# Manual recording for OTA subchannel with no guide info?



## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

One year later (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176337) I still have this problem.

First, Dish really ought to include listings for This and the other major sub-channels. Until that happens, my only choices to record a movie from the Denver This affiliate are recording a honking big hunk of time that includes the movie or doing without.

Dish response team and DBSTalk experts, are there any other good options?


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## GravelChan (Jan 30, 2005)

FTA Michael said:


> One year later (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176337) I still have this problem.
> 
> First, Dish really ought to include listings for This and the other major sub-channels. Until that happens, my only choices to record a movie from the Denver This affiliate are recording a honking big hunk of time that includes the movie or doing without.
> 
> Dish response team and DBSTalk experts, are there any other good options?


You have to set up a manual timer. Press DVR three times, Timers, Manual timer, after you enter the channel to record you can enter start/end times.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

You could also try pestering Dish to add your OTA info to the uplink.

I have OTA EPG data for my "This" sub-channel in my DMA... so some of us have the EPG data while others don't.

I assume you do subscribe to locals via Dish in order to get the EPG data... and Dish carries locals in your market? That being the case, it's a matter of enough people bugging them to add the EPG data for the subchannels.


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

Has anyone been successful in getting Dish to turn on the EPG data for their locals? I'm in a slightly different situation in that we have an old grandfathered in config where we don't have the locals since we've been getting them OTA all this time. Sounds like they don't offer than anymore but they've let us keep it. Anyway, for about a week, we were getting the guide info for the OTA channels but that went away a couple of days ago. Just wondering if anyone had any success in convincing Dish that they should flip this bit for us and keep it that way. I know that they are probably preferring to get the extra $$ for the locals but since they don't carry all the sub channels and I'd likely not get the quality I get from OTA, I'd prefer to just get guide info and not have them need to send me the locals. 

Just hoping to get an idea on what response folks have gotten on this subject from Dish.

thanks peterb


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

My understanding was always if you didnt pay for locals, you didnt get the guide data for OTA locals....was that not accurate or has something changed?


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## Ray [email protected] Network (Dec 28, 2010)

pboggini,

The EPG information available for OTA channels is streamed from our satellites along with the channel frequencies. When you subscribe to locals from us and you have an OTA connected, some of the EPG is provided for the OTA EPG but not all information. Normally you are not able to get OTA local EPG without the local feed from us so I don't know how you were able to get it for that short duration but that is the reason you do not get any EPG information now. If you have any further questions, please let us know.


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## Gio (Aug 22, 2002)

I received the EPG for about a week also and now it is gone as of a couple of days ago.


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

It seems reasonable that you'd stream the EPG info for the locals that someone subscribes to but since Dish doesn't provide all the sub channels, I prefer to get this OTA. Now, I know Dish knows how to get the EPG info from OTA because:

1) I have one of those $40 ATSC->NTSC boxes made by Dish that does this and
2) I was getting EPG info w/o subscribing to locals for a couple of weeks

So, I don't think it's a matter of getting the feed from the satellite, rather I think it's a matter of allowing the OTA broadcast EPG to show up in the guide rather than blocking it. I'm assuming this is a bit that gets flipped when they enable locals otherwise you'd just get EPG info for the channels that Dish provides and not the others which would be a bit odd. 

I'd love to see Dish flip that bit for long time customers like me who are getting locals OTA rather than blocking it.

peterb


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Pony up the fee for locals like everyone else and you can have the guide data...you probably weren't supposed to be getting the data anyway...


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

Some of us not spend money unnecessarily. Yea, I know, I'm a dying bread but I already get the channels for free (well not free, I bought the antenna and put it up) and the broadcasters already send it for free. Dish charging for something that is given out for free seems a bit odd. I totally get it if i couldn't get locals and I got them from Dish, I'd be willing to pay. But, I'm not one of those suckers who just plops down money because someone else thinks it's a good idea. I'm fine with not having the EPG, I got along w/o it for awhile but it does seem a bit odd to me that it's out there for free and Dish is blocking it.

peterb


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

They do not use the PSIP data, they buy their data from Tribune just like Directv does...this is the way both sat providers have always done it...it costs them money to get the guide data the way they do, they pass that cost onto the customer, and have been doing it for years...


