting Yellow doesn't always do anything.
> 
> The Blue, people just hit EXIT to get out of.


Perhaps the HR20 should put up a brief small window showing a Green button with the words "Closed Captioning Activated - Press the Green button again to deactivate"

They should do something similar for the yellow button.


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## YankeeFan (Jan 31, 2006)

Add my vote to using one of the colored buttons. CC should be a one-button deal (just like any other TV remote)...NOT a menu item.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

brittonx said:


> Perhaps the HR20 should put up a brief small window showing a Green button with the words "Closed Captioning Activated - Press the Green button again to deactivate"
> 
> They should do something similar for the yellow button.


Then you are up to two button clicks (the select to turn of the window) 

-----------

One thing we have to remember with this:
Closed Caption is a feature that is used by a fair amount of the populate.

However; IMHO - It is one of those featuers that most of the users of it leave on 24/7. Kinda like most of us with Digital Audio settings.

They don't turn it on and off.

While it would be nice to have a quick button to turn it on... how often would it be used? by how many people?

Now.. I can completely understand, the 10+ buttons it takes now, is a bit much for the casual user of CC... hence why... IMHO the Menu->Audio->CC ON/OFF is my choice

As for using the "arrows"... what if the left and right where re-done to be jump to ticks? And Up and Down for something else....

The choice on what is used can't be done lightly... as once it is out there for a little while... it can not easily be changed with out causing some issues...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

YankeeFan said:


> Add my vote to using one of the colored buttons. CC should be a one-button deal (just like any other TV remote)...NOT a menu item.


3 of my TV's (the non-integrated ones), the CC is not a button on the remote. I have to go through the menu's.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Then you are up to two button clicks (the select to turn of the window)


No, the window should be on a delay just like the channel banner.

Only one click unless you want the window to go away faster than the default delay


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

brittonx said:


> No, the window should be on a delay just like the channel banner.
> 
> Only one click unless you want the window to go away faster than the default delay


But if the delay on the banner isn't short enough, you are going to miss some of the text of the CC that you just turned on...


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But if the delay on the banner isn't short enough, you are going to miss some of the text of the CC that you just turned on...


Not if the "window" is placed opposite of where the CC is placed. It's all in the details.

It's easy to see issues when all possibilities for implementation are not considered. 

(I've got a fair bit of usability design in my background)  
( Which absolutely doesn't mean I'm right however  )


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

The ultimate solution is to have a set of user defined buttons to activate just about any option or menu page with one key press. Be it the colored buttons, arrow buttons or whatever.

I realize this would most likely take a longer time to implement but should certainly be doable and should be a goal that is worked towards over the course of time.

IF....there are no other plans for the keys then in the interim my vote is for green for CC(if it must have it's own button) and red(more like the red record indicators in the HR10) for tuner swapping as the default usages.(this one MUST get it's own button). Otherwise the top level menu idea for CC is the best idea.


Down arrow for swapping tuners would be just fine as well as long as they can do it without Tivo pitching a fit.

Personally CC swapping is pretty much useless to me but I can see where it could be useful for some I guess.
OTOH one button tuner swapping is a MUST HAVE item and needs to get top priority.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

brittonx said:


> Not if the "window" is placed opposite of where the CC is placed. It's all in the details.
> 
> It's easy to see issues when all possibilities for implementation are not considered.
> 
> ...


We "could" play this game all day...

But IIRC; Closed Caption doesn't always appear in the same spot of the screen for every show, every time... right? 

...

But as you said... there is a lot to consider with almost any choice and option selected.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

The Yellow button is currently used for audio. Continue to use it for captioning. Just add captioning to the list that the yellow button cycles through. I would also add it as a menu option.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

brittonx said:


> Not if the "window" is placed opposite of where the CC is placed. It's all in the details.
> 
> It's easy to see issues when all possibilities for implementation are not considered.
> 
> ...


Except CC doesn't render when other menus are up. Sadly. Wish it did. (and wish it worked on FFx1)

I'm in favor of a few button clicks--2 or 3--rather than the 16 it takes now. I don't need a single button to do it. Earl is right about those of us who use it mostly for it's real purpose--we leave it on 99% of the time.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

KitchMD said:


> Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


I already have dibs on the red button to replace the "--" for delete.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

To expand further to what I posted above.

Add menu option to add captions to Yellow button options. Off/On

When on, if you do Menu->Audio Options you would see:
English DD
English DD w/CC
English
English w/CC
etc.

The yellow button would cycle through as it does now.

When off, there would be no change from what we currently have.


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Then you are up to two button clicks (the select to turn of the window)
> 
> -----------
> 
> ...


I turn CC on and off frequently. ON for my wife who often has trouble understanding accents, etc. on some of her favorite mystery shows - OFF for me for most everything. 
That being said I would still prefer a 2-3 button push menu item. Once you assign a button to a specific function it probably won't change. There may be future needs for wishlist items yet to be implemented. Look before you leap.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

First of all, I'm glad we're discussing this. Considering who the OP is, it means that it's possible the developers are too.

I have to come out _against_ the Menu-based option if it is to be the only option. It doesn't make it much easier than it currently is. There's still hitting menu, then multiple buttons to get what you want. I can tell you right now that's not very spouse-friendly.

I also understand that a single button like red or green could be done by mistake.

I don't favor the mute idea because as much as that's what I want, I think it would be difficult to implement, since the mute button controls a different component for everyone and some components might not take well to receiving the mute signal for 3 seconds.

The solution is to implement both, or if not, only the colored button. The menu>setup>display menu should show the current state of CC and if you push it by mistake you can still turn it off from there. The INFO screen could say *o Captions* every time you change channels or push info.

I favor the red button because captions are "read". Stupid maybe but it appeals to me.

Single button CC is the one of the last must-haves for me, even more important than DLB.


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## DishDog (Nov 10, 2006)

For CC Quick Toggle I vote for:
Menu->CC On/Off


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Capmeister said:


> Except CC doesn't render when other menus are up. Sadly. Wish it did. (and wish it worked on FFx1)


Currently... Yes.

The question would be, could they be made to work together?

The first answer to a request of this type is usually: It would be too difficult.

