# Why no name-based recording on Dish DVRs?



## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

I know this has been bandied about before... most say "Tivo has a patent on it", but is that really the case? Has anyone ever received anything from the Dish tech-heads on this subject?

Name-based recording is only as good as the data in the guide and _my suspicion_ is that Dish doesn't do a good enough job of updating guide data frequently, and as a result users would grumble and complain to E* that the guide didn't get updated when a show got missed.

Any thoughts?


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

I don't see how Tivo has a patent on name-based recording as my Ultimatetv by Microsoft PVR's have it, as does Replay TV. Both are definitely not Tivo products.


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## Gunnyman (Jul 25, 2003)

prorbably because TIMERS were easier to program.
The software is the same as the non DVR based receivers with timers.

They would have to start CHARGING for the service if they offered any more features.
Oh wait......


Nevermind


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Maybe Name based software requires more to keep up with money wise? Recently Charlie said that dvr cost were rising so they had to charge a fee. :nono2: 

No seriously though , I don't know why Charlie won't do name based recording other than he is to stubborn to admit that it is better software than Dish's . If Charlie would have bought Replay when he had a chance or if he would even think about buying Tivo or a part of it he could license the software and have a superior product line. 

The original dishplayer had name based and I don't see why Dish couldn't do it on the new dvrs. I even thought Charlie might buy a piece of Tivo or the whole company since he passed on Replay . He could even use the dancing Dish instead of the Tivo man in his dvr guides, if he didn't want to do true Tivo. As long as it had name based features and season passes it wouldn't matter to me if it was powered by Tivo. :grin:


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> The original dishplayer had name based <snip>


Ummm... what was the model number of the 'original dishplayer' you are speaking of? I have a Dishplayer 7200 (brother-of-the-7100, which is the 'original' as far as I know... the 7200s were software identical) and it has always been timer based (well, at least that's how it has always acted with me).


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

He's Cool! (Your avatar..... You know "Life's Been good to me so far........... Nevermind)

The 7100 was the original Dishplayer. I don't think the Dishplayer has name based recordings anymore as it only records shows that are on at the same time as the timer you set. Then again, I may be wrong as they are secndary receivers for me know and get lighter use.....


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I remember having name based timers , looking for the show by name and it recording them that way. I even remember there being conflicts when they're were older reruns of the same show on at the same time. This might have been what microsoft contributed to the software and might be why Dish doesn't do it anymore. I don't remember it having much harddrive so it wasn't that much good to me as oppossed to my 721 now. 

Maybe someone out there with more memory of the original software can comment on the dishplayers past and present condition.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I was told E would have to license and pay $$ for the name based stuff. I think it would be worth it, but untill charlie looses a LOT of subs its not going to happen.


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## cicijay (Jan 6, 2003)

I know this thread is just bait but here it goes

Why no name-based recording....?

Probably because most customers could care less. I have read enough posts regarding this Super Feature that TIVO had that E* DVR's didn't and I almost bought into it until I thought about it.

If I search on my 501 I can search for the program by name and then select it to record. I have absolutely no need to record based upon "name based recording" and I personally do not know of anyone that would desire such a feature other than someone recording soap operas and even then it would be on the same time every day. Why record Trading Spaces at 8:00 and then the same exact show again at 11:00 just because it has the same name? You can keep your name based recording.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

What happens when Trading Spaces moves to another time slot?


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## Karl Foster (Mar 23, 2002)

cicijay said:


> I know this thread is just bait but here it goes
> 
> Why no name-based recording....?
> 
> ...


The Tivo knows that it has recorded a show and will not record a show with the exact same description for about a month, unless you manually tell it to do so.

All I know is that when our local stations messed around with all the daytime programming, my UTV's picked them up and recorded them with no intervention on my part. Hell, I didn't even know they had changed times until I noticed the times the shows had recorded in the descriptions.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

karl_f said:


> All I know is that when our local stations messed around with all the daytime programming, my UTV's picked them up and recorded them with no intervention on my part. Hell, I didn't even know they had changed times until I noticed the times the shows had recorded in the descriptions.


Thats a very good point. My wife watches a show called Port Charles or something like that. Its going off the air and our local ABC moved it to 1 am from 12:30pm or something close to that. As with you, we only noticed it because of the recorded time.


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## gwynnebaer (Jan 20, 2003)

I hope it's fair to say that unless you've used all the features of name-based recording *as implemented on a Tivo* then you might not know what you're missing.

I think of it in terms of all the features. You get to record shows by name (whether they move slots, change slot size, add an extra show), and *then* you get the other features as well:

1. Can recognize and ignore re-runs
2. Can recognize and ignore duplicate airings

In order to match Tivo's features, you would really need to capture these two options as well.

Since all of these features boil down to a requirement for excellent guide data, perhaps E* should just try and get really accurate data. This seems unlikely given that the networks are prone to make changes for their own reasons.


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

gwynnebaer said:


> I hope it's fair to say that unless you've used all the features of name-based recording *as implemented on a Tivo* then you might not know what you're missing.


