# DISH's new Hopper DVR - A good idea?



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

By now you likely have heard of the "Hopper" from DISH. What do we think of this?

My limited understanding is that it records all of prime time every night on all of the big 4 or 5 networks, and then holds that content for 8 days.

As someone who's viewing contains a high percentage of big net prime, I can see a certain attractiveness to that concept. Of course if you would rather watch _The Jersey Shore,_ movies, and live sports, it probably doesn't really mean much to you. Now that a number of cable nets are putting out quality shows in HD, it means less to me than it would have 5 or 10 years ago.

I also have a lot of shows that I just don't get to during the week. Right now, _Person of Interest i_s about the only show I have to see that night, and few are must-sees within the week. I think _The Good Wife _is the best show ever to grace television, yet I still have 5 or 6 backed up; _Justified_ is one of my favorites, yet I let the last 3 eps from last season linger for months. I also probably have over 25 _The Mentalists_ just sitting there, so 8 days is hardly a real solution for me.

It would also be nice if this feature were customizable; IOW. let me pick the channels and the time blocks myself. In the summer it makes more sense to block record prime on USA or TNT than it does NBC or ABC, for instance.

But what do the rest of us think? Is this a great idea that we should solicit DTV to emulate (steal), or is it just so much overhype and not really of much value? (try to avoid sour grapes posts please)


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## Jerry_K (Oct 22, 2006)

All I can see is this filling up a hard drive with a whole lot of drivel. 

We can record anything we want now with Series Links.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

I wonder how it handles reruns and such, it has to record them since it's the whole transponder.

I like the HR34 method, I can record all prime time from the networks, but in my own terms.


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## kevinwmsn (Aug 19, 2006)

I think the hr34 would take of most needs. I would have to try this hopper DVR to be sure.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

If I wanted to record all of those shows I would. Why do I need to waste a tuner if I don't want to.


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## Go Beavs (Nov 18, 2008)

Shades228 said:


> If I wanted to record all of those shows I would. Why do I need to waste a tuner if I don't want to.


Exactly! I don't need the thing to record a bunch of stuff I won't watch. If I want to record it, I'll set up a series link.

This feature is just Ho Hum to me...


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Shades228 said:


> If I wanted to record all of those shows I would. Why do I need to waste a tuner if I don't want to.


I guess the theory is that you'd have plenty of tuners to do other things, but that means multiple DVRs, which I am of the impression is not many Dish households have.

Yeah, if I had it, at some point I'd want to go back and watch some show that had been referenced by someone else, but I certainly can watch all I want of prime time network TV in other ways.


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## kymikes (Jan 16, 2008)

The function that I have not been able to tell if it exists is the ability to "cull" from the 7 - 8 days of the 'major' networks to save the shows that I really want to see. If you could do that it might have some usefulness in getting more 'bang for your bucks' in tuner utilization for the 3 tuners. If it doesn't exist or is too hard to use, then it seems to be something that consumes lots of hard drive for limited usefulness. Kind of one of these 'oddball' ideas that might have a kernel of function that you don't see until you work with it for a while.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

kymikes said:


> The function that I have not been able to tell if it exists is the ability to "cull" from the 7 - 8 days of the 'major' networks to save the shows that I really want to see. If you could do that it might have some usefulness in getting more 'bang for your bucks' in tuner utilization for the 3 tuners. If it doesn't exist or is too hard to use, then it seems to be something that consumes lots of hard drive for limited usefulness. Kind of one of these 'oddball' ideas that might have a kernel of function that you don't see until you work with it for a while.


According to the slide from the press conference, you can. 
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2937437&postcount=10


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## kymikes (Jan 16, 2008)

David Ortiz said:


> According to the slide from the press conference, you can.
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2937437&postcount=10


Thanks. I missed that. For my viewing habits, that might provide some function if I could 'cull' or extract the shows of interest as the week went along and release the remaining DVR disk space. Then it becomes a question of tuner utilization vs. a maintenance activity. Hard to tell without a chance to try it. I think I would would rather have more tuners but now 'price' becomes a question for the alternative solutions.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Uses up to what 400gigs of hard drive space, and you can't fast forward the commercials that are on these shows that are recorded this way. Totally useless to me. At least it looks like you can turn that off.


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## markrogo (Sep 18, 2007)

It has 2TB, or twice the space of an HR34. I'm unclear on the need to start reclaiming the relatively small amount of space this is using for the network broadcasts.

It will let you save your favorite series like normal and also eventually tag stuff via a smartphone/tablet app for saving as well (those features not yet implemented).


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

markrogo said:


> It has 2TB, or twice the space of an HR34. I'm unclear on the need to start reclaiming the relatively small amount of space this is using for the network broadcasts.
> 
> It will let you save your favorite series like normal and also eventually tag stuff via a smartphone/tablet app for saving as well (those features not yet implemented).


It has 2 TB because DISH reserves 1TB. So users only have access to 1TB.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Well ... I don't know ...

Couple of major shortcomings so far that I see; 

Only three satellite tuners per Hopper? 

Which is understandable I guess since Dish wants to maintain a single wire system of course, yet has to rely on frequency stacking 500 Mhz blocks atop one another one one cable to supply the Hopper's tuners.

Therefore you need to go to a two Hopper configuration to reach six tuners in aggregate.

And the system also does not appear to integrate in any way with Dish's current ViP series DVRs. So unlike DIRECTV's WH system, there's no MRV capability between them and the Hopper.

I'll give it this though, by necessity Dish has to get their version of an external proprietary "RVU-like" client box (the XiP 110 or "Joey") out of the door with the Hopper when this system is released. Whereas progress on DIRECTV's (only known) version, Pace's C30-700, appears to be stalled for some reason. 

But this aside had to vote for a "Ho Hum" for now anyway.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

TomCat said:


> It would also be nice if this feature were customizable; IOW. let me pick the channels and the time blocks myself. In the summer it makes more sense to block record prime on USA or TNT than it does NBC or ABC, for instance.


The key benefit of the feature (which is called "Prime Time Anytime") is to use one tuner to record four channels. For one tuner to do that, all four channels must be on the same transponder. If one wanted to record a primetime sweep on one channel that can be done on any single tuner.

I can see it as a good feature for people who watch a lot of prime time broadcast TV and there have been times when someone at work or online has mentioned a new show last night or within the past couple of days that seemed interesting but I had no way of watching it (other than Hulu, etc). With Prime Time Anytime one has the week to go back and see what they missed.

There have also been times where there is "nothing on" where I have wished I could have watched a broadcast show that wasn't worth setting a series link for. Or something that conflicted with other recordings I had scheduled.

As far as DirecTV "borrowing" the concept perhaps it is unneeded with the current content sharing allowed between DirecTV receivers. But the idea of using one of a home's tuners to record four channels frees up three tuners for other channels - at the cost of storage space. Distribution to other receivers could still be done the way DirecTV's whole home service works. DirecTV "borrowing" the Prime Time Anywhere concept doesn't force them to use the sharing concept of the Hopper.

So is it worth using one tuner to record four channels automatically each night saving three tuners for something else or would customers rather pick and chose which prime time broadcast shows to record? It all comes down to how much broadcast TV your family watches.


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## tomallison24 (Dec 10, 2008)

As I started reading this thread I thought, oh wow, Dish holds those shows somehow so I don't have to use my tuner(s) for them. If that's not the case and they're using my tuners, well that's just telling me what to watch. If that's so then it's BS. If it's what I originally thought, then bravo.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

James Long said:


> ...
> As far as DirecTV "borrowing" the concept perhaps it is unneeded with the current content sharing allowed between DirecTV receivers. But the idea of using one of a home's tuners to record four channels frees up three tuners for other channels - at the cost of storage space. Distribution to other receivers could still be done the way DirecTV's whole home service works. DirecTV "borrowing" the Prime Time Anywhere concept doesn't force them to use the sharing concept of the Hopper.
> 
> *So is it worth using one tuner to record four channels automatically each night saving three tuners for something else or would customers rather pick and chose which prime time broadcast shows to record? It all comes down to how much broadcast TV your family watches.*


As well as DIRECTV's need to sacrifice more bandwidth to implement such a feature by having to duplicate the big four network feeds for the NY and LA markets on both spot and CONUS beams as I pointed out here.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2938520#post2938520


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

I've been doing a lot of reading about this, and overall it is an excellent idea and the implementation looks solid.

The PrimeTime feature is a big plus, especially with Dish. From all appearances, they worked to get all the big 4 on one transponder for each area and they have some studies, and my personal experience, that show that most of the recording contention is with the locals since they don't rerun at later times or days most often. And after the night's recording, you can move the shows you want to keep to the 'user' area of the hard drive and keep them beyond the 8 days that PrimeTime keeps them by default. And it is optional, you don't have to use it at all.

The speed of operation on the demo I saw was just amazing. Not one single D* receiver or DVR does things anywhere near that quick. That is also a big plus.

Two downsides exist. One is that there is only 3-tuners, with PrimeTime, that isn't as big a downside as it could be, but it is still fairly limiting. In my household, I'd need two Hoppers and no Joeys because of the way we watch.

The other downside is that it won't work with anything but Joeys, no current receiver can work with it.

