# 480i not native in native mode?



## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Okay, I just got my HR20 today along with an install of the Slimline 5-LNB dish and that retires my HR10-250 and 3-LNB dish.

So far everything has been quite a bit better than I anticipated. I am not a fan of the R15's I have in house (2 of them) but this one seems MUCH improved. It's great to only have experience with x013e as the unit upgraded to that minutes after I got it connected.

The one thing I HATED about the TiVo was its non-support for native passthrough mode. I have a Pioneer Elite RPTV that has excellent stretch modes and supports all the different resolutions and want to keep it that way.

I turned on Native mode and it appeared to work. I find it funny that when it switches from 1080i to 720p that I see the channel initially in 1080i and then it hesitates and switches to 720p. That's distracting but livable. My Zenith HD box did this switch instantly.

Then I went to SD channels and ran into a surprise. At first black bars. Huh? So then I go digging and find I'm in some format called "pillar box". I cycle between them and find "Crop" and "Stretch". What I want is "NONE!!!"

Am I missing something here? Is there no way for native mode to send native 480i material? If so, that's a pretty useless feature. I'm hoping I'm just overlooking something for now.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

I think under the TV Type settings there is a tab for supported resolutions. When I redid mine on the new unit yesterday, 480i wasn't selected - go figure..... You can select any resolution your set supports and then Native will cycle to the proper supported format.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Do you have 480 i/p setected in the setup menu, under resolution?


Agrajag said:


> Okay, I just got my HR20 today along with an install of the Slimline 5-LNB dish and that retires my HR10-250 and 3-LNB dish.
> 
> So far everything has been quite a bit better than I anticipated. I am not a fan of the R15's I have in house (2 of them) but this one seems MUCH improved. It's great to only have experience with x013e as the unit upgraded to that minutes after I got it connected.
> 
> ...


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Then I went to SD channels and ran into a surprise. At first black bars. Huh? So then I go digging and find I'm in some format called "pillar box". I cycle between them and find "Crop" and "Stretch". What I want is "NONE!!!"
> 
> Am I missing something here? Is there no way for native mode to send native 480i material? If so, that's a pretty useless feature. I'm hoping I'm just overlooking something for now.


That is exactly what Native=ON does. I does need to be set up, though. If you can't find it, come back and we will help you.

However, I am not sure what you mean by "NONE". I assume your TV is 16:9, and as you know SD programming is 4:3. The black pillar bars make the UNCHANGED (as in native pass thru) 4:3 image fit your TV. So I think what you want, NONE=Pillar box. This will allow you to use the stretch modes on your TV.

Am I being clear?


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

I selected all four boxes during the initial setup and was pretty sure I saw all of them selected later during other hunting and poking but I'll go check it again.

Are you saying that you guys have 480i content that is not being formatted by the HR20? If so, that's good news and just means I have something off or a bug.

I think I get you cygnus. What I'm saying is that instead of Natural Wide (which is a Pioneer wide stretch mode) I was getting black bars on 4:3 material.

Perhaps this is just different than what I was used to and I'm a bit confused on what I'm running into. <grin>


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> Are you saying that you guys have 480i content that is not being formatted by the HR20? If so, that's good news and just means I have something off or a bug.


I don't use native mode, but I'll galdly take a look when I get home. Last time I tested, I thought I recalled the SD coming up as 480i.



Agrajag said:


> I think I get you cygnus. What I'm saying is that instead of Natural Wide


The other thing is, I think the HR20 handles all the conversion/stretching/cropping/pillar boxing. I don't recall an option to turn that off and pass through to the TV, so you probably had selected pillar boxes for SD content in the HR20 settings.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Say-what, if it works the way you just described above then do you see my argument? It's not a pass-through if the HR20 is grabbing it and processing it instead of letting the TV do it. 

50% (and for me more like 90%) of the benefit of native mode is for 480i to come through untouched.


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## Jazzy Jeff (Mar 11, 2007)

I find that using the native on with the stretch setting is the proper setting for my sony RPTV in order to use the tv's stretching. Really it just passes it through to the tv untouched, much like cable would do, or an OTA reception.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Jazzy Jeff said:


> I find that using the native on with the stretch setting is the proper setting for my sony RPTV in order to use the tv's stretching. Really it just passes it through to the tv untouched, much like cable would do, or an OTA reception.


I was just thinking that stretch was the pass through that would allow your TV to handle the stretching/cropping/pillar boxing....


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> I selected all four boxes during the initial setup and was pretty sure I saw all of them selected later during other hunting and poking but I'll go check it again.
> 
> Are you saying that you guys have 480i content that is not being formatted by the HR20? If so, that's good news and just means I have something off or a bug.
> 
> ...


yea, I think this is just a language issue. different names for different features on different products.

short version. if you want to use your TV's scaler, deinterlacer, stretch modes, etc..., use native=ON, all modes checked.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Every time I change either my TV or an HD receiver: I need to go through all of the settings as each combo will act differently. 
Right now, I need to have my TV set to "full" to have the SD 4:3 image not distorted.
HD seems to "be easy" but SD gets squished in pillarbox, without "full" set on the TV.
I had a Samsung & different TV. My "options" were [SD] that everybody either looked 50 lbs lighter, or 200 lbs heavier. D* got the box back.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Say-what, if it works the way you just described above then do you see my argument? It's not a pass-through if the HR20 is grabbing it and processing it instead of letting the TV do it.
> 
> 50% (and for me more like 90%) of the benefit of native mode is for 480i to come through untouched.


doesn't work the way he described.

If you want the HR20 to do all the scaling, deinterlacing, etc. use:

Native=off, only 720p or 1080i (depending on the res of your TV) selected.

pillar box = NO FORMATTING 4:3 ratio for SD programming - exactly as it is received off the satellite.

Many, many threads on this...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

This might give some help:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=81801


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Jazzy Jeff said:


> I find that using the native on with the stretch setting is the proper setting for my sony RPTV in order to use the tv's stretching. Really it just passes it through to the tv untouched, much like cable would do, or an OTA reception.


Nope. 
If you select stretch, the HR20 will be passing a stretched image to your TV. (Assuming that your HR20 is working properly)

Now, as I don't have your TV, I can't speak to what your TV would do when it receives a stretched signal.

Once again, pillar box sends the unmolested 4:3 aspect signal to your TV.

If the signal received is a 16:9 HD signal, what you have set for pillar, stretch, crop, is irrelevant. The signal sent will be the original 16:9 aspect.

Someone help..... please.....


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> doesn't work the way he described.


Yep, not using Native On myself, my brain farted when I tried to recall things from the 1 or two times I played with it. 

Native on should pass through the signal....don't know what I was thinking, maybe about quiting time - work does seem to interfere with posting way too much


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

say-what said:


> work does seem to interfere with posting way too much


Tell me about it...
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Okay, it seems I have reason to be concerned. All 4 resolutions are selected.

If I turn Native OFF then I lose the ability for ESPN to be in 720p and Discover HD Theater to be in 1080i automatically.

If I turn Native ON then SD material is being processed by the HR20.

If Format is set to Pillar Box then I get an SD image with black bars put up there by the HR20. Those are not inherent in the signal. My TV then applies its stretch mode to that so it still has black bars but they're now thinner due to the stretch. On my Zenith there would be no black bars and a really nice stretch mode called Natural Wide done entirely by the TV.

Crop is just a zoom mode and then my TV stretches that for a total mess.

If set to Stretch I get short, fat people and my TV then stretches that again so on the left and right edges I get EXTREMELY fat people.

I am absolutely speechless that someone thought that Native Mode somehow means processing of the SD signal. That simply does not make any sense. Native is Native. Send what you get. Don't touch it, don't process it. Send it. If the word "format" enters the discussion then the point is missed. NO FORMATTING! <grin>

I also checked out the above referenced thread and it really isn't talking about this issue.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Try resetting the box via the system menu (not the red button) and see if that helps....


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

say-what said:


> Try resetting the box via the system menu (not the red button) and see if that helps....


Er, to what end? I'm only asking because so far no one has said that what I'm seeing isn't the way it's supposed to work.

For an example, my Zenith had stretch modes too but as soon as you turned on NATIVE mode they no longer functioned. Native there meant native.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> Er, to what end? I'm only asking because so far no one has said that what I'm seeing isn't the way it's supposed to work.
> 
> For an example, my Zenith had stretch modes too but as soon as you turned on NATIVE mode they no longer functioned. Native there meant native.


It could be that the software wants to stay locked on Native Off and the reset will clear the false memory and allow the change to Native On to register.....it can't hurt......


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> Er, to what end? I'm only asking because so far no one has said that what I'm seeing isn't the way it's supposed to work.
> 
> For an example, my Zenith had stretch modes too but as soon as you turned on NATIVE mode they no longer functioned. Native there meant native.


Your posting what I said in #11 aren't you?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

say-what said:


> It could be that the software wants to stay locked on Native Off and the reset will clear the false memory and allow the change to Native On to register.....it can't hurt......


The HR20 simply can't do what he's asking. Native mode is only for the resolution, not the aspect ratio.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> The HR20 simply can't do what he's asking. Native mode is only for the resolution, not the aspect ratio.


And doesn't "he" want to have the TV do that?


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Native mode is only for the resolution, not the aspect ratio.


Without playing more with Native Mode myself, I wasn't quite sure if you could achieve a passthrough so the TV could adjust the aspect ratio or something close. Thanks.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Okay, it seems I have reason to be concerned. All 4 resolutions are selected.


No you don't. (again, assuming your box is functioning)



Agrajag said:


> If I turn Native OFF then I lose the ability for ESPN to be in 720p and Discover HD Theater to be in 1080i automatically.


Yes, if native is off. you would use the format button to cycle through different resolutions/formats



Agrajag said:


> If I turn Native ON then SD material is being processed by the HR20.


NO,no, no, NO, NO!!! Native = on with 480i selected, pillar selected will pass the unmolested 480i signal to the TV. THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF NATIVE MODE!!!



Agrajag said:


> If Format is set to Pillar Box then I get an SD image with black bars put up there by the HR20. Those are not inherent in the signal. My TV then applies its stretch mode to that so it still has black bars but they're now thinner due to the stretch. On my Zenith there would be no black bars and a really nice stretch mode called Natural Wide done entirely by the TV.


Your not understanding! yes, the HR20 supplies the black (or grey) bars, but only to fill the empty space that the 4:3 image doesn't. If you use your TV's stretch mode on the pillar boxed image, you should see no pillar bars! Unless your stretch mode is different than any other that I have seen, which is possible.



Agrajag said:


> Crop is just a zoom mode and then my TV stretches that for a total mess.


Yes. Crop is a zoom mode for zooming into letterboxed 4:3 content. Kinda the worst of both worlds.



Agrajag said:


> If set to Stretch I get short, fat people and my TV then stretches that again so on the left and right edges I get EXTREMELY fat people.
> 
> I am absolutely speechless that someone thought that Native Mode somehow means processing of the SD signal. That simply does not make any sense. Native is Native. Send what you get. Don't touch it, don't process it. Send it. If the word "format" enters the discussion then the point is missed. NO FORMATTING! <grin>


To my knowledge, no box works the way you are asking. During set up, you told the HR20 that you had a 16:9 TV. But now you are saying that you want it to pretend that you have a 4:3 TV and send it a 4:3 signal. I don't think you can have it both ways. At least not with this box. Maybe I am wrong, and other boxes behave this way, just none that I have ever heard of.



Agrajag said:


> I also checked out the above referenced thread and it really isn't talking about this issue.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Er, to what end? I'm only asking because so far no one has said that what I'm seeing isn't the way it's supposed to work.
> 
> For an example, my Zenith had stretch modes too but as soon as you turned on NATIVE mode they no longer functioned. Native there meant native.


TV's very by manufacturer how they stretch or crop. Try dissabeling 480i and 480p, fooling your TV into thinking it is recieving an HD signal, it should than allow your set to stretch and crop all you wish without the pillar bars.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

very, exactly. I want the TV to control the aspect/format. As far as Post #11, I don't really follow it and I think it's terms. On my Pioneer, FULL applied to 480i means short, fat people. In other words and equal stretch. Stretch everything equally horizontally. Natural Wide stretches only the edges of the picture and not the center. Since 90% of your viewing is in the center that mode looks great. It was a top selling point of the TV back at the time. Other sets and boxes have a mode like this but they never looked as good.

I am slightly annoyed that this box is clearly used. It's not beat up but the remote and the unit both have the stickers on them identifying them as part of a pair. The remote has some scratches on it that were there out of the box as well.

I'm sure someone QA'ed this when it got returned but it makes you wonder with so many getting sent back.

I'm still just shocked that Native doesn't mean native. How could they possibly misunderstand that? Is there someone to e-mail to make them aware of this? Just add one other Format option. Call it "Full" or "Native" and I'm home free.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

If I leave my TV set to what SONY calls "FULL" screen, I than use the HR20 to stretch or crop, it does quite well actually. I can see very little difference between how the TV does it or the HR20. I leave NATIVE ON with all resolutions selected. More convenient to use the one remote. Hope that helps.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

cygnusloop said:


> NO,no, no, NO, NO!!! Native = on with 480i selected, pillar selected will pass the unmolested 480i signal to the TV. THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF NATIVE MODE!!!


Hahahaha. Now we're having fun. Trust me, I agree 100% with this comment. I'm just not experiencing it.

Here's my situation. Native = On, Format = Pillar Box.

On my Pioneer I have the following modes:

Normal 4:3, Full, Natural Wide, Cinema Wide, Zoom.

Normal 4:3 is an untouched mode. It's what it's getting from the HR20. Generally this would result in a 4:3 image in the center of the screen with gray bars that the Pioneer puts up there in the dead space. With the above settings what I see is my entire point. I see the 4:3 picture in the center, then black bars on the side of that and then gray bars outside of that! In other words Pillar Box is putting black bars on the image. I took pictures of this that I can post later if it helps (heading out to dinner any moment.)



> To my knowledge, no box works the way you are asking.


We went through this on the TiVo forums and finally they understood. The Zenith HD 520 box works exactly like I mention as do others. It's just that most people hadn't encountered that and thus, were happy out of ignorance with what the TiVo gave them. They couldn't understand why I'd object to having to use the remote to manually change modes. When you never had to before you're going to object. <grin>

So essentially this Native feature is entirely useless to me. The only thing it gets me is ESPN in 720p. WOW. Great feature. hehe Other than that it works EXACTLY like the HD TiVo that doesn't even support that feature. I need to put the SD material in Stretch mode or else have black bars or worse instead of just letting my TV do the work and getting a really nice stretch.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Davring, you're having the HR20 do your stretching. I want the opposite because the Pioneer Elite TV I have is known for having the best stretch modes out there. I want the HR20 to leave all signals alone and the TV will handle them.

