# How to hook up speakers



## Davenlr

Ok, I was thinking of hooking up two bookshelf speakers (Klipsch KB-15s) on each side of the entertainment center, rather than just the one pair I have now.

My amp is a Denon. It specs Speaker A,B as 6-16 ohms, and Speaker A+B as 12-16 ohms. It recommends not using speakers with a lower rating (ex 4 ohms) at high volumes for long periods due to overheating.

So, the speakers are rated: NOMINAL IMPEDANCE: 8 ohms compatible 

So, if you were to hook two up per side, how would you wire it?

Both on Speaker A in series (16 ohms): Amp + to Speaker1 +, Speaker1 - to speaker2 +, speaker2 - to amp -

Both on Speaker A in Parallel (4 ohms): Amp 1 to speaker1 and speaker2 +. Amp - to speaker1 and speaker2 -

One on each Speaker A and Speaker B...(Which I think would be the same as hooking both up to SpeakerA in parallel...i.e. 4 ohms.

Amp power is 75W/ch at 8 ohms, 110W/ch at 4 ohms, and no rating for 16 ohms. Each speaker is rated at 85W/ch.


----------



## ke3ju

I would go with "One on each Speaker A and Speaker B...", as then you have the option of turning either set on or off, and the option of having both sets on (4 ohms) to pull the most power out of your amp.


----------



## Carl Spock

You should be OK hooking them up in parallel. If the amp runs hot to the touch - warm is fine - or if it shuts down, then you'll have to try another option.

Impedance is not a set thing. It varies with frequency. Many manufacturers play fast and loose with their impedance ratings. I rarely trust them.


----------



## CCarncross

I highly recommend wiring one pair to the A leads and the other pair to the B leads..That way you can listen to either pair or both pairs, and can shut one pair or the other down possibly with the remote....dont know why you would want have 2 sets of speakers set up next to each other though..quite puzzling that one? That Denon is probably one of the lower end models as its only rated at 75wpc....I have a 2809CI which is a great headend but I'm getting ready to add a Rotel RMB-1575 for some real power...


----------



## Cholly

Why would you want two speakers on each side of your entertainment center? The major amount of audio in any program source would be from the center channel. You haven't said what your system configuration is, but if you're looking for better performance from your system, I'd recommend upgrading the center channel and if your bass is weak, upgrading your subwoofer.. Of course, you could always add a pair of KB-15's as presence speakers if your Denon supports them.


----------



## CCarncross

Having 2 pairs of speakers side by side can definitely ruin the sound stage and imaging...not something I would ever do either...but I try not to cast dispersions on other people's setups....even when they are wrong:lol:


----------



## Davenlr

I have a small living room. The speakers are about 6 feet apart. I was going to angle one set toward the middle of the room, and the other set toward the side walls (kinda like the bose speakers do) to see if it would give me more "width".

I dont use the center channel or rears for music, but do have a 100W Polk sub with the crossover set at 100hz.

The Denon is a AVR-687. I currently have two fronts (Klipsch), a center (Optimus), and two rear surrounds (Pioneer bookshelf speakers on the floor behind the sofa). The amp has outputs for two "side speakers" as well (7.1), but I have never hooked anything to those, because I have no sources for 7.1 surround, no any room to practically mount them in my living room which is only 12x14 with 3 doorways in it.

I am open to suggestions... Replace the center channel with one of the KB-15's? Replace the rear surrounds with the KB-15s? Try to figure out how to put them on the sides of the room for 7.1? Just keep em in the box  ?

Thanks for the tips so far. Will be making notes.


----------



## Cholly

Your center channel speaker may or may not be used normally for music, depending on the surround mode selected. Not being familiar with Denon receivers, I won't comment further 
However, I'd reiterate--don't try to use 2 pairs of speakers for fronts -- ever.
Rather, arrange your front speakers according to the manufacturer's suggested spacing. Normally, your front speakers should be placed equally from the side walls. Paradigm suggests they be spaced apart equal to 3/4 the distance from the listening position. Another recommendation is that the speakers and listener position form an equilateral triangle ( distance from listening position to each speaker and distance between speakers should be equal).


