# Ongoing issues with D* and green pixelation is driving me insane!!



## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

First, a little background:

We had DirecTV installed in December of 07 and hadn't experienced any issues until March. My receiver is an HR21 and my TV is a Pioneer PDP-5080HD. They are connected via HDMI, but we've also tried component video (which didn't fix the issue).

DirecTV has been to my house 4 times over the course of 30 days or so. We are experiencing an issue where the screen gets all green and pixelated/garbled. The audio doesn't cut out, but the image gets all haywire. It happpens the most with local HD channels, so I started watching them over an OTA antenna, but also recording them to the DVR. The green pixelation issue never occurs while watching using the OTA antenna, but it does occur while watching through D*'s receiver. Due to this I tried using component cables instead of HDMI to be sure that the receiver and TV weren't experiencing HDMI handshake issues, however this did not resolve the problem. 

Since I troubleshot all that I could, technician's have been out to my house 4 times. I've even had a supervisor/case worker assigned to me; he calls me once a week to see how things are. Anyway, here is what has been done thus far:

- Multiple receivers have been replaced.
- The BBC's have been swapped out half a dozen times.
- The "round" portion of the dish has been replaced.
- The LNB assembly has been replaced.
- All cabling has been replaced.
- All connections have been checked and re-secured a number of times.
- The ground has been replaced and re-secured.
- The newest software has been installed.
- My caseworker has contacted the local networks and the broadcaster to have them investigate any issue. The report back was that there are no issue on their end.

Is there anything else left to do? As far as I know, everything has been replaced. The dish also gets good signals and is positioned "in the best spot possible." It has a clear shot to the sky, but it is near power lines (don't know if that makes a difference).

In lieu of all this, I turn to you veterans for help. I am new at this, but I am an IT and A/V guy and have certainly helped D* rule out as many things as possible. At this point none of us know what to do next. Any suggestions or explanations would be wonderful! My case worker is going to call me back on Sunday and I'd hate to have to tell him that I'm still having the issue (we'll see if I do tonight while watching ABC and NBC HD programming). 

A couple of things that I will try are replacing my surge protector with a new surge protector/power conditioning unit. Also, I will find out where my electrical and utilities are grounded. I don't know if that stuff can cause an issue, but I feel it best to check anyway. 

Please help!

Thanks!

P.S. I have attached pictures of what the issue looks like when it occurs.


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## dmk679 (Sep 14, 2007)

What kind of dish do you have? I swapped out my at-9 with a slimline and my pixelation problems went away. Sat signals were good with at-9 but was still getting pixelation and 771 errors.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Haven't "we" been here already? :lol: 
You will get more "eyes" on your problem here, but.....


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

VOS -  Yes, we've been there done that, but it was recommended that I post here because, like you said, I'll get more eyes on the problem. You've been a HUGE help, so please don't take offense to me posting here. 

I have that slimline dish...something with a 5 in it. Sorry, don't remember the exact model.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> VOS -  Yes, we've been there done that, but it was recommended that I post here because, like you said, I'll get more eyes on the problem. You've been a HUGE help, so please don't take offense to me posting here.
> 
> I have that slimline dish...something with a 5 in it. Sorry, don't remember the exact model.


I'm glad you came over to the "bright side". 

You will find many people here that can [will try to] help.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Does this happen on the national HD channels or just your HD Locals.

What specific DMA are you in for your locals? Which locals are you attempting to receive

If you rewind and playback, do you get the same green pixels..

What do your signals look like on 99 and 103s..


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks, VOS; I certainly hope so.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Does this happen on the national HD channels or just your HD Locals.
> 
> What specific DMA are you in for your locals? Which locals are you attempting to receive
> 
> ...


It happens more on local HD channels, but it has also happened on TBS and Discovery. Heck it just happened now on ABC as I type this. 

What is a DMA? I receive ABC, NBC, Fox and CBS. The issue happens on ABC more than any other channel. It has happened four times in the past hour on ABC.

The issue does occur if I rewind a recorded or live show. I just had my wife rewind the live news cast and it happened at the same spot.

I live in Wisconsin, so I assume the "s" in parentheses after 103 and 99 means south? I sure hope so, because my signals are bad on those Satellites.

On 103 (s): 
1-8: All zeros
9-16: All zeros or N/A 
17-24: 73, 95, 0, 85, 49, 0, 0, 0
25-32: All N/A

On 99 (s):
1-8: 46, 96, 52, 95, 47, 95, N/A, N/A
9-16: All N/A
17-24: All N/A
25-32: Al N/A

On 103 (c):
1-8: 86, 88, 85, 86, 83, 85, 83, 86
9-16: 85, 85, 84, 86, 84, 86, N/A, N/A
17-24: 71, N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, 92, N/A, N/A
25-32: All N/A

On 110:
1-8: N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, 86
9-16: N/A, 80, N/A, 87, N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, 
17-24: All N/A
25-32: All N/A

On 119:
1-8: All N/A
9-16: All N/A
17-24: N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, N/A, 80, 88, 80
25-32: 73, 87, 89, 88, 75, 91, 0, 92

On 101:
1-8: 95, 95, 95, 0, 93, 100, 95, 100
9-16: 94, 96, 95, 0, 95, 100, 94, 100
17-24: 85, 100, 89, 0, 93, 100, 92, 100
25-32: 81, 100, 82, 97, 92, 100, 89, 100

Okay...that took forever to type. Time for bed. Thanks for all the input guys. I'd love to put this issue to rest and find a "fix" for it.

I'll be back here in the morning. Good night all!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

DMA is "where are your locals coming from?" what market/city?

"S" is for spot beams while ""C" is for CONUS [national]


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I get the green pixelation occasionally as well. If fact, it happened tonight when we watched survivor from the local affiliate in HD (Dallas DMA).

I'd say I notice it about once per week, but it's usually a pretty quick flash (no more than 1 second).

All my signal strengths are good.

I'll try to pay more attention next time and see what happens when I rewind, etc.


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

Just F-Everybody's-Y: poor Nuance has been through HELL with this problem! He has ramped up several notches in escalation, including now having a "Case Worker" (which seems really pathetic somehow; "case worker" seems like something you would have if you were on Welfare...) His case worker (I believe) has confirmed that D* is NOT seeing pixelation on their feeds from local stations, so this means that either (a) they're lying, or (b) the problem is LOCAL to Nuance's installation.

Over on AVSFORUM, we were tossing around the idea of highly concentrated local RF interference. One very wise person (OK, it was me!) suggested:
_"... it's your whole county (-> transponder on bird) 
... or just your block (-> insane ham-radio operator)
... or just your house (-> built over Native American burial site?)  "_

Other suggestions included local radar, a multipath reflection of the satellite signal, or even welding activity. It would sure help if someone technical could comment on the possibility of local RF interference affecting the satellite signal in such a way as to cause this pixelation. It's my understanding that it's not common, but also not IMPOSSIBLE for a strong RF signal to interfere with even a digital satellite TV signal.

I haven't heard from Nuance whether he saw anybody taking readings with a meter during this last visit, and this is where my tech starts to run dry: I know that with cable TV, they can use something similar to a spectrum analyser to look at the signal coming off the coax, to see if there is substantial out-of-band interference. They can also check the ambient environment for the existence of such interference. Cable guys also have some fancy (read:expensive) meters which can be left on a coax line for 24 hours or so, and supposedly pretty much monitor everything that goes on. Does anyone know if any of this type of troubleshooting is relevant to satellite transmission? Is there specific gear that someone knows that D* posesses, and could maybe direct Nuance on what to ask them to bring out?

If it is an insane ham-radio operator in Nuance's neighborhood, technically it wouldn't be D*'s problem; but you would think it would be in their best interest to help him figure out what's going on. Or maybe the FCC would be willing to come out and check for interference (since it probably violates some of their regulations, if it's happening.)

Thanks,
GB


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses guys.

My local channels are coming from the Milwaukee, WI market. I live about 18 miles north of Milwaukee and have no troubles picking of the local HD channels via my OTA antenna. I don't know why I have issues with D*...

Spartan - 
It is disturbing to hear that someone else is having this issue from the forums as well. In fact, a gentlemen who lives in Milwaukee is having the exact same issue, according to my technician, even though everything has been replaced. 

So, how do my signals look fellas? I would imagine I'm using Satellite 101 for SD and 110 for HD. Does that sound right?

Last night was a total downer because the issue happened again 4 times after the D* techs left. Needless to say this is very frustrating. I really want to keep D* because, when working, everything is great. The PQ is wonderful and all the HD channels make me grin. I do NOT want to go back to Time Warner. 

Thanks to those who've helped thus far; you've been a huge help! Please keep it coming!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Would you please makeup your mind as to where we're going to talk about this. :lol: 
Nice to see you came here too.
With my background: 
1) interference in the SAT signal is highly unlikely [Do you know what it takes to jam one?]
2) From the dish to the receiver the IF is much more possible and all the way through to the AC power cord [AC line noise].

FWIW: Nuance has had everything replaced at least once.


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## ncxcstud (Apr 22, 2007)

do you have any other HDTV to see if it still happens on that one?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> So, how do my signals look fellas? I would imagine I'm using Satellite 101 for SD and 110 for HD. Does that sound right?


I would guess your local HD is coming off 103s #18 [the 95%], but they also could be off the 99s since you also have a couple of 95% there too.
All of the "new" HD channels are coming off the 103c SAT.
As you can see those levels are high enough to "not be" an issue.


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

As much as I hate to say it - Try another HDTV for a week and see if you still see the problem since you've replaced the boxes, cableing, and the dish.


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## jcormack (Jan 19, 2007)

Can you tie the pixilation events to anything else starting/stopping in your home? things like your furnace fan, HVAC, refrig, etc. ? Does your furnace or HVAC have a variable speed fan? Do you have a "sub-panel" breaker box (a remote breaker panel from the "main") feeding a garage or other parts of the home? Some noise could be induced into your coaxial wires due to bad or "improper" neutral / grnd connections in your house wiring. A bad or loose neutral connection to the POCO's transformer can cause your 120 circuits to do some radical voltage shifts in relation to earth..I would have a good electrician do a sweep of your home wiring if you have not already done so. You can see if you have harmonics from any local industrial plants, etc. Cables to your TV OK? Do you use digital (HDMI) or component? Have you tried switching from HDMI to component or vice-versa? Are you in a normal fly-by area to an airport?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Nuance said:


> Thanks for all the responses guys.
> 
> My local channels are coming from the Milwaukee, WI market. I live about 18 miles north of Milwaukee and have no troubles picking of the local HD channels via my OTA antenna. I don't know why I have issues with D*...
> 
> ...


Try watching the OTA and look real close for any tiny blocks.. these tend to get enlarged to the green blocks you see on the sat..


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jcormack said:


> Do you use digital (HDMI) or component? Have you tried switching from HDMI to component or vice-versa?


Both connections have been tried and both show the same issue.


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## jaguar325 (Jan 2, 2006)

I know you say that you have a clear shot at the sky.. but given the angle that the signal is coming in, are you sure there is not a tree or possibly even the power lines that could be in the way? Or, during times of wind, trees or power lines swinging into the path of the signal. Some of your readings don't look that strong.. especially on 103 and 99. 

I live in the north too and have had problems picking up Sat 99 (B) since it came on-line several years ago (with the small number of original HD channels). What makes this sat so hard to get is that it is the one lowest to the horizon (or at least that is my understanding of the situation). Adding to this problem is that I am surrounded by pine trees (don't even get a break in the winter) and as they get taller, I have to keep jacking up my dish to get clearance. I can normally get all the other sats at 95+ meter readings consistently but I am lucky to keep 99/B above 65. It's enough to get the channels coming from that sat most of the time but, when there is a problem, the loss of picture looks just like the examples you posted. The rest of my channels will still come in fine but that range of channels is the first to go.

If my experience has any bearing on yours, it had to do with me having just barely enough clearance to get past the tree tops.. if there was a lot of wind and they would blow back and forth, I would sometimes get the pixelation. When I had my Slimline dish installed last year, the tech told me that I didn't have my old dish secured very well (it was up in the air 3-4 feet on an extender with no braces) and this was contributing enough "sway" in heavy winds to also get pixelation on the fringe channels. I have not noticed a wind-caused problem since he put the new dish on and added two additional side braces.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

99s & 103s are spot beams and Nuance shows 95%, so that should be good. 103c is in the mid 80s, so they too should be good.
From your location the 119 SAT should be the lowest and the 99 the highest. Here out west it's the other way around, with 119 the highest and 99 the lowest. All the SATs are equal above the equator, so it's really just the east/west position the makes them lower at "your location".


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

It seems this problem primarily effects HD locals. There was brief reference to TNT and Discovery. It's fairly important to determine if this problem is isolated to the local HD's, and the TNT and Discovery reports are just the occasional glitches seen on almost all channels from time to time.

From what city in Wisconsin does Nuance receive his HD locals? Greenbay (99), Madison (103), or Milwaukee (103)? Other than *Carl Spock*, I don't recall a lot of Wisconsin posters who could say or not say that they have the same problems with _their_ HD locals. Has Nuance visited the AVSForum website for his DMA to determine if anyone else is experiencing these problems with DirecTV-provided HD locals?

It's somewhat telling that Nuance reports most of his problems with the ABC affiliate, but maybe that's just because he watches more ABC than other channels. That would tend to point more toward a problem in the affiliate-to-DirecTV re-broadcast chain, which has many links. (Anyone remember the movie with the Japanese interrogator threatening to torture the captured American pilot in Tokyo: "Remember Captain, I chain is no stronger than its weakest link.....")

Nuance I believe reported no audio problems. Is that true universally with all the HD locals (assuming this is perhaps isolated to the HD locals)?

Generally speaking, it's highly unlikely that Nuance's signals are receiving RF interference from any nearby sources, ham, CB, broadcast or otherwise. The lowest IF frequency used, that for 103(c), is still a UHF signal, and all the rest are over 1 ghz. It would be very unusual to experience RFI at these frequencies from HF transmitters, unless they were operated in the same structure using the same ground system. We do know that the -700 (Pace) version of the HR20 _is_ subject, however, to interference from nearby computers, electric light dimmers, and other such "noisy" devices. Were all four of Nuance's receivers HR21-700's?

So let's start at the beginning and determine whether or not this is exclusively a local HD problem

[Edit:] I wrote this at 9 am and forgot to push the "Send" button.  My apologies to subsequent posters for any duplicate rec's.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

"My local channels are coming from the Milwaukee, WI market."
Nuance started on AVS and has come "over here" for "real help". :lol:


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

ncxcstud said:


> do you have any other HDTV to see if it still happens on that one?


No sir, I do not. But I previously had Time Warner connected through HDMI and had zero issues. I also had no issues until March of this year. I should ask... could my OTA Antenna be interfering? I didn't install it until around January, so I dunno...



veryoldschool said:


> I would guess your local HD is coming off 103s #18 [the 95%], but they also could be off the 99s since you also have a couple of 95% there too.
> All of the "new" HD channels are coming off the 103c SAT.
> As you can see those levels are high enough to "not be" an issue.


Cool. Thanks for the info pal.



jcormack said:


> Can you tie the pixilation events to anything else starting/stopping in your home? things like your furnace fan, HVAC, refrig, etc. ? Does your furnace or HVAC have a variable speed fan? Do you have a "sub-panel" breaker box (a remote breaker panel from the "main") feeding a garage or other parts of the home? Some noise could be induced into your coaxial wires due to bad or "improper" neutral / grnd connections in your house wiring. A bad or loose neutral connection to the POCO's transformer can cause your 120 circuits to do some radical voltage shifts in relation to earth..I would have a good electrician do a sweep of your home wiring if you have not already done so. You can see if you have harmonics from any local industrial plants, etc. Cables to your TV OK? Do you use digital (HDMI) or component? Have you tried switching from HDMI to component or vice-versa? Are you in a normal fly-by area to an airport?


I have not yet tried to tie the issue to any appliances in the home, but I can tell you that the issue occurs mainly at night and through the early a.m. hours. I will check to be sure all my utilities are grounded properly, such as the electric and water.

I don't know if my furnace has HVAC. How would I find out?

My garage is detached, so I don't know if the breaker box works with it.

That's a good idea about having an electrician do a sweep. I will schedule that; great idea! Thanks!

My cables that run to the box have been replaced twice, so those are good. I have tried both HDMI and component (two sets of each) but the issue remains.

I am about 30 miles from the airport.



houskamp said:


> Try watching the OTA and look real close for any tiny blocks.. these tend to get enlarged to the green blocks you see on the sat..


I will do that, though I have done it in the past (specifically with the TV show "Lost") and I saw zero issues while watching OTA, but I did get that green pixelation when watching the recording through D*s box.



jaguar325 said:


> I know you say that you have a clear shot at the sky.. but given the angle that the signal is coming in, are you sure there is not a tree or possibly even the power lines that could be in the way? Or, during times of wind, trees or power lines swinging into the path of the signal. Some of your readings don't look that strong.. especially on 103 and 99.
> 
> I live in the north too and have had problems picking up Sat 99 (B) since it came on-line several years ago (with the small number of original HD channels). What makes this sat so hard to get is that it is the one lowest to the horizon (or at least that is my understanding of the situation). Adding to this problem is that I am surrounded by pine trees (don't even get a break in the winter) and as they get taller, I have to keep jacking up my dish to get clearance. I can normally get all the other sats at 95+ meter readings consistently but I am lucky to keep 99/B above 65. It's enough to get the channels coming from that sat most of the time but, when there is a problem, the loss of picture looks just like the examples you posted. The rest of my channels will still come in fine but that range of channels is the first to go.
> 
> If my experience has any bearing on yours, it had to do with me having just barely enough clearance to get past the tree tops.. if there was a lot of wind and they would blow back and forth, I would sometimes get the pixelation. When I had my Slimline dish installed last year, the tech told me that I didn't have my old dish secured very well (it was up in the air 3-4 feet on an extender with no braces) and this was contributing enough "sway" in heavy winds to also get pixelation on the fringe channels. I have not noticed a wind-caused problem since he put the new dish on and added two additional side braces.


I have a tree off to the right of the dish, but even if the wind blows its not close enough to sway in the way of the Dish's path. I do, however have power lines right in front of the Dish's line of site. I wonder if that's the problem? Perhaps when the wind blows hard enough they get in the way, causing the green pixelation for 5-30 seconds at a time. Hmm...


K4SMX said:


> It seems this problem primarily effects HD locals. There was brief reference to TNT and Discovery. It's fairly important to determine if this problem is isolated to the local HD's, and the TNT and Discovery reports are just the occasional glitches seen on almost all channels from time to time.
> 
> From what city in Wisconsin does Nuance receive his HD locals? Greenbay (99), Madison (103), or Milwaukee (103)? Other than *Carl Spock*, I don't recall a lot of Wisconsin posters who could say or not say that they have the same problems with _their_ HD locals. Has Nuance visited the AVSForum website for his DMA to determine if anyone else is experiencing these problems with DirecTV-provided HD locals?
> 
> ...


Yes, it does only happen with HD channels, and it happens on TNT, Discovery and TBS during the late night hours. However, it happens with the local stations more than any other stations, mainly during the "prime time" hours.

I receive my locals from Milwaukee.

I have frequented AVS and sent quite a few PM's. VOS and George Be have been very helpful to me over there. But posting here...wow! It's like having 20 VOS's and 20 George Be's - Awesome! 

As far as the affiliate-to-DirecTV re-broadcast chain, my "caseworker" (Jason) spoke with the affiliates and had them monitor things. They watched from Monday through Wednesday of this week and reported zero issues back to Jason.

I _did_ have audio issues with all stations, but that has been fixed with the latest software release. As pertaining to the green pixelation issue, the audio never skips a beat, only the picture. Weird...

All of my DVR's have been HR21's.

I hope that helps and I sincerely thank you gentlemen for helping me out.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

veryoldschool said:



> "My local channels are coming from the Milwaukee, WI market."
> Nuance started on AVS and has come "over here" for "real help". :lol:


:lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> As pertaining to the green pixilation issue, the audio never skips a beat, only the picture. Weird...


There are many more video "bits" than audio, so this could be why it is affected [more]. There is some error correcting with both, so while audio could be missing "a few", the video can be missing many more.


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## gobuffs93 (Apr 1, 2008)

I am having the same issues (but with some audio drops and stuttering). But I am in Tyler, Texas. Was all good until a month and a half ago when we had a lightning strike that took out 4 or 5 receivers, the multiswitch and the LNBs. Ever since then, nothing but problems (even after swapping everything but the cabling out). Even the 5th dish that was unaffected from the lightning started having this pixelation issue so bad it was unwatchable and has since been replaced. Happens once in awhile more so on local stations. I guess I will have to try to 1) tune to the SD feeds, 2) make sure DD is off on all receivers, 3) ensure that there is no intereference due to the trees coming out in the past few weeks.

Reading on here, it seemed to me like the issue is not uncommon and many people are pointing towards the last software release? I am mistaken?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

gobuffs93 said:


> I am having the same issues (but with some audio drops and stuttering). But I am in Tyler, Texas. Was all good until a month and a half ago when we had a lightning strike that took out 4 or 5 receivers, the multiswitch and the LNBs. Ever since then, nothing but problems (even after swapping everything but the cabling out). Even the 5th dish that was unaffected from the lightning started having this pixelation issue so bad it was unwatchable and has since been replaced. Happens once in awhile more so on local stations. I guess I will have to try to 1) tune to the SD feeds, 2) make sure DD is off on all receivers, 3) ensure that there is no intereference due to the trees coming out in the past few weeks.
> 
> Reading on here, it seemed to me like the issue is not uncommon and many people are pointing towards the last software release? I am mistaken?


I doubt it is software as many many more would be reporting this.

In your case, with a lightning strike, I'd be inspecting EVERY connection/connector for signs of damage.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

I forgot to mention earlier, my dish has been re-secured recently, so it shouldn't be swaying in the wind.

gobuffs -

Sorry to hear about your issue...bummer.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> Yes, it does only happen with HD channels, and it happens on TNT, Discovery and TBS during the late night hours. However, it happens with the local stations more than any other stations, mainly during the "prime time" hours.


One possibility that I haven't seen mentioned....are there any radio broadcast towers nearby? From what I understand, some radio stations massively boost their signal strength at night, and that can cause interference....I know its a little out there as a possibility, but not unheard of.

Hell, oddest "local" problem I've heard....

an E* customer would lose signal for about 5 minutes every time she ordered a PPV. After numerous techs came out, cabling, receivers, dish all replaced....I get a call from this more than fed up customer (I'm a TSR for E*). After probing a little bit into "what else happens every time you order a PPV?" we finally figured out the issue. Every time the customer ordered a PPV, she would pop a bag of popcorn. If just so happens that her dish was mounted on the wall of the house on the other side of the was from her microwave. After a little testing, we determined it was the microwave running that cause the problem. Dish moved...problem solved...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

puckwithahalo said:


> One possibility that I haven't seen mentioned....are there any radio broadcast towers nearby? From what I understand, some radio stations massively boost their signal strength at night, and that can cause interference....I know its a little out there as a possibility, but not unheard of.


