# Your opinions: How should DIRECTV compete against Dish's Hopper?



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

DIRECTV's HR34 is a great DVR with 5 HD tuners that allow it to record anything, anytime. Dish's Hopper has 3 fulltime tuners but one of them is used during primetime to record 4 shows at once. 

Not only that, Hopper's clients give full DVR functionality, while using H-series receivers as clients doesn't allow you to pause live TV. 

There are plusses and minuses to both, so I'd like to know -- 

What does DIRECTV need to do to be the unquestioned king of the hill in this fight? Or are they already?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

I think they already are. I'm not at all impressed with Hopper/Joey.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Not completly there since DIRECTV doesn't have an RVU client available yet. Without it you can't pause live TV on secondary sets unless they also have a HD DVR or you first start a recording on the HR34 and then play that back. You also don't have centralized ToDo list management with the current implementation. Plus from what reports I've seen the Hopper/Joey's UI performance is VERY quick while the HR34's is lacking in that regard.

What to do:

- Get RVU clients out there. Both dedicated DIRECTV STB's, like the rumored C30, and more CE manufactures to get the client implemented in their TV's.
- Implement ToDo/recording management on the HR34 from all STB's.
- Allow for the use of USB memory sticks on the HD STB's so they can do pausing of live programming. But even doing this means that these STB's wouldn't have all features available to them like Pandora and YouTube unless code is added to allow them to access these services via the HR34.
- Improve performance.
- Allow for archival of recordings to a USB (or SATA) drive that can be used on other HR 34's. With a 1TB drive folks will have a bunch of recordings on them and if a HR34 dies they loose them all. With Dish you can copy them to an external drive and then access the recordings on other STB's on the same account.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I certainly think they should. 

A DIRECTV commercial comparing the HR34’s capabilities to Hopper/Joey would be some very good press...maybe even steal some new subs who are considering moving for Hopper. I’m just sayin’ :grin:

Mike


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

To me, the HR34 beats Hopper in functionality. Personally, I don't think Dish's commercials are clear enough about recording 6 things. But then there are inaccuracies in DirecTVs MRV ads.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Sign deals for network On Demand in HD.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

I would be very interested to see the speed of the Hopper/Joey. I know this has become an increasingly frustrating piece of my DVR experience. I'd also like to see how well the boxes perform when viewing shows in multiple rooms. I haven't kept up with the comments from actual users, but I think "snapiness" is important.

PTAT is quite a compelling feature, as is the slingplayer aspect.

For me...

1) Speed
2) Re-do of Nomad (too time consuming to manage)
3) Finish up on DLNA...allow any video to stream, not just TS.
4) Allow streaming through game devices such as XBox, PS3
5) Allow users to scan for local channels not currently available with AM21


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

I can't really suggest anything because, to me, recording all prime time network shows is akin to collecting all the garbage in the neighborhood and taking it home--who cares if you have it all, it's still garbage.

I think it is another case of Dish aiming for those with mundane tastes while DirecTV caters to those who are more selective.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I certainly think they should.
> 
> A DIRECTV commercial comparing the HR34's capabilities to Hopper/Joey would be some very good press...maybe even steal some new subs who are considering moving for Hopper. I'm just sayin' :grin:


Yes, along with a few improvements in speed.

Personally, I have no interest in recording massive quantities of network drivel just to be able to go back and pull out the gems I've "missed".

At CES, the joey was running very hot, and just didn't look like a substantial piece of equipment, but then, I could be biased.


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## Indiana627 (Nov 18, 2005)

Increase/remove the Series Link limit. If you were to record all of primetime, I'm sure that would be more than 50 links, or at least close to it leaving little room for non-primetime links. (I don't have an HR34 but I believe it has the 50 series link limit. If not, please disregard this post.)


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Indiana627 said:


> Increase/remove the Series Link limit. If you were to record all of primetime, I'm sure that would be more than 50 links, or at least close to it leaving little room for non-primetime links. (I don't have an HR34 but I believe it has the 50 series link limit. If not, please disregard this post.)


HR34's limit is 100 SL's, not 50.


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## Chuck W (Mar 26, 2002)

Stuart Sweet said:


> DIRECTV's HR34 is a great DVR with 5 HD tuners that allow it to record anything, anytime. Dish's Hopper has 3 fulltime tuners but one of them is used during primetime to record 4 shows at once.
> 
> Not only that, Hopper's clients give full DVR functionality, while using H-series receivers as clients doesn't allow you to pause live TV.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is much at this point Directv needs to do(minus cleaning up their software for speed and bugs).

About the only thing that would be nice if it the Hxx series receivers had a option as to how to communicate with the HR34.

1) Simply communicate with the HR34 and use it's own tuner as it does now, thus no DVR functionality but also not tyng up an HR34 tuner

OR

2) Having an option to attach itself to the HR34 and use up one of the HR34's tuner BUT allows for DVR functionality.


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

Chuck W said:


> I don't think there is much at this point Directv needs to do(minus cleaning up their software for speed and bugs).
> 
> About the only thing that would be nice if it the Hxx series receivers had a option as to how to communicate with the HR34.
> 
> ...


+1 (especially speed!)

Idea 2 could be called DRV (DirecTV Remote Viewing) and would offer a DECA-based, ehanced and proprietary version of RVU that would "seamlessly" integrate with a more limited, ethernet-based remote home-viewing capability for iPads/Phones, Android devices, etc. OK - I'll stop dreaming ...


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> I can't really suggest anything because, to me, recording all prime time network shows is akin to collecting all the garbage in the neighborhood and taking it home--who cares if you have it all, it's still garbage.
> 
> I think it is another case of Dish aiming for those with mundane tastes while DirecTV caters to those who are more selective.


An of course, that is all your opinion and I have no problem with it.

My choices are some of the excellent broadcast scripted shows, 'cable' type channel scripted shows, movies, golf and boxing with a very slight nod to an occasional 'reality' show.

And I happen to think my selection of shows is every bit as good as your selection of things to watch and not dreck or mundane at all.

I can find no enjoyment watching a 1 hour sporting event that takes 2+ hours to complete 'cause multi-millionaire players and the sponsors need to pad the time to hell and gone.

And no, D* viewers are not at all 'better' than E* viewers in any way. Just different programming tastes. Well, that and they like hardware that isn't just a bit on the pig slow side...


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I certainly think they should.
> 
> A DIRECTV commercial comparing the HR34's capabilities to Hopper/Joey would be some very good press...maybe even steal some new subs who are considering moving for Hopper. I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


A TV commercial that would do this without stretching the truth out of all recognition, can't be done in 15-30-60 second ads.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

Get RVU clients out there is the biggest one I see. I still don't understand what is taking so long on them.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> Get RVU clients out there is the biggest one I see. I still don't understand what is taking so long on them.


I agree. The HR34 plus RVU clients is a very easy way to make a clear, concise and useful ad. And it would be the one I think more would be interested in.


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## bobvick1983 (Mar 21, 2007)

DirecTV needs to market the 5 tuner capability of the HR34 in commercials. Dish is saying that the Hopper can record up to 6 programs at one time, which is technically true for three hours in prime time, but they do not explain all of the caveats involved.
DirecTV should make the average consumer aware of the fact that the HR34 can record 5 things of your choosing at any time.
They need to get a RVU client out as soon as possible. Also, they need to have collaborative scheduling so that you can select which DVR on your network you want to record to. 
As far as speed, the HR34 with the latest update has been very speedy for me, however it can continue to use improvement.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

Beerstalker said:


> Get RVU clients out there is the biggest one I see. I still don't understand what is taking so long on them.


DirecTV has an expensive HR34 and fairly expensive H2x receivers. If they had cheap RVU-type receivers, they might attract some new customers. If I was in the market for a provider, I wouldn't see the advantage of a powerful, expensive server (HR34) with clients that aren't cost-justified.

As an existing customer with three HD DVRs, replacing one with a HR34 is not going to happen at any price (except free).


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

bakers12 said:


> DirecTV has an expensive HR34 and fairly expensive H2x receivers. If they had cheap RVU-type receivers, they might attract some new customers. If I was in the market for a provider, I wouldn't see the advantage of a powerful, expensive server (HR34) with clients that aren't cost-justified.
> 
> As an existing customer with three HD DVRs, replacing one with a HR34 is not going to happen at any price (except free).


Right new new customers can get three HD receivers for free, can't get much cheaper then that. So for attracting new customers don't see where from a cost point RVU would help gain them based on cost, since they still pay the $6/month fee, RVU or regular STB.


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## bobvick1983 (Mar 21, 2007)

"bakers12" said:


> DirecTV has an expensive HR34 and fairly expensive H2x receivers. If they had cheap RVU-type receivers, they might attract some new customers. If I was in the market for a provider, I wouldn't see the advantage of a powerful, expensive server (HR34) with clients that aren't cost-justified.
> 
> As an existing customer with three HD DVRs, replacing one with a HR34 is not going to happen at any price (except free).


The HR34 is not expensive for new customers. At 99.00 you can't complain.


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## bigtom (Jan 23, 2009)

I will concur with many posters:

-Continued Focus on speed and general responsiveness of current STB software.
-RVU client box deployment to market with HR34. This really adds to the feature list for marketing as "the complete DVR experience" in all rooms with Whole Home.
-HR34+3 RVU client box is a great setup for the standard 4 room install new customer offer. 
-Upgrade paths for long term customers.


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> I can't really suggest anything because, to me, recording all prime time network shows is akin to collecting all the garbage in the neighborhood and taking it home--who cares if you have it all, it's still garbage.
> 
> I think it is another case of Dish aiming for those with mundane tastes while DirecTV caters to those who are more selective.


EXACTLY!

9 out of 43 SL's here are for the so called big 4 networks primetime programming. 1 of those is House, which ends this year and the other is Alcatraz which likely isn't coming back either. So essentially it will soon be 7 out of 41 that will be even remotely interesting.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Beerstalker said:


> Get RVU clients out there is the biggest one I see. I still don't understand what is taking so long on them.


I'm betting they're battling to make them meet Energy Star qualifications. The C30 prototype was around 13% above the V3 criteria and the DECA radio surely constitutes a significant percentage of the power consumption.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bobvick1983 said:


> The HR34 is not expensive for new customers.


There are a lot more existing customers than there will be new customers during the lifetime of the HR34.


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## bobvick1983 (Mar 21, 2007)

"harsh" said:


> There are a lot more existing customers than there will be new customers during the lifetime of the HR34.


I am well aware of that. I was pointing out that if DirecTV is trying to attract NEW customers with the HR34, the price point is reasonable.


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## Go Beavs (Nov 18, 2008)

RAD said:


> Not completely there since DIRECTV doesn't have an RVU client available yet. Without it you can't pause live TV on secondary sets unless they also have a HD DVR or you first start a recording on the HR34 and then play that back. You also don't have centralized ToDo list management with the current implementation. Plus from what reports I've seen the Hopper/Joey's UI performance is VERY quick while the HR34's is lacking in that regard.
> 
> What to do:
> 
> ...


I agree with *RAD*'s assessment here. Especially the ability to pause live TV on an H series receiver.

One thing I was thinking about as an alternative to the USB stick on the H2x receivers would be to implement some sort of "reverse" MRV stream from the H2x receiver back to the HR34. So when you pause, the receiver freezes live TV and buffers back into the HR34 over the network allowing you to pause, FF, and RW without having a "stick" in the H2x. That would keep the tuners on the HR34 open (unlike having RVU functionality in the box) and use trickplay without having to buy a USB stick.

However, I'm just thinking out my a$$ here and this may not even be technically possible. But I think it would be pretty cool!


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

RAD said:


> Not completly there since DIRECTV doesn't have an RVU client available yet. Without it you can't pause live TV on secondary sets unless they also have a HD DVR or you first start a recording on the HR34 and then play that back. You also don't have centralized ToDo list management with the current implementation. Plus from what reports I've seen the Hopper/Joey's UI performance is VERY quick while the HR34's is lacking in that regard.
> 
> What to do:
> 
> ...


Agreed. I also add the ability to see either the HR34 or another HRXX's playlist from the RVU Client ( or additional DVR/Receiver). Currently if they're both (or more) sharing, you have to see them all. There needs to be the ability to select which playlist to access.



RAD said:


> HR34's limit is 100 SL's, not 50.


True, and I've already run up against it, so for me, I'd like to see at least 150.


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## worker (Dec 14, 2008)

1. Get the RVU clients out there.
2. Fix the bugs, improve speed (the HR34 UI performance is slow) 

It's a little tough to position this against Hopper/Joey without some type of client available. They should have been released together. If H24's and H25's could be made to act as clients that would be good.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Print out and tape this to the wall of every developer ...

HR34 ...

1. Speed
2. Speed
3. Speed

4. Never miss a scheduled recording
5. Further exploit the HD interface
6. Drop everything else and get the HR34 perfect
7. Instantaneous Trickplay performance

8. Speed
9. Speed
10. Speed

With 7 TV locations here. 2 HR34, 1 HR24 (backup mostly), and 4 H25s is perfect.

Have no need for massive amounts of unused prime-time recordings. The current method of 5-tuner capability of the HR34 is perfect (for me), just want a very responsive DVR that records everything scheduled and does 3-stream any-to-any MRV to remote receivers.

Still want ...

1. Tactile feel DirecTV Pro Remote. Similar feel to the Tivo Glo Remote.
2. Ability to have a series link locked to a network and time slot.
3. Ability to remotely select an individual DVR with MRV (LIST-LIST).
4. Ability to access an individual DVR via the iPhone and iPad apps for Playlist, Schedule/ToDo, Series Link, Free Space. Similar to TiVo iPad App.
5. Ability to copy/backup series links via USB or Cloud (website or iOS app). Similar to TiVo web-site Season Pass Manager.
6. Ability to copy/move a recording(s) between DVRs for backup or upgrade purposes.
7. nomad iPad native App. Also ability for nomad to manage the individual recordings on the nomad device.

5 tuners, 1TB (220+ HD), PIP, 3 MRV streams is the perfect DVR for me ... just do the above for further perfection.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

worker said:


> 1. Get the RVU clients out there.


Why would anyone want an RVU client for the same monthly cost as a receiver with its own independent tuner that doesnt steal one from the HR34?


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Davenlr said:


> Why would anyone want an RVU client for the same monthly cost as a receiver with its own independent tuner that doesnt steal one from the HR34?


Agree, those 5-tuners are precious, and remember ... RVU clients can not do MRV (for now).


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

In my opinion the HR34 beats the Hopper/Joey in every way. A receiver that can record 5 different channels 24/7, or one that can only record 3 channels 24/7, and all 4 networks during primetime? Add in some H2x receivers if you need them, and each Tv can view HD programming and programming on the HR34 without tying up the HR34's tuners.
If Directv REALLY want to stick it to Dish, they should bring out an 8 tuner DVR. Split the SWM LNB and run the cable to the 8 tuner DVR and the RVU units. If you REALLY want to get fancy, get a SWM16 and pair the 8 tuner DVR up with some H2x receivers. The other thing to do with the 8 tuner DVR is to use wideband tuners like Dish is doing with the Hopper. 2 programs on at the same time that happen to come from the same transponder? Only uses 1 tuner, you can still record 7 other programs. And if those other programs also happen to be on channels that share transponders with other channels being recorded, even better! Throw in a 4 TB hard drive, and it's a MONSTER of a DVR!!!
Another great option would be to release an OTA tuner that can record 4 local stations at once, and doesn't eat up any of the DVR's 8 satellite tuners.
I realize, the hardware for this probably isn't out yet. That would be MY IDEAL setup though.
Then of course, we move onto 4k and 8k resolution lol


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

"Davenlr" said:


> Why would anyone want an RVU client for the same monthly cost as a receiver with its own independent tuner that doesnt steal one from the HR34?


