# How would you like to be able to use Closed Captioning?



## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

We have been talking about *how* to Toggle Closed Captioning On/Off. Let's back up a step. *Why* would you want to be able to use Closed Captioning?

Right now it takes 23 keystrokes to turn CC On/Off. If you know all of the tricks, you can do it in only 16 keystrokes.

If you never use CC or always use CC, that complexity is not much of an issue. Call tech support once and they will walk you through it.

The problem is if you want to be able to toggle Closed Captioning On/Off. An occasional user may not remember the 23 steps. It is tedious if all you want is to better understand dialog in a bar scene or a couple of sentences.

So how would you like to be able to use Closed Captioning?

- Craig


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

You got the wording backwards on the last two options. I voted never use it, for the record


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Craig,

Thanks for putting up a poll to look at this other important dimension to CC


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Racer88 said:


> You got the wording backwards on the last two options. I voted never use it, for the record


Sorry about that. I PM'ed the mods asking if they can fix it.

- Craig


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Sorry about that. I PM'ed the mods asking if they can fix it.
> 
> - Craig


Should read correctly now.


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## bcowan12 (Oct 4, 2006)

I seldom leave it on for more than a few seconds, and its just to figure out a word or two that I missed. First I try replaying it a couple of time with the skip back 6 seconds button to see if I can make out the words by ear, and then go to CC. After that, I turn it off again.

It really has to be a one (preferaby) or two keypress operation for this type of use to work. And no "hold the button down for 3 seconds" deal -- that crap has made slow motion replay an exercise in frustration. As far as slow motion and skip to are concerned, I long for the days of TiVo. TiVo designers actually gave some thought to how people would really use their product.

Bruce


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## Drewg5 (Dec 15, 2006)

Noone in my household is hearing impaired, although it is necessary to use CC when my mother is visiting, and it's just nice to have for the times mute is needed.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I am just curious why there isn't a question " I am hearing impaired and require it"? Or is that assumed with the last question?


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## machavez00 (Nov 2, 2006)

I voted for the top 4, especially those "what the hell did he say" moments. I am not hard of hearing but there are some show and movies that the dialog is low. If you turn up the volume to hear it you blast yourself when music or SFX happen. For years I thought Emperor Palpatine was saying "century" moon when he was saying "sanctuary"


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

armophob said:


> I am just curious why there isn't a question " I am hearing impaired and require it"? Or is that assumed with the last question?


I wonder if it is a stereotype that all hearing impaired households just turn on Closed Captioning and leave it on.

Would some might want the ability to quickly click CC "OFF" if someone leaves the room and quickly "ON" later when the return?

We are not hearing impaired but would like to be able to quickly click CC on to better understand a few words or a scene and then turn them right back off.

I wonder if there are others who would like the same capability.

- Craig


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I wonder if it is a stereotype that all hearing impaired households just turn on Closed Captioning and leave it on.
> 
> Would some might want the ability to quickly click CC "OFF" if someone leaves the room and quickly "ON" later when the return?
> 
> ...


I understand that, and we are all friends here. Just struck me funny that original intension was not listed as a choice.


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## macEarl (Jan 2, 2007)

Under other - I like to watch late at night, wife's asleep - CC means that I can watch Military channel without regard for waking her. When the cannons come on, I make the text bigger so I can read over the loud noises.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

I said "Toggle CC on/off if people are over (party, etc.)" because I have it on always unless no one deaf is around and someone hearing is over and finds it distracting.


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I wonder if it is a stereotype that all hearing impaired households just turn on Closed Captioning and leave it on.
> 
> Would some might want the ability to quickly click CC "OFF" if someone leaves the room and quickly "ON" later when the return?
> 
> ...


Not at all. The wife is hearing impaired. She needs CC much of the time when watching TV. The kids can't stand having the CC on. Drives them crazy. So they want to turn it off. A lot of times my wife forgets to turn off CC before turning off the TV. Then the kids yell to have one of us come in and turn it off when they flip on the tube, because its too complicated to do it on their own. They've never had this problem. We have always had a TV that had CC on the remote, and/or a TV that has the option to engage CC when mute is pressed. So its always only ever been a button press for them.


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## MichaelP (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm another one of those folks that sometimes turns on CC to understand a word or two. Case in point, the Palpatine example above. I also thought he was saying "century" before I bought the DVD and happened to turn CC on once. 

