# NASCAR 2014 / 2015



## James Long

If what I've heard proposed goes into effect I may be done with NASCAR.

NASCAR wants to adjust the chase to create a playoff system. The current proposal is to chose the top 16 drivers at the end of the first 26 weeks based on wins ... then every three races eliminate four drivers from the championship, reset the points and let the final four battle for the championship in ONE RACE winner take all event.

I hate it.

NASCAR says they want more "game seven moments" but in my opinion this is too much manipulation. Imagine the world series - or another best of seven series - where one team wins four straight games. Not enough drama ... so make them play three more. Only the last game counts. In such a series one team could win six games in a row but lose the last game and lose the championship. That level of manipulation is NOT a "game seven" moment. It is a cheap stunt.

I hope the proposal goes away ... I do not mind the chase being made up of winners. Win and you're in regardless of how many drivers make the chase. If you don't win a race you don't make the chase. That sounds good to me. But leveling the points every three races and making the final race the only one that matters for the championship goes too far.


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## jimmie57

Sounds like many of the other sports except there would be 4 possible to win instead of 2.

I like Nascar. Watch it all the time.
I like Drag Racing. Watch it all the time also.

Will be start your engines real soon now.

Can't wait to see how the new outfit / drivers, etc. at Stewart Haas racing do this year with all the changes.


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## kikkenit2

Nascar is a joke and this proves it. The only sport/race where the favorite competitor never wins.
They should make a rule that lets Junior win once in a while.


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## jimmie57

The crowd would go wild if Dale won again. He is overdue for sure.


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## Cyber36

Yeah, change all the rules back to 1980. Let"s go racin boys!!


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## yosoyellobo

Can you imagine the last four getting wipe out on the first lap. Change is not always good.


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## jimmie57

yosoyellobo said:


> Can you imagine the last four getting wipe out on the first lap. Change is not always good.


That is a nasty thought for sure and it is possible for all 4 to get wiped out if it is a wreck, multiple wrecks and or a combination with mechanical failures.


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## James Long

Trying to make NASCAR like other sports will always fail ... it isn't like other sports.

The NFL has 32 teams ... they pair up for games and every week half of the teams that play win. When the playoffs begin the teams that don't make the cut end their season. Each week teams are eliminated until two play for the championship.

The NBA has 30 teams ... they too pair up for games and half of the teams that play each day win. They have win or go home playoffs (best of seven games) and a championship series (best of seven games).

MLB has 30 teams ... paired up for series of games with half of the teams in each game winning. Their playoffs are best of five games for the divisions and best of seven for the league and world series championship.

At no time are more than two teams playing in each NFL, NBA or MLB event. The NFL does not put all 32 teams on the same field every weekend to see who is best and who comes in 32nd. Wouldn't that be fun? Even putting a quarterback for each team on the field and watch them scramble over the same football to see which one could get it over the goal line would be fun. But you don't see the NFL trying that. Nor the NBA or MLB.

Why does NASCAR need to be like other sports? It is a futile effort. If NASCAR really wanted to be like other sports they would start the chase with the best teams and send all the other teams home. The fall Chicago race would be 16 teams ... Homestead would be just the four finalists. The other 40+ teams would be barred from the track!

NASCAR won't do that because of sponsorships. Sponsors won't buy the first 26 races and maybe a few more (if their driver is good). Sponsors want to be on the track for as many races as the sponsor can afford. Even if their driver comes in 43rd they get some exposure. Which means for all the bluster of trying to be more like other sports the one thing that is missing the most - elimination from the final events - will never happen.

And who would go to Homestead to watch a four car shootout?

One other thing NASCAR is missing is a change of venue. Why is the championship always in Homestead? Nothing against that track but the NFL, NBA and MLB don't have their championship in the same city every year. If NASCAR wants to be more like other sports why not move the championship every year?

It is time for NASCAR to stop ... take a step back and remember who THEY are and stop trying to be something they are not.


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## djlong

One rule change I'd make if I were NASCAR Emperor For A Day is I would radically change qualifying. The changes for road courses were a step in the right direction but not enough. For those guaranteed a spot, sure, you can take practice times and set that part of the field that way. For those NOT in the top 35, though - race your way in. Shorter heat races to determine who gets in and where on the grid they start. It would be a bit of a throwback to their roots and CERTAINLY more entertaining than watching 45 drivers take 2 laps each all by their lonesomes.


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## fluffybear

James Long said:


> One other thing NASCAR is missing is a change of venue. Why is the championship always in Homestead? Nothing against that track but the NFL, NBA and MLB don't have their championship in the same city every year. If NASCAR wants to be more like other sports why not move the championship every year?


 I wouldn't mind seeing that final race moved around as well.


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## James Long

The proposed changes to qualifying are interesting ... and less of an impact since it only affects how cars line up and not how the races are run or the championship is scored.

The proposal is to have open qualifying sessions where all cars take to the track at the same time and they qualify based on the fastest lap anytime in the window when the session is open. The top 35 is apparently going away as well (which will be bad the first time a "superstar" doesn't make the race). It sounds like you're the emperor on this one, djlong.

Now please, fix the chase by NOT changing it to the proposal.


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## jimmie57

I want them to qualify in Race Trim and do 3 laps. Then the cars can not be worked on until after the race starts.
I would also like to see the cautions laps not count. The race would be all Green Flag laps.


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## fluffybear

jimmie57 said:


> I want them to qualify in Race Trim and do 3 laps. Then the cars can not be worked on until after the race starts.
> I would also like to see the cautions laps not count. The race would be all Green Flag laps.


be thankful that NASCAR doesn't follow IRL and end races under caution.


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## jimmie57

fluffybear said:


> be thankful that NASCAR doesn't follow IRL and end races under caution.


They did that several years ago. It was the pits.


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## James Long

Green white checkered and double file restarts were a major improvement.
Resetting the points for the final four and awarding the championship based on one race is not.

Of course, it isn't surprising that the one track that will get to host the one race to decide the winner is owned by International Speedway Corporation - majority owned and controlled by the France family. NASCAR has always been the France family owned sport. I wish it were operated as a democracy not as a monopoly dictatorship.


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## djlong

James Long said:


> The proposed changes to qualifying are interesting ... and less of an impact since it only affects how cars line up and not how the races are run or the championship is scored.
> 
> The proposal is to have open qualifying sessions where all cars take to the track at the same time and they qualify based on the fastest lap anytime in the window when the session is open. The top 35 is apparently going away as well (which will be bad the first time a "superstar" doesn't make the race). It sounds like you're the emperor on this one, djlong.
> 
> Now please, fix the chase by NOT changing it to the proposal.


That *really* creeped me out... Literally HOURS after I posted that, the story on changing qualifying to a "more racing-like" format comes out...

I wonder if I should talk about how SOME races should be rotated at tracks that draw 'ok' but not a sellout. Darlington went from having 2 races that suffered from low attendance to 1 race that sells out like crazy. If a few races per year were 'rotated', then Fontana could probably sell out every OTHER year and other tracks could get a taste of NASCAR without upsetting the hard core fans too much.


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## jimmie57

I think I will like the new qualifying since it will be like the race and not just going fast 1 lap and overheating.


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## James Long

OK ... I understand that people play the game by the rules that are in place (notwithstanding when they stretch the rules). So any look at previous years results calculated with this year's formula are not to be considered accurate. A driver going into the last race in Homestead knowing he has to beat the other three drivers still in the chase is going to drive differently than a driver who just has to play it safe and finish 22nd. (One reason why NASCAR is changing the system ... the anti-climatic 22nd place finish for the champion. NASCAR fans understand that the champion one six or seven races earlier in the year ... but in the instant society the whole game has to be played in one sitting.)

Drivers will drive differently this year. But that being said ... I took last year's race results and ran them through the 2014 chase formula - which was officially announced this morning.

Assuming 16 drivers make the chase. This includes 11 winners of previous races and (I assume) the top non winners to make a grid of 16. The NASCAR website mentions the top 15 winners plus the top points person if they have no wins will be the chasers but I don't see what happens if there are not 16 winners. (Comparing to other sports - wouldn't it be stupid if the Sweet 16 only had 11 teams?)

Per NASCAR the winners must also be in the top 30 in points - and must attempt to qualify for all 26 races. So Tony Stewart who won and finished 23rd in points would be out for not attempting to qualify. NASCAR says that they would make an exception for extraordinary circumstances - so I assume that if Denny Hamlin would have come back and won in the first 26 his missed races would be forgiven. I don't know if a driver suspended for a race by NASCAR would be instantly removed from the chase for missing qualifying.

Back to the hypothetical ...
The Challenger Round - 16 drivers starting the chase with 2000 points plus three points per win in the first 26 (similar to 2013 rules). A win is an instant pass to the next round. The lowest drivers after three races are eliminated. 2014 math run on 2013 race results the eliminations would be: Carl Edwards, Joey Logano, Kasey Kahne and David Ragan. Four drivers with six combined wins. The five winless drivers remain.

The points reset to an even 3000 for the remaining 12.

The Contender Round - 12 drivers start with 3000 points and run three races. A win is an instant pass to the next round. The lowest drivers after the three races are eliminated. 2014 math run on 2013 race results the eliminations would be: Kyle Busch, Greg Biffle, Martin Truex Jr and Ryan Newman. At this point eight drivers with 13 wins would be eliminated. Jamie McMurray entered winless but won at Talladega so he advances.

The points reset to an even 4000 for the remaining 8. The four eliminated drivers go back to the 2000+ point calculation (as if they did not make the round).

The Eliminator Round - 8 drivers start with 4000 points and run three races. A win is an instant pass to the next round. The lowest drivers after the three races are eliminated. 2014 math run on 2013 race results the eliminations would be: Matt Kenseth, Clint Boyer, Kurt Busch and Jamie McMurray. At this point 12 drivers with 21 wins would be eliminated. Only one winless driver remains in the top 4. Three of the final four cars are from Hendrick Motorsports.

The Sprint Cup Championship Race - first of the four across the line wins. No bonus points for leading laps. 2014 math run on 2013 race results the winner and Sprint Cup Champion would be ...

Not Jimmie Johnson (6 wins).
Not Kevin Harvick (4 wins).
Not Jeff Gordon (1 wins).

The winless driver gets the championship. Dale Earnhardt Jr.

I guess that would be called an "upset" - at least it would be in stick and ball sports.

Restating the disclaimer ... under 2014 rules drivers will race differently knowing that mistakes in the set of three races they are in could eliminate them completely and knowing they have to beat their competition in the final race. But seeing eight race winners be the first to be eliminated from the championship series seems strange.

If my assumption about having a full field of 16 is wrong there would have been an 11 driver chase and Matt Kenseth would have been the champion.

So two ways to look at it ... either it is manipulated to allow America's favorite NASCAR driver to win a championship or the last driver to win a championship before the chase began wins again. Fun with numbers. 

PS: NASCAR doesn't need an upset victory champion. Upset victories are good for a race - but not a racing championship. leave that to people who play with sticks and balls.


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## 4HiMarks

I like the change. I think it is going to lead to more exciting races all year long. The previous system rewarded consistency and timidity mostly. Get a mechanically sound car ($, not skill), stay in the top 5 or top 10, don't take any chances, and make the Chase. Now, it matters much less if you're banging fenders side-by-side for the win on the last lap at Daytona and you wreck and finish 29th, last car on the lead lap. Next week is another race, and you only need one win on the season to make it. You're going to see more drivers taking more chances all year, especially when they get to their favorite track or one they historically do well at, instead of just at the last few races before the Chase starts.

I worry that taking all those risks is going to compromise driver safety though.

I like the idea of rotating the final race among several tracks, like the BCS did with Bowl games. It would have to be a warm weather venue, but I could see rotating between Homestead, Atlanta, Phoenix, Texas, and maybe California.


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## James Long

NASCAR says the new format makes it simple ... but the pundits are confused. I was listening to Dave Moody on NASCAR SiriusXM Channel 90 who dismissed without explanation the possibility of a winless driver (such as Dale Jr last year) ever winning the chase. His claim was the only winless driver that would be possible for would be a winless points leader at the end of the 26 races ... but he is wrong. NASCAR will pad out the field of 16 to include winless drivers who are not the points leader - and as long as winless drivers can advance (and they can) they can make it to the final race and win a championship by beating three specific drivers.

If Dave Moody can be confused by the new format the casual fans NASCAR is targeting have no hope.

The points change in 2011 tightened up the championship and made every position on the track count. Losing the championship by one point could be done by not being ahead of one car any time during the chase - which pushed all of the chase drivers to get the best finish possible every race - not just the races where they had a good car. This change puts too much emphasis on winning. Win Chicago and you might as well start and park the next two races - you're in!

The chase tightened up the points so any of the top 10 then 12 (or 13) top drivers could win the championship - but managed to do it in a way that performance in past races always mattered. Now we'll have seven races to go with the slate clean except for being in the top 8. A winless driver equal to a driver with seven or more wins? Not good.

NASCAR's pundits are asking people to give the new format a chance ... there isn't much we can do about it anyways since NASCAR controls the rules. Hopefully this year will suck as much as the people who are against the change believe it will and NASCAR will get it's head back in the game.

The pundits say that it adds excitement ... I say that when the tornado sirens go off and I head for shelter I get excited. When I hit a patch of black ice when driving and the car starts to spin I get excited. When all of the systems at work seem to shut down at the same time I get excited ... and so does my boss, the VP and the CEO. Excitement is not always a good thing.


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## jimmie57

I like the new format. It keeps the winner undisclosed until the last race is over.

In the past there could be a winner before the last race is run.

James, you are very correct that a non winner could be the Chase Champion.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> In the past there could be a winner before the last race is run.


That is the reason why the chase was started 10 years ago ... no big climatic race. And while the chase did not guarantee that a champion would not be known the race before the final it made it unlikely. The recent changes seem to be an overreaction to the "must finish 22nd or better" championship wins. (if only the past two years were more like 2011's win race to win championship.)

The change seems designed to appease the uneducated fans and non-fans of NASCAR who don't know or want to know how a body of work over 10 to 36 races ends up with a champion ... while telling long term fans that the sport they have loved for years is broken and needs to be more like other sports, which we assume are not broken. Perhaps NASCAR really isn't a sport. It is just a wanna be?

I believe a better solution would be to educate the fans ... put more emphasis in the media on the body of work - a 10 race playoff not a single race. If people were confused by the outcome of the final race not making a lot of difference in the championship perhaps they need to be reminded how important "game 7" is when one team wins the first four games of the series. It is so important that NBA and MLB don't even bother to play it. The NBA and MLB allow a champion to be chosen based on the best performance in a series ... why can't NASCAR? Or do they think their fans are too stupid to understand?

Yeah, I liked NASCAR (past tense). At the moment I tolerate NASCAR. There are races I'll probably not watch this year because of the rule change. By the end of the year I'll know if it is worth watching at all in 2015.


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## 4HiMarks

I see it as a return to the sport's roots, where you had a series of qualifying heats to decide who advances to the next round, as is also done in the Olympics for many types of races.

What does it matter that someone who didn't win a race all year could win the championship? That could have happened under the previous format, too. I think the new format makes it less likely.


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## James Long

4HiMarks said:


> What does it matter that someone who didn't win a race all year could win the championship? That could have happened under the previous format, too. I think the new format makes it less likely.


I disagree ... I believe it is more likely that there will be an "upset" - a driver with less wins or perhaps even winless will get the championship.

Here's the math ...
In the days before the chase NASCAR assigned points for winning and finishing well and awarded the championship to the driver with the most points. But it was too easy for drivers to win a championship before the last race. So they created the chase - a system that eliminated most drivers but increased the opportunity for the 10th place driver to win a championship.

These latest changes level the playing field each round. 12 drivers EQUAL at 3000 points regardless of if they have a win or not (no seeding with 3 extra points for each win. 8 drivers EQUAL at 4000 points just three races later ... and it is guaranteed that at least five of the drivers did not win one of those three races. 4 drivers EQUAL at 5000 points for the finale. The leveling of the playing field every three races throws away the season up to that point and puts the winless or drivers with less wins all on the same footing.

Yes, mathematically one could always win a championship without a win. Matt Kenseth nearly did it. Mathematically one could have the best average finish in the history of NASCAR and still lose the championship. Ask Carl Edwards. If you want a system that heavily rewards drivers for their performance at one track NASCAR is your game.


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## 4HiMarks

You have to consider that in previous seasons, at least one driver with a "regular season" win has been locked out of the Chase. I believe that one year, Kasey Kahne even had the most wins, but also had a bunch of DNFs, so he missed out. The next year they changed the format so he would have made it. Now, every driver with a win is almost guaranteed to be in the Chase. More drivers with wins eligible = greater chance winner will be someone who has a win.

Your math is only considering wins after the Chase has started. The new system heavily rewards drivers with a "checkers or wreckers" attitude, as opposed to playing it safe and just going for a leisurely Sunday drive.


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## jimmie57

We will have a better feel for the new format after this first season of it is over.


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## James Long

4HiMarks said:


> You have to consider that in previous seasons, at least one driver with a "regular season" win has been locked out of the Chase. I believe that one year, Kasey Kahne even had the most wins, but also had a bunch of DNFs, so he missed out. The next year they changed the format so he would have made it. Now, every driver with a win is almost guaranteed to be in the Chase. More drivers with wins eligible = greater chance winner will be someone who has a win.


I don't mind opening the chase to all winners ... it is the eliminations (especially the one race with no credit for previous races) that I am firmly against.



4HiMarks said:


> Your math is only considering wins after the Chase has started. The new system heavily rewards drivers with a "checkers or wreckers" attitude, as opposed to playing it safe and just going for a leisurely Sunday drive.


That is NASCAR's math starting this year. As teams make the next round only getting into that round matters. Win in one round and you make the next. But once the team is in the top 12 all previous scoring is tossed. If they reach the top 8 all previous scoring is tossed. If they reach the top 4 all 35 races worth of previous scoring is tossed.

Which is why a no win driver can win the chase ... despite other drivers having six or seven wins. All they have to do is make it to the last round.

I also take issue with the claim that drivers are not giving 100%. NASCAR is insulting their drivers. While there are times where *a* driver did not have to give 100% to advance - and may have held back - there was a 100% rule in place. If NASCAR felt that Jimmie Johnson was not giving 100% and could have finished higher than 9th last year at Homestead they should have fined him $s and points. Dale Jr outdrove Jimmie Johnson and in a one race winner takes all he would have won the championship: without a race win. That is the reality of NASCAR's new rules.


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## jimmie57

How many times have you heard a driver or crew chief say "looking at the bigger picture". To me that says they did not try as hard as they could because they wanted the higher points and not take the risk of a crash and some points. I am looking forward to the season starting.

Today they laid out in black and white about punishments and what each type would cost. I like that also.


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## James Long

I've heard a lot of interviews where a driver said they took a tenth place car and finished in the top five ... or a fifth place car gets second or wins. There has been "we had a fifth place car before ..." the accident or engine failure or whatever went wrong. A lot of emphasis on "we did the best we could" or "we did better than we expected".

The "good points day" seemed to be the silver lining with some drivers embracing the reality that yes, it was good to finish where they did - but a lot of eye rolls. Kyle Busch's temper tantrums for finishing second were both praised for his desire to win every time and reviled for poor sportsmanship. But I felt more drivers wanted to express themselves like Kyle ... ticked that they came in second ... but didn't want to be the cry baby on TV.

As needed as they are to pay for the sports, the sponsors get in the way of NASCAR's acceptability. As annoying as the "good points day" interviews (with or without the eyeroll) the everlasting joke of NASCAR is the product placement ... gotta take a sip of Coke on camera and spew every sponsor one can remember before saying "we ran well".

Yes, there are product placements in other sports - normally sportswear on the athletes and stadium/bowl game naming rights. But the practically traditional "going to Disneyworld!" comment is about the most you'll get out of an athlete at the event (although Payton Manning did a good job of promoting Omaha).

I gotta stop thinking about how broken NASCAR is ...


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## kikkenit2

I told you they would change the rules so Earnhardt Jr would win. lol Way to go Dale. Enough of second place.
I recorded 5 hours extra and still didn't catch the end of the race. And the stands looked packed late at night even.
Replay friday evening fox sports 1.


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## jimmie57

The one new rule from last night is that Dale Jr is now in the Chase for the championship already.
Coming up this weekend we will get to see how the new qualifying rules play out.

Dale Jr is always strong at that track and I think the earned the race last night with the speed in the car and the driver knowing how to drive this type of track.


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## James Long

kikkenit2 said:


> I told you they would change the rules so Earnhardt Jr would win.


Don't tell Dave Moody or he will shout you off of his radio show ... but Dale would have won the championship last year without winning a race. At least this year he has a race win - and at the best track to win.

And he did something his daddy never did. He won the Daytona 500 twice.


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## kikkenit2

I would quote my statement in post #3, but this website doesn't even work right with internet explorer 11. Amazing.
Lucky for me I don't even know who Dave Moody is. I remember Dale Earnhardt was the dirtiest driver around and
had to ram cars out of the way on the last lap to win over and over again. Eventually he learned how to win fairly or
something so he became the #1 driver. Maybe he didn't win the Daytona 500 much, but he won a bunch of championships.

His son was popular just because he was his son. And maintains that popularity while hardly ever winning. I don't see
that happening in any other sport, racing or not. In 2004 his car had 10% more power than anybody else and he pulled
away from the pack no sweat. Many accused nascar of letting him cheat to win. He hadn't won for 55 straight races, but
always come close at Daytona. About time Jimmie Johnson let him win this race. I still want to watch the finish. Now, lets
see if the most popular driver by far can win somewhere else. If not, he is the richest steady loser ever.

And for any league or race series to crown their champion without winning even one race isn't something to be proud of.
Tell Dave M. that would be embarrassing. I hope he wins more than one race this year. For nascar and the fans sake.


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## kikkenit2

So Dave Moody is the Sirius radio nascar guy? If he didn't support Jr he would be run out of town. Didn't they make a new rule about pushing and someone got penalized early in the race for doing just that? 88 teammate Jeff Gordon admitted pushing Jr on the last restart and both of his teammates (legally) blocked the field and had 3 of the top 5 engines in the field? I can't wait to see the end of this race. Maybe they did cheat a little to win. And a big chunk of tape accidentally stuck on his grill helped the car go faster? Amazing sport.


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## James Long

If NASCAR were rigged Jr would be winning a lot more races. Haters always hate ... and yes, Jr gets some sympathy for losing his dad but he is a good driver. Perhaps not the greatest driver but better than most.

If you want a sport where the most popular team wins every time perhaps in your sport they shouldn't compete, they should take a vote before each matchup and the vote winner wins the match. What legitimate sport does that? Sports are filled with upsets ... even the most popular teams don't win every event.

Name a sport that only has 36 competitions per year like Sprint Cup Racing. The best drivers win six or seven races per year (on a good year). It is easy to rack up wins in the big stick and ball sports where one team only has to beat one team each time they play. Not one team trying to beat 42 other competitors each weekend.

Golf is the only other sport I can think of where one competes against many and determines one winner. Nearly every other sport is match play with half the people or teams playing ending up with a win.


