# Is overscan worse in L215?



## Jason Kragt (Dec 20, 2002)

I've got a cheap HDTV and overscan has always been a problem for me. However, I swear it has gotten worse with L215. Banners along the bottom of the screen are cut off more now than ever. Is anyone else noticing this, or am I being hypercritical of L215?


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

Overscan is definitely worse. I can no longer see the CNN crawlers as an example. 

However, you are only discovering the tip of the iceburg.

The real problem lies in the aspect ratios themselves. Before, when using 480i and a 4:3 Type #2 display to watch a 4:3 formatted SD show, you could select the Normal aspect ratio to fill the entire width of the widescreen. Then you could use the TV's superior stretch mode to prevent widening in the center of the screen so everyone did not look like Danny Devito. 

Now, with 215, when you select 480i and either 4:3 Types 1 or 2 and select Normal, you see a 4:3 format with bars on the sides. Then the only way to fill the 16:9 screen is to select Stretch, which distorts horizontally across the entire screen, rendering the TVs stretch modes worthless. 

And, in 480i mode, the top and bottom of the image is always cut off regardless of the aspect ratio chosen. You notice this most on CNN, where the crawlers are totally gone. You can only see them if you switch to an HD mode. Unfortunately, because SD programming has a better image when using 480i and S video output, I'm stuck with the screen cut off problem for most of my viewing.

So, unless you're willing to watch SD shows with bars on the sides, the only way to fill the widescreen is by stretching horizontally making everyone look fat! And, unless you're willing to watch SD shows on a less than stellar HD DVI output, the top and bottom of your image will always be lost. 

I definitely preferred the older formats, which let me choose the TV's aspect ratios and preserved the physical appearance of images in the center of the screen without loosing the CNN crawlers.


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## Indydave (Nov 28, 2004)

I recorded HDNET’s HD test pattern a few months back to check for overscan. Tonight when I turned the TV on the picture looked did not look as good as it has been, so I played back the recording to check it again. YES, the overscan problem that was bad to start with, is now worse.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

The overscan is higher than before both vertically and horizontally. It was 4-6% before and now 8-10% based on the HD Net test pattern using the DVI out. Component outputs were even worse when I tested it originally so I assume that the same case still applies.


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## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

I now only see the top half of the crawlers on CNN and almost none at all on MSNBC. 

Not long after I got my 921 I ventured into my TV's service menu and corrected the overscan issue (which of course then led to four hours of geometry corrections and fine-point convergence adjustments for all six screen modes). It looked great afterwards… but what a pain. 

I sure don’t want to go through all that again.


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## Jim Kosinsky (Jul 20, 2003)

To me this is just as frustrating as the AR bug if not moreso, as it will likely be treated as a 'minor issue' and will be assumed that most viewers won't notice. Well, I NOTICE. This is essentially an artifical cropping of the image and is unacceptable.

I don't complain much about my 921 (I have had some issues, but not as many as others) but things like this new bug are just rediculous. This problem will effect everything you view and as mentioned above it is difficult(and not recommended!) for most to make service menu adjustments to compensate--but we should not even have to consider such actions!

I have not had time to watch much since 215 was delivered, but in the time I have watched I noticed the overscan issue right away  as well as suffered a failed startup (A single timer was recording, and when powering-up the green light came on, the red REC light was on, but no HD/SD light. Had to hard reboot and lose the recording to get the thing working again).

I'm an incredibly patient person, especially with 'new' technology..but my patience with this hardware and the software folks has dried up. 

It is more than proven that the 921 will not be a stable machine under its current development team (beta testers, please take no offense--my statements are not directed toward you in any way!)..and considering the 921's age and history I doubt we'll ever see it any more stable than it is now. 

Yes, I can still use the 921. I'm just frustrated, disappointed and tired of each software release taking a few forward steps just to shuffle backwards in another new direction.


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## Allen Noland (Apr 23, 2002)

igleaner said:


> Overscan is definitely worse. I can no longer see the CNN crawlers as an example.
> 
> However, you are only discovering the tip of the iceburg.
> 
> ...


Help me out here. What size and type of screen are you outputing to? Assuming you have a 16x9 TV, why not set the output to 16x9, to match the screen shape, then select normal or gray bars (which will be at the sides), and THEN use the TV's non-linear horizontal stretch mode to get the screen width filled (or more-nearly filled)? I have mine set to 16x9 even when I'm outputing SD to my one 4x3 TV. When I use the 921 stretch it takes the bars off and fills the 4x3 TV.


