# OFFICIAL 6000 Remote Bug RESPONSE from Dish Network



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Hello everyone,

With the release of the 7.81 version of the Dish 6000 software, a bug appeared that causes sluggish response to the remote control IR commands. This affects primarily users with learning remote controls (ie the Philips Pronto remotes) and users who have their Tivos controlling their 6000s.

Today, I received an official response from Dave Kummer at Echostar regarding this issue, that he has asked me to pass along to you. So, without commentary on my part, here is the official Echostar statement:

The problem which you describe regarding compatibility with your Dish Network Model 6000 and your Tivo unit was first brought to my attention last week. The problem is also affecting certain programmable remote control devices such as the Pronto remote. I can assure you that Echostar did not deliberately cause these units to not work. In fact, in the past we have cooperated with Tivo, at their request, when we started to launch 4 digit channel numbers that caused problems with their units. ​
Changes were made to the remote control key handling in response to a problem that we encountered earlier at Echostar. This problem caused a key run on, where the unit would continue to act as if a key was pressed even after it had been released. An example of this would be if the user was scrolling up in the guide, and released the up arrow key, the box would continue to scroll up. We believe that this fix has caused the problems with the Tivo and the programmable remotes.​
We do not test our software releases against Tivo or any other third party equipment that may be used with an Echostar receiver. We do not advertise that our box is compatible with Tivo or any other third party box. There is no way for us to know how many different versions that Tivo, Replay or other manufacturers may have out in the public. We may not even be aware of some equipment being sold by other companies that is intended to work with Echostar receivers. The burden for insuring that this equipment works on Echostar receivers must rest with these suppliers, not Echostar.​
Having said that, now that we are aware of the problem, we are taking steps to correct it. Loading the old software back into the box, however, is not an option. There have been changes to the service to support new satellites that will not allow the old software to work any longer. Model 6000's must have the new software or they would not be able to currently operate on the Dish Network .​
We are in the process of creating a new version of software which will go back to the old remote key handling and also be able to support the new satellites. This will take several weeks to code and test before it will start to be released. All releases at Echostar are released on a partial roll-out basis. It takes several weeks before the software is available to all receivers of a certain model. ​
Dave Kummer
Sr. Vice President of Engineering and Systems
Echostar Technologies Corp.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I have received information that Dave, along with a few other Dish Network engineers will be monitoring this thread. If you have questions about the statement, I will try to get them answered for you.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well this is good to hear. Glad to hear they are working on it.


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

It affected Harmony remotes also.


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## buddhawood (Nov 4, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I have received information that Dave, along with a few other Dish Network engineers will be monitoring this thread. If you have questions about the statement, I will try to get them answered for you.


A huge thanks for posting this. I just replaced my 6000 with an old 3900 until this is fixed. I'd rather have Tivo than HD. But I will look forward to being able to have have both...again.


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## bradleys (Nov 6, 2003)

I have a Dish 6000 and Dish 501. I have three remotes (two black and one silver). ALL the remotes work on the 501. NONE of the remotes work properly on the 6000. (I've switched around the remote codes for these tests of course). So, the problem occurs on Dish remotes as well. I've also read that some other folks do NOT have problems with Dish remotes. However, MY Dish remotes are almost worthless on my 6000. It usually takes me about three or four tries to get the 6000 to pick up all four numbers for the HD services.

This post is not to flame Dish, just to let them know some additional information related to the problem.

Mini-rant - Dish, how about using channels 70-99 for HD rather than the horrible four digit 94xx numbers?

I'd LOVE to test the new software when it's available. I'll know IMMEDIATELY if the problem is fixed.


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## volfan615 (Sep 18, 2003)

Mark thanks for posting this. I just have my fingers crossed that this fix is only several weeks and not several months.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I used to get that "continue to behave as if the button remained press" bug all of the time on the guide. Now that he mentions that its fixed, I can't say that I've seen it in a long time.


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## Neutron (Oct 2, 2003)

Cyclone said:


> I used to get that "continue to behave as if the button remained press" bug all of the time on the guide. Now that he mentions that its fixed, I can't say that I've seen it in a long time.


This is probably off topic but it pertains to the DISH remotes. My 510 is slow to respond when I use my remote, the silver one that it came with. Surfing the guide or the menus is a lot slower than my 301.


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

I want to second the fact that it DOES affect DISH remotes as well, although not as severely. I have tried my 6000 remote and my 501 remote and it affects them. It also affects using the front panel buttons! So it is in the routines that handle any key input. (UHF, IR, or control panel).

It isnt as severe with the Dish remotes so they probably aren't getting many if any complaints because it is just an annoyance to the common user. But to any IR blaster used in home automation any failure results in a missed recording and is serious.

Its nice to see that they are FINALLY acknowledging this problem and I hope they appreciate the seriousness of it.

Our biggest beef I think is why , when this was discovered, a note was not created in the technical knowledgebase available to tech support?? From day one they should have been able to respond to users that this is a KNOWN ISSUE and will be fixed in the NEXT RELEASE ... "sorry for the inconvenience". 

It appears I was the first end user to notice this in the limited release of 7.81 and Mark immediately relayed the problem back to Dish. Mark also got a response from them that they acknowledged it was a problem BEFORE 7.81 WENT TO GENERAL AVAILABILITY. So it should have been documented in the knowledgebase. This is a breakdown in their communications which has had a significant impact on their customer satisfaction.

When I reported the problem to the advanced tech support they sent me out a new 6000 receiver to test. If this was done to others as well, they even wasted time and money on this issue. Again, lack of communication here costs Dish time, money, and customer satisfaction. They really need to improve their communication up and down the tech support tiers.

Upon each release there should AT LEAST be "release notes" which every TSR should check if a user reports a problem, especially on a new release. In those release notes should be a section of "known issues". This is general software practice.

Lee


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## Randy_B (Apr 23, 2002)

Thanks Dave. That is refreshing. For years we have been asking for E* to simply acknowledge at least "some" of the bugs/issues and let consumers know they are being worked. No one expects (at least realistically) E* can correct problems overnight, just letting people know their issue isn't unique to their receiver goes a long way.

I really hope this is a true sign of a change in corporate culture on E*'s part. There is nothing wrong with dialogue.

I think most would also acknowledge Dave's caveat that there is no way they could test compatibility with all the various after market control components. It is nice to know that there are some that are widespread enough in use for E* to look into.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

COme to think of it, I have also had the run on bug plenty of times as well. Heck, I would have even been understanding if they had mentioned that they were trying to fix that in the first place. I can also confirm that this causes problems with the dish remote. I do not have the UHF antenna hooked to mine and I only use IR via a repeater system and I have to hold the buttons a touch longer or hit them twice with the blue button remote as well.

What I can't understand is why E* over-rode my election to "Ask before downloading" new software versions and installed 7.81 without my permission. What is the point of having that page in the receiver? After all, I do not have a superdish and won't need the new SW until I do, Right?


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## Rmcgirr83 (Sep 12, 2003)

ride525 said:


> It affected Harmony remotes also.


Hasn't affected mine.


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

I am sure it is possible that there are certain software releases that can be tagged as critical for system compatibility and they would probably override the ask option. Since the SuperDish update is a major system wide change they may now be forcing it down to make sure that people now getting SuperDish installs dont run into trouble with out of date software simply because they selected "ask before" which many probably do.

They may have just tagged 7.81 as such a release.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Though I agree with you here dmod, the software has been out less than a month. large Corporations usually take a while to get their ducks in a row. There are some exceptions, but that has been my experience. I was part of a team that was responsible for providing a software fix that effected 1 million DSL customers. It took us 1 month of 16 hours days to get a fix. It was a least two weeks before we actually started to work on it when we were trying to determine root cause and if the problem was actually in our code. I would say that One Month is not a huge amount of time. Sounds like they know the root cause and I would expect a fix soon hopefully. Testing cycle should be the longest time.

