# L215 poor picture lock in



## BobMinn (Jul 1, 2005)

I mentioned this in the bugs forum but thought I should put it here too.

I found that the sd picture from composite and s-video is blurrier with L215. The text will have a fringe around it and seem fuzzy. If I press pause twice the problem goes away, but if I change channels, ff,fr, skip, slow motion, etc. the problem returns. It looks like the picture isn't locking in properly and pause somehow resets it. I don't think that this ever happened before L215.



Good luck!

Bobminn


----------



## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

BobMinn said:


> I mentioned this in the bugs forum but thought I should put it here too.
> 
> I found that the sd picture from composite and s-video is blurrier with L215. The text will have a fringe around it and seem fuzzy. If I press pause twice the problem goes away, but if I change channels, ff,fr, skip, slow motion, etc. the problem returns. It looks like the picture isn't locking in properly and pause somehow resets it. I don't think that this ever happened before L215.
> 
> ...


Exactly Bob, exactly&#8230;

As I see it, my issues with this latest pile of improvements are (in order of increasing severity):

#1 -- With L215, there is now momentary frame jitter when using the play-back controls as motion resumes (coming off pause or skip). This is minor, but still annoying.

#2 -- Another issue with L215 is the horrendous amount of additional over-scan (so we can move the video image around the screen, I guess.) Why?

#3 -- The SD mpeg render engine looks like a reversion to what we had to deal with pre L211. Whatever smoothing algorithm they implemented in L211 that made SD viewing tolerable on the 921 has obviously been tossed aside with L215. SD artifacting is a big issue for me. And now with L215 it's back to where we were before. Why? WHY!


----------



## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

I completely agree with AVJohnnie on all three points, and add to the list:

#1.5 -- The box just responds slower - to most everything. For instance, when I press the DVR button, I now see "Please wait... loading data" for a few seconds, where it used to just pop the list. And this being summer and all, I only have 11 timers defined, and maybe 15 saved recordings, which is only, like, 1/8 of what I have had for the past 6 months or so, but I've never seen the "please wait" message until now.

#2.5 -- Lost OTA guide data: I used to have it, now I don't - and I subscribe to Dish locals.

#2.6 -- The 3-5 second audio dropout and subsequent video breakup is still there. I've seen it twice since L215: once on an L213 recoding and once on an L215 recording.

Since I've never had a missed timer or a ZSR, all I can say it that L215 is a HUGE step backwards for me, and that follows L211 which was a HUGE step backwards, and L212 that did nothing.


----------



## BobMinn (Jul 1, 2005)

I just noticed that when the picture is not blurred that there is a ripple about one third of the way up the image. It is a horizontal line that distorts the picture. Also, pause does not clear up the picture every time, it sometimes takes several attempts.

By the way, none of this shows up in menus or other box generated text, only programming.

Bobminn


----------



## ragnarok (May 12, 2005)

I've had a horizontal ripple as well. Mine looks like a small chunk of scan lines is duplicated. It only appears on the SD outputs when I'm watching an SD program and it doesn't affect any menu or guide graphics. I never get it on DVI or watching an HD program through the SD outputs. Dish replaced my 921 a while back because of this problem and my replacement developed the exact same issue just this weekend. The timing didn't seem to correspond to my L215 update. Tech support keeps insisting I must have a cabling problem even though this affects my S-video, composite, and RF outputs. I did discover last night that if I activate "safe mode" by holding the SD/HD button the ripple goes away, but as soon as I switch to normal SD output it comes back.


----------



## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

BobMinn said:


> I just noticed that when the picture is not blurred that there is a ripple about one third of the way up the image. It is a horizontal line that distorts the picture. Also, pause does not clear up the picture every time, it sometimes takes several attempts.
> 
> By the way, none of this shows up in menus or other box generated text, only programming.
> 
> Bobminn


I'm getting two ripples on HD programming. The only time you can really notice it is when credits are rolling at the end of a program (live or recorded). They are at approximately 1/3 and 2/3 of screen height, and go clear across the screen. I didn't mention it until now because I hadn't done any testing yet to see if it's my TV or the 921. I'll do that tonight, using my 6000 as a test input.

Brad


----------



## guyster (Feb 4, 2005)

Guys, 

I've experienced the horizontal ripple on my previous 921 (which was replaced for that ripple) and I noticed it after L215 was installed. Before my previous replacement box arrived, I decided to play around with some of the viewing preferences. I found that if I adjusted the screen position anywhere beyond the default setting, the ripple would appear. I tested this when I received my replacement 921. I was able to create the ripple by adjusting the horizontal screen position. Once I selected the "reset" button the ripple disappeared. Knowing this, once L215 spooled and I noticed the ripple, I went to view preferences and selected "reset" and the ripple is no more! FYI, select menu, preferences, view preference, and under screen position, select reset.