----------



## CCarncross

Davenlr said:


> *I have a small living room. The speakers are about 6 feet apart. I was going to angle one set toward the middle of the room, and the other set toward the side walls (kinda like the bose speakers do) to see if it would give me more "width".*
> 
> I dont use the center channel or rears for music, but do have a 100W Polk sub with the crossover set at 100hz.
> 
> The Denon is a AVR-687. I currently have two fronts (Klipsch), a center (Optimus), and two rear surrounds (Pioneer bookshelf speakers on the floor behind the sofa). The amp has outputs for two "side speakers" as well (7.1), but I have never hooked anything to those, because I have no sources for 7.1 surround, no any room to practically mount them in my living room which is only 12x14 with 3 doorways in it.
> 
> I am open to suggestions... Replace the center channel with one of the KB-15's? Replace the rear surrounds with the KB-15s? Try to figure out how to put them on the sides of the room for 7.1? Just keep em in the box  ?
> 
> Thanks for the tips so far. Will be making notes.


Think about investing in a better pair of front speakers and center channel...that is how you can get more width, or in audio terms, a better soundstage...


----------



## Davenlr

CCarncross said:


> Think about investing in a better pair of front speakers and center channel...that is how you can get more width, or in audio terms, a better soundstage...


As you can see from the attached picture, which is wall left to wall right, there isnt much space in my little house for any bigger speakers, or taller ones.

Sorry about the crappy standard def picture on the TV, but thats the best Directv gives me on my favorite channel


----------



## TXD16

Davenlr said:


> As you can see from the attached picture, which is wall left to wall right, there isnt much space in my little house for any bigger speakers, or taller ones.
> 
> Sorry about the crappy standard def picture on the TV, but thats the best Directv gives me on my favorite channel


From your picture, your speakers all look fine, but I think you'd get a little better sound if you moved the center kitty a little to the left. :lol:


----------



## Davenlr

zkc16 said:


> From your picture, your speakers all look fine, but I think you'd get a little better sound if you moved the center kitty a little to the left. :lol:


You laugh, but she likes the warmth from the amp. That cost me having to move the 60" TV from its stand, to a wall mount about 12" higher, so she wouldnt block the screen


----------



## CCarncross

Your center speaker should be where the cat is....:lol:


----------



## Davenlr

CCarncross said:


> Your center speaker should be where the cat is....:lol:


Yep. Ive been reading (amid all the arguing) over on AVSForum, and the conclusion I have come to is #1, you are precisely correct, and #2, ONE of the KB-15 Klipsch speakers should be the center channel speaker, since the consensus over there is all THREE speakers SHOULD be identical, and using special "horizontal" center channel speakers is really more to accommodate the ease of placement, than the sound.

SO I replaced the Optimus Center channel speaker (89 db SPL) with a KB-15 (93 db SPL) and reset the amp so all three speakers were set to -0 db.

It sounds much better now. The Optimus did not have very good highs at all, and soundtracks sounded kind of "muffled". Now, they sound much better.

Unfortunately, that leaves me one spare KB-15. Oh well, better than using two per channel like I was planning on 

Since they also said the speaker should be on the vertical axis (I seriously doubt I will hear the difference with that one speaker being on its side, or set vertically, I am going to roll out the entertainment cabinet tomorrow, and rearrange the Amp and some other components to see if I can get the speaker in there vertically right UNDER the cat  The cabinet and components need to be vacuumed and cleaned anyway, and I need to remove the Tivo series 3 on the left side bottom, since Im not using it anyway right now. Can probably get rid of the DVD Recorder as well, since I dont record on it, and the PS3 can play DVD and Blu Ray.


