# Panasonic Plasmas have "issues" with Black Level



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

From CNET - this article talks about Panasonic's Plasma units, which appear to have some "issues" with their ability to maintain black level over time:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10447329-1.html



> In response to complaints reporting a loss in black level performance in its plasma TVs over time, Panasonic has issued a statement.
> 
> It admitted that "background brightness will increase," but described the change as "automatic" over the TVs' lifespan and part of normal operation in order to "achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set."


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Ugh... As I've followed reviews and recommendations at CNet, I've moved away from Samsung to Panasonic as my possible choice when I upgrade to HDTV. I really liked the G10 and V10 series and now looking at that article, I might have to start looking somewhere else.

- Merg


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

> Panasonic...described the change as "automatic" over the TVs' lifespan and part of normal operation in order to "achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set."


That's the biggest load of BS I've heard lately -- obviously penned by Panny's PR pukes. As a long-time fan of Panasonic video products, I'm very disappointed in that statement.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Nick said:


> As a long-time fan of Panasonic video products, I'm very disappointed in that statement.


So, have you noticed anything of the sort with your Panny's then? Or is this just something that some people notice, but most people will never even realize is happening?

- Merg


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## dave1234 (Oct 9, 2005)

Nick said:


> That's the biggest load of BS I've heard lately -- obviously penned by Panny's PR pukes. As a long-time fan of Panasonic video products, I'm very disappointed in that statement.


It's not a bug it's a feature! :lol:


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## jimmerz (Jan 26, 2010)

I have 2 Panny Plasma's. My 42" was purchased in 2006 and I have had no noticeable problems. Great picture, love it (720)

My newer one is a 58" and I guess only time will tell since I just got it during the black friday sales of 2009. 3 months old. 1080p - nice


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

> Originally Posted by *Nick* - As a long-time fan of Panasonic video products, I'm very disappointed in that statement.





> Originally Posted by *The Merg* - So, have you noticed anything of the sort with your Panny's then? Or is this just something that some people notice, but most people will never even realize is happening?


I sold my last Panny, a 50" RPTV, after five years of flawless performance. I don't happen to have a Panny plasma at present, but if I did and there was an anomaly, I would absolutely notice.


> Originally Posted by *Nick* - (The Panny statement) ...is the biggest load of BS I've heard lately -- obviously penned by Panny's PR pukes. As a long-time fan of Panasonic video products, I'm very disappointed in that statement.





> Originally Posted by *dave1234* - It's not a bug it's a feature!


My biatch is with the BS Panasonic statement, not with their products. Please pay attention.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

How is this really any different than over time, LCD's become dimmer, projector bulbs burn out, etc.....


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## OptimusPrime (Apr 26, 2008)

CCarncross said:


> How is this really any different than over time, LCD's become dimmer, projector bulbs burn out, etc.....


My friend is EXTREMELY UPSET about this. He went with a 54" G10 series, and he's on his 3rd set. While he hasn't noticed the black level issue with his current set YET, he expects to once he's used it a bit more. He also bought a different Panny model in 2008, and was 100% happy with it. According to my buddy, this problem exists only in their 2009 models.



The Merg said:


> Ugh... As I've followed reviews and recommendations at CNet, I've moved away from Samsung to Panasonic as my possible choice when I upgrade to HDTV. I really liked the G10 and V10 series and now looking at that article, I might have to start looking somewhere else.
> 
> - Merg


Merg -

Check out the link to this website:http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv/compare-reviews.php

It really helped aid me in my research to find a quality and affordable HDTV. I eventually went with the Samsung PN58B550. I am very pleased with this set.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Correct, and seems to be affecting only some of the 2009 12th generation glass units. I've got three Panny plasmas with no issue, one a 2009 model 65s1. A gradual brightening of the black levels is actually programmed into all Panasonic displays and is normal, but not an "overnight" doubling of black level in the first few hundred hours, as some folks have reported. I've got 700 hours on my 65S! with no issue to date, and others in the S1 thread over on AVS forum are reporting thousands of hours with no issues, so the issue seems to be more prevalent on the G series.


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## dmspen (Dec 1, 2006)

Over at HDTV magazine site, I asked the question if this was unique to Panasonic or an issue with all Plasma screens. The concensus was that this happens to all plasmas. One tech piped up and said that the average consumer will not be able to tell the difference. Sure, you could use a test device and measure the loss, but who does that? It also takes several years for this to happen.

I would not hesitate to buy a Panny based on this. I've never heard anyone complain about their loss of 'blackness' on any Panasonic. There are other much more serious problems that plague other manufacturers. I have a 32" Samsung, less than 2 years old. It just started humming very loudly. Evidently its a common malady with Samsungs - something to do with the power board. Replacing it costs as much as a new TV. So should I NOT consider ever getting a Sammy?