With my dev team, the usability will usually win out over ease for the development staff.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Whatever D* comes up with, one CC option I'd like to see is a user selectable option to enable CC when the mute button is hit. When viewing OTA signals on my most of my sets mute will bring up CC but since D* STB's don't pass the CC data in the VBI (at least in the NTSC signal, don't know how ATSC works) they can't do it.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

RAD said:


> Whatever D* comes up with, one CC option I'd like to see is a user selectable option to enable CC when the mute button is hit. When viewing OTA signals on my most of my sets mute will bring up CC but since D* STB's don't pass the CC data in the VBI (at least in the NTSC signal, don't know how ATSC works) they can't do it.


I would like to see this too!


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

RAD said:


> Whatever D* comes up with, one CC option I'd like to see is a user selectable option to enable CC when the mute button is hit. When viewing OTA signals on my most of my sets mute will bring up CC but since D* STB's don't pass the CC data in the VBI (at least in the NTSC signal, don't know how ATSC works) they can't do it.


I have one main issue with the mute suggestion. In one word it is Telemundo. The last thing I need is to have black boxes of words covering the images on my muted television.     :nono2:


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

armophob said:


> I have one main issue with the mute suggestion. In one word it is Telemundo. The last thing I need is to have black boxes of words covering the images on my muted television.     :nono2:


Isn't that what the translucency is for


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

brittonx said:


> Isn't that what the translucency is for


I guess I don't know. I have never used CC. I just know I want my Telemundo free of any obstructions.  
I just want to be sure I have an option to have it permanently unselectable. An on/off in the menu that toggles whatever option is arrived on here.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

armophob said:


> I guess I don't know. I have never used CC. I just know I want my Telemundo free of any obstructions.
> I just want to be sure I have an option to have it permanently unselectable. An on/off in the menu that toggles whatever option is arrived on here.


Any advisory popup window should be able to be disabled.


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

Once you drill down to the CC menu you can get back to it by pushing the back button. In case someone might not know that.

I'm starting to be of the opinion that maybe making some type of top level menu item is the best compromise, saving the colored buttons for more universally useful things.

I'm thinking it should be a top level menu item and having it be nothing more than a toggle with a little dot next to it indicating wheter it is off or on. This in combination with getting the menus to remember one's previous selection should make this a pretty good compromise for all.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

I like the top menu idea. It is at most three clicks, which is not horrible. My old Sony took up to three (to toggle thru different options). My current Sony is as bad as the HR20.

The arrows in my post were just an example that was off the top of my head on multiple use for keys in context so that we don't have to battle over every button or build elaborate menus for everything. There are probably other buttons that can be used more extensively. I haven't thought it all out. I hope the development team does and doesn't take the lazy way out of just making buttons primarily one function even if the function doesn't make sense.

I will give a good example for the HR20 (channel up/down does a page up/down in list context). The abymsal SA8300 I have for Comcast uses special page up/down buttons that do nothing outside the context of lists. And when I naturally use the channel up/down, it leaves the list!

I vote for Earl's idea. I do change CC often (depends on program) and 2 to 3 button clicks would be comfortable.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

We toggle CC on and off all of the time.

When watching something like ER where the dialog is fast or people have accents, we have it on but turn it back off at other times.

For people who always leave CC on it does not matter whether you set is once with 19 keystrokes or once with 6.

This post is asking how best to _toggle _CC on and off.

We now have 13 votes for using the *red *or *green *buttons.

- Craig


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What if just one entry on the Menu->Audio CC On/Off (toggle).
> If you want to edit it... you have to go the full audio menu (as how often do you really have to edit the settings other then on/off ?)


I like this one or the red button CC Off/On. I am not in favor of the mute button since I still like to have the audio on and my mute button controls the muting on my reciever. Sometimes I like to turn CC off, when my GF isn't watching ( she needs CC).

One suggestion that might save some steps and might be easier to implement is to number the menu items so that by pressing the corresponding number you could go directly to the menu item instead of scrolling down thru the menu.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> For people who always leave CC on it does not matter whether you set is once with 19 keystrokes or once with 6.
> 
> This post is asking how best to toggle CC on and off.


 +1

I'm not an HR20 user yet, but a very frustrated HR10 user who is not hearing impaired, but often needs to put on captions to understand what someone speaking fast in a show said when neither the wife or I have understood it.

Why should turning Closed Captions on/off be any different than enabling subtitles on DVD players? Like most DVD player remotes, there should be a single button that toggles through the various CC (subtitle) modes. Mapping it to the red button during video playback sounds like a good idea. If someone hits it by mistake, a press or two of the same button will turn captions off again. Not a huge inconvenience, IMHO.

/steve


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

BubblePuppy said:


> I am not in favor of the mute button since I still like to have the audio on and my mute button controls the muting on my reciever.


I wasn't sugguesting that the mute button be the one and only toggle, just make it an additional option to allow for it if you wanted it.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

RAD said:


> I wasn't sugguesting that the mute button be the one and only toggle, just make it an additional option to allow for it if you wanted it.


The use of the mute for this purpose has been brought up several times in other threads besides this one. I wasn't refering to your post. I was just giving my opinion on which button to use.


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## machavez00 (Nov 2, 2006)

macEarl said:


> The Official State Question of New Mexico really is, "Red or Green?"


Respuesta:eso es facil; Con frijoles, colorado; con carnre, verde!


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

RAD said:


> I wasn't sugguesting that the mute button be the one and only toggle, just make it an additional option to allow for it if you wanted it.


I retract my previous objection. I never use the CC option, but I also never use the mute on the HR20 remote. It is set up for the speaker on the Panasonic, which I also never use. 
I still would like the option to turn the toggle option off in the menu somewhere, in case any of that changes.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Say, menu>help&settings>setup>display>Captioning>mute to CC on or off


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

machavez00 said:


> Respuesta:eso es facil; Con frijoles, colorado; con carnre, verde!


¡Recuerde: Con carne adovada, rojo - con papitas, verde - fácil, sí!


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

This is my #1 wish list item ahead of DLBs even and I would like to see the conversation continue on it. 

I asked my wife what she thought last night and pretty much the only scenario she was interested in was true 1-button CC, like the subtitle button on DVD players. Menu options are uninteresting to her. She's fairly tech savvy but hates drilling down more than one level. 