Can't you do trick play with RVU?


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Can't you do trick play with RVU?


Pro: Trickplay for "live" TV. Con: No MRV. I need the later, more then the former. Unless they someday allow both.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

TheRatPatrol said:


> Can't you do trick play with RVU?


Dont know. You can do trick play with the receiver by just hitting record/list/play the show you just hit record on. Seems better to me than losing a tuner. Dont know. Im sure there are some benefits, but since they arent out yet, and no one with a RVU Samsung seems to be posting about the pluses and minuses...


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

I agree with both of you. With a swim8 you can keep all 5 tuners free for recording and still have an additional 3 TV's with their own tuners.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Sixto said:


> Pro: Trickplay. Con: No MRV. I need the later, more then the former. Unless they someday allow both.


By no MRV I guess you mean that the RVU is similar to the Joey in that it has no tuner?


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

lparsons21 said:


> By no MRV I guess you mean that the RVU is similar to the Joey in that it has no tuner?


I was referring to the ability to see a Unified Playlist ("ALL" with combined Playlist for all DVRs in the home).

An Hx2x and HR34 allow MRV to any other DVR.

An RVU client does not (currently), thus an RVU client can not see any recording on any other DVR other then the HR34 that it is currently assigned to. Still an open question as to whether an RVU client can switch HR34 allegiance.

And one clarification, an H2x can do Trickplay for recordings, just not for "live" TV (corrected my post).

For me, MRV is all-important and trumps "live" Trickplay for remote non-DVRs.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Sure DirecTV should go after the Hopper crowd. I think the HR34 beats the Hopper at just about everything except the usual DirecTV problem of performance/response. If DirecTV could find a way to make the HR34 (or any of their receivers) respond as quickly and as consistently as any of the Dish Network receivers I think there would be little reason to even consider the Hopper setup. But, sadly, those troubles seem to be part of DirecTV culture. Even DirecTV’s latest and greatest appears to have the same troubles.

Feature wise the DirecTV HR series - especially the HR34 - has most things covered – a little tweaking here and there in conjunction with the speed of Dish Network receivers and we’d be set. Too much to ask for I guess.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

DirecTV wouldn't need to dedicate a tuner to record "primetime anytime" or re-engineer a mux so it can record an entire multiplex of OTA networks in one shot.

All they need is to beef up the VOD offerings. Include all the hit primetime shows - IN HD, with full instant streaming VOD (a la netflix/ amazon prime style). Why spend millions of dollars on tuners across millions of subscribers when you can invest all that money in back end VOD infrastructure and software development that improves the experience? Put the money in the datacenter where you have control of the environment, rather than as tuners.

Netflix and Amazon instant streaming works on clients of all types both SD (like the Wii) or HD (like blue ray players). I've seen it work down to as little as 2 mbps over 3G - even on devices without hard drives.

It would be amazing if VOD along with a huge primetime library would become available to all HD set top boxes in addition to regular DVR set top boxes. The customer who already has HD equipment would need no initial investment. We all know that no initial investment or start-up costs make it easy for everyone to enjoy. If someone is looking to purchase new equipment, they are more likely to compare that equipment with other options (Dish Network Hopper/joey for example). But update what they already have and make it great, there's no reason to THINK about switching!

Another cool idea would be an RVU client for PC and Mac. This way you could tap into your HR34 on your home computer. I have an office and a PC with dual monitors but no DirecTV box in that room right now. This would be pretty sweet and should work since its all on the network via the Deca ICK. How about an xbox 360 RVU client? xbox has a Comcast and Fios app, as well as works as a media center extender for digital cable users that have a media center PC with a ceton cable card tuner. Using an xbox to tap into your HR34 would be a quick and easy way to get DirecTV to a kids room for example. That's one less DirecTV receiver to purchase, install and support.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

It seems like a waste to dedicate massive amounts of storage to recordings that I may never watch. It's like a super duper WishList, which I've never used Wish's.

As with the HR34, I'd much rather have the 5 independent tuners and use the storage as I see fit.

While it might be nice to be able to go back in time and get a prime-time recording, it's very rare for me, and even then I can easily go get that recording via other sources.

And with the Joey/Hopper, you'd still need series links because that prime-time recording only goes back for a short period of time. I may not get to recordings until well past that time period, and I certainly wouldn't want to be focused on watching within a week. Life is too short to add more time-limited stress, would rather just set up the series links and watch whenever I want, and live with the comfort that my only issue would be if I ever need more then 5 recordings simultaneously, which for me never happens.

With the non-HR34 solution, it provides very little benefit, I still need series links, and I lose a massive amount of storage.

One on the great features of the HR34 is also that I no longer need eSATA storage. 1TB with 220+ HD is fine for me, with two HR34s, 5 tuners for me, and 5 tuners for the family.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

RAD said:


> What to do:
> 
> - Get RVU clients out there. Both dedicated DIRECTV STB's, like the rumored C30, and more CE manufactures to get the client implemented in their TV's.
> - Implement ToDo/recording management on the HR34 from all STB's.
> ...


I think RAD nailed it here. The only change I would make is not limit recording management to the HR34, instead implement it across all HR's.

And yes they need to make it clear in their ads that recording 6 shows is not really 6 shows.


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## dexware (Mar 17, 2012)

kevinturcotte said:


> The other thing to do with the 8 tuner DVR is to use wideband tuners like Dish is doing with the Hopper. 2 programs on at the same time that happen to come from the same transponder? Only uses 1 tuner, you can still record 7 other programs. And if those other programs also happen to be on channels that share transponders with other channels being recorded, even better! Throw in a 4 TB hard drive, and it's a MONSTER of a DVR!!!
> Another great option would be to release an OTA tuner that can record 4 local stations at once, and doesn't eat up any of the DVR's 8 satellite tuners.
> I realize, the hardware for this probably isn't out yet. That would be MY IDEAL setup though.
> Then of course, we move onto 4k and 8k resolution lol


Dish doesn't use wideband tuners. They just record more than just one channel that the tuner is receiving. Normally the receiver picks out the pieces of just the one channel it wants to display.

I used to record the entire MUX on the QAM cable system capturing ABC-HD, CBS-HD, and few SD channels at night. You could extract them out to separate files later or just choose to play one video stream out of the file. Nothing new here.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Sixto said:


> I was referring to the ability to see a Unified Playlist ("ALL" with combined Playlist for all DVRs in the home).
> 
> An Hx2x and HR34 allow MRV to any other DVR.
> 
> ...


I agree about the unified playlist, but for me an additional issue is the lack of a unified todo list/series manager method, or at least let the iPad/iPhone app see the todo list of each DVR in the system. The current method of having to go to the actual DVR involved to set a recording is a PITA.

The HR34 coupled with RVU clients is essentially the same scenario as the Hopper/Joey from a management/use viewpoint.


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## worker (Dec 14, 2008)

Davenlr said:


> Why would anyone want an RVU client for the same monthly cost as a receiver with its own independent tuner that doesnt steal one from the HR34?


Why market the HR34 as a RVU server if there is no value to having RVU clients? I would be fine with RVU clients replacing the H24 in my office and the HR24 in the basement. The clients could be a box or on the Samsung TV's, I don't really care which. I just thought it was one of the big features of the HR34 and if they want to position this against Hopper/Joey it should be similar.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

RVU clients can see the to do list schedule recordings, etc on the HR34. So there's your unified to do list and playlist.

Not very many people will need to be able to record/view more than 5 things at one time. So most homes will be fine with 1 HR34 and multiple RVU clients.

RVU clients may end up being cheaper for subscribers too. I'm hoping that you only have to pay for a max of 3 RVU clients since you will only be able to use 3 at a time anyway. So at my parents house they could have one HR34 and 6 RVU clients. Put the HR34 in the living room, and RVU clients at all other TV locations. They will then be able to watch DirecTV, view any of their recordings, set up recordings, look at the to do list, etc from any room in the house. Albiet they can only do that in a maximum of 4 rooms at once, but since there is only two of them that shouldn't be a problem.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Beerstalker said:


> RVU clients can see the to do list schedule recordings, etc on the HR34. So there's your unified to do list and playlist.


Right now it's only for the HR34 that the RVU client is connected to. Hopefully in the future the RVU clients will be able to see multiple HR34's concurrently, which Dish has said will be coming to their Hopper/Joey system.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

Yes it would be nice for RVU clients to be able to see more than one HR34, but I don't think it's all that neccessary right now. Not very many people are going to need to be able to record/watch more than 5 things at once. I record a lot of stuff between my 3 DVRs, and there are very few times I have 6 recordings going at once, usually 4 is about the max.


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## Jodean (Jul 17, 2010)

besides fixing the recording issues on the hr34

they really need to write a very simple update that allows the other HD boxes to instantly pause if the 34 has available tuners......not that big of a deal as i can do essentially the same thing by pressing about 10 keystrokes on the remote but just to have it do it by pressing pause would be great. Not sure why this isnt done yet.....

Dish's main advantage right now is pressing pause on any tv at any time.


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

I haven't used either but I think that the HR34 is the better solution. It offers basically the same features with less limitations and in a straight forward manner. DirecTV does need to release RVU client to offer the full dvr experience on the other tvs but having your own tuner on a H2x is also pretty handy. It means you always have the option of live TV.

Prime Time Any Time (PTAT) is an interesting way to try to make recording an entire TP marketable to your average customer but from what I read about it there are still a few things that would annoy me.

1) It's either on or off. If it's on it's automatically recording primetime every day and you only have 2 tuners left for other things even if you aren't interested in any of the shows the major networks are showing at that time or even that day. There really needs to be a way to make this more granular especially since you've only got 3 tuners.

2) PTAT only keeps the recordings for 8 days (if you figure 4 channels * 3 hours * 8 days it's almost 100 hours of recordings so it makes sense) and if you don't get around to watching a show you want you have to manually mark that you want to keep it so the dvr copies that one show out of the PTAT stream before it deletes it. Needs to be handled in a more automatic way. Off hand I'd say let you setup which shows to keep automatically and allow you to mark them as okay to be deleted after the 8 days if you've watched them.

I wouldn't mind DirecTV implementing recording a full TP to get the big 4 locals if they could figure out a way to make it more straight forward.

I'd bet that Dishes BOM for the Hopper and joeys is cheaper than a HR34 and H24/25s which is important for them since they push low cost pretty heavily.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

cypherx said:


> DirecTV wouldn't need to dedicate a tuner to record "primetime anytime" or re-engineer a mux so it can record an entire multiplex of OTA networks in one shot...


 For the moment, lets drop the comparison of non-PTAT features that DTV offers and think about what they would have to do to compete head-to-head with H/J.

Changing the mux parameters is no problem. A tech can do that in the time it takes you to read my post. But not only do they have to build hardware that is capable of PTAT, there is a large elephant in the room which is the logistical problem of having the big 4 on the same transponder in each LIL market. They are probably mostly there anyway, and this could be rolled out market-by-market as they become ready, but without rearranging the transponder assignments there can be no PTAT for many of the markets.

Not that this is difficult; they don't have to roll a truck 23,000 miles all the way up to the Clarke belt to do it, but what happens in a particular market if the channels change positions overnight? I think it would require a double forced reboot to get the internal mapping (what frequency/transponder/slot the receiver/DVR tries to access for a particular network channel) to work, and that always spikes trouble call numbers. It might even require a minor software up rev, depending upon how sophisticated the existing software is to rolling with such changes. So, its also not an insignificant undertaking.

And even if they were to compete head-to-head with a H/J product, it is not really a good idea for them to unmuddy the waters regarding head-to-head comparison when you are the competitor that really sucks in the "snappyness" department. They would be smart to offer additional features unavailable with H/J and keep the focus on that instead of on who has snappy DVRs and who has real turkeys. We all know, but potential customers don't need to be reminded of this.

Or, they could just fix the snappyness issue in the first place.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"_but what happens in a particular market if the channels change positions overnight? I think it would require a double forced reboot to get the internal mapping (what frequency/transponder/slot the receiver/DVR tries to access for a particular network channel) to work, and that always spikes trouble call numbers. It might even require a minor software up rev, depending upon how sophisticated the existing software is to rolling with such changes. So, its also not an insignificant undertaking._" - it's pure personal speculation without merit.

No one issue on that: dish constantly changing tpn's parameters, shuffling channels - just see JLong's sticky thread in dish forum.
Each IRD use two tables of each sat/tpn and channel's info, when it get new version (a few times per day), it's just swap pointers and *continue works without reboot*.


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## Rtm (Oct 18, 2011)

harsh said:


> I'm betting they're battling to make them meet Energy Star qualifications. The C30 prototype was around 13% above the V3 criteria and the DECA radio surely constitutes a significant percentage of the power consumption.


.........doesn't appear that hard their 110 degree DVRs are "energy star"


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

If its a tuner count war, Directv needs to highlight that the number of shows recording can be nearly endless. 5, 10, 15 etc by having 1, 2, 3r 3 HR34's. Or combos of 34's and HR2X's


Of course to do this correctly, they need to incorporate recording control across DVR's.
And back up Series Link's and move content from external drives across DVR's on the same account like Dish. 

Don't cherry pick an individual feature, make the solution far more comprehensive.


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## sjohannes (Aug 21, 2006)

Actually the easiest way to compete is stop the whole random replacement of high def DVRS with refurbished equipment that's worse than what someone has. Also they might want to rethink the whole it's cheaper for someone to cancel so we won't offer any reason to stay over sending them a new customer offer after its too late.

If you are existing customer with a simple setup and stuck with old hd-DVRS that are failing and near the end of contract then directv doesn't mind you leaving. As a word of advice directv does not have any desire to retain anyone who doesn't have more than two sets and does not subscribe to Sunday ticket.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rtm said:


> .........doesn't appear that hard their 110 degree DVRs are "energy star"


DVRs are held to a different standard from "client" STBs and as I pointed out, the C30 didn't qualify.

It must not be that easy.

I'd hate to think they haven't released a solution because they can't make it work yet.


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## texasmoose (May 25, 2007)

RAD said:


> - Allow for archival of recordings to a USB (or SATA) drive that can be used on other HR 34's. With a 1TB drive folks will have a bunch of recordings on them and if a HR34 dies they lose them all. With Dish you can copy them to an external drive and then access the recordings on other STB's on the same account.


This *NEEDS* to happen, this is a big deal!


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## texasmoose (May 25, 2007)

Sixto said:


> 1. Tactile feel DirecTV Pro Remote. Similar feel to the Tivo Glo Remote.
> 2. Ability to have a series link locked to a network and time slot.
> 3. Ability to remotely select an individual DVR with MRV (LIST-LIST).
> 4. Ability to access an individual DVR via the iPhone and iPad apps for Playlist, Schedule/ToDo, Series Link, Free Space. Similar to TiVo iPad App.
> ...


ditto on these too................