After buying a new TV and connecting the DTV HD DVR via HDMI (Geez, is that enough acronyms?!) I realized that the TV CC no longer functioned. I could get it back if I used Component video, but damnit, the picture is soooooo good that I don't want to go to that trouble. It's my own fault, I know. So it would be nice to be able to toggle CC on and off quickly on the DVR.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

I voted for several options along with the 'Always on" which might seem to be a contradiction of use. My GF requires CC so when she is here we always have CC on...however when she has gone to bed or is not here I would like to be able to quickly toggle it on/off for the other reasons that I picked. Sometimes CC kinda ruins the HD Wide Screen experience so when my GF is not here it would be nice to able to quickly and easily toggle it.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I'm also in the "if I don't need them, I don't want to see them" camp. I find them distracting and, IMHO, they detract from the wide screen picture experience. That being said, following a good story is more important than anything else, and we frequently find the need to to turn on captions to understand missed dialog.

I'm hopeful that whatever new method for simply toggling CC's we ulitimately vote for in the other CC poll, it's not too difficult to program and can be quickly implemented by the HR-20 developers.

/steve


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Slightly off topic, for those who're interested, PBS (in HD!) has this excellent history of the American deaf community:

http://www.pbs.org/weta/throughdeafeyes/

It's especially nice that they have some excellent examples of ASL as the beautiful language it is. Like any language, it's not just a communication tool, but can be an art.

I've been connected to the deaf community for a long time, and even I learned things from this show--so check it out!


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## jaybertx (Feb 18, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I wonder if it is a stereotype that all hearing impaired households just turn on Closed Captioning and leave it on.
> 
> Would some might want the ability to quickly click CC "OFF" if someone leaves the room and quickly "ON" later when the return?


This is definitely the case for us. When my hearing impaired son is watching TV with us we turn it on but when he is not we like to turn it off.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

I selected only the options that are why I want CC, but I agree that most of the top 4 are always a potential use. 

There are two other reasons I want to toggle CC that are not shown, and which the current painful path thru the menus thwart my use. One similar to the understand accents or see over loud noises, but would resolve one of the infrequent and most frustrating aspects of watching TV or a movie -- trying to go back to figure out what was said due to mumbling, low voices, strange words, etc. I really hate the rewind, listen, rewind, listen, rewind, listen, give up mode of viewing. About the third of the time the "give up" option just leaves the frustration. 

The other reason is just a pure curiosity, perhaps novelty of seeing the words. For some reason, I just enjoy this for a while and would do it almost everyday if there was just a simple toggle. It's just the child in me, I can't help it.


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## johnchart (Sep 17, 2006)

With my Universal Automator I use 14 steps (16 steps if the count the DOWN TWICE AND SELECT TWICE) as follows:
1. MENU
2. DOWN TWICE
3. SELECT
4. UP
5. SELECT
6. LEFT
7. DOWN
8. SELECT
9. UP
10. RIGHT
11. SELECT TWICE
12. DOWN
13. SELECT
14. EXIT

There are times when this doesn't work for some reason. I have found that you must point the remote DIRECTLY AT THE HR-20 for it to work properly. 

John


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

I selected 1,2, and 5.
However, there is one "other reason" .
Sometimes "Edited for TV" movies will still display the unedited captions.


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## katesguy (Jan 12, 2007)

one button toggle would be great. I also could use it in the morning when I get up at 7am and wifey gets up as late as 10am


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

So far, 28% want to just turn CC on or off and leave it.

*72%* want to be able to actively *toggle *CC on and off.

D*, if you are listening, this would tell you not to bury Closed Captioning in a menu even if it is less than 23 keystrokes to find it.

Let's see as we get more responses if this trend changes.

- Craig


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> D*, if you are listening, this would tell you not to bury Closed Captioning in a menu even if it is less than 23 keystrokes to find it.


+1. The other CC Poll indicates over a 2 to 1 preference for a button over a menu, with assignment to the red or green button the #1 request. /steve


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Still sitting at 70% who want to be able to toggle CC on and off as needed. About 30% never change it.


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## mikeinthekeys (Feb 10, 2007)

Somewhere I saw a comment about South Park... CC really helps me figure out what is going on without turning the volume up to threshold of pain levels! More seriously, I echo most of the comments in favor of a toggle option, but as I said in another post, I would like to see it linked to a mute function (user selectable) if possible. I have a hearing disability, high frequency loss, caused by jet engine noise in the AF. Even though I can hear, it is sometimes difficult to understand. Most movies I watch with my family and friends show subtitles if English ones are offered on the DVD. Likewise, I often keep CC on during the day to keep track of new items, turning up the volume only if something interests me. 

