# OTA question from newbie to Dish



## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

I'm going to be moving - hopefully - to tiny town Iowa, about an hour north of Sioux City. I've been a DirectTV subscriber since 1995, but they don't carry the Sioux City locals in the zip code of that little town - gotta have my locals.

Dish DOES carry the locals - but for some odd reason they do not carry the HD feed of the local NBC affiliate. Ugh. Gotta have my HD. Don't know why they don't carry it, when they carry the HD feed of the other network locals. 

So - my one hope to avoid having to go with cable is that I can pick up the NBC HD feed over the air (what are the odds of that, 50 miles away? There's very little in between but farm land, LOL!) and that the 722 Dish DVR can record it OTA.

My question - how does the 722 handle OTA? Do you get the full scheduling capabilities, etc.? What do you lose if you're using the OTA with the DVR? This is NBC, so I would be using it a lot.

Thanks.


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

fudpucker said:


> My question - how does the 722 handle OTA? Do you get the full scheduling capabilities, etc.? What do you lose if you're using the OTA with the DVR? This is NBC, so I would be using it a lot.
> 
> Thanks.


The 722 handles OTA just fine.
If you sub to local channels, you will get guide data.
The only thing you lose OTA is Dish's over compression, which means a much sharper picture. You will be amazed at the difference. I am able to pull in all my locals OTA and I record OTA whenever possible.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

TulsaOK said:


> The 722 handles OTA just fine.
> If you sub to local channels, you will get guide data.
> The only thing you lose OTA is Dish's over compression, which means a much sharper picture. You will be amazed at the difference. I am able to pull in all my locals OTA and I record OTA whenever possible.


So how does it handle the guide data if the sub to the locals covers the SD NBC affiliate but not the HD feed? That's my problem. I need the HD NBC channel, but the locals subscription only carries the SD NBC channel (even though it carries the HD feed of the other networks.)


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> I need the HD NBC channel, but the locals subscription only carries the SD NBC channel (even though it carries the HD feed of the other networks.)


If the HD channel exists (as KTIV does), DISH (Tribune) will provide the guide data for it.

KTIV is owned by Quincy Newspapers for those who keep track of who's holding out.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

harsh said:


> If the HD channel exists (as KTIV does), DISH (Tribune) will provide the guide data for it.
> 
> KTIV is owned by Quincy Newspapers for those who keep track of who's holding out.


Super - thanks. (BTW - what possible reason would they allow Dish to carry their SD station feed but not their HD feed? I would think they would want Dish to carry both to get their station to as many people as possible, especially people only an hour away.)

So if I hooked up an antenna, does the DVR automatically pick up that this station is connected and provide the guide data? Not sure how this works. Anyone from Iowa here?


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

TulsaOK said:


> The 722 handles OTA just fine.
> If you sub to local channels, you will get guide data.
> The only thing you lose OTA is Dish's over compression, which means a much sharper picture. You will be amazed at the difference. I am able to pull in all my locals OTA and I record OTA whenever possible.


I am not disputing nor disagreeing with what you are saying. That said, my experience in the suburbs of DC is not the same as yours. My wife and I can not see the difference in OTA and Sat provided locals in our area. We have an excellent quality TV (Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD) which some would suggest would tend to magnify any compression induced picture degradation, but as I say we don't *see* the difference.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> So if I hooked up an antenna, does the DVR automatically pick up that this station is connected and provide the guide data?


You must go through a process to scan for available channels before any will show up in the guide. Very similar to what you would do with a standalone TV.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

harsh said:


> You must go through a process to scan for available channels before any will show up in the guide. Very similar to what you would do with a standalone TV.


Ah, OK. Sounds like I won't really know until I actually get everything installed, which kinda sucks. Or unless there's someone here who lives about an hour north of Sioux City who does this. 

Of course, I also am not an OTA expert and not sure what the odds are of actually being able to get the HD NBC feed from 42 miles away.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

fudpucker said:


> ...
> 
> Of course, I also am not an OTA expert and not sure what the odds are of actually being able to get the HD NBC feed from 42 miles away.


there are a couple of www sites that allow you to type in your street address and will return some form of indication of digital OTA signal availability.

antennaweb.com is one of them, however it doesn't accurately work for my home address. If I can find the site that does work (for my location) I'll post it. (I live in a small valley at the base of a hill. antennaweb.com predicts a good signal for both the guy at the top of the hill and also for my location. In fact, the neighbor has a good signal and I do not. (I am 12.2 miles from the transmitting antennas in downtown DC.)