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

I don't understand why the receiver should be adding *any* overscan. Do DVD players add overscan to their output? Do other Dish receivers do this, or is this purely another 921 bonus?

The overscan is the responsibility of the TV itself. The source should be providing a pristine image to the display. The display can then transform that image however it wants, including overscan, centering, color adjustment, etc. To do these things in the source signal seems to be inherently flawed, yes?


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## Jim Kosinsky (Jul 20, 2003)

Slordak said:


> I don't understand why the receiver should be adding *any* overscan. Do DVD players add overscan to their output? Do other Dish receivers do this, or is this purely another 921 bonus?
> 
> The overscan is the responsibility of the TV itself. The source should be providing a pristine image to the display. The display can then transform that image however it wants, including overscan, centering, color adjustment, etc. To do these things in the source signal seems to be inherently flawed, yes?


Yes. The sat receiver should pass on its signal to the display and do no more.


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## ericheiserman (Dec 10, 2004)

The overscan problem seems to be related to a fix in 215. I noticed that with the new release that when you use the feature to move the guide menu around now also moves the image. The I problem I noticed now is that if I adjust for my guide to fit the over scan is bad. I even tried to fix it from the service menu and it moves both the image and the guide.
I think I like the way that feature worked before better. Right now I have 4% vert and 10%, 6% horz. Other than that 215 has been working great for me. They should fix this issue but I have a feeling it will not happen.

Eric


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## Topanga (Aug 11, 2002)

At what time does HD NET broadcast their test pattern?

Thanks

Rick


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Topanga said:


> At what time does HD NET broadcast their test pattern?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rick


Tuesday at 8AM (EST) on channel 9422.

PS: The overscan issue also makes zoom mode even worse than before.


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## KKlare (Sep 24, 2004)

It is tricky to find it in the guide as it is less than 1/2 hour wide. Search for TEST PATTERN or go just before Tues. 8AM (EDT?) and step right to the crack.

On my Toshiba 46H83 (2003) I used the instructions on <http://www.bus.ucf.edu/cwhite/theater/ToshibaTips.htm> to get the Service mode -- use with care. From the service menu, I reduced the width and height, there were no HPOS/VPOS or Design Mode as on earlier models or I missed them. I got the overscan to about 3% top/bottom and 8% left and right, want less. Decreasing the width more would require another pass at the 56-point convergence so get the size first. A 3-color full pass requires several hours so take breaks with the RPTV to avoid burn in for the screen and you. Expect to do it again soon after and tune up again in say 6 months.

I used a vinyl sheet Magic-marked (markedly tighter spaced than prescribed on the web site) and this improved the linearity too. Vinyl is cheap, clear, and sticks to the glass but stretchy. You will not want to go back to auto convergence. Good differential linearity depends on uniform spacing and good integral linearity depends on having a grid. You can see the nonlinearity on film credit scrolls as characters move L/R and squeeze/separate.

-Ken


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## Rotryrkt (Dec 11, 2004)

Strange as my RCA DLP underscans from the DVI output and it is a little worse than L213. Picture fills the screen from all other outputs of the 921. I can get into service mode on my TV, but no luck changing any settings, it is locked and I can't find the combination. Thanks for the test pattern info, I have been trying to record it without success.

Bill


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## KKlare (Sep 24, 2004)

I looked through the guide and Test Patterns were not there this week just Intro to HDNet or such. So you may have to wait a week to record it.
-Ken


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## DaveSwartz (Jan 25, 2003)

I also had the feeling overscan was worse with L215 but I have a recording of the HDNet test pattern and was able to check it against what I had with L213. I see no change between L213 and L215 for the 1080i test pattern. I can see the scrolling text at the bottom of the screen on CNN but I did notice that I do not see much of the scrolling text on a local FOX OTA that broadcasts 720p. I'm wondering if there might be change that impacts 720p but not 1080i (at least with the DVI connection)


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## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

DaveSwartz said:


> I'm wondering if there might be change that impacts 720p but not 1080i (at least with the DVI connection)


Don't know about 720p (not displayable on my monitor), but 480p HD and 480i SD (RF, SV, and Composite outputs) sure have plenty of over-scan now -- about 8% to 10% more. 1080i has always had over-scan; L211 reduced it a bit, but L215 has put it back, and then some...


