# Season pass on 721... its Not just4tivo



## jazzis (Nov 6, 2002)

Ive seen one of the new windows Xp media center computers and they have advace pvr features like name based recording. you can set it up todo single show or the entire series and it know if it is a repeat. The option to only record a certian channel how long to keep the show... Etc............Where did people get that tivo had a patent on this technology.... I can also do this with the EPG on my computer and i dont even have windows Xp media center  Im not sure if replay does it. I think i read ultimatetv does something simular... :shrug: Dish should really look at the other PVR products......


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Threat of Lawsuit is often enough to avoid something. There may be a bunch of features that the Dish Lawyers have said "Looks And Feels tooo much like... to add it to a Dish PVR".


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## mgs24 (Dec 7, 2002)

Yes UTV does this. It knows if it runs longer. If it switches days. Or if it is a repeat and gives you the option not to recored repeats.


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## jazzis (Nov 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gcutler _
> *Threat of Lawsuit is often enough to avoid something. There may be a bunch of features that the Dish Lawyers have said "Looks And Feels tooo much like... to add it to a Dish PVR". *


Do we know for a fact that this is a technology tivo has a patent on or are we just guessing...if they do there is more than one way to do something.... For example microsoft owns the patent for Internet explore and MS Word... but there are other programs that do the samething...Tivo may have a patent on the program Code itself to do those features, but i doubt if you can patent searching for a program by name......


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazzis _
> *
> 
> Do we know for a fact that this is a technology tivo has a patent on or are we just guessing...if they do there is more than one way to do something.... For example microsoft owns the patent for Internet explore and MS Word... but there are other programs that do the samething...Tivo may have a patent on the program Code itself to do those features, but i doubt if you can patent searching for a program by name...... *


It is just conjecture, It could be inability or laziness of Echostar to not add those TiVo like features.

But I doubt MS owns a patent on all Web Browsers or Word Processors since they were not the first to create these product (mosaic and Navigator existed way before IE and Displaywrite, Multimate, Wordpro and Wordperfect existed before Word). Probably MS patented some button or name or such.

As to patenting a function like "Searching a program name" Do you remember when Apple Sued MS for the Windows "Recycle Bin" Look and Feel was same as the Mac "Trash Can" (which Apple actually copied from Xerox Parc). I think that most of these lawsuits are settled out of court so you never see the final outcome of them??? Dish was even being sued by the "originator" of the on-line guide. Look and Feel goes along way with Lawyers.

If any PVR company uses the term "Season Pass" they can expect to be sued by TiVo. If they put in a Season Pass but call it something else, TiVo can still sue. Remember, it isn't who has the best case but who can spend the most money before running out of money that often would win. IMHO, No one is going to attempt to sue the Monolith of MS, so if TiVo did think UTV stole their Patented Season Pass, they would probably want to take on MS last. But they would take on someone the size of Echostar, again conjecture, but Echostar knowing they are a smaller fish than MS, they might avoid the lawsuit compared to other companies like MS who can form a legal team with little effort..


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

ReplayTV also has show-based recording, and they're a heck of a lot smaller than MS or TiVo and they haven't been sued over it. My guess is E* doesn't want to admit they just took the easy way out and went with time-based recording.

Dennis


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Then why could they not do this in a simple software upgrade?


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

I think you know the answer to that. They could but....


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## jazzis (Nov 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gcutler _
> *
> But I doubt MS owns a patent on all Web Browsers or Word Processors since they were not the first to create these product (mosaic and Navigator existed way before IE and Displaywrite, Multimate, Wordpro and Wordperfect existed before Word). Probably MS patented some button or name or such.
> *


This was my point Word processers all do the same basic thing. However where the patents are is on the programing sorce code and how that company does it. You cant patent word processing itself just the propritary code your company used to make the word prcessor happen. Like i said before everyone is so quick to say it cause of tivo patents but do we know this or are people just trowing ideas out there......I mean come on just about everyother PVR Can do this except dish. (Actually Dishplayer was name based it just wasnt nearly as advanced. Mine would catch extended shows..... :shrug: not much else...  but that did tell me that it was name based and not time based recordings)


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

But actually your point is a little misguided in that the idea, not just the programming process can in fact be copywrited or patented, the originator of the Word Processor or Spreadsheet could have Copywrited/Patented the idea of entering and organizing words or #s. The Makers of "Visicalc" (the first Spreadsheet) were a bunch of "Freedom Loving Hippies" and never pressed forth any copywrites/patents (either never applied for them or never pushed the issue), especially they could have when Lotus Development stole the spreadsheet idea out from under them. The Web Browser was also created in an environment where they wanted to spread its usage so no pressing of copywrites/patents. 

