# DVR-921 upgradeable to MPEG-4 ???



## dweber (Jan 11, 2005)

I called the Charlie Chat tonight (January 10th) and asked what DISH would do for existing DVR-921 owners when they change from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. The person taking my call said that he did not know but he asked me to hold while he got the answer. Nine minutes later, he came back on and told me he was transferring me to someone who had the answer. He also told me that they were going to add more HD and transition from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 when the new satellites become operational this summer. The next person that I talked to said that DISH will upgrade the DVR-921 from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 by spooling new software. I asked if the conversion from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 could be done with just a software update since I thought that the MPEG decoder was hardware based. He said that the engineers had determined that the DVR-921 could be upgraded to MPEG-4 by new software. I then asked him if this was also true for 811 receiver. He said that he was not sure if the 811 could be upgraded to MPEG-4. My obvious question is "Do you think that the DVR-921 can be upgraded to MPEG-4 by new software?"


----------



## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

dweber said:


> I called the Charlie Chat tonight (January 10th) and asked what DISH would do for existing DVR-921 owners when they change from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. The person taking my call said that he did not know but he asked me to hold while he got the answer. Nine minutes later, he came back on and told me he was transferring me to someone who had the answer. He also told me that they were going to add more HD and transition from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 when the new satellites become ...
> "Do you think that the DVR-921 can be upgraded to MPEG-4 by new software?"


I really doubt it.


----------



## iceshark (May 7, 2004)

why not? The Voom motorlola box can and will be upgraded shortly by software to mpeg 4 (if they make ie!)


----------



## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

The VOOM upgrade is not software. It is a hardware cartridge which plugs into the VOOM Box via the side access panel. (Although it also needs software to make it work as well)


----------



## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

iceshark said:


> why not? The Voom motorlola box can and will be upgraded shortly by software to mpeg 4 (if they make ie!)


As Scott says the Voom upgrade is hardware and software.

I am of the opinion that it would be easy for the 921 to be upgraded similarly, but will they do it? But just software would not be likely. At times the 921 appears to be struggling to keep up with everthing as it is.


----------



## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

I'm not sure it's really that easy.

Let's say the mpeg4 stream is spooled directly to the hard drive. OK, no problem there.

A PCI card is added with an MPEG4 decoder. The compressed data can be sent to the card over PCI. But what happens to the data after it's decoded? I don't think PCI is fast enough to also spool uncompressed data back over PCI to the scaler.

The data would have to stay on the card... uncompressed, sent to a scaler, then sent to outputs also on the card. So, this card would also have to contain DVI, Component, S-Video, & RF/Coax ports.

That seems like a lot for the card. Is a single integrated circuit available which can do the decompression and the scaling? That would help. Otherwise this card is going to have to contain 2 complex chips.


----------



## iceshark (May 7, 2004)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> The VOOM upgrade is not software. It is a hardware cartridge which plugs into the VOOM Box via the side access panel. (Although it also needs software to make it work as well)


Thank you Scott, I do remember reading that months ago.
I AM SO EXCITED about the voom DVR! cant wait


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

David_Levin said:


> I'm not sure it's really that easy.
> 
> Let's say the mpeg4 stream is spooled directly to the hard drive. OK, no problem there.
> <skip> .


David, you should take in account that BCM7021 chip what does 3DES encoding/decoding stream to/from disk, to protect us from MPAA legal actions .


----------



## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

the 7021 does just encoding/decoding or other functions too?

Isn't this all compressed data? Seems like moving compressed data should be ok. Actually, the mpeg4 stream will be easier to shuttle around since is more highly compressed (less hard drive load).

It's just that once the new mpeg4 chip uncompresses the data, there is probably no path back to the motherboard that can handle the huge data stream. All post processing (scaler), and I/O would have to be part of the card.

Throw in the Engineering and software cost for a relatively small number of boxes and a swapout starts to look better. Perhaps they'll offer us a unlimited loaner (free lease).

Once they decide 921's need to be replaced, other major enhancments (NBR & Interractive) become too troublesome.


