# HR20 Site Survey - Finding the Cures



## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

*HR20 Site Survey Results

*Introduction
From February 2 to February 7, 2007, 777 different respondents took the HR20 Site Survey. All HR20 users were allowed to participate but only their final responses are included.

Purpose
1. Quantify HR20 problem severity.
2. Find the most likely causes of problems.
3. Find possible work-arounds to reduce risks.

Analysis
Potential Causes were grouped into the general areas of Installation, Setup, User & Usage, and Programming. In addition, eight general types of problems were included.

Results
Users Surveyed To Date: 777
Replacement HR20s To Date: 177
Total HR20s: 954
*Percentage of HR20s Replaced To Date: 18.6%* *
*Percentage of HR20s Reformatted To Date: 39.2%* *
_* These percentages may be lower than actual because respondents to note up to 4 replacements and 4 reformats._

Factors That Increased Probability of Replacement:
Using Native Mode (On) → 60.4% 
Using HDMI → 43.9% 
30+ Series Links → 41.4% 
Using Autorecords → 32.0% 
Not leaving HR20 Always On → 19.9%
Using a Multi-Switch → 18.5% 
Not All New Cabling → 16.0%

HDMI Increases the Probability of Audio Problems:
Using HDMI Increases the Probability of Audio Problems by 145%

Replacement Analysis: 
% of 1st Replacements not HR20 related → 81.4%
% of 2nd Replacements not HR20 related → 96.6%
% of 3rd Replacements not HR20 related → 99.4%

Maps & Histograms:
Histograms & US Map plots for each question are available in the Survey Results. 
For Histograms, click the ∆ to the far right of the item.
For US Map Plots, click the total response number to the far right of the item. The maps do not seem to show geographic trends.

To the Subscribers: 
There are work-arounds that you can do now to try to reduce your probability of failure. Each involves sacrificing features or utility. No user reported a single replacement if they were taking all of these measures:
- Turn Native Mode Off.
- Use Component Video Output instead of HDMI Output
- Reduce your number of Series Links to Less than 30
- Use Series Links instead Autorecords. 
- Leave your HR20 always ON.

There is no guarantee that these steps will prevent future failures. Regardless, you should know the risks.

To DIRECTV: 
We appreciate the many updates you have already provided and look forward to continuing our very positive relationship.

Currently the HR20 is unable to provide Key Promised Features. The replacement rate on the HR20 is high. But notice that the replacements often do not help. This would indicate that the problems are often not due to the hardware.

For More Information:
Basic summary: HR20 Site Survey - Analysis Summary
Raw data & calculations: HR20 Site Survey Multivariable Analysis 
Source of Survey Questions: Potential Causes of HR20 Problems

Thank you to...
+ brott for developing the survey website. 
+ tibber & hasan for your ideas & insight. 
+ the Creator of DBSTalk, Chris Blount.
+ the moderators: Clint Lamor, Earl Bonovich, Donnie Byrd, & Mike Lang
+ the hundreds of dbstalk.com for your help.

Analysis Technique:
One Dimensional and Multi-Variable Analysis were conducted to determine factors that might contribute to the failure rate. Once a sample size of approximately 90 was attained, survey trends have remained very steady. To verify accuracy, a reverse analysis was conducted as well.

Disclaimer:
_This does not represent the views of DirecTV, dbstalk.com, or any entity or person. All information is presented for discussion only and without warranty or guarantee. While this sampling is large, it does not represent a random sampling of all HR20 users. Actual results may vary._


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Here is the final Site Survey Summary Analysis after 777 respondents. The summary results are on the left. We needed at least 100 to have a good sampling.

For point of comparison, the results from the first 90 respondents is included. From about 60 respondents on, the trends have hardly moved. I expected the results for the first "core" forum users be much much different than for the rest. They were not.

*Bottom Line: *
*Percentage of HR20s Replaced = 18.6%*
*Percentage of HR20s Reformated = 39.2%*

The Multivariable Analysis in the next post isolates individual causes.

Thank you all for taking the survey.

- Craig

_If you do not have Excel, here is the __free Excel Viewer__._
_Results now show the percentage of HR20s. For instance a user with 3 replacements is now reflected as three replaced HR20s. Previously this was incorrectly shown as one site with replacements. R - Thanks for the correction._


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

*Summary of HR20 Multi-Variable Analysis *

Users Surveyed To Date: 777
Replacement HR20s To Date: 177
Total HR20s: 954
Percentage Replaced To Date: 18.6% *
Percentage Reformatted To Date: 39.2% *

_* These percentages are lower than actual because the survey only allowed respondents to note up to 4 replacements and 4 reformats._

Factors that increased Probability of Replacement:
Using Native Mode (On): 60.4%
Using HDMI: 43.9%
30+ Series Links: 41.4%
Using Autorecords: 32.0%
Not leaving HR20 Always On: 19.9%
Using a Multi-Switch: 18.5%
Not All New Cabling: 16.0%

If All Problems Were in the Units, Site Failure Rates Would Go Down With Each Replacement: 
Failure Rate for HR20's =	18.6%	
Expected Failure on 1st Repalcement	3.4%	18.6% of the 18.6% should fail
Expected Failure on 2nd Repalcement	0.6%	18.6% of the 3.4% should fail
Expected Failure on 3rd Repalcement	0.1%	18.6% of the 0.6% should fail

Actual Replacement Failure Rates
Initial Replacements Required	18.6%	
1st Replacement Failure Rate	27.0%	
2nd Replacement Failure Rate	48.5%	
3rd Replacement Failure Rate	37.5%

Replacement Analysis: 
% of 1st Replacements not HR20 related	81.4%	= (18.6% - 3.4%)/18.6% 
% of 2nd Replacements not HR20 related	96.6%	= (18.6% - 0.6%)/18.6% 
% of 3rd Replacements not HR20 related	99.4%	= (18.6% - 0.1%)/18.6%

Please see the attached Excel File for raw data for each respondent, all calculations, and much more analysis.

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Here are 13 Missing Promised Features and the bugs that they cause. Please see the current DirecTV HR20 Manual for details.

Wrong Info Bug 
The HR20 does not always provide accurate repeat/first run & HD info so the right shows can be recorded as promised on p. 47. Other receivers properly decode the information stream from channel 100.

Channels I Receive Bug (CIR Bug)
The HR20 does not "Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package" p. 33. Consequently Search returns programs you cannot watch. The HR20 is able to filter out hundreds of local channels not in the subsciber's local market. So the HR20 can and does correctly filer out some channels.

Guide Bug
Pressing the Guide button not go to the Guide. As the manual states pressing the GUIDE button "displays the Guide" p. iv. & 4.

Priorittizer Bug 
The Prioritizer does not have the abillity to edit "all the programs" per p. 28. The Series Link can only be edited if there are currently programs populated in the Guide that meet the Series Link criteria. For instance if no more First Runs are coming up, the user cannot switch to Repeats or Both.

Favorite Channels Bug
Users can't Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter to Search for "just what you want to watch" p. 31. Searches return programs from all channels, even ones not available to the subscriber.

Keyword Search Bug
Subscribers can't Search "with your desired...keyword" p. 2. Users can't do a keyword search for: "CSI: NY", "Survivor: Fiji Islands" or "Bears @ Colts".

Autorecord Title Bug
Users can not Autorecord by title as promised in the manual on pp. 20 & 31

Caller ID Bugs
Caller ID does not work reliably as promised on page 33 of the manual. Often phones in the subscriber's home show caller ID correctly but the HR20 does not.

Closed Captioning Bugs
Closed Captioning is much better but still prone to positioning and text problems.

Sound Effects
The Sound Effects Option is greyed out and not accessible to users.

