# HR34 & HR24 Different OTA Channel Lists?



## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

Here's a real mystery - Installed a new HR34 (F/W 4C9; SD GUI) along with a AM21N OTA adapter. Selected St. Louis, MO/E. St. Louis, IL "market" and HR34 IDed most (but not all) OTA channels. Next, installed a AM21N on a previously activated HR24 (F/W 57B; HD GUI) and selected the same "market". HOWEVER, the HR24 IDed a completely DIFFERENT list of OTA channels. The HR24 list is valid for this "market" but it omits a couple of the low-power channels listed in the HR34 list and includes a valid sub-channel not contained in the HR34 list.

Can anyone explain why two receivers would ID a completely different list of available OTA channels for a given market? Thanks!


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## TheFigurehead (Mar 29, 2009)

I am having the same issue. No answers so far...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2935426#post2935426


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## dettxw (Nov 21, 2007)

IIRC the HR34/AM21 combo may do a channel scan where the H2x/AM21 combo certainly does not, guide data is used.


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

dettxw said:


> IIRC the HR34/AM21 combo may do a channel scan where the H2x/AM21 combo certainly does not, guide data is used.


Understand potential H2x "issue" but my issue involves a HR34 and HR24 (i.e., both DVR/AM21N combos).


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

denpri said:


> Understand potential H2x "issue" but my issue involves a HR34 and HR24 (i.e., both DVR/AM21N combos).


He answered your question. There wasn't a H2X "issue".

The HR34 doesn't use a set list of OTA channels at this time. The H/HR2X series do.


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

TheFigurehead said:


> I am having the same issue. No answers so far...
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2935426#post2935426


Wow. I've got the "reverse" issue! My HR34 shows 5 more OTA channels & subs than the HR24 list while the HR24 lists one sub not included in the HR34 list. I wonder if the OTA guide data contains a "sub-code" for the Receiver ID. If not, I'm clueless like you are.

Bottom line - I understand DirecTV's desire/need to NOT keep adding new channel and sub-channel Guide Data in the national feed for each "Market" but I'd like to have the AM21 "scan" just like a regular ATSC TV and "enable" available channels (& subs) and simply add a "local" Guide entry that lists Channel/Sub Number along with a standard message (contained in the Receiver F/W) such as "Local HD channel or sub-channel in your Market area". This approach would also faciltate eliminating "Market" channels that don't have adequate signal strength AT the customer's AM21/antenna location.


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

Shades228 said:


> He answered your question. There wasn't a H2X "issue".
> 
> The HR34 doesn't use a set list of OTA channels at this time. The H/HR2X series do.


OK. Just checked Guide Data for the "additional" HR34 locals & they all say "Regular Schedule" while the "mutual" HR34/HR24 listed channels contain program information. If I understand your comment, the HR34/AM21 combo DOES scan & list all available channels & subs at the customer location while the H/HR2X/AM21 combo simply uses the "canned" data in the national stream. This would explain the "added" HR34 entries AND the absence of two entries for an OTA that is probably not available at my particular antenna/location combintation although it DOES appear on the HR24.

Thanks for the clarification!


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## dettxw (Nov 21, 2007)

Sorry, rushed a response from work. 
Meant HR2x. 
Hey, at least the HR34 scans at all, even though you have no control other than a custom channel list.


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

dettxw said:


> Sorry, rushed a response from work.
> Meant HR2x.
> Hey, at least the HR34 scans at all, even though you have no control other than a custom channel list.


I agree. Wonder if the H/HR2x F/W will ever be upgraded to "conform" to the HR34 method. I also agree it would be nice if a customer (or the F/W on a regular basis) could "rescan" and ID changes to sub-channels (and, in some cases, regular channels) without having to repeat the entire setup process. However, most customers probably don't need/want the AM21 & it's becoming a "niche" product. The only reason I added them is that I'll occasionally want to watch/record one of the sub-channels in my "market". Also, I notice the HR34 RVU functionality doesn't support OTA so I also have to wonder whether the AM21 will eventually disappear.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Does anyone know if DirecTV is considering adding HR34 style OTA scanning capability to the HR20 and HR21-HR24 models (hooked to an AM-21)?


