# aligning dish



## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

ok, if you have read my problems with keeping a signal, here is another question, i think

this morning, after working all night, I raised my mounting about a foot to try to clear whatever is giving me a 40% signal instead of the 90's I had when i first setup a few months ago..

here's the question...

I eyeball the area I should be pointed at (my neighbor has the same dish I have and that's how I set up initially a few months ago)...

I hook up my sat finder meter, which has a meter on it numbered 1-10 and has a tone and a fine tune knob, it either generates a tone or doesn't, and it is either 0 on the meter or 10...

I then adjust the dish as I use the fine tune knob, I'm picking 2 sat's up (I think) 6 inches apart when moving the dish left to right..

I align on the one that is closest to the eyeball alignment with the other guy, I get good tone on both cables..

I go inside, hook the meter up and get good tone on both cables (being careful not to move the fine tune knob)..

but, I get nothing on the receiver, while watching the screen and moving the dish, with the meter hooked up (which the tuner will still pickup with the meter there), I get nothing on the receiver while I get good tone moving in a small range while I still have tone..

there is cloud cover, but if I get a tone from the meter, shouldn't I get something on my receiver...

any ideas


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## sheridan1952 (Mar 16, 2006)

Only if you're on the the right satellite. They're so close up there that even just a few degrees off will get a different sat and you will get tones. That's the problem with that meter, it doesn't tell you what sat you're on. Instead of eyeballing the other guy's dish, get the alignment numbers on start there. Use the built-in strength meter on the receiver to get close and then you can use your handheld meter to fine tune. Cloud cover won't make any difference.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Nosey, after to verify you have a singal have you reset the R15 or done a system test. Carl found out if you turn on the R15 with no satillte signal or with out a cable connected that you have to reset or do a system test for the signal meter to work.


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

I've done a reset, but I will try again, and I will try a system test..

thanks


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

ok, system test hangs at testing tuner 1, probably cause I'm not aligned yet, system reset can't find a signal, probably cause I'm not aligned yet, and you are saying that the meters won't work until either one of those steps is complete..

so, how do you align using the meters if they won't work until you have a signal!!


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Nosey said:


> ok, system test hangs at testing tuner 1, probably cause I'm not aligned yet, system reset can't find a signal, probably cause I'm not aligned yet, and you are saying that the meters won't work until either one of those steps is complete..!!


That is correct.



Nosey said:


> so, how do you align using the meters if they won't work until you have a signal!!


Good question, that's what I'm wondering. Unless you have a hand held meter, like you do, I think people are SOL, or will have a lot of guess and check.


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## Raybz (Jan 1, 2006)

Do you have a NON r15 receiver?
When I have changed dishes
I took my old receiver out and did the alignment with THAT, then swapped the R15 back in. all went fine that way


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## sheridan1952 (Mar 16, 2006)

I also aligned my new dish with my existing receiver until the R15 arrived. However, I should point out that when the installer hooked up the R15, all he did was turn it on and go to the antenna menu. The numbers came right up.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

sheridan1952 said:


> I also aligned my new dish with my existing receiver until the R15 arrived. However, I should point out that when the installer hooked up the R15, all he did was turn it on and go to the antenna menu. The numbers came right up.


That only will work if the signal is there. If it doesn't find a signal when you boot up it won't look for it again unless you reset or do a system test. Which makes the meters unless unless you where close in the first place.


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

I think when I had a problem a few weeks ago when a storm took out my alignment (turned out one problem I've been having was a loose screw (the dish not me) and the wind was strong enough to move the dish a hair)..

but, I think I reset and had no signal and was able to align with the meters..

I just got called to go into work (I worked 11p-830am last night and just woke up at 4p with a phone call), 4-5 hours of OT, who can turn it down, but when I get home tonight I might play with it again, or tomorrow morning...

will let you know what I find out..


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## sheridan1952 (Mar 16, 2006)

Okay, thanks for that correction.



cabanaboy1977 said:


> That only will work if the signal is there. If it doesn't find a signal when you boot up it won't look for it again unless you reset or do a system test. Which makes the meters unless unless you where close in the first place.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I emailed Cabanaboy1977 with my test findings, but am just now getting on the forum to post them.

As he indicated, with the R15, you basically can't use it to install/align a dish unless you are lucky enough to get the dish very close to proper alignment to start with.

As soon as the R15 starts up (after a reset or power cycle) and gets to the point of either "acquiring satellite signal" or "searching for satellite", it decides at that moment whether or not there is a signal present on each tuner. If it does not find a signal, it locks out that tuner and will not even check for a signal on it after that until you do a reset.