If I turn 480i off then my TV will get an HD signal and it will disable all stretch modes as you wouldn't want to stretch 16:9 material.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> very, exactly. I want the TV to control the aspect/format. As far as Post #11, I don't really follow it and I think it's terms. On my Pioneer, FULL applied to 480i means short, fat people. In other words and equal stretch. Stretch everything equally horizontally. Natural Wide stretches only the edges of the picture and not the center. Since 90% of your viewing is in the center that mode looks great. It was a top selling point of the TV back at the time. Other sets and boxes have a mode like this but they never looked as good.
> I am slightly annoyed that this box is clearly used. It's not beat up but the remote and the unit both have the stickers on them identifying them as part of a pair. The remote has some scratches on it that were there out of the box as well.
> I'm sure someone QA'ed this when it got returned but it makes you wonder with so many getting sent back.
> I'm still just shocked that Native doesn't mean native. How could they possibly misunderstand that? Is there someone to e-mail to make them aware of this? Just add one other Format option. Call it "Full" or "Native" and I'm home free.


If I'm [even] getting close: what you want is a variable stretch mode. Now was this on your TV or your "old" receiver? If you were counting on this being in the HR-20, it isn't & there will be no way for you to find it. If it was on your TV then there should be a chance.
More info please.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

The HR20 is sending your TV a NATIVE 4:3 picture, it is also sending filler bars(your choice of colors)to fill the screen of a 16:9 set. Your TV needs to receive a 16:9 signal for it to display properly. Part of that signal is the 4:3 picture and the other part is the generated filler bars. If you tell your Pioneer to stretch this signal it does exactly that, it streches everything, bars and all. It has no way to know that part of that signal(picture to the TV)are the filler bars. If you set the HR20 to output only 720p or 1080i it will not generate the filler bars because it is outputing a HD signal. This will let you controll your set the way you like. I just verified this with my set and it works "exactly" that way. Your set can receive the "bogus" HD signal from the HR20 and convert to the lower resolutions as needed. Again since I choose to leave the HR20 in native mode I use the HR20 to alter the picture to my liking. Hope this clears things up a bit.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Davring, you're having the HR20 do your stretching. I want the opposite because the Pioneer Elite TV I have is known for having the best stretch modes out there. I want the HR20 to leave all signals alone and the TV will handle them.
> 
> If I turn 480i off then my TV will get an HD signal and it will disable all stretch modes as you wouldn't want to stretch 16:9 material.


When I tune to a HD channel my set returns to "full" automatically, but I can still zoom, crop or stretch the TV(wouldn't want to on 16:9 HD). Good example, UHD is broadcasting Northern Exposure in 1080i (4:3)and I can stretch it to fill the screen. Check to see if your set will let you overide that setting. My fathers Samsung works as you have decribed. Keep us all posted.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Understand that not all TV work the same. Some will modify the HD picture & some [like mine] won't. This is another reason for all of the settings as everybody is using different equipment, that can or can not do certain things to the picture. Talk about a "can of worms" with setup.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Hahahaha. Now we're having fun.


lest we forget. This is ALL in fun, and in the spirit of helping others. i do get excited from time to time. Helps keep me young!
:bonk1: :goodjob:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> lest we forget. This is ALL in fun, and in the spirit of helping others. i do get excited from time to time. Helps keep me young!
> :bonk1: :goodjob:


If your avatar is current I think you might be getting too excited lately. :lol:


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

yes, i think we are clearly talking about an unusual stretch mode on your pioneer. One suggestion, if this mode is really important to you, keep an SD box, and use it for SD programming. crappy suggestion, i know, but it's all i got right now.

p.s. my shift key seems to have died.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Understand that not all TV work the same. Some will modify the HD picture & some [like mine] won't. This is another reason for all of the settings as everybody is using different equipment, that can or can not do certain things to the picture. Talk about a "can of worms" with setup.


I prefer things simple, usually if it is a 4:3 broadcast I leave it alone as it is still a nice sized ergonomically correct picture. The sides of the screen are black like the TV with a picture in the middle! Most SD broadcasts look better in 4:3, IMHO anyway.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

davring said:


> I prefer things simple, usually if it is a 4:3 broadcast I leave it alone as it is still a nice sized ergonomically correct picture. The sides of the screen are black like the TV with a picture in the middle! Most SD broadcasts look better in 4:3, IMHO anyway.


i agree with you in principle davring. the mode that the op is talking about sounds alot like the tnt stretch-o-matic mode that kinda makes me nauseous. but, to each his own. otherwise, we wouldn't have all that much to talk about.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

davring said:


> I prefer things simple, usually if it is a 4:3 broadcast I leave it alone as it is still a nice sized ergonomically correct picture. The sides of the screen are black like the TV with a picture in the middle! Most SD broadcasts look better in 4:3, IMHO anyway.


Yeah, I'm using native & pillarbox, but I've moved to 480p as I have a LCD flat panel 1080p.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Yeah, I'm using native & pillarbox, but I've moved to 480p as I have a LCD flat panel 1080p.


I defeated 480i as well on my LCD 1080p flat panel as well, looks a little better


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

davring said:


> I defeated 480i as well on my LCD 1080p flat panel as well, looks a little better


For the record, then, you are using the HR20 to deinterlace the 480i signal, and using the TV to scale it to 1080p. Probably not a bad approach, FWIW.

Or at least that's what it sounds like VOS is doing. Davring, did you defeat 480i on the TV or on the HR20


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

davring said:


> I defeated 480i as well on my LCD 1080p flat panel as well, looks a little better


I did that and then looked and said "sure that looks better". Then I noticed it was still in 480i as it didn't change until a changed channels.
It's all in the mind.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I did that and then looked and said "sure that looks better". Then I noticed it was still in 480i as it didn't change until a changed channels.
> It's all in the mind.


Typically, in my experience, differences in the quality of the source content FAR outweigh any differences due to which scaler/deinterlacer is being used.

The power of suggestion is formidable.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

cygnusloop said:


> For the record, then, you are using the HR20 to deinterlace the 480i signal, and using the TV to scale it to 1080p. Probably not a bad approach, FWIW.
> 
> Or at least that's what it sounds like VOS is doing. Davring, did you defeat 480i on the TV or on the HR20


On the HR20, I "think" the TV picture is a little better, IMHO only


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> The power of suggestion is formidable.


It's the "placebo effect". :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I'll have to play with my computer and grab a good OTA NBC program [1080i] and then see how well [if any] Nvidia does for 1080p conversion. My PC is connected to the same TV through 1080p. Always something to think about or play with...


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## phonecarhead (Jan 28, 2007)

Native on is evil...EVIL!!!!

I have a 61"1080p sammy. I have tried all the settings. I have finally landed on native OFF, 1080i as the only resolution set. Picture is great, channels change fast. I love it. Death to native on.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

phonecarhead said:


> Native on is evil...EVIL!!!!
> 
> I have a 61"1080p sammy. I have tried all the settings. I have finally landed on native OFF, 1080i as the only resolution set. Picture is great, channels change fast. I love it. Death to native on.


This is why it should always be determined by the end user.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

I think the basic point of the original post in this thread is why does the HR20 not simple pass the received signal through to the TV when Native ON is selected. I have to say that I agree that it would be nice if it did behave this way instead of the way it does.

Unfortunately, the HR20 always tinkers with the signal whether Native is set to on or off. My attitude is that if users change this to Native ON, they are doing so because they know what they want and the HR20 should ignore any processing.

The previous posts about PILLAR not altering the signal are false. There are not two parts to the signal. There is just one frame of video, and the HR20 is altering the frames to add the bars. The only way the black bars disappear is if your TV simply does a SFP (Short Fat People) stretch. Any of the higher end TVs with the types of variable stretches will not.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> I think the basic point of the original post in this thread is why does the HR20 not simple pass the received signal through to the TV when Native ON is selected. I have to say that I agree that it would be nice if it did behave this way instead of the way it does.
> Unfortunately, the HR20 always tinkers with the signal whether Native is set to on or off. My attitude is that if users change this to Native ON, they are doing so because they know what they want and the HR20 should ignore any processing.
> The previous posts about PILLAR not altering the signal are false. There are not two parts to the signal. There is just one frame of video, and the HR20 is altering the frames to add the bars. The only way the black bars disappear is if your TV simply does a SFP (Short Fat People) stretch. Any of the higher end TVs with the types of variable stretches will not.


"I think I see" your point, but since it's a video feed and not an RF input, how can it not?
Unless you use a SD iinput.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

lguvenoz said:


> I think the basic point of the original post in this thread is why does the HR20 not simple pass the received signal through to the TV when Native ON is selected. I have to say that I agree that it would be nice if it did behave this way instead of the way it does.
> 
> Unfortunately, the HR20 always tinkers with the signal whether Native is set to on or off. My attitude is that if users change this to Native ON, they are doing so because they know what they want and the HR20 should ignore any processing.
> 
> The previous posts about PILLAR not altering the signal are false. There are not two parts to the signal. There is just one frame of video, and the HR20 is altering the frames to add the bars. The only way the black bars disappear is if your TV simply does a SFP (Short Fat People) stretch. Any of the higher end TVs with the types of variable stretches will not.


The HR20 does not in anyway alter a 4:3 picture it is merely sending a 16:9 frame to your TV as you have asked it to by way of your settings. You cannot send a 4:3 frame to a 16:9 screen with no mask, the TV would not know what to do, it would not know where to put the picture. What would be on the rest of the screen? Snow? It needs some form of reference. If your set could stretch the picture variably, then you could adjust it so the mask would be out of view. You are still recieving a "native" signal.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Very: The Natural Wide mode is on my TV, not on the receivers. I never want the receivers doing the processing as they're never as good at it as my TV is. The Zenith, which is good at everything else, has LOUSY stretch modes.

Davring, the TV is perfectly adept at receiving a true 4:3 picture. If I leave it set to "Normal" then the TV will put up GRAY bars (black bars on a CRT RPTV are not the best solution). That's how I knew the bars I was seeing were not coming from the TV but from the HR20. If I limit the HR20 to 720p and 1080i it will send 480i as 720p and my TV will assume that's an HD signal an lock it into "FULL" mode, which means short, fat equally stretched picture. I just went into the HR20 and turned off 480i and 480p. When I changed over to CNN (SD) there were black bars on it. Again, this can only come from the HR20.

What bugs me is that we covered all this in the TiVo forums way back and a DirecTV engineer was there posting and said he understood the whole issue. So much for that thinking.

lguvenoz, you hit the nail on the head. Why the heck does a mode listed as Native not just leave the signal alone as the name implies? If these posters could see Pioneer's Natural Wide they'd understand why I'm so disappointed. It's excellent. I can't stand TNT's stretch-o-matic.

Davring, you said, "You cannot send a 4:3 frame to a 16:9 screen with no mask". This is an incorrect statement. The Pioneer TV has NO problem what-so-ever dealing with a true 4:3 signal. When it encounters one it responds based on the MODE I have it set for. Again, that can be "Normal" (where it puts gray bars up that are generated by the TV), "Zoom" (where is zooms in enough to fill the screen), "Cinema Wide" (which I forget how that works) and "Natural Wide" where the picture is SLIGHTLY zoomed (I only see about half the news tickers on the bottom) and the extreme sides of the image are stretched to fill the screen. Thus again, it can receiver a native 4:3 signal and that's how I worked for a couple of years with it and the Zenith. If you'd like I can send you the PDF manuals for both of them and you can read it for yourself. The Zenith in Native mode does NO signal processing to ANY resolution for ANY reason. That's all I was hoping for here.

DirecTV could make me happy with a very simple fix. Either disable all FORMAT options when Native is ON or, better yet, add a new FORMAT mode called "Native" that does what I'm asking for. I already have personal experience regarding what will occur (and you can go over to Hometheaterspot and ask 3 dozen other Pioneer Elite owners about this and they'll verify it for you). <grin>

Saying that the HR20 in no way alters the 4:3 signal but just sends a 16:9 frame is a total contradictory comment. It is 100% altering the signal based on the FORMAT setting you have set. If "Pillar Bars" it adds black bars. If "Stretch" it does the equal horizontal (fat people) stretch. If "Crop" it zooms in. Those are all altering the signal. I want it to do NOTHING. Send me the signal. End of story.


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## drjjr (Jan 31, 2007)

I have a Pioneer PRO510-HD and decided to try this very thing.
For my SD source (a ReplayTV) I have the TV set to "Natural Wide" which fills the screen with a (mostly) natural looking 16:9 rendering of 4:3 material. In other words, Headline News (channel 204) looks pretty good. The Pioneer set will lock to "Full" when it receives 480p or 1080i signal (mine won't do 720p). So I thought the same thing "Native = On" means give me channel 204 (or any other SD channel) as I would get from an SD box. In 480i the set will switch to "Natural Wide" and the picture will fill the 16:9 screen. Instead we get the data from channel 204 + the bars since there is no "None" option where we select "Pillar Bars." The TV is set to "Natural Wide" but since the signal ALREADY has the bars added, there's not much it can do.
And while I was perfectly content for the past couple of years (since I got an HD Tivo) and lived with the bars, whenever I watch my ReplayTV that is 480i, I would miss seeing the screen filled.
I understand for the purists that this is not the ideal, but the reason I bought the set 6 years ago was that it did a great job of stretching SD material to fill the 16:9 screen.
So, I understand the dilemma.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

DRJJR, thanks for the extra example. Much appreciated. I can't tell you how many times people who don't own our TV tell me that the TV can't do what I've had it doing for years.

What I found the main problem to be is that MOST people haven't had the luxury of our TV AND a set top box that can do this seamlessly. They've had to deal with solutions that got either one side or the other or both sides of the equation wrong.

When the HR10-250 came out, this same thread cropped up on the TiVo forum and it went on for pages until people had to accept the fact that others equipment could do things theirs couldn't. After people realized that it was not only possible but also possibly beneficial, the conversation got interesting.

What shocked me was to have everyone point out that this receiver has native mode only to find out it's really nothing of the sort. It's a totally crippled native mode. I can't really see how this version of it is of use to anyone. It ruins SD and is slow to change the channel for HD. What's the point?

The part that bothers me now is it appears I might be the only person around screaming for them to fix this as everyone else has bought in on the concept that what I want isn't even possible. <grin>


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Agra, one thought, take the SD output (S-video?) to another input on your set for SD broadcasts. Will the HR20 still project the bars? Just a thought...You could have one input for HD and another for SD from the same HR20.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> The part that bothers me now is it appears I might be the only person around screaming for them to fix this as everyone else has bought in on the concept that what I want isn't even possible. <grin>


Don't be too bothered as I don't think I want it. I don't have your equipment so I'm sure I don't know what I'm missing. Given this, I do like what I have on my Sony 46' 1080p flat screen.
I'm sure this is why they have horse races, as everybody has their own likes.
Sorry the HR-20 doesn't do what you would like.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

davring said:


> Agra, one thought, take the SD output (S-video?) to another input on your set for SD broadcasts. Will the HR20 still project the bars? Just a thought...You could have one input for HD and another for SD from the same HR20.


see post #51


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Guys, tell me this. What is the point of this feature the way it is? They support something they call a "Native" mode and then for the one area where it comes in most handy, they process the picture and force a non-native result?

I don't get it. In what meeting did they discuss this feature and think that this implementation of it was of use to people?

Who uses this mode and for what? The ONLY value I can see right now is for one channel, ESPN (okay, two if you count ESPN2 as a distinct channel). Perhaps a local here and there uses 720p too but you can't tell me they designed this feature around those few cases. 

Where it would come in most handy is in the case I'm barking about. 

My point now is that this feature is defective. It's brain-dead. It serves virtually no purpose and, in fact, has people referring to it as evil. How can we go about getting it fixed?


