# HR20 - The Review Discussion Thread



## Earl Bonovich

This thread is for discussion of the HR20-Review thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=61862

Stuff not related to the review thread... please open a new one.

Where the Review was attempted to be as objective as possible (with in reason)... this thread is bound to be very subjective......

Earl


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## Earl Bonovich

Okay... two first comments..

1) I can EASILY see myself replacing my R15's for the HR20... even if that TV isn't HD.. It is that good.

2) Picture Quality.... The PQ on this box is as good as the H20's... I don't know if it is the connections or what (I had component on HR10), but the PQ is better then the HR10.

Heck it even made Stargate look good the other night.


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## ajwillys

Great review!!

Did you try the external SATA connection? Does it need a specially formatted drive from Directv?


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## Earl Bonovich

ajwillys said:


> Great review!!
> 
> Did you try the external SATA connection? Does it need a specially formatted drive from Directv?


I didn't try it, because I don't have an eSATA device yet.
But from what I was told, it is not active yet...

They talked to me a bit about some of their ideas on how to use it...
And if they go the route they where talking about it....
The eSATA device will be put to pretty good use by most people.


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## marcello696

No ATSC tuners active on day one is a bummer. Even though I'll get the big 4 via Mpeg4 out here is Los Angeles there are some other stations most notably KCET that I watch via OTA that I will not get form D*. Lets hope this gets activated soon as promised.

Great review Earl


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## carlsbad_bolt_fan

Very good review, Earl.

About the network port: Can that be used instead of the phone line to 'phone home' to D*?


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## dswallow

Do any of the menus acknowledge the existence of the ATSC tuners and such options are just disabled, or is it more like the ATSC tuners simply don't exist at all as far as the software version running now is concerned?


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## dmilam

Do you have a screen shot of the saved programs screen?
Just wondering how the interface for the "Now Playing" equivalent looks. Most importantly, does it have folders?

Great review also. 

David


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## ajwillys

Earl, you've been Dugg ... by me.
http://digg.com/television/New_Directv_HD_DVR_finally_released

Everyone go digg it and get this to the front page.


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## Earl Bonovich

carlsbad_bolt_fan said:


> Very good review, Earl.
> 
> About the network port: Can that be used instead of the phone line to 'phone home' to D*?


As far as I know... no reall information is going over the network port.


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## Earl Bonovich

dswallow said:


> Do any of the menus acknowledge the existence of the ATSC tuners and such options are just disabled, or is it more like the ATSC tuners simply don't exist at all as far as the software version running now is concerned?


Hey Doug...

They are actually on the screens, just greyed out
I'll pull those screen shots tonight


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## Earl Bonovich

dmilam said:


> Do you have a screen shot of the saved programs screen?
> Just wondering how the interface for the "Now Playing" equivalent looks. Most importantly, does it have folders?
> 
> Great review also.
> 
> David


I can pull the screen... but it is the same as the R15's.
Yes, it has folders.


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## ad301

Earl, are there any changes in the Search function, compared to the r15?


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## Herdfan

Earl Bonovich said:


> IThey talked to me a bit about some of their ideas on how to use it...
> And if they go the route they where talking about it....
> The eSATA device will be put to pretty good use by most people.


Will sneaker net be available?

ie, the ability to record a show on the eSATA and then take the drive to the bedroom to watch the show?


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## Earl Bonovich

ad301 said:


> Earl, are there any changes in the Search function, compared to the r15?


Right now, it appears to be very similar to that of the R15..
But I didn't put it through "Wollf's" latest test scenerios...

Currently it still only has a 25 limit on "Recent Searchs"


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## ThomC

Thanks for the info Earl, great job.
My one and only gripe seems to be it having only a single live buffer.
Any possibility of there ever being two?
It's a key to my Sunday Football viewing.


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## Earl Bonovich

Herdfan said:


> Will sneaker net be available?
> 
> ie, the ability to record a show on the eSATA and then take the drive to the bedroom to watch the show?


I brought that up, but they didn't have an answer.
Hopefully... but time will tell.


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## Earl Bonovich

ThomC said:


> Thanks for the info Earl, great job.
> My one and only gripe seems to be it having only a single live buffer.
> Any possibility of there ever being two?
> It's a key to my Sunday Football viewing.


I will never say never... but....


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## RAD

Thanks for the review. 

On the SAT1 connection it also says (FTM) next to it, what does that mean???


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## pdawg17

ThomC said:


> Thanks for the info Earl, great job.
> My one and only gripe seems to be it having only a single live buffer.
> Any possibility of there ever being two?
> It's a key to my Sunday Football viewing.


I agree...what's so hard about having two live buffers? Why leave that out? I use the two buffers a lot too....


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## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> Thanks for the review.
> 
> On the SAT1 connection it also says (FTM) next to it, what does that mean???


Hmm... no idea.. didn't even notice it the first time.


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## bryanb

Hey Earl,

I'm curious how I could have the HR20 record all the games for a particular team. With the HR10, I would use a keyword wishlist with the keyword being the team name and a show type of Event.

Any idea how it would work on the HR20?

b


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## HiDefGator

pdawg17 said:


> I agree...what's so hard about having two live buffers? Why leave that out? I use the two buffers a lot too....


Maybe they spent their time making everything else work perfectly... I could live with that trade off for the first release.


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## Stuart Sweet

Earl, great review as usual...

You say the unit has an RF remote? Not IR? That would make my Harmony 880 incompatible. Are you sure?


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## Earl Bonovich

bryanb said:


> Hey Earl,
> 
> I'm curious how I could have the HR20 record all the games for a particular team. With the HR10, I would use a keyword wishlist with the keyword being the team name and a show type of Event.
> 
> Any idea how it would work on the HR20?
> 
> b


IIRC... it would work similar...
I will try it in the next few days.


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## Earl Bonovich

lamontcranston said:


> Earl, great review as usual...
> 
> You say the unit has an RF remote? Not IR? That would make my Harmony 880 incompatible. Are you sure?


It has both...

You have an IR option AND a native RF option.

The RC24 will work in both IR and RF... the default is IR


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## generalpatton78

Great job earl!! I have to say WOW to the ATSC tuners! Even if it is a month or so WOW! I'd go nuts if the S3 ATSC tuners aren't active on day one. I'm in the 80 DMA so ATSC will be importan to me for a long time.


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## pdawg17

HiDefGator said:


> Maybe they spent their time making everything else work perfectly... I could live with that trade off for the first release.


I know but Earl hinted above that two buffers may never happen...


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## ajwillys

There's no port for the RF antenna. Is the antenna built into the unit?


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## Earl Bonovich

ajwillys said:


> There's no port for the RF antenna. Is the antenna built into the unit?


Yes... it is an internal RF antenna.


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## The_Geyser

Great job, Earl! I can't wait to get mine.


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## sorahl

Earl, great review! thanks! I can't wait for my basement ot be done so i can start trying to get them to give me one!!

Sorahl


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## Jeremy W

I noticed that when you were flipping through the mini guide, there was a little bit of animation there that is not present on the H20. Are any other parts of the UI animated? I'm a sucker for animation.


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## dan8379

Great review, Earl.....any official word on the swap-out program?


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## vtfan99

Earl,

Great review! Can this unit do simultaneous ouput over the Component and HDMI? I don't remember seeing that in the review (sorry if I've missed it). As we all know, the HR10-250 doesn't...something which was a PITA for the world cup. Hopefully this unit will come through for me.


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## Earl Bonovich

vtfan99 said:


> Earl,
> 
> Great review! Can this unit do simultaneous ouput over the Component and HDMI? I don't remember seeing that in the review (sorry if I've missed it). As we all know, the HR10-250 doesn't...something which was a PITA for the world cup. Hopefully this unit will come through for me.


I undeleted your post...  (nice to have power)

You are not blind.... I didn't test it.

I tested "Composite" and HDMI... not Component and HDMI.
I'll try it tonight or tomorrow.


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## Earl Bonovich

dan8379 said:


> Great review, Earl.....any official word on the swap-out program?


No, haven't gotten any details about $$$, swapout, availability, ect....


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## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> I noticed that when you were flipping through the mini guide, there was a little bit of animation there that is not present on the H20. Are any other parts of the UI animated? I'm a sucker for animation.


Most of the "guides" and "grids" are animated.
And when you enter into the full screen menu's, the screen "grows".. doesn't just appear.


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## naldoron

I was able to call customer retention and get them to note on my account that the swap out will be free for me when they are available in my area (Milwaukee). I think she said that had to with how long you have had the HR10-250, but I am not sure on that fact.


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## Hilbe

Is the ethernet port active or do they plan to activate it? I have VoIP and my HR-10's dialing is unreliable at best.


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## fullcourt81

Great review, Earl, or should we call now call you Ol' Blue Eyes!
You really kept a poker face in the last couple of weeks, sitting with a HR20 in your living room and having to endure all the doubting Thomas comments.:lol: 

D* doesn't have the HR20 manual in .pdf on their site yet. Maybe you can suggest it?


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## Earl Bonovich

Hilbe said:


> Is the ethernet port active or do they plan to activate it? I have VoIP and my HR-20's dialing is unreliable at best.


Do you mean HR10? or H20?

The ethernet port is "turned on" but is it doing anything... I don't think so at this time. 
I have been told that the HR20 (and the R15, D10, D11) are all VoIP compatible.

The HR20 doesn't have to do the one call that HR10 does the "TiVo" call, which is normally what people have problems with when on VoIP
I will know Saturday if the VoIP works (at least in my house), as I just switched to vonage.


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## Earl Bonovich

fullcourt81 said:


> Great review, Earl, or should we call now call you Ol' Blue Eyes!
> You really kept a poker face in the last couple of weeks, sitting with a HR20 in your living room and having to endure all the doubting Thomas comments.:lol:
> 
> D* doesn't have the HR20 manual in .pdf on their site yet. Maybe you can suggest it?


I will ask to see if there is an electronic version available.

I had plenty of "tells" this past week or so....

Editted: I asked, and got a quick answer...
An electronic version should be appearing on www.directv.com in the next few weeks.


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## mikewolf13

pdawg17 said:


> I know but Earl hinted above that two buffers may never happen...


Earl,

You have hinted very strongly for weeks that we will likely never see dual buffers on R15 or HR20. However it seems many peole take these hints as hope that the 2nd buffers is intended to be activated at some point.

Can you confirm that to your knowledge that D* does not currently have any plans or intentions to activate dual buffers?

And do you have information on the reason why the 2nd buffer will likely not be added, that you can share?

The premise of my belief is when you say "i'd never say Never", it means it *probably *will never happen you just can't eliminate the possibility.

If my assumption is wrong, please correct.

Thanks


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## gglockner

Like others, many thanks to Earl for the review. Now we know why you're selling your HR10-250.  You helped calm my nerves that the HR20 would be horribly buggy like the R15. I'm also very glad to hear about the ATSC tuners since I believe OTA will have some channels that are not available on MPEG4, plus the PQ seems higher for OTA ATSC than MPEG4.

I'm not going to be an early adopter but I'll wait to see whether this is as reliable as a genuine TiVo. In the meantime, my HR10-250 works great, and the software update will be appreciated.


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## Earl Bonovich

Dual Buffers....

Ultimately it is in DirecTV's control, hence why I say "Never say Never"
But... I would have to put it higher then 90% that Dual Live Buffers, won't make it to HR20 and R15.

Sadly, I can't share the reasons why.
I agree with some of them, disagree with some of them as well.

As of this moment, I don't know of any plans to add them.
Sorry... but that is just what I know, and my gut fealing on it.


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## Capmeister

Excellent review, Earl! I'd be willing to try this box if it holds up. Question for you about closed captioning, because that's important in my house (my brother is deaf): can you try it and let me know how it looks, maybe even get a capture for me?


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## Earl Bonovich

Capmeister said:


> Excellent review, Earl! I'd be willing to try this box if it holds up. Question for you about closed captioning, because that's important in my house (my brother is deaf): can you try it and let me know how it looks, maybe even get a capture for me?


Sure... I'll give it a shot.


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## Halo

Very good review Earl.

So it looks like it has 256MB of system RAM (I can only see 3-64meg chips but I think there is another not seen in the Pic) and another 64MB of RAM dedicated to the Broadcom video decoder chip.
I wonder if they used the same ST5528 as in the R15. There's a black heat sink on it so there's no way to tell from the pics. I'd guess not because the ST5528 on the R15 handles video decoding also (it's a dual core) while the HR20 has the broadcom chip to do the heavy lifting.

I guess I'm trying to find out how much horsepower this thing has.

Good news about the multiple channel series links. I know that bugs people about the R15. The additional space in the TDL is also a good thing.

I'm glad they didn't go with a single ATSC tuner. If they get enabled soon before 98% of most people get the HR20 then it will be fine.

Most importantly, it looks to have good overall stability right out of the box. Fast responding and reliable trick play features are very important to me, so it's good to hear that in the review.


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## Earl Bonovich

Yah... I was very tempted to pull the black heat sink....
But didn't want to take the risk that it was also "gluded" to what ever chip was below it.

The trick play is very good... it has it's momentary "hiccup" and takes a second to get the audio back, but in general... it is very good.
I reliably use the jump-back button to exit out of 3x (they got rid of the 4x)


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## Groundhog45

Thanks *Earl.*   :biggthump Great review. Looking forward to getting one. 

GH


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## Earl Bonovich

I will post one important picture later today...

The BOX for the unit... so all these phoney balloney EBAY auctions can be put to rest...


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## Jeremy W

Thanks for answering my question about animation Earl. I thought of another one though. Does the HR20 fix the problem that some people with the H20 have with the MPEG4 locals, where entering the channel number will take you to the MPEG2 SD version of the channel, even if you've removed it from the guide? That is something that really bugs me about the H20.

Also, how does the HR20 handle the music channels? Can you pause and rewind them?


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## twaller

The fact that the ATSC tuner is not active is disturbing to me. Maybe this suggests that D* does not consider this to be an important feature.


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## Hilbe

Is a phone line required to activate a HR20? Also, I have heard rumors on other sites of users calling and getting a free upgrade today. Anyone do this yet?


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## Clint Lamor

Hilbe said:


> Is a phone line required to activate a HR20? Also, I have heard rumors on other sites of users calling and getting a free upgrade today. Anyone do this yet?


No you don't need a phone line hooked up to get it going. Also it's only available in the L.A. area right now. Not sure when the rest of us can get it.


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## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> Thanks for answering my question about animation Earl. I thought of another one though. Does the HR20 fix the problem that some people with the H20 have with the MPEG4 locals, where entering the channel number will take you to the MPEG2 SD version of the channel, even if you've removed it from the guide? That is something that really bugs me about the H20.
> 
> Also, how does the HR20 handle the music channels? Can you pause and rewind them?


I can't answer your first question 100%.
I know when I enter "2" it takes me to my MPEG-4 channel, BUT... my H20 did the same thing. So I can't confirm it 100%

As for the music channels.
I forgot to check... the R15 can do it... but I will try it with the HR20


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## Earl Bonovich

twaller said:


> The fact that the ATSC tuner is not active is disturbing to me. Maybe this suggests that D* does not consider this to be an important feature.


I will say it again...

*DirecTV is 100% committed to having the ATSC tuners on this unit*

It is not that they thought it wasn't an important feature... They simply where not ready to release that particular feature at this moment.


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## AstroDad

Hilbe said:


> Is a phone line required to activate a HR20? Also, I have heard rumors on other sites of users calling and getting a free upgrade today. Anyone do this yet?


I have seen post on other sites of people getting upgraded today, but only in CA.

Earl, thanks for the review.

For those of us not familiar with the R15, could you spell out any big differences between the HR20 and the HR10? Are there things the HR20 can do that the HR10 cannot or vice versa?


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## harley3k

pdawg17 said:


> I agree...what's so hard about having two live buffers? Why leave that out? I use the two buffers a lot too....


Agreed... I use the two buffers a lot as well.

So far, except for MPeg4, I see LESS functionality than my HR10.
Oh, and the mix channels, and fake-VOD...w00t!

-h


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## sp1dey

Thanks Earl for posting this. It really has put my fears to rest. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these. Now if they could only negotaite deals with Tribune and Lin Broadcasting my MPEG4 will be complete.

Two things that got me really excited:

1. The HDD space meter, awesome!

2. The speed of the interface in those videos, the wife and I will really love that.

Thanks again! 

Now lets get those other birds up!


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## harley3k

Earl Bonovich said:


> I will say it again...
> 
> *DirecTV is 100% committed to having the ATSC tuners on this unit*
> 
> It is not that they thought it wasn't an important feature... They simply where not ready to release that particular feature at this moment.


Okay, so when I call to get my $399 upgrade and commit to another 2 years, I won't have to give back my HR10, since I'll need it to record OTA until they turn on this feature of the HR20.

-h


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## Earl Bonovich

AstroDad said:


> I have seen post on other sites of people getting upgraded today, but only in CA.
> 
> Earl, thanks for the review.
> 
> For those of us not familiar with the R15, could you spell out any big differences between the HR20 and the HR10? Are there things the HR20 can do that the HR10 cannot or vice versa?


Ummm... sure... but I think I will need another thread for that... so it doesn't get missed.


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## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can't answer your first question 100%.
> I know when I enter "2" it takes me to my MPEG-4 channel, BUT... my H20 did the same thing. So I can't confirm it 100%


Would it be possible to check with one of your contacts on this? It's a big issue for me.


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## henryld

harley3k said:


> Agreed... I use the two buffers a lot as well.
> 
> So far, except for MPeg4, I see LESS functionality than my HR10.
> Oh, and the mix channels, and fake-VOD...w00t!
> 
> -h


I tend to agree especially since I get my locals OTA. With 6.3 comming soon (fingers crossed) my HR10-250 should serve me well for at least another year.

H.


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## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> Would it be possible to check with one of your contacts on this? It's a big issue for me.


I can try... but the bulk of the people I am in contact with, don't have the problem with the H20 (we have talked about it)... I think a lot has to depend simply on how the locals are listed in that area....

I will see what I can do.


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## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can try... but the bulk of the people I am in contact with, don't have the problem with the H20 (we have talked about it)... I think a lot has to depend simply on how the locals are listed in that area....
> 
> I will see what I can do.


Thanks! If it's fixed, I'll probably get the HR20 on the first day it's available. If it's not... I'll probably still get it on the first day it's available. But I will be a little sad.


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## redmption

I get local HD channels via sattelite since I live in the Dallas, TX area. Does getting this DVR mean I wont get those locals anymore, or is the disabled OTA channels not affect me?


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## jdspencer

So far the review looks good to me. However, it will be a long time before I can even use one (DMA=156). And, DirecTV probably won't do a free swap out with my owned HR10-250 until my DMA actually has locals. 

Would DirecTV even allow subscribers get this unit if they don't yet have their locals?

As to the lack of dual buffers while watching football. Why not just start recording one of the games, or both, and then play them back.


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## Jeremy W

redmption said:


> I get local HD channels via sattelite since I live in the Dallas, TX area. Does getting this DVR mean I wont get those locals anymore, or is the disabled OTA channels not affect me?


The disabled OTA ATSC tuner means that you will not be able to pull in the station's local broadcast. The HD channels you receive over the satellite will not be affected at all.


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## Earl Bonovich

redmption said:


> I get local HD channels via sattelite since I live in the Dallas, TX area. Does getting this DVR mean I wont get those locals anymore, or is the disabled OTA channels not affect me?


It won't affect you... you will still get your locals via SAT.


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## harley3k

Earl - THANK YOU for this review. It is most helpful.
My negative comments are obviously not directed towards you.

But let me just reiterate...

Congratulations DIRECTV - this is absolutely COMCASTIC!
Your HD-DVR is now just as bad as my local cable provider's.

I hope breaking the relationship with Tivo was worth the whole $1 per month you were paying them so that you could develop your own DVR and be so far behind where you once were.

I will look forward to NOT puting an even bigger dish on my roof only to get 3 of my local HD Channels, and NOT paying $399 to upgrade to a 'leased' box, and NOT signing a 2 year committment.

Now where's that 6.3 upgrade for my HR10? Was that a tease, or should I call FIOS today?

-h


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## Jeremy W

harley3k said:


> Congratulations DIRECTV - this is absolutely COMCASTIC!
> Your HD-DVR is now just as bad as my local cable provider's.


The only thing you seem to have a problem with is the lack of dual buffers. Is that *really* such a huge issue to you? I don't really understand it...


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## ebockelman

RAD said:


> Thanks for the review.
> 
> On the SAT1 connection it also says (FTM) next to it, what does that mean???


I think that's for the Frequency Translation Module connection, which was mentioned in the Directv investor presentation. Speculation is that this will let you run multiple tuners with one coax cable.


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## TMullenJr

I have to say good job to DBSTalk! The word is out that this is the site to check out for up to date info. As of right now, there are 579 users (500+ guests) checking out this thread.

How does it feel to be the most popular person in the country Earl?


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## Chandler Mike

Earl Bonovich said:


> Dual Buffers....
> 
> Ultimately it is in DirecTV's control, hence why I say "Never say Never"
> But... I would have to put it higher then 90% that Dual Live Buffers, won't make it to HR20 and R15.
> 
> Sadly, I can't share the reasons why.
> I agree with some of them, disagree with some of them as well.
> 
> As of this moment, I don't know of any plans to add them.
> Sorry... but that is just what I know, and my gut fealing on it.


While I guess there may be good reasons and all that, and you can't share them...It truly bites HARD that it will or might not ever have it.

It's a great feature, one it should have...too bad about it not being there.

At least the buffer saves now when you watch something on tape...that's good news to me.


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## harley3k

Jeremy W said:


> The only thing you seem to have a problem with is the lack of dual buffers. Is that *really* such a huge issue to you? I don't really understand it...


This has been at least a year and half in the making, and it has less features than the HR10. But if I want to get any new HD channels (MPEG4), I have to upgrade and pay $399 (unless I compalin to Retention)?

I'm probably being way to critical, but simply - I just don't get it.

How long ago was the HR10 released? Where is the differentiator in their product now? Why would I pay a premium - higher monthly subs, pay for the receivers that I don't own / can't hack, fewer HD channels... D* better hang on to their exclusive rights to the NFL Ticket...

-h


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## Earl Bonovich

ebockelman said:


> I think that's for the Frequency Translation Module connection, which was mentioned in the Directv investor presentation. Speculation is that this will let you run multiple tuners with one coax cable.


AHH!!! DING DING!!
You are correct... I forgot about that...


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## AppliedAggression

Why in the world did they get rid of 4x forward? For the occasions I have to fast forward more than an hour or so into a movie because of the "Do not delete bug" the removal of the 4x speed will make it even more of a pain.

Hope they plan to add jump to ticks at least.

Also Earl, it seems the HR20 provides many improvements over the R15. Do you think the same logic used in this new HD DVR will be applied to the R15, or do you think most of it is just not practical because of the R15's processing power.


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## Earl Bonovich

AppliedAggression said:


> Why in the world did they get rid of 4x forward? For the occasions I have to fast forward more than an hour or so into a movie because of the "Do not delete bug" the removal of the 4x speed will make it even more of a pain.
> 
> Hope they plan to add jump to ticks at least.
> 
> Also Earl, it seems the HR20 provides many improvements over the R15. Do you think the same logic used in this new HD DVR will be applied to the R15, or do you think most of it is just not practical because of the R15's processing power.


Me personally... I am glad they got rid of the 4x FF... that worked so sparatically for me.... 
I do agree, I hope they add the skip to tick in the future.

I do know they want them to get close in functionality... but, time will only tell.


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## newsposter

Thanks for the review. I've only scanned this thread and a few pages of the review itself. You have cemented and justified my purchase earlier this year of my 2nd HDtivo for my existing programs. (yes I need 4 OTA tuners on some nights and do prefer the tivo features) 

However the HR20 will be a nice addition to my 2 stacked units once other stations I value go mpeg4. I could never live with only 50 SP WL nor the lack of dual buffers. 

however if they have the reordering of SP down to 0 wait time, I will give them kudos for that!


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## BrandonH

It seems to me that the answer to why there aren't dual buffers is a pretty easy one. Once DirecTV activates the Showcases feature on these boxes they want to keep the second tuner free as much as possible to be able to download these Showcases. Having to keep dual buffers would essentially keep both tuners busy at all times and there wouldn't be an available tuner to download the Showcases. You would need a third sat tuner for the Showcases feature to work and have dual buffers available at all times.


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## net17

Earl-

Can you look into the FTM, and if it is active. I would love to get one of these, but I live in an MDU, and only have one coax cable.


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## JohnSorTivo

Earl Bonovich said:


> I would have to put it higher then 90% that Dual Live Buffers, won't make it to HR20 and R15.


This came as a surprise to me, as I'm still on multiple HDVR2s, and dual buffers is probably one of the most important features I use every single day. This in and of itself will likely cause me to look elsewhere as I transition to HD.

I'm at a loss to come up with valid reasons why such an option would seemingly intentionally be disabled.


----------



## Herdfan

Earl Bonovich said:


> *DirecTV is 100% committed to having the ATSC tuners on this unit*
> 
> It is not that they thought it wasn't an important feature... They simply where not ready to release that particular feature at this moment.


It could simply be done to discourage subs in non-MPEG-4 markets from getting this box if it is in short supply.


----------



## AppliedAggression

Earl, my question really was, in the areas the HR20 is much faster such as moving Series Links in the prioritizer and such, do you think it's much faster because it's a much more powerful box, or does it have improved logic as well?

Obviously if it's improved logic, the R15 will hopefully see some sort of speed increase as well in those areas if they decide to update the logic used in the machine.

Thanks a bunch for taking the time to review this for us.


----------



## AstroDad

Herdfan said:


> It could simply be done to discourage subs in non-MPEG-4 markets from getting this box if it is in short supply.


Valid point.

Earl, I am also interested in hearing more about this "FTM" This would be awesome for me as I only have one coax in the bedroom and no easy way to add another line.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I will see if I can get some more details on the FTM....
I forgot to check to see if the unit had the same internal destacker the R15 had...


----------



## harley3k

BrandonH said:


> It seems to me that the answer to why there aren't dual buffers is a pretty easy one. Once DirecTV activates the Showcases feature on these boxes they want to keep the second tuner free as much as possible to be able to download these Showcases. Having to keep dual buffers would essentially keep both tuners busy at all times and there wouldn't be an available tuner to download the Showcases. You would need a third sat tuner for the Showcases feature to work and have dual buffers available at all times.


That makes sense... We need that fake-VOD feature.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

AppliedAggression said:


> Earl, my question really was, in the areas the HR20 is much faster such as moving Series Links in the prioritizer and such, do you think it's much faster because it's a much more powerful box, or does it have improved logic as well?
> 
> Obviously if it's improved logic, the R15 will hopefully see some sort of speed increase as well in those areas if they decide to update the logic used in the machine.
> 
> Thanks a bunch for taking the time to review this for us.


I think it is a combination of updated software, algorithms, but the updated hardware definently helps as well. Some of it will make it to the R15, but I am not sure what the improvements will be like there.

As for the review...your welcome, I am a geek and I enjoy doing this stuff.


----------



## TMullenJr

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the review...your welcome, I am a geek and I enjoy doing this stuff.


Plus, it doesn't hurt that you get the new toys at least 2 weeks ahead of anybody else!


----------



## JohnDG

Great review! A couple of questions:

1) Does the HR20 have to reacquire all the guide data (14 days) on a reboot? 
2) Any noise (pops, etc.) when the programming switches from DD to non-DD programming? This would be most noticeable for network DD5.1 programming when it goes to commercial.

jdg


----------



## JohnSorTivo

BrandonH said:


> It seems to me that the answer to why there aren't dual buffers is a pretty easy one. Once DirecTV activates the Showcases feature on these boxes they want to keep the second tuner free as much as possible to be able to download these Showcases. Having to keep dual buffers would essentially keep both tuners busy at all times and there wouldn't be an available tuner to download the Showcases. You would need a third sat tuner for the Showcases feature to work and have dual buffers available at all times.


Huh? Showcases, etc, are downloaded today via the SDD, in the middle of the night. They don't need to occupy a second tuner 100% of the time for that.



Jeremy W said:


> The only thing you seem to have a problem with is the lack of dual buffers. Is that really such a huge issue to you? I don't really understand it...


Then it would seem you don't come from a unit where you previously had it...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JohnDG said:


> Great review! A couple of questions:
> 
> 1) Does the HR20 have to reacquire all the guide data (14 days) on a reboot?
> 2) Any noise (pops, etc.) when the programming switches from DD to non-DD programming? This would be most noticeable for network DD5.1 programming when it goes to commercial.
> 
> jdg


1) Yes... it works similar to the R15, but does it a lot faster.
Once you restart, you will get "todays" guide information nearly instantly. Then as the unit is on, it will gradually start to repopulate... (you'll have tomorrows in about 15 minutes), ect.... In about 12-16 hours, you will have the full 14 days worth.

If you drop the unit into standby mode (basically telling the unit, no one is there), it will speed up the process... using some of the extra processing power.

It really isn't as bad as it seems... given that I haven't had to reboot the unit. Plug it into a UPS for blackouts, and you woudl probably won't notice that much.

One advanatage I have seen (at least with the R15), is that guide changes make it into the system faster then the TiVo equivilents. I will have to see how this goes with the HR20

2) No, I haven't heard any "poping"... just the annoying feature of some broadcasts, where the commercials are 10X louder then the program. (Which isn't a fault of the HR20)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JohnSorTivo said:


> Then it would seem you don't come from a unit where you previously had it...


I do come from a unit that had it... and I used it for mulitple years.
I have gotten "used" to it not being there, just like I got "used" to it being there.

Yes, there are times that I wish it was there... but overall... I simply don't watch enough live tv anymore.... And I am a football junkie, but when my Bears are on... that is all I watch... unless there is a brake in the action.

And you can just hit Record on the main show, and check out the other...

We have had this debate before with the R15.... bottom line is..
If you must have dual live buffers... this unit is not for you.


----------



## ksqrd

Thanks for the review, Earl. 

I'm a long-term DTV/TiVo customer, and even took part in an early hardware beta test for them years ago. As a current owner of HD10-250 units, I'm genuinely not sure why everyone is getting excited about this unit.

From what I gather...

1. Great build quality (not really an issue for me--I've never had a hardware problem and in my experience, reliability doesn't always correlate well with how solid a unit looks, subjectively).

2. No dual buffers. Big drag here.

3. More immediately responsive buttons. Nice, but not enough to offset the loss of TiVo functionality (user interface--don't really care much about "Suggestions") and tick marks during fast-forward. Also faster software handling of reprioritizations, etc. Nice, but not really a big deal for me either. 

4. More connectivity that appears to be completely unused (e.g., network that can't call DTV) or for the cognoscenti (external hardware interface for more drive space).

5. Same size hard drive, so the only space advantage will be due to MP4 compression.

Other than the obvious reason (i.e., the 10-250 units will effectively be doorstops at some time in the future) why would someone trade in a 10-250 for one of these now?!?

Someone please help me understand if I'm missing something--thanks in advance.

KK


----------



## JohnSorTivo

Earl Bonovich said:


> We have had this debate before with the R15.... bottom line is..
> If you must have dual live buffers... this unit is not for you.


Unfortunately, I've not been part of the R15 debate, as I never had a need / interest in the unit. I must have dual buffers and I want to be a DTV customer. It's a shame, it seems, I can't have both, if I want to move to HD. Hmmm, I wonder what the Tivo Series 3 will do...


----------



## BrandonH

JohnSorTivo said:


> Huh? Showcases, etc, are downloaded today via the SDD, in the middle of the night. They don't need to occupy a second tuner 100% of the time for that.
> 
> it...


I don't know what the SDD is but the "Showcases" on the DirecTV DVR are supposed to be a lot different from the ones on our Tivos. It is supposed to be more like a Video on Demand Feature with PPV's and everything. It's got to download all that content sometime. For example downloading a two hour PPV movie for for the video on demand feature to store on the hard drive for later use will take two hours on one of the tuners. What do you think would happen to the buffer on that tuner when its downloading that movie?


----------



## epaul

I switched to E a few months ago but I am still interested in D. Sounds like this receiver has a lot of potential.

You said it appeared that the receiver was acquiring an address over Ethernet. Can you ping it's address to see if there is a response? Have you tried a usb ethernet adapter?

How many software updates have you seen?

I've got the VIP-622 now and really like the picture in picture (used to have Ultimate tv). Any chance this might get added later?

Thanks for the review.

I'll bet you get first shot at a few other goodies since you have proven you can keep your lip zipped. :lol:


----------



## KipBond

JohnSorTivo said:


> This came as a surprise to me, as I'm still on multiple HDVR2s, and dual buffers is probably one of the most important features I use every single day. This in and of itself will likely cause me to look elsewhere as I transition to HD.
> 
> I'm at a loss to come up with valid reasons why such an option would seemingly intentionally be disabled.


Obviously I'm a newbie on this forum (this is my first post), so hopefully this question isn't completely stupid:

If you have 2 live shows you want to jump back and forth between, why not just record them both, and jump back and forth (whenever you want)?

What is the purpose of having two live buffers?

I rarely watch live TV anymore, but I can see where sports fans would. But, then why not just record the 2 channels you'd be switching between?


----------



## upgrade-itis

Nice job Earl.

I would prefer dual buffers as well, but realize that this is the ONLY HD DVR option to get new HD content from D*. 

I wonder how many of the "Pry my HR 10 from my dead hands" people will be around when new HD national channels are added in '07 in MPEG4?

Now I have another forum to read each day.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I didn't try to ping the box.
Just looked at DHCP history and saw that one was taken.

Didn't try the USB-ethernet.. wireless I would presume...

As for the number of software updates?...... can't tell ya that one 

I would put PIP as you know it on the VIP, right ahead of dual buffers in the list of things to be added (aka, most likely not)

I actually already have another goodie... nothing of this scale... but that review should be next week.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

KipBond said:


> Obviously I'm a newbie on this forum (this is my first post), so hopefully this question isn't completely stupid:
> 
> If you have 2 live shows you want to jump back and forth between, why not just record them both, and jump back and forth (whenever you want)?
> 
> What is the purpose of having two live buffers?
> 
> I rarely watch live TV anymore, but I can see where sports fans would. But, then why not just record the 2 channels you'd be switching between?


You can do that (with the PREV button). right now the downside, is that the unit doesn't remember your pause point. "Technically speaking", this is the exact same as dual buffers... other then it "saves" the show.


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> AHH!!! DING DING!!
> You are correct... I forgot about that...


I was hoping it would be something along those lines. Now I wonder how long it will be before that's something available???


----------



## Clint Lamor

JohnSorTivo said:


> Unfortunately, I've not been part of the R15 debate, as I never had a need / interest in the unit. I must have dual buffers and I want to be a DTV customer. It's a shame, it seems, I can't have both, if I want to move to HD. Hmmm, I wonder what the Tivo Series 3 will do...


From my understanding it will allow you to get cable. I think it's big upside is that it's CableCard so right there says it's pretty useless outside of having cable.


----------



## raynman

Hello Earl,

Does/will the HR20 support multi-room viewing. I would like to view recorded shows on one unit (living room) on another unit (bedroom).

Thanks!


----------



## yensid

I have a DTV/Tivo R10. What functionality difference besides MPEG4/HD will be different? I'm a newby on this one when it comes to dual buffers. Please explain the difference. Thanks!

P.S. This forum is fantastic for troubleshooting and information. And yes new releases!


----------



## rohn_s

I recently purchased an R15. From Earl's review it appears this unit is much more stable than the R15. Wondering if DTV allow me to trade in my R15 for the HR20?


----------



## JohnSorTivo

BrandonH said:


> I don't know what the SDD is but the "Showcases" on the DirecTV DVR are supposed to be a lot different from the ones on our Tivos.


SDD = Service Data Download



BrandonH said:


> What do you think would happen to the buffer on that tuner when its downloading that movie?


Again, do it in the middle of the night, when it has minimal impact on most viewers.

I'm not trying to dig up an old debate. It is what it is. This was just "new" news to me.



KipBond said:


> I rarely watch live TV anymore, but I can see where sports fans would. But, then why not just record the 2 channels you'd be switching between?


Beause I don't want to record them, forcibly tie up both tuners, delete them, etc. I'm just watching them. A commerical comes on, I switch tuners, back up to where the previous show came back from commerical, watch it, a commerical comes, I switch tuners, and the cycle continues. It's just a nice convenience that I've become accustomed to.

Again, no need to re-hash the debate, just didn't know it wasn't going to be there, and am a bit disappointed.


----------



## mongo

Earl, thanks for the review.

From a personal perspective, would you prefer this unit, or the HR10-250 with the 6.3 upgrades?

What are the 3 biggest advantages of this over the HR10-250? What are the 3 biggest advantages of the HR10-250 over this unit?

Also, are you saying this unit does have 30 second skip forward?

Thanks


----------



## ThomC

jdspencer said:


> .....
> As to the lack of dual buffers while watching football. Why not just start recording one of the games, or both, and then play them back.


Often more than 2 channels are in play.
While I realize that only 2 can be buffered, often it's..
Watch Game1
Buffer Game 2
Switch from Game 1 to Game 3 for new buffer
Switch to & watch Game 2 from buffer
Find another game that is not a blowout and start a new buffer (Game 4).
Go back and watch Game 3 from buffer
and so on repeatedly as the games dictate (Sunday Ticket Rocks!!!)
Starting and stopping to make each of these bits recordings would be a pain to say the least.

That said the new unit sounds good, but I will stick with the HR10-250 for as long as I can. (I was told NYC Locals and RSNs will remain mpeg-2 for quite some time).
I can only hope that 6.3 comes along soon so I won't be envying all that's better in the HR20.


----------



## Clint Lamor

mongo said:


> Early, thanks for the review.
> 
> From a personal perspective, would you prefer this unit, or the HR10-250 with the 6.3 upgrades?
> 
> What are the 3 biggest advantages of this over the HR10-250? What are the 3 biggest advantages of the HR10-250 over this unit?
> 
> Also, are you saying this unit does have 30 second skip forward?
> 
> Thanks


The unit has 30 Second Slip which is a high speed fast forward thats automated. This feature is in use on the R15 also. Some like it Some like Tivo's 30 Second Skip more so. I actually like it as I see some stuff I want to look at.


----------



## Tonedeaf

raynman said:


> Hello Earl,
> 
> Does/will the HR20 support multi-room viewing. I would like to view recorded shows on one unit (living room) on another unit (bedroom).
> 
> Thanks!


Not possible on any of the DirecTV DVR's out of the box, unless you "hack" the SD Tivo units.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Raynman... no it doesn't have MRV at this point... not sure if it is going to be a feature later or not.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mongo said:


> Early, thanks for the review.
> 
> From a personal perspective, would you prefer this unit, or the HR10-250 with the 6.3 upgrades?
> 
> What are the 3 biggest advantages of this over the HR10-250? What are the 3 biggest advantages of the HR10-250 over this unit?
> 
> Also, are you saying this unit does have 30 second skip forward?
> 
> Thanks


From a "personal" perspective.... now this me and my situation.
I am selling my HR10...

It is not that the HR10 is not a good unit, and will be better with 6.3

Today... on the table... the HR20 is only modestly better then the HR10, and that really depends on what aspect you are looking at between the boxes. Some areas it is worse, some it is a lot better.. IMHO.

But more so... it is what is comming in the pipeline that has me more intrested.

Two other factors:
I can't recieve my CBS-OTA via the HR10... haven't since the day I got it.
I used the NY CBS feed once it was available, and that will soon be going away (not very soon, but soon enough)..

H20 (not the HR20) was able to tune the CBS-DT OTA signal... and from what I have been told the OTA tuners in the HR20 are better then the H20s..

The 2nd factor..
The market is still good for an HR10 resale. I spent $900 on that unit when it was first released... and if I can recoop some of that cost...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

yensid said:


> I have a DTV/Tivo R10. What functionality difference besides MPEG4/HD will be different? I'm a newby on this one when it comes to dual buffers. Please explain the difference. Thanks!
> 
> P.S. This forum is fantastic for troubleshooting and information. And yes new releases!


Yensid...

We started a second thread for that:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62084


----------



## pmathys

I just ordered the HR20. It will be installed this Saturday. Thank you Earl for your review. I can't wait to try it out. 

Earl - since I'm a new poster, is it OK for me to post the particulars regarding pricing, etc. I do not have an exisiting DVR for those concerned about swapping.

Paul


----------



## raynman

Earl Bonovich said:


> Raynman... no it doesn't have MRV at this point... not sure if it is going to be a feature later or not.


Earl and Tonedeaf,

Thank you - I was hoping it was available, but I guess I'll stick to my H210-250 until MRV is available...it's just inconvenient that you cannot network these units and view recorded shows on any unit...sigh.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pmathys said:


> I just ordered the HR20. It will be installed this Saturday. Thank you Earl for your review. I can't wait to try it out.
> 
> Earl - since I'm a new poster, is it OK for me to post the particulars regarding pricing, etc. I do not have an exisiting DVR for those concerned about swapping.
> 
> Paul


Sure... just post it to this thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=629235#post629235


----------



## Jeremy W

JohnSorTivo said:


> Then it would seem you don't come from a unit where you previously had it...


Actually, I've got two Tivos right now, and I never switch between the two buffers. It's just not a feature that I care about.


----------



## gglockner

upgrade-itis said:


> I wonder how many of the "Pry my HR 10 from my dead hands" people will be around when new HD national channels are added in '07 in MPEG4?


Looking for me? :lol: I've been a TiVo fanatic since my standalone TiVo in 2001. I've sold enough of my friends and family on TiVo that I ought to be getting commissions.

What makes a TiVo so great is that it works reliably and simply. It's one of the few gadgets I've seen where wives beg their husbands to buy it, not the other way around.

The reviews of the R15 and the various DVRs from Dish made me pretty convinced that they weren't in the same league as TiVo. Earl's review of the HR20 gives me hope that someone besides TiVo and Microsoft has figured out how to build a reliable DVR. That said, I'm not going to be the first to adopt the HR20. I'll wait until D* releases more HD channels that I cannot receive via my new HR10.


----------



## bidger

ksqrd said:


> .Other than the obvious reason (i.e., the 10-250 units will effectively be doorstops at some time in the future) why would someone trade in a 10-250 for one of these now?!?
> 
> Someone please help me understand if I'm missing something--thanks in advance.
> 
> KK


Ability to record MPEG-4 RSNs.


----------



## dan8379

bidger said:


> Ability to record MPEG-4 RSNs.


Not to mention those of us who get spotty OTA reception. Nothing more frustrating than pulling up a recorded show on the HR10-250 only to find that CBS decided it didn't want to come in for me at the time I was recording. 30 minutes of unwatchable jibberish is no fun....


----------



## elbodude

gglockner said:


> Looking for me? :lol: I've been a TiVo fanatic since my standalone TiVo in 2001. I've sold enough of my friends and family on TiVo that I ought to be getting commissions.
> 
> What makes a TiVo so great is that it works reliably and simply. It's one of the few gadgets I've seen where wives beg their husbands to buy it, not the other way around.
> 
> The reviews of the R15 and the various DVRs from Dish made me pretty convinced that they weren't in the same league as TiVo. Earl's review of the HR20 gives me hope that someone besides TiVo and Microsoft has figured out how to build a reliable DVR. That said, I'm not going to be the first to adopt the HR20. I'll wait until D* releases more HD channels that I cannot receive via my new HR10.


I know this is a discussion of the new HR20, but...

I just gave up my HR10-250 for a Dish ViP 622. It has the dual buffers, the multi-room viewing and the 30-second skip. I do miss the Tivo interface, but I am getting used to the 622. Plus, I have TONS more HD and my HD locals over the Sat. This new box from D* seems comparable to the 622 minus the dual buffers on the HR20. Hmmm... I just got FOOD network HD, so now the wife is happy.

MY D* account it still active as I "evaluate" E*, but I am tempted to try this HR20.


----------



## dbroome

There were three things I hated about the HR10-250 when I moved to it from the Hughes receivers I had:
1) Speed. The TIVO is abysmally slow
2) The inability to have a one line guide at the bottom of the screen to browse through what is on while still watching tv
3) Multiple Favorite channel lists (one for me, one for my wife and one for the kids)

From reading the review it appears that 1 and 2 are corrected in the hr20. What about number 3? Can I have multiple favorite channel lists?


----------



## TMullenJr

Hey Earl, can you let us know what accessories were included with the unit? Specifically, by any chance did it include an HDMI cable? I'm guessing no, but if I remember right, the HR10 came with the HDMI to DVI adapter, so you never know.


----------



## Jeremy W

dbroome said:


> Can I have multiple favorite channel lists?


You sure can.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

For number 3, you can have 2 favorite lists.


----------



## bidger

jdspencer said:


> So far the review looks good to me. However, it will be a long time before I can even use one (DMA=156). And, DirecTV probably won't do a free swap out with my owned HR10-250 until my DMA actually has locals.
> 
> Would DirecTV even allow subscribers get this unit if they don't yet have their locals?
> 
> As to the lack of dual buffers while watching football. Why not just start recording one of the games, or both, and then play them back.


Hey neighbor.