Please, developers, you've listened to us in the past, the red button isn't doing anything else...


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

armophob said:


> Say, menu>help&settings>setup>display>Captioning>mute to CC on or off


Yep.. just add it to the new options list they are building..


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> I asked my wife what she thought last night and pretty much the only scenario she was interested in was true 1-button CC, like the subtitle button on DVD players. Menu options are uninteresting to her. She's fairly tech savvy but hates drilling down more than one level.
> 
> Please, developers, you've listened to us in the past, the red button isn't doing anything else...


Exactly right. One-button subtitles have worked on DVD player remotes for years, so why re-invent the wheel? Subsequent presses of the button could cycle through any CC options there may be, and eventually return to "CC off", IMHO. And if someone hits it by mistake, it's only a press or more on the same button your finger is already on to undo it.

Also, mapping CC's to the red button during video playback would make CC's functional on universal learning remotes.

/steve


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

sluciani said:


> Exactly right. One-button subtitles have worked on DVD player remotes for years, so why re-invent the wheel? Subsequent presses of the button could cycle through any CC options there may be, and eventually return to "CC off", IMHO. And if someone hits it by mistake, it's only a press or more on the same button your finger is already on to undo it.
> 
> Also, mapping CC's to the red button during video playback would make CC's functional on universal learning remotes.
> 
> /steve


However.... Part of the reason WHY they worked, is that the remote was labled accordingly... so if it is turned on, you can look at your remote and have a good chance of finding which button to hit to turn it off.

Mapping some of those functions to the color buttons....

For example: We often see posts here and on some of the other forums about the Yellow button.

"Something changed, my Yellow button doesn't mute my audio anymore".

That is because the user didn't know that the Yellow was rotating through the available audio's, and why it "muted" on occasion was becasue there was an empty audio track.

Again... the choice of using one of those "other" buttons can not be done easily.

Why? once it is there... there is 1000x more difficult to change it later, if you want one of those two buttons to do something else during playback.

Now that I think about it: The Red button is being used... 99% sure the Green is too.

The Red button is used when you are on interactive "enabled" channels such as HotPass and Sunday Ticket (and I am sure eventually EI).

I can't recall... but I thought the Green button did something as well for the HotPass


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## bcowan12 (Oct 4, 2006)

KitchMD said:


> Map it to the red or green button on the remote. They aren't used for anything while watching live TV.


My vote is for this too. I only use CC to quickly figure out a word or two of missed dialog, and then turn it off again. It shouldn't be more than one or two key presses, and definitely not a "hold down a button for 3 seconds" deal. (Slow motion, and skip to mark have been rendered almost useless by that approach.)

The toggle should just activate with the options you have configured on the full CC setup screen. One press on, next press off.

Bruce


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Now that I think about it: The Red button is being used... 99% sure the Green is too.
> 
> The Red button is used when you are on interactive "enabled" channels such as HotPass and Sunday Ticket (and I am sure eventually EI).
> 
> I can't recall... but I thought the Green button did something as well for the HotPass


Thanks, Mr. B, I didn't know these buttons were used in Hotpass and Sunday Ticket. I know it will take you to "What's Hot" if you're in a mix channel.

I would be satisfied if Red turned CCs on when viewing non-interactive channels, and a different method, like quick menu, were available all the time.

Your points are all excellent, of course, but I do feel that 1-button CC is a significant feature worth implementing. A press-and-hold option would be my second choice, not as desirable because other remotes like Harmony don't do as well with the press-and-hold. But what other button? Mute would be too hard to implement because you'd have to send two different codes. Press-and-hold Yellow would switch to a different audio track.

Maybe press-and-hold menu or dash?

My holdout choice, if the developers are determined to put in on the quick menu only, would be to put it fairly high on the list, and have it be a toggle. In other words, you push menu, then the third option after Help and Setup, would be Captions. Selecting it would toggle captions on/off.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

lamontcranston said:


> My holdout choice, if the developers are determined to put in on the quick menu only, would be to put it fairly high on the list, and have it be a toggle. In other words, you push menu, then the third option after Help and Setup, would be Captions. Selecting it would toggle captions on/off.


I like this too. I wouldn't mind the other option Earl suggested either, but this would be my favorite.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> However.... Part of the reason WHY they worked, is that the remote was labled accordingly... so if it is turned on, you can look at your remote and have a good chance of finding which button to hit to turn it off.
> 
> Mapping some of those functions to the color buttons....
> 
> ...


In this otherwise handicapped-accesible age we live in, it's amazing to me that the FCC hasn't yet mandated a CC/subtitle button on any piece of video gear manufactured for domestic consumption!

You're right, the button should be properly labeled. Because it's not, however, having to dig through menus is still not an acceptable way to turn CC's on, even it if it can be re-programmed to fewer keystrokes.

If DirecTV REALLY wanted to do the right thing, they should pick a button that's otherwise unused during video playback and mail every user a stick-on "CC" decal for it, until they eventually re-silkscreen newer remotes! 

I'm passionate about this issue because I've lived for so many years without a CC button on the otherwise incredibly user-friendly HR-10. I just can't believe the Tivo engineers ignored this issue all this time. Maybe DirecTV can make it right at last.

Just my $.02.

/steve


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

sluciani said:


> In this otherwise handicapped-accesible age we live in, it's amazing to me that the FCC hasn't yet mandated a CC/subtitle button on any piece of video gear manufactured for domestic consumption!
> 
> You're right, the button should be properly labeled. Because it's not, however, having to dig through menus is still not an acceptable way to turn CC's on, even it if it can be re-programmed to fewer keystrokes.
> 
> ...


You go Steve! It probably should be part of the FCC mandate that CC be toggled easily with a minimum of keypresses. I'd still like to see 1-button but what I'm hearing from Earl's post is that it may simply not be possible with the current remotes. You're right, at some point new remotes might be the best way to go. In the meantime...

Here's an "edgecutter" idea-- code in 1-button CC for an unused discrete code. Submit the code to remotecentral.com and harmonyremote.com -- this would be an amazing display of cooperation with the user community -- and let users of Prontos, Harmonys, and other PC-programmable remotes have the code. This would take very little time. It would open the door to 1-button CC on future remotes, using the existing discrete code, and in the meantime would enhance DirecTV's credibility in the user communities.

