# T-Mobile’s TVision Relaunch.....



## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

In other news......T-Mobile's TVision service, direct competitor to AT&T TV, appears to be starting its rollout Nov 1 to its wireless customers first:

T-Mobile refocuses TVision with Android TV device and new plans

Cut the cord with TVision by T-Mobile

TVision Hub info:
Overview: TVision HUB

















Intro video:
Live Stream the Latest News & Announcements | T-Mobile


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

Dongle specs are identical to TiVo Stream 4K dongle and is made by the same manufacture SEI Robotics.

You have the option to get one of the "Live" packages only, "Vibe" only or both. Both package groups will allow you to subscribe to premiums dubbed "TVision Channels."

Rollout - T-Mobile Customers November 1, 2020 / Legacy Sprint - Late November 2020 / Non-T-Mobile Customers - 2021

Missing CBS nationwide, most pro sports, Legacy CBS cable properties, A+E Networks, Pac-12 Network and all RSNs except for NBC Regional Sports Networks.

So... if you have to have Sinclair RSNs but do not care/want/need NFL Network & NFL RedZone you can get TVision Vibe for just $10/mo to fill in the channel gaps AT&T TV Now Max lacks except for A+E Networks.


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## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

techguy88 said:


> Dongle specs are identical to TiVo Stream 4K dongle and is made by the same manufacture SEI Robotics.
> 
> You have the option to get one of the "Live" packages only, "Vibe" only or both. Both package groups will allow you to subscribe to premiums dubbed "TVision Channels."
> 
> ...


So it looks like if you sign up for live zone at $60 per month plus vibe at an extra $10 a month then you'll get all the channels. I was thinking that vibe was a totally separate service? Will they all integrate into the same guide and app?


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

harperhometheater said:


> So it looks like if you sign up for live zone at $60 per month plus vibe at an extra $10 a month then you'll get all the channels. I was thinking that vibe was a totally separate service? Will they all integrate into the same guide and app?


Vibe, Live & Channels are all housed within the T-Vision app. They demoed this briefly during the 18 minute video starting at 10:30 in.

A screen within the TVision app showing "Live", "Vibe" and the TVision Channels add-ons (Showtime, Starz, Epix.)










The Guide will have channel numbers akin to AT&T TV device. In fact the Guide layout does remind me a little of AT&T TV/TV Now except Blue was replaced with Magenta. 


















The Android TV Home Screen is slightly modified to fit into the style of the TVision app (again more Magenta ) Although I do like it lol.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

Something to note here as well the Starz, Showtime & Epix add-ons from TVision include all their multi-plex channels. Starz has all Starz & Starz Encore channels, Showtime has all the Showtime branded channels. Both of those come with East/West feeds of those channels. Epix includes the East feeds of all 4 Epix channels (including Epix Drive-In.)

So someone potentially coming from Hulu + Live TV for their RSNs can get the majority of channels from Hulu + Live TV plus more (like the Viacom channels, Cinemax & HBO Max via AT&T TV Now Max at $80/mo) and TVision Vibe can fill in the AMC & Discovery gaps for an extra $10/mo. In total $90/mo for both. (AT&T really should add a WatchTV / Vibe style add-on to AT&T TV Now.)


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Pretty interesting.

In my case I could do Vibe for the entertainment stuff for the bulk of a year, kick it up during football season and use my OTA DVR for my locals and save significant money.
Of course there would be my usuals like Hulu, Netflix and so forth of ones I kick on and off to binge watch. And Amazon Prime which for me is basically a freebie as I would have it regardless of video.
I wonder if they will have an app for the usual suspects in streaming boxes?


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

lparsons21 said:


> I wonder if they will have an app for the usual suspects in streaming boxes?


Apple TV, Android TV/Google TV & Amazon Fire TV will be supported. No Roku support. In one of the videos they mentioned doing a year of Apple TV+ and having a rebate program set up so an Apple TV 4K is only $99 after rebate.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

Judging by that guide they will have mostly east feeds since their HQ is on the Pacific Coast and CNN's primetime schedule is showing Anderson Cooper at 5PM and Cuomo at 6PM which would translate to 8 and 9 PM ET


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

How many services are we going to end up with before someone allows you to pick 10 channels for $20 or something like that? These are no different than cable, except the overhead of unlimited internet service to use them.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

Davenlr said:


> How many services are we going to end up with before someone allows you to pick 10 channels for $20 or something like that? These are no different than cable, except the overhead of unlimited internet service to use them.


Well all the current live OTT services need to die and at least 1,000 more need to take their place in the wasteland of pay television. Once all possible bridges have been burned and the consumer has completely moved on then as a last stretch attempt they will let you pick 8-10 channels for $20/mo but they will maximize this by having DVR & on demand for those 8-10 channels cost $10 more/mo (I'm joking but seriously this is a possible scenario.)


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

The first traditional provider to be able to get a contract like that will cause a wave of change for all avenues. I don’t see it coming to streamers before cable and sat. Simple reason I say this is because most companies are going to offer their channels directly and therefor see no need to allow other providers to separate out their channels and mix and match them with competitors. 

Even though HBO has show this works just fine for 30 years...

There is a chance that sports channels from Sinclair may have this happen first. And if that’s the case everyone will follow as contracts where to get renewed. 

I’ve been wondering if maybe that’s why Sinclair is also letting all their station deals fall apart. The want to sell direct and can’t till they have leverage against all providers by not having their stations on most of the services.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> I've been wondering if maybe that's why Sinclair is also letting all their station deals fall apart. The want to sell direct and can't till they have leverage against all providers by not having their stations on most of the services.


I don't think it is a matter of "letting" the deals fall apart. Sinclair over-extended themselves financially and they're asking ridiculous rates to try to recover from it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "selling direct" as they do that with the MVPDs already. Carriage is a deal that the station owners strike, not the networks. Broadcasters arguably don't have the luxury of going direct where "serving the public interest" is a criterion and I'm pretty sure the networks wouldn't stand for them not "covering" their DMAs.


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## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

techguy88 said:


> Vibe, Live & Channels are all housed within the T-Vision app. They demoed this briefly during the 18 minute video starting at 10:30 in.
> 
> A screen within the TVision app showing "Live", "Vibe" and the TVision Channels add-ons (Showtime, Starz, Epix.)
> 
> ...


So it appears this isn't Android Operator Tier and that TVision is just an app, which happens to have a dedicated "power" button to open it when needed. This is the same as TiVo Stream 4K.

This makes it quite different than AT&T TV, which opens with live tv embedded in the background of the main menu giving it a more traditional cable or satellite feel in operation.

Is there a away to emulate the AT&T TV/Operator Tier feel and functions on a non-operator tier Android device? Custom skin maybe?



Davenlr said:


> How many services are we going to end up with before someone allows you to pick 10 channels for $20 or something like that? These are no different than cable, except the overhead of unlimited internet service to use them.


