# TiVo vs. Dish: Settlement reached. Dish to pay $500 million



## Curtis52 (Oct 14, 2003)

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- Dish Network Corp. and EchoStar Corp. will pay TiVo Inc. $500 million to settle a patent lawsuit over digital video recorder technology, the companies said Monday.TiVo, based in Alviso, Calif., first sued Dish and EchoStar in 2004 for infringing on patents covering its "Time Warp" digital video recorder technology.
The recorders allow users to digitally record television programs and then play them back, as well as pause, fast-forward and rewind.
Under the settlement, Dish and EchoStar will initially pay TiVo $300 million. The remaining $200 million will be distributed in six annual installments between 2012 and 2017.
Also, TiVo granted Dish Network a license under its Time Warp patent and related patents until they expire. TiVo also granted EchoStar a license to make certain DVR-enabled products solely for Dish Network and two international customers.
EchoStar granted TiVo a license under patents EchoStar owns for TiVo-branded, co-branded and ingredient-branded products.
EchoStar is the former parent company of Dish Network and operates the satellites on which its service runs. It spun off Dish in 2008.
TiVo said it will also help Dish Network promote the Blockbuster digital video service. Dish bought Blockbuster Inc. out of bankruptcy last month.
The settlement deal comes on the heels of a decision by a panel of federal appeals judges holding Dish and EchoStar in contempt of court for failing to abide by an injunction. The judges had decided to send the case back to a lower court to consider whether technology being used in newer Dish boxes still infringes on TiVo's patents.
The April 20 ruling required Dish and EchoStar to disable the boxes and awarded $90 million in damages to TiVo. The settlement dismisses that judgment."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Dish-EchoStar-to-pay-500-apf-2157501236.html?x=0&.v=5


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

*TIVO, DISH NETWORK AND ECHOSTAR ANNOUNCE HALF-BILLION DOLLAR SETTLEMENT OF PATENT LITIGATION*​ 
*ALVISO, Calif., and ENGLEWOOD, Colo. - May 2, 2011* - TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO), DISH Network Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH), and EchoStar Corporation (NASDAQ: SATS) announced today that they have settled all of their ongoing patent litigation. 
Under the terms of the settlement, DISH Network and EchoStar agreed to pay TiVo $500 million, including an initial payment of $300 million with the remaining $200 million distributed in six equal annual installments between 2012 and 2017. TiVo, DISH Network and EchoStar agreed to dismiss all pending litigation between the companies with prejudice and to dissolve all injunctions against DISH Network and EchoStar. 
The parties also granted certain patent licenses to each other. TiVo granted DISH Network a license under its Time Warp patent (US Pat. No. 6,233,389) and certain related patents, for the remaining life of those patents. TiVo also granted EchoStar a license under the same '389 patent and certain related patents, for the remaining life of those patents, to design and make certain DVR-enabled products solely for DISH Network and two international customers. EchoStar granted TiVo a license under certain DVR-related patents for TiVo-branded, co-branded and ingredient-branded products. 
"We have tremendous respect for TiVo's management, and we have always said that regardless of the outcome of the case, there were many ways that we could work together with TiVo," said Charlie Ergen, Chairman and CEO of DISH Network. "The results of TiVo's formidable intellectual property enforcement program speak for themselves, and consequently, we are pleased to put this litigation behind us and move forward. Additionally, we believe that our agreement with TiVo provides us a competitive advantage as one of the few multichannel operators with rights to operate under TiVo's Time Warp patent, which ultimately will allow us to enhance the performance of our award-winning DVRs. We look forward to continuing to offer DISH Network customers the most choices in video service." 

"We are extremely pleased to reach an agreement with DISH Network and EchoStar which recognizes the value of our intellectual property," said Tom Rogers, president and CEO of TiVo. "The compensation from this settlement, including the resulting reduction in legal expenditures, puts TiVo in an enviable financial and strategic position. This settlement, which brings the total compensation paid by DISH Network for use of TiVo's '389 patent family to over $600 million, demonstrates the significant return afforded to our shareholders by diligent enforcement of TiVo's intellectual property rights. Those efforts will aggressively continue with other parties." 

In addition, TiVo will play a role in helping DISH Network promote the Blockbuster digital video service. Ergen added, "We are excited to work with TiVo to help develop our Blockbuster video service. Resolving the patent infringement case allows us to further engage with TiVo on a variety of exciting strategic initiatives, like Blockbuster, where we are uniquely positioned to collaborate."

