# Feb. 17 DTV Date May Have To Move



## kocuba

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/CA6627445.html


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## harsh

A jolly bad idea all the way around. They need to get this thing done.

They need to start by replacing all national programming on analog channels with a loop telling people that they need to get out from under their collective rocks and get with the program.

Of course if they find out, as they did in Wilmington, that some signals weren't as good ad they thought they were, they need to let people know that their broadcast service is going away entirely.

There is no easy way to break the news and the sooner they identify the problems, the sooner they can be resolved.

Holding the door open only takes money away from the coupon program.


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## ziggy29

Is anyone *really* surprised?


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## eacalhoun

This is friggin ridiculous! As has been stated in the "nightlight" thread, there's been plenty of promotion to the public of this happening and I feel sorry for the engineers who are now wondering if they will have to keep up two main transmitters for another month. What's to say another extension won't be lobbied for on March 17? When will the madness end?


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## GaryPotter

Pardon my French, but anyone who doesn't understand what's happening by now has no business watching TV in the first place.

I mean God, after all the crap that we've seen for the past year you'd think everyone would have gotten the message by now. And even without the coupons, the things only cost forty dollars. I think most people can afford that.


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## Kansas Zephyr

It's way too late in the game to toss this wrench into the works.

It will only create more confusion and frustration.

Yet another example of our federal government thinking it helps to keep changing the rules.


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## HIPAR

There are lots of digital stations currently transmitting that enthusiasts can watch so let's just postpone the DTV transition indefinitely. If we wait long enough, all those analog sets will burn out and be replaced by new ones with digital tuners .. the box problem goes away.

The big problem is the auctioned spectrum. Sorry ATT and Verizon, here's your money back.

--- CHAS


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## tcusta00

40 days. 40 days. <rocking and sucking thumb> 40 days. 40 days.


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## Kansas Zephyr

HIPAR said:


> *There are lots of digital stations currently transmitting *that enthusiasts can watch so let's just postpone the DTV transition indefinitely.


There are not "lots of digital stations"...*ALL* full-power TV stations (save a very few handful rushing to finish) are digital!

Some full-power analog stations have already gone dark to complete the necessary engineering for the current deadline.


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## Scott in FL

Yep, and I can guarantee that all of the analog stations still on the air have timed things out so they're now getting the last few hours out of the very, very expensive tubes that go in the finals of their analog transmitters. If the FCC tells them they must go another 6 months or more, there will be protests from the station owners. 

I know the CBS and CW stations I used to work for here in Ft Myers have had Feb 17 circled on the calendar for a long time!

My gut feeling is the transition will happen as schedule. Hopefully...


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## HIPAR

Kansas Zephyr said:


> There are not "lots of digital stations"...*ALL* full-power TV stations (save a very few handful rushing to finish) are digital!
> 
> Some full-power analog stations have already gone dark to complete the necessary engineering for the current deadline.


I've seen reference to over a thousand of the 1700 stations already operating their DTV post transition facilities.

The ones analog dark or going that way can either resurrect their NTSC equipment to continue dual channel operation or stay analog dark.

Those with unique channel allocation problems and cannot broadcast can petition the FCC to retain station status so they can still receive carriage on cable/satellite. They might be the real interim winners.

We can argue about the importance for full DTV power but it doesn't matter to the general public who can still watch the analog outlet.

--- CHAS


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## CoriBright

The sooner the transition happens, the sooner the stations can get round to addressing the translator issue, since we live in an area that doesn't get and isn't going to get digital tv on Feb 17th. Since Dish doesn't give Las Vegas HD Locals, we here live in an analog age for network tv  

Ho hum, one day they'll get around to it.


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## Kansas Zephyr

HIPAR said:


> I've seen reference to over a thousand of the 1700 stations already operating their DTV post transition facilities.
> 
> The ones analog dark or going that way can either resurrect their NTSC equipment to continue dual channel operation or stay analog dark.


I was trying to say that there are more, than "lots" of DTV...they ALL are. 

...and call your local Chief Engineers and ask how "easy" it would be to resurrect their dark analog equipment.


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## Mark Holtz

I read the story on SF Gate, and found this quote:


> "With coupons unavailable, support and education insufficient, and the most vulnerable Americans exposed, I urge you to consider a change to the legislatively mandated analog cutoff date," (Obama transition team co-chair John) Podesta wrote.


Right now, the problem is that the coupon program has no more funds. People who apply for the coupons now are now put on a wait list so that as unused expire, money becomes available.

And, how many of us have seen the crawls, commercials, and the web site ads? In English and Spanish? How about some of the mis-information like "You need a new TeeVee" when a converter box is readily available? Or the cable companies saying "Prepare for the digital transition by subscribing to cable"?

What has puzzled me is WHY they selected February 17th as the cut off date? That is in the middle of sweeps. I would have selected June. That's a minor thing though.

But, the way it is being spun is that TeeVee is either god-given or a constitutionally-mandated right, and by golly, we need to tackle it (like we don't have more important issues to deal with). Right. There are plenty of other entertainment options available. It is not the end of the world if you don't have TV, just a life-changing.


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## Mark Holtz

One other thing. The February 17th transition only affects FULL-POWER stations. Low-power stations will still be on the air for a while.


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## LCDSpazz

I guess they'll need new PSA's now. 

"You know how we've been hammering this Feb. 17th date for months and months now? Nevermind all that noise. But this next date we're going to give you - BELIEVE THAT ONE. DON'T DELAY OR YOU'LL LOSE YOUR SIGNAL IN JUNE. That's the real one. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T BELIEVE US?"


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## robmadden1

Sweeps are in March not February this year because of the analog cut off on Feb. 17th.


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## Kansas Zephyr

Mark Holtz said:


> One other thing. The February 17th transition only affects FULL-POWER stations. Low-power stations will still be on the air for a while.


Yes, low power, Class A, and translator stations CAN, post 2/17, remain analog, if they wish.

However, there are more than a handful that plan to flash-cut to digital before the FCC finally mandates it, or already have.


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## James Long

http://tvdecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/obama-recommends-delay-in-digital-tv-switch/


> Major broadcasters, including ABC and NBC, have signaled that they support a delay. In a statement, NBC called the administration's move "prudent and well-considered." CBS said in a statement it was open to the suggestion.





> Millions of television viewers would be affected by the switch. In December, Nielsen Media Research estimated that 7.8 million households, representing 6.8 percent of homes with television, have not upgraded any of their television sets for the transition. Those homes would be unable to receive any TV signals after the switch. Subscribers to cable or satellite television will not be affected by the transition


My response ...

*NOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !*

Broadcasters have been focused on February 17th for a long time ... plans have been made to turn up the power on STAs to full power on the 18th or change to new digital channels. Much of the spectrum the analog channels are using is spoken for on February 18th. And as complained about in the filings regarding "Nightlight" stations, the stations have budgeted based on NOT using that electricity.

Some analog transmitters have been reduced to partial power so part of the transmitter can be used for digital. Others will be moving transmitters from city to city to cover their licenses. And now with 40 days to go all those plans are on hold?

*No.* With apologies, *this is not the change we need*.


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## Kansas Zephyr

93% of US households are ready for the transition.

I think that's an impressive number.

How many of those 7% will need the kick in the pants of watching snow, before they get a converter, no matter what the analog cut-off date would be?

How many of the "analog 7%" are just lazy, not poor?


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## RobertE

Sorry to those who will have nothing but snow on 2/18. But a line has to be drawn somewhere. Like removing a bandaid, sometimes you just got to rip that sucker off and be done with it.


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## GaryPotter

Here's one thing that really gets me:

*Why is everyone relying on that coupon?*

Seriously, those boxes are dirt cheap. Just buy it with your own money. Come on.


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## mark44

I am embarased that our G'mint cant follow through on this.
C'mon.........the date's been set for years!

<HIDING HEAD IN SHAME> :nono2:


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## Doug Brott

Crazy .. Just absolutely crazy .. Years of planning for naught?

A report I just saw says that most broadcasters will go through with the transition on February 17th anyway unless it is against the law. I sure hope better heads prevail .. heck, even the fact that we're talking about this 5 weeks before the deadline is mistake .. Sheesh!


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## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> Crazy .. Just absolutely crazy .. Years of planning for naught?
> 
> A report I just saw says that most broadcasters will go through with the transition on February 17th anyway unless it is against the law. I sure hope better heads prevail .. heck, even the fact that we're talking about this 5 weeks before the deadline is mistake .. Sheesh!


At the moment it is against the law for a full power station to broadcast in analog after February 17th unless they are participating in the "nightlight" service. Emergency service ... no regular programming.

For anything else to happen it would take a law ... or an executive order. Hopefully the new government won't start off their term(s) by pandering to a minority of viewers.


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## Mark Holtz

Best Buy: $54.99-$59.99 for a converter box
Target: $49 for a converter box

Does anyone else but me think these converter units are priced $40 too high, and that once the coupon are all gone, the prices will drop $40 and the units will show up on woot?


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## James Long

Mark Holtz said:


> Does anyone else but me think these converter units are priced $40 too high, and that once the coupon are all gone, the prices will drop $40 and the units will show up on woot?


Yes.

As of January 7th, 4pm:
25.3 million households have requested 47.4 million coupons. There are currently about 10.7 million coupons active, 18.8 million have been redeemed 13.3 million have expired. 948,657 are on the waiting list. Redemption rate has been 52.7%.

https://www.dtv2009.gov/Stats.aspx


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## samhevener

tcusta00 said:


> 40 days. 40 days. <rocking and sucking thumb> 40 days. 40 days.


A 40 day delay? I think not. The FINAL congressional delay will be at least 6 months to a year. I say FINAL congressional delay, not the first. The economy is going to go into a major tailspin and many private and government programs that we never thought of are going to be delayed or cut.


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## James Long

samhevener said:


> A 40 day delay? I think not.


You misunderstood ... we're 40 days away from February 17th. That's the countdown.


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## fluffybear

Great idea, Let's send the issue back to congress and have them set a new date. Maybe by the time they get done fighting amongst themselves, they will adopt another standard and we will all have to buy new TV's again..


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## bidger

Kansas Zephyr said:


> 93% of US households are ready for the transition.
> 
> I think that's an impressive number.


I agree, but if you don't mind, where did you get that info? I checked the hyperlinks in the thread and didn't come across it.


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## fluffybear

bidger said:


> I agree, but if you don't mind, where did you get that info? I checked the hyperlinks in the thread and didn't come across it.


The other morning I heard on the radio while driving to work that less then 6% of US households were not ready for the transition.


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## n3ntj

Just stick to the original date. Why on earth are people waiting until now to get ready to 'switch'? We've all known this day was coming for over a year. Deal with it.


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## tcusta00

samhevener said:


> A 40 day delay? I think not. The FINAL congressional delay will be at least 6 months to a year. I say FINAL congressional delay, not the first. The economy is going to go into a major tailspin and many private and government programs that we never thought of are going to be delayed or cut.





James Long said:


> You misunderstood ... we're 40 days away from February 17th. That's the countdown.


39 days. 39 days. <tugging at hair 'til it starts to come out> 39 days. 39 days.

 :lol:


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## Mark Holtz

tcusta00 said:


> 39 days. 39 days. <tugging at hair 'til it starts to come out> 39 days. 39 days. :lol:


Unless you live in Hawaii. Then, it's 6 days. :grin:


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## cmtar

I think a lot of people are getting the cards not knowing they probably dont need them. I mean i do not know anyone who needs one. Not saying people dont but for example i use an antenna to get OTA and someone who didnt know any better would think they would need one for that when they dont.


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## jpl

harsh said:


> They need to start by replacing all national programming on analog channels with a loop telling people that they need to get out from under their collective rocks and get with the program.


Amen! I don't know why this wasn't part of the transition plan. Instead of just shutting down the feeds on one day, why not keep the feeds going for, say, a month, but instead of showing TV programming, they would instead show a 2 minute informercial saying, in effect, 'you've just lost your TV programming... here's what you need to do to fix this.'

Verizon, to their credit, did something very much like that when they eliminated their analogs. Despite the fact that they notified us by every conceivable means (automated phone calls, info in our bills, info on their website in about a thousand different places, a VOD that was nothing but info on the analog elimination, a scroll on one of their channels, e-mail messages...) - you had to be living under a dozen rocks to miss it... and yet, human nature being what it is, there were people who were still surprised by it. As a final notification, about 1 - 2 weeks before they fully killed their analog feeds, they replaced the TV programming with the dreaded red screen of death - basically text on a red background - telling you 'we told you this was coming... call us NOW to get your free digital adapter!'


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## homeskillet

I know my local state broadcast association is very opposed to this. They cite the effort to get the word out over the last year, the money they've poured into phone banks, classes, meetings ect. The most important one is the cost to station to operate two full power transmitters, which almost every station didn't budget having past Feb. 17. It takes a lot of money to keep a TV station on the air, much less two copies of every station. Stick with Feb. 17.


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## Sirshagg

Why in the world did they pick 2/17 - the middle of the TV season, sweeps time (i think), and the middle of winter when people are likely to be snowed in? Why niot summer when a much larger percent of people don't care about TV?

Surely they must know there will be some problems.

That said - the date is set. We have been waiting for years and now we are just a few weeks away. This talk about a delay is crazy. If we wait for every last idiot to pull their head out of the sand it will never happen.


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## machavez00

Do it and get it over with.


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## James Long

bidger said:


> I agree, but if you don't mind, where did you get that info? I checked the hyperlinks in the thread and didn't come across it.


It was part of the NY Times Article and included in my quoye above:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1952265#post1952265


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## Spanky_Partain

This will only delay my getting a nice BIG HDTV for the garage. Shhh... don't tell the wife the old one will work! But this delay might let her know I do not need to replace it! :lol:


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## James Long

homeskillet said:


> It takes a lot of money to keep a TV station on the air, much less two copies of every station. Stick with Feb. 17.


Based on the "nightlight" filings, about $7k per month. I'm sure that varies based on station and power output. _*Requiring*_ the continuance of analog signals would be an unfunded mandate ... unless, of course, the government makes us pay for the extension through "subsidies" to the stations.


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## tcusta00

James Long said:


> Based on the "nightlight" filings, about $7k per month. I'm sure that varies based on station and power output. _*Requiring*_ the continuance of analog signals would be an unfunded mandate ... unless, of course, the government makes us pay for the extension through "subsidies" to the stations.


But but but... the people are going to suffer if they don't push it off... so let's just shift the burden to business and then subsidize that with money from the government and then just raise taxes to cover the increasing deficit being created so the people don't have to suffer. :scratchin

39 days.


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## jimmyv2000

according to my Local news station(WCVB 5 Boston)96% of the BOSTON area households are ready.
I just hope the stations just do it on the 17th and get it over with.
2 stations in my area turned off thier analog signals last month 1 on its own WZMY on 12/1 and WFXT fox 25 due to severe damage to its analog antenna last month possibly from the ice storm but that has not been confirmed.


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## phox_mulder

jimmyv2000 said:


> 2 stations in my area turned off thier analog signals last month 1 on its own WZMY on 12/1 and WFXT fox 25 due to severe damage to its analog antenna last month possibly from the ice storm but that has not been confirmed.


We turned off two of the 5 stations we are running already. (one in your neck of the woods, CW Affiliate out of RI)

One in November, the other in December.

2 of the remaining are low power, so who knows how long they'll stick around.

The other is getting turned off in 39 days, come hell or high water.

I have the power in my little finger.
Damm the FCC, full steam ahead.

phox


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## dhhaines

So let me get this right...... we're talking about spending thousands of more dollars because ~6% of people haven't gotten off their collective butts and gone to get a converter or new TV? :nono2:

Pull the D$#@ plug on analog already and get it over with! When these people are watching snow they'll either not watch anymore TV or they'll go get a box.


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## scooper

phox_mulder said:


> We turned off two of the 5 stations we are running already. (one in your neck of the woods, CW Affiliate out of RI)
> 
> One in November, the other in December.
> 
> 2 of the remaining are low power, so who knows how long they'll stick around.
> 
> The other is getting turned off in 39 days, come hell or high water.
> 
> I have the power in my little finger.
> Damm the FCC, full steam ahead.
> 
> phox


ROFL- I like your attitude, I hope it doesn't get you into trouble


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## Stewart Vernon

More insanity.

I remember when the "original" date was going to be sometime in 2006, but everyone on the production side was woefully behind so they agreed to move it out to this year. If they move it again, I'd have no confidence in it ever becoming a mandate.

Companies have no excuse for not being ready by now period.

Consumers have a little excuse in that some folks in the rural areas might not have been getting the word until the latter part of last year because some stations have been much worse than others about informing their viewers of the impending change. Still, even with that, the cost of the converter is minimal compared to other costs of living.