 The signal power doesn't go up, but the atmosphere becomes more conductive, but not enough and in the wrong frequency band.


> Hell, oddest "local" problem I've heard....
> 
> an E* customer would lose signal for about 5 minutes every time she ordered a PPV. After numerous techs came out, cabling, receivers, dish all replaced....I get a call from this more than fed up customer (I'm a TSR for E*). After probing a little bit into "what else happens every time you order a PPV?" we finally figured out the issue. Every time the customer ordered a PPV, she would pop a bag of popcorn. If just so happens that her dish was mounted on the wall of the house on the other side of the was from her microwave. After a little testing, we determined it was the microwave running that cause the problem. Dish moved...problem solved...


Now this is in the same band. Microwave ovens and SAT signals are very close and "minor" leakage from the oven will easily affect the LNBs.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> The signal power doesn't go up, but the atmosphere becomes more conductive, but not enough and in the wrong frequency band.


I've just heard of it as a possibility....just out of curiosity, why does the atmosphere become more conductive?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Nuance said:


> .....It is disturbing to hear that someone else is having this issue from the forums as well. In fact, a gentlemen who lives in Milwaukee is having the exact same issue, according to my technician, even though everything has been replaced.


This is highly important information. It again points to the "weakest link in the chain" theory of the true source of this problem, i.e., _not your equipment, its software, or your installation._ Everyone in your DMA probably is experiencing the exact same problems as you, yet very few complaints find there way either here or AVSForum.



> So, how do my signals look fellas? I would imagine I'm using Satellite 101 for SD and 110 for HD. Does that sound right?


Your signals are fine, and since you've already replaced your LNB, the satellite signals are not the problem. SD signals come from 101, and some from 119. HD channels 70, 71, and 73-78 come from 110. HD channels 72 and 79 come from 119. All the rest of the national HD channels come from 103(c).



Nuance said:


> .....Yes, it does only happen with HD channels, and it happens on TNT, Discovery and TBS during the late night hours. However, it happens with the local stations more than any other stations, mainly during the "prime time" hours.


You report having/ occasional issues with CH's 75/245, 278, and 247, in addition to your HD locals problem. You may have a separate issue with TNT, which is on the 110 satellite. What are your 110 signals on _tuner 2_? From what you've said, you have _no_ issues on any 103(c) channels other than 278 and 247.

This brings up the question as to whether the problems you're having on 278 and 247 are identical in appearance and duration as your HD locals problem. For example, if you spend all night tonight watching CH 278, are you definitely going to see problems, or is it more that you remember seeing a problem here or there in the past?

It curious that you describe problems mostly at night. This brings up the issues raised by *jcormack* and me above re: A/C power issues. Are you sure you have no light dimmers or nearby PC's in use at these hours? If not, you can test for this type of problem from other devices by switching circuit breakers off and back on while you're seeing the problem on any channel, although I suspect that from what we've seen so far, your problem is primarily with DirecTV's broadcast of your HD locals.



> As far as the affiliate-to-DirecTV re-broadcast chain, my "caseworker" (Jason) spoke with the affiliates and had them monitor things. They watched from Monday through Wednesday of this week and reported zero issues back to Jason......


This means very little, unless they are watching the DirecTV satellite signal re-broadcast of their channel, not what they think they're sending down the pipe.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

puckwithahalo said:


> I've just heard of it as a possibility....just out of curiosity, why does the atmosphere become more conductive?


It gets colder and so more dense. 
I get OTA fairly well in the winter and it fades as the heat of the summer kicks in.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> .
> Now this is in the same band. Microwave ovens and SAT signals are very close and "minor" leakage from the oven will easily affect the LNBs.


We do have a microwave but never use it while we watch or tape our shows.


K4SMX said:


> This is highly important information. It again points to the "weakest link in the chain" theory of the true source of this problem, i.e., _not your equipment, its software, or your installation._ Everyone in your DMA probably is experiencing the exact same problems as you, yet very few complaints find there way either here or AVSForum.


Well, that other guy who said he had a problem lives in Texas, so... And the gentleman my tech told me about lives 30 miles away.



K4SMX said:


> You report having/ occasional issues with CH's 75/245, 278, and 247, in addition to your HD locals problem. You may have a separate issue with TNT, which is on the 110 satellite. What are your 110 signals on _tuner 2_? From what you've said, you have _no_ issues on any 103(c) channels other than 278 and 247.


On tuner 2 they are the same as on tuner 1.



K4SMX said:


> This brings up the question as to whether the problems you're having on 278 and 247 are identical in appearance and duration as your HD locals problem. For example, if you spend all night tonight watching CH 278, are you definitely going to see problems, or is it more that you remember seeing a problem here or there in the past?


I cannot say for a fact that I will see them on those stations. I've only occasionally seen them. However, I can tell you for a fact that I'll see them on ABC when my wife watches "Dancing With The Stars" and on Thursdays when I watch "Lost" and my wife watches "Elie Stone." It never fails; always happens during those shows. It also very frequently happens during Fox's news broadcasts at 9 and 10 p.m.



K4SMX said:


> It curious that you describe problems mostly at night. This brings up the issues raised by *jcormack* and me above re: A/C power issues. Are you sure you have no light dimmers or nearby PC's in use at these hours? If not, you can test for this type of problem from other devices by switching circuit breakers off and back on while you're seeing the problem on any channel, although I suspect that from what we've seen so far, your problem is primarily with DirecTV's broadcast of your HD locals.


When you say light dimmers do you actually mean dimming switches, or do you mean the lights dim occasionally, possibly when an appliance turns on? If its the former, yes we have light dimming switches upstairs in the kitchen and bathroom. I sold my last PC build, so we only have a laptop, but it is connected to an APC1500 battery backup. You think that could be causing an issue?

The "living room" with the HR21 is downstairs in the basement, by the way.



K4SMX said:


> This means very little, unless they are watching the DirecTV satellite signal re-broadcast of their channel, not what they think they're sending down the pipe.


They were watching the D* satellite signal re-broadcast, at least that's what my case worker said.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> When you say light dimmers do you actually mean dimming switches, or do you mean the lights dim occasionally, possibly when an appliance turns on? If its the former, yes we have light dimming switches upstairs in the kitchen and bathroom. The "living room" with the HR21 is downstairs in the basement, by the way.


I would say if there is a light on a dimmer ANYWHERE in the house, you want to go turn it off or up full during the next "occurrence" and see what [if anything] happens.
They have been known to cause interference with DirecTV HD receivers.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

All my problems happen at night.. of course I'm not home durring the day (and not much HD availible then either :grin:


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## jcormack (Jan 19, 2007)

Heating Ventilation & Air Conditioning - Many of these systems today have variable speed fans, these may be AC choppers or Variable Freq controllers. Light Dimmers are most often AC choppers. I had a partial ground in the fan motor of my furnace - the current flowing back due to this ground was causing me to have noise on my stereo, analog TV, and some other devices when the fan kicked on.

You could even be picking problems from a neighbor's or a local factory. You mention a power line nearby. Any idea of the voltage class? The emf of the line changes based on the amount of current at the time. Also stray "leakage" ground flow from power lines/systems can cause many "odd" problems (google stray currrent). Now, I am not trying to say powerlines are "bad" (I live right beside a 138 KV line) & I work with industrial power for a living - just trying to point out some things to look at.


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## fairport (Oct 18, 2006)

Well, here is this issue again. It first surfaced, or at least was first documented, in Washington DC last year. Check out this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=68498&highlight=green

Notice the screenshots posted there. Compare them to the first post in the current thread. Look familiar?

The problem was also documented in this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=121138&highlight=green

I have seen people chase their tails repeatedly on this problem. Apparently, it relates to a piece of equipment at the local affiliate that handles the MPEG encoding. This gear was finally replaced at WJLA and the problem has disappeared in DC. It only took 18 months.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Nuance,

Could you take and post some pictures of your installation. Ones I'd like to see are a shot from behind the dish looking in the general direction the dish is pointing. Also one that shows both the dish and the power lines you mentioned.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Nuance said:


> ......On tuner 2 they are the same as on tuner 1.....


OK. That question only applied to TNT anyhow.



> .....I cannot say for a fact that I will see them on those stations. I've only occasionally seen them. However, I can tell you for a fact that I'll see them on ABC when my wife watches "Dancing With The Stars" and on Thursdays when I watch "Lost" and my wife watches "Elie Stone." It never fails; always happens during those shows. It also very frequently happens during Fox's news broadcasts at 9 and 10 p.m......


ABC and Fox are the most often mentioned networks currently with HD re-broadcast problems through DirecTV, based on my reading of the posts. NBC is next.



> .....When you say light dimmers do you actually mean dimming switches, or do you mean the lights dim occasionally, possibly when an appliance turns on? If its the former, yes we have light dimming switches upstairs in the kitchen and bathroom. I sold my last PC build, so we only have a laptop, but it is connected to an APC1500 battery backup. You think that could be causing an issue?....The "living room" with the HR21 is downstairs in the basement, by the way. .....


Place all dimming light switches in the "off" position. It's true as V.O.S. says, that "full on" reduces noise from these, but in my experience it does not always totally eliminate it.

I'm not sure why you have a battery-operated laptop connected to a giant UPS, but you can always turn it off temporarily to test for RFI. All my laptops make RFI, but I haven't noticed any problems with my HR20-700, which is 15' away. Most PC problems reported were with desktops located right next to an HR20-700, so I would discount your laptop as a problem.



> .....They were watching the D* satellite signal re-broadcast, at least that's what my case worker said......


This would surprise me, as from what I've read, most TV stations don't actually do this. You could always speak to the station engineers about that matter as well as the problems you're having with their signals through DirecTV. They may know a lot more than they're willing to say, but you never know. You can perhaps figure out the name of the Chief Engineer from their website.

My understanding is that the most frequent problem in the chain is at the point where the mpeg2 video from the station is transcoded into mpeg4. The equipment which does this is at various stages of development in particular TV stations, or at DirecTV's concentration points, if the OTA signal is being used.


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## Eric The Red (Nov 6, 2007)

I am in Madison, WI and have been having the exact same issue since last fall... almost. The differences in my issue are that:

-- I lose audio
-- The screen typically goes grey, not green (though green has happened)
-- I have an HR-20 (replaced 2 times), not an HR-21

Otherwise all the exact same issues. Emphasis on HD-locals only.

K4SMX posted that Madison was 103(s), yet D* tech support is always telling me 99(s)... does anyone know with any certainty which is correct?

Lastly, I would be skeptical of anyone who called it an affiliate issue, as (at least for me) it happens on all 4 major networks and you'd think that the local D* techs would be bombarded with complaints.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I get the green pixelation occasionally as well. If fact, it happened tonight when we watched survivor from the local affiliate in HD (Dallas DMA).
> 
> I'd say I notice it about once per week, but it's usually a pretty quick flash (no more than 1 second).
> 
> ...


I saw it, too, on Dallas' CBS during Survivor.

It was also occurring on our NBC last night.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

puckwithahalo said:


> I've just heard of it as a possibility....just out of curiosity, why does the atmosphere become more conductive?


If you listen to AM radio the signals go much further at night. This is the reason many local stations must reduce their power at sunset and some go off the air. Once the local Bridgewater,NJ station goes off the air I can listen to WWVA. In the past when traveling I couls listen to WABC AM from NYC in Iowa at night. WABC being what used to be called a clear channle frequency. Whereas WCTC in New brunswick NJ barely reaches Green Brook,NJ since that is a frequency used by many lower power local stations.

The reason for this is tied to the Ionosphere as I remember it from my school days. At Night it rises up and thus a signal gets reflected with fewer bounces off of the ground causing higher signal strength. Each bounce reduces signal strength. By day the suns rays force the Ionosphere lower so signals don't travel as well.
More information here: http://science.jrank.org/pages/5661/Radio-Radio-signal-propagation.html

I seem to remember that we are in a period where long distance DX'ing of Television signals is enhanced. Maybe that is part of it.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Is the HR21 the only D* receiver on your system? If not, have you tried completely disconnecting (from the coax feeds and power) the other receivers? It’s possible that a bad receiver could be back-feeding interference into your HR21.


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## breevesdc (Aug 14, 2007)

fairport said:


> Well, here is this issue again. It first surfaced, or at least was first documented, in Washington DC last year. Check out this thread:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=68498&highlight=green
> 
> ...


+1

I was going to post the exact same thing that fairport did. WJLA replaced this equipment about 6-8 weeks ago. It was a peice of equipment that D* shipped to the local affilliate as I recall. It resolved the problem and we have not seen it since. This was a problem that I saw only on ABC and ESPN broadcasts.

Brian


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I would say if there is a light on a dimmer ANYWHERE in the house, you want to go turn it off or up full during the next "occurrence" and see what [if anything] happens.
> They have been known to cause interference with DirecTV HD receivers.


Okay, I can do that. But why would a dimmer interfere if its not being used at all when watching/recording out shows?



fairport said:


> Well, here is this issue again. It first surfaced, or at least was first documented, in Washington DC last year. Check out this thread:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=68498&highlight=green
> 
> ...


18 months? Wow... :nono2: 
Thanks for the link BTW. I guess this will never get solved because one man (me) isn't going to be able to convince the local affiliates at ABC and FOX to change their equipment. Bummer...



RobertE said:


> Nuance,
> 
> Could you take and post some pictures of your installation. Ones I'd like to see are a shot from behind the dish looking in the general direction the dish is pointing. Also one that shows both the dish and the power lines you mentioned.


I will do that shortly and will report back with pics.


K4SMX said:


> I'm not sure why you have a battery-operated laptop connected to a giant UPS, but you can always turn it off temporarily to test for RFI. All my laptops make RFI, but I haven't noticed any problems with my HR20-700, which is 15' away. Most PC problems reported were with desktops located right next to an HR20-700, so I would discount your laptop as a problem.


I recently sold my PC rig, but it was a quad core system overclocked to a 3.6 with an 8800 Ultra and 8 gigs of ram. I had a 700 Watt PC P&C power supply in it...a nice system IMO. I didn't want it to get killed by a voltage spike or power outage, so I had it running through an APC1500. Since the unit is still there, I just plug the laptop into it now. 



rudeney said:


> Is the HR21 the only D* receiver on your system? If not, have you tried completely disconnecting (from the coax feeds and power) the other receivers? It's possible that a bad receiver could be back-feeding interference into your HR21.


This is the only HD DVR receiver; the other is in our bedroom and is just a non-DVR standard box. I can try disconnecting it if you think it may cause an issue.



breevesdc said:


> +1
> 
> I was going to post the exact same thing that fairport did. WJLA replaced this equipment about 6-8 weeks ago. It was a peice of equipment that D* shipped to the local affilliate as I recall. It resolved the problem and we have not seen it since. This was a problem that I saw only on ABC and ESPN broadcasts.
> 
> Brian


Well, I guess we know what the problem is now. The trick will be to get it fixed, which I worry will never happen. I am just one guy...what can I do?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> Okay, I can do that. But why would a dimmer interfere if its not being used at all when watching/recording out shows?


 Either full on or full off should "take it[them] out of the loop. It's the dimming state that causes the problems.


> Well, I guess we know what the problem is now. The trick will be to get it fixed, which I worry will never happen. I am just one guy...what can I do?


***** and keep *****ing until it gets fixed. In many cases nobody knows there is a problem as it may only be checked once and a while [and is working then].


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## GTS (Mar 4, 2007)

Do you have a neighbor, with Directv HD, you can put on speed dial and compare notes with. This would break it down to a problem with the feed or your home/setup.

Have you noticed the temperature of the box during the outages, compared to say the earlier time frames. If you wait until the later time frame to turn the receiver on, do you still have the same problems? I know you've replaced the receivers, but if they are in the same environmental conditions, inside a cabinet with other components etc..., you'd more than likely have the same problems. 

The above paragraph should be interpreted as "GRASPING FOR STRAWS".


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## jodyguercio (Aug 16, 2007)

GTS said:


> Do you have a neighbor, with Directv HD, you can put on speed dial and compare notes with. This would break it down to a problem with the feed or your home/setup.
> 
> Have you noticed the temperature of the box during the outages, compared to say the earlier time frames. If you wait until the later time frame to turn the receiver on, do you still have the same problems? I know you've replaced the receivers, but if they are in the same environmental conditions, inside a cabinet with other components etc..., you'd more than likely have the same problems.
> 
> The above paragraph should be interpreted as "GRASPING FOR STRAWS".


Not grasping at all. Good idea, if someone else the OP can call is seeing the same thing then that can rule out anything in the OPs house. Outside factors become something to look at more then.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

puckwithahalo said:


> I've just heard of it as a possibility....just out of curiosity, why does the atmosphere become more conductive?


This phenomenon is called Radio Wave Propagation. The atmosphere does not become more conductive. There is a layer of the atmosphere called the ionosphere, which becomes ionized by the sun. This causes it to become more _reflective_ of radio signals at certain frequencies, not including satellite frequencies. During maximum sun spot years the frequency at which optimum reflection occurs rises from fairly low in the HF frequency band to above 30 mhz, occasionally all the way up into VHF TV frequencies.

The study of radio wave propagation is the fascinating pastime engaged in by ham radio operators interested in "DXing." Every day is different, although years of experience since the early 1930's have revealed certain repetitive patterns. For example, in the winter months communication between the US and Asia with remarkably good signals is frequently possible in the hours just after sunrise in the 14 mhz band by pointing the antenna to the SSW - the so-called "long path." During the same time period, "short path" communication between these two points at this frequency is not possible, even though it's thousands of miles shorter.

The sun is all-important, and radio hams have software available (or the delightful Geochron lighted maps) which show the current "terminator" of the sun on all points of the surface of the earth for the current day of the year.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

The box is not in an enclosed environment, so heat is not an issue. In fact, it's probably a steady 68 degrees in the basement. 

I will look around and see if anyone else in the neighborhood has a D* dish. I think there are a couple down the road. In fact, I think one guy has two dishes mounted on his roof (is that weird?). 

VOS, I will do my best to get this solved through the local affiliate. Do you guys have any suggestions on how I should go about this?

Here are the pictures as promised:


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## jodyguercio (Aug 16, 2007)

Nuance said:


> The box is not in an enclosed environment, so heat is not an issue. In fact, it's probably a steady 68 degrees in the basement.
> 
> I will look around and see if anyone else in the neighborhood has a D* dish. I think there are a couple down the road. In fact, I think one guy has two dishes mounted on his roof (is that weird?).
> 
> ...


The two dish setup is used as a work around when there is no clean LOS to all the sats...I think if yo do a search you'll find VOS is the one who started that thread but I could be wrong (its happened before NUMEROUS times  ). Are you sure that you arent getting emf interference from the power lines?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jodyguercio said:


> The two dish setup is used as a work around when there is no clean LOS to all the sats...I think if yo do a search you'll find VOS is the one who started that thread but I could be wrong (its happened before NUMEROUS times  ). Are you sure that you arent getting emf interference from the power lines?


That would be *Litzdog911*, but I've posted in that thread too. 
There could be a few reasons for two dishes: wanting the international programing, or maybe one is even dishnetwork :eek2:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> VOS, I will do my best to get this solved through the local affiliate. Do you guys have any suggestions on how I should go about this?


Most likely you would need to take a dual approach. Call DirecTV and have your issues forwarded to the "network broadcast center" and also try working with your local station's engineering. They can have better connections to the DirecTV engineering as it's in both of their interests to get it resolved.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Ugh. I don't think the HV lines are really the source of your problem, but just on principle, I wouldn't want to have my dish pointed right through them. It's pretty clear from your last photo that, even with adjusting for the ~25 degree LNB offset from center-line, that's what you're doing. If your dish was on the other side of your house, pointing up the other angle of your roof, you'd probably be shooting just over them, because of the increased horizontal distance from the utility easement. 

If it were a standard 240VAC house drop you were shooting through, I wouldn't worry about it, but those 15KV lines (or maybe higher) have a tremendous EMF around them. All that said, it would be a dissapointment to find that after moving the dish, you still have the same local HD problems that others in your area are "enjoying." If you had generalized "noise" on all your Ka-derived channels, I'd feel more strongly about it.

As far as contacting the station, a calmly-written, factual summary of the issue being experienced by you and others that you are personally aware of sent by mail to the station's chief engineer, with a copy to the station manager, should get some attention. Give them your e-mail address. A follow-up phone call would be in order if you don't get some response.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> As far as contacting the station, a calmly-written, factual summary of the issue being experienced by you and others that you are personally aware of sent by mail to the station's chief engineer, with a copy to the station manager, should get some attention. Give them your e-mail address. A follow-up phone call would be in order if you don't get some response.


I always liked the torches and pitchfork approach myself. :lol:


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Right! The lowly townspeople in full revolt. Heads on pikes....


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> Ugh. I don't think the HV lines are really the source of your problem, but just on principle, I wouldn't want to have my dish pointed right through them. It's pretty clear from your last photo that, even with adjusting for the ~25 degree LNB offset from center-line, that's what you're doing. If your dish was on the other side of your house, pointing up the other angle of your roof, you'd probably be shooting just over them, because of the increased horizontal distance from the utility easement.
> 
> If it were a standard 240VAC house drop you were shooting through, I wouldn't worry about it, but those 15KV lines (or maybe higher) have a tremendous EMF around them. All that said, it would be a dissapointment to find that after moving the dish, you still have the same local HD problems that others in your area are "enjoying." If you had generalized "noise" on all your Ka-derived channels, I'd feel more strongly about it.
> 
> As far as contacting the station, a calmly-written, factual summary of the issue being experienced by you and others that you are personally aware of sent by mail to the station's chief engineer, with a copy to the station manager, should get some attention. Give them your e-mail address. A follow-up phone call would be in order if you don't get some response.


So you think I should try asking D* to move the dish to aim up higher? The original installer wanted to install it on the other side of the roof, but that large tree is in the way (as you can see in the pictures). If you think moving the dish is worth a shot, I will ask D* to do it.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> I get the green pixelation occasionally as well. If fact, it happened tonight when we watched survivor from the local affiliate in HD (Dallas DMA).
> 
> I'd say I notice it about once per week, but it's usually a pretty quick flash (no more than 1 second).
> 
> ...


OK, happened tonight while watching "Earl". Happened twice (once at the 3 minute mark and once at the 9 minute mark). Sometimes it's 1/4 of the screen, sometimes it's 1/2 the screen. Flashes real quick and if I rewind it's still there. Here's a screen shot.


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## jodyguercio (Aug 16, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> That would be *Litzdog911*, but I've posted in that thread too.
> There could be a few reasons for two dishes: wanting the international programing, or maybe one is even dishnetwork :eek2:


And here is proof that I am wrong more times than not...:lol:


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Nuance said:


> So you think I should try asking D* to move the dish to aim up higher? The original installer wanted to install it on the other side of the roof, but that large tree is in the way (as you can see in the pictures). If you think moving the dish is worth a shot, I will ask D* to do it.