*About TiVo Inc.
*Founded in 1997, TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ: TIVO) developed the first commercially available digital video recorder (DVR). TiVo offers the TiVo service and TiVo DVRs directly to consumers online at www.tivo.com and through third-party retailers. TiVo also distributes its technology and services through solutions tailored for cable, satellite, and broadcasting companies. Since its founding, TiVo has evolved into the ultimate single solution media center by combining its patented DVR technologies and universal cable box capabilities with the ability to aggregate, search, and deliver millions of pieces of broadband, cable, and broadcast content directly to the television. An economical, one-stop-shop for in-home entertainment, TiVo's intuitive functionality and ease of use puts viewers in control by enabling them to effortlessly navigate the best digital entertainment content available through one box, with one remote, and one user interface, delivering the most dynamic user experience on the market today. TiVo also continues to weave itself into the fabric of the media industry by providing interactive advertising solutions and audience research and measurement ratings services to the television industry. www.tivo.com

TiVo and the TiVo Logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries worldwide. © 2011 TiVo Inc. All rights reserved. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

*About DISH Network*
DISH Network Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH), through its subsidiary DISH Network L.L.C., provides more than 14.19 million satellite TV customers, as of March 31, 2011, with the highest quality programming and technology with the most choices at the best value, including HD Free for Life. Subscribers enjoy industry-leading customer satisfaction, the largest high definition line-up with more than 200 national HD channels, the most international channels, and award-winning HD and DVR technology. DISH Network Corporation is a Fortune 200 company. Visit www.dish.com.

*About EchoStar Corporation *
EchoStar Corporation (Nasdaq: SATS), provides equipment sales, digital broadcast operations, and satellite services that enhance today's digital TV lifestyle, including products from Sling Media, Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary. Headquartered in Englewood, Colo., EchoStar has more than 25 years of experience designing, developing and distributing award-winning television set-top boxes and related products for pay television providers and is creating hardware and service solutions for cable, Telco, IPTV and satellite TV companies. EchoStar includes a network of 10 digital broadcast centers and leased fiber optic capacity. EchoStar also delivers satellite services through 10 satellites and related FCC licenses. For more information, please visit www.EchoStar.com.
###​


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## Sim-X (Sep 24, 2009)

Well hey now they will have some cash to finish the DirecTV DVR that will never get done.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Hah! And now, Charlie moves on.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

Sim-X said:


> Well hey now they will have some cash to finish the DirecTV DVR that will never get done.


I wouldn't hold my breath on that one but good for the two to settle. Looks to me a little less than what Charlie's offer before the en banc order came down when he offered about $120M a year for the life of the patent.

So he pays a $500M lump sum, gets to use the patents, hopefully Dish DVRs can consume less energy now and save subs' electric bills a little

As far as Blockbuster, I also wish them success, I have always said, the two companies are like minded, they need each other more than anyone else, it is time to put some real pressure on Netflix. As a DirecTV sub, it is also a good news because DirecTV will have to step up too.


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## rjruby (Dec 29, 2002)

jacmyoung said:


> So he pays a $500M lump sum, gets to use the patent, hopefully Dish DVRs can consume less energy now and save subs' electric bills a little


Actually he pays $300M now and $200M over 6 years.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Wow, two things I didn't think I'd see anytime soon happen within days of each other. Bin Laden is killed by US Forces and E* and TiVo settle their patent disputes! :icon_peac

I hope this means improved performance for the E* DVRs going forward. I really love my 622s, don't get me wrong, but it could always be even better - right?!


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

rjruby said:


> Actually he pays $300M now and $200M over 6 years.


My bad, $300M plus $33M a year till the end of patent life. The guy probably owed TiVo at least $100M (in addition to the $110M he already paid a few years back) for the use of the old software before he replaced it with the new software, with interest and other fees, this is basically a $33M a year licensing deal to use TiVo's patents plus covering TiVo's legal bills.


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## klang (Oct 14, 2003)

Who, if anyone, actually won this?


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

klang said:


> Who, if anyone, actually won this?


I think they both did. They were both suffering competitively against the bigger companies as DirecTV, ATT/Uverse and Verizon have taken their subs away.

For those who predicted years of fight to come, it is a big surprise I'd say


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## DishTSR3Mentor (Nov 3, 2006)

I knew the second Charlie bought Blockbuster that he would be more able to deal with Tivo because Blockbuster is a major retailer for Tivo standalone dvrs. I'm sure all he had to do was say, "we're yanking tivo from Blockbuster" to bring them to the table.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

jacmyoung said:


> I think they both did. They were both suffering competitively against the bigger companies as DirecTV, ATT/Uverse and Verizon have taken their subs away.
> 
> For those who predicted years of fight to come, it is a big surprise I'd say


A Pleasant surprise - now they can move on to other issues.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Sim-X said:


> Well hey now they will have some cash to finish the DirecTV DVR that will never get done.


TiVo needs some serious fundage to bulk up their war chest to continue to defend their patents. The whole proceeding did a lot more harm than good to TiVo's case.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

IF I read the settlement properly, Echostar is permitted to continue to sell to its existing customer base, but not to new customers. This would explain the stock action on SATS this morning. I sold all my SATS stock on reading the settlement, which is certainly not in their favor from my reading. Anyone read this any differently? 

