# One reason Dish PVRs are better than Tivo



## dbronstein

Not only does Tivo track what you watch, it also tracks when you skip commercials.

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%7E122%7E1452929,00.html?search=filter


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## Bill R

To *me* that is something that I think is good. I *want* some one to pay attenion to what I like and dislike. Maybe if programmers actually knew what we were watching thay would get rid of some of the junk that is on. The current rating services just don't do an accurate job.


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## Karl Foster

...and once again, you can opt out of tracking by simply calling them and requesting it. Perhaps tracking which commercials and programs get watched and which ones FF'd through, programming can actually improve. 

The tracking information is collected at the ZIP Code level, not at the individual user level. They don't forward the informatin to the FBI, or your minister. 

Is that the best you've got on how Dish PVR's are better? 

I can give you one BIG reason Directv PVR's (UTV and D*Tivo) are better, and that is name-based recording...


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## Randy_B

I also suspect that IF this really proves to be a decent source of additional revenue, E* will look at adding it. This is just the bowwave of this issue.


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## ibglowin

How about NO MONTHLY FEE !!!!


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## bills976

ibglowin said:


> How about NO MONTHLY FEE !!!!


True. This is the major advantage of the Dish PVRs, though if you subscribe to TC Platnium (or whatever they call it now), your fee is waived. The fee is only charged once as well, as opposed to $4.99 * X for Tivo households with X Tivo receivers.


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## Jacob S

Each one has their own benefits. I am still waiting for a PVR that has both of these benefits at an affordable price. A computer pvr is the only thing I can think of, but I wonder what the reliability of those are and how they compare to Dish and Direct PVR's.


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## Cyclone

Can a Tivo work with Dish Network like it would with OTA or Cable? I know that DirectTV has a Tivo model build in. But will an standard Tivo work with Dish?


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## bills976

Cyclone said:


> Can a Tivo work with Dish Network like it would with OTA or Cable? I know that DirectTV has a Tivo model build in. But will an standard Tivo work with Dish?


Yes, it would. However, there would be no dual-tuner functuality, and the monthly fee would go up to $11.99 or $12.99 (don't remember which). Unless you have your heart set on Tivo/Dish, it's best to stick with Dish PVRs or switch to Directv and get a Tivo.


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## AllieVi

karl_f said:


> ...and once again, you can opt out of tracking by simply calling them and requesting it....


Call me a skeptic, but I'm not reassured by that claim. As long as the receiver is making a call to an 800-number, the data can be associated with the user. Those who don't agree that the world has a right to know their viewing habits have reason to be concerned.


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## dbronstein

karl_f said:


> ...and once again, you can opt out of tracking by simply calling them and requesting it. Perhaps tracking which commercials and programs get watched and which ones FF'd through, programming can actually improve.
> 
> The tracking information is collected at the ZIP Code level, not at the individual user level. They don't forward the informatin to the FBI, or your minister.
> 
> Is that the best you've got on how Dish PVR's are better?
> 
> I can give you one BIG reason Directv PVR's (UTV and D*Tivo) are better, and that is name-based recording...


They can say they only use aggregate data all they want, but they've got the individual data.

And I really don't think Dish PVRs are better than Tivo overall, and I wasn't trying to make that case. I'm just pointing out one thing that I prefer about Dish PVRs.

Dennis


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## Inaba

Actually, the monthly fee (unless you are talking about DirecTIVO) is virtually non-existant. For *almost* the same price as the 721, you can get a Tivo2 with Lifetime subscription, negating the monthly fee.


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## Jacob S

But does the Tivo2 have a dual tuner and 90 hours of record time? At least you can upgrade the hard drives. Has anyone done a mod to allow a Tivo to run off of a computer's hard drive with a set of wires or something running to a computer of your choice? I hope this question is allowed to be asked.


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## Inaba

It has 80 hours... but as you said, it can be upgraded. Only DirecTIVO has a dual tuner (and no lifetime subscription) .


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## bills976

Inaba said:


> Actually, the monthly fee (unless you are talking about DirecTIVO) is virtually non-existant. For *almost* the same price as the 721, you can get a Tivo2 with Lifetime subscription, negating the monthly fee.


No more lifetime membership. Since Directv has taken over billing, technical support, and whatnot from Tivo, fees have been lowered, but no more lifetime. Of course those who purchased it beforehand still get their lifetime service.



Jacob S said:


> But does the Tivo2 have a dual tuner and 90 hours of record time? At least you can upgrade the hard drives. Has anyone done a mod to allow a Tivo to run off of a computer's hard drive with a set of wires or something running to a computer of your choice? I hope this question is allowed to be asked.


On a Series II dual tuner Directivo with upgraded drives, I believe it is possible to get 300+ hours of record time. Don't hold me to that figure, though... it could be around 250 or so.

Tivo uses a Linux OS as its base. In fact, someone over at Tivocommunity found a way to actually get access to the shell, though nothing useful came of it. I don't think anyone has performed such a mod... sounds way complicated.


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## Inaba

> No more lifetime membership. Since Directv has taken over billing, technical support, and whatnot from Tivo, fees have been lowered, but no more lifetime. Of course those who purchased it beforehand still get their lifetime service.


Of course you can still get lifetime membership. DirecTV hasn't taken over TIVO, they took over DirecTIVO. TIVO is still it's own company, and they still offer a lifetime membership for TIVO's. DirecTIVO is the only thing that doesn't have a lifetime membership.



> Tivo uses a Linux OS as its base. In fact, someone over at Tivocommunity found a way to actually get access to the shell, though nothing useful came of it. I don't think anyone has performed such a mod... sounds way complicated.


There is plenty of hacking (good and bad) going on with TIVO. Shell access is far, far from useless; plenty of people have found something "useful" to do with it.


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## bills976

Inaba said:


> Of course you can still get lifetime membership. DirecTV hasn't taken over TIVO, they took over DirecTIVO. TIVO is still it's own company, and they still offer a lifetime membership for TIVO's. DirecTIVO is the only thing that doesn't have a lifetime membership.


My apologies, didn't see the notation in parentheses.


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## Jacob S

I dont see how it would be a hard mod to make the wires to the Tivo hard drive be routed to a computer hard drive instead, or is there more to it than that?


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## spanishannouncetable

ibglowin said:


> How about NO MONTHLY FEE !!!!


Yes, the old "no monthly fee" nonsense rears its ugly head again 

Let's examine this once more, shall we ?

A 721 w/a 301 second receiver, installed to a new customer goes for $449 at Dish Depot -

http://www.dishdepot.com/Cart/description.php?II=492654&UID=2003070117191412.145.85.203

A HDVR2 w/a second Hughes receiver, installed to a new customer costs $99 at Expert Satellite -

http://www.expertsatellite.com/catalog/ , ad is on the right of the page

At $4.99 a month for the DVR charge, the HDVR2/2nd STB would be in use 70 MONTHS, or nearly 6 YEARS before it finally cost as much as the 721/301 combo. If anyone plans on using a 721 that long before they can count the pennies they've saved, they're welcome to them - they earned 'em, I guess.

For existing subs looking to upgrade, a 721 receiver alone goes for $530 -

http://www.dishdepot.com/Cart/description.php?II=492400&UID=2003070117191412.145.85.203

Meanwhile, a HDVR2 is available straight from Directv for $199, and it includes a free install w/multiswitch or new dish upgrade. Just call Directv.

The $330 difference in this case covers the use of the HDVR2 for 5 1/2 years.

Get 2 units and the difference becomes even more pronounced -
2 721's = $1060
2 HDVR2's = $398
That $662 difference would cover 11 YEARS of DVR service for BOTH HDVR2's. I doubt that even someone who paid over a GRAND for 2 721's would still have them in service after 11 years.

I've said it before, I'll keep saying it - the "monthly fee" argument against the DirecTiVo simply doesn't hold water. It never has, and I doubt Echostar will ever cut the price of their homebrewed technology to make their "no monthly fee" PVR's worthwhile vs the DirecTiVo.


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## bills976

Jacob S said:


> I dont see how it would be a hard mod to make the wires to the Tivo hard drive be routed to a computer hard drive instead, or is there more to it than that?


