# Who does NOT subscribe local OTA but gets guide data?



## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

Before I discontinue with the Dish locals (and since there are still no release notes) who has now got 215 and does NOT sunscribe to dish locals AND now gets OTA guide data?. I want to cancel the locals package but still want OTA guide data.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Here, have never subscribed to LIL. I would expect you to keep the OTA guide but can't say for sure.


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## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

BobaBird said:


> Here, have never subscribed to LIL. I would expect you to keep the OTA guide but can't say for sure.


Does that mean that you do not sunscribe but DO get ota data using L215?


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## cleblanc (Dec 18, 2003)

I would be very hesitant to cancel the satellite locals. I just lost all my OTA guide data. All I get is 'Local Programming' now whereas up until 215 I was getting my EPG info from the Hartford, CT locals. I just called Dish to report the problem and they are so clueless. He had me reset to factory defaults. I had told him how I rescanned all the locals when I was missing my EPG info but it still didn't help. I have rescanned my locals 3 times and rebooted several times and I STILL don't get guide data. I want 213 back.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

TonyB, yes that's what I mean.


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## seadoo (May 28, 2004)

cleblanc said:


> I would be very hesitant to cancel the satellite locals. I just lost all my OTA guide data. All I get is 'Local Programming' now whereas up until 215 I was getting my EPG info from the Hartford, CT locals. I just called Dish to report the problem and they are so clueless. He had me reset to factory defaults. I had told him how I rescanned all the locals when I was missing my EPG info but it still didn't help. I have rescanned my locals 3 times and rebooted several times and I STILL don't get guide data. I want 213 back.


Same here. Would like to know how to get these back. Please post if anyone knows how to do this.


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## mwsmith2 (Nov 15, 2004)

I'm in Houston, TX. I've never subscribed to locals. I get EPG data now that I didn't have before. It's not for all channnels, but the majors are there. Some even have the show recap in the information. HD subchannels do not show any info.

Michael


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## bnam (Nov 25, 2004)

I don't subscribe to locals bu have started getting info for practically all the OTA channels I am tuned into (even those that are out of the area). Some sub channels did not have info as of last night, but there was no pattern I could discern -- I do get info for most of the HD channels.
B


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

I started getting local guide info yesterday with the L215 download. I don't suscribe to Dish locals. I'm getting CBS, ABC, NBC, WB, and an independent station's guides. I'm not getting PBS (which I understand, since the local station uses the PBS-HD national feed). I didn't check the PBS subchannel showing the local programming, but I bet it's there. I also don't get FOX guide info, since I can't get the FOX station OTA yet (won't be full-power until November, now!). For some reason, I don't get UPN, either.

I HOPE that this is permanant, and not some mistake that they will "correct!" This really adds a LOT to the usability of the 921.

Brad


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## dishbacker (Jun 15, 2004)

As stated in the other threads... always make sure to give 24 hours for guide data to populate before running off and complaining that it is not working...


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## cleblanc (Dec 18, 2003)

dishbacker said:


> As stated in the other threads... always make sure to give 24 hours for guide data to populate before running off and complaining that it is not working...


I waited til this morning before saying it doesn't work. I would think that should be sufficient as I would expect most updates to happen overnight. I am especially frustrated that people who didn't get guide data before are now getting it and that it happened right away. I wouldn't expect that guide data should be taken away from those that already had it. How is this being done? Is anybody else in CT receiving guide data? Do you need to unsubscribe to Hartford locals to receive it?


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## dishbacker (Jun 15, 2004)

I saw Allen post in another thread to go, delete and rescan the OTA-HD channels and then do a switch check to force a Guide Download... never tried it myself...


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## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

Based on responses I have just dumped the locals - now we will see what happens.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

What I discovered after L2.15 is guide info from dishnetwork (not the PSIP from digital stations) apeared at 7634 -7637 which are the Rochester NY locals for ABC, NBC, CBS & Fox (superdish 121 required). They show up as red because I don't subscribe but at least I can read the the guide info if the guide mode is set to All-Chan. I don't have the info mirrored to any of the actual analog or digital channel slots. Also no PBS in the 7634-7637 range.

To all those that are receiving guide info please explain where it is appearing. In the analog or digital channel slots (or both) between 002-069 or somewhere else because I'm only now seeing guide info in the 76XX area? 

Also do you have analog channels disabled or enabled in your preferrences?

Are you still getting guide info when in All-Sub mode?

One more thing is anybody seeing guide info in the high channel range and does not have L215 because I've never seen the dish locals there before when I was in All-Chan mode.


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

dishbacker said:


> I saw Allen post in another thread to go, delete and rescan the OTA-HD channels and then do a switch check to force a Guide Download... never tried it myself...