Well, there is a situation that affects those of us in the NY RSN area and that is, while those with MPEG-4 equipment can catch every HD broadcast by YES on ch. 96, those of us with MPEG-2 equipment have to accept that ch. 95 is now a national MLB HD channel and there will be times when another markets games will bump a YES HD game.

As for not just recording NFL-ST games rather than watching on the buffer, for me I prefer to watch live because just because a game looks like a good matchup on paper, doesn't mean it plays that way on the field.

As far as locals, and you know we're in fairly similar circumstances, we'll see what the coming year brings. The situation with Dish Network and distants may force their hand to 100% coverage. Would D* be far behind if that occurs?

Earl, thanks for the review and I see a lot of things I like. I'm glad that it won't be something TiVo fanatics can feast on like they have the R-15. We need more quality DVRs on the market, not fewer.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

TMullenJr said:


> Hey Earl, can you let us know what accessories were included with the unit? Specifically, by any chance did it include an HDMI cable? I'm guessing no, but if I remember right, the HR10 came with the HDMI to DVI adapter, so you never know.


It came with the component cables (and composite)... no HDMI/DVI where included. pretty much the same as what came with the H20


----------



## YankeeFan

Earl, thanks for a great review. One question about ATSC and MPEG-4. Are the MPEG-4 HD channels the same HD-Lite crap we get in MPEG-2? If they are, I'll wait until the ATSC tuners work. Right now I record all my network feeds via OTA because it looks way better than what comes over the sat.


----------



## mongo

Earl Bonovich said:


> From a "personal" perspective.... now this me and my situation.
> I am selling my HR10...
> 
> It is not that the HR10 is not a good unit, and will be better with 6.3
> 
> Today... on the table... the HR20 is only modestly better then the HR10, and that really depends on what aspect you are looking at between the boxes. Some areas it is worse, some it is a lot better.. IMHO.
> 
> But more so... it is what is comming in the pipeline that has me more intrested.
> 
> Two other factors:
> I can't recieve my CBS-OTA via the HR10... haven't since the day I got it.
> I used the NY CBS feed once it was available, and that will soon be going away (not very soon, but soon enough)..
> 
> H20 (not the HR20) was able to tune the CBS-DT OTA signal... and from what I have been told the OTA tuners in the HR20 are better then the H20s..
> 
> The 2nd factor..
> The market is still good for an HR10 resale. I spent $900 on that unit when it was first released... and if I can recoop some of that cost...


Earl,
When you say "What is coming in the pipeline", do you mean on the HR20, or on another box that may be coming?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

YankeeFan said:


> Earl, thanks for a great review. One question about ATSC and MPEG-4. Are the MPEG-4 HD channels the same HD-Lite crap we get in MPEG-2? If they are, I'll wait until the ATSC tuners work. Right now I record all my network feeds via OTA because it looks way better than what comes over the sat.


In general... and this is from my Eyes to my brain, on my Plasma TV.

The MPEG-4 versions of the channel where just as good as the ones I got via OTA... now this was on the H20.... and it should be very similar to that of the HR20.

I can say, that shows such as Stargate on Sci/Fi have looked MUCH better, then they did from my DSR704... could be the connections (HDMI vs S-Video) but.....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mongo said:


> Earl,
> When you say "What is coming in the pipeline", do you mean on the HR20, or on another box that may be coming?


 No, nothing that big or exciting...

Actually they are the size of a "remote"


----------



## bidger

dan8379 said:


> Not to mention those of us who get spotty OTA reception.


Right, I'd heard that H20 had much better ATSC tuner capability than the HR10-250.


----------



## elbodude

Earl, great review.

When recording a program on one tuner and you want to change the channel, do you get a warning message about the current recording or does it automatically go to the other chanel on the other tuner like the HR10 does?

Thanks!
-elbo


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bidger said:


> Right, I'd heard that H20 had much better ATSC tuner capability than the HR10-250.


That is an understatement...  (IMHO)


----------



## ad301

bidger said:


> Earl, thanks for the review and I see a lot of things I like. I'm glad that it won't be something TiVo fanatics can feast on like they have the R-15. We need more quality DVRs on the market, not fewer.


We should probably hold off on making a judgement on the hr20's quality until some users actually get a chance to use it, don't you think? I plan on making my own personal judgement after I can use it myself (depending on the return policy  ).


----------



## Earl Bonovich

elbodude said:


> Earl, great review.
> 
> When recording a program on one tuner and you want to change the channel, do you get a warning message about the current recording or does it automatically go to the other chanel on the other tuner like the HR10 does?
> 
> Thanks!
> -elbo


Most of the time, the HR20 will try to do the recording on the background tuner.

But if by chance, it is on the foreground tuner (and no longer recording something on the background tuner)... it will just go ahead and change.

And of course, if you have something recording on both...
It will ask what you want to do.


----------



## rb5505

naldoron said:


> I was able to call customer retention and get them to note on my account that the swap out will be free for me when they are available in my area (Milwaukee). I think she said that had to with how long you have had the HR10-250, but I am not sure on that fact.


i was told yesterday basically the same thing. because we have the hr10-250 now and because we have the protection plan, she noted to our account that the upgrade to the new hd unit would be free (sometime later this year or early '07 she thought).


----------



## aburdick1

Earl,

Thanks for the review; that's a lot of very helpful information. I had just a couple follow-up questions:

1. I was very excited to hear that the HR20 will allow you to send HD content to the TV via HDMI or component. My question: have you tried watching HD content sent to the TV via component? If so, how does the picture quality compare?

2. When you say that the HR20 contains an ATSC tuner (and I realize there's some confusion about whether it's active or not), does that mean I would still need to purchase an OTA antenna to plug into the HR20, to receive any OTA HD local channels?

Thanks,
Andy Burdick
Chicago, IL


----------



## bobnielsen

aburdick1 said:


> 2. When you say that the HR20 contains an ATSC tuner (and I realize there's some confusion about whether it's active or not), does that mean I would still need to purchase an OTA antenna to plug into the HR20, to receive any OTA HD local channels?


Yes, just as with the HR10 and H20.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Andy...

For #1: Didn't try it, but I will... probably not till tomorrow though
For #2: There is no confusion... it is not active right now. , Yes... if you want any of the OTA stations, you will need an OTA antenna. (This would be for items such as: WGN-DT, WCIU-DT, WTTW-DT, WPWR-DT)
WBBM, WLS, WFLD, WMAQ (I think that is CBS), they are available via SAT if you upgrade to the AT9 dish.


----------



## Lynskyn

Are the composite outputs always active on this box (I have to change to 480i on my HR10 for them to work).. Thanks


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lynskyn said:


> Are the composite outputs always active on this box (I have to change to 480i on my HR10 for them to work).. Thanks


Yes...
All the video and screen shot captures you see in the review... where done with the unit set to 1080i...

The Mini-DV camcorder where connected via composite connections


----------



## Lynskyn

Thanks! Now I want one.


----------



## Nick

Good job, Earl. Thanks for the blood, sweat & tears.

Uh, is that a Mr. Potato(e) Head beneath your monitor? :grin:


----------



## pappys

upgrade-itis said:


> Nice job Earl.
> 
> I would prefer dual buffers as well, but realize that this is the ONLY HD DVR option to get new HD content from D*.
> 
> Now I have another forum to read each day.


I was so GEEKED up when I saw this forum today. Until I read only one buffer :nono2: I will have to just understand, that IF I want HD locals in my L/R with DVR functionality, this will be the best way to get it.


----------



## pappys

ThomC said:


> Often more than 2 channels are in play.
> While I realize that only 2 can be buffered, often it's..
> Watch Game1
> Buffer Game 2
> Switch from Game 1 to Game 3 for new buffer
> Switch to & watch Game 2 from buffer
> Find another game that is not a blowout and start a new buffer (Game 4).
> Go back and watch Game 3 from buffer
> and so on repeatedly as the games dictate (Sunday Ticket Rocks!!!)
> Starting and stopping to make each of these bits recordings would be a pain to say the least.
> 
> That's exactly how I do my watching as well


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Nick said:


> Good job, Earl. Thanks for the blood, sweat & tears.
> 
> Uh, is that a Mr. Potato(e) Head beneath your monitor? :grin:


Your welcome...
I had to go back and look back at the photo.

No that is a "clay" project, from when I was in 4th grade....
Darth Tater and SpudTrooper over to my left ontop of my cable-modem..


----------



## JBernardK

First, does it have two OTA tuners like the HR10, or just one? Will you be able to record any two channels like the HR10?

I must say I am somewhat concerned that the OTA tuners and the SATA port will never be "activated". D* has a long history--from the first units with serial ports--of including features that never get activated.


----------



## pappys

Earl, I am in the same Chicago market as you. I have no OTA. Will I still get the local HD's before the ATSC is activated? Maybe a dumb question....


----------



## heathramos

Earl is even mentioned on Gizmodo for his review.

Now he is really famous.


----------



## fpd917

With no atsc tuners will I be able to get my locals in HD using the Hr20. I am outside of Nashville, which has there locals available via D* with mpeg4, yet I am too far away to use an antenna. One of the main reasons I want the HR20 is to get locals via mpeg4


----------



## skinnyJM

Excellent Review!
Nice work Earl.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> First, does it have two OTA tuners like the HR10, or just one? Will you be able to record any two channels like the HR10?
> 
> I must say I am somewhat concerned that the OTA tuners and the SATA port will never be "activated". D* has a long history--from the first units with serial ports--of including features that never get activated.


Unconditionally I can say... the OTA tuners will be activated.
And when they are, it will be two just like the HR10.

The eSATA they are EXTREMELY intrested in... and if things go they way we discussed... it would be a pretty good solution.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pappys said:


> Earl, I am in the same Chicago market as you. I have no OTA. Will I still get the local HD's before the ATSC is activated? Maybe a dumb question....


Very much so.
So long as you have the AT9 dish.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

fpd917 said:


> With no atsc tuners will I be able to get my locals in HD using the Hr20. I am outside of Nashville, which has there locals available via D* with mpeg4, yet I am too far away to use an antenna. One of the main reasons I want the HR20 is to get locals via mpeg4


Depends on the DMA layout.
If you are still in Nashville's DMA... then you should be able to get them.
If not... then you would have to talk with DirecTV about other options... such as DNS feeds.


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

BrandonH said:


> It seems to me that the answer to why there aren't dual buffers is a pretty easy one. Once DirecTV activates the Showcases feature on these boxes they want to keep the second tuner free as much as possible to be able to download these Showcases. Having to keep dual buffers would essentially keep both tuners busy at all times and there wouldn't be an available tuner to download the Showcases. You would need a third sat tuner for the Showcases feature to work and have dual buffers available at all times.


My hats off to Earl and DBSTalk for breaking with an actual in-depth review of this great DIRECTV development. The significance here is not just the fabulous HD DVR product, the greater value to all of us and DIRECTV is how this product poises them to roll-out tons of Nationwide HD channels with their tremendous untaped capacity of their MPEG-4 and older MPEG-2 satellites and efficient compression.

BrandonH, you are 100% correct, however, this does not mean that we will never see a dual buffer. It is possible that when DIRECTV wants to push content to the second buffer you may be able to override DIRECTV use while you are actively using the DVR. The DVR may be able to be programmed to try later if the second tuner or even when just viewing live TV with one tuner in use within the past hour or so.

I was told the ATSC tuner will be the very best ever made. It will be very sensitive and extremely selective so multi-path will not be a problem.

This is very exciting times for HD consumers and DIRECTV.

Great new HD DVR, Bravo DIRECTV!

-Robert


----------



## Alan Gordon

I LOVE my HD-TiVo, and I will be the first to state my displeasure with DirecTV for no longer offering a TiVo option since TiVo is my favorite consumer electronics device that I own. Not to mention, with the exception of the HD usage meter, I could care less about any other features I've read about (PPV VOD, Caller ID, faster GUI, etc), but with cable out of my reach, if I want to continue receiving HDTV cable channels, I'll have to upgrade to the HR20, and stay content with my SD DirecTiVos, Stand-Alone TiVo, and hopefully, a TiVo Series 3 within the next six months, so I'm willing to give it a try.

There are some features and future features about the R15 I do like, though. One is the simultaneous outputs (my Hughes HTL-HD did this allowing me to feed a TV in my bedroom as well, and I had to get fancier to allow me to continue doing this with the HD-TiVo. This should at least simplify things a little bit due to not having to switch resolutions. Another thing is remembering that DirecTV REALLY intends to push VOD with this unit, with 1000s of hours of content instead of just the current PPV content used by the R15. Some of it via satellite, the rest via Broadband, which is why I'm intending to hook it up to our wireless network... and don't I remember them saying that you can play media from your computer via your network (ala stand-alone TiVo and XBOX360?). 

While I can't say if this is a like or dislike, remember that DirecTV intends to redesign their GUI Q42006/1Q2007. 

That being said, I was excited to read your review Earl. While I didn't understand half of it due to not owning a R15, I have a question. You mentioned that you didn't have any reboots, but did you have any missed/screwed up recordings like I've read about from some R15 users?

While I have other questions, most of them involve the currently disabled ATSC tuners... so they will have to wait.

I would be putting off getting an HR20 until I was missing out on something in MPEG4, but with me being an East coast DNS customer, I will probably be forced to late this year or early next year if I wanted to keep receiving them. Should DirecTV add a HD channel when they add DNS versions of "The CW", I will more than likely be calling to get it... plus, it will be nice to be able to go ahead and get the 5-LNB dish installed...

~Alan<~~~~~~~~~~~~~Who has the chance to use a Sony HDR-FX1 1080i HD camcorder today... though not in the way he wanted to...


----------



## dvrblogger

harley3k said:


> This has been at least a year and half in the making, and it has less features than the HR10. But if I want to get any new HD channels (MPEG4), I have to upgrade and pay $399 (unless I compalin to Retention)?
> 
> I'm probably being way to critical, but simply - I just don't get it.
> 
> How long ago was the HR10 released? Where is the differentiator in their product now? Why would I pay a premium - higher monthly subs, pay for the receivers that I don't own / can't hack, fewer HD channels... D* better hang on to their exclusive rights to the NFL Ticket...
> 
> -h


You will most likely have OTA channel before the end of the year and the picture in guide, fast scrolling,better search, support for MPEG4 HD which will mean 100-150 HD national channels will be well worth the wait. The TIVO is 2-3 year old technology. The HR20 will also have support for portable devices and PCs coming in the future. ANyone who is in love with only Tivo will not be convinced everyone else will be very happy with the new box.


----------



## SolidState

I live in the LA DMA, but had a few questions. If someone can point me to a thread that may have my answers, that would be appreciated (or answer them here ).

First, I have two HR10's, both with the 2 ATSC tuners activated. If I want to ADD an HR20 to my setup, I know I'll get a new dish (AT9?), but will I still be able to utilize my 2 HR10's as-is? I'm not ready to give up my TiVos(with HDD upgrades) + OTA just yet, but I am interested in the MP4 capability.

Second, which channels would I be able to get above and beyond my SAT-HD and OTA-HD channels I already receive (I get ALL Los Angeles area OTA stations, yea!)?

I'm not a TiVo-only person, I also have an SA8300HD (for HowardTV), and while it has a small HDD, it records what I want reliably, but it doesn't do dual-tuning too well(the 2nd tuner always reset to channel 0), which I miss, but it's not a deal-breaker. I'm just an early-adopter who wants as many HD channels as I can get.

Damn my 18-month old Plasma and it's limited inputs!

Solid <~~~~~~~~~~~~~ who HAS an HDR-FX1, but no HR20 to capture screenshots!


----------



## jdspencer

BrandonH said:


> I don't know what the SDD is but the "Showcases" on the DirecTV DVR are supposed to be a lot different from the ones on our Tivos. It is supposed to be more like a Video on Demand Feature with PPV's and everything. It's got to download all that content sometime. For example downloading a two hour PPV movie for for the video on demand feature to store on the hard drive for later use will take two hours on one of the tuners. What do you think would happen to the buffer on that tuner when its downloading that movie?


Is it possible that the buffer wouldn't be needed during a movie download? Only the tuner, recording directly to the reserved space on the HD.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> I have a question. You mentioned that you didn't have any reboots, but did you have any missed/screwed up recordings like I've read about from some R15 users?


I haven't watched everything that has been recorded, but to date... nothing has been screwed up.

Everything that I "thought" was to record, has been recorded.
Everytihing that I "thought" was NOT going to record, hasn't recorded.

hope that answers the questions.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

SolidState said:


> I live in the LA DMA, but had a few questions. If someone can point me to a thread that may have my answers, that would be appreciated (or answer them here ).
> 
> First, I have two HR10's, both with the 2 ATSC tuners activated. If I want to ADD an HR20 to my setup, I know I'll get a new dish (AT9?), but will I still be able to utilize my 2 HR10's as-is? I'm not ready to give up my TiVos(with HDD upgrades) + OTA just yet, but I am interested in the MP4 capability.
> 
> Second, which channels would I be able to get above and beyond my SAT-HD and OTA-HD channels I already receive (I get ALL Los Angeles area OTA stations, yea!)?


 
If you get the appropriate multiswitch (Zinwell-WB68 or one of the new Spaun ones), you will be perfectly fine running all of those boxes on one AT9 dish. I currenttly have 1 HR10-250, 1 DSR704, 2 R15s, 1 R10, a Samsung Fliptop all hooked up..

As for additional channels... none yet.


----------



## chriswaz

Fantastic.. I've been emailing and calling Directv every couple of weeks since May waiting for this (too bad it missed the World Cup!)...

Are you using the HR20 with the AT9 dish? ANd/or the WB68 multiswitch?

I'm in Phoenix, so I'm hoping the next areas are those close to LA!

Thanks.
-----
- Chris


----------



## Drew2k

Earl, Thanks for the review. Great job as usual!

The speed with which the HR20 re-orders titles in the prioritizer is impressive, but the HR10-250 re-orders titles just as quickly. The problem with the HR10-250 is that when you try to LEAVE the Season Pass manager after re-ordering, the box sits at the Please Wait message for too long.

I'm assuming the prioritizer doesn't dynamically update the To Do list as you re-order the items, but waits to update the To-Do list only when you are finished ordering the titles, just like on the HR10-250. 

What happens when you leave the Prioritizer after re-ordering?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I just posted an addendum with some more screen shots:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=629427&postcount=17

And I just tested: Composite, Component, HDMI... all work at the same time.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

chriswaz said:


> Fantastic.. I've been emailing and calling Directv every couple of weeks since May waiting for this (too bad it missed the World Cup!)...
> 
> Are you using the HR20 with the AT9 dish? ANd/or the WB68 multiswitch?
> 
> I'm in Phoenix, so I'm hoping the next areas are those close to LA!
> 
> Thanks.
> -----
> - Chris


Yes, the HR20 is with the AT9 dish... 
The AT9 feeds to a 6802 (I still need to get that replaced with a WB68).
The 6802 connects directly to the HR20, and also sends 4 feeds to my multiswitch array (the ones from my Phase-III days), that power al the other units.


----------



## Drew2k

Another question for you Earl ... (Bet you can't wait for others to get the HR20 so you can go have dinner or something!)

I am also interested in how the HR20 handles CC. On the HR10-250, it's over 12 keystrokes to turn on or off CC, because you have to dig through the Settings Menus. 

Does the HR20 remote have a dedicated CC key? Or is there an onscreen shortcut menu to turn CC on and off? 

Thanks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

drew2k said:


> Earl, Thanks for the review. Great job as usual!
> 
> The speed with which the HR20 re-orders titles in the prioritizer is impressive, but the HR10-250 re-orders titles just as quickly. The problem with the HR10-250 is that when you try to LEAVE the Season Pass manager after re-ordering, the box sits at the Please Wait message for too long.
> 
> I'm assuming the prioritizer doesn't dynamically update the To Do list as you re-order the items, but waits to update the To-Do list only when you are finished ordering the titles, just like on the HR10-250.
> 
> What happens when you leave the Prioritizer after re-ordering?


Ahh... I did clip that out of the video.
It goes right back to where you ever you came from... no "Please Wait" screens.

I was showing the prioritizing speed, as any one knows with an R15....... it is night and day (performance wise)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

drew2k said:


> Another question for you Earl ... (Bet you can't wait for others to get the HR20 so you can go have dinner or something!)
> 
> I am also interested in how the HR20 handles CC. On the HR10-250, it's over 12 keystrokes to turn on or off CC, because you have to dig through the Settings Menus.
> 
> Does the HR20 remote have a dedicated CC key? Or is there an onscreen shortcut menu to turn CC on and off?
> 
> Thanks.


I am a "big" man... even you guys don't keep me from my dinner.
I just posted some screen shots for the CC.

To enable it... about 6 clicks, and 4 of those are arrowing down an onscreen menu (you still get the pip in the top left)

There is not a dedicated menu.

But you have your choice of a TON of options for the CC.
The Font, the Size of the Font, the Fore Ground Color, the BackGround Color, how translucent.... a ton of options.


----------



## fpd917

Earl Bonovich said:


> Depends on the DMA layout.
> If you are still in Nashville's DMA... then you should be able to get them.
> If not... then you would have to talk with DirecTV about other options... such as DNS feeds.


I am in Nashville's DMA, so therefore I should get them, correct??


----------



## Drew2k

Thanks for the speedy answers on my Prioritizing question. 

I realize CC is not the most used feature, but I'm surprised and a little disappointed that the only way to turn it on or off is still buried in sub-menus. It's a few less keystrokes than the HR10, but still ... 

(Now, really, go eat something! Your dinner _must_ be getting cold!)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

fpd917 said:


> I am in Nashville's DMA, so therefore I should get them, correct??


You should, for that you can contact DirecTV today and ask and get a for sure answer


----------



## Earl Bonovich

drew2k said:


> Thanks for the speedy answers on my Prioritizing question.
> 
> I realize CC is not the most used feature, but I'm surprised and a little disappointed that the only way to turn it on or off is still buried in sub-menus. It's a few less keystrokes than the HR10, but still ...
> 
> (Now, really, go eat something! Your dinner _must_ be getting cold!)


Actually CC is very important, and not to those that "need" it.
CC works great in Bars, and when having parties... and I am glad it is there.

I can understand why it isn't on the remote, as usually the "constant" users of CC, don't turn it on and off...

I already ate... but I am going to go and play some games with my son....


----------



## lovswr

Earl Bonovich said:


> As far as I know... no reall information is going over the network port.


Earl if you are at all familiar with just about any *nix distribution, you can use a program called Ethereal. It will tell you eveything, & I do mean everything, that you ever wanted to know about ethernet connections.

edit: Goodnes gracious, where are my manners!  Mr. Bonovich, I, as well as all the others, say thank you, thank you, thank you!!


----------



## ajwillys

lovswr said:


> Earl if you are at all familiar with just about any *nix distribution, you can use a program called Ethereal. It will tell you eveything, & I do mean everything, that you ever wanted to know about ethernet connections.


Actually, Ethereal has very little to do with *nix other than it is preinstalled on most Linux distributions. By that I mean its also available on Windows, Mac, etc..... Also, its called Wireshark now but it is an excellent program.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> I haven't watched everything that has been recorded, but to date... nothing has been screwed up.
> 
> Everything that I "thought" was to record, has been recorded.
> Everytihing that I "thought" was NOT going to record, hasn't recorded.
> 
> hope that answers the questions.


It did! Thanks Earl!! 

~Alan<~~~~~Who is still waiting on the OTA tuners to be activated to ask more questions...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually CC is very important, and not to those that "need" it.
> CC works great in Bars, and when having parties... and I am glad it is there.
> 
> I can understand why it isn't on the remote, as usually the "constant" users of CC, don't turn it on and off...


I use it a lot at my house too (it can get pretty loud), but use my TV's CC instead of the HR10-250's.

~Alan


----------



## lovswr

Earl Bonovich said:


> --SNIP--
> 
> I actually already have another goodie... nothing of this scale... but that review should be next week.


Hmmm, is there a *slim* chance that you may drop us a *line* as to what it might be, beforehand?


----------



## MarkJones

Thanks for the great review, Earl.

I have a question about cabling. I have two SAT cables coming to my HR10-250. I use diplexers before and after one of the cables to carry OTA signals from my attic OTA antenna.

With the HR20-700 and AT-9 antenna, can you still use diplexers for the OTA signals or do you have to run a third cable for OTA?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lovswr said:


> Hmmm, is there a *slim* chance that you may drop us a *line* as to what it might be, beforehand?


Nah... it isn't the Slimline.... To keep you all from guessing too much... It is about the size of a remote.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MarkJones said:


> Thanks for the great review, Earl.
> 
> I have a question about cabling. I have two SAT cables coming to my HR10-250. I use diplexers before and after one of the cables to carry OTA signals from my attic OTA antenna.
> 
> With the HR20-700 and AT-9 antenna, can you still use diplexers for the OTA signals or do you have to run a third cable for OTA?


No you can't... And it is not because of the HR20.
The MPEG-4 signal is going to be carried in the frequency range that the diplexors use to carry the OTA signal.

However, there is some technology in the works that will allow you to only use 1 cable to feed the SAT tuners. Not sure when it is going to be released, or all the details on it though.


----------



## lovswr

pmathys said:


> I just ordered the HR20. It will be installed this Saturday. Thank you Earl for your review. I can't wait to try it out.
> 
> Earl - since I'm a new poster, is it OK for me to post the particulars regarding pricing, etc. I do not have an exisiting DVR for those concerned about swapping.
> 
> Paul


If you don't mind, what are the terms? Are you leasing or outright buying. Do you already have a HD Tivo & this is a swap or are you coming into this new? I guess the $64,000.00 dollar question is, how much does this thing cost? 

edit: Ok I jsut saw the answer in the price thread. I'm so exicted that I got a little ahead of myself. I'm in Atlanta, so I feel ok that we will be in the next 40 markets that are due in the "Fall". Now the BIG question is...when does Fall start!


----------



## Alan Gordon

SolidState said:


> Second, which channels would I be able to get above and beyond my SAT-HD and OTA-HD channels I already receive (I get ALL Los Angeles area OTA stations, yea!)?
> 
> Solid <~~~~~~~~~~~~~ who HAS an HDR-FX1, but no HR20 to capture screenshots!


I got to borrow it from some people I know who are planning on using it for some events, but turns out that I don't have any firewire cables to plug it into my computer to play with the video... oh well, maybe I can use it again soon...

Now, back to being on-topic. Earl was incorrect. With a HR20 (or a H20) and a 5LNB dish, you will gain FOX Sports Net West. Other than that though, he was correct when he said nothing.

~Alan


----------



## DCSholtis

heathramos said:


> Earl is even mentioned on Gizmodo for his review.
> 
> Now he is really famous.


I saw that earlier. Bout fell off my chair when I saw them refer to the picture of the rear of the unit as an "ass shot". :lol:


----------



## bpayne

RAD said:


> Thanks for the review.
> 
> On the SAT1 connection it also says (FTM) next to it, what does that mean???





Earl Bonovich said:


> Hmm... no idea.. didn't even notice it the first time.


FTM stands for Frequency Translation Module. The FTM system will be a change in direction for DirecTV towards a band-stacked system similar to the DishPro system. The FTM architecture is capable of some different things that the DishPro system can't do- but it will allow for the standard stuff band-stacked systems enable- 1 line DVRs being the most significant one.

Think of the FTM not in terms of a multiswitch/stacker "combo" and more like an interface hub. This "hub" will have 6 inputs from the dish and 4 outputs to the receivers. Lines are then split off from the hub with power pass splitters. There will also be an interface for a telephone connection. IRDs will no longer have to have hard lines ran to them- they can "dial out" over the coax to the FTM and then get to the NID. This will be in addition to the wireless phone jacks that will be built into the next generation of standard IRDs (D12).

I do not know if there is going to be a network interface- it doesn't appear there is. I've seen mock-ups of it having an antenna port. This is not meant for OTA but intuition says WI-FI.



Earl Bonovich said:


> No you can't... And it is not because of the HR20.
> The MPEG-4 signal is going to be carried in the frequency range that the diplexors use to carry the OTA signal.
> 
> However, there is some technology in the works that will allow you to only use 1 cable to feed the SAT tuners. Not sure when it is going to be released, or all the details on it though.


Using the FTM means no more needing a BBC- yes, in case no one could guess- the BBC is an engineering "band-aid" until the FTM could be rolled out. This also means that with an FTM system, you're free to diplex again and it will not interfere with the 250-750mhz "B-Band".

I don't have an ETA on the FTM, but don't look for it to be rolled out until the D12 comes out. Also, I've gotten conflicting reports whether or not the R15 is FTM compatible or not. My guess is that it is not so expect a new SD DVR to appear before the FTM hits the streets.

Why go to the FTM now? Why is DTV going to the FTM at all? The people I've talked to have all said the same thing- DirecTV _had_ to go to the FTM architecture once it decided to release a product like the HMC. 4 tuners, 5-7 satellite slots, can you imagine 4 home run RG-6 to each one of those? From that standpoint, the FTM system is kind of a no-brainer I guess.

I've been told that August 28 will be the day the that OTA tuners are enabled. This was speculation on the part of my source so YMMV.

And now for bad news- the RJ45 port is not specifically meant for a network connection in order for the HR-20 to dial out over the internet although I imagine that functionality is intended over the long run. The primary function for the ethernet connection is for VOD.


----------



## bjflynn04

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nah... it isn't the Slimline.... To keep you all from guessing too much... It is about the size of a remote.


That's because it is one of the new Directv Remotes isn't it.


----------



## Herdfan

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nah... it isn't the Slimline.... To keep you all from guessing too much... It is about the size of a remote.


Is D* going to enable the functionality to one of these: http://www.rcaaudiovideo.com/en-US/callout.html

Note: This was in one of D*'s webcasts, so I'm not making it up.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Earl -- you've done all of us a great service.

Small question for anyone who's been switched. Do they let you keep your old dish? Or do they take it away as a "trophy" to prove they did their job?

I'd like to put my [hopefully, soon-to-be] old P3 over on the guest house; so, visitors can receive some of the SD channels we acquired with the addition of the 3rd bird.


----------



## bs0

Earl - u can bump/move this if you like, but is there anywhere i could see a comparison between the dish vip622 and the directvh20??

thanks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> Now, back to being on-topic. Earl was incorrect. With a HR20 (or a H20) and a 5LNB dish, you will gain FOX Sports Net West. Other than that though, he was correct when he said nothing.
> ~Alan


You are right... I forgot about the RSN's being added.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Herdfan said:


> Is D* going to enable the functionality to one of these: http://www.rcaaudiovideo.com/en-US/callout.html
> 
> Note: This was in one of D*'s webcasts, so I'm not making it up.


Yes... that is going to be part of the DirecTV2Go initiative... however, i don't have any additional details about it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Ed Campbell said:


> Earl -- you've done all of us a great service.
> 
> Small question for anyone who's been switched. Do they let you keep your old dish? Or do they take it away as a "trophy" to prove they did their job?
> 
> I'd like to put my [hopefully, soon-to-be] old P3 over on the guest house; so, visitors can receive some of the SD channels we acquired with the addition of the 3rd bird.


They took mine... but I am sur eyou could probably request to keep it..
Might cost though instead of being a free upgrade.


----------



## pappys

Alan Gordon said:


> I LOVE my HD-TiVo, and I will be the first to state my displeasure with DirecTV for no longer offering a TiVo option since TiVo is my favorite consumer electronics device that I own.


I sincerely don't think you are the first. There are plenty of people in the other forums that don't like D* dropping Tivo. I LIKE Tivo, I am willing to try other things.

My only concern is TWF. Hope the wife likes the new format, and adapts to it. She JUST started using the harmony remote that I bought 5 months ago, after I put up the D* remote.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bs0 said:


> Earl - u can bump/move this if you like, but is there anywhere i could see a comparison between the dish vip622 and the directvh20??
> 
> thanks.


I know I can't answer you question... but I am sure one will be done soon.


----------



## pappys

Earl Bonovich said:


> I just posted an addendum with some more screen shots:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=629427&postcount=17
> 
> And I just tested: Composite, Component, HDMI... all work at the same time.


Ahh, great news that all outputs work!


----------



## Capmeister

bidger said:


> Right, I'd heard that H20 had much better ATSC tuner capability than the HR10-250.


This is true for me. My H20 gets better reception than my HR-10. Stong Flint stations (I'm between Flint and Lansing and have my antenna pointed at lansing) don't come in on my HR-10, but DO come in on my H20. Very impressive. I'm hoping the HR20 is similar when their ATSC tuner are enabled (I won't try it if it's not) but for right now, I'll be watching the next six months and might try one next spring if the reviews continue to be good. I'm excited.


----------



## SolidState

Alan Gordon said:


> I got to borrow it from some people I know who are planning on using it for some events, but turns out that I don't have any firewire cables to plug it into my computer to play with the video... oh well, maybe I can use it again soon...
> 
> Now, back to being on-topic. Earl was incorrect. With a HR20 (or a H20) and a 5LNB dish, you will gain FOX Sports Net West. Other than that though, he was correct when he said nothing.
> 
> ~Alan


Thanks Earl and Alan for the info. I'll do some checking to see what kind of HD content they provide.

The FX1 is a sweet camera, but I lack the computer horsepower (you need a lot) to actually edit my footage. Good thing there's the 8 DV tapes for $20 at Costco -- I'm building a library of footage to edit later this year when I get a new comp.

Back to topic...


----------



## yensid

Any idea if the HR20 can output to a DVD Burner or VHS tape? I know my R10 can.

Thanks again Earl for all your info and help!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

yensid said:


> Any idea if the HR20 can output to a DVD Burner or VHS tape? I know my R10 can.
> 
> Thanks again Earl for all your info and help!


Most certainly it could...
Since it outputs as 480i via the composite outputs...
You will be able to record on your DVD burner, or VHS Tape *AND* watch it in HD on your TV.


----------



## REALLYTANGY

I'm guessing there is no Gigabit on this box right? Anyone know if other iterations/vendors will release with Gigabit?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

REALLYTANGY said:


> I'm guessing there is no Gigabit on this box right? Anyone know if other iterations/vendors will release with Gigabit?


You know what... I don't know.
I'll drag home a gigabit switch from work to see if it lights up the 1000 indicator.

(My home network is centered on a 100 switch)


----------



## ToddinVA

Earl Bonovich said:


> Dual Buffers....
> 
> Ultimately it is in DirecTV's control, hence why I say "Never say Never"
> But... I would have to put it higher then 90% that Dual Live Buffers, won't make it to HR20 and R15.
> 
> Sadly, I can't share the reasons why.
> I agree with some of them, disagree with some of them as well.
> 
> As of this moment, I don't know of any plans to add them.
> Sorry... but that is just what I know, and my gut fealing on it.


That would be a shame if they don't eventually support dual buffers. It would be a showstopper for me. I use it all the time. And of course that and the lack of the Suggestions feature really make it less usable than the HDTiVo. I like some of the features you are describing, but they'll have to take my HDTiVo from my cold dead hands, especially once 6.3 comes out.... :lol:


----------



## ToddinVA

BTW, what fast forward speeds does it support? I assume you can FF faster than 3x.  TiVos can FF at 60x....


----------



## Alan Gordon

wes_lause said:


> 5. Could they add a way in Parental control (ala adult) to bock any content or channels from even be keyed into via the remote ?


Granted, I don't record anything that I care whether someone sees or not, BUT I'd really like it if you can lock out some programs from even showing on the Now Playing List (or MyVod or whatever it's called). I think Stand-Alone TiVo's with KidZone enabled does this (I've never activated KidZone, so I'm not sure). I think this would be a really cool feature for those with kids... or if you're just ashamed of having 50 episodes of "Married With Children" or pretty much ANY reality show on there! 

~Alan


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The 1x, 2x, 3x are the arbitrary numbers you see on the screen.

3x on the HR20 is about the same as 3x on the DTiVos


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> Granted, I don't record anything that I care whether someone sees or not, BUT I'd really like it if you can lock out some programs from even showing on the Now Playing List (or MyVod or whatever it's called). I think Stand-Alone TiVo's with KidZone enabled does this (I've never activated KidZone, so I'm not sure). I think this would be a really cool feature for those with kids... or if you're just ashamed of having 50 episodes of "Married With Children" or pretty much ANY reality show on there!
> 
> ~Alan


The feature was just recently added the latest build of the R15.
So I would expect it to be added to the HR20 relatively soon.


----------



## REALLYTANGY

Earl Bonovich said:


> You know what... I don't know.
> I'll drag home a gigabit switch from work to see if it lights up the 1000 indicator.
> 
> (My home network is centered on a 100 switch)


Much appreciated EB


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> The feature was just recently added the latest build of the R15.
> So I would expect it to be added to the HR20 relatively soon.


Cool!! Is it by shows that you can configure, or is it by rating or channel?

This is another feature about the +DVR that I like (granted it's also a TiVo feature, but not a DirecTiVo feature)...

~Alan


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> Cool!! Is it by shows that you can configure, or is it by rating or channel?
> 
> This is another feature about the +DVR that I like (granted it's also a TiVo feature, but not a DirecTiVo feature)...
> 
> ~Alan


I am not 100% sure how it figures it out.
I think it is a hard code of the exact adult channels numbers.

When you enable it, the adult channels don't exist any more to the system.
I will have to check how it handles Recordings.... (I haven't recorded a program from those channels in a while).

The other parental controls work liek the other boxes, where you have to enter a 4 digit code to play it back... but you would still see the listings.


----------



## ToddinVA

Earl Bonovich said:


> The 1x, 2x, 3x are the arbitrary numbers you see on the screen.
> 
> 3x on the HR20 is about the same as 3x on the DTiVos


That's what I figured, but I wanted to make sure...

Good review EB!


----------



## directvfreak

With this unit, do you still need to use external B-Band modules or are they inside the unit already?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Okay... I am checking out for a while...
Time to go use that box a little bit tonight... instead of talking about it.

See ya in the morning (well maybe a little bit later tonight)


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not 100% sure how it figures it out.
> I think it is a hard code of the exact adult channels numbers.
> 
> When you enable it, the adult channels don't exist any more to the system.
> I will have to check how it handles Recordings.... (I haven't recorded a program from those channels in a while).
> 
> The other parental controls work liek the other boxes, where you have to enter a 4 digit code to play it back... but you would still see the listings.


Oh, well, it's not that interesting to me if it only works with adult channels. I was hoping you could customize them a little more...

~Alan


----------



## Earl Bonovich

directvfreak said:


> With this unit, do you still need to use external B-Band modules or are they inside the unit already?


No external B-Band moudles necessary (well... there wasn't one include, and no mention of it in the box)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> Oh, well, it's not that interesting to me if it only works with adult channels. I was hoping you could customize them a little more...
> 
> ~Alan


It is a good suggestion though...
When we start the "suggestions" thread... be sure to post it.


----------



## nx211

Earl Bonovich said:


> Most certainly it could...
> Since it outputs as 480i via the composite outputs...
> You will be able to record on your DVD burner, or VHS Tape *AND* watch it in HD on your TV.


Earl, what do the component outputs send, a 480i/p or 1080i signal?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

nx211 said:


> Earl, what do the component outputs send, a 480i or 1080i signal?


The component outputs push the output selected on the box... so 1080i if you are set to 1080i..
the composit outputs (yellow and S-Video) send 480i


----------



## mongo

Earl,
When recording two programs, if you try to change the channel does it ask you which of the two programs you want to stop recording, or does it only give you one choice like the HR10-250? Thanks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mongo said:


> Earl,
> When recording two programs, if you try to change the channel does it ask you which of the two programs you want to stop recording, or does it only give you one choice like the HR10-250? Thanks.


The system comes up with a dialog screen... that gives you the choice of which one to cancel...

(I just tested this as i sit on the couch with the laptop)

Earl


----------



## mcl

Earl -
Earlier in the thread you mentioned you were going to test the unit with Vonage.
I've got Vonage and am quite interested in how well this unit performs with it, as I'm considering getting one (upgrading from my non-HD DirecTivo). 

Does it successfully make the calls it needs to via Vonage? Can you order PPV content over the Vonage connection, or does it give an error like many DirecTivos tend to unless you've gotten lucky and picked a good number for the dial-in?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mcl said:


> Earl -
> Earlier in the thread you mentioned you were going to test the unit with Vonage.
> I've got Vonage and am quite interested in how well this unit performs with it, as I'm considering getting one (upgrading from my non-HD DirecTivo).
> 
> Does it successfully make the calls it needs to via Vonage? Can you order PPV content over the Vonage connection, or does it give an error like many DirecTivos tend to unless you've gotten lucky and picked a good number for the dial-in?


I won't be able to test it to this weekend, after my number is fully ported. I just signed up for Vonage last week

The HR20 doesn't use the phone line the same way as the TiVo did... there is one less phone call it makes... and that is the phone call that DTivos have had problems with.

I will know soon, and I will let you know.
(Aka, the phone call the HR20 makes, you don't get to pick the phone number... )

Good night all.... time for some sleep.


----------



## Gweeto

Earl, I have two questions I have not seen asked yet? 

1) Do the HR20 have the same FF feature that the HR10-250 has where when you are fast forwarding and your show comes back and you push play it automatically skips some? This is a new and fabulous feature to me since I just go the HR10-250.

2)How fast is the Program Guide? Is it the same speed as the H20 or have they improved upon that yet? 

The reason I ask is coming from non DTV stamped boxes the program guide worked extremely fast. When I got the H20 it killed us how slow it is. The only usable way we found was to use favorites and the mini guide. As a programmer also and since all boxes I have ever used in the past were fast, I don't see why they can't speed that up. I just got the HR10-250 and am praying for the 6.3 update like everyone else for a speed up.

And since you seem to be "connected", can I pass one suggestion on. Can they fix the menus and such so that if you are at the top and hit up it will roll to the bottom. Since the menus on the H20 are so slow (and I assume the HR20) it would really speed navigation up.


----------



## BillyT2002

It is very good news on the "first run" issues being resolved.

If in one month the the majority of posters here and on TCF can say they have not missed *ANY* recordings, or had to reboot or reformat the drive, then I'll probably buy one of these DVRs and use the HR10-250 I have as a backup DVR as well. However, I won't pay $400 for any DVR that is considered leased by D*. I'll play CSR roulette until I get one that will see it my way, waive the $400 fee and let me keep the HR10-250 as well. If worse comes to worse, I'll give them my decommissioned HDVR2 to take away, if they must take back a DVR.

Also, Earl - can I get the eye with red LEDs? I want the thing to look more like a Cylon when it's cycling the LEDs.


----------



## Que

pdawg17 said:


> I know but Earl hinted above that two buffers may never happen...


The why get it?? That is the BIG thing that I use! I don't need any other "spam" or something in the background download, I don't need or want. Just live TV thats it.


----------



## Que

Earl,

You can change your signature now.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Wow, a lot of great information here, thanks Earl!



ThomC said:


> Thanks for the info Earl, great job.
> My one and only gripe seems to be it having only a single live buffer.
> Any possibility of there ever being two?
> It's a key to my Sunday Football viewing.





pdawg17 said:


> I agree...what's so hard about having two live buffers? Why leave that out? I use the two buffers a lot too....


I can't believe this. The other thing I don't understand is why D* doesn't have PIP on their receivers. I thought for sure D* would take a page from Ultimate TV, E* and some of the cable company boxes and offer it. It would be a nice feature to have in addition to the dual live buffers, then you can actually see whats on the other tuner.

Earl, can they add PIP with just a software update, or would this require a hardware update as well?



bpayne said:


> There will also be an interface for a telephone connection. IRDs will no longer have to have hard lines ran to them- they can "dial out" over the coax to the FTM and then get to the NID. This will be in addition to the wireless phone jacks that will be built into the next generation of standard IRDs (D12).


Does this mean that we will still need a hard wire phone line then? I really want to drop my landline.



SolidState said:


> Damn my 18-month old Plasma and it's limited inputs!


You need one of these. 
http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI switch 4port_toslink.htm

Also Earl, do you know when the new Slimline dish will be out, the one that houses all 5 LNB's in one housing?

Thanks again!


----------



## batguano

Hi Earl!

Thanks for the great review! When you have a sec, could you post a photo of the remote, and perhaps tell us whether you liked or disliked the layout and functions?

Thanks!
--batguano


----------



## Halo

theratpatrol said:


> can they add PIP with just a software update, or would this require a hardware update as well?


I was looking at datasheets for some of the chips in the HR20. This seems to answer your question:



> The BCM7411 supports the following decoding operations:
> 
> 1 HD (MPEG-2, H.264 or VC-1) in realtime
> 2 SD streams (MPEG-2, H.264 or VC-1) in realtime


So it looks like the hardware is not capable of decoding two simultaneous HD streams like PIP would require.


----------



## ajiuO

what is the size of this?

is it 17" wide?? i hope so


----------



## Knepster

Ed Campbell said:


> Earl -- you've done all of us a great service.
> 
> Small question for anyone who's been switched. Do they let you keep your old dish? Or do they take it away as a "trophy" to prove they did their job?
> 
> I'd like to put my [hopefully, soon-to-be] old P3 over on the guest house; so, visitors can receive some of the SD channels we acquired with the addition of the 3rd bird.


