# I'm back, need some more help



## ron mexico75

So I am having a company come out and mount the plasma on a brick wall. Have to install a power source too, run wires behind wall etc. He stated that they would be using one 30-35 foot HDMI from the tv to a 3x1 switch over to where the bookshelf holds everything. Then use "jumper" HDMI cables 3-5 feet long from the switch to each component.
Anything I should be worried about? Are the HDMI sitches a good thing?
He also said that the ARC on most setups he has dealt with is a pain and only works some of the time. He suggested just using the digital optical on the tv to the sound bar I am buying because it would be more stable. Does that sound legitimate?
I've read reviews about Panasonic plasmas that they do not allow you to turn off the internal speakers just allow them to be turned down? Will this present an issue with turning the volume up and down via a sound bar?
I picked the JBL SB400 because of the 4 HDMI ports. Now it doesn't appear that I will even use those. Would the Kllipsch be a better choice now?

http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Cinema-Soundbar-Speaker-System/dp/B00AWTW480/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=EJYDESP9YZRY&coliid=I6069UGQULW07
http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-HD-Theater-SB-Soundbar/dp/B0092QGSHM/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=EJYDESP9YZRY&coliid=IZPU4S2UUGG71


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## ron mexico75

Anybody know about this or have an opinion that can help me?


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## jimmie57

Specs on this one are way better.
http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-HD-Theater-SB-Soundbar/dp/B0092QGSHM/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=EJYDESP9YZRY&coliid=IZPU4S2UUGG71&tag=5336432741-20


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## ron mexico75

Specs on this one are way better.
http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-HD-Theater-SB-Soundbar/dp/B0092QGSHM/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=EJYDESP9YZRY&coliid=IZPU4S2UUGG71&tag=5336432741-20

Jimmy I thank you once again. you are usually the only one who replies to me.

So what are the specs you were looking at is it just total watts or what?


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## jimmie57

The sub for one. It goes down to 28 and the other one only goes to 38. The lower the number the lower the bass you will get from it.
The size is important also. I have an 8" and 2, 10" subs. The 10" has 25% more surface area than the 8". The surface area is where you get the lower notes and the volume. I can't hardly tell if my 8" sub is working or not when I do all that I can to adjust it. Not so with the 10" subs.
The 8" sub is now disconnected and in the closet now.


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## Rich

ron mexico75 said:


> So I am having a company come out and mount the plasma on a brick wall. Have to install a power source too, run wires behind wall etc. He stated that they would be using one 30-35 foot HDMI from the tv to a 3x1 switch over to where the bookshelf holds everything. Then use "jumper" HDMI cables 3-5 feet long from the switch to each component.
> Anything I should be worried about? Are the HDMI sitches a good thing?
> He also said that the ARC on most setups he has dealt with is a pain and only works some of the time. He suggested just using the digital optical on the tv to the sound bar I am buying because it would be more stable. Does that sound legitimate?
> I've read reviews about Panasonic plasmas that they do not allow you to turn off the internal speakers just allow them to be turned down? Will this present an issue with turning the volume up and down via a sound bar?
> I picked the JBL SB400 because of the 4 HDMI ports. Now it doesn't appear that I will even use those. Would the Kllipsch be a better choice now?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Cinema-Soundbar-Speaker-System/dp/B00AWTW480/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=EJYDESP9YZRY&coliid=I6069UGQULW07
> http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-HD-Theater-SB-Soundbar/dp/B0092QGSHM/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=EJYDESP9YZRY&coliid=IZPU4S2UUGG71


I've got 8 Panny plasmas and they all allow the speakers to be shut off.

Rich


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## ron mexico75

I've got 8 Panny plasmas and they all allow the speakers to be shut off. 

Rich


Okay well that's good to know. I found it hard to believe you couldn't do that because my six-year-old Hitachi allows you to turn them off. I guess it was some idiot poster on Amazon who had no idea how to do it so he just assumed it cannot be done. 

I am getting the VT 60 by the way.