As to how much disk E* is taking of that 2TB, well which D* DVR gives you 1TB of user space? And I believe that just as with the current Vip's, you can add an EHD that adds to (not replace) the internal drive and that it will also be tied to account, not receiver.

Both D* and E*'s approach to MRV seems very viable, both have good and bad points.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tomallison24 said:


> As I started reading this thread I thought, oh wow, Dish holds those shows somehow so I don't have to use my tuner(s) for them. If that's not the case and they're using my tuners, well that's just telling me what to watch. If that's so then it's BS. If it's what I originally thought, then bravo.


It depends on what receiver you base the comparison on. If one is moving from a two tuner receiver to a two tuner plus a "PTA" tuner the receiver they are taking is new, not one of the ones that was relied on. Also if one of your tuners is constantly tied up recording one of the big four from 8pm-11pm each night then you're getting four recordings for the "price" of one tuner. Any time one is recording at least one prime time broadcast show it is a break even ... and if you're recording two or more the feature frees up tuners.

The feature is designed for people who watch prime time broadcast programming. It can be turned off if one doesn't want the feature.



HoTat2 said:


> As well as DIRECTV's need to sacrifice more bandwidth to implement such a feature by having to duplicate the big four network feeds for the NY and LA markets on both spot and CONUS beams as I pointed out here.


DISH had to realign some of their channels to make sure all four networks were on the same spotbeam or transponder. In short markets that do not have all four networks filling in with a distant would require mirroring the distant on that market's spot beam. As long as the spotbeam space is available it shouldn't be a big problem (other than having more feeds for quality control to monitor). If not used for a short market fill in what would that transponder space be used for?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Yeah ... I suppose they could do this once "again" I guess. Because interestingly enough DIRECTV actually did this for a some time in duplicating the big four network HD local feeds for the NY and LA markets onto both CONUS and spotbeams. And no one really understood why the need for this apparent waste of bandwidth instead of simply doing what they had always done with their SD versions of transmitting them on CONUS beams for DNS service and then remapping them into the local channel range in the guide.

Wonder if DIRECTV was thinking of some type of future PTAT feature on a multi-tuner DVR way back then?


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

I was at CES and spent time with the Dish network folks and got the skinny on the Hopper.

Big sign says "records 6 shows at once".
Small print says it has 3 tuners.

How it works, the 4 networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX) are recording on a single tuner 8-11pm during prime time daily. It does this out of the box. It keeps everything there for 8 days. On day 9, the first days shows are gone unless you "save" it. It has a pretty good Interface, like selecting JPEGS and you click on one you want and can delete, save, play etc.

The other tuners are there for watching and/or recording whatever you want.

Users can tell the prime time tuner not to record say CBS, but it still cannot be used for other recordings during prime time. So during parts of the day there are 3 tuners to record anything and at other times, may be two. But they advertise six things at once.

I can't imagine folks not causing tuner conflicts with this in practice. Particularly in that they have MOCA clients that are similar in size to a H25 without any tuner. And need the Hopper for content and live TV.

Likely since UVerse has 4 tuners, Directv has 5 in the HR34, this is the one-upmanship spec game to claim 6 recordings at a time. 

And no OTA capability whatsoever. Not inside, no piggyback tuner like an AM21.


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## Kevin F (May 9, 2010)

This will definitely cause people many tuner conflicts in my opinion.

Kevin


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

James Long said:


> The key benefit of the feature (which is called "Prime Time Anytime") is to use one tuner to record four channels. For one tuner to do that, all four channels must be on the same transponder. If one wanted to record a primetime sweep on one channel that can be done on any single tuner.
> 
> I can see it as a good feature for people who watch a lot of prime time broadcast TV...


That is actually pretty clever. A typical transponder sends 4 HD locals in a MTPS (multiple program transport stream) which is a single data stream. A typical DVR demultiplexes the program of interest, sends that to the tuner and HDD, and ignores the rest. This concept turns that on its head, by recording the MPTS as a single stream to the HDD, then doing the demux at playback instead. Technically, that is actually very simple.

I do the very same thing at work for delaying multiple network TV sat feeds on servers for stations (record then play back the entire MPTS),* and here is the catch:* you must either keep the entire MPTS (or whatever timed section of it) to save a recording, or delete the entire thing. You can't save _Whitney_ and delete the other 3 shows that shared that transport stream originally (that aired at the same time from the other networks), as they are all tied up together on the HDD.

Unless they have found some clever way around that, this really complicates the HDD space management tying up a lot of space for shows you may not want to save. Effectively, for one 30-minute show in an hour block it could take up to 8 times the HDD space to save a single show from that particular time period.

I guess they could demux all the shows at record (still takes one tuner) instead of demuxing before the tuner, but that would take a more-powerful CPU than a garden-variety DVR would have available. Those of us with the HR20-23 know that every CPU cycle is already in use, just because of the delays we see in response.

The good news is that the newer DVRs do have that power, so while the Hopper may be one implementation of it (and actually may not have the complication regarding HDD space management that I raised here), *I see another, possibly more-valuable implementation of this technology:* Ignore for a moment the concept of auto-block-recording prime, and think what happens when you want to record 3 programs at once from the big nets, which is typically a conflict.

But if you demux all 4 channels ahead of the HDD and record just what you want, 3 or 4 shows on the big 4 at the same time will still only take one tuner, meaning many fewer conflicts. And that would only imply minor inefficiencies in managing the HDD space if it were only invoked automagically when there would otherwise be a potential tuner conflict (the HDD space for a deleted show would not be released for use until all shows recorded on that tuner at that time were deleted). This could also be extended to the 4 or 8 most popular cable channels, making conflicts nearly a thing of the past.

I think I might have buried the lead; that would be a significant feature in my mind, much more valuable than block recording shows I will never watch like_ Dancing With The Stars_ and _Are You Smarter than a Cheese Grater._



> So is it worth using one tuner to record four channels automatically each night saving three tuners for something else or would customers rather pick and chose which prime time broadcast shows to record? It all comes down to how much broadcast TV your family watches.


 I agree. I think it has a very high appeal but to a very narrow category of user. Many posting here don't seem to even get it: sure we can do anything that the Hopper can do, we just can't have the DVR do it automatically, which is I think where the appeal, if any, would lie.

Personally, I would like to see DTV offer it anyway; firstly because if you don't think you need or would use it, then don't; no one is harmed by the feature simply being there. But the advantage of removing probably 90-95% of the conflicts from not having enough tuners was implemented (without the block recording aspect) by doing the full MPTS record and multiple demux, I see that as having great value for everyone.

Not only that, its a breeze to market: group the big 4 on one transponder and the next 4 most popular channels on another, build a box with 4 tuners in it that has this capability, and simply market it to customers with the tag line "Record up to 10 programs all at the same time".

I'd buy that. Who wouldn't?


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

It's going to be hard for most of us DIRECTV customers with larger systems to buy into this. It's limited compared to the options we have. DISH has never been a company that's focused on having large setups. They almost do things intentionally to limit their technology to smaller setups. So overall I think that this may work for people with DISH that are used to not have as many options. For people with DIRECTV and use all of the options available I don't see this as a game changes. Obviously people will go between the companies and some will like one more than the other. However I think for the general populace this is more of a marketing gimmick than it will be anything revolutionary.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

echo* making the technology run - and they are for bigger fish then you imagine (see they Aria line ), the 813/110 set is just small residue after big swirl in the pond.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

P Smith said:


> echo* making the technology run - and they are for bigger fish then you imagine (see they Aria line ), the 813/110 set is just small residue after big swirl in the pond.


Which has nothing to do with DISH.


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## markrogo (Sep 18, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> It has 2 TB because DISH reserves 1TB. So users only have access to 1TB.


Which is 100% as much as DirecTV users have. Except I spend a ton on network TV and that will fall dramatically with a Hopper-type solution. Sounds like a win.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

But that's by choice. Nothing is preventing a DirecTV subscriber from hooking up a 2TB drive. Ad I don't believe the reserved space is 1TB.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

TomCat said:


> ...I do the very same thing at work for delaying multiple network TV sat feeds on servers for stations (record then play back the entire MPTS),* and here is the catch:* you must either keep the entire MPTS (or whatever timed section of it) to save a recording, or delete the entire thing. You can't save _Whitney_ and delete the other 3 shows that shared that transport stream originally (that aired at the same time from the other networks), as they are all tied up together on the HDD.
> 
> Unless they have found some clever way around that, this really complicates the HDD space management tying up a lot of space for shows you may not want to save. Effectively, for one 30-minute show in an hour block it could take up to 8 times the HDD space to save a single show from that particular time period.


The way I understand it, when you "save" a particular show for viewing beyond the 8 day period, it is transferred to the user half of the disk. That would imply that the demux is done at that time. Otherwise, as you say, all four channels go en masse.

In our household we almost never watch anything on 2 of the 4 broadcast networks. So, recording all 4 automatically has limited appeal.

To me, the only real attraction is the larger disk...depending on the cost. We have a 2TB external drive on one of our DVRs (with all of it usable by us) and 1TB drives on 2 others. The 2TB solution had a total cost of around $250 ($99 for the Directv DVR and $150 for the drive and enclosure) and the 1TB setups somewhat less. I haven't seen any pricing for the Hopper, but if comes in significantly below that price point, that would be an advantage.

