# Upgrading the hard drive on 921



## pdbuzz (Feb 1, 2005)

I'm wondering if anyone has successfully upgraded their hard drive. I did a search but only found a thread discussing fan swap and hard drive comparison.

I'd hate to think that we're stuck with the piddley 250 GB drive, when 400 & 500 GB drives are becoming more popular.

Thanks!


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## bytre (Sep 10, 2003)

I came close to trying it when a friend had a few 400gb drives sitting unused for a week, but didn't quite get around to it.


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## Allen Noland (Apr 23, 2002)

I wish it was possible, but I don't belive it is.


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

Unless your a major computer geek/genius your stuck. Its about as close to impossible as it comes.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

(I'm not sure if Mark will allow this discussion... We may have to move it. But, if Dish had given us firewire as promised....)

People have had some luck replacing the 721 hard drive....

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showpost.php?p=308660&postcount=18

It does not appear that the 721 uses the same mating process as the 501/508/510 (very difficult to swap).

Since the 721 and 921 use the same base code perhaps it would be the same.

The 921 definately does not have the 137 gig limit, but it's a bad sign that the 721 automaticaly created the partitions.

It would be interesting to try ghost with a 400 gig drive.

Replicate the small partitions exactly, but create the final partiition as large as possible. Clone the data from the original drive and see what happens.


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## pdbuzz (Feb 1, 2005)

David_Levin said:


> (I'm not sure if Mark will allow this discussion... We may have to move it. But, if Dish had given us firewire as promised....)
> 
> People have had some luck replacing the 721 hard drive....
> 
> ...


I was thinking of using Ghost on it. I wouldn't try until after the first year. Do you have any info on the partition types?


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

I wonder if the "trick play" buffer is recorded on a different partition than the recordings that we schedule. Watching live TV, the "time remaining" does not seem to go down.

Case in point: The Superbowl. I was able to rewind up to 120 minuts back in time even though I had only one hour left in HD mode. That leads me to believe there is a seperate partition. However if I decided to record after the fact, and rewound 120 minutes, would it all have been saved? I did not try it this time (I have done something like this in the past, but I had much more recording space available back then).


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Don't assume that the "HD hours left xx" message in the DVR menu is equated to hard drive space left. You don't need to partition to reserve 120 minutes of data.

I recall a thead here where someone said ghosting the drive worked fine on the 921.


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## KKlare (Sep 24, 2004)

Michael P said:


> I wonder if the "trick play" buffer is recorded on a different partition than the recordings that we schedule. Watching live TV, the "time remaining" does not seem to go down.


The buffer must be on the "same partition" or you would not be able to save it. They may allocate 2 hours to not be included in the time left and use that for the buffer. They could not copy it across in any reasonable time. Close to what jsanders said.

An aside, how is the 137 GB limit related to IDE/ATA? I know if I drop a drive into a Firewire/USB case it is fine with any size I've tried, 160/200. (Mac user.) So do they partition the 250 GB?


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

137 gig is an addressing limit over the ide cable/interface - hardware limit. It's not an operating system limit (so there's no requirement to partition).

The IDE <-> USB controller in your Firewire/USB case supports new new ATA extensions. USb is fine too.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

David_Levin said:


> 137 gig is an addressing limit over the ide cable/interface - hardware limit. It's not an operating system limit (so there's no requirement to partition).


Actually, that depends on the file system. FAT32 partitions are limited to 127.5GB.

Coming from the Amiga platform where you can choose from a number of filesystems, it baffles me why there isn't a diverse assortment of filesystems available for Windows partitions. There is a lot more to it than "cluster" size; especially when applied to DVR applications.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

The 921 doesn't run windows.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Just plain DishLinux .


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

harsh said:


> Actually, that depends on the file system. FAT32 partitions are limited to 127.5GB.


Sure, all file systems have limits. But my point is that the 137 gig limit is not one of them. The 137 gig limit is a function of the hardware - a software change (file system) isn't going to get you past it.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

So, if IDE has a 137GB limit, how come our 921's are able to use all of their 250GB space?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Not the IDE/ATA itself, but old ATA spec described LBA size as 28 bit, i.e. 2**28 x 512 bytes ~ 137 gb size limit. Newest ATA-7 standard define the LBA value as 48 bit ( try to calculate it). So, all new disks and OS's IDE/ATA drivers manupulate with the extended value.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

SimpleSimon said:


> So, if IDE has a 137GB limit, how come our 921's are able to use all of their 250GB space?


Yea - we're losing the context of the thread. My earlier post said that the 921 does not have the 137 gig limit. As P Smith said, that's because the 921 HARDWARE (IDE interface) supports the newer ATA-7 spec.