One trick I discovered has proven useful, if you hit Exit after setting up CC, the Back button takes you back there. Of course, as soon as you do something else, it doesn't go there anymore.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

mikeinthekeys said:


> One trick I discovered has proven useful, if you hit Exit after setting up CC, the Back button takes you back there.


That's exactly what we need. A designated button that "ALWAYS" takes you back to CC's! 

/steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

I'm relieved to see that the top two issues are problems others have as well. I was beginning to think it was just me!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> So far, 28% want to just turn CC on or off and leave it.
> 
> *72%* want to be able to actively *toggle *CC on and off.
> 
> ...


Wait... That is the "magic" of the question.... and evaluating the results.

I voted... just one category that really fits me... and that is the Toggle it on when having a party.

I only have 3-4 parties a year, that would need that to be "toggled".
So does that mean I want it to be a "Quick Toggle", for those 4 times?

Same with the "bar" sceene... What bar do you go to, that has CC turned on... has it turned off the next time you are there? Usually in those enviornements (like my Hair Cut place), they leave it on all the time... but it does "technically" meet the answer to the question.

Some of the others, like phone call... do you get "that many" phone calls while watching TV, that you have to keeping turning it on and off? VS pausing playback...

--------
So the way I read the question and answers... 77% of people have a situation where they would turn-on CC.

The followup question: Okay... So, how often do you see those situations happening... that it would justify having a "quick toggle" button on the remote, vs somewhere in the menu (Where I agree that it should be in the first menu that comes up while watching live TV... the same way Caller-ID notifications is).


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I only have 3-4 parties a year, that would need that to be "toggled".
> [...]
> The followup question: Okay... So, how often do you see those situations happening... that it would justify having a "quick toggle" button on the remote, vs somewhere in the menu (Where I agree that it should be in the first menu that comes up while watching live TV... the same way Caller-ID notifications is).


Earl, why would you care if it's easier to turn CC's on or off if it's not an important feature for you? It's a very important issue for lots of us. I run into situations 1-3 at least once a night of TV viewing. I'd like to turn them on in the least intrusive way possible to continue following the story, like using the subtitle button when watching a DVD.

Sounds like you're arguing against something that really won't affect the way you use the HR-20, but will help others. I know you don't mean it to come across that way. 

/steve


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

Toggle on and off with a user control button. That way when I mute my system, I can write a macro so CC will go on.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...The followup question: Okay... So, how often do you see those situations happening... that it would justify having a "quick toggle" button on the remote, vs somewhere in the menu (Where I agree that it should be in the first menu that comes up while watching live TV... the same way Caller-ID notifications is).


Earl, I am making some assumptions here and that is always dangerous...

How often you want to toggle CC on and off depends on what causes you to want to use it

During a party: 3-4 times a year is the same for me

To understand a foreign accent we turn CC on and off several times a night, especially during shows like ER, CSI, Survivor, etc. The Apprentice just fired one contestant who could only be understood with CC on. Trump may not have fired her if he could have had sub-titles when she talked.

To better understand dialog in a scene with a lot of background noise is also several times a night for us.

To better understand technical jargon or slang is a toggle on/off at least twice during any episode of ER, CSI, etc.

We also get at least two calls every evening while watching TV every night. Toggle is key there.

So if someone checked that they need CC to understand accents, with scene background noise, jargon, slang, etc, that is probably several times a night they would like to click CC on and then off a minute later.

If CC is for when they throw a party that is probably 3-4 times a year, maybe less.

I still had your hearing 15 years ago. I have more trouble with loud scene background music, accents, etc. now

- Craig


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## gr8reb8 (Aug 21, 2006)

If it was available, I would use a one button cc toggle more often than the guide button.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> To understand a foreign accent we turn CC on and off several times a night, especially during shows like ER, CSI, Survivor, etc. The Apprentice just fired one contestant who could only be understood with CC on. Trump may not have fired her if he could have had sub-titles when she talked.


+1.

If anyone who watched tonight's "24" can tell me the line Gredenko spoke to Fayed after he asked "are you going to shoot me?" without the use of closed captions, you're a much better listener than me! Turns out it wasn't important, but I was forced to enable CC's to find that out.

Good thing I did, because we had some weather interfere with the sat signal after that. There were frequent instances of pixelization accompanied by audio dropouts. Without the aid of the captions, we would have missed quite a bit.

/steve


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## JoeKerr (Jan 17, 2007)

When I had basic D* service, I could use my TV remote's caption button to toggle CC. After I upgraded to the HD service, my TV puts up a note saying "information unavailable". So two questions:

1) Is it true the CC info can be converted to on-screen text a) at the receiver (handled by DTV software) or b) by the TV hardware?