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

I love my Panny S1, best TV I have ever owned.

Lots are making this into a bigger deal than it should be IMO.


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## OptimusPrime (Apr 26, 2008)

Grentz said:


> Lots are making this into a bigger deal than it should be IMO.


This is probably the case. However, I am intrigued if it is an actual real problem. Lots of people on the AVS forums claim that this is something that they noticed seemingly over night. The newer plasmas claim to use less energy - so I wonder if this has something to do with it?

There was a post in another thread about the capacitors on certain model Samsung TVs, where they mistakenly used 10V instead of 16V, or something like that. This caught my attention, as I just recently bought a Samsung.

For the amount of money these TVs cost, no one wants to hear that in a year or so, their picture quality will degrade - even if its true.

One more note - I heard that Panasonic obtained the rights to Pioneer's KURO black level patent. Can anyone confirm this?


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## djrobx (Jan 27, 2009)

My 6 year old Panasonic 50PHD5UY still has a beautiful picture. It was far pricier than today's plasmas, but it's held up great.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

OptimusPrime said:


> One more note - I heard that Panasonic obtained the rights to Pioneer's KURO black level patent. Can anyone confirm this?


I don't know about a "black level patent" per say. But Panasonic acquired all the KURO tech and patents.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

djrobx said:


> My 6 year old Panasonic 50PHD5UY still has a beautiful picture. It was far pricier than today's plasmas, but it's held up great.


They were all far pricier 6 years ago.....


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

I have a 2009 V10 with over 1000 hours on it. This is by far the best TV I have owned and the second Panny. The picture is great and I have not noticed any problem with the black levels.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CCarncross said:


> How is this really any different than over time, LCD's become dimmer, projector bulbs burn out, etc.....


This is one advantage to DLP and LCD based RPTVs. An aging bulb is relatively cheap and easy to replace and doing so returns the set to like-new performance.

If Panasonic has felt compelled to issue a statement, the degradation probably isn't negligible.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

harsh said:


> This is one advantage to DLP and LCD based RPTVs. An aging bulb is relatively cheap and easy to replace and doing so returns the set to like-new performance.
> 
> If Panasonic has felt compelled to issue a statement, the degradation probably isn't negligible.


The bulb for my projector is $500, my Panny Plasma was $800.

Yes I know with larger sizes the difference is more, but bulbs are very expensive, and do not yield much lifetime in some cases (many higher end projectors have even more pricey bulbs and lifetimes are in the couple thousand hour area).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Are you talking front projection or rear projection?


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

I'm watching the Olympics on a 58" V10 and it's pretty damn nice from my perspective. Of course, when you're as old as Nick and me, your eyesight is one of the first things to go.

John


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

harsh said:


> Are you talking front projection or rear projection?


Mine is a front projection, but I was talking about both.

Bulb prices are fairly similar, and while rear projection TVs usually have longer bulb lives, they are still fairly short and tend to burn out before their "expected" lifetime in my experience.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Grentz said:


> Mine is a front projection, but I was talking about both.


I haven't seen any comparisons that showed one way or the other regarding lifespan, but a replacement bulb assembly for my 61" RPTV is available for just over $100 (shipped).

Advanced Lamps is asking $89 + S&H
MC Electronics is asking $129 + S&H (because it isn't costly enough to qualify for free UPS)
JVC sells the lamp for $199 + S&H

I submit that front projection bulbs may cost significantly more than RPTV bulbs.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

My friends toshiba RPTV bulb was around $400 and that was after shopping around.

It really just depends on the model.


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## Bigrhsfan (Oct 23, 2009)

I've had a panny ( TC-P42S1 ) for around a year and have over 2000hrs on it now and if anything the picture seems just as good if not better than when I bought it. I also haven't noticed any black level rising issues........yet. I haven't checked mine with a meter, but my eyes tell me it's not a problem with my set. Of course my wife says I'm half blind so there you go.....LOL.
I would buy another S1 in a heartbeat. I can't speak for any other panny models or size. 
I think it has a better picture then my 40" Samsung ( LN40C) LCD that I have downstairs and it's a great TV IMHO also.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I have the TC-P50G10 (purchased April '09). I can't say that I've noticed anything different. The picture still looks great. Much better then my LCD. Then again I can't stand the off axis thing which is while I'll stick with plasma. I just hope this isn't going to be a continual thing. 

From what I can tell reading the Cnet article and the thread over at AVR forums, it seems this is noticable when you use it in a pitch black room every day. Mine is never in the dark. :grin:

Mike


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Bigrhsfan said:


> I've had a panny ( TC-P42S1 ) for around a year and have over 2000hrs on it now and if anything the picture seems just as good if not better than when I bought it. I also haven't noticed any black level rising issues........yet. I haven't checked mine with a meter, but my eyes tell me it's not a problem with my set. Of course my wife says I'm half blind so there you go.....LOL.
> I would buy another S1 in a heartbeat. I can't speak for any other panny models or size.
> I think it has a better picture then my 40" Samsung ( LN40C) LCD that I have downstairs and it's a great TV IMHO also.