I tried what Allen suggested. No help, some OTA guide data still not there. I have done power boots, plug boots, card boots, check switches, add OTA trough a scan, add them manually, checked the off air box, unchecked the off air box and every combination I could come up with.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

lapplegate said:


> I tried what Allen suggested. No help, some OTA guide data still not there. I have done power boots, plug boots, card boots, check switches, add OTA trough a scan, add them manually, checked the off air box, unchecked the off air box and every combination I could come up with.


Power boots is all that necessary unless the power button is not responding which only leaves plug boot method. Don't reseat your smart card unless you absolutely have to because it can damage the reader contacts.

Question do the OTA channel that are not present appear in the high range (a number above 700) of the guide? Also is it WB, UPN, Fox or PBS channel?


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## langlin (Apr 8, 2005)

There is some real information missing in all this communication since L215 spooled, I lost all guide data and I subscribe to dish locals.
I have also done power boots, plug boots, check switches, add OTA trough a scan, add them manually, checked the off air box, unchecked the off air box and every combination I could come up with and nothing helps. We need someone that understands this software to explain what is happening.


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## langlin (Apr 8, 2005)

jergenf said:


> Power boots is all that necessary unless the power button is not responding which only leaves plug boot method. Don't reseat your smart card unless you absolutely have to because it can damage the reader contacts.
> 
> Question do the OTA channel that are not present appear in the high range (a number above 700) of the guide? Also is it WB, UPN, Fox or PBS channel?


 My answer is yes to all, they are all present in the high range and they are NBC and PBS.


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

jergenf said:


> Power boots is all that necessary unless the power button is not responding which only leaves plug boot method. Don't reseat your smart card unless you absolutely have to because it can damage the reader contacts.
> 
> Question do the OTA channel that are not present appear in the high range (a number above 700) of the guide? Also is it WB, UPN, Fox or PBS channel?


The missing data channels appear in the guide in the correct mapped location. 03-01 (NBC) 15-01 (PBS) & 68-01 (KET). The dish local channel numbers are in the 9090 - 9100 range.


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## bbomar (Oct 18, 2004)

lapplegate said:


> The missing data channels appear in the guide in the correct mapped location. 03-01 (NBC) 15-01 (PBS) & 68-01 (KET). The dish local channel numbers are in the 9090 - 9100 range.


Do you have guide data for 11, 32, 34, 41, 58? If so, what you are saying
is that you lost guide data for 3, 15, and 68 with L2.13 and it has not
been fixed by L2.15, right?


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

bbomar said:


> Do you have guide data for 11, 32, 34, 41, 58? If so, what you are saying
> is that you lost guide data for 3, 15, and 68 with L2.13 and it has not
> been fixed by L2.15, right?


bbomar,

That is exactly correct. All other locals are fine. 211 I got ZSRs on channel 11. 212 fixed that and all channels got the data. 213 caused channels 3, 15 & 68 to stop getting guide data. 215 has made no change to that, still no guide data on 3, 15 & 68. Of course none of the sub channels ever did have data.

I sure miss the good old days of 212.
Thanks,
Larry


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## bbomar (Oct 18, 2004)

lapplegate said:


> bbomar,
> 
> That is exactly correct. All other locals are fine. 211 I got ZSRs on channel 11. 212 fixed that and all channels got the data. 213 caused channels 3, 15 & 68 to stop getting guide data. 215 has made no change to that, still no guide data on 3, 15 & 68. Of course none of the sub channels ever did have data.
> 
> ...


Strange - I've seen a couple of other posts where folks lost guide data on
an NBC station with L2.13. I thought L2.13 was supposed to just fix a
daylight savings time problem.

PBS stations are very iffy on guide data. I get nothing for the Huntsville, AL
PBS station (APT). I also don't get guide data on a couple of Nashville
stations that broadcast digitally but are not carried by Dish.

Since 3, 15 & 68 are carried on the satellite, I assume you have guide data
on the satellite channel? If so, then there must be some problem in the
software that connects the OTA station with the corresponding satellite
station.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

OK, I did get the upgrade to L215 today. I saw it begin to load at about 2AM this morning. The notice in the upgrade was to put the 921 in standby and L215 would load when I turned it on again. I just shut the 921 off at 5AM and went to bed. A few minutes ago I turned the 921 on expecting to see L215 and it was their.

Nor for the first report-
All my locals OTA channels are populated in the guide. That's new! Yes, I do NOT subscribe to locals. So while some here chose to sub to channels to get guide info, it looks like those of us who refused to do that get the guide info anyway with L215. This is the way it should be! About time E* did the right thing! I will be sending my insider contact a thankyou as we did have quite an argument about this back in January. He promised to let the program decision makers know of my mal content with their decision and I guess it has been reversed. I seriously doubt this was a mistake but hopefully everyone will get proper guide data without the need to pay for it and if you do pay, it will work too but you only pay for the analog channels and not just to have guide data.

