# Exactly how does this work?



## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

I've been a member for awhile but silently for sure. I'm trying to understand the whole satellite communications chains and then want to drill down from there. Is this forum appropriate to do so or is there a better place to go? Is there any written materials to know things like: How many sat's are above us to serve the western region of the USA? How many channels can one satellite handle? etc. etc. I'm sure as the answers are revealed it will generate many more. I'm a DISH Network customer and want to understand more.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

You should start from condensed info: threads dedicated to launch latest dish sats - see Wiki for echostar sas, James Long's info posts and his site pages.
Long way to learn is read books, offline, online,eBooks ,,, as you prefer,


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

Thank you. Starting the learning process.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

Can anyone explain why there are two cables going into/out of the antenna? I understand that there are three LNB's covering the 110, 119 and 129 satellites. I assume that the "switch" in the antenna path is used to select the correct satellite based on the channel chosen by me on the Hopper II. I would have expected only a single output (cable) based on the chosen channel. Again, why two cables for the output? Is this switch located in the LNB array or is it part of the "SOLO" node I have? What else does the "SOLO" node do?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The "solo" node connects one Hopper (original or Hopper w/sling) to a DISHPro+ LNB. The Hopper has three tuners and needs three satellite signals to operate correctly. DISHPro+ only passes two signals. The node takes two signals from one cable and one signal from the second cable and stacks them on a single cable that feeds the Hopper. (The "duo" node has three cables from the dish LNB to the node, providing six satellite signals - three for each of the two Hoppers that it can support. The Hopper 3 uses a different LNB that is capable of stacking 16 transponder sized feeds and delivering them to one Hopper 3.)

Your system has switches in the node and in the LNB on the dish. They work together to make sure your receiver has the signals it needs to record/display the programming you want to watch.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

Got it. The LNB's are numbered and so is the "SOLO." By your description, I take it that any LNB wire can go to any input on the SOLO. Correct?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

correct
I would go to Solid Signal site , they have a lot of diagrams of connecting LNB, switches,nodes, DVR, etc


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

I went to solidsignal.com and could find no wiring diagrams. Did I get this wrong?

Next question:
Dish uses, in the western arc, three satellites. they use 110, 119 and 129. each of these satellites has 32 transponders (channels if you will). So ....
1. I assume that there is only one uplink per satellite right?
2. all uplink data is available to each transponder (one in and 32 out per satellite)?
3. three satellites are required to handle the full content of DISH's offerings?
4. is there other content (other than Dish's) being transmitted?
5. what's this notion of a "spot beam."

Please forgive me with all these questions, I'm just trying to learn.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

tpns are not channels; PIDs are the channels
take a look at lyngsat site - see coverage diagrams, compare CONUS and spot beams pictures, PIDs and channels and transponders
teke another look at solidsignal, then have papers and diagram for DTV and dish


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

zok4me2000 said:


> Dish uses, in the western arc, three satellites. they use 110, 119 and 129. each of these satellites has 32 transponders (channels if you will). So ....


It is better to use the correct terms ... otherwise one is talking about how many channels can be carried on a channel. The correct term is transponder. There are 32 licensed transponder frequencies per DBS satellite. With some planning they can be reused in different parts of the country (read on).

Answers inline ...
1. I assume that there is only one uplink per satellite right?
I believe DISH currently has seven uplink centers. For each transponder on the satellite could be uplinked from a different site (satellite design can limit where certain transponders are uplinked). And while we refer to "the satellite at 110" there can be more than one DISH satellite at each location. For example there are two satellites at 110, one used for national "ConUS" (continental US) coverage and one used for "spotbeams". The spotbeams are why DISH has so many uplink centers.

2. all uplink data is available to each transponder (one in and 32 out per satellite)?
Nope. Most satellites are stupid reflectors, similar to that mirror in your bathroom that reflects only what it sees ... no editing or photo shop. 32 separate uplinks are reflected as 32 separate downlinks. A complicated 100 transponder spot beam satellite needs 100 uplinks (with a few exceptions).

Only 32 transponders can be uplinked to each orbital location from each uplink center. Using multiple uplink centers means 32 transponders can be uplinked from Virginia, 32 from Texas, 32 from Chicago, 32 from Arizona, 32 from Wyoming, 32 from Seattle. 192 transponders if all 32 uplinks were used at six sites. But only 32 can be aimed at your house. So DISH aims the other ones at someone else.

