# Sixto Report-D12 Status: Pre-Launch



## Sixto

*Synopsis updated 8/11/2009 - Orbit Location (TLE) update after Launch*

*Status of the DirecTV-12 (D12) Satellite:*

D12 Launch Info:
Construction by Boeing expected to be completed by October 8th, 2009
Launch expected between 10/15/2009-11/14/2009 (per Schedule-S)
Launch service provider will be International Launch Services (ILS)
Via a Proton-M/Briz-M rocket
From Baikonaur (same as D10)
Target location is 103° W.L. (102.765°)

D12 CONUS:
16 transponders (TP9-TP24) of national bandwidth for MPEG4 HD from 103°
Each transponder supporting 5 HD channels for a total capacity of 80 national HD channels
Within the Ka-Hi (19890-20200 MHz) frequency range
Spaceway-1 (SW1) is currently allocated the entire Ka-Hi (19700-20200) frequency range, therefore it's expected that SW1 and D12 will now share the range, with SW1 using the lower end, and D12 using the higher end

D12 Local-in-Local (LiL):
10 transponders (TP15-TP24) of spot beam bandwidth for MPEG4 HD LiL from 103°
Supporting 49 spot beams
Within the Ka-Lo (18600-18800 MHz) frequency range (same as D10)
The spot beam bandwidth is for in-orbit redundancy or replacement for the spot beam capability of either D10 or D11 (if D12 were moved to 99°)

D12 RB-2A:
Named RB-2A for "BSS" payload on D12
18 transponders (TP1-TP18) of spot beam bandwidth for "niche services" from 103°
Supporting 4 spot beams to the "western U.S."
Within the BSS (17345-17700 MHz) frequency range
"This payload will allow DirecTV to begin providing commercial service in the 17/24 GHz BSS band before any other satellite operator in the world, making use of these valuable spectrum/orbital resources mere months after receiving its first license in the band".

*Progress of DirecTV-12:*

02/28/2008: DirecTV Investor Meeting Presentation:"Will launch D12 because the growing importance of HD warrants its use to expand national capacity. Launch expected late 2009. Capacity for more than 200 HD national channels"

Pages 17-18: http://investor.directv.com/common/...c&filename=001_Master_Handout_InvestorDay.pdf​
11/07/2008: DirecTV mention of "Proton" for D12 during an informal session. Also, "2009" mentioned.
01/07/2009: Chase Carey (DirecTV CEO) mentioned during a Citi Conference that D12 will be launched "middle" of 2009.
01/26/2009: "Late September: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur."http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html​
01/28/2009: Launch listed on Boeing website: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/launch_sched.html​
02/26/2009: 2008 DirecTV Annual Report:"With the launch of our DIRECTV 12 satellite later this year, we will gain another 50% increase in our national HD capacity to over 200 channels while offering local HD channels to more than 92% of households."

"DIRECTV 12 is planned for launch in the second half of 2009. DIRECTV 12 will operate from our 101° WL orbital location after successful completion of in-orbit testing."

Note: We've since found the 101° reference to be incorrect.​
8/7/2009, 8/11/2009: FCC Filings:D12 Application:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729763​D12 Exhibit-A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173017​D12 Exhibit-B (Request for Partial Waiver of Section 25.210(I) 30 DB Cross-Polarization Requirement):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173015​D12 Exhibit-C (Application for Authorization to Launch and Operate DirecTV 12):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173014​D12 Schedule-S (updated 8/11/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=730514​RB-2A Application:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729761​RB-2A Exhibit-A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173007​RB-2A Exhibit-B (Waiver Requests):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173008​RB-2A Exhibit-C (Application for Authorization to Launch and Operate DirecTV RB-2A):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173006​RB-2A Schedule-S:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173013​
*Boeing DirecTV-10/DirecTV-11/DirecTV-12 Fact Sheet:* www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf​*Two Line Element (TLE) Format:*
A NORAD two-line element (TLE) set consists of two 69-character lines of data which describe in detail a spacecraft's trajectory around the earth. Calculated and published by the U.S. government regularly.

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html​
*Current D12 TLE & Orbital History:* 


Code:


Awaiting Launch in 2009

*Tracking (Pictorial View):*Placeholder​*Launch Photos:*Placeholder​*The current DirecTV HD listing can be found* here

*Contributors to the information above:* *Sixto, LameLefty*


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## Sixto

Placeholder for more information.


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## Paul A

Oh Boy, I can't wait!!!

Thanks Sixto for all that you do!!!!


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## CJTE

Wow. DirecTV 11 isnt even parked in its official location and we're getting info on D12.

Right On.

But having to wait to late 2009... Yikes!


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## DodgerKing

can we get a mod to make this a sticky and delete this particular post by me?


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## OverThereTooMuch

DodgerKing said:


> can we get a mod to make this a sticky and delete this particular post by me?


Isn't it a little early to sticky this? It's a year away.


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## DodgerKing

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Isn't it a little early to sticky this? It's a year away.


He will still be doing updates and in the meantime it will get lost somewhere here in this forum...


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## Doug Brott

OverThereTooMuch said:


> Isn't it a little early to sticky this? It's a year away.


Probably, but I'm sure you guys will find something to talk about


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## LameLefty

Doug Brott said:


> Probably, but I'm sure you guys will find something to talk about


Like, oh, say . . . we need to figure out who the launch contract is with. With Chase Carey telling investors that D12 will be launched second half 2009, they almost certainly have at least an option on a launch slot with one of the major providers - ILS via a Proton/Breeze from Baikonaur like D10; Sea-Launch via a Zenit SL3/Block DM from the equator like D11; Arianespace via Ariane 5 from Kourou, French Guiana; or a ULA Atlas V from Florida. The first two are the more likely options given the success of both D10 and D11. However, ILS has had a couple failures of their Breeze upper stage since D10, and Sea-Launch had a failure prior to their later success of D11.

In any event, those who have a desire and aptitude for digging around the investor documents of the entities in question might be able to locate the "smoking rocket" so to speak.


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## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Probably, but I'm sure you guys will find something to talk about


We always do..... 

Seriously though...I suspect D12 will be launched as a clone of D11 (it is already), with the same kind of mission to be a flagship sat and to replace an older one. Perhaps if they learn anything in the months ahead from D11 like they did for D10, they may modify it slightly, but otherwise, it should be a repeat performance.


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## smiddy

Are there any launch sites in South America? I would go with something like that if I knew of a place to launch from...


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## cforrest

smiddy said:


> Are there any launch sites in South America? I would go with something like that if I knew of a place to launch from...


http://www.arianespace.com

Located in French Guiana!


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## Sixto

Per LameLefty, have added the 5 launch site possibilities to post#1 and added a "contributors" tagline to acknowledge those who significantly contribute along the way.


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## Christopher Gould

they have used Arianespace also. its been awhile, but i know they have. once was even a dual satellite launch. are they out of the running for future launches? cost failures


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## Tom Robertson

The original contract for D10/D11/D12 lists several heavy lift satellite launchers that the satellites must be capable of launched thru:


> [Boeing] will ensure that the Satellites will be technically compatible for Launch on each of
> the following potential launch vehicles: Sea Launch (6100), Arianespace 5 ECA, Atlas 5
> (521) and/or ProtonM/BreezeM Long Fairing Phase 1 (the "Candidate Launch Vehicles").
> Contractor shall not take any action during the construction of the Satellites that would
> preclude Launch by any of the Candidate Launch Vehicles.


Cheers,
Tom


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## Drew2k

Sixto - Maybe you can add a new section to Post 1: "About D12". For example, is D12 a true clone of D11, right down to the experimental BSS payload? Or is it missing that payload? How does it differ from D10 and D11?

Regarding BSS and what is possible with a launch over a year away: Is there any possibility anything will change before the D12 launch with BSS technology, either with FCC authorizations or the payload itself?

(Great job on the info posted already, by the way!)


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## Tom Robertson

Drew2k, 

Yes it is possible that the FCC might approve a BSS license in time for D12--but remember that package would have to be built in very soon to make a build/testing/launch cycle for a late 2009. I very much doubt D12 has much of anything in the way of a BSS package as that would be very high risk of expense at this time.

Cheers,
Tom


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## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> The original contract for D10/D11/D12 lists several heavy lift satellite launchers that the satellites must be capable of launched thru:
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Excellent! Thanks, Tom! I guess my appraisal was pretty much right on.


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## Sixto

Drew2k said:


> Sixto - Maybe you can add a new section to Post 1: "About D12". For example, is D12 a true clone of D11, right down to the experimental BSS payload? Or is it missing that payload? How does it differ from D10 and D11?
> 
> Regarding BSS and what is possible with a launch over a year away: Is there any possibility anything will change before the D12 launch with BSS technology, either with FCC authorizations or the payload itself?
> 
> (Great job on the info posted already, by the way!)


Thanks Drew.

Yep, gonna add a few new sections for D12 ... and have plenty of time between now and 2009!


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## TheRatPatrol

Any guesses to which orbital slot this will go in? How many satellites can each slot hold?

With D12, they can have up 200 national HD channels. But what happens if every channel goes HD, will they have the capacity for that, can they use the existing satellites at 101 for more HD expansion, or is there a D13 in the long term plans?

Thanks


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## Tom Robertson

Yes, there are 5 guesses as to which slot. :lol:

It will not go in 110 or 119. 

It will almost certainly not go in 101.

If DIRECTV keeps alternating, 103? 

DIRECTV tells me they have lots of bandwidth available. I take that to mean if all the channels go HD, DIRECTV will be ready. It will be interesting to see who will be the last SD channel standing. I suspect we will see waves of SD channel conversions, and DIRECTV is preparing for them. 

As for satellites in each slot, 101 has (or had) at least 6 that I'm aware of. (Not all are DIRECTV.) The real question is how many satellites will it take to completely fill the allocated bandwidth. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## TheRatPatrol

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, there are 5 guesses as to which slot. :lol:
> 
> It will not go in 110 or 119.
> 
> It will almost certainly not go in 101.
> 
> If DIRECTV keeps alternating, 103?
> 
> DIRECTV tells me they have lots of bandwidth available. I take that to mean if all the channels go HD, DIRECTV will be ready. It will be interesting to see who will be the last SD channel standing. I suspect we will see waves of SD channel conversions, and DIRECTV is preparing for them.
> 
> As for satellites in each slot, 101 has (or had) at least 6 that I'm aware of. (Not all are DIRECTV.) The real question is how many satellites will it take to completely fill the allocated bandwidth.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Tom, thats good news to hear.


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## Drew2k

Tom Robertson said:


> Drew2k,
> 
> Yes it is possible that the FCC might approve a BSS license in time for D12--but remember that package would have to be built in very soon to make a build/testing/launch cycle for a late 2009. I very much doubt D12 has much of anything in the way of a BSS package as that would be very high risk of expense at this time.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Tom. From the first post stating D12 was originally planned as an on-ground spare, does that mean it's actually already fully assembled and tested, and just needs to be shipped to a launch facility?


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## Tom Robertson

Drew2k said:


> Thanks Tom. From the first post stating D12 was originally planned as an on-ground spare, does that mean it's actually already fully assembled and tested, and just needs to be shipped to a launch facility?


Um... I'm not 100% sure. Somethings might be hard to mothball in a fully assembled and tested state, particularly items that suffer oxidation quickly.

I suspect it is in as close to being shipping ready as is possible for a late next year scheduled launch. Does that make sense?

Cheers,
Tom


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## Drew2k

Tom Robertson said:


> Um... I'm not 100% sure. Somethings might be hard to mothball in a fully assembled and tested state, particularly items that suffer oxidation quickly.
> 
> I suspect it is in as close to being shipping ready as is possible for a late next year scheduled launch. Does that make sense?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yup! I didn't mean to say it would just be sitting in a crate marked "Destination: Sea Launch", either, just waiting to be loaded onto a flatbed! 

I would assume it's in a secure clean room, but given some of the posts about potential changes with a BSS payload (if even present on D12) or whether something has to be corrected on D12 based on any issues or problems found in D11, I was just curious how much flexibility Boeing (it is Boeing building it, right) would have to make modifications. It sounds like there's some leeway as long as they fit it in the window you described earlier for testing. Thanks again!


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## inkahauts

This may have been asked and answer, I don't recall... I know someone has researched and confirmed that no sat dish available today is capable of receiving KA-Lo signals from D10, D11, D12 at 101.... How about KA-Hi at 101? Maybe a Spaceway goes to 101 to make room for D-12


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## inkahauts

Not to spoil everyone's fun... but ya know one of these d-12 threads was actually started a while ago... and I just found it....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123959

Where is Directv-12 anyway?

Some speculating on how Directv may stack D12 in is in there... Making my last post a bit stupid!


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## geagles

So I have a question. Is Directv putting D12 at 107 degrees WL. I am not sure what this filing means. Perhaps those who are a more smarter than I am can explain. 

Thanks

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 S2242 DIRECTV ENTERPRISES, LLC
The description of the applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 contained an error. The following is the correct description of the
applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 (File Nos. SAT-LOA-19970605-00049, SAT-AMD-20051118-00226,

SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 and SAT-AMD-20080321-00078) that were accepted for filing on Report No. SAT-00535, rel. July 3, 2008.
DIRECTV Enterprises, L.L.C. (DIRECTV) requests authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service
(BSS) space station at the 107° W.L. orbital location, which is an Appendix F location as set forth in the 17/24 GHz BSS Report and Order,
FCC 07-76 (rel. May 4, 2007), at full power and with full interference protection. (See FCC 07-76 and 07-174 for a complete explanation of
the rules and policies regarding the spacing framework and interference protections adopted by the Commission). DIRECTV seeks to use
the 17.3 -17.7 (space-to-Earth) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands. DIRECTV seeks to perform telemetry, tracking, and
command operations at the lower edges of the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) and the 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands.


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## geagles

*More smarter *was a bad choice of wording. lol. The reason I ask is I don't see anything about it being a temporary location for testing BSS.


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## JLucPicard

I don't believe that filing has anything to do with D12.


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## Mike Bertelson

DirecTV keeps pushing to keep the advantage.

This is great news.

Thanks Sixto. Great work.

Mike


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## LameLefty

geagles said:


> So I have a question. Is Directv putting D12 at 107 degrees WL. I am not sure what this filing means. Perhaps those who are a more smarter than I am can explain.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 S2242 DIRECTV ENTERPRISES, LLC
> The description of the applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 contained an error. The following is the correct description of the
> applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 (File Nos. SAT-LOA-19970605-00049, SAT-AMD-20051118-00226,
> 
> SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 and SAT-AMD-20080321-00078) that were accepted for filing on Report No. SAT-00535, rel. July 3, 2008.
> DIRECTV Enterprises, L.L.C. (DIRECTV) requests authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service
> (BSS) space station at the 107° W.L. orbital location, which is an Appendix F location as set forth in the 17/24 GHz BSS Report and Order,
> FCC 07-76 (rel. May 4, 2007), at full power and with full interference protection. (See FCC 07-76 and 07-174 for a complete explanation of
> the rules and policies regarding the spacing framework and interference protections adopted by the Commission). DIRECTV seeks to use
> the 17.3 -17.7 (space-to-Earth) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands. DIRECTV seeks to perform telemetry, tracking, and
> command operations at the lower edges of the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) and the 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands.


That's is an interesting filing, particularly as it references a July 2008 filing date. It seems to me that might be a putative "D13" or perhaps even "D14" dedicated BSS satellite. Who if anyone currently holds licenses for 107W?


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## merchione

inkahauts said:


> Not to spoil everyone's fun... but ya know one of these d-12 threads was actually started a while ago...


This is the only one that counts.


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## Tom Robertson

inkahauts said:


> This may have been asked and answer, I don't recall... I know someone has researched and confirmed that no sat dish available today is capable of receiving KA-Lo signals from D10, D11, D12 at 101.... How about KA-Hi at 101? Maybe a Spaceway goes to 101 to make room for D-12


None of the 5lnb designs support Ka at 101. I also suspect none of the new SL3 designs do either.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

geagles said:


> So I have a question. Is Directv putting D12 at 107 degrees WL. I am not sure what this filing means. Perhaps those who are a more smarter than I am can explain.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 S2242 DIRECTV ENTERPRISES, LLC
> The description of the applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 contained an error. The following is the correct description of the
> applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 (File Nos. SAT-LOA-19970605-00049, SAT-AMD-20051118-00226,
> 
> SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 and SAT-AMD-20080321-00078) that were accepted for filing on Report No. SAT-00535, rel. July 3, 2008.
> DIRECTV Enterprises, L.L.C. (DIRECTV) requests authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service
> *(BSS)* space station at the 107° W.L. orbital location, which is an Appendix F location as set forth in the 17/24 GHz BSS Report and Order,
> FCC 07-76 (rel. May 4, 2007), at full power and with full interference protection. (See FCC 07-76 and 07-174 for a complete explanation of
> the rules and policies regarding the spacing framework and interference protections adopted by the Commission). DIRECTV seeks to use
> the 17.3 -17.7 (space-to-Earth) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands. DIRECTV seeks to perform telemetry, tracking, and
> command operations at the lower edges of the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) and the 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands.


These are corrections to re-filings to request orbital licenses in the newest satellite to home band, commonly called BSS or "reverse" band. This was the band that DIRECTV11 just did some testing with a surprise package of tranponder(s) at location 101.

So in short, this will not be D12. We'll see more and more BSS band info over the next couple years, but the next step will be the FCC allocating licenses.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> That's is an interesting filing, particularly as it references a July 2008 filing date. It seems to me that might be a putative "D13" or perhaps even "D14" dedicated BSS satellite. Who if anyone currently holds licenses for 107W?


No licenses for BSS have been released, so no one does yet.  I expect we'll see license allocations soon--in FCC terms. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## bjlc

well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..

Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year. 

Some kid working on his high school science project. 


Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..


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## LameLefty

bjlc said:


> well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..
> 
> Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.
> 
> Some kid working on his high school science project.
> 
> Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..


That's wrong on just so many levels.


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## Tom Robertson

bjlc said:


> well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..
> 
> Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.
> 
> Some kid working on his high school science project.
> 
> Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..


My guess is capital expense flow and investor expectations against real need with a mixture of satellite launcher availability.

Cheers,
Tom


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## geagles

Thanks Tom, It thru me because of the request to operate at 107 WL. I know they have tested D11 there but only tested it. This appeared to indicate a permanent location for a new satellite. 
Again, thanks for the rapid response. 
As you say 
Cheers and a good day to ya.


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## n3ntj

Thanks for the info, guys. I am exciting about D12 already and D11 isn't even 'in service' yet.

Is this thread going to be a 'Sticky'?


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## Mike Bertelson

n3ntj said:


> Thanks for the info, guys. I am exciting about D12 already and D11 isn't even 'in service' yet.
> 
> Is this thread going to be a 'Sticky'?


I'm sure there will be a sticky but it may be a bit early. However, there seems be a lot of interest in a sticky so who knows. :grin:

You'll know it when it happens. 

Mike


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## evan_s

bjlc said:


> well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..
> 
> Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.
> 
> Some kid working on his high school science project.
> 
> Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..


I suspect it's also a matter of not having a need for it. Once D11 gets up and running and filled up DirecTV should be very close to carrying all the HD channels that are available to carry. Launching another expensive sat to add another 5 or 10 channels isn't really a good idea financially. Since it's one big expense they do need to make sure there is use for it.

There is also the other side of things to consider. There's a lot of infrastructure needed on the ground to handle these in addition to the sat in the sky. They need facilities to transmit the signal to the sat, hardware at those facilities to compress and combine the different signals and some way to get the info to these facilities in the first place. All of this takes time too and you can't significantly accelerate these plans with out greatly increasing the cost.


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## Tom Robertson

MicroBeta said:


> I'm sure there will be a sticky but it may be a bit early. However, there seems be a lot of interest in a sticky so who knows. :grin:
> 
> You'll know it when it happens.
> 
> Mike


As a compliment to Sixto's excellent work, this thread has a very good chance of being the one that get's stickied. Normally this would be earlier than we would sticky something, but this thread has shown it has legs 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Ernie

geagles said:


> So I have a question. Is Directv putting D12 at 107 degrees WL. I am not sure what this filing means. Perhaps those who are a more smarter than I am can explain.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 S2242 DIRECTV ENTERPRISES, LLC
> The description of the applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 contained an error. The following is the correct description of the
> applications associated with Call Sign: S2242 (File Nos. SAT-LOA-19970605-00049, SAT-AMD-20051118-00226,
> 
> SAT-AMD-20080114-00015 and SAT-AMD-20080321-00078) that were accepted for filing on Report No. SAT-00535, rel. July 3, 2008.
> DIRECTV Enterprises, L.L.C. (DIRECTV) requests authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service
> (BSS) space station at the 107° W.L. orbital location, which is an Appendix F location as set forth in the 17/24 GHz BSS Report and Order,
> FCC 07-76 (rel. May 4, 2007), at full power and with full interference protection. (See FCC 07-76 and 07-174 for a complete explanation of
> the rules and policies regarding the spacing framework and interference protections adopted by the Commission). DIRECTV seeks to use
> the 17.3 -17.7 (space-to-Earth) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands. DIRECTV seeks to perform telemetry, tracking, and
> command operations at the lower edges of the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) and the 24.75-25.15 GHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands.


Actually, this refers to RB-3, a planned BSS bird. Read about it at: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141467

Just to make things interesting, RB-5 is planned for 119, so all the people complaining about line-of-site problems to 119 will get a chance to it again.

Ernie


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## tkrandall

Ernie said:


> Actually, this refers to RB-3, a planned BSS bird. Read about it at: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141467
> 
> Just to make things interesting, RB-5 is planned for 119, so all the people complaining about line-of-site problems to 119 will get a chance to it again.
> 
> Ernie


ugh! not 107W much less 119W. go east, like to 95W!!!


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## jefbal99

So the fleet of BSS birds will be RB-#?

Do we have all the orbital locations for what I would assume to be RB1-RB5?


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## Athlon646464

I would like to be the first in this 200 page (at the very least) thread to ask the following:

1) When will it go live? (My guess is Wednesday February 15, 2010)

2) Will this mean less 'compression' on my 175 HD channels?

3) Do you think Fox News HD will be re-mapped?

4) Sixto - what the hell is a TLE?

Thanks in advance..........

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## HoTat2

I just don’t see how D12 is going to fit into the mix as presently configured. As other than an in orbit spare. Or maybe contribute more spotbeams. Since all the Ka B-band CONUS transponder frequencies are pretty much filled already at both 99 and the 103 slots by D10 and D11. And the 101/110/119 slots are out of the question.

Therefore the advertised increase to 200 national HD channels with the future launch and deployment of D12 cannot be correct with the current receiving equipment. :nono2:


----------



## jefbal99

HoTat2 said:


> I just don't see how D12 is going to fit into the mix as presently configured. As other than an in orbit spare. Or maybe contribute more spotbeams. Since all the Ka B-band CONUS transponder frequencies are pretty much filled already at both 99 and the 103 slots by D10 and D11. And the 101/110/119 slots are out of the question.
> 
> Therefore the advertised increase to 200 national HD channels with the future launch and deployment of D12 cannot be correct with the current receiving equipment. :nono2:


Depends on how they rework the stack plan


----------



## HoTat2

jefbal99 said:


> Depends on how they rework the stack plan


By "stack plan" I assume you mean the "stacking" of the LNB down-frequency bands.

But how can you actually rework the current 13V/18V or + 22KHz controlled Ka-lo 250-750 MHz (R/LHCP); Ku 950-1450 MHz (R/LHCP); and Ka-hi 1650-2150 MHz (R/LHCP), stack plan with the present subscriber reception gear?


----------



## evan_s

HoTat2 said:


> I just don't see how D12 is going to fit into the mix as presently configured. As other than an in orbit spare. Or maybe contribute more spotbeams. Since all the Ka B-band CONUS transponder frequencies are pretty much filled already at both 99 and the 103 slots by D10 and D11. And the 101/110/119 slots are out of the question.
> 
> Therefore the advertised increase to 200 national HD channels with the future launch and deployment of D12 cannot be correct with the current receiving equipment. :nono2:


Assuming they launch D12 still configured like D10 and D11 with only KA low transmission capabilities I expect they will end up playing around with the conus and spot allocations. Currently the spot patterns for the the Ka spots seems to be pretty loose with many people seeing lots of 0's.

Lets say they put d12 at 99. They bump the total conus transponders there from 14 to 18. Half from each d11 and d12. They tighten up the spot patterns from 99s to add more spots to both increase total spot capacity and to move some spots back off D10. D10 fires up more conus transponders from 103c. Net effect of more conus and spot capacity. Yeah it would be simpler if they had a nice empty spot to put it in like d11 at 99 but a single sat at each location isn't enough to fill the entire 500mhz ka lo band especially with quite a few channels to use for spots. DirecTV has 4 sats at 101 to fill that slot up. They've already shown they can fire up extra conus transponders with d10 running 16 instead of 14.

The other possibility is a small? retrofit to d12 to use ka hi instead of ka lo. Ka hi at each slot currently only has spaceway 1 and 2 which use no conus transponders and have the advantage of using the phased arrays so are very flexible to be reconfigured while in orbit.

Either way I'm sure DirecTV is already planning this out or they wouldn't be going through everything to launch D12.

Personally I suspect the first is more likely since they are only stating an additional 50 channels from d12 compared to the 75 d10 and d11 have been providing basically. Either way they do it they won't need to do anything with the stack plan. The only reason they would need to redo the stack plan would be if they where receiving another 500mhz block like Ka lo from 101 but as far as we can tell our LNBs couldn't receive that and its actually already in use for backhalling by DirecTV.


----------



## Dolly

Late in 2009 and we already have 3 pages :eek2: Nothing like an early start


----------



## tkrandall

jefbal99 said:


> So the fleet of BSS birds will be RB-#?
> 
> Do we have all the orbital locations for what I would assume to be RB1-RB5?


I would like to know this as well, as anything west of 99/101/103 or so will be a problem for me, at least with a single dish installation.

Man, just when I think I am "out of the woods" and will only need 99/101/103 from here on, I get this news about these BSS satellites and their to be at 107w and 119w.

Any speculation of what specific services DTV intends to use these for?


----------



## Sixto

Athlon646464 said:


> I would like to be the first in this 200 page (at the very least) thread to ask the following:
> 
> 1) When will it go live? (My guess is Wednesday February 15, 2010)
> 
> 2) Will this mean less 'compression' on my 175 HD channels?
> 
> 3) Do you think Fox News HD will be re-mapped?
> 
> 4) Sixto - what the hell is a TLE?
> 
> Thanks in advance..........
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Welcome.

1. Hopefully will go "live" late 2009. Most likely 60-90 days after launch. No idea yet of launch date or launch provider.

2. D12 will add capacity for at least an additional 50 HD channels. The additional bandwidth most likely will not effect "compression" but it all depends on the bandwidth requirements in late 2009.

3. Best guess is that Fox News HD will be "live" very soon. I'm guessing 8/14 but nothing has been announced.

4) TLE description is in post#1.


----------



## Athlon646464

Sixto said:


> Welcome.


Ha! 

Thanks Sixto..........

......... but

(My post was meant to be tongue in cheek  )

I read the whole D11 thread as it happened, and thought I'd get that stuff out of the way before you were inundated with it again (I knew the answers).


----------



## Sirshagg




----------



## Doug Brott

Sirshagg said:


>


Yes, this can be officially described as "Not Soon!" :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sirshagg said:


>


You're an animal....  :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## curt8403

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, this can be officially described as "Not Soon!" :lol:


or MonSoon?


----------



## wearsch

Sirshagg said:


>


So I guess you're saying it's too early to start checking the "Channels I Get" list at 5am CST on Wednesdays/Thursdays?


----------



## curt8403

wearsch said:


> So I guess you're saying it's too early to start checking the "Channels I Get" list at 5am CST on Wednesdays/Thursdays?


yes, for at least 1 year
:sure:


----------



## houskamp

Are we there yet??? :grin:


----------



## curt8403

houskamp said:


> Are we there yet??? :grin:


for D11, we are there, for D12, Stop buggin yer pop, and let him concentrate on drivin.


----------



## syphix

curt8403 said:


> Stop buggin yer pop, and let him concentrate on drivin.


If you kids don't stop it...and I mean _*NOW*_....we'll turn this satellite around and go right back home!!!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

evan_s said:


> Personally I suspect the first is more likely since they are only stating an additional 50 channels from d12 compared to the 75 d10 and d11 have been providing basically. Either way they do it they won't need to do anything with the stack plan. The only reason they would need to redo the stack plan would be if they where receiving another 500mhz block like Ka lo from 101 but as far as we can tell our LNBs couldn't receive that and its actually already in use for backhalling by DirecTV.


A few questions

1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)

2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?

3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?

4. What are they backhauling at 101?

Thanks


----------



## hdtvfan0001

houskamp said:


> Are we there yet??? :grin:


What are the odds...I just saw that annoying commercial for Universal Studios with the Simpsons - Bart and Lisa were in the back seat asking......

"Are we There Yet"...over and over........almost the same time you posted..... 

Hmmmmmmm.


----------



## Ernie

jefbal99 said:


> So the fleet of BSS birds will be RB-#?
> 
> Do we have all the orbital locations for what I would assume to be RB1-RB5?


The requested locations are at:
RB-1 at 99°
RB-2 at 103°
RB-3 at 107°
RB-4 at 111°
RB-5 at 119°

As far as I can tell the FCC hasn't approved the requests. Possibly because DIRECTV has already changed their minds. Originally they had birds at 96.5° W.L., 101° W.L., and 105.5°

Of course, by the time they are approved, the birds are put out for bid, the contracts made, the birds get built, and a launch date opens up, it may be a while before we see any new channels. So, I wouldn't make any hasty plans around their arrival.

Ernie


----------



## Tom Robertson

theratpatrol said:


> A few questions
> 
> 1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)
> 
> 2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?
> 
> 3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?
> 
> 4. What are they backhauling at 101?
> 
> Thanks


The Stack Plan is how the blocks of 500MHz bandwidth are "stacked" onto a coax infrastructure that might be only rated to slightly over 2GHz.

DIRECTV stacks 3 500MHz blocks onto the coax: 250-750MHz, 950-1450MHz, and 1650-2150MHz.

And there are 4 selections a receiver can make: 13V with no tone, 18V with no tone (the 101 and 99 orbital slots) 13V with 22KHz signal tone, and 18V with tone (the 110/119/103 slots). The KU sats: 101, 110, and 119 are in the middle "stack", 950-1450MHz. Ka are above and below.

FYI: OTA and cable are roughly 50MHz thru 900MHz.

So where would DIRECTV put Ka at 101? All the stack plans are currenly full as we know it. My only guess is above the rest and be at 2350-2850MHz, meaning the entire infrastructure must be rated at 3GHz.