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

DaveSwartz said:


> I also had the feeling overscan was worse with L215 but I have a recording of the HDNet test pattern and was able to check it against what I had with L213. I see no change between L213 and L215 for the 1080i test pattern. I can see the scrolling text at the bottom of the screen on CNN but I did notice that I do not see much of the scrolling text on a local FOX OTA that broadcasts 720p. I'm wondering if there might be change that impacts 720p but not 1080i (at least with the DVI connection)


Since 215 my test pattern was 4-6% worse than before. My 921 is set to 1080i and using DVI. Original testing (back when L211 was out) I discovered that overscan was even worse with the component output versus the DVI. I'm assuming that's still the case but have not confirmed that or what the output looks when using the 720p setting. 
Also in "View Preferrence" mode you can adjust the screen position of the overlay which now affects the overall screen as well. It would be nice if they allowed adjustment for overscan because the screen position just makes one part worse as you try to make another part better.


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## Jim Kosinsky (Jul 20, 2003)

jergenf said:


> Also in "View Preferrence" mode you can adjust the screen position of the overlay which now affects the overall screen as well. It would be nice if they allowed adjustment for overscan because the screen position just makes one part worse as you try to make another part better.


I'd go insane with joy if there were a user-adjustable overscan option, but I don't think that will happen.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Someone asked this already....

If we're connecting a Digital Display (Plasma, DLP, LCD), with a digital cable (DVI) why do we need overscan and screen position adjustments at all? Where is the variance coming from?


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## Leroy (Jan 21, 2005)

I just did an overscan adjustment 2 weeks ago with Avia and it is quite different now with 215. It's ok but not ideal. Would rather have it as it was in 213. Otherwise 215 works good. I do now get OTA info for Los Angeles Pbs (KCET)

Overall at this point 215 is an improvment for me :hurah:


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

If one is putting in a new feature, and one is not certain that all users will benefit from the feature (or have a positive experience from the feature), the design is generally such that the feature should be optional. That is, it should be a user or menu setting, so that it doesn't impact those who would prefer to do without.

This "increase of overscan" is one such case. This really ought to be user adjustable, since there's apparently no setting that pleases everyone. Even though the source device shouldn't be adding any overscan, it's sort of a band-aid for poor HDTVs, and hence Dish probably feels they do have to provide something.


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## TBarclay (Mar 24, 2002)

I definitely do NOT like the overscan change. It cuts off half the ESPN ticker on one of my TVs. It never did that before.


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## KKlare (Sep 24, 2004)

It would seem clear how one sets overscan on an analog set but to change a digital picture's overscan would require interpolating or eliminating lines.

Could this be causing the reported speed bump/distortion? I have seen a bump in the vertical linearity but it is hard to check without a nice diagonal line, which will clearly show any duplication on one axis.

If we could adjust the horizontal overscan then we could get rid of the great overscan of the Stretch mode, maybe? I should go back and check if SD is 4:3.
-Ken


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## garyhesq (Nov 5, 2004)

I had my set ISF'ed by Eliab last week. The other day I recorded the HDNET test pattern and watched it when I got home from work. My overscan is showing 8% top to bottom and 12% on the sides through the 921. He has it set to a perfect 3% all around as far as the set goes. I don't know what it was before the IFS or 215. Also, using the TV menu and looking at the convergence, my set is perfect right now. Looking at the convergence screen of HDNET though the 921 my convergence has minor imperfections with areas of blue and red sticking out of the white lines. How can that be? Another thing I notice is that the color saturation is off since 215. I do a comparison between my 921 and my 6000 and there is a major difference there. There has always been a slight difference between the two receivers but it's now very noticeable. Anyone else have to back the color down with this update?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The 921 is introducing some overscan into the picture, but keep in mind that the HDNet overscan test pattern has an error in it, so you will never see it read the same amount of overscan that your television is set to. Don Landis proved this a year or so ago, and posted the mathematical conversion between reality and what the pattern shows.


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## dishbacker (Jun 15, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> The 921 is introducing some overscan into the picture, but keep in mind that the HDNet overscan test pattern has an error in it, so you will never see it read the same amount of overscan that your television is set to. Don Landis proved this a year or so ago, and posted the mathematical conversion between reality and what the pattern shows.


I agree with using the image to calculate the actual overscan amount in not accurate, but the HDNet test pattern can easily be used to show that I/we can see less screen now with L215 vs. what we could see with L213.


