# DBSTalk.com First Look: AM21; OTA Add-On for the HR21



## Earl Bonovich

DBSTalk presents our First Look at the AM21.... The ATSC/OTA Add-On for the HR21 DVR.










DBSTalk's First Look

Thank to all that worked on the First Look and were part of the field trials.

Some Quick Notes:

The AM21 has *NOT* been released yet for public sale, there is no official date set.
The CSR Tier is not taking order for the AM21, nor do they have any more additional information on it.

For those that wish to discuss with the field testers, about the AM21... check out the Cutting Edge Forum.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123013

Once we have heard that it has been released for shipping and sale, we will make an announcement in the forum.


----------



## dave29

nice work as usual earl


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dave29 said:


> nice work as usual earl


I didn't write it... the field testers did... so the Kudo's go out to them.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

nice job on the first look guys!!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tyler_9110 said:


> When will it be available to buy? I know you can pre-order it, but when will it start shipping?


Please read the first post of this thread.

Aka... we don't have a date yet.


----------



## Cobra

the man that was in charge of my case, not a csr, said he was told end of march to early april, but take it with the grain of salt


----------



## peters4n6

i think on Page 5 under "SETUP" the line should read, "Once all connectors are in place, connect the power cable from the HR21 to the wall power outlet (or whatever, not the AM21)"

The way it currently reads, you plug the AM21 into the HR21 and then you plug the HR21 into the AM21. Right?


----------



## RobertE

peters4n6 said:


> i think on Page 5 under "SETUP" the line should read, "Once all connectors are in place, connect the power cable from the HR21 to the wall power outlet (or whatever, not the AM21)"
> 
> The way it currently reads, you plug the AM21 into the HR21 and then you plug the HR21 into the AM21. Right?


Confusing but correct.

Uplug the HR21
Plug AM-21 into HR21
Plug power cord previously removed from HR21 into AM21.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Very well done as usually thanks all that were involved


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

peters4n6 said:


> i think on Page 5 under "SETUP" the line should read, "Once all connectors are in place, connect the power cable from the HR21 to the wall power outlet (or whatever, not the AM21)"
> 
> The way it currently reads, you plug the AM21 into the HR21 and then you plug the HR21 into the AM21. Right?


The power cord that is currently plugged into the HR21 does get plugged into the AM21... and the AM21 has a 'jumper' that connects to the HR21...

Pretty cool design actually... that way, you don't have to run another cord....


----------



## Drew2k

Yes, it's a great design. Very convenient to set up. The biggest challenge was actually whether to put the AM21 on top or under the HR21!


----------



## peters4n6

RobertE said:


> Confusing but correct.
> 
> Uplug the HR21
> Plug AM-21 into HR21
> Plug power cord previously removed from HR21 into AM21.


I get it now. The first step is to remove the power cable from the back of the HR21...not disconnect the HR21 from your power source.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Nice work test team... Any notes on multi path performance?
On par with the HR20-700 or improved?


----------



## ziltomil

Does it work with the H21 also?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

ziltomil said:


> Does it work with the H21 also?


Not yet but I believe it is suppose too. The H21 needs the software still.


----------



## RobertE

Radio Enginerd said:


> Nice work test team... Any notes on multi path performance?
> On par with the HR20-700 or improved?


In my case its at least as good as the HR20s. I don't suffer from multipath where I am, all the towers are pretty much in the same spot, so...

I would say from knowing what others have reported, that I would say its safe to say that it is better than the HR20s in both multipath and overall reception.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

RobertE said:


> I would say from knowing what others have reported, that I would say its safe to say that it is better than the HR20s in both multipath and overall reception.


That is great news. Thanks for the update.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Radio Enginerd said:


> Nice work test team... Any notes on multi path performance?
> On par with the HR20-700 or improved?


I don't have any multi-path issues.

I do, in fact, have better reception then I do on my HR20-700.

Mike


----------



## spartanstew

Nice job guys (and nice photos Earl).

Looks like a winner.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

MicroBeta said:


> I don't have any multi-path issues.
> 
> I do, in fact, have better reception then I do on my HR20-700.
> 
> Mike


same here


----------



## bluemoon737

Earl Bonovich said:


> Please read the first post of this thread.
> 
> Aka... we don't have a date yet.


I know we don't know a release date or certain price yet, but do we know if this will be a purchase or lease...just curious?


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Nice job fellas.


----------



## bimplebean

If you record a local HD program off air, do you know what compression is applied by the HR-21? This would go toward figuring out how many hours of HD (or SD for that matter) programming one could store when recording OTA.

Thanks in advance for any info....


----------



## RunnerFL

MicroBeta said:


> I don't have any multi-path issues.
> 
> I do, in fact, have better reception then I do on my HR20-700.
> 
> Mike


I can say the same thing about mine.


----------



## RunnerFL

bimplebean said:


> If you record a local HD program off air, do you know what compression is applied by the HR-21? This would go toward figuring out how many hours of HD (or SD for that matter) programming one could store when recording OTA.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any info....


Same amount of space is taken up as an OTA recording on an HR20. That would mean Mpeg2.


----------



## Sixto

Those AM21's look pretty ... very nice looking!

Next, we need a disk-less HR2x with a AM21-type eSATA chassis 

HR2x fails ... just swap out the disk-less HR2x ...

Drive fails ... just swap out the disk in the AM21-type eSATA chassis.

Sorry ... was dreaming for a second ... back to topic ... the AM21!


----------



## RobertE

Sixto said:


> Those AM21's look pretty ... very nice looking!
> 
> Next, we need a disk-less HR2x with a AM21-type eSATA chassis
> 
> HR2x fails ... just swap out the disk-less HR2x ...
> 
> Drive fails ... just swap out the disk in the AM21-type eSATA chassis.
> 
> Sorry ... was dreaming for a second ... back to topic ... the AM21!


I suspect your dream may be in the plans, either through D* or a third party. All that is really needed is a little more height, say 1/2 to 3/4 an inch, place for a drive or two, and voila, a nice eSATA enclosure that matches everything.


----------



## Pinion413

An excellent job as always. My hat's off to all those involved. Great first look guys! :grin:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bluemoon737 said:


> I know we don't know a release date or certain price yet, but do we know if this will be a purchase or lease...just curious?


From what I understand... Purchased.


----------



## Thaedron

Nice work! (to both DirecTV and the field testers here at DBSTalk)


----------



## bluemoon737

Earl Bonovich said:


> From what I understand... Purchased.


Thanks Earl...got my eye on the 21P so this would be a necessary add-on (still no HD locals for Norfolk and no indication they are coming soon).


----------



## gulfwarvet

Nice work guys


----------



## ToddinVA

What generation is the OTA tuner? Is it better than what's in the HR20?


----------



## mhayes70

ToddinVA said:


> What generation is the OTA tuner? Is it better than what's in the HR20?


My opinion is that is the same as the HR20. It works pretty close to my HR20-700. But, my TV tuners works better.


----------



## Dolfid

Drew2k said:


> Yes, it's a great design. Very convenient to set up. The biggest challenge was actually whether to put the AM21 on top or under the HR21!


Why wasn't it in the HR21 to begin with? - real smooth move on Directv's part to not have a OTA tuner integrated - of course now they can charge extra for it!


----------



## mhayes70

Dolfid said:


> Why wasn't it in the HR21 to begin with? - real smooth move on Directv's part to not have a OTA tuner integrated - of course now they can charge extra for it!


They did that to reduce the cost of the HD DVR. The HR21 is cheaper then the HR20 was. If you need OTA then you can purchase the AM21 add on. There is a lot of people that have no need for OTA.


----------



## dmurphy

Nice job on the first look guys!! Keep 'em coming!


----------



## archer75

Dolfid said:


> Why wasn't it in the HR21 to begin with? - real smooth move on Directv's part to not have a OTA tuner integrated - of course now they can charge extra for it!


I agree. It should have been there to begin with. It's also sad that Direct TV still can't provide all my locals in HD.
That's one of the reasons i'm staying with dish. Better hardware. I do have an OTA port built in and can record on 3 tuners at once. Which I do from time to time.

Will this add on allow for DVRing from 3 tuners at once? All in HD? Will it integrate seamlessly into the program guide?


----------



## WERA689

It does integrate seamlessly with the guide....NO ISSUES there!
And, no, it doesn't allow for more than 2 simultaneous recordings (plus VOD, of course).


----------



## RobertE

archer75 said:


> I agree. It should have been there to begin with. It's also sad that Direct TV still can't provide all my locals in HD.
> That's one of the reasons i'm staying with dish. Better hardware. I do have an OTA port built in and can record on 3 tuners at once. Which I do from time to time.


:beatdeadhorse: for about the millionth time


archer75 said:


> Will this add on allow for DVRing from 3 tuners at once?


No & Yes. Two recordings from any of the four tuners (2 sat, 2 OTA) plus 1 from DoD.


archer75 said:


> All in HD?


Yes


archer75 said:


> Will it integrate seamlessly into the program guide?


Yes. The guide looks identical to that of HR20s with the OTA channels intergrated where they belong.


----------



## Drew2k

Dolfid said:


> Why wasn't it in the HR21 to begin with? - real smooth move on Directv's part to not have a OTA tuner integrated - of course now they can charge extra for it!


DIRECTV determined that they could save money on the cost of the HR21 by removing the OTA tuners, making it easier for customers to acquire the HR21. Still, the total cost of the HR21 and the AM21 is still less than the original cost of the HR20, so cost savings are still realized. To me, this was a smart move by DIRECTV.


----------



## ToddinVA

mhayes70 said:


> My opinion is that is the same as the HR20. It works pretty close to my HR20-700. But, my TV tuners works better.


I was hoping for something better. The tuner in the HR20 is mediocre at best. The one in my Samsung LCD TV is far better.


----------



## Chris Blount

Great work guys and congrats for being featured on Engadget!

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/17/a-first-look-at-the-directv-am21/


----------



## techieguy23

Has anyone tried plugging it into their PC and seeing if it will be recognized as a USB device? Would be kinda cool for a PC based OTA solution. I'm sure someone could find the drivers for the tuner chips somewhere!


----------



## waynebtx

Nice Work guys


----------



## gully_foyle

Drew2k said:


> DIRECTV determined that they could save money on the cost of the HR21 by removing the OTA tuners, making it easier for customers to acquire the HR21. Still, the total cost of the HR21 and the AM21 is still less than the original cost of the HR20, so cost savings are still realized. To me, this was a smart move by DIRECTV.


I guess some people figure if DirecTV is giving DVRs away for free then removing a function is somehow gouging the customer.


----------



## gully_foyle

One thing I don't see mentioned... is there an NTSC tuner mode? It mentions needing to have HD service enabled, but no mention if you can watch/record regular TV if it isn't. Assuming anyone wants to, of course.


----------



## say-what

kcmurphy88 said:


> One thing I don't see mentioned... is there an NTSC tuner mode? It mentions needing to have HD service enabled, but no mention if you can watch/record regular TV if it isn't. Assuming anyone wants to, of course.


DirecTV's policy is that you need to pay the HD Access fee to access any live or recorded HD programming, including OTA, on the HR2x series. The AM21 is an ATSC/Digital tuner, it does not have NTSC capabilities, so it is useless without paying the HD Access fee.


----------



## sbl

My experience is that the tuner in the AM21 is much better than the one in the HR10. I have not used the OTA tuner in my HR20 so I can't comment on it.


----------



## houskamp

kcmurphy88 said:


> One thing I don't see mentioned... is there an NTSC tuner mode? It mentions needing to have HD service enabled, but no mention if you can watch/record regular TV if it isn't. Assuming anyone wants to, of course.


It's ATSC only.. as all OTA broadcasts will be ATSC next year (all tho not all HD) there is no reason to add NTSC tuning..


----------



## VHS or Beta

bimplebean said:


> If you record a local HD program off air, do you know what compression is applied by the HR-21? This would go toward figuring out how many hours of HD (or SD for that matter) programming one could store when recording OTA.





RunnerFL said:


> Same amount of space is taken up as an OTA recording on an HR20. That would mean Mpeg2.


Are the satellite-fed HD locals also Mpeg2, or are they Mpeg4? Given the choice between recording from the OTA tuner or the DirecTV feed of the same HD channel, would the D* version take less disk space?


----------



## azarby

techieguy23 said:


> Has anyone tried plugging it into their PC and seeing if it will be recognized as a USB device? Would be kinda cool for a PC based OTA solution. I'm sure someone could find the drivers for the tuner chips somewhere!


There are no PC drivers avaialble.

bob


----------



## cartrivision

bimplebean said:


> If you record a local HD program off air, do you know what compression is applied by the HR-21? This would go toward figuring out how many hours of HD (or SD for that matter) programming one could store when recording OTA.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any info....


Neither the AM21 or the HR21 applies any compression. The OTA signal is already encoded with MPEG2 compression before it is broadcast by your local TV station. All that the AM21 does is pass the raw MPEG2 data "as is" to the DVR to be recorded to the disk.


----------



## cartrivision

VHS or Beta said:


> Are the satellite-fed HD locals also Mpeg2, or are they Mpeg4? Given the choice between recording from the OTA tuner or the DirecTV feed of the same HD channel, would the D* version take less disk space?


The locals off the sat are MPEG4 and anything from the OTA tuner will be MPEG2, so yes recording the sat feed of the local will use up less disk space.


----------



## Jeremy W

techieguy23 said:


> Has anyone tried plugging it into their PC and seeing if it will be recognized as a USB device? Would be kinda cool for a PC based OTA solution. I'm sure someone could find the drivers for the tuner chips somewhere!


It shows up as two devices, both called DIRECTV USB Tuner Device v1. You don't need drivers for the tuner chips, because the computer doesn't talk directly to them. You'd need custom drivers for the AM21, which will likely never be available.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

There are a lot of other ATSC tuners available for PCs at a fair price, other than the thrill of the hack I don't see a lot of reason to support AM21 on a PC.


----------



## docderwood

Assuming the Tuner is better...Can I plug it into my HR20 and use bypass the crummy HR20 tuners?


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Good job guys....

Patiently waiting for the official release now so I can buy one....
Is it released yet?

How about now?


Well?....


F5, F5, F5, ...

Someone PM me the second this thing hits the WEB for ordering from Directv!

:nono2:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

docderwood said:


> Assuming the Tuner is better...Can I plug it into my HR20 and use bypass the crummy HR20 tuners?


No... the HR20 is not and will not be compatible with the AM21


----------



## tkrandall

I would really appreciate someone that uses OTA and that has both the HR20 and and HR21 testing this AM21 device and comparing its OTA reception. Preferebaly someone with reception "issues".

I live only 20 miles from the stations but have weak signal and/or multipath issues (I live a couple of miles behind a 600 ft ridge in the line of site to Atlanta stations) and the HR20 and is no where near as good as my Samsung DLP's at holding signal. I really would like to know if the AM21 tuner is better than the HR20 OTA tuner.


----------



## tcusta00

tkrandall said:


> I would really appreciate someone that uses OTA and that has both the HR20 and and HR21 testing this AM21 device and comparing its OTA reception. Preferebaly someone with reception "issues".
> 
> I live only 20 miles from the stations but have weak signal and/or multipath issues (I live a couple of miles behind a 600 ft ridge in the line of site to Atlanta stations) and the HR20 and is no where near as good as my Samsung DLP's at holding signal. I really would like to know if the AM21 tuner is be better than the HR20 OTA tuner.


You may want to poke your head into this thread too - there was some discussion about reception earlier on.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

tkrandall said:


> I would really appreciate someone that uses OTA and that has both the HR20 and and HR21 testing this AM21 device and comparing its OTA reception. Preferebaly someone with reception "issues".
> 
> I live only 20 miles from the stations but have weak signal and/or multipath issues (I live a couple of miles behind a 600 ft ridge in the line of site to Atlanta stations) and the HR20 and is no where near as good as my Samsung DLP's at holding signal. I really would like to know if the AM21 tuner is be better than the HR20 OTA tuner.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1504347&postcount=20


----------



## jacmyoung

I don't know if this has been asked, why is there no OTA guide screen capture? Is it exactly the same as HR20? If so where can I see one?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The guide looks just like the HR20.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know if this has been asked, why is there no OTA guide screen capture? Is it exactly the same as HR20? If so where can I see one?


it appears exactly the same as the HR20... i'm sure there's a screen shot around here somewhere... if not, I will post one this afternoon for you...


----------



## say-what

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know if this has been asked, why is there no OTA guide screen capture? Is it exactly the same as HR20? If so where can I see one?