----------



## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I guess that this begs the question, what HDTV DVR with MPEG-4 Capability will Dish be releasing by the end of 2005 to support these new HD channels? It must already exist.


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

It does, Cyclone.


----------



## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

It does? It does what? Beg the question or exist? I can see your answer going both ways.

I have pondered this a bit since my last post. I'm guessing that the MPEG4 receiver will simply be a 942, with a MPEG-4 chipset installed. This way their Hardware changes are minimal and they just have to make a few changes to the software to support the changes. This also allows them to maintain a consistent software base along with the 322/522/942.

So they just replace the MPEG-2 decoder chip with a new MPEG4 (which will also support MPEG2 for current channels) and there it is.

That's my line of thinking anyway.


----------



## Seb (Jan 11, 2005)

MPEG4 is not actually very CPU intensive to decode, and the CPU inside the 921 should have plenty of umph to be able to decode MPEG4 in software only. ( Heck my measly Pentium II @ 300mhz can decode a HDTV MPEG4 stream ). It's the ENCODING that's extremely expensive. The question is can the Tuners receive a raw MPEG4 stream and will DISH actually go that route?


----------



## Jason Kragt (Dec 20, 2002)

Are you sure that MPEG4 is not all that much intensive to decode? My understanding is that MPEG2 decoding is currently done in hardware on the 921. Even with this decoding offloaded to hardware, my 921 seems bogged down at times. 

I would be very, very surprised if the 921 had sufficient unused CPU cycles to take over MPEG decoding AND perform all of its other functions. I doubt that Dish built all of this excess computing capability into the 921. Their track record is to use the cheapest CPU that they can get away with at the time.


----------



## Seb (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm pretty confident it can be done for at least 1 MPEG4 stream. I've worked on an embeded linux platform that does MPEG4 and divx decoding in software on a VIA VPSD processor, and we had plenty of cpu left.

The reason almost everyone uses MPEG2 cards is for realtime decoding and the fact that a MPEG2 hardware decoders are practically free these days. ( IE: 29$ dvd players ) Our CPU/Motherboard combo cost ~50$ and that was almost 2 years ago. If you want to experiment grab yourself a divx "sample", play it on your PC. and look at the CPU utilization.

Personally, I believe, the 921 feels slugish because of buffer overcommit in the disk IO subsystem. All the memory is used up for buffering the video streams, and when the UI or the rest of the software needs to make a disk access, it gets to wait.. thus the long pauses when saving "favorites", prefs, etc. This is typical with heavy IO applications on Linux if they are not written with that in mind. I would love to crack open my 921 to see what's actually going on., but I don't feel like voiding my warranty (YET)


----------



## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Isn't WM9 a variant of mpeg4? Microsoft requires a 2.5 to 3 gig Pentimum for wm9. I suppost that could be due to other overhead, but the 921 has other overhead too.

Cyclone: Got kinda quiet - was that Mark sneaking out?

I agree, that the mpeg4 box is likely a 942 with the decoder replaced. May not be as easy as you think. Are they pin compatible? Perhaps an mpeg4 decoder will require a wider data bus, or faster clock.

Given Dish's track record do you think the part swap will work in the first attempt?

I still just don't see any point releasing the 942 without mpeg4. Scott was told directly (at CES) that the 942 doesn't speak mpeg4. I sure hope Dish has a plan (but then I'm still waiting for Superdish to pick up 50 hd channels and my 921 to talk to DVHS).


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I'm still here from time to time... 

It does exist, Cyclone. (for that matter, it probably also begs the question, but that's another issue...) You don't really think they'd be talking MPEG4 this openly without having at least a couple of MPEG4 receivers in development, do you?

David - I agree. I'm pretty baffled that the 942 is going forward for release without MPEG4. I really hope that there is a low/no cost upgrade plan in place for 942 purchasers.


----------



## cdru (Dec 4, 2003)

Seb said:


> I'm pretty confident it can be done for at least 1 MPEG4 stream. I've worked on an embeded linux platform that does MPEG4 and divx decoding in software on a VIA VPSD processor, and we had plenty of cpu left.