Now for some specifics-

All my channels are populated out to the full guide future with the following exceptions:
No data for any subchannels on any of the stations.
No data for one religious station on their -1 channel but then they do not publish to the guide service anyway so I would not expect to see any guide on that channel. Don't have it on any of the other receivers either.


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## Eagles (Dec 31, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> OK, I did get the upgrade to L215 today. I saw it begin to load at about 2AM this morning. The notice in the upgrade was to put the 921 in standby and L215 would load when I turned it on again. I just shut the 921 off at 5AM and went to bed. A few minutes ago I turned the 921 on expecting to see L215 and it was their.
> 
> Nor for the first report-
> All my locals OTA channels are populated in the guide. That's new! Yes, I do NOT subscribe to locals. So while some here chose to sub to channels to get guide info, it looks like those of us who refused to do that get the guide info anyway with L215. This is the way it should be! About time E* did the right thing! I will be sending my insider contact a thankyou as we did have quite an argument about this back in January. He promised to let the program decision makers know of my mal content with their decision and I guess it has been reversed. I seriously doubt this was a mistake but hopefully everyone will get proper guide data without the need to pay for it and if you do pay, it will work too but you only pay for the analog channels and not just to have guide data.
> ...


Don, Do you receive any non-DMA OTA's? If so is there guide data?


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Eagles said:


> Don, Do you receive any non-DMA OTA's? If so is there guide data?


No non-DMA signals here.


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## IamtheEggman (Sep 21, 2004)

I don't subscribe to locals, don't get guide info on my lcoals before or after I got 215


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## Jason Kragt (Dec 20, 2002)

IamtheEggman said:


> I don't subscribe to locals, don't get guide info on my lcoals before or after I got 215


I've got you beat!  I DO subscribe to locals, but I DON'T get guide info for three of them (WZZM-DT 13-1, WGVK-DT 52-1 and WZPX-DT 43-1). I can sort of understand why I don't get guide data for WGVK and WZPX. Neither of those stations are retransmitted by Dish. However, I don't understand why I don't get any guide data for WZZM since it IS retransmitted by Dish as our primary ABC affiliate.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

Jason Kragt said:


> I've got you beat!  I DO subscribe to locals, but I DON'T get guide info for three of them (WZZM-DT 13-1, WGVK-DT 52-1 and WZPX-DT 43-1). I can sort of understand why I don't get guide data for WGVK and WZPX. Neither of those stations are retransmitted by Dish. However, I don't understand why I don't get any guide data for WZZM since it IS retransmitted by Dish as our primary ABC affiliate.


I also do subscribe to the E* locals and I also do not get the guide data for the local ABC (KOAT) station. I can understand about the other station, our local PBS station because the DT station and the analog station broadcast different items. There is still something wrong with the way E* is sending (or not sending) the information down to the local digital stations.


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## madbrain (Dec 10, 2004)

The upgrade wasn't smooth. I found the 921 in the middle of a 24-hour recording that couldn't be cancelled . It wiped out my entire hard drive !
The thing was still on L213.

I did a hard reboot. It upgraded to L215 finally. Now I have the guide data for about 20 of the 30 or so digital subchannels in the San Francisco and San Jose area !


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## KKlare (Sep 24, 2004)

lujan said:


> I also do subscribe to the E* locals and I also do not get the guide data for the local ABC (KOAT) station. I can understand about the other station, our local PBS station because the DT station and the analog station broadcast different items. There is still something wrong with the way E* is sending (or not sending) the information down to the local digital stations.


KOAT used to have Eastern/Central time HD on 7.1 and Mountain SD on 7.2 & 7.0. They switched months ago to Mountain HD on 7.1 and sold space to OTA cable on 21.2 and 21.3. Boohoo, reduced bandwidth but as it is 720p it probably was not in use. Dish has 21.2 showing same guide as 8810/7.0. It should be mapped to 7.1 instead.

KNME 5.0 broadcasts SD on 5.2/35.2 as many other PBS stations do. 5.1 is the National PBS HD. Why can't Dish give us a guide to that one-time-zone-for-all programming? ? ?

Note KNMD is on 9.1 to 9.4 with PBS Kids E/W and PBS-U and another. I would like a quality (at least 1/4 channel) digital of the analog 5.0.

Hope KOB 4 will be up to power soon. They appear to be testing 4.2 for colorbar/SD-same-as-HD/whatever. I have not seen the radar.

All my observations and not confirmed.

-Ken


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

Just an update on my local guide info (I am not a subscriber to LIL, Kansas City DMA):

I checked the "All Channels" list, and only five of my locals are shown there (in red). The FOX, PBS, PAX, and UPN affiliates are missing from the list. Not surprisingly, those stations are also missing from my OTA guide data. FOX, of course, is missing for another reason, also - I can't receive it! The only stations with subchannels (PAX and PBS) are missing, so I can't comment on subchannel listings.

