# The 411 on the 411.



## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

First of all, here's some shots of it, if you're interested: Link.

1 & 2 are pictures of the front of the 411.

3 is a shot of the manual, because I didn't want to disconnect the thing to get a shot of the back. Mine does NOT have the ethernet port but it does have the USB port.

4 is a shot of the front with the "smart card door" open. You can see in the manual there's something called the smart card door. I'm not sure what it's for. The manual (if you can't read it) says "future slot for a smart card".

5 is my system. 30" Sony HDTV. DVD/VCR combo. AMC integrated tube amp. Sony tuner. Marantz 5-CD changer. B&W 301 bookshelf speakers. XM radio. It's an all right set-up considering the wife and the room. The speakers are at a terrible location, but they really can't go to the sides are ear level because of the doors on the entertainment center, and doors leading out of the room. We were watching Charlie Brown, and it turns out I was using the wrong ABC feed but it didn't make much of a difference.

The 411: pretty cool.

First of all, the only buggy behavior I found was one time I was watching channel 13 and used the channel changer to go down to channel 2. Then, I used the "browse" button to flip back up to 13, but when I selected it, it stayed on channel 2. Hmmm.

Other than that, it worked like a charm.

Now first of all. . .I'm glad I'm getting the OTA signals, because as far as I can tell, that's the only way to get HD programming for the networks. The local feeds I got through dish were not HD.

Now, I don't know what features the 811 had so I can't say where the 411 might have been different, but here's some observations.

I really like being able to set up your favorites lists. I have one for just HD, one for premium stations, one for locals, and one for cable stations (ESPN, MTV, CNN, etc.). That's a pretty slick way to surf.

It has the "Dish channel". From here, you can get stock quotes, sports standings, news. You can do Karaoke, bet on horses, play trivia. Some for a fee, some free. Pretty interesting. Mostly useless.

The timer is really nice. It has the ability to just remind you, OR automatically flip to that station, OR send and "IR BLAST" to the VCR to turn it on and start taping the show. (question: does anyone know the code for the DVD/VCR combo that the Dish remote uses? It's not the same codes as the remote that came with my Sony TV).

Also, let's say you're using the guide and it's noon, you can put in "8", then push the browse button, and it will skip ahead 8 hours in the guide window. That's a nice feature.

You can get a signal strength read-out for your OTA stations. You can edit their names, remove the analog ones so the box doesn't even recognize them. The edit is nice, because for instance, one of the local channels just broadcasts a local radar image so you can label this "RADR" instead of trying to remember whether 002-01 or 002-03 is the station you want. One broadcasts 24 hour local weather, and one broadcasts a network called "The Tube" that plays videos all day.

My cable guy ran the antenna/dish into a combiner, used the existing cable line through my basement, then ran a splitter at the box. I switched out the cables he used at the box with some cables I knew were RG-6 and saw an increase in signal strength. So, I don't know if he was using crappier cables coming out of the splitter, OR if I got an increase because I did that on Sunday morning, and it was just a new day. But, I don't think the cable running through the basement is an RG-6 so I might replace that one, too. The OTA strength is about 80 and pretty constant.

The installer gave me component video cables with the box.

He did not charge me the $50 upgrade fee, but I think that was because they moved back the scheduled day of installation by 4 days so he was doing me a favor.

That's about all I can say about it right now. If you have any other questions about the receiver, I'll give it a shot.


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## saweetnesstrev (Oct 8, 2005)

Did you order this from the main office or a retailer


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## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

The main office. 

But the installer is a local guy who isn't just Dish. I think he does every kind of install.


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## saweetnesstrev (Oct 8, 2005)

Im getting a 411 or 811 i dont know which one today,, hopefully its a 411 cause i would hate to upgrade later on and i have a HDMI port..


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## AcuraCL (Dec 12, 2005)

Nice review Mth, thanks for taking the time.

Have you tried pulling in any DC stations? I'm sure in Hampden you're getting a clear line of sight to Tv Hill, but are you seeing any of the 49% signal strength bounce where it won't lock on an OTA channel?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Thanks for sharing, mth.