Delaying simply because of the coupon debacle is insane. Firstly, the whole coupon business really should never have happened anyway. The fact that it has been mismanaged is just icing on the cake. Where people get an entitlement for a $40 converter box is beyond me. There is no entitlement to a TV, an antenna, a home, electricity (all things required to use with the converter box)... and anyone for whom that $40 would really dent their budget has far more pressing problems (like their next meal or medication) to worry about than TV.


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## Paul Secic

kocuba said:


> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/CA6627445.html


I don't think they should delay the transition again. People who have OTA have had ample time to get a converter or a small digital set.


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## bidger

James Long said:


> It was part of the NY Times Article and included in my quoye above:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1952265#post1952265


Ah, thank you James. I was looking for the "93%" quote and missed the "6.8% unready" part.

Full steam ahead I say. The odds of 100% preparedness or perfection is slim, but 93% is real damn close.


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## LCDSpazz

I'm not very bright, so could someone explain this to me?

How are people STILL not ready for this shut-down after months of daily warnings supposed to BELIEVE THE NEW SHUT-DOWN DATE if we go and ditch the current one at the last minute like this? 

ME: "Hey man, you better be ready for this digital conversion by June 30th, or you'll lose your signal." 

JOE 12 PACK: "Yea, that's what they said about February 17th. It's just a bunch of scare nonsense. No worries man."


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## fluffybear

dhhaines said:


> So let me get this right...... we're talking about spending thousands of more dollars because ~6% of people haven't gotten off their collective butts and gone to get a converter or new TV? :nono2:
> 
> Pull the D$#@ plug on analog already and get it over with! When these people are watching snow they'll either not watch anymore TV or they'll go get a box.


No, we are talking about spending millions more dollars because ~6% have not gotten off their butts. So we delay this a year or two, there is still going to be a segment of our population who will refuse to do anything about it until the switch actually happens.

Maybe we can wait until 2013, NASA is saying we are due for a major solar flare storm in 2012 which could play serious havoc with the electric grid and satellites for several months.

Worst part delaying this any longer is that when the time comes that some other fathead will suggest we delay the transition further again because ~6% of the population is still not ready!!


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## scooper

Fund more coupons if you think it will help, but DO NOT MOVE THAT DATE !


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## scooper

You know - maybe we should ALL send a SNAIL MAIL to our senators and Representative in Congress expressing this. (Snail mail shows you cared enough to use stamps ).


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## dhhaines

scooper said:


> Fund more coupons if you think it will help, but DO NOT MOVE THAT DATE !


 More coupons won't help anything. You'll still have ~6% who aren't ready.

Time to just DO IT.


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## Alan Gordon

James Long said:


> Based on the "nightlight" filings, about $7k per month. I'm sure that varies based on station and power output.


"Full power UHF = appx. $30,000/month."

~Alan


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## elaclair

Man, you know this reminds me so much of our mandated transition to the metric system. What mandate you say? My response to that is; "Exactly!"


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## dhhaines

elaclair said:


> Man, you know this reminds me so much of our mandated transition to the metric system. What mandate you say? My response to that is; "Exactly!"


 I vaguely remember something like that...... but it went away.:sure:


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## harsh

Scott in FL said:


> Yep, and I can guarantee that all of the analog stations still on the air have timed things out so they're now getting the last few hours out of the very, very expensive tubes that go in the finals of their analog transmitters.


Who in Sam Hill (other than anal retentive audiophiles) uses tubes?


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## Cholly

harsh said:


> Who in Sam Hill (other than anal retentive audiophiles) uses tubes?


All TV and radio stations. Surely, you don't think they're using thousands of transistors to come up with ten to fifty kw. of output power! !rolling


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## harsh

scooper said:


> Fund more coupons if you think it will help, but DO NOT MOVE THAT DATE !


I'm not sure, but it seems like 40% of the coupons expired and they're not letting them issue new ones to new customers. Let's do the math:

nn million coupons X 40 dollars/coupon = 1mm million dollars.

The whole transition program had an overall budget of over one billion, right?

Did it really cost that much to do the education part and administer the program?

Of course the real issue is all of those that got coupons but couldn't find a box to spend them on and can't get replacement coupons since theirs expired.

Clearly this project wasn't designed to serve the public interest as much as it was to spend large sums of money keeping people employed.


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## scooper

I've emailed all of my Congress critters urging do not delay.

Info to contact members of Congress
http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml


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## Upstream

LCDSpazz said:


> I'm not very bright, so could someone explain this to me?
> 
> How are people STILL not ready for this shut-down after months of daily warnings supposed to BELIEVE THE NEW SHUT-DOWN DATE if we go and ditch the current one at the last minute like this?
> 
> ME: "Hey man, you better be ready for this digital conversion by June 30th, or you'll lose your signal."
> 
> JOE 12 PACK: "Yea, that's what they said about February 17th. It's just a bunch of scare nonsense. No worries man."


I can't imagine there are a lot of people who are not ready at all.

But there are probably a lot like me who are partially not ready.

I have cable/sat service to most of my TVs, so I don't have to do anything to them. But I have used OTA in the past when I've lost the sat signal due to rain fade. My primary TV is a Digital TV, so there is no problem getting reception there. But I still have some analog TVs which would be dark if the cable/sat signal went out. Plus I have one analog TV that is not hooked up to cable/sat at all (though it is rarely used).

Plus I have a DVR recorder with an analog tuner which I occassionally use (especially when I want to record an additional program after the tuners on my DVR are both in use).

So on Feb 18, I won't notice any problem. But there may be some day in June when I wish I had a converter box for one of my analog devices.


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## harsh

Cholly said:


> All TV and radio stations. Surely, you don't think they're using thousands of transistors to come up with ten to fifty kw. of output power! !rolling


I think you underestimate the capability of MOS FET and LDMOS FET power transistors.


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## harsh

reber1b said:


> Yeah, like changing the rules on daylight savings time switchover dates after most of the clock and clock-dependent gadget manufacturers programmed their products to switch over automatically. Now what used to be a no brainer, is a major hassle four times a year.


Proper modern clocks get their time reference from:

1. The Internet
2. GPS
3. Radio signal (my wristwatch tunes WWV)

Plus devices like video recorders, wireless phones and satellite radios which get their time reference from standard channels.

There's no excuse not to tie the time to an externally generated time base.


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## Doug Brott

bidger said:


> Ah, thank you James. I was looking for the "93%" quote and missed the "6.8% unready" part.
> 
> Full steam ahead I say. The odds of 100% preparedness or perfection is slim, but 93% is real damn close.


Not to mention that 7% will be 3.5% the day after the transition when folks realize .. oops I need a box (or new TV) and simply go get one. :shrug:


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## James Long

Cholly said:


> All TV and radio stations. Surely, you don't think they're using thousands of transistors to come up with ten to fifty kw. of output power! !rolling


Not all ... I've seen 10k transmitters that are all solid state transistor modules (each power module giving out 500w and adding them together in various ways).

But yes ... when you get to big power you talking at least one big tube. Both tubes failing is the reason why my local PBS analog went dead (and stayed dead) last March. I have found several stations milking their analogs along hoping they will last another now 39 days.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> Proper modern clocks get their time reference from:
> 
> 1. The Internet
> 2. GPS
> 3. Radio signal (my wristwatch tunes WWV)
> 
> Plus devices like video recorders, wireless phones and satellite radios which get their time reference from standard channels.
> 
> There's no excuse not to tie the time to an externally generated time base.


Time zones tell you what to do with that base. It wasn't easy or cheap to adjust all of the devices that relied on "First Sunday in April" to "Second Sunday in March". Especially embedded devices. Yes, they get a time reference from somewhere ... but defining the offsets based on the date is the challenge.


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## techdimwit

Imagine that. I guess folks haven't had much time to get this thing taken care of. Let's see, we've been warned about this for *five years*. No, of course, that can't be long enough.

Ridiculous to hold this up another minute past Feb. 17. You snooze, you lose. Americans need to grow up, quit whining and do what has to be done.

If the gov. ran out of coupons, the stores should drop the price accordingly. Looking at the thing, it couldn't have cost more than $5.00 to make so there'd be no big loss.

Delay is absolutely idiotic. If the congress goes along with this they are a lot stupider than I already think they are.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Yes, they get a time reference from somewhere ... but defining the offsets based on the date is the challenge.


WWV broadcasts a daylight savings flag. From there all you need to do is set your time zone and whether or not you participate in daylight savings.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> WWV broadcasts a daylight savings flag. From there all you need to do is set your time zone and whether or not you participate in daylight savings.


Not all methods broadcast a flag ... you belittle the effort taken by people across the country to adjust for the date change.

I expect that there are many devices still not aware of the change in dates of time change and there are devices that cannot be modified. I suppose the government should pay to upgrade and replace all of those devices?

Anyways ... that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the potential extension of analog television.


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## samhevener

HDMe said:


> More insanity.
> 
> I remember when the "original" date was going to be sometime in 2006, but everyone on the production side was woefully behind so they agreed to move it out to this year. If they move it again, I'd have no confidence in it ever becoming a mandate.
> 
> Companies have no excuse for not being ready by now period.
> 
> Consumers have a little excuse in that some folks in the rural areas might not have been getting the word until the latter part of last year because some stations have been much worse than others about informing their viewers of the impending change. Still, even with that, the cost of the converter is minimal compared to other costs of living.
> 
> Delaying simply because of the coupon debacle is insane. Firstly, the whole coupon business really should never have happened anyway. The fact that it has been mismanaged is just icing on the cake. Where people get an entitlement for a $40 converter box is beyond me. There is no entitlement to a TV, an antenna, a home, electricity (all things required to use with the converter box)... and anyone for whom that $40 would really dent their budget has far more pressing problems (like their next meal or medication) to worry about than TV.


I think the original shutdown was to be when 85% of the people in a given market own or purchase TVs with digital tuners. The shutdown was to be market by market. The big broadcasting companies discovered it costs extra money to operate 2 transmitters and had congress speed up the shutdown and come up with the idea of the government giving out coupons. The millions of dollars spent on these coupons was because the broadcasters rushed the shutdown. The original shutdown plan of 85% DTVs in each market would not have required any government coupon money. I just can't understand one thing. If you have a digital TV and receive digital transmissions, what difference does it make to you if the analog stations stay on the air. It seems to me it's a little like the old saying, "I have it and the heck with you." Unless, of course, you are a stockholder in a broadcasting conpany. The freed up frequencies auctions that have been awarded I'm sure the government had it's usual disclaimers for delays or even to cancel an award. I have yet to see a thread in this site that is from someone who DOESN'T have equipment to receive digital signals.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

It is just a big mistake to postpone the inevitable. People have had more than enough time to get moving with the transition. For the many of us that have already made the transition, it would be UNFAIR for us when the power goes out, our local stations will use the generator for analog signals only (like they're currently doing until the analog cut off date). They need to leave well enough alone. People have had plenty of time to make the transition and it has been heavily "advertised" for people to wake up!!!


----------



## jessshaun

samhevener said:


> I have yet to see a thread in this site that is from someone who DOESN'T have equipment to receive digital signals.


There is a difference in being able to receive and actually getting the signal.

For instance, I have the equipment to be able to receive digital signals with my directv receiver and TV.

BUT... 2 channels will not go full power digital until after the analog cutoff. I can't receive those channels (NBC and FOX). There are other stations doing the same thing. I say let them go full power and cutoff the analog on Feb 17th. Those that can't receive the channel will go out a buy a box, or find a way to buy a box. When your TV doesn't work, you will find a way to make it work. They will be calling the station, asking why they can't receive the signal.

Staff the stations with extra people to answer phones, and make the switch already!


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## HIPAR

I my (selfish) case they can forget about the DTV transition forever. I can receive poor but usually 'watchable' analog from Philadelphia and New York on VHF.. no UHF here. When they finally do the conversion, I expect to be wrecked at the base of the 'digital cliff' with no over the air TV.. 'disenfranchised' .. tyranny of the stupid .... 

Oh, I have equipment but no signals

--- CHAS


----------



## FTA Michael

I'm back from CES with no particular insight from there, but here's my guess. I think that this is purely a CYA move. Obama waves this red flag a little, but nothing, especially the date, actually changes. Then when some amount (small but overblown? larger than expected?) of stuff hits the fan on the transition date, the new president can point out that he warned everyone that it was going to happen.

Just relax, sit back, and watch the political show. It'll all work out.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Not switching off analog is problematic for at least a couple of reasons. Some stations are pulling double-duty so it is additional equipment to continue to maintain. They'd much rather be maintaining one set of stuff. Other stations haven't actually gone digital yet (except for testing) and are waiting to throw the switch so for them it is either-or because they couldn't afford to maintain two sets of stuff in the interim.

Additionally, some stations are set to go back to their analog frequency after the switch and other digitial stations get their "old" temporary digital frequency. It creates a cascade effect in many markets where they all have to shift or none can... so the burden of one station can become the burden of others.

Additionally, some channels aren't at full power on their digital channel because of their analog channel and FCC restrictions. So some customers will not get their digital yet until analog goes dark and the digital power can increase. So they may or may not even be getting analog but can't know if they will get digital until after the switch.

Ultimately, when they draw a line in the sand like this they need to just leave it there and go with it. If the only "real" problem is the coupon business, then that should be a non-factor in my opinion.


----------



## James Long

FTA Michael said:


> I think that this is purely a CYA move. Obama waves this red flag a little, but nothing, especially the date, actually changes.


Changing the date is a regulatory nightmare. Even the "nightlight" service is going to cost the government a lot of money to manage. We are in the last 90 days of analog where stations can discontinue without permission ... all they have to do is notify. Many stations have done so. The end is here.

Too many questions about what changing the date actually means ... is continuing analog permissive or a mandate? Will it be an extended "nightlight" service that lasts longer and allows regular programming? Will it prevent planned digital conversions? How can it be done in a way that is fair to all stations?

Extension is too cumbersome ... expect more money for coupons and not much else. A "second chance" program for re-issuing expiring coupons and a loan/funding increase to allow coupons to be issued before transition would be a good action. But no more changes to February 17th please.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

LCDSpazz said:


> I guess they'll need new PSA's now.
> 
> "You know how we've been hammering this Feb. 17th date for months and months now? Nevermind all that noise. But this next date we're going to give you - BELIEVE THAT ONE. DON'T DELAY OR YOU'LL LOSE YOUR SIGNAL IN JUNE. That's the real one. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T BELIEVE US?"


Love it...thanks!:lol:


----------



## ercjncprdtv

LCDSpazz said:


> I'm not very bright, so could someone explain this to me?
> 
> How are people STILL not ready for this shut-down after months of daily warnings supposed to BELIEVE THE NEW SHUT-DOWN DATE if we go and ditch the current one at the last minute like this?
> 
> ME: "Hey man, you better be ready for this digital conversion by June 30th, or you'll lose your signal."
> 
> JOE 12 PACK: "Yea, that's what they said about February 17th. It's just a bunch of scare nonsense. No worries man."


E X A C T L Y !!!!!!! The other 7% or 9% or whatever will _never_ do it now!


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## SParker

scooper said:


> I've emailed all of my Congress critters urging do not delay.
> 
> Info to contact members of Congress
> http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml


Thanks I just did the same.


----------



## Mark Holtz

From SF Gate/AP:

*FCC chairman: DTV delay could cause confusion*


> Postponing the turnoff of analog TV broadcasts beyond the scheduled date, Feb. 17, could confuse consumers, the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission warned Saturday.
> 
> (Text deleted)
> 
> In an interview at the International Consumer Electronics Show here, FCC chairman Kevin Martin said it's important to make sure that the converter box subsidy program gets back on track, but that doesn't mean delaying the analog turnoff is necessary.


FULL ARTICLE HERE

Oh great, this practically means that there will be a delay.


----------



## Mark Holtz

From BetaNews:

*The DTV launch is a shambles, say FCC commissioners*


> The call earlier this week by President-Elect Obama's transition team to perhaps delay next month's DTV switch didn't just "come up" at Saturday's "2009 Regulatory Outlook" panel at CES. It electrified it.
> 
> Jonathan Adelstein and Robert McDowell, both commissioners at the Federal Communications Commission, have seen trouble coming for a very long time. Adelstein has served at the FCC since 2002, and McDowell began his first term in 2006.
> 
> Remember the coordinated governmental effort to fix and work around potential Y2K problems? That tech initiative, like the DTV transition, involved multiple agencies. And that's where the coordination comparison ends. Where the Y2K effort had top-down supervision from the White House, various guidelines to action, and synchronized effort, this has...well, at least it's only television, not a hurricane aimed at a major US city.


FULL ARTICLE HERE


----------



## James Long

> ... well, at least it's only television, not a hurricane aimed at a major US city.