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## Vinny (Sep 2, 2006)

In my opinion the best way to compete with "The Hopper" is 2 fold:


*Provide all major networks with HD On Demand. *
*Develop "Start Over" feature for major networks and the most popular "cable stations".*
Both above features are available on Time Warner Cable (which I MUST use at my vacation condo since I'm not allowed to put a dish on the roof). I use these features a lot and find them very liberating from having to remember what to record or whenever I'm a little late to begin watching a favorite show. It's nice to "start over" a show if I haven't already set it up to record.


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## rsblaski (Jul 6, 2003)

NR4P said:


> <snip>Of course to do this correctly, they need to incorporate recording control across DVR's.
> And back up Series Link's and move content from external drives across DVR's on the same account like Dish.
> 
> Don't cherry pick an individual feature, make the solution far more comprehensive.


I whole-heartedly agree about external drives being tagged to an account rather than an individual dvr as well as whole home recording control (to-do lists and scheduling).
With 5 tuners providing many with their only source of storage, I would also suggest that they start shipping HR34's with 2 Tb drives.
I currently have two HR2x (both with 2 Tb drives) and an HR34. If all of my current recordings were on the HR34, it would be close to or already full.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

I may get in trouble for saying this, and I do want to add a disclaimer that outside of First Looks, forum posts, and YouTube videos, I have absolutely no experience with the HR34 or the Hopper/Joey systems, but I actually like the Hopper/Joey best.

I'll add a little background information. I have six HD-DVRs. I intend on clearing the rest of one off today and deactivating it next week, and to finish clearing off another one next week... leaving me with four. Over the next couple of months, I intend on emptying off another one leaving me with three. My intention was to then replace ONE of my DVRs with an HR34, but with a lot about my life being uncertain right now, that may not happen, and even then, I'm starting to have my doubts given that it will force me into a two year contract, and I'm not really sure that's a good idea for me. 

The Hopper/Joey only allows two fully controllable tuners... which doesn't sound like much, but I'm in a two person household, and 95% of this home's viewing during primetime hours is on the top four networks outside of the Summer months (that number would change dramatically if my market had a CW affiliate in HD, or if DirecTV or Dish offered HD-DNS for The CW, but no luck there). Add in the fact that neither person in my household watches much LIVE TV, and the tuner situation isn't much of an issue.

The HR34 has FIVE fully controllable tuners. An HR34/C30 setup would not work for me because this is simply NOT ENOUGH tuners for my household. The good news though is that I have HR24s already, so that works out for me. My perfect setup would be two HR34s (one Living Room, one Den), an HR24 (Bedroom #1), and a C30 or HR24 (Bedroom #2). Granted, three HR34s and an HR24 or C30 would be even better, but I'd be very happy with two of them.

*Here's my beefs:*

*HR34:* It only has five tuners.
*Hopper:* It only has three tuners.

*HR34:* RVU Clients still have mirroring fee.
*Hopper:* Joeys still have mirroring fee.

*HR34:* 100 Series Link limit.
*Hopper:* 98 Series Link limit

*HR34:* No archiving solution like Dish.

*HR34:* 1tb hard drive

~Alan


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Alan Gordon" said:


> I may get in trouble for saying this, and I do want to add a disclaimer that outside of First Looks, forum posts, and YouTube videos, I have absolutely no experience with the HR34 or the Hopper/Joey systems, but I actually like the Hopper/Joey best.
> 
> I'll add a little background information. I have six HD-DVRs. I intend on clearing the rest of one off today and deactivating it next week, and to finish clearing off another one next week... leaving me with four. Over the next couple of months, I intend on emptying off another one leaving me with three. My intention was to then replace ONE of my DVRs with an HR34, but with a lot about my life being uncertain right now, that may not happen, and even then, I'm starting to have my doubts given that it will force me into a two year contract, and I'm not really sure that's a good idea for me.
> 
> ...


Just to mention, I believe the hopper has a series limit of 98 I think is what I read...


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Just to mention, I believe the hopper has a series limit of 98 I think is what I read...


The Hopper has a 2TB hard drive, but it's the user doesn't have access to it ALL, do they? I thought it was only 1TB, maybe even a little less?


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> Just to mention, I believe the hopper has a series limit of 98 I think is what I read...


OK... odd number. 

I edited my post to add it...

Not quite as big of a deal to me given that the MAJORITY of my Series Links are for network programming, but I still added it to the list because I don't like it.

~Alan


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

kevinturcotte said:


> The Hopper has a 2TB hard drive, but it's the user doesn't have access to it ALL, do they? I thought it was only 1TB, maybe even a little less?


If the majority of your recording (outside of the Summer months) are network programs, the Hopper comes out ahead... :grin:

~Alan


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

DirecTV needs to do two things to compete against the hopper Joey... First and foremost, it needs to make the hr34 rock solid firmware wise. Second they need to release a rvu client that can connect to multiple rvu servers at the same time. If they do those two things they will have a far more capable system than the hopper Joey....

The tuner being tied up with a rvu client or Joey isn't really an issue if people just record everything they watch. So if that's the case, it's really down to tuners to record on, and the hr34 is more versatile since it isn't limited by the PTAT. I can record a cable show, two sports shows, and two networks at the same time in primetime which I can't do with a hopper.

Now we know that dish is going to make it so two hoppers can work together, which would give it a total of six independent tuners to work with, or a total of nine if you are during primetime and have one of the hoppers recording PTAT... Of course, if you go with two hr34 then you'd have 10 tuners, so I think we can all agree who wins that battle of versatility. 

However, there is at least one big cable company that has said they are bringing out a six tuner dvr late this year.. So these two will both have more competition in this realm.

The true solution IMHO is to bring out a hr38 that has eight tuners, and rvu clients, and can still do mrv and interact with another hr38. 

They really need to up the series limit, 150 to 200 at a min if they can't get rid of the limit completely at this moment.

A new remote would be nice... 

Cloud style backup of all your dvrs settings over the internet would be great. 

Archiving is a great idea, but I am not sure how important it really is. Most people want it in case a unit dies. But if a unit dies, unless you have been backing up your unit all the time already, it won't help, so unless they add the ability to backup to a USB drive automatically every night, I don't think that's as important as it sounds. I'd rather them make available a add on unit that has two drive bays that you can buy and insert your own hard drives into in mirror mode so you can truly have a running backup.

Oh and an eight tuner dvr would completely eliminate the need for any to do list and any concern for arranging the series manager. They could completely eliminate all that nonsense, and go to a playlist design like replaytv used, which was far superior anyway.

Most the other little things people ask for, like being able to lock a series recording to certain times and days of the week, replaytv had all that, and more, and it was so easy to use.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"kevinturcotte" said:


> The Hopper has a 2TB hard drive, but it's the user doesn't have access to it ALL, do they? I thought it was only 1TB, maybe even a little less?


It appears that the hopper has between 500 gigs and 1 tb of space for the user to store their recordings, including PTAT after eight days. No one has been able to confirm how much actual space is available on the hard drive, they only list hours.... They keep a massive amount of space for pushed content.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Alan Gordon" said:


> If the majority of your recording (outside of the Summer months) are network programs, the Hopper comes out ahead... :grin:
> 
> ~Alan


Very true. I can easily find nights when I record 3 to four shows at once on networks, and once in a blue moon maybe even five at once in primetime. However, usually it's closer to three or maybe four, and two to four sports programs. It's the sports that make the hopper doa for me, it's not nearly versatile enough to record the way DirecTV can when it comes to including sports in what you record.

And in the summer months, it'd be worse on some days, now that here are so many decent cable shows on at the same times, but since they repeat, three tuners is generally enough... My biggest issue is that there are times when there are four or more sports on that I want to record at the same time, which means the hopper will never suffice for, but then neither does one hr34 if I have a couple shows n networks at the same time.

Two hr34s plus rvu clients everywhere else is pretty close to ideal for someone like me, that records everything i watch, records a lot of primetime shows, and a lot of sports. Of course, like I said earlier, two eight tuner dvrs is the perfect solution. Zero chance of issues, especially if you had two of them.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> Archiving is a great idea, but I am not sure how important it really is. Most people want it in case a unit dies. But if a unit dies, unless you have been backing up your unit all the time already, it won't help, so unless they add the ability to backup to a USB drive automatically every night, I don't think that's as important as it sounds. I'd rather them make available a add on unit that has two drive bays that you can buy and insert your own hard drives into in mirror mode so you can truly have a running backup.


Back when I had a TiVo Series 2 and upgraded it to a Series 3, I simply copied my programs over to the 3, and then deactivated the Series 2.

When I got my HR24-100, I would have transferred the programming on my HR23-700 over to my HR24-100, and gone from there. When I swapped the HR24-100 I WAS using... the one whose hard drive was going bad, with another HR24-100, it would have been very helpful to have been able to simply copy my programs over.

Add in the fact that DirecTV leases their equipment, and only gives you so many days to send STBs back, it would be a VERY nice feature to have. 

~Alan


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Jodean" said:


> besides fixing the recording issues on the hr34
> 
> they really need to write a very simple update that allows the other HD boxes to instantly pause if the 34 has available tuners......not that big of a deal as i can do essentially the same thing by pressing about 10 keystrokes on the remote but just to have it do it by pressing pause would be great. Not sure why this isnt done yet.....
> 
> Dish's main advantage right now is pressing pause on any tv at any time.


So you think that when you hit pause on a h25 it should just steal a hr34 tuner, automatically start recording the channel the h25 is tuned to on one of its own tuners, start playback of that same show, but start it in paused mode at he exact spot you just hit pause at?

Yeah that sounds easy...

I think it'd be easier to either just record everything you watch and always play it back from the dvr, and at some point to just use rvu clients.... Because thous are things that are easy to do and can be implemented. What you are suggesting is not at all easy or simple to do.

Dish has the advantage because they have their "rvu clients" out right now. However, if you record everything, dish looses that "advantage".


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

"inkahauts" said:


> A new remote would be nice...


......with PIP buttons.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Alan Gordon" said:


> Back when I had a TiVo Series 2 and upgraded it to a Series 3, I simply copied my programs over to the 3, and then deactivated the Series 2.
> 
> When I got my HR24-100, I would have transferred the programming on my HR23-700 over to my HR24-100, and gone from there. When I swapped the HR24-100 I WAS using... the one whose hard drive was going bad, with another HR24-100, it would have been very helpful to have been able to simply copy my programs over.
> 
> ...


Like I said, I am not against it, heck I'd love to see it, id move a bunch of shows right now and deactivate one of my receivers, if not two of them, tomorrow, but I don't think that for the majority of their customers it would be the best solution if you are doing it for backup purposes. I do think something needs to be added though, because we are now putting a lot more eggs in one basket with the hr34.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"TheRatPatrol" said:


> ......with PIP buttons.


Oh I could spend days just designing a proper remote for DirecTV, but they'd never listen to me....


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> Very true. I can easily find nights when I record 3 to four shows at once on networks, and once in a blue moon maybe even five at once in primetime. However, usually it's closer to three or maybe four, and two to four sports programs. It's the sports that make the hopper doa for me, it's not nearly versatile enough to record the way DirecTV can when it comes to including sports in what you record.


Back when we *briefly* mad had The CW in HD, it was not uncommon for me to be recording on five tuners a few nights a week, now four is the most... with a couple of cable programs thrown in, but like you say, they're usually repeated...

Thankfully, I don't watch sports, so no issues there with me... 



inkahauts said:


> Two hr34s plus rvu clients everywhere else is pretty close to ideal for someone like me, that records everything i watch, records a lot of primetime shows, and a lot of sports. Of course, like I said earlier, two eight tuner dvrs is the perfect solution. Zero chance of issues, especially if you had two of them.


Two HR34s would be my perfect setup... given that RVU clients are the same price as two HD-DVRs (at this time), an HR24 would complete the setup... though if there wasn't a fee, I'd be fine with two additional C30s.

~Alan


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> I think it'd be easier to either just record everything you watch and always play it back from the dvr, and at some point to just use rvu clients.... Because thous are things that are easy to do and can be implemented. What you are suggesting is not at all easy or simple to do.


There's been a ton of times where I'd turn on the TV and there'd be a story on The Weather Channel, or one of the local channels where they would be talking about a story that I want to hear. With a DVR, I can just rewind... but without trickplay, I got nothing. 



inkahauts said:


> Like I said, I am not against it, heck I'd love to see it, id move a bunch of shows right now and deactivate one of my receivers, if not two of them, tomorrow, but I don't think that for the majority of their customers it would be the best solution if you are doing it for backup purposes. I do think something needs to be added though, because we are now putting a lot more eggs in one basket with the hr34.


Dish is already doing it...

My motto is, if everyone's jumping off of a bridge, you dang well better do it too! 

Seriously though, I understand that DirecTV is not interested in helping their subscribers KEEP movies from the premium channels or the like. A customer can always go out and buy those movies on Blu-ray. However, I truly believe that in this day and age of leasing receivers and the like, the ability to transfer your programs IS the best way to go about it.

I also think that as much as DirecTV likes to promote their Energy Star ratings, having an external solution like an eSATA drive that requires it to be always on is kind of crappy compared to an external solution that can be turned on and off when one wants to transfer something over...

~Alan


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

BTW... I too second the call for HD VOD for the more channels... especially the networks.

I also think that DirecTV could come up with a similar feature as PTAT...

~Alan


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Alan Gordon" said:


> BTW... I too second the call for HD VOD for the more channels... especially the networks.
> 
> I also think that DirecTV could come up with a similar feature as PTAT...
> 
> ~Alan


Yeah, but don't the networks want to only allow for downloads with commercials you can't skip? If so, it'd be nice to have in a pinch, (say a power outage or the like) but it'd be a total backup and never a norm for me.

I don't see why every cable network wouldn't allow for every one of their shows to be available on demand and in hd.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> Yeah, but don't the networks want to only allow for downloads with commercials you can't skip? If so, it'd be nice to have in a pinch, (say a power outage or the like) but it'd be a total backup and never a norm for me.


NBC and ABC already have SD VOD on DirecTV. I think some cable systems have VOD for the other networks as well.

I personally have no problems with commercials if like you say, I have an issue with the recording (last night's rain comes to mind) or you forget something came on that you wanted to see. I just hate watching SD...

It wouldn't be the norm for me either, though I'd admit I'd watch commercials if it meant that I'd get CW programming in HD.... though perhaps that's why HD isn't available. 



inkahauts said:


> I don't see why every cable network wouldn't allow for every one of their shows to be available on demand and in hd.


Perhaps incentive to watch it live?! I don't know...

~Alan


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

P Smith said:


> "_but what happens in a particular market if the channels change positions overnight? I think it would require a double forced reboot to get the internal mapping (what frequency/transponder/slot the receiver/DVR tries to access for a particular network channel) to work, and that always spikes trouble call numbers. It might even require a minor software up rev, depending upon how sophisticated the existing software is to rolling with such changes. So, its also not an insignificant undertaking._"
> 
> ...Each IRD use two tables of each sat/tpn and channel's info, when it get new version (a few times per day), it's just swap pointers and *continue works without reboot*.


I don't have my P Smith-to-English dictionary handy at the moment, but if I can translate off the cuff, I hadn't considered that, and I think you might be exactly right, P, and that it would then not take a reboot or up rev. Very astute. After all, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The channel mapping is in the bit stream, not in the STB as I had assumed (well, originally in the bit stream, saved in the STB in an EEPROM or the equivalent, and updated via the bitstream on carousel). Change the physical assignments, change the map to reflect that at the same time, and there should be minimal disturbance. Even if the channel has changed while you are not tuned to it, the first time you do tune there it will be done by consulting the map, which has changed as well, assuming the carousel update occurs before you tune there, which is pretty likely to be the case.

