# The Official "Throw in the Towel" on DLB thread.



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

As one of the handful of squeaky wheels out here on DLB, I am starting this thread to switch gears, throw in the towel, and declare that I do not expect DLB to come to the HR20, or any other new D* set top box within the next year. 

So the point of this thread is to start the discussion...

What will you do (if anything) if you concede DLB is not coming? Live with it and stop complaining? Switch services? Live with a work around?

Wait for an affordable alternative - then switch services? Why or why not? 

The usual disclaimers on any DLB thread apply here: We know that 25% of you could care less about DLB and some of you are down right happy its not a priority for D*. That's nice - please don't pollute the thread telling us how futile our "DLB love" is. 

75% of us think this is a really important feature and I am curious how those people will proceed knowing DLB just isn't coming to the HR20.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> As one of the handful of squeaky wheels out here on DLB, I am starting this thread to switch gears, throw in the towel, and declare that I do not expect DLB to come to the HR20, or any other new D* set top box within the next year.
> 
> So the point of this thread is to start the discussion...
> 
> ...


Keep my bedroom DirecTiVo on with two NFL Sunday Ticket games in the DLB while I watch the HR20 downstairs. If something happens in one of those games, I'll run upstairs and take a look.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Jay-You didn't mention how you voted. For me, it seems my second tuner is always doing something else anyway, at least that's the case during the hours I watch TV.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

Dang! I voted wrong.

DLB isn't coming: Its not a deal breaker for me.

I thought it said it *WAS* a deal breaker. Plus you need to also add my wife would kill me if it didn't have DLB.

I have to stick with it until FEB 2008 then, we will see then.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I still have hope. But I realize that SLB has to be perfect first. DLB on a system that still has SLB issues will only double or triple the problems, alas.

Now, if it ain't there by NFL SF time, I'm pluggin' the HR10 back into the primary TV place again!

Cheers,
Tom


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

MikeW said:


> Jay-You didn't mention how you voted. For me, it seems my second tuner is always doing something else anyway, at least that's the case during the hours I watch TV.


I mentioned in another thread that I am going to start opening my options up. I believe D* is the best TV service out there - but after using the Dual Live Buffers on my Series 2 for 3 or 4 years, whatever it was, that is just how I like to watch TV.

I have to seriously consider moving over to cable at this point. Right now is not that time to do that because the S3 TiVo is too expensive, and the Comcast Tivo doesn't officially exist yet.

I hate to leave D* - but I know my enjoyment of watching Television will improve greatly if I'm able to switch between tuners quickly and easily.

And for those of you who might ask - what did you do before that - the answer is simple: I didn't watch TV! Or rather - I watched it very infrequently. TiVo turned me back into a couch potato!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I don't mind dual buffers and hope it gets added but by no means is it #1 in any consideration of providers. Content is #1, DVR that works is #2. DirecTV provides both these for me. 
Perhaps since we record everything DLB just isn't an issue. And yes I live for Sunday Ticket. But I don't miss DLB with it. Just me though perhaps.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

As important as the feature is to me, as a displaced Yankee fan, I have to have MLB EI, and the cable company serving my area (insight), does not offer EI and hasn't for years. Insight is also about 30 or so dollars higher than D* for a comparable package.


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## sshams95 (Sep 2, 2006)

My plans are to get the HR20 once there is a significant increase in HD channels that suit my interests. And I will keep the HR10 for NFLST so I can use the DLB. It might be messy going back and forth....but as long as DTV has NFLST, I'll stick with them. In the meantime, we should continue to push DTV to get DLB's on the HR20. This thread sounds like a concession, unless I missed some important news on the matter.


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## sdk009 (Jan 19, 2007)

I am trying to get used to life without DLB. I'm not happy about it and if I knew then what I know now, I probably would have hung to the HR10-250 for as long as I could.


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## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

I think the wife misses it more than I do, and I miss it a lot!


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Maybe you guys will get lucky after they've finished all their VOD stuff, but for the time being:

*"Now is the winter of your discontent!"* :lol:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I'm keepin' the faith .. DLB in 2007.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

DBL isn't a deal breaker for me. It's a nice feature, but i can certainly live without it.

Hey Jay, at least you don't have to worry about getting on the roof if you swtich to cable. ;-).


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

sshams95 said:


> My plans are to get the HR20 once there is a significant increase in HD channels that suit my interests. And I will keep the HR10 for NFLST so I can use the DLB. It might be messy going back and forth....but as long as DTV has NFLST, I'll stick with them. In the meantime, we should continue to push DTV to get DLB's on the HR20. This thread sounds like a concession, unless I missed some important news on the matter.


It's my concession. I think its time to stop bugging D* about this and start asking the question - now what? I don't believe D* can make this feature happen. I *believe* the design of the HR20 is somehow standing in the way and a fix is beyond the scope/or capabilities of the programmers. Otherwise I think we would have it already. So if its a design issue - we may as well throw in the towel and ask what to do about it - if anything.

Part of my "concession" is that D* has remained silent. So as long as they do- I will assume there is no plan for it.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> DBL isn't a deal breaker for me. It's a nice feature, but i can certainly live without it.
> 
> Hey Jay, at least you don't have to worry about getting on the roof if you swtich to cable. ;-).


I'm guessing I have 3 or 4 more months (or more) before other alternatives are available. But I appreciate your concern.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

For those of you who are holding out hope - at what point will you admit/realize that its not going to happen? 

What will make you lose hope?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> For those of you who are holding out hope - at what point will you admit/realize that its not going to happen?
> 
> What will make you lose hope?


I know that DIRECTV has to launch VOD and for that the new GUI. So there is no chance for DLB before those big features are out at this point.

And until trickplay and SLB are solid, again, no real chance of DLB.

So to me, DLB hopes will remain alive until I see no activity after those milestones are reached.

Keep the hopes alive. If DIRECTV doesn't do it, someone will. And then DIRECTV will.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jay,





 .. Don't lose faith. :lol:


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

You needed an option for I think it's coming eventually.

I don't think it will be soon necessarily, but I think it's premature to say it's off the table altogether.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> As one of the handful of squeaky wheels out here on DLB, I am starting this thread to switch gears, throw in the towel, and declare that I do not expect DLB to come to the HR20, or any other new D* set top box within the next year.
> 
> So the point of this thread is to start the discussion...


*IT'S MY TOWEL AND I'M NOT LETTING GO........*

Seriously, I've stated before(remember...._get your salt shakers_) that I believe D* is still trying to get the *Single Live Buffer* working. Until it's flawless we'll never get *DLB*.

Mike


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## cnmsales (Jan 9, 2007)

Cant vote, no option for DLB is coming further down the road.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

cnmsales said:


> Cant vote, no option for DLB is coming further down the road.


I agree. D* will get the *Single Live Buffer *working and then get to *DLB*.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I don't mind dual buffers and hope it gets added but by no means is it #1 in any consideration of providers. Content is #1, DVR that works is #2. DirecTV provides both these for me.
> Perhaps since we record everything DLB just isn't an issue. And yes I live for Sunday Ticket. But I don't miss DLB with it. Just me though perhaps.


You're not the only one. I only watch (at most) 2 games, so just recording both and switching back and forth works fine for me so that I get to watch the two entire games.

So I _couln't care less_ (not "could care less" - a pet peeve of mine) about DLB's, but I honestly hope they do it for you guys. It's not like I have to use it. I just want trickplay fixed, CID fixed, and the 50 SL limit removed before they start working on it. IMHO.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> For those of you who are holding out hope - at what point will you admit/realize that its not going to happen?
> 
> What will make you lose hope?


When D* says *NO*. Until then I've got a death-grip on my towel. :box:

:bang

Mike


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

brott said:


> Jay,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


!rolling


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> *IT'S MY TOWEL AND I'M NOT LETTING GO........*
> 
> Seriously, I've stated before(remember...._get your salt shakers_) that I believe D* is still trying to get the *Single Live Buffer* working. Until it's flawless we'll never get *DLB*.
> 
> Mike


They have had 6 months to get the Single Buffer fixed. If its not fixed by now...

...and then you throw a whole new gui on top of it?

I can't see DLB coming in any less than a years time at this point. And that is optimistic.


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## keith_benedict (Jan 12, 2007)

I don't have a belief one way or another about whether or not DLB is coming. I do know that I'd prefer they make trickplay work as well as it worked on my Tivo before attacking DLB.

FWIW, I used DLB A LOT when I had my SD DirecTivo unit. Drove my wife bonkers! She's secretly happy that we no longer have DLB, but hates trickplay on the HR20.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

Sorry, but without CIR/autorecord, the whole thing is all but useless.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

islesfan said:


> Sorry, but without CIR/autorecord, the whole thing is all but useless.


Actually, DLB is about watching Live TV. This is probably the one area that CIR/autorecord really doesn't play a big part.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> ...and then you throw a whole new gui on top of it?


Do you mean for VOD?

Will the underlying code be rewritten for this? I kinda think the gui will be based on what already exists.

Just because it will look different doesn't mean what's underneath will be brand new. The wheel won't get any rounder.

Then again, I could be wrong.....

Mike


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Do you mean for VOD?
> 
> Will the underlying code be rewritten for this? I kinda think the gui will be based on what already exists.
> 
> ...


I really don't know much about the new gui - other than a few photos I have seen and that it is part of the VOD implementation. I simply assume - that with the new gui - will come more growing pains (bugs) and that will just push DLB out further.

By the time D* gets around to making DLB a priority they will likely save it for their next generation box. Which as far as I know - doesn't exist on any drawing board at the moment.

So if DLB is coming - great - but its not coming in less than a year.