I would also like to thank DISH, as Don has, for finally doing the right thing. With any luck, in the next release the other stations will be added.

Brad


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

I can see my locals in the76XX range of the guide as red but none of this is remapped to the OTA section. This means I can't use the guide to schedule events and the guide must be in All-Chan mode to even read the info in the high range.
NEW update: PBS (WXXI) was discovered in the guide (as channel 7640) on July 4th after I rebooted it. Only the main info is reported not any of the subchannels. This completes 5 out of 5 of the major Rochester NY channels.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

I neve subscribed to LIL's. Since 215 loaded I got my local program data for most stations in my DMA: ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, UPN, and Univision*. I did not get data for either PBS (both carry PBS HD on -01 one carries the "main" channel on -02 while the other carries something totally different on -02 and does not send a digital version on their "main" channel - so I can see where mirroring the data might not work).

An interesting side-affect: Several weeks ago I was able to "lock and acquire" an OOM station from Pittsburgh. I kept the station (WPXI-DT) in my guide. I got data for that station! Two other OOM's from Youngstown WFMJ and WYTV (which are closer and received more frequently) did not get data (these stations are availale on Superdish so perhaps that is why the guide data is missing).

* MY Univision channel is on 61.5. At the time that 215 downloaded I did not have a dish set-up at 61.5, yet I still got the guide data.


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## Eagles (Dec 31, 2003)

> Michael P said:
> 
> 
> > An interesting side-affect: Several weeks ago I was able to "lock and acquire" an OOM station from Pittsburgh. I kept the station (WPXI-DT) in my guide. I got data for that station! Two other OOM's from Youngstown WFMJ and WYTV (which are closer and received more frequently) did not get data (these stations are availale on Superdish so perhaps that is why the guide data is missing).
> ...


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Baltimore is on Superdish, perhaps that is why nobody sees those stations in their 921 EPG under 215. It would make sense since the Youngstown locals are also on Superdish and I could not see their data, while I could see Pittsburgh's data from here in Cleveland.


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## Eagles (Dec 31, 2003)

> Michael P said:
> 
> 
> > Baltimore is on Superdish, perhaps that is why nobody sees those stations in their 921 EPG under 215. It would make sense since the Youngstown locals are also on Superdish and I could not see their data, while I could see Pittsburgh's data from here in Cleveland.
> ...


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I received a specific answer just now to this issue. I will not quote the response directly but will sum it up this way-

The reason why those who did not sub to locals are receiving guide data is it is a mistake. In this case, it is a mistake they made that is of benefit to some. The root cause for this error is that the intent was to allow some users to receive out of DMA market guide data if they first have subscribed to their locals in their DMA. So, as I read this I see it as an attempt to give those who subscribed to locals additional features, out of DMA guide as well. There was no intent to give those who did not pay for locals to receive guide data for free, either in or out of DMA.

OK, I did respond to this unfortunate answer this way:

_If the guide data is pulled from those currently getting it, there will be quite a few angry 921 users out there. Echostar needs to do the right thing for a change and just enable it for all. As we spoke of in the past, the best way to do this and still encourage your paid service is to permit whatever PSIP is being sent by the local stations to appear in the guide. That may only be the 12 hour FCC regulated minimum but then encourage any 921 user who wishes the full guide data to pay for it by subscribing to locals from Dishnetwork. In my mind, this would be a fair compromise. I hope you consider passing along this suggestion as a workable solution. _

What will happen now is probably not certain and I guess the powers at E* are furious with the screwup. Can you imaging what would happen if some coders screwed up and unlocked all the Pay per views with a software upgrade? LOL! 
I guess that if the worst happens, E* will issue a new release, maybe L216, that will fix the problem and all of us without paid locals subscriptions will lose the guide data, i.e. like before L215. 
At best we all should just get it and they will only fix the DMA mess. But maybe a compromise like I suggested will happen. I'm sure nobody knows today what will happen. It is probably why Mark is so quiet on this release. he isn't saying anything because nobody knows what to tell him yet. Let's just hang in there and support Mark's silence at this time. He will tell us what's going on when he is ready.

On the humorous side of this is that maybe fate was playing its fair hand and the error was just meant to happen to show E* the right thing. Open it up for all to have!  If you get the channel you get the guide!


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Eagles said:


> > I was led to believe that all the EPG info is streamed from the 110 slot. Can anyone confirm.
> 
> 
> I believe each satellite location contains their own EPG streams. I know someone who only has 61.5 (using it for Greek channels) and they have an EPG. Also back in 1998 I originally only had 119 and got an EPG. Secondly when I recently added 61.5 to my new superdish 121 lineup my EPG increased in size.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I'd tell you everything that I know, if I knew anything... Allen and I have both been going back and forth with Eldon at length over some of the issues, but we don't have any answers for any of this yet.