Too far out? Am I dreaming?


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What if just one entry on the Menu->Audio CC On/Off (toggle).
> If you want to edit it... you have to go the full audio menu (as how often do you really have to edit the settings other then on/off ?)


I would like to see a one button option for CC. However, I think this solution (above) would be far better than what we have now.

Also - I would not want a one button solution at the expense of a one button tuner switch. Like Cap said, if it came down to either-or, I would rather a one button touch to switch tuners.


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## Schyler (Sep 8, 2006)

The suggestion about adding CC to the existing audio menu sounds great... but what about making a slight change to the yellow button?

If people are already confused about the function of yellow button, what if pressing it was a shortcut that went directly to this revised audio/captioning menu?

It would probably only add a click or two for those who already use it to simply cycle audio tracks...

Just a thought.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Schyler said:


> The suggestion about adding CC to the existing audio menu sounds great... but what about making a slight change to the yellow button?
> 
> If people are already confused about the function of yellow button, what if pressing it was a shortcut that went directly to this revised audio/captioning menu?
> 
> ...


Personally I think that's too intrusive to the user experience.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I'm at a disadvantage not being an HR20 user yet, but to Earl's point, if the colored buttons all have uses during playback, what about the "stop", or TV "on" and "off" buttons? Do they have any function when viewing recorded or live TV on an HR-20? I assume the blank white button to the left of "0" is a "+100" button?

I'm looking at a picture of the remote here.

/steve


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

sluciani said:


> I'm at a disadvantage not being an HR20 user yet, but to Earl's point, if the colored buttons all have uses during playback, what about the "stop", or TV "on" and "off" buttons? Do they have any function when viewing recorded or live TV on an HR-20? I assume the blank white button to the left of "0" is a "+100" button?
> 
> I'm looking at a picture of the remote here.
> 
> /steve


Stop is used during playback, and you might want CC at that time. TV on powers the TV. The button to the left of 0 is "dash" and it's used in the entry of HD subchannels on OTA stations. The user experience would be impacted by using these buttons.


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

sluciani said:


> I'm at a disadvantage not being an HR20 user yet, but to Earl's point, if the colored buttons all have uses during playback, what about the "stop", or TV "on" and "off" buttons? Do they have any function when viewing recorded or live TV on an HR-20? I assume the blank white button to the left of "0" is a "+100" button?
> 
> I'm looking at a picture of the remote here.
> 
> /steve


The button to the left of the zero isn't blank. It's the "-" button (dash). This is used for OTA digital channels.
I still say assigning a button from the current remote is the wrong way to go. 2-3 button pushes compared to what we have presently is perfectly acceptable.

(beat me to it lamontcranston )


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

lamontcranston said:


> It probably should be part of the FCC mandate that CC be toggled easily with a minimum of keypresses.


Buh? The law should mandate this? :eek2:

The law about CC benefits me and on DBS--a service one pays for--I don't even think it should be a LAW.


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## TMullenJr (Feb 23, 2006)

I agree with using one of the colored buttons. But it should be two presses. The first press shows the current setting & a 2nd press will toggle it. That should greatly reduce the accidental activations.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

There's a difference between a mandate and a law, at least technically. I generally stand firmly against those who crow "there oughta be a law" whenever possible. I am faily libertarian in my own views. 

However, since broadcasting began, and technically satellite delivery is broadcasting, the overwhelming idea is that the electromagnetic spectrum is publicly owned, like the public parks, and the government has a responsibility to maintain it for the public good.
Hence broadcast licensing, etc. It's not a perfect system but at the moment it's what we have.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Just put an option in the menus for "cc on mute"... simple and efective..


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

houskamp said:


> Just put an option in the menus for "cc on mute"... simple and efective..


That would be good in addition to another toggle option because sometimes you want CC AND sound.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

houskamp said:


> Just put an option in the menus for "cc on mute"... simple and efective..


Great idea! Maybe the mute button can be optionally configured to cycle through cc, cc/mute, and normal.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

CC on mute doesn't work since mute affects your TV or receiver, not your DVR. The remote would have to broadcast two different codes, the second to be read by the DVR, and at the moment that's beyond what the hardware can do.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> CC on mute doesn't work since mute affects your TV or receiver, not your DVR. The remote would have to broadcast two different codes, the second to be read by the DVR, and at the moment that's beyond what the hardware can do.


Too bad. I assume the same holds true for the TV "on/off" buttons? How about the "stop button". Does it have any function when watching live TV or recordings? Or is it just there for DVD/VCR compatibility?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Now the technical question. 
If programming the remote using product codes to work with user end equipment, changes the values of the remote mute button. 
Doesn't that eliminate it as an option?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

sluciani said:


> Too bad. I assume the same holds true for the TV "on/off" buttons? How about the "stop button". Does it have any function when watching live TV or recordings? Or is it just there for DVD/VCR compatibility?


you beat me to it as I typed


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

only other option I can think of is to move 'setup' on the menu to the bottom and put a 'cc on/off' there...


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Does sliding the D*,av1,av2,tv bar at the top change the value of the mute and give it back to the HR20? Could the mute still be configured but you would need to slide the switch first?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

It wouldn't be possible to create a new discrete code and have it work with existing remotes, but... see my post above. If they did this and built it into future remotes then those with PC learning remotes could already use it. 

There's probably some political or marketing reason why you can't do this, I'm sure.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> It wouldn't be possible to create a new discrete code and have it work with existing remotes, but... see my post above. If they did this and built it into future remotes then those with PC learning remotes could already use it.
> 
> There's probably some political or marketing reason why you can't do this, I'm sure.


As a user of a 'programable remote' this is always my bigest complaint with remotes.. The equipment can understand 'x' many commands but the cheap remote only has some of those buttons.. even so called 'highend' stuff does this..


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Capmeister said:


> Make it a MENU option. AUDIO OPTIONS is under menu. Make it MENU/CAPTION OPTIONS, with Edit Settings / Captions On / Captions Off as the three choices.
> 
> This avoids people accidentally turning captions on with a button press, yet is easily accessable. It takes a 16 step process down to 3 or 4.
> 
> (Personally I'd like them to map red or green for switching to the other tuner.)