There's a bit more to it than that, though we'd then be getting into the particulars of video extraction if we discussed it, which is taboo around here. I thought you were talking about a setup which would allow the hard drive to be continuously connected to a computer, and the Tivo, which is much more difficult if not impossible. Though the ambitious I'm sure will find a way to do it.


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## Danbo

You forgot to mention that, if the customer has "Total Choice Premier" package for DirecTV, there is NO fee for Tivo. That's the package I've always had before switching to Dish for the 721.


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## Jacob S

I knew about there not being a charge for customers with the Total Choice Premier package having no pvr fee but I figure most do not order that package.

I was figuring that the Tivo could use a hard drive from one computer to another by disconnecting a wire from the one and connecting one up to another, either that or having it remain at one computer. By the time one does that one might as well operate the whole pvr off of the computer with the software and all I figure.

The savings adds up more over a period of time if you have a Tivo Standalone vs. a DirecTivo. If the period of time is too many years, like 6 years for example, by that time some would upgrade to another pvr or whatever technology is out by then anyways so by the time you did make your money back you are not getting anywhere. It depends on the situation.


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## dswallow

Jacob S said:


> I knew about there not being a charge for customers with the Total Choice Premier package having no pvr fee but I figure most do not order that package.


 Off the top of my head, the 8 people I can think of I see regularly who have DirecTV all have Total Choice Premier... I'm not sure I've ever known anyone who subscribed to less, except those I'm aware of online in forums but don't otherwise know personally.


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## Unthinkable

karl_f said:


> I can give you one BIG reason Directv PVR's (UTV and D*Tivo) are better, and that is name-based recording...


Overrated. Honestly, how hard is it for a Dish user to go into the program guide from time to time to select an event to record at whatever interval they want? How much hand holding do we need here to record programs? I don't see that as a big reason why its better. Aavid tv watchers will be in the guide every night at prime time or whenever they get the chance to irregardless of what they have setup to record and will be apt to catch in advance the few rare occasions when their favorite programs might go over a bit. Sports events lasting longer then their scheduled program time are a no brainer already just as people plan accordingly whenever the President addresses the nation and programs are aired later then usual. Its common sense really. Name based recordings aren't the big be-all, end-all make or break deal that its made out to be here imo. In the end, all that matters is that it records reliably. The search feature built into all the Dish PVR's makes name based recording on Tivo or Ultimate TV irrelevant/a moot point for people with Dish Network. You don't need training wheels and training bras your entire life.


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## Karl Foster

The Unthinkable said:


> Overrated. Honestly, how hard is it for a Dish user to go into the program guide from time to time to select an event to record at whatever interval they want? How much hand holding do we need here to record programs? I don't see that as a big reason why its better. Aavid tv watchers will be in the guide every night at prime time or whenever they get the chance to irregardless of what they have setup to record and will be apt to catch in advance the few rare occasions when their favorite programs might go over a bit. Sports events lasting longer then their scheduled program time are a no brainer already just as people plan accordingly whenever the President addresses the nation and programs are aired later then usual. Its common sense really. Name based recordings aren't the big be-all, end-all make or break deal that its made out to be here imo. In the end, all that matters is that it records reliably. The search feature built into all the Dish PVR's makes name based recording on Tivo or Ultimate TV irrelevant/a moot point for people with Dish Network. You don't need training wheels and training bras your entire life.


I may not need training wheels to watch tv, but the ability for my receiver to continually search for programs that I want to watch and just record them without intervention is a feature that if you don't have it, you don't understand it. When "King of Queens" changes times like it did for the past two weeks, I didn't even know it. The UTV just recorded it. I personally don't find a lot of enjoyment searching the guide every night to find stuff to record.

We may have to just diagree about that, but to me name-based recording is an absolute necessity for a PVR. Without it, a PVR is nothing but a VCR with a hard drive.

While I'm ranting, how about the no-timer-limit on the Directv PVR's. Think about that when you have to do a hard reset, or RMA your 721 when you hit that 65th program (51st on a 508). Who was the Einstein that set that limit?


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## Inaba

> Overrated. Honestly, how hard is it for a Dish user to go into the program guide from time to time to select an event to record at whatever interval they want? How much hand holding do we need here to record programs? I don't see that as a big reason why its better. Aavid tv watchers will be in the guide every night at prime time or whenever they get the chance to irregardless of what they have setup to record and will be apt to catch in advance the few rare occasions when their favorite programs might go over a bit. Sports events lasting longer then their scheduled program time are a no brainer already just as people plan accordingly whenever the President addresses the nation and programs are aired later then usual. Its common sense really. Name based recordings aren't the big be-all, end-all make or break deal that its made out to be here imo. In the end, all that matters is that it records reliably. The search feature built into all the Dish PVR's makes name based recording on Tivo or Ultimate TV irrelevant/a moot point for people with Dish Network. You don't need training wheels and training bras your entire life.


You may not find it useful (you've probably never used it, thus you have no idea what you are missing.) - but the fact that nearly everyone who's used a name based recording type PVR mentions that the Dish PVRs suck because they lack this feature bellies that it's YOU who are in the minority, not the people wanting this feature.

The fact of the matter is, I do not WANT to have to sit down and paw through the guide every night to be sure I get the shows I want. In fact, I want to setup a name to watch for, and have it record it when it comes on. A prime example for this is the movie "Time Bandits." It's not on the pay channels very often (maybe once a year, at the most) - and I don't want to look through the guide every week, or two, hoping to find the movie, so I can set my PVR to record it. I may forget several months down the road... my PVR won't.

As I've mentioned in other threads, Sci-Fi channel is notorious for rearranging the weekly schedule of shows. The GUIDE IS ACCURATE ... however, shows like SG-1 and others are on at different times every day, of every week, of every month. Thus I'd have to make 365 timers just to record one show. Sometimes, Sci-Fi puts multiple SG-1's on in the evening... so I'd have to actually have MORE than 365 timers just to be sure I caught the shows I want... or gosh, I could have one named based recording timer to "Get all SG-1 shows on ALL channels" - and bang... I get SG-1 on Sci-Fi, and my local stations. The same can apply to ANY show.

Like karl_f said... if it doesn't have name based recording, it's just a glorified VCR. Yippie do. My 12 year old Mitsubishi VCR does the name thing timer wise. There's no real reason for me to have a Dish PVR at this point, and I regret buying it. Because it has no name based recording, I could never, ever reccomend this PVR to anyone I know.

So it may not be a big deal to you, but those of us who've used name based recording before will go kicking and screaming back to the stone age of VCR's and Dish's PVR. Hi! Welcome to the 90's.


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## Unthinkable

karl_f said:


> I may not need training wheels to watch tv, but the ability for my receiver to continually search for programs that I want to watch and just record them without intervention is a feature that if you don't have it, you don't understand it. When "King of Queens" changes times like it did for the past two weeks, I didn't even know it. The UTV just recorded it. I personally don't find a lot of enjoyment searching the guide every night to find stuff to record.
> 
> We may have to just diagree about that, but to me name-based recording is an absolute necessity for a PVR. Without it, a PVR is nothing but a VCR with a hard drive.
> 
> While I'm ranting, how about the no-timer-limit on the Directv PVR's. Think about that when you have to do a hard reset, or RMA your 721 when you hit that 65th program (51st on a 508). Who was the Einstein that set that limit?


I don't have to have name based recordings to understand and appreciate what it does. It takes only a couple of seconds to push guide and then another few seconds to scroll several hours in advance each night through my favorite channels to see whats on tv for the evening. I can understand the conveniance novelty factor of it, but really its not necessary at all when you can do the same thing manually in no time. You can check the tv listings in the newspapers or online just as you would lookup movie showtimes at the local theater and avoid the program guide entirely in checking whats on tv/avoiding timer problems. Really not a big deal at all and it takes next to no time to accomplish whatsoever in the grand scheme of things. I guess I could take the same logic above and say I can't believe my lazy boy recliner doesn't automatically phone up and order me a pizza when i put the phone on it. It's nothing but a stupid recliner with a phone on it. Who cares? It does exactly what its supposed to do and doesn't suggest shows I'd never want to sit through in a million years simply because I liked one offbeat movie with a random reference in it somewhere. Some folks prefer to be spoonfed and pampered with automatic dishwashers while others are fine doing it by hand.