But, like the 811, now that the cat's out of the bag, I don't see E* taking away the guide data from anyone that has it now in future releases, screwup or not.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Thanks, Mark. It is what I suspected.

Still some exchanges from my end ongoing.

Just to be clear on this- While I did say that there will be many angry 921 users if the mistaken guide data is removed. We all should understand the E* mindset on this. That is, E* is supplying a value added service in that guide data. They have a right to pull it back off since they probably view it like someone did mistakenly code on a subscription service and then they will pull it off.

This is where my head is at. I don't disagree with E*'s desire to sell a value added Guide data service such as the TMS guide. That is their business and our business whether to buy it or not.
What I disagree with is E*'s failure to supply a regulated PSIP guide data from our locals sent as part of an FCC regulated ATSC signal. Now understand the huge differences here:
With the guide service from E* that you pay $5.99 a month for, you get a full populated program guide out to two weeks all at once and it stays populated for 2 weeks into the future if everything is going to plan. With PSIP, the FCC requirement is that the data only be 12 hours into the future. But also understand that in order to see the PSIP data, one must tune to the channel first and let the PSIP stream populate the guide out to a minimum of 12 hours, more if they voluntarily send it. This means that you will not have the PSIP guide complete in a grid guide form for browsing. However it will populate if you manually tune to each of the stations. Therefore the "value added" in the concept of paying for the guide data as a service from E*. 

So if some of you felt that PSIP is a direct substitute for the TMS guide data we now have, guess again. IT is a free cut down version. It follows the saying- You get what you pay for. But some, like me, may feel that we don't need the fancy service to pay for it. The cut down free guide PSIP, may work well enough.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

My thoughts are if they include a digital OTA tuner in the receiver in order to increase your HD lineup they might as well include the EPG since any standalone digital tuner can obtain that feature from the PSIP stream. 

If the 12 hour limit of PSIP creates various interfacing problems with their software because perhaps the OTA tuner is often in use or because of different data formats that stations might use, then why shouldn't supply the TMS guide instead (if they have it). Even if a customer isn't paying for locals there no reason not to include them into the EPG stream since they're already providing it for the paying customers and since they're not providing by the PSIP method.

Right now I'm able to see my local guide info in the 76XX range of the guide which shows up as red because I do not subscribe. The same can be said for many international channels which are red when in All-Chan mode. Although it would be really nice if they could remap my locals to the actual OTA section so I can use the guide to schedule events. Or do they want $6 a month for that?. I'm still happy I now have the ability to at least obtain the program information from them. I hope I don't loose that.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> So if some of you felt that PSIP is a direct substitute for the TMS guide data we now have, guess again. IT is a free cut down version. It follows the saying- You get what you pay for. But some, like me, may feel that we don't need the fancy service to pay for it. The cut down free guide PSIP, may work well enough.


I agree with what you say up to a point, Don. We are already paying a monthly "DVR fee." What, exactly, does that fee entitle us to, if not _*guide data for all receivable channels*_? And, following your logic, if a value-added fee should be paid for local guide data, shouldn't it be less than the $5.99 LIL fee if the subscriber has no interest in actually _*watching*_ the LIL's? They've already shown us that the LIL's can be in red in the "All Sub" guide and still populate into the OTA guide, so the cat's out of that bag already.

You're absolutely correct that they should now "do the right thing" and leave things as they are. For the relatively small number of 921 users (and an even smaller number of 921 users who don't subscribe to LIL's), this could create an enormous amount of goodwill for E*. 

Brad


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## mwsmith2 (Nov 15, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> If you get the channel you get the guide!


What an amazing concept! :eek2: We all understand it here, it's too bad that E* doesn't. Knowing how little they actually care about customers, and their general utter lack of good will, i'm counting the days until the next "EMERGENCY" release which will remove the guide data. :nono:

I wouldn't put it past 'em. 

Michael


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"And, following your logic, if a value-added fee should be paid for local guide data, shouldn't it be less than the $5.99 LIL fee if the subscriber has no interest in actually watching the LIL's?"_

Let's get one thing straight- It's not my logic. It's E*'s concept / logic that the local guides for programs you receive OTA be tied to whether you paid for the LIL service ($5.99) or not. All I'm asking is that E* program the 921 so that it does NOT filter out the PSIP guide data required by the FCC from appearing on those channels that are received outside the service supplied by E*. I really have no problem if E* wishes to supply a fancier version of what is required by law and sell it for whatever they can convince you all to pay! 
Some of you recall I've been against this since it was first announced back on 12/5/04 and stick to what I said back then. Some of you all don't feel that way and will kiss E*'s greedy backside if they tell you to. It's the same with D* and their NFLST surcharge for HDTV. Some people will pay it and others won't. I don't expect E* to "give away" anything. But, if they take away what is lawfully ours to encourage us to pay for something else, then this is wrong. E* has had the same amount of time to implement PSIP guide data as everyone else has. IT may be a programming nightmare for DVR makers to implement and I accept their claim that it is. But, TIVO stepped up to the bat and supplied the data from the service. TIVO charges for this service and they include the guides on one channel as well as all the rest. I agree that E* charges a similar TIVO like fee called a DVR fee but then they add to that additional fee to receive this guide data. It's their logic, not mine.