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## ron mexico75

The sub for one. It goes down to 28 and the other one only goes to 38. The lower the number the lower the bass you will get from it.
The size is important also. I have an 8" and 2, 10" subs. The 10" has 25% more surface area than the 8". The surface area is where you get the lower notes and the volume. I can't hardly tell if my 8" sub is working or not when I do all that I can to adjust it. Not so with the 10" subs.
The 8" sub is now disconnected and in the closet now.


Okay interesting that's one thing I was worried about. I used to have a JBL 10 inch hooked up when I had a receiver and surround speakers. Absolutely loved that thing. that's one concern I had going down to an 8 inch after having the 10 inch for about 10 years.


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## jimmie57

The review for this one is very good. Read the review of the guy that tried and returned several until he bought this one.


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## ron mexico75

The review for this one is very good. Read the review of the guy that tried and returned several until he bought this one.


Which one?


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## ron mexico75

The review for this one is very good. Read the review of the guy that tried and returned several until he bought this one.


The JBL or the klipsch?


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## jimmie57

ron mexico75 said:


> The JBL or the klipsch?


 klipsch

I just noticed that this one only had the red and white and the optical connection. Your TV has optical digital output.

This was in your original post " He suggested just using the digital optical on the tv to the sound bar I am buying because it would be more stable. Does that sound legitimate? "

I like the optical digital output. I run one from my DTV receiver directly to the connection on my Yamaha.


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## kikkenit2

Ron, you bought the correct tv, but you are doing this home theater build all wrong.
I love this site for satellite service, but these questions should be posted at avsforum.com.

By avoiding routing your audio and video thru an audio/video receiver you are downgrading
the quality of both. Sending digital optical audio from the tv to the soundbar is not near as
good as connecting all your input devices to the receiver and then connecting the toslink audio
directly to the soundbar and hdmi video directly to the tv. Don't route your audio through the
tv if possible.

And don't mount that 60" tv all the way up to the ceiling. Tilted or not, way too high. And the
soundbar goes underneath that correct? You are slowly cooking all that fine equipment you
just bought. Hope it doesn't get cold there much mounting above a stove room heater.

There are mounts where you can telescope the tv away from the wall a foot or two. Still too hot.


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## ron mexico75

kikkenit2 said:


> Ron, you bought the correct tv, but you are doing this home theater build all wrong.
> I love this site for satellite service, but these questions should be posted at avsforum.com.
> 
> By avoiding routing your audio and video thru an audio/video receiver you are downgrading
> the quality of both. Sending digital optical audio from the tv to the soundbar is not near as
> good as connecting all your input devices to the receiver and then connecting the toslink audio
> directly to the soundbar and hdmi video directly to the tv. Don't route your audio through the
> tv if possible.
> 
> And don't mount that 60" tv all the way up to the ceiling. Tilted or not, way too high. And the
> soundbar goes underneath that correct? You are slowly cooking all that fine equipment you
> just bought. Hope it doesn't get cold there much mounting above a stove room heater.
> 
> There are mounts where you can telescope the tv away from the wall a foot or two. Still too hot.


Yes I hear you thanks for your opinion and thank you for posting. I've been through this mounting dilemma before I already had a thread on it. That is the only place this TV can go in this new house with the furniture we have so I've already debated that. This is where it's going to go.

Normally I would have bought a new receiver and a gone that route. However because this TV is not going on a stand and is not up against the wall I need it to look clean. I do not want to have to be drilling through walls and floors just to put speakers up plus there's no good positioning for rear speakers anyways. This house has all hardwood floors and there is a bedroom right above the family room so I don't think it would be a good idea to have a really powerful system anyways. I am more or less looking for something that is better than the TV speakers with a little extra added bass. That is why I chose the sound bar option. Now that I've made that decision I just want to get the best one that is out there that is reasonably priced. I have seen ones upwards of $2000 And that is ridiculous for a sound bar.

You are the second person who has mentioned a sound bar and a receiver, could you explain that? I thought sound bars did not require receivers everything was built into them? I mean depending on the cost, could you provide me with a link to the set up you are talking about? It does interest me.