Well they can't aim _higher_, but they can aim the same _from further away_. It's a good question whether if the dish were at the other end of the roof that would be enough more horizontal spacing so that the the LOS would clear the highest pair of HV lines. (The very top line is the "static" line - no HV.) You could maybe stand a good distance away and eyeball that, keeping in mind that the LOS to the satellites is ~25 degrees higher than the dish would indicate.

It just would have been better if they had put it elsewhere initially. It doesn't look like those trees would have been a problem, but that would require more pictures for a better "guesstimate."

In any event, I wouldn't worry about it now. If those HV lines were really the source of this problem, I'd expect you'd have problems with _all_ your Ka signals, not just the Ka Hi band, which is used by Spaceway1 for HD locals. There's not much difference between the frequency of the Ka Hi and Ka Lo band, which is used by DirecTV10 to provide the 103(c) national (CONUS) HD signals. But interference to _all_ the Ka's isn't your facts in this case.

As a matter of fact, I think we don't know for sure _which_ 103 satellite carries your HD local signals. If you remove your BBC's and you no longer receive HD locals, _all_ your HD's are coming from DirecTV10, Ka Lo, which would drive the final nail in the coffin against power line interference, since you don't seem to really have that much of a problem except with the HD locals it now appears.

So as *fairport* said, it's probably time to quit "chasing our tails" with respect to your own installation. BTW, *Eric The Red*, I got the info on Milwaukee locals being on 103 from *Newshawk's* list here, "Revised 3/19/08".


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## Eric The Red (Nov 6, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> From what city in Wisconsin does Nuance receive his HD locals? Greenbay (99), Madison (103), or Milwaukee (103)?


K4SMX... your original post lists Madison (my home town) as 103... that's contradictory to what D* has told me. The link you provided doesn't give the satellite # for Madison.

Not saying you're wrong (in fact, I'm pretty positive you know more about D* that their own people), just asking where you got the info.


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## mj1 (Nov 21, 2007)

Nuance said:


> So you think I should try asking D* to move the dish to aim up higher? The original installer wanted to install it on the other side of the roof, but that large tree is in the way (as you can see in the pictures). If you think moving the dish is worth a shot, I will ask D* to do it.


A very simple solution is switch back to CABLE! You said it yourself, you never had a problem with Time Warner, and do you really want to put even more holes in your roof by moving it????

I still have a total of 3 dishes left on my roof compliments of Dish Network! But I couldn't be happier with the my Cable service!!!!


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

mj1 said:


> A very simple solution is switch back to CABLE! You said it yourself, you never had a problem with Time Warner, and do you really want to put even more holes in your roof by moving it????
> 
> I still have a total of 3 dishes left on my roof compliments of Dish Network! But I couldn't be happier with the my Cable service!!!!


I hated Time Warner Cable. Their new 8300 HDC box is more problematic than any issues I've been having with D*. I will never go back. 

K4SMX -
I will remove the BBC's and hook the lines up directly to the box. I'll let you know if I lose local HD channels.

Besides doing that, is there anything else I can do? I have no problem asking them to move the dish, especially since were are renting the home.  I can also take more pictures of the south west side of the house to see if the trees would be an issue. Just let me know.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Nuance said:


> I hated Time Warner Cable. Their new 8300 HDC box is more problematic than any issues I've been having with D*. I will never go back.
> 
> K4SMX -
> I will remove the BBC's and hook the lines up directly to the box. I'll let you know if I lose local HD channels.
> ...


The bottom line is that you need to have your Dish with a clear line of site to get a proper (full-strength) signal.

There could be a number of other issues affecting the singal levels, causing the ongoing pixellation you've reported. I would start by also checking the cable ends at all key points - especially at the Dish itself, your receiver side, and at any mulitswitch. Bad connector end connections are a common source of signal loss.

I used to have all crimp connector ends from my original installation, but now have all compression connectors. I've never had a problem since with any cable issues.

Also, check the cable to the display itself. I had a bad HDMI cable once, which caused similar problems.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The bottom line is that you need to have your Dish with a clear line of site to get a proper (full-strength) signal.
> 
> There could be a number of other issues affecting the singal levels, causing the ongoing pixellation you've reported. I would start by also checking the cable ends at all key points - especially at the Dish itself, your receiver side, and at any mulitswitch. Bad connector end connections are a common source of signal loss.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I actually have checked all of that and even had all the cabling replaced (I actually had everything replaced at least once). The tech also said the connections at the dish are very tight.

I've tried two HDMI cables and two Component cables but the issue remains; total bummer. :nono2:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Nuance said:


> Thanks for the advice. I actually have checked all of that and even had all the cabling replaced (I actually had everything replaced at least once). The tech also said the connections at the dish are very tight.
> 
> I've tried two HDMI cables and two Component cables but the issue remains; total bummer. :nono2:


If your signal levels are all in the 90's or at least high 80's on all the sats....

The only remaining components in the equation are the display itself and the DVr/receiver. I'm out of ideas. Sorry.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Eric The Red said:


> K4SMX... your original post lists Madison (my home town) as 103... that's contradictory to what D* has told me. The link you provided doesn't give the satellite # for Madison.
> 
> Not saying you're wrong (in fact, I'm pretty positive you know more about D* that their own people), just asking where you got the info.


I don't know *Newshawk's* source for this info. Try this link instead, updated 3/19/08. I'm not saying it's 100% correct for Madison or anywhere else. I think it's generally correct, although I have PM'd him in the past because I think the MIA HD info is incorrect, based on what's been posted here by others. It would be hard to keep this up-to-date the way HD locals have been moved around subsequent to DirecTV10 arriving at GSO. You're certainly welcome to pull your BBC's as well. That'll at least tell you whether or not your locals come from DirecTV10 (103, Ka lo). It won't, however, resolve the issue of Spaceway2 (99) vs. Spaceway1 (103). Do you have any 99(s) signals in the 90's?

I'm quite certain that I don't know more about DirecTV than their own people. I just try not to subtract from the sum total of human knowledge with my posts here. I'm sure I'm not 100% successful......


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> I don't know *Newshawk's* source for this info. Try this link instead, updated 3/19/08. I'm not saying it's 100% correct for Madison or anywhere else. I think it's generally correct, although I have PM'd him in the past because I think the MIA HD info is incorrect, based on what's been posted here by others. It would be hard to keep this up-to-date the way HD locals have been moved around subsequent to DirecTV10 arriving at GSO. You're certainly welcome to pull your BBC's as well. That'll at least tell you whether or not your locals come from DirecTV10 (103, Ka lo). It won't, however, resolve the issue of Spaceway2 (99) vs. Spaceway1 (103). Do you have any 99(s) signals in the 90's?
> 
> I'm quite certain that I don't know more about DirecTV than their own people. I just try not to subtract from the sum total of human knowledge with my posts here. I'm sure I'm not 100% successful......


Here is the post in which I posted all my signals. I have 3 on 99(s) in the 90's.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If your signal levels are all in the 90's or at least high 80's on all the sats....
> 
> The only remaining components in the equation are the display itself and the DVr/receiver. I'm out of ideas. Sorry.


Thanks for your help. The display worked great with D* from December until March, so I don't think that's it. It also worked with Time Warner Cable's SA8300HD connected via HDMI. I've contacted Pioneer, as has my case worker, and they don't have any firmware updates because there are no reported HDMI issues.


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## kude (Dec 28, 2007)

Nuance,

Occam's Razor. You have a signal reception issue. There is probably nothing wrong with your equipment and internal wiring or line voltage. You have several copper wires running between your receiving dish and the transmitting satellite. If a signal can't go through tree branches what make you think they can pass through copper without affect? I don't know the wavelength of the signal used, but apparently it is not enough to go around the wires. I could imagine temeperature changes, dew , birds, squirrels and wind play havoc with your signal.

Move your dish to a totally unobstructed receiving position. If this is not possible accept pixelation as a fact of life.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I do know the wavelengths and find it hard to believe the wires are causing the issue.
Trees, branches or leaves have water in them and this is what attenuates the signal. Copper wires have done. While there is a field around the wires, it most likely isn't changing enough to have the variations in reception that are going on.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Trees, branches or leaves have water in them and this is what attenuates the signal.


Agreed - which seems to be the last remaining possibility.....


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Right. No more "tail chasing." This problem has been analyzed to death. :beatdeadhorse:

This is just another troublesome DMA in the DirecTV-provided HD locals panoply.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> Right. No more "tail chasing." This problem has been analyzed to death. :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> This is just another troublesome DMA in the DirecTV-provided HD locals panoply.


hummmm seems like this might have been mentioned way back... [well while this was still over at AVS].
It's always good to get more "eyes" on this and thoughts, but this also needs a "sanity check" too.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agreed - which seems to be the last remaining possibility.....


Hard to think that [trees/water] is the problem with signal levels in the 90s


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Hard to think that [trees/water] is the problem with signal levels in the 90s


And from the pictures.

I'll go out on a limb and say that the power lines are the source. Ok, maybe not a limb but a twig. :grin:

My reasoning, I was recently at a service call where the monopole bolts broke and the dish was flapping in the breeze. Anyway, he had "romex" running right in front of the dish going to a little shed in his back yard. Not anywhere close to code, but I digress. After fixing the monopoles, I had a hard time getting signals that I was used to on my meter. After scratching my head for a few minutes I moved the "romex" to behind the reflector. Bingo, signals were now where I was used to seeing them.

So, anything is possible. After all, this stuff is all black magic anyways. An RF is weird, it plays by its own rules which seem to change without notice. :grin:


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## Eric The Red (Nov 6, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> You're certainly welcome to pull your BBC's as well. That'll at least tell you whether or not your locals come from DirecTV10 (103, Ka lo). It won't, however, resolve the issue of Spaceway2 (99) vs. Spaceway1 (103). Do you have any 99(s) signals in the 90's?


99(s), Transponders 1-6 = 0, 90, 0, 92, 0 88

All the rest are N/A


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertE said:


> And from the pictures.
> 
> I'll go out on a limb and say that the power lines are the source. Ok, maybe not a limb but a twig. :grin:
> 
> ...


A "Romex" in front and a power line across the street, have a very different cross section, just as a bird would "on the dish" verses on the wire.
While RF may play by it's own rules, after chasing it for thirty years, I can usually find it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> You're certainly welcome to pull your BBC's as well. That'll at least tell you whether or not your locals come from DirecTV10 (103, Ka lo). It won't, however, resolve the issue of Spaceway2 (99) vs. Spaceway1 (103). Do you have any 99(s) signals in the 90's?


To add: after the BBC test, if you have a multi-switch, you can pull the 13v for 99 odds, the 18v for evens, and the 13v tone for 103 odds & 18v tone for evens, to see where the locals come from.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Eric The Red said:


> 99(s), Transponders 1-6 = 0, 90, 0, 92, 0 88
> 
> All the rest are N/A


That's sort of inconclusive. I was hoping you might have a bunch of low numbers. If you have a multi-switch, V.O.S.'s ""stack plan disassembly method" is definitive.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> Right. No more "tail chasing." This problem has been analyzed to death. :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> This is just another troublesome DMA in the DirecTV-provided HD locals panoply.


+1... think I said that why back in this thread...:sure: 
Seems IIRC that when a storm comes thru here the blocking is black.. It's green when the source has blips in it..


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## kude (Dec 28, 2007)

I don't know why the experts keep dismissing the obvious. There is an object in the line of sight, I count 5 wires in Nuance's picture.

If moisture is required, moisture does condense on metal in the cool of the evenings, when Nuance noticed pixelation. Copper is metal. However I just contend it's a simple blockage or defelection of signal.

I get green and black pixelation during rain and storm events.

I'll concede a broadcast defect may or may not exist. If this is true, there is nothing to do but complain.

I would move the dish so that not even the wires are in the line of sight. But I'm no expert.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

kude said:


> I don't know why the experts keep dismissing the obvious. There is an object in the line of sight, I count 5 wires in Nuance's picture.


The "obvious" is the fact that the signal levels are high enough to DISMISS any obstructions.
It doesn't take an expert to know if there was a blockage, when the levels would show it. DUH


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Wow...lots of activity since this morning.

So, from what I've gathered I have two options left:

One: get D* to relocate the dish.
Two: Continuously contact the local affiliates and request that the equipment be replaced (by D*??), as is what happened in WA.

Is that correct?

As far as moving the dish, I can have them put it higher up on the incline so it points up at a higher angle, thus shooting over the lines. Otherwise, relocating it to the south west side of the house would probably cause the tree to sway in front of the dish occasionally, which is why the dish was put where it is now. And even if this is done, it seems the dish would still be pointing at the power lines. In lieu of this, would you guys say the best position is at the same point but higher up on the incline? Do you need more pics?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

One word for you: OTA. Get on the list at an on-line vendor for an AM21 OTA receiver add-on for your HR21 when they become available, get an OTA antenna, and be done with this problem.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> One word for you: OTA. Get on the list at an on-line vendor for an AM21 OTA receiver add-on for your HR21 when they become available, get an OTA antenna, and be done with this problem.


I do have an OTA antenna, but I cannot record those stations. When the AM21 comes out, I am all over it. I am still going to have D* relocate the dish, though...I think.

So you think I'd be able to get D* to give me an AM21 for free since I've had to deal with all these issues?


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> I do have an OTA antenna, but I cannot record those stations. When the AM21 comes out, I am all over it. I am still going to have D* relocate the dish, though...I think.


Good idea. With everything being replaced at least once, you've pretty much ruled out any factors that you have control over. So, nothing to lose really by moving the dish. I still say its the power lines causing the interfence in some way. Maybe they are under a heavier load at certain times of the day or something.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The "obvious" is the fact that the signal levels are high enough to DISMISS any obstructions.
> It doesn't take an expert to know if there was a blockage, when the levels would show it. DUH


These quotes seem to fit the situation well:



> ...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.


and



> The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertE said:


> These quotes seem to fit the situation well: and


I still need to see signal loss, like you had with your meter and the romex to become "a believer".


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

AC power line interference from signal blockage is not the issue here, as shown by the signal strengths. We can not, however, completely eliminate RFI "noise" from those power lines, because it wouldn't effect the signal strengths.

For reasons stated earlier having to do with the apparent lack of such interference to the Ka lo signals on 103(c), I think it is probably unlikely that the lines are causing interference to the Ka hi signals on 103(s) and that the problem is most likely the DirecTV HD local signals themselves as re-broadcast, as was the case in Washington.

By all means, if they'll move your dish for free, and there is a suitable LOS location, do it, so we can perhaps put the power line issue aside. You're still going to be close, relatively speaking, but maybe the new location would be shooting over it.

If you can talk DirecTV into sending you an AM21 for free because of this problem, I'd be pleasantly surprised, since it would set a precedent which could wind up being rather expensive for them.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I still need to see signal loss, like you had with your meter and the romex to become "a believer".


I hear ya. I wouldn't have believed that the romex could make as big of a difference as it did considering the size of both the cable & dish and where it was located.

Just saying if everything has been replaced at least once dish to receiver, the only thing left are enviromental factors. Be it power or some sort of random periodic RF interferance.

Just one nasty stubborn gremlin.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Oh, I found the ground for my electric, phones and water, so we can rule those out because everything is good.

Thanks so much for all the help guys! You rock!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Just one nasty stubborn gremlin.


I resemble that. :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> Oh, I found the ground for my electric, phones and water, so we can rule those out because everything is good.
> 
> Thanks so much for all the help guys! You rock!


Do whatever you need to do to "prove" to yourself all has been done on your end.
Record your wife's shows on the SD feed for the time being.
When all is said and done, I think you'll have found this was so hard to fix because you were trying to "fix it" in the wrong place [not your end but the local uplink center].


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## kude (Dec 28, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> The "obvious" is the fact that the signal levels are high enough to DISMISS any obstructions.
> It doesn't take an expert to know if there was a blockage, when the levels would show it. DUH


The DUH is uncalled for. I buy that the the meter is reading 99 at time of installation and its a fair assessment of signal strength. But we are talking picture quality. Why is it inconceivable to you that, nevertheless, the obstructions may have an impact periodically on picture quality. What are the meter readings while the pixelation occurs or at night? The physical characteristics of the various lines could change during the day and into night. When the dewpoint hits there may be enough moisture on the lines to act tree like in interference or the copper material contracts enough to reposition the lines across the areas of the dish with negative affect. Or wind shifts. So on and so on. But it's no sense going on and on guessing about it.

Some people keep saying impossible when anything is possible.

I concede it could be the distribution issue.

Nuance has done just about everything he can to alleviate the problem. It can't hurt moving the dish, and if that doesn't work I am truly sorry that doesn't help you solve your problem.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Its cool guys...I didn't mean for this to start an argument. 

I am going to have D* move the dish and see how that works out. Also, today I am buying that power conditioner/Surge Protector as well as unplugging that APC1500. We'll see what that does.

If none of the above helps, I'll start sending lettings and starting a "petition" type thread concerning Ozaukee County in Wisconsin. 

Thanks for all your help guys! You've certainly helped me narrow a lot of things down.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Nuance said:


> Its cool guys...I didn't mean for this to start an argument.
> 
> I am going to have D* move the dish and see how that works out. Also, today I am buying that power conditioner/Surge Protector as well as unplugging that APC1500. We'll see what that does.
> 
> ...


If the Dish move doesn't cure your woes....perhaps a receiver replacement is in order. In any case, we're rooting for this to work, as it should work just fine in your location. Go Pack.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

kude said:


> The DUH is uncalled for.


While it may have been pushing it, your "I don't know why the experts keep dismissing the obvious." and "But I'm no expert." kind of called for it.
While "anything is possible", this also needs to have some base in reality [or at least physics] since this isn't magic.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If the Dish move doesn't cure your woes....perhaps a *receiver replacement is in order*. In any case, we're rooting for this to work, as it should work just fine in your location. Go Pack.


This was one of the first things done.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> This was one of the first things done.


Some folks have had to do it more than once.

This list of suspects for the cure have diminished to the dish (move and align) or receiver.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Some folks have had to do it more than once.
> 
> This list of suspects for the cure have diminished to the dish (move and align) or receiver.


Actually the receiver has been changed several times.
What really is diminishing is that it has anything to do with the user's system and is coming from the feed on DirecTV's end.
I have seen the exact thing from my local Fox & CBS stations. In my case, it was also on the OTA channel, so it was from the station's equipment and being sent to DirecTV. In this case the OTA feed looks "clean" so it is more likely in the DirecTV uplink [encoder]. Since this is a bit "random" [or channel dependent] moving the dish for "power lines" doesn't seem warranted. If it "could be" the source it would manifest itself on more channels and times.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If the Dish move doesn't cure your woes....perhaps a receiver replacement is in order. In any case, we're rooting for this to work, as it should work just fine in your location. Go Pack.


Thank you sir!


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## dduitsman (Dec 8, 2007)

Nuance - be sure to post you results after you change your power conditioner.

I'm not UPS knowledgeable; but I've seen recommendations that DVR's can benefit from one. Would the APC1500 be something you might try for your DVR? Perhaps an expert could comment on the APC1500.

dd


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Actually the receiver has been changed several times.
> 
> Since this is a bit "random" [or channel dependent] moving the dish for "power lines" doesn't seem warranted. If it "could be" the source it would manifest itself on more channels and times.


There have been folks who have gone through 4-5 replacements before irradicating their symptoms....like I said, a last resort.

The local station reboradcasts certainly can be a source of problems of pixellation and audio dropouts too. One suggeston might be to check with neighbors to see if they have the same problems on the same station(s). If so - call the station and let them know. That corrected things on our local CBS affiliate here, once they heard about the problem from local customers.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

dduitsman said:


> Nuance - be sure to post you results after you change your power conditioner.
> 
> I'm not UPS knowledgeable; but I've seen recommendations that DVR's can benefit from one. Would the APC1500 be something you might try for your DVR? Perhaps an expert could comment on the APC1500.
> 
> dd


I'm no expert on UPS technology, but I have a bunch of APC1500's and 1300's on my DVR's. (Someone posted that the battery in the 1300 is the same as the 1500, but I haven't verified that. The 1300's were recently on sale at BB for $135, so I picked up two more to replace some 350's I had been using.)

They seem very solid to me. On most of them I have only the DVR's on the battery back-up side, with everything else on just the surge protector side, because I'd like my DVR's to be able to run for hours with no AC if necessary without an abnormal shutdown due to a power outage. These two models have a lot of control and LED display features not found on smaller capacity UPC's.

I've had several power failures, and on the TV I have which is also on battery back-up with the HR21-100, the system never missed a beat when the power failed. The spike protection is probably as important as the battery back-up feature for this type of equipment. I haven't researched how the APC's stack up against what's out there in this regard, clamping voltage, rise times, etc., but it's definitely better than just being plugged in to whatever your electric utility might accidentally send your way. I've had a problem once before in that regard, and they are totally uninterested in hearing about how much their spike cost you.

BTW, with comments like this, you're welcome to post way more often....


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## dduitsman (Dec 8, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> I'm no expert on UPS technology, but I have a bunch of APC1500's and 1300's on my DVR's. ... They seem very solid to me...


Thanks for the info Stew. I've had good luck so far with only surge protection on my DVR's - but I'm looking to get some UPS's myself.

*Nuance:* You might try taking that APC1500 you're no longer using - and feeding your DVR(s) with it.

Best of luck,
dd


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

I will give it a go with the UPS for the DVR guys. We'll see what happens.

Otherwise I am going to order a BricK Wall PWR8R15AUD. Speaking of which, would running the lines from the Dish through a power conditioner/surge protector and then to the BBC's mess with the signal strength? I ask because there could be some line noise and power spikes getting through the Coax lines, couldn't there?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

You shouldn't run your coax lines through a UPS or power conditioner unless the coaxial pass-through is rated for satellite frequencies up to 2.5 ghz. I've seen very few of these. It's unlikely that you'd find one with two of these. They are typically not designed to do anything other than surge protection in any event, so check the spec's on what you're considering in these respects.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> I will give it a go with the UPS for the DVR guys. We'll see what happens.
> 
> Otherwise I am going to order a BricK Wall PWR8R15AUD. Speaking of which, would running the lines from the Dish through a power conditioner/surge protector and then to the BBC's mess with the signal strength? I ask because *there could be some line noise and power spikes getting through the Coax lines*, couldn't there?


If these were anything lke cable, phone, or power lines, then yes, but since they only run from the dish to your receiver, they don't. It takes miles of running along the utility poles for the power to be picked up.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

VOS and K4-

Thanks for the quick answers. I wasn't doing this, but I just wanted to be sure since I was thinking about trying it. But now I won't.

Thanks gentlemen!