Videos Menu Option
The "Videos" menu option under Music & Photos does not work yet.

eSATA Hard Drive
The "consumer installable Hard Drive Expansion Device" explained on Investor Day 2/22/06 Slide 41 is not yet enabled.

DirecTV Video on Demand
DirecTV Video on Demand was originally promised as Broadband Video on Demand - Investor Day 2/22/06 Slide 54, and is not available on the HR20.

Autorecord Bug
Autorecord records channels you don't get, sometimes PPV that you now have to buy instead of the channels you already have in your package. The HR20 may record NY channels you cannot receive instead of programs in the subscribers programming package.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Post this same notice in the Cutting Edge thread....there are people who have migrated and might miss it. We will also need to regularly "bump this message up", until and unless Earl makes it a "Sticky" when he gets back from the Stupor Bowl.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hasan said:


> Post this same notice in the Cutting Edge thread....there are people who have migrated and might miss it. We will also need to regularly "bump this message up", until and unless Earl makes it a "Sticky" when he gets back from the Stupor Bowl.


Don't you mean in a stupor...:lol:


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## oldschoolecw (Jan 25, 2007)

Good job guys


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Don't you mean in a stupor...:lol:


The party's at our house and that's what my wife calls it. I'm the Dip Master and Pizza Chef, the Chili Master is one of the guests.


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

This survey really ought to be a sticky......


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

leww37334 said:


> This survey really ought to be a sticky......


Yep, but we gave Earl the weekend off.....


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

any moderator can sticky it..


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

hasan said:


> Post this same notice in the Cutting Edge thread....there are people who have migrated and might miss it. We will also need to regularly "bump this message up", until and unless Earl makes it a "Sticky" when he gets back from the Stupor Bowl.


Done 

Nice work guys.


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## mgcsooner (Dec 18, 2004)

Hated to mention the few problems I had in the last week because it was on the prior software release o11b. Assuming you are taking this survey weekly it might blend in multiple downloads. Also possibly skewing results would be those on different versions, such as cutting edge. Probably want to identify the version they are on, and whether the data input is for the week (even if you began it on a different version).


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## KitchMD (Aug 27, 2006)

Great job guys!

One thing I was thinking about today, and I'm sure someone else has mentioned it...could some of the problems have to do with the quality of the coax runs in the house? I live in a fairly new house (~3 years old) and I have had very, very few problems (2 RBR in 4 months on 2 machines). Could people having more problems have older, possibly RG-59 coax in their house? It's just a shot in the dark...I know some of the problems have to be software related but maybe signal quality to the HR20 is contributing to it.

Just a thought...


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## hobbes (Oct 12, 2006)

Looks great guys. Thanks for all the hard work in getting this set up.

One question though, for #39: What % free hard drive space do you usually have? (5 - 10 - 15 - 20 - 25+)...

Are the answer ranges broad enough? I know I tend to run somewhere around 75% - 80% space available all the time, and my HR20 has been pretty stable all along (knock wood). I wonder if there could be a space available correlation that could be missed.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

KitchMD said:


> Great job guys!
> 
> One thing I was thinking about today, and I'm sure someone else has mentioned it...could some of the problems have to do with the quality of the coax runs in the house? I live in a fairly new house (~3 years old) and I have had very, very few problems (2 RBR in 4 months on 2 machines). Could people having more problems have older, possibly RG-59 coax in their house? It's just a shot in the dark...I know some of the problems have to be software related but maybe signal quality to the HR20 is contributing to it.
> 
> Just a thought...


Right now all we know is that a full 65% of respondents did not let D* install new cables with their HR20s. See the Summary for yourself.

There are some absolute guarantees with cables:
1. Contact junctions will become ohmic with time (go bad).
2. Some of the problems will turn out to be RG-59, steel cores, crimps, cuts, etc.
3. D* tried to give all of us new cables for *free*. 
4. Raw naked electrons will eventually be falling out on the floor.

I just don't get not allowing D* to install all new cables for free. Use whichever give the best signal strength. Why not let them give you new cables? Free is good.

The correlation data may prove me wrong but how could 65% old cables not be a factor? At 2GHz, effects of old cables can vary with time, temperature, and humidity. You might even see seemingly random errors...

I had a professor contend that anything over a gig is PFM. Pure Magic.

- Craig


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Right now all we know is that a full 65% of respondents did not let D* install new cables with their HR20s. See the Summary for yourself.
> 
> There are some absolute guarantees with cables:
> 1. Contact junctions will become ohmic with time (go bad).
> ...


Who said anything about "old" and not new cables?  I didn't let them install cuz they wouldn't make it look nice, cables all over the outside of the house and black lines just didn't go with my exterior trim. 

They did give me all the brand new cable I needed, I gave them a coke and a fast install which they got paid for. (lots of tuners installed on a movers connection in 20 minutes of their time is something they REALLY like.) 

And I've done enough installs that 3 companies have tried to hire me--but I don't do UT installs in winter...brrrrr!

Cheers,
Tom


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

hobbes said:


> Looks great guys. Thanks for all the hard work in getting this set up.
> 
> One question though, for #39: What % free hard drive space do you usually have? (5 - 10 - 15 - 20 - 25+)...


Good observation.

We can expand it for the next survey. Below 25% is supposed to be where you start to have trouble. The Excel Summary shows that over 75% stay away from that threshold.

A number of questions can be tweaked for the second run now that we have some baseline data to work with.

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

tibber said:


> And I've done enough installs that 3 companies have tried to hire me--but I don't do UT installs in winter...brrrrr!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom, in so many ways, you are a bit of an exception. I am not sure that the other 81 self-installers so far have your years of professional installation experience or tools! 

EDIT: This group is far from average. We know that there are many with the knowledge, skil, and patience to do the job right. My apologies.

- Craig


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

RE: Cables.

They didn't need to install any cables. I already have 4 quad shielded RG6 buried in PVC from dish pole in backyard to my basement. No need to replace those. Plus the fact replacing that would be 1) a big mess and 2) wouldn't be free. I'd just do it myself again.

All runs in my house are also the same RG6 quad shielded cables and properly grounded.

But then I *know* all the cables are fine and I have had very little problems either.

Do note that most of these "installers" (if you want to call them that) will just use whatever cables are there most of the time just to get on to the next job. I'd argue that and installers work is a whole lot worse then mine.

I agree with some of your conclusions but we really can't know for sure without inspecting every install.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

DirecTV didn't install anything, I did. The cabling wasn't new for the HR20, but none of it was older than one year, and half of it was newer than that. It is quad shield copper clad steel, but the runs are short, and I've had no problems at all.

Carl


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## Brantel (Dec 8, 2006)

I'll tell you why I did not get new cables...

The installer refused to put in new cables. I think you will find this to be true lots of times.

But of course my cables were only about 1 year old and I have no RG-59.

@ 2Ghz, the signals flow across the surface of the conductor, so solid copper does little to nothing for you.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

I took the website survey this morning; thanks to Earl for pinning this where it's easy to find.

Regarding cables - mine are a mix. I already had two runds of quad-shielded RG6 running through my crawlspace for the living room (where the HR20 is located), two more for my master bedroom (where I still have one of my old SD Tivos), and single runs to the two other downstairs bedrooms. The upstairs room was pre-wired with a single run of RG6. My HR20 install involved moving the living room TiVo to my elder daughter's room, so an extra run was added from my existing Zinwell WB68 (which had been installed a few months before when I added the kids' receivers), plus new runs from the AT9 to the switch. My signal strengths are usually in the mid-upper 90s all through the house.


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## snewo (Sep 30, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Right now all we know is that a full 65% of respondents did not let D* install new cables with their HR20s. See the Summary for yourself.
> 
> There are some absolute guarantees with cables:
> 1. Contact junctions will become ohmic with time (go bad).
> ...


