# I don't understand--why the bugs?



## tckerrigan (Nov 19, 2002)

First, some background: I've wanted a PVR for a while and I was at Costco last weekend and found out about Dish and the 508. I almost signed up for service right there, but decided to read some reviews first. Man, there are an incredible number of people who are very unhappy with this product. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are very satisfied with it, too, but I don't want to get stuck in the situation where I hate it but I have to use it for a year and then go through h*** trying to cancel the service and return the equipment. For this reason, I've decided that Dish and the 508 are not for me.

What confuses me is why this device is so buggy. I'm a professional computer programmer with a degree in electrical engineering and it seems like it should be pretty straightforward to make the software bug-free.

It seems like the majority of bugs are caused by timer information and file system corruption. I imagine the software runs a number of threads and race conditions are causing this corruption. This is something you learn how to fix in 2nd year computer science classes.

Even with bugs, the system can still be made reliable with standard fault tolerance programming practices. Copies and backups of critical information can be used to detect and fix corruption. Watchdogs can be used to make sure the system hasn't hung and is doing what it's supposed to, and reboot the system automatically otherwise. It should never be necessary for the user to reboot the system himself. You learn to do all of this stuff in any embedded systems class.

It depresses me to think that someone has made an embedded system (PVR) that will happily record the wrong thing for hours and require a reboot afterwards.

-Tom


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## spanishannouncetable (Apr 23, 2002)

Welcome to Echostar, where you're not just a paying customer - you're a paying beta tester ! :rotfl:

Seriously, if you want an integrated satellite/recorder, get Directv and a DirecTiVo or UltimateTV (if you can find one). They are both fine examples of technology priced right that works.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

I personally can not understand why every Dish Network receiver is never shipped with all its features enabled. 

When I buy a receiver it should have all the features mentioned out of the box. I hate this wait 6 months to a year to get features which should come with the box.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

The main reason I believe E* has such problems is that they try to do all the development in house. They do not want to pay money to TiVo or others to license the software. They supposedly pass this on to users by not charging a monthly fee for using the box.

Tivo has been doing this a lot longer than E*, in a couple years E* will probably have most the bugs worked out.


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## spanishannouncetable (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mike123abc _
> *The main reason I believe E* has such problems is that they try to do all the development in house. They do not want to pay money to TiVo or others to license the software. They supposedly pass this on to users by not charging a monthly fee for using the box.
> 
> Tivo has been doing this a lot longer than E*, in a couple years E* will probably have most the bugs worked out. *


"supposedly" is right 

Buy a 721. Cost = $500
Buy a DirecTiVo = $200
Cost of equipment difference = $300

$300/$4.99 monthly DirecTiVo service = 60 months (5 YEARS !) before DirecTiVo starts to cost more and E*'s monthly fee "savings" pay any dividends. Long before then new, cheaper, faster, all-around better technology will abound.

Get 2 of them and the differences grow -

2 721's = $1000
2 DirecTiVo's = $400
Difference = $600

$600/$4.99 service = 120 months (10 YEARS !!) before the 721's become "cheaper" than the DirecTiVo's.

So who really has the less expensive PVR again, based on hardware costs plus the dreaded monthly fee ?


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## greylar (Oct 31, 2002)

I just wanted to jump in and say that I have had the 721 for a few weeks now and find it pretty stable. The "bounce to live when done recording" bug is the only one that I have noticed and I can live with that until it gets fixed. I think the thing to keep in mind is that when you go to a forum you are going to get the worst of the worst. Very few people are going to hop on everyday and say "Wow I didn't have any bugs today!!". But someone who isn't happy will post their disappointment in a heart beat.
_Quote: What confuses me is why this device is so buggy. I'm a professional computer programmer with a degree in electrical engineering and it seems like it should be pretty straightforward to make the software bug-free._

This is not intended as a flame but you mean to tell me that you have never written a piece of code with a bug that wasn't discovered until later? In fact I can't think of a piece of software that I have used that didn't require at least one patch. The real question is did the company patch it, or did they leave their customers hanging?

My two cents,
No I don't work for E*
Greylar


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## SkiManiac (Nov 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski _
> *I personally can not understand why every Dish Network receiver is never shipped with all its features enabled.
> 
> When I buy a receiver it should have all the features mentioned out of the box. I hate this wait 6 months to a year to get features which should come with the box. *


  That's Dish for ya. I agree Scott, why pay a lot then wait another six months to be able to do all the things you want with it?