That was posted a long time ago (I've been out of town), but they didn't take mine, he left it on the house right where it had been, as the AT9 had to be mounted in a different place, so maybe they will leave it. I had to take mine off myself and now it's just in my garage, so if you need it PM me and it's yours for the cost of shipping. I can't imagine it would be too much from Denver to Santa Fe.

Back to topic, great review Earl, thanks for the amount of time that must have taken. I can't wait to get mine, as I can only get some local HDs via OTA, being able to record all of the big 4 networks would have won me over anyway. But after reading the review I'm even more excited.


----------



## Knepster

Also had a question I meant to ask. I never went to the R15, so I was wondering if the HR20 has the capability to "Autotune" as the H20 does without also recording automatically what it is switching to. Thanks again.


----------



## Larry G

Earl
Thanks alot for the review. I am anxiously awaiting the release of this box in my area.


----------



## newsposter

upgrade-itis said:


> Nice job Earl.
> 
> I would prefer dual buffers as well, but realize that this is the ONLY HD DVR option to get new HD content from D*.
> 
> I wonder how many of the "Pry my HR 10 from my dead hands" people will be around when new HD national channels are added in '07 in MPEG4?
> 
> Now I have another forum to read each day.


you will never have to forcefully give up your HDtivo


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> I won't be able to test it to this weekend, after my number is fully ported. I just signed up for Vonage last week
> 
> The HR20 doesn't use the phone line the same way as the TiVo did... there is one less phone call it makes... and that is the phone call that DTivos have had problems with.
> 
> I will know soon, and I will let you know.
> (Aka, the phone call the HR20 makes, you don't get to pick the phone number... )
> 
> Good night all.... time for some sleep.


A FYI. I had Vonage and all my other D* boxes worked OK with it (HR10-250, R15, SD-DVR40), after Vonage made a change on their end, the H20 would not. I could tell because looking at the outbound log around the first of the month there were a bunch of calls to 800 numbers being made, I kept unplugging receivers until I found the one making the calls, the H20.


----------



## Capmeister

Earl, thanks for adding the shots of the closed captioning. The CCing on my H20 is a bit wonky sometimes, so it's good to see it's working better on the HR20. I am more excited about this box than I thought I would be, knowing that it has a 30 second slip. I will probably wait 6 months or so, but might get one next spring.


----------



## newsposter

when did earl move to LA?

and in your review you say you only have 1 TV. I swear you've posted that you have 8-10 tivos and they can't all be hooked up to 1 tv


----------



## anubys

weird question: can you prioritize channels? so when I create the equivalent of a wish list, can I tell it to record from one channel over the other if there is a conflict?(this would work best when you have the OTA SD and HD feeds, you would automatically get the HD feed if you rate the HD channel as a higher priority.)

thanks, Earl, for the great review...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Halo said:


> I was looking at datasheets for some of the chips in the HR20. This seems to answer your question:
> 
> So it looks like the hardware is not capable of decoding two simultaneous HD streams like PIP would require.


How you can tell just by reading that that it can't support it? I guess I'm not as tech savy as you are. Does this mean you can't record 2 HD shows at the same time?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

This is exactly what I do all day Saturday and Sunday during the fall.

Luck for me I can receive all my locals with my HR10 so it will not be a problem this year. I hope the HMC has multiple live buffers.

Who can we complain to at D* who will not file 13 the issue?

Other than that the unit sounds good.



ThomC said:


> Often more than 2 channels are in play.
> While I realize that only 2 can be buffered, often it's..
> Watch Game1
> Buffer Game 2
> Switch from Game 1 to Game 3 for new buffer
> Switch to & watch Game 2 from buffer
> Find another game that is not a blowout and start a new buffer (Game 4).
> Go back and watch Game 3 from buffer
> and so on repeatedly as the games dictate (Sunday Ticket Rocks!!!)
> Starting and stopping to make each of these bits recordings would be a pain to say the least.
> 
> That said the new unit sounds good, but I will stick with the HR10-250 for as long as I can. (I was told NYC Locals and RSNs will remain mpeg-2 for quite some time).
> I can only hope that 6.3 comes along soon so I won't be envying all that's better in the HR20.


----------



## ad301

Earl Bonovich said:


> I haven't watched everything that has been recorded, but to date... nothing has been screwed up.
> Everything that I "thought" was to record, has been recorded.
> Everytihing that I "thought" was NOT going to record, hasn't recorded.
> 
> hope that answers the questions.


Earl, sorry, but your limited testing so far does not answer the question of whether the scheduling logic has been fixed. It is promising that they have removed the limit on the todo list. And it's nice that you haven't yet seen any scheduling problems. But "thought" is really kind of wishy-washy, isn't it? Wolffpack's testing of the r15 in parallel with an r10 shows that what the user "thinks" should or should not be recorded is not always accurate. Especially when you throw some ARs into the mix.

I'd suggest that you initiate a parallel test with a tivo-based box, to see how accurate the scheduler is. You know someone is going to do it, it might as well be you.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Gweeto said:


> Earl, I have two questions I have not seen asked yet?
> 
> 1) Do the HR20 have the same FF feature that the HR10-250 has where when you are fast forwarding and your show comes back and you push play it automatically skips some? This is a new and fabulous feature to me since I just go the HR10-250.
> 
> 2)How fast is the Program Guide? Is it the same speed as the H20 or have they improved upon that yet?
> 
> The reason I ask is coming from non DTV stamped boxes the program guide worked extremely fast. When I got the H20 it killed us how slow it is. The only usable way we found was to use favorites and the mini guide. As a programmer also and since all boxes I have ever used in the past were fast, I don't see why they can't speed that up. I just got the HR10-250 and am praying for the 6.3 update like everyone else for a speed up.
> 
> And since you seem to be "connected", can I pass one suggestion on. Can they fix the menus and such so that if you are at the top and hit up it will roll to the bottom. Since the menus on the H20 are so slow (and I assume the HR20) it would really speed navigation up.


#1) No... that is called Auto-Correction, and is a TiVo patented thing... their patent for that feature is pretty exhaustive for a LOT of the ways to do it. What I do, when exiting FF, I just hit the JUMP BACK button instead of play, it works pretty good to simulate what Auto-Correction did. Then mix in the usage of the 30s SLIP....... I would still like auto-correction, but this works pretty good.

#2) The Guide is pretty quick... I will try to put a video up of it over the weekend...

Ahh as for being connected... you are too now... most of the suggestions here in this forum, are seen by the folks at DirecTV.. )


----------



## Earl Bonovich

theratpatrol said:


> Earl, can they add PIP with just a software update, or would this require a hardware update as well?
> 
> Also Earl, do you know when the new Slimline dish will be out, the one that houses all 5 LNB's in one housing?


I don't know if they could do a software only solution for PIP.

As for the slimline.. no new details.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ajiuO said:


> what is the size of this?
> 
> is it 17" wide?? i hope so


I didn't crack out the ruler... but it is pretty darn close to 17" if it is not exactly 17.

It is the pretty darn close to the same width as my DSR704 and my HR10


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Knepster said:


> Also had a question I meant to ask. I never went to the R15, so I was wondering if the HR20 has the capability to "Autotune" as the H20 does without also recording automatically what it is switching to. Thanks again.


No, there is no Autotune feature...
Just think of a scheduled recording as Autotune on steroids


----------



## Que

Earl Bonovich said:


> Dual Buffers....
> 
> Ultimately it is in DirecTV's control, hence why I say "Never say Never"
> But... I would have to put it higher then 90% that Dual Live Buffers, won't make it to HR20 and R15.
> 
> Sadly, I can't share the reasons why.
> I agree with some of them, disagree with some of them as well.
> 
> As of this moment, I don't know of any plans to add them.
> Sorry... but that is just what I know, and my gut fealing on it.


SPAM! Right??

Can you tell us what it downloads? I know it does VOD but, what else? I know it's something I don't want or even need.

I guess there is no way to turn VOD or whatever off, is there?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

anubys said:


> weird question: can you prioritize channels? so when I create the equivalent of a wish list, can I tell it to record from one channel over the other if there is a conflict?(this would work best when you have the OTA SD and HD feeds, you would automatically get the HD feed if you rate the HD channel as a higher priority.)
> 
> thanks, Earl, for the great review...


I don't see a way in there to do it...
But since their is no WishLists, and SL's are assigned directly to a channel....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ad301 said:


> Earl, sorry, but your limited testing so far does not answer the question of whether the scheduling logic has been fixed. It is promising that they have removed the limit on the todo list. And it's nice that you haven't yet seen any scheduling problems. But "thought" is really kind of wishy-washy, isn't it? Wolffpack's testing of the r15 in parallel with an r10 shows that what the user "thinks" should or should not be recorded is not always accurate. Especially when you throw some ARs into the mix.
> 
> I'd suggest that you initiate a parallel test with a tivo-based box, to see how accurate the scheduler is. You know someone is going to do it, it might as well be you.


Limited as it is... some of the most problimatic ones from the R15 have been working correctly... Such as Stargate, Good Eats, plus a lot of my recordings are set to first runs... such as the 3 CSI's, the 3 L&Os, Desperate House Wifes, My Name is Earl, Office... none of them have recorded a repeat yet.

And the daily shows (such as Days of Our lives) hasn't missed one (or my wife would kill me)

The big test will be in a few weeks when most of those shows start to air new episodes.

I will try to setup my HR10-250 (while I still have it) to correspond to the HR20 and see what I get.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Que said:


> SPAM! Right??
> 
> Can you tell us what it downloads? I know it does VOD but, what else? I know it's something I don't want or even need.
> 
> I guess there is no way to turn VOD or whatever off, is there?


Right now the feature isn't being used for anything.
As for what it is going to have? Don't know for sure.

There is no indication any where that you can turn the feature off.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

newsposter said:


> when did earl move to LA?
> 
> and in your review you say you only have 1 TV. I swear you've posted that you have 8-10 tivos and they can't all be hooked up to 1 tv


 1 HDTV... 
Plenty of others..


----------



## vahighland

Earl, can you post a picture of the normal guide. I see the mini guide, but I'm really curious if the HR20 has a guide that fills a wide screen TV so that you can browse a 3 hour block of time on one screen. Similar to some of the Dish network systems.


----------



## slinden

Great Review. 

How do you compare the HR20 To the HR10. I have had TIVO since it's inception and I'm a bit nervous about a new service. 

The fact that the two tuners do not have separate buffers is a problem for the way I watch TV. Especially the NFL. 

I'm also a bit concerned that my Harmoney 880 remote may not work with the HR20.

Do you know it TIVO is going to make an MPEG4 unit that will work with DirecTV?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

vahighland said:


> Earl, can you post a picture of the normal guide. I see the mini guide, but I'm really curious if the HR20 has a guide that fills a wide screen TV so that you can browse a 3 hour block of time on one screen. Similar to some of the Dish network systems.


Sure.... Do me a favor, send me a PM to remind me... I am loosing track of all these things I promise to do.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

slinden said:


> Great Review.
> 
> How do you compare the HR20 To the HR10. I have had TIVO since it's inception and I'm a bit nervous about a new service.
> 
> The fact that the two tuners do not have separate buffers is a problem for the way I watch TV. Especially the NFL.
> 
> I'm also a bit concerned that my Harmoney 880 remote may not work with the HR20.
> 
> Do you know it TIVO is going to make an MPEG4 unit that will work with DirecTV?


I have told this to a few others...
I am selling my HR10-250.... Just in the short period of time I have had it, I like it more then the HR10... then again, I am already very used to it's interface because of the R15.... that is going to be a *BIG* change for most people who are converting.

As for NFL days... a work around.....
Record both games... and you can use the PREV button to jump between them. The HR20 however doesn't keep track of your pause point, but it is something.

Once someone comes up with the programming, your Harmony 880 will work perfectly fine... why? It is the exact same remote control set as the R15 and a lot of people are already using the Harmony 880 with the R15

There have been no announcements or indications or anything, to suggest that TiVo and DirecTV will be working together to create a MPEG-4 DTivo.


----------



## Que

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for NFL days... a work around.....
> Record both games... and you can use the PREV button to jump between them. The HR20 however doesn't keep track of your pause point, but it is something.


Boy I hope they get an update out quick for the pause point. Love to pause change buffers watch then change back and unpause.


----------



## Gweeto

Earl Bonovich said:


> #1) No... that is called Auto-Correction, and is a TiVo patented thing... their patent for that feature is pretty exhaustive for a LOT of the ways to do it. What I do, when exiting FF, I just hit the JUMP BACK button instead of play, it works pretty good to simulate what Auto-Correction did. Then mix in the usage of the 30s SLIP....... I would still like auto-correction, but this works pretty good.


Good suggestion, I did not even think of that. That would even work on my old reply tv upstairs for when commercial skip does not work and I have to manually FF. For those who have never experienced commercial skip, it is the greatest thing ever! To bad the networks forced them to stop supporting it.

Thanks.


----------



## f300v10

Earl, if you are watching a recorded show and stop in the middle, does the HR20 'resume play' when you come back to it like the HR10, or does it start over from the begining? 

Thanks for the review by the way, your efforts are much appreciated.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

f300v10 said:


> Earl, if you are watching a recorded show and stop in the middle, does the HR20 'resume play' when you come back to it like the HR10, or does it start over from the begining?
> 
> Thanks for the review by the way, your efforts are much appreciated.


Yes and No..... how's that for an answer.
I have had cases of both... but no pattern to it.

When ever I purposely test it.... it works by starting back where I was.
But when I go into a program that I "thought" I was watching... it sometimes was back at the beginning.


----------



## newsposter

forgive the obvious unfamiliarity with the R15 but....are you saying with this new machine that if you are half way thru watching a program you already have recorded, and leave it to do whatever....that you will not pick up at the exact point you stopped watching when you go back into the list of stuff and hit play?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

newsposter said:


> forgive the obvious unfamiliarity with the R15 but....are you saying with this new machine that if you are half way thru watching a program you already have recorded, and leave it to do whatever....that you will not pick up at the exact point you stopped watching when you go back into the list of stuff and hit play?


What I was trying to say....

I have seen it happen both ways... In some cases it picks up exactly where you left off... in others, you start at the beginning again.

I have identified if it was something I was do, or just an inconsistancy with the box.


----------



## pdawg17

Earl, I know you have said the PQ of the HR20 is "better" than the HR10...would you specifically say it looks "sharper"? I have always felt the HR10 looks "soft"...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Yes, I would say it looks sharper and more crisp.
I don't know yet if that is do to Component on the HR10, and HDMI/DVI on the HR20....


----------



## Blitz68

Change your sig buddy. No HR20 in there  

Also this thing is kind of ugly compared to the H20 & R15


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Blitz68 said:


> Change your sig buddy. No HR20 in there
> 
> Also this thing is kind of ugly compared to the H20 & R15


What do you mean?

Other then the change of the EYE, to be individual LED's, instead of teh panel like on the R15.... they look VERY similar...


----------



## Halo

theratpatrol said:


> How you can tell just by reading that that it can't support it? I guess I'm not as tech savy as you are. Does this mean you can't record 2 HD shows at the same time?


The only time 2 mpeg streams need to be decoded simultaneously is when watching PIP. When you record a show to the hard drive it doesn't need decoding- the raw undecoded mpeg stream is recorded to the hard drive- the only time the mpeg stream is decoded is only when you watch the show.

So, the only possible time when two streams need to be decoded simultaneously is with PIP (or with certain Dishnetwork receivers which can output different programs on 2 different outputs).

The Broadcom chip BCM7411 in the HR20 can do two simultaneous SD streams, so PIP of SD stream *is* possible on the HR20. It can only decode one HD stream at once so there's no way the HR20 can do PIP with two HD channels.


----------



## davidrumm

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for NFL days... a work around.....
> Record both games... and you can use the PREV button to jump between them. The HR20 however doesn't keep track of your pause point, but it is something.


One thing that might help is before using the PREV button to jump to the other tuner. Put in a bookmark. This way when you change back you back up fairly quickly to the bookmark. Just an idea.

_Edited By Earl, to Fix QUOTE tag_


----------



## Blitz68

Earl Bonovich said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> Other then the change of the EYE, to be individual LED's, instead of *teh panel *like on the R15.... they look VERY similar...


The panel is UGLY.

Also, how did you get it so soon, was it the connections?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Blitz68 said:


> The panel is UGLY.
> 
> Also, how did you get it so soon, was it the connections?


Yup...


----------



## anubys

are the screens (guide, todo, now playing...etc.) in HD? or are they like the HR10 in SD?

sorry about the silly question


----------



## JoeSchueller

harley3k said:


> Earl - THANK YOU for this review. It is most helpful.
> My negative comments are obviously not directed towards you.
> 
> But let me just reiterate...
> 
> Congratulations DIRECTV - this is absolutely COMCASTIC!
> Your HD-DVR is now just as bad as my local cable provider's.
> 
> I hope breaking the relationship with Tivo was worth the whole $1 per month you were paying them so that you could develop your own DVR and be so far behind where you once were.
> 
> I will look forward to NOT puting an even bigger dish on my roof only to get 3 of my local HD Channels, and NOT paying $399 to upgrade to a 'leased' box, and NOT signing a 2 year committment.
> 
> Now where's that 6.3 upgrade for my HR10? Was that a tease, or should I call FIOS today?
> 
> -h


I'm sorry, but I can't understand this rant. I agree, it is time for you to call FIOS. I'm sure a lot of people here, if presented that option would go with it.

Please don't let my post count on DBSTalk temper this reply. I've been following the HR10 on TiVO community for a long time, and I own both a T60 and an HR10, so this isn't just newb trolling.

This is in no way shape or form a cable co's DVR. I didn't see local advertising sold on to the EPG in any of Earl's screen shots. It isn't an ugly Motorola or Pioneer box that needs to be rebooted frequently.

Yes, you lost your beloved, bloated TiVo interface, and we all lost the 2nd live buffer, but let's look at what you've gained:
Folders
Native resolution
Ability to view TV while in guides/menu's
Mini-guide
CallerID without hacking
 and *SPEED*. If this thing is as fast as it appears in Earl's movies, this is such a blessing. No more life wasted on "please wait" and silly non-functioning overlaid grid guides.

Native resolution is also a huge deal. My TV's scaler is likely far superior to whatever D* is using, so passing it the most complete digital signal possible and letting the TV do the work sounds perfect to me.

Not all of us are crying in our beers for the poor TiVo interface. Many will see the HR20 as a true *upgrade* to the HR10. When the ATSC functionality is delivered, this package is far more appealing than the HR10's turtle-like interface. I can work around the dual buffer issue by just _recording_ whatever it is on the other tuner I want to see.

Please please please go back to TiVoCommunity or wherever it is you came from, go buy a Series 3 with a cable card, and give it a rest already.

While it is nice that you started out your religous rant regarding the sacred TiVo with thanks to Earl, I hope Earl and/or the mod's here are smart enough to delete posts like this and keep the discussion focused on answering questions about the HR20.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

anubys said:


> are the screens (guide, todo, now playing...etc.) in HD? or are they like the HR10 in SD?
> 
> sorry about the silly question


They are primarily "blue" with white text.. the image in the PIG (Picture In Guide) window still looks okay.

The TV doesn't change resolutions or anything like that when I go into menu... and the text is fairly crisp


----------



## BrianP

Earl Bonovich said:


> What I was trying to say....
> 
> I have seen it happen both ways... In some cases it picks up exactly where you left off... in others, you start at the beginning again.
> 
> I have identified if it was something I was do, or just an inconsistancy with the box.


This could be a big concern for me, so I need to make sure I have this right. On my DirecTivo (plain SD), when watching a recorded show (not currently being recorded, just a typical time-shifted recording), if I hit the Tivo button and hop to a menu, and then go to Now Playing and select the show again, there's a Resume Playing option.

What is the behavior of the HR20? Is there any "Resume" language on the menu? If not and it's just the same "Play" from what you are saying, there's an inconsistent response by the machine to either start at the beginning or at the old spot--is this correct?

I'd suggest trying to resume play on both live recorded and previously recorded material, and see if the results are different.


----------



## Iaen23

Is there a picture of the remote...or is this box controlled mentally?

Great contribution Earl! Thank you.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

BrianP said:


> This could be a big concern for me, so I need to make sure I have this right. On my DirecTivo (plain SD), when watching a recorded show (not currently being recorded, just a typical time-shifted recording), if I hit the Tivo button and hop to a menu, and then go to Now Playing and select the show again, there's a Resume Playing option.
> 
> What is the behavior of the HR20? Is there any "Resume" language on the menu? If not and it's just the same "Play" from what you are saying, there's an inconsistent response by the machine to either start at the beginning or at the old spot--is this correct?
> 
> I'd suggest trying to resume play on both live recorded and previously recorded material, and see if the results are different.


For your scenerio there... I am going to give you the R15 answer, as I have specifically tested it on the HR20.

The PAUSE point doesn't stick when when you start playback of a MyVod (the Now Playing).... the buffer continues to record, but your pause point changes.

I will specifically test it on the HR20 tonight... and let you know.

If my son gives me the chance to use the tv tonight, I will try it a little more.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Iaen23 said:


> Is there a picture of the remote...or is this box controlled mentally?
> 
> Great contribution Earl! Thank you.


http://www.bonovich.ws/dtv/RC32BB/img01_small.jpg

The remote on the RIGHT is the RC23... which is the same as the included RC24 (but the RC24 has the built in RF)

The remote on the LEFT is the new BIG BUTTON remote... there is a review in the General Forum on that one.

NOTE: The Big Button Remote WILL control the HR20 in IR mode


----------



## Jeremy W

Iaen23 said:


> Is there a picture of the remote...or is this box controlled mentally?


http://www.solidsignal.com/direct/tv/view_large.asp?PROD=RC24

As you can see, on the outside it's exactly the same as the remote Earl posted, aside from the fact that it says RC24 at the top instead of RC23.


----------



## Jeff Z

davidrumm said:


> One thing that might help is before using the PREV button to jump to the other tuner. Put in a bookmark. This way when you change back you back up fairly quickly to the bookmark. Just an idea.
> 
> _Edited By Earl, to Fix QUOTE tag_


Earl, David,

Are you saying that when you switch back and forth between the tuners using the PREV button (assuming both are currently recording), that you are brought back to the live point in the broadcast?

If so, that would be a major disappointment and would likely kill this as a viable workaround for dual buffers. I say this because many Tivo power users who watch ball games or shows by bouncing back and forth between tuners would rarely be ok with being brought back to live tv each time. First of all this is a major inconvenience if you do a lot of bouncing and second, and more importantly, many who pause a game at a specific time and score, definitely don't want to skip back to the live broadcast where the current score is being displayed.

Other general observations based on what I've read so far about the HR20....

1. Things I like... mp4 (better picture & use less space), quicker response times, and storage expansion option via external hard drive (if that is a reality)

2. Things I don't like.... I strongly dislike the Directv horizontal guide where you can only see a few hours upcoming for a particular channel. I've owned multiple Tivo's (stand alone and directv), Ultimate TV, cable DVR, and replay TV, and I always prefer the Tivo guide hands down since i'm a fan of being able to easily see what's on for the next 24+ hours on a specific channel. If someone told me that you can do something like that with the HR20, it would put a smile on my face. I also am upset that this new box doesn't have Tick marks to let you jump to different points in a broadcast. I really hope that's addressed. Then there's the dual buffer issue. I think they blew it on this one. For power Tivo users, this is critical.

Overall, I'm still a big fan of Tivo and the thought of having to live without some of these minor (but critical) taken-for-granted features is hard to swallow.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jeff Z said:


> If someone told me that you can do something like that with the HR20, it would put a smile on my face.


Smile... you can... just not as a default option though.
While in the guide, if you highlight the channel number... and hit Info...
You get your listing for just that channel for the next 14 days...


----------



## P Smith

Thanks for your review Earl; I have some thought about the STB:
- is there second BCM7411 ? If not, it will never provide second buffer 
- do you have any plans to put into bigger SATA disk ? 500 GB or 750 GB.
- I'll bet whole price of the HR20, main engine is Broadcom and it's BCM7038


----------



## Earl Bonovich

-) I don't know if there is a second BCM7411.... but if I open it up again... I will look around.

-) I do have plans to try and put in a bigger SATA drive... just don't know when I am going to be able to obtain one.... might wait a little while to see if the 750s go down in price with the announcements of the 1TBs


----------



## ad301

Earl Bonovich said:


> -) I do have plans to try and put in a bigger SATA drive... just don't know when I am going to be able to obtain one.... might wait a little while to see if the 750s go down in price with the announcements of the 1TBs


Earl, can you clarify this, again, please? When you say "put in" are you referring to plugging in an additional external drive, or do you mean replacing the current internal drive with a bigger one?


----------



## P Smith

One hint for removing heat sink - release springs, then SLOW twist it, just 1 or 2° left-right, right-left a couple times, better after a few hours run. If it use thermal paste, it will go off .


----------



## walters

You wouldn't need an additional decoder chip to do dual buffers; only to do (HD) PIP.


----------



## pappys

JoeSchueller said:


> I'm sorry, but I can't understand this rant. I agree, it is time for you to call FIOS. I'm sure a lot of people here, if presented that option would go with it.
> 
> Please don't let my post count on DBSTalk temper this reply. I've been following the HR10 on TiVO community for a long time, and I own both a T60 and an HR10, so this isn't just newb trolling.
> 
> This is in no way shape or form a cable co's DVR. I didn't see local advertising sold on to the EPG in any of Earl's screen shots. It isn't an ugly Motorola or Pioneer box that needs to be rebooted frequently.
> 
> Yes, you lost your beloved, bloated TiVo interface, and we all lost the 2nd live buffer, but let's look at what you've gained:
> Folders
> Native resolution
> Ability to view TV while in guides/menu's
> Mini-guide
> CallerID without hacking
> and *SPEED*. If this thing is as fast as it appears in Earl's movies, this is such a blessing. No more life wasted on "please wait" and silly non-functioning overlaid grid guides.
> 
> Native resolution is also a huge deal. My TV's scaler is likely far superior to whatever D* is using, so passing it the most complete digital signal possible and letting the TV do the work sounds perfect to me.
> 
> Not all of us are crying in our beers for the poor TiVo interface. Many will see the HR20 as a true *upgrade* to the HR10. When the ATSC functionality is delivered, this package is far more appealing than the HR10's turtle-like interface. I can work around the dual buffer issue by just _recording_ whatever it is on the other tuner I want to see.
> 
> Please please please go back to TiVoCommunity or wherever it is you came from, go buy a Series 3 with a cable card, and give it a rest already.
> 
> While it is nice that you started out your religous rant regarding the sacred TiVo with thanks to Earl, I hope Earl and/or the mod's here are smart enough to delete posts like this and keep the discussion focused on answering questions about the HR20.


Well said, I like that you listed out all the POSITIVES this box has. Yes there is a small drawback to the lost buffer, but people just don't like to change.

TIVO is not the end all to digital recording. Just like artificial sweeteners for sugar. First was Equal, then Sweet-n-Low came along and now a lot people prefer Splenda, it is better and stronger, and better tasting than Equal. (yes that is an opinion).

Now there just may be better boxes and systems than TIVO, hopefully this one. I am not saying this is the best DVRs box on the market, but I will give it a shot.


----------



## P Smith

walters said:


> You wouldn't need an additional decoder chip to do dual buffers; only to do (HD) PIP.


Are you serious ? Second stream HD or SD is _required_ second decoder, doesn't matter if you recording it, or do PIP or buffering. Period.


----------



## walters

Lost buffer isn't the only drawback. It's just the most visible. There's also SL limits, lack of true wishlists. Then more subjective things (suggestions, UI, etc.)


----------



## walters

P Smith said:


> Are you serious ? Second stream HD or SD is _required_ second decoder, doesn't matter if you recording it, or do PIP or buffering. Period.


Sure I'm serious. You only need to decode it in order to display it. So as long as you're only displaying one stream (no PIP) then you only need one.


----------



## bpayne

P Smith said:


> Are you serious ? Second stream HD or SD is _required_ second decoder, doesn't matter if you recording it, or do PIP or buffering. Period.


You're wrong. Break open an HD Tivo- it only has one (1) decoder. It has two (2) tuners. In order to do dual buffers, you would need two tuners. The HR20 has three (3), two dedicated for satellite, one dedicated for ATSC OTA.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ad301 said:


> Earl, can you clarify this, again, please? When you say "put in" are you referring to plugging in an additional external drive, or do you mean replacing the current internal drive with a bigger one?


Replacing the internal one... the eSATA is definently not active yet.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

P Smith said:


> One hint for removing heat sink - release springs, then SLOW twist it, just 1 or 2° left-right, right-left a couple times, better after a few hours run. If it use thermal paste, it will go off .


Thank you for the suggestion.... but............ nah...... I can fix a lot of things, but if something else is under there...... I'll leave that to the next guy..


----------



## P Smith

You're guys something - counting chips is the second level of analisys - begin from principles, then look into chip specs.


----------



## ad301

Earl Bonovich said:


> Replacing the internal one... the eSATA is definently not active yet.


AHA! I retract my earlier "my bad". 

So, you've heard that if you replace the internal drive with a much larger one, the larger drive space will be recognized and usable, unlike the r15?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ad301 said:


> AHA! I retract my earlier "my bad".
> 
> So, you've heard that if you replace the internal drive with a much larger one, the larger drive space will be recognized and usable, unlike the r15?


Tis what I have heard... but it wasn't a 100% definitive...

We will see....


----------



## Alan Gordon

Blitz68 said:


> The panel is UGLY.


While I think this box is a BIG downgrade from the HR10-250 in regards to features and GUI, I think that the external look of the box is probably the best looking DirecTV receiver I've ever seen in my 12 years with DirecTV. Of course, I would prefer it the other way around, but I've seen worse...

LOL to the cylon comment!

~Alan


----------



## WynsWrld98

Some people posting here keep stating the HR20 is such a downgrade from the HR10-250. I've had an HR10-250 for about 18 months and can't wait to dump it. It is slow as molasses on various things I do with the annoying "please wait" message (e.g., after doing things in season pass area) and has had numerous reboots, partially recorded programs, etc. It is the most unreliable piece of electronics I've ever owned and I've been very tempted to go to cable to get rid of it but hopefully the HR20 will at least not reboot/give partially recorded programs/be slow as molasses.


----------



## mmoore99

Earl Bonovich said:


> -) I do have plans to try and put in a bigger SATA drive... just don't know when I am going to be able to obtain one.... might wait a little while to see if the 750s go down in price with the announcements of the 1TBs


Earl, what kind of "hacking" would be required in order to put in a larger drive?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mmoore99 said:


> Earl, what kind of "hacking" would be required in order to put in a larger drive?


I don't know if it works yet... haven't tested it.... but

-) A Screw Driver with the appropriate hex tip
-) A little patience to not screw up anything
-) A larger drive
-) 32tooth Hack Saw (that is where the "hacking" comes in)

Seriously... I don't know yet 
Hopefully in the next few weeks I will secure the larger drive, and give it a shot.

Anyone know anyone at Seagate.... If I am going to do it... I would sure like to try it with one of those 1TB drives....


----------



## bpayne

P Smith said:


> You're guys something - counting chips is the second level of analisys - begin from principles, then look into chip specs.


If 2 decoders is required for 2nd stream buffering then can you explain to me how an HR20 is capable of recording 3 programs at once? Two from the satellite and 1 from an off-air antenna?

Or is recording not the same as buffering? 
P Smith, I understand your logic but I think you're confusing a decoder with a tuner. If you're still not convinced that an HR20 is capable of 2nd stream buffering, let's not fret about it too much- DTV consider it a low-priority feature and that's why we haven't seen it yet on the R15 or the HR20.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bpayne said:


> If 2 decoders is required for 2nd stream buffering then can you explain to me how an HR20 is capable of recording 3 programs at once? Two from the satellite and 1 from an off-air antenna?
> 
> Or is recording not the same as buffering?
> P Smith, I understand your logic but I think you're confusing a decoder with a tuner. If you're still not convinced that an HR20 is capable of 2nd stream buffering, let's not fret about it too much- DTV consider it a low-priority feature and that's why we haven't seen it yet on the R15 or the HR20.


1) I don't know if the unit will be able to record 3 things at once... don't think it will... It will be 2 SAT, 2 OTA, or 1 of each... not three.

2) The "decoders" are only used when you want to PLAYBACK the content (either via the buffer, or previously recorded).... the "recording" simply takes the exact data-bit stream in the SAT signal and stores it to the hard drive... No decoding

3) Tuners... they are what lock in on the specific part of the incomming signal. Decoders are what take that digital data, and translate into something the TV can understand to display it.


----------



## Alan Gordon

WynsWrld98 said:


> Some people posting here keep stating the HR20 is such a downgrade from the HR10-250. I've had an HR10-250 for about 18 months and can't wait to dump it. It is slow as molasses on various things I do with the annoying "please wait" message (e.g., after doing things in season pass area) and has had numerous reboots, partially recorded programs, etc.


I've never thought the HR10-250 was slow... slower than my 6.2 SD DirecTiVo or my Stand-Alone TiVo sure, but never to the point where it bothered me.

As far as reboots, the only times I've had that are when the software upgraded and when the power goes out (quite a bit down here in the South when Summer storms are around), so that's a non-issue.

As far as partially recorded programs, I've had that problem many times, but that's due to the Troposphere and my local OTA affiliates low powered digital signals or rain fade. It is possible that the ATSC tuners in the HR20 might work better for me, but then I often have the same problem with analog.

Granted, I'm only one person saying this, but it's understandable. TiVo is my favorite Consumer Electronics Device... and to be able to continue watching HD on DirecTV, it's only a matter of time before I have to switch (and I'm intending on switching earlier than I need to for several reasons). Right now, cable is unavailable to me, so that's not an option, and if I go with Dish Network, I wouldn't have a TiVo either.

Should I move or cable becomes available to me, I will probably switch so that I can use TiVo, or should DirecTV ever force us off the SD DirecTiVo's currently in use in my household, I may start looking at Dish Network, but for now, DirecTV is my choice, and the HR20 will soon be my reality.

However, I'm not trying to badmouth the HR20. From what Earl has said, it seems to be a VERY stable DVR, and definately appears better than most cable companies' DVR offering (not that I've used them) and better than Dish Network's earlier DVRs (I can't speak for their newer models)... and wPIGhile I'm lamenting the lack of wishlists and suggestions, and the superior GUI, I am actually EXCITED about trying out the HR20.

Most of the features of the HR20 do not excite me (Caller ID, Interactive, PIG, etc), there are some features that I like such as MPEG-4 capability (that is the point after all), On-Screen Space Monitor (not that that's a big deal), Integrated RF remote support, and features that I REALLY like such as all outputs working at the same time, simplified internal hard drive expansion, external hard drive expansion, the latest ATSC tuners and networking capabilities.

Plus, there's also the fact that DirecTV has stated they intend to go to a new GUI in 2007 (which hopefully will look better than their current GUI), and there is the possibility for more features as time goes on. While the chances of it are slim, it would be VERY cool if DirecTV would enable MRV on the HR20 as well...

Plus, as long as it's stable and records what I tell it too, I'll like playing with a new toy...

~Alan


----------



## GP245

Earl, I don't believe the dimensions of the unit have been posted.

Would you please?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

GP245 said:


> Earl, I don't believe the dimensions of the unit have been posted.
> 
> Would you please?


Sure... I will post them later tonight when I get home.


----------



## ToddinVA

What is the 30 second SLIP feature??

Also, after seeing the remote, I hate the placement of the DVR buttons at the top of the remote. Our local cable TV DVR remote has similar placement of buttons and it hurts my hand to use it after a little while. 

Lastly, does the Harmony 880 have enough buttons to adequately deal with this DVR? I don't like the use of those 4 colored buttons. How much are they used?


----------



## P Smith

Earl Bonovich said:


> <...>
> 2) The "decoders" are only used when you want to PLAYBACK the content (either via the buffer, or previously recorded).... the "recording" simply takes the exact data-bit stream in the SAT signal and stores it to the hard drive... No decoding
> <...>


Nay, the decoder [BCM7411] working for PES downstream(s); everything in MPEG4 will go thru this if you targetting video-out; from life sat channel(s), from buffer, from disk ( from OTA in a future ? ). 
Have two sat tuners with MPEG-4? - Provide 2 decoders. 
Have two MPEG-4 streams from disk ( so far only Dish 622 could do that ! ) - give two decoders ! Simple.
Little easy for DTV without second independent TV-out .


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ToddinVA said:


> What is the 30 second SLIP feature??
> 
> Also, after seeing the remote, I hate the placement of the DVR buttons at the top of the remote. Our local cable TV DVR remote has similar placement of buttons and it hurts my hand to use it after a little while.
> 
> Lastly, does the Harmony 880 have enough buttons to adequately deal with this DVR? I don't like the use of those 4 colored buttons. How much are they used?


30 Second SLIP... with one press of teh forward advance button.
Playback will go forward 30s in about 1.5s (a FIXED LENGTH FF) so you "SLIP" past the content.

A lot of people are using the Harmony 880 with the R15... which uses the same remote.

The colored buttons are used to tab in some of the menu's, quick feature jumps (such as single line guide), and used in the interactive features


----------



## anubys

Earl Bonovich said:


> Smile... you can... just not as a default option though.
> While in the guide, if you highlight the channel number... and hit Info...
> You get your listing for just that channel for the next 14 days...


so are you saying that if I'm checking 5 channels to see what's on for the next 12 hours, I have to go to each channel, hit info, then go to the next channel, hit info...etc.?

or does the guide change to that format until I come out of it?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

anubys said:


> so are you saying that if I'm checking 5 channels to see what's on for the next 12 hours, I have to go to each channel, hit info, then go to the next channel, hit info...etc.?
> 
> or does the guide change to that format until I come out of it?


Okay .. so maybe a half smile.
You can only access one channel at a time in that mode.
Then you have to come out, and select your next channel... ect...


----------



## pjo1966

How did I miss this? I just got caught up on the thread. From what I've read Earl, it seems that the HR20 is superior to the R-15 as far as functionality. Would you say that's correct?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pjo1966 said:


> How did I miss this? I just got caught up on the thread. From what I've read Earl, it seems that the HR20 is superior to the R-15 as far as functionality. Would you say that's correct?


Yes... I would agree to that statement.


----------



## ToddD

First things first. Much thanks go out to Earl for taking up his time here with us vs playing with his new toy....how many of us would make that choice.  

As I read the thread I noted a few things I want to comment on....


1) sudo VOD- The VOD function is designed to mimic what you'd have on cable. As such a number of programs will be recorded to the unit in the background. They do not need to use a tuner for all of the programs. That's one of the main uses for that network connection that posters were asking what it is for....VOD over IP (think YOUR broadband). I saw a poster in the thread note that he was afraid that a 2 hour move would take 2 hours to record....Not so. The program will be sent as a file (most likely slices of a file to be fully correct) not a TV stream to record. The time factor will be how much bandwidth can you give the box and how much are they willing to give you. 

2) Other connection uses for the network port include DNLA, Windows Connect and support for Windows Media Center to come. This is the MRV plan for the HR20. 

3) FTM. The one cable solution is already in place for MDU customers. You can buy the equipment to do FTM today....but you'd not like the cost. A home version is to come soon I am told. The home version adds new things that are not a part of the MDU version and I think will be a very exciting and important part of the Directv story going forward. You would not believe the number of people who will not "upgrade" from cable because they would have to add cable to their homes.


All in all as a long time HR 10 owner I'd say that I find the HR 20 to be a OK receiver. I should note that I had expected to not like it at all, but I'm willing to give it a chance. But what really has me excited is the MCE plans for next year with Vista.....but that's another topic......


----------



## ajiuO

Earl Bonovich said:


> I didn't crack out the ruler... but it is pretty darn close to 17" if it is not exactly 17.
> 
> It is the pretty darn close to the same width as my DSR704 and my HR10


oh crappy that meens its 15". i wonder why DTV doesnt make the higer end stuff 17"

dvd players are 17" recivers are 17". I jsut think it looks goofy for everyone to use a standerd size and hten for DTV to make it 15.

i got aot a r15 for my room and i ended up huntign around tell i found a 15" dvd player made by Phillips to match.

i love my r15 by the way i dotn knwo what everyone is complaining about. i couldnt stand tivo. this thing reminds me more of UTV. i like 30 skip better then slip but im getign use to it. at least you dont have to enter in some funky code every time the thing resets (witch i have never had happn by the way


----------



## Wolffpack

ToddD said:


> 1) sudo VOD- The VOD function is designed to mimic what you'd have on cable. As such a number of programs will be recorded to the unit in the background. They do not need to use a tuner for all of the programs. That's one of the main uses for that network connection that posters were asking what it is for....VOD over IP (think YOUR broadband). I saw a poster in the thread note that he was afraid that a 2 hour move would take 2 hours to record....Not so. The program will be sent as a file (most likely slices of a file to be fully correct) not a TV stream to record. The time factor will be how much bandwidth can you give the box and how much are they willing to give you.


Earl can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe DTVs plan for VOD includes broadband IP usage at this time. I believe it will need use of a tuner during off hours to populate the VOD as their plan stands now.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wolffpack said:


> Earl can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe DTVs plan for VOD includes broadband IP usage at this time. I believe it will need use of a tuner during off hours to populate the VOD as their plan stands now.


The VOD via SAT would be off hours, or at times that nothing was scheduled.
I know they are "planning" VOD via broadband, but that is off in the distance.


----------



## bobpenn

Called D* after reading these reviews and asked for the HR20. I live in the LA area. They looked up my zip code and told me I was eligible for a tradeout. I asked them the cost, and they said it was totally free: DVR and dish would be traded out.

There is no change in the monthly fee. You are "leasing" the box now instead of owning it. I think this means that if you drop the service, they take back the box. But there is no inplied warranty like cable TV does when you rent their boxes. You still need the insurance, I was told, if the thing breaks.

They offered to come next Tuesday and install, so they are going quickly. Due to my schedule, I had to put it off until 9/13. :nono2: 

I do have a Tivo HD DVR so it will be interesting to see how they are different. Hopefully the OTA tuners will be running by then.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Okay... some quick IOUS

Size of the unit:
15 1/8 x 12 1/4 x 2 1/2

Guide: Wide Screen... 
Okay.. it does take up the "whole" screen, but it still only shows 1.5 hours worth... I will make the suggestion that this could possible be user configured to show 1.5 or 3 hours (or maybe more)..

Pause: Well... tonight it decided not to work like it has at other times.
I couldn't get the unit to remember a pause point..  But it has worked before, so that means it can do it... just not doing it now....


----------



## ToddinVA

bobpenn said:


> Called D* after reading these reviews and asked for the HR20. I live in the LA area. They looked up my zip code and told me I was eligible for a tradeout. I asked them the cost, and they said it was totally free: DVR and dish would be traded out.
> 
> There is no change in the monthly fee. You are "leasing" the box now instead of owning it. I think this means that if you drop the service, they take back the box. But there is no inplied warranty like cable TV does when you rent their boxes. You still need the insurance, I was told, if the thing breaks.
> 
> They offered to come next Tuesday and install, so they are going quickly. Due to my schedule, I had to put it off until 9/13. :nono2:
> 
> I do have a Tivo HD DVR so it will be interesting to see how they are different. Hopefully the OTA tuners will be running by then.


I hope someone asks what they'll do if you want to keep your HR10 as well as get the new box...


----------



## tfederov

As a TiVo only owner, could you provide a video clip of the 30-second slip? I'd like to see what this is all about! Thanks in advance!


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> The VOD via SAT would be off hours, or at times that nothing was scheduled.
> I know they are "planning" VOD via broadband, but that is off in the distance.


According to a webcast from DirecTV earlier this year, DirecTV Broadband Video is scheduled for Q4 2006 with 2,000 titles at launch including stuff from HGTV, E!, HBO and Showtime. When you say "off in the distance", does this mean that DirecTV has postponed this?

~Alan


----------



## 66stang351

bobpenn said:


> Called D* after reading these reviews and asked for the HR20. I live in the LA area. They looked up my zip code and told me I was eligible for a tradeout. I asked them the cost, and they said it was totally free: DVR and dish would be traded out.
> 
> There is no change in the monthly fee. You are "leasing" the box now instead of owning it. I think this means that if you drop the service, they take back the box. *But there is no inplied warranty like cable TV does when you rent their boxes. You still need the insurance, I was told, if the thing breaks.*
> 
> They offered to come next Tuesday and install, so they are going quickly. Due to my schedule, I had to put it off until 9/13. :nono2:
> 
> I do have a Tivo HD DVR so it will be interesting to see how they are different. Hopefully the OTA tuners will be running by then.


From what has been discussed about the lease program since its inception it seems that D* is freely swapping out faulty equipment. There is no reason to buy their insurance in any case as your equipment would have to break down quite regularly to make the insurance payments worth it. Also, if you don't own it how can they charge you to fix it. It is their box and if they won't fix/replace it then they can't sell you any programming.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> According to a webcast from DirecTV earlier this year, DirecTV Broadband Video is scheduled for Q4 2006 with 2,000 titles at launch including stuff from HGTV, E!, HBO and Showtime. When you say "off in the distance", does this mean that DirecTV has postponed this?
> 
> ~Alan


Hmm.. I didn't think they put a date on it durin that presentation... I remember them talking about it in the presentation, just not the date.