As for it effecting their remote. It most definitely does. It is all in the timing. Quick press on their remote and it does not register. Have to hold down for a period of time. Lets hope they get it right this time.

The other bug I wish they would fix is the "Acquiring Signal one" I know get an error "Unable to read Guide info" right before the Aquiring Signal. This bug is now a bit more annoying. 



dmodemd said:


> I want to second the fact that it DOES affect DISH remotes as well, although not as severely. I have tried my 6000 remote and my 501 remote and it affects them. It also affects using the front panel buttons! So it is in the routines that handle any key input. (UHF, IR, or control panel).
> 
> It isn't as severe with the Dish remotes so they probably aren't getting many if any complaints because it is just an annoyance to the common user. But to any IR blaster used in home automation any failure results in a missed recording and is serious.
> 
> ...


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

dmodemd said:


> I am sure it is possible that there are certain software releases that can be tagged as critical for system compatibility and they would probably override the ask option. Since the SuperDish update is a major system wide change they may now be forcing it down to make sure that people now getting SuperDish installs dont run into trouble with out of date software simply because they selected "ask before" which many probably do.
> 
> They may have just tagged 7.81 as such a release.


IMO, the proper solution to this is the same one they used with the 8VSB module. A sticker on the box or a piece of paper in it stating that you first needed to have SW version x.xx for the device to operate properly.


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## JohnM (Nov 6, 2003)

I have a One-for-All Cinema 7 remote and I have had problems since the 7.81 upgrade. Keys are sluggish and discreet codes programmed into the Cinema 7 do not always work. Off/On works about 20% of the time and the HD/SD occasionally works. I find myself hitting every command twice to get it to work. Most of my macros do not work because it will miss one of the codes in the series.


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## aaronp (Nov 8, 2003)

Software 7.82 is in beta testing.
It WILL fix the TIVO problem.


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## minesh1 (Nov 1, 2003)

Any idea on when it'll be released? How about a priority list, particularly for users that rely on TiVo to change channels for them & don't use remotes in the traditional sense.


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## faiello (Mar 17, 2003)

I hope this new release comes out soon my wife has been mad at me since 7.81 came out. I use Netcommand on my Mitsubishi RPTV, the remote work fine if it is switched to DSS, but is sluggish when it is in the Netcommand mode.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2003)

This may be off topic also but my 508 receivers are acting really weird to commands from the original remotes while either in the guide or in the PVR selection. When the up or down buttons are pressed to select a desired channel or selection the unit goes crazy as hell and just keeps going on and on and on all by itself. I actually put the remote down and watched it continue scrolling for over two minutes. Has anyone else had this problem I believe it has been talked about before as a hyperactive remote. Anyway its at it again. I've tried resetting the receivers several times which has not helped at all.

Any suggestions from Dave Kummer and company would be appreciated.


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## buddhawood (Nov 4, 2003)

aaronp said:


> Software 7.82 is in beta testing.
> It WILL fix the TIVO problem.


Boy, I hope you are right about this!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I don't know about the tivo, as I don't have one, but I can tell you that while my pronto macros still worked with 7.81, they seem to be working "better" - with less hesitation with this beta.


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## DarrellP (Apr 24, 2002)

I guess I am lucky, my Pronto works better with my 6000 than the 6000 remote does. The 6000 often does not respond to my key presses from it's own remote until I press it a few times, with the Pronto, it is always very responsive. I have never experienced the run-on bug.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Too bad they cant let a few of the people on here that are having that problem try it . We seem to have a great understanding of the issue and the proper motivation to give it a spin.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

WeeJavaDude - who says they aren't?  (And no, I'm not just talking about me.)


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

Last week after sending email to Saraya Cartwright and Dave Kummer at Dish and getting no reply, I sent an email to the Wall Street Journal explaining the problem that we were having with the 6000/TiVo problem. I received an email from Dave Kummer shortly afterward. I got the same form message posted earlier on this forum along with an offer to participate in the upcoming beta.

Dave Kummer sent:
We are in the process of creating a new version of software which will go back to the old remote key handling and also be able to support the new satellites. This will take several weeks to code and test before it will start to be released. All releases at Echostar are released on a partial roll-out basis. It takes several weeks before the software is available to all receivers of a certain model. 

I am willing to target your box with a beta version of the code which should be out within a week. I need to check with my software manager to get the actual date. You need to send me an email if you would like to take me up on that offer. Also in exchange for doing this I would ask that you provide feedback to us as to if it completely fixes your problem or not. 


To which I responded two hours later:
I would love to participate in any Beta test to resolve this problem and to provide feedback. This has seriously affected my TV viewing habits. Once you get used to time shifting and watching what you like when you like, it is hard to go back to the mercy of the network's schedules.

When I heard that the beta had been released I sent the following :
I understand that the Beta is out, any chance of getting it?

Dave Kummer replied:
We have already sent the beta out. We did target some people and have gotten indication that this did fix the issue with controlling the Tivo unit. Sorry we didn't hear from you in time to get you on that list. We are looking at speeding up the deployment of this software cut. I will try to let you know as soon as it up so you can take it.

I replied with the following:
I am sorry that you don't read your email. I answered your email offering to put me on the beta two hours after you sent it. Wasn't that soon enough?

Dave Kummer replied:
I am sorry, I looked for your email specifically. I just searched again and didn't get anything from you after the message you wrote to the WSJ on 11/4/03 until the email you sent on Sun 11/10/03. Could you have possibly sent it from another account and the name shows up differently? 


I only send email on one computer from one email account and I got no indication of undeliverable email. So I guess that Dish's email system is as unreliable as their 6000 software.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> WeeJavaDude - who says they aren't?  (And no, I'm not just talking about me.)


Well I figured there was a few people. Hopefully there are one or two TSU3000 people on that list. I would have been happy to be on the list but I don't have a clue how to be the click.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2003)

There is HOPE!

I am part of the beta group and I can vouch that my Tivo is happy again!

Hopefully they will soon make this general release for all of the rest of the Tivo users.

I don't know if I can be public about this so I have used an alias.


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

I don't know about the rest of you but this whole 6000/tivo/third party remote thing has really pissed me off. If I learned one thing during this time it's that dishnetwork doesn't care about it's customers. I was amazed at the attitudes and responses that I got on the phone during this episode and now I can't believe that they have a fix in hand and won't provide it to me.

I received the following from Dave Kummer:
We do not test our software releases against Tivo or any other third party equipment that maybe used with an Echostar receiver. We do not advertise that our box is compatible with Tivo or any other third party box. There is no way for us to know how many different versions that Tivo, Replay or other manufactures may have out in the public. We may not even be aware of some equipment being sold by other companies that is intended to work with Echostar receivers. The burden for insuring that this equipment works on Echostar receivers must rest with these suppliers, not Echostar.


I think this is a very arrogant attitude which demonstrates a complete lack of concern for their customers. I have invested quite a lot of money in my Home Theater and the main source of programming is Dishnetwork. Now the Vice President of Dish network tells me that he feels that he has the right to break my Home Theater at any time with no notice. I think he feels that everyone should have simply a TV + Dish Receiver/PVR and that's all.