My wife's show is on at a special time tonight (Eli Stone), so we'll see if the issue occurs with the DVR plugged into the UPS 1500.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

While watching "Eli Stone" tonight the issue happened almost immediately, and it was more prominent today than it ever has been. Today there was also "normal" pixleation where the picture would jumble and flicker for half a second every so often. I don't know if the UPS played role in this, but I do know it has never been removed from the equation yet...until now. It is no longer being used anywhere in my home, so we'll see what happens when my wife watches "Dancing With The Stars" tomorrow.

I really hoped the UPS would do something. Bummer...


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## dduitsman (Dec 8, 2007)

Nuance said:


> I really hoped the UPS would do something. Bummer...


Don't be discouraged, there are still things to try. Some are just easier than others.

dd


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

It's very unlikely the APC1500 had anything to do with last night's ABC HD local reception problem, but if you should decide to put it out on the curb, be sure and post your address and the date you intend to do so, because even with today's gas prices, there will be a DBSTalk.com member who will make the trip to retrieve it for their own use. 

BTW, although I don't have too many HD local issues in the WPB DMA (#38), for at least the last three weeks I've noticed audio problems on _Eli Stone_. It sounds like the entire show is being played on a slightly dusty 33 1/3 LP record. This was confirmed with another local DirecTV subscriber. We've also found the local CBS affiliate broadcasting the SD signal on the HD feed a few times lately, and even the dreaded "white screen."


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

^ Wow, that's not cool (concerning CBS). D* doesn't offer CBS here in HD (which is why I got the OTA antenna), so I fortunately don't have that issue.

My wife's "Dancing With The Stars" show is on tonight. She'll let me know if there are any issues. Wouldn't it be nice if the APC was the issue? Unfortunately I think I am being a little optimistic; have a strong feeling she'll see the pixelation again tonight...


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

While my wife was watching tonight the issue occurred again. I guess that rules out the UPS APC unit and pretty much everything else around and in my household. I even tried a power conditioner (which did nothing). It's got to be the power lines or the local affiliates. 

Tomorrow D* is coming between 4 and 7 to move the Dish to a new location. I won't get my hopes up...


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## Mark Strube (May 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> Thanks for all the responses guys.
> 
> My local channels are coming from the Milwaukee, WI market. I live about 18 miles north of Milwaukee and have no troubles picking of the local HD channels via my OTA antenna. I don't know why I have issues with D*...


I've been having the exact same issues... occasional green pixelization only on the HD locals. I have a brand new install... in Elm Grove, WI, getting the Milwaukee locals. I have a great signal, just had the dish moved from our shed onto our house so it could be more stable. Haven't noticed the issue since the moving of the dish, but that was just tonight.

I'd hate to think I paid to get the dish moved and it won't fix this issue. Wow.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Mark Strube said:


> I've been having the exact same issues... occasional green pixelization only on the HD locals. I have a brand new install... in Elm Grove, WI, getting the Milwaukee locals. I have a great signal, just had the dish moved from our shed onto our house so it could be more stable. Haven't noticed the issue since the moving of the dish, but that was just tonight.
> 
> I'd hate to think I paid to get the dish moved and it won't fix this issue. Wow.


Sorry to hear that you're having the same issue I am. I sincerely hope that your issue has been resolved by moving the dish. Tonight my wife will be watching "Dancing With The Stars" again. The issue _always_ rears its ugly head during that show as well as "Lost" and "Eli Stone." If you watch any of those programs, could you report if the issue occurs this week?

Thanks a lot, Mark.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Could you post a link to your thread over at AVS please?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Could you post a link to your thread over at AVS please?


You mean this one [go back a few pages] http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13612435&posted=1#post13612435


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

A supervisor from D* came out today. Rather than moving the dish he simply explained that this issue is not only localized to me. Just this week 5 other people have reported the same issue in the Milwaukee Metro area and have all had everything replaced with the issue still remaining. The supervisor is a caseworker and came out to collect data that he will report back to his superiors. He said he'd call me by Friday with an update and will continue to call me each week until the problem is resolved.

So, you who said the problem is equipment related on D*s and or the local affiliates' side were right. Good call fellas!

Now I have to play the waiting game until this issue is fixed. :nono2:


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> A supervisor from D* came out today. Rather than moving the dish he simply explained that this issue is not only localized to me. Just this week 5 other people have reported the same issue in the Milwaukee Metro area and have all had everything replaced with the issue still remaining. The supervisor is a caseworker and came out to collect data that he will report back to his superiors. He said he'd call me by Friday with an update and will continue to call me each week until the problem is resolved.
> 
> So, you who said the problem is equipment related on D*s and or the local affiliates' side were right. Good call fellas!
> 
> Now I have to play the waiting game until this issue is fixed. :nono2:


Good to hear. I think. 

Looks like most of the battle has been won. Now that someone actually acknowledges is not an isolated case (yours), they can get to the real root of the issue. However, that does bring up another question. When you were told that they (the stations & D*) didn't see any issues on their end, did they really not see it, or were they just lying? Hopefully its the former and not the latter.

Unfortunately this shines light on D*s (& HSPs) inability to do any hard core troubleshooting. We have no real tools besides our sat meter & voltmeter to diagnose issues. That leads to the shotgun approach to fixing things. Just keep replacing things until the problem (hopefully) goes away. Problem is that leads to a lot of wasted time & money for D*, the tech & most importantly the customer.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

This is all rather puzzling in one sense. You'd think that DirecTV could monitor every single feed in the uplinks at their Network Control Center. New assignment for this week: Watch _Lost_ and _Eli Stone_ on the Milwaukee ABC feed.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> This is all rather puzzling in one sense. You'd think that DirecTV could monitor every single feed in the uplinks at their Network Control Center. New assignment for this week: Watch _Lost_ and _Eli Stone_ on the Milwaukee ABC feed.


Send somebody to the local uplink center and then stay there for a week.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Good to hear. I think.
> 
> Looks like most of the battle has been won. Now that someone actually acknowledges is not an isolated case (yours), they can get to the real root of the issue. However, that does bring up another question. When you were told that they (the stations & D*) didn't see any issues on their end, did they really not see it, or were they just lying? Hopefully its the former and not the latter.


They could have been lying, but I talked to my rep (Jason) again tonight and he swears he talked to the broadcasters and local affiliates and says they said there is no issue. He is going to wait until I hear back from the Supervisor and will call me back Friday.



K4SMX said:


> This is all rather puzzling in one sense. You'd think that DirecTV could monitor every single feed in the uplinks at their Network Control Center. New assignment for this week: Watch _Lost_ and _Eli Stone_ on the Milwaukee ABC feed.


You want me to watch the local OTA feeds? If so, no problemo. I've already done it and noticed no issues, but I'll do it again nonetheless.



veryoldschool said:


> Send somebody to the local uplink center and then stay there for a week.


Sounds good. Who do I have to talk to in order to get that done? :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

"he talked to the broadcasters and local affiliates"
I don't think they were where the problem lies. The source is fine [you see this with OTA], but the local DirecTV uplink center [where they pick up the OTA signals] is where the problem is. I don't think these are manned 24/7, and even if someone is "there" it doesn't mean they are monitoring each channels output to the SAT.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Maybe this is one of those DMA's where all of the DirecTV equipment is at one of the four network stations, and it's one of the _other_ stations than your ABC affiliate.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "he talked to the broadcasters and local affiliates"
> I don't think they were where the problem lies. The source is fine [you see this with OTA], but the local DirecTV uplink center [where they pick up the OTA signals] is where the problem is. I don't think these are manned 24/7, and even if someone is "there" it doesn't mean they are monitoring each channels output to the SAT.


Oh, okay. Gotcha. Well, I will tell Jason and the other supervisor to investigate the uplink center. I will also explain the situation that occurred in WA in hopes that they will take notes.


K4SMX said:


> Maybe this is one of those DMA's where all of the DirecTV equipment is at one of the four network stations, and it's one of the _other_ stations than your ABC affiliate.


You never know. Whatever it is, the more simplistic, the better. From what I gathered from the supervisor that visited me yesterday, D* is very stubborn and will refuse to admit that their equipment, software, etc is at fault until its painfully obvious (such as the situation with the audio issues on FOX when the HR21 first came out and the new HD channels were launched).


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Just to add some information to this thread.
First, the "green pixelation" issue on ABC. I have posted about this on several occasions. It is apparently caused by problems in a couple of pieces of equipment ABC channels are using, or with compatibility between this equipment and DirecTV's equipment. First, ABC uses stream splicers to merge network HD signals with locally-derived content (commercials, newsbreaks etc), and occasionally these splicers create a dropout, or generate a signal that causes a dropout in the DirecTV signal (I am not sure which). This problem will only occur during network HD (it can happen any time, not just at commercials/newsbreaks). Second, there is a known compatibility issue between some ABC encoders and DirecTV's decoders that occasionally results in a glitch and therfore pixelation. Based on a post I read some time ago about the problem in Atlanta, ABC seemed to believe it is an ABC encoder issue rather then a DirecTV decoder issue but I am not certain about this. The problem does not show up OTA because it only happens when the signal from the station is being decoded and then re-encoded to MPEG-4 for transmission over the satellite.
These problems will be seen by everyone watching the program via DirecTV from the local ABC affiliate. (If only nuance is seeing it it can't be the problem I have described). I have occasionally seen this myself here in DFW, and there are many posts about it particularly (as has been posted) in Washington DC where the problem may have been solved.
Green pixelation on other channels may be linked to the same sort of issues. I have had a couple of days where the same problem has shown up on CBS but that's about all.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

I can't see the bottom line efficacy of dumping these type problems on the service structure when the cause lies elsewhere. They're spending all this money launching new satellites, with a large percentage of the capacity slated for HD locals. Meanwhile, whether the re-transmission problems in some DMA's are in the local affiliates' equipment or DirecTV's own equipment or perhaps both, there would _appear_ to be no organized effort to identify, analyze, and correct them. If there is such an effort, it's certainly not communicated to the service structure, who you'd think would be made aware of the specific problem DMA's and channels, so that all involved can quit wasting their time.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Nuance said:


> ...From what I gathered from the supervisor that visited me yesterday,* D* is very stubborn and will refuse to admit that their equipment, software, etc is at fault until its painfully obvious *(such as the situation with the audio issues on FOX when the HR21 first came out and the new HD channels were launched).


There is the understatement of the year.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> I can't see the bottom line efficacy of dumping these type problems on the service structure when the cause lies elsewhere. They're spending all this money launching new satellites, with a large percentage of the capacity slated for HD locals. Meanwhile, whether the re-transmission problems in some DMA's are in the local affiliates' equipment or DirecTV's own equipment or perhaps both, there would _appear_ to be no organized effort to identify, analyze, and correct them. If there is such an effort, it's certainly not communicated to the service structure, who you'd think would be made aware of the specific problem DMA's and channels, so that all involved can quit wasting their time.


I agree with you. The service structure seems painfully unaware of many issues that we know about from this and other forums and apart from the problems it causes DirecTV customers think of all the money it costs DirecTV (and therefore indirectly costs all of us).
I am not sure how much of the problem is lack of communication and how much is that this communication is being ignored by CSRs and others. I saw a post the other week where a CSR worked through the standard checklist, told the caller that no-one else had reported the same problem and then towards the end of the call "just noticed" that a report of the same outage (which had been there for a couple of hours already) was "crawling" across one of his screens - he had obviously completely ignored it. CSRs even seem to be blissfully unaware of major outages like a complete DirecTV uplink center going off the air.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> I can't see the bottom line efficacy of dumping these type problems on the service structure when the cause lies elsewhere. They're spending all this money launching new satellites, with a large percentage of the capacity slated for HD locals. Meanwhile, whether the re-transmission problems in some DMA's are in the local affiliates' equipment or DirecTV's own equipment or perhaps both, there would _appear_ to be no organized effort to identify, analyze, and correct them. If there is such an effort, it's certainly not communicated to the service structure, who you'd think would be made aware of the specific problem DMA's and channels, so that all involved can quit wasting their time.


Agreed. So what are the odds that this gets fixed any time soon?

On a different note but related topic, I asked for compensation due to 2 months of hassles and inconvenience. I was offered 5 dollars off 6 months worth of bills or 3 months of Showtime free. I chose the former. Does that sound like a fair compensation or should I have asked for more?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

You obviously can't objectively believe that $30 would be a reasonable amount for all this aggravation, but on a purely service lost basis, if you figure you're unable to watch your HD locals, but you _can_ watch the national HD's, then HD Service @ $10/mo x ~50% = $5/mo. You can still watch _all_ your channels in SD, right? At least it's something.....


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

I had green pixelization on show Moment of Truth of Fox about a month ago. It was so bad I had to switch to standard channel. I have Fox HD in 3 different locations in the guide coming from both 103/99 and 110 satellites. All of them had the save problem. My understanding though 110 sat sends signal in MPEG2?


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

Are these pixelation issues so bad that it prevents watching the show or are they just quick and intermintant? 

I know before Directv offered it, the CW station in Atlanta, WUPA CW 69, OTA had severe issues with dropouts that would make minutes long segments un watchable. It occasionally still happens via Directv, but not nearly so long or severe. I have hd occasions of less than optimal picture on other stations but it was quick and I didn't really miss anything.


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

The entire 1 hour long show. Commercials were fine though.


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## jacksonm30354 (Mar 29, 2007)

ironwood said:


> The entire 1 hour long show. Commercials were fine though.


I was refering to the OP. But how are you getting FOX from the 99/103/ AND 110 satellites?


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

Nuance said:


> Agreed. So what are the odds that this gets fixed any time soon?
> 
> On a different note but related topic, I asked for compensation due to 2 months of hassles and inconvenience. I was offered 5 dollars off 6 months worth of bills or 3 months of Showtime free. I chose the former. Does that sound like a fair compensation or should I have asked for more?


I have some ideas... (please stand by...) 

gb


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

From the DirecTV website: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=1400013



> *Ellen Filipiak
> Senior Vice President, Customer Service
> We strive to provide you with the best service possible.
> If you have a service issue that needs attention, I encourage you to send us an e-mail* {links to a form, on the D* website}. *(We respond to most e-mails within 24 hours) If we are unable to resolve your service issue by those means, please bring it to my attention at [email protected] *


... and so, to that end, this:

"Wednesday, April 16, 2008

Ms. Ellen Filipiak
Senior VP, Customer Service
[email protected]
Via email

Dear Ms. Filipiak,

CORPORATE IDIOCY IN CUSTOMER SERVICE HAS SUNK TO A NEW LOW!

<ahem> Now that I have your attention  , I would like to bring to YOUR attention a serious problem in the DirectTV Customer Service system and operations (which, presumably, you are in charge of.) To wit, I would like to make you aware of the plight of poor "Nuance", described here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=125609), and here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=931226&page=60). As you will read, he has been through replacement of EVERY component in his DirecTV system (including several receivers), insisted on being escalated several times (over a matter of weeks), only to FINALLY find out that, in fact, there are SEVERAL DirecTV customers in his area who are having the exact same problem! (And therefore the problem clearly lies in equipment far in advance of Nuance's home dish.)

In the bigger picture, I would like to suggest that it would be helpful if you would allocate a certain portion of your workweek to perusing these two Forums, because there are really a HOST of issues where DirecTV has fallen down on issues like faulty software releases and inaccurate diagnoses of problems with users' systems. However, in the interest of maintaining focus, I would like to draw your attention to what went wrong in Nuance's case.

To steal a quote from "Cool Hand Luke": "what we've got here is a failure to communicate!" First, you should have a software system in place for your Support operation that is capable of tracking every complaint, and from whence your Customer Service Managers can do meta-analyses of trends. (I speak now from the credentials of my degree in Information Systems Management (University of San Francisco), as well as my experience as a Lotus Notes software developer.) In this day and age, there is no excuse for NOT having such a system; computers are cheap, and so is the software, on the scale you'd be using it.

If you DO have such a system in place, there are a couple possibilities:
(a) Your front-line people are not using it, either to enter service issues or to query the system for the existence of similar problems. 
(b) Your upper-tier Support people and Customer Service Managers are not using the system, either to create specific entries in a database to highlight emerging local-area or nationwide problems, OR they are not spending time reviewing service orders where there have been multiple calls and the problem is still not resolved.

In both of these cases, the cure for the problem is for Management (starting with you) to make it clear to each and every person in the Support chain that they need to become familiar with the system, and use it in the way it was designed to be used. Provide training on your system to everyone, as needed, and create a path for users to report obstacles they encounter in using the system, so that those obstacles can be addressed either through software modifications, operational procedure changes, etc.

Part of the problem may arise because I know that DirecTV "farms out" (or "outsources", to use a more odiferous term) much of its installation work (e.g. Ironwood Communications); and perhaps you "outsource" much of your front-line Support personnel as well. At the risk of stating the obvious: these people do not have the same investment and "stakeholding" in providing top-quality service to DirecTV customers as would genuine DirecTV employees. It would be unreasonable to expect them to pay the necessary attention to using a Support Management system like the one I have described here; DirecTV is only ONE of their customers, and on the next call, they may very well be dealing with a customer of another company. DirecTV may even be UNWILLING to allow such people access to "sensitive" outage information, since that information would be traveling outside the company. This is why it is "penny wise and pound foolish" (to put it mildly) to outsource such services, especially in a highly-technical service environment such as yours.

In truth, I can only guess as to the actual construction of your internal structures and software systems; but whatever your circumstances, I think I can speak for "Nuance" and many others in the Forums when I say that "what you've got isn't working very well!" I believe the solution to the "information-starvation" situation that waylaid poor Nuance lies in an information-sharing system such as I've described, and a corporate decision to re-think how much of its Service/Support operations it outsources. It can't have been cheap for DirecTV to have replaced all the cabling, antenna and receiver_s_ (plural) for Nuance, especially when multiplied thousands of times across the country.

There have been rumors rampant of DirecTV purchasing Dish Networks, and we can only hope that DirecTV is not adopting a policy of "we're the only player in the Satellite game, so we don't HAVE to care about whether our customers are getting good service or not!" (see also: Lily Tomlin, as "Ernestine the Operator" on Saturday Night Live: "We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company.") At the risk of stating the obvious: economic times are tight, and people are generally reluctant to spend money on products and services. Imagine how much MORE reluctant they will be to spend their money if those products and services are deeply flawed, and corrections appear to be painfully slow in arriving.

I am going to post this letter on the DBSTALK forum (under the URL I gave above). I would invite you to acquire a screen name, and create your own posting to answer and address the issues I have raised here. If that's too edgy for you, you can reply to me personally, and (with your permission) I will post your response on the Forums. I also invite other members of this Forum to direct their own comments to you, through the email address at the opening of this letter.

In closing, I have one final request. Nuance was not offered compensation for his two months of suffering and wasted time. When he asked his "case worker" directly for compensation, he was offered a choice of $5 off each bill for six months, or three months of Showtime at no charge. I would like to humbly suggest that I believe DirecTV could and should do much better than that. I would like to encourage you to see if you can come up with a better offer for him; I'm thinking something like $0 monthly fees until you get his signal fixed up, and continuing on for six months past that point. 

Thank you for your time in reading through my letter; I hope I made you smile at least a couple times, and I/we are looking forward to hearing your response.

Sincerely,
George
(DirecTV customer)"

Emailed about ten minutes ago! Haven't gotten a "failure" message yet. Like I said, I invite others to let Ms. Filipiak know how you feel. It seems that perhaps we finally have an "ear" at DirecTV!

George Be
(part-time rabble-rouser)


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

jacksonm30354 said:


> I was refering to the OP. But how are you getting FOX from the 99/103/ AND 110 satellites?


on the west coast national HD locals (fox) was coming on ch 89 which is 110 degree satellite. channel 11 and 399 come from satellite at 99 or 103 degrees (I am not sure which one). channel 89 was working untill about a month ago when it moved to ch 399.


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

George Be said:


> Dear Ms. Filipiak,
> 
> CORPORATE IDIOCY IN CUSTOMER SERVICE HAS SUNK TO A NEW LOW!
> 
> )


:lol: George. I wanted to warn you but you already sent an email. Using words like Idiocy doesnt really help your communication with corporate representative my friend. Also dont ask for 0 monthly fee thats ridiculous I dont think anybody ever got such a discount. Otherwise letter looks great.


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

ironwood said:


> :lol: George. I wanted to warn you but you already sent an email. Using words like Idiocy doesnt really help your communication with corporate representative my friend. Also dont ask for 0 monthly fee thats ridiculous I dont think anybody ever got such a discount. Otherwise letter looks great.


Sometimes you need to do something to get their attention!  
I can pretty much guarantee that Ms. Filipiak will read the rest of that letter. Plus, I don't think "idiocy" is an overstatement for what happened to Nuance, and as you pointed out, the rest of my letter is pretty even-toned.

And what - you don't think D* can AFFORD to give Nuance a few months at $0 service charge?? Look at their annual profits and think again. How do you put a "price" on what Nuance went through? I think they should throw in a case of beer and a nice massage (or pedicure at least!) :lol:

GB


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> You obviously can't objectively believe that $30 would be a reasonable amount for all this aggravation, but on a purely service lost basis, if you figure you're unable to watch your HD locals, but you _can_ watch the national HD's, then HD Service @ $10/mo x ~50% = $5/mo. You can still watch _all_ your channels in SD, right? At least it's something.....


True, true.



jacksonm30354 said:


> Are these pixelation issues so bad that it prevents watching the show or are they just quick and intermintant?
> 
> I know before Directv offered it, the CW station in Atlanta, WUPA CW 69, OTA had severe issues with dropouts that would make minutes long segments un watchable. It occasionally still happens via Directv, but not nearly so long or severe. I have hd occasions of less than optimal picture on other stations but it was quick and I didn't really miss anything.


They last anywhere from 10 to 60 seconds and occur usually 2-3 times a show.


George Be said:


> From the DirecTV website: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=1400013
> 
> ... and so, to that end, this:
> 
> ...


WOOOOOOOOOOOW! That's was AWESOME! I could never have written a letter to D* that well. THANK YOU SO MUCH GEORGE!!   Truly good stuff my friend!!

I am very happy to have been recommended this forum, because we are now getting somewhere. Thank you all so much!


George Be said:


> .
> 
> And what - you don't think D* can AFFORD to give Nuance a few months at $0 service charge?? Look at their annual profits and think again. How do you put a "price" on what Nuance went through? I think they should throw in a case of beer and a nice massage (or pedicure at least!) :lol:
> 
> GB


:lol:


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

ironwood said:


> The entire 1 hour long show. Commercials were fine though.


Well there's the problem. As long as the important part of the 1 hour long show come through clearly there is no problem. Lest you think I'm wrong about what the stations consider important, The Commercials.

Look at when they run crawls about severe weather or breaking news. You'll only see them where I live before or after commercials, never during the commercial. You will also never see popups advertising other shows or station bugs during a comercial.

Lets not forget the idiocy of telling me I'm watching the show I'm watching. If the show isn't worth my remembering the name, It's because the show is tripe.