That might work well. Caller ID is a toggle under it's listing in the mini menu, why not just add a CC toggle option under the Audio listing in the mini menu?


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## DaHound (Nov 20, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> I am faily libertarian in my own views.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

I would still like to see it tied to the mute button.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Ok, if it were a perfect world, then it would work in tandem with the mute button. Owners of Sharp and Philips TVs have this if they go straight into the TV and use the TV for audio control. That's a nice feature, I'll grant you.

It seems that's not a level of integration that's possible right now. There are hardware issues with the remotes, for one thing. Also, every manufacturer uses a different code for mute. Sure it would be great if they didn't, but they do.

The real central point of this is that CC information isn't sent through HDMI or component. If it were then we could use the decoders in our TVs and it would be done. The way I understand the FCC mandate is that the HR20 is required to provide closed captioning, and so it does. Actually, I think the CC is quite nice, nicer than anything else I've seen, with proportional fonts, choice of sizes and colors, etc. If I had a choice, I'd rather use the HR20 than my TV for captioning.

The real question, and the thing that we're discussing, is -- given what's possible with the hardware, then how would you better manage CC. It was said here several months ago that CC was hidden so far down deep because they knew it was basically broken. Maybe that's true and maybe not, but it's no longer broken, in my opinion. So how do you make it easier to turn on and off given what you've got in the DVR and remote?

_Looks like mute isn't going to work._ I wish that weren't so but just because we wish for it, doesn't make it so.

_Colored buttons might be reserved for other functions._ Even if we're not aware of it, it sounds like the developers might have colored buttons in mind for something else, future interactive features for example. Maybe even DLB.

Given that those two options seem to be off the table, what's the next best thing? Seems like we get back to the quick menu again. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it is better than the way it is now.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Put a toggle at the top level of the Quick Menu.

Push 1 -- Quick Menu
Push 2 thru maybe 4 -- Arrow Down to toggle.
Push 3 or maybe 5 -- Select to toggle (menu goes away).

For the sake of argument, any down arrow push I would actually call one thing as it is not so bad to push the same button a few times, so this would basically be a three button push.

That is not so bad.

Heck, if you want to change formats on SD viewing, you have to go thru multiple pushes, too.

It is when you have to navigate up/down/around is when it gets nasty.

Oh, and maybe a notice in the banner that says (CC On or CC Off so you know the status).


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

What about the arrow left and/or right? When out of the menu's do these function for anything else? I still think it should be optioned as feature on or off in the caption area of the menu because I frequently hit these instead of FF and RW. But they are very accessible. And the sound can be separate with the existing mute.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Capmeister said:


> Make it a MENU option. AUDIO OPTIONS is under menu. Make it MENU/CAPTION OPTIONS, with Edit Settings / Captions On / Captions Off as the three choices.
> 
> This avoids people accidentally turning captions on with a button press, yet is easily accessable. It takes a 16 step process down to 3 or 4.
> 
> (Personally I'd like them to map red or green for switching to the other tuner.)


I would use a slight variation of this: Add a new top level menu option named "Turn Captions XX" that toggles closed captioning on and off, with XX indicating what will happen to CC when you choose it. When CC is off, the menu option reads "Turn Captions On". When CC is on, the menu option reads "Turn Captions Off". (If there's not enough room, eliminate the word "Turn".

The idea for me is that you want to be able to quickly turn CC on and off without having to remember what funky key combo to use on the remote, or what colored button to press. If users want to change CC settings, they drill into the menu. If they want to toggle it on and off, they choose the top level CC menu option.

This idea really ties in with an idea I posted about in the Wish List thread on 3/15/07 at 11:01 PM about having the Menu remember the last option selected. With an option named "Turn Caption XX" on the menu and the last selected option remembered, Captions become very simple to turn on and off. (See bolded paragraphs below - and vote for it on Doug's Wish List survey!)



drew2k said:


> Here's another change I'd like to see DirecTV implement: Have the menu remember the last option selected by the user.
> 
> The way it works now, every time you press MENU you are taken to the My Playlist item on the list. It would be great instead if every time you pressed MENU it highlighted the last option you used.
> 
> ...


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

If using an existing button, proves to difficult or confusing, then they need to make a new remote with a CC button. Just like they did with the big button remote. A new button right between the mute and prev buttons and above the 2 would work with the existing layout.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

drew2k said:


> I would use a slight variation of this: Add a new top level menu option named "Turn Caption sXX" that toggles closed captioning on and off, with XX indicating what will happen to CC when you choose it.
> 
> This idea ties in with an idea I posted about in the Wish List thread on 3/15/07 at 11:01 PM about having the Menu remember the last option selected. With an option named "Turn Caption XX" on the menu and the last selected option remembered, Captions become very simple to turn on and off. (See bolded paragraphs below.)


I think this is a great idea with one minor tweak - I would have the quick menu "forget" where it was after about an hour. If you walk away and come back, or someone else comes in, having the menu in a seemingly random position would be more confusing than helpful.


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

lamontcranston said:


> I think this is a great idea with one minor tweak - I would have the quick menu "forget" where it was after about an hour. If you walk away and come back, or someone else comes in, having the menu in a seemingly random position would be more confusing than helpful.


?????????
I'm more confused by this.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

RobertE said:


> The Yellow button is currently used for audio. Continue to use it for captioning. Just add captioning to the list that the yellow button cycles through. I would also add it as a menu option.


I love the brainstorming we have going!

I am really liking the idea of using the Yellow button to bring up a new Audio Sub Menu.

Here's why.

1. People hit the yellow button and don't know they did and report it as "I had to do a reset to get my audio back". I PM a lot of people reporting issues and try to help them. The yellow button has been the problem more than once.

2. With two clicks you could save the* 23 clicks Closed Captioning currently requries*: 
Menu>
Up Arrow>
Select>
Down Arrow>
Select>
Arrow Down>
Arrow Down>
Arrow Down>
Arrow Down>
Arrow Down>
SELECT>
Up Arrow>
Left Arrow>
Select>
Select>
Arrow Down>
Select>
Right Arrow>
Down Arrow>
Down Arrow>
Down Arrow>
Select>
Exit>

Yes there are tricks that can let you reduce your keystrokes but regardless a typical user is never going to remember that sequence. Close your eyes and see if you did.

