# HD or not HD



## micklewhite (Jul 22, 2006)

I don't do HD (yet) so I hope someone would be kind enought to explain -

When there is a reference to/listing of "HDTV" in the E* context, does this simply mean the digital signal of the station or are there "all-HD" services.

For example,

KCBS - Channel 2 out of Los Angeles is the analog signal that is delivered via E* on channel 8001 (119)

KCBS-DT - Channel 60 out of Los Angeles is the digital signal that is delivered via E* on channel 6307 (129)

If you have KCBS-DT service *AND *an HD receiver *AND *an HD TV/monitor then you can view HD programming. However, only certain programs are broadcast in HD (everything else is still digital but SD).

So is it more accurate to refer to "digital locals" instead of "HD locals"?


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

micklewhite said:


> So is it more accurate to refer to "digital locals" instead of "HD locals"?


And absolutely correct. There are Analog Transmitted Signals (AT) and Digital Transmitted Signals (DT).
Standard Definition (SD) programming can be carried over either AT or DT signals.
High Definition (HD) programming can only be carried over DT signals.

As you posted, the designation should be AT vs DT, and not SD vs HD.

In 2009, when the FCC mandate ends Analog Transmissions, everything will be transmitted digitally, but of course, not everything will be in High Definition (I suppose we can wish).
This will only add confusion to an already confused consumer base. Surveys show the average consumer believe DT and HD are one in the same. KIM, the average consumer does not read forums such as these.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There is enough confusion without introducing new terms!
ATSC is digital TV ... using AT as an abbreviation could lead to confusion.
There are terms available without creating new ones. 

-TV is plain old TV, NTSC in analog
-LP is the low power version of -TV
-CA is a Class A station, low power but with a protected status

-DT is the new "digital television", ATSC in analog. It can be HD or multicast or both. It can also be a single SD feed.
-LD is the new "low power digital TV" that is being offered as replacement channels (on channel transitions) or companion channels to -LP and -CA stations.

Most HD feeds on -DT stations broadcast a HD feed all day long. During times that HD is not available (including local commercials) they upconvert SD to HD. Regardless of source quality, they are still broadcasting in HD.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

James Long said:


> -LP is the low power version of -TV


And here I thought LP was 33 1/3 :grin: 
Shhh...showin' my age :lol:


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

kdg454, _In 2009, when the FCC mandate ends Analog Transmissions_

Please clear this up for me. I believe the above statement refers of OTA transmissions only and would not include ALL the programs transmitted by satellite or cable companies. That would mean the Food Network, Fox News, Hallmark, etc. would be required to transmit a digital signal. Somehow I find that hard to believe. mmmm, aren't all *E and *D programs already digital on our end?

What's the scoop?


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

jgurley said:


> kdg454, _In 2009, when the FCC mandate ends Analog Transmissions_
> 
> Please clear this up for me. I believe the above statement refers of OTA transmissions only and would not include ALL the programs transmitted by satellite or cable companies. That would mean the Food Network, Fox News, Hallmark, etc. would be required to transmit a digital signal. Somehow I find that hard to believe. mmmm, aren't all *E and *D programs already digital on our end?
> 
> What's the scoop?


Only your local channels will flip to digial. If you have satelite the channels are digital. Confused yet? After 2009 you'lll won't have to do anything, unless you want to. I'm not worrying, unless one of my TVS blows.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Yep. The digital mandate is only for OTA broadcasts. "Cable Networks" can broadcast in analog for all the FCC cares ... cable systems can still use analog on their wires and satellite systems can still output analog from their receivers. The (currently) 2009 deadline is just for OTA moving from NTSC to ATSC.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

jgurley said:


> kdg454, _In 2009, when the FCC mandate ends Analog Transmissions_
> 
> Please clear this up for me. I believe the above statement refers of OTA transmissions only and would not include ALL the programs transmitted by satellite or cable companies. That would mean the Food Network, Fox News, Hallmark, etc. would be required to transmit a digital signal. Somehow I find that hard to believe. mmmm, aren't all *E and *D programs already digital on our end?
> 
> What's the scoop?


Thanks James.
Yes Jg, I took the thread discussion as being specific to broadcast TV.


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## ssmith10pn (Jul 6, 2005)

The way I have my system setup so I know if the broadcast is HD or SD is have the HD in 16:9 and the SD in 4:3. That way the SD isn't stretched which looks like crap in my opinion.


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## John W (Dec 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> Most HD feeds on -DT stations broadcast a HD feed all day long. During times that HD is not available (including local commercials) they upconvert SD to HD. Regardless of source quality, they are still broadcasting in HD.


There have been many instances in our local market where there was a delay, or total screw up, in the station "throwing the hd switch" so that we would be receiving a program or event provided by the network in hd, in hd.So, I don't think the "all day long" thing is happening in Fort Wayne, unless I'm missing something.