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

Nuance said:


> WOOOOOOOOOOOW! That's was AWESOME! I could never have written a letter to D* that well. THANK YOU SO MUCH GEORGE!!   Truly good stuff my friend!!
> 
> I am very reluctant to have been recommended this forum, because we are now getting somewhere. Thank you all so much!
> 
> :lol:


Awwww, shucks... <scuffling feet>

BTW: I would be remiss if I didn't give props to everyone else here who has posted ideas that got integrated into my letter. I hope I didn't give the impression that my letter was all my own original thought. I tried to synthesize what many people have said here before, and I think anyone who reads the threads I referenced will see that. So, thanks to ALL for your contributions! I only hope my letter will have some positive effect on the problem(s).

(As of this posting, no response from Ms. Filipiak...) 

GB


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

Either she doesnt want to respond or there are too many letters


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

ironwood said:


> Either she doesnt want to respond or there are too many letters


If she doesn't respond by next week then I guess she doesn't care. I guess we will see.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

ironwood said:


> Either she doesnt want to respond or there are too many letters


I'll place money on the fact that the "letter" never made it past the spam filter with some of the wording. It's gone to the ether, never to be seen from again.


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## SubSlr08 (Dec 4, 2007)

I had a very brief episode of this last night during the rerun of "Without a Trace" lower half of the screen went all green for about a second - audio was fine. This was from the local CBS affiliate in Tampa. I rewound the buffer and was able to find it again. The audio wasn't affected.
On Wed. night I also had about a quarter of the screen flash in and out with green pixels. That one took longer -- building up and then dying out. . . maybe 8-10 seconds total.
And I have a totally clear shot at the sky, no clouds, no trees, no power lines -- nothing to obstruct the signal. Truly puzzling phenomena.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Yes, although this happens most often with ABC I have seen it a couple of tuimes on CBS also. Never on NBC or Fox.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

SubSlr08 said:


> I had a very brief episode of this last night during the rerun of "Without a Trace" lower half of the screen went all green for about a second - audio was fine. This was from the local CBS affiliate in Tampa......


That had to be a local Tampa problem, because I did not see that on the HD version of the show as re-broadcast by DirecTV from WPEC in WPB.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

As far as I can tell, all the green pixelation issues are only at that particular local affiliate - as you would expect if it is a splicer or encoder issue as I posted earlier.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Oddly enough the issue didn't occur last night while watching "Eli Stone" with my wife. It _always_ happens during that show, but not last night. Interesting...


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

RobertE said:


> I'll place money on the fact that the "letter" never made it past the spam filter with some of the wording. It's gone to the ether, never to be seen from again.


What does that say about your corporation, that "idiocy" gets you filtered? They must received that word as often as you or I receve "[email protected]" or [email protected]"!!

I'm bettin' on "chicken" - BAWK BAWK BAWK!

Or maybe it just takes them a while to come up with properly-spun answers to the issues I've raised.

Believe me, this is not the last they've heard from me!! I'll keep badgering them, via email and posts here, until they cop to SOMEthing!
Other folks chime in too!

GB


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Nuance said:


> Oddly enough the issue didn't occur last night while watching "Eli Stone" with my wife. It _always_ happens during that show, but not last night. Interesting...





K4SMX said:


> That had to be a local Tampa problem, because I did not see that on the HD version of the show as re-broadcast by DirecTV from WPEC in WPB.


I would have to agree that this may very well be a local re-transmission problem. Perhaps you need to try to have some dialog with the engineer(s) at the local stations about your HD signal, as they own part of the process in broadcasting, and may not even be aware of how significant the problem is in your area.

I had a similar situation 18 months ago with my local CBS affiliate, and took the time to speak to and work with the engineer at that station.

While the overall process took about 3 months, they had a genuine interest in correcting their problems (which they claimed they never heard about before). They even checked with me to see if certain changes "fixed" the reception issue.

In any case, they learned that some of their equipment needed "re-tuning and calibration" to properly send their digital signals. Problem solved ever since.

Just a suggestion.


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

I spent over a week with the local ABC engineers back in November - after upgrading for the MPEG4 channels. I was getting very persistant dropouts - only on the MPEG4 channels, even though signal strenghts were strong and solid -- even during the 'glitch' ... The engineers and I were in constant contact - I was documenting dates/times of the glitch and forwarding it to them. They conccluded it was a "Direct TV issue" and were workng with D* to get the hardware/problem fixed. That was 6 months ago ... the problem continues for us on ALL MPEG4 channels. just saying...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> ....That was 6 months ago ... the problem continues for us on ALL MPEG4 channels. just saying...


All local HD channels or all MPEG-4 channels?
These are two completely different issues.


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

I get the 'electronic stutter' on nearly ALL MPEG4 channels.. including CNNHD ... By and far, the problem tends to be more often on the LILs though (maybe because the LILs are what we tend to watch a lot of the time..)... and yes, I understand those are 2 different 'channels'... Thanks...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> I get the 'electronic stutter' on nearly ALL MPEG4 channels.. including CNNHD ... By and far, the problem tends to be more often on the LILs though (maybe because the LILs are what we tend to watch a lot of the time..)... and yes, I understand those are 2 different 'channels'... Thanks...


"I think" you may have some problems with your system then. Locals in your DMA do have problems, but the national channels [CNNHD] don't do that for me. Do I get an occasional drop out? sure, but they are very rare.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> .....I had a similar situation 18 months ago with my local CBS affiliate, and took the time to speak to and work with the engineer at that station.
> 
> While the overall process took about 3 months, they had a genuine interest in correcting their problems (*which they claimed they never heard about before*). They even checked with me to see if *certain changes "fixed" the reception issue.*
> 
> ...


I find this very interesting, and I suspect this is widespread. The only thing I can conclude is that either a) the great majority of people, not being HDTV afficionados, never complain, or b) which I expect to be closer to the truth, they complain to DirecTV CSR's, not thinking to contact the station engineers, and all those complaints go into a DirecTV CS "black hole," since there appears to be currently no CS path for effectively resolving local HD re-broadcast _quality_ issues. There seems to be some response when the station actually goes down ("No Need to Call Us"), but quality is "off the radar," at least for now.

It would be interesting to know exactly what those "certain changes" in re-tuning and calibration were, because I suspect a lot of these local affiliates are using the same or similar equipment, and a _lot_ of them may need to make those same changes. It's encouraging to note that, at least in your case, they had a genuine interest in resolving the problem, which they should in all cases.


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "I think" you may have some problems with your system then. Locals in your DMA do have problems, but the national channels [CNNHD] don't do that for me. Do I get an occasional drop out? sure, but they are very rare.


Sitting here watching/listening to CBS LIL (KPIX SF) .. the "electronic stutter/drop" has occured no fewer than 4 times in the last 1/2 hour...

Signal strength is solid and strong (87% on 103b)


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> Sitting here watching/listening to CBS LIL (KPIX SF) .. the "electronic stutter/drop" has occured no fewer than 4 times in the last 1/2 hour...
> 
> Signal strength is solid and strong (87% on 103b)


Didn't 103b become 103c and your locals come off 103s [old 103a], but again locals in your DMA have been having similar issues as Nuance.


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

I only show 103a & b ... None of the 16 transponders on 103a seems to "work" - all "n/a" or "-". On 103b, I have 16 transponders -- all with strenghts of 76 to 87


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> I only show 103a & b ... None of the 16 transponders on 103a seems to "work" - all "n/a" or "-". On 103b, I have 16 transponders -- all with strenghts of 76 to 87


What model receiver? It doesn't sound like a DVR [HR20/21].
My H21 shows these [right now] for 103a:
#6=100%
#15=70%
#17=83%
#18=100%
#23=63%
#24=87%

I'm just over 100 miles east of you.


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

The one in question is an H20-100 ... a non-DVR ... although the "issue" occurs on our DVR (HR20-700) as well... Those values I posted are form the H20.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> The one in question is an H20-100 ... a non-DVR ... although the "issue" occurs on our DVR (HR20-700) as well... Those values I posted are form the H20.


H20/H21 should give the same readings and from what you posted verses what mine are, you do have a problems with your system.
The HR20 will show the 103s & 103c instead of "a & b".


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

K4SMX said:


> It would be interesting to know exactly what those "certain changes" in re-tuning and calibration were, because I suspect a lot of these local affiliates are using the same or similar equipment, and a _lot_ of them may need to make those same changes. It's encouraging to note that, at least in your case, they had a genuine interest in resolving the problem, which they should in all cases.


Goodness knows I tried to find that out in several conversations, but didn't get them to divulge it.

Part, I know, had to do with their station HD "signal filtering equipment", whatever that might mean.

In any case, what was once one of the eyesore pain-in-the-butt local affiliate HD channels has very-noticably stablized for many months now. I even noticed an imporvement in the OTA with my 2 HR20-700's, as well as the regular HD local/network CBS broadcasts via DirecTV.

The toughest part was getting the local station to admit there was a problem...that took a number of calls to their management and eventuallly engineers. Once they admitted to it, the fix took about 6 weeks of "tuning adjustments".


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

The stupid part of this conversation (IMHO) is that we as the Customers are put in the position to work with local networks to get this fixed! I would think that D* enginneers should be contacting and working with all LIL markets to get the transmission path to the customer "fixed" once and for all. We're paying way too much to have to do their job also ..... IMHO ....


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> What model receiver? It doesn't sound like a DVR [HR20/21].
> My H21 shows these [right now] for 103a:
> #6=100%
> #15=70%
> ...


Hmm... well as I noted, I have an H20 - not H21 ... It's all working fine, other than the audio dropouts/stutter/ pixellation .. well, normal in all other sense of course.

Like I said, I only have 103b & 119 that actually have any transponder values. All of my Signal Strength meters are very very strong -- all in the 97% range.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> Hmm... well as I noted, I have an H20 - not H21 ... It's all working fine, other than the audio dropouts/stutter/ pixellation .. well, normal in all other sense of course.
> 
> Like I said, I only have 103b & 119 that actually have any transponder values. All of my Signal Strength meters are very very strong -- all in the 97% range.


How many times do I need to repeat: you seem to have something wrong in your system?


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

OK - I hear you ...  But what are you seeing that is wrong? Are you saying that I SHOULD have a 103a set of transponders??? You have a H21 .. I have an H20 .. not sure if THAT makes a difference. do YOU? The Direct TV Installers put this in for us and checked out everything before leaving. Mind you, I only have 1 Cable connected to my H20 ... not 2 .....

Anyone else please chime in here.. Do you all have a 103a & b set of Transponders on an H20? (non DVR!!)


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> OK - I hear you ...  But what are you seeing that is wrong? Are you saying that I SHOULD have a 103a set of transponders??? You have a H21 .. I have an H20 .. not sure if THAT makes a difference. do YOU? The Direct TV Installers put this in for us and checked out everything before leaving. Mind you, I only have 1 Cable connected to my H20 ... not 2 .....
> 
> Anyone else please chime in here.. Do you all have a 103a & b set of Transponders on an H20? (non DVR!!)


The real [only] difference between a H21 and a H20 is the OTA tuner.
103a is a spot beam SAT, so only people near you will have the same readings. Since I'm only 100 miles [or so] away, you should be seeing much of the same levels that I am. You should be reading at least 100% or close on your local transponder and also be getting "most" of what I am.
With your HR20, the 103a reading would be the 103s readings.
If you aren't getting anything off the 101, 110, 99b  or 103a  SATs, then there is a very real problem.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Perhaps cody21 has a bad BBC on that H20. Try the 103(a)'s with no BBC attached.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

cody21 said:


> The stupid part of this conversation (IMHO) is that we as the Customers are put in the position to work with local networks to get this fixed! I would think that D* enginneers should be contacting and working with all LIL markets to get the transmission path to the customer "fixed" once and for all. We're paying way too much to have to do their job also ..... IMHO ....


This impacts OTA in some areas too...not just sat. Even the cable signal is impacted...so....its about getting *the station *to do their job.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

cody21 said:


> The stupid part of this conversation (IMHO) is that we as the Customers are put in the position to work with local networks to get this fixed! I would think that D* enginneers should be contacting and working with all LIL markets to get the transmission path to the customer "fixed" once and for all. We're paying way too much to have to do their job also ..... IMHO ....


Agreed.

That "supervisor" that visited me last Tuesday never called me "by Friday" to update me on the situation. What a surprise... :nono2:

I have a feeling D* isn't going to do anything more about this.


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> The real [only] difference between a H21 and a H20 is the OTA tuner.
> 103a is a spot beam SAT, so only people near you will have the same readings. Since I'm only 100 miles [or so] away, you should be seeing much of the same levels that I am. You should be reading at least 100% or close on your local transponder and also be getting "most" of what I am.
> With your HR20, the 103a reading would be the 103s readings.
> If you aren't getting anything off the 101, 110, 99b  or 103a  SATs, then there is a very real problem.




FYI ... OK, I had to try this test once again based on everything you guys are saying (e.g., BBC, etc.) I went to the Signal Strength test and just left 103(a) there for a while... slowly but surely, figures finally did come up...

#6 = 100%
#15 = 97 % 
#16 = 0
#17 = 73%
#18 = 100%
#19-22 = 0
#23 = 95%
#24 = 98%

The (speed) that these numbers come up so slowly compared to 110 and 119 Satellites confused me ... obviously. So I stand corrected. :sure:


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## reber1b (Jun 14, 2007)

Nuance, I had a similar problem -- green pixelation, worse on locals, but also on other channels. I did a menu restart, pulled the plug on the black screen, and let it set several hours so that it was totally cold. I have a Free Agent Pro plugged into the eSATA port, so I unplugged it also. I plugged and unplugged the eSATA cable several times at both ends as well. After several hours I replugged the eSATA cable and repowered everything. That cleared up the problem, and it has not recurred for about 4 weeks now (knock on wood).


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

cody21 said:


> ....The (speed) that these numbers come up so slowly compared to 110 and 119 Satellites confused me ... obviously. So I stand corrected. :sure:


We'll take the blame for not picking up on that one.....it's been a long time since most of us have waited for a 103(a) (or a 99(b)) signal strength panel to populate. Once the software is automatically updated on that receiver, it'll be faster, and the 103(a) will be called 103(s) for "spot beam". And 103(b) will change to 103(c) for "CONUS" (continental US).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> We'll take the blame for not picking up on that one.....it's been a long time since most of us have waited for a 103(a) (or a 99(b)) signal strength panel to populate. Once the software is automatically updated on that receiver, it'll be faster, and the 103(a) will be called 103(s) for "spot beam". And 103(b) will change to 103(c) for "CONUS" (continental US).


The "H" models still have a & b, while the HR models are s & c.


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## KieliM (Feb 13, 2008)

I've had the "Searching for sattelite.." problems, on and off, since December. It would mostly happen at night. I've had numerous visits from DirectTV, and they replaced every single component of the cable plant at least once, without much result. Finally, last weekend I discovered what was causing the problem.

In my case, it was the XBOX360 unit connected to the same circuit. It wasn't even on. But it has a large transformer between the XBOX box and the power outlet, and this transformer was corrupting the quality of the power supply enough to cause the problem. Once I disconnected the XBOX system (including its transformer), everything is O.K. since then.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Are you sure it was the power transformer "corrupting" your AC? What happens if you plug the Xbox P.S. into the usual spot, but _don't_ connect its video/audio cables to your system, Xbox turned on or off?


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

Nuance said:


> Agreed.
> 
> That "supervisor" that visited me last Tuesday never called me "by Friday" to update me on the situation. What a surprise... :nono2:
> 
> I have a feeling D* isn't going to do anything more about this.


Well, as of right now, I haven't received any response from Ellen Filipiak, nor has she posted anything here.

In the process of composing a followup, I did a search in this forum on the word "filipiak". It returned a respectable 18 results, most of which seem to echo the sentiments expressed by me in my letter, and by others in this Forum.

So, I guess my letter was (a) nothing new or novel, and (b) nothing _I_ should expect a response to. I think it probably did go through (spam filters notwithstanding), and I think she is probably swamped with similar complaints. I was naive to think otherwise.

However, Nuance, I think by all means YOU should continue to elevate your matter to their attention. There is no practical reason why it should take three months (as another poster reported) to get one or many problems with uplink equipment fixed, other than that the matter hasn't been placed particularly high on the right person's to-do list.

I pass along this counsel from a poster in one of the "filipiak" threads:


rsteinfe said:


> Very true. But the only ones who can fix the customer service mess are sitting in the corner offices in El Segundo. It's up to us, the customers, to let management know that the "customer experience" is important to us. (Interestingly, NY Times business section ran an article a couple of weeks ago about how the president of Amazon.com has always been obsessed with "customer experience.")
> 
> In order to do this, we need to take some simple steps:
> 
> ...


Nuance, I would send an email directly to Ellen Filipiak with ALL of your customer and contact info in it, and tell her you expect at least an acknowledgement from her within three business days. That seems very generous to me. If you don't get a response from her, I would try email to the CEO, Chase Carey. Although he doesn't publish his email address on the Website, I would give "[email protected]" a try. Next best bet would maybe be a fax to him via their corporate offices [(310) 964-1093] if you have a fax machine, or if not, a SnailMail to Mr. Carey, marked "PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL" (may not help, but...) at:
DirecTV, Inc.
2230 E. Imperial Highway 
El Segundo, CA 90245

From what I've read, individuals who complain to the corporate offices do receive "grease" (for their squeaking wheels.) As far as any acknowledgement of corporate responsibility or intention to change, I think we can assume it's as I said:
*"We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company." *(substitute "Satellite" for "Phone", and you get the idea.)

Nevertheless, we should (I think) all keep airing our service nightmares in public forums like this one. It helps others to understand that they are not an isolated instance or an unusual series of unfortunate mistakes. Maybe it will cost D* a few customers, where people have the option of choosing cable or satellite. Unless and until we get a government in place that understands the necessity of protecting the public from robber-barons like D*, the only place D* will feel it is in the wallet.

GB


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## KieliM (Feb 13, 2008)

K4SMX said:


> Are you sure it was the power transformer "corrupting" your AC? What happens if you plug the Xbox P.S. into the usual spot, but _don't_ connect its video/audio cables to your system, Xbox turned on or off?


Well, that's what made the difference: With XBOX transformer plugged into power outlet (XBOX itself off): pixelation and 771 message. With XBOX transformer unplugged from the outlet: no problem (at least so far).

As I mentioned before, this problems happened only from time to time, mostly during evenings. I even got an UPS, but that did not help. Maybe the current theory is that XBOX transformer is corrupting the power supply a little, and it is interfering with HDR only when there is a further heavier draw on the household power (in my house or in my neighbourhood), like in the evenings.

The other way for me to confirm there is a problem is to switch over to "Signal meters". On most HD transponders, both tuners will be showing good signal strength, but every few seconds would be losing the signal alltogether, for a second or so (i.e. strong reading changing to "Not acquired"). Again, unplugging XBOX seems to eliminate this problem for me.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

It may be more of the Xbox transformer putting out some nasty EM or RF that is causing things to go wonky as opposed to straight electrical interferance.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Where I was going with that was that an earlier poster had reported the same thing, but also revealed that it was the disconnecting the Xbox outputs from his A/V system that cured the problem, indicating that at least in his case it was a grounding problem, not a corruption of the a.c. wave form by the Xbox p.s.

It is also the case, as *RobertE* posted, that certain devices, notably electric light dimmers, nearby PC's, and other devices, can cause RFI to the HR20-700 in particular and probably some other receivers as well. So it's entirely possible that if in your case the p.s. actually is the cause of the problem, there may be some intermittent short or other unusual circuit anomaly which is causing RFI.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

George Be said:


> Well, as of right now, I haven't received any response from Ellen Filipiak, nor has she posted anything here.
> 
> In the process of composing a followup, I did a search in this forum on the word "filipiak". It returned a respectable 18 results, most of which seem to echo the sentiments expressed by me in my letter, and by others in this Forum.
> 
> ...


Great advice George, of which I will take. Thanks for all the help pal!


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

K4SMX said:


> Where I was going with that was that an earlier poster had reported the same thing, but also revealed that it was the disconnecting the Xbox outputs from his A/V system that cured the problem, indicating that at least in his case it was a grounding problem, not a corruption of the a.c. wave form by the Xbox p.s.
> 
> It is also the case, as *RobertE* posted, that certain devices, notably electric light dimmers, nearby PC's, and other devices, can cause RFI to the HR20-700 in particular and probably some other receivers as well. So it's entirely possible that if in your case the p.s. actually is the cause of the problem, there may be some intermittent short or other unusual circuit anomaly which is causing RFI.


Because I like theories... 

Does anybody know whether the XBox actually RUNS even when the "power switch" is turned off? (Much like our beloved HR21-700s, and other DVR boxes...) Because I'm thinking that maybe the processor fires up as soon as power is provided.

Like all computer equipment, XBoxes (XBOXie?) are SUPPOSED to be shielded against emitting RFI interference themselves (FCC IDs and all that good stuff). However, emphasis on "SUPPOSED to be"! Even the best shielding designs can fail due to improper assembly, sometimes failed components, etc. Remember that there IS a microprocessor in there tooling along at a few gigaHertz. Without the right shielding in place, that clock signal could wreak havoc with almost ANY sophisticated electronic equipment.

Unfortunately, your only (reasonable) recourse for determining whether the XBox is spraying out RFI would be to return it to the manufacturer for "testing" (which probably means they would trash it and send you another.) Usually, companies are pretty good about taking care of this kind of thing even "out of warranty", because the FCC doesn't impose a time limit on how long a product is supposed to NOT interfere with the airwaves! Notwithstanding, it would be interesting to see if ANOTHER XBox caused the same problem when it was powered up (but not connected) in the same way. You "gamers" always hang out in packs, don't you?  Do you have a buddy who might be willing to bring their 'Box over for a short test run? You could also eliminate your transformer by swapping it out in a similar fashion. If you discover that either XBox or transformer is at fault, you would at least have a shot at getting Microsoft to replace it (especially if you throw the FCC name around enough!!  )

GB


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## uteotw (Sep 30, 2006)

This started happening to me tonight. Green pixels, characters looking like the Predator in the movie Predator, then it went to blank grey. Right at the start of the first Lost in over a month. Restart did nothing.  Totally maddening. 

Spent a long time on the phone and accomplished nothing. He said it's a "broadcast issue" that he needs to "escalate." I asked if someone would be calling me back and he said it will most likely just be "fixed" but if someone needs to call me they will.

How long has this been going on, and what is really going on here???


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

If this is the first time you've seen this, it probably was a local HD ABC Chicago issue, and, if so, I'm sure there will be other posters who can confirm. On the rare occasion when I have local HD problems in my DMA, I just or switch over to the OTA backup. If you can't do that, I guess you'll just have to drop back to the SD version and grit your teeth. 

If you continue to have this problem on other HD channels, however, then a further investigation is in order. It does seem that there are ABC HD local problems in a lot of DMA's. Keep us posted....


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

I spoke to my D* rep yesterday and he is fully aware of and has seen this thread. This place has helped me a lot, and so have you members. I appreciate it! And hearing that D* has actually seen this thread and is taking steps to fix my issue is very refreshing. 