I didn't want to pay the installer for my non-standard cable install. (Into the attic -> fished to the basement through my chase -> across my basement's drop ceiling -> up behind my gas fireplace to my tv) I just ran the RG6 myself. FWIW, I'm not having any problems with my HR20.


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## Vinny (Sep 2, 2006)

Just took the survey. Thanks to everyone that helped putting it together; I hope it helps.

Just wanted to clarify one answer. For the question that asked; how many resets did you do this week; I answered none; even though when forcing 0x120, there was a reset. I figured you were looking for resets that were needed to get back functions.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I was in a hurry (didn't want to wait to play) so I just bought the quad shield and ran it myself.. took 30 minutes and it works fine...


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Guys, I mean no offense to any of you.

You understood the cables that you needed:
1. RG6 (various ratings are reported of 2.25-3.5 GHz)
2. Quad shield.
3. Solid copper core.

You also knew how to install your own cables properly to not have cuts or kinks.

You also had the right tool to attach the compression connectors.

You spent the extra money to get good connectors.

You sealed your outdoor connections.

You knew how to properly set up a ground block.

You do not have any unnecessary splices.

Your cables are in fact "new" in the past couple of years.

Your knowledge and ability puts you in the top percent of subscribers. On top of that you took the time and money to do it right. Ask a D* installer how many times he has seen a sub do as good a job as yours.

If you did not note your cables as "new" please click on the HR20 Site Survey and change your answer to "new". It should still remember your last answers when you go in.

I would also say that your install was every bit as good as the best D* install.

But we know is that for every one person with the right knowledge, tools, cable, connectors, and groundings, there are others who self installed who did not know or take the time to do all of that correctly. We all have seen brand new construction using RG-59 because it was cheap.

We also have horror stories of lazy and under-trained D* installers not doing the job right.

Regardless of who did the install, was it done right? Are the cable "new"?

Sometimes when you run 4 new hoses, one may not give as good a signal strength as the others. It's not science, it's voodoo. D* owed you (4) new RG-6 runs of up to 125' cables as a part of your HR20 install . That is included for free. If you did not get your free cables installed, you have every right to call Customer Installation Support (CIS) at 1-888-355-7530 and ask them to install them.

Now you can pick the best 4 out of 8. I promise that at least 1 will not be as good as the others.

Again, no offense intended to anyone in this group. You are far from being typical subs.

- Craig


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

none taken.. I just needed to play with my new toy.. no patience


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Vinny said:


> Just wanted to clarify one answer. For the question that asked; how many resets did you do this week; I answered none; even though when forcing 0x120, there was a reset. I figured you were looking for resets that were needed to get back functions.


That is exactly the intent. I just added the word 'forced" to make it clear. If anyone wants to correct any answers, just click here: HR20 Site Survey.

- Craig


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## Drewg5 (Dec 15, 2006)

So far it looks like the HR20 has become by far more stable for a large ammount of people.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Brantel said:


> I'll tell you why I did not get new cables...
> 
> The installer refused to put in new cables. I think you will find this to be true lots of times.
> 
> ...


Brantel,

You are absolutely correct about the the 2Ghz satellite signals. Copper clad steel and solid copper are identical.

But (sorry, you knew there was one)...the solid copper is for the DC current flow to power the 5 LNBs. Now, if your cable runs are short, copper clad will work fine. Its when your runs get long you need either a powered switch or solid copper.

I'm sorry for posting a hijack response, back to our regularly scheduled discussion on Craig and Doug's awesome job.

Cheers, all,
Tom

PS: Craig, I accept that I'm kinda unique, even in this group of highly technical individualists. Many people have even called me a special case... whatever that meant.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

As to who did the installation, I corrected the wording to say Professional instead of D*. Truth be told few actually had D* do their HR20 installion.

If you did the same or better quality work as a professional, please note yourself as a professional grade installation.

Just click here to update your answer: HR20 Site Survey.

Sorry for any confusion.

- Craig


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I've added my mapping routines into the Survey system. You can now see a Geographic Mapping of the data for each question on Craig's Survey. To get to the map, simply click on the Total (column 'T') on the HR20 Site Survey Results Page.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

brott said:


> I've added my mapping routines into the Survey system. You can now see a Geographic Mapping of the data for each question on Craig's Survey. To get to the map, simply click on the Total (column 'T') on the HR20 Site Survey Results Page.


Doug,

The maps are beautiful! Wow. We need more data to help fill in but you can already see trends...

- Craig


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Craig, you blow me away. You have the qualities of a data miner!

Good Work!
Spanky


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## petergaryr (Nov 22, 2006)

Not that this necessarily means anything, but when you look at the map, the greatest concentration of D* users seems to be toward the east of the US.

There are few respondents from the midwest. What's up with that?


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

They all went to Florida with Earl.


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## Mixer (Sep 28, 2006)

The survey is awesome. I hope it helps some people that have been having problems figure out what is wrong. 

If you said Love Tivo there is a chance that is why you arte having problems.

LOL

Great job with this survey.


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## jaybee (Jun 22, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Right now all we know is that a full 65% of respondents did not let D* install new cables with their HR20s. See the Summary for yourself.
> 
> There are some absolute guarantees with cables:
> 1. Contact junctions will become ohmic with time (go bad).
> ...


You might be assuming a bit. My house is only 6 years old and was pre-wired with RG6 Quad cable from multiswitch to the room. D* provided the rest. Since I took pics of the cable installed prior to the sheetrock going up, I know it isn't crimped or cut somewhere.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

jaybee said:


> You might be assuming a bit. My house is only 6 years old and was pre-wired with RG6 Quad cable from multiswitch to the room. D* provided the rest. Since I took pics of the cable installed prior to the sheetrock going up, I know it isn't crimped or cut somewhere.


As long as your connectors are compression fittings and not not crimp-ons or screw-ons, and you do not have steel core, I would count that as new in the survey.

- Craig


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

looking at the survey correlations:

1 the 156% correlation with high series links really jumps out. This suggests disk failiures from high use. Am I mistaken on this? what else could fail?

If I am correct, the disks that the HR20 has may not be up to hgih use of large scale, frequent recordings.

Review of hard drive from CNET-this drive is ok for general computing but not for server (high frequency of disk acess operations)

" Seagate DB35 Series ST3300831SCE - hard drive - 300 GB - SATA-150 
Description: This Seagate DB35 is a 300GB, standard hard disk drive. Compared to other standard hard drives on the market, it is inexpensive at around $110. Its burst transfer rate (which is how fast the drive moves data already in its cache into your computer) is 150 MBps. This is a 7200 rpm drive and has an 8MB cache. 

Pros: Has a 300GB capacity, which is considerably larger than some similarly priced hard drives. In fact, the typical cost of a product with this large a capacity is $325. Also, this hard drive has an 8MB buffer. This is larger than the average hard drive on the market today, but is to be expected for a hard drive of this price. This drive comes with a Serial-ATA controller interface -- one of the fastest technologies for data transfer. 

Cons: None noted, given available product data. 

Suitability: A standard hard drive, suited for general computing. 

Value: Given its inexpensive price, this hard drive has great features for the money. "


This suggests a high quality esata drive with reasonable cooling may be a good option if Direct Tv does not replace failed disks with a server level drive.

Direct TV can opt to decrease the linked and automatic recordings to increase the longevity of the box past the warrenty period. However long term solutions probably require an upgrade of the disk. The esata port is an attractive route to this.



2. The problems with the "required" B band inserts also is striking and suggest voltage problems in the pass through. Is there a multiple cross correlation better the insert, no new cable, and failaure?