Overall, the settlement is MUCH smaller than I had anticipated AND spreading it out over time makes it even smaller.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Richard King said:


> Overall, the settlement is MUCH smaller than I had anticipated AND spreading it out over time makes it even smaller.


You answered your own question here. This closes the door on the uncertainty of disablement as well as the size of the awards/settlements. I think you may have goofed with the divestiture.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

All I can say is, it's about time.


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## klang (Oct 14, 2003)

Richard King said:


> IF I read the settlement properly, Echostar is permitted to continue to sell to its existing customer base, but not to new customers.


Where do you see this? Hard to believe Dish would agree to that.

Edit: Do you mean new Dish customers or Echostar making DVR's for additional companies?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Richard King said:


> IF I read the settlement properly, Echostar is permitted to continue to sell to its existing customer base, but not to new customers. This would explain the stock action on SATS this morning. I sold all my SATS stock on reading the settlement, which is certainly not in their favor from my reading. Anyone read this any differently?


According to post #1, it doesn't appear that way at all to me. Are you reading something else?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

It's good that both companies finally came to their senses. It really made no sense to fight this hard as it was just a big money pit for both.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"lparsons21" said:


> According to post #1, it doesn't appear that way at all to me. Are you reading something else?


You are correct, there is no such thing, they settled all disputes in this litigation, Dish can use TiVo's patents, if they could not do this or that then they did not get to use them.


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## camo (Apr 15, 2010)

The new settlement reported by Citigroup analyst Jason Bazinet said the $500 million total works out to about a 40-cent licensing fee per Dish DVR per month from 2006 to 2021, when TiVo's most important patent expires. 

This settlement dismisses the April 20 judgment requiring Dish and EchoStar to disable the boxes and awarded $90 million in damages to TiVo. 

In return TiVo said it will also help Dish Network promote the Blockbuster digital video service and EchoStar is granting TiVo a license to use some of its patents.

Just one big happy family now.


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## Surveyor40 (Jan 5, 2006)

I feel like I just walked into the " Twilight Zone ". Osama killed, Tivo & Echostar make up and become friends, last weeks tornadoes, the world is coming to an end in 2012.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> It's good that both companies finally came to their senses. It really made no sense to fight this hard as it was just a big money pit for both.


+1!!


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Surveyor40" said:


> I feel like I just walked into the " Twilight Zone ". Osama killed, Tivo & Echostar make up and become friends, last weeks tornadoes, the world is coming to an end in 2012.


I don't know about that but I did say they could always settle and if so, the TiVo people were likely not going to be happy about whatever the settlement was.

Seeing that DISH is up almost 16%, TiVo about a little over 5% for now, I guess the TiVo investors aren't as happy as DISH's at this time.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Richard King said:


> IF I read the settlement properly, Echostar is permitted to continue to sell to its existing customer base, but not to new customers. This would explain the stock action on SATS this morning. I sold all my SATS stock on reading the settlement, which is certainly not in their favor from my reading. Anyone read this any differently?
> 
> Overall, the settlement is MUCH smaller than I had anticipated AND spreading it out over time makes it even smaller.


Well this part of the news release is a little unclear:


> The parties also granted certain patent licenses to each other. TiVo granted DISH Network a license under its Time Warp patent (US Pat. No. 6,233,389) and certain related patents, for the remaining life of those patents. TiVo also _*granted EchoStar a license*_ under the same '389 patent and certain related patents, for the remaining life of those patents, _*to design and make certain DVR-enabled products solely for DISH Network and two international customers*_. EchoStar granted TiVo a license under certain DVR-related patents for TiVo-branded, co-branded and ingredient-branded products.


But my assumption is that the emphasized phrase applies to the listed "infringing" boxes which were subject to the injunction. Those were MPEG2 boxes which, as we know, Dish is phasing out in the United States and based on Aransay's latest posts maybe even planning to phase out in Mexico.

I didn't know Blockbuster sold TiVo units when I posted this on Saturday:


phrelin said:


> There seems to me to be a great deal of incentive for TiVo to settle for some reasonable licensing fee to avoid any consideration of the "design around." But there certainly are some bull-headed people on both sides of this.


With the information that one of Charlie's many arms will be retailing TiVo boxes, a settlement for a reasonable licensing fee was inevitable IMHO.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"phrelin" said:


> Well this part of the news release is a little unclear: But my assumption is that the emphasized phrase applies to the listed "infringing" boxes which were subject to the injunction. Those were MPEG2 boxes which, as we know, Dish is phasing out in the United States and based on Aransay's latest posts maybe even planning to phase out in Mexico.
> 
> I didn't know Blockbuster sold TiVo units when I posted this on Saturday: With the information that one of Charlie's many arms will be retailing TiVo boxes, a settlement for a reasonable licensing fee was inevitable IMHO.