I said off in the distance, as I havn't heard any updates on it recently.
I know they are pushing to get SAT based VOD here in the very near future...

I'll have to ask about IP based.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tfederov said:


> As a TiVo only owner, could you provide a video clip of the 30-second slip? I'd like to see what this is all about! Thanks in advance!


Sure... but it will have to wait till the weekend...
but for now Basically think of it as FF at 3x for exactly 30s of material...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> Hmm.. I didn't think they put a date on it durin that presentation... I remember them talking about it in the presentation, just not the date.


Latest DirecTV Group Webcast 02/22/2006

It's been a while since then, but it's on page #54.

~Alan<~~~~~~~Who is fixing to eat...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> Latest DirecTV Group Webcast 02/22/2006
> 
> It's been a while since then, but it's on page #54.
> 
> ~Alan<~~~~~~~Who is fixing to eat...


Thank you for the link... I remembered the cast...just not the date.
I will ask during my next conversation.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Alan Gordon said:


> Latest DirecTV Group Webcast 02/22/2006
> 
> It's been a while since then, but it's on page #54.
> 
> ~Alan<~~~~~~~Who is fixing to eat...


And if you look on page 31 you'll see the new Slimline dish.


----------



## HD-1080p

I just thought I would throw out my idea on the ethernet port on the back of the HD DVR. What I think it is for is since it does have a ethernet port it has to have an IP address for networking. So this means that it might be able to be pluged into a home network and use the DVR as a movie server. Meaning you could be on a computer on your network and then watch a movie or show that is recored and saved on the DVR's hard drive. I could be completely wrong but I just thought I would throw my idea out and see what you guys think. I work for an AV company and also going to school to become a licensed and certified installer and we do put movie and audio servers in so that is where I got the idea from.


----------



## Alan Gordon

theratpatrol said:


> And if you look on page 31 you'll see the new Slimline dish.


Yeah, I'm hoping to get a HR20 before they roll out the Slimline. Rain fade is an issue, and the AT9 should be better for that.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

HD-1080p said:


> I just thought I would throw out my idea on the ethernet port on the back of the HD DVR. What I think it is for is since it does have a ethernet port it has to have an IP address for networking. So this means that it might be able to be pluged into a home network and use the DVR as a movie server. Meaning you could be on a computer on your network and then watch a movie or show that is recored and saved on the DVR's hard drive. I could be completely wrong but I just thought I would throw my idea out and see what you guys think. I work for an AV company and also going to school to become a licensed and certified installer and we do put movie and audio servers in so that is where I got the idea from.


There are plans for allowing you to hook up to your computer and watch stuff... but there is also plans for the Broadband VOD, and on the link that I posted, there is mention of "_power line technology will replace difficult phone connections_" AND "_data port to connect via customers' broadband service_", which will more than likely use the ethernet port.

~Alan


----------



## vikingguy

Thanks for the review sounds promising. I just hope the kinks and bugs will be worked out by summer when I plan to get one. I will keep my HD-tivo for my most important shows like lost and other OTA stuff. I will not give up the tivo till I get a HR20 and get it to go several months with out missing a recording.


----------



## toy4two

Dumb question, I am a TIVO SONY T-60 owner, and I've never used a non-TIVO branded device.

Can I get this new HR20 and type in the topic names of what I like to watch, that is my favorite feature of my current TIVO.

I type in things I like for instance "San Diego Chargers" "Toyota" and "Pamela Anderson"

Then after a few weeks the TIVO is loaded up with all the Chargers games that happened at random times, the different local networks Chargers reports (different channels, different times), all the shows that review "Toyota" vehicles, and a list of all the shows "Pamela Anderson" was in that week.

I imagine this is a very basic feature and all DVRs have this, but my TIVO is an old Series 1 and I haven't kept up with all the new stuff like "dual tuners" all I want is to come home and have my favorite subjects waiting for me.

Does the HR-20 offer this???


----------



## Jim B

Hey Earl ~ Loved the review. I have an interesting thought for myself and my fellow R15 users who are quite frustrated with it's bugginess...... Would it be worth it to upgrade to the HR20 for the apparent stable platform EVEN though you only have SDTV, not HDTV? You'd get better software, more drive space to record, and the wonderful leasing program they offer now :lol: :lol: 

Seriously, I think it might be a good idea if one could haggle a good price for the upgrade. Some thoughts - Would D* force you to have the HD programming? Could you just get SD? Would you need the 5LNB dish if just HD? Or should you go ahead with the new equipment and use it as leverage to get the wife to let you buy a plasma?

I'd probably go for $50 - $100 for a bigger drive and stable system!

One final question - that 5LNB setup, is it nation wide, or just certain markets? I'm in southside Virginia and get Greensboro, Lynchburg and Roanoke locals over the sat and do not currently have HD, so this may be a stupid question....

Love the work you are doing for the rest of us out here :hurah: :hurah: 

Jim


----------



## Earl Bonovich

toy4two said:


> Dumb question, I am a TIVO SONY T-60 owner, and I've never used a non-TIVO branded device.
> 
> Can I get this new HR20 and type in the topic names of what I like to watch, that is my favorite feature of my current TIVO.
> 
> I type in things I like for instance "San Diego Chargers" "Toyota" and "Pamela Anderson"
> 
> Then after a few weeks the TIVO is loaded up with all the Chargers games that happened at random times, the different local networks Chargers reports (different channels, different times), all the shows that review "Toyota" vehicles, and a list of all the shows "Pamela Anderson" was in that week.
> 
> I imagine this is a very basic feature and all DVRs have this, but my TIVO is an old Series 1 and I haven't kept up with all the new stuff like "dual tuners" all I want is to come home and have my favorite subjects waiting for me.
> 
> Does the HR-20 offer this???


No, not really..
What you are talking about here is the TiVo Wishlists (and to an extent suggetsions)... Right now, you can do "some of it", but not to the same degree you appear to be used to.

There are KEYWORD searches which would be similar to "subjects", so really depends on the shows and subjects and stuff like that.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jim B said:


> Hey Earl ~ Loved the review. I have an interesting thought for myself and my fellow R15 users who are quite frustrated with it's bugginess...... Would it be worth it to upgrade to the HR20 for the apparent stable platform EVEN though you only have SDTV, not HDTV? You'd get better software, more drive space to record, and the wonderful leasing program they offer now :lol: :lol:
> 
> Seriously, I think it might be a good idea if one could haggle a good price for the upgrade. Some thoughts - Would D* force you to have the HD programming? Could you just get SD? Would you need the 5LNB dish if just HD? Or should you go ahead with the new equipment and use it as leverage to get the wife to let you buy a plasma?
> 
> I'd probably go for $50 - $100 for a bigger drive and stable system!
> 
> One final question - that 5LNB setup, is it nation wide, or just certain markets? I'm in southside Virginia and get Greensboro, Lynchburg and Roanoke locals over the sat and do not currently have HD, so this may be a stupid question....
> 
> Love the work you are doing for the rest of us out here :hurah: :hurah:
> 
> Jim


In all honesty... I halted my search for another R15 (and wouldn't you know it today someone contact me with an R15-300).... right now, I have of adding a 2nd HR20 to the main room and getting rid of my HR10 and DSR704... then when the prices get right... the R15's will go too.

The unit is *THAT* much better, IMHO.... 
The R15 is still a viable product.... and will be all that is needed for some people.. and is still being improved and worked on...

But honestly.. if you have the extra money... the HR20 would be the way to go for massive hard drive for SD material, and the better outputs... and even access to the extra DIGITAL OTA stations (when activated) (such as the sub-channnels and stuff like that)...


----------



## BillyT2002

Sure - ignore my red LED question way back on page 6. Will DirecTV create a version of the HR20 with red LEDs to give it a Cyclon look and feel? I'd like red LEDs instead of blue. Also to really giv it that Cyclon look and feel from the original BG, they should offer chrome silver and chrome gold cases as well.

In general though, I really wish consumer electronics companies would offer more choices for case color and LED color (if they're going to use LEDs).


----------



## bpayne

BillyT2002 said:


> Sure - ignore my red LED question way back on page 6. Will DirecTV create a version of the HR20 with red LEDs to give it a Cyclon look and feel? I'd like red LEDs instead of blue. Also to really giv it that Cyclon look and feel from the original BG, they should offer chrome silver and chrome gold cases as well.
> 
> In general though, I really wish consumer electronics companies would offer more choices for case color and LED color (if they're going to use LEDs).


DirecTV is going to release a glossy black (think Pioneer Elite-esque) version of the HR20. Don't think the red LEDs are in the cards though.


----------



## yaiyai

AppliedAggression said:


> Hope they plan to add jump to ticks at least.


According to the R15 user manual page 22,

Bookmarks: "Bookmarks" are a way of keeping track of places in a program you'd like to jump to quickly. You can set Bookmarks in a recorded program by pressing PAUSE then the GREEN key. They can be deleted by pressing PAUSE, then the DASH key. You can jump to Bookmarks by pressing and holding the FFWD key to move forward, or the REWIND key to move back, or via the Quick Menu.

Have you try that yet? Does it work on HR20?


----------



## Jim B

Earl Bonovich said:


> In all honesty... I halted my search for another R15 (and wouldn't you know it today someone contact me with an R15-300).... right now, I have of adding a 2nd HR20 to the main room and getting rid of my HR10 and DSR704... then when the prices get right... the R15's will go too.
> 
> The unit is *THAT* much better, IMHO....
> The R15 is still a viable product.... and will be all that is needed for some people.. and is still being improved and worked on...
> 
> But honestly.. if you have the extra money... the HR20 would be the way to go for massive hard drive for SD material, and the better outputs... and even access to the extra DIGITAL OTA stations (when activated) (such as the sub-channnels and stuff like that)...


Thanks for the opinion Earl, I really respect your's after milling about in these forums for the last six months. I know you're overwhelmed right now, so do you or others have any ideas about the technical issues with this proposal - like forced HD programming (it's $11/month, right?), 3LNB versus 5LNB (ie, ask for it or not, is it available everywhere) and so on. Please feel free to redirect this post elsewhere if this is not the best place.....
Thanks in advance!  
Jim


----------



## Wally of Escondido

I received a letter that entitles me to a HD receiver upgrade with free receiver installation and new satelite dish (required). I called the 800 number and the guy had no idea of what I was talking about. I wanted to know if the upgrade from my HD receiver to the new one was the HR20-700, he said I would get what-ever they had in the warehouse! And it would cost me $499 and they would keep my old receiver and dish. Do I wait or do I spend the $499 and hope it is the HR20, I live in southern California so it might be. So many questions now that they come out with what I want.


----------



## Wolffpack

BillyT2002 said:


> Sure - ignore my red LED question way back on page 6. Will DirecTV create a version of the HR20 with red LEDs to give it a Cyclon look and feel? I'd like red LEDs instead of blue. Also to really giv it that Cyclon look and feel from the original BG, they should offer chrome silver and chrome gold cases as well.
> 
> In general though, I really wish consumer electronics companies would offer more choices for case color and LED color (if they're going to use LEDs).


Those LEDs on the board can do pretty much any color. Remember when the REC light use to be red and is now amber? That's just the same LED on the front panel as the ones around the eye. Voltage/programming changes the color.


----------



## Wolffpack

tfederov said:


> As a TiVo only owner, could you provide a video clip of the 30-second slip? I'd like to see what this is all about! Thanks in advance!


Think of it as a 30 second FF over 3 seconds. Press it 3 times your slip 90 seconds over 9 seconds. Better than nothing, but not quite the Tivo skip.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

BillyT2002 said:


> Sure - ignore my red LED question way back on page 6. Will DirecTV create a version of the HR20 with red LEDs to give it a Cyclon look and feel? I'd like red LEDs instead of blue. Also to really giv it that Cyclon look and feel from the original BG, they should offer chrome silver and chrome gold cases as well.
> 
> In general though, I really wish consumer electronics companies would offer more choices for case color and LED color (if they're going to use LEDs).


I wasn't ignoring... I thought you where making a joke about the poster that stole the avatar, and changed the blue to red.... 

Blue is DirecTV's core color.... I do agree, that they should at least offer the Silver or Black option for the cases....

And Page 6... that was like so.... yesterday


----------



## Earl Bonovich

yaiyai said:


> According to the R15 user manual page 22,
> 
> Bookmarks: "Bookmarks" are a way of keeping track of places in a program you'd like to jump to quickly. You can set Bookmarks in a recorded program by pressing PAUSE then the GREEN key. They can be deleted by pressing PAUSE, then the DASH key. You can jump to Bookmarks by pressing and holding the FFWD key to move forward, or the REWIND key to move back, or via the Quick Menu.
> 
> Have you try that yet? Does it work on HR20?


No, I haven't tried the Bookmark feature...
It would be a good way to "save your spot" in the recording, but in the 10ish months I have used the R15... I haven't found a practical reason to use it....

But none the less.... I will give it a shot this weekend.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jim B said:


> Thanks for the opinion Earl, I really respect your's after milling about in these forums for the last six months. I know you're overwhelmed right now, so do you or others have any ideas about the technical issues with this proposal - like forced HD programming (it's $11/month, right?), 3LNB versus 5LNB (ie, ask for it or not, is it available everywhere) and so on. Please feel free to redirect this post elsewhere if this is not the best place.....
> Thanks in advance!
> Jim


The HD package is an add-on package just like all the other ones... It is only $9.99 right now. A whiles back they did have a promotion that required the HD package... but I don't think it is the case this time...

I have seen any "official" statements or information on pricing, but no one has mentinoed it any of the threads (regarding people who have ordered everything)...

As for the 5LNB... They will probably want to install it (and usually it has been free in most cases), just for the sake of you being ready for MPEG-4 when there is something available to you.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wally of Escondido said:


> I received a letter that entitles me to a HD receiver upgrade with free receiver installation and new satelite dish (required). I called the 800 number and the guy had no idea of what I was talking about. I wanted to know if the upgrade from my HD receiver to the new one was the HR20-700, he said I would get what-ever they had in the warehouse! And it would cost me $499 and they would keep my old receiver and dish. Do I wait or do I spend the $499 and hope it is the HR20, I live in southern California so it might be. So many questions now that they come out with what I want.


Over the last couple weeks, we have had a few posts like yours.
Honestly..... just call the main DirecTV line and talk to them.... I am not sure where this letter is comming from... If is DirecTV directly, another authorized vendor, or what...

Just call DirecTV's main contact inforamtion and work with the reps there..
Some people are getting very good deals.


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

Alan Gordon said:


> Yeah, I'm hoping to get a HR20 before they roll out the Slimline. Rain fade is an issue, and the AT9 should be better for that.
> 
> ~Alan


Alan, I'm not sure the Slim Line dish will deliver less dB's, the same signal strength or possibly even more signal as the design is far more electrically efficient.

The same issues were discussed when DIRECTV designed the phase III 18x20 antenna dish system vs. the older 18x24 design. The combined LNBs made up for the smaller reflector. The Slim Line antenna dish system achieves the same design and electrical efficiencies of combining the multiple LNB's into one internal device, therefore eliminating the jumper cables and extra connectors.

-Robert


----------



## nogdas

Earl Bonovich said:


> Over the last couple weeks, we have had a few posts like yours.
> Honestly..... just call the main DirecTV line and talk to them.... I am not sure where this letter is comming from... If is DirecTV directly, another authorized vendor, or what...
> 
> Just call DirecTV's main contact inforamtion and work with the reps there..
> Some people are getting very good deals.


No do not call the main line at all.

Cal one of the below numbers.

OFFICE OF PRESIDENT
888 237-8327
310-964-5000

RETENTION
800-824-9081

TITANIUM
877-337-4388


----------



## Earl Bonovich

nogdas said:


> TITANIUM
> 877-337-4388


Call titanium if you got about $7,500 to drop on the Titanium package...
But that is a discussion for another thread...


----------



## DTV TiVo Dealer

Earl, I was told we may see DIRECTV2GO on the HR20-700, can you check this out.

-Robert


----------



## Wolffpack

nogdas said:


> No do not call the main line at all.
> 
> Cal one of the below numbers.
> 
> OFFICE OF PRESIDENT
> 888 237-8327
> 310-964-5000
> 
> RETENTION
> 800-824-9081
> 
> TITANIUM
> 877-337-4388


Why would a non-titanium customer call that number. In fact why call the Office of the Pres. The question was that a member received a letter that said he could get some stuff. He called and the CSR didn't know anything about that. Typical. The retention number is valid but other than that everyone knows you just call back again and ask a different CSR.

You call the OoP or TIT and asking about an upgrade your just going to be forwarded elsewhere.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> Earl, I was told we may see DIRECTV2GO on the HR20-700, can you check this out.
> 
> -Robert


I think the HR20-700 is DirecTV2Go ready.... but DirecTV2Go isn't ready ToGo yet...

I don't have one of the announced devices for DirecTV2Go, so I can't even test to see if they snuck it in there.


----------



## nogdas

Wolffpack said:


> Why would a non-titanium customer call that number. In fact why call the Office of the Pres. The question was that a member received a letter that said he could get some stuff. He called and the CSR didn't know anything about that. Typical. The retention number is valid but other than that everyone knows you just call back again and ask a different CSR.
> 
> You call the OoP or TIT and asking about an upgrade your just going to be forwarded elsewhere.


Titanium was mistake. O of P is hghest level CSR'S and you can get some good stuff from them. I have a few new backlit remotes coming my way. no cost.

on a side note, tey are not releasing the "kit yet" antenna, Earl any news on when that is coming out ?


----------



## bryanb

When using native output resolution, can you tell the box what resolutions your TV supports? For example my TV doesn't support 480i over HDMI, so I'd want the box to output 480p.

b


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Earl, this site http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/top/directv-hr20700-hd-dvr-first-review-in-the-wild-194726.php says that

"Best Buy prematurely(?) sold Earl Bonovich-if that is his real name-one of DirecTV's new HR20-700 high definition digital video recorders."

Is this true, I thought it was lease only?

Thanks.


----------



## Jeremy W

bryanb said:


> When using native output resolution, can you tell the box what resolutions your TV supports?


Yes, there is a list of all of the resolutions and you can go through and enable or disable whichever ones you want.


theratpatrol said:


> Is this true, I thought it was lease only?


It's a joke, Earl didn't get his HR20 from Best Buy...


----------



## darrin1471

Hi
I own shares in Pace and have been following Earls review of the HR20. Pace make stb's for many of the News Corp sat Co's.
You may wish to look at the Pace web site. It is not always up to date but it may give you a clue to some of the future functions for the HR20. The UK site has different material to the US site.

http://www.pace.co.uk

www dot Pace dot co dot uk ( As I have less than 5 postings I can not post the link )

go to product information and under the select a set top box drop down menu go to:
PVR2GO
multi-dweller
multiroom

"Pause Live TV with 'Follow Me' Feature.
Each user can pause a live programme, then move to a different room and continue watching the same programme from the same point"

Dual Record.
The viewer at each STB can record up to two programmes simultaneously even while watching another programme from previously recorded material on the HDD. The HDD is capable of playing 4 and recording 8 programmes simultaneously

Hope this is of interest

Pace are also contracted to make a new box for Comcast but details are scarce

_Moderator Edit: I added the full actually hyperlink, since it is a good address to have... thanks for it_


----------



## newsposter

Earl Bonovich said:


> Pause: Well... tonight it decided not to work like it has at other times.
> I couldn't get the unit to remember a pause point..  But it has worked before, so that means it can do it... just not doing it now....


How disappointing. We frequently watch stuff and stop and do other things etc. having to find my point in any show would get frustrating after a while. Is this a software issue or its intended method of operation?

my t60 or hdtivo have returned to the same point 100% of the time. They may not be as fast, but they are more accurate at least


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bryanb said:


> When using native output resolution, can you tell the box what resolutions your TV supports? For example my TV doesn't support 480i over HDMI, so I'd want the box to output 480p.
> 
> b


Yes, you can configure what resolutions your TV supports, and the Native resolution will only select from those configured resolutions


----------



## Earl Bonovich

theratpatrol said:


> Earl, this site http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/top/directv-hr20700-hd-dvr-first-review-in-the-wild-194726.php says that
> 
> "Best Buy prematurely(?) sold Earl Bonovich-if that is his real name-one of DirecTV's new HR20-700 high definition digital video recorders."
> 
> Is this true, I thought it was lease only?
> 
> Thanks.


 As Jermey posted... yah.. I think they where trying to make a funny....

As far as I know it is Lease only... and I didn't get it from Best Buy (I think they "clipped" that piece from engadget....

I've been applying to be a "commentator" there, so I can correct it...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

newsposter said:


> How disappointing. We frequently watch stuff and stop and do other things etc. having to find my point in any show would get frustrating after a while. Is this a software issue or its intended method of operation?
> 
> my t60 or hdtivo have returned to the same point 100% of the time. They may not be as fast, but they are more accurate at least


Definently a software issue, that can be fixed/changed... as it does work the way you expect to (with regards to the pause) sometimes.


----------



## Bobman

Earl please do not not take offence  with this question but I am sincerly curious about something.

When you say the HR20 has not locked up once and it is recording every SL correctly and working fast, is it "really" and what will others discover when they use it ? 

I am asking as many bought the R-15 because of your review, myself included, and after 9 months of using the R-15, you seem to have the only problem free, or way closer to perfect than anyone else R-15 around.

I am wondering if "again" you will have the only near perfect DVR ?


----------



## walters

Bobman said:


> Earl please do not not take offence  with this question but I am sincerly curious about something.
> 
> When you say the HR20 has not locked up once and it is recording every SL correctly and working fast, is it "really" and what will others discover when they use it ?
> 
> I am asking as many bought the R-15 because of your review, myself included, and after 9 months of using the R-15, you seem to have the only problem free, or way closer to perfect than anyone else R-15 around.
> 
> I am wondering if "again" you will have the only near perfect DVR ?


I was thinking along the same lines just before the review came out. Then I went back and re-read the R15 review and realized he appeared to be pretty much writing it while he opened the box. This one was written after two weeks (I think) of using it. Still not quite long enough to really know the machine, but better than the R15. And he seems to have specifically tested known problems with the R15 (to do list limit, slow prioritizer, repeats, etc.)


----------



## f300v10

walters said:


> I was thinking along the same lines just before the review came out. Then I went back and re-read the R15 review and realized he appeared to be pretty much writing it while he opened the box. This one was written after two weeks (I think) of using it. Still not quite long enough to really know the machine, but better than the R15. And he seems to have specifically tested known problems with the R15 (to do list limit, slow prioritizer, repeats, etc.)


Any early review will fail to uncover some issues. But you are correct with the R15 review, it was done as Earl tested it. I recall it even crashed on him while doing the initial setup. With 2 weeks on the unit and enough recordings to fill 50% of the 250G drive I think this review is more in line with what the end user can expect. 2 weeks without a crash/hang is alot better than the less than 1 hour the R15 managed.


----------



## mpoyner

walters said:


> Lost buffer isn't the only drawback. It's just the most visible. There's also SL limits, lack of true wishlists.


What does this mean? How does this box deal with wishlists? Why is it not true wishlists and is this an inferior version than how Tivo does it?

Also, is it a possibility that a software update for this thing could happen soon after launch to add the tickmarks functionality. To me, that is a laughably inept design for a DVR. Why in the hell should you have to do normal fast-forwarding to get to the end of a 3.5HR football game, etc? That's ridiculous to not have that included.


----------



## AppliedAggression

Earl Bonovich said:


> As Jermey posted... yah.. I think they where trying to make a funny....
> 
> As far as I know it is Lease only... and I didn't get it from Best Buy (I think they "clipped" that piece from engadget....
> 
> I've been applying to be a "commentator" there, so I can correct it...


Those pictures on Engadget from Best Buy aren't the HR20, it's the Directvo HD DVR. If you look closely you can see the Tivo logo on one of the boxes as one of the comments suggests.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mpoyner said:


> What does this mean? How does this box deal with wishlists? Why is it not true wishlists and is this an inferior version than how Tivo does it?
> 
> Also, is it a possibility that a software update for this thing could happen soon after launch to add the tickmarks functionality. To me, that is a laughably inept design for a DVR. Why in the hell should you have to do normal fast-forwarding to get to the end of a 3.5HR football game, etc? That's ridiculous to not have that included.


It doesn't really "deal" with WishLists... there are some Keyword search options, with auto-record... but it just isn't the same... especially for a power WishList user.

As for the SkipTo Tick.... that is a software thing, that could be added at a later time..

Actually to get to the end, you can just hold the forward advance button for a few seconds and you jump straight to the end.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Bobman said:


> Earl please do not not take offence  with this question but I am sincerly curious about something.
> 
> When you say the HR20 has not locked up once and it is recording every SL correctly and working fast, is it "really" and what will others discover when they use it ?
> 
> I am asking as many bought the R-15 because of your review, myself included, and after 9 months of using the R-15, you seem to have the only problem free, or way closer to perfect than anyone else R-15 around.
> 
> I am wondering if "again" you will have the only near perfect DVR ?





walters said:


> I was thinking along the same lines just before the review came out. Then I went back and re-read the R15 review and realized he appeared to be pretty much writing it while he opened the box. This one was written after two weeks (I think) of using it. Still not quite long enough to really know the machine, but better than the R15. And he seems to have specifically tested known problems with the R15 (to do list limit, slow prioritizer, repeats, etc.)





f300v10 said:


> Any early review will fail to uncover some issues. But you are correct with the R15 review, it was done as Earl tested it. I recall it even crashed on him while doing the initial setup. With 2 weeks on the unit and enough recordings to fill 50% of the 250G drive I think this review is more in line with what the end user can expect. 2 weeks without a crash/hang is alot better than the less than 1 hour the R15 managed.


I learned a lot from the R15 review, and the way it was done.
You guys are right... it was basically done as a blog... as the unit was comming out of it's box... It wasn't a proper review by a long shot.

I made a lot of changes this time.... I used the box as my primary receiver for many days before even starting to document anything for the review..... Including the internal photos.

Even now... a fully week later after starting the Review process... the unit still hasn't "locked" or need to be reset for any "negative" reasons... (I have reset it on purpose for some other reasons, like... moving it)

I also took a lot of the cases we have tried in the R15 land (not all of them, but a lot of them), and tried them out. Even then it was not as an exahustive testing of the unit as I wanted it to be... simply not enough time.

My R15's are stubborn at times... not as bad as some of yours, but they are not angles either all the time.

One thing I can say though: with the Stargate Marathon going on this week on Sci-Fi..... the HR20 hasn't recorded one of them... which is what I expect, since I only want the first runs.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

AppliedAggression said:


> Those pictures on Engadget from Best Buy aren't the HR20, it's the Directvo HD DVR. If you look closely you can see the Tivo logo on one of the boxes as one of the comments suggests.


FYI in the addendum to the Release Thread (last post),
I posted a picture of the HR20 box...


----------



## walters

mpoyner said:


> What does this mean? How does this box deal with wishlists? Why is it not true wishlists and is this an inferior version than how Tivo does it?


This particular peeve is better served by ad301. I suspect he may chime in before long (I suspect he has a "wishlist" wishlist on these forums ). Until then, here's a good summary:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=489376&postcount=8

One of the biggest problems with autorecord finds, really, is the 50 SL limit. It's nice to be able to make dozens (or for some people, hundreds) of very narrow wishlists (e.g. a particular movie or a specific episode of a show) and just wait for them to fire. It's great when that wishlist you set two years ago and forgot about finally ends up in Now Playing. You can't do that when you're limited to 50 SLs (including autorecord searches).


----------



## ad301

Disclaimer: I do not have an hr20, this reply is based on the r15. Earl has indicated that the hr20 seems to be functionally unchanged from the r15 in this area.


mpoyner said:


> What does this mean? How does this box deal with wishlists? Why is it not true wishlists and is this an inferior version than how Tivo does it?


The r15 does not allow you to save searches for an indefinite time. It has a limit of 25 on recent searches, meaning that once you've done 25 searches, the oldest one is lost the next time you run a search. You can, however, delete a search you no longer wish to keep, to pare down the list of recent searches. You can save a search by making it an auto-recording search, but there is a limit of 50 items in the prioritizer, which includes all series links as well as auto-records. And, unfortunately, there is no way to simultaneously check all searches, whether recent or saved as auto-recording. If you wish to review recent searches for matches, you must check each one individually. Also, the keyword search terms are simpler, allowing only words or phrases, not multiple keywords, and there are no wildcards. Those are some of the issues off the top of my head, there may be more.

If you're only a casual user of WLs on your tivo, you may find the r15 (and presumably hr20) to be adequate for your needs. If you use WLs to any greater extent, or rely on them for certain tasks such as recording sports teams' games, you will absolutely hate this step backwards in capability. For instance, on one of my hr10-250s, I have a WL of over 200 items, mostly movie titles, very few of which are auto-recording. This type of usage (which I understand is probably not the norm!  ) is utterly impossible on the r15.


mpoyner said:


> Also, is it a possibility that a software update for this thing could happen soon after launch to add the tickmarks functionality. To me, that is a laughably inept design for a DVR. Why in the hell should you have to do normal fast-forwarding to get to the end of a 3.5HR football game, etc? That's ridiculous to not have that included.


This was brought up within hours of the r15 getting into the hands of users, back in November. Nine months later we're still waiting.

I'd suggest that people looking for more information on way the hr20 operates would serve themselves well by reviewing message traffic in the r15 section here. The r15 has been thoroughly discussed and dissected since November, and it seems that the UI of the hr20 is virtually identical.


----------



## redmption

This new DVR might actually be worth it if there were more than 5 HD channels on DTV... Why oh why is Sunday Ticket only available on DTV?
Regardless, good job Earl. You are a hero to millions


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ESPN HD
ESPN-2 HD
Universal HD
TNT-HD
Discovery HD
HD-NET
HD Movies-NET

HBO-HD
SHOW-HD

Then if you are in the right area (and varries a little bit by area)
CBS/NBC/ABC/FOX HD

And then some areas have RSNs already

7 - in the HD package
2 - in their corresponding premium package
4 - Include in the locals package
1ish - RSNs

Few more then 5... but I know what you are trying to say.
They are still on the lower end of the HD national totals (as compared to other cariers)

2007 we "should" see a lot of change in the number of HD networks on DirecTV.


----------



## mpoyner

ad301 said:


> Also, the keyword search terms are simpler, allowing only words or phrases, not multiple keywords, and there are no wildcards.


So, does this mean that I can't put in keywords "Maryland" and "Basketball" in order for it to record all Maryland Terps basketball games? "Maryland" and "Football" for it to record Terps football?

I suppose I'm lucky that "Redskins" won't really find many matches other than the Washington Redskins football games, so that will probably work out ok for me.

Those are mainly the only things I use Wishlists for currently.

Other question: you are calling them "searches", which I assume is how the R15 refers to them. I'm a little confused on how that works. If I do a search for "Redskins", it will bring up a couple of upcoming preseason games only, not the ones that are a few weeks away or longer, right? So, if I "save" this search, does this mean that it will also set up to record the other games as they become available in the guide data, or will I have to do a new search every couple of weeks to make sure it is recording every game?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

As to not bring the thread too far off track (Even though Seaching is a viable discussion on this product).

Let's focus the Search discussion to this thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=630583#post630583


----------



## ad301

mpoyner said:


> So, does this mean that I can't put in keywords "Maryland" and "Basketball" in order for it to record all Maryland Terps basketball games? "Maryland" and "Football" for it to record Terps football?


Correct. Unless the program description contains the exact phrase "Maryland Basketball" it wouldn't work. You could probably do one for "Maryland" and use the category Basketball and it might work. But you can't refine searches by using multiple keywords.

I found another summary I wrote on this issue, if you're interested it's here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=611040&postcount=41



mpoyner said:


> Those are mainly the only things I use Wishlists for currently.


Then you probably won't find the new way of doing things to be a deal-breaker.



mpoyner said:


> Other question: you are calling them "searches", which I assume is how the R15 refers to them. I'm a little confused on how that works. If I do a search for "Redskins", it will bring up a couple of upcoming preseason games only, not the ones that are a few weeks away or longer, right? So, if I "save" this search, does this mean that it will also set up to record the other games as they become available in the guide data, or will I have to do a new search every couple of weeks to make sure it is recording every game?


No, in that regard it will work if you set the search to auto-record. It will find new games as they are added to the guide. Be aware, though, that on the r15 (we don't know yet whether this has been fixed on the hr20), searches require constant checking of the todo list to make sure they don't set a recording on a channel you don't receive. It may not happen often, but it can happen.


----------



## JoeSchueller

ToddD said:


> First things first. Much thanks go out to Earl for taking up his time here with us vs playing with his new toy....how many of us would make that choice.
> 
> <CLIPPED>
> 
> All in all as a long time HR 10 owner I'd say that I find the HR 20 to be a OK receiver. I should note that I had expected to not like it at all, but I'm willing to give it a chance. But what really has me excited is the MCE plans for next year with Vista.....but that's another topic......


Is there more info on the MCE and Windows Vista plans anywere? I'm VERY interested in possible HTPC integration with D* and have found very little info.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Please continue the Search and Wishlist functionality in this other thread...
It is an important topic, and I don't want it lost in this big discussion thread..



Earl Bonovich said:


> Let's focus the Search discussion to this thread:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=630583#post630583


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JoeSchueller said:


> Is there more info on the MCE and Windows Vista plans anywere? I'm VERY interested in possible HTPC integration with D* and have found very little info.


There has been very very little information released about it.
Other then what was said at CES 2006... and a few articles re-reporting the same stuff.

In a few weeks after the initial wave of the HR20, I will see if I can learn any new details.


----------



## JoeSchueller

Thanks Earl... I doubt I'll personally be able to wait for those plans to actually come to life (from either D* or M$). I really appreciate your perspective thus far on the HR20. I was a TiVo zealot with my T60, I've found the HR10 has drained much of my love for TiVo, and I'm really looking forward to trying out the HR20 and finding a new list of things to complain about ;-)

Looking back on your posts here and at TiVoCommunity, it seems we use DVR's quite similarly. If you're someone who does NOT use TiVo suggestions or extensively use wishlists, you're not going to feel the the HR20 is a big step back from a functionality POV, right? A quick summary of these 16 pages would indicate:
1) The thing is fast
2) It is stable
3) The guide doesn't overlay the whole screen, so you can actually watch TV while waiting to set up a recording or something like that. (I hate having to pause before setting any recording or doing anything with my HR10).
4) It has folders 
5) It supports native resolutions
6) It will have an OTA tuner which will somehow integrate with the guide
7) It doesn't have tick marks
8) It doesn't FF as well (no auto correct) but it can be worked around
9) SLIP isn't quite as good as S-P-S-3-0-S, but isn't bad
10) You can actually use the interactive/mix channels
11) Your HDMI port has never failed or locked up.

One last quick question, how's the heat management. My HR10 was running so hot and I've been so paranoid about it failing that I added a PC cooling fan to the back of my AV cabinet. Does the HR20 run any cooler/hotter than the HR10.

Thanks for playing guinea pig... D* owes you one.


----------



## ad301

Sorry Earl, didn't mean to hijack your thread.


----------



## jpepping

JoeSchueller said:


> 8) It doesn't FF as well (no auto correct) but it can be worked around
> .


This is a bummer,:nono: I really like the fact that when FF through commericals and I see the start of the program and hit play the HR10-250 will scoot back a bit.

The HR20 does not do this???:eek2: This was the only place (and I am keeping up on this long thread) that I saw this.

thanks

Jim


----------



## Clint Lamor

jpepping said:


> This is a bummer,:nono: I really like the fact that when FF through commericals and I see the start of the program and hit play the HR10-250 will scoot back a bit.
> 
> The HR20 does not do this???:eek2: This was the only place (and I am keeping up on this long thread) that I saw this.
> 
> thanks
> 
> Jim


You can hit the jump back button and it will do it, it just doesn't do it on it's own.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ad301 said:


> Sorry Earl, didn't mean to hijack your thread.


No problems... you didn't hijack it...
It is a valid topic, and I don't want it to get lost with the rest of the discussion..

It merits it's own discussion.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JoeSchueller said:


> One last quick question, how's the heat management. My HR10 was running so hot and I've been so paranoid about it failing that I added a PC cooling fan to the back of my AV cabinet. Does the HR20 run any cooler/hotter than the HR10.
> 
> Thanks for playing guinea pig... D* owes you one.


Heat... I have hand a single issue with heat releated.

In fact, the unit is signficantly cooler then the H20-600
And the only fan in the unit is directly on the hard drive... no back fan in the unit.

But if you look at the top view.... the top of teh case (which is shaped like the DirecTV logo), has plenty of room for heat to be released...

So I probably wouldn't recommending putting anything on top of it... but heat wise.... no problems.


----------



## YankeeFan

Earl, another question, this time about hard disk space. Do you have any idea of when/if the external SATA will be enabled to allow us to expand the measly 250 GB hard drive that comes with this unit? Is swapping the the 250MB for say a 500 GB drive even possible? I currently have two 300 GB's in my HR10-250 and it would suck to go down to less than half of that....


----------



## net17

ToddD said:


> 3) FTM. The one cable solution is already in place for MDU customers. You can buy the equipment to do FTM today....but you'd not like the cost. A home version is to come soon I am told. The home version adds new things that are not a part of the MDU version and I think will be a very exciting and important part of the Directv story going forward. You would not believe the number of people who will not "upgrade" from cable because they would have to add cable to their homes.


Is there even a way to pass MPEG4 content with any FTM equipment? I live in an MDU (and as much as I love my apartment building, the D* service sucks, how I envy you guys who are regular subscribers, as I used to be one) so this issue is near and dear to my heart. So if FTM is built into this box that would be the best news EVER!


----------



## wmschultz

YankeeFan said:


> Earl, another question, this time about hard disk space. Do you have any idea of when/if the external SATA will be enabled to allow us to expand the measly 250 GB hard drive that comes with this unit? Is swapping the the 250MB for say a 500 GB drive even possible? I currently have two 300 GB's in my HR10-250 and it would suck to go down to less than half of that....


What on earth are you recording and when the heck do you find the time to watch
600 GB worth of TV? Good grief....... This wasn't meant to be a personal shot, I just
don't get it....I have problems sitting down to get to watch 2 Tivo'd hours of TV.


----------



## YankeeFan

wmschultz said:


> What on earth are you recording and when the heck do you find the time to watch
> 600 GB worth of TV? Good grief....... This wasn't meant to be a personal shot, I just
> don't get it....I have problems sitting down to get to watch 2 Tivo'd hours of TV.


That's only about 65 hrs of HD.... (true OTA HD, not the over compressed HD Lite stuff that D* sends us). I record a lot of baseball games and a lot of series which I let 4 or 5 episodes back up due to my schedule and watch them whenever I get the chance....I just finished watching the last episode of last season's West Wing (which was broadcast in May I think).


----------



## monetnj

Earl,
Is the unit very loud? I have two hr10-250s and sometimes in a completely quiet room, the sound of the hard drives whirring was a bit distracting.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

YankeeFan said:


> Earl, another question, this time about hard disk space. Do you have any idea of when/if the external SATA will be enabled to allow us to expand the measly 250 GB hard drive that comes with this unit? Is swapping the the 250MB for say a 500 GB drive even possible? I currently have two 300 GB's in my HR10-250 and it would suck to go down to less than half of that....


From what I told... they are investigationg options on how to appropriately use the eSATA port... so eventually there will be something...what? I don't know though.

As for the Internal drive.... I am waiting to get my hands on a large SATA drive, and another HR20 so I can tinker with that a bit....

Some one reported that the OEM drive that is in there, is part of the same "series" as a 750gb SATA from Seagate... one can hope that it is simple as plug and play....

Hopefully I will have some exact answers for you in the comming weeks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

wmschultz said:


> What on earth are you recording and when the heck do you find the time to watch
> 600 GB worth of TV? Good grief....... This wasn't meant to be a personal shot, I just
> don't get it....I have problems sitting down to get to watch 2 Tivo'd hours of TV.


Also to add.

with the MPEG-4 that is about 40 hours of HD.... I record 9+ 1 hour shows in HD a week during primetime... then a good handfull of other 30 minutes, and SD programs...

That hard drive can fill up VERY quickly....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

monetnj said:


> Earl,
> Is the unit very loud? I have two hr10-250s and sometimes in a completely quiet room, the sound of the hard drives whirring was a bit distracting.


Silent... as far as I can tell.

I do have it sitting on top of two Dtivos though.
The R15's are very quiet... and from what I can tell on the inside, with the rubber grommets.... the HR20 should be as equally quiet.

I will know for certain in about two weeks when I pull out the other two tivos that are there.


----------



## Wolffpack

I didn't note this being discussed, but how's the Jump Back work on the HR20 compared to the R15? Does it consistently jump back the same amount of time or is it like the R15 where sometimes it's 2-3 seconds and sometimes 5-6?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wolffpack said:


> I didn't note this being discussed, but how's the Jump Back work on the HR20 compared to the R15? Does it consistently jump back the same amount of time or is it like the R15 where sometimes it's 2-3 seconds and sometimes 5-6?


So far it has been consistant at the 3 second point.

Going to record a football game this weekend so I have a "clock"


----------



## anubys

Earl Bonovich said:


> From what I told... they are investigationg options on how to appropriately use the eSATA port... so eventually there will be something...what? I don't know though.


since they're still discussing it, maybe we can try to influence their decision? it seems to me that your voice will be heard on this issue...can you find out the options that are currently being discussed and see if we can vote on them?

sort of including this community as a focus group for the various options...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

anubys said:


> since they're still discussing it, maybe we can try to influence their decision? it seems to me that your voice will be heard on this issue...can you find out the options that are currently being discussed and see if we can vote on them?
> 
> sort of including this community as a focus group for the various options...


Let's do just that....

See the new thread....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62207


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Earl Bonovich said:


> As Jermey posted... yah.. I think they where trying to make a funny....
> 
> As far as I know it is Lease only... and I didn't get it from Best Buy (I think they "clipped" that piece from engadget....
> 
> I've been applying to be a "commentator" there, so I can correct it...


I know that D* is going to a lease only. So howcome Best Buy is still selling receivers? I swear I saw an H20 HD receiver there, or could that have been an older MPEG2 HD receiver that I saw instead?

Now I'm confussed. Sorry.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Some of the major retailers can still "sell" the hardware.... but it still ends up being a lease...

There is a thread in the General forum that discusses a little bit about the Least program.


----------



## bpayne

net17 said:


> Is there even a way to pass MPEG4 content with any FTM equipment? I live in an MDU (and as much as I love my apartment building, the D* service sucks, how I envy you guys who are regular subscribers, as I used to be one) so this issue is near and dear to my heart. So if FTM is built into this box that would be the best news EVER!


FTM was built and designed specifically with MDU systems in mind. Talk with your property manager about what it would take to set up a centralized MDU system- there is a special projects division within DirecTV that can plan the system, put it together and get it installed.


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl,

Have you tried running any of the free port scanners against the network connection on the unit? Did it indeed grab an IP address from DHCP and are there any ports responding?


----------



## dswallow

theratpatrol said:


> I know that D* is going to a lease only. So howcome Best Buy is still selling receivers? I swear I saw an H20 HD receiver there, or could that have been an older MPEG2 HD receiver that I saw instead?


Receiver sales still exist. DirecTV did NOT go to lease-only. They went to a model where leasing is the default method and generally least expensive method of getting a receiver. A DirecTV dealer can still sell receivers but among other things, they don't get any sort of credit/spiff except in lease cases, so they have to price sold units at or above their own cost (or take a loss).


----------



## Alan Gordon

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> Alan, I'm not sure the Slim Line dish will deliver less dB's, the same signal strength or possibly even more signal as the design is far more electrically efficient.
> 
> The same issues were discussed when DIRECTV designed the phase III 18x20 antenna dish system vs. the older 18x24 design. The combined LNBs made up for the smaller reflector. The Slim Line antenna dish system achieves the same design and electrical efficiencies of combining the multiple LNB's into one internal device, therefore eliminating the jumper cables and extra connectors.


I've heard other people say that it would be less susceptible... so I just believed them. If I had gotten a SlimLine dish, I wouldn't have complained, but rain fade can be a problem here whenever it rains, so any additional help I can get is great!!

~Alan


----------



## YankeeFan

dswallow said:


> Receiver sales still exist. DirecTV did NOT go to lease-only. They went to a model where leasing is the default method and generally least expensive method of getting a receiver. A DirecTV dealer can still sell receivers but among other things, they don't get any sort of credit/spiff except in lease cases, so they have to price sold units at or above their own cost (or take a loss).


So you are saying that I don't HAVE to lease an HR20...I can actually OWN one???

Will D* give me a credit for the $1k I dropped on the HR10???


----------



## ToddD

JoeSchueller said:


> Is there more info on the MCE and Windows Vista plans anywere? I'm VERY interested in possible HTPC integration with D* and have found very little info.


Joe: First have a look at the PDF of the Feb webcast that Alan posted a few pages back. Thats's the best public info....

There have been some other public statements that have been made.

At CES 2006 Bill Gates stated that MS and DirecTv would provide Windows Connect support (under the plays for sure program) for the "new HD DVR".