3. High T would only make a reliability difference over 1 year or two so the short term non correlation makes lots of sense. Let's try that one in 12-18 months.


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## Scribo-san (Sep 30, 2006)

I was havin a TON of problems under 0x11b ... and just today noticed that I now have 0x120, thanks to a download on Feb. 1

I don't THINK I've missed a recording, and I know I haven't had a BSB or system freeze this week. Last week, my problems reported would have been MUCH higher.

Maybe adding a "In the past month" section? For the truly retentive, is there a way to track through multiple software versions?


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

jmschnur said:


> looking at the survey correlations:
> 
> 1 the 156% correlation with high series links really jumps out. This suggests disk failiures from high use. Am I mistaken on this? what else could fail?
> 
> If I am correct, the disks that the HR20 has may not be up to hgih use of large scale, frequent recordings.


I would not think so. The disk is "recording" (buffering) all the time, remember. The specs on the disc are fine for DVR use, which doesn't require anywhere near what a server does in terms of seeks and so on.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

jmschnur said:


> 1. the 156% correlation with high series links really jumps out. This suggests disk failiures from high use. Am I mistaken on this? what else could fail?


The early analysis was for a much smaller data set. Also to get a larger pool, it should be 30+ recordings instead of 40+.

After 554 respondents...
*Over 30 Series Links increased your probabillity of replacement by 35%. *

_*Using any Autorecords increased your probabillity of replacement by 41%. *_

To islolate out usage, I tested hours in use recording or watching a day.

*Users with a high number of hours in use per day had a 19% lower chance of having to replace an HR20 so far.*

It is not the hours in use recording or watching. It is the number of Series Links and Autorecords.



jmschnur said:


> 2. The problems with the "required" B band inserts also is striking and suggest voltage problems in the pass through. Is there a multiple cross correlation better the insert, no new cable, and failaure?


Now that we have more data, the BBCs are resulting in a very small increase in replacements.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Scribo-san said:


> Maybe adding a "In the past month" section? For the truly retentive, is there a way to track through multiple software versions?


We have debated this. We are getting new release candidates so fast over in the Cutting Edge area, that even a week now encomapses sometimes 3 release candidates. So we are keeping our window small for now.

If you want a notification when you can get new release candidates (beta) check out this thread: HR20 - HighDef DVR

Thank you for taking the Site Surevey!

Craig


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I still find it interesting as far as the maps go. It appears most of the users are in the center and to the East coast. All of Milominderbinder2 "map" type quastions or surveys in the past seem to have the same pattern.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I just re-examined the totals. 
On the question; 16. What size UPS (battery backup) do you use? (none-250-500-750-BIG!) 423 38 66 26 44
Do 423 people have that much faith in their power company? Every time there is a dip in power this thing would surely reset and if it didn't it would really gum up whatever it was doing at the time. It just seems to go hand in hand with the amount of recording events gone bad. I have the same option and software complaints, but I just never see the black screen troubles that are described in many posts.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

armophob said:


> I just re-examined the totals.
> On the question; 16. What size UPS (battery backup) do you use? (none-250-500-750-BIG!) 423 38 66 26  44
> Do 423 people have that much faith in their power company? Every time there is a dip in power this thing would surely reset and if it didn't it would really gum up whatever it was doing at the time. It just seems to go hand in hand with the amount of recording events gone bad. I have the same option and software complaints, but I just never see the black screen troubles that are described in many posts.


Do I have faith in the power company? Yes, but I also know I'll have outages like the hour long one I had today. What did I lose? Not much, I played with my great granddaughter whom we were babysitting today.   

I have way too many "things" to have UPSs all over. I'd be spending too much time testing and replacing batteries each year. Not worth it to me.

my 2 cents.

Cheers, everyone,
Tom


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> The early analysis was for a much smaller data set. Also to get a larger pool, it should be 30+ recordings instead of 40+.
> 
> After 554 respondents...
> *Over 30 Series Links increased your probabillity of replacement by 35%. *
> ...


I've cut down my series links temporarily to see if that helps. My gut feel is that there's something screwy going on with memory use and/or db indexing, and the number of to-do items could well be related to that. My HR20 seems to work fine for about a week at a time, then unwatchable recordings start again. The pattern has been consistent with all recent software versions. Could be random, of course...but there could be something gumming up the works over time, and the number of series links could have something to do with it.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

tibber said:


> Do I have faith in the power company? Yes, but I also know I'll have outages like the hour long one I had today. What did I lose? Not much, I played with my great granddaughter whom we were babysitting today.
> 
> I have way too many "things" to have UPSs all over. I'd be spending too much time testing and replacing batteries each year. Not worth it to me.
> 
> ...


And you have to realize too that that question basically summarizes the "majority" of HR20/D* users out there. Many of us who answered that we do have a UPS are geeks that understand about a loss of power and damages. If I mentioned UPS to my friends, family, or grandparents they'd ask me, "What, do you mean the shipping company?" This poll is great in telling you more of what the majority might be encountering.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

tibber said:


> I have way too many "things" to have UPSs all over. I'd be spending too much time testing and replacing batteries each year. Not worth it to me.
> 
> my 2 cents.
> 
> ...


Tom,

I know what I should have gotten you for Christmas!

It is not just the lost time during an outage. The outage may only be 10 seconds. And it is not the 9 minutes to reboot.

No one would ever unplug their computer to shut it off unless forced to. We all know the damage that can cause to circuits. It can corrupt sectors on a hard drive or worse. The HR20 is just a computer. For $60 you can get a good UPS. For your amount of electronics, you would need to spend more like $90.

The survey results today *EDIT: did not* prove that you are increasing your probability of having to replace your HR20 if you don't practice safe power. *Nuts.*

- Craig


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

> The survey results today will prove that you are increasing your probability of having to replace your HR20 if you don't practice safe power.


Whatever. Some of us (me included) live in an area where we just don't lose power. In 5-1/2 years in my current house I've had MAYBE 5 outages, ever. My house voltage is rock-steady at about 112 volts through thick and thin and has been since I moved in. Thanks to underground utilities and a modern infrastructure in our area of town, brownouts and outages just don't happen.

I use surge protectors in case of nearby lightning strikes but that's it. I've never had a piece of electrical or electronic equipment fail for anything except mechanical reasons like a hard drive bearing wearing out, a fan going bad, or something of that nature.

Not everyone needs a UPS.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I'd need to spend $60 to $90 per room--and while the $$ don't represent very much, it is the time. Yes, I've had tons of electronics over the years (lots of which are in the attic right now).  I know how the smoke is arranged inside them chips and I've lived in houses with great power and on a lake in the boonies with horrible power (it had an awesome view!). And I've been responsible for hundreds of computers before on the job site. I do use surge protectors, but I don't bother with UPSs. Way too much upkeep. Way too little value, IMHO.

Late last night, we had a blip. Lights flickered but the HR20s and TV kept on going. Sure, it might have reduced the life of the Hr20's hard drive by an hour and the life of the rest by 10 seconds. So what? 

Now, I am thinking I might put my network on UPS. I was starting to jones for some dbstalk time...

Cheers,
Tom



Milominderbinder2 said:


> Tom,
> 
> I know what I should have gotten you for Christmas!
> 
> ...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

LameLefty said:


> Not everyone needs a UPS.


Remember, these results are being generated from hard data and look at the big picture. If you feel confident in your situation, then you have nothing to worry about. I, too, do not have a UPS on my DVRs - never have. I have considered it in the past, but because I have good power I have chosen not to get one as well. I may or may not choose to get a UPS based on the results.

For others, who may not have as solid a power source, the results may prove to be an eye opener.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

What is there in an HR20 that can fail other than the hard disk that correlates with autorecord?