3. three satellites are required to handle the full content of DISH's offerings?
Three orbital positions (more than three satellites).

4. is there other content (other than Dish's) being transmitted?
Yes. DIRECTV has their own satellites at 110 and 119 which limit what DISH can use at those two locations. DISH is currently licensed to use 50 transponders at 110 and 119, DIRECTV has the other 14. DISH has 129 all to themselves, DIRECTV has 101 all to themselves.

5. what's this notion of a "spot beam."
It is complicated. Basically it is transponder reuse. Instead of having 32 "ConUS" transponders sending the same signal to the entire US (and usually to Alaska and Hawaii) smaller footprint transponders may be used.









Each circle is a spotbeam. Note the overlaps - DISH cannot use the same transponder frequency for spotbeams in overlapping circles without interference.









This shows the spot beams sharing the same transponder downlink frequency. Note minimal overlap.


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

A spot beam is like a narrow "pencil" beam flashlight whose signal gets aimed at a small patch of the globe. These are used to transmit local broadcast stations to just the part of the country they serve.

Other beams are like a flood light instead of a narrow pencil beam. They cover a much larger portion of the country. Those that can deliver signals to the whole continental US are termed "ConUS".


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

WOW starting to get more complex all the time. I got it. To jameslong I cannot get to your website as I'm getting a message that I do not have permissions. So when I'm in my RV and MUST call Dish Network when I go from city to city, it's the spotbeams that are being redirected/approved for my reception at my location. By the way, the process of this changing to the local channels is very broken. It always takes more then two calls and no customer service rep ever knows what to do.


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

zok4me2000 said:


> So when I'm in my RV and MUST call Dish Network when I go from city to city, it's the spotbeams that are being redirected/approved for my reception at my location.


Your receiver receives authorization to receive the channels in your programming package. This includes authorization to receive the local channels for the area in which you are located. As long as you don't move so far that you are no longer in the footprint of the particular spotbeam carrying your locals, you will continue to receive them. Once you move far enough that your previous spotbeam can no longer reach you, you have to call to give your provider a new address and get your receiver authorized to receive the particular local channels for your new area, and reception of the old area's channels de-authorized.

Spotbeams are often wide enough to carry locals from more than one major city but in most cases you'll only be authorized to receive the ones deemed to be in the DMA service area for the address they have on file. The actual aiming of the spotbeams themselves from the satellite is static and remains the same for everybody.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Take a look at this map (hopefully you can see them now):








My locals are on "Transponder 30 Spotbeam 55" (from a satellite at 61.5). There are several other spotbeams across the country reusing Transponder 30 at 61.5 ... none overlap the one labeled 55.

Technically I should be able to receive my locals anywhere within that circle labeled "55". I also have locals on "20s55" (transponder 20). Other channels on those transponders serve the Chicago and Lafayette areas. (Legally I should be within the eleven county market.)


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

How is it that the spotbeams are all not circular? They are odd shaped. Can I assume that the technology exists that the beams can be shaped to anything that they want? I live in Fairfield California midway between San Francisco and Sacramento. Dish gives me the choice of either city for my 'Locals.' So that means 2 spot beams cross over boundaries where I live?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The original spot beams were more circular ... at least from the perspective of the satellite. The ovals became more elongated when projected on the globe. Modern spotbeams can be shaped ... yes, satellite design is rocket science.

Probably the best example of a shaped beam is the ConUS beam. To make the best use of the signal and to limit reception and interference in other countries, the ConUS shape has been refined to more closely match the country's borders ... including shaping signals that reach the 48 states plus Alaska and Hawaii without wasting signal on the Pacific Ocean. (And as shown on the map below, provide good coverage to Puerto Rico.)


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

zok4me2000 said:


> So when I'm in my RV and MUST call Dish Network when I go from city to city, it's the spotbeams that are being redirected/approved for my reception at my location. By the way, the process of this changing to the local channels is very broken. It always takes more then two calls and no customer service rep ever knows what to do.