JL


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Kudos Mth.. thanks for the pictures and your thoughts. Much appreciated.


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## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

AcuraCL said:


> Nice review Mth, thanks for taking the time.
> 
> Have you tried pulling in any DC stations? I'm sure in Hampden you're getting a clear line of sight to Tv Hill, but are you seeing any of the 49% signal strength bounce where it won't lock on an OTA channel?


Below I attached a list of the stations that "antennaweb.org" gives me.

The only digital stations that are listed are all from Baltimore. The *'s indicate the digital stations.

What you'll notice is that all of the "TV Hill" stations are at 282º. These, I'm getting. I suspect my antenna is too directional even though my installer said I had a multidirectional up there.

I also get the WB-DT that is listed at 287º. I'm not sure if that is also on TV Hill, or just nearby. There is a smaller antenna there.

I don't get the ones at 257º which is WB analog, and UPN (analog & digital).

PBS is at 188º and I don't get that. So, I'm only getting UPN & PBS through the dish locals.

Now, it looks like all the DC stations are right in the same range, 233º - 236º. Antennaweb indicates I'd need a large directional with pre-amp for them, but none of them are even digital. I could see the benefit of getting them, but really I doubt it's worth the effort.

Anyway, I don't think I'm getting what you describe. When I tell the dish to search for the locals it returns a list of 11 stations. The 9 you see below at 282-287 and a third WMAR station that is just radar, and a third WB station.


```
yellow - uhf WNUV    54   WB  BALTIMORE MD  257° 7.8 54 
yellow - uhf WNUV-DT 54.1 WB  BALTIMORE MD  287° 1.2 40 *
yellow - vhf WJZ     13   CBS BALTIMORE MD  282° 1.3 13 
yellow - uhf WJZ-DT  13.1 CBS BALTIMORE MD  282° 1.3 38 *
yellow - vhf WMAR    2    ABC BALTIMORE MD  282° 1.2 2 
yellow - uhf WMAR-DT 2.1  ABC BALTIMORE MD  282° 1.3 52 *
yellow - uhf WMPT-DT 22.1 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD  188° 22.4 42 * 
yellow - vhf WBAL    11   NBC BALTIMORE MD  282° 1.3 11 
yellow - uhf WBAL-DT 11.1 NBC BALTIMORE MD  282° 1.3 59 *
yellow - uhf WBFF    45   FOX BALTIMORE MD  287° 1.2 45 
yellow - uhf WBFF-DT 45.1 FOX BALTIMORE MD  287° 1.2 46 *
green  - uhf WMPT    22   PBS ANNAPOLIS MD  188° 22.4 22 
green  - uhf WUTB    24   UPN BALTIMORE  MD  257° 7.8 24 
lgreen - uhf WUTB-DT 24.1 UPN BALTIMORE MD  257° 7.8 41 *
blue   - uhf WMPB    67   PBS BALTIMORE MD  325° 11.3 67 
violet - vhf WUSA    9    CBS WASHINGTON DC  233° 35.9 9 
violet - uhf WMJFLP  16   A1  TOWSON  MD  24° 4.3 16 
violet - vhf WGAL    8    NBC LANCASTER PA  11° 48.3 8 
violet - uhf WETA    26   PBS WASHINGTON DC  236° 36.2 26 
violet - vhf WJLA    7    ABC WASHINGTON DC  233° 35.9 7 
violet - uhf WDCA    20   UPN WASHINGTON DC  236° 36.2 20 
violet - uhf WPMT    43   FOX YORK  PA  13° 47.9 43 
violet - uhf WFDC    14   TFA ARLINGTON VA  233° 36.5 14 
violet - vhf WTTG    5    FOX WASHINGTON  DC  234° 35.7 5 
violet - vhf WRC     4    NBC WASHINGTON DC  233° 36.5 4 
violet - uhf WHUT    32   PBS WASHINGTON DC  236° 36.2 32 
violet - uhf WNVC    56   IND FAIRFAX VA  236° 45.0 56 
violet - uhf WBDC    50   WB  WASHINGTON  DC  231° 33.4 50
```


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## saweetnesstrev (Oct 8, 2005)

The 411 you still need an extra atennae to get local hd?