OK, I did some poking around in the newsgroups... people call the Dishplayer's method "limited name-based recording". A bit of it is mentioned here.

I guess it has been there all along and I did not realize it. It's certainly not as feature-filled as the Tivo style.


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## sorahl (Oct 24, 2002)

Have I just missed this or do we really know what features are going to be available with the new dvr's ( i like pvr better  ) that are going to have the $4.99 charge associated with them?


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## Gunnyman (Jul 25, 2003)

Here is where nmaed based recodings really shines:

I have a season pass for Queer Eye for the Straight guy.
Now lets say I have something else I want to record at the same time.

Without name based recoding I would have to SEARCH for that episode of queer eye again and set up another recording.
With Tivo, it searches the guide and goes ok I will recod this episode when it comes on again at 2 AM...
All I had to do was make a season pass for the show and it automatically gets the episodes I want.
This is awesome for cable channels that air the same show throughout the day or week.

And with two tuners I don't have any conflicts at all.
I have roughly 30 season passes and the conflict resolution is for the most part, seamless.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

sorahl said:


> i like pvr better


Didn't TiVo have a trademark on that? I thought I read that is why Dish and others went to DVR. I wish I could remember where I saw that... :sure:


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## gwynnebaer (Jan 20, 2003)

James_F said:


> Didn't TiVo have a trademark on that? I thought I read that is why Dish and others went to DVR. I wish I could remember where I saw that... :sure:


Check here US Trademark Search

I looked up "PVR" and "DVR" but there were many variations. I notice that Dish owns several trademarks with these words in them, but not the bare words themselves.


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## KenIdaho (Dec 4, 2002)

While not having a Tivo I do still have two dishplayers (7200) and a 508. The dishplayer dose have name based recordings in fact it did not have time based recordings until it had been out a year or two. It doesn’t have a season pass feature though. 

If I tell the dishplayer to record CIS which is on Wednesday at 8:00 pm every week it will record it if it is on. If it is not on they have special it will not record what takes its place as long as the guide has the correct listing. On my 508 it will record the 8:00 time slot on Wednesday no matter what is on. Is the 7200 smart enough to find that CIS moved to Thursday? No. will it record re runs yes. While not up to Tivo standards it is a better timing system then the 508. Considering the original thought that Tivo might have a paten on it they can’t have a valid one the dishplayer did it first so even if there is a paten Charlie could beat them in court.


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

gwynnebaer said:


> Check here US Trademark Search
> 
> I looked up "PVR" and "DVR" but there were many variations. I notice that Dish owns several trademarks with these words in them, but not the bare words themselves.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=17158


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## ericha (Jan 21, 2003)

Originally Posted by karl_f:
"I don't see how Tivo has a patent on name-based recording as my Ultimatetv by Microsoft PVR's have it, as does Replay TV. Both are definitely not Tivo products."

Just because several companies have the same feature doesn't mean it's patented. This can happen in many scenarios, including:

-One company is licensing the feature from another

-One company is infringing on another's patent, and hasn't been sued yet (or has been sued, but the legal process isn't finished yet).

-One company is infringing on another's patent, but probably won't get sued, because they own a patent that the other company is infringing on as well. This is a very common situation, where patents aren't used to have a unique feature, or make money, but rather are used to defend against other patents.


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

KenIdaho said:


> While not having a Tivo I do still have two dishplayers (7200) and a 508. The dishplayer dose have name based recordings in fact it did not have time based recordings _until it had been out a year or two_. It doesn't have a season pass feature though.


I think what you mean is that it did not have manual timers until a later software version. Time-based record is something different altogether.


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## DTV (Aug 13, 2003)

cicijay said:


> I know this thread is just bait but here it goes
> 
> Why no name-based recording....?
> 
> ...


Too bad you don't have a clue. The use of the term "name based" is misleading. Yes TiVo records based on the show's name but it is much more intelligent than that. TiVo uses an episode number and other info in the show's info as the basis of its recordings. Sure you can go into the search on your 501 and find Friends at 8PM and record it. Will your 501 record only new episodes of Friends? Will it record all of Friends when it runs 45 minutes instead of 30? Will it record Friends when it changes timeslots?

If you had actually used TiVo then you would know that TiVo will not record the same episode of Trading Spaces at 11:00 if it already recorded that episode at 8:00. TiVo tracks its recordings and will not record the same episode for 28 days unless you specifically tell it to.

But by all means keep your digital VCR and monitor the TV schedules every week to make sure your timers are set correctly.


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## buzzdalf (Jan 27, 2003)

I finally got rid of my DISHPlayer's (both 7100 & 7200's) in May of this year after having at least one for the past 3 years and can confirm the DP always was, from the day they activated the PVR features, NAME BASED RECORDING.
They did in fact implement manual timers mid way through that 3 year beta test that would permit TIME BASED RECORDING. Before that point, it only did name based recording.
I have since switched to 508's which are time based and it's starting to suck.
I'me getting ready to switch the D* and get DirecTivo to get my NAME based recording back.