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## sdk009 (Jan 19, 2007)

What, if any communication, has anyone received from D* about this issue? Have they even acknowledged that it is an issue, and are even thinking about offering a solution?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

sdk009 said:


> What, if any communication, has anyone received from D* about this issue? Have they even acknowledged that it is an issue, and are even thinking about offering a solution?


*THE SILENCE IS DEAFINING.*:bang


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

Its pretty obvious to me that DLB is not even on the radar considering all the other problems the coders are having with the HR20. Along with that, D* is more interested in creating new revenue streams ( nothing wrong with that, BTW) than giving some of us a feature that we very much want, but their current platform may very well not support. 
Now, I am not interested in ANY of the things D* is working on adding to the HR20, or for that matter most of the things it already does are useless to me, and I'd much rather have DLB, but what can I do? Until a viable alternative comes to my area, D* is the best choice. Actually it is the ONLY choice. E* doesn't impress me any more than D* does. And Charter Cable is a sick joke. So I pay a lot of money every month for something that isn't really what I want, but pretty much si the only option. :smoking:


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

I really thought I would miss the dual live buffers coming from a TiVo-exclusive environment ... but I don't. It's really OK. I'm not having withdrawal symptoms.

If I find myself in a situation where I -have- to watch two things at once, I just set them to record, and delete them when I'm done. No harm, no foul.

I have to say, I've been a -lot- happier with the HR20 than I expected. Very significantly happier. I love my TiVo's, but let's face facts, the HR10-250 was a DOG. It was SLOW. The HR20 isn't - it's a downright speed demon compared to the HR10.

I'm no longer afraid of it. The R15, on the other hand, seems a bit buggier, but still tolerable.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm still very content. I've got YES HD, and that's what really matters! 

--DM

p.s. I think the reason we haven't seen DLB's on the HR20 is because the engineers at DirecTV are still busy on Home Media Option (HMO) for the DirecTiVo's!


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## Mike P (Feb 10, 2007)

I love DLB when watching NFL Sunday Ticket, but what I do is put one of the buffers on The Red Zone Channel & the other on the main game that I'm watching (but that game changes time to time throughout the course of the 1pm & 4pm games).

Then I don't miss any of the scoring plays for fantasy football.

*I wonder how long Direct TV has a contract with NFL Sunday Ticket?*

I like using the Red, Green, Yellow, Blue buttons. But I really am considering getting a *Tivo Series 3* so that I can get my *Dual Live Buffers* back.

If Direct TV would just add DLB, basically 99% of my problems would be solved. 

...


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I like DLB. I would love to see DLB in the HR20 (and R15).

But...

Actions speak louder than words. I just disconnected my only DLB DVR (an R10) while keeping three non-DLB DVR's in service (an R15 and two HR20's). Obviously it isn't important enough for me to change providers.

Carl


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Mike P said:


> I wonder how long Direct TV has a contract with NFL Sunday Ticket?


The current contract expires in 2010, but don't think for a second that DirecTV won't renew it and keep it exclusive.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

If we get DLB great. But if we don't it is not the end of the world for me.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Mike P said:


> I love DLB when watching NFL Sunday Ticket, but what I do is put one of the buffers on The Red Zone Channel & the other on the main game that I'm watching (but that game changes time to time throughout the course of the 1pm & 4pm games).
> 
> Then I don't miss any of the scoring plays for fantasy football.
> 
> ...


So I have a much better solution for you.

I have my old DirecTivo I don't use much anymore tuned to the Red Zone channel. HR20 I use for flipping around between games.
Red Zone on the Tivo in a PIP. Can easily make it the main show if I want.

Problem solved. 

P.S. I don't miss any fantasy football plays because my live scoring module from my league web site announces all scoring plays as they happen, audio included. I've got no need for the red zone channel with that actually.


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## Drewg5 (Dec 15, 2006)

I liked the *DLB* isn't coming *GET OVER IT* option myself.. Granted it is nice to have, but not worth the whining, and crying. There are many more important things to in life, going out side, playing with the kids, losing all them piggy pounds, paying bills.

As a side note I highly doubt the HR20 has the processing power to do your beloved DLB.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> Live with it and stop complaining?


No. I will live without it for a while and never stop complaining. And when we get it I will move my complaining on to something else.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Drewg5 said:


> I liked the *DLB* isn't coming *GET OVER IT* option myself.. Granted it is nice to have, but not worth the whining, and crying. There are many more important things to in life, going out side, playing with the kids, losing all them piggy pounds, paying bills.
> 
> As a side note I highly doubt the HR20 has the processing power to do your beloved DLB.


?? If it can record two things at once and watch a previously recorded item, how would it not have the CPU power? If people can use a poor-mans DLB via dual recordings and the previous button, how can it not do DLB?

Ok so it has problems with SLB, but I don't really think those are CPU related so much as software that needs tightening up.

Cheers,
Tom


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## rlnoonan (Jan 6, 2007)

Drewg5 said:


> IAs a side note I highly doubt the HR20 has the processing power to do your beloved DLB.


What? It already is doing all the processing required when you are recording one channel and watching another. The only thing missing is a convenient way of allowing the user to move between those buffer, thus making them both "live".

I still have my SD Tivo and love the DLB on it. Not having it is one of the main things I hate about the HR20. Honestly though, I don't understand what is so difficult about implementing DLB. Think about the current workaround that most of us use: record one show, put the live buffer on a second show, and use the "prev" button to switch between the two buffers. The only thing keeping this from being a very acceptable substitute for DLB is that pausing the live buffer doesn't stick (it does for the recording buffer). If that worked then I wouldn't miss DLB nearly as much. Other than the inconvenience of deleting the recorded show it would essentially be the same.

So I say, come on D*, what is so hard about making the pause on live TV persistent? Make that small fix and you'd buy yourself quite a bit of time to work on DLB in the future.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> As one of the handful of squeaky wheels out here on DLB, I am starting this thread to switch gears, throw in the towel, and declare that I do not expect DLB to come to the HR20, or any other new D* set top box within the next year.
> 
> So the point of this thread is to start the discussion...
> 
> ...


I agree it could be an important feature (I'm in the 75% who responded to your initial poll), but I don't like false choices. (forced to decide between a few alternatives that don't necessarily reflect the "reality" of whether or not DLB will be included)

How about:

It may come, and I'll REALLY like it if it does. I see no reason to assume it isn't going to happen, it just hasn't happened yet. It's not like they don't have other things to work on.

or

Which is more important to me:

Media Server maintaining connection or DLB? (for me Media Server, which has nothing to do with being a DVR, but I'll use it a LOT more than DLB until football season )

or

DLB or Getting the Existing Features to Work Properly the Vast Majority of the Time? (for me, it's the latter, there are still a significant number of issues that need to be fixed BEFORE adding yet another feature that was never promised.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of DLB, but it is an "extra" until such time as the existing functions work very, very well. So far, a lot of things work pretty darn well...but there are still quite a few things that don't...and they need to, and before gumming up the works with "yet another feature". Fix the basics, then I'm prepared to be "wowed" by the extras, and DLB would be a nice one.

If we get confirmation that it isn't going to come, ever, then put me in the camp of: I'll get over it. I like the feature set I see so far, but there are items in this feature set that need to work or work much better than they do.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

rlnoonan said:


> So I say, come on D*, what is so hard about making the pause on live TV persistent? Make that small fix and you'd buy yourself quite a bit of time to work on DLB in the future.


If it was a small fix, it would already be there. You don't understand all of the intricacies involved in getting DLB into a receiver that wasn't designed for it. It's no small task.


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## rlnoonan (Jan 6, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> If it was a small fix, it would already be there. You don't understand all of the intricacies involved in getting DLB into a receiver that wasn't designed for it. It's no small task.


I wasn't talking about full DLB, I was just talking about making my pause of live TV stick.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

hasan said:


> ...
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of DLB, but it is an "extra" until such time as the existing functions work very, very well. So far, a lot of things work pretty darn well...but there are still quite a few things that don't...and they need to, and before gumming up the works with "yet another feature". Fix the basics, then I'm prepared to be "wowed" by the extras, and DLB would be a nice one.


One thing I will point out, which has been pointed out a few times before in other threads - DLB is a feature we have always had with D*. So I don't consider it an "extra" (which sounds too much like 'bonus'). I think D* seriously dropped the ball by not designing it into this receiver from the start. It was a downgrade, feature-wise.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

MikeW said:


> For me, it seems my second tuner is always doing something else anyway, at least that's the case during the hours I watch TV.


This seems to be the case in our house as well... Which really sucks sometimes when there's a 3rd show to be watched.... After I recover from the chunk Uncle Sam took out of me, I may have to get a 2nd HR20 so that I can watch/tape that 3rd program! It's especially annoying on Tuesdays & Thursdays when we've got several things taping and I want to watch the hockey game.... It's just not the same watching hockey on the 23" screen in the bedroom. I need my 46", dangit!

I used DLB quite a bit when I had it, and I miss it, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. Usually I'd use it when there was a hockey game going & the wife vetoed viewing of it. With DLB I could jump there between commercials to get updates... Now I just tape the game and zip through it after the fact...


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

rlnoonan said:


> I wasn't talking about full DLB, I was just talking about making my pause of live TV stick.


I see that my wording may have been unclear, but I was referring to pausing live TV.


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## jfm (Nov 29, 2006)

I didn't vote since the only choice is it will be soon or not at all. I'm hoping it will eventually come but D* needs to fix the existing problems first. My vote would be DLB will come in about a year.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Wow - if the percentages on this poll hold up, only 5% would bolt for DLB. That is VERY telling. 