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## jimmie57

Ron,
lots of the older TVs did not output Digital Audio. Yours does. Look on page 27 of this manual for your TV.
From the Manual, " *DIGITAL AUDIO OUT *PCM / Dolby Digital, Fiber Optic"

http://service.us.panasonic.com/OPERMANPDF/TCP55VT60.PDF

If you are going to use a soudbar I would go thru the TV first.


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## Laxguy

kikkenit2 said:


> By avoiding routing your audio and video thru an audio/video receiver you are downgrading
> the quality of both. Sending digital optical audio from the tv to the soundbar is not near as
> good as connecting all your input devices to the receiver and then connecting the toslink audio
> directly to the soundbar and hdmi video directly to the tv. Don't route your audio through the
> tv if possible.


Could you kindly explain why this is so? I don't have a soundbar, but I do not run my DIRECTV's (HR44) HDMI through my AVR, and I do link audio to the Denon via optical from the TV. My speaker set up is at this moment 2.0! We've just moved, and haven't the right stuff to put in a center channel or woofer for now.


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## jimmie57

Laxguy said:


> Could you kindly explain why this is so? I don't have a soundbar, but I do not run my DIRECTV's (HR44) HDMI through my AVR, and I do link audio to the Denon via optical from the TV. My speaker set up is at this moment 2.0! We've just moved, and haven't the right stuff to put in a center channel or woofer for now.


Check your TV manual and see if it Outputs Dolby Digital. If it does I doubt if there is any difference.

With the HR44 you could just run this direct from it to the AVR and try it to see if there is a difference.
There is a possible drawback to going to the AVR from the HR44 and that is Lipsynch. If it sounds better you need to look at the AVR manual of how to correct it.


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## kikkenit2

The tv manual says it will pass digital audio through the tv,
but it doesn't say what happens to that audio as it passes
through the tv. They have been downmixing 5.1 all along
and it still a problem.

At least Home Theater magazine says so. The recent version
that tested several soundbars found a huge degrade in sound
quality when passing the audio through even the newest tv's.
It is discussed on page 3 by the editor.

The new TV's are getting better, but it is still a problem. Only
in depth reviews define the actual signal coming out of the tv.
The manual doesn't admit that they are downmixing the audio.

Most new receivers don't have toslink out so bypassing the tv
is complicated wiring. An older cheap receiver that has hdmi and
digital audio out would work best. Connect all sources to receiver
and run hdmi and toslink cables together out to tv/soundbar location.


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## jimmie57

This is from my TV ( Samsung ) manual.

*Connecting a Digital Audio System*
The rear panel jacks on your TV make it easy to connect a Digital Audio System (Home theater/Receiver) to your TV.

1. Connect an Optical Cable between the "DIGITAL AUDIO OUT (OPTICAL)" jacks on the TV and the Digital Audio Input jacks on the Digital Audio System. 

When a Digital Audio System is connected to the "DIGITAL AUDIO OUT (OPTICAL)" jack: Decrease the volume of the TV and adjust the volume level with the system's volume control.

*TV Rear PanelDigital Audio SystemOptical Cable (Not supplied)*​
*5.1CH audio is possible when the TV is connected to an external device supporting 5.1CH.*


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## kikkenit2

Here it is. From a review of the ST60 by Home Theater magazine May 24, 2013

"If you expect to connect a soundbar and have the TV perform switching among HDMI sources such as a cable box and Blu-ray player, be advised that the ST's optical digital audio output you'll use to feed the soundbar downconverts all multichannel Dolby Digital and DTS bitstreams to PCM stereo, which will bypass any DD or DTS decoder built into the soundbar and result in less-than-best sound quality. This practice is unfortunately common to most HDTVs today."

http://www.hometheater.com/content/panasonic-viera-tc-p60st60-3d-plasma-hdtv

Just found several reviews of the VT60. Fantastic picture and speakers sound better than most.
So far not one tested the digital audio out. HT reviewed the VT50 but didn't test the audio out.
For those that use a soundbar that Samsung may be a better deal. And the VT60 might not
be downmixing, but it very likely is and most brands/models still are degrading digital audio as
it passes through the tv.