MPEG4/Divx does not equal MPEG4 HD content. My computer has no problem decoding real time divx encoded movies. It is quite jerky decoding full screen 1080p HD video. Full screen HD MPEG4 video requires either a very fast general purpose processor, or a dedicated processor to decode MPEG4 video. The 921 has neither.


----------



## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I'm sure that it does exist. If they hope to have it ready by end of year/summer it had better be running in some hardware labs today. Not to mention the proof of concept prototypes for MPEG4. 

I think that people to think that the 921 can do MPEG-4 via software are mistaken. Sure any PC and do MPEG2 or perhaps even MPEG4 via software, but can they handle HDTV bandwidth? I don't think that the 921 even had enough horse power to do MPEG-2 via software, and that's what the MPEG2 chip is for.


----------



## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I'm always entertained by those who are so expertise they can talk the show but know deep down inside they can't walk the walk. It's always so easy for those who don't have to do it to just talk about how they would do it in a couple of hours work. If they could walk the walk they would just do it and stop bragging about how smart they are and making excuses about how a warranty or some other silly excuse is all that stops them from solving all the problems that the real code writers can't do.


----------



## Seb (Jan 11, 2005)

For the record, I never said it would be easy nor that it could be done overnight. I just said I believe it should be possible. If your willing to send me your 921 or 549$ I'll go ahead and crack it open :grin:


----------



## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Seb said:


> For the record, I never said it would be easy nor that it could be done overnight. I just said I believe it should be possible. If your willing to send me your 921 or 549$ I'll go ahead and crack it open :grin:


Actually its a piece of cake. The chips exist and could easily be put on a board to replace the ones now doing the MPEG2 decoding. Now will they do it, or ask you to upgrade to the new xxxx machine instead for only $xxxx.


----------



## RVRambler (Dec 5, 2004)

Seb said:


> MPEG4 is not actually very CPU intensive to decode, and the CPU inside the 921 should have plenty of umph to be able to decode MPEG4 in software only. ( Heck my measly Pentium II @ 300mhz can decode a HDTV MPEG4 stream ). It's the ENCODING that's extremely expensive. The question is can the Tuners receive a raw MPEG4 stream and will DISH actually go that route?


I beg to differ, have you done Mpeg-2 or Mpeg-4 on your PC?
On my old 1.7gig PC, mpeg-2 used about 4-6%, while Mpeg-4 used 26% or so, and yes different s/w player, but both should have been somewhat optomized. (PowerDvd - Mpeg2, DivX-Mpeg4).

I also played Mpeg-4 via WMP and it also used about 20-30% cpu, but may have been using the same decoder s/w, don't know.

On the other hand, a DSP is programmable, and Mpeg is decoded in 921 likely by a DSP, (my $50 Phillips/APex dvd player plays both and I suspect only has a single DSP/chip for decoding), so a s/w download 'could' update the 921 to play Mpeg-4.

Does anyone have some 'actual' knowledge on the chips used in the 921??

BUT FIRST LETS GET SOME OF THESE BUGS OUT OF L211 !!! PLEASE!!

The 921 has great potential but currently is a buggy _______!!


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

David_Levin said:


> It's just that once the new mpeg4 chip uncompresses the data, there is probably no path back to the motherboard that can handle the huge data stream. All post processing (scaler), and I/O would have to be part of the card.


The existing setup is handling the uncompressed MPEG2 data now and that shouldn't be significantly less "huge" than a decoded MPEG4 data stream. Any decoder capable of MPEG4 is almost certainly capable of MPEG2 and it should all look basically the same once it leaves the decoder. I'm thinking that this *could* be a rather simple chip replacement with maybe a flywire or two.

Chips are currently shipping in consumer HD DVD equipment that can decode MPEG2, MPEG4 and DivX HD. My JVC SD DVD player can also play MPEG4 and DivX Home Theatre material and it was only $99.


----------



## Seb (Jan 11, 2005)

To add some fuel: The 921 is "supposedly" powered by VIA C3 733Mhz processor. ( http://www.viaembedded.com/designwin/productDetail.jsp?categorys=12&company=78 ) I say supposedly because you can never be sure if that information is accurate. The C3 733 has about the same level of performance as a Pentium III at 733 MHZ ( it does have a slower FPU ) However, the chipset listed for the south/north bridges there are not capable of DVI nor HDTV output resolution, so they must be using another video chipset.