Pushing was outlawed in the Nationwide series and truck series ... trying to avoid the "two car tandem" where cars could lock bumper to bumper and jump ahead of the competition. Pushing was reduced in the cup series by redesigning the cars so they don't push well - or they overheat if the cars lock together for too long.


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## kikkenit2

I would quote a little, but quote doesn't work... I don't hate nascar. I certainly don't like it near as much as you. Plenty of other racing/sports to like.
Especially on directv. And I like Jr. a lot. I am just amazed that someone that hardly ever wins is the fan favorite about 8 years straight. Any sport where the same person/team wins all the time is terrible. It becomes boring. Luckily that almost never happens. Most sports have less than 36 competitors? There are lots of sports (like ski racing) that have a long list of competitors. You see only the few best on tv to save time and keep it exciting.

I would like to see Jr win a lot more (fan favorite or not). Especially the season championship. I am sick and tired of Jimmie Johnson winning so many. I think it would help nascar ratings/popularity a lot if Jr went on a roll. And no I don't want any cheating for that to happen. Early in the Daytona 500 I thought they black flagged a driver for pushing. No? I can't really comment on what happened because I didn't see much of the race. Nobody can control the weather. I'll watch the replay next saturday.


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## jimmie57

kikkenit2 said:


> So Dave Moody is the Sirius radio nascar guy? If he didn't support Jr he would be run out of town. Didn't they make a new rule about pushing and someone got penalized early in the race for doing just that? 88 teammate Jeff Gordon admitted pushing Jr on the last restart and both of his teammates (legally) blocked the field and had 3 of the top 5 engines in the field? I can't wait to see the end of this race. Maybe they did cheat a little to win. And a big chunk of tape accidentally stuck on his grill helped the car go faster? Amazing sport.


Yes, there was a car penalized in the Nationwide race for pushing. He was on the guy's back bumper too long according to the officials. You can push, but ever so slightly for a short time. It is a subjective call.
I watched the race and the bearer bond tape was on the track during the yellow flag and Jr ran right over it. Not really because the splitters are always down now and technically touching the track ( new rule ). It , the splitter, picked up the tape and it stuck to the front. He and others at first thought it was a big black trash bag. He moved up within inches of the pace car several times in an attempt to get it off but because it was tape it was stuck and would not move.
Blocking is part of racing. Blocking does cause a lot of wrecks.


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## jimmie57

kikkenit2 said:


> I would quote a little, but quote doesn't work... I don't hate nascar. I certainly don't like it near as much as you. Plenty of other racing/sports to like.
> Especially on directv. And I like Jr. a lot. I am just amazed that someone that hardly ever wins is the fan favorite about 8 years straight. Any sport where the same person/team wins all the time is terrible. It becomes boring. Luckily that almost never happens. Most sports have less than 36 competitors? There are lots of sports (like ski racing) that have a long list of competitors. You see only the few best on tv to save time and keep it exciting.
> 
> I would like to see Jr win a lot more (fan favorite or not). Especially the season championship. I am sick and tired of Jimmie Johnson winning so many. I think it would help nascar ratings/popularity a lot if Jr went on a roll. And no I don't want any cheating for that to happen. Early in the Daytona 500 I thought they black flagged a driver for pushing. No? I can't really comment on what happened because I didn't see much of the race. Nobody can control the weather. I'll watch the replay next saturday.


If you are using IE11 the quote and spell check does not work. I uninstalled that update on my 2 computers and it took me back to IE10 with everything in tact, shortcuts, etc. Spellcheck and Quotes works once again.

You can also use Fire Fox and it will work also.


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## kikkenit2

Jimmie thanks for that explanation. I was beginning to think I was banned from quoting. I wish they would fix this site.

I padded that race 5 hours long and still missed the last 35 laps. Missed all the excitement of not knowing who won.
Dale Jr winning is a huge thing. Opened up my sports page today and top of first page is a reprint from Orlando
Sentinal newspaper. Correction. The article says he is fan favorite 11 years running. And the article reflects exactly
my opinion. Amazing he has held that popularity while winning 3 of last 215 races. Written by George Diaz.

I am glad they eliminated all that pushing. I called it the towtruck 500 here a few years ago and my post got erased
after a few weeks. I don't blame you James. It really was ridiculous to watch. Did cause some good pileups though.
I looked up some records last night. Senior 7 championships. Jr zero. Hopefully he wins some more races.

Now sober up and fix this website.


----------



## James Long

kikkenit2 said:


> Any sport where the same person/team wins all the time is terrible. It becomes boring. Luckily that almost never happens.


The big stick and ball sports ... even the worst teams win. The worst team in professional football last year won two of their 16 games. Winning 12.5% of the games they played ... and that's the worst team in 2013? The worst team in professional baseball last year won 51 games - 31.5% of 162 games. The worst team in professional basketball had 11 wins - 19.6% of 56 games.



kikkenit2 said:


> Most sports have less than 36 competitors?


Reading is important ... less than 36 COMPETIT*IONS*. Professional football has less (16 in the regular season vs 26 in the pre-chase cup season). But the biggest difference is match play. Half of the participants win ... fans of even the worst teams can get several wins nearly every year. In NASCAR Cup races only 43 teams get to compete and there is only one winner.

Perhaps people who expect a lot of wins spread around all competitors are too stuck on stick and ball sports scoring.



kikkenit2 said:


> Jimmie thanks for that explanation. I was beginning to think I was banned from quoting. I wish they would fix this site.


Fix your browser ... my workplace considers IE 11 "not ready for prime time". It has not been deployed to most users (too many important sites that can't use it) and the few people with IE 11 have to deal with the glitches and run in compatibility mode where possible. IE 11 is broken.


----------



## kikkenit2

Help! I tried to roll back to IE10 and I lost Internet Explorer completely. After an hour of screwing
around I was able to use google chrome to get 11 back in. It works fine everywhere except here.
I don't want to restore my entire operating system. I just did that 2 months ago and ended up with 11.
Now what? When I try to reinstall 10 my computer says it is already installed, yet control panel never finds it.


----------



## jimmie57

kikkenit2 said:


> Help! I tried to roll back to IE10 and I lost Internet Explorer completely. After an hour of screwing
> around I was able to use google chrome to get 11 back in. It works fine everywhere except here.
> I don't want to restore my entire operating system. I just did that 2 months ago and ended up with 11.
> Now what? When I try to reinstall 10 my computer says it is already installed, yet control panel never finds it.


IE11 is IE10 with some add on modifications.

Go to Control Panel, Find Programs and Features,
Then click on View Installed updates and give it a couple of minutes to find them all,
Find the Windows Internet Explorer 11 Update ,
Click on it and Uninstall it.
IE10 will come back automatically.


----------



## kikkenit2

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Nothing comes up
under Microsoft or windows. I'll just live with it for now. No
way I am going to restore whole computer just to quote here.


----------



## jimmie57

kikkenit2 said:


> Thank you for the detailed explanation. Nothing comes up
> under Microsoft or windows. I'll just live with it for now. No
> way I am going to restore whole computer just to quote here.


Sounds like you missed the step to click on "View installed updates" ??
If not I do not know what else to tell you.


----------



## kikkenit2

jimmie57 said:


> Sounds like you missed the step to click on "View installed updates" ??
> If not I do not know what else to tell you.


That was it. I have uninstalled lots of programs, but never been in that area. Always though of
internet explorer as a program. And used to tabs these days. I am a 10. IE10. lol

Last night I google searched over and over and couldn't find a how to remove IE11. Everything was
instructions for windows 8. Now that stuff is a nightmare. I have one sitting in a box until this breaks.

Go ahead and delete these posts that don't pertain to nascar.


----------



## jimmie57

Glad you got it fixed



kikkenit2 said:


> That was it. I have uninstalled lots of programs, but never been in that area. Always though of
> internet explorer as a program. And used to tabs these days. I am a 10. IE10. lol
> 
> Last night I google searched over and over and couldn't find a how to remove IE11. Everything was
> instructions for windows 8. Now that stuff is a nightmare. I have one sitting in a box until this breaks.
> 
> Go ahead and delete these posts that don't pertain to nascar.


Glad you got it fixed. It is a program but going from IE8 ? to 9, 10 and now 11 are updates.

Boo Hoo ! I just looked at the Phoenix weather forecast and it is 100% rain for Friday and 90% for Saturday. There goes the practice and possible Nationwide race.

Interesting: TWC on the web shows 20% for Friday and 90% for Saturday. Time will tell who gets it right I guess.


----------



## kikkenit2

I've been pretty good with windows for a long time, but never had to roll back IE or go to that update area before. Kind of embarrassed. Thanks for being persistent with me. About the only racing that rain improves is formula 1. Last year world superbike started a race in a heavy downpour and I watched a racer die live on bein sports. Today there was a nascar article about how the end of last weeks race was so intense because everybody wanted to be leading when the rain came back. There had to be a lot of people like me that missed the end, because it lasted so long. 37 lead changes after the rain delay is exciting to watch.

I'm going to record the replay tomorrow night and watch the whole thing over again. It really was a big deal that junior won. He was on a pretty dry stretch. When he wins it has to help nascar tv ratings for a while. I live on the west coast and it rained here today. We need it so bad. I just hope it doesn't stretch this race out 10 hours.


----------



## James Long

Knock out qualifying ... less than exciting. 

We were promised a boys have at it battle to get the fastest lap with possible blocking by other drivers. We got a parade. The drivers handled the challenge well, splitting qualifying into their own sessions and practically taking turns pulling their fastest lap.

I believe the biggest mistake in the minds of those expecting qualifying to be as exciting as an actual race was forgetting that it was the fastest lap that gets the pole. Not the first car over the finish line but the fastest lap sometime during the session. This allows the cars to space themselves out and still get a faster lap than the car in front of them without passing or a race to the finish line.

The only benefit was that qualifying was boring for an hour instead of two. There was still a lot of single cars with no one near them on the track. Not exciting.


----------



## jimmie57

I like the qualifying. The old way if a car has a hiccup they are dead meat. If they run one good lap they are ahead. This way they all get to tray a second and third time to get a fast time, not just one lap.
I don't like that they let them tape them up and get hot. I want them to qualify in "race trim period", the same as they are going to race.


----------



## James Long

Today's race winner was knocked out in qualifying.


----------



## jimmie57

The pole sitter or the people that qualify up front do not always win. Lots of things happen in a race.


----------



## James Long

Which makes qualifying even less important (other than those at the bottom who need to make the race).

When NASCAR announced the change in qualifying everyone called it "exciting". It was less than exciting to me.


----------



## jimmie57

The changes in the cars, ride height and spoiler height seems to have worked. There was lots of passing during the racing in the 2 races we have seen so far.


----------



## kikkenit2

How about Junior? 3 wins this year!

Tony Stewart is in a heap of trouble. He clearly swerved into another sprint car driver and killed him.
That is what you get for getting out of your car? Unbelievable. Looked like manslaughter to me.


----------



## jimmie57

kikkenit2 said:


> How about Junior? 3 wins this year!
> 
> Tony Stewart is in a heap of trouble. He clearly swerved into another sprint car driver and killed him.
> That is what you get for getting out of your car? Unbelievable. Looked like manslaughter to me.


I watched it several times on video and I do not believe Tony was at fault. The driver was in a dim light place, dressed in black and ran out on the track to confront Tony. The car in front of Tony saw the man and swerved to miss him but Tony was too close to swerve far enough. Those right rear tires stick out from the cars a long way in the sprint cars.

I was in a wreck once where the car beside me ( blocking my view of a parking lot next to the road ) slammed on brakes because a car was coming out. I could not see them until their car contacted the side of my Ranger PU and turned me over.


----------



## jimmie57

I am liking the changes they have made to the cars and rules this year.


----------



## James Long

NASCAR has fixed most of the problems I had earlier in the year (qualifying now allows engine coolers so they can get the slow cars off the track and out of the way of fast cars - avoiding exciting crashes).

I like AJ so getting him a chase berth for winning one race isn't a bad thing. (There will be a few also rans in the chase.)

Tony is still chase eligible (he attempted to qualify) - assuming he wins a race since he can't get in on points alone. Not his biggest problem right now. But the chase problem facing NASCAR is people are still confused about the rules.

As far as the video I have seen of the incident (via ESPN and then YouTube) ... knowing that Ward would be hit at some point I thought he was hit by the 45 car as he was standing close to the moving cars. That video did not show Stewart's car for long enough to support the claims that Stewart swerved or gassed the vehicle or did anything out of the ordinary. Hopefully another angle from a closer fan or Stewart's on board camera (if he had one) will help clear up the confusion.

Sprint car racing is dangerous ... professional drivers should seek ways of getting out of sprint cars. When they make the big time of trucks, grand national or cup they should put their dangerous past behind them. I do not believe that Stewart did anything wrong but participate at a level he has outgrown. This is not the kind of attention Stewart, Stewart-Haas or anyone connected to the organization needs. Stewart needs to grow up and be a responsible driver. Not a barnstormer.


----------



## jimmie57

It was very good to see AJ win yesterday. That was quite a race for sure.

I keep track of what Danica is doing and she started the weekend very badly with the engine change and then the crash from the blown left front tire in practice.
However, Sunday she started last in the race and in 10 laps she was up to 29th. This was from driving, no wrecks, etc. helped her get there.
At one point she was up to 12th. I am sure pit stop strategy had something to do with that.
She did a very good job to avoid crashing into those in front of her in that terrible wreck that red flagged the race.
Finished the day in 21st. I would have thought she had a good day with a 30th place finish from the way the weekend started for her.


----------



## djlong

kikkenit: I don't think you've seen much dirt-track racing. There was no "swerving" to hit anyone. What I saw - and I went through it in slow-motion as best I could - was that Stewart tried to avoid the kid - turning left and that means the rear of the car is at risk to "get loose" and go to the right. The 45 car barely missed the kid and then he walked further down the track into the lane where the cars were driving. If you see how Stewart's car is positioned after the jiggling fottage that happens right as the collision occurs, you can see his car is pointed to the left - clearly trying to avoid the kid in a black firesuit on a dimly lit track at night.

It pains me to say this because of the tragic results, but this 20 year old kid wouldn't be the first kid who thought he was invincible and that it "couldn't happen to me".


----------



## James Long

Hmmm ... I wonder if NASCAR will ask broadcasters to stop showing clips of people getting out of their cars after on track incidents and putting themselves in harm's way? I doubt if I'll hear the NASCAR radio commercial using Tony Stewart's helmet throw ("this is a helmet") but some of the clips shown this week of NASCAR drivers were pretty bad. Not just throwing things and gesturing from a distance - but running out into traffic.

There are several incidents over the past couple of years that would have been "against the rules" if the "stay in your car" rule had been more than a pre-race suggestion. Incidents guaranteed to make the highlight reel.

I find it ironic that the events that NASCAR uses the most to promote racing are the ones that they write rules to prevent. From "the fight" during the first live race (which is still used for promotion) to tweeting from a cellphone carried in the car ... NASCAR likes the "boys have at it" and media (including social media) attention but then moves to tone it down. Too much of a good thing?

I believe the new rule is too strict ... although the concept of another car hitting a stopped car is not impossible (Montoya losing control and hitting the jet dryer is a good example of how cautions are not 100% safe times). Telling a driver that they cannot unbuckle and prepare to get out of the car seems "too far". And the "crew members cannot approach the racing surface or apron" ... I trust that NASCAR will enforce that with common sense but theoretically anyone who moves toward the track is approaching the apron. And approaching moving vehicles is a major part of something that happens under nearly every caution flag: pit stops. There are parts of the rule that will never be enforced 100% ... and instead of writing a rule NASCAR ignores they should write rules to follow.


----------



## jimmie57

Wow ! Almost the whole field ran over 200 mph in qualifying. Holey Moley that is fast !
Even the Trucks are running 185 or more.


----------



## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> Even the Trucks are running 185 or more.


When they are running ... the second round of qualifying only used the last 60 seconds of the 10 minute session and the final round of qualifying saw only ONE truck post a qualifying time - winning the pole at 173.152 mph. The gamesmanship of deciding when to attempt a lap prevented 11 trucks from posting a time in the final session!

NASCAR is working on decreasing speeds next season ... gotta balance the excitement with having safe races. NASCAR has not killed anyone at a race in a while and needs to keep extending that "number of races without a fatality".


----------



## jimmie57

James Long said:


> When they are running ... the second round of qualifying only used the last 60 seconds of the 10 minute session and the final round of qualifying saw only ONE truck post a qualifying time - winning the pole at 173.152 mph. The gamesmanship of deciding when to attempt a lap prevented 11 trucks from posting a time in the final session!
> 
> NASCAR is working on decreasing speeds next season ... gotta balance the excitement with having safe races. NASCAR has not killed anyone at a race in a while and needs to keep extending that "number of races without a fatality".


I saw that qualifying.
They outsmarted themselves for sure. I don't think they will do that again and I'll bet that the Cup drivers saw that also.


----------



## James Long

I was hoping that NASCAR would defer their decision whether to excuse Tony's absence from the Sprint Cup until it mattered ... but at the end of the day it is better that the decision is made before the win (if there is one) and before it potentially becomes a personal decision between Tony and whomever gets the 16th position on points.

It opens up the precedent that excused "reasons for not racing" can go beyond physical issues. Tony is the first driver to ask for a waiver and the only one to receive one - and he received it at a time when the waiver is moot. He MUST win.

The "must participate" rule seems unneeded anyways. It was written to avoid having a driver win one race and sit out the rest of the season until Chicago ... but the "must be in the top 30 in points" should guarantee enough participation to keep part-time drivers active. Tony is 26th after missing three races. Technically he could of run one scored qualifying lap then gone home each race and met the minimum. Teams and sponsors also keep the drivers in the car ... regardless of how bad the season is going, drivers are obligated to drive and represent their sponsors.

Currently 33 of the top 36 drivers have started all 24 races, with the exception of 20th place (and race winner) Denny Hamlin (who qualified his car for the one race he missed), 35th place Josh Wise (who attempted to qualify at Phoenix) and 26th place Tony Stewart. "Top 30 in points" should be enough to encourage participation ... and if it isn't perhaps they should go for top 25 in points (plus a win).

The concept (or fear) that Tony might actually win Atlanta or Richmond and bump a winless points driver out of the 16th position led one reporter to question whether the chase should be 17 drivers if Tony is allowed to participate. The groan of other reporters in the room answered the question as well as Helton could. No driver has ever won a cup level championship unless they were in 10th place or above with 10 races to go. Right now there are 12 winners (ranked 1 through 24 in points) plus 5th, 9th, 10th and 11th in points. I'll be surprised if all of the top 10 drivers in points do not end up being in the chase.

The reality is that if a driver and team has not figured out how to win so far this year or at least finish well enough to be in the top points position they probably will not do much better in the elimination rounds of the chase. It would take another miracle finish for Tony or any other driver to enter the chase in the last four positions and somehow become better than the rest of the field for the last ten races. Possible ... but unlikely.

Glad to see Tony back ... and that story will dominate this weekend and perhaps next if he wins Richmond. But the best thing I see about Tony being back is now people will stop asking when he will return.


----------



## James Long

"Tony Stewart will not face criminal charges in the death of sprint-car driver Kevin Ward Jr. as a grand jury decided that there was not enough evidence to support any negligence by the three-time Cup champion."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nascar/story/2014-09-24/tony-stewart-cleared-grand-jury-no-charges-kevin-ward-death-investigation-accident

Tony Stewart:
"This has been the toughest and most emotional experience of my life, and it will stay with me forever," Stewart said in the statement. "I'm very grateful for all the support I've received and continue to receive.
"I respect everything the District Attorney and Sheriff's Office did to thoroughly investigate this tragic accident. While the process was long and emotionally difficult, it allowed for all the facts of the accident to be identified and known.
"While much of the attention has been on me, it's important to remember a young man lost his life. Kevin Ward Jr.'s family and friends will always be in my thoughts and prayers."

The Ward Family:
"Our son got out of his car during caution while the race was suspended," the statement said. "All the other vehicles were reducing speed and not accelerating except for Stewart who intentionally tried to intimidate Kevin by accelerating and sliding his car towards him causing this tragedy.
"The focus should be on Mr. Stewart and not my son. This matter is not at rest and we will pursue all remedies in fairness to Kevin."

NASCAR:
"There are no winners in tragedy. Our thoughts and prayers remain with the Kevin Ward Jr. family and Tony Stewart as they all cope with this tragic incident at Canandaigua Motorsports Park. This has been a difficult time for everyone involved and we have respected the local authorities responsible for reviewing this case."

While criminal charges will not be filed, the Ward family may (and based on the statement above probably will) file a civil suit for damages. In response to a question at today's press conference, the District Attorney revealed that Kevin Ward tested positive for marijuana use at a level high enough to cause impairment.

In other news ... after a sleeper of a race in Richmond (no changes in who made it in to the chase and who was out and no on track incidents or drama) the first two chase races have been won by different drivers. The field is close enough that any of the other drivers could make it in on points if higher drivers have a bad day. It should be interesting this weekend at Dover where the first four "chase" drivers are eliminated.

Then Brad with his five wins and (at this point) at least one winless driver will enter the "Contender Round" tied at 3000 points each - no advantage to having five wins. Twelve drivers advancing tied up at 3000 points.

It is almost like NASCAR is starting a seven race chase with all remaining drivers tied for first - no seeding. They will have three races to mix it up and then the "Eliminator Round" begins with the top eight remaining drivers - all tied at 4000 points entering the eliminator. (The four drivers eliminated at Talladega will be reduced back to the 2000+ points level, battling for fifth place with the rest of the chasers.)

The hype machine is working overtime ... after Richmond's over hyped ho-hum race the machine is still working promising Dover will be exciting. At least with 14 drivers racing for 10 spots there is no easy way to pick who will be out.


----------



## jimmie57

James,
I have to respectfully wholeheartedly disagree with you on this one.
The racing is intense and very good this year.
I love the knock out qualifying and the new chase format. The one thing that I thought from day one after hearing how the chase would work is that a high points winner could possibly win the chase and never win a race, not even in the chase.

I do agree with the previous post as "Glad to see Tony back". He is a tough guy and will get in your face for doing something that he has admitted to doing many times but I could never see him running his car at a man out of his car.

After hearing the new changes for next year I feel they might be harder on Danica than most any driver out there. I am a Danica fan but I think she has more trouble with a car that is sliding a little bit more than the rest of the drivers that probably had some dirt track experience.
Only time will tell.


----------



## James Long

Richmond was bad ... the rest have been better.

I heard on the radio this week that "Dover is the new Richmond" ... which reflects the thought I had in my last post in this thread. Today we are down to 12 Contenders ... which is what we had in previous years. Add in the element that all 12 are tied for first in points and it should be interesting to see who can be the best out of three races.

The official standings list has Jeff Gordon in fifth place (seeded). I have no clue why. If they are looking at the whole season Jeff should be in the top three (four wins tied with Logano). If they are looking only at the Challenger round Jeff should be in the top three (one win in this round). It is irrelevant once next week's race is run, but does anyone know why Nascar put Gordon seeded fifth?