I was trying to respond to harsh who mentioned a limit of the fat32 file system (effecting only Windows) which has nothing to do with the 137 gig limit of ATA-5(effecting all IDE devices).


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## srrobinson2 (Sep 16, 2003)

Wouldn't it be nice if Dish would allow us to put in a second hard drive!

According to the early pictures of the inside of the unit, there is plenty of room.

And, I strongly agree about the FIREWIRE! I think I might be able to forget about their deceit if the added NBR into the code


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I've seen in Yahoo group other 'mad scientist' did install 400 GB HDD into his 921 !


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

P Smith said:


> I've seen in Yahoo group other 'mad scientist' did install 400 GB HDD into his 921 !


ok, I found it. It's a very recent post. It's in the usual yahoo group where disk expansion is discussed.

I'll summarize. Then, we should probably take this discussion there.

He installed a 400 gig drive.
Ended up creating the final partition under Linux. The 921 is working with the expanded partition, but still shows 22 hours of record time (this might be hard coded in firmware).

He's filling it up now.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

No links to the yahoo group are to be posted publicly and will be deleted if seen. Please use email or PMs for that. Direct links to that particular yahoo group violate our terms of use.


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## Jon Spackman (Feb 7, 2005)

did it hold more than 25 hours of HD???

Just curious....


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

> did it hold more than 25 hours of HD???


He has not said yet.

Scott had started a thread over in Sat guys on this topic. I'm not sure this is the type of discussion Mark wants here.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=47866


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Yup - seems like E* has "bought" DBSTalk. We USED to be able to talk about any LEGAL things here - apparently not any more. 

The Yahoo groups in question also do not condone anything illegal.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The yahoo group has been against the DBSTalk terms of use since well before the 921 forums were started because the primary focus of that group was ripping the recording files off of the receiver hard drive to another medium.



> (m) Discussion about hacking into the content of Personal Video Recorders (PVR's) including digital transfer of undecoded programming from the PVR's hard drive to another medium is prohibited. However, discussion about upgrading the hard drive in a PVR is allowed.


Hard drive upgrade discussion is fine. Links to sites, groups and methods discussing the digital transfer of files off of the drives is not fine.


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Mark I don't see anyone there transfering video off their units.

You are thinking of another Yahoogroup called DISHRIP

You have your Yahoogroups confused.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I'm following this with great interest. I know the advantages of hard drive swap on my HD TIVO so having this with the 921 would make me ecstatic. I was told by E* engineer some two years ago that the 921 hard drive was considered integral to their security system and must not be tampered with, that they will enforce tampering with the hard drive the same way they enforce tampering with the smart card. Thus, I have simply avoided the concept. Seems many others have as well as there is no real infrastructure of 3rd party enhancements like we see supported by TIVO. If this policy on security changes at E* to be similar to the policy at TIVO then it would be a great day for the 921. 
Mark- your decision that hard drive swapping is fine but file swapping is not seems to indicate there is a change in attitude at E* regarding the hard drive security. Can you clarify? Hope I am not reading anything into your post that I shouldn't.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I think maybe you're confusing the Yahoo DishMod group (HDD upgrades) with the (I won't name it) group that rips UNENCODED  content from drives.

EDIT: I posted the above before seeing Scott's post #26.

I could've just said: "What Scott said"


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Ah...Scott and Simon would be correct. I thought that this discussion was taking place in the group that Scott mentioned. I stand corrected, and welcome a link to the other one.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

That link would be: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dishmod

For the record, the group's description is:


dishmod said:


> For the discussion of mods that can be performed on Dish Net's DishPlayer and PVR. If you want a drive bay, larger hard drive, a quieter box, better cooling, a custom paint job, then please join.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

How Disappointing.....

The space is there. Linux know it's there. The 921 just will not let you use it. Seems the auto-delete (and space available) calculations assume a 250 gig drive without bothering to check what is really there.

This is what pvrdse ended up with when the 921 decided it was out of space http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dishmod/message/5150

[in 1 Kb blocks]
size - 388,163,304
used - 166,558,300
free - 221,605,004

(LOOKS LIKE THERE'S ROOM FOR ANOTHER 30 HOURS OF RECORD TIME)

Don't know if this is a conscious effort on the part of Dish and Eldon, but it sure seems like something that would be easy to change.

Well, I appreciate the efforts of pvrdse, and at least we can swap a hard drive if one goes bad (assuming we have an image of the os partition).


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

The next test should be interesting, that being to let the thing record and see if it goes past the 22-25 hour record time of the original HD.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

As I see from David's post, the "next test" failed .