As for the 65 event timer hypothetical scenario you mentioned above, the day I go in and setup that many timers is the day I realize that the TV is controlling me and every facet of my life to a ridiculously unhealthy extreme instead of vice versa. I don't know many people that have the free time to set aside 65 hours to just sit and watch tv endlessly. Seems like overkill to me. Thats a potential problem which affects a very small percentage of power users when evaluating it with the overall number of users. Hardly a reason to make much noise over it at this point in time. Isn't it interesting that these types of threads more often then not generally deteriorate into a handful of posters all doing their best to trash the competing satellite provider?


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## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> Like karl_f said... if it doesn't have name based recording, it's just a glorified VCR. Yippie do. My 12 year old Mitsubishi VCR does the name thing timer wise. There's no real reason for me to have a Dish PVR at this point, and I regret buying it. Because it has no name based recording, I could never, ever reccomend this PVR to anyone I know.
> 
> So it may not be a big deal to you, but those of us who've used name based recording before will go kicking and screaming back to the stone age of VCR's and Dish's PVR. Hi! Welcome to the 90's.


Its a feature that is always trumped up to be the best advantage ever over Dish PVR's when in reality it takes no time to achieve the same desired results. Tivo and Ultimate Tv users still babysit their recorders from time to time and still get bit by bugs just like Dish users do. Some folks boldy maintain name based recording is a necessity to sustain life on this planet while others view it as an unecessary lazy man's tool. Color me in the latter group. Welcome to 2003.


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## dbronstein

The Unthinkable said:


> Some folks boldy maintain name based recording is a necessity to sustain life on this planet while others view it as an unecessary lazy man's tool. Color me in the latter group. Welcome to 2003.


You're the first person I've heard claim to be in the latter group. Had I known the 721 didn't have it, I probably wouldn't have bought it and I would've given serious consideration to switching to DirecTV and getting a Directivo. (My fault for not doing the research - I just assumed a PVR would have it.) It's great that Dish doesn't track what we watch like Tivo does, but I'd gladly trade that for name-based recording. I disagree that without it a PVR is just a VCR with a hard drive, because it's still much more powerful, especially a two-tuner one like the 721. But there's no comparison between a PVR with it and one without it.

Dennis


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## spanishannouncetable

The Unthinkable said:


> I don't have to have name based recordings to understand and appreciate what it does. It takes only a couple of seconds to push guide and then another few seconds to scroll several hours in advance each night through my favorite channels to see whats on tv for the evening. I can understand the conveniance novelty factor of it, but really its not necessary at all when you can do the same thing manually in no time. You can check the tv listings in the newspapers or online just as you would lookup movie showtimes at the local theater and avoid the program guide entirely in checking whats on tv/avoiding timer problems. Really not a big deal at all and it takes next to no time to accomplish whatsoever in the grand scheme of things.


IMO, you DO need to own a unit with name-based recording and dual-tuners to really appreciate it. I owned a 501 and a DirecTiVo at the same time and had plenty of time to notice the differences and consider the possibilities. The DirecTiVo gave the 501 a no-contest, hands-down thrashing.

Why should anyone have to waste even a few minutes a day sorting through guide listings for 150+ channels, or even a handful of favorites, and then setting up recordings manually when the technology exists to have the receiver sort through the guide for you while you spend your time actually watching the recordings that are already stored on the hard drive (or doing something else altogether) ? If you spent even 5 minutes a day doing this, you'd waste more time in a month reading listings than I've spent in the last year scanning the TiVo guide. Also, by using name-based recording, the dual-tuners AUTOMATICALLY resolve conflicts (and with 2 DirecTiVos, being able to simultaneously record 4 shows during sweeps months is especially gratifying), so that's even less time wasted on scheduling TV.



> I guess I could take the same logic above and say I can't believe my lazy boy recliner doesn't automatically phone up and order me a pizza when i put the phone on it. It's nothing but a stupid recliner with a phone on it. Who cares? It does exactly what its supposed to do and doesn't suggest shows I'd never want to sit through in a million years simply because I liked one offbeat movie with a random reference in it somewhere. Some folks prefer to be spoonfed and pampered with automatic dishwashers while others are fine doing it by hand.


Your analogy is very bad. Video recorders have everything to do with recording video; phones have nothing to do with sitting in a chair, and chairs have nothing to do with ordering pizza. Now, a chair with heat/cooling/massage/variable comfort settings that could tell what sort of seating preference I had every time I sat down would compare to a full-function PVR (and it would rule, too  ).
And I turned off suggestions as soon as I had my DirecTiVos installed. They're an optional feature, not a necessary function.



> As for the 65 event timer hypothetical scenario you mentioned above, the day I go in and setup that many timers is the day I realize that the TV is controlling me and every facet of my life to a ridiculously unhealthy extreme instead of vice versa. I don't know many people that have the free time to set aside 65 hours to just sit and watch tv endlessly. Seems like overkill to me. Thats a potential problem which affects a very small percentage of power users when evaluating it with the overall number of users. Hardly a reason to make much noise over it at this point in time. Isn't it interesting that these types of threads more often then not generally deteriorate into a handful of posters all doing their best to trash the competing satellite provider?


I actually have about 60+ Season Passes and Wishlists spread across my 2 DirecTiVos, and I spend less time watching TV now than I did before I had a PVR, but getting better quality in the time I do spend watching. See, just because the TiVo records lots of stuff doesn't mean you're obligated to watch it all. Hey, I never even watch live TV any more. My DirecTiVos are my slaves, recording EVERYTHING I tell it I am likely to watch and giving me a buffet of choices whenever I choose to view regardless of the networks' often infuriating schedule changes, but they don't force me to watch what they record. The shows sit on the hard drive until they're watched or deleted because they're old and the drive is filling up. So how is TV controlling me ?

And FWIW, I don't think I've ever "trashed" Dish Network. I had both services w/PVRs at the same time, and decided that, for my needs and based on my own experience, Directv was better. I have no complaints about either company (billing, price, service, etc.), but I preferred Directv's PQ and IMHO Echostar PVRs just don't measure up technology-wise.


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## bills976

spanishannouncetable said:


> IMO, you DO need to own a unit with name-based recording and dual-tuners to really appreciate it. I owned a 501 and a DirecTiVo at the same time and had plenty of time to notice the differences and consider the possibilities. The DirecTiVo gave the 501 a no-contest, hands-down thrashing.


Agreed. How many Tivo/PVR skeptics were there, who thought that Tivo was just a gimmick for rich people? I did, that is until I tried it. Then I actually knew the difference between a regular old VCR and a Tivo.

As for the 501/Tivo comparison, I too have owned a 501 and they just don't compare. In three months of straight usage (and quite heavy usage I might add), I have yet to reset the receiver. No smartcard pull, no nothing. If I would turn the channels too fast on my 501, it would lock up. Resetting the receiver was a weekly event... not too bothersome, but it speaks to the reliability of the product.



> Why should anyone have to waste even a few minutes a day sorting through guide listings for 150+ channels, or even a handful of favorites, and then setting up recordings manually when the technology exists to have the receiver sort through the guide for you while you spend your time actually watching the recordings that are already stored on the hard drive (or doing something else altogether) ? If you spent even 5 minutes a day doing this, you'd waste more time in a month reading listings than I've spent in the last year scanning the TiVo guide. Also, by using name-based recording, the dual-tuners AUTOMATICALLY resolve conflicts (and with 2 DirecTiVos, being able to simultaneously record 4 shows during sweeps months is especially gratifying), so that's even less time wasted on scheduling TV.


EXACTLY!! Isn't the whole point of a Tivo to save time? I mean, isn't the only reason you use a PVR over recording something on tape to avoid the hassle and time it takes to get the tape, find the spot on the tape where the program starts, and then hit play? You can pretty much get the same basic functionality out of a VCR if you've got the patience.