2) Seems to be the case that the CC info is not passed on to the TV by the HD DTV software.. why is that?

I found this link that discusses the issue..
http://www.alldeaf.com/captioning-s...mi-component-hdtv-not-support-captioning.html


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

CC encoding is not passed through HDMI. CC must be activated at the source ie:HR20, sat receiver,dvd player etc.if using HDMI as the connection, all other types of connections can pass CC encoding so the* tv's* CC feature can be used. 
The above is the case whether the programming is HD or SD...it's HDMI's fault.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> CC encoding is not passed through HDMI. CC must be activated at the source ie:HR20, sat receiver,dvd player etc.if using HDMI as the connection, all other types of connections can pass CC encoding so the* tv's* CC feature can be used.
> The above is the case whether the programming is HD or SD...it's HDMI's fault.


Actually, it doesn't make any difference how you are connected.

With digital broadcasts, the device with the digital tuner is responsible for displaying the captions. So if you had a TV with an ATSC tuner connected to a UHF antenna receiving digital signals, the TV would decode the captions. In the case of the HR-20, it is tuning the sat channels, and you're only passing the decoded video on to your display, so the HR-20 has to handle the captions. This is the case no matter how your HR-20 is connected: HDMI, DVI, Component, composite or S-Video! 

/steve


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

sluciani said:


> Earl, why would you care if it's easier to turn CC's on or off if it's not an important feature for you? It's a very important issue for lots of us. I run into situations 1-3 at least once a night of TV viewing. I'd like to turn them on in the least intrusive way possible to continue following the story, like using the subtitle button when watching a DVD.
> 
> Sounds like you're arguing against something that really won't affect the way you use the HR-20, but will help others. I know you don't mean it to come across that way.
> 
> /steve


Define a "lot of you". 
Most of my arguments are to make sure that people don't lose sight of the "bigger" picture... instead of exactly how "they" want it to be used.

So for the most part... I am devil's advocate here in this particular argument.

To a marginal degree... Yes, I do care if it becomes a button... especially if it is one of the colored ones... as IMHO... once it goes there, it is not comming off... thus limiting future options for those buttons.

People keep talking about DVD Remotes... other remotes do it.
Well those remotes where "designed" to have that button...
The RC series remotes were not... they don't have a button marked subtitles like the DVD remotes...

If it becomes a button... I won't lose any sleep over it..
Until maybe later this year, or next... when we start seeing the threads... "They should move CC quick toggle somewhere else so we can use that button for this feature"...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

sluciani said:


> +1.
> 
> If anyone who watched tonight's "24" can tell me the line Gredenko spoke to Fayed after he asked "are you going to shoot me?" without the use of closed captions, you're a much better listener than me! Turns out it wasn't important, but I was forced to enable CC's to find that out.


Actually... yes, I could.

But then that could be because I have spent the last 10 years working with people from all over the world, and can relatively easily understand most accents.


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## JoeKerr (Jan 17, 2007)

sluciani said:


> Actually, it doesn't make any difference how you are connected.
> 
> With digital broadcasts, the device with the digital tuner is responsible for displaying the captions. So if you had a TV with an ATSC tuner connected to a UHF antenna receiving digital signals, the TV would decode the captions. In the case of the HR-20, it is tuning the sat channels, and you're only passing the decoded video on to your display, so the HR-20 has to handle the captions. This is the case no matter how your HR-20 is connected: HDMI, DVI, Component, composite or S-Video!
> 
> /steve


"With digital broadcasts, the device with the digital tuner is responsible for displaying the captions."
That doesn't really jibe with my experience with the R15. I did not have to activate anything at the tuner, I just used my TV remote to start the CC. Maybe it was already enabled? I guess there are two things -- enabling the CC info to be passed to the TV and actually taking that info and putting it on the screen. Maybe you meant the former and not the latter.


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## JoeKerr (Jan 17, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> CC encoding is not passed through HDMI. CC must be activated at the source ie:HR20, sat receiver,dvd player etc.if using HDMI as the connection, all other types of connections can pass CC encoding so the* tv's* CC feature can be used.
> The above is the case whether the programming is HD or SD...it's HDMI's fault.


I guess that means that a component connection should allow me to use the TV's CC feature? I'll try it and report back.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Please see my post in the "Mute/red/green Remote Button Functions" thread regarding use of the colored buttons that could potentially serve as a bridge between those that want quick access to teh CC option and those that want to protect dedicated use of the colored buttons. Would the following work for most people?


drew2k said:


> While writing my response to Steve, I thought of a different way to use the YELLOW button AND the other colored buttons...
> 
> What if when you press YELLOW a menu pops-up on screen, in the same corner of the screen that the Caller-ID menu appears.
> 
> ...