And as I originally said, which you quoted, _"depending upon how sophisticated the software is to rolling with such changes_", so I was only a little off base, and probably not far enough off base for you to tag me "out".  But I'll tip my hat, anyway.

Still, there has to be careful choreography regarding those changes to keep the phone from ringing.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"_The channel mapping is in the bit stream, not in the STB as I had assumed (well, originally in the bit stream, saved in the STB in an EEPROM or the equivalent, and updated via the bitstream on carousel)._"
Sure, it always coming from sats (exclude minutes after reboot) - the tables are NIT and SDT for the discussion. 
NIT is updating/refreshing once per day, SDT - each four hours; that's regular schedule; any changes related to the table would force to spool new version of the tables.
Corresponding tables (processed from NIT/SDT, not raw) are reside in RAM in two copies - current version and previous. Switching [carousel is too heavy term for this process] happen by discovering new version.
Similar processing could be done on PC and Uplink reports are posting here and there.


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## Red Orc (Oct 11, 2011)

If anybody should be doing something to compete against the hopper it's Comcast. Their DVRs are not the best...
Direct TV is doing well enough on the technology front to not have to worry about having very many subscribers jumping ship just to get the hopper.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Comcast is developing a six tuner dvr for release this fall/winter according to Comcast themselves.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Red Orc said:


> Direct TV is doing well enough on the technology front to not have to worry about having very many subscribers jumping ship just to get the hopper.


My HR23-700 is still WAY TOO SLOW. Not as slow as it used to be, but still way too slow. The good news is that I mainly use the HR24-100s, and intend on getting rid of the HR23-700 soon.

I'm still trying to figure out if I will be staying with DirecTV much longer, BUT if the HR23-700 was my only STB, it'd make the decision that much easier.

That being said, I really don't see many subscribers jumping ship for the Hopper either... though I could see some concern for the effect it might have on new customers.

~Alan


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## Red Orc (Oct 11, 2011)

inkahauts said:


> Comcast is developing a six tuner dvr for release this fall/winter according to Comcast themselves.


Fall/Winter of which decade?
As far as I know they still haven't finished their nationwide rollout of the Spectrum DVR!


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Comcast is developing a six tuner dvr for release this fall/winter according to Comcast themselves.


What's the software like for Comcast? I know with Time Warner, they could develop a 20 tuner DVR, and I STILL wouldn't want the thing, running the GARBAGE software!!!


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## Red Orc (Oct 11, 2011)

Alan Gordon said:


> My HR23-700 is still WAY TOO SLOW. Not as slow as it used to be, but still way too slow. The good news is that I mainly use the HR24-100s, and intend on getting rid of the HR23-700 soon.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out if I will be staying with DirecTV much longer, BUT if the HR23-700 was my only STB, it'd make the decision that much easier.
> 
> ...


Thtat's also my biggest complaint about my HR21-700. That thing is *S -L - o - w* with a capitol S. Over the weekend it was averaging 6-7 seconds to open the guide and the recordings list.
Unfortunately I'm still under contract so unless I want to serve DTV up a $500 ETF I'm stuck. Unless I drop DTV down to the lowest programming package & go back to Comcast. Uverse isn't available in my area yet and neither is fios so it's between DTV DISH Comcast and nothing.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Red Orc said:


> Thtat's also my biggest complaint about my HR21-700. That thing is *S -L - o - w* with a capitol S. Over the weekend it was averaging 6-7 seconds to open the guide and the recordings list.
> Unfortunately I'm still under contract so unless I want to serve DTV up a $500 ETF I'm stuck. Unless I drop DTV down to the lowest programming package & go back to Comcast. Uverse isn't available in my area yet and neither is fios so it's between DTV DISH Comcast and nothing.


Where I live it's just DirecTV, DISH, or OTA. I still don't don't know if I'm going to stick with DirecTV, and if so, for how long, but if I leave DirecTV, it'll be OTA, so my choices aren't really an issue thankfully.

I like my DirecTV service a lot, but the cost isn't cheap, and I need to cut down my TV viewing. I haven't made up my mind what I'm going to do, but I'm quite thankful that I don't really have to put up with the HR23 much anymore. 

~Alan


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## Red Orc (Oct 11, 2011)

kevinturcotte said:


> What's the software like for Comcast? I know with Time Warner, they could develop a 20 tuner DVR, and I STILL wouldn't want the thing, running the GARBAGE software!!!


It isn't terrible. It's just old out-dated and confusing. If you are looking for a program to watch there's one menu for that. If you're looking for a particular program to record there's a different menu option for that. And they aren't even in the same menu - IIRC they were in completely different menus. I'm prety sure there was also a set=up menu that could only be accessed when the DVR was powered off. I don't remember what it was for just that was some kind of set-up menu. I don't remember the DVR being any where nearly as slow as the DTV DVR I have now.
There wern't any where nearly as many adjustment settings available on the DVR either. You could recored two programs at a time or record one while watching a different one. The UI wasn't terrible just weird and confusing and cumbersome. I like their remote *a lot* better than DTV's. On the DTV remote if you push "cancel" while you're watching a program it stops it playing. Comcast doesn't do that.


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## Red Orc (Oct 11, 2011)

Alan Gordon said:


> Where I live it's just DirecTV, DISH, or OTA. I still don't don't know if I'm going to stick with DirecTV, and if so, for how long, but if I leave DirecTV, it'll be OTA, so my choices aren't really an issue thankfully.
> 
> I like my DirecTV service a lot, but the cost isn't cheap, and I need to cut down my TV viewing. I haven't made up my mind what I'm going to do, but I'm quite thankful that I don't really have to put up with the HR23 much anymore.
> 
> ~Alan


That's kind of the boat I'm in. DTV is so expensive it isn't funny. What sucks about it so much is that if I already have phone & internet with Comcast. If I add TV it will only add about $50 to my bill for the fist year. But I can't really afford to subscribe to both and I don't have $500 sitting around collecting dust for DTV's ETF.I do really like DTV but they seem to be going out of their way to bleed us dry lately...


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Red Orc said:


> That's kind of the boat I'm in. DTV is so expensive it isn't funny. What sucks about it so much is that if I already have phone & internet with Comcast. If I add TV it will only add about $50 to my bill for the fist year. But I can't really afford to subscribe to both and I don't have $500 sitting around collecting dust for DTV's ETF.I do really like DTV but they seem to be going out of their way to bleed us dry lately...


How do you figure $500 for an ETF fee? It starts out at $480 and is reduced $20 for each month that yov've had service.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

After seeing the DirecTV Everywhere first look that is linked on the front page of DBSTalk, I think DirecTV can really compete if they move this technology into the receivers.

Think Video on Demand but without the need for download time, reserving hard drive space, or heck even having a DVR in every room. I'd love to tap into VOD in my bedroom (H24-200) or Family Room (H21-100). I'm watching Game of Thrones via HBOGo on xbox 360 and the quality is good plus its instant click and play (like Cable VOD) rather than DirecTV's click and download, back out of the menu, go to list, see if enough buffered, etc... Try teaching that to a woman who's grown up with Comcast. It never gets used.
So what, trickplay is thumbnails. Still works fine. Verizon Fios DVR shows thumbnails with their "Chaptering" feature, so I know a set top box can generate thumbnail graphics.

More content in more places, instantly from Tablets to PC's to Smartphones, to your TV. 

This would really compete. More people could even pay for VOD if it's accessable on Non-DVR's. More potential purchases, more money for DirecTV. Its really a win-win situation.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"cypherx" said:


> After seeing the DirecTV Everywhere first look that is linked on the front page of DBSTalk, I think DirecTV can really compete if they move this technology into the receivers.
> 
> Think Video on Demand but without the need for download time, reserving hard drive space, or heck even having a DVR in every room. I'd love to tap into VOD in my bedroom (H24-200) or Family Room (H21-100). I'm watching Game of Thrones via HBOGo on xbox 360 and the quality is good plus its instant click and play (like Cable VOD) rather than DirecTV's click and download, back out of the menu, go to list, see if enough buffered, etc... Try teaching that to a woman who's grown up with Comcast. It never gets used.
> So what, trickplay is thumbnails. Still works fine. Verizon Fios DVR shows thumbnails with their "Chaptering" feature, so I know a set top box can generate thumbnail graphics.
> ...


They will always prefer you download a movie vs stream it off their boxes, it allows them to present a much better and more consistent pq to all their subscribers.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

inkahauts said:


> They will always prefer you download a movie vs stream it off their boxes, it allows them to present a much better and more consistent pq to all their subscribers.


I'm just saying offer it as an option. It was on a $5.99 HD movie pay per view. There was a question to play right away or download in higher quality. But that should come up for everything, not just the pay stuff but things like HGTV, DIY Network, E!, Discovery, ABC, NBC, HBO, Starz, etc...

But then on a non DVR it could just stream.

Yeah Netflix would like to deliver content in best quality too, as would HBO via the HBOGo platform, or Amazon via Amazon prime... but guess what it all works, including DirecTV Everywhere via ipad and web browser (just tried it and it works). Also I couldnt believe how good the HBOGo quality was on my xbox. Ok only 2.0 sound, but the picture was very good for only my 12mbps connection. I checked my router graphs and I was pulling about 8mbps of my 12mbps connection.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"cypherx" said:


> I'm just saying offer it as an option. It was on a $5.99 HD movie pay per view. There was a question to play right away or download in higher quality. But that should come up for everything, not just the pay stuff but things like HGTV, DIY Network, E!, Discovery, ABC, NBC, HBO, Starz, etc...
> 
> But then on a non DVR it could just stream.
> 
> Yeah Netflix would like to deliver content in best quality too, as would HBO via the HBOGo platform, or Amazon via Amazon prime... but guess what it all works, including DirecTV Everywhere via ipad and web browser (just tried it and it works). Also I couldnt believe how good the HBOGo quality was on my xbox. Ok only 2.0 sound, but the picture was very good for only my 12mbps connection. I checked my router graphs and I was pulling about 8mbps of my 12mbps connection.


Hey I'm not disagreeing but their past actions speak to their decisions in this regard.

That option, I believe it's to choose between 720p and. 1080i/p

I expect the next couple Satas they launched will help them push a ton more movies to people.

I suspect that we will see more channels pop up as time goes on too.


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## Red Orc (Oct 11, 2011)

RAD said:


> How do you figure $500 for an ETF fee? It starts out at $480 and is reduced $20 for each month that yov've had service.


Really? 
Thanks for the info. I didn't know that they reduced the ETF every month.That makes the decision a lot easier.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

P Smith said:


> "_The channel mapping is in the bit stream, not in the STB as I had assumed (well, originally in the bit stream, saved in the STB in an EEPROM or the equivalent, and updated via the bitstream on carousel)._"
> Sure, it always coming from sats (exclude minutes after reboot) - the tables are NIT and SDT for the discussion.
> NIT is updating/refreshing once per day, SDT - each four hours; that's regular schedule; any changes related to the table would force to spool new version of the tables.
> Corresponding tables (processed from NIT/SDT, not raw) are reside in RAM in two copies - current version and previous. Switching [carousel is too heavy term for this process] happen by discovering new version.
> Similar processing could be done on PC and Uplink reports are posting here and there.


Good to know. Thanks for that.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> They will always prefer you download a movie vs stream it off their boxes, it allows them to present a much better and more consistent pq to all their subscribers.


Possibly. The movie studios are scared $#!+less regarding downloads, and would rather you stream the movie. Of course this is based on pure superstition and the incorrect assumption that this significantly lessens the ability to pirate the movie (it doesn't). But until they wake up, it is much easier for DTV (or NetFlix, for that matter) to make a deal with Sony Pictures for a streaming model rather than a DOD model.

The problem with all of this is how narrow the pipe is, how far it doesn't extend, and the pressure of cable MSOs and DBS companies to keep you from cutting the cord and watching content on a $40 internet subscription vs a $100 video channel package subscription.

DOD doesn't mean much to rural america. Streaming doesn't mean much to areas unserved at all by the internet. And over 30% of ALL INTERNET TRAFFIC during prime time is accountable to one source: NetFlix. Streaming during prime time is horrible in most areas, just because of the sheer number of users sharing the bandwidth. They have much better luck at 2 AM, but that's because most of them are asleep, and dreaming rather than streaming at 2 AM.

I would personally be very happy with a model where internet with limited bandwidth (1-2 mbps) could be used to download a 2-hour movie overnight when I was asleep and dreaming for 8 hours, that I could then watch during the next 48 hours before it expired. Charge me a buck for a TV show, a buck and a half for a movie.

That is not a piracy threat at all; I'm not sure why movie studios aren't embracing that unless they are trying to protect theatre owners. They could encrypt just like DBS does, and they could put subscriber-specific metadata into the copy to track piracy attempts directly back to the pirate the same way Apple does it with iTunes.

It doesn't have "on demand" availability, but I think most folks could find a way to live with that if they had low-cost low-throughput internet, and the quality would be better than streaming has been to date on anything less than about 10 mbps.

In many ways, that's actually more convenient than RedBox.


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## texasmoose (May 25, 2007)

RAD said:


> - Allow for archival of recordings to a USB (or SATA) drive that can be used on other HR 34's. With a 1TB drive folks will have a bunch of recordings on them and if a HR34 dies they lose them all. With Dish you can copy them to an external drive and then access the recordings on other STB's on the same account.


This is a big deal! We were 1 of the unlucky ones that got a possessed hmc & now with over 50% capacity it would take my wife almost 2 months to watch all of the shows. If we had the aforementioned we could archive & then upload to replacement hmc. PLEASE MAKE THIS A REALITY.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> DIRECTV's HR34 is a great DVR with 5 HD tuners that allow it to record anything, anytime.


What does that mean? Can't any DVR record "anything anytime"?



> Dish's Hopper has 3 fulltime tuners but one of them is used during primetime to record 4 shows at once.


What does that mean? What is a "fulltime" tuner? And how can one of those "3 full time tuners" be used to record 4 shows at once?


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> What does that mean? Can't any DVR record "anything anytime"?
> 
> What does that mean? What is a "fulltime" tuner? And how can one of those "3 full time tuners" be used to record 4 shows at once?


Dish's Hopper has 3 tuners. However, during primetime, 1 tuner is dedicated to recording NBC, ABC, CBS, and FOX (It can do this on 1 tuner, this is one of it's main selling points). If you turn this feature on, it will do it every night, and during primetime, you will only have 2 other tuners available to record other channels.
The HR34 can record 5 different channels at once, anytime.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Dish's Hopper has 3 fulltime tuners but one of them is used during primetime to record 4 shows at once.


What does that mean? What is a "fulltime" tuner? And how can one of those "3 full time tuners" be used to record 4 shows at once?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> What does that mean? What is a "fulltime" tuner? And how can one of those "3 full time tuners" be used to record 4 shows at once?


Is there an echo in here? Look above, you got your answer.


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## Jerry_K (Oct 22, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> Is there an echo in here? Look above, you got your answer.


The poster wants to know HOW one tuner records four channels at the same time.

Just guessing but it is multiplexing somehow.

Kind of like our satellite signal strength screen. All of the available LNB configurations are shown on one tuner. So that tuner is getting multiple channel information. It is sorting it by LNB configuration so if it wanted to it could record it one configuration at a time for many channels.