Exactly the same as the HR20 with OTA activated. You could just look at your HR20 with OTA in the guide and see the same thing you'd see with the HR21/AM21 combo. There's no way to tell the 2 guides with OTA apart, that's why there's no separate pic.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Impressive review! All of these have been worthy of publication - much better than review sites being staffed by professional reviewers!


----------



## hasan

ToddinVA said:


> I was hoping for something better. The tuner in the HR20 is mediocre at best. The one in my Samsung LCD TV is far better.


Here is my initial evaluation of the two units. I'm about 30 miles from the tower complex.

The first set of numbers after the channel number is the HR20-700 signal level on tuner1/tuner2. The next set is the HR21-200/AM21 on tuner1/tuner2. Following that is a comment on "bounce" which is an indirect measure of multi-path.

Channel HR20-700 HR21-200/AM21

5-1 85/85 93/93 (less bounce on AM21 as well)
8-1 100/100 100/100 (no bounce on either receiver)
8-2 100/100 100/100 (ditto)
11-1 ditto ditto
11-2 ditto ditto
13-1 ditto ditto
17-1 80/80 83/83 (less bounce on AM21 as well)
23-1 54-71/56-84 69-77/67-83 (lots of bounce on both, AM21 better)

Both receivers fed by the same antenna, balanced signal levels, fine tuned OTA setup (gain distribution, preamps, attenuators etc)

The AM21 tuner is better in both domains:

a. Bit-Error-Rate (as shown by the higher percentage on all non-full strength stations)

b. Maintaining BER in the face of multi-path (bounce). The bounce range in the AM21 is considerably less on those signals where bounce/multi-path is a problem.

Both the HR20-700 and the HR21-200/AM21 produce a perfect OTA signal at first glance. Lots more looking to do at the PQ of the HR21-200/AM21.

The AM21 tuner is every bit the equal of the tuner in my Sammy HL-R5667W, which has been outstanding from day one.

GREAT START D*! Congrats on a job well done.


----------



## LameLefty

Great job on the First Look, folks!  :up:

Hasan - excellent job quantifying relative performance. :goodjob:


----------



## evane

Another question that relates to recording more than 2 shows. Can you be recording two shows say 2 sat and be watching a OTA channel (or recording a sat and ota channel and be watching a different Sat channel?)

That is my bigggest grip with almost any DVR out there where the VIP Dish series excels (not trying to beat the horse again just really want to know) 

If not i really hope DTV removes that restriction it would be a gold mine for attracting dish customers and other customers in general due HD content.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I should have said it earlier... Congrats on another great document!! They get better and better! 

Of course, I added a link to it in the First Looks sticky in the General Discussion forum.


----------



## Xram

Nice write up gentlemen.


----------



## say-what

evane said:


> Another question that relates to recording more than 2 shows. Can you be recording two shows say 2 sat and be watching a OTA channel (or recording a sat and ota channel and be watching a different Sat channel?)


No, it works exactly like the HR20 does - once two input streams (OTA and/or SAT) are being recorded, you cannot change to another channel to watch a 3rd stream live.


----------



## jacmyoung

say-what said:


> Exactly the same as the HR20 with OTA activated. You could just look at your HR20 with OTA in the guide and see the same thing you'd see with the HR21/AM21 combo. There's no way to tell the 2 guides with OTA apart, that's why there's no separate pic.


I don't have an HR20 so a screen capture will be nice, thanks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jacmyoung said:


> I don't have an HR20 so a screen capture will be nice, thanks.


I don't have a screen capture handy... I am sure someone else will grab one and post it.

In a nutshell.

Look at your guide today:

Channel 5 - SAT HD
Channel 5 - SAT SD

You would have a third line
Channel 5-1 - OTA. The Channel number will be in a slight shade darker then the other two.

Other then that... it looks and functions identically the same as any other channel.


----------



## say-what

I don't have one handy either and the only one I can locate:









For ch 9, the listings are in the following order:

SAT HD
SAT SD
OTA


----------



## Phil T

I can verify that is my screen shot from the AM21 immediately after installation. Sorry my camera isn't the best.


----------



## say-what

Phil T said:


> I can verify that is my screen shot from the AM21 immediately after installation. Sorry my camera isn't the best.


I usually have to take a ton of pics before I can get a screen shot that's halfway decent myself. Anyway, it gets the point across.


----------



## FunkyMonk93

How about software updates? Will the AM21 be able to piggyback on software updates from the HR21?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

FunkyMonk93 said:


> How about software updates? Will the AM21 be able to piggyback on software updates from the HR21?


The software update that the HR21 gets is the same software for the AM21.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

FunkyMonk93 said:


> How about software updates? Will the AM21 be able to piggyback on software updates from the HR21?


AM21 doesn't get any software updates, specifically on the unit itself.

All of it's software is part of the HR21 code.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

jacmyoung said:


> I don't have an HR20 so a screen capture will be nice, thanks.


here ya go... the '-1, -2, -3' are OTA channels...


----------



## jacmyoung

AirRocker said:


> here ya go... the '-1, -2, -3' are OTA channels...


Very nice thank you.


----------



## tkrandall

hasan said:


> Here is my initial evaluation of the two units. I'm about 30 miles from the tower complex.
> 
> The first set of numbers after the channel number is the HR20-700 signal level on tuner1/tuner2. The next set is the HR21-200/AM21 on tuner1/tuner2. Following that is a comment on "bounce" which is an indirect measure of multi-path.
> 
> Channel HR20-700 HR21-200/AM21
> 
> 5-1 85/85 93/93 (less bounce on AM21 as well)
> 8-1 100/100 100/100 (no bounce on either receiver)
> 8-2 100/100 100/100 (ditto)
> 11-1 ditto ditto
> 11-2 ditto ditto
> 13-1 ditto ditto
> 17-1 80/80 83/83 (less bounce on AM21 as well)
> 23-1 54-71/56-84 69-77/67-83 (lots of bounce on both, AM21 better)
> 
> Both receivers fed by the same antenna, balanced signal levels, fine tuned OTA setup (gain distribution, preamps, attenuators etc)
> 
> The AM21 tuner is better in both domains:
> 
> a. Bit-Error-Rate (as shown by the higher percentage on all non-full strength stations)
> 
> b. Maintaining BER in the face of multi-path (bounce). The bounce range in the AM21 is considerably less on those signals where bounce/multi-path is a problem.
> 
> Both the HR20-700 and the HR21-200/AM21 produce a perfect OTA signal at first glance. Lots more looking to do at the PQ of the HR21-200/AM21.
> 
> The AM21 tuner is every bit the equal of the tuner in my Sammy HL-R5667W, which has been outstanding from day one.
> 
> GREAT START D*! Congrats on a job well done.


Hasan - thanks.

Now, I wonder how much would it cost me to get DirecTV to swap my HR20 for an HR21?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tkrandall said:


> Hasan - thanks.
> 
> Now, I wonder how much would it cost me to get DirecTV to swap my HR20 for an HR21?


$199 + $59


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Earl Bonovich said:


> $199 + $59


Don't tease me Earl, you know some of us are refreshing the screen at the directv.com site just looking for the $59 price tag for the AM21 to appear so we can order it...


----------



## tcusta00

Spanky_Partain said:


> Don't tease me Earl, you know some of us are refreshing the screen at the directv.com site just looking for the $59 price tag for the AM21 to appear so we can order it...


And here I thought I was the only one..:lol: :nono: :lol:


----------



## hasan

tkrandall said:


> Hasan - thanks.
> 
> Now, I wonder how much would it cost me to get DirecTV to swap my HR20 for an HR21?


Well....if you have a failure and the protection plan, chances are good that you will get an HR21 of some flavor. Of course, you have to wait for the AM21 to become available.

I have an HR20-700 that has been acting squirrely for a few months on one tuner. If it continues this summer, that's exactly what I'm going to do.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Spanky_Partain said:


> Don't tease me Earl, you know some of us are refreshing the screen at the directv.com site just looking for the $59 price tag for the AM21 to appear so we can order it...


$59 was a number mentioned at CES. I took it as being pretty firm, as did Earl,but things could always change.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I have seen other references and people (that would know), that the price is going to be $59


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

Yes, I also confirmed $59.99 as the retail list price. Not much dealer margin, but it will sell for $59.99, likely with free shipping. We're taking pre-orders beginning the morning of 3/24. Sadly limited allocations at the start.

-Robert


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well then I think that answers that.


----------



## tkrandall

Why is it that DTV still makes it to where you cannot specify a certain model receiver/dvr? I don't understand that. 

Let's say you call them up and order an AM21 and and HD- DVR. Yet they are unable/unwilling to guarantee you that you will get an HR21 and not an HR20? This makes no sense to me.


----------



## tcusta00

tkrandall said:


> Why is it that DTV still makes it to where you cannot specify a certain model receiver/dvr? I don't understand that.
> 
> Let's say you call them up and order an AM21 and and HD- DVR. Yet they are unable/unwilling to guarantee you that you will get an HR21 and not an HR20? This makes no sense to me.


I'm sure that once the AM21 is on the market and you specify that you need OTA you will either get an HR20 or an HR21 with the AM21... they're functionally the same according to many on here


----------



## LameLefty

> they're functionally the same according to many on here


They are.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tkrandall said:


> Why is it that DTV still makes it to where you cannot specify a certain model receiver/dvr? I don't understand that.
> 
> Let's say you call them up and order an AM21 and and HD- DVR. Yet they are unable/unwilling to guarantee you that you will get an HR21 and not an HR20? This makes no sense to me.


HR20's have pretty much ceased production.
And the allotment of them is very small.

The chances on that occuring is going to be very low... and getting lower and lower every day.


----------



## larrysano

say-what said:


> No, it works exactly like the HR20 does - once two input streams (OTA and/or SAT) are being recorded, you cannot change to another channel to watch a 3rd stream live.


Sorry for extending this topic, but I'm a newcomer to the DirecTV side of things. Is this merely a software limitation with the HR21+AM21? There are 3 tuners present, why not 3 program streams? This limitation could indeed be a deal-breaker in my decision to leave Dish. Thanks!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

larrysano said:


> Sorry for extending this topic, but I'm a newcomer to the DirecTV side of things. Is this merely a software limitation with the HR21+AM21? There are 3 tuners present, why not 3 program streams? This limitation could indeed be a deal-breaker in my decision to leave Dish. Thanks!


We don't know if it is hardware or software, or maybe a combination of both.

Either way... that is what it is, and from previous conversations... there are no plans to allow more then 2 broadcast streams at once.


----------



## tkrandall

LameLefty said:


> They are.


user interface, yes. but what about OTA reception performance? I thought I was reading by many here that the AM21 has improved OTA tuner performance over the HR20's OTA tuners. That is the sole issue I am concerned about at this point - better OTA performance.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

While there are many that did have improved OTA performance...

OTA is so subjective to your area... it is going to be hard to predict if you will see any change in performance, until you actually hook it up.


----------



## mhayes70

I agree with Earl. For me there wasn't really any difference in reception between my HR20 and my AM21.


----------



## tfederov

mhayes70 said:


> I agree with Earl. For me there wasn't really any difference in reception between my HR20 and my AM21.


And to add to that, it's a digital signal we're getting so it is either there or it isn't. I've yet to have reception issues (and that goes for all of my receivers using an antenna, not just the AM21).


----------



## evan_s

tfederov said:


> And to add to that, it's a digital signal we're getting so it is either there or it isn't. I've yet to have reception issues (and that goes for all of my receivers using an antenna, not just the AM21).


It's definitely a much quicker drop off than analogue but I'm sure it's strictly accurate to say it's either perfect or nothing at all. I've used the tuner in my TV and there is a somewhat small range where you can end up with blocking, audio drop outs or other artifacts similar to what you see with Sat but it does stay at perfect until this narrow band and it then it's totally lost.


----------



## Scarpad

Rumor has it my area (Springfield Mass) will be getting HD Locals soon , of course if you add the usual 6 month delay, if I bought the add on, could I resell the unit? If Owned I imagine so.


----------



## say-what

Scarpad said:


> Rumor has it my area (Springfield Mass) will be getting HD Locals soon , of course if you add the usual 6 month delay, if I bought the add on, could I resell the unit? If Owned I imagine so.


If you get an AM21 and DirecTV later adds locals, why not just keep the AM21 as a backup? DirecTV provides me with the big 4 in HD, but not my PBS station. Even when PBS is added, I'll keep the AM21 connected as a backup.


----------



## tkrandall

plus the sub channels that are only OTA


----------



## tcusta00

plus your out of market locals - in Scarpad's case, Hartford maybe?


----------



## bpratt

plus when the dish gets coated with snow you can still record locals.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Plus you get more LED's in the entertainment center...that makes it look very busy and impressive.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Spanky_Partain said:


> Plus you get more LED's in the entertainment center...that makes it look very busy and impressive.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## tcusta00

Spanky_Partain said:


> Plus you get more LED's in the entertainment center...that makes it look very busy and impressive.


And if that's not reason enough then you're no tech geek at all!


----------



## Rickrd

Any word on when the AM21 will be released for purchase?


----------



## P Smith

I'm wondering why the tuner have two demod chips (ATI T311) ?
Looks like it is capable to provide two OTA channels to HR21.


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

Rickrd said:


> Any word on when the AM21 will be released for purchase?


I was told DIRECTV is holding all units for another week or two so they can do more testing before releasing them. So looks like the first week of April and pre-orders are going be begin on Monday 3/24.

-Robert


----------



## sbl

P Smith said:


> I'm wondering why the tuner have two demod chips (ATI T311) ?
> Looks like it is capable to provide two OTA channels to HR21.


It is.


----------



## P Smith

sbl said:


> It is.


Oh, how we can utilize both ?


----------



## Smuuth

P Smith said:


> Oh, how we can utilize both ?


Perhaps by recording two OTA channels at the same time?


----------



## Jeremy W

Smuuth said:


> Perhaps by recording two OTA channels at the same time?


What a novel idea!


----------



## tcusta00

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I was told DIRECTV is holding all units for another week or two so they can do more testing before releasing them. So looks like the first week of April and pre-orders are going be begin on Monday 3/24.
> 
> -Robert


Who told you that? I was under the impression that DirecTV never does pre-orders for anything.

I would be curious to see if they're going to limit the first round/first few days of orders to those with no LiL coverage at all and only an HR21 on the account and then open it up to everyone else later on.


----------



## Jeremy W

tcusta00 said:


> Who told you that? I was under the impression that DirecTV never does pre-orders for anything.


Not DirecTV, private sellers, which includes DTV TiVo Dealer.


----------



## tcusta00

Oh - It sounded like DirecTV was going to be taking pre-orders from his post. :sure:

Pre-orders began weeks ago if we're talking about third party dealers.


----------



## Jeremy W

tcusta00 said:


> Oh - It sounded like DirecTV was going to be taking pre-orders from his post. :sure:


It does kind of sound that way, now that I look at it a second time...


----------



## gb4fan

Any word on which retailers will carry this?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

gb4fan said:


> Any word on which retailers will carry this?


Not sure what all ones but solidsignal.com will carry it when released.


----------



## jorb

Can you use the am21 on the hr20 dvr


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

jorb said:


> Can you use the am21 on the hr20 dvr


Welcome to DBSTalk

The AM21 will not work with the HR20's.


----------



## tcusta00

jorb said:


> Can you use the am21 on the hr20 dvr


no


----------



## jorb

what generation atsc chipset do they use in the am21


----------



## jorb

tcusta00 said:


> no


what generation atsc chipset do they use in the am21


----------



## P Smith

jorb said:


> what generation atsc chipset do they use in the am21


Check AMD/ATI web site about ATI Theater 311 chip.


----------



## Scarpad

tcusta00 said:


> And if that's not reason enough then you're no tech geek at all!


All good reasons you sold me , Now if I could just buy one !


----------



## tcusta00

Scarpad said:


> All good reasons you sold me , Now if I could just buy one !


Patience, grasshopper! 

(I'm such a hypocrite - I want it *now* too!)


----------



## Scarpad

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I was told DIRECTV is holding all units for another week or two so they can do more testing before releasing them. So looks like the first week of April and pre-orders are going be begin on Monday 3/24.
> 
> -Robert


Boo..Hisss.. Not to you Robert Btw.. to Direct TV. I have nothing but great words to you I just purchased an HR21 from you and I had it , with Free Shipping mind you,, in a day.. if that's not great service I don't know what is.. I'll be preordering Monday.


----------



## playboy1972

Stupid question.............. Does this mean we can get OTA reception through the D* Dish or do we still have to purchase an OTA dish ourselves?


