# DIRECTV HD Receiver with TiVo (Official Q1 2011 Thread)



## Mike Bertelson

Folks, there's precious little to say about the upcoming DIRECTV TiVo-based device that hasn't already been said, but here's the thread for you to say it.

Synopsis of common arguments: (in other words, this ground's already been trodden, do we have to go there again?)

Many people like the TiVo interface, especially the list guide. 
Many people are equally fond of the DIRECTV interface. 
Many people think that TiVos are easier for them to use.
Many people think that DIRECTV DVRs are easier for them to use.
Standalone TiVo devices have many features that are appealing to people. 
No guarantee has been made that any feature from a standalone TiVo will make it to the DIRECTV TiVo. 
The new device will run on DIRECTV hardware, although we don't know how that will work (we have some ideas). 
TiVo, Inc. will develop the software for the device and seems to be solely responsible for the user experience.
Ground Rules:

This is not a free-for-all. Rudeness will not be tolerated.
Remember that all forum rules are still in effect.
Do not "bump" this thread.
Other threads relating to the DirecTV TiVo-HD Receiver will be closed. 
If you harp on a particular point to the exclusion of others, your posts may be deleted.

Further, we've learned that the new TiVo for DIRECTV will *not* have the upgraded user experience seen in the TiVo Premiere.


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## Mike Bertelson

Follow the rules and discuss away.


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## hdtvfan0001

Here we go again.... :lol:

I'll start by anticipating we don't see a new TiVo HD DVR for DirecTV service until at least 2Q 2011. Then again, I'll likely know more in about a week.


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## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Here we go again.... :lol:
> 
> I'll start by anticipating we don't see a new TiVo HD DVR for DirecTV service until at least 2Q 2011. Then again, I'll likely know more in about a week.


I'm looking forward to reading you posts from CES. 

Mike


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## newsposter

the csr i talked to yesterday said coming in 2011...yippeeeeee


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## Doug Brott

newsposter said:


> the csr i talked to yesterday said coming in 2011...yippeeeeee


Yup .. Sometime in Q2/2011 .. probably early Q2

You might wanna hold on to that "yippeeeeee" until you get a chance to see what it's all about, though.


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## johns70

I don't really care.
Sold my TiVo DVR when I got my HR20 years ago, never looked back.


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## smiddy

This reminds me of an Oscar Meyer Wiener Commercial. My DVR has a first name, Direc. My DVR has a second name, TiVo. DirecTiVo!


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## ATARI

No more speculation form me until after CES (at which point there may be no need to speculate anymore).


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## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> You might wanna hold on to that "yippeeeeee" until you get a chance to see what it's all about, though.


YUP, YUP, YUP!!!

If the New DIRECTIVO doesn't work with WHDVR Service how will you feel about your New DIRECTIVO then???

And it may lack other Bells and Whistles also so you may not be as Happy as you think!!! :lol:


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## drpjr

Mike Bertelson said:


> ...... Further, we've learned that the new TiVo for DIRECTV will *not* have the upgraded user experience seen in the TiVo Premiere.


Does this mean that the new Tivo is being tested in the wild or just info from a spec sheet?


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## DogLover

drpjr said:


> Does this mean that the new Tivo is being tested in the wild or just info from a spec sheet?


I believe it was a quote from the TiVo CEO at a press conference or investor conference. Maybe more reliable than a spec sheet.

Though there have been some reports (about a month or two ago?) of people receiving invitations to Beta test the units. No reports of if the Beta has started or how it is proceeding. That's not unexpected, since they would be under a non-disclosure agreement.


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## newsposter

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. Sometime in Q2/2011 .. probably early Q2
> 
> You might wanna hold on to that "yippeeeeee" until you get a chance to see what it's all about, though.


these are my only requirements:

the same exact features as my HDtivo plus mpeg4. ie..namely more than 50 SP and ability to delete a show from other places other than todo.

thats all i'd need to make me happy. i'm not hard to please, but know i'm in the minority and you all want your gadgets


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## Richierich

newsposter said:


> Thats all i'd need to make me happy. i'm not hard to please, but know i'm in the minority and you all want your gadgets


Well, I like WHDVR Service and I don't think it fits into the Category of a Gadget and it is Very Practical and Functional and Useful so I can Finish Watching A Show or Game as I did last night when I Paused the FSU Football Game and finished watching it upstairs in my Bedroom.

If the New DIRECTIVO can't integrate with the WHDVR Service then I won't even give it a glance and I was a TIVOTEE or TIVOHOLIC but at this point in time Directv's DVRs have caused me to Forget about the TiVo Thingy.

It was Great in it's Time but it's 15 Minutes of Fame are Over!!!


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## tonyd79

"newsposter" said:


> these are my only requirements:
> 
> the same exact features as my HDtivo plus mpeg4. ie..namely more than 50 SP and ability to delete a show from other places other than todo.
> 
> thats all i'd need to make me happy. i'm not hard to please, but know i'm in the minority and you all want your gadgets


What's the second one mean?


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## gbubar

tonyd79 said:


> What's the second one mean?


I believe he is talking about the "50 Season Pass" limit.


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## tonyd79

"gbubar" said:


> I believe he is talking about the "50 Season Pass" limit.


No. That is his first requirement. Said there were two.


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## Guest

I wonder what DTV goodies we will see at CES 2011? Do they have press event at CES 2011?


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## Aridon

I'm not surprised about not having the extra features of TIVO premier. D* doesn't want any competition on their boxes. Unfortunately that means I could care less if TIVO comes or doesn't.

I'll go full streaming and Boxee sans D* or any other provider before i take another neutered box.


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## Doug Brott

The box is not neutered by DIRECTV. The Platform, GUI, and features are decisions made by TiVo.


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## Aridon

Doug Brott said:


> The box is not neutered by DIRECTV. The Platform, GUI, and features are decisions made by TiVo.


I highly doubt that. No way in hell you ever see Netflix or Hulu on Directv boxes. That isn't a TIVO decision. They aren't removing highly rated features on their newest TIVO for a D* box on their own.


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## sigma1914

Aridon said:


> I highly doubt that. No way in hell you ever see Netflix or Hulu on Directv boxes. That isn't a TIVO decision. They aren't removing highly rated features on their newest TIVO for a D* box on their own.


Those features are available on virtually all Blu-Ray players & new TVs...No reason another box needs them, IMO.


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## Doug Brott

Aridon said:


> I highly doubt that. No way in hell you ever see Netflix or Hulu on Directv boxes. That isn't a TIVO decision. They aren't removing highly rated features on their newest TIVO for a D* box on their own.


You're right there, but that's not going to be where the real complaints are.


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## DogLover

Aridon said:


> I highly doubt that. No way in hell you ever see Netflix or Hulu on Directv boxes. That isn't a TIVO decision. They aren't removing highly rated features on their newest TIVO for a D* box on their own.


Actually, the quote in this post give an indication that it may be Netflix and their agreement with the Studios that is to blame for the DirecTiVo not having the Netflix option, if it indeed doesn't have that option.


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## Steve

Aridon said:


> I highly doubt that. No way in hell you ever see Netflix or Hulu on Directv boxes. That isn't a TIVO decision. They aren't removing highly rated features on their newest TIVO for a D* box on their own.


So are those features available on the Cox, Comcast and RCN TiVO's? I'd be surprised if _any _ISP-partner of TiVO would cede their "on demand" revenues to Netflix or Hulu. Just my .02.


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## oenophile

Just my $0.02 to say: I would think that TiVo would know that it must make a product that is substantially better than the existing DirecTV DVR offerings in order to justify its higher monthly subscription fees. So, logic would dictate that the TiVo box, when it comes, will be better than anything DirecTV has to offer. Right? Or else who would use it? Right?

(I know, no reality checks: logic doesn't always dictate....)


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## hdtvfan0001

oenophile said:


> Just my $0.02 to say: I would think that TiVo would know that it must make a product that is substantially better than the existing DirecTV DVR offerings in order to justify its higher monthly subscription fees. So, logic would dictate that the TiVo box, when it comes, will be better than anything DirecTV has to offer. Right? Or else who would use it? Right?
> 
> (I know, no reality checks: logic doesn't always dictate....)


Logical yes.

Reality, not necessarily...


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## adam1115

Any speculation on whether the new TiVo will support MRV with existing HR2x?


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## Tom Robertson

adam1115 said:


> Any speculation on whether the new TiVo will support MRV with existing HR2x?


Lots of speculation... 

Another important question might be if TiVo doesn't support "feature x" on "day y", when will they support said feature.

Cheers,
Tom


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## bonscott87

Another quarter, another thread but no box. Same old same old for 2 years now.

Perhaps we'll all *finally* get some hard info at CES this year. 

Then again we all thought that *last* year as well. LOL


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## Richierich

bonscott87 said:


> Perhaps we'll all *finally* get some hard info at CES this year.
> 
> Then again we all thought that *last* year as well. LOL


Yeah, I had a lot of Smoke Blown Up My Ying Yang last year so you have to Filter out the BS from the Truth!!!


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## hdtvfan0001

bonscott87 said:


> Another quarter, another thread but no box. Same old same old for 2 years now.
> 
> Perhaps we'll all *finally* get some hard info at CES this year.
> 
> Then again we all thought that *last* year as well. LOL


For those holding their breath at a new HD Tivobox....

We'll check on what we can learn at CES...

But if I was a bettin' man...I'd bet you have months more of waiting pains...

...and those might be replaced eventually with "what the heck is this thing" pains thereafter.... :lol:


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## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> For those holding their breath at a new HD Tivobox....
> 
> We'll check on what we can learn at CES...
> 
> But if I was a bettin' man...I'd bet you have months more of waiting pains...
> 
> ...and those might be replaced eventually with "what the heck is this thing" pains thereafter.... :lol:


Do We Really Care Any More About a Directivo Box with No Bells & Whistles that probably won't be able to be integrated into the WHDVR Service??? :nono2:


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## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Do We Really Care Any More About a Directivo Box with No Bells & Whistles that probably won't be able to be integrated into the WHDVR Service??? :nono2:


Die-hard TiVo-ites will likely hold judgment until the darn thing shows up and shows off what it does and/or doesn't have included...which it will some day...that's OK. Nothing harmed with being disappointed later either.


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## Richierich

I will be surprised if they even have a Prototype to Show Us at CES 2011 but that would be interesting to see.


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## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> I will be surprised if they even have a Prototype to Show Us at CES 2011 but that would be interesting to see.


....especially if its one of those cardboard device units they use in furniture stores...


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## JosephB

I'm deathly afraid that the "New" DirecTiVo will just be a new software you download to an HR24 or similar and will be just as crummy as when Tivo shoe-horned their software onto Motorola boxes for cable companies. If it's not a real Tivo box with a DirecTV tuner stuck on the side, then I'm not really interested. And if that's what it was, it wouldn't have taken nearly this long to do.


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## Mike Bertelson

JosephB said:


> I'm deathly afraid that the "New" DirecTiVo will just be a new software you download to an HR24 or similar and will be just as crummy as when Tivo shoe-horned their software onto Motorola boxes for cable companies. If it's not a real Tivo box with a DirecTV tuner stuck on the side, then I'm not really interested. And if that's what it was, it wouldn't have taken nearly this long to do.


I'll have to search the previous thread but I'm pretty sure we've established that it will be a dedicated, branded DVR and not merely a firmware download.

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001

JosephB said:


> I'm *deathly afraid *that the "New" DirecTiVo will just be a new software you download to an HR24 or similar and will be just as crummy as when Tivo shoe-horned their software onto Motorola boxes for cable companies. If it's not a real Tivo box with a DirecTV tuner stuck on the side, then I'm not really interested. And if that's what it was, it wouldn't have taken nearly this long to do.


Calm down now...nothing to be *that* concerned about... 

We know it will basiclaly be a DirecTV piece of HD DVR hardware (not the HR24 model) with TiVo logo branding on it somehow. Beyond that, we also know TiVo is the one driving the firmware/software (and its capabilities or lack tereof) that will run on the new HD DVR unit (only). We also know it's almost 2 years late in being released. Beyond that...its all speculation.

Perhaps more "confirmed" info will surface at CES this coming week...


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## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We know it will basiclaly be a DirecTV piece of HD DVR hardware (not the HR24 model) with TiVo logo branding on it somehow. Beyond that, we also know TiVo is the one driving the firmware/software (and its capabilities or lack tereof) that will run on the new HD DVR unit (only). We also know it's almost 2 years late in being released. Beyond that...its all speculation.
> 
> Perhaps more "confirmed" info will surface at CES this coming week...


Yes, as we will be checking out the TiVo Booth as one of our Top Priorities along with looking for Directv Stuff.


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## Doug Brott

JosephB said:


> I'm deathly afraid that the "New" DirecTiVo will just be a new software you download to an HR24 or similar and will be just as crummy as when Tivo shoe-horned their software onto Motorola boxes for cable companies. If it's not a real Tivo box with a DirecTV tuner stuck on the side, then I'm not really interested. And if that's what it was, it wouldn't have taken nearly this long to do.


Close .. It will be on the same hardware (HR22) .. but it won't be anything you can download. It will all come as an integrated package.


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## Davenlr

Doug Brott said:


> Close .. It will be on the same hardware (HR22) .. but it won't be anything you can download. It will all come as an integrated package.


They based the new Tivo box on the slowest box Directv has? Wow.


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## Richierich

Davenlr said:


> They based the new Tivo box on the slowest box Directv has? Wow.


Well, when they started Development of the DirecTiVo the HR23 wasn't out yet so I imagined by the time it came out they had already begun development on the HR22.


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## RobertE

I predict that when (if) it ever sees the light of day, a vocal select group, I'll call the group T, rolls in and complains about how DirecTv crippled this, that and the other thing.

If it does not play nice with the current WHDVRs, it will flop like a fish out of water.


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## Richierich

RobertE said:


> I predict that when (if) it ever sees the light of day, a vocal select group, I'll call the group T, rolls in and complains about how DirecTv crippled this, that and the other thing.
> 
> If it does not play nice with the current WHDVRs, it will flop like a fish out of water.


I Concur that the New DirecTiVo will be a Big Flop or Disappointment and that Disappointment will be Blamed on Directv by the TiVotees and TiVoholics.

If it doesn't integrate into WHDVR Service which I have heard Rumors about then that would Indeed be a Deal Breaker as WHDVR has been a Big Winner for Directv in the last few months.

We'll see how this Plays out and I'll be very interested to see what TiVo Debuts at the CES 2011 for the DirecTiVo.


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## Doug Brott

That term has already been used.


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## JosephB

Doug Brott said:


> Close .. It will be on the same hardware (HR22) .. but it won't be anything you can download. It will all come as an integrated package.


My point is the same, though. Instead of a real TiVo with the full Tivo experience (I'd be ok with dropping Netflix/Amazon), it will be a kludge that is slow and missing features.


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## CuriousMark

JosephB said:


> I'm deathly afraid that the "New" DirecTiVo will just be a new software you download to an HR24 or similar and will be just as crummy as when Tivo shoe-horned their software onto Motorola boxes for cable companies. If it's not a real Tivo box with a DirecTV tuner stuck on the side, then I'm not really interested. And if that's what it was, it wouldn't have taken nearly this long to do.


The Motorola boxes forced TiVo to run as a java app in a somewhat sand-boxed environment and the processing power to support probably wasn't there. Problems with home wiring were widely reported, as were problems that seemed to be related to head end support (or lack of it). I think Comcast had a group of subcontractors doing different pieces and wasn't coordinating their efforts properly, but that is pure speculation on my part.



Mike Bertelson said:


> I'll have to search the previous thread but I'm pretty sure we've established that it will be a dedicated, branded DVR and not merely a firmware download.


The fact that TiVo's new remote for the Premiere and the new slide remote have the color function buttons supports this view. It also is an indication that the new box should support the DirecTV features that use those buttons. They aren't really used much on the premiere, so I think they were added mostly for the DirecTV and picked up for a little bit of use on the Premiere.


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## Brennok

I doubt we will hear anything at CES. If anything TiVo is known for not saying anything or showing anything publicly at CES. Last year they had the TiVo Premiere but it was only available via appointment and with a signed NDA. 

Even if the TiVo turns out to be nothing more than the SD DirecTiVo in HD, my friends will be happy since they never needed any of the other features DirecTV offers. I think most of them would have left DirecTV though a long time ago if Sunday Ticket was available elsewhere.


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## CuriousMark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Beyond that, we also know TiVo is the one driving the firmware/software (and its capabilities or lack tereof) that will run on the new HD DVR unit (only).


You and I will have to continue to disagree about that. I have shown that the feature set is defined by DirecTV with input from TiVo, I could do it again. A look at the development agreement posted in another forum even defines a change process where TiVo can request features beyond the minimum set by DirecTV and it also says that any feature must not require any support via internet not provided solely by DirecTV's head end.



> We also know it's almost 2 years late in being released. Beyond that...its all speculation.


Here we are in agreement.


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## CuriousMark

Davenlr said:


> They based the new Tivo box on the slowest box Directv has? Wow.


I am sure someone here will say that is by TiVo's choice. 

Perhaps DTV has lots of these sitting around they can't get customers to take and decided to unload them using the TiVo deal.

It is possible, but not necessarily likely, that TiVo will find a way to squeeze some performance out of these boxes that DirecTV can't since the DirecTV software architecture needs to run on so many different hardware platforms. If TiVo is porting only to this platform they may be able to port directly to the metal instead of a hardware abstraction layer.


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## Richierich

Brennok said:


> Even if the TiVo turns out to be nothing more than the SD DirecTiVo in HD, my friends will be happy since they never needed any of the other features DirecTV offers.


Gosh, I guess your Friends Do Not Require Very Much in the way of Technological Features then so why do they even need HD??? :lol:


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## Richierich

CuriousMark said:


> I am sure someone here will say that is by TiVo's choice.


Maybe at the time of the Directv/TiVo Agreement the HR22 was the Latest and Greatest HR2X Model available so TiVO chose that to base their DIRECTIVO Platform on and did not want to change requirements once the HR23 or HR24 Models came out as it would require too many changes and even further delay the project.


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## Brennok

richierich said:


> Gosh, I guess your Friends Do Not Require Very Much in the way of Technological Features then so why do they even need HD??? :lol:


Most of my friends and family who need/want large multiroom setups left for FiOS and settled for Redzone and incorporated multiple TiVos and Media Centers/extenders. Some also have slingboxes with friends in other markets. Some of us just don't watch sports so we left much earlier.

Those who are on DirecTV are mainly looking to upgrade to larger sets. Some of them already have 40" CRTs and with SD programming being centercut now going with a flat panel is a waste without going HD.

I don't even know what extra features DirecTV could offer them that they would be interested in. Most of their viewing is focused in one room so multiroom is a waste. Others are setup so each family member has their own TV and DVR.


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## Richierich

Brennok said:


> Most of my friends and family who need/want large multiroom setups left for FiOS and settled for Redzone and incorporated multiple TiVos and Media Centers/extenders. Some also have slingboxes with friends in other markets. Some of us just don't watch sports so we left much earlier.
> 
> Those who are on DirecTV are mainly looking to upgrade to larger sets. Some of them already have 40" CRTs and with SD programming being centercut now going with a flat panel is a waste without going HD.
> 
> I don't even know what extra features DirecTV could offer them that they would be interested in. Most of their viewing is focused in one room so multiroom is a waste. Others are setup so each family member has their own TV and DVR.


Ah, sounds very interesting.


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## CuriousMark

RobertE said:


> I predict that when (if) it ever sees the light of day, a vocal select group, I'll call the group T, rolls in and complains about how DirecTv crippled this, that and the other thing.


Group T is already here, trying to balance some of the misinformation set out by group D. 

No one has yet posted a single factual thing that would indicate that TiVo has control over the feature set of the new box. All I have seen so far is speculation from group D partisans that they believe it is a 100% TiVo undertaking, but never a single thing to back that up.


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## ndole

Prediction: Directivo will come into irrelevance <10 days after it comes into existence. It will shortly be dropped.


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## Richierich

CuriousMark said:


> Group T is already here, trying to balance some of the misinformation set out by group D.
> 
> No one has yet posted a single factual thing that would indicate that TiVo has control over the feature set of the new box. All I have seen so far is speculation from group D partisans that they believe it is a 100% TiVo undertaking, but never a single thing to back that up.


Can't wait to see your Posts here at DBSTALK.COM when the New DIRECTIVO comes out without a lot of Bells & Whistles.

I guess as Head of Team T you will Blame it on Directv tying the hands of the poor TiVo Team but I will definitely be watching your Posts with Interest to see what Spin you put on the DIRECTIVO Debut.


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## tonyd79

Brennok said:


> Most of my friends and family who need/want large multiroom setups left for FiOS and settled for Redzone and incorporated multiple TiVos and Media Centers/extenders. Some also have slingboxes with friends in other markets. Some of us just don't watch sports so we left much earlier.


An awful lot of work just to hear your DVR go "bleep, bloop, bonk."


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## Brennok

tonyd79 said:


> An awful lot of work just to hear your DVR go "bleep, bloop, bonk."


Not really when you look at the benefits.


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## mrlopez8

I Just hope it has TiVo to go so programs can be transfered to other TiVos and PCs.


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## Richierich

mrlopez8 said:


> I Just hope it has TiVo to go so programs can be transfered to other TiVos and PCs.


I would think it would have some Version of this or people are just not going to want to buy it.

It will be Interesting to see just what Bells & Whistles the New Directivo will have but hopefully at CES 2011 we will get some Info and perhaps a Demo of a Prototype or perhaps a Functioning Directivo if they are going to Release it in the next 4 months.


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## Chip Moody

After how many years of not having an HD Tivo option for DirecTV, I finally gave in and bought a pair of DirecTV DVRs. I'll probably run my lifetime sub S2 SA Tivo as a backup off a H21 until either the hard drive or power supply dies...

- Chip


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## tonyd79

"Brennok" said:


> Not really when you look at the benefits.


I don't see any.


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## bonscott87

mrlopez8 said:


> I Just hope it has TiVo to go so programs can be transfered to other TiVos and PCs.


I think that answer would be a definite 'NO".


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## Richierich

bonscott87 said:


> I think that answer would be a definite 'NO".


I AGREE!!!


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## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> You and I will have to continue to disagree about that. I have shown that the feature set is defined by DirecTV with input from TiVo, I could do it again. A look at the development agreement posted in another forum even defines a change process where TiVo can request features beyond the minimum set by DirecTV and it also says that any feature must not require any support via internet not provided solely by DirecTV's head end.


TiVo has chosen to NOT include features that DIRECTV would like included. You can make a guess as to what those features are.


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## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> It is possible, but not necessarily likely, that TiVo will find a way to squeeze some performance out of these boxes that DirecTV can't since the DirecTV software architecture needs to run on so many different hardware platforms. If TiVo is porting only to this platform they may be able to port directly to the metal instead of a hardware abstraction layer.


TiVo did a reasonably good job on there previous (crappy) platform. In general I think folks were happy with the performance so I would expect similar results on the new platform.

That being said, there are new issues that are outside of TiVo's control or new .. Such as MPEG4 decoding, Format switching and the ability for TVs to sync quickly on channel change. I'm don't know what TiVo's plans are there. If they force a specific format regardless of what you are watching, then maybe it will be OK .. If not, then expect to see some of the same kinds of channel changing delays.


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## Brennok

tonyd79 said:


> I don't see any.


Then you don't use your DVR as the front end for a gigantic media server.

It is very close to any show at any time in any place especially since the recordings are stripped of their TiVo container so they can be played on anything that plays MPG or whatever other format you choose to convert to.


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## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> I am sure someone here will say that is by TiVo's choice.


The HR24 wasn't around when the original decision was made. :shrug:
TiVo is the one that missed their deadline by 16 months.


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## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Group T is already here, trying to balance some of the misinformation set out by group D.
> 
> No one has yet posted a single factual thing that would indicate that TiVo has control over the feature set of the new box. All I have seen so far is speculation from group D partisans that they believe it is a 100% TiVo undertaking, but never a single thing to back that up.


Clearly there is some mutual arrangement .. I'll tell you now, the obvious things that DIRECTV will get involved in are things that would directly compete with them. Netflix (for example) is something that DIRECTV would not want on their box. Why would DIRECTV say to you "Hey guys .. how about spending some money with my competitor as I don't want it."? But once you get outside of things like that .. Don't think for a minute that DIRECTV is forcing TiVo's hand.

If you're suggesting my information is "misinformation" .. then so be it.


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## Doug Brott

mrlopez8 said:


> I Just hope it has TiVo to go so programs can be transfered to other TiVos and PCs.


I don't know here .. DIRECTV has this thing called NOMAD that they chatted up at the Investor Day presentation last month. It appears to be some sort of "to go" functionality from DIRECTV. So it's entirely possible that TiVo will also have some sort of "to go" functionality .. I'm doubtful, but it is certainly possible.


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## tonyd79

"Brennok" said:


> Then you don't use your DVR as the front end for a gigantic media server.
> 
> It is very close to any show at any time in any place especially since the recordings are stripped of their TiVo container so they can be played on anything that plays MPG or whatever other format you choose to convert to.


No I don't. But there are other ways to do that. Although I still don't think it is worth the effort. I have more to watch now than I ever will and don't have to rig up my own server. All my stuff is 100% plug and play and I have tons to watch.


----------



## CuriousMark

richierich said:


> Can't wait to see your Posts here at DBSTALK.COM when the New DIRECTIVO comes out without a lot of Bells & Whistles.
> 
> I guess as Head of Team T you will Blame it on Directv tying the hands of the poor TiVo Team but I will definitely be watching your Posts with Interest to see what Spin you put on the DIRECTIVO Debut.


TiVo is not "poor TiVo" and if DirecTV ties their hands it will be you and I and other customers of DirecTV that will we the poorer for it.

I honestly don't expect much of this box, based mostly on the comments of team D assuming some of them have some information that they are not allowed to share directly, but are leaking through various insinuations.

TiVo can bring a lot to the table for DirecTV, but DirecTV has to want it. It's the old, "you can lead a horse to water" story.

Based on my reading of the redacted agreement found here It seems that whatever features are included were hashed out through negotiations between TiVo and DirecTV. Given the box is now in Beta, and comments from the team D folk, the negotiations must not have gone well for including features that I personally would want to see. We won't know more 'till you get some decent info at CES, if you can.


----------



## Brennok

tonyd79 said:


> No I don't. But there are other ways to do that. Although I still don't think it is worth the effort. I have more to watch now than I ever will and don't have to rig up my own server. All my stuff is 100% plug and play and I have tons to watch.


What effort? All of this is done automatically for me. Other than occasionally updating a program or adding a show to the transfer list I have very little interaction with the process.

I also have more than I will ever watch but it is nice when there is nothing on. Most shows I am at least a season if not several behind on. This is especially true for stuff like the HDNet concerts, MTV Unplugged, Storytellers, and other various performance specials. For example I had a friend who I wanted to show something from the canceled show Do Over. I have it on my server. It isn't on DVD or Netflix and probably never will be like most canceled series.

I didn't build a server for this, I just added drives since my WHS does all my backups. As a result though it is over 10+ TBs and I haven't even started ripping my DVD/BR collection.

Mind you stuff like this is all after the $90 a month I save after going back to TiVo and dumping DirecTV for FiOS.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> TiVo is not "poor TiVo" and if DirecTV ties their hands it will be you and I and other customers of DirecTV that will we the poorer for it.
> 
> I honestly don't expect much of this box, based mostly on the comments of team D assuming some of them have some information that they are not allowed to share directly, but are leaking through various insinuations.
> 
> TiVo can bring a lot to the table for DirecTV, but DirecTV has to want it. It's the old, "you can lead a horse to water" story.
> 
> Based on my reading of the redacted agreement found here It seems that whatever features are included were hashed out through negotiations between TiVo and DirecTV. Given the box is now in Beta, and comments from the team D folk, the negotiations must not have gone well for including features that I personally would want to see. We won't know more 'till you get some decent info at CES, if you can.


If you want the HR10-250 with MPEG-4 support .. then everything went well. If you want more than that .. You'll be disappointed.


----------



## davidjplatt

Brennok said:


> What effort? All of this is done automatically for me. Other than occasionally updating a program or adding a show to the transfer list I have very little interaction with the process.
> 
> I also have more than I will ever watch but it is nice when there is nothing on. Most shows I am at least a season if not several behind on. This is especially true for stuff like the HDNet concerts, MTV Unplugged, Storytellers, and other various performance specials. For example I had a friend who I wanted to show something from the canceled show Do Over. I have it on my server. It isn't on DVD or Netflix and probably never will be like most canceled series.
> 
> I didn't build a server for this, I just added drives since my WHS does all my backups. As a result though it is over 10+ TBs and I haven't even started ripping my DVD/BR collection.
> 
> Mind you stuff like this is all after the $90 a month I save after going back to TiVo and dumping DirecTV for FiOS.


*If you don't have DirecTV why are you posting in this forum? Do you really care what TiVo for DirecTV does if you are a FiOS customer?

Give me a break!!!*


----------



## Brennok

davidjplatt said:


> *If you don't have DirecTV why are you posting in this forum? Do you really care what TiVo for DirecTV does if you are a FiOS customer?
> 
> Give me a break!!!*


Yes actually, because my friends and family turn to me about these things.

I have several people who are holding out for the HD TiVo on DirecTV since they refuse to leave over Sunday Ticket. They also are waiting to upgrade to HD as I mentioned earlier on the new DirecTiVo.


----------



## DirecTiVo

Yes, people, it's real.


----------



## Davenlr

If you have a magnifying glass or a 100" computer monitor, you might be able to see that small little picture.

Hmmm first post too....


----------



## Brennok

You could always click on it


----------



## Davenlr

Yea, I did. Looks like a HR21 on top of an AM21, with a tivo logo. Lets see some menu and guide shots, with time/date displayed...


----------



## Brennok

Davenlr said:


> Yea, I did. Looks like a HR21 on top of an AM21, with a tivo logo. Lets see some menu and guide shots, with time/date displayed...


I agree it doesn't look like much. I was just saying that since I thought the same thing when I saw the tiny pic in case you didn't click on it for the full size.

The logo looks like it might be a sticker also.


----------



## Davenlr

Looks legit as the case under the sticker appears to be the same as outside the sticker. But since no one doubts it exists, the point eludes me. I want to see the menu, guide (hd or sd?), and some other decent screen shots.


----------



## DMG

Doug Brott said:


> If you want the HR10-250 with MPEG-4 support .. then everything went well. If you want more than that .. You'll be disappointed.


If it were the HR10-250 with multiple-room viewing/whole house functionality, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with that.

Please remind me what other great features I'd lose compared to the HR2x series besides the small picture while navigating the menus. Perhaps the closed caption shortcut, but nothing critical comes to mind...


----------



## Doug Brott

DMG said:


> If it were the HR10-250 with multiple-room viewing/whole house functionality, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with that.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DMG said:


> If it were the HR10-250 with multiple-room viewing/whole house functionality, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy with that.
> 
> Please remind me what other great features I'd lose compared to the HR2x series besides the small picture while navigating the menus. Perhaps the closed caption shortcut, but nothing critical comes to mind...


It doesn't look like the new TiVo is going to have MRV. 

Mike


----------



## matt

Hmm...

In that pic, the last res light reads "1080i/p"

When did they slip that in there? :lol:

Sign me up, I don't care what it does and doesn't do, I wanna give it a try!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Bertelson said:


> It doesn't look like the new TiVo is going to have MRV.
> 
> Mike


Looks like some disappointment ahead....that, of course, would be a deal killer for many.


matt1124 said:


> Hmm...
> 
> In that pic, the last res light reads "1080i/p"
> 
> When did they slip that in there? :lol:
> 
> Sign me up, I don't care what it does and doesn't do, I wanna give it a try!


Guess some folks have never heard of Photoshop.


----------



## matt

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Guess some folks have never heard of Photoshop.


I dunno man, I might be starting to believe... remember that a member here had an H24-200 *way* before they were even in field trial? It's possible...


----------



## Steve

matt1124 said:


> I dunno man, I might be starting to believe... remember that a member here had an H24-200 *way* before they were even in field trial? It's possible...


Looks legit to me, but what do I know? :shrug:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

matt1124 said:


> I dunno man, I might be starting to believe... remember that a member here had an H24-200 *way* before they were even in field trial? It's possible...


Just toyin' with ya. 

The new HD Tivobox is real, and likely a 2Q 2011 unveiling (as others have posted before). There were plenty of posts of field trials being initiated several months ago already...so I would not be surprised to see one in the months ahead. The photo actually shows an HR22 shell of sorts, as previously anticipated by a few here.

What might be a surprise (to some) will be what is and/or what isn't contained within the new unit.


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> Looks legit to me, but what do I know? :shrug:


+1


----------



## sigma1914

Hmm, under the user name it says, "Duplicate User (Account Closed)."


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sigma1914 said:


> Hmm, under the user name it says, "Duplicate User (Account Closed)."


Someone's incognito...


----------



## sigma1914

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Someone's incognito...


Ahhhhhhh, ok!


----------



## Doug Brott

This will be my only public word on the issue ..

There is a DBSTalk Forum Rule:


> (s) MEMBER ACCOUNT, PASSWORD AND SECURITY - You will set your own password and account designation upon completing the Service's registration process. You are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of the password and account, and are fully responsible for all activities that occur under your password or account. *Members are not allowed to register more than one user name on the site under different addresses.* In doing so your accounts can be removed without notice with all posts removed You agree to (a) immediately notify the DBSTalk Administrators of any unauthorized use of your password or account or any other breach of security, and (b) ensure that you exit from your account at the end of each session. DBSTalk.Com cannot and will not be liable for any loss or damage arising from your failure to comply with this Section. Please do not use any passwords that you may use for other sensitive areas of the Internet or personally.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sigma1914 said:


> Ahhhhhhh, ok!


...not me by the way...don't carry that kind of clout here... :lol:


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> If you want the HR10-250 with MPEG-4 support .. then everything went well. If you want more than that .. You'll be disappointed.


Yup. Which is shame, it could be so much more.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

First of all that photo looks very fake to me. The TiVo logo is way too bright and the focus is too clear compared to the rest of the photo. 

I don't know, I think that CES will be the telling moment for the DIRECTV TiVo. If it's not there, I'm going to bet it's not coming.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> First of all that photo looks very fake to me. The TiVo logo is way too bright and the focus is too clear compared to the rest of the photo.
> 
> I don't know, I think that CES will be the telling moment for the DIRECTV TiVo. If it's not there, I'm going to bet it's not coming.


^ ^ ^
I'm with him on these views.


----------



## harsh

Brennok said:


> I doubt we will hear anything at CES. If anything TiVo is known for not saying anything or showing anything publicly at CES. Last year they had the TiVo Premiere but it was only available via appointment and with a signed NDA.


One could argue that TiVo's effort was significantly more substantial than DIRECTV's effort at CES 2010.

A TiVo demonstration may be DIRECTV's only chance to show something new unless they crowd into Morega's booth (MP25358) to show off the NOMAD.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> One could argue that TiVo's effort was significantly more substantial than DirecTV's effort at CES 2010.


*You* might argue that...but no one else that would have the facts would. 

1) DirecTV has not had a booth at CES for a number of years by choice. They appear in a booth location at CEDIA instead.

2) TiVo has their own meeting rooms onsite, and meet by appointment only there. They serve multiple partners.

3) Since TiVo has delivered nothing publicly to date on their partnered HD DVR "in the future"..there would be nothing to report upon or announce prior to CES 2011. In fact...having personally seen the TiVo presence at CES 2010 last year - it was a major bust.

3) DirecTV has personnel at all sorts of locations at CES each year - plenty of space all over the CES floor in those sites - many of us saw them at 4 different places in 2010 alone...and agendas, plans, contents, locations, and the like are not announced. Anything else is guestimation.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> One could argue that TiVo's effort was significantly more substantial than DIRECTV's effort at CES 2010.


One could also argue that DIRECTV's product effort was significantly more substantial than TiVo's effort in all of 2010.


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *You* might argue that...but no one else that would have the facts would.
> 
> 3) Since TiVo has delivered nothing publicly to date on their partnered HD DVR "in the future"..there would be nothing to report upon or announce prior to CES 2011. In fact...having personally seen the TiVo presence at CES 2010 last year - it was a major bust.


I wouldn't say it was a "Bust" because I got a Plush TiVo Doll and a TiVo TeeShirt!!! :lol:


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> First of all that photo looks very fake to me. The TiVo logo is way too bright and the focus is too clear compared to the rest of the photo.


Looks like Photoshop to me!!!

But who cares about a Photo I want to see Functionality, Screens, etc., what can this Puppy do for me over what I have with my Directv DVRs???


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, Mr. Rich, if the rumors are to be believed, it won't do much more than your old HR10-250, other than tune MPEG4 channels. That sure was a sweet DVR when you got it 7 years ago, but I'm sure you'd agree the world has moved on.


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well, Mr. Rich, if the rumors are to be believed, it won't do much more than your old HR10-250, other than tune MPEG4 channels. That sure was a sweet DVR when you got it 7 years ago, but I'm sure you'd agree the world has moved on.


Stuart, Great to Hear from you again and I Agree with you that we waited a Year for the HR10-250 to come out and then had a lot of Disappointments with the HDMI Port being screwed up, etc. but I Predict (like Swanni) that this New DirecTiVo will be a Bust especially if it is just like an HR10-250 with MPEG-4 and No WHDVR Service Compatibility.

TiVo took Too Long to bring this Puppy out and Now I am Very Happy with my 7 Directv DVRs and I was a TiVotee and a TiVoholic as some will tell you I was The First or One of the First People to Buy an HR10-250 and Activate it with Directv.

I hope it has a Lot Of Bells & Whistles but I wouldn't be at all Surprised if we are all disappointed with the Directivo but I hope I Am Wrong.

In the meantime, I will Enjoy My WHDVR Service with my 7 DVRs and not look back. WHDVR SERVICE is a Homerun in my Book that Directv has given us for $3/month.

What a No Brainer!!!


----------



## astrotrf

Let me just add my voice to those who will be perfectly happy with a DirecTiVo unit that does nothing more than the old SD units do. I've been holding off on HD just waiting for them.

I switched to D* from E* because the E* units I had were buggy and problem-filled. The E* forums here were filled with problem, quirk, and bug threads; I noticed that the D* forums had nearly *no* such threads. And, indeed, my SD TiVo units have been essentially problem-free for many years (about once or twice a year, one of them will freeze when I'm heavily using stop-motion frame-by-frame, requiring a power-cycle to recover). And that's 95% of the battle for me -- just reliably do what you promise to do, without missed recordings, blank recordings, playback failures, etc.

So as long as the thing has the same reliability, season passes, suggestions, and keyword wishlists, the box will be a winner for me. Any additional features over and above the SD TiVo will be gravy.


----------



## Richierich

astrotrf said:


> So as long as the thing has the same reliability, season passes, suggestions, and keyword wishlists, the box will be a winner for me. Any additional features over and above the SD TiVo will be gravy.


I have Reliability with my 7 DVRs and 350 Season Passes, Never Used the Suggestions as I didn't like it, Smart Search is getting better but needs to be further improved but with HD and WHDVR Service I couldn't be Happier but I know some people who are Happy with a 19" CRT with SD and an OTA Antenna so whatever Floats your Boat!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

astrotrf said:


> Let me just add my voice to those who will be perfectly happy with a DirecTiVo unit that does nothing more than the old SD units do. I've been holding off on HD just waiting for them.


This should meet your expectations then .. Especially since upgrading either way will probably not be free. I do wonder if there will be a premium on the TiVo service, though - that would be something to consider.



> ... And that's 95% of the battle for me -- just reliably do what you promise to do, without missed recordings, blank recordings, playback failures, etc.
> 
> So as long as the thing has the same reliability, season passes, suggestions, and keyword wishlists, the box will be a winner for me. Any additional features over and above the SD TiVo will be gravy.


Other than suggestions those features are available today and have been for a while (including the added HD) with the HR2x. The biggest complaint (past the overall look and feel) has been with the limit of 50 series links on the HR2x. That doesn't affect everyone though as not everyone reaches that limit anyway.


----------



## tonyd79

astrotrf said:


> Let me just add my voice to those who will be perfectly happy with a DirecTiVo unit that does nothing more than the old SD units do. I've been holding off on HD just waiting for them.


In other words, "I have been denying myself HD programming because of FUD on the internet."

I really don't understand your position. Why deprive yourself of years (now) of HD because you think the Tivo is the only answer to DVRing on DirecTV?

Then on top of it, you will be happy with a DVR that does LESS than the current fleet of DVRs.

Blows my mind, actually.


----------



## Richierich

tonyd79 said:


> In other words, "I have been denying myself HD programming because of FUD on the internet."
> 
> I really don't understand your position. Why deprive yourself of years (now) of HD because you think the Tivo is the only answer to DVRing on DirecTV?
> 
> Then on top of it, you will be happy with a DVR that does LESS than the current fleet of DVRs.
> 
> Blows my mind, actually.


+1. +1. +1 Gosh I think I actually wrote this Post!!!


----------



## cypherx

richierich said:


> Well, when they started Development of the DirecTiVo the HR23 wasn't out yet so I imagined by the time it came out they had already begun development on the HR22.


When Microsoft started development of Windows XP, there were PC's with 600 MHz CPU's and 128MB of RAM out there. Now to this day I see dual core 2.4+ GHz CPU's and 4GB of RAM on Windows XP. Sure Windows 7 is out, but there's still a lot of XP out in the business world.

So my point is, so what if they started development when the HR22 was in it's prime. It's software isn't it. Tivo doesn't make their own processors or anything... usually they purchase CPU's from Broadcom.

At CES this year TiVo's booth is private, suggesting there's nothing imminent that we haven't already been made aware of.

For me, it wouldn't be a bad thing if they could just download TiVo to an existing HR24 box. This way if you decided you hated it, you could just call and switch back. Who want's to buy a whole new box, and end up with something that potentially isn't as good.

And what is taking SO LONG, if they are just using the old Tivo UI, and it's not a download? I'm disappointed with Tivo, but I'll still keep my eye on this subject just out of curiosity. They seem to of did a good job with Virgin Media's implementation in the UK. They had Cisco make the triple tuner box, and the whole UI is in full HD. IMO Tivo has to do something like that to even make them a contender. With DirecTV developing an HD-UI, why wouldn't I just stick with that, along with MultiRoom? Provider's UI's are really starting to take a shift for the better this year. Verizon's IMG 1.9, Cox's Trio, and Comcast's Spectrum and J-Guide, and Rovi's new PassportHD are all very slick HD interfaces with new features that rival Tivo. So if Tivo releases the same old product, just with MPEG4 tuneability... i'll pass. Sorry Tivo, your loss, not mine.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cypherx said:


> At CES this year TiVo's booth is private, suggesting there's nothing imminent that we haven't already been made aware of.


You were doing fine until you got to the part above...

TiVo's booth is not a booth at all....and they have been private meeting rooms (by invitation only) for at least the past 4 years - nothing new in that setup.

Whether or not they have anything imminent to announce remains to be seen, and will be seen in just a few more days.


----------



## astrotrf

tonyd79 said:


> In other words, "I have been denying myself HD programming because of FUD on the internet."
> 
> I really don't understand your position. Why deprive yourself of years (now) of HD because you think the Tivo is the only answer to DVRing on DirecTV?
> 
> Then on top of it, you will be happy with a DVR that does LESS than the current fleet of DVRs.


Not FUD at all, but direct observation of the content of this very website.

I quite realize that TiVo is not the *only* answer, but TiVo has suggestions, which is a feature I find quite worthwhile, along with a comprehensive set of wishlist capabilities. It would take a lot more than something like multi-room viewing (a feature that is of no use to me) to make me want to give those up.

Realize that I've *used* non-TiVo satellite DVRs, albeit from E* rather than D*; I know well the frustration of unreliable operation. The near-total reliability of the SD TiVo units, all by itself, is a huge disincentive for me to switch to an HR-2x machine that fails to record, records blanks, and has playback problems (to name a few issues). While the frequency of those problems has been greatly reduced, it was *easy* to sit back and ignore the fancy new D* boxes for the first few years while scanning page after page of problem threads here.

Sure, I read the reviews of the new units when they come out, looking for compelling new features. I just haven't seen anything to date that makes me want to switch in lieu of simply waiting for the new DirecTiVo units. And you can be sure I'll keep the SD boxes until the new units have proven their reliability. (And I'll still have suggestions!)

I really don't need a DVR to do more than record what I want it to, with an ample set of selection features, and play it back with some trick-play capabilities, without fail. If that brands me atavistic, so be it.


----------



## newsposter

tonyd79 said:


> What's the second one mean?


if there's ANY other way to delete a show except thru the todo list, i'm all ears. I hate that i cannot delete it from the 'view upcoming' list and dont understand why it's so hard to program such a basic feature


----------



## newsposter

tonyd79 said:


> An awful lot of work just to hear your DVR go "bleep, bloop, bonk."


oh one other thing, i want the old Sony tivo animation back!



Doug Brott said:


> If you want the HR10-250 with MPEG-4 support .. then everything went well. If you want more than that .. You'll be disappointed.


finally, something in life that wont disappoint me! i'm thrilled!

really, i just need more than 50 passes, thats what is a the worst issue for me


----------



## Doug Brott

astrotrf said:


> I really don't need a DVR to do more than record what I want it to, with an ample set of selection features, and play it back with some trick-play capabilities, without fail. If that brands me atavistic, so be it.


In my personal situation .. I've had every bit as many recordings missed on the SD TiVo as I have on my HR2x .. Literally it's a wash on reliability for my particular situation.

Neither has been 100% perfect but both have been at least 98% perfect .. probably over 99.5% perfect .. from recording reliability.

So from my perspective .. to use reliability as reason to NOT use the HR2x is a cop out. If you don't like it (or think you don't like it if you've never really tried), then cool .. But expect to pay a premium on both equipment and fees to go with the new TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

newsposter said:


> really, i just need more than 50 passes, thats what is a the worst issue for me


I hear you on this one .. personally this issue has never, ever been a factor for me. But for others it's a cause for great consternation.


----------



## SledgeHammer

I always thought the HR10-250 was a super sexy looking box. I think its much nicer looking then anything DTV has put out since. However, I think I'm in the minority on that one judging from threads on here. Still, I doubt even if it looks like the HR10-250, I would PTT on it. DirecTV would be hard pressed to extract one more red cent out of me after the annual price gouging .


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> In my personal situation .. I've had every bit as many recordings missed on the SD TiVo as I have on my HR2x .. Literally it's a wash on reliability for my particular situation.
> 
> Neither has been 100% perfect but both have been at least 98% perfect .. probably over 99.5% perfect .. from recording reliability.
> 
> So from my perspective .. to use reliability as reason to NOT use the HR2x is a cop out. If you don't like it (or think you don't like it if you've never really tried), then cool .. But expect to pay a premium on both equipment and fees to go with the new TiVo.


I've never missed a recording on either a SD Tivo, HD Tivo or DTV box. NEVER. And I record a lot.

Actually... the only time I miss a recording is when the guide data is jacked up. Not sure whos fault that is. For example, CMT is often off by 15min to 1hr. So when I go to record The Dukes Of Hazzard at 4pm. I usually set it from 3pm to 6pm to make sure I get it. You know, cuz the 4pm showing actually starts at 4:38pm .


----------



## tonyd79

"newsposter" said:


> if there's ANY other way to delete a show except thru the todo list, i'm all ears. I hate that i cannot delete it from the 'view upcoming' list and dont understand why it's so hard to program such a basic feature


Thought that was what you meant and I wanted to let you know there is. Just highlight a program that is to record (in the guide, any list) and hit the stop button once. This will work with individual episodes of series or one time recordings.


----------



## DogLover

newsposter said:


> if there's ANY other way to delete a show except thru the todo list, i'm all ears. I hate that i cannot delete it from the 'view upcoming' list and dont understand why it's so hard to program such a basic feature


If the red button doesn't work, then the stop button will. I never remember which screens use red and which use stop. But it is possible from that screen. Either red or stop works from any list screen.

And of course you can also delete from the info screen of any episode, by selecting "episode options" and then "cancel episode"


----------



## tonyd79

astrotrf said:


> Not FUD at all, but direct observation of the content of this very website.


Uh, that is pretty much the FUD to which I spoke.


astrotrf said:


> I quite realize that TiVo is not the *only* answer, but TiVo has suggestions, which is a feature I find quite worthwhile, along with a comprehensive set of wishlist capabilities.


DirecTV DVRs do not have suggestions (which I hated) although they do have "You Might Like" on program info for shows you do like. (Tivo Suggestions were either so far off or so banal, I gave up on them after several attempts to use them over several years.

As for wishlist capabilites, there is a full boolean set that is beyond what my DirecTivos had without a hack. Standalone Tivos today have an interesting set of searches, but you were comparing to the old ones.



astrotrf said:


> The near-total reliability of the SD TiVo units, all by itself, is a huge disincentive for me to switch to an HR-2x machine that fails to record, records blanks, and has playback problems (to name a few issues). While the frequency of those problems has been greatly reduced, it was *easy* to sit back and ignore the fancy new D* boxes for the first few years while scanning page after page of problem threads here.


This, again, is the FUD I refer to. As someone else posted, I have had as many failures with Tivos over the years (and I had three. An SD DirecTivo, an HR10 and a Series 3 for Comcast). In fact, I had far more failures with the Series 3 side by side with a DirecTV DVR for about 18 months.

I know you claim you have had ZERO problems. Well, you would be either extremely lucky or forgetful. I know for a fact that the HR10's had a series of problems where it was dropping channels. I know you are saying you are using the SD Tivo and not the HR10 but those were Tivo units that EVERYONE with DirecTV had issues with on a couple of software upgrades.

One thing I have noticed is that as HD and more technologies (streaming, etc.) have entered the fray, DVRs are getting more glitchy. That includes Tivos. Trickplay is never as smooth with HD as it was with SD. You are going to have to get used to that. Tivo or non-Tivo.



astrotrf said:


> I really don't need a DVR to do more than record what I want it to, with an ample set of selection features, and play it back with some trick-play capabilities, without fail. If that brands me atavistic, so be it.


'record what I want it to' kind of flies in the face of suggestions, doesn't it? Suggestions are what the Tivo wants to record for you. But never mind.

Again, you have denied yourself YEARS of HD based upon DVR features and bugs that you think exist or do not exist. I am telling you this as a person who has used several DVRs on a regular basis for the better part of a decade now. DirecTivo SD, HR10, Comcast DVR, Tivo Series 3, Fios Moto box, DirecTV DVR. None of them are perfect and vary only slightly in features. But NOTHING compares between SD and HD.

That is where you lose me completely. Waiting on HD for a DirecTivo box is just out there, IMO.


----------



## tonyd79

DogLover said:


> If the red button doesn't work, then the stop button will. I never remember which screens use red and which use stop. But it is possible from that screen. Either red or stop works from any list screen.
> 
> And of course you can also delete from the info screen of any episode, by selecting "episode options" and then "cancel episode"


Stop always works. Red button seems to only work when it is on the screen as working.

Another tip for quick usage. You don't have to go into Manage Recordings to even delete a Series. If you see a program (in the guide or any list) with the triple R icon, you can hit the record button until it is gone and the series will be cancelled. The record button goes through single record > series record > no record at all.

BTW, working on both DirecTV DVRs and Tivos for years, I have yet to find anything that is a lot easier on the Tivo than on the DirecTV DVR since they revamped the UI based upon input from this forum. The most I can think of is the Todo list (Tivo - 2) but the DirecTV DVR method is not that much more. Most other items are much quicker and easier to get to on the DirecTV DVR.


----------



## Doug Brott

tonyd79 said:


> Trickplay is never as smooth with HD as it was with SD. You are going to have to get used to that. Tivo or non-Tivo.


Yes, the nature of MPEG4 will make trick play seem a little less fluid than MPEG2, but it's really pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. An MPEG4 TiVo will be afflicted by this as well.


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, the nature of MPEG4 will make trick play seem a little less fluid than MPEG2, but it's really pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. An MPEG4 TiVo will be afflicted by this as well.


I've never experienced a problem or slowdown with Trickplay due to MPEG-4 but I will have to look into it to see,

My Trickplay has always worked as advertised but maybe I am not that Picky.


----------



## bonscott87

tonyd79 said:


> That is where you lose me completely. Waiting on HD for a DirecTivo box is just out there, IMO.


No kidding. Heck, I gave up DVR completely when I first got HD *8 years* ago. There was no such thing as an HD DVR back then. HD trumps everything*.

And I agree, why someone has gone over 4 years now without upgrading to HD simply because of no Tivo is beyond me. I can't even think of such a thing.

If Tivo is the #1 important thing then get a Tivo HD and move to cable or FIOS.
If neither are available or DirecTV is a must due to Sunday Ticket or something, what harm is there in having an HR2x all this time just for the HD? Leave your SD DirecTivo in service if you must, but at least enjoy the HD for crying out loud while waiting for a new HD DirecTivo unit which may or may not come out. Only recently has it looked like it might actually make it in fact.
Heck get a non DVR H21 or something just for the live sports in HD then.

But to suffer with SD just to avoid an HR2x....:eek2:

* And this coming from someone who does OTA HD and Internet streaming only now.


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## ndole

It exists! :lol:


----------



## Davenlr

ndole_mbnd said:


> It exists! :lol:


Now THAT is funny.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ndole_mbnd said:


> It exists! :lol:


WOW....how cool is that!

The first photos of the much-rumored *KS* HD DVR....what a coup getting that photo.


----------



## Richierich

bonscott87 said:


> No kidding. Heck, I gave up DVR completely when I first got HD *8 years* ago. There was no such thing as an HD DVR back then. HD trumps everything*.
> 
> And I agree, why someone has gone over 4 years now without upgrading to HD simply because of no Tivo is beyond me. I can't even think of such a thing.
> 
> If neither are available or DirecTV is a must due to Sunday Ticket or something, what harm is there in having an HR2x all this time just for the HD? Leave your SD DirecTivo in service if you must, but at least enjoy the HD for crying out loud while waiting for a new HD DirecTivo unit which may or may not come out. Only recently has it looked like it might actually make it in fact.
> Heck get a non DVR H21 or something just for the live sports in HD then.
> 
> But to suffer with SD just to avoid an HR2x....:eek2:
> 
> * And this coming from someone who does OTA HD and Internet streaming only now.


+1. Excellent Post and Great Points you make.


----------



## dualsub2006

My brother has had a DirecTivo for years and years. He prefers my HR23-700. He has his own reasons for not going HD but he would in a heartbeat if in his own mind he could.


----------



## ffemtreed

bonscott87 said:


> No kidding. Heck, I gave up DVR completely when I first got HD *8 years* ago. There was no such thing as an HD DVR back then. HD trumps everything*.
> 
> And I agree, why someone has gone over 4 years now without upgrading to HD simply because of no Tivo is beyond me. I can't even think of such a thing.
> 
> If Tivo is the #1 important thing then get a Tivo HD and move to cable or FIOS.
> If neither are available or DirecTV is a must due to Sunday Ticket or something, what harm is there in having an HR2x all this time just for the HD? Leave your SD DirecTivo in service if you must, but at least enjoy the HD for crying out loud while waiting for a new HD DirecTivo unit which may or may not come out. Only recently has it looked like it might actually make it in fact.
> Heck get a non DVR H21 or something just for the live sports in HD then.
> 
> But to suffer with SD just to avoid an HR2x....:eek2:
> 
> * And this coming from someone who does OTA HD and Internet streaming only now.


To be fair I was in the same boat for about a year. Direct TV kept telling me that a HD tivo would be released *soon*. I waited about a year because I didn't want to get stuck with an HR box and not have an upgrade path to a TIVO. Even when I did finally figure out that the new tivo wasn't happening soon and i upgraded to the HR series every CSR I talked to promised me the TIVo was coming *soon*. Retention even told me they marked my account that I could get a free tivo when it was released, but that was over 2 years ago and I am sure they won't be able to find that note on my account even if it did exist.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

ndole_mbnd said:


> It exists! :lol:


Well done, and honestly, just as convincing as the other picture!


----------



## Richierich

ndole_mbnd said:


> It exists! :lol:


Nothing Like Good Ole Photoshop!!!


----------



## cbessant

I too have waited and waited... DTV treats customers like we live in Cuba. If they really cared, like the CEO seemed to imply on "Undercover Boss", they'd get on with the new TiVo unit. Or, just buy TiVO and corner the DVR market. IMHO, DTV has been deceitful with their customers. This whole process has been a mess and I bet we won't see a new HD TiVo unit in 2011. How do the execs slept at night knowing this is the kind of service customers get, and the messages they send to customers. As long as they get their bonuses, they really don't care about us, those who PAY their salaries and bonuses.

I have to use satellite if I want programming. I don't have cable or FIOS in my area. If I did have cable or FIOS, I can guarantee I'd dump DTV in a heartbeat - TiVo or no TiVo. DTV just doesn't care except for their bottom line, and how to line their pockets. :nono:


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## Stuart Sweet

:welcome_s cbessant!

Here I have to disagree with you. DIRECTV has a very serviceable DVR in its HR2x series. Just because it doesn't share every single feature with a TiVo doesn't make it bad. If DIRECTV had no DVR, or had a DVR that was incredibly insufficient compared with other service providers' DVRs, I'd agree with you. But in fact the HR2x is pretty decent. Does it do everything, absolutely everything, that I want? No. But it does an awful lot and does it well.


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## smiddy

cbessant said:


> I too have waited and waited... DTV treats customers like we live in Cuba. If they really cared, like the CEO seemed to imply on "Undercover Boss", they'd get on with the new TiVo unit. Or, just buy TiVO and corner the DVR market. IMHO, DTV has been deceitful with their customers. This whole process has been a mess and I bet we won't see a new HD TiVo unit in 2011. How do the execs slept at night knowing this is the kind of service customers get, and the messages they send to customers. As long as they get their bonuses, they really don't care about us, those who PAY their salaries and bonuses.
> 
> I have to use satellite if I want programming. I don't have cable or FIOS in my area. If I did have cable or FIOS, I can guarantee I'd dump DTV in a heartbeat - TiVo or no TiVo. DTV just doesn't care except for their bottom line, and how to line their pockets. :nono:


:welcome_s to the forums!

I think DirecTV does care, but perhaps not to your satisfaction. I think DirecTV is not being deceitful either. They have good reasons I'm sure for not giving any more information than what we already have. I also do believe it will be out by 2nd quarter 2011.


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## dualsub2006

"cbessant" said:


> DTV just doesn't care except for their bottom line, and how to line their pockets. :nono:


You say that like Verizon or a cable company is some great, shining example of customer care. I do business with Verizon and Insight Cable as well as DirecTV. I can say that without doubt, Verizon and Insight are both MUCH better at squeezing every single dime out of each customer that they can. Verizon is the absolute king of customer molestation and they do it in the interest of their own bottom line. Period.


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## Stuart Sweet

I think bad customer service is an epidemic right now and DIRECTV's is certainly nowhere near the worst.


----------



## astrotrf

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, the nature of MPEG4 will make trick play seem a little less fluid than MPEG2, but it's really pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. An MPEG4 TiVo will be afflicted by this as well.


That's not good news. Trick play on the SD TiVo is quite poorly done; it works, but has lots of glitches (like as not, hitting the "back" button actually jumps *forward*). I was rather anticipating improvement in this area; it sounds as though I may be disappointed.


----------



## bobcamp1

bonscott87 said:


> And I agree, why someone has gone over 4 years now without upgrading to HD simply because of no Tivo is beyond me. I can't even think of such a thing.
> 
> If Tivo is the #1 important thing then get a Tivo HD and move to cable or FIOS.
> 
> But to suffer with SD just to avoid an HR2x....:eek2:
> 
> * And this coming from someone who does OTA HD and Internet streaming only now.


I have a Tivo driving an H20 receiver in SD. Mainly because my locals are MPEG4 only. We tried an R22 and it promptly missed 5 recordings in one week for no good reason. The Tivo+H20 in the other room got all 5 missed recordings no problem. The R22 was also incredibly sluggish. I exchanged the R22 for two other HR2xs, realized the design was the problem, and returned them and used the Tivo.

TWC tried to get me arrested for cable theft, even though I was a D* subscriber at the time, so cable is out. FIOS just turned on TV service in my neighborhood, and I am interested in switching over. I'd have to buy a new Tivo, though. And D* is quite a bit cheaper than FIOS since I'm grandfathered in Total Choice, but I'd get a lot more with FIOS. I am keeping a close eye on it.

Since the HR2x's have supposedly improved over the past 18 months, I was going to try and get an HR24 and finally upgrade to HD this month. Alas, my car broke down, so that money is now going somewhere else. Maybe next year.

(I'm also not that impressed with HD in general. I don't know if it's my 20/15 vision or my sensitivity to motion blur, but I just don't see what all the fuss is about. To me it's only slightly better than SD.)


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## bobcamp1

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, the nature of MPEG4 will make trick play seem a little less fluid than MPEG2, but it's really pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. An MPEG4 TiVo will be afflicted by this as well.


Ummm... the Series 3 Tivos can record in MPEG4 and don't have trick play issues. Perhaps the inferior HR2x DVR has problems. 

My main concern is that the new DirecTivo is using the same crappy chipset and hardware as the HR22, so it simply can't be good. My other concern is that the Tivo Premiere has been a disappointment with its half-baked HD interface and reduction in stability (if you put the interface in SD mode, it works great).


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## Stuart Sweet

Not sure I'd call the chipset and hardware "crappy" but they're not as advanced as the HR24s, that's for sure. I believe the TiVo Premiere uses many of the same chips as the HR22.


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## bonscott87

bobcamp1 said:


> My main concern is that the new DirecTivo is using the same crappy chipset and hardware as the HR22, so it simply can't be good.


LOL when it's the same chipset that Tivo boxes use!  Which makes it even more curious as to the delay's since it's the same chipset in their own stand alone boxes.


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## Doug Brott

bobcamp1 said:


> Ummm... the Series 3 Tivos can record in MPEG4 and don't have trick play issues. Perhaps the inferior HR2x DVR has problems.


I think it all depends on your threshold of "problem." I personally don't think the HR24 has any problems and skipping forward or backward works as advertised. FF and REW show frames more digitally in MPEG4 than MPEG2 but it is virtually imperceptible. Having not seen a TiVo HD at all I can't compare, but my suspicion is that the results are similar. And no, I wouldn't remotely call it bad.


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## cbessant

When you announce a product and say "this when we'll deliver" (MPEG-4 TiVo) and then you yank support for the existing product (MPEG-2 TiVo), and then keep pushing the time-line out, that is bull. It wouldn't be hard to modify a current TiVo HD platform to work with DTV. DTV wants their own hardware for whatever reason, and to delay for 2 years is bull. They never should have said anything until they knew they had a real release date. This all about DTV's bottom line, and has nothing to do with the customer. I the customer were important, they'd have a new HD TiVo release.

I believe when you say the others providers are bad. This is what happens when you have a protected franchise licensed by a city gov't. No choices. I don't have a choice as satellite is my only option, and I knew that when we move to the country. I'd rather have choices between crappy providers than no choice at all. Sure, they nickel and dime you to death, not good. They all do. 

I'm thankful for 1.5Mbps DSL and access to 3Mbps wireless. I have a choice. 

:nono2:


----------



## Doug Brott

cbessant said:


> When you announce a product and say "this when we'll deliver" (MPEG-4 TiVo) and then you yank support for the existing product (MPEG-2 TiVo), and then keep pushing the time-line out, that is bull.


TiVo keeps pushing it out .. DIRECTV is waiting for TiVo to finish the product just like you are waiting. It's true that DIRECTV probably doesn't care enough to push TiVo hard on this, but short of pulling out the whip, DIRECTV doesn't have anything to do with the delay.



> It wouldn't be hard to modify a current TiVo HD platform to work with DTV.


You don't know this .. I'd say based on simple observation that your assertion doesn't even make sense. Clearly its "not easy" or it would have been done already.



> DTV wants their own hardware for whatever reason, and to delay for 2 years is bull. They never should have said anything until they knew they had a real release date. This all about DTV's bottom line, and has nothing to do with the customer. I the customer were important, they'd have a new HD TiVo release.


Again .. TiVo is where the delay is. DIRECTV and TiVo made the announcement that it would be ready at the end of 2009 (1 year ago, BTW) I expect it toward the beginning of Q2/2011 which will be 16 months after the "due date." But again, DIRECTV is (patiently) waiting just like the rest of us. The hardware portion from DIRECTV was available on the day of the announcement (september 2008). The software is what is taking so long and that is TiVo's responsibility.


----------



## tonyd79

richierich said:


> I've never experienced a problem or slowdown with Trickplay due to MPEG-4 but I will have to look into it to see,
> 
> My Trickplay has always worked as advertised but maybe I am not that Picky.


It works fine. It is a bit less smooth. SD is best. MPEG2 HD next. MPEG4 HD the most jumpy. Once you get used to it, though, no big deal. There was a LOT of adjusment on the DirecTV DVRs early on with MPEG4 HD trickplay. Then I found out that even MPEG2 HD has issues on trickplay with my HD Tivo I had for a while.


----------



## smiddy

cbessant said:


> When you announce a product and say "this when we'll deliver" (MPEG-4 TiVo) and then you yank support for the existing product (MPEG-2 TiVo), and then keep pushing the time-line out, that is bull. It wouldn't be hard to modify a current TiVo HD platform to work with DTV. DTV wants their own hardware for whatever reason, and to delay for 2 years is bull. They never should have said anything until they knew they had a real release date. This all about DTV's bottom line, and has nothing to do with the customer. I the customer were important, they'd have a new HD TiVo release.


When I talked to TiVo last year at CES (I won't be going this weekend, someone else can talk to them, if they are there) they were emphatic that they would be delivering during the summer 2010. This was TiVo...I had heard since that there were some problems on TiVo's end (software I think), which I'm uncertain of the specifics. Suffice it to say, it wasn't DirecTV who is holding them back.

While your statement is true, that the HR10-250 could be revamped to be compatible TiVo chose a different path, not DirecTV. DirecTV only has so much influence on TiVo to make design requirements, and keep TiVo within the DirecTV satellite line.

Your last sentence is unrealistic, especially if there are problems with development (I'm not saying there are), and TiVo wants to release a more finished product versus a half-completed-problematic-set-top-box. It will be done when it is done, patience is, as they say, a virtue.