We have previously posted that you can press the Exit button when you get one of those messages ("acquiring" or "searching"), and then get to the menus in the R15 (which is true). Thus, you could go to MyVOD and watch previously recorded shows. But, even if you go into satellite setup or system test, the R15 won't show any signal unless it detected it during the initial startup.

Specifically, I connected an R15-500 (10B8 software) to a dish. I mis-aligned the dish to the point I was getting no signal. I reset the R15 and Exited as soon as I got a "acquiring" message. I then went into satellite setup and displayed the signal strength meters and moved the dish back into perfect alignment. Nothing was indicated. I did a system test, and both tuners failed. I reset the R15 and it came up with both tuners working, and signal meters showing good signal.

I repeated the test several times, with every possible variation I could think of, and never found a way to use the R15 to align a dish unless there was a good signal to start with.

I also checked moving from one tuner to two, and from two tuners to one. Again, it took a reset (a system test did not work) in order for the R15 to correctly identify which tuner(s) were connected to a properly aligned dish.

Earl - perhaps you could make sure your contact is aware of this post. Not being able to use the R15 to set up a dish is, in my mind, a pretty serious shortcoming.

Carl


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

carl6 said:


> Earl - perhaps you could make sure your contact is aware of this post. Not being able to use the R15 to set up a dish is, in my mind, a pretty serious shortcoming.
> 
> Carl


I agree, especially if it's the only box you're going to be using. Worst case make the Sat1 and Sat2 something the user says is on or off if you can't make the auto detect work for this. Or have a setup portion where it activates both tuners regardless of if it thinks anything is connected or not.


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## sheridan1952 (Mar 16, 2006)

I also agree, but some installers and especially D*, would argue that if it was properly installed by a tech like they want you to do, the tech would use his Birddog and prealign the dish before ever setting up the box.

Not that I subscribe to such a position. I am all in favor of DIY.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

DIY is fine, but you get no free service calls if you dont get it right the 1st time...I guarendamntee you there are posters here that tried it themselves, got it hosed up, and expected D* to come fix it for free...which should not happen no matter how much they jump up and down and threaten to cancel....Let them put it in so you have a fallback position should anything go wrong....

A good example....The 110/119 LNB went out on my AT9 16 days after install, if I would have put it in myself, I wouldnt have had recourse, how would they know I didnt drop it or damage it during the self install?


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## sheridan1952 (Mar 16, 2006)

I don't care about "free service calls" Maybe I'm one of the rare ones, but if I do it myself, screw up and have to call someone out, I expect to pay. 

I know there are those who have no business doing themselves. That doesn't stop them from thinking they can and getting their equipment from Ebay or whereever and trying. And then, as you say, expect someone to bail their ass out for free. I completely understand your position on those.

That does not excuse the attitude I continually get from some here who look down their noses at me because I do it myself. I installed my own system in '98 AND upgraded it last month successfully. You don't know me or what my experience is.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

sheridan1952 said:


> I also agree, but some installers and especially D*, would argue that if it was properly installed by a tech like they want you to do, the tech would use his Birddog and prealign the dish before ever setting up the box.


How about someone in an RV that moves periodically? That is actually where I first saw the question about getting to the signal strength meter during startup, from an RV'r who couldn't figure out how to use an R15 to set up his dish. Turns out the answer is, "he can't".

Carl


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

carl6 said:


> How about someone in an RV that moves periodically? That is actually where I first saw the question about getting to the signal strength meter during startup, from an RV'r who couldn't figure out how to use an R15 to set up his dish. Turns out the answer is, "he can't".
> 
> Carl


that is where I am at, I live in an RV and plan on taking trips with it, I got rid of my cable/dvr and got a sat/dvr so that when I go on trips I still have my tv...

and living by myself, I only need 1 receiver

there has got to be a simple solution to this other then buying another receiver just to align when I go on trips.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

For now, the best solution is to get a separate satellite signal/alignment meter. Actually, that makes doing a dish install alignment a whole lot easier, and if you are going to be doing so on a regular basis, is worth the investment. They range in cost from around $30 to several hundred dollars depending on features. The low end meter will work just fine for your needs.

Carl


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

I have a low end one, it has a tone when you hit a sat and a meter that jumps from 0 to 10, doesn't show the strength, just 0 if nothing and 10 if you have a sat..

like right now, I can get a tone, actually I have played with it and in movement from left to right there are 2 sat's that are within 6 inches of movement..

problem is, I get a tone and I reset the receiver and I don't have a signal...

you would think that if I have the correct sat and am getting a tone I would have a signal on the receiver..

I'm getting ready to go out and play with it right now and see what I can get, now that I know the R15's meter's won't work until it is actually has a signal, I've been watching the meters and listening for the tone on the finder to align..


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

Carl,
during your test, did you leave the screen on the searching for sat sig then go out and align and come back and have a signal??