I went to The Sporting News website to see if they had an explainer yet, but their top Nascar headline is Kevin Ward. 

I wonder if an accident recreation showing what happens to a winged sprint car when it hits a person (using a crash test dummy of appropriate weight as a stand in) would help demonstrate to the Ward family that the car would have been pulled to the right by hitting any substantial object on the track? We are still getting the claims of "turned right and accelerated" despite the grand jury investigation.


----------



## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Richmond was bad ... the rest have been better.
> 
> I heard on the radio this week that "Dover is the new Richmond" ... which reflects the thought I had in my last post in this thread. Today we are down to 12 Contenders ... which is what we had in previous years. Add in the element that all 12 are tied for first in points and it should be interesting to see who can be the best out of three races.
> 
> The official standings list has Jeff Gordon in fifth place (seeded). I have no clue why. If they are looking at the whole season Jeff should be in the top three (four wins tied with Logano). If they are looking only at the Challenger round Jeff should be in the top three (one win in this round). It is irrelevant once next week's race is run, but does anyone know why Nascar put Gordon seeded fifth?
> 
> I went to The Sporting News website to see if they had an explainer yet, but their top Nascar headline is Kevin Ward.
> 
> I wonder if an accident recreation showing what happens to a winged sprint car when it hits a person (using a crash test dummy of appropriate weight as a stand in) would help demonstrate to the Ward family that the car would have been pulled to the right by hitting any substantial object on the track? We are still getting the claims of "turned right and accelerated" despite the grand jury investigation.


I think the seeding is just a consensus of who all the analysts, etc. feel like will win the last race.

I would think that a driver that wins one of the races in a segment would get at least one point to carry over to the next segment. Maybe they will do that next year.


----------



## jimmie57

James,
you might like this site. It has all kinds of stuff that other sites do not have. This is a list of the top 25 drivers and where they would be on the old points system and Jeff is number 1 on it.
http://www.jayski.com/news/pages/story/_/page/NASCAR-Sprint-Cup-Chase-2014#classic


----------



## James Long

First of all ... while watching Kansas I was wondering if they were at Talledega - wrecks galore. A lot of chase drivers left in positions where Charlotte is do or die before next week's lottery.

I would like to thank Baylor for scoring ... perhaps now ABC can show the Charlotte race (not present on any alternate channel).

I heard on the radio that ESPN brought down all the big guns from Bristol CT to Charlotte and they were taking turns riding around the track in Richard Petty Driving Experience cars ... a strange idea for a network that will be airing its last NASCAR race in five weeks.

Considering they think it is OK to join Charlotte in progress on lap 27 I suppose I should be happy that ESPN will not be carrying races for the foreseeable future.


----------



## jimmie57

The Charlotte race was a good one. Lots of passing. My driver, Danica, was doing really well until Joey ran into her and she hit the wall. She went down hill after that. When he hit her she was in 11th place.

Even more action on and off the track after the race was over. Tempers were flaring for sure. There will be fines for that which occurred after the race had ended.


----------



## James Long

I cheered when I saw what Tony did. 

And when Brad came out to give "his side" of the story I thought "dude, we have video tape".

Tuesday will be a day to watch indeed. I expect big $$$ coming from Brad. It looks like Denny got talked down from doing anything worse than a brake check before Brad went wild on everyone. Matt may get to make a donation for chasing down Brad and the scuffle that followed (hey ESPN, you actually were in the right place!). It was funny to watch Brad back up after hitting Tony. (No, you didn't push Matt into Tony ... you hit Tony in your uncontrolled rage against the world and Tony returned the hit.) I hope Tony does not get hit hard by NASCAR ... perhaps probation?

A points hit is possible ... but I'm not sure NASCAR will go that far unless there is additional video proof of all the claims against Brad (doing burnouts in the garage and knocking another team's transmission through another team's pit stall). If the fullness of Brad's rage can be proven I will be disappointed if it is only a $$$ penalty.


----------



## James Long

I've been doing some math -
In order for Brad Keselowski to advance, he would need to either win (the easy math) or finish high enough to get in on points.

Getting in on points is difficult (even without a penalty). The most Brad can score without a win is 44 points (finish 2nd leading the most laps). Kyle has that beat by starting the race, four other drivers can beat that finish by finishing 34th or worse. Kasey Kahne is the man to beat for Brad ... If Brad finishes 2nd leading the most laps Kasey can still beat Brad by finishing 18th.

If Matt, Jimmie or Jr win the race Brad will need to beat Denny Hamlin ... who only needs a 34th to bead Brad's best non winning effort. Any points penalty would just make it more of a win or go home race.

As for the other Contenders: Kyle needs a 24th, Ryan needs a 19th, Carl needs an 18th, Jeff needs a 16th and Denny needs a 15th regardless of what the bottom five do. Unless one of them has a bad day the bottom five are racing for one position. A win being the best chance of getting that position - which is exactly what NASCAR promised.


----------



## jimmie57

I would not be surprised if Brad was removed from the Chase for this year after all the stuff he did after the race was over.


----------



## TXD16

jimmie57 said:


> I would not be surprised if Brad was removed from the Chase for this year after all the stuff he did after the race was over.


Keselowski (only his friends refer to him as "Brad," and I'm definitely not an FoB) very obviously and, more importantly, intentionally put others' lives in jeopardy. He should definitely be made to sit out the rest of the season, if not longer, as the intensity of the new format appears to be somewhat more than that with which he is able to cope given his current level of (im)maturity.


----------



## jimmie57

TXD16 said:


> Keselowski (only his friends refer to him as "Brad," and I'm definitely not an FoB) very obviously and, more importantly, intentionally put others' lives in jeopardy. He should definitely be made to sit out the rest of the season, if not longer, as the intensity of the new format appears to be somewhat more than that with which he is able to cope given his current level of (im)maturity.


Brad is easier and quicker to spell.


----------



## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> Brad is easier and quicker to spell.


Exactly!


----------



## James Long

Light penalties ... $50K for Brad K, $25K for Tony. "Probation" for four races - five races left this year. Probation ends before Homestead.

Boys have at it.

I saw a video of Jeff Gordon watching Tony Stewart's reverse move on the TV in the press center. I had the same reaction. Probably the best $25K Tony ever spent ... his friends would probably chip in if he needed it - they should give matching gifts in support of his actions. Tony did what a lot of drivers wanted to do.

The only down side is it broke the "lie low" plan of staying out of the spotlight. Idiots on TV have new footage to "prove" that Tony is a "hothead". Cue the tabloid media.


----------



## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Light penalties ... $50K for Brad K, $25K for Tony. "Probation" for four races - five races left this year. Probation ends before Homestead.
> 
> Boys have at it.
> 
> I saw a video of Jeff Gordon watching Tony Stewart's reverse move on the TV in the press center. I had the same reaction. Probably the best $25K Tony ever spent ... his friends would probably chip in if he needed it - they should give matching gifts in support of his actions. Tony did what a lot of drivers wanted to do.
> 
> The only down side is it broke the "lie low" plan of staying out of the spotlight. Idiots on TV have new footage to "prove" that Tony is a "hothead". Cue the tabloid media.


Yep, that one guy on Nascar America on NBC sports talked more about Tony and actually sort of defended Bad Brad and what he did.
I believe his name is Frank Stoddard. I do not like him and his opinions.
Part of Tony's action might have been from the fact that Joey spun Danica into the wall. He definitely did it on purpose. You can hear him and his spotter on the in car radio talking about it.


----------



## jimmie57

Terry Labonte qualified in 9th today for the Talladega 500 Sunday.
He says this will be his last Sprint Cup race.


----------



## James Long

And Keselowski and Kenseth will start in the back and work their way up ... should be fun.

(At least this week the "unapproved modification" to Kenseth's car was more than a decal.)


----------



## jimmie57

James Long said:


> And Keselowski and Kenseth will start in the back and work their way up ... should be fun.
> 
> (At least this week the "unapproved modification" to Kenseth's car was more than a decal.)


Joey Logano is in 40th,
Jeff Gordon, Kyle Larson, Kyle Bush, Kevin Harvick, Denny Hamlin are all back there also.
Ricky did not qualify because Tony used a Past champions provision to get in. Unless Danica get wrecked out she will pass Ricky in points today.
I would be happy to see Brad and Joey put into the wall today very early in the race by anyone.


----------



## James Long

Not a good day for Hendrick Motorsports with three of the four eliminated drivers coming from their company. Kyle Busch from Joe Gibbs Racing rounds out the eliminated. The two guys with the most wins are still in the chase, Brad with (now) 6 and Joey with 5. Two guys with no wins (Ryan and Matt) also remain. But six time will have to wait until next year to become seven time and Steve Letarde will be leaving NASCAR without a championship.

With Junior (emotional favorite) and Jimmy (logical favorite) out of the chase does anyone have an unbroken Chase Grid? I am still at 6 out of 8 in the chase. (I got one wrong in the first round, eliminating Hamlin, and one wrong in this round, eliminating Newman.) I did not pick a final four but Joey and Brad are doing the right things to stay in the chase ... they are winning in each round.

There are still seven guys in the chase I'd rather see win than Keselowski.  I'd be happy seeing any of the other seven win. Kenseth and Gordon are old time favorites, champions from more than a decade ago. Edwards is a lame duck (Aflac!) who could win his first championship. Newman is a local boy doing well (actually seeded 3rd). Hamlin, Harvick and Logano all have a good story to tell.

Next week is Richmond.


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## jimmie57

Wow, that was some race yesterday. I don't ever remember that many cars passing each other through out the day. 

Disappointed to see Bad Brad get the win but he did work really hard for it.

Too bad that caution came out before the pit stops were completed there at the last. I would have liked to see where Danica could have held on to finish if it had stayed green until the end. Then again, it is Talladega and the wrecks always happen at the end of the race.


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## 4HiMarks

It really surprised me that it took this long for the race winner to not be one of the Chase drivers. So now at least two will be eligible for the championship with no wins in the last segment. I have to admit the racing has been intense. I imagine NASCAR will continue to tweak the format a bit, here and there, but overall, I think they have a winner. It's a lot more like playoffs in other sports, other than that those who have been eliminated still get to compete, but are not eligible for a championship. Just like getting mathematically eliminated from the playoffs before the end of the season.


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## wxguy

What if they had a race and nobody showed up or watched on TV?

This chase format has about done that for us. Daughter is giving away her tickets to TX--so far, no takers. Wife doesn't like Stewart not being in the chase but mostly dislikes that Brad is. An now my guy Harvick got wiped out by another Chase driver. Chance he could win his way in? Maybe, but his chances are not in his hands. A Start And Park driver could crash into him and that's it. 

I don't see tv rating sky rocketing, and judging by the empty seats at M'ville, lots are not showing up. Obviously, this format isn't doing the job. I don't have a solution, but I'm not making big bucks dreaming up this stuff. They have been trying to redefine the championship for years to stimulate interest but it isn't working. Most corporations would fire the execs by now, but as long as a family controls the sport, it is going to be more of the same. Success at managing this business isn't controlled by genetics.


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## jimmie57

4HiMarks said:


> It really surprised me that it took this long for the race winner to not be one of the Chase drivers. So now at least two will be eligible for the championship with no wins in the last segment. I have to admit the racing has been intense. I imagine NASCAR will continue to tweak the format a bit, here and there, but overall, I think they have a winner. It's a lot more like playoffs in other sports, other than that those who have been eliminated still get to compete, but are not eligible for a championship. Just like getting mathematically eliminated from the playoffs before the end of the season.


I think that one of the dumbest things about the races is that they are on so many different channels. There are so many people out there that can not get all of them and miss the races. I think they should be on national broadcast channels or at the least on ESPN and stick to it.

I semi watched the race yesterday since I am visiting my 91 year old mother this week and she does not like the races and says they are going to get killed.

Danica had worked her way up to 10th when the wreck happened in front of her that tore up the right front and put her out of the race. I did not expect her to move up at this track, even tho she did last year at this same track.
Lots of people were wrecked out of the race.
Glad Dale got his first clock for the win. Jeff might just win it all.


----------



## James Long

wxguy said:


> What if they had a race and nobody showed up or watched on TV?


4.328 million watched Talladega on EPSN, 5.096 million watched Charlotte on ABC broadcast one week earlier. Not shabby.

Talladega was the 9th highest rated program on cable that week. People are watching.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> 4.328 million watched Talladega on EPSN, 5.096 million watched Charlotte on ABC broadcast one week earlier. Not shabby.
> 
> Talladega was the 9th highest rated program on cable that week. People are watching.


Yes, but even your numbers show more on ABC than ESPN. Lots of people do not have FS1 when they had it.


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## James Long

When the content is available people watch it. Next year it will be Fox and NBC, with FS1 and NBCSN on the cable side. While many will miss races because they are not on the "available in every package" 8000 pound gorilla ESPN, they are probably too young to remember when only major races were carried live if at all on television. Expansion to cable channels meant more race coverage.


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## 4HiMarks

I did not care at all for the TNT coverage. ESPN has fallen behind. I remember when all the major sports were all tied up in broadcast deals, racing was a major part of their programming. It was pretty much nothing but racing, Australian Rules football, bass fishing, and exercise shows. And Sportscenter.


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## James Long

Is this the "Eliminator" round or the "eliminated" round. 
Maybe Kahne can win next week?

Next Week:
Logano and Hamlin can make it in by finishing 11th or better.
Winless Ryan Newman can make it in by finishing 9th or better.

Everyone else is within six points of each other: Gordon one point ahead of Kenseth and Edwards, Keselowski five points out. Unhappy Harvick sitting in last place six points out. No one eliminated yet, even if none of the eight win next week. Phoenix should be fun.


Sunday night boxing has returned.


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## 4HiMarks

Tempers were sure flaring, but I think Gordon has nothing to complain about. It looked to me like exactly what Keslowski said. He left a hole, and Brad tried to drive through it. Jeff then moved down to try and block him, and they touched. So it was his own damn fault he cut a tire. What was he doing picking the outside lane anyway? And the brawl clearly started when Harvick pushed Keslowski from behind.


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## James Long

I've heard people compare NASCAR to WWE ... but this was more like a bar fight. The kind where a whole room of men are sitting peacefully until someone throws a punch and then everyone jumps in on the "fun". People end up fighting just because there is a fight ... those guys are throwing punches - why not me?

In previous fights crew members that got involved got fined. I suspect the same will follow this fight. (The caveat being Kenseth not being fined for his flying leap on Keslowski a few weeks ago. So I expect fines against identified crew members and/or crew chiefs for not controlling their crews - not against the drivers.) If I were writing the rules I would say let the drivers fight ... and let the crew members stop the fight. But crew members piling on offensively - doing more than standing between the drivers or holding their own driver back - just seems unfair.

Most drivers and many crew chiefs are built like quarterbacks ... or punters. While some may be athletic like Edwards or Johnson or bulky like Stewart or Newman, they are not the linemen with physiques designed to tackle and take down an opponent (or in NASCAR, move around tires, jacks and gas cans like they were nothing). Crew members giving a driver a beat down is an unfair matchup.


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## sigma1914

James Long said:


> Most drivers and many crew chiefs are built like quarterbacks ... or punters. While some may be athletic like Edwards or Johnson or bulky like Stewart or Newman, they are not the linemen with physiques designed to tackle and take down an opponent (or in NASCAR, move around tires, jacks and gas cans like they were nothing). Crew members giving a driver a beat down is an unfair matchup.


My friends boyfriend is on #24 pit crew (he was also featured on the show Undercover Boss when they did NASCAR) played football - he's a very big & fit dude, it wouldn't be fair. lol


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> In previous fights crew members that got involved got fined. I suspect the same will follow this fight. (The caveat being Kenseth not being fined for his flying leap on Keslowski a few weeks ago. So I expect fines against identified crew members and/or crew chiefs for not controlling their crews - not against the drivers.) If I were writing the rules I would say let the drivers fight ... and let the crew members stop the fight. But crew members piling on offensively - doing more than standing between the drivers or holding their own driver back - just seems unfair.


Kenseth never through a punch. A punch thrown seems to be where the line is crossed. A crew member of the 24 clearly landed a punch on Keso. Don't think Gordon did. I could see Harvick getting an instigator fine.

Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## James Long

The fines are out ...
Two fighters from the 24 team out $25K and six races (continues into next season).
One fighter from the 5 team also out $25K and six races (continues into next season).
Their crime was "fighting with a driver on pit road".
An additional crew member from the 24 team is out $10K and three races (through Daytona) for fighting with another crew member on pit road.

For not controlling their crews ... the crew chiefs of the 24 and 5 are fined $50k (each) and are both out on probation for six races. NBC is reporting that Hendrick will not be filing an appeal.

Official Release

"While the intensity and emotions are high as we continue through the final rounds of the Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup, the actions that we saw from several crew members Sunday following the race at Texas are unacceptable," said Robin Pemberton, NASCAR senior vice president/competition and racing development. "We reviewed the content that was available to us of the post-race incident along pit road, and identified several crew members who crossed the line with their actions, specifically punching others."

"We therefore have penalized four crew members as well as their crew chiefs, as they ultimately are responsible for members of their team per the NASCAR rulebook," Pemberton continued. "A NASCAR championship is at stake, but we can't allow behavior that crosses the line to go unchecked, particularly when it puts others in harm's way."

Team Members:
24 Mechanic: Dwayne Doucette
24 Engine Tuner: Jason Ingle
24 Hauler Driver: Dean Mozingo ($10K)
5 Rear Tire Changer: Jeremy Fuller


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## jimmie57

4HiMarks said:


> Tempers were sure flaring, but I think Gordon has nothing to complain about. It looked to me like exactly what Keslowski said. He left a hole, and Brad tried to drive through it. Jeff then moved down to try and block him, and they touched. So it was his own damn fault he cut a tire. What was he doing picking the outside lane anyway? And the brawl clearly started when Harvick pushed Keslowski from behind.


I do not like Brad but I agree that it looks to me like the 24 car caused the two of them to come together.


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## James Long

So it is Kenseth's fault when Brad does not leave a hole for Kenseth (and runs him into the wall) but Gordon's fault when Gordon does not leave a hole for Brad??? I suppose Brad should complain that Gordon didn't get out of his way - even though Brad certainly didn't get out of the way for Kenseth's faster car a few week's earlier.

Have you been imbibing Brad's sponsor's product? :goodjob:

I will be very surprised if someone doesn't find a reason to race Brad extremely hard next week - especially near the end of the race where there would be no recovery time to repair and get enough points to advance to Homestead. I would not want to see Kahne be the hit man because of his team's involvement in the Texas fight ... but Brad has run out of friends on the track. The "you race me clean and I'll race you clean" code of conduct has been broken.

The radio chatter during the 5 vs 55 on track battle is what I expect ... "oops, the car didn't turn" ...


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> So it is Kenseth's fault when Brad does not leave a hole for Kenseth (and runs him into the wall) but Gordon's fault when Gordon does not leave a hole for Brad??? I suppose Brad should complain that Gordon didn't get out of his way - even though Brad certainly didn't get out of the way for Kenseth's faster car a few week's earlier.
> 
> Have you been imbibing Brad's sponsor's product? :goodjob:
> 
> I will be very surprised if someone doesn't find a reason to race Brad extremely hard next week - especially near the end of the race where there would be no recovery time to repair and get enough points to advance to Homestead. I would not want to see Kahne be the hit man because of his team's involvement in the Texas fight ... but Brad has run out of friends on the track. The "you race me clean and I'll race you clean" code of conduct has been broken.
> 
> The radio chatter during the 5 vs 55 on track battle is what I expect ... "oops, the car didn't turn" ...


There were 2 camera shots that convinced me that Jeff came down onto Brad. One was an overhead shot and the other was the shot from the roof camera on Kevin's car that was right behind them.

I would like to see Brad and Joey put into the wall by anybody not in the chase. A contender could also put themselves out if they do it.

I have to say that the new format for the chase certainly has amped up the intensity.

Edit / Add: I do not drink anything except Diet Cokes, ever.
I have a son that got 2 DUIs way back in the 90's. As an example of showing him what to do I poured out everything in my house and cut out the occasional drink at parties, etc. He has done almost the same. He now will not have a drink unless he is home.


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## LMckin

I would like see them go back to the old system who ever get the most points wins. like it was in the 70s-80s


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## James Long

Hmmm ... I hope Keselowski has got that "winning" thing out of his system for the rest of the weekend. 

If they finish in qualifying order, Hamlin, Logano, Kenseth and Keselowski make the cut ... Gordon, Harvick, Newman and Edwards are eliminated.

BTW: In the race for fifth place, all 12 eliminated chasers (8 so far plus 4 to be eliminated Sunday) will race for fifth place or worse. Currently Jimmie Johnson is in 10th place overall ... Kyle Busch is in 6th place. The other eight drivers currently in the top 10 are the non-eliminated drivers.


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## jimmie57

James,
The qualifying list on the Nascar site shows in order starting on the pole,
the 11, the 2, the 4, the 22 cars as the first 4. Then chase drivers after that are the 20, the 24, the 99 and last is the 31.

On this track qualifying gets you up front for the start but blown tires and aggressive driving will be a lot different than qualifying.


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## James Long

My math included the points already earned in this round.

If they finish where they start (my hypothetical):
Hamilin (Pole) gets his second win of the year and advances to the final race.
Keselowski (2nd) finishes 4th in points tied with Gordon (winning the tiebreaker).
Harvick (3rd) finishes 6th in points and is eliminated.
Logano (4th) finishes 2nd in points and advances.
Kenseth (5th) finishes 3rd in points and advances (winless).
Gordon (7th) finishes tied for 4th but loses the tiebreaker.
Newman (20th) finishes 7th in points and is eliminated.
Edwards (13th) finishes 8th in points and is eliminated.

I doubt if they will finish how they started ... but that was the hypothetical and the math. My prediction is Hamlin, Logano and Newman racing well enough to advance and a race winner coming from the other five contenders.


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## jimmie57

I will not even venture a guess on this track in this situation for sure. Soon we will have results.


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## James Long

James Long said:


> My prediction is Hamlin, Logano and Newman racing well enough to advance and a race winner coming from the other five contenders.


Race Winner: Kevin Harvick ... All previous champions eliminated from the championship.

I hate to see Gordon and Edwards out ... but it just wasn't their year and there are only four slots in the finale.


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## fluffybear

LMckin said:


> I would like see them go back to the old system who ever get the most points wins. like it was in the 70s-80s


Agreed! I understand that Bill France wanted all the drama and he got it but I much prefer crowning a champion based on their season long performance...


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## jimmie57

fluffybear said:


> Agreed! I understand that Bill France wanted all the drama and he got it but I much prefer crowning a champion based on their season long performance...


This is from Jayski dot com: Jeff is in first place and Joey is 29 points behind.