----------



## michaelL (Nov 30, 2004)

guyster said:


> Guys,
> 
> I've experienced the horizontal ripple on my previous 921 (which was replaced for that ripple) and I noticed it after L215 was installed. Before my previous replacement box arrived, I decided to play around with some of the viewing preferences. I found that if I adjusted the screen position anywhere beyond the default setting, the ripple would appear. I tested this when I received my replacement 921. I was able to create the ripple by adjusting the horizontal screen position. Once I selected the "reset" button the ripple disappeared. Knowing this, once L215 spooled and I noticed the ripple, I went to view preferences and selected "reset" and the ripple is no more! FYI, select menu, preferences, view preference, and under screen position, select reset.


Ding, Ding, Ding!

We have a winner. Setting the screen position to the "reset" position fixed my ripple effect.

Thanks.

Is this a new bug or has it existed in past releases? Maybe 215 just made the "bug" worse.

Thanks again,
Mike


----------



## BobMinn (Jul 1, 2005)

Just tried resetting the screen position without any change in the ripple. I should mention that I only get the ripple if I hit pause enough to eliminate the blurred picture that I mentioned above.

Maybe I'm wrong, but when I played a program in 1/15 slow motion before L215 the picture would shift up and down as each frame of the interlaced image was displayed. It doesn't do that any more. The blurring of the image that I see almost looks like improper interlacing, as if there is a double image. I wonder if a change has been made in how the 921 handles 480I, which explains what we are seeing.

Bobminn


----------



## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

Bradtothebone said:


> I'm getting two ripples on HD programming. The only time you can really notice it is when credits are rolling at the end of a program (live or recorded). They are at approximately 1/3 and 2/3 of screen height, and go clear across the screen. I didn't mention it until now because I hadn't done any testing yet to see if it's my TV or the 921. I'll do that tonight, using my 6000 as a test input.
> 
> Brad


I verified last night that this is a 921, and not a TV, issue by A/B comparison of a signal from my 6000 and my 921. The 6000 is clean as a whistle, while the 921 has two ripples.

Having said that, I know that I adjusted screen position somewhat after L215 spooled, so I'll try guyster's fix tonight. Thanks for the suggestion!

Brad


----------



## michaelL (Nov 30, 2004)

michaelL said:


> Ding, Ding, Ding!
> 
> We have a winner. Setting the screen position to the "reset" position fixed my ripple effect.
> 
> ...


I take this back. The problem is not fixed. This problem comes and goes. I can watch a show and it has the jagged line. Then I can watch the exact same footage and the jagged line is not there. I have not found a pattern yet.

Mike

P.S. I think it might have been worse when I did not have the screen set to the "reset" position. (But I am not sure...)


----------



## David K (Nov 27, 2004)

I have the ripple as well, for me it only appears when I switch back from HD to SD. When I turn the 921 on in SD mode (if it was turned off in SD mode previously), no ripple, when I go to HD mode, no ripple, when I come back to SD mode I have the ripple. Although, changing the channel removes the ripple. So if I change from HD to SD on say channel 105, I have the artifact, if I change thechannel to 106 the problem goes away, I then come back to 105 and all is good. I've played around with this quite a bit and changing the channel seems to work for me. But I agree the SD picture has degraded through the SD outputs since 215.


----------



## BobMinn (Jul 1, 2005)

Bingo!

Thanks David;

I think that you are experiencing the same problem that I am having. I think the ripple and degraded picture are related. I suggest that the ripple will come and go depending on the functions that are used. It will go if the channel is changed, skip is used, FF, etc. but the picture will be slightly blurry, especially text, when there is no ripple. If you hit "skip back" once and then "pause" twice the picture improves ( its sharper) and the ripple appears. This means that we have to chose our problem; fuzzy picture or ripples.

I'd appreciate some of you trying this to verify that my 921 is not the only one doing this.

It happens only on SD outputs of OTA or Dish programming and doesn't affect menus or other 921 geneerated graphics. The ripple is most easily seen when the camera pans and seems to be a line the there is a discontinuity of left out pixels. The blurriness affects everything in the picture but is most easily seen in text such as extra pixels under the word "channel" that rotates in the lower left corner of the Fox news screen. After hitting skip back and pause twice the pixels go away.

Bobminn


----------



## KKlare (Sep 24, 2004)

Is this like I described elsewhere, a deleted or duplicated line such as one might expect from trying to adjust he number of lines on the screen? That would be apparent on a diagonal straight line across. Some have called it a bump, especially in a scroll.
-Ken


----------



## zzooom (Jul 8, 2005)

I can't tell you all how relieved I was to find this post. I also noticed the line in my picture the day of the L215 update. I had been using my 921 since September of '04, and had never seen this line. 