Spectrum already does this with their TV Stream option available to internet only customers, if you happen to be in one of their service areas of course.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "selling direct" as they do that with the MVPDs already.


Selling direct to the viewer - not to an intermediary.



harsh said:


> Broadcasters arguably don't have the luxury of going direct where "serving the public interest" is a criterion and I'm pretty sure the networks wouldn't stand for them not "covering" their DMAs.


The networks get their affiliation fee. For most markets that is enough to satisfy the network. If a station refused carriage across the board (no cable, satellite or other carriage) their network might get upset since the network gets a portion of the carriage fees. But having a carriage dispute with one or two carriers doesn't hurt too much. Even in the O&O markets the networks let their stations be pulled in disputes knowing that they will eventually be restored.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

harperhometheater said:


> So it appears this isn't Android Operator Tier and that TVision is just an app, which happens to have a dedicated "power" button to open it when needed. This is the same as TiVo Stream 4K.


T-Mobile is using the Operator Tier. Look at the 4th picture they are using a custom overlay for the home screen to fit their brand and features they want to emphasis. Operator Tier allows operators like TiVo and Dish to disable the uninstall option for the Sling TV app and their custom apps. On TiVo Stream 4K the Operator Tier is used to hardlock the TiVo Stream app to the app favorite row and to lock the TiVo Stream channel to the first position on the home screen.



harperhometheater said:


> Is there a away to emulate the AT&T TV/Operator Tier feel and functions on a non-operator tier Android device? Custom skin maybe?


With the Android TV Operator Tier it is up to the operator on how much customization they want. If AT&T can do it then any operator can do it.

However not many want to do what AT&T did since it drives up development costs. It also significantly delays AT&T's ability to push out Android TV OS upgrades. This is why the Android mobile phone operators stopped (or didn't even attempt) fully customized Android GUIs for their devices. Most now just employ a simple overlay so they can push out Android OS upgrades on a regular basis.

T-Mobile's approach with the TVision Hub appears they have gone for more of an overlay route. From what they revealed they prioritized ease of use, affordability and performance. Since the TiVo Stream 4K is a powerful and affordable device and the TVision Hub is using the same SoC, RAM and Memory then the Hub should be comparable. The overlay GUI shouldn't impact performance since the TVision app will only be active when used (just like the TiVo Stream app.)

A lot of AT&T's issues with the AT&T TV device when using different apps is the AT&T TV app is always on in either active or standby mode since it also acts as the Home Screen launcher. Having a standalone home screen similar to Android TV's home screen means the TVision app isn't doing all the heavy work. It also allows the TVision app to be completely closed when not in use thereby not using system resources when using another app like Netflix, Hulu, HBO Max, etc.

T-Mobile has another benefit here. They just need 1 TVision app for all Android TV devices only their GU overlay is exclusive to their device. AT&T's approach means they need to develop a separate version of the AT&T TV app for other Android TV devices while keeping the heavily modified version exclusive to the AT&T TV device (if they ever want to expand AT&T TV to other Android TV devices.)



harperhometheater said:


> Spectrum already does this with their TV Stream option available to internet only customers, if you happen to be in one of their service areas of course.


Spectrum is working within the confines of their existing agreements and for Spectrum this more a ploy to keep people within their eco-system instead of cutting Spectrum completely out. Also Spectrum doesn't have their own streaming device (as far as I know) they resell Apple TV 4K devices on installments.


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## dmspen (Dec 1, 2006)

One thing to note is TVision is HD minimum with a number of 4K channels. Very few IPTV services offer HD, except as 720p. T-Mobile is evidently looking to use future 5G connectivity to broadcast 4k everywhere, at least according to an article on Tom's Hardware. They are emulating cable services but via broadband.
No one has mentioned the most important aspect of TVision - they carry the Hallmark Channels!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Selling direct to the viewer - not to an intermediary.


It would be interesting to see a broadcast implementation of how this might work. Conditional access has always been a part of digital TV but few have ever used it and I can't recall of any tuners or TVs that support it.


James Long said:


> If a station refused carriage across the board (no cable, satellite or other carriage) their network might get upset since the network gets a portion of the carriage fees.


If a local station stops serving the public interest with their TV channel, the FCC can pull their license. That seems like letting the air out of the balloon if the station hopes to attract advertisers.

Imagine how much the broadcaster would have to collect in fees to replace the advertising dollars and given the nature of television seasons, you can guess what the off-season would be like.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

harsh said:


> It would be interesting to see a broadcast implementation of how this might work. Conditional access has always been a part of digital TV but few have ever used it and I can't recall of any tuners or TVs that support it.


Conditional access has been done on OTA and is still being done in some markets. The companies providing service are providing their own tuners. But that has nothing to do with Sinclair or any other content provider selling their content direct to consumers. OTA is not the only path in to people's homes.



harsh said:


> If a local station stops serving the public interest with their TV channel, the FCC can pull their license.


The bar for "serving the public" is very low. Has any station ever lost their license as long as they were still transmitting something? There is a local in my market that meets the FCC minimums and is not carried on DISH or DIRECTV. Allowing your station to be retransmitted is NOT REQUIRED by the FCC.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

techguy88 said:


> (AT&T really should add a WatchTV / Vibe style add-on to AT&T TV Now.)


Yeah, the Plus and Max packages on AT&T TV Now (which are, for some reason, also available via AT&T TV and DirecTV) have always lacked channels from A+E, AMC and Discovery. I always thought we'd either see some/all those missing nets added to Plus and Max and/or see them available via an optional add-on channel pack.

If TVision can offer Vibe as a standalone $10 package, with nets from AMC, Discovery, Viacom and Hallmark, it seems like AT&T (which has to have far greater pricing power) could offering a $10 add-on package with the most popular channels from AMC, Discovery and A&E. (AT&T's Plus and Max already contain some channels from Hallmark and Viacom, although maybe the missing ones, like Hallmark M&M could be in the $10 add-on.)

Although, at this point, I'm not sure if AT&T cares enough about AT&T TV Now to bother doing something like that. They don't actively market it any more and it's just sort of languishing. My guess is that it dies completely once HBO Max begins offering a live channel add-on package(s) next year.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

techguy88 said:


> With the Android TV Operator Tier it is up to the operator on how much customization they want. If AT&T can do it then any operator can do it.
> 
> However not many want to do what AT&T did since it drives up development costs. It also significantly delays AT&T's ability to push out Android TV OS upgrades. This is why the Android mobile phone operators stopped (or didn't even attempt) fully customized Android GUIs for their devices. Most now just employ a simple overlay so they can push out Android OS upgrades on a regular basis.
> 
> T-Mobile's approach with the TVision Hub appears they have gone for more of an overlay route.