----------



## sbl

playboy1972 said:


> Stupid question.............. Does this mean we can get OTA reception through the D* Dish or do we still have to purchase an OTA dish ourselves?


You need an OTA antenna that works for digital broadcast TV in order to use the AM21. If DirecTV offers your locals in HD over the satellite and you're content with the selection, then you don't need an AM21. The AM21 is for those who want to also receive direct broadcasts from local stations (usually more channels than DirecTV offers.)


----------



## Drew2k

playboy1972 said:


> Stupid question.............. Does this mean we can get OTA reception through the D* Dish or do we still have to purchase an OTA dish ourselves?


Check out these two sites to find the OTA stations in your area and determine what type of antenna you will need:

TV Fool - TV Signal Locator

AntennaWeb.org


----------



## playboy1972

sbl said:


> You need an OTA antenna that works for digital broadcast TV in order to use the AM21. If DirecTV offers your locals in HD over the satellite and you're content with the selection, then you don't need an AM21. The AM21 is for those who want to also receive direct broadcasts from local stations (usually more channels than DirecTV offers.)


Living in the Washington area, I do get my locals in HD but could I get a dish to pick up Baltimores locals or am I just being greedy?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

sbl said:


> You need an OTA antenna that works for digital broadcast TV in order to use the AM21. If DirecTV offers your locals in HD over the satellite and you're content with the selection, then you don't need an AM21. The AM21 is for those who want to also receive direct broadcasts from local stations (usually more channels than DirecTV offers.)


I'm using a 15yr old antenna that I got at Radio Shack on my AM21.

I get 100% signal strength on both OTA tunners and the picture, audio, and recordings are great.

Right now I get CPTV(PBS) in HD, which I don't get with Directv.

Mike


----------



## 94SupraTT

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I was told DIRECTV is holding all units for another week or two so they can do more testing before releasing them. So looks like the first week of April and pre-orders are going be begin on Monday 3/24.
> 
> -Robert


I'll be calling them in the AM trying to pre-order one.


----------



## Grentz

For those that keep asking about the Generation!:
I believe the ATI Theater 311 is a 5th Gen chip, but I am not 100% sure. That is my guess though.

Remember there is a TON more that goes into signal strength then just the generation...even in the unit there is more than just the decoder chip that will contribute to signal strength or lack there of.

You dont just buy ATSC tuners based on the generation as it is only part of the signal strength, that is why it is not a frequently listed spec.


----------



## sbl

playboy1972 said:


> Living in the Washington area, I do get my locals in HD but could I get a dish to pick up Baltimores locals or am I just being greedy?


Not a "dish", but an antenna. No reason why not. Go to TV Fool and see what it suggests you'd be able to receive.


----------



## tcusta00

playboy1972 said:


> Living in the Washington area, I do get my locals in HD but could I get a dish to pick up Baltimores locals or am I just being greedy?





sbl said:


> Not a "dish", but an antenna. No reason why not. Go to TV Fool and see what it suggests you'd be able to receive.


That's my plan, only other way around - I live in Baltimore and plan to pick up DC and Harrisburg stations with this bad boy and a decent antenna.


----------



## 94SupraTT

Has anyone tried to pre-order a AM21 today from D*?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

94SupraTT said:


> Has anyone tried to pre-order a AM21 today from D*?


They are not available for Pre-Order from DirecTV yet.


----------



## ysiamrich

Hi - long time lurker first time poster. I recently upgraded to the H21-700, networked, added an e-sata drive based on advice from this site (THANK YOU! - works great). 

It's crazy how much I am looking forward to this AM21 - I shouldn't be this excited to give someone my money. Can't wait till I can pre-order.


----------



## mhayes70

ysiamrich said:


> Hi - long time lurker first time poster. I recently upgraded to the H21-700, networked, added an e-sata drive based on advice from this site (THANK YOU! - works great).
> 
> It's crazy how much I am looking forward to this AM21 - I shouldn't be this excited to give someone my money. Can't wait till I can pre-order.


:welcome_s Your not crazy. You are just like the rest of us.  I was the same way when I got it. The AM21 works just like the OTA on the HR20. You will enjoy it.


----------



## tcusta00

ysiamrich said:


> Hi - long time lurker first time poster. I recently upgraded to the H21-700, networked, added an e-sata drive based on advice from this site (THANK YOU! - works great).
> 
> It's crazy how much I am looking forward to this AM21 - I shouldn't be this excited to give someone my money. Can't wait till I can pre-order.


Here's your official geek badge, and welcome to the club!


----------



## tkrandall

Does the HR20 have a different chipset for ATSC than does the AM-21 (i.e. not the ATI T311)?


----------



## Jeremy W

tkrandall said:


> Does the HR20 have a different chipset for ATSC than does the AM-21 (i.e. not the ATI T311)?


Yes. IIRC, the HR20 uses a Broadcom chip.


----------



## tkrandall

Jeremy W said:


> Yes. IIRC, the HR20 uses a Broadcom chip.


thanks.


----------



## Scarpad

I've gone back to watching the SD Locals on the new HR21 I just received and man it is painful, I Need the AM21 Now............


whew feel bett er...


----------



## HoTat2

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I was told DIRECTV is holding all units for another week or two so they can do more testing before releasing them. So looks like the first week of April and pre-orders are going be begin on Monday 3/24.
> 
> -Robert


I still see no indication of pre-order offers for the AM21 anywhere on the Value Electronics web-site as of yet...


----------



## RobertDeckman

I just ordered the AM21 from the **************** website.


----------



## tcusta00

RobertDeckman said:


> I just ordered the AM21 from the **************** website.


come again?


----------



## HoTat2

RobertDeckman said:


> I just ordered the AM21 from the **************** website.


From the Value Electronics site? Where exactly? I can't find it anywhere and the site has no product search option that I can see.


----------



## tcusta00

HoTat2 said:


> From the Value Electronics site? Where exactly? I can't find it anywhere and the site has no product search option that I can see.


Ah, I see you speak ********** :lol:


----------



## tcloyd

I currently have the HD DirecTivo w/ 3LNB dish w/ antenna and diplexor. Will any of my cabling need to be changed when I get the HR21 & AM 21 with the 5 LNB dish to receive OTA programming?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tcloyd said:


> I currently have the HD DirecTivo w/ 3LNB dish w/ antenna and diplexor. Will any of my cabling need to be changed when I get the HR21 & AM 21 with the 5 LNB dish to receive OTA programming?


Yes.
You can not diplex in the OTA with the 5LNB.


----------



## RobertDeckman

I ordered it from the V.E. web site. When I typed the full name of the company, this system replaced it with asterics. To find the product, go to their main page, and scroll down about half way.


----------



## tcloyd

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes.
> You can not diplex in the OTA with the 5LNB.


Thanks for the response Earl. Can you point me to a good resource as to what I will need to do? I'm guessing I'll have to have a separate cable run for the antenna?


----------



## Rakul

Just placed my order as well. Miss the local weather channel on my HR21! Now to just buy a SWM and I'm set!



RobertDeckman said:


> I ordered it from the V.E. web site. When I typed the full name of the company, this system replaced it with asterics. To find the product, go to their main page, and scroll down about half way.


----------



## HoTat2

RobertDeckman said:


> I ordered it from the V.E. web site. When I typed the full name of the company, this system replaced it with asterics. To find the product, go to their main page, and scroll down about half way.


OK, finally found it and got it ordered. 

Thanks for the directions Robert.


----------



## Grentz

Why is VE censored? Some reason we should not use them?


----------



## Fluthy

Why does the VE site says shipping the first part of May 2008? I thought these were release next week or the week after? Just wanted to know if I should wait for it to be at BB or order form a website.


----------



## mhayes70

NickFluth said:


> Why does the VE site says shipping the first part of May 2008? I thought these were release next week or the week after? Just wanted to know if I should wait for it to be at BB or order form a website.


To my knowledge a date has not been announced yet. But, since we are starting to see pre orders it should be real soon.


----------



## GAM

NickFluth said:


> Why does the VE site says shipping the first part of May 2008? I thought these were release next week or the week after? Just wanted to know if I should wait for it to be at BB or order form a website.


VE says it is Scheduled to ship the first week of April.


----------



## sbl

I'd guess that VE is censored because they don't advertise here. I know that was done over at TCF. As far as I know, VE is an honest and outstanding supporter of the DirecTV and DVR community.


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, thanks guys! Got my order in today! PEEE BEEE ESSSSS IN TIME-SHIFTED AICH DEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BrandonH

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes.
> You can not diplex in the OTA with the 5LNB.


I've got my Bedroom HR20 diplexed, you just have to move the bbc before the first diplexer instead of hooking up the bbc to the back of the receiver, works great.


----------



## bukzin

sbl said:


> I'd guess that VE is censored because they don't advertise here. I know that was done over at TCF. As far as I know, VE is an honest and outstanding supporter of the DirecTV and DVR community.


Do you have a link to 'TCF'?

Thanks


----------



## bukzin

BrandonH said:


> I've got my Bedroom HR20 diplexed, you just have to move the bbc before the first diplexer instead of hooking up the bbc to the back of the receiver, works great.


What is the part number of your diplexer? Can I find it locally?

Thanks


----------



## ToddinVA

bukzin said:


> Do you have a link to 'TCF'?
> 
> Thanks


www.tivocommunity.com


----------



## BrandonH

bukzin said:


> What is the part number of your diplexer? Can I find it locally?
> 
> Thanks


I can look when I get home, but I got them about 5 years ago and don't even remember where I ordered them from now.

BrandonH


----------



## Maruuk

Radio Shack makes the one I use, still available. Works great. I'm using it to power the old Terk clip-on on a 5 LNB dish. Just threw the amp away since the Terk has its own. But it's too uni-directional so I have to move up to one of the bi-directional Winegards.


----------



## DallasDave

Sorry, there's probably several threads on this, but I couldn't find them.

In my area, DirectTV provides most of the major local channels (except PBS, which I rarely watch) in HD. 

Assuming DirectTV compresses its local HD signals to conserve on bandwidth (more so than the local broadcasters do OTA) do most folks notice a significant benefit from viewing local HD OTA versus HD via satellite? And if there isn't a noticeable difference now, do you think there may become a bigger difference if/when DirecTV compresses signals further to provide more channels?


----------



## say-what

DallasDave said:


> Sorry, there's probably several threads on this, but I couldn't find them.
> 
> In my area, DirectTV provides most of the major local channels (except PBS, which I rarely watch) in HD.
> 
> Assuming DirectTV compresses its local HD signals to conserve on bandwidth (more so than the local broadcasters do OTA) do most folks notice a significant benefit from viewing local HD OTA versus HD via satellite?


Well, mpeg-4 is a different compression scheme than the mpeg-2 that the OTA signals are broadcast in originally. In my area, the HD locals provided by DirecTV are excellent. I don't use the OTA for those. I'm really just using it for 1 PBS signal. Can't say for other markets.



> And if there isn't a noticeable difference now, do you think there may become a bigger difference if/when DirecTV compresses signals further to provide more channels?


That's certainly a loaded question filled with assumptions - no one's ever said that DirecTV would further compress signals to add more HD channels. In fact, DirecTV just launched a new satellite (D11) to increase HD capacity and will launch another (D12) next year to do the same. In other words, until what you're asking about happens, it's all speculation.


----------



## btmoore

DallasDave said:


> Sorry, there's probably several threads on this, but I couldn't find them.
> 
> In my area, DirectTV provides most of the major local channels (except PBS, which I rarely watch) in HD.
> 
> Assuming DirectTV compresses its local HD signals to conserve on bandwidth (more so than the local broadcasters do OTA) do most folks notice a significant benefit from viewing local HD OTA versus HD via satellite? And if there isn't a noticeable difference now, do you think there may become a bigger difference if/when DirecTV compresses signals further to provide more channels?


I do, other may not. I see the difference on how the OTA is better and have even posted examples of the over compression issues. More recently, I forgot that I changed my filter to the CIR from my normal filter which blocks the D* locals. This made the D* locals visible to me again and I accidentally switched to the D* rebroadcast of CBS to watch some of the NCAA games, I was having all kinds of macroblocking and green blocking when I realized it was the D* rebroadcast I switched to the OTA and the picture was back to perfect. If you can get OTA go for it, you will get the picture as it originated from the studio before D* mucks with it then you can use the D* as a back up if you have an antenna problem.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Done deal, the promised price of $59.99, free shipping, and no tax. Got to love the internet for purchases.


----------



## tcusta00

Spanky_Partain said:


> Done deal, the promised price of $59.99, free shipping, and no tax. Got to love the internet for purchases.


Got mine (pre)ordered yesterday too! Can't wait. (if I had a nickel for every time I've said that about this stupid box)


----------



## btmoore

say-what said:


> That's certainly a loaded question filled with assumptions - *no one's ever said that DirecTV would further compress signals to add more HD channels*. In fact, DirecTV just launched a new satellite (D11) to increase HD capacity and will launch another (D12) next year to do the same. In other words, until what you're asking about happens, it's all speculation.


Hum... Has anyone told D* that:

FCC Yields To DirecTV, Dish On HD Carriage
Plan Allows Satellite Giants To Down Convert HD Signals For Years
By Ted Hearn -- Multichannel News, 3/19/2008 6:40:00 PM

"The National Association of Broadcasters, which did not return requests for comment, is probably going to be unhappy because the FCC plans to allow DirecTV and Dish to down convert broadcasters' HD signals to a less pristine picture resolution for several years."

Looks like they did a lot of lobbying to get FCC permission to allow them to down convert the HD locals. So "no one ever said ..." seams like it is some one has said down convert the HD locals and that some one is D*.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

btmoore said:


> Hum... Has anyone told D* that:
> 
> FCC Yields To DirecTV, Dish On HD Carriage
> Plan Allows Satellite Giants To Down Convert HD Signals For Years
> 
> "The National Association of Broadcasters, which did not return requests for comment, is probably going to be unhappy because the FCC plans to allow DirecTV and Dish to down convert broadcasters' HD signals to a less pristine picture resolution for several years."
> 
> Looks like they did a lot of lobbying to get FCC permission to allow them to down convert the HD locals. So "no one ever said ..." seams like it is some one has said down convert the HD locals and that some one is D*.


Two different things...

One is more compression on a signal... one is a flat out down-convert to SD.

And it is also two different things....

Lobbying to make sure a law/rule is put into place, that forces them to have to choose:

1) Provide all the HD's and work with in the physical limitations of the Bandwith situations.
2) Don't provide any locals at all.

Either they downconvert to SD... or they don't provide the locals at all.
Really only choice they have in some markets...

There is a big differen between lobbying to have a plan in place, and implementation.

None that still means they are going to crank up the compression on any of the existing locals, or future locals.

They simply now have the option to downconvert them to SD... provide them via the SAT stream... until they can build / install more bandwith so they can provide a full HD stream to that market.


----------



## hasan

Earl Bonovich said:


> They simply now have the option to downconvert them to SD... provide them via the SAT stream... until they can build / install more bandwith so they can provide a full HD stream to that market.


Hmmmm...if I understand the ruling correctly (as summarized in this thread), would not the downconverting of HD locals to SD for the satellite make OTA-HD even more desirable than it is now?


----------



## Jeremy W

hasan said:


> Hmmmm...if I understand the ruling correctly (as summarized in this thread), would not the downconverting of HD locals to SD for the satellite make OTA-HD even more desirable than it is now?


No, not at all. It's not like they're going to take away HD local channels that they have now, and make them SD. It'll be for new channels, so you're going from having nothing via DirecTV to having an SD downconversion via DirecTV. If anything, it makes OTA HD slightly less desirable.


----------



## btmoore

Jeremy W said:


> No, not at all. It's not like they're going to take away HD local channels that they have now, and make them SD. It'll be for new channels, so you're going from having nothing via DirecTV to having an SD downconversion via DirecTV. If anything, it makes OTA HD slightly less desirable.


Now that is some impressive spin. How the total downconversion from HD to SD, in full markets makes OTA HD less desirable is a TOTAL mystery to me. Lets see, sir, D* is proud to offer a subset of your HD locals which we have down converted for your connivance and viewing enjoyment, you will enjoy this lower resolution version of your local channels much more that those bloated high resolution version you can get OTA. Trust us we know what you like.


----------



## tfederov

sbl said:


> I'd guess that VE is censored because they don't advertise here. I know that was done over at TCF. As far as I know, VE is an honest and outstanding supporter of the DirecTV and DVR community.


I can vouch for them as well because Robert and crew saved my family from Pegasus the week DIRECTV told them to hit the road. I've refered friends to them and VE has treated them all well.