But it is! If you read the complaints asking for the 'nightlight' service and this delay in analog shut off they treat it like a major catastrophic event that they are trying to permit. Over 7 million people, mostly the poor and elderly will LOSE their TV service on February 18th because the are not ready to receive digital service.

To read the dire warnings one should expect to see helicopter pictures of people on rooftops again ... only this time they will be adjusting their antennas trying to get a signal - any signal. 

BTW: Some of those 7 million people will be ready. With 10 million converter coupons outstanding perhaps many already have coupons in hand or in the mail. And there will be some television out there - low power and translator stations (still analog) or nightlight stations telling them where to get a converter box.


----------



## SParker

I'm sure the NAB will fight any extension of the deadline because the stations are looking forward to cutting their electric bills.


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## Mark Holtz

Here is what I find interesting. When I read the comments in relation to these stories, inevitably, you come across a poster who requested a coupon at the beginning of the program, received the coupons, and not realize that you had 90 days to use it. Oh no, it was expired and now there is a wait list. Apparently, the 90-days is in such teeny-tiny print.


----------



## samhevener

James Long said:


> Changing the date is a regulatory nightmare. Even the "nightlight" service is going to cost the government a lot of money to manage. We are in the last 90 days of analog where stations can discontinue without permission ... all they have to do is notify. Many stations have done so. The end is here.
> 
> Too many questions about what changing the date actually means ... is continuing analog permissive or a mandate? Will it be an extended "nightlight" service that lasts longer and allows regular programming? Will it prevent planned digital conversions? How can it be done in a way that is fair to all stations?
> 
> Extension is too cumbersome ... expect more money for coupons and not much else. A "second chance" program for re-issuing expiring coupons and a loan/funding increase to allow coupons to be issued before transition would be a good action. But no more changes to February 17th please.


 I agree, it is a big problem but I still say it is the broadcasters making. What was wrong with the original plan of the shutdown when 85% of the people in a given market purchase or own TVs with digital tuners? No coupon program would have been required. The mess we have now wouldn't be happening. The broadcasters did it to themselves because of greed.


----------



## txtommy

Mark Holtz said:


> Here is what I find interesting. When I read the comments in relation to these stories, inevitably, you come across a poster who requested a coupon at the beginning of the program, received the coupons, and not realize that you had 90 days to use it. Oh no, it was expired and now there is a wait list. Apparently, the 90-days is in such teeny-tiny print.


In bold print on the application:

*IMPORTANT: Coupons will expire within 90 days of the date they are mailed.*

I have heard it stated over and over on tv that there is a 90 day limit on the coupons. Since I have all digital tv's already I am not interested in this program but even so I have been unable to ignore the warnings. I have heard the warnings daily that the deadline is Feb 17. There have been numerous heavily advertised tests to determine if you need a box by all the local stations. If someone with an analog tv has been able to ignore the warnings and unavoidable tests, it is more likely because of procrastination than anything else. If the date is extended, most of the same people will wait for the new date before deciding to take action.

Every April 15 there is a line outside the Post Office just before midnight. Are these people who failed to receive warning that there was a deadline for filing taxes? If so we should also extend that date?

When the 17th comes, the procrastinators will suddenly realize the urgency and do something about it. Those who for whatever reason failed to see the messages will suddenly realize that something is wrong and either call a friend, neighbor or tv station to have the situation explained to them. They will then go buy a box or apply for a coupon.


----------



## crrscott

Advertise that the price of the DTV boxes go up on March 1st to $99.99 a piece. See how many people grab up a $49 box between now and then


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## Davenlr

Heh Heh, thats the best idea Ive heard all week.


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## scooper

I could dig it . Better - advertise that the price goes up on Febuary 18. It would get them off their chairs and start looking for them, anyway.


----------



## jimmyv2000

txtommy said:


> In bold print on the application:
> 
> *IMPORTANT: Coupons will expire within 90 days of the date they are mailed.*
> 
> Every April 15 there is a line outside the Post Office just before midnight. Are these people who failed to receive warning that there was a deadline for filing taxes? If so we should also extend that date?
> 
> When the 17th comes, the procrastinators will suddenly realize the urgency and do something about it. Those who for whatever reason failed to see the messages will suddenly realize that something is wrong and either call a friend, neighbor or tv station to have the situation explained to them. They will then go buy a box or apply for a coupon.


On the 18th of FEB people will be at the stores *Like a bunch of SAVAGES* looking to get their boxes


----------



## James Long

samhevener said:


> I agree, it is a big problem but I still say it is the broadcasters making. What was wrong with the original plan of the shutdown when 85% of the people in a given market purchase or own TVs with digital tuners? No coupon program would have been required. The mess we have now wouldn't be happening. The broadcasters did it to themselves because of greed.


The problem with 85% is that there are neighboring markets. For example, one of the stations in Fort Wayne, IN, is relying on a station in Jackson, MI, to turn off their analog so the Fort Wayne station can go full power digital. They are broadcasting at 317 kW ERP today and will broadcast at 1000 kW ERP on February 18th.

The second problem with 85% is that we're at 93% nationally and people are still complaining that it isn't enough. If markets flipped at 85% you would have even more people in that market left without TV. Plus with no hard deadline there is no incentive to reach that goal and free up the spectrum for the new public safety and other uses.

There has to be a national line ... get r done.

As far as the coupon program perhaps some money could have been saved if the government mailed out boxes they purchased (in bulk for less than $40 each) instead of coupons. But who's boxes?


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> I agree, it is a big problem *but I still say it is the broadcasters making*. What was wrong with the original plan of the shutdown when 85% of the people in a given market purchase or own TVs with digital tuners? No coupon program would have been required. The mess we have now wouldn't be happening. The broadcasters did it to themselves because of greed.


The BROADCASTERS fault?

You are either kidding or misinformed.

Do you think that OTA broadcasters wanted the very expensive (with no government funding, rebate, write-off, or bailout) forced transition to digital?

Dude...it was CONGRESS that wanted the money from the 700MHz auction and changed rules to get it sooner.


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## the_batman

Sad, Sad, Sad...After all this time. Years of waiting for a format and then for a date and then people still complain. If TV was that important then they should have done something about it. If TV isn't that important then good for them. There are procrastinators and always will be, no matter where the date is moved to.

P.S. How many people do you know that rely fully on OTA and don't have a TV with a digital tuner? I know of NONE.


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## Kansas Zephyr

the_batman said:


> P.S. How many people do you know that rely fully on OTA and dont't have a TV with a digital tuner? I know of NONE.


Don't confuse a TV set with "numbers on a keypad", instead of a tuning dial, as an ATSC tuner digital TV.

There are plenty of (or should I say mostly?) "digital" NTSC analog tuner TVs out there.


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## James Long

All my friends and relatives have cable, satellite or OTA digital (ATSC) tuners.

Anyone who doesn't has been removed from my friend list.


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## Retro

Many people say the poor and the elderly will be the most affected, but from what i've seen the so-called poor people make sure they have one thing and that is cable or satellite!:eek2: It's probably more of the elderly if anything and those who have been satisfied with 4-5 channels all their life..

That being said, those people who haven't made any effort to get a new TV or converter box by now, likely won't anytime soon because you can't help those who don't want to help themselves... We're talking about a $40 box, a one time cost... Don't delay the switch, just make sure the coupons and the funding is there for up to 90 days after switch and deal with then..


----------



## ercjncprdtv

Kansas Zephyr said:


> The BROADCASTERS fault?
> 
> You are either kidding or misinformed.
> 
> Do you think that OTA broadcasters wanted the very expensive (with no government funding, rebate, write-off, or bailout) forced transition to digital?
> 
> Dude...it was CONGRESS that wanted the money from the 700MHz auction and changed rules to get it sooner.


The broadcasters were talking about digital/HDTV 10 or more years ago, as a way to recapture viewers who were already wandering off to cable. Can't blame government for this one, sorry! BTW, KTLA-DT Los Angeles observed it's 10th anniversary last October. They were first on the west coast.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

Retro said:


> Many people say the poor and the elderly will be the most affected, but from what i've seen the so-called poor people make sure they have one thing and that is cable or satellite!:eek2: It's probably more of the elderly if anything and those who have been satisfied with 4-5 channels all their life..
> 
> That being said, those people who haven't made any effort to get a new TV or converter box by now, likely won't anytime soon because you can't help those who don't want to help themselves... We're talking about a $40 box, a one time cost... Don't delay the switch, just make sure the coupons and the funding is there for up to 90 days after switch and deal with then..


I live in a 55+ mobile home park where the average age is around 70 or so. I would say that 75% of the rooftops in the park have a sat dish.


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## Mark Holtz

Here we go. Today at noon (local time) in Hawaii is the "Big Switch". That's when the analog transmitters get turned off and the State of Hawaii goes all digital.

We'll see what happens. They can't nightlight this because of where the transmitters are located. They had to move up one month so that they can dismantle the transmitters prior to a endangered bird's nesting season.


----------



## skyboysea

Retro said:


> It's probably more of the elderly if anything and those who have been satisfied with 4-5 channels all their life..


My elderly mother in law who, because of a stroke, has a very hard time understanding new things got the message that something needed to be done so she can continue to watch tv. If the message got through her many months ago, I believe there is no excuse for other people.


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## scooper

skyboysea said:


> My elderly mother in law who, because of a stroke, has a very hard time understanding new things got the message that something needed to be done so she can continue to watch tv. If the message got through her many months ago, I believe there is no excuse for other people.


And you were the good son-in-law and made sure she is ready, right ?

I did the same for my not-so-infirmed mother-in-law - since I knew what little TV she did watch was OTA, I made sure that right up front, when the coupon program was starting up, that she knew exactly what she needed to do. Conversely, my mother is on cable, and when she asked about needing a coupon box, I told her that she did not need one, that her cable company should take care of their subscribers.

This is what people should be doing.


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## BenJF3

Mark Holtz said:


> One other thing. The February 17th transition only affects FULL-POWER stations. Low-power stations will still be on the air for a while.


Going through this thread, I want to mention what some are doing with LP signals. In my market, there is only one LP station. I got talking with the station manager to ask what was going to become of it because they were facing a virtually total loss of viewership. I explained that if everyone get a digital converter (sans analog passthrough) they most likely would stop seeing this channel altogether as many even with an analog passthrough won't bother to switch back and forth. I suggested a simple solution. Since they own a full power affiliate and operate another, why not add the LP signal as a digital subchannel. So, this is being worked on. It was a good compromise because it keeps that network programming available. There is plenty of space in the spectrum that this could have been done in virtually all markets. Of course the subchannel is going to be SD, but the fact is that hardly any (if any) LP stations are broadcasting HD anyway.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

ercjncprdtv said:


> The broadcasters were talking about digital/HDTV 10 or more years ago, as a way to recapture viewers who were already wandering off to cable. *Can't blame government for this one, sorry!* BTW, KTLA-DT Los Angeles observed it's 10th anniversary last October. They were first on the west coast.


Sorry! Yes, you can.

The analog cut-off was changed from the original plan, based on the percentage of homes in a market capable of receiving OTA digital (minimizing the confusion, and need for converter boxes, etc.), to the hard date by Congress to get the money now.

If the deadline were later, as digital and HD equipment becomes less expensive, local stations would feel less of a financial pinch to transition.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's too late to stop now. The dominoes are falling, and stopping them would be huge issue. Plus there are only an estimated 7% of households that still need to get a converter box. A 93% success rate is pretty darn impressive, considering the scope of what's happening.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Sorry! Yes, you can.
> 
> The analog cut-off was changed from the original plan, based on the percentage of homes in a market capable of receiving OTA digital (minimizing the confusion, and need for converter boxes, etc.), to the hard date by Congress to get the money now.


Well... sorta. The date also shifted a couple years from 2006 to 2009. And the requirement to only be 85% was dropped in favor of helping people out and trying to get to above 95%.

So... sounds to me like the government helped us on that aspect. (Now, would have been nice if the coupons would last more than 90 days, they were more prepared for more coupons, etc....)

Cheers,
Tom


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## BenJF3

Actually one main reasons for the delay was the fact that there was no real supply of converter boxes for the market at the time. There just wasn't going to be enough to meet demand and some of the early boxes which are still on the market are total garbage like the Magnavox. The fact that WalMart carries that box in and of itself is a huge problem.


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## Tom Robertson

Part of the "why weren't there converter boxes" is there wasn't a hard date in each area. Now there is, so manufacturers had a target to sell into.


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## Kansas Zephyr

Tom Robertson said:


> Well... sorta. The date also shifted a couple years from 2006 to 2009. And the requirement to only be 85% was dropped in favor of helping people out and trying to get to above 95%.


The original 85% rule was that households be able to directly receive digital OTA (thinking that the NTSC/ATSC tuners would have been standard long before they needed regulation to mandate it). Not, the current thinking that includes those that can't use digital OTA, but have cable or satellite to provide analog to them.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Kansas Zephyr said:


> The original 85% rule was that households be able to directly receive digital OTA (thinking that the NTSC/ATSC tuners would have been standard long before they needed regulation to mandate it). Not, the current thinking that includes those that can't use digital OTA, but have cable or satellite to provide analog to them.


As I recall, there was some ambiguity in the wording of the 85% rule that lead to the shift in thinking.

Anyway, we're here, it will be done anon, and we'll be talking about the next big thing.


----------



## James Long

Kansas Zephyr said:


> If the deadline were later, as digital and HD equipment becomes less expensive, local stations would feel less of a financial pinch to transition.


Too many chickens and eggs. Do you really think we would be at 93% today if it wasn't for the past year of high pressure and a HARD guaranteed deadline?

Stations would be putting off converting due to lack of viewership ... viewers would be putting off converting due to lack of stations to view ... the chickens and the eggs would follow each other into infinity. Some stations would be proactive and push their way into digital but not all.

Waiting for the market would be like the conversion to HD radio or the metric system. No hard deadline means no conversion. HD radio is a toy and the metric system is still years away from being a US followed standard. If you want to get something done you set a date and do your best to meet it.



Tom Robertson said:


> Part of the "why weren't there converter boxes" is there wasn't a hard date in each area. Now there is, so manufacturers had a target to sell into.


The hard date that manufacturers MISSED was the beginning of sales of converter boxes. The day the first coupon was mailed the boxes needed to be in the stores. I was one of those good people who got my coupons early (first day signup) and I ended up settling for what was available the day before the coupons expired because many manufacturers didn't have a product in the marketplace.

Hopefully manufacturers are set up to sell through at least April (preferably longer) and have not assumed that box sales will end on February 18th.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Tom Robertson said:


> Anyway, we're here, it will be done anon, and we'll be talking about the next big thing.


+1

The deadline is looming...let's just get it over with! 

Then we can kill any remaining bugs.


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## Msguy

The next thing all stations need to start working on is getting everything on there channels shows, local programming, local news etc converted to HD. People everywhere in the United States have had more than enough Ample Time to either A. Get a Converter Box for their current Sets or B. Buy a new and better Digital HD Television set with a Digital Tuner. February 17th 2009 won't be put off this time. The Digital Switchover is a go.


----------



## Sirshagg

Msguy said:


> February 17th 2009 won't be put off this time. The Digital Switchover is a go.


You are apparently not familiar with the U.S. Congress. :lol:
I really hope it's not delayed but I wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## BenJF3

Truth is it really won't affect me either way. Even if I go to an OTA option everything here is digital. The people who REALLY want this left alone are the local station engineers (at least the one I know). They are prepped and ready to go and one station is all set to move it's transmitter site, but delaying the transition will totally screw up their schedule. Bottom line: they just want it done and over with!


----------



## Sirshagg

I can't say that it will really affect me either but...

It's sort of like the election last year - I JUST WANT TO STOP HEARING ABOUT IT ALREADY!


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## Kansas Zephyr

Msguy said:


> The next thing all stations need to start working on is getting everything on there channels shows, local programming, local news etc converted to HD.


The enormous cost currently involved with a 100% HD facility are so staggering that the medium and smaller markets, plus stations owned by heavily leveraged companies, may take a decade, or longer, for all of the local programming to be 100% HD.


----------



## scooper

Kansas Zephyr said:


> The enormous cost currently involved with a 100% HD facility are so staggering that the medium and smaller markets, plus stations owned by heavily leveraged companies, may take a decade, or longer, for all of the local programming to be 100% HD.


Not only for smaller markets, but smaller stations in larger markets.

Our local NBC does pass on network HDTV, but just about everything else looks to be upconverted SDTV - local news, syndicated, national news, commercials, etc.

Even on our big HDTV leaders (that do most things in HDTV), some of those issues exist - especially commercials.

And it costs a LARGE fortune to have a completely HD station / facilities.


----------



## lwilli201

Congress will have to get together :lol: and pass legislation to extend the cut off date. Instead of that, just authorize more money to the BOX fund now. That will have to be done eventually. Delay would be a bad move IMO.