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

Right, that's for the EPG data for the channels they provide which is a subset of the OTA's in my market at least likely others. My point is that the OTA channels already broadcast the EPG info (you can debate which is better and likely the Tribune stuff is better, shrug, but there is free EPG data being sent to an input attached to the 722. This is being blocked (I always assumed it, now I think it's been proven sine I had it for 2 weeks) by Dish. As mentioned, if I couldn't get locals, I'd be happy to pay Dish for them and would understand the corresponding costs for getting said signal and EPG info. I'm supplying my receiver with locals bearing the costs myself since it gets me locals to any TV attached to that cable and the corresponding OTA EPG info (which the TV's connected directly to that get). I just wish Dish wouldn't deliberately block that info in the hopes that I'd balk and pay for locals that I don't need. It's too bad others just caved and bought them since that rewards Dish for doing this. Oh well, it's their choice.

peterb


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

FTA Michael said:


> One year later (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176337) I still have this problem.
> 
> First, Dish really ought to include listings for This and the other major sub-channels. Until that happens, my only choices to record a movie from the Denver This affiliate are recording a honking big hunk of time that includes the movie or doing without.
> 
> Dish response team and DBSTalk experts, are there any other good options?


If you pay for your locals you will get some, but not all the subchannel guide data. In my DMA I get the data for THIS on WUAB 43.2.

Unfortunately there is still no data for Antenna TV on WJW 8.2. I understand the Antenna TV guide data is in the stream for other DMA's, why not for Cleveland?

I brought this up earlier in the year to a DIRT member when Antenna TV was brand new. I find it odd that THIS guide data came on the second day it was on the air. I wonder why there is this disparity? Could it be the ownership of THIS or WUAB (or both) pulled some strings to get the guide activated?


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

If I subscribe to my locals I will not just get some of the EPG info, I'll get some of the channels.. I've had Dish for over 12 years and back then the only locals were the big 4 and a national PBS. At that time, I decided that in order to get all my locals (two PBS and two independent [ok WB and UPN back then]) I needed an antenna. I purchased the equipment and have been receiving locals since. Before we got the 722, I had a converter box made by Dish to convert the digital signal to analog and I got EPG info. When I got the 722, I figured I would too. Too bad Dish blocks it, sigh. Anyway, if Dish had all the channels and sub channels for my DMA and all the EPG info, then it might be worth the money to pony up. But, since they don't have everything, it's not.

peterb


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

pboggini said:


> If I subscribe to my locals I will not just get some of the EPG info, I'll get some of the channels.. I've had Dish for over 12 years and back then the only locals were the big 4 and a national PBS. At that time, I decided that in order to get all my locals (two PBS and two independent [ok WB and UPN back then]) I needed an antenna. I purchased the equipment and have been receiving locals since. Before we got the 722, I had a converter box made by Dish to convert the digital signal to analog and I got EPG info. When I got the 722, I figured I would too. Too bad Dish blocks it, sigh. Anyway, if Dish had all the channels and sub channels for my DMA and all the EPG info, then it might be worth the money to pony up. But, since they don't have everything, it's not.
> 
> peterb


You get a lot more local TV today delivered by Dish's satellites. Nearly every OTA station's main feed in SD, plus the "big 4" networks plus PBS in HD (at least in the larger markets). I even get a station my antenna could never pick up that is in my DMA.


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

So I wasn't overly clear. When I first got dish I only got the 4 main networks and national PBS. Now, they have all the main stations but none of the substations. So I still get more channels via antenna in both HD and SD just not the guide info on the 722. The TVs with both dish and antenna feed, tv2 get the guide info. My beef is blocking something coming in. If the had all the subchannels and the guide info, it might be worth it. 

Peterb


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

pboggini said:


> So I wasn't overly clear. When I first got dish I only got the 4 main networks and national PBS. Now, they have all the main stations but none of the substations. So I still get more channels via antenna in both HD and SD just not the guide info on the 722. The TVs with both dish and antenna feed, tv2 get the guide info. My beef is blocking something coming in. If the had all the subchannels and the guide info, it might be worth it.
> 
> Peterb


When I first got Dish - there were few if any locals - it was a BIG DEAL to me when the Raleigh Big 4 were first available. Combining that with the national PBS, and the Superstations for WB / UPN - I was in hog heaven - it meant I could completely cutoff cable.

As for now - there's a good possibility that Dish maybe carrying the channel guide for at least your main stations (and maybe even their subchannels) - at least Stuart has said they carry our Raleigh Durham ones. As for the ones they don't - well - there's always online guides, and then you would program your DVR like a standard VCR - channel, Start time, duration - based on guide info you got elsewhere


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

So yea, I know all that. Dish does not have any of the sub channels for my DMA nor my in-laws from what I can tell. There are two sources for guide info, the one Dish uses and the ones the OTA's send out. I don't mind not having the one Dish uses (and pays for) since I'm not paying Dish for locals. I do mind Dish blocking the one's the OTA's send out for "free" in addition to the OTA signals. To me, I'm looking to use something that the OTA's are providing for free (sure it's probably not as good as what Dish pays for which I'm fine with) and something that I had for a couple of weeks until Dish likely discovered and started blocking again.