Dish installers are still installing the 625s. This model is one of the 8 named DVRs.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

RasputinAXP said:


> Hah! And now, Charlie moves on.


I can't believe it's over.:eek2::eek2:


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## Curtis52 (Oct 14, 2003)

phrelin said:


> Well this part of the news release is a little unclear: But my assumption is that the emphasized phrase applies to the listed "infringing" boxes which were subject to the injunction. Those were MPEG2 boxes which, as we know, Dish is phasing out in the United States and based on Aransay's latest posts maybe even planning to phase out in Mexico


Dish has a complete license for the '389 patent for all of it's DVRs.

TiVo granted DISH a license to its '389 patent, including specified related patents and patent applications, with respect to DISH-branded and co-branded products and services.​ http://biz.yahoo.com/e/110502/tivo8-k.html


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

With regard to the TiVo license under the settlement, Echostar included this in its quartely under Note 14 Subsequent Events, though I'm not sure it clarifies anything regarding Richard's question:


> In addition, under the settlement agreement, TiVo granted us a license under its '389 patent and certain related patents, for the remaining life of those patents, solely to design and make certain DVR-enabled products for DISH Network and two international customers, including rights for those customers to import, use, and sell those products and authorize the use of those products by their subscribers. The license also covers all future use of products that subscribers of DISH Network and those customers put into use before the settlement was entered into, including as updated in the future. We granted TiVo a license under certain DVR-related patents held by us for TiVo-branded, co-branded or ingredient branded products.


In it's quarterly Dish gives its perception of the settlement as it affects its finances in the subsequent events Note 11 as follows:


> *TiVo Inc. *
> 
> In connection with our litigation with TiVo Inc. ("TiVo"), which is described in our periodic reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including in our annual report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2010 under the caption "Item 3. Legal Proceedings - TiVo Inc.," on April 20, 2011, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit vacated the District Court's contempt ruling on infringement, articulated a new standard for determining "colorable difference" and remanded that issue back to the District Court for determination. The Federal Circuit also vacated the District Court's amended injunction requiring that we inform the court of any further attempts to design around TiVo's United States Patent No. 6,233,389 (the '389 patent) and seek approval from the court before any such design-around is implemented. The Federal Circuit also vacated the infringement damages for the period after we deployed our original alternative technology (although it did not foreclose that damages may be reinstated if upon remand a new court or jury decision found that the original alternative technology infringed TiVo's '389 patent). The Federal Circuit affirmed the District Court's contempt ruling on disablement, holding that the original 2006 injunction required that we disable DVR functionality in all but approximately 192,000 digital set-top boxes deployed with customers (the "Disablement Provision") and affirmed the $90 million in contempt sanctions awarded against us for violating the Disablement Provision.
> 
> ...


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"phrelin" said:


> In it's quarterly Dish gives its perception of the settlement as it affects its finances in the subsequent events Note 11 as follows:


Of course it does, Dish will pay TiVo $33.3M each year for the next 6 years


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

Tivo is going to have to get a lot more money in licensing to stay in business as something other than a patent holding company. Perhaps they should just sell the hardware business and license the patent since they don't seem to be able to make money with the current business model.


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

TiVo's big disadvantage is the fact that they are slave to CableCards (2 for a Series 3, one multistream card for a TiVo HD/HDXL or Premiere/PremiereXL), which must be rented from the cable company. Further, since many cable companies have begu using switched digital video, TiVo subscribers must have a switched digital video adapter (such as the Cisco STA1520) for each TiVo High Definition DVR (series 3,TiVo HD/HDXL, Premiere/PremiereXL) they own. 
Since bidirectional CableCards have not seen the light of day, TiVo owners are unable to avail themselves of Cable Company video on demand content.

If any of the Echostar patents now available to TiVo can circumvent the CableCard dilemma, TiVo will benefit greatly.


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

Sim-X said:


> Well hey now they will have some cash to finish the DirecTV DVR that will never get done.


Never? Damn, I wonder what this TiVo unit in my office that we're alpha testing is for then. :lol:


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Satelliteracer" said:


> Never? Damn, I wonder what this TiVo unit in my office that we're alpha testing is for then. :lol:


It can be a collector's item.


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## DavidMi (Aug 24, 2009)

"jacmyoung" said:


> It can be a collector's item.


It's so out of date now that it is already a collectors item before it ever co es out... If it ever comes out.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Good ... maybe DISH will turn on the old Tivo code that they removed and the DVRs will go back to working better on trick plays. 

$500 Million isn't bad. It is a win for both parties.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Today was an interesting day for shareholders of both companies. Here's five day charts for both stocks:








How long those big share price jumps will hold is a question.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> How long those big share price jumps will hold is a question.