*Unofficial Top 25 in 2014 Sprint Cup Driver Points Standings (not the Chase):*
[after Phoenix, race 35 of 36]
(*using current points system, but not the Chase rules,* unofficial)

1) #24-Jeff Gordon(EC), 1217

2) #22-Joey Logano(C2), 1188, -29

3) #88-Dale Earnhardt Jr.(EC), 1145, -72
4) #2-Brad Keselowski(EC), 1138, -79
5) #4-Kevin Harvick(C4), 1124, -93
6) #20-Matt Kenseth(EC), 1093, -124
7) #31-Ryan Newman(C3), 1093, -124
8) #99-Carl Edwards(EC), 1050, -167
9) #42-Kyle Larson, 1049, -168
10) #48-Jimmie Johnson(EC), 1032, -185


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## hookemfins

LMckin said:


> I would like see them go back to the old system who ever get the most points wins. like it was in the 70s-80s


I suppose you'd like to also go back to the winner being the only one on the lead lap?

I like the chase and the current system. It'll be a pleasure going this Sunday knowing that the highest finisher among the 4 will be the champion instead of someone just having to finish no worse than XX. Using either the numbers from above or using the 2013 chase points system, the current leader (both by 29 points) would only have to finish 25 or better.

I could agree to just using the point system IF they gave more points for winning, a lot more points. Put a major premium on winning. Using the current system I would give at least 58 points for the win plus the bonus points.


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## James Long

This goes back to the early complaint about the new system - why does NASCAR have to be like other sports?

It seems that when the new chase format is called into question a comparison to other sports is drawn. For example, when the specter of a winless champion is raised Brian France of NASCAR will gladly state that sports teams with losing season records can win the championships in their sports. But there is a difference: A losing season record in other sports is losing more games than the teams win ... not having absolutely zero wins. Even the team with a bad record that wins the championship wins one matchup. NASCAR can crown a champion who has not won a race all year.

NASCAR added the "post season" manipulations of wildcards and tightening up points to make the last ten races a closer battle for the championship. This year's rounds have left twelve drivers, then eight drivers, and now four drivers tied for first place. Equal points regardless of having unequal seasons.

Joey Logano won three "regular season" races then two more in the chase. Kevin Harvick won two then two more. Denny Hamlin won once earlier in the year - none in the chase - and Ryan Newman hasn't won a race. They all enter the next race tied. Why? To build drama, sell race tickets and increase viewership. Not bad goals if one is trying to make money ... but the level of manipulation to create drama is set to maximum. Or at least I hope NASCAR doesn't find a way to change the format to add more drama. (Perhaps they should add a fifth driver to the final one race round via popular vote?)

The defense is that other sports manipulate by having wildcards and championships where winning comes down to a single contest ... perhaps even to a single play within that contest if it changes the outcome. NASCAR had that before the recent chase changes ... Now it seems that the dial is set to 11.

So I understand where people don't like the artificial tightening of the scoreboard and want to go back to simpler times when NASCAR was not trying so hard to be another sport.


As for the finale, all Ryan Newman has to do this week is beat three cars ... not all 42 other competitors, just three. The last time he beat all three was Martinsville ... and Talladega the week before. Denny Hamlin has not beaten all three during the chase this year, Kevin Harvick beat all three at Phoenix (win), Texas and Charlotte (win). Joey Logano beat the three others at Kansas (win), Dover, New Hampshire (win) and Chicago.

Of the four I want Ryan to win ... he is a local boy around here. He even got a local road dedicated to him when he won the Daytona 500 a few years back. And it would really frost the sports pundits who said "we're not going to have a winless champion" if he manages to win a championship without winning Homestead. "It has always been possible" ... but the tighter NASCAR manipulates the racing the more likely it is an "underdog" will sneak in.

I want Ryan to win ... but would that be good for the sport? Only if he wins the race.


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## hookemfins

jimmie57 said:


> This is from Jayski dot com: Jeff is in first place and Joey is 29 points behind.
> 
> *Unofficial Top 25 in 2014 Sprint Cup Driver Points Standings (not the Chase):*
> [after Phoenix, race 35 of 36]


I forgot to add that the problem with any comparison to older point systems is that the drivers would have driven differently or used different strategies.



> Why? To build drama, sell race tickets and increase viewership. Not bad goals if one is trying to make money ..


But it is all about money. That's why MLB added the wild card playing game. It's why the NFL is considering diluting the playoffs with more wild card teams. They want to pump up more interest to sell tickets in teams that otherwise would have been hopelessly eliminated from the playoffs.

Technically speaking all the drivers have losing records as they lose more race than they win.

Before NASCAR came up with this format I wanted ALL race winners in the chase, as long as they were 20th or better in the points.

NASCAR needs to build artificial hype to draw interest from the younger demographics in order to compete and stay viable long term.

As for this weekend, I want Denny to win. For various reasons he's the only driver remaining I like. 
Harvick I hate. Joey pissed me off last year at Cali when he would rather wreck Denny than win the race. I like Ryan but do not like his car owner, RC. I am fan of JGR.


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## jimmie57

My prediction for this weekend.
Kevin, Joey, Denny and then Ryan

I would like to see Kevin or Denny win. Denny has been beat up, literally, for the last 2 or 3 years and deserves something better.
Kevin is just , as his car says on the side, "Freaky Fast". He is a heck of a driver.
I used to like Joey but I have seen him intentionally wreck several people lately and I do not like that.

I would wonder what the lineup would look like if they carried over the points from each segment of the chase to the next round, provided they made it to the next round.


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> I forgot to add that the problem with any comparison to older point systems is that the drivers would have driven differently or used different strategies.


True ... and that is one of the things NASCAR is trying to fix.
Drivers aim to do "what is necessary" to advance or win the championship.
When what is necessary is "finish 15th" you'll find them finishing 15th.

Newman made that strategy public when he stated all he needed in an earlier round was an average 8th place finish to advance ... he proved his theory.

This week beating the other three drivers will be what is necessary ... which probably means win. The 2011 chase with Tony's win, Carl 2nd, a tie in points broken by the number of wins is what NASCAR would like to see. The four casers finishing 1 2 3 4 with the champion taking the checkered flag. No burnouts for the race winner while the champion waits in turn 4.

Drivers still only have to do what is necessary ... the new system just makes it easier to advance if one wins.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> I would wonder what the lineup would look like if they carried over the points from each segment of the chase to the next round, provided they made it to the next round.


The rounding up to 3000, 4000 and 5000 breaks that. Without rounding the totals would be:
2368 Joey Logano
2342 Kevin Harvick
2320 Brad Keselowski
2312 Jeff Gordon
2311 Ryan Newman
2296 Matt Kenseth
2293 Denny Hamlin
2280 Kyle Busch
2278 Carl Edwards
2271 Dale Earnhardt, Jr.
2256 A J Allmendinger
2244 Greg Biffle
2239 Jimmie Johnson
2229 Kurt Busch
2202 Kasey Kahne
2170 Aric Almirola


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## jimmie57

When the first cycle / elimination was done if the driver moved on he would keep the points he earned in that cycle and add to them the next increment of numbers.
When you move to 3,000 if you earned 40 points in that session you would have 3,040, etc.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> When the first cycle / elimination was done if the driver moved on he would keep the points he earned in that cycle and add to them the next increment of numbers.
> When you move to 3,000 if you earned 40 points in that session you would have 3,040, etc.


OK ... Challenger Round eliminates four and leaves 12 (reseeded):
3128 Brad Keselowski (W)
3127 Joey Logano (W)
3117 Kevin Harvick
3112 Jimmie Johnson
3108 Jeff Gordon (W)
3108 Kyle Busch
3097 Matt Kenseth
3095 Dale Earnhardt, Jr.
3091 Ryan Newman
3085 Carl Edwards
3078 Denny Hamlin
3076 Kasey Kahne

Contender Round eliminates four and leaves 8:
3248 Joey Logano (W)
3234 Kevin Harvick (W)
3213 Brad Keselowski (W)
3208 Ryan Newman
3201 Jeff Gordon
3196 Matt Kenseth
3194 Kyle Busch
3184 Carl Edwards
Eliminated:
3178 Denny Hamlin
3166 Kasey Kahne
3165 Jimmie Johnson
3140 Dale Earnhardt, Jr.
(Keeping Kyle instead of Denny)

Reseeded (4000+ points earned Kansas, Charlotte, Talladega):
4121 Joey Logano
4117 Kevin Harvick
4117 Ryan Newman
4099 Matt Kenseth
4099 Carl Edwards
4093 Jeff Gordon
4086 Kyle Busch
4085 Brad Keselowski

Eliminator Round eliminates four and leaves four:
4232 Joey Logano
4220 Ryan Newman
4219 Kevin Harvick (W)
4199 Matt Kenseth
Eliminated:
4195 Jeff Gordon
4187 Carl Edwards
4180 Brad Keselowski
4169 Kyle Busch
(Kyle gone ... Matt still alive)

Reseeded (5000+ points earned Martinsville, Texas, Phoenix
5111 Joey Logano
5103 Ryan Newman
5102 Kevin Harvick
5100 Matt Kenseth

That is if seeding is allowed for the finale. With seeding Newman could win and lead the most laps, ending with 5151 points. Joey would need to earn 41 points for the championship ... 4th place with a lap led. If Harvick won and led the most laps Joey would need 3rd with a lap led.

Theoretically Newman wins, Harvick comes in 2nd, Matt comes in 3rd, Joey comes in 4th ... Joey gets the championship with seeding. (I am glad they are not doing that.)


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## jimmie57

Interesting. Only 1 driver different this way that the official way. Denny is out and Matt is in for the last race.
You did a lot of work for that.
Thanks


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## hookemfins

With out a doubt my favorite race of weekend is the truck race and tonight didn't disappoint. Bubba Wallace out dueled Kyle Larson in race Kyle Busch usually dominates. 

Missing tomorrow's race but I can't wait for Sunday's finale. 


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## James Long

I watch the truck races occasionally ... but with less races than the other series and less drivers (and a reduction in drivers per race next year) I wonder if the series will last. At least they have Eldora. If NASCAR ever races cars at Eldora (Xfinity or Cup) Eldora will be less special. I would not mind seeing "Prelude to the Dream" return.

Congrats to Crafton (although Hornaday deserves a legitimate shot at a 5th).

I've been thinking about Sunday all week (which is just what NASCAR wants!). Qualifying put only one remaining chaser in the top five (#4 qualified 4th) and three in the top ten. But it isn't where you start, it is where you finish. Or so says the chaser who qualified 21st. 

Two time Nationwide champ Harvick seems to be the favorite. Logano is the other favorite (Toyota's first Cup championship - two years after Dodge broke up the long run of Chevys). Hamilin has been close so many times that he hurts - but he hasn't beaten all three of the remaining chasers in the same race in a long time (earlier this year).

Newman seems to be the underdog favorite ... he has won the right races in the past (Daytona and Indy). He has won 17 out of the 475 Cup races he has been in - but has had 198 top tens. His best chase finish has been 6th three times. He has beaten that this year with a finish of at least 4th. He is a good driver, but probably not a great driver. The thought of him winning after being dismissed by his friend Tony Stewart *and* beating the guy who replaced him just adds to the story. One thing for sure ... anything more than 4th is "exceeding expectations".

Generally speaking, championships are lost easier than they are won. Hopefully the championship will be won or lost based on the performance of the four remaining chasers ... not on a mistake made by another driver. And if Newman needs to use Harvick as a guardrail to make it around the last corner to get to the checkered flag I suppose that is ok. 

Congrats to Gordon on his first Homestead pole (Hendricks 200th). It is amazing that there are still firsts left for Gordon. It should be an interesting race.


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## jimmie57

hookemfins said:


> With out a doubt my favorite race of weekend is the truck race and tonight didn't disappoint. Bubba Wallace out dueled Kyle Larson in race Kyle Busch usually dominates.
> 
> Missing tomorrow's race but I can't wait for Sunday's finale.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


It was a very good race. I found Bubba's comments to sound as if he was not going to be back next year. Like maybe his contract is up and has not been resigned or offered another ride in anything else for next year ?


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## hookemfins

jimmie57 said:


> It was a very good race. I found Bubba's comments to sound as if he was not going to be back next year. Like maybe his contract is up and has not been resigned or offered another ride in anything else for next year ?


He won't be back at KBM for the trucks. Bubba won't have a full time ride in the Bush series but will race part time for JGR. I was thinking that Bubba would get the ride vacated by Sadler. Next year Kyle will only run 6 races and will have two full time teams in the truck series. Eric Jones will have one of the rides.


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## James Long

August 19th:


> J.D. Gibbs also said that current NASCAR Camping World Truck Series driver Darrell "Bubba" Wallace Jr. would run full-time in the Nationwide Series for the team in 2015 joining Suarez as the two full-time drivers. The team usually fields the No. 20 Toyota entry as well so it appears Wallace will pilot that entry although details of the deal aren't known at this time.
> 
> Race Review Online


To Xfinity ... and beyond?

Did Race Review Online get the story wrong?


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## jimmie57

This is the video interview I watched.

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/bubba-39-wild-39-043005285.html


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> August 19th:
> 
> To Xfinity ... and beyond?
> 
> Did Race Review Online get the story wrong?


I heard an interview with Bybba on my way home from the race on XM NASCAR and he said sponsorship is tough to get. Maybe that's Joe GIbbs intention but with no full time sponsorship, who knows? It was sort of on the same line as with the above video.

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## James Long

Ashlyn Newman and Keelan Harvick


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## James Long

Well, lets see if it works out that close next year. 

I bet most people didn't have Newman as 2nd place ... in the race or the cup.
Kevin forgot he won the race? 
Ryan "you got to lose one to win one".

Good season. Time to delete the timers for ESPN.


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## scooper

Actually James - I just leave them...but I guess you're right - ESPN timers for Cup are now passe'....


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## James Long

scooper said:


> Actually James - I just leave them...but I guess you're right - ESPN timers for Cup are now passe'....


Nationwide (Xfinity) is gone from ABC/ESPN next year as well. Fox and NBC are splitting both of the top series.


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## James Long

BTW: Without the bump to 5000 points for the final four the finishing order would be:
2396 Joey Logano
2389 Kevin Harvick
2361 Brad Keselowski
2353 Ryan Newman
2348 Jeff Gordon
2334 Matt Kenseth
2331 Denny Hamlin
(8th on back remain the same order and points)
(Standard disclaimer about people racing differently based on the points system in place applies.)


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## hookemfins

I've been to all the Homestead Miami races and today may have been the best. Lots of great racing action, especially among the champion hopefuls. Ryan did a good job of steadily getting himself into hunt. Denny kept getting stronger and probably would have been the champ had it not been for a miscalculation by Grubb. I would have gone come in for at least 2 tires. Those late cautions hurt Denny (and Jeff). 

Was there really debri? I wouldn't be surprised if NASCAR planted those debri for a contrived finish. 

I think it's only 97 shopping days until Daytona 500. 


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> Was there really debri? I wouldn't be surprised if NASCAR planted those debri for a contrived finish.


ESPN did a good job of showing the debris (sorry conspiracy theorists) before a NASCAR truck got out to the location. They were even able to identify the source car in at least one occurrence.

The only debris caution I saw as odd was the first one early in the race where the cause was apparently some cables outside of the catch fence. It was safer to have people working on those cables without cars running at race speeds on the other side of the fence but I'm not sure what the problem was they fixed and how it affected the race surface. It was not a caution that determined the outcome of the race.

As for Newman ... it took 75 laps for him to catch Logano and the rest of the remaining chasers. Qualifying 21st didn't seem to slow him down. I hope he does well next year and does not suffer the curse of finishing the championship second.


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## jimmie57

The next season is going to be quite different with the less horsepower and the less down force on the rear spoilers. I am thinking they are going to slow down much more getting into and thru the corners. The speeds will probably drop a little bit but not too much. Will this make them even closer in speed to the Nationwide / Xfinity cars ? It should bring the close to "And we have a New Track Record" from the announcers.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> ESPN did a good job of showing the debris (sorry conspiracy theorists) before a NASCAR truck got out to the location. They were even able to identify the source car in at least one occurrence.


The only debris caution where I didn't see the debris was the final one resulting in the GWC. The others were shown on fan vision or explained by MRN radio.



> I am thinking they are going to slow down much more getting into and thru the corners. The speeds will probably drop a little bit but not too much.


Top speeds at the top of the stretch will only be reduced by 5-10 MPH. The HP will be reduced from 850 to 725. In time these crew chiefs and teams will figure out how to get more speed in the cars despite the reduced HP. They are also using tapered spacers as is used in NNS and NCWTS. Between the reduced HP and aero changes we "hopefully" will get more side by side racing at the front of the field.


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## James Long

One change I heard for next year was that the Xfinity (gotta get used to that) and Cup cars would be closer together ... so Cup drivers would get more benefit and experience driving Xfinity cars than they did this year. With NO TESTING allowed, drivers may choose to "test" by driving Xfinity cars.

Which means we may see more Cup drivers in Xfinity cars next year. 

BTW: If they do not fix the side skirt issue it will be a crime.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> Which means we may see more Cup drivers in Xfinity cars next year.


I'm in the minority but I like cup drivers in the Busch series (won't call it that other name). I think it helps the younger drivers. I have never heard a driver complain about cup drivers in a lower series.

The number of races a cup driver runs in the Bush series is driven by sponsorship. I want the cup drivers to drive X number of races. I also think that by Kyle Busch driving in a lot of races in the lower series has allowed him to form his own team. Without KBM Bubba Wallace and Eric Jones might never have been discovered.

I did hear that Joe Gibbs said they working on a full time ride for Bubba and as discussed above, Eric Jones gets the full time ride in the NCWTS for KBM.


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## jimmie57

I recorded a program on FS! called Nascar 2015 and it shows the race lineups, dates, who is going to broadcast it, etc. Unless I am wrong 18 19 of the 36 40 races are going to be on FOX and NBC ( nationally broadcast ). The remainder of them will be on FS1 and NBCSN. The first part of the season is going to be on FOX and the later part is on NBC.
This will certainly make it available to more viewers and easier to find in the Guide.


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## James Long

I don't see a replay scheduled ... Race Hub did a special when the 2015 dates were announced, including the major shifts in race dates.

In 2014 Fox aired 13 races, ABC aired 3, ESPN aired 14 and TNT had 6. 16 broadcast, 20 cable.
In 2015 Fox airs 10 races, FS1 airs 6, NBC airs 7 and NBCSN airs 13. 17 broadcast, 19 cable.

The 2014 and previous seasons were also split Fox first, then ABC/ESPN with TNT's "Summer Series".


On the Nationwide/Xfinity side ESPN had all the races and placed four of them on ABC broadcast.
I have not looked to see how many will be on broadcast in 2015.

EDIT: Four Xfinitys on Fox, Four Xfinities on NBC. The rest on cable.


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## hookemfins

FS1 will do 8 Sprint Cup races, including the All Star Race and the duels. NBCSN will broadcast 13 races.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2014/8/26/2015-nascar-schedule-release-sprint-cup-series-darlington-bristol.html

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## jimmie57

It will not be long until we will be watching the races once again.
Lots of changes this year. New drivers coming into the series, crew chief changes, pit crew changes, cars added to teams, collaboration between teams, etc.


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## James Long

Bye Jeff, Hello Chase (official for 2016 announced today).

Hall of Famer Richard Petty is keeping it classy: Richard Petty: No. 9 is Chase Elliott's if he wants it
"It doesn't mean anything to me, but it does to the sponsors we'd already signed for this year. If the kid wants it next year, though, that's fine with us."

I don't know how attached Hendrick's is to the 24.

Papa "Million Dollar" Bill will be inducted tomorrow.

A programming note: the show is on NBC Sports Net (NBC got rights to the inductions as part of the 10 year contract). Pre-Show at 7pm ET and the inductions at 8pm-10pm. Stay tuned for a crossover between NASCAR and the NFL (in preparation for the Superbowl) at 10PM


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## 4HiMarks

But is he going to switch to Fords like his Daddy drove?


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## James Long

4HiMarks said:


> But is he going to switch to Fords like his Daddy drove?


No. He will drive championship winning Hendricks cars with Chevrolet branding.

BTW: The last Ford to be driven to a driver's championship in cup was 2004 by Kurt Busch. Kenseth won his championship in 2003 in a Ford. The last non Chevrolet to be driven to a driver's championship was a Dodge.

Gotta get Dodges back in the race.


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## 4HiMarks

Given the overwhelming number of Teams driving Chevys, that isn't too surprising. I would love to see Mopar back in it, and maybe another "foreign" brand. I know they were all GM, but I miss the days when we had Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, and Olds all competing against the Fords.


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## jimmie57

4HiMarks said:


> Given the overwhelming number of Teams driving Chevys, that isn't too surprising. I would love to see Mopar back in it, and maybe another "foreign" brand. I know they were all GM, but I miss the days when we had Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, and Olds all competing against the Fords.


Yep, I would like to see Dodge in it again.


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## 4HiMarks

I also miss the days when Hoosier tires were in the mix. The more choices for a team to make, the more competition. Some choices you make for a season (car make). Some just for a race (car setup, tire make). And some for a run between pit stops (2 or 4 tires, fuel only, stay out, etc.)


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## jimmie57

3 races, 3 different winners so far.
Jeff is not looking too good so far, 3 races, 3 wrecks.
JJ is going back to the blowing tires already like he did last year and the year before. Must be something in the way they set the alignment on his car.

I watched these first 3 live. I will start watching the Phoenix race about an hour after it actually starts using the DVR to record it first. The endless commercials just kill me. Mercy !


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## 4HiMarks

I always start late, especially when it is a west coast race that doesn't get underway until 3:00. I'll watch the beginning, up to the first set of pit stops in realtime, then FF through a lot of the green flag action unless there is a particularly compelling bit of side-by-side, then go back to normal speed for pits and to see who's to blame for a wreck. Then I'll watch the last 50 or so laps in real-time again, unless someone is just running away with it. But you never know. Dale Sr. dominated the whole race and had a good lead when he had a tire go down entering turn 3 on the last lap at Daytona some years back.


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## James Long

Vegas without the Buschs ... who would have bet on that at the end of last season?


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Vegas without the Buschs ... who would have bet on that at the end of last season?


I think that was a bum deal that Kurt got. 36 hours before the Daytona 500 to put out that statement and caused NASCAR to take Kurt out of racing without being criminally charged and then the same people that put out that statement saying that they do not have enough evidence now is just wrong.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> I think that was a bum deal that Kurt got. 36 hours before the Daytona 500 to put out that statement and caused NASCAR to take Kurt out of racing without being criminally charged and then the same people that put out that statement saying that they do not have enough evidence now is just wrong.


Different people. The family court that issued the restraining order and later statement that claimed Kurt likely did commit abuse was not the same as the prosecutors who said there was not enough evidence for a criminal case.

With Kurt's prior problems with NASCAR and reputation for anger issues I am surprised that they did not act sooner. The timing was bad ... but the decision was right. Kurt committed an action detrimental to NASCAR. He put himself and the sport in a bad position. Hopefully his "road to recovery" is smooth and he gets to race again. It seems that Stewart-Haas is supportive ... so unlike AJ Allmendinger he is less likely to lose his ride over "one stupid mistake" (not changing the door code on his motor home). Kurt has already spent years working his way back from prior stupidity.

I wonder if Kyle will make it back this year. He has painful injuries (ask Tony Stewart). Both got hurt doing what they love instead of doing their headline job (Cup Driver). The boys have to race.