So now I am just playing the waiting game to see how things go and how long it will take the local affiliates to coordinate with the re-broadcasters to fix the issue. Lets hope its sooner than later.

Have a good night all.


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

uteotw said:


> This started happening to me tonight. Green pixels, characters looking like the Predator in the movie Predator, then it went to blank grey. Right at the start of the first Lost in over a month. Restart did nothing.  Totally maddening.
> 
> Spent a long time on the phone and accomplished nothing. He said it's a "broadcast issue" that he needs to "escalate." I asked if someone would be calling me back and he said it will most likely just be "fixed" but if someone needs to call me they will.
> 
> How long has this been going on, and what is really going on here???


See my post #183 above. In essence: start taking names (and employee numbers) in preparation for kicking a**es later.

Also (like in dealing with children), I think it's helpful for you to set time limits with these people: "if I don't {hear back from you/have the problem corrected} by such-and-such date, I will escalate this issue myself." It may not actually change anything they do, but at least you'll feel better if/when you do rat them out (you gave them fair warning.)

GB
(part-time cynic, and full-time critic of corporate-driven poor customer service)


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Well, it's been months now and still nothing new to report. Although, I did not have the issue with "Lost" last week, so maybe its fixed? Who knows...

Either way, Jason has been calling me each week and updating me. Unfortunately there has been nothing to update me on lately. He said the re-broadcasters say they don't see an issue. This is an odd problem indeed...


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Nuance said:


> .....Either way, Jason has been calling me each week and updating me. Unfortunately there has been nothing to update me on lately. He said the re-broadcasters say they don't see an issue. This is an odd problem indeed...


Thanks for the update! Are these the "re-broadcasters" at the DirecTV uplink facilities or the local station employees? I wonder how many of the local station employees have DirecTV HD subscriptions at home, since you already reported there are other HD sub's in your DMA with your same problems?


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> Thanks for the update! Are these the "re-broadcasters" at the DirecTV uplink facilities or the local station employees? I wonder how many of the local station employees have DirecTV HD subscriptions at home, since you already reported there are other HD sub's in your DMA with your same problems?


I do believe they are the re-broadcasters at the D* uplink facilities.

Hope that helps.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Well I'd ask your buddy Jason for his cellphone number, and tell him the next time you see a blitzed HD local show with numerous errors going on that you'll call him and he can call those network control "rebroadcasters" directly on the spot for a live confirmation. Tell him you won't call him unless you've got a real good example. They need to be checking while you're actually experiencing the problem. Somebody needs to take ownership of this problem.


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## uteotw (Sep 30, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> If this is the first time you've seen this, it probably was a local HD ABC Chicago issue, and, if so, I'm sure there will be other posters who can confirm. On the rare occasion when I have local HD problems in my DMA, I just or switch over to the OTA backup. If you can't do that, I guess you'll just have to drop back to the SD version and grit your teeth.
> 
> If you continue to have this problem on other HD channels, however, then a further investigation is in order. It does seem that there are ABC HD local problems in a lot of DMA's. Keep us posted....


STILL having problems. Last night, for the second week in a row, "Lost" did not record, i.e. the recording was black for the first 29 minutes, then I could see/hear it for about 10 minutes, then the rest was black. Other periodic "tiling"/green picture issues continue sporadically, but Lost not recording once again is pushing me over the edge.

What now? Call AGAIN? They said the next step was to send a tech out. What will he do? All I've done is do a reset (no change), check the signal strengths (all seem fine), & check the cable connections (inside and at the multiswitch).

Anything else I should do now? This needs fixin' FAST... Thanks.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Now what you're describing sounds more like the recent software problems that have been reported with blank/lost recordings.


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## uteotw (Sep 30, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> Now what you're describing sounds more like the recent software problems that have been reported with blank/lost recordings.


So what am I supposed to do? I get pixelation/green squares, frozen pictures, and now two black recordings (both "Lost," both 90% not recorded). Help--?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

I know there are software issues that have effected some receivers and that they are working on a new national release. I had 2 strange issues causing inability to tune certain channels on one of my HR20-700's which I was able to cure by unplugging the receiver overnight. There is also an issue with some receivers having missing channels which can apparently be corrected by repeating the satellite setup in the System Setup > Satellite page.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> Well I'd ask your buddy Jason for his cellphone number, and tell him the next time you see a blitzed HD local show with numerous errors going on that you'll call him and he can call those network control "rebroadcasters" directly on the spot for a live confirmation. Tell him you won't call him unless you've got a real good example. They need to be checking while you're actually experiencing the problem. Somebody needs to take ownership of this problem.


I was told that they monitored the "Prime Time" hours for a week straight and saw no issues. Jason mentioned that he wanted to send a tech back out and move the dish, as that's the only thing that hasn't been done. However, since the issue didn't occur last week during "Lost," we postponed that for now. He'll call me Monday and we'll decide where to go next. This has been very frustrating, to say the least. 


uteotw said:


> So what am I supposed to do? I get pixelation/green squares, frozen pictures, and now two black recordings (both "Lost," both 90% not recorded). Help--?


That's horrible. Sorry to hear that...

Speaking of frozen pictures, my DVR has been doing that lately now. When I try to fast forward sometimes it just gets stuck for 5-10 seconds. Weird... Will this ever end?


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

I received my AM21 and it may solve my issues, because now I am getting the green pxielation and audio stutters on *all *my local stations in HD (Fox, ABC and NBC). :nono2:

This is really getting ridiculous. If Dish Network offered as many HD channels as D*, I'd already have switched.

Now a technician is coming back to move my dish. Unbelievable...

So after months of putting up with this garbage, what would you guys do if you were in my situation? I'd like some feedback as it may give me some leverage. My D* case rep. reads these forums, and he's been very help, but I'm getting fed up with this (No offense to you, Jason). Its too bad D* is so brain dead on this topic because helpful guys like Jason make me want to stay with their service. Still, even he won't be able to keep me as a customer if this doesn't get resolved ASAP.

What do you all think?


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

The Audio issues seem to occur (at least for us) on any or all of the MPEG4 channels -- which are you LILs ... Nothing to do with the unit itself, IMHO. Has to do with the MPEG4 compression and the delivery mechanism from the broadcasters. do a search here on MPEG4 or "stutter".


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

^ Thanks for the info, Cody. I am not too concerned about the stutters. What bothers me is that *ALL* of my local channels now exhibit the green pixelation issue. It used to be NBC all the time, and Fox some times. Now it's ABC, NBC and FOX, and it occurs very often.

I am at my whits end here...


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

email your local brodcasters... The more heat we continue to apply might serve some purpose for them to work with D* engineers to get this fixed once and for all.


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## SubSlr08 (Dec 4, 2007)

Nuance said:


> ^ Thanks for the info, Cody. I am not too concerned about the stutters. What bothers me is that *ALL* of my local channels now exhibit the green pixelation issue. It used to be NBC all the time, and Fox some times. Now it's ABC, NBC and FOX, and it occurs very often.
> 
> I am at my whits end here...


After recording Shark I started watching it (time slip) and about the 35 minute point it started pixelating after flashing a full screen of green. After a few breakups the screen went black with no audio. This went on for nearly 5 minutes before breaking up a few more times and then getting back to the regular picture and audio. It was a clear cloudless night. This was from the CBS affiliate in Tampa on D* locals.
Oh, and after getting 0x22d installed I've got myriads of 771 errors on the 70's channels now. . . swell upgrade, just swell!


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

cody21 said:


> email your local brodcasters... The more heat we continue to apply might serve some purpose for them to work with D* engineers to get this fixed once and for all.


Do you think they'd actually care about this issue, especially since it is on D*'s side? I get zero issues when watching OTA. Even the supervisor who came over yesterday said he's stumped on this one.

I should get free service until this gets fixed. Hmm...I can already get my locals OTA, so why am I still paying $65/month again? :lol:

I wonder when Dish Network will get more HD channels...


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Nuance said:


> ^ Thanks for the info, Cody. I am not too concerned about the stutters. What bothers me is that *ALL* of my local channels now exhibit the green pixelation issue. It used to be NBC all the time, and Fox some times. Now it's ABC, NBC and FOX, and it occurs very often.
> 
> I am at my whits end here...


I didn't read through all 200+ posts, but is it possible you have a bad lnb that is intermittently dropping spot beams?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

This is a long thread, David, but IIRC, the LNB's already been replaced once.  

At least he has an AM21 now, good OTA reception, and, therefore, the ability to record OTA.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

K4SMX said:


> This is a long thread, David, but IIRC, the LNB's already been replaced once.
> 
> At least he has an AM21 now, good OTA reception, and, therefore, the ability to record OTA.


lol, maybe 2 would be the magic #


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (May 12, 2008)

If someone else, me, was having the same issues Nuance speaks of recently.....would you advise him/me to get any new equipment?


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> If someone else, me, was having the same issues Nuance speaks of recently.....would you advise him/me to get any new equipment?


I would consider a second lnb if I had this many issues after ruling out alignment and coax/switches. 
I know the possibility of having to do that sucks, but purpose of having the equipment is to watch stuff.
OP states he is at wits end, and the issue seems to be propagating to more channels for him. this propagation to more locals is what makes me wonder about the lnb dropping spot beams.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (May 12, 2008)

David MacLeod said:


> I would consider a second lnb if I had this many issues after ruling out alignment and coax/switches.
> I know the possibility of having to do that sucks, but purpose of having the equipment is to watch stuff.
> OP states he is at wits end, and the issue seems to be propagating to more channels for him. this propagation to more locals is what makes me wonder about the lnb dropping spot beams.


A second lnb? Do you mean a second 5lnb dish?
Alignment acording to two techs is good....for what that is worth. Brand new lines were run as I relocated my HR21-700 just a couple weeks ago.(kind of hoped the new lines would solve it)
I know I had a rusted LNB about 4 months ago when these problems started to pop up. It was replaced. I told the techs to make sure the new one didn't need replacing when they have come out in the past month or so as that's when these issues started getting worse....and they said it didn't, for what that is worth.

Thanks for the help!


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

I thought you could buy the lnb separately from the dish, may be wrong though. if a rusted lnb started these issues, as it sounds, and you still have issues what else (thats not been replaced after the lnb) would cause these issues? 
I'm not a tech, so this is purely opinion, but I would think its an lnb issue again at this point. seems it would be hard to prover it bad with these issues, flip side is that its also hard to prove it good. 
seems to me, and again this is just an opinion, that you have nowhere else to go.


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## dduitsman (Dec 8, 2007)

E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> If someone else, me, was having the same issues Nuance speaks of recently.....would you advise him/me to get any new equipment?


This is getting to be quite a long thread, but earlier the OP states that every piece of equipment has been replaced at some point.

*Nuance* - I haven't posted because I don't have any new ideas. But be aware that I come back here often; we're still hoping for a good outcome for you.

Regards,
dd


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

I may have missed it but it appears lnb was only replaced once while dish was moved twice and receivers replaced at least twice. thats why I wonder about the lnb in Nuance case.


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## dduitsman (Dec 8, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> I may have missed it but it appears lnb was only replaced once while dish was moved twice and receivers replaced at least twice. thats why I wonder about the lnb in Nuance case.


Dave,

I didn't mean to be critical. I'm sure we all appreciate any ideas.

Regards,
dd


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

dduitsman said:


> Dave,
> 
> I didn't mean to be critical. I'm sure we all appreciate any ideas.
> 
> ...


I didn't take it as being critical, I just had the chance to look at all 200+ posts and noticed that


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> This is a long thread, David, but IIRC, the LNB's already been replaced once.
> 
> At least he has an AM21 now, good OTA reception, and, therefore, the ability to record OTA.


It actually was just replaced again the other day.  So that's two LNB assembly's now. The supervisor who was here said it was actually slightly different than the first one they replaced, but I guess it didn't make a difference...

The guy who came out said everything has been replaced just about twice or more now, so he's stumped. I certainly didn't want to hear that...



dduitsman said:


> This is getting to be quite a long thread, but earlier the OP states that every piece of equipment has been replaced at some point.
> 
> *Nuance* - I haven't posted because I don't have any new ideas. But be aware that I come back here often; we're still hoping for a good outcome for you.
> 
> ...


Thanks much, DD. I appreciate the support.


David MacLeod said:


> I may have missed it but it appears lnb was only replaced once while dish was moved twice and receivers replaced at least twice. thats why I wonder about the lnb in Nuance case.


The dish was never actually moved yet. They were suppose to come out on two different occasions and move it, but both guys opted to not do it because they said it's already in the optimal position. They both also said that the power lines aren't putting out enough juice to effect the signal.

Obviously I am stumped, but to hear the technician's say that they re stumped...very disheartening. :nono2:

Again, thanks for all the help and support folks! I'd be no where without your help.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Nuance, what news of others in your DMA with the same issue? I thought there had already been enough of these reports to eliminate subscriber installation issues as the source of these local HD problems.....


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> The dish was never actually moved yet. They were suppose to come out on two different occasions and move it, but both guys opted to not do it because they said it's already in the optimal position. They both also said that the power lines aren't putting out enough juice to effect the signal.
> 
> Obviously I am stumped, but to hear the technician's say that they re stumped...very disheartening. :nono2:
> 
> Again, thanks for all the help and support folks! I'd be no where without your help.


Thats dishearting. Whats the harm in moving the darn thing? If they truely have replaced everything, then moving it is the last thing that can be done at your locale.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

RobertE said:


> Thats dishearting. Whats the harm in moving the darn thing? If they truely have replaced everything, then moving it is the last thing that can be done at your locale.


makes sense to me, I was thinking lnb due to mistakenly thinking it had been moved.


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## sjmurdock (Aug 19, 2006)

SubSlr08 said:


> After recording Shark I started watching it (time slip) and about the 35 minute point it started pixelating after flashing a full screen of green.


I just got a full screen of green as well for about 2-3 seconds while watching the Tigers game on FSN Detroit. I've also over the last few weeks had times where the entire screen will have a green tint to it, i.e., when I hit the info button on the remote the DirecTv banner is a greenish-blue. Oddly enough if I switch to my Tivo and then bounce back to the HR20, the color fixes itself. If I don't do this little trick though, the green tint has stayed for as long as 20-30 minutes.

I've switched component cables and had the same problem. At first I was thinking it was my 6 1/2 year old Pioneer 643HD5 CRT going bad but given the Tivo never has the problem and reading some of this thread, I'm starting to suspect it's something with my HR20. Next time it happens I'm going to remember to switch to my OTA channels and see if the green tint is on those channels as well.


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## pi2000 (Oct 2, 2006)

Nuance, I have the EXACT same problem. I'm in south Orange County, CA. Local HD channels break-up, green pixels, not always green, but audio stutter as well. It's been a problem for about 6 months now, but I haven't complained since it has happened sparsely.

It used to happen more often on weekends during the day. However, it's gotten much much worse in the last 2 weeks or so, happening all hours of the day. So I plan on calling DTV. I hope you find a solution, I'll let you know what they find when they come out here, but judging by your experience w/ this one, I'm not too optimistic.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> Nuance, what news of others in your DMA with the same issue? I thought there had already been enough of these reports to eliminate subscriber installation issues as the source of these local HD problems.....


I had a supervisor come out a month or so ago and tell me that there have been other reports of the same issue. Well, my D* rep told me the other day that this wasn't true. So either I am being lied to or D* just doesn't know what they are doing. 


RobertE said:


> Thats dishearting. Whats the harm in moving the darn thing? If they truely have replaced everything, then moving it is the last thing that can be done at your locale.


Apparently it can't go anywhere else. See my pictures on the second or third page. There is a tree off to the right, so it can't go there. I was told it's in the best position.

To add to this crap, I am watching the Brewer game on FSN north in HD and the audio stutters every 2 seconds, and the picture locks while it's stuttering. Gosh I love DirecTv...

pi2000 - I hope that your issue gets resolved before mine, but don't count on it.

So what are the chances D* has the balls to try to charge me a cancellation fee if I do in fact cancel their service? E* just added a bunch of HD channels, so I am pondering making the switch. What do you guys think?


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

This "stuttering/break up" issue - as others have noted - has been going on ever since the implementation of their MPEG4 channels. We never had this issue UNTIL they took away our HR10-250 and swapped in the HR20 & H20 in order for us to receive the MPEG4 channels. We have very solid and high signals that NEVER drop. When we approached D* with this problem (within 3 weeks of the upgrade), they tried to blame it on the RECEIVER ... their default response it seems. Anyway, it was NOT the receiver. It was with the MPEG4 compression "technology" and all the points across the broadcast "route" required to get the signal to us. I complained to our local affiliate and worked for about a week with the Engineering staff (KCBS/SF) and they concluded it to be something on the D* side of things, but didn't elaborate. They said D* was aware of the problem and the D* Engineers were looking into the problem ... that was 7 months ago ... Most of my LIL MPEG4's, as well as CNNHD, get this "stutter" & occasional "pixelization" daily still ... 7 months later... It is NOT the receivers causing this problem, IMHO .. it is the MPEG4 technology, IMHO.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Nuance said:


> So either I am being lied to or D* just doesn't know what they are doing.


Ha, I think the answer to that is YES and YES.



Nuance said:


> So what are the chances D* has the balls to try to charge me a cancellation fee if I do in fact cancel their service? E* just added a bunch of HD channels, so I am pondering making the switch. What do you guys think?


Sounds like you have a lot of case data on your side, I bet you could get out no cost. Sounds like you have a good case of D* lack of ability to perform. I would love to hear some feedback from someone that switched to E*. I am concerned about their HD quality not that D* quality is any good either. I wish FIOS was in the bay area, my HD options are basically 4 version of HD Lite, D*, E*, recent Comcast compression issues and overcomressed ATT.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

^ I too wish Fios was available here. They have superior PQ and better service, at least from what I've read. Of course, they don't have as many HD channels, which is why I switched to D* (gotta get the best out of my Pioneer Kuro ).

Well, I am just playing the waiting game again. I've been told "I'm out of ideas" by multiple people, so I am not getting my hopes up. I think I should get a mad discount, though. $5 off my bill each month for 6 months does not make up for these issues.


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## kokishin (Sep 30, 2006)

Hey Nuance,

I read your stuff on AVS Forum and Salk Signature Sound on the AudioCircle Forum. You are a great contributor!

The situation you continue to go through with Directv really sucks. Since you have replaced everything at least once (or twice), have you tried another TV? I know it's a longshot and other posters may chime in that it has nothing to do with your issue and they may be right. I just don't know what else to suggest.

Good luck!



Nuance said:


> ^ I too wish Fios was available here. They have superior PQ and better service, at least from what I've read. Of course, they don't have as many HD channels, which is why I switched to D* (gotta get the best out of my Pioneer Kuro ).
> 
> Well, I am just playing the waiting game again. I've been told "I'm out of ideas" by multiple people, so I am not getting my hopes up. I think I should get a mad discount, though. $5 off my bill each month for 6 months does not make up for these issues.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

if you have one to try I would say go for it. what could trying it hurt? just an opinion, I have many of them


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

kokishin said:


> Hey Nuance,
> 
> I read your stuff on AVS Forum and Salk Signature Sound on the AudioCircle Forum. You are a great contributor!
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words. 

I have not tried another TV - can't afford another one. But I will say that I never had an issue when I had Time Warner with this TV (from last Summer to December of 07). I didn't even have a problem with D* until around March (I think...it's been so long now, or so it seems...). Everything was perfect, and then one day - WHAM! Weird, huh?

I will say that I did try different HDMI cables, tried moving to component and I tried different HDMI and component ports on the TV. I've got a pal with the exact same TV, the same TV firmware and D*; he has no issues. I am at a loss. I'm an IT guy and am honestly stumped myself. Everything has been ruled out except moving the dish, which isn't really an option as you probably already know. D* swears that the power lines don't play a role in this, but I dunno... What else could it be? 

P.S. My OTA antenna used in combination with the AM21 and HR21 works flawlessly, but I am paying for D*'s services, so I shouldn't have to rely only on my OTA antenna to get HD locals, ya know? With that said, it can't be the TV in my opinion. Heck, wouldn't that rule out the power lines as well since the OTA antenna doesn't seem to have an issue receiving the signal through them? If you look at the pics I took, that weird looking thing mounted below the dish on the side of my house is the OTA antenna. It's at a lower trajectory than the dish, but I assume that if the power lines were causing an issue, the antenna would also be effected, no?

I just feel like I'm getting robbed and that its not fair.  If I pay for D*'s service I'd expect to get that full service. It works the same way with any service you pay for. What if our electricity just decided to work 5 times a week instead of 7, but it was random and you couldn't choose when it stopped or prepare for it? That would be completely unacceptable, right? Well, I know it's an extreme example, but you get my point. 

Anyway, thanks to all who've helped me thus far. I hope to come to a resolution, but my faith in D* is diminishing quickly.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

yeah, I think those lines are causing more of an issue then installers realize. OTA is less directional (usually) than the dish. 
are you near a transformer? we had one next to my house causing a lot of interference. didn't last for long, one night a HUGE bang and then no power for 2 days..
will your power company come out for free and check the area for interference? I don't remember seeing anything in the previous 231 posts about that.
they do out here if we suspect something is hinky and we can show we've exhausted most other possibilities.
again, just another of the many ideas thrown at you.


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## kokishin (Sep 30, 2006)

Is your TV firmware upgradeable? (Mine is). If you think it's worth your time, you might compare your TV's firmware revision against your buddy's TV. I did read your post below so I know it's a longshot.



Nuance said:


> Thank you for the kind words.
> 
> I have not tried another TV - can't afford another one. But I will say that I never had an issue when I had Time Warner with this TV (from last Summer to December of 07). I didn't even have a problem with D* until around March (I think...it's been so long now, or so it seems...). Everything was perfect, and then one day - WHAM! Weird, huh?
> 
> ...


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> yeah, I think those lines are causing more of an issue then installers realize. OTA is less directional (usually) than the dish.
> are you near a transformer? we had one next to my house causing a lot of interference. didn't last for long, one night a HUGE bang and then no power for 2 days..
> will your power company come out for free and check the area for interference? I don't remember seeing anything in the previous 231 posts about that.
> they do out here if we suspect something is hinky and we can show we've exhausted most other possibilities.
> again, just another of the many ideas thrown at you.


Good question... I could find out.

As for the transformer, I don't know. See the pic below; do you see one in the area? Anyone think the dish is too close to the lines? If so, where on earth could I put it to avoid the line interference but not have a blocked view of the sky? Higher on the roof, and if so, would it be pointing at the wrong angle toward the sky (as in, to much of an upward angle)?











kokishin said:


> Is your TV firmware upgradeable? (Mine is). If you think it's worth your time, you might compare your TV's firmware revision against your buddy's TV. I did read your post below so I know it's a longshot.


Yes it is, but Pioneer has to be called out to do it. And right now, the only firmware upgrade is to fix a bug that happens when using the OTA antenna, of which I'm having no issues with. I honestly don't think it's the TV.