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

I understand what you want the box to do now, Agrajag. Unfortunately it just doesn't do it, at least not at this time. The heart of the matter is the "TV type" settings on the HR20. You have to choose 4:3 or 16:9, and it is global. If this setting could be dynamic, I *think* it would do what you want, assuming your TV would "understand" what to do when it sees a 4:3 aspect signal, which it sounds like it does. You could confirm this, I think, by changing the value for TV type in setup, and see what your TV does. I don't know how "simple" the fix would be, but it seems that an addition to the formats (pillar, stretch, crop) as you suggested would be possible. How I think this new mode _could _work would be to dynamically adjust the TV type setting based on selecting the "new" format mode. Sounds like a good wishlist item to me, and my quick scan of the wishlist didn't turn it up, although I'm not exactly sure what to search for (Brott??). One problem might be that this isn't that common of a TV feature, likely on mostly high-end stuff, but I could be wrong. So you may have trouble getting some traction. That said, it might be a simple fix, and now that the box is getting stable, who knows....

The only other work around that I can think of is the one I mentioned before, use an SD DVR for SD programming. Sounds like you might have one, but you gotta run cables, pay an extra $5/mo., etc... I know bad solution. If changing the TV type works, I guess that's another workaround, but it's very manual, and also a bad solution. Wish there was more that we could do for you. Wishlist is the best I got, sorry.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

cygnus, I'll give the 4:3 thing a shot just to see what happens.

Okay, no luck there. 16:9 material looked like it would on a 4:3. bars top and bottom but filled the screen horizontally. SD material forced the TV into "FULL" mode which means it can't apply any stretch modes. Not sure why.

Please understand that part of my annoyance here is that I have a TV with this feature and it used to be just great. Then "better" equipment came out and I lost this feature. I knew I was losing it to the HR10-250 but finally got one only as a stop-gap measure until the HR20 stabilized. To wait all this time to be disappointed again is, to say the least, surprising. My only real option at this point is to give up on the DVR and go back to my Zenith but that's even temporary. Once the new MPEG-4 stuff is live that won't work any longer.

Thanks for hanging in there to understand. Again, I've been through this before on the TiVo forums when all the original replies were of the "that's not possible" type. Thus I understand entirely why this sort of problem can happen. It's just funny that Sony and Zenith supported this on their first generation HD boxes and got it right and no one appears to have taken note except those of us that lost the feature along the way. <grin>


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> What shocked me was to have everyone point out that this receiver has native mode only to find out it's really nothing of the sort. It's a totally crippled native mode. I can't really see how this version of it is of use to anyone. It ruins SD and is slow to change the channel for HD. What's the point?


Personally, I don't use it. I think the HR20 does quite a good job of scaling/deinterlacing. The HR20 has some advantages over the TV for processing as it has access to some data that is not passed to the TV (in particular, motion vectors, but there are many, many threads on *that* too, and I certainly don't want to get into it here.) For my 1080p, I have native=off, and 1080i only. I prefer 4:3 programming in its OAR, so it's just not an issue for me. If I had your TV, maybe I would change my mind, but I don't, so....


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I'm still trying to understand the cable signal, whether it is Component or HDMI.
Given we talking about an SD image, 640 x 480, how would this go "true native" to a display that even in "480i/p" would have a 720x 480. What or how do you center the lack of 80 pixels?


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Please understand that part of my annoyance here is that I have a TV with this feature and it used to be just great. Then "better" equipment came out and I lost this feature. I


I completely understand, as do many around here who "upgraded" from TiVo, only to lose their DLB's.

(How's *that* for invoking DLB's in a completely unrelated thread, high five? JayW?, jheda?,... don't leave me hangin'....  )


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

You should be "hung" for that one.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Okay, no luck there. 16:9 material looked like it would on a 4:3. bars top and bottom but filled the screen horizontally. SD material forced the TV into "FULL" mode which means it can't apply any stretch modes. Not sure why.


I can't believe I am going to ask this, but..
You do have Native=ON, and 480i checked. What you describe is what I would expect if, say, only 1080i was checked.

But, just as likely that it is only going to send a 16:9 aspect picture letterboxed into a 4:3 frame.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> I can't believe I am going to ask this, but..
> You do have Native=ON, and 480i checked. What you describe is what I would expect if, say, only 1080i was checked.
> But, just as likely that it is only going to send a 16:9 aspect picture letterboxed into a 4:3 frame.


The "pillarbox" sends 40 "blanks" [black or gray], the signal, and another 40 blanks. this is with component & HDMI.
Now set the aspect to 4:3 and the "blanks" go away & you lose the top & bottom.
16:9 becomes letterboxed instead of pillarbox out the S-Video.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

I think VOS was touching on this...

We are talking about changing the TV type, not just using an SD output from the HR20 to an SD input on the TV, right? Or are we talking about both?

Question: If the TV type is set to 4:3, and Native=ON, 480i checked, etc... Do you get the same aspect from the HDMI/Component that you get from the S-video/composite?
Hmmm....


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

cygnusloop said:


> Personally, I don't use it. I think the HR20 does quite a good job of scaling/deinterlacing. The HR20 has some advantages over the TV for processing as it has access to some data that is not passed to the TV (in particular, motion vectors, but there are many, many threads on *that* too, and I certainly don't want to get into it here.) For my 1080p, I have native=off, and 1080i only. I prefer 4:3 programming in its OAR, so it's just not an issue for me. If I had your TV, maybe I would change my mind, but I don't, so....


Cygnu, my father has the same Samsung HLS5687s 1080p set. A question we can't figure out is how he can stretch or crop a HD broadcast in a 4:3 aspect. Our local ABC broadcasts the evening network news in 720p 4:3 and he cannot do anything to it. I can with my 1080p LCD Sony. This may be along the same line of difficulty the OP is having. Different problem, I know, but some issues are the same.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

davring said:


> Cygnu, my father has the same Samsung HLS5687s 1080p set. A question we can't figure out is how he can stretch or crop a HD broadcast in a 4:3 aspect. Our local ABC broadcasts the evening network news in 720p 4:3 and he cannot do anything to it. I can with my 1080p LCD Sony. This may be along the same line of difficulty the OP is having. Different problem, I know, but some issues are the same.


I "lost" a Sony RPTV because the local new on their HD channel sent a 4:3 image & this couldn't be changed [as it was sent this way] & the blue CRT burned in. Part was no longer available. One "dead" HDTV.


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## drjjr (Jan 31, 2007)

I tried the same thing with my Pioneer Pro-510HD. What it did was make the HD channels have bars on the top and bottom but filled the screen from left to right. The SD channels seemed to look as I would expect: 480i, the TV did the stretching when set to "Natural Wide." I had the TV type set to 4:3, Native = On, Pillar Bars and checked 480i, 480p, and 1080i.
I think we already know that the "problem" (if we can call it that) is that the formatting and the "native" mode are not related. "True" native would mean sending the TV an SD channel in 480i with no bars and then letting the TV do what it would normally do with a 480i signal. 
I've been so used to having the bars back since the HD-Tivo came out that it doesn't bother me too much, but it would be nice if it would work as the OP wants it to. I know I'd sign up for an option for the format to do "nothing" and let the TV figure out what it would do.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

davring said:


> Cygnu, my father has the same Samsung HLS5687s 1080p set. A question we can't figure out is how he can stretch or crop a HD broadcast in a 4:3 aspect. Our local ABC broadcasts the evening network news in 720p 4:3 and he cannot do anything to it. I can with my 1080p LCD Sony. This may be along the same line of difficulty the OP is having. Different problem, I know, but some issues are the same.


I will assume that we are talking about the HD broadcast of a SD program. If this is the case, the pillar bars are part of the 16:9 frame that the station is broadcasting. So, it's not a "true" 4:3 broadcast.

There is a button on the Sammy remote called P.Size. On an HD frame, there should be 3 choices to cycle through. 16:9, 4:3, and Wide Fit. Wide fit is the one that you want, if I am understanding your question. This mode is a zoom, not a stretch, though. As in it will cut off the top and bottom, but it will fill the screen. These modes I described were for the video inputs, however, not the antenna input. I know with the antenna the modes are different, (there is a zoom1, zoom2 in that case) but I don't use the antenna input, so I am not sure if any of them are a true stretch. It's a popular TV, though, so maybe someone will chime in.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

drjjr said:


> I tried the same thing with my Pioneer Pro-510HD. What it did was make the HD channels have bars on the top and bottom but filled the screen from left to right. The SD channels seemed to look as I would expect: 480i, the TV did the stretching when set to "Natural Wide." I had the TV type set to 4:3, Native = On, Pillar Bars and checked 480i, 480p, and 1080i.
> I think we already know that the "problem" (if we can call it that) is that the formatting and the "native" mode are not related. "True" native would mean sending the TV an SD channel in 480i with no bars and then letting the TV do what it would normally do with a 480i signal.
> I've been so used to having the bars back since the HD-Tivo came out that it doesn't bother me too much, but it would be nice if it would work as the OP wants it to. I know I'd sign up for an option for the format to do "nothing" and let the TV figure out what it would do.


Yes. This is what I would expect for the setup you describe. So, if you can do it manually, it seems possible that it could be implemented to to it automatically. The HR20 would need to be smart enough to know that it is dealing with a 4:3 frame, instead of a 16:9 frame, but guess what it is smart enough already. That is exactly what it does now. If it's 16:9, it ignores the formating, and just displays the full frame in the OAR. If it could be made to understand that it needs to switch to the 4:3 TV type "under the hood" if the program is 4:3, based on this hypothetical new mode, then it *should* work. It's starting to sound like a valid wishlist item to me. Post it and see how many of your fellow lucky Pioneer owners come out of the woodwork. The number of lurkers on this board now is VAST. Like I said before, you never know...


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

I agree with cygnus. We should submit this on the wishlist. It would be a very definite nice to have feature. I had already gotten used to giving up my TV's "Wide Zoom" approach to handling SD content a while back so I haven't been too annoyed by the HR20 in this regards, but it would be nice to get it back.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

davring said:


> The HR20 does not in anyway alter a 4:3 picture it is merely sending a 16:9 frame to your TV as you have asked it to by way of your settings. You cannot send a 4:3 frame to a 16:9 screen with no mask, the TV would not know what to do, it would not know where to put the picture. What would be on the rest of the screen? Snow? It needs some form of reference. If your set could stretch the picture variably, then you could adjust it so the mask would be out of view. You are still recieving a "native" signal.


Any higher end HDTV can easily handle both 4:3 and 16:9 signals, and normally has settings to tell the TV how to handle the 4:3 signals when it comes in. The fact that the HR20 is adding 80 pixels worth data for every line means that the signal is altered. What you are missing with regards to the variable stretching is that companies like Sony and Pioneer developed proprietary algorithms to handle the stretching of SD signals (4:3) to fill an HD (16:9) frame. These algorithms apply variable amounts of zooming to different areas of the screen to reduce the distortion at the center of the image.

Additionally the set looks at the frame size received to determine what to do with the picture. If a 16:9 frame, display normally, if a 4:3 frame apply the selected zoom algorithm. To most effectively utilize these capabilities the HR20 should send both screen sizes down to the set when native is on.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

What you say makes sense, there are so many variables. I didn't realize, when I bought it, but my new Sony will let me do anything to the picture I wish regardless of the input. It will, although, got to a "proper setting" if I leave the TV set to "full automatic"


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Cygnus, I suspect if the HR20 also had a "Natural Wide" option I might use it. Note that Zenith's box had one (called Panorama) and it was horrible. For now I just turned Native off and left Format set to Stretch. Remember that I have a CRT RPTV so leaving bars up most of the time isn't the best idea for me. If not for that I'd leave 4:3 pillar boxed all the time.

When I did the checking above, yes, Native was On and 480i was checked. All 4 are checked. 

On that, I also tripped over an oddity yesterday. In frustration, as noted above, I turned off Native and turned on stretch. I then watched something on HBO-HD. The box showed me it was in 1080i as it should. I then switched over to CNN and the box changed the channel and the LED switched over to 720p. Huh? Why'd it choose 720p for SD material? I played around with one of the remote's buttons (it was late/early so I now forget which one) and manually got it back to 1080i but I wonder if this has anything to do with anything here.

Very, I'm using HDMI with the box. I could switch over to component for a test However, I don't see that as being of much use as the Zenith box I own has a DVI out and that's what I used. First I was DVI-to-DVI (I owned a Pioneer Elite 630HD with DVI inputs) and then Pioneer sent me a 730HDi that has HDMI ports so I ran the Zenith DVI to HDMI and this worked all the way through that.

I can check the various outs and combos on the HR20 to see what happens. If they happen to have something that ends up in the right setup perhaps it'd be easier to create a mode that triggers it from the other setup.

Dave, what your father ran into is very similar in my view. Pioneer, when they encounter ANYTHING over 480i locks out control. You get what they call a "Full" picture and that's it. No playing with it is allowed. Several family members have various Samsung DLP's and they all act the same way. Once they get what they perceive as a non-SD signal, all SD controls vanish.

DRJJR, boy I'm glad you're here! So we both get the same exact response to our testing. Now we just need to find some others like us to build momentum. hehe.

Cygnus, where do we post this? I IM'ed Earl last night and he said he'd already made Brott aware of it (I assume Brott is a DirecTV contact as I'm pretty new here) and that he added this to the wishlist. I'd like to see it there to know it's there and then we can ask about it from time-to-time.

Lewis is also exactly right in his assessment. I owned a Sony as well and it too had some very nice stretch modes. The Pioneer "Natural Wide" is really special. You can watch it and swear you're watching widescreen SD. No one looks short and fat and the picture looks entirely, er, natural. With standard "stretch" (on the HR10-250) it got to the point that when I see people in HD they look funny because they're so thin. 

Once everything is in HD this is a non-issue but that's ages away. HD won't even be the majority for a long time yet.


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## drjjr (Jan 31, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Once everything is in HD this is a non-issue but that's ages away. HD won't even be the majority for a long time yet.


The more I think about it, the more I want this feature. Before yesterday I never gave it a second thought.
Thanks for ruining TV for me, Ag. :lol:


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

You're welcome. hehe

I've been screaming about this issue in every corner of the internet since the Zenith needed to get retired a few years ago. I am constantly amazed at the number of people who don't realize this is even an option. 

Again, my argument is still there. No one has yet told me what benefit Native = On provides as its currently implemented. I'm just not seeing it. The only one I see is that 720p (all two channels of it) will be in 720p and 1080i will be in 1080i. That's it. Is that really what DirecTV went to all the trouble for???

Am I making sense? With all the fixed pixel sets now shipping it seems clear that this feature was not added for them. It seems pretty simple to jump to the conclusion that it was added for people like you and I that have sets that can handle multiple resolutions. 