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by greylar _
> *This is not intended as a flame but you mean to tell me that you have never written a piece of code with a bug that wasn't discovered until later? In fact I can't think of a piece of software that I have used that didn't require at least one patch. The real question is did the company patch it, or did they leave their customers hanging?
> 
> My two cents,
> ...


That said, TiVo and UTV have no issues...


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## greylar (Oct 31, 2002)

Yea I know, Tivo is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  But it has its issues too.


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## tckerrigan (Nov 19, 2002)

"This is not intended as a flame but you mean to tell me that you have never written a piece of code with a bug that wasn't discovered until later? In fact I can't think of a piece of software that I have used that didn't require at least one patch. The real question is did the company patch it, or did they leave their customers hanging?"

Bugs are a fact of life but there's a difference between computer software and software for an embedded system. When was the last time you had to patch the software in your TV, VCR, DSP stereo receiver, or DVD player?

Half my point was that even if you have bugs, you can still make the system fault tolerant.

-Tom


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## Bill D (May 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by spanishannouncetable _
> *
> 
> "supposedly" is right
> ...


I don't want to get into a TiVo vs 721 war, I agree the Tivo is more stable, but it has no UHF remote and a smaller hardrive, (about $150 upgrade atleast for both ??) plus you have to bust open the box and probably void any warranty. Also does Tivo have a 30 sec skip??. Add in the possible internet access on the 721, I think that the 721 isn't as overpriced as it sounds.
Bill


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## raj2001 (Nov 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *
> 
> That said, TiVo and UTV have no issues... *


They have very few issues. Nothing's perfect, but they're pretty close. (I owned both).


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Ahh the smaller number of folks in the devlopment team the less the chance a pirate might be one of them. I think this iswhy itsal done in house.

E management suspects they have a pirate supporter in the operation....


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Since the first post here was addressing the 508 I will reply about it. I love it. So far I really do not see any bugs. There may be few things I wish it did, but it sure seems to do what it is supposed to. And at $199 sure seems like a good deal. But ...... certainly many people with the older dishplayer have been thru many bugs and in my opinion should have been given better customer service. (I never owned one)


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## spanishannouncetable (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bill D _
> *
> 
> I don't want to get into a TiVo vs 721 war, I agree the Tivo is more stable, but it has no UHF remote and a smaller hardrive, (about $150 upgrade atleast for both ??) plus you have to bust open the box and probably void any warranty. Also does Tivo have a 30 sec skip??. Add in the possible internet access on the 721, I think that the 721 isn't as overpriced as it sounds.
> Bill *


Well, if a UHF remote is a deal breaker, then a DirecTiVo doesn't have that. I solved that problem with a pair of IR-UHF pyramid-shaped remote senders for $30 - works great.

DirecTiVos can be easily upgraded by the user with a standard hard drive. I've seen 120gig drives for as little as $50 after rebate. Drives that go bad can also be replaced by the user - an hour of drive swapping and your back in business. Echostar recorders can't be upgraded nor can drives be user-replaced for any amount of money (at least, not yet). $200 DirecTiVo + $50 drive = a 145 hour DirecTiVo vs. $500 for a 90hour 721. If the warranty is an issue, buy 2 DirecTiVos, and enjoy 80 gigs of 4-tuner recording for $400  .

Yes, the DirecTiVo has a 30 second skip. It's enabled by entering a 6-button code on the remote (Select-Play-Select-3-0-Select, I think). I used to use it, but found the 2xFF scan w/jumpback stop works better. The scan lets me see the occasional movie trailer or promo for a show I might have missed.

I have a computer for the internet. I want it to work there properly. I want my TV recorder to do just one thing - record what I tell it to PERIOD. No missed recordings, no corrupted files, no disappearing shows. I had a 501 for a year and if Echostar's future internet browser on the 721 is as good as the 501 software I used...

well, lets just say the 501 is what made me buy a DirecTiVo in the first place


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

I've had a 721 for a month and haven't had any problems with missed timers. The one thing that really bugs me is when one tuner is recording and another timer is set and it gives that stupid message instead of just changing the channel and recording on the second tuner. The main reason I got it was for the two tuners, I didn't even know it was supposed to have the internet access or other stuff anyway, so I don't really care that it doesn't have them.