It seems like this year's topics so far are SAFER barriers (more please), in-car trackbar adjustments, electronic pit road enforcement and car changes that still allowed for new track records in qualifying. I look forward to Gordon winning his final full season races (Homestead please). So far not a bad year.


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## jimmie57

I don't think that Kyle will sit out this year, he loves it too much. Hopefully he does not come back too soon.
The changes were made to slow down the RPMs of the engines and save teams money. They dropped the limit to 9,000 from what I heard one Nascar official say. However I did see Brad's car telemetry go to 9,200 a couple of times in the last race practice. They added a roller type cam shaft and that should help with the life of the engines. Cutting the spoiler down 2" was done to make the cars harder to handle and to test the drivers skills a little bit more. The downside to that was the cars could go faster with the less drag and this pulled the speeds back up to basically the same. There was lots of passing so far, except for the leaders who seem to just drive off from everyone.

Definitely in favor of the safer barrier walls, even when it takes away a couple of feet of the width of the racing surface.


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## jimmie57

Kurt was just reinstated by Nascar and is eligible for the Chase if he wins or gets there on points.
He remains under indefinite Probation.


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## James Long

That was quick ... now all Kirk has to do is get a win and work his way into the top 30 with three races scored at zero.


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## jimmie57

Wow, Ryan Newman and his team just got caught manipulating tires. Punished 75 driver points, loss of crew chief, engineer, tire guy, etc. etc.
They say they are putting super small holes in the tires to keep them from building up too much pressure,
and , if that works then it allows them to start off with a higher pressure in the tires because the hole will bleed off the higher pressures as the tires get hot.
That dropped Ryan way down the standings list
and Moved Danica from 16th place to 15th place.
Danica drove a good race Sunday for sure.


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## James Long

It makes it harder for Newman to get in to the chase on points ... A win should be enough. If I understand correctly the penalty moves Newman from 6th to 27th in the points standing. Last year Harvick was in 28th after the same number of races and it worked out OK for him.

Down, but not out.


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## hookemfins

I always thought top 30 in points was too high. When I came up with a plan for race winners getting into the chase I said top 20 only. That way race winners still had to show up and race instead of working on chase tracks. 



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## James Long

The championship system was created to encourage drivers to show up for more races. Back in the early days many drivers would show up for the best races and not bother at other tracks. The points system (especially in recent years with 36 races) made it difficult to miss races and still win a championship.

Some drivers decided not to run for the championships and went after key race victories. Good drivers that could win a dozen races a year but not get the championship because they decided not to race all of the races.

Top 30 and a win would be "too easy" ... NASCAR added the rule requiring participation in every event (at minimum try to qualify) but the waiver process seems to be an issue this year.

Last year (if I understand correctly) one driver received the promise of a waiver for missed races. Two other drivers met minimum participation (Menard did not qualify but ran the race, Hamlin qualified but did not race). No waiver was needed. Tony Stewart was promised a waiver for his time away.

In the modern era I like the waiver process ... I do NOT want to see drivers race hurt and further damage themselves or other participants. But this year the waiver issue has grown. Kurt got a waiver for races missed due to serving a penalty handed down by NASCAR. What is an allowable excuse for not participating?

I am not overly concerned with a "participation" rule as I believe sponsors will keep the drivers in the car ... Denny Hamlin sitting out a few races "because he feels like it" is unlikely because he has sponsors that pay him and his race team to have him in the car every week. A team that is not fully sponsored is less likely to hit the top 30 threshold unless they show up and get points in each race.

To make it simple NASCAR could drop the participation rule and raise the bar to "top 25". Top 20 is too close to the 16 that will make the chase ... one might as well just say top 16 regardless of wins. Top 25 seems to be a good compromise.

Last year the lowest driver to make the chase was in 23rd after 26 races. Drivers in 21st, 22nd and 23rd had a win and made the chase. Drivers in 3rd, 9th and 10th in points made the chase without a win. No winners were eliminated from the chase. Going with a "Top 20" rule would have eliminated three race winners and brought in 12th, 13th and 16th place drivers.

Who the last three drivers are is usually irrelevant ... no one outside the top 10 with 10 races to go has ever won a NASCAR championship. A good driver who had a bad season can turn it around (Tony Stewart in 2011). But he still finished the regular season in the top 10 (not a wild card).

Top 25, wins before points, no minimum participation would work for me.


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## hookemfins

I can live with anything less than top 30 and a win. Too many also rans in top 30.

The waiver you mentioned for Kurt Busch was for "must attempt to qualify" for every race. Kurt still must win and finish in the top 30. He is 24th now. The participation rule doesn't mean you have to physically qualify for the race but show up at the track and attend the drivers meeting.


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## jimmie57

I think inside the top 30 in standings should be changed.
No one should be allowed to run for the championship ( even if they have a win ) if they are not in the top half of the 43 car field. I would like to see it changed to the Top 20 in the standings.


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> The participation rule doesn't mean you have to physically qualify for the race but show up at the track and attend the drivers meeting.


The way NASCAR stated it was "attempt to qualify" for each race. They want more than just showing up.

Last year 705 points was enough to make the chase on points. Kurt missed three races ... theoretically he could finish an average of 12th place without leading laps and have enough points to get in to the chase. 30th place was 367 points ... or a win and an average finish of 30th.

BTW: Kyle received 687 points in the first 26 races last year ... an average of 26 points per race. If he races this year and averages 26 points per race he will need 15 races (including a win) to make the chase. Race 11 is in Kansas on May 9th. Race 12 is Charlotte on May 24th.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> The way NASCAR stated it was "attempt to qualify" for each race. They want more than just showing up.


It's actually, they must go through inspection.


> BTW: Kyle received 687 points in the first 26 races last year ... an average of 26 points per race. If he races this year and averages 26 points per race he will need 15 races (including a win) to make the chase. Race 11 is in Kansas on May 9th. Race 12 is Charlotte on May 24th.


I heard Jimmy Makar say that he thinks that Kyle could be ready by Charlotte but I think that's optimistic. I know he'll be given the waiver. I hope we see Kyle soon back in the car.

On another note, how about Eric Jones last night. Wow, out drove Jr and Keso. If he makes it to cup in '16, who is out at JGR?


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## jimmie57

hookemfins said:


> On another note, how about Eric Jones last night. Wow, out drove Jr and Keso. If he makes it to cup in '16, who is out at JGR?


That was an impressive drive. He has shown this type of driving talent several times already now.
That is a good question.


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> It's actually, they must go through inspection.


Do you have a NASCAR source for that?

RULE 17.6.2.1 ELIGIBILITY
a. Unless otherwise authorized by NASCAR, driver(s) and car owner(s) must start all Championship Events of the current season to be eligible for The Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup. If a starting position was not earned, then the driver(s) and car owners(s) must have attempted to Qualify for the Race.

That rule replaced the 2014 version which read:
a. Drivers and car owners must enter all Championship Events and attempt to Qualify for all Championship Events through the completion of the final Championship Event of the season (EIRI).

(EIRI is "except in rare instances")
http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2015/2/18/rule-bulletin-chase-for-the-nascar-sprint-cup-eligibility.html


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> Do you have a NASCAR source for that?
> 
> RULE 17.6.2.1 ELIGIBILITY
> a. Unless otherwise authorized by NASCAR, driver(s) and car owner(s) must start all Championship Events of the current season to be eligible for The Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup. If a starting position was not earned, then the driver(s) and car owners(s) must have attempted to Qualify for the Race.


I heard from 2 sources from the media, Pete Pistone from The Morning Drive XM Radio and I forget which reporter said on Twitter. It was either Jim Utter or Bob Pockrass. I'll tweet TMD and see if they will clarify the rule when NASCAR VP Steve O Donnel comes on Minday morning.

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## 4HiMarks

What is the definition of "attempt to qualify"? Does it mean make an actual qualification run of at least one lap, or is it to present a car for inspection prior to running that lap? You both could be right. If a car fails inspection and can't be fixed in time to make the actual run, is that considered an attempt?


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## James Long

The answer given this morning at 8:15 (or so) AM Eastern was vague.
The question I wanted to hear answered was "Define 'attempt to qualify'. Is the driver required to take a lap? If not, what is the minimum?"

It seems to me that the rule is written based on one driver one car ... if a driver attempts to qualify and qualifies they are expected to race (EIRI). If a driver attempts to qualify and fails the car doesn't race either, Having a race winning driver continue to "attempt to qualify" for the remainder of the season but then step out of the car before the race is not the intent. If you qualify the car you race the car. EIRI (except in rare instances) - which would hopefully be medical or other major reasons.

If some driver needs to attempt to qualify but not actually race they can always put a minimum race car on the track, run a slow lap and hope that they do not get in. And if they get in a "start and park" should satisfy the "and compete" part of the 2015 rule. (Then wait for the 2016 rule change to address minimum participation.)

Win and minimally participate in a half dozen races would work for a decent driver. The drivers still need to stay in the top 30.


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## James Long

Something new coming soon ... Digital Dashboard.
















> In fact NASCAR rule book states the a digital dash display "may be used at all Events after August 5, 2015. Digital dash display use will not be permitted before August 5, 1015. Effective January 1, 2016, a digital dash display must be used at all Events."
> 
> "That is the ultimate goal, is to get as much information as we can - first and foremost to the drivers and crew chiefs that they can see and react to - but ultimately to the fans," O'Donnell said. "So if you're sitting at the race track, and you're on your device, we want you to essentially be in Denny Hamlin's car and be able to see what he is seeing and react to it.


http://www.mrn.com/Race-Series/NASCAR-Sprint-Cup/News/Articles/2015/04/Jamie-McMurray-Gives-Sneak-Peek-at-New-Digital-Dashboard.aspx


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## 4HiMarks

I sure hope that doesn't prove to be too distracting to the drivers. Wouldn't a Heads-up display be better?


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## James Long

It looks like most of the gauges are the same as the current display ... with the addition of "lap time" which I'm not sure if they have or not.

It won't "ruin the sport" but could they give the guys a speedometer? We get one at home when TV is tracking a car.


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## hookemfins

I was the one who tweeted in the question. I meant to include "is it qualify or inspection?" 

If you have Twitter ask a follow up for a clearer definition. My attempt was an #epicfailure




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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> I was the one who tweeted in the question. I meant to include "is it qualify or inspection?"
> 
> If you have Twitter ask a follow up for a clearer definition. My attempt was an #epicfailure


For a national radio audience they need to talk about things of national interest ... I was surprised to hear the question addressed at all, nut the hosts found a way to introduce it as part of a national question.

The way qualifying has gone some weeks "taking a lap" has not been accomplished. For the teams that qualify on points it isn't a big deal ... they are in the race and start the race. Basically they have satisfied the qualify and race part of the rules. The lower teams would be the question ... do they have to pass inspection to be considered an attempt to qualify? Hopefully they need to line up and try to take a lap.

Controversies of the week:
If I had a dollar for every time Dave Moody (SiriusXM) said cheat or cheater over the past week I would could miss a paycheck.

The question of if Kyle would get a waiver or not didn't even cross my mind - I assumed that because his absence is medical a waiver would come. But I would only waive the "participation" rule. NOT the win + top 30 rule. It would be bad if he returned, win and got into the top 30 beating others that were given a half a season head start and then was excluded from the chase. But I understand the fans that don't think Kyle (or anyone else) should be able to sit out that long without forfeiting the chase. I don't consider what Kyle is going through to be a vacation or "just goofing off". The closer we get to Richmond the more that it is a moot point - and Kyle tends to fade in the chase so I doubt he will be "the guy who won a championship after missing a dozen races". But if he did it would be a better story than NASCAR exuding him from the chase.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> The way qualifying has gone some weeks "taking a lap" has not been accomplished. For the teams that qualify on points it isn't a big deal ... they are in the race and start the race. Basically they have satisfied the qualify and race part of the rules. The lower teams would be the question ... do they have to pass inspection to be considered an attempt to qualify? Hopefully they need to line up and try to take a lap.


Who hasn't attempted to Q or just taking laps from a contending team? I know some teams just plain suck so it looks like they are taking Q off but haven't noticed otherwise. Everyone has run laps whose supposed to, that I recall.

Kyle I don't see getting near the top 30, unfortunately. If he makes it back by race 13, doubtful, he'd have to average finishing 31 or better with win just to match David Gilliland 30 places spot after Richmond last year. I know on XM most were bashing the idea. They approached it as how bad the sport would look if a driver who ran in half the races wins the championship. I would turn it around and ask what if Stewart wins a race and fails to make the top 30, and someone wins the championship without winning a race. How bad would the mainstream media roast NASCAR?

I do think NASCAR grants the waiver if he makes it by race 12 or 13. Any later and I think he should be excluded. I am a fan of his BTW.

Shouldn't the title of this thread be changed to NASCAR 2015 Season?


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> Who hasn't attempted to Q or just taking laps from a contending team? I know some teams just plain suck so it looks like they are taking Q off but haven't noticed otherwise. Everyone has run laps whose supposed to, that I recall.


Hopefully it will not become an issue. At the moment it is more of a "bar bet" question ... the rules as published say "attempt to qualify" and (for 2015) "start race (if one qualifys)". The "bar bet" is over what is an attempt to qualify.



hookemfins said:


> I know on XM most were bashing the idea. They approached it as how bad the sport would look if a driver who ran in half the races wins the championship. I would turn it around and ask what if Stewart wins a race and fails to make the top 30, and someone wins the championship without winning a race. How bad would the mainstream media roast NASCAR?


The hosts on SiriusXM worry too much about what the rest of the world thinks. Do "stick and ball" fans worry about what motorsports fans think about their sports? No. Yet the constant push on that channel is for acceptance. Some football player says NASCAR is not a real sport and the media within the sport falls over themselves whining about it. Trying to respond to every dumb jock or political pundit that speaks out of ignorance.

They treat the sport like it is the little brother of the other sports. But "little brother" is doing quite fine thankyouverymuch. NASCAR does not need to prove itself.



hookemfins said:


> I do think NASCAR grants the waiver if he makes it by race 12 or 13. Any later and I think he should be excluded. I am a fan of his BTW.


Grant the waiver and let him meet the challenge. If NASCAR fans (not stick and ball fans or political pundits) don't like the waivers then adjust. Deal with the demands of those inside the sport - not outside the sport.



hookemfins said:


> Shouldn't the title of this thread be changed to NASCAR 2015 Season?


That can be done.


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## jimmie57

I am watching the Xfinity race in Bristol.
The stadium is 90% empty.
I have wondered for a long time: How much does it hurt the Xfinity races attendance to be in the same place as the Cup cars on the same weekend ?
I would think they would get a lot more people if they were the only race in town for the weekend.
I don't think very many people would pay to go on Saturday and then again on Sunday.


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## djlong

In Bristol, people used to go to the Busch/Nationwide/Xfinity race because you couldn't GET tickets to the Cup race. When they start having all those empty seats for the CUP race - that's when I knew NASCAR had things they HAD to fix.


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## James Long

Bristol should be selling more weekend packages. Of course that doesn't help the people who come to town for raceday only and leave because they cannot afford to pay for the entire weekend in a hotel (even if they are only staying one night).

When it comes to hotels, it$ Bri$tol baby.


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## jimmie57

Wow, what a race today and tonight at Bristol. Lots of passing and crashing and rain.
Good to see Matt get a win.

Danica finished 9th. This moved her to 13th place in the standings and I do not get that. When you add up her finish numbers so far and divide them by 8 her average finish is 18th. Before this race I thought she was in 21st place. ??
After reviewing the list again I see about 5 drivers that could possibly pass her at the next race since they are so close in the points. That would move her back to about 18th.

I felt sorry for Kurt. He was running so good and charging to the front after getting tires and then the crash into the already crashed car in front of him.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> Hopefully it will not become an issue. At the moment it is more of a "bar bet" question ... the rules as published say "attempt to qualify" and (for 2015) "start race (if one qualifys)". The "bar bet" is over what is an attempt to qualify.


I tried again under a different twitter handle and Bagman shot back with "What needs clarifying?" When I explained neither him or Pete would respond. I guess the bar bet may never get answered.



> The hosts on SiriusXM worry too much about what the rest of the world thinks. Do "stick and ball" fans worry about what motorsports fans think about their sports? No. Yet the constant push on that channel is for acceptance. Some football player says NASCAR is not a real sport and the media within the sport falls over themselves whining about it. Trying to respond to every dumb jock or political pundit that speaks out of ignorance.


They do because the NASCAR fandom does. The (I hate the term) "stick and ball" fans and media do get their panties in a wad when the general, non sports media says something stupid. The media is the media and will go crazy regardless. I really don't blame the NASCAR media at all.



> Grant the waiver and let him meet the challenge. If NASCAR fans (not stick and ball fans or political pundits) don't like the waivers then adjust. Deal with the demands of those inside the sport - not outside the sport.


Agreed. I don't care how they qualify for the chase. If they meet the criteria, than they are chase eligible.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> Danica finished 9th. This moved her to 13th place in the standings and I do not get that. When you add up her finish numbers so far and divide them by 8 her average finish is 18th. Before this race I thought she was in 21st place. ??
> After reviewing the list again I see about 5 drivers that could possibly pass her at the next race since they are so close in the points. That would move her back to about 18th.


13th place in the points is the 13th highest average finished (less winners taking up the top slots - but hopefully winners would be higher than 13th in points). Do the average finish for people below her and hopefully they have worse numbers.



jimmie57 said:


> I felt sorry for Kurt. He was running so good and charging to the front after getting tires and then the crash into the already crashed car in front of him.


That guy he crashed into would have been a lot better off if Kurt had not steamrolled him. 2nd place, trying not to wreck Jeff Gordon, tap the wall and get nailed by a car that doesn't slow down.

Then again ... it is Bristol. Even teammates can end up wrecking each other out of the race.


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> They do because the NASCAR fandom does. The (I hate the term) "stick and ball" fans and media do get their panties in a wad when the general, non sports media says something stupid. The media is the media and will go crazy regardless. I really don't blame the NASCAR media at all.


NASCAR media needs to learn the process of "don't feed the trolls". Much of what they fight against, on channels and in articles that those they are fighting are not reading, doesn't dignify a response.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> *13th place in the points is the 13th highest average finished (less winners taking up the top slots - but hopefully winners would be higher than 13th in points). Do the average finish for people below her and hopefully they have worse numbers.*
> 
> That guy he crashed into would have been a lot better off if Kurt had not steamrolled him. 2nd place, trying not to wreck Jeff Gordon, tap the wall and get nailed by a car that doesn't slow down.
> 
> Then again ... it is Bristol. Even teammates can end up wrecking each other out of the race.


I just did ( average finish in 8 races ) the top 2 in rankings and a couple that were below her.
Right off the bat I saw that the numbers were correct.
There are about 4 or 5 below her that could pass her up in one race and put her back to 17 or 18 in the standings if they just do a little better or she does a little worse.


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## jimmie57

A sad day for racing today.
Steve Byrnes passed away today.


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## James Long

http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/

http://nascartalk.nbcsports.com/
- Video Tribute w/Ken Squires

http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/

I am glad to see that NASCAR managed to honor Steve this past weekend before he died.
I am recording Race Hub's tribute (just finishing up). I might be able to watch it in a few days.


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## BobCulp

I just heard that NASCAR will leave ESPN and join NBC, coming July 2015. NASCAR has not been on network TV since 2009 And it is a ten year deal.


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## James Long

BobCulp said:


> I just heard that NASCAR will leave ESPN and join NBC, coming July 2015. NASCAR has not been on network TV since 2009 And it is a ten year deal.


There should be posts early in this thread about NASCAR's return to NBC (and the departure from ABC/ESPN and TNT).

As fare as "not been on network TV since 2009" ... the race was on Fox broadcast last weekend (before the rain delay). The first group of races have been on Fox broadcast for the past several years with ABC also carrying select races toward the end of the season.


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## jimmie57

BobCulp said:


> I just heard that NASCAR will leave ESPN and join NBC, coming July 2015. NASCAR has not been on network TV since 2009 And it is a ten year deal.


Here is a Schedule that shows each race and where it will be shown on TV.
http://www.jayski.com/news/pages/story/_/page/2015-NASCAR-Sprint-Cup-Schedule
NBC and NBCSN take over 7-5-2015


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## James Long

Congrats to #41 on the victory and #4 on breaking his slump.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Congrats to #41 on the victory and #4 on breaking *his slump.*


LOL


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## jimmie57

I read an interview on Nascar site today that Nascar was asked if they were going to shorten any races in the future.
France answered that they were considering it. He said they had 9 races that were over 400 miles and they were taking a close look at all the races and possibly cutting them to last about 3 hours on average but that nothing was definitive yet and a work in progress.


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## James Long

Making the races more "TV friendly" is not the worst thing. There are weeks where I watch the beginning then fast forward to any cautions (passing on pit road) or interviews. Cutting out a hundred miles of turning left won't hurt most races.

I am not sure I am ready for kilometers as suggested by Felix Sabates suggested.
300 HM = 186 MI, 400 KM = 248 MI, 500 KM = 310 MI, 600 KM = 372 MI

It would be easier to get in a shorter race on those weekends with bad weather.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Making the races more "TV friendly" is not the worst thing. There are weeks where I watch the beginning then fast forward to any cautions (passing on pit road) or interviews. Cutting out a hundred miles of turning left won't hurt most races.
> 
> I am not sure I am ready for kilometers as suggested by Felix Sabates suggested.
> 300 HM = 186 MI, 400 KM = 248 MI, 500 KM = 310 MI, 600 KM = 372 MI
> 
> It would be easier to get in a shorter race on those weekends with bad weather.


I think one of more races is using the funny numbers already.
I know for sure that some races say the ?? 500 is 500 laps and not miles.

They are saying that the drivers get complacent and tend to just be acceptable of where they are on long races in the middle of them and get aggressive towards the end. The idea is to cut out the middle where they are complacent. I have seen this quite often.

In any case the racing has been very good so far this year.

I am curios to see if the cars go faster with this smaller wing on the back than they had last year in Talladega or are they putting the old wing back on them for this race ? If they go much faster they will leave the ground and take flight.


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## jimmie57

*9:41 am GoDaddy -1.2% after announcing it will exit NASCAR sponsorship at the end of the 2015 season, notes it is working to retain Danica Patrick as a spokeswoman (**GDDY**)* :
The co noted that while it is not renewing its primary sponsorship of the No. 10 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series team of Stewart-Haas Racing and driver Danica Patrick,
the company is negotiating to keep Patrick as a GoDaddy spokeswoman under a personal services agreement.


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## 4HiMarks

jimmie57 said:


> *9:41 am GoDaddy -1.2% after announcing it will exit NASCAR sponsorship at the end of the 2015 season, notes it is working to retain Danica Patrick as a spokeswoman (**GDDY**)* :
> The co noted that while it is not renewing its primary sponsorship of the No. 10 NASCAR Sprint Cup Series team of Stewart-Haas Racing and driver Danica Patrick,
> the company is negotiating to keep Patrick as a GoDaddy spokeswoman under a personal services agreement.