I would love to hear from an engineer on this. What I'd like to simply know is, is the HR20 capable, at the hardware level, of sending a native 4:3 signal out without first editing it? If it is, then there's reason to hope that they might make it available for us. If it can't do it at all, then we're dead in the water.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Try: VOS over "very" as I can't alway tell what you're posting.
Now since you've brought this up [I hate it when I get a "bug"], I have to set my new Sony to "full" just to get "normal" 4:3 image. While I've seen some boxes with "your natural wide", it's not to my taste, but your same "issue" is why I MUST run full to have "normal".
We've been fighting "the big ones" and now it's time to take on some of the rest.
Brott isn't the D* contact [that I know of], but does manage our "wish list".
So not to steal any of "your thunder", but I want to pick up the torch and run with this for a while, as I have to use distorted setting to have them NOT BE distorted.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

VOS, no problem and thanks for the info on the wishlist. At the time I bought my set in 2002, DLP and LCD were a total mess. Even now I still feel this set has a better HD picture than any set I've seen but it certainly has its own trade-offs. I'd love to have a set where I could forget about burn-in and just run 4:3 with bars and be done with it. I could also let my son play his games and not worry. I could also grab back a bunch of floor space.

However, I would really miss the deeeeeep blacks, the full support of all resolutions and the cinema-like image.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> VOS, no problem and thanks for the info on the wishlist. At the time I bought my set in 2002, DLP and LCD were a total mess. Even now I still feel this set has a better HD picture than any set I've seen but it certainly has its own trade-offs. I'd love to have a set where I could forget about burn-in and just run 4:3 with bars and be done with it. I could also let my son play his games and not worry. I could also grab back a bunch of floor space.
> 
> However, I would really miss the deeeeeep blacks, the full support of all resolutions and the cinema-like image.


I am with you as far as the richness a CRT can provide, but I saw the new Bravia series Sony's and I was convinced. The blacks are excellent. I SURELY would not replace a good working CRT set, no way. That set you have was (and is) still state of the art for its technology.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

So what it "looks like" is we need an option added to the pillarbox settings [black, gray] for "none". I played the Myth Busters last night. The show was [SD, duh] in the 16:9 format. I use native and wanted to fill my screen as it was the correct aspect image. No luck at all. I could stretch the vertical to fill the screen [eight foot tall people], but was "locked" to the black bars horizontally.
Since I would guess there will be more 16:9 programing still being shown on SD channels, this is going to become a bigger issue than it has been. Hell we've just been happy to get an image that doesn't lockup for a while, but now it's time to "refine" the software so it works the way it should.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> So what it "looks like" is we need an option added to the pillarbox settings [black, gray] for "none". I played the Myth Busters last night. The show was [SD, duh] in the 16:9 format. I use native and wanted to fill my screen as it was the correct aspect image. No luck at all. I could stretch the vertical to fill the screen [eight foot tall people], but was "locked" to the black bars horizontally.
> Since I would guess there will be more 16:9 programing still being shown on SD channels, this is going to become a bigger issue than it has been. Hell we've just been happy to get an image that doesn't lockup for a while, but now it's time to "refine" the software so it works the way it should.


Thanks for running with this VOS. Ideally it would be nice to just have Native On = No HR20 manipulation of the video signal (live or playback).

What I have seen done in the ideal scenario is that the "TV Type" setting will always influence system generated screens (guide, settings, playlist, etc.) so that the box generates a full 16:9 or 4:3 image when the system must generate a screen, but that the full screen video (live or playback) is played at the native aspect ratio whether it be 4:3 or 16:9. For video insets (like when guide is up on the HR20) the box would maintain the original aspect ratio of the signal as well for the inset window, but generate the surrounding screen in either 16:9 or 4:3 based upon the "TV Type".

Does this make sense???


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> So what it "looks like" is we need an option added to the pillarbox settings [black, gray] for "none". I played the Myth Busters last night. The show was [SD, duh] in the 16:9 format. I use native and wanted to fill my screen as it was the correct aspect image. No luck at all. I could stretch the vertical to fill the screen [eight foot tall people], but was "locked" to the black bars horizontally.
> Since I would guess there will be more 16:9 programing still being shown on SD channels, this is going to become a bigger issue than it has been. Hell we've just been happy to get an image that doesn't lockup for a while, but now it's time to "refine" the software so it works the way it should.


VOS, I have the cousin of your set. On SD broadcasts leave your set in "full" and stretch or crop with HR20. The linear stretch appears to be the same ratio Sony uses.


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## Jazzy Jeff (Mar 11, 2007)

Let me just add one more thing, I have a Sony television HDTV CRT RPTV from what I gather is probably a little similar to the OP's tv. I have the stretch he has as well, except Sony calls it Wide Zoom. The only way I have been able to get wide zoom to work properly was to set native on, since the tv won't alter HD signals at all. With native on I set mode to stretch, okay I get fat people. I then turn the tv to wide zoom, and bam Perfect. Normal in the center, a little zoomed on the edge but hey it looks 100 times better than just normal stretch. 

In this mode the Guide is a little chopped but its a small price to pay for almost perfect A/R.

From what I can gather since I have no experience with newer tvs I would guess all tv's handle this differently. This is what works for me tho. Your milage will probably vary.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm with Lewis. Ideal would be that Native means native all the way. However, if the current design forces the use of the FORMAT function then adding a new entry there that results in no processing would do the trick.

Jeff, I tried your approach too. It does "work" except that "Natural Wide" doesn't touch the center of the screen, thus the "Stretch" from the HR20 gives me short, fat people and Natural Wide leaves them that way. Close but still not right.

BTW, just out of curiosity, why is it a good thing that VOS is running with this? I suspect I'm missing some info here. <grin>

VOS, while what you suggested sounds like it MIGHT work, it sounds questionable to me for some reason. Wouldn't a different FORMAT setting be more obvious and direct? FORMAT=NONE is more obvious than PILLAR BARS=NONE to me. If we can get this fixed and it's down to semantics of where and how then I don't care where the setting is. <grin>


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Sometimes a combination of settings with the TV and the HR20 does give good results. Even varies between shows depending on the quality of the broadcast.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

See what I think is: if you're using native, then you shouldn't need to make changes with your HR-20 settings. Native is to be "automatic". If it isn't then we would be using the HR-20 and manually make all of our setting changes. So what's the point of "native"?
Back to the OP's point.


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## Jazzy Jeff (Mar 11, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Jeff, I tried your approach too. It does "work" except that "Natural Wide" doesn't touch the center of the screen, thus the "Stretch" from the HR20 gives me short, fat people and Natural Wide leaves them that way. Close but still not right.
> <grin>


I understand now, I'll stick with all tv's are different, my TV's wide zoom stretches the center taller ever so slightly, like a bit of overscan really so the short fat syndrome disappears in the middle, I hope your problem gets solved.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Cygnus, where do we post this? I IM'ed Earl last night and he said he'd already made Brott aware of it (I assume Brott is a DirecTV contact as I'm pretty new here) and that he added this to the wishlist. I'd like to see it there to know it's there and then we can ask about it from time-to-time.


Brott is an HR20 user like the rest of us, who graciously manages the wishlist. If EB made him aware of the issue, rest assured that it will get onto the list, and into the surveys. Anyway, here's a link to the list if you didn't find it yet:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=80600


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> Brott is an HR20 user like the rest of us, who graciously manages the wishlist. If EB made him aware of the issue, rest assured that it will get onto the list, and into the surveys. Anyway, here's a link to the list if you didn't find it yet:


PM'd him & received a reply. Done!
Earl has passed it on.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

I also posted in that thread as per a request from Brott. Here's hoping it gets some traction.

It really should be a pretty easy thing to address I would think. It's not like we're asking for an entirely new, entirely unique feature. In fact, in this case we simply want the box to do virtually nothing! <grin>


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> In fact, in this case we simply want the box to do virtually nothing! <grin>


Well said!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Not that it isn't that easy, but as "we" don't know how it's doing things, it may not be.
One of the lessons from working with software engineers, you fix "one little thing" and can end up trashing so much else you [they] didn't think would. Some things just aren't easy.
The "wish" has been "sent up the line" to those that need to know.


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## drjjr (Jan 31, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Again, my argument is still there. No one has yet told me what benefit Native = On provides as its currently implemented. I'm just not seeing it. The only one I see is that 720p (all two channels of it) will be in 720p and 1080i will be in 1080i. That's it. Is that really what DirecTV went to all the trouble for???


From what I understood, if your TV is capable of rendering 720p and 1080i, then you'd rather not have to select one of those two for the output of the HR20 and then have the TV (or the HR20) do the conversion. You'd rather have the 720p signal of ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, and FOX sent as 720p to your set and the 1080i signal of NBC, CBS and others as 1080i to your set.

Without a "native" option, you'd pick one (say 1080i) for the HR20 to output and it would have to convert the 720p stations to 1080i and all your set would ever see is 1080i.

The purists would rather have the signal sent "as-is" and let the display handle it.

My set doesn't do 720p so for HD material it doesn't matter to me, I have it set to 1080i with native = off and the HR20 has to convert the 720p channels for me. But it would be nice to select Native = on, but tell the HR20 that I don't do 720p, let it convert those channels to 1080i but send the SD channels at 480i and without pillar bars and the world would be a happy place.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Okay.

I read thru this whole thread and no one asked the TV what it is seeing? (I have to try this when I get home....my Sony will tell me if the signal is 4:3 or 16:9 as well as 720p, 1080i, etc.).

I gave up on native on not only because of the speed issue but because I saw funny things happening and I wasn't sure if it was the HR20, the DirecTV signal or my TV. 

So, what does the TV think it is getting?

(BTW, you sure as heck can send a 4:3 480i signal to a TV from a digital source. All TVs know what to do with that signal.)


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

When I came to D*, I'd just bought a Sony RPTV & Sony SAT-200. I used the DVI connection. HD couldn't be changed, but SD was "handled" by the TV for all of the zoom, stretch, what ever you call them.
Some where D* sent out a replacement Samsung HD receiver. When I tried it I noticed the aspect ratio was off. Various setting never really worked out. Things were either 50 lbs lighter or 200 lbs heavier. If I would change between 16:9 & 4:3, I could get either SD or HD to look right, but not both. The unit went back.
Last summer I tried out local cable. Their DVR had 1394 output. The SD image again looked narrow. Setting the TV to "full" would correct this, but again I lost all SD format adjusting from the TV.
At one point I "pulled" a SD program into my computer through the 1394. When I used some editing software the image was 520 x 480 MPEG-2. OK crappy cable.
Enter the HR-20. Same "narrow" SD programing. With no 1394 output, I can't get a digital transfer to count the pixels. I do use the HDMI to my new Sony 46" LCD flat panel XBR2. The HR-20 does any de-interlacing, but I use the TV for scaling [native on, 480p, 720p, & 1080i]. Digital SAT signal, digital connection, digital display.
One "wish" & one "problem": the wish would be for the HR-20 to de-interlace the 1080i & the problem is the HR-20 "clamps" an SD signal in the horizontal. I can change my TV settings and have the vertical change but for the horizontal, it will only reduce a "normal" image [squish] since for it to show correctly the TV needs to be set to full [or wide].
We are at a point with HD where more & more programs are recorded in 16:9 format whether aired on HD or SD channels.
A 16:9 image on a SD channel is just about the worst of all combinations. If I could use my TV as it was made, I could fill the screen, but currently I can't, unless I leave all of the scaling to the HR-20 & even then I would need to change it every time I changed from: 1080i, 720p, & 480 i/p. Does D* expect me to memorize every channel's format so I can have each one look as it was meant to.
Wasn't this the reason for the "feature" of native?
So D* what can you do for us customers?


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm starting to think that you guys might be able to get some traction. Keep posting, get all your friends to take the survey, once it's up. After a day to think it through, _you guys are right_. This is how it _should _work! If the Sony owners can benefit, you may be able to get critical mass, as there are plenty of those TV's in the field.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

As a Sony owner I can say that I would definitely benefit from this change 

Might be a bit of a shock after the compromise setup I've become so accustomed to (aka TV Wide Zoom w/ HR20 Stretch that trims a few things but makes SD look better)

Maybe it's a simple change and D* will just do it.... Wouldn't that be awesome.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Okay. I came home and started playing.

Let's start by explaining that I am connected via component, not HDMI.

Turned all modes on and turned on native. Also made my sidebars gray so I could see them.

Tuned to an SD station (local ABC). The TV says that it is receiving 4:3 480i signal. Well, that sounds right. Not 16:9 but 4:3. So, there is no way that the HR20 is adding side stuff to stretch the signal to 16:9 but still not proof that it is pure native. Just that it is sending a 4:3 picture and 480i as expected for native mode.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. If the HR20 was in pillar box mode, the picture was shrunk horizontally and a slight gray pillar showed up. And everyone looked like they just finished the Nicole Richie diet. If I told the HR20 to crop, it zoomed in on the picture as expected. What was counterintuitive was that when I told it to stretch, it filled the 4:3 screen perfectly. In all cases, the TV said it was receiving 4:3 480i.

Now, this confused me. "Stretch" to me would mean it would stretch the 4:3 picture to fill a 16:9 screen. But it doesn't do that. And Pillar Box in this mode should mean absolutely nothing, but it does. Crop seemed to work as expected but it cropped to a 4:3 screen not a 16:9! So, it was thin people. (Realize that the HR20 still thinks it is delivering to a 16:9 television....I did not change that.

Now, to my TV. It is a Sony 50 inch SXRD XBR1. It has for 4:3 Normal, Wide Zoom (hybrid between zoom and stretching), Full and Zoom modes. They all worked as expected (some modes only work on 4:3 not on 16:9) on whatever the HR20 was putting out. So, if the HR20 was in Pillar Box mode, I got bars on the sides. If it was in stretch, it filled appopriately.

So, what does this mean? I think there is some conditioning going on. I doubt any are truly pass-thru but what does that really mean on a signal that is decoded and reproduced anyway.

The names are what is confusing. I decided that Pillar Box means we are going to put Pillar Boxes in, damn it, no matter what. It makes skinny people.

Crop means we are going to zoom in on the picture. But based on the pillar boxed picture, not the regular picture.

Stretch means to stretch to fill the screen. In this case, since it is 480i which is 4:3 by definition, it is "filling" a 4:3 screen.

So, to Agrajag's original question....If you put the HR20 in native and stretch mode, your TV will probably do what you want it to do. Is it truly "native?" I don't think so, but it is 480i so it stinks anyway.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Tony, I already know what my Pioneer is seeing. I can see it. It's seeing 16:9 with ANYTHING the HR20 is sending because the HR20 is incapable of sending a plan 4:3 signal at this point. On the plus side it's not as bad as the HR10-250 which not only sent just 16:9 but also only 480p and up. At least now I can access my TV's controls to handle the SD formatting. The problem is that there's nothing sent by the HR20 that's worth bothering to format as it's already pre-rendered with junk I don't want.

VOS, bingo! Native should mean Native from one end of the display spectrum to the other. Someone in the project goofed or took a path for a reason unknown to us that broke this concept in two.

Cygnus, the hardest damned part about his is the same kick-back I got initially. EVERYONE thinks there's no other possible solution. I can go anywhere and bring this up and 9 out of 10 people will default to the, "That's just the way it is and that's how it's supposed to work" reply. Having to go through the education process on this makes it that much harder to get critical mass. heheheh

Lewis, if DirecTV did this quickly I'd be shocked. I've been yelling about it since before the HR10-250 shipped when I found out it wouldn't have this feature at all. My fear is DirecTV's main body of engineers assumes they've already dealt with this feature. However, I've also been able to reach the right people from time to time and see these things happen quickly once in a blue moon. In this case I don't know anyone at DirecTV so I'm hoping Earl does and has reached the right people with it. If I knew who to talk to I think you'd know they'd get an entire presentation from me on why this is important. <grin> Obviously that's why they don't want to hear directly from me.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Tony, I'll go and check what you did as well. My setup is with HDMI but I could easily switch to component to see if it acts differently. When I do pillar box people look normal. I keep wondering if you say people look thin because you're used to seeing them looking fat from Stretch modes. <grin> Pillar box is supposed to present the correct 4:3 image with the dead space filled with bars. If they're looking too thin, something isn't right there.