Does the $200 DirecTivo have two tuners?

Dennis


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## James_F (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dbronstein _
> *Does the $200 DirecTivo have two tuners?*


Yep


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## spanishannouncetable (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by dbronstein _
> *Does the $200 DirecTivo have two tuners?
> 
> Dennis *


Yes. You can switch between them instantly by pushing the DOWN arrow button.

It also buffers both tuners constantly, each buffer holding 30 minutes. It sometimes, but not always, notifies you if it is about to change channels on either the current or other tuner, depending on scheduling.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

While there are only a finite number of ways to use a program correctly, there are an INFINITE number of ways to screw up. Obviously then, no finite number of beta testers can test all possible ways to screw up!
- Bruce Powell, 9/19/92


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## Bill Simonsen (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by spanishannouncetable _
> *
> 
> So who really has the less expensive PVR again, based on hardware costs plus the dreaded monthly fee ?   *


 You forgot one variable- what is the minimum monthly service payment you can make, to pay off your subsidized equipment for xx months??


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## jerryyyyy (Jul 19, 2002)

I agree with the original post. I have written tons of code that is very stable. I cannot use it for data colection in research until it is stable and I see no reason why this software should not be stable- I think they are skimping on manpower. THis should not be rocket science.

But, this is not unusual policy, just look at Microsoft- they send nothing but buggy stuff out all the time- try Outlook with Active Sync on an IPAQ! 

Anyway, this thing works better now with the latest update and I can live with it.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Dish is not alone in the bug department. I am visiting some friends with a TWC pvr box, and they were recording 2 shows, and watching them both using Picture in Picture. They were flipping back and forth heavily between the two shows they were recording in PIP and the box gave up and rebooted.


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## mkovacs (Nov 26, 2002)

It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that Microsoft
wrote the software (Windows CE is the OS) for the Dish 500 series. This may explain the problems with the 500 series
PVRs and that Dish is doing the 721. 
I have been a Dish subscriber since 1997 and had the model 5000 which I was very happy with. I have been wanting a PVR for over a year and when I heard about the 721 I decided to wait for it to arrive. I got mine just over a month ago and couldn't be happier. (well if I got it for free I could be happier) I have had
a few quirky problems with but nothing serious enough to worry about. I know (based upon my 5000 experience) that Dish will upgrade the system to impove its performance and stability.
One thing for sure the PVR feature has changed the way I watch TV.


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## spanishannouncetable (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bill Simonsen _
> *You forgot one variable- what is the minimum monthly service payment you can make, to pay off your subsidized equipment for xx months?? *


HDVR2 units are $199 for new and existing subs alike. New subs get a $50 rebate (so it's $149 at Circuit City anyway) and a 1-year commitment to Total Choice @ $31.99 a month.

Existing subs only keep whatever they want - no extra commitment, no extra programming. If they have, or upgrade to, Total Choice Premier (all TC+/HBO/SHO/STARZ/Sports Pak) @ $81.99 a month the TiVo fee is waived. If all you have is NFL Sunday Ticket, you just pay for that + $4.99 a month during football season when your sub is active. Either way, and with anything in between, the equipment is still $199.


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## Bill Simonsen (Oct 4, 2002)

I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but I've been at this stuff for quite a while, back to when FM going stereo was the news that stood the industry on its ear. Right now, I've got a TiVo in the closet, and a 721 and 301 up and running (quite nicely, thank you.) I don't recall what DTV is charging monthly for the Tivo part of their service, but direct from TiVo I was paying 13 dollars a month and I think that is too much. I know you can pay them a 'lifetime' flat fee, but face it, a 'lifetime' in this industry is about 18 mos., so I don't think you end up ahead like that.