However, you still have the issue of needing Joeys for multiple viewing. In our house, we the equivalent of an 8 tuner DVR with 4.3TB of disk space and the ability to watch recordings at any of 6 locations...with the need to manage what gets recorded manually. Of course, you also need to factor in monthly costs. The price for this "8 tuner DVR" and all 6 viewing locations is $33 per month (5 "additional" receivers at $6/month plus the $3/month WHDVR service). What would the Dish cost be for an equivalent setup? Could you even build the equivalent with Dish?

For us, at least, the automation of recording the broadcast networks is not enough to compensate for the loss of functionality we have with 4 dual tuner HD DVRs, 2 HD receivers and whole home DVR service.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> It's going to be hard for most of us DIRECTV customers with larger systems to buy into this. It's limited compared to the options we have. DISH has never been a company that's focused on having large setups. They almost do things intentionally to limit their technology to smaller setups. So overall I think that this may work for people with DISH that are used to not have as many options. For people with DIRECTV and use all of the options available I don't see this as a game changes. Obviously people will go between the companies and some will like one more than the other. However I think for the general populace this is more of a marketing gimmick than it will be anything revolutionary.


I think it is evolutionary rather than revolutionary. If you ignore for just a moment, the 3 tuners vice 5 of the HR34 and just look at how it all works together, it is a logical step from what we have at D* for MRV.

The hopper/joey combo gives you full functionality with your recordings on every box, which is not true today with MRV. Trick play comes to mind.

IF the Hopper had 5 tuners like the HR34, it would be hands down a winner. As it sits, it would depend on which potential customer is looking at it. Those that find the broadcast primetime to be a big value would love this thing, those that don't probably wouldn't see it as an improvement over the HR34.

As to who will actually want it over the D* system, well I think that will not be a huge factor in deciding. Most consumers will see that both D* and E* have multi-room viewing and decide which service they will use by the programming offered and the 'deal' they can make, just like they do now.

I do agree with your assumption that E* seems to be more in tune with smaller installations. But that is hardly new, it has been discussed many times right here.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

TomCat said:


> I do the very same thing at work for delaying multiple network TV sat feeds on servers for stations (record then play back the entire MPTS),* and here is the catch:* you must either keep the entire MPTS (or whatever timed section of it) to save a recording, or delete the entire thing. You can't save _Whitney_ and delete the other 3 shows that shared that transport stream originally (that aired at the same time from the other networks), as they are all tied up together on the HDD.
> 
> Unless they have found some clever way around that, this really complicates the HDD space management tying up a lot of space for shows you may not want to save. Effectively, for one 30-minute show in an hour block it could take up to 8 times the HDD space to save a single show from that particular time period.


At the booth the rep showed me saving one single show from ABC and transferring it to the user partition. I did not ask about the exact storage and stream saving. He implied it was one show only but may be not.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Titan25 said:


> To me, the only real attraction is the larger disk...depending on the cost. We have a 2TB external drive on one of our DVRs (with all of it usable by us) and 1TB drives on 2 others. The 2TB solution had a total cost of around $250 ($99 for the Directv DVR and $150 for the drive and enclosure) and the 1TB setups somewhat less. I haven't seen any pricing for the Hopper, but if comes in significantly below that price point, that would be an advantage.
> 
> However, you still have the issue of needing Joeys for multiple viewing. In our house, we the equivalent of an 8 tuner DVR with 4.3TB of disk space and the ability to watch recordings at any of 6 locations...with the need to manage what gets recorded manually. Of course, you also need to factor in monthly costs. The price for this "8 tuner DVR" and all 6 viewing locations is $33 per month (5 "additional" receivers at $6/month plus the $3/month WHDVR service). What would the Dish cost be for an equivalent setup? Could you even build the equivalent with Dish?
> 
> For us, at least, the automation of recording the broadcast networks is not enough to compensate for the loss of functionality we have with 4 dual tuner HD DVRs, 2 HD receivers and whole home DVR service.


From some guesses around the 'net, the Hopper will be free w/2 year commit for new customers, and there has been comments that there will be some very good deals for existing. But no official word on pricing yet.

You talk about the big HD you have, but I've never bothered to connect an external HD to a D* DVR because it is tied to the receiver it is connected to and when that quits or gets upgraded to new, all those recordings are lost. I thought and still think, that was a terrible way to do things.

E*'s approach is that the HD is tied to the account, so you can archive video and it will still be there when you switch/upgrade equipment. And the Hopper comes with a remote that will back up the timers so you can quickly replace it should it fail. That is a plus.
As to functionality, well the lack of a unified todo list and inability to set a recording or lose trickplay is somewhat negative from my POV. It is the disadvantage that the HR34 addresses, at least some of it.

From you other comments, the Hopper wouldn't be a good pick for you because it is just a straight up 3-tuner device for your use since the broadcast stuff isn't real important. Not to mention that you have a huge amount of tuners!


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

For those that want to see a demo, the 'other site' has a video on their home page of it.


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## jones_hdtv (Oct 4, 2011)

Bad Idea...I would like to see D* progress in making their software more stable (like fixing audio dropouts, slow remote response, etc.)...Also hopefully most people can decide what programs they want to record and watch....


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## nuspieds (Aug 9, 2008)

Shades228 said:


> If I wanted to record all of those shows I would. Why do I need to waste a tuner if I don't want to.


+1.

Reminds me of when I got the first TiVo: By Day 2 I immediately disabled the feature that would let it record things it thought I would like. All sorts of nonsense were being recorded.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> From some guesses around the 'net, the Hopper will be free w/2 year commit for new customers, and there has been comments that there will be some very good deals for existing. But no official word on pricing yet.
> 
> You talk about the big HD you have, but I've never bothered to connect an external HD to a D* DVR because it is tied to the receiver it is connected to and when that quits or gets upgraded to new, all those recordings are lost. I thought and still think, that was a terrible way to do things.
> 
> ...


Having the recording encryption tied to the receiver is not an issue for us. If you use the internal drive, and the box dies, you lose your recordings anyway. Tying the encryption to the account makes sense if your goal is to build a permanent archive. That's not how we use our DVRs. We record lots of content - mostly movies, and some series. This becomes an alternative for when there is "nothing on" to watch, and/or we have caught up on the series we watch regularly. If we lose it, it is after all just TV...we didn't buy it, it came along with our subscription, so it's no big deal to start over.

I recognize your point about the unified todo list and remote scheduling issues, and agree that the HR34 addresses those - at the expense of even greater exposure to possible loss of recordings in the event of a hardware failure.

Obviously, some people will find the Hopper attractive. Others won't. That's why both DirecTv and Dish are successful. In terms of future development, I think DirecTV has most of the Hopper advantages covered with the Hr34. I'd rather see them address other factors. But that's just my opinion.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Shades228 said:


> Which has nothing to do with DISH.


It has, echo is the designer and manufacturer of DVR and receivers.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Shades228 said:


> It has 2 TB because DISH reserves 1TB. So users only have access to 1TB.


According all reports from last CES, the XiP813 allow users write 250 hrs of HD content, what roughly calculated to 250 GB of the 2 TB drive space.
By easy count it is 12.5% of total.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Titan25 said:


> ... However, you still have the issue of needing Joeys for multiple viewing. In our house, we the equivalent of an 8 tuner DVR with 4.3TB of disk space and the ability to watch recordings at any of 6 locations...with the need to manage what gets recorded manually. Of course, you also need to factor in monthly costs. The price for this "8 tuner DVR" and all 6 viewing locations is $33 per month (5 "additional" receivers at $6/month plus the $3/month WHDVR service). *What would the Dish cost be for an equivalent setup? Could you even build the equivalent with Dish? *...


No, from what I can see of it so far the Dish system won't allow you 8 combined satellite tuners that way.

At present the max. is six tuners combined (three per Hopper) in a two Hopper setup linked together by a device called an "XiP Duo Node."

And this is where the Hopper/Joey system's inability to integrate at all with the current Dish ViP series HD-DVRs really bites you as it appears to be a totally separate system and will not interoperate with the current installed base of Dish's HD-DVRs.

So the Hopper's tuners are not effectively additive to the other DVRs for recording programs as DIRECTV's HD-DVRs are with the HR34 through WH.

A big drawback to me and unworkable here as well since we have 4 HD-DVRs, and 1 HD receiver tied together though WH for a combined 8 recording tuners ourselves.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

I think you are right, max of 2 Hoppers for a total of 6 tuners. There doesn't appear to be a way to add a 3rd Hopper that I saw either. Or maybe we just don't know enough?

For larger installations with some of the current product, it would be nice if they could integrate into the Hopper/Joey world. Depending on what some of the current receivers/dvrs are being used for viewing, it could be used, just wouldn't be able to see what's on the Hoppers. That's a negative for some.

At the moment, neither D* nor E* has that ideal MRV solution. But with each looking at the other, you can hope that they will both take some ideas from each and implement them. Or at least, that's what I would like to see.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

P Smith said:


> According all reports from last CES, the XiP813 allow users write 250 hrs of HD content, what roughly calculated to 250 GB of the 2 TB drive space.
> By easy count it is 12.5% of total.


And that's an issue. But there are conflicting reports. The only thing Dish has said at this time is that it gives 250 hours of HD, they don't expand on what that means at all. Unofficially it is being reported that you have 1TB available to the user, which doesn't seem to calculate right at all.