If they do pull the guide service away and fail to implement the PSIP guides that were required as of 2/1/05 then we're back to complaining about this practice to the FCC. And, yes, the FCC wants to hear about this because they have stated so.


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

I am in SC and in the Sav. Ga DMA I do not get locals from dish (on 105) and no OTA EPG I also get several chs from Charleston SC (105 ) no EPG, 2 ch from Columbia SC (105) 
I just picked up 4-1 12-1 and 25-1 from Jax Fl (110) I just did a reboot and now have the EPG from all three stations from Jax. Fl
I do not have a dish on 105 just dish 500 
It seem like the OTA EPG I get is tied to what sat the locals are on.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

oljim said:


> I am in SC and in the Sav. Ga DMA I do not get locals from dish (on 105) and no OTA EPG I also get several chs from Charleston SC (105 ) no EPG, 2 ch from Columbia SC (105)
> I just picked up 4-1 12-1 and 25-1 from Jax Fl (110) I just did a reboot and now have the EPG from all three stations from Jax. Fl
> I do not have a dish on 105 just dish 500
> It seem like the OTA EPG I get is tied to what sat the locals are on.


So - 
Baltimore, Youngstown, Savannah and Charleston all on 105 = no guide
Jacksonville, Pittsburgh, DC, Cleveland all on 110 or 119 = guide

I think it's safe to say that the guide data for locals are indeed tied to the satellite that they are delivered on.

If anyone out there has a Superdish and can confirm that they do get the guide data for DMA's on the Superdish on their 921, please let us know.

(Chances are the only ones with Superdishes sub to their own DMA's locals. I hope someone can actually get an OOM signal OTA that is carried on Superdish to do this confirmation)


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

> The root cause for this error is that the intent was to allow some users to receive out of DMA market guide data if they first have subscribed to their locals in their DMA. So, as I read this I see it as an attempt to give those who subscribed to locals additional features, out of DMA guide as well. There was no intent to give those who did not pay for locals to receive guide data for free, either in or out of DMA.


 :grrr:
Before I do a meltdown, can there be an independent confirmation that this is indeed a "mistake"?

Those of us who are "charter subscribers" who had to do without satellite-delivered networks in the early years should not have to be forced to subscribe to our locals. A few of us are fortunate to be able to receive a superior picture OTA (analog and digital). FWIW the satellite-delivered LIL's are inferrior to OTA. And it's not just the stations that happen tohave their towers in my backyard - I was able to watch digital signals from 56 miles away (Youngstown) and occasionally from 100 miles away (Pittsburgh). So unless you live in a valley or live too far from the nearest transmitter, you should be able to get your broadcast stations OTA.

The concept of LIL's is a good thing, except for the fact that they are overcompressed. There is a potential for severe digital "artifacting" on pictures with high movement. MPEG-2 is a "lossy" format. Watching a football game in a blizzard will show you just how bad it can get.

What would you rather have, the uncompressed OTA signal or the compressed LIL?

Don't get me wrong. If you live too far away or have terrestrial obstructions to getting a good OTA signal then LIL's are for you. Just don't make me buy them for the guide data when I'm already paying the DVR fee (and 811 owners get the same data free by design).


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## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> "...and I guess the powers at E* are furious with the screwup. Can you imaging what would happen if some coders screwed up and unlocked all the Pay per views with a software upgrade?..."


*I LIKE IT! *  I wonder if it would take them (the Eldon-eers) the average three to four months (between updates) for that fix to get addressed? HUMMM? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"Before I do a meltdown, can there be an independent confirmation that this is indeed a "mistake"?"_