Yes, there are different levels of home screen UI customization that can be done under Android TV Operator Tier. AT&T TV and TiVo (in the software they deploy in the STBs for their IPTV partners, like RCN) have a fully customized home screen that doesn't look like the standard Android TV home screen at all. Meanwhile, the home screens for the devices sold by Sling (AirTV Mini) and TVision (TVision Hub) are just lightly customized versions of the same home screen you see on other retail Android TV devices like the Nvidia Shield TV and TiVo Stream 4K.

I don't know but I wonder if Google doesn't allow as much customization for Android TV Operator Tier devices that are sold at retail for use with OTT services (like the TVision Hub) as they allow for devices that aren't sold at retail but only provided directly by the pay TV operator to their customers, as is the case with the AT&T TV box.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Yeah, the Plus and Max packages on AT&T TV Now (which are, for some reason, also available via AT&T TV and DirecTV) have always lacked channels from A+E, AMC and Discovery. I always thought we'd either see some/all those missing nets added to Plus and Max and/or see them available via an optional add-on channel pack.
> 
> If TVision can offer Vibe as a standalone $10 package, with nets from AMC, Discovery, Viacom and Hallmark, it seems like AT&T (which has to have far greater pricing power) could offering a $10 add-on package with the most popular channels from AMC, Discovery and A&E. (AT&T's Plus and Max already contain some channels from Hallmark and Viacom, although maybe the missing ones, like Hallmark M&M could be in the $10 add-on.)
> 
> Although, at this point, I'm not sure if AT&T cares enough about AT&T TV Now to bother doing something like that. They don't actively market it any more and it's just sort of languishing. My guess is that it dies completely once HBO Max begins offering a live channel add-on package(s) next year.


AT&T TV Now customers can subscribe to the Movies Extra Pack for $5/mo to get Hallmark Drama, Hallmark Movies & Mysteries, MTV Live, Smithsonian Channel, HDNet Movies, MGM HD, Shorts HD and Crime & Investigation (ironically an A+E Network ). If you get Movies Extra Pack on D* you also get Sony Movie Channel (this is not available on AT&T TV / TV Now.)



NashGuy said:


> Yes, there are different levels of home screen UI customization that can be done under Android TV Operator Tier. AT&T TV and TiVo (in the software they deploy in the STBs for their IPTV partners, like RCN) have a fully customized home screen that doesn't look like the standard Android TV home screen at all. Meanwhile, the home screens for the devices sold by Sling (AirTV Mini) and TVision (TVision Hub) are just lightly customized versions of the same home screen you see on other retail Android TV devices like the Nvidia Shield TV and TiVo Stream 4K.
> 
> I don't know but I wonder if Google doesn't allow as much customization for Android TV Operator Tier devices that are sold at retail for use with OTT services (like the TVision Hub) as they allow for devices that aren't sold at retail but only provided directly by the pay TV operator to their customers, as is the case with the AT&T TV box.


Only the TiVo Stream 4K runs Android TV and it is a lightly customized variant. The customized/unified TiVo GUI is actually an exclusive app called TiVo Stream. The Silver TiVo button on the remote will open this app.

TiVo's standalone hardware for OTA and cable users along with the cable operator branded TiVo set-top-boxes use a proprietary OS which require apps to be developed specifically for it. The actual TiVo hardware using the proprietary OS lacks the new apps like Disney+, HBO Max & Peacock. It used to carry HBO Now which was updated along with Amazon & Roku to just "HBO". HBO Go was removed after it was discontinued.

T-Mobile & Dish most likely want the devices to be usable if the end user decides to cancel their TV service. AT&T on the other hand initially had Osprey locked to where you have to have AT&T TV or TV Now. Recently AT&T changed that and now there is a basic blue screen that lets you access your apps or the device settings when your account is inactive.


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## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

techguy88 said:


> T-Mobile is using the Operator Tier. Look at the 4th picture they are using a custom overlay for the home screen to fit their brand and features they want to emphasis. Operator Tier allows operators like TiVo and Dish to disable the uninstall option for the Sling TV app and their custom apps. *On TiVo Stream 4K the Operator Tier is used to hardlock the TiVo Stream app to the app favorite row and to lock the TiVo Stream channel to the first position on the home screen.*
> 
> With the Android TV Operator Tier it is up to the operator on how much customization they want. If AT&T can do it then any operator can do it.
> 
> ...





NashGuy said:


> Yes, there are different levels of home screen UI customization that can be done under Android TV Operator Tier. AT&T TV and TiVo (in the software they deploy in the STBs for their IPTV partners, like RCN) have a fully customized home screen that doesn't look like the standard Android TV home screen at all. *Meanwhile, the home screens for the devices sold by Sling (AirTV Mini) and TVision (TVision Hub) are just lightly customized versions of the same home screen you see on other retail Android TV devices like the Nvidia Shield TV and TiVo Stream 4K.*
> 
> I don't know but I wonder if Google doesn't allow as much customization for Android TV Operator Tier devices that are sold at retail for use with OTT services (like the TVision Hub) as they allow for devices that aren't sold at retail but only provided directly by the pay TV operator to their customers, as is the case with the AT&T TV box.


OK, so which is it? Techguy says it's Operator Tier and NashGuy (dang, there's a lot of "guys" around here, haha!) says it's not.....I think.

NashGuy and others were adamant that the TS4K wasn't and couldn't be Operator Tier because TiVo wasn't an MSO, if I recall reading prior comments correctly?

What gives? Are these just a WAG (Wild A$$ Guess) or is there any proof that can be presented on who's actually using what?


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

harperhometheater said:


> OK, so which is it? Techguy says it's Operator Tier and NashGuy (dang, there's a lot of "guys" around here, haha!) says it's not.....I think.
> 
> NashGuy and others were adamant that the TS4K wasn't and couldn't be Operator Tier because TiVo wasn't an MSO, if I recall reading prior comments correctly?
> 
> What gives? Are these just a WAG (Wild A$$ Guess) or is there any proof that can be presented on who's actually using what?


Stock Android TV devices are all similar to each other using the default Android TV Launcher (home screen). These devices comes with default Google apps and a few pre-loaded apps from the device operator that can't be uninstalled (but can be disabled.)

The thing here is the end user (consumer) has complete control over the home screen (no apps locked to the favorites row or app channels locked.) Google Assistant works in its default settings and doesn't prioritize one app over another. You may notice minor differences in their settings menus since some device manufactures can customize this to highlight their unique features. These devices do not require an account from their operator to activate the Android TV device (a big key difference here.) 

The *Nvidia Shield TV* product line is an example of the stock Android TV experience that is slightly customized. Nvidia pre-loads the *Nvidia Games* app onto the device and you can't uninstall it (only disable it.) However under standard Android TV certification Nvidia can't lock this app to the home screen. Updates, security patches and OS updates are delivered via the Shield Experience setup which only has modified the settings and gave Shield Accessories (Shield Remote & Shield Gamepad) their own setting in the menu. 2019 Shield TV devices have another settings option for the AI Upscaler. 
The *Xiaomi Mi Box *product line is another example of standard Android TV certification. 
The *Android TV Operator Tier* allows the device operator to customize the Android TV OS in ways not allowed under standard Android TV certification. This is *primarily* meant to be used by MSO/MVPD/vMVPDs who want their own device but use the Android TV experience. However this is not exclusive to MSOs.