So if In fact MS has been the first one to create the Web Browser or Word Processor, they could have enforced the copywrite/patent of the idea of a Word Processor or Web Browser. And anyone making a clone could have been sued. (Successfully???) Even with proper reverse engineering techniques, the Lawsuit could still occur, outcome questionable. Lotus sued Borland (for Quatro pro) in the early 90s because they offered the use of identical keyboard commands "/" "/FP", etc. There is a difference between someone like MS holding a patent on just a small piece of a software and the originator. If TiVo had been the first to create the idea of the "Season Pass" they could try and sue anyone who makes clone of it. The lucky part is that "There are no new ideas" or they probably stole the idea from something else, so a real lawsuit (with a real outcome) would be less likely? Lotus sues Borland but stole the idea from Visicalc; Apple sues Microsoft but stole the idea from Xerox Parc. I think that is probably the reality for everything these days. 

I'm guessing the WordProcessor has been around for a zillion years and years in the mainframe world so that is a moot point, but luckily the originator of the Spreadsheet or Web browser while passed the point today, could have pressed their patent within the past 10 years.

But I guess all this mumbo-jumbo of a response really is equal to the conjecture that Dish probably didn't add certain features because of lack of ability, time or desire.


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## jazzis (Nov 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gcutler _
> *But actually your point is a little misguided in that the idea, not just the programming process can in fact be copywrited or patented, the originator of the Word Processor or Spreadsheet could have Copywrited/Patented the idea of entering and organizing words or #s. The Makers of "Visicalc" (the first Spreadsheet) were a bunch of "Freedom Loving Hippies" and never pressed forth any copywrites/patents (either never applied for them or never pushed the issue), especially they could have when Lotus Development stole the spreadsheet idea out from under them. The Web Browser was also created in an environment where they wanted to spread its usage so no pressing of copywrites/patents.
> *


OK if what you say is true. Why isnt everyone copywritting like you say. There are thousands of programs out there and alot of them do close to the same. Why didnt any one copywrite CD burning, web brosing, word processing, Operating systems( Im not just talking about the operation system itself...but from why your saying someone could copywrite the idea of an operating system and MS, aplle, unix would have to pay a license to make an OS), Database, tax programs, Backup utilitys, antivirus, defrag, programs that scan your disk, intstent messengers....All the type of programs from why you say can be copywrited... with all the different type off programs that do the same things. These company could make just as much money copywriting the idea of something as they could the product itself....(Im sure a big company like MS would have thought i this long ago)Im heavely involed in the music seen and i know there is no way one can copywrite or patent Songwriting...or even a style of music....Only the song itself...But going by what your saying you can...


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

Well most this are copyrighted, just not enforceable. Remember how British Telecom had a patent for links? That didn't help them get royalties from all those websites. AOL just was rewarded a patent for Instant Messaging. Scanning a disk isn't copywriteable, but a type of scanning is.


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## sampatterson (Aug 27, 2002)

As I understand it, Microsoft is in a good position to use any one elses patents that it wants. This is because Microsoft owns a huge of amount of its own patents that it can use offensively (and cover some very common things on computing devices. This usually causes a patent licensing agreement between MS and the disputing party.


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## jazzis (Nov 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *Scanning a disk isn't copywriteable, but a type of scanning is. *


That my whole point earlier but maybe i wasnt clear. :shrug: My mistake. :blush: Dish can do name searches but it doesnt have to be done in the same way.. They just need to get creative


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Let me say this again from what I know. (Some of this is what I have been told, other things are my feelings on the subject)

There are lot's of stuff Dish would love to add to its equipment, much of it probably has already been thought of and probably in many cases the initial software has been written. For one reason or another the software has never seen the light of day.

Chances are very good that if something is not on an Echostar box at the moment that the reason it is not there is because of a legal reason such as a patent, copyright or some other legal factor.