----------



## Jeremy W

btmoore said:


> How the total downconversion from HD to SD, in full markets makes OTA HD less desirable is a TOTAL mystery to me.


You go from not getting the channel at all, to getting an SD version of the channel. My exact words were:


Jeremy W said:


> If anything, it makes OTA HD slightly less desirable.


I didn't say that this would eliminate the need for OTA HD. I didn't even say that it would make OTA HD less desirable. I said "if anything" meaning, if there is any impact at all, it would only serve to make OTA HD slightly less desirable. In reality, I don't believe it would have any impact on the desirability of OTA HD. But it certainly wouldn't make it *more* desirable.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

hasan said:


> Hmmmm...if I understand the ruling correctly (as summarized in this thread), would not the downconverting of HD locals to SD for the satellite make OTA-HD even more desirable than it is now?


No more so then it is today...

We are talking about the smaller markets... those markets that don't have enough subscribers to cover the costs of bringing the singal in via SAT.

Some of the same markets that don't even have SD coverage today.

There will always be the need for OTA in those markets... but in the larger population DMA's... the full HD channels will be there (in addition to downrezed SD versions, for those that don't need/want HD)


----------



## smiddy

I was looking for the web site for Value Electronics and can not find it so I can get on their waiting list. Can someone provide it? I really want an AM21 now...


----------



## Smuuth

smiddy said:


> I was looking for the web site for Value Electronics and can not find it so I can get on their waiting list. Can someone provide it? I really want an AM21 now...


http://www.valueelectronics.com/


----------



## Maruuk

If D* ends up downcoverting the McNeil Lehrer Report or a bunch of talk/news shows I could care less. When they they start downcoverting Masterpiece or Nature or John Adams, then it's time to go to mattresses.


----------



## johnp37

Smuuth said:


> http://www.valueelectronics.com/


 How reliable is this Value Electronics merchant? Anybody deal with them before? What is your experience with them? I personally have done business with Solid Signal for quite some time. Very reliable, great service but so far is showing pre-orders at the $99 price, subject to change at official D* release of the AM21.


----------



## btmoore

Jeremy W said:


> You go from not getting the channel at all, to getting an SD version of the channel. My exact words were:
> 
> I didn't say that this would eliminate the need for OTA HD. I didn't even say that it would make OTA HD less desirable. I said "if anything" meaning, if there is any impact at all, it would only serve to make OTA HD slightly less desirable. In reality, I don't believe it would have any impact on the desirability of OTA HD. But it certainly wouldn't make it *more* desirable.


First I never said you said it would eliminate the need, I said that was an amazing spin and ... well you have totally lost me in your ... hum ... eh ... er... logic?.?

You say that going from no channels to a SD version is better when the OTA ones are in full HD and are free and in the air.

Then you say that you didn't say "that it would make OTA HD less desirable" to then say "it would only serve to make OTA HD slightly less desirable" and then you clarify all of that by it saying that "I don't believe it would have any impact on the desirability of OTA HD" which gets us back to that they can get the full HD OTA channels fully integrated into their guide for free which one would think is much better than downconverted crap. 

Here is how I see it:

If you want HD you are looking for quality picture not down converted crap.

If you can get HD OTA and you get downconverted SD crap on D* th HD OTA is a far far more desirable than the crap.

This is why I use OTA because D* the current over-compress locals are basically down converted, green puke spitting, lip syncing crap, ergo, OTA is currently far far more desirable than the current so called HD locals, let alone when you have markets that will have downconverted over compressed crap, I feel sorry for those poor *******s.


----------



## Jeremy W

btmoore said:


> You say that going from no channels to a SD version is better when the OTA ones are in full HD and are free and in the air.


OK, let me try and break this down one more time. Ignore OTA for a second, and just consider this: going from NOTHING to SD is an improvement. Assuming you do not have OTA, for whatever reason, and did not have this channel at all before, but now you have it in SD. How is that not better? How does it make OTA more desirable?


----------



## carl6

johnp37 said:


> How reliable is this Value Electronics merchant? Anybody deal with them before? What is your experience with them? I personally have done business with Solid Signal for quite some time. Very reliable, great service but so far is showing pre-orders at the $99 price, subject to change at official D* release of the AM21.


I have purchased from them several times. Good dealer, good reputation.

Carl


----------



## btmoore

Jeremy W said:


> OK, let me try and break this down one more time. Ignore OTA for a second, and just consider this: going from NOTHING to SD is an improvement. Assuming you do not have OTA, for whatever reason, and did not have this channel at all before, but now you have it in SD. How is that not better? *How does it make OTA more desirable*?


Because you can get the OTA stations IN TRUE HD so you dont have to have nothing or down converted crap you can have TRUE HD via OTA. :grin:


----------



## Jeremy W

btmoore said:


> Because you can get the OTA stations IN TRUE HD so you dont have to have nothing or down converted crap you can have TRUE HD via OTA. :grin:


I can't tell if you're joking, or you really don't understand the point I'm trying to make.


----------



## btmoore

Jeremy W said:


> I can't tell if you're joking, or you really don't understand the point I'm trying to make.


Both


----------



## smiddy

Smuuth said:


> http://www.valueelectronics.com/


Thanks, I tried that earlier and it gave me a weird website, though it is working now.


----------



## tkrandall

For the Atlanta market, I'd have to say the DirecTV provided HD locals via MPEG4are pretty good - very watchable at least. I also have OTA direct to the TV as well as through the HR20. On my 61 inch DLP set, OTA does looks better than the (presumably compressed) DirecTV feed. Skin tones, clothing texture, playing field (sports) detail are all a bit better defined on the OTA source. For the 1080i source material I don't know if DirecTV is perhaps using "HDlite" 1280x1080i or 1440x1080i, or if they simply trimming back on bitrate for both 1080i and 720p material. Whatever it is, it is a difference that you can pick up on if you look for it. 

For these reasons, I remain interested in OTA capability through my DVR. However, even though I am only 20 miles from downtown, I live in a local node that has signal attentuation due toterrain and the HR20 tuners are far worse at holding my signal for several of my statios than is my TV's tuner. Thus, I am interested in the AM-21/HR21 solution should the AM-21's tuner indeed be signficantly better than the HR20's. I just wish DirecTV would let me swap out my HR20.


----------



## johnp37

tkrandall said:


> For the Atlanta market, I'd have to say the DirecTV provided HD locals via MPEG4are pretty good - very watchable at least. I also have OTA direct to the TV as well as through the HR20. On my 61 inch DLP set, OTA does looks better than the (presumably compressed) DirecTV feed. Skin tones, clothing texture, playing field (sports) detail are all a bit better defined on the OTA source. For the 1080i source material I don't know if DirecTV is perhaps using "HDlite" 1280x1080i or 1440x1080i, or if they simply trimming back on bitrate for both 1080i and 720p material. Whatever it is, it is a difference that you can pick up on if you look for it.
> 
> For these reasons, I remain interested in OTA capability through my DVR. However, even though I am only 20 miles from downtown, I live in a local node that has signal attentuation due toterrain and the HR20 tuners are far worse at holding my signal for several of my statios than is my TV's tuner. Thus, I am interested in the AM-21/HR21 solution should the AM-21's tuner indeed be signficantly better than the HR20's. I just wish DirecTV would let me swap out my HR20.


 Every D* CSR I spoke to, as recently as yesterday told me the same thing, they cannot guarantee what box is sent out, it may be a HR20 or a HR21. I finally got a deal of a 6 month $10 off my monthly bill and you go out and buy a new HR21. Don't take no for an answer.


----------



## DallasDave

I currently have an HR10-250 with OTA diplexed on the sat feed. My understanding is that you cannot diplex the OTA feed for Ku/Ka dish and thus for the AM21. This represents a problem for me since I cannot run another wire to my HT setup (or it would be very difficult to). I believe the SWM-8 represents a solution to this problem, but it is really expensive (~ $300), and I don't think I could justify the cost since I have local HD channels available via the satellite.

When I have the installer out to install a new HR21 and AM21, I assume they will tell me they cannot run the OTA wire and I need the SWM-8. Do you think D* would supply the SWM-8 at little/no cost (if I told them that I *HAD* to have one of the local channels in HD that they do not provide)? I know it's not possible now due to supply issues for both the AM21 and SWM-8, but I plan on waiting a few months.


----------



## robn77

Where my HR21 is I have two lines coming to it. What I plan until SWM is more mainstream is just have one satelite line and one OTA line coming to the boxes. We view about 90% of our HD content OTA, so having the limitation of one non-OTA choice at a time is not that big of a deal.

I believe that Earl said at one point that this setup would work. With your record possibilities being:

One Sat
One Sat and One OTA
Two OTA


----------



## bpratt

DallasDave said:


> I currently have an HR10-250 with OTA diplexed on the sat feed. My understanding is that you cannot diplex the OTA feed for Ku/Ka dish and thus for the AM21. This represents a problem for me since I cannot run another wire to my HT setup (or it would be very difficult to). I believe the SWM-8 represents a solution to this problem, but it is really expensive (~ $300), and I don't think I could justify the cost since I have local HD channels available via the satellite.
> 
> When I have the installer out to install a new HR21 and AM21, I assume they will tell me they cannot run the OTA wire and I need the SWM-8. Do you think D* would supply the SWM-8 at little/no cost (if I told them that I *HAD* to have one of the local channels in HD that they do not provide)? I know it's not possible now due to supply issues for both the AM21 and SWM-8, but I plan on waiting a few months.


Quite a few HR2x users have had success with diplexing by removed the BBCs from the sat input and moving them just before the diplexer. The only problem may be that the BBCs are not designed to run outside and may not handle the extreme temperatures or moisture.


----------



## Jeremy W

robn77 said:


> I believe that Earl said at one point that this setup would work. With your record possibilities being:
> 
> One Sat
> One Sat and One OTA
> Two OTA


Yep, it'll work just like that.


----------



## DallasDave

Thanks, guys. If D* won't play ball and give me the SWM, at least I'll have some options.


----------



## sbl

The SWM-8 has an off-air input but I don't know what it does with it. The instruction sheet says only "for MDU" (My OTA antenna is powered so I can't use this anyway.)

I use the SWM to free up a cable run for my OTA.


----------



## jacmyoung

Called DirecTV today and was told the AM21 release is pushed back to "early May" is this true?


----------



## Spanky_Partain

jacmyoung said:


> Called DirecTV today and was told the AM21 release is pushed back to "early May" is this true?


This is a supplier, not Directv.

Quote from web page...

"DIRECTV OTA dual tuner 
Item # : AM21 
This is a pre-order order for DIRECTV's new AM21 OTA ATSC HD dual tuner. No charge is made till we actually ship so go ahead and place the pre-order now to assure your delivery in our first allocation.

Shipping the first week of May 2008.

Unit Price : $59.99 "

http://www.ValueElectronics.com


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jacmyoung said:


> Called DirecTV today and was told the AM21 release is pushed back to "early May" is this true?


Since there has been no official release date...
I don't know how it could be "pushed back"

All I know for certain is that want to get it out... as soon as possible.


----------



## jacmyoung

Earl Bonovich said:


> Since there has been no official release date...
> I don't know how it could be "pushed back"
> 
> All I know for certain is that want to get it out... as soon as possible.


I was told many times in the past two months by D* CSR's of different kind, end of March. Even though it was not official, it still sucks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jacmyoung said:


> I was told many times in the past two months by D* CSR's of different kind, end of March. Even though it was not official, it still sucks.


Well those CSRs then were telling you something that they should not have been, as there has never been a set "date"...


----------



## krock918316

sbl said:


> The SWM-8 has an off-air input but I don't know what it does with it. The instruction sheet says only "for MDU" (My OTA antenna is powered so I can't use this anyway.)
> 
> I use the SWM to free up a cable run for my OTA.


You can use a powered antenna, just insert the power before the SWM:

Antenna -----> OTA Power Inserter -------> SWM-8

I have my SWM-5 set up similar:

D*-----------> |S | 
D*-----------> |W|
D*-----------> |M | 
D*-----------> |- | 
D*-----------> |5 | -------------------> Diplexer -----------------> 
|
OTA---------> OTA POWER INSERTER------|


----------



## AreBee

I preordered today as well.

Very excited about the reports of improvement in reception.


----------



## Scarpad

johnp37 said:


> How reliable is this Value Electronics merchant? Anybody deal with them before? What is your experience with them? I personally have done business with Solid Signal for quite some time. Very reliable, great service but so far is showing pre-orders at the $99 price, subject to change at official D* release of the AM21.


I ordered my HR 21 from them last week and had it, with free shipping the next day, of course NY to Ma, but still fantastic. Plus Robert is a regular over at the AVSForum.

I Have my AM21 on order from them.


----------



## HoTat2

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well those CSRs then were telling you something that they should not have been, as there has never been a set "date"...


Well... when I ordered had my initial HD upgrade with the HR21 two months ago. I asked the first level CSR about the AM21 for it. She was clueless as to what that even was (no surprise of course). So she then transfered me to a level two tech support agent who looked up the issue on her computer which said the release of the AM21 was to be "March 21" (no pun intended).

Guess that estimate was totally optimistic and ill-advised :sure:


----------



## hasan

Earl Bonovich said:


> No more so then it is today...
> 
> We are talking about the smaller markets... those markets that don't have enough subscribers to cover the costs of bringing the singal in via SAT.
> 
> Some of the same markets that don't even have SD coverage today.
> 
> There will always be the need for OTA in those markets... but in the larger population DMA's... the full HD channels will be there (in addition to downrezed SD versions, for those that don't need/want HD)


Isn't it obvious that if a customer has access to the full bandwidth feed, non-transcoded, that they are better off receiving it than a down-res'd copy from a satellite? That's the only point I was making. I don't begrudge any of the HD-Local offerings via satellite...I just don't have any need for them, when I can get the "real" thing directly from the source. No biggie...

Another comment I find "curious"...first it was "those who need/want OTA"...now that is has been morphed into "*those who don't need/want HD"
* ...just how far are we willing to torture our logic in order to justify what D* is offering, or the status quo?

If a pristine source is offered, the vast majority of those who have access to it, will choose it, I would think. After all, that's why it's called HD...which in this case may not be fair, as we are discussion sub-channels. Nevertheless, offering a degraded copy may be fine as a last resort....but then positing an equivalency argument between a pristine locally available OTA signal and a down-res'd signal from a satellite is preposterous.

There's just something about the way these discussions tend to run that gives me the vague sense that some people will go to any length to rationalize and/or justify whatever behavior D* engages in, be it package redefinition, horrible phone support, missed promises....by over a year, no less (HD-LIL in central Iowa....I know, the irony isn't lost on me ), customer roulette, etc. Others will go to the same lengths to paint D* in the worst possible light, no matter how well thought out or sincere their efforts.

I'm not comfortable with either extreme: D* is dung or D* must be defended, no matter what. There are credibility issues when either extreme becomes the modus operandi of posters.

The next thing we're going to hear is that D* has severe bandwidth issues, so all the HD channels will be further bit-starved to "ease the crunch"...after all, most of you don't really want or need "real" HD...what we offer you is HD as *we define it* and plenty good, so be happy and stop whining. We are the "deciders" (and have legions of defenders), of what you "want" or "need", so get over it.

I have no quarrel with what D* is proposing. I do take exception to comparing down-res'd digital to what is available OTA. Sometimes the sats just aren't competitive....but in most cases they are, and that is why they are making money and growing subscribers.

Again, it's just a "sense", I could be mistaken.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...


----------



## Maruuk

The 1080i golf on my local NBC affiliate does look a little better than a 1080i DTV feed. Subtle details are just that much crisper. Probably the difference between 1400 and 1920. But most of us are still reeling from last year's NBC insanity of switching between blur-o-vision SD and HD cameras all the time last year, from shot to shot. They finally ponied up and bought a few more HD cams this year.

Now we just have to deal with stuff like Masterpiece's BBC shows which are shot in Super 16 and upconverted into the "small box" 16:9 (UGH) and Fox and ABC's use of what I like to call "ED" (720p). I see no increase in smoothness going from 30 to 60 fps, yet I DEFINITELY see a marked difference in definition. 720p is fine for close-up one and two-shot style shows like American Idol, but when sports is involved, definition is king. Death to 720p!

Good example is NHL coverage. While Fox globally is 720p, ironically their local RSNs are mostly 1080i. So when you watch say the San Jose Sharks from FSNBA, it's in glorious 1080i and man it is spectacular! And no motion blur or pixelization from the speed. And if HOCKEY can work at 1080i, anything can.