+1. I love my 42" S1. One of the best TVs I have ever had the pleasure of owning


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Grentz said:


> +1. I love my 42" S1. One of the best TVs I have ever had the pleasure of owning


Same here for my 2009 65S1 with about 1000 hours on it. I recently calibrated it and measured the black level at .008 ftL. I actually find that too black. My smoothest gamma curve and best overall picture came when I actually doubled it to .016 ftL by increasing brightness. By comparison, a Kuro measures about .004 ftL and an 11th generation (2008) Panasonic probably around .010 ftL.

I also have gen 6 and 7 Panny plasmas that are a few years older that still have stunning pictures, in spite of absolute black levels triple my S1's.

I agree with what *Mike *posted earlier. Unless you're watching a black screen in a totally dark room, if nothing is seriously out of spec, I don't think the absolute black level measurement on modern displays really matters. It's just a numbers game. IMHO, the _perceived_ black level, based on the contrast ratio from light to dark, is much more important to a achieving excellent picture quality. Just my .02.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Grentz said:


> +1. I love my 42" S1. One of the best TVs I have ever had the pleasure of owning


+2....I love my 42S1, bought it for the bedroom.


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## jackal2001 (Jul 10, 2009)

There is a huge discussion over at AVSforums about this. I have a 2009 TC-P50V10 and it is so bad at .034FtL for a 0% IRE slide that I decided to put it downstairs and get a Pioneer Elite 101FD.

I've called Panny numerous times and they refuse to fix the issue. I hope I see some money from the lawsuit against them for this.

My blacks are gray on the Panny.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I have a TC-P50G10 and I wonder why my blacks still look as black as the bezel that surrounds the screen. I've read on quite a few sites about how grey some black levels look and I'm not seeing it. I did do a firmware upgrade a few months ago... :shrug:

Mike


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## MadManNBama (Jan 31, 2008)

To anyone who may come across this thread and is looking at a new HDTV, listen closely.

2010 Panasonic plasmas will not have an issue with black levels or floating blacks, or burn in. For the 2009 models, even when the black levels rise, they are still lower than Samsung, or LG plasmas (check AVS Forum or CNET) and much much lower than LEDs.

I have a new P54G25 plasma and my picture is near perfect and is just below the picture quality of the top of the line 3D VT25 line. 

My black levels are dark as ink and cannot be matched by any Samsung or Sony LED, even the backlit models. 

Plus, my Panny cost only a fraction of the LED sets and is the best bang for your buck out there. DirecTV's MPEG 4 HD really pops and only Blu Ray looks better.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

To add to that, even my late 2009 model seem to be fine. I have a 65S1 built in September 2009 that I bought in November that continues to measure absolute black at .008 ftL's, as of 3 weeks ago. I calibrated it myself and periodically check it. I also have both three and four year old Panny 42" plasmas with outstanding blacks.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MadManNBama said:


> To anyone who may come across this thread and is looking at a new HDTV, listen closely.
> 
> 2010 Panasonic plasmas will not have an issue with black levels or floating blacks, or burn in. For the 2009 models, even when the black levels rise, they are still lower than Samsung, or LG plasmas (check AVS Forum or CNET) and much much lower than LEDs.
> 
> ...


Thanks...good to know.

I have a friend looking....and he is a Panasonic fan.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

MadManNBama said:


> To anyone who may come across this thread and is looking at a new HDTV, listen closely.
> 
> 2010 Panasonic plasmas will not have an issue with black levels or floating blacks, or burn in. For the 2009 models, even when the black levels rise, they are still lower than Samsung, or LG plasmas (check AVS Forum or CNET) and much much lower than LEDs.
> 
> ...


I have a TC-P50G10 and agree with most of what of you have posted. However, the 2010 are affected by reducing black levels.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1167339

Panasonic has stated that this reducing black levels over time is done on purpose, though they won't say exactly why, and it affects the 2008, 2009, 2010 product lines.

I'm still a big fan of the Panasonic Plasmas. Mine is the best picture of any I've seen, even compared to my friends HDTVs. Even with the reduced levels it's measured black levels are better than any LCD on the market. I wouldn't trade my current Panasonic Plasma for any other TV on the market. BTW, the reduction in black levels is compared to it's starting levels and not to other TVs.

It is an issue for all the current Panasonic Plasmas including the 2010 models. AVS forum has a lot of good information including direct measurements of many of the current models.

Mike


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## Smthkd (Sep 1, 2004)

I third these guys comment! I have a 65S1 bought it 3 months ago. Counldnt be happier!


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