----------



## James Long

Three bills showing up as filed so far:
S.25 : A bill to ensure access to basic broadcast television after the Digital Television Transition, and for other purposes.
Sen Sanders, Bernard [VT] (introduced 1/7/2009)
Requesting $80 coupons for households to buy and install converters and antennas. ($600 million total)
Also REQUIRING each "multichannel video programming distributor" to provide locals to non-customers.

H.R.299 : To provide American consumers information about the broadcast television transition from an analog to a digital format, and to provide additional funds for the converter box coupon program under the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005.
Rep Engel, Eliot L. [NY-17] (introduced 1/8/2009)
A labeling requirement that is already in effect and $200,000 more for coupons.

H.R.339 : To extend the expiration date of coupons issued under the digital television converter box program.
Rep Platts, Todd Russell [PA-19] (introduced 1/8/2009) 
"All coupons issued under this section shall expire at the close of March 31, 2009."

Nothing found actually changing the date.


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## GaryPotter

The only way I'd support an extension is if they also revoke that idiotic E/I requirement for stations. Probably not going to happen though.


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## kevinwmsn

I hope they don't extend it. The local NBC station(WPMI 15) has a damaged transmitter(digital 47) on their digital transmitter since Hurricane Ivan(2004) and they aren't going to fix it. It causes audio hiccups, breakups, and hardest for people to get a good signal from. They are going back to their analog frequency and their current good transmitter. Another reason not to do the conversion during the summer- Summer is hurricane season... we don't need people trying to figure out why their TV don't work when they need hurricane info while their satellite and cable is out.


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## Mark Holtz

Hawaii went all digital today. There are no reports of rioting in the street, no sob stories, just this:

From Hawaii Star-Bulletin:

*An unscheduled break from PBS for TV viewers*


> A shipping error will prevent PBS Hawaii viewers from Hilo to South Point from seeing the station for an undetermined length of time.
> 
> Hawaii's rural areas often get short shrift, and the DTV transition from analog to digital television broadcasts is proving no exception.
> 
> It is one of several stations that may go missing from view in some Hawaii communities after noon today, though PBS Hawaii has an additional problem.
> 
> Equipment PBS Hawaii was awaiting, to make sure all Big Island residents could continue to see its programming post-transition, has not only not arrived from the mainland, it has apparently gotten lost, according to Linda Brock, vice president of programming and community relations.


FULL ARTICLE HERE


----------



## samhevener

Both the senate and house may be voting on extending the new shutdown date of June 12. http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/162241-Rockefeller_s_New_DTV_Transition_Date_June_12.php


----------



## LCDSpazz

It's all but certain the new shutdown date will be moved to June. There is overwhelming support to move it now. The only ones with any authority who still want the Feb 17th date kept will be gone by this time next week. The only real question now is will the new June date be delayed 3 months from now.


----------



## SParker

Blah this delay is moronic, but what should we expect. They are politicians.


----------



## BenJF3

Ridiculous! Why do they feel that everyone needs their hand held with this?

Are there going to be some issues? Sure, but deal with them at the time. The bottom line is that there is _NEVER_ going to be a "good" time for this transition in the eyes of some. I think the stations that are ready should just cut their analog as scheduled. Those that wake up without TV will then have to make the needed adjustments to fix the problem.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Here's a real world example for how a delay just screws things up.

I talked to the Chief Engineer at KAKE in Wichita, KS.

Since they are moving their digital signal from channel 21 back to channel 10 at the end of analog, they've taken half of the KAKE-TV channel 10 analog transmitter off-line to be modified for digital. So, they are only broadcasting analog at half-power, reducing their coverage area. It will remain that way until 2/18, or whenever Congress finally decides.

KAKE-DT was operating at 850kW on channel 21. Well...that transmitter was moved to a different station, within the company, that will remain on channel 17 after the transition. So, they've been using a temp transmitter, since 10/9/08 with an ERP of 89.5kW, reducing their digital coverage area.

The bottom line, until 2/18/09 (or whatever future date may be foisted upon the land) both digital and analog OTA users suffer.

I'm fairly sure this isn't the only "domino syndrome" case in the US either.

If any Congressional Pages surf these sites, please make sure your boss is fully informed before doing something that only "feels right".

By all means fund the coupon program...but leave the end of full-power analog date alone, please.


----------



## Sirshagg

Don't they have more important things to worry about?

What the worst that could happen... People discover they need to buy a new tv. Wouldn;t this help the economy?


----------



## fluffybear

LCDSpazz said:


> The only real question now is will the new June date be delayed 3 months from now.


I think we all know the answer to the answer to this?

OF COURSE!!

My prediction is 2011.


----------



## fluffybear

Sirshagg said:


> Don't they have more important things to worry about?
> 
> What the worst that could happen... People discover they need to buy a new tv. Wouldn;t this help the economy?


They don't even have to buy a TV, just a lousy converter box.


----------



## BenJF3

While I'm all for leaving this alone and letting it run it's course, I feel maybe a fair compromise would be the following:

I think stations should just start going offline as scheduled using the the analog channel as their "nightlight" for 1 month after the transition. The is more than enough time for even the most clueless viewer to figure out that something has to be done. They can switch over and leave a placard up on the analog channel saying "The Digital Transition has occurred. If you see this message you need a converter box. Our digital signal can now be found on channel ___."

If they still don't get it at that point, then they never will!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Sirshagg said:


> Don't they have more important things to worry about?
> 
> What the worst that could happen... People discover they need to buy a new tv. Wouldn;t this help the economy?


Either:

A. Need to buy new TV or converter = Plus for the economy

or

B. Will no longer be able to feed the panic frenzied rumor mill that helps spiral the economy downward

Win-win!


----------



## scooper

Latest word - full speed ahead on scheduled date !

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090116/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition_7


----------



## Sirshagg

scooper said:


> Latest word - full speed ahead on scheduled date !
> 
> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090116/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition_7


YES!!!
Hopefully they can keep it up.


----------



## tcusta00

scooper said:


> Latest word - full speed ahead on scheduled date !
> 
> http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090116/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition_7


:joy::balloons::icon_da:


----------



## James Long

LCDSpazz said:


> It's all but certain the new shutdown date will be moved to June.


All but certain? Has ANY senator or representative actually filled a bill to change the date? My check yesterday found none.

There is a process to changing the _*LAW*_ that _*REQUIRES*_ the FCC to end full power analog broadcasts by February 18th. The process was followed to allow for "Analog Nightlight" service.

Not to go all Schoolhouse Rock on you ... but you have to follow the process.


----------



## LCDSpazz

James Long said:


> All but certain? Has ANY senator or representative actually filled a bill to change the date? My check yesterday found none.
> 
> There is a process to changing the _*LAW*_ that _*REQUIRES*_ the FCC to end full power analog broadcasts by February 18th. The process was followed to allow for "Analog Nightlight" service.
> 
> Not to go all Schoolhouse Rock on you ... but you have to follow the process.


Jay Rockefeller's bill has the June date as far as I know. I think Waxman from CA (big nostrils guy) has one as well. Next week this issue will go to an up or down vote (and it will, there's no way republicans are going to actually filibuster) and it should have the votes to pass. Barring some major shake-up, pushing back the date looks inevitable.


----------



## scooper

LCDSpazz said:


> Jay Rockefeller's bill has the June date as far as I know. I think Waxman from CA (big nostrils guy) has one as well. Next week this issue will go to an up or down vote (and it will, there's no way republicans are going to actually filibuster) and it should have the votes to pass. Barring some major shake-up, pushing back the date looks inevitable.


The republicans voted it down this week. I wouldn't call it "all but certain" that its going to pass.


----------



## James Long

LCDSpazz said:


> Jay Rockefeller's bill has the June date as far as I know. Next week this issue will go to an up or down vote (and it will, there's no way republicans are going to actually filibuster) and it should have the votes to pass. Barring some major shake-up, pushing back the date looks inevitable.


Please post a link to the actual legislation or a source that identifies the actual legislation.

There is a lot of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) on this matter. At the moment all the articles seem to refer to something that does not yet exist.

No bill, no law, no change.


----------



## LCDSpazz

James Long said:


> Please post a link to the actual legislation or a source that identifies the actual legislation.
> 
> There is a lot of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) on this matter. At the moment all the articles seem to refer to something that does not yet exist.
> 
> No bill, no law, no change.


http://rockefeller.senate.gov/press/record.cfm?id=306824&

I don't have the actual bill number, but unless he's making stuff up or somebody hacked his senate website, this is real.

"This is why today I have introduced a bill to delay the date of the DTV transition to June 12, 2009."

He tried to fast-track it via unanimous consent, but republicans blocked that today.


----------



## scooper

LCDSpazz said:


> http://rockefeller.senate.gov/press/record.cfm?id=306824&
> 
> I don't have the actual bill number, but unless he's making stuff up or somebody hacked his senate website, this is real.
> 
> "This is why today I have introduced a bill to delay the date of the DTV transition to June 12, 2009."
> 
> He tried to fast-track it via unanimous consent, but republicans blocked that today.


It should be blocked, and it should be held up in committee until Feb 18th. IMO .

If he thinks more funds for the coupon program - I don't have a problem with that. But NO! on delaying the date.


----------



## James Long

LCDSpazz said:


> I don't have the actual bill number, but unless he's making stuff up or somebody hacked his senate website, this is real.
> 
> "This is why today I have introduced a bill to delay the date of the DTV transition to June 12, 2009."
> 
> He tried to fast-track it via unanimous consent, but republicans blocked that today.


The senate record from January 15th ... the day the bill was allegedly introduced:

"Twenty-three bills and one resolution were introduced, as follows: S. 251-273"
By Mrs. HUTCHISON (for herself and Mr. DEMINT):
S. 251. A bill to amend the Communications Act of 1934 to permit targeted interference with mobile radio services within prison facilities; to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation.

By Mr. AKAKA (for himself, Mr. DURBIN, and Mrs. MURRAY):
S. 252. A bill to amend title 38, United States Code, to enhance the capacity of the Department of Veterans Affairs to recruit and retain nurses and other critical health-care professionals, to improve the provision of health care veterans, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Veterans' Affairs.

By Mr. ISAKSON (for himself, Mr. CHAMBLISS, and Mr. CORKER):
S. 253. A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to expand the application of the homebuyer credit, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Finance.

By Mrs. LINCOLN (for herself, Ms. SNOWE, and Mr. ISAKSON):
S. 254. A bill to amend title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide for the coverage of home infusion therapy under the Medicare Program; to the Committee on Finance.

By Mr. WHITEHOUSE (for himself and Mr. DURBIN):
S. 255. A bill to amend the Truth in Lending Act to empower the States to set the maximum annual percentage rates applicable to consumer credit transactions, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs.

By Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself, Mr. KYL, Mr. REID, Mr. DURBIN, Mr. MCCONNELL, Mr. BINGAMAN, Mr. ENSIGN, Mr. SCHUMER, Mr. INHOFE, Mrs. MCCASKILL, Mr. KERRY, Mr. BAYH, Mr. ALEXANDER, Mr. GRASSLEY, Mr. NELSON of Florida, Mr. JOHNSON, and Ms. CANTWELL):
S. 256. A bill to enhance the ability to combat methamphetamine; to the Committee on the Judiciary.

By Mr. WHITEHOUSE (for himself and Mr. DURBIN):
S. 257. A bill to amend title 11, United States Code, to disallow certain claims resulting from high cost credit debts, and for other purposes; to the Committee on the Judiciary.

By Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself, Mr. GRASSLEY, and Mr. BAYH):
S. 258. A bill to amend the Controlled Substances Act to provide enhanced penalties for marketing controlled substances to minors; to the Committee on the Judiciary.

By Mr. BOND (for himself, Mr. DODD, Mr. CASEY, Mr. INOUYE, Mr. LIEBERMAN, Mr. AKAKA, Ms. COLLINS, Mrs. MCCASKILL, and Mr. TESTER):
S. 259. A bill to establish a grant program to provide vision care to children, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.

By Mr. DORGAN (for himself, Ms. MIKULSKI, Mr. FEINGOLD, Mr. DURBIN, Mr. JOHNSON, Mr. BROWN, Mr. LEAHY, Mr. HARKIN, Mr. KENNEDY, Mr. WHITEHOUSE, Mr. KOHL, Ms. STABENOW, and Mrs. FEINSTEIN):
S. 260. A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide for the taxation of income of controlled foreign corporations attributable to imported property; to the Committee on Finance.

By Mr. GRAHAM (for himself, Mr. ENSIGN, and Mr. MARTINEZ):
S. 261. A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to restore the deduction for the travel expenses of a taxpayer's spouse who accompanies the taxpayer on business travel; to the Committee on Finance.

By Mr. CASEY:
S. 262. A bill to improve and enhance the operations of the reserve components of the Armed Forces, to improve mobilization and demobilization processes for members of the reserve components of the Armed Forces, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Armed Services.

By Mr. CASEY (for himself and Mr. KENNEDY):
S. 263. A bill to amend title 38, United States Code, to improve the enforcement of the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act of 1994, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Veterans' Affairs .

By Ms. STABENOW:
S. 264. A bill to amend title XIX of the Social Security Act to encourage the use of certified health information technology by providers in the Medicaid program and the Children's Health Insurance Program, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Finance.

By Mrs. McCaskill (for herself and Mr. CORKER):
S. 265. A bill to prohibit the awarding of a contract or grant in excess of the simplified acquisition threshold unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee has no seriously delinquent tax debts, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

By Mr. NELSON of Florida (for himself, Ms. COLLINS, Mr. WHITEHOUSE, Mr. KOHL, Mr. KERRY, Mr. JOHNSON, and Mrs. BOXER):
S. 266. A bill to amend title XVIII of the Social Security Act to reduce the coverage gap in prescription drug coverage under part D of such title based on savings to the Medicare program resulting from the negotiation of prescription drug prices; to the Committee on Finance.

By Mrs. MURRAY (for herself and Ms. STABENOW):
S. 267. A bill to provide funding for summer and year-round youth jobs and training programs; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.

By Mrs. MURRAY (for herself and Ms. STABENOW):
S. 268. A bill to provide funding for a Green Job Corps program, YouthBuild Build Green Grants, and Green-Collar Youth Opportunity Grants, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.

By Mrs. MURRAY (for herself, Mr. BROWN, and Ms. STABENOW):
S. 269. A bill to provide funding for unemployment and training activities for dislocated workers and adults, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.

By Mr. CASEY (for himself and Mr. NELSON of Nebraska):
S. 270. A bill to provide for programs that reduce the need for abortion, help women bear healthy children, and support new parents; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.

By Ms. CANTWELL (for herself, Mr. HATCH, Mr. KERRY, Mr. ALEXANDER, Ms. STABENOW, and Mr. NELSON of Florida):
S. 271. A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide incentives to accelerate the production and adoption of plug-in electric vehicles and related component parts; to the Committee on Finance.

By Mr. HARKIN:
S. 272. A bill to amend the Commodity Exchange Act to ensure that all agreements, contracts, and transactions with respect to commodities are carried out on a regulated exchange, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry.

By Mr. REID (for Mr. BROWN (for himself and Mr. VOINOVICH)):
S. 273. A bill to require the designation of the federally occupied building located at McKinley Avenue and Third Street, S.W., Canton, Ohio, as the ``Ralph Regula Federal Office Building and Courthouse''; considered and passed. ​Perhaps it REALLY was introduced on Friday? So far it is all PR and no proof. A rough start to getting a law passed.

Certainly not a "gaining momentum" or "sure to pass" situation.


----------



## SatliteHD

I am just going to say I hope Analog dies in Feb. Please! Enough said.