Thanks for the idea guys!

The rest of the pics are *here*.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

well, again just throwing this out. after everything else has been done the only thing not done is the one thing people say can't be done.
wonder if it could be placed in ground right in front of where it is, where the ota unit is. that would shoot under those lines, looks like it could clear the house across the street.
it would be tight.
I see 10 or 11 lines there, wondering if they're moving at all. like waving open hand in front of your eyes, can still see but its distorted.
I don't think a d* installer would do this as a service call (if I understand how they work) due to the chance of no los and then chargebacks. would probably have to get a local to do it with the understanding it might not work.


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## pi2000 (Oct 2, 2006)

Nuance, all my utilities here in Laguna Hills are underground, and I have the exact same problem, so it's definitely NOT the power lines.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for the info guys. pi2000 - good to know buddy. Well, I am at a total loss then. I am just about ready to throw in the towel and go back to Time Warner.  :nono2:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> Thanks for the info guys. pi2000 - good to know buddy. Well, I am at a total loss then. I am just about ready to throw in the towel and go back to Time Warner.  :nono2:


Sorry to hear that. 
Seems that it still is in your uplink center. Keep hammering on DirecTV.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

cody21 said:


> This "stuttering/break up" issue - as others have noted - has been going on ever since the implementation of their MPEG4 channels. We never had this issue UNTIL they took away our HR10-250 and swapped in the HR20 & H20 in order for us to receive the MPEG4 channels. We have very solid and high signals that NEVER drop. When we approached D* with this problem (within 3 weeks of the upgrade), they tried to blame it on the RECEIVER ... their default response it seems. Anyway, it was NOT the receiver. It was with the MPEG4 compression "technology" and all the points across the broadcast "route" required to get the signal to us. I complained to our local affiliate and worked for about a week with the Engineering staff (KCBS/SF) and they concluded it to be something on the D* side of things, but didn't elaborate. They said D* was aware of the problem and the D* Engineers were looking into the problem ... that was 7 months ago ... Most of my LIL MPEG4's, as well as CNNHD, get this "stutter" & occasional "pixelization" daily still ... 7 months later... It is NOT the receivers causing this problem, IMHO .. it is the MPEG4 technology, IMHO.


Cody, forgive me if I am heading in a different direction here (this is a very long, now very old thread) or in a direction already heavily traveled, but I think there is really nothing wrong with the MPEG-4 technology. If there were, then we would likely all have issues with those channels. I, for one, have never seen a pixellation, stutter, or anything even close to that since my install in December. I also think there is very little chance that they would sink billions into a flawed technology.

I think there is an achilles heel, however, and that is in the way installers are tuning in the new dishes. The new channels are all on Ka transponders. Installers never tune for Ka (in fact most installers do not have meters that will even see those sats); theoretically, if you align for 110 and 119 *properly*, the Ka sats will also line up automatically. That is the basic instruction for alignment (align for Ku 110 and 119).

Unfortunately, installers have been conditioned, most of them, to tweak for a quick and dirty alignment on 110 and 119, and to get out and on to the next customer as quickly as possible. The problem is that if you do only that, you may have adequate numbers on the Ku sats (and correspondingly solid pix) but you can still have pixellation on the Ka sats. The focal points for Ka are about 1/3 to 1/4 the size of those for Ku. If you are not aligned for dead-on center for Ku, Ka will suffer, as being off just a little bit means signal levels fall off sharply.

There is a new (to them) technique called "dithering", which ensures that the dish alignment for Ku is maximized, which also maximizes Ka, but if that extra 2 minutes of alignment isn't done, you can still have issues with ONLY the new MPEG-4 channels. It is outlined very clearly in the installation manual.

The other issue is increased wind-loading on the newer dish. There should be struts installed to keep the heavier dish from "stopsigning" in the wind. Struts are not included with the dish, they are extra, and sometimes unscrupulous installers will just not even mention them, let alone install them.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

TomCat - do you think what you speak of is my issue? Is it possible that the installers never took the time to use the "dithering" technique?


Nuance said:


> ...Higher on the roof, and if so, would it be pointing at the wrong angle toward the sky (as in, to much of an upward angle)?


Anyone have any insight on this? If D* comes out and moves the dish a little higher onto the roof crest, would the angle be too high?


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> TomCat - do you think what you speak of is my issue? Is it possible that the installers never took the time to use the "dithering" technique?
> 
> Anyone have any insight on this? If D* comes out and moves the dish a little higher onto the roof crest, would the angle be too high?


Moving it higher on the roof is not going to make a bit of difference in real world elevation settings. They will have to fine tune the dish anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

If you and/or DirecTv isn't willing to move the dish to rule out interference what else is there?

You've stated everything has been replaced at least once.

So that leaves an actual reception issue (interference of unknown origin)
or
a transmission issue at the station/DirecTvs end.

If its the latter, then everyone in the DMA should be having the same issue, no?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Moving it higher on the roof is not going to make a bit of difference in real world elevation settings. They will have to fine tune the dish anyway, so it really doesn't matter.
> 
> If you and/or DirecTv isn't willing to move the dish to rule out interference what else is there?
> 
> ...


And back in the bowels of this thread, there were five other customers with the exact same issue in the area.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

not trying to belabor the point but if it was a transmission issue wouldn't you expect there be more complaints?
I don't visit other forums so I don't know if its cropped up before on other forums. the only statistics I have to go on are from this forum.


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

TomCat said:


> ... snip ... but I think there is really nothing wrong with the MPEG-4 technology. If there were, then we would likely all have issues with those channels. I, for one, have never seen a pixellation, stutter, or anything even close to that since my install in December. I also think there is very little chance that they would sink billions into a flawed technology.
> 
> I think there is an achilles heel, however, and that is in the way installers are tuning in the new dishes. The new channels are all on Ka transponders. Installers never tune for Ka (in fact most installers do not have meters that will even see those sats); theoretically, if you align for 110 and 119 *properly*, the Ka sats will also line up automatically. That is the basic instruction for alignment (align for Ku 110 and 119).
> 
> ...


TomCat -- I can only base this on the fact that we NEVER had this audio "stutter" problem with the HR10-250 technology (pre-MPEG4). The issue clearly started with the H20 and HR20 receivers we had installed in Nov. 2007. In fact, it began almost immediately. Our signal strengths are very solid - and high. Never varying much at all. The Installer in fact put "struts" on our new dish when he installed it. He really did not seem in any rush to "fine tune" it - he was on site like 4 hours and used a special "meter" for the alignment process.

So I don't know -- whatever the issue is only occurs on MPEG4 channels (LILs by far the worst). We get this electronic "stutter" about 3-5 times per hour. Clear day, no wind ... just this short 'stutter'.

So, go figure... but I stand by my ascertian that this is all about the implementation of MPEG4 technology. YMMV


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> So, go figure... but I stand by my ascertian that this is all about the implementation of MPEG4 technology. YMMV


Indirectly, yes.
It isn't the MPEG-4, but the encoding from the broadcast stations. NBC here is really having problems [just like you've posted], but it is "on their end" as when I check my OTA signal, it's there too.
If it was truly inherent in MPEG-4, then you'd see it on every MPEG-4 channel [all of the new HD channels].


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

veryoldschool --- I know I know ... You've told me/us this before... I can only tell you my personal experience. I ONLY get this issue on any number of MPEG4 channels. My LILs, and CNNHD are the worst and the most-often. I do NOT get this on the other HD "premium" channels (SHOWHD, MAXHD, HBOHD, etc.) -- because as I undertsand it, the are on a different satellite. And I *NEVER* had this problem until being forced to the new HR20/H20 receivers to get the MPEG4 channels. YMMV ...

edit: When this "stutter" is going on, I don't see this problem at all on OTA or SD channels.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

cody21 said:


> veryoldschool --- I know I know ... You've told me/us this before... I can only tell you my personal experience. I ONLY get this issue on any number of MPEG4 channels. My LILs, and CNNHD are the worst and the most-often. I do NOT get this on the other HD "premium" channels (SHOWHD, MAXHD, HBOHD, etc.) -- because as I undertsand it, the are on a different satellite. And I *NEVER* had this problem until being forced to the new HR20/H20 receivers to get the MPEG4 channels. YMMV ...
> 
> edit: When this "stutter" is going on, I don't see this problem at all on OTA or SD channels.


Which would point to a bad receiver [if anything but local HD channels], or everybody here would be experiencing it.


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## cody21 (Sep 26, 2007)

never mind.... we're both right.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> And back in the bowels of this thread, there were five other customers with the exact same issue in the area.


Only six out of the whole DMA? If it was a transmission issue it would be all, not just six (that we know of).

If people want to rule out the power lines, fine, I got no problem with that. BUT tell me what the problem is, rather than saying what it isn't.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Only six out of the whole DMA? If it was a transmission issue it would be all, not just six (that we know of).
> 
> If people want to rule out the power lines, fine, I got no problem with that. BUT tell me what the problem is, rather than saying what it isn't.


six complained about AI or DwS, or what ever "the shows" off ABC are.
The actual number with "the problem" could be much more.


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## spidey (Sep 1, 2006)

Nuance said:


> ^ I too wish Fios was available here. They have superior PQ and better service, at least from what I've read. Of course, they don't have as many HD channels, which is why I switched to D* (gotta get the best out of my Pioneer Kuro ).
> 
> Well, I am just playing the waiting game again. I've been told "I'm out of ideas" by multiple people, so I am not getting my hopes up. I think I should get a mad discount, though. $5 off my bill each month for 6 months does not make up for these issues.


I havent read the whole thread but have you tried turning Native resolution OFF. I had seen major green screens much worse than your pics and turning native off did the trick. The issue only showed up on my sammy DLP with HDMI none of my other receiver/TV pairs.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> And back in the bowels of this thread, there were five other customers with the exact same issue in the area.


I was told in person by a D* "supervisor" that at least 5 others in the area were having the same issue. Well, about a week ago my case worker told me that this turned out to be false. So yeah...I don't know what to think anymore. None of their stories corroborate.



spidey said:


> I havent read the whole thread but have you tried turning Native resolution OFF. I had seen major green screens much worse than your pics and turning native off did the trick. The issue only showed up on my sammy DLP with HDMI none of my other receiver/TV pairs.


Turning off "Native" would make it necessary to force a resolution and have the HR21 do the scaling. The processor in my TV is nicer than the one in the box, so I don't want to box doing the scaling as the picture quality could be worse. However, no, I have not left it permanently off. Why would leaving it on cause green pxelation, though?


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

trying native off for a bit might help troubleshoot. if it did work we might be able to then say its an hdmi interface issue. just a thought, no proof to back it up on my end.

edit-component had been tried earlier so this is not valid.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

David MacLeod said:


> trying native off for a bit might help troubleshoot. if it did work we might be able to then say its an hdmi interface issue. just a thought, no proof to back it up on my end.


While "anything" is worth a try, "I think" the HDMI can be ruled out as component was used with the same out come.

*Nuance*
While "I doubt" the power lines are your issue, we are running out of "things". When I looked at your picture, the high voltage lines [at the top] do look to be in the line of sight, and are closer than "I'd thought". 
What are they maybe 40'?
"I'd think" if power lines that close were an issue, it would be a "known" problem, but...
I also can't see how "if they were", it would effect just certain programs/channels.
I also "don't have an answer" either [other than it being in the uplink from your local ABC], so: is it worth moving the dish to just rule that too out of the equation?


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

I missed the component try, yes that nullifies my thought on it.
I'll edit my post.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

David MacLeod said:


> I missed the component try, yes that nullifies my thought on it.
> I'll edit my post.


You "only missed it" because it was from another forum [AVS]. This problem has been on going a long time.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> While "anything" is worth a try, "I think" the HDMI can be ruled out as component was used with the same out come.
> 
> *Nuance*
> While "I doubt" the power lines are your issue, we are running out of "things". When I looked at your picture, the high voltage lines [at the top] do look to be in the line of sight, and are closer than "I'd thought".
> ...


I personally don't think it is worth moving the dish, but I wanted to get your opinions. After all, you guys are the experts, not me.

By the way, the issue has seemed to cease on ABC, but now happens on Fox and NBC a lot. What's up with that?


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

just clarify, at this point moving is only thing not done correct?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> I personally don't think it is worth moving the dish, but I wanted to get your opinions. After all, you guys are the experts, not me.
> 
> By the way, the issue has seemed to cease on ABC, but now happens on Fox and NBC a lot. What's up with that?


"work at the uplink site".
I'm going to go back out on that limb and say this is what I posted on my first post.
Your problem is with the uplink in your area for your local HD channels.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Neither of us has ever really been off that limb, and it's pretty darned stout.....


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

K4SMX said:


> Neither of us has ever really been off that limb, and it's pretty darned stout.....


"Must be" to be holding both of us. :lol:


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> just clarify, at this point moving is only thing not done correct?


That is correct.


veryoldschool said:


> "work at the uplink site".
> I'm going to go back out on that limb and say this is what I posted on my first post.
> Your problem is with the uplink in your area for your local HD channels.


Okay...that's kind of where I am too - that limb is getting crowded. :lol:

Well, I guess my next question to you experts is, how can I realistically get the uplink stations to become aware, admit there is an issue and then fix it? I'll do whatever I have to, but honestly, shouldn't DirecTV being doing the leg work rather than me? Nonetheless, please advise me as to how to approach this. I just want this fixed.

Thank you!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Same old, same old: *****, nag, complain, over and over, to DirecTV and the TV stations.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

^ LOL. OKay, I guess I can do that. So what do I tell my rep when he calls me?


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Nuance said:


> ^ LOL. OKay, I guess I can do that. So what do I tell my rep when he calls me?


lol, tell him the lawyer you retained has some suggestions 
no, don't do that


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> ^ LOL. OKay, I guess I can do that. So what do I tell my rep when he calls me?


"please fix it". 

"Realistically" that with all of the help and troubleshooting steps you've taken, the problem lies in the DirecTV uplink center and would they have that addressed and/or give you an idea when you can expect it to be resolved.
[Again] contacting your local TV station and their engineer would be worth doing as [if they are interested] they can use their contact channels to get it addressed [much sooner].


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Well, he called me today and said he's sending the issue to another tech support division or something. Who knows...

Edit: I should note that my case worker (Jason) has been a pleasure to work with. I feel terrible for him because he's working so hard to find a resolution, but it seems his superiors and other branch members don't care about my issue. The uplink station claims nothing is wrong, a "supervisor" tells me to my face that there are others in my area having the same issue, which isn't true, the technicians tell me they are stumped, etc. If everyone worked as hard as Jason, this would have been fixed long ago.


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

Re this posting: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1556009#post1556009

UPDATE: just came through in email! I forwarded it to Chase Carey, CEO ([email protected]):
*"Dear Mr. Carey,

Just thought you ought to know about this. There's nothing that quite says "SCREW YOU, CUSTOMER" like an executive that doesn't even look at her email for SIX WEEKS, and then deletes it without even READING it! Very classy.
X-P
George 
Directv Customer"*

-----Original Message-----
From: Ellen Filipiak [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:44 AM
To: GB
Subject: Not read: A Service matter needing your attention...

Your message

To: Ellen Filipiak
Subject: A Service matter needing your attention...
Sent: *Wed, 16 Apr 2008 *22:33:36 -0700

was *deleted without being read *on *Sun, 1 Jun 2008 *00:43:40 -0700

**********


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

With a subject line of:



> CORPORATE IDIOCY IN CUSTOMER SERVICE HAS SUNK TO A NEW LOW!


I would have deleted it without reading it as well. Also keep in mind, that a lot of your email clients let you read emails without sending the read receipt. So, that really proves nothing.

I won't waste my time with a letter or email that is nothing but venom. If you want results, step back, take a few deep breaths and write one without all the insults and hate. You know, that whole "more flys with honey" thing that any good parent would have taught their kid years ago. :bang


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

Couple things, Robert:

(1) The Subject line of my letter was not "Corporate Idiocy...", but rather "A Service matter needing your attention..." That should have been benign enough to rate a "read".

(2) GOOD executives (especially those charged with responsibility for Customer Service) don't have the LUXURY of simply discarding communications that sound pissed-off; that's part and parcel of their line of work. Clearly, you would never make a good Customer Service person (not that there's anything wrong with that - we all have our niches. Probably you'd never WANT to be in Customer Service.) 

(3) My parents taught me all about flies and honey, thank you. In the first place, I'd like to give D* and Ms. Filipiak credit for being something more than an annoying insect that feeds on poop (although that remains to be seen, I guess.) Secondly, the only reason I can think of that one would even WANT to catch flies with honey (or anything else) would be to KILL them. For the record, I have no interest in killing anyone at D*!!

(4) To get away from aphorisms for a moment: in order to have effective communications with corporate types, it helps to be able to cut through the "chatter" and garner their attention. It also helps to have specific suggestions on what needs to be "fixed" or improved, and if possible, suggestions for how to accomplish that. I believe my letter had ALL those things, and moved very quickly past the opening headline to more meaningful content; and yet it was ignored. Not even deleted IMMEDIATELY (as you had suggested that you might do), but just given no attention whatsoever for six weeks, and THEN deleted. I think this is indefensible on the part of D*. But then, more and more readers here are figuring out that this is how D* views their customers: as meaningless numbers whose problems with poor service can safely be ignored. IMHO, your "shot" at me was misplaced; I think D* is still the appropriate target. AFAIK, "Nuance" is still suffering through his poor reception; can you defend D*'s actions (or more accurately, INactions) with regard to THAT?

George


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

you do know if using full Outlook with a preview window the mail can be looked at, forwarded, and deleted without being opened? this creates the deleted w/o being read message.
this is separate from read receipt.


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## hadji (Sep 30, 2006)

Just started having problems with my locals, HD only. Random but frequent pixilation on all channels HD but SD channels are fine. HR-21 and HR-20 so it isn't limited to specific model. Like I said, I have not had this problem ever until recently. I thought things were looking up!


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

David MacLeod said:


> you do know if using full Outlook with a preview window the mail can be looked at, forwarded, and deleted without being opened? this creates the deleted w/o being read message.
> this is separate from read receipt.


Yes, David, actually I DO know that (but thanks for pointing it out nevertheless!  ) I suppose I'm being a bit disingenuous in complaining about getting this notification. My point is that it doesn't even seem to be important to D* and/or Ms. Filipiak to manage their communications in such a way that people don't receive such notices. It's not that hard to avoid such notifications in Outlook, and I would expect someone in Ms. Filipiak's position to either know how to avoid them, or have someone working for her who knows how. (If D* actually DOES read these Forums, I expect they will soon figure OUT how!)

Would it be "better" if I hadn't received this "deleted without being read" notice? Maybe. I suppose it would have saved a few kilobytes on this board! As you pointed out, I still don't know for sure whether my letter was read or not (since it could theoretically have been read in the Preview frame.) But the fact is, I did receive the notice, and it seems to be in keeping with the low level of concern D* has exhibited regarding their customers (i.e. "who cares if this guy gets a 'deleted without being read' notice?"). I believe "rubbing salt in the wound" is the proper aphorism here???

G


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## Spoffo (Jan 1, 2007)

I just stumbled on this very long thread for the first time and have a data point to add in support of the idea that this random breakup problem may be some kind of borderline flaw in the MPEG 4 chain that only affects certain pieces of hardware or reception situations:

I have 3 HR20-700s, 2 using HDMI and 1 using component, and I've never had this breakup problem on any of them. However, I was recently out east helping my son do a big upgrade of his system. Before I went out there, I had him get DTV to upgrade his dish from a 3-lnb to a slimline for the one HR20 he has had for about a year. Right away, he began to complain about random green block stutters on a couple of his MPEG 4 Locals and CNNHD. (No problems observed on any other channels.) I had him comfirm that he had good signal numbers on all his transponders and figured I'd take a look at it when I got out there.

I went east 2 weeks later to do the rest of the upgrade: swapping-in a new HR21 for an old Sony HD receiver and installing an SWM-8 in place of an old, improvised multiswitch lash-up (installed by his home theater guy, not Direct) He has pretty long cable runs to his dish (some of them with *crimp* connectors) and I figured his break-up problem might have been from marginal power at the dish.

In any case, I got the new gear installed and all the bad cable cleaned up. I also got the SWM installed in a location that fits all the recommended specs for cable length, so I'm confident he now has lots of juice at the dish.

Here's the result: The new HR 21 works perfectly on all channels, all the time. However, the HR20 has very brief stutters (not nearly as bad as what Nuance is reporting) about 1 to 3 times per hour on his LILs and CNNHD only. By recording and playing back we were able to confirm that these stutters play back in the same position which supports the idea that they are triggered by something specific in the program stream. By doing side-by-side checks we also confirmed that the HR21 was playing the same channel flawlessly when the HR20 was stuttering. Finally, I felt that the break-ups on CNN were associated with moments of their most intense use of supers and special effects, but that could just have been a false correlation I wanted to see.

A week of every experiment we could think of had us no closer to a solution, and I had to go home. Luckily, he still has access to the NYC MPEG 2 locals and good OTA potential, so this is all more a curiosity than a big problem for him.

My aging engineer's brain - unhindered by any real understanding of the innards of digital video - offers up the following theory of what's going on: Those MPEG-4 signals, especially the ones from local stations - are going through a LOT of stages of processing before DTV gets them up to the bird; most of the MPEG4-encoding hardware is first generation; and a lot of the people running it, especially at local stations, are still climbing a steep learning curve in adjusting and running it. As a result, some of the MPEG-4 signals from locals (and CNN too?) are right at the limit of the acceptable spec for this signal. 

Meanwhile, unit-to-unit variations in hardware, especially in first-generation MPEG-4 receivers like the HR20, combined with less-than-perfect dish installations mean that a small percentage of these receivers are operating very near the lower limit of acceptability in decoding and error-correcting MPEG-4 signals. They do fine most of the time, but when one of these lower-limit receivers runs into one of those almost-out-of-spec signals, things break down and the viewer sees anything from slight stutters to Nuance's awful green flashes.

If I'm right, it will play out a little like the terrible problems we all had with out-of-sync sound in the early days of HD and again with launch of MPEG-4: First we had to get broadcasters and D to see that there was problem, then they started chasing down the causes and found that each loss of sync was the result of a particular, unique situation, not something systemic. Finally, however, they started working all these hardware and procedure bugs out of their system (in essence they tightened the spec) and out-of-sync sound became rarer and rarer.

Too many people are reporting problems with dropouts on MPEG-4, and the oddball specifics of their reports are so consistent, that I can't believe it is just the result of bad receivers or installations. The first challenge is getting the folks at DTV to admit that there is a systemic problem at the broadcasting end (as with sound sync) and then get serious about chasing down the causes.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I find it highly odd that you would get a message of your email being read or not and deleted or not...


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> I find it highly odd that you would get a message of your email being read or not and deleted or not...