If they are only giving up that 12.5%, they must be auto-downloading a hell of a lot of stuff in 'their' space!

Of course, since you can tag another up to 2TB external drive that adds to storage, that may not be that big a deal.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

NR4P said:


> At the booth the rep showed me saving one single show from ABC and transferring it to the user partition. I did not ask about the exact storage and stream saving. He implied it was one show only but may be not.


Yes, I wasn't really sure why Tomcat, as indicated by the enlarged lettering there, felt there would be a need to have to "cut out" one of the programs in the MPTS multiplex for the big four networks while deleting the other three  AFAIK the Dish system's PTAT feature appears to simply record with one tuner the entire MPTS multiplex sent during the local 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM prime time viewing slot (± any desired adjustments I understand) onto the reserved portion of the HDD for temporary storage of up to eight days, where the user then has the option of "copying and saving" (not "cut and deleting") any or all of the individual recorded shows from that obviously large integrated file to the user portion of the HDD where they may be stored indefinitely.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

James Long said:


> *The key benefit of the feature (which is called "Prime Time Anytime") is to use one tuner to record four channels. For one tuner to do that, all four channels must be on the same transponder. *If one wanted to record a primetime sweep on one channel that can be done on any single tuner.


I actually think that makes it cool, and how you just go thru them and either save them to you DVR list or let them drop it. It's just a carpet bomb of recordings, and I think the recording everything off 1 tp with 1 tuner is a cool idea.

I like my Directv though, and so far I like the 34. Hopper is no way enough to make me switch, but I like it and would use it.

And I still think the whole Kangaroo thing is stupid.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

lparsons21 said:


> And that's an issue. But there are conflicting reports. The only thing Dish has said at this time is that it gives 250 hours of HD, they don't expand on what that means at all. Unofficially it is being reported that you have 1TB available to the user, which doesn't seem to calculate right at all.
> 
> If they are only giving up that 12.5%, they must be auto-downloading a hell of a lot of stuff in 'their' space!
> 
> Of course, since you can tag another up to 2TB external drive that adds to storage, that may not be that big a deal.


As it was calculated by other person - the PTA feature 4 HD chns by 7 days will take 400-500 GB, add announced feature what DL hundred(s) VOD - N hundreds by 400 GB (one movies is 3-4 GB in HD), hard to say but 2-4 hundreds movies ... 1+ TB.
That's left for us the miserable 250 GB, eg 12.5% of total space.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> According all reports from last CES, the XiP813 allow users write 250 hrs of HD content, what roughly calculated to 250 GB of the 2 TB drive space.
> By easy count it is 12.5% of total.


Not sure of the differences between Dish & DirecTV, but 400 GBs of MPEG-4 on DirecTV only gives you around 100 hrs, which is WAY out of line with your post.


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## Jason Whiddon (Aug 17, 2006)

Avg 1hr episode on dish ranges from 1.9gigs to 2.5 gigs per episode.

Id ASSume Directv is a little higher, since they have less compression.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> According all reports from last CES, the XiP813 allow users write 250 hrs of HD content, what roughly calculated to 250 GB of the 2 TB drive space.
> By easy count it is 12.5% of total.


You've been posting that figure a lot P. Smith, but I still don't see the sense in it.

I think Dish is using the same criteria DIRECTV uses when publishing these figures for a DVR's HDD program capacity.

SD is always the base reference at a recording rate of ~1 GB per hour of programming and HD requires around four times that much space per hour of recording or ~4 GB/hr..

So for 1 TB of user space, that gives either a max. of ~1000 hours of recorded SD capacity or ~250 hours of HD, or somewhere in between these two extremes for a combination of both types of programs. But either way its still 50% of a 2TB HDD set aside for the user in the XiP813 (the "Hopper").

[Note: SD format is assumed to be MPEG-2, while HD is MPEG-4].

This is demonstrated by a handy chart for computing the gains of using an EHD over a DVR's internal one in a thread discussing eSATA HDDs.


```
[b]Nominal  Actual   Space       Capacity   Capacity   Hours  Hours     Hours 
Drive    Drive    for User    versus     versus     of     of        of 
[u]Size     Size     Recording   HR21       HR22       SD     MPEG2-HD  MPEG4-HD[/b][/u]
300GB    279GB     179GB      x 0.90     x.0.49     200      30       50
320GB    298GB     198GB      x 1.00     x 0.54     221      33       55
500GB    465GB     365GB      x 1.84     x 1.00     408      61      102
640GB    596GB     496GB      x 2.51     x 1.36     554      83      139
750GB    698GB     598GB      x 3.02     x 1.64     668     100      167
[COLOR="Red"]1TB      931GB     831GB      x 4.20     x 2.28     928     139      232[/COLOR]
1.5TB   1397GB    1297GB      x 6.55     x 3.55    1449     217      362
2TB     1863GB    1763GB      x 8.90     x 4.83    1970     295      492
```
(Numbers above adjusted to represent "actual" binary GB as you can see)


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I counted that way for dish (not DTV):
- seen VOD sizes (you can find those threads with numbers here) for files where is 1 GB/h number is a rule of thumb;
- let take DTV(!) HD stream 5-6-7 Mbps and calculate to GB/h, it would be around 2 GB/h; now go down with res 1440x1080 and you will be close to 1-1.5 GB/h.

That's my math.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

elwaylite said:


> Avg 1hr episode on dish ranges from 1.9gigs to 2.5 gigs per episode.
> 
> Id ASSume Directv is a little higher, since they have less compression.


Then I would go to 500 GB usable space for users on the XiP813.
Final answer would be done after someone will posts sizes of real partitions.


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## BrianB (Jul 13, 2003)

The poll is about the hopper technology vs HR34 and RVU, but many seem to be nitpicking the PTA feature (which is able to be disabled BTW). Honestly, it's hard to compare because while the "joeys" will be released at the same time as the hopper there are no RVU clients to speak of.

I have to say (having used a Dish 922) that the interface is much better than the DTV DVRs.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Then I would go to 500 GB usable space for users on the XiP813.
> Final answer would be done after someone will posts sizes of real partitions.


With my HR24, one hour of MPEG-4 deleted increases my free space by about 1%, which works out to about 4 GB/hour.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

veryoldschool said:


> With my HR24, one hour of MPEG-4 deleted increases my free space by about 1%, which works out to about 4 GB/hour.


It would be very easy to post real numbers using external drive. Those +/- 50% precision ... well, not for me.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

P Smith said:


> It has, echo is the designer and manufacturer of DVR and receivers.


The Aries line is designed for cable head ends so therefor it has nothing to do with DISH. So Echostar might have some great vision for their equipment that they create but as of right now my statement about DISH's installation doesn't change.



P Smith said:


> According all reports from last CES, the XiP813 allow users write 250 hrs of HD content, what roughly calculated to 250 GB of the 2 TB drive space.
> By easy count it is 12.5% of total.


I read this on one of the early articles so according to your numbers they don't even get a gig's worth of storage. That doesn't make any sense to me as to why they would reserve that much space if people chose not to use their locals feature.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Shades228 said:


> The Aries line is designed for cable head ends so therefor it has nothing to do with DISH. So Echostar might have some great vision for their equipment that they create but as of right now my statement about DISH's installation doesn't change.
> 
> I read this on one of the early articles so according to your numbers they don't even get a gig's worth of storage. That doesn't make any sense to me as to why they would reserve that much space if people chose not to use their locals feature.


a) Then you should go into details about Aria HW and you'll find SAME Joey and little different dual tuner DVR as a Hopper.
b) See my last post above. [I'm speechless why you ignoring my acceptation of new facts ?]


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> ...
> - let take *DTV(!) HD stream 5-6-7 Mbps* and calculate to GB/h, it would be around 2 GB/h; now go down with res 1440x1080 and you will be close to 1-1.5 GB/h.
> 
> That's my math.


P. Smith, I actually recall DIRECTV's HD bit rate, at least for 1080i programming, was typically mentioned at around 9 mb/s which would make the recording rate ~4 GB/hr.

Though I admit that I don't see why Dish is quoting numbers for their XiP813 Hopper that would equate to a similar recording rate since at their lighter HD resolution of 1440 x 1080, it should put them closer to an ~7 mb/s transponder stream which translates to ~3 GB/hr recording rate for HD programs.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Then try reread Sixto summary page with a number of HD channels on D10/D11/D12 tpns ...
I'm talking about *average *for 1 hr, not max.

Down to base (you will find these): 5-6-7-8 channels per tp with bitrate 30-40 Mbps.
You can do the math again.

Adding to that: ANYONE with external drive (from DTV camp at least) would post facts about your recordings: 
- screenshot with a description what including a duration and 
- a result of "ls" command for the recording(s) on the mounted drive 
it's easy method for ppl who don't stay on verbal level and providing facts for discussions - Linux (Ubuntu at least) will help you find the facts.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> It would be very easy to post real numbers.


OK "real numbers":
When I had a 300 GB drive [HR20] 1 hour of MPEG-4 HD = 2%
Now that I have 500 GB drive(s) [HR24] 1 hour HD= 1%, and after my last reply to you I finished a 2 hour recording, deleted it and watched my free space go from 78% to 80%.

"Real Numbers".