----------



## bonscott87

cbessant said:


> When you announce a product and say "this when we'll deliver" (MPEG-4 TiVo) and then you yank support for the existing product (MPEG-2 TiVo), and then keep pushing the time-line out, that is bull. It wouldn't be hard to modify a current TiVo HD platform to work with DTV. DTV wants their own hardware for whatever reason, and to delay for 2 years is bull. They never should have said anything until they knew they had a real release date. This all about DTV's bottom line, and has nothing to do with the customer. I the customer were important, they'd have a new HD TiVo release.
> 
> I believe when you say the others providers are bad. This is what happens when you have a protected franchise licensed by a city gov't. No choices. I don't have a choice as satellite is my only option, and I knew that when we move to the country. I'd rather have choices between crappy providers than no choice at all. Sure, they nickel and dime you to death, not good. They all do.
> 
> I'm thankful for 1.5Mbps DSL and access to 3Mbps wireless. I have a choice.
> 
> :nono2:


You may not realize is that the only word DirecTV has ever said about it was the original press release some 2 and a half years ago that Tivo was building a new box. That's it. Any news and timelines/dates that have come out since then have all been Tivo talking. DirecTV hasn't said a word. And why would they, they can't tell you or me when it will be for sale until Tivo finishes it and delivers a finished product. Complain to Tivo.

As for the transition to MPEG4, I knew all about that about the time the HR10-250 (the old DirecTivo HD) which is why I never got one. I wasn't going to spend 800-1000 bucks on something I knew would be obsolete within 2 years. And the transition to MPEG4 has nothing to do with Tivo, but all about moving a direction the entire industry was heading (and still is) to MPEG4. Also they needed to light up 2 new satellite spots (99 and 103) which the HR10-250 could not tune to either (nor could any other old HD equipment).

Hate DirecTV all you want but Tivo was just caught up in the wash on the whole HD transition. As for not in the customer's best interest....ummm you do realize that DirecTV has had a very functional HD DVR for several years now. And more then half of their 19 million customers has one. Very, very few people are "waiting for a Tivo". So they have responded to their customer wants and provide them with an HD DVR. It's just not the one you want unfortunately. Perhaps if you got an HR2x a couple years ago while you waited you would have had HD all this time and perhaps grown to like it like many others have. If not at least you had HD while you waited.

Good luck to you.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

*Please allow me the opportunity to commend Doug, Stuart, Tom, Scott, and others for keeping everyone informed of what is happening on this front. That said, there are limits to what is known at any given time - this is a moving target.*

Note: I do not work for DirecTV, nor TiVo, and in fact was a former HR10-250 user years ago when the previous unit was an active device in our household. I have no personal urgency nor interest in this project...just a desire to learn like many others and share information if and when obtained.

*Regroup on the facts.*

1) DirecTV and TiVo announced an agreement in September 2008 that they would partner to release a co-branded HD DVR device that would work with the DirecTV satellite broadcast channel system. The announced goal was for a release some time 4Q 2009.

2) At that same time, the requirements and hardware platform (for development and testing) was provided to TiVo for them to proceed with the project. At that point, TiVo owned all work on the project.

3) Fast forward to 1Q 2010, where no signs of any finished product surfaced at CES 2010 last January. Soon thereafter, word got out that the project was delayed and now targeted for a "late 2010" release.

4) Recently, without any formal announcement, rumors of a 2Q 2011 release appeared in various posts and sites, along with notifications that TiVo was seeking a "2nd group of testers" for the new device. This seemed to confirm that the new unit was getting closer to some form of conclusion, and that it was far enough along that testing was being conducted.

5) During this lengthy timeframe, DirecTV has continued to advance their own fleet of HD DVR's with new models and new capabilities.

6) CES 2011 starts later this week, and a number of DBSTalkers will be there to make every attempt to learn an actual status from the TiVo meeting room personnel onsite. Since this area is closed to the general attendees, and typically requires a direct invitation to enter their rooms, this can be a challenge. Yet last year, several folks were able to gain access.

If any information is learned at CES 2011, those folks onsite will do their best to get the info and share what can be shared.

*Despite all the finger-pointing on the reasons or cause of any delays, and related confusion in this thread to date...again...a number of folks here have worked very hard to keep focus on these facts and the status as this has all evolved after a long period of time.*

*Kudos to them for the job they've done to date.*

*To be clear -* *TiVo owns this project until delivery, and a publicly-confirmed delivery date has not been announced*.


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## Doug Brott

The HR10-250 could not be used without hardware modifications .. It does not have an MPEG4 decoder on board. It really didn't make sense for TiVo to build from the ground up a new hardware device .. One could certainly argue that it doesn't make sense now that TiVo is using the previous generation hardware, but had they come out on time, it would have made a lot more sense. The 16 month delay is helping no one.


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## JBernardK

bobcamp1 said:


> Ummm... the Series 3 Tivos can record in MPEG4 and don't have trick play issues. Perhaps the inferior HR2x DVR has problems.


The series 3 TiVos are MPEG2. Cable and OTA do not use MPEG4.


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## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> The series 3 TiVos are MPEG2. Cable and OTA do not use MPEG4.


Yes, good point and I should have caught that as well. The big difference is between MPEG4 and MPEG2 .. but in the grand scheme of things it's a non-factor. MPEG4 trick play is not bad, but it is slightly different than MPEG2.


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## Sysyphus

Even if it does eventually get off the ground this year I think all the momentum has been lost and I, for one, almost certainly won't bother. We were pretty early adopters of the original Tivo, got Dtivos when we switched to Direct in '01, and paid about a grand for the HR10-250 when that came out.

Had there been a Tivo alternative to the HR2x when MPEG4 HD rolled out we'd have sold our first-born to get one, or two, but three years on we're now fully acclimatised to the HR2x interface and we have all the internet streaming capabilities we could want through our BD-players and game consoles so I really can't see us changing again at this point.


----------



## Richierich

Sysyphus said:


> Even if it does eventually get off the ground this year I think all the momentum has been lost and I, for one, almost certainly won't bother. We were pretty early adopters of the original Tivo, got Dtivos when we switched to Direct in '01, and paid about a grand for the HR10-250 when that came out.
> 
> Had there been a Tivo alternative to the HR2x when MPEG4 HD rolled out we'd have sold our first-born to get one, or two, but three years on we're now fully acclimatised to the HR2x interface and we have all the internet streaming capabilities we could want through our BD-players and game consoles so I really can't see us changing again at this point.


+1. My Feelings Exactly!!!

Why bother at this point when the HR2X DVRs work so well and we have WHDVR Service which the new Directivo may not and that definitely would be a Deal Breaker!!!


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## SledgeHammer

cbessant said:


> It wouldn't be hard to modify a current TiVo HD platform to work with DTV.


Major lolz. The TiVO HD is designed for CableCard. DTV is a completely different animal. Its more then a few lines of software change. The hardware is completely different and the software is oh, like 50% or more different.

Actually, since the last reliable rumors indicate its going to run on DTV hardware, the software is probably > 50% different.


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## cbessant

DTV contracted with TiVo and announced a product would be made available in Fall 2009. DTV moved forwarded in April 2010 and removed all MPEG 2 HD, and as I recall reading some place, except for hotels and college dorms (contractual stuff probably). And, the MPEG2 made a brief 1 week re-appearance on the TiVo guide in early June yet didn't work. Sure I know it was a program guide mistake.

The problem is, DTV is agent for TiVo, and I need to buy products from DTV, not TiVo - is this TiVo's fault? And while TiVo may be the hold-up, DTV hasn't done much of anything to provide information, only crickets in the background. This would be like Volvo announcing a car with a new gizmo, then delaying, delaying, delaying due to vendor delivery issues. Who gets the slushy thrown at them?

I too look forward to what is presented at CES. And, I do appreciate what DBSTalk can provide. Thank you. Obviously, TiVo and DTV aren't chatting this up a whole lot. DTV's first mistake was getting rid of a good product in favor of an NDS box (thank you Rupert Murdoch for several years of an inferior box because you had an interest in NDS), TiVo, when it did rather than moving forward. (Water under the bridge at this point.) 

I remember in the early 1990s when the new Denver airport was suppose to open. Someone was selling t-shirts with like 8 different opening dates with the previous ones crossed-out. I see an opportunity to sell more t-shirts...

We'll see if something is released in Q2FY2010.


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## ffemtreed

bonscott87 said:


> You may not realize is that the only word DirecTV has ever said about it was the original press release some 2 and a half years ago that Tivo was building a new box. That's it. Any news and timelines/dates that have come out since then have all been Tivo talking. DirecTV hasn't said a word. And why would they, they can't tell you or me when it will be for sale until Tivo finishes it and delivers a finished product. Complain to Tivo.


B.S. I have talked to multiple CSR reps and Retention Reps and was promised on multiple occasions that it would be out in a couple months or soon. You can argue that CSR doesn't know what they are talking about but that is still direct TV's problem of feeding false information. If it were just one CSR I would understand, but coming from multiple CSR's at completly different times in inexcusable.

To the people on here who think Direct TV simply gave Tivo a box and said get your operating system working on it and let us know when your ready to release it must be smoking crack!! I am sure DTV was involved in every step of the design process and the truth probably is closer to a 50 / 50 blame of why this thing is taking so long.


----------



## Richierich

Yeah, it's All Speculation about the New Directivo and we hope to find out everything we can at CES this week in Vegas and we will Report back as soon as we find out something one way or another.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ffemtreed said:


> B.S. I have talked to multiple CSR reps and Retention Reps and was promised on multiple occasions that it would be out in a couple months or soon. You can argue that CSR doesn't know what they are talking about but that is still direct TV's problem of feeding false information. If it were just one CSR I would understand, but coming from multiple CSR's at completely different times in inexcusable.
> 
> To the people on here who think Direct TV simply gave TiVo a box and said get your operating system working on it and let us know when your ready to release it must be smoking crack!! I am sure DTV was involved in every step of the design process and the truth probably is closer to a 50 / 50 blame of why this thing is taking so long.


If someone is relying on scripted responses from a CSR as their information source for the release of new technology...well...their likely gonna be disappointed when reality sets in.

Also...since TiVo is doing *all* the development work while DirecTV is *sitting in wait *for a long time (just like apparently a few folks here)...the only thing they could be guilty of is having too much patience.

Otherwise...despite your claims and views to the contrary...there is no physical way anyone but TiVo is responsible for the delivery time frame and delays to this point. That's been quite clear for some time now.

Perhaps after this coming weekend...the blame game critics will have some more accurate information and facts on which to base their frustrations...or else some calming news.


----------



## Doug Brott

cbessant said:


> DTV contracted with TiVo and announced a product would be made available in Fall 2009. DTV moved forwarded in April 2010 and removed all MPEG 2 HD, and as I recall reading some place, except for hotels and college dorms (contractual stuff probably). And, the MPEG2 made a brief 1 week re-appearance on the TiVo guide in early June yet didn't work. Sure I know it was a program guide mistake.


:scratchin

DIRECTV has (and has had for over 4 years) DVRs that work with MPEG4 .. Dropping MPEG2 in favor of MPEG4 has nothing to do with a TiVo DVR other than the current TiVo DVR doesn't support MPEG4. The number of TiVo HD DVRs in the field is not (nor has it ever been) substantial. It was diminished greatly as the HR2x rolled out. Keeping the MPEG2 HD for a small number of subscribers was detrimental to the subscriber base and DIRECTV's business plan.



> The problem is, DTV is agent for TiVo, and I need to buy products from DTV, not TiVo - is this TiVo's fault? And while TiVo may be the hold-up, DTV hasn't done much of anything to provide information, only crickets in the background. This would be like Volvo announcing a car with a new gizmo, then delaying, delaying, delaying due to vendor delivery issues. Who gets the slushy thrown at them?


perhaps it's not real clear, but DIRECTV only marginally cares whether or not the TiVo ever comes to fruition. The real purpose for DIRECTV to even engage in this relationship (again) was to keep everyone happy from a legal perspective and to keep open the relationship that DIRECTV and TiVo already had for maintaining the older products. While DIRECTV legally is on really good footing (as compared to DISH), DIRECTV took the extra step of negotiating an arrangement with TiVo. This arrangement included DIRECTV saying "Sure, TiVo, you can make an HD DIRECTiVo."

If TiVo brings it to the table .. DIRECTV wins (more subscribers) ..

If TiVo doesn't bring it to the table .. DIRECTV wins (they have their own HD DVR) ..

You're welcome to blame DIRECTV for the delay if it makes you feel better, but putting an halo on TiVo is just being blind to the facts.



> I too look forward to what is presented at CES. And, I do appreciate what DBSTalk can provide. Thank you. Obviously, TiVo and DTV aren't chatting this up a whole lot. DTV's first mistake was getting rid of a good product in favor of an NDS box (thank you Rupert Murdoch for several years of an inferior box because you had an interest in NDS), TiVo, when it did rather than moving forward. (Water under the bridge at this point.)


DIRECTV's HD DVR and receivers has always been in-house - not NDS. And as for it being a mistake .. DIRECTV has continued to gain customers quarter after quarter .. If it were such a mistake, then DIRECTV would be losing customers each quarter. The loss of TiVo has not damaged the bottom line of DIRECTV.



> I remember in the early 1990s when the new Denver airport was suppose to open. Someone was selling t-shirts with like 8 different opening dates with the previous ones crossed-out. I see an opportunity to sell more t-shirts...
> 
> We'll see if something is released in Q2FY2010.


Too many frustrations. I doubt the T-shirt would sell well, but you never know. As for Q2FY2010? :scratchin .. Look for Q2/2011 (calendar year, not fiscal). We're probably about 90 days out now .. give or take.


----------



## ffemtreed

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If someone is relying on scripted responses from a CSR as their information source for the release of new technology...well...their likely gonna be disappointed when reality sets in.
> 
> Also...since TiVo is doing *all* the development work while DirecTV is *sitting in wait *for a long time (just like apparently a few folks here)...the only thing they could be guilty of is having too much patience.
> 
> Otherwise...despite your claims and views to the contrary...there is no physical way anyone but TiVo is responsible for the delivery time frame and delays to this point. That's been quite clear for some time now.
> 
> Perhaps after this coming weekend...the blame game critics will have some further information and facts on which to base their frustrations...or else some calming news.


It is a sad day when the internet has become more reliable source than the corporations voice to its customers.

I still think that DTV has a lot more to do with the development of the TIVO than you think. If they don't , then I except TIVO to have netflix and tivo2go and a lot of the other bells and whistles that TIVO has on their other boxes. Or did DTV put unrealistic restrictions on what TIVO can or can't do with the box? Did they make it a lot more complicated to program the interface in order to create delays??? Not saying they did, just bringing up a few points that could easily be possible to show DTV has some culpability to the delay.


----------



## Doug Brott

ffemtreed said:


> B.S. I have talked to multiple CSR reps and Retention Reps and was promised on multiple occasions that it would be out in a couple months or soon. You can argue that CSR doesn't know what they are talking about but that is still direct TV's problem of feeding false information. If it were just one CSR I would understand, but coming from multiple CSR's at completly different times in inexcusable.
> 
> To the people on here who think Direct TV simply gave Tivo a box and said get your operating system working on it and let us know when your ready to release it must be smoking crack!! I am sure DTV was involved in every step of the design process and the truth probably is closer to a 50 / 50 blame of why this thing is taking so long.


Yes, there is cooperation in terms of DIRECTV documenting protocols, etc. Most of that was done long, long ago. DIRECTV also has requirements that need to be met from a quality perspective. But 50/50 .. if 50% is hardware and 50% is software .. yeah, DIRECTV was 50% of it .. but remember the hardware was available the day of the original press release 09/08. The "how to make it work" from DIRECTV had to ready or near ready at that point as well simply because DIRECTV already had it working themselves.


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## RobertE

Tivo is still trying to make buggy whips in the days of rocket cars (Jetsons).


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## RobertE

Doug Brott said:


> Too many frustrations. I doubt the T-shirt would sell well, but you never know. As for Q2FY2010? :scratchin .. Look for Q2/2011 (calendar year, not fiscal). We're probably about 90 days out now .. give or take.


$1 says you'd sell more T-shirts than the DTivo mkII. :hurah:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RobertE said:


> Tivo is still trying to make buggy whips in the days of rocket cars (Jetsons).


Amen.

(Love the Avatar).


----------



## Doug Brott

ffemtreed said:


> It is a sad day when the internet has become more reliable source than the corporations voice to its customers.
> 
> I still think that DTV has a lot more to do with the development of the TIVO than you think. If they don't , then I except TIVO to have netflix and tivo2go and a lot of the other bells and whistles that TIVO has on their other boxes. Or did DTV put unrealistic restrictions on what TIVO can or can't do with the box? Did they make it a lot more complicated to program the interface in order to create delays??? Not saying they did, just bringing up a few points that could easily be possible to show DTV has some culpability to the delay.


I'm sure DIRECTV would respond to questions TiVo may have .. Perhaps some of the delay is due to communication delays between the companies (always easier to work face-to-face), but that doesn't change the fact that TiVo is the one that wants this horse to run. DIRECTV has the subscriber with an HR2x or a TiVo .. TiVo only has the subscriber with a TiVo, so the longer it takes for them to get it out, the less time they have that subscriber and the harder it becomes to regain (lost) subscribers.

As noted earlier .. I'm uncertain about tivo2go now .. I doubt it will be there, but it could be. It will depend on DRM issues and is something that DIRECTV is legally obligated to maintain .. TiVo doesn't have to worry about it as much because they don't deal directly with the content providers like DIRECTV does.

Netflix .. Don't look for that to be there .. Again, as noted before, Netflix is a DIRECT COMPETITOR to DIRECTV with regard to renting movies. What company in their right mind would say "Here, buy something from my competitor .. We don't want your money." So even though TiVo is building the product, I'm sure netflix is out. One less thing to port over


----------



## CuriousMark

JBernardK said:


> The series 3 TiVos are MPEG2. Cable and OTA do not use MPEG4.


The series 3 and TiVo HD can handle MPEG4, they do so with Amazon downloads and Netflix streams. You are still correct that cable delivered video is still 100% MPEG2.

The TiVo HD and the HR22 use the same processor and decoder chipset from Broadcom.


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## ffemtreed

Doug Brott said:


> I'm sure DIRECTV would respond to questions TiVo may have .. Perhaps some of the delay is due to communication delays between the companies (always easier to work face-to-face), but that doesn't change the fact that TiVo is the one that wants this horse to run. DIRECTV has the subscriber with an HR2x or a TiVo .. TiVo only has the subscriber with a TiVo, so the longer it takes for them to get it out, the less time they have that subscriber and the harder it becomes to regain (lost) subscribers.
> 
> As noted earlier .. I'm uncertain about tivo2go now .. I doubt it will be there, but it could be. It will depend on DRM issues and is something that DIRECTV is legally obligated to maintain .. TiVo doesn't have to worry about it as much because they don't deal directly with the content providers like DIRECTV does.
> 
> Netflix .. Don't look for that to be there .. Again, as noted before, Netflix is a DIRECT COMPETITOR to DIRECTV with regard to renting movies. What company in their right mind would say "Here, buy something from my competitor .. We don't want your money." So even though TiVo is building the product, I'm sure netflix is out. One less thing to port over


You missed my point, My point was if it were totally true that DTV just said here is the box put your software on it and we have no further obligations just make something happen, why wouldn't tivo put all its features into it? The reason is because DTV does have a lot of say of what is and isn't going into the box and needs to approve of just about everything TIVO does with the system. You are absolutely correct, DTV has almost no motive to help TIVO along. I am sure they would love for it to never launch so they don't have to worry about training CSR's, field techs and etc. I am not putting any burden of the blame on either company, but I am not naive enough to believe this is all strictly tivo's fault and DTV has clean hands.


----------



## Richierich

ffemtreed said:


> You are absolutely correct, DTV has almost no motive to help TIVO along. I am sure they would love for it to never launch so they don't have to worry about training CSR's, field techs and etc.


Directv does have a Motive in having the Directivo launch as it will bring some TiVoTees and TiVoholics to Directv that are maybe thinking of leaving whatever service they have now and this may the the One Thing that forces them to leave and come to Directv!!!!


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## cbessant

Offer a product. Then cancel it. Then announce you'll offer it again and take a laissez-faire approach to product release and don't keep the customer informed. Can't blame DTV for using their own hardware, cha-ching for them, and then expecting a vendor to code software to run on it using their (DTV's) requirements/specifications. Did DTV really think customers would like this approach? Really? And whomever at DTV is responsible for managing this project - geez.... Glad the don't design planes or make iPods.


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## CuriousMark

ffemtreed said:


> You missed my point, My point was if it were totally true that DTV just said here is the box put your software on it and we have no further obligations just make something happen, why wouldn't tivo put all its features into it? The reason is because DTV does have a lot of say of what is and isn't going into the box and needs to approve of just about everything TIVO does with the system. You are absolutely correct, DTV has almost no motive to help TIVO along. I am sure they would love for it to never launch so they don't have to worry about training CSR's, field techs and etc. I am not putting any burden of the blame on either company, but I am not naive enough to believe this is all strictly tivo's fault and DTV has clean hands.


+1, well said.


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## hdtvfan0001

ffemtreed said:


> You are absolutely correct, DTV has almost no motive to help TIVO along. I am sure they would love for it to never launch so they don't have to worry about training CSR's, field techs and etc.


MMMMmmmmm...I suspect they'd be willing to accept more subscribers based on their undying lust for anything TiVo...seems like some form of incentive...


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## Mike Bertelson

Something is missing. !rolling


----------



## Doug Brott

cbessant said:


> Offer a product. Then cancel it. Then announce you'll offer it again and take a laissez-faire approach to product release and don't keep the customer informed. Can't blame DTV for using their own hardware, cha-ching for them, and then expecting a vendor to code software to run on it using their (DTV's) requirements/specifications. Did DTV really think customers would like this approach? Really? And whomever at DTV is responsible for managing this project - geez.... Glad the don't design planes or make iPods.


The old TiVo's still work .. In fact I still have a Circa 2000 SAT-T60 running in my house. It wasn't "canceled" but is no longer sold.

If TiVo was so concerned about using someone else's hardware (vs. creating their own), then why agree to the terms? DIRECTV (along with TiVo) announced that they had renewed their agreement (from years earlier) and that a new DIRECTiVo would be released by 2nd half of 2009. That didn't happen, but even if it had I don't think anyone really believes that the new TiVo would be taking the world by storm.

As for customers "liking the approach?" Most customers think the HR2x IS a TiVo .. DIRECTV hasn't been starved for customers throughout this delay regardless of who is to blame.


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## RobertE

Mike Bertelson said:


> Something is missing. !rolling


That would be this thing showing up in 2009. :lol:


----------



## Richierich

cbessant said:


> Can't blame DTV for using their own hardware, cha-ching for them, and then expecting a vendor to code software to run on it using their (DTV's) requirements/specifications.


Well, Nobody Held A Gun To TiVo's Head and said Sign This Agreement Or Else I'll Pull The Trigger!!!

TiVo knew exactly what they were getting into or they wouldn't have signed onto it.


----------



## cbessant

richierich said:


> Well, Nobody Held A Gun To TiVo's Head and said Sign This Agreement Or Else I'll Pull The Trigger!!!
> 
> TiVo knew exactly what they were getting into or they wouldn't have signed onto it.


Sure, TiVo made a business decision to do this, no one held a gun to their head. I am sure there is a lot more to this deal than the public will ever know. And, I'm relatively sure scope creep and other pressures were introduced as the project unfolded. Did TiVo sign a deal with "the devil" out of desperation for more customers? We'll never know the terms and conditions of the contract. TiVo had more to gain than DTV.


----------



## Richierich

cbessant said:


> Sure, TiVo made a business decision to do this, no one held a gun to their head. I am sure there is a lot more to this deal than the public will ever know. And, I'm relatively sure scope creep and other pressures were introduced as the project unfolded. Did TiVo sign a deal with "the devil" out of desperation for more customers? We'll never know the terms and conditions of the contract. TiVo had more to gain than DTV.


EXACTLY!!! It's not like the TiVo Executives did not discuss what they were getting into over and over again in Meetings as I have been in countless meetings like this and I just think they thought they could deliver because they needed the Money and found out it was more difficult that they had anticipated and perhaps wouldn't generate as much Revenue as they had Anticipated but don't Blame Directv because of this and the Fact that they Negotiated a Bad Contract!!!


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## Doug Brott

cbessant said:


> Sure, TiVo made a business decision to do this, no one held a gun to their head. I am sure there is a lot more to this deal than the public will ever know. And, I'm relatively sure scope creep and other pressures were introduced as the project unfolded. Did TiVo sign a deal with "the devil" out of desperation for more customers? We'll never know the terms and conditions of the contract. TiVo had more to gain than DTV.


scope creep? TiVo is leaving things out that DIRECTV believes would bring more value to the product. :shrug:


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## tonyd79

"richierich" said:


> EXACTLY!!! It's not like the TiVo Executives did not discuss what they were getting into over and over again in Meetings as I have been in countless meetings like this and I just think they thought they could deliver because they needed the Money and found out it was more difficult that they had anticipated and perhaps wouldn't generate as much Revenue as they had Anticipated but don't Blame Directv because of this and the Fact that they Negotiated a Bad Contract!!!


And, of course, TiVo never having to have to deal with someone else's specs and hardware was a naive waif in the whole process.

[sarcasm off]


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## Richierich

tonyd79 said:


> And, of course, TiVo never having to have to deal with someone else's specs and hardware was a naive waif in the whole process.
> 
> [sarcasm off]


EXACTLY!!! I don't think TiVo Executives are Naive but did what they had to do at that time to make a Deal to make Money!!!


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## hdtvfan0001

tonyd79 said:


> And, of course, TiVo never having to have to deal with someone else's specs and hardware was a naive waif in the whole process.
> 
> [sarcasm off]


Those of us who have followed the trials and tribulatons of TiVo for a long time also saw the Comcast box project debacle and late delivery, along with other TiVo bumps in the road.

Maybe that's why the element of surprise on yet another poor product delivery doesn't quite shock everyone the same way, if at all.


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## Mike Bertelson

"richierich" said:


> Well, Nobody Held A Gun To TiVo's Head and said Sign This Agreement Or Else I'll Pull The Trigger!!!
> 
> TiVo knew exactly what they were getting into or they wouldn't have signed onto it.


They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into, I say let 'em crash.


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## Richierich

Mike Bertelson said:


> They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into, I say let 'em crash.


EXACTLY!!!

I and My Wife have been Involved in at least a Thousand Board of Director Meetings where all of this Posturing is discussed with Numbers about Potential Earnings, Future Positioning, etc. so I don't think that TiVo Got Blindsided by Directv but did what they had to do at the time and now are making different decisions based on Current Circumstances.

I, for one, hope they can Deliver their Product soon but if it doesn't happen Life Still Goes On In The Richierich Home Entertainment System Arena!!!

God Bless!!!


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## bonscott87

ffemtreed said:


> You missed my point, My point was if it were totally true that DTV just said here is the box put your software on it and we have no further obligations just make something happen, why wouldn't tivo put all its features into it? The reason is because DTV does have a lot of say of what is and isn't going into the box and needs to approve of just about everything TIVO does with the system. You are absolutely correct, DTV has almost no motive to help TIVO along. I am sure they would love for it to never launch so they don't have to worry about training CSR's, field techs and etc. I am not putting any burden of the blame on either company, but I am not naive enough to believe this is all strictly tivo's fault and DTV has clean hands.


I think you're missing a big point.

Tivo and DirecTV agree on what will be in the box and did so most likely *prior* to the announcement 2 and a half years ago or shortly after.

Sure DirecTV has input as to what will be in the box. But after that is agreed upon, 2 years ago now, it's all in Tivo's court as to actually programming and building the thing. DirecTV is not doing any of the programming on it. So unless DirecTV kept coming to them every couple months with "add this, add that", your assertion that DirecTV is at fault here is unfounded or you don't quite understand how these big business agreements are done.

I'm sure it went like this:
DirecTV - It must support SWM, our interactive platform, VOD downloads, Internet connectivity, perhaps DECA technology and MRV. Oh, no Netflix or any Internet stuff, that competes with us. 
Tivo - Ok, sounds good. We're going to put in our swivel search and Tivo Kidszone.
DirecTV - Great. Here's an HR22, our latest hardware to put your software on.
Tivo - Excellent, we'll have it out end of 2009.
DirecTV - Good, let's announce our new legal agreement that we won't sue each other and that we have contracted you to build a new box and the estimated time.

.....time passes.....Tivo delays....Tivo delays....Tivo delays....

Pretty much that simple. 

Plus it falls right in line with every other delayed project Tivo hasn't gotten off the ground in time.
HR10-250...1 year late.
Comcast Tivo...2 years late and still not rolled out beyond a couple test markets
Cox Tivo...4+ years late and still not done

So what else are we to think except Tivo is at fault here since they are the common theme in all these delays?

Either way it doesn't really matter. It will come out or it won't. We'll each like it or won't. No big deal either way.


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## DMG

Doug Brott said:


> scope creep? TiVo is leaving things out that DIRECTV believes would bring more value to the product. :shrug:


Given your "hint" that Whole Home functionality is left out I think it is clear that TiVo doesn't understand that they are going to miss out on an important part of their target audience. I'm not going to switch back to TiVo and lose that capability. And if TiVo has their own such functionality that doesn't work with the HR2x series, that's a no go also. I'm not going to toss my existing devices.

Doug, you have me convinced that the blame for this has to be (mostly) laid at TiVo's feet. They've clearly been terrible at hitting dates in the past and there's nothing different this time.

I have to think that the people still working for TiVo aren't the top notch people that created TiVo to begin with. I've no doubt that the great people that worked there previously have moved on to other, greener pastures.


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## RobertE

Buggy whips...


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## Richierich

RobertE said:


> Buggy whips...


Sorry TIVO but you had your Chance but Your Horse Is Too Late Getting Out Of The Gate!!!

You Have Had Your 15 Minutes of Fame as they say but what have you done for us Lately!!! 

Oh, but Last Year I got a Plush TiVo Doll and a TiVo Tee Shirt with Beautiful TiVo Booth Bunnies taking their pictures with me but that was it and maybe it will be the same this year at CES 2011 but I hope not.

Hopefully, they will Introduce a New DIRECTIVO that will WOW US but I am Not Betting Money On It!!!


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## ndole

EXACTLY!!!


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## smiddy

So, what, no DirecTiVo yet? :scratchin :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> So, what, no DirecTiVo yet? :scratchin :lol:


Thanks for the setup...

**soon**


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## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for the setup...
> 
> **soon**


Gosh, I guess we are getting the New Directivo at the same time as the Nomad.....SOON!!!


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## smiddy

Sooner is better than *LATER*! :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Gosh, I guess we are getting the New Directivo at the same time as the Nomad.....SOON!!!


MMMMmmm.....not likely.


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## ATARI

richierich said:


> Beautiful TiVo Booth Bunnies taking their pictures with me...


Pictures or it didn't happen


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## Richierich

ATARI said:


> Pictures or it didn't happen


Oh it happened and that was the most exciting part of the TiVo Room and of course getting my Plush TiVo Doll!!!


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## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> Pictures or it didn't happen


I can vouch .. no pics necessary ..


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## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I can vouch .. no pics necessary ..


Ditto. 

We're hoping for better/worthy results over the next few days.


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## Richierich

In all seriousness, I Really Do Hope That They Have A Nice Directivo Prototype or Actual DVR To Demo At Their TiVo Exhibit Room as it would be nice to see what it is going to be all about.


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## AUDVIDMAN

They will not release the DTV TiVo until they finished the HD screens on the premier. I have a Premier about a year and still waiting for the updates. TiVo is short programmers to do this. Check out there Tivo tweets for help wanted programmers. TiVo also is having finical problems, thats why they are showing adds now. Look out for Cablevision new DVR it will put TiVo out of bizzness.... soon.


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## Stuart Sweet

Quite possible. I think that the Dish vs. TiVo fight is sapping a lot of their resources too. 

and... congrats on your first post here!


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## harsh

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think that the Dish vs. TiVo fight is sapping a lot of their resources too.


Court battles typically don't benefit from the application of engineers and programmers. In fact, I'd bet that the opposite is true.


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## Stuart Sweet

Perhaps I should be clearer in saying that the financial resources used in fighting that battle, combined with the continual delay in getting the money from that judgment to change hands, may have been a drain not only on the intellectual capacity of management, but has hampered the company's ability to effectively attract and develop new talent at a time when their projects are falling further and further behind. 

But I thought I said that.


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## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> Court battles typically don't benefit from the application of engineers and programmers. In fact, I'd bet that the opposite is true.


Are you suggesting that it's NOT a distraction?


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## cbessant

Doug Brott said:


> scope creep? TiVo is leaving things out that DIRECTV believes would bring more value to the product. :shrug:


Has DTV/TiVo ever disclosed exactly what features this new box will have? Examole: 3D would be new for TiVo, and if this wasn't in the original spec, and DTV added it as a change order, that would be scope creep for TiVo to develop.

It just seems if they're creating an MPEG4 HD unit with fewer features than the current TiVo Premier XL (this is just an example of an existing full featured platform) unit has, it shouldn't be a huge deal to port TiVo code to the DTV hardware, unless the TiVo code is a real mess.

I get that DTV wouldn't want Netflix streaming on it. The consumer needs to buy a TV or DVD player that supports Netflix, and the cost isn't all that much. It just means the consumer needs to have one more widget to plug into the wall and in the back of the TV - wires and real estate giving them a reason to grumble that the DirecTiVo box is lacking in features.

I have to believe that TiVo has very good developers and planners, they just need more subscribers and DTV would offer that exposure. They created a great DVR, and I don't think it was a fluke. It is just more expensive than the DVRs being offered by others. And if the others price their DVRs to be cheaper than TiVo, and the consumer isn't motivated by product differentiation and indifferent to TiVo or an HR24, price should be king. The consumer just wants a DVR, TiVo or not, is what I am hearing, and as such, TiVo will be the loser at the end of the day as consumers will be price sensitive and will go for the cheaper unit as the GUI/features are enough to motivate a more expensive product.


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## Doug Brott

cbessant said:


> Has DTV/TiVo ever disclosed exactly what features this new box will have? Examole: 3D would be new for TiVo, and if this wasn't in the original spec, and DTV added it as a change order, that would be scope creep for TiVo to develop.


I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying 



> It just seems if they're creating an MPEG4 HD unit with fewer features than the current TiVo Premier XL (this is just an example of an existing full featured platform) unit has, it shouldn't be a huge deal to port TiVo code to the DTV hardware, unless the TiVo code is a real mess.


Yes .. This is the $64,000 question .. Why is TiVo taking so long? We don't know. :shrug:

Your example of TiVo Premier XL is a bit flawed as it still has to work with DIRECTV's access card system .. The HR22 has all of the necessary hardware pieces without starting from scratch. The chipset in the HR22 is already a known commodity within TiVo. It seems like it should be a slam dunk, but the results aren't there.


----------



## bonscott87

cbessant said:


> The consumer just wants a DVR, TiVo or not, is what I am hearing, and as such, TiVo will be the loser at the end of the day as consumers will be price sensitive and will go for the cheaper unit as the GUI/features are enough to motivate a more expensive product.


This is the case. There are two things:
1) People just want to record and playback. They don't care about anything else, just a "digital VCR" is all they are looking for. Thus when even the crappy cable DVRs provide that Tivo is in trouble. This is very easy to see when Tivo used to own the DVR market many years ago. BUT today there are over 40 million DVR users out there and less then 10% of those are Tivo's and that number goes down every quarter while the number of DVR households goes up. If people really did care about DVR quality, don't you think they would have dumped the cable DVRs (or even Dish and DirecTV DVRs) for Tivo by now? The reality is that people don't care, they just want it to record and play back. Tivo will never "win" here and frankly as long as they charge more they will barely survive. And if they can't charge more then where does that leave them long term?

2) All DVRs are "Tivo" to people. People don't know the difference and they call their DVR a "Tivo". If you ask them if they would pay more for a Tivo their response is "ummm, I already have a Tivo, why would I pay more for that one?" Obviously this is just me but nearly everyone I know has a DVR now. Out of the couple dozen I have talked with, they think they have Tivo and none of them do and only half a dozen actually ever had a "real" Tivo back in the day with DirecTV.

So not only does the general public already think they have a Tivo, they are basically just looking for a digital VCR and if Tivo charges more...given the choice they will not choose Tivo and history over the past 6 or so years shows us this.


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## Stuart Sweet

Yes, I agree with Doug Brott that I'm not sure what's taking them so long. Working with many of the same chips as the Premiere, having access to all of the code for decrypting DIRECTV signals, and basically using 3-year-old hardware you would think that it would be pretty easy. 

As far as features, I would be very surprised if there were more functionality from the TiVo DVR than there is in the HR24. One or two features might impress us, such as having more than 50 season passes, but on balance I'd be surprised if anyone could say that the THR22 (or whatever it ends up being called) is really better than the DIRECTV DVR. On the other hand it will surely be more expensive.


----------



## cbessant

Stuart Sweet said:


> One or two features might impress us, such as having more than 50 season passes, but on balance I'd be surprised if anyone could say that the THR22 (or whatever it ends up being called) is really better than the DIRECTV DVR. On the other hand it will surely be more expensive.


50 Season Passes would be a bullet in the head. Sure, it is going to be more, just let the consumer decide if they want to buy it or not.

And yes, people think all "facial tissue" is "Kleenex". Sheeple are a scary lot.


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## Stuart Sweet

I'm actually in agreement with you. I think it would be great if the TiVo product actually came to market. I just don't know how many takers they would have.


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## erosroadie

Doug Brott said:


> I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying
> 
> Yes .. This is the $64,000 question .. Why is TiVo taking so long? We don't know. :shrug:
> 
> Your example of TiVo Premier XL is a bit flawed as it still has to work with DIRECTV's access card system .. The HR22 has all of the necessary hardware pieces without starting from scratch. The chipset in the HR22 is already a known commodity within TiVo. It seems like it should be a slam dunk, but the results aren't there.


I cannot see a TiVo software package being inserted into an existing HR2X platform. I say this for the simple reason that all of the DTiVo units I have owned have had the TiVo label embossed on the front of the machine. Would seem to me that TiVo would want a new, differentiated box, clearly labeled with their logo on the outside. It's part of their branding process. Same goes for their "peanut" remote.

Having said that, I would like to see true DLB as well as a true "Slow" button on the remote (don't personally care for the HR2X approaches to these issues).

Then again, I could be completely wrong&#8230;
:scratch:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

erosroadie said:


> *I cannot see a TiVo software package being inserted into an existing HR2X platform.* I say this for the simple reason that all of the DTiVo units I have owned have had the TiVo label embossed on the front of the machine. Would seem to me that TiVo would want a new, differentiated box, clearly labeled with their logo on the outside. It's part of their branding process. Same goes for their "peanut" remote.
> 
> Having said that, I would like to see true DLB as well as a true "Slow" button on the remote (don't personally care for the HR2X approaches to these issues).
> 
> Then again, I could be completely wrong&#8230;
> :scratch:


I suspect then that you'll soon being seeing most of that then for the first time. 

Fact is the HR10-250 was already mostly that.

A different remote or logo'ed sticker on a box relates little to the design of the hardware inside.


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## Doug Brott

Expect the peanut .. Expect the TiVo Logo on the outside of the box ..


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And you know, it wouldn't completely surprise me if there were a different faceplate on the same box, but I don't really know one way or the other. From there back, though, expect it to look identical to an HR22-100.


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## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Ditto.
> 
> We're hoping for better/worthy results over the next few days.


I believe you guys -- I just wanted to see the pics


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## hdtvfan0001

ATARI said:


> I believe you guys -- I just wanted to see the pics


If there are pix to be had....we'll certainly do our best.

But in the the TiVo folks at CES control all that.


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## erosroadie

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect then that you'll soon being seeing most of that then for the first time.
> 
> Fact is the HR10-250 was already mostly that.
> 
> A different remote or logo'ed sticker on a box relates little to the design of the hardware inside.


Sorry, should have been clearer...:scratch:

I cannot see a TiVo SOFTWARE package being inserted into and EXISTING HR2X box (like the occasional software updates we receive) because there is no TiVo moniker on the box nor is there a "peanut" remote.

The idea of the same box with a different nameplate and remote being used is quite plausible (like the old Chevy/Pontiac, Ford/Mercury production examples...oops&#8230;Pontiac is, and Mercury will soon be, history!!!). :eek2:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

erosroadie said:


> Sorry, should have been clearer...:scratch:
> 
> I cannot see a TiVo SOFTWARE package being inserted into and EXISTING HR2X box (like the occasional software updates we receive) because there is no TiVo moniker on the box nor is there a "peanut" remote.
> 
> The idea of the same box with a different nameplate and remote being used is quite plausible (like the old Chevy/Pontiac, Ford/Mercury production examples...oops&#8230;Pontiac is, and Mercury will soon be, history!!!). :eek2:


Thanks for clarifying...then the "surprise" won't be in play for you.


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## erosroadie

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for clarifying...then the "surprise" won't be in play for you.


Probably not. Though, if the new D*TiVo has the peanut, updated GUI and TRUE DLB and SLOW options, I might want to upgrade in the future if the cost is not exorbitant...


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## hdtvfan0001

erosroadie said:


> Probably not. Though, if the new D*TiVo has the peanut, updated GUI and TRUE DLB and SLOW options, I might want to upgrade in the future if the cost is not exorbitant...


Would you have the need to have it work with other existing infrastructure...such as Whole Home DVR service (MRV), DECA, and the like?

If so...there may be some gaps...hopefully we'll learn more soon on all this...


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## Doug Brott

erosroadie said:


> Probably not. Though, if the new D*TiVo has the peanut, updated GUI and TRUE DLB and SLOW options, I might want to upgrade in the future if the cost is not exorbitant...


I like my 90 minute buffers (2 if I so choose) thank you ... Your use of the word "True" doesn't ring true for me.


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## erosroadie

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Would you have the need to have it work with other existing infrastructure...such as Whole Home DVR service (MRV), DECA, and the like?
> 
> If so...there may be some gaps...hopefully we'll learn more soon on all this...


I currently don't use those features, so to me they would be superfluous. I'm sure others would covet them. My three HD DVRs seem to function quite well in their individual domains...


----------



## erosroadie

Doug Brott said:


> I like my 90 minute buffers (2 if I so choose) thank you ... Your use of the word "True" doesn't ring true for me.


"True" TiVo DLB to me refers to the fact that I don't have to do anything except toggle between two stations. It is the default (if you will) operation.

With HR2X's, one needs to enable the service first, and it turns off after a period of inaction. However, I agree that two 90-minute buffers do come in handy.

Guess there is no perfect DVR...


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## Richierich

erosroadie said:


> "True" TiVo DLB to me refers to the fact that I don't have to do anything except toggle between two stations. It is the default (if you will) operation.


Yes, I did like that on my HR10-250 where it was Automatic and you didn't have to do anything other than Toggle the Prev Button.


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## dsw2112

Doug Brott said:


> I like my 90 minute buffers (2 if I so choose) thank you ... Your use of the word "True" doesn't ring true for me.


Is it a fact that a new Tivo won't have 90 min buffers?


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## tuff bob

If the Tivo can let me type in a channel and it change to it right away, I'm in. I hate how the directv hd-dvr "goes to sleep" and seems to have extreme lag in responding to the remote, sometimes i have to type the number in 5-6 times before I get the right channel. So annoying.


----------



## astrotrf

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If there are pix to be had....we'll certainly do our best.
> 
> But in the the TiVo folks at CES control all that.


Why would the TiVo folks care if you posted pictures of their booth bunnies?


----------



## bonscott87

erosroadie said:


> "True" TiVo DLB to me refers to the fact that I don't have to do anything except toggle between two stations. It is the default (if you will) operation.
> 
> With HR2X's, one needs to enable the service first, and it turns off after a period of inaction. .


It's so hard to hit the down arrow one extra time to activate it? Wow. Not sure if that is worth more money, but whatever floats your boat.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bonscott87 said:


> It's so hard to hit the down arrow one extra time to activate it? Wow. Not sure if that is worth more money, but whatever floats your boat.


It's so tough. I should know. I do it every day. 

Mike


----------



## Adman1

Hi fellow D* fans. Longtime lurker, but seldom post.

Thought I'd weigh in on this discussion. But full disclosure first.

Longtime D* subscriber (15+ years) but left for cable a couple years ago due to the D* / TiVo divorce. Bottom line was that I liked my TiVo more than D*. But am fans of both. So yes, I'm a bit of a TiVo fanboy but not a D* hater. I've seen/used more recent D* DVRs and indeed they have greatly improved from the early post-TiVo days.

Also, I do not work for any of the companies involved, have any financial interest in them nor do I have any inside info.

But I'm very interested in this box. Have been closely monitoring and researching info on it. Would like to come back to DBS.

There are a couple comments people have made that I think may be incorrect. Plus I have a few guesses as to reasons for delay and possible feature set. In no particular order:

1) I don't think TiVo's financial situation has anything to do with the delay. Two reasons: D* is funding the software development against future revenues from the box. As I understand it, basically they provide the upfront seed money, get paid back for it via some formula when subscription revenues come in. This language is in the fine print of their contract. Secondly, even if above is incorrect, TiVo is sitting on $100+ million from earlier round win vs. Echostar. This money WAS transferred to TiVo. It is only additional money coming from contempt and additional infringement that is still being held up pending resolution at the appeals court. Their cash position is good (despite falling subscriber counts...different subject!)

2) Agree that the hardware platform and basic programming should be a relative pop-fly for TiVo. They're obviously very familiar with the processor and other D* hardware requirements. They also are very familiar with a majority of the software requirements for DBS and D*. Heck, they jointly developed the DirecTiVo -- the first of its kind -- from scratch. And they continue to support the existing DirecTiVos in use. They're been supporting MPEG 4 in their own standalone devices for years. So it's not this.

3) In TiVo's comments about this box, they've clearly said it will be a premium product -- with monthly revenues to TiVo significantly above the current estimated $1/month/box. Logical to assume then that there will be an upcharge for this device - above the current D* DVRs. Thus, there better be something more than Wishlists, Kidzone and TiVo Search to justify the price. 

4) As to the feature set? Again, this is speculation. But I think we can presume it will support broadband. This seems pretty basic. But remember, no (unhacked) DirecTiVo has ever had this functionality in the past. But with D* models having it and nearly all the competition soon to as well -- a no brainer. I think it will have to support multi-room D* functionality -- between TiVo devices and between TiVo and D* devices. Perhaps not out of the box but updated in a relatively short time. I believe it will have to support MediaShare or TiVo's home networking (iTunes and more). While I agree that it won't have Netflix, it should support YouTube, Flickr, Pandora, TiVo podcasts and more. While the device reportedly won't have the new TiVo premier interface, I am guessing that it will be set up to support this in a future update. Have no opinion on TiVo To Go. This involves content owners and contracts and i'm not sure how this will play. But if contractually possible, it should be included.

5) Regarding delays, I suspect two things: shortage of development labor and platform changes. It's quite clear that TiVo can't hire enough software developers right now. They have multiple jobs posted and have developments going on around the globe. They can't even finish the HD interface on the Premier. Bottleneck. But I believe the bottleneck is highly influenced by platform integration. I am not a developer - so have no educated knowledge of this. But both D* and TiVo have made significant changes to their existing code and functionality. Lots of new D* functionality. Lots of new TiVo functionality. TiVo, in particular, rewrote/relaunched their platform to support Flash for the TiVo Premier and presumably multiple other deployments across the world. I am guessing that TiVo might prefer to use this new platform for the HD DirecTiVo for the ability to make significant enhancements in the future. Getting the platforms integrated may be a lot more difficult than expected. No one's fault, so to speak. 

6) Bonscott, completely agree with you. People want a basic digital VCR that works well. Thus, this DirecTiVo will be absolutely dead in the water if it does not deliver a premium experience. Consumers will not pay an upcharge for a basic unit. However, once consumers experience the "wow" of an enhanced experience, many will trade up. (I still can't believe 3-D TV is selling!) So, I believe if TiVo DOES deliver a premium experience, combined with their brand name, this product will sell.

My guesses may be wrong. Will be very interesting to see how this plays out. I'm hoping for the best whenever the heck it arrives -- for both companies. I'll likely be disappointed!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

astrotrf said:


> Why would the TiVo folks care if you posted pictures of their booth bunnies?


They weren't that great either... :lol:

Other stuff...they control quite carefully...even room access.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Adman1 said:


> Hi fellow D* fans. Longtime lurker, but seldom post.
> 
> Thought I'd weigh in on this discussion. But full disclosure first.
> 
> Longtime D* subscriber (15+ years) but left for cable a couple years ago due to the D* / TiVo divorce. Bottom line was that I liked my TiVo more than D*. But am fans of both. So yes, I'm a bit of a TiVo fanboy but not a D* hater. I've seen/used more recent D* DVRs and indeed they have greatly improved from the early post-TiVo days.
> 
> Also, I do not work for any of the companies involved, have any financial interest in them nor do I have any inside info.
> 
> But I'm very interested in this box. Have been closely monitoring and researching info on it. Would like to come back to DBS.
> 
> There are a couple comments people have made that I think may be incorrect. Plus I have a few guesses as to reasons for delay and possible feature set. In no particular order:
> 
> 1) I don't think TiVo's financial situation has anything to do with the delay. Two reasons: D* is funding the software development against future revenues from the box. As I understand it, basically they provide the upfront seed money, get paid back for it via some formula when subscription revenues come in. This language is in the fine print of their contract. Secondly, even if above is incorrect, TiVo is sitting on $100+ million from earlier round win vs. Echostar. This money WAS transferred to TiVo. It is only additional money coming from contempt and additional infringement that is still being held up pending resolution at the appeals court. Their cash position is good (despite falling subscriber counts...different subject!)
> 
> 2) Agree that the hardware platform and basic programming should be a relative pop-fly for TiVo. They're obviously very familiar with the processor and other D* hardware requirements. They also are very familiar with a majority of the software requirements for DBS and D*. Heck, they jointly developed the DirecTiVo -- the first of its kind -- from scratch. And they continue to support the existing DirecTiVos in use. They're been supporting MPEG 4 in their own standalone devices for years. So it's not this.
> 
> 3) In TiVo's comments about this box, they've clearly said it will be a premium product -- with monthly revenues to TiVo significantly above the current estimated $1/month/box. Logical to assume then that there will be an upcharge for this device - above the current D* DVRs. Thus, there better be something more than Wishlists, Kidzone and TiVo Search to justify the price.
> 
> 4) As to the feature set? Again, this is speculation. But I think we can presume it will support broadband. This seems pretty basic. But remember, no (unhacked) DirecTiVo has ever had this functionality in the past. But with D* models having it and nearly all the competition soon to as well -- a no brainer. I think it will have to support multi-room D* functionality -- between TiVo devices and between TiVo and D* devices. Perhaps not out of the box but updated in a relatively short time. I believe it will have to support MediaShare or TiVo's home networking (iTunes and more). While I agree that it won't have Netflix, it should support YouTube, Flickr, Pandora, TiVo podcasts and more. While the device reportedly won't have the new TiVo premier interface, I am guessing that it will be set up to support this in a future update. Have no opinion on TiVo To Go. This involves content owners and contracts and i'm not sure how this will play. But if contractually possible, it should be included.
> 
> 5) Regarding delays, I suspect two things: shortage of development labor and platform changes. It's quite clear that TiVo can't hire enough software developers right now. They have multiple jobs posted and have developments going on around the globe. They can't even finish the HD interface on the Premier. Bottleneck. But I believe the bottleneck is highly influenced by platform integration. I am not a developer - so have no educated knowledge of this. But both D* and TiVo have made significant changes to their existing code and functionality. Lots of new D* functionality. Lots of new TiVo functionality. TiVo, in particular, rewrote/relaunched their platform to support Flash for the TiVo Premier and presumably multiple other deployments across the world. I am guessing that TiVo might prefer to use this new platform for the HD DirecTiVo for the ability to make significant enhancements in the future. Getting the platforms integrated may be a lot more difficult than expected. No one's fault, so to speak.
> 
> 6) Bonscott, completely agree with you. People want a basic digital VCR that works well. Thus, this DirecTiVo will be absolutely dead in the water if it does not deliver a premium experience. Consumers will not pay an upcharge for a basic unit. However, once consumers experience the "wow" of an enhanced experience, many will trade up. (I still can't believe 3-D TV is selling!) So, I believe if TiVo DOES deliver a premium experience, combined with their brand name, this product will sell.
> 
> My guesses may be wrong. Will be very interesting to see how this plays out. I'm hoping for the best whenever the heck it arrives -- for both companies. I'll likely be disappointed!


Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

Nice first post. Interesting and well thought out...particularly the "Regarding delays" paragraph. While we will never know the truth, your theory makes sense. 

Mike


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## Shades228

If TiVo is attempting to keep up with DirecTV compatibility then they'll never get it out. At some point they need to say here it is. It's possible it was delayed further due to the advent of WHDVR but I still think that TiVo keeps delaying it because they don't have the resources to work on both projects and their stand alones are taking priority.


----------



## bidger

Adman1 said:


> Longtime D* subscriber (15+ years) but left for cable a couple years ago due to the D* / TiVo divorce. Bottom line was that I liked my TiVo more than D*. But am fans of both. So yes, I'm a bit of a TiVo fanboy but not a D* hater.


I can respect someone who knows what they want and sets about getting it.



Adman1 said:


> 3) In TiVo's comments about this box, they've clearly said it will be a premium product -- with monthly revenues to TiVo significantly above the current estimated $1/month/box. Logical to assume then that there will be an upcharge for this device - above the current D* DVRs. Thus, there better be something more than Wishlists, Kidzone and TiVo Search to justify the price.


That's a puzzler. What can Tivo offer to substantially differentiate their offering and acquire enough subscribers to justify the rollout? If they can pull it off, it would be huge. But they used the tagline "reinvent the DVR" for the Premiere debut and a lot of folks felt that was an overstatement. If it's that groundbreaking it would have to debut on their own DVRs first.


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## JoeTheDragon

bidger said:


> I can respect someone who knows what they want and sets about getting it.
> 
> That's a puzzler. What can Tivo offer to substantially differentiate their offering and acquire enough subscribers to justify the rollout? If they can pull it off, it would be huge. But they used the tagline "reinvent the DVR" for the Premiere debut and a lot of folks felt that was an overstatement. If it's that groundbreaking it would have to debut on their own DVRs first.


2 years ago tivo seemed cool but D* added so much to there own boxes TIVO better have much better if they want more $.

Tivo missed out on having a true2way cable box (true2way is needed for cable VOD and SDV with out add on truners) and the new tivo is half baked.

Tivo software on comcast cable boxes seems to be dead or still just in the beta test area.

So out look seems no so good for tivo to pull anything off.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Watching TiVo's history, I've come to the following thoughts:

At one time, TiVo had the whole enchillada: great programmers, great execution, great customers, etc. And a great concept.

Then they went and all got drunk (just kidding) and lost darn nearly everything.

Look at their last 8 years (or so) of development: seems like a string of delays on every front--multiple cable companies, DIRECTV, and now DIRECTV again. I don't know what happened, but they sure aren't executing like they used to.

I also think they blew their business opportunities. They should have reduced their monthly fees after a few years to get more and more customers--meaning more and more data. Data they could sell for more money than the customers would give them.

But something went wrong and unfortunately TiVo is in serious trouble in my opinion. If they don't deliver soon, they might not be able to recover.

By the way--my guess is TiVo is not suffering any scope creep... Far more likely they are rapidly dropping features so they can get _anything_ out this year.

Hopefully, again my guess, they will eventually get most of the features out at some point. Or they will die. (sadly.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Adman1

Thanks, Mike.

I suppose I have been saving many posts in my head; finally sat down and put it on paper so to speak. Sorry for the length.


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## Adman1

Tom Robertson said:


> Watching TiVo's history, I've come to the following thoughts:
> 
> At one time, TiVo had the whole enchillada: great programmers, great execution, great customers, etc. And a great concept.
> 
> Then they went and all got drunk (just kidding) and lost darn nearly everything.
> 
> Look at their last 8 years (or so) of development: seems like a string of delays on every front--multiple cable companies, DIRECTV, and now DIRECTV again. I don't know what happened, but they sure aren't executing like they used to.
> 
> I also think they blew their business opportunities. They should have reduced their monthly fees after a few years to get more and more customers--meaning more and more data. Data they could sell for more money than the customers would give them.
> 
> But something went wrong and unfortunately TiVo is in serious trouble in my opinion. If they don't deliver soon, they might not be able to recover.
> 
> By the way--my guess is TiVo is not suffering any scope creep... Far more likely they are rapidly dropping features so they can get _anything_ out this year.
> 
> Hopefully, again my guess, they will eventually get most of the features out at some point. Or they will die. (sadly.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom, a couple responses to your post. Realize, again, I have no inside info. Just an interested view from afar:

1) Agree that they have seemed to lose their mojo. Would like to have been fly on wall during their product dvmt and marketing sessions. I still think they don't do this right at all. As an "Adman", I do have some insights on this. Great brand name. Ubiquitous, even! But if consumers don't know why they're different, big problem. You're also right that price -- or perceived price -- has stymied distribution efforts. Cable, sat and telcom have advantage of bundling which services. TiVo perceived as expensive and unnecessary add-on.

2) That said, I will defend to a degree some of their failures over last few years. Arguably, their IP has been pilfered by many, if not all, DVR competitors (D* excepted.) And D* split with them. If TiVo had any real chance for long-term survival, they had to defend the IP in the courts vs. Dish -- the lowest hanging pilferer -- at same time establishing precedent versus the others. It is very difficult for a company like TiVo to sell services to content distributors who decide they can produce their own DVRs with impunity. At virtually every stage of the nearly 6-year court battle with Dish, TiVo has won. But Ergan's game of cat and mouse with the courts has further delayed TiVo's ability to establish precedent against others. So 6 years have elapsed and TiVo has gone from virtually 100% market share of US DVR category to about 10% -- without a dime to show for it (excepting D* licensing and recent court award vs. Dish.) This greatly impacts a company's ability to establish a business model -- as well as invest in development.

3) Since D* went their own route and Dish was pilfering and otherwise engaged in cat/mouse, TiVo's only US play was cable. But cable wasn't wild about surrendering DVR revenue to TiVo either. (See above.) Thus, no super hurry from the big boys to deploy a TiVo solution. Plus a 21st century TiVo deployment required a significant upgrade in DVR hardware from the cablecos -- not something they wanted to do either. So bleeding D* subscribers and an end game with Dish nowhere in sight, TiVo's only option was accepting a test with Comcast of a port of the TiVo software onto the top of Comcast / Motorola middleware running on clearly inferior set-top boxes. I'm not an engineer but according to all reports, this was a disaster. Cox, I'm sure, was watching this closely and decided not to touch. Hard to say how dedicated or motivated for success Comcast was/is. But let's say TiVo hasn't had much leverage in negotiating fair and attractive cableco deals -- at least with the big boys.

4) TiVo can still execute. They have recently deployed versions of their new TiVo Premier product with both Suddenlink and RCN in the US and Virgin in UK. These products blazed to market. Haven't seen any user reports on these yet. But I expect to see very positive reviews excepting the usual minor launch bugs.

5) On the other hand, the half-finished HD interface on the stand-alone TiVo Premier is a real head scratcher. This product was undoubtedly rushed to market before ready -- and in the 6+ months since launch, little progress had been made in finishing it. Really odd. And in many ways an insult to long-time highly loyal TiVo fans. I have not purchased one since it is not substantially different than the TiVo HDs I own (and I may come back to D* pending DirecTiVo feature set and pricing). Who knows how they're prioritizing software developments worldwide. But contrary to an earlier poster's guess that they are preoccupied with the TiVo Premier (rather than the DirecTiVo), I suggest you read the vitriol from TiVo Premier users who are equally frustrated that little progress has been made there either!

Hopefully they'll fill their development openings, get the DirecTiVo launched, the Premier finished, their lawsuit with Dish finally settled and get their mojo back.


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## Stuart Sweet

All excellent points. I'd say it's even sadder to think they _can_ still execute and they just don't.


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## Brennok

The one thing I still think primarily has to due with the delays is the implementation of features into the old UI. 

It drives me nuts because I can't find the clip or interview it was from, but TiVo, possibly even Tom Rogers, around the launch of the Premiere addressed why features as basic as the free space indicator weren't added before the Premiere. It had to do with how the early code was written and how it had been modified over time. They found it somewhat easy to add some functionality like we saw over the series 1-TiVo HD, but this was why we didn't see anything major that involved changing any of the screens for the most part. Yeah we saw them add a single line option or separate screens, but no real changes to existing screens. 

My guess is they keep running into issues with the coding of the old UI and trying to implement the DirecTV features. The other issues mentioned above like the suit, job openings, etc definitely don't help either. Of course if and when we see it finally we may still never know what took so long.


----------



## inkahauts

ffemtreed said:


> You missed my point, My point was if it were totally true that DTV just said here is the box put your software on it and we have no further obligations just make something happen, why wouldn't tivo put all its features into it? The reason is because DTV does have a lot of say of what is and isn't going into the box and needs to approve of just about everything TIVO does with the system. You are absolutely correct, DTV has almost no motive to help TIVO along. I am sure they would love for it to never launch so they don't have to worry about training CSR's, field techs and etc. I am not putting any burden of the blame on either company, but I am not naive enough to believe this is all strictly tivo's fault and DTV has clean hands.


I can't see how saying leave a few things out is going to cause them that many issues to delay its launch by an order of YEARS... If anything, saying they can;t have Netflix should make it easier, they don;t have to make sure it works with the new box.

And there is no way they are constantly changing what they are saying they can or can't put in their unit...

Just saying.. 

I think where they screwed up is they didn't try and release a HR10-250 with MPEG4 and swm capabilities... AT this point, they are so far behind in features, I don't see anyone who has a HR now with WH service ever going with a tivo...


----------



## inkahauts

cbessant said:


> Has DTV/TiVo ever disclosed exactly what features this new box will have? Examole: 3D would be new for TiVo, and if this wasn't in the original spec, and DTV added it as a change order, that would be scope creep for TiVo to develop.
> 
> It just seems if they're creating an MPEG4 HD unit with fewer features than the current TiVo Premier XL (this is just an example of an existing full featured platform) unit has, it shouldn't be a huge deal to port TiVo code to the DTV hardware, unless the TiVo code is a real mess.
> 
> I get that DTV wouldn't want Netflix streaming on it. The consumer needs to buy a TV or DVD player that supports Netflix, and the cost isn't all that much. It just means the consumer needs to have one more widget to plug into the wall and in the back of the TV - wires and real estate giving them a reason to grumble that the DirecTiVo box is lacking in features.
> 
> I have to believe that TiVo has very good developers and planners, they just need more subscribers and DTV would offer that exposure. They created a great DVR, and I don't think it was a fluke. It is just more expensive than the DVRs being offered by others. And if the others price their DVRs to be cheaper than TiVo, and the consumer isn't motivated by product differentiation and indifferent to TiVo or an HR24, price should be king. The consumer just wants a DVR, TiVo or not, is what I am hearing, and as such, TiVo will be the loser at the end of the day as consumers will be price sensitive and will go for the cheaper unit as the GUI/features are enough to motivate a more expensive product.


I believe tivo has fallen victim to the people running it.. They got way to arrogant when they survived and replaytv (which was always far superior, but totally lacked in the marketing and promotional realm and of course, the backing money that tivo had, which is why they faltered) and figured the market is theirs, and it will advance at whatever pace they wanted, and slowed their product development, and by the time they started to ramp it back up, if they ever did, they where so far behind in having to rewrite code, that its killing them and causing them to miss every deadline they have ever had...

Tivo has been all about the bottom line, where replaytv was about developing an unmatched product.... Unfortunately, unmatched means nothing if no one knows who you are, and you don't have any money to market yourself...


----------



## CuriousMark

Brennok said:


> The one thing I still think primarily has to due with the delays is the implementation of features into the old UI.
> 
> It drives me nuts because I can't find the clip or interview it was from, but TiVo, possibly even Tom Rogers, around the launch of the Premiere addressed why features as basic as the free space indicator weren't added before the Premiere. It had to do with how the early code was written and how it had been modified over time. They found it somewhat easy to add some functionality like we saw over the series 1-TiVo HD, but this was why we didn't see anything major that involved changing any of the screens for the most part. Yeah we saw them add a single line option or separate screens, but no real changes to existing screens.
> 
> My guess is they keep running into issues with the coding of the old UI and trying to implement the DirecTV features. The other issues mentioned above like the suit, job openings, etc definitely don't help either. Of course if and when we see it finally we may still never know what took so long.


I am with you on this one.

As I recall it was a post by TiVoPony at TCF that described the difficulties with the existing interface and code dependencies that had crept in over the years. He was explaining why the Premiere went with Flash.


----------



## smiddy

Is TiVo at CES this year?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

smiddy said:


> Is TiVo at CES this year?


Dang good question. I think they're there but we'll have to wait for our members at CES to let us know how relevant it will be.

I'm hopin' we'll learn something new. 

Mike


----------



## Steve

Mike Bertelson said:


> Dang good question. I think they're there but we'll have to wait for our members at CES to let us know how relevant it will be.
> 
> I'm hopin' we'll learn something new.


The zatz web site says TiVo has a private meeting room, like last year, but hopefully our guys in the field can get in to see if there's any sign of a DirecTiVo.

They have announced a new iPad app, but nothing new comes up if you google TiVo and DirecTV for the past week.


----------



## cbessant

http://www.multichannel.com/article/462088-CES_TiVo_Expects_DirecTV_HD_DVR_This_Year.php

Las Vegas - More than a year behind schedule, the TiVo-based HD digital video recorder for DirecTV will launch sometime in 2011 -- a development the DVR company is hoping will help it stop the tide of subscriber losses.

The development of the DirecTV box, which runs on a Thomson hardware platform, has "taken longer than we expected for a variety of reasons," said Naveen Chopra, TiVo senior vice president of corporate development and strategy. He declined to provide a more specific launch window for the product.

TiVo has been steadily losing customers over the past three years. For the quarter ended Oct. 31, 2010, the company had 2.27 million subscribers, down from 2.74 million a year earlier.

<more>


----------



## David Ortiz

Mike Bertelson said:


> Dang good question. I think they're there but we'll have to wait for our members at CES to let us know how relevant it will be.
> 
> I'm hopin' we'll learn something new.
> 
> Mike


They have a block of meeting rooms this year, in the same location as last year. Two prominent signs outside the entry said that admittance was by appointment only. I already have a TiVo plush doll, so I didn't bother trying to go in.