A number of us have found the Dish online chat system to be more efficient for changing our service addresses than phone calls. The first contact is almost always successful, although sometimes they also change the billing address, despite being told not to. At least that's easily fixed in the MyDish account. And now there's the MyDish app feature that lets us change the service address ourselves if we have a Dish Outdoors flagged account.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

I have never tried the online chat system as the internet connection has not been reliable in the times I really needed it. Hence the phone call. Additionally, the MyDish app will not work for me as I have tried but found out rather quickly that since I have a "Hybrid" account (I have no idea what that means, that's what I was told) I cannot use the App. Frustrating for sure.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

I have no idea either what a "Hybrid" account is. Obviously you need Internet access to use the chat system, so I guess we're fortunate that we've equipped our RV for that access wherever we've been so far. I'm reading that the MyDish app feature will be expanded to a wider user base at some point, but I haven't seen any timeline for that.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

zok4me2000 said:


> By the way, the process of this changing to the local channels is very broken. It always takes more then two calls and no customer service rep ever knows what to do.


Dish reportedly has a separate department for RV customers. Is that who you are calling?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

zok4me2000 said:


> I have a "Hybrid" account (I have no idea what that means, that's what I was told)


perhaps you pay according the definition:
_"Payment model: Customers expect flexibility in their payment model. For each of the services, they should be provided with the options to choose either a prepaid or post-paid or *hybrid account*."_


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

zok4me2000 said:


> Additionally, the MyDish app will not work for me as I have tried but found out rather quickly that since I have a "Hybrid" account (I have no idea what that means, that's what I was told) I cannot use the App. Frustrating for sure.


As noted, the app is for Outdoors accounts. Do you have DISH equipment at home (not in the RV) or are you entirely RV based?


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

I was told that I needed to use the 1-800 numbers to call in and that "any" agent could help me. You are the first person to mention that their might exist an RV specialist. As I've said, the agents I've spoken to so far have disproven the fact that they know how to do the local switching. Let me also say that the Wally receiver knows when it's not in your designated local area as it will refuse to work with any channel. I'm forced to call.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

Let me clarify my statement ...
Here are two responses from DISH:

1. "Due to DMA restrictions in place be Neilson and the FCC, only Pay-As-You-Go accounts at this time are able to use the MyDISH to update the locals. You do have the option to chat with an agent through the app to have your locals updated if you prefer, instead of having to call in."
and
2. "DMA restrictions is the Digital Management Area restrictions by the Neilson ratings company and the FCC. These companies make the guidelines as to where the locals are actually governed and we have to abide by these due to legal restrictions, Pay-As-You-Go accounts are the only accounts that are able to change the locals at the time as they are not "hybrid" accounts and do not have a home account tied to them. 

DISH has to be able to distinguish what type of customer is using this service"

So enough said about this as I am way beyond the purpose of these threads.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

That is why I asked "Do you have DISH equipment at home (not in the RV) or are you entirely RV based?"

There are special laws that apply to RV accounts ... if you have a home account changing addresses should not occur as often as they do when using an RV.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

Sorry James, it was not intention to avoid the question. For perspective, I am a DISH customer for over 10 years at my home. I have been satisfied with the service. Just last year I purchased an RV with a Wally, added the receiver to my account and hence have become as I now know it a 'Hybrid' account. Yep, when I use the RV/Wally I'm changing the local stations as we travel. I now understand why with your help (think spot beams). We are not full timers and bounce between the House and RV units. I had no clue when I added the wally to my account that the activation/deactivation was going to occur between the home receiver (hopper II) and the RV (Wally) (local channels changing as well). Given the situation as it exists, I can live with it and will put up with confusion when I call in to change receivers.

Back to my education.

My home setup (Hopper II + Solo Node + Dish 1000+ Antenna) is what I have to understand the actual wiring. You have been kind and patient to explain the how and why my setup is wired. My next question relates more to signal tracing. So ........
The three satellites are received by the DISH1000+antenna simultaneously. The Antenna does a block down conversion to an Intermediary Frequency (IF) for all three satellites.
ASSUMPTION 1: That's why there are three output terminals on the antenna
However, only two outputs are used, outputs #1 and #2 because that how I see it cabled. That can only mean there must be a combiner somewhere on the receiver horn assembly and my assumption is wrong. Can you provide any details on this, i.e. which of the three are combining in the feed assembly? Anything else going on? Can you please address the antenna assembly alone as I know other factors will get involved as we more down the signal path.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There is a switch inside the LNBF assembly.
Think of the inputs as six polarities. Each satellite has (up to) 16 transponders on each polarity. Each polarity covers about 500MHz of bandwidth.
The six polarities received by your LNBF when aimed at Western Arc are:
110 Even Channels, 110 Odd Channels, 119 Even Channels, 119 Odd Channels, 129 Even Channels, 129 Odd Channels.