Personally I would need to know a lot more about how one could sort that so that shows would be kept. Many times we leave our system recording for a week at a time when we are not there. We would want only those shows that are germaine. The hopper could not know that and for sure it would have to delete something before we could move it to the protected portion of the drive.

BOO on that.

I did see that you can turn off the feature. At that point it is far inferior to the HR34. Just another DVR and with less tuners.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Jerry_K said:


> The poster wants to know HOW one tuner records four channels at the same time.


Satellite receivers tune the whole transponder when you tune in a channel. There may be 1 to ~20 channels on that one transponder. You can either extract the single channel you want before sending it to the hard drive/video output, or you can record the whole transponder and extract the channel you want.

Obviously, space wise, unless you WANTED all the channels on one transponder recorded, extracting the single channel before saving to disc would be much more efficient.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

"cartrivision" said:


> What does that mean? What is a "fulltime" tuner? And how can one of those "3 full time tuners" be used to record 4 shows at once?


It means out has three tuners just like any other DVR. However, during prime time one is dedicated to recording the four networks. It can't bee used for live viewing because it's pulling in the four streams. I don't know if it's
A special stream or if it's multiplexing four individual streams but it results in four recordings.

Mike


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

An HR34 with more content (HD channels) and a better HD on demand library would compete fine against the harper. (I know its hopper - I just love that commercial).

Instant streaming would be cool too. Some HDUI tweaks like different view options may appeal to the techies, but other than that the people want something easy to use with the content they want to watch.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

cartrivision said:


> What does that mean? Can't any DVR record "anything anytime"?...


Certainly it can. If you are fuzzy on the concept of PTAT and how the DISH system works, it is easy to get distracted by posts claiming that other DVRs can record "anything anytime". That's hardly the point, and those posters know it. Seems much more like a sour-grapes defense of the home team and an attempt to muddy the waters more than anything helpful to those who might be interested in it.

First, PTAT refers to playback, not recording. It takes the recording aspect for the big 4 during PT completely out of the hands of the user; it does all of the recording for you, and more importantly it _manages_ all of the recording for you, which is the entire idea of what makes this concept attractive to those who watch a lot of PT, which is a large universe of viewers. Regardless of what it might be able to record, what's really important is that the Hopper can _play back any part of PT from the previous 8 days_ (of the big 4 nets) any time, without the user ever lifting a single finger to record or program anything. So PTAT is a sort of on-demand service, except the content is cached locally rather than remotely somewhere.

I always thought that the real significant advances that Tivo brought us (other than trick play and better rercord quality for DBS) were the on-board database for recordings, and the ability to record programs rather than time slots. I watch some shows every week, but I don't have a clue when they are actually broadcast because I don't have to. That is a convenience Tivo brought us: transparency allowing us to ignore the broadcast/cablecast schedule. But we still have to set up SPs/SLs.

PTAT is the new significant advance; now recording PT shows at all is conveniently taken care of for us. You don't even have to know if any particular show is even scheduled at all. If you are a big PT watcher, that is huge. If the hot co-worker at the water cooler says "Did you see that new show _The Firm_ on NBC last night?" and you have never even heard of it, you already have it if you want to check it out. You can even tell her that your new assistant already has that completely covered for you, and that you'd be happy to have her over to watch it together. Kismet.

The HR34, lovely as it is, can't do anything like that, so I fail to see why folks are trying to compare it. There really is no comparison; they are two significantly-different approaches to what two significantly-different types of users might want. Except that the Hopper also can revert back to being a conventional 3-tuner DVR if that suits you better, which broadens its appeal.

The first thing to do is decide what kind of viewer you are. If you like lots of prime time, the Hopper makes a tremendous amount of sense, and the HR34 makes a lot less sense. If you don't record more than a handful of PT shows a week, then the HR34 might actually make more sense, but it is still an apples and oranges comparison.

About 70% of what I record is PT, and the other 30% is from other channels. I can't recall ever wanting to record more than 2 other programs other than PT on the big 4 during PT, and since the Hopper approach has that covered, I would love to see that offered by DTV. instantly, 70% of the busywork of programming the DVR is history, as is missing PT programs I forgot to schedule. I'll take two, thankyouverymuch.



cartrivision said:


> What does that mean? What is a "fulltime" tuner? And how can one of those "3 full time tuners" be used to record 4 shows at once?


Technically, what makes the two approaches different is that a conventional DVR demultiplexes (parses out) a single program from the 4 HD programs available in the transport stream coming from the spot beam transponder, and records that separately from anything else (if you want more than one of those programs, you need a separate tuner and record path available to accomplish that, along with a conscious effort expended by you to make it happen), while the Hopper approach records all 4 programs by recording the entire transport stream from that single transponder, and demuxes out the program you want to watch at playback instead. It simply moves the demux stage later in the game, letting you decide which programs you might want to watch from all of the PT programs available, rather than being limited to just the ones you might have remembered to record. That's a quantum leap in the application of existing technology. Steve Jobs would be proud.

Forget about what it records that you don't watch, just like you can forget about what it doesn't record that you don't watch. There's plenty of room and that stuff ages out on its own, completely transparently to the user. Simple, and clever. The technology has been here all along; bringing it to consumers might prove to be revolutionary.

With luck, that approach will become common. Instead of being razzle-dazzled by technology we don't quite understand, like sheltered darkest Africa pygmies being astounded by an iPad or a set of shiny car keys, a Hopper-like DVR will become ubiquitous; just another appliance to make life easier, before you even know it, just like your toaster.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Mike Bertelson said:


> It means out has three tuners just like any other DVR. However, during prime time one is dedicated to recording the four networks. It can't bee used for live viewing because it's pulling in the four streams. I don't know if it's
> A special stream or if it's multiplexing four individual streams but it results in four recordings.
> 
> Mike


Just to clarify, a tuner is different from a record path or a playback path. A tuner is only a module that converts an RF carrier to an IF frequency. A record path includes a tuner, a demodulator to convert the IF to baseband, a demultiplexor to cull out the desired program and throw away everything else in the transport stream (except for PTAT), and a HDD. A playback path includes the HDD, a decoder, and possibly a D-to-A module for component (and a demux for the Hopper). You can put those together in various combinations to create a simple block diagram for any DVR.

If you simply want to count tuners, even the HR20 has four of them, two ATSC and two DVB. But is has only two record paths, and only one playback path (until you invoke double play). So counting tuners sort of misses the mark if used to assess what a DVR is capable of. Comparison of how many record paths it can mount at once makes a lot more sense.

The stream is not special, its the same stream you record today. It creates one recording, but of the entire transport stream, which can contain multiple programs.


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## 34290Mem (Apr 3, 2012)

4 x HR24 w/ MRV.


Directv FTW.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

I'm actually seriously considering a switch from DirecTV to DISh, and it's only partially about the hardware. Yes, the DirecTV DVRs can be anywhere from sluggish to painfully slow, but a few extra seconds here or there isn't a killer for me.

The big draw for our household to DISH is the packages that are available. We watch primarily network television, but we have a handful of other channels that we don't want to give up at this point. To get those channels with DirecTV, I have Choice Xtra Classic, for $68.99 a month. I can get the channels we want with DISh for $49.99 a month (regular price - for the first year it's even cheaper). Because the channels other than network don't number more than a handful, a single hopper and 3 joeys will suffice for our needs. We have multiple DVRs now only so that on certain nights we can record 2 network and 1 "other" channel. With PTAT, the two other tuners will handle anything else we want/need.

For us, the directv offerings (hardware wise) would be "OK" if the value (programming wise) matched up with DISH.

Obviously, I realize that the packages are created in such a way to (hopefully) maximize both profit to the company and value to the customer. _For the programming that we watch_, DISH has accomplished that balance better than DirecTV has.

So, simply based on the needs of our own household, DirecTV could compete with the Hopper/Joey by improving their programming packages.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

i am already hating the hopper is the stupid commercials. I hate hate the one with all the people in the house yelling out Hopper hopper hopper. Then the one with the guy who says im recording 4 prime time shows and im not doing anything. Then jumps out of the car to prove he is not doing anything. SO STUPID.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

I agree. Presentation is very important. It would be a shame if DISH could not capitalize on a clear advantage by shooting themselves in the foot with bush-league promotion. They would do both themselves and potential customers no favors.

That said, as much as I am really liking the Hopper concept, my 8-year history with DISH will easily keep me from ever jumping ship. DTV would have to really screw the pooch first. I'd rather stay in bed with the devil I know and program the DVRs myself than let the DISH unit do it and go through the hassle of handing my money over to incompetent nincompoops.

DTV isn't perfect, maybe not even great. They're still the best.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

TomCat said:


> I agree. Presentation is very important. It would be a shame if DISH could not capitalize on a clear advantage by shooting themselves in the foot with bush-league promotion.


You hit Guide on your satellite DVR and nothing happens.
When nothing happens, you hit the button again.
When you hit the button again, you get strange unwanted screens
When you get strange unwanted screens, you post rants on DBSTalk
When you post rants on DBSTalk, all your friends disown you.
When all your friends disown you, you take a handful of pills and die.
Dont take a handful of pills and die.

Get HOPPER now. Nothing is faster than a Kangaroo.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

Davenlr said:


> You hit Guide on your satellite DVR and nothing happens.
> When nothing happens, you hit the button again.
> When you hit the button again, you get strange unwanted screens
> When you get strange unwanted screens, you post rants on DBSTalk
> ...


LOL great take on DTV commercials


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## 34290Mem (Apr 3, 2012)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I'm actually seriously considering a switch from DirecTV to DISh, and it's only partially about the hardware. Yes, the DirecTV DVRs can be anywhere from sluggish to painfully slow, but a few extra seconds here or there isn't a killer for me.


Go to Channel 1 (customer information channel) and press (in this order):

red,red,blue,blue,yellow,green

not too fast, not too slow. If done correctly, you'll see a message at the bottom left corner of your screen saying something like "NVRAM/Cache cleared..." (it's really tough to read).

Once that is done (may take a few tries to even see the message), do a soft reset with the red reset button on the dvr.

Should give you those few seconds back.


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## usnret (Jan 16, 2009)

How much hard drive space does the Hopper take/use when it's doing the 4 channel recording thing? Reason I ask is that we record a lot of "other channel" stuff (A&E, Bravo etc.) on the 34 too.


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## txtommy (Dec 30, 2006)

I don't remember *ever* wanting to record 6 channels at one time. In fact it is seldom that I care about recording more than 1 channel. I don't care to watch 90% of what is on network tv and even though I do have a few shows set to record, most go unwatched now. With more recordings there would just be more to go unwatched. I would have no use for the Hopper.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

txtommy said:


> I don't remember *ever* wanting to record 6 channels at one time. In fact it is seldom that I care about recording more than 1 channel. I don't care to watch 90% of what is on network tv and even though I do have a few shows set to record, most go unwatched now. With more recordings there would just be more to go unwatched. I would have no use for the Hopper.


Same here. I too watch very little network television. I do record the handful of shows I watch so I can skip through the annoying commercials and view on my schedule. Same applies to my wife's viewing habits. Rarely does the need arise to record more than one channel at the same time. The bulk of my recordings are movies that are unavailable on Bluray or DVD.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

"usnret" said:


> How much hard drive space does the Hopper take/use when it's doing the 4 channel recording thing? Reason I ask is that we record a lot of "other channel" stuff (A&E, Bravo etc.) on the 34 too.


1TB of protected space. User has 500GB for everything else. That can be augmented with external drives. Unlike D*, external drives with Dish add to your existing space rather than replace it.

If you don't care about network tv, you can turn off PTA. I personally like the feature as well as having a very fast, always responsive DVR. I have a lot less timers to manage now.


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## photostudent (Nov 8, 2007)

ibooksrule said:


> i am already hating the hopper is the stupid commercials. I hate hate the one with all the people in the house yelling out Hopper hopper hopper. Then the one with the guy who says im recording 4 prime time shows and im not doing anything. Then jumps out of the car to prove he is not doing anything. SO STUPID.


I am betting you do not hate this ad as much as the marketing dept at Direct does. As entertaining as the current Directv ads are, they are way short on specifics. On the other hand, as I sit here with a two tuner HR21, the possible ability to record six channels on a "Hoppa" sounds awful good. Unless Dish has some Apple like factories I do not see how they are going to meet demand.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

"ibooksrule" said:


> i am already hating the hopper is the stupid commercials. I hate hate the one with all the people in the house yelling out Hopper hopper hopper. Then the one with the guy who says im recording 4 prime time shows and im not doing anything. Then jumps out of the car to prove he is not doing anything. SO STUPID.


I agree, I can't stand them either. The two I did watch, it didn't seem clear that recording 6 things at once was limited. maybe it was in the fine print.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

dpeters11 said:


> I agree, I can't stand them either. The two I did watch, it didn't seem clear that recording 6 things at once was limited. maybe it was in the fine print.


Love 'em or hate 'em, but remember them. And that is exactly what Dish has done with these ads. They've made people talk about the Hopper, even if they have no clue what it actually is. And after talking, they are calling Dish it seems.

Exactly what you want an ad to do! 

Few ads make you want to buy, they just want you to know more.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

txtommy said:


> I don't remember *ever* wanting to record 6 channels at one time. In fact it is seldom that I care about recording more than 1 channel. I don't care to watch 90% of what is on network tv and even though I do have a few shows set to record, most go unwatched now. With more recordings there would just be more to go unwatched. I would have no use for the Hopper.


You may not remember wanting to record 6 channels at once, but I sure do! And the only time I ever needed more than 3 tuners was because of PT shows on broadcast channels.

I could easily replace my 3 HR24s with one Hopper and one Joey and never miss a recording. And talking to others outside of these SAT forums, they would find the Hopper/joey every bit as useful and complete as the HRs.


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

ibooksrule said:


> i am already hating the hopper is the stupid commercials. I hate hate the one with all the people in the house yelling out Hopper hopper hopper. Then the one with the guy who says im recording 4 prime time shows and im not doing anything. Then jumps out of the car to prove he is not doing anything. SO STUPID.


If ads irritate you, especially to the point of writing about them, they are quite effective. So, not stupid at all.

And, it's "hoppah"!

BTW, I've seen and lived a Southie accent long enough, and the ads are irritating to me now also.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

I've never heard any coworkers refer to the Hopper commercials in conversation. I have however heard them talk about winding up in a ditch with an eyepatch. And they have cable.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

dpeters11 said:


> I've never heard any coworkers refer to the Hopper commercials in conversation. I have however heard them talk about winding up in a ditch with an eyepatch. And they have cable.


Well first of all, I don't have any coworkers, all my close friends are like me, retired! You know the 'every day is a Saturday' crowd!! :lol:

The last D* commercials we've discussed were the ones with the cute little animals and mostly centered around the giraffe.

And yes, we do discuss these kinds of things. When you play 18 holes almost every day, you have more time than conversation topics, so you have to dig up a few now and then.


----------



## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

34290Mem said:


> Go to Channel 1 (customer information channel) and press (in this order):
> 
> red,red,blue,blue,yellow,green
> 
> ...


IN my experience, a reset is completely unnecessary. And if you do, it's better to do a menu reset when you can.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

34290Mem said:


> Go to Channel 1 (customer information channel) and press (in this order):
> 
> red,red,blue,blue,yellow,green
> 
> ...


Been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt.