If that works then I can still fine tune the alignment after I get a tone on the meter without have to align/reboot/align/reboot etc...

while I wait on your response I'm going to give it a try real quick, I have to leave in 20 minutes but if I can get a signal using that method then I can record my 2 shows tonight while I am gone, ncis and the unit..

thanks


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Actually, I set the R15, the TV, and the dish all in one place so had direct access to all 3 as I did the test.

I tried many variations of what screen(s) were used. But yes to your specific question.

I mis-aligned the dish. I did a reset on the R15. When the "searching for satellite" message appeared I pressed the Exit button on the remote which exited that screen to nothing. I pressed Menu on the remote and got the menu. I selected the Satellite > View signal and set up the signal strength meters. I left the meters on the screen and moved the dish back into alignment. Nothing. No signal reading of any type. I then tried several different things. I tried doing a system test, and both tuners failed. I tried going through a complete satellite dish setup, and failed. I went into the special menu (where you can implement stacking and other stuff) and selected a "special" installation. No help there. I simply pressed the red reset button, and presto, it came back up with both tuners working.

I used an Accutrac Pro meter (connected to a different port on the dish, not in-line with the receiver) to verify alignment, as well as having marked the mast and dish so I knew where correct alignment point was. There is no doubt that I had a good signal.

Now, if you use a separate meter to get some type (any type) of signal with the dish, then reset your R15, you should be okay. When it starts up, instead of getting a "searching for satellite" message you should get an "acquiring satellite information" message. Let the R15 boot all the way up, then you can use the signal strength meters to peak the alignment.

If you get a "searching for satellite" message instead of an "acquring satellite information" message, you are not aimed at the correct satellite. Using your separate meter, find another signal then reset the R15 again.

It does not take a lot of movement of the dish to go in and out of signal. In my case, a horizontal movement of less than one inch at the end of the LNB arm would take me from peak signal to no signal. Six inches as you noted, would easily move you from one satellite to another.

Carl


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

ok, 2 questions..

1. maybe I didn't ask correctly about the initial screen... if it says searching for sat, as I fine tune the dish, after I have aquired a tone with the eternal meter, will it acquire the sat if I find it or will it timeout and not look for anything...

2. if I get any type of tone with the meter then I should get some type of signal on the receiver correct?? even if it is a low signal, any tone would mean there is atleast a signal.. that is as long as I am on the correct sat

this is crazy, when I first set it up 3 months ago, I eyeballed and got a 90% signal, now I eyeball, use a meter, etc and can't get anything!!


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

1. Don't know, did not actually try that (but I should have). Next time I get a chance, I'll try it.

2. If you are on the correct satellite, then yes, you should be able to reset the R15 and then get a signal (but you need to do the reset or power up from unplugged). If you are not on the correct satellite, the R15 will still not see the correct signal, and will not get past the original searching for satellite. In that case, swing the dish until you get another tone and try again. Etc.

Carl


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

OK I now have my sat back!!!!!! 

This is gonna be kinda long, but only way to explain the problem and what we did... 

Sorry


My dad came over this morning (after I worked 11p-9a) and we spent from 1030 until 1130 with his receiver trying to get my dish aligned, since the old brackets were causing the mount to be loose, I got 2 new brackets and re-did my mount, making sure it was level, etc...

after an hour with his receiver (an old basic model, we got NOTHING!!!

He left for an appointment, on his way back at 130 he picked up his tripod and his dish for his rv, same recveiver, he uses it at home and on the road..

we got a signal with his tripod and dish, about 6 feet away from my setup, but it was on cement ground..

we moved his dish to my mount and got a signal, we made markings and put my dish up... NOTHING...

we switched lnb's (I have an old single and my current double) on his dish on my mount lnb's worked....

put mine back, nothing...

we couldn't figure out the differance between the two dishs....

finally he said he would leave his dish and try to figure out what the deal was later..

then around 3 (1 1/2 hours into this 2nd session, 2 1/2 hours total time today), I put my dish on his tripod, got a signal, moved the tripod directly infront of my mount, got a signal...

ok, now we know my dish is fine...

put it to my mount, nothing... put his back, got a signal...

looked at his for a minute, then put mine back..

ok, ready for this...

the bracket that holds the arm to the dish, his has a nice angle in it, mine, a small angle...

also his dish sat lower on the pole then mine would go, about an inch...

now remember, my mount is on the jack of my trailer in the front..

the angle was just enough to not allow me to get the correct azth needed to get the signal...

strange, his dish was 43 and mine was 39... 

but, it's now working....

now if direct can add to their list of fixes, let the meters work for a setup to help find the sat!!!!

thanks guys for all the help... it's been an interesting learning experience... but one's troubles may help anothers with the different things and ideas people came up with....