So the Yellow Button brings up a new menu that shows just two Audio Options:
Closed Captioning XXX
Audio Track X
Exit

If CC is off, it would show as Closed Captioning: ON
If CC is On, it would show as Closed Captioning: OFF

If you are in the Primary Audio Track, it would show as Audio: Secondary
If you are in the Secondary Audio Track, it would show as Audio: Primary

So click the Yellow button for Audio Options.
then press Select Once to turn CC on or Off as the case may be. Done.

Two click CC. The Yellow Button wouldn't kill newbies or spouses any more. You fix two problems for the price of one.

- Craig


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Craig, as usual your ideas are well thought out and worth reading. I think if they were implemented the way you say, they might be satisfying for most people. I'd sure rather have a true 1-button solution but what you propose might be the easiest to implement. Right now the quick menu doesn't keep state information, but submenus like Audio do. Having Yellow go directly to an audio submenu instead of simply changing tracks would solve two problems: it would give us faster access to CC and also eliminate the problem where people think that Yellow=mute. 

Great brainstorm, let's keep it up!


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

I would also prefer a one button Closed Captioning button. My original request is to use the Red or Green buttons. But I understand what Earl is saying about not wanting yet another button that could accidentally be pressed.

Also, my first count of the current keystrokes to get closed captioning was wrong.

I will edit it to show that:

*It currently takes 23 keystrokes to turn CC On/Off!*

Wow. Mensa could use that labyrinth as one of the qualification tests.

- Craig


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

I can support Craig's last suggestion of an audio menu on the yellow button press.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Again, I'm not yet an HR20 user, so forgive me if this is a dumb question. Why does it say on page 2 of the "Tips and Tricks" PDF that CC's may be turned on and off by pressing the green button, followed by on/off? Is that only when you're inside the menu section?

/steve


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

sluciani said:


> Again, I'm not yet an HR20 user, so forgive me if this is a dumb question. Why does it say on page 2 of the "Tips and Tricks" PDF that CC's may be turned on and off by pressing the green button, followed by on/off? Is that only when you're inside the menu section?
> 
> /steve


Yep, I worked through every shortcut I could for the Tips & Tricks. I am impressed that you are already reading them.

The green button saves step 13. There is one other trick that can save keystrokes. At step 18 press Exit and you will save the remaining steps. Regardless, after months of having the HR20, my son and I are the only ones who can do CC.

-Craig
_Have you read the Installation Tips? Getting your new cabling and install right is everything. PM me if you have questions._


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Does this mean the HR20 can be made to "listen" for a second keypress? If so, perhaps the green button followed by "on" or "off" can also toggle CC's during video playback? I'm not sure that's the most elegant solution, but it's a thought.

/steve


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I would also prefer a one button Closed Captioning button. My original request is to use the Red or Green buttons. But I understand what Earl is saying about not wanting yet another button that could accidentally be pressed.
> 
> Also, my first count of the current keystrokes to get closed captioning was wrong.
> 
> ...


You got me counting keystrokes only to find I don't get CC on some local Sat channels. Thought it was broken. 
I did it in 17 by the way.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

For now the back button can be used to get right there as long as you haven't done anything else.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

23 button pushes or 17, still too many. 1 is ideal, <5 is probably acceptable.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> 23 button pushes or 17, still too many. 1 is ideal, <5 is probably acceptable.


Sorry to sound like a hardass, but why compound the felony by trying to work around the fact that there is no dedicated remote button, like the "Subtitle" button on every DVD remote? The "Subtitle" button has proven to be the successful and accepted metaphor for the consumer in the DVD world, and any deviation from this method makes absolutely no sense, for whatever reason.

As mentioned before, the programmers should just pick a button not used during video playback and assign a shortcut to it. There has to be at least one available. If need be, D* can send out a stick-on decal to indicate this button for existing remote users, and re-silkscreen or add a new button to future remotes.

/steve


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

sluciani said:


> Sorry to sound like a hardass, but why compound the felony by trying to work around the fact that there is no dedicated remote button, like the "Subtitle" button on every DVD remote? The "Subtitle" button has proven to be the successful and accepted metaphor for the consumer in the DVD world, and any deviation from this method makes absolutely no sense, for whatever reason.
> 
> As mentioned before, the programmers should just pick a button not used during video playback and assign a shortcut to it. There has to be at least one available. If need be, D* can send out a stick-on decal to indicate this button for existing remote users, and re-silkscreen or add a new button to future remotes.
> 
> /steve


But that is the point...

The DVD remote was "DESIGNED" at the time of it's creation to have another button ... SPECIFICALLY for Subtitles (and named on the remote as such).

Most DVD players and DVD's also have a menu for it.

You only have a limited number of buttons on the RC series of remotes.
So unless you come out with a new model, with more buttons... you are still limited with the number of buttons.

So you just can't go willy nilly assigning functions to the buttons, as once you do... you basically "lose" that button for something else in the future that would benefit more from a single button press.

I will still contend that Close Caption for the VAST majority of those that use it, are people that turn it on and leave it on (aka they don't toggle it on and off).

So you have to weight out the "Cost" (aka the cost of losing that button for future functions) vs Overall "Reward" at doing so.

Hence why I am still sticking with a quick toggle button on the Menu, similar to the way Caller-ID is toggled on an off: Menu->Messages->On/Off

CC Menu->Audio->CC On/Off

Not everything can be a single button push on the remote, unless you want a remote with a hundred buttons.

If it must be a button... then IMHO; It needs to be with the Audio Yellow button... A hold for 3s. As if you make it a scrollable option (Audio1-CC Off; Audio1-CC On; Audio 2-CC Off; Audio 3-CC On;....) that gets to be to much to "toggle" through, and you could end up with more button presses if you want Audio 3 CC-On; ect...


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Go ahead, sound like a hardass. I agree with you plenty, but it sounds like that option isn't being considered as seriously as a menu option. If I could do it, I'd do the following:

In regular TV watching or playback (not menus or interactive)

RED=Captions On/Off
GREEN=Resolution only change (do not change Pillar/Crop/Stretch)
YELLOW=Switch Audio
BLUE=Mini Guide

UP=Jump to Parental control unlocking screen while maintaining current channel
DOWN=Swap buffer
LEFT=Jump to beginning of currently buffering program
RIGHT=Jump to live

There are probably reasons why this isn't viable, and we here don't know them. That's why I'm willing to listen to the quick menu option, because I want them to do _something_.