----------



## Cholly

You're moving in the right direction. Given that you have doors on both sides of your installation, you are limited regarding front speaker placement. It ould be ideal if you were able to place your left and right speakers either side of your TV, but that doesn't seem possible.Now that you're using one of your KB-15's for center channel, I agree with the folks over at AVSforum that it should be vertical. If you had a speaker specifically designed for center channel use, it should be horizontally oriented, since in all probability it would have 2 symmetrically positioned speakers, usually 5 inches or more in diameter, with a tweeter centered between the two.. And, yes, the center should be up high, where the kitty is.  If your Denon doesn't have automatic speaker balancing, it would prove helpful if you wwere do have a sound level meter to assist in the task


----------



## Carl Spock

Davenlr, don't get ruled by orthodoxy. There may the be best way to do something and then there is the realistic way to do something. Yes, tweeters do have dispersion patterns. Yes, they often want to beam more sideways than up and down. But your center channel is much closer to the floor than the side speakers. The center speaker's location will make a bigger difference in its sound than the properties of the tweeter. With the center closer to the floor, besides adding up to 3 dB to its bass output, the treble is more likely to bounce off the floor back to your ears. That will color the speaker's sound more than the tweeter's dispersion pattern.

Leave your center speaker where it is. It's a real world. I wouldn't rearrange your system, and rearrange your cat, unless you really want to redo your hardware. Even then, set everything up the way the cat and you like it. I have deliberately left an amp available for a cat to sleep on many times. 

And as for your extra speaker, there is really no difference between 6.1 and 7.1 surround sound system. The rear center speakers in a 7.1 system are in mono, so a 6.1 surround system with a single center rear speaker is really the same thing. I think you are on your way to a 6.1 surround sound system.


----------



## Davenlr

Carl Spock said:


> And as for your extra speaker, there is really no difference between 6.1 and 7.1 surround sound system. The rear center speakers in a 7.1 system are in mono, so a 6.1 surround system with a single center rear speaker is really the same thing. I think you are on your way to a 6.1 surround sound system.


OK. So I run a third speaker wire under the house from the media closet to the back of the couch, hook the two current speakers up as the side stereo surround speakers, and move them forward from the corners a bit, then add the KB15 centered behind the couch, correct?

Since all my sources are 5.1, does the amp just not send anything out on the two sides when playing 5.1 material? I think the only 7.1 stuff I have is maybe a couple blu-ray discs.

Cholly: The Denon has auto speaker leveling.


----------



## Carl Spock

You'd need a 6.1 or 7.1 amp to provide the rear center information, with different Dolby Digital surround processor. That would be in the next amp you'd buy. Put the speaker in the back of a closet for now.

These amps are capable of synthesizing the rear center information from 5.1 sources. It's not as good as a discrete 6.1/7.1 source but it's better than nothing.


----------



## Davenlr

Carl Spock said:


> You'd need a 6.1 or 7.1 amp to provide the rear center information, with different Dolby Digital surround processor. That would be in the next amp you'd buy. Put the speaker in the back of a closet for now.
> 
> These amps are capable of synthesizing the rear center information from 5.1 sources. It's not as good as a discrete 6.1/7.1 source but it's better than nothing.


My current amp is a 7.1 amp. I just never hooked anything to the "side" outputs.


----------



## Carl Spock

Well, there you go.

Hook up the surrounds to the side outputs and the extra speaker to one of the center ones.


----------



## Davenlr

OK, thanks. Will do that just as soon as I grab a roll of speaker wire and crawl up under the house again. Appreciate everyones help.

Kitty is happy her warming amp isnt moving


----------



## Cholly

At the risk of offending members who have invested huge sums in home theater installations, let's get this straight: in a 6.1 or 7.1 surround system, the sixth and seven channels are derived from the surrounds. Dolby Digital is a 5.1 system,where the 5 channels are as follows: front left and right, center, and *side surrounds* -- note the emphasis citing sides, not backs as one commonly finds in home theater installations (my family room is prewired with 6.1 configuration, conforming to the typical rear surrounds plus center rear -- oh, well.).
Here's a very good article presenting the case for 5.1 surround: http://www.digitaltrends.com/opinion/dont-get-stampeded-by-the-71-parade/

We can all be enticed by Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, but in truth (sadly) most of us will not benefit from these two formats even though one or the other may be available on our Blu-ray players. Further, quite often, side surround speakers may not be an option for us due to room layout. Therefore, we're constrained to use rear speakers to fill our sound fields. In my home, we have four rooms with surround sound systems. In all four, we're stuck with using rear surround speaker configurations. Two rooms have 5:1 surround and two have 6:1 surround.
Looking back at what you currently have for speakers, I'd suggest the following: get your two surround speakers up off the floor. If possible, have them on the side walls even with or slightly behind the seating position, placed a few feet above ear level. Keep your two existing KB-15 front speakers as they are. Try using one of your other KB-15 speakers in place of the Optimus to see if sound quality is improved. If not, I'd replace the Polks with the KB-15's as ssurrounds and possibly at a future date, replace the Optimus with a better center channel speaker. I'd probably change the crossover frequency on the sub to 120 or 150 Hz as an experiment. Definitely, if you change speakers around, rerun the speaker setup. If you're still inclined to go with a 6:1 configuration, don't be surprised if it doesn't knock your socks off.