Still could be software issue that leads to over use of the hard disk in terms of the seagate disk capabilites.

Joel


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

jmschnur said:


> What is there in an HR20 that can fail other than the hard disk that correlates with autorecord?


Any number of things. Improper/corrupted indexing of the disk contents. Memory leaks or improper allocation. Etc.



jmschnur said:


> Still could be software issue that leads to over use of the hard disk in terms of the seagate disk capabilites.


IMHO, I don't buy the disk is being "overused." It is recording all the time, whether or not it will save the recording as a "show" for later viewing. I've used dozens of different hard drives in DVRs over the years, many with lower specs than the Seagates in the HR20...all performed fine. DVR use is really not very demanding on a hard drive, so long as it can be kept cool enough.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

improper indexing should not lead to a replacement-a reformat would fix that.

What are the "any number of things" that you refer to that are not disk related?

It would be useful if Direct TV would tell us what are the reasons for the returned HR20s. I assume that power surges will explain some of the failures-but the correlation with the autorecord speaks to something else.

Again what other than something associated with the hard disk would be affected by autorecord and not fixed by a complete reset (reformat)?

Joel


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

tibber said:


> Late last night, we had a blip. Lights flickered but the HR20s and TV kept on going. Sure, it might have reduced the life of the Hr20's hard drive by an hour and the life of the rest by 10 seconds. So what?
> 
> Now, I am thinking I might put my network on UPS. I was starting to jones for some dbstalk time...
> 
> ...


I get my share of full blown blackouts. But it is the "flickers" and brownouts that I buy these battery backups for. There are times when I can be sitting peacefully and there are no weather conditions, and all of a sudden all the backups in the house go nuts. I know that all my expensive electronics did not just die one more month.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

I have electonics from the early 1980's doing well.

I have several freinds that need to get replacments every few years.

The difference is surge and ups. We do get lots of noise and ittle surges and drops in our area.

Bottom line: reasonable care usually leads to reasonably long life time for most of the products we use these days.

(I drive a well maintained 1989 BMW as well).


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## westernamerican (Dec 14, 2006)

Golly Gee! Everyone is having problems!! The question remains, when is D* going to give us a box that works?????????


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

westernamerican said:


> Golly Gee! Everyone is having problems!! The question remains, when is D* going to give us a box that works?????????


I've seen early returns on the HR20 Site Survey results. There are some things that you can do now to improve your situation. Craig will be posting a very good results summary. If you haven't taken the HR20 Site Survey yet, now is your chance.


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## westernamerican (Dec 14, 2006)

Doug, I am not real sure, but I don't think that you answered my question too well!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

westernamerican said:


> Doug, I am not real sure, but I don't think that you answered my question too well!


No, I didn't.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

What's with the replacements with HDMI- is that a problem right out of the box like they had with the HR 10s?

It might be interesting to look at the swicthing replacemtns to see if their is a cross correlation with cabling.

A new survey might check on the differecne between a power+switch versus non powered switch.

I still see the HD as a problem with the autorecords etc.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

HDMI allows your TV to literally reach inside your HR20 and into your HR20's backplane. The problems with HDMI may not be an issue with the HR20. It may be poor or incompatible implimenetation by a TV manufacturer.

Component Video avoids these problems. Some report that HDMI is better others report that Component is better. A trained TV Service technician may tell you that poor calibrations may be the difference.

Remember the primary purpose of HDMI is DRM (DIgital Rights Management). HDMI first and foremost is to protect content providers.

In addition, notice that HDMI increases your probabillity of Audio Problems by 145%.

Users have reported excellent results with cables from monoprice.com.Prices start at less than $5 and length go up to 100'.

See the Opening Post for the other HR20 Site Survey Results.

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Here are the five questions to ask if someone is reporting serious problems with their HR20:

1. Do you ever have Native Mode ON.
2. Do you use HDMI?
3. Do you have more than 30 Series Links?
4. Do you use Autorecord?
5. Do you ever turn your HR20 Off (Standby)?

In the HR20 Site Survey - Finding the Cures, no respondent who said NO to these five questions had replaced their HR20.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> HDMI allows your TV to literally reach inside your HR20 and into your HR20's backplane. The problems with HDMI may not be an issue with the HR20. It may be poor or incompatible implimenetation by a TV manufacturer.
> 
> Component Video avoids these problems. Some report that HDMI is better others report that Component is better. A trained TV Service technician may tell you that poor calibrations may be the difference.
> 
> ...


Can you pull out which are the problem tv manufacturers?

I have a Sony and I haven't had a single problem that I could attribute to HDMI. I've had very few problems overall.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Here are the five questions to ask if someone is reporting serious problems with their HR20:
> 
> 1. Do you ever have Native Mode ON.
> 2. Do you use HDMI?
> ...


So if you say yes to all five, does that mean you had to have your box replaced?

I can say yes to 4 of them (no to #4) and my box has never been replaced and it's been very reliable. Occasional lockups and some minor issues (like the screensaver bug), but overall, much more stable that others.


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## Keith Hill (Dec 19, 2006)

I think you're making assumptions with some of your results. Just because a user had HDMI enabled doesn't mean it was the cause or reason for a return. Same goes with native On, etc. There was nothing in the survey to quantify these assumptions. 

Caveat Emptor! I know there has been a lot of effort to try to assist in resolving the issues, but we don't want to start a witch hunt over coincidental anomalies. Thanks to all involved, it is interesting to review the data, but I think we would need to go a lot further in depth as to failure issues before we can start identifying the source of the trouble.

Keith


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

MY TV is on the wall-I was dumb and only put two HDMI cables onthe back of the set no component. So I am stuck with HDMI with my Panny. However-it has worked great so far and I do think digital can be better than component in terms of quality.

It is clear that one could have problems using HDMI for audio. Is there a linkage between HDMI video connections and DD via SPIDF?


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Keith Hill said:


> I think you're making assumptions with some of your results. Just because a user had HDMI enabled doesn't mean it was the cause or reason for a return. Same goes with native On, etc. There was nothing in the survey to quantify these assumptions.
> 
> Caveat Emptor! I know there has been a lot of effort to try to assist in resolving the issues, but we don't want to start a witch hunt over coincidental anomalies. Thanks to all involved, it is interesting to review the data, but I think we would need to go a lot further in depth as to failure issues before we can start identifying the source of the trouble.
> 
> Keith


Yes. Craig has done a great service here, and the results are very interesting. But correlation does not equal causation. The relationships must be interpreted with caution. Unless we know the reasons underlying problems with, say, native mode, the relationship may be a result of a third unknown variable...or an interaction with multiple other variables. Multivariate data analysis is hard!

But given all the caveats...great work Craig, and thanks for all of your efforts on this and the wish list!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Keith Hill said:


> I think you're making assumptions with some of your results. Just because a user had HDMI enabled doesn't mean it was the cause or reason for a return. Same goes with native On, etc. There was nothing in the survey to quantify these assumptions.
> 
> Caveat Emptor! I know there has been a lot of effort to try to assist in resolving the issues, but we don't want to start a witch hunt over coincidental anomalies. Thanks to all involved, it is interesting to review the data, but I think we would need to go a lot further in depth as to failure issues before we can start identifying the source of the trouble.
> 
> Keith


Perhaps, but the data is not lying. The issue is for corrective action in the event you are experiencing problems. Certainly these are not desired corrective actions, but it is something that you can do now to limit your exposure to problems, especially if you are experiencing them on a regular basis.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Yes. Craig has done a great service here, and the results are very interesting. But correlation does not equal causation. The relationships must be interpreted with caution. Unless we know the reasons underlying problems with, say, native mode, the relationship may be a result of a third unknown variable...or an interaction with multiple other variables. Multivariate data analysis is hard!
> 
> But given all the caveats...great work Craig, and thanks for all of your efforts on this and the wish list!