He also stated that you would be able to play back content from your DVR over at a MS WMC computer....I am quite sure this is done with support for DNLA.

As to WMC only products....Intel provided that they were working with DirecTv to support DTV tuners for Viv PC's. I have info that we will see this as a part of the Vista roll out (CES 2007) and that beta testing is under way.

All of this is shown in the PDF......


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wolffpack said:


> Earl,
> 
> Have you tried running any of the free port scanners against the network connection on the unit? Did it indeed grab an IP address from DHCP and are there any ports responding?


After further review... doesn't look like it is grabing an IP address..
Then again... I am having issues with my broadband router, so (started before the HR20).......... I'll let you know.


----------



## bonscott87

jpepping said:


> This is a bummer,:nono: I really like the fact that when FF through commericals and I see the start of the program and hit play the HR10-250 will scoot back a bit.
> 
> The HR20 does not do this???:eek2: This was the only place (and I am keeping up on this long thread) that I saw this.
> 
> thanks
> 
> Jim


And FYI That the autocorrect is a Tivo patent so DirecTV can't offer this feature unless they wanted to license it from Tivo. Same goes for the wishlist feature.


----------



## bobnielsen

theratpatrol said:


> I know that D* is going to a lease only. So howcome Best Buy is still selling receivers? I swear I saw an H20 HD receiver there, or could that have been an older MPEG2 HD receiver that I saw instead?
> 
> Now I'm confussed. Sorry.


You can "buy" it from Best Buy (that's how I got my H20--the DTV CSR said if I got it there I could save the shipping fee). However, once you activate the unit, it is a lease. If I hadn't activated mine I would have owned a nice $99 paperweight, I guess.

I don't really see why some folks are so upset about leasing in this case. From a practical point there isn't really that much difference. You pay the same as the "mirroring" fee plus you don't need to pay extra for a protection plan. True, if you deactivate the receiver you must return it, but they don't really have that much residual value for a non-subscriber (although with Ebay, I'm often surprised at what people will buy).

The DTV models aren't (yet, at least) hackable like the Tivo-based units, so that isn't much of a factor.

I suspect that if one could buy a HR-20, the price would be well north of $1000. No, thanks.


----------



## Jeremy W

bobnielsen said:


> I suspect that if one could buy a HR-20, the price would be well north of $1000.


$749 is actually the price many people have been quoted by DirecTV.


----------



## net17

bpayne said:


> FTM was built and designed specifically with MDU systems in mind. Talk with your property manager about what it would take to set up a centralized MDU system- there is a special projects division within DirecTV that can plan the system, put it together and get it installed.


That was my point, I do have DirecTV in my MDU. There is an "FTM" system that can be used, but it does NOT pass MPEG 4 content. So if the FTM is active on the receiver, than that would be my answer. It is almost a moot point, because while I live in Los Angeles, D* will not lease me a box, as I am an MDU customer.


----------



## mscog

bonscott87 said:


> And FYI That the autocorrect is a Tivo patent so DirecTV can't offer this feature unless they wanted to license it from Tivo. Same goes for the wishlist feature.


I thought the issue with 2 buffers might also be a TIVO patent which might be why D* cannot offer it. This issue worries me.

Earl, 
Can you watch a prerecorded show while Simultaneously recording 2 other shows? I wonder if it can still do this without 2 buffers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

net17 said:


> That was my point, I do have DirecTV in my MDU. There is an "FTM" system that can be used, but it does NOT pass MPEG 4 content. So if the FTM is active on the receiver, than that would be my answer. It is almost a moot point, because while I live in Los Angeles, D* will not lease me a box, as I am an MDU customer.


Part of that puzzle though, your MDU would have to upgrade their MDU processing to pass the MPEG4 to your jack in your unit...

Even when the unit enables FTM


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> 2007 we "should" see a lot of change in the number of HD networks on DirecTV.


I was thinking about this last night, but once DirecTV cuts off the MPEG2 West Coast HD-DNS, I can see DirecTV adding MPEG4 HD-DNS of "The CW" and "MyNetworkTV".

Once DirecTV cuts off the East Coast HD-DNS, I can see DirecTV possibly adding a couple of MPEG4 nationals on the current CONUS birds until DirecTV 10 is up and tested. Now that the HR20 is out, I don't believe there would be any reason for DirecTV to put up any more new MPEG2 HD channels.

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

Alan Gordon said:


> Now that the HR20 is out, I don't believe there would be any reason for DirecTV to put up any more new MPEG2 HD channels.


I really do hope DirecTV sees it this way. We need more national HD channels ASAP.


----------



## ToddD

Jeremy W said:


> I really do hope DirecTV sees it this way. We need more national HD channels ASAP.


A good note for us to all think about on that....I saw a report the other day that somewhere around 60+ cable networks have a HD plan in some stage of development for the next 18 to 24 months. Soon there will be LOTS of HD!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ToddD said:


> A good note for us to all think about on that....I saw a report the other day that somewhere around 60+ cable networks have a HD plan in some stage of development for the next 18 to 24 months. Soon there will be LOTS of HD!


And over that same 18-24 months, DirecTV will increase their ability to carry HD... to 150+ channels...


----------



## ToddD

Earl Bonovich said:


> And over that same 18-24 months, DirecTV will increase their ability to carry HD... to 150+ channels...


you know those two might just be related


----------



## cabanaboy1977

Earl, was looking at the pictures again in the review and one of the screen shots for the settings screen says access car but is a grayed out option. Do you know why that is? (I'm not taking about your access card number but the option for access card on the setting screen). Also you said the active screen stay loaded to make it come up faster later. Does that keep the second tuner tuned to the active channel?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I didn't notice that with the Access Card... I'll have to check on that.

From what I have been told, the Interactive applications don't "exit" out right away... so if you return to them, you don't have to wait for the interactive items to re-initalize

I will have to check to see what happens when I have a recording in the background.


----------



## Jeremy W

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Also you said the active screen stay loaded to make it come up faster later. Does that keep the second tuner tuned to the active channel?


He said that the Active *application* stays loaded, not the screen. The actual "screen" is just a standard video channel, there is no reason to stay tuned to it. The actual interactive code is an application that is run when the receiver tunes to an Active channel. That code is all that needs to stay running in order to improve performance, there is no need to stay tuned to the channel.


----------



## RAD

Earl, did they change the active weather application on the HR20 so it remembers your zip code and cities across reboots?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> Earl, did they change the active weather application on the HR20 so it remembers your zip code and cities across reboots?


I'll have to check the next time I reboot...


----------



## anubys

mscog said:


> I thought the issue with 2 buffers might also be a TIVO patent which might be why D* cannot offer it. This issue worries me.
> 
> Earl,
> Can you watch a prerecorded show while Simultaneously recording 2 other shows? I wonder if it can still do this without 2 buffers.


yes...you can watch a pre-recorded show while recording two other shows...


----------



## anubys

YankeeFan said:


> So you are saying that I don't HAVE to lease an HR20...I can actually OWN one???
> 
> Will D* give me a credit for the $1k I dropped on the HR10???


if you paid $1K for the HR10, then you've had it for a couple of years at least...doesn't that put a dent in your $1K price?


----------



## Mordha

Earl, First thanks for taking so much of your time to answer all of our questions. Also, thanks for the review you made of the HR20. It took me this long to finally get on here for my question for fear that it has already been asked, which it had been, so thanks for the answer  In case you're wondering, I was curious about the noise of the unit. My HR10 is waay too loud for my bedroom.
I do have another question for you, Could you take a look at the remote setup screen and see how many are there for LG and Samsung TV's and let me know how codes for each? Thanks


----------



## newsposter

I dont understand why there is a patent issue. Doesn't the Directv/tivo agreement mean no lawsuits thru 2010? So why not develop the same tivo features and worry 4 years from now ? 

feel free to move to another more appropriate thread.


----------



## sporttime

First time poster, thanks for all the great info. I am in LA County and called Retention to see about swapping out our current HR10-250 for the new HR20-700 but was told that it is only available to new DirecTV customers currently. There is no program yet for current HD DVR customers who want to exchange their receiver for the new one. Can this be true? Has anyone else experienced this? 

Also, Retention gave me the HR10-250 at no charge a few months ago as a long-time customer and told me that when the HR20-700 was released I would be able to swap it out at no or minimal charge. Now the folks at Retention I spoke with said that I "used up" my 1 free receiver option and I have to pay $400 if I want the HR20. I am not being greedy, and I do appreciate the receiver I was given, but I probably would have waited for the HR20 had I known that I only had 1 silver bullet to use toward a free receiver. Any info or advice that anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!


----------



## Chris Blount

Hey folks,

In case you haven't noticed, there is now a link that you use to get on the waiting for the HR20. This is exclusive to DBSTalk members!

*CLICK HERE*


----------



## Wolffpack

newsposter said:


> I dont understand why there is a patent issue. Doesn't the Directv/tivo agreement mean no lawsuits thru 2010? So why not develop the same tivo features and worry 4 years from now ?
> 
> feel free to move to another more appropriate thread.


Agreed. I thought the contract pretty much gave DTV license to Tivo's patents through 2010. By that time these machines won't be here so why not use that technology?

The real reason? DTV has never stated that function A,B or C cannot be implemented due to Tivo's patents. Only speculation by members of various forums, including this one use that as an excuse. I doubt that DTV's reasoning has anything to do with patents. I think it's more that DTV would have to develop the code and logic and they just may not know how.


----------



## Jeremy W

Wolffpack said:


> I think it's more that DTV would have to develop the code and logic and they just may not know how.


Come on, that's a load of crap. Developing code for something simple like auto-correction while fast forwarding is a piece of cake. Suggestions would be the only thing that would be challenging, but everything else is just simple stuff.


----------



## DCSholtis

Chris Blount said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> In case you haven't noticed, there is now a link that you use to get on the waiting for the HR20. This is exclusive to DBSTalk members!
> 
> *CLICK HERE*


Just signed up!! Thanks for providing that!!


----------



## bobnielsen

DCSholtis said:


> Just signed up!! Thanks for providing that!!


After clicking on "submit" I was returned to a Dish Network forum!


----------



## Wolffpack

Jeremy W said:


> Come on, that's a load of crap. Developing code for something simple like auto-correction while fast forwarding is a piece of cake. Suggestions would be the only thing that would be challenging, but everything else is just simple stuff.


I agree. But how would you explain that with the R15, released 9 months ago, they still don't have the logic down to properly record first run only shows? Look at what I said. I'm not saying that logic is that hard to duplicate.


----------



## shamus46

TMullenJr said:


> I have to say good job to DBSTalk! The word is out that this is the site to check out for up to date info. As of right now, there are 579 users (500+ guests) checking out this thread.
> 
> How does it feel to be the most popular person in the country Earl?


how will I hook up a second TV?


----------



## The_Geyser

BillyT2002 said:


> Sure - ignore my red LED question way back on page 6. Will DirecTV create a version of the HR20 with red LEDs to give it a Cyclon look and feel? I'd like red LEDs instead of blue. Also to really giv it that Cyclon look and feel from the original BG, they should offer chrome silver and chrome gold cases as well.
> 
> In general though, I really wish consumer electronics companies would offer more choices for case color and LED color (if they're going to use LEDs).


Red is an angry color, blue is calming.


----------



## macmantis

Earl,

What is the temperature of the unit like? It seems the Dish 622 suffers from heat problems like some of the H20s do. 

Thanks


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The internal reading is around 127f
I can easily lay my hand on top of the unit for any period of time.
It will warm you up a tad... but nothing close to be considered "hot" especially for an A/V device.


----------



## Xram

BillyT2002 said:


> Sure - ignore my red LED question way back on page 6. Will DirecTV create a version of the HR20 with red LEDs to give it a Cyclon look and feel? I'd like red LEDs instead of blue. Also to really giv it that Cyclon look and feel from the original BG, they should offer chrome silver and chrome gold cases as well.
> 
> In general though, I really wish consumer electronics companies would offer more choices for case color and LED color (if they're going to use LEDs).


You mean like mine? :lol:


----------



## Xram

Just did it, Thanks Chris.


----------



## liltunanj

> BTW, I signed up for the waiting list, figuring I probably won't be able to get it until next month anyway... but now I'm having second thoughts. Should I have waited and contacted DirecTV retention to try and get a "good" deal on the HR20, or will I still be able to deal with them?!
> 
> ~Alan


I had the same thought as you did after I signed up for the waiting list. Hope someone sheds some light on this thought.


----------



## Jeremy W

Alan Gordon said:


> BTW, I signed up for the waiting list, figuring I probably won't be able to get it until next month anyway... but now I'm having second thoughts. Should I have waited and contacted DirecTV retention to try and get a "good" deal on the HR20, or will I still be able to deal with them?!


It's not going to make any difference. There's nothing to worry about.


----------



## wmccain

epaul said:


> Have you tried a usb ethernet adapter?


On the HR20, the Ethernet port is for Ethernet, the USB port is for RS232 serial control (in custom installations with automation such as AMX or Crestron).

Nearly all earlier DirecTV receivers (except the DirecTiVo models) had RS232 ports for this purpose. Starting with the newer non-DVR models (the H20 for example) they switched over to using a USB port, which works with a USB-to-serial adapter (any of the ones with the Prolific 2303 chipset, which is all current brands except Keyspan).

(The H10 is unusual, it has an RS232 port disguised as an RJ45 connector, there may have been a Dnn-series model like that also.)

The current serial interface protocol is documented for custom installers in a DirecTV manual that can be downloaded from the SBCA Web site (I forget the exact link, it is not easy to find). There are also a number of hobbyists who reverse-engineered the earlier RS232 protocols (there were two generations of them, known as MPG and APG) and posted the commands and responses (both generations use a similar protocol, in which every command starts with a hex FA). The current protocol is an extension of the "APG" version of the FA protocol, but it runs at a higher data speed on the USB-to-serial adapter.

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California


----------



## joekun

> the USB port is for RS232 serial control


This is GREAT news! Now they just need to start offering software that can control this from a PC and I will be able to build the DVR of my dreams!


----------



## Chris Blount

Alan Gordon said:


> The HR20 manual is now available online. HR20 Manual
> 
> BTW, I signed up for the waiting list, figuring I probably won't be able to get it until next month anyway... but now I'm having second thoughts. Should I have waited and contacted DirecTV retention to try and get a "good" deal on the HR20, or will I still be able to deal with them?!
> 
> ~Alan





liltunanj said:


> I had the same thought as you did after I signed up for the waiting list. Hope someone sheds some light on this thought.


Guys,

The waiting list was brought to DBSTalk as a special arrangement through DirecTV. You are not under any specific obligation to purchase. What you can do is once DirecTV notifies you that your HR20 is available, you can then contact the retention department and try to work out something to your satisfaction.


----------



## jcwest

Earl: 
Great Job, thanks!

One quick question, When you switched to the HR20 what did you have running from the dish to the box "solid copper center coax" or copper clad steel?

Thanks J C


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jcwest said:


> Earl:
> Great Job, thanks!
> 
> One quick question, When you switched to the HR20 what did you have running from the dish to the box "solid copper center coax" or copper clad steel?
> 
> Thanks J C


Yep... all the cable in my house (with a few exceptions that the installers ran first and I can't check)

Is this stuff:
https://www.tselectronic.com/belden/7915a.html

Using the Thomas Snap-Seal connectors as well.


----------



## bonscott87

Thanks for the review Earl.

The 2 biggest feature for me are the native passthru and the fact that all outputs are active at the same time.

Reason is that for SD material, I want my TV to do the stretching, not the receiver.

So my question is this: If I go to an SD channel or view an SD recording it should recognize that as 480i. Does it then switch you to the S-Video output or does it send 480i across the component/HDMI connection? And does the receiver do any stretching at this point or not? 

Guess I'm trying to get a feel for how it handles SD and how you have had it configured for SD for such programs as Stargate and such.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I actually disabled 480i as an output on the unit, as my TV doesn't support 480i via HDMI or component (not sure why). But according to the HR20 manual, it does support 480i via the HDMI/Component.

I also leave it 1080i most of the time (turned off the native resolution).
But when I was testing it, it "fell" back to 480p (since that was enabled) on SD shows.


----------



## J2569

I talked to DTV about a month ago asking if they was ever going to offer a HD DVR that doesn't require the phone line to be connected. I currently have a non HD Tivo unit that requires the phone line to be connected. They told me the new HR 20 will not require the phone connection. Can anyone confirm this that is currently using the new HR20? I have a home phone line just for my Tivo. I never use the phone. Tired of paying $30 a month for phone just to have Tivo. Also, I used to have an Microsoft Ultimate Receiver before I got my Tivo. I still prefer the Ultimate Receiver over the Tivo. Hope the new HR20 is closer to UTV than Tivo. Sounds like it is.....anyone ever had all 3 to compare?


----------



## macmantis

Earl,

I noticed on one forum you said that the channel change takes longer than the H20, but you assumed it was due to starting the buffer. Is there a way to turn off the live buffering? I think my viewing model will be record and watch it later. I do not know how much I would use the feature. I may want to experiment.

Thanks
Doug


----------



## Earl Bonovich

J2569 said:


> I talked to DTV about a month ago asking if they was ever going to offer a HD DVR that doesn't require the phone line to be connected. I currently have a non HD Tivo unit that requires the phone line to be connected. They told me the new HR 20 will not require the phone connection. Can anyone confirm this that is currently using the new HR20? I have a home phone line just for my Tivo. I never use the phone. Tired of paying $30 a month for phone just to have Tivo. Also, I used to have an Microsoft Ultimate Receiver before I got my Tivo. I still prefer the Ultimate Receiver over the Tivo. Hope the new HR20 is closer to UTV than Tivo. Sounds like it is.....anyone ever had all 3 to compare?


"Technicall" per the User Agreement for DirecTV... you will have a phone line connected at all times. Especially if you use Mirroring or the Sports programming.

"Practically"... The HR20 at no ponit needs to make a call to activate service (like the TiVo), nor dial in ever night like the TiVo does.

If you don't connect a phone line:
a) You can't purchase PPV's via remote
b) You may be blocked out of some special sports programming (and others)
c) You may have issues with "mirroring" your plan to other receivers

Other then that... the unit works just fine with out a phone line.
It's sibling (the R15), a lot of people have had it disconnected from a phone line since November with no problems.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

macmantis said:


> Earl,
> 
> I noticed on one forum you said that the channel change takes longer than the H20, but you assumed it was due to starting the buffer. Is there a way to turn off the live buffering? I think my viewing model will be record and watch it later. I do not know how much I would use the feature. I may want to experiment.
> 
> Thanks
> Doug


There is no ability to turn off the live buffer... 
"Channel" surfing isn't very common with a DVR.

I would in your case, recommend heavy usage of the one line guide at the bottom of the screen.... The channel will still take a moment to configure (as you coudl be changing SATs/Transponders for that next channel... plus internally changing form MPEG-4 decompression, to MPEG-2 HD, or MPEG-2-SD... different audio formats, and if you have Native resolution turn on.... a lot of things going on there... it is going to take a moment)


----------



## PoitNarf

Earl,

What is the purpose of the blue led eye in the center of the receiver? Does it do any animations?

Also does anyone know how people that sign up for the HR20 waitlist are going to be notified? I certainly hope it's by email.


----------



## macmantis

Earl,

I do use the one line guide (H20). I hardly use the main guide. I do use native mode because I have a DVDO VP30, which helps with SD. I am generally only surfing when multiple sports events are on. Thanks for the info. 

Doug


----------



## Earl Bonovich

PoitNarf said:


> Earl,
> 
> What is the purpose of the blue led eye in the center of the receiver? Does it do any animations?
> 
> Also does anyone know how people that sign up for the HR20 waitlist are going to be notified? I certainly hope it's by email.


The eye is used to indicate "trick play" motion.
So if you are FFing, the eye rotates clockwise in the speed your are moving.
(The counter clockwise in reverse)

If you PUASE the playback... the eye fades in and out.

Note sure how the notification will work, will try to get some details though.


----------



## Chris Blount

PoitNarf said:


> Also does anyone know how people that sign up for the HR20 waitlist are going to be notified? I certainly hope it's by email.


I think it will be by e-mail but I will find out for sure for you.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

macmantis said:


> Earl,
> 
> I do use the one line guide (H20). I hardly use the main guide. I do use native mode because I have a DVDO VP30, which helps with SD. I am generally only surfing when multiple sports events are on. Thanks for the info.
> 
> Doug


No problem... I mean historicall (Even with the competing SAT company, and Digital cable)... channel changing on these digital based channels have never been "instant" like analog was.


----------



## mknoebel

Chris Blount said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> In case you haven't noticed, there is now a link that you use to get on the waiting for the HR20. This is exclusive to DBSTalk members!


Just signed up! Thanks, Chris!
(got me out of lurk mode!)


----------



## brewer4

I just signed up for DBSTalk too because of the HR20 discussions. Long time AVS (cant stand Ken) and Satguys. Satguys unfortunately is too much Dish Network and not enough D*. I see similar names here. Love it.


----------



## Richard L Bray

I've been reading this thread for several days. I sincerely appreciate Earl's efforts.

Just scanned the owners manual. In several places it refers to recording three broadcasts at one time. Always says 2 D* and 1 OTA. 

I seriously doubt that D* quality will ever equal OTA for HD. With my current HD Tivo, I frequently record 2 HD OTA broadcasts in one time period.

Does anyone know for sure if the HR 20 hardware/software will limit OTA recording to one program in a time slot?


----------



## PoitNarf

mknoebel said:


> Just signed up! Thanks, Chris!
> (got me out of lurk mode!)


Got me out of lurk mode as well


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Richard L Bray said:


> I've been reading this thread for several days. I sincerely appreciate Earl's efforts.
> 
> Just scanned the owners manual. In several places it refers to recording three broadcasts at one time. Always says 2 D* and 1 OTA.
> 
> I seriously doubt that D* quality will ever equal OTA for HD. With my current HD Tivo, I frequently record 2 HD OTA broadcasts in one time period.
> 
> Does anyone know for sure if the HR 20 hardware/software will limit OTA recording to one program in a time slot?


Can you point out some of the places in the manual... I would like to read them. I have been told definitvely... there are TWO OTA tuners...
So when they activate it, there should be no problem recording two OTA's at once.

But we won't know for certain, till they are activated.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I just noticed this about my unit.

If you are comming out of STANDBY, and you have two things recording.
It will take you directly to MyVOD instead of the live channel.

Now granted the PIG (Picture in Guide) is still there... but it is a start...

Earl


----------



## Richard L Bray

Earl Bonovich said:


> Can you point out some of the places in the manual... I would like to read them. I have been told definitvely... there are TWO OTA tuners...
> So when they activate it, there should be no problem recording two OTA's at once.
> 
> But we won't know for certain, till they are activated.


p.6 under Satellite In 1 (FTM) and p.19.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Richard L Bray said:


> p.6 under Satellite In 1 (FTM) and p.19.


Thanks for the reference points...
I guess we are going to have to wait and see how it is implemented..

It doesn't say.. we won't be able to record 2 OTAs... just the max will be 3 (2 sat on 1 OTA)...

I haev been told mulitple times it has dual ATSC... but again.
Until it is turned on... we won't know for certain.


----------



## Xram

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yep... all the cable in my house (with a few exceptions that the installers ran first and I can't check)
> 
> Is this stuff:
> https://www.tselectronic.com/belden/7915a.html
> 
> Using the Thomas Snap-Seal connectors as well.


Hey Earl, quick question. Would there be any benefit to getting the quad shield cable instead? and if so, which one?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Xram said:


> Hey Earl, quick question. Would there be any benefit to getting the quad shield cable instead? and if so, which one?


Quad shield is good for out door runs.... or very LONG runs.
Usually a little over kill for indor usage..

The stuff I use is TRI-Shield, (so in the middle), 
I have really liked the Belden stuff... I have gone through maybe 7,000 ft of the stuff in the last 4+ years


----------



## wje

RAD said:


> Thanks for the review.
> 
> On the SAT1 connection it also says (FTM) next to it, what does that mean???


I just love the electronics industry, acronyms for everything. The closest think I know of that's even conceivably relevant: Fiber Termination Module. Earl, see any fiber connectors anywhere?

Unrelated topic: Earl, has any comparison been done against the VIP-622 features? I gave up on the HR20 a few months ago and went with the 622, which has a nice feature set. Now that the HR20 is (almost) available, it would be nice to have a comparison for those fed up with D* and wanting to move to E*, and those fed up with E* and wanting to move to D* (the grass always being greener, you know).


----------



## P Smith

wje said:


> I just love the electronics industry, acronyms for everything. The closest think I know of that's even conceivably relevant: Fiber Termination Module. Earl, see any fiber connectors anywhere?
> 
> <..>


I just love to see ppl jumping at the end of the thread and asking about same thing what was discuss already.
Just read a few pages back, don't be ashamed !


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> It doesn't say.. we won't be able to record 2 OTAs... just the max will be 3 (2 sat on 1 OTA)...


I love the addition of being able to record three programs at one time (finally, a TRUE upgrade feature), but if only 1 OTA can be recorded at a time, I'll have to wait until I could afford a TiVo Series 3 to run along side it.

BTW Earl, they are also running the DVR Plus Training on channel #578 as well as something called "HD Overview" for those of us who don't receive #1000.

~Alan<~~~~~~~Who's adding channel #246 (USA West) to his guide...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Chris Blount said:


> Guys,
> 
> The waiting list was brought to DBSTalk as a special arrangement through DirecTV. You are not under any specific obligation to purchase. What you can do is once DirecTV notifies you that your HR20 is available, you can then contact the retention department and try to work out something to your satisfaction.


Thanks for the information, Chris! 

~Alan


----------



## Earl Bonovich

wje said:


> I just love the electronics industry, acronyms for everything. The closest think I know of that's even conceivably relevant: Fiber Termination Module. Earl, see any fiber connectors anywhere?
> 
> Unrelated topic: Earl, has any comparison been done against the VIP-622 features? I gave up on the HR20 a few months ago and went with the 622, which has a nice feature set. Now that the HR20 is (almost) available, it would be nice to have a comparison for those fed up with D* and wanting to move to E*, and those fed up with E* and wanting to move to D* (the grass always being greener, you know).


It will probably be a while till a comparison like that comes out.
I personally don't have Dish, and my neighboor has no HD, thus no desire to get the 622


----------



## wje

P Smith said:


> I just love to see ppl jumping at the end of the thread and asking about same thing what was discuss already.
> Just read a few pages back, don't be ashamed !


Gee, so sorry I have a life. I'll make sure to go thru all 19 pages next time. Also, I didn't 'jump at' the end of the thread, I was sitting quite still, moving only my fingers as I typed.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

wje said:


> Gee, so sorry I have a life. I'll make sure to go thru all 19 pages next time. Also, I didn't 'jump at' the end of the thread, I was sitting quite still, moving only my fingers as I typed.


Don't worry about it...
This thread is getting long, and it is hard for anyone to go back to page one and read the some 400 posts.

FTM (From the manual)

FTM (Frequency Translator Module)... FTM is a technology that allows mulitple tuners to work with a single satellite input


----------



## GP245

Earl -

Do you know or think that FTM will be available to allow me, as an individual - not part of a multi-unit complex, to run only one cable to a HR20?

Although I live in an apartment house, I have my own dish on my terrace, and it would be great just to continue to have just the one cable.

Thanks again,

Gary


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Regarding DUAL ATSC Recording...

I got a PM from another user...
Take a look at the picture:
http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/images/Small/15-insidebackright.jpg

This shows the TWO ATSC tuners (see the solder point leading back to the ATSC input)... the sat inputs are to the left in the rectangle silver box.

So there are definently TWO distinct ATSC tuners..

So I would now put it up there that when they are enabled, we will be able to independtly record TWO ATSC streams... at around 99%


----------



## Earl Bonovich

GP245 said:


> Earl -
> 
> Do you know or think that FTM will be available to allow me, as an individual - not part of a multi-unit complex, to run only one cable to a HR20?
> 
> Although I live in an apartment house, I have my own dish on my terrace, and it would be great just to continue to have just the one cable.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Gary


I know they are working on an individual consumer version, howerver I have zero details on timelines and dates...


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl Bonovich said:


> Regarding DUAL ATSC Recording...
> 
> I got a PM from another user...
> Take a look at the picture:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/images/Small/15-insidebackright.jpg
> 
> This shows the TWO ATSC tuners (see the solder point leading back to the ATSC input)... the sat inputs are to the left in the rectangle silver box.
> 
> So there are definently TWO distinct ATSC tuners..
> 
> So I would now put it up there that when they are enabled, we will be able to independtly record TWO ATSC streams... at around 99%


Not to be a negative Nellie, but there are two distinct SAT tuners also, which can record two shows at a time but cannot provide dual live buffers. Just because the hardware exists, doesn't mean the software is utilizing that hardware to it's fuill potential.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wolffpack said:


> Not to be a negative Nellie, but there are two distinct SAT tuners also, which can record two shows at a time but cannot provide dual live buffers. Just because the hardware exists, doesn't mean the software is utilizing that hardware to it's fuill potential.


Hence why I said, until it is turned on........ we won't know for sure.


----------



## PoitNarf

Earl,

If I remember from all the posts so far, you said your HR20 didn't come with a B-Band converter. I just read through the manual and saw on the "Package Contents" page that the box contains 2 B-band converters. Is it really supposed to come with 2 of them?


----------



## Xram

Earl Bonovich said:


> Quad shield is good for out door runs.... or very LONG runs.
> Usually a little over kill for indor usage..
> 
> The stuff I use is TRI-Shield, (so in the middle),
> I have really liked the Belden stuff... I have gone through maybe 7,000 ft of the stuff in the last 4+ years


Thanks Earl, I was thinking of rerouting the lines from my dish (shoddy work from previous owner) to the basement in preporation for the at9 dish and hr20. I may go for the quad shield for that run (70ft) and then the tri shield to the rooms.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

PoitNarf said:


> Earl,
> 
> If I remember from all the posts so far, you said your HR20 didn't come with a B-Band converter. I just read through the manual and saw on the "Package Contents" page that the box contains 2 B-band converters. Is it really supposed to come with 2 of them?


I did say that... and I was wrong..... I should have said... I didn't have any in my box. I talked with my contact earlier today, and they are supposed to come with the two B-Band adapters.... (they will be taking care of my "lack" of them soon)


----------



## Chris Blount

mknoebel said:


> Just signed up! Thanks, Chris!
> (got me out of lurk mode!)





brewer4 said:


> I just signed up for DBSTalk too because of the HR20 discussions. Long time AVS (cant stand Ken) and Satguys. Satguys unfortunately is too much Dish Network and not enough D*. I see similar names here. Love it.





PoitNarf said:


> Got me out of lurk mode as well


Welcome to the forum guys! Thanks for registering and have fun!


----------



## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> I talked with my contact earlier today, and they are supposed to come with the two B-Band adapters.... (they will be taking care of my "lack" of them soon)


If these B-Band adapters are so necessary, why is your system working fine without them?

The manual also says that an RF remote and antenna need to be purchased separately, even though the included remote has RF capability, and there is no connector on the back for an antenna.


----------



## masonbrown

[EDIT - I just realized this was posted earlier, sorry for the dupe]

I was looking around directv.com to see if they had any mention of the HR20 yet. I stumbled across a link to the manual on their site.

I'm a new user here, so I can't post URLs yet, so just start combine:

"directv.com"

and

"/see/pdf/060508HR20UserGuidev1_0b.pdf"

It's in PDF format, turned sideways, and looks like it's not text-searchable - so basically you're supposed to print it out. But it is the new HR20.

-Mason


----------



## Earl Bonovich

masonbrown said:


> [EDIT - I just realized this was posted earlier, sorry for the dupe]
> 
> I was looking around directv.com to see if they had any mention of the HR20 yet. I stumbled across a link to the manual on their site.
> 
> I'm a new user here, so I can't post URLs yet, so just start combine:
> 
> "directv.com"
> 
> and
> 
> "/see/pdf/060508HR20UserGuidev1_0b.pdf"
> 
> It's in PDF format, turned sideways, and looks like it's not text-searchable - so basically you're supposed to print it out. But it is the new HR20.
> 
> -Mason


We have a thread in the base forum with the full link.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> If these B-Band adapters are so necessary, why is your system working fine without them?
> 
> The manual also says that an RF remote and antenna need to be purchased separately, even though the included remote has RF capability, and there is no connector on the back for an antenna.


They won't be "needed" until the two new sats are up in 2007...

The RC24 remote is included with the unit (which is RF).
The antenna is internal to the unit... so no external connector for an antenna.


----------



## newsposter

Earl Bonovich said:


> No problem... I mean historicall (Even with the competing SAT company, and Digital cable)... channel changing on these digital based channels have never been "instant" like analog was.


My B65 was instant  I'm sure you meant DVR.


----------



## Chris Blount

PoitNarf said:


> Also does anyone know how people that sign up for the HR20 waitlist are going to be notified? I certainly hope it's by email.


We have received an answer from DirecTV. You will be notified by E-Mail. We have just added a line to the signup page about this.


----------



## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> The RC24 remote is included with the unit (which is RF).
> The antenna is internal to the unit... so no external connector for an antenna.


I know, I was just mentioning an error in the manual.


----------



## PoitNarf

Chris Blount said:


> We have received an answer from DirecTV. You will be notified by E-Mail. We have just added a line to the signup page about this.


Thanks for the clarification Chris!


----------



## Archalien

Aye, labored through all 20 pages in bout 2 hours...yikes

One question, maybe common knowledge, didn't see much bout it:

Can I transfer HD/SD/MPEG recorded content to my PC for viewing/burning?

I know u said net connect not functional, called D* and supervisor said this could be accomplished via USB port now (Aside from PPV or NFL).

thx


----------



## JoeSchueller

OK, first, mad thanks to Chris for getting this all set up, but count me among the wary regarding the waiting list. I am sincerely hoping D* chooses not to tick me off by making me pay for an HR20 12-18 months after I sprung for an HR10. 

As others have noted, this could be a little risky until the financial details of the swapout are well known. I, for one, am itching to kick my HR10 to the curb and perhaps sell it to some TiVoCommunity Zealot. However, I have 2 essentially non-starters that will keep me from doing it. One, it has got to be free or less than $50 worth of installation to get it done. Two, the slimline dish has got to be out, that big honker just doesn't get it done for me. Luckily Cincinnati is far enough down the DMA list, I won't be missing anything anytime soon.

Anyone else care to weigh in on the subject of swapout economics, or perhaps it warrants its own thread?


----------



## Capmeister

Earl Bonovich said:


> There is no ability to turn off the live buffer...
> "Channel" surfing isn't very common with a DVR.


I do it all the time.


----------



## Samurai

You know this is great, but:

- It requires to many cables. They need to make it so that only 1 cable is needed to all TVs in your house.

- We need HMO. It is really a waste to have a DVR with hard disk by every TV

- Using a phone line is obsolete and should not be required.

I give DirecTV until FIOS gets in my neighborhood, which looks like about 4-5 months, to do this or I'm going to have to leave DirecTV after 10 years and go to FIOS, which has all of these already.


----------



## Alan Gordon

newsposter said:


> My B65 was instant  I'm sure you meant DVR.


The Sony B65. The best non-DVR receiver I've ever had. There was a few problems at first, but a software upgrade made that thing stable.

I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE it if DirecTV took a look at how the guide looked on the B65 (with the channel logos at the side) and ported that over to the new GUI coming in 2007.

~Alan


----------



## gregftlaud

i saw the screen shot of the mini guide but was there a screen shot and video of the full guide and how it works? cant seem to find it if it is there


----------



## adam1115

One ATSC tuner? Ugh, total deal breaker.

BTW, Earl, you're big time now..

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/19/1533250&from=rss


----------



## Jeremy W

adam1115 said:


> One ATSC tuner? Ugh, total deal breaker.


Nope, it's got two.


----------



## wmccain

joekun said:


> This is GREAT news! Now they just need to start offering software that can control this from a PC and I will be able to build the DVR of my dreams!


It gets even better. At the CES in January, DirecTV announced a rackmount version of the HR20, called the "DirecTV Pro", oriented toward the custom installation market:

_ DIRECTV Pro is for the true technophile and home theater enthusiast. It combines the latest HD and DVR technologies, and differs from all other DTV products as it is designed to mount in a 19-inch rack, which is common in the home theater, custom installation market. Additionally, the Pro Home Theater has new features such as a front panel, HD LCD display, front panel transport controls, and additional control ports on the front and back. DIRECTV plans to launch the DIRECTV Pro at the end of 2006._

However, if you want PC-based control software, you will probably have to write it yourself (or maybe _I_ will, I am in that business). Traditionally, specialized "automation controllers" such as AMX and Crestron are used for this purpose, and the custom installers hire people like me to write custom AMX or Crestron software for each particular "custom home" (typically, the clients are very wealthy people who can afford this).

But, for the HR20 (Plus or Pro) it would be possible to write "off the shelf" software that runs on a PC to do this job. And, as I mentioned, I currently sell a line of software products of that nature (for Sony CD changers and for XM satellite tuners, at present). I am making no promises at this time - I use an AMX controller to run my own home theater and "whole house" system, so I will probably start by modifying my own custom AMX software to support the HR20. But it is certainly possible that sometime next year I might offer a PC-based packaged software product for the HR20.

Bill


----------



## HD-1080p

Hey Earl your doing a great job on the HR20 review. I have one question that I could not find an answer for in the thread. Do you or anyone else know if the new HR20 has sound efects like the old HR10 which is TIVO based? The sounds that I am talking about is like when you would push the thumbs up or down or make and error which would make a bong noise. Any help will be great and keep up the good work.

Joe.


----------



## wmccain

Archalien said:


> Can I transfer HD/SD/MPEG recorded content to my PC for viewing/burning? I know u said net connect not functional, called D* and supervisor said this could be accomplished via USB port now (Aside from PPV or NFL).


From the DirecTV CES Press Release (January 2006):

_The DIRECTV 2Go service will allow DIRECTV customers to transfer programming content from their DIRECTV Plus DVR to a wide variety of portable media players. Supporting DIRECTV specific audio and video formats, the service will enable customers to connect a DIRECTV compatible portable media player directly to DIRECTV receivers. DIRECTV 2Go devices will also display DIRECTV content in a separate menu area with a DIRECTV-branded user interface. These new media players further demonstrate DIRECTV's commitment to providing consumers with the content they want, how they want it, and where they want it. DIRECTV plans to launch the DIRECTV 2Go service in 2006._

*Note:* The "DIRECTV Plus DVR" is actually their name for the R15. The HR20 is called the "DIRECTV Plus HD DVR" - so it is not entirely clear whether or not the "2Go" service will be offered for HD content. Also, note that they said that you will be able to transfer content to a "DIRECTV compatible portable media player" (most likely, via the front-panel USB port). There is no mention of being able to transfer content (directly) to a PC.

Bill


----------



## BrettStah

Great thread, Earl!

I actually read through this monster, but apologies if I missed these questions somehow:

1) I currently have 3 DirecTivos (one is an HD model), all located in the same entertainment center (I send the outputs to both the main HDTV in the same entertainment center, and to a channel modulator that distributes the signals throughout my house). Can 2 or more HR-20s be located in the same location, and be set to discrete codes so that they can be controlled separately from each other?

2) Can you, if you haven't already done so, pass on how important it is for some customers that the "remember the pause location" thing is fixed? I can live with having to set up two football games to record, because I often do that anyway (to help avoid accidental channel changes, etc.) But I really like being able to switch back and forth between the tuners and have it still be paused where I left it.

The wishlist thing kind of sucks, but it isn't a dealbreaker for us. And some of the features are definitely cool-sounding!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

BrettStah said:


> Great thread, Earl!
> 
> I actually read through this monster, but apologies if I missed these questions somehow:
> 
> 1) I currently have 3 DirecTivos (one is an HD model), all located in the same entertainment center (I send the outputs to both the main HDTV in the same entertainment center, and to a channel modulator that distributes the signals throughout my house). Can 2 or more HR-20s be located in the same location, and be set to discrete codes so that they can be controlled separately from each other?
> 
> 2) Can you, if you haven't already done so, pass on how important it is for some customers that the "remember the pause location" thing is fixed? I can live with having to set up two football games to record, because I often do that anyway (to help avoid accidental channel changes, etc.) But I really like being able to switch back and forth between the tuners and have it still be paused where I left it.
> 
> The wishlist thing kind of sucks, but it isn't a dealbreaker for us. And some of the features are definitely cool-sounding!


For #1... In IR remote mode, you can operate two units. In RF modes you can pretty much run as many as you want, as the RF code is made up partly of the RID for the unit.

For #2: They are aware of the PAUSE issue... and they have seen the thread regarding dual buffers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Archalien said:


> Aye, labored through all 20 pages in bout 2 hours...yikes
> 
> One question, maybe common knowledge, didn't see much bout it:
> 
> Can I transfer HD/SD/MPEG recorded content to my PC for viewing/burning?
> 
> I know u said net connect not functional, called D* and supervisor said this could be accomplished via USB port now (Aside from PPV or NFL).
> 
> thx


No, there is no ability to transfer the content to your PC


----------



## Earl Bonovich

adam1115 said:


> One ATSC tuner? Ugh, total deal breaker.
> 
> BTW, Earl, you're big time now..
> 
> http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/19/1533250&from=rss


TWO ATSC tuners... in the pictures you can see both of them.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

HD-1080p said:


> Hey Earl your doing a great job on the HR20 review. I have one question that I could not find an answer for in the thread. Do you or anyone else know if the new HR20 has sound efects like the old HR10 which is TIVO based? The sounds that I am talking about is like when you would push the thumbs up or down or make and error which would make a bong noise. Any help will be great and keep up the good work.
> 
> Joe.


There are no sound effects in the HR20..
There is a menu option, but it is greyed out... so maybe in the future.


----------



## neuronbob

Thanks for the review, Earl. Despite the lack of ability for two buffers, I plan to upgrade as the SLOW HR10-250, with poor OTA reception is frankly annoying. I can't believe they got away with charging almost $1k for that when it was released. I understand the TiVo partisans' ardor for this device, but I'm not married to TiVo and will adjust quickly to the new unit. I'm sure most people will.

Can't wait till it's availale in Cleveland.


----------



## Gotchaa

I just had the HR20 installed. After activating it, I was told the OTA would be enabled in October. Ditto on the sound effects, they are grayed out.

Impressions thus far:
-As a Tivo fan, I am going to have to get use to the new menu system, I don't like it at all, but I love how fast the menu is.

-Native Mode: Depending on how you are connecting the HR20, your speed may vary. For me I am sending HDMI through a Pioneer Elite 74TXvi and out to a Mitsubishi RPTV using and HDMI to DVI cable. In native mode, syncing from 480 to 1080 with channel changes is just unacceptable. I believe this is a function of my setup, AVR/Display. So I've basically just set it to 1080i.

The scaling of 480 material to 1080i is marginally better at best than HR10-250, I think those that are really concerned about upscaling are better suited with external video processor.

Personally, I don't like the LED it's bright, I'd like to disable it or dim it, but haven't found a way to do this yet.

HD quality, 1080i looks great, appears to be better than the HR10-250 in my limited viewing thus far.


----------



## pappys

Gotchaa said:


> HD quality, 1080i looks great, appears to be better than the HR10-250 in my limited viewing thus far.


First, congrats on the new box, most of us are drooling.
2nd, Yes there is a way to dim the lights and turn them off. I remember seeing it when I glanced through the manual online. I don't know which page, though. However, it may not be functional yet.

Edit: It is on page 5 of the online manual. -

"9) LIGHT RING - 12 blue lights indicate the current state of the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR. Press and hold the LEFT and RIGHT arrows to dim and turn off the lights. (Repeat to brighten.)"


----------



## wmccain

wmccain said:


> The current serial interface protocol is documented for custom installers in a DirecTV manual that can be downloaded from the SBCA Web site (I forget the exact link, it is not easy to find).


Found that link, here it is:

*SBCA Education - Tech Updates*

The above SBCA page has links to two relevant DirecTV documents. The SBCA page claims that the main document covers the R15, but in fact it does not. It covers the D10-100, D10-200, D10-300, D11, and H10 _only_.

This is particularly unfortunate, since the FA protocol must be (and undoubtedly has been) extended to cover models with two tuners. The existing protocol has no provision for specifying which tuner is to be referenced (for channel changing and status) or which tuner is to be displayed. For that matter, it would be desirable (but not absolutely essential) to extend the protocol to support the recording and playback functions (the existing protocol addresses live viewing only).

It is my expectation that appropriate documentation will be released along with the "DirecTV Pro" model - since, after all, that model is designed for custom installations and its "additional control ports" would be rather useless without documentation.

But that does not mean that the documentation will be easy to pry loose from DirecTV. Many vendors, DirecTV among them, have traditionally made even "custom installation professionals" such as myself "jump through hoops" to get their hands on the relevant protocol documents. (Fortunately, I am a "registered consultant" with certain vendors, and that helps. But I have yet to discover if DirecTV has a "custom installation" outreach program of any kind. Due to the high volume of their business, they have made it very difficult to contact "the real DirecTV" - as opposed to contractor-operated "call centers".)



wmccain said:


> (The H10 is unusual, it has an RS232 port disguised as an RJ45 connector, there may have been a Dnn-series model like that also.)


