# Locals: Why pay dish if i get them all OTA?



## mikeinaustin (May 20, 2004)

OK here is the deal, i currently get all my locals in HD via OTA. If i order a 622 why or why not should i pay the $5 fee for locals?

Specifically, if i do not pay dish for locals, will it still let me record them via OTA? How would it (or would it) get the channel guide for these OTA channels? 

If i do pay for locals i assume a channel guide is provided for them. But if i record via this channel guide how do i specify (or can i) that i want to record the OTA HD version and not the local SD satellite version?

Now i live here in austin,tx and i understand that at some time in the future HD locals will be sent down via satellite (though i assume i'll always be able to see the OTA version), but for now assume this is not the case, ie, to watch HD locals it needs to be done via OTA.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

WIthout paying for the locals you will not get any guide data...so its up to you if you feel you can record without that guide data or not


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## bbriggs (Dec 17, 2003)

Unfortunately, the guide is tied to satellite locals subscription. In my case the guide so provided is not accurate for all channels and is considerably worse than that provided by titantv for free. I have both satellite locals and off-air showing in my 921 guide, I can select either to record.

I've not found any compelling reason to view any satellite locals yet and don't anticipate such a need in the future. I think echostar should throw us a bone and at least provide a useful guide for those of us who have absolutely no desire to view LIL. How hard could that be? It might give us the illusion that echostar actually cares about their higher-end customers. But heck no, they think the guide for analog channels is just fine and dandy for everyone, and charge for it like we actually view the analogs.

There is a reason why I don't have a 622 yet - fees! Lots and lots of fees, whether there is a service associated with them or not. The 921 spews out HD locals with no HD fee, just an optional 'guide' fee.


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## Cold Irons (Dec 7, 2005)

Reasons to go ahead and get the SAT locals (even if you don't have SAT HD locals available yet):

1) It's the only way to get guide data for your OTA locals on the 622. You'll be able to see both the SAT SD locals and the HD OTA locals in the guide. Otherwise, you'll have to set manual timers on the 622 to record the OTA shows.

2) It gives you more recording capabiliy. The 622 has only one OTA tuner, so you can only record one OTA show at a time. By including the SAT locals, you can record 3 network shows at once (one from the OTA, and 2 from the SAT locals). In our family, its the only way to keep everyone happy - too many "must see" shows on at the same time.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

Cold Irons said:


> Reasons to go ahead and get the SAT locals (even if you don't have SAT HD locals available yet):
> 
> 1) It's the only way to get guide data for your OTA locals on the 622. You'll be able to see both the SAT SD locals and the HD OTA locals in the guide. Otherwise, you'll have to set manual timers on the 622 to record the OTA shows.
> 
> 2) It gives you more recording capabiliy. The 622 has only one OTA tuner, so you can only record one OTA show at a time. By including the SAT locals, you can record 3 network shows at once (one from the OTA, and 2 from the SAT locals). In our family, its the only way to keep everyone happy - too many "must see" shows on at the same time.


You can set 2 OTA records at one time. 1 digital & 1 analog over the air at the same time.


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## dishjim (Oct 21, 2004)

whatchel1 said:


> You can set 2 OTA records at one time. 1 digital & 1 analog over the air at the same time.


There is only one OTA tuner. There are 2 Sat tuners making a total of 3 tuners.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

whatchel1 said:


> You can set 2 OTA records at one time. 1 digital & 1 analog over the air at the same time.


As another poster mentioned... not only is there only 1 OTA tuner, but the ViP622 doesn't have analog tuning capability, so you can't tune to an analog channel even with the tuner it does have.


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

bbriggs said:
 

> There is a reason why I don't have a 622 yet - fees! Lots and lots of fees, whether there is a service associated with them or not. The 921 spews out HD locals with no HD fee, just an optional 'guide' fee.


Most of the extra fees are if you do not order at least the BronzeHD package and subscribe for 18 month committment. If you have this the ota on the 622 is not an extra charge. I have my ota HD plus the locals, but my HD locals are already up so paying for the optional 'guide' fee is worth it in my case.


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

whatchel1 said:


> You can set 2 OTA records at one time. 1 digital & 1 analog over the air at the same time.


