# I Got Guide Data, but...



## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Thursday when I truned on my 921 I could not believe my eyes, there was data for some of my OTA locals. There were also some strange stations in my EPG that were in the gray. None of these stations would show, however. Many of the channels I was supposed to get would not come on either. So I pulled the smart card to reboot. Everything was back to normal after that, including the ever present "Local Programming" sigh.

Anywy one of the strange stations did stay after the reboot:"D61.5" It's similar to 9900 which shows up if you can see 110. Evidently when they added the D61.5 channel there was a glitch that gave me the guide data for my OTA's (but wacked the reception of nearly every satellite channel).

Another weird anomaly happened at the same time. I have a daily timer set for 7:00 PM for Headline News. The date listed for Thursday's recording looked something like this; "247/256" insted of "7/20". There must have been rain fade during the recording. WHen I tried to play it back I get a black screen and "acquiring signal" for a few seeconds before the program popped on. The length of the program was 6 minutes short (54 min when 61 miunutes was the lenght of the timer). Fortunately the program repeats at minnight so I set a timer for that showing. That recording had the correct date.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Another thing. When I was getting the OTA guide data, I got guide data for the OOM stations that I have scanned as well as my true locals. The browse banner still showed "local programming" but the EPG had the names of the programs and the info! They were correct too - as I was able to see "News Channel 33 at 11" (an OOM from Youngstown). I even got guide data for 2 Pittsburgh stations that I breifly received earlier in the month.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Michael P-

OTA guide data is active not just when you subscribe to locals with the 921 but also when you pay for anypart of locals including one distant network local such as WCBS for $1.50. This subscription will activate all your off air channel guide data that is supplied by Dish. ( not PSIP) There was a time when Dish would supply part of the local channels but the guide data from Tribune Media (Dish Guide subscription service) will be for all locals

Speaking of PSIP- The 921 was one of the first DVR's to require PSIP for channel recognition. They actually implemented it in a software upgrade about 1 month before the stations were required to send it as part of the ATSC modified spec. This was about a year ago (mid July 2005) The second part of PSIP ( the part that supplies a minimum guide info for the station)was required of all ATSC stations in 2-1-2006 but this part of PSIP that requires only a short future schedule of channel guide data would be impractical for DVR use. While a full 2 weeks of guide data is possible with PSIP it is not required by law and therefore some stations may do it and others may not as they may just supply the minimum fututre scheduling. Dish Engineers know this and like TIVO and DirecTV, makers of DVRs understand that PSIP by itself is not the answer for DVR. The subscription service for guide data is all there really is that will work for DVR use. I agree with you that Dish should make the guide service available without additioanl charge but their software presently doesn't work that way. Some would say that locals should be required as part of your basic sub packages. I believe Dish is headed in that direction but presently people like me can take advantage of subscription savings per month by opting out.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

I wonder if it would work if I subbed to a superstation? I really miss KTLA from back in the days when it was a part of the original Top-50 CD. 

My local CBS is not an O&O (however my FOX is) so I don't qualify for any OOM on satellite. I can get OOM OTA. One station I now get 24/7 from Youngstown. It's CBS HD with a FOX SD subchannel. Football season should be interesting.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Most likely, your FOX will be in HD because FOX network has supplied each digital station with the hardware to do HD plus DD5.1. The CBS network makes the stations buy their own. We have a CBS / FOX duopoly here too and while they had CBS on HD first, their FOX channel was first to have DD5.1. That mix holds true today as well. I'm surprised your duopoly is licensed to transmit both networks on the same channel. But then all sorts of special permits were issued by the FCC over the past few years as we move to all digital. 

Today, the waiver process is difficult, especially if you live in a metro area. The only reason I got one was due to a unique opportunity plus being friends with the, then CE of the CBS station. There was a very brief window in this town when we were without a CBS station for our DMA. You can't imagine how brief but with the help of both DishNetwork and this engineer I snuck it in. I would never qualify today but until the law changes, once you have the waiver it takes an act of God to reverse it and few if any station engineers have the time nor the desire to do that for one viewer. My guess is you would not be able to qualify for the nmational local network anyway. Plus, the days of this seem to be numbered anyway. My local station does not have DD5.1 the NY WCBS does and I especially like the audio from NY but the picture quality on most of the SD programming is pretty bad. The HD, however is quite good, maybe better than my local station which is strange.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

> I'm surprised your duopoly is licensed to transmit both networks on the same channel.