Then comes BSS...

So 2) new LNB is required. Some home setups might also need new cable that supports 3GHz. Or something else.

3) D12 might be also some redundancy capacity. D12 won't be going at 101 as we would have heard about a new LNB/stackplan/etc long ago.  Clearly DIRECTV has some sneaky trick up there sleeve to more fully use the bandwidth at 99 and 103... 

4) At 101, DIRECTV is mostly backhauling locals as far as I know. I think all the networks themselves they get via fibre or other satellite feeds.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> At 101, DIRECTV is mostly backhauling locals as far as I know. I think all the networks themselves they get via fibre or other satellite feeds.


I'm suddenly getting this vision of a guy with a hairnet standing in front of a green tarped large object behind him....again........


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ernie said:


> The requested locations are at:
> RB-1 at 99°
> RB-2 at 103°
> RB-3 at 107°
> RB-4 at 111°
> RB-5 at 119°
> 
> As far as I can tell the FCC hasn't approved the requests. Possibly because DIRECTV has already changed their minds. Originally they had birds at 96.5° W.L., 101° W.L., and 105.5°
> 
> Of course, by the time they are approved, the birds are put out for bid, the contracts made, the birds get built, and a launch date opens up, it may be a while before we see any new channels. So, I wouldn't make any hasty plans around their arrival.
> 
> Ernie


Part of the apparent "mind changing" is the FCC has settled on the locations and spacing for BSS satellites--which was a change from the original "estimated" locations when these were first filed many years ago. All the original filers were given an opportunity to re-file without penalty to correct to the new spacing.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## spartanstew

Dolly said:


> Late in 2009 and we already have 3 pages :eek2: Nothing like an early start


No S***.

Since I probably won't be visiting this thread again for quite awhile, I'd just like to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and a Fabulous Fourth of July.


----------



## evan_s

theratpatrol said:


> A few questions
> 
> 1. What exactly is the stack plan? (parking alignment for the sats?)


The sats are so close together, relatively speaking, that as far as the dish is concerned it can't tell the difference.

No the stacking plan is how the signal gets from the dish to your receiver(s). There a couple of basic signals used by the receiver to tell the dish which signal(s) it wants. It start off just sending 13v or 18v to pick between the 2 polarities of the signal which also corresponds to even or odd transponders.

Then when they started using 110/119 they needed an additional signal so they used a 22khz tone and 13/18v to select between the even and odds there. 110 & 119 are combined together at the dish because even together they don't fill up one block entirely.

When they started doing the Ka sats rather than adding more signals they decided to stack more signals on each combination. The Ka actually have 2 blocks at each orbital location so needed 2 slots in the stacking plan. The ka hi and ka lo from 99 are sent the same time as the 101 signal and the ones from 103 are sent the same time as 110/119.

This is also where the bbc comes in. The receiver can't directly tune the ka lo in the stack plan so it activates the bbc when it needs that part and the bbc switches it up to the ka hi portion replacing the ka hi.

The image shows the stack plan as listed in the WB68 manual.












> 2. Would a new LNB to receive Ka at 101 help?


A new LNB could allow us to receive KA at 101 yes. I don't think they will take that route however. It would require a new lnb which means new hardware and an install scheduled for every customer that has a current hd install. Because of the specifics it would also mean swapping out every old at9 sidecar dish to do it realistically. That's a lot of costs to eat. 


> 3. If D12 is the same as D10 and D11, why only 50 national HD channels and not 75?


My guess for that is it a combination of factors.
1) 200 hd channels is a lot of national channels and by using less capacity for National HD channels they can use more spot beams to provide more Locals to markets they don't have them and add missing local channels in other markets.

2) limits on how much bandwidth they have to use at one slot as national channels. Since d10 and d11 and probably d12 are configured just for ka lo they only have 1 500mhz block to work with. Currently d10 is running 16 transponders but was originally planned for 14 and d11 is running 14. 14 transponders at the size DirecTV is running them ends up using a little over half the bandwidth in the 500mhz ka lo slot. 24 would be the max possible.

Currently we expect once thing settle down we'll have 28 transponders worth of HD channels coming from d10 and d11 for national content. If we had a completely empty orbital slot for d12 we would expect another 14 transponders worth ending up at a total of 42 but we won't be able to do that. When d12 launches I expect some shuffling around of things.

For example D12 ends up at 99. D11 and D12 at 99 running a total of 18 or 20 conus transponders with 4 or 6 left to use for lots of spot running from both sats. (spots can reuse the same transponder frequency because they aim at different areas and don't interfere with each other). D10 running at 103 will then turn off some of it's spot capacity moving those locals to 99 and fire up more conus transponders and be back up 16-18 by it's self.

Net total is 34-38 conus transponders which puts us right around 200 total hd channels with a lot more spots total with more of them coming from 99 than 103. A little shuffling and they get plenty of use from d12 with out a reconfigure and can later in life shuffle things around more to cover failures. It also maximizes their install base of receivers.

If you are interested in more details toms got a great post at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


> 4. What are they backhauling at 101?
> 
> Thanks


Backhauling is a pretty simple idea. DirecTV gets tv signals from all over the us to gather up the locals and from who knows where when dealing with the premium channels and needs to get all of it back to it's uplink centers where it does what ever it needs to and sends them up to the sats to be beamed down to us. It has to get those signals there some how so it uses sats for that process. Backhauling also gets used by other things like news channels. It's how the signal gets from those live reporters back to the studio using a truck with a dish on it.

Edit

I see tom snuck in with a shorter quicker response already but I typed it up so I'll leave it here =)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

spartanstew said:


> Since I probably won't be visiting this thread again for quite awhile, I'd just like to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and a Fabulous Fourth of July.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## tkrandall

Ernie said:


> The requested locations are at:
> RB-1 at 99°
> RB-2 at 103°
> RB-3 at 107°
> RB-4 at 111°
> RB-5 at 119°
> 
> Ernie


I can't imagine what a combined Ku+Ka+BSS (with 5 slots) dish would look like.


----------



## Sirshagg

tkrandall said:


> I can't imagine what a combined Ku+Ka+BSS (with 5 slots) dish would look like.


bud


----------



## Tom Robertson

tkrandall said:


> I can't imagine what a combined Ku+Ka+BSS (with 5 slots) dish would look like.


The dish will very likely look exactly like a slimline. 

The LNB array on the other hand...


----------



## Tom Robertson

evan_s said:


> ...<excellent treatise on stacking redacted, please look at evan_s' great post>
> Edit
> 
> I see tom snuck in with a shorter quicker response already but I typed it up so I'll leave it here =)


I'm glad you typed it up and left it. It was an excellent compliment to my way of saying things.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom Robertson said:


> No licenses for BSS have been released, so no one does yet.  I expect we'll see license allocations soon--in FCC terms.


The FCC needs to get on the ball as I noticed this story on SkyREPORT the other day:



> *Telesat Wins Key Spectrum Licenses*
> This week, Canadian satellite operator Telesat was awarded six "approvals-in-principle" for the development of BSS (broadcast satellite service) and FSS (fixed satellite service) frequencies by government regulator Industry Canada.


*FULL STORY*

~Alan


----------



## HoTat2

evan_s said:


> The sats are so close together, relatively speaking, that as far as the dish is concerned it can't tell the difference.
> 
> No the stacking plan is how the signal gets from the dish to your receiver(s). There a couple of basic signals used by the receiver to tell the dish which signal(s) it wants. It start off just sending 13v or 18v to pick between the 2 polarities of the signal which also corresponds to even or odd transponders.
> 
> Then when they started using 110/119 they needed an additional signal so they used a 22khz tone and 13/18v to select between the even and odds there. 110 & 119 are combined together at the dish because even together they don't fill up one block entirely.
> 
> When they started doing the Ka sats rather than adding more signals they decided to stack more signals on each combination. The Ka actually have 2 blocks at each orbital location so needed 2 slots in the stacking plan. The ka hi and ka lo from 99 are sent the same time as the 101 signal and the ones from 103 are sent the same time as 110/119.
> 
> This is also where the bbc comes in. The receiver can't directly tune the ka lo in the stack plan so it activates the bbc when it needs that part and the bbc switches it up to the ka hi portion replacing the ka hi.
> 
> The image shows the stack plan as listed in the WB68 manual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A new LNB could allow us to receive KA at 101 yes. I don't think they will take that route however. It would require a new lnb which means new hardware and an install scheduled for every customer that has a current hd install. Because of the specifics it would also mean swapping out every old at9 sidecar dish to do it realistically. That's a lot of costs to eat.
> 
> My guess for that is it a combination of factors.
> 1) 200 hd channels is a lot of national channels and by using less capacity for National HD channels they can use more spot beams to provide more Locals to markets they don't have them and add missing local channels in other markets.
> 
> 2) limits on how much bandwidth they have to use at one slot as national channels. Since d10 and d11 and probably d12 are configured just for ka lo they only have 1 500mhz block to work with. Currently d10 is running 16 transponders but was originally planned for 14 and d11 is running 14. 14 transponders at the size DirecTV is running them ends up using a little over half the bandwidth in the 500mhz ka lo slot. 24 would be the max possible.
> 
> Currently we expect once thing settle down we'll have 28 transponders worth of HD channels coming from d10 and d11 for national content. If we had a completely empty orbital slot for d12 we would expect another 14 transponders worth ending up at a total of 42 but we won't be able to do that. When d12 launches I expect some shuffling around of things.
> 
> For example D12 ends up at 99. D11 and D12 at 99 running a total of 18 or 20 conus transponders with 4 or 6 left to use for lots of spot running from both sats. (spots can reuse the same transponder frequency because they aim at different areas and don't interfere with each other). D10 running at 103 will then turn off some of it's spot capacity moving those locals to 99 and fire up more conus transponders and be back up 16-18 by it's self.
> 
> Net total is 34-38 conus transponders which puts us right around 200 total hd channels with a lot more spots total with more of them coming from 99 than 103. A little shuffling and they get plenty of use from d12 with out a reconfigure and can later in life shuffle things around more to cover failures. It also maximizes their install base of receivers.
> 
> If you are interested in more details toms got a great post at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295
> 
> Backhauling is a pretty simple idea. DirecTV gets tv signals from all over the us to gather up the locals and from who knows where when dealing with the premium channels and needs to get all of it back to it's uplink centers where it does what ever it needs to and sends them up to the sats to be beamed down to us. It has to get those signals there some how so it uses sats for that process. Backhauling also gets used by other things like news channels. It's how the signal gets from those live reporters back to the studio using a truck with a dish on it.
> 
> Edit
> 
> I see tom snuck in with a shorter quicker response already but I typed it up so I'll leave it here =)


Fine post evan_s

But just to make sure I understand you here. Assuming D12 goes to the 99 slot and will be sharing the Ka B-band along with D11. The key to its ability to increase the national HD channel capacity while preserving spot beam capacity.

Is based on;

1) The ability of the D10/11/12 series satellites to reconfigure their mix between CONUS and spotbeam frequencies?

2) And more important. The remaining 4-6 spotbeam frequencies in your example left on D11 and D12 may be combined as a 8-12 composite group, even though each half of the group will use the same downlink frequencies. Since they would be assigned to different spotbeams, and thus spatially separated?


----------



## evan_s

1) Yes. They've already run D10 at 16 transponders instead of the planned 14 and it still isn't using all of it's conus transponders. It also seems to be doing less spots than expect but not sure if thats due to the spot alignment issues or resources being used for conus instead of spots. I assume it's a little bit of both. I suspect that if they wanted to they could come close to filling the entire ka lo band with just conus transponders but obviously wouldn't have the power or bandwidth left to do any spots.

2) not so much combined as reused. Eg you can have different content broadcasting on transponder 24 to LA, Seatle, Pheniox, Boston, Miami and New York to cover the locals at all 6 different locations using only 1 transponder frequency. It's like the difference between a standard lightbulb and a spotlight. Combine repeating the same transponder even more times across the country and multiply that by 4 or 6 different transponders and you can run lots of spots and use lots of capacity on the sat while using less broadcast bandwidth than conus transponders would use. There are limits here based on the sizes of the spots, how they can aim them etc since you can't have overlaps of the same frequency but you can increase your effective total bandwidth by localizing it with spots and then repeating it. It's critical for effectively delivering local channels via sat systems. DirecTV already uses spots on both 101 and 119 to deliver many more SD locals than would be possible if they used the transponders as conus.


----------



## HoTat2

evan_s said:


> ...2) not so much combined as reused. Eg you can have different content broadcasting on transponder 24 to LA, Seatle, Pheniox, Boston, Miami and New York to cover the locals at all 6 different locations using only 1 transponder frequency. It's like the difference between a standard lightbulb and a spotlight. Combine repeating the same transponder even more times across the country and multiply that by 4 or 6 different transponders and you can run lots of spots and use lots of capacity on the sat while using less broadcast bandwidth than conus transponders would use. There are limits here based on the sizes of the spots, how they can aim them etc since you can't have overlaps of the same frequency but you can increase your effective total bandwidth by localizing it with spots and then repeating it. It's critical for effectively delivering local channels via sat systems. DirecTV already uses spots on both 101 and 119 to deliver many more SD locals than would be possible if they used the transponders as conus.


Thanks evan_s;

I've actually understood this spotbeam analogy for quite some time. What I wanted to make sure of though, under my point 2 earlier. Was that unlike the CONUS beam frequencies, you can have the two satellites D11 and 12 at the same position operate on the same 4-6 (based on your example) spotbeam downlink frequencies. Yet not mutually interfere with one another due to their being consigned to different spotbeams?


----------



## evan_s

HoTat2 said:


> Thanks evan_s;
> 
> I've actually understood this spotbeam analogy for quite some time. What I wanted to make sure of though, under my point 2 earlier. Was that unlike the CONUS beam frequencies, you can have the two satellites D11 and 12 at the same position operate on the same 4-6 (based on your example) spotbeam downlink frequencies. Yet not mutually interfere with one another due to their being consigned to different spotbeams?


Yes spot beams can be from the same or different sats. There isn't any interference between the sats for the same reason there isn't any interference between spots from the same sat. They aren't aimed at the same spot.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Tom and Evan, thanks for the info.

One last question, but if every channel went HD (I know thats still a ways off) can D* do MPEG4 at 101 if they needed to?

Still amazed at how all this stuff works, especially the spotbeams.

Thanks again.


----------



## Christopher Gould

theratpatrol said:


> Tom and Evan, thanks for the info.
> 
> One last question, but if every channel went HD (I know thats still a ways off) can D* do MPEG4 at 101 if they needed to?
> 
> Still amazed at how all this stuff works, especially the spotbeams.
> 
> Thanks again.


yes the satellites don't care what mpeg they get


----------



## Tom Robertson

A couple of considerations:
Traditional transponders with a amplifier(s) feeding into a potter's horn can't jump between Ka-lo and Ka-hi that I know of. They are tuned pretty closely within the band for maximal gain. So the transponders on D10/D11/D12 will stay in their band.

S1/S2 can adjust the bandwidth of their spot beams tremendously.

Ultimately, it's is very difficult to tell how much real bandwidth DIRECTV is using of each 500MHz block. Simply multiplying the number of transponder frequencies that appear to be in use by their bandwidth isn't the full story, especially when it comes to the Spaceways.

And how much doubling up could DIRECTV do on spotbeam hopping. Say they use 10 frequencies today for 40 spots. Do they really _need_ 10 frequencies or are they using that to fully claim the 500MHz block for now. What if they only really needed 4 frequencies to geographically hop the spots. Then freeing up 6 for Nationals us. (And how much does the FCC really care about that? Maybe only when DIRECTV starts to ask for BSS blocks...)

So where will D12 go? I'm guessing next to D10 and S1 since we're alternating. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

theratpatrol said:


> Tom and Evan, thanks for the info.
> 
> One last question, but if every channel went HD (I know thats still a ways off) can D* do MPEG4 at 101 if they needed to?
> 
> Still amazed at how all this stuff works, especially the spotbeams.
> 
> Thanks again.


Yes. They've already done that at 101° with LA DNS apparently.

But... 
with 45M receivers to replace, you won't see all MPEG4 at 101° for a long time (in satellite terms.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## evan_s

theratpatrol said:


> Tom and Evan, thanks for the info.
> 
> One last question, but if every channel went HD (I know thats still a ways off) can D* do MPEG4 at 101 if they needed to?
> 
> Still amazed at how all this stuff works, especially the spotbeams.
> 
> Thanks again.


Yeah they could and have done that. The sats are actually fairly simple. They take an input signal, amplify it and send it back down. They don't do any real processing on the signal passing through them. Thats part of the reason why they need to do the backhauling to their uplink facilities instead of having the sats combine the signals from different sources together.

I went with d12 parking with d11 at 99 since I didn't know how the spot beam alignment issues for D10 might effect the ability to mix the spots with another sat. Either way the principle is the same.

I wonder when we will see a d14? sat configured for ka hi transmission to go up there with space 1 or 2.


----------



## Christopher Gould

Tom Robertson said:


> A couple of considerations:
> Traditional transponders with a amplifier(s) feeding into a potter's horn can't jump between Ka-lo and Ka-hi that I know of. They are tuned pretty closely within the band for maximal gain. So the transponders on D10/D11/D12 will stay in their band.
> 
> S1/S2 can adjust the bandwidth of their spot beams tremendously.
> 
> Ultimately, it's is very difficult to tell how much real bandwidth DIRECTV is using of each 500MHz block. Simply multiplying the number of transponder frequencies that appear to be in use by their bandwidth isn't the full story, especially when it comes to the Spaceways.
> 
> And how much doubling up could DIRECTV do on spotbeam hopping. Say they use 10 frequencies today for 40 spots. Do they really _need_ 10 frequencies or are they using that to fully claim the 500MHz block for now. What if they only really needed 4 frequencies to geographically hop the spots. Then freeing up 6 for Nationals us. (And how much does the FCC really care about that? Maybe only when DIRECTV starts to ask for BSS blocks...)
> 
> So where will D12 go? I'm guessing next to D10 and S1 since we're alternating.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


also are they using all there geographical uplinks? dosn't this increase there number of spots and decreasing the number of frequenies?


----------



## doctor j

Christopher Gould said:


> also are they using all there geographical uplinks? dosn't this increase there number of spots and decreasing the number of frequenies?


Maybe Tom can help with this.
I can wrap my mind around the spot beam issues but it is the uplinks that make my head spin.
I believe the spaceways use 6 uplink centers. I think it may actually be the uplinks that limit the # of spots per transponder. More sats per position helps. Maybe the backhauls and sat to sat transfers has something to do with this.

For example I've read Directv7S (119) has 4 spots and replicates them 10 times. ie 40 transponders worth of data.

If the spaceways could do 100 spots/ transponder (a # just out of the sky) what is the limiting factor on getting data to the sat to redistribute 100 ways.

Am I confusing myself??!!

Doctor j


----------



## evan_s

One factor is always going to be power. Receiving a signal, amplifying and retransmitting it requires power. These sats rely on Solar power for running the electronics so there ends up being a limit on how much they can do.

Uplink capacity can be a factor too. Have to get the signal up to the sat in the first place. Having multiple uplink facilities allows you to reuse uplink frequencies just like you reuse downlink frequencies with spots. For a DBS sat like Directv7s at 119 it has 1 500mhz uplink frequency allocation. For the KA allocation you actually have 3 uplink frequency assignments for the 2 downlink frequency assignments which does give you a little more bandwidth to play with. 

For the spaceways in particular I'm sure there are also limits on how many spots it can generate. The larger area the spot needs to cover the more of the 1500 elements of the phased array it will need to use. It might be able to do several hundred spots but if they are so small they don't cover the dma then they don't do any good. In spots large enough to cover a dma it may only be able to do 50 instead.

There may be some limits on which uplink frequencies can be converted to which downlink transponder frequencies because it does seem to be a pretty simple frequency conversion which would necessitate more uplink facilities to get more spots repeated on the same transponder frequency but thats past my level of knowledge and Tom would have to chime in on that.


----------



## Ernie

doctor j said:


> Maybe Tom can help with this.
> I can wrap my mind around the spot beam issues but it is the uplinks that make my head spin.
> I believe the spaceways use 6 uplink centers. I think it may actually be the uplinks that limit the # of spots per transponder. More sats per position helps. Maybe the backhauls and sat to sat transfers has something to do with this.
> 
> For example I've read Directv7S (119) has 4 spots and replicates them 10 times. ie 40 transponders worth of data.
> 
> If the spaceways could do 100 spots/ transponder (a # just out of the sky) what is the limiting factor on getting data to the sat to redistribute 100 ways.
> 
> Am I confusing myself??!!
> 
> Doctor j


D11 uses uplink spots on 6 uplink centers. They are assigned 500Mhz for the uplink which they can use 6 times over (for a total of 3Ghz of input). On the output side, the 14 conus downlinks use about 300Mhz of the assigned 500Mhz. The remaining 200Mhz is reused by the 49 spot beams. So taking the remaining uplink capacity (3000 - 300) divided by 49 gives 55Mhz of uplink capacity for each spotbeam. Since each spotbeam gets 40Mhz (36Mhz TP bandwidth + 4Mhz of guardband) to work with, it looks like there is fairly good balance between uplink capacity and downlink capacity. (Considering that you would have to have the uplink centers perfectly balanced for the slight uplink inbalance to be a problem.)

(BTW, I'm willing the entertain the notion that I'm way off in my analysis. So don't be shy about letting me know)

Ernie


----------



## Tom Robertson

There are several mind blowing ways to work thru this. This is really rocket surgery so you all are asking exactly the right questions. 

From what I can tell (in other words, doin' some edumacated guessin' here), a big dish on the ground can accurately hit a dish 22,000 miles away without interfering with another receiving dish a few feet away on the same satellite... (Helps that they originate from different spots on the ground, of course.)

So I'm thinking they can share multiple hops for uplinks just like they can share downlinks.

Now, "what's really going to bake your noodle" is this concept:
What if they hop the uplink frequencies for nationals as well? (I'll say it for you, OUCH my head hurts.) 

Lets say TP 1 down is normally national and that TP 20 is a hopping spotbeam down. And say DIRECTV can hit a satellite from 6 locations independently. (Don't know that, just guessing for a moment.) So what if TP 1 uplink from LA is a national feed coming right back down as TP 1 national. 

(Are you ready for it...) What if TP 1 from the other 5 uplink centers were then routed back down as spotbeams on TP 20 down. So if they had 6 TP 20 up, combining with 5 TP 1 up all coming back down as TP 20 spots--that would be 11 spots on one downlink transponder frequency from a limit of 6 up.

So the big question is "how many hopping uplink 'spots' can DIRECTV actually use simultaneously?" And I do not know--yet. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Tom Robertson said:


> There are several mind blowing ways to work thru this. This is really rocket surgery so you all are asking exactly the right questions.
> 
> From what I can tell (in other words, doin' some edumacated guessin' here), a big dish on the ground can accurately hit a dish 22,000 miles away without interfering with another receiving dish a few feet away on the same satellite... (Helps that they originate from different spots on the ground, of course.)
> 
> So I'm thinking they can share multiple hops for uplinks just like they can share downlinks.
> 
> Now, "what's really going to bake your noodle" is this concept:
> What if they hop the uplink frequencies for nationals as well? (I'll say it for you, OUCH my head hurts.)
> 
> Lets say TP 1 down is normally national and that TP 20 is a hopping spotbeam down. And say DIRECTV can hit a satellite from 6 locations independently. (Don't know that, just guessing for a moment.) So what if TP 1 uplink from LA is a national feed coming right back down as TP 1 national.
> 
> (Are you ready for it...) What if TP 1 from the other 5 uplink centers were then routed back down as spotbeams on TP 20 down. So if they had 6 TP 20 up, combining with 5 TP 1 up all coming back down as TP 20 spots--that would be 11 spots on one downlink transponder frequency from a limit of 6 up.
> 
> So the big question is "how many hopping uplink 'spots' can DIRECTV actually use simultaneously?" And I do not know--yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Oh Tom my head hurts now.:scratchin

:grin:


----------



## kw2957

theratpatrol said:


> Oh Tom my head hurts now.:scratchin
> 
> :grin:


I think that's an understatement! :lol:


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, there are 5 guesses as to which slot. :lol:
> 
> It will not go in 110 or 119.
> 
> It will almost certainly not go in 101.
> 
> If DIRECTV keeps alternating, 103?
> 
> DIRECTV tells me they have lots of bandwidth available. I take that to mean if all the channels go HD, DIRECTV will be ready. It will be interesting to see who will be the last SD channel standing. I suspect we will see waves of SD channel conversions, and DIRECTV is preparing for them.
> 
> As for satellites in each slot, 101 has (or had) at least 6 that I'm aware of. (Not all are DIRECTV.) The real question is how many satellites will it take to completely fill the allocated bandwidth.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom, what are the odds of Directv sending techs out to each Customer and changing out the LNB so that the new config has KA KU for 99, 101, and 103 and then parking D12 at 101?
I can see it as a possibility, and there ever was a slow season, it would keep the installers busy. Consider also,, there are KA 'sponders on the current 101 and an LNB change over would open them up to use.


----------



## curt8403

bjlc said:


> well if the satellite is already completed, why are they waiting a year to launch..
> 
> Get it up there now.. Call the Astronaut Farmer.. I am sure that some guy, who was preparing for the Millennium explosion has some sort of launching device in his back yard. We have guys around here that have CB's that are stronger then the radio stations.. I am sure some one can throw that thing up there sooner then a year.
> 
> Some kid working on his high school science project.
> 
> Get it up there. the new satellite is almost full. and it hasn't even been turned on yet..





LameLefty said:


> That's wrong on just so many levels.


I agree. The Astronaut Farmer is fiction, and in the story (Movie) he nearly killed himself. Do we want to risk a very expensive satellite on technology that is more likely to destroy it than to launch it. Even Nasa has had some horrible failures. Remember Apollo 1. I say leave it to a pro, not some backyard flyboy. LameLefty, on the other hand, and some buddies, just might be able to pull it off.


----------



## evan_s

curt8403 said:


> Tom, what are the odds of Directv sending techs out to each Customer and changing out the LNB so that the new config has KA KU for 99, 101, and 103 and then parking D12 at 101?
> I can see it as a possibility, and there ever was a slow season, it would keep the installers busy. Consider also,, there are KA 'sponders on the current 101 and an LNB change over would open them up to use.


101 already has 2 ka sats d8 and d9 at it that are being used for backhauling. Combine that with the cost of an lnb swap and I'd say slim to none and slim just left the building.


----------



## Tom Robertson

curt8403 said:


> Tom, what are the odds of Directv sending techs out to each Customer and changing out the LNB so that the new config has KA KU for 99, 101, and 103 and then parking D12 at 101?
> I can see it as a possibility, and there ever was a slow season, it would keep the installers busy. Consider also,, there are KA 'sponders on the current 101 and an LNB change over would open them up to use.


Can DIRECTV do that? Yes, of course they can. 

Will they? Well... Yes, someday. But for just Ka on 101? Perhaps not. Maybe as a combined Ka/BSS upgrade someday.

So likelihood of your scenario of doing this specifically for D12 at 101 are very low.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> A couple of considerations:
> Traditional transponders with a amplifier(s) feeding into a potter's horn can't jump between Ka-lo and Ka-hi that I know of. They are tuned pretty closely within the band for maximal gain. So the transponders on D10/D11/D12 will stay in their band.
> 
> S1/S2 can adjust the bandwidth of their spot beams tremendously.
> 
> Ultimately, it's is very difficult to tell how much real bandwidth DIRECTV is using of each 500MHz block. Simply multiplying the number of transponder frequencies that appear to be in use by their bandwidth isn't the full story, especially when it comes to the Spaceways.
> 
> And how much doubling up could DIRECTV do on spotbeam hopping. Say they use 10 frequencies today for 40 spots. Do they really _need_ 10 frequencies or are they using that to fully claim the 500MHz block for now. What if they only really needed 4 frequencies to geographically hop the spots. Then freeing up 6 for Nationals us. (And how much does the FCC really care about that? Maybe only when DIRECTV starts to ask for BSS blocks...)
> 
> So where will D12 go? I'm guessing next to D10 and S1 since we're alternating.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


don't S1 and S2 have Sat to sat communication ability? if So, I can see a signal being sent from 103 to 99 and the reverse. Not usefull, but I can see it, and it makes my eyes sore.


----------



## Ernie

Tom Robertson said:


> There are several mind blowing ways to work thru this. This is really rocket surgery so you all are asking exactly the right questions.
> 
> From what I can tell (in other words, doin' some edumacated guessin' here), a big dish on the ground can accurately hit a dish 22,000 miles away without interfering with another receiving dish a few feet away on the same satellite... (Helps that they originate from different spots on the ground, of course.)
> 
> So I'm thinking they can share multiple hops for uplinks just like they can share downlinks.
> 
> Now, "what's really going to bake your noodle" is this concept:
> What if they hop the uplink frequencies for nationals as well? (I'll say it for you, OUCH my head hurts.)
> 
> Lets say TP 1 down is normally national and that TP 20 is a hopping spotbeam down. And say DIRECTV can hit a satellite from 6 locations independently. (Don't know that, just guessing for a moment.) So what if TP 1 uplink from LA is a national feed coming right back down as TP 1 national.
> 
> (Are you ready for it...) What if TP 1 from the other 5 uplink centers were then routed back down as spotbeams on TP 20 down. So if they had 6 TP 20 up, combining with 5 TP 1 up all coming back down as TP 20 spots--that would be 11 spots on one downlink transponder frequency from a limit of 6 up.
> 
> So the big question is "how many hopping uplink 'spots' can DIRECTV actually use simultaneously?" And I do not know--yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Right, antennas are symmetrical with respect to transmitting and receiving. So a spotbeam the could transmit to a small spot on the earth will only receive from that same spot. According to the FCC filings, D10 and D11 (and presumably D12) are set up with 6 uplink spot beams. To quote:


> All national programming material will be distributed from the DIRECTV broadcast center in Los Angeles, CA, whereas local programming material will be collected at six strategically located collection sites (including the DIRECTV Los Angeles, CA and Castle Rock, CO broadcast centers ("LABC" and "CRBC," respectively)) and distributed from broadcast facilities at these six sites.


Ernie


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ernie said:


> Right, antennas are symmetrical with respect to transmitting and receiving. So a spotbeam the could transmit to a small spot on the earth will only receive from that same spot. According to the FCC filings, D10 and D11 (and presumably D12) are set up with 6 uplink spot beams. To quote:
> 
> Ernie


Isn't that presuming they use the same antennae for sending and receiving. I'm not certain that is the case. But I need to more thoroughly review the FCC files as you've pointed out. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

curt8403 said:


> don't S1 and S2 have Sat to sat communication ability? if So, I can see a signal being sent from 103 to 99 and the reverse. Not usefull, but I can see it, and it makes my eyes sore.