If you must route into this deeper before you'll believe anything, "here's an idea": DO IT YOURSELF!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

vos, it's become boring ... I'm asking numbers of X GB/h but you feeding me the relative %%. I got it and told you about it.
Do you know the difference ? I guess so. Then why you continue ?
Is it hard to find something relevant to the discussion ? On your drive ?

[Yeah, right ! Sitting on a couch ... Nay, he [me] will be buried with my percentages ... heh heh ...]

OK, I'll do - just post screenshot and give me your drive. OK ?
*
Afterthoughts*: You know vos, you know me for 6 years at this site, I've been here for 10 years and I'm ALWAYS DID BY MYSELF something what I can do (have direct access):
- satellites spectrum when D10/D11 become in-orbit-testing
- cooling that freaking ViP622/722
- external-internal drive in 622 or 922
- I did measured and posted dish internal partitioning, recordings count in GB, MB, etc
- initial CE program participated
- digg into HR20 drive's partitioning and system logs (is it Linux ? yeah)
- invented a method of copying one DTV drive to other ...
- did restore a bad HR20 drive for a few ppl include member here
need to continue ? Ask gct, doctor j, Sixto, BobaBird, James Long and Doug. Shame on you...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> vos, it's become boring ... I'm asking numbers of X GB/h but you feeding me the relative %%. I got it and told you about it.
> Do you know the difference ? I guess so. Then why you continue ?
> Is it hard to find something relevant to the discussion ? On your drive ?
> 
> ...


And yet with all this "talent", lately you can't post the bandwidth of a transponder in MHz, nor it seems look at the partition sizes on the drives.
I'm not going to open my DVRs to find information for you. but will give what the screens show, and how it does relate to the sizes Earl told us so long ago, and they all pretty much match, the 3.7 GB/hour range for MPEG-4 HD.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

What f#ck is that "lately you can't post the bandwidth of a transponder in MHz" ? 
I did and you can't accept it because you have no way to proof your ? I got it... "poor Yorick" ... "Earl told us" - as usual *hear-say* method. No need to open your DVR - use external drive (I did write it above)

I got it - no need to reply. 
And as opposite someone else, I do accept corrections of my errors/mistakes and go with it after discussions. After factual base.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

:backtotop Trying to get back on topic..



BrianB said:


> The poll is about the hopper technology vs HR34 and RVU, but many seem to be nitpicking the PTA feature (which is able to be disabled BTW). Honestly, it's hard to compare because while the "joeys" will be released at the same time as the hopper there are no RVU clients to speak of.
> 
> I have to say (having used a Dish 922) that the interface is much better than the DTV DVRs.


It's apples and oranges. The HR34 and the Hopper target 2 very different markets. IMHO it is like comparing a Porsche 911 and a Porsche Cayene. Both are really nice cars, but do I want 30 cubic feet of cargo space in my 911? If I did, I'd buy the Cayene. Both the HR34 and the Hopper are valid, but very different, DVRs designed to solve different problems.


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## Jerry_K (Oct 22, 2006)

However much space it takes, most of it is likely useless. Many things useless to me and my viewing preferences, many things (probably different) useless to you with your viewing preferences. A waste of energy. Who is going to go through 84 hours of recordings every week just to transfer a few hours to the user portion of the hard drive? Not me and probably not you either.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

P Smith said:


> a) Then you should go into details about Aria HW and you'll find SAME Joey and little different dual tuner DVR as a Hopper.
> b) See my last post above. [I'm speechless why you ignoring my acceptation of new facts ?]


My point is that DISH has done things technologically speaking that limit their ability to grow to meet the needs that many DIRECTV customer's are used to now. However at this point I'll wait to see the final spec and installation to see if they change anything. I still think that this is almost a side step rather that a step forwards.

As for the HD space I replied to a thread from another page prior to seeing the back and forth of the latest posts. It had nothing to do with ignoring new facts.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> What f#ck is that "lately you can't post the bandwidth of a transponder in MHz" ?
> I did


Please show where then because you were posting Mb/s, which isn't MHz.
I would take "your word" for a posting of the Spaceway TP "used" bandwidth in MHz.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

You are still dragging the thread off-topic. Return to that relevant thread hence my first quoted (by you) phrase ... :backtotop


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> You are still dragging the thread off-topic. Return to that relevant thread hence my first quoted (by you) phrase ... :backtotop


Sure, as I'll never get the info from you.

You seem to post some "data" that is off by factors of two, three, or ten, and then have a hard time correcting it or just keep ignoring others that do.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Why is dumping baseless acquisitions here again? :down: :backtotop


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Jerry_K said:


> However much space it takes, most of it is likely useless. Many things useless to me and my viewing preferences, many things (probably different) useless to you with your viewing preferences. A waste of energy. Who is going to go through 84 hours of recordings every week just to transfer a few hours to the user portion of the hard drive? Not me and probably not you either.


Most that will use the PrimeTime feature will just watch the shows they want within the 8 day window and be done with it.


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## Jerry_K (Oct 22, 2006)

lparsons21 said:


> Most that will use the PrimeTime feature will just watch the shows they want within the 8 day window and be done with it.


From what I read you have to transfer the show from the reserved (unwatchable) portion of the drive to the user (watchable) portion of the drive.

Why not just record it to the watchable portion in the first place?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Lets get the box in our hands and you'll know all details of the process.


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## Rtm (Oct 18, 2011)

I'd prefer the hard drive not spinning all the time making extra heat when unnecessary. I guess the Hopper is meant to be in the living room so I guess not a big deal. But when I'm recording 2 shows my HR24 in my bedroom heats up and the fan starts the spin, just creating a little bit of extra ambient noise I find annoying


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## markrogo (Sep 18, 2007)

Titan25 said:


> Both the HR34 and the Hopper are valid, but very different, DVRs designed to solve different problems.


I find them designed to solve almost identical problems. Dish does make an assumption about general interest in network TV and passive recording thereof (although their intention is to allow auto saving of any of those programs). The whole client-server model with multi-tuner recording is essentially identical between the two.

The difference is limited to the fact that on DirecTV you can always record any 5 things you want, on Dish, you can record any 3 you want, or 6 during primetime -- so long as 4 are on network TV.

For folks like the rogo household, the recordings during primetime would be identical.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Jerry_K said:


> From what I read you have to transfer the show from the reserved (unwatchable) portion of the drive to the user (watchable) portion of the drive.


There is no "unwatchable" portion of the drive. The reserved portion cannot be used by the viewer for the customers recordings but all the recordings there (which includes On Demand satellite downloads that can be played back at a moment's notice) are watchable.

The only transfers needed is if one wants to keep a show beyond the 8 day limit (and has not already set an individual timer for the show).


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## Jerry_K (Oct 22, 2006)

James Long,

Thanks for that clarification.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

Shades228 said:


> If I wanted to record all of those shows I would. Why do I need to waste a tuner if I don't want to.


Mrs. Fluffybear and I watch/record less than 10 hours of prime time programming from the major broadcast networks each week with very little overlap so I see very little need for a unit to record 70+ hours of shows I don't.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Titan25 said:


> The way I understand it, when you "save" a particular show for viewing beyond the 8 day period, it is transferred to the user half of the disk. That would imply that the demux is done at that time. Otherwise, as you say, all four channels go en masse...


You can't demux one program from a program stream once the stream becomes a saved file; the only way to do that would be to stream it again, probably in real time (maybe faster), demux it at that point, and rerender the saved portion of the original file a second time.

It is theoretically possible to do that in a DVR in the background, and DISH is fond of transferring files after the fact, but I doubt their DVR has the horsepower to do that. But then, if they could manage it as a background process, maybe they can; the one thing DISH has been good at is making the interface snappy and responsive, so maybe they have coders that can manage CPU cycles better than the coders from DTV. Of course in my mind reliable code beats fast efficient code that is unreliable every single time, and reliability has never been a strong suit of their DVRs.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

TomCat said:


> You can't demux one program from a program stream once the stream becomes a saved file; the only way to do that would be to stream it again, probably in real time (maybe faster), demux it at that point, and rerender the saved portion of the original file a second time...


I haven't seem anyone say that transfer from the PTA repository to user space is instantaneous. I would expect that they are doing exactly that...restreaming the multiplexed data as if they were playing back the recording and rerecording it on the user partition.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

lparsons21 said:


> ...The only thing Dish has said at this time is that it gives 250 hours of HD, they don't expand on what that means at all. Unofficially it is being reported that you have 1TB available to the user, which doesn't seem to calculate right at all.
> 
> If they are only giving up that 12.5%, they must be auto-downloading a hell of a lot of stuff in 'their' space!....


I agree, it does not add up. I know from actually doing it a couple times that a 2 TB drive will hold about 470 hours of HD from DTV, assuming all of it is MPEG-4, which in my case it always is.