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## larrydj (Aug 10, 2002)

Though I'd really like the name based recordings ala TIVO, I'd settle for what I used to have in the DP. I now have th e 721, and I find it difficult to even review what I have set up to record. If a program changes time, I end up recording whatever was broadcast in its place, but I find it difficult to even find the faulty timer, or figure out what it was that I wanted in the 1st place. Does anyone have tips on how they manage the accuracy of a great number of timers with the 721, besides writing them all down and then comparing with the TV guide?


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

larrydj said:


> Though I'd really like the name based recordings ala TIVO, I'd settle for what I used to have in the DP. I now have th e 721, and I find it difficult to even review what I have set up to record. If a program changes time, I end up recording whatever was broadcast in its place, but I find it difficult to even find the faulty timer, or figure out what it was that I wanted in the 1st place. Does anyone have tips on how they manage the accuracy of a great number of timers with the 721, besides writing them all down and then comparing with the TV guide?


If I get the wrong show recorded, I look at the channel/time it was on and then scroll the timers to see which one it was. For general checking, most of our timers are for the regular networks so I just look at the guide and see where the red dots are to make sure they're correct.

Dennis


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

Well, many keep claiming a Tivo patent is why Dish doesn't do this, but there is no proof offered. I was viewing the mixed reviews by users of the Scientific Atalanta 8000 Explorer DVR that some cableco's are offering and found this reply:



> I've got my Explorer from Time Warner Carolina. Looks like they have newer software.
> 
> In Series Recording (their 'Season Pass', press 'List' then 'C' on remote to get there) you have multiple recording options:
> - record 'New Episodes' or 'All episodes'
> ...


_
*Hey, if SA can do it, why can't Dish???* _

I looked all through the SA pages on the 8000 and its spec sheets and don't see any mention of 'Tivo' - if SA were having to pay money to license it I'm sure the would be using the word 'Tivo' as it is currently in the marketplace as a popular synonym for video recording onto a hard drive.


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

From the same forum I mentioned above, talking about the SA 8000 box:



> N.C. user here also. I've had the Explorer for about a week now and I've been using the heck out of it. I love it even though I've had a few problems with it so far. Like just a minute ago I went to check on a show it recorded and for some reason *it only recorded the first minute of the show.*


They must have stolen some old code from the Dishplayer 7100/7200!!

It was said that the Dishplayer's 'one minute' problems were due to corruption of guide data (which no longer seems to be happening on my DP since they did the new guide from the 105 bird a few months ago), so it looks like someone else is having the same kind of problem.


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

I found this article Scientific-Atlanta wins issue in Gemstar case, so it makes me wonder if that has anything to do with name-based recording in the Scientific Atlanta 8000 DVRs that is seemingly 'not TiVo' software.


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## mike1002 (Oct 11, 2002)

I just watched a rerun of the Tech Chat (from 10/13) last night and I heard one of the hosts mention that Name-based recording was coming. Its not here now but it is coming.

Mike


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

I think he slipped that, at least that is the impression I got. maybe E* is introducing the dvr fees now to make them look like satellite gods later when they enable name-based recording....


Just a thought.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I wonder if they would have Name Based Recordings as mentioned on the last Tech Chat this October if they would only implement them on the DVR's that are collecting the VOD fee and that you would have to pay for it if you had the 501/508, 721 receivers since they are currently not charged a VOD fee.


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## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

re: implement of name-based recording only on VOD-fee boxes

That's what I'd do... then those that have been paying fees would feel
a whole lot better and those with older 501s or 508s would have incentive
to upgrade.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Well I will believe that when I see it. Although I suggested a while back that Dish should offer name based recording to justify the dvod fees and put them on a more even base with Directv.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2003)

Well I have Tivo Standalone, Dishplayers, and 501s...

Guess what they all miss getting shows, get part of shows etc.

The Tivo and DP & 501 are only as good as the guide data.

Sidenote: Tivo Season Passes, can missfire when the progam name changes for example.

On Sundays I have given up on watching CBS here in the NYC metro area. The sports run long and the Tivo gets either only the start of the 11PM news if any of it. DPs & 501s likewise. Any channel that has sports that runs longer than the time that was alloted to them will mess up any PVR/DVR/VCR timer.

The Dp is my best bet for that as I can set it to channel two and it'll record til the drive space runs out. a fairly long time with a 80Gig drive.  

I don't have any preference for the guide in any of these three types of PVR, The 501 is faster but I need to press Info to see details. Tivo's guide only shows current show for channels excpet the one highlighted. DP is slower in the guide but details show up for the show that is highlighted, but it strips off things that could matter to a family person such as language/nudity/violence etc.

My thoughts on the subject.
Cheers


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mike1002 said:


> I just watched a rerun of the Tech Chat (from 10/13) last night and I heard one of the hosts mention that Name-based recording was coming. Its not here now but it is coming.


My read on the Tech Chat was that it wasn't out of the question. I did not get the impression that it was on the drawing board.


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## Fat Tony (Oct 1, 2003)

James_F said:


> What happens when Trading Spaces moves to another time slot?


you can watch it one of the other 37 times it will air over the next 5 days.


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