Originally all three spaceways: S1, S2, and S3 were designed with in space communications in mind. (Would have been an awesome network.)

When S1 and S2 went to DIRECTV that capability was removed and the inter-satellite frequency allocations were returned to the FCC. (I'm pretty certain S3 also had all of that capability removed as well.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jhon69

Tom Robertson said:


> Originally all three spaceways: S1, S2, and S3 were designed with in space communications in mind. (Would have been an awesome network.)
> 
> When S1 and S2 went to DIRECTV that capability was removed and the inter-satellite frequency allocations were returned to the FCC. (I'm pretty certain S3 also had all of that capability removed as well.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Maybe they disabled that after seeing"Independence Day"?.:eek2:


----------



## dem

curt8403 said:


> Do we want to risk a very expensive satellite on technology that is more likely to destroy it than to launch it. Even Nasa has had some horrible failures. Remember Apollo 1.


Apollo 1, of course, was a problem with the payload, not the launch system. The Saturn IB and Saturn V never killed anybody.


----------



## curt8403

dem said:


> Apollo 1, of course, was a problem with the payload, not the launch system. The Saturn IB and Saturn V never killed anybody.


Ok. maybe I should have said Remember Discovery, or Challenger. Point is that everyone has problems, but I would rather go with someone who has been doing it a while.

Just look at Falcon 1 (Spacex)


----------



## Ernie

Tom Robertson said:


> Isn't that presuming they use the same antennae for sending and receiving. I'm not certain that is the case. But I need to more thoroughly review the FCC files as you've pointed out.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


No. Just imagine a spotbeam that pointed at, say, Castle Rock, Co. You could use that as a transmitting antenna to distribute signals in a small area along the front range of the Rockies. But, you can also use that same antenna as a receive antenna and it would only receive uplink transmissions from that small area (on the same frequency and polarization as say from the LA uplink center).

Actually, it is possible to use a microwave device called a "circulator" to separate the signals from a single feedhorn for transmitting and receiving. However, that level of design is not in the FCC application, nor is there any mention using a single spot for both (it talks about downlink and uplink spots separately). So, I would assume that is the case. A circulator might work fine in this application (Google "microwave circulator" for more info), or the ferrite material used in them is too delicate to survive a launch or too big and heavy. So it is still possible even though there is no mention of it. I'm sure there is a definitive Boeing document on the subject. So we'll have to wait until someone spills the beans.

Ernie


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ernie, my point was not "is it possible" but rather "does DIRECTV actually DO that on the satellite" 

That said, thanks for the info! I will definitely look that up, it sounds very cool and interesting. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Some very interesting reading concerning D11 & BSS testing ...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035950​


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> Some very interesting reading concerning D11 & BSS testing ...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035950​


Very interesting indeed... Now who wants to bet on D12 having another, yet differently designed and mounted bss testing equipment and that they will ask to test it in a different location, or maybe even multiple locations, including ones where they have filed for licenses to actually operate bss sats...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto, that is awesome!

I note the high tech blocking device 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> Some very interesting reading concerning D11 & BSS testing ...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035950​


Could someone explain, in laymans terms, what all this means?

Thanks


----------



## LameLefty

theratpatrol said:


> Could someone explain, in laymans terms, what all this means?
> 
> Thanks


In short, it means don't expect BSS-compatible equipment from Directv anytime soon. There has to be a LOT more testing before the FCC will even consider approving BSS-based operational satellites.


----------



## jefbal99

theratpatrol said:


> Could someone explain, in laymans terms, what all this means?
> 
> Thanks


I'll take a stab...

The BSS testing didn't cause any interference, but due to some unforeseen issues, they don't feel the results are very reliable


----------



## Sixto

Another related filing ... "DIRECTV, Inc. ("DIRECTV") hereby opposes the Petition for Reconsideration of the BSS R&O1 filed by Telesat Canada ("Telesat") in this proceeding ..."http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035983​


----------



## bobnielsen

Sixto said:


> Another related filing ... "DIRECTV, Inc. ("DIRECTV") hereby opposes the Petition for Reconsideration of the BSS R&O1 filed by Telesat Canada ("Telesat") in this proceeding ..."http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520035983​


I have a difficult-enough time following the technical issues. When the lawyers start in, I get hopelessly lost


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> I have a difficult-enough time following the technical issues. When the lawyers start in, I get hopelessly lost


Yep, I'll eventually summarize ... figured would post the details since there's alot of debate going on ...


----------



## merchione

Sixto said:


> Yep, I'll eventually summarize ... figured would post the details since there's alot of debate going on ...


Do you think that this may affect the launch of D12 in any way?


----------



## woj027

Sixto, Although most of the documents were using terms I only thought were spoken on Star Trek, I did learn something, altough I'm not sure what.

Thanks for taking the time to find them, and post them. It's great coming to this site and learning about all of this.


----------



## Sixto

merchione said:


> Do you think that this may affect the launch of D12 in any way?


Anything is possible. Maybe they push for sooner to do more BSS testing. Certainly opens the possibility that they may want to do different BSS testing with D12. Lots of possibilities ...


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Anything is possible. Maybe they push for sooner to do more BSS testing. Certainly opens the possibility that they may want to do different BSS testing with D12. Lots of possibilities ...


Someone needs to dig into Directv's SEC filings to see if any contracts or options exist regarding launch. So far, I have seen nothing on any launch provider's calendar's regarding D12.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Someone needs to dig into Directv's SEC filings to see if any contracts or options exist regarding launch. So far, I have seen nothing on any launch provider's calendar's regarding D12.


Been looking ... 

Nothing yet ...


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Been looking ...
> 
> Nothing yet ...


Me too. This is what Boeing still says (publicly), as of last week:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/launch_sched.html

Interestingly, a lot of the sites I check for launch schedules show a LOT of Proton M/Briz M launches through next year. That's the launcher that put up D10. However, they've had a couple of embarrassing failures since. Guess they're confident they've fixed the issue given their booked launches. I also see a lot of Ariane 5 bookings. Not too many announcements about Sea-Launch, however, and their site doesn't list future launches (at least, I can't find their announced launch calendar).


----------



## Sixto

"LONG BEACH, Calif., Nov. 15, 2005 -- Sea Launch has signed a firm launch contract with DIRECTV, for a mission scheduled in early 2007. The contract* includes an option for an additional launch*."

The launch was D11. This "option" is ? ... http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051115s.html​


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> "LONG BEACH, Calif., Nov. 15, 2005 -- Sea Launch has signed a firm launch contract with DIRECTV, for a mission scheduled in early 2007. The contract* includes an option for an additional launch*."
> 
> The launch was D11. This "option" is ? ... http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2005/q4/nr_051115s.html​


Ah, well aren't you clever.  Congrats on digging that up.

Some of my more obscure sources (not too sure of reliability) show only two confirmed 2009 launches for Sea-Launch, plus a late-'09 "TBD" for the XM 5 sat. However, a couple of things play into all this. Of course, Sea-Launch can do a launch about once every two months, but to my knowledge, they've never sustained that pace for an entire year. Also, there is talk that the Sea-Launch _Commander_ (command vessel) is due for a several-month overhaul. I don't know if that makes sense, however, as it seems to me they'd have used the downtime following their incident 18 months ago to take care of that task too. And of course, the other factor is the recently-approved XM-Sirius merger, which may or may not affect prior plans for satellites.


----------



## Ernie

LameLefty said:


> In short, it means don't expect BSS-compatible equipment from Directv anytime soon. There has to be a LOT more testing before the FCC will even consider approving BSS-based operational satellites.


My take on the submission is more along the line of: Maybe you need to change the rules before licensing anything. The issue of sat-to-sat interference isn't resolved by this filing. This filing does indicate that earth station-to-subscriber interference is likely at the uplinks. The fact that a D* uplink could interfere with an E* subscriber (or at least reduce their rain-fade margin) might be a little unsettling to them.

Actually, the rain-fade issue made me think of something they forgot to test (or couldn't because its the dry season in California and T-storms don't operate on a schedule in the Rockies). The whole ground test is based on line-of-sight interference from the earthstation. However, during a rainstorm there should be considerable backscatter to further reduce margins. This could be significant over a wider area than what they were testing.

If there is a problem, then what do you do about. It has to work for all 17Ghz uplinks and downlinks. If it turns out that here is a real problem on the sat end because the existing antennas are a problem, will D* shut down older birds like D8 before their useful life ends? (Or is that a problem, since the BSS birds might not be launched before D8s end of life anyway.) What would they do about an incumbent with a 17Ghz uplink in one of the new BSS slots?

Ernie


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> Sixto, that is awesome!
> 
> I note the high tech blocking device
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


simular device can be made from Tin Foil and said blocking device can be fitted to the head. Said to prevent Alien Mind Control attempts. :lol:


----------



## Ernie

curt8403 said:


> simular device can be made from Tin Foil and said blocking device can be fitted to the head. Said to prevent Alien Mind Control attempts. :lol:


That why in the movies, the arrival of the UFO is preceded by a strong wind to blow away any Tin Foil shields. Come to think of it , that's what the Chinook winds in Castle Rock will do to any flimsy dish shields.

Ernie


----------



## smiddy

129 posts...I think this thread will have some maturing to do.  I'll see if I can dig up some more information on D12 from my co-workers.


----------



## curt8403

smiddy said:


> 129 posts...I think this thread will have some maturing to do.  I'll see if I can dig up some more information on D12 from my co-workers.


good idea, I looked, boeing has nothing new on D12 yet


----------



## inkahauts

So do we expect the next testing of BSS on D12, or do you think they might do some more testing with the BSS on D11, as well... Cause as far as we know, its still hooked up to the sat, right?


----------



## smiddy

inkahauts said:


> So do we expect the next testing of BSS on D12, or do you think they might do some more testing with the BSS on D11, as well... Cause as far as we know, its still hooked up to the sat, right?


For all we know, D10 has BSS too, it was just never tested.


----------



## curt8403

inkahauts said:


> So do we expect the next testing of BSS on D12, or do you think they might do some more testing with the BSS on D11, as well... Cause as far as we know, its still hooked up to the sat, right?


the BSS appears to have been an interference test. I would expect no more tests for 2 - 3 years


----------



## smiddy

According to current FCC filings nothing about BSS testing is scheduled for D12, but that doesn't mean it can't be filed prior to launch...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> According to current FCC filings nothing about BSS testing is scheduled for D12, but that doesn't mean it can't be filed prior to launch...


...and it wouldn't be the first time a pre-launch spec change was done.


----------



## dreadlk

Just a prediction on my part, I dont think D12 will be used for USA channels but instead for spanish and other ethnic HD channels. I think they will be putting one over on Dishnnetwork by cutting into there superior ethnic channel lineup by offering HD versions of those popular channels. This would mean most existing HD customers dont need a hardware change, and it would bring in a bunch of new people who will shell out money for a dish already fitted with a different LNB config.


----------



## curt8403

dreadlk said:


> Just a prediction on my part, I dont think D12 will be used for USA channels but instead for spanish and other ethnic HD channels. I think they will be putting one over on Dishnnetwork by cutting into there superior ethnic channel lineup by offering HD versions of those popular channels. This would mean most existing HD customers dont need a hardware change, and it would bring in a bunch of new people who will shell out money for a dish already fitted with a different LNB config.


MOST ethnic channels do hot have an HD counterpart


----------



## tkrandall

Is there anough Ka bandwidth at 99w or 103w for D12 to be effectivly used at either location? Won't S1, S2, D10 and D11 pretty much have the licensed bandwidth at those two slots fully allocated among conus and spot beams??


----------



## Tom Robertson

dreadlk said:


> Just a prediction on my part, I dont think D12 will be used for USA channels but instead for spanish and other ethnic HD channels. I think they will be putting one over on Dishnnetwork by cutting into there superior ethnic channel lineup by offering HD versions of those popular channels. This would mean most existing HD customers dont need a hardware change, and it would bring in a bunch of new people who will shell out money for a dish already fitted with a different LNB config.


I don't think either the international HD channels nor the USA customers are ready for that kind of a move. D12 will be more traditional national HD and perhaps redundancy.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## evan_s

tkrandall said:


> Is there anough Ka bandwidth at 99w or 103w for D12 to be effectivly used at either location? Won't S1, S2, D10 and D11 pretty much have the licesnsed bandwidth at those two slots fully allocated among conus and spot beams??


There is plenty of bandwidth left there. Keep in mind as mentioned earlier there are 2 500mhz allocations at each slot so currently each sat has a full allocation all to it's self. If you want a more detailed answer check the posts from tom and I earlier in the thread.


----------



## tkrandall

I guess I had the impression that each satellite is fully capable of using up the 500mhz. So what do they do with a third one in the same slot?


----------



## Tom Robertson

tkrandall said:


> I guess I had the impression that each satellite is fully capable of using up the 500mhz. So what do they do with a third one in the same slot?


Yes, each can fully use all the frequency range but how effectively? With hopping spotbeams, sharing just a few frequencies and fewer than in use today, more frequency slots are available to DIRECTV. 

As to how many, that is the really tough question. The real answer lies in how many transponder frequencies does DIRECTV need to serve without interference problems.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## evan_s

tkrandall said:


> I guess I had the impression that each satellite is fully capable of using up the 500mhz. So what do they do with a third one in the same slot?


Generally speaking no. This is especially true with spot beams that can be repeated across the US to reuse the same transponders several times. For example there are 4 sats at 101 to provide direcTV's content and at 119 they host 40 different spot beams using only a couple transponders.


----------



## tkrandall

If it would lead to more effective use of spotbeams (higher density / re-use of each channel), then that would make a lot of sense.


----------



## Ernie

tkrandall said:


> I guess I had the impression that each satellite is fully capable of using up the 500mhz. So what do they do with a third one in the same slot?


Its not clear that the Spaceways are capable of fully utilizing the 500Mhz. A possible plan would be to migrate Spaceway 1 and 2 into the same slot (so they would only have 250 Mhz apiece to service), and put (the more capable) D12 in the vacated slot.

Ernie


----------



## tkrandall

I thought the Spaceways were pretty versatle birds, especially with their spot beam capabilites due to their phased array antennas.


----------



## evan_s

Ernie said:


> Its not clear that the Spaceways are capable of fully utilizing the 500Mhz. A possible plan would be to migrate Spaceway 1 and 2 into the same slot (so they would only have 250 Mhz apiece to service), and put (the more capable) D12 in the vacated slot.
> 
> Ernie


D12 couldn't be put in place of spaceway 1 or 2 with out a payload change. Spaceway 1 and 2 use KA Hi and D10 D11 and as far as we know D12 are configured for Ka Lo transmission.


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> D12 couldn't be put in place of spaceway 1 or 2 with out a payload change. Spaceway 1 and 2 use KA Hi and D10 D11 and as far as we know D12 are configured for Ka Lo transmission.


Er, so what? Provided Directv has licenses for both parts of the Ka spectrum at each slot (and they do) there should be no issue. BBCs are cheap and with SWMs coming online, the Lo and Hi distinctions doesn't matter that much to end consumers.


----------



## evan_s

My point was the sat would need to be reconfigured before it could be used that way. Once we get the fcc launch filing we should know for sure what downlink frequencies it's configured for.


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> My point was the sat would need to be reconfigured before it could be used that way. Once we get the fcc launch filing we should know for sure what downlink frequencies it's configured for.


Yep, nothing new with the usual Friday Filing:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1873A1.pdf

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-284435A1.pdf​Intelsat getting a bird ...


----------



## Ernie

tkrandall said:


> I thought the Spaceways were pretty versatle birds, especially with their spot beam capabilites due to their phased array antennas.


Versatile in terms of being able to change the spot location and size dynamically. Not so versatile in the number of spots. The phased array has 1500 elements which limits (probably because of sidelobe interference) the number of spots to 24. Since the location of the DMAs that D* wants to service is known, a satellite like D11 with a larger number (49) of fixed spots has the advantage.

Ernie


----------



## Ernie

evan_s said:


> D12 couldn't be put in place of spaceway 1 or 2 with out a payload change. Spaceway 1 and 2 use KA Hi and D10 D11 and as far as we know D12 are configured for Ka Lo transmission.


Given the modular design of the Boeing 702, that shouldn't be that big of a deal. Since they have had this in mind for a while, Boeing probably started on this a year ago.

Ernie


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> My point was the sat would need to be reconfigured before it could be used that way. Once we get the fcc launch filing we should know for sure what downlink frequencies it's configured for.


EDIT: Nevermind, I see what you're saying. The extent of any necessary change may be anything from minimal to entire, depending on what the "final" plan is to use the spectrum most efficiently.


----------



## Sixto

Nothing new with the usual Friday FCC Release:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1912A1.pdf​


----------



## LameLefty

Just an FYI: ILS is back on the "successful" side of the business with last evening's launch of the Immarsat-4 F3 launch on a Proton M/Briz M launch vehicle (same vehicle that launched D10 in summer 2007). They are pretty booked up for the next year or two so it's unlikely they could handle D12, but as we still do not know for certain which launch service provider is booked, it's good to know. It also gives Directv confidence in booking any future launches beyond D12 at some point several years from now.


----------



## Sixto

Nothing new with the usual Friday FCC Release:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1954A1.pdf

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-284768A1.pdf​Interesting Echostar 11 stuff but nothing new with DirecTV ...


----------



## Sixto

Some new news ... not sure what it means yet ... from today's FCC filings ...

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) requests to amend its pending application for authority to construct, launch, and operate a 17/24 GHz
Broadcasting-Satellite Service (BSS) space station (Call Sign S2242) at the 107º W.L. orbital location. DIRECTV proposes to substitute Pegasus
Development DBS Corporation (Pegasus) as the applicant, and to conform the application to the technical parameters submitted by Pegasus for its
proposed space station (Call Sign: S2699) in the same spectrum at the same orbital location. In the 17/24 GHz Report and Order, the
Commission indicated that for the then pending applications where more than one applicant filed for an Appendix F location or its associated
offsets, it would "divide the available spectrum equally among the applicants pursuant to rule 25.158(d)." FCC 07-76, at para. 143. As part of its
amendment, DIRECTV requests the Commission to "treat Pegasus as if it had filed two of the three pending applications for 17/24 GHz BSS band
frequencies at 107º W.L. for purposes of division of the available bandwidth at that orbit location." DIRECTV has also filed a contingent partial
waiver request of the following rules: 47 C.F.R. §§ 25.158(c) (prohibition on transfer of place in application queue), 25.165 (bond requirement),
and 25.116 (major amendment).

DIRECTV states that this amendment relates to a broader agreement between and among DIRECTV, Intelsat North America LLC and Pegasus
regarding applications at the "nominal 91º W.L., 99º W.L. and 107º W.L. orbital locations."

Today's filings:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-285667A1.pdf

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2157A1.pdf​


----------



## tkrandall

Not sure what that means either. I just hop it does not mean I ever need 107w for DirecTV service. 91 and 99 are fine. 103 is as far west as I can reliably to go. 110w signal is going away fast due to tree growth.


----------



## Sixto

Also, another bit of interesting info concerning satellite regulatory fees ... just released yesterday ...http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520171202​


----------



## Sixto

tkrandall said:


> Not sure what that means either. I just hop it does not mean I ever need 107w for DirecTV service. 91 and 99 are fine. 103 is as far west as I can reliably to go. 110w signal is going away fast due to tree growth.


Seems to me like they're giving the 107 location to Pegasus. Maybe in return for something at 99. Gotta research this ...


----------



## evan_s

Thats what it sounds like to me. Three companies DIRECTV, Intelsat North America LLC and Pegasus all applied for the same orbital slots and the default behavior for the FCC is to grant each one a third of the bandwidth at that slot. Of corse for the companies involved it's much better if they each get one full slot of their own so they basically agreed to trade with each other so they each get a full orbital slot. Since they mention 91º W.L., 99º W.L. and 107º W.L. I'm going to assume Pegasus gets 107, since thats what this submission indicates, DirecTV gets 99, since this would be DirecTVs preferred slot with sats already at this location and Intelsat gets 91 is the way things are heading.


----------



## lwilli201

Sixto, does Pegasus have an application for a spot at 91º W.L. or 99º W.L orbital locations that Directv wants to trade for?


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> Sixto, does Pegasus have an application for a spot at 91º W.L. or 99º W.L orbital locations that Directv wants to trade for?


yep, that's what needs to be figured out ... on it ...


----------



## Doug Brott

OK .. The thread is stuck now .. 12 Months of D-12 discussion .. 

(Probably longer than that, but it wouldn't sound as good )


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> OK .. The thread is stuck now .. 12 Months of D-12 discussion ..
> 
> (Probably longer than that, but it wouldn't sound as good )


Chase did refer to D12 today.

Mentioned the launch in 2009, and stated that all capex will be non-satellite within 12 months, inferring (maybe) that D12 may be up within 12 months.


----------



## evan_s

One other thought. This latest filing is BSS so I don't think that will be D12.Most likely it will end up being D14 (D13 was a replacement for the sat at 110 that was canceled).


----------



## davemayo

Doug Brott said:


> OK .. The thread is stuck now .. 12 Months of D-12 discussion ..
> 
> (Probably longer than that, but it wouldn't sound as good )


Oh no. :eek2:


----------



## houskamp

ARE WE THERE YET??? :lol:


----------



## Sirshagg

I can't wait - we need more HD PPV


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> One other thought. This latest filing is BSS so I don't think that will be D12.Most likely it will end up being D14 (D13 was a replacement for the sat at 110 that was canceled).


Yep, the BSS topic is non-D12. Just included it because no other spot to discuss.

I guess a slight (very slight) chance of some BSS component for D12, maybe another test, but expect full blown BSS later, a few years from now.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> yep, that's what needs to be figured out ... on it ...


Pegasus applied for BSS at 91/101/110: http://www.futron.com/pdf/friends_of_futron_reports/satellite_regulatory_reports/FutronRR2006-05.pdf

101 seems interesting ... trade 107 for 101?


----------



## sportshermit

Can't wait for D12. Will be nice to get some new HD.


----------



## machavez00

Ok, call me lazy for not scrolling through 170+ posts. 
A few questions.
Is it possible that D12 will be used to migrate existing SD only channels to MPEG4? Would this require DirecTV to have all it's IRDs, DVR and non DVR, MPEG4 capable? Is a MPEG4 SD IRD capable of of receiving HD channels and displaying them SD, if the account has HD programming on it?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So when are we going to get Desktop software that features a countdown to the launch of D12?  

Heck...if we could get it for the start of the NFL season.... :lol:


----------



## curt8403

sportshermit said:


> Can't wait for D12. Will be nice to get some new HD.


since D11 is half empty or so, D12  will be an empty tin can just rolling around in space for a while. It will be wonderful to have the room.


----------



## evan_s

machavez00 said:


> Ok, call me lazy for not scrolling through 170+ posts.
> A few questions.
> Is it possible that D12 will be used to migrate existing SD only channels to MPEG4? Would this require DirecTV to have all it's IRDs, DVR and non DVR, MPEG4 capable? Is a MPEG4 SD IRD capable of of receiving HD channels and displaying them SD, if the account has HD programming on it?


It's possible but unlikely that D12 would be used for SD content. What we have heard from DirecTV so far is that it will be used to expand capacity up to 200 national HD channels and to add more HD locals.

They can put up Mpeg4 sd channel when ever they want and actually already do for some locals. This does require that the receivers support mpeg4 to see those channels. Where they have mpeg4 locals they use the r22 for a sd dvr which is really a hr21 with the hd features disabled. The R22 is able to receive hd signals and displaying them in SD. Currently this is only via Download on demand or OTA signals with the am21 but I don't think there is any reason it wouldn't work with HD sat signals. Ii is possible a new box will be designed that is mpeg4 capable but only able to decode SD signals but I don't think it's likely given the long term goals that directv has been publishing.


----------



## Sixto

curt8403 said:


> since D11 is half empty or so, D12 will be an empty tin can just rolling around in space for a while. It will be wonderful to have the room.


At last look, D11 was 90% full (63/70) ... including PPV HD ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1782916&postcount=320​


----------



## sportshermit

curt8403 said:


> since D11 is half empty or so, D12 will be an empty tin can just rolling around in space for a while. It will be wonderful to have the room.


Being in one of the smallest local markets and not even having standard definition locals I have little chance of high definition offerings. Other than the migration of mpeg 2 to mpeg 4 I've seen little or no offerings from D11.


----------



## kevinwmsn

I thought markets that don't have sd, when they do they would do high def and then crop the middle for those markets for SD. They would have to have mpeg4 equipment too.


----------



## inkahauts

sportshermit said:


> Being in one of the smallest local markets and not even having standard definition locals I have little chance of high definition offerings. Other than the migration of mpeg 2 to mpeg 4 I've seen little or no offerings from D11.


Your more likely to get HD than SD at this point... Because if you get HD, it can always be output as SD...


----------



## sportshermit

inkahauts said:


> Your more likely to get HD than SD at this point... Because if you get HD, it can always be output as SD...


This is encouraging. Right now only 1 channel of the 4 networks offers high definition and it's pretty spotty. They forget to flip the switch (or whatever they have to do) and went all of last Saturday's football in standard definition.


----------



## BruceS

If your local OTA broadcasters don't provide HD, then DirecTV won't be able to give you HD locals either.

All they do is send the SD and HD feeds from your local OTA broadcasters over the satellite.


----------



## Sixto

Nothing new yet with D12 ... been continuing to check any FCC filings ...

Here's the latest filing from Friday (10/10/2008) ... re: digital transition education:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520175163​
Always in search of D12 info ...


----------



## leww37334

Just wondering if D12 will be as much of a let down as D11 has been.


----------



## Sixto

leww37334 said:


> Just wondering if D12 will be as much of a let down as D11 has been.


It all depends on one's perspective ... and there's much debate in other threads to discuss ....

D11 provided bandwidth for the 8 HD DNS movement, the 9 MPEG2 legacy HD movement, 9 soon to be 12 new full-time RSN's, 4 new networks in HD, 20+ new PPV HD (some just placeholders), and a boatload of bandwidth for the new NFL Sunday Ticket HD channels.

And there's been a few HD LIL markets going "live" every week ... all on D11.

Yep, it would be nice to have more national HD, but D11 has been busy. Very busy.


----------



## Curtis0620

Sixto said:


> It all depends on one's perspective ... and there's much debate in other threads to discuss ....
> 
> D11 provided bandwidth for the 8 HD DNS movement, the 9 MPEG2 legacy HD movement, 9 soon to be 12 new full-time RSN's, 4 new networks in HD, 20+ new PPV HD (some just placeholders), and a boatload of bandwidth for the new NFL Sunday Ticket HD channels.
> 
> And there's been a few HD LIL markets going "live" every week ... all on D11.
> 
> Yep, it would be nice to have more national HD, but D11 has been busy. Very busy.


2 of those HD-PPV are missing this morning.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

leww37334 said:


> Just wondering if D12 will be as much of a let down as D11 has been.


I respectfully, but totally, disagree that D11 has been any kind of disappointment at all.

It launched without problem, positioned as planned, fired up as planned, and has provided reams of new bandwidth that is being used for both new National HD channels and many more HD LILs to areas that have been craving it for quite some time.

A shared delivery of new National HD and more HD LILS was the mission all along, and has been accomplished.

There will always be debate as to getting more HD content...which is applicable to any HD content provider, DirecTV, Dish, cable, FIOS, etc. DirecTV continues to be ahead of the game on these fronts (for example, Dish has only 60% the same HD LILS DirecTV offers at this time).

I'd like to see more HD National channels too, a few in particular, as much as some other folks, but in the end...the total offering of HD now is very robust.

I can wait a bit longer for "HD Utopia" (with D12). If I was using another service, I'd be a whole lot more "disappointed".

That's what's nice about starting to talk about D12...we're getting much closer to the point where bandwidth will outway HD content provider availability.


----------



## Sixto

Another quiet Friday at the FCC:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2346A1.pdf​
Been quiet for several Friday FCC filings ...


----------



## LarryFlowers

Sixto said:


> Another quiet Friday at the FCC:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2346A1.pdf​ Been quiet for several Friday FCC filings ...


I read the other day that Boeing satellite division is sweating bullits... lack of orders and a large (as in save the day) government sat order still pending.


----------



## LameLefty

LarryFlowers said:


> I read the other day that Boeing satellite division is sweating bullits... lack of orders and a large (as in save the day) government sat order still pending.


That, and they just lost a huge fraud case in court versus a potential customer, and had a $371M award granted against them. 

http://www.satellitetoday.com/st/headlines/25078.html

That said, D12 has got to be basically completed. What we're really waiting to see is action from the FCC pertaining to test and/or operational slots, plus a press release or investor info regarding a firm contract for launch services from SeaLaunch, ILS, Arianespace or ULA.


----------



## Piratefan98

Sixto said:


> Yep, it would be nice to have more national HD, but D11 has been busy. Very busy.


No doubt it has been busy. I just wish more of the "busy" was focused where the March press release indicated it would be.

Jeff


----------



## cartrivision

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I respectfully, but totally, disagree that D11 has been any kind of disappointment at all.
> 
> It launched without problem, positioned as planned, fired up as planned, and has provided reams of new bandwidth that is being used for both new National HD channels and many more HD LILs to areas that have been craving it for quite some time.
> 
> A shared delivery of new National HD and more HD LILS was the mission all along, and has been accomplished.
> 
> There will always be debate as to getting more HD content...which is applicable to any HD content provider, DirecTV, Dish, cable, FIOS, etc. DirecTV continues to be ahead of the game on these fronts (for example, Dish has only 60% the same HD LILS DirecTV offers at this time).
> 
> I'd like to see more HD National channels too, a few in particular, as much as some other folks, but in the end...the total offering of HD now is very robust.
> 
> I can wait a bit longer for "HD Utopia" (with D12). If I was using another service, I'd be a whole lot more "disappointed".
> 
> That's what's nice about starting to talk about D12...we're getting much closer to the point where bandwidth will outway HD content provider availability.


You can disagree all you want, but the general consensus was and continues to be that the added HD content as a result of D11 coming online has been disappointing at best. One small example of the disappointing use of the satellites capacity is that DirecTV still doesn't even provide the HD versions of all the HBO/MAX channels that they currently carry in SD, let alone the dozen or so additional HBO/MAX feeds that are available in HD, but not carried by DirecTV at all.


----------



## Shades228

cartrivision said:


> You can disagree all you want, but the general consensus was and continues to be that the added HD content as a result of D11 coming online has been disappointing at best. One small example of the disappointing use of the satellites capacity is that DirecTV still doesn't even provide the HD versions of all the HBO/MAX channels that they currently carry in SD, let alone the dozen or so additional HBO/MAX feeds that are available in HD, but not carried by DirecTV at all.