I am curious about the 35% of you who are still hopeful (glass half full) that DLB is coming. 

What if it doesn't?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Drewg5 said:


> As a side note I highly doubt the HR20 has the processing power to do your beloved DLB.


I think your wrong about that. It has plenty of power. It does DLB now as a work around. You can record 2 _and _watch a third.

It just a matter of software and logistics. I believe that once they have a working(correctly) buffer, it's just a matter of programing. Also where it fits into the priority list. I don't doubt for a second that D* is looking at DLB and trying to decide _when _not if.



jaywdetroit said:


> Wow - if the percentages on this poll hold up, only 5% would bolt for DLB. That is VERY telling.
> 
> I am curious about the 35% of you who are still hopeful (glass half full) that DLB is coming.
> 
> What if it doesn't?


There is simply too many subs that want it. Assuming they still have to compete with Tivo, they will need the feature to be competitive. If they don't need to compete, then they'll already have the software they need.

Mike


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Bridges are meant to be crossed when we get to them. 

Like many people, I evaluate my possibilities as things evolve. I started BUD to get NFL ST (before D* picked it up), moved to D* when I moved and ST was here. If I become convinced DLB won't come via any D* DVRs and another solution to watching NFL becomes truly viable, I may switch to a provider with DLB.

Or if D* creates some other solution (like reducing the per receiver fees to compensate for lack of DLB), I'll take those into consideration as well. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> I think your wrong about that. It has plenty of power. It does DLB now as a work around. You can record 2 _and _watch a third.
> 
> It just a matter of software and logistics. I believe that once they have a working(correctly) buffer, it's just a matter of programing. Also where it fits into the priority list. I don't doubt for a second that D* is looking at DLB and trying to decide _when _not if.
> 
> ...


But this poll indicates that in fact they don't need DLB to compete with TiVo. Only 5% of responders have stated they will switch services because of this.

So if you are D* - who cares if 75% of your subs want it, they still aren't going to leave you to get it. Why put the resources into it?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Bridges are meant to be crossed when we get to them.
> 
> Or if D* creates some other solution (like reducing the per receiver fees to compensate for lack of DLB), I'll take those into consideration as well.
> 
> ...


Now that's an interesting idea. I would consider an additional reciever if the mirror fees were lower. Then DLB would almost be moot.

Of course, I'm still lazy at heart and just like hitting the down arrow and _*BAM*_....I'm there.

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> But this poll indicates that in fact they don't need DLB to compete with TiVo. Only 5% of responders have stated they will switch services because of this.
> 
> So if you are D* - who cares if 75% of your subs want it, they still aren't going to leave you to get it. Why put the resources into it?


The poll is based on subs who _already _have D*. Most wouldn't go through the trouble and expense to switch. The compitition would be for new subscribers. An area of growth that D* has been concerned about over the past few years.

Mike


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> But this poll indicates that in fact they don't need DLB to compete with TiVo. Only 5% of responders have stated they will switch services because of this.
> 
> So if you are D* - who cares if 75% of your subs want it, they still aren't going to leave you to get it. Why put the resources into it?


D* still wants to attract new customers. And higher paying ones at that. Ones I think are more likely to know about DLB and will let that influence the decision, even it isn't the dealbreaker for everyone already here.

And D* wants me to spend more money. But if I'm mildly upset cuz my HR20 doesn't do DLB, I'm thinking, "Hey honey, lets go out to see a movie", rather than buying VOD or more premiums. Sure, one person's example is pretty meaningless. But take that over 16M customers, if 1% cut back on their D* spending just a bit, that hurts.

And besides...who wants to be known as the company with a flagship DVR that can't do DLB. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> The poll is based on subs who _already _have D*. Most wouldn't go through the trouble and expense to switch. The compitition would be for new subscribers. An area of growth that D* has been concerned about over the past few years.
> 
> Mike


I seriously doubt MOST new subs would research whether or not D* has DLB before they signed up.

It would be one of those things you "notice" after you get the receiver.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> I seriously doubt MOST new subs would research whether or not D* has DLB before they signed up.
> 
> It would be one of those things you "notice" after you get the receiver.


That would depend on how the compitition markets their system. If Tivo were to push DLB, noting who does and doesn't have it, then D* would be forced to respond.

If I'm Tivo, I can see a whole marketing strategy for DLB as well as other features.

Mike


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> And besides...who wants to be known as the company with a flagship DVR that can't do DLB.


I think that is the one and only motivating factor for the coders to do it - and they are going to have a hard time selling that to the bean counters.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> If Tivo were to push DLB, noting who does and doesn't have it, then D* would be forced to respond.


They haven't marketed DLB in any way all these years, why would they start now?


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> That would depend on how the compitition markets their system. If Tivo were to push DLB, noting who does and doesn't have it, then D* would be forced to respond.
> 
> If I'm Tivo, I can see a whole marketing strategy for DLB as well as other features.
> 
> Mike


If TiVo cared about marketing, they would be giving away an S3 with HDTV purchases. They would be much more aggressive about getting that box into people's hands.

I've posted my conspiracy theory on this elsewhere:

D* to TiVo: Okay - we will continue to pay you your 20+ million per year in sub fees, you keep the price of your S3 artificially high so we don't lose subs.

TiVo isn't going to steal away customers from D* - they need D*.


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## missparker10 (Feb 15, 2007)

Voted I still have hope.

But it's not a dealbreaker for me if it doesn't. I prefer my DTV programming and prices. It's waaaay less than my local cable and I've tried Dish and hated it.

Yes, I'd like to have it but can live without it.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> They haven't marketed DLB in any way all these years, why would they start now?


I once went into the office of R&D for a golf club manufacturer (part of my senior ME project). There were literally hundreds of clubs, shafts, and heads in there. Club heads cross-sectioned in every way possible. 75% were the competitions equipment.

We know that D* watches/reads these threads. I'll bet my paycheck that the compitition does also. Markets & marketing evolve. The other guy's problems are your assets.

Mike


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> I've posted my conspiracy theory on this elsewhere:
> 
> D* to TiVo: Okay - we will continue to pay you your 20+ million per year in sub fees, you keep the price of your S3 artificially high so we don't lose subs.
> 
> TiVo isn't going to steal away customers from D* - they need D*.


That conspiracy theory isn't very well thought out. The price of the S3 isn't artificially high, and Tivo actually makes ~1200% more per sub per month from their own subs than they do from DirecTV's subs. They will steal away every sub they can from DirecTV.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> If TiVo cared about marketing, they would be giving away an S3 with HDTV purchases. They would be much more aggressive about getting that box into people's hands.
> 
> I've posted my conspiracy theory on this elsewhere:
> 
> ...


Rupert Murdoch/News Corp is a benevolant group not interested in *CRUSHING/AQUIRING THE COMPITITION* 

Sarcasm aside, D* is a business, Tivo is a business. Each will do what is necessary to keep and grow market share. That means getting as much of the new market and the market from the other guy as possible.

Mike


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> That conspiracy theory isn't very well thought out. The price of the S3 isn't artificially high, and Tivo actually makes ~1200% more per sub per month from their own subs than they do from DirecTV's subs. They will steal away every sub they can from DirecTV.


I don't tend to be either for or against conspiracies; there are times when I'm convinced there is one and times when I don't feel the evidence compellingly indicates. I agree with Jeremy W on this one. I think TiVo is desperately trying to survive and raising prices on both the upfront and the monthly ain't gonna do it, IMHO.

Cheers,
Tom


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

I voted I think it's coming....but I don't believe it's *soon*


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't tend to be either for or against conspiracies; there are times when I'm convinced there is one and times when I don't feel the evidence compellingly indicates. I agree with Jeremy W on this one. I think TiVo is desperately trying to survive and raising prices on both the upfront and the monthly ain't gonna do it, IMHO.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The price is artificially high. If they can afford to sell them to Retailers for $500.00 a piece - then they can afford to sell them to consumers for that much.

And $500 - is still too high.

I find it hard to believe that TiVo management thinks their best growth strategy is to raise prices. They do have shareholders to answer to- Is the collective that naive?


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> One thing I will point out, which has been pointed out a few times before in other threads - DLB is a feature we have always had with D*. So I don't consider it an "extra" (which sounds too much like 'bonus'). I think D* seriously dropped the ball by not designing it into this receiver from the start. It was a downgrade, feature-wise.


Not just a feature we had with D*, it is a standard feature with virtually every other provider's multi-tuner DVRs.

That I keep reading post saying how large a task it is to add it to a DVR that wasn't designed for it is purely D*'s fault. That DLBs are the number one feature on the things we want added, yet wasn't thought of when it was designed, speaks volumes of the effort, or lack thereof, in the marketing research that was done prior to the design.


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## ajsvmax (Jan 22, 2007)

I am definately a member Of the "better have this feature before the football season" club.
Drew


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

for the price of the new tivo you can have a couple of hrs and switch and progamable remote..
I have two hrs and with my setup I can do either 90 minute dlb or side by side and still have less than 800 in it


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

i'm lucky in that fios will be in my area by the end of the year and based on my research their pq is comparable to d* but even if they weren't i would probably switch to cable. this is just too large of an issue for me. d* dropped the ball big time on dlb and because of that i'm kind of looking forward to the phone call canceling my service with d*.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

If I want to be toggling between two live shows, I just set both of them to record and use the PREV button on the remote. Works nicely!

I could care less whether or not we get DLB.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

brittonx said:


> If I want to be toggling between two live shows, I just set both of them to record and use the PREV button on the remote. Works nicely!
> 
> I could care less whether or not we get DLB.