FYI, stretch has always filled my screen, it just fills it with fat people.

Boy this will give us all a headache.

What would really be great is if DirecTV could tell us if Stretch is supposedly to magically work that way or not. I have some difficulty believing that Stretch mode has this magic code in it that says, "If Native=Off then equal horizontal stretch applied, If Native=On then send just native signal". Know what I mean? Seems like.... a stretch, oh boy.


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## MarkJones (Jul 17, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> Now, this is where it gets interesting. If the HR20 was in pillar box mode, the picture was shrunk horizontally and a slight gray pillar showed up. And everyone looked like they just finished the Nicole Richie diet. If I told the HR20 to crop, it zoomed in on the picture as expected. What was counterintuitive was that when I told it to stretch, it filled the 4:3 screen perfectly. In all cases, the TV said it was receiving 4:3 480i.


Exactly as it happens with my setup. With Native ON I have to set the HR20 to Stretch for 480 to look like it should. Strange, but true.

Could it be that with the Pillar bar setting both the HR20 and the TV are adding pillar bars so the picture looks squeezed?


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Mark, Tony, All,

I just got this from the DirecTV forums from someone listed as a source at DirecTV:

"Set the 480i format to stretch. That will cause 480i programming to display a full screen in native mode. Then the TV's aspect controls can be used to show the stretched picture in full screen, display a weighted, graduated picture meant to look a little better by not stretching the center as much as the sides, or add pillars itself. Adjust the TVs contrast to something less than the typical stock torch mode and it won't burn in. A DVD such as Digital Video Essentials or Avia is very useful to get a better, safer picture setting. "

Could it be Tony nailed it and this Stretch mode has dual purposes? I'm going to go check it now. Could be the answer. If so, it's the most unknown feature of the device right now. <grin> Hope springs eternal.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> Tony, I already know what my Pioneer is seeing. I can see it. It's seeing 16:9 with ANYTHING the HR20 is sending because the HR20 is incapable of sending a plan 4:3 signal at this point. On the plus side it's not as bad as the HR10-250 which not only sent just 16:9 but also only 480p and up. At least now I can access my TV's controls to handle the SD formatting. The problem is that there's nothing sent by the HR20 that's worth bothering to format as it's already pre-rendered with junk I don't want.
> 
> VOS, bingo! Native should mean Native from one end of the display spectrum to the other. Someone in the project goofed or took a path for a reason unknown to us that broke this concept in two.
> 
> ...


Believe me when I say I was totally joking about them doing it quickly. I might keel over if they did anything about this in less than year... :grin:


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Lewis, guess what, they did it.

It's working just like the post above and as Tony found. I never even bothered to try that combination because of the definition of "Stretch". So, I turned on Native and set Stretch and changed to CNN and suddenly on came fat people. NOOOOOO.

So then I did a check and realized I last left the TV in FULL mode (their name for typical stretch). I hit the MODE button and 4:3 Normal came up and it was the standard 4:3 with NO pillar bars from the HR20. It just had the perfect bars from the Pioneer. It was right then I knew I was set. I hit it again and Natural Wide came up and was perfect. 

We have got to get this documented.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> Lewis, guess what, they did it.
> 
> It's working just like the post above and as Tony found. I never even bothered to try that combination because of the definition of "Stretch". So, I turned on Native and set Stretch and changed to CNN and suddenly on came fat people. NOOOOOO.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I don't believe that I am seeing this behavior. I'll have to test it out. My connection is via HDMI though so that could be a difference. Maybe I need to go back to component...


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm using HDMI too. Never got the chance to try component. If you're not seeing it we must have something else off. The big difference I noticed too was that with those two settings the HR20 resolution LED went from 1080i to 480i and it wasn't doing that before.

Does yours?


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Lewis, guess what, they did it.
> 
> It's working just like the post above and as Tony found. I never even bothered to try that combination because of the definition of "Stretch". So, I turned on Native and set Stretch and changed to CNN and suddenly on came fat people. NOOOOOO.
> 
> ...


I finally was able to see the pillar bars this evening after playing around with my set. I had it set to display "full" "auto wide". This automatically covered the pillars and displayed a true 4:3 picture. If I over road the "full" and set it to "normal" I had pillar bars with skinny people. I think I now understand what you were encountering, my set masked it and I wasn't aware. I apologize for not fully understanding your frustration. It now sounds as though you have a simple work around. With the LCD I do not have a choice for side bar colors, just black emptiness. I leave native on, with HDMI.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> I keep wondering if you say people look thin because you're used to seeing them looking fat from Stretch modes. <grin>


I know you are joking but if you knew me you'd know how much I hate stretching pictures. I am an OAR type of guy big time (the only leeway I will give is on simple sketch cartoons...like the Simpsons or South Park but only then occasionally).

In fact, I am helping you because you asked for help. I don't stretch in any mode. (I will use zoom on SD material that is letterboxed like Eureka.)
[/quote]



Agrajag said:


> It's working just like the post above and as Tony found. I never even bothered to try that combination because of the definition of "Stretch".


I am paid to try combinations and find reasons for things and document behavior. I just came home in "work mode" on this one. Taking nothing for granted....including oddly named features.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Update: Yes. I hooked up HDMI and it was only doing 16:9 output.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

So...on the HR-20 "stretch" is "normal" with side bars [as we can't call them what they look like.."pillar"].
So: What the hell is pillarbox for?  
Why would the names have so correlation to what we would see with "the Display set to normal"?
This is just plain wrong. Why?
Simple with native "ON" it should work as it does with native OFF. period.
What happens on my Sony with a 4:3 program:
Native off: stretch does just that. Pillarbox does that. Crop does just that.
Native on: stretch gives the same as pillarbox [above]. Pillarbox squishes it horribly. Crop is no wider than stretch and chops off the top & bottom.
What should happen with native ON is: pillarbox, stretch, crop would work just like with native off.
Now if I could get the HR-20 with native on, in stretch [and my TV set to normal], to give me the same size image as when my TV is set to full [and my HR-20 set to stretch].
What looks "normal" to me is TV set to FULL & the HR-20 set pillarbox. This only will allow the HR-20 to change image size.
Have I confused everyone as much as I am now?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> So...on the HR-20 "stretch" is "normal" with side bars [as we can't call them what they look like.."pillar"].
> So: What the hell is pillarbox for?
> Why would the names have so correlation to what we would see with "the Display set to normal"?
> This is just plain wrong. Why?
> ...


Now, my code-writing hat on....they messed up. This is a bug. They are matching by percentage to the output screen rather than to the display screen. The display is still 16:9 but the output (working space) changes from 16:9 to 4:3 if you are in native mode on a 480i signal in component video. Since the output screen (working area, so to speak) is still 16:9 in HDMI (since the output is still 16:9 even in 480i mode, which is plain wrong), the functions work "correctly" in HDMI but the output is wrong (not 4:3).

I would think that it is a simple fix. They probably are accessing the wrong variable or using the wrong function to get the status of the current screen space while they should be using the variable/function call that says "what is the TV format."

BTW, great thread!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

This is what makes this forum so great. I know what I can do [as a test tech] and someone else can do what they "do". Collectively the group comes up the "the answer". I don't have a "code writing hat", but can "see" what you're saying.


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## drjjr (Jan 31, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> Lewis, guess what, they did it.
> 
> It's working just like the post above and as Tony found. I never even bothered to try that combination because of the definition of "Stretch". So, I turned on Native and set Stretch and changed to CNN and suddenly on came fat people. NOOOOOO.


Holy moly...it does work...I never considered "stretch" either because I was thinking that I want the TV to do the natural wide thing, not have the HR20 stretch anything.
Now I have to decide if I like the gyrations the set goes through switching from 1080i to 480i.

Nice find.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> So...on the HR-20 "stretch" is "normal" with side bars [as we can't call them what they look like.."pillar"].
> So: What the hell is pillarbox for?
> Why would the names have so correlation to what we would see with "the Display set to normal"?
> This is just plain wrong. Why?
> ...


VOS, I can see no reason for the Bravia set to even have a "normal" mode. When would it ever be used?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

davring said:


> VOS, I can see no reason for the Bravia set to even have a "normal" mode. When would it ever be used?


I would use it "if" the HR-20 would work right for: a "normal" 4:3 program that I didn't want distorted. If it was in letterbox then I would pick zoom to fill the screen.
SD blown up/stretched is just worse SD [which is bad enough] on a 46" screen.
I like a sharp image SD or HD. A 1080 display give me that, IF I don't try to take a postage stamp image and blow it up to some abnormal size.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

If the HR20 is set to pillarbox on SD signal and the Bravia is set to "full" I end up with a perfect 4:3 image. No bars or stretching. How or why it works I don't know, but looks good. I retired a 32" Proscan CRT and my 40" Sony LCD strangely enough displays a 4:3 SD image exactly 32" diagonaly.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

davring said:


> If the HR20 is set to pillarbox on SD signal and the Bravia is set to "full" I end up with a perfect 4:3 image. No bars or stretching..


I agree with your settings. What you do to zoom a letterbox [SD] program?
While I like the same setting, I measured mind tonight & found it wasn't a "true" 4:3 image. With the Sony set to normal & the HR-20 set to stretch, the image is not as wide [by 2"] but the aspect ratio is 4:3 and not 4+:3. FWIW


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I agree with your settings. What you do to zoom a letterbox [SD] program?
> While I like the same setting, I measured mind tonight & found it wasn't a "true" 4:3 image. With the Sony set to normal & the HR-20 set to stretch, the image is not as wide [by 2"] but the aspect ratio is 4:3 and not 4+:3. FWIW


It does not seem to make much difference if I "crop" with the HR20 or zoom with the TV. Both look about the same. If the letterbox is not to severe I don't bother to enlarge it at all. I do usually prefer to watch close to what is the "native" size. Our local ABC station broadcast ABC evening new is 720p 4:3, I sometimes zoom it because the quality is good. Other wise the set adjusts itself quite well most of the time with autowide turned on. Excellent sets!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

davring said:


> It does not seem to make much difference if I "crop" with the HR20 or zoom with the TV. Both look about the same. If the letterbox is not to severe I don't bother to enlarge it at all. I do usually prefer to watch close to what is the "native" size. Our local ABC station broadcast ABC evening new is 720p 4:3, I sometimes zoom it because the quality is good. Other wise the set adjusts itself quite well most of the time with autowide turned on. Excellent sets!


Expensive, but great picture.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Tony, I too was a QA professional for many years so I usually have the same tenacity you have. My problem lately is that I've just had no time to really dig like I used to so my hat is off to you for the leg work here.

DRJJR, I thought about the slowness and I figure that they've been improving that speed already so they might just keep going. For me, I'm willing to hang in and wait an extra moment to get the picture I want. I haven't seen my TV look this good for SD for at least a year or more (when the HD-TiVo got put in).

I can't buy that Stretch is supposed to work this way. It's just way too confused. My luck will be that they'll agree and remove this code and not put it anywhere else. <grin>

VOS, that's why I'm so taken with my Natural Wide feature. SD is bad enough on this 64" screen. With Crop/Zoom it's just BIGGER. With "Stretch/Full" It's just stretched and really odd. With Pillar Box I have to worry about burn-in. With Natural Wide most of the image is left alone and that's at the center and that's where you most look so it looks as I expect. The extra stretch on the edges I almost never notice because you rarely look there. Add to this that Pioneer does it right and it's just a nice option.

Now I'm heading off to a new thread to find out why "My Name Is Earl" recorded tonight as a Repeat when I have the show set to First Run. Do you think I can fix that will the Crop option? <grin>


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## drjjr (Jan 31, 2007)

Agrajag said:


> DRJJR, I thought about the slowness and I figure that they've been improving that speed already so they might just keep going. For me, I'm willing to hang in and wait an extra moment to get the picture I want. I haven't seen my TV look this good for SD for at least a year or more (when the HD-TiVo got put in).


I'm with you. The delay I'm taking about is the set itself going through the motions to get back to 1080i from 480i. It's almost 6 years old, so it's an antique as far as HD sets go. I'll leave it with these new settings and see if I find myself not avoiding the SD channels as much.

And the DBSTalk subscription pays for itself already!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

To further the point:
When using: native "on", pillarbox, and the TV set to full; the menus & the guide look "normal" as they have on every STB I've ever used. The guide is full screen.

When using native "on", stretch, and the TV set to normal; all of the menus & the guide are "squished". The guide only fills the 4:3 part of the display. even though the HR-20 is set for a 16:9 display.

Changing from native pillarbox, to native stretch may be a "work around", but it's not the "fix" the HR-20 needs.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

One habit I'm trying to break is that I started going directly to channel 70 whenever I'd turn on the TV. Now I'm trying to just hit Guide. The reason is for the above issue. The odds are still high that I'm likely to end up on an SD show so if I'm already on an SD show, there's no reason to add the delay of bouncing to HD and then back to SD.

Before this was instant so it didn't matter.

Here's hoping that DirecTV reads that and it adds to the fire of this needing to get addressed. When you change something like this habit due to a bottleneck with a product, that's pretty significant.

On a funny note, I had such a blast enjoying the TV last night that I stayed up too late and overslept today. How's that for "boys and their toys" syndrome?

VOS, I again have to question the use of the word, "squished" there. My understanding of it is that the guide in that case is being displayed EXACTLY as it would display on a 4:3 TV. As this mode is sending out just 4:3 signal it may not have the ability to send the guide any other way. I would THINK that the signal stream and the guide could follow two different paths as the box knows I have a 16:9 set but that does strike me as a slightly complex issue. Follow what I'm getting at? When I view the guide the way I have it (Native On, Format Stretch) it fills the screen only because the Pioneer is stretching it to fill the screen. It has the same effect to it that shows do. In other words it's being stretched the same way. The HR20 isn't sending it ot the TV already stretched.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> VOS, I again have to question the use of the word, "squished" there. My understanding of it is that the guide in that case is being displayed EXACTLY as it would display on a 4:3 TV. As this mode is sending out just 4:3 signal it may not have the ability to send the guide any other way. I would THINK that the signal stream and the guide could follow two different paths as the box knows I have a 16:9 set but that does strike me as a slightly complex issue. Follow what I'm getting at? When I view the guide the way I have it (Native On, Format Stretch) it fills the screen only because the Pioneer is stretching it to fill the screen. It has the same effect to it that shows do. In other words it's being stretched the same way. The HR20 isn't sending it ot the TV already stretched.


Same thing here: if my TV is set to "full" the guide/menus look correct, but the program is full screen also. Understand that I don't have a CRT based TV & don't like distorted images, so for SD programing, I use "normal" & zoom for letterbox programs. I don't mind "black bars" as they won't burn in/out this TV as they did my last [HD channel in 4:3 format which couldn't be changed period].
I want the HR-20 to de-interlace & my Sony to scale the image. And along the way I'd like to see the guide in something other than "a postage stamp".
AS it does with the HR-20 doing both: de-interlacing & scaling.