Unless you lived in an area without HD locals and now get HD locals. This has been talked about many times. There's 2 primary points that always come up. A: People always want more HD but they don't want to pay more for it. B: HD locals and local conversion seems to be priority 1 for every carrier out there right now because it has a hard deadline. If D* announced 30 new HD channels tomorrow but said your hd access charge was going to double I doubt many people would be happy.


----------



## Sixto

A little bed-time reading as we await some real D12 info:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520180678​Just released this week.


----------



## LarryFlowers

Sixto said:


> A little bed-time reading as we await some real D12 info:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520180678​Just released this week.


Fascinating Re...........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


----------



## Canis Lupus

:lol:

That's why Sixto is here to take care of us 



LarryFlowers said:


> Fascinating Re...........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


----------



## lwilli201

Sixto said:


> A little bed-time reading as we await some real D12 info:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520180678​Just released this week.


The FCC should slap a big fee on NCTA and Verizon for submitting this garbage. It appears that DBS is a very very small fraction of the FCC workload.


----------



## Sixto

DirecTV-12 will be a Proton launch in 2009.

No more details yet. And no links yet to provide.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> DirecTV-12 will be a Proton launch in 2009.
> 
> No more details yet. And no links yet to provide.


Thanks for that. Although we had previously figured out that Directv owns an option for another Sea-Launch flight, I had yet to see it on the Sea-Launch schedule, and they look pretty well booked through the end of next year and into '10.


----------



## cforrest

Sixto said:


> DirecTV-12 will be a Proton launch in 2009.
> 
> No more details yet. And no links yet to provide.


Thanks, I'll be keeping an eye on www.ilslaunch.com for news. Hope there are no issues with Proton launches between now and 2009 when Directv-12 launches.


----------



## Sixto

cforrest said:


> Thanks, I'll be keeping an eye on www.ilslaunch.com for news. Hope there are no issues with Proton launches between now and 2009 when Directv-12 launches.


yep, i might visit that area once in a while ... !


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> yep, i might visit that area once in a while ... !


Curious why they chose that route, since SeaLaunch has been so successful for them to date...


----------



## Richierich

Well they launched Directv 5 & 8 so I guess Directv bids it out to see who is cheapest for that particular launch or can handle their time frame.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Well they launched Directv 5 & 8 so I guess Directv bids it out to see who is cheapest for that particular launch or can handle their time frame.


...both very good points....on the other hand....the last Dish sat got screwed using the same delivery. :eek2:


----------



## Sixto

Also D10 was Proton (ILS).


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Also D10 was Proton (ILS).


In fact, D10 was the last Proton launch before a failure. 

Interestingly, the failure turned out to be caused by the Briz-M upper stage; the new configuration for the new generation of very heave comsats requires a whole series of lengthy burns to get inclination down to zero while at the same time raising the orbit to GSO. Anyone else remember the crazy ground tracks from D10 when it looked like the satellite was doing figure 8's and zig-zags over the globe? Expect another flurry of posts based on "information" from web-based "tracking" sites. 

But in any case, that upper-stage configuration resulted in a thermal stresses on the upper stage and engine because of the long burns required for such massive payloads, resulting in failure. They have since successfully returned to flight and there are several other launches between now and then which should help them gain continued operational and flight confidence in the revised designs since the last failure.


----------



## BNUMM

Sixto said:


> DirecTV-12 will be a Proton launch in 2009.
> 
> No more details yet. And no links yet to provide.


Lyngsat has it listed on their site.


----------



## RAD

It's just nice to know now that D* actually does have a place in line to get D12 launched.


----------



## LameLefty

BNUMM said:


> Lyngsat has it listed on their site.


Probably from this site. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

BNUMM said:


> Lyngsat has it listed on their site.


think we were first ... but where?

launch provider not shown on: http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html


----------



## lwilli201

Great information Sixto. How long before launch does Diretv have to get orbital location authority for D12 or do they already have an approved location. How does that work?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Any word or guesses on what slot its going to?


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> Great information Sixto. How long before launch does DirecTV have to get orbital location authority for D12 or do they already have an approved location. How does that work?





theratpatrol said:


> Any word or guesses on what slot its going to?


Tried to get the orbital location info but no luck.  Not available yet ...

Also no news during the usual Friday FCC filing ...


----------



## BNUMM

Sixto said:


> think we were first ... but where?
> 
> launch provider not shown on: http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html


http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html

I just went to this and it was there. Did you scroll down far enough?


----------



## curt8403

BNUMM said:


> http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html
> 
> I just went to this and it was there. Did you scroll down far enough?


i see it to. but no launch vehicle


----------



## Sixto

BNUMM said:


> http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2009.html
> 
> I just went to this and it was there. Did you scroll down far enough?


yep, but the question has been which launch provider/vehicle and which slot (99/101/103).

we've known about the launch for a while now.


----------



## RAD

I thought folks have been saying that the current Ka/Ku LNB's that have been installed don't do Ka from 101. Would they really want to have to go back out and swap LNB's after the last round of upgrades?


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> I thought folks have been saying that the current Ka/Ku LNB's that have been installed don't do Ka from 101. Would they really want to have to go back out and swap LNB's after the last round of upgrades?


yep, 101 is unlikely.

but remains on the list until we hear for sure ...


----------



## smiddy

Has anyone found a launch date or site yet?


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Has anyone found a launch date or site yet?


All the speculation was SeaLaunch. Recent credible report says 2009 ILS/Proton.

Hasn't been any official posting anywhere. All sites still say TBD.

Actually most sites still speculate to Sea Launch.

No info on slot.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> All the speculation was SeaLaunch. Recent credible report says 2009 ILS/Proton.
> 
> Hasn't been any official posting anywhere. All sites still say TBD.
> 
> Actually most sites still speculate to Sea Launch.
> 
> No info on slot.


Anik at NASASpaceflight.com really knows his $h!t when it comes to the Russian space industry. He doesn't list Directv 12 as a payload for Proton yet and they're looking semi/sorta/kinda booked up into 2010 now, though I'm sure they could squeeze and shuffle stuff around a little bit. I've dropped him a note to ask if he's heard anything along these lines.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1133.msg330040#msg330040


----------



## LameLefty

Okay, already heard back from Anik over at NSF . . . no news from his Russian industry contacts about D12 at all, either in connection with Sea-Launch or on Proton.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Okay, already heard back from Anik over at NSF . . . no news from his Russian industry contacts about D12 at all, either in connection with Sea-Launch or on Proton.


Thanks Lefty.

Still looking like ILS/Proton but we wait ...


----------



## evan_s

Sixto said:


> yep, 101 is unlikely.
> 
> but remains on the list until we hear for sure ...


There are also already sats at 101 using the KA band. They are being used for backhalling signals so 101 is very unlikely.


----------



## HDRoberts

Sixto said:


> yep, 101 is unlikely.
> 
> but remains on the list until we hear for sure ...


As a Dish guy who hasn't followed D10/D11 et al, that is a question I have had for a while. How does D12 give DirecTV more capacity? Aren't the available frequencies at the Ka slots of 99 and 103 filled by S1/S2/D10/D11?

And I wouldn't put too much stock into Lyngsat. They have Echostar 14 going up on a Zenit 2, which doesn't even do GTO.


----------



## curt8403

evan_s said:


> There are also already sats at 101 using the KA band. They are being used for backhalling signals so 101 is very unlikely.


since we don't really know the plans for D12, it is possible that it might be parked at 101 and put on standby. that way it can move to 103 or 99 if needed (quickly)


----------



## RAD

curt8403 said:


> since we don't really know the plans for D12, it is possible that it might be parked at 101 and put on standby. that way it can move to 103 or 99 if needed (quickly)


Chase Carey has mentioned that with D12 they would be able to do up to 200 national HD channels so I'd guess it's not going on standby somewhere.


----------



## curt8403

RAD said:


> Chase Carey has mentioned that with D12 they would be able to do up to 200 national HD channels so I'd guess it's not going on standby somewhere.


regardless of what happens, it will be interesting to say the least


----------



## HDRoberts

So no one can explain how this will magically get them to 200? It doesn't seem to me there is a slot available. 

I was thinking about a switch, but I'd be hesitant is DirecTV is stuck at capacity for only 22 more networks. 

99 and 103 are full, it seems.
101 already has Ka and existing 101 LNBs don't do Ka
107 Ka I think is owned by dish (no one is pointed here anyway)

Where else?


----------



## doctor j

Lets work backwards. gct and Sixto's work on conus Ka transponders puts 5 HD channels per transponder. Tom Robertson's reports on the conus capability of D-10 & D-11 and probably D-12 places their configuration as:

"Downlink in the Ka B-band 18.3-18.8GHz frequency range
40mhz channel spacing (36mhz usable.)
14 Nationwide transponders
10 spotbeam transponder frequencies
49 total spotbeams."

However we know that D-10 was using 16 conus transponders to maximize conus HD prior to lighting up D-11.

Lets say they can use all 24 transponders between D-11 and D-12 if D-12 put at 99, and use 16 D-10 transponders for conus. Redistribute spots between the 5 other Ka "bands" (Spaceway 1 & 2 Ka Hi, D-10 Ka Hi & Ka Low, and D-11/D-12 Hi).

That will allow 40 conus Transponders X 5/tpd = 200 HD channels.

Some combination of these options most likely is what will occur IMHO.

Doctor j


----------



## HDRoberts

Can they really squeeze all the HD locals to the Ka high Spaceways and 8 Ka low TPs? 

If so, why didn't they just build D10 and D11 to have all 24 TPs CONUS capable? Then they wouldn't need another sat. Seems the idea is just to kill the 10 spot TPs on D10 or D11 and move the HD locals elsewhere.


----------



## evan_s

A single sat at 99 or 103 is not enough to fully max out that orbital slot. As configured D10 and D11 can't use KA Hi for anything since that is an entirely different block. Currently only the spaceways are configured for that. It's possible they might be able to reconfigure d12 before launch we'll know on that once we get a FCC filing listing the loc and frequencies. Looking at the Boeing Factsheet at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295 the sats seem to have 16 transponders with 6 spares.

As they are setup now they have 10 transponders frequencies used for spot channels which is more than is really probably needed. 101 for example hosts all it's spot channels off 4 transponders frequencies. I don't expect them to eliminate all the spot frequencies at where ever D12 goes because they would loose all the spot capacity on at least the older sat there and even D12 with out a reconfigure of the sat for KA Hi. I do expect that they will reduce the number of spot frequencies down to probably 4 like they use at 101. That would give them 6 more transponders of conus capacity at where ever D12 goes. 20 total with 10 hosted off each sat. Fire up 4 more transponders worth on the other sat and shift some spots off that sat to keep the power budget and you've got your 50 more channels worth. With only 10 national transponders active on D12 and the other sat at that site they can use more spots to increase the total count of spot beams and capacity.

Keep in mind that it's pretty standard for there to be multiple sats at a single orbital slot and this type of juggling is common too. 101 for example has 4 different sats up there if memory serves. Most Dish spots have multiple sats too.

Assuming d12 stays KA Lo like d10 and d11 DirecTV will still have pleanty of potential bandwidth if they think they need it. The KA His sitting there with just the Spaceways in them providing spots are a prime option for additional National capacity that will require no changes on the ground. Just a launch of a new sat. The Spaceways with their Phased arrays could even host conus channels if they wanted but probably wouldn't be very efficient at it. More likely they will just use them to configure their spot patterns for maximum reuse when shared with another more standard Sat for National and some spot capacity.

As to why they didn't build D10 and D11 to do 24 conus transponders.

1) it's not a very good use of them. Spots allow their transponders to be reused several times which maximized their uplink usage and the spot capacity is needed to deliver locals.

2) They probably can't do it on the power budget they had. Remember these sats have to operate totally from solar power so they have limits on how much power they can use. Receiving a signal. Amplifying it greatly to broadcast it out to the entire continent takes a lot of power. A Spot being aimed at a much smaller area obviously uses less power.


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> A single sat at 99 or 103 is not enough to fully max out that orbital slot. As configured D10 and D11 can't use KA Hi for anything since that is an entirely different block. Currently only the spaceways are configured for that. It's possible they might be able to reconfigure d12 before launch we'll know on that once we get a FCC filing listing the loc and frequencies. Looking at the Boeing Factsheet at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295 the sats seem to have 16 transponders with 6 spares.
> 
> As they are setup now they have 10 transponders frequencies used for spot channels which is more than is really probably needed. 101 for example hosts all it's spot channels off 4 transponders frequencies. I don't expect them to eliminate all the spot frequencies at where ever D12 goes because they would loose all the spot capacity on at least the older sat there and even D12 with out a reconfigure of the sat for KA Hi. I do expect that they will reduce the number of spot frequencies down to probably 4 like they use at 101. That would give them 6 more transponders of conus capacity at where ever D12 goes. 20 total with 10 hosted off each sat. Fire up 4 more transponders worth on the other sat and shift some spots off that sat to keep the power budget and you've got your 50 more channels worth. With only 10 national transponders active on D12 and the other sat at that site they can use more spots to increase the total count of spot beams and capacity.
> 
> Keep in mind that it's pretty standard for there to be multiple sats at a single orbital slot and this type of juggling is common too. 101 for example has 4 different sats up there if memory serves. Most Dish spots have multiple sats too.
> 
> Assuming d12 stays KA Lo like d10 and d11 DirecTV will still have pleanty of potential bandwidth if they think they need it. The KA His sitting there with just the Spaceways in them providing spots are a prime option for additional National capacity that will require no changes on the ground. Just a launch of a new sat. The Spaceways with their Phased arrays could even host conus channels if they wanted but probably wouldn't be very efficient at it. More likely they will just use them to configure their spot patterns for maximum reuse when shared with another more standard Sat for National and some spot capacity.
> 
> As to why they didn't build D10 and D11 to do 24 conus transponders.
> 
> 1) it's not a very good use of them. Spots allow their transponders to be reused several times which maximized their uplink usage and the spot capacity is needed to deliver locals.
> 
> 2) They probably can't do it on the power budget they had. Remember these sats have to operate totally from solar power so they have limits on how much power they can use. Receiving a signal. Amplifying it greatly to broadcast it out to the entire continent takes a lot of power. A Spot being aimed at a much smaller area obviously uses less power.


You said it very well. Exactly.

We won't know the exact juggling until the FCC filing but you covered it all.


----------



## HDRoberts

Thanks. I'm still not convinced (just like the "150" capacity has quickly become 140, with a ton of space set aside for sports). I just don't want to join a company that is deliberately tying their hands by only doing HD on 2 Ka slots. Dish could do better, too, but it seems that will soon have equal capacity on Ku, and do have a slowly unfolding plan to slowly add capacity. 

I do know that there can be more than one sat per slot. I just thing with 16KW, 24 CONUS TPs should be able to be powered. It just seems to be poor forethought to not put flexibility in the sat. Save your spare and/or tens of millions for a launch. 

E11 can power 32 TPs, even though they only have license for 29 at 110, and 10 are used for spots. 

E8 has some spots but can also power those TPs CONUS.


----------



## LameLefty

HDRoberts said:


> Thanks. I'm still not convinced (just like the "150" capacity has quickly become 140, with a ton of space set aside for sports). I just don't want to join a company that is deliberately tying their hands by only doing HD on 2 Ka slots. Dish could do better, too, but it seems that will soon have equal capacity on Ku, and do have a slowly unfolding plan to slowly add capacity.
> 
> I do know that there can be more than one sat per slot. I just thing with 16KW, 24 CONUS TPs should be able to be powered. It just seems to be poor forethought to not put flexibility in the sat. Save your spare and/or tens of millions for a launch.
> 
> E11 can power 32 TPs, even though they only have license for 29 at 110, and 10 are used for spots.
> 
> E8 has some spots but can also power those TPs CONUS.


You need to read ALL of Tom Robertson's postings too, especially those going back to before D10's launch. Capacity discussions versus transponder licenses and orbital locations have all been very thoroughly covered.


----------



## HDRoberts

LameLefty said:


> You need to read ALL of Tom Robertson's postings too, especially those going back to before D10's launch. Capacity discussions versus transponder licenses and orbital locations have all been very thoroughly covered.


All I'm saying is I want a bit more than DirecTV marketing before I buy that they will have 200 CONUS HDs in the next couple years. Direct should be able to tell us how they plan on accomplishing this feat. Ka is great, but there is still only so much bandwidth a 99 and 103. There seems to be a little more, but again I ask if all the local HD could be handled with Ka high to start with, why not do it all that way and save yourself the trouble when D12 is launched?


----------



## Sixto

Figured we've been slacking off on D12 and there must be something filed with the FCC.

I was wrong ... 

Been searching and searching ...

Found some D10 and D11 info I hadn't seen previously. Found info on BSS and 99W-BSS, and RB-1 (99), and RB-2 (103), and RB-5 (119) ... 

Some old, some new ... some no longer relevant.

Nothing, zippo, nada for D12.

They're either waiting to file because there's no need to file sooner or they're still working out the details.

I give up ... for now


----------



## LameLefty

HDRoberts said:



> All I'm saying is I want a bit more than DirecTV marketing before I buy that they will have 200 CONUS HDs in the next couple years. Direct should be able to tell us how they plan on accomplishing this feat. Ka is great, but there is still only so much bandwidth a 99 and 103. There seems to be a little more, but again I ask if all the local HD could be handled with Ka high to start with, why not do it all that way and save yourself the trouble when D12 is launched?


Seriously, if you're doubting the capacity issue, read Tom's posts and the followups that will be there in the thread. There's really no issue about meeting their stated capacity goals with the three sats. Remember, a TON of the bandwidth at 99 and 103 is set aside for spots, which are reused over and over again, just aimed at different places on the ground.

And frankly, Directv doesn't have to tell _us_ anything. They do have to explain it to the FCC. As Sixto's regular searches have shown, however, there's still no news from them. I don't think that's very surprising given that launch and operation is still about a year away by all accounts.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So theres no way to do Ka from 101 with the current LNB's? You think they would have planed ahead and put both Ku and Ka LNB's on the new dishes, or is that even possible? But, they can do HD from 101 in MPEG4, right?


----------



## LameLefty

theratpatrol said:


> So theres no way to do Ka from 101 with the current LNB's? You think they would have planed ahead and put both Ku and Ka LNB's on the new dishes, or is that even possible? But, they can do HD from 101 in MPEG4, right?


The 101 LNB is Ku-only. The encoding method (MPEG2 v. MPEG4) doesn't matter to the LNB - it's just receiving the signal and passing it down the chain.

However, Directv's constellation of satellites and programming basically preclude Ku being used for HD, either MPEG2 or MPEG4. There's too much core SD CONUS programming and too many SD locals coming from there to easily fit in any HD.


----------



## Sixto

theratpatrol said:


> So theres no way to do Ka from 101 with the current LNB's? You think they would have planed ahead and put both Ku and Ka LNB's on the new dishes, or is that even possible? But, they can do HD from 101 in MPEG4, right?


All indications have been no Ka from 101 with current LNB's (unless that has changed very recently).

Yep, 101 can do Ku MPEG4 (but comments have been made that it needed to be at the transponder level).


----------



## lwilli201

Sixto. Was there a request by Dish to allow only a 2 degree separation between Sat's using the same down link frequencies? I believe that 4 degrees is the norm. Of course it depends on the capabilities of the 101 LNBs. It just does not seem logical for the current generation of LNBs to not be both KA and KU capable to allow more flexibility for placement of Sat's in the 99 to 103 window.


----------



## evan_s

HDRoberts said:


> Thanks. I'm still not convinced (just like the "150" capacity has quickly become 140, with a ton of space set aside for sports). I just don't want to join a company that is deliberately tying their hands by only doing HD on 2 Ka slots.


2 KA slots is not tying DirecTV's hands at all. Each KA orbital slot is actually 2 500 mhz/ghz blocks so is twice the bandwidth of a KU location. In addition the transponder sizes aren't fixed so DirecTV uses fewer larger transponders with a different polarization and offset resulting in ~10% more useable bandwidth than KU. For the Backhaul sats at 101 DirecTV uses 250 Mhz transonders!!

With their 2 KA slots they have the equivalent of almost 4 and a half KU orbital slots. DirecTV has plenty of bandwidth for handling their HD single. Dish is the one that is currently so crunched for bandwidth it is having to convert all their content to MPEG4 and downrez their HD to make it all fit.


----------



## Sixto

Guess we got two threads going on this topic but will finish a thought here.

Another reason for not doing Ka at 101 is the stacking plan within the home.

There's no room currently in the home stack plan, unless they require SWM.

Per the spacing question ... I do believe 2 degree spacing for Ka is valid and ok.

The more I think about this, I again think about the convert D12 to Ka Hi topic. I wonder if they might go down that route. That could provide MUCH more D12 CONUS bandwidth to the home.

Spaceway-1 and Spaceway-2 currently each have 1000Mhz in the current stack plan. And it's almost all wasted since each home just needs a few Spaceway transponders if any.


----------



## Sixto

Started this in the other thread but figured would try to continue the conversation here ... as it relates to D12.

The current DirecTV stack plan in the home accommodates 6 Ghz of bandwidth. This assumes non-SWM. A SWM-only environment could support more then 6 Ghz (but would not be backward compatible).

101/110/119 have 2 Ghz total; and Spaceway-1, Spaceway-2, D10, and D11 each have 1 Ghz.

Spaceway-1 & Spaceway-2 are both Ka Hi (19.7Ghz-20.2GHz). Each has 500Mhz x 2 (RHCP/LHCP). 

D10 & D11 are both Ka Lo (18.3Ghz-18.8Ghz). Each has 500Mhz x 2 (RHCP/LHCP).

If we look to optimize bandwidth ...

The 2Ghz for 101/110/119 is all being used. It's 950Mhz-1450Mhz x 4 within the home and no need to talk about it more. All very utilized.

Of the 1Ghz for D10, and the 1Ghz for D11 (250Mhz-750Mhz x 4), 1.2Ghz (300Mhz x 4) is being used for CONUS, and 800Mhz (200Mhz x 4) is being used for LIL (spot beams).

Of the 1Ghz for SW1, and the 1Ghz for SW2 (1650Mhz-2150Mhz x 4), all 2Ghz is being used for LIL (spot beams).

So in reality, of the 6Ghz in the home, 3.2Ghz is CONUS, and 2.8Ghz is LIL.

Putting D12 at 99 or 103 with Ka Lo (what it was configured for) could use part of the 400Mhz (200Mhz x 2) now used for LIL, if the LIL transponders (16-24) at that slot were reduced from 10.

But putting D12 at 99 or 103 with Ka Hi could maybe use a larger chunk of the Spaceway 1Ghz, since it's all LIL.

Now there may be very good reasons to not convert D12 to Ka Hi but after reviewing this, sure seems like MUCH not very utilized bandwidth at Ka Hi.

Would love for anyone to punch holes in any of this. Me thinking that transponder numbers and transponder sizing at Ka Hi may be a problem but not sure.

And this is separate from the future BSS 17.2Ghz-17.7Ghz.

Feedback welcome ...


----------



## evan_s

I have to agree that there is pretty much 0 chance D12 will end up at 101. It's already in use for Backhauling. It can't be received by the current LNBs. There is no room for it in the current stack plan. Far to many problems and there are other much better other options.

You are right that putting at least the Conus transponders in KA Hi would maximize the amount of conus capacity but I don't believe that is what they will do. The main reason is because of their own press release don't indicate that. If they had the full compliment of conus transponders for D12 they would be stating 220 or 225 channels total capacity with the 70 or 75 more channels D12 would provide with 14 transponders. Instead they are only saying it will provide 200 national channels total capacity. If I remember correctly they also said they would have capacity for 2500 locals from the 1500 they state now. This is a 1000 local increase instead of the 500 local increase we saw with D11. This info from the press releases clearly indicates to me that D12 will be KA lo and will be located at 99 or 103 and will thus end up providing less conus capacity and more spot capacity like I've described a couple times.


----------



## P Smith

Just first remark: D10/D11 have 24 tpn x 36 MHz , so it will equal 864 MHz; I would recheck SW-1/SW-2 FCC papers, so far both use only 6 tpns x ~ 70...80 MHz(?).


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> I have to agree that there is pretty much 0 chance D12 will end up at 101. It's already in use for Backhauling. It can't be received by the current LNBs. There is no room for it in the current stack plan. Far to many problems and there are other much better other options.
> 
> You are right that putting at least the Conus transponders in KA Hi would maximize the amount of conus capacity but I don't believe that is what they will do. The main reason is because of their own press release don't indicate that. If they had the full compliment of conus transponders for D12 they would be stating 220 or 225 channels total capacity with the 70 or 75 more channels D12 would provide with 14 transponders. Instead they are only saying it will provide 200 national channels total capacity. If I remember correctly they also said they would have capacity for 2500 locals from the 1500 they state now. This is a 1000 local increase instead of the 500 local increase we saw with D11. This info from the press releases clearly indicates to me that D12 will be KA lo and will be located at 99 or 103 and will thus end up providing less conus capacity and more spot capacity like I've described a couple times.


But to get 50 on D12 you'd need 10 transponders. Haven't been able to make the math work with Ka Lo (yet).


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Just first remark: D10/D11 have 24 tpn x 36 MHz , so it will equal 864 MHz; I would recheck SW-1/SW-2 FCC papers, so far both use only 6 tpns x ~ 70...80 MHz(?).


For D10 & D11, there's 6Mhz spacing at the beginning and the end, then 6Mhz between most transponders, and 8Mhz between a few. Adds up to 1Ghz.


----------



## P Smith

I did attempt to count useful bandwidth.


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> But to get 50 on D12 you'd need 10 transponders. Haven't been able to make the math work with Ka Lo (yet).


I don;t know for sure, But I would think they would be able to use only 6 to 8 spotbeams frequency for the whole country, if they have enough spots I don't see why they can alternate them in this way and use only a very small amount of the spectrum, opening up lots more space for some conus transponders to be turned on...

And there is one other thing to consider... NO where did that press release say that the D12 was going to be the one providing all the additional HD Conus and LIL channels.. Whats to say they don't plan on moving some of the LIL stations (small markets that have no HD yet, convert them to mpeg4 hd) from 101 to 99 or 103 spots and then flip some switched and turn off some spots and fire up some more conus at 101.. I doubt thats what they are planning, but there is no reason that can't be considered either...


----------



## LameLefty

Here's a thought: aren't downlink frequencies somewhat limited by the number of uplink facilities? Is it possible there are some more uplink facilities in the works which might give more flexibility for spotbeams, freeing up some CONUS bandwidth?


----------



## Sixto

inkahauts said:


> I don;t know for sure, But I would think they would be able to use only 6 to 8 spotbeams frequency for the whole country, if they have enough spots I don't see why they can alternate them in this way and use only a very small amount of the spectrum, opening up lots more space for some conus transponders to be turned on...
> 
> And there is one other thing to consider... NO where did that press release say that the D12 was going to be the one providing all the additional HD Conus and LIL channels.. Whats to say they don't plan on moving some of the LIL stations (small markets that have no HD yet, convert them to mpeg4 hd) from 101 to 99 or 103 spots and then flip some switched and turn off some spots and fire up some more conus at 101.. I doubt thats what they are planning, but there is no reason that can't be considered either...


You gotta figure they're at least going to keep 3-6 LIL transponders each on D10 and D11. And they only have 10, so at most you free up 4-7 transponders (20-35 HD channels of bandwidth).

I also need to go look at how many LIL are on 101. Didn't remember that.

That 2Ghz at Ka Hi is so under-utilized now that D10 and D11 are alive and well. There must be some plan to re-swizzle stuff over time, maybe not D12 though. (Or change the stacking plan if possible).

For the NY DMA, the Spaceway-2 transponders are all zero. And 4 of the 6 Spaceway-1 transponders are zero. That's 2Ghz of bandwidth with only 1/6 use in the NY DMA.

P.S. And yep P., it's all not available bandwidth when you take into account spacing between transponders


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Here's a thought: aren't downlink frequencies somewhat limited by the number of uplink facilities? Is it possible there are some more uplink facilities in the works which might give more flexibility for spotbeams, freeing up some CONUS bandwidth?


Interesting. Hmmm.

When I was searching for more D12 info the other day, I did find some FCC Filings for new uplink centers. I need to go find that again. I think one was in New Hampshire. Figured it was just for all the LIL HD being turned on.


----------



## LameLefty

I hope Tom can re-join these discussions soon. His posts about the entire DBS "signal chain" are where I gleaned most of own understanding of how it all works. RF is definitely _not_ my strong suit. I was a spacecraft systems guy, when I worked in the industry, and in college I was more into vehicle dynamics and aerodynamics.


----------



## doctor j

Another factor in all of this that has been somewhat overlooked is the acceptance of only 5 channels per Ka transponder. I think we will all agree that full HD resolution with the advent of Directv's utilization of MPEG4 is a good thing. "I don't want to get in a 'she said-she said' thing" but Dish is compressing 7 channels in the 2/3 sized Ku transponder. Certain combinations of programming could probably allow more channels on some transponders without "noticable" picture degradation.

Just another fly is this ointment that we can really only speculate till the facts are revealed.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> Another factor in all of this that has been somewhat overlooked is the acceptance of only 5 channels per Ka transponder. I think we will all agree that full HD resolution with the advent of Directv's utilization of MPEG4 is a good thing. "I don't want to get in a 'she said-she said' thing" but Dish is compressing 7 channels in the 2/3 sized Ku transponder. Certain combinations of programming could probably allow more channels on some transponders without "noticable" picture degradation.
> 
> Just another fly is this ointment that we can really only speculate till the facts are revealed.
> 
> Doctor j


That's a very good point. Another point: how many local DMAs are using their "full" capacity of allocated transponders? For instance, my market has two spots aimed at it [tp 17 and tp 18 on 99(s)]. There are only four currently-active HD channels in my market, all on tp 17. Tp 18 has four more channels as placeholders, running test streams for the others we have currently only in SD. Yet with the two tp's allocated, we could conceivably add two more HD channels besides the 4 existing and 8 total planned. I seriously doubt my market is any different than dozens of others in this respect.

In other words, how much do situations like this contribute to Directv's stated plans of having capacity for "up to" 1500 HD locals? And by "reswizzling" capacity (to borrow Sixto's phrase) to reduce excess capacity or assign channels to neighboring spots when possible (for instance, I get the Evansville, Indiana spot with the same signal strength as the Nashville spot, even though it's three hours north of here), can Directv tweak more CONUS capacity?


----------



## smiddy

I would be against further compression...I like the current picture quality I get.


----------



## doctor j

smiddy said:


> I would be against further compression...I like the current picture quality I get.


I whole heartedly AGREE, but just reviewing options.

Doctor j


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> I also need to go look at how many LIL are on 101. Didn't remember that.