If you pause one show and flip to the other, the show you paused doesn't stay paused when you flip back, very poor workaround.


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

I realized DLB was NOT GOING TO HAPPEN anytime soon when I read that they were setting up to roll out VOD.

Over 70% of poll users wanted DLB and yet DirecTV was more interested in getting VOD out, which, comparatively, was not even close for the desire for DLB.

They just don't care. All these polls, feedback, CE betas...all don't mean anything if they don't actually care about giving the customer what they want.

And please save the BS excuses about how hard it is. It's sure as hell a lot easier than VOD.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

raott said:


> ... That DLBs are the number one feature on the things we want added, yet wasn't thought of when it was designed, speaks volumes of the effort, or lack thereof, in the marketing research that was done prior to the design.


*Dual Live Buffers - Toggle between two live shows with 30+ minute buffers on each* slipped to #2 a few weeks back.

*The ability to watch recordings when there's no satellite signal* is now the #1 most requested feature on the HR20 Wish List.


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

mr anderson said:


> I realized DLB was NOT GOING TO HAPPEN anytime soon when I read that they were setting up to roll out VOD.
> 
> Over 70% of poll users wanted DLB and yet DirecTV was more interested in getting VOD out, which, comparatively, was not even close for the desire for DLB.
> 
> ...


I believe how hard or easy to implement has much less to do with VOD implementation coming before DLB (if it comes at all) than potential profits do.
D* has been responsive to "wish list" items and when it's something they can do fairly easily with minimum resources involved then it's a no-brainer. The potential income from VOD will far outweigh any from new customers who want DLB.
They are after all in the business to make money and their priorities for features are going to be biased toward potential returns.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

SuperTech1 said:


> I believe how hard or easy to implement has much less to do with VOD implementation coming before DLB (if it comes at all) than potential profits do.
> D* has been responsive to "wish list" items and when it's something they can do fairly easily with minimum resources involved then it's a no-brainer. The potential income from VOD will far outweigh any from new customers who want DLB.
> They are after all in the business to make money and their priorities for features are going to be biased toward potential returns.


That is a very good observation and I think it bottom lines my thinking on this as well.

D* isn't going to put resources toward DLB - because it just isn't going to hit _their _bottom line one way or another - as this poll proves.

Their marketing people have probably known this all along.


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## sshams95 (Sep 2, 2006)

If I recall correctly, much earlier in the DLB debate, Earl had mentioned that there was a conversation at DTV regarding whether or not DLB should be included in the HR20 release. There were points and counterpoints he was privy too. I am very interested to know why DTV did not include DLB after their initial conversation and what those points/counterpoints are. If this is true and if my recollection is correct, this tells me that DLB can be added to the HR20 a lot easier than what some people are speculating.

Now if I'm wrong, then all of the above is mute. I'll try to find the link on the post.

I am not a HR20 owner. I strongly believe that the bugs should be worked out first before DLB is implemented, but, some type of communication should be handed out by DTV, one way or the other. Is silence truly golden?

PS...re: NFLST contract expires in 2010, I believe this will be DTV's toughest contract to renew since Murdoch had a lot of influence with the NFL to give DTV the exclusive contract. With Murdoch's interest in DTV expiring, I see the NFL perhaps leveling the playing field on this....IMO.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

sshams95 said:


> NFLST contract expires in 2010, I believe this will be DTV's toughest contract to renew since Murdoch had a lot of influence with the NFL to give DTV the exclusive contract. With Murdoch's interest in DTV expiring, I see the NFL perhaps leveling the playing field on this....IMO.


NFLST has been exclusive to DirecTV since 1994, which was way before News Corp even thought about buying DirecTV.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

sshams95 said:


> If I recall correctly, much earlier in the DLB debate, Earl had mentioned that there was a conversation at DTV regarding whether or not DLB should be included in the HR20 release. There were points and counterpoints he was privy too. I am very interested to know why DTV did not include DLB after their initial conversation and what those points/counterpoints are. If this is true and if my recollection is correct, this tells me that DLB can be added to the HR20 a lot easier than what some people are speculating.
> 
> Now if I'm wrong, then all of the above is mute. I'll try to find the link on the post.
> 
> ...


I'm not really sure it's all that hard to implement. I think that it's a matter of allocating resources.

They needed a non-Tivo box and were running out of time. I think the fact that the *Single Live Buffer* doesn't work says that *DLB* is a ways off.

I agree that VOD is the priority for D*. I don't think that they are ignoring the *DLB* issue but............

*IMHO*_ just an opinion...OK_

1. Get it out.
2. Increase the revenue stream.
3. _THEN_, make it better.

D*'s trying to get VOD(and other stuff) up to get the money flowing from the unit. As a business, they need to make money.

I'm ok with that. In the end it means better stuff and more content for me(in theory).:biggthump

However, D*'s having problems, either allocating resources to or just plain finding the problem, with *Single Live Buffer*. Either way without *Single Live Buffer* working correctly, there will be no *DLB*. Why talk about two of something when the first bites the big one.

Mike


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Not having DLB isn't going to hurt DirecTV at all. Just like not having Tivo isnt' going to hurt DirecTV at all.

People on this and other forums tend to forget, Joe Sixpack has no idea there even is DLB on the Tivo they already have! I have 8 friends that all had DirecTivo's. Only 2 even knew what DLBs was and only one of them ever used it. And this are all tech geeks.

And as this poll demonstrates, amoung even those dedicated people that know what DLBs are and have used them in the past only around 8% say they would leave if there were no DLBs and how many would actually do that, maybe half.

For the cost of a S3 I can have 2 HR20's tagged up with an old DirecTivo and I'll have quad live buffers and 6 total tuners. Seemless switching via a univeral remote like the MX-700 and I'm golden and have more functionality. 

But with all that said, I hope they can add DLBs for those that want it. Just so long as it doesn't tank the receiver.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Not having DLB isn't going to hurt DirecTV at all. Just like not having Tivo isnt' going to hurt DirecTV at all.


I agree...but only in the short term.

*IMHO*:

Sooner or later, the features any company can provide will be marketable items. Especially as more & more people get HDTV's. Also, the number of companies providing HD content continues to grow. They'll all want their piece of the pie. That means figuring out what people want.



bonscott87 said:


> People on this and other forums tend to forget, Joe Sixpack has no idea there even is DLB on the Tivo they already have! I have 8 friends that all had DirecTivo's. Only 2 even knew what DLBs was and only one of them ever used it. And this are all tech geeks.


True, but as with all new stuff, the marketing(and manuals) lags behind the market. Might have something to do with bean counters trying to figure out what buyers want, I don't know how the economics work.

I do know from my own experience that the basic level of understanding/knowledge the average user has grows with number of people using the technology.

My daughter has 3 MP3 players none of which is an IPod. However, she can tell me almost as much about how it works as she can hers. More importantly, she knows what cool things the IPod does that hers doesn't....which is sometimes a pain in my #*&.

A few years ago you say firewire or usb to someone and their looking at you like you're speaking in Latin. Now most people want as many connections for their stuff(camera, printers, etc) as they can get. *DLB* will be one of those kind of things. Sales curves for HDTV's are going vertical. People are wanting to know what their new _*superwampladyne*_ screens can show 'em. They'll want the DVR their Brother-in-law has. They'll want the upscaling DVD player until the HD ones become affordable. As the consumer get smarter, so will the marketing.



bonscott87 said:


> And as this poll demonstrates, amoung even those dedicated people that know what DLBs are and have used them in the past only around 8% say they would leave if there were no DLBs and how many would actually do that, maybe half.


Most people with stay with what they have. D* has had issues with flat growth, so they will have to market to new subs. How will depend on the compitition and users understanding on the technology involved. Soon, what we consider techie stuff, will be common features on boxes.



bonscott87 said:


> For the cost of a S3 I can have 2 HR20's tagged up with an old DirecTivo and I'll have quad live buffers and 6 total tuners. Seemless switching via a univeral remote like the MX-700 and I'm golden and have more functionality.
> 
> But with all that said, I hope they can add DLBs for those that want it. Just so long as it doesn't tank the receiver.


Do I understand you to say your MX-700 controls _2_ HR20's in the same room? That would be cool!! Or are you just comparing the two senerios.

Mike


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> she knows what cool things the IPod does that hers doesn't....which is sometimes a pain in my #*&.


What?  The iPod has one of the shortest feature lists of any MP3 player. If there is something that the iPod does that your daughter's MP3 player doesn't do, she's got a seriously crappy MP3 player.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> What?  The iPod has one of the shortest feature lists of any MP3 player. If there is something that the iPod does that your daughter's MP3 player doesn't do, she's got a seriously crappy MP3 player.


No, it isn't really that much different but "_everyone else has one_".

I've given up trying to figure out teenaged girls....and women for that matter. It hurts my head too much :bang

Mike


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> NFLST has been exclusive to DirecTV since 1994, which was way before News Corp even thought about buying DirecTV.


Actually NFL ST was on BUD for 1 or 2 years before D* picked it up and C-band users had it until just a few years ago. Even tho I lived just a few miles away from where Thomson introduced DSS, I went BUD. I had to have NFL ST.

When I moved, I left BUD behind and have been D* ever since.

Cheers,
Tom


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Not having DLB isn't going to hurt DirecTV at all. Just like not having Tivo isnt' going to hurt DirecTV at all.
> 
> People on this and other forums tend to forget, Joe Sixpack has no idea there even is DLB on the Tivo they already have! I have 8 friends that all had DirecTivo's. Only 2 even knew what DLBs was and only one of them ever used it. And this are all tech geeks.


Sound like a bunch of morons to me....