The 721 is much faster than TiVo with PIP, etc. (It reminds me of back when we used to fiddle with disk cache pgms with our PC's- remember Hyperdisk?- you can tell when the 721 has things in its cache, as opposed to hitting the disk for it.) Being able to record two channels at once is a great bennie. I assume that TiVo could do that if they just enabled the code, and predict that they will 'build it in' to a newer machine.
TiVo is, of course, much better with its program management. It does *not* have commercial skip, as somebody above implies. The workaround for 30" skip is an unauthorized hack, and while it works fine, there is no guarantee that it will always work- look at what Replay is going through for that.
Finally, TiVo is in serious money trouble, and when these things (PVR's) start popping up in TV's, etc. TiVo will be gone. I don't think it will happen this Xmas, but as soon as Sony, or whoever, gets the picture and starts selling a PVR and calling it a VCR, that will be the end of TiVo.

-Bill


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Well dont you think the 508 should be the receiver to compare to the tivo $199 unit? The 508 is $299 for the receiver, maybe a little cheaper, without the $10 a month fee, and I am sure that it has a larger hard drive and all of the drive space is for the 'best' quality mode unlike the tivo unit in which to get the most hours it has to be the 'poor' quality mode. You would make up for the extra cost in like a year or less therefore you would make up for the cost of the unit in about 2-3 years with the fees you would not have to pay to tivo. 

The extra money one has to put into the 721 could be considered for the extra tuner, UHF remote, internet access, larger hard drive, etc. 

The thing is, dont Directv have a special deal for only $5 a month on the tivo with a certain package and aint the $199 unit tivo has a two tuner product? If so then it would be a better deal to get the Tivo unit in that case. It is also a more steady product. It has features that Dish does not have.


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## spanishannouncetable (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bill Simonsen _
> *...I don't recall what DTV is charging monthly for the Tivo part of their service, but direct from TiVo I was paying 13 dollars a month and I think that is too much. I know you can pay them a 'lifetime' flat fee, but face it, a 'lifetime' in this industry is about 18 mos., so I don't think you end up ahead like that.
> 
> ...Being able to record two channels at once is a great bennie. I assume that TiVo could do that if they just enabled the code, and predict that they will 'build it in' to a newer machine.
> ...


A lot of what you knock TiVo about applies only to Stand-alones, and it doesn't apply in this thread. The thread starter wanted to know why E* PVR's have so many problems, and since E*'s PVRs are integrated, they should only be compared to other integrated PVR units.

Directv collects $4.99 a month for their TiVo service on all receivers tied to the subscribers ACCOUNT, or FREE with TC Premier, with no lifetime option. TiVo collects $12.99 a month or $249 lifetime for SA users, tied to EACH UNIT. I agree that SA users pay too much, but Directv does not overcharge.

The DirecTiVo has been ready to record 2 channels since day one. The hardware was built-in, and was enabled by software a few months after it was released. Current SA TiVos cannot EVER record 2 channels at once, and future units would only be able to do this if 2 encoders and 2 sets of inputs were available. There will be no software upgrade to enable 2-tuner recording for SA's.

RePlay's 30 sec skip AUTOMATICALLY skips commercials during playback - THAT is what they in trouble over. The 30 sec. skip on all TiVos is not an "unauthorized hack". It was built in by the TiVo people themselves as an UNADVERTISED function. All you do is hit a few buttons on the remote, then hit the newly-mapped 30 sec skip button on the remote, just like the 50x/721. It works great. There is no "guarantee" it will remain, as there is also no "guarantee" Echostar will allow the function to continue in the next 501/508/721/921 software revision. If program providers (Disney, GE, Paramount, etc) started threatening and/or winning lawsuits with D* or E* over commercial skip, they would both remove it. Besides, I tried it and disabled it. I like the 2xFF scan better.

"Finally, TiVo is in serious money trouble..." = pure, smelly FUD. I've been reading this statement for a long time now, yet TiVo chugs right along, increasing subscribership and closing in on profitablility. TiVo is NOT about to go away any time soon. Sony, in fact, increased their already tight relationship with TiVo and licensed the TiVo software for their next hardware release. Guess what Sony is calling it ?

A TiVo. Imagine that 

Jacob S


> The thing is, dont Directv have a special deal for only $5 a month on the tivo with a certain package and aint the $199 unit tivo has a two tuner product? If so then it would be a better deal to get the Tivo unit in that case. It is also a more steady product. It has features that Dish does not have.


Yes, the HDVR2 and Series 1 DirecTiVo are both 2-tuner products.
$4.99 a month, or free with TC Premier - not a special. That's the everyday price to all customers.
And after owning a 501, I couldn't agree with your last statement more


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