Don't expect this to be the end of the battle. There will be a new HR20 Site Survey available at a later date. Some folks will take these results to heart and may in fact see improvements. The next Site Survey should lead to even better results.

*Craig, Great work on the data analysis!*


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Here are the five questions to ask if someone is reporting serious problems with their HR20:
> 
> 1. Do you ever have Native Mode ON.
> 2. Do you use HDMI?
> ...


I said NO to all five questions and I haven't had any problems other then 3 total lockups in 6 months (knock on wood). But I am starting to push 30 series links. I might go over pretty soon.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

brott said:


> Don't expect this to be the end of the battle. There will be a new HR20 Site Survey available at a later date. Some folks will take this data to heart and may in fact see improvements. The next Site Survey should lead to even better results.


Oh certainly I wasn't implying it was the end of the battle. The data is interesting, and definitely provides some clues as to problem factors. Hopefully the D* folks will use this data in their development.

As an experienced data analyst, I was only saying that caution needs to be used in interpreting correlational relationships...it is natural and easy to leap to assumptions about causality that may not be warranted.

Like every journal article ends..."further research is necessary."


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Like every journal article ends..."further research is necessary."


 .. Yes, CYA :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Results*
*Users Surveyed To Date: 777
Replacement HR20s To Date: 177
Total HR20s: 954
Percentage of HR20s Replaced To Date: 18.6% *
Percentage of HR20s Reformatted To Date: 39.2% **
* These percentages may be lower than actual because respondents to note up to 4 replacements and 4 reformats.
Those 2 key footnoted variables render the data inconclusive.

There could be certain locations that have location-specific issues (power quality or power surges, for example) that could lead to multi-replacements. This distorts the overall % of total user numbers considerably. In addition, the reformats may have been done by user choice, as opposed to necessity (other solutions may have avoided a reformat actually being needed).

The one thing I learned a long time ago is numbers can say alot of different things, depending on how the information is presented and how it is interpreted. I'm not saying anything negative about the survey or its intent, just that how the information is analyzed is subject to scrutiny and interpretation.

Another example...I have 2 HR20's without virtually any problems, yet I only voted once.

I think this information is interesting, but not sure it really diagnoses anything definitive as of yet.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Here are 13 Missing Promised Features and the bugs that they cause.


I have a question. Has DirecTV been asked to provide any kind of official position on these bugs?

I presume they would agree these are bugs and/or broken, nonfunctional features. Do they not have some liability to provide features that are advertised? Or do they have some kind of official policy such as "certain features outlined in the manual may not be present in the unit at the present time, and may be enabled at a future date"?

Just curious. If in fact there are 13 advertised features that DirecTV is not providing, then they have defrauded customers and certainly every person who has purchased an HR20 and been compelled to sign a service contract is entitled to a full equipment refund and release to the contract. I would also think DirecTV should be easily subject to a class-action lawsuit in the event that these 13 advertised features are demonstrably not present.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> So if you say yes to all five, does that mean you had to have your box replaced?
> 
> I can say yes to 4 of them (no to #4) and my box has never been replaced and it's been very reliable. Occasional lockups and some minor issues (like the screensaver bug), but overall, much more stable that others.


No these are risk factors like the risk factors for cancer. Some people have all of the risk factors and never are diagnosed with cancer. A doctor would say to reduce as many of the risks as you can.

Why take the risk unless you have to?

By the way, after we had completed the survey analysis, I remembered this post from 2 months ago:

Spoilers

We had no survey data to work from but we had heard it oftern enough: HDMI, BBC, Native, & Autorecord. Of the big 5, the only one we were debating was Standby. My theories were wrong about Standby...

Even 2 months ago we knew. We just didn't have a database with 36,500 entries to prove it.

- Craig


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Mr.72 said:


> Just curious. If in fact there are 13 advertised features that DirecTV is not providing, then they have defrauded customers and certainly every person who has purchased an HR20 and been compelled to sign a service contract is entitled to a full equipment refund and release to the contract. I would also think DirecTV should be easily subject to a class-action lawsuit in the event that these 13 advertised features are demonstrably not present.


Truth is, some of these 13 items are picking nits with regards to promises ... At least some of them could be eliminated as "a promise" by calling it a documentation error. Besides DirecTV is going above and beyond in trying to make a released product reach these goals as quickly as possible. How is that NOT attempting to remedy thr problem?


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Can you pull out which are the problem tv manufacturers?
> 
> I have a Sony and I haven't had a single problem that I could attribute to HDMI. I've had very few problems overall.


Matt,

I ran it for each of the three brands and there was no correlation.

You can see for yourself pretty quickly though. I included filters so that you can look through all of the permutations.

Click on this link: HR20 Site Survey Multivariable Analysis and open the Excel file.

Click the User Details tab at the bottom. Now you are looking at the raw data for all 777 respondents.

To see just users with Sony's, click the drop down arrow at cell O9 and choose "2" (for Sony). Look at the red boxes in AM and AN for Replacements and Reformats.

How about for Sony's using HDMI?

Add a filter for HDMI: click the drop-down arrow in cell N9 and "1". Look at how much more red you have. HDMI is the issue, not Sony's.

To take off all of the filters, in the top menu, click Data, Filters, Show All.

To see the reverse trends, try looking at users with more than 1 replacement: click the drop-down arrow in cell AM9, and click custom, "is greater than", "1", OK.

Have fun!


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Mr.72 said:


> I have a question. Has DirecTV been asked to provide any kind of official position on these bugs?


The current manual link that I give is the third manual update. If they read the forum they must be very aware of these 13. I wanted it documented in my file that they knew of these missing feautres and have sent them emails as the list has expanded.

They know about these points and have since released updated manuals without correction.

There is one more that I did not list:

p. 2 _You can even record up to three shows at once._

p. 6 _Use to connect the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR to a second LNB on the satellite dish antenna, giving you the ability to watch and record up to three programs at
once (two from the satellite, and one from the Off -Air In)._

p19 _You can record up to three programs at once (two satellite and one from an off-air antenna)._


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> They know about these points and have since released updated manuals without correction.


Their arrogance in this area is just amazing. Just goes to show what happens to companies when there is a lack of any real competition.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Mr.72 said:


> Their arrogance in this area is just amazing. Just goes to show what happens to companies when there is a lack of any real competition.


D* certainly has its flaws and missteps...but I don't understand the "lack of competition" part of your statement.

Even in very rural areas, you've got Dish as an alternative. Almost everyone has cable available. In some areas such as my own, you can add FIOS or other fiber-based system.


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## Robert L (Dec 13, 2005)

While this survey is interesting, unless it actually helps Directv to solve problems with this extremely buggy box, that's about all it is, interesting. Like I stated in the 12a issue thread, I've had this thing 6 days, would be considered a light user and its needed 3 RBR'S, plus a freeze up that did correct itself after 4-5 minutes. I've never had a DVR to need that in such a short time and I've had them since they first came out and also used the SA8300HD cable box. 

I have no idea what the point is when the HR10 is compared by quoting replacements from HD failure or HDMI board problems. This HR20 goes so far pass that with issues it's not amusing at all.

Sure I knew all about it before I purchased, read lots about it, so I knew what could happen. BUT this all Directv is offering so its still their problem it don't work, not mine by choosing to buy it. 

I can't even record OTA 720P and watch while its recording without it causing video break ups and audio drop outs, if I use any trick play. How weird and of course I'm going to use trick play, thats the point of a dvr.... Whats up with that anyway, did they cut pennies so close the hardware can't handle it? 