I had sent the original message with "read receipt requested". Barring other setups in software or email servers, this usually DOES result in the sender getting such a receipt (at least for Microsoft Outlook.)

GB


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

Well folks, we've come to the end of the line. Today I was told by DirecTV that there is nothing more they can do for me. My case has been closed and disregarded. My rep told me this is the only case he's never been able to solve. YAY ME!  

D* has attributed the issue to some sort of interference outside, perhaps an airplane beacon or something of that sort. I don't have any radio's or crazy electronic devices that would cause this issue, so I just don't know... Maybe my neighbor has some soft of weird old radio...who knows?

Could a wireless router cause this issue? All that I've learned from being an IT guy tells me no way, but who knows at this point... Anyway, I switched to a better router anyhow, so everything hardware has been ruled out.

What kind of interference am I looking for here? It only effects the 103s satellite for some reason. What on earth could it be? I am out of options here, aren't I?

P.S. Complaining to the uplink center and local broadcasters has netted nothing. :nono2:


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Since there's not to many straws to grasp at anymore...

I'd still move the dish.

Another straw, are their any billboards, cell phone/microwave towers around?

Lastly, think back, is anyone doing anything in the house at the same time the issue occurs? Popping popcorn, running a dryer, dishwasher, anything? Any coinciding event?

Who knows, you may be just in some weird geographic RF sink hole.  

Those are the last of my ideas. Good luck.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Since there's not to many straws to grasp at anymore...
> 
> I'd still move the dish.
> 
> ...


Light dimmers have been know to do this. Earl [the great] had to unplug his kid's computer. Even turned off, the supply was noisy enough to spit out garbage until it had "no power".


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

Spoffo said:


> I just stumbled on this very long thread for the first time and have a data point to add in support of the idea that this random breakup problem may be some kind of borderline flaw in the MPEG 4 chain that only affects certain pieces of hardware or reception situations:
> 
> <snip>


Spoffo, I believe your explanation hits the nail on the head (or is very close, anyways.) The point is, I think the only ones who would be able to actually DO anything about it would be D*. For starters, it's my understanding that all these satellite uplinks are encrypted; thus foiling even the most well-intentioned efforts of "amateurs" to try to determine where the fault in the signal chain lies.

To stretch my own engineering background a bit further: it seems to me that it should be quite obvious when one of these MPEG converters is being stretched past its limits (because the MPEG process is inherently a digital one.) If the software/hardware itself doesn't have error detection, at least it should be obvious if one has the ability to digitally examine the unencrypted bitstream output (i.e. green "tiles" should sorta jump out of the numeric data, right? Unless there happens to be a "Fashion Police" episode on hideous green-checkered sport coats...  ) So the problem with finding these "tiling" errors would not seem to be inherently a "technical" one.

If I can wax political here for a moment (fireproof suit on - check): I believe the solution to this problem will come from a functioning FCC. Republicans seem to believe that anything that makes money (for someone, usually corporations) is inherently good; therefore, they have gutted the FCC, relegating them to feeble attempts to censor F-words and Janet Jackson's nipple. IF we get a Democratic president (and reasonably-Democratic Congress), I have hopes that we will see strength restored to the FCC, to the point that they will be able to "step into" big corporations like D*, establish regulations for the quality of digital transmissions (as they did for cable transmissions long ago), and then enforce those regulations so that D* will be required to hunt down and fix problems like Nuance's (and your son's.) In the absence of effective competition (and neither cable nor Dish seems to be providing that), regulation seems to be the only thing that might force D* to invest the money to find and fix these problems. (Yes, I realize that many of the problems may be occurring on "local" stations' uplinks, etc. However, we are not the "customers" of those local stations -- D* is. And D* is the one that is charging us for delivery of both "local" and "network" (e.g. HBO) signals. I believe that, in a practical sense, it will fall to D* to sort out "local" problems from problems in their own system, and follow up on getting the problems fixed, in the same manner that current law dictates that cable companies investigate and fix such problems to the extent that they effect content on the cable.)

Of course, that's just my $.02, and your mileage may vary, etc. 

GB


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## spidey (Sep 1, 2006)

Nuance said:


> Well folks, we've come to the end of the line. Today I was told by DirecTV that there is nothing more they can do for me. My case has been closed and disregarded. My rep told me this is the only case he's never been able to solve. YAY ME!
> 
> D* has attributed the issue to some sort of interference outside, perhaps an airplane beacon or something of that sort. I don't have any radio's or crazy electronic devices that would cause this issue, so I just don't know... Maybe my neighbor has some soft of weird old radio...who knows?
> 
> ...


Have you looked at replacing the actual cable from the dish to multiswitch for the 103 input? Since it isnt the HDMI versus Component problem some of us have seen with HDMI wondering if that had been done yet, maybe really bad shielding etc. Also have they tried a new receiver model???


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## George Be (Apr 1, 2008)

Nuance said:


> Well folks, we've come to the end of the line. Today I was told by DirecTV that there is nothing more they can do for me. My case has been closed and disregarded. My rep told me this is the only case he's never been able to solve. YAY ME!
> 
> <snip>


Wow, Nuance, that REALLY sucks!! Maybe that helps to explain why my email was "deleted without being read"...!!!

For the record, I'm not buying that business about "the only case he's never been able to solve." It might very well be the first case for that rep where the customer hasn't just given up in disgust, and decided to just live with the problem!!

I hope that maybe someone else here can continue to come up with suggestions for how to hunt down the source of the local interference (if that's what it is.) But even if that doesn't happen, perhaps it will be some consolation to know that your experience is "immortalized" here. If reading this thread convinces even ONE person to NOT get D* service (and instead try something else), you will have saved at least one person from going through what YOU went through (and are still enduring!)

I wonder if it would be any help if people started an email campaign to D*, chiding them for ignoring your situation? (I know I already gave that a shot!!!) Maybe there would be some "strength in numbers"?

Best of luck,
George

(P.S. For hopes of a "longer-term" solution, see my recent post here on the FCC!  )


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

I continue seeing lots of green pixelation on Fox local HD channel program "Moment of Truth" in LA market. Am I the only one seeing it?


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

spidey said:


> Have you looked at replacing the actual cable from the dish to multiswitch for the 103 input? Since it isnt the HDMI versus Component problem some of us have seen with HDMI wondering if that had been done yet, maybe really bad shielding etc. Also have they tried a new receiver model???


it had all been swapped out before, some items more than once.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

RobertE said:


> Since there's not to many straws to grasp at anymore...
> 
> I'd still move the dish.
> 
> ...


The only thing that has not been done relocating the dish. However, I am actually with D* on this one - there's no better spot for it than where it is. Actually, it really can't go anywhere else.

There are no billboards, cell phone or microwave towers around.

Finally, we aren't running any appliances or light dimmers when the issue occurs. In fact, tonight my wife was switching through the stations and channel 6 (Fox HD) exhibited the issue. Bummer...


spidey said:


> Have you looked at replacing the actual cable from the dish to multiswitch for the 103 input? Since it isnt the HDMI versus Component problem some of us have seen with HDMI wondering if that had been done yet, maybe really bad shielding etc. Also have they tried a new receiver model???


All new cables have been run. Actually, every piece of hardware has been replaced at least once. I have not, however, been given a different model of DVR. You think an HR20 or the newer version of the HR21 would do the trick? Hmm...


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

P.S. Would getting D* to install that new SWM-enabled Slimline (AU9) dish do anything? I haven't read up much on it, so I don't know if it applies or not.


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

Nuance, What type of water heater do you have in the home, Electric or gas? How about a sump pump or water well pump? One more thing, do you or any of your neighbors have any X10 controlled appliances or other ectrical devices?

Bob


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

azarby said:


> Nuance, What type of water heater do you have in the home, Electric or gas? How about a sump pump or water well pump? One more thing, do you or any of your neighbors have any X10 controlled appliances or other ectrical devices?
> 
> Bob


We have a sump pump, and according to my wife is goes on frequently.

We have a Kenmore Economizer 5 gas water heater.

Finally, what is an X10 controlled appliance?


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## kokishin (Sep 30, 2006)

Nuance,

X10 info: http://www.smarthome.com/about_x10.html



Nuance said:


> We have a sump pump, and according to my wife is goes on frequently.
> 
> We have a Kenmore Economizer 5 gas water heater.
> 
> Finally, what is an X10 controlled appliance?


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

Nuance said:


> We have a sump pump, and according to my wife is goes on frequently.
> 
> We have a Kenmore Economizer 5 gas water heater.
> 
> Finally, what is an X10 controlled appliance?


I was thinking that the sump pump could be sending out interference (inductive kick back) or you might have a defective thermostat on an electric water heater that oscilllates back and forth sending out RF to mess up the signal. A gas water heater should be ok unless it is one of these new electroninc controlled on demand heaters. I would see if temproarily shutting down the sump pump for a few hours makes any differnece.

Since the HR21 is in the basement, in what proximity is it to the sump pump and the sump pump electrical circuit.

X10 devices are remote controlled lights, electrical appilances or outlets. If your neighbor uses one , depending if you are on the same transformer or not, he could be sending garbage into your power lines.

Again, no guarantees, but things to think about.

Bob


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Nuance said:


> We have a sump pump, and according to my wife is goes on frequently........


Next time you have problems you need to pull the breaker on that pump just to make sure it's not causing electrical noise. Probably not, but you never know. Don't forget to put the breaker back on afterwards......


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (May 12, 2008)

TomCat said:


> I, for one, have never seen a pixellation, stutter, or anything even close to that since my install in December.


If this is true, I am so envious it hurts. My experience the last few months has been aweful. By far the worst I've had with D* since '02.


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## uteotw (Sep 30, 2006)

E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> If this is true, I am so envious it hurts. My experience the last few months has been aweful. By far the worst I've had with D* since '02.


Same here. I've had more problems in the past 2 months than in the past 6 years before that. And the fact that there are TWELVE pages (so far) on this issue should show that it's serious and needs to be addressed by D* NOW...... (and no, I don't need to reboot or check the cables again, which is all they tell me on the phone).:nono2:

Edit: I am at my wits' end w/D*. I've done everything possible over the phone, checked all cables, blah blah. Then I got a real smart*** on the phone who wanted to charge me $80 to have it checked out, w/out any sort of credit for all the programming I've been paying for but haven't been able to actually WATCH. I can't begin to explain her sarcasm, but one example would be: "If your hot water heater isn't working, you don't call the water company and ask them to fix it for free." Huh?

Anyway, got a "supervisor" who was just as bad and put me through to retention. Long story short: Added the "protection plan," $19.95 service call fee waived, can cancel for $10 fee. I guess even if I pay it for a year it's $72, which is cheaper than one $80 service call, and while I'm not really interested in upping my bill even MORE right now, I realy just want it to WORK as it should.

Unfortunately, my hopes aren't that high based on what I hear, but what are my odds a tech can actually FIX this problem? Slim to none? 50/50? Any adivce???

Thanks.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

I can't pull the sump pump out of the equation right now because we are getting slammed here in WI with storms. Tomorrow we may set a record for the most rain in June EVER.

I wonder if the water heater or sump pump is sending out some interference. So kokishin, would you recommend I get both the noise filter (for the box) and the phase coupler? You guys think that would solve the issue if the sump pump is the issue?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Nuance said:


> I can't pull the sump pump out of the equation right now because we are getting slammed here in WI with storms. Tomorrow we may set a record for the most rain in June EVER.
> 
> I wonder if the water heater or sump pump is sending out some interference. So kokishin, would you recommend I get both the noise filter (for the box) and the phase coupler? You guys think that would solve the issue if the sump pump is the issue?


I think you could chase your tail for a while trying all of this.
Wait until you can simply open the breaker [turn off] for the sump pump/septic tank [whatever] and then see if there is any change. If there is, THEN look into the things to resolve the noise.


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## uteotw (Sep 30, 2006)

Well, a tech came out today and replaced the satellite dish with a "newer" model and a couple connectors he said were bad. HD Picture is fine right now, which is good, and signal strength numbers in 103(c) are all in the 90s, but the pixelation/freezing/etc. problem has always been sporadic so we'll see. Could this take care of it?


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

I hope it does take care of it, uteotw. However, all of my hardware was replaced at least once, so...

Well, the sump pump has been going like crazy lately, but we haven't had any pixelation. With all the tornado warnings and thunderstorms lately, we've been in the basement a LOT and have been tuned into the local channels to watch the radars. So far, no green pixelation, so I don't think it's the sump pump.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

It's not the pump, then. I think at this point we've pretty much established that your problems are not _your_ problems. As I understand it, you have OTA reception now with the AM21. So is there a continuing issue with your ability to receive local HD's?


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## stroker (Jun 13, 2008)

Hey Nuance - Feeling the same pain here in Albany NY

I'm a new D* cust on Mar 29th. Everthing was great for about two weeks.
Then on local Fox HD sound was delayed about 1-2seconds for the whole show making it not watchable.

Called D* they told me to contact local station. My reply was I'm purchasing signal from D*. Tech said they would file a complaint. The problem was only on HD.
My SD set had no problems. The same problem happened again two weeks later.
Called D* - they could not find the first complaint. Said it would be escalated - never heard back. Series ended so I stopped watching. My other local HD's only started to have long audio stutter problems and the occassional pixellation - not always green. then it got worse and more frequent.

My signal strengths were very good and I have a perfectly clear shot to the sky. Issues happen when it is calm and clear also.

D* setup service call, but it took 8 days for the tech to come out. He peeked Ant, changed connectors and said wait and see. Next day it's back. Finally got local number and had Sr tech call back - he stated that D*'s aware of issue and will be sending out new downloads.

Just checked and I have 0X0235 downloaded last night - I still have audio and video issues but only on the local HD channels.

My wife's about to do something really bad to me if they don't get it fixed soon.
We never had these issues with cable.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

"Something really bad," huh? Wow. I wonder what that might be..... 

I suggest you do the same thing as Nuance. If you have an HR21, order an AM21 add-on OTA receiver, put up an indoor or outdoor TV antenna as appropriate to your location, and forget the DirecTV HD locals until they get this straightened out.

Welcome to DBSTalk!


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## uteotw (Sep 30, 2006)

Well, I didn't do hours and hours of testing, but after a new dish and 2 new connectors, I experienced no problems last night on any HD channel, local or otherwise (and I'd been having big problems with both). The problems were never consistent, though, so only time will tell...


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

John Wayne Bobbit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorena_Bobbitt


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## jdjeff (Sep 20, 2007)

I have EXACTLY the same problem. Only seems to happen at night though. They've replaced all the connections, multiswitch, etc... Happens on both the HD locals and other HD channels like TBS, Discovery, HBO. Pciture at beginning of recording starts to break up and quickly becomes completely messed up until after a minute or so I get the "do you want to delete" message even though it shows the recording being complete. It happens on all four of my HD DVRS at the same time (3HR20s and 1 HR21). My dish is dialed in (95-100 in almost every case) and all of my boxes are up to date software wise. No obstructions, no above ground power lines or towers. Again, though, I never see an issue during the day. It is only happening at night. The tech/supervisor is very frustrated and I'm at my wits end. Almost every primetime show I record or watch breaks up! The tech lives close by and has no problem on his HD boxes on the shows I'm losing (he called me to check that it wasn't just a local channel issue).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jdjeff said:


> I have EXACTLY the same problem. Only seems to happen at night though. *They've replaced all the connections, multiswitch, etc...* Happens on both the HD locals and other HD channels like TBS, Discovery, HBO. Pciture at beginning of recording starts to break up and quickly becomes completely messed up until after a minute or so I get the "do you want to delete" message even though it shows the recording being complete. It happens on all four of my HD DVRS at the same time (3HR20s and 1 HR21). My dish is dialed in (95-100 in almost every case) and all of my boxes are up to date software wise. No obstructions, no above ground power lines or towers. Again, though, I never see an issue during the day. It is only happening at night. The tech/supervisor is very frustrated and I'm at my wits end. Almost every primetime show I record or watch breaks up! The tech lives close by and has no problem on his HD boxes on the shows I'm losing (he called me to check that it wasn't just a local channel issue).


Two things come to mind [I have only a small one]:
Has the LNB assembly been changed?
Try doing a temp [receivers] swap with the tech for a day or two and see who has the problem.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Two things come to mind [I have only a small one]:
> *Has the LNB assembly been changed?*
> Try doing a temp [receivers] swap with the tech for a day or two and see who has the problem.


There have definitely been members' posts at DBSTalk where their LNB's, although delivering normal 103 signal strengths, were causing pixelation - not many, but it's usually an easy thing to swap an LNB. I'd swap LNB's with the tech supervisor first, since all your receivers are effected.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> I suggest you do the same thing as Nuance. If you have an HR21, order an AM21 add-on OTA receiver, put up an indoor or outdoor TV antenna as appropriate to your location, and forget the DirecTV HD locals until they get this straightened out.
> 
> Welcome to DBSTalk!


That _has_ resolved the issue. But if I am paying D* $70 a month for service, should I really have to spend another $50 on the AM21 and $70 on a decent OTA antenna to fix an issue that they are responsible to fix? I mean, come on...

So, what's the scoop on the newer boxes and new satellite dish? Should I request one of each?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

For those of us who paid that much every month for quite a while for a very limited number of HD channels (CH's 70-79) and had _no_ HD locals except OTA, it's no big deal. Many of us prefer OTA anyhow for reliability and PQ and would spend $70 to get it without a second thought. Having DirecTV10 now on our "Gratitude List" since last August kind of changes our perspective about DirecTV's problems with HD locals, and patience is something we're getting used to with the implementation of this technology. The alternatives at my location are less than appetizing.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

^ yeah, I hear ya man. Well, I've got the AM21, so I am happy right now. And I found out I may be moving soon anyway, so a new location should do the trick.  Does D* charge for re-location?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Watch out for commitment extensions with the "free" DirecTV Mover's Connection. Also, now that you've spent so much time figuring out how all this works, consider that you'd better be on hand or do it yourself.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

^ Thanks for the info, buddy!


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## jdjeff (Sep 20, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Two things come to mind [I have only a small one]:
> Has the LNB assembly been changed?
> Try doing a temp [receivers] swap with the tech for a day or two and see who has the problem.


Yes, the LNB has been changed. Probably don't need to do a receiver swap as I have 7 receivers all with the same exact problem. I plugged the multiswitch into a UPS with voltage regulation (just before going on vacation) and for that night at least, I didn't have a problem. When I get back, I'll check the recordings and see how it went.


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## tweaked (Jul 1, 2008)

FWIW, I've been experiencing the HD local pixelation issues described almost ad nauseam in just this one thread (had some free time today, Sunday... took me a good hour to wade through them all).

Like many, my signal levels are fine on both tuners and all sat's. The errors I'm seeing are appearing on all of my HD locals which include ABC, NBC and FOX, less frequently on CBS. There have been no problems with OTA HD locals. Seems to come and go at totally random times, day or night and interestingly, will affect one of the HD locals more than another at a given time; which local’s affected more seems to be random as well. 

I’ll be swapping out a Slimline this upcoming week for reasons other than reception alone and will be mounting it in a location with an even clearer, more wide open view of all the birds. Being my current signal levels are at the very worst, acceptable, I’m not expecting the occasional pixelation I'm seeing on HD locals to go away. 

Seems to me, if the overwhelming majority of posts on this particular thread report issues (only) with their HD locals AND it’s assumed all have acceptable reception with no obvious equipment, environment or setup/install considerations, it’s a case of transitional growing pains for not only local stations but for DirecTV as well. 

As other have suggested, MPEG coding/decoding is likely a contributing factor. Whether a solution can be found at the end user side (through software or hardware upgrades) or the remedy lies further up the chain, who knows; it may be a combination of both.

I’m soooo glad my OTA Winegard 7080's pulling its weight and oh yeah... a genuine, heart felt shout out to DirecTV for throwing in an AM21.


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## chisox63 (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm having the same exact problems as many in this thread. Pixelation and garble, particularly on HD locals...especially on NBC during the Olympics. 

I have all the brand new stuff, including 3 HD DVRs. 

I've only had DTV for 3 weeks and I've already had 3 service calls. Everyone one of the techs is clueless. I've had the LNB replaced, but no luck. I have the AM21 and don't have any problems when watching the same channels OTA.

My signals on the 103(s) is not the best, with some very low. Every onsite tech, and everyone I've spoke with at DTV on the phone insists that 103(s) and 99(s) are not even in use. The techs outright refuse to help me get my 103(s) numbers higher to help fix this problem.

Can someone please tell me where I can find out exactly which satellite transponder each of my local HD channels come from? I'm in Chicago. This is killing me.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

chisox63 said:


> I'm having the same exact problems as many in this thread. Pixelation and garble, particularly on HD locals...especially on NBC during the Olympics.
> 
> I have all the brand new stuff, including 3 HD DVRs.
> 
> ...


103(s) & 99(s) are SPOT beams, which means, only one, possibly two are actually aimed at you. The rest are aimed somewhere else. So you should have one/two with 80+ the others can be anywhere between 0 & 100.

Anyway, if you want any real help, here's a good way to start:

Start your own thread.
Post your setup top to bottom, dish, switches, receivers, etc.
Post your signal levels, most importantly, 103(c) & 99(c).
Try not to insult people right off the bat. Some of those you insult, might just have the knowledge to help you fix your problem. Then again, we might just be clueless.


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## Nuance (Nov 30, 2007)

So it's been over six months and the issue was never resolved (we just dealt with it). Well, we recently moved and now all our local channels in High Definition are pixelated and unwatchable. We had a technician out yesterday to "fix" the issue, but it is still happening, especially at night. So I call D* today to see what the deal is and they claim the tech never came yesterday and that the work order was canceled.   What a joke!!

I tried explaining all the issues we have had in the past, but they didn't care. I asked to cancel the service and have the early cancellation fee waved, but they said they couldn't do that. I never thought I would say this, but I actually miss Time Warner's customer service. DirecTV has been a joke in comparison, and they don't seem to even care that I can't watch any local HD channels. I asked to talk to me previous case worker again, but they said they didn't know who he was.

Anyone have any advice, because this is just ridiculous? I have had it!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nuance said:


> So it's been over six months and the issue was never resolved (we just dealt with it). Well, we recently moved and now all our local channels in High Definition are pixelated and unwatchable. We had a technician out yesterday to "fix" the issue, but it is still happening, especially at night. So I call D* today to see what the deal is and they claim the tech never came yesterday and that the work order was canceled.   What a joke!!
> 
> I tried explaining all the issues we have had in the past, but they didn't care. I asked to cancel the service and have the early cancellation fee waved, but they said they couldn't do that. I never thought I would say this, but I actually miss Time Warner's customer service. DirecTV has been a joke in comparison, and they don't seem to even care that I can't watch any local HD channels. I asked to talk to me previous case worker again, but they said they didn't know who he was.
> 
> Anyone have any advice, because this is just ridiculous? I have had it!


I didn't read any of the past posts (never read it before either) but have you had your receiver replaced? This is assuming your LNB is ok and already been replaced?


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