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## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

saweetnesstrev said:


> The 411 you still need an extra atennae to get local hd?


As far as I can tell.

I have HD service, and local service, and I'm not getting HD locals.

I think that's what some people's beef seems to be. . .like they need to get a waiver from a local CBS station to get CBD-HD from Dish.

And, CBS-HD is the only network HD they are currently listing.

I gotta tell you, it surprised me. I didn't know it was like that. All the people I know who have HD must have Comcast. I just figured that I'd get OTA and Dish HD for locals, but that's doesn't seem to be the case.


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## invaliduser88 (Apr 23, 2002)

I would say yes, since Dish isn't providing HD locals yet....


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## AcuraCL (Dec 12, 2005)

mth said:


> ...The only digital stations that are listed are all from Baltimore. The *'s indicate the digital stations....
> Now, it looks like all the DC stations are right in the same range, 233º - 236º. Antennaweb indicates I'd need a large directional with pre-amp for them, but none of them are even digital. I could see the benefit of getting them, but really I doubt it's worth the effort.


I put the Rotunda's address into Antenna web just 'cause I know it's somewhat close to you, it gave me these back:

*	blue - uhf	WUSA-DT	9.1	CBS	WASHINGTON	DC 233°	35.9	34
*	blue - uhf	WJLA-DT	7.1	ABC	WASHINGTON	DC 233°	35.9	39
*	blue - uhf	WBDC-DT	50.1	WB	WASHINGTON	DC 230°	33.4	51
*	violet - uhf	WRC-DT	4.1	NBC	WASHINGTON	DC 232°	36.5	48
*	violet - uhf	WTTG-DT	5.1	FOX	WASHINGTON	DC 234°	35.8	36
No

Sometimes it's nice to have a second set of networks as a backup. Actually I get Washington stations flawlessly from Owings Mills with a medium semi-directional antenna (CM 3021) plus preamp, but can't usually get Baltimore (not much ability to point mine in different directions).


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## DCWillia (May 6, 2005)

Hello and once again thanks for the review. I have the 811 and it will do most of what you report. However, I am really curious about the picture quality you get from Standard Definition stations. I have been really disappointed with the SD quality I get here in Southern Cal. I have a 65" Mistibushi TV and this issue is important to me.


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## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

*AcuraCl*, that's funny. I just put in an address about a mile down the street, and I got all of those too. Well, we'll see. Maybe I'll look into mounting another one up there one day.

*DCWillia*. I have nothing to compare it too. The SD digital on my TV looks pretty nice. The SD analog looks kind of sketchy.

Before Dish, I had analog cable, and that looked mostly crappy.

But, I don't think that the receiver has much to do with that. How far do you sit from that 65" screen?

edit: coding.


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## Ken Howe (Aug 9, 2005)

its silver, nice... ^_^


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## hammerdown (Jan 20, 2004)

How will the 411 get and display the OTA guide info? Is it using the actual OTA PSIP, or downloading it from some E* guide database via Sat?

My 6000 has NO guide data at all, just says "Local Progamming" 24/7. Not sure what the 811 has?

Hammer


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Have you watched an MPEG-4 broadcast yet? 

Let us know when you do and then let us know how buggy that is. 

We are not going to know how stable this thing is until there is an MPEG-4 broadcast to receive.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

hammerdown said:


> How will the 411 get and display the OTA guide info? Is it using the actual OTA PSIP, or downloading it from some E* guide database via Sat?
> 
> Hammer


That is a good question for next month's DISH's HD chat.

Using PSIP would be the best bet provided that the station is providing it in a reliable manner. Many stations in my area have a lot of problems with it. In the last few weeks I have had to complain to three local digital stations because their PSIP data was missing, or they were providing very limited (two hours) of guide information. There is one PBS station that has trouble with their clock. It gains a few minutes and, if I don't call to have it corrected every week, it makes the EPG wrong by more than one show (last week it was off by 40 minutes).