If they cared about their customers they could at least make a pre-release version of software changes available to third party manufacturers for compatibility testing. Or even simpler, provide a serial control port on their receivers like the DirecTv receivers have. That would require engineering however, and dish appears to prefer to do little of that.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

happytivo - Under the terms of the NDA, I believe you can say what you said, but not much more. Anything specific to the programming can't be publicly discussed.

jballard - you obviously chose to ignore the next paragraph of what Dave said: 


> Having said that, now that we are aware of the problem, we are taking steps to correct it. Loading the old software back into the box, however, is not an option. There have been changes to the service to support new satellites that will not allow the old software to work any longer. Model 6000's must have the new software or they would not be able to currently operate on the Dish Network .​


​
Yes, Dish broke the code, and made external IR devices stop working. It wasn't intentional, and Dave fessed up to it and is working very hard to get it fixed. Your statement is incredibly unfair to Dish. Just because you or I go out and purchase lots of other equipment to work with our satellite receivers doesn't mean that Dish is required to guarantee compatibility with all of the equipment that we can add. Dish is under no obligation whatsoever to fix this problem, but they are fixing it. The first beta release fixed it. There are a couple of other bugs that are being fixed as well now, and then it should be ready to roll out to everyone. ​
Dave didn't sit down with his staff and tell them to break fuctionality with external IR devices. They were trying to fix an IR bug that has plagued the 6000 for a long time. Their fix DID fix that bug, but unfortunately it caused the problem with the Tivo and other external devices. Once Dave became aware of the problem, he immediately took steps to fix it.​
Telling them to make the pre-release software available to all customers is rediculous. Every single box has to be targetted specifically for pre-release software individually. How many 6000 owners are there? 10,000? 50,000? I don't know, but I guarantee there are more than a handful. ​
I find your attitude very arrogant. They are obviously showing concern for their customers. They made a mistake, and are now fixing it as fast as they can. I've never seen betas get released this fast for any product, much less Dish receivers. If Dave gets your signed NDA before the next release, and gets your 6000 targetted, then great. You'll get it soon. If not, you'll get it sometime in the next few weeks. ​
Sorry for the rant. There are a lot of things Dish should own up to, but in this case, they are very much trying to do the right thing for their customers, whether you choose to recognize that or not.​


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## marko (Jan 9, 2003)

Dish seems to be handling this appropriately. Bad that they broke it to begin with, but hopefully they will have the fix out soon. I know my normal 6000 remote seems sluggish, so maybe things will get better.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Not sure if I even should reply here, but I will give it a shot.



jballard said:


> I don't know about the rest of you but this whole 6000/tivo/third party remote thing has really pissed me off. If I learned one thing during this time it's that dishnetwork doesn't care about it's customers. I was amazed at the attitudes and responses that I got on the phone during this episode and now I can't believe that they have a fix in hand and won't provide it to me.


With embedded software deployment, just handing people a fix to try does not work too well. Deployment of software fixes are needed to be more controlled. I am staying away from the attidude comments because that is a flame war just waiting to happen



jballard said:


> I received the following from Dave Kummer:
> We do not test our software releases against Tivo or any other third party equipment that maybe used with an Echostar receiver. We do not advertise that our box is compatible with Tivo or any other third party box. There is no way for us to know how many different versions that Tivo, Replay or other manufactures may have out in the public. We may not even be aware of some equipment being sold by other companies that is intended to work with Echostar receivers. The burden for insuring that this equipment works on Echostar receivers must rest with these suppliers, not Echostar.


Not an unreasonable stand.. However, in this case they did break something on their end and it does effect the operation of their remotes. This statement I am sure was stated before they new the root cause.



jballard said:


> I think this is a very arrogant attitude which demonstrates a complete lack of concern for their customers. I have invested quite a lot of money in my Home Theater and the main source of programming is Dishnetwork. Now the Vice President of Dish network tells me that he feels that he has the right to break my Home Theater at any time with no notice. I think he feels that everyone should have simply a TV + Dish Receiver/PVR and that's all.
> 
> If they cared about their customers they could at least make a pre-release version of software changes available to third party manufacturers for compatibility testing. Or even simpler, provide a serial control port on their receivers like the DirecTv receivers have. That would require engineering however, and dish appears to prefer to do little of that.


He does not have a right to break your HT system, but he also can not control the effects that a software change my cause to a third party device. In this case, it looks like it was dishes fault for sure, but there could be other times when a change results in a third party incompatability and it is not always the vendor that made the change's fault. To be clear here, This one is from my opinion dish's mistake.

Also, In my opinion they have acted in a timely manner . I would have liked it to be quicker, but I am also aware that in enviroments like this changes cannot be done quickly.

You have your right to be upset and in this case it is justifiable. These things happen and I have seen them happen a number of times in different industries. They are a huge source of customer pain and that is why Dish is acting fast once they determined the root cause was in their court.

By the way.. I am also effected by this but for me it is just an annoyance and not a loss of functionality.

On a side note, I read your earlier post and based on Dish trying to get this fix out as quickly as possible, I am not surprised about this mix up on getting you on the list. They are in firefighting mode and those types of things happen when you are trying to accelerate a release cycle. This does not mean Dish is in crises mode.

Guess in this case.. the silver lining is we have been told that it is coming and patience is a virtue here. This is one case where this group for sure effected some change. Cool!!


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

WOW... I was trying to be more diplomatic, however, I do agree Mark with you here on all points. Good post!!



Mark Lamutt said:


> happytivo - Under the terms of the NDA, I believe you can say what you said, but not much more. Anything specific to the programming can't be publicly discussed.
> 
> jballard - you obviously chose to ignore the next paragraph of what Dave said:
> [/font][/left]
> ...


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

jballard, I apoligize for the tone of my reply to you. Your post really hit a nerve with me, and I reacted to that rather than calming down a bit before replying. For that I apoligize.

I spent a good amount of time on the phone with Dave last Friday afternoon and he is chagrined by this mess. The 6000 team is absolutely in fire fighting mode right now to get this out as soon as physically possible to everyone.

Your post attacked Dish for not caring about any of their 6000 customers. I know for a fact after the call that nothing could be further from the truth. There are a lot of things that we can call Dish on, but this isn't one of them. So, I reacted by jumping to Dave's defense here in a not so great way. I stand by what I said in my post, but not by the way I said it.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2003)

Hmmm...

There seems to be alot of backpeddling now that this is not a little issue as some would have thought saying "most people that have 6000s do not have them connected to Tivos since they are HD"

Also, Mark, my biggest complaint with E* was not so much with the fact that they broke it to begin with, but rather on how they have responded since the very beginning to customers. It seems that not until hundreds of posts and the VP of engineering is contacted, did anything transpire to not just resolve this issue, but to acknowledge it at all.

As I have posted many times before, this experience pointed towards a few endemic issues with E*

1. Proper software testing and release procedures
2. Responsiblity for interactivity with Tier-1 home entertainment components like TVs, Tivo, S-Video output, etc. Tivo is in that class IMO.
3. Poor CSRs and escalation teams that do not listen to customers and insist that any issue that you have is not related at all to a software release and a refusal to escalate issues in a KB/helpdesk to the engineering team.
4. Poor rollback capabilities in the systems to give both E* and the customer a fallback position in case such major issues arise.

I do appreciate that we finally are getting somewhere with acknowledging this issue and releasing a fix to beta and hopefully soon to commoners like me.

I hope that E* learns something from this experience.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> There seems to be alot of backpeddling now that this is not a little issue as some would have thought saying "most people that have 6000s do not have them connected to Tivos since they are HD"
> 
> ...


The problem that Dish is facing is that their process IS proper software testing and release procedures, and those procedures are what are being attacked right now because users have to wait until the testing process is complete to get the new code to fix the problem. Letting everyone access the new code right this moment would absolutely violate proper software testing and release procedures.