Now lets assume I have "Hopper" algorithm invoked that records and holds all prime for 8 days. Even with two of those days being Sundays, that's only a total of 94 hours of stored content. If you do the math, that is only 20% of the capacity of a 2 TB drive as implemented by DTV, and bit rates over on DISH are fairly equivalent as they use a nearly-identical system at nearly-identical rates. I should have room for 386 more hours of storage even beyond the Hopper stuff. If they are referring to a 1 TB partition, then the numbers almost make sense, but still not really.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, I wasn't really sure why Tomcat, as indicated by the enlarged lettering there, felt there would be a need to have to "cut out" one of the programs in the MPTS multiplex for the big four networks while deleting the other three  AFAIK the Dish system's PTAT feature appears to simply record with one tuner the entire MPTS multiplex sent during the local 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM prime time viewing slot (± any desired adjustments I understand) onto the reserved portion of the HDD for temporary storage of up to eight days, where the user then has the option of "copying and saving" (not "cut and deleting") any or all of the individual recorded shows from that obviously large integrated file to the user portion of the HDD where they may be stored indefinitely.


I never said they could not do that; what I said is that _this would be exactly what they would have to do_, and that if they did not, the whole stream is saved until all content from that stream is allowed to be deleted.

But that is revolutionary; no one has ever used that technology before in a consumer product, so unless DISH says "this is how it works" one has to assume that this is an obstacle that they must overcome (which they very well may have), and I was simply pointing that out.

It doesn't seem all that odd to be discussing the parameters of new technology and speculating about it since it is indeed new and we don't have an on-the-record explanation yet. But you are free not to participate if that is what best suits you.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

markrogo said:


> I find them designed to solve almost identical problems. Dish does make an assumption about general interest in network TV and passive recording thereof (although their intention is to allow auto saving of any of those programs). The whole client-server model with multi-tuner recording is essentially identical between the two.
> 
> The difference is limited to the fact that on DirecTV you can always record any 5 things you want, on Dish, you can record any 3 you want, or 6 during primetime -- so long as 4 are on network TV.
> 
> For folks like the rogo household, the recordings during primetime would be identical.


From the point of view of the hardware configuration of the respective units, I agree. Both are multi-tuner DVRs with 1TB of user available disk space.

The main difference is that the HR34 has 5 general purpose tuners and the Hopper has 2 general purpose tuners and 1 special tuner.

However, that hardware difference is supported by very different software. Where DirecTV has chosen to make their unit operate as a peer of their other HD DVRs and receivers, Dish has chosen to make their unit a standalone system.

DirecTV is focused on users that want maximum flexibility and customization of what is recorded. A DirecTV user can build very large systems, supporting massive numbers of tuners, and supporting a dozen or more viewing locations.

Dish is focused on users that want simpler, easier to use systems. A Dish user can flip on one feature and never have to program a prime time network recording again.

The Hopper is a natural extension of the Dish approach of seeing multi-tuner DVRs as central tuning devices as much, if not more, as central recording devices. It also reflects their view that most of their customers have 2 or 3 viewing locations and don't generally move around much.

The HR34 reflects DirecTV's approach of seeing multi-tuner DVRs has primarily recording devices that support a large number of viewing locations. They believe that their customers want to be able to support as many viewing locations as they have rooms.

The two company's advertising reflects the differing philosophies. Dish emphasizes their value. DirecTV emphasizes their features. Two different market segments.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

TomCat said:


> I agree, it does not add up. I know from actually doing it a couple times that a 2 TB drive will hold about 470 hours of HD from DTV, assuming all of it is MPEG-4, which in my case it always is.
> 
> Now lets assume I have "Hopper" algorithm invoked that records and holds all prime for 8 days. Even with two of those days being Sundays, that's only a total of 94 hours of stored content. If you do the math, that is only 20% of the capacity of a 2 TB drive as implemented by DTV, and bit rates over on DISH are fairly equivalent as they use a nearly-identical system at nearly-identical rates. I should have room for 386 more hours of storage even beyond the Hopper stuff. If they are referring to a 1 TB partition, then the numbers almost make sense, but still not really.


A transponder carries more than just the MPEG4 data of the video channels. What's the total bit rate of a transponder? That's what is being recorded.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Jerry_K said:


> However much space it takes, most of it is likely useless. Many things useless to me and my viewing preferences, many things (probably different) useless to you with your viewing preferences. A waste of energy. Who is going to go through 84 hours of recordings every week just to transfer a few hours to the user portion of the hard drive? Not me and probably not you either.


Well Jerry, I think you might just not get it. The appeal of this system goes up proportionally by the amount of big-4 prime you want to record, and also by how (short of a period of time) you want to save it. That makes it attractive for some folks, all but useless in that mode (which can be ignored or even turned off) for others.

Its a niche product, but according to the poll that niche is 25% wide, and that number is likely low since forum posters are traditionally high-use DVR owners and typically outside that niche.

You do not have to busy yourself resaving content. Set SLs for shows you want to save more than 8 days and they will be recorded using a dedicated tuner, which is exactly what you are doing now. Then let the Hopper algorithm take care of the rest, which you never even have to touch. The only penalty for that convenience is it takes 17-20% of a 2 TB drive to hold the Hopper stuff, but the advantage is you miss fewer recordings because you get a second chance to resave, you do not have to busy yourself setting up any casual big-4-prime recordings, and more tuners are potentially available at all times to avoid conflicts, assuming one or more of the recordings is big-4.

Its also a great way for trying new shows and then not having to either create or delete an SL for it; if you like it a lot, set a SL, if you like it casually, let Hopper handle it, and if you like it not at all, you don't have to delete a SL because you never had to set one.

It seems like the DISH system may not do exactly this, but it seems like you could just use the main recording partition and then begin to jettison day 8 or day 7 or day 6 if the drive starts getting really full, which means that 97% of the time or better, both conventional recording and Hopper recording can coexist, and for the other 3% or less of the time there is nothing standing in the way of using the entire drive just like we do now, and if we opt to fill it all the way with saved recordings, that would just put the Hopper algorithm on hiatus until the drive opens up again. At least that is the way I would do it. You could even not set an 8 day rule and just let it fill the drive until space is needed for a saved recording if you wanted to, without threatening the non-KUID programs already on the drive, meaning some folks would have prime going back up to 40 weeks (assumes no other recordings) with the ability to do conventional recordings any time they want to, just as they do now. That's pretty powerful potential, assuming it would be implemented that way.

Even you are one of the rare birds who just never records big-4 prime (which actually comprises a significant percentage of all DVR recordings on average) there is still an obvious appeal to that for just about everyone else.

But these are new concepts, and from the posts it seems like all of us are really not quite able to completely wrap our heads around the potential power promised here yet. I'm struggling a bit myself.

The Hopper as it stands might not be a game-changer, but the concept behind it definitely is, assuming DBS vendors can understand the potential and find clever ways to implement it. Here's hoping they will.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Jerry_K said:


> From what I read you have to transfer the show from the reserved (unwatchable) portion of the drive to the user (watchable) portion of the drive.
> 
> Why not just record it to the watchable portion in the first place?


Nope. You can watch it in the reserved space, you only need to move it to the user space if you want to keep a particular show for more than the 8 days.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

TomCat said:


> ... It doesn't seem all that odd to be discussing the parameters of new technology and speculating about it since it is indeed new and we don't have an on-the-record explanation yet. But you are free not to participate if that is what best suits you.


Why do you conclude from what I wrote that I am not interested in participating in a discussion about the technology behind the PTAT feature? I most certainly am interested, and I'd argue as well that definitely should be a part of the purpose for this thread.

What I was questioning in the spirit of this point in the discussion (or at least that was my intent) was why you raised the prospect of a needed "cut and delete" capability on individual programs within the recorded prime time MPTS multiplex file which as you claim is impossible, when it appears Dish is only using a "copy and save" method to the user partition of individual programs out of that MPTS file?

Sorry for the misunderstanding ...


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

I voted "Great idea; I can't wait for DTV to offer this."

I'm not sure if DirecTV will ever offer anything like this, and if they don't, that's fine too. It certainly won't get me to switch to Dish, but I can see many instances in which I would find this very convenient.

One of the few highlights of CES, IMHO... 

~Alan


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## Jerry_K (Oct 22, 2006)

Tom Cat,

Rather than copy and paste post 82 and fill up a lot of space I will just say thanks for some of the clarifications and how you see it might be useful. 

Now that we have a couple of recordings on the HR34 I tallied up the total number of hours. It is 50 hours and the space remaining is 90 percent. A quick figuring on a 2T drive makes each hour of HD about 4 gig. So four channels, three hours, eight days is 96 hours of recording. Or on a 2T drive less than 20%. 

So a good implementation of this feature which perhaps reserves only 500 gig might be useful. If one tuner of the HR34 recorded this way I might become used to it and even applaud it. 

There are some pitfalls with the stategy when the silly kids games are playing on the majors. For example when the kids game with the odd shaped ball with points on the end started up this fall we missed some of my wifes favorite program because of poor performance of the children requiring extra time which the networks gave to the children rather than punish them for poor performance and putting the proper programming on at the proper time. 

So while it would be nice to get these things auto recorded, it would be bad when the networks cave to the children and ignore the adults.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Let's talk about the comparison betwixt the HR34 and the new hopper/joey a bit.

Tuners - the HR34 has 5 and the Hopper has 3 with PrimeTime aiding a bit in the useage of the fewer tuners. But overall, HR34 has more.

Trickplay - with the D* approach, trickplay is only doable on the HR34 and other DVRs, not on receivers at all. With E*, trickplay is doable on everything in the mix.

Recording - with the D* approach, new recording on the HR34 can be done on the HR34 and any other receiver, but not any other DVR. With the E* approach, recording can be set from anywhere.