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Glad you got it working. When I did my last install I had a TON of problems getting the alignment at my house. Clear view and all. Took my 3x what it had usually taken for me to get it setup. Sometimes it's just frustrating.



Nosey said:


> OK I now have my sat back!!!!!!
> 
> This is gonna be kinda long, but only way to explain the problem and what we did...
> 
> ...


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Glad you figured it out Nosey. It's always the little things that get you.


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

what gets me is my 1st install of it some 2-3 months ago I eyeballed and got in the 90's on the first shot..

after 1 bad storm and got it back, in the mid 40's, kept getting worse, ended up being loose mount and me tired when trying to get it aligned..

but, not having the meter's when I thought I did (since it worked all the other times, by chance).. if I had known that, I would not have spent an avg of 2 hours on 5 different days (and 2 times for about an hour at 1-2 am)... I would have immediatly gotten my dad, who is retired navy captain and doesn't have much to do with his free time, to come over with his receiver..

those meters need to be turned on at all times like the other receivers, since it shows both tuners, it shouldn't matter if one or the other are not connected, just need to have them working..


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Nosey said:


> those meters need to be turned on at all times like the other receivers, since it shows both tuners, it shouldn't matter if one or the other are not connected, just need to have them working..


Agreed, they where on all the time on my UTV. During a storm the history would show changing tuners, new tuners 0, new tuners 1, new tuners 2 and so on. I just shutter with this fact, what if they active them all the time and it makes the unit slower and lockup up more?


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

SO the elevation adjustment had come loose if I read your post correctly? No wonder it wasnt working correctly...

Thats part and parcel with making sure the mount is plumb and level.....


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

And to add to the testing I have done, I did try the technique Nosey asked about with the R15. Did not work.

Set everything back up, but this time I put the signal meter between the receiver and the dish so I could see what the receiver was doing.

Mis-aligned the dish.

Reset the R15.

When I finally got to the "acquiring satellite info" screen, I immediately brought the dish back into alignment. Nothing - the R15 just sat there and never acquired anything.

Reset the R15 (with the dish in alignment). Came back up and worked properly. No problems.

Now, what I noticed with the meter in the line was that when you reset the R15, very early in the start up process it appears to be going out and looking at the dish. The meter shows the R15 is toggling between 13V and 18V (odd and even polarity) several times early on. I suspect it is also looking for a valid signal at that time.

When you finally get to the "acquiring" screen, if the R15 did not see a valid signal previously, it stays on 13V (odd polarity), and never proceeds to acquire data. If the R15 did see a valid signal previously, it goes to 18V and stays there throughout the acquiring process.

So, if it does not detect a signal during the early steps of the reset process, it appears to lock out the tuner and never again tries to look for a signal until you do another reset.

There does not appear to be any possible way to use the R15 to align a dish unless it is already very close to being perfectly aligned to start with (close enough to receive a usable signal).

Carl


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> SO the elevation adjustment had come loose if I read your post correctly? No wonder it wasnt working correctly...
> 
> Thats part and parcel with making sure the mount is plumb and level.....


actually, the initial problem was the direction (nsew) is what was loose, when we remounted the pole we made sure it was plum..

where the problem was today was that my dish the bracket that holds the arm on is cut differently, when we remounted the pole we used my dads dish to get a signal.


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## Nosey (Mar 12, 2006)

carl6 said:


> When you finally get to the "acquiring" screen, if the R15 did not see a valid signal previously, it stays on 13V (odd polarity), and never proceeds to acquire data. If the R15 did see a valid signal previously, it goes to 18V and stays there throughout the acquiring process.
> 
> So, if it does not detect a signal during the early steps of the reset process, it appears to lock out the tuner and never again tries to look for a signal until you do another reset.
> 
> ...


how about this, go to the meter screen and select an odd transponder, since the receiver is switching to 13V then maybe an odd transponder will work on the meter..

Thanks Carl for doing all these tests, it's not only helping me but we are learning some new things that others will probably need one day (hopefully not though)..


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Nosey said:


> how about this, go to the meter screen and select an odd transponder, since the receiver is switching to 13V then maybe an odd transponder will work on the meter..
> 
> Thanks Carl for doing all these tests, it's not only helping me but we are learning some new things that others will probably need one day (hopefully not though)..


No, that doesn't work. Once the R15 discovers it doesn't have a signal, it just simply won't even look for one. You get zero's on all transponders on all satellites, even if you subsequently align to a good signal (until you do a reset, then it starts over and checks again).

Cabanaboy and I are working on the FAQ, and I did these tests to help us clarify some items we had in the FAQ to make sure we were telling it right. Glad that we can help out.

Carl


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