----------



## Sixto

Man, if they're still not showing anything at CES, then they are even worse off then I would have ever imagined. (I know, I know, others have always predicted the worst. )

I originally was expecting a quick prototype at CES 2009 to gain mind-share, but understood that maybe it was overly aggressive.

Then figured that they'd show something at CES 2010 for sure. Nada.

Was almost positively certain that they'd show off the near final box at CES 2011.

Well, it sure seems like they're again showing nothing.

Either they have some gag order, or they are really hurting big time.

I've never been one to bad mouth TiVo, since I believe any technology on DirecTV is interesting to evaluate whether I'd ever purchase it or not, but this is now way beyond bizarre.

If they truly are showing nothing again at CES, 2.5 years after the announcement, then they have some serious issues.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

At this point, I'm done predicting. You all laughed when I said 1Q11... and now that seems like it won't even happen.


----------



## cbessant

Stuart Sweet said:


> At this point, I'm done predicting. You all laughed when I said 1Q11... and now that seems like it won't even happen.


I am a hopeless optimist, and thought 1Q11 was reasonable, and really thought TiVo had their collected act together. Now they look like a bunch of Shriners' clowns piling out of a little car. I think Google developed their search engine in less time...

You'd think if they really wanted to shore up subscribers, they'd put their nose to the grindstone and offer good bonuses, incentives, stock options to their engineers to get the DTV product out the door ASAP. Sounds like they need a new stable of managers.

I picture a sloth with a foot stuck in a tar pit, and we know what eventually happened...really sad.


----------



## ATARI

cbessant said:


> a development the DVR company is hoping will help it stop the tide of subscriber losses.


*too late*

The *new* HD DirecTiVo has officially become the Duke Nukem Forever of the hardware realm.


----------



## emmpee

Glass half full ... hopefully the delay is due to implementing WHDVR or something.
Glass half empty ... well ...


----------



## CuriousMark

TiVo did not show the Premiere standalone DVR at CES last year. (publicly) It debuted in March at a Company event.

Perhaps that is what will happen here too. Perhaps not, but for the perennially hopeful, that is the precedent we have so far.

Let us all hope that this one doesn't ship unfinished like the Premiere did.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> At this point, I'm done predicting. You all laughed when I said 1Q11... and now that seems like it won't even happen.


Yup. In fact, I laughed so much, I almost busted my gut 4 realz . The new HD DTivo has been talked about since 2008. Its now 2011 without a word. Nothing out of CES (natch...). I think we can safely assume its gone the way of the dodo bird.

EDIT: Actually, to be honest, I don't think it was *ever* supposed to be released. Not basing this on anything but a hunch, but I think its pretty obvious DTV "let" Tivo make one as part of the lawsuit settlement, but it was more of a conversation that went like this:

Tivo: we want to make you a new box!!!
DirecTV: Um... ok, sure, go ahead (DTV CEO turns to his yes men and smiles -- wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
<Tivo leaves the room>
DirecTV: hahahahahahahhaha... that was hi-larious guys... awesome burn!
(1 yr later)
Tivo emails DTV for some technical specs
Recipient "accidently" spills coffee on keyboard and hits the delete key "uh.. what email? I never got any email?!?!"


----------



## jacmyoung

SledgeHammer said:


> Yup. In fact, I laughed so much, I almost busted my gut 4 realz . The new HD DTivo has been talked about since 2008. Its now 2011 without a word. Nothing out of CES (natch...). I think we can safely assume its gone the way of the dodo bird.
> 
> EDIT: Actually, to be honest, I don't think it was *ever* supposed to be released. Not basing this on anything but a hunch, but I think its pretty obvious DTV "let" Tivo make one as part of the lawsuit settlement, but it was more of a conversation that went like this:
> 
> Tivo: we want to make you a new box!!!
> DirecTV: Um... ok, sure, go ahead (DTV CEO turns to his yes men and smiles -- wink, wink, nudge, nudge)
> <Tivo leaves the room>
> DirecTV: hahahahahahahhaha... that was hi-larious guys... awesome burn!
> (1 yr later)
> Tivo emails DTV for some technical specs
> Recipient "accidently" spills coffee on keyboard and hits the delete key "uh.. what email? I never got any email?!?!"




Right after the 08 press release I said it was a litigation stunt, over the years got burnt many times by many others for making such comment, I am just glad more and more people are coming to the dark side

Not saying I was 100% correct, only that I am glad more and more of you are coming to the dark side.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> At this point, I'm done predicting. You all laughed when I said 1Q11... and now that seems like it won't even happen.


I wasn't laughing...I've always taken a wait for word from TiVo approach...and still take it with a grain of salt until it hit's the market.

IOW, I won't believe anything until I see it. 

Mike


----------



## Sylar

Great discussion on this topic, and forgive me for posting the somewhat obvious at this point, but I read through this thread and did not see reports of the notice from TiVo's site regarding the agreement between them and DirecTV for a new box in "early 2011" (per DTV's site).

I for one, despite loving my HR2X's, would instantly switch to a new DirecTivo, provided the WH service is compatible with current HR2X's. As someone pointed already, it's brainless to not be so, and the potential gains in subscriber base will be far smaller than desired without it. In the age of great TV programming with schedule conflicts aplenty, I cannot ever give this feature up again. It's more important to me than HD content, as crazy as that sounds. I'd much rather catch more favorite shows than have to decide to cut one out of my viewing schedule; and a better picture doesn't make up for that with me.

All additional streamed provider content (netflix, hulu+, etc) can be fixed through a separate box of your choosing, so that would not preclude me from using the new box personally. It all hinges on WHDVR for me.

I also have to believe we're within the 120 day release window based on the two's website notices.










http://www.tivo.com/products/source/satellite/tivo-directv/index.html

http://support.directv.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/77


----------



## bonscott87

They have changed the date on the web site several times already so anything on either site is bogus in my opinion.

So now we are again at "sometime in 2011" without even an "early" attached to it. Wow. Amazing as I thought it was a go but now maybe not. Last year at CES they changed their tune to "sometime in 2010" and it's now 2011. Are we looking at 2012 now?

Tivo, just give it up, it's way to late in the game to do make an impact.


----------



## bonscott87

jacmyoung said:


> Right after the 08 press release I said it was a litigation stunt, over the years got burnt many times by many others for making such comment, I am just glad more and more people are coming to the dark side
> 
> Not saying I was 100% correct, only that I am glad more and more of you are coming to the dark side.


Well, I and many others have always believed this was nothing more then a bone given to Tivo by DirecTV to make sure the non-litigation clause in their contract would get renewed.

DirecTV could care less either way if the box ever sees the light of day.
What's beyond me is why Tivo would let this opportunity be squandered because if they delivered DirecTV most certainly would have sold it, it's in the contract after all.

Unless Tivo themselves don't really want to release it either and it's been nothing more then a delay tactic to try and keep the few DirecTV subs they have left and to pacify Wall Street while they win more lawsuits. That hasn't gone exactly to plan either.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

Anyone remember the TVMail that basically stated that the new DirecTV HD Tivo would be out soon? :lol: How long ago was that?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And even if this device does come to market I wouldn't hold my breath on a whole home implementation.


----------



## SledgeHammer

bonscott87 said:


> Well, I and many others have always believed this was nothing more then a bone given to Tivo by DirecTV to make sure the non-litigation clause in their contract would get renewed.
> 
> DirecTV could care less either way if the box ever sees the light of day.
> What's beyond me is why Tivo would let this opportunity be squandered because if they delivered DirecTV most certainly would have sold it, it's in the contract after all.
> 
> Unless Tivo themselves don't really want to release it either and it's been nothing more then a delay tactic to try and keep the few DirecTV subs they have left and to pacify Wall Street while they win more lawsuits. That hasn't gone exactly to plan either.


Well, I didn't read the settlement, but I'm assuming that it included a "Tivo can make a box if they feel like it" clause.

I'm also assuming that DirecTV would PREFER it DIDN'T get released 1) they don't have to give Tivo one red cent and they get to keep all the money themselves 2) its cheaper for DTV to only train India on one or two boxes that are pretty similiar then to have to train them on a completely different box. Same goes for the installers. Support costs are less. DTV gets to keep even more money. 3) the number of people who refuse to get DTV because it doesn't have a Tivo is probably super small and neglible.

Now, Tivo owns certain patents that make it impossible to make a good DVR without violating those patents (just ask Dish). DirecTVs current agreement with Tivo COINCIDENTALLY expires at the same time the patents do (if I recall correctly).

Now #2, I'm sure Tivo would like to have extra subs, but they don't really have a lot of resources to work on the DTV box. Obviously at this stage of the game, their bread & butter is on the stand-alone boxes and digital cable deals.

I'm sure somebody at Tivo ran the numbers and figured, well, optimistically we will get x number of subs from DTV and worst case, we get 0.

At the end of the day, "x"'s risk vs. reward ratio is probably heavy on the risk side and low on the reward side.

Thus, I suspect the DTV project is a low priority side project for once they stabalize the SA boxes.

DISCLAIMER: I don't work for either company, so I could be speaking out of my a$$, but I'm just reading between the lines here.


----------



## jacmyoung

"bonscott87" said:


> Well, I and many others have always believed this was nothing more then a bone given to Tivo by DirecTV to make sure the non-litigation clause in their contract would get renewed.
> 
> DirecTV could care less either way if the box ever sees the light of day.
> What's beyond me is why Tivo would let this opportunity be squandered because if they delivered DirecTV most certainly would have sold it, it's in the contract after all.
> 
> Unless Tivo themselves don't really want to release it either and it's been nothing more then a delay tactic to try and keep the few DirecTV subs they have left and to pacify Wall Street while they win more lawsuits. That hasn't gone exactly to plan either.


The non-litigation clause was only one part of this DirecTV what I just called "litigation stunt" above. There are several other points which I laid out back in 08, but no point of repeating them so late in the game.


----------



## Doug Brott

smiddy said:


> Is TiVo at CES this year?


Yes, TiVo is at CES this year. I tried to set up an appointment but that didn't work out. We got a few comments out of the folks at the front that are quite telling. First off, while they wouldn't go 100% in the affirmative, it appears as if the new DIRECTV TiVo was in fact at the show this year. They wouldn't go into any detail on what features are available but it appears to be feature complete for initial release. While they did say they were "hoping" for Q1 availability, it seemed much more certain when we said "... or April or May."

I'm more convinced than ever that the target is narrowing down to sometime in April. I certainly would have liked to have actually seen the new technology with my own eyes, but I didn't. Since it is now feature complete, we are likely in the final testing and qualification stages before it is made available to the public.


----------



## Doug Brott

emmpee said:


> Glass half full ... hopefully the delay is due to implementing WHDVR or something.
> Glass half empty ... well ...


yeah .. don't get your hopes up ...


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> yeah .. don't get your hopes up ...


Same to you my friend, and it might not even have to do with the technical readiness.


----------



## RobertE

Maybe they had to wait for enough HR21/22s to be sent back to be refurbed into "new" Tivos.


----------



## ndole

RobertE said:


> Maybe they had to wait for enough HR21/22s to be sent back to be refurbed into "new" Tivos.


*R.O.F.L!* :rolling:


----------



## codespy

RobertE said:


> Maybe they had to wait for enough HR21/22s to be sent back to be refurbed into "new" Tivos.


That was below the belt but I do have to laugh at your comment. :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

jacmyoung said:


> I am glad more and more of you are coming to the dark side.


As am I.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> First off, while they wouldn't go 100% in the affirmative, it appears as if the new DIRECTV TiVo was in fact at the show this year. They wouldn't go into any detail on what features are available but it appears to be feature complete for initial release. While they did say they were "hoping" for Q1 availability, it seemed much more certain when we said "... or April or May."


If thats true, how come there is no leaked info about it? I know the Tivo room is "private" / "by invite only", but in this day and age, I've rarely seen anybody keep that sort of "secret" (NDAs be damned -- the internet is anonymous after all).

April / May is 4 months away... if that was a real date, I would have expected a teaser or two by now.

Obviously, they ARE working on it...

But they've been "hoping for availability" for 3yrs now .


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SledgeHammer said:


> If thats true, how come there is no leaked info about it? I know the Tivo room is "private" / "by invite only", but in this day and age, I've rarely seen anybody keep that sort of "secret" (NDAs be damned -- the internet is anonymous after all).
> 
> April / May is 4 months away... if that was a real date, I would have expected a teaser or two by now.
> 
> Obviously, they ARE working on it...
> 
> But they've been "hoping for availability" for 3yrs now .


Well I for one hope people honor their NDAs. It's how we can get access, test, and report on stuff.

Lets not encourage anyone to violate their NDA...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## SledgeHammer

Mike Bertelson said:


> Well I for one hope people honor their NDAs. It's how we can get access, test, and report on stuff.
> 
> Lets not encourage anyone to violate their NDA...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


Oh, I wasn't encouraging anybody to violate it. I was just sayin' people do. Everybody on the internet wants to be a hero and be the first one to post something. Why do you think every message board or comment section on the net is filled with "FIRST!!"? .


----------



## inkahauts

SledgeHammer said:


> If thats true, how come there is no leaked info about it? I know the Tivo room is "private" / "by invite only", but in this day and age, I've rarely seen anybody keep that sort of "secret" (NDAs be damned -- the internet is anonymous after all).
> 
> April / May is 4 months away... if that was a real date, I would have expected a teaser or two by now.
> 
> Obviously, they ARE working on it...
> 
> But they've been "hoping for availability" for 3yrs now .


I'm thinking Tivo may be tired of getting its stock hammered every time they make a statement for a launch date and miss it by years, rather then by weeks or even months. They are better just staying quite till its actually fully ready to launch.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SledgeHammer said:


> Oh, I wasn't encouraging anybody to violate it. I was just sayin' people do. Everybody on the internet wants to be a hero and be the first one to post something. Why do you think every message board or comment section on the net is filled with "FIRST!!"? .


And everyone that violated their NDA was wrong so it's time to drop the discussion on it...

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> If thats true, how come there is no leaked info about it? I know the Tivo room is "private" / "by invite only", but in this day and age, I've rarely seen anybody keep that sort of "secret" (NDAs be damned -- the internet is anonymous after all).
> 
> April / May is 4 months away... if that was a real date, I would have expected a teaser or two by now.
> 
> Obviously, they ARE working on it...
> 
> But they've been "hoping for availability" for 3yrs now .


I do not have a DIRECTVTiVo .. Nor am I under NDA with TiVo.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> I'm thinking Tivo may be tired of getting its stock hammered every time they make a statement for a launch date and miss it by years, rather then by weeks or even months. They are better just staying quite till its actually fully ready to launch.




Tivo has stock? As of today, the stock is $9.98 with an EPS of -0.55. Triple Ply Charmin would be a better investment. They hit $40 in 2000, but have been a < $10 stock since 2001.

Tivo is just another in a long line of companies that were first with an awesome idea, but got arrogant / mismanaged early on and as a result failed to execute long term.

The DirecTivo (if it ever comes out) isn't going to have much of an effect on their bottom line.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Despite a second year of "no show" at CES (at least a public one)....

The predictions of several DBSTalkers seems to be consistent with this latest report today on MediaBiz (Evening Bridge):



> *Up in the Sky:* A DIRECTV box from TiVo is coming ... really, no kidding, like maybe this year.


----------



## Doug Brott

April


----------



## Brennok

Fools?


----------



## Doug Brott

Won't be the 1st.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

April sounds reasonable, but I'm not planning on moving my schedule around to attend the launch :lol:


----------



## Brennok

April 28th 2011?

Do you think they will even have a launch event?


----------



## Doug Brott

Good question. My guess is no since DIRECTV will be selling/marketing. TiVo will probably have a press release since it will be an "it's about time" moment.


----------



## Brennok

This was my thinking also. I don't see it happening, but will be curious to see how it is unveiled. 

Based off the one interview, the rep from TiVo said DirecTV would be the ones to announce the features so I don't know really how they could unless DirecTV signed off on it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Brennok said:


> This was my thinking also. I don't see it happening, but will be curious to see how it is unveiled.
> 
> Based off the one interview, the rep from TiVo said DirecTV would be the ones to announce the features so I don't know really how they could unless DirecTV signed off on it.


Makes sense.


----------



## RobertE

Doug Brott said:


> April


April 31st.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RobertE said:


> April 31st.


Based on your Avatar...I'd tend to respect your knowledge.


----------



## SledgeHammer

I'm putting down a shiny vNickel on "no new HD DTivo by April 30th, 2011"


----------



## codespy

SledgeHammer said:


> I'm putting down a shiny vNickel on "no new HD DTivo by April 30th, 2011"


You sure you didn't mean Wooden Nickel?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

It exists, its in testing, it supports MPEG4, it will work with DirecTV's content, and its real enough that it should (finally) arrive mid-year 2011 or sooner. Those things we know if you assemble the information that has been publicly posted.

Beyond that...we return to speculation with some wait & see sprinkled in... :lol:


----------



## redhot

bonscott87 said:


> They have changed the date on the web site several times already so anything on either site is bogus in my opinion.
> 
> So now we are again at "sometime in 2011" without even an "early" attached to it. Wow. Amazing as I thought it was a go but now maybe not. Last year at CES they changed their tune to "sometime in 2010" and it's now 2011. Are we looking at 2012 now?
> 
> Tivo, just give it up, it's way to late in the game to do make an impact.


I predict it will be out December 2012, the day before the end of the world:eek2:


----------



## Hoosier205

Yep, it's real and lagging behind current TiVo technology. What a waste.


----------



## Doug Brott

Hoosier205 said:


> Yep, it's real and lagging behind current TiVo technology. What a waste.


As long as everyone realizes it's pretty much the HR10-250 .. with SAT HD capability added, I think everyone will be happy. They'll either be rejoicing in the return or sticking with what they've got.

What we don't need is a lot of unrealistic expectations as to what this product is going to be. There has been a number of people who have stated that all they want is MPEG4 on their HR10-250 and they'd be happy. Now it's time for those folks to put their money where their mouth is .. unless of course they've changed their mind.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Hey, if a 6-year-old DVR makes you happy, go for it


----------



## hancox

as someone without MRV, it's still interesting. Lack-of-MRV is a huge issue for adoption, though.

Age isn't a big deal to me - essentially same hardware spec as the "more current" HD-DVR option, and the software has moved on.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> There has been a number of people who have stated that all they want is MPEG4 on their HR10-250 and they'd be happy.


They were saying that in, what?, 2006? or whenever DTV killed the HR10? Now everybody wants whole house recording, photo/music/video sharing, youtube, netflix, etc. Not to veer off topic, but if you look at the current gen of BluRay players, actually playing BluRays is (lol) pretty much an after thought. All the players focus on adding streaming providers. Thats what most people want now.

Now why somebody would want to play a pixelated, highly compressed, 1 audio channel video clip on their $5000 1080p TV is beyond me, but I don't make the rules .

Still, as I said before, my hunch is if this thing was *REALLY* in beta testing (perhaps outside of the company), we would have seen *REAL* specs, or a photo from a new user with 1 post LOL.

We haven't heard from either company since 2008.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hey, if a 6-year-old DVR makes you happy, go for it


Well, here is a question, will this "supposed" new DTivo support the QWERTY remote? If it doesn't at LEAST do that, its a complete fail in my book. I couldn't care less about MRV. I used music sharing for about 5 minutes when I first got HR20.


----------



## SledgeHammer

hancox said:


> as someone without MRV, it's still interesting. Lack-of-MRV is a huge issue for adoption, though.
> 
> Age isn't a big deal to me - essentially same hardware spec as the "more current" HD-DVR option, and the software has moved on.


The last thing I actually heard from either company said "current hardware" + "old software", but that was 3yrs ago.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, here is a question, will this "supposed" new DTivo support the QWERTY remote? If it doesn't at LEAST do that, its a complete fail in my book. I couldn't care less about MRV. I used music sharing for about 5 minutes when I first got HR20.


I don't know for sure but I doubt it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't know for sure but I doubt it.


I'm too lazy to search but I seem to remember, from a few threads ago, that since it's a HR that it will be using RCxx remote...I think. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> Still, as I said before, my hunch is if this thing was *REALLY* in beta testing (perhaps outside of the company), we would have seen *REAL* specs, or a photo from a new user with 1 post LOL.
> 
> We haven't heard from either company since 2008.


Hmmmm .. you're free to doubt me if you so choose.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hey, if a 6-year-old DVR makes you happy, go for it


Actually, an MPEG-4 HR10 _with MRV capability_ would be a sweet "TV-watching appliance", IMHO. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like MRV's gonna be there.


----------



## sigma1914

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, here is a question, will this "supposed" new DTivo support the QWERTY remote? If it doesn't at LEAST do that, its a complete fail in my book. ...


A QWERTY remote is your deciding factor of it's success? How much typing do you do on a DVR?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Actually I wish we had some sort of alpha remote. It makes searching a lot faster.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> Hmmmm .. you're free to doubt me if you so choose.


. I already put down 5c on "no new HD DTivo by April 30, 2011" . Not aiming that towards you or saying you are making stuff up. I just don't buy it will be out by then. I'm basing that soley on no leaked info / pics / reports of it out in the wild / news / teasers / press releases, etc. If Apple couldn't keep the iPhone under wraps, I seriously doubt Tivo can keep something under wraps. Like no one "found a HD DTivo in the bathroom of a random bar?"  (if you recall that iPhone story).


----------



## Doug Brott

OK :shrug: ...


----------



## sigma1914

Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually I wish we had some sort of alpha remote. It makes searching a lot faster.


It's cool & helpful to have, but I was just shocked he'd consider the lack of it a fail.

I was thrilled when they added T9 ability on HRs. :lol:


----------



## CuriousMark

Ah go ahead, point him to post 79.

Might as well restart the is it real or is it photoshop discussion.


----------



## SledgeHammer

sigma1914 said:


> A QWERTY remote is your deciding factor of it's success? How much typing do you do on a DVR?


Umm... yeah...

<sarcasm>
We already know its going to record shows and stuff like that and you are going to be able to watch TV on it. It'll probably have a feature where you can turn it on and off, and maybe it'll even have HDMI output!
</sarcasm>

So with the basic features out of the way, the other features would be music/video/photo sharing, MRV, OTA, etc.

OTA is possible, but unlikely since DTV wants to charge you extra for it now.

Media sharing & MRV, I don't care about.

So whats left? The QWERTY remote. Thats a feature *I* would find useful. Granted, I would only potentially buy 1 box, so Tivo doesn't base the feature set around me, but people who have used the QWERTY remote love it.

As for how much typing I do... well, I usually use the "view upcoming" feature to find shows, but if they've fallen off the history and todo list, I can't do that, so I have to use the search feature.

I set up new recordings once or twice a week.


----------



## SledgeHammer

sigma1914 said:


> It's cool & helpful to have, but I was just shocked he'd consider the lack of it a fail.
> 
> I was thrilled when they added T9 ability on HRs. :lol:


What else would it have that would make it a non fail? Its already leaning on the edge of fail just by having the old OS.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> OK :shrug: ...


. Well, if it does, I'll be back to eat crow .


----------



## SledgeHammer

sigma1914 said:


> I was thrilled when they added T9 ability on HRs. :lol:


I was thrilled when they added remote programming via the online guide. I thought it would be awesome. Then I tried to use it. The guide and DTVs site is soooo slow it took about a minute to set up a record, so that feature was a non starter.


----------



## bobcamp1

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hey, if a 6-year-old DVR makes you happy, go for it


Well, if the 6-year old DVR were more reliable, didn't need a software update once a month, didn't miss any recordings, didn't reboot on it own, never locked up, didn't need constant rebooting, and had fast remote response, then it would be better. I think feature creep is killing DVRs in general.

My TV, Blu-Ray player, Wii, Xbox, and probably my toaster can all stream video. So can my PC, which has its own monitor but can also plug into my TV. If my DVR can't do that as well, it's no big loss.


----------



## sigma1914

SledgeHammer said:


> What else would it have that would make it a non fail? Its already leaning on the edge of fail just by having the old OS.


IMO, it won't be a fail or huge success.

Tivotees will get their beloved bleeps & bloops, cartoonish look, annoying suggestions, and God awful 45 minute wait for readjusting season passes back.


----------



## sigma1914

SledgeHammer said:


> I was thrilled when they added remote programming via the online guide. I thought it would be awesome. Then I tried to use it. The guide and DTVs site is soooo slow it took about a minute to set up a record, so that feature was a non starter.


It's been revamped and mightily improved.


----------



## sigma1914

bobcamp1 said:


> Well, if the 6-year old DVR were more reliable, didn't need a software update once a month, didn't miss any recordings, didn't reboot on it own, never locked up, didn't need constant rebooting, and had fast remote response, then it would be better. I think feature creep is killing DVRs in general.
> ...


Hmmm, everything you listed I saw on many Tivos.


----------



## SledgeHammer

sigma1914 said:


> IMO, it won't be a fail or huge success.
> 
> Tivotees will get their beloved bleeps & bloops, cartoonish look, annoying suggestions, and God awful 45 minute wait for readjusting season passes back.


I loved my HR10-250, but first thing I do on any Tivo I have ever owned was turn off the sound effects and suggestions. Those 2 features are useless.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SledgeHammer said:


> . I already put down 5c on "no new HD DTivo by April 30, 2011" . Not aiming that towards you or saying you are making stuff up. I just don't buy it will be out by then. I'm basing that soley on no leaked info / pics / reports of it out in the wild / news / teasers / press releases, etc. If Apple couldn't keep the iPhone under wraps, I seriously doubt Tivo can keep something under wraps. Like no one "found a HD DTivo in the bathroom of a random bar?"  (if you recall that iPhone story).


You assume that there's as much interest in the DirecTiVo as there was for the iPhone 4. Can you think of anything that had as much hype as the iPhone 4?

I doubt there is much interest in a TiVo that is, let's face it, a mediocre platform...at platform that will likely have less features then TiVo's current DVR and seemingly even less then the latest feature set on DirecTV's current DVRs. It's nowhere near being on the same level as the iPhone. Actually, I'd bet that outside of this forum and maybe Tivocommunity, nobody really cares. 

My 3.34¢ FWIW. 

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That's harsh. Swanni cares too.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Mike Bertelson said:


> You assume that there's as much interest in the DirecTiVo as there was for the iPhone 4. Can you think of anything that had as much hype as the iPhone 4?


Absolutely not. I figure it'll be a non event and will be discontinued after a while for lack of sales.

If there is a tivo surcharge as many suspect, why would anybody pay EXTRA for a WEAKER box.

BUT, Tivo fanatics are as obsessed with Tivos as much as iPhone people are obsessed with iPhones . Just theres a whole lot more iPhone people.


----------



## newsposter

Doug Brott said:


> As long as everyone realizes it's pretty much the HR10-250 .. with SAT HD capability added, I think everyone will be happy. They'll either be rejoicing in the return or sticking with what they've got.
> 
> What we don't need is a lot of unrealistic expectations as to what this product is going to be. There has been a number of people who have stated that all they want is MPEG4 on their HR10-250 and they'd be happy. Now it's time for those folks to put their money where their mouth is .. unless of course they've changed their mind.


i need it NOW! woke up to HDtivo on the searching for sat message but thankfully 2 reboots cured it. I missed a few recordings over the past 2 days because of 'no power' but that wasnt the real reason.

i need zero extras, i have one tv that i watch everything from and just stack up the units. mrv and all that stuff mean nothing to me, and yes i'm one of the 1% minority but thats usually how it is in life with me.

also the new unit better have OTA because thats what i use the tivo for, the HR is for all the mpeg4 stuff. and unlimited SP too


----------



## SledgeHammer

newsposter said:


> also the new unit better have OTA because thats what i use the tivo for, the HR is for all the mpeg4 stuff. and unlimited SP too


DTV isn't going to give you that for free. They started charging you for it on the HR21's and later. By charge, I meant they made you buy the external decoder box.

SPECIFICALLY why I still have my HR20 .


----------



## damondlt

So did any of you guys who went to CES get invited into a private room to see a New model receiver.
Like a Tivo HD DVR??


----------



## hilmar2k

Would think that would have been mentioned by now. And isn't there already a thread for that?


----------



## damondlt

hilmar2k said:


> Would think that would have been mentioned by now. And isn't there already a thread for that?


You would think it would be mentioned.

And where's the thread?
What CES? No thanks! That like a needle in a hay stack.


----------



## Doug Brott

damondlt said:


> So did any of you guys who went to CES get invited into a private room to see a New model receiver.
> Like a Tivo HD DVR??


You missed the post from this past weekend:


Doug Brott said:


> Yes, TiVo is at CES this year. I tried to set up an appointment but that didn't work out. We got a few comments out of the folks at the front that are quite telling. First off, while they wouldn't go 100% in the affirmative, it appears as if the new DIRECTV TiVo was in fact at the show this year. They wouldn't go into any detail on what features are available but it appears to be feature complete for initial release. While they did say they were "hoping" for Q1 availability, it seemed much more certain when we said "... or April or May."
> 
> I'm more convinced than ever that the target is narrowing down to sometime in April. I certainly would have liked to have actually seen the new technology with my own eyes, but I didn't. Since it is now feature complete, we are likely in the final testing and qualification stages before it is made available to the public.


----------



## damondlt

327 posts and someone is supposed to see this?


----------



## Doug Brott

hilmar2k said:


> Would think that would have been mentioned by now. And isn't there already a thread for that?





damondlt said:


> You would think it would be mentioned.
> 
> And where's the thread?
> What CES? No thanks! That like a needle in a hay stack.


As noted .. Was mentioned in the quarterly TiVo thread (which is now merged with your thread).

It's not a needle in a hay stack .. The TiVo discussion has been in a single thread in the General Forum for over 2 years now. We refresh it every 3 months, but it's essentially one long thread. It's definitely not hidden, just seems there are fewer and fewer people talking about it.


----------



## Doug Brott

damondlt said:


> 327 posts and someone is supposed to see this?


I chose to not create a separate thread .. We already have discussion about TiVo. Those that care to see it will find it.


----------



## damondlt

hilmar2k said:


> It's definitely not hidden, just seems there are fewer and fewer people talking about it.


 Of coarse 2 years is a long time to talk about something and not deliver.

But if someone caught a glimps of it, and it wasn't DBS talk, and it wasn't Satellite Guys, then who was it? Tivo?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

damondlt said:


> Of coarse 2 years is a long time to talk about something and not deliver.
> 
> But if someone caught a glimps of it, and it wasn't DBS talk, and it wasn't Satellite Guys, *then who was it? Tivo?*


What's the question. Did TiVo see the new TiVo? 

Mike


----------



## damondlt

Doug Brott said:


> Those that care to see it will find it.


 Got ya , What might intrest some , might not intrest others, if it doesn't intrest the ones with the power, then it is of no intrest to anyone.

Got it! Loud and clear.:lol:


----------



## damondlt

Mike Bertelson said:


> What's the question. Did TiVo see the new TiVo?
> 
> Mike


 Who saw it?

If you guys don't know, just say I don't know.

All you mods are so sensitive over a simple question.

:nono:


----------



## damondlt

Again then who saw it?


----------



## David Ortiz

I went to the TiVo meeting rooms this year like I did last year. The show was just starting and the signs were on both sides of the door indicating that an appointment was necessary to gain admittance.

I wanted to see the new receiver, but I couldn't get in. You can bet, however, that if anyone here did see it, they would have said so, and we'd still be talking about it.


----------



## Lee L

Interesting, the HR10-250 started becoming available in April too.


----------



## Doug Brott

damondlt said:


> Again then who saw it?


I don't know anyone that actually saw it physically @ the show. I'm also pretty sure (like 97.23% sure) that anyone who saw it had to sign and NDA. I'm kinda glad it was just a "chat" and this way I don't have to "not" say anything.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And you know, I hate to say this, but if the TiVo people really had something to show, they would have shown it, not hidden it. You hide products that are years out or products that you think your competition could quickly duplicate. You don't hide something that was announced almost three years ago... unless you don't really have it working.


----------



## Doug Brott

TiVo is an odd company in that respect. DISH Network (for example) showed the 922 at least a year before it was released. DIRECTV (via proxy) showed the HMC30, now dubbed HR34, at both last year's CES and this years. It has yet to be released to the public.

TiVo came out in blazing fashion with a press release in September '08 but has remained largely coy since then. It may simply be that (as a DIRECTV contractor), TiVo can't say too much, but it certainly seems like they would want to put it out a bit more. I know the guy I talked to said explicitly "Yeah, a lot of people have been asking about that" referring to the new DIRECTV TiVo.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I can't help but thinking that their shyness has to do with the fact that "TiVo" as a term, and as a company name, is beginning to sound very dated. I was reading a book last night and I didn't realize it was written about 12 years ago. But as soon as the author said he searched Alta Vista, I knew. 

TiVo is rapidly moving into that group that includes AOL, Earthlink, Novell, and other darlings of the early '00s, companies that soldier on despite having lost their luster in the marketplace.


----------



## Doug Brott

If TiVo didn't have the Patents they do, they would have been a has-been long ago. As it is, they very nearly messed that up, too.


----------



## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> And you know, I hate to say this, but if the TiVo people really had something to show, they would have shown it, not hidden it. You hide products that are years out or products that you think your competition could quickly duplicate. You don't hide something that was announced almost three years ago... unless you don't really have it working.


Two other reasons are that you are a subcontractor who can't say anything without the customer signing off first and secondly that the working product is embarrassing enough at this point that saying nothing is the best way to go.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Two other reasons are that you are a subcontractor who can't say anything without the customer signing off first and secondly that the working product is embarrassing enough at this point that saying nothing is the best way to go.


Yeah, it could be the latter .. :lol:


----------



## ATARI

So, my assumption (you know what that can lead to), based on the posts here is that TiVo will be releasing an HD DirecTiVo sometime in Q2, but it is so technologically outdated and/or feature poor, that it didn't warrant a show-off at CES?


----------



## CuriousMark

ATARI said:


> So, my assumption (you know what that can lead to), based on the posts here is that TiVo will be releasing an HD DirecTiVo sometime in Q2, but it is so technologically outdated and/or feature poor, that it didn't warrant a show-off at CES?


Keeping in mind that all those posts are just speculation. Anyone who knows isn't talking.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

ATARI said:


> So, my assumption (you know what that can lead to), based on the posts here is that TiVo will be releasing an HD DirecTiVo sometime in Q2, but it is so technologically outdated and/or feature poor, that it didn't warrant a show-off at CES?


That would be my speculation, my 8-bit friend.


----------



## ATARI

CuriousMark said:


> Keeping in mind that all those posts are just speculation. Anyone who knows isn't talking.


Always on my mind, as is Occam's Razor.

Does TiVo have a super-duper new DVR for DirecTV that nobody has seen or admits to seeing?

Or do they have nothing worth showing?


----------



## Richierich

ATARI said:


> Does TiVo have a super-duper new DVR for DirecTV that nobody has seen or admits to seeing?
> 
> Or do they have nothing worth showing?


We'll know SOON as TiVo Never Debuts their Products early whether they are Good or a POS!!!


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> And you know, I hate to say this, but if the TiVo people really had something to show, they would have shown it, not hidden it. You hide products that are years out or products that you think your competition could quickly duplicate. You don't hide something that was announced almost three years ago... unless you don't really have it working.




I've been saying this same exact thing for 3yrs now.

No leaks, no info, no specs, no nothing = not even close to release.

But seriously, what is the deal with a 3yr delay? Did someone go:

CD \Tivo\Documents\DirecTivo\HR10-250
DEL *.*

about 5yrs ago?

The HR10-250 is like 95% of the way there. Hack in MPEG4, upgrade a few components and badda bing badda boom. Ship it.

The new DTivo certainly won't be bleeding edge or innovative beyond the Tivo Premiere.

There is really nothing to hide except the fact that they don't have a working prototype .


----------



## Doug Brott

Just to clarify, the announcement was 9/08. That's not even 3 years yet. It was due 12/09 based on reading the announcement. April is 16 months removed, not even two years. To say that it's 3 years delayed is simply inaccurate.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> I can't help but thinking that their shyness has to do with the fact that "TiVo" as a term, and as a company name, is beginning to sound very dated. I was reading a book last night and I didn't realize it was written about 12 years ago. But as soon as the author said he searched Alta Vista, I knew.
> 
> TiVo is rapidly moving into that group that includes AOL, Earthlink, Novell, and other darlings of the early '00s, companies that soldier on despite having lost their luster in the marketplace.


I dunno if I agree with that completely.

AOL died because they were (and are) a dial up based online thing for the most part. Everybody went broadband and AOL didn't innovate. By the time AOL moved online, it was too late.

Novell (and every other proprietary network provider) died after the world standardized on TCP/IP.

Tivo still has *some* cache, but yeah, when every cable company has their own DVR, why pay extra for a brand name that doesn't offer anything beyond what the generic model does?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> If TiVo didn't have the Patents they do, they would have been a has-been long ago. As it is, they very nearly messed that up, too.


Protected said patents helped kill the company. DISH definitely has deeper pockets.

Don't the patents expire soon? Then Tivo will be finished. By "soon", I seem to remember sometime around 202x?.


----------



## SledgeHammer

CuriousMark said:


> Keeping in mind that all those posts are just speculation. Anyone who knows isn't talking.


The new HD DTivo is like the boogeyman and the tooth fairy... not real :grin:.

I just don't buy that anyone who knows isn't talking, cuz its hard to keep a secret.


----------



## SledgeHammer

ATARI said:


> Always on my mind, as is Occam's Razor.
> 
> Does TiVo have a super-duper new DVR for DirecTV that nobody has seen or admits to seeing?
> 
> Or do they have nothing worth showing?


Tivo and DirecTV have already come out and said "its going to be ancient software running on new(er) hardware -- pretty much the HR10-250 + MPEG4 (- OTA)". Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Richierich

SledgeHammer said:


> The new HD DTivo is like the boogeyman and the tooth fairy... not real :grin:.


Not Real as in VAPORWARE!!!


----------



## CUDAHY

If it were just the old software on current DirecTV hardware it would have been out over a year ago.
I've read dozens of different reasons for people who are still waiting to get it.
I've gotten used to the DirecTV box but would still gladly pay $5 a month extra for the Tivo.
For me the most important difference is the ability to conveniently search for movies alphabetically(I print out an alphabetical list of movies I want to see each year). I could do it in 20 minutes with Tivo & it takes 3 hours with DirecTV.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Doug Brott said:


> Just to clarify, the announcement was 9/08. That's not even 3 years yet. It was due 12/09 based on reading the announcement. April is 16 months removed, not even two years. To say that it's 3 years delayed is simply inaccurate.


Yes, you are correct, I was stretching when I said three years. It just seems like three years. But heck, it seems like three years since breakfast.

(That's right, I said HECK!)


----------



## Doug Brott

CUDAHY said:


> If it were just the old software on current DirecTV hardware it would have been out over a year ago.


TiVo thought so too when they made the initial announcement .. they were wrong. There are a few additions like Swivel Search and Kid Zone (those were announced).

Plus, they needed to adjust something to be able to see the signals from the two new satellite positions.


----------



## cypherx

Maybe Tivo should of made a Premiere like DVR that had HDMI passthrough, and used HDMI-CEC control to control a set top box. Or the GoogleTV like IR blasters all over the unit. Then it would work with anything (IPTV,FIOS,Cable,Dish,Direct)

But I guess that would defeat the whole purpose of watch one show while recording another.


----------



## JosephB

cypherx said:


> Maybe Tivo should of made a Premiere like DVR that had HDMI passthrough, and used HDMI-CEC control to control a set top box. Or the GoogleTV like IR blasters all over the unit. Then it would work with anything (IPTV,FIOS,Cable,Dish,Direct)
> 
> But I guess that would defeat the whole purpose of watch one show while recording another.


HDMI passthrough is not an option because it is exactly what it sounds like, passthrough. The HDMI signal can't be recorded. It's uncompressed anyway, and the entire point of an integrated box is that it records the bitstream straight off the satellite and doesn't require an expensive set of encoder chips.

The way I would do it, architecturally, would have been to design the new Tivo premier to be able to modularly accept any number of tuners. Then, they could have just created a new Premier box with DirecTV tuners inside instead of cablecard. Also, all the development work would have simply been on making a set of DirecTV tuners that could plug into the Tivo software, instead of building the whole box from scratch. But, obviously, I'm not Tivo.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes, you are correct, I was stretching when I said three years. It just seems like three years. But heck, it seems like three years since breakfast.
> 
> (That's right, I said HECK!)


Maybe a TivoYear is like a dog year where it is equal to 7 human years?   Now the box will actually be out on time!


----------



## SledgeHammer

CUDAHY said:


> If it were just the old software on current DirecTV hardware it would have been out over a year ago.


That came straight from one of the super high ranking DTV or Tivo officials. Don't remember which, I think it was a DTV VP or something or other.

Its possible they decided they needed to sack up and deliver a more manly box and scrapped that idea... but who the heck knows? They haven't uttered a word about it in years.


----------



## Richierich

Well, if it comes out in April or May and doesn't have alot of Bells & Whistles on it and is not compatible with WHDVR then it will be a Bust anyway so who cares (YAWN!!!).

Wake me up when it gets here!!! :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Syzygy

SledgeHammer said:


> Tivo and DirecTV have already come out and said "its going to be ancient software running on new(er) hardware -- pretty much the HR10-250 + MPEG4 (- OTA)". Nothing more, nothing less.


Yep, they have, and several sleuths have pointed out that the "newer" hardware is prolly just a version of the already-old HR22, called "THR22." Not very fast compared to an HR24-100.


----------



## SledgeHammer

richierich said:


> Wake me up when it gets here!!! :lol::lol::lol:


You're going to be asleep a looooooooonnnnggg time


----------



## newsposter

well it's official, the tivo will be better!!!!

http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/01/13/directv.tivo.hardware.to.arrive.this.spring/

Also allegedly not present will be multi-room support, and the device will be based on a reference Thompson design. What will be the headline feature, however, is the TiVo user interface that is said to be much better than that of DirecTV's DVR models


----------



## Doug Brott

newsposter said:


> well it's official, the tivo will be better!!!!
> 
> http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/01/13/directv.tivo.hardware.to.arrive.this.spring/
> 
> Also allegedly not present will be multi-room support, and the device will be based on a reference Thompson design. What will be the headline feature, however, is the TiVo user interface that is said to be much better than that of DirecTV's DVR models


:lol: .. sounds like I've heard a lot of what those guys are saying .. :lol:

Oh, and just found out .. Taking the over on April 30 might not be a bad idea after all .. :blackeye:


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> :lol: .. sounds like I've heard a lot of what those guys are saying .. :lol:
> 
> Oh, and just found out .. Taking the over on April 30 might not be a bad idea after all .. :blackeye:


Oh well. Theres always April 30th, 2012... and 2013... and 2014... and 2015.

I did put down a vNickel on "no new HD Tivo by April 30th" , but now I'm going to put down a whole vDollar on "no new HD DTivo in 2011" as well.


----------



## RobertE

Without seemlessly interfacing with other H(R)2x and MRV, this box is as good as DOA.

For the couple of dozen people that must have that interface, good for them. For the other 18+ million customers, it might as well not even see the light of day.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Look, I don't know for sure one way or another for sure but little birdies have never left me thinking that MRV will be supported. 

But I do agree that without it, I wouldnt be interested.


----------



## mkdtv21

If and when the Tivo comes out how will it receive software updates.
Through the phone line, internet or satellite?


----------



## Doug Brott

Satellite


----------



## rbird

newsposter said:


> well it's official, the tivo will be better!!!!
> 
> http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/01/13/directv.tivo.hardware.to.arrive.this.spring/
> 
> Also allegedly not present will be multi-room support, and the device will be based on a reference Thompson design. What will be the headline feature, however, is the TiVo user interface that is said to be much better than that of DirecTV's DVR models


 Wow...talk about your nothing articles. Basically a recap of the past couple of pages of this thread, with no sources cited. And as far as the "rumors" of a beta test - I thought we all knew a beta test was currently underway. I received an invitation myself, but responded too late to get in.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rbird said:


> Wow...talk about your nothing articles. Basically a recap of the past couple of pages of this thread, with no sources cited. And as far as the "rumors" of a beta test - I thought we all knew a beta test was currently underway. I received an invitation myself, but responded too late to get in.


How long ago did you receive your invitation?

Mike


----------



## mikela

Without all of the media room options that tivo is known for i do not think it will survive up against Directv's DVR.


----------



## JosephB

I wouldn't have expected it to support *DirecTV's MRV*. However, I would expect it to have the capability to do Tivo's transfer shows between different Tivos. If the software is as good as I expect from Tivo and it's not a shoehorned box, I'll buy one. I've been looking to reduce the boxes in my house and have DVR everywhere, and using HDMI baluns (since I'm the only one in my house) to distribute this would not be a problem at all.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

rbird said:


> Wow...talk about your nothing articles. Basically a recap of the past couple of pages of this thread, with no sources cited. And as far as the "rumors" of a beta test - I thought we all knew a beta test was currently underway. I received an invitation myself, but responded too late to get in.


So are they confirming what I said or just paraphrasing it? :lol:


----------



## cbessant

If the HD DirecTivo is going to be a shadow of what is available today from TiVo and DTV, what's the point? Why even bother?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think you're asking the right question


----------



## gregjones

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo is an odd company in that respect. DISH Network (for example) showed the 922 at least a year before it was released. DIRECTV (via proxy) showed the HMC30, now dubbed HR34, at both last year's CES and this years. It has yet to be released to the public.
> 
> TiVo came out in blazing fashion with a press release in September '08 but has remained largely coy since then. It may simply be that (as a DIRECTV contractor), TiVo can't say too much, but it certainly seems like they would want to put it out a bit more. I know the guy I talked to said explicitly "Yeah, a lot of people have been asking about that" referring to the new DIRECTV TiVo.


There is a clear delineation. If you feel you have a product that is groundbreaking or game-changing, you show it early and often (HR34, Dish 922). When you fix bugs or run late, you keep it low-key. This Tivo is not breaking new ground, in essence. It is very similar in functionality to the HR10-250 (old tech) but adds MPEG4 (old tech) on some form of HR2x hardware (old tech). They shine the spotlight on this product and the story won't be "Tivo changes everything." It would be "Tivo takes years longer to accomplish nothing new."


----------



## Steve

gregjones said:


> There is a clear delineation. If you feel you have a product that is groundbreaking or game-changing, you show it early and often (HR34, Dish 922). When you fix bugs or run late, you keep it low-key. This Tivo is not breaking new ground, in essence. It is very similar in functionality to the HR10-250 (old tech) but adds MPEG4 (old tech) on some form of HR2x hardware (old tech). *They shine the spotlight on this product and the story won't be "Tivo changes everything." It would be "Tivo takes years longer to accomplish nothing new.*"


Well-said. And it would explain why they probably kept it under wraps at CES.


----------



## Richierich

Steve said:


> Well-said. And it would explain why they probably kept it under wraps at CES.


EXACTLY!!! If you were this Late and it was coming out in April you would want to give at least the Media a Preview of the Latest & Greatest DIRECTIVO DVR, wouldn't you to Generate some Interest in the Product so you could sell a few of them!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

April is in jeopardy ..


----------



## Stuart Sweet

April is in my mistress' face.
And July in her eyes hath place.
Within her bosom is September,
But in her heart a cold December.

_-April Is In My Mistress Face, Thomas Morley_


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> April is *in jeopardy *..


I'll take...DELAYED DVRs for 200...ALEX.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

My new forecast... you'll see a hands-on review at a prominent web site (hopefully this one) in late August, with widespread availability in February '12 for the six people who still want it.


----------



## BattleScott

Perhaps TiVO understands all this too and they are less than motivated to produce the device.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Maybe DirecTVs plan is to bankrupt Tivo so they can pick up the patents for pennies on the dollar and then sue everybody for violating said patents.


----------



## Doug Brott

It's not exactly cut and dry .. DIRECTV already owns Replay's Patent (for pennies on the dollar) and Replay's original no-sue contract with TiVo. DIRECTV has a lot of leverage that other companies don't have. To be honest, I would think DIRECTV is the last company that would be looking to buy TiVo now - too much expense for virtually no gain.


----------



## matthew999

Had a Directv tech do my install recently and he made a comment on the new box comming out by Tivo.
He said it should be out later this year and that they took the power supply out of the box much like a laptop power adapter. That it would be faster than the HR24s he was installing.


----------



## lotbass

"Doug Brott" said:


> April is in jeopardy ..


I have officially given up hope on a new directivo and have changed my thoughts to..... Perhaps I can set the record for who keeps two 10-250s running the longest.

Who knows, maybe I should even grab the ole hdr112 sitting on the floor next to me and plug er back in.


----------



## Doug Brott

matthew999 said:


> Had a Directv tech do my install recently and he made a comment on the new box comming out by Tivo.
> He said it should be out later this year and that they took the power supply out of the box much like a laptop power adapter. That it would be faster than the HR24s he was installing.


Power supply is still inside .. Won't be faster than HR24.


----------



## JosephB

Doug Brott said:


> It's not exactly cut and dry .. DIRECTV already owns Replay's Patent (for pennies on the dollar) and Replay's original no-sue contract with TiVo. DIRECTV has a lot of leverage that other companies don't have. To be honest, I would think DIRECTV is the last company that would be looking to buy TiVo now - too much expense for virtually no gain.


I wouldn't say there's virtually no gain..they would then own both Replay and Tivo's patents and could send Dish & Echostar back to the stone age.

Now in terms of actual contribution to their products, they're probably too married to their in-house product now to switch over to a Tivo based product (even if it is/could/was at some point technically or from a GUI standpoint superior) and the current DirecTV DVR codebase is likely radically different that it wouldn't be possible to really integrate Tivo code without wholesale rewrites anyway.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> I wouldn't say there's virtually no gain..they would then own both Replay and Tivo's patents and could send Dish & Echostar back to the stone age.
> 
> Now in terms of actual contribution to their products, they're probably too married to their in-house product now to switch over to a Tivo based product (even if it is/could/was at some point technically or from a GUI standpoint superior) and the current DirecTV DVR codebase is likely radically different that it wouldn't be possible to really integrate Tivo code without wholesale rewrites anyway.


Yeah, thats where I was going with my comment. Tivo's IP is way more valuable then Tivo itself. I think Tivo beating Dish in court says that.

However, upon further thought, I think if DTV bought Tivo's IP with the "sole purpose" (however well hidden by DTVs lawyers) of hurting Dish, that probably wouldn't fly with the anti-trust peeps.

But if they did manage to buy Tivos patents, they would own a lot of value DVR patents.


----------



## cbessant

matthew999 said:


> He said it should be out later this year and that they took the power supply out of the box much like a laptop power adapter. That it would be faster than the HR24s he was installing.


Why would that make the machine faster. Now you'll have an annoying brick sitting behind the media cabinet. I still have an HR10-250 and it runs great. My old Hughes SD DirecTivo still runs and is used on a TV in the exercise room.


----------



## Richierich

richierich said:


> EXACTLY!!! If you were this Late and it was coming out in April you would want to give at least the Media a Preview of the Latest & Greatest DIRECTIVO DVR, wouldn't you to Generate some Interest in the Product so you could sell a few of them!!!


I didn't say what year my April Prediction was, did I?

I was talking about April 2012!!! :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> I didn't say what year my April Prediction was, did I?
> 
> I was talking about April 2012!!! :lol:


Nice "Swanni-like" prediction recovery *attempt*.  :lol:


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nice "Swanni-like" prediction recovery *attempt*.  :lol:


Swanni and me are Best Buds!!!


----------



## SledgeHammer

cbessant said:


> Why would that make the machine faster. Now you'll have an annoying brick sitting behind the media cabinet. I still have an HR10-250 and it runs great. My old Hughes SD DirecTivo still runs and is used on a TV in the exercise room.


Lolz, because some random installer that worked on a 1 post guys house knows about pre-product info.


----------



## SledgeHammer

cbessant said:


> I still have an HR10-250 and it runs great.


Didn't they shut off all the MPEG2 HD channels?

If by "runs great" you mean you get all the channels except the ones that the box was actually designed for, well, then yeah, sure .


----------



## SledgeHammer

richierich said:


> I didn't say what year my April Prediction was, did I?
> 
> I was talking about April 20*21*!!! :lol:


Fixed your typo for you


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SledgeHammer said:


> Fixed your typo for you





richierich said:


> Swanni and me are Best Buds!!!


Any credibility you may have had just went South... :lol:


----------



## gregjones

JosephB said:


> I wouldn't say there's virtually no gain..they would then own both Replay and Tivo's patents and could send Dish & Echostar back to the stone age.
> 
> Now in terms of actual contribution to their products, they're probably too married to their in-house product now to switch over to a Tivo based product (even if it is/could/was at some point technically or from a GUI standpoint superior) and the current DirecTV DVR codebase is likely radically different that it wouldn't be possible to really integrate Tivo code without wholesale rewrites anyway.


The current agreement extends beyond the expiration of the relevant patents.


----------



## JosephB

gregjones said:


> The current agreement extends beyond the expiration of the relevant patents.


The length of the agreement between DirecTV and Tivo doesn't have anything to do with the advantages I listed regarding why DirecTV might want Tivo's patents for themselves.


----------



## harsh

JosephB said:


> The length of the agreement between DirecTV and Tivo doesn't have anything to do with the advantages I listed regarding why DirecTV might want Tivo's patents for themselves.


There's not enough time left on the meter to make the interesting patents worth having. Without the patents, TiVo isn't much more than a verb in the American lexicon.


----------



## wingrider01

SledgeHammer said:


> Maybe DirecTVs plan is to bankrupt Tivo so they can pick up the patents for pennies on the dollar and then sue everybody for violating said patents.


why wait - their current stock prices are way down to start with


----------



## SledgeHammer

harsh said:


> There's not enough time left on the meter to make the interesting patents worth having. Without the patents, TiVo isn't much more than a verb in the American lexicon.


I think that ship has sailed. I can't remember the last time I heard anybody say "I tivo'ed something last night". I always hear people say "record". Heck, my mom still says "I *taped* Two and a Half Men" .

Tivo is generally worthless as a company. Any cable / sat provider has a home grown solution now.


----------



## SledgeHammer

wingrider01 said:


> why wait - their current stock prices are way down to start with


The stock is like $10 right now. That makes the company "worth" 1.1B on paper. In reality, Tivo ain't worth no 1.1B. I doubt I'd even buy them for something in the $300M to $500M range... Just not worth it.

And haven't you heard? They are about to be mis-managed even further. I remember reading something recently where Tivo is going to shift focus to services rather then HW. WTF. Why would anybody license Tivo software at this point?

Regardless of what Doug says , I still can't fathom that this box will ever see the light of day. It makes zero sense for DTV (aside from a lawsuit deal thing).

I've seen lots of companies with bad ideas die a deserved death, but Tivo actually had a good idea. So its kind of sad to see them on deaths bed. But they have no one to blame but management.


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> I think that ship has sailed. I can't remember the last time I heard anybody say "I tivo'ed something last night". I always hear people say "record". Heck, my mom still says "I *taped* Two and a Half Men" .
> 
> Tivo is generally worthless as a company. Any cable / sat provider has a home grown solution now.


A lot of people think Tivo's software is superior to the garbage that cable and satellite (including DirecTV) has come up with so far. Tivo's problem is their management.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> A lot of people think Tivo's software is superior to the garbage that cable and satellite (including DirecTV) has come up with so far. Tivo's problem is their management.


I dunno if I would agree with "a lot of people".

Besides, I think if you survey those same people and ask "do you think its a extra $5 / month better?" you'd get a resounding NO.

I don't care about WHDVR or MRV, but apperently lots of people do. The new HD DTivo is not going to support either of those.

Now ask those same people "would you rather have the Tivo and pay an extra $5/month, or would you rather settle for the lesser GUI and save $5/month plus have MRV and WHDVR?" they'd go for the latter.

As I don't care about WHDVR / MRV, I do like the Tivo UI better myself, but I wouldn't pay DTV one extra red cent beyond what I have to after all the price gouging they do. If the two DVRs were the same price, I'd probably pick the Tivo, especially if it had the QWERTY remote.

If it doesn't have the QWERTY remote (which it won't) and doesn't have MRV and WHDVR (which it won't) and isn't super fast (which it won't be) and doesn't have OTA (which it won't), I'll stick with my HR20 .


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> Regardless of what Doug says , I still can't fathom that this box will ever see the light of day. It makes zero sense for DTV (aside from a lawsuit deal thing).


The box is real .. It is in people's hands today and has been in beta testers hands for a while now. The only reason it won't see the light of day at this point is if something so out of bounds happen that they have to pull the plug in the 14th hour.


----------



## Doug Brott

JosephB said:


> A lot of people think Tivo's software is superior to the garbage that cable and satellite (including DirecTV) has come up with so far. Tivo's problem is their management.


Yes, this was once true .. now it's turning into "A lot of people thought ..." The problem really is that for most people the ship has sailed. Heck, even the folks over @ TiVoCommunity are finding it hard to drum up support these days - of course, that may be because all of them are in the Beta Test .. :lol:


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> I dunno if I would agree with "a lot of people".
> 
> Besides, I think if you survey those same people and ask "do you think its a extra $5 / month better?" you'd get a resounding NO.
> 
> I don't care about WHDVR or MRV, but apperently lots of people do. The new HD DTivo is not going to support either of those.
> 
> Now ask those same people "would you rather have the Tivo and pay an extra $5/month, or would you rather settle for the lesser GUI and save $5/month plus have MRV and WHDVR?" they'd go for the latter.
> 
> As I don't care about WHDVR / MRV, I do like the Tivo UI better myself, but I wouldn't pay DTV one extra red cent beyond what I have to after all the price gouging they do. If the two DVRs were the same price, I'd probably pick the Tivo, especially if it had the QWERTY remote.
> 
> If it doesn't have the QWERTY remote (which it won't) and doesn't have MRV and WHDVR (which it won't) and isn't super fast (which it won't be) and doesn't have OTA (which it won't), I'll stick with my HR20 .





Doug Brott said:


> Yes, this was once true .. now it's turning into "A lot of people thought ..." The problem really is that for most people the ship has sailed. Heck, even the folks over @ TiVoCommunity are finding it hard to drum up support these days - of course, that may be because all of them are in the Beta Test .. :lol:


I think you'll find that most of the problems that people have with Tivo and the course they've taken have to do with decisions made by the upper management. There is still a lot of fans of Tivo's software and what it once was and could be again.


----------



## Doug Brott

JosephB said:


> I think you'll find that most of the problems that people have with Tivo and the course they've taken have to do with decisions made by the upper management. There is still a lot of fans of Tivo's software and what it once was and could be again.


Nah, I think the magic is lost. 13 yrs back when they started it was cool .. Today, it's just business. To go from 100% of the market to 10% of the market in such a short time takes some talent no doubt, but I don't even think Steve Jobs could bring TiVo back from the brink.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> I think you'll find that most of the problems that people have with Tivo and the course they've taken have to do with decisions made by the upper management. There is still a lot of fans of Tivo's software and what it once was and could be again.


Doubt it. One of the things that made Tivo *SUPER* popular in the beginning was that the box was a wide open linux box. Just about zero security. This led to a huge modding / hacking community. As Tivo and DirecTV locked down the boxes, people stopped caring.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> To go from 100% of the market to 10% of the market in such a short time takes some talent no doubt


----------



## JosephB

SledgeHammer said:


> Doubt it. One of the things that made Tivo *SUPER* popular in the beginning was that the box was a wide open linux box. Just about zero security. This led to a huge modding / hacking community. As Tivo and DirecTV locked down the boxes, people stopped caring.


I am willing to bet less than 5% of Tivo's customers ever did anything remotely close to being considered hacking, even if it was just adding a hard drive.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> but I don't even think Steve Jobs could bring TiVo back from the brink.


I don't know about that Doug. I'm no Steve Jobs, but it sounds pretty straight forward to me on how to bring Tivo back to life.

step 1: make *AND SHIP * a DVR with high quality HD GUI, WHDVR, MRV, music/photo/video sharing, QWERTY remote, internet connection, double buffer, built in OTA
step 2: get rid of the silly arbitrary limits in things like 25 season passes or 25 recent searches, etc.
step 3: make it perform well... i.e. it shouldn't take 5 minutes to boot or 1 minute to re-order season passes.
step 4: open it back up to revive the modding community
step 5: settle with DISH and release a DISH Tivo DVR

bam... you've got ~ 30 to 40 million potential subs and a good product.

Now, one bell and whistle that people seem to want these days is Netflix / youtube streaming... the youtube streaming, ok, I guess you can do that... but the Netflix streaming would kill the PPV market. Cuz why pay $7 for a HD PPV when you can do the netflix streaming for just about free?


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> I am willing to bet less than 5% of Tivo's customers ever did anything remotely close to being considered hacking, even if it was just adding a hard drive.


Probably... but don't you remember how it was back then? Ralph brings over his neighbor and says "Dude... check out this new toy I got called a Tivo!!!" and then he showed it off and his neighbor ran out and bought one? Word of mouth .

But yeah, DVRs are new anymore... so that'd be hard to do again.


----------



## Tom Robertson

JosephB said:


> I am willing to bet less than 5% of Tivo's customers ever did anything remotely close to being considered hacking, even if it was just adding a hard drive.


While I'm not quite willing to take either side of 5% on a bet, I feel pretty strongly you are in the right ballpark. 

To another of your posts, yes I think TiVo's upper management blew it. They had the market, they had fans, they had DIRECTV customer base, they had something even better--tons of very valuable data.

Now... they are moving slower and slower. At this point, I won't be surprised by another delay on the DIRECTiVo.

That said, I am surprised at how long this has taken to get to this (non) point. DIRECTV would still be on HR20s if they moved at the TiVo rate.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

SledgeHammer said:


> I don't know about that Doug. I'm no Steve Jobs, but it sounds pretty straight forward to me on how to bring Tivo back to life.
> 
> step 1: make *AND SHIP * a DVR with high quality HD GUI, WHDVR, MRV, music/photo/video sharing, QWERTY remote, internet connection, double buffer, built in OTA
> step 2: get rid of the silly arbitrary limits in things like 25 season passes or 25 recent searches, etc.
> step 3: make it perform well... i.e. it shouldn't take 5 minutes to boot or 1 minute to re-order season passes.
> step 4: open it back up to revive the modding community
> step 5: settle with DISH and release a DISH Tivo DVR
> 
> bam... you've got ~ 30 to 40 million potential subs and a good product.
> 
> Now, one bell and whistle that people seem to want these days is Netflix / youtube streaming... the youtube streaming, ok, I guess you can do that... but the Netflix streaming would kill the PPV market. Cuz why pay $7 for a HD PPV when you can do the netflix streaming for just about free?


But--can you accomplish #1 without going broke along the way?

#4 is not going to happen (at least for a while). The mod'ers sandbox would have to be extremely tight. Thus expensive. Or so limited as to be uninteresting.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> Nah, I think the magic is lost. 13 yrs back when they started it was cool .. Today, it's just business. To go from 100% of the market to 10% of the market in such a short time takes some talent no doubt, but I don't even think Steve Jobs could bring TiVo back from the brink.


10%? It's not even that anymore. Tivo's latest numbers show they lost another few hundred thousand and stand at barely over 2 million in a market of well over 40 million DVR households.

That's barely 5%.

And shrinking.



JosephB said:


> A lot of people think Tivo's software is superior to the garbage that cable and satellite (including DirecTV) has come up with so far. Tivo's problem is their management.


That is just not the case. So few people have actually used a real Tivo they have no idea if it's good, bad or never existed in the first place. Tivo at it's height was not even 5 million, I think closer to 4. Now they are barely 2. And over 40 million have DVRs.
And if Tivo was so great their market share would not keep shrinking in the face of "crappy" cable and sat DVRs. People just aren't willing to pay for a "real" Tivo, plain and simple. Besides they fact they think they already have one. LOL

All people want is a digital VCR and nothing more. Any provider can offer them that. The Tivo UI isn't anything they want or need and they certainly aren't going to pay for it. Is there a niche market for Tivo and are there Tivo fans? Sure. But there aren't that many of them and this new DirecTivo HD (if it ever comes out) certainly isn't going to change that.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Tom Robertson said:


> #4 is not going to happen (at least for a while). The mod'ers sandbox would have to be extremely tight. Thus expensive. Or so limited as to be uninteresting.


If I recall my Tivo history, <= v2.52 was wide open and you could easily get free Tivo service by running a simple script on the box. v3.0 ended service theft (on the DTivo boxes) by moving the "you are a tivo subscriber" flag to the access card (assuming you weren't hacking that too).

At this point however, service theft is a non issue since DTV has successfully locked down the cards for like 5 or 6 yrs now.

As long as you aren't able to steal service, you should have free reign on the box.

DTV is kind of douchey on that now since you don't technically own the box in most cases.


----------



## tonyd79

JosephB said:


> A lot of people think Tivo's software is superior to the garbage that cable and satellite (including DirecTV) has come up with so far. Tivo's problem is their management.


And a lot of people think astrology is real.

Tivo is no longer superior to all DVRs. Especially the HR24.


----------



## Richierich

tonyd79 said:


> And a lot of people think astrology is real.
> 
> Tivo is no longer superior to all DVRs. Especially the HR24.


YUP, YUP, YUP!!! DITTO to your Post. TiVo's day has come and gone and their 15 minutes of Fame is over!!!


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> bam... you've got ~ 30 to 40 million potential subs and a good product.


Really? Suddenly Tivo is going to have like every DVR out there? Based on what?



SledgeHammer said:


> Now, one bell and whistle that people seem to want these days is Netflix / youtube streaming... the youtube streaming, ok, I guess you can do that... but the Netflix streaming would kill the PPV market. Cuz why pay $7 for a HD PPV when you can do the netflix streaming for just about free?


Meh. Every new Blu Ray player has Netflix streaming these days. Hardly a differentiator for a DVR.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> Really? Suddenly Tivo is going to have like every DVR out there? Based on what?


If they had DTV and DISH? Look, I know that 10yrs ago consumers had 20 choices of STBs on DTV, but you really don't need that. Its just confusion for customers and higher costs for support.

Just like you don't need the DTV box AND a Tivo box. Since we already know the Tivo will suck compared to the DTV box (all the missing features and all), why bother even releasing it?

My 30 - 40 million number was assuming the tivo became the only offering. Obviously won't happen today, but that was the case before. Tivo had DTV subs all to itself. UltimateTV was there for a few seconds too, but Tivo had DTV all to itself for a long time.



tonyd79 said:


> Meh. Every new Blu Ray player has Netflix streaming these days. Hardly a differentiator for a DVR.