Each of the outputs can output two of those polarities. If you connect a single tuner receiver directly to one of those outputs the receiver will tell the switch which polarity to deliver (and deliver both polarities for the same satellite location, if I recall correctly). If you connect a dual tuner receiver directly to one of those outputs the receiver will ask for any two of the six polarities - one for each tuner. The polarity delivered will contain (up to) 16 transponders ... the receiver will tune the one transponder where the channel you want to watch or record is located.

The Hopper and Hopper w/Sling have three tuners and need three polarities - which is where the Node comes in. The node takes two polarities delivered on one coax and one polarity delivered on the other coax and combines them on a single coax to feed the Hopper. (The Duo Node does the same except uses three feeds from the dish's LNBF ... six polarities with three going to each Hopper.)

If you look at some LNBFs they have an "IN" connection along with the outputs. That allows you to connect a second dish or a separate LNB to the LNBF's switch. For example, on my Eastern Arc setup the LNBF receives 61.5, 72.7 and 77 on the internal LNBs and I have a 118 LNB (international channels) feed connected to the IN. That gives me eight polarities on three outputs. Any two polarities on each output and my Duo Node picks up any three of the eight for each of my Hoppers.


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

zok4me2000 said:


> Let me also say that the Wally receiver knows when it's not in your designated local area as it will refuse to work with any channel. I'm forced to call.


The Wally has no GPS or other function that "knows" its current location. You should receive all channels in your package other than the locals if you're outside of your "home" spot beam footprint. If you're within the footprint, you'll receive your home locals even if your current location is in a different Designated Market Area (DMA). Changing your service address simply changes a setting in the signal sent to your receiver that enables reception of the associated DMA.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

NYDutch said:


> Changing your service address simply changes a setting in the signal sent to your receiver that enables reception of the associated DMA.


It's just one EMM command, changing a record inside of CAM card, related to the local channels' tier.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

Hmmmmmmm....
Uwave transmission to and from of any of the DISH satellites uses circular polarity for maximum power transmission (from the artist renditions, this polarity it appears to be counter clock wise). Every up/down-link signal (all 32 of them) is on its own center frequency per the literature. Are you saying that each feedhorn (3 of them) is capable of discerning two separate signals (read: each has a separate center frequency) and down-converting them into a single output simultaneously? I think maybe i'm not seeing this correctly.

You say that the Hopper w/Sling (Hopper II) has three tuners. My Hopper II records 4 stations at once and I thought that meant it had four tuners. Again, i'm confused on this.

As for the no GPS in the Hopper II or Wally, I agree. The Hopper II and Wally have no idea where it's located. But dollars to donuts, when I moved my coach from my home to Las Vegas I could not receive any channel as the TV screen was complaining that it wasn't setup properly (be careful here. I'm way off paraphrasing what I saw, it was months ago). Once I called in and reset the zip code, WHA-LA all was good. I thought that all channels, other then the locals, would be view-able no matter where I roamed, but evidently not.

Sorry P Smith I don't understand the acronyms EMM and CAM in your response. What is this?

It is also interesting to me on how exactly these local channels are re-addressed and what's changing internally once I make the zip code change (the TV guide portion) (must be software related tables is my guess).


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

zok4me2000 said:


> each has a separate center frequency) and down-converting them into a single output simultaneously?


yes, and add to the phrase - both polarities as TWO outputs for feeding internal switch


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

zok4me2000 said:


> My Hopper II records 4 stations at once


only by using PTAT !


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

zok4me2000 said:


> what's changing internally once I make the zip code change


not that much: FW using standard filter by ZIP value to allow/prohibit your viewing channels;
the ZIP value stored in CAM and changing by EMM from data center


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

zok4me2000 said:


> What is this?


Wiki is good source: Conditional access - Wikipedia


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## NYDutch (Dec 28, 2013)

zok4me2000 said:


> As for the no GPS in the Hopper II or Wally, I agree. The Hopper II and Wally have no idea where it's located. But dollars to donuts, when I moved my coach from my home to Las Vegas I could not receive any channel as the TV screen was complaining that it wasn't setup properly (be careful here. I'm way off paraphrasing what I saw, it was months ago). Once I called in and reset the zip code, WHA-LA all was good. I thought that all channels, other then the locals, would be view-able no matter where I roamed, but evidently not.