Link: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=887080&postcount=38


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

JoeKerr said:


> I guess that means that a component connection should allow me to use the TV's CC feature? I'll try it and report back.


It should. In fact I connected my HR20 to my tv via component and I turned on the tvs CC and to my confusion I saw two CC images. I had the HR20s CC on at the same time as the tvs.:nono2: I could turn either one on. With HDMI only the HR20 controls the CC image.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

If you could toggle CC on and off with a button, how *often *would you use it to:

Understanding someone with an accent?

Understand dialog with loud background (bar scene, etc.)?

Understand technical terms, jargon, or slang?

Take a phone call?

Hourly? Nightly? Weekly?

- Craig


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> If you could toggle CC on and off with a button, how *often *would you use it


Honestly, I don't use CC ever. So, in reality if it took 10 button presses or one button press it wouldn't matter too much to me. Clearly, though a lot of people want this to be easier, so for that reason I do hope that it improves.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> If you could toggle CC on and off with a button, how *often *would you use it to:
> 
> Understanding someone with an accent?
> 
> ...


More than I presently change CC now,which is rarely if ever. CC is on all the time because my GF needs it and it is a pain in the hiney to change it whenever she isn't watching the tv. I have gotten use to CC and kinda like it on but sometimes I would like a quick way to turn it off.
Any toggle that lets one bypass the litany of menu steps,for anything, will be a blessing.

One caveat...muting should not be tied into CC toggle. Audio and CC are not mutually exclusive. IMNSHO.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> One caveat...muting should not be tied into CC toggle. Audio and CC are not mutually exclusive. IMNSHO.


Absolutely. CC and Mute must have nothing to do with each other. We may or may not hit mute or Pause. We are never turning CC on/Off at the same times.

- Craig


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Absolutely. CC and Mute must have nothing to do with each other. We may or may not hit mute or Pause. We are never turning CC on/Off at the same times.
> 
> - Craig


My thought on this - although academic because Mute is for the TV, not the HR20 - are that it would be nice if it were an option. Certainly, most people would not want this, but I can clearly see a case where some households would like the CC to come on when you mute the TV. There are other cases where this wouldn't work, so it should be an option.

Now, the reality of it is that this will not work in any affective way. The TV is muted by the MUTE button on the remote. There is now way to guarantee that the TV and the HR20 are properly muted at the same time, so think of the nightmare if they get out of sync (CC comes on when the TV is NOT muted). So, clearly this ain't gonna happen.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

There could probably easily be a new setup option to allow mute to control the audio output of the HR-20. However, I suspect it wouldn't be easy to separate volume and mute on the remote control, where they are both joined at the hip. /steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> It should. In fact I connected my HR20 to my tv via component and I turned on the tvs CC and to my confusion I saw two CC images. I had the HR20s CC on at the same time as the tvs.:nono2: I could turn either one on. With HDMI only the HR20 controls the CC image.





JoeKerr said:


> "That doesn't really jibe with my experience with the R15. I did not have to activate anything at the tuner, I just used my TV remote to start the CC. Maybe it was already enabled?.


Were you both watching an SD channel? I was talking about HD CC's. Sorry about the confusion! /steve


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

sluciani said:


> Were you both watching an SD channel? I was talking about HD CC's. Sorry about the confusion! /steve


It's all about how you have the HR20 connected to your tv, not if the channel is HD or SD.
This is straight out of the owners manual for my Panny TH-42PX60U: "The CC is not displayed when you use HDMI connection." This is refering to turning on the CC at the tv. The CC must be turned on at the source..again whatever component is connected to the tv via HDMI.
Now if you have the HR20 connected to the tv by any other means ie:Component etc other than HDMI you can use the tv CC feature.
For some reason that is beyond my understanding HDMI does not pass the encoded CC just the decoded signal.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> This is straight out of the owners manual for my Panny TH-42PX60U: "The CC is not displayed when you use HDMI connection.


I believe Panny is referring to SD closed captions. If you connect via component, I don't believe you will see HD closed captions. I think the only way you'll see those is if you connect a UHF antenna to your built-in ATSC tuner. /steve


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

sluciani said:


> I believe Panny is referring to SD closed captions. If you connect via component, I don't believe you will see HD closed captions. I think the only way you'll see those is if you connect a UHF antenna to your built-in ATSC tuner. /steve


It will be a bit of a PIA but when I get home tonight I will test your hypothesis but I'm fairly certain that with CC turned off at the HR20 my Panny will not display CC when turned on at the tv connedted via HDMI but will with component/S-video and composite.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> with CC turned off at the HR20 my Panny will not display CC when turned on at the tv connedted via HDMI but will with component/S-video and composite.