We can't predict ... literally - we can't predict. Doing so would be breaking the forum rules as they pertain to predicting the stock market.

So please folks ... don't predict stock values.

It is good to see a "jump" in DISH's value ... although the good quarterly report likely had more to do with that than the Tivo deal.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Whle not predicting, it's interesting to see the comparision of Echostar vs. Dish since the split. Echostar is up just a hair under 20% while Dish is barely in positive territory (thank you today). Tivo had been up just under 100%, but is now up less than Echostar and more than Dish (around 12% or so). DirecTv, on the other hand is up just under 100%.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Here's a more interesting chart for Tivo, covering 10 days (the day off is Good Friday):


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Richard King" said:


> Whle not predicting, it's interesting to see the comparision of Echostar vs. Dish since the split. Echostar is up just a hair under 20% while Dish is barely in positive territory (thank you today). Tivo had been up just under 100%, but is now up less than Echostar and more than Dish (around 12% or so). DirecTv, on the other hand is up just under 100%.


What are you comparing? 5-year, one year or one day?


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"James Long" said:


> We can't predict ... literally - we can't predict. Doing so would be breaking the forum rules as they pertain to predicting the stock market.
> 
> So please folks ... don't predict stock values.
> 
> It is good to see a "jump" in DISH's value ... although the good quarterly report likely had more to do with that than the Tivo deal.


Of course it had mostly to do with the settlement.


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## Willh (Jan 1, 2009)

i said this on the other site and i'll say it here:



> i can't believe Dish and TiVo settle, i kinda figured that Dish would settle with Disney or Cablevision's Rainbow/MSG over the channel disputes over TiVo but at least the TiVo thing is over, but get ready to fell it in your wallet, I'm calling it now, Dish will be fore to increase something to pay off the TiVo licenses and lawsuit settlement payment. whether it's in the packages pricing or the DVR fee rates, one way or another, something will go up in the billing department.


note that i put this in a quote due to saying it on that site and the copy/pasted it here, so i could quote myself.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

The following is part of what Charlie said during the call:



> And we both won battles, and I think now we are in a situation where I hope that we go win the war and I hope that TiVo goes and wins the war. And TiVo will do that by continuing to enforce their intellectual property with others and utilizing their cash and their expertise to grow their business. And hopefully, we'll win the war by making our products better and working with them in the future.


Just like one day before E* and TiVo went to the court hearing talking about the increased royalty back in 2008, DirecTV entered the new DirecTiVo agreement, which stipulated a "significantly higher fee" to boost TiVo's argument by increasing the rate from $1.00 up to $2.25, back then DirecTV used such agreement to put pressure on Dish, its direct competitor.

Today, part of this agreement with TiVo will allow TiVo some perceived advantage to go after ATT and Verizon, which are Dish's direct competitors. Charlie is doing the same thing DirecTV did in 2008. Although if ATT/MS and Verizon are smart enough, they would see TiVo lost a lot of ground, not gained much. But the perception is often times not the same as the reality.

In the other thread I talked about the i4i v. MS case, where MS actually got the Supreme Court to review the case. MS could be more stubborn than Charlie


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

jacmyoung said:


> What are you comparing? 5-year, one year or one day?


Since the split of Dish Network and Echostar.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> Good ... maybe DISH will turn on the old Tivo code that they removed and the DVRs will go back to working better on trick plays.


That's EXACTLY what I'm hoping for, it used to work much better than it does now.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jacmyoung said:


> [...] DirecTV entered the new DirecTiVo agreement, which stipulated a "significantly higher fee" to boost TiVo's argument *by increasing the rate from $1.00 up to $2.25*


I was aware the "significantly higher fee" was made public, with other parts of the new agreement, but not the specific dollar amounts. I'm curious, are those official numbers?


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## Surveyor40 (Jan 5, 2006)

Interesting how the stock market reacted to the news yesterday. Wonder how both shares will be effected a month or two down the road. I imagine both will stabilize just slightly above their share price prior to the settlement. Dish has spent quite a bit of money the last couple of weeks. Buying Blockbuster out of bankruptcy and settling with Tivo. Wonder if Echostar now owning Blockbuster and Tivo having Blockbuster on Demand reinforced Charlie needing Tivo more than Tivo needed Charlie. None the less, both companies are now able to put this distraction behind them.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Steve" said:


> I was aware the "significantly higher fee" was made public, with other parts of the new agreement, but not the specific dollar amounts. I'm curious, are those official numbers?


You mean the $2.25 rate? No. The point was the timing. Charlie clearly saw the continued fight with TiVo only would benefit his competitors not him. ATT/MS and Verizon/Motorola have been using the PTO reexamination Charlie filed against TiVo to their own advantage because TiVo was forced to narrow the claim scope to overcome the PTO's rejection, even though they managed not to modify the claim terms.