Key things an device operator can do with the Operator Tier vs standard certification:

*In addition to using a Google account with the device, the operator can require the user to have an account with the operator to use the device.* 
*Osprey *(aka AT&T TV device) must be signed in to an AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now account in order to function. 
*TiVo Stream 4K* requires you to activate the dongle with a TiVo account just like their traditional hardware. 

*Google Assistant can be modified work with specific features of the operator and prioritize their solutions as the first result when searching for content.*
With *Osprey* you can use Google Assistant to go to different channels by saying "*Tune to channel five hundred and one*" which will take you to HBO East. If you say something like "Show me It: Chapter 2" it will pull up _It: Chapter 2_ and show *AT&T TV* as the first option followed by HBO Max and Google Play Movies & TV. 
Searching for movies and TV shows on the *TiVo Stream 4K* will prioritize the *TiVo Stream app* in all cases. In some instances it will show the TiVo Stream app as the only option. 

*The Android TV Launcher can be customized to any degree by the device operator. It can also be removed entirely and replaced with a custom Launcher by the device operator.*
This article demonstrates how a device operator can customize the the stock Android TV Launcher to create a hybrid approach. The device operator can brand the stock Launcher with their logo and keep all the features of the stock Launcher. The device operator can add a new menu on stock Launcher essentially integrating their features into the main UI to create profiles, have an integrated TV Guide, VOD and DVR options that are common on Pay-TV set-top-boxes.
If you read that article then compare the screenshots I took from the TVision announcement video you will notice the *TVision Hub* has customized the Android TV Launcher in a similar way to the article above:
T-Mobile has added the *TVision *branding to the Launcher on the top left. 
On the top right you see a small menu with options like "*Guide*" and "*DVR*" along with the standard "Google Assistant", "Notifications", and "Settings" options.

The *TiVo Stream 4K* is an example of a light customization approach essentially keeping the experience the same as other Android TV devices except in the following:
The TiVo Stream app is placed as the first app on the favorites row and is locked there by TiVo. Stream is also locked to the first position on the app channels segment and can't be removed/moved via regular methods.

The *Verizon Stream* Android TV box has the lightest customization. 
They just added a Verizon branded app channel to the default Android TV Launcher with curated content. When you click on a program from the Verizon app channel it will open up YouTube TV. 

AT&T however has taken customization to the extreme by completely removing the default Android TV launcher from *Osprey*. 
Instead the version of the AT&T TV app Osprey uses is also its Launcher/home screen. 
In a post-release update AT&T added a bare bones secondary home screen in the event you cancel AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now so you can still use your apps and settings menu on the device. 


Dish's *AirTV Mini* is also using the Operator Tier. A free or paid Sling TV account is required to use the device. It has a customized Sing TV experience so the "Sling TV on AirTV Mini" app acts as the default launcher. So far similar to AT&T's approach for Osprey.

The "My TV" tab on the Sling TV for AirTV Mini is customized specifically for this device as it has a Netflix row for direct access. At the bottom it has custom options like "Apps", "Sling TV Settings" and "Device Settings."
This is where the *AirTV Mini* is different from *Osprey*. When you select the "Apps" button from My TV tab on Sling the device will then send you to the standard Android TV Launcher/Home Screen. It is customized to put the "Sling TV on AirTV Mini" app as the first option on the favorites bar and a special Sling TV row has been added to the apps channel segment. 
One thing that device operators of *standard Android TV*,* Android TV Operator Tier* and the new *Chromecast with Google TV *have is they can't block the consumer from downloading a specific app from the Google Play Store even if it is a competitor app. So you can still download things like Sling TV, fuboTV, Philo, YouTube TV, TVision, Dish Anywhere, etc. to things like the new Chromecast with Google TV, AT&T TV device, AirTV Mini and even the upcoming TVision Hub.

App developers however can restrict which Android TV (and future Google TV) devices can use their app. Hulu will restrict an app from a device when technical issues arise for that specific device. Amazon & Netflix restricts their apps in order to negotiate directly with the device operator. This is why there are gaps on which Android TV device has Netflix and Prime Video and why some (like AirTV Mini, Mi Box S) will initially launch without them.

Most other apps (Hulu, Disney+, HBO Max, Peacock, etc.) usually just negotiate with Google for the Google Play Store carriage on all Android TV/Google TV devices that can support the app. The only case I know of where HBO restricted their apps from an Android TV device was Osprey. It was having technical issues with the legacy HBO Now & HBO Go apps. They resolved the technical issues with HBO Max which is how Osprey got that app at launch.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

To go along with my post above here is a comparision of both the Stock Android TV Launcher compared to the TVision Hub Launcher that was shown off in the TVision video. Notice the placement of Google Assistant, the omission of the clock on TVision Hub and the additions of things like "Guide" and "DVR" on TVision Hub. Only the Operator Tier can modify the launcher in this way.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

James Long said:


> Conditional access has been done on OTA and is still being done in some markets. The companies providing service are providing their own tuners. But that has nothing to do with Sinclair or any other content provider selling their content direct to consumers. OTA is not the only path in to people's homes.


I think some of this comes down to what Sinclair would be selling. If they were competing head-to-head with services like CBSAA, I'm thinking CBS might balk. Sinclair doesn't "own" a lot of what they're currently delivering and what they do own seems to be not surviving many tests of merchantability.


> There is a local in my market that meets the FCC minimums and is not carried on DISH or DIRECTV.


They may not have gone the "must carry" route.


> Allowing your station to be retransmitted is NOT REQUIRED by the FCC.


Certainly not, but given the low penetration of OTA, it would be suicide for content that is costly.

There is a big picture here and the broadcaster has multiple entities that they need to keep happy. The FCC, the advertisers and the viewers have to all be satisfied at some level, not just one or the other. Rest assured that the bar for advertisers and viewers isn't remarkably low.

Sinclair already has an OTT product that doesn't seem to garner much attention and turning it into some sort of pay service isn't likely to magically transform it.