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

hammerdown said:


> How will the 411 get and display the OTA guide info? Is it using the actual OTA PSIP, or downloading it from some E* guide database via Sat?
> 
> My 6000 has NO guide data at all, just says "Local Progamming" 24/7. Not sure what the 811 has?


This is quite a point of contention with 921/942 owners. The 811 downloads the guide data from the satellite, two days worth if I am not mistaken, and it is free of charge. It isn't free of charge for the 921/942! You have to subscribe to those compressed, SD locals to get the data. If they want to drop it down to a couple of days and make it free, or 9 days with the subscription, that might seem more fair. Or, if the customer didn't want to subscribe to locals, they could always let him have the free PSIP data and give the extended data to subscribers of SD locals. They don't do that, they block the free, incoming PSIP stream! In essence, they are charging us for something that we should get for free, at least in some form!

It will be interesting to see what the 411 does. Do you subscribe to locals?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Bill R said:


> That is a good question for next month's DISH's HD chat.
> 
> Using PSIP would be the best bet provided that the station is providing it in a reliable manner. Many stations in my area have a lot of problems with it. In the last few weeks I have had to complain to three local digital stations because their PSIP data was missing, or they were providing very limited (two hours) of guide information. There is one PBS station that has trouble with their clock. It gains a few minutes and, if I don't call to have it corrected every week, it makes the EPG wrong by more than one show (last week it was off by 40 minutes).


Bill I think you are given a very good argument and the reason I think Dish is shying away for using PSIP provided guide. I doubt the 411/211 is using the PSIP suplied guide information.

and for the record it is up to 44 hours for the 811 EPG.


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## derwin0 (Jan 31, 2005)

I'm curious if the 411 will pull in gude data for locals that you do not have a dish for.
For example, I need to have a SD105 up to get guide data for Baltimore. Will the 411 allow me to have that without maintaining a superdish.


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## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

hammerdown said:


> How will the 411 get and display the OTA guide info? Is it using the actual OTA PSIP, or downloading it from some E* guide database via Sat?


I don't know, but it has it.

So, for my locals, some of them broadcast two stations, one is analog, one digital. The digital one lists the programming information. The other one just says, "Digital Service". (yes, "digital" even though I assume it's analog).

The confounding factor: since I also am getting the locals package through dish, it's possible that it is using THAT info and just filling it in on my OTA station. But, if you think that that is the case then why isn't it filling in the same information on the analog feed?

What's PSIP?



jsanders said:


> Have you watched an MPEG-4 broadcast yet?


I don't know. What might have been in MPEG-4?



Ken Howe said:


> its silver, nice... ^_^


IMO, it's a very nice looking component. Sleek.


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## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

mth said:


> What's PSIP?


Never mind.

Program and System Information Protocol.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

mth said:


> So, for my locals, some of them broadcast two stations, one is analog, one digital. The digital one lists the programming information. The other one just says, "Digital Service". (yes, "digital" even though I assume it's analog).


If it's listed as 'digital' it should be digital. Are these channels that end -1, -2, -3 or channels that are simply numbers? If it one of the "dash" channels it would be on the station's ATSC digital feed. For example, in my town we have 16-1 WNDU (HD) 16-2 WNDU (SD) and 16-3 WNDU Weather (SD) all being transmitted in digital on the same carrier (which happens to be physical channel 42). Those should show up in my guide as 16-1, 16-2 and 16-3 ... and barring any better description are "digital services".

The analog service of the station cannot be tuned directly by the new receivers. So, in my example, I would have a channel 16 "WNDU" on my receiver - that would be the analog signal captured by E* and transmitted back to me via satellite. If I don't subscribe to locals I don't get "16" via satellite, but still get 16-1,-2 and -3 via OTA digital television.

JL


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## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

That's interesting.

For instance, I get

*2-1* which is ABC. In the Guide, this also has the listings. They label this station WMAR-DT. This is the one that carries HD when ABC has it.