I also disagree with Earl about the way most people use CC. People use it while on a phone call, while exercising, while vacuuming, etc. It was mandated for deaf people but lots of hearing people use it for convenience.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Another thought is to allow muting from the DVR instead of relying on the TV or receiver. I could see this being a problem, but if the mute key muted the output from the DVR it could also automatically turn on the CC. It probably wouldn't be too difficult to do in a new remote series, but with the current ones it might be impossible. 

I think the best solution would be one where we considered future use as well as current. As I've said before, if it's going to be a menu option, consider adding a discrete code that could be sent using learning remotes.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

sluciani said:


> Does this mean the HR20 can be made to "listen" for a second keypress? If so, perhaps the green button followed by "on" or "off" can also toggle CC's during video playback? I'm not sure that's the most elegant solution, but it's a thought.
> 
> /steve


No, what this refers to is once you are in the Display menu, you use the green button to tab to the next tab setting (the HR20 has tabs in many menus like many Windows dialog boxex) then you set the ON/OFF for captioning in the portion of the window for captioning. To set the ON/OFF, you have to make sure the selection is active, then hit select, a popup box comes up, pick the one you want then push select again. So, that simple on/off is more like 3 or more button clicks.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

lamontcranston said:


> Another thought is to allow muting from the DVR instead of relying on the TV or receiver. I could see this being a problem, but if the mute key muted the output from the DVR it could also automatically turn on the CC. It probably wouldn't be too difficult to do in a new remote series, but with the current ones it might be impossible.
> 
> I think the best solution would be one where we considered future use as well as current. As I've said before, if it's going to be a menu option, consider adding a discrete code that could be sent using learning remotes.


It better not turn it off if you normally have captions on, then. I often mute the TV but read the captions.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

...and anyway, if they added a discrete code for CC without sending everyone a free remote, there would be cries of "class action suit"!!


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If it must be a button... then IMHO; It needs to be with the Audio Yellow button... A hold for 3s.


For that part alone, _DEAR GOD NO!_ I'll love that about as much as holding down play for slo-mo or holding down FF (and wondering why you're at 5-mississippi sometimes with nothing happening).

By the way, my mileage varies on the on/off use of CC. Your point that deaf people need CC, therefore deaf people will use CC all of the time is correct - but that the majority of people using CC fit that scenario is probably not as hard a set rule as suggested - evidenced by the many opinions here to get it down to some short strokes.

Keep up the good work, but no more hold down the button stuff - really. Please.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So you just can't go willy nilly assigning functions to the buttons, as once you do... you basically "lose" that button for something else in the future that would benefit more from a single button press.
> 
> I will still contend that Close Caption for the VAST majority of those that use it, are people that turn it on and leave it on (aka they don't toggle it on and off).


I agree with you that the remote was not designef for CC's in the first place, but respectfully disagree with your feeling that closed captioning is not an important enough issue to waste an existing unassigned button on!

Yes, I have friends who are hearing impaired who leave them on all the time, but fortunately my wife, daughter and I hear just fine. We still like to put CC's on occasionally, tho, just to pick up a sentence or two we might have trouble understanding, usually because the speaker is talking rapidly in a low or accented voice. When we don't need to see them, however, I find CC's very distracting and like to keep them off.

I'm hopeful that if D* is going to take the time to address this issue, they choose to address it in a fashion consumers are already familiar with, like the DVD remote subtitle button. Just because they neglected to include it on day one doesn't mean the problem can't be fixed moving forward through an unused button reassignment today, and a new remote button in the future.

And now I'll shut up! I'm even annoying myself with my posts on this subject! 

/steve


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I agree that press-and-hold is a less desirable way to go. A submenu would be better. Technically press-and-hold satisfies the "1-button" requirement but it's not real intuitive and doesn't give any feedback to the user as to whether or not it's working.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

I have to revise my own opinion on this one. I remembered that whenever I watch something in DD 5.1, I press mute on the TV, then turn on the A/V receiver. I don't want the CC to come on when I do this, so I guess pressing mute isn't the best answer.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

sluciani said:


> I agree with you that the remote was not designef for CC's in the first place, but respectfully disagree with your feeling that closed captioning is not an important enough issue to waste an existing unassigned button on!
> 
> Yes, I have friends who are hearing impaired who leave them on all the time, but fortunately my wife, daughter and I hear just fine. We still like to put CC's on occasionally, tho, just to pick up a sentence or two we might have trouble understanding, usually because the speaker is talking rapidly in a low or accented voice. When we don't need to see them, however, I find CC's very distracting and like to keep them off.
> 
> ...


We have 5 and 6 year old boys, so in our house we call it "parent captioning." That's when you're tired of "24" turning into "72" and you just want to hear what Jack Bauer just mumbled. That's where Parent Captioning comes in, and you do want to switch it on and off.


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## jaybertx (Feb 18, 2007)

We're definitely a household that turns CC on and off frequently. One of my 12 year old sons is hard of hearing and the other has normal hearing so the CCs get switched back and forth a lot. A quick button or option on the main "menu" press is absolutely a godsend and I just appreciate the fact that D* is looking to speed things up no matter how it's done.

I personally prefer the menu toggle so that it's the same whether you're watching live TV or not...


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> I agree that press-and-hold is a less desirable way to go. A submenu would be better. Technically press-and-hold satisfies the "1-button" requirement but it's not real intuitive and doesn't give any feedback to the user as to whether or not it's working.


I whole-heartedly agree: Don't add any more features that are only available by holding a button for a certain duration! I still vote for a top-level CC toggle option on the Quick Menu. It works with ANY remote (RF, IR, universal, etc.), you don't need to learn new keystrokes, it's intuitive (becasue the toggle is visible in the menu), and you don't need to send labels to users to apply to remotes.