My AVR has music / photo sharing. I use the one on my HR20. Its better and more convenient. No reason why streaming couldn't be better too... but won't happen.


----------



## tonyd79

"SledgeHammer" said:


> If they had DTV and DISH? Look, I know that 10yrs ago consumers had 20 choices of STBs on DTV, but you really don't need that. Its just confusion for customers and higher costs for support.
> 
> Just like you don't need the DTV box AND a Tivo box. Since we already know the Tivo will suck compared to the DTV box (all the missing features and all), why bother even releasing it?
> 
> My 30 - 40 million number was assuming the tivo became the only offering. Obviously won't happen today, but that was the case before. Tivo had DTV subs all to itself. UltimateTV was there for a few seconds too, but Tivo had DTV all to itself for a long time.
> 
> My AVR has music / photo sharing. I use the one on my HR20. Its better and more convenient. No reason why streaming couldn't be better too... but won't happen.


The Roku slays the TiVo netflix implementation. So does my Sony blu ray. The other assumption you are making is that TiVo would do things better.

I say they don't anymore.

I would be pissed if directv dropped the current dvr for TiVo.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> I say they don't anymore.


No argument there. I never said *any* Tivo was better then the DirecTV DVR. In fact, I've said that the DirecTV is way better then what Tivo is going to be putting out. I think a lot of people have said that.


----------



## tonyd79

"SledgeHammer" said:


> No argument there. I never said *any* Tivo was better then the DirecTV DVR. In fact, I've said that the DirecTV is way better then what Tivo is going to be putting out. I think a lot of people have said that.


Okay then.


----------



## MikeS.

I still own 2 Hughes HDVR2 Tivo boxes, we use 1 of them for the wife. I finally got fed up with waiting for a new D* Tivo dvr back in early Dec. I wound up with a H24-100 and I'm really liking it. 

When the HD goes on the current HDVR2 I'm going to pull it and replace with another H24. The wife will just have to learn how to work it.


----------



## wingrider01

SledgeHammer said:


> The stock is like $10 right now. That makes the company "worth" 1.1B on paper. In reality, Tivo ain't worth no 1.1B. I doubt I'd even buy them for something in the $300M to $500M range... Just not worth it.
> 
> And haven't you heard? They are about to be mis-managed even further. I remember reading something recently where Tivo is going to shift focus to services rather then HW. WTF. Why would anybody license Tivo software at this point?
> 
> Regardless of what Doug says , I still can't fathom that this box will ever see the light of day. It makes zero sense for DTV (aside from a lawsuit deal thing).
> 
> I've seen lots of companies with bad ideas die a deserved death, but Tivo actually had a good idea. So its kind of sad to see them on deaths bed. But they have no one to blame but management.


Personally cannot care less if the tivo box hits the street, I have one HR10 still running and it is hooked up in the garage for when I am working on restoring the Norton 850 commander. TIVo had a good idea - when they came out, now they are running in the middle of the pack. suspect that TIVO is worth more then you think to a buyer - just like a junk car is worth more then blue book value - in pieces - piece out their technology and patents and the return would be a lot higher. I do agree with you though anyone that looks at paying 1.1B for it is a idiot with more money then financial sense


----------



## bonscott87

MikeS. said:


> The wife will just have to learn how to work it.


And honestly I think this is a non issue for most, even though they think it is. When we got our first HR20 all those many years ago I gave the wife a quick tour of the box and explained a couple things like "Tivo did it this way, this is how you do it on this new box". She had it down pat in just a couple days and remarked to me that she was surprised how easy it was to use and she preferred it over the Tivo. One example was being able to just delete something quickly vs. the Tivo which asks "are you sure you want to delete" about 10 times (her words). "I just want it deleted dang it!" were her words. And she loved the one touch record from the guide. That feature alone sold her on the HR20.

So unless you have a wife (or husband for the gals out there) that is stubborn and really doesn't want to learn something new and fresh, I don't think getting an HR2x is that big of a deal.

YMMV of course.


----------



## scottchez

What if the reason for the long delay is so they could add MRV or WHDVR?

I am one of those who would never by the DirecTV Tivo if it was missing MRV.

Maybe they started the Alpha testing then realized through studies or feedback that it would be a floop with out MRV, so they then delayed it a year or what ever it ends up being so they could put MRV in.
You never know . . . we might get lucky and end up with good DireCTV HD Tivo


----------



## Doug Brott

You won't get lucky


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> You won't get lucky


So do you know what the real root cause of the 2 to 3 yr delay is? They had the HR10-250 as a starting point... and thats like 95%+ of what we expect the new box to be. It can't possibly take 2 to 3 yrs to port code to new hardware and add MPEG4 support and a few other minor things. Being a software engineer myself, that sounds like a 6 month project.

Its likely a search and replace for DoSomethingInTheMpeg2Way() to DoSomethingInTheMpeg4Way() and dropping in an MPEG4 library.


----------



## Doug Brott

At a bare minimum, they have to now support satellite locations that didn't exist in the first iteration.

Secondly .. Just as DIRECTV had some early trouble, I suspect TiVo had some trouble with MPEG4.

Oh, and a little thing called "locking down the OS" .. Remember the TiVo was quite hackable. Don't expect that in the next iteration.


----------



## ffemtreed

Doug Brott said:


> At a bare minimum, they have to now support satellite locations that didn't exist in the first iteration.
> 
> Secondly .. Just as DIRECTV had some early trouble, I suspect TiVo had some trouble with MPEG4.
> 
> Oh, and a little thing called "locking down the OS" .. Remember the TiVo was quite hackable. Don't expect that in the next iteration.


Anything is hackable! If there are hidden features that can be unlocked by "hacking" the unit, I suspect it won't take long for TIVO to leak that information out on how to "hack" the system.


----------



## Doug Brott

ffemtreed said:


> Anything is hackable! If there are hidden features that can be unlocked by "hacking" the unit, I suspect it won't take long for TIVO to leak that information out on how to "hack" the system.


We're talking about a $200 box .. If it costs you $1000 (or more) to hack it is it worth it?

Strictly speaking, I'm talking about "mass" hacking which was quite prevelant on the early TiVos. The HR2x (for example) hasn't been hacked largely because the #1 hack is to add capacity. DIRECTV gave that to us and you don't even have to open the box .. just plug an eSATA in and you're done.

I won't even dispute your comment that "Anything is hackable!" Because, yeah, with enough time and enough money .. it probably could be. As for TiVo "leaking" information. Yeah, I'm sure that would go over well with the lawyers 

Don't look for the system to be built quite the same as it used to be .. hacking will not be nearly as easy as it used to be and there is at least a reasonable possibility here that it will never be hacked.


----------



## Tom Robertson

SledgeHammer said:


> So do you know what the real root cause of the 2 to 3 yr delay is? They had the HR10-250 as a starting point... and thats like 95%+ of what we expect the new box to be. It can't possibly take 2 to 3 yrs to port code to new hardware and add MPEG4 support and a few other minor things. Being a software engineer myself, that sounds like a 6 month project.
> 
> Its likely a search and replace for DoSomethingInTheMpeg2Way() to DoSomethingInTheMpeg4Way() and dropping in an MPEG4 library.


At some point my only presumption becomes upper management at TiVo starved the project (and for cash flow reasons).

By the way, even with the base software provided by the hardware manufacturer(s), TiVo will most likely have to do a lot of hardware dependent software. The video, tuner, mpeg4 decoder, etc. hardware all need to have TiVo compatible drivers.

One top of that, the manufacturers software stubs often are marginal for performance or quality. I've talked to a couple development teams about the software libraries they get for video chips. Pretty much they've all had to use the base software as a starting example. So often the decoder libraries are very basic and need a lot of re-write to work.

So I can see it taking longer than 6 months, I am somewhat at a loss to explain much more than 12 months without resorting to "upper management".

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bonscott87

Agreed. I think a big part is that Tivo chose to put other projects ahead of the DirecTV project. There is a lot of evidence for this and even the media picked up on this later last year as Tivo rolled out their new Premier, rolled out with a cable company (RCN I think?) and also rolled out a product in Europe. All the while the DirecTV product kept getting more delays. That coupled with the shortage of programmers at Tivo and constant job postings.

At some point you have to look at the evidence that either the Tivo programmers are incompetent and/or it's a lot harder then they thought to lock it down from hackers and include the DirecTV stuff (like MRV).

OR upper management decided to take lower hanging fruit with these other deals first knowing that the new DirecTivo would be a disappointment and that it wasn't going to help their bottom line all that much. Thus suck that project dry of talent to get the other ones off the ground first, then go back. The only problem with this is that the DirecTV deal is obviously their most high profile one so they must know it's too late for this thing to actually sell well outside the hard core Tivo fans, the very few of them that are left.


----------



## SledgeHammer

That sucks. I think Tivo still has potential to be the best DVR on the market. I mean, it seems so obvious now, but who else has ideas like a QWERTY remote? The only other thing I've seen even approach that is T9 support. IMO T9 is majorly retarded hack. I can use the arrow keys on the ouija board faster then I can use T9.

Then again, I've been a software engineer at a lot of companies where I've WANTED to make the product awesome and wasn't allowed. Seriously. What kind of moron management has a very senior guy (I was #2 on a key project) walk up to them and say "I want to make this project awesome and here is how I want to do it" and Management says "No thanks... we want to keep the product lame how it is now". So instead, they just kind of had me in internet surfing / random bug fixing mode for 2yrs until the company shut down .

I suspect thats whats going on at Tivo. I never understood that mentality.

Oh wellz.


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> That sucks. I think Tivo still has potential to be the best DVR on the market. I mean, it seems so obvious now, but who else has ideas like a QWERTY remote? The only other thing I've seen even approach that is T9 support. IMO T9 is majorly retarded hack. I can use the arrow keys on the ouija board faster then I can use T9.


Seriously? QWERTY is not quite a Tivo innovation. I think Apple TV had one, like a decade ago.

As for QWERTY, big deal. I hardly type enough on a DVR to make a keyboard necessary. And, in the meantime, the QWERTY keyboard kind of locks me into using the Tivo remote, or makes me hack a universal remote. Not a great idea to me, actually a problem. If I had to use QWERTY to do searches, etc., I would think that this "innovation" was a detriment.

And the cellphone entry (not T9) that DirecTV uses is pretty good. Even better version is the Fios one where you can actually point on the screen to the keyboard as well.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> Seriously? QWERTY is not quite a Tivo innovation. I think Apple TV had one, like a decade ago.
> 
> As for QWERTY, big deal. I hardly type enough on a DVR to make a keyboard necessary. And, in the meantime, the QWERTY keyboard kind of locks me into using the Tivo remote, or makes me hack a universal remote. Not a great idea to me, actually a problem. If I had to use QWERTY to do searches, etc., I would think that this "innovation" was a detriment.
> 
> And the cellphone entry (not T9) that DirecTV uses is pretty good. Even better version is the Fios one where you can actually point on the screen to the keyboard as well.


Hmmm... a Google search seems to indicate that Apple TV got a QWERTY remote like a year ago. Apple TV and every other DVR is a rip off of Tivos original idea and Tivo has the patents to prove it . Has Apple TV even been around 10yrs? 

Isn't DTV using "triple tap" for the "cell phone entry"? Isn't triple tap T9? The thing I *hate* about triple tap or cell phone entry or whatever the hell you want to call it is thats its not really suitable for people who move fast. By that, I mean, if you do it slow and methodical, it works ok. If you are like me and you like to type fast, etc. it gets annoying because if you want to type a B for example, you have to press 2-2. The DTV remote and HR2x isn't exactly 100% accurate and sometimes you type 2-2 and get 2-2-2 or if you type fast and accidently hit 2-2-2 you have to start all over. So now a B took you 5 button presses. There is much less room for error with QWERTY.

Personally, I don't use season passes because they aren't very accurate. I use View Upcoming episodes on the Todo and history lists once or twice a week. If the show I'm looking for isn't in one of those lists, then I have to type it out.

The QWERTY remote is certainly not a deal breaker, but I'd rather have it then not have it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Look, if anyone had the original idea for a QWERTY remote it was me, I said it to several people including the TiVo rep at CES2007. But I didn't take a patent on it since my idea was based on prior art, namely QWERTY-equipped cell phones, some of which had been around since the 1990s. 

Technically triple-tap is not equal to T9 but in many ways the terms are equivalent, yes.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Not quite sure what that has to do with anything, but let's not besmirch Mr. Rich's boss, especially since I believe Mr. Rich is no longer employed by that person.


----------



## smiddy

I am sorry I haven't been able to keep up with this thread as I would like to have. Are these DirecTiVo boxes coming out this quarter or next quarter?


----------



## Doug Brott

Sorry, but an iPad App for control would be much more useful to me than a QWERTY keyboard.


----------



## devildog820

Doug Brott said:


> Sorry, but an iPad App for control would be much more useful to me than a QWERTY keyboard.


This. And an iPhone app.


----------



## ndole

Doug Brott said:


> Sorry, but an iPad App for control would be much more useful to me than a QWERTY keyboard.


Not everyone has a $500 remote control though :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

ndole_mbnd said:


> Not everyone has a $500 remote control though :lol:


Doesn't the QWERTY remote (single purpose) remote from TiVo retail around $100?


----------



## ndole

Doug Brott said:


> Doesn't the QWERTY remote (single purpose) remote from TiVo retail around $100?


They're not cheap. I can understand that (just like the RF remotes) including QWERTY remotes with every IRD isn't feasible. But I'd love the opportunity to buy one if Directv designed one.


----------



## bungi43

bonscott87 said:


> 10%? It's not even that anymore. Tivo's latest numbers show they lost another few hundred thousand and stand at barely over 2 million in a market of well over 40 million DVR households.
> 
> That's barely 5%.
> 
> And shrinking.
> 
> That is just not the case. So few people have actually used a real Tivo they have no idea if it's good, bad or never existed in the first place. Tivo at it's height was not even 5 million, I think closer to 4. Now they are barely 2. And over 40 million have DVRs.
> And if Tivo was so great their market share would not keep shrinking in the face of "crappy" cable and sat DVRs. People just aren't willing to pay for a "real" Tivo, plain and simple. Besides they fact they think they already have one. LOL
> 
> All people want is a digital VCR and nothing more. Any provider can offer them that. The Tivo UI isn't anything they want or need and they certainly aren't going to pay for it. Is there a niche market for Tivo and are there Tivo fans? Sure. But there aren't that many of them and this new DirecTivo HD (if it ever comes out) certainly isn't going to change that.


Model #'s aside, I have a SD Tivo DVR, and a DirecTV HD DVR. I love the Tivo, never been a huge fan of the D one. With that said, the D one isn't so bad I won't use it.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> Doesn't the QWERTY remote (single purpose) remote from TiVo retail around $100?


$65 from Amazon with free shipping.


----------



## SledgeHammer

devildog820 said:


> This. And an iPhone app.


Uh... DirecTV already has an iphone app.

http://itunes.apple.com/app/directv/id307386350?mt=8

EDIT: Oh, unless you meant to use as a remote control.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

But getting back to the subject of TiVo, the question on everyone's mind is, of course, if it's true that TiVo isn't doing much more than an MPEG-4 version of its circa-2004 HR10, then why is it taking so long? I come back to the idea that TiVo, the company, simply doesn't have enough money to buy the staff required. I think that Dish's lawsuit has drained them, and they don't have enough ongoing income.


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> Hmmm... a Google search seems to indicate that Apple TV got a QWERTY remote like a year ago. Apple TV and every other DVR is a rip off of Tivos original idea and Tivo has the patents to prove it . Has Apple TV even been around 10yrs?
> 
> Isn't DTV using "triple tap" for the "cell phone entry"? Isn't triple tap T9? The thing I *hate* about triple tap or cell phone entry or whatever the hell you want to call it is thats its not really suitable for people who move fast. By that, I mean, if you do it slow and methodical, it works ok. If you are like me and you like to type fast, etc. it gets annoying because if you want to type a B for example, you have to press 2-2. The DTV remote and HR2x isn't exactly 100% accurate and sometimes you type 2-2 and get 2-2-2 or if you type fast and accidently hit 2-2-2 you have to start all over. So now a B took you 5 button presses. There is much less room for error with QWERTY.
> 
> Personally, I don't use season passes because they aren't very accurate. I use View Upcoming episodes on the Todo and history lists once or twice a week. If the show I'm looking for isn't in one of those lists, then I have to type it out.
> 
> The QWERTY remote is certainly not a deal breaker, but I'd rather have it then not have it.


Depends on what you call a remote. maybe it was not Apple TV but Web TV. one of them had a keyboard. Remote, keyboard. Whatever. Same thing to me.

As for T9 versus tap/tap. Different animal. T9 is predictive in your typing. To get CAT on T9, you type 2-2-8 and T9 attempts to match to the word you want. If you don't like the one it picked, you pick another from a list. Tap/tap (not sure what the real name is) would be 2-2-2 pause 2 8 and you get exactly what you typed.

Fios allows you to do this graphically.

As for errors. When you are typing just a few words, who cares? I find the tap/tap system to be rather quick (although I prefer that the graphic changes on Fios than what it does on DirecTV) for short bursts. No way I would want to type this response on either one, but if you are typing this response on either one, you are using the wrong device.

Anyway, how in dog's name do you support unified remotes when you have a beast of thing like Tivo has now as an option? You don't. That, to me, makes it totally useless.


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> Uh... DirecTV already has an iphone app.
> 
> http://itunes.apple.com/app/directv/id307386350?mt=8
> 
> EDIT: Oh, unless you meant to use as a remote control.


That, as I understand it, is coming. At least for iPad.


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> But getting back to the subject of TiVo, the question on everyone's mind is, of course, if it's true that TiVo isn't doing much more than an MPEG-4 version of its circa-2004 HR10, then why is it taking so long? I come back to the idea that TiVo, the company, simply doesn't have enough money to buy the staff required. I think that Dish's lawsuit has drained them, and they don't have enough ongoing income.


I agree and that relegated it to a "Back Burner" Status because it wasn't that important as a Revenue Generator.


----------



## tonyd79

richierich said:


> I agree and that relegated it to a "Back Burner" Status because it wasn't that important as a Revenue Generator.


Or other contracts put deadlines on things. Like the RCN contract.

Of course, that, too, comes down to revenue generation. Miss deadlines and you don't get paid.

The DirecTV contract seems to have been pretty loosy-goosy on the timeline.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And I have experience with this in other areas... there's a minimum effort required in any technology industry just to stay on par with where you are now. Money must be spent all the time on new stuff and new staff. If you put off doing so long enough, it becomes almost impossible to spend enough money to get caught up. 

I think TiVo may be at that point, where technology is moving so fast and they are so far behind that they may never catch up. 

We started hearing about the Comcast Tivo about 6 years ago and it still hasn't reached a national rollout phase. This is the company that we're dealing with here.


----------



## Richierich

tonyd79 said:


> The DirecTV contract seems to have been pretty loosy-goosy on the timeline.


Maybe Directv doesn't care one way or another if the New Directivo comes out.

If it doesn't come out then everyone wonders why and continues to enjoy their Directv DVR which is getting better and better every day. So they Win.

If it does come out maybe Directv picks up a few more subs so they Win that way.

If the New Directivo doesn't support WHDVR then it will be a Bust and not very many people will embrace it or buy it.

End Of Story.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

You know, Mr. Rich, you're a very smart fellow.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> And I have experience with this in other areas... there's a minimum effort required in any technology industry just to stay on par with where you are now. Money must be spent all the time on new stuff and new staff. If you put off doing so long enough, it becomes almost impossible to spend enough money to get caught up.
> 
> I think TiVo may be at that point, where technology is moving so fast and they are so far behind that they may never catch up.
> 
> We started hearing about the Comcast Tivo about 6 years ago and it still hasn't reached a national rollout phase. This is the company that we're dealing with here.


Yeah, I used to work on a side software product and was pretty much the leader in my market space as far as feature set and quality of code went. Then I got bored and stopped work on it for a year or so. I was never able to catch up to the competition again (unless I had hired a ton of people) and just abandoned it entirely a short while later. Although, to be honest, at the point I stopped work on it was probably at the point the product became irrelevant. There are still 2 larger competitors in business 5yrs later, but what the heck for? It was a specialized C++ library for Windows and C++ isn't really used for Windows anymore (except for maintaining legacy code).

I don't think Tivo is at that point. Has anybody really leap frogged them? Don't they have all the features DirecTV has in the premiere?

Sounds like just a case of DirecTV handcuffing them as far as feature set goes and Tivo managment being lame.


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> You know, Mr. Rich, you're a very smart fellow.


Coming from you that is Quite a Compliment and I just might have to save this post??? :lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Sledgehammer, I was with you until the last paragraph. Let's not presume facts not in evidence. Maybe DIRECTV is dictating a lot, or maybe TiVo is only able to deliver a little. 

The one thing that is clear based on the final DIRECTV TiVo products from 2006 is that DIRECTV was not satisfied with the hackability of the product. The R10 SD DVR was specifically engineered so many of the hacks that worked on older TiVo DVRs would not work on it. In the intervening years DIRECTV has kept their boxes largely hack-proof, even engineering them to make it harder to replace the internal drives without special tools. 

So I think it's safe to say, DIRECTV is very likely dictating that the new product be as unhackable as possible.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> But getting back to the subject of TiVo, the question on everyone's mind is, of course, if it's true that TiVo isn't doing much more than an MPEG-4 version of its circa-2004 HR10, then why is it taking so long? I come back to the idea that TiVo, the company, simply doesn't have enough money to buy the staff required. I think that Dish's lawsuit has drained them, and they don't have enough ongoing income.


Didn't Tivo win the lawsuit? I know Dish has appealed it a lot, but I think as it stands right now, Dish still owes Tivo, no?

I know there was a $104M payment already.

But doesn't the loser have to pay the winners lawyer fees too?

I used to work with a guy who filed a frivilous lawsuit against California (although he didn't believe it to be frivilous LOL), he lost and now he has a judgement against him for $200k in lawyer fees.

EDIT: Hmm.. apperently Tivo still wants another $300M.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm far from being an expert but yes, TiVo won but I don't think they've gotten the money they expected to get. As far as lawyer's fees, I think that's negotiated on a case-by-case basis and I don't know the answer here.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Coming from you that is Quite a Compliment and I just might have to save this post??? :lol:


Then again....that word "sarcasm" came to mind, if not for a second.


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then again....that word "sarcasm" came to mind, if not for a second.


I don't think that Stuart was being sarcastic but probably agrees with my assessment as he is a Pretty Smart Dude also.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> I don't think that Stuart was being sarcastic but probably agrees with my assessment as he is a Pretty Smart Dude also.


He also has a great sense of humor and timing. :lol:


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> He also has a great sense of humor and timing. :lol:


I'm not buying that.

I think he was just paying me a sincere and a very nice compliment and it was taken as such.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> I'm not buying that.


Figured you could afford to *buy it *more than others... :lol:

Then again...plenty of folks also figured they'd see the new Tivobox in 2009 too.


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Figured you could afford to *buy it *more than others... :lol:
> 
> Then again...plenty of folks also figured they'd see the new Tivobox in 2009 too.


I hear It's Coming SOON!!!


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> Sledgehammer, I was with you until the last paragraph. Let's not presume facts not in evidence. Maybe DIRECTV is dictating a lot, or maybe TiVo is only able to deliver a little.
> 
> The one thing that is clear based on the final DIRECTV TiVo products from 2006 is that DIRECTV was not satisfied with the hackability of the product. The R10 SD DVR was specifically engineered so many of the hacks that worked on older TiVo DVRs would not work on it. In the intervening years DIRECTV has kept their boxes largely hack-proof, even engineering them to make it harder to replace the internal drives without special tools.
> 
> So I think it's safe to say, DIRECTV is very likely dictating that the new product be as unhackable as possible.


Wasn't DirecTV dictating the feature set on the HR10? I seem to recall that the stand-alone Tivos had a lot of features that the HR10 didn't.

Why bother replacing the HD in a DirecTV box when you can just use the ESATA port? If Tivos had an ESATA port or USB or whatever, nobody would have bothered opening the box. Most of the hacks were pretty lame anyways. Like CallerID on your TV, etc.

The conspiracy theorist in me always thought DTV had "weak" security on purpose to attract subs early on and get them hooked on the service. At the peak of hacking, I think people estimated 10 million subs and at least 1 million hacked boxes.

Cuz come on, the first gen access cards had ZERO security on them and the current ones have like Nuclear Rocket Launch Code level security on them . Sure thats technology evolving, but still... .


----------



## Tom Robertson

SledgeHammer said:


> Wasn't DirecTV dictating the feature set on the HR10? I seem to recall that the stand-alone Tivos had a lot of features that the HR10 didn't.
> 
> Why bother replacing the HD in a DirecTV box when you can just use the ESATA port? If Tivos had an ESATA port or USB or whatever, nobody would have bothered opening the box. Most of the hacks were pretty lame anyways. Like CallerID on your TV, etc.
> 
> The conspiracy theorist in me always thought DTV had "weak" security on purpose to attract subs early on and get them hooked on the service. At the peak of hacking, I think people estimated 10 million subs and at least 1 million hacked boxes.
> 
> Cuz come on, the first gen access cards had ZERO security on them and the current ones have like Nuclear Rocket Launch Code level security on them . Sure thats technology evolving, but still... .


RE: HR10-250 features -- unconfirmed rumors that DIRECTV dictated what features would be allowed vs. what TiVo would or would not support in a DIRECTV branded form. And likely as not, you'd have to have been a fly in the negotiation rooms as they discussed each feature.

RE: Hacks--those were all TiVo's system design ie. lack of security. Most of the hacks originated in the standalone units then migrated to the DIRECTiVos.

RE: Access card technologies... A lot of hard work went into hacking the access cards and data streams. They weren't trivial hacks. And NDS did what they could to counter the hacks. Ultimately the technology was not good enough.

Alas, NDS's next round wasn't much more secure. I suspect lots of heads hurt (or got rolled) when that round was so quickly broken.

I don't think DIRECTV really was happy with loose security. It cost them millions in revenue. Maybe even a billion or so if as many as 1M people actually used broke cards.

Now, back to the current TiVos, or what will, eventually, someday, maybe become the next TiVos. I know security is very important. The TiVos were weakened by the fact the OS was stored on the disk. By storing the OS in flash memory, it becomes that much harder to get access to.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bonscott87

SledgeHammer said:


> Most of the hacks were pretty lame anyways. Like CallerID on your TV, etc.


I think the hack that was most bothersome was being able to copy the recorded programs to a PC. *THAT* ruffled more then one feather among the content providers and told DirecTV to stop or else. Thus the R10 that I believe only was hacked thru a chip replacement on the actual motherboard.

Oh...and stealing service was an issue as well, including Tivo service.


----------



## SledgeHammer

bonscott87 said:


> I think the hack that was most bothersome was being able to copy the recorded programs to a PC.


Well, I can see how that was bothersome in 2002, but in 2011? Go to pretty much any TV website and pretty much every single TV and movie is online nowadays.

So I can't copy a show to my PC from my DVR, but I can take an HDMI output from my TV and get a perfect digital recording? LMAO.


----------



## JBernardK

bonscott87 said:


> I think the hack that was most bothersome was being able to copy the recorded programs to a PC. *THAT* ruffled more then one feather among the content providers and told DirecTV to stop or else.


This is a feature of the TiVo HD for cable and works as long as the cable provider does not set the no copy flag. Most only do it for premium channels.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect that folks can safely assume there will a much more secure (hack-resistent) version of the HD Tivobox this time around, as well as the MPEG4 encoding. The days of hacking DVR code in the new models these days are pretty much gone.


----------



## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> This is a feature of the TiVo HD for cable and works as long as the cable provider does not set the no copy flag. Most only do it for premium channels.


You're talking about the legal copy or "to go" setup. bonscott is talking about a hack years ago to copy content directly from the TiVo to a PC regardless of flag settings and encryption.


----------



## harsh

SledgeHammer said:


> Why bother replacing the HD in a DirecTV box when you can just use the ESATA port?


Given that one of the single largest technical threads on this site discusses "Working eSATA setups", the idea of replacing the internal hard drive has a certain appeal (aside from it being expressly forbidden for most).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Given that *one of the single largest technical threads* on this site discusses "Working eSATA setups", the idea of *replacing the internal hard drive *has a certain appeal (aside from it being *expressly forbidden for most*).


*That statement has more twists and turns than Lombard Street in San Fran.*


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Not to mention it has nothing to do with TiVo. For the record, I am sure Mr. Rich is a very smart person, although I think it a pity that there is an obvious defect in the Shift Key on his keyboard, which seems to operate by itself on occasion


----------



## Syzygy

"Shift Key defective." Nicely put, Stuart.  Although I must add that the K in your "Key" is also defective. 'Tis a pity, indeed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Not to mention it has nothing to do with TiVo. For the record, I am sure Mr. Rich is a very smart person, although I think it a pity that there is an obvious defect in the Shift Key on his keyboard, which seems to operate by itself on occasion


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> Not to mention it has nothing to do with TiVo. For the record, I am sure Mr. Rich is a very smart person, although I think it a pity that there is an obvious defect in the Shift Key on his keyboard, which seems to operate by itself on occasion


We're working on the defective shift key and hopefully I will get it fixed SOON!!! :lol:

It gets stuck occasionally and might need a little WD40.


----------



## rbird

Mike Bertelson said:


> How long ago did you receive your invitation?
> 
> Mike


Umm...early December, maybe?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> We're working on the defective shift key and hopefully I will get it fixed SOON!!! :lol:
> 
> It gets stuck occasionally *and might need a little WD40*.


You or the keyboard? :lol:

Back to the topic...


rbird said:


> Umm...early December, maybe?


That's about right...a number of folks got those "round two" invites.

It would be less than shocking to see that round of testing to take 120+ days.


----------



## cypherx

Any chance the new Tivo iPad app will work with DirecTivo?
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/18/tivo-premiere-app-for-ipad-review/

Jason N. Sr. Director of Video Products and Video Network Operations at RCN, stated that they will eventually see a code update to the RCN Tivo that will allow the iPad app to work. It's not working with today's code release for MSO's, but shortly Tivo will release an update to RCN for testing.

Will this type of partnership (like the RCN/Tivo , Suddenlink/Tivo) work with DirecTV? At least the RCN/Suddenlink Tivo is the Premiere with Pandora Radio built in.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

There is always a chance, but I'd say it's a very, very slim one.


----------



## JosephB

Depends how close the DirecTV Tivo software is to the baseline Tivo Premier software. If it's close and only requires a minor update, then maybe. If it's vastly different on the backend, then don't count on it.


----------



## SledgeHammer

JosephB said:


> Depends how close the DirecTV Tivo software is to the baseline Tivo Premier software. If it's close and only requires a minor update, then maybe. If it's vastly different on the backend, then don't count on it.


Sadly, its a well established fact (straight from DirecTV and Tivos mouths) that this box will be using the OLD Tivo software, not the Tivo Premiere software :nono2:.

There has been no indication that this fact has changed. Thats not to say it hasn't, but as far as we know at this point, the box will be nothing more then the HR10-250 running on a Thompson Reference Design box with MPEG4 and new sat location support and the built in OTA removed.

Its unlikely you will get any of the new Tivo features... this thing will likely be a stripped to the max barebones DVR (i.e. no MRV, no WHDVR, etc).

If you are asking yourself "why in the blue hell would Tivo / DirecTV release such a useless piece of garbage?", go read the 1300 pages of people wondering the same exact thing .

And at this point, many people are on the fence as to *IF* it will get released. Seeing as its been delayed for years so far.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> There is always a chance, but I'd say it's a very, very slim one.


----------



## cypherx

I don't know why Tivo would want to castrate their product line so bad for DirecTV. With other providers like RCN, Suddenlink, and Virgin Media, they are going no holds bar with the Tivo Premiere technology (and MORE in terms of Virgin Media).

Do you think they backed themselves into the corner when they chose Flash to write the new UI? Perhaps the reference DirecTivo design CPU can't handle flash? I often criticize Tivo for going with Flash, but I can understand their logic. However there are better ways to accomplish the 'frills' with less CPU cycles and memory footprint than Adobe Flash.

If only their original design was a little more modular. IE) so what if the CPU wasn't powerful enough. It would be modular enough that a faster CPU could sit on the bus. Or the MPEG4/SWM/DECA tuner could be modularized and placed on a newer architected mainboard. Or Memory could be increased as costs came down from the original announcement.

This is what made the PC take off as rapidly as it did. You can just swap out a CPU, or Memory, or Video card. It's all based on standards. While standards have been changing more rapidly in the past few years, at least it's still a standardized and modular system, within reason. Sure if I upgrade now, I need a motherboard, cpu and memory. However my PCI-E video card and ATX 2.0 power supply would still work. So would my ATX tower case (been using it since 2001 and it's seen 3 different systems in it's day). Tivo and DirecTV should of built this thing from the ground up based on standard interconnects, power requirements, bus transport, etc... Then as they see it's taking so long, they can drop in a CPU with maybe 2 cores or clock it faster so that it can run the flash based premiere software.

What I like about RCN is their transparency. Jason openly speaks as much as he can on Broadbandreports.com in the RCN forums. This level of transparency keeps the customers informed and enthusiastic about products, beta tests, bugfixes and new features in the pipeline. The silence with DirecTivo is the complete opposite of the new generation way of doing business. It's time for companies to evolve and cater to Gen-Y and the fast paced information age consumers that could potentially be customers for life if made happy. However this new generation of customers are quick to judge and spread the word of any negativity within a product or company. Time for DirecTV and Tivo to be PROACTIVE not REACTIVE.


----------



## SledgeHammer

cypherx said:


> I don't know why Tivo would want to castrate their product line so bad for DirecTV. With other providers like RCN, Suddenlink, and Virgin Media, they are going no holds bar with the Tivo Premiere technology (and MORE in terms of Virgin Media).


Obviously no one outside of Tivo mgmt knows for sure, but the common consensus on DBStalk seems to be that Tivo pretty much bankrupted themselves with the DISH trial(s) and/or DirecTV doesn't really want the box out (but "allowed it" as part of the settlement with Tivo). There is really no benefits from DirecTVs side to having another box. One other theory is that this is a super back burner project for Tivo and they care about it as much as DirecTV does (which is very little to none). They know the box (as is rumored) will be a dud. The Premiere and cable deals are where the focus is at.


----------



## newsposter

SledgeHammer said:


> Sadly, its a well established fact (straight from DirecTV and Tivos mouths) that this box will be using the OLD Tivo software, .


yippee...no SP limits! and i'd love if they put the animation back on the box.



SledgeHammer said:


> If you are asking yourself "why in the blue hell would Tivo / DirecTV release such a useless piece of garbage?", go read the 1300 pages of people wondering the same exact thing .
> 
> .


i know the answer...they are releasing it because i want it and i'm finally getting something i want in life


----------



## Shades228

SledgeHammer said:


> Obviously no one outside of Tivo mgmt knows for sure, but the common consensus on DBStalk seems to be that Tivo pretty much bankrupted themselves with the DISH trial(s) and/or DirecTV doesn't really want the box out (but "allowed it" as part of the settlement with Tivo). There is really no benefits from DirecTVs side to having another box. One other theory is that this is a super back burner project for Tivo and they care about it as much as DirecTV does (which is very little to none). They know the box (as is rumored) will be a dud. The Premiere and cable deals are where the focus is at.


It could also be that TiVo knows they missed the boat with DirecTV and won't be even close to the numbers they had before. They could be low prioritizing this because they don't think that the ROI will be as large so they aren't spending much on it and letting it take it's time. We will never truly know but this is a very valid scenario. If the HR series were like cable dvr's there would be a much higher demand but the HR series is a good product and most people are very happy with it.


----------



## Davenlr

I think Tivo is busy debugging their HDGUI on the Premier, and probably has that on top priority.


----------



## bdcottle

I'm sorry but I think you guys are grossly overestimating the importance of WHDVR / MRV and I'll give you three reasons why. 

1. My home only has one TV and I know plenty of other people who only have one TV in their home. Not everyone has a need for 7 DVR's in their home. To me it's a total waste of resources. In this situation it's like a car dealer trying to sell a high end stereo to a deaf person.

2. A lot of people like to keep their DVR programs separate, as in one DVR for the kids programs, one for family programs and one for adult programs in the bedroom. In this situation you don't want DVR's to share programs.

3. Most people aren't tech savvy enough to use WHDVR / MRV. We are very advanced here at DBSTalk but the average user wouldn't be able to figure out how to use it if they knew it was there. I tried to explain it to my brother in law (who has a HR20) but he looked at me like I was trying to explain string theory.

So if the DirecTIVO is missing WHDVR / MRV I don't think it would be a deal breaker for most people.


----------



## matt

bdcottle said:


> 3. Most people aren't tech savvy enough to use WHDVR / MRV.


Seriously?  Is hitting LIST on the remote that hard of a concept?


----------



## Doug Brott

bdcottle said:


> 3. Most people aren't tech savvy enough to use WHDVR / MRV. We are very advanced here at DBSTalk but the average user wouldn't be able to figure out how to use it if they knew it was there. I tried to explain it to my brother in law (who has a HR20) but he looked at me like I was trying to explain string theory.
> 
> So if the DirecTIVO is missing WHDVR / MRV I don't think it would be a deal breaker for most people.


Did you say you could pause a show in one room and then watch in another? I'm sure it's simple enough for anyone with more than one TV.

I do agree its not for everyone, but WHDS is something most people will appreciate.


----------



## fernly

Sayeth htdtvfan001,


> I suspect that folks can safely assume there will a much more secure (hack-resistent) version of the HD Tivobox this time around, as well as the MPEG4 encoding. The days of hacking DVR code in the new models these days are pretty much gone.


Is there an "ironic" smiley? 'cause it's ironic you would say that considering the time from the release of a new smartphone to "jailbreaking" it is typically about 48 hours. Well, it did take just over a month to jailbreak Windows Phone 7.

Smartphone software is no less sophisticated than DVR software. The DVR engineers do have the advantage that their platform doesn't have to support "apps" or provide a public API. Oh, wait: support for XBMC or other mediacenter standards is exactly that.


----------



## harsh

Stuart Sweet said:


> Not to mention it has nothing to do with TiVo.


It will if the new DIRECTiVo shares a similarly sized hard drive with its DIRECTV twin. Imagine the damage you could do with a full complement of high definition Season Passes.


----------



## SledgeHammer

fernly said:


> Sayeth htdtvfan001,Is there an "ironic" smiley? 'cause it's ironic you would say that considering the time from the release of a new smartphone to "jailbreaking" it is typically about 48 hours. Well, it did take just over a month to jailbreak Windows Phone 7.
> 
> Smartphone software is no less sophisticated than DVR software. The DVR engineers do have the advantage that their platform doesn't have to support "apps" or provide a public API. Oh, wait: support for XBMC or other mediacenter standards is exactly that.


Major lolz!!! You are comparing jailbreaking a phone with hacking Tivo and/or DirecTV???

DirecTV has been unhackable for 5+ YEARS now.

A standalone Tivo can not be hacked. You need to connect to Tivo's servers to get guide data. If you do not have an account, you can not connect. PERIOD. A DirecTivo would get its guide data from the satellite, BUT access control for the DVR service is done on the access card.

The access card used to be a major source of piracy for DirecTV, but again, it has been completely secure for over 5 YEARS.

I think its pretty easy to hack though. You can try it yourself. All you need to do is factor a 256 bit prime number to get 2 56 bit prime number keys. No biggie . I believe with current technology, you should be done in a few MILLION YEARS (SERIOUSLY -- factoring prime numbers is a very hard problem). Like I said, no biggie. But once you get those 2 keys, the system is yours for the taking!!!

An added incentive is that you would also win a lot of prestigious awards for your work. Everybody wants to know how to factor large prime numbers in a few seconds or minutes.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

fernly said:


> Sayeth htdtvfan001,Is there an "ironic" smiley? 'cause it's ironic you would say that considering the time from the release of a new smartphone to "jailbreaking" it is typically about 48 hours. Well, it did take just over a month to jailbreak Windows Phone 7.
> 
> Smartphone software is no less sophisticated than DVR software. The DVR engineers do have the advantage that their platform doesn't have to support "apps" or provide a public API. Oh, wait: support for XBMC or other mediacenter standards is exactly that.


Not gonna happen. These new DVRs (TiVo Series 3, DirecTV) are definitely beyond the capabilities of all but the most skilled electronics experts. It is so difficult as to be impossible for the general user. For all intents and purposes, it* is *impossible. So, what's ironic here is you telling _hdtvfan0001_ that he's wrong. 

Let's be careful with this discussion. Hacking is a forbidden subject. The general context of what's already been talked about is as in depth as it can get. If you want to discuss how-to, you'll have to go somewhere else.

Mike


----------



## RobertE

bdcottle said:


> I'm sorry but I think you guys are grossly overestimating the importance of WHDVR / MRV and I'll give you three reasons why.
> 
> 1. My home only has one TV and I know plenty of other people who only have one TV in their home. Not everyone has a need for 7 DVR's in their home. To me it's a total waste of resources. In this situation it's like a car dealer trying to sell a high end stereo to a deaf person.
> 
> 2. A lot of people like to keep their DVR programs separate, as in one DVR for the kids programs, one for family programs and one for adult programs in the bedroom. In this situation you don't want DVR's to share programs.
> 
> 3. Most people aren't tech savvy enough to use WHDVR / MRV. We are very advanced here at DBSTalk but the average user wouldn't be able to figure out how to use it if they knew it was there. I tried to explain it to my brother in law (who has a HR20) but he looked at me like I was trying to explain string theory.
> 
> So if the DirecTIVO is missing WHDVR / MRV I don't think it would be a deal breaker for most people.


From my daily experience, you couldn't be more wrong about the importance & update of WHDVRs. It is important to people, and the general public has little issue with how it operates.


----------



## BattleScott

Shades228 said:


> It could also be that TiVo knows they missed the boat with DirecTV and won't be even close to the numbers they had before. They could be low prioritizing this because they don't think that the ROI will be as large so they aren't spending much on it and letting it take it's time. We will never truly know but this is a very valid scenario. If the HR series were like cable dvr's there would be a much higher demand but the HR series is a good product and most people are very happy with it.


B-I-N-G-O. I think it's also a pretty real possibility that they were more interested in the market value of the "announcement" of the renewed DirecTV partnership than the actual product itself.


----------



## ffemtreed

BattleScott said:


> B-I-N-G-O. I think it's also a pretty real possibility that they were more interested in the market value of the "announcement" of the renewed DirecTV partnership than the actual product itself.


Which is exactly one of the reasons I am disappointed with DTV. They pretty much mislead customers and blatantly lied about having a new TIVO box "in the next couple of months". They should have just said we signed a new deal with TIVO but we don't have any timeline on when a new TIVO box will be available instead of stringing everyone on for years.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ffemtreed said:


> Which is exactly one of the reasons I am disappointed *with DTV. They pretty much mislead customers and blatantly lied about having a new TIVO box *"in the next couple of months". They should have just said we signed a new deal with TIVO but we don't have any timeline on when a new TIVO box will be available instead of stringing everyone on for years.


The misleading originated from TiVo, who is years behind schedule.

DirecTV was led to believe themselves that this would all be done a while back, but *TiVo* failed to deliver (yet again) on a deadline. This has been documented and stated at nauseum, yet apparently some TiVo diehards are still in denial, and continue to point the finger in the wrong direction.


----------



## ffemtreed

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The misleading originated from TiVo, who is years behind schedule.
> 
> DirecTV was led to believe themselves that this would all be done a while back, but *TiVo* failed to deliver (yet again) on a deadline. This has been documented and stated at nauseum, yet apparently some TiVo diehards are still in denial, and continue to point the finger in the wrong direction.


Regardless of whom is to blame, I pay and get my service from directv. Ultimately they are responsible to their customers.

I firmly believe that DTV never wanted the new tivo box to see the light of day.


----------



## tonyd79

ffemtreed said:


> Regardless of whom is to blame, I pay and get my service from directv. Ultimately they are responsible to their customers.
> 
> I firmly believe that DTV never wanted the new tivo box to see the light of day.


Hmmm. Let's see. UPS says they are going to deliver your package on Friday. Then an earthquake happens and all routes to your home are shutoff. Blame UPS?

Or maybe DirecTV should have created a Tivo themselves. Oh, wait, they kind of did.


----------



## ffemtreed

tonyd79 said:


> Hmmm. Let's see. UPS says they are going to deliver your package on Friday. Then an earthquake happens and all routes to your home are shutoff. Blame UPS?
> 
> Or maybe DirecTV should have created a Tivo themselves. Oh, wait, they kind of did.


That is a great relevant comparison!!!! Fits this situation to a perfect T!!!! way to go.

PS -- Yes DTV did create their own box, too bad the interface looks like something out of the 80's and its slow as molasses in January!

If the DTV box would respond promptly to remote commands, have a fast list style guide and double the season pass limit I would be 99% happy with the DTV's copy of the TIVO. I can even live with the 8bit interface as long as the guide is close to the old TIVO's.


----------



## sigma1914

ffemtreed said:


> That is a great relevant comparison!!!! Fits this situation to a perfect T!!!! way to go.
> 
> PS -- Yes DTV did create their own box, too bad the interface looks like something out of the 80's and its slow as molasses in January!
> 
> If the DTV box would respond promptly to remote commands, have a fast list style guide and double the season pass limit I would be 99% happy with the DTV's copy of the TIVO. I can even live with the 8bit interface as long as the guide is close to the old TIVO's.


It's all about you! Contrary to popular belief, there are others who don't need 50+ SP or want a list guide. Speed, that's a plus everyone can benefit from. How speedy was reordering season passes on Tivo?

P.S. I'm glad Tivo's interface is gone. It was useless bells, whistles, bleeps, & bloops.


----------



## Doug Brott

ffemtreed said:


> Which is exactly one of the reasons I am disappointed with DTV. They pretty much mislead customers and blatantly lied about having a new TIVO box "in the next couple of months". They should have just said we signed a new deal with TIVO but we don't have any timeline on when a new TIVO box will be available instead of stringing everyone on for years.


huh? The Press Release which (in reality) is the only official place for information was release in September of 2008 .. It stated quite clearly that the new DIRECTV TiVo would be available in the 2nd half of 2009. So "in the next couple of months" was never, ever stated by DIRECTV or TiVo.

We are just over 12 months removed from the initial deadline. Up until very recently (read: sometime in the past 45 days or so) .. DIRECTV was waiting for TiVo along with the rest of us. The qualification/production cycle is in progress, but any hitch restarts the clock. April is gone .. It will be sometime after that .. Maybe in a J month.


----------



## ffemtreed

Doug Brott said:


> huh? The Press Release which (in reality) is the only official place for information was release in September of 2008 .. It stated quite clearly that the new DIRECTV TiVo would be available in the 2nd half of 2009. So "in the next couple of months" was never, ever stated by DIRECTV or TiVo.
> 
> We are just over 12 months removed from the initial deadline. Up until very recently (read: sometime in the past 45 days or so) .. DIRECTV was waiting for TiVo along with the rest of us. The qualification/production cycle is in progress, but any hitch restarts the clock. April is gone .. It will be sometime after that .. Maybe in a J month.


Multiple CSR's and Retention reps promised me a free Tivo when it was released in the next couple of months. They even tried to set a shipping date with me. Promised me multiple times it was noted in my account notes and there would be no trouble in getting the new Tivo. I know of others who called and asked about the TIVO's as well and were told "a couple of months". This was all before I started following this site. I now know better!

Now you can say that you shouldn't believe CSR's and what they tell you but what does that say about the company??? If I were in charge I would be thoroughly embarrassed about having that kind of reputation.


----------



## ffemtreed

sigma1914 said:


> It's all about you! Contrary to popular belief, there are others who don't need 50+ SP or want a list guide. Speed, that's a plus everyone can benefit from. How speedy was reordering season passes on Tivo?
> 
> P.S. I'm glad Tivo's interface is gone. It was useless bells, whistles, bleeps, & bloops.


There might be others who get by with the 50 limit but there are some who it hurts, what harm does it do to have that functionality and make everyone happy???? Other might not like the list style guide, but what does it hurt to have it as an option and make everyone happy???

With the TIVO if you didn't like the bells whistles and bleeps you could turn them off. I never found the screens cluttered with information and useless features though.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ffemtreed said:


> Multiple CSR's and Retention reps promised me a free Tivo when it was released in the next couple of months. They even tried to set a shipping date with me. Promised me multiple times it was noted in my account notes and there would be no trouble in getting the new Tivo. I know of others who called and asked about the TIVO's as well and were told "a couple of months". This was all before I started following this site. I now know better!
> 
> Now you can say that you shouldn't believe CSR's and what they tell you but what does that say about the company??? If I were in charge I would be thoroughly embarrassed about having that kind of reputation.


The original official press realease basically said a year and yet you decided to believe a CSR...because they're much more reliable than a press release? :lol:

Mike


----------



## ffemtreed

Mike Bertelson said:


> The original official press realease basically said a year and yet you decided to believe a CSR...because they're much more reliable than a press release? :lol:
> 
> Mike


The information I got from a CSR and Retention was well before any official press release from DTV.

Laugh all you want at me for believing what i was told, its DTV that your really laughing at for giving false information.


----------



## Doug Brott

ffemtreed said:


> Multiple CSR's and Retention reps promised me a free Tivo when it was released in the next couple of months. They even tried to set a shipping date with me. Promised me multiple times it was noted in my account notes and there would be no trouble in getting the new Tivo. I know of others who called and asked about the TIVO's as well and were told "a couple of months". This was all before I started following this site. I now know better!
> 
> Now you can say that you shouldn't believe CSR's and what they tell you but what does that say about the company??? If I were in charge I would be thoroughly embarrassed about having that kind of reputation.


Sorry to hear that you were "promised" something that didn't happen. I've found that CSRs of most any corporation can never be trusted 100% because often they are young and think they know something when in reality they don't have all of the information themselves. This is not unique to DIRECTV. I always take a promise with a grain of salt until it becomes reality and ultimately consider it mis-information rather than an outright lie. It does stink that you were told this, but I doubt it was widespread (meaning most people calling in were being told this).

To have it notated on your account really indicates that you brought up the conversation. Most people who want a "TiVo" really mean that they want a "DVR" so even if they said they wanted a TiVo, the CSR probably punched them in for an HR2x - and the customer was happy. That's just "in general" though, clearly not true in your specific case.

As for being "thoroughly embarrassed" .. Certainly something went wrong in your case, however, I'm sure there continuous training as employees move in and out of the system. I know that it's something DIRECTV strives to improve all of the time. What I can say is that to a person .. everyone that I have met @ DIRECTV from folks on the front line to Engineers to Executives (CES 2008) have always been customer focused. So making the customer happy (all 19 million) is ingrained in the culture. I'm sure of that.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ffemtreed said:


> The information I got from a CSR and Retention was well before any official press release from DTV.
> 
> Laugh all you want at me for believing what i was told, its DTV that your really laughing at for giving false information.


:lol:

We were given the expected time frame and TiVo didn't make it. You make it out like someone lied to us. 

BTW, I think your anger should be directed at TiVo and not DirecTV...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

If you want to be technical, it was a lie. But it was based on forward-looking information and in layman's terms, you can't promise the future. You just can't.


----------



## ffemtreed

Doug Brott said:


> Sorry to hear that you were "promised" something that didn't happen. I've found that CSRs of most any corporation can never be trusted 100% because often they are young and think they know something when in reality they don't have all of the information themselves. This is not unique to DIRECTV. I always take a promise with a grain of salt until it becomes reality and ultimately consider it mis-information rather than an outright lie. It does stink that you were told this, but I doubt it was widespread (meaning most people calling in were being told this).
> 
> To have it notated on your account really indicates that you brought up the conversation. Most people who want a "TiVo" really mean that they want a "DVR" so even if they said they wanted a TiVo, the CSR probably punched them in for an HR2x - and the customer was happy. That's just "in general" though, clearly not true in your specific case.
> 
> As for being "thoroughly embarrassed" .. Certainly something went wrong in your case, however, I'm sure there continuous training as employees move in and out of the system. I know that it's something DIRECTV strives to improve all of the time. What I can say is that to a person .. everyone that I have met @ DIRECTV from folks on the front line to Engineers to Executives (CES 2008) have always been customer focused. So making the customer happy (all 19 million) is ingrained in the culture. I'm sure of that.


Not that it matter much now, but here is how it went down. I wanted all the new channels in HD that were launched. So I called DTV and asked them about it, when they told me I would need a new DVR I said Tivo and they said no that the "new tivo" wasn't ready yet and it would be a 2 -3 months before it was ready. So we just left it at that and said we would wait 2 or 3 month and call back to upgrade.

Well 3 months later we called back to get the new tivo and we were told that they were delayed and it would be another 2 - 3 months before it was released to the public. During the previous 3 months my contract was up so I told the rep to cancel my account because we can get a Tivo and cable card from my local cable company. I can get DTV again when they come out with their tivo. They transferred me to retention who again confirmed the 2 - 3 month window for the "new tivo". They asked me if the promise to give me the new tivo for free when it was released would I give them an extra 2 - 3 months to wait it out! I asked how I would redeem my free tivo and she said its marked in your account notes that all you have to do is call and ask for it. This to me was a great deal because I was expecting to pay 600 or 700 dollars for the box so stayed.

2 -3 month later I called to get my new box and was told it was delayed yet again, but it would be another month. back to retention again and they talked me into a new HR series as a hold over until the tivo was released.

Here we are today!!!!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And here we are today. The most likely outcome is that a new TiVo product is not going to see the light of day for at least 3 more months, potentially much longer. My suggestion to you, if I may be blunt, is to accept this and make your decisions from this point forward keeping in mind that there will be no TiVo product in the very near future.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> If you want to be technical, it was a lie. But it was based on forward-looking information and in layman's terms, you can't promise the future. You just can't.


I'm not exactly sure, but I don't think that's technically correct. Doesn't a lie mean that, one knowing the info is false, and two that the info is presented in order to decieve?

I tend to think it's more incorrect than it is a lie...then again it's moot because right or wrong it's still over due. :grin:



Stuart Sweet said:


> And here we are today. The most likely outcome is that a new TiVo product is not going to see the light of day for at least 3 more months, potentially much longer. My suggestion to you, if I may be blunt, is to accept this and make your decisions from this point forward keeping in mind that there will be no TiVo product in the very near future.


Reality, what a concept. :lol:

Mike


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## bonscott87

I'll be blunt here coming from my help desk experience: If a guy keeps calling about the same thing I'd pretty much say anything to get him off the phone.

Just saying....


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## Doug Brott

Also, the "promise" appears to me (from the description) to be that you will get a free DIRECTV TiVo from DIRECTV when they are released. Thus far that promise hasn't been broken.

Are you 100% sure that the CSR weren't simply speculating when they said 2-3 months. Definitely don't look for it before June or July, and even then it could be delayed (again).


----------



## bobcamp1

cypherx said:


> I don't know why Tivo would want to castrate their product line so bad for DirecTV. With other providers like RCN, Suddenlink, and Virgin Media, they are going no holds bar with the Tivo Premiere technology (and MORE in terms of Virgin Media).
> 
> Do you think they backed themselves into the corner when they chose Flash to write the new UI? Perhaps the reference DirecTivo design CPU can't handle flash?
> 
> Time for DirecTV and Tivo to be PROACTIVE not REACTIVE.


A stand alone S3 Tivo is superior to any HR2x. Those who say differently haven't used one lately. Which makes sense, since this forum isn't exactly crawling with cable customers. But this D* version of Tivo is missing all the features that their stand alone boxes have. Aside from it's possible improved stability over an HR2x, I'm not sure what the point of it is.

The HR2x is too slow for D*'s GUI. Since the new Tivo is an HR22, it'll probably be too slow for Tivo's regular GUI too. Flash is today what Java was last decade -- lots of hype but in reality it's difficult to use in an embedded design. Too much RAM and processing power is required.

People have been saying that Tivo should be proactive for a while now. Whatever that means. It's not gonna happen.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And you know, purely from an economic standpoint, I'd expect the latest TiVo to be superior, because you pay a lot more for it. I've played with a Premiere and you know, it's great and all, I like the HDGUI, I don't like the pervasive ads. There certainly isn't enough to make me switch and pay more.


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## Syzygy

Some of you seem to be arguing about who's to blame for us not already having an MPEG-4 TiVo. If you examine recent history, the answer becomes obvious: DirecTV is clearly the villain.

I became a DirecTV customer in August 2004 because of the HD TiVo. The entrance fee was $1000.

I thought the HR10-250 would be a long-term investment. Then, just a year after I started using it, DirecTV announced it was dropping TiVo as its supplier for HD DVRs in favor of a home-made product which would allow DirecTV to capture all the revenue from DVR rentals. Two and a half years later, we DirecTV subscribers were informed we would need to upgrade to its inferior quasi-TiVo if we wanted full HD service. Divorcing TiVo and foisting on us a cheapo TiVo substitute was like a thumb in the eye to customers who, like me, came on board because of the HD TiVo.

Without the divorce from TiVo in 2005, DirecTV would have had a full-featured MPEG-4 HD TiVo for a long time now.


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Without the divorce from TiVo in 2005, DirecTV would have had a full-featured MPEG-4 HD TiVo for a long time now.


You are correct, but when TiVo changes the rules in the 12th hour .. Well, you see the results. At the end of the day, DIRECTV has an MPEG-4 DVR .. They are happy. DIRECTV does NOT have a *TiVo* MPEG-4 DVR .. TiVo wasn't happy and (at the time) many customers weren't happy. Time marches on and TiVo finally finds a way back in .. Then falters in the execution.

You may want to lay blame on DIRECTV for this, but when negotiations sour .. and in a bad way .. trust is hard to win back.


----------



## bonscott87

Syzygy said:


> Some of you seem to be arguing about who's to blame for us not already having an MPEG-4 TiVo. If you examine recent history, the answer becomes obvious: DirecTV is clearly the villain.
> 
> I became a DirecTV customer in August 2004 because of the HD TiVo. The entrance fee was $1000.
> 
> I thought the HR10-250 would be a long-term investment. Then, just a year after I started using it, DirecTV announced it was dropping TiVo as its supplier for HD DVRs in favor of a home-made product <snip>


But DirecTV announced earlier in 2004 they were moving to MPEG4 for HD which the HR10-250 *didn't* support and thus was a short term product at best. I knew that and thus never spent $1000 on an HR10-250. You made the choice to make the investment despite the fact it was a short term product, don't blame DirecTV for that.

And yes, they did drop Tivo...but who didn't in that timeframe. *EVERY* provider went their own way and developed their own DVR instead of paying Tivo licensing fees. If DirecTV didn't they would have been the outlier. *At the time* it was a good business decision because it was the way the whole industry went. And now look at them....DirecTV has a very strong DVR line sans Tivo, agreements with Tivo that prevent them from being sued, and nearly 10 million people use *their* DVR...about a quarter of the entire DVR market. Tivo...less then 5% of the whole market and shrinking every day.

While it may not have been good for you personally and a small band of Tivo'ites, in retrospect it was a great move by DirecTV to go their own way. Nobody can deny this. And if the DirecTV DVR was really a bad product people would have revolted in droves for the past couple years now as their commitments expired. Hasn't happened and uptake on the DVR keeps growing.

Oh well.


----------



## Shades228

bdcottle said:


> I'm sorry but I think you guys are grossly overestimating the importance of WHDVR / MRV and I'll give you three reasons why.
> 
> 1. My home only has one TV and I know plenty of other people who only have one TV in their home. Not everyone has a need for 7 DVR's in their home. To me it's a total waste of resources. In this situation it's like a car dealer trying to sell a high end stereo to a deaf person.
> 
> 2. A lot of people like to keep their DVR programs separate, as in one DVR for the kids programs, one for family programs and one for adult programs in the bedroom. In this situation you don't want DVR's to share programs.
> 
> 3. Most people aren't tech savvy enough to use WHDVR / MRV. We are very advanced here at DBSTalk but the average user wouldn't be able to figure out how to use it if they knew it was there. I tried to explain it to my brother in law (who has a HR20) but he looked at me like I was trying to explain string theory.
> 
> So if the DirecTIVO is missing WHDVR / MRV I don't think it would be a deal breaker for most people.


I can assure you that you are very far off on this aspect. WHDVR drove the equipment shortage and the take rate was so high that they had to increase the cost $100 to make it not as attractive. I think you would be surprised at the take rate still on MRV.

Homes with only 1 TV are in the minority now so products and marketing will be based around the entire home.


----------



## ffemtreed

Stuart Sweet said:


> And here we are today. The most likely outcome is that a new TiVo product is not going to see the light of day for at least 3 more months, potentially much longer. My suggestion to you, if I may be blunt, is to accept this and make your decisions from this point forward keeping in mind that there will be no TiVo product in the very near future.


This is all i the past. Its been at least a year and 1/2 since I last talked to DTV about the Tivo. I have accepted the fact that it is pretty much vaporware. With the advancement of the HR series I like them and probably won't trade it in for a tivo unless it has some of the other features that the HR can't do like TIVO2Go.

I have learned to live with the 50 season pass limit by keeping an excel spreadsheet and updating my pass list every couple of months.

The only thing that really still annoys the heck out of me is the slow guide.

Someone else mentioned it as well, I paid hundreds upon hundreds of dollars for the HR10-250 only to have DTV come out a year later and say it doesn't support the new HD channels. That did leave a bitter taste in my mouth. DTV kinda made up for that by giving me a free HR21 when I finally gave up on the tivo.


----------



## ffemtreed

bonscott87 said:


> But DirecTV announced earlier in 2004 they were moving to MPEG4 for HD which the HR10-250 *didn't* support and thus was a short term product at best. I knew that and thus never spent $1000 on an HR10-250. You made the choice to make the investment despite the fact it was a short term product, don't blame DirecTV for that.
> 
> And yes, they did drop Tivo...but who didn't in that timeframe. *EVERY* provider went their own way and developed their own DVR instead of paying Tivo licensing fees. If DirecTV didn't they would have been the outlier. *At the time* it was a good business decision because it was the way the whole industry went. And now look at them....DirecTV has a very strong DVR line sans Tivo, agreements with Tivo that prevent them from being sued, and nearly 10 million people use *their* DVR...about a quarter of the entire DVR market. Tivo...less then 5% of the whole market and shrinking every day.
> 
> While it may not have been good for you personally and a small band of Tivo'ites, in retrospect it was a great move by DirecTV to go their own way. Nobody can deny this. And if the DirecTV DVR was really a bad product people would have revolted in droves for the past couple years now as their commitments expired. Hasn't happened and uptake on the DVR keeps growing.
> 
> Oh well.


The only problem with that statement is that 99% of consumers aren't out there checking everyday what DTV is doing and not doing. 95% of customers don't know what mpg2 and mpg4 or any of that mean. You argument is only valid if DTV had warnings during the time of purchase telling consumers that this product won't be supported in a year or two.

you can't assume consumers read this board and know most of the in's and out's of DTV operation and you certainly can't berate them for not knowing.


----------



## ffemtreed

bonscott87 said:


> I'll be blunt here coming from my help desk experience: If a guy keeps calling about the same thing I'd pretty much say anything to get him off the phone.
> 
> Just saying....


So you think it was unreasonable to call back and ask after the time they told me to wait passes???? its not like I called every week or month.

PS -- Part of my job responsibilities is supervising a helpdesk staff and if anyone of my techs had the attitude to just say anything to get someone off the phone they would be looking for a new job ASAP. I demand good honest customer service from all of my techs and they know it. Sure they might joke about a specific caller and have the infamous frequent caller, but while on the phone they will do their best to help the customer as best they can.


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## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> You are correct, but when TiVo changes the rules in the 12th hour .. Well, you see the results...


What do you mean? I'm not aware that TiVo changed the rules before D* gave them the boot. Please explain.


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## SledgeHammer

As much as I dislike DirecTV, how are they really to blame here? They told Tivo to go ahead and make a box in 2008. Tivo has thus far been too incompetent to deliver. I'd put the blame on Tivo Mgmt. If you have ever worked in a tech company in R&D (I have and still do), you would know that the people who actually build the product have little to no input on anything. All the specs / schedules / budgets / features, etc. come from mgmt and often for political reasons. The engineers are simply told "here are some specs, now go code, monkey boy" . Pretty much the only difference between a Jr. R&D engineer and a Sr. R&D engineer is the $$$. The Sr. guy doesn't have any more authority. Even the team lead is generally a liason between the lower guys and mgmt and has no real power.


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## tonyd79

bobcamp1 said:


> A stand alone S3 Tivo is superior to any HR2x. Those who say differently haven't used one lately.


I had an HD Tivo for Comcast until March 2010. I prefer my HR20s and HR21. I had more recording issues with my Tivo and the few programs I recorded on it than I did with my HRs which recorded a ton of material. I had trickplay issues on both. I gave up on the Netflix implementation (used a Roku, much better). I had no On Demand on my Tivo yet I did on my HRs. It took more button pushes to achieve what I wanted to acheive on my Tivo than it does on my HRs (not true when the HR20 first came out, but true today).

Oh, and my HD Tivo cost me more per month.

When I dropped Comcast and went to Fios for local cable, internet and telephone, I gave away my Tivo and went with the Fios DVR. I wanted what I was paying for (the On Demand) and the Fios DVR was good enough for the minimal amount I record off Fios (and did off Comcast); the Comcast DVR was pitiful.

Your statement is opinion masquerading as fact.


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## tonyd79

ffemtreed said:


> The only problem with that statement is that 99% of consumers aren't out there checking everyday what DTV is doing and not doing. 95% of customers don't know what mpg2 and mpg4 or any of that mean. You argument is only valid if DTV had warnings during the time of purchase telling consumers that this product won't be supported in a year or two.
> 
> you can't assume consumers read this board and know most of the in's and out's of DTV operation and you certainly can't berate them for not knowing.


And 99% of the customers think any old DVR is a Tivo. Your point?


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## ffemtreed

tonyd79 said:


> And 99% of the customers think any old DVR is a Tivo. Your point?


That is exactly my point. Most customers don't know.


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## Richierich

tonyd79 said:


> And 99% of the customers think any old DVR is a Tivo. Your point?


That's right as I have 7 TiVos which are 3 HR24-500s and 4 HR23-700s!!!


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## Shades228

ffemtreed said:


> That is exactly my point. Most customers don't know.


