# Am I the Only One Who Finds It Incredible?



## tds4182 (Jul 17, 2003)

Maybe I'm just weird (there are already plenty of people who think so) in my approach to things, but I feel the need to ask this question:

Given the relatively high cost & low performance of the Dish 921s and the fact that there is a forum here (with thousands of posts) devoted exclusively to 921 performance issues, how can there be much of/any market for this product?

Ford, GM, GE etc. couldn't possibly sell such a product, how can Dish keep it up?

Don't mean to start a big "flame war" here but I think this is a legitimate question.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

The simple answer is that it's the only game in town for E* subscribers.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

tds4182 said:


> Maybe I'm just weird (there are already plenty of people who think so) in my approach to things, but I feel the need to ask this question:
> 
> Given the relatively high cost & low performance of the Dish 921s and the fact that there is a forum here (with thousands of posts) devoted exclusively to 921 performance issues, how can there be much of/any market for this product?
> 
> ...


Wait a second. Do you have a computer, and does it run WinDoZe? Then you are complaining about the same thing. Technology is far from perfect. Dish doesn't supply equipment that can be detremental to the safety of the purchaser(that's the installer's fault). They supply entertaiment receiving equipment. Yes, the 921 is a pain. So is the 721, which the 921 and the 522 are based upon. Is it worth it? Depends upon the person. I had some problems wiith my 721, and it is difficult for her to use(which I have to hear about), but, IMHO, it is a better system in MANY ways than the DirecTV TiVo boxes. And that's my opinion, which I am SURE is different from a lot of others. Why do I use DIsh? I get $55 worth of TV for basically free thanks to club dish, and Cable sucks(except for my cable modem). Why do people pay $4000+ for a plasma TV? Cause they have money to burn and they want the newest stuff today. Dish Networks thanks us for beta testing it's stuff. It's a fact of life. Does this explanation help?


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> Wait a second. Do you have a computer, and does it run WinDoZe? Then you are complaining about the same thing. Technology is far from perfect.


I always love it when people compare Dish hardware to a computer and windows on discussions about reliability. Yes, they both have CPU's, memory, harddrives etc. But there is one MAJOR difference, closed vs. open. You can take Windows and run it on just about any Intel based computer system out there. You can add memory, harddrives, DVD or CD-ROM drives, 1394 or USB ports. You can load thousands of different applications and run them. MS has to write an operating system that needs to interface/interact with all these variabiles and while it's nowhere near perfect it does a fairly good job at it.

Now look at E* hardware, completely closed, you can't even swap out a harddrive on their boxes. So here's a box that E* has TOTAL control over from hardware to software to even the programmig being fed into it and look at the number of problems that their STB's still have. With that amount of control over their product you'd think that it would be MUCH better then it is. I'm just glad that E* hasn't branched out and has decided to make pacemakers.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

RAD: Spot on!

larry: I thought the x22 receivers had a different code base. I'm almost certain of it.
721 and 921 are Eldon software. I didn't think they did any others (thank God!).


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

I don't have a 921 as yet, but I can give you a simple reason for people getting one. As SimpleSimon sez: it's the only game in town. I have had a TiVo series2 that I acquired before switching from cable to Dish. I use it with my 811 at present, but will probably move it to my 311 when the 921 arrives. The TiVo is great in many ways, but it gets its program guide info via my broadband connection, so if and when I move it, I'll have to run Ethernet cable to it (I don't want to pay for daily phone calls by the TiVo). The downside of the TiVo is that I can't watch one show while recording another, and of course, it isn't an HD recorder. The 921 will make life simpler for me. As to cost -- Check the cost of attending a concert, or the cost of many of life's other pleasures (I'm not a smoker, so think of the money I save there).


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

tds4182 said:


> Maybe I'm just weird (there are already plenty of people who think so) in my approach to things, but I feel the need to ask this question:
> 
> Given the relatively high cost & low performance of the Dish 921s and the fact that there is a forum here (with thousands of posts) devoted exclusively to 921 performance issues, how can there be much of/any market for this product?
> 
> ...


It's not only a legitimate question. It's one that any sane person would ask.

RAD's answer Larry's hackneyed auto-response (DVR's are no different than PC's, and you shouldn't expect things to work perfectly, yadda yadda) was indeed "spot on".

Personally, I would not spend $1K to DVR the limited amount of HD out there right now. I certainly wouldn't pay it for that roach motel, the 921. The 811 is bad enough, but at least it was free.

The combo of an 811 and DVR (510 soon to be 721) will do me fine until my commitment is up. At that point, hopefully, Dish will have their sh*t together, or I'll get a DirecTV system, or I might even feed the pig. It doesn't matter to me. Whoever provides the best value will get my biz.


