# DSL and networking



## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I am awaiting DSL its to be installed next week. I am considering networking 2 computers. Is there a length limitation to ethernet cables?

I am SO GLAD version is offering DSL, I truly want NOTHING to do with cable.....Espically AT&T


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Hey Bob,

100 meters is about as long as you want to go. Obviously the shorter the better.

When you network the computers, you might want to invest in a router rather than a simple hub. Routers are much better for connecting 2 or more computers to 1 DSL connection. The Linksys router works well http://www.linksys.com/Products/product.asp?grid=23&prid=20 and has a built in firewall. Also make sure you have 100BaseT network cards in your computers. The transfer rates are MUCH quicker.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

And there is also wireless. Where that Linksys DSL Router Chris mentioned is around $74 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SB92 , the same one with Wireless Access Point Built in http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005ARK3 will cost you $134 and will allow you to not worry so much about cabling.

Pros: If you have a notebook, you can move it around from room to room and always stay connected.

Cons: Your Wireless Network speed will be about 11 Megabits (Farther away yo go from the Wireless Access Ppint the slower the speed) While cable wired these days will get you around 100Megabits, But if all you care is about Internet Access, your DSL connection will probably be closer to .144 Megabits to 2 Megabits, at physically at most 10Megabits. So Wireless dosen't hurt you. If you do alot of transfer of files between your machines the speed will be much slower with wireless. Also you need to make sure you setup your wireless network to not use the default encryption key, because any neighbor may inadvertantely join your network when they boot up (Think about UHF Dishnetwork remotes all set to 1 within 30 feet of each other, set them to different #s and life is better) From Linksys it says "Range of operation of up to 150 meters indoors, up to 500 meters outdoors". But when you are at the limits your will be connecting alot slower the 11Megabits.


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

Bob, I am really enjoying my cable modem.  But that is beside the point. And I don't have ATT.
Anyway, as Chris said the limit is 100 meters. If you are looking for the best solution, the router is the best choice. If you are looking at the cheapest solution, if you are only connecting two computers, you don't need a router or a hub. All you need is at least one network card in each computer and Internet Connection Sharing. I know many people don't like ICS, but I am now using it with ME, and it has been improved immensly since 98. It is much more stable these days. If your modem connects to your computer with UBS you just set up your network with the NIC in each computer. If the modem connects to a NIC you will have to add a second card in the computer acting as the server. You need to make sure you use a crossover cord, not a standard patch cord. For a better explanation many websights explain the process, including this one: http://cwdixon.com/support/win98_support/dun_ics.htm
In setting up a firewall, you do need to make sure that it supports ICS, not all of them do.


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## bogi (Apr 3, 2002)

You can use a Linksys Router(cheap) for a network. I use it. It is very good.

Unfortunetly I have ATT(They are the spawn of Satan) and I am capped at 1500kbs/128kbs while people just a few towns away recieve uncapped speeds which are just as fast t1s for al lower price then I pay


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by gcutler _
> *same one with Wireless Access Point Built in http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005ARK3 will cost you $134 and will allow you to not worry so much about cabling.
> *


Don't forget, you also have to buy wireless cards for each computer on top of the $134 for the router. Wireless is a much more expensive option, less secure and slower. I wouldn't recommend it.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Actually if implemented properly the wireless solution can really give alot of freedom. Even the cost of the Wireless NICs has come down, but you are right, you can't get that generic and stable $20 card like you can with the wired type.

As for speed, if only used to access the internet, the speed is not as big as a deal. What good is having a 100MBp network if you are only using the network to connect out to the internet at a max speed of 1MBp based on your best DSL speed.

Just that there are considerations....

1) If the budget is like $100 total for everything for 2 PCs (including router)
2) Not someone who wants to get involved with the issues of wireless
3) If they share files amongst the other PCs

Then Wireless is not a good idea.