I believe that there are at least 6 transponders being used for spotbeams right now...

Am I the only one that would like to see Directv split up all their locations to c and s like they have done for the 99 and 103 so its always easy to tell spots and conus?


----------



## P Smith

Press Help during Sat Antenna setup will tell you what tpn are SB tpn.


----------



## evan_s

Sixto said:


> But to get 50 on D12 you'd need 10 transponders. Haven't been able to make the math work with Ka Lo (yet).


The way I see it working is you add 6 more transponders at say 99 and run 10 off of each sat D11 and D12 leaving 4 to use for their spot patters just like they use with 101. With only 10 conus channels you have more capacity for spots. You then also pull some spots off D10 since it has alignment issues anyway and fire up 4 more transponders. 10 more transponders. A lot more locals and still all KA lo.

I can't see them reconfiguring for KA HI where there is currently only a Spaceway providing spots and not being able to fire up the same 14 transponders that d10 and d11 have been running. Especially since the spaceway sats are extremely configurable with their phased array. I also don't see them saying with 10 transponder frequencies for spots since that is a lot more than they should really need.


----------



## toy4two

all is well until NASA's tool bag bumps into one of these sats


----------



## hdtvfan0001

toy4two said:


> all is well until NASA's tool bag bumps into one of these sats


Don't even say that!!!! :eek2: :eek2:  :lol:


----------



## bobnielsen

At least the tool bag is at a much lower altitude.


----------



## P Smith

bobnielsen said:


> At least the tool bag is at a much lower altitude.


You know, before reach GSO, the sat must cross lower altitudes with pretty high speed. So, theoretically it possible.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> You know, before reach GSO, the sat must cross lower altitudes with pretty high speed. So, theoretically it possible.


The tool bag will reenter long before D12 is launched. It's also big enough to be tracked and cataloged as an independent object - if it was still in orbit and posed the slightest risk of intersecting the trajectory of any launch vehicle, the launch would be timed to avoid the risk.


----------



## P Smith

I know all the ordeal, but not sure about "_It's also big enough to be tracked and cataloged as an independent object_"; seems to me it is too small for that.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> I know all the ordeal, but not sure about "_It's also big enough to be tracked and cataloged as an independent object_"; seems to me it is too small for that.


Not at all. USSPACECOM tracks objects downt to several centimeters in diameter. There's also a story on Spaceweather.com about an experienced sat watcher filming it from the ground - it's easily visible to a serious amateur as an 8th magnitude object.

http://www.spaceweather.com/


----------



## P Smith

Oh, that's encouraging, I would try my 10x binocular for that, just need mount it stable. Sad I missed the bag flyby time from yesterday.
ISS Toolbag 05:32:51 pm WSW 05:35:12 48° 6.8 (dim)


----------



## bobnielsen

This is pure speculation, but I had a thought this morning:

I may be all wet here, but could Directv move one of the Spaceways to the same orbital location as the other and modify D12 to use the Ka-high band from the vacated Spaceway location? That would offer a better opportunity for increasing the number of CONUS transponders than colocating it with D10 or D12 and by some shifting around of the spotbeams might even cover more of the currently-unserved DMAs.

Edit: Looking back at some earlier posts, I see where Ka-high has already been postulated.


----------



## evan_s

Definitely possible Bob but as i posted since the national channel count is only going from 150 to 200 I expect it will stay KA low and they will reshuffle things to make more efficient use of the KA low bands.

KA Hi is definitely a good option for future Conus expansion either by d12 or some other future sat. An entire slot used for just spot beams isn't being heavily used by any means.


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> Definitely possible Bob but as i posted since the national channel count is only going from 150 to 200 I expect it will stay KA low and they will reshuffle things to make more efficient use of the KA low bands.
> 
> KA Hi is definitely a good option for future Conus expansion either by d12 or some other future sat. An entire slot used for just spot beams isn't being heavily used by any means.


yep, there's probably much thought going into how to best use the Ka Hi 1Ghz at 99° and 103° (eventually).

2Ghz Ka Hi (with spacing) in the current stack plan.


----------



## smiddy

I wonder if there will be a flurry of information on DirecTV 12 after the 1st of the year, thoughts?


----------



## mobandit

P Smith said:


> I know all the ordeal, but not sure about "_It's also big enough to be tracked and cataloged as an independent object_"; seems to me it is too small for that.


NAVSPACECOM (now defunct) operated a tracking system known as 'The Fence'. It was essentially a CW radar, with three transmitter locations and six "listening" posts, stretched across the southern US. It could track objects out to about 15,000 NM. The tool bag could definitely be tracked by The Fence, as it's resolution capability was pretty amazing. There are still a few references to The Fence, although I am no longer sure who operates it as NAVSPACECOM is no longer in existence.

You can do a search on Google Earth for this and see the nine sites.


----------



## LameLefty

mobandit said:


> NAVSPACECOM (now defunct) operated a tracking system known as 'The Fence'. It was essentially a CW radar, with three transmitter locations and six "listening" posts, stretched across the southern US. It could track objects out to about 15,000 NM. The tool bag could definitely be tracked by The Fence, as it's resolution capability was pretty amazing. There are still a few references to The Fence, although I am no longer sure who operates it as NAVSPACECOM is no longer in existence.
> 
> You can do a search on Google Earth for this and see the nine sites.


Google is your friend. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Space_Surveillance_System

There's absolutely no doubt that the toolbag is large enough to track. I've heard reliable estimates that anything over a couple centimeters can be tracked out to several thousand miles or more. I have no reason to doubt that. The Chinese ASAT test last year (and the U.S. response misleadingly publicized as a "safety" measure due to a potential hydrazine tank rupture of the satellite) created hundreds upon hundreds of fragments, each with their own SPACECOM target identifier and published elsets.

EDITED TO ADD: Here's the current element set if someone wants to track it on their own. 



Code:


ISS DEB [TOOLBAG]       
1 33442U 98067BL  08338.15752736  .00030012  00000-0  21505-3 0   256
2 33442  51.6456 230.1947 0003994  55.7128 304.3980 15.73420523  2117


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I wonder if there will be a flurry of information on DirecTV 12 after the 1st of the year, thoughts?


I suspect not...until closer to the launch date.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect not...until closer to the launch date.


i check every day. nothing yet. they may still be ironing out the details on how to best use D12. and they probably don't want the competition to know until they need to.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> i check every day. nothing yet. they may still be ironing out the details on how to best use D12. and they probably don't want the competition to know until they need to.


You may be on to something, considering everything DiSH has done to stay in the _game_, so to speak.


----------



## ChrisPC

LameLefty said:


> Google is your friend.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Space_Surveillance_System


I've always wondered where the stations were. My wife grew up about 20 miles from one of the stations, and I never knew; her mom still lives there. We used to drive by it all the time. My parents live about 30 miles from the main transmitter!


----------



## P Smith

There is much interesting info from Tom Kneisel !
Amazing ! He did that more then 10 years ago.
http://www.k4gfg.us/navspasur/index.html


----------



## smiddy

Sorry Sixto, I should learn to look myself, but have you heard any new news you can share with the DBSTalk Community?


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Sorry Sixto, I should learn to look myself, but have you heard any new news you can share with the DBSTalk Community?


All quiet.


----------



## smiddy

Thanks Man!


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Sorry Sixto, I should learn to look myself, but have you heard any new news you can share with the DBSTalk Community?


To add to Sixto's "No news" answer, there's still not a whisper of D12 from my sources in the space/launch services.

However, there is an interesting situation in late 2009. ILS has had a slot held in "late 2009" for the XM 5 satellite. Given the recent merger, and the fact that the SiriusXM stock prices have tanked and badly (it's something like fifteen cents a share! ), it's possible that XM 5 may not launch as initially planned. Hell, it's possible SiriusXM won't be able afford to complete the satellite let alone pay another ~$70M for a launch.  In that case, there'd be an open slot for D12.


----------



## P Smith

Take it !


----------



## leww37334

after d11, suddenly I am not all that interested in d12, fool me once, etc.


----------



## Sixto

leww37334 said:


> after d11, suddenly I am not all that interested in d12, fool me once, etc.


with d11 there was MUCH latent demand. legacy to be converted, dns to be converted, nfl to find a home for, list goes on and on ... 90% utilized now ... 73% not considering ppv.

d12 will be lots of bandwidth for totally new ideas.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

leww37334 said:


> after d11, suddenly I am not all that interested in d12, fool me once, etc.


Despite the negative comment about being "fooled", which many of don't feel at all was the case....

Sixto is correct that D12 will be an entirely different situation anyway.

Now that they have the majority of the LIL Hd channels migrated, as well as alot of the RSN conversions done...D12 has alot of bandwidth that is not yet assigned to any pre-determined content.

I suspect they'll still be some HD LIL and RSN expansion, but there isn't all that much left in comparison with what D11 had...so.....look for more National HD with D12.


----------



## smiddy

I'm game for more National HD...DirecTV has done a fine job leveling things out cautiously to help all their customers' needs/wants. Those locals will make for better competition between DirecTV and those local Cable companies. A bigger user base should mean more for everyone else too...

I look forward to seeing D12 get into orbit and I will undoubtedly be hyped up about it as I was with the D10 and D11. It will be very kewl!


----------



## dwrats_56

smiddy said:


> I'm game for more National HD...DirecTV has done a fine job leveling things out cautiously to help all their customers' needs/wants. Those locals will make for better competition between DirecTV and those local Cable companies. A bigger user base should mean more for everyone else too...
> 
> I look forward to seeing D12 get into orbit and I will undoubtedly be hyped up about it as I was with the D10 and D11. It will be very kewl!


I totally agree with you SMIDDY.

I really want to see more HD for HBO, Cinemax and Encore.

I hope that D12 will meet that need.

By the way SMIDDY, I have meant to say this earlier, but you looked GREAT in the MACY's T'day parade.:grin:


----------



## smiddy

dwrats_56 said:


> I totally agree with you SMIDDY.
> 
> I really want to see more HD for HBO, Cinemax and Encore.
> 
> I hope that D12 will meet that need.
> 
> By the way SMIDDY, I have meant to say this earlier, but you looked GREAT in the MACY's T'day parade.:grin:


Thanks man, I had a good hairday that day!


----------



## RAD

Saw this in http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr...sion/news/e3i1a67de89e2702bf9c66c4acc6ee410cb

"For example, the company will launch a new satellite, DirecTV 12, in 2009, bringing its national HD channel offering to 200, Rubin said. But another launch has been pushed back because of the uncertain economic outlook. "

Hadn't heard anything about any satellites after D12, anyone have the story on that???


----------



## sunking

Sixto said:


> with d11 there was MUCH latent demand. legacy to be converted, dns to be converted, nfl to find a home for, list goes on and on ... 90% utilized now ... 73% not considering ppv.
> 
> d12 will be lots of bandwidth for totally new ideas.


But wasn't D12 originally slated as a ground spare and we were being told that D11 has plenty of room for all of their grand plans? Now we are relying on D12 to give us service that at least if my memory is correct was if not promised, certainly implied would be available after the D11 launch.

Or my memory is wrong, which surely is possible.

I just think that some peoples frustration stems from the fact that we all waited a long time for D11 to launch, yet the overall service increase really hasn't been that great as a result. I understand they added a ton of locals, but they are all lesser DMAs that the majority of people don't care about. That's why they are lesser DMAs, because % wise not that many people live and are affected by them. And I don't like having my bill increased every year so that I can subsidize a new satellite that will service 10 farms and a bunch of cows in DMA #12312 having local HD service  A bit tongue in cheek here, no offense intended towards the cows.


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> Saw this in http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr...sion/news/e3i1a67de89e2702bf9c66c4acc6ee410cb
> 
> "For example, the company will launch a new satellite, DirecTV 12, in 2009, bringing its national HD channel offering to 200, Rubin said. But another launch has been pushed back because of the uncertain economic outlook. "
> 
> Hadn't heard anything about any satellites after D12, anyone have the story on that???


There were a few BSS satellites in the works. A few FCC filings but nothing built.


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> Saw this in http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr...sion/news/e3i1a67de89e2702bf9c66c4acc6ee410cb
> 
> "For example, the company will launch a new satellite, DirecTV 12, in 2009, bringing its national HD channel offering to 200, Rubin said. But another launch has been pushed back because of the uncertain economic outlook. "
> 
> Hadn't heard anything about any satellites after D12, anyone have the story on that???


We need to go listen to the presentation to make sure it's quoted correctly and they didn't defer D12. I have no time now to go look ... later ...


----------



## smiddy

Apparently there is a rumor of a D13, another Boeing Satellite, which is on hold. I'll see what I can find.


----------



## smiddy

Ok, here's a link: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-2322A1.pdf


----------



## P Smith

Or a quote:


> On November 16, 2006, the Satellite Division granted, subject to conditions, the remaining portion of DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC's
> (DIRECTV) application to construct, launch, and operate a direct broadcast satellite, DIRECTV 13 (Call Sign: S2693), at the 110°
> W.L. nominal orbital location. This satellite will replace the DIRECTV 5 satellite. Portions of the application pertaining to operation
> in the 36 MHz and 82 MHz wideband modes and launch of a payload capable of operating on even-numbered channels 2-26 were
> previously dismissed without prejudice to refiling. Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized to construct, launch, and operate the
> DIRECTV 13 DBS space station at the 109.8° W.L. orbital location with feeder links (Earth-to-space) in the 17.3-17.8 GHz band on
> DBS channels 28, 30, and 32, and service links (space-to-Earth) in the 12.2-12.7 GHz band on *DBS channels 28, 30, and 32*. In
> addition, the Satellite Division granted DIRECTV's request for waiver of the requirement to provide the location of the telemetry,
> tracking, and control (TT&C) earth stations associated with the DIRECTV 13 space station, with the condition that DIRECTV must
> provide the information prior to launch of the DIRECTV 13 satellite.


So, only three transponders granted and 1:1 replacement for old sat at 110W.


----------



## evan_s

smiddy said:


> Ok, here's a link: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-2322A1.pdf


D13 has been canceled for a while. It was canceled because Tweener licenses that had been granted.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1477345&postcount=10


----------



## smiddy

Thanks Evan, which makes sense now from the article.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> We need to go listen to the presentation to make sure it's quoted correctly and they didn't defer D12. I have no time now to go look ... later ...


Ok, just listened to today's 40 minute presentation by Jonathan Rubin (DirecTV SVP, Financial Planning & Investor Relations).

During the Q&A, Jonathan said the following:

37:43 thru 38:37 of the presentation ..."We're in pretty good shape for satellites right now. In a perfect world, we probably would have started building another satellite next year, just to get extra capacity and also provide additional backup facilities, but given the state of the economy we've decided to push that out a year. Certainly not going to effect our business plan, but it's the kind of discretionary spending where you can sit there and justify holding off a year because we do have a very young satellite fleet and right now we're going to launch another satellite as it is in 2009 DirecTV-12 which gets us to about 200 national HD channels, so it's not at all clear that we're going to need the capacity from a competitive standpoint, but it was one of those nice to have's, not a must have, so we pushed that out, so it's that kind of thought process."​That's it's word-for-word.

D12 is fine.


----------



## smiddy

That statement makes it sound like they could potentially hold off D12 if so desired, since it is a nice-to-have. I am excited about 200 National HD though with D12, that essentially means it will carry a huge load of National HD like D10 did/does.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> That statement makes it sound like they could potentially hold off D12 if so desired, since it is a nice-to-have. I am excited about 200 National HD though with D12, that essentially means it will carry a huge load of National HD like D10 did/does.


Or in other words...."It ain't over til its over".

In any case...its a go for D12 as of this time, and since the prep cycle starts some time in advance...we should ahve something definitive on a launch date confirmation some time early in 2009.


----------



## Sixto

Yep, and they stressed and stressed the importance of HD so D12 is important.


----------



## smiddy

I'll keep looking internally for information on a date. It is saying TBD at this point.


----------



## Piratefan98

smiddy said:


> I am excited about 200 National HD though with D12, that essentially means it will carry a huge load of National HD like D10 did/does.


That is misplaced excitement my friend. D11 went up with a bunch of National HD fanfare and hype, and thus far nearly none has been delivered.

So ..... I certainly wouldn't expect D12 to carry a "huge load" of National HD.

Jeff
Turd Bird Customer since March, 2008


----------



## Sixto

Let's try to keep the D11 utilization debate elsewhere. Obviously there was much latent bandwidth demand for D11 (9 Legacy, 8 DNS, 13 RSN, 16 NFL, ...). 46+ HD channels (66%) were needed prior to D11 launch.

May not be the case for D12.

Back to D12.


----------



## QuickDrop

Piratefan98 said:


> That is misplaced excitement my friend. D11 went up with a bunch of National HD fanfare and hype, and thus far nearly none has been delivered.
> 
> So ..... I certainly wouldn't expect D12 to carry a "huge load" of National HD.
> 
> Jeff
> Turd Bird Customer since March, 2008


1. Much of that hype for D11 was created in this forum with threads like this one.

2. It's not as though D* has not used D11, and almost nearly to capacity. We underestimated the chunk of space moving everything from Mpeg-2 to Mpeg-4 would take, most especially the sports packages. D* also made a business decision to favor giving more people their local RSN full time over truly national channels, though since many of those existed as part-time channels already I don't know how much true channel space that took up.

If you don't expect D12 to carry a large number of national channels, what do you expect D* to use it for?


----------



## doctor j

My $.02 worth.

I've pondered on the National DirecTV HD channel releases for > 4 years on a daily basis.
I've read and studied every forum, press release, rumor I could find or google search on this matter.
No question that the most factual info is here at DBSTalk!

Now just an observation.

D-10 was a huge boost for National HD channels.

SW-1 & SW-2 are very important in LIL HD coverage but implementation may be more problematic than was anticipated and total # of LIL HD channels covered may be less than expected. Maybe a lot less.

LIL by D-10 and D-11 may have placed more limits on National HD than anticipated and D-12 will be brought online to fully cover National HD needs.

It's going to be a while, maybe sometime in 2009, maybe later , before D-12 is operational.

Thus if between now and time X when D-12 is active the total # of National HD channel slots is finite and less than originally expected:

1)Would it be better marketing stategy to max out capacity early and have a long (>12 to 18 month) span of virtually no new offering; 
2)OR Piddle out a few channels ever few months and keep the "drooling dogs" hooked on the expectations of unlimited HD channel availability.

I suspect in some way option #2 is what we are experiencing right now.

I'm not complaining too much because the total non covered options vs what is available is fairly small and I can live with a few "scraps" every now and then.

I also hope that the discontinuation of MPEG-2 HD channels in Qt 1 or 2, 2009 may in someway allow one or two 101 transponders for HD and get that 140 channel # to 150+.

I'm certain that the transition to digital feeds by all the local channels is keeping a lot of "stream juggling" at the uplink centers busy.
The somewhat unexpected hardball by some channels/local networks in completing DirecTV carriage has also occupied a lot of "negotiating" resources.

All of this plus much more that I can't comprehend leads to the state of DireTV HD coverage as it is.
Overall I'm extremely satisfied!!!
Yet very GREEDY! I want MORE!
What the HECK.
I want it ALL!

Thanks for listening.
Happy Holidays To ALL

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> My $.02 worth. ...


didn't get a chance to comment earlier ... but, yep, u said it well ...


----------



## LameLefty

Methinks the Good Doctor is a smart man. The comments about SW1 and 2 is an interesting angle I had considered but never heard much about so I didn't do more than wonder internally then set the matter aside. Remember that SW1 & 2 were not originally intended to broadcast TV at all, but internet data. Their broadcast configuration is very different from any other Directv satellite - it's quite possible when they were repurposed that reality of their operation and use as television broadcast platforms worked out differently than planned.

Remember too that when Directv 10 was launched there was some bit of delay before it went live. There were rumors and hints and intimations about some problem with one or more spotbeam reflectors, particularly those that might be directed towards certain areas of the country. 

These two bits (assuming they are both at least partially or somewhat true) could indeed have resulted in less capacity than planned.

In any event, I'm happy with the service I get for the money I pay. In my DMA it is by FAR the best option and that, to me, is the bottom line (much as I want AMC HD and HBO Signature HD).


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So any news yet on which slot it will be parked in?

Thanks


----------



## P Smith

119W .


----------



## smiddy

The Boeing site I saw shows TBD yet...


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> 119W .


Wouldn't that require new Ka LNBs for existing dishes and render the brand new/just released Slimline 3 dish (which only does 99-101-103) totally obsolete? Somehow I don't think 119 is the answer.


----------



## sunking

QuickDrop said:


> 1. Much of that hype for D11 was created in this forum with threads like this one.
> 
> 2. It's not as though D* has not used D11, and almost nearly to capacity. We underestimated the chunk of space moving everything from Mpeg-2 to Mpeg-4 would take, most especially the sports packages. D* also made a business decision to favor giving more people their local RSN full time over truly national channels, though since many of those existed as part-time channels already I don't know how much true channel space that took up.
> 
> If you don't expect D12 to carry a large number of national channels, what do you expect D* to use it for?


History seems to point to more PPV


----------



## bjlc

just how soon do you really think that you would see anything from D 12?

even if they announced today when the launch was.. it would be at least 90 days..
and then another 90 days before they lit the thing up..

so you are looking at a half of year from right now, if they ANNOUNCED TODAY..

realistically you are looking at any time between September and Next Christmas before you get even one channel on this new bird..

and even more realistically much closer to Christmas then September.. 

isn't that the case?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sunking said:


> History seems to point to more PPV


A very limited history and limited PPV...don't think they're shooting up a $100 Million news sat to focus on PPV.


----------



## LameLefty

bjlc said:


> just how soon do you really think that you would see anything from D 12?
> 
> even if they announced today when the launch was.. it would be at least 90 days..
> and then another 90 days before they lit the thing up..
> 
> so you are looking at a half of year from right now, if they ANNOUNCED TODAY..
> 
> realistically you are looking at any time between September and Next Christmas before you get even one channel on this new bird..
> 
> and even more realistically much closer to Christmas then September..
> 
> isn't that the case?


All of this is besides the point: if you've followed this thread at all you know already that no commercial launch provider has yet even listed D12 on its manifests. That is the key - once Directv has a firm launch commitment in place, it'll show up on that company's list of upcoming launches.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bjlc said:


> just how soon do you really think that you would see anything from D 12?
> 
> even if they announced today when the launch was.. it would be at least 90 days..
> and then another 90 days before they lit the thing up..
> 
> so you are looking at a half of year from right now, if they ANNOUNCED TODAY..
> 
> realistically you are looking at any time between September and Next Christmas before you get even one channel on this new bird..
> 
> and even more realistically much closer to Christmas then September..
> 
> isn't that the case?


Since the launch has been projected to be near the end of 2009, I don't expect any new channels from D12 until very late 2009, more likely [strike]1Q2009[/strike]1Q2010.

Or as LameLefty so well puts--until it's listed on a manifest, we're guessing. 

Peace,
Tom


----------



## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> ../ I don't expect any new channels from D12 until very late 2009, more likely 1Q2009.


Don't you mean 1Q2010?


----------



## smiddy

RAD said:


> Don't you mean 1Q2010?


I think he did!


----------



## Tom Robertson

He did....


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Or as LameLefty so well puts--until it's listed on a manifest, we're guessing.


Or else speculating...  :lol:


----------



## smiddy

I'll simply be _waiting_.


----------



## Sixto

From yesterday's FCC Filings: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2699A1.pdf"On December 9, 2008, DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC withdrew its pending applications for authority to launch and operate a 17/24 GHz BSS satellite system at the nominal 119 degrees W.L. orbital location."​
Here's the previous information on BSS Satellite RB-5 from January 2008: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141471

Still appear to have BSS RB-1 at 99°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141474

And BSS RB-2 at 103°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141476

And BSS RB-3 at 107°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141467

And BSS RB-4 at 111°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141467


----------



## lwilli201

It would appear that DIRECTV RB-5 has not even been contracted out to be built. It is interesting that a new sat at 118.4 was in the plans as late as January 2008. This would seem to reinforce the notion that Directv wants to consolidate all sats in the 99-103 area. But who knows for sure.


----------



## turey22

maybe not the place to ask but i know that they have a slime3 for the 103.101.99 whats going to happen to the other satellites?


----------



## inkahauts

turey22 said:


> maybe not the place to ask but i know that they have a slime3 for the 103.101.99 whats going to happen to the other satellites?


Good place to ask... In short, we don't know yet. Nothing has been announced. However, we all believe that Directv isn't going to make everyone change out their lnbs AGAIN, so we expect it will fit into a 99 or 103 slot. We just don't know how yet....


----------



## smiddy

Some news, not exactly what I was waiting for, but still news none the less. Thanks!


----------



## Sixto

Nothing new with DirecTV with the usual Friday FCC Filing, but Pegasus did get their BSS approval at 115°:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2733A1.pdf​
Happy Holidays to all ...


----------



## Tom Robertson

lwilli201 said:


> It would appear that DIRECTV RB-5 has not even been contracted out to be built. It is interesting that a new sat at 118.4 was in the plans as late as January 2008. This would seem to reinforce the notion that Directv wants to consolidate all sats in the 99-103 area. But who knows for sure.


At this stage in the awarding of a new orbital slots, it is not surprising that DIRECTV has not yet selected a manufacturer. And definitely won't award a final contract until the orbital slot is granted.

The milestones give DIRECTV 12 months to select and contract the build after the grant is made.

Merry Christmas!
Tom


----------



## doctor j

Arianespace successfully placed HotBird 9 & W2M sats in GTO for Eutelsat this evening.
If I understood correctly this was 28 consecutive successful missions for Arianespace, ? 6 or 8 this year.
Given the recent concerns for ILS and SeaLaunch (both of which have good overall success rates) it is GREAT to see launch reliablity of this magnitude.

Remember however you are only as good as your present event, so one failure taints perception for years.

Hopefully whoever is chosen for D-12, we can EXPECT success.

Doctor j


----------



## hdtvfan0001

doctor j said:


> Arianespace successfully placed HotBird 9 & W2M sats in GTO for Eutelsat this evening.
> If I understood correctly this was 28 consecutive successful missions for Arianespace, ? 6 or 8 this year.
> Given the recent concerns for ILS and SeaLaunch (both of which have good overall success rates) it is GREAT to see launch reliablity of this magnitude.
> 
> Remember however you are only as good as your present event, so one failure taints perception for years.
> 
> Hopefully whoever is chosen for D-12, we can EXPECT success.
> 
> Doctor j


Failure is not an option.


----------



## lwilli201

Tom Robertson said:


> At this stage in the awarding of a new orbital slots, it is not surprising that DIRECTV has not yet selected a manufacturer. And definitely won't award a final contract until the orbital slot is granted.
> 
> The milestones give DIRECTV 12 months to select and contract the build after the grant is made.
> 
> Merry Christmas!
> Tom


I guess where I am confused is why Directv made this request in the first place and how it was to fit into their future plans.


----------



## tkrandall

Sixto said:


> From yesterday's FCC Filings: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2699A1.pdf"On December 9, 2008, DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC withdrew its pending applications for authority to launch and operate a 17/24 GHz BSS satellite system at the nominal 119 degrees W.L. orbital location."​
> Here's the previous information on BSS Satellite RB-5 from January 2008: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141471
> 
> Still appear to have BSS RB-1 at 99°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141474
> 
> And BSS RB-2 at 103°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141476
> 
> And BSS RB-3 at 107°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141467
> 
> And BSS RB-4 at 111°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-141467


I just hope that whatever they put on these birds they will use the most eastern slots for eastern markets, and the most western slots for western markets. For my market (Atlanta area), I hope content will all come from RB-1 at 99w or RB-2 at 103w. 107w will likely be a problem for me due to lower elevation angle and trees, and forget about 111w. 110 and 119 are out for me now.


----------



## evan_s

1) those are a long ways out. Once they are even granted the right to use those slots they still have years to build and launch a sat.

2) My personal guess is that only 99 and 103 will be used for delivering core programing. DirecTV is making a very conscious and concerted effort to consolidate their core programing into the 99-103 arc and keep it small for the exact reason you mentioned. There are a fair number of other things that 107 and 111 could be used for besides core programing including Backhauling, specific locals and even international content..


----------



## GregLee

tkrandall said:


> I just hope that whatever they put on these birds they will use the most eastern slots for eastern markets, and the most western slots for western markets.


Why do you hope that? I'm in the far west, yet I receive from the same slots as you -- 99/101/103, but not 110/119.


----------



## tkrandall

elevation angle to 110 and 119 is poor in the eastern u.s.


----------



## P Smith

tkrandall said:


> elevation angle to 110 and 119 is *poor *in the eastern u.s.



Technically meaningless word applied to the issues.

Could be angles more appropriate ?


----------



## Sixto

Chase Carey (DirecTV CEO) few minutes ago at Citi conference when asked about D12: "launch middle of '09"


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Chase Carey (DirecTV CEO) few minutes ago at Citi conference when asked about D12: "launch middle of '09"


I still really, really wonder about the launch provider. None of the launch calendars I keep up with have announced anything for Directv, and I've seen lists for all of the major launch services companies out through 2010 and some into '11. Unless they're going out into left field and hiring the Chinese, I don't know how they'll fit it into existing schedules. There is currently a big old "TBD" in the 2009 SeaLaunch schedule for XM 5 but as I noted before, the combined SiriusXM may be re-thinking all their future plans at this point. I also just don't see how ILS could fit D12 into the announced Proton schedule unless Directv is willing to pay a premium for the launch to allow ILS to reschedule some of their other missions.

I guess we'll know when the launch contract is announced.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I still really, really wonder about the launch provider. None of the launch calendars I keep up with have announced anything for Directv, and I've seen lists for all of the major launch services companies out through 2010 and some into '11. Unless they're going out into left field and hiring the Chinese, I don't know how they'll fit it into existing schedules. There is currently a big old "TBD" in the 2009 SeaLaunch schedule for XM 5 but as I noted before, the combined SiriusXM may be re-thinking all their future plans at this point. I also just don't see how ILS could fit D12 into the announced Proton schedule unless Directv is willing to pay a premium for the launch to allow ILS to reschedule some of their other missions.
> 
> I guess we'll know when the launch contract is announced.


Yep, agree. They had been saying late-2009. In chat recently it was "2009". But Chase clearly said "middle 09" when asked this morning.

Nothing in any FCC Filing that I can find. And I look every night.


----------



## LarryFlowers

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see some Satellites with launch schedules become "unscheduled" in the current economic climate...delayed til things get better. Could provide DirecTV with a earlier window.



Sixto said:


> Yep, agree. They had been saying late-2009. In chat recently it was "2009". But Chase clearly said "middle 09" when asked this morning.
> 
> Nothing in any FCC Filing that I can find. And I look every night.