When you moved to Las Vegas, the only channels you should have lost were your home locals. The message you saw was likely because your receiver had a home local channel selected. Switching to any non-local channel would have still worked. Non-fulltime RV'ers have taken Dish receivers from home on the road with them for many years without making any service address changes. Other than the locals, they still receive all of their other channels just fine since they're CONUS beamed, not spot beamed. If they receive the OTA locals well enough at their destination, then they may not bother changing their service address at all for the duration of the trip. We're currently located in a different DMA than the one our service address calls for, but because we're still within the spot beam, we still get those locals. We only get the correct DMA locals OTA of course.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

zok4me2000 said:


> Uwave transmission to and from of any of the DISH satellites uses circular polarity for maximum power transmission (from the artist renditions, this polarity it appears to be counter clock wise). Every up/down-link signal (all 32 of them) is on its own center frequency per the literature. Are you saying that each feedhorn (3 of them) is capable of discerning two separate signals (read: each has a separate center frequency) and down-converting them into a single output simultaneously? I think maybe i'm not seeing this correctly.


The polarities on DBS licensed satellites are circular left or circular right polarized. The center frequencies are offset by half a transponder width between polarities. 16 transponders on each polarity. All the odd transponders are on one polarity and all the even transponders are on the other (satellite education 101).



zok4me2000 said:


> You say that the Hopper w/Sling (Hopper II) has three tuners. My Hopper II records 4 stations at once and I thought that meant it had four tuners. Again, i'm confused on this.


The hopper could record seven stations at once ... all four major local networks using PTAT on one tuner, two separate feeds on the other two tuners and an OTA module if attached.



zok4me2000 said:


> As for the no GPS in the Hopper II or Wally, I agree. The Hopper II and Wally have no idea where it's located. But dollars to donuts, when I moved my coach from my home to Las Vegas I could not receive any channel as the TV screen was complaining that it wasn't setup properly (be careful here. I'm way off paraphrasing what I saw, it was months ago). Once I called in and reset the zip code, WHA-LA all was good. I thought that all channels, other then the locals, would be view-able no matter where I roamed, but evidently not.


You moved far enough that you were no longer under the spotbeam for the locals in your own area. You should have been able to watch any non-local channel. (The error should have been a "signal loss" error when attempting to tune your locals. The error may be different if you go into an area using the same transponder frequency for a different spotbeam.)



zok4me2000 said:


> It is also interesting to me on how exactly these local channels are re-addressed and what's changing internally once I make the zip code change (the TV guide portion) (must be software related tables is my guess).


Nothing more difficult than changing any other subscription package. For example, say you subscribed to HBO and not Showtime and you decided to drop HBO and add Showtime in its place. DISH would deauthorize the HBO channels and authorize the Showtime channels. DISH is doing the same thing with your locals - when you call in they are deauthorizing your current locals and authorizing locals for your new location. That is it for most channels.

DISH is also changing a set if flags in your receiver that control blackout restrictions ... but changing locals are a simple authorizing/deauthorizing process.

If you are not authorized to view a channel it will either show up as "unsubscribed" on your receiver or not show up at all. Locals are set to not show up at all if not part of your subscription (which is good as having thousands of unsubscribed channels would be confusing - and DISH reuses channel numbers in different markets).

When blackout restrictions are in play you will see the subscribed channel in the guide but when you select programming you will get the blackout message.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

James - very slight correction - Hooper / Hopper with sling can record 8 channels at once - all the DBS ones you mentioned, plus 2 OTA channels (using the Dual tuner OTA module).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

scooper said:


> James - very slight correction - Hooper / Hopper with sling can record 8 channels at once - all the DBS ones you mentioned, plus 2 OTA channels (using the Dual tuner OTA module).


The dual channel USB works with H1 but I believe it is limited to one tuner. Something to test.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

After I wrote my response last night I continued to look at the feedhorn electronics. Therein I discovered a detailed description of the feedhorn (LNBF) electronics down-conversion as well as the two antenna poles protruding into the reception cavity, 90 degrees apart from each other. It is these two poles that detect the left or Right polarization activated the condition of the "switch." The switch is a two state device using the DC voltage level determined by the receiver. I believe its two states are determined by that voltage being either 13VDC and 19VDC. All I can say is that its all a bit of black magic.