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## Jester 1 (Mar 25, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> The yahoo group has been against the DBSTalk terms of use since well before the 921 forums were started because the primary focus of that group was ripping the recording files off of the receiver hard drive to another medium.
> 
> Hard drive upgrade discussion is fine. Links to sites, groups and methods discussing the digital transfer of files off of the drives is not fine.


Why doesn't Dish or someone else acting in a professional capacity offer a drive that is formatted for installation so that we can upgrade our already very expensive piece of equipment? Or why not enable the usb port on the front of the 921 to enable storage of shows on external hard drive to free up space for more stuff. It would fall under the same rules as distribution of music. It's legal as long as you keep it for your own use, why should they care if you put it on a disk so that you can watch it later on your computer or dvd player instead of the tv that its hooked up to. Do we not pay for the service? I'm sure they will tack an additional convenience fee on as well as the $5.00 dvr fee.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Jester:

Many of us have asked the question many times. Taking digital data to a PC is considered Taboo. The MPAA it terrified about internet distribution, and Dish it terrified of the MPAA.

Now that doesn't preclude hard drive expansion. The 721 and 921 (I'd guess all newer boxes), encrypt the data on the hard drive. It's only visible on the machine that records it. But considering Dish's paranoia about hard drive swapping, I'd guess they don't trust thier own encryption.

I don't see this changing unless it hits Dish in the wallet.

PS - It is believed that the USB port on the 921 is version 1.1. Which isn't fast enough for real-time video streaming. The firewire ports certainly would have been fast enough..... Don't get me started....  .... Darn.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I don't think that hard drive upgrades cause terror on Dish's part due to encryption concerns. I think that the terror is caused by the customer service nightmare that is created when your average mom and pop type customer tries to do it and breaks something. Ala what they went through with the original dishplayers.


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## Kagato (Jul 1, 2002)

The real out for Dish is external Hard Drives. Universal Plug in Play (UPnP) has become the de facto standard for expanding space. There are several DVD players out there that will work with UPnP hard drives (and computers with UPnP servers) to play content. There's no reason not to support UPnP. Part of the spec subset is totally geared towards home media devices like DVRs. 

Truth be told, the only reason the 921 has not been hacked is because it just isn't as popular as Tivo. If Dish had the same user base as DirecTivo did it would have been broken a long time ago.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I don't think that hard drive upgrades cause terror on Dish's part due to encryption concerns. I think that the terror is caused by the customer service nightmare that is created when your average mom and pop type customer tries to do it and breaks something. Ala what they went through with the original dishplayers.


I think we're still talking about some level of paranoia on Dish's part. DirecTV seems to have survived with people upgrading TiVo boxes. While I'm sure there's some hit on customer service, there's also a gain in that it makes the boxes more popular. I just don't think Dish sees the bigger picture.

Kagato: It's not popularity. People have tried to expand the storage of the dish boxes (let's not way hack). In general it just can't be done. On the 501 series is a very complex proceedure akin to hacking.

On the 721/921 you just don't get any more space. The box will not let you modify the software (and I don't think we should).


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## Kagato (Jul 1, 2002)

As far as the 921 is concerned, it's popularity. The 921 uses a lot of the same Base components as the HD Tivo (which has already been hacked to the extent that you can log onto the box, expand the HD, and Export the HD Video). In the case of the HD Tivo the White Hat Hacking community is smart enough to create a new firmware that deactivates the encryption features of the broadcomm chip set (thus recording HD in the clear), as well as allowing people to interact with the box. 

In my opinion the HD Tivo is a much harder box to crack. It's got all sorts of undocumented stuff going on. The 921 is based on one of Cyrix's platforms. There's tons of docs, tools, and downloads. I think it's likely that if we had the same white hat hacking base as Tivo had not only would we be able to get extra Disk space, we'd also have Firewire working.


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## Altaman (Sep 7, 2004)

With the 522 and 942 both using the same base code, it may make some enterprising sole want to take the effort to add Hd expansion to the receiver. That being said isn't the reason the ability to add a larger HD to the 5xx series is that E* has larger drives listed in their compatibility list in the firmware? Also with the 501 508 & 510 they are the same except for the drive size, so adding larger drives to them is easier as they are just turning them into 510's (also no PVR fee as they are authorized as 501 & 508 receivers)

Alt


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## Jon Spackman (Feb 7, 2005)

Mark,

Any chance the programmers will add a little code to allow the 921 to look for the size of the HDD before it determines when its full. I would love to drop a 400g or 500g HDD in but if they are never going to enable teh box to use more then 250g its not worth it...

thanks Jon


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Don't count on it, Jon.


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