----------



## LCDSpazz

James Long said:


> The senate record from January 15th ... the day the bill was allegedly introduced:
> 
> "Twenty-three bills and one resolution were introduced, as follows: S. 251-273"
> By Mrs. HUTCHISON (for herself and Mr. DEMINT):
> S. 251. A bill to amend the Communications Act of 1934 to permit targeted interference with mobile radio services within prison facilities; to the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation.
> 
> By Mr. AKAKA (for himself, Mr. DURBIN, and Mrs. MURRAY):
> S. 252. A bill to amend title 38, United States Code, to enhance the capacity of the Department of Veterans Affairs to recruit and retain nurses and other critical health-care professionals, to improve the provision of health care veterans, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Veterans' Affairs.
> 
> By Mr. ISAKSON (for himself, Mr. CHAMBLISS, and Mr. CORKER):
> S. 253. A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to expand the application of the homebuyer credit, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Finance.
> 
> By Mrs. LINCOLN (for herself, Ms. SNOWE, and Mr. ISAKSON):
> S. 254. A bill to amend title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide for the coverage of home infusion therapy under the Medicare Program; to the Committee on Finance.
> 
> By Mr. WHITEHOUSE (for himself and Mr. DURBIN):
> S. 255. A bill to amend the Truth in Lending Act to empower the States to set the maximum annual percentage rates applicable to consumer credit transactions, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs.
> 
> By Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself, Mr. KYL, Mr. REID, Mr. DURBIN, Mr. MCCONNELL, Mr. BINGAMAN, Mr. ENSIGN, Mr. SCHUMER, Mr. INHOFE, Mrs. MCCASKILL, Mr. KERRY, Mr. BAYH, Mr. ALEXANDER, Mr. GRASSLEY, Mr. NELSON of Florida, Mr. JOHNSON, and Ms. CANTWELL):
> S. 256. A bill to enhance the ability to combat methamphetamine; to the Committee on the Judiciary.
> 
> By Mr. WHITEHOUSE (for himself and Mr. DURBIN):
> S. 257. A bill to amend title 11, United States Code, to disallow certain claims resulting from high cost credit debts, and for other purposes; to the Committee on the Judiciary.
> 
> By Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself, Mr. GRASSLEY, and Mr. BAYH):
> S. 258. A bill to amend the Controlled Substances Act to provide enhanced penalties for marketing controlled substances to minors; to the Committee on the Judiciary.
> 
> By Mr. BOND (for himself, Mr. DODD, Mr. CASEY, Mr. INOUYE, Mr. LIEBERMAN, Mr. AKAKA, Ms. COLLINS, Mrs. MCCASKILL, and Mr. TESTER):
> S. 259. A bill to establish a grant program to provide vision care to children, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.
> 
> By Mr. DORGAN (for himself, Ms. MIKULSKI, Mr. FEINGOLD, Mr. DURBIN, Mr. JOHNSON, Mr. BROWN, Mr. LEAHY, Mr. HARKIN, Mr. KENNEDY, Mr. WHITEHOUSE, Mr. KOHL, Ms. STABENOW, and Mrs. FEINSTEIN):
> S. 260. A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide for the taxation of income of controlled foreign corporations attributable to imported property; to the Committee on Finance.
> 
> By Mr. GRAHAM (for himself, Mr. ENSIGN, and Mr. MARTINEZ):
> S. 261. A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to restore the deduction for the travel expenses of a taxpayer's spouse who accompanies the taxpayer on business travel; to the Committee on Finance.
> 
> By Mr. CASEY:
> S. 262. A bill to improve and enhance the operations of the reserve components of the Armed Forces, to improve mobilization and demobilization processes for members of the reserve components of the Armed Forces, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Armed Services.
> 
> By Mr. CASEY (for himself and Mr. KENNEDY):
> S. 263. A bill to amend title 38, United States Code, to improve the enforcement of the Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act of 1994, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Veterans' Affairs .
> 
> By Ms. STABENOW:
> S. 264. A bill to amend title XIX of the Social Security Act to encourage the use of certified health information technology by providers in the Medicaid program and the Children's Health Insurance Program, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Finance.
> 
> By Mrs. McCaskill (for herself and Mr. CORKER):
> S. 265. A bill to prohibit the awarding of a contract or grant in excess of the simplified acquisition threshold unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee has no seriously delinquent tax debts, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.
> 
> By Mr. NELSON of Florida (for himself, Ms. COLLINS, Mr. WHITEHOUSE, Mr. KOHL, Mr. KERRY, Mr. JOHNSON, and Mrs. BOXER):
> S. 266. A bill to amend title XVIII of the Social Security Act to reduce the coverage gap in prescription drug coverage under part D of such title based on savings to the Medicare program resulting from the negotiation of prescription drug prices; to the Committee on Finance.
> 
> By Mrs. MURRAY (for herself and Ms. STABENOW):
> S. 267. A bill to provide funding for summer and year-round youth jobs and training programs; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.
> 
> By Mrs. MURRAY (for herself and Ms. STABENOW):
> S. 268. A bill to provide funding for a Green Job Corps program, YouthBuild Build Green Grants, and Green-Collar Youth Opportunity Grants, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.
> 
> By Mrs. MURRAY (for herself, Mr. BROWN, and Ms. STABENOW):
> S. 269. A bill to provide funding for unemployment and training activities for dislocated workers and adults, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.
> 
> By Mr. CASEY (for himself and Mr. NELSON of Nebraska):
> S. 270. A bill to provide for programs that reduce the need for abortion, help women bear healthy children, and support new parents; to the Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions.
> 
> By Ms. CANTWELL (for herself, Mr. HATCH, Mr. KERRY, Mr. ALEXANDER, Ms. STABENOW, and Mr. NELSON of Florida):
> S. 271. A bill to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide incentives to accelerate the production and adoption of plug-in electric vehicles and related component parts; to the Committee on Finance.
> 
> By Mr. HARKIN:
> S. 272. A bill to amend the Commodity Exchange Act to ensure that all agreements, contracts, and transactions with respect to commodities are carried out on a regulated exchange, and for other purposes; to the Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry.
> 
> By Mr. REID (for Mr. BROWN (for himself and Mr. VOINOVICH)):
> S. 273. A bill to require the designation of the federally occupied building located at McKinley Avenue and Third Street, S.W., Canton, Ohio, as the ``Ralph Regula Federal Office Building and Courthouse''; considered and passed. ​Perhaps it REALLY was introduced on Friday? So far it is all PR and no proof. A rough start to getting a law passed.
> 
> Certainly not a "gaining momentum" or "sure to pass" situation.


It was Friday actually.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r111:39:./temp/~r111A05uFl::

UNANIMOUS CONSENT REQUEST--DIGITAL TELEVISION TRANSITION AND PUBLIC SAFETY ACT OF 2005 -- (Senate - January 16, 2009)

[Page: S657] GPO's PDF
--- Mr. REID. Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the Senate proceed to the immediate consideration of the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005; further, that the bill be read three times, passed, the motions to reconsider be laid on the table, and that there be no intervening action or debate.

To more specifically define the bill, it is for the consideration of the Rockefeller bill which is at the desk, a bill to delay the Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005 until June 13 of 2009.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. Is there an objection to the request?

Mr. REID. Mr. President, we alerted the minority that we were going to offer this, and because there are some problems with time, I understand there would be an objection to this request. As a result, I will withdraw my request and renew it probably on Tuesday or Wednesday.

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The request is withdrawn.

---------------------------------------

The unanimous consent attempt was pretty ridiculous, but what about Congress isn't?


----------



## HIPAR

Unanimous Consent is a 'fast track' to clear the bill and avoid debate on the floor. They will need to twist some arms to get it through that way next week.

I'm thinking it will go through by vote. What political harm can one cause himself by voting to delay? I haven't seen any reference to a public outcry demanding a total DTV transition. That suggests overall satisfaction with the stations, both digital and analog, they have now. No one wants his life complicated with technical mumbo jumbo. Only a relatively few enthusiasts are vocal.

--- CHAS


----------



## Mark Holtz

Riddle me this.... 

What is so magical about February 17th or June 12th? I thought the TV stations could switch to all-digital before the deadline, and the deadline was when they HAD to make the transition. 

If that is the case, what is to prevent the stations from observing the February 17th deadline, and ignore congress extending the deadline that gets extending to 2015? After all, some of them feel that they need to extort money for retransmission of free signal.


----------



## HIPAR

Mark Holtz said:


> Riddle me this....
> 
> What is so magical about February 17th or June 12th? I thought the TV stations could switch to all-digital before the deadline, and the deadline was when they HAD to make the transition. ...


That's also my understanding. If I were a smaller station 'suit' who really needs to get this thing finished, that's what I would do as soon as possible. Who knows exactly what a new law will stipulate?

I'm not sure if all the stations in New York City could agree to do this without special government approval. The major market operations will stay analog to the last second.

--- CHAS


----------



## Paul Secic

jimmyv2000 said:


> On the 18th of FEB people will be at the stores *Like a bunch of SAVAGES* looking to get their boxes


BINGO! Joe 6 pack will be scratching the glass off the door at Wal-Mart to get one.


----------



## James Long

LCDSpazz said:


> It was Friday actually.


So I was right and Senator Rockefeller's Thursday press release stating "today" was wrong.



> Mr. REID. Mr. President, we alerted the minority that we were going to offer this, and because there are some problems with time, I understand there would be an objection to this request. As a result, I will withdraw my request and renew it probably on Tuesday or Wednesday.


Last I checked, Senator Reid was a Democrat ... making and withdrawing the request with no intervention from the Republicans in the debate. Seems like he knew it wouldn't pass so he saved Senator Rockefeller and the party some embarassment.

Try again another day. It seems that it is more of a wailing and gnashing of teeth than an actual get-r-done process. With time short the bill SHOULD have been introduced at least a week earlier. Now more delay?

Every day that passes brings us closer to the FIXED DATE of February 17th. The problems listed in Mr Rockefeller's press release would be better solved by funding the coupon program, perhaps even creating a rebate program where consumers could buy now and get the "coupon" later to speed up the process. Delaying the date this late in the game doesn't solve the problem ... it just creates more problems.

Edited to add:
The list of bills for Friday still doesn't include one on this matter ... the link provided above to Senator Reid's comments has expired (a new link is below). Hopefully a real number and text of the bill will be made available by the senators next week (or they drop this nonsense altogether and just fund the coupon program).

Non-Expiring GPO Link (PDF)


----------



## harsh

Mark Holtz said:


> What is so magical about February 17th or June 12th?


February 17th because it is between the Superbowl and March Madness, of course!

June 12th is probably a Democratic Party fabricated date in the interest of offering a "date certain".


----------



## Tom Robertson

I confess I find there is one point in Senator Reid's bill discussion that does make some sense. That of safety during the installation or updating of external antennas during the winter months.

Nothing else really has moved me, yeah I felt sorry for the people who didn't get the word, I felt sorry for all the planners and TV stations that are ready to move and budgeted for such, etc. but nothing really said--good reason to move the date.

The big push for education came late in the fall and during the winter. And I'm familiar with how treacherous winter ice can be to people scrambling to put up their antenna. This actually makes some sense to me as a potentially viable reason to consider a move. Now, June is much farther out there than I'd consider. I would be thinking early May. 

We'll see what next week brings.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> I confess I find there is one point in Senator Reid's bill discussion that does make some sense. That of safety during the installation or updating of external antennas during the winter months.


I'll only agree as far as the viewers who are not ready. Professional tower workers _*are*_ ready to work in any conditions ... if you find a team that isn't up to the challenge find a more professional team. The only thing that will keep pros of a tower is structural failures.

Besides, stations know the deadlines. Those in "winter" climate areas have been planning for the deadlines just like the rest of the US. In my area there are a couple of stations finishing up tower work this month because of choices they made not to do the work sooner and availability of parts. But for the most part, there is nothing that will make a station more ready by adding a four month delay.

So let's look at the individuals ... assume that the 7% are equally distributed by climate (although they likely are not). Also assume that 7% is still ACCURATE as the statistic from Nielson is a couple of months old.

How many of these poor unfortunate souls need outdoor antenna work? Pull out of the few million "unconverted" as of November those who have a workable analog outdoor antenna or live in a situation where an outdoor antenna is completely impractical (even if installed in June). Pull out of the remaining millions those who will just turn to cable or satellite.

Yes, if one unconverted person falls of the roof and breaks a fingernail Senator Rockefeller will be "right". But they can fall off the roof just as easily in June.

PS: Professionals are available for outdoor antennas installs for consumers.


----------



## Upstream

James Long said:


> How many of these poor unfortunate souls need outdoor antenna work?


If you are relying on OTA television, and don't have a working antenna, how are you receiving OTA television?

You don't need a new antenna to convert from analog to digital reception.


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## jimmyv2000

Upstream said:


> If you are relying on OTA television, and don't have a working antenna, how are you receiving OTA television?
> 
> You don't need a new antenna to convert from analog to digital reception.


OLD SCHOOL VHF/UHF combo Rabitt ears (From 1983)work well
I hooked up my Grandfather Yesterday. He's along the harbor in East Boston ,6th floor,facing the Needham antenna farm.We pulled in all Boston stations perfectly and 3 Providence Stations with 80% or better
he gets more stations now in Digital than in analog.
and no more tweaking the antenna:hurah:


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## Tom Robertson

James,

I completely agree with you from the perspective of the broadcasters. They are ready, unlike the picture painted in the bill's discourse. I'm not worried about them being the professionals they are.

I'm more concerned about the homeowners. Yes there are many of us who find rabbit ears and attic antennae work great--but then again we're also the people who've already tested our systems.  (I never even tried for analog when I moved into this house in 2005 or my previous house in California in 2003.) 

And I almost mentioned your same point of "what perhaps small percentage of the small percentage of people who haven't tried and tested their system will need an antenna upgrade?" Tho, I didn't think about the people who might fall off their roof no matter when this is attempted. (And how many people fall of their roof every non-transition year anyway.)

And I'm not saying I'm convinced that a delay is appropriate. Just that considerations are. 

I could also be convinced that only very, very few people living in fringe areas will actually need an upgrade. Mostly digital coverage will be as good or better than analog, especially when everyone goes full power. So are we left with 1% of TVs? 1 tenth of a percent? Even less? 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott

I say getterdun .. I'm sure most stations will make the transition in by February 17th even if the date is move out .. unless the Government makes it illegal to do it before the deadline .. except, wait a minute .. hasn't Wilmington, NC and Hawaii already make the transition? Perhaps there are other smaller DMAs that I'm not aware of.

I think this is like trying to stop a freight train with a pickup truck .. no way it's gonna happen. Just pay the fare for the folks that missed the train the first time ..


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## GravelChan

There is several stations nationwide that have already converted. Several of the Nebraska PBS stations have already killed analog and are transmitting digital only.
I also know of a couple of commercial stations in SD and MN that are switching on 
Feb. 1


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## jimmyv2000

GravelChan said:


> There is several stations nationwide that have already converted. Several of the Nebraska PBS stations have already killed analog and are transmitting digital only.
> I also know of a couple of commercial stations in SD and MN that are switching on
> Feb. 1


1 Pbs Station in the Boston DMA *WGBX 44* has reduced their(analog) power to near nothing last week to save costs.Another station is Going to reduce power *WBPX 68* this week they are a weak signal anyways
So my best Guess here too is that many stations will reduce power over the next couple of weeks until transition day or simply shut their old signal down as we are in that window now.
As far as the nightlight bill only 1 station in Boston has shown interest*WCVB 5* but their analog signal wont interfere with thier Digital signal


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## Dave

On Friday Sen. Jay Rockefeller introduced legislation to move back the switchover date to June 12, 2009. He is going to push real hard to do this for Pres Obama. I would say the odds are very very good that this will happen at this time. The government created part of the problem by telling people they are out of the coupons and they will be placed on a waiting list. I would imagine they got a number of calls from voters complaining. The Gov is also going to have to put more money in the fund for coupons.


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## Doug Brott

Dave said:


> On Friday Sen. Jay Rockefeller introduced legislation to move back the switchover date to June 12, 2009. He is going to push real hard to do this for Pres Obama. I would say the odds are very very good that this will happen at this time. The government created part of the problem by telling people they are out of the coupons and they will be placed on a waiting list. I would imagine they got a number of calls from voters complaining. The Gov is also going to have to put more money in the fund for coupons.


Apparently Rockefeller didn't actually follow through with submitting the legislation just yet .. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1964147#post1964147 .. maybe one day this week or maybe he'll decide not to.


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## scooper

More money for coupons - yes. Delaying the date - no. I have expressed such to my Senators and representative.


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## Stewart Vernon

I remember there was a test-market last year (Wilmington, NC) that went all-digital before the deadline. I'm guessing there were no panic attacks, and I don't recall any huge movement by the government to ensure everyone there had a digital converter before the cutover.

So why the panic now?

To be blunt, this whole thing is silly. The date has been known for years now. People who aren't ready now won't be ready in a couple of months because they are either procrastinators OR don't get the word. If they don't get the word, they aren't getting this word now either!

As much as I love TV, no one owes TV to me. I pay for my Dish subscription, so I guess they owe me TV  But the government most certainly does not owe me TV.


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## HIPAR

Because Wilmington NC and Hawaii and the other places that are mostly digital are not New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago and Philadelphia.

--- CHAS


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## HIPAR

scooper said:


> More money for coupons - yes. Delaying the date - no. I have expressed such to my Senators and representative.


By the time congress acts, It will be too late to get the coupons out by Feb 17. I helped an elderly friend apply for his coupons back in September. They arrived about a month later.

Actually, as James Long suggested, at this moment more money isn't needed as a huge percentage of those coupons already issued will not be redeemed. A loan to the coupon program is more in line with reality.

--- CHAS


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> Apparently Rockefeller didn't actually follow through with submitting the legislation just yet .. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1964147#post1964147 .. maybe one day this week or maybe he'll decide not to.