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## ron mexico75

Here it is. From a review of the ST60 by Home Theater magazine May 24, 2013

"If you expect to connect a soundbar and have the TV perform switching among HDMI sources such as a cable box and Blu-ray player, be advised that the ST's optical digital audio output you'll use to feed the soundbar downconverts all multichannel Dolby Digital and DTS bitstreams to PCM stereo, which will bypass any DD or DTS decoder built into the soundbar and result in less-than-best sound quality. This practice is unfortunately common to most HDTVs today."

http://www.hometheater.com/content/panasonic-viera-tc-p60st60-3d-plasma-hdtv

Just found several reviews of the VT60. Fantastic picture and speakers sound better than most.
So far not one tested the digital audio out. HT reviewed the VT50 but didn't test the audio out.
For those that use a soundbar that Samsung may be a better deal. And the VT60 might not
be downmixing, but it very likely is and most brands/models still are degrading digital audio as
it passes through the tv.

Very interesting great information! Thank you for posting that. I wish I had the set up to just add a true 5.1 speaker system and a receiver but I really do not. That is the reasoning with going with a sound bar.

I am now back at looking at the original sound bar I was going to get the Polk audio 9000 IHT.

http://amzn.com/B00AQY57AI

It says it can decode and reproduce Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1. It also says many sound bars can decode 5.1 but only reproduce it as two channel stereo. This Polk audio plays back all discrete channels as intended.

Having read the post above about the optical output on the Panasonic's, now I'm wondering if this Polk audio would be a waste of money and I should just stick with that JBL SB 400.

http://amzn.com/B00AWTW480


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## kikkenit2

Ron, not sure why you are changing soundbars at this point.
Let's assume you have a good soundbar/subwoofer set.

Instead of an amplified receiver this should work.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2

Just connect all your hdmi inputs to this switch and strip the 5.1 audio from the video.
Connect the 35' hdmi and 35' toslink audio cable to the outputs and run both to the fireplace.
Connect the video to the plasma and the toslink audio to the soundbar. The soundbar will
decode the audio channels properly and amplify the sound. Nothing wasted in the soundbar.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022901&p_id=2832&seq=1&format=2

Here is the 35' digital audio cable. Less than $10. They have 40' or 50' also.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024005&p_id=2742&seq=1&format=2

35' hdmi almost $30. A few small zip ties and you're done.
Bypass the tv audio for high quality/piece of mind.
Now let's find you the right soundbar. How much $$$ you got left?


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## ron mexico75

Ron, not sure why you are changing soundbars at this point.
Let's assume you have a good soundbar/subwoofer set.

Instead of an amplified receiver this should work.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2

Just connect all your hdmi inputs to this switch and strip the 5.1 audio from the video.
Connect the 35' hdmi and 35' toslink audio cable to the outputs and run both to the fireplace.
Connect the video to the plasma and the toslink audio to the soundbar. The soundbar will
decode the audio channels properly and amplify the sound. Nothing wasted in the soundbar.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10229&cs_id=1022901&p_id=2832&seq=1&format=2

Here is the 35' digital audio cable. Less than $10. They have 40' or 50' also.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024005&p_id=2742&seq=1&format=2

35' hdmi almost $30. A few small zip ties and you're done.
Bypass the tv audio for high quality/piece of mind.
Now let's find you the right soundbar. How much $$$ you got left?

You are "DA MAN" kikkenit2!!!

Makes total sense and a very clear explanation. I had no idea something like that even existed. I emailed the installer with what you said and a link to that switcher with optical out to see what he says.

Man you have been a HUGE help. Not only with recommending that switcher with optical to overcome the downgrade on sound that would occur passing through the tv. But, also backing it up with those articles. You're right, I doubt the VT60 passes 5.1 if the ST60 doesn't.