EDIT: http://www.tvfool.com/ is the site I found more accurate *for my location.* You may want to try both sites!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> Of course, I also am not an OTA expert and not sure what the odds are of actually being able to get the HD NBC feed from 42 miles away.


If you can see the lights on the towers at night, you should be able to pick them up. 

I live about 50alm from my area towers and I get full signal on a beat up old rooftop antenna. I can see the towers from my dining room window. YMMV.

You could try it with a TV but I doubt it will make much difference a you'll either get them or you won't. The provider doesn't really change that.

Are you sure that you're not actually in the Sioux Falls DMA?

Is there any chance you could offer a zip code or county???


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## TSR (Feb 7, 2009)

If you would like to give a zipcode I will look up your DMA and tell you which channels you will receive, to include HD.


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## RASCAL01 (Aug 2, 2006)

fudpucker said:


> Ah, OK. Sounds like I won't really know until I actually get everything installed, which kinda sucks. Or unless there's someone here who lives about an hour north of Sioux City who does this.
> 
> Of course, I also am not an OTA expert and not sure what the odds are of actually being able to get the HD NBC feed from 42 miles away.


I live at least 45 miles from the OTA stations and I do not have any problem. I am just using a set top antenna...and we do not live on flat farm land:sure:


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## John W (Dec 20, 2005)

fudpucker said:


> Ah, OK. Sounds like I won't really know until I actually get everything installed, which kinda sucks. Or unless there's someone here who lives about an hour north of Sioux City who does this.
> 
> Of course, I also am not an OTA expert and not sure what the odds are of actually being able to get the HD NBC feed from 42 miles away.


This is a pretty cool place where locals communicate about digital signals. You'll see the link is to its beginning, you'll probably want to go closer to now at the end.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=209848


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

SaltiDawg said:


> My wife and I can not see the difference in OTA and Sat provided locals in our area.


That's too bad. My OTA locals are remarkably better than the satellite delivered local channels. Plus, the "trick plays" work as they should on the OTA channels.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

TulsaOK said:


> That's too bad. My OTA locals are remarkably better than the satellite delivered local channels. ...


Actually, not bad at all. We are 100% happy with *both* the OTA *and* the Sat provided locals video and audio quality.

We had our A/V setup calibrated (ISF) when we bought the Pioneer Elite PRO-150FD and consider both of ourselves somewhat discriminating with respect to video. (And audio for my wife - I have some hearing issues left over from many years at sea on Submarines. :lol: )


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

TSR said:


> If you would like to give a zipcode I will look up your DMA and tell you which channels you will receive, to include HD.


Sure, the zip code will be either 51041 (most likely) or 51031.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> Sure, the zip code will be either 51041 (most likely) or 51031.


I just got back from a memorial service for a gent raised in Hawarden.

According to the resources, you should be in the "small multidirectional" (set-top) class except for CBS and PBS and those should come in with a modest size outdoor antenna. I used the northernmost ZIP code.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

harsh said:


> I just got back from a memorial service for a gent raised in Hawarden.
> 
> According to the resources, you should be in the "small multidirectional" (set-top) class except for CBS and PBS and those should come in with a modest size outdoor antenna. I used the northernmost ZIP code.


Thanks for the feedback.

When I enter 51041 into the tvfool.com calculator, it seems to indicate that all the local networks are in the "green" category, i.e. should be set-top antenna "see-able." I suppose I'll just need to get up there (have to get the job first!) and hook up a rabbit ears to a digital capable TV and see.

A couple of related questions:

1. I assume that the DISH HD DVRs, like the 722 work the same way as the DTV ones, i.e. I enter the zip for the locals, it scans and finds the channels it can pick up off the rabbit ears and then finds the schedules and downloads them into the DVR? I'm still a little puzzled how that worked with the DTV receiver - it pulled schedules for local channels that DirectTV doesn't carry - so from where is it getting the information?

2. Is one TV top antenna (i.e. "rabbit ears") any better than another for OTA? I see all the hype on the boxes at Best Buy or online, but it's not clear to me how much is significant and how much is hype.