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## JerryLA (Dec 29, 2003)

I think the 921 appeals to the tech geek in me. I don't have a DVR, want one that records HD, OTA is not available in my area. I think it will suit my needs perfectly. I think it sucks the way Dish has handled the release, or "non release" of this product. Do I want one? Yes. Am I tired of waiting since Decmeber? Hell yes!


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

If it were FREE I wouldnt want one. Life is general is way too buggy as is.

E is earning a reputation The DP they blamed on microsoft. The 721 921 they blame on Eldon.

Yet microsoft went on to build a fine box for D.

The major thing in common is one letter E

Either they should fix things or get out of the box business.

The statement the new high def DRR will be out in november no matter what gives me no confidence at all. That sort of thing gave us the 921 debacle....

Given all this I want them to be a success, and hope they have learned their lesson


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## kev jr (May 14, 2002)

It feels good that i am not the only one who feels that E* is putting the blame on others instead of looking at itself..The dishplayer was a rolls royce in its day and probally is the best dvr out there for interface wise..I must agree 100% that msn built ultimate and it is fine ..I believe in the underdog but how long can you stay with the underdog when the OLD dog still cant learn new tricks :eek2: by the time i buy a new DVR it will probally be outdated by then i remember first seeing replaytv back in 99 i think and was so interested in it but for 1200 at that time it was out of my ball game ..the dishplayer has been my Love hate relationship ..

But like all say what is best for me and i think for the money and stability i have to look elsewhere besides E*

Good day for me sad day for my dishplayer


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Maybe purchasers really wanted to be a tv technician their entire life and this is their big opportunity?

Anyone who frequents DBS boards should know better


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## greylar (Oct 31, 2002)

RAD said:


> I always love it when people compare Dish hardware to a computer and windows on discussions about reliability.


I agree entirely. If you took windows and ran it on one carefully chosen platform with no additional software or drivers it would run flawlessly.

Microsoft can only dream of such a scenario. Given that the 921 will forever use one hardware platform and little if any third party software, it should run pretty close to perfect.

G


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

tds4182 said:


> . . . Given the relatively high cost & low performance of the Dish 921s and the fact that there is a forum here (with thousands of posts) devoted exclusively to 921 performance issues, how can there be much of/any market for this product? . . .


Well, if you had a 921, you'd probably know the answer to your question. No it's not perfect. It still has some bugs. But you know, it works pretty darn well. Is it worth $1k? In my mind it is. I've had one for 6 weeks and have had only a small handful of issues, none of which were life threatening.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

I'll take the HDTivo from D* when I decide to pay $1000. I pay that much money? I want something that *works*. I'm sorry, but anything that require 'special bootup instructions' is NOT a consumer electronics device. It's a techno-geeks box and while I'd love to experiment with one (921) I'm not go to subject my family to it.


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

I couldn't get away with the 921 being my main IRD. Our 721 is used for most viewing. The 921 is used almost exclusively by me in my theater. My wife would kill me if she was relying on the 921 for general viewing. She has no idea how buggy the 921 is because she never uses it - I hope it stays that way, or better yet, the 921 gets fixed.


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## topom (Jan 4, 2004)

Given the incredibly strong opinions of many in this thread, I am curious to know how many actually have experience with the 921. If you haven't used one, then it is a unjustifiably judgemental - sort of like someone with a strong opinon about a movie they have never seen. I have owned a 921 since January and have had no major issues and only needed a hard re-boot twice - both times due to to power outage while recording. Yes there are many posts about bugs, but as with all chat forums like this there are at least 2-3 times more people that will take the time to write about a complaint with something than will take the time to write a note about the fact that they like a product or that it is performing as expected.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

When the 921 works, it is amazing. When it doesn't, it's infuriating.

Then again, it sounds like my marriage, so I'm used to this kind of love hate relationship by now....... 

OK, once again.... comedy folks.... no trouble on the home front.......


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

I have not owned a 921, I had one on order and I would have actually received it back in late January. I turned it down after my on hands experience with the 811, which like all recent E* hardware ships with a number of usability issues and missing features. If E* couldn't get a 'simple' upgrade the the 6K to work I had no hope that they could execute on the 921. 

With that said I think you don't need to actually experience the 921 to question why people are still willing to spend $1k on this product, which is what the original posted asked about. Remember the Yugo, would you have purchased on even though you had read all the press on it? There are enough posts out there from people reporting problems with their 921 that I think you can extract that it's not a few minor problems but some real major ones that folks have. Even Scott over at the other guys site, who's been know to cheer E* posted a flame about the 921 after it missed some recordings his wife wanted. 