I grew up in a family that's in the consumer electronics business, especially repair for many companies. While I never really got that involved with repair, I can service lots of electronics at the component level if I have a schematic, if I wanted too. I also know how many common issues there are that most people never know about. 

Manufacturers rarely admit to defects to anyone but service centers and most times that's only as a service memo. They never even bother with that on lots of things. So when I hear of any device that has a certain problem from more then 3 or 4 people, then I know its some kind of defect and not caused by anything else. 

Of course a DVR is very different than say a DLP PJ or rear projection tv, but the fact is Directv had a delayed release on the HR20 and it was still not ready. 

Sure it works, I'm not saying that, but everyone reading on the forums knows its not dependable. I really don't know what people mean saying they don't have issues unless maybe they only watch recorded shows and rarely use it for anything else. I also realize all too well how most people have no idea how to run electronics, but that don't mean they caused the HR20 to freeze up or have a black screen. 

I don't have the 5lnb dish and Mpeg 4 so that isn't affecting my HR20 at all, and there certainly isn't anything wrong with my cables or multi-switch. The only time I ever call Directv is when I want to activate something. I know some of their Techs so I'm not interested in anything like that. 

I'm not a TIVO lover but the HR10 simply don't have the crazy issues the HR20 does. I can live with the GUI on it and I don't have a problem changing. I waited until now to get the box Directv wanted to build and it's still had more issues in 6 days than I've had in the last year with my other dvr's. 

One of the things I really can't handle, is the trick play causing corruption in the future of whatever is being recorded. I had to stop watching lost at the 30 minute point and go to the HR10. Later I went back and watched the last 30 minutes of lost on the hr20 and it was fine, because I stopped using FF or slip to get past commericals. I don't have much use for something like that, and if the box cannot handle OTA then they screwed up again. 

I can handle a reset ever so often, thats ok, but not every other day. It would help if they didn't dump the guide data. Maybe thats another cost issue but I wonder why they cannot write it to the drive. 

It hasn't missed a recording but its only been 6 days, so I'll see how that goes I guess. Overall though this thing is just buggy as heck and it shouldn't be so sensitive that people are looking for ever little thing that might cause it. When they decided to do it in house, then they should have made sure they could do it right. I can somewhat understand how Directv didn't want more and more Directivo's out there and then almost become depended on Tivo. 

But I think that decision was made more about improving profits, like corporations do than anything else. I'm not sure how its work out so far for them though. 

I need 3 more but I can't see doing that for now, especially since I have to pay for the right to lease something that don't work so hot. Cable works well where I am but I hate that box totally, even if does work quite well, I hate the GUI on it. FIOS has internet but not video so I can't move to them. I considered Dish with the free 622 but decided I didn't want to deal with that for now. 

I don't mind paying for the HR20, but only if it works better. I've spend a lot on their dvr's and and receivers over the last 10 years. I'm disappointed I'm having issues like this so fast and knowing they might not get totally corrected.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Robert,

There are a few key points in the results that you can refer to. These are items that you, as a subscriber, can change now.

To the Subscribers: 
There are work-arounds that you can do now to try to reduce your probability of failure. Each involves sacrificing features or utility. No user reported a single replacement if they were taking all of these measures:
- Turn Native Mode Off.
- Use Component Video Output instead of HDMI Output
- Reduce your number of Series Links to Less than 30
- Use Series Links instead Autorecords. 
- Leave your HR20 always ON.

Hopefully these results will allow DirecTV to narrow down their efforts to the areas that are causing the greatest number of problems.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Robert L said:


> While this survey is interesting, unless it actually helps Directv to solve problems with this extremely buggy box, that's about all it is, interesting. Like I stated in the 12a issue thread, I've had this thing 6 days, would be considered a light user and its needed 3 RBR'S, plus a freeze up that did correct itself after 4-5 minutes. I've never had a DVR to need that in such a short time and I've had them since they first came out and also used the SA8300HD cable box.
> 
> I have no idea what the point is when the HR10 is compared by quoting replacements from HD failure or HDMI board problems. This HR20 goes so far pass that with issues it's not amusing at all.
> 
> ...


Completely agree, always have. Some people feel it "working" is right around the corner (with all the "CE" downloads of late). But, even if it happens, that's only in terms of reliability/stability, not all the features listed on the survey that are in the manual but not turned on/working yet. I got mine in mid-September, and I still have little faith in it as a main DVR. I'm far from alone. Six days, six months....seems like it matters little. Either you get "lucky" or you don't with the HR20.

Sad state of affairs. At this point, the bar is so low, people with HR20 problems just want stable, reliable recording and playback. Bells and whistles aren't even part of the equation.


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## kram (Sep 3, 2006)

brott said:


> To the Subscribers:
> There are work-arounds that you can do now to try to reduce your probability of failure. Each involves sacrificing features or utility. No user reported a single replacement if they were taking all of these measures:
> - Turn Native Mode Off.
> - Use Component Video Output instead of HDMI Output
> ...


We should *not *have to "sacrifice features" to "reduce probability of failure"! This is just ludicrous. It seems like it's considered a privilege use this system. I've had this box for almost five (5) months, and I pay D* big bucks for the service (rates are increasing on 3/1, by the way). And as a paying D* customer, it is my *right* to get advertised features and services in a timely and reliable manner. However, this has not always been the case.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I have not experienced the multitude of problems that others have, nor have I had to replace my HR20 (knock on wood). But in the week since getting the 0x120 update, I have seen a lot of the problems that others have been reporting. Thus far, however, I have been very, very patient. I have tried my best not to get all bent out of shape when a program fails to record; when I get frequent BSDs and have to do RBRs; when I lose audio; when I watch local HD programs in jerky 8MM; and when I FF through commercials in a recorded program and then have to RW and FF continually in order to return to the place where I left off.

I know that D* has been trying very hard to work out all the bugs. But just how much longer will it take them -- and how much longer will customers be willing to wait??


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

kram said:


> We should *not *have to "sacrifice features" to "reduce probability of failure"! This is just ludicrous. You're treating this situation as if it were a privilege to to use this system.


Seems like your wrath is misplaced with the "you're treating..." comment. That's unfair to the poster.

I don't think that anyone disagrees with your point about sacrificing features. I certainly don't.

But if doing (or not doing) certain things will reduce the probability of problems -- while we wait for D* to improve things -- then it might be prudent to at least consider them.


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## kram (Sep 3, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Seems like your wrath is misplaced with the "you're treating..." comment. That's unfair to the poster.
> 
> I don't think that anyone disagrees with your point about sacrificing features. I certainly don't.
> 
> But if doing (or not doing) certain things will reduce the probability of problems -- while we wait for D* to improve things -- then it might be prudent to at least consider them.


It wasn't my intention to criticize the poster. I'll edit my original post. Thanks.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

kram said:


> We should *not *have to "sacrifice features" to "reduce probability of failure"! This is just ludicrous. It seems like it's considered a privilege use this system. I've had this box for almost five (5) months, and I pay D* big bucks for the service (rates are increasing on 3/1, by the way). And as a paying D* customer, it is my *right* to get advertised features and services in a timely and reliable manner. However, this has not always been the case.
> 
> I'm one of the lucky ones. I have not experienced the multitude of problems that others have, nor have I had to replace my HR20 (knock on wood). But in the week since getting the 0x120 update, I have seen a lot of the problems that others have been reporting. Thus far, however, I have been very, very patient. I have tried my best not to get all bent out of shape when a program fails to record; when I get frequent BSDs and have to do RBRs; when I lose audio; when I watch local HD programs in jerky 8MM; and when I FF through commercials in a recorded program and then have to RW and FF continually in order to return to the place where I left off.
> 
> I know that D* has been trying very hard to work out all the bugs. But just how much longer will it take them -- and how much longer will customers be willing to wait??