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## jcormack (Jan 19, 2007)

What every one needs to remember is the size & type of the TV you have in your HR20 set up. Regargless of Native "On" or "Off" the HR20 is sending a signal to fill your screen - ie based on wether you have a 16x9 or 4x3 TV - the pillar bars, or letter-box bars are inserted based on the siganl coming in 16x9 or 4x3 - the HR20 then sends the appropriate signal - to fill your screen. If you want your TV to do the formatting select only the stretch modes & change it on your TV. Perhaps D*TV could add a "variable stretch" as most TV's have that would make some folks happier.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

jcormack, something in that comment doesn't ring true to me.

If Native=On and Format=Stretch, the HR20 is not sending a signal to fill the screen. It's purposely refraining from doing that and limiting the signal to 4:3 no matter what (which is exactly what I wanted even though the way the HR20 does it makes little to no sense by using the Stretch option).

If I see gray bars on my TV it's provided by Pioneer (I have the bars set to black in the HR20). Thus what the TV is getting from the HR20 in this mode is not enough to fill the screen (as I see gray bars when the Pioneer stretch is set to "4:3 Normal" which is what you use to display straight 4:3 material with gray bars).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jcormack said:


> What every one needs to remember is the size & type of the TV you have in your HR20 set up. Regargless of Native "On" or "Off" the HR20 is sending a signal to fill your screen - ie based on wether you have a 16x9 or 4x3 TV - the pillar bars, or letter-box bars are inserted based on the siganl coming in 16x9 or 4x3 - the HR20 then sends the appropriate signal - to fill your screen. If you want your TV to do the formatting select only the stretch modes & change it on your TV. Perhaps D*TV could add a "variable stretch" as most TV's have that would make some folks happier.


Since I have set the HR-20 to my TV size of 16:9, it "knows" what I have.
Now if you would actually use the native on/off settings and then the pillarbox/stretch modes, you would then understand what this thread is all about.
"If you haven't been there" you [as I was] don't "understand".


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

I need to check the manual but I still can't believe that this feature is documented. If it is I'm going to be very surprised.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> I need to check the manual but I still can't believe that this feature is documented. If it is I'm going to be very surprised.


What "feature"? 
All I see is a work around to a problem that really doesn't "work" for the reasons posted.


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## MichaelP (Dec 5, 2006)

If y'all don't mind a complete n00b jumping in here, with not much to contribute....  

I've been following this thread with interest and I now understand why my brand new Samsung LNS3251D and HR20 won't let me really fill the screen with an SD picture the way I want it to look. I'm also not a fan of "fat people" and the "crop" feature bothers me because I know I'm missing some of the picture. 

I have the HR20 connected to a Sony A/V Receiver via HDMI to my TV via HDMI. According to the specs for the TV with HDMI the only resolution it supports is 1080i, so that is the only option I have selected for the HR20 to output. Also, with this connection the TV has two aspects: 16:9 and 4:3. None of the zoom aspects work. 

So I have Native=On, and Pillar Box selected on the HR20. With this config if I use 1080i Crop on a full screen SD picture I miss stuff, which annoys me. The only time this setting really works for me is if the image is letterboxed, then I don't miss any of the picture. 1080i Streatch simply isn't an option for me. 

So to get a "good" picture I would need to go to all component or S-Video connections. so the TV aspect settings would give me more options. Dang.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

MichaelP :welcome_s to the forum.
You can "always" jump in, the water may be either cold or hot, so you need to be prepared. :lol:


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

VOS, what I'm getting at is that, somewhere along the line, DirecTV engineers clearly decided to add code the way "Format = Stretch" works.

Stretch, in no other device or common use suggests that it would do anything other than stretch the picture. With "Native = On" this doesn't happen so it seems clear to me that someone somewhere decided this was a "good" way to resolve my particular issue.

Thus, for me, this is a feature.

I would argue that what you're asking for is a different thing that what the thread is about. Even though it's entirely a goofy way to provide the feature, the feature of passing true 4:3 signal when "Native = On" is there.

If I read what you're saying correctly, you're asking for something else entirely. You want a true 4:3 picture for the show content but NOT for the HR20 display items (like the Guide, the menus, etc.). If that's correct then I do understand your view. My problem is that what you want might not work for me.

Picture this. I have it set to "Native = On" and "Format = Stretch". This, amazingly and confusingly, allows me to get a pure 4:3 signal. I then have my TV stretch this image. While I use "Natural Wide" I could use a normal stretch, a crop, etc. If I do any stretching, I don't see any way the HR20 could send a 16:9 guide. It would be cut off with my settings. The only way I could see it happening is if the signal stream and the HR20 display items were on their own distinct "paths". 

But even then I'm not sure the TV would know what to do at that point. It's busy stretching the signal it's getting and then, on top of that, it's getting this 16:9 guide to display? How could it possibly display that without undoing the background TV signal? It would likely have to resort to bouncing the settings back and forth each time you hit Guide.


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## MichaelP (Dec 5, 2006)

Thanks, VOS. 

I've been lurking for a few months so I think I'm prepared for whatever comes my way. At least I'll try not to take it personally.  

I'm just trying to decide now if I want to waste my weekend playing with the new toys, and trying to get the "best" picture I can, or go outside and enjoy what is supposed to be a great weekend in NorCal.


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## jcormack (Jan 19, 2007)

With Native "ON" and on a SD channel the HR20 sends a picture that fills my screen at 16x9, it is a "stretched 4x3. I can then choose to set my TV to use its "4x3 stretch" format that is variable or Can let my tv do its pillar box, or I can leave it in full 16x9 stretched by the HR20 - I do this all the time if it is something I really want to watch in SD & prefer the way my TV stretches. Right now I am actually on Native "off" and am simply letting the HR20 do its pillar box thing (Gray bars) and on shows like BSG I use my TV's crop - as I like the faster speed of changing channels with Native off. But it is still the fact that your setting of 4x3 or 16x9 in the HR20 set-up and the various output formats are designed to "fill" that screen size. 480i refers to the nuber of interlaced vertical scan lines, I have made several DVD copies of movies, games, etc off ESPN & HDNet - these show are normal aspect when display on a 16x9 TV (in 16x9 mode) ...if I give one of these to my brother & he plays it on his 4x3 the images are out-of-kilter ie to tall & skinny. the DVD recorder sees the s-video signal as 480i 4x3. In fact my recorder says it can't do 16x9...........but I have at least 20 DVD's that display perfectly on my 16x9. Try watching a HD show in 480i & set your tv for 4x3 pillar box......


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> VOS, what I'm getting at is that, somewhere along the line, DirecTV engineers clearly decided to add code the way "Format = Stretch" works.
> Stretch, in no other device or common use suggests that it would do anything other than stretch the picture. With "Native = On" this doesn't happen so it seems clear to me that someone somewhere decided this was a "good" way to resolve my particular issue.
> Thus, for me, this is a feature.
> I would argue that what you're asking for is a different thing that what the thread is about. Even though it's entirely a goofy way to provide the feature, the feature of passing true 4:3 signal when "Native = On" is there.
> ...


I see you point [of view]. 1) if "stretch" was pillarbox for native on [as it is for native off], you TV's "feature" would work right?
Now if the guide came was distorted for you isn't there a button you could use?
I think it's wrong now for native on, as stretch doesn't work unless I "defeat" all of MY TV's features. 
I think while you like yours, it is "old tech" and my Sony is or will be the way more TVs work, so it should "work for me". I may be "off base" as I don't have "your TV", but do have a new type. There is apparently "no right answer for everyone". Sony praises their scaler & I'd like to use it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

MichaelP said:


> Thanks, VOS.
> 
> I've been lurking for a few months so I think I'm prepared for whatever comes my way. At least I'll try not to take it personally.
> 
> I'm just trying to decide now if I want to waste my weekend playing with the new toys, and trying to get the "best" picture I can, or go outside and enjoy what is supposed to be a great weekend in NorCal.


The weekend will pass, but the "toys" will always be there to play with...


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## jcormack (Jan 19, 2007)

I know how to use stretch, crop, pillar box, letter box, and the diff between 16x 9 settings and 4x3 settings.........I use and change these as I need......I know it knows what you have ....that is what I said. It sends a signal to fit the screen size you have put in the settings based on hte format you have sellected. I was responding the base premise of the early part of this thread, ie why does 480i have to be in "stretch" to use the TV's own "stretch"............no I do not have 3000 posts............I will quit posting .................Ta.....


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## MichaelP (Dec 5, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The weekend will pass, but the "toys" will always be there to play with...


True, very true.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jcormack said:


> With Native "ON" and on a SD channel the HR20 sends a picture that fills my screen at 16x9, it is a "stretched 4x3. I can then choose to set my TV to use its "4x3 stretch" format that is variable or Can let my tv do its pillar box, or I can leave it in full 16x9 stretched by the HR20 - I do this all the time if it is something I really want to watch in SD & prefer the way my TV stretches. Right now I am actually on Native "off" and am simply letting the HR20 do its pillar box thing (Gray bars) and on shows like BSG I use my TV's crop - as I like the faster speed of changing channels with Native off. But it is still the fact that your setting of 4x3 or 16x9 in the HR20 set-up and the various output formats are designed to "fill" that screen size. 480i refers to the nuber of interlaced vertical scan lines, I have made several DVD copies of movies, games, etc off ESPN & HDNet - these show are normal aspect when display on a 16x9 TV (in 16x9 mode) ...if I give one of these to my brother & he plays it on his 4x3 the images are out-of-kilter ie to tall & skinny. the DVD recorder sees the s-video signal as 480i 4x3. In fact my recorder says it can't do 16x9...........but I have at least 20 DVD's that display perfectly on my 16x9. Try watching a HD show in 480i & set your tv for 4x3 pillar box......


You're using native "off" right? It works like [as ] it should to me. What goes "crazy" is how all of this changes with native on. With native on I can still cycle through the pillarbox, stretch, or crop formats from the HR-20, but they only come close to working if I've set my TV to "full" so it doesn't do anything. 
So: Why can't the HR-20 have the same fuctions with the same settings and have me use my TV's setting for the format changes?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jcormack said:


> I know how to use stretch, crop, pillar box, letter box, and the diff between 16x 9 settings and 4x3 settings.........I use and change these as I need......I know it knows what you have ....that is what I said. It sends a signal to fit the screen size you have put in the settings based on hte format you have sellected. I was responding the base premise of the early part of this thread, ie why does 480i have to be in "stretch" to use the TV's own "stretch"............no I do not have 3000 posts............I will quit posting .................Ta.....


Please don't quit posting.
Through discussion, we all learn. If someone didn't start this thread I never would have looked into this.


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## jcormack (Jan 19, 2007)

I use both native on & native off, I presently use Off most of the time...if I want to use my TV's variable stretch then I choose when I switch to 480i via the format button....but if I force a change to 480i or the HR20 does it....it is still the same format. with 480i "stretch on a 16X9 TV & a second 4x3 tv hooked up to the s-video, what does the video look like on the 4x3 TV? (Normal) If you have 480i pillar set-up how does the 4x3 tv look? (terrible, strange bars on the side)


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

jcormack said:


> With Native "ON" and on a SD channel the HR20 sends a picture that fills my screen at 16x9, it is a "stretched 4x3.


I don't think that's correct. Think about it. If the HR20 is sending a stretched 4:3 signal that fills a 16:9 screen to the TV then how can the TV reverse that stretching to apply its own formatting? It can't. In this case if you're getting a stretched image sent to the TV then the best the TV can do is apply formatting to the STRETCHED image by stretching it more and so forth. It's not possible for the TV to revert the signal back to pre-processed states.



> But it is still the fact that your setting of 4x3 or 16x9 in the HR20 set-up and the various output formats are designed to "fill" that screen size.


Again, I don't believe this is accurate. Most of those modes are designed to fill the screen but this one special case of "Native = On", "Format = Stretch" and Display set to 16:9 does not send screen-filling signal. It sends just 4:3 data to a TV in 16:9 mode and lets the TV deal with it.

VOS, on your situation I'm not entirely clear and I think it's all the different manufacturers terms getting in the way.

I had a SONY XBR LCD (60") for several months before returning it (actually had two).

With Native On and Format set to Stretch, what are you seeing when you go to an SD channel? And what happens when you cycle through your Sony's formatting modes to that image?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jcormack said:


> I use both native on & native off, I presently use Off most of the time...if I want to use my TV's variable stretch then I choose when I switch to 480i via the format button....but if I force a change to 480i or the HR20 does it....it is still the same format. with 480i "stretch on a 16X9 TV & a second 4x3 tv hooked up to the s-video, what does the video look like on the 4x3 TV? (Normal) If you have 480i pillar set-up how does the 4x3 tv look? (terrible, strange bars on the side)


I understand the pillarbox & a 4:3 TV. it's bad.
Preface: this is an HD recorder, so it's primary function should be for HD displays. Using it for an 4:3 TV should also work. Using it for both a 16:9 & 4:3 simultaneously might be a bit harder, [and so a little farther down the list of "to do"] but might be possible.
I'm trying [wanting] it to function properly in it's primary role.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> VOS, on your situation I'm not entirely clear and I think it's all the different manufacturers terms getting in the way.
> I had a SONY XBR LCD (60") for several months before returning it (actually had two).
> With Native On and Format set to Stretch, what are you seeing when you go to an SD channel? And what happens when you cycle through your Sony's formatting modes to that image?


It "works" [normal 4:3 image] BUT>>>when in "normal" [Sony] the guide is a distorted postage stamp along with all of the menus of the HR-20. Changing to "full" on the Sony, returns all of the menus to their right size, but now has the SD [duh] is stretched, so it's back to pillarbox for a non-distorted image & defeats any of the scaling of the Sony,


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

VOS, Ah, okay, so if I understand that correctly, you would agree that the video image is correct at that point, right?

Look at the images below (sorry for the low quality, I did these FAST).

The first one is what I think you're saying you see. This is what I see when I have my TV stretch mode set to "4:3 Normal". The gray bars are generated in this shot by my Pioneer.

The second one is the same thing except that I've set my TV stretch mode to "Full" (which means equal stretch).

If this is what you're seeing then I'm arguing that this is correct behavior. The second Guide picture is not generated that way by the HR20. It's actually exactly as it appears in the first shot. It's the TV that's stretching it to fill the screen to make it appear that way.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> VOS, Ah, okay, so if I understand that correctly, you would agree that the video image is correct at that point, right?
> Look at the images below (sorry for the low quality, I did these FAST).
> The first one is what I think you're saying you see. This is what I see when I have my TV stretch mode set to "4:3 Normal". The gray bars are generated in this shot by my Pioneer.
> The second one is the same thing except that I've set my TV stretch mode to "Full" (which means equal stretch).
> If this is what you're seeing then I'm arguing that this is correct behavior. The second Guide picture is not generated that way by the HR20. It's actually exactly as it appears in the first shot. It's the TV that's stretching it to fill the screen to make it appear that way.