What is hard for me to reconcile is that all feedhorns are running at all times. As James pointed out earlier, all six polarities are present in the cavity but only left or right data is block down converted. All three feedhorns are active at once and these data are all mixed into a single IF data set. So why is there three outputs from the LNBF and not just one? If three are always active why does my antenna supply two feeds into the SOLO node (three feeds on a DUO node)? Numbers are not adding up and it appears that the IF streams are crashing into each other regardless of how the actual receiver can filter this.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Perhaps you need help with the math. While both polarities of all three orbital locations are being received at the same time by the LNB part of the assembly, the switch built in to the assembly only passes what is needed. The DISH LNBF you are using is set up to use 1 GHz of bandwidth on each output (switched as I explained above). Two 500 MHz blocks on each output. The Node takes two blocks from one output of the LNBF and adds a block from the second output from the LNBF ... 1.5 GHz of bandwidth between the Node and the Hopper. There is no "crashing" because the switch and the node only pass non-overlapped blocks. The feed from the LNBF is limited to 1 GHz so the second feed is needed for the Node to get the third block of transponders.

Your first paragraph is old information. The "black magic" is more complicated than the voltage difference. The oldest "legacy" LNB outputs feeding only one polarity (one block of 500 MHz) used voltage as a simple switch ... the most simple communication between a receiver and the LNB ... but the switch in the current LNBF assemblies are much more complicated. A different kind of magic is required when each output of the switch can be any two of eight inputs.

BTW: I created the following chart to show how DISH uses the bandwidth on the coax between the Node and the Hopper ---








Red: MoCA is used for communication between the Hoppers and Joeys.
Green: Legacy feeds have one 500 MHz block as shown. DISH Pro and DISH Pro Plus feeds stack two 500 MHz blocks. The Hopper has three feeds (rough placement shown).
Blue: OTA broadcast channels.
(The bottom two rows expand the bars shown on top to better show the OTA channels.)

The new Hopper 3 "Hybrid" LNB stacking (16 transponders instead of three 500 MHz blocks) is closer to DIRECTV's SWiM layout.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

zok4me2000 said:


> the feedhorn electronics


Look again  "feedhorn" is just mechanical part of LNBF, aka conus pipe - no electronics there, Carl !
As I recommend you before, I'll do it again - read Wiki first, then post
Low-noise block downconverter - Wikipedia


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

James Long said:


> The new Hopper 3 "Hybrid" LNB stacking (16 transponders instead of three 500 MHz blocks) is closer to DIRECTV's SWiM layout.


This part's details would be interesting to see here... is it called "DPZ" ?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

dpH between the Hub and the hybrid LNB.
dpX between the Hub and the Hopper 1/2 or SuperJoey (Advanced Client).
dpZ between the Hub and the Hopper 3.
Click to read labels:








The hubs allow Joeys to be added to the Hopper 3. Oddly enough, a node is required between the Hopper 3 and the hybrid LNB even in a setup with no Joeys.

I do not have a band plan for dpH/dpZ.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I don't get why they make everything complicated instead of just using splitters. What advantage are they getting from requiring these special parts versus what Directv does with splitters?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There is a MDU setup where 32 Wallys can be connected to the new DPH42 switch (16 Wallys per switch output using standard splitters after the switch).
But the biggest difference between most DISH wiring and DIRECTV's SWM is the use of 500 MHz blocks.
The Hopper 3 and the Wallys are the only receivers I know of that work with smaller blocks. (Joeys do not receive satellite signals and can be used with normal decent quality spliters.)
Perhaps DISH decided to put their development time in on their GUI instead of on signal distribution?
With home run cabling (their standard since DISH started) not having smaller blocks was not an issue until DISH introduced a 16 tuner receiver.
DISH has also used QAM for distribution in MDU settings.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

OK, I have read and re-read all of the responses so far and am starting to get a picture different then when I started. Again, I have to thank you James for your patience and details as it is mostly your info that is making me go this route.

Let's see if I'm on the right path, Using my Hopper II and the 1000+ dish and solo node.... Given this setup, the dish output port 1 will yield if needed, up to two spectral bands (950-1450 & 1650-2150) and the dish output port 2 will yield if needed, one additional band (2500-3000MHz)

Scenario #1, watching one TV station that happens to be located on 110:
- Only SAT Tuner 1 is used and the 500MHz band (950-1450Mz) contains that station (on sat 110). The other two tuners and it's associated bands, are basically in a don't care state.