---

I'm another person that turns CC on and off frequently. It's not just always on and left on - I turn it on according to my needs. South Park? I have CC on. Several British shows? I have CC on. Other shows? I only turn it on after hitting instant replay a few times to try to understand what someone said, and then I turn CC off again. I know a LOT of people that toggle CC on and off as needed, so I don't agree that the people who use it leave it on all the time.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I turn it on for Battlestar Galactica, they mumble too much. The CC has whole lines that you can't hear on the show.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I know I promised to shut up, and please forgive me if this has been suggested before and I missed it. In anticipation of getting my HR20's next week, I've been RtFM'ing and I noticed the yellow button cycles through alternate audio tracks during video playback. I wonder if CC's could be added to this cycle of button pushes?

Normal-> Normal/CC -> SAP -> SAP/CC -> Normal

An info banner could briefly flash the current state of the button on each push. Just another thought. /s


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

It's not bad, but too many button pushes and has the potential while cycling through audio tracks for you to miss something being said. Sure you could pause if it's that important but that's not really the best solution.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

If there was a slight lag before change actually took effect and you did click too many times, you might be able to cycle past SAP back to "normal" (or wherever you wanted to go) and not miss anything being said. That's why I'd like to see the new state briefly displayed as you click.

This solution also addresses Earl's concerns about not changing existing button functions. Two or three clicks of the yellow button is easier than diving into menus, and no need to relabel the remote, because the new functionality is displayed on-screen as you click. Perhaps "Normal Audio", "NORMAL/CC", "SAP", and "SAP/CC".


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## mikeinthekeys (Feb 10, 2007)

Wow... I have been fussing to myself about the many button presses to change CC for months, and only just now found this thread! Way to go, people! My preference would be for a menu option where you could set a color button for what you wanted it to do. For example, mute audio and turn on CC, or just toggle CC on and off. I'm sure that the audio could be muted within the box so it wouldn't matter that the mute button activates the TV mode.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

*A Dramatically Faster User Interface* would allow you direct access to all menu functions. This would include making CC be two clicks.

- Craig


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## machavez00 (Nov 2, 2006)

Don't know if this has been posted. I was watching the free MLB EI and the red/green buttons are used for interactive functions on the game feeds. The quick menu method is the way to go.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Maybe there is a way that we can fix Closed Captioning and all of other problems all at once:

A Dramatically Faster User Interface

- Craig


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Maybe there is a way that we can fix Closed Captioning and all of other problems all at once:


What if we keep the yellow button idea but use it as a wild card. Give the end user the option of assigning it to "jump" to any function they use the most. A list of all functions can be in the menu remote options. Those who want it for CC can assign it for that. I can assign it for native on or off. The next guy can use it to jump to title search or whatever they want on command.


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## Cyrus (Oct 22, 2006)

I turn CC on and off frequently, to catch lines that I missed due to hard to understand accents or actors mumbling their lines. I use it a lot on shows like BSG, and in case of the movie "Sexy Beast" I eventually ended up leaving it on for good due to all those cockney accents.

So a mute button solution is not good for me as I want CC and sound to be on at the same time. A single button solution is ideal for me and I would love to have that but I understand the risk of getting complaints from people who accidentally turn it on but don't know how to turn it off.

"Menu->CC On/Off" is an acceptable compromise, certainly a lot better than what we have now.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

This may have been mentined...

Push YELLOW button
(All audio options appear.)

DDigital
Secondary Audio
CC1 (or just ON)
CC2 (or just OFF)
CC3

...or any order they want to put it in. In all my exp., which is quite limited with CC, it has been grouped with the Audio option.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Another idea comes from video games...

You can have different "controller settings" for the remote...

Remote 1 is NORMAL/DEFAULT
Remote 2 is yellow button CC
Remote 3 is ...
Remote 4 is ...
Remote 5 is USER DEFINED

Isn't there already a tab in the Setup menu for Remote?

anyone with video games has seen this where you can select different settings for your controller.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> This may have been mentined...
> 
> Push YELLOW button
> (All audio options appear.)
> ...


Coffey77 ... I didn't post it in this thread, but I posted a similar idea on 3/27/2007 in another thread:



drew2k said:


> While writing my response to Steve, I thought of a different way to use the YELLOW button AND the other colored buttons...
> 
> What if when you press YELLOW a menu pops-up on screen, in the same corner of the screen that the Caller-ID menu appears.
> 
> ...


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## joesigg (Feb 22, 2007)

My wife would like something simple. She wants to mute TV and watch CC when we receive a phone call, then un-mute and turn off CC when she's done talking on the phone. This worked with the old receivers.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

1. mute turns off with option in audio meno to turn this feature on or off.
2. yellow toggles cc if and only if dong normal viewing


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

They should pass the CC data through in the video signal like previous DirecTV tuners (including my DirecTV Tivo R10s) have done so that the closed caption capability built into your TV can be used.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> They should pass the CC data through in the video signal like previous DirecTV tuners (including my DirecTV Tivo R10s) have done so that the closed caption capability built into your TV can be used.


Unfortunately many displays, like my Fujitsu 50" plasma and the commercial Panasonic displays that are very popular, have no built-in ATSC tuner, so no ability to display CC's, even if they were to be passed via component or HDMI. /steve


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

My idea... sorry to be blunt... is that one of the fine ideas in this thread is implemented soon.


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## barryr (Sep 28, 2006)

Five months of suggestions should be more than enough. 

It's cost me five more months of 14-20 button pushes several times per day to enable and disable this feature that is routine in virtually every other video environment. Just pick one and do it! 

Every software update brings and then dashes hope that this relatively simple but immensely important (to many people) feature will be provided. 

No more than two clicks, please; don't care what it is. Turn captions on; turn captions off. One button is even better. Try something, and if it doesn't work fix it. Better is the enemy of good enough.

Just do it. Please!

Barry


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

I also like adding it to the Audio Options. Capmeister has lots of experience with this and his logic is excellent. 

I also think the color buttons should be saved for things tha need a "realtime" button. My FAVORITE would be to use the Yellow button for Slow Motion (and of course slow the SloMo down be half so that it is deserving of the name).

Edit: Somehow I missed the last 6 pages of this thread before I posted. I still like the Menu item, but I noticed that Yellow is (unfortunate -- makes a nice "slow down" analogo) already taken. So instead I nominate Red for Slow Motion.


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