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## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

techguy88 said:


> Stock Android TV devices are all similar to each other using the default Android TV Launcher (home screen). These devices comes with default Google apps and a few pre-loaded apps from the device operator that can't be uninstalled (but can be disabled.)
> 
> The thing here is the end user (consumer) has complete control over the home screen (no apps locked to the favorites row or app channels locked.) Google Assistant works in its default settings and doesn't prioritize one app over another. You may notice minor differences in their settings menus since some device manufactures can customize this to highlight their unique features. These devices do not require an account from their operator to activate the Android TV device (a big key difference here.)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed reply. This flies in the face of what's been said here and elsewhere regarding whether the TiVo Stream 4K used Operator Tier and whether TiVo was allowed to use it since they weren't an MSO. Most if not all said it didn't since it was using "just an app", unlike the Osprey which took over the home screen and changed it completely.



techguy88 said:


> ......One thing that device operators of *standard Android TV*,* Android TV Operator Tier* and the new *Chromecast with Google TV *have is they can't block the consumer from downloading a specific app from the Google Play Store even if it is a competitor app. So you can still download things like Sling TV, fuboTV, Philo, YouTube TV, TVision, Dish Anywhere, etc. to things like the new Chromecast with Google TV, AT&T TV device, AirTV Mini and even the upcoming TVision Hub.
> 
> App developers however can restrict which Android TV (and future Google TV) devices can use their app. Hulu will restrict an app from a device when technical issues arise for that specific device. Amazon & Netflix restricts their apps in order to negotiate directly with the device operator. This is why there are gaps on which Android TV device has Netflix and Prime Video and why some (like AirTV Mini, Mi Box S) will initially launch without them.
> 
> Most other apps (Hulu, Disney+, HBO Max, Peacock, etc.) usually just negotiate with Google for the Google Play Store carriage on all Android TV/Google TV devices that can support the app. The only case I know of where HBO restricted their apps from an Android TV device was Osprey. It was having technical issues with the legacy HBO Now & HBO Go apps. They resolved the technical issues with HBO Max which is how Osprey got that app at launch.


So it's not AT&T who's blocking Hulu and Amazon Prime apps from Osprey? That also goes against what's been widely disseminated.

Are you affiliated with any of these type of companies to know all this detailed info?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

In the case of Amazon Prime, you can sideload a current version of the app and it works just fine.

With Hulu something more is going on. Current versions of the app can be sideloaded but don’t show video, just the audio. Version 2.1.3 is the last version that will work.

But all of this just points to the very irritating fact of life is that with streaming, there is no consistency at all. Each app uses its own UI, and even different UIs for the same app on the different boxes. AT&T actually did a great thing coming out with their box and UI but unfortunately it is a bit doggy in actual operation of anything but running the ATT TV app.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

techguy88 said:


> Only the TiVo Stream 4K runs Android TV and it is a lightly customized variant. The customized/unified TiVo GUI is actually an exclusive app called TiVo Stream. The Silver TiVo button on the remote will open this app.


Yes, it's a retail device. Like the Nvidia Shield TV, it has the standard Android TV home screen with just a slight bit of customization (i.e. just a special pre-installed app and a content row dedicated to that app on the home screen).



techguy88 said:


> TiVo's standalone hardware for OTA and cable users along with the cable operator branded TiVo set-top-boxes use a proprietary OS which require apps to be developed specifically for it. The actual TiVo hardware using the proprietary OS lacks the new apps like Disney+, HBO Max & Peacock. It used to carry HBO Now which was updated along with Amazon & Roku to just "HBO". HBO Go was removed after it was discontinued.


Yes, I know all that. (I used to have a TiVo and have posted for years over at TiVo Community Forum.) You're referring to TiVo's legacy hardware platform, which I wasn't talking about. TiVo also has their Next Gen Platform for managed IPTV operators and it can be deployed on either Android TV Operator Tier or Linux (although all of the instances I'm aware of so far have been on the former). That's what I was referring to. On those Android TV Operator Tier TiVo boxes, the UI is completely customized, much like the AT&T TV box. I've only ever seen that level of complete customization in cases where it's hardware that can't be purchased at retail but rather where it's only available to customers who have signed up for the operator's cable TV service.



techguy88 said:


> T-Mobile & Dish most likely want the devices to be usable if the end user decides to cancel their TV service. AT&T on the other hand initially had Osprey locked to where you have to have AT&T TV or TV Now. Recently AT&T changed that and now there is a basic blue screen that lets you access your apps or the device settings when your account is inactive.


Yes, but you can't purchase one of those boxes unless you're an AT&T TV subscriber. AT&T TV Now subs can't buy one. Nor can anyone who just walks into an AT&T Store.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

harperhometheater said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply. This flies in the face of what's been said here and elsewhere regarding whether the TiVo Stream 4K used Operator Tier and whether TiVo was allowed to use it since they weren't an MSO. Most if not all said it didn't since it was using "just an app", unlike the Osprey which took over the home screen and changed it completely.


Despite techguy88's long post above, I'm still not sure if TiVo Stream 4K is running Android TV Operator Tier. At any rate, there are three general categories of Android TV devices (not including the new Chromecast, which runs Google TV):


retail devices with very little or no UI/UX customization, e.g. Mi Box
retail devices with light customization, e.g. specifically intended for use with a particular OTT service like the AirTV Mini for Sling TV or the TVision Hub for TVision
non-retail devices distributed by pay TV operators with heavy customization for their own service, e.g. AT&T TV, TiVo Next Gen Platform IPTV

Whether the TiVo Stream 4K belongs in the first or second category, I'm not sure. TiVo does operate their own free OTT service, TiVo+, in their TiVo Stream app. So maybe that qualifies them to sell a retail device with a light amount of customization under Android TV Operator Tier?

At any rate, what I'm sure of is that you're not going to see any OEMs selling a retail Android TV device with their own fully customized launcher. Google is not going to allow that. And pretty soon, the only launcher that Google will allow on retail devices will be their own new Google TV software (although we'll have to see if they allow any degree of customization there).


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

NashGuy said:


> Despite techguy88's long post above, I'm still not sure if TiVo Stream 4K is running Android TV Operator Tier. At any rate, there are three general categories of Android TV devices (not including the new Chromecast, which runs Google TV):
> 
> 
> retail devices with very little or no UI/UX customization, e.g. Mi Box
> ...


AT&T is the device operator of Osprey so it is up to them how it is sold & distributed. If they wanted it to be sold at retail then they could do that. Clearly AT&T wants to use the device as a benefit of AT&T TV which is why they limit sales to just AT&T TV customers.

Standard Android TV certified units (Mi Box S, Nvidia Shield TV) *can't lock apps to the homescreen or the app channels segment*. *Only Android TV Operator Tier certified devices can do this.* I'm sure Nvidia would love to lock their "Nividia Games" app to the Android TV home screen but they can't unless they switch to Operator Tier.