----------



## MysteryMan

A good source for information on this topic is Dolby Home Theater Speaker Placement and Set Up Guide.


----------



## olguy

MysteryMan said:


> A good source for information on this topic is Dolby Home Theater Speaker Placement and Set Up Guide.


And here's the clicky thing for it.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/setup/connection-guide/home-theater-speaker-guide/index.html


----------



## Cholly

olguy said:


> And here's the clicky thing for it.
> 
> http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/setup/connection-guide/home-theater-speaker-guide/index.html


Good source of info! I was glad to see that they say the center should be as close to ear level as possible. I was a bit surprised to see that they recommend the surounds ge at ear level, as I'd previously read that the surrounds should be a few feed above ear level but angled downward.[


----------



## olguy

Impossible to have my center at ear level. It would be in the center of my 60" Mits. :lol: And like the OP my center has to be on the lower shelf just above the floor. But the POLK CS10 which it is and the CS20 have a horizontal surface that will make the speaker face perpendicular to the floor or it can be turned over and then the speaker face has about a 10 - 15 degree angle so the speakers are tilted back and pointing pretty close to my head.


----------



## lugnutathome

For normal sized listening environments this makes sense as most speakers (despite the marketing claims to the contrary) have a very narrow "sweet spot" and the recommended configuration will yield best results with a HTIAB on up.

One of the best things about the Klipsch loudspeakers are the horns. There is no sweet "spot" as the high frequency dispersion spreads outward all directions instead of being "focused".

In my big theater room I run 2 RF7s (dual 10 in cones and the big throated horn) up 48 inches off the floor. I run the center RF7 about 24 inches above the floor (TV is on the 48 inch high shelf with the RF7s) and my 7.1 RS7 surrounds are mounted as indicated in the "clicky thing" except they are up nearly 10 ft above the floor. The very rear pair is just below ceiling height angled down and the mid surrounds are about 10 inches below the ceiling flat to the wall.

Coupled with an RSW15 the effect is staggeringly like going to a high end movie theater with wide expansive sound. The room is 25 ft wide and about 45 ft deep.

If I were using anything but Klipsch all would need to be near ear level and would not deliver the spacious sound rather a more direct in your face effect. Like I get in the video game room's set up.

I've used dipole designs in the past and these do the Bose dispersal type thing creating a larger soundstage but in the end I prefer the Kipsch horns to do the deed from a single point.

If you feel you must add presence to your system you could run smaller "B" speakers mounted up fairly high in the front angled down and slightly out to bounce their sound off the ceiling and side walls. You'll need to properly set crossover so you aren't killing the little critters and thaty could take away some of the fullness from your mains.

THX recommends an 80hz crossover and many surround type speakers have a low of 80 +/- 3 db which is a significant amount of energy variance at their tail out point of 80. I like to run my smaller systems at a 90 crossover, allowing the fronts to share bass with the sub and then set the sub so it is transparent with music material and only really mouths off with true LFE material or really heavy bass material is sent it's way.

The OP seems to want a dispersed effect and I agree dual fronts just don't cut it. Better served to look at the front end speakers and upgrade them all with ones that better suit their tastes. Just advise one to be careful when auditioning speakers. Make sure the amp driving them does not have any loudness contours, tone controls, EQ set to anything but FLAT "0" (middle notch on the control dial or slider), use your reference material for comparison, and if they sound wrong flat than move on.