Actually, I "shot from the hip" in the above quotation. The "transitional models", such as the H10, had an RS232 port disguised as an RJ22 (4-pin) connector (not an 8-pin RJ45 connector). The RJ22 is, for all practical purposes, the same as the familiar RJ11 telephone jack.

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California


----------



## Gotchaa

pappys said:


> First, congrats on the new box, most of us are drooling.
> 2nd, Yes there is a way to dim the lights and turn them off. I remember seeing it when I glanced through the manual online. I don't know which page, though. However, it may not be functional yet.
> 
> Edit: It is on page 5 of the online manual. -
> 
> "9) LIGHT RING - 12 blue lights indicate the current state of the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR. Press and hold the LEFT and RIGHT arrows to dim and turn off the lights. (Repeat to brighten.)"


That is great, I guess I should take some time to read the manual! Much better now.

I hate the remote, wondering if they use similar IR codes as another D* unit, and if anyones posted a Pronto config yet..

Also has anyone confirmed if the sata port is enabled or not? I want to head down to Fry's and pick one up and see what happens.

I plan on hooking it up into the network soon and seeing if I can capture any packets from the ethernet port.

As soon as the guide fills up, I want to record HD until the drive fills up.

One thing I can say I don't like is how the Series link works, Tivo's interface is just way better IMHO, but I suppose I will settle soon enough.


----------



## gregftlaud

well, i tried going thru all 21 pages here to see if this has already been posted but didnt notice anything.

i just went to directv.com and the hr20 hd dvr is listed under their hd equipment sections with a user guide and manual. they also have an "order now" link.

a couple of questions though after looking through the manual:

1. about the ota input. in the manual it says you can WATCH ota channels and they will be input into the guide but it doesnt say anything about also recording. will u be able to record ota hd with the hr20?

2. in the manual i think next to the sat 2 input description it says something about being able to record 3 programs at the same time????

greg


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Gotchaa said:


> That is great, I guess I should take some time to read the manual! Much better now.
> 
> I hate the remote, wondering if they use similar IR codes as another D* unit, and if anyones posted a Pronto config yet..
> 
> Also has anyone confirmed if the sata port is enabled or not? I want to head down to Fry's and pick one up and see what happens.
> 
> I plan on hooking it up into the network soon and seeing if I can capture any packets from the ethernet port.
> 
> As soon as the guide fills up, I want to record HD until the drive fills up.
> 
> One thing I can say I don't like is how the Series link works, Tivo's interface is just way better IMHO, but I suppose I will settle soon enough.


The RC23/RC24 remote has been in use for a while now by DirecTV for a while now... this is teh same remote for the D10/D11/R15/H20... so all the popular third party remotes have the code for DirecTV recieivers.

The eSATA port is disabled right now...

Curious what don't you like about the Series Link? It has all the exact same options as TiVo (with the exception that TiVo allows a limit of 10)..


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gregftlaud said:


> well, i tried going thru all 21 pages here to see if this has already been posted but didnt notice anything.
> 
> i just went to directv.com and the hr20 hd dvr is listed under their hd equipment sections with a user guide and manual. they also have an "order now" link.
> 
> a couple of questions though after looking through the manual:
> 
> 1. about the ota input. in the manual it says you can WATCH ota channels and they will be input into the guide but it doesnt say anything about also recording. will u be able to record ota hd with the hr20?
> 
> 2. in the manual i think next to the sat 2 input description it says something about being able to record 3 programs at the same time????
> 
> greg


1) You will be able to record OTA
2) Yah... seen that too... not to clear on if that is going to be a reality or not... we will have to see when they enable the OTA


----------



## Gotchaa

Earl Bonovich said:


> Curious what don't you like about the Series Link? It has all the exact same options as TiVo (with the exception that TiVo allows a limit of 10)..


I think it's the GUI that I have to get use to, I like that with Tivo I was able to quickly search by time, channel, or title..I prefer the way it's presented. Still waiting for all the 
programming data to DL...these are just my initial impressions as I become familiar with the GUI...


----------



## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> There are no sound effects in the HR20..
> There is a menu option, but it is greyed out... so maybe in the future.


If they added sound effects and moving backgrounds, I would be in love with this DVR. I'm not kidding either. It sounds cheesy, but honestly I just love stuff like that.


----------



## gp4rts

I have read this thread, and I know you have stated that HDMI, Component and composite outputs are active simultaneously. Just for clarification, I take that to mean that I can have 1080i or 720p on HDMI and Component, and at the same time get 480i on the composite. Is this correct?


----------



## Jeremy W

gp4rts said:


> I take that to mean that I can have 1080i or 720p on HDMI and Component, and at the same time get 480i on the composite. Is this correct?


That is correct.


----------



## RAD

Gotchaa said:


> I just had the HR20 installed. After activating it, I was told the OTA would be enabled in October.


Earl, can you please double check with your source on this date? You said you were told by the end of August and he's being told October.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> Earl, can you please double check with your source on this date? You said you were told by the end of August and he's being told October.


Can you point me to where I said August? (as I would like to correct it).... as that is not the time frame I was told...... What he was told is closer to the time frame I was told....


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> Can you point me to where I said August? (as I would like to correct it).... as that is not the time frame I was told...... What he was told is closer to the time frame I was told....


Sorry, I thought you said August in http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=61862 post #15. What you said was _"that they WILL be enabled, in a relatively short time frame... I was told a "month", _". If you use normal D* time then October means October 32nd, 1 1/2 months longer then your "month" timeframe. If it's really October that's not good news.


----------



## PoitNarf

Earl,

The H20-600 (not sure if this is true of all H20s) has an annoying "feature" in which it will only output a mono sound signal over the optical output if there are no RCA plugs hooked up to the L+R stereo jacks. This only happens when the H20 is receiving a stereo signal, Dolby Digital doesn't have the same problem. The RCA cables don't need to be plugged in at the other end, just need to be plugged in on the H20.

Does the HR20 suffer from this "feature" as well? I wouldn't mind so much if it did, but it'd be nice if they learned from this mistake with the H20.


----------



## BillyBob_jcv

PoitNarf said:


> The RCA cables don't need to be plugged in at the other end, just need to be plugged in on the H20.


I'm confused. A typical RCA jack is a simple 2-wire +/- connection. If the other end of the cable is not plugged-in, it is still an open circuit. How does the H20 know something is plugged-in?


----------



## 66stang351

BillyBob_jcv said:


> I'm confused. A typical RCA jack is a simple 2-wire +/- connection. If the other end of the cable is not plugged-in, it is still an open circuit. How does the H20 know something is plugged-in?


I believe that there is a physical switch located in the H20 that is pushed by the RCA plugs being inserted. The switch activates the output. Unfortunately, it also switches the stereo to the optical output on and off. This is only on the H20-600, the H20-100 doesn't have the same issue


----------



## ToddinVA

PoitNarf said:


> Earl,
> 
> The H20-600 (not sure if this is true of all H20s) has an annoying "feature" in which it will only output a mono sound signal over the optical output if there are no RCA plugs hooked up to the L+R stereo jacks. This only happens when the H20 is receiving a stereo signal, Dolby Digital doesn't have the same problem. The RCA cables don't need to be plugged in at the other end, just need to be plugged in on the H20.
> 
> Does the HR20 suffer from this "feature" as well? I wouldn't mind so much if it did, but it'd be nice if they learned from this mistake with the H20.


That sounds like a rather bizarre "feature"...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Regarding the audio...

No, the Dolby Digital, and Stereo audio (non-DD shows) have worked as expected.

but then again I have had RCA plugs hooked up (going to my 2nd amp)
I'll have to test it later.


----------



## adam1115

Jeremy W said:


> Nope, it's got two.


How do we know it can record two ATSC shows at once until (if) they turn it on?


----------



## joekun

> If they added sound effects and moving backgrounds, I would be in love with this DVR.


So long as they make it optional, if it started making noises every time I pushed a button on the remote I would throw it out the window!!



> No, the Dolby Digital, and Stereo audio (non-DD shows) have worked as expected.


Earl, you did have trouble with DD channels that had multiple audio options, no? I was only able to get DD to work for a few minutes before my DD channels went silent again and I switched DD back to "off" in the audio menu of the HR20.

Also you mentioned that the default record option can be chaned from "both" to "First run only", but I have yet to find a menu where I can change the default record settings and I don't see it in the manual either. Any help in finding this would be much appreciated!! The manual actually says that "first run only" is the default, but for me it is always "both" until I go in and tell it otherwise.


----------



## Jeremy W

adam1115 said:


> How do we know it can record two ATSC shows at once until (if) they turn it on?


We don't, it's really just an educated guess at this point. There's really no other reason to include two ATSC tuners.


----------



## Jeremy W

joekun said:


> So long as they make it optional, if it started making noises every time I pushed a button on the remote I would throw it out the window!!


Well considering the fact that there is a menu option, I think it's a pretty safe bet that you'll be able to disable the sounds like you can on the Tivo.


----------



## DaveC56

Earl,

First of all, thanks for all your hard work, contribution to this forum and excellent review of the new HR20-700. I have a couple of questions. With the AT9 5LNB DirecTV Satellite Dish, what multi-switch are you using (Zinwell WB68)? Is there another multi-switch that is approved and will work the AT-9 that provides more than 8 outputs?

Like many other forum member, I plan to use both my HR10-250 and new HR20-700 in tandem since I have a somewhat large investment in the HR10.

I am very interested in comparison of OTA local channels and the MPEG4 locals provided by DirecTV, once the ATSC tuners are activated.

Keep up the great work!!!

Dave

HR10, DSR704, DSR700 and an old RCA Receiver


----------



## Earl Bonovich

joekun said:


> Earl, you did have trouble with DD channels that had multiple audio options, no? I was only able to get DD to work for a few minutes before my DD channels went silent again and I switched DD back to "off" in the audio menu of the HR20.


Yes, on occasion I have lost the DD... it usually comes back after a channel change... I've been told we should see a resolution for that issue soon.



joekun said:


> Also you mentioned that the default record option can be chaned from "both" to "First run only", but I have yet to find a menu where I can change the default record settings and I don't see it in the manual either. Any help in finding this would be much appreciated!! The manual actually says that "first run only" is the default, but for me it is always "both" until I go in and tell it otherwise.


Go into the RECORD menu for any program (bring up the info for a program, then go to the RECORD menu option (from the left)).
When in the record menu... click on MENU

There will be an option for DEFAUT Options


----------



## Earl Bonovich

DaveC56 said:


> Earl,
> 
> First of all, thanks for all your hard work, contribution to this forum and excellent review of the new HR20-700. I have a couple of questions. With the AT9 5LNB DirecTV Satellite Dish, what multi-switch are you using (Zinwell WB68)? Is there another multi-switch that is approved and will work the AT-9 that provides more than 8 outputs?
> 
> Like many other forum member, I plan to use both my HR10-250 and new HR20-700 in tandem since I have a somewhat large investment in the HR10.
> 
> I am very interested in comparison of OTA local channels and the MPEG4 locals provided by DirecTV, once the ATSC tuners are activated.
> 
> Keep up the great work!!!
> 
> Dave
> 
> HR10, DSR704, DSR700 and an old RCA Receiver


WB68 is the only approved switch right now...

Spaun is about to release a 12 and 16 port version.


----------



## Gotchaa

Well I spent last night reprogramming all my Season passes into series link, and playing with the GUI more. 

Here are my impressions:

-Menu system is extremely fast, I don't have much recorded, so no telling what it will do with a full boat, but it seems as reorganizing prioritizes is a background task, so no waiting for 5-10 minutes when doing a reorg.

-Searching for programs takes getting use to. Searches based on Keyword, Title, Channel, Person they are all there, everything is done through the Guide menu. The only thing that I haven't been able to find is by ratings or content, and the various advance search submenus Tivo has. I suppose this is no different for those that have the R15

-Series Link? Well thus far it does not seem to be reading the "First Run Only" tags on programming that has "Repeat" listed (Tonight Show, shown at 11:30 and 3AM are tagged for recording even though first run only is selected), and for at least one program, "Rockstar:Supernova" it will not pick up both programs on Tuesday and Wednesday. I am not sure what is going on here, setting the priority to first, and even "Both" doesn't seem to correct this problem. The Tivo ignored the repeat flag on programming so nothing new here, but I never had a problem where it didn't record a season pass if a program was at a non-standard time as long as the guide data was correct (e.g. Rockstar is at a later time on Tuesday than usual, perhaps that's throwing the series link off??)

-Compared to OTA on H20 (HD Receiver), the Mpeg 4 channels look almost as good, most people will not be able to tell a difference (depending on display size, calbiration, etc), but OTA in Los Angeles at least, still looks better than the MPEG4 channels.

-1080i material on the Mpeg2 channels, HBO-HD, Showtime-HD look better than the HR10-250. It is not a huge difference, but noticeable. Again depending on your display setup, you mileage may vary.

-Strange issues with fast forwarding. (May be releated to my Tivo thumb) On a few occasions after fast forwarding or rewinding and then hitting the play button, no audio would come out, only fix was to hit instand rewind. It's random and has not happend today. Generally speaking the fast foward and skip functions are comparable to the Tivo, and can easily be fixed to do what you want with Macros and a Pronto like remote. Did I mention I hate the remote? Again macros are the way to go to get to menus, I am going to work on panels for a ProntoNG based on my current Tivo one.

-The advanced functionality is nice for the news/sports mix channels. Being able to change the audio and navigate those channels is fun. I can't wait for NFL ticket to start. There is also a "What's Hot" feature, which shows viewer trends for regions and even movies, sports, news, and kids. Interesting to check out for stat fans, not sure I really care in general. It's likely these stats only include D*+ box owners anyhow, but who knows.

-The lack of a dual buffer really blows, this has been noted by just about everyone thus far, add me to the list. OTA, dual buffers, eSata port, network streaming, should all be priority 1 (like October!). I would like to be able to find some service codes to view bit rates, resolution, remaining space in MBs, etc.


-Generally speaking the hardware is solid, fast and sleak, runs at about 127 degrees (hotter than HR10-250 to touch). Drive is slightly louder than the HR10-250, but then again I have upgraded drives running in quiet mode in there. The GUI will take some getting use to for Tivo users. I have to say as a Tivo tweaker, I am overall content with this first offering from D*. If the HR10-250 speed issues were fixed by 6.3, it would be a different story, maybe D* is delaying the upgrade to see how many folks jump on board with their new HD DVR...


----------



## Fl_Gulfer

Is there a link to see what the on screen TV Guide looks like?


----------



## Gotchaa

Earl Bonovich said:


> The RC23/RC24 remote has been in use for a while now by DirecTV for a while now... this is teh same remote for the D10/D11/R15/H20... so all the popular third party remotes have the code for DirecTV recieivers.


Do you know if D* has discrete codes for custom installers listed somewhere? I'd like to avoid learning them all if possible.


----------



## AMGPilot

Fl_Gulfer said:


> Is there a link to see what the on screen TV Guide looks like?


Earl,

Is there a way you could capture a video of how quick the main guide works? I saw the one that you posted of the mini guide and it works really fast.

I also wanted to thank Earl Bonovich for the great review and taking the time to post all of the results for all of to see here.

Thanks Bro :righton:


----------



## wmccain

Gotchaa said:


> Do you know if D* has discrete codes for custom installers listed somewhere? I'd like to avoid learning them all if possible.


There is a complete list of key codes, including several discrete codes, in the document "DIRECTV Set-top box information for the installer". See Section 6, "Remote Control", on page 29.

I posted a link to this document earlier, but here it is again:

*SBCA Education - Tech Updates*

Bill


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Fl_Gulfer said:


> Is there a link to see what the on screen TV Guide looks like?


If you already have DirecTV... try checking out channel 1000..
It is the R15 they are showing, but the GUI is identical on the HR20


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Gotchaa said:


> Do you know if D* has discrete codes for custom installers listed somewhere? I'd like to avoid learning them all if possible.


I am not sure.... www.remotecentral.com would be a good place to check.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

VettePilot said:


> Earl,
> 
> Is there a way you could capture a video of how quick the main guide works? I saw the one that you posted of the mini guide and it works really fast.
> 
> I also wanted to thank Earl Bonovich for the great review and taking the time to post all of the results for all of to see here.
> 
> Thanks Bro :righton:


Sure... I will try to do it this week.
Probably Tuesday night when the family is out.


----------



## AMGPilot

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sure... I will try to do it this week.
> Probably Tuesday night when the family is out.


Thanks


----------



## Que

Gotchaa said:


> Well I spent last night reprogramming all my Season passes into series link, and playing with the GUI more.
> 
> Here are my impressions:
> 
> -Compared to OTA on H20 (HD Receiver), the Mpeg 4 channels look almost as good, most people will not be able to tell a difference (depending on display size, calbiration, etc), but OTA in Los Angeles at least, still looks better than the MPEG4 channels.
> 
> -1080i material on the Mpeg2 channels, HBO-HD, Showtime-HD look better than the HR10-250. It is not a huge difference, but noticeable. Again depending on your display setup, you mileage may vary.
> 
> -The lack of a dual buffer really blows, this has been noted by just about everyone thus far, add me to the list. OTA, dual buffers, eSata port, network streaming, should all be priority 1 (like October!). I would like to be able to find some service codes to view bit rates, resolution, remaining space in MBs, etc.


Yes I would also like to know the bit rates and resolution. If anyone know please post it. Thanks!


----------



## wmccain

Gotchaa said:


> I would like to be able to find some service codes to view bit rates, resolution, remaining space in MBs, etc.


Front panel button combos for accessing the service menus are in the document to which I previously posted a link (twice). The document pertains to the D10, D11, and H10 (and the H20 is similar to the D11, so the document may be good for that model as well). Not sure if the same combos will work for the R15 or HR20, since I don't have one to test them on (yet), but chances are reasonable that they would work.

(Back in the days when DirecTV receivers were branded by other manufacturers, e.g. Sony, the service menu button combos changed with every model. But since the main service menu combo "Active/Right" is common to all three DirecTV-branded models listed above, there is at least a fair chance that they are now standardizing on a consistent service menu interface. It would sure make installers' lives easier!)

I just now noticed that the R15 is listed in the accompanying "Problems and Peculiarities" document (see the link I posted to SBCA Education). Unfortunately, it says that (as of last October, 2005) the USB data port on the R15 "Does not support any data port commands." This is listed as a problem, with a status of "To be fixed."

Bill


----------



## P Smith

Earl Bonovich said:


> -) I don't know if there is a second BCM7411.... but if I open it up again... I will look around.
> 
> -) I do have plans to try and put in a bigger SATA drive... just don't know when I am going to be able to obtain one.... might wait a little while to see if the 750s go down in price with the announcements of the 1TBs


Hitachi should fist on HDD market with 1TB disk : http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3796


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Earl Bonovich said:


> If you already have DirecTV... try checking out channel 1000..
> It is the R15 they are showing, but the GUI is identical on the HR20


Channel 1000 shows "channel not available" for me. Must be because I have an older receiver.


----------



## Wolffpack

wmccain said:


> Front panel button combos for accessing the service menus are in the document to which I previously posted a link (twice). The document pertains to the D10, D11, and H10 (and the H20 is similar to the D11, so the document may be good for that model as well). Not sure if the same combos will work for the R15 or HR20, since I don't have one to test them on (yet), but chances are reasonable that they would work.
> 
> (Back in the days when DirecTV receivers were branded by other manufacturers, e.g. Sony, the service menu button combos changed with every model. But since the main service menu combo "Active/Right" is common to all three DirecTV-branded models listed above, there is at least a fair chance that they are now standardizing on a consistent service menu interface. It would sure make installers' lives easier!)
> 
> I just now noticed that the R15 is listed in the accompanying "Problems and Peculiarities" document (see the link I posted to SBCA Education). Unfortunately, it says that (as of last October, 2005) the USB data port on the R15 "Does not support any data port commands." This is listed as a problem, with a status of "To be fixed."
> 
> Bill


I've successfully received an ACK and NACK from the R15's USB port but no other command response. Plug in a USB serial cable you get an ACK (0xF0). Try a valid command you get nothing. Try just text you get a 0xFC or 0xF8. I'd guess the STB commands are not working.

Are you aware of any document that details the 02468 software download or DOWN ARROW/REC front panel hard drive reformat command? There must be something that details those commands.

Also, do you have any idea what NORMAL and SPECIAL means in "SERVICES" menu under System Diags?


----------



## Alan Gordon

theratpatrol said:


> Channel 1000 shows "channel not available" for me. Must be because I have an older receiver.


Try channel #578.

~Alan


----------



## Gotchaa

Well, looks like I had my first crash. 1 Program recording, and I was in the "MyVOD" menu, selecting another program to watch, and all of the sudden:

"Your access card has expired" Press for more info. Recommendation was to replace the access card, or try the reset button on the front panel. A reboot fixed it. 

Recording of the program continued upon reboot...guess that's good.


----------



## wmccain

Wolffpack said:


> I've successfully received an ACK and NACK from the R15's USB port but no other command response. Plug in a USB serial cable you get an ACK (0xF0). Try a valid command you get nothing. Try just text you get a 0xFC or 0xF8. I'd guess the STB commands are not working.


Well, at least the fact that you get any responses at all indicates that the USB-to-serial adapter is recognized and "supported" on the USB port. And the fact that the response codes that you _have_ received are, in fact, codes from the standard "hex FA protocol" indicates that they have at least "stubbed in" support for some version of the familiar "hex FA protocol" (presumably, to be suitably enhanced for a two-tuner DVR).

*Am I correct in assuming that you are interfacing at 115200 bps, as that is the documented speed for models with USB ports (the D11, and probably the H20)?*

I _did_ note that the interface on the R15 was listed as "Does not support any data port commands", with a status of "To be fixed." One might have hoped it had been fixed by now - but my "best guess" now is that it won't happen until they release the "DirecTV Pro" model, since that model is specifically claimed to support a control interface. (Hopefully that support will be released for the R15 and HR20 as well, but you never know.)



Wolffpack said:


> Are you aware of any document that details the 02468 software download or DOWN ARROW/REC front panel hard drive reformat command? There must be something that details those commands.


No, I have not seen anything on those subjects.



Wolffpack said:


> Also, do you have any idea what NORMAL and SPECIAL means in "SERVICES" menu under System Diags?


Alas, I have no idea.

*Since you got into the service menu, I presume that the Active/Right combo works for that model (R15) as well as for the earlier ones?*

Bill


----------



## Gotchaa

wmccain said:


> There is a complete list of key codes, including several discrete codes, in the document "DIRECTV Set-top box information for the installer". See Section 6, "Remote Control", on page 29.
> 
> I posted a link to this document earlier, but here it is again:
> 
> *SBCA Education - Tech Updates*
> 
> Bill


Thanks Bill, I was looking more for discrete codes to get to menu's and change formats, like going directly to 1080 screen modes. Do you know if that is documented anywhere?


----------



## wmccain

Gotchaa said:


> Thanks Bill, I was looking more for discrete codes to get to menu's and change formats, like going directly to 1080 screen modes. Do you know if that is documented anywhere?


Not for the new "DirecTV-branded" models. The last non-DVR HD models before the "branding change" _did_ have discrete codes for the formats (720p, 1080i, etc.). I am referring to the LG 3200A and the Sony HD300 (there was also a Hughes-branded version of the same box, which was manufactured by LG for all three brands, but my recollection is that the Hughes version did not support the discrete format codes). Unfortunately, the LG and Sony versions each had their own IR codes, using their own IR coding schemes (i.e., IR codes similar to other products in their own brand). So it's unlikely that they could be made to work with the new DirecTV-branded boxes.

You can always try looking at the IR codes in the document that I posted, and programming a Pronto to test out the "unused codes" (the "gaps" between the documented codes). But I am not hopeful. The posted document has an "air of authority" that leads me to believe that its list of IR codes is complete, that is, they have listed every code to which the STB will respond.

Bill


----------



## wmccain

As an addendum to my previous post, it is interesting to note that the remote for the DirecTV-branded receivers has three power buttons - a conventional "toggling" power button and a pair of discrete buttons. As you surely know, many brands have discrete power codes, but they usually do not put them on the "consumer remote". Of course, discrete power codes are by far the most requested discrete codes by custom installers and "technophiles" everywhere, as it's pretty tough to do decent automation without them.

(Power current sensors often fail, especially for STBs that draw the same current in standby state as in "on" state. Video sync sensors can even fail, if the box emits a "black screen with sync" when in the standby mode. In one extreme case, I opened a C-band satellite receiver and tapped the "power-on LED" on the front panel, thus providing a 5 volt signal that an AMX controller could recognize. That was necessary because the receiver had to be in standby mode at 2am every morning or else it would not move the dish to the correct satellite for its daily program guide download. Generally, a small-dish (DBS) receiver can just be left "on" continuously, it's harmless to do so.)

As a guy who designs and programs custom installations, I "gnash my teeth" constantly over IR codes that "toggle" or "step". If I had my way, basic functions such as "input selection" or "mode" or "format" would _always_ be provided by sets of discrete buttons! Fortunately, most high-end gear nowadays (such as preamp/surround processors, LCD and plasma sets, and front projectors) come with RS232 serial ports that can control everything discretely. And some of the latest gear (such as Sony's projectors) even have both RS232 serial _and_ RJ45 Ethernet interfaces that can be used for control automation.

Bill


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Dumb question - can the remote operate the volume control/power on-off for my Home Theater receiver in addtion to the TV?


----------



## Jeremy W

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Dumb question - can the remote operate the volume control/power on-off for my Home Theater receiver in addtion to the TV?


As long as the proper code is available (and it most likely is) then the answer is yes.


----------



## jpepping

bonscott87 said:


> And FYI That the autocorrect is a Tivo patent so DirecTV can't offer this feature unless they wanted to license it from Tivo. Same goes for the wishlist feature.


Thanks, now I see why it was not icluded. Unfortunate as that was a cool feature :grin:

Jim


----------



## Jeremy W

jpepping said:


> Thanks, now I see why it was not icluded. Unfortunate as that was a cool feature :grin:


Actually, bonscott97 is partially incorrect. The auto-correction is a Tivo patent, but DirecTV and Tivo recently signed an agreement that allows DirecTV to use Tivo's patented stuff without being sued.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> Actually, bonscott97 is partially incorrect. The auto-correction is a Tivo patent, but DirecTV and Tivo recently signed an agreement that allows DirecTV to use Tivo's patented stuff without being sued.


Nah... not 100% true there either.
I don't have access to the actual contract or anything like that.

My understanding of the extension was basically this:
If DirecTV "infringed" on any of TiVo's patents... TiVo won't go after them.....

But I don't think it gives they free access to any of TiVo's patents just to go ahead and start using them...

I think it boils down to... DirecTV still has to attempt to NOT violate TiVo's patents, but since they have intimate knowledge of how it works, ect..... it is very likely that "their" solution, may just have some similarity to TiVo's...

Think about it as a programmer... you see a solution to a programming problem on the net.... how difficult is it to come up with a 100% DIFFERENT solution to the same problem, when you already have a working solution in your head.....


----------



## JohnDG

Jeremy W said:


> Actually, bonscott97 is partially incorrect. The auto-correction is a Tivo patent, but DirecTV and Tivo recently signed an agreement that allows DirecTV to use Tivo's patented stuff without being sued.


Possibly the agreement allowed DTV to use a list of specific patented features (such as recording two programs concurrently), versus a blank check to use all features. I would bet on the former given the patents listed in the Echostar court ruling.

jdg


----------



## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> My understanding of the extension was basically this:
> If DirecTV "infringed" on any of TiVo's patents... TiVo won't go after them.....
> 
> But I don't think it gives they free access to any of TiVo's patents just to go ahead and start using them...


On second thought, I think you're right.


----------



## Wolffpack

wmccain said:


> *Am I correct in assuming that you are interfacing at 115200 bps, as that is the documented speed for models with USB ports (the D11, and probably the H20)?*


Yes, that is correct. 115200, 8N1.



wmccain said:


> *Since you got into the service menu, I presume that the Active/Right combo works for that model (R15) as well as for the earlier ones?*


Also correct. I haven't seen any differences between NORMAL and SPECIAL so far.


----------



## dvrblogger

P Smith said:


> Thanks for your review Earl; I have some thought about the STB:
> - is there second BCM7411 ? If not, it will never provide second buffer
> - do you have any plans to put into bigger SATA disk ? 500 GB or 750 GB.
> - I'll bet whole price of the HR20, main engine is Broadcom and it's BCM7038


The lack of a second 7411 only affects PIP. The box could still buffer two signals from tuners and swicth back and forth if it was told to by the software.


----------



## neotide

Chris Blount said:


> Welcome to the forum guys! Thanks for registering and have fun!


Nice to see this forum was created right down the road.

Thanks for all the hard work on here guys!


----------



## cabanaboy1977

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) You will be able to record OTA
> 2) Yah... seen that too... not to clear on if that is going to be a reality or not... we will have to see when they enable the OTA


That would definatly give the HR20 an advantage over the HR10 if it could record 2 programs via sat and 1 or 2 more via OTA. Any word from your contact if that was a missprint in the manual?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cabanaboy1977 said:


> That would definatly give the HR20 an advantage over the HR10 if it could record 2 programs via sat and 1 or 2 more via OTA. Any word from your contact if that was a missprint in the manual?


No... at least not about the possibility of 3 recordings.
I really think it is just going to be the 2.


----------



## Gotchaa

dvrblogger said:


> The lack of a second 7411 only affects PIP. The box could still buffer two signals from tuners and swicth back and forth if it was told to by the software.


I was told that the dual buffer feature was being tested for the R15, and it would likely soon follow for the HR20, so here's hoping.

He also mentioned one other Tivo feature that they were not allowed to include, the tuner switching, up arrow, down arrow that let's you quickly switch from one tuner to the other.

It was an interesting conversation, he also shed some light on why the Direct Tivo's never got the Home media option enable, apparently marketing wanted a feature advantage for the stand alone Tivo's. That shouldn't be the case with the HR20s though, no word on when, but it is definetly coming.

On a side note, one thing I noticed, and I don't recall if the HR10-250 does this, but after pressing the reset button on the front panel, ALL the Guide Data was purged! My To Do list was completly empty. So keep in mind if you have programs scheduled to record the same day, after a reset you may need to check the To Do list, and setup a manual record.


----------



## Gotchaa

wmccain said:


> As an addendum to my previous post, it is interesting to note that the remote for the DirecTV-branded receivers has three power buttons - a conventional "toggling" power button and a pair of discrete buttons. As you surely know, many brands have discrete power codes, but they usually do not put them on the "consumer remote". Of course, discrete power codes are by far the most requested discrete codes by custom installers and "technophiles" everywhere, as it's pretty tough to do decent automation without them.
> 
> (Power current sensors often fail, especially for STBs that draw the same current in standby state as in "on" state. Video sync sensors can even fail, if the box emits a "black screen with sync" when in the standby mode. In one extreme case, I opened a C-band satellite receiver and tapped the "power-on LED" on the front panel, thus providing a 5 volt signal that an AMX controller could recognize. That was necessary because the receiver had to be in standby mode at 2am every morning or else it would not move the dish to the correct satellite for its daily program guide download. Generally, a small-dish (DBS) receiver can just be left "on" continuously, it's harmless to do so.)
> 
> As a guy who designs and programs custom installations, I "gnash my teeth" constantly over IR codes that "toggle" or "step". If I had my way, basic functions such as "input selection" or "mode" or "format" would _always_ be provided by sets of discrete buttons! Fortunately, most high-end gear nowadays (such as preamp/surround processors, LCD and plasma sets, and front projectors) come with RS232 serial ports that can control everything discretely. And some of the latest gear (such as Sony's projectors) even have both RS232 serial _and_ RJ45 Ethernet interfaces that can be used for control automation.
> 
> Bill


I did notice the power off button, that was a nice suprise. Do you think emailing [email protected] to ask for more discrete codes will work?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Gotchaa said:


> I was told that the dual buffer feature was being tested for the R15, and it would likely soon follow for the HR20, so here's hoping.
> 
> He also mentioned one other Tivo feature that they were not allowed to include, the tuner switching, up arrow, down arrow that let's you quickly switch from one tuner to the other.
> 
> It was an interesting conversation, he also shed some light on why the Direct Tivo's never got the Home media option enable, apparently marketing wanted a feature advantage for the stand alone Tivo's. That shouldn't be the case with the HR20s though, no word on when, but it is definetly coming.
> 
> On a side note, one thing I noticed, and I don't recall if the HR10-250 does this, but after pressing the reset button on the front panel, ALL the Guide Data was purged! My To Do list was completly empty. So keep in mind if you have programs scheduled to record the same day, after a reset you may need to check the To Do list, and setup a manual record.


I am not sure whom you have been talking too... but...
This would be a first that I heard of Dual Buffers being tested/worked on the R15... As far as I know it is not.

With out dual buffers, there wouldn't be really a need for the "toggle" between the tuners, as it would be the same thing as changing the channel..

Again... Home Media Option (Multi-Room Viewing I presumme)... I know it is in "talks" for some of the current generation DVRs (R15/HR20), but nothing is on the horizon.

As for the "guide" data being gone... yes, on a reboot the guide data leaves.

But upon reboot, it refills the next 5-6 hours nearlly immediately, and then progressive rebuilds the rest.... so unless you have something scheduled to record at the same time you are resetting, you shouldn't miss ANY of your recording do the guide data being rebuilt.


----------



## Gotchaa

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not sure whom you have been talking too... but...
> This would be a first that I heard of Dual Buffers being tested/worked on the R15... As far as I know it is not.
> 
> With out dual buffers, there wouldn't be really a need for the "toggle" between the tuners, as it would be the same thing as changing the channel..
> 
> Again... Home Media Option (Multi-Room Viewing I presumme)... I know it is in "talks" for some of the current generation DVRs (R15/HR20), but nothing is on the horizon.


Are you suggesting the Dual buffer is not going to happen because it's a Tivo patent?


----------



## seneca

Im no patend lawyer but I really hope that is not what Earl meant in his post. Great review BTW earl!


----------



## Jeremy W

Gotchaa said:


> he also shed some light on why the Direct Tivo's never got the Home media option enable, apparently marketing wanted a feature advantage for the stand alone Tivo's.


If true, it would be absolutely hilarious. Everyone over at TCF bashed DirecTV for limiting their beloved Tivos. But if it's Tivo themselves who were holding the feature back, then all of those bashers owe DirecTV an apology. :lol:


----------



## newsposter

Earl Bonovich said:


> No... at least not about the possibility of 3 recordings.
> I really think it is just going to be the 2.


3 would impress me to no end. The manual does not state 'future use' as it does for all the other ports etc. And i'm sure they have a proofreader go over this 1000x.

So it must be true and it would impress the hell out of this Tivo fan!


----------



## Jeremy W

newsposter said:


> And i'm sure they have a proofreader go over this 1000x.


They should, but I really hope that they don't. There are way too many errors in that manual.


----------



## gp4rts

newsposter said:


> 3 would impress me to no end. The manual does not state 'future use' as it does for all the other ports etc. And i'm sure they have a proofreader go over this 1000x.
> 
> So it must be true and it would impress the hell out of this Tivo fan!


This was posted on the AVS forum:



> From the Directv HR20 Manual:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> You can record up to *three* programs at once (*two satellite and one from an off-air antenna*).
> To enjoy select HD programming available on off-air local channels, you will also need an off-air antenna
> OFF-AIR IN - Connect an ATSC antenna to the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR using this jack.


(Bold face my emphasis.)

Does this mean you cannot record two OTA programs at the same time? That's what it implies. Also, the "3" is unlikely to be a misprint because the qualifying statement in parentheses clearly refers to three recordings at once.


----------



## sporttime

I live within Los Angeles County and called Retention to see about swapping out our current HR10 for the HR20 but was told that it is only available to new DirecTV customers currently. There is no program yet for current HD DVR customers who want to exchange their receiver for the new one. Can this be true? Has anyone else experienced this? 

Also, Retention gave me the HR10 at no charge a few months ago as a long-time customer and told me that when the HR20 was released I would be able to swap it out at no or minimal charge. Now the folks at Retention I spoke with said that I "used up" my 1 free receiver option and I have to pay $400 if I want the HR20. I am not being greedy, and I do appreciate the receiver I was given, but I probably would have waited for the HR20 had I known that I only had 1 silver bullet to use toward a free receiver. Any info or advice that anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you,
Drew


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Gotchaa said:


> Are you suggesting the Dual buffer is not going to happen because it's a Tivo patent?


No... I am not suggestion that (the later piece). Dual buffers has nothing to do with a TiVo patten... (nor would having a toggle button to rotate between two tuners).

DirecTV simply has opted to NOT have dual live buffers...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gp4rts said:


> This was posted on the AVS forum:
> 
> (Bold face my emphasis.)
> 
> Does this mean you cannot record two OTA programs at the same time? That's what it implies. Also, the "3" is unlikely to be a misprint because the qualifying statement in parentheses clearly refers to three recordings at once.


The quote from AVS, is what we are referring to here... that is the quote from the manual.

Right now... I just don't know if that is going to be a reality or not.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

sporttime said:


> I live within Los Angeles County and called Retention to see about swapping out our current HR10 for the HR20 but was told that it is only available to new DirecTV customers currently. There is no program yet for current HD DVR customers who want to exchange their receiver for the new one. Can this be true? Has anyone else experienced this?
> 
> Also, Retention gave me the HR10 at no charge a few months ago as a long-time customer and told me that when the HR20 was released I would be able to swap it out at no or minimal charge. Now the folks at Retention I spoke with said that I "used up" my 1 free receiver option and I have to pay $400 if I want the HR20. I am not being greedy, and I do appreciate the receiver I was given, but I probably would have waited for the HR20 had I known that I only had 1 silver bullet to use toward a free receiver. Any info or advice that anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank you,
> Drew


Call back... there are dozens of existing customers n the LA area, already reporting they have installations scheduled and some completed.

Some that have swapped out, some that have to pay.


----------



## JoeSchueller

Can anyone decode the logic in making people pay? I don't get this. MPEG-4 is critical to their strategy, and HD DVR customers probably tend to be valuable ones. I can't imagine them telling me that I need to pay again after I floated big cash on an HR10. This just doesn't make sense (other than that if I let them screw me once, I might do it again). The upgrade helps them and moves out one of the most troublesome CE devices I've ever owned (the HR10). Why make it painful & expensive?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> Right now... I just don't know if that is going to be a reality or not.


Referring to the recording three things at one time. This feature, if true, is something that really excites me (the only thing that really excites me about the HR20... though the better ATSC tuner kind of does)... however, could it be possible that this is connected to the FTM technology somehow?!

~Alan


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> Referring to the recording three things at one time. This feature, if true, is something that really excites me (the only thing that really excites me about the HR20... though the better ATSC tuner kind of does)... however, could it be possible that this is connected to the FTM technology somehow?!
> 
> ~Alan


Nah... two different things...

The FTM technology is just to finally resolve the "I only have one cable" problem that has plagued the DVR area for DirecTV for the last 6 years...

Countless threads over the last 6 years, complaining or ripping on the fact they need a 2nd, let alone 3rd wire back there...

The three things at once would be a double back flip for a lot of users out there.... Time will tell.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nah... two different things...
> 
> The FTM technology is just to finally resolve the "I only have one cable" problem that has plagued the DVR area for DirecTV for the last 6 years...


OK, I'm not really an expert at that stuff, but I was thinking about how the unit uses the one cable to record two programs, and thought that might somehow translate into how this would/could be possible.

Note that it says two from satellite, and one from antenna, and NOT three from the satellite.

As I said, I'm not an expert by any means...

~Alan


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> OK, I'm not really an expert at that stuff, but I was thinking about how the unit uses the one cable to record two programs, and thought that might somehow translate into how this would/could be possible.
> 
> Note that it says two from satellite, and one from antenna, and NOT three from the satellite.
> 
> As I said, I'm not an expert by any means...
> 
> ~Alan


Not a problem... (I am not an expert either... I just play one on TV..  )


----------



## Wolffpack

JoeSchueller said:


> Can anyone decode the logic in making people pay? I don't get this. MPEG-4 is critical to their strategy, and HD DVR customers probably tend to be valuable ones. I can't imagine them telling me that I need to pay again after I floated big cash on an HR10. This just doesn't make sense (other than that if I let them screw me once, I might do it again). The upgrade helps them and moves out one of the most troublesome CE devices I've ever owned (the HR10). Why make it painful & expensive?


I don't think even DTV can decode that. Have you called and asked? You might get a free trade upgrade and the next guy not. Don't get a bad taste in your mouth until they've put it there. When you can get a HR20, give them a call and see what happens.


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl Bonovich said:


> DirecTV simply has opted to NOT have dual live buffers...


Kinda funny isn't it? DTV is by far the leader in sports packages (especially with the exclusive NFLST) so DTV understands the value of it's customers that want the best sports coverage possible.

Anytime you see some newb ask if they should go with DTV or Dish or cable you hear some commonalities. Most HD selection = Dish. Best HD picture = cable. Best sports packages = DTV.

Yet here on this forum many of DTVs most prized sports customers have said over and over that they want/need dual live buffers to watch the sports pages they are buying from DTV in the method they have grown accustom to using.

On one hand DTV comes up with the NFLST Mix channels. Yet on the other hand DTV doesn't see a need for dual live buffers on their "next generation" DVRs. I guess it's a true "right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing" story and the DVR hand doesn't know DTV's customers.


----------



## wmccain

Gotchaa said:


> I did notice the power off button, that was a nice surprise. Do you think emailing [email protected] to ask for more discrete codes will work?


Highly unlikely. If there are any discrete functions provided for custom installations, they will probably be provided in the serial control interface (on the Pro model, and hopefully on the R15 and HR20 as well). Not as IR codes. (Sure, I know there are probably more folks out there using Pronto macros for "home automation" than will ever use a serial interface, but companies like AMX and Crestron have a lot more clout than the "Pronto community".)

But thanks for the email address, that's one I did not know about. Where did you get it?

Bill


----------



## Gotchaa

wmccain said:


> Highly unlikely. If there are any discrete functions provided for custom installations, they will probably be provided in the serial control interface (on the Pro model, and hopefully on the R15 and HR20 as well). Not as IR codes. (Sure, I know there are probably more folks out there using Pronto macros for "home automation" than will ever use a serial interface, but companies like AMX and Crestron have a lot more clout than the "Pronto community".)
> 
> But thanks for the email address, that;s one I did not know about. Where did you get it?
> 
> Bill


In the PDF link you posted twice


----------



## YankeeFan

Earl, any indication as to WHEN the FTM capability will be enabled on this box and what additional equipment other than a multiswitch will be needed to us it? I currently diplex my OTA signal because I did not want to run an additional wire through the walls, but I understand the new MPEG4 multiswitch does not/cannot do diplexing. If the FTM allows me to only need one wire for the satellite signal, then I can use the other wire that's already there to run my OTA signal in. Any ideas?


----------



## wmccain

Gotchaa said:


> In the PDF link you posted twice


Gee, I _really_ must get a pair of reading glasses ...

Bill


----------



## Earl Bonovich

YankeeFan said:


> Earl, any indication as to WHEN the FTM capability will be enabled on this box and what additional equipment other than a multiswitch will be needed to us it? I currently diplex my OTA signal because I did not want to run an additional wire through the walls, but I understand the new MPEG4 multiswitch does not/cannot do diplexing. If the FTM allows me to only need one wire for the satellite signal, then I can use the other wire that's already there to run my OTA signal in. Any ideas?


I don't have a timeline on it's availability


----------



## JBernardK

A quote from the manual was posted that says you can record 3 programs at once. Here is another quote from page 46 of the manual:

"Your DIRECTV Plus HD DVR can record up to two programs at once, or it can record one program while you
watch another. If you exceed these limits (for example, if you try to record three programs at 8 p.m. on Thursday),
you will be notified there is a conflict. You will have to decide which program you want to cancel.
If the overlap is just a couple of minutes (for example, some networks occasionally start programs at 8:59 instead
of 9:00 p.m.), try scheduling the recording manually (go to the Scheduler and select Manual) and change the start
and end times appropriately."


----------



## Earl Bonovich

As of right this moment, it is two...
We will see if that changes when the OTA is turned on.

I personal feel that it won't change, but we won't know till it is enabled.


----------



## gregftlaud

so then the hr20... even though it has two sat inputs...it actually only needs 1 sat line ran into it and can split it into two? if that is the case then why even have two sat inputs. sorry for my stupidity on this issue. not sure i quite understand it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gregftlaud said:


> so then the hr20... even though it has two sat inputs...it actually only needs 1 sat line ran into it and can split it into two? if that is the case then why even have two sat inputs. sorry for my stupidity on this issue. not sure i quite understand it.


As of today... you need two sat inputs, because of how the technology works.

DirecTV is working on some new technology (FTM) for the individual household level, that will require only 1 wire to be run.... but it is not here yet.