It looks like the bill is "at the desk" but has yet to be "submitted"? I'm wondering if it is being held while they work out the details of an agreement between the political parties. Better to introduce a bill that CAN be accepted for Unanimous Consent.

Hopefully something with no date change at all.


----------



## James Long

HIPAR said:


> Because Wilmington NC and Hawaii and the other places that are mostly digital are not New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago and Philadelphia.


In the most populated areas of those DMAs there are less likely to be problems. Availability of cable, especially lifeline cable offerings, and proximity to transmitter sites should help. Those people who will have problems in those major DMAs will have the same problems in June. What is the difference?



HIPAR said:


> Actually, as James Long suggested, at this moment more money isn't needed as a huge percentage of those coupons already issued will not be redeemed. A loan to the coupon program is more in line with reality.


The coupons that have actually expired have been reissued to others. The government would have run out of coupon money a long time ago if they didn't expire.


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## Stuart Sweet

I stand with my friends and fellows, Tom and Doug. Enough is enough. It's time to move to the next level. It may be difficult but it is time to take that step. Period.


----------



## HIPAR

James Long said:


> In the most populated areas of those DMAs there are less likely to be problems. Availability of cable, especially lifeline cable offerings, and proximity to transmitter sites should help. Those people who will have problems in those major DMAs will have the same problems in June. What is the difference?


I didn't want to say this directly but these DMA places are where you will find the greatest concentrations of persons that will, for socioeconomic reasons, have the most difficulty with the transition.

From a politician's standpoint it's better to postpone a backlash from those who voted for you overwhelming if more time might make a difference.

--- CHAS


----------



## Tom Robertson

On the other hand, the sooner you get done with people being mad at you, the more time you have to make them happier with you again. 

I keep thinking that people deep in major metropolitan areas will be able to use their existing antenna systems or similar in a few minutes. It's the people who live in the fringe reception areas that will have "real" problems with signals. 

And I find it hard to justify delaying for lack of coupons/converters. Heck, I bet the stations themselves could fund a lot of converters just on the power savings alone. (And would make a huge marketing campaign.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## James Long

HIPAR said:


> From a politician's standpoint it's better to postpone a backlash from those who voted for you overwhelming *if more time might make a difference.*


That is a big IF. Will 120 more days make a difference? A more liberal coupon policy, unexpiring unused coupons or offering a rebate of some form to allow people to buy now and get their rebate later will help. Delaying the transition date WILL NOT help.

Unless the new law REQUIRES broadcasters to continue to broadcast in analog. Something that is not REQUIRED. The law REQUIRES that the FCC ends full power analog broadcasting BY February 18th. Nightlight service allows and encourages approved analog stations to continue until March 19th with emergency programming only. Allows but not requires.

There is nothing in the LAW that prevents the FCC from ordering the shutdown of analog on February 1st. Unless the new law REQUIRES analog broadcasting continue that status doesn't change.

We're 30 days from analog shutdown ... just about four weeks. Some people need help converting. Give them that help. A delay will not help them. They will STILL lose their analog locals ... just on a channel by channel basis as stations choose to turn off their analogs.

Extended nightlight service beyond March 19th for emergencies? Maybe. But there is no "emergency" that requires Oprah or Heroes be delivered to US homes.


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> Heck, I bet the stations themselves could fund a lot of converters just on the power savings alone.


It isn't a savings unless it was budgeted.

Yes, a station could pay for converters instead of electricity. But they were already planning on saving that money by just turning off their transponders on schedule.

If broadcasters were given the choice of required continued analog transmission or a tax to pay for converters? ... both are unfair choices. The problems with the conversion program are not their doing. Why should they pay?

Over 93% of American homes have done the right thing and prepared themselves. Is it fair that there is any delay for a shrinking minority?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Was just comparing the cost of 4 more months vs. sooner.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

James Long said:


> Extended nightlight service beyond March 19th for emergencies? Maybe. But there is no "emergency" that requires Oprah or Heroes be delivered to US homes.


That is the problem--all of a sudden, to some misguided politicians, it IS a big emergency!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Think for a second...

Anyone likely to be unprepared for this situation with all the advance warning is actually NOT likely to be a registered voter. Consider what it takes to be registered and go out and vote... those people are out in the world enough to have known about this and likely have the resources to have taken care of things already.

People unable to afford the $40 converter box on their own and/or remain completely clueless as to the impending deadline are much more unlikely to get out and vote either.


----------



## James Long

Thanks to ACORN they probably are registered and did vote ... even if they didn't know it. 
(And that's about all I can say about that without banning myself.)

A lot can be done but step #1 is to get away from this silly "change the transition day" nonsense. Funding more coupons could be done by Unanimous Consent ... and those bills have been waiting since January 8th. They were just sent to committee to languish instead of action being taken. It is almost like they are trying to create a bigger emergency.

30d 1hr 20min until it is against the law for a full power station to broadcast in analog (except nightlights).
Let's keep it that way.


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## James Long

On AVS a poster reported that he had written Senator Rockefeller ... I suggested that people write their own senator's and representatives. Here are my posts:
Don't forget to contact your own senators (both of them) on this matter. They can't get Unanimous Consent if enough senators will object to this and object intelligently.

The most effective approach is to contact YOUR Senator or Representative ... the one you actually get to vote for (or against) and be polite and specific about your state or stations in your representative's market. Don't overwhelm with details but explain how it affects the area they represent.

Tell them what stations have already ceased or reduced analog broadcasting in your area. Tell them of the filed transition plans of your stations. Tell them what stations are waiting for February 17th. Make your best case, politely.

We can only hope that sanity rules ... that has a better chance of happening if our congress critters are properly informed.​My emails are sent ... we can do more than just rant on the internet.


----------



## SParker

I got a response back from my Republican Rep and he said he agreed with me that the original date should be honored. My 2 Democrat Senators haven't responded yet.


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## leww37334

Why won't anyone consider the reasonable compromise. Which is, go ahead with the transition, use the coupon telephone hotline to identify problems and contract with best buy (or cheapest alternative) to go to people's houses to fix problems for low income viewers IF they occur.

I'm starting to suspect that the DTV transition "disaster" is going to look like 1 Jan 2001 all over again, much ado about nothing.


----------



## leww37334

Actually I am rethinking this, I am starting to believe there is a large segment of the population out there who are not going to do anything because they have come to believe that the government has to do everything for them.

Consequently they will just sit by and wait for the government to fix the problem.


----------



## scooper

leww37334 said:


> Consequently they will just sit by and wait for the government to fix the problem.


"Let them watch static" - with apologies to Marie Antoinette

If they want help, I'll do what I can here and other places.


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## Doug Brott

The problem with "helping" is that there will be folks that take advantage of it. That's why there is a protocol already in place. At this point James is right. Turn the Coupon program into a Rebate program, but even that will likely get some cheaters. In any event we're only hurting ourselves by waiting now and I'm sure many stations will not change the date unless it becomes a requirement (by law). So what ends up getting saved?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

I don't know if it's been said yet but here's where I believe the government screwed up on the coupon that made them run out of money. There are many out there that do NOT need a converter box but applied for the coupon and got them. Like for myself, I applied to have coupons for converter boxes and on the form, it asked if I have satellite and/or cable. I checked yes to both. If I checked "yes" to cable, then they should have denied my request! I only applied so that my summer residence may receive digital broadcast (cable is available there but I prefer DirecTV since it's only $5 per additional receivers on my account). I have a friend who has cable and he applied and received coupons anyway. If he has cable, then he should have been denied because it should be approved for only those who receives OTA stations ONLY!! Get my drift?


----------



## scooper

HDTVFreak07 said:


> I don't know if it's been said yet but here's where I believe the government screwed up on the coupon that made them run out of money. There are many out there that do NOT need a converter box but applied for the coupon and got them. Like for myself, I applied to have coupons for converter boxes and on the form, it asked if I have satellite and/or cable. I checked yes to both. If I checked "yes" to cable, then they should have denied my request! I only applied so that my summer residence may receive digital broadcast (cable is available there but I prefer DirecTV since it's only $5 per additional receivers on my account). I have a friend who has cable and he applied and received coupons anyway. If he has cable, then he should have been denied because it should be approved for only those who receives OTA stations ONLY!! Get my drift?


There was no income / TV programming sources taken into consideration for the first 2/3 of the boxes, (the last 1/3 were supposed to go to households that were OTA only). There is plenty of reason to get one if you're on DBS or cable -

weather

And yes - your first line / reason has been mentioned before.


----------



## samhevener

scooper said:


> "Let them watch static" - with apologies to Marie Antoinette
> 
> If they want help, I'll do what I can here and other places.


 Why help widows on Social Security. We need to continue to socialize more banks, auto manufacturers and wall street with billions of dollars so thay can pay their CEOs millions of dollars in salary each year. I don't want any more money spent on those widows, I want my tax dollars to continue to socialize big business. Let the widows watch static and the CEOs continue to receive their millions.


----------



## Italia

leww37334 said:


> Actually I am rethinking this, I am starting to believe there is a large segment of the population out there who are not going to do anything because they have come to believe that the government has to do everything for them.
> 
> Consequently they will just sit by and wait for the government to fix the problem.


Nailed it right on the head. Don't move....just sit there. Watch your test screen go black and don't do anything. But when that test screen turns black permanently.....this person will be the one to scream the loudest.


----------



## bidger

leww37334 said:


> I'm starting to suspect that the DTV transition "disaster" is going to look like 1 Jan 2001 all over again, much ado about nothing.


I know it's been a few years, but I seem to recall the concern was the roll over to Jan. 1, 2000. Other than that, I concur. Bring it on, get it done, move onto bigger issues.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

samhevener said:


> Why help widows on Social Security. We need to continue to socialize more banks, auto manufacturers and wall street with billions of dollars so thay can pay their CEOs millions of dollars in salary each year. I don't want any more money spent on those widows, I want my tax dollars to continue to socialize big business. Let the widows watch static and the CEOs continue to receive their millions.


If the choice were that simple I'd agree... but it should not be widows vs CEOs. It should be prudent vs wasteful.

Anyone that worried about the hypothetical widow should be concerned more about her health, rent, food, medical care, and other similar needs LONG before worrying if she gets a free digital TV converter box.

If she gets a government funded converter box, but can't pay her rent or electricity or eat or get her medicine, I don't think her main complaint will be about the converter coupon!


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> Why help widows on Social Security. We need to continue to socialize more banks, auto manufacturers and wall street with billions of dollars so thay can pay their CEOs millions of dollars in salary each year. I don't want any more money spent on those widows, I want my tax dollars to continue to socialize big business. Let the widows watch static and the CEOs continue to receive their millions.


Gimmie a break.

By all means, fund the coupon program.

But, don't create more problems by delaying the end of full-power analog, at this late date.


----------



## harsh

bidger said:


> I know it's been a few years, but I seem to recall the concern was the roll over to Jan. 1, 2000.


When "The Rapture" didn't happen on 1/1/2000, the moved the date to the following year hoping that it had something to do with when the calendar started.


----------



## leww37334

bidger said:


> I know it's been a few years, but I seem to recall the concern was the roll over to Jan. 1, 2000. Other than that, I concur. Bring it on, get it done, move onto bigger issues.


oops mea culpa


----------



## bidger

harsh said:


> When "The Rapture" didn't happen on 1/1/2000, the moved the date to the following year hoping that it had something to do with when the calendar started.


Probably, since they don't consider the start of the Decade until the x1 year and runs to the end of the next x0 year. I just don't recall the pandemonium for that instance as the 1/1/2000 roll over.


----------



## kevinwmsn

I hope stays on the course for Feb 17. They should have put restrictions on coupons to begin with, but it really should have been rebates. Most folks should be able to use the same antenna they have always used. There are folks that want the government to do everything for them including thinking for them.


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## robmadden1

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2009/01/senate_agrees_to_delay_digital.php


----------



## Mark Holtz

> The new version allows TV stations to switch from an analog to a digital signal early without penalty and allows the government to issue more discount coupons for converter boxes that deliver digital signals to analog sets.


So, what's to prevent the stations from pulling the plug on the 17th?


----------



## James Long

Mark Holtz said:


> The new version allows TV stations to switch from an analog to a digital signal early without penalty and allows the government to issue more discount coupons for converter boxes that deliver digital signals to analog sets.
> 
> 
> 
> So, what's to prevent the stations from pulling the plug on the 17th?
Click to expand...

Absolutely nothing.

The "early without penalty" language bothers me. February 17th is not "early". It is the well known and long ago agreed on final date for analog service. While most stations are planning on keeping their stations on the air until February 17th, the law that the stations and the FCC are following is to cease analog before February 18th. Today is before February 18th. Shut er down today and it would be within the law. (Viewer notification requirements would need to be met.)

Senator Rockefeller makes it sound like he is being generous in allowing stations to cease early when in reality he is just imposing no penalty for following the existing plan.

The other junk in the bill is paying for the additional coupons with additional spectrum auctions ... and that is probably what is really after. Selling valuable broadcast spectrum to wireless carriers. Not for the good of the coupon recipients but for the good of the wireless carriers who have already received a large chunk of former broadcast spectrum (18 6 MHz channels).

In the past two days 25 TV stations have affirmed with the FCC that they WILL be shutting down on February 17th and only ONE has affirmed that they will be providing post February 17th "nightlight" service (which if this proposal passes will be irrelevant as stations will be able to continue normal programming until June). I expect most stations WILL follow their initial plans.


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## Jim5506

One of our Class A stations is already advertising they cease analog on 2-1-09 but offer alternate programming as a night lite for a limited time (probably 2/17/09).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Engadget seems to think it's all but certain that there will be a delay. Unfortunate, and costly for the broadcasters, but ultimately it will pass.


----------



## SParker

Stuart Sweet said:


> Engadget seems to think it's all but certain that there will be a delay. Unfortunate, and costly for the broadcasters, but ultimately it will pass.


I bet most stations will ignore this.


----------



## James Long

SParker said:


> I bet most stations will ignore this.


I agree. Transition is February 17th or before. The stations will get this done.


----------



## Herdfan

So how wil this play out for stations that are "moving"? For example, our CBS affiliate is currently broadcasting on DT47, but will revert to their analog 13 at transition. But, and I hope I have this correct, a station in Columbus is currently broadcasting on DT13 and will move elsewhere after transition.

Our DMA and the Columbus DMA are abutting, so what if we transition early and they don't? That would put 2 stations in adjacent DMA's on the same frequency.

Sounds like a mess.


----------



## James Long

Herdfan said:


> So how wil this play out for stations that are "moving"? For example, our CBS affiliate is currently broadcasting on DT47, but will revert to their analog 13 at transition. But, and I hope I have this correct, a station in Columbus is currently broadcasting on DT13 and will move elsewhere after transition.
> 
> Our DMA and the Columbus DMA are abutting, so what if we transition early and they don't? That would put 2 stations in adjacent DMA's on the same frequency.
> 
> Sounds like a mess.


Sen Rockefeller's actual plan has not been released ... only mentioned in press releases and statements. The nightlight bill he authored back in October allowed continued analog only in situations where there was no interference with digital. Media reports about this new bill seem to support the idea that this extension will also have limits.

We'll know more when we have actual text.


----------



## Herdfan

James Long said:


> The nightlight bill he authored back in October allowed continued analog only in situations where there was no interference with digital.


Analog to digital interference won't be the issue. It will be digital to digital interference where one station moves to its final DTV location before another station moves off their temporary DTV location.


----------



## James Long

Herdfan said:


> Analog to digital interference won't be the issue. It will be digital to digital interference where one station moves to its final DTV location before another station moves off their temporary DTV location.


The nightlight rules covered that as well. The only stations eligible for nightlight service are those who after the shuffle will not interfere. This allows stations to move around their digital signals as planned.

If this new proposal is written correctly there should be NO interference with a station's conversion to it's final digital channel.


----------



## Dave

Unfortunately there will be a delay until June 12, 2009. Congress is looking at the failed tests they had this past year. There were some test conducted in some areas of the country that went bad in Congresses eyes. Some people in the test area were not ready and lost service during the test. The first thing they did was call up there Senators and Congressperson and complain. It paid off. The changeover will be delayed. Part of it is Congresses fault as I have stated before. They did not put enough money into the fund for converter box coupons. Then the company running the program wanted to put the people in the country on a waiting list. Nobody wants to be put on a waiting to get there TV stations. So now we have people from all over the country calling and complaining to there Senators and Congresspersons. I guess its either delay or be all over the 6 oclock news for making a huge mistake. Some of you will say so what. Live with not being ready. This is not the way the system works. The US government is going to profit big from the changeover not the general public. So Washington needs to make it right.


----------



## scooper

The ONLY thing that needs to be done is to flip the switch on Febuary 17 at 23:59:59 (metaphorically speaking). If there are people who aren't ready - well - they won't be ready on whatever date is selected next time, either.