There is some guesswork and opinion about how recording would work with a dual hopper setup. Some think it will automagically pick the available Hopper, others aren't so sure. Basically it appears that no official word on how it actually does work has come from E* in a dual-hopper install.

Unified lists - With D*, all the available things for viewing show in a unified list, just as with E*. But it appears that with E* the todo list will also be unified. With a single HR34 and no other HRs in the mix the effect with D* is the same. But with more HRs in the mix, then no unified todo list exists.

So far, I think both systems will meet the intended users needs. For the power user, or those with a ton of receiver needs, D* may be the better choice, but that is not a given. Depends on how you use that slew of receivers.

But from the majority of the users that are not represented here much, either one would most likely work just fine, and the decision on which service is back to which one has the programming you want, just like it is now.

there is this too. Average home today is 2.6 people with a couple TVs. The younger and more tech savvy are using lots of things to view video and not just the TV. Touchpad, cell phones and other devices are being used by this crowd much more.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"markrogo" said:


> It has 2TB, or twice the space of an HR34. I'm unclear on the need to start reclaiming the relatively small amount of space this is using for the network broadcasts.
> 
> It will let you save your favorite series like normal and also eventually tag stuff via a smartphone/tablet app for saving as well (those features not yet implemented).


I have 2 tb esatas on my DirecTV dvrs, so it makes a huge difference to me, as I have them more than half filled usually.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"HoTat2" said:


> As well as DIRECTV's need to sacrifice more bandwidth to implement such a feature by having to duplicate the big four network feeds for the NY and LA markets on both spot and CONUS beams as I pointed out here.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2938520#post2938520


Those big four are already on a conus transponder. That wouldn't change.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"HoTat2" said:


> Yeah ... I suppose they could do this once "again" I guess. Because interestingly enough DIRECTV actually did this for a some time in duplicating the big four network HD local feeds for the NY and LA markets onto both CONUS and spotbeams. And no one really understood why the need for this apparent waste of bandwidth instead of simply doing what they had always done with their SD versions of transmitting them on CONUS beams for DNS service and then remapping them into the local channel range in the guide.
> 
> Wonder if DIRECTV was thinking of some type of future PTAT feature on a multi-tuner DVR way back then?


That had to do with mdu and moving from meg 4 to meg 2 and which sats they where on and all kinds of other hardware changing issues in regards to having them on conus and spots.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"NR4P" said:


> I was at CES and spent time with the Dish network folks and got the skinny on the Hopper.
> 
> Big sign says "records 6 shows at once".
> Small print says it has 3 tuners.
> ...


Can you have the unit automatically save shows from this type of recording, or does it have to be done manually every time?

Why is it that i feel like dish is always playing games to get to their number counts more so than anyone else, like counting all their on demand programs as hd channels, even though only one receive could actually get those, and they where on demand rather than linear channels?


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Lack of trickplay on the non-DVR's would rather defeat the purpose of HR34 for me. 

The interesting thing is that for those of who us who can get high speed internet and went with DirecTv because of their offerings and not their method of delivery, VOIP could very well change everything. 

Of course it would help if they allows allowed trickplay, and they'll need to widen their catalog, but you can see the hints of what's to come with all the various streaming options we already have.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"TomCat" said:


> That is actually pretty clever. A typical transponder sends 4 HD locals in a MTPS (multiple program transport stream) which is a single data stream. A typical DVR demultiplexes the program of interest, sends that to the tuner and HDD, and ignores the rest. This concept turns that on its head, by recording the MPTS as a single stream to the HDD, then doing the demux at playback instead. Technically, that is actually very simple.
> 
> I do the very same thing at work for delaying multiple network TV sat feeds on servers for stations (record then play back the entire MPTS), and here is the catch: you must either keep the entire MPTS (or whatever timed section of it) to save a recording, or delete the entire thing. You can't save Whitney and delete the other 3 shows that shared that transport stream originally (that aired at the same time from the other networks), as they are all tied up together on the HDD.
> 
> ...


Do we know if they are recording the big four from a national feed, or are they recording just the lil feeds so each market will be their own channels. And if so, how is that going to work when your in a market that doesn't have Lil or has some but not all, or worse yet, if your in a market in a fees dispute with dish?


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

JonW said:


> Lack of trickplay on the non-DVR's would rather defeat the purpose of HR34 for me.
> 
> The interesting thing is that for those of who us who can get high speed internet and went with DirecTv because of their offerings and not their method of delivery, VOIP could very well change everything.
> 
> Of course it would help if they allows allowed trickplay, and they'll need to widen their catalog, but you can see the hints of what's to come with all the various streaming options we already have.


With RVU clients you can do trick play.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"lparsons21" said:


> I think it is evolutionary rather than revolutionary. If you ignore for just a moment, the 3 tuners vice 5 of the HR34 and just look at how it all works together, it is a logical step from what we have at D* for MRV.
> 
> The hopper/joey combo gives you full functionality with your recordings on every box, which is not true today with MRV. Trick play comes to mind.
> 
> ...


Um, what? I have full functionality with my recordings on all my DirecTV dvrs and non dvrs. That makes no sense at all.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Do we know if they are recording the big four from a national feed, or are they recording just the lil feeds so each market will be their own channels. And if so, how is that going to work when your in a market that doesn't have Lil or has some but not all, or worse yet, if your in a market in a fees dispute with dish?


"PrimeTime Anytime is only available with local channels broadcast in HD, which may not be available in all markets."

http://www.dishnetwork.com/redirect...&utm_campaign=hopper&WT.mc_id=BSGNHOPPER_3564


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"P Smith" said:


> It would be very easy to post real numbers using external drive. Those +/- 50% precision ... well, not for me.


I filled up an entire 2 tb hard drive once, with hd of course, and counted the hours and space and did the calculations. It's 4 gigs to an hour of recording for hd as a rule of thumb. End of calculations. At least for DirecTV.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> I filled up an entire 2 tb hard drive once, with hd of course, and counted the hours and space and did the calculations. It's 4 gigs to an hour of recording for hd as a rule of thumb. End of calculations. At least for DirecTV.


Give me a day or two, I'll try bring real numbers for DTV recordings...


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Um, what? I have full functionality with my recordings on all my DirecTV dvrs and non dvrs. That makes no sense at all.


Really? Here's the real way it works with the HR34 and all the MRV setups.

DVRs can use trickplay, ff,rew and so forth
DVRs can't set a recording on the HR34 or remote DVR in older MRV setups

Receivers can't do trickplay
Receivers can set a recording on the HR34 or remote DVR

So no, you don't have full functionality.

On the Hopper/Joey setup all boxes can do all things except for PIP which is Hopper only.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"TomCat" said:


> I never said they could not do that; what I said is that this would be exactly what they would have to do, and that if they did not, the whole stream is saved until all content from that stream is allowed to be deleted.
> 
> But that is revolutionary; no one has ever used that technology before in a consumer product, so unless DISH says "this is how it works" one has to assume that this is an obstacle that they must overcome (which they very well may have), and I was simply pointing that out.
> 
> It doesn't seem all that odd to be discussing the parameters of new technology and speculating about it since it is indeed new and we don't have an on-the-record explanation yet. But you are free not to participate if that is what best suits you.


I wouldn't be surprised If they did overcome that, since I think they have been working on this for several years, just as DirecTV has probably been working on the hr34 for several years. You have to give them credit on that if they did figure that out.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

lparsons21 said:


> Really? Here's the real way it works with the HR34 and all the MRV setups.
> 
> DVRs can use trickplay, ff,rew and so forth
> DVRs can't set a recording on the HR34 or remote DVR in older MRV setups
> ...


HD receivers can do trickplay if playing a recording via MRV.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

lparsons21 said:


> Really? Here's the real way it works with the HR34 and all the MRV setups.
> 
> DVRs can use trickplay, ff,rew and so forth
> DVRs can't set a recording on the HR34 or remote DVR in older MRV setups
> ...


HR34's are designed to be used with RVU clients. So comparing a non RVU client functionality to a Joey is comparing apples to oranges.
With an RVU client the control is the same as a Joey is.

If you want to compare a Joey to a HD DVR then the HD DVR can do things that the Joey can't like record 2 HD shows while streaming a show from the HR34. So either keep the technology at the same level or look at all functionality.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"lparsons21" said:


> Let's talk about the comparison betwixt the HR34 and the new hopper/joey a bit.
> 
> Tuners - the HR34 has 5 and the Hopper has 3 with PrimeTime aiding a bit in the useage of the fewer tuners. But overall, HR34 has more.
> 
> ...


Not sure why you don't think all units on DirecTV can't do trick play for recordings. They do.

I think a better comparison is if you compare a hr34 with three rvu clients to a hopper system with four tvs using joeys. Now do your compare and contrast, because I think those two models are almost identical in every way except thenumber of Things they can record, although that can vary greatly on both machines based in how you use your system. In general, multiple dvrs is not the expected norm for people with hr34s.

I seem to have been way behind on this thread. 

In the end, while I applause dish for a very innovative solution to recording the big four, if you can't use trick play for shows recorded that way, it's worthless to me, and since no one has said you can fast forward thorugh commercials, which I read can not be done, then it's worthless to me, but a great idea none the less.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Shades228" said:


> With RVU clients you can do trick play.