*2-2* which is ABC, and I suppose just carries SD programming. It never goes widescreen, for instance. It also says "Digital Service" in the Guide. This is listed as WMAR (no -DT) which made me think it was analog. Nowe that I think about it, the 411 box does show "Digital Strength" when I tune that in but I just thought it was putting up general strength, not necessarily digital.

Then, I get

*2-3* which is Doppler radar from the same station.

I was just assuming that the one without the -DT was analog.

And they all do something different.

E.g., 
ABC does what I just described. 
NBC just has the one with HD, and weather. 
FOX just had a SD and HD. No special station. 
UPN has HD, SD and "The Tube".


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

mth said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> For instance, I get
> 
> ...


All the stations you mention are digital, while only some may actually show HD programming they are all digital. I don't think the 411 even supports analog OTA with the receiver on. From what I've read it does do analog pass through if the receiver is off, but only OTA digital stations are available with the receiver on.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I believe that what you are getting are all digital. You can have digital in HD and digital not in HD. This is what I get in the LA area. ABC has three. All digitial but only one is putting out HD and that is only part of the time.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

mth said:


> What's PSIP?


As mentioned, it stands for Program and System Information Protocol. It is the information set with an OTA digital channel that gives the time information, EPG information and the channel mapping information. All digital channels broadcast on different frequencies than their analog station but PSIP allows them to map the channel to the same number as their analog station so they don't lose their identity.

As I mentioned, PSIP provides EPG information and the EPG can contain up to 16 days worth of program schedules but, at this time, most stations are only providing EPG information for less than 15 hours (a real letdown compared to what a lot of satellite customers are accustomed to). Most satellite and cable companies don't use the PSIP data to display EPG information. The have their own source for EPG listings which is usually more reliable and complete than PSIP EPG information.


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## hammerdown (Jan 20, 2004)

Bill R said:


> ...Most satellite and cable companies don't use the PSIP data to display EPG information. The have their own source for EPG listings which is usually more reliable and complete than PSIP EPG information.


I have a Samsung SIRT165 D* receiver with only an OTA connection so I can watch HD in a spare room. It gets the EPG directly from the PSIP. I disagree that the EPG provided by Sat is better than real-time PSIP, and I hope E* moves away from the practice with the new mpeg4 boxes. There are threads here discussing the OTA digital EPG problems from E* on the 942.

Hammer


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

May disagree Hammer, but if you take into account the country as a whole I would have to agree with Bill R on this one. You have a much better shot of having the right amount of EPG info and better control of the accuracy of data if you are the source provider. Since NBR also is highly tied to this content you also minimize NBR related issues if you are providing the stream that NBR is relying on.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> ...You have a much better shot of having the right amount of EPG info and better control of the accuracy of data if you are the source provider. ...


Yes, and the OTA station IS the source provider. I'd say that both the DBS and PSIP EPG are generally in sync, but for late EPG changes, the station PSIP is more likely to be accurate.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Varies entirely by market. NOT ONE of my five local HD stations (9 feeds) is accurate in their PSIP program guide.

JL


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Based on what I have seen posted here, I get the impression that PSIP Guide information and the guide information in the stream can vary significately and if this is true personally I can see why a provider might not want to support PSIP supplied EPG. A few months back I thought having the option of using either PSIP or Dish EPG was a good idea, I am not so sure now. Until these guides streams are identically across markets I see a lot of potential for problems.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Mikey,

I agree that PSIP should be more accurate but, for many stations it isn't. In the last few months I have called every station (we have 8) in my market because there was a problem with their PSIP data. Some of the problems were quite serious, for example, no mapping information, and unless someone knew the real RF channel number they could not tune to the digital channel.

I seriously doubt that the satellite companies will do as poor a job as the broadcast stations are doing (at least in my DMA) when it come to providing the guide information.


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## DRJDAN (Apr 28, 2002)

Does the 411 receive MPG2 as well as MPG4 signals?