> 2. Responsiblity for interactivity with Tier-1 home entertainment components like TVs, Tivo, S-Video output, etc. Tivo is in that class IMO.


I agree with you that interactivity needs to be good with standard devices, but Tivo is not a standard "tier-1" as you call it device. Tivo is a niche product. Granted, that niche is getting larger, but you can't honestly say that a Tivo is a standard piece of equipment in a standard home theater system. Most consumers don't even know what a Tivo is, much less own one. DVD players weren't even considered standard pieces of equipment until last year.



> 3. Poor CSRs and escalation teams that do not listen to customers and insist that any issue that you have is not related at all to a software release and a refusal to escalate issues in a KB/helpdesk to the engineering team.


In principle, I agree with this. A lot of it comes down to training and communication procedures within the organization. And with a company the size of E*, filtering communication down from the top to all of the lower level CSRs is not a fast process.



> 4. Poor rollback capabilities in the systems to give both E* and the customer a fallback position in case such major issues arise.


Great idea in theory, but not always possible. It was definitely not possible in this case, and the new software is the only way the 6000 stays compatible with the new satellites and the superdish, which are available NOW to some 6000 owners. It would be incredibly difficult to maintain 2 release versions of the software uplinked to the satellite and keep track of who has what version. Remember, we're talking about tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of 6000s in service.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> There seems to be alot of backpeddling now that this is not a little issue as some would have thought saying "most people that have 6000s do not have them connected to Tivos since they are HD"


I assume this comment might be directed to me. I am not back pendling here at all. I still feel that if it was only TIVOs and Reply that were effect that the issue would be a low priority under the circumstances I mentioned earlier. The fact that it also effects their remote is what drove them towards finding a quick fix. That and the load yells from the TIVO community. 



[email protected] said:


> Also, Mark, my biggest complaint with E* was not so much with the fact that they broke it to begin with, but rather on how they have responded since the very beginning to customers. It seems that not until hundreds of posts and the VP of engineering is contacted, did anything transpire to not just resolve this issue, but to acknowledge it at all.


This is common with most software/hardward companies. They find it very hard to see it from our side of the fence. I fully agree here. However, I dont think the response was too slow.

As I have posted many times before, this experience pointed towards a few endemic issues with E*



[email protected] said:


> 1. Proper software testing and release procedures
> 2. Responsiblity for interactivity with Tier-1 home entertainment components like TVs, Tivo, S-Video output, etc. Tivo is in that class IMO.
> 3. Poor CSRs and escalation teams that do not listen to customers and insist that any issue that you have is not related at all to a software release and a refusal to escalate issues in a KB/helpdesk to the engineering team.
> 4. Poor rollback capabilities in the systems to give both E* and the customer a fallback position in case such major issues arise.


Yes we have batted this one around a bit. I agree with 1 and 4. In this case, the software update path did not have a rollback plan because of superdish. Even if it did, Dish does not have a mechanism to do what you suggested. Given the reponse from Dish, I see there are arguments to having that type of mechanism and this type of system could be problematic. Like always, it is not as simple as we see it sometimes. 

2- Yes they have some responsibility and they should be proactive in dealing with issues like this. There are all sorts of problems that can occur here and a blanket statement of interativity with Tier-1 home entertainment components is going a bit far. This also brings up the issue that possible the TIVO needs a bit more configuration on the IR blaster side. Not sure since I dont have any TIVO knowledge, but some remotes could work around the problem and some could not. I was disappointed that mine seemed to fall in the have not arena.

3-My experience with Dish CSR are they are decent in what they do. It is the edge conditions where they tend to fall apart and my guess is that unless it is a specific Dish issue they are not going to pass it up to Engineering. In this case since the discussion involved third party hardware they are trained to push back. This is always a problem with multiple hardware/software vendors and I have ran into it before. After have two pieces of software that don't behave nicely with each other?



[email protected] said:


> I do appreciate that we finally are getting somewhere with acknowledging this issue and releasing a fix to beta and hopefully soon to commoners like me.
> 
> I hope that E* learns something from this experience.


Me Too!!


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

I still feel that dish has not done their best to support their customers in this case. First, Mark you mention that Dish has owned up to the problem and is fixing it, you say that they have done so in record time. They certainly rolled out 7.81 to fix the problems on 7.80 much faster, like in two weeks. My TiVo has been broken for longer than two weeks and it's still not fixed. For the first week that I called, Dish would not admit that there was a problem and told me that they would not be addressing it until after the first of the year. Enough of us called repeatedly to change their minds.

Second, I believe that Dish should certainly have the right to change their software as they please. However, they are aware that many, many people have external devices which use the IR interface for control. I believe that they should be very careful about changing external interfaces. They should in fact document the IR protocol used and release new documentation if they change it.

They should only do this if they care about supporting their customers. I do not believe, like you Mark, that this was handled very well. The IR interface has been broken for almost a month and for the first three weeks Dish said that the problem was TiVos and that we should call TiVo. They did not admit that the problem occurred with their own remote and many third party remotes.

I am simply looking for a way to prevent this from happening again in the future, I am resigned to the fact that my TiVo will not work again until some as yet undisclosed time in the future. But how do we prevent the next release from breaking our Home Theaters? One way would be to get Dish to document the interface and nail it down, they should not feel free to change external interfaces without some warning. 

I have never suggested that they should be responsible for testing every piece of equipment against their boxes. I am suggesting that they are not building their equipment to work in a void. Their equipment works as part of a system and needs to be compatible with the other equipment in the system. They should give the other equipment manufacturers a heads up before changing an external interface that others depend on. At least post a note on a known web page mentioning that the interface is changing so that the third party equipment vendors know that they have work to do.

They should not take the approach that they can change the external interface without warning then expect all of the third party manufacturers to immediately have to scramble around to change to conform to Dishes new IR protocol. In the meantime all of their customers equipment is broken.

That's my opinion, obviously you should feel free to disagree. Anyone who likes the idea of having your Home Theater randomly broken by the next software release should speak up.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2003)

Tivo is no small fish in the Home Theater world...

http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=190

Add to this number all of the other PVRs and 1.5 million people is significant.

Also, given the fact that Satellite TV service is an early adopter product (in transition for sure, but definately still fringe early adopter), it reasons to say that many of the same HT early adopters would have Tivo as well.

But, maybe E* will not have to worry much about compatibility with Tivo very far off in the future when the DirecTV/Tivo HD solution comes out. Many, like me, will have a hard time transitioning to the poor-UI HD Dishplayer. But, maybe I will be wrong and maybe E* will improve the UI on the HD PVR, when (if) it releases.

jballard makes a valid point that all I/O on a device should be documented and any changes to the protocol or timings on those interfaces should be released far in advance of the software release so the third parties CAN react proactively. Of course, it is MUCH easier to say you do not guarantee any third party device will work with your equipment (read: TV?)


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

I have two other questions. If Dish does such thorough and painstaking testing as they now appear to be doing, how did 7.81 ever make it to the field? It seems to have affected quite a few people. Mark, were you on the Beta for 7.81? 

Also, why can't those of us who complained long and loudly about this problem be on the first rollout? My system is already broken, they broke it without requiring me to sign a nondisclosure. I am willing to take the chance that the Beta might break my system, IT IS ALREADY BROKEN!!!!!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Replying to jballard first:



jballard said:


> I still feel that dish has not done their best to support their customers in this case. First, Mark you mention that Dish has owned up to the problem and is fixing it, you say that they have done so in record time. They certainly rolled out 7.81 to fix the problems on 7.80 much faster, like in two weeks. My TiVo has been broken for longer than two weeks and it's still not fixed. For the first week that I called, Dish would not admit that there was a problem and told me that they would not be addressing it until after the first of the year. Enough of us called repeatedly to change their minds.