Now like you said, how much more money do I have to spend? Well I like the $549 price on that JBL SB400 but.....................I'd be willing to spend $250 more for that Polk 9000 IHT if its worth it.

I'm thinking it might be unless you or someone else can convince me otherwise. The reason I say it might be worth it is because I definitely want a sound bar I do not want to do separate speakers and receiver. More importantly, the specs on Polk audio's website as well as Amazon state that it does reproduce 5.1 rather than downgrading it to 2.1. If I am going through "all the trouble" to get that special switcher, don't you think I should buy a sound bar that actually reproduces the 5.1 rather than 2.1?


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## ron mexico75

Also, how reliable are those switches with the optical out? Been reading some reviews and they seemed to be mixed with it working some of the time or just dying within a few days out of the box.


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## jimmie57

Am I confused ?
I thought the whole idea behind the soundbar was to Avoid running cables.
Now you are adding cables and switches, etc.
??????????


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## ron mexico75

jimmie57 said:


> Am I confused ?
> I thought the whole idea behind the soundbar was to Avoid running cables.
> Now you are adding cables and switches, etc.
> ??????????


Yes it was to prevent running speaker wire to a center speaker tower speakers and surround sound speakers as well as a pretty big price tag for a good receiver.

Having the HDMI switch would just entail running one HDMI cord to the TV. All the other HDMI cables would be "jumper cables "probably no more than 3 feet and would all run behind the bookcase on the same set of shelves. The only other table would be an optical digital cable going from the switcher into the back of the sound bar that could be run right along with the single HDMI cord going to the TV.

I do not want tower speakers on each side of my fireplace a huge center channel speaker on the mantle plus rear surroundsound speakers and then having to run and conceal wires to all of those.

This HDMI switch would go on the shelves with the Blu-ray Apple TV and DirecTV receiver. The only cables that would need to be run are the single HDMI and the single digital optical which I think can be concealed very easily.

I just want the best set up without any downgrade in sound that's why I was inquiring about using a switcher with an optical out cable Rather than running the sound out of the TV into the sound bar. From my understanding most TVs do not reproduce very good audio If using the digital optical out.


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## jimmie57

Go to a store that is close by that sells them, like a Best Buy, and see what some sound like.
You can't tell by reading about them and what others think.


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## ron mexico75

jimmie57 said:


> Go to a store that is close by that sells them, like a Best Buy, and see what some sound like.
> You can't tell by reading about them and what others think.


I wish I could but Best But only has the lower mid level ones or the extreme high level $2000 speaker bars. Im looking fior the upper mid level. Like the JBL SB400 or the Polk 9000IHT. NOBODY has these. Its always, samsung, bose or low mid level Klipsch.


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## jimmie57

I am close to Houston,TX.
They have the SB-1 bar in most of the stores in the Houston area.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Klipsch+-+Icon+SB+1+Soundbar+with+10%26%2334%3B+Wireless+Subwoofer/6263926.p?id=1218725178973&skuId=6263926

There is a button on the web page that you can check the Store Availability.

They also have this Polk one in the stores.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Polk+Audio+-+SurroundBar+5000+IHT+Soundbar+with+6-1/2%22+Wireless+Subwoofer/8418042.p?id=1218875430028&skuId=8418042


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## ron mexico75

thanks for your help Jimmy


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## kikkenit2

The top rated 5.1 soundbars go for $2k and up.

Even though you can't find it in stores (bummer)
the Polk 9000 is probably the best choice if you are
willing to spend $800.

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-Surround-Bar-9000/dp/B00AQY57AI
It was reviewed very well by audioholics. They do better reviews than most.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/satellite/polk-audio-surroundbar-9000-5000-iht-pre
And the home theater website review looks good too.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/polk-surroundbar-9000-iht-soundbar-ht-labs-measures
If that is too expensive that Klipsch 3.1 soundbar for $650 looks second best.

http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-HD-Theater-SB-Soundbar/dp/B0092QGSHM
Otherwise for less money the other models you discussed are the best choice.