What help it provides is marginal, at best. My 2 HR20's and HR21 are still "sluggish" at their best. Slow to respond to keypresses almost every step of the way, sometimes to the point that you have to walk away and let them do whatever the heck it is that their doing and hope that when you return they'll be "responsive" again. Beyond that, the idea that I should have to jump through hoops to have a reasonable modicum of speed leaves a bad taste in my mouth, anyway.

But, as I said, that's the secondary issue to the fact that the pricing structure of DISH is, for my needs, more attractive.


----------



## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

You guys are making it sound like D* should have taken advantage of all 8 SWiM tuners and made an 8 tuner DVR instead.


----------



## VDP07 (Feb 22, 2006)

lparsons21 said:


> Well first of all, I don't have any coworkers, all my close friends are like me, retired! You know the 'every day is a Saturday' crowd!! :lol:
> 
> The last D* commercials we've discussed were the ones with the cute little animals and mostly centered around the giraffe.
> 
> And yes, we do discuss these kinds of things. When you *play 18 holes almost every day*, you have more time than conversation topics, so you have to dig up a few now and then.


Ahhhh....Paradise! Fingers crossed, 10 more years and I'll be joining you.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"34290Mem" said:


> Go to Channel 1 (customer information channel) and press (in this order):
> 
> red,red,blue,blue,yellow,green
> 
> ...


No no no. Do not ever do a red button reset one DVR unless it's frozen and won't respond to the remote. Go into the menu, settings, reset, restart receiver. That is much much better for the machine. A red button reset is not a soft reset, it's a hard reset. The menu reset is the soft reset.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"mdavej" said:


> 1TB of protected space. User has 500GB for everything else. That can be augmented with external drives. Unlike D*, external drives with Dish add to your existing space rather than replace it.
> 
> If you don't care about network tv, you can turn off PTA. I personally like the feature as well as having a very fast, always responsive DVR. I have a lot less timers to manage now.


Where did you get that info? The hopper is supposed to have a 2tb hard drive, so you math doesn't work.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> Where did you get that info? The hopper is supposed to have a 2tb hard drive, so you math doesn't work.


Memory, memory  http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2981529&postcount=13


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

inkahauts said:


> No no no. Do not ever do a red button reset one DVR unless it's frozen and won't respond to the remote. Go into the menu, settings, reset, restart receiver. That is much much better for the machine. A red button reset is not a soft reset, it's a hard reset. The menu reset is the soft reset.


I cautioned about this earlier today.

However, I don't share the view that it's a terrible no-no! I did hundreds of them- actually unplugging the unit until I found this board; no problems. Back when a reset would trigger a Guide flush.

Still, menu reset is better, at least in theory.


----------



## Barry in Conyers (Jan 14, 2008)

Not that it has anything to do with how DirecTV should complete against the Dish hopper, but there is no reason for well written firmware to constantly need resetting / restarting / rebooting.


----------



## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Dish reboots nightly by design unless they changed it with Hopper.


----------



## Red Orc (Oct 11, 2011)

Davenlr said:


> You hit Guide on your satellite DVR and nothing happens.
> When nothing happens, you hit the button again.
> When you hit the button again, you get strange unwanted screens
> When you get strange unwanted screens, you post rants on DBSTalk
> ...


----------



## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

"inkahauts" said:


> Where did you get that info? The hopper is supposed to have a 2tb hard drive, so you math doesn't work.


It does have a 2TB drive. I'll try to find the source for the PTA and user space. I don't know what the missing 500GB is for, so I didn't mention it.

I think Hopper reboots nightly to check for updates supposedly.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

mdavej said:


> It does have a 2TB drive. I'll try to find the source for the PTA and user space. I don't know what the missing 500GB is for, so I didn't mention it.
> 
> I think *Hopper reboots nightly to* check for updates supposedly.


To clean memory leak due to many SW bugs; no necessity to do that for guide or FW updates.


----------



## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> No no no. Do not ever do a red button reset one DVR unless it's frozen and won't respond to the remote. Go into the menu, settings, reset, restart receiver. That is much much better for the machine. A red button reset is not a soft reset, it's a hard reset. The menu reset is the soft reset.





Laxguy said:


> I cautioned about this earlier today.
> 
> However, I don't share the view that it's a terrible no-no! I did hundreds of them- actually unplugging the unit until I found this board; no problems. Back when a reset would trigger a Guide flush.
> 
> Still, menu reset is better, at least in theory.


It's not a terrible no-no. A robust hardware and software design, which is what any consumer device should be, will not be adversely affected by a hard reset. Power does fail and the device must be able to handle that with ease - so pulling the power cord or pushing a hard reset button shouldn't be any more difficult. It uses XFS - a journalling filesystem that survives this kind of thing with ease. If D* has issues with these kinds of things then it is because their software is *not* as robust as it should be. I've never experienced a problem with it and I pull the power after every software update.



Barry in Conyers said:


> Not that it has anything to do with how DirecTV should complete against the Dish hopper, but there is no reason for well written firmware to constantly need resetting / restarting / rebooting.


Agreed.

Doubtful any of these kinds of devices can honestly claim to be as robust as they should be.



dpeters11 said:


> Dish reboots nightly by design unless they changed it with Hopper.


That's a good one - by design :nono2:

Only by design to mask the rest of the bad design.


----------



## Ira Lacher (Apr 24, 2002)

Has anyone suggested that to illustrate to subs how great their HR34s are, simply offer to upgrade all subs to the new boxes?


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Ira Lacher said:


> Has anyone suggested that to illustrate to subs how great their HR34s are, simply offer to upgrade all subs to the new boxes?


They already do that...

... for $399. 

~Alan


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"unixguru" said:


> It's not a terrible no-no. A robust hardware and software design, which is what any consumer device should be, will not be adversely affected by a hard reset. Power does fail and the device must be able to handle that with ease - so pulling the power cord or pushing a hard reset button shouldn't be any more difficult. It uses XFS - a journalling filesystem that survives this kind of thing with ease. If D* has issues with these kinds of things then it is because their software is not as robust as it should be. I've never experienced a problem with it and I pull the power after every software update.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> ...


My mIan point is people need to stop telling everyone a rbr is just fine and that's it's a soft reset, because it's not.

Tell me, do you believe it's good form to hard reset a computer while it's downloading data? Because that's what you do if you do a hard reset on a sat box. It's always downloading guide data, not to mention what other things it might be doing in the background. Can you make a workaround for that, sure, but why make the machine do more work, and probably take up more resources to fix an issue that was created simply because someone hit the red button instead of using the menu reset option? Especially when we know it needs to use its resources as wisely as possible.

No I have never had an issue with doing a hardware reset either, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done that way.


----------



## Ira Lacher (Apr 24, 2002)

$399 ... nothing. $399 ... nothing.

The Hopper is better.


----------



## BAHitman (Oct 24, 2007)

Hopper - record 6 things at once (up to 4 of those you probably don't want)
HR34 - Record 5 things at once (all of those are things you want) - I like this one

seems clear to me...


----------



## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

BAHitman said:


> Hopper - record 6 things at once (up to 4 of those you probably don't want)
> HR34 - Record 5 things at once (all of those are things you want) - I like this one
> 
> seems clear to me...


Might be clear to you, but the general population watches a hell of a lot of broadcast TV and they might be a better target market for the Hopper/Joey than the power users. Especially considering they outnumber us by quite a bit.


----------



## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

What I SERIOUSLY think Directv should do is come out with a 16 tuner SWM LNB. Have an 8 tuner HD DVR. Scrap the RVU clients and come out with An H30 receiver that has a single tuner, can do MRV, and has a small hard drive in it for Trickyplay of Live Tv. Other manufacturers can come with RVU client Tvs if they wish, and for people that truly want a room without a receiver, this will work.
This ALSO beats Dish's Hopper. At most, that can record 6 channels at once during prime time. The 8 tuner DVR could record all 4 local channels during prime time, and still have 4 tuners left over for other channels.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

BAHitman said:


> Hopper - record 6 things at once (up to 4 of those you probably don't want)
> HR34 - Record 5 things at once (all of those are things you want) - I like this one
> 
> seems clear to me...


Let's not forget, and I haven't seen it mentioned here or I just skimmed over it, that the hopper only keeps those recordings for 8 days. With the HR34 you can keep them as long as you want and have space.


----------



## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

BAHitman said:


> Hopper - record 6 things at once (up to 4 of those you probably don't want)
> HR34 - Record 5 things at once (all of those are things you want) - I like this one
> 
> seems clear to me...


Me too. I don't like it when the DVR records things I don't tell it to record. That's the reason I turn off TiVo Suggestions on every unit I've owned. If I want prime-time network shows I'll take care of that. I have alternate means of entertainment if I find nothing has been recorded overnight.

Hopper/Joey... Maybe DirecTV could come up with a whole home DVR system where the components are named after "Seinfeld" characters. "Let's see what's on the 'Kramer' tonight".

And as far as the $399 offer goes, there's a thread on these boards where an existing DISH customer got the exact same quote when he called about H&J. You have to be out of commitment, a valued customer, and willing to change providers most of the time to get the best offer. Personally I don't really want a renewed commitment. Yeah, the HR2xs I have aren't the greatest, but I'm not certain I'm going to stay w/ DirecTV after my account reactivates in late August. I have no doubt that I won't go to DISH Network due to lack of HD locals and RSNs. I know there are those for whom it's a perfect fit, but not for me.


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

RunnerFL said:


> Let's not forget, and I haven't seen it mentioned here or I just skimmed over it, that the hopper only keeps those recordings for 8 days. With the HR34 you can keep them as long as you want and have space.


You can manually save those recordings beyond 8 days.

~Alan


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Alan Gordon said:


> You can manually save those recordings beyond 8 days.
> 
> ~Alan


Actually, just set a recurring recording for what you want as well as the PTAT and it will record it and save it every time without using any more tuners.


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

lparsons21 said:


> Actually, just set a recurring recording for what you want as well as the PTAT and it will record it and save it every time without using any more tuners.


That too... 

Personally, I think if _(insert satco here)_ came out with a six-tuner (at the very least) HMC with a super-fast elegant GUI, PTAT, and a robust HD VOD selection, _(insert satco here)_ would have a killer piece of hardware.

As it is, I still think both have their pluses and minuses.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

I thought the user space on the Hopper was 500GB?, and isn't that MPEG2?

HR34 is mostly 1TB usable, 220+ hours of HD. I'm assuming that the user area is somewhere about 100MB, and everything is MPEG4.

While RVU can do "live" Trickplay, an H25 client doesn't steal a tuner, can do recording Trickplay, and can do MRV to any DVR if you have more then one DVR. Much more flexible, and has been mentioned a few times, the 5 tuners are independent.

Once they get a nice clean firmware for the HR34, you really can't beat the HR34/H25 combination, other then maybe a cache to do "live" Trickplay.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"lparsons21" said:


> Might be clear to you, but the general population watches a hell of a lot of broadcast TV and they might be a better target market for the Hopper/Joey than the power users. Especially considering they outnumber us by quite a bit.


I don't think that's a good way to put it. There is no way you can say that power users are the ones watching cable channels and non power users are the ones watching network tv, which is what your post suggests.

And as I mentioned before, it's really split in half between cable and networks. I thinks there is a very large segment of the general population that will find the hopper attractive, but just as big a general market segment that will find the HR34 attractive.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"kevinturcotte" said:


> What I SERIOUSLY think Directv should do is come out with a 16 tuner SWM LNB. Have an 8 tuner HD DVR. Scrap the RVU clients and come out with An H30 receiver that has a single tuner, can do MRV, and has a small hard drive in it for Trickyplay of Live Tv. Other manufacturers can come with RVU client Tvs if they wish, and for people that truly want a room without a receiver, this will work.
> This ALSO beats Dish's Hopper. At most, that can record 6 channels at once during prime time. The 8 tuner DVR could record all 4 local channels during prime time, and still have 4 tuners left over for other channels.


Rvu clients with a 8 tuner DVR is fine, no need for tuners in the clients at that point, for the vast vast majority of people. the whole point of rvu is to lower costs of clients in general, and adding a tuner back in defeats the purpose.


----------



## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Sixto said:


> I thought the user space on the Hopper was 500GB?, and isn't that MPEG2?


It is 500GB and does not include the space used by PTAT. And all Dish HD is MPEG4, the 250 hours of HD supposedly is based on that. SD can be either MPEG4 or 2 depending on which arc you are on. Eastern arc is all MPEG4.



Sixto said:


> HR34 is mostly 1TB usable, 220+ hours of HD. I'm assuming that the user area is somewhere about 100MB, and everything is MPEG4.
> 
> While RVU can do "live" Trickplay, an H25 client doesn't steal a tuner, can do recording Trickplay, and can do MRV to any DVR if you have more then one DVR. Much more flexible, and has been mentioned a few times, the 5 tuners are independent.
> 
> Once they get a nice clean firmware for the HR34, you really can't beat the HR34/H25 combination, other then maybe a cache to do "live" Trickplay.


I don't know what the user space is on the HR34 so I can't address that.

As to the flexibility, yes the D* solution is more flexible at the price of management of recordings. But is the right solution for those that don't watch/record much broadcast or like a lot of live viewing, imo.

As to that nice clean firmware, well as far as I and a lot of users are concerned, we're 6 years and waiting to see that on any of the HRs. They had it right for a very short time with the HR24s before they 'upgraded' to the HDGUI. Otherwise it has all been slow. 

IMO, D* needs to get a unified todo list and series manager out soon. And I don't mean D* 'soon' either!!


----------



## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Sixto said:


> I thought the user space on the Hopper was 500GB?, and isn't that MPEG2?


I know Eastern Arc is all MPEG4. That's how they get like 20 - 22 SD channels on one transponder. And since they use Ku Band the rain fade margins aren't as bad as Ka band. So they can also take a chance on 8PSK modulation w/ Turbo FEC, which allows them to push as many as 8 HD channels on one Transponder. I know you do the TP checking for DirecTV and You never see that many channels on 1 tp. Not as long as they stick to Ka and standard QPSK.


----------



## dexware (Mar 17, 2012)

I highly doubt they are using QPSK on their KA satellites.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

lparsons21 said:


> As to that nice clean firmware, well as far as I and a lot of users are concerned, we're 6 years and waiting to see that on any of the HRs. They had it right for a very short time with the HR24s before they 'upgraded' to the HDGUI. Otherwise it has all been slow.


I'm not going to say that the HRxx GUI is my favorite UI I've ever used, because it's not, and I can certainly understand one's irritation at older boxes, but I'm :eek2: at your HR24 comment.

I think the HR24s are perfectly acceptable in regards to their speed.

~Alan


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

dexware said:


> I *highly* doubt they are using QPSK on their KA satellites.


Any reason for that strong opinion ? Any facts ?


----------



## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm not going to say that the HRxx GUI is my favorite UI I've ever used, because it's not, and I can certainly understand one's irritation at older boxes, but I'm :eek2: at your HR24 comment.
> 
> I think the HR24s are perfectly acceptable in regards to their speed.
> 
> ~Alan


It took me a moment to answer as I was waiting for my HR24 to respond to my remote!


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

lparsons21 said:


> It took me a moment to answer as I was waiting for my HR24 to respond to my remote!


WOW...

Aside from a couple of times when I think my HR24 was doing some background actions, mine have been quite responsive.