Yup. For SD only tho, not HD. If I get a chance, I'll try to test it as well. one of my displays is a 42PD60U. Same innards as yours, but an ED panel. /steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So for the most part... I am devil's advocate here in this particular argument.


I guess my point is why is this even an argument? And why do you feel like it's up to you to play devil's advocate? If the feature is not important to you, don't sweat it! 

Cheers,

/steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

sluciani said:


> Yup. For SD only tho, not HD. If I get a chance, I'll try to test it as well. one of my displays is a 42PD60U. Same innards as yours, but an ED panel. /steve


Working from home today, so I was able to try it. I connected the HR-20 via component and couldn't get either SD or HD CC's to show up on channels I verified had captions. I had the the Panny set to CC "on", "Primary" and "CC1". Pretty nice PQ via component vs. HDMI, btw!


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

sluciani said:


> Working from home today, so I was able to try it. I connected the HR-20 via component and couldn't get either SD or HD CC's to show up on channels I verified had captions. I had the the Panny set to CC "on", "Primary" and "CC1". Pretty nice PQ via component vs. HDMI, btw!


Now you really have my interest piqued.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> Now you really have my interest piqued.


It's possible that because I had HDMI and Component connected simultaneously to the PD60U, that HDMI being present might have affected the component input's ability to deal with SD captions, but I doubt it.

When you test tonight, maybe you can disconnect HDMI entirely from the PX60U? I couldn't because my display is mounted on the wall and I can't get to the back of it without taking it down. I already had component cables attached for my DVD player. /steve


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

sluciani said:


> It's possible that because I had HDMI and Component connected simultaneously to the PD60U, that HDMI being present might have affected the component input's ability to deal with SD captions, but I doubt it.
> 
> When you test tonight, maybe you can disconnect HDMI entirely from the PX60U? I couldn't because my display is mounted on the wall and I can't get to the back of it without taking it down. I already had component cables attached for my DVD player. /steve


It is possible that your TV doesn't accept CC via Component inputs.
Each TV has different "quirks" about it.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I think it's previously been posted here that component does not have CC information, only S-Video and composite does.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

lamontcranston said:


> I think it's previously been posted here that component does not have CC information, only S-Video and composite does.


That is correct.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

I don't see this listed as an option above in the poll.. but why can't I set the HR20 to turn ON closed captioning when I MUTE the TV??? This seems to be very basic.

Right now, the TV's MUTE function and the HR20 are totally independent of each other. Since the MUTE command is from the HR20s remote and the TV mutes, can't the HR20 also see this signal and turn on CC??


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

n3ntj said:


> I don't see this listed as an option above in the poll.. but why can't I set the HR20 to turn ON closed captioning when I MUTE the TV??? This seems to be very basic.
> 
> It's been discussed in related threads to this one. The TV's MUTE function and the HR20 are totally independent of each other. Since the MUTE command is from the HR20s remote and the TV mutes, can't the HR20 also see this signal and turn on CC??


The Mute IR signal frequency varies, depending on which TV or Audio Receiver you've programmed the volume and mute for, so the HR-20 doesn't know about it. If the Mute muted the HR-20 audio output instead of the TV or amp, it would be a different story. /steve


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

sluciani said:


> It's possible that because I had HDMI and Component connected simultaneously to the PD60U, that HDMI being present might have affected the component input's ability to deal with SD captions, but I doubt it.
> 
> When you test tonight, maybe you can disconnect HDMI entirely from the PX60U? I couldn't because my display is mounted on the wall and I can't get to the back of it without taking it down. I already had component cables attached for my DVD player. /steve


I connected my H20 to my Panny 27 HDCRT tv via component. I turned off the CC on the H20 and went into my tv menu....the CC option was grayed out.
Sooo....as others have noted that component does not pass CC encoding just like HDMI doesn't. 
I didn't bother to try it with the HR20 and my Panny plasma because that would be a major PIA.
So if one hooks up the tv via HDMI or Component the CC must be turned on at the HR20 or H20.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> I connected my H20 to my Panny 27 HDCRT tv via component. I turned off the CC on the H20 and went into my tv menu....the CC option was grayed out.
> Sooo....as others have noted that component does not pass CC encoding just like HDMI doesn't.
> I didn't bother to try it with the HR20 and my Panny plasma because that would be a major PIA.
> So if one hooks up the tv via HDMI or Component the CC must be turned on at the HR20 or H20.