If that chipset the CN400, or an earlier S3 version of the CN400 then it has builtin MPEG2 AND MPEG4 acceleration. ( http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/chipsets/c-series/cn400/ ). In both cases these are "hardware" assist chips, in that they need software to do part of the actual work, but at the same time provide better compatibility with future specs.

Does anyone know what video chipset is actually IN the 921? ( I'm now very tempted to pop mine open. )


----------



## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"It's just that once the new mpeg4 chip uncompresses the data, there is probably no path back to the motherboard that can handle the huge data stream. All post processing (scaler), and I/O would have to be part of the card.

Throw in the Engineering and software cost for a relatively small number of boxes and a swapout starts to look better. Perhaps they'll offer us a unlimited loaner (free lease).
"_

David- this is pretty much the way E* explained it to me. You seem to have a similar grasp of what will need to be done, when cost is a consideration. There was a little more to their plan that involved how much one would need to pay to get the swap-out but that is strictly non-technical and not the scope of this thread. Basically, technically, the 921 could be upgraded with a special card plugin plus a minor software change to access it when mpeg4 signal is present. Economically, not a good business decision to do. 
At the end of the day, all 921 owners should consider their 921's a machine with incurable cancer. This is how I view it now. I plan to put my 921 in "Hospice" next month. I said I planned to go to CES and talk with E* for strictly personal motives. I wanted them to offer me something that would keep my business. They could not do that for the foreseeable future. In essence, E* will not be competitive with VOOM nor DirecTV for the next year when it comes to HDTV and DVR systems.

I will not pull the plug on DishNetwork but maybe, with some major changes to their programming linup, I can consider them as a 3rd program supplier in 2006/2007. BY their own time table, that is when we can consider them for having something equal to D* or V*. Of course, if V* goes down the drain, then that could be a significant change to move the time table forward.


----------



## jeslevine (Jul 21, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> _"It's just that once the new mpeg4 chip uncompresses the data, there is probably no path back to the motherboard that can handle the huge data stream. All post processing (scaler), and I/O would have to be part of the card.
> 
> Throw in the Engineering and software cost for a relatively small number of boxes and a swapout starts to look better. Perhaps they'll offer us a unlimited loaner (free lease).
> "_
> ...


I just had voom installed yesterday, and it is great. I could refuse their offer of free hardware and installation, and a 6 month commitment. Even if they go under, at least I will have enjoyed some great HD content that Charlie could never deliver.

I am keeping my basic dish service, but my HD programming is canceled, and I just listed my 921 on ebay

One thing I will say about the VOOM receivers, is they seem very solid. Outputs come out simultaneously from the 2 AV outs, 1 component out, 1 Svideo out, and one DVI out port, something they didn't do with the 6000 or 921. VOOM is using a well designed box in my view

It will be interesting to see how things develop


----------



## RVRambler (Dec 5, 2004)

jeslevine said:


> I just had voom installed yesterday, and it is great. I could refuse their offer of free hardware and installation, and a 6 month commitment. Even if they go under, at least I will have enjoyed some great HD content that Charlie could never deliver.
> 
> I am keeping my basic dish service, but my HD programming is canceled, and I just listed my 921 on ebay
> 
> ...


I am thinking of doing the same as you, can you tell who made the Voom h/w? Does it seem as buggy as Dish stuff (seems all the Dish receivers have some glitches, my 311 needed a smart card reset occasionally, you know the many 921 problems).

Have Fun!!