In short to tell if the device is an Operator Tier device it must do one of the following that is not possible on stock Android TV certification:

Does the device operator require you to have any type of account (free or paid) to activate the device/complete setup in addition to a Google account?
Has the device operator locked specific apps to the favorites bar or the channel app segment?
Has the device manufacture modified or removed the stock Android TV in any way?
Has Google Assistant been customized to prioritize the device manufacture's services/apps?
Upon completion of setup are you sent straight to an alternate launcher/app?
So let's take a look at Osprey, TVision Hub, AirTV Mini, TiVo Stream 4K and Nvidia Shield TV:

*Shield TV* (any model): No this is not an Operator Tier certified device because you only need a Google Account to use the device. No apps are locked to the home screen and Google Assistant runs in its standard settings set by Google.
*Osprey*/AT&T TV device: Yes this is clearly an Operator Tier device as it has its own custom launcher, Google Assistant has been modified to place more emphasis on AT&T TV and an AT&T TV or TV Now account (active or inactive) is required to *use *this device.
I put emphasis on the use since you can use either AT&T TV or AT&T TV Now accounts with the device. AT&T however only officially sells the device to AT&T TV customers. You can however acquire pre-owned Osprey devices from places like eBay.

*AirTV Mini* (Dish/Sling): This is an Operator Tier device as a free or paid Sling TV account is required to use it. You are first booted into Sling TV and the only way to get to the Android TV launcher is by selecting the "Apps" button within Sling TV. On the regular Android TV Home Screen the "Sling TV with AirTV Mini" has been locked in place and the end user can't change them.
*TiVo Stream 4K*: A TiVo account is required to activate the device and complete the setup. The initial setup is modified to add a second layer which is to set up the TiVo Stream app. Google Assistant is customized to prioritize the TiVo Stream app. The TiVo Stream app is locked in both the favorites bar and the app channels segment.
*TVision Hub*: Based on the video that showed the Home Screen / Launcher it is clear TVision Hub will be on the Operator Tier standard. TVision has customized the launcher to include the TVision branding and has options for "Guide" and "DVR" integrated on the home screen. According to this article only Android TV Operator Tier devices can modify the Android TV Launcher in this compacity.
In conclusion based on everything publicly available about Android TV Operator Tier, how it operates and what it is designed for it is clear that Osprey, TVision Hub, AirTV Mini and TiVo Stream 4K are running the Operator Tier and have customized Android TV in certain ways. How the device is sold (retail, direct from operator, etc.) has no impact on if the device is standard Android TV or Android TV Operator Tier. The main things that determine this are the 5 points I listed above. If the device does at least 1 of the five things then it is on the Operator Tier as standard Android TV devices can't do those things.

FYI: In addition to retail, TiVo is offering MSOs like RCN the ability to sell TiVo Stream 4K to their customers as a their own streaming solution. So while retail is TiVo Stream 4K's primary distribution method (just like their own traditional set-top-boxes) TiVo's MSO partners can also sell this device to their own customer base.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

harperhometheater said:


> So it's not AT&T who's blocking Hulu and Amazon Prime apps from Osprey? That also goes against what's been widely disseminated.
> 
> Are you affiliated with any of these type of companies to know all this detailed info?


I do have friends that work in an AT&T call center (it was formally a D* O&O call center prior to the acquisition) that answer questions I personally have. However I'm not affiliated with any company. Tech of all kind is my hobby so I follow the advancements of the latest things from game consoles to smartphones & tablets, etc. I like to know exactly how things work so I do more extensive research and often buy things on my own to test (which is why I have a lot of streaming devices lol.)

Reading things like Google's Play Console Help (which is normally intended for developers) and Google's Terms of Services gives insight on how things work. Google prevents device operators/manufactures from blocking competitor's apps from being used on their Android TV devices. So AT&T and Dish can't block things like Philo & YouTube TV from Osprey & AirTV Mini even though Osprey is designed for AT&T TV and AirTV Mini is designed for Sling TV.

App developers have the ability to block their app from appearing on any Android TV devices. The most common reason is technical issues.

Hulu blocked Osprey after it couldn't function after updating from Hulu Classic to modern Hulu. @lparsons21 tried first hand to sideload the modern Hulu app to Osprey and it wouldn't work. However the Osprey device I got from eBay to test had the older Hulu app (referred to as "Hulu Classic") already installed and that version worked. I personally tested the Chromecast feature of Osprey and you can cast video from the modern Hulu app from a phone, tablet, etc. to Osprey. That is why Osprey doesn't have Hulu but has all other Disney apps like Disney+, ESPN+, DisneyNow, WatchABC, etc.

Hulu currently blocks Dish's AirTV Mini and refuses to support it. Hulu's reasoning for not supporting AirTV Mini is "it doesn't meet the company's technical requirements."

App developers can also block an Android TV device for any reason they want.

During the Amazon-Google dispute only Nvidia Shield was able to get the Prime Video app. When Amazon-Google ended their dispute which restored Google's apps to Amazon's Fire devices the Prime Video app has to be rolled out on an OEM basis for Android TV devices. This means the device operator & Amazon must agree to add the Prime Video to their device then updates to Prime Video are delivered via Google Play Store. Dish's AirTV Mini device launched without Prime Video support but the two sides didn't reach an agreement until December 2019 to officially add Prime Video to AirTV Mini. The Mi Box S was also in this boat initially no Prime Video app had to reach an agreement with Amazon then it was available.

Like @lparsons21 has proved you can sideload the Prime Video app to Osprey and it works as expected no technical issues. You can also cast content from Prime Video to devices that can't get the actual Prime Video app. So the main issue here for Osprey is AT&T reaching an agreement with Amazon to add Prime Video. Given Amazon's history (see the Amazon-Apple agreement) Amazon doesn't sign off on adding Prime Video to any device until Amazon has terms favorable to them. Just like Amazon doesn't add apps to Fire TV unless the terms are favorable to Amazon.

Netflix has its own certification program so an app must pass that and also reach terms with Netflix before their app can be available. Netflix is apparently easier to reach terms than Amazon which is why it is now rare for an Android TV device to launch without Netflix (but it still happens.)


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Hulu needs to do some serious fixing to their app IMO. Hulu basic on demand works fine, but Hulu+Live seems more problematic on all platforms if posts in a few forums I read in are correct. I know it was glitchy for me when I was sampling the various live streaming services.

And the lack of support for any 5.1 audio for Hulu’s AppleTV app is just ridiculous. At one time they said it did work but when called out by user that it didn’t, they just changed the web page saying it did.

But overall one of the more irritating parts is that the same app for the same service on different platforms is different in meaningful ways. Irritating.


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## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

techguy88 said:


> I do have friends that work in an AT&T call center (it was formally a D* O&O call center prior to the acquisition) that answer questions I personally have. However I'm not affiliated with any company. Tech of all kind is my hobby so I follow the advancements of the latest things from game consoles to smartphones & tablets, etc. I like to know exactly how things work so I do more extensive research and often buy things on my own to test (which is why I have a lot of streaming devices lol.)
> 
> Reading things like Google's Play Console Help (which is normally intended for developers) and Google's Terms of Services gives insight on how things work. Google prevents device operators/manufactures from blocking competitor's apps from being used on their Android TV devices. So AT&T and Dish can't block things like Philo & YouTube TV from Osprey & AirTV Mini even though Osprey is designed for AT&T TV and AirTV Mini is designed for Sling TV.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is the short answer is "Hulu and Amazon (Prime) are the ones blocking their apps from being on AT&T TV Osprey", not AT&T themselves? Gotcha! 