Well, you probably will never hear it from Mark or Allen as they have NDA agreements not to talk about stuff like the behind the scenes reality. Plus, I doubt it will ever be said on CC or Tech chats either. So where do you think an "independent confirmation" should come from? Let me make a suggestion to you. You can do exactly what I did and contact some of the people in the development group. They will tell you what they can. Who are they? easy! They are the people you see on the tech chat forum every 3 months. Yes, you can establish a dialog with them. E* tech staff are friendly, willing to help, people. Unlike most at D* who sometimes act like you're talking to the assistant director of the CIA. LOL, I get business cards from them at CES and personal invitation to call or e-mail them if I ever have questions. I know Scott is probably tapping his connections too. One thing you can trust I did, Michael, is I made it quite clear what we feel is the right, fair, thing for E* to do vs. what will create further bad feelings toward E* by the 921 owners. Not only recently with this L215 mess on OTA guide data but since the beginning of the 921 with the missing guides for all. Normally, I would not have been as forthcoming as this with the OTA guide problem and I know it is embarrassing for them to have such a problem. BUT, I feel very strongly that E* needs to see how doing the right thing on the 921 is important for keeping their core early adopters and advanced users continued faithful supporters. I have only the best interests for E* and all subscribers at heart. Both camps need to never forget that it's the programming that matters and the hardware only supports this. When the competition has a feature and E* meets the competition but charges you extra for it, that is something we need to make them understand is an E* policy screwup.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Thanks Don. I hope you didn't my comments personally (about wanting independent confirmation that the guide data to non-LIL subs was a mistake).

I actually suggested that the LIL's be put in red in my guide to several people at E* - including "CEO". I also talked over the phone to ATS about the issue (this was befor 215 rolled out). I was told back then that there would be something in 215 regarding OTA guide support. So when 215 gave us some OTA guide support, my first thought was that someone took my request seriously. Now I hear it's a "mistake". 

My 921 has been locking-up and crashing daily since 215. I'm about ready to ask that they take this DVR and shove it. Give me an 811 with free OTA guide data that is not a "mistake" and no HD to crash.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

For those of you (me included) that are *getting guide data but not subscribing to it may loose that info in *the next release *L216*. Presently it's just a rumor but from a reliable source and that's all I'm saying.


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## garyhesq (Nov 5, 2004)

I just dropped my locals to see what happens. I only kept them for the guide data and to watch Enterprise on UPN. No more Enterprise so I don't need UPN. I'm in Pittsburgh looking at 61.5, 110, 119. I am still getting my guide data!


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## TheBert (Dec 9, 2004)

Gary,
Are you still getting 9 days worth, Last time I dropped the locals I kept the data and didn't receive any new data and a week later it was gone. I am one who is paying for guide data and I NEVER watch the E* locals, Only the OTA digitals. To me it seemed that without the guide data the 921 is real buggy? I really don't have any problems since I subscribed to the locals again although I hate to pay for it.


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## gboot (Oct 11, 2004)

I'm where you are at Bert. I don't even mind paying for the OTA data which I consider part of the DVR fee, but it bugs me to pay for the Dish locals also. Gary - please keep us posted as to new guide data getting populated once you drop the locals.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

jergenf said:


> For those of you (me included) that are *getting guide data but not subscribing to it may loose that info in *the next release *L216*. Presently it's just a rumor but from a reliable source and that's all I'm saying.


Who... Me? LOL Just kidding.

MichaelP
I'm sure many have suggested this over and over. However, I have always focused my technical suggestions with 3 technical people and never an executive officer. I always got the impression that these executive types were not all that in tune to the nitty gritty details of what's going on. The people I talk to are and they can discuss the engineering aspects as they are engineers. It was funny but the description of the plan to improve guide data for non DMA struck me funny because while this didn't affect me I did read about this request on this forum just moments before when someone asked me about it. It seems E* does want to implement that non-DMA feature and fix the current bugs so it actually works. And, juast for the record, I have stated over and over to E* contacts that since 2-1-2005, failure to implement PSIP EIT ( Enhanced Information Table) guide data is in violation of the spirit of the regulation and the FCC is interested in hearing about broadcasters manufacturers who are not in compliance. Hint! The suply of additional guide data is entirely voluntary. To charge for it as a requirement to receive it may be in violation of the regulation. Currently, I feel, with the screwup, E* is in compliance with the PSIP guide data eventhough it is actually coming from a service, in otherwords they have volunteered to supply more than the regulation is asking for. However, IF they pull it off in an attempt to sell the guide service, then I see no choice for us except to complain to the FCC as they requested. But remember, all the law requires is they supply what the broadcaster is sending. It will never be as pretty as what the service is providing but it will be far more than nothing. Then if one needs more than what the law provides for, go buy it!


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## KCMike (Dec 20, 2004)

I dropped my locals a week ago, and I still have a full 9 days of guide data for OTA.

Mike


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

KCMike said:


> I dropped my locals a week ago, and I still have a full 9 days of guide data for OTA.
> 
> Mike


Welcome to the forum, KCMike, from a fellow KC guy. Out of curiosity, do you have any guide info on 29-1, 19-1, 19-2, or 62-1? None of these appear in the OTA guide on my 921, and none of the LIL analog stations (along with channel 4, which I can't get digitally, anyway) appear in red in the 8000's, either. Is that the case with you, also?

Brad


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Michael P said:


> I think it's safe to say that the guide data for locals are indeed tied to the satellite that they are delivered on.