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

I have no idea but it would seem they need to adopt a consistent "philosophy" on OTAs and I'd hope the HR34 approach will eventually be used on all OTA-capable receivers. One possible issue might be a lack of "hardware" in the older generation receivers but I hope it's just a F/W issue.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> Does anyone know if DirecTV is considering adding HR34 style OTA scanning capability to the HR20 and HR21-HR24 models (hooked to an AM-21)?


We've been asking for this ever since the HR20 (and later the AM21) came out so I doubt it will be added now (although I would still like to see it).


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## dettxw (Nov 21, 2007)

Curious that scanning capability showed up on the HR34 after being absent on the earlier models.
I'm not sure if it's more likely that they'll remove scanning from the HR34 or add it to the other DVRs. I wouldn't bet either way.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

bobnielsen said:


> We've been asking for this ever since the HR20 (and later the AM21) came out so I doubt it will be added now (although I would still like to see it).


But SOMETHING motivated DirecTV to go with a scanning approach with the HR34. I would like to hope it is a change in philosophy that they will make retroactive to the other units via firmware.


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## TheFigurehead (Mar 29, 2009)

Does anyone know if I can force my HR34 to use the list of OTA channels from the Primary and Secondary Zip Codes? I am missing about 5 - 10 channels on the HR34... which show up on my HR24.


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## dettxw (Nov 21, 2007)

TheFigurehead said:


> Does anyone know if I can force my HR34 to use the list of OTA channels from the Primary and Secondary Zip Codes? I am missing about 5 - 10 channels on the HR34... which show up on my HR24.


Excuse the stupid question, but does the HR24 tune the channels missing from the HR34 guide? Are these possibly weak or low power stations?


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## TheFigurehead (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes, the HR24 tunes the stations. As an example, our local PBS station is channel 47. The HR24 tunes 47.1, 47.2 and 47.3 (as well as the DirecTV provided local on 47). The HR34 does not see 47.1, 47.2 or 47.3... 

I noticed on the HR24 some of the OTA stations signal varies depending on the time of day... some stations tune in at night better than daytime. But it would be really nice to just have the station guide info available on the HR34, too.

I can try turning my antenna a bit and see if that makes any difference. Just takes a while to get through the initial Antenna Setup steps.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Does the HR34 allow for "manual" channel OTA setup (i.e. typing in a RF frequency to tune and if finds a channel, it remembers it, like most television can?)....or only automated scanning OTA setup?


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

tkrandall said:


> Does the HR34 allow for "manual" channel OTA setup (i.e. typing in a RF frequency to tune and if finds a channel, it remembers it, like most television can?)....or only automated scanning OTA setup?


The problem with allowing a customer/owner of an OTA ATSC-enabled device (e.g., TV, AM21/N, etc.) to simply enter an "RF frequency" is WHAT frequency would they enter? In the "good old days" of OTA NTSC/analog television, the "channel number" was identical to the actual RF frequency. For example, OTA NTSC/analog "Channel 2" corresponded to an RF frequency of 54-60 MHz and there was a consistent, fixed correlation between an "advertised" Channel No. and RF frequency no matter where a particular station was located in the United States.

With the advent & subsequent rollout of OTA ATSC/digital television, this "link" was broken! In the OTA ATSC/digital "world", Channel 2 could correspond to virtually ANY RF frequency in the current "universe" of OTA ATSC/digital broadcast frequencies. For example, in my location, St. Louis, MO, Channel 2 (KTVI) is now "physically" broadcast on RF channel 43 or 644-650 MHz. However, a "Channel 2" located in another metropolitan area could be "physically" broadcast on a completely different RF channel such as 39, 26, etc.