E* has never had a receiver that recorded analog. Older HD receivers had an analog tuner so you could record the digital and watch the analog at the same time. Current HD receivers do not have analog tuners anymore.


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

HDMe said:


> As another poster mentioned... not only is there only 1 OTA tuner, but the ViP622 doesn't have analog tuning capability, so you can't tune to an analog channel even with the tuner it does have.


The new receivers have one digital/HD tuner, the analog tuner was always seperate and is not included with the current models. Older models did have two tuners, the analog tuner was never recordable on a DVR.


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## wingnut1 (Nov 10, 2005)

Another reason to subscribe and get the LIL locals is NBR.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

mikeinaustin said:


> OK here is the deal, i currently get all my locals in HD via OTA. If i order a 622 why or why not should i pay the $5 fee for locals?
> 
> Specifically, if i do not pay dish for locals, will it still let me record them via OTA? How would it (or would it) get the channel guide for these OTA channels?
> 
> ...


I receive mine OTA. The guide data isn't worth $5 to me. I've got an analog tuner in my TV which I never use and last and most importantly the image quality on both HD and SD programs, OTA is better picture quality than sat or cable.


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

olgeezer said:


> I receive mine OTA. The guide data isn't worth $5 to me. I've got an analog tuner in my TV which I never use and last and most importantly the image quality on both HD and SD programs, OTA is better picture quality than sat or cable.


I get mine OTA as well, I can tape three network programs in HD at the same time. Worth the $5.00 to me.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

My sig file says it all.

E* CAN, and has briefly in the past, allowed the 921 to download guide data without subscribing to the (IMNSHO overcompressed) LIL's. They still can't get PBS stations' guides correct, yet they still insist on charging us if we want the guide data. :raspberry

I say give us the PSIP data! Sure not every station keeps the data stream up to date, however if they data is there GIVE IT TO US!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Michael P said:


> I say give us the PSIP data! Sure not every station keeps the data stream up to date, however if they data is there GIVE IT TO US!


There are more problems with PSIP data than simply whether or not your station is up to date (or even broadcasts a guide). To even approach accuracy the tuner has to keep changing channels ... reading the PSIP info from each channel and storing it in the receiver's memory. So E* would have to set up a nightly (or more often) scan of all OTAs just to get the data, and figure out a way of adding that data to the EPG database. I can almost hear the reply --- "fine, have E* do that." Such a feature built into a satellite receiver sounds like something they would have to spend money to engineer, and it would be a feature worth money. If E* engineers such a feature they would probably want to charge $5 for using it ... which is the same as subscribing to locals. Why waste the time in engineering? Just sell locals.

How does D* do OTA locals? PSIP? Free satellite EPG? If they do better than E* then they may be a better option for you. If enough people feel likewise perhaps E* will change their stance. At this point E*'s policy is that you don't get locals EPG data unless locals are available on your reciever via satellite. A momentary 'glitch' that allowed you to violate that policy doesn't change the policy.


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## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

Is it just the 921 that will show Local HD Guide data with out pay for Locals or does the 942 do it also?

I know the 622 requires you to sub to Locals to get guide data, but Im wondering about the 942?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I have a receiver (not my Dish one) that does get the PSIP data for local stations. Problem is, not all the info is there for all the stations AND it is only available for a short-term. There doesn't seem to be any 24-hour or 7-day PSIP info floating around... just info for the next couple of hours.

From my experience the PSIP data just hasn't been that valuable.


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

scottchez said:


> Is it just the 921 that will show Local HD Guide data with out pay for Locals or does the 942 do it also?
> 
> I know the 622 requires you to sub to Locals to get guide data, but Im wondering about the 942?


No, the only receiver that doesn't require the subscription is the 811


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## wingnut1 (Nov 10, 2005)

I have a DVD player with a HD tuner. It gets the PSIP data, but you have to tune it to that channel and leave it for a few minutes for it to download. In addition it only stores it for a limited time. Every time I use this tuner I have to tune to each OTA channel to get all the data.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

simply put, if you are buying a 622, it is because you plan to DVR, and almost inveritably you plan to record more than 1 thing in HD at a time. You have the question backwards actually, the question really is why should i get OTA with I can get Dish HD LiL's. 