But is someone had a budget of $225 for 2 PCs (including router), it can be done very well and safe and easy.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005854E/
Linksys Wireless nic $45
But even with the limitiations, I know people who can never go back to Wired. At work we setup a test Wireless network and after 6 months wanted to take it down, but anyone who used it made such a stink about it, that our test environment became production over night (the fact that most of the IT department fell in love with it as well made the conversion to production less problematic) Nothing like being in a conference room staff meeting with not one wire connected to any notebook (power or network)

But my paranoia says, thats way tooo may radio waves zapping thru our brains :shrug:


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

Speaking of paranoia, a few nights ago one of the local tv stations here in Omaha had a news segment where they went for a short drive and tapped into 59 wireless networks. Very few have any kind of security. Bob, if you can run cable for a dish system you should be able to run some network cable.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bogy _
> *Speaking of paranoia, a few nights ago one of the local tv stations here in Omaha had a news segment where they went for a short drive and tapped into 59 wireless networks. Very few have any kind of security. *


And all it takes is like 5 seconds to fix that. Something else to consider, you'd be shocked how many people who buy the regular wired DSL Routers don't change the default password. And many of the routers will give some hint of when probed so even with the Routers, not very secure if the default password is left as is.

Sad thing is this info is available to the implementers but they often don't read the white paper or even manual. Even on my Dish recievers I change the default password so a "Visitor" can't drive me crazy by turning on the protection and blocking CNN


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Thanks for all the great uinfo. For costs and security I will probably go wired with a router. I dont have a laptop and my computers stay in one spot. I will definetely use a password so people cant mess with my system. Now if verison would get my service on line. I am looking forward to high speed access. The money I save by deleting a phone line will roughly equal the cost of DSL, so its a good deal for us. Thanks for all the responses.

Oh yeah whats 100 meters in feet?


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

100 meters = 328 Feet


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

so the ethernet cable runs max length is over 300 feet, thats amazing, mine likely will be shorter than 50 feet. Its a matter of getting it thru the walls the easiest way. Easiest is likely longer....

Thanks Chris. 

HO HO maybe I should go wireless and see if any neighbors systems are availabe at no charge? Just joking but (I bet folks do that on occasion. is there a way for a wirless sub to know if someone sealing their signal? I am curious about that since Jen says wirless would be neat, she wants a laptop some day.

I have had problems with E remotes, there are other subs close by and every now and then I have had to change the address. Either that or neighborhood kids are having fun, In my youth I once opened a neighbors electric garage door with a kit my mom bought me to learn about electroinics, she was not amused

I just opened it for sport, didnt do any harm but ratle a neighbors nerves


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Bob,

Every Network Card (or router) has a hard coded Physical ID assigned to it (something like 01-23-45-67-89-AB-CD). No card in the world is supposed to have an identical address (as vendors will always have the first 2 or 4 digits that only belong to them). If you went into the diagnostics/setup of the Wireless system you could see a list of active addresses. You could easily find out what MAC addresses are active on your Wireless Access Point and then see which ones match your two PCs and Router. And if there were extra devices on the network it would probably be proof that you had a visitor. :nono: 

If you are running 95/89/ME, load WINIPCFG, pick the network card (may default to modem). Then in the details you could see the Physical or MAC address. In NT, W2K, or XP, you would do 

IPCONFIG /all, 

Here is a heavily edited (some outright lies) listing of my IPCONFIG ...

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : gcutler's PC
....Removed non importants stuff....

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

....Removed non importants stuff....
Description . . . . . . . . . . . . : 3Com(R) 10/100 Adapter
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 01-23-45-67-89-AB
....Removed non importants stuff....


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

My local news just has a "Special" on the potential insecurity of wireless, but they actually found supermarkets and government agencies (tomorrow is for the home networks). It was shocking that as of May 6th 2002 there would be corporate or govt agencies that were unaware of the default settings being insecure. Home users no shock, but the IT people on these companies mentioned need to be spoken to.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Bob once your installed you will ask yourself how you used AOL for so long. Enjoy it!


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Even better, if he is ever at a friends house who does not have DSL or Cable Modem, he may go insane trying to use the connection from it being unbearably slow with a the dialup connection :grin:


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

AOL is more evil than ATT. I spent about five hours a couple of weeks ago restoring the computer of my daughter's roommate. After they got their cable modem installed she deleted AOL, and it somehow took all the network protocols with it. At least it gave me a chance to get rid of all the other junk she had downloaded, or that had downloaded itself over the past couple of years.