And all units can do trick play on recordings regardless of what they are, so I don't know why that one person keeps saying hey can't. He's wrong about that.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> Not sure why you don't think all units on DirecTV can't do trick play for recordings. They do.
> 
> I think a better comparison is if you compare a hr34 with three rvu clients to a hopper system with four tvs using joeys. Now do your compare and contrast, because I think those two models are almost identical in every way except thenumber of Things they can record, although that can vary greatly on both machines based in how you use your system. In general, multiple dvrs is not the expected norm for people with hr34s.
> 
> ...


If what I read is correct you can only use 1 hopper and 2 joeys.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"David Ortiz" said:


> "PrimeTime Anytime is only available with local channels broadcast in HD, which may not be available in all markets."
> 
> http://www.dishnetwork.com/redirects/promotion/hopper/default.aspx?WT.srch=1&KBID=2390&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=hopper&WT.mc_id=BSGNHOPPER_3564


Thanks! So it's your locals it will record. That makes sense logistically, but also means that in some markets this won't be as advantageous as in others.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"P Smith" said:


> Give me a day or two, I'll try bring real numbers for DTV recordings...


I just did. I have seen it with my own eyes. 2tb drive recorded 816 episodes of espn news on espn news channel, and only that. That's 408 hours of recording. And remember, there is ~100 gig that is reserved for DirecTV. So it's a close enough approximation and average to easily say its 1 hour =4 gigs.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"lparsons21" said:


> Really? Here's the real way it works with the HR34 and all the MRV setups.
> 
> DVRs can use trickplay, ff,rew and so forth
> DVRs can't set a recording on the HR34 or remote DVR in older MRV setups
> ...


On live tv, no, but on recorded content yes you do have trick play on all units. Your not specifying that. Your saying at all, and that's not right.

And again, look at rvu clients with an hr34 and yes they can do all that, which is what will eventually be the norm for most hr34 homes.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Here are some Figures I used when I first bought a 2 TB Drive.

Here is the Calulation of how many hours of MPEG-4 HD I can Record on my 2 TB HR23-700 which is 528 hours.

Subtract 100 Gb from the drive size (2000 Gb) for housekeeping space reserved by DirecTV.

HD MPEG-4 uses ~ 3.6 GB/hour (or 180 GB for 50 hours).

2000 Gb minus 100 Gb = 1900 Gb. 1900 Gb/3.6 Gb per hour = 528 hours of MPEG-4 HD Recording Capacity.

1 TB = 250 hours of MPEG-4 Recording Capacity.
2 TB = 528 hours of MPEG-4 Recording Capacity.

So 500 GB minus 100 GB = 400 Hours/3.6 = 111 Hours of MPEG-4 HD Storage Capacity.

However, if you are also Recording SD Recordings then the Calculation will change but 111 Hours is the Best Ballpark Figure for you with a 500 GB HR24!!!


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Shades228" said:


> If what I read is correct you can only use 1 hopper and 2 joeys.


I hadn't read about those limits on the joeys. Sounds like its basically an rvu system like that of dtv. I assume this means you can't do any live tv on a joey if your recording on all three tuners at the same time on a hopper?

Or better, this new dish system is just like an hr34 and rvu clients, except, it has two less tuners, and no pip, although it can record all four networks in primetime on one tuner if you get all your lil via sat and comes with a 2tb drive stock.

That seems like a more fair comparison of the two to me.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

That's about 80 hours of stuff filling up a hard disk. I record about ten hours a week from the three networks -- NBC isn't showing anything of interest to me this month at least -- which works fine for me.

I voted "Ho hum" rather than "bad idea."


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Richierich" said:


> Here are some Figures I used when I first bought a 2 TB Drive.
> 
> Here is the Calulation of how many hours of MPEG-4 HD I can Record on my 2 TB HR23-700 which is 528 hours.
> 
> ...


What did you record?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> On live tv, no, but on recorded content yes you do have trick play on all units. Your not specifying that. Your saying at all, and that's not right.
> 
> And again, look at rvu clients with an hr34 and yes they can do all that, which is what will eventually be the norm for most hr34 homes.


Everything I've read here and elsewhere says you cannot do trickplay with Hxx receivers, only with HRs. Can you provide a link to something that says differently?

EDIT: I just did a bit of searching on my own. I stand corrected, trickplay on recorded events is possible with the Hxx receivers. Apologies for the misunderstanding on my part.

rvu clients could do it I suppose, there are so very few of them that they aren't much a part of the picture right now. At some point in the future, when rvu comes out on lower end models and other brands besides Samsung, I would agree with you, that is what the HR34 was mostly designed to deal with. But that's not now, nor the really close in future from all I read.

And yeah, it isn't quite fair to compare the hopper/joey setup because it is more like HR34/rvu with using older tech a stopgap until rvu becomes generally available.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> Those big four are already on a conus transponder. That wouldn't change.


The issue would be if one needed a national "distant" to get all four networks. Three networks from a spot for your area and the fourth from ConUS would require two tuners (unless any fill ins were mirrored on a spot).



inkahauts said:


> Do we know if they are recording the big four from a national feed, or are they recording just the lil feeds so each market will be their own channels. And if so, how is that going to work when your in a market that doesn't have Lil or has some but not all, or worse yet, if your in a market in a fees dispute with dish?


As noted by others, these are in market locals. In dispute markets DISH cannot deliver any affiliate of the disputed channel so that one would be missing. In short markets (markets missing a network) DISH imports their choice of local station (not the same national feed) to make sure people get all four networks wherever possible.

If DirecTV decided to add the feature they could mirror the national distant on their spotbeams -- any distant they can leagally deliver would do.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I hadn't read about those limits on the joeys. Sounds like its basically an rvu system like that of dtv. I assume this means you can't do any live tv on a joey if your recording on all three tuners at the same time on a hopper?
> 
> Or better, this new dish system is just like an hr34 and rvu clients, except, it has two less tuners, and no pip, although it can record all four networks in primetime on one tuner if you get all your lil via sat and comes with a 2tb drive stock.
> 
> That seems like a more fair comparison of the two to me.


I think I read that you can use more joeys than that, but the threads here and in other places makes my head spin!! 

Yeah, the HR34 with only rvu clients is the closest to the same thing that the hopper/joey setup is. As to PIP, well the hopper does it, but not the joeys.

And if all 3 tuners on the hopper are busy and another joey wants to view something, then the choices are watch a recording, or watch something one of the other units is watching.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

lparsons21 said:


> I think I read that you can use more joeys than that, but the threads here and in other places makes my head spin!!


One of the official diagrams has two hoppers and three joeys for a five room installation ... or one hopper and one joey for two rooms. I'm sure there are other possibilities.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"James Long" said:


> One of the official diagrams has two hoppers and three joeys for a five room installation ... or one hopper and one joey for two rooms. I'm sure there are other possibilities.


I need a chart! 

Can one Joey see things from both hopers at the same time?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> I need a chart!
> 
> Can one Joey see things from both hopers at the same time?


They told about 'seamless' aggregation of two XiP813, perhaps list of all tuners would be common for all clients?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

James Long said:


> One of the official diagrams has two hoppers and three joeys for a five room installation ... or one hopper and one joey for two rooms. I'm sure there are other possibilities.


While I realize its based on a fair amount of speculative inference. From what has been presented so far with nothing beyond the existence of the XiP Solo and Duo Node devices, it seems the evidence points to a only a two Hopper maximum.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> I need a chart!
> 
> Can one Joey see things from both hopers at the same time?





P Smith said:


> They told about 'seamless' aggregation of two XiP813, perhaps list of all tuners would be common for all clients?


Yes, and my bet is that the aggregation is facilitated by the two satellite outputs of the XiP Duo Node to the Hoppers being internally connected with a MoCA crossover bridge similar to DIRECTV's SWiM-16


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> I hadn't read about those limits on the joeys. Sounds like its basically an rvu system like that of dtv. I assume this means you can't do any live tv on a joey if your recording on all three tuners at the same time on a hopper?
> 
> Or better, this new dish system is just like an hr34 and rvu clients, except, it has two less tuners, and no pip, although it can record all four networks in primetime on one tuner if you get all your lil via sat and comes with a 2tb drive stock.
> 
> That seems like a more fair comparison of the two to me.





James Long said:


> One of the official diagrams has two hoppers and three joeys for a five room installation ... or one hopper and one joey for two rooms. I'm sure there are other possibilities.


I was reading an article that was worded poorly and made it seem like a Joey had a tuner as well. I read the official thread on the other side of the forum and it states up for 4 Joey's per Hopper.


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## markrogo (Sep 18, 2007)

Titan25 said:


> From the point of view of the hardware configuration of the respective units, I agree.
> 
> (Lots of stuff deleted)
> 
> The two company's advertising reflects the differing philosophies. Dish emphasizes their value. DirecTV emphasizes their features. Two different market segments.


I think that's a pretty fair characterization. That said, more than a few people could make do with either box. Hopper certainly does nothing that would make me switch to Dish from DirecTV (and probably does nothing to make any switch the other way either). I do believe DirecTV will eventually market the HR34 as a central hub with thin client boxes (or none), which mimics what Dish showed at CES.

But you're certainly correct in the characterization of the set-and-forget model with Hopper vs. the more flexible model of the HR34.


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