In the OTA ATSC/digital "world", all of this physical-to-virtual "translation" is handled by the ATSC tuner AND accompanying device software. I believe the issue DirecTV must now face, in a post-transition world, is IF AND HOW it wants to handle OTA channels in terms of Guide Data AND overall OTA ATSC support. Don't forget - ALL TV sets sold (i.e., advertised as capable of OTA reception) in the United States must now support a OTA ATSC/digital "RF input" in addition to any other inputs (e.g., HDMI). Furthermore, DirecTV is also supporting a far larger "universe" of HD locals via their satellite system than they did 4-5 years ago when the digital transition started. IMHO, I wouldn't be surprised if the HR34/H25 models are the last products to support an OTA ATSC "interface".


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

tkrandall said:


> Does the HR34 allow for "manual" channel OTA setup (i.e. typing in a RF frequency to tune and if finds a channel, it remembers it, like most television can?)....or only automated scanning OTA setup?


I'm also very interested in whether the HR34/AM21N combination will allow manual (real) channel entry and saving the resulting stations in memory. And if so, is programming data automatically added in for such station(s) afterwards, where the manually-added station(s) was/were not part of the AM21N's primary/secondary zip code entry method of memorizing stations?


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

TheFigurehead said:


> Yes, the HR24 tunes the stations. As an example, our local PBS station is channel 47. The HR24 tunes 47.1, 47.2 and 47.3 (as well as the DirecTV provided local on 47). The HR34 does not see 47.1, 47.2 or 47.3...
> 
> I noticed on the HR24 some of the OTA stations signal varies depending on the time of day... some stations tune in at night better than daytime. But it would be really nice to just have the station guide info available on the HR34, too.
> 
> I can try turning my antenna a bit and see if that makes any difference. Just takes a while to get through the initial Antenna Setup steps.


Noticed from one of your other posts that you're receiving stations from the Peoria, IL market. Your PBS station, WTVP, uses 47.1/47.2/47.3 as its virtual channels, but its REAL broadcast channel is 46 (46.1/46.2/46.3) - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTVP.

On your HR34/AM21 combination (that currently does not see your virtual PBS channel numbers on 47.1/47.2/47.3), and assuming that your antenna is properly oriented, what happens if you manually enter in the REAL channel numbers 46.1/46.2/46.3 with your DirecTV remote? Does the HR34/AM21 then actually detect that real channels are there, and add them to your memorized list of stations? If so, does it add them by their virtual channel numbers (e.g., 47.1/47.2/47.3)?

Also wasn't entirely sure whether you had the original AM21's, the newer AM21N's (with the matte finish) or a mixture, among your HR34 and HR24. Some posters have reported differences in how the AM21 and AM21N act on the issues of scanning and manual addition of OTA stations.


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## dakeeney (Aug 30, 2004)

I'm new to DTV and had the install done 1/24/12. I have the HR-24. Does it support OTA? I see no OTA connection.


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## GP245 (Aug 17, 2006)

By itself, no it doesn't.

For OTA you will have to buy a DirecTV AM21 or AM21N.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

denpri said:


> With the advent & subsequent rollout of OTA ATSC/digital television, this "link" was broken! In the OTA ATSC/digital "world", Channel 2 could correspond to virtually ANY RF frequency in the current "universe" of OTA ATSC/digital broadcast frequencies.


Understood, but it is not a "problem."

Example - Let's say you get a new HDTV and hook it up directly to an antenna. You do not do a auto scan/setup. You know your market has several stations you want it to "know of". You know the true RF frequency for them.

Let's say channel "2" is really RF19. and Channel "5" is really RF25. You type in 19 on your brand new TV, it automatically detects the ATSC feed and instantly remaps is to virtual channel 2.1 From now on when you type in 2 on your remote you will get 2.1, which is really RF19. Likewise, you type in 25 in the remote the first time, and the TV maps to 5.1 hence after picking up the station that first time. Auto scanning feature essentially do this behind the scenes, tuning each true RF channel, and then virtually mapping any channels it finds from there.


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## TheFigurehead (Mar 29, 2009)

Spent some time on this last night. Not very happy with the results. I re-aimed my antenna (was facing mostly south) to face west. Then re-ran the initial antenna setup on the HR34. Ended up losing more channels after it was completed. Still did not pick up any of the WTVP OTA signals. I guess I'll just aim the antenna south again... Seems to me the method the HR24 uses is better than the 'new' scanning feature the HR34 uses. At least in my case.