 First of all, this is not "my" local station. It's an OOM digital station from Youngstown that was blessed with a fantastic coverage area on their DT signal - it surpasses it's analog coverage. The contour map shows WKBN-DT reaching from the City of Cleveland all the way to parts of the Greter Pittsburgh area!

The reason they were able to piggy-back 2 major networks is probably due to the fact that there are fewer high-powered channels available for Youngstown. The first Youngstown station to go digital was the NBC affilliate, WFMJ. When WFMJ-DT signed on they started a new "channel" that was a WB affilliate and ony available digitally. They call it "WBCB", but those calls are not legit TV call letters. It's really WFMJ-DT 21-2. Anyway when WKBN the CBS affilliate went digital they piggy-backed their low-power FOX channel, WYFX on 27-2. Those call letters are a legitimate TV call sign ( along with WFXI Mercer PA which mirrors WYFX ). In adition to the SD subchannel WYFX is being supplied in HD to local cable systems in the Youngstown area. BTW: I heard that D* added WYFX to their LIL's only after it was sent as a subchannel, as the LPTV signal did not make it cleanly to the D* POP (E* POP must have had better reception, WYFX was a part of the E* LIL's before WKBN-DT signed on).

Not to be outdone WYTV, the ABC affilliate in Y'town is adding a subchannel with "MY Network TV" this fall.

Here is WKBN-DT's coverage area from the FCC: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT603946.html
I only wish the other 2 stations had comprable signals. I'm inside the coverage area for only WKBN-DT. I'm just outside WFMJ-DT and way outside WYTV. I put up an antenna on my roof aimed at Youngstown. I get a lock on WKBN-DT 24/7, however WFMJ-DT only locks in on occasion (I do get a slightly snowy but watchable analog pictutre from WFMJ) WYTV is the weakest of all in both analog and digital. On the days I get WYTV the "skip" is up and I probably can also get 2 Pittsburgh stations.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"The reason they were able to piggy-back 2 major networks is probably due to the fact that there are fewer high-powered channels available for Youngstown."_

I doubt that. Most likely it was fiscal hardship cry for help from the FCC and they were granted a special temp waiver to do that. Seems our other duopoly had the same thing, now that I recall but it expired in a year and was granted for a short period of time to erect the new tower and receive the new digital transmitter. Digitasl is expensive to implement but a duopoly is doubly expensive. Plus, I can't imaginge the ad $ coveres a big business base in your region with all the competition.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> _"The reason they were able to piggy-back 2 major networks is probably due to the fact that there are fewer high-powered channels available for Youngstown."_
> 
> I doubt that. Most likely it was fiscal hardship cry for help from the FCC and they were granted a special temp waiver to do that. Seems our other duopoly had the same thing, now that I recall but it expired in a year and was granted for a short period of time to erect the new tower and receive the new digital transmitter. Digitasl is expensive to implement but a duopoly is doubly expensive. Plus, I can't imaginge the ad $ coveres a big business base in your region with all the competition.


The FOX affilliate is just 2 LPTV channels that barely cover the central city area of Youngstown,OH and Mercer, PA. If it wern't for cable coverage WYFX would probably not exist for long as a FOX affilliate. The "big city FOX" WJW here in Cleveland is carried on just about every cable system in the Youngstown market and is received OTA quite well into PA. Before WYFX-LP began, WYTV the full-power ABC affilliate had a secondary FOX affilliation just to carry the NFL. Once FOX had the NFL there was a push on to get Youngstown it's own FOX affilliate. Youngstown is big on sports, all kinds of sports from the pros down to little league. Add to that the fact that both the Browns and Steelers claim the territory. Having a seperate FOX affilliate means different games can often be shown.

Even if/when they "flip" the 2 LPTV transmitters over to digital, they still will have the poor coverage area without the boost from cable and the WKBN-DT subchannel.

BTW: Does the FCC really care what is carried on a subchannel (outside of obvious obscenity violations)? The FOX network probably cares more than the FCC. There are no additional full power channels available thanks to Youngstown's close proximity to Cleveland and Pittsburgh (and to a lesser extent Erie PA and Wheeling/Steubenville). I hope the subchannel carrying WYFX is not temporary. I enjoy getting both WKBN and WYFX here in the shadows of the WJW and WOIO towers


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