> And I turned off suggestions as soon as I had my DirecTiVos installed. They're an optional feature, not a necessary function.


Me too. I didn't really find much use for them, though for those who'd like it, it's really nice to have it there.



> And FWIW, I don't think I've ever "trashed" Dish Network. I had both services w/PVRs at the same time, and decided that, for my needs and based on my own experience, Directv was better. I have no complaints about either company (billing, price, service, etc.), but I preferred Directv's PQ and IMHO Echostar PVRs just don't measure up technology-wise.


Same here. I've never tried to badmouth either company. I just disagree with Echostar's philosophy regarding their hardware. If they would just outsource their software development for everything, from the 301 up to the 721, I honestly think they would put out a better product. What incentive does their development team have to improve their own product? If they were a software vendor, they'd have competition a la Directv and would be forced to continually improve their product. But that's just my opinion.


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## Inaba

> It takes only a couple of seconds to push guide and then another few seconds to scroll several hours in advance each night through my favorite channels to see whats on tv for the evening. I can understand the conveniance novelty factor of it, but really its not necessary at all when you can do the same thing manually in no time. You can check the tv listings in the newspapers or online just as you would lookup movie showtimes at the local theater and avoid the program guide entirely in checking whats on tv/avoiding timer problems. Really not a big deal at all and it takes next to no time to accomplish whatsoever in the grand scheme of things.


Really? A couple seconds? You must be joking. It takes much longer to scroll through the next 24 hours of shows than "a couple seconds." But that's neither here nor there. Unlike you, apparently, I am not a slave to my TV. Which means I don't sit down and watch TV EVERY SINGLE NIGHT of the week. I watch it when it's convenient for me, which is why I have PVR's. If I had the time or desire to sit down and watch TV every night, then I really wouldn't need a PVR, just a VCR, eh?

Guess what else... I don't get a newspaper. Haven't for years. I don't see a need for it, and if you are suggesting that I get a newspaper solely to check TV listings, you are nuts.

So basically, you are suggesting that name based recording is a novelty, and that I should spend extra time each day perusing the EPG, when I could have a machine do it for me? With that skewed logic, why do you have any time saving device? I bet you have a number of them in your home, and you use them daily... yet this time saving device is a novelty? I really don't understand where you can even say some of the things you've said with a straight face... How many minutes per day do you spend perusing the guide? I'll bet it's more than "next to no time at all." With name based recording, you don't HAVE to do that. You don't have to be concerned with missing a show because the time changed for no apparent reason (or even an apparent reason... you just don't have to worry about it). Your PVR SHOULD scan the EPG for you constantly, looking for a particular show you've been wanting to record for a long time, and probably forget about now and then. I know I could never find some of the movies I want to watch w/o name based recording... simply because I don't keep a list of them memorized and check off that list every week while I scan the guide out for the next week... that would be utterly ridiculous... yet that's exactly what you are proposing people do...



> As for the 65 event timer hypothetical scenario you mentioned above, the day I go in and setup that many timers is the day I realize that the TV is controlling me and every facet of my life to a ridiculously unhealthy extreme instead of vice versa. I don't know many people that have the free time to set aside 65 hours to just sit and watch tv endlessly. Seems like overkill to me. Thats a potential problem which affects a very small percentage of power users when evaluating it with the overall number of users. Hardly a reason to make much noise over it at this point in time. Isn't it interesting that these types of threads more often then not generally deteriorate into a handful of posters all doing their best to trash the competing satellite provider?


No, it affects everyone who wants to watch a series that is on at irregular times. I gave you the 365 timer scenario because it illustrated a point, not because it was practical. Since you missed the point, I'll spell it out for you: With name based recording, it's the equivilent of having 365+ timers in one. By any stretch of the imagination, that's not a novelty. In fact, let me illustrate it in another way that may be familiar to you; Do you watch TV based on the time, or do you watch TV based on the show? IE - do you just sit down at 7:00pm on Thursday nights on any channel, regardless of what's on? Or do you sit down at a given time, on a given channel to watch a particular program? Name based recording is intuitive to humans, we watch TV shows based on the name, essentially... we do not watch TV shows based on the time. Why should we record shows based on the time, when we could easily do it based on the name, a method we are much more intimately familiar with.



> Its a feature that is always trumped up to be the best advantage ever over Dish PVR's when in reality it takes no time to achieve the same desired results. Tivo and Ultimate Tv users still babysit their recorders from time to time and still get bit by bugs just like Dish users do. Some folks boldy maintain name based recording is a necessity to sustain life on this planet while others view it as an unecessary lazy man's tool. Color me in the latter group. Welcome to 2003.


It always turns up because it's a sorely lacking feature of EVERY OTHER PVR on the market, except Dish. I wonder why that is? Maybe because it's a popular feature? I never had to babysit my UTV. NEVER. It did exactly what I wanted it to do... it recorded the shows I wanted. I can't recall a single bug I've experienced with the UTV... and I've already hit a few with the 721. I'm not advocating UTV, nor am I advocating Tivo. I have Dish. I got Dish because I like the company. But trying to pass the 721 and the other Dish PVR's off as "equivilent" to other PVRs is pure fantasy. They do nothing as good as every other PVR on the market. They are an unfinished, rough edged product, lacking in critical features and prone to crashes. Yet, I have a Dish PVR, and I will continue to be an E* customer, even with crappy hardware... because I believe E* is better than D* as a company.

Calling name based recording the "lazy mans tool" is like calling an Airplane the lazy mans automobile. lol... Next time you want to get somewhere fast, don't take a plane... follow your own advice and drive to Europe!

You are the first person I have ever met that claims that name based recording is not superior to time based recording. The first, and I suspect the only person that can claim that with a straight face. Regardless, no matter how much you want to deny it, the 721 is a glorified VCR, nothing more. It doesn't have the defining PVR feature.


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## harsh

One disadvantage of going with an outboard TiVo (or ReplayTV) unit (which can be done with either E* or D*) is that you have to go through a decode, a baseband cable, and an encode versus a direct to disk save. Same goes for audio.

In theory, DishPVR (and DirecTiVo) should offer better drive space utilization because of the "cleaner" signal versus the codec outboard solution.

The "lifetime" fees for both standalone TiVo and ReplayTV are supposedly both jumping up to $299.99 for the life of the serial numbered unit (not the life of the owner). Alternatively, the monthly fees are $12.95 for TiVo, $9.95 for ReplayTV and $4.95 for DirecTiVo.

One major advantage (if I understand the dysfunction of the Dish OTA tuner) is that an outboard PVR solution can give you stereo sound on the locals (with an OTA antenna) without having to subscribe to local programming. This may not be an issue with DirecTV receivers.

I'm kinda torn between DishPVR and ReplayTV.


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## Jacob S

I think that if one has not used the name based recording feature that they do not completely know what they are missing and may not see that as much of a must have feature as those that do have the feature. Its just like someone that does not have pvr and then getting it and not being able to do without it like you used to or someone that got satellite tv and not being able to do without it.

It is just a matter of time until there will be a unit out there that resolves all these problems and the closest thing I can think of is a Tivo standalone that can work on anything and can be upgradable unless you get software for your computer.


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## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> Really? A couple seconds? You must be joking. It takes much longer to scroll through the next 24 hours of shows than "a couple seconds." But that's neither here nor there. Unlike you, apparently, I am not a slave to my TV. Which means I don't sit down and watch TV EVERY SINGLE NIGHT of the week. I watch it when it's convenient for me, which is why I have PVR's. If I had the time or desire to sit down and watch TV every night, then I really wouldn't need a PVR, just a VCR, eh?


Not joking at all. I used two PVR 501's from the day they were first available from Dish Network and now use one 721 for all my recording needs. Every night around 6pm or so, I'll scroll ahead through the local channels along with the rest of my favorites to see if anything looks good to record for later viewing. The 721 shows 7 channels worth of guide data at once with the pip window enabled that you can cruise forward through in no time at all. Painless, simple, incredibly easy to do and something I'd do anyways. Bad assumption on your part on me being a slave to my TV - figured you would have gotten that part right if nothing else from my previous response regarding having no need for 65 timers. I watch tv when its conveniant for me as well and do time shifting every day. Gotta love folks that jump to premature conclusions and assume things without all the facts properly assembled in advance.