Is every thing you are watch with the 411 from a new MPG4 sat?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Yes. The MPEG4 receivers can do MPEG2.
There is nothing available in MPEG4 ... yet.
Technically, MPEG4 can be feed from any of E*'s satellites.

JL


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## rbonzer (May 13, 2002)

The problem I have about the PSIP data, is that you have to tune to the channel to receive the programming data. For example, if you only watch UPN on Wednesday night, you'll never get guide data for Saturday. When should the receiver switch to all your OTA digital channels to retrieve the data? How often?

Don't get me wrong, I only have OTA HD, and I love the PSIP guide data, but every evening when I start watching TV, I switch to every channel to populate the guide.

Rob


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

My HD tuner has a scan option ... all channels scanned and a guide compiled. As noted above, it isn't very helpful since my local stations don't bother to give accurate PSIP guide information.

JL


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## AcuraCL (Dec 12, 2005)

rbonzer said:


> The problem I have about the PSIP data, is that you have to tune to the channel to receive the programming data. For example, if you only watch UPN on Wednesday night, you'll never get guide data for Saturday. When should the receiver switch to all your OTA digital channels to retrieve the data? How often?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I only have OTA HD, and I love the PSIP guide data, but every evening when I start watching TV, I switch to every channel to populate the guide.
> 
> Rob


Well, you could always do that (turn to each channel for several seconds) as a macro if you have a programmable remote. Last step: turn off receiver, turn off tv.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Is a 411/vip211 support forum in our near future?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tnsprin said:


> Is a 411/vip211 support forum in our near future?


We've discussed it. Probably when there are enough 411's out there for people to discuss. This forum (E* HD) can be used for support (for the models without specific support forums) or for general complainst/discussion about HD.

JL


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## John W (Dec 20, 2005)

can anyone say is sd pq any better that the terrible quality I get on some sd channels on my 811?


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## xsnrg (Oct 4, 2004)

Generally, anything with a - in it is a digital subchannel of the main channel.

Eg. 5 is the analog channel, 5-1 is the first digital channel (usually the HD channel if they are broadcasting an HD signal), 5-2, and any more 5-* are digital subchannels.

BTW, with 5, and 5-*, to get them to use the same #, they are being remapped. In my case, 5 analog is 5, and 5-* is remapped from 59-*. Doesn't really matter for this conversation, but wanted to clarify.

This was in response to an earlier question in this thread that I didn't see answered.

Any more info on the 411? It's been a few days.


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## mth (Dec 14, 2005)

xsnrg said:


> Any more info on the 411? It's been a few days.


Funny you should ask. It's been a funky weekend.

On Friday, I completely lost contact with two of the satellites. I only had 119. I reset the box, called customer support. I kept running "check switch" and at some point, I found 105, but not 121. Then, I'd lose 105, but still have 119. It was crazy. After a couple of hours, I got all my service back. I had scheduled an appointment for a technician to come by on Monday, but by Saturday, it wasn't doing it anymore.

The technician actually called me and told me that several people in Baltimore were having similar issues. I cancelled the appointment because things seemed to have straightened out.

But, after that, the box was being a ***** again. My local OTA FOX had been a bit touchy. Signal strength has been all right (75-76 or so) but the picture had been freezing, and the audio cutting out a little.

Fine, but sometimes when FOX would cut out, the screen would go black, and then every single channel would go black. I'd have audio, but no picture. So, what the hell? I'd have to do a reset on the receiver, and everything would be fine until the next time it happened.

So, it's been a frustrating weekend. And, anything through the dish has been fine, but the locals have kind of been a mess, so there's nothing to tell Dish about.

I'm still a little irritated with my installer because I didn't want all the splitters and combiners installed and he only hooked up one of my rooftops. He said the other one wouldn't do anything, but I don't know. Still, it doesn't seem like the receiver should just puke whenever I get a bad signal from the locals.


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## AcuraCL (Dec 12, 2005)

AVS Forums, Baltimore/washington thread, it is reported by a Fox 45 person that some of their HD broadcast equipment went out over the weekend. It's not your 411, it's the station.

Watch the thread, the guy said he'd post when they're back on the air.


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