----------



## Gotchaa

I am having a hard time getting use to advancing in a recorded program with the HR20, I can't seem to do more than 3x, which is the same as the HR10, but there does not seem to be any advanced jump feature. Is there any advance feature similar to the HR10 that lets you advance 15 or 30 minutes at a time? I must be missing something basic, this is really annoying.


----------



## 04z71wbh

First time poster, so forgive me if I'm posting to the wrong area.

I have been waiting forever for the hr20. However, after reading all of the posts, I've decided to keep with the HR10-250 now.

I already had one hr10 and with all of your help, I now own/lease a second HR10 that I got for no charge from DTV today. BTW - I was already a ST subscriber and I made the call to the Retention number I've seen posted on this site, so I don't know if that help with their decision. I've been happy with the hr10 and I really like the TIVO interface, so I'm sticking with it as long as possible.

I get OTA fine in my area and frankly, I don't really need to change to get the latest, greatest HR20.

I appreciate all of the discussion and I really enjoy dbstalk. This site helped me get a free HR10.


----------



## BrettStah

Earl, if you have a SL set up, can you just cancel a single episode of that show? Is there an equivalent to the To Do List?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Gotchaa said:


> I am having a hard time getting use to advancing in a recorded program with the HR20, I can't seem to do more than 3x, which is the same as the HR10, but there does not seem to be any advanced jump feature. Is there any advance feature similar to the HR10 that lets you advance 15 or 30 minutes at a time? I must be missing something basic, this is really annoying.


Yes... see the thread... Skip to Tick in the house....

Hold down the >> for 3 seconds (or << for 3 seconds)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

BrettStah said:


> Earl, if you have a SL set up, can you just cancel a single episode of that show? Is there an equivalent to the To Do List?


Yes... while in MyVod, hit the Yellow button....

Then you can go into the single episode screen... and cancel the single episode.


----------



## LarryInAz

Just want to clarify - if I'm watching a pre-recorded program and go back to LIVE TV, is the 90 minute buffer intact?


----------



## newsposter

goodness, 3 things but 'not' 2 OTA would be quite a setback. Hope the manual is wrong. If my HR10 can do that, i'm sure this new unit will be able to.


----------



## anubys

newsposter said:


> goodness, 3 things but 'not' 2 OTA would be quite a setback. Hope the manual is wrong. If my HR10 can do that, i'm sure this new unit will be able to.


not really...since this is an mpeg4 unit, you will get the 4 major networks via SAT as well as OTA...so if you need to record something off of NBC and CBS, you can get one OTA and the other from SAT...

and if it means that we can still record a THIRD show off of SAT, well, that would make me VERY happy  (I don't think we will ever get to record three things at once, but I can dream!)...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

LarryInAz said:


> Just want to clarify - if I'm watching a pre-recorded program and go back to LIVE TV, is the 90 minute buffer intact?


Yes... however, the unit doesn't remember your pause point..


----------



## skaeight

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes... however, the unit doesn't remember your pause point..


I appoligize in advance if you've already answered this, but is this new, or does the R15 also not remember a pause point?

Hopefully they can implement this soon.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

skaeight said:


> I appoligize in advance if you've already answered this, but is this new, or does the R15 also not remember a pause point?
> 
> Hopefully they can implement this soon.


In the Live Buffer.... the R15 works the same way, it doesn't remember the pause point.

DirecTV has seen the threads, and they are researching the change.


----------



## skaeight

Earl Bonovich said:


> In the Live Buffer.... the R15 works the same way, it doesn't remember the pause point.
> 
> DirecTV has seen the threads, and they are researching the change.


Oh ok, so you're saying it just doesn't remember the pausepoint in the live buffer. However, it will remember if you are watching a recording and go to live tv, or another recording?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

skaeight said:


> ... However, it will remember if you are watching a recording and go to live tv, or another recording?


That should be fixed in the first software update...


----------



## Kentstater

Earl 
I saw the quote bellow on a features list.
I am assuming that all it means is that you can watch the same thing at the same time on another TV, not control separate shows.

Am I correct?

"Outputs all HD and SD outputs at the same time, 
so you can slave the signal to another analog
TV or record onto a VCR or recordable DVD."

P.S. Thanks for your time and effort.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Kentstater said:


> Earl
> I saw the quote bellow on a features list.
> I am assuming that all it means is that you can watch the same thing at the same time on another TV, not control separate shows.
> 
> Am I correct?
> 
> "Outputs all HD and SD outputs at the same time,
> so you can slave the signal to another analog
> TV or record onto a VCR or recordable DVD."
> 
> P.S. Thanks for your time and effort.


Correct...
All the outputs on the unit are active at all times... thus you can have 5 displays (but there are only 3 audio outputs), showing the same content at the same time.

Not a problem...


----------



## aburdick1

Earl,

Following up on my post from last week, I was wondering if you have had a chance to compare HD content sent from the HR20 to your TV via HDMI vs. component video, and if you noticed a difference...

Andy


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I did give it a try... and to my eye... I couldn't see any differences...

I just wish my TV toggled between the two outputs a little quicker...


----------



## Wolffpack

anubys said:


> not really...since this is an mpeg4 unit, you will get the 4 major networks via SAT as well as OTA...so if you need to record something off of NBC and CBS, you can get one OTA and the other from SAT...
> 
> and if it means that we can still record a THIRD show off of SAT, well, that would make me VERY happy  (I don't think we will ever get to record three things at once, but I can dream!)...


HD Locals over SAT <> HD Locals OTA. If anyone can receive locals OTA they will prefer watching a less compressed OTA signal compared to a MPEG4 SAT signal. I agree that not being able to record two OTA shows at once would be a major step backwards.


----------



## LarryInAz

Earl Bonovich said:


> Correct...
> All the outputs on the unit are active at all times... thus you can have 5 displays (but there are only 3 audio outputs), showing the same content at the same time.
> 
> Not a problem...


Just to clarify - will the composite signal send a working signal out at the same time as watching 1080i or 720p via component and/or HDMI? Or do I need to change the resolution to 480i?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

LarryInAz said:


> Just to clarify - will the composite signal send a working signal out at the same time as watching 1080i or 720p via component and/or HDMI? Or do I need to change the resolution to 480i?


Sure does...
I captured all the stills and video for the review, while the unit was at 1080i...
With the Mini-DV camcorder connected to the composite


----------



## Phil T

Earl, Great information!!

Does anybody know if Slingbox supports the HR 20 yet?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Phil T said:


> Earl, Great information!!
> 
> Does anybody know if Slingbox supports the HR 20 yet?


The slingbox does support the R15.

The GUI and the IR Remote controls are the same, so it should work with the HR20... I dobut though that the Slingbox would take the HD signal, but should work fine with the S-Video


----------



## Alan Gordon

Last night I was using my HR10-250, and I thought of a feature that I like, and found myself curious as to whether or not the HR20 has it.

On the DirecTiVo's, you can hit info while looking at program information in your "Now Playing List", or "To Do List", and receive additional information regarding that program including cast, original air dates and more. On the regular stand-alone TiVo, this feature includes even more information such as season number/episode number, as well as a more detailed "Guest Stars" listing.

Does the HR20 have something like this, and if so, what does it include?!

~Alan


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> Last night I was using my HR10-250, and I thought of a feature that I like, and found myself curious as to whether or not the HR20 has it.
> 
> On the DirecTiVo's, you can hit info while looking at program information in your "Now Playing List", or "To Do List", and receive additional information regarding that program including cast, original air dates and more. On the regular stand-alone TiVo, this feature includes even more information such as season number/episode number, as well as a more detailed "Guest Stars" listing.
> 
> Does the HR20 have something like this, and if so, what does it include?!
> 
> ~Alan


No, right now the HR20 (and the R15)... don't have the same "depth" of information about the show.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, right now the HR20 (and the R15)... don't have the same "depth" of information about the show.


When you say "depth", does it at least include original air date... or ANY of the information I mentioned?

~Alan


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> When you say "depth", does it at least include original air date... or ANY of the information I mentioned?
> 
> ~Alan


Nope... it has pretty much the same summary you would see in TV Guide.


----------



## anubys

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nope... it has pretty much the same summary you would see in TV Guide.


this is very strange since this is nothing but showing information that is included in the guide (which D* controls)...so it makes no sense why they don't show it...I guess it's as simple as neeing to add the ability in the software to show it...


----------



## Wolffpack

Alan Gordon said:


> When you say "depth", does it at least include original air date... or ANY of the information I mentioned?
> 
> ~Alan


I've been comparing show info lately between the R15 and DTivos. There doesn't seem to be any original air date on the R15. In addition, from what I've seen the R15 only stores the first three actors of any particular show.

For example for "Men in Black II" DTivos list 6 actors (Tommy Lee Jones, Will Smith, Rip Torn, Lara Flynn Boyle, Rosario Dawson and Tony Shalhoub). The R15 only lists Jones Smith and Torn. I would guess the HR20 operates the same.

*EDIT: The R15 also doesn't list directors or writers in it's INFO screen.*


----------



## walters

And it gets even more abbreviated after it's been recorded and is no longer in the guide. At least that's how the R15 works. Earl: is the HR20 the same?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

walters said:


> And it gets even more abbreviated after it's been recorded and is no longer in the guide. At least that's how the R15 works. Earl: is the HR20 the same?


I haven't really compared it directly... (pre-record / post-record)


----------



## LarryInAz

Is it possible to assign different remote controls similar to TiVo or even earlier Hughes D* set top boxes? I could care less about dual buffers if I instead had 2 HR20 boxes connected to the same set. This would allow me to also have PIP as well which is something a dual buffer HR10 does not allow.

FWIW, this would be a great use of the composite output since alot of PIP capable sets won't show HD signals on both sides. :grin:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

LarryInAz said:


> Is it possible to assign different remote controls similar to TiVo or even earlier Hughes D* set top boxes? I could care less about dual buffers if I instead had 2 HR20 boxes connected to the same set. This would allow me to also have PIP as well which is something a dual buffer HR10 does not allow.
> 
> FWIW, this would be a great use of the composite output since alot of PIP capable sets won't show HD signals on both sides. :grin:


Yes, the HR20 is assignable 1 of 2 codes in IR modes.
In RF mode, each HR20 has a fairly unique (uses a part of the RID), code... so for all practical usages you could have as many as you want (given though that a remote can only control 1 RF at a time)


----------



## Alan Gordon

Wolffpack said:


> I've been comparing show info lately between the R15 and DTivos. There doesn't seem to be any original air date on the R15. In addition, from what I've seen the R15 only stores the first three actors of any particular show.


I keep trying not to badmouth the HR20, because there are some features that I like about it (especially if the recording three things turns out to be true), BUT I'm very disappointed in the lack of Wishlists and Program Information. While I've come to terms with the lack of wishlists (at least I have them in other rooms), I didn't even think to ask about extra information until last night.

Oh well, I guess I will add this to the software upgrade thread...

BTW, a little off-topic, but whenever DirecTV upgrades a Phase III dish to the AT9, do they charge extra for the pole, or is it free?!

~Alan


----------



## LarryInAz

Thanks again for the info Earl.
Maybe you can clarify something else for me also. I've seen discussed earlier the single coax feature (I don't remember the 3 letters). Is this just a theory? If not any ETA on its availability? Will the HR20 be compatible? It would be nice to have 2 HR20 [or similar PVR] connected to each tv. [Just thinking out loud]


----------



## Wolffpack

Alan Gordon said:


> I keep trying not to badmouth the HR20, because there are some features that I like about it (especially if the recording three things turns out to be true), BUT I'm very disappointed in the lack of Wishlists and Program Information. While I've come to terms with the lack of wishlists (at least I have them in other rooms), I didn't even think to ask about extra information until last night.


I don't see any reason to bad mouth either the HR20 or R15. They are different DVRs than Tivos. I just believe everyone should be aware of the differences. The Tivos have their plus/minus points and the HR20/R15 has their plus/minus points.

I also wouldn't go so far as saying the HR20 and R15 do not have a Wishlist feature. The Autorecord is about as close as you can get. It's major problem is not having the same guide data to search (missing info) and some of the search logic that eventually should be cleaned up.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

LarryInAz said:


> Thanks again for the info Earl.
> Maybe you can clarify something else for me also. I've seen discussed earlier the single coax feature (I don't remember the 3 letters). Is this just a theory? If not any ETA on its availability? Will the HR20 be compatible? It would be nice to have 2 HR20 [or similar PVR] connected to each tv. [Just thinking out loud]


FTM is the technology.... it is more then a theory....
There is no eta on it yet.


----------



## Clint Lamor

Earl Bonovich said:


> The slingbox does support the R15.
> 
> The GUI and the IR Remote controls are the same, so it should work with the HR20... I dobut though that the Slingbox would take the HD signal, but should work fine with the S-Video


You can send me your HR20 and I will test it with my SlingBox so we can add it to the review. 

:lol:


----------



## LarryInAz

Earl Bonovich said:


> FTM is the technology.... it is more then a theory....
> There is no eta on it yet.


Thanks - will the HR20 work with FTM?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Clint Lamor said:


> You can send me your HR20 and I will test it with my SlingBox so we can add it to the review.
> 
> :lol:


Or you can send me your SlingBox... hmmm... or maybe I drop Slingbox an email....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

LarryInAz said:


> Thanks - will the HR20 work with FTM?


I certainly hope it will... given that the label is on the box, and the manual has described what it is...


----------



## ad301

Wolffpack said:


> I also wouldn't go so far as saying the HR20 and R15 do not have a Wishlist feature. The Autorecord is about as close as you can get. It's major problem is not having the same guide data to search (missing info) and some of the search logic that eventually should be cleaned up.


The main problem with the search function on the r15 (and presumably on the hr20 as well) is the fact that it will only save 25 recent searches, and you must run each search individually. As has been said before, if you are a limited or non-user of wishlists on your tivo, then the search function may prove adequate. If you are into using wishlists to any greater extent, the r15 and hr20 inplementation of search falls very short.


----------



## LarryInAz

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or you can send me your SlingBox... hmmm... or maybe I drop Slingbox an email....


If yo've been considering adding a Slingbox to your "toy box" you can sometimes find them on sale for $149. I bought mine over a year ago for $249 and it was worth every penny then.  
With your confirmation that the HR20 can simultaneously feed a 480i signal while also viewing 1080i/720p this means I can remotely control + view a HD PVR via the Slingbox without lowering the resolution any time I want to use it remotely.

I see a 2nd Slingbox in my future...


----------



## Clint Lamor

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or you can send me your SlingBox... hmmm... or maybe I drop Slingbox an email....


No no I like my idea better. Then I can give MY review of it :lol:


----------



## Alan Gordon

Wolffpack said:


> I don't see any reason to bad mouth either the HR20 or R15. They are different DVRs than Tivos. I just believe everyone should be aware of the differences. The Tivos have their plus/minus points and the HR20/R15 has their plus/minus points.


I agree! The only thing is, I don't want people to THINK I'm badmouthing the HR20. I LOVE TiVo, BUT I'm open to trying new things, and I intend on getting a HR20 just as soon as I can (if OTA is enabled at that time), it's just that I'm disappointed in some of the features missing (as well as the ugly GUI, but that's beside the point) that I enjoy about my DVR experience.

I also understand that DirecTV will be switching over to a new GUI next year (THANK GOODNESS), and that with it will probably come new features, or new ways to use the current features, and hopefully it will address most of my issues.

But I just want to make people aware that my criticisms, are to be taken as criticisms, and not bashing!



Wolffpack said:


> I also wouldn't go so far as saying the HR20 and R15 do not have a Wishlist feature. The Autorecord is about as close as you can get. It's major problem is not having the same guide data to search (missing info) and some of the search logic that eventually should be cleaned up.


I know about the search feature, but from what I've read/seen, it's not as detailed regarding actors/actresses as the WishLists. For instance, I have about 20 actors/actresses on my WishList, and check back every few days to see if I wanted to record any of them. It just appears to be more difficult for me to do that with the HR20.

I'm on the Waiting List for a HR20, and I'm excited to try it out, but I do think it is important for us to speak our criticisms so that the people at DirecTV (who are said to read here) know what we like and dislike, and hopefully end up making a better unit... but I just don't want anybody thinking I'm bashing the unit (other than the UGLY GUI, but that's beside the point)...

~Alan


----------



## bonscott87

RE: The "extra" information about a program such as directors and such.

I was always under the impression that this extra information beyond basic description was one of the things that Tivo provided as part of their service. So Tivo "enhanced" the guide data. Is this not true? If it is that would explain why the DirecTV based DVR's don't have this data.


----------



## ad301

Alan Gordon said:


> I know about the search feature, but from what I've read/seen, it's not as detailed regarding actors/actresses as the WishLists. For instance, I have about 20 actors/actresses on my WishList, and check back every few days to see if I wanted to record any of them. It just appears to be more difficult for me to do that with the HR20.


I predict that you'll find that so tedious that you'll just give up. More difficult is an understatement. But when you get your hr20, try it for yourself, and then let us know.


Alan Gordon said:


> I'm on the Waiting List for a HR20, and I'm excited to try it out, but I do think it is important for us to speak our criticisms so that the people at DirecTV (who are said to read here) know what we like and dislike, and hopefully end up making a better unit... but I just don't want anybody thinking I'm bashing the unit (other than the UGLY GUI, but that's beside the point)...~Alan


I agree that people should try it for themselves, if they can, and then make their feelings known to D*. Just don't get your hopes up, and think that by expressing your personal needs for the box, that anything will change anytime soon. The r15, for example, has been out since November, and most of the issues identified on that box very early on have yet to be addressed. They seem, based on forum reports, to have improved the stability of the box, and *some* of the scheduling issues, but just don't expect speedy wholesale improvements in the hr20 based on user feedback. It just won't happen.


----------



## JoeSchueller

Perhaps it was all this extra guide data that was slooooowing down the HR10. 

I wish my friend still had his UltimateTV. I'd love to compare that GUI to the HR20. They seem to share some pretty similar characteristics, hopefully M$ doesn't get as sue-happy as our friends at TiVo. 

Since the ugly opinion has been tossed out regarding the GUI, I'll express my own opinion. I find it outright sexy. The speed with which it moves and the fact it lets me continue watching TV while I'm in the GUI are hot hot hot.


----------



## Steve

Hi Earl,

Can you turn HD captions on and off with one button from the remote? Or is it an ordeal wading through menus like the HR10-250?

Also, have you posted a picture of the remote anywhere?

TIA!

/steve

(Sorry if this has already been discussed, but a search for "captions" came up empty.)


----------



## fravelb

I have had one of the currently available H20 boxes since April and have been suffering through the HD channel audio / video synch issues with DirecTV's MPEG4 system. I assume this box doesn't fix that? Did the DVR playback make it any worse?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

fravelb said:


> I have had one of the currently available H20 boxes since April and have been suffering through the HD channel audio / video synch issues with DirecTV's MPEG4 system. I assume this box doesn't fix that? Did the DVR playback make it any worse?


I had lipsync issues occasionally with my H20...
But with the HR20... I haven't had a one, and I have spent a LOT more time watching the MPEG-4 feeds then I used to.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

sluciani said:


> Hi Earl,
> 
> Can you turn HD captions on and off with one button from the remote? Or is it an ordeal wading through menus like the HR10-250?
> 
> Also, have you posted a picture of the remote anywhere?
> 
> TIA!
> 
> /steve
> 
> (Sorry if this has already been discussed, but a search for "captions" came up empty.)


There is no QUICK button on the remote to turn Closed Caption on and off.
You need to go via the menu.. Quick Menu->Setup->Display->Closed Caption

As for the remotes:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=630038&postcount=277
&
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=630038&postcount=278


----------



## Alan Gordon

JoeSchueller said:


> Since the ugly opinion has been tossed out regarding the GUI, I'll express my own opinion. I find it outright sexy. The speed with which it moves and the fact it lets me continue watching TV while I'm in the GUI are hot hot hot.


My issues with the GUI are more with the color scheme. I would prefer something more alone the looks of this Interactive Feature that Earl posted. Plus, have the logos on the sides of the Program Guide, as well as in the "My VOD" area.

As it is currently, it reminds me of this AWFUL RCA receiver I used to have... and doesn't appear any more sophiscated than some of the first DirecTV receivers out there... it's kind of like going from Windows XP to Windows 3.1 (I would have said Deskmate, but that would have been cruel and harsh, plus, a lot of people wouldn't have gotten the reference).

With a different color scheme, and perhaps some more color (logos) added, I really like the PIG (it took me a while after switching to TiVo to doing without it)... but, DirecTV has stated they are going to a new GUI in 2007, and I kind of expect them to go with a more muted color scheme.

~Alan


----------



## sactoken

VettePilot said:


> Earl,
> 
> Is there a way you could capture a video of how quick the main guide works? I saw the one that you posted of the mini guide and it works really fast.


First off, I'd like to add my thanks to Earl for all his efforts. They've been incredibly helpful to me. Based on all I've learned, I probably will go for an HR20 when they're available.

I currently have an HDTiVo and the thing I'm most concerned about losing is the TiVo program guide. I use it all the time. It sounds like the HR20 can do something similar but it takes more steps to navigate through it.

Earl, when you do the video of the guide, could you show the info screen that gives the extended listing for a channel? Maybe navigate through it a bit (page down, select a program), and show how you move from the info screen for one channel to the info screen for another channel. I'd really appreciate seeing how this works! Thanks!


----------



## Steve

Earl Bonovich said:


> There is no QUICK button on the remote to turn Closed Caption on and off.
> You need to go via the menu.. Quick Menu->Setup->Display->Closed Caption
> [/url]


Thanks, Earl. Unbelievable that neither Tivo nor D* have considered how inconvenient this is.

[RANT]Why they just don't handle SD and HD closed captions with a single button the way subtitles are handled on DVD remotes or CC's on older standard def TV's is beyond me. I guess none of the engineers know anyone who is hearing-impaired.[/RANT]

/steve


----------



## BrettStah

Even if the standard remotes don't have a CC button, I wonder if the receiver(s) have a discrete CC on/off codes, or a CC toggle code? At least that way those folks with 3rd-party remotes could easily turn them on/off.


----------



## wmccain

Earl Bonovich said:


> All the outputs on the unit are active at all times... thus you can have 5 displays (but there are only 3 audio outputs), showing the same content at the same time.


I count _four_ (4) audio outputs: two analog stereo pairs, two digital audio outputs (optical and HDMI).

Of course, if you want to drive that many displays, in other rooms, chances are good that you already have a distribution amp of some kind (for instance, for composite/S-video and analog audio).

Bill


----------



## Steve

BrettStah said:


> Even if the standard remotes don't have a CC button, I wonder if the receiver(s) have a discrete CC on/off codes, or a CC toggle code? At least that way those folks with 3rd-party remotes could easily turn them on/off.


I totally agree. Unfortunatly, the HR10 has very few discretes available, and none for CC. Maybe the HR20 will have more available.

/steve


----------



## Earl Bonovich

wmccain said:


> I count _four_ (4) audio outputs: two analog stereo pairs, two digital audio outputs (optical and HDMI).
> 
> Of course, if you want to drive that many displays, in other rooms, chances are good that you already have a distribution amp of some kind (for instance, for composite/S-video and analog audio).
> 
> Bill


I forgot about the Audio via HDMI....
My setup is HDMI->DVI so I can't do the audio piece.


----------



## Capmeister

Earl Bonovich said:


> I forgot about the Audio via HDMI....
> My setup is HDMI->DVI so I can't do the audio piece.


You must insist to your wife that you need a new televison.

Ask her to sell some shoes.


----------



## Capmeister

sluciani said:


> Thanks, Earl. Unbelievable that neither Tivo nor D* have considered how inconvenient this is.
> 
> [RANT]Why they just don't handle SD and HD closed captions with a single button the way subtitles are handled on DVD remotes or CC's on older standard def TV's is beyond me. I guess none of the engineers know anyone who is hearing-impaired.[/RANT]
> 
> /steve


When people ask me to turn off the CC I just say "No." Problem solved.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Capmeister said:


> You must insist to your wife that you need a new televison.
> 
> Ask her to sell some shoes.


It has nothing to do with the Wife....
More to do with the Credit Card companies wanting the money that I spent on the first one...


----------



## gr8reb8

Earl,

A few pages back, you mentioned that you were planning to install a larger HD in the HR20. Has DirecTV made it so the unit will automatically use a brand new fresh/empty HD when installed?


----------



## wmccain

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, the HR20 is assignable 1 of 2 codes in IR modes.


According to the "custom installer" document (to which I have previously posted a link), the RC24 remote is capable of controlling four STBs, using four different IR code prefixes (or possibly suffixes, the document isn't clear about that - and for that matter, I know of at least one brand whose IR codes contain the same "device code" as _both_ a prefix _and_ a suffix). See page 33 of the installer document.

So, I would infer that the limitation to two IR codes is simply a firmware limit in the HR20 (and presumably, the R15 as well). That is, they have chosen to "surface" only two of the four possible codes at this time ...

Bill


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gr8reb8 said:


> Earl,
> 
> A few pages back, you mentioned that you were planning to install a larger HD in the HR20. Has DirecTV made it so the unit will automatically use a brand new fresh/empty HD when installed?


I won't know till I try...
I haven't gotten any "detail" details on if it is going to work or not.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> I won't know till I try...
> I haven't gotten any "detail" details on if it is going to work or not.


Since most people (if not all) will be getting the HR20 as a lease, would it be safe to assume that DirecTV wouldn't like this, or is it not a problem as long as you stick the original back in at the time of return?! If it works that is...

~Alan


----------



## wmccain

Capmeister said:


> Ask her to sell some shoes.


Either this is a coincidence, or you (like me) remember "Herman Horne on Hi-Fi" from the Stan Freberg radio shows (in the late 1950s):

"Naughty, naughty, Mrs. America, denying your husband the money he so desperately needs for a theater playback system, while you squander it on _shoes_ for the children - or perhaps a _second_ dress!"

"Remember, the _whole house_ becomes a speaker. _You_ move into the _garage_."

And this program was broadcast in the days before stereo, let alone 7.1-channel surround sound ...

Bill


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alan Gordon said:


> Since most people (if not all) will be getting the HR20 as a lease, would it be safe to assume that DirecTV wouldn't like this, or is it not a problem as long as you stick the original back in at the time of return?! If it works that is...
> ~Alan


It is going to be "sticky" with the fact that it is "technically" THEIR unit (on a lease). If they get the eSATA working, then I can see them completely locking down an internal upgrade option (kinda like they have eith the eSATA).

Or they will have to implement something on "defective" returns and stuff like that.. Could sticky ... hence why I am not "actively" pursuing it.


----------



## wmccain

bonscott87 said:


> I was always under the impression that this extra information beyond basic description was one of the things that Tivo provided as part of their service. So Tivo "enhanced" the guide data. Is this not true? If it is that would explain why the DirecTV based DVR's don't have this data.


There are two major suppliers of guide data: TV Guide and Tribune Media Services (TMS). TiVo uses TMS for their standalone boxes. (TMS listings are also found, among other places, at Yahoo and at Zap2It, which is actually TMS's own Web site.)

I'm not sure exactly who DirecTV uses for their listings, but I suspect that it is a special "condensed" feed from TMS. If you compare any given show among the three, you will find that the wording in the DirecTV listing resembles the TMS listing, only shorter. It doesn't resemble the TV Guide wording.

The DirecTiVo boxes, including the HR10-250, get their guide data by satellite download from DirecTV, _NOT_ via the phone line (or Internet connection) as the standalone TiVo boxes do. This guide data is the exact same "Advanced Program Guide" (APG) data that is downloaded by all current-model DirecTV receivers (older models used an earlier version of the guide that only held at most two days worth of data).

So the guide data downloaded and available to the R15, the HR20, and the HR10-250 is _exactly the same_. The differences being reported are "software design decisions": that is, how much of the guide data to save, and how much to display.

Bill


----------



## gregftlaud

so get this. i emailed directv with a few questions regarding the mpeg4 upgrade and tonite this guy from directv....the caller id said boise, idaho.....called me and asks me how he can help me. he said he didnt even read my email! i told him i had a few questions regarding the mpeg4 upgrade. he replied to me.... now this is hilarious......that the mpeg4 hd locals were right now only being tested in just a "few" markets!!!!! i told him that was not true and he had no clue whatsoever. i just hung up on him.

Earl. i'm not sure how close of a relationship to dtv you have. but do you have any idea why dtv csr's are not all educated about products and services in the same manner and in the same time frame? and why when u call 10 different csr's you get such a wide spectrum of different responses from each of them? this is not how business should be done and not how customers should be treated. it is unfair for a customer to suffer just because he happens to get ahold of the "wrong" csr in this csr russian roulette game we have to play. and indeed, we should not have to call so many times to get a right answer!


----------



## stroh

After reading the last 662 messages I have a few questions. I hope I didn't miss any previous answers to these:

1) Does the HR20 "know" what channels you recieve like the HIRD boxes did, or do you need to go through all of them and tell it. Are the descriptions better in the channel lists? How many favorite channel lists?

2) Can the guide be sorted like the HIRD recievers? (by name or by number?)

3) If there is a limit of 50 SLs, what happens when you hit record twice on #51?

4) Have the audio drops the HR10 experiences been fixed?

Looking forward to the video of the guide. Can you show, if the feature is available, page up and page down? (changing a whole screen at once instead of channel by channel)

Thanks for all the time and effort!

Michael


----------



## Wolffpack

JoeSchueller said:


> Perhaps it was all this extra guide data that was slooooowing down the HR10.


What? It's two year old software that slows down the HR10. The HR10 and any SD DTivos have the same guide data. SD DTivos running 6.2 have no problem with speed. The HR10 running 3.1.5 is slow. Nothing at all to do with guide data.


----------



## Wolffpack

wmccain said:


> I'm not sure exactly who DirecTV uses for their listings, but I suspect that it is a special "condensed" feed from TMS. If you compare any given show among the three, you will find that the wording in the DirecTV listing resembles the TMS listing, only shorter. It doesn't resemble the TV Guide wording.
> 
> The DirecTiVo boxes, including the HR10-250, get their guide data by satellite download from DirecTV, _NOT_ via the phone line (or Internet connection) as the standalone TiVo boxes do. This guide data is the exact same "Advanced Program Guide" (APG) data that is downloaded by all current-model DirecTV receivers (older models used an earlier version of the guide that only held at most two days worth of data).
> 
> So the guide data downloaded and available to the R15, the HR20, and the HR10-250 is _exactly the same_. The differences being reported are "software design decisions": that is, how much of the guide data to save, and how much to display.
> 
> Bill


TMS's site does list DirecTV as a customer in addition to Tivo. R15 and HR20 store guide data in memory (how do you spell storage limitations?) as Tivo guide data is stored on disk. My theory is that all units are getting the same raw data but the R15 and HR20 are "condensing" the guide data due to memory space limitations.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Folks - The following is the post of the decade. Wolfpack describes my opinion with absolute clarity. Thank you for posting it.

Damn - I really hate Rupert Murdoch.



Wolffpack said:


> Kinda funny isn't it? DTV is by far the leader in sports packages (especially with the exclusive NFLST) so DTV understands the value of it's customers that want the best sports coverage possible.
> 
> Anytime you see some newb ask if they should go with DTV or Dish or cable you hear some commonalities. Most HD selection = Dish. Best HD picture = cable. Best sports packages = DTV.
> 
> Yet here on this forum many of DTVs most prized sports customers have said over and over that they want/need dual live buffers to watch the sports pages they are buying from DTV in the method they have grown accustom to using.
> 
> On one hand DTV comes up with the NFLST Mix channels. Yet on the other hand DTV doesn't see a need for dual live buffers on their "next generation" DVRs. I guess it's a true "right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing" story and the DVR hand doesn't know DTV's customers.


----------



## PoitNarf

gregftlaud said:


> so get this. i emailed directv with a few questions regarding the mpeg4 upgrade and tonite this guy from directv....the caller id said boise, idaho.....called me and asks me how he can help me. he said he didnt even read my email! i told him i had a few questions regarding the mpeg4 upgrade. he replied to me.... now this is hilarious......that the mpeg4 hd locals were right now only being tested in just a "few" markets!!!!! i told him that was not true and he had no clue whatsoever. i just hung up on him.
> 
> Earl. i'm not sure how close of a relationship to dtv you have. but do you have any idea why dtv csr's are not all educated about products and services in the same manner and in the same time frame? and why when u call 10 different csr's you get such a wide spectrum of different responses from each of them? this is not how business should be done and not how customers should be treated. it is unfair for a customer to suffer just because he happens to get ahold of the "wrong" csr in this csr russian roulette game we have to play. and indeed, we should not have to call so many times to get a right answer!


This is not a D* problem. This plagues pretty much all call centers. The pay they receive does not attract the most intelligent or knowledgable people, or keep them there for very long. I used to be a CSR for Vonage, and I quit 3 days after the training was over. The pay I was getting wasn't enough for me to deal with rude customers that I was just trying to help. Turn-around in these jobs are quite high. Most of the time when you're talking to a CSR, they haven't been at the job for a long enough time to be an expert about their services.

And it is true that MPEG4 locals are only available in some markets. Granted this probably covers over 50% of the US population right now, but it's not all markets yet. Sometimes you just gotta give the CSR a break; most likely your job is much better than theirs.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nope... it has pretty much the same summary you would see in TV Guide.


Yet another regression from TiVo's world-class product.


----------



## Clint Lamor

PoitNarf said:


> This is not a D* problem. This plagues pretty much all call centers. The pay they receive does not attract the most intelligent or knowledgable people, or keep them there for very long. I used to be a CSR for Vonage, and I quit 3 days after the training was over. The pay I was getting wasn't enough for me to deal with rude customers that I was just trying to help. Turn-around in these jobs are quite high. Most of the time when you're talking to a CSR, they haven't been at the job for a long enough time to be an expert about their services.
> 
> And it is true that MPEG4 locals are only available in some markets. Granted this probably covers over 50% of the US population right now, but it's not all markets yet. Sometimes you just gotta give the CSR a break; most likely your job is much better than theirs.


So we should ignore their lack of knowledge because their pay isn't high enough? Sorry I don't agree with that, I come from a take pride in your job type of background. Your pay doesn't mean you can slack or do a bad job, if you don't know something ASK someone who does. I never have an issue when i'm told I'm not sure but i'll find out I always have a problem when someone lies to me because it's easier then finding out the truth. Ok done ranting now. Sorry for the off track post.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

stroh said:


> After reading the last 662 messages I have a few questions. I hope I didn't miss any previous answers to these:
> 
> 1) Does the HR20 "know" what channels you recieve like the HIRD boxes did, or do you need to go through all of them and tell it. Are the descriptions better in the channel lists? How many favorite channel lists?
> 
> 2) Can the guide be sorted like the HIRD recievers? (by name or by number?)
> 
> 3) If there is a limit of 50 SLs, what happens when you hit record twice on #51?
> 
> 4) Have the audio drops the HR10 experiences been fixed?
> 
> Looking forward to the video of the guide. Can you show, if the feature is available, page up and page down? (changing a whole screen at once instead of channel by channel)
> 
> Thanks for all the time and effort!
> 
> Michael


For #1... No, not yet at least. The functionality is there... however DirecTV has it currently disabled on ALL of it's receivers (not just in the HR20)

For #2... I don't believe so
For #3... It tells you that you have reached your limit
For #4... I never had any audio drop outs with the HR10... the HR20 has had some... But I have been told they should be vastly improved in the next software release.


----------



## PoitNarf

Clint Lamor said:


> So we should ignore their lack of knowledge because their pay isn't high enough? Sorry I don't agree with that, I come from a take pride in your job type of background. Your pay doesn't mean you can slack or do a bad job, if you don't know something ASK someone who does. I never have an issue when i'm told I'm not sure but i'll find out I always have a problem when someone lies to me because it's easier then finding out the truth. Ok done ranting now. Sorry for the off track post.


No, I'm just trying to explain why some experiences with CSRs are less than stellar. It was hard for me to take pride in my job at Vonage when 1/4 of all callers cursed at me or just had a general negative attitude towards me even though I was trying to help. Had the pay been higher I would have dealt with it for longer, but just like all call centers the low pay drives the good CSRs away when they get sick of it. You should never be happy with a CSR that lies, I wouldn't be either.


----------



## gregftlaud

Poitnarf....no he said the local hd's were just in the "test" phase


----------



## PoitNarf

gregftlaud said:


> Poitnarf....no he said the local hd's were just in the "test" phase


With the way my MPEG4 RSNs seem to have choppy 8mm motion, I'd tend to agree with him


----------



## gregftlaud

dude u know what i meant. the big 4 networks.


----------



## PoitNarf

gregftlaud said:


> dude u know what i meant. the big 4 networks.


I group the MPEG4 RSNs along with the big 4 as they are local to a specific area. And many have noticed that the MPEG4 HD locals have had similar motion problems that the MPEG4 RSNs have had. Sorry if I offended you even though I see you quickly edited your post.


----------



## PoitNarf

Earl,

After using the HR20 for so long, what is your favorite feature so far? Most impressive feature?


----------



## gregftlaud

the point is....is that they are not in test phase. period


----------



## wmccain

PoitNarf said:


> With the way my MPEG4 RSNs seem to have choppy 8mm motion, I'd tend to agree with him


I must have missed the news ... I did not know that the HD RSNs were now being carried on the MPEG4 satellites. *Can you point me to the appropriate thread?*

Since I care zip about pro sports in HD (or otherwise), this is of interest to me mainly in terms of "HD progress". That is, it indicates that DirecTV is serious about expanding their HD offerings to match (or exceed) cable. Sooner or later we will see Cinemax HD, Encore HD, etc. (I already get Starz HD, both East and West, on C-band).

And I _do_ care about sports, only it's _college_ sports that I follow, and so far the RSNs (which carry nearly all of my team's basketball games and many of the football games too) have not extended their HD coverage to the college level. But sooner or later, they will.

Bill


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

gregftlaud said:


> the point is....is that they are not in test phase. period


Sure they are - they have released a box with a disabled off-air antenna. Sounds like a release 0.9 to me.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wmccain...

There are a few threads in the General HD forum... just do a search for RSN and you will find the details (too many different threads to link).

They have added RSN HD I think about 12 cities so far (could be wrong on the number), Comcast Sports Net is supposed to be in August...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Sure they are - they have released a box with a disabled off-air antenna. Sounds like a release 0.9 to me.


So when the first DTivos where released... with just one tuner... where those just "test" too ?

Define it how ever you want... the box was released as it was released...
If you think it is a Test... good... if you don't... good...

Bottom line....

:backtotop


----------



## Earl Bonovich

PoitNarf said:


> Earl,
> 
> After using the HR20 for so long, what is your favorite feature so far? Most impressive feature?


It is really hard to say...

Most "Impressive" thing has been the performance of the box (speed wise). To me the box is most definently an improvement performance wise over any of the DirecTV DVRs.

I do find that simultaneous outputs of 480i and 1080i nice to have... as I can see that being a real benefit for DVD Recorders and stuff like that.

Favorite Feature... well it wasn't introduce with HR20... but the Picture In Guide is a MAJOR plus. Caller ID on my Plasma again is pretty nice too.

But ultimately it is the MPEG-4 feeds of my local CBS... I wasn't able to get my Local CBS on my HR10-250 via OTA... So now that I have it, I am looking forward to the Football season just that much more.


----------



## Wolffpack

PoitNarf said:


> Earl,
> 
> After using the HR20 for so long, what is your favorite feature so far? Most impressive feature?


OK, I'll ask the real question.

Earl, what's your biggest disappointment with the HR20? Sorry, you can't use inactive OTA tuners.


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl Bonovich said:


> But ultimately it is the MPEG-4 feeds of my local CBS... I wasn't able to get my Local CBS on my HR10-250 via OTA... So now that I have it, I am looking forward to the Football season just that much more.


But will CBS carry all games in HD this year as FOX has? I've always hated the few times the Lions were on CBS as they always were in SD.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wolffpack said:


> But will CBS carry all games in HD this year as FOX has? I've always hated the few times the Lions were on CBS as they always were in SD.


That is true... but at least now... I will enjoy the improved SD output of the unit  CBS has enough money to pay for a bazillion re-ality shows....

How about they pony up and buy some more HD trucks.. and show "reality" football in HD...

Ah well... another thread... another time.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wolffpack said:


> OK, I'll ask the real question.
> 
> Earl, what's your biggest disappointment with the HR20? Sorry, you can't use inactive OTA tuners.


Hmmmm...

Probably that right now, I can't "network" the HR20's together...
So even when I do get my second one, I will need to "toggle" between the two units.

I was already over the Dual Buffer because of the R15...
And even though I see the benefits of Wishlists... I really only used them to put all my recordings in one folder (on my SD-Tivos)...

Suggestions.... eh... with the forums and other places... I get plenty of ideas for new shows to watch.


----------



## PoitNarf

Wolffpack said:


> OK, I'll ask the real question.


Hehe, touche


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Ok, get ready to laugh and make comments, but.....

IF after a certain amount of time D* decided that they made a mistake by letting Tivo go and wanted to go back to Tivo, could these units support the Tivo software?

I know, I know, it is highly unlikely that D* would do this, but I'm just curious, after all, the new Tivo 3 will be coming out soon. 

http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/22/series-3-tivo-in-the-wild/

You know, if it was about money, they could have charged us a dollar more a month, I'm sure many of you would have paid the extra dollar to keep Tivo around.


----------



## Jeremy W

theratpatrol said:


> IF after a certain amount of time D* decided that they made a mistake by letting Tivo go and wanted to go back to Tivo, could these units support the Tivo software?


There is absolutely no way that would ever happen. But could the DVRs support the Tivo software? I'm sure it would be technically possible for Tivo to completely re-write their software for the new architecture, but it would be a massive undertaking and again, it will *NEVER* happen.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

theratpatrol said:


> Ok, get ready to laugh and make comments, but.....
> 
> IF after a certain amount of time D* decided that they made a mistake by letting Tivo go and wanted to go back to Tivo, could these units support the Tivo software?
> 
> I know, I know, it is highly unlikely that D* would do this, but I'm just curious, after all, the new Tivo 3 will be coming out soon.
> 
> http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/08/22/series-3-tivo-in-the-wild/
> 
> You know, if it was about money, they could have charged us a dollar more a month, I'm sure many of you would have paid the extra dollar to keep Tivo around.


Yah... and even from the link, the Beta testers are already having a tough time.... 4 cable-cards and 3 cable-guy visits...

But that is a discussion for www.tivocommunity.com... not here, since Tivo Series 3 won't support any DBS provider... and definently not in this thread.


----------



## wmccain

Earl Bonovich said:


> They have added RSN HD I think about 12 cities so far (could be wrong on the number), Comcast Sports Net is supposed to be in August...


Am I correct in assuming that RSN HD authorization is the same as RSN SD authorization? That is, you don't need a "with locals" subscription (which, at present, I don't have)?

I do have "Total Choice Premier no Locals". I canceled the locals option last fall when Channel 11 (NBC) moved their antenna from San Jose to San Francisco. Since my rooftop OTA antenna points to San Francisco, I now get excellent OTA reception of nearly every local station, both HD and SD.

So, with Total Choice Premier I get _all_ the RSNs, and I would thus expect to get them all in HD as well. (Of course, the pro games on my out-of-market RSNs are blacked out, but that matters naught to me.)

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California


----------



## Jeremy W

wmccain said:


> So, with Total Choice Premier I get _all_ the RSNs, and I would thus expect to get them all in HD as well.


At this time it would be physically impossible for you to get them all in HD, since they're being beamed down on spot beams.


----------



## Gotchaa

Wolffpack said:


> What? It's two year old software that slows down the HR10. The HR10 and any SD DTivos have the same guide data. SD DTivos running 6.2 have no problem with speed. The HR10 running 3.1.5 is slow. Nothing at all to do with guide data.


And I can attest it sucks when you have to reboot the unit, because you have to wait for all the guide data to reload over a number of hours, and it wasn't 6 either, easily over 24 for all to get back...

However I will say, that the speed of the Guide is so refreshing compared to the HR10, have you my 250 has 500GB as is fully loaded with programming, wishlists, and any reordering of season passes takes 10 minutes easily...I'd like to see the 6.3 upgrade on the HR10-250.

I think I can get use to the HR20's guide data detail deficiencies, but I can't deal with no OTA (coming), no dual buffers, and no space upgrade (hoping eSATA is enabled soon).


----------



## Gotchaa

Earl Bonovich said:


> I had lipsync issues occasionally with my H20...
> But with the HR20... I haven't had a one, and I have spent a LOT more time watching the MPEG-4 feeds then I used to.


I can attest that audio/video sync over HDMI could still be an issue. With ABC's West Coast HD feed, it is problematic. I wasn't able to compare it to OTA on the HR20, to see if it was the feed for sure.

Does anyone know what version of HDMi this unit is using? I would guess HDMI 1.2a, version 1.3 will add audio/video sync controls, perhaps future boxes will incorporate 1.3 next year when it becomes widely available.


----------



## Greyshadow2007

Wolffpack said:


> Why would a non-titanium customer call that number. In fact why call the Office of the Pres. The question was that a member received a letter that said he could get some stuff. He called and the CSR didn't know anything about that. Typical. The retention number is valid but other than that everyone knows you just call back again and ask a different CSR.
> 
> You call the OoP or TIT and asking about an upgrade your just going to be forwarded elsewhere.