I don't think this is an apples to apples comparison because 7.80 was already in the first round of limited release when it was pulled, had one bug fixed, and then continued in limited release. 7.81 didn't go through the same beta process as 7.80 did. And 7.80 also had the IR bug in it. I believe the IR bug happened going from 7.79 to 7.80. It took almost 3 months to move from 7.79 to 7.81 from start of beta to complete rollout. Going from 7.81 to 7.8x (don't know yet what the new version is going to be) is going to take less than that most likely. We're at about 4 weeks now since 7.81 rolled out, and hopefully close to ready for limited rollout (can't say that for sure as I don't know). If limited rollout is coming soon, then complete rollout should make it at about 2 months since 7.81.

I agree with you that communication up the chain of command is problematic at dish. The calls were to the CSR level people who didn't get the information up the chain because they hadn't been told there was a potential problem from above. There doesn't seem to be a free flowing 2 way communication path in place to facillitate that communication at Dish. Of course, there isn't one in place at my company either, and we're about the same size as Echostar.



jballard said:


> I am simply looking for a way to prevent this from happening again in the future, I am resigned to the fact that my TiVo will not work again until some as yet undisclosed time in the future. But how do we prevent the next release from breaking our Home Theaters? One way would be to get Dish to document the interface and nail it down, they should not feel free to change external interfaces without some warning.


Conceptually I agree with you about this, but IR protocal is usually considered proprietary information I would think, and thus would never be released to the general public. Yes, we have methods in place to reverse engineer the IR codes with learning remotes and the like, but we don't have access to the internal workings, and probably never will.



jballard said:


> They should not take the approach that they can change the external interface without warning then expect all of the third party manufacturers to immediately have to scramble around to change to conform to Dishes new IR protocol. In the meantime all of their customers equipment is broken.


Agreed, and I think this is where the mistake, error, whatever you want to call it, came into play. They didn't consider that the change would affect all of the external devices when they made the change. Steps have been taken to correct the mistake and make sure it doesn't happen again. I know that Dish nows owns at least one Tivo in their test room and is testing the new software with it. I also know that there are at least 2 new beta testers on the team that use Tivos with their 6000s. So, Dish screwed up. At least they are moving in the right direction to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Now, replying to tbfu:



tbfu2000 said:


> Tivo is no small fish in the Home Theater world...
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/5.3.1.1.asp?article=190
> 
> Add to this number all of the other PVRs and 1.5 million people is significant.


I agree that Tivo isn't the small fish anymore that it once was. But, how many of those 1.5 million people are using high definition receivers connected to their Tivos? I don't know the answer, but my guess is less than 1 percent. I would think that the reason to own a HD receiver is to watch HD, not to record SD with an external device. It doesn't make much sense to me to connect a HD receiver to a Tivo that wants a dedicated tuner source to fuction properly 100% of the time. And a HD receiver can't let the Tivo be in control 100% of the time and still be used to watch HD material. I could be wrong, but I really don't think that it's a common situation.

And replying again to jballard:



jballard said:


> I have two other questions. If Dish does such thorough and painstaking testing as they now appear to be doing, how did 7.81 ever make it to the field? It seems to have affected quite a few people. Mark, were you on the Beta for 7.81?


Because none of the beta testers had their 6000s connected to a Tivo, or any other SD recording device that uses an IR transmitter to control it. That's why it was never seen. I use a pronto remote with my 6000, and I never experienced any of my macros failing, or any other sluggish remote response at all. Believe me, if I had, it would have been reported at that time, and would have been fixed at that time. I just didn't see it because the problem never manifested on my 6000. I don't know why - I've tried everything I can think of to recreate some of the issues that people have been talking about on my 6000, and haven't been able to. I report what other people are saying most of the time, but haven't been able to make my 6000 fail like others seem to be failing. I've spent hours trying to get my guide to be corrupted...haven't been able to. Since all of this came up 4 weeks ago, I've spent a lot of time trying to get my pronto to fail with my 6000 - haven't been able to. I reported last week that my pronto macros seem to be faster responding now, but I never noticed the slowdown because they didn't fail the first time around. I take being a beta tester very seriously. You should see the length of some of the reports that I've submitted to them - multiple pages of decription and steps to recreate some of the time. But, I'm only one person testing on one box. I didn't catch this one. I'm not the only tester, but obviously this problem required a pretty specific set of circumstances to be found. And none of us were set up like that. Yes I was asked to join the beta team after 7.79.



jballard said:


> Also, why can't those of us who complained long and loudly about this problem be on the first rollout? My system is already broken, they broke it without requiring me to sign a nondisclosure. I am willing to take the chance that the Beta might break my system, IT IS ALREADY BROKEN!!!!!


Send another message to Dave Kummer. Ask to be put on the team, or at the very least ask to be included in the first round of the limited rollout when it happens. Send him all of your relavent receiver info - all of the info on the sysinfo page. That's what they need to punch into the system to make sure you're on the rollout list.


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

Mark, I think we see this problem differently. 

You obviously have great contacts at Dish and defend them very well. Your contacts told you that they were working on the problem.

My only contact is through CSRs. They told me that this was not their problem and TiVo was to blame. You have to realize that this thread didn't start until Dish owned up to the problem. For the two weeks before this thread started Dish was telling us to go away, this was not their problem.

You don't have a TiVo and weren't adversely affected by this problem.

I watch all non-HD programming through my TiVo and was severely affected by this bug. It changed my TV viewing habits very much. It has been affecting me since before Dish owned up to the problem

You have a fix for the problem already in your receiver.

I am still waiting for my receiver to be fixed.

You say that the reason that this problem wasn't noticed earlier is that Dish didn't include any users of PVRs which use IR for control in their Beta. Yet they were changing the timing of the IR interface. You would think that they would select Beta testers who actually use the features that are being changed.

I have suggested in an earlier post that the PVR problem would be solved if Dish included a serial interface for external control. All of the DirecTv receivers have this feature. Of course you would have to let people know if you changed the serial protocol. You couldn't just change it without telling anyone or the same problem would occur.

Earlier when I criticized Dave's statement about Dish not being responsible for compatibility testing, I had read his entire response. I was aware that they had finally accepted responsibility for the problem and were working on a fix. What I disagree with is the attitude that they are not responsible for compatibility with other equipment. My Dish 6000 is a single component in my Home Theater. I think that Dish needs to understand that and to accept that when they change external interfaces which affect interoperability with other components they should let someone know. They should not simply change the external interface and expect other vendors to scramble around to fix compatibility. We all know that third parties depend on the IR interface on Dish receivers, they have no other choice, there is no serial interface. As I said to Dave in private email, taking this approach will result in customer dissatisfaction. They need to document external interfaces and revise those documents when they change.

Dave made the statement to me in private mail that this was not a computer operating system on which third parties develop application software. (OS vendors must document APIs.) I agree it is not an OS, however it is a central component around which customers build a Home Theater system. Third party equipment depends on the IR interface just like computer applications depend on the OS APIs. They both need to be stable and all changes must be documented if they are to work together.

I would be just as upset if Sony downloaded software into my TV without my permission which broke compatibility with their IR interface.


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

ps
I would also be just as upset if Microsoft downloaded updates into my PC without my permission and broke an API which my accounting software depended on. Then told me that it wasn't their problem, I should go talk to the accounting program vendor.