FWIW, I am using the older AM21. And I did have to RBR after re-running the antenna setup... HR34 was crazy unresponsive.

After having the HR34 for a few weeks now... I gotta say there is really only 2 features (for me) that make it better than the other HR models:

1) 5 tuners 
2) extra storage

In my opinion, the HR34 is no faster than the HR24 (it might actually be slower), OTA options inferior on the HR34, I hardly ever use PIP, I don't use RVU, I don't care about series link limit, I miss having an optical digital audio output.

All that said, the 5 tuners and 1TB hard drive alone make it worth the money I spent.



gcd0865 said:


> Noticed from one of your other posts that you're receiving stations from the Peoria, IL market. Your PBS station, WTVP, uses 47.1/47.2/47.3 as its virtual channels, but its REAL broadcast channel is 46 (46.1/46.2/46.3) - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTVP.
> 
> On your HR34/AM21 combination (that currently does not see your virtual PBS channel numbers on 47.1/47.2/47.3), and assuming that your antenna is properly oriented, what happens if you manually enter in the REAL channel numbers 46.1/46.2/46.3 with your DirecTV remote? Does the HR34/AM21 then actually detect that real channels are there, and add them to your memorized list of stations? If so, does it add them by their virtual channel numbers (e.g., 47.1/47.2/47.3)?
> 
> Also wasn't entirely sure whether you had the original AM21's, the newer AM21N's (with the matte finish) or a mixture, among your HR34 and HR24. Some posters have reported differences in how the AM21 and AM21N act on the issues of scanning and manual addition of OTA stations.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

denpri said:


> The problem with allowing a customer/owner of an OTA ATSC-enabled device (e.g., TV, AM21/N, etc.) to simply enter an "RF frequency" is WHAT frequency would they enter? In the "good old days" of OTA NTSC/analog television, the "channel number" was identical to the actual RF frequency. For example, OTA NTSC/analog "Channel 2" corresponded to an RF frequency of 54-60 MHz and there was a consistent, fixed correlation between an "advertised" Channel No. and RF frequency no matter where a particular station was located in the United States.
> 
> With the advent & subsequent rollout of OTA ATSC/digital television, this "link" was broken! In the OTA ATSC/digital "world", Channel 2 could correspond to virtually ANY RF frequency in the current "universe" of OTA ATSC/digital broadcast frequencies. For example, in my location, St. Louis, MO, Channel 2 (KTVI) is now "physically" broadcast on RF channel 43 or 644-650 MHz. However, a "Channel 2" located in another metropolitan area could be "physically" broadcast on a completely different RF channel such as 39, 26, etc.
> 
> In the OTA ATSC/digital "world", all of this physical-to-virtual "translation" is handled by the ATSC tuner AND accompanying device software. I believe the issue DirecTV must now face, in a post-transition world, is IF AND HOW it wants to handle OTA channels in terms of Guide Data AND overall OTA ATSC support. Don't forget - ALL TV sets sold (i.e., advertised as capable of OTA reception) in the United States must now support a OTA ATSC/digital "RF input" in addition to any other inputs (e.g., HDMI). Furthermore, DirecTV is also supporting a far larger "universe" of HD locals via their satellite system than they did 4-5 years ago when the digital transition started. IMHO, I wouldn't be surprised if the HR34/H25 models are the last products to support an OTA ATSC "interface".


Thanks for the handy if unnecessary but confusing tutorial, Captain Obvious, but it's not a problem, never was, and its not that complicated or revolutionary. Now here's mine.

"Channels" have always been arbitrary pointers to frequencies. A channel is a name, a label, and nothing more. Channel mapping (using one arbitrary name or label to refer to something previously dedicated to another arbitrary name or label) has been around since analog cable and C-band backyard dishes. Maybe longer. After all, selecting Ch 24 on an old C-band IRD remaps the frequency 4080 to Ch 24. Take that to the ultimate conclusion, and even in 1939 Ch 2 on broadcast was a remap from 55.25 MHz. OK, OK, that's not really a _RE_-map, its just a map.