Most don't care either which is why TiVo is a dying brand that will be taken over for it's IP rather than anything else. I hope your TiVo eventually comes and I hope that it's good for you. However I think this may end up being a nostalgia thing for most people if anything.


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## ffemtreed

Shades228 said:


> Most don't care either which is why TiVo is a dying brand that will be taken over for it's IP rather than anything else. I hope your TiVo eventually comes and I hope that it's good for you. However I think this may end up being a nostalgia thing for most people if anything.


2 years ago I would have gave a lot for "my tivo" to come. But now I am fairly happy with my HR. I really want to see the new Tivo details before I make a decision on whether I still want it or not. I have a chart put together with the pro's and con's. Once I fill that in I'll see what happens. If I had to guess right now I will be staying with the HR series.

If the two systems worked seamlessly together it would be a no brainer to get it but I highly doubt that is the case.


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## Doug Brott

richierich said:


> That's right as I have 7 TiVos, 3 HR24-500s and 4 HR23-700s!!!


I know you know better .. :lol:


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> I know you know better .. :lol:


I meant I have 7 Directv DVRs which most people would think is "I Have 7 TiVos" but I love my HR2Xs and they do what I want with a couple of exceptions so I am a Happy Camper that I am with Directv.


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## bonscott87

ffemtreed said:


> The only problem with that statement is that 99% of consumers aren't out there checking everyday what DTV is doing and not doing. 95% of customers don't know what mpg2 and mpg4 or any of that mean. You argument is only valid if DTV had warnings during the time of purchase telling consumers that this product won't be supported in a year or two.
> 
> you can't assume consumers read this board and know most of the in's and out's of DTV operation and you certainly can't berate them for not knowing.


What you say is true. However a couple things about that:

1) Most people that got the HR10-250 were cutting edge early adopters and thus as a whole more educated in tech and bleeding edge then Joe Sixpack. I mean, who spends $1000 to get 5 HD channels? That's what Joe Sixpack would say. I paid $800 to get 1 and a half HD channels a few years before that though. 

2) I know if I'm about to spend $1000 I do a *ton* of research. $1000 is a lot of money to me and I make sure I do a complete vetting of the product before I plop down that kind of money. So in mid 2004 I knew with very little research that the HR10-250 was a short lived product since DirecTV had announced months earlier at CES (and many press releases) their plans to put HD on the Spaceway sats at 99 and 103 *and* in MPEG4. And since the HR10-250 could neither decode MPEG4 nor even see sat slots 99 and 103 it was a no brainier for me to not spend $1000 on it. I waited until their MPEG4 HD DVR came out which was the HR20 and I had one for a cool $400 in the first week. Now I'm sorry if you and/or others didn't do the research to know this. Or you did and felt $1000 was worth it for getting an HD DVR now vs. waiting for the new technology. Your choice either way.

Anyway, it's all water under the bridge over half a decade ago. We are where we are today. Heck, I don't even have DirecTV anymore so what do I care either way. :lol:


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## bonscott87

ffemtreed said:


> So you think it was unreasonable to call back and ask after the time they told me to wait passes???? its not like I called every week or month.


Got it. I took it that you were one of those that called literally every week asking for the same thing. If it were at some point the CSR is just going to say "yes sir, it's coming soon" just to get you off the phone. And I was making a joke.  Sounds like you just called a couple times, no problem. However, I would still *never* ever trust *anything* a CSR says about future products and releases. They just don't know. You might as well ask farmer Joe down the street, he knows just as much. Online forums like this are the only true source of info like this.


----------



## ffemtreed

bonscott87 said:


> What you say is true. However a couple things about that:
> 
> 1) Most people that got the HR10-250 were cutting edge early adopters and thus as a whole more educated in tech and bleeding edge then Joe Sixpack. I mean, who spends $1000 to get 5 HD channels? That's what Joe Sixpack would say. I paid $800 to get 1 and a half HD channels a few years before that though.
> 
> 2) I know if I'm about to spend $1000 I do a *ton* of research. $1000 is a lot of money to me and I make sure I do a complete vetting of the product before I plop down that kind of money. So in mid 2004 I knew with very little research that the HR10-250 was a short lived product since DirecTV had announced months earlier at CES (and many press releases) their plans to put HD on the Spaceway sats at 99 and 103 *and* in MPEG4. And since the HR10-250 could neither decode MPEG4 nor even see sat slots 99 and 103 it was a no brainier for me to not spend $1000 on it. I waited until their MPEG4 HD DVR came out which was the HR20 and I had one for a cool $400 in the first week. Now I'm sorry if you and/or others didn't do the research to know this. Or you did and felt $1000 was worth it for getting an HD DVR now vs. waiting for the new technology. Your choice either way.
> 
> Anyway, it's all water under the bridge over half a decade ago. We are where we are today. Heck, I don't even have DirecTV anymore so what do I care either way. :lol:


I got my HR10-250 as an impluse buy at circuit city when I bought my first HD TV. I think I paid 500 or 600 dollars for it. I had DTV and said I might as well put the HD box on my credit card with 0% for 24 months.


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## hdtvfan0001

ffemtreed said:


> I got my HR10-250 as an impluse buy at circuit city when I bought my first HD TV. I think I paid 500 or 600 dollars for it. I had DTV and said I might as well put the HD box on my credit card with 0% for 24 months.


So here we are in 2011....both Circuit City and the HR10-250 are obsolete and part of ancient history.


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## Stuart Sweet

Very true. Although Circuit City still exists as a web site operated by the same people who bought the CompUSA and TigerDirect names, and the HR10 will live on in a new incarnation as the (I'm guessing on the name) THR22.


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## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Very true. Although Circuit City still exists as a web site operated by the same people who bought the CompUSA and TigerDirect names, and the HR10 will live on in a new incarnation as the (I'm guessing on the name) THR22.


Also true.

Perhaps the new Tivobox should be called MORPH then?


----------



## Athenian

richierich said:


> Well, I like WHDVR Service and I don't think it fits into the Category of a Gadget and it is Very Practical and Functional and Useful so I can Finish Watching A Show or Game as I did last night when I Paused the FSU Football Game and finished watching it upstairs in my Bedroom.
> 
> If the New DIRECTIVO can't integrate with the WHDVR Service then I won't even give it a glance and I was a TIVOTEE or TIVOHOLIC but at this point in time Directv's DVRs have caused me to Forget about the TiVo Thingy.


Multi-Room Viewing was the top requested for the DirecTV for years. We switched to U-Verse 3 months ago primarily for the single DVR but the guide is so inaccurate, we have to check the newspaper everyday to be sure we are going to get what we want. If the new DirecTV Tivo box doesn't include some sort of Multi-Room Viewing capability, there's really no point in ever releasing it.


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## Syzygy

Athenian said:


> ... If the new DirecTV Tivo box doesn't include some sort of Multi-Room Viewing capability, there's really no point in ever releasing it.


+1. I've already posted that I won't want the new TiVo unless it has MRV or at least box-to-box copying. I also need it to be faster than an HR22 is.

However, there is *some* point to releasing it, even if it doesn't have MRV, and even if it's slow: There's that "low-lying fruit" that TiVo's CEO has referred to, which consists of DirecTV customers with no HD service who are still using old SD DirecTiVos. They know nothing of MRV, and the THR22 might be fast enough for them.

I'll be waiting until TiVo makes a product that can compete on an equal footing with the HR24.


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## markman07

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> So here we are in 2010....both Circuit City and the HR10-250 are obsolete and part of ancient history.


Actually my calendar says 2011! :-D


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## smiddy

I like DirecTV...I wonder if the DirecTiVo will be worth switching sides?


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## hdtvfan0001

markman07 said:


> Actually my calendar says 2011! :-D


Good catch - fixed the typo. The point remains the same.


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## Syzygy

smiddy said:


> I like DirecTV...I wonder if the DirecTiVo will be worth switching sides?


I don't think you'd be switching sides... If you switch from HR2x's to TiVo-HR22's, in all likelihood you'll still be giving DirecTV more than 95% of your monthly TV budget.


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## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I like DirecTV...I wonder if the DirecTiVo will be worth switching sides?


With a face like ours (avatar)....that seems unlikely... 

DirecTV (Flag)

Fan (Do stick your fingers in that...)

Boy (Symbol)


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## ATARI

Looks like Duke Nukem' Forever will beat the new DirecTiVo to market.

And that's saying somethin'.


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## Mike Bertelson

ATARI said:


> Looks like Duke Nukem' Forever will beat the new DirecTiVo to market.
> 
> And that's saying somethin'.


Holy Cow. I never thought we'd see it released..."Come Get Some!". :lol:

Well if Duke Nukem' Forever can make it to market than so can the new DirecTiVo. 

Mike


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## wingrider01

ATARI said:


> Looks like Duke Nukem' Forever will beat the new DirecTiVo to market.
> 
> And that's saying somethin'.


yes it is - have been on my must have list for years, and I agree it will be out first - and more popular:lol:


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## cypherx

Tivo just signed a deal with Charter. It also sounds like it will be better than DirecTivo. Details here:
http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1518977&highlight=



> The following features are planned for the initial product:
> 
> -TiVo's high-definition user interface including integrated search: Instantly scans across all channels and sources, including TV, VOD, and available online content, to help find what customers want to watch
> 
> -Web applications: Allows customers to access local news, sports and weather, as well as Facebook and Twitter(TM) updates, right from the TV
> 
> -OnDemand: Offers access to thousands of hours of video from Charter's OnDemand library, including 900+ high-definition titles
> 
> -Online: Internet video from top destinations
> 
> -iPad app: Serves as command central, with an ability to browse the program guide and recorded shows, schedule recordings, post on Facebook or Twitter, schedule, search and browse for shows from anywhere, and much more
> 
> -Control live TV: Allows pause, rewind, slow-motion, and instant replay functions during live TV
> 
> -Multiroom DVR: View a common list of recordings and playback recorded content throughout the home, pause a recorded program in one room and resume playback in another, use trick-play functions on recorded content and delete recordings from any room*
> 
> -Remote Management: Search and schedule recordings from the Web or from a mobile phone
> 
> -TiVoToGo(TM) transfers: Transfer photos and movies from a personal computer to the TiVo Premiere, for viewing on the TV set; or from the TiVo Premiere to a laptop, media device, or smart phone, for viewing outside the home*
> 
> -Automatic recordings: Records favorite shows each week with Season Pass(R) recordings on the TiVo Premiere. In addition, WishList(R) searches will find and record suggested programs based on customer interests
> 
> -Content storage: Records up to 45 hours of high-definition (HD) programming or up to 400 hours of standard-definition programming -- equivalent to more than 16 days of content
> 
> -Full HD support: Offers full support for 1080p and 1080i HD formats


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That's right, I don't expect most of those features for the DIRECTV box. Of course, Charter's box may not be out until the fall of '16 :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

cypherx said:


> Tivo just signed a deal with Charter. It also sounds like it will be better than DirecTivo. Details here:
> http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=106292&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1518977&highlight=


From the article:


> The initial phase, which is expected to launch in Charter markets later this year, will utilize TiVo's latest generation high definition user interface and TiVo(R) Premiere set top box, as well as upcoming multi-room and non-DVR platforms.


Looks like they are using an existing platform (released last year) and a new platform. I wonder what "initial phase" means (2 people have access to it? :scratchin) .. I also wonder if TiVo will finally make one of their own pre-set deadlines. It certainly seems that they are finally setting themselves up for success with this announcement, but only time will tell. A betting person would still probably bet against them getting this done by 12/31/11.


----------



## cypherx

Well they already have successful Premiere with IP VOD stack deployed with RCN and Suddenlink. I think the Charter announcement will be the same thing, except they will take it one step further and integrate MRV in the product.

Now if only they took a real Premiere and just replaced the QAM tuner with a DirecTV compatible DECA/SWM tuner appropriate drivers and Access card slot (in place of the cable card slot). Why reinvent the whole box when it's just the tuning interface?


----------



## Doug Brott

cypherx said:


> Well they already have successful Premiere with IP VOD stack deployed with RCN and Suddenlink. I think the Charter announcement will be the same thing, except they will take it one step further and integrate MRV in the product.
> 
> Now if only they took a real Premiere and just replaced the QAM tuner with a DirecTV compatible DECA/SWM tuner appropriate drivers and Access card slot (in place of the cable card slot). Why reinvent the whole box when it's just the tuning interface?


MPEG-4? Signal decryption? other?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Cypherx, I think we'd all like to know what they've been doing for the last two years or so since the announcement. It doesn't make sense, unless they are underfunded and understaffed.


----------



## JBernardK

Has anyone considered that just as past statements about the release date have been false, then perhaps past statements about features (i.e. old UI) may turn out to be false? 

It seems that the "regulars" on this forum love to repeat over and over the same tired, negative statements.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

JBernardK said:


> Has anyone considered that just as past statements about the release date have been false, then perhaps past statements about features (i.e. old UI) may turn out to be false?


Sure...

Then we all read the public information on the public target dates and publically saw them publically miss those dates more than once.

That turns it into a public delayed project by going on 2 years.

Simple actually...


----------



## sigma1914

JBernardK said:


> Has anyone considered that just as past statements about the release date have been false, then perhaps past statements about features (i.e. old UI) may turn out to be false?
> 
> It seems that the "regulars" on this forum love to repeat over and over the same tired, negative statements.


Has anyone considered that maybe those "regulars" know a bit more and have been given a bit more info from reliable sources? The old UI is being used, period.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sigma1914 said:


> Has anyone considered that maybe those "regulars" know a bit more and have been given a bit more info from reliable sources? The old UI is being used, period.


Could be...since some of us, uh them, heard the shell game of dates directly from TiVo staff at CES 2 years in a row firsthand face-to-face. Then again...not sure if that would be considered a reliable source.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

JBernardK said:


> Has anyone considered that just as past statements about the release date have been false, then perhaps past statements about features (i.e. old UI) may turn out to be false?
> 
> It seems that the "regulars" on this forum love to repeat over and over the same tired, negative statements.


Maybe... heck, you know I'd love to be proven wrong and find out that the new TiVo device really is all that and a bag of chips. (That's right, I said Heck!)

But my suspicion is that it will be a bag of something else altogether.


----------



## tonyd79

cypherx said:


> Well they already have successful Premiere with IP VOD stack deployed with RCN and Suddenlink. I think the Charter announcement will be the same thing, except they will take it one step further and integrate MRV in the product.
> 
> Now if only they took a real Premiere and just replaced the QAM tuner with a DirecTV compatible DECA/SWM tuner appropriate drivers and Access card slot (in place of the cable card slot). Why reinvent the whole box when it's just the tuning interface?


You want them to decode the encrypted MPEG4 and MPEG2 from the satellite to another format on the fly, store it on the box and use that? I don't think that would work very well. The technique for digital (at least satellite) is to store the data raw and decode it only when playing back either in a live buffer or from a precorded program.


----------



## CuriousMark

cypherx said:


> Well they already have successful Premiere with IP VOD stack deployed with RCN and Suddenlink. I think the Charter announcement will be the same thing, except they will take it one step further and integrate MRV in the product.


They have been working on the MRV, and standard cable box part with suddenlink for well over six months now.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> MPEG-4? Signal decryption? other?


It does MPEG-4
It does streaming signal decryption from Netflix
It has a cypher chip onboard.


----------



## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> Has anyone considered that just as past statements about the release date have been false, then perhaps past statements about features (i.e. old UI) may turn out to be false?
> 
> It seems that the "regulars" on this forum love to repeat over and over the same tired, negative statements.


It's the old UI .. If you expect anything else, you will be disappointed.


----------



## Sixto

The point that's been a interesting mystery to me is that if there really was a staffing/dedication issue, then what was the $10M+ billing being used for. It was a consistent $2.5M-$3.0M per quarter last I looked.

If there was a lull in development, I would have expected the development billing to be lower, and expecting that the billing must be accurate since it's in an SEC filing.

Throughout the development, the $ have been fairly significant and grew somewhat, unless $2.5-$3M per quarter isn't enough.

Hmmm.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> It does MPEG-4
> It does streaming signal decryption from Netflix
> It has a cypher chip onboard.


Heck, maybe they should have, but considering the Premiere just premiered last year and the DIRECTV TiVo was initially supposed to have been done even before last year, they may have simply thought that differently at the time everything was decided.

It's easy to look back now and say they should have done things differently because clearly the path they took hasn't worked out as well as they'd hoped.


----------



## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> Cypherx, I think we'd all like to know what they've been doing for the last two years or so since the announcement. It doesn't make sense, unless they are underfunded and understaffed.


They were. The first thing Tom Rogers did when hired was try to make the company profitable by reducing development, marketing, and overhead expenses. He then went out and tried to make deals, Hollywood style. Once he got the first chunk of change from Dish, the hiring started back up. They also changed director of engineering a little after the Premiere came out.

Connect those dots as you see fit. To me, the cutbacks means lost talent that is hard to recover from quickly.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> Heck, maybe they should have, but considering the Premiere just premiered last year and the DIRECTV TiVo was initially supposed to have been done even before last year, they may have simply thought that differently at the time everything was decided.
> 
> It's easy to look back now and say they should have done things differently because clearly the path they took hasn't worked out as well as they'd hoped.


Wow, something I can agree with.

Yes, if they had it do over, I am sure they would have used more modern hardware, but they are where they are.

There are quotes from TiVo insiders saying that old user interface, and the dependencies it imposed on adding features, was a real problem for them.


----------



## Athenian

JBernardK said:


> Has anyone considered that just as past statements about the release date have been false, then perhaps past statements about features (i.e. old UI) may turn out to be false?


AFAIK, all the false statements made about the release date were made by Tivo and DirecTV officials and made on the record.

Given that history, it's not suprising that none of them will make an official statement about the feature set. At this point, neither side has much credibility with me. I will believe it when I see it.

Then again, if it is not available for installation by 4 April, *I* will never see it because my only choice will be to go with whatever DirecTV (or a competitor) can deliver on that date.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Athenian, I suspect you won't be looking at a DIRECTV/Tivo product on 4 April.


----------



## cypherx

Well I just think they should of modularized the Premiere platform, just knowing that maybe they would want to interface it with DBS, IPTV, or Cable providers. If they had a standardized bus interface and API written, they could just interchange tuners/security modules as deemed nessesary, and use the appropriate drivers / MSO builds to get it working.

Think of a PC. You have a PCI-e slot. You could drop in an analog TV tuner. A Ceton Cable Card QAM tuner, or a DVB-S2 DBS tuner/analyzer. A PC is a versatile platform. You just need the software/drivers to run the hardware. They knew the premiere was coming out. They should of thought ahead when they developed it. They could of said "These 62 pins interface with the security module and tuning assembly. Here is the API for this interface and a baseline firmware version for interfacing with a QAM/CableCard module". Then build it up from there.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yep, that's what I would have done too. Or perhaps done the equivalent in software, since the chips that underlie these DVRs have a lot of that stuff built-in.


----------



## big daddy kool

Be due to Directv possibly making TIVO brick certain features that would be better than what Directv offers on it's DVRs?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That's extraordinarily unlikely. I know for a fact that DIRECTV's principal concern is that box not be hackable. I'm sure they would be fine if the box outperformed their in-house efforts; then they could justify charging more for it.


----------



## CuriousMark

big daddy kool said:


> Be due to Directv possibly making TIVO brick certain features that would be better than what Directv offers on it's DVRs?


Maybe, but I would think it is more likely they would do so for features that operate differently than their own, rather than better. DirecTV has to provide support for both and my guess is they would not want to support a feature that requires completely different support if they don't have to.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> MPEG-4?


I'm betting that MPEG4 decoding has been part of the chipsets for a while now. I'm doubtful that IPTV could be supported without it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It being in the chipsets does not automatically mean the TiVo software knows how to decode it, especially considering DIRECTV's rather unique take on encrypted MPEG-4.


----------



## matthew999

Too bad the HR24 doesn't have a suggestion feature like the TiVo.
That feature was nice and it kept the box busy recording.
I don't suppose that would ever be implemented on the HRs.


----------



## Doug Brott

matthew999 said:


> Too bad the HR24 doesn't have a suggestion feature like the TiVo.
> That feature was nice and it kept the box busy recording.
> I don't suppose that would ever be implemented on the HRs.


No, and from the posts around here, that seemed to the feature most requested to be disabled.

Although, there is "you might like ..." which allows you to search for similar programs. It does not automatically record them in the background, though.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> No, and from the posts around here, that seemed to the feature most requested to be disabled.
> 
> Although, there is "you might like ..." which allows you to search for similar programs. It does not automatically record them in the background, though.


That's the first think I shut off on my HDVR2s. It would fill up the hard drive in a day or so. It was a real pain in the neck.

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Bertelson said:


> That's the first think I shut off on my HDVR2s. It would fill up the hard drive in a day or so. It was a real pain in the neck.
> 
> Mike


Many of us are more than capable and qualified to find all the crappy programing we want on our own - without some goofy machine doing it for us. :lol:


----------



## tonyd79

cypherx said:


> Well I just think they should of modularized the Premiere platform, just knowing that maybe they would want to interface it with DBS, IPTV, or Cable providers. If they had a standardized bus interface and API written, they could just interchange tuners/security modules as deemed nessesary, and use the appropriate drivers / MSO builds to get it working.
> 
> Think of a PC. You have a PCI-e slot. You could drop in an analog TV tuner. A Ceton Cable Card QAM tuner, or a DVB-S2 DBS tuner/analyzer. A PC is a versatile platform. You just need the software/drivers to run the hardware. They knew the premiere was coming out. They should of thought ahead when they developed it. They could of said "These 62 pins interface with the security module and tuning assembly. Here is the API for this interface and a baseline firmware version for interfacing with a QAM/CableCard module". Then build it up from there.


Still would rely on something you could drop into that bus structure. Remember, we are talking DirecTV encryption and design. If they don't have a module that Tivo could use, then no matter how modular Tivo made their product, they would still have to get DirecTV to play along, which they may not be interested in doing because it would force redesign on their part.

PCs and DVRs are different critters. A PC is a mult-use device that can be made into a media center. A DVR is a targetted appliance that is tuned for cost/performance. Though some of the same principles can be applied.


----------



## tonyd79

Mike Bertelson said:


> That's the first think I shut off on my HDVR2s. It would fill up the hard drive in a day or so. It was a real pain in the neck.
> 
> Mike


Funny, the thing that drove me crazy about it was that there would always be a recording light on and I would wonder what was recording because I wasn't expecting anything to be. I hated auto-recording suggestions. I kept trying to use them and kept turning them off because they cluttered up my playlist with crap and that damned light.


----------



## bonscott87

JBernardK said:


> Has anyone considered that just as past statements about the release date have been false, then perhaps past statements about features (i.e. old UI) may turn out to be false?
> 
> It seems that the "regulars" on this forum love to repeat over and over the same tired, negative statements.


Well, the Tivo CEO himself stated just a few months ago in an interview (which is on the web by the way) that the new DirecTivo would be using the older "classic" Tivo UI. So I guess he could be making "false" statements that the "regulars" are just repeating. But hey, maybe the CEO doesn't know what he's talking about. Wouldn't be the first time. LOL

As for being "negative", sounds like many that are waiting for the DirecTivo are just fine with it being the classic UI, thus that would qualify as a "positive" in my book.


----------



## Richierich

bonscott87 said:


> Well, the Tivo CEO himself stated just a few months ago in an interview (which is on the web by the way) that the new DirecTivo would be using the older "classic" Tivo UI. So I guess he could be making "false" statements that the "regulars" are just repeating. But hey, maybe the CEO doesn't know what he's talking about. Wouldn't be the first time. LOL
> 
> As for being "negative", sounds like many that are waiting for the DirecTivo are just fine with it being the classic UI, thus that would qualify as a "positive" in my book.


Excellent Post.


----------



## wingrider01

Just saw this - interesting

http://www.winsupersite.com/article...o-Stop-TiVo-from-Importing-Devices-to-US.aspx


----------



## hdtvfan0001

wingrider01 said:


> Just saw this - interesting
> 
> http://www.winsupersite.com/article...o-Stop-TiVo-from-Importing-Devices-to-US.aspx


That is an interesting development indeed...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, I don't know if Microsoft has a leg to stand on there but it's just another drain on TiVo's resources.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well, I don't know if Microsoft has a leg to stand on there but it's just another drain on TiVo's resources.


Almost makes one wonder...between these kinds of things, the long and ugly Dish legal fights, and other past issues....maybe *the legal department *at TiVo has the largest staff.  :shrug:


----------



## CuriousMark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Almost makes one wonder...between these kinds of things, the long and ugly Dish legal fights, and other past issues....maybe *the legal department *at TiVo has the largest staff.  :shrug:


Yup, I wonder the same thing. The CEO is a lawyer after all.


----------



## bobcamp1

wingrider01 said:


> Just saw this - interesting
> 
> http://www.winsupersite.com/article...o-Stop-TiVo-from-Importing-Devices-to-US.aspx


Don't the D* DVRs do all those things? And where are they made?


----------



## CuriousMark

bobcamp1 said:


> Don't the D* DVRs do all those things? And where are they made?


Most likely yes.

MS is in negotiation with TiVo. My guess is they felt they had a weak bargaining position and trotted this action out to bolster it. See Dave Zatz take on it.


----------



## tonyd79

I love how a grid guide, which has been used in newspapers and magazines since TV was invented is somehow patentable.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Hey, they can try whatever they want... it may not hold up in court, but they can try.


----------



## ATARI

TiVo sued AT&T first, and now Microsoft is suing to protect AT&T (for which it developed the software).


----------



## Syzygy

gregjones said:


> There is a clear delineation. If you feel you have a product that is groundbreaking or game-changing, you show it early and often (HR34, Dish 922). When you fix bugs or run late, you keep it low-key. This Tivo is not breaking new ground, in essence.
> 
> • It is very similar in functionality to the HR10-250 (old tech)
> • but adds MPEG4 (old tech)
> • on some form of HR2x hardware (old tech).
> 
> They shine the spotlight on this product and the story won't be "Tivo changes everything." It would be "Tivo takes years longer to accomplish nothing new."


Very well put, Greg!

It would make anyone wonder (as I did for a moment) why anyone would care about the possibility of this underwhelming, warmed-over technology getting released.

But it took me just a moment to remember why people care: *The HR2x software/UI is a certifiable piece of crap!* In all respects save MRV and a few nice little details (like one-touch recording and bookmarks) that TiVo will probably, and unfortunately, avoid replicating.


----------



## Richierich

I think alot of us forget that we are Technogeeks and alot different than the vast majority of Directv Customers who just want to watch and record TV without getting too technical about how they do it.

Their Directv DVR and Remote work just fine (in most cases ) so they can watch and record what they want and some even think they Have a TiVo but in the end can they do what they want and that is to watch TV.


----------



## bidger

Syzygy said:


> *The HR2x software/UI is a certifiable piece of crap!*


 That assertion loses all it's supposed impact when one sees not one, but two HR24s just below it in your sig.


----------



## Doug Brott

bidger said:


> That assertion loses all it's supposed impact when one sees not one, but two HR24s just below it in your sig.


He's warming up to them .. :grin:


----------



## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> He's warming up to them .. :grin:


Right. The HR24 UI is still irritating in a hundred little ways, and I never lose sight of the fact that TiVo always did those things much better. But I won't give up my MRV, one-touch recording, bookmarks, (R) icons on scheduled-to-record programs in lists and in the Guide, triple-tap text entry -- just to get a THR22 with an old-fashioned but undoubtedly user-friendly UI.


----------



## Richierich

I really can't wait until this Directivo Emerges from the Shadows so once and for all the debate can end about this device and whether it will be Great or a POS!!! :lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

richierich said:


> I really can't wait until this Directivo Emerges from the Shadows so once and for all the debate can end about this device and whether it will be Great or a POS!!! :lol:


The Shadow has the DirecTiVo? :eek2:

:lol:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> Right. The HR24 UI is still irritating in *a hundred little ways*, and I never lose sight of the fact that *TiVo always did those things much better*.


Interesting perspectives...

Bet there are plenty of folks with the totally opposite perspective too...


----------



## Richierich

Mike Bertelson said:


> The Shadow has the DirecTiVo? :eek2:
> 
> :lol:
> 
> Mike


SSSHHHH!!! As only The Shadow Truly Knows!!! :lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

richierich said:


> SSSHHHH!!! As only The Shadow Truly Knows!!! :lol:


Hey, remember that guy we used to have around here...what was his name? Oh, Yeah. Lamont Cranston. I wonder if Lamont Knows anything. :lol:

Mike


----------



## Syzygy

bidger said:


> That assertion loses all it's supposed impact when one sees not one, but two HR24s just below it in your sig.


Bidger, you've gotta be at least a little bit unhappy with your slow HR20-700 and your slooower HR21-100. I had an HR21-100 too, and I called Retention repeatedly until I got my '21 replaced with a '24. Then I replaced my suddenly-dying HR10 with another '24 and got MRV just two months ago.

You could upgrade too. (I turned away an installer who had only '24-500s, because I believed they were turkeys compared to the other '24s.)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Syzygy said:


> Bidger, you've gotta be at least a little bit unhappy with your slow HR20-700 and your slooower HR21-100. I had an HR21-100 too, and I called Retention repeatedly until I got my '21 replaced with a '24. Then I replaced my suddenly-dying HR10 with another '24 and got MRV just two months ago.
> 
> You could upgrade too. (I turned away an installer who had only '24-500s, because I believed they were turkeys compared to the other '24s.)


I have an HR24-500. Solid as a rock since day one. But, I don't have an AM21 or do Media Share so that may be the reason I've had no problems.

It seems preceptions are centered on how something is used. 

Mike


----------



## Richierich

Mike Bertelson said:


> I have an HR24-500. Solid as a rock since day one. But, I don't have an AM21 or do Media Share so that may be the reason I've had no problems.
> 
> It seems preceptions are centered on how something is used.
> 
> Mike


Me Too!!!

I don't have any problems with my HR24-500s now that I figured out my one problem of Audio Dropouts which has now been resolved and I don't have an AM21 hooked up to it which seems to cause problems and I don't use Media Share as I have a Music Server so my Perception about the HR24-500 is that it works just fine.


----------



## RobertE

Syzygy said:


> Right. The HR24 UI is still irritating in a hundred little ways, and I never lose sight of the fact that TiVo always did those things much better. But I won't give up my MRV, one-touch recording, bookmarks, (R) icons on scheduled-to-record programs in lists and in the Guide, triple-tap text entry -- just to get a THR22 with an old-fashioned but undoubtedly user-friendly UI.




So let me get this straight. Tivo always did things better...

Except for:
One touch recording
MRV
Bookmarks
(R) icons on programs in lists and guides that are scheduled to record
Triple tap text entry

So which is it?


----------



## Richierich

Hey Robert cut him some slack as it took me awhile to admit that almost everything I wanted in my HR10-250 (I was one of the first to get one) was now available in the Directv DVRs.

If I could get the New Directivo DVR without paying a Premium Price and still not get WHDVR Service (MRV) I would not Opt to buy it. 

But if it comes with a Premium Price then it better have alot of Bells & Whistles that I currently don't have with my HR2Xs.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And that's the bottom line. Nothing is perfect, it all comes down to the annoyances you're willing to accept.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RobertE said:


> So let me get this straight. Tivo always did things better...
> 
> Except for:
> One touch recording
> MRV
> Bookmarks
> (R) icons on programs in lists and guides that are scheduled to record
> Triple tap text entry
> 
> So which is it?





Stuart Sweet said:


> And that's the bottom line. Nothing is perfect, it all comes down to the annoyances you're willing to accept.


Pretty much sizes it up there...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> And that's the bottom line. Nothing is perfect, it all comes down to the annoyances you're willing to accept.


Everything has a compromise. Universal remotes, AVRs...DVRs. We choose what fits our requirements. Give up a feature here; put up with a quirk there, and all to get what fits our needs.

Mike


----------



## Richierich

Mike Bertelson said:


> Everything has a compromise. Universal remotes, AVRs...DVRs. We choose what fits our requirements. Give up a feature here; put up with a quirk there, and all to get what fits our needs.
> 
> Mike


EXACTLY!!! (said with Jay Leno's Voice).


----------



## inkahauts

Everyone has their preferences.. I can't think of one thing I liked better on a tivo than I do on my HR's....


----------



## Syzygy

inkahauts said:


> I can't think of one thing I liked better on a tivo than I do on my HR's....


Oh, come on! Everybody else is talking compromise, or liking some of this and some of that, and you just have to throw a verbal grenade into the crowd.

You cannot be serious!! (said in John McEnroe's most outraged voice)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Syzygy said:


> Oh, come on! Everybody else is talking compromise, or liking some of this and some of that, and you just have to throw a verbal grenade into the crowd.
> 
> You cannot be serious!! (*said in John McEnroe's most outraged voice*)


!rolling

I guess the only thing I miss is the full time DLB. I won't give the 90 buffers though.

I'm not trying to be confrontational but I have to be agree with inkahauts. I can't think of anything either. I'm not trying to ba flag waving DirecTV Fanboy, but with Nomad coming, the only thing that TiVo can do that I want will no longer be an issue.

It is possible to like what I have. :grin:

Mike


----------



## tonyd79

Syzygy said:


> Oh, come on! Everybody else is talking compromise, or liking some of this and some of that, and you just have to throw a verbal grenade into the crowd.
> 
> You cannot be serious!! (said in John McEnroe's most outraged voice)


Sorry. I cannot either. And I am trying.

Maybe the Tivo Guy video on startup?


----------



## wingrider01

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hey, they can try whatever they want... it may not hold up in court, but they can try.


true - after all Harley tried to patent the sound of their v-twin :lol:


----------



## harsh

wingrider01 said:


> Just saw this - interesting
> 
> http://www.winsupersite.com/article...o-Stop-TiVo-from-Importing-Devices-to-US.aspx


It seems like the cows are out of the barn on this one. The metaphors were out there before Microsoft obtained patents on them and they've waited far too long to pursue infringers.


----------



## harsh

inkahauts said:


> Everyone has their preferences.. I can't think of one thing I liked better on a tivo than I do on my HR's....


You've spent considerable time and energy convincing yourself so it isn't surprising that you may have lost perspective.


----------



## wingrider01

harsh said:


> It seems like the cows are out of the barn on this one. The metaphors were out there before Microsoft obtained patents on them and they've waited far too long to pursue infringers.


Maybe, but suspect MS will persue the issue - they are fairly tenacious especially if they feel they are in the right, given the legal team comparision I suspect MS fields a larger team to tie it up in court for a couple of years. Not sure what they need to obtain a cease and desist for importing till the case if validated, but that could seriously hurt tivo if MS can pull it off


----------



## Earl Bonovich

harsh said:


> You've spent considerable time and energy convincing yourself so it isn't surprising that you may have lost perspective.


Really? Lost perspective?
From a guy who spends an awful lot of time and engergy, convincing himself that he should keep DISH, but yet seems to be an expert in everything DIRECTV.

Once Again The Phrase Fits:
Mr Pot, meet Mr. Kettle


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> It seems like the cows are out of the barn on this one. The metaphors were out there before Microsoft obtained patents on them and they've waited far too long to pursue infringers.


Oh, so you've obtained a J.D. and passed the federal Patent Bar now, have you? :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> You've spent considerable time and energy convincing yourself so it isn't surprising that you may have lost perspective.


You've spent a lot of time telling Inkahauts he's wrong yet provided no evidence that he is. Exactly what is the perspective that was lost?

It seems, from your comment, that you think the TiVo is better. Do you even have first hand experience with either product to make such a bold assertion? Heck, from the posts I've seen, even the staunchest of Tivotees are settling in for disappointment (or perhaps acceptance) regarding the new DIRECTV TiVo (which is after all what we are talking about here).


----------



## Syzygy

inkahauts said:


> Everyone has their preferences.. I can't think of one thing I liked better on a tivo than I do on my HR's....





Syzygy said:


> Oh, come on! Everybody else is talking compromise, or liking some of this and some of that, and you just have to throw a verbal grenade into the crowd.
> 
> You cannot be serious!! (said in John McEnroe's most outraged voice)





Mike Bertelson said:


> !rolling
> 
> I guess the only thing I miss is the full time DLB. I won't give the 90 buffers though.
> 
> I'm not trying to be confrontational but I have to be agree with inkahauts. I can't think of anything either. I'm not trying to ba flag waving DirecTV Fanboy, but with Nomad coming, the only thing that TiVo can do that I want will no longer be an issue.
> 
> It is possible to like what I have. :grin:
> 
> Mike





tonyd79 said:


> Sorry. I cannot either. And I am trying.
> 
> Maybe the Tivo Guy video on startup?





harsh said:


> You've spent considerable time and energy convincing yourself so it isn't surprising that you may have lost perspective.





Doug Brott said:


> You've spent a lot of time telling Inkahauts he's wrong yet provided no evidence that he is. Exactly what is the perspective that was lost?
> 
> It seems, from your comment, that you think the TiVo is better. Do you even have first hand experience with either product to make such a bold assertion? Heck, from the posts I've seen, even the staunchest of Tivotees are settling in for disappointment (or perhaps acceptance) regarding the new DIRECTV TiVo (which is after all what we are talking about here).


A few comments seem to show a powerful bias toward DirecTV.

In reply to *Doug Brott*, who said that *harsh* provided no evidence, allow me to present my experience. The HR24 is, in truth, still frustrating in a hundred little ways, and I'm not gonna list 'em all. However, here are some leading issues:

• I've recently found recordings to be corrupted or totally blank.
• Shows in the To Do List got deleted after being recorded ("could not retain") or didn't get recorded at all.
• Manual rebooting was needed to (belatedly) fix the above errors; at other times it's needed to fix generally flaky behavior.
• A "reset everything" (which deletes all recordings and SLs) might be required to make the "Plus" DVR work *(or so I've heard)*.
• Series Links are limited to 50.
• When I was using them, ARSLs would record all reruns (albeit sometimes only partially) even though I specified First Run Only.
• Extra attention (above and beyond the usual care needed for ordinary recording requests) was required to make sure ARSL shows would be recorded.
• Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage, but sometimes engage when I don't want them to.
• _Searching, never adequate, has become less and less useful as it becomes more and more of a sales tool._


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Me thinks there are TiVo KoolAid drinkers who still think it tastes great even after toilet water was added...and those who perhaps see the light that TiVo has passed its 15 minutes of fame and is now nearly obsolete.

People on both sides, and entitled to their likes/dislikes I suppose.


----------



## ATARI

Syzygy said:


> The comments from *inkahauts* and *tonyd79* (and to a lesser extent,* Mike Bertelson*) reveal a powerful bias toward DirecTV, leading to a denial of facts and, perhaps, of their own memories.
> 
> In reply to *Doug Brott*, who said that *harsh* provided no evidence on the side of reason, allow me to present a few facts. The HR24 is, in truth, still frustrating in a hundred little ways, and I'm not gonna list 'em all. However, here are some leading issues:
> 
> • Recordings may be corrupted or totally blank.
> • A show in the To Do List may get deleted after being recorded ("could not retain") or may not get recorded at all.
> • Manual rebooting is frequently needed to (belatedly) fix the above errors, or just generally flaky behavior.
> • Occasionally, a "reset everything" (which deletes all recordings and SLs) is required to make the "Plus" DVR work.
> • Series Links are limited to 50.
> • ARSLs record all reruns (albeit sometimes only partially) even though you specify First Run Only.
> • ARSL users must babysit the Guide and/or the To Do List to make sure shows will be recorded.
> • Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage, but sometimes engage when you don't want them to.
> • _Searching, never adequate, has become less and less useful as it becomes more and more of a sales tool._


91 more to go...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Syzygy said:


> The comments from *inkahauts* and *tonyd79* (and to a lesser extent,* Mike Bertelson*) reveal a powerful bias toward DirecTV, leading to a denial of facts and, perhaps, of their own memories.
> 
> In reply to *Doug Brott*, who said that *harsh* provided no evidence on the side of reason, allow me to present a few facts. The HR24 is, in truth, still frustrating in a hundred little ways, and I'm not gonna list 'em all. However, here are some leading issues:
> 
> • Recordings may be corrupted or totally blank.
> • A show in the To Do List may get deleted after being recorded ("could not retain") or may not get recorded at all.
> • Manual rebooting is frequently needed to (belatedly) fix the above errors, or just generally flaky behavior.
> • Occasionally, a "reset everything" (which deletes all recordings and SLs) is required to make the "Plus" DVR work.
> • Series Links are limited to 50.
> • ARSLs record all reruns (albeit sometimes only partially) even though you specify First Run Only.
> • ARSL users must babysit the Guide and/or the To Do List to make sure shows will be recorded.
> • Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage, but sometimes engage when you don't want them to.
> • _Searching, never adequate, has become less and less useful as it becomes more and more of a sales tool._


You are correct, the SL limit is 50 and that's an issue for some people. I can't speak to ARSLs because I don't use them. You're correct, press-and-hold is a joke. However I've never has an issue with Search.

Here are some facts.

_Recordings may be corrupted or totally blank._ I have three DVRs and haven't seen this in years.

_A show in the To Do List may get deleted after being recorded ("could not retain") or may not get recorded at all._ I'm not even sure what some of this means but let me say I have lost or missed a recording in years.

_Occasionally, a "reset everything" (which deletes all recordings and SLs) is required to make the "Plus" DVR work._ Good Lord, why the heck would you ever reset everything except in the most dire of situations...BTW, I've never done it.

I bring up these three because they are completely miss leading. You constantly push these out there as if they are the de facto truth; as if the majority of users have these issues. That can't be farther from the truth. And, as for the "reset everything", if you have to that at all you have a major problem and if it's something you need to do occasionally then you have a serious hardware problem. It is completely abnormal and to put it out there as a necessity and common place is just spreading the worst possible tripe.

I seriously resent the fact that you telling me and others that we are incapable of making an objective decision and that only you can see the truth. If you have those recording/hardware issues listed above then you have a problem that needs to and can be fixed. If not then you're just using anecdotal issues of very few and trying to claim they are common place.

You can discuss all the features; what works, what doesn't, and any-danged-thing else related to TiVo and DirecTV DVRs you want to and no one will stop you. Seriously, you could have brought up all those points without having to comment on other posters and it would have been just fine.

Discuss the platforms and leave the mudslinging out of it.

Mike


----------



## RobertE

Syzygy said:


> However, here are some leading issues:
> 
> • Recordings may be corrupted or totally blank.


This can and does happen to all DVRs. Including your infallable tivo.



Syzygy said:


> • A show in the To Do List may get deleted after being recorded ("could not retain") or may not get recorded at all.


Same as above.



Syzygy said:


> • Manual rebooting is frequently needed to (belatedly) fix the above errors, or just generally flaky behavior.


No one has ever had to pull the plug on a tivo to get it working again? More ice for your tivo-aid?



Syzygy said:


> • Occasionally, a "reset everything" (which deletes all recordings and SLs) is required to make the "Plus" DVR work.


Never had to do a reset everything on my personal HR2x boxes, or any of the thousands of clients I've had dealings with over the last 4+ years. Let's write this off as myth busted.



Syzygy said:


> • Series Links are limited to 50.


You score a point for this one.



Syzygy said:


> • ARSLs record all reruns (albeit sometimes only partially) even though you specify First Run Only.


Never use ARSLs myself, so can't say on its operation.



Syzygy said:


> • ARSL users must babysit the Guide and/or the To Do List to make sure shows will be recorded.


Checking your To Do list periodicly is never a bad idea. Guide data glitches have affected all DVRs in the past (even the precious tivo) and most likely will in the future.



Syzygy said:


> • Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage, but sometimes engage when you don't want them to.


Going to push this one into the opinion group.



Syzygy said:


> • _Searching, never adequate, has become less and less useful as it becomes more and more of a sales tool._


Ditto.

Better luck next time.


----------



## ffemtreed

Here are some things on my list that I hope the new tivo improves upon the HRs. In no certain order

#1 Guide GUI (list style)
#2 Responds promptly to remote commands
#3 Overall system speed up
#4 increase Season passes to at least 75 or 100
#5 Tivo2Go functionality
#6 Boot up time
#7 Full time live dual buffers (I really miss that) 
#8 No Audio dropouts that make my AVR go clicking crazy
#9 built in OTA like the HR10-250 (I know pipe dream)
#10 Scanning ability for OTA with built in tuners or AM21 add on
#11 Wishlists without having to learn a foreign language
#12 Auto Tune feature to turn on a certain channel at a certain time
#13 Picture in Picture capability
#14 Sleep timer to put system into standby
#15 menu options to turn off that bright blue ring (if the ring is even there)
#16 Ability to use DVR to while not hooked to Satellite
#17 Ability to archive content
#18 More than 2 tuners
#19 Widescreen (16X9) GUI
#20 IP control (I know this is coming soon to the HRs)
#21 Add harddrives without rendering others useless
#22 Have a way of backing up settings such as season passes
#23 Move content from DVR to DVR
#24 Customize searches (CIG, no PPV and etc)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ffemtreed said:


> Here are some things on my list that I hope the new tivo improves upon the HRs. In no certain order
> 
> #1 Guide GUI (list style)
> #2 Responds promptly to remote commands
> #3 Overall system speed up
> #4 increase Season passes to at least 75 or 100
> #5 Tivo2Go functionality
> #6 Boot up time
> #7 Full time live dual buffers (I really miss that)
> #8 No Audio dropouts that make my AVR go clicking crazy
> #9 built in OTA like the HR10-250 (I know pipe dream)
> #10 Scanning ability for OTA with built in tuners or AM21 add on
> #11 Wishlists without having to learn a foreign language
> #12 Auto Tune feature to turn on a certain channel at a certain time
> #13 Picture in Picture capability
> #14 Sleep timer to put system into standby
> #15 menu options to turn off that bright blue ring (if the ring is even there)
> #16 Ability to use DVR to while not hooked to Satellite
> #17 Ability to archive content
> #18 More than 2 tuners
> #19 Widescreen (16X9) GUI
> #20 IP control (I know this is coming soon to the HRs)
> #21 Add harddrives without rendering others useless
> #22 Have a way of backing up settings such as season passes
> #23 Move content from DVR to DVR
> #24 Customize searches (CIG, no PPV and etc)


Interesting list. Quite a few of these will be coming to an HR near you.

The new receivers are getting much faster, including boot up, so as the Hx24s and whatever comes next become the standard you see the speed issues and remote response go away.

Tivo2Go functionality? As we've seen in the Nomad thread that functionality is coming also, as is IP control.

I'm not sure you'll ever be able to move programs between DVRs but with MRV why would you need to?

I'm hoping to see a 16x9 HD GUI myself.

I doubt we'll see OTA scanning anytime soon.

It seems like the HR34 will have >2 tuners, PIP, 1TB (won't need to add storage) so there a few more. I wonder how many SLs it will have. 

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect there may also be a significant number of HD DVR users who would not see TiVo functionality (in this day & age) as the "standard" by which others should be judged or compared. 

In looking at the most recent 2 functionality lists posted...one could make a case that most of those are preferences of the poster, as opposed to mainstream "requirements". 

MythBusters would have to be called on several of them as they're totally bogus.

There's nothing wrong at all in having preferences, one way or the other. That said, one person's "must have" is another person's "who cares?".


----------



## ffemtreed

Mike Bertelson said:


> Interesting list. Quite a few of these will be coming to an HR near you.
> 
> The new receivers are getting much faster, including boot up, so as the Hx24s and whatever comes next become the standard you see the speed issues and remote response go away.
> 
> Tivo2Go functionality? As we've seen in the Nomad thread that functionality is coming also, as is IP control.
> 
> I'm not sure you'll ever be able to move programs between DVRs but with MRV why would you need to?
> 
> I'm hoping to see a 16x9 HD GUI myself.
> 
> I doubt we'll see OTA scanning anytime soon.
> 
> It seems like the HR34 will have >2 tuners, PIP, 1TB (won't need to add storage) so there a few more. I wonder how many SLs it will have.
> 
> Mike


I want to be able to move between receivers mainly for backup purposes. Say, I get a new box because the old one has a problem. I want to move some of those video's off of that box onto the new one (or another existing) before I send it back.

1TB -- you won't need to add storage.... With the rumors of up to 5 tuners you can fill that space fairly quickly.

Remember you'll never need more than 4mb of RAM or bigger than a 50MB hard drive.

PS -- yes i am excted about the HR34 or whatever they are calling it now. But its just vaporware like the TIVO is until I can get my hands on it.


----------



## Richierich

ffemtreed said:


> I want to be able to move between receivers mainly for backup purposes. Say, I get a new box because the old one has a problem. I want to move some of those video's off of that box onto the new one (or another existing) before I send it back.


If Directv creates an Archival/Back Up Process down the road then you want need to move recordings between DVRs because if you replace your DVR you can just Offload your Backed Up Recordings from your USB External Hard Drive to the New DVR or to the Old DVR that you replaced the hard drive in because of drive failure.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ffemtreed said:


> I want to be able to move between receivers mainly for backup purposes. Say, I get a new box because the old one has a problem. I want to move some of those video's off of that box onto the new one (or another existing) before I send it back.
> 
> 1TB -- you won't need to add storage.... With the rumors of up to 5 tuners you can fill that space fairly quickly.
> 
> Remember you'll never need more than 4mb of RAM or bigger than a 50MB hard drive.
> 
> PS -- yes i am excted about the HR34 or whatever they are calling it now. But its just vaporware like the TIVO is until I can get my hands on it.


Nomad should help with archival backup...I think.

Wow, 1TB should get you about 200+ hours of MPEG-4 HD. What would you consider "fairly quickly" in filling up that space? Most of what we record is watched and deleted within a week. :shrug:

I'm not really sure what you are referring to about the "4mb of RAM or bigger than a 50MB hard drive" thing. :scratchin

I'm pretty excited about the HR34 also but based on what I've read in Citivas' thread, it would seem to be more than vaporware. There is just too much listed/discussed there to think it's gonna go by the wayside. My 3.34¢ FWIW. :grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> If Directv creates an Archival/Back Up Process down the road then you want need to move recordings between DVRs because if you replace your DVR you can just Offload your Backed Up Recordings from your USB External Hard Drive to the New DVR or to the Old DVR that you replaced the hard drive in because of drive failure.


That issue has been discussed for some time, and is not a make/model/brand topic in any way...it a universal basic need - to archive. Here's just one recent place with plenty of discussion:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=188798&highlight=archiving


Mike Bertelson said:


> I'm pretty excited about the HR34 also but based on what I've read in Citivas' thread, it would seem to be more than vaporware.


Agree.

In the detailed and photo-based CES onsite report thread...we saw it, watched it demoed, and discussed capabilities with the person there. Its hardly vaporware....betaware perhaps.

As for the new TiVobox...TiVo themselves still has chosed NOT to pin down its final features or availability.


----------



## Richierich

1 TB of space is really not that much when you consider how much space HD eats up.

I have 14 TBs of Storage Capacity each with 2 TB of space and a couple of those are close to being maxed out. I don't just watch and delete but I save alot of Golf Tournaments, Football Games, Food Channel Shows, etc. that I want to go back and watch over and over again.

If I find out I haven't watched it and no longer have an interest in watching it I delete it at that time.

I wish you could have a Plug n Play hard drive as I have on my HP PC where you just insert an external drive and then back up to it. If you could just pull out your hard drive and plug a larger one in that would be nice.

Also, I do like Tivo's Dual Live Buffer so you just change channel and it automatically Pauses the show and switches channels. So easy even a Caveman like me can do it. :lol:


----------



## ffemtreed

Mike Bertelson said:


> Nomad should help with archival backup...I think.
> 
> Wow, 1TB should get you about 200+ hours of MPEG-4 HD. What would you consider "fairly quickly" in filling up that space? Most of what we record is watched and deleted within a week. :shrug:
> 
> I'm not really sure what you are referring to about the "4mb of RAM or bigger than a 50MB hard drive" thing. :scratchin
> 
> I'm pretty excited about the HR34 also but based on what I've read in Citivas' thread, it would seem to be more than vaporware. There is just too much listed/discussed there to think it's gonna go by the wayside. My 3.34¢ FWIW. :grin:
> 
> Mike


You must not be a computer geek, i'll forgive for that.

My viewing habits there isn't enough time in a week to watch the shows I want to watch. I work too much and most of my TV time is spent watching hockey games and football live. So what I do is record as many shows as I can and watch them all during the off seasons of the sports (ie during the summer). This is why a failed box is so devastating to me and a lot of my wishes have to do with backup and redundancy.

Not to mention the trend towards programs going to 2 hour episodes.....ARGH!!!!!! Its almost a chore to watch an episode in one sitting. I pretty much stopped watching Hells Kitchen because of this.

Some of the shows which I consider important I record on two different DVR's just in case.

With OnDemand becoming more and more popular the need for storage space decreases, but the quality usually sucks and you can get most of the popular broadcast network shows.


----------



## Richierich

ffemtreed said:


> Remember you'll never need more than 4mb of RAM or bigger than a 50MB hard drive.


Yes, back in the good ole days we thought that would be all we need. Hey when I got my first 10 Gig Hard Drive I thought why do I need this as I will Never Ever Fill this sucker up.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

richierich said:


> 1 TB of space is really not that much when you consider how much space HD eats up.
> 
> I have 14 TBs of Storage Capacity each with 2 TB of space and a couple of those are close to being maxed out. I don't just watch and delete but I save alot of Golf Tournaments, Football Games, Food Channel Shows, etc. that I want to go back and watch over and over again.
> 
> If I find out I haven't watched it and no longer have an interest in watching it I delete it at that time.
> 
> I wish you could have a Plug n Play hard drive as I have on my HP PC where you just insert an external drive and then back up to it. If you could just pull out your hard drive and plug a larger one in that would be nice.
> 
> Also, I do like Tivo's Dual Live Buffer so you just change channel and it automatically Pauses the show and switches channels. So easy even a Caveman like me can do it. :lol:


14TB, Great Googly Moogly! :eek2:

That's potentially thousands of hours of MPEG-4 HD. Just keeping track of it all seems a bit daunting.

I kinda suspect that's a bit beyond what the average subscriber is doing. :grin:

That's a lotta TV to watch. 

Mike


----------



## kymikes

Don't want to be antagonistic but, lately, this thread is wasted. I haven't seen any item on either side of the question that hasn't been 'beaten to death' before (if not 100 times). While I was once a TIVO fanatic, TIVO's problems were self inflicted. While they might improve some things, I have NO interest in an HR10 that will record MPEG4.

If you are going to advocate a TIVO box, it must be in light of today's environment - not where things were 3 - 4 years ago. Many of the items on the wish lists would be nice additions to either box (TIVO or HRxx), but there doesn't appear to be much hope that they will be part of the next Direct TIVO (by TIVO's statements about radical changes).

We are in a different world today. Let's move on and quit trying to resurrect the past. Just my opinion.


----------



## tonyd79

Syzygy said:


> • Recordings may be corrupted or totally blank.


I had bad recordings on my HD Tivo. Haven't had one in so long with my DirecTV DVRs that was not signal related since I had my HD Tivo.



Syzygy said:


> • A show in the To Do List may get deleted after being recorded ("could not retain") or may not get recorded at all.


Never had this happen to me. Sorry if it did to you. Assuming it happened to me is showing bias.


Syzygy said:


> • Manual rebooting is frequently needed to (belatedly) fix the above errors, or just generally flaky behavior.


My HD Tivo would boot itself about twice a week without me forcing it. Which is better?


Syzygy said:


> • Occasionally, a "reset everything" (which deletes all recordings and SLs) is required to make the "Plus" DVR work.


Never, never, never have I done one of these on three DVRs used for a few years now. Whacha talking about?



Syzygy said:


> • Series Links are limited to 50.


Since I don't care, why would I assume Tivo was better on this? BTW, with true MRV, I have a series limit of 150 in my house.



Syzygy said:


> • ARSLs record all reruns (albeit sometimes only partially) even though you specify First Run Only.


I got this on Tivo as well. That is guide data based.



Syzygy said:


> • ARSL users must babysit the Guide and/or the To Do List to make sure shows will be recorded.


Anyone who does not check their DVR, Tivo or not, is a fool. I checked my Tivos all the time and had to force things with them. 


Syzygy said:


> • Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage, but sometimes engage when you don't want them to.


I don't use them. There is a simple workaround for everyone I want to use. Skip to tick works better on the HRs. Mine have NEVER engaged when I don't want them to. User problem.


Syzygy said:


> • _Searching, never adequate, has become less and less useful as it becomes more and more of a sales tool._


Tivo searching is HORRIBLE. If anything, DirecTV's has been heading TOWAD the horrible TIVO searching. Of course, since you haven't used Tivo search since an HR10, I believe, you have no idea how slow and balky it is and what crap it returns.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ffemtreed said:


> You must not be a computer geek, i'll forgive for that.
> 
> My viewing habits there isn't enough time in a week to watch the shows I want to watch. I work too much and most of my TV time is spent watching hockey games and football live. So what I do is record as many shows as I can and watch them all during the off seasons of the sports (ie during the summer). This is why a failed box is so devastating to me and a lot of my wishes have to do with backup and redundancy.
> 
> Not to mention the trend towards programs going to 2 hour episodes.....ARGH!!!!!! Its almost a chore to watch an episode in one sitting. I pretty much stopped watching Hells Kitchen because of this.
> 
> Some of the shows which I consider important I record on two different DVR's just in case.
> 
> With OnDemand becoming more and more popular the need for storage space decreases, but the quality usually sucks and you can get most of the popular broadcast network shows.


I actually am a computer geek. This year is the first time in twenty five years I haven't had a home built PC in the house. I custom wired my house data and even had a mini optical fiber network for a few months (weird experiment for work).

I've even worked a few years in IT but I must be missing something on the "4mb of RAM or bigger than a 50MB hard drive" thing as it applies to DVRs. 

Mike


----------



## tonyd79

ffemtreed said:


> Here are some things on my list that I hope the new tivo improves upon the HRs. In no certain order
> 
> #1 Guide GUI (list style)
> #2 Responds promptly to remote commands
> #3 Overall system speed up
> #4 increase Season passes to at least 75 or 100
> #5 Tivo2Go functionality
> #6 Boot up time
> #7 Full time live dual buffers (I really miss that)
> #8 No Audio dropouts that make my AVR go clicking crazy
> #9 built in OTA like the HR10-250 (I know pipe dream)
> #10 Scanning ability for OTA with built in tuners or AM21 add on
> #11 Wishlists without having to learn a foreign language
> #12 Auto Tune feature to turn on a certain channel at a certain time
> #13 Picture in Picture capability
> #14 Sleep timer to put system into standby
> #15 menu options to turn off that bright blue ring (if the ring is even there)
> #16 Ability to use DVR to while not hooked to Satellite
> #17 Ability to archive content
> #18 More than 2 tuners
> #19 Widescreen (16X9) GUI
> #20 IP control (I know this is coming soon to the HRs)
> #21 Add harddrives without rendering others useless
> #22 Have a way of backing up settings such as season passes
> #23 Move content from DVR to DVR
> #24 Customize searches (CIG, no PPV and etc)


I see a lot on your list are not even available with Tivo today. But somehow you think Tivo might add them to a DirecTivo.

I guess we all need dreamers in my life....wait, I don't. 

And what the heck is the boot up time issue? I can wait a minute or two for something that happens about twice a month, and normally forced by me during a software upgrade on a CE.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> 1 TB of space is really not that much when you consider how much space HD eats up.


I suspect 1TB suffices to meet the "needs" for an "average user".

Based on the information on the HR34, for example...the DirecTV profile of an "average" DVR user is one DVR with "up to 4 additional viewing rooms".

In that environment, 200+ hours of MPEG4 recordings is likely more than what that "average" user will retain at any given time.

While a number of us at DBSTalk may perhaps fall into something similar to a "packrat" category when it comes to storing content...mainstream users are another breed, and 1TB will be more than sufficient for the largest population of DVR users.

The new TiVobox is also rumored to use a 1TB drive.


----------



## kymikes

richierich said:


> Yes, back in the good ole days we thought that would be all we need. Hey when I got my first 10 Gig Hard Drive I thought why do I need this as I will Never Ever Fill this sucker up.


You are far too young. My first PC had 128 KB and 2 5 1/4 floppies and I caught all kind of grief from my geek friends for wasting money because anyone who couldn't contain their software in 64 KB was just lazy and incompetent. I was also around to hear the discussions about memory usage above the 640K boundary because no one would ever need that much (Bill Gates). It is a very different world (as I just added a 2 TB esata drive to my HR21).


----------



## Richierich

Mike Bertelson said:


> 14TB, Great Googly Moogly! :eek2:
> 
> That's potentially thousands of hours of MPEG-4 HD. Just keeping track of it all seems a bit daunting.
> 
> I kinda suspect that's a bit beyond what the average subscriber is doing. :grin:
> Mike


I have 3 DVRs Backing Up the other 4 DVRs but I like to keep recordings and a lot of people who have kids keep their kids stuff because they watch them over and over again. Ask any father how many times their children have seen Shrek 3 or Lion King.

Yes but more and more customers are getting into the DVR Time Shifting Thing because of longer hours at work so they can watch what they want to watch when and where they want to watch it.

I would love to see the statistics for the last 5 years on how many customers have shifted from receivers to DVRs.


----------



## ffemtreed

tonyd79 said:


> I see a lot on your list are not even available with Tivo today. But somehow you think Tivo might add them to a DirecTivo.
> 
> I guess we all need dreamers in my life....wait, I don't.
> 
> And what the heck is the boot up time issue? I can wait a minute or two for something that happens about twice a month, and normally forced by me during a software upgrade on a CE.


And at what point did I say the TIVO's do this now???? I said what I would like to see IMPROVED from the HR's. You don't have to be so defensive just because someone doesn't agree that the HR's are perfect little DVRs that don't need anymore features added to it.

PS the boot times are in 10's of minutes not a couple. Last time I timed it it took 21 minutes to get to a live picture for my HR22-100. That was a reboot, not a software download.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> I would love to see the statistics for the last 5 years on how many customers have shifted from receivers to DVRs.


According to the financial reports they've done in recent months...I believe they stated "about 40%" of customers had a DVR...but no stats on how many had more than one. I would suspect *most of the 40%*, however, fall into the 1 DVR category....making users with 3,4,5 or more a minuscule percent of the user base.

Put more "diplomatically"...those folks with more than 4 DVRs...yeah...you're user freaks of nature.... !rolling.

Assuming the rumors are true about 1TB of storage in the (some day it might actually arrive) new TiVobox...that will likely be quite sufficient for most users.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I have heard several times that the new device will be nothing more than an MPEG4-ified HR10. That would seem to imply that most of the items on your list, if not all, will not happen. It should be interesting.


----------



## ffemtreed

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have heard several times that the new device will be nothing more than an MPEG4-ified HR10. That would seem to imply that most of the items on your list, if not all, will not happen. It should be interesting.


I don't expect most of it to happen, but its still my wishlist!!


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Assuming the rumors are true about 1TB of storage in the (some day it might actually arrive) new TiVobox...that will likely be quite sufficient for most users.


I guess so but I bet that will increase dramatically with time as the newer generations raised on electronic toys will want more and more saved content.

Yes I know that Rich584 and me along with Tom Robertson are in the very very tiny minority of customers but somebody has to be King!!! Someone has to lead the Parade!!! :lol:


----------



## Richierich

ffemtreed said:


> I don't expect most of it to happen, but its still my wishlist!!


And a Very Nicely Compiled Wishlist I might add.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have heard several times that the new device will be nothing more than an MPEG4-ified HR10. That would seem to imply that most of the items on your list, if not all, will not happen. It should be interesting.


*My understanding is that every new HD TiVo DVR will include one of these...*


----------



## bonscott87

ffemtreed said:


> PS the boot times are in 10's of minutes not a couple. Last time I timed it it took 21 minutes to get to a live picture for my HR22-100. That was a reboot, not a software download.


Something wrong with your box then, perhaps get it replaced? Never took more then 5 minutes, if that, to reboot either my HR20 or HR21 back to live tv.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

Back a few years ago I had a HR22-100 that had a HMDI issue with my Sony TV that would sometimes reboot on its own upon power up, 9 minutes to live tv. Issue has long been fixed.

The last TiVo units I had rebooted a couple of times a day, every day. Some folks here only remember what they like, I loved my TiVo and now with all of the features of the HR series I will likely never own another TiVo.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ffemtreed said:


> And at what point did I say the TIVO's do this now???? I said what I would like to see IMPROVED from the HR's. You don't have to be so defensive just because someone doesn't agree that the HR's are perfect little DVRs that don't need anymore features added to it.
> 
> PS the boot times are in 10's of minutes not a couple. Last time I timed it it took 21 minutes to get to a live picture for my HR22-100. That was a reboot, not a software download.


Wow, that's a long time. My HR21-100 takes ≤ that with a software download. It should be less than half of that.

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *My understanding is that every new HD TiVo DVR will include one of these...*


By the way...I got one of those with the HR10-250 I had years ago too... 

Exact same shirt... 

One's enough for me, thank you.


----------



## CuriousMark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *My understanding is that every new HD TiVo DVR will include one of these...*


I needed one of those for my HR24/H24 experience. Based on this thread and the one at TCF I really expected them to be much more than they really turned out to be.

Now don't get your feathers ruffled, I am not saying they are bad, but they aren't what the DirecTV fan boys made them out to be either.

I am dissappointed that Media share doesn't work as people and DirecTV implied. I am dissappointed that Media share doesn't get web video content I desire, but IFC picking up Onion News eliminated my biggest complaint in that area. And I may be less dissappointed when Nomad comes, assuming it won't add to my monthly bill. So things are headed in the right direction, but currently it is still disappointing to me.


----------



## sigma1914

ffemtreed said:


> ...
> PS the boot times are in 10's of minutes not a couple. Last time I timed it it took 21 minutes to get to a live picture for my HR22-100. That was a reboot, not a software download.


Just tested a menu reset on my HR24-100. From the time I pushed '-' to start it until live TV was 4:56.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

CuriousMark said:


> I needed one of those for my HR24/H24 experience. Based on this thread and the one at TCF I really expected them to be much more than they really turned out to be.
> 
> Now don't get your feathers ruffled, I am not saying they are bad, but they aren't what the DirecTV fan boys made them out to be either.
> 
> I am dissappointed that Media share doesn't work as people and DirecTV implied. I am dissappointed that Media share doesn't get web video content I desire, but IFC picking up Onion News eliminated my biggest complaint in that area. And I may be less dissappointed when Nomad comes, assuming it won't add to my monthly bill. So things are headed in the right direction, but currently it is still disappointing to me.