I had been trying to figure out over several days what was causing the line, and came here to see if anyone else was seeing the same thing.

When I saw Guyster's post about resetting the screen position, I thought I would give it a try. Much to my disappointment, it did not work. After resetting the screen position, the line was still there. Then it dawned on me, I had never made an adjustment to the screen position since activating my 921. So I went back into the "reset screen position" menu, but instead of entering the reset button, I hi lighted the "up" arrow, and pressed enter. This I assume, raised the picture by a value of one. I can't tell you what a relief it was to find that the dreaded "line" was now gone for the first time since the L215 download on June 29th, and that was 9 days ago. 

I was able to determine that the line was a direct result of the L215 update, because I had recorded a movie from TCM onto the 921 hard drive on July 27th, two days before L215 download. I had transferred the movie from the 921 onto a DVD-R, but had not deleted it from the 921 HD. After noticing the line in my picture on July 29th, I compared the TCM Movie still on my 921 HD to the movie that I had transferred to the DVD-R. Low and behold, the line was not on the copy that I had made to the DVD-R, but it was in the copy still on the 921 HD.


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Do you guys see this distortion line on any particular channel? Only on HD programming, only on SD programming, or on both? Are you connected with component cables or DVI? Output setting 1080i or 720p? 

I've spent a good deal of time trying to see this on mine, connected with component cables and set at 1080i, on HD and SD programming, and I just don't see it. Is it obvious, or very subtle?

Can someone post a screenshot?


----------



## BobMinn (Jul 1, 2005)

I see the line only on sd outputs: s-video or composite. Nothing on HD.

zzooom gave me an idea. Resetting the picture position didn't help me so I tried moving the picture up 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 steps. What I found was that I got bluriness on the even number of moves up ( including zero) and lines (ripples) on the odd numbered positions except for 5. Amazingly, 5 moves up eliminates both the blurriness and the lines.

It looks like the picture positioning preference is causing some problems for some of us.

I'm happy to have a temporary solution and have found L215 to be a significant improvement otherwise.

Bobminn


----------



## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Do you guys see this distortion line on any particular channel? Only on HD programming, only on SD programming, or on both? Are you connected with component cables or DVI? Output setting 1080i or 720p?


Mark,

I've only seen it on one occurrence after I used the (M-4-2-More) to adjust the screen position (a couple of ticks up the display). I was able to cure it (so far) by using the screen position Reset.

It happened in HD mode, at both 480p and 1080i while viewing HD sources (DSCHD, HDNET, and ESPHD.) I use component cables.


----------



## David K (Nov 27, 2004)

Mark, I use s-vid for SD and DVI for HD, in my setup I use a Harmony remote, when I hit the watch SD command on the remote it changes the 921 to the SD outs and the TV to the s-vid input, when I hit the watch HD command the remote changes the 921 to the HD outs and my TV to the DVI input. This artifact is not connected to any channel. I do not see it in HD mode through DVI at all whether it be 480p, 720p, 1080i, I do not see it in SD mode through S-vid or composite unless I switch from HD back to SD, and then only through the 480i s-vid or composite connection. It's like a glitch in the 215 software that looses resolution when the switch is made from HD to SD, (I can reproduce the artifact at any time by taking this action), I never experienced it previous to 215. There are two horizontal lines, one about a third of the way down on the screen and one about a third of the way up on the screen and is very obvious. Changing the channel restores the resolution and removes the artifact. I tried the suggested Idea of changing and restoring the screen position and it didn't work, I still get the artifact when I switch back from HD to SD irregardless of what channel I'm on. I do agree that the SD picture through s-vid and composite is quite a bit softer since 215 as well, which is a shame. The reason I use this setup and the s-vid connection for SD is because I can use my TV's superior stretch modes instead of the crappy 921s.


----------



## zzooom (Jul 8, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Do you guys see this distortion line on any particular channel? Only on HD programming, only on SD programming, or on both? Are you connected with component cables or DVI? Output setting 1080i or 720p?
> 
> I've spent a good deal of time trying to see this on mine, connected with component cables and set at 1080i, on HD and SD programming, and I just don't see it. Is it obvious, or very subtle?
> 
> Can someone post a screenshot?


Mark-I see the line only on SD programing, through composite, RF, Svideo and component. The line is not visible on HD programming, even HD when output in SD via composite, RF Svideo, or component.

Also, the line is not visible viewing SD programming through the HD output.

The line is most visible during vertical panning motions, and though visible while the picture is not moving, it would be difficult to capture in a screen shot.

I would be glad to make you a DVD-R demo, repeating a short video segment from my 921 hard drive, one with the line visible, and one without the line, by removing the line using the "adjust picture position" mentioned earlier.