We are "in sync". In "real life" it looks worse [to me].
Now, if as you say "this is correct behavior", why isn't it the same with "native off"?
And again if native off is the "proper" setting, does D* "expect" me to memorize every channels resolution so I can then set it to the correct resolution and then format? 
Native "on" should work & there should be setting for the TV to scale the image AND show the menus "normally". I will accept if I'm in a "stretched" mode for SD that I might need to make an adjustment on my TV to accommodate this, since "I" have set the TV do make some adjustment to the image.
Maybe this is just a "chicken or the egg" thing. You like it the way it is & I don't since it doesn't "match" the other setting & format [with native off]. FWIW


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## drjjr (Jan 31, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> It "works" [normal 4:3 image] BUT>>>when in "normal" [Sony] the guide is a distorted postage stamp along with all of the menus of the HR-20. Changing to "full" on the Sony, returns all of the menus to their right size, but now has the SD [duh] is stretched, so it's back to pillarbox for a non-distorted image & defeats any of the scaling of the Sony,


During my (brief) experimenting last night with Native = On and Stretch, bringing up the guide when I was on an SD channel brought up the guide in my set's "Natural Wide" mode and it was slightly distorted, but totally readable. If the HR20 were really cool, it would switch to the highest mode you said your set supports when you want any of its UI (guide, play list, menu, etc) and then back to the previous mode or new mode for a new channel. I bet that would look like junk though as all of the mode switching occurs.

I'm just excited to get home and start watching SD again. It's almost like having a new TV all over again. :lol:


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## jcormack (Jan 19, 2007)

"If you haven't been there" you [as I was said:


> don't "understand".


Nope, I understand & I will still lurk here to gain info & news.
The point I was trying to make which did not get conveyed is that 480i stretch is normal 480i. Maybe it would be better if D*TV dropped the "stretch" from that format choice. 
It is simply 480i displayed on 16x9 display. Take any other 480i 4x3 input to your TV and, as your TV is at 16x9 (as you would have it on your HR20) then it will be exactly the "Stretch" that your see with the HR20 in 480i at 16x9 - a 4x3 linearly expaned horizontally.... you may then decide if you want to use your TV's various formats to display it, in the mode you prefer.......this will work in the HR20 in Native On with a SD source and you select 480i stretch. In Native off you would manually have to switch this.
It really is as simple as the HR20 trying to fit the video onto the screen size you have selected in the format you have selected. 480i stretch is normal 4x3 480i signal .....if you take that signal via component, s-video, whatever, to a 4x3 TV...it will be a normal 4x3 picture


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

DRJJR, see my post where I admitted that I actually had such a blast watching TV that I was up WAY too late and overslept this morning. 

I think your view is also dead on. Yes, I think DirecTV could provide menus in any resolution but then it would require all that switching and that would be messy.

jcormack, yes, we agree on the Stretch thing. It makes NO sense the way it's worded. I'll take it as without it I'm hosed entirely again. However, Stretch does work as you'd expect with Native set to Off which is why it's there. Why they chose to add this other functionality to it is a complete confusing mystery.

My view:

When I set Native On one of the following should happen:

1) The Format option goes to gray and you can't select anything in it. It makes no sense at that point. Native is native. No format setting necessary.

2) If you want features of Format still available, add a new entry and call it something like "None", "Native", "Off", "Normal" or something like that to convey the concept.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

jcormack said:


> It is simply 480i displayed on 16x9 display. Take any other 480i 4x3 input to your TV and, as your TV is at 16x9 (as you would have it on your HR20) then it will be exactly the "Stretch" that your see with the HR20 in 480i at 16x9 - a 4x3 linearly expaned horizontally.... you may then decide if you want to use your TV's various formats to display it, in the mode you prefer.......this will work in the HR20 in Native On with a SD source and you select 480i stretch. In Native off you would manually have to switch this.
> It really is as simple as the HR20 trying to fit the video onto the screen size you have selected in the format you have selected. 480i stretch is normal 4x3 480i signal .....if you take that signal via component, s-video, whatever, to a 4x3 TV...it will be a normal 4x3 picture


You have completely lost me. If I put a 4:3 480i source (like s-video or even a source via component video) on a 16:9 set, it is not stretched by default. It will be centered on the screen.

If I am reading you right, your premise is that all 4:3 is stretched on widescreen TVs? If your TV is doing that to 4:3 480i images, then either your TV is poorly designed for SD or you have a setting wrong.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> When I set Native On one of the following should happen:
> 
> 1) The Format option goes to gray and you can't select anything in it. It makes no sense at that point. Native is native. No format setting necessary.
> 
> 2) If you want features of Format still available, add a new entry and call it something like "None", "Native", "Off", "Normal" or something like that to convey the concept.


I have not problem with your proposal(s). I can understand being able to stretch in native mode. You are taking native to mean 100% pass-thru but I think conventionally, native winds up meaning that the resolution is correct. (My SA8300 also has native mode but you can still zoom.)

So I guess I would believe in the second better. As for the options, just make it that Normal just leaves the zooming or stretching off and you can stretch or zoom optionally.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jcormack said:


> Nope, I understand & I will still lurk here to gain info & news.
> The point I was trying to make which did not get conveyed is that 480i stretch is normal 480i. Maybe it would be better if D*TV dropped the "stretch" from that format choice.
> It is simply 480i displayed on 16x9 display. Take any other 480i 4x3 input to your TV and, as your TV is at 16x9 (as you would have it on your HR20) then it will be exactly the "Stretch" that your see with the HR20 in 480i at 16x9 - a 4x3 linearly expaned horizontally.... you may then decide if you want to use your TV's various formats to display it, in the mode you prefer.......this will work in the HR20 in Native On with a SD source and you select 480i stretch. In Native off you would manually have to switch this.
> It really is as simple as the HR20 trying to fit the video onto the screen size you have selected in the format you have selected. 480i stretch is normal 4x3 480i signal .....if you take that signal via component, s-video, whatever, to a 4x3 TV...it will be a normal 4x3 picture


This is a bit like a game cube or something [many ways to look at the same thing], as I DO see you point. I'm not sure I agree, but then I'm still working through all of this from everybody's view [or how else can I learn].
My problem: "normal" 4:3 shouldn't be stretched. A DVD can display "480" as 720 x 480. I don't think the TV needs to be set to a stretch mode to display this. Why then would "stretch" from the HR-20 be "normal" for a 4:3? It seems to me that: normal [pillarbox] would be 640 x 480 and stretched would be 720 x 480. This is what happens with native off. So why would everything change for native on? What is it that I'm "missing"? Why is native "on" stretched, a 640 x 480 image?


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

VOS, we need a term to refer to Native = On and Format = Stretch. I'll call it NOFS for now. Maybe it'll stick. <grin>

So, do you agree that with NOFS 4:3 material isn't stretched? For me it's not as you can see from the first shot.

The use of the word "stretch" is confusing here again.

Pillar box is normal 4:3 with bars added to the sides and sent out as 16:9 in whatever resolution is required.

Why is NOFS 4:3 image? Because someone at DirecTV wanted to cover my case but didn't know where to add the code for it maybe so they stuck it in a confusing goofy place?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> VOS, we need a term to refer to Native = On and Format = Stretch.


I would use a term already around: goofed, screwed up, etc.
Under "pillarbox": black, gray, none.
Native "on": stretch [wide], pillarbox [normal], crop. [as you can still select all of these with native on now just, in only one resolution].


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## jcormack (Jan 19, 2007)

It will be be centered if your display format is set for 4x3 and you will have pillar boxes on the side, yes ....in 4x3 mode. But If you select 16x9 it will fill the 16x9 screen exactly as the HR20 is doing by stretching horizontally- no, my TV is not faulty. Many TV's have a 4x3 "expanded", or a 4x3 "stretch", or 4x3 "wide" - whatever the term, that does a "progressive" stretch that leaves the middle alone and does more "stretch" of the edges........many prefer that as it does not make the center "fat" but a 4x3 signal displayed on a straight 16x9 on many TV's looks exactly like the "480i stretch" format from the HR20 to a 16x9 display. I have seen this in so many houses where they say "this HD is horrible !" it is is laughable. I put in Industrial Graphic HMI interfaces as a part of my job.....I have places where the RSView, Citect, or Wonderware screens are running on both 16x9 large displays and 4x3 touchscreens.....We often have custom screens that are designed for the various formats (16x9 or 4x3), but we often display one on the "wrong" format screen.....& then I get the "why does this vessel look skinny over here, or why is that tank fat on this display". It is possible that your TV by default centers a 480i signal even though the display is set at 16x9......many do not....If I have a 4x3 signal coming in, and I have my TV at 16x9 it fills the screen, I can select 4x3 expanded or normal 4x3 (with pillar bars), but 16x9, she fills the screen.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jcormack said:


> It will be be centered if your display format is set for 4x3 and you will have pillar boxes on the side, yes ....in 4x3 mode. But If you select 16x9 it will fill the 16x9 screen exactly as the HR20 is doing by stretching horizontally- no, my TV is not faulty. Many TV's have a 4x3 "expanded", or a 4x3 "stretch", or 4x3 "wide" - whatever the term, that does a "progressive" stretch that leaves the middle alone and does more "stretch" of the edges........many prefer that as it does not make the center "fat" but a 4x3 signal displayed on a straight 16x9 on many TV's looks exactly like the "480i stretch" format from the HR20 to a 16x9 display. I have seen this in so many houses where they say "this HD is horrible !" it is is laughable. I put in Industrial Graphic HMI interfaces as a part of my job.....I have places where the RSView, Citect, or Wonderware screens are running on both 16x9 large displays and 4x3 touchscreens.....We often have custom screens that are designed for the various formats (16x9 or 4x3), but we often display one on the "wrong" format screen.....& then I get the "why does this vessel look skinny over here, or why is that tank fat on this display". It is possible that your TV by default centers a 480i signal even though the display is set at 16x9......many do not....If I have a 4x3 signal coming in, and I have my TV at 16x9 it fills the screen, I can select 4x3 expanded or normal 4x3 (with pillar bars), but 16x9, she fills the screen.


It's very "clear" that you have a great "grasp" of the subject.
I understand the "variable" stretch mode of some displays.
Since the TV will show a centered 4:3 on a 16:9 screen, why not have the "option" in native "on" to have no pillarbox color bars added to the signal? It would be displayed in what ever setting the user selected on the display. And to go further, if the display had a default setting option, then it would always display it in this format.
I don't see why the HR-20 needs to be set to stretch to show a non stretched image, and if set to pillarbox it becomes even narrower [yes, currently there are color bars added so this is why, but removing them would solve this].
And the "plus" of doing it this way would be the standardization of formats between native "on & off".


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi again guys.

I think jcormack is hitting the nail on the head as to what is going on.



jcormack said:


> ...480i stretch is normal 480i...
> 
> It is simply 480i displayed on 16x9 display...


And as was the case 150 posts back, :lol: we are again having some semantic issues. Not just between ourselves, but also between us, and the HR20. So, I am going to try to articulate what I think is going on.

You have to buy into the "Lines of Video" model to understand whats going on, not pixels, as in 640x480, but 480 interlaced lines of video, _with no intrinsic width._ <<edit

================================

So, you say:
You: "Hey, HR20! Send 480 interlaced lines of video to the TV!"

HR20: "Ok, Boss, I can do that."

<<<_HR20 thinks to itself_: "Let me see, where did I put that format setting. Ah, here it is! FORMAT=STRETCH, got it! Ok, this is the easy one where I do nothing except send the TV 480 interlaced lines of video. It's much easier than that "pillar" format. When I do _that _one, I gotta append black onto the beginning and the end of each line I send. Oh yeah, sometimes I gotta use gray for those snooty plasma TVs (so, so hard being me). I wonder why my engineers called it stretch, I don't stretch anything, I just send the 480 lines of video of whatever crappy show the Boss is watching. Not my problem, _I'll just let the TV worry about it. 'Stretch', silly engineers"_>>>

HR20: "Hey, TV! Here's 480 interlaced lines of video for ya!"

TV: "Hi HR... 480i, you said? OK, 480i it is, then.

<<<_TV thinks to itself_: "OK, 480i, I know what to do with that. Oh good! HR's not sending the kind that has black bits on the front and back of each line. I don't like it when he does that, it _buurrrrnns.... _ Alright, then, what mode was I in again? Oh, yes, I remember it's the one that says: {{{Insert the mode description of whatever your TV calls _draw each line edge to edge, don't do anything else fancy_.}}} Ahhhh... this mode feels good. The Boss doesn't really like it, though, he's always squawking something about 'short & fat'. He usually likes it when I do that 'natural wide' thing where I stretch the beginning and end of each line to make them longer, while being careful not to mess with the middle of the line. It's a little more work for me, but it feels pretty good too. I don't mind, it's all about keeping the Boss happy. Sometimes he wants me to put gray at the ends of each line, which I don't mind either. I would much prefer to do it for the Boss myself than have HR do it, anyway. It doesn't feel quite as nice as that natural wide mode, but if it's what the Boss wants, then I can be brave.">>>

================================

Maybe that will help some people see it, anyway.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

While this was nice, entertaining, etc.
What it all comes down to: THE GUIDE
Without those "funny things" added the guide has no place to stretch out. BUT if you tell it that you want it stretched well hell I know where to put myself then. With out the silly extra bars in my setup, I can't know what to do for a "pillarbox". Screw you is what I say, and use ME for all of that stuff and I'LL do everything just fine as my makers set me up to. Now if you want to go native, you'd better tell me that I'm to stretch cause that's what you'd better be doing with your TV or I'm not going to look like you want me to, and it ain't going to be MY FAULT. DO hear me, NOT MY FAULT.
Or so I think is how it works.
If you don't like it then how many buttons can you play with to make it any way you want it. IT'S NOT MY FAULT. Get it. period. end of report. I didn't do it. You did! :lol: :lol:


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> What it all comes down to: THE GUIDE


I _totally_, _completely_, 100% understand... I think.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

So just to drive a stake through the heart of this once and for all:
Native 480i is native.
*Native is* in reference to *resolution* and *not format*.
With native "on" you format options still work. With native off: your options also cycle through the resolutions too.
If you want to stretch the format you select it, on either or both as needed.
Same for zoom, crop or what ever. It's simple. 
So what's the big deal? 
Oh yeah, the answer to the thread's question is: *Yes it is*.

Is it dead now?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

jcormack said:


> It will be be centered if your display format is set for 4x3 and you will have pillar boxes on the side, yes ....in 4x3 mode. But If you select 16x9 it will fill the 16x9 screen exactly as the HR20 is doing by stretching horizontally- no, my TV is not faulty. Many TV's have a 4x3 "expanded", or a 4x3 "stretch", or 4x3 "wide" - whatever the term, that does a "progressive" stretch that leaves the middle alone and does more "stretch" of the edges........many prefer that as it does not make the center "fat" but a 4x3 signal displayed on a straight 16x9 on many TV's looks exactly like the "480i stretch" format from the HR20 to a 16x9 display. I have seen this in so many houses where they say "this HD is horrible !" it is is laughable. I put in Industrial Graphic HMI interfaces as a part of my job.....I have places where the RSView, Citect, or Wonderware screens are running on both 16x9 large displays and 4x3 touchscreens.....We often have custom screens that are designed for the various formats (16x9 or 4x3), but we often display one on the "wrong" format screen.....& then I get the "why does this vessel look skinny over here, or why is that tank fat on this display". It is possible that your TV by default centers a 480i signal even though the display is set at 16x9......many do not....If I have a 4x3 signal coming in, and I have my TV at 16x9 it fills the screen, I can select 4x3 expanded or normal 4x3 (with pillar bars), but 16x9, she fills the screen.