I'm surprised that the entire DishWire mess on the 921 hasn't once been mention in this thread. Would you have the same opinion if you had purchased the 921 and then spend the additional $'s on a D-VHS deck, just waiting for the announced capability to dump HDTV programming to your D-VHS deck?

I know in my mind I don't understand how E* can get away with this, time after time to their high end customers, while over at D* they can release the DirecTivo HD STB and the two biggest complaints is dropping audio on HDNet and missing channel logo's on some boxes. What are D* hardware designers/manufactures able to do that E* just can't seem to master?


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

RAD said:


> ...there is one MAJOR difference, closed vs. open. ... MS has to write an operating system that needs to interface/interact with all these variabiles and while it's nowhere near perfect it does a fairly good job at it.
> 
> Now look at E* hardware, completely closed, you can't even swap out a harddrive on their boxes. So here's a box that E* has TOTAL control over from hardware to software to even the programmig being fed into it and look at the number of problems that their STB's still have. With that amount of control over their product you'd think that it would be MUCH better then it is....


That might be true, but as an argument explaining why things are as they are, "closed vs. open" seems a little far-fetched. I'm not sure if this is the same issue or a side issue, but the prevailing argument as to why Macintosh runs so much better than Windoze has always been based on the same "closed vs. open" theory, where since Apple has total control over hardware and software, it runs with far fewer problems. I've never bought into that, either, since compared to Linux, which also runs nearly flawlessly Windoze is the relatively closed system in that comparison, and both Linux and OS X run rings around anything that even smells of WinTel.

IMO, OS X and Linux are simply better-written from the ground up. One is significantly more closed than Windoze, and one is significantly more open, yet both have Unix-like underpinnings, more robust kernels, and apparently significantly more brilliant code-writing.

I think the same case can be made for Tivo (or Replay, for that matter) vs. E* PVR's. Tivo and Replay are sigificantly more stable and robust because they are simply written better by more talented coders. There are some ergonomics problems with Tivo, but it runs like a top. IMO, closed vs. open hardly applies here either, since all PVR's are closed systems and Tivo is even a little more open by virtue of the hacks.

But the HD version of Tivo has its growing pains as well, as both are sort of in an infancy. I would bet that Tivo eventually emerges with the more mature and more stable product, however, because it is being nourished by Tivo coders, while the 921 is being nourished by 721/522 coders. That's a sucker bet if I ever saw one.


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## riekl (Jan 21, 2003)

Tomcat,

Uhh .. just for the record can you please explain how you define Linux as significantly more open ? In the case of this discussion open means working with more hardware closed the opposite, we aren't talking about the source code.

There are tens of thousands of MORE drivers for Windows then there are for Linux. Windows is a far more "open" os in terms of device compatability.

Now I wont argue your performance standpoint Linux/Unix _IS_ more efficient there just isn't any question about that. But from a stability standpoint .. no .. I've had my slackware box crash due to hardware & kernel panics more often then any of my XP boxes which are rock solid in stability ..


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

BobMurdoch said:


> When the 921 works, it is amazing. When it doesn't, it's infuriating.
> 
> Then again, it sounds like my marriage, so I'm used to this kind of love hate relationship by now.......
> 
> OK, once again.... comedy folks.... no trouble on the home front.......


If I was you, I'd sell my wife on eBay, and switch to a different marital provider.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Ha ha!

Yeah, but I've got programming with my current marital provider that I can't get elsewhere.... 

Something about channel 496 being available via a permanent monthly suscription vs. only renting the programming in ninety minute blocks for a SUBSTANTIAL premium.....

Although I think that renting is only legal just outside of Las Vegas.........


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

Linux is significantly more open because the operating system itself is changed and maintained by the userbase, with enhancements and applications made available for the public at no cost.

I have no access to the OS source code of Windows, I have limited free software for server-based applications, and in general, everything of enterprise-quality I need to do on Windows costs me thousands of dollars.

I use both, but "open" and "Windows" are not meant to be in the same sentence. They both have advantages or disadvantages, but Bill Gates would be the first to say Windows is *not* an open OS. "Open Source" means something, as does "Open Distribution." Another example of closed is Apple's OSX, which although based in UNIX, isn't something they distribute the code for user input and changes. (It is nice that say provide decent development environments for everyone who buys it, unlike Windows, but then again I don't use it either.)

Sorry, couldn't resist.



riekl said:


> Tomcat,
> 
> Uhh .. just for the record can you please explain how you define Linux as significantly more open ? In the case of this discussion open means working with more hardware closed the opposite, we aren't talking about the source code.
> 
> ...


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