I would still be upset even if they later admitted that the problem really was theirs but I could not roll back to a previous working version and would have to wait a month before I could expect my accounting program to work.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2003)

> I agree that Tivo isn't the small fish anymore that it once was. But, how many of those 1.5 million people are using high definition receivers connected to their Tivos? I don't know the answer, but my guess is less than 1 percent. I would think that the reason to own a HD receiver is to watch HD, not to record SD with an external device. It doesn't make much sense to me to connect a HD receiver to a Tivo that wants a dedicated tuner source to fuction properly 100% of the time. And a HD receiver can't let the Tivo be in control 100% of the time and still be used to watch HD material. I could be wrong, but I really don't think that it's a common situation.


Even .5% of 1.5 million is still a large number when you consider the negative vibe it can cause to those 7500 users.

And, BTW, just because the 6000 is an HD device, you gain nothing by watching your SD content through it. So, most programming is still SD and that is the mode my system stays in unless I happen to be in my seat waiting for an HD program to start and wanting to sit through the commercials. Most of the HD programming I watch is HBO and sports. And, since there is no HD Tivo yet, this setup allows me to still use a Tivo and get HD when I want it all on the same box.

If you don't have a Tivo, you wouldn't understand. Its kinda akin to a vietnam vet trying to explain his experience to a non-vet.

Java and Mark, I know you think that you can spin a perspective on this, but this is not a stutter issue, program guide annoyance or the like. It is on a completely different level for Tivo users.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Well, my spin is from my perspective, just as your spin is from your perspective. I don't have a tivo, so I can't talk from that perspective. My pvr'ing is done with 2 508s.

I know that Dave and others at Dish are reading this thread. I know that the software team is working feverishly to get the new software released as soon as possible. I also know that there is serious testing going on (as there usually is) trying to squash any other bugs that manifest because of the software change. I know that the software will be released sooner rather than later. 

They screwed the pooch on this one. After an admitted delay, they are trying to fix the mistake. 

Can the process be improved? Sure. Any process can be improved. Communication needs to be better between the lower level and the upper level. Internal documentation should be better. And they probably should have realized that the 6000 doesn't live in a vacuum. They didn't before - undoubtably they do now. 

Other than that, I don't know what else to say. Mistakes were made, they're being fixed, and hopefully the same mistakes won't be made again.


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

This is not about spin. I am a loyal dish customer. I have been a dish customer for years and have 4 of their receivers. I even tried a 501 for a short while but the UI is so brain-dead that I bought a second Tivo and got rid of the 501.

I want the option to build my home theater by selecting what I consider the best components in each category. I want that equipment to inter-operate properly. I wish that all of the AV manufacturers could agree on a common control bus and protocols so that we could plug everything together and all of the components would work seamlessly and not require manufacturers to reverse engineer each others IR codes and serial protocols. (I also wish that the 6000 had discrete IR codes for power-on/off and SD/HD select. I hate toggles.)

I hope that you are right and that dish is now aware that they do not live in a vacuum. Enough said. All I want now is my TiVo working with the 6000 again and I will go away and leave all of the fine folks at dish alone.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The 6000 does have discrete on/off codes and has a "discrete" workaround for the HD/SD toggle. The workaround macro is the one that never failed for me with my pronto. And the workaround is the original reason Dish asked me to be a beta tester - they had broken the workaround between 7.78 and 7.79.

The discrete codes are posted on here - you can do a search, or I've also posted them in the files section over at www.remotecentral.com in the pronto section. The HD/SD workaround is also posted on here, and is talked about in the pronto forum at remotecental as well.

At least I can provide you some definite good news about that tonight.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2003)

You guys have posted some very thoughtful and intelligent comments about this E* 7.81 software snafu. In my opinion, E* handled this matter poorly. It should not take a barrage of complaints from a technologically savvy group of customers like the ones posting on this site to get a response from Dish Network. I too called E* at the inception of this problem in October. I was met with recalcitrance and denials about Dish Network's accountability for their software glitch.

Dish Network and others here claim that they cannot be responsible for their receiver's interactivity with third party hardware. That is one the most ridiculous statements I've heard in sometime. As many users have attested, the E* receiver is the nucleus around which many home theater systems are built. And people who use HDTV receivers are also likely to be users of PVRs, as both are cutting edge technologies. (I recently attended one of those paid research studies about HDTV viewers--almost all of us had PVR systems.) Furthermore, if E* receiver doesn't work with increasingly prevalent technologies like ReplayTV and TIVO, this information should be presented to prospective subscribers upfront, just as software and computer manufacturers warn consumers about potential conflicts with other technologies (we've all read those disclaimers on software saying it will not work with certain operating systems, etc.) But there was no warning because there was no issue in the beginning with the 6000 and these other technologies, and if there wasn't one when I signed up and paid $600 for the receiver there shouldn't be one now!

The bottom line is that Dish Network's customer service needs a serious overhaul. Reflexive denials and nonaccountability are the hallmarks of retrograde technical support, and that's what I got from Dish about this problem. I'm glad they are working on a fix now, but unfortunately this experience has permanently soured me to E* and it's likely that the first reasonable opportunity I get to leave, I will. Again, this is not so much about the beta testing and inevitability of software glitches as it is about Dish's response to the problem.


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

Thanks Mark, The IR codes sure helped!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I just got off the phone with my contact at Dish, and as of 9:00AM MST this morning, 7.83 has gone into complete rollout to all subs. Dish skipped the limited rollout phase, so everyone should be receiving 7.83 today, if you haven't downloaded it already. Great news!


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Great news Mark!! Has anyone gotten it yet? If so, any reports on it fixing the problem?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Well, I've had it for 2 days... 

My pronto macros work just like they're supposed to. I've seen reports that the tivos worked with the betas. They should work with the release as well.


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## Rickroeder (Oct 17, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I just got off the phone with my contact at Dish, and as of 9:00AM MST this morning, 7.83 has gone into complete rollout to all subs. Dish skipped the limited rollout phase, so everyone should be receiving 7.83 today, if you haven't downloaded it already. Great news!


Thanks for the timely info. I sold my 6000 after thee Tivo problem for $300. After reading your note about 7.83 release Mark called from Dish offering 6000 with 8VSB +8PSK for $149. Would not have taken the deal if not for your message. Thanks. I'll have HD and Tivo again!


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Great news Mark!! Has anyone gotten it yet? If so, any reports on it fixing the problem?


I just took the download and the macro which I have set in my Sony RM-AV3000 to switch between SD and HD is working properly again. Super!!!


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## jballard (Nov 10, 2003)

I just took the download and my TiVo is once again working. Thanks to one and all!


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

This is good news.. Glad to see the quick resolution after a bumpy ride. Hopefully I will have the new version when I get home.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2003)

I got the 7.83 upgrade today and my ReplayTV system is fully operational again. Thanks, DISH, for taking care of this problem.


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## fwdlink (Nov 8, 2003)

Kale said:


> I got the 7.83 upgrade today and my ReplayTV system is fully operational again. Thanks, DISH, for taking care of this problem.


Just took the upgrade myself and one thing I noticed, I think they actually did some tweaking too, as now I can set TIVO to the FAST setting and it is working flawlessly, in the past it would miss here and there, it's working AWESOME!!!


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

Got the 783 upgrade.

Tried setting the setting for MINREPEATS on my Harmony 768 back to 1. 6000u didn't see ANY key presses, it did see half of them when 781 came out. Changed MINREPEATS back to 4 (which was "fix" for 781, and it does work.

But wondering why I can't go back to MINREPEATS value of 1 that worked prior to 781.