DTV's downconversion to around 1400 is liveable. But 720p is not. Try to find any detail on those Fox 720p NASCARs...you can't. There isn't any.

But given the choice after I get my AM21, I'm going local everytime.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

hasan said:


> Isn't it obvious that if a customer has access to the full bandwidth feed, non-transcoded, that they are better off receiving it than a down-res'd copy from a satellite? That's the only point I was making. I don't begrudge any of the HD-Local offerings via satellite...I just don't have any need for them, when I can get the "real" thing directly from the source. No biggie...
> 
> Another comment I find "curious"...first it was "those who need/want OTA"...now that is has been morphed into "*those who don't need/want HD"
> * ...just how far are we willing to torture our logic in order to justify what D* is offering, or the status quo?
> 
> If a pristine source is offered, the vast majority of those who have access to it, will choose it, I would think. After all, that's why it's called HD...which in this case may not be fair, as we are discussion sub-channels. Nevertheless, offering a degraded copy may be fine as a last resort....but then positing an equivalency argument between a pristine locally available OTA signal and a down-res'd signal from a satellite is preposterous.
> 
> There's just something about the way these discussions tend to run that gives me the vague sense that some people will go to any length to rationalize and/or justify whatever behavior D* engages in, be it package redefinition, horrible phone support, missed promises....by over a year, no less (HD-LIL in central Iowa....I know, the irony isn't lost on me ), customer roulette, etc. Others will go to the same lengths to paint D* in the worst possible light, no matter how well thought out or sincere their efforts.
> 
> I'm not comfortable with either extreme: D* is dung or D* must be defended, no matter what. There are credibility issues when either extreme becomes the modus operandi of posters.
> 
> The next thing we're going to hear is that D* has severe bandwidth issues, so all the HD channels will be further bit-starved to "ease the crunch"...after all, most of you don't really want or need "real" HD...what we offer you is HD as *we define it* and plenty good, so be happy and stop whining. We are the "deciders" (and have legions of defenders), of what you "want" or "need", so get over it.
> 
> I have no quarrel with what D* is proposing. I do take exception to comparing down-res'd digital to what is available OTA. Sometimes the sats just aren't competitive....but in most cases they are, and that is why they are making money and growing subscribers.
> 
> Again, it's just a "sense", I could be mistaken.
> 
> Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...


One... this has nothing to do with "defending" squat.
(And I am pretty dam disapointed that it was viewed that way)

FLAT OUT... there are people.... users who absolutely do not want the antennas and other pieces of OTA... regardless if it is HD or not.

So... what I wrote was....

Either DirecTV can offer them NOTHING... or a SD downrezing of the digital HD feed.
If the cost justification isn't there for the actual HD carraige, or there is something else limiting it from HD carraige.

I am not the one push the panic button here....
There are a lot of people that are predicting doom and gloom, because DirecTV and DishNetwork.... actually got something into the FCC plans....
That allows them to do things the right way... instead of stuffing it into something that it wasn't planned for.

DirecTV has announed that they will have capaticity for 1,500 HD Locals...
1,500... that is heck of a large number.... then they have announced D12... which certainly will have some more capacity.

So while most of the network in a specific DMA... are not going to be HD any time soon.... I think this is a worry spot, that doesn't need to be worried about.


----------



## WebDev511

Is it just me, or does it look like there is enough room in the AM21 chassis for a SATA drive?

Sure you'd have to mode the case for mounting points plus power and data cable, but at least the would all be in the same place. It would be even better if you could tap off the power coming in for the tuner, but I'd leave that to those of you with more experiance at that sort of thing than I.

So, who's going to get working on this for me?


----------



## bpratt

WebDev511 said:


> Is it just me, or does it look like there is enough room in the AM21 chassis for a SATA drive?
> 
> Sure you'd have to mode the case for mounting points plus power and data cable, but at least the would all be in the same place. It would be even better if you could tap off the power coming in for the tuner, but I'd leave that to those of you with more experiance at that sort of thing than I.
> 
> So, who's going to get working on this for me?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=120664&highlight=AM31


----------



## Drew2k

WebDev511 said:


> Is it just me, or does it look like there is enough room in the AM21 chassis for a SATA drive?


Yup - that was noted during field trials. Some clown even thought if there was spring-loaded cover, the AM21 would be a good place to hide jewelry ... but then the flaw in that plan was pointed out ... namely if a thief was looking to rob you, maybe they'd be interested in taking that shiny black equipment!


----------



## jacmyoung

Can you folks with AM21 tell us why the thing is delayed to early May?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jacmyoung said:


> Can you folks with AM21 tell us why the thing is delayed to early May?


There is no "delay".. 
while you may have been told a date from CSRs... 
there has never been a date... and there still isn't a set date.

So whom every is telling you "early May"... I am not sure where they are getting it from... but they are not getting it from the people responsible for the AM21


----------



## RobertE

jacmyoung said:


> Can you folks with AM21 tell us why the thing is delayed to early May?


As there has _Never_ been an "Official" street date, so, its not delayed.

That being said, I think a couple of things will affect that street date.
1) The supply of the AM-21 working through the supply chain.
2) D* feeling comfortable with the OTA portion of the HR21 software
3) Training of the installers on how to install and operate the AM21 This has not happened yet. Granted, it's extremely easy to set up, but training still needs to be done.


----------



## houskamp

RobertE said:


> As there has _Never_ been an "Official" street date, so, its not delayed.
> 
> That being said, I think a couple of things will affect that street date.
> 1) The supply of the AM-21 working through the supply chain.
> 2) D* feeling comfortable with the OTA portion of the HR21 software
> *3) Training of the installers on how to install and operate the AM21 This has not happened yet. Granted, it's extremely easy to set up, but training still needs to be done*.


Why would they even involve an installer? They don't do any OTA work.. I would just make it an orderable item shipped directly to the coustomer.. If the coustomer can setup his ant he should be able to setup an AM21...


----------



## Jeremy W

houskamp said:


> Why would they even involve an installer?


New HR21 being installed, customer wanted the AM21 as well. Better experience just to have the installer do everything instead of sending the customer a separate box and telling them to do it themselves.


----------



## RobertE

houskamp said:


> Why would they even involve an installer? They don't do any OTA work.. I would just make it an orderable item shipped directly to the coustomer.. If the coustomer can setup his ant he should be able to setup an AM21...


Who knows. I get sent out on service calls for all sorts of stupid stuff. TV on wrong input - Need to show customer how to push the button that is labled, surprisingly enough, TV input. Batteries really need to be installed correctly for the remote to work. The box actually has to be plugged into a working power outlet and sat line if you can believe that. I could go on...

I just hope we don't (re)start installing antennas.


----------



## hasan

Earl Bonovich said:


> One... this has nothing to do with "defending" squat.
> (And I am pretty dam disapointed that it was viewed that way)
> 
> FLAT OUT... there are people.... users who absolutely do not want the antennas and other pieces of OTA... regardless if it is HD or not.
> 
> So... what I wrote was....
> 
> Either DirecTV can offer them NOTHING... or a SD downrezing of the digital HD feed.
> If the cost justification isn't there for the actual HD carraige, or there is something else limiting it from HD carraige.
> 
> I am not the one push the panic button here....
> There are a lot of people that are predicting doom and gloom, because DirecTV and DishNetwork.... actually got something into the FCC plans....
> That allows them to do things the right way... instead of stuffing it into something that it wasn't planned for.
> 
> DirecTV has announed that they will have capaticity for 1,500 HD Locals...
> 1,500... that is heck of a large number.... then they have announced D12... which certainly will have some more capacity.
> 
> So while most of the network in a specific DMA... are not going to be HD any time soon.... I think this is a worry spot, that doesn't need to be worried about.


I agree, there is nothing to be particularly concerned about. My comments are solely about picture quality and what is available. Given a choice between a down-res'd SD local via sat and seeing it in its full bandwidth without transcoding OTA is the only thing I was attempting to address. Certainly there are those who want a sat box only. Certainly there are those who want the best quality available and will do what is necessary to achieve it, including additional antennas. The potential rub is characterizing what is outside both these choices, and what is "good enough". Only the end user can make that determination. Representatives from either camp stating the "want/need" and "good enough" parameters *for the other camp*, end up rehashing the old OTA discussion itself, which has been beaten to death.

Some people only want a sat box. It's not for me to characterize their decisions (especially either ineptly (not considering all the variables that impact their preference) or with apparent bias), with my opinions about *their* wants and needs. Some people want the best PQ available and will do what is necessary to get it. It's not for me to characterize their decisions (especially ineptly or with apparent bias) with my opinions about *their* wants and needs.

This is the context for my comments about defending/rationalizing/etc. When one has a long track record of stridently taking a particular side on an issue, any further comments *potentially* suffer from credibility problems. This is true for you (as your long and distinguished posting history speaks for itself), and it is true for me (being a long time PQ and OTA advocate), as well.

I respect the right of individuals to make their own choices, while at the same time marveling at how they get there.  It's the "how they got there" stuff that causes friction, and I prefer to avoid it, unless false choices or inaccuracies are used by one camp or another, thus mis-characterizing the other side.

In the end, people will vote with their wallets. If the product presented is inferior to their needs, they will make other choices. If the product presented meets their needs, they keep paying the bill.

Bringing this all back to something remotely resembling the AM21 discussion, it continues to work both transparently and terrifically on my HR21-200, is aesthetically pleasing, and very fairly priced (if what I've seen lately is accurate). I'll be adding one for the H21 as soon as it becomes available for that platform.


----------



## waynebtx

I know I sure will be happy when i can order one.


----------



## Maruuk

You may want to get your order in with VE now, there's a huge pent-up demand. Hate to see those "currently out of stock--expecting more in by June 17th" notices.


----------



## dyker

Maruuk said:


> You may want to get your order in with VE now, there's a huge pent-up demand. Hate to see those "currently out of stock--expecting more in by June 17th" notices.


Yeah, I just pre-ordered with VE. Can't get NBC HD through D* due to greedy local affiliate. Already have the antenna in place for SageTV home built system with tuners and get channel 8 perfectly through that. Documented $59.99 with free ship and no tax.


----------



## jacmyoung

houskamp said:


> Why would they even involve an installer? They don't do any OTA work.. I would just make it an orderable item shipped directly to the coustomer.. If the coustomer can setup his ant he should be able to setup an AM21...


I don't think installer training is the reason. People can pre-order from VE, no installer envolved.

I think DirecTV initially did plan to get it out sooner but for whatever the reason it got delayed. The bottomline is this whole thing was planned very badly. They should have allowed HR20 installs at least for those who requested HD20's, and only go HR21's exclusively after the AM21's are available.

What if AM21 ends up not going to work out after tests? How long do people have to wait then?


----------



## RobertE

jacmyoung said:


> I don't think installer training is the reason. People can pre-order from VE, no installer envolved.
> 
> I think DirecTV initially did plan to get it out sooner but for whatever the reason it got delayed. The bottomline is this whole thing was planned very badly. They should have allowed HR20 installs at least for those who requested HD20's, and only go HR21's exclusively after the AM21's are available.
> 
> What if AM21 ends up not going to work out after tests? How long do people have to wait then?


The installation force still needs to be trained for both installations and service calls. They still need to know all about the unit when you call for a service call. Or would you rather have them take one look at it and say "Sorry, we wern't trained on it, so, good luck. Bye."?


----------



## Maruuk

D* sent me four different HR20s to cover my lack of HD LILs. One was new, the others were refurbs. All four had major problems. I finally was forced to accept a working HR21. All that took weeks of time to resolve. And now like a lot of other folks I have major audio dropout problems. In the 10 years I had Tivo, not one problem, ever.

D* forced me to pay the full amount ($300) for the decontented (OTA tunerlesss) HR21. Now another $60 on top of that. On top of 6+ months of no recordable HD nets.

Yeah, the AM21 will be welcome. But it never should have been necessary at this stage in the first place. The HR21 should have been brought out only when D11 was kicking in a lot more HD LIL zones, and the AM21 should have been necessary only for those fringe areas the D11 can't service. As it is, I'll probably be getting HD LILs in the next year or so and then the AM21 will be a boat anchor.

This is sloppy engineering, sloppy hardware management, and insulting to the customer. The CSRs didn't even hear about the HR20 swapout plan for months even though the company policy was in place. I had to fight tooth and nail for every inch against arrogant, uninformed and dismissive CSRs. And all completely unnecessary.


----------



## johnp37

RobertE said:


> As there has _Never_ been an "Official" street date, so, its not delayed.
> 
> That being said, I think a couple of things will affect that street date.
> 1) The supply of the AM-21 working through the supply chain.
> 2) D* feeling comfortable with the OTA portion of the HR21 software
> 3) Training of the installers on how to install and operate the AM21 This has not happened yet. Granted, it's extremely easy to set up, but training still needs to be done.


 You are telling me I need a service call from these clueless so-called technicans to hook up the AM21? Are you kidding me? Forget it. With a few exceptions over the years I am confident I can do a better, more professional install and hookup than some of the bozos that have been to my home. If this is indeed the case, I will order from Value Electronics or Solid Signal.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

johnp37 said:


> You are telling me I need a service call from these clueless so-called technicans to hook up the AM21? Are you kidding me? Forget it. With a few exceptions over the years I am confident I can do a better, more professional install and hookup than some of the bozos that have been to my home. If this is indeed the case, I will order from Value Electronics or Solid Signal.


It's very easy to setup.

It took longer for the receiver to startup than it did for me to hook it up.

Mike


----------



## mhayes70

MicroBeta said:


> It's very easy to setup.
> 
> It took longer for the receiver to startup than it did for me to hook it up.
> 
> Mike


Yes, it is extremely easy to setup. You are correct on the time frame.


----------



## RobertE

johnp37 said:


> You are telling me I need a service call from these clueless so-called technicans to hook up the AM21? Are you kidding me? Forget it. With a few exceptions over the years I am confident I can do a better, more professional install and hookup than some of the bozos that have been to my home. If this is indeed the case, I will order from Value Electronics or Solid Signal.


No, what I'm saying is, that there is a 99% chance that D* won't push these out the door until the installers have been trained on how to install & work it. Granted that will take all of two minutes, but still.


----------



## Maruuk

Well, I assume the only potential problem is that D* (really Ironwood) installers used to install OTA antennas: clip-ons or whatever and the clipons at least used to hook into the LNBs. Since they no longer do on the 5 LNB dishes, DTV sort of got out of the antenna business, but now with the AM21s they're right back in it again. I bet a lot of installers won't have antennas or the right installation tools, and a lot of customers will have to call local antenna dudes.


----------



## jacmyoung

Three days ago when I called DirecTV asking about the AM21 status, and was told early May, I asked if they could send at least one HR20 to replace one of my HR21's. I could wait for the AM21's for my other HR21's. The lady talked to her sups and somehow she managed to do just that, by placing a special order request.

Today both the HR20 and a return box were dropped off by FedEx Saturday delivery. I was very impressed by the service, until I found out,

The HR20 was defective. It is a refurbished unit but that was not surprising to me, I have used refurbished items before but this one they did not refurbish it. I had to go through all the layers of tech diagnoses to convince them it was a defective unit. They again will try to do another special order request to send me another HR20.

But I began to think this might be a big mistake. How good a refurbished HR20 can be anyway. Who knows they might try to charge me 2x$199 for the two HR20's, they had screwed up the shipment and returns before. May be I should just wait for the AM21.

For anyone still have any hope for an HR20, no there is no new ones available anymore, only refurbished, and in my case not so refurbished it turned out.


----------



## HoTat2

jacmyoung said:


> Three days ago when I called DirecTV asking about the AM21 status, and was told early May, I asked if they could send at least one HR20 to replace one of my HR21's. I could wait for the AM21's for my other HR21's. The lady talked to her sups and somehow she managed to do just that, by placing a special order request.
> 
> Today both the HR20 and a return box were dropped off by FedEx Saturday delivery. I was very impressed by the service, until I found out,
> 
> The HR20 was defective. It is a refurbished unit but that was not surprising to me, I have used refurbished items before but this one they did not refurbish it. I had to go through all the layers of tech diagnoses to convince them it was a defective unit. They again will try to do another special order request to send me another HR20.
> 
> But I began to think this might be a big mistake. How good a refurbished HR20 can be anyway. Who knows they might try to charge me 2x$199 for the two HR20's, they had screwed up the shipment and returns before. May be I should just wait for the AM21.
> 
> For anyone still have any hope for an HR20, no there is no new ones available anymore, only refurbished, and in my case not so refurbished it turned out.