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually NFL ST was on BUD for 1 or 2 years before D* picked it up and C-band users had it until just a few years ago.


Tibbs - thanks for reminding me that I'm getting old enough to remember all this stuff...  :lol:


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> What?  The iPod has one of the shortest feature lists of any MP3 player. If there is something that the iPod does that your daughter's MP3 player doesn't do, she's got a seriously crappy MP3 player.


He said "cool things," not features. Sure the iPod doesn't have a radio for example, but the things it does do, it does better (and cooler) than any other mp3 player I've played with.

(Sorry to get off topic)

Okay, I'll get back on topic. Just to add to what bonscott said, and I've said this before, but if you are using DLB's to jump between more than 2 games, why not get another DVR? If I watch a football game, I want to watch every play, that's why I record both games and watch both complete games. With 2 HR20's, you could record and watch 4 complete games.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

mr anderson said:


> Sound like a bunch of morons to me....


Um...what???? :scratch:

Who in particular? Not sure what you mean.

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> He said "cool things," not features. Sure the iPod doesn't have a radio for example, but the things it does do, it does better (and cooler) than any other mp3 player I've played with.
> 
> (Sorry to get off topic)
> 
> Okay, I'll get back on topic. Just to add to what bonscott said, and I've said this before, but if you are using DLB's to jump between more than 2 games, why not get another DVR? If I watch a football game, I want to watch every play, that's why I record both games and watch both complete games. With 2 HR20's, you could record and watch 4 complete games.


If I get another box, then I need a multiswitch more cables not to mention remote issues.

And oh yeah....Not sure I could sell my wife on any of that. :lol:

Ultimately, I would love that have that kind of setup. *DLB* or not, sooner or later I'll get another DVR (probably later).

Mike


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mr anderson said:


> Sound like a bunch of morons to me....


Why? Don't need DLB to record American Idol or Lost every week. That's what most people use a DVR for, a VCR replacement. Most just don't know you can go beyond that.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

MicroBeta said:


> Do I understand you to say your MX-700 controls _2_ HR20's in the same room? That would be cool!! Or are you just comparing the two senerios.
> 
> Mike


Sure. Once you setup the second HR20 on a different remote code then you learn all the codes to another device on the MX-700, just like you would a Tivo, VCR, etc. Since both "remotes" send different IR codes you're all set. I did the same when I had 2 DirecTivo's on my main TV plus an old Hughes HD receiver. Had 3 DirecTV receivers together. I've got macros programmed so if you wanted to watch HD you just pressed a button and it would switch the TV input, switch the A/V receiver and so forth. Very WAF friendly.

So for football I can setup a separate "Sunday Ticket" device with various marcos as needed for 2 different receivers and PIP off the TV. You're only bounded by your imagination.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Sure. Once you setup the second HR20 on a different remote code then you learn all the codes to another device on the MX-700, just like you would a Tivo, VCR, etc. Since both "remotes" send different IR codes you're all set. I did the same when I had 2 DirecTivo's on my main TV plus an old Hughes HD receiver. Had 3 DirecTV receivers together. I've got macros programmed so if you wanted to watch HD you just pressed a button and it would switch the TV input, switch the A/V receiver and so forth. Very WAF friendly.
> 
> So for football I can setup a separate "Sunday Ticket" device with various marcos as needed for 2 different receivers and PIP off the TV. You're only bounded by your imagination.


I think I'm missing something...(not to unusual). I can set the HR20 to a different set of IR codes to control all the same functions?

The list button on RC34-a will output a different code than RC34-b(a&b for clarity not model number)?

Mike


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually NFL ST was on BUD for 1 or 2 years before D* picked it up and C-band users had it until just a few years ago.


I know, but I don't even count BUD because it's such a miniscule market. The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Sunday_Ticket) says that when NFLST launched in 1994 it was available on DirecTV at that time.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

MicroBeta said:


> I think I'm missing something...(not to unusual). I can set the HR20 to a different set of IR codes to control all the same functions?
> 
> The list button on RC34-a will output a different code than RC34-b(a&b for clarity not model number)?
> 
> Mike


I think it's in the manual as well as in the remote setup screens how to do it. There are only 2 different IR codes for the HR20 however, I believe Tivo had 9.

I think with the DirecTV remote you'd switch to AV1 or something to control the second HR20.
So you learn the codes for the first one, switch the slider for the second one and learn those codes. They are totally different. I think there was a thread some while back about setting up 2 HR20s in the same room.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> I think it's in the manual as well as in the remote setup screens how to do it. There are only 2 different IR codes for the HR20 however, I believe Tivo had 9.
> 
> I think with the DirecTV remote you'd switch to AV1 or something to control the second HR20.
> So you learn the codes for the first one, switch the slider for the second one and learn those codes. They are totally different. I think there was a thread some while back about setting up 2 HR20s in the same room.


It never occured to me that the universal remote would have multiple codes for the primary device. I does make sense that it would.

Thanks
Mike


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Yep thats how mine are setup.. I can pause one switch to the other with one button and back...  And with my rf mods for the rest of the house I can use my "side by side" mode on my tv to have both displayed...


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Yep thats how mine are setup.. I can pause one switch to the other with one button and back...  And with my rf mods for the rest of the house I can use my "side by side" mode on my tv to have both displayed...


It doesn't get any cooler than that.

Now, how to get the wife to let me get another HR20.......

Mike


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> I know, but I don't even count BUD because it's such a miniscule market. The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Sunday_Ticket) says that when NFLST launched in 1994 it was available on DirecTV at that time.


Guess we'll have to update Wikipedia then, because NFLST was definitely NOT available on anything but BUD. I researched, asked, and one of the DSS salesmen pleaded with his uppers to get it. And later, they did. "Let There Be Football!"

And before D*, E*, Prime*, there were millions of BUDs. (Granted just a few millions, but it was by no means minuscule.) Nowadays, it is almost non-existent, but not completely dead yet.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Drewg5 (Dec 15, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> ?? If it can record two things at once and watch a previously recorded item, how would it not have the CPU power? If people can use a poor-mans DLB via dual recordings and the previous button, how can it not do DLB?
> 
> Ok so it has problems with SLB, but I don't really think those are CPU related so much as software that needs tightening up.
> 
> ...


I am using a thought path here.. Yes you can record 2 shows at the same time and watch a recored show all at the same time. What I (and others) have seen is this, while recording 2 shows any key press makes a bad spot in the recordings, asking the system to do more and getting errors in the recordings could be cpu to slow, memory issues, or bad firmware (in this case). General system slowness be it the firmware or the system its self I can only speculate that its related to the cpu, or gpu. I would love to see the full console logs for this system, I wonder how many errors are logged in there if any.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

*What the.........*

Oh wait, there it is!!!

For a second there I thought I lost my towel.

:blackeye:

Mike


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

While I appreciate everyone's help to deliver other solutions to this issue, I just don't see why I should HAVE to do any of that to makeup for a feature D* should have had in there from the beginning. While I don't really want to bring up old history, if we had a box that could do this from the start, just as every other DVR on the market, then this wouldn't even be an issue. Don't get me wrong I really appreciate the workarounds people offer, but its just frustrating because those of us wanting DLB shouldn't need multiple boxes, etc. just to have a feature included in every other box on the market. Ok, I've said what I needed to say. Sorry for the rant!


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> While I appreciate everyone's help to deliver other solutions to this issue, I just don't see why I should HAVE to do any of that to makeup for a feature D* should have had in there from the beginning. While I don't really want to bring up old history, if we had a box that could do this from the start, just as every other DVR on the market, then this wouldn't even be an issue. Don't get me wrong I really appreciate the workarounds people offer, but its just frustrating because those of us wanting DLB shouldn't need multiple boxes, etc. just to have a feature included in every other box on the market. Ok, I've said what I needed to say. Sorry for the rant!


If D* provided the extra box without a box fee, and then installed SWM in my house so I didn't have to run 4 wires, I would probably be satisfied until they could get DLB worked into the HR20 or a newer receiver.

But that solution doesn't really cut it if you have to pay for the extra box.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> If D* provided the extra box without a box fee, and then installed SWM in my house so I didn't have to run 4 wires, I would probably be satisfied until they could get DLB worked into the HR20 or a newer receiver.
> 
> But that solution doesn't really cut it if you have to pay for the extra box.


Wait. You're seriously saying that DLB is better than 4 tuners?!?! I don't get that logic at all. Of course, 4 tuners in one box is better and more convenient than 4 tuners in 2 boxes, but I don't say how you could say DLB is better than 4 tuners (assuming no extra costs).


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jaywdetroit said:


> If D* provided the extra box without a box fee, and then installed SWM in my house so I didn't have to run 4 wires, I would probably be satisfied until they could get DLB worked into the HR20 or a newer receiver.
> 
> But that solution doesn't really cut it if you have to pay for the extra box.


If there were no mirror fee for this I would try it. Not quite a substitute for *DLB*. Ya have to switch TV inputs vs tuners but almost the same.

Could be a pain keeping the settings the same.

However, it would, _technically_ double the SL limit.

Mike


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## sshams95 (Sep 2, 2006)

If you hook up two HR20's via HDMI, can you PIP on your HDTV? I thought you couldn't PIP two high def video sources.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Wait. You're seriously saying that DLB is better than 4 tuners?!?! I don't get that logic at all. Of course, 4 tuners in one box is better and more convenient than 4 tuners in 2 boxes, but I don't say how you could say DLB is better than 4 tuners (assuming no extra costs).