A web hosting and domain registration company never did seem to quite fit in with NASCAR's demographic base. For a while, sponsorships were coming from all over when it was at the height of popularity, DW in the Tide car, Alan Kulwicki and Hooters, plus a number of spirits like Jim Beam and Jack Daniels, but I don't see them any more on the top tier cars. It is still more diverse than the old days when it was almost exclusively beer, tobacco, oil companies, and auto parts, though.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> I think one of more races is using the funny numbers already.
> I know for sure that some races say the ?? 500 is 500 laps and not miles.


Races usually use the highest number ... a track less than a mile uses laps (last week was 250 and a 400 lap races). A track longer than a mile uses miles. The promoters like the bigger numbers.

We had the Aaron's 312 (km) last year at Talladega. This year's sponsor Winn Dixie is for a 300.
There are other examples where a special number was used.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> 9:41 am GoDaddy -1.2% after announcing it will exit NASCAR sponsorship at the end of the 2015 season, notes it is working to retain Danica Patrick as a spokeswoman


Danica (and Kurt) will have a ride as long as there is someone willing to sponsor their car.
Danica's driving is improving ... so perhaps she will find a sponsor (Kurt has Mr Haas).

This being her contract year makes the story more interesting ... the newness of "latest woman driver to take to the track" has faded and she now needs to earn her ride the same way the boys earn their rides. Make car sponsors happy.


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## hookemfins

I think this season may finally start to get interesting. Kyle Busch will be back for the All Star Race and next week for his first points race for the 600. NASCAR granted him the waiver to compete for the championship. He still must win race and be in the top 30 in points. With 30th place last year being 407 (2013 Danica was 30th with 396 points in different system), Kyle must probably average 16th place or better. Tony Stewart is 30th on a pace to reach 423 pts which means Kyle needs 15th place or better.

I think it is going to be tough. His only win last year was California and he didn't run particularly well at the upcoming tracks. 

Either way I'm just glad Kyle is back.


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## James Long

Math from earlier in the thread:


James Long said:


> Kyle received 687 points in the first 26 races last year ... an average of 26 points per race. If he races this year and averages 26 points per race he will need 15 races (including a win) to make the chase. Race 11 is in Kansas on May 9th. Race 12 is Charlotte on May 24th.


Jumping in and performing up to last year's level (plus winning one of 15 races) is not going to be easy. But he has a shot.

Nascar's math:
"Busch would have to average 28.2 points per race -- just better than 16th place, without bonus points for leading a lap -- for the remaining 15 regular-season races. A max-points victory during that span would mean Busch would only have to finish 17th or better in the other 14 events." source


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## hookemfins

Instead of last years pace I used 30th place last year and where Stewart's pace this year is. Its relatively the same within a position. 




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## jimmie57

It will be interesting to see the strategy they use to try and qualify.

Do they go for a win right away and make it, or do they go for a win right away and crash out of it ?

Maybe they will go for points at first and see if they get a win if the opportunity presents itself.


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## hookemfins

To go back to conversation about participation was mentioned during practice this morning by Mike Joy. He said that practice counts as participation. 


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> To go back to conversation about participation was mentioned during practice this morning by Mike Joy. He said that practice counts as participation.


I'd rather see it come from NASCAR ... but they probably will not say anything definitive until someone tests the rule. For example, if an eligible driver practices then sits out qualifying and the race. Chances are the driver would have another reason for the waiver (medical issue, etc.) that wouldn't be simply a choice of not attempting to qualify. The rule from NASCAR is fairly clear:

RULE 17.6.2.1 ELIGIBILITY
a. Unless otherwise authorized by NASCAR, driver(s) and car owner(s) must start all Championship Events of the current season to be eligible for The Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup. If a starting position was not earned, then the driver(s) and car owners(s) must have attempted to Qualify for the Race.

The driver must have attempted to Qualify.


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## hookemfins

If what Joy was indicating, practicing counts as participation and thus attempting to qualify. 

But with the way NASCAR hands out waivers, it probably doesn't matter. 


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> I'd rather see it come from NASCAR ... but they probably will not say anything definitive until someone tests the rule. For example, if an eligible driver practices then sits out qualifying and the race. Chances are the driver would have another reason for the waiver (medical issue, etc.) that wouldn't be simply a choice of not attempting to qualify. The rule from NASCAR is fairly clear:
> 
> RULE 17.6.2.1 ELIGIBILITY
> a. Unless otherwise authorized by NASCAR, driver(s) and car owner(s) must start all Championship Events of the current season to be eligible for The Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup. If a starting position was not earned, then the driver(s) and car owners(s) must have attempted to Qualify for the Race.
> 
> The driver must have attempted to Qualify.


They did. They got the car ready and on the pit road and then it did not crank.
It had ran at least one practice session before the qualifying time on the same day.
Since there were only 43 cars it qualified.


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## James Long

In other news ... Jeff Gordon has a job next year working for Fox Sports in the broadcast booth.
He will work with Mike Joy and Darrell Waltrip.

We managed to get a back flip in (yay Carl). And a couple of drivers picked up P1s for getting warnings two weeks in a row.

Kyle did well his first week back ... but week two put him back in the hole. Now he will have to do better in the races he doesn't win to get to 30th (plus get that win!).

Track walking is back ... with a penalty. JJ Cobb picked up a $5000 bill for walking UP the track and yelling at a driver who wrecked her truck. Trevor Bayne picked up a $20000 bill for walking down the track away from his car before the safety crew got there. I understand that there is less money in truck racing but I felt that JJ's actions were far worse than Trevor's and she deserved a worse penalty than she got. Officials had to restrain her at the ambulance after they arrived.

I believe Kyle got out too early as well ... but it was not clearly shown on TV or caught at the time. He was also on the apron and stayed on the apron. The way Kyle's crash was shown on TV I was not sure that he had got out of the car ... they showed the car on the hook being towed before showing the clip of him getting out. It the clip of him coming out of the window you can see the safety crew vehicle pull up on the outside of his car ... with him out of the vehicle before the crew was out of theirs to tell him to get out. But not reported by Fox and not caught at the time by officials. And a week later "old news".

Moving on ... tomorrow should be fun. Hope your seats at the track are not in turn four.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> They did. They got the car ready and on the pit road and then it did not crank.
> It had ran at least one practice session before the qualifying time on the same day.
> Since there were only 43 cars it qualified.


And since that driver qualified he will run the race. That is what NASCAR really wants.

I'm not sure a real test will occur. We would need a 44 or more car entry field with a driver who is otherwise qualified for the chase miss a race because they did not take a qualifying lap. Brendan Gaughan need not apply ... he is not and will not be "otherwise qualified" (win and top 30). He has only raced six races this year ... did he run a qualifying lap at all of the others? NASCAR has him listed as zero points for the year.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> And since that driver qualified he will run the race. That is what NASCAR really wants.
> 
> I'm not sure a real test will occur. We would need a 44 or more car entry field with a driver who is otherwise qualified for the chase miss a race because they did not take a qualifying lap. Brendan Gaughan need not apply ... he is not and will not be "otherwise qualified" (win and top 30). He has only raced six races this year ... did he run a qualifying lap at all of the others? NASCAR has him listed as zero points for the year.


We had that already when many of the cars did not get on the track in time to make the lap for qualifying. Jeff Gordon and Ricky Stenhouse were 2 of the name of several that I remember. They were assigned starting positions based on the Owners Points after the cars that made an actual run for a sport.

Here is a link to Brendan's stats.
http://www.racing-reference.info/driver/Brendan_Gaughan


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## hookemfins

jimmie57 said:


> We had that already when many of the cars did not get on the track in time to make the lap for qualifying. Jeff Gordon and Ricky Stenhouse were 2 of the name of several that I remember. They were assigned starting positions based on the Owners Points after the cars that made an actual run for a sport.
> 
> Here is a link to Brendan's stats.
> http://www.racing-reference.info/driver/Brendan_Gaughan


Going through qualifying inspection line counts as "attempting to qualify".

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## jimmie57

hookemfins said:


> Going through qualifying inspection line counts as "attempting to qualify".
> 
> Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


Also, think about this. When qualifying is rained out they use the times clocked in the first practice session for the positions. In this case no one actually attemted / ran for a qualifying time.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> We had that already when many of the cars did not get on the track in time to make the lap for qualifying. Jeff Gordon and Ricky Stenhouse were 2 of the name of several that I remember. They were assigned starting positions based on the Owners Points after the cars that made an actual run for a sport.
> 
> Here is a link to Brendan's stats.
> http://www.racing-reference.info/driver/Brendan_Gaughan


So in Brendan's case it is a moot point since he's full time in another series. (I thought he was earning his points in another series, but did not get that deep into the NASCAR.com website last night.) Brendan is not chase eligible.

The drivers who were assigned starting positions based on points or practice speed (when NASCAR makes the decision to cancel qualifying due to extenuating circumstances such as rain) QUALIFIED for the race. They would need to start the race to maintain their eligibility for the chase (except in rare instances).

Qualifying on points throws another wrench into the "otherwise qualified" (chase eligible) scenario. NASCAR does not have to make a decision on whether or not someone who practiced but did not run a qualifying lap is still chase eligible if that driver qualified for the race on points (or less than 44 entries which allowed Brendan to get in to this week's race). One would have to have a car low enough in the standings that they did not qualify on points, in an entry field of 44 or more cars, and not take a qualifying lap to test the "bar bet" scenario. Such a person is unlikely to be "otherwise qualified" (chase eligible) so NASCAR does not have to answer the bar bet question.


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## James Long

After the race:
10 winners (so far) this year (welcome Martin Truex Jr).
Kyle Busch is in 39th place in points (no win yet).
Ryan Newman is in the chase on points (so far) despite the penalty for tampered tires.

At the moment the top 16 in points are also the 16 that are "in the chase".


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## jimmie57

It was very good to see Ryan Truex win yesterday. They have been very strong all year.


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## jimmie57

Wow, Kyle is having a hard time now. If he gets another finish like this his hopes for the chase are done.

What a day we had yesterday. Many stops for rain, crazy pit strategies. Danica went from 34th to 1st from all the people ahead of her making pit stops and her staying out. Then when she pitted she went from 1st to 30th and was 1 lap down. Then from her taking gas only on the last stop she got her lap back and was in 16th ? place where she finished with the rain.
The charts of the race on Yahoo Sports look like my stocks performance this year, spikes of ups and downs. 

Next weekend we only have the trucks and the Xfinity cars as the cup cars are taking the weekend off.


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## James Long

I caught the race on the radio instead of the TV. That was the last Cup race for Fox this year? Set your DVRs for NBC and NBCSN starting July 4th Weekend.

I felt that Kyle's last bad race was his mulligan ... not that he has ever done anything in the chase once he has got there. It looks like his brother gets to be the comeback kid this year. (If it rains at Homestead he'll be good.)


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> I caught the race on the radio instead of the TV. That was the last Cup race for Fox this year? Set your DVRs for NBC and NBCSN starting July 4th Weekend.
> 
> I felt that Kyle's last bad race was his mulligan ... not that he has ever done anything in the chase once he has got there. It looks like his brother gets to be the comeback kid this year. (If it rains at Homestead he'll be good.)


Sonoma is on FS1 the 28th.
Then it switches to NBC / NBCSN.


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## James Long

Ahh ... missed a week on the calendar. NBC has been pushing July 4th weekend so hard it seems like it should be here any minute.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Ahh ... missed a week on the calendar. NBC has been pushing July 4th weekend so hard it seems like it should be here any minute.


Agreed


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## James Long

I wonder how many days of this week on Nascar Radio will be consumed with "Fox Sports 2" talk?

The Xfinity race was bumped to Sunday and to Fox Sports 2 ... some carriers (including Comcast) do not carry FS2. DirecTV has it in "Xtra" (FS 1 in Entertainment). DISH has it in AT250 (FS1 in AT200). I saw a lot of "how dare they put the race on FS2" posts on NASCAR.COM.

Next month (starting with Xfinity July 4th) races move to NBC Sports Network ... on DirecTV in Choice, on DISH in AT200. Better distribution than FS2 but still not as many homes as FS1. Cue the complainers.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> I wonder how many days of this week on Nascar Radio will be consumed with "Fox Sports 2" talk?
> 
> The Xfinity race was bumped to Sunday and to Fox Sports 2 ... some carriers (including Comcast) do not carry FS2. DirecTV has it in "Xtra" (FS 1 in Entertainment). DISH has it in AT250 (FS1 in AT200). I saw a lot of "how dare they put the race on FS2" posts on NASCAR.COM.
> 
> Next month (starting with Xfinity July 4th) races move to NBC Sports Network ... on DirecTV in Choice, on DISH in AT200. Better distribution than FS2 but still not as many homes as FS1. Cue the complainers.


Did you watch it today ?
I think a lot of people had plans and did not return. It only looked like a hundred or so people were in the stands.
It was a good race.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> Did you watch it today ?
> I think a lot of people had plans and did not return. It only looked like a hundred or so people were in the stands.
> It was a good race.


I started watching the recording around 1pm and caught up at the end of the race.
Fortunately I remember the place DISH left the channel (397 is one slot lower than 398 where Fuel was). Some day Fox and DISH might solve all their differences and put the channel in a better location (151 please) and the same package as FS1. At least DISH upgraded it to HD last year. And my manual timer worked (EPG did not get updated).

22 cars "pitting too early" because of a NASCAR official's mistake will be another hot topic. But if the light is on one should not put ... even if NASCAR announces that pit road is open. The light is the final authority. (The "oops, someone bumped a caution light switch" issue with Carl Edwards benefiting was another one where NASCAR ruled that the lights were authoritative.)

It was nice to see Kenseth and his dad at the race. Ross looks a lot like dad ... especially wearing dad's colors and driving dad's car. 6th place is not a bad finish.


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## hookemfins

Congrats to Kyle Busch. Huge, much needed win at Sonoma. 
It will be interesting to see if he runs for more wins or sits tight and just gets top 5s or 10s?



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## James Long

136 points out of 30th with 10 races to the chase? Not impossible. The win is important. A second win would be nice but Busch needs points ... and a bad race because the team gambled on a win instead of points between now through Richmond would not be helpful.

Two wins is not helpful if he's out of the top 30. Another "max points" day would help protect against another bad day ... but how much risk does the team want to take?

He is the 11th winner leaving five slots for "in on points" drivers. It would take six new winners in ten races to threaten to bump a single race winner out of the chase (or failure to maintain top 30). Edwards in 17th place is the closest to 30th above Busch.

Speaking of "in on points" ... Gordon and Newman are in that category. But there are plenty of races to mix up the order.


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## James Long

A comment on last week's pit road mistake by NASCAR --- the light will now be controlled by the tower, but the man with the flag could still miss the radio call. Which means the conflict could still exist if the flagman does not use a flag that matches the light.

"According to one NASCAR official, if for some reason the light and the flag displayed by the official don't match, the flag displayed by the official will indicate the official status of pit road at that time."


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## hookemfins

Here is where math sucks for me. If Ky is 136 points out with 10 to go it means essentially he needs to average 14 points per race to get to 30th. But he needs to average 30 points/race to get to 425 which is still the pace set by Cole Witt. 

I bet Kyle learned his lesson last year at Dega will not ride in the back. 


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> Here is where math sucks for me. If Ky is 136 points out with 10 to go it means essentially he needs to average 14 points per race to get to 30th. But he needs to average 30 points/race to get to 425 which is still the pace set by Cole Witt.
> 
> I bet Kyle learned his lesson last year at Dega will not ride in the back.


Kyle has to average 14 points more per race than 30th place Cole Whitt (and stay ahead of anyone who might knock Cole Whitt out of 30th). Cole has earned 261 points in 16 races ... about 17 points per race. If he keeps up that pace Kyle would need 31 points per race (17+14) to beat Cole. 31 points is 13th with no laps led.

A 10th place average would give Kyle 34 points per race. Anything below 13th would need to be made up by racing better that 13th at another track to keep the average up.


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## hookemfins

Thanks, I understand now. 

I think next week is another wild card race. If Kyle can manage a win or top, he could be in decent shape to make the chase. 


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## James Long

Well - they got the race in.

Congrats to Dale on the win - and the car builders for Austin's survival. Seeing the 3 that torn up at Daytona is never good. Fortunately most of the car ended up staying on the correct side of the fence (especially the engine).

Three fans are injured but at this point in time the injuries are reported as minor. Considering the violence of the wreck NASCAR is fortunate the car was not in the stands and that no photographer or security crew was at that point on the fence.


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## kikkenit2

I recorded 5 hours and got nothing? And Earnhardt won? And a big wreck?
I have to watch this race. Hope on demand works. Or a replay. 
Caught a few laps. All that shows up for a replay is wed morning on csnhd.
Only a 2 hour show. Why did they start this race so late on a sunday night?


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## jimmie57

kikkenit2 said:


> I recorded 5 hours and got nothing? And Earnhardt won? And a big wreck?
> I have to watch this race. Hope on demand works. Or a replay.
> Caught a few laps. All that shows up for a replay is wed morning on csnhd.
> Only a 2 hour show. Why did they start this race so late on a sunday night?


It rained again. 2 days in a row. The race did not start until after 11 pm ET.
I was watching it. Several BIG wrecks in the race. The last one was almost unbelievable.
I would think a replay would be on NBCSN. Did you check there ? I would look but my system is off now.


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## James Long

It was a rain delay ... the race did not start until nearly 11:30pm. 

The drivers need to get on to Kentucky for extra testing (due to a special rules package) and it was easier for NBC and the fans at the track to just get the race done.

"NASCAR 120" from Daytona airs at 2:30pm ET Monday. I do not see any other replay type of program although the crashes are sure to be replayed on NASCAR America and Race Hub.


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## jimmie57

kikkenit2 said:


> I recorded 5 hours and got nothing? And Earnhardt won? And a big wreck?
> I have to watch this race. Hope on demand works. Or a replay.
> Caught a few laps. All that shows up for a replay is wed morning on csnhd.
> Only a 2 hour show. Why did they start this race so late on a sunday night?


Here is a link to a video of the last wreck.
http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/austin-dillon-walks-away-after-car-flies-into-catch-fence-in-violent-last-lap-crash-070615?vid=477793859646


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## hookemfins

kikkenit2 said:


> Why did they start this race so late on a sunday night?


With all the fans that stayed thru the delay plus teams needed to get home Ned turn round for a Wednesday test.

Whenever possible, NASCAR will try to get the race in on the same day.

The reason the race was run on Sunday night was because NBC that time slot. They know that Saturday night the fourth was a bad night for TV.

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## James Long

I agree with running the race ... but 11:40pm to 2:50am isn't "same day" except for west coasters.


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## kikkenit2

I caught the wreck on Race Hub with Trotta! I'll check out the rest on Wednesday.
Good thing dill pickle hit the fence with the bottom of the car. One fence post broke
off, but they probably would have given him a headache on the roof. Junior (and many more)
wants to slow down. Heck the tour of france bike wreck today had more human carnage.
A pic of the fence. And the new track entrance. lol


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## James Long

The crowd cheering during the wreck annoyed me ... hopefully they were thinking "Junior won" and not a bloodthirsty mob. It was better after Junior's crew (and others) gave the thumbs up after checking on Austin ... and after Austin walked away and waved ... but the crowd injuries were still unknown (with Kyle Larson's crash last year the live coverage minimized coverage of the crowd).

I'm glad Junior won ... and that Kyle Busch managed to stay in the top 20 (17th) after his bad day. But life and limb of all at the track are more important than who finished where.

Racing is supposed to be "go fast" so I hate to see speeds reduced ... I hope NASCAR can find a solution to violent wrecks before anyone - racer or fan - is killed.


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## jimmie57

I would like to see them try what they still use at the small dirt tracks today.
Put half of the cars in a heat race that lasts 25% of the laps to be run for that race.
Then run the other half of the cars.
For the final half of the race only the top half of each heat gets to race.

Also, they need to loosen the rules to let the teams have more choices in what they do to the cars. This is mostly caused because of the lack of the ability to pass other cars. If they were allowed to have a different gear ratio in the transmissions and rear ends that would make a difference.
The majority of innovation has come from the racing cars of all different levels. People experimenting for better performance.

I think the cheering was for Dale Jr and not the wreck. The wreck happened faster than you could stop cheering. The crowd was dead silent as soon as the realized what had happened.


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## jimmie57

NBCSN is doing a poor job so far. They have a program that was on yesterday and it was called Nascar 120. Why that title I do not know. It turned out that it was a replay of the Daytona race. It was an edited version. At lap about 105 there was a wreck that took out several cars and that part was totally gone from this program. If I had not watched the race I would not have known why those cars were missing. My girl Danica was in that one also and it is the one that took her out of the race eventually.


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## James Long

Fox edited their replays as well ... on a short race one could get the whole presentation but on a long race there were skips.

"NASCAR 120" is better than nothing ... but putting a three hour plus race in under 2 1/2 hours is tight.


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## hookemfins

Very enjoyable race. With the old package there is no way Kyle catches Joey. I agree with Carl that this package is a step in the right direction.

Kyle is now only 87 points out of 30th. Only needs to gain just 11 points a race to get into the chase. 




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## James Long

Max points is a good way to advance ... and a second win is a lock for anyone in the top 30.

Gibbs has to be happy with a 1-3-4-5 finish (18,11,19,20). I would have preferred a Minion win with a backflip, or Gordon crossing off the only active track he has not beat, but Kyle's return from the dead is a good story line.

Penske 2nd and 6th is good for their team. (Although I feel running over a crew member and knocking a tire out of your pit stall is "removing equipment" - NASCAR disagreed. I doubt not being penalized affected Brad's finish.)

Hendricks powered cars 7-8-9-10 (with Gordon in 7th) is good.

The new package seemed to work ... and a long green flag run at the end of the race is good after the last few races. No "big one" wrecks, just wrecking loose. And a clean race where drivers could have punted others for position but didn't.


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## jimmie57

Wow !
Kyle Bush is on fire. 3 wins already. That was a daring / bold move he made to pass the leaders and get back on the lead lap. That was his winning move for sure.


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## hookemfins

Kyle is en fuego. He's won 3 of last 4 and gained 70 points on 30th place. He just needs pick up 9 points per race by Richmond to make the chase. 

With 3 wins it would be a shame not to make it. 


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## James Long

Oh great ... another week (or more) of "Kyle should be in the chase even if he doesn't end up in the top thirty".


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Oh great ... another week (or more) of "Kyle should be in the chase even if he doesn't end up in the top thirty".


Nope, he has to also make the top 30. He will do that , UNLESS he has a couple of races like he has had already.
It is racing and all things are possible.
That pass he made yesterday while it was spectacular it was almost a huge wreck and might have put him and 2 or 3 other cars out of contention for the win or even out of the race. Today would be a whole different story had that gone wrong.


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## James Long

The "even if" part of the discussion is what I expect will not die. There is a good chance that it will be a moot point ... Kyle will be top 30. It does no good having a what if conversation ... as if NASCAR needs to say now top 30 doesn't matter.

If Kyle is outside after Richmond it will be a good time to talk. But last week (with the what if he wins 3 hypothetical) and this week are too soon. And it would be wrong for NASCAR to guarantee a slot without the top 30.