This tells me that 1) it's available, 2) Dish can unblock just this w/o having to activate the locals and 3) they've made the choice to link the two to encourage folks to purchase locals that they may or may not actually need. 

To repeat, one has choices on how to get locals. They are:

1) Dish, get likely all the main channels but no sub channels from what I see. Get guide info that Dish pays for. Since Dish pays carriage fees to the broadcasters, I'm cool with having to pay for this solution. 

2) OTA, get all the channels broadcast including sub channels and guide info (which may or may not be as good). This is "free" assuming one pays for the antenna, cable, etc.

I've done 2 since when I signed up Dish did not have all the mains and since I wanted/needed channels that Dish didn't have. I would have hoped that Dish wouldn't use a tactic to try to encourage me to buy something I really don't need to get something I should get. 

If anyone at Dish is reading this, I hope you can see what I'm talking about and encourage your company to not block something that the OTA's are sending out for their users to use. 

peterb


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

The other point is that if you change your current package - you won't have any choice but to take locals. We're talking the Top xxx / Dish America xxx packages that I'm pretty sure of on this.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

pboggini said:


> So yea, I know all that. Dish does not have any of the sub channels for my DMA nor my in-laws from what I can tell. There are two sources for guide info, the one Dish uses and the ones the OTA's send out. I don't mind not having the one Dish uses (and pays for) since I'm not paying Dish for locals. I do mind Dish blocking the one's the OTA's send out for "free" in addition to the OTA signals. To me, I'm looking to use something that the OTA's are providing for free (sure it's probably not as good as what Dish pays for which I'm fine with) and something that I had for a couple of weeks until Dish likely discovered and started blocking again.
> 
> This tells me that 1) it's available, 2) Dish can unblock just this w/o having to activate the locals and 3) they've made the choice to link the two to encourage folks to purchase locals that they may or may not actually need.
> 
> ...


I believe you're still missing the point that the OTA tuner offerings from DISH arent blocking the what you call "free guide info already in the OTA data stream", the receivers dont understand it, because they were designed to use the data that DISH provides....besides isnt there there only like 2 hours of guide data in the PSIP?


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

True. We are grandfathered in so this is likely really just an issue for a few folks like me. 

peterb


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

It's not that E* is "blocking" the EPG from the OTA feeds, the technology E* used for their EPG differs from what is being broadcast. The OTA stations use PSIP data that only goes out a few days while E* carries the EPG data on a satellite transponder that holds 9 days. 

I believe all our STB's and DVR's would have to be swapped out if E* decided to use the PSIP data. I'm guessing it's a hardware issue as well as software.


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

If they aren't blocking it how do you explain the fact that I got guide data for two weeks w/o having any dish locals? I would have believed you a month ago but I don't now 

Peterb


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

If you look around here a little you'll see that for some reason the guide data was accidentally turned on for people that didnt pay for locals by mistake for a few weeks. SO in that case, it was an accident and you shouldnt have been getting the guide data without paying for locals in your package, which is how it normally is.


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

Right guide data was unblocked for us, which I think should be normal. It wasn't dish guide data because it had all the sub channels which dish does not have in my dma. 

Peterb


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

pboggini said:


> Right guide data was unblocked for us, which I think should be normal. It wasn't dish guide data because it had all the sub channels which dish does not have in my dma.
> 
> Peterb


The only EPG data you will ever see is Dish supplied.

In many market Dish supplies subchannel data too, even though they don't carry those channels via satellite.

None of the Dish receivers in service designed for SAT service (Those TV Pal ones are excluded from this discussion for obvious reasons) use the PSIP data for anything other than determining the virtual channel names.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

pboggini said:


> Right guide data was unblocked for us, which I think should be normal. It wasn't dish guide data because it had all the sub channels which dish does not have in my dma.
> 
> Peterb


You're still missing part of the picture here....it was DISH guide data. One of the reasons to subscribe to locals thru DISH is so they provide you the OTA guide data, which should include most if not all subchannels you can receive via OTA in your market. Are you starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel now?


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

So are you sure that's how it works or are you speculating? If you know the software and how it works, then fine, just say that. If you don't, you are probably speculating. 