Inaba said:


> Guess what else... I don't get a newspaper. Haven't for years. I don't see a need for it, and if you are suggesting that I get a newspaper solely to check TV listings, you are nuts.


You must have missed the part where I mentioned you can read most newspapers and tv listings online for free anytime you want to for the most part. Again another wrong assumption on your part. I read all my favorite papers online for free myself.



Inaba said:


> So basically, you are suggesting that name based recording is a novelty, and that I should spend extra time each day perusing the EPG, when I could have a machine do it for me? With that skewed logic, why do you have any time saving device? I bet you have a number of them in your home, and you use them daily... yet this time saving device is a novelty? I really don't understand where you can even say some of the things you've said with a straight face... How many minutes per day do you spend perusing the guide? I'll bet it's more than "next to no time at all." With name based recording, you don't HAVE to do that. You don't have to be concerned with missing a show because the time changed for no apparent reason (or even an apparent reason... you just don't have to worry about it). Your PVR SHOULD scan the EPG for you constantly, looking for a particular show you've been wanting to record for a long time, and probably forget about now and then. I know I could never find some of the movies I want to watch w/o name based recording... simply because I don't keep a list of them memorized and check off that list every week while I scan the guide out for the next week... that would be utterly ridiculous... yet that's exactly what you are proposing people do...


I said name based recording is overrated and something that can easily be done manually in no time at all on the Dish PVR's. It's not the ace in the hole trump card many DirecTV advocates love to proclaim it is imo. At least for courtesy sake, quote me correctly if you are going to bother to reply to my posts here. I don't spend minutes in the program guide every day. I have timers set to record all my favorite programs whenever they air so I can watch them whenever I want to. I'll zoom through the guide whenever the urge strikes to see if anything else looks good. I'm not the type to freak out and deem the world has ended, because my non name-based "unintelligent digital vcr" didn't record a rerun from six years ago of Buffy, Star Trek, insert whatever your favorite show here is as I don't even watch any of those shows. Tv isn't a life or death thing. If I'm dying to see Time Bandits so badly and its not shown on regular satellite tv all that often, I'll go down and rent it on DVD if the urge strikes like most everyone else would do.



Inaba said:


> No, it affects everyone who wants to watch a series that is on at irregular times. I gave you the 365 timer scenario because it illustrated a point, not because it was practical. Since you missed the point, I'll spell it out for you: With name based recording, it's the equivilent of having 365+ timers in one. By any stretch of the imagination, that's not a novelty. In fact, let me illustrate it in another way that may be familiar to you; Do you watch TV based on the time, or do you watch TV based on the show? IE - do you just sit down at 7:00pm on Thursday nights on any channel, regardless of what's on? Or do you sit down at a given time, on a given channel to watch a particular program? Name based recording is intuitive to humans, we watch TV shows based on the name, essentially... we do not watch TV shows based on the time. Why should we record shows based on the time, when we could easily do it based on the name, a method we are much more intimately familiar with.


Another wrong assumption on your part. I didn't miss the point about the timers for one and for two it was initially brought up by Karl F. The point was a moot one for me, because I've never had a need to setup 65 event timers and can never fathom a day when I do need to record that many shows to be honest. I'd speculate most folks with Dish Network PVR's will never even be aware of a timer limit that could possibly crimp their record everything lifestyles. For most people it's a complete non-factor in the grand scheme of things. No sense in attempting to make it a horrible atrocity of epic proportions imo. I watch tv whenever its conveniant for me and I browse the guide whenever the urge strikes. I'm not trying to set a world record for recording every episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or freaking Star Trek Voyager and I'm not looking to transfer these shows to videotape or dvd later for archiving purposes.



Inaba said:


> It always turns up because it's a sorely lacking feature of EVERY OTHER PVR on the market, except Dish. I wonder why that is? Maybe because it's a popular feature? I never had to babysit my UTV. NEVER. It did exactly what I wanted it to do... it recorded the shows I wanted. I can't recall a single bug I've experienced with the UTV... and I've already hit a few with the 721. I'm not advocating UTV, nor am I advocating Tivo. I have Dish. I got Dish because I like the company. But trying to pass the 721 and the other Dish PVR's off as "equivilent" to other PVRs is pure fantasy. They do nothing as good as every other PVR on the market. They are an unfinished, rough edged product, lacking in critical features and prone to crashes. Yet, I have a Dish PVR, and I will continue to be an E* customer, even with crappy hardware... because I believe E* is better than D* as a company.
> 
> Calling name based recording the "lazy mans tool" is like calling an Airplane the lazy mans automobile. lol... Next time you want to get somewhere fast, don't take a plane... follow your own advice and drive to Europe!
> 
> You are the first person I have ever met that claims that name based recording is not superior to time based recording. The first, and I suspect the only person that can claim that with a straight face. Regardless, no matter how much you want to deny it, the 721 is a glorified VCR, nothing more. It doesn't have the defining PVR feature.


Threads like these always tend to deteriorate into folks steadfastly maintaining their satellite provider or pvr is hands down the clear cut number one champion when all of them do the essential things people want and all of them have their advantages and disadvantages. I don't want a remote control that looks like it came out of a Fisher Price box with goofy buttons and even goofier kindergarten sound effects every time I press it whether its an option that can be disabled or not like Tivo has. I'm glad you love your UTV and you don't have to babysit it ever. It works for you and thats great. My 721 works perfectly for all my needs and does everything I need as well. I don't have to babysit it either fwiw from the very first day I set it up and selected all my favorite timers. Who said anything about one recording format being superior to others? I said it was overrated/overhyped and not the big deal it was made out to be. Jacob S. fyi... I've used Tivo's and Ultimate TV's before so I know exactly how name based recordings work. I've said it before and I'll say it again. At the end of the day, all that matters is that the stuff I want to watch later is recorded in its entirety without issues. People tend to get so passionate and defensive about their choice in providers and pvr's here when in a lot of instances the differences aren't even all that substantial.


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## AllieVi

The Unthinkable said:


> Overrated. Honestly, how hard is it for a Dish user to go into the program guide from time to time to select an event to record (etc., etc.)...


It's amusing to see how much response this flame-baiting post generated. I can't be the only one who doesn't take it seriously, CAN I?


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## Inaba

> At the end of the day, all that matters is that the stuff I want to watch later is recorded in its entirety without issues.


And this is exactly why the 721 is not a PVR. It can't record stuff you want to watch later if it doesn't know anything but timers... whereas every other PVR on the market can.

I'm glad you don't feel the need for name based recording, but the fact of the matter is, it's what makes a PVR a PVR. PVR is short for personal video recorder. There's nothing personal about setting a timer for a specific channel, on a specific day... any dumb piece of electronics can do that. What makes it "personal" is the fact that it's intelligent enough to know that you want to record XXXXX show, and thus records it.

I am not a UTV (or Tivo) or D* advocate. I cancled my UTV and D* in favor of the E* 721. That's the ONLY PVR I'm using right now. I'll say it again, I believe E* to be a superior company from a CS standpoint. Since I've now used both quite extensively, I think I have at least some modicum of authority to state which is better... and hands down the 721 is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to PVRs. I don't like to say that. It's my machine of choice... I'm talking down my own hardware here, but I'm not going to BS and trump it up to be some great piece of engineering just because it's the one I chose to buy, when it's clearly an unfinshed product; especially when compared to everything it competes with.

Name based recording is a critical feature of a PVR... ask anyone who's used a *real* PVR and they'll tell you the same thing. Like people have said, if you've never used it, you have no idea what the big deal is... but once you use it, you don't want to go back.


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## ibglowin

Inaba said:


> And this is exactly why the 721 is not a PVR. It can't record stuff you want to watch later if it doesn't know anything but timers... whereas every other PVR on the market can.
> 
> Name based recording is a critical feature of a PVR... ask anyone who's used a *real* PVR and they'll tell you the same thing. Like people have said, if you've never used it, you have no idea what the big deal is... but once you use it, you don't want to go back.