Addendum to above experiment.^

MYTH:CC encoding does not pass thru component connections.

After last nights experiment I was abit confused. I remember when I first hooked up my Panny HDCRT to the H20 I hooked it up with component and saw two overlapping CC images, one form the H20 and one from the tv itself. I later hooked up using HDMI and had to use the H20 for the CC.
When I did last nights test I hooked up the component but left the HDMI plugged. Hmmm.......Soooo....tonight I unplugged the HDMI from the tv and turned off the CC at the H20 and turned on the CC at the tv and.........voila....CLOSED CAPTIONING! I then turned on the CC at the H20 and sure enough two overlapping closed captions. It seems that when HDMI is plugged in it takes over and controls the tv in somethings.
I haven't tried it with my Panny 42' plasma and the HR20 'cause it's a pain but I'm going to hypothesize that unplugging the HDMI will do the same thing.
I have previously said that CC does work with Component. I am vindicated.

MYTH:CC encoding does not pass thru component connections. BUSTED


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> Addendum to above experiment.^
> 
> MYTH:CC encoding does not pass thru component connections.
> 
> ...


But the looming question is, does it work for HD channels? I too have to do some "unmounting" if I'm going to switch from HDMI to Component. More than worth it for my hearing impaired wife. But I'm hoping you know the answer before I break out DeWalt screw gun. If I use Component instead of HDMI, will my TV be able to control CC on all channels - both HD and SD?

Also, I read in an earlier post that only HDMI can upconvert the signal. That you can't upconvert through Component connections - e.g. leave Native Off and set to 1080i and actually get a 1080i screen.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

I would wait till I can test a wide variaty of channels. The couple of channels I tried did work but I just switched to a local HD channel and the CC part of my tvs menu was grayed out. 
I will need to try both native on and off and different res. settings.


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> I would wait till I can test a wide variaty of channels. The couple of channels I tried did work but I just switched to a local HD channel and the CC part of my tvs menu was grayed out.
> I will need to try both native on and off and different res. settings.


THANKS!!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> I would wait till I can test a wide variaty of channels. The couple of channels I tried did work but I just switched to a local HD channel and the CC part of my tvs menu was grayed out.
> I will need to try both native on and off and different res. settings.


Don't bother. I stand by post #53! SD and HD CC's are two different animals. 

/steve


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> I would wait till I can test a wide variaty of channels. The couple of channels I tried did work but I just switched to a local HD channel and the CC part of my tvs menu was grayed out.
> I will need to try both native on and off and different res. settings.


I dug out a component cable and hooked it up to my Olevia. I unhooked the HDMI cable. I also have a DVD recorder hooked up to the TV and the HR20 through SVideo.

Svideo connection works perfectly on both HD and SD channels for CC. Component doesn't work at all on any channel. No CC on the component connection. I checked the Olevia menu system. There is settings for "Analog CC" but there is no digital CC menu at all. Tried all the analog settings. Still no CC on my TV at all. Tried Native On/Off and all different resolutions. No change. Still no CC on Component.

So I guess it depends on the TV as to whether or not you get digital CC. I then yanked the Component connections and restored the HDMI connection from the HR20. But I kept the DVD recorder on SVideo instead of Component. And the CC still works through the DVD recorder with HDMI hooked up.

So dissapointed that Component doesn't work with CC on my TV. But I'm still delighted on what I learned here. I didn't know that I could use the TV with the SVideo connection for CC. So now I am heading to the family room to hook up an SVideo connection to that HR20 so that my wife can use it, even though she'll be giving up the beauty of the HDMI connection, she'll still be thrilled to be able to useCC again without going through 16 menu picks on the remote..

BTW footnote: I also discovered that Native Off doesn't work properly through Component with the Olevia. If I set it to 720p or 1080i with Native Off, the signal gets all whacked out unless I'm set to 1080i and I go to a 1080i channel. If I go to a 480i channel, the color gets all whacky. The screen looks kind of like a sepia picture. If I turn Native back on, it looks fine. So it looks like the upconvert is trying to work through Component, but its not working correctly.

Hopefully they'll add a reasonable shortcut on the HR20 to toggle CC soon and I won't need the Svideo connection then.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

ChrisMinCT said:


> So dissapointed that Component doesn't work with CC on my TV. But I'm still delighted on what I learned here. I didn't know that I could use the TV with the SVideo connection for CC. So now I am heading to the family room to hook up an SVideo connection to that HR20 so that my wife can use it, even though she'll be giving up the beauty of the HDMI connection, she'll still be thrilled to be able to useCC again without going through 16 menu picks on the remote.