But I expect to hear the discussion - moot as it is - until the end of the race in Richmond. And howls if Kyle somehow ends up in 31st.


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## hookemfins

It will be discussed by the uninformed or those who always look for exceptions. NASCAR has made it clear Kyle needs to make the top 30 to make the chase. 




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## djlong

Let's face it. Fans have wanted NASCAR to get more exciting. If Kyle got a waiver on the Top 30 requirement, that pass would never have happened. After that first win, there would be no suspense. Nobody would be talking about him until after Richmond.

NASCAR has made a lot of mistakes over the years, but this isn't one of them.


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## James Long

Present company excepted, but I have found that I like the racing more than the fans.

There are certain groups of fans that seem to want to play "what if" and in the process drag down the sport instead of playing "what is" and sticking with reality.

"What if a driver that doesn't make it to the chase wins three chase races in a row? They should be added to the chase." NO. They didn't qualify, they don't get in the chase. Championships are awarded to drivers who excelled the whole season long, made the chase and beat the other drivers in the chase format. There is enough manipulation to "tighten things up" without a lot of "what if" additions.


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## jimmie57

I thought the Xfinity race today at Indy was very good. Lots of passing.
One thing I noticed is that with both series using this same package the cars of each series are almost the same speeds by just about 4 mph.


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## hookemfins

I thought it was probably one of the best Brickyard 400's. Passing for the lead was still difficult but the leader never had a big lead. The top 4 stayed within a couple of seconds. 

I thought coming into the season that Kyle and Adam would be great together, especially with similarly with the Busch cars. 
Just imagine where Kyle had he been around for all 20 races? 


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## James Long

I have not watched the race yet but caught the end of the radio broadcast (after the race finished) and the next three hours of SiriusXM talking about it.

There were still people pushing for Kyle to immediately be put in the chase ... regardless of top 30. There seems to be a fear that Kyle will have one or more bad races and he somehow will not make 30th. There were also a couple of callers upset that Kyle got the waiver allowing him to attempt to qualify after missing the first few races ... but most of the callers were supportive of Kyle and his attempt - and the SiriusXM host (Brad Gillie) seemed to be directing the audience toward "if he qualifies, he qualifies - if he can't make 30th place so be it" with a generally positive spin toward "he's going to make 30th - it is possible to fail, but he's going to make it".

I'll have to watch the race when I get a chance. It sounds like the drivers did NOT like the package and it did not work well but there is still hope for Michigan when it is used again. It is a shame that NASCAR has to experiment in live races.

But Kyle stole the day: Four wins in five races, overshadowing his own weekend sweep at Indy. The first Indy win for Toyota at the last track where they did not have a win. A lot of positive story lines.


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## jimmie57

It was a very good race. Lots of passing. The package worked just like they wanted it to.
Kyle does not want an exemption from having to make the top 30 in points, he wants to make it. He is on a roll like Tony did that year, just barely made it on points and then ran up 5 wins in a row to take the championship.


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## hookemfins

Yes there was lots of passing but not for the lead. Had there been no late cautions it would have been interesting to see if Kyle could have caught Harvick. 


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## hookemfins

Figures Windows was the sponsor; lots of crashes, reboots, sputtering & restarts. 

Only really interesting part was the fuel mileage after the last set of pit stops. 


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## jimmie57

hookemfins said:


> Figures Windows was the sponsor; lots of crashes, reboots, sputtering & restarts.
> 
> Only really interesting part was the fuel mileage after the last set of pit stops.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


Lots of passing, crashing and blowing up for sure. Even tried to knock down the pit wall and did knock down a pit crew in a separate incident.
They were all pressing the gas estimates. Danica's chief told her to run hard that they are all running out of gas in front of her. She then ran out on the end of the lap 159, dived into the pit for a splash of gas and still finished 16th.


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## James Long

I listened to the race on SiriusXM Driver2Crew with Kyle Busch.

Kyle was talking about a "record number of cautions" after halfway in the race ... and when they came in for the final green flag stop his crew chief said they would catch Joey at the next caution. Which never came. Even with all the cars running out of gas no one got a caution for it.

JGR managed to play all three strategies ... stay out near the front (Kyle), come in and get gas (Carl) and hang back and see what happens (Matt). Fortunately Matt was able to hang back after passing Jimmie Johnson and resist the urge to pass more people.

Joe Gibbs winning streak continues ... perhaps Carl will take him to Victory Lane next week.


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## hookemfins

When Kyle came for his final pit stop I thought that he came in one lap early.


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## 4HiMarks

If there had been just one caution during those last 38 laps, everyone would have been good. With all the cars blowing up and running into each other, its a miracle no one dropped any "debris" on the track.


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## hookemfins

4HiMarks said:


> If there had been just one caution during those last 38 laps, everyone would have been good. With all the cars blowing up and running into each other, its a miracle no one dropped any "debris" on the track.


Probably but had there been one late or causing a GWC, those who ran out still would have run out if gas.

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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> Probably but had there been one late or causing a GWC, those who ran out still would have run out if gas.


They would have needed a long caution to save enough for a GWC. Fortunately everyone got out of the way ... but I was expecting Joey and Kyle to lose to a GWC instead of the race remaining green and have them lose to simple fuel mileage.

Based on recent races, the "what if" machine predicts: If there was a caution with ten to go Joey and Kyle (teams) would have had to make the choice to come in or stay out. If they came in they would have to hope that many behind them followed and they didn't have too may lead lap cars staying out. If they stayed out they would have to hope that many behind them also stayed out ... but what we have seen is a few cars behind the leader someone says "new tires is the only way I can catch them" and perhaps 10 cars back everyone on the lead lap pits. While a good caution would have given Joey and Kyle enough laps to finish without running out the caution would have also allowed others to change tires and catch up.

The "what if" machine is a Magic 8 Ball ... if the race would have ended differently it would have ended differently, That much is for sure.


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## James Long

Dear NBC Sports

We are aware that the chase is considered NASCAR's playoffs. Please stop beating us over the head with the word "playoffs". We call it "the chase". We realize that this is your first chase coverage where you get to carry the races ... but the assumption that your audience is stupid and doesn't understand what the chase is needs to be toned down.

Thanks!

In other news ... has everyone in NASCAR forgotten Ryan Newman's math? For a driver to make it into the "Contender Round" of twelve drivers they do not need to win a race. At least nine drivers will make it out of the current "Challenger Round" without a race win. In simple terms, it will not be a miracle if Harvick or now Boyer make the cutoff. All they have to do is beat four of the 16 drivers in the chase over three races.

Look at each level of the chase like the way today's qualifying was run. A first round where 24 drivers advance. A driver does NOT have to be the #1 driver in round one to advance ... only one of the top 24. Then there was a second round where 12 drivers advance. A driver does NOT have to be the #1 driver in round two to advance ... only better than half of the top 24. In the final round the 12 drivers set the order. That is where being #1 wins the driver a pole position and an excellent pit stall.

In the chase all a driver has to do is enough to make it into the next round. Yes, a win is max points and an instant ticket to the next round but the most common way to progress is to beat four drivers.


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## jimmie57

I wrote to Nascar and NBCSN and explained to them that there were 43 cars in the race and not just 16, How about show us those drivers once in a while during the races.

I also would like to see the leader on the first row by himself. They won the pole and beat everyone to do it, start first. Same thing with cautions. They are usually way ahead of the rest of the cars, start them in row 1 and everyone else behind.
Along with that, do away with the start box. If the Green flag does not start the race it is worthless. I would like to see the lead car start the race when the green flag is waived, period.

If a driver is caught with an illegal car after the race, disqualify them, period.


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## James Long

Another weekend of NBC promoting "The Chase for the NASCAR Sprint Cup Playoffs". They say it as if it were one word.

I listened to the race on SiriusXM today and (for some strange reason) an advertisement for the NBCSN coverage played throughout the race until at least 9pm worded as if the race was not in progress or over. The commercials used the word playoffs without the word chase but only mentioned "chase" in the full phrase.

So I came home, turned on the TV and NBCSN is showing "Victory Lap" ... and they keep saying the complete phrase.

I miss ESPN.


Congrats to Joe Gibbs Racing. Unfortunately Harvick is demonstrating that it is easier to eliminate oneself than win.

Breaking News: Tony Stewart's last year driving will be 2016.


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## James Long

What a brilliant idea ... "one" attempt at a green-white-checkered. :nono:

I listened to the race live on the radio then watched most of it after I got home. From the radio call I was glad than NASCAR "called off" the first attempt at the only green-white-checkered. I felt that crashing coming to green would be a lousy way to end the race. I was right ... I just had to wait a few more caution laps for the second attempt at the only green-white-checkered to have another crash occur as the green flag waived.

And this is why NASCAR limited the race to *ONE* attempt at a green-white-checkered ... knowing that multiple attempts just leads to multiple wrecks worse than the one before. But they didn't listen to their own advice.

On a restart the LEADER starts the race. The pace car pulls off the track, the race cars continue on at a cautious pace until the LEADER enters the restart box. At some point of the leader's choosing while in that restart box the LEADER accelerates and starts the race. If the leader fails to accelerate the race begins as the leader leaves the box. NOT when the leader crosses the start-finish line. Drivers are not allowed to change lanes before the start finish lines but they are allowed to pass.

The leader does not have to be the first car to the start-finish line. And if cars drop out of line on the restart (not maintaining speed) they can be passed without penalty (as long as the passing car does not change to the other lane). This is how restarts have been since the box was introduced. No BS "the race didn't start because the cars didn't cross the start-finish line".

Kyle Petty and Dale Jarrett got it right in post race coverage ... they have never seen NASCAR declare a restart a non-start.

With three attempts at a green-white-checkered the first attempt Sunday night would have counted as the first GWC attempt. But with NASCAR saying there would only be one attempt they put themselves in the position of redefining what an attempt was. "It doesn't count until the leader crosses the start-finish line" is a new rule.

The second problem with the first attempt was Kevin Harvick. He failed to maintain speed and dropped back and then out of line to where cars behind him in the outside line passed him. When the wreck occurred NASCAR gave him back his original position. In previous races "failing to maintain speed while under caution" led to drivers losing positions on the track. Following the rules Harvick should have lost positions on the first attempt and not been where he was on the second attempt.

NASCAR blew it.

The second problem was the speed at which caution was called. On the first attempt it seemed that caution was put back out as soon as the first car got sideways. On the second attempt NASCAR waited longer. The race was determined (and moving on to the next chase stage) based on the second that they put out the caution. A second or two later and Earnhardt would have passed Logano. Had the put it out as fast as they did with the first restart attempt the leaders may not have been past the start-finish line.

Umpires sometimes blow a call. It is an unfortunate part of sports. This time NASCAR blew it.

They cannot rewind time and guess what position Harvick would have finished in had they CORRECTLY taken away positions on the first attempt for failing to maintain speed. But they should at least be honest with their fans and admit the error.


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## jimmie57

I think Kevin was watching the 20 in his mirror and was moving up to block him from going around on the outside and that is why he did not see the 6 was in the way. That wreck also moved Tony and Danica back many spots. Danica was in 18th and finished in 27th. I don't remember where Tony was before the wreck. It was a crappy finish for sure.

Dale drove a masterful race while on the track, not so good in the pit stops.


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## hookemfins

I listened to race on my way home from Dolphins game. Got in just in time to see the debacle unfold.

I agree that attempt one wasn't an attempt. However, seeing that Harvick wasn't up to speed and hazard on a SS, he should have been put at the back of the field for the second attempt. He did try to wreck the 6 to make sure he advanced.

I applaud NASCAR for not fixing the race in favor of Jr but they blew the Harvick side of it. I just heard Moody on TMD and he said that if they didn't penalize Newman last year for admitting that he wrecked Larson on purpose they won't penalize Harvick. I say two totally different situations. Newman was trying to advance a spot with an equally fast car as Larson. Harvick had a crippled car and did whatever it took to cripple those behind him so he could advance. 

I should not be listening to super speedway races on the radio in my car. I tend to drive like i'm on the track. :grin:


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## James Long

Newman's move affected one car for one position. Not the entire outcome of the race. The chase position Newman earned was also affected ... but that is part of racing and giving 100% to advance your own position.

Harvick's, if intentional, effectively ended the race and affected the entire field including the leaders. It was more than him replacing one driver in the standings. The scale is much larger.

That being said ... I do not believe Harvick intended to wreck the field. He should have pulled up and faded (the way he eventually did on the cancelled restart). But he waited until he was passed and was not clear for a move to the outside. Biffle did the right thing by pitting when he knew he was out of fuel instead of dying in front of the field. Harvick did not.

Karma will get him.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> *Newman's move affected one car for one position. Not the entire outcome of the race.* The chase position Newman earned was also affected ... but that is part of racing and giving 100% to advance your own position.
> 
> Harvick's, if intentional, effectively ended the race and affected the entire field including the leaders. It was more than him replacing one driver in the standings. The scale is much larger.
> 
> That being said ... I do not believe Harvick intended to wreck the field. He should have pulled up and faded (the way he eventually did on the cancelled restart). But he waited until he was passed and was not clear for a move to the outside. Biffle did the right thing by pitting when he knew he was out of fuel instead of dying in front of the field. Harvick did not.
> 
> Karma will get him.


Is a thief that steals 100 dollars less of a thief than one that steals a thousand dollars ? To me, they are both a thief.
That said, I still do not think he wrecked the 6 intentionally. I think he was trying to block the 20 and was looking in the mirror instead of beside him.


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## hookemfins

jimmie57 said:


> Is a thief that steals 100 dollars less of a thief than one that steals a thousand dollars ? To me, they are both a thief.
> That said, I still do not think he wrecked the 6 intentionally. I think he was trying to block the 20 and was looking in the mirror instead of beside him.


Yes, there is a difference. Racing hard for a position is acceptable. Driving in a crippled car and wrecking someone to not lose positions is wrong. Harvick is the thief.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> That being said ... I do not believe Harvick intended to wreck the field. He should have pulled up and faded (the way he eventually did on the cancelled restart). But he waited until he was passed and was not clear for a move to the outside. Biffle did the right thing by pitting when he knew he was out of fuel instead of dying in front of the field. Harvick did not.


I do think Harvick's motives were intentional. He is snake, a bully and dirty driver. I have little respect for him.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> To me, they are both a thief.


To me Newman was a thief, Harvick was a murderer. Newman stole a position for himself - both in the race and chase standings. Which is basically what he was hired to do an what NASCAR asks the drivers to do every race. Race hard. Harvick ended the race.

There is definitely a difference in scale. The only defense for Harvick is "oops". If it wasn't an accident then it is much more serious than moving one car for position.


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## scooper

Jeff Gordon Won Martinsville !!! On to Homestead.

However - Matt Kenseth - No attempt at being subtle - he was clearly gunning for Joey Logano.


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## James Long

The tire must have gone flat from all that damage from the wreck with Brad. Yeah, that's the ticket. 
Hopefully people will not forget the winner because of the other stuff. Penalties Tuesday?


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## jimmie57

scooper said:


> Jeff Gordon Won Martinsville !!! On to Homestead.
> 
> However - Matt Kenseth - No attempt at being subtle - he was clearly gunning for Joey Logano.


I believe Matt was too, but, I have looked at it many times and Matt did not go up after him. Joey tried to cut in front of him and was not clear. Of course if Joey had of cleared him Matt would have ran into the wall full speed.
It looked like the 2 car took Matt out on purpose at first. Then after watching it several times you can see that the 2 car was getting help from behind from both of the cars behind him and they may have caused the 2 car to get into Matt.
Like one of the interviewers said, Joey took out Matt and then the 2 car took out Matt today just felt a little bit to suspicious that both the Penske cars took him out in a 3 weeks span.

Even my girl Danica had enough of the 38 car running into the back of her today. he has done that numerous times in the past.

Very glad that Jeff won and gets to compete at Homestead for the trophy.


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## James Long

Matt could have avoided the incident but I can understand why he didn't try to avoid contact. The "normal" path of Joey's car would be to cut to the inside to go around the corner. Matt made sure that he was there.

The "nine laps down" issue is what will probably get Matt in trouble. Not racing for position or even to stay on the lead lap but far enough down that the pass didn't matter. (He was in 34th place at the time of the wreck and finished in 38th.)

Of course, Matt was nine laps down because they were still working on his car after the incident where Brad hit him twice. It was Logano, Keselowski, Kenseth, Kurt Busch and Gordon with 66 laps to go. The next incident was the next time Logano passed Kenseth on the track.

In Matt's favor ... it was a two car accident (not wadding up the entire field) and it was handled on the track under green (not on pit lane or on a caution lap). Everyone walked away and no fisticuffs were reported (although Tom Logano might have been interested). While ramming 3300 pound cars into each other can never be 100% safe, I get tired of the slap fights and shoving matches after the race.

Is it Matt's duty to avoid hitting a car that turns down in front of him? We'll find out on Tuesday.

Joey still has two chances to win and advance ... so does Brad. Their performance today makes a win their best chance of advancing. Matt didn't take Joey out of the chase - but he did make it harder for Joey to advance on points.

Is this good for the sport? I'll say yes. The roar of the crowd was not booing.

Last week's wad up by Kevin Harvick got non-NASCAR sports shows talking about NASCAR. NASCAR wants raw emotions ... they instruct the drivers to have at it. Racing doesn't mean that you let a two car team that has ruined your season put you 10 laps down without trying to hold position. While Kyle Petty said on the post-race show that people will be laughing at NASCAR tomorrow it is sure that they will be talking about NASCAR tomorrow ... and tuning in next week for Texas (where I am sure previous year fight footage will be used to promote the race).


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## hookemfins

Matt had to react when he did because had Joey won a race because any impacts would have been mealiness. Also by wrecking Joey now the 20 still has two opportunities to win a race to get to Homestead.

I think the penalty should be similar to what Jeff Gordon received for wrecking Bowyer which was $100,000 and 25 points. I didn't see the Danica's incident with the #38 but she also may receive some sort of penalty. 

Danica has a big problem with thinking every incident is against her. Her only concern should be improving which she really hasn't done. She is still an also ran in every race, non factor.


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## jimmie57

hookemfins said:


> Matt had to react when he did because had Joey won a race because any impacts would have been mealiness. Also by wrecking Joey now the 20 still has two opportunities to win a race to get to Homestead.
> 
> I think the penalty should be similar to what Jeff Gordon received for wrecking Bowyer which was $100,000 and 25 points. I didn't see the Danica's incident with the #38 but she also may receive some sort of penalty.
> 
> Danica has a big problem with thinking every incident is against her. Her only concern should be improving which she really hasn't done. She is still an also ran in every race, non factor.


The 38 has ran into the back of Danica at least 3 times in the last couple of years. He was heard to say on one of the previous incidents " That will teach her to get in front of me". This time the 38 ran into the back of her and did not lift until she was in the wall.
She does need lesson on how to pay them back and not wreck herself. He paybacks are more of a ladies slapping a man in the face.


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## James Long

One of the problems with Brad when he first started in Cup was that he didn't know how to take a hit. Carl Edward's bumps would have been trivial had Brad been a better driver. He has learned ... and Danica needs to learn how to rub and be rubbed while racing. NASCAR can be a contact sport.

I missed what she did Sunday. Too much focus on Matt and (appropriately) on Jeff Gordon. Back marker cars wrecking each other is barely worth noticing as long as they stay out of the way of the leaders.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> One of the problems with Brad when he first started in Cup was that he didn't know how to take a hit. Carl Edward's bumps would have been trivial had Brad been a better driver. He has learned ... and Danica needs to learn how to rub and be rubbed while racing. NASCAR can be a contact sport.
> 
> I missed what she did Sunday. Too much focus on Matt and (appropriately) on Jeff Gordon. Back marker cars wrecking each other is barely worth noticing as long as they stay out of the way of the leaders.


There is a video on Fox Sports that shows him pushing her into the wall like he has done to her in the past and then her attempt at getting him back.

http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/danica-patrick-david-gilliland-martinsville-speedway-wreck-feud-sprint-cup-stewart-haas-110115


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## hookemfins

She can't even wreck someone properly.


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## hookemfins

Matt Kenseth gets a two race suspension once again exposing the inconsistencies in NASCAR's penalties. When Carl came back on to the track just to dumped Brad, at a much more dangerous track, NASCAR gave Carl a slap on the wrist. Even Carl was surprised he didn't get parked for a race. Danica laying in wait to get back at the #38 was just as bad. 

I hope the penalty gets reduced to a hefty fine and points.


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## jimmie57

hookemfins said:


> She can't even wreck someone properly.


She has been working hard to not get into wrecks because they called her Crashica that I think her hands and feet won't let her do it right. She needs some lessons from Jeff and Matt to put that 38 where he belongs.


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> Matt Kenseth gets a two race suspension once again exposing the inconsistencies in NASCAR's penalties. When Carl came back on to the track just to dumped Brad, at a much more dangerous track, NASCAR gave Carl a slap on the wrist. Even Carl was surprised he didn't get parked for a race. Danica laying in wait to get back at the #38 was just as bad.
> 
> I hope the penalty gets reduced to a hefty fine and points.


NASCAR increased the penalties because Logano was the leader of the race and still eligible in the Chase. The current chase format requires drivers to have three decent races or a win. The closer one gets to Homestead the less "Mulligan" races can be overcome.

Matt didn't sit in the garage for half an hour then return for the "kill" ... he was nine laps down because that is where "Team Penske" put Matt in the restart wreck. The second place car blocking the entire inside lane until the leader passed in turn one. It worked a few times ... the last time it didn't. The line moved, Brad refused and got punted. Was what Brad and Joey doing giving 100%? When the inside leader refuses to GO on a restart to allow another car to pass is that giving 100%? It is as bad as Boyer's itch to stack the field.

Matt managed to clock two laps after the restart wreck. He went out for the next restart then came back into the pit and they worked on his car more. Then he made one more lap before Joey caught him. There were mechanical defects on Matt's car. I believe NASCAR made too much of the "nine laps down" and too much of the comments after previous races.

One thing we have learned is DON'T SAY ANYTHING. After Kansas and Talladega don't threaten. "Just good hard racing."

One recent incident that is also being used as an example is where Gordon wrecked Boyer at Phoenix in 2012. That ended the chase for Boyer and gave Gordon a 25 point penalty. Joey still has a chance to win this year's championship yet the guy who wrecked him is getting a much worse penalty.

So - where is the line NASCAR? The "taking out a chase participant when leading a chase race when you're laps down is wrong" rule written specifically for Matt? Not good.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> NASCAR increased the penalties because Logano was the leader of the race and still eligible in the Chase. The current chase format requires drivers to have three decent races or a win. The closer one gets to Homestead the less "Mulligan" races can be overcome.
> 
> Matt didn't sit in the garage for half an hour then return for the "kill" ... he was nine laps down because that is where "Team Penske" put Matt in the restart wreck. The second place car blocking the entire inside lane until the leader passed in turn one. It worked a few times ... the last time it didn't. The line moved, Brad refused and got punted. Was what Brad and Joey doing giving 100%? When the inside leader refuses to GO on a restart to allow another car to pass is that giving 100%? It is as bad as Boyer's itch to stack the field.