Yeah;

That would probably be best, just wait on the AM21's new release date. And you know since it is really a fait accompli now, all our moaning and groaning about the AM21's latest delay of over a month sometime into May isn't going to change a thing. Heck, I had just about conjured up the nerve to finally climb my rather pitched roof to take down my old and long falling apart rooftop antenna to install a brand new (and expensive, for my budget anyhow) Winegard HD7697P VHF Hi/UHF aerial that's still sitting in the box. In anticipation of the AM21's availability at the end of March (no VHF-lo channels to be used in the L.A. DMA after the transition).

Sign... Oh well&#8230; "the best laid plans I guess..."


----------



## Maruuk

I'm convinced that D* is just recycling and shuffling busted non-refurbished HR20s around the country to mollify PO'd HD LIL-less victims until the AM21 comes out. You probably got one of my busted ones. They're like these big electronics stores where you see a big slab of recent packing tape over the flaps and the unit fails out of the box, and you know it was a busted return they never touched. 

Then as soon as you don't get this doorstop back to them in time (because they don't send you the return sticker), they charge you full price for it. At one point they billed me for $1800 for their busted units they wouldn't let me return without an approved sticker, whch they wouldn't send me.

D* is faking it, bigtime. They're scrambling like mad to catch up with the HD LILs, and in the meantime, all us LIL-less victims are getting thrown under the bus of incompetent CSRs and a fundamentally corrupt system. And at the core of it was the key blunder of forcing a decontented HR21 into the marketplace long before its time.

I understand everyone who has HD LILs and perfectly-functioning HR21s are going, "Huh? Must be a bunch of psychos!" Nope. D* simply decided we were disposable and marginalized us to buy time. 

First it was too much trouble for them to educate their CSRs on the HR20 swapout plan, and then it was too much trouble for them to actually FIX the HR20s. They just took em in and shipped em out again. Fry's Electronics out here in Cali does that too. 

If you haven't been on the front lines of this D* FEMA-style debacle for months, you can't possibly get it. To all us vets who survived it, I salute you! May the AM21 bring peace to the valley at last.


----------



## jacmyoung

Will I qualify as a veteran if my second HR20 also go bust?


----------



## Maruuk

You'd get a purple access card. The few, the proud.


----------



## cantfish2much

Am I missing something? I have three HR20-700s and I get perfect reception from my OTA channels that are 80 miles away. Since all they seem to sell now is HR21s, if I was to start over now would I need to outlay more cash for this AM21 thing (I have 3 HR20s so I also assume I would need 3 AM21s) to get the same reception (D* and OTA) that I get on my three HR20s? Also if I ever have a problem with any of my HR20s, and they send me a HR21, will I also automatically get a AM21? 

Seems to me like they're just separating out the OTA to charge more $ for the "leased equipment"?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

cantfish2much said:


> Am I missing something? I have three HR20-700s and I get perfect reception from my OTA channels that are 80 miles away. Since all they seem to sell now is HR21s, if I was to start over now would I need to outlay more cash for this AM21 thing (I have 3 HR20s so I also assume I would need 3 AM21s) to get the same reception (D* and OTA) that I get on my three HR20s? Also if I ever have a problem with any of my HR20s, and they send me a HR21, will I also automatically get a AM21?
> 
> Seems to me like they're just separating out the OTA to charge more $ for the "leased equipment"?


Why would you want to start over? The HR21 w/ AM21 is the same unit as the HR20.

If one of your HR20's has a problem and needs to be replaced I am not sure what DIRECTV will do for customers that receive an HR21 instead. But we will not know until the AM21 is released.

The AM21 was not created to charge customers more money. It was created to cut cost on the the HD DVR (HR21). Not all customers need OTA and if I had to guess I would say it is not all that large of a percentage of customers that do need them. So they cut cost so customers can get the HR21 cheaper and the ones need OTA tuners can get the AM21.


----------



## Drew2k

And think about it this way: The money spent for the HR21+AM21 today is still less than the money spent on the HR20 a year ago ... and if you don't need the AM21, you save even more money.


----------



## cantfish2much

I was not going to start over, I was just bringing this situation up if I was now about to do a similar configuration. The money I spent over a year ago on each of my three HR20s is the same price as a HR-21 (at least if you compare apples to apples which is the current Best Buy price for a HR-21 which is today listed at $199). So you 'could' still be out more $ to get a HR-21 and a AM21 (again nobody knows what an AM21 will cost exactly yet).

Seems like D* is sort of charging more for those that need OTA and the same for those that don't need OTA versus prices a year or more ago (everybody at the time could get a HR20 for $199 .. or even less if you sweet-talked CSRs).


----------



## tkrandall

BMoreRavens said:


> Why would you want to start over? The HR21 w/ AM21 is the same unit as the HR20.


except one thing the hr20 is poor at handling attenuation/multipath. very poor compared to my dlp tv set. I live only 20 mile from the Atlanta stations and cannot get strong signal due to a ridge (kennesaw mountain) in my line of sight. my tv can hold signal on the 10 or so main stations, but the hr20 only can do two reliably, and a few others intermittantly. (I have a professionally installed 4228 antenna on my roof)

if the am21 has a better OTA tuner as it is reported to have, then the hr21/am21 combo will be an improvement over the hr20 for many.


----------



## houskamp

tkrandall said:


> except one thing the hr20 is poor at handling attenuation/multipath. very poor compared to my dlp tv set. I live only 20 mile from the Atlanta stations and cannot get strong signal due to a ridge (kennesaw mountain) in my line of sight. my tv can hold signal on the 10 or so main stations, but the hr20 only can do two reliably, and a few others intermittantly. (I have a professionally installed 4228 antenna on my roof)
> 
> if the am21 has a better OTA tuner as it is reported to have, then the hr21/am21 combo will be an improvement over the hr20 for many.


I would almost bet a slight turning of you antenna would make the HR do much better and problably make your tv worse.. I've found that an antenna has to be adjusted for different tuner designs.. they all seem to like slightly different aiming..


----------



## Maruuk

I guess I missed the AM21 reception quality posts--is it supposed to be quite a good receiver? How would anyone know since no customer has ever tried one?


----------



## bobnielsen

Maruuk said:


> I guess I missed the AM21 reception quality posts--is it supposed to be quite a good receiver? How would anyone know since no customer has ever tried one?


There are a number of CE'ers who participated in the field testing. I have only used mine on a small indoor antenna but it seems to be pretty good. I plan to hook it to the outdoor antenna that I use for my HR20-700 to make a comparison (my health has not allowed me to work in the crawl space yet). The HR21-700 software still has a bug where the signal strength maxes out at 77%, but there are a couple of marginal channels around here and I could do a qualitative analysis. I am receiving one of them fairly well already, but the indoor antenna may actually be in a better position to receive that channel (multipath). I'll move it to the other part of the house and do some A/B testing, hopefully within a few days, and report back.


----------



## hasan

Maruuk said:


> I guess I missed the AM21 reception quality posts--is it supposed to be quite a good receiver? How would anyone know since no customer has ever tried one?


I posted a direct comparison of the HR20-700 vs. HR21-200/AM21 in at least two threads with numbers to back it up. In my situation the AM21 is clearly superior to the HR20 OTA tuner. This is true in every case and on every channel where the signals are less than 100% in the first place. The evidence is quite convincing.

...and I'm one of those who has been testing the AM21 on an HR20-200 for at least a month, maybe longer. (Time flies when one is having fun)


----------



## tcusta00

hasan said:


> ...and I'm one of those who has been testing the AM21 on an *HR20-200*


Is that a typo??


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

tcusta00 said:


> Is that a typo??


Yes, he is talking about an HR21-200.


----------



## tcusta00

I thought maybe there was a new test going on!


----------



## hasan

tcusta00 said:


> I thought maybe there was a new test going on!


Sorry....fatfinger.


----------



## tcusta00

I ahve taht dsieaese aslo. 

:lol:


----------



## bobnielsen

bobnielsen said:


> There are a number of CE'ers who participated in the field testing. I have only used mine on a small indoor antenna but it seems to be pretty good. I plan to hook it to the outdoor antenna that I use for my HR20-700 to make a comparison (my health has not allowed me to work in the crawl space yet). The HR21-700 software still has a bug where the signal strength maxes out at 77%, but there are a couple of marginal channels around here and I could do a qualitative analysis. I am receiving one of them fairly well already, but the indoor antenna may actually be in a better position to receive that channel (multipath). I'll move it to the other part of the house and do some A/B testing, hopefully within a few days, and report back.


I hooked the HR21-700/AM21 to my outdoor antenna and there definitely is an improvment over the HR20-700. One marginal OTA channel went from 36-41% to 53-59% and another which had no reading is now 38-45% (but still no video).


----------



## johnp37

Has anybody heard anything?


----------



## tcusta00

Nope - you can bet that this place will be lit up like Rockefeller Center at Christmastime once it starts shipping! :lol:


----------



## Maruuk

Thanks for the field testing reports, guys--that's very good to hear for a guy like me in a somewhat marginal reception area.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Maruuk said:


> Thanks for the field testing reports, guys--that's very good to hear for a guy like me in a somewhat marginal reception area.


I think you will be pleasantly surprised...


----------



## sbl

I am definitely in a marginal area - 37 miles from the majority of the Boston transmitters. I find the AM21 to pull in more stations and with better signal level than the HR10. I have not tried the HR20 (since when that was installed I lost the use of the feed to my antenna, now I have it back again.) I am very pleased with the performance of the AM21.


----------



## Maruuk

BTW, when folks use the term "CE" in here, do they mean "Consumer Electronics" or "Cutting Edge" referring to some sub-group in here that betas new D* stuff?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Maruuk said:


> BTW, when folks use the term "CE" in here, do they mean "Consumer Electronics" or "Cutting Edge" referring to some sub-group in here that betas new D* stuff?


Cutting Edge


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Maruuk said:


> BTW, when folks use the term "CE" in here, do they mean "Consumer Electronics" or "Cutting Edge" referring to some sub-group in here that betas new D* stuff?


Cutting Edge

However, it isn't sub-group that betas new stuff.

It's the CE program for testing firmware for the receivers.

You could participate...check out the CE forum.

Mike


----------



## Maruuk

Ok, I get it, thanks! So the CE folks just test the new firmware, not hardware like the AM21.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Maruuk said:


> Ok, I get it, thanks! So the CE folks just test the new firmware, not hardware like the AM21.


DIRECTV also picks some of us to do field test on hardware like the AM21 too.


----------



## johnp37

Sorry to rain on our parade, specifically those of us waiting for the AM21, but Solid Signal has also confirmed that information they received currently points to an(tentative) early May release. I am not surprised. Maybe year's end would be more realistic. Bummer.


----------



## Maruuk

My fear is it won't make it in time for the NHL playoffs which get shifted from RSNs to the nets for the semis and finals. The nets are always a problem out here in the boonies with no HD LILs. I've already written off the Masters.

Thanks, D*. I get to watch the greatest sports events in history on 1930 technology. Was that blurry smudge a golf ball or a puck???


----------



## RAD

Maruuk said:


> Ok, I get it, thanks! So the CE folks just test the new firmware, not hardware like the AM21.


Sort of, you need to be participting in the CE process before you might get selected to do early release testing on hardware, like the AM21 (which I am testing).


----------



## johnp37

sbl said:


> I am definitely in a marginal area - 37 miles from the majority of the Boston transmitters. I find the AM21 to pull in more stations and with better signal level than the HR10. I have not tried the HR20 (since when that was installed I lost the use of the feed to my antenna, now I have it back again.) I am very pleased with the performance of the AM21.


 I'm a little confused here. Those on the forum who are doing testing seem to be happy with the performance of the AM21. Why then has release been pushed back a month? Possibly to clear all the POS HR20s out of the system?


----------



## RobertE

johnp37 said:


> I'm a little confused here. Those on the forum who are doing testing seem to be happy with the performance of the AM21. Why then has release been pushed back a month? Possibly to clear all the POS HR20s out of the system?


It hasn't been "pushed back" as there _never_ was a release date.


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

Their is still no official launch date, but I am told by reliable sources that the first production is scheduled to ship the first week of May.

-Robert


----------



## bobnielsen

The AM21 needs FCC approval before they can sell any. Also the enabling firmware needs to go into a national release (the special CE tonight may be a step in this direction).


----------



## AreBee

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> Their is still no official launch date, but I am told by reliable sources that the first production is scheduled to ship the first week of May.
> 
> -Robert


Robert,

Any idea how many you will be allocated? I preordered from you a little over a week ago, and I'm wondering if I have a shot at getting one in the first wave of shipments.


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

AreBee said:


> Robert,
> 
> Any idea how many you will be allocated? I preordered from you a little over a week ago, and I'm wondering if I have a shot at getting one in the first wave of shipments.


I should be allocated 200 from the first production. So we have a long way to go before we'll be dipping into the second allocation.

-Robert


----------



## tcusta00

Thanks! Good news for us who already ordered from you and those who still need to!! (Hope you sell 'em all though!)


----------



## AreBee

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I should be allocated 200 from the first production. So we have a long way to go before we'll be dipping into the second allocation.
> 
> -Robert


That's fantastic news!

Thanks Robert!


----------



## Rakul

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I should be allocated 200 from the first production. So we have a long way to go before we'll be dipping into the second allocation.
> 
> -Robert


Well that's good to hear!!! Can't wait to have mine hooked up and running.


----------



## jacmyoung

jacmyoung said:


> Three days ago when I called DirecTV asking about the AM21 status, and was told early May, I asked if they could send at least one HR20 to replace one of my HR21's. I could wait for the AM21's for my other HR21's. The lady talked to her sups and somehow she managed to do just that, by placing a special order request.
> 
> Today both the HR20 and a return box were dropped off by FedEx Saturday delivery. I was very impressed by the service, until I found out,
> 
> The HR20 was defective. It is a refurbished unit but that was not surprising to me, I have used refurbished items before but this one they did not refurbish it. I had to go through all the layers of tech diagnoses to convince them it was a defective unit. They again will try to do another special order request to send me another HR20.
> 
> But I began to think this might be a big mistake. How good a refurbished HR20 can be anyway. Who knows they might try to charge me 2x$199 for the two HR20's, they had screwed up the shipment and returns before. May be I should just wait for the AM21.
> 
> For anyone still have any hope for an HR20, no there is no new ones available anymore, only refurbished, and in my case not so refurbished it turned out.


Just received the second HR20 special request order, this time it is probably a much nicely kept lease return box, worked out good so far. Will give it a day or two to make sure all is well before sending back one of the HR21's.

The OTA capability is nice, and the HR20 remote response is also much faster that the HR21. But the HR20's front panel LED is blindingly bright.

The quest for perfection never ends.


----------



## poppo

jacmyoung said:


> But the HR20's front panel LED is blindingly bright.


In case you didn't know, you can turn it down or off by pressing the left and right arrow buttons on the front panel at the same time. Each press reduced the brightness until it's off. Many leave it off so they can tell if the machine has rebooted as it will default to being blindingly bright again.


----------



## jacmyoung

bobnielsen said:


> The AM21 needs FCC approval before they can sell any. ...


Now let's not use this rarely used excuse. It is used sometimes in the DISH forum to justify why the lack of HD channels. We are better than that


----------



## jacmyoung

poppo said:


> In case you didn't know, you can turn it down or off by pressing the left and right arrow buttons on the front panel at the same time. Each press reduced the brightness until it's off. Many leave it off so they can tell if the machine has rebooted as it will default to being blindingly bright again.


The thought of someone handing me a quick tip did cross my mind when I said that. Thank you very much.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Now let's not use this rarely used excuse. It is used sometimes in the DISH forum to justify why the lack of HD channels. We are better than that


It's true though. The AM21s that we tested had stickers on the bottom that said the unit has not passed FCC testing, and cannot be sold or used in a residential setting.


----------



## hasan

All I can say is *patience*. Those of us who were early with the HR20-700, and purchased it expecting OTA out of the box, as well as scanning for channels, waited several months before we got OTA turned on, and never got channel scanning (and are unlikely to ever see it).

Obviously OTA functionallity is a LOT more important than scanning, so I don't want to start a discussion of this dead horse.

I will note, however, that when the dropping of analog happens in Feb 2009, and a bunch of the channel assignments change (here) from UHF to VHF, we can expect some nasty inconveniences as the database that D* uses is updated (or not) to reflect the new channel assignments.

It would be a minor miracle if those of us who are going to see reassignment (I will see 3 channels change from UHF to VHF), do not experience at least one channel that won't work for a few weeks to a few months.