(Now that it appears I may have some options, I'll search elsewhere on these boards to see whether to stick with DirectV or switch to DISH -I've never even thought about switching until now!)

Thanks very much for the patient answers and guidance.

1. Since I've had DirectTV and the locals have always been provided, I've never even look at how the DVR works with OTA. So I experimented today: I hooked up a rabbit ears to my DTV HR-20 (HD DVR) and told it the zip code for the locals here (Kansas City)


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

Another question: can the 722 record two OTA shows at the same time? Or watch one while recording another?


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> ...Of course, I also am not an OTA expert and not sure what the odds are of actually being able to get the HD NBC feed from 42 miles away.


I get an NBC affiliate OTA ~70 miles away.

Enter your address below, to see the DTV (Digital Television) channels you may get OTA with an antenna:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> 1. I assume that the DISH HD DVRs, like the 722 work the same way as the DTV ones, i.e. I enter the zip for the locals, it scans and finds the channels it can pick up off the rabbit ears and then finds the schedules and downloads them into the DVR?


Actually, the ViP722 is considerably different from the HR2x series in that the HR2x series CANNOT scan for OTA channels. In both cases, the guide data is provided according to the ZIP code you provide (two with the DIRECTV receivers). It doesn't happen all that often, but every once in awhile you see DIRECTV customers looking to match ZIP codes to channels that they can't otherwise tune.

To get guide data for the DISH receivers you must subscribe to locals. I'm not sure how things work in markets like Sioux City that are not offered LIL at all by DIRECTV, but I'd assume they would provide them.

As you probably already know, don't give up your HR20 if you want OTA with DIRECTV.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

harsh said:


> ...As you probably already know, don't give up your HR20 if you want OTA with DIRECTV.


There is an AM21 OTA add on for newer HR2x DVRs that don't have OTA built in. In fringe/weak signal areas, the AM21 OTA tuners work much better than the HR20's tuners and any OTA tuners that Dish offers.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

arxaw said:


> There is an AM21 OTA add on for newer HR2x DVRs that don't have OTA built in.


A bird in the hand...

Experiences vary as widely with the AM21 as they do with the HR20 and the HR20 is less likely to experience the slowing commonly associated with adding the AM21.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

harsh said:


> A bird in the hand...
> 
> Experiences vary as widely with the AM21 as they do with the HR20 and the HR20 is less likely to experience the slowing commonly associated with adding the AM21.


True about the speed. Although the HR20 is hardly a speed demon, either.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

arxaw said:


> I get an NBC affiliate OTA ~70 miles away. ...


And I get no *reliable* OTA signals 12 miles away from the towers. Terrain and other conditions vary. Anecdotal info such as yours (or mine) is not an indicator of another person's likelihood of receiving a satisfactory OTA signal.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

SaltiDawg said:


> And I get no *reliable* OTA signals 12 miles away from the towers. Terrain and other conditions vary. Anecdotal info such as yours (or mine) is not an indicator of another person's likelihood of receiving a satisfactory OTA signal.


True. Post edited above.

(You must be using a dish OTA tuner  )


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

arxaw said:


> True. Post edited above.
> 
> (You must be using a dish OTA tuner  )


Actually, I use multiple TV Tuners with essentially identical results.

In my case here in the suburbs of DC it is the terrain that is the cause of my poor OTA digital reception. I have a good, directional chimney-mounted antenna with a rotor to allow peaking my reception signal.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SaltiDawg said:


> Terrain and other conditions vary. Anecdotal info such as yours (or mine) is not an indicator of another person's likelihood of receiving a satisfactory OTA signal.


We are talking about Iowa here.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

SaltiDawg said:


> And I get no *reliable* OTA signals 12 miles away from the towers. Terrain and other conditions vary. Anecdotal info such as yours (or mine) is not an indicator of another person's likelihood of receiving a satisfactory OTA signal.


I agree... There is definitely an Art to this and falls into your YMMV category. Both my 722 and 612's OTA are rock solid and I am about 20-30 miles away from Mt Wilson and have a lot of stuff between me and the mountain.