----------



## Sixto

LarryFlowers said:


> Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to see some Satellites with launch schedules become "unscheduled" in the current economic climate...delayed til things get better. Could provide DirecTV with a earlier window.


could be. he did say "middle". we'll see ...


----------



## tkrandall

P Smith said:


> Technically meaningless word applied to the issues.
> 
> Could be angles more appropriate ?


Here are some values. I live near Atlanta. My elevation angle for line of sight to 101W is about 47 degrees. To 110W it is 42 degrees, and to 119W it is about 36 degrees if I recall correctly. 47 vs. 42 or 36 makes a big difference in terms of vertically clearing trees when we have so many relatively large pines and hardwoods like hickory and oak all over the place in this part of the country.


----------



## P Smith

Sorry, but using a word "poor" doesn't make real sense - as to your EL numbers - on West Coast ppl had same and 14° for 61.5W. They are *good *number, not *poor*.  Better could be only in TX .


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok, they are "poor look" angles in that the likelihood of success is lower than desired. Quit bustin' his chops. We all knew what he meant.


----------



## smiddy

I think this thread is my inspiration for hope for DirecTV and more HD. I surely hope that DirecTV-12 gets on a launch schedule soon.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I think this thread is my inspiration for hope for DirecTV and more HD. I surely hope that DirecTV-12 gets on a launch schedule soon.


If the dates bounced around are anywhere near accurate...we should hear something perhaps in the Feb-March timeframe.


----------



## LameLefty

I wonder what the big mystery is? The Sea-Launch, Arianespace and ILS calendars have launches well out into '10 and starting to list '11 launches by now. I really wonder why there's not even an announced carrier yet?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I wonder what the big mystery is? The Sea-Launch, Arianespace and ILS calendars have launches well out into '10 and starting to list '11 launches by now. I really wonder why there's not even an announced carrier yet?


Perhaps something around the firm committment on D12's final architecture, final position (needs approval), and their finalized actual plan for a corresponding date to launch...?

Right now...its a "floating" date.


----------



## doctor j

Probably totally off the wall BUT
Sealaunch was designed to carry two complete launch vehicles and do two launches while "on station" in the mid pacific.
They've never said anything about trying that but would be a way to "squeeze" a launch in.

Doctor j


----------



## Tom Robertson

doctor j said:


> Probably totally off the wall BUT
> Sealaunch was designed to carry two complete launch vehicles and do two launches while "on station" in the mid pacific.
> They've never said anything about trying that but would be a way to "squeeze" a launch in.
> 
> Doctor j


While SeaLaunch is definitely designed to do that (up to 3 launch vehicles on station), they tried it (in practice, I think) and decided that the transfer from the commander to the launch platform was not feasible.

Peace,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Guess, Chinese will take it any time .


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> While SeaLaunch is definitely designed to do that (up to 3 launch vehicles on station), they tried it (in practice, I think) and decided that the transfer from the commander to the launch platform was not feasible.
> 
> Peace,
> Tom


All I know is I like watching the launch. and look forward to seeing D12 launch.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> While SeaLaunch is definitely designed to do that (up to 3 launch vehicles on station), they tried it (in practice, I think) and decided that the transfer from the commander to the launch platform was not feasible.
> 
> Peace,
> Tom


It was my understanding that the hangar on the launch platform can accommodate a second Zenit; they would only need to transfer one from Sea-Launch _Commander_ to _Odyssey_ if they sortied with three. Perhaps I was wrong?

On the other hand, I double-checked my lists and the XM-5 satellite that is _TBD_ on the calendars, still, is a Sea-Launch slot. SiriusXM stock is under 14 cents a share right now - it's quite possible they won't be needing that slot. :grin:


----------



## doctor j

Tom Robertson said:


> While SeaLaunch is definitely designed to do that (up to 3 launch vehicles on station), they tried it (in practice, I think) and decided that the transfer from the commander to the launch platform was not feasible.
> 
> Peace,
> Tom


Looking at the progress pictures of prior launches, they load the rocket/payload and transfer it to Odessy from the Commander at the dock.
Granted at the dock not open water but it does go from commander to odessy.

http://www.boeing.com/special/sea-l...nsfer_platform/directv_transfer_platform.html

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

We were told unofficially "Proton" and "2009" on November 7th. We now wait for the official announcement ... 

It could have changed (or will change), but we did hear it from a VERY reliable source in November ...


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> We were told unofficially "Proton" and "2009" on November 7th. We now wait for the official announcement ...
> 
> It could have changed (or will change), but we did hear it from a VERY reliable source in November ...


Hmm. Looking further into my crystal ball, I see a plan for "Sirius FM-5" listed as a Proton/Briz M schedule for the second quarter on the ILS manifest. Re-reading what I already posted this morning about the current stock price of SiriusXM, maybe that's where they plan to slot it in? A Proton/Briz M combo launched D10 after all.


----------



## Button Pusher

smiddy said:


> I think this thread is my inspiration for hope for DirecTV and more HD. I surely hope that DirecTV-12 gets on a launch schedule soon.


 I agree!


----------



## dwrats_56

If this is DirecTV 12. It looks like there may be some delay with their application.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-87A1.pdf

IV. ORDERING CLUASES
13. Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED, that the DIRECTV application for a 17/24 GHz BSS
satellite to be operated at the 102.825° W.L. Orbit Location IS DEFECTIVE and must be
returned to the applicant.
14. IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that the petition for declaratory ruling filed by
Spectrum Five LLC is GRANTED IN PART, to the extent indicated above.
FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION


----------



## LameLefty

dwrats_56 said:


> If this is DirecTV 12. It looks like there may be some delay with their application.
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-87A1.pdf
> 
> IV. ORDERING CLUASES
> 13. Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED, that the DIRECTV application for a 17/24 GHz BSS
> satellite to be operated at the 102.825° W.L. Orbit Location IS DEFECTIVE and must be
> returned to the applicant.
> 14. IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that the petition for declaratory ruling filed by
> Spectrum Five LLC is GRANTED IN PART, to the extent indicated above.
> FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION


It's not D12. D12 is not a BSS satellite (though is might carry an experimental BSS payload like D11 had).


----------



## Smthkd

OHHHHHhH, that was a low blow by Spectrum Five. "They" assumed Directv's technicians are wrong about their propsed BSS satellite power delivery and convinced the FCC that Directv was not within FCC regulation and that the new sat proposed for 102.8 would interfere with other sats. After the FCC agreed and pronounced Directv's app "Defective" the sneeky bastards come back and say they are next in line for a sat in the 103 slot and ask for FCC consideration! LOL! How low can you get!!!!!!

Thanksfully this is not for Directv12 but for future BSS payload satellite Directv wanted for future technolgy!


----------



## evan_s

Smthkd said:


> OHHHHHhH, that was a low blow by Spectrum Five. "They" assumed Directv's technicians are wrong about their propsed BSS satellite power delivery and convinced the FCC that Directv was not within FCC regulation and that the new sat proposed for 102.8 would interfere with other sats. After the FCC agreed and pronounced Directv's app "Defective" the sneeky bastards come back and say they are next in line for a sat in the 103 slot and ask for FCC consideration! LOL! How low can you get!!!!!!
> 
> Thanksfully this is not for Directv12 but for future BSS payload satellite Directv wanted for future technolgy!


It's interesting and having read through it several times I think I understand the basics.

Roughly Spectrum Five said that DirecTV planned to operate their sat at a higher power level than allowed and could cause too much interference. They pointed out that DirecTV calculated some loss due to the atmosphere in their power density calculations which essentially artificially lowered their power density. DirecTV responded that they thought this was fine since the regulations use 2 different terms "free space conditions" and "clear sky conditions." with different meanings and even if you remove those factors that DirecTVs power level was still below the guidelines. Spectrum Five replied that it disagreed that they where still under the power level and Spectrum Five states that DIRECTV's reliance on atmospheric loss obscures the fact that DIRECTV's satellite will be operated at a PFD level 13 percent greater than that permitted by the Commission's rules. The FCC ultimately decided that Spectrum Five was correct and DirecTV would be over the power level with out the loss from atmospheric conditions they included in their calculation and that said losses couldn't be counted on to prevent interference since they were transient and may not be present at all. As a result the FCC denied DirecTV's application.

Luckily this has nothing to do with D12 and is an application for a future sat that they haven't even started building yet. This is for stuff that is probably 3+ years out from being deployed since approvals haven't even been granted let alone construction of satellites or launch planning.


----------



## dwrats_56

LameLefty said:


> It's not D12. D12 is not a BSS satellite (though is might carry an experimental BSS payload like D11 had).


Thanks for the clarification LameLefty.

I haven't focused on all the details about Satellite TV like I should.

I just enjoy the growth of D*'s system.


----------



## Stealth87

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If the dates bounced around are anywhere near accurate...we should hear something perhaps in the Feb-March timeframe.


Can we then expect an August time frame for the Sat to be turned on like last year?


----------



## Sixto

Stealth87 said:


> Can we then expect an August time frame for the Sat to be turned on like last year?


Not a peep so far. We need a launch provider, a launch date, and the sat will go "live" 2-4 months after launch. We know nothing so far including the slot.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Not a peep so far. We need a launch provider, a launch date, and the sat will go "live" 2-4 months after launch. We know nothing so far including the slot.


Nope, not a peep. Strikes me as very, very odd.

However, both XM and Sirius had slots reserved with launch providers for mid-2009, one with Sea-Launch on Zenit and one with ILS for ride on a Proton/Briz-M from Baikonaur. I hate to sound the doom/gloom alarm, but the combined SiriusXM company's stock closed at 11 cents a share yesterday.  I don't see how that company will be able to pony up the $120M+ it will cost to launch both satellites, even assuming the satellites themselves are already paid for (which they may well not be).

I _suspect_ Directv has negotiated to take one of those slots, but of course I don't know anything with certainty.


----------



## HDRoberts

ILS can do a launch every 6-8 weeks. Given they don't seem to be in a hurry to launch the next sat (next launch is in March. It's already been 5 weeks since their last launch), I'd say there may be 7-8 missions next year. It appears 6 or so are taking shape, from the always reliable anik at Nasaspaceflight:

March – Eutelsat W2A (next launch)
spring – ProtoStar 2
second quarter – Sirius FM-5 
second half of year – Nimiq 5 (For Dish Network at 72.7)
fourth quarter – MSV-1
fourth quarter – Arabsat-5A (May be Ariane 5)

So, they should have space. They maybe competing with Dish Network, though, with the Echostar 14 satellite (going to 119). However, there may be room for both. 

As mentioned, XM 5 was scheduled for Sea Launch. However, they're doing extensive renovations to their equipment and have very few launches schedule, relining mainly on their Land Launch subsidiary (although Dish and Direct sats are too heavy for this). For all we know, the XM mission is scrubbed.


----------



## Sixto

HDRoberts said:


> ILS can do a launch every 6-8 weeks ...


To summarize ... we're heard ... "Proton" and "2009" on 11/7/2008 ... then "middle 2009" on 1/7/2009 ... that's all we know ... post#1 will always have the latest.

My money is still on "Proton" but anything could have changed since November.


----------



## HDRoberts

Sixto said:


> To summarize ... we're heard ... "Proton" and "2009" on 11/7/2008 ... then "middle 2009" on 1/7/2009 ... that's all we know ... post#1 will always have the latest.
> 
> My money is still on "Proton" but anything could have changed since November.


Not disagreeing with you. ILS = Proton, of course.

It just has to fit in with their other launches as well, including a possible Dish Network launch. Certainly there seems to be room in the second and particularly the third quarter in the ILS schedule, which both fit middle 2009.


----------



## Sixto

HDRoberts said:


> Not disagreeing with you. ILS = Proton, of course.
> 
> It just has to fit in with their other launches as well, including a possible Dish Network launch. Certainly there seems to be room in the second and particularly the third quarter in the ILS schedule, which both fit middle 2009.


Yep, certainly agree.

Just curious if not announced because of market competitive reasons?, time needed to re-configure D12 for a different destination location?, awaiting official launch slot to open up?, or some other reason? ... not a shred of official data. Would have expected an FCC filing by now, which leads me to think it's something with the destination location being finalized but just guessing.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Nope, not a peep. Strikes me as very, very odd.
> 
> However, both XM and Sirius had slots reserved with launch providers for mid-2009, one with Sea-Launch on Zenit and one with ILS for ride on a Proton/Briz-M from Baikonaur. I hate to sound the doom/gloom alarm, but the combined SiriusXM company's stock closed at 11 cents a share yesterday.  I don't see how that company will be able to pony up the $120M+ it will cost to launch both satellites, even assuming the satellites themselves are already paid for (which they may well not be).
> 
> I _suspect_ Directv has negotiated to take one of those slots, but of course I don't know anything with certainty.


I thinnk you are highlighting something that has to occur during these tough times, negotiating ways to help one another out. I'd be surprised with your assertion, if it comes true, but I think it is a viable plan. Perhaps you should write DirecTV to see if they can benifit from these times.


----------



## LameLefty

Smiddy - the thing is, absent my assertion, there is no reason to not have something publicly listed with the launch providers. I mean, ILS is proud (and rightfully so!) of their incredibly crowded launch manifest! Unless there's something unusual going on with the launch provider for D12, there's really no reason why someone should NOT have it listed on a schedule along with a notional date. In early 2006, for instance, D10 was already listed as a 2007 payload on the ILS manifest. 

So there's something unusual going on here, though of course none of us know exactly what, nor the reasons for it. Or if there are lurkers who do know, they can't say.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> To summarize ... we're heard ... "Proton" and "2009" on 11/7/2008 ... then "middle 2009" on 1/7/2009 ... that's all we know ... post#1 will always have the latest.
> 
> My money is still on "Proton" but anything could have changed since November.


...and it'll ultimately be driven by"

Reliablity (Risk factor)
Timing
Cost

What has changed to some degree is any "urgency", yet not having D12 up there is also lost revenue potential...so there may not be "urgency" so much as "continued value" in moving forward.

I'm smelling some kind of D12 launch plan info some time in the next 30-60 days....or at least I think that's what I'm smelling...


----------



## lwilli201

How are the Directv sats expected to fair through the upcoming solar activity that is due to peak in 2012? Could this coming event be slowing sat launches until there is more information on survivability and possible modification to the sats to better protect them from solar radiation? I would be very supprised if all of this is not being taken into consideration.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> Smiddy - the thing is, absent my assertion, there is no reason to not have something publicly listed with the launch providers. I mean, ILS is proud (and rightfully so!) of their incredibly crowded launch manifest! Unless there's something unusual going on with the launch provider for D12, there's really no reason why someone should NOT have it listed on a schedule along with a notional date. In early 2006, for instance, D10 was already listed as a 2007 payload on the ILS manifest.
> 
> So there's something unusual going on here, though of course none of us know exactly what, nor the reasons for it. Or if there are lurkers who do know, they can't say.


Is there any 2009 manifest from Chinese launch agency ?


----------



## LameLefty

lwilli201 said:


> How are the Directv sats expected to fair through the upcoming solar activity that is due to peak in 2012? Could this coming event be slowing sat launches until there is more information on survivability and possible modification to the sats to better protect them from solar radiation? I would be very supprised if all of this is not being taken into consideration.


Nah. GSO comsats have been around for a good long time. Solar maximums have happened on a regular cycle and spacecraft designers have gotten lots of experience in designing rad-hardened electronics and systems.

And if this cycle turns into some kind of monster that can damages satellites, we'll have more problems than TV down here on earth, too.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Is there any 2009 manifest from Chinese launch agency ?


All Chinese payloads except for one Indonesian comsat and one for Laos. Including a couple of Shenzhou missions which are scheduled to rendezvous and dock, apparently. Of course with the Chinese emulating the Cold War-era Soviet style of space mission publicity, who knows what they'll actually admit what happens on those missions.

But to answer the question directly, no D12.


----------



## lwilli201

LameLefty said:


> Nah. GSO comsats have been around for a good long time. Solar maximums have happened on a regular cycle and spacecraft designers have gotten lots of experience in designing rad-hardened electronics and systems.
> 
> And if this cycle turns into some kind of monster that can damages satellites, we'll have more problems than TV down here on earth, too.


Glad to hear they are ready.  I guess you need to take all the hand wringing from the doomsday bunch with a grain of salt.


----------



## HDRoberts

LameLefty said:


> Smiddy - the thing is, absent my assertion, there is no reason to not have something publicly listed with the launch providers. I mean, ILS is proud (and rightfully so!) of their incredibly crowded launch manifest! Unless there's something unusual going on with the launch provider for D12, there's really no reason why someone should NOT have it listed on a schedule along with a notional date. In early 2006, for instance, D10 was already listed as a 2007 payload on the ILS manifest.
> 
> So there's something unusual going on here, though of course none of us know exactly what, nor the reasons for it. Or if there are lurkers who do know, they can't say.


Where is there an official ILS manifest?

Thing is, yes, ILS is very proud of all the launches they have booked. But they have not, at least in the past year, published a list of all satellites they have booked to put up. The only real information is the stuff pieced together from various sources such as I posted earlier. They have many more in the books for the next few years, but many are not known.

So I see nothing weird going on. Just there haven't been many leaks as to who is going up when.

One possible reason not to publish a manifest is schedule compensation. Failures like AMC-14 pushed their schedule back. They probably would not like to reveal that some sats have been given less a delay than other sats.


----------



## LameLefty

HDRoberts said:


> Where is there an official ILS manifest?


Check above my avatar. I know some people. 

For a launch that ought to be sometime within the next 5 - 7 months, it's very weird that it hasn't even leaked as a "TBD" yet. The approximate launch date for D10 leaked out well over a year in advance.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Check above my avatar. I know some people.
> 
> For a launch that ought to be sometime within the next 5 - 7 months, it's very weird that it hasn't even leaked as a "TBD" yet. The approximate launch date for D10 leaked out well over a year in advance.


Those were my very same thoughts earlier....I am not a rocket scientist, but I did (actually) stay at a Holiday Inn Express this past week...


----------



## inkahauts

One thing to remember... I think Direct is good at hiding things sometimes... 

Remember, we didn't even know they where going to be testing BSS on D11 until it was in the air and moving in the wrong direction.. at least we thought it was...


----------



## Tele-TV

mandarin direct world direct question

Searching turned back nothing. Thanks. 

I remember reading a post, or postS from some fellow members saying that there is rumor that they might move the World Direct package (Mandarind for me to be specific), to another sat so you wouldn't need 2 dishes. Can anyone help me please with rumor(s)/info? Thanks.

You guys are the best!


----------



## Piratefan98

I understand that Nostradamus predicted there'd be no D12 launch during 2009. I believe him. 

Jeff


----------



## HDRoberts

LameLefty said:


> Check above my avatar. I know some people.
> 
> For a launch that ought to be sometime within the next 5 - 7 months, it's very weird that it hasn't even leaked as a "TBD" yet. The approximate launch date for D10 leaked out well over a year in advance.


Well, good you know some people. Hopefully you can help keep DBStalk just as informed on Dish launches as well.

My point was, there are a lot of MIA ILS launches. It's strange, but D12 is not unique in not having a tentative launch time frame. As I mentioned above, Echostar 14 is in a similar boat, though it may be a little more than 5-7 months out.


----------



## LameLefty

HDRoberts said:


> Well, good you know some people. Hopefully you can help keep DBStalk just as informed on Dish launches as well.


I frankly don't give the proverbial tinker's damn about Dish launches. Although I do admit to a certain schadenfreude every few years when another one fails or fails to make its proper orbit.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I frankly don't give the proverbial tinker's damn about Dish launches. Although I do admit to a certain schadenfreude every few years when another one fails or fails to make its proper orbit.


+1 Billion


----------



## HDRoberts

LameLefty said:


> I frankly don't give the proverbial tinker's damn about Dish launches. Although I do admit to a certain schadenfreude every few years when another one fails or fails to make its proper orbit.


Then I guess I'll start hoping that D12 blows up in the upper atmosphere. 

Would it hurt you to say "hey, I heard E14 is launching in such-and-such month"?

If DBS mods ever wondered why Dish users are more apt to the "other" site, I think you can see why. Most Dish subs don't wish bad things for DirecTV. Competition is GOOD. It brings us lower prices and more HD.

I also think it is unbelievably stupid to blame Dish for AMC-14, given the same damn company and rocket launched D10 and will probably launch D12.


----------



## lwilli201

HDRoberts said:


> Then I guess I'll start hoping that D12 blows up in the upper atmosphere.
> 
> Would it hurt you to say "hey, I heard E14 is launching in such-and-such month"?
> 
> If DBS mods ever wondered why Dish users are more apt to the "other" site, I think you can see why. Most Dish subs don't wish bad things for DirecTV. Competition is GOOD. It brings us lower prices and more HD.
> 
> I also think it is unbelievably stupid to blame Dish for AMC-14, given the same damn company and rocket launched D10 and will probably launch D12.


As a Directv sub, I was disappointed that AMC-14 failed. First, I am still awed at the technology of communications sats and the systems to deliver them into space. Second, the successful launch of AMC-14 may have put a bigger fire under Directv to expand their capacity. The lose of that much money and state of the art equipment is never good.


----------



## LameLefty

This thread is about D12 and has turned to a discussion about why the launch provider and anticipated date are not yet known. It has nothing to do with Dish sats or launches aside from your comment which brought up that topic. Er, why are you in this thread again? 

Oh, and I didn't say I wished anything _bad_ upon Dish. The word I used to describe the emotion was picked very carefully.


----------



## HDRoberts

LameLefty said:


> This thread is about D12 and has turned to a discussion about why the launch provider and anticipated date are not yet known. It has nothing to do with Dish sats or launches aside from your comment which brought up that topic. Er, why are you in this thread again?
> 
> Oh, and I didn't say I wished anything _bad_ upon Dish. The word I used to describe the emotion was picked very carefully.


I said keep DBSTalk informed, not this thread. If you haven't noticed, there _*is*_ a Dish section on this website. It was just a side comment. It would be nice if someone with inside information about either DBS company who is a member of a website devoted to DBS would be kind enough to post that information, rather than holding back out of dislike the other provider.

I'm in this thread because I am interested in future satellite TV launches. I may be a Dish sub, but am contract free, and would be willing to make the jump if DirecTV would make some changes. I'm also interested because competition drives business and innovation. Also, whenever we see a D12 launch date, that's a time frame I know Dish won't be able to launch anything on the same service.

And I would say that a thread on the status of D12 is certainly the place to discuss the anticipated launch date of said satellite.

Oh well, off to the more HD thread to experience my own schadenfreude


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HDRoberts said:


> And I would say that a thread on the status of D12 is certainly the place to discuss the anticipated launch date of said satellite.


You'd think so....


> Oh well, off to the more HD thread to experience my own schadenfreude


...I've heard that word 100 times when I was a kid growing up in my german parent's household...no reason for anyone to feel offended...dismayed, maybe....but not offended. :lol:

Hopefully, we'll get some more info on D12's intended launch logistics within the next 50 days or so (which is my belief).


----------



## Tom Robertson

<Moderator Hat on>
Let us not discuss DBSTalk's membership and what they choose to cover or not cover. This is way too far afield from this thread. LameLefty is not the only source in the internet world, there are a couple of excellent launch manifests out there. (Several members have posts those sources over the years.)

So back to topic :backtotop

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Some sources now showing late September for Directv 12 on a Proton-M/Briz-M from Baikonur, though I have not confirmed this independently.

Sixto - your source was correct, apparently.


----------



## RAD

LameLefty said:


> Some sources now showing late September for Directv 12 on a Proton-M/Briz-M from Baikonur, though I have not confirmed this independently.
> 
> Sixto - your source was correct, apparently.


Isn't that later then what the D* suits have been saying about when D12 would be available?


----------



## smiddy

RAD said:


> Isn't that later then what the D* suits have been saying about when D12 would be available?


I think they said something like first half of the year, so something must have precipitated the change. At least it is launching...


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Some sources now showing late September for Directv 12 on a Proton-M/Briz-M from Baikonur, though I have not confirmed this independently.
> 
> Sixto - your source was correct, apparently.


Cool. Yep, "end of September - DirecTV 12 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur ".

nice.

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html


----------



## Tom Robertson

From Anik at Nasaspaceflight.com who quoted: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html, DIRECTV 12 is, as Sixto reported, September from Baikonur. Get your passports and visas ready... 

Cheers,
Tom

Edit: The joy of cross posting. 

Good job, as always, Sixto.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So its launching in September? That means we don't see any new HD channels until December or January of 2010! Unless they shorten the testing time.


----------



## Sixto

theratpatrol said:


> So its launching in September? That means we don't see any new HD channels until December or January of 2010! Unless they shorten the testing time.


D10 went up from same location July 7th. "Live" 3rd week September.

We're probably looking at Thanksgiving-Christmas timeframe, assuming no changes and no BSS testing like D11. Play it safe, Q1-2010.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Thanks for the update Sixto!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> D10 went up from same location July 7th. "Live" 3rd week September.
> 
> We're probably looking at Thanksgiving-Christmas timeframe, assuming no changes and no BSS testing like D11. Play it safe, Q1-2010.


Yes and that has me worried. Some on here have speculated that we won't see many more HD channels until D12 goes up. That will give cable and E* plenty of time to catch up and maybe surpass D*, unless of course they start taking down some more PPV's.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> D10 went up from same location July 7th. "Live" 3rd week September.
> 
> We're probably looking at Thanksgiving-Christmas timeframe, assuming no changes and no BSS testing like D11. Play it safe, Q1-2010.


Thanks Sixto....I just talked to my contact this morning, who told me virtually the same thing...they are trying to get things in place for the "holiday season" to launch more HD and HD LIL channels "prior to year end", or so I was told.

If the launch date doesn't move any further, a late November or early December set of HD channel startup dates seems feasible.

One last tidbit..I was also told that SeaLaunch was the first option, but the timing wasn't there that they needed, so they went to "Plan B".


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks Sixto....I just talked to my contact this morning, who told me virtually the same thing...they are trying to get things in place for the "holiday season" to launch more HD and HD LIL channels "prior to year end", or so I was told.
> 
> If the launch date doesn't move any further, a late November or early December set of HD channel startup dates seems feasible.
> 
> One last tidbit..I was also told that SeaLaunch was the first option, but the timing wasn't there that they needed, so they went to "Plan B".


yep, still much time between now and then but great to see a stake in the ground.

we need other proton launches to occur without a hitch. the D12 launch to go well. all testing to go well. maybe some more (or not) BSS testing.

but as Tom mentioned, let's get the visas and start the journey!


----------



## evan_s

Well we've got a launch date and provider now we need a filing with the orbital slot =)


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> Well we've got a launch date and provider now we need a filing with the orbital slot =)


And any indication of there's going to be another experimental BSS payload like D11 has.


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> Well we've got a launch date and provider now we need a filing with the orbital slot =)


i check every day


----------



## jefbal99

Isn't this worthy of a note on the front page?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> Isn't this worthy of a note on the front page?


I think so too...


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Isn't this worthy of a note on the front page?


the web-site referenced is not "official" but very good point of reference.

post#1 was updated last night.


----------



## Tom Robertson

russianspaceweb is close enough, so with thanks to the sources to finding the info and jefbal99 for the suggestion, I've put it on the front page.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> russianspaceweb is close enough, so with thanks to the sources to finding the info and jefbal99 for the suggestion, I've put it on the front page.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Just watch the new postings about this "launch" even more discussion!


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> russianspaceweb is close enough, so with thanks to the sources to finding the info and jefbal99 for the suggestion, I've put it on the front page.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


cool.


----------



## jefbal99

Tom Robertson said:


> russianspaceweb is close enough, so with thanks to the sources to finding the info and jefbal99 for the suggestion, I've put it on the front page.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Woo-hoo


----------



## smiddy

Excellent, now let's get these guys who're doing it to update their websites...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Excellent news! Keep up the good work Sixto!


----------



## Sixto

AirRocker said:


> Excellent news! Keep up the good work Sixto!


I'll throw a little love towards LameLefty as well. 

I've been checking every day but LameLefty's post triggered me to check last night.

Good news.


----------



## razorback9926

Digital cable has the upper hand since they can carry tons of local HD channels. D* has to carry locals for every market, whereas cable only carries for one market. My cable company's digital service even carries many FM channels as a bonus. Digital cable is still $20/month more than D*, but if they ever get competitive with price, D* could be in trouble. I'm not sure how D* can fend off this problem much longer.


----------



## LameLefty

razorback9926 said:


> I'm not sure how D* can fend off this problem much longer.


Two parts to this answer:

1. NFL Sunday Ticket
2. D12


----------



## Sixto

razorback9926 said:


> Digital cable has the upper hand since they can carry tons of local HD channels. D* has to carry locals for every market, whereas cable only carries for one market. My cable company's digital service even carries many FM channels as a bonus. Digital cable is still $20/month more than D*, but if they ever get competitive with price, D* could be in trouble. I'm not sure how D* can fend off this problem much longer.


Very complex area to discuss here and not on-topic but ...

DirecTV currently has 6GHz of bandwidth in the home. Cable has usually less the 850MHz. Yes, SDV helps.

DirecTV has an HD DVR that natively uses the 6GHz of bandwidth. Cable has a crummy DVR, and TiVoHD is somewhat kludgey with cablecards and the tuning adapter.

FiOS is the only real threat but not national and their DVR platform is considered by some to be inferior to DirecTV and TiVoHD.

Personally, I have all three in my geography. DirecTV is #1, FiOS is a close 2nd, and Cable is a very, very distant 3rd. The difference between 1st and 2nd is a) NFL Sunday Ticket, b) DVR, c) creative HD Sports programming, d) love DBSTalk!

Now back to topic ... many other threads to discuss this ...


----------



## tkrandall

Like others, I'd like to know:

1) which orbital slot
2) stacking plan and other dish/LNB type implications

Maybe my Slimline 3 LNB will need to become a "Slimline 3+" LNB if they put it at 101?


----------



## man_rob

Sixto said:


> Very complex area to discuss here and not on-topic but ...
> 
> DirecTV currently has 6GHz of bandwidth in the home. Cable has usually less the 850MHz. Yes, SDV helps.
> 
> DirecTV has an HD DVR that natively uses the 6GHz of bandwidth. Cable has a crummy DVR, and TiVoHD is somewhat kludgey with cablecards and the tuning adapter.
> 
> FiOS is the only real threat but not national and their DVR platform is considered by some to be inferior to DirecTV and TiVoHD.
> 
> Personally, I have all three in my geography. DirecTV is #1, FiOS is a close 2nd, and Cable is a very, very distant 3rd. The difference between 1st and 2nd is a) NFL Sunday Ticket, b) DVR, c) creative HD Sports programming, d) love DBSTalk!
> 
> Now back to topic ... many other threads to discuss this ...


What about Dish? Didn't they just successfully launch another satellite? And their DVRs are decent as well.