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## ron mexico75

kikkenit2 said:


> The top rated 5.1 soundbars go for $2k and up.
> 
> Even though you can't find it in stores (bummer)
> the Polk 9000 is probably the best choice if you are
> willing to spend $800.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-Surround-Bar-9000/dp/B00AQY57AI
> It was reviewed very well by audioholics. They do better reviews than most.
> 
> http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/satellite/polk-audio-surroundbar-9000-5000-iht-pre
> And the home theater website review looks good too.
> 
> http://www.hometheater.com/content/polk-surroundbar-9000-iht-soundbar-ht-labs-measures
> If that is too expensive that Klipsch 3.1 soundbar for $650 looks second best.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-HD-Theater-SB-Soundbar/dp/B0092QGSHM
> Otherwise for less money the other models you discussed are the best choice.


Oh yeah I know. I was looking at a definitive technology which was $2000. Ha! Yeah right, I would NEVER spend that on a sound bar.

So you think the Polk huh? The one thing that intrigues me is the fact it actually does 5.1. Now I would assume that in order to get the most out of that, I need to go from an HDMI switch with optical out rather than using the optical out in the tv right?


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## kikkenit2

I can't find any confirmation on that model. I just searched for reviews on models 
ZT65, ZT60 & the VT60. None of them even try to connect a soundbar. The only
info we have to go on is the review of the ST60 by Home Theater.

The built-in audio of the ZT60 & VT60 is 2.1 stereo. Not a good sign.
That means they are downmixing 5.1 to 2.1 for the onboard speakers.
So they just send that same downmix to the audio out. Until recently 
there were no 5.1 soundbars and no big demand for 5.1 out.

When researching TV's I never even cared about onboard sound.
I send audio to my tv through hdmi, but I don't use. A receiver with
a basic 5 bookshelf speaker with 1 subwoofer setup sounds so much
better. Most tv reviews pretty much reflect this. It is 99% about the
picture. That is where Panny plasmas excel.

When researching soundbars I came across a decent Sonos for $700
from Amazon. Then I realized the wireless subwoofer was $700 also.
Wrong budget. When I scrolled down to the reviews, the very first one
had a huge rant about this very thing. Most new TV's are downmixing
the output. This quote is from the text in the first review. And the link
is where I copied it from. I'm not the only person that knows about this.

"Here's the issue though: Sonos says they want you to use your TV as a hub, all the inputs going to the TV and then optical audio out from the TV to the Playbar. Great idea - but the problem is that most TV's won't pass Dolby Digital (DD) 5.1 surround from HDMI to the digital/optical audio. If it's from the TV itself (such as Netflix on a smart TV) or input directly from the coaxial cable it will pass 5.1 through the optical port BUT not from HDMI. This is either required to be HDCP compliant or is a licensing/cost issue (not sure). There are a few tv's that do this but they're few and far between and hard to verify.

So if you have multiple sources (say an Xbox 360, Blu-Ray player, Apple TV, etc) there's no way for those sources to ever deliver 5.1 to the Playbar as Sonos intended (assuming you add a sub and some Play:3's to the mix). And you can't wire multiple inputs directly to the Playbar because they have a single input for the sake of simplicity. Normally I'm fine with this, but in light of the limitation with HDMI => optical pass through on TVs this became an oversight to me upon learning about the pass through issue. You can solve this by finding a TV or receiver that does pass through DD 5.1 through the optical audio, but you shouldn't have to. Alternatively you can use an optical audio switch, which is fine most of the time but may not work with a blu-ray player since Playbar lacks DTS support and are also limited on inputs, but this doesn't solve what to do for certain devices that don't have an optical audio port (e.g. most computers, Wii U, etc).

In the end you're left with a system that is capable of producing much better sound (especially if a sub and some Play:3s are added) that most everyone won't be able to hear and results in this not sounding as good as it costs. And that's just a shame to me." Quoted from William B. Partridge March 8, 2013

http://www.amazon.com/PLAYBAR-Soundbar-Wireless-Speaker-Streaming/dp/B00AEMGGU2/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1374786171&sr=1-1&keywords=sonos+soundbar


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