----------



## tahoerob (Mar 22, 2003)

Seb said:


> I'm pretty confident it can be done for at least 1 MPEG4 stream. I've worked on an embeded linux platform that does MPEG4 and divx decoding in software on a VIA VPSD processor, and we had plenty of cpu left.
> 
> The reason almost everyone uses MPEG2 cards is for realtime decoding and the fact that a MPEG2 hardware decoders are practically free these days. ( IE: 29$ dvd players ) Our CPU/Motherboard combo cost ~50$ and that was almost 2 years ago. If you want to experiment grab yourself a divx "sample", play it on your PC. and look at the CPU utilization.
> 
> Personally, I believe, the 921 feels slugish because of buffer overcommit in the disk IO subsystem. All the memory is used up for buffering the video streams, and when the UI or the rest of the software needs to make a disk access, it gets to wait.. thus the long pauses when saving "favorites", prefs, etc. This is typical with heavy IO applications on Linux if they are not written with that in mind. I would love to crack open my 921 to see what's actually going on., but I don't feel like voiding my warranty (YET)


I cracked mine open last year. Check the pics here:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=4057&highlight=inside+921


----------



## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Seb said:


> To add some fuel: The 921 is "supposedly" powered by VIA C3 733Mhz processor. ( http://www.viaembedded.com/designwin/productDetail.jsp?categorys=12&company=78 ) I say supposedly because you can never ...


According to Broadcom these broadcom chips are used. They actually do most of the 921 work. The CPU mostly controls the Hard drive and overall control functions.

"The DishPVR 921 will include the Broadcom® BCM7021 HDTV solution, which provides audio, video, graphics and personal video recording (PVR) support, the BCM4500 advanced modulation receiver, the BCM3440 CMOS satellite TV tuner, the BCM7501 digital visual interface (DVI) transmitter, and the BCM3510 HDTV Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC)-compliant terrestrial broadcast receiver"

Full details at 
http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=369318


----------



## jeslevine (Jul 21, 2002)

RVRambler said:


> I am thinking of doing the same as you, can you tell who made the Voom h/w? Does it seem as buggy as Dish stuff (seems all the Dish receivers have some glitches, my 311 needed a smart card reset occasionally, you know the many 921 problems).
> 
> Have Fun!!


Motorolla makes the hardware, and it feels very solid.

Keep in mind I have only had it for two days, and so far it has been very favorable

The only thing that takes a little time getting used to is the remote control, and the on screen guide

I really like that all the outputs are live on the receiver

The reason why I jumped at this is because of the free hardware and installation. I used a local dealer, and the installer was right there when they said they would be.

I have heard about problems where sometimes the installers aren't there on time when they said they would be, and that appears to be mostly when you go directly through Voom, and whoever they subcontract to are not always punctual

They also include an over the air antenna, and boy is there a lot of free to air HD broadcast in my area. I am in Northern California

Anyway, that's my experience so far


----------



## Orcatek (May 1, 2003)

I saw Voom at CES and they were showing their DVR media center solution. Once they have that - it will be an easy jump if E* doesn't have some real solution for the future.


----------



## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

You can expect to have to reboot the VOOM receiver about once per month, especially, if you begin to notice a sluggishnish to the channel changing. Just reboot and it works fiine again. Other than that the User Interface is a bit awkward but the PQ and sound is great. Also, the receiver is so sensitive, I get all my locals with no antenna connected. The real selling point of VOOM is not the equipment, but rather the HDTV variety for the money. Who cares if you don't like 3-4 of the HD channels' genre, you have 35 others to choose from.  My Word of advice- Don't get your own money invested in their hardware. Lease it, pay as you go. But, VOOM is the only current dbs provider that is prepared to move ahead to mpeg4 - - this year!


----------



## jeslevine (Jul 21, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> You can expect to have to reboot the VOOM receiver about once per month, especially, if you begin to notice a sluggishnish to the channel changing. Just reboot and it works fiine again. Other than that the User Interface is a bit awkward but the PQ and sound is great. Also, the receiver is so sensitive, I get all my locals with no antenna connected. The real selling point of VOOM is not the equipment, but rather the HDTV variety for the money. Who cares if you don't like 3-4 of the HD channels' genre, you have 35 others to choose from.  My Word of advice- Don't get your own money invested in their hardware. Lease it, pay as you go. But, VOOM is the only current dbs provider that is prepared to move ahead to mpeg4 - - this year!


they give you the hardware and installation for free, so you don't have to lease it. The other problem I see is that unless they can get more subscribers or are bought out, they are going to have a tough time making it. But until then I am enjoying HD content


----------