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## jfoodman (Nov 14, 2003)

At least for me, the button I had programmed on my pronto for "Guide" no longer works. Also, the SD/HD switch (which is/was not discrete but could toggle back and forth) I had setup in a Macro stopped working. Both work fine from the 6000 remote, but I'm wondering if the codes changed? Anyone have these same problems, or anyone have them working fine? If it is code changes, where do I get the new codes from?

Thanks!
Jason


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## minesh1 (Nov 1, 2003)

Arrgggg, I'm still stuck on 781. How can I force an upgrade?


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## seedoc (Nov 14, 2003)

Well, I've been following this since it was first posted. As I lost my ability to control my JVC 300000 with the 6000 around the time my Harmony Remote went bizerk, I thought it might be related to the software update to 781. Decided to wait until the fix went into affect before posting.

After getting the upgrade to 783 this a.m., my Harmony is back up to snuff, but the 6000 still doesn't control recording on my JVC. Anyone else having this problem? (btw... my 7100 still controls it fine.) Just wondering if it's a software problem still before I go tearing this 6000 apart to replace any parts.

Thanks

seedoc

(yes, I've tried all the JVC codes... including the one that was working before ...562, I think)


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## volfan615 (Sep 18, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Great news Mark!! Has anyone gotten it yet? If so, any reports on it fixing the problem?


I woke up this morning and had 783 and everything is working again with the Pronto Neo. At last.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Hi guys, and welcome to DBSTalk! :hi:

Jason - the IR codes didn't change. All of them still work just exactly as they did before with my pronto. Are you using a delay of at least 0.2 seconds between IR codes in your HD/SD macro? I think I use 0.3 seconds, and it works perfectly. As to the guide button, try relearning it from your 6000 remote. It's possible that your learned IR code was dirty and is being read slightly differently now - it'll work if it's clean. I guess the same would go for the SD/HD macro commands as well.

minesh1 - turn it off overnight, and you should get it. Also make sure you are set to take the upgrades without confirmation.

seedoc - I have no idea about the JVC 30k. I guess try adjusting the location of your IR transmitter. Or if you're using the IR Blast method, try adjusting the location of your 6000 and/or your 30k. Other than that, I really don't know.


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## seedoc (Nov 14, 2003)

Thanks Mark.

The JVC sits above the 6000 as it always has. I suppose it's possible they've reduced the intensity of the blast? (I'll try a mirror again tonight.)


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## minesh1 (Nov 1, 2003)

Thanks for the advice. Unplugging the 6000 for a bit did the trick. Now my TiVo works great, I set it to code 10011 (fast).

Thanks to everyone one this and other boards for putting pressure on Dish, and thanks to Dish for getting this fix out as quickly as they did. Maybe in the future the CSRs won't be so quick to dismiss the initial callers as incompetent loons, but rather understand we are the cutting edge users with dedication and devotion to our HT equipment.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

My Pronto Neo is working great!! Lot more snappy and pressing the numeric keys is a lot more reliable. Kudos to the Guys at Dish for a quick resolution after a rocky start. 

I would like to point out something, Dish is a big company and in most big company communication between the engineering party and 1st level support is minimal at best. I work for a 4000+ employee company and we almost never hear from 1st level or even third level. I constently hear complaints about CSR not knowing the bugs or the problems or pushing a problem off. Though it is obvious that Dish could use some more communication mechanisms internal to their process, I would consider them better than most and most of the time helpful. I think sometimes we forget that big companies dont communicate between groups well and as sad as that may sound, it is a fact. Dish seems to be no different in this regard to ever company I have worked for. if one has the expectation that the person you are talking to is aware of all the problems with all the receivers, I would say the person's expectations are a little off. 

One other point, the tone of voice has lot to do with how one is treated by a CSR. If one gets on the phone with a very argumentive tone and talks in a degrading manner it usually results in a very negative experience. If you look on this board you will find examples of this all over ther board.  I am sure I have done one or two by accident myself. 

My suggestion is to do your homework and be aggressive but polite. Starting the conversation with... "Your damn bug ridden receiver's software upgrade broke my remote" most likely will not get you anywhere. The CSRs are the first stop on the road and they are not well trained in every aspect of the product line. Also, don't fold 10 complaints into one conversation. Tends to confuse things and ends up in a big mess. I had done that one one occassion. 


Being a software engineer, I deal with arrogant people all the time. Tends to be a trait of the industry. At times I have found myself act that way and found the results usually are not postive. I have read a number of threads that the tone as resulted in a flame war. I just recently caught myself in one and have backed out. If the same tone is used during a CSR conversation, I am not surprised that it does not get ugly. I always try and remember, CSRs are just a messanger they did not cause my pain. 

This board was obviously key to showing there was a problem and that is what makes boards like this Rock!! I am glad to see that this problem has been worked through and I hope that each of us has learned something from all the posts on this thread. 

Cheers!!!


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2003)

minesh1 said:


> Maybe in the future the CSRs won't be so quick to dismiss the initial callers as incompetent loons, but rather understand we are the cutting edge users with dedication and devotion to our HT equipment.


Well said. AMEN!

My biggest complaint.

Face it, with the 6000, the users are definitely in the top 5% of the E* gene pool in terms of HT knowledge.


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

My Harmony remote still doesn't work with the old (pre 781) setting of MINREPEATS =1 or =2.

It's interesting that others find the 783 upgrade helped their remotes. My Harmony 768 still seems to work as bad with the 783 as with the 781 upgrade.

UPDATE: It does work with the new 783 upgrade! I took out the whole code I'd added for MINREPEATS = 4 for the 781 upgrade, instead of just changing the value, and things are back to normal.
(I also reset the 6000 receiver, don't know if that had any effect.)
Thanks Dish.


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## marko (Jan 9, 2003)

My 6000 is much rmore responsive with the 7.83 update. Much better.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

After reading all the reports of being able to use TiVo code 10011 Fast with the new update I tried it but had to go back to Medium speed. All of the three digit channels changed fine, but I had intermittent problems with 4 digit channels. Anyone else see this?


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## JohnM (Nov 6, 2003)

My One-For-All Cinema 7 is back to working great with 7.83. All the On/Off, HD/SD, etc macros work well. Thanks Dish.


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## Littlebit92 (Aug 18, 2003)

I have read this thread with much interest. Am I reading correctly that you can use a Harmony IR remote to control the 6000 receiver? I thought the 6000 did not have IR ability at all. My Harmony remote will be delivered on Monday and I am looking forward to it even more if I can control the 6000 with it as well.


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

Littlebit92 said:


> I have read this thread with much interest. Am I reading correctly that you can use a Harmony IR remote to control the 6000 receiver? I thought the 6000 did not have IR ability at all. My Harmony remote will be delivered on Monday and I am looking forward to it even more if I can control the 6000 with it as well.


My Harmony 768 controls the 6000 by IR just fine!


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## Littlebit92 (Aug 18, 2003)

ride525 said:


> My Harmony 768 controls the 6000 by IR just fine!


All this time I "assumed" I wouldn't be able to control the 6000 with an IR remote!!! I have no idea where I got that impression but I am glad I was wrong. Thanx!!


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

Littlebit92 said:


> All this time I "assumed" I wouldn't be able to control the 6000 with an IR remote!!! I have no idea where I got that impression but I am glad I was wrong. Thanx!!


I am using my Sony AV-3000 to control my 6000 and it also works just fine. It _did_ have a few minor problems when the 7.81 software downloaded but it got fixed with the latest release.


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## Littlebit92 (Aug 18, 2003)

Bobby94928 said:


> I am using my Sony AV-3000 to control my 6000 and it also works just fine. It _did_ have a few minor problems when the 7.81 software downloaded but it got fixed with the latest release.