AFAIK the EEPG contains data for all channels (there is no 9-day EPG for each satellite) but the receiver only displays the ones you have a satellite feed for and are eligible to subscribe to. Neither condition should be applied to any OTA you can receive whether from your market or a neighboring one. All the pieces needed to display guide info under the current solution are present - station identifier from PSIP and info in the EEPG. Just link them without testing for a satellite feed.


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## KCMike (Dec 20, 2004)

Bradtothebone said:


> Welcome to the forum, KCMike, from a fellow KC guy. Out of curiosity, do you have any guide info on 29-1, 19-1, 19-2, or 62-1? None of these appear in the OTA guide on my 921, and none of the LIL analog stations (along with channel 4, which I can't get digitally, anyway) appear in red in the 8000's, either. Is that the case with you, also?
> 
> Brad


Brad,
Same here, except I do have guide data for 62-1.

Mike


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

BobaBird
I think the EPG is tied to the dish you have here is why
I live in the Sav. Ga DMA they are on 105 and I do not get EPG with my dish 500.
I pick up OTA stations from Columbia SC and Charleston SC also on 105 and no EPG
I also get stations from Jax Fl and Orlando Fl both of there have locals on 110/119 and I get both of the in my OTA EPG and are in red on my all ch EPG in 8000


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

What I wrote is a possible explanation that actually supports what you and Michael P said. The fact that the receiver doesn't display the EPG doesn't mean it didn't get it. The lack of display is tied to the lack of a dish. I'm saying the lack of a dish shouldn't trump the presence of an OTA signal.

Here's an experiment you can try. Cover the 110 LNB - do you still have OTA info for Jacksonville and Orlando? Not sure how long it would have to be for, maybe overnight or maybe just do a reset. Might be easier for someone who can see locals that are available from 119 since they wouldn't be blocking access to the EEPG on 110.

I can't do it myself since I can't receive any out of market stations.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

KCMike said:


> Brad,
> Same here, except I do have guide data for 62-1.
> 
> Mike


Mike, either I have a bad memory, or 62-1 was recently added - I have it now, too. Thanks.

Brad


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

Not sure if blocking 110 would tell anything, all the EPG comes from 110-tp29.
Would be nice if someone that gets locals from 119 could add to the mix.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

oljim said:


> Not sure if blocking 110 would tell anything, all the EPG comes from 110-tp29.
> Would be nice if someone that gets locals from 119 could add to the mix.


Not really, I know someone who just has 61.5 and they EPG for that satellite. Five years ago I only had 119 and got my EPG data. Now I have superdish 121 and recently added 61.5 and got even more channel data than before. Each satellite location supplies its own EPG.


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

The 9 day EPG is only on 110 TP 29


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

oljim said:


> The 9 day EPG is only on 110 TP 29


I'm getting 9 days for all four sat locations. Also new channels appeared only after adding the extra dish. Are you saying if I was to disconnect 110 I would loose all of 110 plus only receive only 2 days for 119, 121 and 61.5?


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

Yep All DVRs need to get 110 TP 29 for 9 day EPG


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

DonLandis said:


> Who... Me? LOL Just kidding.
> 
> MichaelP
> IF they pull it off in an attempt to sell the guide service, then I see no choice for us except to complain to the FCC as they requested. But remember, all the law requires is they supply what the broadcaster is sending. It will never be as pretty as what the service is providing but it will be far more than nothing. Then if one needs more than what the law provides for, go buy it!


I totally agree since they failed to provide PSIP data they shouldn't charge anyone for their enhanced version of the guide that they're presently sending. The 921 has a built-in digital OTA tuner so that we can get free locals therefore as far as guide information is concerned, free should mean free. If they withold that info in the next software release customers will see that as a malicious act on their part.


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## phonebill (Oct 30, 2004)

I am not getting the OTA guide for my locals. I do not subscribe. I have a dish 500 and 61.5 dish only. The locals in my area are on Superdish 105. I do not get the 7000 listings on all channels either. 

Does anybody who has a similar setup such as mine get the channel info?

Thanks, Bill in WV

921 (215)
7200 
6000 gets the info in the evening on ABC, NBC, and CBS on the analog channels


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

phonebill said:


> I am not getting the OTA guide for my locals. I do not subscribe. I have a dish 500 and 61.5 dish only. The locals in my area are on Superdish 105. I do not get the 7000 listings on all channels either.
> 
> Does anybody who has a similar setup such as mine get the channel info?
> 
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head, since you need the 105 satellite for your locals you won't receive the guide data. Your only option is to upgrade your dish 500 to superdish. They may offer you one for free if you subscribe to locals for a year. Bare in mind it's not really free if you have to pay $60-72 for channels you're already getting.
I got the 121 superdish for subscribing to German TV and it also happens to be where my locals reside. Since 215 I get local info only in the 76XX region as red because I don't subscribe. Just hope I don't loose it in a future release.


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