My advice for anyone doing OTA is look at what is being done in your neighborhood and if it is working for others then replicate. AVSForums also provide a great deal of local based OTA info that is worth looking at.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

harsh said:


> Actually, the ViP722 is considerably different from the HR2x series in that the HR2x series CANNOT scan for OTA channels. In both cases, the guide data is provided according to the ZIP code you provide (two with the DIRECTV receivers). It doesn't happen all that often, but every once in awhile you see DIRECTV customers looking to match ZIP codes to channels that they can't otherwise tune.
> 
> To get guide data for the DISH receivers you must subscribe to locals. I'm not sure how things work in markets like Sioux City that are not offered LIL at all by DIRECTV, but I'd assume they would provide them.
> 
> As you probably already know, don't give up your HR20 if you want OTA with DIRECTV.


Hmm. Another complication.

So - if Dish does not provide the OTA HD NBC feed, but does provide the OTA SD NBC feed (which is true for Sioux City) does this mean that I will only have the guide data for the SD channel and not the HD channel, even if I can pick it up with the antenna?

Also a good thought on the way DTV will handle local guide data for an area they do not carry. Although they provide local OTA guide data for channels in KC that they do not carry (for example, one independent station has about 4 digital channels and the guide shows for all of them, even though via satellite DTV only carries the one feed.)


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

If you get the local SD channel through Dish there is a good chance you will get the HD EPG guide info (Assuming they match up with the SD local). There is also the possibility you will get sub channel info, but that is very area specific. Some people posted the OTA mapping EPG info in the Dish OTA area. IF you do a advanced search and make the time "any date" for the Dish OTA and search for your area you might be able to find what is mapped and what is not. 

If not, By all means add it.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> Hmm. Another complication.


It isn't a complication if you've been paying attention rather than trying to campaign for the worst possible scenario.

If DISH carries locals, they carry the guide data for _all_ the locals. While there may be some isolated exceptions (like some obscure PBS subchannels), you should be covered for your precious NBC HD.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

harsh said:


> It isn't a complication if you've been paying attention rather than trying to campaign for the worst possible scenario.
> 
> If DISH carries locals, they carry the guide data for _all_ the locals. While there may be some isolated exceptions (like some obscure PBS subchannels), you should be covered for your precious NBC HD.


Yes, I'm trying to "campaign" for something - I don't even know what that means. All I wanted someone to let me know if what you said - if DISH carries locals, they carry the guide data for all locals, whether they carry them or not. The comment of the complication was in response to someone saying not sure if that was true.

"My precious NBC HD" - yeah, I guess a DBS forum is the wrong place to express concern for wanting to make sure you get the HD of all three major networks.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Not the wrong place at all... Like I said earlier. If the DMA locals SD is carried, I would be confident that you should get the guide info if you sub to your locals. I checked the Dish OTA forum and did not find a listing for your DMA. WHat is the DMA that you would be getting for your OTA?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

fudpucker said:


> "My precious NBC HD" - yeah, I guess a DBS forum is the wrong place to express concern for wanting to make sure you get the HD of all three major networks.


NBC (aka the Law & Order channel) is fourth among the Big Three in HD programming and picture quality.

It doesn't appear than the Sioux City subscribers are crawling out of the woodwork to offer testimony. If you happen up Sioux City way, you might look for a shop that sells DISH Network and see for yourself if the guide data for the NBC channel is there. If you can't go there, you might try calling or e-mailing a DISH retailer that advertises in that market and ask them.

As Ron has suggested and reiterated, it is very likely that the HD guide data is available for all primary channels.


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

Thanks for the feedback, to all.

Since I've asked for a lot of info, I'll add some info. I asked Dish and KTIV (Sioux City NBC affiliate) about the HD issue: Dish said, basically and generically, it's all about contracts and sometimes we have to work on it, etc.

I was surprised to get a reply back from KTIV's head engineer:

"As you probably know, Dish satellite was hard to contact and did not return our calls during the period that KTIV aired two Digital Ready tests. We were finally able to get them to switch to our digital signal so that the service would continue after our analog signal was discontinued.

The next step was to have them display our HD signal instead of our digital signal at standard definition. Our contract runs through June 31st and then our HD signal will be switched onto their system. Work is under way to perform the switch earlier by I cannot guarantee anything.

Richard Herr

Chief Engineer

KTIV TV, KTIV-DT

NBC and Siouxlands CW

[email protected]

Phone: 712-239-4100 Ext. #206"


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Engineers are our friends. They seem to be relatively immune to bureaucracy.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

... and calendars: "June 31st"


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