I have not only one but two not real (fake) PVRs. On no I guess their not PVR's. Gosh I don't know what to call them now.

Guess what I hate to tell you this but here goes. I have never needed or missed name based recording. My timers have never misfired and if they did it wouldn't be the end of the frickin world.

Geeze, you need to get a life. Your quickly starting to stink this place up.


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## Mike D-CO5

This whole conversation sounds like a group of little kids saying "My Dad can beat your Dad up !!!"


I mean there are people who like Dish and there are people who like Directv. Does it really matter as long as we all agree Satellite is better than cable in most cases. I like Dish and I have the 508 and 721 I like both . I also have a stand alone Tivo which I don't really like as well but to each his own. This topic should be listed with the other topics you are not supossed to talk about in polite company: Religion, Politics, Abortion, etc.

"Can't we all just get along!" and" agree to disagree."


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## Unthinkable

AllieVi said:


> It's amusing to see how much response this flame-baiting post generated. I can't be the only one who doesn't take it seriously, CAN I?


 What are you talking about? My posts here or the original post? I don't post here to encourage others to flame and I certainly don't delve into name calling or condescending waters in an attempt to take the focus off of the true subject at hand. I disagreed with one point and stated my opinions in a clear and concise manner. If you think flame baiting is my true agenda, I openly encourage you to head on over to Hockey's Future where you can sift through all my posts in the Devils group and elsewhere in that forum under the same name looking for any semblance of proof that would back up such an assertion. Hope you have plenty of free time. What is up with all the judgements and assumptions here btw???? Folks post less here on account of this kind of thing fwiw.


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## Randy_B

> I think that if one has not used the name based recording feature that they do not completely know what they are missing


What am I missing Jacob? I DO NOT want my 721 or 501 recording every John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movie or every episode of Buffy or the X-files that are on all the channels out there! Even though my 721 has 90 hrs, I don't want it filling the drive with it's "guesses". I have programmed them for the shows that my family wants and both the 501 and 721 dutifully record them EVERY time. Nothing missing here.



> What makes it "personal" is the fact that it's intelligent enough to know that you want to record XXXXX show, and thus records it.


My 721 AND my 501 do EXACTLY that. I have had them for since they came out, I set it *once* for a show (like the Tivo'istas and Replayites) and neither has EVER missed a show I wanted recorded -- that was correct in the guide. The *EXACT* same weakness that Tivo and Replay have. I watch it when I WANT to exactly the same as your "magical" PVR inaba. Name based recording is an incremental improvement, PERHAPS. The clear fact is that shows do NOT move around that much. It is death for the networks if they do. When shows are bumped or delayed, it is last minute and the guides are ALL wrong and NONE of the PVRs on the market can do a damn thing about it. Name based recording is not magic and you're a fool if you think it is. But, I already know the answer to that one. 
!pride


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## Unthinkable

Randy_B said:


> What am I missing Jacob? I DO NOT want my 721 or 501 recording every John Wayne or Clint Eastwood movie or every episode of Buffy or the X-files that are on all the channels out there! Even though my 721 has 90 hrs, I don't want it filling the drive with it's "guesses". I have programmed them for the shows that my family wants and both the 501 and 721 dutifully record them EVERY time. Nothing missing here.
> 
> My 721 AND my 501 do EXACTLY that. I have had them for since they came out, I set it *once* for a show (like the Tivo'istas and Replayites) and neither has EVER missed a show I wanted recorded -- that was correct in the guide. The *EXACT* same weakness that Tivo and Replay have. I watch it when I WANT to exactly the same as your "magical" PVR inaba. Name based recording is an incremental improvement, PERHAPS. The clear fact is that shows do NOT move around that much. It is death for the networks if they do. When shows are bumped or delayed, it is last minute and the guides are ALL wrong and NONE of the PVRs on the market can do a damn thing about it. Name based recording is not magic and you're a fool if you think it is. But, I already know the answer to that one.
> !pride


Amen to all of these points. Big amen. Couldn't agree more there. The only time I run into shows changing schedules is when Tech TV sometimes inserts a 30 minute infomercial for Dell or Microsoft for example which bumps a show off its normal schedule, BUT they repeat their shows all day long so you can just record it at a later time slot. Same goes for ESPN2 late night when their guide data is wrong and they air NBA2Night when NHL2Night is supposed to be shown for example, but again these shows are shown all night long so you just record an hour long block or so on the channels that you know are prone to shifting their lineup from time to time and its not even an issue. Little bit of common sense and a bit of poking around every know and then and its a total non issue.


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## Inaba

Yea, I guess you're right about name based recording. It's an unimportant feature. Of course, we can ignore the fact that every other PVR on the market has it, and everyone who's used it and then was hitten by the Dish PVR "gotcha" of no name based recording complains about the lack of said feature... yea... all those people are wrong, including Tivo, UTV and ReplayTV are wrong. I guess they have no idea what customers really want!

Like I said, if you don't want it/like it/need it/care for it... fine. You don't have to use it. Even if it was an option on the 721 (or 501, etc...) you still wouldn't have to use it... however, _I_ along with everyone else who has used it before _want_ it. And because this feature is missing from the 721, the 721 is nothing but a glorified VCR, and an overpriced one at that. 

Unless you are also denying the fact that the 721 has a number of serious problems beyond the lack of name based recording? (Such as the 64 timer limit that BREAKS the unit. I'm not saying people need 64 timers... but do you really think it's not a crippling bug that a "feature" that can be easily accessed by the consumer will render the unit unusable? By anyones definition, this is a major flaw. Oh... lets not forget to mention the fact that the 721 is prone to crashing and rebooting on occasion, or requiring a smart card pull/insert to reset. Oh, and don't forget the PIP buggy issues that crop up now and then. 2 week EPG problems anyone? The list goes on.)

For those of you who like to sit and scrutinize the guide on a nightly basis, more power to ya. But I have much better things to do with my time than look through the EPG. I'd much rather have a machine do that for me. But to each his own.

I find it funny, and sad at the same time that people arguing against additional functionality on units that will increase market share for Dish. It's like cutting your nose off to spite your face. So rock on! Argue against making the Dish PVRs competitive with every other PVR! Keep those pesky customers away from Dish! You know what kinda trouble they are!


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## Mike D-CO5

That 's my point , the judgements based on your pvr provider vs my Dvr is a little silly . We all like different things about our providers and their receivers. I just think that this is the latest in my satellite provider is better than yours. Been there , Read that before. It's getting really old. But if you want to debate this over and over again , GO FOR IT!! I want be reading or contributing to any more of these arguments.


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## Jacob S

Well you misunderstood what I was saying. I said you do not 'completely' know what you are missing in that you do not know what its like to have such a feature. Of course I know that you would understand that you are missing out on getting shows recorded if the time changes or it comes on earlier, later, etc. Its just like telling someone about what a Dish PVR can do but until they own one they will not know what it is like to own one. That is what I meant. I also want name based recordings for this reason. I figured some may misunderstand what I would have said in which can easily be done. I was going along the lines of what someone else in this post had said agreeing with that person.


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## Randy_B

Jacob, I am not trying to belabor the point, but if my 501 and 721 have NEVER missed a show, that was correct in the guide, what am I missing? No doubt that name based recording is a nice, fall back just in case, but I have never missed anything so . . . It seems its biggest advantage is that it is critical for the suggested recordings feature and the season pass. Season pass would be nice, but that is not the same as the name based recording. Like saying you have never tasted vanilla ice cream if you have never had Ben and Jerry.

inaba you can't actualy be as thick as you seem. Have you EVER read the Tivo forums. Lots of pain in there. My neighbor has had more aggravation with his 2 Tivo's than I have ever had with my 501 or 721. Your generalities are as obtuse as you seem to be.


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## Inaba

> Jacob, I am not trying to belabor the point, but if my 501 and 721 have NEVER missed a show, that was correct in the guide, what am I missing?


Either you do not use your 721 to record the types of things most people do, you don't do much recording, or you constantly verify that your PVR is set to record what you want it to record at the appropriate time. None of those situations apply to most people, except perhaps the not using the PVR to record many shows.