I'm happy with the service and with the two HR20s that I have, so in my case, "till the cows come home" would be an appropriate response to your question.

All the data is showing is something that YOU can do for yourself. If you are not having problems, then there's probably no need to go to extremes. The only time that I have problems are on my HDMI connected HR20. That system is notorious for having poor HDMI connectivity on occasion. I actually correct the problem by removing the HDMI connector from the back of the HR20, waiting 3-5 seconds and then plugging it back in. That has always, 100% of the time solved my HDMI problem. Now, if I would listen to the 5 suggestions and switch to Component, I'm certain that my problem would simply disappear. Since I don't have enough ports on my TV, I'm happy with my current solution.

It's clear that you are not happy with DirecTV. I'm just a guy passing on information obtained from a Site Survey of other guys just like me. I, too, pay big $ to DirecTV and I too have had my systems for nearly 5 months (9/27/06). It sounds like your beef is with DirecTV. These are suggestions to get around the problems that we are seeing. I'd like to see you happy with your service and this is one way of attacking the problem even if it is not the best way.


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## oenophile (Dec 1, 2006)

One thing I'm unclear on in the Survey and in general: When folks say that HDMI increases the chances of Audio issues, does that mean:
a) if your speakers are hooked up via HDMI (either via the TV to the TV speakers or via a home theater receive that supports HDMI), you are more likely to have audio problems;
b) even if you use the PCM/digital output for audio on the HR20, and use the HDMI output for video only, you will still have more audio problems if you use the HDMI output for video only than you would if you used component only;
c) all of the above; or
d) something else?

(Does that make sense?)


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Craig: These risk factors that increase your chance of big problems:

Using Native Mode (On): 60.4% 
I see that this could increase the work load because of every channels change could require the box to "adapt" to the new resolution.

Using HDMI: 43.9%
Would also increase workload as it needs to maintain the "hand shake" with the display.

30+ Series Links: 41.4%
While I'm under this @ 25, it doesn't seem out of "normal use".

Using Autorecords: 32.0%
What's this a one time series link?

Not leaving HR20 Always On: 19.9%
I'm not sure this is meaningful.

Craig, don't take me wrong. You have done some great work and please know that we all appreciate your efforts.

What I see from this is: I should buy a 3/4 ton truck, but never haul more than 2 grocery bags with it for it to work.
I don't think these demands are that demanding from the DVR.
Now if I bought a Pinto & drove it like a Ferrari, I could understand "over taxing" it. These numbers just [to me] show the more you use the DVR, the more chances you will find the weakness in the software/firmware that still needs to be addressed.
One person's opinion, FWIW.
Keep up the good work, please  
Geoff


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Using Autorecords: 32.0%
> What's this a one time series link?
> 
> Not leaving HR20 Always On: 19.9%
> ...


Geoff,

Autorecords are similar to Tivos wishlists. You can specify attributes about a something you wish to be recorded: anything that covers Packers, or all copies of CSI, regardless of channel, for instance.

Your analogy is very similar to one that Craig and I actually discussed.  Buying a 3/4 ton truck and until the first service call, being able to only carry 1/2 ton. Craig, Doug, and I, in our analysis are not saying, in any way, shape, or form, that reducing the feature usage of the HR20 is acceptable long-term. But it can be a short-term workaround.

In fact, we are telling DIRECTV that here is where they can concentrate extra resources to perhaps find many of the most catastrophic defects.

Viewed from the standpoints of: 1) this is what we can do to temporarily workaround many problems, and 2) here is where DIRECTV might want to start digging deeper; the survey is a big win-win for everyone.

Cheers,
Tom


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Tom,
Another day of learning something.
Thanks...
Geoff


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'll say it again, thanks to all you guys for getting this moving. I'd like to see a new survey in June with the results from Feb-June only. PM me if you need some help this time, I'm happy to pitch in where I can!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> I'll say it again, thanks to all you guys for getting this moving. I'd like to see a new survey in June with the results from Feb-June only. PM me if you need some help this time, I'm happy to pitch in where I can!


It is likely a second Site Survey will appear before the June time frame.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

brott said:


> It is likely a second Site Survey will appear before the June time frame.


I'll be expecting your PM then-


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## nick1817 (Feb 12, 2007)

I'd be curious, just for gits and shiggles, to see the same numbers with who got a receiver directly from Direct TV and who got theirs from a local Electronics place


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## ronrico51 (Feb 13, 2007)

petergaryr said:


> Not that this necessarily means anything, but when you look at the map, the greatest concentration of D* users seems to be toward the east of the US.
> 
> There are few respondents from the midwest. What's up with that?


People in the midwest are more satisfied with their cable providers, perhaps. In my small upper midwest town, the large majority of people have cable, though more are getting D*. Your guess is as good as mine.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Craig, 
I don't know if this is new but: for the next time could/should we break down the 5LNB dish into the AT9 & AU9?


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I can't remember if you asked if you had MPEG-4 channels available. I would love to see what the correlation between those with MPEG-4 channels available and those with serious problems. Just wondering......

PS I have no MPEG-4 channels available (that I know of) and have never had a problem . Sample of 1


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

How many people who have an HR20 have wives? I'd say there's a high correlation between having a wife and having a HR20 with problems. Clearly something D* needs to look into. 

How many people who have a problem HR20 also have an HR10? Perhaps the Tivo people, smarting over being "dumped" by D*, are sending bad mojo through the phone line or via IR blaster that's messing up the HR20?


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

jcricket said:


> How many people who have an HR20 have wives? I'd say there's a high correlation between having a wife and having a HR20 with problems. Clearly something D* needs to look into.
> 
> How many people who have a problem HR20 also have an HR10? Perhaps the Tivo people, smarting over being "dumped" by D*, are sending bad mojo through the phone line or via IR blaster that's messing up the HR20?


If you found that only people with a wife and an HR-20 had problems AND people without an HR-20 and don't have a wife, don't have problems then you would have a correlation. Perhaps a course in basic statistics might be useful.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=80207


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

Do you guys think that using the usb port to power fans can hurt the functioning of the HR 20?

J


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

jmschnur said:


> Do you guys think that using the usb port to power fans can hurt the functioning of the HR 20?
> 
> J


I've been doing it for almost two months and haven't seen a problem yet. your mileage may vary...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jmschnur said:


> Do you guys think that using the usb port to power fans can hurt the functioning of the HR 20?
> 
> J


That question is going to be on the next Survey. My gut feeling is that it does NOT play a part, but We'll find out.


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## keltoid (Feb 20, 2007)

I would've liked to have done this survey. What a lot of problems we have had.

I do have a suspicion though, and perhaps someone can tell me if I may be right, or I can look around this board for the answer when I get a chance, but..

is the problem possibly the HDMI cord/connection format? And if so, is it that the software downloaded does not adequately work with that format?

Thanks.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

1. I would expect that lot's of use of the hard disk my play a role -so anything that uses the hard disk a lot should be asked about.
2. Interactive use of the HR20 may play a role. HDMI audio is one place that happens, the game channel and active button lead to this as well. So it might be interesting to see if peopel do this and if it leads to anything.
3. Related to #2 -Is there any relationship between called ID working and problems in other functions. Caller ID does not work for me and I have had relatively few probelm.


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## dsmith35124 (Feb 3, 2007)

Brantel said:


> I'll tell you why I did not get new cables...
> 
> The installer refused to put in new cables. I think you will find this to be true lots of times.
> 
> ...


The reason that solid copper is specified is that steel drops too much voltage in the DC power for the 5 LNBs. It has nothing to do with the 2 GHz BW of the cables.


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## alexcohen (Sep 27, 2006)

No wife & I used both HDMI & component cables & I still had problems.


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