The best predictor of future performance is past performance and it took many people months and months to have their D* OTA receiver section get all the "expected" channels. D* said it wasn't their fault. Tribune (data supplier) was quiet. The local engineers told me in no uncertain terms that both Tribune and D* dropped the ball in a major way. It was only when the local engineer got on the phone with Tribune that the problem got solved...and he told me that he gave them the *exact* data on the phone that they had submitted to Tribune in writing.

So, be patient with getting an AM21...it is well worth it....and be prepared for some frustrations when Feb 2009 rolls around (unless you will have no reassignments). They (D*/Tribune/Locals) are *very unlikely* to get things right the first time. Expect delays, excuses, and finger-pointing by the "usual suspects".....just don't expect it to work the first day.

All that aside, the AM21 works beautifully with the HR21-200, evidencing *Very* good tuner performance, sleek look, and seamless integration with the HR21. I couldn't be more pleased.


----------



## bradpr

Does the AM21 with the HR21 100 allow OTA recording to the DVR?

I just bought an OTA antenna and called DTV to find out if I could get a receiver with OTA & was told that I would have to downgrade to the HR20 700 (or HR20 100?) and that those receivers WOULD NOT record OTA signal. 

Do these receivers record OTA?

Thanx


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bradpr said:


> Does the AM21 with the HR21 100 allow OTA recording to the DVR?
> 
> I just bought an OTA antenna and called DTV to find out if I could get a receiver with OTA & was told that I would have to downgrade to the HR20 700 (or HR20 100?) and that those receivers WOULD NOT record OTA signal.
> 
> Do these receivers record OTA?
> 
> Thanx


Yes.

See the review of the AM21.

The HR20 will record OTA.
The HR21 with the AM21 will record OTA


----------



## HoTat2

bradpr said:


> Does the AM21 with the HR21 100 allow OTA recording to the DVR?


Yes, up to two OTA channels may be recorded at one time. However the AM21 will not be released for at least another month.



> I just bought an OTA antenna and called DTV to find out if I could get a receiver with OTA & was told that I would have to downgrade to the HR20 700 (or HR20 100?) and that those receivers WOULD NOT record OTA signal.
> 
> Do these receivers record OTA? Thanx


No, that is incorrect. The HR20s are capable of recording from their two integrated OTA ATSC tuners to the DVR. But be careful choosing to downgrade, as the HR20s are no longer in production. And all DirecTV can send you is a refurbished unit that may have never been adaquately checked, and is defective. Many have had this happen to them after choosing this course.


----------



## Maruuk

Plus the first HR20-100 (new) they sent me had 320 Gs, but the last 3 HR20-700 refurbs had only 300. All the HR21s have 320. Had a 100% DOA rate on the HR20s, only a 50% DOA rate on the 2 HR21s. I call that a moral victory.


----------



## tfederov

bradpr said:


> I just bought an OTA antenna and called DTV to find out if I could get a receiver with OTA & was told that I would have to downgrade to the HR20 700 (or HR20 100?) and that those receivers WOULD NOT record OTA signal.





HoTat2 said:


> But be careful choosing to downgrade, as the HR20s are no longer in production.


Just my two cents, but I wouldn't call the HR20 a downgrade. Both the HR20s and HR21s (with AM21) do exactly the same thing. The only difference is that the HR21 didn't come with OTA standard.


----------



## Jeremy W

tfederov said:


> Just my two cents, but I wouldn't call the HR20 a downgrade.


I would. It's the same now, but it'll eventually lose favor with DirecTV, and the HR21 will be getting all of the good stuff first. I would much rather have the current production model than get one that has been discontinued.


----------



## Maruuk

+1 on that. In addition to the extra 20 gigs (at least over the HR20-700), who knows what long term support issues will favor the newer machine? Much as I hated to lose the OTA HD nets on the 20s, I feel better about having the current spec model.


----------



## houskamp

since they are so close in design, I would expect them both to be supported the same.. 

that is till the HR3x comes out


----------



## Jeremy W

houskamp said:


> since they are so close in design, I would expect them both to be supported the same..


DirecTV didn't even support the two HR20 models the same for a long time, I really can't expect them to continue supporting the HR20 and the HR21 the same until they're EOL'ed.


----------



## houskamp

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV didn't even support the two HR20 models the same for a long time, I really can't expect them to continue supporting the HR20 and the HR21 the same until they're EOL'ed.


Thats because they were playing catchup.. now they're all on the same release....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV didn't even support the two HR20 models the same for a long time, I really can't expect them to continue supporting the HR20 and the HR21 the same until they're EOL'ed.


Both the HR20 and the HR21 will be supported for the same length of time.


----------



## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> Both the HR20 and the HR21 will be supported for the same length of time.


Equally, like they are today?


----------



## jacmyoung

Maruuk said:


> Plus the first HR20-100 (new) they sent me had 320 Gs, but the last 3 HR20-700 refurbs had only 300. All the HR21s have 320. Had a 100% DOA rate on the HR20s, only a 50% DOA rate on the 2 HR21s. I call that a moral victory.


Well then so far I had 100% on my HR21's and 50% on my refurbished HR20's


----------



## gb4fan

Earl Bonovich said:


> Both the HR20 and the HR21 will be supported for the same length of time.


What I don't understand is why the H21 is not keep current with the same features as the HR21 least any DVR functions? I would imagine that the same holds true fro the H20. Its irritating to go from one room to the next and have different remote functions between rooms.


----------



## bobnielsen

The HR21 software is done by Directv inhouse. The H21 software is done by a different set of folks, NDS.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gb4fan said:


> What I don't understand is why the H21 is not keep current with the same features as the HR21 least any DVR functions? I would imagine that the same holds true fro the H20. Its irritating to go from one room to the next and have different remote functions between rooms.


What particular items are you referring too.

Other then the update menu structure... I am not sure what remote functions are different between the rooms.

I mean on an H21 - You have the GUIDE options (go straight to guide, or filter).

Same Search (minus the new boolean options, that are only in the CE's)

Channel Up... Channel down.
Blue Mini-Menu

What remote functions are different between the two?


----------



## gb4fan

Well for one on the HR21 you have the one button (yellow) access to CC. On the H21 its still a multiple series of commands to turn CC on or off.


----------



## byron

solidsignal now has the estimated arrival date as May 2008 (it previously said March 2008).... anyone know what's going on with the release of this product?


----------



## tcusta00

It was changed about a week or so ago - reported somewhere earlier in this thread.


----------



## shemp2000

btmoore said:


> I do, other may not. I see the difference on how the OTA is better and have even posted examples of the over compression issues. More recently, I forgot that I changed my filter to the CIR from my normal filter which blocks the D* locals. This made the D* locals visible to me again and I accidentally switched to the D* rebroadcast of CBS to watch some of the NCAA games, I was having all kinds of macroblocking and green blocking when I realized it was the D* rebroadcast I switched to the OTA and the picture was back to perfect. If you can get OTA go for it, you will get the picture as it originated from the studio before D* mucks with it then you can use the D* as a back up if you have an antenna problem.


So will I not have the problem of the Green "pixelation" with the AM21?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

shemp2000 said:


> So will I not have the problem of the Green "pixelation" with the AM21?


No guarantee.

Green "pixelation" typically occurs when you have an issue with receiving the signal, and the decoding system can't decypher that segment of the data stream.

The AM21 isn't magic, and will not eliminate all issue with reception.


----------



## btmoore

shemp2000 said:


> So will I not have the problem of the Green "pixelation" with the AM21?


If you OTA reception is good you will be getting the unadulterated feed from the OTA station. Who knows if the AM21 works well or not or if it will work in your situation. If your display has an ATSC tuner, try it out.


----------



## shemp2000

btmoore said:


> If you OTA reception is good you will be getting the unadulterated feed from the OTA station. Who knows if the AM21 works well or not or if it will work in your situation. If your display has an ATSC tuner, try it out.


My OTA straight to the TV works great, I only get the green pixels with locals with the HR21.

What I am not sure of is if the green pixels come from the digital feed from the dish or from the buffering to the hard drive.


----------



## houskamp

shemp2000 said:


> My OTA straight to the TV works great, I only get the green pixels with locals with the HR21.
> 
> What I am not sure of is if the green pixels come from the digital feed from the dish or from the buffering to the hard drive.


I have both OTA and SAT HD here.. what I have seen is when the OTA has small (sometimes unnoticed) spots in it it will show as a larger block in the SAT version..


----------



## btmoore

shemp2000 said:


> My OTA straight to the TV works great, I only get the green pixels with locals with the HR21.
> 
> What I am not sure of is if the green pixels come from the digital feed from the dish or from the buffering to the hard drive.


Base on what you are saying I would bet it is D* over compressing to the point of data loss or D* transcoding issues. Odds are if your OTA ATSC tuner works well and lets assume AM21 works the as good as your TVs tuner, you should be ok. I am using the HR20 which has integrated ATSC tuners and the quality and consistency is far better than what D* provides, I even filter out the D* locals from my guide so I don't accidentally record or switch the D* version. It is a shame that they ever removed the ATSC tuners to start with IMO all of you with the HR21's got shafted.


----------



## HoTat2

btmoore said:


> Base on what you are saying I would bet it is D* over compressing to the point of data loss or D* transcoding issues. Odds are if your OTA ATSC tuner works well and lets assume AM21 works the as good as your TVs tuner, you should be ok. I am using the HR20 which has integrated ATSC tuners and the quality and consistency is far better than what D* provides, I even filter out the D* locals from my guide so I don't accidentally record or switch the D* version. It is a shame that they ever removed the ATSC tuners to start with IMO all of you with the HR21's got shafted.


Well&#8230;, I don't necessarily consider myself "shafted," as I really have no problem with DirecTV's HR21/AM21 modular approach to the OTA solution. I just feel that the release of the AM21 should have been handled a lot better. In that its availability should have been much more concurrent with that of the HR21's initial distribution. Yet here we are just recently wrapping up field trials for the AM21, and are now hit with a least another month delay into sometime in May at the earliest.

Therefore, in the meantime until the AM21 is ready to go, I've had to improvise some kind of ATSC OTA DVR solution. So after I finally received my two $40.00 government rebate coupons for DTV converters. I hooked up an old ReplayTV unit of mine (an RTV-3060), and ran the output of a DTV converter I purchased from RadioShack with the aid of the rebate (a Zenith DTT900) into one of the auxiliary inputs on the Replay unit.

Works pretty well, though the PQ is in down converted SD of course. And I must set up nondescript manual recordings for it since there is obviously no option to download DTV listings into the ReplayTV's EPG. As the Replay's old OS is only keyed to its internal analog NTSC tuner for OTA.


----------



## ScottD

HoTat2 said:


> Well&#8230;, I don't necessarily consider myself "shafted," as I really have no problem with DirecTV's HR21/AM21 modular approach to the OTA solution. I just feel that the release of the AM21 should have been handled a lot better. In that its availability should have been much more concurrent with that of the HR21's initial distribution. Yet here we are just recently wrapping up field trials for the AM21, and are now hit with a least another month delay into sometime in May at the earliest.
> 
> Therefore, in the meantime until the AM21 is ready to go, I've had to improvise some kind of ATSC OTA DVR solution. So after I finally received my two $40.00 government rebate coupons for DTV converters. I hooked up an old ReplayTV unit of mine (an RTV-3060), and ran the output of a DTV converter I purchased from RadioShack with the aid of the rebate (a Zenith DTT900) into one of the auxiliary inputs on the Replay unit.
> 
> Works pretty well, though the PQ is in down converted SD of course. And I must set up nondescript manual recordings for it since there is obviously no option to download DTV listings into the ReplayTV's EPG. As the Replay's old OS is only keyed to its internal analog NTSC tuner for OTA.


I couldn't agree with you more. I was hit with the bait and switch (advertising showed an HR20 and I got a 21). The installer said "it's an Upgrade!!" Some upgrade, taking away features that were previously available. If there were an option for the AM21, or even plans for this back in December It would have been nice to know.. Instead, I was left with purchasing an ATSC tuner and connecting it up to a DVDR.

This looks really good and even though It SHOULD have been included in the HR21, at least they have realized the error of their ways and appear to be trying to provide options for those that were disgruntled by the missing OTA plug on their latest product.


----------



## gb4fan

We got to be getting close to the release.  Within a week?


----------



## Jeremy W

gb4fan said:


> We got to be getting close to the release.  Within a week?


It's really hard to say. The software end has been working extremely well for a while now. The delays (I know DirecTV never announced anything officially, but it did seem like the AM21 was going to be released sooner) must be associated with getting the unit produced in sufficient numbers. I couldn't speculate as to why that would be though, because it's a very simple unit to produce. So in the end, we don't really know anything, aside from the fact that there is an AM21 sitting on top of my HR21 right now.


----------



## btmoore

Jeremy W said:


> So in the end, we don't really know anything, aside from the fact that there is an AM21 sitting on top of my HR21 right now.


Well what we do know now is that you are a total fan boy that is getting pre release product to pump D*'s brand. As I thought, clearly not to be trusted on any thing that has anything to do with D*. What seams to becomes clear hear is if you blow Sunshine up D*s ass you you get access to D* pre release and perhaps some inside line or perhaps you are a D* plant to start with, not being a sunshine blower it is hard to tell.


----------



## kokishin

Not defending Jeremy, but after reading his posts for some time now, I believe he might be somewhat young in age. His avatar makes me chuckle because I imagine that he really does have some resemblance to it. Jeremy was not happy he was not offered to be a beta tester for the SWM so I think he relishes his role as a AM21 beta tester. Jeremy is a pretty sharp guy but he needs a little seasoning with respect to how he comes across. Of course, some folks probably think I am a SOB when it comes to my feelings about Directv's customer service. I doubt anyone will ever accuse me of being a fanboy. :lol:



btmoore said:


> Well what we do know now is that you are a total fan boy that is getting pre release product to pump D*'s brand. As I thought, clearly not to be trusted on any thing that has anything to do with D*. What seams to becomes clear hear is if you blow Sunshine up D*s ass you you get access to D* pre release and perhaps some inside line or perhaps you are a D* plant to start with, not being a sunshine blower it is hard to tell.


----------



## Jeremy W

kokishin said:


> I believe he might be somewhat young in age. His avatar makes me chuckle because I imagine that he really does have some resemblance to it.


Out of the really active members on this site, I am probably the youngest. And my whole goal with the avatar was to make it resemble me as closely as possible.  


kokishin said:


> I think he relishes his role as a AM21 beta tester.


I do, as does every other person on this site who has done hardware testing for DirecTV. It's a very rewarding experience, knowing that your feedback will potentially shape the experience of millions of DirecTV customers. It's just like being a part of the regular CE program, but with hardware.

There will always be people like btmoore who do nothing but bash DirecTV and people like me who don't constantly bash DirecTV, but that's life. I really don't care what he thinks about me or my reasons for posting the things I do.

:backtotop


----------



## kokishin

FWIW, I think BOTH of you add value in your own ways.



Jeremy W said:


> Out of the really active members on this site, I am probably the youngest. And my whole goal with the avatar was to make it resemble me as closely as possible.
> 
> I do, as does every other person on this site who has done hardware testing for DirecTV. It's a very rewarding experience, knowing that your feedback will potentially shape the experience of millions of DirecTV customers. It's just like being a part of the regular CE program, but with hardware.
> 
> There will always be people like btmoore who do nothing but bash DirecTV and people like me who don't constantly bash DirecTV, but that's life. I really don't care what he thinks about me or my reasons for posting the things I do.
> 
> :backtotop


----------



## James Long

Gentlemen ... this thread is for the discussion of the AM21 ... not each other.
Please comply with our forum rules and remain on topic.

:backtotop


----------



## waynebtx

AM21 now availabe. on directv.com or call in order 50.00 pluse tax .


----------



## gb4fan

I ordered mine from Direct TV today @ noon, checked the website when I got home from work and it says it already shipped! Sweet!


----------



## Gary II

waynebtx said:


> AM21 now availabe. on directv.com or call in order 50.00 pluse tax .


Where is this unit listed on the directv website? I have looked everywhere on the site.  Do I need to call to order? 

Thanks!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Gary II said:


> Where is this unit listed on the directv website? I have looked everywhere on the site.  Do I need to call to order?
> 
> Thanks!


once you log into your account... there is a box in the top right corner called 'Shop Directv'... and click on "kits and installation" within that box...


----------



## Balestrom

Have a quick question regarding the use of my HR21 and the AM21.

My Sony TV does not have an HD tuner, but is HD ready. So as long as I have a tuner (DirecTV HD) to bring in my signal I can receive 1080I.