~Alan


----------



## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Alan Gordon said:


> WOW...
> 
> Aside from a couple of times when I think my HR24 was doing some background actions, mine have been quite responsive.
> 
> ~Alan


Which hasn't been my experience, here's how I see it at my house.

1. Got 3 new HR24-500s with SDGUI. Nice and fast, good remote response. Not quite as fast as the Vip722k I traded out, but nearly so. I even said so in a number of posts at the time.

Enter the HDGUI:

1. At first it was sluggish as hell, 59E fixed most of that, although there are still too many instances of 'please wait' or some such. Not bad though.

2. But with 59E, now it is hit or miss with the remote. Enough to notice it and quite a few times in a normal evenings viewing time.


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

lparsons21 said:


> Which hasn't been my experience, here's how I see it at my house.


I don't want to continue being off-topic, so I'll just say that's disappointing.

It's not as fast as it once was, but I don't have a single complaint about the speed I've experienced.

~Alan


----------



## irlspotter (Dec 14, 2006)

A password protected Set-up screen - In order to make any changes to any of the settings, I would have to enter a master password

A Client Permission Screen, instead of just share and delete with all other receivers. I might want to limit who can do what.
Share with clients: Yes (then menu below is shown) or No, then it acts stand alone.


CLIENT	View	Record	Delete
Bedroom H25	X	X	
Basement H25 X	
Office HR21 
In the above scenario, The Bedroom client can view and record content, but not delete recordings. The Basement can record content to this server, but the Office has no access at all to anything on this server.

The ability to Delete-From-Start-To-Here in a recording, or Delete-From-Here-To-End in a recording. I record a show, usually a sports program. It starts late and I pad it to record an extra hour. For example, it is scheduled to record at 1:00 PM until 3:00 PM, and I say start at 1:00 PM, but end recording 1 hour later at 4:00 PM. When I watch the program, it didn't actually start until 1:40 PM, so I have 40 minutes of recording at the beginning that I don't need to save, and it actually ends at 3:25 PM, so I have 35 minutes of stuff I do not need at the end of the recording. That is 75 minutes of wasted space. Or say, I only want to save 10 minutes in the middle of a sports event. Why can't I just pause at a spot and use one of the two options, Delete-From-Start-To-Here or Delete-From-Here-To-End.

Fix the channels I get, so it actually displays the channels I subscribe to.

Have the quick tune option correspond to a favorites list.

Deny access to You Tube or Pandora, by receiver.

Have the recent searches correspond to a favorites list. Your searches do not intermix with my searches.

Dan


----------



## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

irlspotter said:


> A Client Permission Screen, instead of just share and delete with all other receivers. I might want to limit who can do what.
> Share with clients: Yes (then menu below is shown) or No, then it acts stand alone.
> 
> 
> ...


I have been mentioning this idea (or variations thereof) since WHDVR began, and stated it's importance even more after the First Look for the HR34 was released.

~Alan


----------



## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> My mIan point is people need to stop telling everyone a rbr is just fine and that's it's a soft reset, because it's not.


Agree it's not a soft reset. Why should a consumer care?

It's sad that the M$'s of the world have conditioned people to accept the kind of garbage software that is susceptible to these issues.



inkahauts said:


> Tell me, do you believe it's good form to hard reset a computer while it's downloading data? Because that's what you do if you do a hard reset on a sat box. It's always downloading guide data, not to mention what other things it might be doing in the background. Can you make a workaround for that, sure, but why make the machine do more work, and probably take up more resources to fix an issue that was created simply because someone hit the red button instead of using the menu reset option? Especially when we know it needs to use its resources as wisely as possible.


I've been a (mostly Unix) software engineer for 30 years developing enterprise-grade systems so I do know what I'm talking about. Reliability is reliability. Power fail or button reset it matters not.

XFS is one of the bullet-proof class.

Having said all that, why get off the couch to push a button if you don't have to?


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

usnret said:


> How much hard drive space does the Hopper take/use when it's doing the 4 channel recording thing? Reason I ask is that we record a lot of "other channel" stuff (A&E, Bravo etc.) on the 34 too.


Just over 500 GB (and only when there are 2 Sundays in the mix). But it saves it to a 1 TB partition you otherwise have no access to anyway, which means you will have just as much space available with PTAT turned off as you would with PTAT turned on. If you watch any PT at all, even one show, you have more space with PTAT on than you do with PTAT off, because with it off you have to save to the 1 TB user partition. How much space PTAT takes is therefore a complete non-issue.


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

lparsons21 said:


> Love 'em or hate 'em, but remember them. And that is exactly what Dish has done with these ads. They've made people talk about the Hopper, even if they have no clue what it actually is. And after talking, they are calling Dish it seems.
> 
> Exactly what you want an ad to do!
> 
> Few ads make you want to buy, they just want you to know more.


I was with you all the way to the last line, which could not have missed the mark more completely. No one buys ad time to be informative. As a veteran of broadcasting, which invented airtime ad sales, I can attest firmly that there is no room for altruism in this business model, nor does it coexist there.

Whether is is an ad for a particular product or an image ad or anything in between, every ad sold has one goal and one goal only: to get the viewer to eventually, one way or another, cough up more money than it cost them to deliver the ad to you, and this includes even the local furniture store owner that uses it as a vehicle to get his girlfriend on TV. Its an investment, but one that they most definitely are betting will pay off.

And I vigorously disagree that this is "what you want an ad to do", BTW.

Can you imagine what an ad like this would do to iPad sales? Instead of 30 million units in Q1 it would be more like 20 million units, and some serious rethinking of every other potential buy of an Apple product. I'd much rather have a Richard Dreyfuss or Peter Coyote voice-over bring me to tears regarding an autistic kid reaching out via the iPad than something as cartoonish as the direction that DISH seems to be going. Yecchhh!


----------



## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

I did a fair bit of advertising myself, so I'm well aware of what ads are supposed to do. And yes, the hope is the ad will make you want to buy. But few ads really do that.

What they do is pique your interest enough to either ask questions, do a bit of research or call the company placing the ad. The E* Hopper ads are doing a fine job of that.

It isn't altruism, nor is it much in the way of actual information, but it is the impetus to hopefully get you to buy after you've done a little checking around.


----------



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

unixguru said:


> Agree it's not a soft reset. Why should a consumer care?...
> 
> I've been a (mostly Unix) software engineer for 30 years developing enterprise-grade systems so I do know what I'm talking about. Reliability is reliability. Power fail or button reset it matters not.
> 
> ...


You have common sense and meaningful experience and training on your side, but you are going up against urban legend and superstition with no facts backing them up. Who should win? Obvious. You have the "10,000 hours" that makes you an expert 6 times over. Who will prevail? Human nature says superstition. There's no talking to someone who has his mind made up, even if it is made of mush.

So what really happens when you pull the plug? All R/W ceases. That's it.

What happens when you RBR? The OS force quits any hung routines, and then, you guessed it, all R/W ceases.

What happens when you menu reset? A command to cease all tasks (but allowing them, to finish to a break-off point) is sent. The tasks finish, and what happens next? All R/W ceases. (yawn)

So what is the DVR doing that is so all-fired important when it gets rudely interrupted? Well, recording, which we intend to interrupt anyway, and background indexing, which can be safely interrupted and begins again after reboot. So, nothing in particular, really.

The difference between RBR and menu reset is that RBR is a force quit and the menu reset is a request to quit. Not much different. It should not cause the loss of a recording because a recording happens in chunks, and the DB is already written to regarding the program (which you are interrupting anyway).

There is a slight risk with yanking the power, in that if in the write mode (which it is about 20-40% of the time, depending) bits can spray into sectors not originally targeted, which can corrupt the odd recording (or torpedo the OS, or the DB of recordings). That is serious, but the risk is pretty small.

But I agree, journaling (which is basically writing yourself a list of instructions so you know where to pick up if you get rudely interrupted) makes menu reset and RBR pretty much identical as far as risk. After all, what designer in their right mind would put an inviting red button on the front of their DVR that had any potential at all to cause problems? Not a one. It does not cause problems, it solves problems.

Be lazy, try the menu reset. If it hangs, RBR. If it still hangs, yank the power (you have larger issues anyway and not many other choices at that point).

Maybe the RBR is there because they knew that the DVRs would be so sluggish that no one would have the patience to wait for the menu to appear. But then fixing that by adding a manual reset button is like putting electrical tape over your "Check Engine" light.


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## Red Orc (Oct 11, 2011)

lparsons21 said:


> I did a fair bit of advertising myself, so I'm well aware of what ads are supposed to do. And yes, the hope is the ad will make you want to buy. But few ads really do that.
> 
> What they do is pique your interest enough to either ask questions, do a bit of research or call the company placing the ad. The E* Hopper ads are doing a fine job of that.
> 
> It isn't altruism, nor is it much in the way of actual information, but it is the impetus to hopefully get you to buy after you've done a little checking around.


I disagree. Those Hopper commercials are _extremely_ irritating. The _last_ thing those commercials do is make me want to subscribe to DISH _or_ find out what the heck a hopper is. The only thing those commercials make me want to do is change the channel or maybe hit the skip button on the remote. The only reason I even know what a hopper is is because of this thread.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

TomCat said:


> What happens when you RBR? The OS force quits any hung routines, and then, you guessed it, all R/W ceases.


That would mean that D* is an extremely unusual implementation.

Since I didn't design the D* I can't say for 100% certainty but in any device I've been exposed to (many) that has a reset button (not many) that button is a hardware master reset which means an electrical signal pulls a reset on the CPU (like an interrupt) which immediately sends it to the same low-level firmware routine that boots after power-up. (A lot of implementations actually have hardware that holds that signal until the power supply has stabilized to prevent a boot attempt too soon after power is applied.) Software (O/S) gets absolutely NO chance to do ANYTHING.

When you think about it, it has to be that way. If you're resetting because the O/S is hosed you sure don't want the O/S to do anything - which probably wouldn't work anyway (and remain hung).

See watchdog timer for more related gritty hardware/OS business.

In fact, that button may be even more severe than a power fail. Power supplies have elements that hold some small bit of reserve power and can notify the software of a "power fail" event and then provide just a tiny bit of additional power to keep things running long enough for the software to do a minimal amount of cleanup. (If the given platform supports such a thing.)



TomCat said:


> There is a slight risk with yanking the power, in that if in the write mode (which it is about 20-40% of the time, depending) bits can spray into sectors not originally targeted, which can corrupt the odd recording (or torpedo the OS, or the DB of recordings). That is serious, but the risk is pretty small.


Extremely unlikely with modern drives. They also know the power is failing. I believe all drives designed for mobile use (notebooks, etc) make a point of pulling the heads entirely off the platters to prevent head/platter damage from shock. Done as the power is fading. Ceasing writes is easy in comparison and can be done long before the head can stray.



TomCat said:


> Be lazy, try the menu reset. If it hangs, RBR. If it still hangs, yank the power (you have larger issues anyway and not many other choices at that point).
> 
> Maybe the RBR is there because they knew that the DVRs would be so sluggish that no one would have the patience to wait for the menu to appear. But then fixing that by adding a manual reset button is like putting electrical tape over your "Check Engine" light.


Agree. *Menu then RBR then power is best practice.*

 Yep - how many things have reset buttons these days!

By now D* software should be good enough to remove the button from future hardware. Although I really do like the improvements with the new HDUI I remain of the opinion that the core software is still not as robust as it should be.

You're 1000% on target about human nature.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Red Orc said:


> I disagree. Those Hopper commercials are _extremely_ irritating. The _last_ thing those commercials do is make me want to subscribe to DISH _or_ find out what the heck a hopper is. The only thing those commercials make me want to do is change the channel or maybe hit the skip button on the remote. The only reason I even know what a hopper is is because of this thread.


However irritating, it seems to be quite successful; we are all talking about it.

Also, Mr. Parsons indicates it is getting results- any cites of sites?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> However irritating, it seems to be quite successful; we are all talking about it.
> 
> Also, Mr. Parsons indicates it is getting results- any cites of sites?


I don't have any except the usual suspects, you know here and the 'other site'. But the discussions are showing up in various and sundry other places too on occasion.

Heck, even my golfing buddies, a slew of old farts that play most days, have brought up the subject. And while walking the course is about 2.5-3 hours which leads to lots of discussions on various subjects, generally the subject of a Sat TV provider doesn't come up very often. Usually just a discussion of various shows we have watched.

The ads are effective, possibly even more effective than the D* ads that only mention D* at the very end with lots of non-info leading up to it.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks. Love the DIRECTV® ads, until about the fourth showing. The Hoppah ads were fabulous the first two times through, now FF. But I lived in Boston area a couple of years, and I love regional accents. 

Discuss amongst yourselves: Don is/is not pronounced the same as Dawn.....


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## bobvick1983 (Mar 21, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> And all Dish HD is MPEG4,


All DirecTV HD is MPEG4 as well. They shut off all of the leagcy MPEG2 some time back.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Posts here seem to ignore the real capabilities of the Hopper/Joey SYSTEM. I have 2 Hoppers and 2 Joeys with 3 HDTVs (the extra Joey gives me whole home intregation until Hopper integration software is implemented. Joeys can see and program both Hoppers and see their respective external drives. I have 6 tuners, one is on PTAT. I can record 6 programs at once, or 9 at once during prime time. PTAT recordings are erased after 8 days, BUT if you set timers for PTAT programs, recordings are kept beyond the 8 days without using the other tuners, or you can just "save" the ones you didn't set timers for.

Capacity - 500g each Hopper for user recordings. 500g each Hopper dedicated for PTAT, the rest of the 2t drives are reserved for VOD and Dish use. In addition each Hopper can be connected to 2 2t EHDs. User recordings can be transferred to those drives and played as easily as if they were on another internal drive, or the drives can be disconnected and saved as an archive. So, let's see I have a total of 5t of user recording space active to read. 

No DVR allocates all space to user recordings. Dish's 2t drive give 500g to users and 500t to PTAT. The 500g user space hold 250 hours of HD. Doesn't DirectTV promise 200 hours of HD on the 1t HR34 drive?

I'm surprised how fast and trouble free it's been.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"TomCat" said:


> You have common sense and meaningful experience and training on your side, but you are going up against urban legend and superstition with no facts backing them up. Who should win? Obvious. You have the "10,000 hours" that makes you an expert 6 times over. Who will prevail? Human nature says superstition. There's no talking to someone who has his mind made up, even if it is made of mush.
> 
> So what really happens when you pull the plug? All R/W ceases. That's it.
> 
> ...


After getting through your needlessly rude portion of your post, I have decided that you are basically saying a force quit and a request quit are the same thing. That sounds about the same as saying using your foot brake in a car is the same as pulling on the emergency brake. They will both work, but they are not exactly the same. and how do you know hitting the red button isn't more like pulling the power cord? Never mind, you obviously don't know... There's no talking to someone if they have their mind made up, even if it's made of mush...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> After getting through your needlessly rude portion of your post, I have decided that you are basically saying a force quit and a request quit are the same thing. That sounds about the same as saying using your foot brake in a car is the same as pulling on the emergency brake. They will both work, but they are not exactly the same. and how do you know *hitting the red button isn't more like pulling the power cord*? Never mind, you obviously don't know... There's no talking to someone if they have their mind made up, even if it's made of mush...


I would assure you - *it's the same from OS [Linux] wise perspective* (little different from HW standpoint, but it's irrelevant in the discussion).