Nobody has still answered my question of whether there's a custom skin or anything that can make a stock Android, or I guess lightly modified like the TS4K, look like and act like an Osprey in that it boots up to the live TV app playing in the background, preferably with a customized app layout overlay?


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

harperhometheater said:


> Nobody has still answered my question of whether there's a custom skin or anything that can make a stock Android, or I guess lightly modified like the TS4K, look like and act like an Osprey in that it boots up to the live TV app playing in the background, preferably with a customized app layout overlay?


It is possible to install a custom launcher/home screen on Android TV devices however I haven't seen anyone develop a launcher that looks/acts like what AT&T has designed the Osprey to do.


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

Here is a good video of the TVision Hub in action.






So it appears T-Mobile's approach is a good one. Since the live channels from the TVision app isn't running all the time (in contrast to Ospery) the TVision Hub is more quick and responsive. The TVision app loads a lot quicker than the AT&T TV app does. The response time appears to be very similar to the TiVo Stream 4K.

Also worth noting *TVision Vibe* and *TVision Channels *services (TVision Channels is the a la carte option for Showtime, Starz & Epix) do not include the 100 Hour Cloud DVR. It is $5/mo extra. So if you want TVision Vibe only with Cloud DVR that will cost $15/mo.

However if you have say a *TVision Live* package (which includes the Cloud DVR at no extra cost) + *TVision Vibe *(at $10/mo) then both services have access to the same Cloud DVR. Google Assistant has been modified so while in the TVision app it will populate TVision specific results.

This video is similar to the one above but it shows a little bit more. Here is the main points this video covers that the first one didn't show:

When selecting "Apps" from the favorites row the Apps screen expands to cover the entire screen. On stock Android TV it just takes up the right side of the screen. 
Installing new apps on TVision Hub seem to download quicker than Osprey.

When selecting "Guide" from the top right of the home screen/launcher brings up the TVision guide without being in that app. (DVR most likely does the same thing.)
The keypad on the remote works just like on Osprey so you can type the channel number to get to a specific channel faster. (This point is discussed but not shown.)
Overall I think T-Mobile's approach with the TVision Hub is the best implementation of mixing a streaming device with a traditional pay-TV feel. AT&T should have taken this approach for Osprey IMO.


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

From a consumer perspective, TVision isn't the disruptor many hoped for unless maybe using for non sports viewers or when viewers' sports are inactive. $15 with DVR add-on for Vibe.

But this article reveals a disruption from another perspective. Interesting reactions from the TV streaming industry.

T-Mobile gives cord-cutters what they want, and media companies aren't happy about it

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

techguy88 said:


> Here is a good video of the TVision Hub in action.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think AT&T's offering is a better candidate for being the best mixture of streaming and old fashioned TV cable/satellite, since it DOES play the live tv in the background, like those old solutions do.

The only thing that seems to put TVision over the top so far maybe is that it uses newer and faster equipment and I think doesn't lock out apps like Hulu and Amazon Prime, although the lack of CBS and A&E(?) is a HUGE one too, so maybe it's even in that department.

So to sum up, they're both missing key apps/channels, AT&T TV plays live tv in GUI, TVision is faster and cheaper per month overall (not taking into account any contract discounts) and no contracts.

Missing CBS is huge for me though. Don't say CBS All Access to me either. I want my live TV networks to be live with DVR options where I can jump over commercials. Can you watch the CBS NFL games on Sundays in the app? I honestly don't know.

I can't order it anyway since I'm not a T-Mobile or Sprint customer anyway, so I'll wait and see how it all shakes out. Not like I have a choice, haha!


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## techguy88 (Mar 19, 2015)

harperhometheater said:


> I think AT&T's offering is a better candidate for being the best mixture of streaming and old fashioned TV cable/satellite, since it DOES play the live tv in the background, like those old solutions do.
> 
> The only thing that seems to put TVision over the top so far maybe is that it uses newer and faster equipment and I think doesn't lock out apps like Hulu and Amazon Prime, although the lack of CBS and A&E(?) is a HUGE one too, so maybe it's even in that department.
> 
> ...


All of the actual cord-cutting streaming options are missing at least 1 of the major channel groups (to be fair to TVision). A+E Networks are not available on TVision, AT&T TV Now & YouTube TV. Hulu + Live TV is missing AMC Networks. YouTube TV and Hulu + Live TV are missing Crown Media (Hallmark). fuboTV is missing the Turner networks. Sling TV is also missing all the legacy CBS networks as well.

You can watch NFL games via CBS All Access and their other sports on TV. The thing with CBS All Access (Commercial Free) is that you don't have to fast forward since you get no ads to begin with . Now that they have Smithsonian Channel content on CBS AA the value increased for me. I can be more lazy and my thumb doesn't have to press the FF & Play buttons.

Really AT&T TV Entertainment is the most comprehensive package if you don't mind paying $93/mo.



armchair said:


> From a consumer perspective, TVision isn't the disruptor many hoped for unless maybe using for non sports viewers or when viewers' sports are inactive. $15 with DVR add-on for Vibe.


Well TVision Vibe ($10) + Cloud DVR ($5) is still a cheaper deal than Philo ($20). While TVision's Cloud DVR has a 100 Hour cap the recordings are kept for 9 months. Philo keeps recordings for 30 days. So it is a bit of a trade-off.



armchair said:


> But this article reveals a disruption from another perspective. Interesting reactions from the TV streaming industry.
> 
> T-Mobile gives cord-cutters what they want, and media companies aren't happy about it


I'm surprised they have an issue with this since Discovery along with AMC Networks, A+E Networks & legacy Viacom (pre-CBS merger) were reported as being interested in such kind of bundles. ViacomCBS I can now see having an issue with this since Viacom & CBS have remarried. NBC (along with ABC, Fox and CBS) have always insisted their O&O locals be available to all subscribers. Now I do call BS on the part of NBC since Sling TV is able to have NBC O&Os on the Blue & Orange+Blue tiers but absent on the Orange tier.

This could be why AT&T has never created a WatchTV like add-on for AT&T TV Now Plus & Max for the missing channels from groups like Discovery. However this begs the question how did AT&T even get clearance from Discovery, Viacom, Crown Media & AMC Networks to create AT&T Watch TV in the first place? 

This will be interesting to see how these disputes with TVision's packages play out.