Thanx Bobby
It sounds like I will finally be down to only 1 remote and I cant wait. Hopefully the Harmony will be as easy to use as they say so my husband will be able to use the system without calling for help.


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## Littlebit92 (Aug 18, 2003)

Well, I received my Harmony 659 remote yesterday and it is great. At first it wouldnt control my 6000 but I changed the receiver address back to 1 and it works perfectly. I cant believe I am down to 1 remote that the technically challenged can use too.


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## cab (Oct 13, 2002)

Um, did dish do another download or something? I'm back to having the problem with Tivo not controlling the 6000. It worked fine Friday night, and Saturday am, it's dead again just like before.

My current software versions are:
783PCNAD-N Bootstrap=12ABCNAD

These are the exact same symptoms I had before with the 781 software download. That time i thought it was my tivo and actually went so far to rip everything out of my cabinet, go buy a new tivo, hook it up and then find out the channel change problem existed in a brand new Tivo. More research here, and I found out about the Dish software download.

My talks with Dish on the phone were back then, let's just say, very un-happy. The response I got from 3 different csr's was pretty much along the lines of 'we don't care if we lose you as a customer over this. We may not fix the problem and there is nothing you can do about it.' Really gave me a bad taste in my mouth.

Is there anyway to prevent dish from forcing a software download to the 6000 whenever they want? It would seem the setup option in the menus only works for certain downloads.

Would suck to loose my Tivo again during christmas week.

thanks in advance
cab


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2003)

Just checked (same software version as yours on my 6000), everything seems to be working fine as of this morning, channels change as well as they have since the bug was fixed. Have you checked to make sure nobody accidentally knocked off the IR transmitter(s)? 

--
Umberto


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well as of this morning. I don't see any IR problem with my 6000 and Pronto. I did have the problem before.. Like the previous user, check external issues it might be something else this time.


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## archer (Nov 21, 2003)

cab said:


> Um, did dish do another download or something? I'm back to having the problem with Tivo not controlling the 6000. It worked fine Friday night, and Saturday am, it's dead again just like before.


I to seem to be having a new problem with my dish recievers and sending an IR. I am using a Pronto and it happens in the quide. When you press guide it seems like the first press for up, down, or info do nothing but then after that first press they work fine. After a little bit of inactivity, it then takes the two press's again.

Everything was working fine after dish last fixed the 6000, this just started in the last week or two. It also seems to be affecting my 501 the same way.


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## TVBob (Dec 19, 2003)

cab said:


> Um, did dish do another download or something? I'm back to having the problem with Tivo not controlling the 6000. It worked fine Friday night, and Saturday am, it's dead again just like before.


I'm having the exact same problem on my DISH 6000

6000 (8VSB/8PSK)
DNASP010 RevA21
783PCNAD-N
12ABCNAD
Remote Addr: 1
Loc. ID: 60be1a7a​I can only get the 6000 to recognize IR input by pressing the "Output" button and placing the receiver into HD mode (blue LED). Once I switch it back to SD mode (amber LED), almost 80% of the IR commands sent to the DISH 6000 are completely ignored. It seems to get worse if I select a local digital channel tuned by the 8VSB module, like channel 005-1. Most RF commands are recognized OK, but IR commands are not. Switch back to HD, and all is well again with all IR remotes.

To DISH Engineers (are you here?) how to replicate the problem:

Unplug the UHF remote antenna and replace it with a shielded attenuator.
Move the DISH 6000 remote at least 10' away to force it to be used as an IR device, rather than a UHF device, or better yet, use a pure IR remote such as a Pronto or MX-500, or an IR repeater like those made by X10
Press the output button so that the blue LED lights up (6000 is in HD mode)
Tune to channel 300 using the three key presses: *3 - 0 - 0*
Press the SD/HD button on the IR remote to put the receiver back into SD mode (amber LED)
Tune to channel 005-1 by pressing five keys: *0 - 0 - 5 - 0 - 1*
Try to tune to channel 300 by pressing *3 - 0 - 0*
Try to tune to channel 9430 by pressing *9 - 4 - 3 - 0*
Try to tune to channel 007-1 by pressing *0 - 0 - 7*
If you get stuck, the front panel buttons always seem to work fine.

There's still a bug here folks, one that affects DISH 6000's that are switched between HD and SD mode (as are all 6000s connected to a TiVo or ReplayTV). In HD mode, there doesn't seem to be any problem with IR commands, but in SD mode there are real problems. Is anyone else seeing this?

As a workaround, I have set up manual timers on the DISH6000 to get recordings to change to the correct channel at the appropriate time, since I can't rely on the ReplayTV's IR blaster to change channels any more.

This is _not_ new bug that first showed up in 7.81 in November. I've had intermittent problems with this for quite a long time, but it has really become a much bigger problem for me in the last six months. Unplugging the 6000 only seems to solve the problem for a very short time.


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## Bon (Dec 21, 2003)

I'm new to this forum but not new to the 6000 and pronto problems. I recently upgraded from a Marantz RC-5000i to a Pronto TSU-7000. I had the 781 firmware in the 6000 and I couldn't make anything work. In desperation I found this site and learned of the 781 problem. I just downloaded the 783 upgrade and every thing is working great! My macros only need a .1 sec delay after each channel number. The only "crutch" that I had to retain in my macros is to first send a "view" command just before sending channel numbers. This seems to wake up the IR on the 6000 and the channel numbers go right in without any need for double numbers or big delays. Kudos to DishNetwork, the 6000 has never worked so well!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

TVBob - I'll send your message along to the Dish engineers about the 6000. I wasn't having any problems after 7.83 before I disconnected my 6000.


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## cab (Oct 13, 2002)

Thanks to the folks that replied about my problem. It was indeed on my end, at least I think it was. Grrrrr. it's called 2 cats playing with wires! They had pulled on the wire just enough to losen the plug from the back of the tivo. Blasted furr balls! Anyone want the beginings to a nice fur coat :nono: 

At least I hope thats all it was. I was able to change a channel last night after fixing this. Hopefully, that's all they did.


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## TVBob (Dec 19, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> TVBob - I'll send your message along to the Dish engineers about the 6000. I wasn't having any problems after 7.83 before I disconnected my 6000.


Thanks Mark.

Last weekend I was away, and I left the DISH 6000 turned on for ReplayTV recordings. But sometime during the weekend, the 6000 put up a message "Please insert Smartcard." I'd never seen that message, and I've had the 6000 for over two years.

So I did what it said, and voila, the channel changing bug in SD mode seems to have disappeared. I can now control the DISH 6000 with my ReplayTV or MX-500, and it seems to work perfectly in either SD mode or HD mode.

Moral: If disconnecting/reconnecting the power doesn't fix a problem with the DISH 6000, try a Smartcard reset (remove and reinsert the Smartcard).

(I should have known that).


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Glad it worked out for you, Bob.


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## sbill67 (Dec 16, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> The 6000 does have discrete on/off codes and has a "discrete" workaround for the HD/SD toggle. The workaround macro is the one that never failed for me with my pronto. And the workaround is the original reason Dish asked me to be a beta tester - they had broken the workaround between 7.78 and 7.79.
> 
> The discrete codes are posted on here - you can do a search, or I've also posted them in the files section over at www.remotecentral.com in the pronto section. The HD/SD workaround is also posted on here, and is talked about in the pronto forum at remotecental as well.
> 
> At least I can provide you some definite good news about that tonight.


Mark, I will give you credit, you are a patient guy. Thanks for all your GREAT information. Some people appreciate what DISH and it staff do for us.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Thanks sbill67. We try very hard around here to help all of you out the best we can. (And I don't work for Dish - just have a good relationship with them.)


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