Scenario #2, watching one TV station located on 119, recording a TV program on 110:
- SAT Tuner 1 is used and the 500MHz band (950-1450Mz) contains that station (on sat 119). SAT Tuner 2 is used and the 500MHz band (1650-2150) is recording. SAT Tuner 3 is in a don't care state.

Am I getting close?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

no,
you are going wrong side at beginning

out2 and out1 are equal
internal switch is missing from your vision

the switch is controlling from a host [Hx] and provide any 2x500 MHz IF to any output independently by stacking

tuners of H are taking any part of of switch's outputs to select narrow [24 or 36 MHz] part eg one transponder


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> tuners of H are taking any part of of switch's outputs to select narrow [36 MHz] part eg one transponder


Remember, Dish is Ku only and transponders are only 24 MHz wide, not 36 MHz like Directv's Ka/RDBS transponders.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

zok4me2000 said:


> Let's see if I'm on the right path, Using my Hopper II and the 1000+ dish and solo node.... Given this setup, the dish output port 1 will yield if needed, up to two spectral bands (950-1450 & 1650-2150) and the dish output port 2 will yield if needed, one additional band (2500-3000MHz)


Basically correct ... with the note that the second output from the LNB will still be below 2150. The node will raise it to the higher frequency.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

James, thank you. Very clear now.


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

What mechanism(s) are used for the signaling of the switches in the LNBF and Node? Is this a voltage level? Obviously these signals originate from the set top box.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

DPP/DPH/DPX/DPZ protocols eg commands to the LNBF,Nodes,switches


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## zok4me2000 (Jan 1, 2006)

I've noticed these protocol(s) are printed on the back of the receivers. Can I assume that the receiver is calling out exactly what it uses? Is it this call out that also determines how the wiring (antenna-node-receiver) is to be done? (For the sake of this question let's assume a single receiver only, no complex setup) Does this call out also determine the antenna type?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

When you do a "Check Switch" test, the receiver querys for each piece until it gets to the LNB. What makes this interesting is that through the VIP series, the receivers could also be used with the non-Dishpro series equipment as well - so there are 2 different test protocols it could go through , depending on the responses it gets. Legacy LNBs / switched had 38 supported configurations (and 38 different tests), but DishPro equipment is smarter and identifies itself.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Go to Menu ... Settings ... Diagnostics then "Dish" and your receiver (Hopper or Hopper 2) will show you what it can see. The type of node and switch should be listed at the top.
Based on that knowledge, the receiver knows what commands to send to the node.

During initial setup or a later Check Switch ("Test Installation") the receiver steps through the commands sent to the node and switch to determine what orbital locations are available based on the commands sent. On older receivers this scan process can be long.

In some cases DISH switches can be cascaded where the receiver sends commands to the first switch and the first switch sends different commands to the next switch.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

zok4me2000 said:


> I've noticed these protocol(s) are printed on the back of the receivers. Can I assume that the receiver is calling out exactly what it uses? Is it this call out that also determines how the wiring (antenna-node-receiver) is to be done? (For the sake of this question let's assume a single receiver only, no complex setup) Does this call out also determine the antenna type?


We don't know all details of newest protocols yet, it was sniffed how legacy cmds working, DP is based on DiSEqC ...perhaps later versions support two way communication.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> We don't know all details of newest protocols yet, it was sniffed how legacy cmds working, DP is based on DiSEqC ...perhaps later versions support two way communication.


I found it interesting that the nodes James Long posted pictures of claim to pass DC, DiSEqC _and FSK_. Since both Directv and Dish are using Maxlinear channel stacking chips, and AFAIK Directv's SWM/FSK protocol is based on the CENELEC standard for channel stacking command set, Dish may be in fact using the same command set at the same FSK frequencies as Directv.

I wonder what would happen if someone tried a Hopper 3 (or whatever else works with their 'hybrid LNB') with a DSWM30 connected to a Dish 'legacy' LNB, or connected to a 3DR LNB pointed at 110 or 119, with the appropriate node? The Dish receiver may check what the firmware on the remote end identifies itself as so even if the command set is identical I wouldn't bet on it working, but I can't totally rule it out, either.