I think that the721 Team would love to have named based recording, however with that said there is a reason at this moment why they can't do named based recording. Will that change over time? Only time will tell.

I think the 721 team has some ideas on how to do something like name based recordings, without actually using name based recordings. (And thus may avoid all the legal headaches) 

The 721 Team is a very smart team, they want the 721 to be the world class product just as much as you do.

Hang in there you are seeing a great product grow and blossom in front of your own eyes. 

Happy Holidays Everyone!


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazzis _
> *
> 
> OK if what you say is true. Why isnt everyone copywritting like you say. There are thousands of programs out there and alot of them do close to the same. Why didnt any one copywrite CD burning, web brosing, word processing, Operating systems...(*


Some of these things you describe have been around for years (for example, a tire made out of rubber was probably patented early on by goodyear or someone, but the patent ran out lets say 80 years ago, so anyone can make a rubber tire now, but the different treads may be patented) So since a patents usually only lasted 17 years they were long ago history. Some of the stuff came about as part of the first mainframes so by the time the PC came around the "Idea" was old. Others would have a legal quagmire for themselves and everyone else that there was no true benefit in persuing lawsuits.

Also when it comes to some technology, the software can also be part of the hardware process. Someone had to have created the CD-Burner which is Patentable and chances are they also created the SW needed to burn (probably also copywriteable). They might not have considered the SW worth enforcing a copywrite/patent on as they figured they didn't want to be in the CD-R SW business, as the HW was what they cared about. Also there is the issue of age. Some products do not become very popular until the patent has run out and everyone can start using the technology. I remember seeing CD-ROM drives over 12-13 years ago (not very popular) how long were they available perhaps one of the reasons they didn't pickup till a few years later was that the patents was still in affect and it didn't become cost effective for the end user until the patent ran out and costs were thus dropped.

I'm not saying that everything is patentable/copywriteable, but if you look at the Lawsuits going on over the past years, the issue of "The Idea" especially in the "Look and Feel" lawsuits has alot to be faught over. And a good lawyer/engineer can possibly change enough of the product so that the product can do similar things (but some different) so that the "Idea" is legally different enough to be in question. Read thru the business section for a few weeks and you will be shocked at the lawsuits occurring.

The fact that Apple spent sooo much time suing MS over the look and feel of Windows vs MacOS (Hinging on the Recyle Bin/Trash Can), when in fact Apple stole the GUI ideas from Xerox Parc just goes to explain how crazy it is and even non-legit lawsuits (which I felt that was) can involved millions in legal fees, etc.

So it is not out of the question that Dish might be sheepish about implementing some features other vendors tout. Or at least it sounds like a good excuse. ;D


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## Halfsek (Oct 29, 2002)

I thought that Apple bought the rights to the OS from Xerox. At least that's what I remember from that PBS documentary.

Tivo and Replay just settled dueling lawsuits they had with eachother. My understanding is that Tivo has the patent to the PVR functioning as a whole- the fact that you're recording something on a hard drive for later viewing. According to my Tivo buddy, they apparently called the patent something to the effect of "Time Warp Recording" or "Time shift TV viewing"; something to do with time travel TV viewing. Technically, they feel that they sue anyone who makes a PVR regardless of the specific ways it records. They have chosen not to sue for whatever reason (probably lack of funds). So I doubt that Dish having a name based recording will trigger a lawsuit from Tivo. 
Tivo is doing a good job spending their money for branching out and making deals with hardware makers and with movie/ TV channels.

They had a very cool feature a couple of times that during a commercial for a program a note would pop up on the tv saying "Press the Thumbs Up button on your remote to record this program." So instead of going into the programming and setting the recorder, the Tivo would know that the commercial for Friends (the one time I saw it) was on and if, during the commercial, you hit the Thumbs Up button, Tivo would record the next show with the name of Friends.
They apparently did it by sending instructions through the Closed Caption stream.
I only saw it once or twice, but wouldn't that be cool? You see an ad for something coming up that you like. You don't have to search or anything, just his a button and your PVR knows what to record.

Since Tivo has limited funds and manpower, they're going to have to use what they have in the direction that makes them more popular with the masses and more money. Starting lawsuits with a questionable outcome isn't a good way to grow your business.


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