I'm not sure you are understanding all of what I'm saying here. There are two types of guide data out there at least. One the OTA's provide for free which comes into an antenna, through the cable and hits the receiver. As mentioned, this is PSIP. Either I was seeing this guide info for a couple of weeks or I was seeing Dish guide data which would then presume that Dish gets guide data and provides guide data for more than just the OTA's they sell. As also mentioned Dish does use some PSIP data to remap the channels to the right place so either I was seeing PSIP guide data or Dish is throwing away free guide data at the receiver and presenting me with "Digital Service."

In short, my point is, Dish is the company that seems to be a bit more focused on the user than Cable, ATT or Direct in my experience. It surprises me that Dish would chose to throw away free guide data (sure it doesn't go out as far, but does that matter, to everyone? Not me) and create a scenario where they look to be forcing people to pay for something that is actually free (well actually no, I've paid so Dish would be making me pay twice since I'm far enough away that I needed to put a pretty good sized antenna on my roof) because it's wrapped up in their package.

I'm pretty sure you just don't get what I'm talking about here but that's fine. I didn't have the guide data before, I had a glimmer of hope that Dish was more user focused but I guess I was wrong and they aren't, bummer.

peterb


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Dish is plenty customer focused - but that guide data from Tribune is not free.

PSIP and to some extent TVGOS data are the OTA ones.


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

I know that guide data from Tribune is not free, PSIP is though and gets all the way to not just the receiver but the software from what I've seen here. Tossing that out was a choice made which is unfortunate. Saying someone is customer focused is one thing, using that to drive business decisions is another. Not suggesting anything malicious, just that no one seems to have thought that people who had been using the Dish ATSC->NTSC boxes with PSIP guide info might want the same functionality in their 722's.

To recap, I'm not looking for Dish to give me something for free that they are paying for. I ponied up and put up an antenna and get the OTA's and guide info to my TV tuners. I loved the fact that my 722 came with an OTA tuner so that I could just change the channels on Dish and get the OTA's rather than changing the TV channel. It would have been cool to just pass the PSIP guide info too. 

peterb


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

pboggini said:


> So are you sure that's how it works or are you speculating? If you know the software and how it works, then fine, just say that. If you don't, you are probably speculating.
> 
> peterb


I'm completely understanding what you are saying...I'm also telling you I know how it works. I don't think I implied in any of my earlier replies that "I think it works this way". I just flat out said, this is the way it works....DISH and Direct chose a similar approach to OTA guide data integration on their devices...they didnt use the PSIP data, which IIRC, since I rarely use the data on my tv's internal tuner, only goes out a few hours....virtually useless for DVR name based scheduling, unless thats just the way many tv's choose to implement because they are not actual recording devices. If you would like to shell out a few hundred for on of those DISH DTV-PAL standalone dvr's, more power to you, but I actually like the OTA guide data integration...I dont have to futz with changing tv inputs, or switching sources to watch OTA vs. sat channels, its all seamless. I will say that I dont think cable even gives you the option of using OTA and integrating the OTA guide data into their set top boxes, and have you seen the PQ of the locals on cable vs OTA, you couldn't pay me be a cable subscriber...macroblocky pixellated crap...


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, I think you are a lot closer to understanding me but not quite. Thanks for confirming that you know how it all works, honestly, I didn't know as you never said so I wanted to confirm. Lots of people (not you here thankfully) say things and don't necessarily know how they work so I tend to question. 

That said, I can certainly understand why Dish and Direct chose to purchase Tribune data for DVR'ing. I'm sure it works very well and it probably makes the programming easier. Of course I will note that you can purchase OTA DVR's that will record things for you and they seem to do just fine with the OTA data so I don't think it's "virtually useless for DVR name based scheduling" maybe it's just a bit harder, shrug. I too like OTA integration but since I've already sunk the $$ into an antenna (if I lived close enough for one of those home made bow tie ones maybe I wouldn't mind as much but alas I'm far enough away to need a bigger antenna) it seems a bit pointless to me to pay for something again. Sure, I could look at it as I'm paying $6/month for guide data which seems a bit much to me but then again, I don't know how much Tribune costs per person. 

Anyway, my point is that there is free guide data out there and offering it would offer Dish customers another option. I could be the only guy in the world who wants this but I sort of doubt it. I assume the TV manufacturers (and Dish for that matter with the $40 DTV-PAL) felt getting the free guide data was worthwhile when building them. 