One thing I don't know (maybe someone does) is the frequency map for Dish's stacked channels. If they use the same 51.03 MHz spacing Directv does, then I'd have a really strong suspicion the equipment might play well together, or at least be capable of it if you could override a simple firmware check.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Reading the type of node and switch is a two way communication. The old way of blindly sending commands and seeing what signals return has been modified when the receiver knows that it is connected to a solo node and a DPP 1K.2 switch (as the thread starter's equipment would likely report) or a duo node and a DPP 1K.4 switch as my equipment reports. Check Switch on my receiver is under a minute instead of the long blind process.

Two way communication would be a requirement for multiple Wallys connected to a DPH42 switch. Similar to DIRECTV SWIM the Wally would need to know which feed on the cable was for that receiver. But it is not new. DPPlus has been around for a long time and the ViP receivers have been able to identify DPP switches by name since they were introduced (2005 ?).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> I found it interesting that the nodes James Long posted pictures of claim to pass DC, DiSEqC _and FSK_. Since both Directv and Dish are using Maxlinear channel stacking chips, and AFAIK Directv's SWM/FSK protocol is based on the CENELEC standard for channel stacking command set, Dish may be in fact using the same command set at the same FSK frequencies as Directv.
> 
> I wonder what would happen if someone tried a Hopper 3 (or whatever else works with their 'hybrid LNB') with a DSWM30 connected to a Dish 'legacy' LNB, or connected to a 3DR LNB pointed at 110 or 119, with the appropriate node? The Dish receiver may check what the firmware on the remote end identifies itself as so even if the command set is identical I wouldn't bet on it working, but I can't totally rule it out, either.
> 
> One thing I don't know (maybe someone does) is the frequency map for Dish's stacked channels. If they use the same 51.03 MHz spacing Directv does, then I'd have a really strong suspicion the equipment might play well together, or at least be capable of it if you could override a simple firmware check.


I have not seen a map for how the channels are stacked on DISH's "dpZ" feeds. The stacked feeds would be seen from a hybrid LNB via a hub connected to a Hopper 3 or the DPH42 switch on feeds to a Hopper 3 or up to 16 Wallys per output in an MDU setup. 51.03 MHz spacing would certainly work for DISH's 16 transponder per feed stacking.

Maxlinear has a switch that can do a 24 channel (individual transponder) stack or full band stacks. I assume that is used as the switch in the hybrid LNB (which outputs two dpX feeds OR one dpZ feed). DISH only uses 16 transponder channels on a stack but early rumors were that they would eventually use all 24.

DISH's topology was still one receiver per feed from the "hub" when the hybrid was released. They have since introduced the DPH42 switch that does stacking that can be connected to one Hopper 3 or up to 16 Wallys per output in a MDU installation. That is the closest DISH has come to SWM.

I assume the control language is similar but different enough that one could not connect four DIRECTV inputs to a DPH42 and expect it to serve two SWM feeds.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH Hopper/Hopper 2 with clients - Two Hoppers or a Hopper and a Super Joey









DISH Hopper 3 with clients (no second Hopper or Super Joey allowed)








(Layout of dpZ stack is estimated)

From DISH's Installation Guide for the DPH42 (title and copyright notice added)








The DPH42 can support two Hopper 3s (one per output) or up to 32 Wallys (16 per output).


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

Correction: since DISH activated the second tuner in the Wally you can only connect 8 per outlet for a total of 16 on a DPH42 switch.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

n0qcu said:


> Correction: since DISH activated the second tuner in the Wally you can only connect 8 per outlet for a total of 16 on a DPH42 switch.


Thank you for the update (although that would require rewiring for anyone who wired for 16 Wallys).
(DISH doesn't mention it on their website. At least not where I can find it.)


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## David Alderman (Sep 19, 2020)

James Long said:


> ....
> BTW: I created the following chart to show how DISH uses the bandwidth on the coax between the Node and the Hopper ---
> View attachment 29271
> 
> ...





James Long said:


> Basically correct ... with the note that the second output from the LNB will still be below 2150. The node will raise it to the higher frequency.
> View attachment 29275





James Long said:


> DISH Hopper/Hopper 2 with clients - Two Hoppers or a Hopper and a Super Joey
> View attachment 29289
> 
> 
> ...


Man, these are awesome! I am a tech for Dish and have the technical mindset, I've always wondered what the difference in LNBFs were, and how the equipment actually works... this is like an eye opener to me!

even though on your hopper3 example, you referred to the solo hub as a duo hub, lol


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