I guess leaving them on all the time is not an option for you. If so, I understand. When I don't need them, I don't want to see them either.

You're still not going to see CC's on HD channels, even hooked-up S-Video, unless you turn them on with the HR-20. The gyrations you're having to go through are exactly why we need a simpler way to turn them on from the HR-20 remote. It's on the wish list. Hopefully someone's listening. /steve


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

sluciani said:


> I guess leaving them on all the time is not an option for you. If so, I understand. When I don't need them, I don't want to see them either.
> 
> You're still not going to see CC's on HD channels, even hooked-up S-Video, unless you turn them on with the HR-20. The gyrations you're having to go through are exactly why we need a simpler way to turn them on from the HR-20 remote. It's on the wish list. Hopefully someone's listening. /steve


Sorry to contradict, but via the SVideo, I see CC via the TV on every channel. HD, SD, MPG4, MPG2. They all work, on both units/TVs. The wife is in hog heaven this morning. She's back to mute for CC and she's happier than a pig in you know what. She loves this because she mutes the TV to get CC and then turns on the receiver and gets sound through the optical connection from the HR20.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

ChrisMinCT said:


> Sorry to contradict, but via the SVideo, I see CC via the TV on every channel. HD, SD, MPG4, MPG2.


Hmmmm. I would have bet a month's pay that would not be the case. I think I know why tho. D* must be transmitting the backward compatible channels, explained here:

_For all types of NTSC programming, captions are "encoded" into Line 21 of the vertical blanking interval - a part of the TV picture that sits just above the visible portion and is usually unseen. For ATSC (digital television) programming, three streams are encoded in the video: two are backward compatible Line 21 captions, and the third is a set of up to 63 additional caption streams encoded in EIA-708 format._

I learn something new every day! 

/steve


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

Toggling the CC on is absolutely necessary when trying to understand Boomhauer on Kong of the Hill 

See ya
Tony


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

*For those of you who want a faster way to toggle CC's on/off, please be sure to assign this request a high priority in Doug's Wish List Survey!* It's currently wallowing at #46. TIA. /steve


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

sluciani said:


> Hmmmm. I would have bet a month's pay that would not be the case. I think I know why tho. D* must be transmitting the backward compatible channels, explained here:
> 
> _For all types of NTSC programming, captions are "encoded" into Line 21 of the vertical blanking interval - a part of the TV picture that sits just above the visible portion and is usually unseen. For ATSC (digital television) programming, three streams are encoded in the video: two are backward compatible Line 21 captions, and the third is a set of up to 63 additional caption streams encoded in EIA-708 format._
> 
> ...


I'll split it with you. Just send me two week's pay, eh? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

ChrisMinCT said:


> I'll split it with you. Just send me two week's pay, eh? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


The check is in the mail! :sure:


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

After 139 respondents, only 35% just turn CC on or of and leave it. The rest want to be able to toggle CC on and off as needed.

If you ahve not taken the survey, please take it.

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

drew2k said:


> _While writing my response to Steve, I thought of a different way to use the YELLOW button AND the other colored buttons...
> 
> What if when you press YELLOW a menu pops-up on screen, in the same corner of the screen that the Caller-ID menu appears.
> 
> ...


That is my favorite so far. What I like best about it is that if D* needs it to be a different menu at different times, they still have that flexibillity.

- Craig


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> That is my favorite so far. What I like best about it is that if D* needs it to be a different menu at different times, they still have that flexibillity.
> 
> - Craig


That's cool! I think this could be a good solution also, as it serves a lot of purposes: simplicity, flexibility, and stability (it doesn't break any other use of color keys). Now the challenge is... how do you summarize this to get it added to Doug's Wish List survey?


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Please give your opinions about how to make the HR20 menus easier:

A Dramatically Faster User Interface

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

So far 66% of us, want to be able to toggle Closed Captioning On/Off.

There is still time to take the poll if you haven't already.

- Craig


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## HDTVFreak07 (Sep 12, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I wonder if it is a stereotype that all hearing impaired households just turn on Closed Captioning and leave it on.
> 
> Would some might want the ability to quickly click CC "OFF" if someone leaves the room and quickly "ON" later when the return?
> 
> ...


Us "hearing impaired" people USUALLY likes to toggle the close captioning off during sporting events because many of us avid sports watcher likes to see more actions than reading. The captions also blocks the scores being shown on the top or bottom. If I see a referee stopping a play (during basketball, especially), I would like to be able to toggle the "cc" on to see what the call was. All other times, we just like to leave the cc on full time.


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