----------



## evan_s

tkrandall said:


> Like others, I'd like to know:
> 
> 1) which orbital slot
> 2) stacking plan and other dish/LNB type implications
> 
> Maybe my Slimline 3 LNB will need to become a "Slimline 3+" LNB if they put it at 101?


We can't say yet but there has been a bit of speculation earlier in the thread.

101 is extremely unlikely because it would require major changes to use it. New LNBs would be needed. A new stack plan would be needed. All in all lots of work to put it there. On top of that Ka at 101 is already in use. D8 and D9 at 101 provide both Ku and Ka capabilities using the Ka for backhauling to the uplink centers. EG all the locals are sent up to 101 via ka and back down to the uplink centers before being uplinked on their correct spot beams.

There are 2 likely possibilities.

1) They change the specs of the sat before launch to allow it to operate in Ka Hi and either colocate it with one of the spaceway sats or stick it in a slot and move both spaceways to the other slot. This would require a change out before launching and should provide the most available space for Conus transponders. We already know they added a BSS test package on D11 so some changes before launch are definitely possible.

2) They colocate it with D10 or D11. The current setup has 14 national transponders and 10 spot beams. This is noticeably more spot beams than in use at 101 or 119 (5 or 4 respectively). We also know from D10 that they can use additional transponder frequencies as conus instead of spot beams since D10 ran 16 for a while until D11 was launch. Cutting back to 4 or 5 transponders for the spot beams would allow 19 or 20 total conus transponders shared between the 1 sats and would be possible but would require some optimization of their spot beam patterns and frequency reuse which should be possible.

Assuming it's located at 99 or 103 in either Ka Hi or Lo no changes to the stacking plan or new LNB would be needed since we already receiver signals from those slots.

Personally since they are only saying 50 more conus channels from D12 the second option is my guess since it lines up with them not being able to add as many new conus transponders due to sharing the orbital slot.


----------



## harsh

tkrandall said:


> 1) which orbital slot


This is almost certainly 99W or 103W. Placing it anywhere else would require replacement of all existing Ku/Ka LNB assemblies (assuming the goal is to increase CONUS HD capability).


> 2) stacking plan and other dish/LNB type implications


I'm betting that they can't substantially change the stack plan without having to swap out the multiswitches too. Was it ever determined if the Zinwell and SWM switches could be updated?

I'm not sure what prompted it, but I have this nagging feeling that D12 is going to replace one of the Spaceway satellites and add to the CONUS capacity.

Aren't they only using half of the Ka bands? I really need to bookmark Tibber's research.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> I really need to bookmark Tibber's research.


Tibber: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


----------



## Grentz

Nice update, a long while off but we will forget for awhile and then it will seem quick when it is launching


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Tibber: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


Thank you!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Grentz said:


> Nice update, a long while off but we will forget for awhile and then it will seem quick when it is launching


That time will be here before you know it...and the "New HD Channels on D12" anticipation posts will be all over the place here....:lol:


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> 1) They change the specs of the sat before launch to allow it to operate in Ka Hi ... 2) They colocate it with D10 or D11.


I'm hoping for option #1 but not sure how feasible it is.

Each Spaceway has 1GHz of bandwidth that's barely used within each home.

Seems like they've had plenty of time to switch the transponders to Ka Hi.

Seem like they already own the license to those frequencies so no big deal with the FCC.

Just not sure if they really want/need to keep D12 the same as D10 and D11, so that it really could move to replace D10 or D11 in the case of an emergency.

Would think if they switch D12 to Ka Hi, and co-locate with a Spaceway, and give it access to 14 transponders worth of national bandwidth then they wouldn't care because they could just move channels around in the case of an emergency rather then need to move a satellite.

So much fun with the hypotheticals!


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> So much fun with the hypotheticals!


So, started digging through the FCC filings again yet?


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> So, started digging through the FCC filings again yet?


Been sitting here hunting and pecking through everything. I find zip, nada, zilch.

I must be missing something. There must be some information somewhere!!!


----------



## evan_s

Sixto said:


> I'm hoping for option #1 but not sure how feasible it is.


To me the biggest clue what to expect is they are only saying 50 more national channels instead of 75. That tells me that they will be limited in the number of conus transponders they can run which seems to fit with putting it in Ka Lo with with either d10 or d11 along side it. If it was going to Ka Hi I'd expect them to be able to run the full compliment of conus transponders for 75 more national channels.

If it did go Ka Hi I expect the more likely situation is moving both spaceways to one slot and leaving d12 alone in the other. With the Spaceways completely different 65mhz transponder sizes it would seem to make sharing a slot more complicated but the spaceways are very flexible sats so who knows.

I'm sure we'll know soon enough. Does anyone know what the latest they could get FCC approval for the final orbital location before the launch would be?


----------



## Tom Robertson

evan_s said:


> To me the biggest clue what to expect is they are only saying 50 more national channels instead of 75. That tells me that they will be limited in the number of conus transponders they can run which seems to fit with putting it in Ka Lo with with either d10 or d11 along side it. If it was going to Ka Hi I'd expect them to be able to run the full compliment of conus transponders for 75 more national channels.
> 
> If it did go Ka Hi I expect the more likely situation is moving both spaceways to one slot and leaving d12 alone in the other. With the Spaceways completely different 65mhz transponder sizes it would seem to make sharing a slot more complicated but the spaceways are very flexible sats so who knows.
> 
> I'm sure we'll know soon enough. Does anyone know what the latest they could get FCC approval for the final orbital location before the launch would be?


While I don't know, I'd guess they could ask for expedited approval about 30 days before it has to be cleared for launcher company. And I'd guess they'd need at least 30, more likely 60, days before launch.

So no later than June-July would be my guess for a September launch.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RAD

Any reason they couldn't configure it with some Ka Hi and some KA Low transponders, why would it need to be one or the other?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So does this mean we'll have to wait almost another year for more HD chanels then?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doubtful. Tho don't expect another 30 or so until a year from now.


----------



## evan_s

RAD said:


> Any reason they couldn't configure it with some Ka Hi and some KA Low transponders, why would it need to be one or the other?


I don't know of any reason why that wouldn't work. D8 and D9 do both Ku and Ka and d11 had an experimental BSS and the Ka components.


----------



## Sixto

There are FCC filings for every DirecTV satellite except D12.

Old sats, newer sats, future sats, Ka, Ku, BSS. All the RB-1 thru RB-5 BSS sats. Sats that have been canceled. Two dozen sats.

Nothing that hints at D12. Ever.

Along the way I thought I found the secret. Maybe hidden in Liberty's name. Had clues to that effect. Nop. Led to a dead end.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The only thing I've found about D12 is the (redacted) Boeing contract filed in regards to D10 and D11 identifying it as a ground spare. (And identical to D10 and D11).

No individual filings yet.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> The only thing I've found about D12 is the (redacted) Boeing contract filed in regards to D10 and D11 identifying it as a ground spare. (And identical to D10 and D11).
> 
> No individual filings yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


What seems weird is that there are multiple filings for sats not built yet (the BSS sats) but nothing on D12. Nada.


----------



## Paul A

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That time will be here before you know it...and the "New HD Channels on D12" anticipation posts will be all over the place here....:lol:


Cant wait for the Russian "NAH-MEE-NOL" launch status reports.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> What seems weird is that there are multiple filings for sats not built yet (the BSS sats) but nothing on D12. Nada.


Those are all filing to acquire new orbital slots/frequencies. And since that is wholly new frequency assignments where the rules and operating orders are still under revision, there are multiple filings for each request.

D12 obviously isn't going to a new orbital slot/frequency... 

So at this point, all DIRECTV needs is launch approval for frequency bandwidth they already have.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Those are all filing to acquire new orbital slots/frequencies. And since that is wholly new frequency assignments where the rules and operating orders are still under revision, there are multiple filings for each request.
> 
> D12 obviously isn't going to a new orbital slot/frequency...
> 
> So at this point, all DIRECTV needs is launch approval for frequency bandwidth they already have.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yep, figured. D12 going to an existing slot. Still thought there might be some shred of evidence filed but guess there's really no need yet. Especially if they might be tweaking where it might go.


----------



## exieramos

LameLefty said:


> And any indication of there's going to be another experimental BSS payload like D11 has.


The definition I've found on the web for BSS is "Broadcast Satellite Service". Is that what posters are referring to? Why would D* be testing this since they are already a "Broadcast Satellite Service". If this is not what D* means by BSS Testing then what is it and what is it's significance to D12? I've read that D11 did some BSS testing but what was the outcome of that test and what services did it allow D* to implement by testing it?

Just curious...


----------



## smiddy

Paul A said:


> Cant wait for the Russian "NAH-MEE-NOL" launch status reports.


Man, I got such a giggle out of that, thanks for reminding me!


----------



## Tom Robertson

exieramos said:


> The definition I've found on the web for BSS is "Broadcast Satellite Service". Is that what posters are referring to? Why would D* be testing this since they are already a "Broadcast Satellite Service". If this is not what D* means by BSS Testing then what is it and what is it's significance to D12? I've read that D11 did some BSS testing but what was the outcome of that test and what services did it allow D* to implement by testing it?
> 
> Just curious...


Well, it gets really confusing. Grab a seat, some aspirin, and I'll try to make this easy without going into too many pages... 

Skipping the old satellite stuff (the big ugly dish [BUD), C-band) we jump into Ku band that is used for both BUD and direct to home like Dish and DIRECTV.

They use one set of radio frequencies for uplinking to the satellite and another to send back down to the home. (The new DIRECTV frequencies for Ka use yet another couple of sets of frequencies for up and down.)

Someone realizes that if one is very careful, one can use the same frequency that Ku satellite uses for an uplink as a downlink without interfering (they hope) with the existing up/down: 17.3Ghz thru 17.8GHz. So they give this new downlink frequency yet another uplink frequency and call the pairing BSS.

Where it gets really hairy is different international groups call all these BSS, FSS, DTH, etc. Since this is "reversing" the direction of an existing frequency usage, I like the informal name reverse band. 

The real trick is to avoid interference on the ground right next to a transmitter that is uplinking in the normal band. If the uplink dish is not designed right, it can sloppily radiate signal that would prevent nearby receivers from getting the new reverse band signals from space.

The other trick is to prevent interference from a transmitter in space from messing with another satellite's reception of the uplink signal.

These are the tests that DIRECTV and the FCC are running with the BSS packages. To determine the rules the FCC will set for radiated power, satellite spacing, dish size, etc.

Hope I didn't make your head hurt too much. 
Tom


----------



## Lyle Thorogood

Tom, so what would be the advantage to DirecTV? Significantly increase channel capacity? Eliminate the need for a large fleet of satellites? Reduced costs? Would this be similiar to moving from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 as saving bandwidth?

Just curious. Saludos.


----------



## exieramos

Thanks for that explanation Tom!  So as Lyle says what are the advantages to satellite broadcasters using multiple up/down link frequencies in the same band? Does D* get some type of compensation from the FCC (slots, frequencies, money?) for deploying the BSS package and using up space on D11 to accommodate it?


----------



## LameLefty

exieramos said:


> Thanks for that explanation Tom!  So as Lyle says what are the advantages to satellite broadcasters using multiple up/down link frequencies in the same band? Does D* get some type of compensation from the FCC (slots, frequencies, money?) for deploying the BSS package and using up space on D11 to accommodate it?


The BSS payload on D11 was strictly experimental. As far as we can tell, it was one transponder that operated for a short time while Directv collected data and that's it.

BSS licensing is a 'nuther whole kettle of fish . . . this spectrum chunk will (possibly? probably?) someday be used for future direct-to-home satellite broadcasting, but not from any of the current Directv satellites. This is strictly several-years-or-more into the future stuff.


----------



## Sixto

Lyle Thorogood said:


> Tom, so what would be the advantage to DirecTV? Significantly increase channel capacity? Eliminate the need for a large fleet of satellites? Reduced costs? Would this be similiar to moving from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 as saving bandwidth?
> 
> Just curious. Saludos.


Since prime orbital slots and frequencies are limited and tightly regulated ... BSS is a creative way (as Tom explained) to re-use available bandwidth. That's once it's tested and it works


----------



## HoTat2

And just an additional note of clarity to Tom's post;

Not that he doesn't know this since he most certainly does 

The newly proposed "17/24 GHz BSS" band as it is called, is specifically from 17.3-17.7 GHz on the downlink and 24.75-25.15 GHz on the uplink for the USA. Or 400 MHz in bandwidth up/down. Whereas it is from 17.3-17.8 GHz on the downlink and 24.75-25.25 GHz on the uplink, or 500 MHz in bandwidth up/down for international since 17.7-17.8 GHz are reserved for terrestrial microwave services in the U.S.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Lyle Thorogood said:


> Tom, so what would be the advantage to DirecTV? Significantly increase channel capacity? Eliminate the need for a large fleet of satellites? Reduced costs? Would this be similiar to moving from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 as saving bandwidth?
> 
> Just curious. Saludos.


Basically, as sixto metions, the advantage is more bandwidth for future use. Likely more HD channels.

And then who knows. Some really cool stuff I hope.  Let your imagination run free about what they could do with lots and lots of bandwidth.

The earliest it could be used is about 3 years out. Slots haven't been awarded yet and DIRECTV hasn't contracted satellites to be built yet.

(Then there is the whole issue of new dishes and/or LNBs) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Basically, as sixto metions, the advantage is more bandwidth for future use. Likely more HD channels.
> 
> And then who knows. Some really cool stuff I hope.  Let your imagination run free about what they could do with lots and lots of bandwidth.
> 
> The earliest it could be used is about 3 years out. Slots haven't been awarded yet and DIRECTV hasn't contracted satellites to be built yet.
> 
> (Then there is the whole issue of new dishes and/or LNBs)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


And not to put a damper on anyone's hopes, dreams, aspirations and speculations, but . . . Directv's most recent investor conference indicated that they had nothing firmly planned beyond D12. Given the current economic climate, that is very unsurprising. There are like 11,000,000 people out of work in this country, with tens of thousands more to come each month it seems, before things get better sometime in the future. Even after spectrum and orbital slot licenses from the FCC, use of BSS will require new satellites (several hundred million dollars per satellite to build and launch) plus an unknown amount for new LNB assembles and/or brand new dishes (depending on orbital slots used), for millions of subscribers.

This is not a short-term thing.


----------



## je4755

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks Sixto....I just talked to my contact this morning, who told me virtually the same thing...they are trying to get things in place for the "holiday season" to launch more HD and HD LIL channels "prior to year end", or so I was told.
> 
> If the launch date doesn't move any further, a late November or early December set of HD channel startup dates seems feasible.
> 
> One last tidbit..I was also told that SeaLaunch was the first option, but the timing wasn't there that they needed, so they went to "Plan B".


If, as we have been told, much of the delay in filling available D11 slots emanates from failure to reach agreement with HD content providers, why would additional capacity from D12 necessarily translate into "more HD channels?" Does your source anticipate current difficulties in contract negotiations (presumably with Cox, Disney/ESPN, etc.) likely will be overcome by the end of the year? That would be great news, indeed.


----------



## LameLefty

je4755 said:


> If, as we have been told, much of the delay in filling available D11 slots emanates from failure to reach agreement with HD content providers, why would additional capacity from D12 necessarily translate into "more HD channels?" Does your source anticipate current difficulties in contract negotiations (presumably with Cox, Disney/ESPN, etc.) likely will be overcome by the end of the year? That would be great news, indeed.


Because, in reality, due to the need for HD slots for sports subs, there is relatively little free capacity on D10/D11 for new general interest channels - on the order of 14 or 15 channels, if I recall correctly. The full suite of remaining premium channels will take up most or all of that - add in the ones that are still missing plus the ones that are likely to convert to HD over the next 4 - 5 years (the timeframe before the next generation of sats are likely to be built and launched) and you can see that there is no easy way for Directv to allocate the relatively few transponders available until they have a big bump in capacity. Having that capacity means they can negotiate competitively with the various providers who all might want space versus the ones who are still holding out for a better deal.


----------



## DBordello

I assume between D10, D11 and the spaceways that all of the allocated bandwidth at 99/103 is in use. 

Is it really that DirecTV doesn't have enough hardware to use all of the licensed Ka bands? 

How will D12 help this situation? Provide additional backup transponders such that the current spares on D10 and D11 could be use and in case of failure D12 could kick in (simplification, obviously they'd spread the load around).


----------



## evan_s

DBordello said:


> I assume between D10, D11 and the spaceways that all of the allocated bandwidth at 99/103 is in use.


yes and no. With D10, D11 and the 2 spaceways they are in use but I would say they are far from being fully utilizied.


> Is it really that DirecTV doesn't have enough hardware to use all of the licensed Ka bands?


These are new licenses and they are just starting to use up the space.


> How will D12 help this situation? Provide additional backup transponders such that the current spares on D10 and D11 could be use and in case of failure D12 could kick in (simplification, obviously they'd spread the load around).


How exactly D12 ends up helping will depend on where exactly they end up putting it but currently D10 and D11 are both operating 14 conus transponders and 10 transponders allocated to spot beams. That is a lot of transponders allocated to spot beams and probably more than they need but since they didn't really have the hardware to support more conus transponders with only a single sat at each location there was no reason not to use em for spots. At 101 for their Ku they have 3 or 4 sats providing the conus and spot beams from there and they are only using 5 transponders for their spot beams.

The Ka Hi from with the spaceways is even less utilized. They both have a single sat with nothing but spot beams provided by that large block of bandwidth. In addition the Spaceways are unique sats since they use a Phased array for their antennas which allows them to change the size and location of their beams while in space which does make them much more flexible but it does also make them less efficient over all and so they are only running 8 larger transponders from those slots.

Overall they are being used but there is a lot of ways they can optimizing things and get more efficient usage out of the space they have they just need more sats to do that. Dish has done that type of things several times recently and is in the process of doing the same thing with a new sat at 129.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty and evan_s provided great answers ...

I'd just add ...

D10 is full ... D11 has 8 open slots and 18 ppv replacement candidates. Total is 26. (all details in the D10/D11 transponder link)

Of the 26, at least 9-10 are needed to be held back for the NFL and other part-time needs (such as was just used for the Australian Open).

That leaves about 14-16.

Considering a few for the few RSN's that are planned to go 24x7, there's more like a dozen slots available (8.5% of the D10/D11 140 slots).

Would expect that they'd now be very prudent with how they use that last 8.5% over the next 10-12 months. Simple business optimization and prioritization of existing resources (in this case, bandwidth).

In addition would be any bandwidth made available with the MPEG2 shut-down, which would require bandwidth re-allocation between 101/110/119 to utilize.

D12 will enable a more dramatic expansion.


----------



## dreadlk

It's amazing how many people have there heads in the sand when it comes to the Economy! Denials like "Nope it won't happen to me or my Directv, we are safe" 

I would be shocked if D12 really does gets launched and I would be even further shocked if they tried to use it in a method that required outfitting 11 Million customers with new gear. People need to realize that things are bad right now for the TV industry, not just a little bad but very very bad. I have eluded to it in another thread, Let me just say that my Inside source tells me that channels are going to start dropping very soon. So all this talk of expansion etc. is just a whole lot of wishful thinking unless something drastic changes about the current economy. I’m not saying that it's not possible but for right now, DIRECTV is not thinking about hardware expansion they are much more focused on finishing up what has been started as cheaply as possible and then hunkering down to survive the storm.


----------



## LameLefty

dreadlk said:


> I would be shocked if D12 really does gets launched


For that to be true (i.e., D12 remains a ground spare), the management group of Directv would just have had to commit major securities fraud by claiming just this month that it is planned for this year. Furthermore, the sources showing it on the launch manifest would all be lying.

That makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## evan_s

dreadlk said:


> It's amazing how many people have there heads in the sand when it comes to the Economy! Denials like "Nope it won't happen to me or my Directv, we are safe"
> 
> I would be shocked if D12 really does gets launched and I would be even further shocked if they tried to use it in a method that required outfitting 11 Million customers with new gear. People need to realize that things are bad right now for the TV industry, not just a little bad but very very bad. I have eluded to it in another thread, Let me just say that my Inside source tells me that channels are going to start dropping very soon. So all this talk of expansion etc. is just a whole lot of wishful thinking unless something drastic changes about the current economy. I'm not saying that it's not possible but for right now, DIRECTV is not thinking about hardware expansion they are much more focused on finishing up what has been started as cheaply as possible and then hunkering down to survive the storm.


The last financial report from DirecTV still showed them doing well and in a solid position. As Lamelefty mentioned they did say they were planning the launch and couldn't have been lying about their plans when they said that or it would have been a major issue. That doesn't mean that things couldn't change between now and the launch. Since it is already built I would think things would have to get pretty bad for them to not launch it so they could start benefitting from the already incurred expenses. If things do stay bad for an extended period I wouldn't be surprised to see them failing to meet milestones for BSS and defaulting on those licenses.


----------



## dreadlk

Things are going to be changing a lot this year, so far it's only been the first set of Dominoes that have fallen, take another look around March and you will look back on todays problems and think they where nothing.

People are being insulated from what exactly is happening, (we all believe the hole can only be so deep, if most people knew how deep it really was !!) but they don't and for good reason. Let me just say that right now we are like the Frog in the Pot! They don't want to throw us in Hot Water for fear that we will all Jump, but instead they are going to let us all slowly get boiled.



evan_s said:


> The last financial report from DirecTV still showed them doing well and in a solid position. As Lamelefty mentioned they did say they were planning the launch and couldn't have been lying about their plans when they said that or it would have been a major issue. That doesn't mean that things couldn't change between now and the launch. Since it is already built I would think things would have to get pretty bad for them to not launch it so they could start benefitting from the already incurred expenses. If things do stay bad for an extended period I wouldn't be surprised to see them failing to meet milestones for BSS and defaulting on those licenses.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dreadlk said:


> Things are going to be changing a lot this year, so far it's only been the first set of Dominoes that have fallen, take another look around March and you will look back on todays problems and think they where nothing.
> 
> People are being insulated from what exactly is happening, (we all believe the hole can only be so deep, if most people knew how deep it really was !!) but they don't and for good reason. Let me just say that right now we are like the Frog in the Pot! They don't want to throw us in Hot Water for fear that we will all Jump, but instead they are going to let us all slowly get boiled.


I'm just glad then that D12 isn't up there yet....because the sky appears to be falling.


----------



## bones boy

dreadlk said:


> Let me just say that right now we are like the Frog in the Pot! They don't want to throw us in Hot Water for fear that we will all Jump, but instead they are going to let us all slowly get boiled.


----------



## dreadlk

Drop a frog in a pot of boiling water and it will jump out.
If you put the frog in a pot of cool water then turn on the flame he will sit there happily until the water boils and he dies.



bones boy said:


>


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So anyway......

There once was a sat named D12.....


----------



## eandras

razorback9926 said:


> Digital cable has the upper hand since they can carry tons of local HD channels. D* has to carry locals for every market, whereas cable only carries for one market. My cable company's digital service even carries many FM channels as a bonus. Digital cable is still $20/month more than D*, but if they ever get competitive with price, D* could be in trouble. I'm not sure how D* can fend off this problem much longer.


You may be right on one part of your quote that they only have to carry locals for one market but there HD offering really sucks. I had cablevision installed 3 weeeks ago with the triple play so I went to cancel Directv and they gave me a nice offer to stay so I dropped all the unneeded stuff from cablevision that I now keep D and still have most of the triple play plus directv for a few dollars more than I was paying d originally.

Cablevision in fact just droped 15 free hd channels and added 15v premium channels.


----------



## Sixto

"Official" now!:http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/launch_sched.html​


----------



## harsh

je4755 said:


> If, as we have been told, much of the delay in filling available D11 slots emanates from failure to reach agreement with HD content providers, why would additional capacity from D12 necessarily translate into "more HD channels?"


Maybe they could be much less discriminating about the channels that they add.


----------



## Shades228

This could start to stray fast if we start talking about programming. Needless to say the D12 will bring more HD because launching a satellite and not using it is a waste of money. Speculation would suggest that we will see another surge of HD channels because they have to put that satellite to use. With the current capacity low on the D11 some of the transponders are going to be reserved as well in the case of one transponder going down and not being able to be repaired. 

I haven't read every post in this thread so I'm not aware of the D12 being specified to an orbital slot yet has this been done already?


----------



## dettxw

Sixto said:


> "Official" now!:http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/launch_sched.html​


They kind of sneaked that in there didn't they?
(but Sixto was looking)

No actual news release.


----------



## LameLefty

dettxw said:


> They kind of sneaked that in there didn't they?
> (but Sixto was looking)
> 
> No actual news release.


If past history is any guide, there will be a news release when the satellite is shipped to Baikonur.


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> If past history is any guide, there will be a news release when the satellite is shipped to Baikonur.


Any chance of getting configuration information, orbital slot, etc before then?


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Any chance of getting configuration information, orbital slot, etc before then?


We'll know. Just not yet.


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> Any chance of getting configuration information, orbital slot, etc before then?





Sixto said:


> We'll know. Just not yet.


To elaborate a bit on what Sixto says, typically someone (usually Sixto, since he's more on the ball about it than the rest of us :lol will find the FCC filings when they are made. Those filings will indicate the orbital slot and frequency allocations. For D12, we know it was originally indicated that it would be a ground spare, essentially identical to D10 and D11. Unless and until we find an FCC document with different information, we can probably safely assume that it remains identical to D10 and 11.

Other documents to look for in the FCC filings might be requests or permission to drift Spaceway 1 or 2 to one location (99 or 103) which might indicate which slot D12 is going to, though it's not at all certain that either of the Spaceways will be moved.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Geez I love this thread...

I learn a ton here.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Unless and until we find an FCC document with different information ...


Did a fresh look last night. Searched on satellite names, satellite call signs, "DirecTV", "Liberty Media", "Liberty Entertainment" ... and every permutation ... nothing yet 

Did find some interesting stuff on transfer from DirecTV to Liberty but nothing else (yet).

BTW, I can not find any callsign ever released for D12. That would be nice to know. Or it's not assigned yet. Found dozens of callsigns for every other past, present, and future DirecTV satellite.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> We'll know. Just not yet.


Breifly OT (somewhat maybe)

Sixto;

Would you clarify what the meaning of the occasional "SP" and "PT" listings on the your D10/11 transponder map here;

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1191863&postcount=2

I'm usually pretty good at figuring these things out without having to ask but for the life of me I can't figure these ones.


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> Would you clarify what the meaning of the occasional "SP" and "PT" listings on the your D10/11 transponder map


From the comparison posts:


Code:


Notes: MINOR Changes are part-time 9x, 3xx, 4xx, 6xx and 7xx channels
       1st column is channel number, 2nd column is channel name
       3rd column is FT=Full-Time, PT=Part-time, SP=Sports Remapped from RSN
       4th column is Satellite, 5th column is transponder number
       6th column is video slot number, 1010-1050 are main slots

I will add to post#2.

FT needs bandwidth full-time.
PT needs bandwidth part-time.
SP needs no bandwidth and is simply a re-map from another channel that already has bandwidth allocated.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> If past history is any guide, there will be a news release when the satellite is shipped to Baikonur.


And before that - an arrival of huge airplan (Ruslan-124 ?) at Moffet air field.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> From the comparison posts:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Notes: MINOR Changes are part-time 9x, 3xx, 4xx, 6xx and 7xx channels
> 1st column is channel number, 2nd column is channel name
> 3rd column is FT=Full-Time, PT=Part-time, SP=Sports Remapped from RSN
> 4th column is Satellite, 5th column is transponder number
> 6th column is video slot number, 1010-1050 are main slots
> 
> I will add to post#2.
> 
> FT needs bandwidth full-time.
> PT needs bandwidth part-time.
> SP needs no bandwidth and is simply a re-map from another channel that already has bandwidth allocated.


Thanks;


----------



## jefbal99

P Smith said:


> And before that - an arrival of huge airplan (Ruslan-124 ?) at Moffet air field.


That or the 225, if the 225 came in, it would be very cool to get some pictures and see that beast in person. I think the 124 would be more than enough to move D12.


----------



## dodge boy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Geez I love this thread...
> 
> I learn a ton here.


I learned how to boil frogs 
And also alot of us have no clue about how bad it is going to get 
I am stocking up on water, food, gasoline and ammo....


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> it would be very cool to get some pictures and see that beast in person ...


need a picture of tom with D12, just like last time with D11  get that passport ready!


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> And before that - an arrival of huge airplan (Ruslan-124 ?) at Moffet air field.


Wouldn't it ship from LAX (across the street from Boeing and Directv)? It was once known as Mines Field (Moffet is in the Bay Area).


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> Wouldn't it ship from LAX (across the street from Boeing and Directv)?


in the dark of night ... gotta get my nightvision camera


----------



## HDRoberts

P Smith said:


> And before that - an arrival of huge airplan (Ruslan-124 ?) at Moffet air field.


The aircraft generally used are Antonov-124s. It is just named Ruslan, much like the C-5 is called a Galaxy although manufactured by Lockheed. Antonov-225 in called Mriya. It has the distinction of being the largest aircraft in the world. That is much less likely as there is only one AN-225 in the world in operation.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Did a fresh look last night. Searched on satellite names, satellite call signs, "DirecTV", "Liberty Media", "Liberty Entertainment" ... and every permutation ... nothing yet
> 
> Did find some interesting stuff on transfer from DirecTV to Liberty but nothing else (yet).
> 
> BTW, I can not find any callsign ever released for D12. That would be nice to know. Or it's not assigned yet. Found dozens of callsigns for every other past, present, and future DirecTV satellite.


I found something the other night in a document from (I believe) 2006 that had what I think were callsigns for all 5 Directv Ka-band satellites (SW1 & 2, D10/11/12) but as I wasn't looking for that information, I just scanned over it and moved on. If I find it again I'll send you a link.


----------



## jefbal99

HDRoberts said:


> The aircraft generally used are Antonov-124s. It is just named Ruslan, much like the C-5 is called a Galaxy although manufactured by Lockheed. Antonov-225 in called Mriya. It has the distinction of being the largest aircraft in the world. That is much less likely as there is only one AN-225 in the world in operation.


Agreed, however, they are refurbing a 2nd AN-225 airframe that should be flying by 2010.


----------



## bones boy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Geez I love this thread...
> 
> I learn a ton here.


I'm still thrown by the frog pot boiling thing ...

okay I'll let it go.


----------



## HDRoberts

jefbal99 said:


> Agreed, however, they are refurbing a 2nd AN-225 airframe that should be flying by 2010.


I know, but it won't do much good for a satellite that is launching in 2009. By the time the second is flying, D12 will be at FL1174060. 

An AN-124 can handle a satellite fine. The An-225 is best for _really_ outsized cargo.


----------



## LameLefty

HDRoberts said:


> fine. The An-225 is best for _really_ outsized cargo.