Charlie took a page out of DirecTV's playbook.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Surveyor40" said:


> Interesting how the stock market reacted to the news yesterday. Wonder how both shares will be effected a month or two down the road. I imagine both will stabilize just slightly above their share price prior to the settlement. Dish has spent quite a bit of money the last couple of weeks. Buying Blockbuster out of bankruptcy and settling with Tivo. Wonder if Echostar now owning Blockbuster and Tivo having Blockbuster on Demand reinforced Charlie needing Tivo more than Tivo needed Charlie. None the less, both companies are now able to put this distraction behind them.


At this moment, TiVo is already below the pre-settlement level.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jacmyoung said:


> You mean the $2.25 rate? No [...]


So that was an "e.g.". Thanks for clarifying. Might want to edit that original post.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jacmyoung said:


> [...]The point was the timing. Charlie clearly saw the continued fight with TiVo only would benefit his competitors not him. ATT/MS and Verizon/Motorola have been using the PTO reexamination Charlie filed against TiVo to their own advantage because TiVo was forced to narrow the claim scope to overcome the PTO's rejection, even though they managed not to modify the claim terms.
> 
> Charlie took a page out of DirecTV's playbook.


I think you're assuming weakening ATT/MS and Verizon/Motorola positions wouldn't benefit DirecTV as much, if not more.

Seems to me Charlie may have used the threat of continuing his defense (and potentially creating a harmful precedent for TiVO in those other pending suits) to negotiate a less expensive settlement settlement and more favorable licensing terms than it would have cost him a year or more ago, if I understand the facts correctly.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Steve" said:


> I think you're assuming weakening ATT/MS and Verizon/Motorola positions wouldn't benefit DirecTV as much, if not more.


I quoted it right out of Charlie's own mouth how his agreement might weaken ATT/MS and Verizon/Motorola, I never said that would not possibly benefit DirecTV therefore no such assumption was ever made by me. Please don't read more than what I said.


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## david_jr (Dec 10, 2006)

James Long said:


> Good ... maybe DISH will turn on the old Tivo code that they removed and the DVRs will go back to working better on trick plays.
> 
> $500 Million isn't bad. It is a win for both parties.


So does the $500 Mil actually buy software or does it just allow them to use what they've been using?


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## dfd (Aug 29, 2008)

"david_jr" said:


> So does the $500 Mil actually buy software or does it just allow them to use what they've been using?


Rarely is software bought. It is licensed for use, distribution, etc. but it is still owned by the licensor.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

The way the market reacted, I could be wrong for saying they both won. The TiVo folks here could be right, I had been wrong on every issue about this litigation.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> The way the market reacted, I could be wrong for saying they both won. The TiVo folks here could be right, I had been wrong on every issue about this litigation.


Quite possibly - although I believe the settlement remains a "win-win" (a low price for DISH and the end of living under the cloud of lawyers for Tivo).

Now DISH can stop worrying about developing "non-infringing" software and Tivo can get back to developing products.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

James Long said:


> ...Tivo can get back to developing products.


For who?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> For who?


For themselves, DISH and DirecTV ... if not other companies.

Not losing the lawsuit also allows Tivo to continue their licensing push against other DVR manufacturers who may be in violation of Tivo's patent. A loss would have ended any hope of Tivo pursuing others.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"James Long" said:


> For themselves, DISH and DirecTV ... if not other companies.
> 
> Not losing the lawsuit also allows Tivo to continue their licensing push against other DVR manufacturers who may be in violation of Tivo's patent. A loss would have ended any hope of Tivo pursuing others.


All of the above must be watched with the greatest level of skepticism, I think the TiVo folks know it whenever they see Charlie's lips moving in their favor


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

jacmyoung said:


> Dish installers are still installing the 625s. This model is one of the 8 named DVRs.


Which is one of the best DVRs out there with 2-120 minute live buffers and 150 hours recording time I really enjoyed mine when I used it.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

"jacmyoung" said:


> All of the above must be watched with the greatest level of skepticism, I think the TiVo folks know it whenever they see Charlie's lips moving in their favor


Careful, now! Charlie's selling TiVo equipment in his Blockbuster stores.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Jhon69" said:


> Which is one of the best DVRs out there with 2-120 minute live buffers and 150 hours recording time I really enjoyed mine when I used it.


I waited long enough for my 625 to be ordered shut off so Dish would upgrade me to HD, it never came so I took a good DirecTV HD deal and switched


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

jacmyoung said:


> I waited long enough for my 625 to be ordered shut off so Dish would upgrade me to HD, it never came so I took a good DirecTV HD deal and switched


I can understand that move.

Wouldn't work for me as D* hasn't yet brought up a couple channels in HD that I want and I'm not fond of D*'s HRs although I hear good things about the HR24.