You can whine and cry all you want about the bashing of the Dish PVRs, bu the bottom line is they are inferior to every other PVR on the market feature wise. You can't deny this... how you keep trying to deny this is beyond me. Feature for feature, the Dish PVRs are lacking.

I would love to hear how you use your 721, and how it's "never missed a show." I've had my 721 for almost a month now, and I've recorded probably 20 different shows of junk I have no inention or desire to watch... and why? Because the shows I want to record are on at irregular times and I have no desire to sit and peruse the guide on a dailing basis and babysit my PVR to be sure it records what I want. How thick headed to you have to be to fail to understand that I do _NOT_ want to babysit my PVR, which you MUST do with the 721.

You can complain and gripe all day about how I don't know what I'm talking about, that I'm obtuse, thick headed, etc... but until you can show me how to program the 721 to record shows that are not in a specific time slot or any specific day, at the end of it all, it's you who are wrong, thick headed and obtuse. So please get this through your head... *until you can provide to me a means to record shows that have no set time/date that does not invlove daily/weekly/monthly attention, you need to keep your fingers off the keys, because you sound like an Dish zealot, nothing more.*



> inaba you can't actualy be as thick as you seem. Have you EVER read the Tivo forums. Lots of pain in there. My neighbor has had more aggravation with his 2 Tivo's than I have ever had with my 501 or 721. Your generalities are as obtuse as you seem to be.


The only ones that seem thick here are the people arguing against increasing the functionality of the Dish PVRs, such as yourself.

I fail to see what the pain and suffering of the Tivo people have to do with the lack of functionality and bugginess of the 721... they are two seperate products. It doesn't matter how buggy the competitor is, if the unit in question is buggy, then it's buggy, end of story. Regardless, the bugginess is not my biggest gripe, as I've said again and again... and which you've failed to understand again, and a gain.

Again, I've used the different PVRs, unliike (apparently) you and the others who are crying about adding additinoal functionality - I _know_ what I'm talking about, whereas you do not. If you have used the other PVRs extensively, and you still cling to your outmoded beliefs, great! More power to you... but like I've said several times in this thread, everyone who's used other PVRs features and have found them lacking in the 721 agree with me. No one who's used the features in question agrees with you. So where does that leave us?

You go about living in your 20th century world, I prefer to move along with the rest of life into the 21st century. If that makes me obtuse, so be it... but hey, at least I won't have to paw through the EPG every day to find shows I want.


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## bills976

Can we all just get along? It looks like we'll have to agree to disagree....


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## dbronstein

I think a lot of it depends on what you record. If you record mainly network primetime shows, for example, there aren't very many schedule changes and time-based recording works fine. If you record a lot on the non-network channels like SciFi., BBC America, etc. that change their schedules frequently, then time-based recording doesn't work so well.

Dennis


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## Cyber Nun

This whole topic is flamebait...

We all know God is better than the TiVo or the Dish PVR.


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## Jacob S

Yep, this is flamebait alright, have nothing against anyone though, it makes for interesting discussion. What would this world be like without other's opinions?

Me not ever seeing Tivo in action or not ever owning one or using one I would not honestly know if it was better or not but only know what I am told. Thats the only reason I said that you dont know what your missing to have a feature like that instead of not knowing what its like to have that feature until you have it. Things can be taken into different context and words twisted around. 

And yes, GOD is better than both, and he would have made a better PVR than either of these, no matter how good or bad they are.


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## snagel

Fwiw , I don't think that I would like my harddrive running all of the time recording the Tivo's suggestions just to have to delete more than half the crap that it would add.
I currently have a 508 receiver and usually only have around 10 hours or alot less available recording space left.
Although name based recording may be just the ticket for Karl F and those that really want it or think they need it I believe most Tivo and Replay users spend just about as much time weeding through stuff that is already recorded by their units and then deleting them as Dish users spend looking at the guides and then selecting the shows that they really want to record in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trashing Tivo or replay, I don't have a PVR fee and I like that, My 508 records everything that I have asked it to record pretty much without flaw.
As far as being a glorified VCR I don't believe that my VCR's , not even one of 5 will find the exact place of a show or recorded event just by pressing a select button./ nor will either one of them allow me while recording the show and watching it at the same time allow me to stop and rewind continuously to watch something in closer detail without screwing up the recording. So as far as being a glorified VCR I don't believe it is.
YMMV


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## scooper

And even if that is the way it works ( "glorified VCR") - maybe that's all some people want - that's how I do my viewing when I record to my PC - set the time up with my 4700, then set the TV scheduler program on my Hauppage WinPVR250 to auto-record. From my perspective - it sure works better than a VCR - no tapes ! I'm waiting on the Dish522 to come out for my jump into the PVR world.

OTOH, I can certainly see the advantages of TiVO / Replay as well. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Jacob S

I also think the pvr is much better than a vcr and it is not some glorified vcr. Isnt there a way to shut off the feature that chooses shows to record on its own on the Tivo's? I would think there was.


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## dswallow

TiVo suggestions simply fill up otherwise unused space; and the space remains available for user-initiated recordings as needed without the user having to manually spend any time at all clearing it out. Suggestions simply exist in the background if you want them, being recorded by tuners you're not otherwise using, taking up space only when that space isn't needed for something else.

TiVo can simply record what you want it to, without much need for watching over it... programs getting moved around by networks? No problem... it still records them. A special episode runs 15 minutes longer than usual, no problem, it gets it.

I also do not have a PVR fee. I paid for lifetime service, though now that Total Choice Premier subscribers get the service for free, that doesn't matter at the moment. My TiVo unit plus lifetime service cost about what I paid for the 50x unit, too.

I have a 50x receiver for ExpressVu, and it's constantly requiring me to manage it... watching over programs getting rescheduled. Otherwise I end up with the block of time I told it to record being recorded, even if what I wanted isn't broadcast then anymore. A big pain by comparison.


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## Jacob S

I figured the Tivo suggestions could be turned off though. If you have enough hard drive space it would not be so bad but a lack of hard drive space can really create a problem with the Tivo as I can see.


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## krlauver

No one has mentioned picture quality. I may be wrong but doesn't the PVR record the digital stream directly in MPG2 vs. the TIVO method of converting the analog to digital? Perhaps the DirectTV TIVO does record the digital stream but I do not know that.


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## Bill R

krlauver said:


> No one has mentioned picture quality. Perhaps the DirectTV TIVO does record the digital stream but I do not know that.


It does record the digital stream just like the DISH PVRs.


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## Bill R

Jacob S said:


> If you have enough hard drive space it would not be so bad but a lack of hard drive space can really create a problem with the Tivo as I can see.


Jacob,

AGAIN, you are WRONG. DirecTV TiVos will NEVER erase a program that you recorded in order to record a "suggestion".

Aren't you a DISH dealer? I am constantly amazed about what you DON'T KNOW about your competition. If I were you, I would learn everything that I could about the "other guy's" products and services.


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## harsh

krlauver said:


> No one has mentioned picture quality. I may be wrong but doesn't the PVR record the digital stream directly in MPG2 vs. the TIVO method of converting the analog to digital? Perhaps the DirectTV TIVO does record the digital stream but I do not know that.


The DishPVR and DirecTiVo units record the satellite feed direct to the hard drive. You should not be able to discern live from recorded.


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## Jacob S

I did not say that it would erase a program, but saying that would be less space for the programs you may want in the future on the hard drive if it is filling that hard drive up before you get the shows that you have chosen yourself to record. I know that the Dish PVR's along with DirecTivo records right off the bitstream but the Tivo Standalones do not where there are quality settings in which results in a different number of hours of record time per quality setting.

No, I may not know as much about my competition as I should. It would be bad if I knew more about my competition than my own brand. Just because I do not know everything there is to know about the Tivo does not mean I do not know that much about the competition. I got into this as a hobby mainly.


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## Bill R

Jacob S said:


> I did not say that it would erase a program, but saying that would be less space for the programs you may want in the future on the hard drive if it is filling that hard drive up before you get the shows that you have chosen yourself to record.
> 
> No, I may not know as much about my competition as I should. It would be bad if I knew more about my competition than my own brand.