Thanks again for all of your hard work in helping us to troubleshoot these problems. I don't know what I would do without this forum!

-David


----------



## BobMinn (Jul 1, 2005)

Hello Mark L.

I have attached four photos of my sony 32" tv screen showing two examples of "ripples" (horizontal lines) and the blurriness that ive mentioned in this thread. 

Photos A & B show the "ripple" or discontinuity line that appears about one third of the way up the screen. It crosses the bottoms of the theme and browse buttons and the tops of the down arrow button. In C it goes through the lower half of the word "Dennis".

Photos C & D show the Fox word "channel" clearly and blurred respectively. 

These conditions are seen only on the s-video and composite outputs not the HD DVI output. I do not use component out.

I can make these conditions come and go by moving the picture position (under preferences) up one step at a time. Conditions A, B & C appear only with an odd number of moves up and conditon D only on reset and even numbers of moves up. The exception to this is that there is no bluriness or ripple at 5 moves up. This pattern continues for 6 and 7 moves. Left and right moves don't seem to cause problems and I haven't tried going down moves since my picture is already too low at the default setting.

Please pass this on to the programers. 

Bobminn


----------



## guyster (Feb 4, 2005)

Mark,

I too use s-video for SD content and DVI for HD. The ripple only shows itself when I am viewing SD using s-video. For me, once I notice the ripple, I am able to get rid of it by pressing the reset button in the screen position menu. It seems that every time I exit from viewing a recorded event to view a live event, the ripple appears. Again I press reset for the screen position and it disappears.


----------



## 921Blues (May 29, 2005)

I find it amazing how much our individual experiences vary with L215. I haven't noticed any of these artifacts that you guys are discussing - and in fact I have only noticed 2 differences in the picture quality with L215 - one bad, one good.

I do see the overscan issue. I lose more of the image all the way around - at least on the high def channels. However, when watching 4:3 SD programs in normal mode, with the receiver set to 1080i, the left and right edges of the image have cleaned up considerably. With L213 I saw lots of color and image artifacts at the edges of the image. Now it's nice and crisp. Whatever changes they make from now on, I hope they keep this improvement.

921blues


----------



## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

Mark,
I get two ripples (one at 1/3 and one at 2/3 screen height). I have only noticed this on HD programming on component output at 1080i. I looked for it on a SD program on HBOHD and did not see it during the rolling credits, which is the easiest place to see it. Frankly, I probably wouldn't notice it on a SD channel through S-video, since the picture isn't exactly pristine, anyway.

I still haven't tried adjusting the position to see if that helps - maybe I'll have time tonight.

Brad


----------



## David K (Nov 27, 2004)

Some of us use s-video for 4:3 SD because the stretch modes Dish/Direct and cable implement in their receivers are junk. You either have a zoomed image with way to much overscan or short squatty egg head shaped image with stretch. Leaving the receiver set to 720p/1080i locks most sets into full mode forcing you to use the receivers crappy stretch modes, so you either go into menus all the time or simply switch inputs between SD and HD connections. I have done HT setups for awhile now and 90% of my customers, when they see the difference, prefer there TV's superior, more natural, stretch modes, myself included. There is no such thing as a prestine image from Dish or any of them, until they ease up on their compression schemes. You just have to find the best with what you have to work with. I suspect once HD DVD hits and the format war settles and we see what true uncompressed HD should look like, for me anyway, HD Dish will be short lived. OTA HD, DVD HD, and a few 360 and PS3 HD games will fill the bill and I will drop Dish once again to the bare minimum. For the monent however, other than OTA, it's all there is.


----------



## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

David K said:


> Some of us use s-video for 4:3 SD because the stretch modes Dish/Direct and cable implement in their receivers are junk. You either have a zoomed image with way to much overscan or short squatty egg head shaped image with stretch. Leaving the receiver set to 720p/1080i locks most sets into full mode forcing you to use the receivers crappy stretch modes, so you either go into menus all the time or simply switch inputs between SD and HD connections.


I didn't mean to imply that there is anything wrong with this, and in fact, if I want to watch, say, a football game on FSN, that's what I do, too. The fact of the matter is that I just don't watch much SD programming on my RPTV because it usually looks so bad. The only stretch mode I ever use is "zoom," which works very well on widescreen SD shows such as "Rescue Me" on FX.

Brad


----------



## BobMinn (Jul 1, 2005)

Hi David;

I very am happy with my SD picture quality now that I got rid of ripples and blurriness, as described above. It is as good as it was before L215. However, it really shouldn't depend on how the picture position is set.

I agree that the S-video out is the way to go. In my case, the reason that the DVI output displays a soft picture may be that my Sony tv set has adjustments for sharpness and edge enhancement for SD. If I turn those adjustments off, the pict. is just as soft as in the HD modes.

Bobminn


----------