----------



## James Long

Dave said:


> Unfortunately there will be a delay until June 12, 2009. *Congress is looking at the failed tests they had this past year.*


What failed tests?


> Nobody wants to be put on a waiting to get there TV stations. *So now we have people from all over the country calling and complaining to there Senators and Congresspersons.*


What complaints?

I see no groundswell.


----------



## ziggy29

James Long said:


> What complaints?


I would bet most of them are related to not being able to get their coupons, not with technical issues related to the transition. If anything, what Congress needs to do is pass fast-tracked legislation to add funding to the coupon program so the waiting list can be processed -- and then let the transition happen as planned.


----------



## scooper

ziggy29 said:


> I would bet most of them are related to not being able to get their coupons, not with technical issues related to the transition. If anything, what Congress needs to do is pass fast-tracked legislation to add funding to the coupon program so the waiting list can be processed -- and then let the transition happen as planned.


Yes - THIS is what needs to be fast-tracked.


----------



## mhayes70

Looks like the delay might happen.

http://www.mediabiz.com/news/articles/?edit_id=10886


----------



## tomkarl

Not sure if it's too late, but e-mailed my Senators and Representative.

Just saw a news story that Nielson says 5.7% aren't ready. Those would be the ones that still won't do anything before June 12. They'll only act when their tv's go blank whether it's Feb, June or some other future date.


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## Dave

This past summer they ran a digital test in Wilmington, NC. They had over 1800 calls complaining about not seeing there stations. In L.A. they had over 1700 calls just for the 5 min test they run. They are projecting at least 564,000 calls to the FCC with complaints about the changeover. The FCC has asked for 20+ million dollars to hire and expand there phone banks for the incoming calls and for any help they may need. They are projecting 28,000+ calls alone in LA. Image what you will have in Washington DC, New York City, Chicago, etc, etc. from the poor nieghborhoods throughout the country. With numbers and figures like these there will be calls to the FCC, Congresspersons, Senators and the President asking for help. You cannot tell a poor or poverty family to wait on a TV box. For some of them this is there only entertainment. I am sorry to see that some on here do not look at the big picture of the country. When doing something this large throughout the country. Things do no always go as planned. I know we all on here can find help and answers in our forum community. But everyone throughout the country does not have this option. The delay will happen. Regardless of what we want or think should happen. I know when I talk to neighbors and friends I asked them over and over to get there coupons and be prepared. But we on here are only a few. As I have stated you can not ask the general public to go without TV and wait on a coupon for your converter box when we find more money to fund the program. If you just google Digital TV tests you can find some interesting articles on the test and problems. All congress could see was money signs when they first started this transition. Now they have to step back and fix it right this time.


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## scooper

How about a bit more truth about the Wilmington test ?

MOST of the calls were from people who lost one station in the area who were not in the Wilmington DMA. The reason they lost that station was because the station moved their antenna to a location closer to their intended audieance.

Granted, some of the calls were from people who thought the transition was a hoax, or didn't realize it was going that day.


----------



## ziggy29

Dave said:


> The FCC has asked for 20+ million dollars to hire and expand there phone banks for the incoming calls and for any help they may need. They are projecting 28,000+ calls alone in LA. Image what you will have in Washington DC, New York City, Chicago, etc, etc. from the poor nieghborhoods throughout the country.


That's the ticket -- the digital transition can also be a jobs program. Make it part of a stimulus package... :lol:


----------



## tomkarl

Dave said:


> ...
> 
> You cannot tell a poor or poverty family to wait on a TV box. For some of them this is there only entertainment. I am sorry to see that some on here do not look at the big picture of the country.
> 
> ...


The "poor or poverty" families have been told about the change for a very long time now.

I agree the coupon program has been handled poorly and Congress should immediately make more funds available to fullfill the waiting list - that or turn it into a rebate program.

It's not possible to hold every single person's hand through the transition. Sometimes people have to take responsibility for taking care of themselves.


----------



## James Long

Dave said:


> The FCC has asked for 20+ million dollars to hire and expand there phone banks for the incoming calls and for any help they may need.


Already done. The FCC awarded the contract weeks ago.

The trouble is that the people complaining are living in the past ... and they are not even living in Wilmington or Hawaii. The loudest complaints in favor of delay are coming from those who IGNORE the corrections made in the program and FEAR an outcome that HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN in any market.

Acting out of fear is not a good thing.



> Image what you will have in Washington DC, New York City, Chicago, etc, etc. from the poor nieghborhoods throughout the country.


Another reason to riot and commit crime against their race or another minority? People in poor neighborhoods seem to be killing each other off out of boredom on a good day. But again, you're fear mongering.



> With numbers and figures like these there will be calls to the FCC, Congresspersons, Senators and the President asking for help. You cannot tell a poor or poverty family to wait on a TV box. For some of them this is there only entertainment.


Perhaps they should read a book? Accepting education might get them out of the poor/poverty situation.



> As I have stated you can not ask the general public to go without TV and wait on a coupon for your converter box when we find more money to fund the program.


I'm not asking them to. The trouble is the idiots in Congress who think "wait four months" the the correct answer who have REFUSED to fund more coupons without the unneeded delay.

They have chosen to make this an emergency political issue. They are playing concerned people like patsys ... playing up the fear, uncertainty and doubt and refusing to face the FACTS and deal with the actual problem at hand. Coupons could have been funded weeks ago ... months ago if those who care had not been too busy waiting for an "emergency" of their own making.



> Now they have to step back and fix it right this time.


The right fix is more coupons mailed immediately. There is still plenty of time and plenty of interest in getting coupons. But the powers that are would prefer the "emergency". :nono2:


----------



## James Long

scooper said:


> Granted, some of the calls were from people who thought the transition was a hoax, or didn't realize it was going that day.


And when February 17th becomes June 12th with less than three weeks to go will that make digital transition more or less of a hoax?

I really hope every station in the nation flips on February 17th (or sooner) and lets Congress know what they think of a delay. Keep the message strong, on the air and don't worry about what Sen Rockefeller wants to do.

There are a couple of stations who will welcome this change ... they filed comments in the nightlight proceeding requesting longer nightlight service and normal programming. As for the rest of the US ... let's go.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

scooper said:


> How about a bit more truth about the Wilmington test ?
> 
> MOST of the calls were from people who lost one station in the area who were not in the Wilmington DMA. The reason they lost that station was because the station moved their antenna to a location closer to their intended audieance.


+1

Also, 1,800 calls out of how many households in that DMA (182,500 according to Nielsen)?

That's 0.9% of households...quite a success, I'd say.


----------



## joshjr

James Long said:


> And when February 17th becomes June 12th with less than three weeks to go will that make digital transition more or less of a hoax?
> 
> I really hope every station in the nation flips on February 17th (or sooner) and lets Congress know what they think of a delay. Keep the message strong, on the air and don't worry about what Sen Rockefeller wants to do.
> 
> There are a couple of stations who will welcome this change ... they filed comments in the nightlight proceeding requesting longer nightlight service and normal programming. As for the rest of the US ... let's go.


The locals in my DMA are or will be ready by the 17th. I dont want to see it delayed further.


----------



## scooper

James Long said:


> And when February 17th becomes June 12th with less than three weeks to go will that make digital transition more or less of a hoax?
> 
> I really hope every station in the nation flips on February 17th (or sooner) and lets Congress know what they think of a delay. Keep the message strong, on the air and don't worry about what Sen Rockefeller wants to do.
> 
> There are a couple of stations who will welcome this change ... they filed comments in the nightlight proceeding requesting longer nightlight service and normal programming. As for the rest of the US ... let's go.


Hey, I'm with you on "let's git'er done" on feb 17.


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## Stewart Vernon

If this works... people should just campaign to postpone the April 15th tax deadline too. Should be able to get more people to support that, and it would actually have more of an impact on average people than just not being able to watch TV would...

On an interesting note...

Moving the deadline because too many people complained about not being able to watch TV will really put a crimp in any plans to get kids outside to play, or get people to read books... because it will pretty much prove TV is the King and all else grinds to a halt without it...:nono2:


----------



## joblo

James Long said:


> The other junk in the bill is paying for the additional coupons with additional spectrum auctions ... and that is probably what is really after. Selling valuable broadcast spectrum to wireless carriers. Not for the good of the coupon recipients but for the good of the wireless carriers who have already received a large chunk of former broadcast spectrum (18 6 MHz channels).


No, that was just poor phrasing by Teinowitz in the TV Week article.

I've seen a staff draft of the Rockefeller-Hutchison amendment.

I summarized it in avsforum's Hot Off The Press thread, in this post.

N.B. What I saw was a *draft*, and is thus subject to change.


----------



## tzphotos.com

Does this mean WBBM will not be able to move to the channel 12 slot? I know of many people waiting for that move so they can receive the digital signal from WBBM.

Make the switch on Feb 17th. This has been talked about for years. It's too bad people are waiting until the last minute to take action. You snooze you lose.


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## GaryPotter

What's the point? If most stations are going to switch anyway, the whole thing is moot.

Oh, and Dave? Please stop post huge walls of text. It's annoying and doesn't make you look any smarter.


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## James Long

joblo said:


> I've seen a staff draft of the Rockefeller-Hutchison amendment.


Good. It is nice to see that it isn't what it appeared to be (auction wise).



tzphotos.com said:


> Does this mean WBBM will not be able to move to the channel 12 slot? I know of many people waiting for that move so they can receive the digital signal from WBBM.


It depends on the rest of the moves. What is preventing them from moving to 12 today? As long as whatever that hurdle is clears up then WBBM can move.

It looks like WBBM is waiting to take posession of WTTW's antenna and transmitter.


> To meet the February 17, 2009 deadline, WBBM-TV has entered into an agreement with Window to the World Communications, Inc., the licensee of station WTTW(TV), to purchase the Channel 11 analog transmission facilities of WTTW and convert the transmitter and antenna systems of WTTW to digital facilities operating on Channel 12. It is anticipated that the conversion and testing of the Channel 11 facilities of WTTW to the Channel 12 DTV facilities of WBBM-TV will be completed before February 1, 2009.
> WBBM DTV Transition Update - Filed 9/11/2008​


----------



## joshjr

My local affiliates said that they were a little weary of the situationl. FOX and CBS said if they are given the chance to they will change on the cut off but if the FCC does not leave it up to the affiliates then their hands are tied for a few more months.


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## samhevener

Yesterdays Cleveland Plain Dealer printed this story in the business section. The latest Nielsen survey reports that over 90,000 of the households in NE Ohio (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown) out of the 162,000 that use antenna only are not ready for the switch. Mostly disabled, elderly or low income which the Niesen Advisory group says "These viewers rely on traditional television the most and can least afford to lose their television lifelines"


----------



## James Long

samhevener said:


> Yesterdays Cleveland Plain Dealer printed this story in the business section. The latest Nielsen survey reports that over 90,000 of the households in NE Ohio (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown) out of the 162,000 that use antenna only are not ready for the switch. Mostly disabled, elderly or low income which the Niesen Advisory group says "These viewers rely on traditional television the most and can least afford to lose their television lifelines"


http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/business-11/123270315936440.xml&coll=2
That's a relatively small percentage - 5.9 percent - of the 1.5 million television viewing households in the Cleveland-Akron television market that mostly have cable, satellite or another pay TV service that is not impacted by the change. But it's a significant portion of the 162,000 local households that, as of November, relied on an antenna to pull in free television signals.

Nationwide, 5.7 percent, or 6.5 million households, aren't prepared for the transition, according to Nielsen, a marketing research company. It has been nearly two years since Congress set the Tuesday, Feb. 17, deadline.​


----------



## scooper

samhevener said:


> Yesterdays Cleveland Plain Dealer printed this story in the business section. The latest Nielsen survey reports that over 90,000 of the households in NE Ohio (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown) out of the 162,000 that use antenna only are not ready for the switch. Mostly disabled, elderly or low income which the Niesen Advisory group says "These viewers rely on traditional television the most and can least afford to lose their television lifelines"


Obviously, watching TV isn't THAT important to them or they would have their CECBs by now. They will do what it takes when it happens and probably do nothing until they have to.


----------



## ziggy29

scooper said:


> Obviously, watching TV isn't THAT important to them or they would have their CECBs by now. They will do what it takes when it happens and probably do nothing until they have to.


This is human nature, and if you legislate to take this human nature into account, it would never happen because there are always going to be some people who won't do anything until they HAVE to.

By all means, expedite the coupons to them if need be, but other than that leave everything alone and leave the date in place.


----------



## txtommy

scooper said:


> Obviously, watching TV isn't THAT important to them or they would have their CECBs by now. They will do what it takes when it happens and probably do nothing until they have to.


This extension will just prove to them that there was no urgency to upgrade. Many viewers will put this off until the morning they wake up to a blank screen. At that point they will hook up the box they may already have, go buy a box, call and order cable/satellite, go buy the new tv they really wanted anyway, call a tech for help or whatever they need to do to get reception. These people just don't see any urgency to do anything until it becomes necessary. After all it will only cost them a few hours or a few days reception. It just isn't a big deal to everyone. To these people we could keep delaying month by month for 10 years and they will not act until after the last delay.


----------



## samhevener

scooper said:


> Obviously, watching TV isn't THAT important to them or they would have their CECBs by now. They will do what it takes when it happens and probably do nothing until they have to.


As the story in The Plain Dealer stated, most are low income, seniors or disabled. Hard times are here, which according to former President Bush started over a year ago. These are not normal times.


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## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> As the story in The Plain Dealer stated, most are low income, seniors or disabled. Hard times are here, which according to former President Bush started over a year ago. These are not normal times.


It's only TV...it's not "a lifeline". There is always radio for emergency information and entertainment.

After the analog cut-off, I'm sure there are concerned citizens that will help those who need help either acquiring or installing a converter box. (...the needy, not lazy)

The government can't (...and shouldn't) do it all.

But there will always be those that do nothing until pushed.

The potential cost, in jobs, within the broadcast industry for the un-budgeted expense of continuing to keep analog is very real. So, it's better to lose a few more jobs these days, so granny can see Lawrence Welk for 4 more months?

I guess I've got more faith that "we the people" will take care of granny...coupon program, or not.


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## tzphotos.com

Article in the Chicago Sun-Times Newspaper:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/otherviews/1394997,CST-EDT-open24c.article


----------



## harsh

I much appreciate that the author pointed out that without the switch, the much ballyhooed public safety bands will not be available. Politicians are all too adept at single-minded focus.

Somebody needs to remind these politicos that allocation of certain (most) resources cannot overlap.


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## Stewart Vernon

samhevener said:


> As the story in The Plain Dealer stated, most are low income, seniors or disabled. Hard times are here, which according to former President Bush started over a year ago. These are not normal times.


I've said it before, but it bears repeating..

Anyone who can't afford the $40 converter box (or $10-$20 on top of using a coupon) has much more pressing financial issues to deal with than their TV.

IF the $10 will break their bank as a one time fee... how on earth will they pay for the electricity necessary to run the thing? Or buy food to eat? And heaven forbid they get sick and need medicine or something because they will definitely need help there too.

And yet... no one pushing for a campaign to end homelessness or poverty or hunger or get medical care to everyone.. Instead we get "the world will end if I can't watch TV". :nono:


----------



## Mark Holtz

HDMe said:


> And yet... no one pushing for a campaign to end homelessness or poverty or hunger or get medical care to everyone.. Instead we get "the world will end if I can't watch TV". :nono:


I'm sorry, HDme, but I disagree with you on that point, and how it is hurting state and local governments. HOWEVER, that point is a topic of debate on another web board, not DBSTalk. On that point, a group of great people who have the word "Moderator" by their name would agree with that one.

However, if you want to know who your represenatitves are, go to Project Vote Smart. That site has links to contact e-mail addresses to all of your legislative leaders. All you need is your ZIP code.


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## samhevener

I have been saying for the past year and a half the shutdown will be delayed. The reason is that it is a MAJOR change in the way we have been doing "things" the past many years. When you get as old as I am you learn that Americans resist MAJOR change. A year ago some of you were willing to bet me $500.00 there would be no delay in the shutdown date. Look at the Homeland Security rules that required passports for all Americans going into and returning from Canada. The date set many years ago by the Homeland Security Dept and Congress was Jan 1, 2008. That has been delayed for those of us going to Canada by car or boat until a least the middle of this year. Why because for 100 years we have been able to drive into Canada with no passport. Look at the law Congress passed about 25 years ago that required all US business be done in the Metric system. It was cancelled because Americans resist change. Look at talk of doing away with the penny, which would save the country millions of dollars each year. When Americans heard the idea, they resisted. Why, because it was major change. If you remember the 55 mph national speed limit President Nixon started in 1975, truckers started using CB radios to avoid the police and continue driving 70 mph. At least for the first 10 years or so, why because it was a major change in the way "things" have been done for many years. Americans will always resist MAJOR change no matter what it is. When you get as old as I am you will start to understand that.