Don "once I found Klipsch reference series speakers I was done looking" Bolton

Placement is a PITA because the room layout, items in the room, etc all conspire to draw out portions of the sonic wave. Similarly these items will enhance other parts of the wave. It takes lots of trial and error


Cholly said:


> Good source of info! I was glad to see that they say the center should be as close to ear level as possible. I was a bit surprised to see that they recommend the surrounds be at ear level, as I'd previously read that the surrounds should be a few feed above ear level but angled downward.[


----------



## Shades228

Very few rooms will ever be setup for optimum speaker setup. It's just not something that architect's care about when they design floor plans. Even if the room was setup perfectly for speakers there are other issues that can arise. There's a thread about room setups that we talked about awhile ago. 

All most of us can do is deal with what we have. Buying good bookshelf speakers and investing in shelving can do wonders for speaker placement. After that it's just playing with settings that you have available to make it sound the best to you.


----------



## Davenlr

I currently have two pair of speaker wires in the wall for the two rear speakers. To hook up a 6.1 system, can I use one of those pair for the two positve L and R sides, and use the other pair for positive single rear, and common negative for all 3, or do the negatives all have to be on a separate wire?


----------



## Carl Spock

All three negatives have to be on separate wires.

Otherwise you will blow your amp up. 

The only time you find a common ground speaker output is on the cheapest car stereos, and even then, you better be damn sure before you try it.


----------



## Davenlr

Ok, thanks. Another trip under the house is in my future


----------



## olguy

Shades228 said:


> Very few rooms will ever be setup for optimum speaker setup. It's just not something that architect's care about when they design floor plans. Even if the room was setup perfectly for speakers there are other issues that can arise. There's a thread about room setups that we talked about awhile ago.
> 
> All most of us can do is deal with what we have. Buying good bookshelf speakers and investing in shelving can do wonders for speaker placement. After that it's just playing with settings that you have available to make it sound the best to you.


Boy, the architect that designed this floor plan back in the mid 80s certainly did not have speaker set up in mind. The room is 19 X 22 and as you can see open to the kitchen/breakfast area at the rear with a double door to the entry. I just set up a new Onkyo TX-NR 709 with Polk TSi400 mains, CS10 center, RTi A1 rears and PSW 125 12" sub. I used the Audyssey MultEQ to set it up. Some goofy settings for distance and levels but I checked with a meter and the speakers are all within 1 - 2 dB of each other and it sounds good to my beat up 74 year old ears. Especially when I crank it so that it's louder than my tinnitus. :lol: You can see I made a poor choice of TV stands as for my gear. May correct that shortly so I can have my center in the center.


----------



## Cholly

Davenlr said:


> Ok, thanks. Another trip under the house is in my future


:nono:
The benefit you'd get from a 6.1 installation may not be worth the aggravation of pulling the additional wire for the center rear. I have two 6.2 systems and one 5.1, and the 5.1 is just fine.


----------



## Cholly

Olguy - I can relate to your problem. With four surround systems in our house (2 HTIB's and 2 nice component systems), none are perfect due to room designs. None of our surrounds are on the side, as recommended. None have the ideal equilateral triangle spacing. The center speaker in the family room is close to floor level. You do what you gotta do.


----------



## Shades228

I no longer buy pre-designed stands or entertainment centers. For less money you can build your own using plywood(oak on the outside) and stain to make it better to your needs than buying one and making it work.


----------



## olguy

Shades228 said:


> I no longer buy pre-designed stands or entertainment centers. For less money you can build your own using plywood(oak on the outside) and stain to make it better to your needs than buying one and making it work.


I have neither the tools nor desire to be a woodworker. I just need to do better at shopping. :lol:


----------



## Shades228

olguy said:


> I have neither the tools nor desire to be a woodworker. I just need to do better at shopping. :lol:


I can understand that you could always find a local carpenter to make you something you want.

The last one I did I pre-ordered the wood cut already from a lumber yard. It cost me another $10 but well worth the time as all it takes is a drill, couple bits, box of screws, wood filler, stain, and a lacquer finish.


----------



## Davenlr

Shades228 said:


> I can understand that you could always find a local carpenter to make you something you want.
> .


My co worker has every woodworking tool known to man. I gave him the size last summer and asked him how much it would cost to build an entertainment center on castors so I could roll the whole thing out to clean and rewire, and have twin adjustable shelves on both side? He said he would figure it out over the weekend. The next Monday, he shows up with it already built. Fit perfect. Been using it since. And he used left over wood except for the trim, so didnt even charge me for it.