But _dynamic_ remapping was available on cable way back in the day and on DBS the day it launched. The difference is that with something that you can change the mapping on, the STB needs a scorecard to keep up, and the solution to that is a database. If all the channels are the same everywhere, all you need is a static database accessed from every STB.

That becomes even more important when every market it different; you either need a larger static database that covers each market (conventional DVR remapping) or you need a dynamic database that can be rewritten by the user (conventional ATSC STB remapping). ATSC used the latter because every ATSC TV required the ability to read PSIP, and a local scan to write the local database was implied. DBS boxes typically used the former because they did not require PSIP, and they already had a legacy way of tapping into the Tribune database instead.

So its easy to see why each path developed differently; why add PSIP at extra cost if you don't need to?

But as LSI's improve, they start to become "one-size-fits-all" for economic reasons; for instance, its not unusual to find decoder chips that are the same in boxes for different purposes, where one vendor's box uses one subset of the available functions and another vendor uses a different subset. The DBS IRD and the cable STB have much more in common than they really need or use, and that is why.

It's unlikely that DTV is bucking their favorite trend: cost-cutting. It's only a guess, but I don't think that DTV added this capability because they felt like they needed to pay more for PSIP functionality; it is much more likely that the chips that made the most economic sense at the time this DVR was designed (and designed one-size-fits-all so they can sell the same chip to DTV, DISH, Sony and Vizio, for example) probably just coincidentally had PSIP functionality already on them, and probably even at a lower cost than the earlier-gen chips that didn't.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

TomCat said:


> ... But as LSI's improve, they start to become "one-size-fits-all" for economic reasons; for instance, its not unusual to find decoder chips that are the same in boxes for different purposes, where one vendor's box uses one subset of the available functions and another vendor uses a different subset. The DBS IRD and the cable STB have much more in common than they really need or use, and that is why.
> 
> It's unlikely that DTV is bucking their favorite trend: cost-cutting. It's only a guess, but I don't think that DTV added this capability because they felt like they needed to pay more for PSIP functionality; it is much more likely that the chips that made the most economic sense at the time this DVR was designed (and designed one-size-fits-all so they can sell the same chip to DTV, DISH, Sony and Vizio, for example) probably just coincidentally had PSIP functionality already on them, and probably even at a lower cost than the earlier-gen chips that didn't.


I like the entertaining read on the history lesson of channel mapping TomCat, but on your speculation at the end here I don't see how the HR34 is actually using such a PSIP capability if it's chips indeed have it. The HR34 appears to be doing an off-air scan and then comparing the results with the downloaded local channel database. For the channels that match, guide data is listed for them.

Otherwise its merely time blocks labeled "Regular Schedule" for the OTA channels with no information in the database on them. I think Dish receivers handle their OTA line-up in a similar fashion.

This is what leads me to believe, and gives me hope, :sure: its only a firmware difference on the HR34 to enable OTA scanning which the earlier receivers may be compatible with as well should DIRECTV choose to give it to us of course.


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

TheFigurehead:

Did you manually enter in the REAL channel numbers 46.1/46.2/46.3 with your DirecTV remote during your last test of your AM21/HR34 to try to add your WTVP virtual 47.1/47.2/47.3 manually into memory, or did you only run the automatic scan-type setup? Wasn't entirely sure about that part from your last post.

Denpri:

Since you have the AM21N with your HR34, while TheFigurehead has an AM21 + HR34, do you happen to know of any definitely-receivable OTA station(s) in your area that are not currently in your memorized station listing (maybe a low-power or religious station), such that you could enter in the REAL channel number(s) with your DirecTV remote to see if the AM21N/HR34 combination can manually add a previously non-listed station? Some posters have reported differences in how the AM21 and AM21N act, and if TheFigurehead cannot add his PBS station 47.1 by entering the real channel number 46.1 into his AM21/HR34 combination, but the manual entry by real channel number does work for your AM21N/HR34 combination, then we will have confirmed that the AM21 and AM21N do indeed act differently for manual station entry with the HR34's.