----------



## txtommy

HDMe said:


> I've said it before, but it bears repeating..
> 
> Anyone who can't afford the $40 converter box (or $10-$20 on top of using a coupon) has much more pressing financial issues to deal with than their TV.
> 
> IF the $10 will break their bank as a one time fee... how on earth will they pay for the electricity necessary to run the thing? Or buy food to eat? And heaven forbid they get sick and need medicine or something because they will definitely need help there too.
> 
> And yet... no one pushing for a campaign to end homelessness or poverty or hunger or get medical care to everyone.. Instead we get "the world will end if I can't watch TV". :nono:


+1. Couldn't agree more.

I saw a 4' high stack of boxes in our local supermarket yesterday priced at exactly $40. That means they are absolutely free as they should be and that everyone can afford the box.

I suspect that if it were not for the government coupon program these boxes would be selling for $29.99 or less. The government has set the minimum price for these $10 boxes and the stores love the profit they generate. If the coupon was for $50 then the lowest price available would be $50. If the coupon were only for $30 then someone would have found a way to profit at the $30 price. The stores have also determined that most people will not complain about paying a few dollars out of pocket so have jacked their profit up even more.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

There is one thing I am having trouble understanding about this new legislation. If stations are allowed to switch if they want to (before June 12th), won't that create further problems for unprepared consumers if some of their channels go away and others don't?


----------



## ercjncprdtv

HDMe said:


> I've said it before, but it bears repeating..
> 
> Anyone who can't afford the $40 converter box (or $10-$20 on top of using a coupon) has much more pressing financial issues to deal with than their TV.
> 
> IF the $10 will break their bank as a one time fee... how on earth will they pay for the electricity necessary to run the thing? Or buy food to eat? And heaven forbid they get sick and need medicine or something because they will definitely need help there too.
> 
> And yet... no one pushing for a campaign to end homelessness or poverty or hunger or get medical care to everyone.. Instead we get "the world will end if I can't watch TV". :nono:


+2, THANK YOU!!


----------



## scooper

ercjncprdtv said:


> There is one thing I am having trouble understanding about this new legislation. If stations are allowed to switch if they want to (before June 12th), won't that create further problems for unprepared consumers if some of their channels go away and others don't?


Oh yeah ! If Congress (what is the opposite of progress ?) actually manages to pass a bill that lets stations shutdown on Feb 17, but to also allow broadcasts until June 12 - that will create far more chaos than just leaving it alone on Feb 17.

Sam is complaining now - what happens if the bill gets passed / signed and a significant number of stations just decide to shutdown anyway ? There is already over 300 stations that have or will have shutdown analog by Feb 17 regardless of an extension being passed or not. One station in South Dakota is shutting down analog right after the Super Bowl ( http://www.kdlt.com/ ) on Feb 1.

The way the bill could possibly make Sam and company happy would be to *PREVENT* stations from shutting down before June 12 - and that is NOT what is being proposed.

Be careful what you ask for Sam - you may get it.... and it may not be the results you were looking for.


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## Dave

The 4' stack of converter boxes is still not the problem by being available to the general public. The problem is with congress finding a emergency way to get more coupons to the consumer so they get a free box. Congress is trying to hold on to the money as long as they can. They hate to give away the profits from selling the spectrum.


----------



## Mark Holtz

I have sent off a note to my congresscritters earlier today.


----------



## James Long

samhevener said:


> I have been saying for the past year and a half the shutdown will be delayed.


Is the mess we are about to see enacted what you would have predicted a couple of months ago? Stations will voluntarily shut down their analog signals at will. For many stations (I'm willing to say MOST stations) the shutdown will NOT be delayed. There will be a few (100 or less, in my opinion) who will embrace the extension and keep their analog signals running. MOST stations will not delay shutdown.

And I can use most of your examples as precedents proving my opinion. 



> The reason is that it is a MAJOR change in the way we have been doing "things" the past many years. When you get as old as I am you learn that Americans resist MAJOR change.


In this case the change is allowing analog broadcasts beyond the set and well known date. _Stations_ will decide whether or not to leave analog running and I believe _stations_ will resist the change to June 12th.

In most of your examples there was a personal choice to defy the law with little to no penalty. In this case the government will actually be removing the penalty for defying the "turn off your analog by February 18th" law. Stations that may have refused to terminate their analog (risking FCC penalties for illegal broadcasting) won't face that penalty until June 13th.

There is no law requiring analog service until February 17th and the reports on the Rockefeller bill do not include any requirement to broadcast in analog. Not one station will be "defiant" if they all shut down on February 17th. "Resistance" to changing the date is practically guaranteed.


----------



## txtommy

My neighbors are among the 6.5 million who are not ready for the conversion. This delay will not make them any more ready. It's not that they can't afford the box or don't know what they need to do, its just that they aren't all that concerned. They have a single tv that they turn on a few hours per week and don't feel the need to rush out and buy a box until after the conversion takes place. There are lots of people who feel this way. They will take no action until after the switch takes place. At that time they may buy a box or they may buy a new tv or they may not do anything for a few days or weeks. TV just isn't that important to them. 

People in our area were recently without power due to hurricane Ike for several days to several weeks. That taught a lot of us that there are much more urgent things to be concerned about other than tv.


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## James Long

txtommy said:


> I suspect that if it were not for the government coupon program these boxes would be selling for $29.99 or less. The government has set the minimum price for these $10 boxes and the stores love the profit they generate.


I agree in part and disagree in part.

If there was not a $40 coupon we would be seeing a lot more $10 value boxes ... selling for $20 or $30. While there are $10 value boxes in the market there are also $30 value boxes selling for $60. The "YOU MUST GET ONE OF THESE OR LOSE TV" emergency serves to bump up the price regardless of the coupon value. When the emergency passes the boxes will be on clearance.

The big flaw I see is in limiting the functions on the boxes. The government should have set a minimum standard for CECBs and no maximum. People should have been able to apply their $40 against any box that met the minimum. We have boxes that have been dumbed down to meet a limit.


----------



## James Long

Mark Holtz said:


> Tell your representatives to JUST SAY NO... to the DTV Delay Act. Leave the DTV transition date at February 17th. Don't wait, contact them today.


From Sen Rockefeller's Jan 23rd statement ...
The way I see it, right now we have a choice. We can do the DTV transition right or we can do it wrong. Doing it right would mean that as many as 21 million households across this country do not lose access to news, information and emergency alerts. Doing it right would mean that every consumer who relies on over the-air television is aware of the steps they need to take to ensure continued reception and receive the assistance they need to prepare for the transition in their home. And doing it right means that no one across this land wakes up on February 18 to find that their television set has gone dark.​Sen Rockefeller is suggesting that we do it wrong.

His proposal WILL NOT prevent "21 million households" from losing access to news and information via TV. It will only ALLOW stations to continue at will. The will isn't there.

Sen Rockefeller's plan will not fulfill the guarantee of assisting every consumer (and the delay of every other bill extending the coupon program while Congress has been waiting has hurt those consumers).

Sen Rockefeller's plan WILL NOT guarantee that "no one" will find their TV dark on February 18th.

Sen Rockefeller is a sore loser ... he voted against setting February 17th as the date back in 2005 and now he is using his power to corrupt the system further.


----------



## RobertE

Short of having FCC commandos kick in every door across the US and install converter boxes, someone will be lose their TV. It doesn't matter what the date is, Feb 18, June 12, stardate 52330.12, someone will wait and then complain.


----------



## Mark Holtz

James Long said:


> Sen Rockefeller is a sore loser ... he voted against setting February 17th as the date back in 2005 and now he is using his power to corrupt the system further.


So, have you written your letter to Congress yet? You can easily e-mail it to all of your representatives via www.congress.org . The one I sent today got a automated "yes, I received your message" from my congressman already.

Look, there are a bunch of issues of concern to the members of DBSTalk. It is easy to complain about it here in online forums. It's a bit harder to take the next step and write your representatives. The trick is to keep it short and concise while taking your point. One issue, one leter AND refer to which bill. Since I did not know what the bill number was, I referred to the "DTV Delay Act as proposed by Senator Rockefeller". That will make it counted in the right stack.


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## James Long

Mark Holtz said:


> So, have you written your letter to Congress yet?


Yes, as noted in this and another thread.


----------



## Herdfan

James Long said:


> Stations will voluntarily shut down their analog signals at will. For many stations (I'm willing to say MOST stations) the shutdown will NOT be delayed. There will be a few (100 or less, in my opinion) who will embrace the extension and keep their analog signals running. MOST stations will not delay shutdown.


But how long will this take until some station in a market makes every one think they are shutting down along with all the other stations, but when the witching hour comes, they stay on. Now all those poor old people only have one station to watch and this station looks like a hero.


----------



## Retro

The should have made the switch date the day before the Super Bowl! That would've lit a fire under some people!:lol:


----------



## Dave

It would seem that both factions have come to together for a compromise. The will vote this week for a delay until June 12 and they will allow any stations ready fro the changeover to go ahead and make the changeover if, they the station wants to.


----------



## James Long

Dave said:


> It would seem that both factions have come to together for a compromise. The will vote this week for a delay until June 12 and they will allow any stations ready fro the changeover to go ahead and make the changeover if, they the station wants to.


And the stations that are waiting for another station in order to make a change?

Who wins? If WOOD TV8 in Grand Rapids decides not to terminate analog as expected on February 17th that will prevent WWMT TV3 in Kalamazoo from moving to their final DTV assignment on channel 8 (WOOD's DT is on channel 7). Will the law be written to favor WWMT's effort to move to their final channel or in favor of an effort (hypthetical) by WOOD to remain on the air in analog? Which service is protected?

The same goes for WANE TV15 in Fort Wayne ... a station that is broadcasting at 317kW instead of 1000kW to protect WPXD TV31 in Ann Arbor's analog signal. Can WPXD refuse to turn off their analog and block WANE from being full power digital?

The only compromise I support is allowing analog stations that do not interfere with ANY digital operation to continue ... similar to the analog nightlight program. ZERO INTERFERENCE WITH DIGITAL BROADCASTING.


----------



## Art7220

Remember when they took the spectrum from UHF channels from 70-83? Are they using any of that for these new uses?

What's going to happen when the gov. needs more money? Which analog spectrum will be next to go digital?

(This can be moved to wherever it fits.)


----------



## James Long

Art7220 said:


> Remember when they took the spectrum from UHF channels from 70-83? Are they using any of that for these new uses?


70 to 83 became 800 MHz cellular phones and the SMR service best known as Nextel (among other users and carriers). Many of these services will be moving or expanding into the recently emptied TV channels (700 MHz) and Nextel was given PCS band frequencies to get them away from other SMR users where interference was being seen.



> What's going to happen when the gov. needs more money? Which analog spectrum will be next to go digital?
> 
> (This can be moved to wherever it fits.)


There is no appropriate forum here for the first part of that question. 

As far as the second part, I believe radio will be the next to go digital and I hope that it is handled a lot better than this analog TV conversion.


----------



## Mark Holtz

From Google/AP:

*Delay in analog TV shutdown presents challenges*


> With the clock ticking toward the Feb. 17 deadline for TV broadcasters to shut off their analog signals and go entirely digital, analysts say more than 6.5 million households are not ready. Now Congress appears poised to postpone the transition to June - but a delay could bring its own problems.


FULL ARTICLE HERE

This is worth reading, and illustrates how extending the deadline at this stage would cause plenty of harm.


----------



## joshjr

I dont want to see it delayed either. This crap about making a easy transition is never gonna happen. Whats to stop it in June from being delayed again. Some people will never be ready. As long as the converter boxes are available then if people freak out they just need to go spend $50 and then their tv will be fixed. Thats better then needing a new tv. There is no time like the present. Lets get it over with and move on.


----------



## samhevener

scooper said:


> Oh yeah ! If Congress (what is the opposite of progress ?) actually manages to pass a bill that lets stations shutdown on Feb 17, but to also allow broadcasts until June 12 - that will create far more chaos than just leaving it alone on Feb 17.
> 
> Sam is complaining now - what happens if the bill gets passed / signed and a significant number of stations just decide to shutdown anyway ? There is already over 300 stations that have or will have shutdown analog by Feb 17 regardless of an extension being passed or not. One station in South Dakota is shutting down analog right after the Super Bowl ( http://www.kdlt.com/ ) on Feb 1.
> 
> The way the bill could possibly make Sam and company happy would be to *PREVENT* stations from shutting down before June 12 - and that is NOT what is being proposed.
> 
> Be careful what you ask for Sam - you may get it.... and it may not be the results you were looking for.


 I think there is a misconception that I am wishing for or want an extension. That is uncorrect. I'm ready to go and have been for 6 months. The point that I am trying to make is that knowing Americans, there will be an extension. As for the bill and the details, the bill hasn't passed yet, I think Congress is going to take it up this week. It may or may not be the same as detailed last week. We will see. As for the coupons, a friend of mine told me about his elderly neighbor. She received her coupons about 5 months ago. She became sick and spent some time in the hospital and by the time she was able to purchase the adapter boxes the coupons had expired. She was not able to have replacement coupons sent to her.


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## joshjr

samhevener said:


> I think there is a misconception that I am wishing for or want an extension. That is uncorrect. I'm ready to go and have been for 6 months. The point that I am trying to make is that knowing Americans, there will be an extension. As for the bill and the details, the bill hasn't passed yet, I think Congress is going to take it up this week. It may or may not be the same as detailed last week. We will see. As for the coupons, a friend of mine told me about his elderly neighbor. She received her coupons about 5 months ago. She became sick and spent some time in the hospital and by the time she was able to purchase the adapter boxes the coupons had expired. She was not able to have replacement coupons sent to her.


She just needs to have someone she knows put on the list. If they fund more money then she will be set. Im sure she has a relative that would do it. If I need more my mom and dad have not signed up for any.


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## Italia

RobertE said:


> Short of having FCC commandos kick in every door across the US and install converter boxes, someone will be lose their TV. It doesn't matter what the date is, Feb 18, June 12, stardate 52330.12, someone will wait and then complain.


You are 100% right! Push it out five years....the complaints will still come in. If you have no clue about this at this point, then when will you?


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## scooper

samhevener said:


> I think there is a misconception that I am wishing for or want an extension. That is uncorrect. I'm ready to go and have been for 6 months. The point that I am trying to make is that knowing Americans, there will be an extension. As for the bill and the details, the bill hasn't passed yet, I think Congress is going to take it up this week. It may or may not be the same as detailed last week. We will see. As for the coupons, a friend of mine told me about his elderly neighbor. She received her coupons about 5 months ago. She became sick and spent some time in the hospital and by the time she was able to purchase the adapter boxes the coupons had expired. She was not able to have replacement coupons sent to her.


Sam - I realize that , and this maybe a bit unfair, but I was using you as a euphunism for those who wish to delay it. Please accept my apologies if you took that as personal.

Personally - I see no reason good enough to delay it - I think Sen. Rockefeller has rocks where his brains should be about this. The easiest possible way to deal with it at this point is to let it stand and have the stations do an orderly transition as currently scheduled. Then go back and help the needy who need / want help, and let the able procastinators take care of themselves.


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## James Long

samhevener said:


> As for the coupons, a friend of mine told me about his elderly neighbor. She received her coupons about 5 months ago. She became sick and spent some time in the hospital and by the time she was able to purchase the adapter boxes the coupons had expired. She was not able to have replacement coupons sent to her.


Part of the description of Rockefeller's bill is allowing people to reapply for coupons. Better than unexpiring the millions of expired coupons, IMHO, and not a bad idea.

Rockefeller's plan isn't all bad ... just leave the date alone.


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## Retro

As the article clearly states, there is a major trickle down effect to delaying that in my opinion will cause more problems than not delaying it... The government just needs to refill the coupon funding program and let people know and that's it! A delay is likely to see some analog stations shut down and some not, while possibly causing interference for many signals while stations move around and some don't..


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## HIPAR

The major players in the top 25 DMAs will continue analog broadcasting until the final second authorized by the upcoming law. If they cause interference or channel juggling problems that prevent other operations from exercising their transition plans on Feb 17, then so be it.

Congress isn't capable enough to worry about those nitty gritty details that have no practical solutions. And, I'm afraid that's soon going to apply to many other things technical or otherwise. 

--- CHAS


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## Mark Holtz

Quoted in entirety from AP/Google:

*AP NewsAlert
14 minutes ago*


> WASHINGTON (AP) - Senate approves four-month delay in digital TV conversion.


Original article here


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## Michael D'Angelo

Please move discussion here......http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=150943

Thank you.


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