I said it wasn't a solution to DLB - I really did not consider whether or not it was "better". But to answer your question - no I don't think it's better. I don't really want 2 TV boxes sitting in my living room. Especially 2 boxes that run 120-130 degrees. (And before you ask, no I do not have DVD player, or an A/V receiver where my HR20 is. I have the HR20 and a computer with a speaker system.)

- I would have to buy a custom remote - that sucks. 
- It's overkill (for me). 
- It's constantly changing the display selection on my TV, which is slow.
- Again - I either have to run 4 wires, or install SWM.

I just can't think of any reason I would prefer to have 2 boxes INSTEAD of DLB. So whether you see the logic in my _opinion_ is irrelevant.

All that hardware, and effort *vs. *The equivalent to a "Live TV" button - No contest for me - sorry.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

sshams95 said:


> If you hook up two HR20's via HDMI, can you PIP on your HDTV? I thought you couldn't PIP two high def video sources.


You can't on my TV - and PIP is not a substitute for DLB.

THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR DLB. NONE.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> You can't on my TV - and PIP is not a substitute for DLB.
> 
> THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR DLB. NONE.


Besides, I want QLB if I've got 2 HR20s... 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Besides, I want QLB if I've got 2 HR20s...


I'm waiting for the HMC with OLB!


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> I'm waiting for the HMC with OLB!


Jeremy, given your avatar... 

But wouldn't that be totally perfect on NFL Sundays! "Let There Be Football!"

Cheers,
Tom


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

I am really surprised that over 35% believe the DLB is coming SOON. 

I should have defined what soon was in the poll. When I think of soon - I think of less than 3 months. 

Do that many of you believe this is coming in that time frame?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

With new GUI and VOD coming in roughly two months (as scheduled and announced via press release), two to three months would be the earliest, assuming GUI and VOD go smoothly. So I guess I can see it coming "soon" by your definition.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Besides, I want QLB if I've got 2 HR20s...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Since we're dreaming...........

What about the OTA tuners....._*Octal-Live Buffers*_ :uglyhamme

Mike


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> I said it wasn't a solution to DLB - I really did not consider whether or not it was "better". But to answer your question - no I don't think it's better. I don't really want 2 TV boxes sitting in my living room. Especially 2 boxes that run 120-130 degrees. (And before you ask, no I do not have DVD player, or an A/V receiver where my HR20 is. I have the HR20 and a computer with a speaker system.)
> 
> - I would have to buy a custom remote - that sucks.
> - It's overkill (for me).
> ...


Fair enough. For me, I'm always coming from the perspective of never watching live tv and only watching things recorded. 4 tuners would allow you to record and watch 4 complete games. With DLB, you can jump around between more than 2 games, but you will never see every play of more than 2 games. Yes, it's more complicated than having DLB, but for me, it's much better. (In fact I have two receivers hooked up to my tv, but ones an R10)


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## waynebtx (Dec 24, 2006)

No vote. There is no selection for dont care. something i would problem never use i dont watch sports so could care less.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> Fair enough. For me, I'm always coming from the perspective of never watching live tv and only watching things recorded. 4 tuners would allow you to record and watch 4 complete games. With DLB, you can jump around between more than 2 games, but you will never see every play of more than 2 games. Yes, it's more complicated than having DLB, but for me, it's much better. (In fact I have two receivers hooked up to my tv, but ones an R10)


I don't watch that much sports. Or rather - I don't watch that much sports simultaneously. (If I watching the Tigers, I would use DLB to watch something other than baseball on the other channel.) In fact I didn't use DLB for sports except for a season in which I played Fantasy Football and had ST.

Its not a matter of how many sports I can watch at once - its a matter of NOT WATCHING ANY BLEEPIN Commercials! Watch something on one channel and surf on the other - or watch two shows. I don't need 4 tuners for that.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> I don't watch that much sports. Or rather - I don't watch that much sports simultaneously. (If I watching the Tigers, I would use DLB to watch something other than baseball on the other channel.) In fact I didn't use DLB for sports except for a season in which I played Fantasy Football and had ST.
> 
> Its not a matter of how many sports I can watch at once - its a matter of NOT WATCHING ANY BLEEPIN Commercials! Watch something on one channel and surf on the other - or watch two shows. I don't need 4 tuners for that.


That is exactly right! Its mostly about NOT wanting to watch any commercials. And back to hooking up another receiver for a sec., I agree that would be overkill. Don't forget about the extra HDMI or component hook-up that would be needed. Unless I was to purchase a new AV Receiver I'm maxed out on my HD hook-ups, which means this solution wouldn't be available to me either.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

jaywdetroit said:


> Its not a matter of how many sports I can watch at once - its a matter of NOT WATCHING ANY BLEEPIN Commercials! Watch something on one channel and surf on the other - or watch two shows. I don't need 4 tuners for that.


Ummm, if you record the shows you can watch whenever with no commercials. 

I never watch commercials either. Record everything, it's a DVR afterall. 

I stopped watching Live TV with my first Tivo 7 years ago. Never looked back. It always suprised me that people with a DVR still watch live TV. Not saying there is anything wrong with it, but still suprises me. Outside of sports like Sunday Ticket.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

I can see us falling into the old "why do we need DLB" argument here. I think we should save that for one of the other threads:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=78337

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=75735


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I know. Just bustin' on ya. Everyone uses DVRs differently and everyone watches TV differently. And we all tend to forget that from time to time.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I think that given the documented issues with SLB, that DLB would be a pretty poor bet. I want it, sure, but I'm focussed on other, hopefully more achievable goals:

-VOD
-Quick Access to CC
-CIR


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

lamontcranston said:


> I think that given the documented issues with SLB, that DLB would be a pretty poor bet. I want it, sure, but I'm focussed on other, hopefully more achievable goals:
> 
> -VOD
> -Quick Access to CC
> -CIR


I think D* is probably on the same page as you. At least VOD & CIR. I would like to think they are looking at CC but it might be, not quite a back....maybe a side burner.

D* only has only a certain amount of programing resources. I'm afraid that revenue streams come first. 

Meanwhile we'll just keep pluggin' away..............:beatdeadhorse: :bang

Mike

---maybe we should find out what the _Shadow Knows_


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

I don't know why - but all this time has gone by and I never even thought about checking Dish Network's HD DVR out. 

IT DOES DLB. Why didn't you guys tell me???? :shrug:


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> Why didn't you guys tell me????


Because this is the DirecTV forum...


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

SLB or DLB? Don't guess I have really cared. I was just happy not having to buy anymore VHS tapes.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

DLBs to me is like learning Unix in the Marine Corps. I was a computer tech and was told I needed to learn Unix. For a while it was the greatest thing in the world and actually preferred using it to Windows. After I got out though I hardly ever touched a Unix console anymore. I got used to Windows again and after a while my thoughts were, "Unix is nice, but the way I'm doing things now works well too". DLB is nice to have and if it comes out, great. But I'm no longer as attached to DLB the same way I am no longer attached to TiVo. If we get it, great. I'll still hold out hope. 

What pretty much saved me is the fantasy player tracking we had last season. That was probably my #1 reason for buffers. I could watch my Lions lose 13 games a season in beautiful HD while tracking my players on the other tuner. Now I can watch my Lions lose SIX GAMES (someone write that down so I can eat my words later) and not have to change channels because my stats pop up at the bottom of the screen.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Spanky_Partain said:


> SLB or DLB? Don't guess I have really cared. I was just happy not having to buy anymore VHS tapes.


Do you really not care about *Single Live Buffer*? Without it there is not pausing/rewinding live TV.

Mike


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

tfederov said:


> Now I can watch my Lions lose SIX GAMES (someone write that down so I can eat my words later)


That actually made me laugh out loud. The Lions are hopeless.

You're prediction is noted though.


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## shmengie (Apr 12, 2007)

i've only had my hr20 for about 2 weeks. the first 2 days were spent finding this forum (referred by tivocommunity.com) and searching for 'buffer'. seriously. i knew going in that there was no dlb, but figured there was a s-p-s code or _something_. i found the record-pause-switch trick in the tips-n-tricks pdf, but that seems like a lot of trouble.

so here it is, 2 weeks into my hd/hr20 experience and you know what? the dlb (or lack thereof) thing doesn't really bother me that much. as a matter of fact, i find myself wondering what the hell i ever used it for! of course, if it ever comes to the hr20, i'll probably ask how the hell i ever lived without it!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

MicroBeta said:


> Do you really not care about *Single Live Buffer*? Without it there is not pausing/rewinding live TV.
> 
> Mike


What is the SLB issue? I can pause and rewind live TV any time I want.  I've done it just last week during a hockey game. Is there a bug I'm missing?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tfederov said:


> What pretty much saved me is the fantasy player tracking we had last season. That was probably my #1 reason for buffers. I could watch my Lions lose 13 games a season in beautiful HD while tracking my players on the other tuner. Now I can watch my Lions lose SIX GAMES (someone write that down so I can eat my words later) and not have to change channels because my stats pop up at the bottom of the screen.


Same here (except GO BEARS!)

FYI that if your fantasy league is on MyFantasyLeague.com then you can have the GameDay application running (say on a laptop right next to my easy chair) and it will announce all fantasy plays including audio "Kitna 65 TD pass to Roy Williams, kick is good". As well as live fantasy scores across all your leagues. It's pretty slick.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> What is the SLB issue? I can pause and rewind live TV any time I want.  I've done it just last week during a hockey game. Is there a bug I'm missing?


I have a post about this issue.(some might say rant)
_link_ - http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=84453

The buffer has habit of clearing. If I watch something recorded and go back to live TV, the buffer has cleared. I really think this is part of the reason D* hasn't said boo about *DLB*. The *SLB* doesn't work correctly, so how can they address two if one is buggy.