Either way, I've done manual timers before and will continue to do them. If I ever get to the point where I need the locals from Dish I'll gladly pay the $6/month and enjoy the guide info since then the $$ seems worth it. At this point, it's not since I only gain guide data. 

Thanks for the education on how it all works, much appreciated.

peterb


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

pboggini said:


> Anyway, my point is that there is free guide data out there and offering it would offer Dish customers another option. I could be the only guy in the world who wants this but I sort of doubt it. I assume the TV manufacturers (and Dish for that matter with the $40 DTV-PAL) felt getting the free guide data was worthwhile when building them.
> 
> peterb


I totally get and agree with what you are saying. Guide data for OTA channels that the provider (Dish) choose to put in their guide stream (sourced from Tribune, etc) should be the first option, but failing that, the boxes could display and utilize PSIP sourced data as a fallback position. If the OTA station does not even provide that, then show "digital service" or "no information available".


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The real reason why Dish (and probably Direct as well) don't use the PSIP EPG data...

That data has not always been reliable... and is not always there for all customers in all markets. When it is there, it is not an extended EPG like Dish gives for 9 days on their DVRs. It is usually less than 24 hours... so it would be almost useless for a DVR to have such limited EPG data.

Also... IF Dish did use that PSIP EPG data... then IF it was wrong, people would still to complain to Dish. Granted, the Tribune data is wrong sometimes too... but at least Dish could threaten to stop paying for it IF they don't get on the ball... Dish has no leverage over an incorrect PSIP EPG.

Bottom line... Dish isn't in the business to provide you access to OTA signals... they do it because they can, and because a lot of customers like it... and Dish tries to integrate as much as they can without creating even more headache.

This is one of those rare customer-unfriendly decisions that I actually have to agree with Dish about.


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

Hmm, interesting. Dish isn't in the business of providing me a means of getting OTA channels integrated in the guide either and I'm assuming that people are just as likely to complain to Dish about their OTA signal being Dish's fault as they'd be to guide info being wrong. Heck, I bet people would complain more about that as guide info is more of a nuisance than not being able to watch TV. Not sure I follow your logic at all.

To me, I'm more of a give people a choice type of person. Dish has been better about this than most but just because you are better than the other guys it doesn't mean you are doing your best. And, I've worked for companies who were the best but didn't take care of customers or look for better ways to do things and they didn't tend to stay on top.

I like Dish better than any of the other options (so the complaints about how awful cable are really don't mean much to me, I don't like it anyway). I'm just pointing out something they could do better. Oh, and if complaints are a problem, just make the guide info an option (enable OTA PSIP guide?) with a pop up that tells the user that it's non Dish provided data. It's really not THAT hard.

peterb


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

pboggini said:


> Hmm, interesting. Dish isn't in the business of providing me a means of getting OTA channels integrated in the guide either and I'm assuming that people are just as likely to complain to Dish about their OTA signal being Dish's fault as they'd be to guide info being wrong.


That wasn't my main point... but it is still a true one. The primary purpose of Dish is to sell satellite programming. They have integrated (or optional add-ons for some receivers) OTA tuners to appease those customers who want both... and Dish does a reasonably good job of that integration into the EPG.

Not having EPG data for all sub-channels is a nuisance... and I grant you that I wish they wouldn't tie the EPG to a subscription to locals... I wish Dish would just provide the data and end all the arguments... but I can't blame them for trying to get every dollar they can. I can just blame them for the EPG data that you still don't get even when you pay.



pboggini said:


> To me, I'm more of a give people a choice type of person.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm just pointing out something they could do better. Oh, and if complaints are a problem, just make the guide info an option (enable OTA PSIP guide?) with a pop up that tells the user that it's non Dish provided data. It's really not THAT hard.


It may or may not be "hard" but it would be different and additional programming effort to create and maintain... so it wouldn't be "Free" since they would have to pay someone to write the code... but be that as it may...

You are still missing the primary reason... PSIP OTA EPG data is not always good, consistent, or even available for you... and even when there, it is not something that you can see what is on 2 days from now or a week like the Dish EPG data... so it would be almost useless for your Dish DVR to even try to use the PSIP data.


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## pboggini (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm not missing that point about psip, I get it (both in understanding its limitations and having it on my non dish 722 ota tuners so pun intended). So I really am only arguing the decision to not include it despite the fact that they read that stuff in (or part of it). Sounds like we both agree. Honestly dish is the one company that I'd expect to do this not comcast or att. They've typically put more effort into the user and gained loyalty. Sure there would be software costs but they'd be minimal and they are dealing with this data and all my other tuners have it including my dish made dtv-pal.

Peterb


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