Jacob,

If you turn on "suggestions" there is NOT less space for programs you want to record. A DirecTV TiVo will erase its suggestioned recorded programs to record what you want. You really need to get one and you will see why DISH has failed (so far) to come out with a product as good as the TiVo (I still have great hope for the 721 but there needs to be some BIG software changes ESPECIALLY in the second tuner buffering area).

The best sales people that I have ever known ALWAYS knew as much about the competition's products as they did about their own. Knowing what the "other guy's" product can or can't do is what makes a good sales person even better.


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## krlauver

harsh said:


> The DishPVR and DirecTiVo units record the satellite feed direct to the hard drive. You should not be able to discern live from recorded.


Bill R and Harsh,

I thank you for correcting me on that.

krlauver


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## Curtis0620

I record a lot of sports. My Tivo can record the Orlando Magic whenever they are televised no matter what channel they are on or what time they play without me having to do anything (I use a keyword wishlist).

Can the 501 or 721 do this?

This is why name-based recording is invaluable.


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## Karl Foster

Curtis0620 said:


> I record a lot of sports. My Tivo can record the Orlando Magic whenever they are televised no matter what channel they are on or what time they play without me having to do anything (I use a keyword wishlist).
> 
> Can the 501 or 721 do this?
> 
> This is why name-based recording is invaluable.


Oh man... I tried this approach and was immediately b**ch-slapped. Good luck to you


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## Inaba

> Oh man... I tried this approach and was immediately b**ch-slapped. Good luck to you


It's pointless to argue with Dish zealots (Or any hardware/software zealot... Mac/Apple, DTV, etc...). They can't see the forest for the trees, and they go so far as to tell you that you're obtuse for wanting additional features added to a product... It's all about passion, and there's no room for logic or common sense when arguing with people like that.

I'm a Dish customer, part and parcel, I do not have DTV, Tivo or UTV, although I have used all three extensively. The 721 is my current and only PVR. I have nothing to gain by pointing out the glaring flaws in the unit; I do not work for any of those companies, have no stock in them, have absolutely no allegiance to them what so ever, but I refuse to artificially bolster the hardware I choose to use, simply because I choose to use it. The 721 is the worst PVR on the market, plain and simple. It lacks features, and is laced with numerous bugs and/or bad U/I design.

I use the 721 because I believe in Dish as a company (I vote with my dollars). I have received reprehensible customer service and customer treatment from DTV, and thus I will never patronize them again. Dish has always been good to me, CS wise, which I value above and beyond the products themselves, unless they are totally unusable. The 721 is not totally unusable, I've never said or implied that... but as a PVR it's wretched. From a U/I standpoint, it's barely passable. When comparing it to other PVRs, the 721 simple doesn't even come close to any other PVR on the market, it's not just in last place, it's been lapped 3 or 4 times by even the 2nd worst PVR, as far as PVR functions goes.

I do not use a Tivo precisely because I wish to record directly off the satellite stream... and my only option, other than the Dish PVRs for that would be DirecTivo, and I refuse to patronize DTV. So the Dish PVR is my only choice. If I had a choice of a Dish Tivo, I would certainly buy one this instant and *give* away my 1 month old 721 to one of my enemies. If I could even buy a M$ (gag) UTV box for Dish, I would, again, buy one this instant and again, give away my 721. The same goes for ReplayTV.

It always facinates me how people think they can talk about a product with authority that they've never used... the Dish zealots who obviously have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, attemping to speak with authority on features of other PVRs, how useful a feature is, what's needed and what isn't, when they've _never even sat down and used one_ is utterly ridiculous, and gives them exactly zero credibility on anything they say. But to a zealot, it makes no difference... it's all about justifying your choice of hardware (or software), no matter how ridiculous the position. If it makes 'em feel better about spending obscene amounts of money on an albatross, fine... they can have thier piece of mind. Fortunately, I don't feel the need to justify my purchases in that manner... and if I make a bad choice (or it's my only choice) - then so be it. I'll do better next time (I hope!)


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## Martyva

i once had a 1956 austin healey 100. For those of you that remember, it was one of the last great english road cars. You set on a 2" pad that had about a one foot back, your feet extended down a tunnel with barely enough room to negotiate the pedals. It came with 15" spoke wheels and you could stick your arm out the window and touch the ground. in the 3 months, i had the car (i married) i had a major overhaul, a major tuneup and replaced the wiper blades. The top blew open at 50, so i left it down. On the way to replace the wiper blades at 70 with the top down in a snow storm with my ungloved hand wiping the snow off the windshield, the electric overdrive caught fire and smoke was billowing out from under the dash. The electric overdrive had a mind of its own, after that. The wiring was bad, the carpet on the firewall was falling dow. I did add door latches (i'd had the doors wired together. The exhaust system fell out of the car 30 minutes after i traded it in on a used 63 rambler. But to this day i loved that car more dearly than any vehicle i've owned. AND that is something the Dishplayer has over tivo-----Charm :righton:


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## Augie #70

As a member of the camp of people who have owned both system's PVR I have to say that while I really liked my dish PVR's (and would blindly defend it against all others) when they worked and had they worked like they should have I would have never gone to the dark side. But they didn't work like they should have and I did switch and knowing what I now know about the DTivo's vs. my three old Dish PVR's I wish I had switched sooner. Didn't know what I was missing until I knew what the other side offered. 

One comment on suggestions and their impact, I have a modified DTivo with two 120GB (over 200 hrs recording capacity) HD's. If I left the suggestions on, it would fill up both drives with shows that it thought I'd like. Not a bad deal in and of itself but with such large capacity in storage space when those babies are filled up the speed of the DTivo really slows down. I turned off this feature as a result of this. On a normal DTivo the drive can fill up without any noticeable slowness. My other two DTivo's are unmodified.


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## Bill R

Inaba said:


> It's pointless to argue with Dish zealots. They can't see the forest for the trees, and they go so far as to tell you that you're obtuse for wanting additional features added to a product... It's all about passion, and there's no room for logic or common sense when arguing with people like that.


I agree with you 100 percent and it seems to be becoming a bigger problem on DBSTalk then any other board or DBS newsgroup that I post in. DISH owners post a LOT of misinformation (about the "other guys service or equipment") and only a few of us have the guts (or knowledge) to correct it (and the "misinformation" is especially true of the "dealers" that post here).

I sure would like to see a more balanced board and I sure wish that more people here would do their "homework" before they rag out the "other guy's" service or equipment (this goes for BOTH sides).


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## spanishannouncetable

Martyva said:


> i once had a 1956 austin healey 100. For those of you that remember, it was one of the last great english road cars. You set on a 2" pad that had about a one foot back, your feet extended down a tunnel with barely enough room to negotiate the pedals. It came with 15" spoke wheels and you could stick your arm out the window and touch the ground. in the 3 months, i had the car (i married) i had a major overhaul, a major tuneup and replaced the wiper blades. The top blew open at 50, so i left it down. On the way to replace the wiper blades at 70 with the top down in a snow storm with my ungloved hand wiping the snow off the windshield, the electric overdrive caught fire and smoke was billowing out from under the dash. The electric overdrive had a mind of its own, after that. The wiring was bad, the carpet on the firewall was falling dow. I did add door latches (i'd had the doors wired together. The exhaust system fell out of the car 30 minutes after i traded it in on a used 63 rambler. But to this day i loved that car more dearly than any vehicle i've owned. AND that is something the Dishplayer has over tivo-----Charm :righton:


 :rolling: 
I nominate this for post of the week ! Nice story, Marty.
First time i've ever seen "Dishplayer" and "charm" in the same sentence


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## Jacob S

I know and have posted on how the Tivo seems to have less reports of bugs (at least on here) and has more features and those that had Dish PVR and Tivo both seems to prefer the Tivo over the Dish PVR, so from what others have said and seeing the half an hour demonstration a year or two ago and what I have read, it looks like Tivo is a lot better product. Each PVR/PTV receiver has their own advantages.

I do not sell hardly any PVR units because I know of the bugs, problems, and that Tivo is better. I do mention the product though but consumers seem to not be willing to pay the extra money for the product.


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