Sorry to hear that, but nothing compares with the nightmares experienced with past TiVobox DVRs that I witnessed for years firsthand.

In comparison....my H24/HR24 experience had been a fanboy's dream. 

That said...I agree that MediaShare is not ready for most folks in terms of prime time. They've done some remodeling on it of late...but there's more work to be done for sure.

That's not really an H24/HR24 issue so much as an overall HD DVR firmware issue - it impacts all their HR2x units.

In contrast...when I turn on the new HD Tivobox....well....I get a totally blank screen.... :lol:


----------



## Syzygy

ffemtreed said:


> Here are some things on my list that I hope the new tivo improves upon the HRs...


Here's my guess as to which of those 24 wishes are likely to be granted by TiVo:

#1 Guide GUI (list style)
#4 Increase Season Passes to at least 75 or 100 
#7 Full time live dual buffers (I really miss that) 
#11 Wishlists without having to learn a foreign language
#24 Customized searches (CIG, no PPV and etc)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That sounds about right. If an HR takes much longer than that to boot, something is wrong inside it.


----------



## wingrider01

kymikes said:


> You are far too young. My first PC had 128 KB and 2 5 1/4 floppies and I caught all kind of grief from my geek friends for wasting money because anyone who couldn't contain their software in 64 KB was just lazy and incompetent. I was also around to hear the discussions about memory usage above the 640K boundary because no one would ever need that much (Bill Gates). It is a very different world (as I just added a 2 TB esata drive to my HR21).


you are pretty young also, my first was a altair 8080 that I bought mail order from an ad in Popular electronics and had to build it - still have it in the basement and I am protecting it from my wife when she getsin one of her cleaning moods


----------



## ffemtreed

sigma1914 said:


> Just tested a menu reset on my HR24-100. From the time I pushed '-' to start it until live TV was 4:56.


I am not privledged enough to get a 24 yet. MAybe when one of my boxes die i'll get lucky enough to be sent a 24.

I am trying to hold out for the HR34/HMC or whatever it is before I agree to any more commitments. I am almost out of the doghouse and want to keep my options open. I am seriously thinking or going to netflix and OTA, at least for a bit of time to save up some $$$$$


----------



## Syzygy

Mike Bertelson said:


> You can discuss all the features; what works, what doesn't, and any-danged-thing else related to TiVo and DirecTV DVRs you want to and no one will stop you. Seriously, you could have brought up all those points without having to comment on other posters and it would have been just fine.


Sorry about that, Mike. I revised my inflammatory post in several ways: 


Syzygy said:


> *A few comments seem to* show a powerful bias toward DirecTV.
> 
> In reply to Doug Brott, who said that harsh provided no evidence, allow me to present _*my experience*_...


----------



## bonscott87

ffemtreed said:


> I am seriously thinking or going to netflix and OTA, at least for a bit of time to save up some $$$$$


I've been doing that for a year now. Come on in, the water is warm and feels great.


----------



## Richierich

Hey, I've got OTA and Directv and Netflix (Netstreaming and DVD Mailings) and VUDU which is Great and I just love my LG BD590 Bluray Player with a 250 Gig Hard Drive for downloading from Netflix or VUDU so Alternatives are Great!!!


----------



## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> Here's my guess as to which of those 24 wishes are likely to be granted by TiVo:
> 
> #1 Guide GUI (list style)
> #4 Increase Season Passes to at least 75 or 100
> #7 Full time live dual buffers (I really miss that)
> #11 Wishlists without having to learn a foreign language
> #24 Customized searches (CIG, no PPV and etc)


1. I am sure you will get that.. even though you have a version of it on the hr that I find even better for me, but not everyone is the same....

4. I am guessing no limits at all on that... They didn't have them before. Just a long wait time.

7. Yep, they will have that active all the time too I'd bet.. with an entire 30 mins for each buffer instead of the 90 mins on the HRs Again, all about personal preference.

11. I'd rather learn a foreign language so I don't have to babysit the darn thing like I had to with tivo that NEVER properly recorded any of my sports wishlists... This is the number one reason I will never own only a tivo system again... A total non starter for me.

24. This one gets me more than any, because I always had new shopping channels showing up in the darn guide ever week that I had to delete.. Thats even worse than Directvs CIG issues for me... At least I know directvs is consistent... Tivo was always a freaking crap shoot for me...


----------



## tonyd79

"ffemtreed" said:


> And at what point did I say the TIVO's do this now???? I said what I would like to see IMPROVED from the HR's. You don't have to be so defensive just because someone doesn't agree that the HR's are perfect little DVRs that don't need anymore features added to it.
> 
> PS the boot times are in 10's of minutes not a couple. Last time I timed it it took 21 minutes to get to a live picture for my HR22-100. That was a reboot, not a software download.


Never said you said they were on TiVo today. I thought it funny that you are hoping TiVo would add a bunch of stuff on a box that isn't theirs that they don't have on boxes if their own. I am not defensive but I thought it also funny that you didn't ask for these things on a directv dvr. Sure looked like you were hoping the TiVo gods were going to be more than they are.

And 21 minutes for a reboot is damned long. Mine take less than 5 minutes on three different boxes. It usually takes less than 21 to do a software reload. Do you have signal problems so the satellite info takes along time? (I ask because that is by far the longest part of a reboot.)


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Oh, so you've obtained a J.D. and passed the federal Patent Bar now, have you? :lol:


Even a blowhard such as yourself knows that you don't have to have a Juris Doctor to sit for and pass the Patent Bar.


----------



## ffemtreed

tonyd79 said:


> Never said you said they were on TiVo today. I thought it funny that you are hoping TiVo would add a bunch of stuff on a box that isn't theirs that they don't have on boxes if their own. I am not defensive but I thought it also funny that you didn't ask for these things on a directv dvr. Sure looked like you were hoping the TiVo gods were going to be more than they are.
> 
> And 21 minutes for a reboot is damned long. Mine take less than 5 minutes on three different boxes. It usually takes less than 21 to do a software reload. Do you have signal problems so the satellite info takes along time? (I ask because that is by far the longest part of a reboot.)


We are talking about TIVO's in this thread, but you could very well substitute my list to say what I would like to see on the next version of the HR series DVR's.

Still trying to figure out why you think its such a bad thing to have some wishes and wants?


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Even a blowhard such as yourself knows that you don't have to have a Juris Doctor to sit for and pass the Patent Bar.


Googled that all by your lonesome, did you? :lol:

So, are you asserting that you are a registered patent agent pursuant to the rules and regulations of the the United States Patent and Trademark Office? Of course, you'd have to have at least a bachelor's degree in a recognized technical subject or prove relevant engineering experience by having taken and passed the FE exam. And there are still differences between a full patent attorney and a patent agent. But of course, I'm _sure_ you knew that already . . . :nono2:

So, what are your degrees in?


----------



## MysteryMan

LameLefty said:


> Googled that all by your lonesome, did you? :lol:
> 
> So, are you asserting that you are a registered patent agent pursuant to the rules and regulations of the the United States Patent and Trademark Office? Of course, you'd have to have at least a bachelor's degree in a recognized technical subject or prove relevant engineering experience by having taken and passed the FE exam. And there are still differences between a full patent attorney and a patent agent. But of course, I'm _sure_ you knew that already . . . :nono2:
> 
> So, what are your degrees in?


DISHology! :lol:


----------



## Scott Kocourek

Come on now, let's not resort to personal attacks or name calling. 

Play nice.


----------



## bonscott87

inkahauts said:


> 4. I am guessing no limits at all on that... They didn't have them before. Just a long wait time.


No kidding. While I would have liked more then 50 (not that I ever went over that) the Tivo got sooooo slow the more you added. Get near 100 and it was glacial adding a new season pass or reordering it. Hopefully Tivo has fixed that problem.



> 7. Yep, they will have that active all the time too I'd bet.. with an entire 30 mins for each buffer instead of the 90 mins on the HRs Again, all about personal preference.


You know, I still don't understand this "big issue" of full time dual buffers. I mean, is it soooooo hard to push one extra button to activate the 2nd buffer on the HR? If the fans of Tivo are down to complaining about that...please.



> 11. I'd rather learn a foreign language so I don't have to babysit the darn thing like I had to with tivo that NEVER properly recorded any of my sports wishlists... This is the number one reason I will never own only a tivo system again... A total non starter for me.


You know, same thing for me. Over several of my DirecTivo's I could never get the wishlist to properly record Red Wings games. I got to the point I just never trusted it and left it as a saved search I ran every couple weeks and manually recorded games. On the HR I was gun shy and kept doing it until the boolean's were added. Then I tried that and it never once missed recording a game, and on the correct channel no less because you can limit the search to just one channel unlike on the Tivo which would always want to record on the lowest channel number which most likely was blacked out for me and thus I'd have a 3 hour recording of black screen.

DirecTV got this one right on the HR.


----------



## ffemtreed

bonscott87 said:


> You know, I still don't understand this "big issue" of full time dual buffers. I mean, is it soooooo hard to push one extra button to activate the 2nd buffer on the HR? If the fans of Tivo are down to complaining about that...please.
> 
> .


I like the always live buffers for those times when you accidentally bump a button on the remote or the dog steps on the remote or the wife wants a quick look at the weather channel while I go get another beer.

I use it more as a safety net than anything. This happened to me a lot while watching the olympics for some reason.

You are correct about the previous tivo and wishlists trying to record hockey games. It was a PITA. I would hope that feature could be improved upon with the new tivo. The boolean logic code used on the HR's is like a chore for me. The last thing I want to do when I get home from work is code boolean searches into my DVR. I definatly understand how to work it because I have somewhat of a computer programming background (C,C++,COBOL and Turbo Pascal) and currently visual basic and vbs scripts.


----------



## ATARI

ffemtreed said:


> I like the always live buffers for those times when you accidentally bump a button on the remote or the dog steps on the remote or the wife wants a quick look at the weather channel while I go get another beer.
> 
> I use it more as a safety net than anything. This happened to me a lot while watching the olympics for some reason.
> 
> You are correct about the previous tivo and wishlists trying to record hockey games. It was a PITA. I would hope that feature could be improved upon with the new tivo. The boolean logic code used on the HR's is like a chore for me. The last thing I want to do when I get home from work is code boolean searches into my DVR. I definatly understand how to work it because I have somewhat of a computer programming background (C,C++,COBOL and Turbo Pascal) and currently visual basic and vbs scripts.


Do what I do when I go to the fridge or bathroom -- take the remote with you.

No, I am not joking.

With two kids under 8 and a wife, you can never be too protective with the remote.


----------



## tonyd79

"ffemtreed" said:


> I like the always live buffers for those times when you accidentally bump a button on the remote or the dog steps on the remote or the wife wants a quick look at the weather channel while I go get another beer.


I don't know what TiVo you used but constant dual buffers don't save you from button bumps other than if you jumped to the other buffer. Hit the channel change and the buffer you are watching dumps.

The only dvr I have had that does what you want is the fios one where the second buffer is the previously viewed channel. But that leads to other use model issues.


----------



## tonyd79

"ffemtreed" said:


> We are talking about TIVO's in this thread, but you could very well substitute my list to say what I would like to see on the next version of the HR series DVR's.
> 
> Still trying to figure out why you think its such a bad thing to have some wishes and wants?


Nothing wrong with a wishlist. Why do you think I think it is a bad thing. I commented on the irony of who you were hoping would do it. That is all. And you say I am defensive. I'm chuckling and having a fun chat. Nothing more.

As for wishlists. They have helped improve both TiVo and directv DVRs. No way they are a bad thing.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Oh, definitely not a bad thing. But I think the best thing right now would be to be realistic.


----------



## ffemtreed

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, definitely not a bad thing. But I think the best thing right now would be to be realistic.


What do you see in my list that is unrealistic?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think that expecting anything more than an MPEG4 version of the HR10 is unreasonable.


----------



## cypherx

I don't think expecting anything more than the current half-assed premiere is unreasonable. But if DirecTV is truly doing an HDGUI this year as they hinted in the investor presentation, sounds like the in house DVR will be better than an old Tivo UI.

Getting good things out of DirecTV is like pulling teeth these days. (National HD adds and an UPDATED Tivo that is current with 2011 - not 2005).


----------



## Doug Brott

cypherx said:


> I don't think expecting anything more than the current half-assed premiere is unreasonable.


HR10 + MPEG4 should be the expectation. Wanting more than that is reasonable .. expecting more than that is not.


----------



## cypherx

Doug Brott said:


> HR10 + MPEG4 should be the expectation. Wanting more than that is reasonable .. expecting more than that is not.


Oops, yup.... Wanting and Expecting, two different animals!


----------



## Adman1

Doug,
So you think there will be no broadband content, no Music and Photos support? Literally, a closed HR10 with mpeg4?

That would be amazingly poor.


----------



## Doug Brott

Adman1 said:


> Doug,
> So you think there will be no broadband content, no Music and Photos support? Literally, a closed HR10 with mpeg4?
> 
> That would be amazingly poor.


There should be VOD, yes. Don't expect Netflix or any other "competitor" to DIRECTV though, you've gotta understand that at least even if you're in disagreement with it.

MediaShare (like) support? Don't know. If this is something that TiVo can easily shoe-horn in to the old platform, then perhaps. There will be a few new features. We know KidZone and Swivel Search are supposed to be there (I think) .. TiVo's style of MRV could be for TiVo-to-TiVo (although I don't expect it to).

Keep in mind that I believe the primary purpose of this box will be to entice the TiVo SD customers to move up to HD. For them, this will be the perfect box. It will work exactly like the SD TiVo (well close to exactly) except that it will support MPEG4 HD.

I expect there to be a relatively small upcharge ..

For many HD users here @ DBSTalk, the new TiVo will be neither Revolutionary or Evolutionary .. it will feel like a blast from the past. For SD users who haven't moved to HD .. It could be a comfort to have the same interface.

In the end, I think TiVo will do OK, but it won't be anything like the first time TiVo made it's way onto DIRECTV.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Adman1, I'm not Doug, but based on sources we have in common, that's precisely what I expect.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> HR10 + MPEG4 should be the expectation. Wanting more than that is reasonable .. expecting more than that is not.


But isn't it a bit cruel to ask people to only expect an HR10, at today's tech pace, it is almost like asking people to go back to live in a cave


----------



## ndole

jacmyoung said:


> But isn't it a bit cruel to ask people to *BUY* an HR10, at today's tech pace, it is almost like asking people to go back to live in a cave


Fixed it for ya


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> But isn't it a bit cruel to ask people to only expect an HR10, at today's tech pace, it is almost like asking people to go back to live in a cave


for mom and pop with SD it's an upgrade. simple upgrade. same interface but HD, for when they finally buy an HD set. very logical that they just might be happy. just might.


----------



## cypherx

Any chance they might "turn on" the HD UI down the road at some point? RCN didn't turn on the Tivo Premiere HDUI until just recently. They initially launched it with the old school SD UI.


----------



## codespy

Stuart Sweet said:


> Adman1, I'm not Doug, but based on sources we have in common, that's precisely what I expect.


............. Hmmm


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> Keep in mind that I believe the primary purpose of this box will be to entice the TiVo SD customers to move up to HD. For them, this will be the perfect box. It will work exactly like the SD TiVo (well close to exactly) except that it will support MPEG4 HD.


Doug, I Never Thought About It Like That!!! Great Post!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Keep in mind that I believe *the primary purpose of this box will be to entice the TiVo SD customers to move up to HD*. For them, this will be the perfect box. It will work exactly like the SD TiVo (well close to exactly) except that it will support MPEG4 HD.


...at least that was Ben Franklin's sales pitch when the project started...


----------



## Adman1

Stuart Sweet said:


> Adman1, I'm not Doug, but based on sources we have in common, that's precisely what I expect.


stuart, this would then be a big change over what had been planned, correct? tivo's plan was to make this a premium experience with an upcharge and significant financial upside (per subscriber) for tivo. i'm certain this had been communicated in some fashion or another. i'll have to find the quotes.

are your sources indicating that the original plan has changed?

wow, it's the same box they had in 2004 which wasn't even state of the art then (other than HD).


----------



## Syzygy

Adman1 said:


> ... wow, it's the same box they had in 2004 which wasn't even state of the art then (other than HD).


Maybe so, but the 2004 HD TiVo was more attractive to me than the 2011 HR2x is now, even with all the bells and whistles (and bugs) DirecTV has added to its own boxes. (Big exception: MRV!)


----------



## Davenlr

cypherx said:


> I don't think expecting anything more than the current half-assed premiere is unreasonable.


I dont think the Premier is half-assed. Its media share works, all its internet connectivity works, and contrary to popular opinion of most users on here, suggestions are a really nice addition. It has found suggestions I would never have known about. I would say a good 25% of what I watch, are suggestions it recorded for me. The HDGUI was a little sluggish with the stock drive, but I slipped a Seagate 2TB barracuda inside, and now I have no problems with speed...and the second core of the dual core processor isnt even being used yet.

I would love a premier that worked with DirecTv, even if they contractually had to strip out the internet access utilities like Pandora and Netflix, etc.


----------



## rayik

Is this the 3rd year there has been a DirecTV-HD-TIVO anticipation thread? Sure are some faithful people here to keep it going.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rayik said:


> Is this the 3rd year there has been a DirecTV-HD-TIVO anticipation thread? Sure are some faithful people here to keep it going.


Some people are hopeful and it can, at times, be an interesting discussion. 

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Adman1 said:


> stuart, this would then be a big change over what had been planned, correct? tivo's plan was to make this a premium experience with an upcharge and significant financial upside (per subscriber) for tivo. i'm certain this had been communicated in some fashion or another. i'll have to find the quotes.
> 
> are your sources indicating that the original plan has changed?
> 
> wow, it's the same box they had in 2004 which wasn't even state of the art then (other than HD).


I can't comment on the marketing strategy. My understanding is that this is the box that was planned all along. I know that certain statements were made in press releases, but I'm not aware that there was ever a plan to bring a Premiere-like experience to DIRECTV.


----------



## tonyd79

Stuart Sweet said:


> I can't comment on the marketing strategy. My understanding is that this is the box that was planned all along. I know that certain statements were made in press releases, but I'm not aware that there was ever a plan to bring a Premiere-like experience to DIRECTV.


My memory is not infallible but the only word I remember starting with "premi" used way back was that there would be a premium to use the DirecTivo. That, in itself, could lead people to think that it was a premium service.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, if they'd come out and said that people would pay more for essentially 2004 technology, we wouldn't have had three years of anticipation threads :lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doesn't the DirecTV TiVo announcement pre-date the TiVo Premier by about a year and a half?

Mike


----------



## bonscott87

Mike Bertelson said:


> Doesn't the DirecTV TiVo announcement pre-date the TiVo Premier by about a year and a half?
> 
> Mike


Yes and it was expected to ship long before the Premier did as well. So I doubt they originally planned to "premier" the Tivo Premier GUI (so to speak) on the DirecTivo. It was always planned to be not much more then an HR10-250 with MPEG4 and locked down tight.


----------



## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> I can't comment on the marketing strategy. My understanding is that this is the box that was planned all along. I know that certain statements were made in press releases, but I'm not aware that there was ever a plan to bring a Premiere-like experience to DIRECTV.


I am pretty sure that DirecTV's contractual requirement that the box only use DirecTV's servers for any internet services would make bringing a Premiere-like experience to the DirecTV a much more difficult task than it is for other TiVo MSO customers.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm not privy to the full contract but that does seem plausible.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> I am pretty sure that DirecTV's contractual requirement that the box only use DirecTV's servers for any internet services would make bringing a Premiere-like experience to the DirecTV a much more difficult task than it is for other TiVo MSO customers.


Or .. Since this is really to be an upgrade path for SD DIRECTV customers, perhaps GUI consistency was more important.


----------



## CuriousMark

TiVo has an abridged version posted on their investor website, it was an SEC filing document. I found the words in there, in a section that wasn't replaced with a [*]. It is entirely possible that one of the removed sections, behind one of those [*] symbols, could spell out different requirements. I am only going on the publicly available part.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Or .. Since this is really to be an upgrade path for SD DIRECTV customers, perhaps GUI consistency was more important.


You mean SD DirecTiVo subs? How many do you estimate exist now? I can't imagine non-TiVo DirecTV SD subs care.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes, I believe that's what he means. I'm not sure what you're driving at.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes, I believe that's what he means. I'm not sure what you're driving at.


Do we know or have an estimate how many SD DirecTiVo subs are still with DirecTV yet not upgraded to HD yet?


----------



## redhot

I'll start, I have 2 units. Still waiting for HD, both mine are almost dead.


----------



## codespy

My relatives have 5 DVR40's and 3 HR10's active.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tivo?....HR10?....hmmmm...


----------



## jacmyoung

redhot said:


> ...both mine are almost dead.


What do you mean?


----------



## bonscott87

jacmyoung said:


> Do we know or have an estimate how many SD DirecTiVo subs are still with DirecTV yet not upgraded to HD yet?


At the last Tivo investor quarter meeting the grand total Tivo subs including all cable, sat *and* their stand alones were at 2.3 million. Yes, it's that low and they keep losing 100K+ every quarter.

Now of that 2.3 million, 1.3 million are Tivo "owned" (stand alone) subscriptions.

Which leaves us at a cool 1 million for *ALL* MSOs including DirecTV. They don't split out Comcast, RCN, etc. from DirecTV so we can only speculate from there. I'd say maybe...750K DirecTivo subs left...if that...maybe closer to 500K. And it drops by over 50K every quarter. One thing though, this doesn't mean these subs don't also have HR2x equipment as well, these are just subs with DirecTivo's.

Every quarter Tivo delays the potential audience for this new product shrinks. Which is even more amazing why they keep delaying.

**Number from the 3rd quarter results in November 2010 so number above should be lower now. http://seekingalpha.com/article/238...earnings-call-transcript?source=qp_transcript

P.S. This is also why I laugh when I see some huge Tivo fans think they still rule the world. 2.3 million (and shrinking) out of 40-50 million DVR households is barely a tick on the radar anymore. Doesn't mean that Tivo isn't great or maybe even still the best, but the public just doesn't agree that it's worth paying more for and Tivo's market share keeps shrinking. The launch of the new HD DirecTivo isn't going to change that. Only way for Tivo to correct course is to make deals to be the *only* DVR a cable company proves thus they automatically get the market by default...like they did in the beginning. Problem is that so far they have screwed even that up. RCN may be the first time they haven't so perhaps they can save themselves that way. History has shown us that people won't pay more if they have the option though.


----------



## redhot

jacmyoung said:


> What do you mean?


One of the R-10 is almost always pixelated plus searching for satellite 2 message. The other one isn't to bad but freezes up a lot.


----------



## jacmyoung

redhot said:


> One of the R-10 is almost always pixelated plus searching for satellite 2 message. The other one isn't to bad but freezes up a lot.


I see, thanks.

Scott, I have always said, it is not necessarily TiVo screwed it up from a technical or marketing standpoint, rather the very long drawn out legal fight with Echostar had put the brakes on working together with big cable/DBS companies. They want the picture to clear first.


----------



## kymikes

jacmyoung said:


> I see, thanks.
> 
> Scott, I have always said, it is not necessarily TiVo screwed it up from a technical or marketing standpoint, rather the very long drawn out legal fight with Echostar had put the brakes on working together with big cable/DBS companies. *They want the picture to clear first*.


They may have waited far too long! I think the ship has sailed.


----------



## Caromsoft

jacmyoung said:


> Do we know or have an estimate how many SD DirecTiVo subs are still with DirecTV yet not upgraded to HD yet?


Put me down for 1, a SAT-T60.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

kymikes said:


> They may have waited far too long! I think the ship has sailed.


+1.

With all the great stuff being added to the HR series (Nomad and DAFI), I don't know if TiVo still has anything compelling enough to care anymore.


----------



## jacmyoung

kymikes said:


> They may have waited far too long! I think the ship has sailed.


When I said "they" I meant both TiVo and big cable/DBS. It takes two, or in this case maybe several to tango.


----------



## MikeS.

We own 2 HDVR2s, 1 is in use and the 2nd is a backup. It was recently refurbed by Weaknees. November I added HR24, our 1st HD box. I got sick and tired of waiting on a new D* Tivo. Tivo can go pound sand.

I like it, the hr24, a lot, the wife refuses to learn it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I've said it many times in the last (almost) 5 years, it's just a user interface. Learn it and move on


----------



## richman21

After years of waiting for the new Tivo, I gave up and got two HR24-500 with the MRV and now pleased with the speed of the HD DVR box. I upgraded from the HR22-100, hated it, slow, slow and more slow. The HR24's made a difference to get in the speed department. And the MRV is sweet.


----------



## redhot

Are the HR-24's as fast as my R-10's?


----------



## Doug Brott

I've never used an R10, but the HR24s are faster than the SAT-T60 (IMHO).


----------



## Scott Kocourek

redhot said:


> Are the HR-24's as fast as my R-10's?


When setting up series links and moving recording priorities you rarely if ever get the "please wait" and if you do it's so much faster.

When changing channels it is can be slower because of the MPEG4 decoding and the multiple satellite switching.

Overall I would say the HR24 is faster.


----------



## rainydave

I think the HR21-100 and -700 are faster than my R10 was. Nothing like waiting 5+ minutes whenever I re-orged my season pass list.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Oh yes, I remember those days. Although in fairness, later TiVo upgrades really sped that up, or so I'm told. My TiVo was retired in '07 I think it was. Maybe early '08. It was relegated to bedroom duty long before that.


----------



## redhot

If I can hold off till end of 1st quarter, I will get 2 HR24's, if there is no new news of the Directv Tivo's.


----------



## bobcamp1

rainydave said:


> I think the HR21-100 and -700 are faster than my R10 was. Nothing like waiting 5+ minutes whenever I re-orged my season pass list.


I never understood why the Tivo just couldn't relegate that task to a background task. I think it's checking to see if the reordering meant that it should be recording something right now. Whereas the HR2x just doesn't care.

The speed has improved somewhat in the newer Tivos, but is still too slow.

You can also reorganize their season passes using the web interface, and transfer a season pass to another DVR. Though this feature isn't perfect either.


----------



## Doug Brott

redhot said:


> If I can hold off till end of 1st quarter, I will get 2 HR24's, if there is no new news of the Directv Tivo's.


I think (barring yet another change) .. June/July is when we'll see this thing. But the target has moved so many times, I don't even trust my own words on the subject now. :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

bobcamp1 said:


> I never understood why the Tivo just couldn't relegate that task to a background task. I think it's checking to see if the reordering meant that it should be recording something right now. Whereas the HR2x just doesn't care.
> 
> The speed has improved somewhat in the newer Tivos, but is still too slow.
> 
> You can also reorganize their season passes using the web interface, and transfer a season pass to another DVR. Though this feature isn't perfect either.


Different philosophies. TiVo makes you wait. The HR2x tosses it to the background, freeing up the UI. Basically TiVo wants to have a clean conflict resolution before it lets you do anything else, so you have to wait. DIRECTV has chosen to let the scheduler be less stable and fix it during a post processing step. Neither really takes THAT long (a few minutes at most), but with TiVo you get to sit there unable to do anything for a few minutes - thus making changes more cumbersome.


----------



## redhot

Doug Brott said:


> Different philosophies. TiVo makes you wait. The HR2x tosses it to the background, freeing up the UI. Basically TiVo wants to have a clean conflict resolution before it lets you do anything else, so you have to wait. DIRECTV has chosen to let the scheduler be less stable and fix it during a post processing step. Neither really takes THAT long (a few minutes at most), but with TiVo you get to sit there unable to do anything for a few minutes - thus making changes more cumbersome.


Doug...........are you saying that the Directv Tivo SD Dvr's are slow?
At most I would have to wait maybe 3 seconds to do anything. It's fast and flawless. I have not had to call Dtv for anything in the past 4-5 years....this is way I'm afraid to upgrade to HD dvr's. Maybe I'm speed spoiled!


----------



## Doug Brott

redhot said:


> Doug...........are you saying that the Directv Tivo SD Dvr's are slow?
> At most I would have to wait maybe 3 seconds to do anything. It's fast and flawless. I have not had to call Dtv for anything in the past 4-5 years....this is way I'm afraid to upgrade to HD dvr's. Maybe I'm speed spoiled!


I'm saying waiting for the prioritizer list to shuffle is slow .. at least it was abysmally slow last time I used it (admittedly a long time back).


----------



## bonscott87

redhot said:


> Doug...........are you saying that the Directv Tivo SD Dvr's are slow?
> At most I would have to wait maybe 3 seconds to do anything. It's fast and flawless. I have not had to call Dtv for anything in the past 4-5 years....this is way I'm afraid to upgrade to HD dvr's. Maybe I'm speed spoiled!


The SD DirecTivo's are slow with some functions.

Reorder season passes....please wait for 5 minutes.
Creating a recording or season pass...please wait.
Even deleting a recording takes time.

All these are almost instantaneous on the HR series. After we got our first HR my wife refused to use the SD DirecTivo anymore. She couldn't understand why it takes so long to just delete something on it vs. instant on the HR for example.

I just don't get why people have put off HD for 5 years...but whatever.


----------



## bobcamp1

bonscott87 said:


> The SD DirecTivo's are slow with some functions.
> 
> Reorder season passes....please wait for 5 minutes.
> Creating a recording or season pass...please wait.
> Even deleting a recording takes time.
> 
> All these are almost instantaneous on the HR series. After we got our first HR my wife refused to use the SD DirecTivo anymore. She couldn't understand why it takes so long to just delete something on it vs. instant on the HR for example.
> 
> I just don't get why people have put off HD for 5 years...but whatever.


Reordering a season pass takes 2 minutes at most. I've never had a delay of more than 3 seconds creating or deleting a recording. Those are times for an ancient Series 1 stand-alone Tivo. I haven't used an SD DirecTivo in a long time, but I don't remember it taking that much longer.

In contrast, how long does an HR21 take to reboot vs. a Tivo? And where's the Tivo's red button? (Trick question -- I never have to reboot my Tivo).

I used an HR20 a year ago, and found it hideous. It simply failed to record shows properly. (For a while I had the Tivo controlling the HR20, and the Tivo didn't miss any shows.) That's the basic function of a DVR. And the responsiveness of the remote was non-existent. And the to-do list wasn't accurate! (How on Earth can the to do list be wrong? Which to do list is it actually using?)

I've been hoping the HR series would get better, but based on posts here it still has a few issues being a DVR. The HR24 seems like it's faster at least, so I'm willing to give it a shot. I am interested in the HD DirecTivo though, providing it's NOT like the Premiere.


----------



## sigma1914

bobcamp1 said:


> Reordering a season pass takes 2 minutes at most. I've never had a delay of more than 3 seconds creating or deleting a recording. Those are times for an ancient Series 1 stand-alone Tivo. I haven't used an SD DirecTivo in a long time, but I don't remember it taking that much longer.


2 minutes for a season pass is nuts. The HR2x takes 5 seconds.



> In contrast, how long does an HR21 take to reboot vs. a Tivo? And where's the Tivo's red button? (Trick question -- I never have to reboot my Tivo).


HR reboot is 4 minutes here. I call BS on never rebooting a Tivo. Tivo's locked up all the time requiring a power unplugging. I returned 4 Tivos in 2 years because they constantly failed.



> I used an HR20 a year ago, and found it hideous. It simply failed to record shows properly. (For a while I had the Tivo controlling the HR20, and the Tivo didn't miss any shows.) That's the basic function of a DVR. And the responsiveness of the remote was non-existent. And the to-do list wasn't accurate! (How on Earth can the to do list be wrong? Which to do list is it actually using?)


I've owned a HR20 & HR24 for about 4 years & only remember like 2 missed recordings, which was about 4 years ago.


----------



## Caromsoft

I suppose since I am one of the few here still running a series 1 DirecTivo, a SAT-T60 as my only DVR I can chime in here.

Reordering Season Passes takes a LONG time, it's true.

Creating a Season Pass can take from 30 seconds to a minute, depending on whether there are going to be any conflicts. I know right away because if there isn't a conflict the "Please Wait" icon will flash once almost immediately.



sigma1914 said:


> 2 minutes for a season pass is nuts. The HR2x takes 5 seconds.


At the end of that 5 seconds does the HR2x tell you what episodes of your new season pass will NOT be recorded because of a conflict with something higher on the list? Or are you in the dark until the episode is missed? My Tivo lets me know so I can adjust my Season Pass accordingly.

Deleting a recording is very fast, but there is a short delay.

I started coming here because the T60 is showing its age and we are starting to make the transition to HD. I really like the Tivo but realize that time marches on and perhaps the HR's are better. At this point I am willing to wait until the new DirecTivo comes out to make a decision.



bonscott87 said:


> I just don't get why people have put off HD for 5 years...but whatever.


In our case we "put off" HD in order to save up for a down payment on a house.


----------



## Doug Brott

Caromsoft said:


> At the end of that 5 seconds does the HR2x tell you what episodes of your new season pass will NOT be recorded because of a conflict with something higher on the list? Or are you in the dark until the episode is missed? My Tivo lets me know so I can adjust my Season Pass accordingly.


Yes, this will let you know immediately if there is a conflict.



> In our case we "put off" HD in order to save up for a down payment on a house.


This is a very good reason for waiting ..


----------



## bonscott87

Caromsoft said:


> At the end of that 5 seconds does the HR2x tell you what episodes of your new season pass will NOT be recorded because of a conflict with something higher on the list? Or are you in the dark until the episode is missed? My Tivo lets me know so I can adjust my Season Pass accordingly.


Yes. In fact if there is a triple conflict you get to choose which of the 3 you don't want to record.



> In our case we "put off" HD in order to save up for a down payment on a house.


I should clarify that my comment was directed toward the people who would have upgraded to HD or have had an HDTV for a long while now but have not gotten an HD receiver simply because it's not a Tivo. All that time suffering with SD seems a bit silly to me. At the very least enjoy HD while you wait for an HD Tivo unit to arrive, if it ever does.


----------



## bonscott87

bobcamp1 said:


> Reordering a season pass takes 2 minutes at most. I've never had a delay of more than 3 seconds creating or deleting a recording. Those are times for an ancient Series 1 stand-alone Tivo. I haven't used an SD DirecTivo in a long time, but I don't remember it taking that much longer.


In terms of time setting up a recording I'm more referring to screen after screen of confirmations. Just record the dang thing already! On the HR and many other DVRs it's one button click and you're done. Same with deletions and this was one my wife hated. Just delete it already. The last DirecTivo we had was the R10 which I believe was the last model they made and deleting something took well over 30 seconds between the screens of confirmations and "please wait". Wife made me unhook it after we got the HR20 and she saw how easy and quick it was.



> In contrast, how long does an HR21 take to reboot vs. a Tivo? And where's the Tivo's red button? (Trick question -- I never have to reboot my Tivo).


Maybe 4-5 minutes? Never rebooted a DirecTivo? Please. I owned several over many years and they all required a reboot at least once a month to speed them up let alone when it would crash.



> I used an HR20 a year ago, and found it hideous. It simply failed to record shows properly. (For a while I had the Tivo controlling the HR20, and the Tivo didn't miss any shows.) That's the basic function of a DVR. And the responsiveness of the remote was non-existent. And the to-do list wasn't accurate! (How on Earth can the to do list be wrong? Which to do list is it actually using?)


In the 4 years I had an HR20 it only missed a recording once that wasn't guide data or user error and that was during a CE testing cycle. I remember my DirecTivo failing to record for an entire weekend, missing several shows (none of which were online of course at the time) which prompted me to get a second DirecTivo simply for a backup. Also once on an R10 had a failure that wiped out all my recorded programs. Lost an entire season of Buffy due to that one. Did they fail all the time? Of course not. But they sure did fail to record from time to time and did a lot more then either my HR20 or HR21 ever did.

But hey, we all have different experiences. But Tivo never was and still isn't perfect as some seem to want to paint it as.


----------



## Caromsoft

bonscott87 said:


> Yes. In fact if there is a triple conflict you get to choose which of the 3 you don't want to record.


I have to say that the way the Tivo handles the conflicts is the single most annoying thing about the system, at least on my T60. It always gives me the wrong choice on which show not to record, requiring me to go into the To Do List and manually do my own conflict resolution!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Nice to see some balance in this thread.


----------



## redhot

My R10's must be super fast. Scheduling a season pass only takes several seconds, nothing is slow about my R10's.


----------



## tonyd79

bobcamp1 said:


> In contrast, how long does an HR21 take to reboot vs. a Tivo? And where's the Tivo's red button? (Trick question -- I never have to reboot my Tivo).


Your Tivo is named Chuck Norris?

Seriously, I had to reboot my Tivos often enough. Especially my HD Tivo (which is more relevant than an old SD DirecTivo since it runs newer software and does HD). I made sure the plug was easy enough to find in the back of my home theater setup so I could do so.

One of the design FLAWS of Tivo is that there is no reboot. Every device in the world should have a way to reboot/turn off. Whenever someone says "our device/software needs no remedial methods like reboot/restart" it means that the designers/programmers are just arrogant.


----------



## JBernardK

tonyd79 said:


> Your Tivo is named Chuck Norris?
> 
> Seriously, I had to reboot my Tivos often enough. Especially my HD Tivo (which is more relevant than an old SD DirecTivo since it runs newer software and does HD). I made sure the plug was easy enough to find in the back of my home theater setup so I could do so.
> 
> One of the design FLAWS of Tivo is that there is no reboot. Every device in the world should have a way to reboot/turn off. Whenever someone says "our device/software needs no remedial methods like reboot/restart" it means that the designers/programmers are just arrogant.


There is a menu item that can be selected to reboot the TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> There is a menu item that can be selected to reboot the TiVo.


Unless of course it locks up :grin:


----------



## bobcamp1

JBernardK said:


> There is a menu item that can be selected to reboot the TiVo.


There is on the HR2x as well. But there is also a red button since the HR20s frequently locked up completely, or had issues that a soft reset didn't resolve.

I realize that everyone has had different experiences. And everyone has different needs. I don't rearrange my season pass list on a daily basis, so the delay there doesn't bother me. What is nice is that I have had 60 season passes on one unit. Suggestions for me have been hit or miss, but you can disable them and at least look at the list manually. Swivel search is OK -- Kidzone is also nice. The recycle bin is a lifesaver. And you can program advanced Wishlists without having an engineering degree.

I'm actually hoping that the HD DirecTivo is based on the Series 3 GUI, as I don't like the Premiere GUI that much.


----------



## bobcamp1

Caromsoft said:


> I have to say that the way the Tivo handles the conflicts is the single most annoying thing about the system, at least on my T60. It always gives me the wrong choice on which show not to record, requiring me to go into the To Do List and manually do my own conflict resolution!


Well, it's going to either put the new season pass on the top of your season pass list or at the bottom, depending on where you tell it to put it. The Tivo does not have ESP. If you don't want it there, or you are having lots of conflicts, edit the season pass list.

At least the to do list on a Tivo is accurate. I can't tell you how many times the HR20 didn't record a show on the list or recorded a show that was not on the list.


----------



## bobcamp1

bonscott87 said:


> In the 4 years I had an HR20 it only missed a recording once that wasn't guide data or user error and that was during a CE testing cycle.


Wow, my HR20 missed 5 recordings in one week. It wasn't Tribune's fault because the Tivo driving the H20-600 recorded all of them. I had the HR20 replaced three times -- the first one missed 2 recordings in 2 days, the second one appeared to have a hard drive problem, and the third locked up every 24 hours. At that point, I deleted everything in the HR20 and let the Tivo drive it instead. The Tivo had no problems. So I sent back the HR20 and got an H20 for it instead. That worked great right up until the H20 died last week. The 10 year old Tivo is still going. And no, I have never had to reboot it.

I live in an MPEG4 locals market, so I get HD equipment even though all my TVs are SD. Hopefully that will change next month.


----------



## bonscott87

bobcamp1 said:


> Wow, my HR20 missed 5 recordings in one week. It wasn't Tribune's fault because the Tivo driving the H20-600 recorded all of them. I had the HR20 replaced three times -- the first one missed 2 recordings in 2 days, the second one appeared to have a hard drive problem, and the third locked up every 24 hours. At that point, I deleted everything in the HR20 and let the Tivo drive it instead. The Tivo had no problems. So I sent back the HR20 and got an H20 for it instead. That worked great right up until the H20 dies last week. The 10 year old Tivo is still going.


Sorry to hear that. I'm serious in that my HR20 with 40+ season passes and a couple autorecord searches for sports never missed anything over 4 years. Had an HR21 for 3 years and it also never missed anything. Neither one ever crashed other then the couple times when guide data was messed up and that effected all receivers, not just the HR line.

I of course have neither now but my Windows 7 Media Center has never missed a recording either in over a year.  P.S. WMC blows both Tivo and DirecTV away.


----------



## DogLover

"bobcamp1" said:


> There is on the HR2x as well. But there is also a red button since the HR20s frequently locked up completely, or had issues that a soft reset didn't resolve.
> ...


You don't really think that they planned to have more lockups, and designed a red button into the hardware design??

Don't you think it is more likely that they knew the Tivos sometimes locked up, assumed that the HRs would, too, and designed a better way to reboot than pulling the plug.


----------



## DogLover

"bobcamp1" said:


> Well, it's going to either put the new season pass on the top of your season pass list or at the bottom, depending on where you tell it to put it. The Tivo does not have ESP. If you don't want it there, or you are having lots of conflicts, edit the season pass list.
> 
> At least the to do list on a Tivo is accurate. I can't tell you how many times the HR20 didn't record a show on the list or recorded a show that was not on the list.


I imagine that Caromsoft is talking about when an episode conflicts, because two other things are recording. The Directivos (at least my T60) would only give you a choice of the lowest priority to cancel. The HRs allow you to cancel either conflicting show.


----------



## codespy

bobcamp1 said:


> There is on the HR2x as well. But there is also a red button since the HR20s frequently locked up completely, or had issues that a soft reset didn't resolve...........


TiVo R10's have a red button too, don't forget.


----------



## Doug Brott

bobcamp1 said:


> I'm actually hoping that the HD DirecTivo is based on the Series 3 GUI, as I don't like the Premiere GUI that much.


The new DIRECTV TiVo will definitely have the classic interface. It will not make use of the Premiere GUI or be in HD. So, for this you should be quite happy.

Again, think of it as an HR10 (or even the SD DIRECTV TiVo) with MPEG4 (and HD) support. Both Swivel Search and Kidzone are supposed to be included, but don't expect many feature additions beyond that.


----------



## Davenlr

The Premier HD GUI is ok *if* you replace the stock drive with a faster drive with more cache memory on it (it almost doubled the speed of my GUI). That said, only about half the GUI is HD, and it often jumps back to the SD GUI for many menus. So, given that, I consider it a beta project. Im pretty sure DirecTv would go crazy if Tivo tried to use it now on the new DirecTv DVR.


----------



## wingrider01

bobcamp1 said:


> In contrast, how long does an HR21 take to reboot vs. a Tivo? And where's the Tivo's red button? (Trick question -- I never have to reboot my Tivo).


Yes it does - TIVO calls it pulling the electrical plug out of the wall socket. Which I had to do frequently on the replaced HR10's and SD units and the oHR10 I still have in the garage that locks up frequently


----------



## CuriousMark

DogLover said:


> You don't really think that they planned to have more lockups, and designed a red button into the hardware design??
> 
> Don't you think it is more likely that they knew the Tivos sometimes locked up, assumed that the HRs would, too, and designed a better way to reboot than pulling the plug.


That makes sense to me. However, there are times when even an RBR might not solve a problem. I can imagine peripheral hardware getting in a jam and only being resettable by removing power. So even with a red button, I expect there may be times when pulling the plug is still the only answer. I imagine such cases will be even less frequent than the occasional RBR, but it most likely still happens occasionally.


----------



## Caromsoft

DogLover said:


> I imagine that Caromsoft is talking about when an episode conflicts, because two other things are recording. The Directivos (at least my T60) would only give you a choice of the lowest priority to cancel.


You are correct.


----------



## inkahauts

bobcamp1 said:


> There is on the HR2x as well. But there is also a red button since the HR20s frequently locked up completely, or had issues that a soft reset didn't resolve.
> 
> I realize that everyone has had different experiences. And everyone has different needs. I don't rearrange my season pass list on a daily basis, so the delay there doesn't bother me. What is nice is that I have had 60 season passes on one unit. Suggestions for me have been hit or miss, but you can disable them and at least look at the list manually. Swivel search is OK -- Kidzone is also nice. The recycle bin is a lifesaver. And you can program advanced Wishlists without having an engineering degree.
> 
> I'm actually hoping that the HD DirecTivo is based on the Series 3 GUI, as I don't like the Premiere GUI that much.


Guess no one should buy any electronics then, because over half of all electronics have a reset button of some sort, or are told to unplug to reset it if it locks up. Thats how hardware is built.. And whats easier to tell a customer to do, unplug it or hit a button?

Not once in my life was I ever able to get any advanced wishlist of any kind to properly record all my sports games.. It may not be super easy to program a hr to do it for most people (its real simple to me, but I get how many others would have trouble with its current implementation) but its better than a freaking tivo.. One of the 2 main reasons I don't like tivos...

I think the cast and crew info on the HR's is excellent.. Its a swivel search in a way as it is...

Recycle bin, the main thing I like about tivo over the hr's.. Shame they haven't got it on the HR's...



bobcamp1 said:


> Well, it's going to either put the new season pass on the top of your season pass list or at the bottom, depending on where you tell it to put it. The Tivo does not have ESP. If you don't want it there, or you are having lots of conflicts, edit the season pass list.
> 
> At least the to do list on a Tivo is accurate. I can't tell you how many times the HR20 didn't record a show on the list or recorded a show that was not on the list.


Ah, The hr's ask you which one to cancel, rather than assuming like a tivo that you'd only consider canceling the lower priority.. Tivos number one problem... They treat you like a kid for everything, or make you do it the hard way...

I don't care one bit about the to do list.. Mine is generally accurate, (I hardly ever look at it, if ever on some of my units,) but even if its not, it has always actually recorded everything that it should be. I think its all about how it searches guide data and when it searches guide data... The key is it looks at guide data right before the hour, and half hour just before it actually records something, so it catches recordings then, based on the last guide data.. ( I actually think thats how the tivo works as well, only they constantly update the to todo list, which is part of the reason it is so slow) My old replaytv, the best dvr I have ever used hands down by far, and way ahead of its time for many features, didn't even have a to do list.. And it didn't need one either... And frankly, I don't think the HRs or tivos need one either...



bobcamp1 said:


> Wow, my HR20 missed 5 recordings in one week. It wasn't Tribune's fault because the Tivo driving the H20-600 recorded all of them. I had the HR20 replaced three times -- the first one missed 2 recordings in 2 days, the second one appeared to have a hard drive problem, and the third locked up every 24 hours. At that point, I deleted everything in the HR20 and let the Tivo drive it instead. The Tivo had no problems. So I sent back the HR20 and got an H20 for it instead. That worked great right up until the H20 died last week. The 10 year old Tivo is still going. And no, I have never had to reboot it.
> 
> I live in an MPEG4 locals market, so I get HD equipment even though all my TVs are SD. Hopefully that will change next month.


I have 7 HR's.. Haven't missed a recording in more than 2 years... I truly believe that anyone having that kind of missed recordings issues today has a faulty (hardware wise) system, be it either the HR or the infrastructure.... Otherwise, I or any one of the many people I know that have hr's would be complaining to me about missed recordings on a regular basis...


----------



## KoRn

The worst and most broke cable company is getting Tivo before Directv. I never would of thought or guessed. Tis sad. Directv you have dropped the ball beyond belief with this. The company in question is Charter. I still wont go back to them for tv and will keep Directv.


----------



## bobcamp1

inkahauts said:


> Guess no one should buy any electronics then, because over half of all electronics have a reset button of some sort, or are told to unplug to reset it if it locks up. Thats how hardware is built.. And whats easier to tell a customer to do, unplug it or hit a button?
> 
> Ah, The hr's ask you which one to cancel, rather than assuming like a tivo that you'd only consider canceling the lower priority.. Tivos number one problem... They treat you like a kid for everything, or make you do it the hard way...
> 
> I have 7 HR's.. Haven't missed a recording in more than 2 years... I truly believe that anyone having that kind of missed recordings issues today has a faulty (hardware wise) system, be it either the HR or the infrastructure.... Otherwise, I or any one of the many people I know that have hr's would be complaining to me about missed recordings on a regular basis...


You're not going to believe this, but telling them to unplug it is easier than having them find the reset button. I'm looking at my notebook PC and my cell phone, and they don't have one. The reason for that is that people either can't find it, or are accidentally hitting it. Another reason is that marketing believes that having one is admitting your product is a POS. I've had two meetings where the topic of conversation was the inclusion or removal of a reset button. It was like I was in a Dilbert cartoon (both times, the decision was to exclude it).

I'm having difficulty remembering and understanding the whole "assuming like a tivo that you'd only consider canceling the lower priority." Could you explain that further? My initial reaction is that of course I want to cancel the lower priority one -- that's why it's lower priority.

As far as hardware problems go, based on the threads in this forum I'd now tend to agree with you. But HR2xs do occasionally still miss an recording, or have the "zero second" recording, or have all the recordings vanish after a software upgrade. Part of my problem was that I had FOUR HR20s, and all but one seemed to have a hardware problem. That didn't exactly instill confidence in me. I know that Tivo has some defective units too, but D* seems to have more. Maybe it's because D*'s system is more complicated, or the HR2xs are handled much more which is not good for their hard drives.


----------



## bobcamp1

Doug Brott said:


> The new DIRECTV TiVo will definitely have the classic interface. It will not make use of the Premiere GUI or be in HD. So, for this you should be quite happy.
> 
> Again, think of it as an HR10 (or even the SD DIRECTV TiVo) with MPEG4 (and HD) support. Both Swivel Search and Kidzone are supposed to be included, but don't expect many feature additions beyond that.


Can you say which remote it comes with? My wife and I hate the DirecTV remote and love the peanut-shaped Tivo remote.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bobcamp1 said:


> Can you say which remote it comes with? My wife and I hate the DirecTV remote and love the peanut-shaped Tivo remote.


We've been hearing the peanut will make a return engagement on the new unit...


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We've been hearing the peanut will make a return engagement on the new unit...


Will it be the one with the keyboard?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ATARI said:


> Will it be the one with the keyboard?


IIRC, the new TiVo QWERTY remote is Bluetooth, and since the DIRECTV HD Receiver with TiVo is based on the HR platform I'd guess not.

Mike


----------



## bonscott87

KoRn said:


> The worst and most broke cable company is getting Tivo before Directv. I never would of thought or guessed. Tis sad. Directv you have dropped the ball beyond belief with this. The company in question is Charter.


And why would you say that? All Tivo did was announce that it will be available "later this year" on Charter. LOL. Hmmmm, sound familiar?

And how about that Tivo/Cox cable announcement 5 years ago that still hasn't happened and then they announced it yet again last year and still nothing.

How about Tivo/Comcast that was announced 5+ years ago and has gone nowhere outside of a couple test markets and now appears to be a dead product.

Hmmmm...sound familiar yet again?

Let's see what is the common thread here in all these announcements and delays. Oh yea....Tivo.

Not sure how you can even think of blaming DirecTV on this one but do what you must.


----------



## Doug Brott

bobcamp1 said:


> Can you say which remote it comes with? My wife and I hate the DirecTV remote and love the peanut-shaped Tivo remote.


I hate the peanut myself .. but .. The peanut will be making a comeback with the DIRECTV TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

KoRn said:


> The worst and most broke cable company is getting Tivo before Directv. I never would of thought or guessed. Tis sad. Directv you have dropped the ball beyond belief with this. The company in question is Charter. I still wont go back to them for tv and will keep Directv.


Except for the fact that it's TiVo that makes the TiVo .. but why let that little detail get in the way :grin:

The hardware will be the HR22-100 (I think dubbed THR22-100). This hardware was available to TiVo the day that the announcement was made in September 2008. DIRECTV did their part long ago so that TiVo firmware could be loaded into the flash of the HR22-100. The waiting has been .. waiting on TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> Will it be the one with the keyboard?


No


----------



## Doug Brott

bonscott87 said:


> And why would you say that? All Tivo did was announce that it will be available "later this year" on Charter. LOL. Hmmmm, sound familiar?


Oh .. if that's the announcement .. TiVo said that about the DIRECTV TiVo in early 2010 (meaning we should have already seen it). The DIRECTV TiVo is still a year ahead of the Charter TiVo


----------



## DogLover

bobcamp1 said:


> You're not going to believe this, but telling them to unplug it is easier than having them find the reset button. I'm looking at my notebook PC and my cell phone, and they don't have one. The reason for that is that people either can't find it, or are accidentally hitting it. Another reason is that marketing believes that having one is admitting your product is a POS. I've had two meetings where the topic of conversation was the inclusion or removal of a reset button. It was like I was in a Dilbert cartoon (both times, the decision was to exclude it).


Every PC and laptop I've had for the past dozen years has had the ability, though not as a separate button. If you hold the power button for several seconds, it forces a power off. You then press then power button again for it to power back on. For any electronic item that has a hard drive, it seems prudent to build in as many of the "softer" ways of rebooting as possible. Relying on the power cord seems to be taking an unnecessary risk.

While not everyone obviously experienced lockups with their DirecTivo, there must have been enough of them that DirecTV felt the need to put a red button when they developed their hardware.



bobcamp1 said:


> I'm having difficulty remembering and understanding the whole "assuming like a tivo that you'd only consider canceling the lower priority." Could you explain that further? My initial reaction is that of course I want to cancel the lower priority one -- that's why it's lower priority.


That's what Tivo assumes as well. However, it just not always the case. For me, it may be because both conflicting shows are relatively low priority, and I haven't taken the time to put them in an exact order. It also may be that the higher priority recording is from a wishlist, and is a show that I've already seen. This could easily happen for a wishlist based on an actor. The wishlist might be high priority, because I want to catch the movies, but the one that is conflicting is one I've seen, so I want to cancel that particular movie rather than the lower priority show that I have not yet seen.

These are just two examples that I ran into with Tivo. I really like the fact that the HR series let's me choose either one.



bobcamp1 said:


> As far as hardware problems go, based on the threads in this forum I'd now tend to agree with you. But HR2xs do occasionally still miss an recording, or have the "zero second" recording, or have all the recordings vanish after a software upgrade. Part of my problem was that I had FOUR HR20s, and all but one seemed to have a hardware problem. That didn't exactly instill confidence in me. I know that Tivo has some defective units too, but D* seems to have more. Maybe it's because D*'s system is more complicated, or the HR2xs are handled much more which is not good for their hard drives.


Yes, there are the occasional missed or zero second recording. The zero second recordings are 99% of the time hardware (and often not the DVR hardware).

It does seem unusual that you received 4 DVRs that had hardware problems. My first reaction would be there had to be something elsewhere in your set up that was bad that was either causing the errors directly, or were causing the DVRs to go bad. And I would think the same thing if someone had 4 bad Tivos in a row. It's just statistically improbable (though not impossible) that there wasn't another problem as well.

It's really hard to judge real failure rates without internal information from DirecTV and Tivo. However, there is certainly many places between manufacturer to DirecTV to installation contractors (or retailers) to customers where damage could occur.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> I hate the peanut myself .. but .. The peanut will be making a comeback with the DIRECTV TiVo.


It is most likely going to be the new peanut with the color coded buttons added.


----------



## CuriousMark

Here we go again


bonscott87 said:


> And why would you say that? All Tivo did was announce that it will be available "later this year" on Charter. LOL. Hmmmm, sound familiar?
> 
> And how about that Tivo/Cox cable announcement 5 years ago that still hasn't happened and then they announced it yet again last year and still nothing.


The new announcement was for something different than the old announcement and said the old plan had been canceled. Cox saw the failure of the Comcast plan and decided to go a new direction with TiVo. It is all in the Cox announcement if you read it.



> How about Tivo/Comcast that was announced 5+ years ago and has gone nowhere outside of a couple test markets and now appears to be a dead product.


Comcast has announced that instead of expanding that plan which even they consider a failure, that they would go back and redesign the middleware for Tru2way from the ground up and try again with a full tru2way deployment. NDS is STILL rewriting Ocap.

Hmmmm...sound familiar yet again?

Let's see what is the common thread here in all these announcements and delays. Oh yea....Tivo.

Not sure how you can even think of blaming DirecTV on this one but do what you must.[/QUOTE]
I know you want to blame TiVo solely for every delay out there, but your premise just doesn't hold water.

Oh yes, no delay with Virgin, RCN and a variety of smaller cable companies, did you forget them?

As far as DirecTV is concerned, yes I agree this is mostly a TiVo Delay, but I see it as being because neither TiVo nor DirecTV really care about this anymore and TiVo is deploying its resources where there is real money to be made.


----------



## tonyd79

bobcamp1 said:


> I'm having difficulty remembering and understanding the whole "assuming like a tivo that you'd only consider canceling the lower priority." Could you explain that further? My initial reaction is that of course I want to cancel the lower priority one -- that's why it's lower priority.


Uh, no. It could have just been put in later in the list. I do not force prioritize every show I ever watch. I only worry about priority on really important shows and/or ones I know I will have consistent conflicts with.

Wonderful, though, that the Tivo assumes it knows better than you on what you want to do. Nice of them. Did I mention arrogant software/programmers at any time?


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> It is most likely going to be the new peanut with the color coded buttons added.


Yes it is.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> As far as DirecTV is concerned, yes I agree this is mostly a TiVo Delay, but I see it as being because neither TiVo nor DirecTV really care about this anymore and TiVo is deploying its resources where there is real money to be made.


This probably makes the most sense .. Neither side really cares ..


----------



## bonscott87

CuriousMark said:


> As far as DirecTV is concerned, yes I agree this is mostly a TiVo Delay, but I see it as being because neither TiVo nor DirecTV really care about this anymore and TiVo is deploying its resources where there is real money to be made.


Honestly at this point I am in agreement with this that neither side cares anymore. DirecTV never cared in the first place and Tivo knows that too much time has passed and the opportunity to make a splash is lost so even they don't care anymore. Maybe Tivo is simply delaying it long enough for their smaller cable company deals to roll out enough to make them money and then they can dump the DirecTV box and Wall Street won't ding them as much on it.


----------



## Caromsoft

bobcamp1 said:


> I'm having difficulty remembering and understanding the whole "assuming like a tivo that you'd only consider canceling the lower priority." Could you explain that further? My initial reaction is that of course I want to cancel the lower priority one -- that's why it's lower priority.


Here is one example.

Higher on the list = less or one chance to record.
Lower on the list = lots of chances to record.

The lower one might be more important to me, but I know it will be showing 20 times during the week. Project Runway shows many times for example, vs. Survivor which only shows once.

Another example is if I have a conflict between two programs that only record once, but the higher one is a repeat and the lower one first run.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Wondering out loud if the latest legal maneuvering and court decision between TiVo and Dish will result in yet further delays...or even killing the project.

The neverending story of patent debates in the courts can't help matters.

:shrug:


----------



## bobcamp1

DogLover said:


> Every PC and laptop I've had for the past dozen years has had the ability, though not as a separate button.
> 
> That's what Tivo assumes as well. However, it just not always the case. For me, it may be because both conflicting shows are relatively low priority, and I haven't taken the time to put them in an exact order. It also may be that the higher priority recording is from a wishlist, and is a show that I've already seen. This could easily happen for a wishlist based on an actor. The wishlist might be high priority, because I want to catch the movies, but the one that is conflicting is one I've seen, so I want to cancel that particular movie rather than the lower priority show that I have not yet seen.
> 
> These are just two examples that I ran into with Tivo. I really like the fact that the HR series let's me choose either one.
> 
> It does seem unusual that you received 4 DVRs that had hardware problems. My first reaction would be there had to be something elsewhere in your set up that was bad that was either causing the errors directly, or were causing the DVRs to go bad. And I would think the same thing if someone had 4 bad Tivos in a row. It's just statistically improbable (though not impossible) that there wasn't another problem as well.
> 
> It's really hard to judge real failure rates without internal information from DirecTV and Tivo. However, there is certainly many places between manufacturer to DirecTV to installation contractors (or retailers) to customers where damage could occur.


On the reset button, you proved my point. PCs don't have them anymore. That's "hold down for 4 seconds" is not a reset, that's emergency power down, and is just like removing the battery or pulling the plug. That function is not even labeled. It's not arrogance to remove a reset button -- it's a sign of how stable you want your customers to think your product is.

Plus, the only thing being stressed by pulling the plug and plugging back in is the power supply. The hard drive file system in a DVR should be journaled anyway, so you can pull the plug anytime. Tivo's is definitely journaled, and I hope the HR2x's is too.

As far as the "two low priority" scenario, if you haven't had time to put things in order, whose fault is that? The Tivo does not have ESP. I agree that an option that says, "create the season pass and enter the season pass manager" would be a nice feature. But in those cases I just push <Tivo>-<1> and there I am.

For the occasional "this one time make it higher priority" scenario, all recordings set to record from the guide have highest priority. Everything in the season pass manager should be prioritized. You can set your wishlist not to autorecord everything, and then go pick and choose which movies you want recorded. Or you can select the show you really want to record manually, thus making it the highest priority for that one time. I'd think it would be confusing to have a to do list that you couldn't directly trace to the season pass manager or individual show recordings, especially if the DVR is shared. Some have said you don't need a to do list -- this discussion contradicts that.

To be honest, conflicts were rare when using the one-tuner Series 1, and non-existent when using the Series 2, even with my 60+ season passes. But I'll admit that I was lucky.

As far as my 4 bad DVR scenario, my setup is simple. SL3 with one cable going to receiver in bedroom, two cables going to living room. A ground block is in between. All cables worked with an H20-600 and continue to work with an H24. No LOS issues. I've had four bad refurbished DVRs and one bad refurbished H20-600 (I now have two new H24s and have no problems). Perhaps that is the issue -- D* doesn't really refurbish anything, they just give it to another customer and hope they don't notice the problem. Refurbishing doesn't happen as much with Tivos, since they are mostly owned and bought brand new.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bobcamp1 said:


> On the reset button, you proved my point. PCs don't have them anymore. That's "hold down for 4 seconds" is not a reset, that's emergency power down, and is just like removing the battery or pulling the plug. That function is not even labeled. It's not arrogance to remove a reset button -- it's a sign of how stable you want your customers to think your product is.


Horrible example.

The #1 reason why it was removed, IMHO... is because it was easily touched/pressed, and immediately rebooted a computer... no warning, no anything.

The #2 reason, in most cases (and probably more so today), is the same as a power down (which typically clear more issues, because of power latency in some of the components).... the hold down of the power button serves the same purpose... as is by far less accidentally performed.

It has ZERO to do with customer perception on how stable it is.
Even the beloved MAC has this feature, and I have used it often enough (since there is no easy way to pull the battery from a modern MacBook)



bobcamp1 said:


> Plus, the only thing being stressed by pulling the plug and plugging back in is the power supply. The hard drive file system in a DVR should be journaled anyway, so you can pull the plug anytime. Tivo's is definitely journaled, and I hope the HR2x's is too.


Not true either... the physical hard drive can also be damaged, and as shown many times over... the hard drive typically is stressed the most at start up/spin up time.



bobcamp1 said:


> To be honest, conflicts were rare when using the one-tuner Series 1, and non-existent when using the Series 2, even with my 60+ season passes. But I'll admit that I was lucky.


You are most certainly lucky, that with 60 passes, you don't have many conflicts with 2 tuners.

Before MRV, I had conflicts at least two times a week, with 5+ things trying to record at one time... (Not an issue anymore, since the 6 DVRs can talk to one another, I just schedule the 4 major networks on two of the DVRs, and the fringe recordings go to other systems when necessary)


----------



## Doug Brott

bobcamp1 said:


> On the reset button, you proved my point. PCs don't have them anymore. That's "hold down for 4 seconds" is not a reset, that's emergency power down, and is just like removing the battery or pulling the plug. That function is not even labeled. It's not arrogance to remove a reset button -- it's a sign of how stable you want your customers to think your product is.
> 
> Plus, the only thing being stressed by pulling the plug and plugging back in is the power supply. The hard drive file system in a DVR should be journaled anyway, so you can pull the plug anytime. Tivo's is definitely journaled, and I hope the HR2x's is too.


What!? Pressing and holding a power button that is on the front of a PC is the same thing as digging under your desk behind the PC to find the power cord? Come on. Even though it's a power-off function vs. a reset, that is not the real point. The real point is that you don't have to go to so much effort to cycle the box so that it starts responding again. People don't want to have to go behind their set top boxes for this. A push & hold to off button or a red button reset works just as well.



> As far as the "two low priority" scenario, if you haven't had time to put things in order, whose fault is that? The Tivo does not have ESP. I agree that an option that says, "create the season pass and enter the season pass manager" would be a nice feature. But in those cases I just push <Tivo>-<1> and there I am.


The HR2x doesn't have ESP either .. which is why it's nice it lets you choose the one (of the three) to keep when you add a new item.


----------



## bobcamp1

Caromsoft said:


> Here is one example.
> 
> Higher on the list = less or one chance to record.
> Lower on the list = lots of chances to record.
> 
> The lower one might be more important to me, but I know it will be showing 20 times during the week. Project Runway shows many times for example, vs. Survivor which only shows once.
> 
> Another example is if I have a conflict between two programs that only record once, but the higher one is a repeat and the lower one first run.


If the lower one is more important to you, put it higher in the priority list. Also, make sure you have you season pass set to "first run only" to minimize conflicts.

A trick that Tivo users use is to have TWO season passes for the same show. The higher one is set to "first run" and keep until I delete (which actually works in a Tivo), and the lower pass records everything but only holds 3 or 4 shows. You don't have to do that for every show -- just the ones you have problems with. Since a Tivo has no season pass limit, there aren't any issues. I have had to do that only once in the past, but don't have to anymore. My DVR considers "first run" in a 28 day window, and records the new episode when it is rebroadcast later that night. For most non-network shows, that happens a few hours later at the most.


----------



## bobcamp1

Earl Bonovich said:


> It has ZERO to do with customer perception on how stable it is.
> Even the beloved MAC has this feature, and I have used it often enough (since there is no easy way to pull the battery from a modern MacBook)


Could you please tell my marketing people that? :grin: I agree with your other two reasons (well... not the hard drive so much), but the main reason that keeps it out of products I'm involved with ends up being customer perception.

I think D* has it right -- hide it under a panel you have to swing open, and make it tiny. No one knows it's there until customer support tells them it's there. The S1 and S2 had no need for such a panel, so they didn't have a panel. Actually, they had NO buttons on the front of the display. It'd look bad if the only button there was a reset button. They could have put it in the back, but the power cord is right there too. And they did have a menu reset available.