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *HO HO maybe I should go wireless and see if any neighbors systems are availabe at no charge? Just joking but (I bet folks do that on occasion. is there a way for a wirless sub to know if someone sealing their signal? I am curious about that since Jen says wirless would be neat, she wants a laptop some day.
> *


Well there are some altruistic folks who are setting up urban wireless networks for the masses. Maybe you should think of your neighbors as friends instead of "network intruders".

http://news.com.com/2100-1033-273516.html?legacy=cnet
http://www.nycwireless.net/


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

dsl finally coonnected and working, still have slowdowns in some areas, but speed is better.


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## BuggyBoyWA (May 15, 2002)

I do not really consider wireless (802.11b) to be that insecure...
I mean, look, if you need privacy for what your sending, you should be using another layer of encryption instead of just WEP.
If you are using RSA 128-bit data encryption while your making an online purchase through an "unsecure/non-WEP" wireless connection, you still have just as much protection as a dialup or cable modem user.

The only thing I can see getting looked at would be stuff like your webpages (unsecured) and your instant messages!

On the "neighbor stealing your connection", you can choose in the access point setup to not broadcast itself as a network. So, only if you know the network name you can connect. You can also setup MAC address filtering, where only the client cards you specify can connect to the network.


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *dsl finally coonnected and working, still have slowdowns in some areas, but speed is better. *


Bob, with a broadband connection I notice some pages do open faster, particularly pages with a lot of pictures/graphics, but where I really notice the difference is in downloads. I still have a dialup connection at church and I will download things at home, burn them on a CD, and then load it at work, rather than put up with a download that takes 5 minutes at home and 30 to 60 minutes with the dialup.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

I have a guy in my Florida office that has successfully broken 128-bit wep, as well as mac address filtering. He did it in 30 minutes - I was shocked, then instantly glad that he works for my company and not a competitor.


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## lee635 (Apr 17, 2002)

We're thinking about hanging a few wireless access points off our campus LAN, so laptop users can sit in the quad and surf the net.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Downloads are incredibly fast. I am out of pci slots, now how do I network computer 2. It does have USB, is that convertible to ethernet?


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

Bob, what do you have at this point? DSL modem attached to a NIC on the first computer? How did you want to go? Wireless, router/hub, direct connect? There are various options, but tell us what you would like to do and we can tell you how its not possible.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

ho ho! Not possible??? good one! I have dsl connected by ethernet to computer #1. Looking to add a second computer wired to NIC ethernet I guess. I feel more comnfy with wired and beside it appears less expensive and no interference issues.

I guess I need a router and ethernet cable. May have space on computer 2 for a ethernet adapter. Have usb on both computers too. Thanks for the help.


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## BuggyBoyWA (May 15, 2002)

Since we are discussing networking...
Is there a client card for Wi-Fi (802.11b) that is ethernet based, or is it possible to use an access point as a client and connect the ethernet port to your computer? I ask because my system WILL NOT WORK with a PC Card or several USB client cards i've found. It simply doesn't like it, ethernet would solve the problem!

TIA!


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I have been helping a neighbor with a computer someone gave him. Its hard drive had been totally wiped and he has no restore disk. We now after much struggle and endless hours have it working pretty good. 

How do I create a restore disk for him? Can I ethernet my computer and his and use my cd rom burner to crete a copy of his operating system as it stands today? 

No it wasnt worth the effort $ but I have learned a lot by doing this. He would of been better off buying a new computer fir $600. I think hew now understands this. 

But I always wanted to do something like this, so its educational value was great. Replaced modem, sound card, and lots of other interesting and frustrating stuff.


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## Lightnin1 (Apr 23, 2002)

Hi Bob,

The easiest thing you could is find a copy of Norton Ghost 2002. Next, take your cd burner out of your system and install it in his just long enough to burn his restore CD. Ghost 2002 will burn a restore CD right from DOS or a command prompt. I burn them all the time. It will span to multiple CD's if your hardrive is over 700 meg.

You can also burn a restore CD with adaptec, but there are alot less options.

Have fun. Hope this helps!

Jason


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I am thinking of putting my left over 8 gig DP HD in my neighbors gateway 166. How hard is this to do?