OTA defeats the purpose of buying the 622, unless you actually think you'll never want to record 2 shows simultaneously off locals, or record 1 watch 1. Also, you'll receive none of the SD analog locals from OTA, while Dish is giving you all the SD locals and the HD locals for one price (and the programming guide data). 

just as OTA is good to have incase Dish has a signal issue, like during bad weather, Dish is good to have as a backup to OTA in case your local OTA transmitter is offline for a time (I've had a local of mine drop a couple times over 2 years, so it does happen) 

The only reason not to get dish locals is if you will never watch 2 local HD programs at the same time. Otherwise, without the Dish HD locals, you never get full use of the 622. (oh, and don't forget, that in 2009 analog reception won't be an option any longer).


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## Fifty Caliber (Jan 4, 2006)

E* does not uplink low powered stations, which you might be able to get OTA. These stations do not qualify for "must-carry".


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## John W (Dec 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> There are more problems with PSIP data than simply whether or not your station is up to date (or even broadcasts a guide). To even approach accuracy the tuner has to keep changing channels ... reading the PSIP info from each channel and storing it in the receiver's memory. So E* would have to set up a nightly (or more often) scan of all OTAs just to get the data, and figure out a way of adding that data to the EPG database. I can almost hear the reply --- "fine, have E* do that." Such a feature built into a satellite receiver sounds like something they would have to spend money to engineer, and it would be a feature worth money. If E* engineers such a feature they would probably want to charge $5 for using it ... which is the same as subscribing to locals. Why waste the time in engineering? Just sell locals.
> 
> How does D* do OTA locals? PSIP? Free satellite EPG? If they do better than E* then they may be a better option for you. If enough people feel likewise perhaps E* will change their stance. At this point E*'s policy is that you don't get locals EPG data unless locals are available on your reciever via satellite. A momentary 'glitch' that allowed you to violate that policy doesn't change the policy.


The earlier poster mentioned PBS stations specifically at one point and that is a glitch we have here in the Fort Wayne DMA.Of course, we don't get any subchannel data just "digital service".But, for the PBS affiliate the main channel data has been on the -02 channel with the -01 channel saying "digital service" since I've had an hd tuner.Thinking maybe Dish gets its data from Zap to It, looked there and sure enough they had -01 and -02 data reversed.I tried to submit an error report that they ignored.The station itself then intervened and its now right on their web site but not yet right via Dish.Just FYI.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Fifty Caliber said:


> E* does not uplink low powered stations, which you might be able to get OTA. These stations do not qualify for "must-carry".


E* is not REQUIRED to uplink low powered stations, however in some markets LP and CA stations are carried. There are also a few DT subchannels carried on E* in select markets.

The current law *allows* but does not *require* low power stations to be carried within a radius of the station's transmitter site.

(I have two LPs and a DT subchannel in my market that are carried by E*.)


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

Fifty Caliber said:


> E* does not uplink low powered stations, which you might be able to get OTA. These stations do not qualify for "must-carry".


Our local Fox is class a low power and Dish does carry that station. Only broadcast in SD as the station doesn't qualify for digital.


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

olgeezer said:


> Our local Fox is class a low power and Dish does carry that station. Only broadcast in SD as the station doesn't qualify for digital.


What is your dma. E* can't rebroadcast in HD if ota does not offer it in HD to begin with.


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## danm2z (May 18, 2005)

Regarding OTA guide information, I live outside Washington D.C. in an area where I can receive both Washington digital locals and Baltimore digital locals (just have to rotate the antenna). Once Baltimore moved to 110, I started getting guide information for the Baltimore locals, even though I don't / can't subscribe to them. The only info I don't get is for the Baltimore PBS station which has translaters for some of its coverage area. Since I get the signal from the translater, rather than the "master" channel, my 921 doesn't properly map the guide data down.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

garys said:


> What is your dma. E* can't rebroadcast in HD if ota does not offer it in HD to begin with.


Topeka. We do get Fox but only in SD. With our market size, we're a year+ for HD locals from sat. The good news, here in the hilly part of Kansas, it's still pretty darned flat and KC is only 60 miles. Fox plans a flash switch to digital in 2009, when analog expires..


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