Mike


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## KSbugeater (Feb 17, 2005)

Do all cable companies' HD DVRs have DLBs?

Also, the SD Dish DVR my parents have only has DLBs if you get up from your chair and switch it to "Single Room Mode" on the box face. It also does not hold your place when pause a buffer and switch to the other like the TiVo does. I have not experienced the 622, so I have no idea if it does DLB exactly like the TiVos.


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

I voted #6!!

Like my daughter often tells me:: *"BUILD A BRIDGE & GET OVER IT"*

Besides if you need DLB that much, you can always get another rcvr!


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

iceman2a said:


> I voted #6!!
> 
> Like my daughter often tells me:: *"BUILD A BRIDGE & GET OVER IT"*
> 
> Besides if you need DLB that much, you can always get another rcvr!


What D* HD receiver would you recommend that gets MPEG4 channels as well as the regular HD channels?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> What D* HD receiver would you recommend that gets MPEG4 channels as well as the regular HD channels?


The HR20 and the H20 are your choices there.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> What D* HD receiver would you recommend that gets MPEG4 channels as well as the regular HD channels?


2 HR-20  Thats what I have


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

tiger2005 said:


> What D* HD receiver would you recommend that gets MPEG4 channels as well as the regular HD channels?


Oh! I don't know, maybe another HR20!

2 HR20's = DLB!!!!


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Jayw already established MULTIPLE reasons on why this isn't an acceptable alternative for most people. And 2 HR20's does NOT equal DLB's.

Most of us would not want to run 4 lines to two receivers. Some will not have enough HD inputs to handle the extra receiver. $$$ would also be a consideration. Etc., Etc.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> Jayw already established MULTIPLE reasons on why this isn't an acceptable alternative for most people. And 2 HR20's does NOT equal DLB's.
> 
> Most of us would not want to run 4 lines to two receivers. Some will not have enough HD inputs to handle the extra receiver. $$$ would also be a consideration. Etc., Etc.


I gather that once an opinion is formed, most are going to resist changing it. If 2 receivers work for them, I'm happy for them. They won't buy into the DLB thing though.

And frankly - bad as a solution that it is, its going to be the only one for a LOOOONG time if you want DLB functionality.

DLB ISN'T COMING

(bump)


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> I gather that once an opinion is formed, most are going to resist changing it. If 2 receivers work for them, I'm happy for them. They won't buy into the DLB thing though.
> 
> And frankly - bad as a solution that it is, its going to be the only one for a LOOOONG time if you want DLB functionality.
> 
> ...


Believe me, I hear ya. I wish it wasn't true, but I really think it is. The thing that really upsets me however is that D* hasn't said anything about it. They know it won't happen, but they continue to string the DLB followers along with, 'We'll look at it'. It seems that D*'s customer service hasn't improved as much as they would like everyone to believe.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

We'll just need to see what Liberty does.

Methinks D* (NewsCorp) is really busy with VOD right now because it's a revenue generator.

After that, who knows?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

tiger2005 said:


> Believe me, I hear ya. I wish it wasn't true, but I really think it is. The thing that really upsets me however is that D* hasn't said anything about it. They know it won't happen, but they continue to string the DLB followers along with, 'We'll look at it'. It seems that D*'s customer service hasn't improved as much as they would like everyone to believe.


I've said it before but it bares repeating...........

*All of the following is just IMHO with nothing to back it up so get out your salt shakers.*

It says alot that D* has been silent on *DLB*. They have had more problems with getting the *Single Live Buffer* working let alone addressing *DLB*. This is _why_ they're not saying word one about *DLB*. They know that current buffer doesn't work correctly so ignore the question until it does. Without a working live buffer the HR20 is little more than a _cable box and a VCR_. With D* trying to get the _revenue stream_ featrues working the buffers are kinda on the side burners. I do believe that they are thinking/talking about it internally but we'll have to suffer the silence until things like VOD are up and running.

Mike


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> I've said it before but it bares repeating...........
> 
> *All of the following is just IMHO with nothing to back it up so get out your salt shakers.*
> 
> ...


I have to say that I hope you're right, but I just don't see DLB coming to this box. If it hasn't been done on the R15 yet, I see no reason to think it would be done on the HR20. D* just doesn't feel that this feature is important enough, hence why it wasn't included on the box from the beginning.

Since my last post I've been checking out the TiVo S3 on Tivocommunity and CNET and I have to admit that I REALLY miss my TiVo. So much so in fact that I'm actually excited to think about switching services and getting an S3. I think that I wanted the HR20 to be successful so much that I forgot how great a TiVo actually is. That being said, I'll try and continue to be patient by giving D* another year, but if they haven't implemented DLB by then I'm paying the cancellation fee and I'm gone.


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## IndyTom (Dec 8, 2006)

Sorry to jump in late with a "newbie" question!

Any chance the DLB is patented by Tivo and D* can't legally have it?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

IndyTom said:


> Sorry to jump in late with a "newbie" question!
> 
> Any chance the DLB is patented by Tivo and D* can't legally have it?


Not patented.

Mike


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Not patented.
> 
> Mike


I admire all you fine folks for keeping faith alive but I don't think DLB is going to happen any time soon. Do I know this for sure? NO, but I have a feeling it will be a very long while or not at all. 

Never had DLB so I technically don't know what I'm missing.


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## 1953 (Feb 7, 2006)

What is DLB? 

I know, I know, I was standing in the closet with a bucker over my head when the good Lord gave out brains.

llllllllllllllLouisp


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

1953 said:


> What is DLB?
> 
> I know, I know, I was standing in the closet with a bucker over my head when the good Lord gave out brains.
> 
> llllllllllllllLouisp


*Dual Live Buffers*

Buffering the channel the tuner has on. the HR20 only buffers the channel you are watching. Tivo buffers whatever channel in on both tuners.

Mike


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

What most people do with DLB



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

And, since NFLST is the only reason many folks are with D*, you'd think they'd implement it. Perhaps before Labor Day?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> And, since NFLST is the only reason many folks are with D*, you'd think they'd implement it. Perhaps before Labor Day?


Remember there are only 2 million or so Sunday Ticket subs and many of them don't have a DVR. 16 million subs total.

Cross section of total subs with Sunday Ticket, that have a DVR and even know what DLBs is would be pretty small. Under half million perhaps.

Again it comes down to the question: How many people would leave over not having DLBs. Not that many. Even if 20,000 did, they'll sign that many new people up in a couple weeks. It's just a bump on their radar. It's similar to the debate on how many people will leave if there is no Tivo. Again, even if it's large, as in 50,000...they'll sign that many new subs up very quickly.

Basically it just doesn't matter to the bottom line. It really doesn't. So they weigh the cost of trying to impliment DLB or the cost of keeping Tivo vs. how many people will leave becuase either or both are no longer available. If the cost of losing those people was higher you can bet they would have made an effort on the other way.

Again, I hope they get DLBs for you guys, I really do. But DirecTV isn't going to die if they don't offer DLBs. Far from it. People just need to realize that.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

I don't watch that much sports. The way I use DLB is I find one channel (CNN, most of the time) and keep it on that tuner then surf on the other. The wife use it with soaps. So it's not just for sports.

I just don't understand why it is not on there anyways. *It's on most other DVR already. *Why not just put it on there. It's not like someone going to say "Hey this DVR has DLB I don't want that cancel my account please"

[edit] I think the cost to keep Tivo (or was) $1 per account. Again It doesn't have to be Tivo for me. If the HR20 had a pause point that worked and DLB with no/few bugs. I'm there!


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Remember there are only 2 million or so Sunday Ticket subs and many of them don't have a DVR. 16 million subs total.
> 
> Cross section of total subs with Sunday Ticket, that have a DVR and even know what DLBs is would be pretty small. Under half million perhaps.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I think that's understated. If you lose 20,000 A List customers (Most Sunday Ticket customers are, meaning have large monthly bills) when you are making a push to GAIN A list customers, that would be a strong signal to me that I wasn't doing something right. Also, losing 20,000 A list customers and gaining 20,000 lower tier (C) customers, will most certainly impact the bottom line. It may not be huge, but over time it will show.

Don't forget that with TelCo's beginning to get into the game satellite's competition has only intensified. If I was them, I would want to hold on to as many customers as I possibly could. If DLB would keep 20k in customers, IMO the opportunity cost would be well worth it.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> Honestly, I think that's understated. If you lose 20,000 A List customers (Most Sunday Ticket customers are, meaning have large monthly bills) when you are making a push to GAIN A list customers, that would be a strong signal to me that I wasn't doing something right. Also, losing 20,000 A list customers and gaining 20,000 lower tier (C) customers, will most certainly impact the bottom line. It may not be huge, but over time it will show.
> 
> Don't forget that with TelCo's beginning to get into the game satellite's competition has only intensified. If I was them, I would want to hold on to as many customers as I possibly could. If DLB would keep 20k in customers, IMO the opportunity cost would be well worth it.


To put some numbers to your thought:

Since you are talking about A list customers, assume they average an 85 dollar a month bill.

At that price: 20,000 customers is just over 20 million a year in revenue. Even if that is a small slice of change compared to D*'s over all Yearly Revenue. It's still not chump change.


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## Borgskier (Apr 24, 2007)

DLB doesn't seem like a big issue to me because I've never had a dual tuning DVR before. The HR20 really misses on a lot of the features of a good DVR - like reliably giving a good picture and working intuitivly with good response to input. My Pioneer (TIVO based) and Sony (TV Guide based) DVRs blow the HR20 out of the water on usability, reliability and quality of picture. D* is wrong to not have a good platform or interface with a DVR that is a good platform. The DLB issue just adds to the lost opportunity.