----------



## CuriousMark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Wondering out loud if the latest legal maneuvering and court decision between TiVo and Dish will result in yet further delays...or even killing the project.
> 
> The neverending story of patent debates in the courts can't help matters.
> 
> :shrug:


I really doubt it. This latest news is about an old Dish countersuit that will now be allowed to start. Nothing can come of it, win or lose, for years.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bobcamp1 said:


> Could you please tell my marketing people that? :grin: I agree with your other two reasons (well... not the hard drive so much), but the main reason that keeps it out of products I'm involved with ends up being customer perception.


Which part, that the button provides the perception...
Or that the Mac doesn't need it. 



bobcamp1 said:


> I think D* has it right -- hide it under a panel you have to swing open, and make it tiny. No one knows it's there until customer support tells them it's there. The S1 and S2 had no need for such a panel, so they didn't have a panel. Actually, they had NO buttons on the front of the display. It'd look bad if the only button there was a reset button. They could have put it in the back, but the power cord is right there too. And they did have a menu reset available.


I got tired of pulling the power, I bought a remote control power switch (it was a plug module that sat in between the power strip and the powr plug), so I could easily power cycle it without pulling appart the entertainment cabinet. (at the time I was in a smaller home and things were very tight).


----------



## jacmyoung

"CuriousMark" said:


> I really doubt it. This latest news is about an old Dish countersuit that will now be allowed to start. Nothing can come of it, win or lose, for years.


The reopening of the countersuit puts an extra card in Charlie's hand, similar to when MS countersued TiVo after TiVo sued ATT. The relavance will be there if one believes the delay of the new DirecTiVo has some to do with the uncertainty about the TiVo's never ending suit with E*.


----------



## Doug Brott

... And the suit is not relevant to this thread .. :backtotop


----------



## bobcamp1

Earl Bonovich said:


> Which part, that the button provides the perception...
> Or that the Mac doesn't need it.
> 
> I got tired of pulling the power, I bought a remote control power switch (it was a plug module that sat in between the power strip and the powr plug), so I could easily power cycle it without pulling appart the entertainment cabinet. (at the time I was in a smaller home and things were very tight).


You might want to keep that setup. Every time I called D* with a problem, the first thing they did was have me pull the plug for five minutes. They only mentioned the red reset button once, and had me push it AFTER the hard reset (smack forehead).

I have been told that dedicated reset buttons are so 90's, and that I should just make my product better. Most devices that have a battery or plug in don't need a reset button -- people just disconnect the battery or unplug it anyway. The people at Apple screwed up with the non-removable battery -- the reset button is two wrongs trying to make a right. To this day, in fact today, I chuckled as someone removed the battery to restart his notebook PC instead of holding down the power button for four seconds. If customers don't use it, and customer service doesn't use it, and marketing doesn't want it, I'm not going to put it in my designs anymore. I give up. They must be onto something. Or on something.

I'm sure the new HD DirecTivo will have a reset button. My management would strongly disapprove. I might still get one anyway.


----------



## bobcamp1

Doug Brott said:


> The HR2x doesn't have ESP either .. which is why it's nice it lets you choose the one (of the three) to keep when you add a new item.


I finally understood this tonight. (It took me long enough) But if the same show is shown again within 28 days, Tivo will record it then anyway. So you're not really canceling the recording, you're probably postponing it. I suppose the DVR could then look to see if it WILL be reaired, but it would take a while to look through 28 days of guide data (and the DVR doesn't have that much guide data anyway), and you might have another conflict then, so it becomes a huge mess. So you still aren't sure which one to cancel when you're asked the question. I'd still want it to almost always cancel the lower priority recording and have the DVR figure it out.

I looked tonight, and either by luck or trial and error, the network shows that don't re-air new episodes (and sports events) are higher in my Season Pass Manager than cable network first run episodes, which are reaired. Maybe that's why I don't have any conflicts or missed recordings.

It all comes down to which features you'd prefer over others. For me, no hiccups in recording or playback, true KUID, 50+ season passes, and recycle bin are the most important. I'm just hoping they don't charge a huge amount for it.


----------



## inkahauts

bobcamp1 said:


> If the lower one is more important to you, put it higher in the priority list. Also, make sure you have you season pass set to "first run only" to minimize conflicts.
> 
> A trick that Tivo users use is to have TWO season passes for the same show. The higher one is set to "first run" and keep until I delete (which actually works in a Tivo), and the lower pass records everything but only holds 3 or 4 shows. You don't have to do that for every show -- just the ones you have problems with. Since a Tivo has no season pass limit, there aren't any issues. I have had to do that only once in the past, but don't have to anymore. My DVR considers "first run" in a 28 day window, and records the new episode when it is rebroadcast later that night. For most non-network shows, that happens a few hours later at the most.


A simple example why offering to cancel either recording is far more powerful.. I have one unit that is set up to record all my lakers games (highest priority) and then several cable shows... I also use that unit to randomly record one time events and movies... The other day I was getting ready to go to a friends house to watch a game.. When I selected a movie to record, it asked me which recording I wanted to cancel.. I naturally selected the higher priority one of the game, because I knew I was going to be elsewhere watching it already... Why Tivo thinks there will never be a situation like that is beyond me.

Your workaround is a TOTAL joke. Thats worse than all the people complaining about the "workaround" for double play... First off, KUID works perfectly. I have never had an issue with it, ever. You don;t like it because if YOU set a limit of how many recordings it can keep, it will delete the oldest of those to record a new rather than not recording the newest one. Well, I'd be pissed either way because I missed a show, and I am more interested in making sure I get the latest info.

Second reason your workaround is a joke.. DIrectv does this automatically for you! You don;t have to set a second season pass. If something gets canceled because of conflicts, it will record the next available showing. The only time this won;t work is if you purposely choose to not record something from he to do list. But if you choose to not record something from the conflict screen, it will happily record the next airing of a show, even if its labeled a repeat, because it knows it missed the first showing because of a conflict. SO actually, the HRs are smarter and don;t make you set up an annoying second season pass that would fill up your dvr with 99% of episodes that you don;t care about or have already seen as a workaround for conflict resolution...



bobcamp1 said:


> I finally understood this tonight. (It took me long enough) But if the same show is shown again within 28 days, Tivo will record it then anyway. So you're not really canceling the recording, you're probably postponing it. I suppose the DVR could then look to see if it WILL be reaired, but it would take a while to look through 28 days of guide data (and the DVR doesn't have that much guide data anyway), and you might have another conflict then, so it becomes a huge mess. So you still aren't sure which one to cancel when you're asked the question. I'd still want it to almost always cancel the lower priority recording and have the DVR figure it out.
> 
> I looked tonight, and either by luck or trial and error, the network shows that don't re-air new episodes (and sports events) are higher in my Season Pass Manager than cable network first run episodes, which are reaired. Maybe that's why I don't have any conflicts or missed recordings.
> 
> It all comes down to which features you'd prefer over others. For me, no hiccups in recording or playback, true KUID, 50+ season passes, and recycle bin are the most important. I'm just hoping they don't charge a huge amount for it.


I never have any hiccups in recordings or playbacks, although I didn't really have any with tivo either, so frankly, that argument is a wash, unless you want to talk wishlists, in which case tivo sucked and never performed properly at all... I already said my piece about KUID... 50 is annoying, but then I don;t have an issue with it because I have enough DVRs that its never an issue.... But I agree that should be changed.. Recycle bin is easily the most important thing tivo has that I miss with an HR, but then its not something I would ever change dvrs for either... Its so far down the list of overall importance....

Haha.. I am guessing at least an extra $5 a month.. I really expect it to actually be per dvr too, and without MRv with other directv units, its totally worthless IMHO... and thats before I cringe at their ridiculous GUI that treats people like they are all 5 and/or are idiots...


----------



## Brennok

Mike Bertelson said:


> IIRC, the new TiVo QWERTY remote is Bluetooth, and since the DIRECTV HD Receiver with TiVo is based on the HR platform I'd guess not.
> 
> Mike


The TiVo Slide comes with the Bluetooth usb adapter so as long as support for USB is included it could be possible. They did add the support in the Series 3 and TiVo HD so it should be possible. Of course if no USB ports then it won't matter.


----------



## fernly

Placed the amazon order for the new HDTV, the new a/v receiver, and the *HR24 and AM21*.

OK, Tivo, it's all clear now. You can announce a ship date, now that I've committed the other way... :hurah:


----------



## bobcamp1

inkahauts said:


> A simple example why offering to cancel either recording is far more powerful.. I have one unit that is set up to record all my lakers games (highest priority) and then several cable shows... I also use that unit to randomly record one time events and movies... The other day I was getting ready to go to a friends house to watch a game.. When I selected a movie to record, it asked me which recording I wanted to cancel.. I naturally selected the higher priority one of the game, because I knew I was going to be elsewhere watching it already... Why Tivo thinks there will never be a situation like that is beyond me.


I agree, I just don't need that feature at all. I set up everything beforehand with Season Passes and let Tivo do all the scheduling for me. I rarely pick stuff to record directly off the guide, and when I do there's almost never a three-way conflict. I usually don't know which recording I want canceled -- it totally depends on whether there's going to be another showing later on, or what my wife really wants, and neither DVR tells you that. :grin:

Tivo WILL automatically record the next showing, even with just one season pass. I've had some problems with the HR20 doing this consistently, though.

KUID is implemented wrong, but that's OK. I am not the DVR, and the DVR is not me. Keep until ****I**** delete. What part of the letter 'I' does the DVR not get? What if I haven't watched the show in a while, but it's a show where you can't miss an episode? And then they show a marathon of older episodes with bad guide data? With the HR2x's implementation, all the new shows you haven't watched yet are gone. Tivo stops recording the marathon, saving the old shows. The HR2x's implementation is about prioritizing what recording get deleted to make room for other new shows, but it provides a false sense of security that a show will never get deleted when in fact it could.


----------



## tonyd79

bobcamp1 said:


> Tivo WILL automatically record the next showing, even with just one season pass. I've had some problems with the HR20 doing this consistently, though.


You seem to have problems others do not. My DVR handles that just fine.



bobcamp1 said:


> KUID is implemented wrong, but that's OK. I am not the DVR, and the DVR is not me. Keep until ****I**** delete. What part of the letter 'I' does the DVR not get?


Funny how you spun the Tivo implementation of deleting scheduled recordings for you but say you want the DVR to do what YOU want in this case.

Hmm.

Are you dizzy yet from the spinning?


----------



## rbird

fernly said:


> Placed the amazon order for the new HDTV, the new a/v receiver, and the *HR24 and AM21*.
> 
> OK, Tivo, it's all clear now. You can announce a ship date, now that I've committed the other way... :hurah:


Me too. Thanks to the 72.5º locals conversion, D* is bringing me two HRxx and an Hxx for free next week to replace my two DVR-80s and a D12. I suppose it's still possible that I might upgrade when the Tivo is released, but the chances seem slimmer now. Sadly, I just retired my last SA Tivo recently as well.


----------



## cujo2344

rbird said:


> Me too. Thanks to the 72.5º locals conversion, D* is bringing me two HRxx and an Hxx for free next week to replace my two DVR-80s and a D12. I suppose it's still possible that I might upgrade when the Tivo is released, but the chances seem slimmer now. Sadly, I just retired my last SA Tivo recently as well.


I was waiting as well, but I ordered my new receivers last month due to Whole Home Service. I finally retired my 10-250 in the office after I bought my new HD TV in my home office.

I think the ability to link to all my other DVRs > than the TiVo interface.

I was a rabid TiVo supporter but my loyalty waned over the years, I might get one if the Whole Home Service is compatible.


----------



## inkahauts

bobcamp1 said:


> I agree, I just don't need that feature at all. I set up everything beforehand with Season Passes and let Tivo do all the scheduling for me. I rarely pick stuff to record directly off the guide, and when I do there's almost never a three-way conflict. I usually don't know which recording I want canceled -- it totally depends on whether there's going to be another showing later on, or what my wife really wants, and neither DVR tells you that. :grin:
> 
> Tivo WILL automatically record the next showing, even with just one season pass. I've had some problems with the HR20 doing this consistently, though.
> 
> KUID is implemented wrong, but that's OK. I am not the DVR, and the DVR is not me. Keep until ****I**** delete. What part of the letter 'I' does the DVR not get? What if I haven't watched the show in a while, but it's a show where you can't miss an episode? And then they show a marathon of older episodes with bad guide data? With the HR2x's implementation, all the new shows you haven't watched yet are gone. Tivo stops recording the marathon, saving the old shows. The HR2x's implementation is about prioritizing what recording get deleted to make room for other new shows, but it provides a false sense of security that a show will never get deleted when in fact it could.


When I am adding a new season pass, I usually go into the series manager and make sure I place it where I want it, and then never worry about it again. I let the unit decide everything else after I tell it the priority, and It has never failed me. Always picks up a second airing of shows that are in conflict, never fails for me.

Its really only the one time recordings where the option comes into play, and since its a one time thing, I want the option to cancel either.

KUID.. In your example, what do you do when you have finally watched enough episodes so it can start recording again, and suddenly, you realize you have missed an episode because it didn't delete one previously? You have the exact same problem as you stated being the problem with the DIrectv way of doing it, only it happens a few episodes latter rather than sooner.. There is an easy fix for this.. Don;t limit the number of shows you want kept. Thats what I do, and I never have an issues. I only limit the number of shows for things I don't set for KUID and sports.


----------



## Shades228

I think the best thing about this TiVo will be these threads.


----------



## mdntcallr

i hate to say it, but when the heck is the new Directv HD Tivo gonna come out?

and how many features is Directv going to disable? I fear Directv disabling so many features it wont be a true Tivo.

1- Ability to export programs to your mac / pc , external hard drive on home network, to save for future viewing.
2- home sharing (be able to view programs saved on other Tivo's in your home, like on current directv models)
3- Netflix Vod, Amazon VOD, Vudu or others. ability to add other programming.

Tivo is great, but who knows what or even when it is going to come as.


----------



## Doug Brott

mdntcallr,

*When available?*
June/July (at the earliest .. could be later)

*Export (To Go functionality)?*
I don't think so, but perhaps down the road - it's not entirely clear to me

*Whole Home DVR?*
No

*Netflix, Amazon, etc.*
No - these are direct competitors to DIRECTV. While I'm sure they won't come into your home and take these services away from you in other devices, DIRECTV has no incentive to spend money on adding these services which will undoubtedly reduce their own revenue.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mdntcallr said:


> i hate to say it, but when the heck is the new DirecTV HD TiVo gonna come out?


When its done - not to be sarcastic - but its about 2 years behind the original plans....so the last word was 2011 some time.


> and how many features is DirecTV going to disable? I fear DirecTV disabling so many features it wont be a true TiVo.


Perhaps you should consider reading more of the posts in this thread....as the answer to your question is contained therein.

DirecTV is not "disabling" anything...TiVo will determine what stays and what capabilities go inside of their software....so if there are any shortcommings....point to your beloved Tivo for those results.


----------



## Steve

mdntcallr said:


> and how many features is Directv going to disable? I fear Directv disabling so many features it wont be a true Tivo.
> 
> 1- Ability to export programs to your mac / pc , external hard drive on home network, to save for future viewing.
> 2- home sharing (be able to view programs saved on other Tivo's in your home, like on current directv models)
> 3- Netflix Vod, Amazon VOD, Vudu or others. ability to add other programming.


You're correct, IMHO. DirecTV is most likely calling the shots on those features, but for good reason... they're not consistent with DirecTV's business, support and copy protection models.

The new box will probably offer exactly the same features as the HR10-250 DirecTiVO, except I'd be surprised if it's still "hackable", like the old DirecTiVO's.


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## Stuart Sweet

And that is still the bottom line no matter how many times we spin it. Everything I've heard says it's just an HR10 with MPEG4. No more.


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## bdcottle

My first DVR was a DirectTivo Hdvr2. The first couple of months it had an audio dropout problem that was fixed in a reasonable amount of time. It never missed a recording or had any kind of playback problem except the dropout problem. I may have had to restart it once maybe twice in the ten years I've owned it.

My second DVR was a leased VIP 622. It missed one or two programs in the 18 months I leased it. It never had any kind of playback problem. It did however restart three times without warning.

Then I made the mistake of coming back to DIRECTV and leasing a HR2x. The first one only lasted 4 hours before it overheated and shutdown. The replacement lasted 3 weeks before one tuner went 771 and never returned. Number three, which I was stuck with for 23 months, never missed less than 12 recordings a month, most months in the 20's. Now when I say missed I'm including code 13, black screen, immediate keep or delete and 771 problems. When I first got it the audio dropout problem wasn't that bad, but it got progressively worse until I was spending as much time online looking for replacements for bad audio as looking for missed programs. If I was 4 ft from the DVR, pointing the remote directly at the DVR without so much as a shoelace in the way, the remote response was about 65 % accurate and slooowww. 

From there I purchased a VIP722 and dish and reactivated my old account without any promotions so as to avoid a commitment. The VIP722 never missed a recording or had any kind of playback problem except for a rare audio stutter, that isn't 1/100 Th as bad as the HR2x's audio dropout. I can also record 3 things at the same time as long as one is OTA. And I currently have 78 series links set. It has however restarted once without warning.

So my criteria for the new DirecTivo is,

1. Reliably record everything I ask it to, at least 3 if not 4 programs at a time.
2. Reliably playback everything without dropouts or stutters.
3. No series links limits.
4. No commitments. (No way am I going thru the 2 year nightmare I did with the HR21-700).

And by the way, I have 1 TV and I have a HTPC, so the DirecTivo doesn't need MRV or whole home or internet stuff. My HTPC does internet stuff much better than a DVR ever could.


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## joshjr

I asked TiVo today and D* for any information and of course they still know nothing. I hate to say it but man it really ticks me off that TiVo has a section to sign up for updates and in 2.5 years there have been zero. What a crock. I have never owned a TiVo and based on the crappy way this entier thing has been handled it does not make me want one anymore. I pretty much told the lady off that was answering online. What a joke. If in 3 years they know nothing then guess what, they dont get my vote and wont get any of my money either unless its really worth the wait. Either way it does not make me any less mad at the fact that they offered updates and delivered zip. Congrats TiVo you have made someone that has never tried your product not like your brand very well.


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## jal

It's hard to believe that none of the beta testers leaked anything. My uneducated guess is that no one has received anything yet.


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## sigma1914

jal said:


> It's hard to believe that none of the beta testers leaked anything. My uneducated guess is that no one has received anything yet.


I'd say they're honest folks who are abiding by the rules.


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## JoeTheDragon

Doug Brott said:


> mdntcallr,
> 
> *When available?*
> June/July (at the earliest .. could be later)
> 
> *Export (To Go functionality)?*
> I don't think so, but perhaps down the road - it's not entirely clear to me
> 
> *Whole Home DVR?*
> No
> 
> *Netflix, Amazon, etc.*
> No - these are direct competitors to DIRECTV. While I'm sure they won't come into your home and take these services away from you in other devices, DIRECTV has no incentive to spend money on adding these services which will undoubtedly reduce their own revenue.


the RCN tivo also has Netflix, Amazon, locked out.


----------



## Doug Brott

jal said:


> It's hard to believe that none of the beta testers leaked anything. My uneducated guess is that no one has received anything yet.





sigma1914 said:


> I'd say they're honest folks who are abiding by the rules.


I'm sure if there was more excitement we'd see a few leaks .. It's just not any more exciting than I've been saying, though. I was hoping, no expecting, the April release, but that's shot .. June/July now and if there are any hiccups, might as well tack on another 90 days.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jal said:


> It's hard to believe that none of the beta testers leaked anything. My uneducated guess is that no one has received anything yet.


If I were a TiVo hater, I could say something about even if they received something they received nothing... 

Since I'm not a TiVo hater, I'll just say that your analysis is reasonable based on the information most people see. Heck even I forget what I know sometimes. 

Alas, since your information is incomplete your final conclusions are a bit incorrect. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## wingrider01

jal said:


> It's hard to believe that none of the beta testers leaked anything. My uneducated guess is that no one has received anything yet.


Given TIVO's perchance to sue and prosecute would suspect that the beta testers are following the NDA closely


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## rbird

I beta tested back in the day (SA versions 2.5 and 3.0, which is why I hoped to be able to get in this time around), and I seem to remember them being very strict about what could be said (to the point that you weren't even supposed to reveal you were testing until after the fact). It's not like the DirecTV CE program at all. There were homework assignments and steps that had to be completed with each build, IIRC.

I didn't see any harm in saying that I tried to get in this time, but was too late.


----------



## tonyd79

rbird said:


> I beta tested back in the day (SA versions 2.5 and 3.0, which is why I hoped to be able to get in this time around), and I seem to remember them being very strict about what could be said (to the point that you weren't even supposed to reveal you were testing until after the fact). It's not like the DirecTV CE program at all. There were homework assignments and steps that had to be completed with each build, IIRC.
> 
> I didn't see any harm in saying that I tried to get in this time, but was too late.


Same here. I tested a reasonably big release of the HD Tivo about a year and a half ago. Pretty rigourous.


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## AttiTech

From what we've been given here it's telling us that it'll be late 2011 when it's released. Also, everyone should be pleased to know you'll have the option to order between the D* DVR or the TiVO. They haven't released the information on who the manufacturers will be for the TiVO unit or whether it will be MRV capable or not.


----------



## Doug Brott

rbird said:


> I beta tested back in the day (SA versions 2.5 and 3.0, which is why I hoped to be able to get in this time around), and I seem to remember them being very strict about what could be said (to the point that you weren't even supposed to reveal you were testing until after the fact). It's not like the DirecTV CE program at all. There were homework assignments and steps that had to be completed with each build, IIRC.
> 
> I didn't see any harm in saying that I tried to get in this time, but was too late.


Technically speaking TiVo's NDA is so strict that you're not even supposed to say NOW that you were in the Betas from 10 years back. Although I doubt anyone really cares at this point.


----------



## Doug Brott

AttiTech said:


> From what we've been given here it's telling us that it'll be late 2011 when it's released. Also, everyone should be pleased to know you'll have the option to order between the D* DVR or the TiVO. They haven't released the information on who the manufacturers will be for the TiVO unit or whether it will be MRV capable or not.


The manufacturer is Technicolor (THR22-100) .. It will not be MRV capable.


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## Stuart Sweet

And of course that late 2011 timeframe is still up in the air, isn't it...


----------



## AttiTech

Doug Brott said:


> The manufacturer is Technicolor (THR22-100) .. It will not be MRV capable.


The fact that they wouldn't make this MRV capable makes little to no sense.


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## Stuart Sweet

Maybe it's just not something they're technically capable of. TiVos can MRV with other TiVos but maybe they just can't deal with the DIRECTV protocols.


----------



## gregjones

AttiTech said:


> The fact that they wouldn't make this MRV capable makes little to no sense.


It's taken them two years too long to add one notable feature (MPEG4). How long do you think it would take them to add another?


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## Stuart Sweet

Good question :lol:


----------



## johnner1999

Stuart Sweet said:


> Maybe it's just not something they're technically capable of. TiVos can MRV with other TiVos but maybe they just can't deal with the DIRECTV protocols.


well the current S4 boxes still use a copy once protocal for "MRV" so one tivo needs to actual copy the program from one box to other, and since many cable networks flag their digital content with the 1 copy flag - that 1 copy counts as the actual recording you made - so you can not now transfer it to any other boxes.

Not sure if this is a monkey wrench but didn't direcTV buy all or most of the patents that ReplayTV a few year ago? Reason I ask is the DirecTV DVR like the old replayTV actually streams the show over so no copy is made... TiVo doesn't have that patent...

but who knows


----------



## Doug Brott

DIRECTV bought ReplayTV a few years back .. I think everyone believes the transaction was solely for the Patents.

DIRECTV & TiVo have a no-litigation arrangement. While I don't know the actual details, I suspect TiVo could make use of anything that may be related to ReplayTV Patents without much fanfare. While DIRECTV does pay TiVo something for each TiVo, I'm sure the ReplayTV Patents have given DIRECTV a significant amount of leverage in negotiations between DIRECTV & TiVo.


----------



## say-what

johnner1999 said:


> well the current S4 boxes still use a copy once protocal for "MRV" so one tivo needs to actual copy the program from one box to other, and since many cable networks flag their digital content with the 1 copy flag - that 1 copy counts as the actual recording you made - so you can not now transfer it to any other boxes.


My brother is upset with TIVO/COX/the networks about this. He just got a fancy, new HD TIVO and b/c of the network flags, MRV is useless for HD programming. He can still use MRV for the SD version of a program, but what's the point.


----------



## cypherx

Latest tweet from DirecTV makes it sound like Tivo will be launched in LATE 2011. Misinformed CS rep, or has it been pushed back again?

Dave Zatz brings it up:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2011-02/updated-directv-tivo-timing/

Tivo SEC Filings also show that they are expanding their office space by 37,000 sq ft. Could this be a good sign?
http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...tMDAwMDExL3htbC9zdWJkb2N1bWVudC8xL3BhZ2UvMg==


----------



## Doug Brott

cypherx said:


> Latest tweet from DirecTV makes it sound like Tivo will be launched in LATE 2011. Misinformed CS rep, or has it been pushed back again?


June/July will be the absolute earliest at this point as I've noted above. At this point I will not be shocked by a later date. In some circles, July would actually be Late 2011 .. but most people probably would consider that October at the earliest.

Just think, if they release it by September, it will have only been 3 years since the announcement of it's return .. in that same time-frame, DIRECTV has released the HR23-700, HR24-100, HR24-200, HR24-500, H24-100, H24-200, H24-700, H25-500 and possibly the HR34-700 (not currently released).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> June/July will be the absolute earliest at this point as I've noted above. At this point I will not be shocked by a later date. In some circles, July would actually be Late 2011 .. but most people probably would consider that October at the earliest.
> 
> Just think, if they release it by September, it will have only been 3 years since the announcement of it's return .. in that same time-frame, DIRECTV has released the HR23-700, HR24-100, HR24-200, HR24-500, H24-100, H24-200, H24-700, H25-500 and possibly the HR34-700 (not currently released).


The word *Edsel* comes to mind...


----------



## lotbass

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> The word Edsel comes to mind...


Duke nuke em is what comes to my mind.


----------



## bonscott87

lotbass said:


> Duke nuke em is what comes to my mind.


Well, Duke Nuke'em is actually coming out "later this year". Coincidence? LOL :lol:


----------



## ATARI

lotbass said:


> Duke nuke em is what comes to my mind.


+1


----------



## rbird

Doug Brott said:


> Technically speaking TiVo's NDA is so strict that you're not even supposed to say NOW that you were in the Betas from 10 years back. Although I doubt anyone really cares at this point.


Perhaps. I seem to remember there being a "release" from NDA at some point. I could be mistaken.

There was pretty much no way to answer questions about a new software release in the forums without revealing that you were a tester.


----------



## Skyboss

More delays than Amtrak. Never thought that would be possible.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Makes you wonder if it's just vaporware.


----------



## cypherx

Mike White says "you'll see us launching a new HD user interface later this year that we're very excited about that will go with the entertainment portal." http://www.morningstar.com/earnings/22555738-directv-q4-2010.aspx?pindex=10&qindex=8

So if the DirecTivo is the same boring SD Tivo Interface from last generation, why in my right mind would I pay more for that downgrade, when DirecTV themselves will have a modernized updated HD UI along with Multi Room DVR and a great Cutting Edge program.

IF there's a delay due to integrating features like a "virginized tivo interface" as Dave Zatz puts it, then thats one thing. But if after all these delays you see the old school DirecTivo, just with MPEG4 tune-ability- I write failure all over it. What's DirecTV's rush either, if they can't tap into the revenue streams from on demand?


----------



## ndole

Stuart Sweet said:


> Makes you wonder if it's just vaporware.


But there was a picture! :lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yeah, you want to see what I can make pictures of? Photoshop can be very convincing.


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## Hoosier205

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yeah, you want to see what I can make pictures of? Photoshop can be very convincing.


No...let's keep it family friendly around here.


----------



## ndole

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yeah, you want to see what I can make pictures of? Photoshop can be very convincing.


I was being facetious


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## Mike Bertelson

Wasn't there a picture of an alien using a new HD DirecTiVo?

!rolling

News, we're all waiting on news. 

I wonder if there's any real money to be made by TiVo any more. It's been so long and with the HR24s, any new TiVo seems almost irrelevant. I used to be a big supporter of a new TiVo but now it just doesn’t seem worth any extra expense, especially considering the lack of features. 

Mike


----------



## ndole

I think it's safe to say that the [non-Directv branded] stb ship has sailed long ago..
TIVO is wasting their money.


----------



## trainman

Skyboss said:


> More delays than Amtrak. Never thought that would be possible.


Amtrak delays have gone way down in the past few years, mostly thanks to the recession meaning that there are fewer freight trains using the tracks.

TiVo delays, on the other hand...


----------



## ejjames

My in-laws took Amtrak to see us in Minneapolis on Sunday. Scheduled arrival...7:00am. Actual arrival...2:45pm.


----------



## Nordic

New to posting on this site, but have been reading all the great information you all post. I think I am now sick of waiting for the new D*/Tivo DVR. 
When information came last Nov., from Tivo, that the holidays was a bad time to introduce a new product. What? In Sept, when the said end of year for the new receiver, they did not know the holiday season was in Dec. Do they really think we are that stupid? I guess I was, I had been holding out to get it. Something just doesn't seem right! The only feature I really like is the live tv buffer button that switches between the two shows. Maybe the double play feature on the D* DVR's will work ok. I guess I could deal with it and at least get HD.

I copied the below article from the web site, tvpredictions.com They usually have good information. 

Will We Ever See a DIRECTV/TiVo HD DVR?
By Swanni



> Washington, D.C. (February 24, 2011) -- The long awaited new DIRECTV-TiVo HD DVR may be delayed again, according to DIRECTV's Twitter page.
> ...
> But asked this week by a customer when he can expect the HD DVR, DIRECTV's Twitter team didn't sound very confident.
> 
> "Details are still being determined, launch maybe in late 2011. DIRECTV.com or TiVO.com for up-to-date info," DIRECTV tweeted.
> ...


[Mod edit: (tom robertson) Reduced the amount of copyrighted material quoted and added the link to the original source.]


----------



## Lord Vader

Welcome to DBSTalk.com. 

I hope no one jumps all over you, but truthfully, relying on Swanni for reliable information isn't the best thing to do. He's notorious for being inaccurate, and when he's correct, it's because he got his info from somewhere else. Plus, he's got some bug up his ass when it comes to DirecTV/HD/DirecTIVO, despite the fact he's a longtime DirecTV customer.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Lord Vader said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk.com.
> 
> I hope no one jumps all over you, but truthfully, relying on Swanni for reliable information isn't the best thing to do. He's notorious for being inaccurate, and when he's correct, it's because he got his info from somewhere else. Plus, he's got some bug up his ass when it comes to DirecTV/HD/DirecTIVO, despite the fact he's a longtime DirecTV customer.


All Swanni is doing is quoting DTV themselves, so he isn't making anything up. Personally, I'm operating under the assumption that the project will be scrapped and/or never see the light of day. I mean the project is 2-3 years late, has very little interest from consumers and has very little interest from DTV and Tivo themselves. I mean sure the various forms of this thread totals a thousand pages or whatever, but its mostly the same 10 - 20 people . Doug thinks it'll be June/July, but DTV themselves now say its more like 4th quarter. When you hear "its been delayed" 10 to 20 times, you kinda loose faith :sure:.


----------



## inkahauts

I think it will still hit.. And it will sell, to all the customers that are still holding onto directvtivos right ow.. And I think thats the only people that are going to care one bit..


----------



## inkahauts

Nordic said:


> New to posting on this site, but have been reading all the great information you all post. I think I am now sick of waiting for the new D*/Tivo DVR.
> When information came last Nov., from Tivo, that the holidays was a bad time to introduce a new product. What? In Sept, when the said end of year for the new receiver, they did not know the holiday season was in Dec. Do they really think we are that stupid? I guess I was, I had been holding out to get it. Something just doesn't seem right! The only feature I really like is the live tv buffer button that switches between the two shows. Maybe the double play feature on the D* DVR's will work ok. I guess I could deal with it and at least get HD.
> 
> I copied the below article from the web site, tvpredictions.com They usually have good information.
> 
> Will We Ever See a DIRECTV/TiVo HD DVR?
> By Swanni
> 
> [Mod edit: (tom robertson) Reduced the amount of copyrighted material quoted and added the link to the original source.]


:welcome_s

It sounds like you have a tivo and your waiting for hd for a tivo.. Don't bother.. Upgrade, get it over with.. After a week or two, you will forget all about tivo.. The hr's are easier to use, and don;t treat you liek a child all the time.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Personally, I like Tivo UI (being a GUI designer / software engineer). I think it has "personality". The DTV UI looks like every other DVR out there. I wouldn't pay extra per month for Tivo though :lol:. Also, I much prefer that DTV gives you PIM (picture in menus) while the Tivo uses the retarded overlay where you can't see the pic at all.


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> Personally, I like Tivo UI (being a GUI designer / software engineer). I think it has "personality". The DTV UI looks like every other DVR out there. I wouldn't pay extra per month for Tivo though :lol:. Also, I much prefer that DTV gives you PIM (picture in menus) while the Tivo uses the retarded overlay where you can't see the pic at all.


The heck with "personality." Give me functionality and information and peformance. Personality is when they added all that garbage to Windows (curved window edges, shadowing). What does that crap do for me? "Personality" is when someone junks up a webpage so that is slows down and things are harder to find. Clean is best.


----------



## SledgeHammer

tonyd79 said:


> The heck with "personality." Give me functionality and information and peformance. Personality is when they added all that garbage to Windows (curved window edges, shadowing). What does that crap do for me? "Personality" is when someone junks up a webpage so that is slows down and things are harder to find. Clean is best.


Lol, well I had 2 Tivos (series 1 & 2). I turned off sound effects and by that time Tivo had gotten rid of animations and there werent any performance issues for me. I heard people complain about season pass performance, but the DTV DVR has that issue too. Yeah, if its slow beyond usable then thats an issue. I don't remember anything on the Tivos being slow to the point of being unusable. The DTV DVRs can be really slow sometimes when navigating through the guide and stuff, but I have an HR20, I hear the HR24s are much faster.


----------



## tonyd79

SledgeHammer said:


> Lol, well I had 2 Tivos (series 1 & 2). I turned off sound effects and by that time Tivo had gotten rid of animations and there werent any performance issues for me. I heard people complain about season pass performance, but the DTV DVR has that issue too. Yeah, if its slow beyond usable then thats an issue. I don't remember anything on the Tivos being slow to the point of being unusable. The DTV DVRs can be really slow sometimes when navigating through the guide and stuff, but I have an HR20, I hear the HR24s are much faster.


Wasn't saying the Tivos were slow. Other than adjusting season passes, they really weren't. I meant that those are the only things I judge a DVR by. I actually prefer the clean lines of the DirecTV DVR. (You should see the cleanliness of webpages I write.)


----------



## HiDefGator

SledgeHammer said:


> ...but I have an HR20, I hear the HR24s are much faster.


faster yes. but not sure I would say much faster.


----------



## jacmyoung

Yesterday one of the analysts in its TiVo downgrade blamed it in part on the delay of the new DirecTiVo but faulted DirecTV for the delay:

"The irony is -- none of this is TiVo's fault. TiVo simply falls victim because DirecTV cannot cure a myriad of bugs in the middleware."

What is you guys take on such claim?


----------



## wingrider01

jacmyoung said:


> Yesterday one of the analysts in its TiVo downgrade blamed it in part on the delay of the new DirecTiVo but faulted DirecTV for the delay:
> 
> "The irony is -- none of this is TiVo's fault. TiVo simply falls victim because DirecTV cannot cure a myriad of bugs in the middleware."
> 
> What is you guys take on such claim?


errr....... right they are grasping at straws - :eek2: I got a nice piece of beach fron propery in arizona you might like if you buy that one


----------



## Doug Brott

Ah .. The finger pointing now gets going again .. If I recall correctly, this is pretty much what happened in the first round of the TiVo/DIRECTV relationship.

And for the record .. TiVo ** IS ** the middleware provider for the THR22-100. DIRECTV provides the hardware. Certainly there will have to be some sort of access card routines so that the signal can be decrypted, but this is something that has been around for many years .. While it's rocket science to us normal people, it's not really rocket science to those that have the secret sauce.

I'm not exactly sure what middleware DIRECTV would be working on for the TiVo product.


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not exactly sure what middleware DIRECTV would be working on for the TiVo product.


Only thing I can think of is if the author thinks that DirecTV is writing/providing things like MRV/Whole home, VOD and stuff like that. I guess they could be but I would guess it would be mostly giving Tivo the source code or routines on how they did it and then it's Tivo's job (obviously) to write their own code for the Tivo to do the same things. So now sure how that is DirecTV being "buggy" since Tivo still has to write the software.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not exactly sure what middleware DIRECTV would be working on for the TiVo product.


While I don't claim to know what middleware is involved that won't stop me from speculating.

There are back end server pieces that are needed for Video on demand, cinema Plus, TiVo Search, and kidzone. DirecTV requires that these be integrated with and run on their own servers, not the TiVo service. These are being provided by TiVo as said above. But they must be integrated on DirecTV server infrastructure and software so that they work correctly. The TiVo pieces may also rely on software from third parties for things like show and movie details (IMDB type of stuff). This third party middleware may be a problem to get ported over to the DirecTV server infrastructure. TiVo had specific outs in the agreement with direcTV to cover difficulties in these areas, so they must have been expected from the beginning. However, it doesn't make sense that it would take this long to get them resolved, unless there are business issues at stake somewhere in the mix.

Since these other companies are separate subcontractors to DirecTV, it will be up to DirecTV to manage them and insure that they and TiVo are working together properly. Where the blame lies though would have to be mutual, it can't all be TiVo, DirecTV or the other subs. This would have to be a team effort. All we have from the post you responded to is a hint that there may be some friction somewhere with little indication beyond that.


----------



## Doug Brott

I suspect from what I do know that TiVo has once (or twice) gotten to the point that they think they are "done." However, after DIRECTV put it through it's paces, I imagine that the response came back as "Not good enough." The cycle is probably frustrating both sides and now we're seeing the finger pointing.

You can argue that DIRECTV is setting the bar too high or that TiVo is striving for a point that is too low. Either way, it means one thing. The thing I keep coming back to is TiVo having multi-year delays on numerous projects. TiVo talks a good game. Honestly, though, my faith in their comments is not high - although this is a third-hand comment which is surely derived from something TiVo said to this analyst.


----------



## Doug Brott

And as for "not good enough" .. That doesn't mean lack of MRV. MRV won't be in the TiVo.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> I suspect from what I do know that TiVo has once (or twice) gotten to the point that they think they are "done." However, after DIRECTV put it through it's paces, I imagine that the response came back as "Not good enough." The cycle is probably frustrating both sides and now we're seeing the finger pointing.


If they are cycling, then they aren't actually working together on this. Why is DirecTV staying so uninvolved that they only look once or twice, instead of participating day by day. They are supposed to provide a project manager, shouldn't he be doing just that.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> If they are cycling, then they aren't actually working together on this. Why is DirecTV staying so uninvolved that they only look once or twice, instead of participating day by day. They are supposed to provide a project manager, shouldn't he be doing just that.


I only have bits and pieces of information .. I'm sure there is more coordination than I implied.


----------



## SledgeHammer

While a Tivo downgrade is certainly valid for a myriad of reasons... lets see a show of hands of anybody who actually believes some random stock analyst (or to quote Charlie Sheen -- "turd" ) that nobody has ever heard of has internal DTV / Tivo / DTivo information? :sure:

Yeah, thats sure as hell crickets chirping that you hear .

I can believe that Doug and Earl have inside info, but this guy? Sounds like hes just tossing around buzzwords that he doesn't even understand the definition of.


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> I only have bits and pieces of information .. I'm sure there is more coordination than I implied.


I sure hope so.


----------



## jacmyoung

"CuriousMark" said:


> All we have from the post you responded to is a hint that there may be some friction somewhere with little indication beyond that.


I did not take that statement to be either a hint, or little indication, it sounded like a flat out accusation.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> - although this is a third-hand comment which is surely derived from something TiVo said to this analyst.


I was thinking the same thing. But if true it may indicate TiVo might have lost hope for this project, such comment has the potential of burning the bridge.

When you said finger pointing in the past between DirecTV and TiVo, had there ever been so harshly worded finger pointing?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> Yesterday one of the analysts in its TiVo downgrade blamed it in part on the delay of the new DirecTiVo but faulted DirecTV for the delay:
> 
> "The irony is -- none of this is TiVo's fault. TiVo simply falls victim because DirecTV cannot cure a myriad of bugs in the middleware."
> 
> What is you guys take on such claim?


I'm calling this one out as rubbish. Show me evidence. All TiVo needs from DIRECTV is the DRM software, everything else comes from the manufacturers, like drivers and such. This is a case of someone not knowing what they're talking about.


----------



## ndole

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm calling this one out as rubbish. Show me evidence. All TiVo needs from DIRECTV is the DRM software, everything else comes from the manufacturers, like drivers and such. This is a case of someone not knowing what they're talking about.


Rubbish? :lol:

Boulderdash! Bollocks! Poohockey!


----------



## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> I'm calling this one out as rubbish. Show me evidence. All TiVo needs from DIRECTV is the DRM software, everything else comes from the manufacturers, like drivers and such. This is a case of someone not knowing what they're talking about.


So what the heck is the middleware TiVo was talking about?


----------



## SledgeHammer

jacmyoung said:


> So what the heck is the middleware TiVo was talking about?


It was just some random analyst who has no clue about the business tossing around some random buzzwords he doesn't understand in an attempt to impress chicks :grin:.

Seriously though, I used to be a day trader and we saw these types of clueless guys all the time. There were a few analysts out there that people would just go opposite of by default because they were always wrong.


----------



## ejjames

I'm not expecting it, but does anyone know if it will be DIRECTV2PC capable?

If not, I would still get one for the rest of the family, but would keep my HR20 and it's 1.5TB drive for myself. I use D2PC multiple times a day, and that feature, by itself, will keep me a DTV customer.


----------



## harsh

ejjames said:


> I'm not expecting it, but does anyone know if it will be DIRECTV2PC capable?


In a recent post, Doug Brott said that "MRV won't be in the TiVo" so it follows that it will NOT support DIRECTV2PC.


----------



## redhot

If "MRV won't be in the TiVo" there is no sense in me waiting for the Tivo unit. Looks like I'll be upgrading to the HR-24 sooner than I thought.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

harsh said:


> In a recent post, Doug Brott said that "MRV won't be in the TiVo" so it follows that it will NOT support DIRECTV2PC.


I'm not sure that it does "follow". DirecTV2PC doesn't rely on MRV so that's not a worry.

It may not be DirecTV2PC but that doesn't mean there won't be a TiVo equivalent....or something else altogether that allows watching recordings on your PC. Nobody is saying so we really don't know what capabilities it will have but the ability to watch recordings on something other than a connected TV is not out of the question...yet. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Steve

redhot said:


> If "MRV won't be in the TiVo" there is no sense in me waiting for the Tivo unit. Looks like I'll be upgrading to the HR-24 sooner than I thought.


FYI, if you already have older HR 2x's, you don't need to go HR24 to get MRV. Just order a "Whole Home" set-up and if you need DECA adapters for your existing HD boxes, they'll be installed as part of the deal.


----------



## redhot

Steve said:


> FYI, if you already have older HR 2x's, you don't need to go HR24 to get MRV. Just order a "Whole Home" set-up and if you need DECA adapters for your existing HD boxes, they'll be installed as part of the deal.


I have 2.. R-10 SD Tivo units, I, like the other suckers here, have been WAITING way to long for nothing to come out. I now, do not think, there will be a new Tivo unit, and if there is, it probably won't have all the features that the HR's have now. I'm still going to wait till the end of this 1st quarter (March 31st) . If there is still no clue of a new Tivo unit. I will be getting 2.. HR-24's. SUCKS TO BE WAITING FOR NOTHING.....................


----------



## Stuart Sweet

redhot, I'd order those HR24s now.


----------



## CuriousMark

ejjames said:


> I use D2PC multiple times a day, and that feature, by itself, will keep me a DTV customer.


A stand alone TiVo DVR on many, but nowhere near all, cable systems can also do this. It is not a feature unique to DirecTV. That said, I suspect changing over to cable is not the option you were comparing. If your area of the country uses Time Warner, then you definitely would not want to try the standalone route as they put codes in the video of all cable channels to disable the transfers and watching on a PC with a standalone TiVo DVR.


----------



## Doug Brott

redhot said:


> I have 2.. R-10 SD Tivo units, I, like the other suckers here, have been WAITING way to long for nothing to come out. I now, do not think, there will be a new Tivo unit, and if there is, it probably won't have all the features that the HR's have now. I'm still going to wait till the end of this 1st quarter (March 31st) . If there is still no clue of a new Tivo unit. I will be getting 2.. HR-24's. SUCKS TO BE WAITING FOR NOTHING.....................


If you have another compelling reason to wait until March 31st, then that's cool, but if it's solely to see if the TiVo will be arriving .. it ain't happening.

Last I heard, June/July but even that was quite shaky. @DIRECTV via Twitter said late 2011 - which I will interpret as September/October .. Either way, it doesn't look like it's going to happen until the 2nd half of 2011 no matter what. That's 2 years AFTER the due time and 3 years after the announcement of it's return.


----------



## harsh

Mike Bertelson said:


> I'm not sure that it does "follow". DirecTV2PC doesn't rely on MRV so that's not a worry.


It is my understanding that DIRECTV2PC was the original MRV client. The lone departure being that it doesn't require a WHDS subscription.


----------



## jacmyoung

The above several posts demonstrate the importance of streaming, whether to a PC, an iPad, a tablet or a smartphone. Makes many happy and loyal campers.


----------



## redhot

2 HR24's, CCK, MRV here I come


----------



## Doug Brott

redhot said:


> 2 HR24's, CCK, MRV here I come


Now that's Red Hot!


----------



## redhot

Doug Brott said:


> Now that's Red Hot!


Now, if I can only get a Red Hot deal on an upgrade


----------



## cypherx

Well for the longest time by looking at beautiful HD-UI screen shots and promo video's, I thought the Virgin Media Tivo was the best implementation so far. Come on... 3 tuners, full HD-UI even in info / grid guide, and some custom operator branding that sets it apart from the rest.

Well apparently it's plagued with issues as well.
http://hd.engadget.com/2011/03/03/v...milar-to-the-premiere-in-all-t/#disqus_thread

Tivo, I give up. Your ship has sailed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> The above several posts demonstrate the importance of streaming, whether to a PC, an iPad, a tablet or a smartphone. Makes many happy and loyal campers.


I don't see that case being supported based on any of the posts in this thread. There's another thread out there to discuss streaming if that's your fancy.

In the mean time...the next Tivobox has been repeatedly described primarily as an HR22 with MPEG4 support and a Tivo user interface...


----------



## jacmyoung

"ejjames" said:


> I'm not expecting it, but does anyone know if it will be DIRECTV2PC capable?
> 
> If not, I would still get one for the rest of the family, but would keep my HR20 and it's 1.5TB drive for myself. I use D2PC multiple times a day, and that feature, by itself, will keep me a DTV customer.


Did you read this one HDTV Fan?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Did you read this one HDTV Fan?


Yup...thats a single opinion...not a business case.

The next HD Tivo unit will have as many limitations as it does capabilities, based on everything posted here to date.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think that there could be a movie somewhere in the story of how TiVo had it all in the DVR market and how far they've fallen.


----------



## johnner1999

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think that there could be a movie somewhere in the story of how TiVo had it all in the DVR market and how far they've fallen.


I love tivo! have been a customer since 2003-4? Just switched to D* after dealing with two of the new S4 boxes (one might be in a b e t a) program and they really need to get their act together -- my wife even said our new HR24's seem much better than the tivo's (noted they didn'thave the cool UI like tivo does but I assume as others stated here the new hd ui might come to the hr24) So I see almost zero value in TiVo any longer..... sory makes me sad to be honest


----------



## jacmyoung

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> Yup...thats a single opinion...not a business case.
> 
> The next HD Tivo unit will have as many limitations as it does capabilities, based on everything posted here to date.


You said I could not have read from ANY of the posts here to support my streaming "fancy" but you were wrong, besides the word "fancy" seems to imply it has no merit. Just because you don't think streaming has merit does not mean it has no use to the others.

What is necessary to make "a business case" when every other major manufacture either has it or is working on it? When Apple unveiled the new iPad2 two days ago, streaming from Apple TV was considered a key feature to revive the Apple TV sales.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> You said I could not have read from ANY of the posts here to support my streaming "fancy" but you were wrong, besides the word "fancy" seems to imply it has no merit. Just because you don't think streaming has merit does not mean it has no use to the others.


In like manner...two people saying something should be so doesn't make it so for the mainstream user base.

That's not to discount the idea...but as I stated originally...there is other threads on the topic of the *value of streaming *support in general...two sides to that coin....this thread is about the next Tivobox.


----------



## jacmyoung

"hdtvfan0001" said:


> In like manner...two people saying something should be so doesn't make it so for the mainstream user base.
> 
> That's not to discount the idea...but as I stated originally...there is other threads on the topic of hte value of streaming... this one is about the next Tivobox.


Streaming is on topic with anything TiVo since TiVo does streaming too, it must be a valuable feature for TiVo.


----------



## sigma1914

jacmyoung said:


> Streaming is on topic with anything TiVo since TiVo does streaming too.


The Directivo won't, so it's a moot point.


----------



## fernly

I posted above under "bullet bitten" that I'd given up waiting and ordered an HR24. This has since been installed and I've posted a detailed commentary as an Amazon review.

Netting it out, while I think the HR24 UI is clunky-looking -- crude, blocky, not a drop-shadow or a color gradient or an aliased font to be seen! -- still, it has all the functionality that we were used to with the DirecTivo. If and when the new DirecTivo emerges out of the vapor, we'll give it a look but won't feel any pressure to upgrade to it.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think that there could be a movie somewhere in the story of how TiVo had it all in the DVR market and how far they've fallen.


They've been talking about doing that since 2008 . According to Variety, it keeps getting delayed for "various reasons" . Last I heard they are trying to get Justin Bieber to star.


----------



## jacmyoung

"sigma1914" said:


> The Directivo won't, so it's a moot point.


We know MRV will not be in the new DirecTiVo, but it seems to continue to be discussed.

In fact based on the several users who just very recently decided not to wait anymore and upgraded to the HR24s, and based on their reactions, one could say the new DirecTiVo itself is going to be moot.

So why are people still talking?


----------



## ndole

jacmyoung said:


> We know MRV will not be in the new DirecTiVo, but it seems to continue to be discussed.
> 
> In fact based on the several users who just very recently decided not to wait anymore and upgraded to the HR24s, and based on their reactions, one could say the new DirecTiVo itself is going to be moot.
> 
> So why are people still talking?


The only reason I'm keeping an ear open on the subject is the prospect of this monstrosity actually making it's way into my van :barf:
And the pain in my butt therein.


----------



## ATARI

jacmyoung said:


> We know MRV will not be in the new DirecTiVo, but it seems to continue to be discussed.
> 
> In fact based on the several users who just very recently decided not to wait anymore and upgraded to the HR24s, and based on their reactions, one could say the new DirecTiVo itself is going to be moot.
> 
> So why are people still talking?


Because this thread exists?


----------



## Bob_fromLA

Posts indicating that the new unit runs on DiercTV hardware now have me worried! Anyone have more information on hardware specs?

Most Tivo units will do Over the Air, which is the main reason I stayed with the HR-250. If the new unit won't do that, I'm gone from DirecTV and I've been a customer since 1997 (I also helped design the original satellites). Here in LA, the cable operators and satellite providers generally pick only one of the various local station feeds. However, a lot of the programming I enjoy comes from the secondary feeds (many stations have 4 or more!).


----------



## inkahauts

I believe that the new tivo will be an hr-22 (with different looks), so no internal OTA. We don't know yet if it will work with a AM21.. And while logic says it should, it is tivo software. I Just don't get why anyone is holding onto that rather than upgrading now, and if you need an OTA, just add a AM21. I would never in my life hold out on HD for any specific gui, much less for a Tivo one. But still, depriving myself of HD for a GUI? I don't get it. (and I think Directvs is far better anyway. Maybe it doesn't look quite as pretty as a tivo, but its far more functionable, and in my case, reliable as well.)


----------



## bonscott87

Yea, the HR2x units have been doing OTA since 2006 (shortly after release). HR20 has it built in, the others just need the AM21 module. Sticking with the HR10-250 just for OTA seems a bit odd unless blind scanning is a requirement.


----------



## Doug Brott

The DIRECTV TiVo is based on the HR22 (Technicolor) .. It's model number should be THR22-100. From my understanding, it will support the AM21 and OTA. This shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Shades228

Bob_fromLA said:


> Posts indicating that the new unit runs on DiercTV hardware now have me worried! Anyone have more information on hardware specs?
> 
> Most Tivo units will do Over the Air, which is the main reason I stayed with the HR-250. If the new unit won't do that, I'm gone from DirecTV and I've been a customer since 1997 (I also helped design the original satellites). Here in LA, the cable operators and satellite providers generally pick only one of the various local station feeds. However, a lot of the programming I enjoy comes from the secondary feeds (many stations have 4 or more!).


So why wouldn't you get get an AM 21 with a HR unit? I highly doubt TiVo would put an OTA in a unit now even if they did their own. It wouldn't be cost effecient.


----------



## Richierich

Bob just buy an AM21 and be done with it as it is too expensive to include an OTA Tuner with each HR2X when most people will never use the OTA Tuner so they just provide it for those folks who will need it and use it.

I have 2 and they work great but I really don't use the OTA Channels because my Directv Locals are great. Of course there are some sub-channels that the OTA Tuner pulls in that some will use but I don't so I just use Directv's Locals and I am good to go.


----------



## bobcamp1

richierich said:


> Bob just buy an AM21 and be done with it as it is too expensive to include an OTA Tuner with each HR2X when most people will never use the OTA Tuner so they just provide it for those folks who will need it and use it.
> 
> I have 2 and they work great but I really don't use the OTA Channels because my Directv Locals are great. Of course there are some sub-channels that the OTA Tuner pulls in that some will use but I don't so I just use Directv's Locals and I am good to go.


You didn't read Bob's posts. He watches almost all of the *sub-channels*, and if D* doesn't think you get them, then you can't tune to them even with an AM21. Bob's best bet is to find out from other D* customers in his area which channels he can actually receive, then make his decision.

D* doesn't know three of my local sub-channels exist, so I cannot tune to them using any D* equipment. Fortunately, I can turn off my receiver and watch them with the TV, but I obviously can't record them.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Right. That's a limitation with the AM21 because there's no channel scan. And why is there no channel scan? DIRECTV feels it can serve more of its OTA customers better by using a database instead of a channel scan. It is what it is... and that's not likely to change.


----------



## ATARI

Does it pay to even start a Q2 2011 thread for this topic?

Seems to me the new DirecTiVo is vaporware.


----------



## Shades228

bobcamp1 said:


> You didn't read Bob's posts. He watches almost all of the *sub-channels*, and if D* doesn't think you get them, then you can't tune to them even with an AM21. Bob's best bet is to find out from other D* customers in his area which channels he can actually receive, then make his decision.
> 
> D* doesn't know three of my local sub-channels exist, so I cannot tune to them using any D* equipment. Fortunately, I can turn off my receiver and watch them with the TV, but I obviously can't record them.


Then Bob is going to be upset.


----------



## Bob_fromLA

Thanks for the help, I'll look into the AM21!!


----------



## smiddy

Whoa, this thread is still going, I was thinking we'd a seen a DirecTiVo by now.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yeah right. Ask again in 12 months.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yeah right. Ask again in 12 months.


...guess its almost time to start that 1Q 2012 thread huh?


----------



## xtc

So it says in the first post that if/when this TiVo comes out, it will just be software, not a stand alone unit? So does that mean even if you have an older unit like the HR20, 21, 22, 23, or even the new 24 now, that you can add TiVo on it when it comes out?


----------



## bonscott87

xtc said:


> So it says in the first post that if/when this TiVo comes out, it will just be software, not a stand alone unit? So does that mean even if you have an older unit like the HR20, 21, 22, 23, or even the new 24 now, that you can add TiVo on it when it comes out?


No. As has been posted a few times, it's simply an HR22 with the Tivo software on it that will have the Tivo logo on it. There will not be any Tivo software you can download onto current units. You want Tivo you need to get the new box (assuming it ever ships that is).


----------



## inkahauts

I actually do think it will ship at some point, because they will be able tp recoup some money from it that they have spent developing it, even with minimal advertising. And if they start selling, they may even advertise a lot to see if they can push the sales, but I don't think they will make all their money back.. only some...


----------



## jacmyoung

inkahauts said:


> I actually do think it will ship at some point, because they will be able tp recoup some money from it that they have spent developing it, even with minimal advertising. And if they start selling, they may even advertise a lot to see if they can push the sales, but I don't think they will make all their money back.. only some...


Who is they? For TiVo maybe since it will not cost them anything to manufacture the hardware, but what about DirecTV? DirecTV will be responsible for the manufacturing of the hardware, and subsidizing them too. Although if it will just be another HR22, hopefully there won't be any added cost.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> Who is they? For TiVo maybe since it will not cost them anything to manufacture the hardware, but what about DirecTV? DirecTV will be responsible for the manufacturing of the hardware, and subsidizing them too. Although if it will just be another HR22, hopefully there won't be any added cost.


How do you know that TiVo isn't responsible for any of the hardware costs?

Mike


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## Stuart Sweet

Right. We don't know who is paying for what here. We know that DIRECTV provided the hardware specs, but as to who's paying Technicolor to build them, we don't know that. 

I don't expect that a THR22 would cost more to build than an HR22 if that's your point. But if your point is that they "have" to ship a THR22 because someone's paying to build them, that's probably not true. Projects are canceled all the time.


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## jacmyoung

Just like the old agreement, I can't imagine TiVo is providing more than the software support if they are only getting around a dollar for each DVR per month, including licensing fee. It would seriously undermine their claim against E*


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm not disagreeing with you, but a phrase like "I can't imagine" is sort of open ended. I can imagine it, although as I imagine it, it's a bad business decision


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, but a phrase like "I can't imagine" is sort of open ended. I can imagine it, although as I imagine it, it's a bad business decision


Everyone has his or her own threshold how bad it becomes too bad to imagine

Seriously though, I know many of you do not agree there was any link between the announcement of this new DirecTiVo deal and the TiVo v. E* hearing. But the fact of the matter is, for TiVo to argue for a higher royalty rate for the court to impose, TiVo must establish a reasonable licensing fee in a hypothetical licensing negotiation. Such fee must be supported by real world licensing data. One day after the new agreement announced a significantly higher fee for the new DirecTiVo, TiVo asked the court to impose a $2.25 rate on E*, $1.00 higher than the old $1.25 rate. Those rates were purely licensing rates, without requiring TiVo to put out any effort or be responsible for any expenses.

Imagine if the less than $1.00 rate in the old DirecTV deal, or the more than $1.00 rate in the new deal also included TiVo covering the hardware costs, never mind TiVo also had to cover the software part, the actual "licensing fee" part would have been much less than $1.00. From that angle, I could not imagine it. But as I said most of you do not agree there was a link between the two, so I can understand if you can imagine it


----------



## inkahauts

I don't recall seeing what the new rate Tivo would be getting for the new boxes was going to be.. I think it will be significantly higher, because I think you will see a Tivo fee on statements, and that that extra fee will cover the costs of the licensing fee and the hardware..

I think both can get some of their money back... I don;t see how at this point, if they can release it, how it would cost either of them more money than they have already spent.


----------



## jacmyoung

inkahauts said:


> I don't recall seeing what the new rate Tivo would be getting for the new boxes was going to be.. I think it will be significantly higher, because I think you will see a Tivo fee on statements, and that that extra fee will cover the costs of the licensing fee and the hardware..
> 
> I think both can get some of their money back... I don;t see how at this point, if they can release it, how it would cost either of them more money than they have already spent.


I recall some inside speculation the new rate would be around $1.25 to $1.50, which if true would be significantly higher than the old $0.90 or so. But if you think another hardware fee will likely be added to make the monthly rate even higher, I can imagine it, only that there has never been any indication that the fee structure would be different than that of the old agreement, which was, and still is just a flat rate not shown on a customer's statement, only the fee would be significantly higher.

Even if TiVo is responsible in some form for the cost of the hardware, which would again be a drastic departure from the old agreement, DirecTV likely will be responsible for most of such cost.


----------



## inkahauts

It ha been mentioned that tivo would have a premium, or be a premium service, something to that effect. That just has extra fee written all over it.


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## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> It ha been mentioned that tivo would have a premium, or be a premium service, something to that effect. That just has extra fee written all over it.


So DirecTV expects people who are stuck on the HR10-250 to pay $199 (or more) to upgrade to the "new box", that will be a stripped down version of the HR22 *AND* pay an additional monthly fee on top of what they would pay had they just gotten the HR22?

LOL, I can't imagine somebody being such a die hard Tivo fan in this day and age that they say "yeah, I want a box with LESS features and I'll pay more money for it!! Yay!!!"


----------



## rainydave

SledgeHammer said:


> So DirecTV expects people who are stuck on the HR10-250 to pay $199 (or more) to upgrade to the "new box", that will be a stripped down version of the HR22 *AND* pay an additional monthly fee on top of what they would pay had they just gotten the HR22?
> 
> LOL, I can't imagine somebody being such a die hard Tivo fan in this day and age that they say "yeah, I want a box with LESS features and I'll pay more money for it!! Yay!!!"


I can imagine it. There are people out there who have held off upgrading to HD DVRs (while having HD tvs) just so they can keep their DirecTiVo SD boxes. Never underestimate people.


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## bonscott87

SledgeHammer said:


> So DirecTV expects people who are stuck on the HR10-250


Who is stuck? DirecTV has had HD DVRs for going on 5 years now. Just some people for some reason deny themselves HD because of a UI. Go figure.


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## SledgeHammer

bonscott87 said:


> Who is stuck? DirecTV has had HD DVRs for going on 5 years now. Just some people for some reason deny themselves HD because of a UI. Go figure.


Thats what I mean. Lots of people kept the HR10-250 because they refused to go to the HR2x boxes. So I guess they would rather pay more per month for a Tivo box with less features.


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## ndole

SledgeHammer said:


> Thats what I mean. Lots of people kept the HR10-250 because they refused to go to the HR2x boxes. So I guess they would rather pay more per month for a Tivo box with less features.


There's no accounting for the wisdom of people who are stuck in their ways.


----------



## Richierich

bonscott87 said:


> Who is stuck? DirecTV has had HD DVRs for going on 5 years now. Just some people for some reason deny themselves HD because of a UI. Go figure.


I can't figure it out and I was one of the First if not The First to Buy and Activate an HR10-250 with Directv and I gave it up for MPEG-4 HD Directv and I can't imagine using my 2 HR10-250s that I still have unless it was for OTA and SD stuff.


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## bonscott87

SledgeHammer said:


> Thats what I mean. Lots of people kept the HR10-250 because they refused to go to the HR2x boxes. So I guess they would rather pay more per month for a Tivo box with less features.


But Tivo feels that people will always pay more for Tivo. They have thought that way for over a decade. The problem is they fail to see that isn't the fact. One only needs to look at the continued Tivo subscriber loss but they don't see it.

As for DirecTV, they don't care. They agreed to let Tivo build a new DirecTivo HD as part of their no litigation agreement but only if they could pass on the cost to the users. Tivo says "sure, they will pay, it's Tivo after all, deal!"
So DirecTV will pass the cost on and could care less if they sell a single one since they have what they want...Tivo can't sue them.

We've been over this before. This whole thing is a no lose situation for DirecTV either way. DirecTivo HD a smashing success...great, they make money. If it's a failure...great, they have the no litigation agreement.


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## Davenlr

If the new DirecTv Tivo is as slow and bug ridden as my Tivo Premier, you all are gonna be crying for a long time.


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## SledgeHammer

richierich said:


> I can't figure it out and I was one of the First if not The First to Buy and Activate an HR10-250 with Directv and I gave it up for MPEG-4 HD Directv and I can't imagine using my 2 HR10-250s that I still have unless it was for OTA and SD stuff.


Thats why god invented the HR20 . Thats what I'm running for MPEG4 + OTA. I'm not married to OTA though to be honest. There isn't really anything on it. I live near Los Angeles, so I get the LA locals from DTV and they are equivalent in PQ to the OTAs. I have it working, so I'm not going to disconnect it even though its completely useless. I also wouldn't be opposed to loosing it with a box upgrade. I certainly wouldn't go through the hassle of getting an AM21.


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## SledgeHammer

bonscott87 said:


> But Tivo feels that people will always pay more for Tivo. They have thought that way for over a decade. The problem is they fail to see that isn't the fact. One only needs to look at the continued Tivo subscriber loss but they don't see it.


I've said repeatedly that I liked (most of) the Tivo UI when I had my HR10-250. Some aspects are better then the HR2x, some are worse. I wouldn't pay one red cent extra for it. If there is no monthly surcharge and it doesn't have any deal breakers for me, maybe I would buy it, but doubt it. It would really need to be no deal breakers + QWERTY remote support for me to bother wasting $200+ on it. And we know the QWERTY remote ain't happenin'.

I still hear a few people say "I'm going to Tivo that tonight" (some of which don't even have a Tivo LOL), but most have moved on to "record". A few older people still say "tape".

Tivo hasn't really been relevant for 5 to 7 yrs, but back then it was like having an iPhone is today.



bonscott87 said:


> We've been over this before. This whole thing is a no lose situation for DirecTV either way. DirecTivo HD a smashing success...great, they make money. If it's a failure...great, they have the no litigation agreement.


I'm still *FIRMLY* in the camp of "this thing will never see the light of day".

There is cost involved in it for DTV. They need to support it. That means training the call center people on it.


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## WillieWildcat

There are still a few more months of beta testing from what I gather. You should see a DirecTivo sometime in the future as they have spent some coin on development and testing.


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## Doug Brott

WillieWildcat said:


> There are still a few more months of beta testing from what I gather. You should see a DirecTivo sometime in the future as they have spent some coin on development and testing.