Because of this, I am not able to receive HD locals through an antenna directly to my TV. Will the AM21/HR21 act as that tuner for me with my locals? Can I plug in antenna to that combo and receive and have it feed my HD signal to the TV.

I hope that made sense.

Thanks!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Based on what you describe, it should do exactly what you're asking.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Balestrom said:


> Have a quick question regarding the use of my HR21 and the AM21.
> 
> My Sony TV does not have an HD tuner, but is HD ready. So as long as I have a tuner (DirecTV HD) to bring in my signal I can receive 1080I.
> 
> Because of this, I am not able to receive HD locals through an antenna directly to my TV. Will the AM21/HR21 act as that tuner for me with my locals? Can I plug in antenna to that combo and receive and have it feed my HD signal to the TV.
> 
> I hope that made sense.
> 
> Thanks!


yes... that is correct...


----------



## Gary II

AirRocker said:


> once you log into your account... there is a box in the top right corner called 'Shop Directv'... and click on "kits and installation" within that box...


I am either an IDIOT, :grin: or the site I am looking at is different from yours. There is not Shop Directv link in the upper corner after I log in? Is this right? 

Thanks again!


----------



## lmuehl

Gary II said:


> I am either an IDIOT, :grin: or the site I am looking at is different from yours. There is not Shop Directv link in the upper corner after I log in? Is this right?
> 
> Thanks again!


I clicked on MY Programming and Equipment and scrolled down to Add Kits and Equipment Then clicked on Add Kits and Equipment . Hope that helps.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Gary II said:


> I am either an IDIOT, :grin: or the site I am looking at is different from yours. There is not Shop Directv link in the upper corner after I log in? Is this right?
> 
> Thanks again!


I'm certain you're not an idiot. This is how I found it... see screen capture:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Gary II said:


> I am either an IDIOT, :grin: or the site I am looking at is different from yours. There is not Shop Directv link in the upper corner after I log in? Is this right?
> 
> Thanks again!


my apologies Gary... after logged in, you will need to click on the "My Programming and Equipment" tab on the top menu bar... then you will have the "Shop DirecTV" box in the upper right... or, you can do as Mr. Sweet has outlined... 

and by the way... :welcome_s to DBSTalk!!!


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> see screen capture:


You didn't do a very good job obscuring your info. I can see that you're subscribed to Email Alerts, and that you use a Mac. :lol:


----------



## Gary II

AirRocker said:


> my apologies Gary... after logged in, you will need to click on the "My Programming and Equipment" tab on the top menu bar... then you will have the "Shop DirecTV" box in the upper right... or, you can do as Mr. Sweet has outlined...
> 
> and by the way... :welcome_s to DBSTalk!!!


Try as I may, I cannot find where to order on the website!  I will just call to place the order the old fashion way! Hope they know what I am talking about! 

And thanks for the welcome AirRocker!


----------



## evan_s

Gary II said:


> Try as I may, I cannot find where to order on the website!  I will just call to place the order the old fashion way! Hope they know what I am talking about!
> 
> And thanks for the welcome AirRocker!


Do you have an HR-21 showing on your account in your equipment? It won't work with a hr-20 or even a h-21 currently.

If you do end up calling in they seem to be aware of it but it is a new item so it might take a little while.


----------



## Gary II

evan_s said:


> Do you have an HR-21 showing on your account in your equipment? It won't work with a hr-20 or even a h-21 currently.
> 
> If you do end up calling in they seem to be aware of it but it is a new item so it might take a little while.


I have confirmed! I am a MORON! :nono2: I have an HR-21, but just got it and have not activated it. That is, of course, why it did not show up on the site!  Thanks to all of you for your help, but USER ERROR this time! :grin:

Of couse, I thought I could call, get one ordered, then hook it all up at once.....SILLY ME!! :lol: Why would they make it easy? Of couse I have to activate it first, THEN order the unit! I suppose I can SORT OF understand why DTV does it this way, but why would I even order this unit if I did not have an HR-21? It is useless otherwise!  

Just my minor gripe for the day. Otherwise, I love my DTV!!

Thanks again for all of the help!


----------



## evan_s

Gary II said:


> I suppose I can SORT OF understand why DTV does it this way, but why would I even order this unit if I did not have an HR-21? It is useless otherwise!


We've already seen one post in one of these AM21 threads by someone who had a hr-20 and didn't realize he already had this ability so might have mistakenly ordered one if it had been possible. Also at this point the H-21 isn't supported but could still benefit from it. Someone who hadn't been following things might not realize the difference and try ordering one for a receiver it wouldn't work with.


----------



## ka7gzr

I have a HR21Pro and it shows on my equipment list when I log onto Directv. However, the AM21 does not appear under my "Add Kits and Equipment" as an option. I called them and ordered one over the phone. They were in stock.
Jim


----------



## DallasDave

nm


----------



## johnp37

Robert from VE has just e-mailed me that they are starting to ship AM21s today.


----------



## scubadivergirl

I ordered my am21 over the weekend and to my surprise it showed up at work today. I ordered from the D* website and hadn't received any sort of shipping notification so I wasn't expecting it that fast.

Hopefully, adding it in tonight will be a simple process.


----------



## Doug Brott

scubadivergirl said:


> I ordered my am21 over the weekend and to my surprise it showed up at work today. I ordered from the D* website and hadn't received any sort of shipping notification so I wasn't expecting it that fast.
> 
> Hopefully, adding it in tonight will be a simple process.


Should be as easy as unplug the HR21, plug AM21 power & USB into HR21, antenna cable into AM21 and then plug in AM21 .. Then, go into the menus and set it up. Enjoy


----------



## greynolds

I've got an HR21 Pro and just added an HR21-100 to my system as a free "upgrade" for an older HR10-250 (upgrade in quotes because they deactivated but let me keep the HR10-250). I currently have the HR-21 Pro's serial port connected to my Crestron controller and would like to do the same with the HR21-100 (obviously with a USB to RS-232 adapter). I also want to add an AM21 to each so I can get the local OTA channels that DTV doesn't yet have on the satellite (WSBK 38, and WLVI 56 (CW)). Hence the problem - there's only 1 USB port on the back of the HR21-100.

Is it possible to connect an AM21 and a USB to RS-232 adapter to the same HR21 without using the front USB port - are USB hubs supported?


----------



## scubadivergirl

Doug Brott said:


> Should be as easy as unplug the HR21, plug AM21 power & USB into HR21, antenna cable into AM21 and then plug in AM21 .. Then, go into the menus and set it up. Enjoy


Indeed it was. I had to run the setup twice. For some reason the first time didn't actually configure the unit. But, running setup again did the trick.


----------



## itzme

scubadivergirl said:


> Indeed it was. I had to run the setup twice. For some reason the first time didn't actually configure the unit. But, running setup again did the trick.


As I posted in a new thread below, I also had to run the setup a couple times, and plug/re-replug. And even though it seems to work now, the little blue light has yet to come on. So that has me wondering if I may have a problem unit, and I'm trying to decide whether to call DTV and ask them to swap it.


----------



## tcusta00

itzme said:


> As I posted in a new thread below, I also had to run the setup a couple times, and plug/re-replug. And even though it seems to work now, the little blue light has yet to come on. So that has me wondering if I may have a problem unit, and I'm trying to decide whether to call DTV and ask them to swap it.


I wouldn't let it worry you too much if it's working. OTOH, if you don't have the protection plan it could come back and bite you later.


----------



## itzme

tcusta00 said:


> I wouldn't let it worry you too much if it's working. OTOH, if you don't have the protection plan it could come back and bite you later.


I don't have the protection plan. I just feel kinda funny saying, I'd like another because I don't seem to get the pretty blue light.


----------



## tcusta00

Yeah, I see your dilemma. What's the little manual say about warranty on it? I'm not at home so I can't look at it presently.


----------



## Rakul

tcusta00 said:


> Yeah, I see your dilemma. What's the little manual say about warranty on it? I'm not at home so I can't look at it presently.


I just looked at mine and couldn't find any mention or Warranty in the book.


----------



## itzme

Rakul said:


> I just looked at mine and couldn't find any mention or Warranty in the book.


Right, no mention of warranty.


----------



## tcusta00

Well then that just means it's warrantied forever. Or not at all. :whatdidid 

I don't know itzme, you can make a case either way, so it's up to you. Personally, I'd let it be if it's working aside from the LED. But I wouldn't blame you for calling for an exchange either.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Why does the documentation talk about analog reception, but the unit does not actually receive any analog stations?

Also, our Fox affiliate broadcasts as a sub channel of the CBS affiliate, but it is not listed even though it is much closer than the fox affiliate that is listed.


----------



## tcusta00

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> Why does the documentation talk about analog reception, but the unit does not actually receive any analog stations?


You mean in the User's Guide that came with it? I don't see analog in it, but then I'm really tired and could have missed it.


----------



## greynolds

greynolds said:


> Is it possible to connect an AM21 and a USB to RS-232 adapter to the same HR21 without using the front USB port - are USB hubs supported?


I posted a long winded version a few days ago, but got zero replies - does anyone have any thoughts on this? I don't have any USB hubs around, so before I go out and buy one it would be nice to know if anyone else has tried this and what the results were...


----------



## lady400

Is anyone receiving WFAA (channel 8-1) in the Dallas area on the AM21? I have always had problems receiving it consistently, but the AM21 shows ZERO signal from the station. On other tuners I have at least received signal, although not always reliably.

This particular station is in the VHF range, and always seem to be a problem. All of the others (UHF) are coming in great, quite a bit stronger than I have experienced with other tuners. Odd.


----------



## Smuuth

lady400 said:


> Is anyone receiving WFAA (channel 8-1) in the Dallas area on the AM21? I have always had problems receiving it consistently, but the AM21 shows ZERO signal from the station. On other tuners I have at least received signal, although not always reliably.
> 
> This particular station is in the VHF range, and always seem to be a problem. All of the others (UHF) are coming in great, quite a bit stronger than I have experienced with other tuners. Odd.


Are you sure WFAA is broadcasting digitally (ATSC)? If it is still analog (NTSC), the AM21 cannot receive it.


----------



## Jeremy W

greynolds said:


> I posted a long winded version a few days ago, but got zero replies - does anyone have any thoughts on this? I don't have any USB hubs around, so before I go out and buy one it would be nice to know if anyone else has tried this and what the results were...


I have a bunch of spare USB hubs, but I don't have a USB>RS-232 adapter to connect with the AM21.


----------



## hasan

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> Why does the documentation talk about analog reception, but the unit does not actually receive any analog stations?
> 
> Also, our Fox affiliate broadcasts as a sub channel of the CBS affiliate, but it is not listed even though it is much closer than the fox affiliate that is listed.


The database that D* gets from Tribune determines what channels the AM21 (and the HR20 series) OTA tuners can tune to. If the database doesn't include a sub-channel (yet), then the AM21 won't list it, and you can't get it.

Sooner or later, the database gets updated and you will see it appear. Many times, you have to contact your local affiliate (tv station) engineer in charge, and *ask him nicely* to recontact Tribune with the proper data for the missing channel.

I had to do this locally and it took about a week or two for it to show up, but it finally did...and this is after waiting nearly a year for D* and Tribune to do it on their own. They (D* and Tribune), appear to be unable to do it correctly in every case, and the only recourse you have is your local affiliate's engineer in charge.

D* will be no help at all, and you have no leverage with Tribune, so get on the phone, do an email, whatever it takes (I emailed an talked to mine on the phone). He was terrific and very informative.

Be nice to him...it's most likely not his fault, and he is your only hope of getting missing channels to show up.


----------



## lady400

Smuuth said:


> Are you sure WFAA is broadcasting digitally (ATSC)? If it is still analog (NTSC), the AM21 cannot receive it.


Absolutely sure. I haven't had a receiver capable of bringing in analog stations for years now. I just connected an AM21 to a 2nd HR-21, and it's coming in fine there. The units are on seperate antennas (long story), so I am sure it's just an antenna issue. The zero reading still surprises me though.


----------



## tsanga

hasan said:


> The database that D* gets from Tribune determines what channels the AM21 (and the HR20 series) OTA tuners can tune to. If the database doesn't include a sub-channel (yet), then the AM21 won't list it, and you can't get it.
> 
> Sooner or later, the database gets updated and you will see it appear. Many times, you have to contact your local affiliate (tv station) engineer in charge, and *ask him nicely* to recontact Tribune with the proper data for the missing channel.


Weird, I have a sub-channel on a local affiliate that _sometimes_ shows up in antenna setup (sometimes it's there after reboots, sometimes not, I have no idea why). But the channel is _always_ there in my program guide.


----------



## PeteB

I'm going to apologize in advance for having read less than half of this thread before replying due to urgency.

We're moving into a house less than 14 miles East of St. Louis, and DirecTV is coming out to install the dish and HR21 on the 6th.

I have additionally ordered an upgraded HR20 and SWM-8 from WeaKnees (shipping this afternoon), and I see that the AM21 is now available at Solid Signal for about $60.

Assuming I later do install an OTA antenna as a backup to work with the HR20, and then find that OTA reception could be better, will I be able to use an AM21 with the HR20, or does it only work with the 21's?

Obviously, as a total nugget in the world of satellite TV, I'm trying to figure this out as I go.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

PeteB said:


> I'm going to apologize in advance for having read less than half of this thread before replying due to urgency.
> 
> We're moving into a house less than 14 miles East of St. Louis, and DirecTV is coming out to install the dish and HR21 on the 6th.
> 
> I have additionally ordered an upgraded HR20 and SWM-8 from WeaKnees (shipping this afternoon), and I see that the AM21 is now available at Solid Signal for about $60.
> 
> Assuming I later do install an OTA antenna as a backup to work with the HR20, and then find that OTA reception could be better, will I be able to use an AM21 with the HR20, or does it only work with the 21's?
> 
> Obviously, as a total nugget in the world of satellite TV, I'm trying to figure this out as I go.


Welcome to DBSTalk

The AM21 will only work with the HR21's.


----------



## houskamp

PeteB said:


> I'm going to apologize in advance for having read less than half of this thread before replying due to urgency.
> 
> We're moving into a house less than 14 miles East of St. Louis, and DirecTV is coming out to install the dish and HR21 on the 6th.
> 
> I have additionally ordered an upgraded HR20 and SWM-8 from WeaKnees (shipping this afternoon), and I see that the AM21 is now available at Solid Signal for about $60.
> 
> Assuming I later do install an OTA antenna as a backup to work with the HR20, and then find that OTA reception could be better, will I be able to use an AM21 with the HR20, or does it only work with the 21's?
> 
> Obviously, as a total nugget in the world of satellite TV, I'm trying to figure this out as I go.


AM21 is for HR21 series only..


----------



## say-what

PeteB said:


> Assuming I later do install an OTA antenna as a backup to work with the HR20, and then find that OTA reception could be better, will I be able to use an AM21 with the HR20, or does it only work with the 21's?
> 
> Obviously, as a total nugget in the world of satellite TV, I'm trying to figure this out as I go.


It won't work with the HR20 as the HR20 does not have the code to recognize the device, much less disable the built-in tuners.


----------



## NCwolfpack00

is the AM 21 still a good product to use to integrate off air locals into the guide and be able to DVR those shows?
Is there an updated version being developed now?? Its been 7 years since its release.
Does the guide delineate the difference between antenna locals channels and Satellite locals?? 
Can I watch antenna locals during hurricanes and huge storms when my satellite signal is blocked?
Does it work with the genieHDDVR and client

Any other pros or cons do the AM 21??????


----------



## Scott Kocourek

Yes the AM21 and AM21N (no real difference) are the only ways to do what you are looking to do. They work well.
I believe the answer is yes to all of your questions.


----------



## slice1900

The main cons to the AM21 are that it doesn't get all the local channels available in your area. If you go to the Tips & Resources section and grab the file from the first post of the "Transponder Maps" thread and look at the OTA tab for your local market, you can see what stations you'll be able to pick up. Stations that have been added in the last few years are generally not included due to limitations in the way Directv handles OTA.

If you just want to make sure you can still get the locals that Directv provides you via satellite using your antenna during bad weather, the AM21 will work great for you assuming you have good reception (you can verify by plugging your antenna into your TV, scanning for channels, and seeing if everything you want is present) If you also want to pick up a bunch of your local subchannels that Directv does not deliver to you via satellite, it will depend on whether the channels you want are available with the AM21.


----------



## veryoldschool

I think we have a winner here for pulling up the oldest thread.

After 7 years this thread deserves a fork.

Any questions about the AM21, PLEASE start a new thread. :lol:


----------