I understand and don't agree with that philosophy. Wrecking someone when one is multi laps down should be treated the same, regardless of the circumstances. I just heard Brian France on with Moody and heard him worm his way out of explaining their side. 

Carl was nearly 100 laps down when he spun out Brad at a high speed track of Atlanta when he came back on the track with the sole purpose (and he admitted it) of wrecking Brad. In Pheonix Gordon waited on the track to wreck Bowyer because of earlier contact that resulted in cutting down one of Gordon's tires. That one ruined any chance Bowyer had of winning the championship.

Based on those two incidents and the fact that Joey ruined Matt's title hopes in Kansas which caused Matt to retaliate in Marty, NASCAR continues to show lack of penalty consistency. My hope is the penalty gets overturned tomorrow, Then NASCAR will put in the rule book: IF a driver is multiple laps down and retaliates than he/she shall be parked immediately and suspended for 2 races. Since that rule isn't in the books, all Matt can react off is past punishment.

Brian France was almost applauding the move Joey made in Kansas. If Joey's car was faster than why couldn't he find away around Matt without wrecking him?It can be done. Joey was impatient. The job of the leader in the final laps is to keep everyone behind you. Second place needs to find away to pass without wrecking.


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> I understand and don't agree with that philosophy. Wrecking someone when one is multi laps down should be treated the same, regardless of the circumstances.


There needs to be a line. Matt was nine out of eleven laps down when he wrecked Joey. Obviously Brian France thinks that it is OK to wreck a car that is on the same lap (congratulating Joey for hard racing). Is one lap down too many? How about two? Any number seems arbitrary.

Moving a car out of your way to pass seems to be acceptable ... wrecking a car to pass should not be. Even if both cars are on the same lap. Otherwise wad up the field after every white flag if wrecking is racing. If NASCAR is going to write a rule that allows Joey style wrecking but not Matt style wrecking it shouldn't be based on an arbitrary number of laps.



hookemfins said:


> ... NASCAR continues to show lack of penalty consistency. My hope is the penalty gets overturned tomorrow, ...


I agree. Penalties should be clearly spelled out and fair. Joey still has a decent chance of advancing. Matt did not end his chase.



hookemfins said:


> Brian France was almost applauding the move Joey made in Kansas. If Joey's car was faster than why couldn't he find away around Matt without wrecking him? It can be done. Joey was impatient. The job of the leader in the final laps is to keep everyone behind you. Second place needs to find away to pass without wrecking.


I agree. But NASCAR did not see fit to penalize Joey. (Not that any penalty would have mattered since he had a win. Even parking him for Talledega would not have stopped him from advancing.)


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> Joey still has a decent chance of advancing. Matt did not end his chase.


There's the difference. Matt was left with one race, a wild card race, to go to the next round. Joey still has two chances (although Texas is his best bet).



jimmie57 said:


> She has been working hard to not get into wrecks because they called her Crashica that I think her hands and feet won't let her do it right. She needs some lessons from Jeff and Matt to put that 38 where he belongs.


But if at Homestead she goes into Crashica mode and causes a yellow, she'll be affecting the championship outcome. All by taking a bump or hit too personally.


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## James Long

James Long said:


> Joey still has a decent chance of advancing. Matt did not end his chase.





hookemfins said:


> There's the difference. Matt was left with one race, a wild card race, to go to the next round. Joey still has two chances (although Texas is his best bet).


I believe you misread my post. I meant "Matt did not end Joey's chase."

I'm watching Race Hub from this evening and practically the whole show is on the Kenseth penalty issue. Including playing Brian France clips from after Kansas (congratulating Joey) and earlier today (backpedaling). Chad Kaunas on the show (an expert in fighting NASCAR penalties) among others and a general feel that NASCAR went too far.

One fact that was pointed out was that NASCAR has never suspended a driver for a wreck under green. The previous sanctions have been for wrecking under caution (when drivers are not prepared to be hit and safety workers may be present). We will see what the appeals panel says tomorrow ... but I'll be surprised if there is not a reduction.


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## TXD16

When Kenseth wrecked Logano, he was instantly and quite deservedly the most popular guy at the track and, likely, in all of NASCAR at that very moment. Logano has shown himself to be a talented, but immensely arrogant, driver, not too unlike Kyle Busch (who seems to have learned his lesson) just a few short years ago. I have no doubt that the lesson taught by Professor Kenseth will be well-heeded by the neophyte Logano as although he is young, he is not stupid.

Of course, a huge side benefit of Logano's schooling at the hands of Professor Kenseth is that Jeff Gordon is now in a prime position to actually retire from the sport as a reigning champion, and that's one awesome possibility.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> I believe you misread my post. I meant "Matt did not end Joey's chase."


I didn't misread it just added that Joey didn't end Matt's chase either. Matt still had Dega to move on to the final 8.


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## jimmie57

Yesterday after the announcement of Matt's penalty being upheld I deleted all of the next 2 weeks recordings of the Nascar events. I will not watch it until they put Matt back into his car. Nascar is stupid to see that 73% disagree with the penalty. I am just 1 person but if enough people get ad and do not watch then they will see what they have done to the fans along with Matt and his team.


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## James Long

Tributes to Gordon ...













Sorry Jeff ... the kids know about the ponies. You can't give them back. 
(The 24 is on the back of the Big Hoss TV.)


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## hookemfins

I hope Joey was watching the way Jimmy passed Brad for the lead without wrecking!

Other than from the last restart, most of the race was so so.


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## James Long

I have not seen the race yet ... four fall Texas races in a row for Johnson? It is a shame it doesn't count toward the chase for him.

Next week Kyle needs to finish 19th or 20th plus a lap or 21st plus the most laps to make the final four. (Other's drivers results will likely lower that bar - but worst case scenario 19th and no laps and he is in.)

Next week Harvick needs to finish 18th or 19th plus a lap or 20th plus the most laps.

Truex depends on who wins ... if Kyle or Harvick or an eliminated driver wins 16th is good enough.

The others are at the mercy of the field ... Win to advance, 2nd place will only advance Edwards, Brad or Kurt if Kyle, Harvick or Truex fail. Joey cannot advance on points ... he MUST win to advance.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> I have not seen the race yet ... four fall Texas races in a row for Johnson? It is a shame it doesn't count toward the chase for him.
> 
> Next week Kyle needs to finish 19th or 20th plus a lap or 21st plus the most laps to make the final four. (Other's drivers results will likely lower that bar - but worst case scenario 19th and no laps and he is in.)
> 
> Next week Harvick needs to finish 18th or 19th plus a lap or 20th plus the most laps.
> 
> Truex depends on who wins ... if Kyle or Harvick or an eliminated driver wins 16th is good enough.
> 
> The others are at the mercy of the field ... Win to advance, 2nd place will only advance Edwards, Brad or Kurt if Kyle, Harvick or Truex fail. Joey cannot advance on points ... he MUST win to advance.


Below are the scenarios for clinching:



> #24-Jeff Gordon Advanced
> #18-Kyle Busch will clinch with a finish of 3rd or better; 4th and at least one lap led; or 5th and most laps led.
> #4-Kevin Harvick will clinch with a finish of 2nd or better; 3rd and at least one lap led; or 4th and most laps led.
> #78-Martin Truex Jr., #19-Carl Edwards, #2-Brad Keselowski, #41-Kurt Busch and #22-Joey Logano only control their own destiny with a victory. Logano can ONLY make it to the Championship Round with a win at Phoenix.
> 
> Phoenix Championship Clinch Scenarios


I can't figure out why Kyle only needs 3rd or better? I'm assuming it is based on if Carl, Brad, Kurt or Joey wins than Kyle, Kevin or Martin will fight for the remaining 2 spots. Kyle leads Martin by 4 points and Kevin by 1. A 3rd place finish by, no laps led, would give him 41 points. If Martin gets 2nd and leads the most laps he'll get 44 points. Kyle would still hold a 1 point advantage. Kyle also holds the win tiebreaker over both. If Harvick or Truex wins than his next lowest in points is Carl where Kyle would have to finish 11th or better if Carl led the most laps and finished 2nd.

Based on all that, I figure Kyle would need to finish 4th or better because of the amount of wins tiebreaker.


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## James Long

I had an error copying a formula. 2nd for Harvick and 3rd for Kyle are more accurate.

I believe the tiebreaker is best finish in each round. So far Kyle has a 4th and 5th, If Kyle does not finish 3rd he does not win a tiebreaker against Harvick (3rd and 8th so far).

Current
5000 Jeff Gordon
4080 Kyle Busch
4079 Kevin Harvick
4076 Martin Truex, Jr
4069 Carl Edwards
4057 Brad Keselowski
4048 Kurt Busch
4013 Joey Logano

If the winner is one of the bottom four the man to beat is Truex. The best Truex can do without winning is 44 points or a total of 4120 points. To beat Truex Kyle needs 41 points (the award for 3rd place). But the math gets more complicated.

Say Truex gets 44 points (42 for 2nd place plus most laps led). Nobody else can get 2nd or most laps led if Truex gets that. So we are looking at two winners and two other slots ... Truex at 4120 and either Kyle or Harvick. The best Harvick could do without winning if Truex gets 44 points is third and at least one lap or 42 points. Truex at 4120 and Harvick at 4121. Kyle still has to beat 4120 which he can do by getting 4th (40 points) plus one lap led.

Say Truex gets 44 points and Kyle takes third instead of Harvick. Third with no laps led is 41 points and enough to beat Truex regardless of what Harvick does. Harvick takes 4th with a lap and ends up with 41 points (4120 total) and Kyle beats both of them.

Say Kyle gets fifth and leads the most laps. 5th is 39 points plus two bonus leads to a grand total of 4121. Truex can't beat that (he can get 2nd and a lap led but only one car can lead the most laps). Harvick can beat that - if he ends up with second and one lap led (43) Harvick ends up with 4182 points and Harvick and Kyle advance.

Once Kyle finishes below 41 points (4121 total) there are plenty of scenarios where he can be beaten. Which is why he controls his own destiny by finishing 3rd, 4th with a lap or 5th with the most laps. A non-chaser win makes it easier but that isn't controlling one's own destiny. If Harvick or Truex wins Kyle has to beat Edwards + 44 points (4113) ... easier than what has already been mentioned.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> Kyle still has to beat 4120 which he can do by getting 4th (40 points) plus one lap led.


That's what I dispute. If in your scenario, Truex gets 44 points to 4120 and Kyle get 4th 40 points with no laps led, both would have 4120 and Kyle wins on tiebreaker because he has the most wins. In fact, if Kyle ties any driver, with exception of Joey since he has to win, Kyle wins by having the most wins. 
If one of the bottom 4 driver wins and there is a 3 way tie between Harvick, Truex and Kyle than Harvick and Kyle advance by virtue of more wins than Truex.

In any of the scenarios the wins tiebreaker seems to ignored.


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> That's what I dispute. If in your scenario, Truex gets 44 points to 4120 and Kyle get 4th 40 points with no laps led, both would have 4120 and Kyle wins on tiebreaker because he has the most wins. In fact, if Kyle ties any driver, with exception of Joey since he has to win, Kyle wins by having the most wins.
> If one of the bottom 4 driver wins and there is a 3 way tie between Harvick, Truex and Kyle than Harvick and Kyle advance by virtue of more wins than Truex.
> 
> In any of the scenarios the wins tiebreaker seems to ignored.


There is not a tiebreaker on wins. The tiebreaker is best finish in each round.

So far Kyle's best finish in this round is 4th ... Kevin's is 3rd ... Martin's is 6th. The only way for Martin to tie Kyle in points is to finish ahead of Kyle.

The worst case for Kyle is Martin finishing 2nd with the most laps led and a lower chaser winning the race. That is the scenario Kyle has to beat. Beating that number is how Kyle "controls his own destiny".

Martin finishing 2nd with the most laps is 4120. Kyle in 4th place is 40 points - tied at 4120. The tiebreaker goes to Martin because he now has the best finish in this round. Kyle must have 41 points.

Kyle can advance by tying with Martin as long as Martin does not finish higher than 4th. 4th for Martin with the most laps led is 4117 points, Kyle ties that with 6th place and no laps. The tie goes to Kyle because he finished 4th and 5th in this round and Martin's best would be 4th and 6th. But that is not Kyle controlling his own destiny.

Go back to the coverage of Jr beating McMurray out of the Challenger round. Jr won the tiebreaker by having the best finish of 3rd where McMurray's best was 4th. The coverage explains the tiebreaker. It wasn't because Jr won twice earlier in the year ... it was because he was better in that round of the chase.


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## hookemfins

James Long said:


> There is not a tiebreaker on wins. The tiebreaker is best finish in each round.


In the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna "Nevermind"

I thought regular season wins carried over and I thought that's why Jr advanced over Jamie.

Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## James Long

hookemfins said:


> In the words of Roseanne Roseannadanna "Nevermind"
> 
> I thought regular season wins carried over and I thought that's why Jr advanced over Jamie.


You're not the only one. 

Phoenix gets an average of 8 inches of rain each year ... it rains an average of 36 days each year. NASCAR brings the rain. 

The race got started. Fresh track, night race. Another wildcard.


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## James Long

Sigh ... a rain shortened race. Carl was live on air at the end of an interview when the race was called and he was eliminated from the final four. Fortunately off the mic.

The start rule was specifically mentioned in the Drivers Meeting. On the initial start the lead driver must be first to the start/finish line. On restarts the second driver can pass (the leader gets to start the race in the restart box).

Penske out. That should make some fans happy ... both were booed in driver intros. (Drivers would rather be booed than ignored.) Perhaps if the race restarted Joey could have passed a couple of cars and won his way in. But perhaps is in the land of IFs and BUTs.

Jeff, Kevin, Kyle and Martin. Should be an interesting race next week.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> Sigh ... a rain shortened race. Carl was live on air at the end of an interview when the race was called and he was eliminated from the final four. Fortunately off the mic.
> 
> The start rule was specifically mentioned in the Drivers Meeting. On the initial start the lead driver must be first to the start/finish line. On restarts the second driver can pass (the leader gets to start the race in the restart box).
> 
> Penske out. That should make some fans happy ... both were booed in driver intros. (Drivers would rather be booed than ignored.) Perhaps if the race restarted Joey could have passed a couple of cars and won his way in. But perhaps is in the land of IFs and BUTs.
> 
> Jeff, Kevin, Kyle and Martin. Should be an interesting race next week.


I have written to Nascar a couple of times to no avail. To avoid these start and restart problems the leader should be in front in the first position and the rest of the cars line up 2 x2 after him. This would stop this stuff.
Also if they would increase the speed of the last caution lap to half of a normal lap speed the cars could not jump out of line and advance as fast as they do lots of times.

Oh well, a rain shortened race is certainly different than the action of the last several weeks.


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## hookemfins

jimmie57 said:


> I have written to Nascar a couple of times to no avail. To avoid these start and restart problems the leader should be in front in the first position and the rest of the cars line up 2 x2 after him. This would stop this stuff.
> Also if they would increase the speed of the last caution lap to half of a normal lap speed the cars could not jump out of line and advance as fast as they do lots of times.
> 
> Oh well, a rain shortened race is certainly different than the action of the last several weeks.


The problem I have with your restart option is with the leader starting ahead of the pack. It is bad enough with how restarts are now where the leader gets a jump and gets the clear air advantage. I would do the opposite. They line 2x2 and flagman starts everything. Fastest to the gas and into turn 1 gets the lead. I prefer a free for all. Once lined up, flag waved and everyone is off.

The final four is very interesting field. Jeff Gordon won in 2013 but his win was in a fuel mileage race. Kyle was leading and dominating but the way the pit strategy fell it left him finishing 7th. Unfortunately Kyle he isn't very consistent at Homestead but in a winner take all format just may change his luck. Harvick is easily the best at Homestead with Gordon slightly behind Truex.

I think Harvick is better with this years particular package on 1.5 mile tracks. Kyle is just a different driver this year since coming back. Just may push the chase demeans away.

My order of finish: 1) Kyle (just goes for it and a different driver this year) 2) Harvick 3) Truex 4) Gordon


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## James Long

The other guys can try again next year ... Drive for Five.


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## jimmie57

hookemfins said:


> The problem I have with your restart option is with the leader starting ahead of the pack. It is bad enough with how restarts are now where the leader gets a jump and gets the clear air advantage. I would do the opposite. They line 2x2 and *flagman starts everything. Fastest to the gas and into turn 1 gets the lead. * I prefer a free for all. Once lined up, flag waved and everyone is off.
> 
> The final four is very interesting field. Jeff Gordon won in 2013 but his win was in a fuel mileage race. Kyle was leading and dominating but the way the pit strategy fell it left him finishing 7th. Unfortunately Kyle he isn't very consistent at Homestead but in a winner take all format just may change his luck. Harvick is easily the best at Homestead with Gordon slightly behind Truex.
> 
> I think Harvick is better with this years particular package on 1.5 mile tracks. Kyle is just a different driver this year since coming back. Just may push the chase demeans away.
> 
> My order of finish: 1) Kyle (just goes for it and a different driver this year) 2) Harvick 3) Truex 4) Gordon


I have written them about the Green Flag starting the race and Restarts and as you say the fastest on the gas gets the lead.


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## James Long

NASCAR just needs to be consistent with their rules. This was the third time this year that the 2nd place car beat the pole position car to the start line at the beginning of the race - but the first time it was called. I understand the concept of the leader being first across the line - but calling a penalty on less than a car length seems petty (and not the good Petty).

Restarts are so messed up that perhaps NASCAR shouldn't have them. Race to the first caution then the race is over. If the drivers can't figure out how to restart without a controversy NASCAR should not have restarts.


As long as there is racing someone will take advantage of the rules. Whether it is a leader who goes before the box or before the green flag and jumps the start or a leader who stacks the field by going as late as possible or a second place car that gets the timing a little bit off in order to have a run on the leader. Someone is going to "cheat".

The best thing that can happen is it never being an issue again ... no more races with a controversial restart. That is in the hands of the drivers to drive fair and NASCAR to be consistent in their calls.

Winning or losing a race or the championship should not come down to a call by NASCAR.


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## jimmie57

James Long said:


> NASCAR just needs to be consistent with their rules. This was the third time this year that the 2nd place car beat the pole position car to the start line at the beginning of the race - but the first time it was called. I understand the concept of the leader being first across the line - but calling a penalty on less than a car length seems petty (and not the good Petty).
> 
> Restarts are so messed up that perhaps NASCAR shouldn't have them. Race to the first caution then the race is over. If the drivers can't figure out how to restart without a controversy NASCAR should not have restarts.
> 
> 
> As long as there is racing someone will take advantage of the rules. Whether it is a leader who goes before the box or before the green flag and jumps the start or a leader who stacks the field by going as late as possible or a second place car that gets the timing a little bit off in order to have a run on the leader. Someone is going to "cheat".
> 
> The best thing that can happen is it never being an issue again ... no more races with a controversial restart. That is in the hands of the drivers to drive fair and NASCAR to be consistent in their calls.
> 
> *Winning or losing a race or the championship should not come down to a call by NASCAR.*


Then you could have drivers speed down pit road and not get penalized because they were in the running for the chase.

The pass thru penalty is too severe. The driver that jumped , in this case, Kurt, should have had to slow down and let the leader by him and then the race is on.
If I remember correctly that is what the rule used to be.


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## hookemfins

jimmie57 said:


> Then you could have drivers speed down pit road and not get penalized because they were in the running for the chase.
> 
> The pass thru penalty is too severe. The driver that jumped , in this case, Kurt, should have had to slow down and let the leader by him and then the race is on.
> If I remember correctly that is what the rule used to be.


The procedure is to slow down and let the first place car take the lead back. I did miss the beginning of the race so I don't know how much time passed between Kurt taking the lead and posting him? But had he slowed down to give JJ the lead than there would have been no penalty.


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## James Long

jimmie57 said:


> Then you could have drivers speed down pit road and not get penalized because they were in the running for the chase.


I did not say throw out the rule book for chase drivers. 
Speeding on pit road is not a judgement call. It is a electronics call. Teams barely ever complain about such penalties because they know they are enforced equally. The same goes for the electronic pit road monitoring introduced this year. Review the tape ... yep, the crew member's foot landed before the car was two boxes away ... penalty accepted.



jimmie57 said:


> The pass thru penalty is too severe. The driver that jumped , in this case, Kurt, should have had to slow down and let the leader by him and then the race is on.
> If I remember correctly that is what the rule used to be.


The "give it back" procedure was up to the driver. For a time the penalty was not called if the driver "gave it back" after jumping a restart. If one waited long enough for NASCAR to call the penalty there was no giving it back.

I'm not sure NASCAR recognizes "give it back" any more. Brad thought he gave it back after a jump earlier this year but he was still penalized. Perhaps if he had not immediately taken the lead after "giving it back" he may have missed the penalty.

While video replays make such calls more technology based they are still judgement calls.


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## scooper

My heart is saying "Drive for Five", but realistically, performance based, Harvick or Busch look to have the best chance.


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## jimmie57

I just noticed that they are showing a special Hot Pass of the race today on NBCSN 220 and it is devoted to the 4 in the chase with different cameras and angles, etc. from my quick read. I am going to record it and the NBC broadcast.


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## James Long

After the rain extended re-race I almost feel sorry for anyone who doesn't like Jeff Gordon.
I am glad they finally got the race started.


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## James Long

Hmmmm ... the other Rainbow Warrior won. (Taste the rainbow.)

That will work. Looking forward to seeing Jeff on the air next year.


I watched the Hot Pass a couple times but kept going back to the NBC feed for the commentary. I like the way SiriusXM does their driver channels ... the normal MRN/PRN feed interrupted by Driver2Crew communication. The "hosted" four driver HotPass seemed to miss too much of the race.


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## hookemfins

Congrats to Kyle Busch on the Homestead win and for the Sprint Cup Championship.

I was at the races this weekend. With out a doubt year after year Homestead-Miami provides one of the best races each season and today was no exception. I thought the season as a whole was mediocre at best but today more than made up for it.


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## jimmie57

That was a very good race. I did not like the last caution for that plastic water bottle in front of the flag man. I think Kyle Larson would have caught and passed the leader to win the race.
Still, after all Kyle Bush has been thru this year it was good for him to win. He is a very different person this year than last year.


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## jimmie57

I recorded the race on NBC and the Hot Pass thing on NBCSN. I definitely did not like the Hot Pass one for TV. For me I think that having the regular show on the TV and maybe the Hot Pass or similar on ones computer with just 1 driver on it might work well.

I actually run Twitter on my laptop while the race is on. I have found a couple of groups that usually they have at least 1 member at the race track while others are on one of the feeds that you can choose your driver and hear them, the spotter and the crew chief. They post information that the TV does not show during the race like what they are doing on a pit stop for your driver.
Danica went into the pits once in position 18 and the next thing I knew she was in 29th. On twitter they posted that she had a member of the pit crew over the wall too soon and was penalized for that. Without Twitter on I would have never known why the 10 spot difference happened.


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## hookemfins

RIP Barney Hall. A legendary voice that will be missed dearly. He was the voice of NASCAR. 


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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