I'd agree with this comment .. and I'm still in the June/July camp. We could possibly be within 90 days at this point.


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## tonyd79

Waiting for Godot (pronounced GAH-doh) is an absurdist play by Samuel Beckett, in which two characters, Vladimir and Estragon, wait endlessly and in vain for someone named Godot to arrive.

becomes

Waiting for Tivo (pronounced TEE-voh) is an absurdity, in which two companies, DirecTV and Tivo, watch their customers wait endlessly and in vain for something named DirecTivo to arrive.


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## codespy

ndole_mbnd said:


> There's no accounting for the wisdom of people who are stuck in their ways.


Well some people who had SD DirecTiVo's got a taste of the first of DirecTV's DVR's.....the R15.....and what a piece of garbage that was (my opinion of course). Because the UI of the R15 is similar to the DirecTV HD-DVR's, there are many still hesitant to make the switch.

For me, when I got my first R15 I really gave it a shot. But it was PAINFUL. I ended up going back to the DirecTiVo's, until the HR10's finally came down to an "affordable" price. But then the MPEG-2 HD went away, and I am a HD junkie, so I HAD to upgrade.

And when the digital transition took place, the HR10's were much better than regular converter boxes because they had features (like DD 5.1 sound, HDMI). I still have 4 inactive HR10's going for the OTA and previously recorded programs....programs that still play for years after deactivating the box, which current DirecTV DVR's don't give you.

So there are good and not so good reasons some people are still hanging on to old equipment. It is entirely their choice and comfort level.

For me, if this new TiVo happens, I may pull the trigger again on one unless it causes me to lose my grandfathered Premier free DVR service. That would be a dealbreaker and would not happen in this household.


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## inkahauts

I can see hanging onto old HD DirecTVTivos and getting a new HR2X as well, but It is totally illogical and to me, silly, to not MISS all that HD simply for a UI....


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## codespy

inkahauts said:


> I can see hanging onto old HD DirecTVTivos and getting a new HR2X as well, but It is totally illogical and to me, silly, to not MISS all that HD simply for a UI....


Again, to some it depends if the old HD DirecTiVo's are activated or not. They still have great use if deactivated. Some activated ones may also be on a triple sat dish antenna, and people don't want to go thru the hassle of upgrading, even if it is free.


----------



## jbaron76

I have an HR22 and I also have a Tivo SD80 unit. I can see why some are hesitant to give up their TiVo's. For those of you who don't have a TiVo unit it is hard to understand. But for those of us who do, we realize just how superior the TiVo software is to DirecTV's software. I can't speak for those with an HR20, but the newer HR22 and HR23 are plagued with an EXTREMELY SLUGGISH interface. At times it is almost unusable due to how slow it is. Sure it includes some great features that the TiVo doesn't have, but what good are features if the box can barely perform its most basic functions? In case you're wondering, yes I have complained to DirecTV. All it got me was another HR22 that has the same problems. The tech told me it was normal and that there was nothing I could do about it. So, I don't blame anyone for waiting.


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## redhot

jbaron76 said:


> I have an HR22 and I also have a Tivo SD80 unit. I can see why some are hesitant to give up their TiVo's. For those of you who don't have a TiVo unit it is hard to understand. But for those of us who do, we realize just how superior the TiVo software is to DirecTV's software. I can't speak for those with an HR20, but the newer HR22 and HR23 are plagued with an EXTREMELY SLUGGISH interface. At times it is almost unusable due to how slow it is. Sure it includes some great features that the TiVo doesn't have, but what good are features if the box can barely perform its most basic functions? In case you're wondering, yes I have complained to DirecTV. All it got me was another HR22 that has the same problems. The tech told me it was normal and that there was nothing I could do about it. So, I don't blame anyone for waiting.


This is the major reason I am afraid to switch to HD. My two R-10's I love, (except the one is pixelating alot), but they still run fast. If I had to switch to a slower system it would drive me crazy....:nono2:


----------



## tonyd79

jbaron76 said:


> I have an HR22 and I also have a Tivo SD80 unit. I can see why some are hesitant to give up their TiVo's. For those of you who don't have a TiVo unit it is hard to understand. But for those of us who do, we realize just how superior the TiVo software is to DirecTV's software. I can't speak for those with an HR20, but the newer HR22 and HR23 are plagued with an EXTREMELY SLUGGISH interface. At times it is almost unusable due to how slow it is. Sure it includes some great features that the TiVo doesn't have, but what good are features if the box can barely perform its most basic functions? In case you're wondering, yes I have complained to DirecTV. All it got me was another HR22 that has the same problems. The tech told me it was normal and that there was nothing I could do about it. So, I don't blame anyone for waiting.


The best thing that the DirecTV DVRs have that the old Tivos do not: HD!!!

I'm with inkahauts, I cannot see denying yourself HD for a DVR platform.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Doug Brott said:


> I'd agree with this comment .. and I'm still in the June/July camp. We could possibly be within 90 days at this point.


All this optimism from you is amusing. I'm increasingly in the Q1/2012 camp.


----------



## CuriousMark

tonyd79 said:


> The best thing that the DirecTV DVRs have that the old Tivos do not: HD!!!
> 
> I'm with inkahauts, I cannot see denying yourself HD for a DVR platform.


Which is why I got an HR24 and an H24 to accompany my Series 2 TiVo DVRs. However at the viewing distance and screen size the home decorator (read wife) allowed, HDTV is not as compelling as I had hoped it would be. Oh, I can see a difference, yes, but it is only a small improvement. For the features the DirecTV equipment fails to provide me that the S2's do, I find I watch them about 50% of the time still and it doesn't seem to be decreasing.

The most notable real advantage of the H24 for me is simply recording capacity. It is ROOMY.

My point is that HD may not be a compelling reason for some to upgrade unless they are willing to refurnish and rearrange their homes to either put in a large enough screen, or sit close enough to it, that the difference in picture quality actually becomes as important as it is for you.

My setup is a 50 inch Kuro at 11 feet, and my wife hates that I have drug the couch that close to the TV wall leaving a big empty space behind it that doesn't flow. At this distance I cannot see any difference between 720 and 1080 at all and SD upscaled by this television ( which is unusually good at this ) is so much better than any other SD set in the house, that the difference between that and HD is nice, but not all that huge.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Mark, I guess we have different standards because I can certainly see the difference between scaled SD and 720p on my 37" TV. I'll admit to seeing no difference between 720 and 1080 as it's a 768p panel. Actually I do sometimes see a difference but it's more of a global one: some receivers look better at 1080 and some at 720.


----------



## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> Mark, I guess we have different standards because I can certainly see the difference between scaled SD and 720p on my 37" TV. I'll admit to seeing no difference between 720 and 1080 as it's a 768p panel. Actually I do sometimes see a difference but it's more of a global one: some receivers look better at 1080 and some at 720.


I didn't say I can't see the difference, I can, but it is not as big as I had expected it to be. If I get up and stand closer in front of the TV, the difference is much more impressive. But I don't watch TV standing in the center of the room. My Kuro also has a much better up-scaler than you will find on 90% of LCD sets, of any size. I also must say that I set the TiVo to BEST quality to feed it a decently up-scalable picture. That is where the roominess of the HR24 comes in, the TiVo DVR only holds 40 Hours at that setting.

Different standards makes sense. That is the point of my post, not everyone will have a standard where HD is a huge discriminator for them.


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> All this optimism from you is amusing. I'm increasingly in the Q1/2012 camp.


There is a chirp in the air .. what can i say? :shrug:


----------



## ultralame

I am still running two SD Tivos. They are hacked and I can watch my own downloads on them through my network. We really like the TiVo interface. 

Would I like HD? Sure. But I don't watch sports, so it's not that big of a deal to be able to see John Stewart or Bill O'Reilly in High Def. They are both better looking in SD.

The other options for HD receivers in my area are pretty horrible. Most everyone here has Comcast. (We all know what garbage their DVRs are. Both interface and playback quality.) So I have not had a lot of experience with other equipment.

I did try out the old DirecTV HD units (the HR10s?). Awful. And I will say this: If you have grown used to the TiVo interface, and then you see the garbage that Comcast, AT&T and DTV released, you would retreat back into your cave too.

So at the time, why would I upgrade (making a year long commitment and paying a few $100) for equipment I didn't like? I assumed they would get their sh%t in order within a year.

Then TiVo comes out and says "The new one's coming! All your dreams will come true!". So if you heard that, wouldn't you wait a few months? So I did. What's a couple months?

But while waiting, over Xmas, I saw both a FiOS set and an AT&T UVerse set. And you know what? They were pretty cool. Quick, nice looking, good quality, etc. Not that garbage that Comcast is still peddling to people here in CA (You would think that SF and silicon valley would have good telecom- but you would be wrong).

So now I am thinking- "Wait a minute. If crappy companies like AT&T and Verizon can get their house in order, maybe DirecTV can do it too. And that damn TiVo is never coming."

But then I get on the forums and I see the same thing. Problems with HR2Xs. Can't try out the hardware and get a refund.

If I could go back in time and tell myself in 2009 that there would be no TiVo until 2012, of course I would have upgraded. But no one said "Dude, pick between a TiVo and 3 years of no HD". They were always a couple months away- and would not mind waiting a couple months for HD with a TiVo.

But it's clear now that whatever they bring to market will probably not be here for a year, and will not have all the features I like on the Premiere.

Honestly- the BEST option right now seems to be Comcast + TiVo Premiere with a Boxee/AppleTV/Set Top box next to it. With that I can watch whatever I want, order whatever I want, listen to whatever I want and still have great interfaces. (Google TV + Dish sounded great, but appears to not be what they advertised). Do I like the thought of going to Comcast? Absolutely not. But I'm not going to spend $200 for an HR24 + commit to a year of service and find that my DVR misses shows, reboots constantly, etc.

(I have heard about problems with the new TiVo, but they seem to be subsiding as well as the fact that I hear about problems with the DirecTV hardware).

Anyway, that's my thought process for all of you who think that I chose SD + TiVo over HD + No TiVo. If I had known how long the TiVo would take, I would not have waited.


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> All this optimism from you is amusing. I'm increasingly in the Q1/2012 camp.


I'm in the "It is Vaprware Camp and we will Never see it!!!" :lol:

I have totally lost interest in this Vaporware and I can't believe this Thread still goes on.

Amazing!!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ultralame said:


> I am still running two SD Tivos. They are hacked and I can watch my own downloads on them through my network. We really like the TiVo interface.
> 
> Would I like HD? Sure. But I don't watch sports, so it's not that big of a deal to be able to see John Stewart or Bill O'Reilly in High Def. They are both better looking in SD.
> 
> The other options for HD receivers in my area are pretty horrible. Most everyone here has Comcast. (We all know what garbage their DVRs are. Both interface and playback quality.) So I have not had a lot of experience with other equipment.
> 
> I did try out the old DirecTV HD units (the HR10s?). Awful. And I will say this: If you have grown used to the TiVo interface, and then you see the garbage that Comcast, AT&T and DTV released, you would retreat back into your cave too.
> 
> So at the time, why would I upgrade (making a year long commitment and paying a few $100) for equipment I didn't like? I assumed they would get their sh%t in order within a year.
> 
> Then TiVo comes out and says "The new one's coming! All your dreams will come true!". So if you heard that, wouldn't you wait a few months? So I did. What's a couple months?
> 
> But while waiting, over Xmas, I saw both a FiOS set and an AT&T UVerse set. And you know what? They were pretty cool. Quick, nice looking, good quality, etc. Not that garbage that Comcast is still peddling to people here in CA (You would think that SF and silicon valley would have good telecom- but you would be wrong).
> 
> So now I am thinking- "Wait a minute. If crappy companies like AT&T and Verizon can get their house in order, maybe DirecTV can do it too. And that damn TiVo is never coming."
> 
> But then I get on the forums and I see the same thing. Problems with HR2Xs. Can't try out the hardware and get a refund.
> 
> If I could go back in time and tell myself in 2009 that there would be no TiVo until 2012, of course I would have upgraded. But no one said "Dude, pick between a TiVo and 3 years of no HD". They were always a couple months away- and would not mind waiting a couple months for HD with a TiVo.
> 
> But it's clear now that whatever they bring to market will probably not be here for a year, and will not have all the features I like on the Premiere.
> 
> Honestly- the BEST option right now seems to be Comcast + TiVo Premiere with a Boxee/AppleTV/Set Top box next to it. With that I can watch whatever I want, order whatever I want, listen to whatever I want and still have great interfaces. (Google TV + Dish sounded great, but appears to not be what they advertised). Do I like the thought of going to Comcast? Absolutely not. But I'm not going to spend $200 for an HR24 + commit to a year of service and find that my DVR misses shows, reboots constantly, etc.
> 
> (I have heard about problems with the new TiVo, but they seem to be subsiding as well as the fact that I hear about problems with the DirecTV hardware).
> 
> Anyway, that's my thought process for all of you who think that I chose SD + TiVo over HD + No TiVo. If I had known how long the TiVo would take, I would not have waited.


Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

I don't think the DirecTV/TiVo HD DVR was ever slated to be a few months away. IIRC, the announcement in September 2008 was that it would be released in the second half of 2009 (Link).

Then in September of 2009 it was slated for the spring of 2010 (Link).

Subsequent updates keep pushing it out about 6-12 months. In my mind it was never a few months away. Then again I have an extremely hard time understanding how it could be taking as long as it has...what do I know? :grin:

I was a big supporter of TiVo in the beginning. Everyone has their criteria for what they want. The DirecTV features that the new TiVo will lack kill it for me. I used a TiVo DVR for nearly five years when I made the jump to HD and the HR20-700. I was not happy with the "upgrade" so I felt your pain. I had a few good rants back in '07 (anyone remember my SLB thread ).

Since then the HR2x has come a long way and I can't see anything I used in my old TiVo that would make me switch (not to mention the DirecTV features it would be lacking). I have three DVR's now and, for me at least, it doesn't make any sense to switch.

Good luck in what ever direction you decide to go. I'd recommend staying with DirecTV for you HD needs but then again my options here are limited to Dish, UVerse, and Comcast, neither of which can give me what I have now for the same price (or even at all in the case of UVerse). :grin:

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

June or July ..


----------



## e4123

I was in the "wait for the new DTivo" camp and just got tired of waiting and waiting and waiting. After reading the reviews about the HR24 family and watching HD on my friends TVs, I just decided the lack of "suggestions" and the TIVO interface was just no longer worth the wait. I doubt the DTivo will have anything like the Tivo Premiere features.

I hope the new DTivo blows us all away but somehow I don't see D* allowing its own brand of DVR to be upstaged by TIVO.

Just my $.02


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> June or July ..


That would be a couple of months off then. 

Mike


----------



## Hoosier205

Let's say that the unit is released and the feature set is less than spectacular. For the purposes of this question...say that it turns out to be no better than any of the HR's. That it just lands with a big thud. 

Who comes out looking worse or being more embarrassed...DirecTV or TiVo? Not who should take the most heat, but who is more likely to.


----------



## bonscott87

ultralame said:


> And I will say this: If you have grown used to the TiVo interface, and then you see the garbage that Comcast, AT&T and DTV released, you would retreat back into your cave too.


I had Tivo dating back to 2000. Never have had a problem with the interface for DirecTV, AT&T or WMC.

And welcome to the forum!


----------



## SledgeHammer

Hoosier205 said:


> Let's say that the unit is released and the feature set is less than spectacular. For the purposes of this question...say that it turns out to be no better than any of the HR's. That it just lands with a big thud.
> 
> Who comes out looking worse or being more embarrassed...DirecTV or TiVo? Not who should take the most heat, but who is more likely to.


Well, didn't DirecTV say "Sure, you can make a box, but it must be weak sauce compared to the HR2x boxes"?

And didn't Tivo respond "Ok, cool!"?

So they both deserve the heat.

It most certainly won't land with a thud. That would imply that there is anyone there. There won't be. Its that age old question:

"If a feature stripped Tivo is released ~3 yrs late in a universe where no one cares about them anymore, does it make a noise?"


----------



## Doug Brott

Hoosier205 said:


> Let's say that the unit is released and the feature set is less than spectacular. For the purposes of this question...say that it turns out to be no better than any of the HR's. That it just lands with a big thud.
> 
> Who comes out looking worse or being more embarrassed...DirecTV or TiVo? Not who should take the most heat, but who is more likely to.


I think it will be a non-event and no one will really care enough to be embarrassed.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Hoosier205 said:


> Let's say that the unit is released and the feature set is less than spectacular. For the purposes of this question...say that it turns out to be no better than any of the HR's. That it just lands with a big thud.
> 
> Who comes out looking worse or being more embarrassed...DirecTV or TiVo? Not who should take the most heat, but who is more likely to.





Doug Brott said:


> I think it will be a non-event and no one will really care enough to be embarrassed.


IMHO, I doubt anyone outside TiVo related forums, a few tech sites, or DBS forums will even notice.

Mike


----------



## Hoosier205

Yikes...worse than I thought.


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> June or July ..


With all Due Respect Doug to you and your infinite amount of knowledge, I will Believe It When I See It!!! :lol:


----------



## Richierich

Hoosier205 said:


> Who comes out looking worse or being more embarrassed...DirecTV or TiVo? Not who should take the most heat, but who is more likely to.


Why would Directv be embarrassed? They just developed the Infrastructure and their DVRs are working better than ever and I hardly have one ***** about them.

I think the Embarrassment will all be upon TiVos Shoulders!!!


----------



## Hoosier205

richierich said:


> Why would Directv be embarrassed? They just developed the Infrastructure and their DVRs are working better than ever and I hardly have one ***** about them.
> 
> I think the Embarrassment will all be upon TiVos Shoulders!!!


I agree that is how it should be. I'm just not certain if that is how it will be. If that makes any sense at all...


----------



## bidger

ultralame said:


> I did try out the old DirecTV HD units (the HR10s?). Awful.


Yeah I had an HR10 until I added the HR21. Nearly daily reboots and lack of MPEG 4 HD spelled it's doom. I would know it had rebooted because I'd have to re-enter the code for 30 second skip or it would jump to the end of a recording when I hit the skip-to-tick button. I didn't think it was "awful" like you, but I didn't find it "flawless" either as some do.

FYI the HR10-250 was the HD DVR TiVo designed. Which is why when someone posts "I hate the HRs!!!" I always wonder if the TiVos are included.



ultralame said:


> And I will say this: If you have grown used to the TiVo interface, and then you see the garbage that Comcast, AT&T and DTV released, you would retreat back into your cave too.


I picked up an HR20-700 in the fall of 2006 and there were definitely birthing pains, but from the early part of 2007 onwards it's performed like a pro. To lump it in with POS Cable DVRs doesn't align with my experience.

And the notion that "Well, you don't know TiVo so you don't understand". Pffft...puhlease. I've owned and used Series 1 and 2 standalone TiVos as well as TiVo HD. Series 1 and 2 D-TiVos as well as the HR10-250. I remember UltimateTV owners giving D-TiVo owners crap when they had dual tuners and we were waiting for the upgrade. TiVo's a fine platform, but tell a UTV user or ReplayTV die-hard how superior TiVo is and see how that goes down.

Me personally I find far more times asking why can't TiVo do that when doing simple things like checking the Guide while watching a recording than the reverse. I actually find the W7 Media Center interface superior to both and that's why I signed up for announcements on the release of the HD Homerun Prime. Since the DirecTV tuner card option is off the table, I think I might suspend my DirecTV and see about this.


----------



## tonyd79

ultralame said:


> But while waiting, over Xmas, I saw both a FiOS set and an AT&T UVerse set. And you know what? They were pretty cool. Quick, nice looking, good quality, etc. Not that garbage that Comcast is still peddling to people here in CA (You would think that SF and silicon valley would have good telecom- but you would be wrong).


Gotta amend this here. The Fios DVR may have a WOW factor when you first look at it cause it has pretty colors and gadgety layout but it is not very good as a DVR, or search engine or almost anything. I know. I have one. The guide is lacking. You can get data on shows when you haven't recorded them that you cannot get after you recorded them. There are no tick marks to skip to. Nor, while you are watching something that is still recording can you tell how much time is left in the recording. It has no external drive support and is very limited in space.

While the Fios DVR is much better than the Comcast crap, it is all flash and no sizzle.

We will see how much it improves with the 1.9 release....


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> Gotta amend this here. The Fios DVR may have a WOW factor when you first look at it cause it has pretty colors and gadgety layout but it is not very good as a DVR, or search engine or almost anything. I know. I have one. The guide is lacking. You can get data on shows when you haven't recorded them that you cannot get after you recorded them. There are no tick marks to skip to. Nor, while you are watching something that is still recording can you tell how much time is left in the recording. *It has no external drive support and is very limited in space.*
> 
> While the Fios DVR is much better than the Comcast crap, it is all flash and no sizzle.
> 
> We will see how much it improves with the 1.9 release....


FWIW, my son was able to upgrade both his FiOS DVR's to new 500gb models (3x his previous storage capacity). Not sure if it cost him $40 each or $40 total to do so.


----------



## ATARI

What if DirecTV comes out with the HD GUI for the HRs before the THR is released and the THR has a SD GUI? Who but a die hard TiVotee would want one?


----------



## tonyd79

Steve said:


> FWIW, my son was able to upgrade both his FiOS DVR's to new 500gb models (3x his previous storage capacity). Not sure if it cost him $40 each or $40 total to do so.


They have started rolling out the new DVRs but they are not available in most regions yet.


----------



## P Smith

FYI: DTV start spooling (recently) at 101W tp3 a software for TiVo based DVR: version is 015A, DevID is 0020h, ManufID=100, size is 1F53h 4K blocks( ~ 48 MB expanded).

Here is short log (time is PDT and GMT today):


Code:


[924] -> 08:50:15 03/23/11 Got new info (8D2F). Tp3. PID_0x03BE.
[924] - 3
[924] = 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 0020h-100 15:50:15 03/23/2011
[924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 15:56:39 03/23/2011
[924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:03:35 03/23/2011
[924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:10:32 03/23/2011
[924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:17:29 03/23/2011
[924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:24:26 03/23/2011
[924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:31:23 03/23/2011
[924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:38:20 03/23/2011


----------



## redhot

P Smith said:


> FYI: DTV start spooling (recently) at 101W tp3 a software for TiVo based DVR: version is 015A, DevID is 0020h, ManufID=100, size is 1F53h 4K blocks( ~ 48 MB expanded).
> 
> Here is short log (time is PDT and GMT today):
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [924] -> 08:50:15 03/23/11 Got new info (8D2F). Tp3. PID_0x03BE.
> [924] - 3
> [924] = 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 0020h-100 15:50:15 03/23/2011
> [924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 15:56:39 03/23/2011
> [924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:03:35 03/23/2011
> [924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:10:32 03/23/2011
> [924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:17:29 03/23/2011
> [924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:24:26 03/23/2011
> [924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:31:23 03/23/2011
> [924] + 3 03ED 015A 0104 0C72 7D 0020 00001F53 16:38:20 03/23/2011


Do I see light at the end of the Tivo tunnel?:eek2:


----------



## P Smith

Perhaps gamma testing begin ...


----------



## P Smith

We got official name of it - *THR22-100*.

http://redh.com/dtv/index.php?r=THR


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> We got official name of it - *THR22-100*.
> 
> http://redh.com/dtv/index.php?r=THR


Old news from last September...it was both speculated and had "sitings" back then already...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2579999&postcount=480


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Old news from last September...it was both speculated and had "sitings" back then already...
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2579999&postcount=480


That was a speculation based on UL records, now the info came from REAL streaming software.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> That was a speculation based on UL records, now the info came from REAL streaming software.


I suspect they are both equally reliable.


----------



## P Smith

I suspect your last posts as an attempt to hide your frustration and unwilling to read.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> I suspect your last posts as an attempt to hide your frustration and unwilling to read.


You suspect wrong. 

Have no frustration whatsoever, and read reams of information on this topic for years now.


----------



## cypherx

Is it possible to capture the firmware file and change the header to get it to load on an HR22? I dunno how you would load it... Serial, jtag, USB, IP, etc...

Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


----------



## Tom Robertson

cypherx said:


> Is it possible to capture the firmware file and change the header to get it to load on an HR22? I dunno how you would load it... Serial, jtag, USB, IP, etc...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


Under the category of "anything is possible" with software, I guess the answer is yes.

Under the category of "no hacking discussions at DBStalk", we really can't go there.

If DIRECTV decides to allow existing HR DVRs to download the TiVo varient, they will make it happen.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cypherx

Didn't mean to verge on the edge of "hacking". Not talking about modifying software to get channels you don't pay for. Just curious if there's any way to tell if it is infact the SD GUI or HD GUI. Granted, even if you were able to wedge it on an HR22, the handling of some specific tuning components, eSATA chipset may fail if they are using drivers for different hardware revisions. I'd suspect buggy if anything.

But ok, back on track.... That's a good sign it's out there in the stream. It's still not going to make me want it since DirecTV is going to work on an HDUI of their own.


----------



## Doug Brott

It's the classic GUI - same as all DIRECTV TiVos with perhaps a few small updated features (KidZone, etc.)


----------



## cypherx

Doug Brott said:


> It's the classic GUI - same as all DIRECTV TiVos with perhaps a few small updated features (KidZone, etc.)


Ok. I'll def. wait to see what DirecTV cooks up then.


----------



## codespy

P Smith said:


> That was a speculation based on UL records, now the info came from REAL streaming software.


Good grief Charlie Brown.....UL and they speculate? UL does not rubber stamp stuff they have not seen, and I have been to their facility in Chicago. Pretty amazing.

Try getting UL approval on a piece of electical equipment, or any other independent testing laboratory, as there are many. Not sure you understand the nature of what you are dealing with.

FWIW, the constant streaming, if it is indeed happening, would never have occurred unless the hardware was tested by an independent testing Lab. (okay it can happen if in the process of an testing agency). UL is just one example (They are like a household name). There are many independent testing laboratories besides UL.


----------



## Richierich

cypherx said:


> Is it possible to capture the firmware file and change the header to get it to load on an HR22? I dunno how you would load it... Serial, jtag, USB, IP, etc...


NO!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cypherx said:


> Is it possible to capture the firmware file and change the header to get it to load on an HR22? I dunno how you would load it... Serial, jtag, USB, IP, etc...





richierich said:


> NO!!!


I suspect TiVo has learned from the past and will put more things in place to avoid the wonderful world of hacking.


----------



## kmax

How does the size of the Tivo firmware compare to that of the regular HR series?


----------



## wingrider01

redhot said:


> Do I see light at the end of the Tivo tunnel?:eek2:


It's another train


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't think anyone could answer that for you without breaking some sort of non-disclosure agreement.


----------



## jal

From past history, does anyone know how long it usually is before a product is released to the public once the software shows up in the data stream?


----------



## Doug Brott

jal said:


> From past history, does anyone know how long it usually is before a product is released to the public once the software shows up in the data stream?


The firmware may have been in the stream for weeks. We just noticed it as it's in a location not usually used for firmware.

As for timing, I believe I've already provided a timeline that I think is accurate. I'll let you know if that changes.


----------



## P Smith

kmax said:


> How does the size of the Tivo firmware compare to that of the regular HR series?


You can compare by yourself - check www.redh.com/dtv or re-read post#996.


----------



## cypherx

Well my better, more capable, newer hardware HR24-200 on 0x48f is 16.7 MB, while this "tivo" stream is 31.5 MB. So obviously there is more 'stuff' in the Tivo software. Graphics, bloop sounds, etc... whatever it is, it's almost twice as large. On the older hardware, hopefully the obsolete CPU and memory can handle what tivo throws at it. 

That's still not really that bad though. Considering Firefox 4 on Mac takes about 68 MB of disk space, and it's just a web browser.


----------



## Shades228

cypherx said:


> Well my better, more capable, newer hardware HR24-200 on 0x48f is 16.7 MB, while this "tivo" stream is 31.5 MB. So obviously there is more 'stuff' in the Tivo software. Graphics, bloop sounds, etc... whatever it is, it's almost twice as large. On the older hardware, hopefully the obsolete CPU and memory can handle what tivo throws at it.
> 
> That's still not really that bad though. Considering Firefox 4 on Mac takes about 68 MB of disk space, and it's just a web browser.


It doesn't mean there's more stuff, it means that more data is being changed by the download. This does not equate to more stuff.


----------



## P Smith

cypherx said:


> Is it possible to capture the firmware file and change the header to get it to load on an HR22? I dunno how you would load it... Serial, jtag, USB, IP, etc...


TFTP


----------



## cypherx

So your saying the 16mb or so downloads I do almost every weekend on my HR-24 is just 16mb or so of "changed" programming?

What if the receiver was completely wiped, it would need to download the entire package, not just a differential patch.


----------



## P Smith

TiVo is sending full package, just split by 'slices'.

[Your 16 MB is not exactly 16 MB , but compressed , so it is bigger than that.]


----------



## Doug Brott

OK guys .. now we're getting into detail that we don't need @ DBSTalk .. Let's move along .. Thanks.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> OK guys .. now we're getting into detail that we don't need @ DBSTalk .. Let's move along .. Thanks.


But wait, this is about the only detail I have ever read in my recent memory that is not just speculation about the new DirecTiVo

BTW P Smith, what does TFTP mean? This firmware at least supports the statement about the beta testing.


----------



## P Smith

Sorry, we got first call ... no more tech mambo-jumbo.


----------



## cypherx

:-(. Thats the best part of the discussion.

Oh well, I don't need DirecTivo anyway, unless it's HDUI, has Video on demand, and integrates with MRV. It's been said before it won't have that stuff, so see ya!

Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


----------



## Skyboss

Tom Robertson said:


> If DIRECTV decides to allow existing HR DVRs to download the TiVo varient, they will make it happen.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


They should do this which means they probably won't.


----------



## dragonsblood

is there a website talking about the HR34 box i just heard about it and would like some info on it


----------



## litzdog911

dragonsblood said:


> is there a website talking about the HR34 box i just heard about it and would like some info on it


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=188589&highlight=HMC30


----------



## andunn27

I can assure everyone that has posted here that the product in question does exist. It has and will be worth the wait.


----------



## Richierich

andunn27 said:


> I can assure everyone that has posted here that the product in question does exist. It has and will be worth the wait.


It had better after the 3 year wait and all of the Anticipation but if it doesn't compatible with WHDVR Service then I don't want any part of it. :nono2:


----------



## tonyd79

andunn27 said:


> I can assure everyone that has posted here that the product in question does exist. It has and will be worth the wait.


Most of us know it exists. Nothing is worth the wait, however.


----------



## Doug Brott

andunn27 said:


> I can assure everyone that has posted here that the product in question does exist. It has and will be worth the wait.


No HD for the past few years .. Same tired UI .. extra cost. It will be worth it to some people, but not many.


----------



## Davenlr

If they add the Pandora app from the Tivo Permier, as well as the other media share stuff that doesnt work worth a flip on the HR series, it might be quite popular


----------



## tonyd79

Davenlr said:


> If they add the Pandora app from the Tivo Permier, as well as the other media share stuff that doesnt work worth a flip on the HR series, it might be quite popular


You mean the apps that work flawlessly in just about every Blu Ray player over $80?

I really don't see the need for those apps on a DVR when everyone will have them via Blu Ray in short term.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Davenlr said:


> If they add the Pandora app from the Tivo Permier, as well as the other media share stuff that doesnt work worth a flip on the HR series, it might be quite popular


They aren't really going to implement anything that competes with DTV's ridiculously overpriced PPVs and VOD service.


----------



## grassfeeder

the one thing that has me hesitating to sign up for DirecTV and ditch this dying Frontier service is the fact that I don't want to buy into technology month from a box like this being released and instantly behind the ball. Wish there was more detail about it's release....


----------



## Davenlr

SledgeHammer said:


> They aren't really going to implement anything that competes with DTV's ridiculously overpriced PPVs and VOD service.


Pandora does not compete with anything DirecTv offers. It is a totally unique audio streaming service, in that it learns what you like and hate via Thumbs UP and Thumbs DOWN buttons, just like Tivo Suggestions.


----------



## sigma1914

grassfeeder said:


> the one thing that has me hesitating to sign up for DirecTV and ditch this dying Frontier service is the fact that I don't want to buy into technology month from a box like this being released and instantly behind the ball. Wish there was more detail about it's release....


But the Directivo is & will be far behind the HR24s technology wise.


----------



## bonscott87

grassfeeder said:


> the one thing that has me hesitating to sign up for DirecTV and ditch this dying Frontier service is the fact that I don't want to buy into technology month from a box like this being released and instantly behind the ball. Wish there was more detail about it's release....


Well, since this new DirecTivo HD box will be at least a generation behind the current HR24 from DirecTV I'm not sure how you'd be behind the ball. Only reason to wait is if you love the Tivo UI and that is more important to you then anything else.


----------



## Doug Brott

Probably June or July release (subject to change)
No MRV
I think, no ToGo
No Netflix
Might work with TiVo iPad app (don't think so)
two 30-minute buffers (DLB)
likely extra cost (initial and per month - but I'm not sure)
Classic TiVo UI (not HD)
Support for MPEG4
TiVo KidZone
TiVo Swivel Search
Peanut Remote
same hardware as HR22-100

This is what I know (or think I know, I don't have one) and is subject to change. As I've stated in the past, it's basically an HR10-250 with MPEG4 support. There will be very little difference.

If you've got to have the TiVo interface, you will have that option soon, but I suspect many of the folks @ DBSTalk will prefer MRV to TiVo. I expect the TiVo to be a decent set top box and if you are a diehard TiVo user, you should like it.


----------



## grassfeeder

bonscott87 said:


> Well, since this new DirecTivo HD box will be at least a generation behind the current HR24 from DirecTV I'm not sure how you'd be behind the ball. Only reason to wait is if you love the Tivo UI and that is more important to you then anything else.


Sorry Scott......I totally forgot what thread I was in.....I was thinking of the new HMC30 box supposedly being released soon. Tivo is cool and all, but I'm not all about it....


----------



## codespy

Doug Brott said:


> Probably June or July release (subject to change)
> No MRV
> I think, no ToGo
> No Netflix
> Might work with TiVo iPad app (don't think so)
> two 30-minute buffers (DLB)
> likely extra cost (initial and per month - but I'm not sure)
> Classic TiVo UI (not HD)
> Support for MPEG4
> TiVo KidZone
> TiVo Swivel Search
> Peanut Remote
> same hardware as HR22-100
> 
> This is what I know (or think I know, I don't have one) and is subject to change. As I've stated in the past, it's basically an HR10-250 with MPEG4 support. There will be very little difference.
> 
> If you've got to have the TiVo interface, you will have that option soon, but I suspect many of the folks @ DBSTalk will prefer MRV to TiVo. I expect the TiVo to be a decent set top box and if you are a diehard TiVo user, you should like it.


WOW! amazing! I can't find this information anywhere else besides this place. And its so much more than the press release from almost 3 years ago.


----------



## inkahauts

andunn27 said:


> I can assure everyone that has posted here that the product in question does exist. It has and will be worth the wait.


Maybe for some, but I would NEVER wait that long for an HD DVR. And frankly, I'd never wait that long for a UI that didn't do so many things that another currently available units will do, like Boolean Searches autorecords, and MRV. Those two things are far more valuable than anything tivo can bring to he table right now.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> [*]Peanut Remote


So, I guess 100% no on the QWERTY remote? I'm not sure how thats implemented, but would that require something on the hardware side (in terms of the IR reciever?) or is that strictly software?

Kind of silly of DTV / Tivo (at the very least Tivo) not to support that. Its $75 - $90 a pop in the pocket of Tivo and they already have the code for it done.

The QWERTY wouldn't sell me on the box if it required a higher monthly fee. It ain't worth that much to me .

If it was just the one time box & remote purchase, possibly.

I don't think theres anything Tivo could offer me to make me pay a higher monthly.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

SledgeHammer said:


> So, I guess 100% no on the QWERTY remote? I'm not sure how thats implemented, but would that require something on the hardware side (in terms of the IR reciever?) or is that strictly software?
> 
> Kind of silly of DTV / Tivo (at the very least Tivo) not to support that. Its $75 - $90 a pop in the pocket of Tivo and they already have the code for it done.
> 
> The QWERTY wouldn't sell me on the box if it required a higher monthly fee. It ain't worth that much to me .
> 
> If it was just the one time box & remote purchase, possibly.
> 
> I don't think theres anything Tivo could offer me to make me pay a higher monthly.


I wonder if you will be able to use this. Tivo Slide Remote


----------



## RMBittner

I'm a newbie here -- and not yet a DirecTV subscriber -- but I _am_ a huge TiVo fan and wanted to comment on that.

We're a two-TiVo family -- an SD2 and a Series3HD unit -- on digital cable. We have had TiVo for just over a decade, and we absolutely LOVE the UI and the remote; it's no surprise why the latter has won design awards. And even though our regional cable provider can't compete with DirecTV in terms of channels -- especially HD channels (we currently get about 20 and there are some real losers in that mix) -- we remain there solely because we love the TiVo UI so much. If the rumored/fabled DirecTiVo HD units ever arrive, we'll jump immediately.

In addition to the extremely user-friendly remote, we especially love these two features: auto-recorded Suggestions, which have continually delivered shows we like that we wouldn't have discovered on our own, and the ability to have virtually unlimited Season Passes for our favorites shows. (As I understand it, DirecTV limits you to 50; we currently have over 100. Do correct me if I'm wrong about the DTV limits...)

Sure, we're probably in a minority. And, yes, I can understand why some would be baffled that we're "content" (not really!) to get fewer channel options in favor of a more appealing UI. But I just wanted to let folks here know that, yes, there are some people who love the TiVo interface so much, they're willing to "settle" for fewer viewing options.

That said, almost every week I fill up my DirecTV shopping cart with my ideal package and do everything but pull the switch. I cannot wait -- but, obviously, I must -- for the new DirecTiVo HD units to ship. But until they do, we're "settling" for the TiVo/Cable experience.

Bob


----------



## Steve

SledgeHammer said:


> So, I guess 100% no on the QWERTY remote? I'm not sure how thats implemented, but would that require something on the hardware side (in terms of the IR reciever?) or is that strictly software?
> 
> Kind of silly of DTV / Tivo (at the very least Tivo) not to support that. Its $75 - $90 a pop in the pocket of Tivo and they already have the code for it done.
> 
> The QWERTY wouldn't sell me on the box if it required a higher monthly fee. It ain't worth that much to me .
> 
> If it was just the one time box & remote purchase, possibly.
> 
> I don't think theres anything Tivo could offer me to make me pay a higher monthly.


I'd be surprised if the QWERTY remote was included, because the street price on it ranges from $60-$90, so too costly to be a "throw in", IMHO.

I'd also be surprised if it was not a purchasable option, tho. Maybe not from DirecTV, but from TiVO or a third-party.


----------



## tonyd79

RMBittner said:


> I'm a newbie here -- and not yet a DirecTV subscriber -- but I _am_ a huge TiVo fan and wanted to comment on that.
> 
> We're a two-TiVo family -- an SD2 and a Series3HD unit -- on digital cable. We have had TiVo for just over a decade, and we absolutely LOVE the UI and the remote; it's no surprise why the latter has won design awards. And even though our regional cable provider can't compete with DirecTV in terms of channels -- especially HD channels (we currently get about 20 and there are some real losers in that mix) -- we remain there solely because we love the TiVo UI so much. If the rumored/fabled DirecTiVo HD units ever arrive, we'll jump immediately.
> 
> In addition to the extremely user-friendly remote, we especially love these two features: auto-recorded Suggestions, which have continually delivered shows we like that we wouldn't have discovered on our own, and the ability to have virtually unlimited Season Passes for our favorites shows. (As I understand it, DirecTV limits you to 50; we currently have over 100. Do correct me if I'm wrong about the DTV limits...)
> 
> Sure, we're probably in a minority. And, yes, I can understand why some would be baffled that we're "content" (not really!) to get fewer channel options in favor of a more appealing UI. But I just wanted to let folks here know that, yes, there are some people who love the TiVo interface so much, they're willing to "settle" for fewer viewing options.
> 
> That said, almost every week I fill up my DirecTV shopping cart with my ideal package and do everything but pull the switch. I cannot wait -- but, obviously, I must -- for the new DirecTiVo HD units to ship. But until they do, we're "settling" for the TiVo/Cable experience.
> 
> Bob


Welcome to the forum!

I had three Tivos over my DVR lifetime. My first DVR was a DirecTivo. My first HD DVR was a DirecTivo and I had a Series 3 for over a year and a half with Comcast digital.

I loved Tivo at first and was surprised how little I used it when I had my Series 3 side by side with an HR20 and how I grew to like the HR20 more and more and got more annoyed by the Tivo.

Different strokes for different folks. You may like the DirecTV DVRs, you may not. With whole home you easily get by the 50 series limit although I must admit I was never a fan of suggestions on the Tivo and kept the autorecord of them turned off.

But if the Tivo makes you happy, welcome aboard the satellite train.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Scott Kocourek said:


> I wonder if you will be able to use this. Tivo Slide Remote


Yeah, thats what I meant by "QWERTY remote" 

Last word I heard was that it will NOT be supported on the DTivo.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Steve said:


> I'd be surprised if the QWERTY remote was included, because the street price on it ranges from $60-$90, so too costly to be a "throw in", IMHO.
> 
> I'd also be surprised if it was not a purchasable option, tho. Maybe not from DirecTV, but from TiVO or a third-party.


I wouldn't expect it for free. However, last word from Doug (dunno if that has changed) was that it wouldn't be supported -- at least initially.

I was wondering if that had changed.


----------



## Athenian

andunn27 said:


> I can assure everyone that has posted here that the product in question does exist. It has and will be worth the wait.


That's definitely an individual call. We waited for three years: during which time two of our DirecTV TiVos failed...as did a used one we bought to replace one of the failed units. We were so frustrated with the R15s we were given to replace them that we suspended our DirecTV service to try out U-Verse. During that time we (finally) upgraded to HD.

The U-verse promotion runs out in 10 days -- as does our suspension on DirecTV -- and we have decided to bite the bullet and get an HR 2X DVR. We definitely prefer the TiVo UI (which is exponentially more intuitive for seniors) and we abhor the clunky DirecTV remotes but we do not have a real alternative _today_ and are not in a position to wait even another week. Also, having waited for over 3 years for MRV, we now hear that the new DirecTiVo unit won't provide it. So... it may be worth the wait for you, but not for us.

Given the DirecTV/TiVo track record, we figure that our new 2-year contract will just about be over by the time there's a DirecTiVo with MRV.


----------



## Skyboss

Doug Brott said:


> Probably June or July release (subject to change)
> No MRV *(FAIL)*
> I think, no ToGo
> No Netflix
> Might work with TiVo iPad app (don't think so)
> two 30-minute buffers (DLB)
> likely extra cost (initial and per month - but I'm not sure)
> Classic TiVo UI (not HD)
> Support for MPEG4
> TiVo KidZone
> TiVo Swivel Search
> Peanut Remote
> same hardware as HR22-100
> 
> This is what I know (or think I know, I don't have one) and is subject to change. As I've stated in the past, it's basically an HR10-250 with MPEG4 support. There will be very little difference.
> 
> If you've got to have the TiVo interface, you will have that option soon, but I suspect many of the folks @ DBSTalk will prefer MRV to TiVo. I expect the TiVo to be a decent set top box and if you are a diehard TiVo user, you should like it.


No MRV is a disaster. Even Cable has moved into MRV.


----------



## Steve

SledgeHammer said:


> I wouldn't expect it for free. However, last word from Doug (dunno if that has changed) was that it wouldn't be supported -- at least initially.


I missed that. Doug certainly has better access to that info than me, so ignore my speculation.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

*New Tivobox short list:*

HR22-100 + Tivo UI + MPEG4 support + Peanut remote + extra fee *- MRV*


----------



## Sixto

If I was TiVo management ... I'd ... 1) get the new box out the door ... 2) total dedication to delivering functionality to get share of the 19+ million subscribers ... get the TiVo best and brightest in a room and figure out a way to excite DirecTV customers for your product ... a captive audience of 19+ million ... get the rumored streaming to work ... find a way to allow 2Go ... figure it out ... something to entice subscribers for your box (other then the UI).

May be a tough spot, especially if streaming and/or 2Go are not possible ... but if I was them I'd push real hard to get real creative real quick, once a basic platform is debugged and shipping, with easy access to every household in the U.S., but you need something compelling.


----------



## Athenian

Sixto said:


> May be a tough spot, especially if streaming and/or 2Go are not possible ... but if I was them I'd push real hard to get real creative real quick, once a basic platform is debugged and shipping, with easy access to every household in the U.S., but you need something compelling.


I think the obstacles to streaming and "ToGo" are with DirecTV and not TiVo. Aside from the obvious competition with PPV, content providers are all concerned with DRM and making it harder and harder to offload recordings to anything.

Getting the TiVo interface (with it's superior remote) plus MRV and viewing media on the LAN would be enough for us. The problem though, is that's probably not enough for DirecTV -- they probably want inclusion in the DirecTV "exlusive" features that we do not (and never will) use.


----------



## adam1115

Might be ok for the kids TV, I do miss kidzone.

Too bad it can't work with DirecTV MRV..


----------



## SledgeHammer

Skyboss said:


> No MRV is a disaster. Even Cable has moved into MRV.


Not everybody cares about MRV . Yeah, alot of people on DBStalk do, but thats a tiny subset of the DTV universe. Most people aren't tech savy enough to use it or even know its there. However, not supporting it is definitely a disaster for people who do care about it .

Then again, if you've already got your house up on MRV, why would you even bother switching to the tivo?


----------



## jdspencer

I was a DirecTV with Tivo user for many years Sony Sat T60, Philips DSR6000 and then the HR10-250. But, had to move to HD DVRs when DirecV went to MPEG4 HD and the DirecTV HDTiVo wasn't yet available.
I would be hard pressed to get back into a TiVo at this moment. From what I see from the list above, there isn't anything there to entice me back.


----------



## Tom Robertson

SledgeHammer said:


> Not everybody cares about MRV . Yeah, alot of people on DBStalk do, but thats a tiny subset of the DTV universe. Most people aren't tech savy enough to use it or even know its there. However, not supporting it is definitely a disaster for people who do care about it .
> 
> Then again, if you've already got your house up on MRV, why would you even bother switching to the tivo?


I've talked to a couple of installers; when they mention, "would you like to watch stuff in the bedroom you've recorded in the living room?", the MRV upsells happen often. Sure, DBStalk'ers knew to ask, but cagey sales works very well for MRV> 

Is no MRV a disaster for TiVo? (As in any more of a disaster for the oft delayed TiVo?) Disaster seems strong as a phrase for the MRV part of the TiVo situation. I'm sure it will cut into sales, but I'm not sure disaster is quite right. (And I could be wrong.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Athenian

SledgeHammer said:


> Not everybody cares about MRV . Yeah, alot of people on DBStalk do, but thats a tiny subset of the DTV universe.


Actually that's not true. Most users don't know what to call it...they just ask how to see what's recorded at one TV on another. It was the most requested feature for DirecTiVos from almost the very first day. Savvy users hacked them primarily for that.

And regular TiVo users jump to it as soon as soon as they buy their second unit. Most don't know anything about LANs and don't want to wait so they do it on the cheap with wireless adapters.

MRV is a major selling point for U-Verse right now (as far as I'm concerned, it's just about the only thing it has going for it) -- people see the ads about watching from room to room and start to think "I want that".

Not including MRV in the Whole Home DVR scheme is a big marketing mistake.


----------



## RobertE

SledgeHammer said:


> Not everybody cares about MRV . Yeah, alot of people on DBStalk do, but thats a tiny subset of the DTV universe. Most people aren't tech savy enough to use it or even know its there. However, not supporting it is definitely a disaster for people who do care about it .
> 
> Then again, if you've already got your house up on MRV, why would you even bother switching to the tivo?


You'd be surprised as to what the take rate of MRV is for new customers. Just about the only time someone is not getting it with their HD service is if they are only getting one tv setup. If I had to put a number on it, 8/10 are getting MRV, might even be 9/10.

While this box will be great for the crazy few dozen that have deprived themselves of HD for years, for the most part, it will DOA upon release.


----------



## Darcaine

So the Dtivo will use the worst hardware of the HR family, have a fraction of the buffer space for the DLB, lack MRV, lack exclusive Tivo features (toGo), be saddled with an SD UI, etc, and for all of these downgrades (or just lateral-grade in the case of the UI) from my current HD DVR, I get the privilege of spending more money per month on it.

Not really seeing the upside to Directivo anymore. I loved my original Directivo box, and hated the HD DVR when I first got it, but it's come a long ways since then. I'd expect DTivo to at least be comparable. But meh, I'll just stick to my HR and wait for the next generation of DVRs to hit.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Tom Robertson said:


> I've talked to a couple of installers; when they mention, "would you like to watch stuff in the bedroom you've recorded in the living room?", the MRV upsells happen often. Sure, DBStalk'ers knew to ask, but cagey sales works very well for MRV>
> 
> Is no MRV a disaster for TiVo? (As in any more of a disaster for the oft delayed TiVo?) Disaster seems strong as a phrase for the MRV part of the TiVo situation. I'm sure it will cut into sales, but I'm not sure disaster is quite right. (And I could be wrong.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Ah, good point.


----------



## SledgeHammer

RobertE said:


> You'd be surprised as to what the take rate of MRV is for new customers. Just about the only time someone is not getting it with their HD service is if they are only getting one tv setup. If I had to put a number on it, 8/10 are getting MRV, might even be 9/10.
> 
> While this box will be great for the crazy few dozen that have deprived themselves of HD for years, for the most part, it will DOA upon release.


I must be that 1/10 then . I would much rather just walk down the stairs and save myself $3/month or however much MRV costs. I don't really care about the $3/month, I make an good living. I just don't think its worth the money to save me a 3 second walk. If it was free? Sure, I'd hook it up. I still probably wouldn't use it since the good TV and home theater is downstairs. I have OTA hooked up (probably spent ~$100 or so on the equipment) and don't even really use that anymore either.

I guess if you have 4 or 5 people in your household and you all just randomly record random stuff on whatever DVR you feel like and then randomly watch random stuff on random TVs, then yeah, it could be helpful .


----------



## SledgeHammer

Darcaine said:


> So the Dtivo will use the worst hardware of the HR family, have a fraction of the buffer space for the DLB, lack MRV, lack exclusive Tivo features (toGo), be saddled with an SD UI, etc, and for all of these downgrades (or just lateral-grade in the case of the UI) from my current HD DVR, I get the privilege of spending more money per month on it.
> 
> Not really seeing the upside to Directivo anymore. I loved my original Directivo box, and hated the HD DVR when I first got it, but it's come a long ways since then. I'd expect DTivo to at least be comparable. But meh, I'll just stick to my HR and wait for the next generation of DVRs to hit.


The HR2x boxes have HD GUIs? Since when? Mine doesn't.

I was one of those who didn't want the early HR2x boxes because it didn't have DLB. I've long since moved on from DLB. One slip of the remote and you wipe your buffer. I just use the record button now. Its alot easier and fail safe .

I definitely prefer the HR2x inlaid video in the menus vs. the Tivos useless overlaid menus.

Other then that, its pretty much all the same to me.

I've got my button presses, search methology, remote control by feel, etc all dialed in for the HR2x boxes now, so I would be hard pressed to switch.

I would switch if it gave me something that I wanted, but probably not if they charge extra per month. I don't think there is anything I would want that could make me cough up more $$$ / month for what I already consider overpriced service.


----------



## ndole

SledgeHammer said:


> *The HR2x boxes have HD GUIs? Since when? Mine doesn't.*
> 
> I was one of those who didn't want the early HR2x boxes because it didn't have DLB. I've long since moved on from DLB. One slip of the remote and you wipe your buffer. I just use the record button now. Its alot easier and fail safe .
> 
> I definitely prefer the HR2x inlaid video in the menus vs. the Tivos useless overlaid menus.
> 
> Other then that, its pretty much all the same to me.
> 
> I've got my button presses, search methology, remote control by feel, etc all dialed in for the HR2x boxes now, so I would be hard pressed to switch.
> 
> I would switch if it gave me something that I wanted, but probably not if they charge extra per month. I don't think there is anything I would want that could make me cough up more $$$ / month for what I already consider overpriced service.


No, but they will. *Soon*. The THR22-100 may never see one.


----------



## SledgeHammer

ndole_mbnd said:


> No, but they will. *Soon*. The THR22-100 may never see one.


Haven't they been saying that we would get a HD GUI for a few years now?

Quickie Poll: Which will see the light of day first? 

1) The new DTivo
2) HD GUI on any DTV box
3) Duke Nukem Forever

My money is on #3 :grin: since that seems to have gotten an official release date of June 14th.


----------



## ndole

SledgeHammer said:


> Haven't they been saying that we would get a HD GUI for a few years now?
> 
> Quickie Poll: Which will see the light of day first?
> 
> 1) The new DTivo
> 2) HD GUI on any DTV box
> 3) Duke Nukem Forever
> 
> My money is on #3 :grin:


That depends on your definition of "The light of day". #3 is slated to be the soonest I think, with #2 at a close second (according to Doug's approximation). The new Tivo _might_ be released before DNF, but you'll actually be able to buy DNF the same day it's released.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SledgeHammer said:


> Haven't they been saying that we would get a HD GUI for a few years now?


Years? Maybe some have speculated that long...but last year is the first time I can recall anyone talking about it coming in 2011 some time.

As for your short poll...I anticipate a new DirecTV HD GUI will likely see the light of day before the next HD Tivobox.


----------



## Steve

SledgeHammer said:


> [...] I guess if you have 4 or 5 people in your household and you all just randomly record random stuff on whatever DVR you feel like and then randomly watch random stuff on random TVs, then yeah, it could be helpful .


Don't forget that for a family of 4-5 viewers, 2-3 networked DVR's gives them 4-6 simultaneous recording tuners, greatly reducing the chance of a recording conflict, along with a combined 200-300 hours of HD storage. That's a big deal in a home where mom, dad and the kids may all have different show tastes.


----------



## Darcaine

SledgeHammer said:


> The HR2x boxes have HD GUIs? Since when? Mine doesn't.
> 
> I was one of those who didn't want the early HR2x boxes because it didn't have DLB. I've long since moved on from DLB. One slip of the remote and you wipe your buffer. I just use the record button now. Its alot easier and fail safe .
> 
> I definitely prefer the HR2x inlaid video in the menus vs. the Tivos useless overlaid menus.
> 
> Other then that, its pretty much all the same to me.
> 
> I've got my button presses, search methology, remote control by feel, etc all dialed in for the HR2x boxes now, so I would be hard pressed to switch.
> 
> I would switch if it gave me something that I wanted, but probably not if they charge extra per month. I don't think there is anything I would want that could make me cough up more $$$ / month for what I already consider overpriced service.


Yeah, notice this part of what I said? "and for all of these downgrades (*or just lateral-grade in the case of the UI) *from my current HD DVR".

Meaning the UI doesn't get upgraded, or downgraded.

And yeah, I feel exactly the same way, I'd absolutely pay more if it was an upgrade. But whats being presented here is a significant downgrade from what I already have.


----------



## wingrider01

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Years? Maybe some have speculated that long...but last year is the first time I can recall anyone talking about it coming in 2011 some time.
> 
> As for your short poll...I anticipate a new DirecTV HD GUI will likely see the light of day before the next HD Tivobox.


Suspect the next presidential election wil be over with before the unit is seen at CES - not released, just seen at CES


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott stated June or July and I find most everything he says or predicts is pretty much Right On so I would be surprised if it is later than July when the New Directivo Debuts.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

wingrider01 said:


> Suspect the next presidential election wil be over with before the unit is seen at CES - not released, just seen at CES


After two years in a row of several of us personally attempting to see/learn something about the next HD DirecTivo DVR at CES....I'd be less than shocked if that actually happened.


----------



## SledgeHammer

richierich said:


> Doug Brott stated June or July and I find most everything he says or predicts is pretty much Right On so I would be surprised if it is later than July when the New Directivo Debuts.


He was saying April for a long time and that fell through. June / July is still a long way aways... plenty of time for more delays.


----------



## Richierich

SledgeHammer said:


> He was saying April for a long time and that fell through. June / July is still a long way aways... plenty of time for more delays.


He never said it was set in stone but just a tentative date and that normally comes to him from a pretty good and reliable source but things do change and schedules do slip due to unforeseen circumstances.


----------



## Tom Robertson

For a long time, Doug, Stuart, and occasionally I give out our best guesses. And they have been guesses. 

As we see, hear, sniff the things in the wind, our guesses are more educated...but we also know that even the wind can be optimistic...  (In other words, things happen and can change schedules.) 

I've pretty much stopped guessing. The old standby of "double the estimate, unless it's TiVo, then quadruple" doesn't even seem to apply anymore. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## tonyd79

Tom Robertson said:


> I've pretty much stopped guessing. The old standby of "double the estimate, unless it's TiVo, then quadruple" doesn't even seem to apply anymore.


New standard.

Play, pause, rewind, skip back to tick, pause, play, rewind.....then finally skip to end.


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> Doug Brott stated June or July and I find most everything he says or predicts is pretty much Right On so I would be surprised if it is later than July when the New Directivo Debuts.


This is pure speculation or conjecture or whatever people want to call it, but I figured it would not be too far off from some of what have been said here

In the latest TiVo v. Verizon and/or ATT patent infringement cases, TiVo had asked the court to delay the next round of hearings to June from early April.

If someone is even a little bit inclined to entertain the idea that the US rollout of the new DVRs might have some to do with the outcome of the litigations, specifically the outcome of the en banc decision in the TiVo v. E* case, then you have some interesting coincidence to ponder on.


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> This is pure speculation or conjecture or whatever people want to call it, but I figured it would not be too far off from some of what have been said here
> 
> In the latest TiVo v. Verizon and/or ATT patent infringement cases, TiVo had asked the court to delay the next round of hearings to June from early April.
> 
> If someone is even a little bit inclined to entertain the idea that the US rollout of the new DVRs might have some to do with the outcome of the litigations, specifically the outcome of the en banc decision in the TiVo v. E* case, then you have some interesting coincidence to ponder on.


What on earth could all the lawsuits have to do with a directvivo? I see no correlation.


----------



## harsh

inkahauts said:


> What on earth could all the lawsuits have to do with a directvivo? I see no correlation.


It might have something to do with the re-opening of the TiVo revenue stream should they prevail.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> This is pure speculation or conjecture or whatever people want to call it, but I figured it would not be too far off from some of what have been said here
> 
> In the latest TiVo v. Verizon and/or ATT patent infringement cases, TiVo had asked the court to delay the next round of hearings to June from early April.
> 
> If someone is even a little bit inclined to entertain the idea that the US rollout of the new DVRs might have some to do with the outcome of the litigations, specifically the outcome of the en banc decision in the TiVo v. E* case, then you have some interesting coincidence to ponder on.


!rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling



inkahauts said:


> What on earth could all the lawsuits have to do with a directvivo? I see no correlation.


It has nothing, zero, nada, zilch to do with the lawsuit. Remember, TiVo has been trying to get this box out since December 2009. I know for a fact that they have been working on this project. There is no way that TiVo is waiting around on the DIRECTVTiVo to time it with the TiVo/DISH litigation. Besides, the TiVo/DISH litigation has had so many false starts and false finishes that they couldn't even time it if they wanted to.

Besides, since DIRECTV is the company responsible for marketing and selling the product this makes even less sense.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> It might have something to do with the re-opening of the TiVo revenue stream should they prevail.


TiVo and DIRECTV have a signed agreement. The revenue stream is already determined regardless of the TiVo/DISH outcome.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo and DIRECTV have a signed agreement. The revenue stream is already determined regardless of the TiVo/DISH outcome.


That's only true if you bring logic and reality into the discussion. :lol:

Mike


----------



## SledgeHammer

Well, Tivo has continuously won in court every step of the way against Dish. Too bad that it pretty much bankrupted Tivo because they didn't get as much money out of it as they expected. The lawyer fees were much larger then what they won (assuming Dish runs out of appeals and actually pays the money). Tivo may have been right, but Dish has much deeper pockets .


----------



## Shades228

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, Tivo has continuously won in court every step of the way against Dish. Too bad that it pretty much bankrupted Tivo because they didn't get as much money out of it as they expected. The lawyer fees were much larger then what they won (assuming Dish runs out of appeals and actually pays the money). Tivo may have been right, but Dish has much deeper pockets .


You should go read the dish tivo lawsuit thread. I can guarantee whichever side wins will immediately sue for lawyer fees. However that lawsuit has nothing to do with this thread unless there is proof out there that the lawsuit has stopped the beta testing going on currently.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Shades228 said:


> You should go read the dish tivo lawsuit thread. I can guarantee whichever side wins will immediately sue for lawyer fees. However that lawsuit has nothing to do with this thread unless there is proof out there that the lawsuit has stopped the beta testing going on currently.


Why would it? Dish is the patent infringing party.

Well, thats not entirely true... the lawsuit *HAS* impacted the DTivo and Tivo in general. It ate up most and/or all of Tivos resources.


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## jacmyoung

"SledgeHammer" said:


> Why would it? Dish is the patent infringing party.
> 
> Well, thats not entirely true... the lawsuit *HAS* impacted the DTivo and Tivo in general. It ate up most and/or all of Tivos resources.


Well that is one possible connection why the delay, the issue of what the resources were used for.

On the other hand TiVo has on the record stated they would remove the poison pill, the timing of the removal of the PP will be directly tied to the timing of the en banc ruling. One possible reason to remove the PP is to anticipate a buyout.

If TiVo is bought out, would that have any impact to this DirecTiVo agreement? Not saying this is a likely outcome, but facts are facts.


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## tonyd79

jacmyoung said:


> If TiVo is bought out, would that have any impact to this DirecTiVo agreement? Not saying this is a likely outcome, but facts are facts.


Stretching. Companies get bought out all the time and prior agreements remain in place. I deal with this often in my business. Software we use that works with Company A gets bought out by Company A's prime competitor. Agreements stay in place. You can't just ditch contracts because you got bought unless there is a clause in the contract that states that.


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## hdtvfan0001

tonyd79 said:


> Stretching. Companies get bought out all the time and prior agreements remain in place. I deal with this often in my business. Software we use that works with Company A gets bought out by Company A's prime competitor. Agreements stay in place. You can't just ditch contracts because you got bought unless there is a clause in the contract that states that.


At one time years ago...many of us may have envisioned TiVo being a huge corporation.

I'm now wondering if its 4 guys in a garage or mom's basement someplace...the way they operate...


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## Shades228

SledgeHammer said:


> Why would it? Dish is the patent infringing party.
> 
> Well, thats not entirely true... the lawsuit *HAS* impacted the DTivo and Tivo in general. It ate up most and/or all of Tivos resources.


There isn't any proof of that and I'm not buying it. TiVo launched TiVo Premier a long with new hardware during the same time frame.

If we want speculation I think they knew the ship had sailed with DIRECTV being the bread winner for them and focused on a product that they could market to people who they knew had horrible dvr's. They could reach more people with the Premier than they can with DIRECTV. The followed where they thought the money was.


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## jacmyoung

"tonyd79" said:


> Stretching. Companies get bought out all the time and prior agreements remain in place. I deal with this often in my business. Software we use that works with Company A gets bought out by Company A's prime competitor. Agreements stay in place. You can't just ditch contracts because you got bought unless there is a clause in the contract that states that.


Again I don't want people to misunderstand, I am not speculating that TiVo will be bought out, but if some company buys TiVo and decides not to support this new DVR for whatever the reason, maybe because it competes with DirecTV for example, would it not allowed to terminate the agreement, if DirecTV has no objection?

I can see a few possible candidates, a cableco, ATT, even Dish.


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## P Smith

I'm bet it would be a lot of discussions behind closed doors with cohort of lawyers from both sides ...
For sure we will not inform of details in that talk, perhaps will see short press release after ending.


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## ndole

P Smith said:


> I'm bet it would be a lot of discussions behind closed doors with cohort of lawyers from both sides ...
> For sure we will not inform of details in that talk, perhaps will see short press release after ending.


<OT>
I can't stand lawyers. Especially those slimy trial lawyers 
</OT>


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## CuriousMark

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, Tivo has continuously won in court every step of the way against Dish. Too bad that it pretty much bankrupted Tivo because they didn't get as much money out of it as they expected. The lawyer fees were much larger then what they won (assuming Dish runs out of appeals and actually pays the money). Tivo may have been right, but Dish has much deeper pockets .


TiVo has won and banked over 100 million dollars so far. Their total legal expenses since the start of the Dish lawsuit were recently reported to be in the 30 million range. So actually, the lawsuit has actually been TiVo's single most profitable venture to date. If TiVo wins the en Bank, they may be adding another 200 million to that bank account.


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## Doug Brott

Thank goodness this thread is going to be replaced in two days .. It is the DIRECTV TiVo thread .. not the DISH and TiVo are making the lawyers rich thread .. Please :backtotop


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## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Thank goodness this thread is going to be replaced in two days .. It is the DIRECTV TiVo thread .. not the DISH and TiVo are making the lawyers rich thread .. Please :backtotop


I thought this thread is in a large part trying to understand why the delay? It seems to me many here like to impose one and only one possible reason, that is TiVo's technical ineptitude. It is true there is a history to support such argument, but there are many facts that disputed such assertion too.

TiVo rolled out its Premier DVR, a much more complex DVR than what has been described of the new DirecTiVo, its new DVRs also rolled out in UK fairly quickly after the deal was struck. While there might be technical issues with this new DirecTiVo to deal with, it is not entirely a new development, DirecTV and TiVo already had several very successful DirecTiVo products, the only thing missing as far as I know is MPEG4. To insist TiVo, a DVR pioneer, is so inept in making a DVR work, is also a slap in DirecTV's face for not recognizing such astonishing ineptitude.

Many facts were provided to support the speculation that things other than mere technical incompetence might be at play. Such speculation may very well be proven wrong in the end, but for now simply dismiss it without offering any supporting evidence why such speculation is baseless, does not make the dismissal very convincing.


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## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> I thought this thread is in a large part trying to understand why the delay?


Not really.

The delay is years old and growing, so the reasons behind it mean little at this point. The legal wars between Dish and TiVo have been in the news for a long time as well - not much new there either.

In the end...there is a contractual agreement between DirecTV and TiVo to product a new HD DVR. Previous posts have indicated it'll be an HR22-100 hardware foundation, supports MPEG-4, has the TiVo software on it, and will likely carry an extra fee.

As far as much beyond that...the only speculation left is learning when will it surface. :shrug:


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