No, no, no.

You are talking in circles (and with no extra paragraph breaks, your posts are very hard to read).

Any TV that cannot non-stretch a 4:3 picture should be thrown in the trash. I don't care if it is default or not.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> So just to drive a stake through the heart of this once and for all:
> Native 480i is native.
> *Native is* in reference to *resolution* and *not format*.
> With native "on" you format options still work. With native off: your options also cycle through the resolutions too.
> ...


It is still broken, though. Well, the naming convention and what it does for the different formats is broken and should be fixed.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> It is still broken, though. Well, the naming convention and what it does for the different formats is broken and should be fixed.


Well it sure isn't "user friendly", but once I "understood" what the "issues" were...
The guide is what is driving the whole thing. Without native everything stays in the HR-20 & therefore makes "sense". When adding the TV into the mix [native on], the guide could/does have "issues". 
Not that it's "right" but: you select "stretch" because you will be using that function on your TV. If you don't the guide looks like crap. 
So what should "we" call the format settings for native on, given that the guide is still driving the bus?
Intuitive it isn't, unless you realize it is only the resolution that is "native" and not the format.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> The guide is what is driving the whole thing. Without native everything stays in the HR-20 & therefore makes "sense". When adding the TV into the mix [native on], the guide could/does have "issues".


VOS, let me see if I can state your "key" issue:

When watching a SD program (non-letter boxed), you want to watch it with pillars. But, you want to use the pillars that the TV generates. With the HR20 set to "stretch" (more on the bad name in a sec), and your TV generating the pillar bars, everything is fine, until you press guide. Then, of course, the guide is thin because the d*mn TV is generating pillar bars. What you want is, of course, for the guide to fill the whole d*mn screen.

Question: When you are set up as described above, what happens when you change channel to an HD channel? Here's what happens with my TV: My TV removes the pillars, and displays the HD channel normally. Of course the guide is also fine. I change back to the 480i channel, and the pillar bars are back. Wow, _my TV is smart enough to know the difference between 480i, and 1080i_ (well, _duh_, in hindsight). I'm nearly certain yours is smart enough, too. Here is where I am going with this:

I think what the HR20 would have to do is to _change resolution when you enter the guide_. If the HR20 did this, the TV would understand to remove the pillars, just like it did when you changed channel to 1080i/720p channel. This would clearly go for any TV based stretched modes as well.

That said, I'm not sure if you would want the HR20 to work this way, or not in native mode. You would have the same delay while the TV adjusted to the new resolution that you have when changing channels when native=on. And then, what about the info banner, and popup menu, etc... The behavior gets real complicated real fast.

P.S. re the name of HR20 "stretch" mode: Why this is a bad name: Calling this mode stretch assumes two things. That the display device is a 16:9 screen, and that the display device is set to a mode that will evenly draw the lines from edge to edge. One, or both of these assumptions is wrong in many cases. On top of that, the HR20 is using a different convention for describing the picture modes than the TV is using. The HR20 is telling you what it thinks it is sending (pillar, crop, "stretch with assumptions"). The TV modes are telling you what it is "doing" to the incoming signal (natural wide, pillar, even stretch). This is not surprising as the HR20 mission is to send stuff, and the TV's mission is to display stuff. A subtle difference, but part of the confusion, none the less, IMO.

Oh yeah, this thread definately needs some more of these:
:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: 
:bang :icon_dumm 
But we are who we are....


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

jcormack, you keep saying that if your settings are for 16:9 that the HR20 will send a 16:9 signal for all 4:3 material. This is just not accurate. See my photos for an example. See the gray bars on the one shot? Those gray bars were put there by my TV, not the HR20. The HR20 sent a 4:3 image with nothing else and NOT stretched. My TV did the work here and put up those bars shot. My box is set to 16:9 and that image would not fill the screen if my TV didn't supply the bars. Obviously something has to be there. It can't remove the structure of the TV to leave empty space but again, the HR20 did NOT do the work on this shot. It sent a true 480 line signal that did not include any kind of formatting. Any formatting you perceive is, in this mode combination, being done by my TV and not the HR20.

That's the entire point of what DirecTV provided by the combination of Native = On and Format = Stretch. Please disregard all knowledge of the definition of Stretch because it flat-out doesn't apply once Native is set to On. THAT I would love to get DirecTV to explain.

VOS, I also do not understand why DirecTV chose to stick non-stretched signal under the word "Stretch" in their box. It makes no sense as I've said many times. 

Cygnus, great banter above. That's exactly it. That we're still so screwed up in terms here says a LOT about this issue.

I believe Tony is right at this point. The place the stuck this is beyond comprehension. I'm glad they stuck it SOMEWHERE but it's almost as bad as saying, "Choose Native On and then set your banner delay to 8 seconds and you'll get unprocessed 480i."

VOS, understand that the Guide isn't driving this for me. It seems it's your driving factor now. I have no problem with a 4:3 guide as is as I'm always stretching (via the TV now, thank you) the guide anyway. Thus, on my set the Guide is always filling the screen. The Guide was never my problem. That I had to be stuck with HR20-processed 480i material was my problem. 

I will admit that my view and understanding of Native came from the Zenith I had where for it, Native applied to the resolution meant that no formatting from the Zenith worked. You did that from the TV. Once Native was on, it sent the signal untouched. I think we agree now. hehehe

Cygnus, I believe, is also right above on the guide/resolution issue. The HR20 would need to change resolutions for the Guide to appear as it does on a 720p or 1080i screen. Ditto on the non-Guide pop-ups. Those two will be limited to 4:3 image area (between the pillars) and I can't see a good way to get a 720p banner to appear over a live 4:3 signal.

Perhaps we should start a new thread. Clearly there's some room to discuss what happens with the guide in this case but it's not really related to the concept of this topic.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

1) my TV doesn't use pillar bars. It's LCD so that part is simply blank [as in not used].
2) if the HR-20 would send 640 x 480 with "it's pillarbox" and change to 720 x 480 for the guide, there is no "resolution" change as it's all 480, only "format" change.
3) The HR-20 pillarbox [bars] could have the option for "no color" [non existent].
4) With HD 1080i & a 4:3 show "real time with Bill Maher tonight there was a change with the TV and its full/zoom/wide zoom, and of course the guide changes as well.

Now IF I had a Plasma or CRT base HD I would ALWAYS want some color on every part of my display to not burn in [well it's really out] the phosphors unevenly.

Way too many "facets" to this picture.

We may have a "name" issue, but really I think it's an understanding issue. 
Native is for resolution, period. 
Format is something else whether stretch, pillarbox, crop, normal, full, wide zoom, or zoom.
This is why the native setting is in setup & the format can be changed with a remote button on either the HR-30 or the TV.
Once you can "grasp what's up" you have all of the buttons right there to press. 
Bingo, no biggie. 
Getting there could take a PhD, or seven pages of 170 posts.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Damn, it not the 480 that we're fighting with. It's the 640 to 720 part...the horizontal not the vertical. It's all 480 i/p doesn't matter, it 480 period. What all of this guide/stretch/zoom/pillarbox/bars/normal/etc. is the 640 to 720 change. Got it?
4:3 is 640 x 480 & 16:9 is 720 x 480. make sense?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

So with something other than 480:
The HR-20 format setting make no difference period, change any settings and the guide & picture doesn't change at all.
My Sony will change format to every mode.
Native ON TV makes all of the format changes.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Er, VOS, I don't understand your response 1) above. Simply blank? Clearly you're not able to stick your arms through the TV in the space where the pillars would be. Can you understand why I would argue that blank is the same thing as pillar bars?

I'm not getting #3 at all. If there is space on the left and right of a 4:3 picture on a 16:9 image, that space has some color. On your LCD it's black is it not? 

Lastly 640x480 and 720x480 may share the same vertical size but they are two entirely different resolutions. Different resolutions would require a refresh process with the HR20 and it would be noticeable just as it is now.

I would also argue that the Guide in every resolution is unique. It may appear the same to you but it's not the same. Just as a show in 720p may appear to you the same upconverted to 1080i but it is not the same. The 480i issue is a special case because it is not a 16:9 resolution factor.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> Er, VOS, I don't understand your response 1) above. Simply blank? Clearly you're not able to stick your arms through the TV in the space where the pillars would be. Can you understand why I would argue that blank is the same thing as pillar bars?
> I'm not getting #3 at all. If there is space on the left and right of a 4:3 picture on a 16:9 image, that space has some color. On your LCD it's black is it not?
> Lastly 640x480 and 720x480 may share the same vertical size but they are two entirely different resolutions. Different resolutions would require a refresh process with the HR20 and it would be noticeable just as it is now.
> I would also argue that the Guide in every resolution is unique. It may appear the same to you but it's not the same. Just as a show in 720p may appear to you the same upconverted to 1080i but it is not the same. The 480i issue is a special case because it is not a 16:9 resolution factor.


Excuse me but: what do you see with native off/on and a 4:3 image [not stretched] a 640 "dots" or pixels in a line & 480 [of them] either interlaced or progressively scanned up or down. Right?
What's the resolution change to 720 "dots" or pixels in the line? There are still 480 of them to make up the image. The resolution is 480.
Same thing with a 1080i, as tonight. It can be 4:3 or 16:9 when it changes between these it's still 1080i. No resolution change at all. 1080 scan lines comprising a 4:3 or 16:9 image.
Basic three resolutions are : 480, 720, 1080. That's it. Now of course each has either an interlaced or progressive scan, but these aren't a resolution change.
Whether 16:9 or 4:3 is format not resolution.
Now "standards" are 1080 x 1920, 720 x 1280, 480 x 640 & DVD 480 x 720.
The HR-20 can do [does] 480 x 720 for a 16:9 display.
Can we agree on this?


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

_"Just when I thought that I was out they pulled me back in!"_
-Michael Corleone


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

"Pillarbox" "black/gray" come out the S-Video & composite outputs
"Pillarbox" "none" would send "none" [duh] out the S-Video & composite outputs along with "none" on the component & HDMI.
By "none" I mean a true 4:3 only signal & the guide would be "only" 4:3, as opposed to now where the image can be 4:3 but the guide is displayed in 16:9.

This is why I say the guide is driving the "anomaly" seem now between native on & off and the "required" FORMAT change.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> The HR-20 can do [does] 480 x 720 for a 16:9 display.
> Can we agree on this?


Absolutely. When you have the HR20 set to pillarbox mode, It is doing 720x480. When the HR20 is set to format= _stretch_, of all things, it is doing 640x480.

How your TV displays these resolutions is between you and your TV. And, it knows the difference when it sees it. _But_, since 720x480 is intrinsically 16:9, your 16:9 display will be less flexible in how it can deal with it, compared to the 640x480. Just like your display device is more inflexible in dealing with a 1920x1080 resolution(as 1920/1080 also = 16/9). Apparently, Agrajag's Pioneer can do some pretty amazing things with a 640x480 input. It doesn't do nearly as much with a 720x480 input. But why would it want to. It's 720:480 ratio display!

There is (was) a television "standard" called ED (boy, that one really took off) IIRC, it was 720x480 progressive. I suppose D* certainly could broadcast in "ED" but I don't know if they ever have, or why they would really want to.

EDIT: It *does* have a 480p light on the front, so one never knows, of course.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Right except for: 720 x 640 ? :nono:
> Try 720 x 480


Good catch, edited.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> Absolutely. There is (was) a television "standard" called ED (boy, that one really took off) IIRC, it was 720x480 progressive. I suppose D* certainly could broadcast in "ED" but I don't know if they ever have, or why they would really want to.


Now a 720 x 480p would handle letterbox better, but would also take bandwidth. Get what: we never see that one. The "ED" was a stop gap for DVDs, before HD [or a cheap in between].


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

So to try & shove the stake deeper into the heart of this 480 native on/off.
The pillarbox [black/gray] is in fact 720 x 480, so the guide will be displayed wide screen. Changing to native on requires the format to change to stretch which in fact reduces the output to 640 x 480, from the "pillarbox" 720 x 480 output.
This arrangement of "labels" works for native off & is reversed for native on.
Since there is NO format adjustment/change for HD resolutions; only the 480 resolution is affected and oddly enough is the one that is used for all of this format changes.

One big can of worms, I think driven by "the guide" GUI.

OK, this is what's happening.

*So D* what can you do* to clear up this can of worms you gave us?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Getting ready for my HR-20 install on Tuesday. My Fujitsu plasma has a picture aspect memory for each input resolution, so if I feed it 480i or 480p, it currently remembers I like "wide 1" mode (center untouched, sides stretched for 4:3 programming). If I feed it 720p or 1080i, it remembers I like "full" mode (picture untouched).

I want the HR-20 to deinterlace 480i to 480p, and add no pillar bars to the signal. I want 720p and 1080i to go over "as is". From what I'm reading, I should select :"16:9", "native", "stretch", "480p", "720p" and "1080i". Do I have that right?

I'm hopeful that set up like this, I will never have to touch the format button on the remote, whether I'm watching an SD or HD signal, because my Fujitsu input resolution "memory" will take care of appropriately sizing what's coming in.

Think this will work? TIA. /steve


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

Sluciani, I think you might also want to select 480i. It sounds like your set can receive a 480i signal and deal with it. Thus you'd also select it.

I also believe that you are correct. Once it's setup this way you should never need to touch the Format button. I haven't needed to touch it since making the switch either.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> Sluciani, I think you might also want to select 480i. It sounds like your set can receive a 480i signal and deal with it. Thus you'd also select it.
> 
> I also believe that you are correct. Once it's setup this way you should never need to touch the Format button. I haven't needed to touch it since making the switch either.


Thanks! Exactly what I was hoping to hear. 

I will try 480i, but I found that my HR-10's deinterlacer (Mediatek?) did a slightly better job than my Fujitsu's AVM II processor. I'm hopeful the HR-20's deinterlacer will be as good or better than the HR-10's.

/steve


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

sluciani said:


> Thanks! Exactly what I was hoping to hear.
> 
> I will try 480i, but I found that my HR10 deinterlacer (Mediatek?) did a slightly better job than my Fujitsu's AVM II processor. I'm hopeful the HR20 deinterlacer will be as good.
> 
> /steve


Yeah, I think you got it right. IMHO, the HR20 does a fine job of both scaling and deinterlacing. IF you want it to send plain old SD programming at 480p, 640x480, no pillarbar added, and no cropping, use: Native=on, format=stretch, 480p/720p/1080i checked. The HD programming will behave as you stated.

My Samsung 5687 behaves as you stated as well. It remembers its own format/display settings for each resolution. I never have to touch the TV's format button.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> My Samsung 5687 behaves as you stated as well. It remembers its own format/display settings for each resolution. I never have to touch the TV's format button.


 Awesome! The way it SHOULD work, IMHO. Thx.

If the HR-20 had an anamorphic stretch mode option instead of just a linear one, I would probably let it handle everything. This will work out just fine, tho. Everything will get scaled to my display's native 768p just once. No unnecessary conversions. /steve


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Interlaced is for CRT based displays.
Non CRT displays will use progressive regardless. The HR-20 de-interlacing has access to the motion vectoring info that the TV doesn't. As such can change "i" to "p" better.


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