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## microbob (Apr 26, 2007)

I gotta say, it is going to be a deal breaker for me. I'm completely SHOCKED to find this feature missing. The wife is kicking me in the butt over this as we both used this feature heavily in our Series 2 Tivos.

Does DishNetowrk's HD DVRs have this feature?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

microbob said:


> I gotta say, it is going to be a deal breaker for me. I'm completely SHOCKED to find this feature missing. The wife is kicking me in the butt over this as we both used this feature heavily in our Series 2 Tivos.
> 
> Does DishNetowrk's HD DVRs have this feature?


Welcome to the forum, microbob! :welcome_s

Yes, the Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB, PIP, and two TV control (two separate TV feeds, tho the second is 480i.) The only two things that the Vip622 lacks is a second OTA tuner and the ability to truly add disk space--any larger drives are used as VOD storage. But it will/can archive to a USB disk and playback from the USB storage. (Not sure if that feature is fully enabled yet.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## microbob (Apr 26, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Welcome to the forum, microbob! :welcome_s
> 
> Yes, the Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB, PIP, and two TV control (two separate TV feeds, tho the second is 480i.) The only two things that the Vip622 lacks is a second OTA tuner and the ability to truly add disk space--any larger drives are used as VOD storage. But it will/can archive to a USB disk and playback from the USB storage. (Not sure if that feature is fully enabled yet.)
> 
> ...


Thanks! At first I thought we were missing something. I never read the manual while the wife reads them from top to bottom. After about two days of searching we couldn't figure out how to enable or work the DLB feature.

I hit google and find this place where I find that I'm not the only one. I just wish I had found this place *before* started upgrading all my equipment.

The only plus side of this is it has taken the DirectTV installers 4 trips to my house and they still haven't gotten all my equipment setup. On each trip the DirectTV homeoffice has either sent them without all the equipment or completely wrong orders. All this after I verify the order with them on the phone before the come out and yet they have failed to get it right.

I'm already a little steamed over the install issues, but now I'm a little more than steamed to find that DLB are missing.

That is pretty much a deal breaker for us. I'm going to have to write some letters, but I'm hoping this will get me out of my 2 year contract.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

microbob said:


> Thanks! At first I thought we were missing something. I never read the manual while the wife reads them from top to bottom. After about two days of searching we couldn't figure out how to enable or work the DLB feature.
> 
> I hit google and find this place where I find that I'm not the only one. I just wish I had found this place *before* started upgrading all my equipment.
> 
> ...


I understand completely. Good luck. I'm still hoping DLB will arrive, but it might not be soon enough for some people as our needs do vary.

Cheers,
Tom


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I just hope it's before the NFL season starts.

Summer is my outdoor season and TV viewing hours drop. But the fall? I need my DLB!


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## ericpd (Apr 26, 2007)

1953 said:


> What is DLB?
> 
> I know, I know, I was standing in the closet with a bucker over my head when the good Lord gave out brains.
> 
> llllllllllllllLouisp


Each sat tuner has it's own live buffer, AND the receiver provides a button to toggle viewing between tuners. It's a better alternative than changing channels when there's two programs showing that you wanna keep tabs on. Changing tuners keeps the individual buffers in tact. Changing channels wipes out a tuner's buffer each time you do so, so you can't back up to see what you missed on program A when you bounced to program B.

DLB is useless without a swap button allowing quick access to each tuner.


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## NYHeel (Aug 21, 2006)

ericpd said:


> Each sat tuner has it's own live buffer, AND the receiver provides a button to toggle viewing between tuners. It's a better alternative than changing channels when there's two programs showing that you wanna keep tabs on. Changing tuners keeps the individual buffers in tact. Changing channels wipes out a tuner's buffer each time you do so, so you can't back up to see what you missed on program A when you bounced to program B.
> 
> DLB is useless without a swap button allowing quick access to each tuner.


Not quite. On the Dtivo if you put Tuner A on channel 4 and Tuner B on channel 7 you can swap tuners by simply typing in channel 7 and vice versa. You don't actually need a swap button. Of course it's much better and easier with a swap button. However it doesn't actually dump the buffer when you switch channels.


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

Down arrow also swaps tuners, and there is one more way to do it (whatever button happens to be programmed on my universal remotes "TV/Vid" key).

I miss my DLB sorta.......I really only used it in the case of sports, which I havent had a chance to do yet on the HR20 (baseball and football fan, so the few weeks the seasons overlap are prime time for me to use DLB). We'll see what happens, but since the HR20 isnt my primary viewing receiver, Im not too worried. My primary viewing area only has a single receiver anyway, so I cant complain.....yet.

BTW I didnt vote because my official vote would have to be "DLB is coming, but not anytime soon". D* has been pretty responsive with requests from this board and the CE-ers, so youd figure sometime down the road theyd get to DLB.

-Chris


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

microbob said:


> The only plus side of this is it has taken the DirectTV installers 4 trips to my house and they still haven't gotten all my equipment setup. On each trip the DirectTV homeoffice has either sent them without all the equipment or completely wrong orders. All this after I verify the order with them on the phone before the come out and yet they have failed to get it right.


Wow, you consider that a 'plus?' 



microbob said:


> That is pretty much a deal breaker for us. I'm going to have to write some letters, but I'm hoping this will get me out of my 2 year contract.


I believe you can return your equipment and get out of the 2 year contract if you do it within the first 30 days?


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, the Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB, PIP, and two TV control (two separate TV feeds, tho the second is 480i.) The only two things that the Vip622 lacks is a second OTA tuner and the ability to truly add disk space--any larger drives are used as VOD storage. But it will/can archive to a USB disk and playback from the USB storage. (Not sure if that feature is fully enabled yet.)


Holy S*(&^!

E*'s DVR does all THAT? Hummmm...very interesting.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

stogie5150 said:


> Holy S*(&^!
> 
> E*'s DVR does all THAT? Hummmm...very interesting.


That is one of the reasons I'm so disappointed in the HR20, knowing that there is another box out there that was built PRIOR to the HR20 and has A LOT more features that I want. IMO, D* really screwed up the HR20 design.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

tiger2005 said:


> That is one of the reasons I'm so disappointed in the HR20, knowing that there is another box out there that was built PRIOR to the HR20 and has A LOT more features that I want. IMO, D* really screwed up the HR20 design.


Here's my .02.

I see Directv heading towards being a sports provider. I'm not a Baseball Fan. I am not much of a Football fan, much less a ST subscriber. I do sub to the NHL package, but I can get that virtually anywhere. Hell Charter Cable, as bad as they are here, has CI. 
I think MPEG4 HD working 100% ( or close, anyway) is still a ways off. the continuing problems with the HR20 and MPEG4 confirm this, to me anyway. E* might fill a void for those of us who don't want media streaming, or EI, OR ST with our DVR. PIP sounds GREAT! DLB is even better! Feed two rooms with ONE reciever? Where has D* been while E* was building this wonder box? 

We have told D* that DLB is our number one wanted feature. do we have it yet?? Nope. We're getting VOD. Are they REALLY listening? 

The only thing I DON'T know is actually HOW good the 622 really is. Is it just like the HR20, a work in progress? Things that look good on the surface sometimes are not so good when you get below the surface. You have to consider that.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

stogie - D* has _always_ set them up as THE sports provider. That's what makes DLB lack of support an incongruous position in my mind.


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## kbxm (Mar 15, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Welcome to the forum, microbob! :welcome_s
> 
> Yes, the Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB, PIP, and two TV control (two separate TV feeds, tho the second is 480i.) The only two things that the Vip622 lacks is a second OTA tuner and the ability to truly add disk space--any larger drives are used as VOD storage. But it will/can archive to a USB disk and playback from the USB storage. (Not sure if that feature is fully enabled yet.)
> 
> ...


And it works great. I helped my in-laws get set up last weekend, and if it weren't for being a picture quality nazi, (and longtime D* subscriber) I'd switch. The 622 rocks. DLB, PIP and 2 TV feature all worked right away without problems.

The picture quality (OTA, HD or SD) isn't as good as my new HR20-100 but I'd almost be willing to switch just for the functionality since it's much less of a "culture shock" moving from the DirecTiVo to the 622. And for me, VOD is not a big function I'd use, but DLB is something I used every day.

Sounds like I'm not alone, but is anyone at D* listening?


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

kbxm said:


> Sounds like I'm not alone, but is anyone at D* listening?


They are hearing - not listening though.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

stogie5150 said:


> The only thing I DON'T know is actually HOW good the 622 really is. Is it just like the HR20, a work in progress? Things that look good on the surface sometimes are not so good when you get below the surface. You have to consider that.


Well, to be fair, the 622, as with all Dish receivers, was a work in progress for the first year or so of it's life. I hear it's pretty solid now.

For those who don't know history, Dish has been bashed for a decade for terrible and unstable receivers. In the HD receiver realm they basically kept coming up with new models every year to try to find something that was stable, basically forcing users to upgrade along the way (at a fee of course) until the current ViP line which was finally "not bad" at the start (instead of terrible).

It's no excuse for the HR20 by any means, but Dish has been much worse with stability of receivers. 622 has been out for some time now (in fact they are replacing it) so it's pretty stable now.

Also it's PIP functionality was in a just recent upgrade the past couple months.

For more info one just has to look up to the Dish forums here or over at Satguys. And you'll see plenty of threads bashing it just like you do here for the HR20 or even on the Tivo Community for the DirecTivo's. No matter how stable your product there are always going to be those with problems and they are the ones that post the most.


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