St. Louis market stations are listed here - http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=28. Clicking on "Expand/Contract All" shows the "Display" (virtual) and "Physical" (real) channel numbers for each station.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Has anyone tried setting up their HR24 or HR34 for sat service first without the antenna feed. Then attaching the antenna and disconnecting the sat feed, and trying an OTA setup that way? I wonder what the boxes would do in that scenario without any access to a database via the sat cable.


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## TheFigurehead (Mar 29, 2009)

gcd0865 said:


> TheFigurehead:
> 
> Did you manually enter in the REAL channel numbers 46.1/46.2/46.3 with your DirecTV remote during your last test of your AM21/HR34 to try to add your WTVP virtual 47.1/47.2/47.3 manually into memory, or did you only run the automatic scan-type setup? Wasn't entirely sure about that part from your last post.


I don't think that there is a way to manually enter any channels or sub-channels into the HR34 guide. I get the "Channel Not Available" text on the screen if I hit 46.1, 46.2 or 46.3. So I am thinking the receiver first looks up potential channels in the zipcodes and then does an actual signal scan... and then only adding channel info to your guide if a signal is found. Again, I am just making a guess about this...


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## gcd0865 (Jul 23, 2008)

TheFigurehead said:


> I don't think that there is a way to manually enter any channels or sub-channels into the HR34 guide. I get the "Channel Not Available" text on the screen if I hit 46.1, 46.2 or 46.3. So I am thinking the receiver first looks up potential channels in the zipcodes and then does an actual signal scan... and then only adding channel info to your guide if a signal is found. Again, I am just making a guess about this...


Ah, okay. So now we know for sure that the AM21/HR34 combination will not permit manual addition of stations into memory by entering in their real channel numbers, in the way that many tv tuners permit. Perhaps we'll find out if the AM21N/HR34 combination acts differently.


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

gcd0865 said:


> Ah, okay. So now we know for sure that the AM21/HR34 combination will not permit manual addition of stations into memory by entering in their real channel numbers, in the way that many tv tuners permit. Perhaps we'll find out if the AM21N/HR34 combination acts differently.


Using my HR34/AM21N combination, just tried to tune to an OTA channel that wasn't listed in the Guide & it did NOT work. Tried both "virtual" and "RF" channel numbers (and subs). I've come to the following conclusions (i.e., "your mileage may vary"):

The HR34/AM21N combination "logic" STARTS with the OTA channel Guide data. It then performs a FULL (i.e., ignores Guide data) scan of all OTA RF channels and does the following:
a) DELETES Guide data (including subs) for any OTA RF channels it doesn't "see".
b) ADDS a FIXED Guide entry ("Regular Schedule") for BOTH additional RF channel-specific subs that aren't contained in the satellite feed AND all additional OTA RF channels (e.g., low power) that don't have any Guide data.

Although I couldn't manually add an OTA RF channel, I did notice that if I perform a "Reset" followed by another "Initial Setup", it does a rescan and will add/delete Guide data as appropriate. In my case, one OTA channel is very marginal and it added (or deleted) Guide data depending on signal strength.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

denpri said:


> b) ADDS a FIXED Guide entry ("Regular Schedule") for BOTH additional RF channel-specific subs that aren't contained in the satellite feed AND all additional OTA RF channels (e.g., low power) that don't have any Guide data ...


Question;

Do the guide data-less channels labeled as "Regular Schedule" at least follow the actual time duration of the shows or are they simply fixed length blocks possibly 1 hour long or some other?


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

HoTat2 said:


> Question;
> 
> Do the guide data-less channels labeled as "Regular Schedule" at least follow the actual time duration of the shows or are they simply fixed length blocks possibly 1 hour long or some other?


Looks like a "perpetual" listing of "Regular Schedule" without regard to any program or channel-specific criteria.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

denpri said:


> Looks like a "perpetual" listing of "Regular Schedule" without regard to any program or channel-specific criteria.


I see;

No problem setting up any manual recordings for those channels though?


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## denpri (Aug 9, 2009)

HoTat2 said:


> No problem setting up any manual recordings for those channels though?


Manual recording for these channels (& subs) works fine.


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