ADDED: I forgot to mention about other approach - similar to select Restart item in System menu: soft reset by holding Power button like dish made on many their boxes: hold the button for 10 seconds and OS will gets the signal, will flush all buffers with updates to HDD and then will restart. There is little variation of the method - for PAL DVR [TR50] you could hold Power button on remote for the 10 seconds with same result; well that DVR doesn't have any button, so using remote is only one way do soft reset.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

patmurphey said:


> Posts here seem to ignore the real capabilities of the Hopper/Joey SYSTEM. I have 2 Hoppers and 2 Joeys with 3 HDTVs (the extra Joey gives me whole home intregation until Hopper integration software is implemented. Joeys can see and program both Hoppers and see their respective external drives. I have 6 tuners, one is on PTAT. I can record 6 programs at once, or 9 at once during prime time. PTAT recordings are erased after 8 days, BUT if you set timers for PTAT programs, recordings are kept beyond the 8 days without using the other tuners, or you can just "save" the ones you didn't set timers for.
> 
> Capacity - 500g each Hopper for user recordings. 500g each Hopper dedicated for PTAT, the rest of the 2t drives are reserved for VOD and Dish use. *In addition each Hopper can be connected to 2 2t EHDs*. User recordings can be transferred to those drives and played as easily as if they were on another internal drive, or the drives can be disconnected and saved as an archive. So, let's see I have a total of 5t of user recording space active to read.
> 
> ...


Actually - up to *four* EHD 2 TB each could be connected to 922 or 813 [h2k] models.

[Your HDD size notations is ... umm ... egh ... inconvenient, so you doing mistake by yourself]


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"patmurphey" said:


> Posts here seem to ignore the real capabilities of the Hopper/Joey SYSTEM. I have 2 Hoppers and 2 Joeys with 3 HDTVs (the extra Joey gives me whole home intregation until Hopper integration software is implemented. Joeys can see and program both Hoppers and see their respective external drives. I have 6 tuners, one is on PTAT. I can record 6 programs at once, or 9 at once during prime time. PTAT recordings are erased after 8 days, BUT if you set timers for PTAT programs, recordings are kept beyond the 8 days without using the other tuners, or you can just "save" the ones you didn't set timers for.
> 
> Capacity - 500g each Hopper for user recordings. 500g each Hopper dedicated for PTAT, the rest of the 2t drives are reserved for VOD and Dish use. In addition each Hopper can be connected to 2 2t EHDs. User recordings can be transferred to those drives and played as easily as if they were on another internal drive, or the drives can be disconnected and saved as an archive. So, let's see I have a total of 5t of user recording space active to read.
> 
> ...


DIRECTV keeps 100 gigs for its own use, everything else is available to the user, no matter how big a hard drive you use.

You can accomplish your setup with two HR34 and you actually don't need a second Joey, although I know you won't with DISH either at some point, in theory. The only main difference at the moment is that dish is more flexible with the added hard drives and management of series links, while DIRECTV is far more flexible with its tuners and how you access and playback recordings.

They both have their pluses and minuses. What I want to see is where we are at in one year. If things fall the way I expect, the DIRECTV system should be far superior, but I think DISH will take the edge this summer for a while assuming they get their software together and out as they say they will... Although if they limit it to two hopers, then actually, they will never have an edge IMHO.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

My bad, I'm using 5t, I should have said max 9t, I understood 2 2t each with direct connections, I forgot using a hub could allow more. Anyway you have access to more than anyone would need on EHDs.

The "t" in 500t was a typo.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> ...Although if they limit it to two hopers, then actually, they will never have an edge IMHO.


They are permitting more Hoppers to those who have more TVs, but only 2 at a time can be linked as whole house without juggling an extra Joey or 2 - for those with money to spare.

I'm using my extra Joey on a different HDMI input with a one click switch on a Harmony remote to the other Hopper.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

patmurphey said:


> My bad, I'm using 5t, I should have said max 9t, I understood 2 2t each with direct connections, I forgot using a hub could allow more. Anyway you have access to more than anyone would need on EHDs.
> 
> The "t" in 500t was a typo.


FYI, using capital letters for measuring units means more then 1, while opposite - decimal parts of 1.
That mean 1 TB would be 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, than 1 tb would be 1/1,000,000,000,000th of byte.
So, don't make more typos, please.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Don't I know it :nono: You should see some of the junk email I get here at work. My favorite are the ones addressed to Mr Dawn Bolton with subjects regarding women's career tools and seminars.

Don "not Dawn" Bolton



Laxguy said:


> Thanks. Love the DIRECTV® ads, until about the fourth showing. The Hoppah ads were fabulous the first two times through, now FF. But I lived in Boston area a couple of years, and I love regional accents.
> 
> Discuss amongst yourselves: Don is/is not pronounced the same as Dawn.....


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Technically speaking I believe Direct has abetter offering but aside from us geeks here most folks buy benefits. Direct TV needs to come up with an equally catchy marketing blitz, let the dishheads attack the extra tuner and just ad an Astrix footnote or link to address that actuality.

People don't normally buy what they need rather what they think they want and that's often a seed planted by some annoying marketing ploy.

Something akin to the MCP and Conscripts taking a high tech over played image to create both the high tech "need" and the link to remember what and why two minutes later.

Something different but the same. Putting simpleton branding out there pays dividends.

Don "a significant, value-added, productivity enhancement" Bolton


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## Jerry_K (Oct 22, 2006)

Having lived in campgrounds for the last year and a half, I can tell you that for the moveable crowd DirecTV needs to push hard. You only have to watch one person trying to find signal with Dish to thank the powers that be you have DirecTV. I just wish the DirecTV DVRs had a tone when signal is obtained. Would make my job a whole lot easier. 

Our son switched to dish a few years ago. His wife will never ever let him forget it either. She is a wonderful gal, but the Dish system really gets her going. It is truly arcane and very hard to get used to. I have no idea how one sets up recordings. And multi room viewing does not work with the regular dish equipment.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

Jerry_K said:


> Having lived in campgrounds for the last year and a half, I can tell you that for the moveable crowd DirecTV needs to push hard. You only have to watch one person trying to find signal with Dish to thank the powers that be you have DirecTV. I just wish the DirecTV DVRs had a tone when signal is obtained. Would make my job a whole lot easier.
> 
> Our son switched to dish a few years ago. His wife will never ever let him forget it either. She is a wonderful gal, but the Dish system really gets her going. It is truly arcane and very hard to get used to. I have no idea how one sets up recordings. And multi room viewing does not work with the regular dish equipment.



Are you saying Tailgater doesn't work?

Last time I set up a recording I either pressed record or searched, same as I do with DirecTV, and the HD interface looks better. Hardly arcane.


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## jdskycaster (Sep 1, 2008)

Yes, I have to admit pressing the record button while watching a show or finding a future show in the guide and selecting it is a fairly tough process 

Can someone verify that with DTV all you have to do is think about recording the show and the DVR does the rest for you? Can you also then play it back without ever touching even one button? If so, I am ready to switch back to DTV as long as it does not take two lifetimes to respond to my commands.

As for the advertisements they are doing exactly what Dish intended. Last Sunday being the single busiest day in church parking lots across America allowed me an opportunity to socialize with many people I would not otherwise run into. Hopper references coming from every direction!


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Jerry_K said:


> Having lived in campgrounds for the last year and a half, I can tell you that for the moveable crowd DirecTV needs to push hard. You only have to watch one person trying to find signal with Dish to thank the powers that be you have DirecTV. I just wish the DirecTV DVRs had a tone when signal is obtained. Would make my job a whole lot easier.
> 
> Our son switched to dish a few years ago. His wife will never ever let him forget it either. She is a wonderful gal, but the Dish system really gets her going. It is truly arcane and very hard to get used to. I have no idea how one sets up recordings. And multi room viewing does not work with the regular dish equipment.


How well do those dome or in motion antennas work for getting HD with Direct? How easy is it to set up Direct's HD antenna on a tripod?


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

jdskycaster said:


> ... As for the advertisements they are doing exactly what Dish intended. Last Sunday being the single busiest day in church parking lots across America allowed me an opportunity to socialize with many people I would not otherwise run into. Hopper references coming from every direction!


Interesting, I've been socializing with people ever since the Hopper and Joey were released. I've yet to have it come up in conversation. You must have a lot of friends that are on DISH. I went to church and the topic never came up.

Ironically, DirecTV was indirectly brought up by a colleague of mine a couple days ago. Never met her before, so it wasn't like we've discussed DIRECTV prior. Since we travel a lot she mentioned that she wished she had a way to watch her DIRECTV DVR when away. So I showed her how I could connect from a PC at the clients site and watch. The point is, someone that has a provider is more likely to talk about them or notice commercials about them.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HobbyTalk said:


> How well do those dome or in motion antennas work for getting HD with Direct? How easy is it to set up Direct's HD antenna on a tripod?


It would be different topic. not in the thread.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

P Smith said:


> ...[Your HDD size notations is ... umm ... egh ... inconvenient, so you doing mistake by yourself]





P Smith said:


> ...So, don't make more typos, please.


Right. My typos, your grammar, the message was clear enough in both instances. Chill.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

patmurphey said:


> Right. My typos, your grammar, the message was clear enough in both instances. Chill.


I'm cool, just:

FYI, using capital letters for measuring units means more then 1, while opposite - decimal parts of 1.
That mean 1 TB would be 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, than 1 tb would be 1/1,000,000,000,000th of byte.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> After getting through your needlessly rude portion of your post...


I have no beef with you; you are one of my favorite posters and a good contributor here. I only wish you well. But sadly, this time you may be mistaking "needlessly" for "necessarily". And "rude" for "the truth" (and "rude" is only _your_ interpretation, which was not necessarily the intent). It's not really about you anyway. Very little is.

You will notice that I never pointed any fingers at you; never mentioned your name, left you completely out of it. But there are no free passes, either, even if I had the courtesy to go out of my way to make sure you were conspicuously absent from the post. No one should have to walk on eggshells around everyone else at risk of the truth just to have that be mistaken as the only definition of civility. It's the internet, ferchrissakes.

Now your post? Civility incarnate . That actually much more closely fits the definition of an attack; it includes statements that directly challenge whether I know what I'm talking about, something I had the courtesy not to bring up regarding your words in my post. And people will have to draw their own conclusions about that, just like they will about you. So, pot, meet kettle. It will be a difficult argument to accuse me of what you may even be more guilty of.

The truth can hurt, and I don't hide from the truth. I think everyone would be better off if they didn't, but then to each his own. IMHO, I am not the one who veered from the path. What I posted were the facts only, and general knowledge to those who actually know, not some unsupported armchair quarterback supposition or theory.

I'm only sorry some folks just can't seem to ever act reasonably when they find their precepts under challenge. It almost seems like the weaker the argument, the more frantically and ineptly things are defended (well, it is an election year, after all). The basic thing of it is still that you can't play fast and loose with the facts in an internet forum and not risk someone calling you out on it; it goes with the territory. Hell, I actually _have_ the facts, and you are calling me out on it.

I have an ego, like everyone else, but unlike some I usually (while not always) know when to not let it get in the way. I don't know everything, but I know enough, and probably ironically for you, much of what I have learned is because I have an open mind and no fear of being wrong or misinformed, which for me is just another opportunity to learn even more, rather than a call to circle the wagons and not budge from an indefensible position (which instead buys one absolutely nothing, BTW; it just digs the hole deeper and makes one look ever more foolish). Everyone makes their own choices in that regard, and it appears you have made yours as well, so there is not much left to discuss. Honestly, I feel your pain in this, and I'm sorry for that, but I must apologize only for pointing out the obvious, and nothing more.

Quite reluctantly I will also point out that if your mind is made up about this it only will further prove my point, so I suggest we bury the hatchet now instead of later. I really didn't set out to make you feel bad, but your reaction is owned only by you; you could have had a different, more sensible reaction IMHO, and I am not the one in control of that. The last thing I need is for someone else I don't even know to go off on me about something I couldn't give two $#!+s about anyway.

How about you're right, I'm wrong (because I just can't be bothered to really care one way or the other). Would that make you feel any better?


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

P Smith said:


> I'm cool, just:
> 
> FYI, using capital letters for measuring units means more then 1, while opposite - decimal parts of 1.
> That mean 1 TB would be 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, than 1 tb would be 1/1,000,000,000,000th of byte.


I got it. I don't want my lack of kowledge of computer arcana to interfere with my point that the Hopper/Joey system has been grossly misrepresented in this thread.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

P Smith said:


> I'm cool, just:
> 
> FYI, using capital letters for measuring units means more then 1, while opposite - decimal parts of 1.
> That mean 1 TB would be 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, than 1 tb would be 1/1,000,000,000,000th of byte.


You know what they say, you learn something new every day! So if I post 1 mi vs 1 MI, how far is that?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

RACJ2 said:


> You know what they say, you learn something new every day! So if I post 1 MI vs 1 mi, how far is that?


You should continue learning ... sorry. 
There are acronyms, multipliers for measuring units, name of units, etc
I see it's just a terra incognita for yourself ...


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

P Smith said:


> You should continue learning ... sorry.
> There are acronyms, multipliers for measuring units, name of units, etc
> I see it's just a tetra incognita for yourself ...


Maybe someone needs to learn how to have a sense of humor?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

RACJ2 said:


> Maybe someone needs to learn how to have a sense of humor?


Perhaps ... using sarcastic roll eyes instead of smile or wink...


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Ahh, my bad.



P Smith said:


> I'm cool, just:
> 
> FYI, using capital letters for measuring units means more then 1, while opposite - decimal parts of 1.
> That mean 1 TB would be 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, than 1 tb would be 1/1,000,000,000,000th of byte.


You know what they say, you learn something new every day! So if I post 1 mi vs 1 MI, how far is that? 

Better?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

RACJ2 said:


> Ahh, my bad.
> 
> You know what they say, you learn something new every day! So if I post 1 mi vs 1 MI, how far is that?
> 
> Better?


We are going too far off topic ...

[if you mean "mile" then use a word "mile", if you mean 1 MPG or MPH then use differently - it would make better understanding by others; using own rules would confuse everyone who are not aware or your 'world'  ]


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

RACJ2 said:


> You know what they say, you learn something new every day! So if I post 1 mi vs 1 MI, how far is that?


Michigan? The infamous oxymoron? A pound of feathers? :hurah:


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Almost nada, but related to precision in measuring terms. I tell my iPhone to "play music by 10cc", and it comes back with , "You don't have anything by 10mL in your music"....!


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

I still haven't seen any ads where DIRECTV is comparing the HMC to the Hopper. I do see adds like the one below, where DISH compares the Hopper to DIRECTV. Interesting that the mention "DIRECTV Raised their rates again", like they don't raise their rates every year.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"RACJ2" said:


> I still haven't seen any ads where DIRECTV is comparing the HMC to the Hopper. I do see adds like the one below, where DISH compares the Hopper to DIRECTV. Interesting that the mention "DIRECTV Raised their rates again", like they don't raise their rates every year.


I think dtv is wise to not Advertise their HR34 till they get it feature wise in line with the other hrs.


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## boogie (Jun 7, 2009)

I have no desire to record every prime-time program on the "Big-4" networks. In fact, I am recording less of these programs with the ability to watch them through Hulu the next day. The streaming platform makes more sense to me. DirecTV could sign deals with the networks and offer (HD, of course) streams available the next day. Granted they would probably have "limited commercial interruptions" like Hulu, but I'm fine with that.


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