On a BAD note my DSL is not working. Virus and fire wall seem to sl;ow down DSL and make access poor. Another day another problem...


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## Lightnin1 (Apr 23, 2002)

Installing a hardrive is not hard. You will have to, more than likely, reinstall the operating system when you install the hardrive, just keep that in mind.

Whats not working with your DSL?


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## MarkA (Mar 23, 2002)

Yes, installing the hard drive is a piece of cake, and reinstalling the OS is not much harder. I'd just wipe the drive and clean install everything even if it does seem to be work so it runs best.


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## Bardman (Apr 23, 2002)

Do any Broadband ISPs have policies against thier customers setting up a wireless base station? I have thought of replacing my Linksys 4 port "wired" router with a wireless model so my neighbor can connect with a wireless NIC and we can then split the broadband cable modem bill 50/50. Makes it plenty cheaper than the 2nd phone line.


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## BuggyBoyWA (May 15, 2002)

Yes, most ISPs have a section in their rules that prohibits you sharing the connection with other people or "reselling" it. However, as long as your ISP never found out (chances are, they never would), no one will care.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Bob,

Anti-Virus should not make that much of a difference (unless you have a very new version of the SW running on an very old PC. )

You may want to change your SW Firewall settings to be less strict and see if that helps. Could also just be bad timing. There are times (like 6pm) where my DSL speed is really slow (because everyone in the world is on the internet at that time). Try it at like 6AM or Midnight and see if the speed is better. I have figured out my average/best speed (just from a visual que) and whenever it is slower there are typically other factors going on. But I have a Hardware Router so that factor is removed.


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## Rick_EE (Apr 5, 2002)

I noticed that with my cable modem, a lot of web page loading speed was dictated by the connection at their end. 
My PII450 was slowed down by McAfee 6.0 with all protections activated. I turned off a few, like scan on run, to make it work.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rick Densing _
> *My PII450 was slowed down by McAfee 6.0 with all protections activated. I turned off a few, like scan on run, to make it work. *


With a PII-450 being a 4 year old CPU (I just replaced my 4 year old PII-450) is probably dosen't have the power to run McAfee 6.0 in full function (if mcafee 6.0 is latest???). But I bet if you had a 1GHz or higher CPU, you would not notice much slowdown.

One way around would be to use a slightly older version of McAfee (v4 or v5.), since newest versions always seem to require alot more memory and CPU. But question is what does v6.x buy you in protection.

I was running Norton AV 2000 on my PII-450 with little problem, but Norton AV 2002 might kill the PII-450 performance wise.

And the other issue I have seen is that CPU may not be the issue. The difference between 128MB and 256MB RAM may make a big difference. Win98 with the TCPIP and Network card drivers loaded can often take 64MB, leaving 64MB free of 128MB RAM. You add AV and Firewall and if running WinME and before you know it you are using 96MB-128MB RAM just to boot. Memory is cheap at the moment, upgrading from 128MB to 256MB (assuming free memory slot) only cost me $19 a few months ago, price may not be as good now.

A good way to reclaim memory is to unload all those resident programs in your system tray (Real Player, etc) Those programs will run just a find without some app in the system tray sucking up 5MB :-{


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## invaliduser88 (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gcutler _
> *
> 
> Cons: Your Wireless Network speed will be about 11 Megabits (Farther away yo go from the Wireless Access Ppint the slower the speed) While cable wired these days will get you around 100Megabits, But if all you care is about Internet Access, your DSL connection will probably be closer to .144 Megabits to 2 Megabits, at physically at most 10Megabits. So Wireless dosen't hurt you. *


Who as a 11MB+ Internet connection, raise your hand? 

Unless you are doing massive data transfer's, 11MB will due just find in a home network.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Even without alot of file transfer, people notice the difference. Give someone a 100Megabit Network and then Try stepping back to a 11Megabit wireless even for small files and see what people say. With files like MP3s and Digital photos (the stuff that makes a CD-RW look like a lame floppy) you notice it. But it is all a matter of perspective. But don't forget, 11Megabit is the BEST you will get with a wireless, the further you go from the WAP, the slow it will be. In our conference room at work, we are getting around 2MegaBit

Just laying down all the issues, don't want to say that I didn't cover something.


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