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## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

techguy88 said:


> All of the actual cord-cutting streaming options are missing at least 1 of the major channel groups (to be fair to TVision). A+E Networks are not available on TVision, AT&T TV Now & YouTube TV. Hulu + Live TV is missing AMC Networks. YouTube TV and Hulu + Live TV are missing Crown Media (Hallmark). fuboTV is missing the Turner networks. Sling TV is also missing all the legacy CBS networks as well.
> 
> You can watch NFL games via CBS All Access and their other sports on TV. The thing with CBS All Access (Commercial Free) is that you don't have to fast forward since you get no ads to begin with . Now that they have Smithsonian Channel content on CBS AA the value increased for me. I can be more lazy and my thumb doesn't have to press the FF & Play buttons.
> 
> ...


All this is just proving that cable and satellite are still the best bet if you want a simple all in one place to get ALL your channels. I'm thinking streaming more and more is nothing but a scam forced on the unsuspecting public. They're getting their money one way or another people!

Why bounce around from app to app and device to device? It's getting insane.


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

techguy88 said:


> All of the actual cord-cutting streaming options are missing at least 1 of the major channel groups (to be fair to TVision). A+E Networks are not available on TVision, AT&T TV Now & YouTube TV. Hulu + Live TV is missing AMC Networks. YouTube TV and Hulu + Live TV are missing Crown Media (Hallmark). fuboTV is missing the Turner networks. Sling TV is also missing all the legacy CBS networks as well.
> 
> You can watch NFL games via CBS All Access and their other sports on TV. The thing with CBS All Access (Commercial Free) is that you don't have to fast forward since you get no ads to begin with . Now that they have Smithsonian Channel content on CBS AA the value increased for me. I can be more lazy and my thumb doesn't have to press the FF & Play buttons.
> 
> ...


All interesting. Maybe they're upset because this price point could potentially drive down consumer pricing of skinny bundled plans.

Of all the skinny bundles out there, Fubo TV family with extra add-on was most interesting to me. However, there's an issue with the DVR jumping from delayed to live or end for hours on end for me. This was only impacting NASCAR races for on Fox and NBC along with their sports networks. Fubo support says they've identified a DVR overflow issue and should have it fixed soon. Fubo support has been responding to my support ticket with these findings; they didn't seem to mind that I've decided to pause the account. They answered all my concerns noted below with my grandfathered DVR and current recordings are kept.

So I'm taking a break from Fubo TV; paused the account for 3 months. Hopefully that's fixed soon enough or by then. I'm taking advantage of the CCwGTV $20 off x 3mo for YouTube TV (first time subscriber). For the moment I'm not missing History and Science channel.

Btw, did you know that with Fubo extra add-on, networks like out of network ACC, SEC and Tennis Channel are not $11 monthly, but $5.99? Extra add-on isn't the total sports add-on but added other entertainment channels of interest for me as well. The plan I'm pausing is $71.99/mo for 3 streams and I'm grandfathered in at 500 DVR hours; pausing doesn't revert the DVR to 250. That price isn't the competitive price it could be though. But look at what's competitive with that channel lineup now; not cheap. Could be cheaper.

YouTube TV is definitely better for DVR. But one thing of interest I found using the tools onboard the Chromecast, Fubo TV was actually giving me a faster connection speed then YouTube TV. Not much faster but last weekend, YouTube TV was rebuffering the NASCAR Cup race on Chromecast and Apple TV 4K. The CC is wireless; the Apple TV is wired Ethernet on 200 Mbps connection. Some streams are [email protected] on Fubo TV, even limited 4K is 30fps. But I did find I could manually set 4K at [email protected]; however, I'm not sure that's done internally or the incoming stream? Cool device and YTTV has mostly been good.

I am a TMobile subscriber. I'd consider TVision but the DVR at 100 hours is too limited for me. But I'm hoping TMobile and spacex bring Spectrum internet some competition soon. Seems Spectrum has raised price twice already this year? Not cool during a pandemic with kids distance learning and workers working from home.

A thought crossed my mind while looking at the complaints from these carriage contractors. What if TMobile's response is to add vibe to the other plans without a cost increase? I thought initially that would have been more disruptive. And bump the DVR capacity for free or small add-on would have been nice too. Bundling at a discount with 5G internet as it becomes more available would nudge me. Maybe this isn't so far fetched to offer to T-Mobile subscribers?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

harperhometheater said:


> All this is just proving that cable and satellite are still the best bet if you want a simple all in one place to get ALL your channels. I'm thinking streaming more and more is nothing but a scam forced on the unsuspecting public. They're getting their money one way or another people!
> 
> Why bounce around from app to app and device to device? It's getting insane.


The things I do to save money. Besides, if it weren't for streaming tv services without contacts, prices would be that much more out of control today. Streaming TV is a disruptor for the industry.

This skinny TV bundling viewing in streaming along with the subscriber losses to cable and satellite may be contributing to more bundling more channels within over the top services. These multi channel appetizers are less so where there's no appealing original content so they're collapsing into fewer services with more inclusive and exclusive bundles. Maybe eventually, the TV skinny bundle gets cheaper rather than the steady increase we've seen since their inception? Hence, TVision Vibe. Sling TV is on the rise again but still to lean on the bundle and too extreme with multiple narrowed and specialized add-ons that make little sense to me. How will the streaming TV providers respond?

I'm already bumping app to app for over the top services. YouTube TV is integrated in Google TV and Amazon Fire as well as other streaming TV services. I'm not yet accustomed to using these watchlist shortcuts but beginning to use CC with Google TV shortcut to get my recent recordings.

I've suspended DirecTV 3 times already and currently suspended voluntarily because it wasn't competitive for me. I've played that game of calling for temporary discounts and that even got cheaper rates after cancelling and coming back. But that game of calling got more frequent and less discounts, telling DirecTV there's cheaper rates out there in streaming. That's old and tired; possibly retired. I'm not happy DirecTV charged me nearly $5 to turn my account on just to tell me they weren't competitive still. Suspended immediately until February. It is cheaper to stream for some folks. It's likely made my viewing skinnier but also more leaning to over the top services with less ads. In the end, I'm likely not saving compared to before over the top services but the quality is arguably better to me. I'm ok with the cloud DVR as long as it works well and I can still skip ads. And having used DirecTV and Dish dvrs for years, I like YouTube TV's cloud DVR very much when it streams well.

Ads in TV services had changed the way I watch TV years ago. Record, delay, skip to actual content. If it works, I wouldn't change much except consider the provider and cost. Switching without penalty is a bonus to consumers. But I do wish TV in the USA was cheaper and didn't include so much ads. I'm hearing there's less ad revenue for TV services these days. Maybe that trend helps improve TV services for consumers too. If all true, I'm willing to do my part; stream, bump from app to app and switch providers it is. At some point in the year, maybe TVision Vibe saves even more. Doesn't look this happens for me this year though; I'll stick with my YTTV discount until last week of January.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## harperhometheater (Aug 31, 2012)

Will TVision ever get CBS and A&E? Any ideas on a date when it’s available to non-TMobile customers? Not that I’d get it until it offers CBS and A&E, but just in case they’re made available before or at launch to non customers.


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