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## garyhesq (Nov 5, 2004)

Ok, so the HDNet pattern is not correct then. I missed the discussion about that. Thanks for the info.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Search for posts by DonLandis in the 921 support forum, and you should be able to find it.


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## Jim Kosinsky (Jul 20, 2003)

dishbacker said:


> I agree with using the image to calculate the actual overscan amount in not accurate, but the HDNet test pattern can easily be used to show that I/we can see less screen now with L215 vs. what we could see with L213.


Indeed. Regardless of the inaccuracy of the HDNet test screen, there exists an issue that certainly requires attention.


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## sharond999 (Jul 12, 2005)

Not to be dumb, but, what exactly is overscan? Is it perhaps what is causing the video noise (white or color spectrum dots and dashes) at the top of my screen on some channels (that apparently wasn't there until L215). I have a Dish 34" monitor--there is apparently no adjustment for convergence on this model.


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## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

Mark,
Do you know if the overscan problem (vertical stretched picture) is being worked on for the next version? I would rather see the black lines beside the picture like the previous version than see such overscan. Now you can get either a vertical stretched picture or if you fill the 16:9 screen you get a picture thats stretched horizontally. People are either too thin or too fat!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I do have confirmation that it's being looked at, Tony, but I don't know if it'll make the next version. They are trying very hard to get the next version out the door quickly to fix the guide data problems that came with this one.


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## 921Blues (May 29, 2005)

I've just spent some additional time doing a more thorough evaluation of L215 than I did before. Even though I like the fact that 4:3 SD images now have clean L/R edges (rather than the color artifacts in L213), L215 does appear to have introduced some new problems.

I generally use a show called 'Hollywood Red Carpet' on HDNet as a show to evaluate HD image quality because it is usually so blisteringly clear. I have noticed two things with L215.

1. Overscan. I agree with the all the above comments. The overscan is really annoying in both the horizontal and vertical directions. I lose the left and right edges and top and bottom edges of any banners that are too close to any one edge. For example, I lose the left star of the '*HRC*' logo that the show uses in it's banner for labels/names. In other cases, I lose bottom half of any words near the bottom of the screen. I would DEFINITELY like to see this corrected.

2. Pizelation. On the same show, I used to get virtually no pixelation, even on the fastest moving sequences. This was one of the reasons I used this show to evaluate images - like I said, AMAZINGLY clear. Not any more. Now during fast moving images or flashes, I get severe pizelation. It really reduces the impact of the image quality drastically. Again, this didn't happen with L213. Is this due to L215, or did Dish increase the compression ratio again?

Any thoughts?
921blues


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> The 921 is introducing some overscan into the picture, but keep in mind that the HDNet overscan test pattern has an error in it, so you will never see it read the same amount of overscan that your television is set to. Don Landis proved this a year or so ago, and posted the mathematical conversion between reality and what the pattern shows.


If I go into "View Preferences" menu I can change the positioning so that I can see lower numbers on the test pattern's scale however the opposite side will just get worse. I know the overall overscan is worse with 215 versus the previous release. Presently I have it set so that the guide info doesn't clip off any data. SD (4:3) programs are not exactly centered anymore (slightly right shifted).
You say there's a post of a problem with HDNet test pattern, do you have that link? Second are they working on a fix for this in 216?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I was incorrect with the credit - it was Cheezmo (Steve Martin, ISF calibrator extraordinare) who did the analysis:

http://www.smartcalibration.com/hdnetoverscan.html


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Maybe I'm just being stupid here, but why can't they just let US stretch the picture to fit our screens manually? If I can slide the picture up, down, left, and right from the preferences menu, why can't they figure a way to let us manually adjust the picture ourselves?

THis isn't brain surgery, send the Eldon boys a picture of ESPNNews and have them come up with a system that DOESN'T crop the picture.......


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## welchwarlock (Jan 5, 2005)

I have my TV calibrated to a 4% overscan in all modes, and ever since 2.15, I have to put my TV into 1080i mode to see many of the "crawlers". So if I am watching something in SD-Mode (Which is what I have to do to get the S-Video out to re-broadcast throught my house, since it will not output HD and SD at the same time) and want to see what was on the "crawler", I have to use the DVR rewind function, put the TV into HD mode.... 

Any idea why they changed the aspect ratio/zoom?

Regards,

WW


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