One other thing that would make a switch a bit painful is losing everything on the EHD. Both from making the switch, and then with the way D* does theirs, losing it again anytime an HR dies. I could live with this, but I wouldn't like it.


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## HiDefGator (Nov 20, 2005)

lparsons21 said:


> I'm not fond of D*'s HRs although I hear good things about the HR24.


The HR24 is exactly like all the other HR's only a little bit faster. I doubt you could tell the difference very quickly in a blind test.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> The HR24 is exactly like all the other HR's only a little bit faster. I doubt you could tell the difference very quickly in a blind test.


The speed of response to the remote was the sole reason I left D* when I did. It was either cancel D* or throw the remote out the picture window!!


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"lparsons21" said:


> The speed of response to the remote was the sole reason I left D* when I did. It was either cancel D* or throw the remote out the picture window!!


Even today I still miss the responsive Dish remote. Dish is finally coming out with its own MRV HDDVR, Charlie even repeatedly talked about the "gold standard" of DirecTV. I hope he is serious about catering to those who left Dish and went to DirecTV, not for sports, but DirecTV simply has a better deal for those who need several HDDVRs, networked.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Yeah, I saw that on the other site too. No prices yet, but it does look interesting and assuming all works as described, it is the next step in whole home DVR. Better than D*'s current one, but I doubt D* will be far behind with improving their MRV.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

I believe there was mention on the D* side of DBSTalk of a 5 tuner DVR that D* has plans for.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=188589


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

BNUMM said:


> I believe there was mention on the D* side of DBSTalk of a 5 tuner DVR that D* has plans for.
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=188589


Interesting, thanks for the link and info. I noticed that nothing about it has been posted since January. I wonder how far along in the developement/release cycle they are now?

Edit: oops, my mistake. For some reason when I looked at the thread, only one page showed up with no indication of more. When I went back to read, seems there is many more pages.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

I found a reference that said it had been certified by Underwriters Lab. but I also found a reference that said it may be delayed until 2012 because of new technology that has become available.


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## HiDefGator (Nov 20, 2005)

lparsons21 said:


> The speed of response to the remote was the sole reason I left D* when I did. It was either cancel D* or throw the remote out the picture window!!


My impression is that remote repsonse is directly tied to how many channels are currently recording. But it is worse at times and better at others. maybe something else going on in the box at the same time.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

HiDefGator said:


> My impression is that remote repsonse is directly tied to how many channels are currently recording. But it is worse at times and better at others. maybe something else going on in the box at the same time.


I put up with the slowness for quite some time, about 2 years. But as each passing update made it ever slower, I decided to make a change. I never found any combo of things going on that made any noticeable difference.

I thought then, and still firmly believe, that the HR21 was underpowered by a poor design.

That said, I wouldn't say I'd never go back to D* as I was OK with them during my subscription period. I will say I wouldn't go back until they add a slew of national HD and do something about how they use the EHD.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

jacmyoung said:


> I waited long enough for my 625 to be ordered shut off so Dish would upgrade me to HD, it never came so I took a good DirecTV HD deal and switched


Now that would have been a good idea and would have worked if you were on the Eastern Arc.
Now with the Dish Network/Tivo agreement Dish Network's 625 will keep going,and going......(just like that bunny).


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

James Long said:


> For themselves, DISH and DirecTV ... if not other companies.
> 
> Not losing the lawsuit also allows Tivo to continue their licensing push against other DVR manufacturers who may be in violation of Tivo's patent. A loss would have ended any hope of Tivo pursuing others.


And let's not forget Echostar has it's own DVR patent.Wouldn't that be too unbelievable? Tivo and Echostar sueing companies for violations of their DVR patents!.:eek2:


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

So the new spelling rule that comes after this with Echostar and Dish Network being two companies now with their Tivo agreement would be E before D except after T?.


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## dgordo (Aug 29, 2004)

Jhon69 said:


> And let's not forget Echostar has it's own DVR patent.Wouldn't that be too unbelievable? Tivo and Echostar sueing companies for violations of their DVR patents!.:eek2:


There is speculation that echostar will be seeking to join the suits against att, verizon, etc.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

dgordo said:


> There is speculation that echostar will be seeking to join the suits against att, verizon, etc.


Man if that's true then some are really going to believe Hell has frozen over!.