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## micklewhite (Jul 22, 2006)

The question was designed to distinguish between digital OTA and HD OTA (a subset of digital) as rebroadcast by DBS. The non-OTA programming ("cable channels") are a different animal in that the are not using the broadcast spectrum. The summary of my understanding is:

Most local stations broadcast OTA in both analog and digital. Any HD programming offered would be on the digital side. E* "locals" are the analog signals rebroadcast by satellite. Now there may be analog-digital conversion (perhaps more than once) by the time the view sees the programming. With the exception of a DLP TV, the viewer is seening a analog presentation, even though the signal arrived in digital format. E* does rebroadcast some OTA digitals and will in due course only be rebroadcasting digitals (since that is all that will be available). Other "cable" channels are partially/totally HD and are made available through special packages. The bottom line is that I was confused by the constant reference to "HD" channels. In fact what is generally meant is the digital signal of OTA broadcasters, which is not 100% HD.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

micklewhite said:


> The question was designed to distinguish between digital OTA and HD OTA (a subset of digital) as rebroadcast by DBS. The non-OTA programming ("cable channels") are a different animal in that the are not using the broadcast spectrum. The summary of my understanding is:
> 
> Most local stations broadcast OTA in both analog and digital. Any HD programming offered would be on the digital side. E* "locals" are the analog signals rebroadcast by satellite. Now there may be analog-digital conversion (perhaps more than once) by the time the view sees the programming. With the exception of a DLP TV, the viewer is seening a analog presentation, even though the signal arrived in digital format. E* does rebroadcast some OTA digitals and will in due course only be rebroadcasting digitals (since that is all that will be available). Other "cable" channels are partially/totally HD and are made available through special packages. The bottom line is that I was confused by the constant reference to "HD" channels. In fact what is generally meant is the digital signal of OTA broadcasters, which is not 100% HD.


Huh


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

The local transmitters do not switch from say 1080i to 480p and back when you see SD content on a station that is HD capable. Instead, the station merely upconverts the SD content to fit their HD output. Locally FOX's -1 channel is always 720p, but the content is often letterboxed because the source is 480, same with NBC. The local news and other SD programs look SD, but they are being broadcast upconverted to 1080i. There is no streching (like TNT does (YUCK!!) just adding the grey/black bars to the sides to fill the page.

It is a semantic thing. The content varies between 480p and 1080i but the broadcast is always 1080i. When the forget to "throw the switch" they are still feeding their SD content (usually also on the analog channel) into the digital transmitter. They just need to switch to the HD content.


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## DP1 (Sep 16, 2002)

John W said:


> There have been many instances in our local market where there was a delay, or total screw up, in the station "throwing the hd switch" so that we would be receiving a program or event provided by the network in hd, in hd.So, I don't think the "all day long" thing is happening in Fort Wayne, unless I'm missing something.


When James said, "Regardless of source quality they are still broadcasting in HD", he meant just in regards to resolution not actual programming.

Most all stations like Network affiliates, say CBS, are sending out a 1920x1080i signal 24/7 regardless of whether they're showing true HD content or not.

"Flipping the switch" is in regards to passing through the true HD content when that type of programing starts at a given time (as opposed to spacing out and continuing to show upconverted prograaming). But whether they flip it or not, the signal being sent out is still 1920x1080i around the clock.

Thats why there has to be the distinction made between resolution and programming. We cant say we're watching HD (programming) just because a station is always broadcasting HD (resolution).

Otherwise, we might as well say that if we buy an in home video processor like the DVDO that takes any old source you put into it and spits it out as an HD resolution to your display, that we're then watching HD.

Be kinda of hard to call viewing an old VHS tape of something, watching "HD".


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## kb7oeb (Jun 16, 2004)

Not all hardware handles resolution changes gracefully, I have a stb that will lock up if the tuned station changes.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Native pass through is an interesting concept. I suppose sets with their own tuners would be more accustomed to a changing input. My first ATSC tuner had a preset output as well (converting whatever it received into one of four formats).

My HD monitor does seem to adjust well when I change the HD output of the 622 to other settings. A brief glitch. When we do get 'native pass through' I expect many people won't like the glitch as the sources change.

Just another "feature" that will be a bug to some. I agree with Mark. This needs to be an OPTIONAL feature.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jgurley said:


> I believe the above statement refers of OTA transmissions only and would not include ALL the programs transmitted by satellite or cable companies. That would mean the Food Network, Fox News, Hallmark, etc. would be required to transmit a digital signal.?


These "nationals" typically don't transmit at all. They "uplink" a digital signal to satellite and have for several years. What cable, satellite or broadband do to deliver them to you is none of their concern.

You are correct in that all content broadcast on channels 2-69 will be required to be digital. This doesn't change your relationship with a cable company nor a satellite distributor as they will likely continue to deliver in the same manner as they are now for a few years. How they receive the signal is not your problem.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> My HD monitor does seem to adjust well when I change the HD output of the 622 to other settings. A brief glitch. When we do get 'native pass through' I expect many people won't like the glitch as the sources change.
> 
> Just another "feature" that will be a bug to some. I agree with Mark. This needs to be an OPTIONAL feature.


There is a brief glitch on my monitor when I change... but it takes no more time than it does to change a channel does... roughly a second or 2 tops... so if the bonus was native passthrough for an extra second while changing channels... I'd go for it!

But I absolutely agree that it should be an additional option and they should keep the settings available now for those who prefer to convert everything to one resolution.


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

James Long said:


> Native pass through is an interesting concept. I suppose sets with their own tuners would be more accustomed to a changing input. My first ATSC tuner had a preset output as well (converting whatever it received into one of four formats).
> 
> My HD monitor does seem to adjust well when I change the HD output of the 622 to other settings. A brief glitch. When we do get 'native pass through' I expect many people won't like the glitch as the sources change.
> 
> Just another "feature" that will be a bug to some. I agree with Mark. This needs to be an OPTIONAL feature.


Couldn't agree more! Different setups call for different solutions - at least the option would allow people to choose what suits them best! :up:


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