The offer is for a free H20 upgrade. Call the main line. If the person doesn't know what you're talking about, ask to go to Tier II Technical or CIS


----------



## Greyshadow2007

Wolffpack said:


> Kinda funny isn't it? DTV is by far the leader in sports packages (especially with the exclusive NFLST) so DTV understands the value of it's customers that want the best sports coverage possible.
> 
> Anytime you see some newb ask if they should go with DTV or Dish or cable you hear some commonalities. Most HD selection = Dish. Best HD picture = cable. Best sports packages = DTV.
> 
> Yet here on this forum many of DTVs most prized sports customers have said over and over that they want/need dual live buffers to watch the sports pages they are buying from DTV in the method they have grown accustom to using.
> 
> On one hand DTV comes up with the NFLST Mix channels. Yet on the other hand DTV doesn't see a need for dual live buffers on their "next generation" DVRs. I guess it's a true "right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing" story and the DVR hand doesn't know DTV's customers.


DirecTV still has plans to incorporate Dual buffers into their DVR's (R15 and HR20.) From what a technical rep told me, the current issue has to do with Tivo licensing the technology.


----------



## Capmeister

wmccain said:


> Either this is a coincidence, or you (like me) remember "Herman Horne on Hi-Fi" from the Stan Freberg radio shows (in the late 1950s):
> 
> "Naughty, naughty, Mrs. America, denying your husband the money he so desperately needs for a theater playback system, while you squander it on _shoes_ for the children - or perhaps a _second_ dress!"
> 
> "Remember, the _whole house_ becomes a speaker. _You_ move into the _garage_."
> 
> And this program was broadcast in the days before stereo, let alone 7.1-channel surround sound ...
> 
> Bill


Heh. Nope, that's before my time. A girlfriend once commented, when I told her about the cost of a big screen TV, "Do you know how many shoes that would buy?!?"


----------



## Hey_Hey

I was wondering if you can have multiple HR20's in the same room, with separate IR control of each?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Gotchaa said:


> I can attest that audio/video sync over HDMI could still be an issue. With ABC's West Coast HD feed, it is problematic. I wasn't able to compare it to OTA on the HR20, to see if it was the feed for sure.
> 
> Does anyone know what version of HDMi this unit is using? I would guess HDMI 1.2a, version 1.3 will add audio/video sync controls, perhaps future boxes will incorporate 1.3 next year when it becomes widely available.


Hmm... glad I don't use HDMI audio then.... I use Optical to the receiver
I wonder if it is something to do with the HDMI drivers or something with HDMI itself...

I don't know enough about HDMI to know if it is just a software upgrade to go to HDMI 1.3 or anything like that (but wouldn't the TV need to support it as well).... Oh well discussion for another thread another time.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

adbs2007 said:


> DirecTV still has plans to incorporate Dual buffers into their DVR's (R15 and HR20.) From what a technical rep told me, the current issue has to do with Tivo licensing the technology.


It has 100% nothing to do with patents... period.
TiVo does not hold a blanket patent on having the ability to record/buffer two things once and have a toggle button between them.

As of last night... my contact acknowledged they have seen your posts and started to see your emails... they are again revisting the Dual Buffer situation.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Hey_Hey said:


> I was wondering if you can have multiple HR20's in the same room, with separate IR control of each?


If I only had a nickle... 

yes, you can operate two HR20's via IR mode
You can operate any practical amount of HR20's via RF mode


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Gotchaa said:


> And I can attest it sucks when you have to reboot the unit, because you have to wait for all the guide data to reload over a number of hours, and it wasn't 6 either, easily over 24 for all to get back...


But in normal practical usage.. .and given the unit doesn't fail or require a reboot as much (especially compared to the R15)..

It does take 24 hours to get it all back.

But you get "today" back nearly immediately...


----------



## neotide

Hey_Hey said:


> I was wondering if you can have multiple HR20's in the same room, with separate IR control of each?


I think that was answered a page or two back.


----------



## Capmeister

Earl Bonovich said:


> It has 100% nothing to do with patents... period.
> TiVo does not hold a blanket patent on having the ability to record/buffer two things once and have a toggle button between them.
> 
> As of last night... my contact acknowledged they have seen your posts and started to see your emails... they are again revisting the Dual Buffer situation.


Excellent. It didn't matter to me, but my brother said he cared. And we will likely have 3 HR20s in the house when all is said and done.


----------



## carl6

Earl Bonovich said:


> ... they are again revisting the Dual Buffer situation.


Could it be possible? Should we get our hopes up?

The way you worded that suggests that they had made a decision to not have dual buffers, and are now reconsidering that decision.

I doubt that would happen as the result of emails or posts of a single person, however the broader trend in these forums in strong favor of dual buffers might cause them to reconsider.

More likely is that they are also seeing a fair level of discontent not just on the forums, but also via call center reports or other feedback channels. Or, there is a serious risk of customer loss to competition that does have dual live buffers (and that WILL happen with some people).

Carl


----------



## Earl Bonovich

carl6 said:


> Could it be possible? Should we get our hopes up?
> 
> The way you worded that suggests that they had made a decision to not have dual buffers, and are now reconsidering that decision.
> 
> I doubt that would happen as the result of emails or posts of a single person, however the broader trend in these forums in strong favor of dual buffers might cause them to reconsider.
> 
> More likely is that they are also seeing a fair level of discontent not just on the forums, but also via call center reports or other feedback channels. Or, there is a serious risk of customer loss to competition that does have dual live buffers (and that WILL happen with some people).
> 
> Carl


Yes... with the R15.... They pretty much where against the dual buffers.
I never said ever... i just said , based on the information at the time, it would not be likely.

Actually... it had a lot to do with what has happened over the last week.
They have been watching the forums (all of them), and they have seen the replies and posts, and the emails.... that it is a feature that a significant amount of customers want...

So this isn't saying they "WILL" come, they have at least now re-evaluating the feature.


----------



## adam1115

anubys said:


> not really...since this is an mpeg4 unit, you will get the 4 major networks via SAT as well as OTA...so if you need to record something off of NBC and CBS, you can get one OTA and the other from SAT...
> 
> and if it means that we can still record a THIRD show off of SAT, well, that would make me VERY happy  (I don't think we will ever get to record three things at once, but I can dream!)...


First, you will only GET the 4 majos networks via sat in certain markets! Not EVERYONE who has direcTV will get HD-Locals via sat.

Second, their are MANY more locals than the 4 major networks...

Third, we now need line of site to FIVE Satellite locations. That may not be feasible for EVERYONE...

Fourth, it's very likely that the OTA signal will look better.


----------



## Capmeister

Since they're watching, let me say I like the idea of the 30 sec slip vs. skip. I don't mind seeing a commercial fast to see if maybe what's being sold/advertized would interest me. 

And, we do want dual buffers. Perhaps split the difference and make 2 of 45 mins vs one of 90 mins?


----------



## drawnad

Earl Bonovich said:


> As of last night... my contact acknowledged they have seen your posts and started to see your emails... they are again revisting the Dual Buffer situation.


This is GREAT news! I won't get my hopes up, but I will say that if they give us dual buffers (and activate the OTA), I'll be ready to switch!!

Thanks again, Earl, for keeping us informed!


----------



## Indiana627

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes... with the R15.... They pretty much where against the dual buffers.
> I never said ever... i just said , based on the information at the time, it would not be likely.
> 
> Actually... it had a lot to do with what has happened over the last week.
> They have been watching the forums (all of them), and they have seen the replies and posts, and the emails.... that it is a feature that a significant amount of customers want...
> 
> So this isn't saying they "WILL" come, they have at least now re-evaluating the feature.


Should we start an 'official sign up thread' for those demanding dual live buffers (I think there was a similar thread for HMO somewhere - though a lot of good it did). Would this help influence their re-evaluation?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Indiana627 said:


> Should we start an 'official sign up thread' for those demanding dual live buffers (I think there was a similar thread for HMO somewhere - though a lot of good it did). Would this help influence their re-evaluation?


It is already there... see the thread titled Dual Buffers....

I wouldn't take the same course of action as the HMO thread... I am actually still surprised that thread still exists.


----------



## cmoss5

wmccain said:


> I must have missed the news ... I did not know that the HD RSNs were now being carried on the MPEG4 satellites. *Can you point me to the appropriate thread?*
> 
> Since I care zip about pro sports in HD (or otherwise), this is of interest to me mainly in terms of "HD progress". That is, it indicates that DirecTV is serious about expanding their HD offerings to match (or exceed) cable. Sooner or later we will see Cinemax HD, Encore HD, etc. (I already get Starz HD, both East and West, on C-band).
> 
> And I _do_ care about sports, only it's _college_ sports that I follow, and so far the RSNs (which carry nearly all of my team's basketball games and many of the football games too) have not extended their HD coverage to the college level. But sooner or later, they will.
> 
> Bill


Where are you getting your STARZ HD?? Is not offered via the HD package and when I called DTV, they say are working on it in futue...


----------



## drawnad

I think if we all send NICE e-mails it will help -- I know this sounds naive, but you have to realize that many (if not all) of us interested in this product are the type of subscriber that Dtv LOVES to have -- call it 5 hearts, A-list, whatever. If they get enough comments asking for dual live buffers, and it is easy to do (which I think it is), I think we stand a chance of getting it done.

Go to the "Dual Buffers" thread to see examples of some e-mails that were sent:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118&page=3


----------



## wmschultz

cmoss5 said:


> Where are you getting your STARZ HD?? Is not offered via the HD package and when I called DTV, they say are working on it in futue...





> (I already get Starz HD, both East and West, on C-band).


----------



## stroh

Earl Bonovich said:


> Hmm... glad I don't use HDMI audio then.... I use Optical to the receiver I wonder if it is something to do with the HDMI drivers or something with HDMI itself...


On my HR10-250 I use Component to my Panasonic AE900 projector and the digital optical out to my Pioneer receiver. When watching there are frequent audio drops where one second of audio is missing and the picture continues without a hiccup. I was under the impression that this was a well known problem with the HR10-250 and was hoping it was fixed in the HR20.

Michael


----------



## stroh

Earl Bonovich said:


> If I only had a nickle...


Time for a FAQ already and it isn't even released to the general public yet. Gotta love technology.


----------



## ks1721

wmccain said:


> According to the "custom installer" document (to which I have previously posted a link), the RC24 remote is capable of controlling four STBs, using four different IR code prefixes (or possibly suffixes, the document isn't clear about that - and for that matter, I know of at least one brand whose IR codes contain the same "device code" as _both_ a prefix _and_ a suffix). See page 33 of the installer document.
> 
> So, I would infer that the limitation to two IR codes is simply a firmware limit in the HR20 (and presumably, the R15 as well). That is, they have chosen to "surface" only two of the four possible codes at this time ...
> 
> Bill


Hi Bill -
I know this is off topic for HR20, but I couldn't resist because I can't find any info on anywhere else and at least we are touching on the subject.

Is it possible to use one D* (Tivo) Remote to control separately two D* Tivo DVR's - say an HR10 and a D* SD Sony Branded (Tivo) DVR sitting side by side? As it is right now, I have to block one of the IR inputs so I don't affect the other Tivo - very annoying. Any references to information would be appreciated.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ks1721 said:


> Hi Bill -
> I know this is off topic for HR20, but I couldn't resist because I can't find any info on anywhere else and at least we are touching on the subject.
> 
> Is it possible to use one D* (Tivo) Remote to control separately two D* Tivo DVR's - say an HR10 and a D* SD Sony Branded (Tivo) DVR sitting side by side? As it is right now, I have to block one of the IR inputs so I don't affect the other Tivo - very annoying. Any references to information would be appreciated.


Yes... you just need to set the Remote Code on both the TiVo and the Remote.
Note.. the STOCK remote, can only control one at a time... you can go thorugh the remote code changing process when you want to control the other.

Or use a 2nd remote.
Or replace it with one of the SA-Tivo remotes that support TWO units.

See www.tivocommunity.com for details


----------



## anubys

adam1115 said:


> First, you will only GET the 4 majos networks via sat in certain markets! Not EVERYONE who has direcTV will get HD-Locals via sat.
> 
> Second, their are MANY more locals than the 4 major networks...
> 
> Third, we now need line of site to FIVE Satellite locations. That may not be feasible for EVERYONE...
> 
> Fourth, it's very likely that the OTA signal will look better.


yes...I know all that...all I was saying is that points 1, 2, and 4 can be worked around most of the time by grabing one of the OTA shows off of SAT...if there is an OTA conflict, for most people, that will probably include one of the major networks...

I agree that being able to record 2 OTA shows at the same time is something I want...but if I weigh it against the possibility of recording 3 shows at once (2 SAT and 1 OTA), I'll gladly work around the OTA limitation...


----------



## Wolffpack

anubys said:


> I agree that being able to record 2 OTA shows at the same time is something I want...but if I weigh it against the possibility of recording 3 shows at once (2 SAT and 1 OTA), I'll gladly work around the OTA limitation...


IF the intent is to allow OTA on one tuner only, why would there be two OTA tuners in the HR20?


----------



## ks1721

Thanks Earl!


----------



## joekun

> let me say I like the idea of the 30 sec slip vs. skip. I don't mind seeing a commercial fast to see if maybe what's being sold/advertized would interest me.


I want to address this misconception that if you use 30 second skip you don't "see" the commercials. Over the past 6 years using ReplayTV I can't count the number of times I've skipped to the middle of a movie commercial and then used the instant replay button to go back and watch it. Remember it's a 30 second skip, so you're going to see a few frames of whatever you skip to and that's plenty of time to determine if it's something interesting or not. With the 30 second slip I know that I'm going to be waiting so I tend to look away at the clock or do something else for a few seconds while I'm waiting. It's just an inconvenience.


----------



## Clint Lamor

joekun said:


> I want to address this misconception that if you use 30 second skip you don't "see" the commercials. Over the past 6 years using ReplayTV I can't count the number of times I've skipped to the middle of a movie commercial and then used the instant replay button to go back and watch it. Remember it's a 30 second skip, so you're going to see a few frames of whatever you skip to and that's plenty of time to determine if it's something interesting or not. With the 30 second slip I know that I'm going to be waiting so I tend to look away at the clock or do something else for a few seconds while I'm waiting. It's just an inconvenience.


I can pretty much guarantee you I see very very very little of any commercial and not enough to even know what it is let alone interest me when I hit 30 Second Skip 6 times on my SA Tivo. You are lucky if you see 1 frame for a fraction of a second. Not sure about ReplayTV because I only kept mine for about 2 days before taking it back.


----------



## chrisfowler99

Wolffpack said:


> IF the intent is to allow OTA on one tuner only, why would there be two OTA tuners in the HR20?


Watch one, record one?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

chrisfowler99 said:


> Watch one, record one?


The one you are "Watching" it is still recording in the buffer... so both are recording "technically"

You are going to be able to record 2 OTA things at once.


----------



## Rob Dawn

Earl Bonovich said:


> You are going to be able to record 2 OTA things at once.


This is *FANTASTIC* news!! (OTA eliminates rain fade problems that the SAT has so I'd rather use OTA then SAT.)

But, just to make completely sure that I understand this:

Will the HR20 record 3 things at once? Either 2 SAT & 1 OTA -or- 1 SAT & 2 OTA?​
If that is the case and it continues to perform for Earl as it has so far, then I'll be switching as soon as Southern Colorado locals are up in MPEG4 since I have a couple nights with 3 shows on at once. (I'm sure I'm not the only person who is surprised at how well the unit is performing for Earl after the R15 troubles.)

Thanks Earl!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Rob Dawn said:


> This is *FANTASTIC* news!! (OTA eliminates rain fade problems that the SAT has so I'd rather use OTA then SAT.)
> 
> But, just to make completely sure that I understand this:
> 
> Will the HR20 record 3 things at once? Either 2 SAT & 1 OTA -or- 1 SAT & 2 OTA?​
> If that is the case and it continues to perform for Earl as it has so far, then I'll be switching as soon as Southern Colorado locals are up in MPEG4 since I have a couple nights with 3 shows on at once. (I'm sure I'm not the only person who is surprised at how well the unit is performing for Earl after the R15 troubles.)
> 
> Thanks Earl!


Not to burst your excitment a bit...
I have been told that the unit will only be able to record 2 Items "NET"
So either:
1 OTA
1 SAT
1 OTA & 1 SAT
2 OTA
2 SAT

I dont' know if the unit was designed in a way that they could change that in the future or not. I have plenty of nights when I have more then 2 things that want to record


----------



## dogbreath

Is the SATA I or II?


----------



## Wolffpack

chrisfowler99 said:


> Watch one, record one?


But the excuse I've seen here is you can record your local HD via the MPEG4 SAT signal. I guess I'm confused. I you can only record from one OTA tuner (which I doubt is true) then you only need one OTA tuner. If you want to watch a different HD local show you can pull that from your MPEG4 LILs.


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not to burst your excitment a bit...
> I have been told that the unit will only be able to record 2 Items "NET"
> So either:
> 1 OTA
> 1 SAT
> 1 OTA & 1 SAT
> 2 OTA
> 2 SAT


So the same as the HR10.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dogbreath said:


> Is the SATA I or II?


I don't know.... My guess would be SATA II.. but that would just be a guess.
Maybe one of these guys that have researched each chip on the main board can let us know.


----------



## dogbreath

I could not read the model # of the harddrive in your pictures. Could you give me the model # and I should be able to determine if it is I or II?

Thanks,
dogbreath


----------



## Sixto

Earl Bonovich said:


> they are again revisting the Dual Buffer situation.


Interesting ... they sure would eliminate a major issue (and stop legions of complaints) if they just caved and implemented dual buffers ... seems like they may (finally!) be realizing that. Cool.


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't know.... My guess would be SATA II.. but that would just be a guess.
> Maybe one of these guys that have researched each chip on the main board can let us know.


I could only pull off a few chip Ids from the pics and not of much use.


----------



## Wolffpack

dogbreath said:


> I could not read the model # of the harddrive in your pictures. Could you give me the model # and I should be able to determine if it is I or II?
> 
> Thanks,
> dogbreath


SR3300831SCE. Of course not mentioned on the Seagate site. But ST3300831AS shows SATA II.


----------



## joekun

> I can pretty much guarantee you I see very very very little of any commercial and not enough to even know what it is let alone interest me when I hit 30 Second Skip 6 times on my SA Tivo. You are lucky if you see 1 frame for a fraction of a second. Not sure about ReplayTV because I only kept mine for about 2 days before taking it back.


I can't speak to Tivo's 30 second skip, the only thing I remember about it is that you had to do something funky to get it to turn on and when you skipped to a point that was live you could never tell that you were actually live because it would still try to do the skip at that point. I don't know if Tivo "buffers" your 30 second skips like the HR20 does with the slips, but with replay (when I'm not using Commercial Advance) I always see a few frames of a commercial and if it's something interesting I stop and go back. So if it doesn't buffer your button presses then you would still see enough of the commercial before pressing the button again to determine whether it is of interest or not.

And even if 30 second slip were changed to skip, those that care can still FF, so I don't see any reason to be against choice and try to undermine the #1 feature that I want for this DVR by appealing directly to the D* people viewing this board. I don't care one whit about dual buffers but you don't see me asking D* not to implement that feature.


----------



## BrettStah

Earl, if you see a show that's on (but not being recorded), and press the record button, what happens? In other words, does it act like the DirecTivos and take whatever part of the current show and add it to the recording, or does it clear the buffer and start recording from that point in the show until the end of the show (like the old Tivo software did)?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

BrettStah said:


> Earl, if you see a show that's on (but not being recorded), and press the record button, what happens? In other words, does it act like the DirecTivos and take whatever part of the current show and add it to the recording, or does it clear the buffer and start recording from that point in the show until the end of the show (like the old Tivo software did)?


If there is content in the buffer for that show... it will take it... and just it... it won't take the earlier part of the buffer. (I am 100% sure on the first half of that statement and 99% sure on the 2nd... I'll have to test it)


----------



## g4jedi

Earl Bonovich said:


> If there is content in the buffer for that show... it will take it... and just it... it won't take the earlier part of the buffer. (I am 100% sure on the first half of that statement and 99% sure on the 2nd... I'll have to test it)


I'd be curious about this as well. One thing I do like about TiVo, is that when watching a show and you decide to record it, it will record the entire show from the beginning as long as you were already on that channel and there was enough buffered.

While I have been a TiVo (D*) fan for the last seven years and a HD customer for a year and a half, I am really excited about this new HD DVR. I live in San Diego and can't wait to get my hands on one of these new HR20 units. Sure, the interface isn't exactly like TiVo, but it's not that much different either. Certainly better than any cable or D_sh Netwo_rk DVRs I've ever seen. I had a chance to play with one of the non-HD DVRs (H20 I think) and it wasn't that bad. The thing I really liked was how FAST it was. It was 50% full too! Every TiVo I have ever used gets extrmely slow after you get some show recorded.

Quite honestly, I have never been happy with our HR10-250. It's been plagued with problems since the day I bought it (for a hefty price). Certainly the worst TiVo unit of the three that we've had throughout the years. I think the hard drive in it is about to take a dump. I have to reset the thing a lot lately due to hiccups, freezes, shows deleting themselves, recordings stopping by themselves etc etc etc. I hope it lasts long enough until I can get one of the HR20s. I refuse to pay weaknees.com to fix it.

Needless to say, I have signed up to be on the waiting list. I want an HR20 yesterday! Especially after reading Earl's most excellent review. When he says: "I can EASILY see myself replacing my R15's for the HR20... even if that TV isn't HD.. It is that good." I get a very good feeling about this piece of hardware! Thanks Earl!


----------



## wmccain

cmoss5 said:


> Where are you getting your STARZ HD?? Is not offered via the HD package and when I called DTV, they say are working on it in future...


Read my post more carefully: *"I already get Starz HD, both East and West, on C-band."*

In the off chance that you don't know what C-Band is, it is "big dish" satellite TV (which actually includes Ku-Band as well as C-Band). There are still folks (like myself) using big dishes (though many of us, like me, also have DBS "mini-dishes"). Most C-Band channels have moved from the old analog format to a digital format, and most (but not all) of that is still offered for subscription (a la carte as well as in packages). There is stuff to which you can subscribe on C/Ku-Band that is not available on either of the two DBS providers, and vice versa, and there are even some "in the clear" channels that require no subscription.

Practically everything you get on DirecTV or Dish is downloaded on big dishes by them and then re-uploaded to their DBS satellites. Several different vendors provide different digital encryption technologies for big dishes, but only one of them (DigiCipher II from Motorola, formerly General Instruments) is available for subscription "to the public" (the other technologies, such as Scientific Atlanta's PowerVU, are available only to commercial subscribers such as cable head-ends and the two DBS companies). Fortunately, DigiCipher II is the most widely-used big dish digital technology. Unfortunately, some program providers (such as HDNet) have chosen other technologies and thus their channels are not available to consumers.

(Actually, there is a third case, non-encrypted digital signals that use an international standard format called DVB, and I seem to recall that HDNet may be one of the programmers that use it. There are DVB receivers available to consumers, but I don't have one. It's a bit of a hassle, because there are no receivers that support _both_ DigiCipher II _and_ DVB in a single unit.)

The list of HD channels available on the big dish is agonizingly short, but it does include a few that DirecTV does not have:

Showtime HD West
Starz HD East
Starz HD West
Wealth TV HD (in the clear)
Nebraska PBS HD (in the clear)

The other main advantage of a big dish is the premium movie channels. The big dish has them all, and they are _all_ available for subscription. Last time I counted, there are a total of 26 different HBO/Cinemax SD feeds, 24 different Showtime/TMC SD feeds, and 29 different Starz/Encore SD feeds. (That list includes both East and West feeds, but there are several channels, such as @max, OuterMax, and Encore IndiePlex, that have only one feed.) There is no cable company or DBS company that carries _all_ of the movie channels!

Bill


----------



## TheRatPatrol

wmccain said:


> Read my post more carefully: *"I already get Starz HD, both East and West, on C-band."*
> 
> In the off chance that you don't know what C-Band is, it is "big dish" satellite TV (which actually includes Ku-Band as well as C-Band). There are still folks (like myself) using big dishes (though many of us, like me, also have DBS "mini-dishes"). Most C-Band channels have moved from the old analog format to a digital format, and most (but not all) of that is still offered for subscription (a la carte as well as in packages). There is stuff to which you can subscribe on C/Ku-Band that is not available on either of the two DBS providers, and vice versa, and there are even some "in the clear" channels that require no subscription.
> 
> Practically everything you get on DirecTV or Dish is downloaded on big dishes by them and then re-uploaded to their DBS satellites. Several different vendors provide different digital encryption technologies for big dishes, but only one of them (DigiCipher II from Motorola, formerly General Instruments) is available for subscription "to the public" (the other technologies, such as Scientific Atlanta's PowerVU, are available only to commercial subscribers such as cable head-ends and the two DBS companies). Fortunately, DigiCipher II is the most widely-used big dish digital technology. Unfortunately, some program providers (such as HDNet) have chosen other technologies and thus their channels are not available to consumers.
> 
> (Actually, there is a third case, non-encrypted digital signals that use an international standard format called DVB, and I seem to recall that HDNet may be one of the programmers that use it. There are DVB receivers available to consumers, but I don't have one. It's a bit of a hassle, because there are no receivers that support _both_ DigiCipher II _and_ DVB in a single unit.)
> 
> The list of HD channels available on the big dish is agonizingly short, but it does include a few that DirecTV does not have:
> 
> Showtime HD West
> Starz HD East
> Starz HD West
> Wealth TV HD (in the clear)
> Nebraska PBS HD (in the clear)
> 
> The other main advantage of a big dish is the premium movie channels. The big dish has them all, and they are _all_ available for subscription. Last time I counted, there are a total of 26 different HBO/Cinemax SD feeds, 24 different Showtime/TMC SD feeds, and 29 different Starz/Encore SD feeds. (That list includes both East and West feeds, but there are several channels, such as @max, OuterMax, and Encore IndiePlex, that have only one feed.) There is no cable company or DBS company that carries _all_ of the movie channels!
> 
> Bill


Just curious, but how much does a subscription cost to C-Band?


----------



## wmccain

ks1721 said:


> Is it possible to use one D* (Tivo) Remote to control separately two D* Tivo DVR's - say an HR10 and a D* SD Sony Branded (Tivo) DVR sitting side by side?


There is no convenient way to do this with a _single_ remote, but TiVo units have a whole bunch of different IR codes. So you can program three TiVo remotes to separate IR codes, each one controlling a separate unit. Then put "stickers" on them so you know "which peanut is which" - and just be sure to grab the right one when you want to do something!

See the TiVo documentation for the "how to" details. There is a TiVo setup menu you need to use, and it is a bit hard-to-find ...

Bill


----------



## wmccain

theratpatrol said:


> Just curious, but how much does a subscription cost to C-Band?


It varies quite a bit, since there are two major subscription providers that compete with each other (NPS and Superstar _aka_ Netlink) and they offer most channels in a wide variety of different packages or _a la carte_. (_A la carte_ doesn't always mean just a single channel can be ordered by itself. They come in small groups. A CNN subscription would also include Headline News. An HBO subscription gets you _all_ the HBO channels.)

I just recently renewed my annual subscription to all three premium movie channel groups (HBO/Cinemax, Showtime/TMC, and Starz/Encore) and it cost me $450 for the year (from NPS). They originally wanted around $500 but you can negotiate, not only because they have a competitor but also because _somebody_ (usually Showtime, sometimes HBO) is nearly always running a "special offer" with a discount off the "regular price".

Bill


----------



## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> As of last night... my contact acknowledged they have seen your posts and started to see your emails...


Does this include my posts about the bug on the H20 where entering a local channel number takes you to the SD version of the channel in certain markets? I really hate to be a bother, but it's a big issue to me! I'd really love to see this corrected in the HR20, and maybe someday even the H20.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> Does this include my posts about the bug on the H20 where entering a local channel number takes you to the SD version of the channel in certain markets? I really hate to be a bother, but it's a big issue to me! I'd really love to see this corrected in the HR20, and maybe someday even the H20.


I do know they are aware of that issue with the H20.... and I know here in Chicago it works like you expected it to.. HD channel first...


----------



## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> I do know they are aware of that issue with the H20.... and I know here in Chicago it works like you expected it to.. HD channel first...


If they'd like to send an HR20 out to me so I can test it in Detroit, I'd be more than willing to accept it!


----------



## pappys

Earl Bonovich said:


> I do know they are aware of that issue with the H20.... and I know here in Chicago it works like you expected it to.. HD channel first...


I am curious, does the H20, do the same for the other markets (i.e. show the SD first instead of the HD), since it is basically the same technology.

Just a thought...

Edit: removed the r15 stupid post


----------



## Jeremy W

pappys said:


> I am curious, does the H20 or R15 do the same for the other markets (i.e. show the SD first instead of the HD), since it is basically the same technology.


The R15 can't receive the MPEG4 HD locals, so that's out of the question. And the only two places in the country where the HR20 is in use right now (LA and Chicago) are not places that experienced the issue with the H20. That's why I'm offering to _allow_ DirecTV to send me an HR20 to test in Detroit, because we have the problem here with the H20. I can't remember the other markets where this problem occurs, but I do know that it's not just Detroit.


----------



## pappys

Jeremy W said:


> The R15 can't receive the MPEG4 HD locals, so that's out of the question. And the only two places in the country where the HR20 is in use right now (LA and Chicago) are not places that experienced the issue with the H20. That's why I'm offering to _allow_ DirecTV to send me an HR20 to test in Detroit, because we have the problem here with the H20.


Sorry, I don't even know why I put the R15 in there. I knew it didn't receive the MPEG4. I think I need another drink...


----------



## Gotchaa

Earl Bonovich said:


> If there is content in the buffer for that show... it will take it... and just it... it won't take the earlier part of the buffer. (I am 100% sure on the first half of that statement and 99% sure on the 2nd... I'll have to test it)


That has been my experience as well. After coming back from watching a recording, I hit record on the live buffer and it started from just the beginning.


----------



## jimmyt

earl - I havent seen this asked in the 30 plus pages so far.. so .. how is the noise on the unit.. the hr10-250 was / is a little louder than my htpc - so when the two are combined I can slightly hear them from 10 feet away.. but if I shut off the tivo I can barley hear the htpc - meaning the bulk of the noise is the tivo

thanks
jim


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jimmyt said:


> earl - I havent seen this asked in the 30 plus pages so far.. so .. how is the noise on the unit.. the hr10-250 was / is a little louder than my htpc - so when the two are combined I can slightly hear them from 10 feet away.. but if I shut off the tivo I can barley hear the htpc - meaning the bulk of the noise is the tivo
> 
> thanks
> jim


Someone did ask... way back when.. .but it has been a while.. 

I can barely hear the HR20 when I am standing right next to it....
But it is possible the HR10 and the DSR704 that it sits on top of, are drowning out it's noise.


----------



## davidord

My HR20 was installed yesterday. The first unit was DOA, but the second unit they tried worked. The total install for the dish and HR20 took over five hours. 

I was using an H10 receiver. On the guides on the H10 the resolution, or the size of the type changed to a smaller cleaner font, when the input was changed to 720p or 1080i. On the HR20, the guides stay large. Am I missing something? Is there an upgrade coming to fix this problem? 

First impressions:

1. Picture quality much better than H10
2. Faster than my Hughes Tivo (standard def)
3. Fairly plain, but easy interface 
4. Some audio issues with dolby digital (no sound for a few seconds)
5. Some pixelization, freeze ups (although I need to check transponder signals)

Any help or ideas on the display size would be appreciated. I'm not sure how the H20 or R15 function. I hope this isn't by design. Display guides way too big.


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## Earl Bonovich

davidord said:


> My HR20 was installed yesterday. The first unit was DOA, but the second unit they tried worked. The total install for the dish and HR20 took over five hours.
> 
> I was using an H10 receiver. On the guides on the H10 the resolution, or the size of the type changed to a smaller cleaner font, when the input was changed to 720p or 1080i. On the HR20, the guides stay large. Am I missing something? Is there an upgrade coming to fix this problem?
> 
> First impressions:
> 
> 1. Picture quality much better than H10
> 2. Faster than my Hughes Tivo (standard def)
> 3. Fairly plain, but easy interface
> 4. Some audio issues with dolby digital (no sound for a few seconds)
> 5. Some pixelization, freeze ups (although I need to check transponder signals)
> 
> Any help or ideas on the display size would be appreciated. I'm not sure how the H20 or R15 function. I hope this isn't by design. Display guides way too big.


The Guide display size is going to be worked on... not sure when, but they are planning to "update" that guide to make better usage of the HD resolution and the larger screens they are on.


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## davidord

Earl Bonovich said:


> The Guide display size is going to be worked on... not sure when, but they are planning to "update" that guide to make better usage of the HD resolution and the larger screens they are on.


Thanks for the quick response. I was surprised to see the guides didn't respond like the H10, since my H10 has been out for some time. I guess, being an early adopter has its pluses and minuses.


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## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> The Guide display size is going to be worked on... not sure when, but they are planning to "update" that guide to make better usage of the HD resolution and the larger screens they are on.


Any idea if those enhancements will be coming to the H20 as well?


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## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> Any idea if those enhancements will be coming to the H20 as well?


The HR20 and the H20 are independent software platforms.
If it works out well on the HR20....then it is possible it will also be put into different systems... but no guarantees.


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## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 and the H20 are independent software platforms.


It seems like such a waste to have two independent software platforms for two receivers that are so similar. I figured they'd at least have the same code base.


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## Earl Bonovich

Jeremy W said:


> It seems like such a waste to have two independent software platforms for two receivers that are so similar. I figured they'd at least have the same code base.


"Seem Similar" on a common UI look...
They are VERY different underneath the covers


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## Jeremy W

Earl Bonovich said:


> "Seem Similar" on a common UI look...
> They are VERY different underneath the covers


I know they're different, but I don't see a need for that. The HR20 is, essentially, an H20 with DVR features. Why does that necessitate a completely different code base? It just seems like a waste of time and money to me.


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## walters

Jeremy W said:


> I know they're different, but I don't see a need for that. The HR20 is, essentially, an H20 with DVR features. Why does that necessitate a completely different code base? It just seems like a waste of time and money to me.


Those I can sort of understand. What I don't understand is there is apparently nothing common between the R15 and the HR20.

A DTiVo is very different under the covers from a standalone which is very different under the covers from a Humax with DVD recording, but they still share as much as they can. It just makes maintenance so much easier.


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## Capmeister

Earl Bonovich said:


> "Seem Similar" on a common UI look...
> They are VERY different underneath the covers


I hope the OTA tuners are the same. I love how much better than the HR10 my H20's tuner is.


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## bobnielsen

walters said:


> Those I can sort of understand. What I don't understand is there is apparently nothing common between the R15 and the HR20.
> 
> A DTiVo is very different under the covers from a standalone which is very different under the covers from a Humax with DVD recording, but they still share as much as they can. It just makes maintenance so much easier.


I suspect that the R15 and HR20 have a completely different hardware base (possibly different CPUs and maybe even OS). What is somewhat common is the user interface, which is also common to the D10 and H20. It may look the same, but how they get there is quite different.


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## Jeremy W

Capmeister said:


> I hope the OTA tuners are the same. I love how much better than the HR10 my H20's tuner is.


It has been said that the HR20's tuners are even better than the H20's.


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## twaller

Well, we will find out when they are actually enabled.


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## KTHD Images

Capmeister said:


> I hope the OTA tuners are the same. I love how much better than the HR10 my H20's tuner is.


I also have found that the H20 tuner is better. I am in the San Jose area and NBC -11.1 is often disrupted on the HR10 DVR but not on the H20.

KT


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## Jeremy W

KTHD Images said:


> I also have found that the HR20 tuner is better. I am in the San Jose area and NBC -11.1 is often disrupted on the HR10 DVR but not on the HR20.


The OTA tuner is not active on the HR20. Are you talking about the H20?


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## dvrblogger

PoitNarf said:


> I group the MPEG4 RSNs along with the big 4 as they are local to a specific area. And many have noticed that the MPEG4 HD locals have had similar motion problems that the MPEG4 RSNs have had. Sorry if I offended you even though I see you quickly edited your post.


THis seems to be an encode rproblem as it happens on H20 bxoes. It is most apparent when viewing upconverted SD on shows that have a tcijker like the morning news shows. I assume it'll get fixed in a software release at teh encoders. The MPEG2 HD feeds of the same station dont have the problem.


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## dvrblogger

Hey_Hey said:


> I was wondering if you can have multiple HR20's in the same room, with separate IR control of each?


you can set one to use RF and one to use IR


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## Earl Bonovich

dvrblogger said:


> you can set one to use RF and one to use IR


The HR20's support TWO IR code sets.
You can control TWO HR20's via IR from one remote.


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## dvrblogger

Earl Bonovich said:


> "Seem Similar" on a common UI look...
> They are VERY different underneath the covers


At some point the H20s will have access to applications and share more features with the HR20.Similar ot D10 boxes that got upgraded to support Mosaic channels etc.


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## gregftlaud

just out of curiosity.....

can the hr20 be connected to the 3lnb dish?

i was just wondering for future reference if i just happen to get the hr20 before i have the 5lnb dish installed. 

i am not worried about getting the mpeg4 hd locals via the 5lnb dish since i could hook my ota antenna into the hr20 and get my local hds

but like i said...just curious ......would it work with the 3lnb dish? and when u go thru the hr20 setup does it ask what kind of dish setup u have?

thanks
greg


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## bigredexpy

Earl Bonovich said:


> No you can't... And it is not because of the HR20.
> The MPEG-4 signal is going to be carried in the frequency range that the diplexors use to carry the OTA signal.
> 
> However, there is some technology in the works that will allow you to only use 1 cable to feed the SAT tuners. Not sure when it is going to be released, or all the details on it though.


Thanks for the review Earl. If I'm reading this correctly then I cannot use the same cable to carry both sat and ota from my 5x8 powered multiswitch? Would this apply to ALL of my receivers? My current setup is Phase III and OTA antenna to powered 5x8 to 6 different boxes then diplexor to separate the OTA. That would be a pain, meaning I would need to run ota to each of my locations. Please say it ain't so.


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## Spinner

Jeremy W said:


> That's correct. Only the HR20 (and H20) will receive RSNs in HD.


Thanks for the reply.

I guess I will be going with the HR20. Can't tell you how much I will miss Tivo. Like saying goodbye to an old friend.

Has anyone heard if there's a way around the 1 DVR per 6 months rule that Directv now has?


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## KTHD Images

Jeremy W said:


> The OTA tuner is not active on the HR20. Are you talking about the H20?


Yes I am. I edited my typo this evening. H20 is correct.

Thanks

KT


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## Wally of Escondido

sporttime said:


> I live within Los Angeles County and called Retention to see about swapping out our current HR10 for the HR20 but was told that it is only available to new DirecTV customers currently. There is no program yet for current HD DVR customers who want to exchange their receiver for the new one. Can this be true? Has anyone else experienced this?
> 
> Also, Retention gave me the HR10 at no charge a few months ago as a long-time customer and told me that when the HR20 was released I would be able to swap it out at no or minimal charge. Now the folks at Retention I spoke with said that I "used up" my 1 free receiver option and I have to pay $400 if I want the HR20. I am not being greedy, and I do appreciate the receiver I was given, but I probably would have waited for the HR20 had I known that I only had 1 silver bullet to use toward a free receiver. Any info or advice that anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thank you,
> Drew


Call back again and tell them you would like to upgrade to the HR20. I had to call three times until I got someone that knew what was what. I was told that the reason I had to pay the $400 was that my HD reciever did not have the hard drive it would be free if I did but because I was a long time user they would give me $150 off so it should be installed Tuesday, it would have been installed today but the installer [Ironwood Communications] ran out of HR20s and they let me sit here at home all day--- lost out on a great lunch.


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## Earl Bonovich

I moved some of the RSN discussion to this thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62645


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## Earl Bonovich

bigredexpy said:


> Thanks for the review Earl. If I'm reading this correctly then I cannot use the same cable to carry both sat and ota from my 5x8 powered multiswitch? Would this apply to ALL of my receivers? My current setup is Phase III and OTA antenna to powered 5x8 to 6 different boxes then diplexor to separate the OTA. That would be a pain, meaning I would need to run ota to each of my locations. Please say it ain't so.


This will only be the case when you upgrade to the AT9 Dish...

One way would be to do what I do:

AT-9 > Zinwel WB68 multiswitch
4 outputs of the Zinwell to your existing 5x8

To your MPEG-4 enabled box, connect directly to the zinwell... and use a dedicated OTA line.

For any of your others, use it the way you have it hooked up now.

The OTA diplexing shifts into a frequency range that part of the MPEG-4 sat signal runs.

In the semi-near future, new technology should be comming to only have to have 1 cable for DVRs (FTM)... at that point, you will already have that 2nd wire for the OTA runs.


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## davidord

I've noticed since my install of the HR20 on Wednesday, the MPEG-4 channels have trouble picking up the dolby digital signal. I would say 25 % of the time, my receiver will not pick up the DD signal. The only sure way of getting the audio is to turn to an MPEG-2 hi-def channel, and then turn back to the MPEG-4 HD channel. This may not be the fault of the HR20, because I've tried recording the MPEG-4 HD channels when I did not hear audio and upon playback their is sound. Any thoughts on the cause would be appreciated. My receiver is a Yamaha RXV-995.

Thx.


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## Earl Bonovich

davidord said:


> I've noticed since my install of the HR20 on Wednesday, the MPEG-4 channels have trouble picking up the dolby digital signal. I would say 25 % of the time, my receiver will not pick up the DD signal. The only sure way of getting the audio is to turn to an MPEG-2 hi-def channel, and then turn back to the MPEG-4 HD channel. This may not be the fault of the HR20, because I've tried recording the MPEG-4 HD channels when I did not hear audio and upon playback their is sound. Any thoughts on the cause would be appreciated. My receiver is a Yamaha RXV-995.
> 
> Thx.


It's not your receiver.... there is just something Odd going on with the MPEG-4 DD audio streams.... They are "there" and are being recorded, but sometimes the just don't output when you tune the channel.

DirecTV knows about the issue, and they are working on correcting.
The work aroudn you listed... is the same one I use (73 then back to the MPEG-4)

Normally this only happens when I first tune in the channel... I haven't lost the audio once I was there.


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## davidord

Earl Bonovich said:


> It's not your receiver.... there is just something Odd going on with the MPEG-4 DD audio streams.... They are "there" and are being recorded, but sometimes the just don't output when you tune the channel.
> 
> DirecTV knows about the issue, and they are working on correcting.
> The work aroudn you listed... is the same one I use (73 then back to the MPEG-4)
> 
> Normally this only happens when I first tune in the channel... I haven't lost the audio once I was there.


Exactly. Once the audio is working, it works.


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## smb3d

Earl Bonovich said:


> It's not your receiver.... there is just something Odd going on with the MPEG-4 DD audio streams.... They are "there" and are being recorded, but sometimes the just don't output when you tune the channel.
> 
> DirecTV knows about the issue, and they are working on correcting.
> The work aroudn you listed... is the same one I use (73 then back to the MPEG-4)
> 
> Normally this only happens when I first tune in the channel... I haven't lost the audio once I was there.


It does that on mine too. If you hit pause then play it will also fix it.

scott


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## greywolf

I just had that happen on MPEG2 recordings. Pause then play makes it work. FF or RWD makes it work too.


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## michael reinhart

Earl - what are the dimensions of the unit?


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## pappys

michael reinhart said:


> Earl - what are the dimensions of the unit?


That is in the first 10 pages of this thread


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## Earl Bonovich

michael reinhart said:


> Earl - what are the dimensions of the unit?





pappys said:


> That is in the first 10 pages of this thread


Page 13 actually

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=630240&postcount=317


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## Wolffpack

So would now be a time to put this "general discussion" thread to bed and start up individual discussions? Maybe the three topic threads we use on the R15 side along with the software version #s. No one is going to read 32 pages of posts, they will only post their question again.


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## davidord

smb3d said:


> It does that on mine too. If you hit pause then play it will also fix it.
> 
> scott


I tried the "pause then play" and that doesn't work with mine. I need to switch to an MPEG-2 HD channel first, and then switch to the MPEG-4 broadcast to guarantee sound on DD. This is even the case for the recorded content on the hard drive.


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## Earl Bonovich

davidord said:


> I tried the "pause then play" and that doesn't work with mine. I need to switch to an MPEG-2 HD channel first, and then switch to the MPEG-4 broadcast to guarantee sound on DD. This is even the case for the recorded content on the hard drive.


I do know they are working on correcting the issue....


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## Earl Bonovich

Wolffpack said:


> So would now be a time to put this "general discussion" thread to bed and start up individual discussions? Maybe the three topic threads we use on the R15 side along with the software version #s. No one is going to read 32 pages of posts, they will only post their question again.


I agree...

So with that said...

This discussion on the "Review" is now closed.
Let's continue in the base forum... feel free to link back to this thread.. .and continue any of the discussions..

Create new topics if there isn't one there... and basically... Forum usage as normal.


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