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## dgordo (Aug 29, 2004)

I suppose it doesn't really matter now, but he thinks Echostar got a sweet deal all things considered.

http://ipwatchdog.com/2011/05/02/tivo-dish-and-echostar-the-500-million-patent-settlement/id=16740/



> The Federal Circuit explained that as a practical matter district courts never really separately determined the propriety of a contempt proceeding before proceeding to the merits of the contempt itself. As a result, the Federal Circuit telescoped the two-fold KSM inquiry into one inquiry, thereby eliminating the separate determination whether contempt proceedings were properly initiated. The new inquiry now asks whether the newly accused product is so different from the product previously found to infringe that it raises "a fair ground of doubt as to the wrongfulness of the defendant's conduct." What is required for a district court to hold a contempt proceeding is a detailed accusation from the injured party setting forth the alleged facts constituting the contempt. Determining how to proceed based on the unique circumstances is left to the broad discretion of the trial court to be answered based on the facts presented.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

Comcast and TiVo just terminated their pervious licensing agreement, entered into a new agreement to make Comcast VOD library available to the TiVo Premiere subs.

The previous agreement was desigened more for TiVo to collect license fees, but not this new agreement. This seems to indicate TiVo's infringement claims have been wakened since the en banc ruling.

After the en banc, TiVo accepted a lump sum deal from Charlie, not an on-going license deal, then terminated the Comcast license deal.

I wonder who is the next? DirecTV has a similar license deal with TiVo but the new DirecTiVo has been delayed again and again...


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

Today the CAFC en banc panel denied E* and TiVo's joint motion to dismiss the case. The mandate will issue in a few days.

I thought I would never get the answer but it appears we will find out if the mandate will lift the stay of the injunction or if there is even an effective injunction at this point.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

jacmyoung said:


> Today the CAFC en banc panel denied E* and TiVo's joint motion to dismiss the case. The mandate will issue in a few days.
> 
> I thought I would never get the answer but it appears we will find out if the mandate will lift the stay of the injunction or if there is even an effective injunction at this point.


I suppose the court wants to "publish" this decision since it appears they have altered precedent?


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"phrelin" said:


> I suppose the court wants to "publish" this decision since it appears they have altered precedent?


The decision was already issued. The CAFC basically said since the settlement came late, the parties will have to ask the district court to dismiss the case, they were simply too late to try to erase the appeal.

So we get to maybe find out whether Charlie paid TiVo too much or not

What Comcast and DirecTV have been able to do puts Charlie's attorneys to shame.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

> JUDGMENT AFFIRMING in Part, VACATED in Part and REMANDED case to district court; issuing as Mandated on 5/10/2011 (Attachments: # 1 Judgement (Mandate))(sm, ) (Entered: 05/16/2011)


So the above was the "mandate" issued on 5/10/11 from the en banc, finally showed up at the E. TX district court, I looked at the attachment, it was plainly a copy of the ruling issued on 4/20/2011 by the en banc panel, no more, no less.

I guess I was more than likely correct that the injunction was no longer there after the ruling, after one provision in it was vacated, therefore there was no need to lift the stay of the injunction or even mentioning it. As I said, Charlie was wrong for thinking he was still subject to an injunction. He overpaid TiVo in the settlement.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

Please forgive me if this is a stupid question since I am no financial expert, in today's TiVo earning report, they added the $300M as part of their 1st quarter earning. I thought Charlie just wired them the money less than a month ago, how was the money considered Q1 earning?


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## Tower Guy (Jul 27, 2005)

jacmyoung said:


> Please forgive me if this is a stupid question since I am no financial expert, in today's TiVo earning report, they added the $300M as part of their 1st quarter earning. I thought Charlie just wired them the money less than a month ago, how was the money considered Q1 earning?


It's based on when the money was committed, not when it was received.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Tower Guy" said:


> It's based on when the money was committed, not when it was received.


I recall that $300M was put in escrow a year ago.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jacmyoung said:


> Please forgive me if this is a stupid question since I am no financial expert, in today's TiVo earning report, they added the $300M as part of their 1st quarter earning.


TiVo's Q1 runs from February 1st to April 30th.

You don't have to be a financial expert (or even a serious investor) to read the TiVo investor relations FAQ.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It was the first quarter where they could juggle the books to add it on. Technically the money was earned over the past few years, as the settlement covers the past as well as the future granting DISH/SATS to use their patent. It wasn't announced until Tivo's 2nd quarter (Tivo runs a month later than the calendar, but 1Q ended before the announcement) but it was earned prior to May 1st. Prior to 2011 actually, but going back and revising all of their quarterly/annual reports is a problem.

They probably stuck it on 1Q instead of 2Q because they needed it there.


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## mickeymouse (Feb 19, 2011)

How will this affect DN customers? That IS a lot of money that DN has to shell out. Looks like we should expect another price increase for existing customers. They won't probably touch new customers to woo them into a 2 year contract.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"mickeymouse" said:


> How will this affect DN customers? That IS a lot of money that DN has to shell out. Looks like we should expect another price increase for existing customers. They won't probably touch new customers to woo them into a 2 year contract.


Charlie had put the $300M away a long time ago, finally wired it to TiVo. In fact as a result of the settlement he should be able to have the court release the bond money so you should see a price drop


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