----------



## Christopher Gould

"Davenlr" said:


> My co worker has every woodworking tool known to man. I gave him the size last summer and asked him how much it would cost to build an entertainment center on castors so I could roll the whole thing out to clean and rewire, and have twin adjustable shelves on both side? He said he would figure it out over the weekend. The next Monday, he shows up with it already built. Fit perfect. Been using it since. And he used left over wood except for the trim, so didnt even charge me for it.


I built mine. Mostly out of MDF. Wheels are nice. With the weight of the center plus all the equipment im guessing mine weights 600-700lbs. With just alittle effort I can roll it out from the wall.


----------



## Shades228

Another option for Olguy is to move the picture above the TV and then mount the TV on the wall where the picture is. That would free up the top shelf where you could put your center and free up some space on the shelf.


----------



## olguy

Shades228 said:


> Another option for Olguy is to move the picture above the TV and then mount the TV on the wall where the picture is. That would free up the top shelf where you could put your center and free up some space on the shelf.


Not an option. It's a Mitsubishi DLP. And I think I am well aware of all my options, thank you. I didn't post seeking help but to compare my situation with that of the OP's and in agreement with the fact that not all rooms are built with home theater set ups in mind.

I am glad some folks have the talent, time, money or whatever to have stands built or do it themselves. What those folks need to realize is there are other priorities for the rest of us.


----------



## John Williams

Carl Spock said:


> All three negatives have to be on separate wires.
> 
> Otherwise you will blow your amp up.
> 
> The only time you find a common ground speaker output is on the cheapest car stereos, and even then, you better be damn sure before you try it.


Yes, you should run separate negatives to every speaker for current load and for compatibility for any amp you might use.

Beyond that, you are incorrect Spock.
MOST! audio/video receivers on the market ARE common ground. Go get an ohm meter and test if you don't believe me.

The exception to this: some of the highend amplifiers that use BTL outputs (B&K, Old Harmon amps, etc...). Any amp that is bridgable is not common ground, and a lot of multi-channel distribution amps are not common ground.


----------



## lugnutathome

Very much understood that one!

Then there are lunatics like myself that take those considerations to heart when home shopping. In my younger years I always had to compromise for my toys (wife(s), kids, extended family, etc). As I've aged and have been able to afford what I want and I leverage those old longings to ensure I now get what I want. So I do get the priorities bit, though mine would be considered all wrong by most.:grin:

I also know these times are fleeting as I age and head into the time when I lose mobility, I'll be forced into more traditional accommodations, so I look at now as being my time knowing eventually that by need things will change.

When we moved out to the farm, after a few weeks my wife made a trip out of town and when she returned I had managed to get my two tall floor standing speakers up room front on 48 inch high ledges in the corners. She was most vocal despite the fact that I had warned her prior. My sympathetic response was "deal with it".

For several years she'd try to set bric-a-brac on the ledges in front of them and I would remove it. Eventually she jokingly referred to that area as our "Gaza Strip". I heard her sister mutter once "I'd never let my husband do something like that" so her husband and I could hear her when she did. My reply was "good thing you are not married to me then eh?" while grinning at her.

The room is massive with lots of art, antique furniture, and reclining leather seating for 8. Sound is exquisite. Everything I could have ever have wanted. A mixture of old world warmth and some high tech equipment to make it complete.

Not for a second do I believe myself anything less than very fortunate to be where I am at this stage in life.

I get the meaning of priorities. Mine are a bit twisted for now Ever so grateful that for now they can be.

Don "if it can't be done right then really, what's the point?:sure: ("right" however is fleeting based on so many things)" Bolton



olguy said:


> Not an option. It's a Mitsubishi DLP. And I think I am well aware of all my options, thank you. I didn't post seeking help but to compare my situation with that of the OP's and in agreement with the fact that not all rooms are built with home theater set ups in mind.
> 
> I am glad some folks have the talent, time, money or whatever to have stands built or do it themselves. What those folks need to realize is there are other priorities for the rest of us.


----------