In fact, any number of aircraft can carry a Boeing 702 satellite. Even fully fueled (which is will NOT be for flight!) it doesn't weigh that much. And with the PV arrays folded, it's not even very big.

Now, range from California to Baikonur is another consideration; that, plus cost of transport pretty much dictates which aircraft is chosen.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Thanks sixto! I used to follow the FCC documents, but you were so much more active (and reliable) that I only peruse what you link to. Awesome job!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HDRoberts

LameLefty said:


> In fact, any number of aircraft can carry a Boeing 702 satellite. Even fully fueled (which is will NOT be for flight!) it doesn't weigh that much. And with the PV arrays folded, it's not even very big.
> 
> Now, range from California to Baikonur is another consideration; that, plus cost of transport pretty much dictates which aircraft is chosen.


Don't forget they are shipped in a rather large container for climate control. 747 is the only other likely aircraft (and only the nose-opening variety). The sat can't fit in the doors of a DC-10/MD-11 or A300 cargo configured aircraft. Several US government planes could go it, but they don't do private lifting.


----------



## smiddy

HDRoberts said:


> Don't forget they are shipped in a rather large container for climate control. 747 is the only other likely aircraft (and only the nose-opening variety). The sat can't fit in the doors of a DC-10/MD-11 or A300 cargo configured aircraft. Several US government planes could go it, but they don't do private lifting.


There is a Russian plane, I can't recall its designation, that they do use for both military and commercial that they could use too.


----------



## lwilli201

At this link there is a picture of a satellite being delivered to Baikonur however the aircraft is not itentified. It is a monster. Can anyone identify it?

http://www.ilslaunch.com/baikonur/


----------



## doctor j

I believe it is an Antonov-124.

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/antonov/antonov3.html

Doctor j


----------



## Tom Robertson

Let us forget the frogs, ammo, etc. and stay on the topic of D12. :backtotop

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

lwilli201 said:


> At this link there is a picture of a satellite being delivered to Baikonur however the aircraft is not itentified. It is a monster. Can anyone identify it?
> 
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/baikonur/


I see the name "An-124" on cockpit.








You can find my old post [D10 time ?] when I saw it was landing at Moffet.


----------



## FarNorth

The AN 124s refuel and crew change here in Anchorage, Alaska; they often sit on the ramp for 10-12 hours at a time just south of the FedEx facility. 

Big plane.


----------



## jefbal99

Holy crap that is huge, I can't imagine how big the 225 is...


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Holy crap that is huge, I can't imagine how big the 225 is...


good thing price of fuel is down! ... let's get D12 there quick while we can save a buck


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If they can pop the Shuttle on the back of a 747....they should be able to get D12 easy enough to its destination via several aircraft that would hold it internally.


----------



## spectrumsp

Back last year during the D-11 launch prep discussion, it was hypothesized that D-12, when launched, would be parked as a spare...is this still the consensus?


----------



## LameLefty

spectrumsp said:


> Back last year during the D-11 launch prep discussion, it was hypothesized that D-12, when launched, would be parked as a spare...is this still the consensus?


Nope.


----------



## Sixto

spectrumsp said:


> Back last year during the D-11 launch prep discussion, it was hypothesized that D-12, when launched, would be parked as a spare...is this still the consensus?


from post#1:

2/28/2008 - DirecTV Investor Meeting Presentation:"Will launch D12 because the growing importance of HD warrants its use to expand national capacity. Launch expected late 2009. Capacity for more than 200 HD national channels"​Pages 17-18: http://investor.directv.com/common/...c&filename=001_Master_Handout_InvestorDay.pdf​


----------



## HoTat2

spectrumsp said:


> Back last year during the D-11 launch prep discussion, it was hypothesized that D-12, when launched, would be parked as a spare...is this still the consensus?


Nah...

The consensus now being that DIRECTV-12 will be positioned at either 99 or 103 to work in tandem with its respective brother satellite already there. The thinking is that if the transponder mix between CONUS and spotbeams can be properly configured on both birds at the same slot. The combination of the two, even though each must operate below capacity since they share the same frequencies, will still offer greater bandwidth particularly to the CONUS beams than only one the satellites operating alone at full capacity.


----------



## evan_s

HoTat2 said:


> Nah...
> 
> The consensus now being that DIRECTV-12 will be positioned at either 99 or 103 to work in tandem with its respective brother satellite already there. The thinking is that if the transponder mix between CONUS and spotbeams can be properly configured on both birds at the same slot. The combination of the two, even though each must operate below capacity since they share the same frequencies, will still offer greater bandwidth particularly to the CONUS beams than only one the satellites operating alone at full capacity.


Based on the info at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=869688#post869688 the absolute max D10 or D11 could support would be 22 conus transponders out of the 24 transponders they use. That would be using all of their spares. Even running 18 or 20 transponders to leave a reasonable amount of space for spot beams would end up consuming many of the spares and probably a large portion of the power budget limiting the number of spots it can provide.

Put 2 sats in a slot on the other hand and each sat can power say 10 conus transponders for a total of 20 conus transponders and a lot of spots from each sat. The most difficult part would seem to be setting up the spot beam map correctly to maximize the coverage and total spots provided. This would also explain the 50 more conus channels instead of 75.


----------



## HoTat2

evan_s said:


> Based on the info at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=869688#post869688 the absolute max D10 or D11 could support would be 22 conus transponders out of the 24 transponders they use. That would be using all of their spares. Even running 18 or 20 transponders to leave a reasonable amount of space for spot beams would end up consuming many of the spares and probably a large portion of the power budget limiting the number of spots it can provide.
> 
> Put 2 sats in a slot on the other hand and each sat can power say 10 conus transponders for a total of 20 conus transponders *and a lot of spots from each sat.* The most difficult part would seem to be setting up the spot beam map correctly to maximize the coverage and total spots provided. This would also explain the 50 more conus channels instead of 75.


IIRC evan_s;

We discussed this a while ago, and the main concern was reclaiming lost spot-beam capacity. For example configuring a D12/D11 or D12/D10 combo for 10 CONUS transponders apiece forming a composite 20 for HD national programming, would leave only 4 available frequencies for spotbeam usage on each satellite. Now the question is will this 8 spotbeam frequency combination from the two satellites combined have a sufficient reuse capability to reconstitute most (if not all) of the original lost capacity due to this new double satellite combination?

Especially considering that unlike using a single satellite with the 10 spotbeam transponder channels laid out 15-24 in the order of increasing frequency, most if not all of a composite spotbeam channel grouping from combining two birds will be in same frequency pairs, thereby reducing their reuse efficiency.


----------



## HDRoberts

If they are going from 150 to 200, that's 10 more transponders (50 channels divided by 5 channels per TP). From the link provided, D10/11 use 10 TP frequencies each for spots. So to me, it sounds like either D10 or D11 will lose ALL spot capacity. That, or DirecTV won't really have space for 200 channels. 

I renew my objection. I don't see how it works without a big loss in HD LiL capacity.


----------



## evan_s

HoTat2 said:


> IIRC evan_s;
> 
> We discussed this a while ago, and the main concern was reclaiming lost spot-beam capacity. For example configuring a D12/D11 or D12/D10 combo for 10 CONUS transponders apiece forming a composite 20 for HD national programming, would leave only 4 available frequencies for spotbeam usage on each satellite. Now the question is will this 8 spotbeam frequency combination from the two satellites combined have a sufficient reuse capability to reconstitute most (if not all) of the original lost capacity due to this new double satellite combination?
> 
> Especially considering that unlike using a single satellite with the 10 spotbeam transponder channels laid out 15-24 in the order of increasing frequency, most if not all of a composite spotbeam channel grouping from combining two birds will be in same frequency pairs, thereby reducing their reuse efficiency.


Yup it definitely remains to be seen. If I'm not mistaken they have all the spot beams from 101 using 5 transponders and I believe they are spread across multiple sats (d9 in conjunction with I believe DirecTV 1). The spot beam pattern for the spots from d10 and d11 do seem fairly loose with most people seeing lots of 0's but since they do have a larger spot beam that may limit things too.

What ever the solution is I'm sure DirecTV has already figured this out and knows what there plan is. We are all just stuck here guessing with only pieces of information and lacking the full information.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDRoberts said:


> If they are going from 150 to 200, that's 10 more transponders (50 channels divided by 5 channels per TP). From the link provided, D10/11 use 10 TP frequencies each for spots. So to me, it sounds like either D10 or D11 will lose ALL spot capacity. That, or DirecTV won't really have space for 200 channels.
> 
> I renew my objection. I don't see how it works without a big loss in HD LiL capacity.


(hums tunelessly...but trying not to look like humming tunelessly) hum de dum de dum dum dum...

LIL capacity will most definitely not be lost, only gained. Remember the tremendous power of hopping spotbeams. (And that is about all I can say directly.)

Happy Groundhog Day!
Tom


----------



## Groundhog45

Tom Robertson said:


> Happy Groundhog Day!
> Tom


Thank you!!!  

GH


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> LIL capacity will most definitely not be lost, only gained. Remember the tremendous power of hopping spotbeams. (And that is about all I can say directly.)
> 
> Happy Groundhog Day!
> Tom


Since they publically stated their committment to grow the HD LIL further, and also add capacity "up to" 200 HD National Channels....

....some of us are not worried in the least...


----------



## evan_s

HDRoberts said:


> If they are going from 150 to 200, that's 10 more transponders (50 channels divided by 5 channels per TP). From the link provided, D10/11 use 10 TP frequencies each for spots. So to me, it sounds like either D10 or D11 will lose ALL spot capacity. That, or DirecTV won't really have space for 200 channels.
> 
> I renew my objection. I don't see how it works without a big loss in HD LiL capacity.


Currently we have 28 TPS from d10 and d11 for Conus transponders. We'd need 10 more tps for 50 more channels.

Specifically my guess is that we'll see 20 conus Tps from D11 and D12 at 99. Combine that with 18 tps running off of D10 at 103 and we've got our 38 conus transponders. With the additional conus transponders on D10 it will have to shut down some spots to stay in power budgets but D11 and D12 will have power budget to spare and will run a much tighter spot beam pattern running many more total spots.

It's a shuffle and balancing act but it's nothing that DirecTV or dish haven't already done numerous times in the past. Heck my understanding is Dish is doing exactly this with a new sat getting ready to go into service at 129.


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Happy Groundhog Day!
> Tom


Bah humbug! The damn rodent saw his shadow, so it's 6 more weeks of winter.

Figures.


----------



## smiddy

Lord Vader said:


> Bah humbug! The damn rodent saw his shadow, so it's 6 more weeks of winter.
> 
> Figures.


I love snow, but not on my DriecTV, so let's get this DirecTV 12 up there for some fresh [HD] shall we?


----------



## HDRoberts

Tom Robertson said:


> (hums tunelessly...but trying not to look like humming tunelessly) hum de dum de dum dum dum...
> 
> LIL capacity will most definitely not be lost, only gained. Remember the tremendous power of hopping spotbeams. (And that is about all I can say directly.)
> 
> Happy Groundhog Day!
> Tom


What the heck is a "hopping" spotbeam?



evan_s said:


> Currently we have 28 TPS from d10 and d11 for Conus transponders. We'd need 10 more tps for 50 more channels.
> 
> Specifically my guess is that we'll see 20 conus Tps from D11 and D12 at 99. Combine that with 18 tps running off of D10 at 103 and we've got our 38 conus transponders. With the additional conus transponders on D10 it will have to shut down some spots to stay in power budgets but D11 and D12 will have power budget to spare and will run a much tighter spot beam pattern running many more total spots.
> 
> It's a shuffle and balancing act but it's nothing that DirecTV or dish haven't already done numerous times in the past. Heck my understanding is Dish is doing exactly this with a new sat getting ready to go into service at 129.


From the "FAQ" post everyone points me to, it sounds like D10/11/12 are only capable of 14 TPs at a time. Just because there are spare TWTAs doesn't mean they are capable of broadcasting CONUS in a given frequency.

The Dish sat is completely different. There have been 5 broken TPs that give them more bandwidth, and an all CONUS sat being replaced by a CONUS/Spot mix. And the old sat is moving afterward. DirecTV is adding a new sat to an already maxed out spectrum-wise slot, with othing being replaced.

Even if what you say is possible, DirecTV still loses 10 (which is half) frequencies they can use for spots. Some can be handled more efficiency with another sat, but I'm not convinced they can DOUBLE their spotbeam efficiency.

Plus, aren't the Spaceways the only ones with Phased Arrays, meaning D10/11/12 cant just add spots at the drop of a hat.


----------



## Sixto

HDRoberts said:


> From the "FAQ" post everyone points me to, it sounds like D10/11/12 are only capable of 14 TPs at a time ...


D10 did do 16 national transponders for a while. The FCC filing shows 24 frequency ranges from 18300 to 18800. The first 14 are national, the other 10 are spots. We know they can at least do 16/8. Specs look like they can do 18/6.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

evan_s said:


> Based on the info at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=869688#post869688 the absolute max D10 or D11 could support would be 22 conus transponders out of the 24 transponders they use. That would be using all of their spares. Even running 18 or 20 transponders to leave a reasonable amount of space for spot beams would end up consuming many of the spares and probably a large portion of the power budget limiting the number of spots it can provide.
> 
> Put 2 sats in a slot on the other hand and each sat can power say 10 conus transponders for a total of 20 conus transponders and a lot of spots from each sat. The most difficult part would seem to be setting up the spot beam map correctly to maximize the coverage and total spots provided. This would also explain the 50 more conus channels instead of 75.


Can some areas have 2 or more sports for them?


----------



## HoTat2

HDRoberts said:


> What the heck is a "hopping" spotbeam...


Well I know what it is;

But I don't know how it applies to DirecTV's television service since none in their satellite fleet has this capability that I'm aware of. And a DBS service requires a continuous transport stream of data from the satellites to the receivers. Spotbeam hopping technology is primarily designed for TDMA based intermittent two-way communication via satellite such as computer internet IP data. Thus Spaceway 3 uses it for the Direct PC internet service.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Well I know what it is;
> 
> But I don't know how it applies to DirecTV's television service since none in their satellite fleet has this capability that I'm aware of. And a DBS service requires a continuous transport stream of data from the satellites to the receivers. Spotbeam hopping technology is primarily designed for TDMA based intermittent two-way communication via satellite such as computer internet IP data. Thus Spaceway 3 uses it for the Direct PC internet service.


I wonder if this means Spaceways 1 and 2 are being re-purposed in some way? gct's latest transponder data from late December shows, for instance, that my locals are now coming from D11 at 99 instead of SW2, where they had been for the preceding 2 years.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I wonder if this means Spaceways 1 and 2 are being re-purposed in some way? gct's latest transponder data from late December shows, for instance, that my locals are now coming from D11 at 99 instead of SW2, where they had been for the preceding 2 years.


me too. were spaceway. now on d11 spot.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> me too. were spaceway. now on d11 spot.


Speaking of Spaceways, whats the status of those?


----------



## Sixto

theratpatrol said:


> Speaking of Spaceways, whats the status of those?


been no news of anything different other then the conjecture in this thread


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDRoberts said:


> What the heck is a "hopping" spotbeam?


Hopping spotbeams are using the same frequency in multiple parts of the US at the same time.


HDRoberts said:


> From the "FAQ" post everyone points me to, it sounds like D10/11/12 are only capable of 14 TPs at a time. Just because there are spare TWTAs doesn't mean they are capable of broadcasting CONUS in a given frequency.
> 
> The Dish sat is completely different. There have been 5 broken TPs that give them more bandwidth, and an all CONUS sat being replaced by a CONUS/Spot mix. And the old sat is moving afterward. * DirecTV is adding a new sat to an already maxed out spectrum-wise slot, with othing being replaced.
> *
> Even if what you say is possible, DirecTV still loses 10 (which is half) frequencies they can use for spots. Some can be handled more efficiency with another sat, but I'm not convinced they can* DOUBLE their spotbeam efficiency. *
> 
> Plus, aren't the Spaceways the only ones with Phased Arrays, *meaning D10/11/12 cant just add spots at the drop of a hat.*


(bolding mine)
<Vinny, my cousin>Are you _sure?_ 

Question your assumptions...  And read more about the tremendous capabilities of the Spaceways.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

theratpatrol said:


> Speaking of Spaceways, whats the status of those?


Happily in space beaming signals to lots of good little (DIRECTV) boys and girls...


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> I wonder if this means Spaceways 1 and 2 are being re-purposed in some way? gct's latest transponder data from late December shows, for instance, that my locals are now coming from D11 at 99 instead of SW2, where they had been for the preceding 2 years.


Can the DirecTV receivers operate properly with such a bursty transmission as spotbeam hopping would produce? Having spotbeams rapidly (down to the microsecond timing level I suppose) jump around to service a number of DMAs on a time shared basis?

Anyone dare to guess if such is possible? It seems Tom is under NDA with his source on this one.


----------



## HDRoberts

Tom Robertson said:


> Hopping spotbeams are using the same frequency in multiple parts of the US at the same time.


And how does that differ from a plain ol' spotbeam, that also uses the same frequency in multiple parts of the US at the same time?

The TDMA explanation sounds good, but it doesn't sound very wise for satellite TV, that needs a continuous stream.



Tom Robertson said:


> (bolding mine)
> <Vinny, my cousin>Are you _sure?_
> 
> Question your assumptions... And read more about the tremendous capabilities of the Spaceways.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


No, I'm not sure. But forgive me for wanting evidence, not conjecture.

OK, the first thing you bolded: DirecTV is adding a new sat to an already maxed out spectrum-wise slot, with nothing being replaced.

So, isn't the entire Ka Low allocation at 99 and 103 being used? Seems like there are 24 TPs each, and all are in use. And sure the are not moving D10 or D11, so what could be being replaced? It would make no sence to move the Spaceways, as they are on a different frequency.

Second thing: DOUBLE their spotbeam efficiency.

So a 50% increase in Ka Low satellites (and likely spots) can provide a 100% increase in efficiency? Maybe, but again I want evidence.

Third: meaning D10/11/12 cant just add spots at the drop of a hat.

So do they have phased arrays? If not, whatever spots are there are all they got. Maybe there are some inactive, but still.

Lastly, I don't dispute the capabilities of the Spaceways, but they operate on an entirely different frequency allocation. I don't see how adding a new Ka Low sat can impact Ka High capacity, no more than adding a new C-band sat would influence the Ka High capacity. Maybe the spaceways can carry more of a load and free up a few TPs, but they don't need D12 to do that.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDRoberts said:


> ...
> No, I'm not sure. But forgive me for wanting evidence, not conjecture.
> ...


Evidence? It's all right in front of you. Your conclusions are incomplete. (To say they are wrong would also be wrong.) So take your thinking to the next level.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> Evidence? It's all right in front of you. Your conclusions are incomplete. (To say they are wrong would also be wrong.) So take your thinking to the next level.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Boy Tom, you'll pardon me for being still confused on this end with what your implying here, but can you please clarify a bit or are you just not at liberty to say more due to NDA or some other? Is it as LameLefty suggests that Spaceway 1 and 2 are going to be reconfigured to operate like their brother Spaceway 3 with a spotbeam hopping technology, and use this method to distribute HD (and MPEG-4 SD?) LiL spots to DMA markets?

Your being awfully mysterious on this issue


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Is it as LameLefty suggests that Spaceway 1 and 2 are going to be reconfigured to operate like their brother Spaceway 3 with a spotbeam hopping technology, and use this method to distribute HD (and MPEG-4 SD?) LiL spots to DMA markets?
> 
> Your being awfully mysterious on this issue


I'm not even sure that's the implication. 

To me, the implication may be that the Ka-hi band (underutilized as it is currently for HD spots) may be repurposed mostly into CONUS HD via D12, with the Spaceways being used instead for those "future purposes" that we keep hearing about. Perhaps a VOD service that does NOT require a broadband connection? A "faster-than-realtime" video data-dump type service to put VOD content onto specific boxes?


----------



## evan_s

JoeTheDragon said:


> Can some areas have 2 or more sports for them?


Yes areas can have multiple spot beams just not at the same transponder. EG in Portland I might see spots on Tps 21, 22, 23 and 24 but I can't see 2 Tp 24's. On the other hand assuming the spots are focused enough Portland could have it's locals on TP 24 and so could LA locals. Different spots aimed at different areas reuses the same TP numerous times.

The attached image is for spots from 101 using ku but it shows the concept well. if for example you count up the red circle for the 28 spot beam you see that it is reused 10 times across the country.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> Boy Tom, you'll pardon me for being still confused on this end with what your implying here, but can you please clarify a bit or are you just not at liberty to say more due to NDA or some other? Is it as LameLefty suggests that Spaceway 1 and 2 are going to be reconfigured to operate like their brother Spaceway 3 with a spotbeam hopping technology, and use this method to distribute HD (and MPEG-4 SD?) LiL spots to DMA markets?
> 
> Your being awfully mysterious on this issue


Sorry. While I do enjoy having fun (as do some of my contacts with me...) and I do need to be careful as to what I say, I don't mean to be quite so mysterious.

Let me try this slightly differently: while it is true that all the bandwidth at 99° and 103° is "in use", is it used to its full efficiency? (Answer is no.)

I honestly do not know if a TDMA technique is used in the phased arrays, but remember the Spaceways can be used in two modes. Dumb/wide (bandwidth) and active/narrow. (My terms.) 

While I'm pretty sure that D10 and D11 can't re-shape their spotbeams geographically, can they change their spots in terms of frequency? How many transponder frequencies does it take to get to "the center of a Tootsie Pop?"  Or to cover the entire US?

LameLefty is very aware of this stuff. He can think and say things I can't.  (Ok I can think them... And I learn from him and many people here all the time. Must be why I like this place.) 

So that is why I'm suggesting everyone remember the "Back to the Future" movies and think fourth dimensionally. Ok, maybe not truly in time, but frequency hopping spots.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I'm not even sure that's the implication.
> 
> To me, the implication may be that the Ka-hi band (underutilized as it is currently for HD spots) may be repurposed mostly into CONUS HD via D12, with the Spaceways being used instead for those "future purposes" that we keep hearing about. Perhaps a VOD service that does NOT require a broadband connection? A "faster-than-realtime" video data-dump type service to put VOD content onto specific boxes?


all good ideas! 

the key is whether D12 will have Ka Low or Ka High transponders. or maybe a combination. a simple answer to that will give us some solid options.

seems like Ka High would be intriguing, and then reconfigure a Spaceway for something "newer". but we've not seen any evidence that D12 is changing it's config so we may be left with a more traditional approach.

hopefully we'll know soon.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Thanks evan_s. That map shows that with only 6 transponder frequencies, the US is very well covered...


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> Thanks evan_s. That map shows that with only 6 transponder frequencies, the US is very well covered...


Maybe true in one sense Tom, as the six transponders at 101 may indeed appear to cover the U.S. geographically in this illustration;

But the problem is it can't cover the U.S. with a sufficient bandwidth or channel capacity which this one map doesn't indicate.

For example, in order to cover all of DirecTV's standard definition LiL markets, the Ku band requires spotbeam support from the SD core group at 101 and DIRECTV-7S at 119. Along with CONUS beam help from DIRECTV-1R at 72.5 (though transitioning to Ka), and in addition Ka spots from 99/103 for all the newest SD markets.

So I'm afraid those "six" transponders in the map don't really cover the U.S. very well by themselves. :nono2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok, point taken, how about if I redact "very" and just say [strike]very [/strike]well covered. 

And remember the Spaceways...


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> I'm not even sure that's the implication.
> 
> To me, the implication may be that the Ka-hi band (underutilized as it is currently for HD spots) may be repurposed mostly into CONUS HD via D12, with the Spaceways being used instead for those "future purposes" that we keep hearing about. Perhaps a VOD service that does NOT require a broadband connection? A "faster-than-realtime" video data-dump type service to put VOD content onto specific boxes?


While I realize we're still largely groping in the dark without much in the way of confirmed facts on this issue LameLefty. I thought the prevailing consensus here was that D12's transponder package is not modified for the Ka-hi band. Which is why I felt you suggested otherwise about the future of Spaceway 1 & 2 in my previous post.


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, point taken, how about if I redact "very" and just say [strike]very [/strike]well covered.
> 
> And remember the Spaceways...


Well that would depend on the numbers or percentages;

If you or someone else (since I'm too lazy these days , getting older I suppose) wants to do a comparative count of how many SD markets are served by 101 as opposed to those which are not. Then maybe we can still label it "well" as opposed to "very well covered."


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> While I realize we're still largely groping in the dark without much in the way of confirmed facts on this issue LameLefty. I thought the prevailing consensus here was that D12's transponder package is not modified for the Ka-hi band. Which is why I felt you suggested otherwise about the future of Spaceway 1 & 2 in my previous post.


I'm not sure how much actual physical modification is required, really, for D12 to be used in Ka-Hi instead of -Lo, assuming of course that's the approach Directv would take.

From a spacecraft systems engineering perspective, it's the basically the same mass, basically the same power requirements, same volume, etc. It's simply how the spacecraft bus is built-out that determines the different performance characteristics. E.g., install Widget A for this application, Widget B for that one. The rest of the spacecraft remains identical.

For that matter, remember that Spaceway 1 and 2 are both Boeing 702-bus spacecraft as well, just with vastly different payloads as compared to the more conventional D10/11/12. It's the antenna and signal processing stuff that makes SW1 and 2 different from D10/11/12, not the specific frequencies used for broadcast. Converting D12 to the other part of the Ka spectrum or a mix of Lo and Hi would not seem to me to be a big deal.

FCC filings will (eventually) tell the tale, but since Directv already holds licenses for both parts of the Ka spectrum at 99 and 103, it seems to me to be a question more of engineering and signal processing more than regulatory approval.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doesn't a change from Ka-Hi to Ka-Lo (or the other way) require either new feedhorns or transponders? Isn't a change that large more than a tuned system can do (efficiently) from space?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Doesn't a change from Ka-Hi to Ka-Lo (or the other way) require either new feedhorns or transponders? Isn't a change that large more than a tuned system can do (efficiently) from space?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I don't know enough about the "guts" of transmission systems to tell you for sure, but you're probably right.

Then again, substituting Widget A for Widget B sitting on the ground in a Boeing clean room is pretty easy.


----------



## HDRoberts

Alright, I guess no one can explain with clarity where the extra 50 slots come form. I give up. We shall see together in the fall.


----------



## LameLefty

HDRoberts said:


> Alright, I guess no one can explain with clarity where the extra 50 slots come form. I give up. We shall see together in the fall.


It's actually already been explained in this thread.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDRoberts said:


> Alright, I guess no one can explain with clarity where the extra 50 slots come form. I give up. We shall see together in the fall.


While no one has specified exactly which option(s) DIRECTV will use, several options have been presented.

Thankfully, I don't think we'll have to wait until the fall. I expect the FCC filings will specify with the clarity we all want how it will be accomplished. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

HDRoberts said:


> Alright, I guess no one can explain with clarity where the extra 50 slots come form. I give up. We shall see together in the fall.


As others have commented ...

We know exactly _where_ the 50 slots will come from. They'll come from D12. 

We just don't know exactly _how_ they will come. And all the options have been presented in this thread several times.

And as soon as we see an FCC Filing, we will have much better clarity.

There has been ZERO technical information released for D12 other then the Boeing info that stated that D12 was identical to D10/D11 and is a ground spare. We don't even have a callsign for D12, while we have a callsign for every future BSS satellite (that aren't even built yet).

With the change to actually launch D12 may come technical configuration changes.

All of our discussion is just playful analysis to understand the several orbital slot options.

The one thing that is crystal clear is that there is plenty of underutilized frequency ranges.

The Spaceway's themselves are allocated 2Ghz of the 6Ghz in the home. Most homes (like myself) currently use ZERO of the 2Ghz.

There's also ways to consolidate spotbeams if they go the Ka Lo route.

Several options ... but the frequency allocations are there.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> The Spaceway's themselves are allocated 2Ghz of the 6Ghz in the home. Most homes (like myself) currently use ZERO of the 2Ghz.


Until late last year, I was getting my locals on SW2. Now, they come from D11 instead (two transponders now, in preparation for adding four new locals eventually). But since they've re-jiggered the satellite assignments for my area, that's fully one-third of the available bandwidth that is entirely underutilized for me.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Until late last year, I was getting my locals on SW2. Now, they come from D11 instead (two transponders now, in preparation for adding four new locals eventually). But since they've re-jiggered the satellite assignments for my area, that's fully one-third of the available bandwidth that is entirely underutilized for me.


yep, same here.

And for Spaceway-2, I have 6 transponders of ZERO.

Spaceway-1 has 4 transponders at ZERO and 2 (TP1, TP5) at 95+.


----------



## Sixto

looking at gct's latest list ...

for the spots:
101 has 649 channels.
119 has 465.
d10 has 315.
d11 has 315.
72.5 has 188.
sw1 has 110.
sw2 has 56.

interesting.

makes me think something is going on with sw2. and sw2 only uses 3 transponders (3,5,6).

Edit: sw2 had 93 in november and used all transponders. now 56 and only 3/5/6.


----------



## Sixto

so based on the previous post, why would SW2 go from having a few hundred LiL to 50+ in 3 months?

going to move and co-locate with SW1?

getting re-configured to be co-located with D12?

getting re-configured to be used for some other "new" purpose?


----------



## xrobmn

Sixto said:


> so based on the previous post, why would SW2 go from having a few hundred LiL to 50+ in 3 months?
> 
> going to move and co-locate with SW1?
> 
> getting re-configured to be co-located with D12?
> 
> getting re-configured to be used for some other "new" purpose?


The suspense is killing me  <cheesy 70's mystery tv show music here>

All I do know is Direct always seems to have a few ace's up their sleeve.. So I'll be (im)patiently waiting to see what they do..


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Edit2: sw2 had a 200+ in sept/oct. why changing?


Could it have anything to do with the "spot-beam" issue with D10?

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> Could it have anything to do with the "spot-beam" issue with D10?
> 
> ~Alan


assuming gct's number are correct. both d10 and d11 each now have 315 LiL's so seems like they've balanced the LiL to deal with the D10 issue.

unless I'm reading the spreadsheet wrong it sure seems like sw2 is lightly utilized at the moment.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> looking at gct's latest list ...
> 
> for the spots:
> 101 has 649 channels.
> 119 has 465.
> d10 has 315.
> d11 has 315.
> 72.5 has 188.
> sw1 has 110.
> sw2 has 56.
> 
> interesting.
> 
> makes me think something is going on with sw2. and sw2 only uses 3 transponders (3,5,6).
> 
> Edit: sw2 had 93 in november and used all transponders. now 56 and only 3/5/6.
> 
> Edit2: sw2 had a 200+ in sept/oct. why changing?


And 110?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> assuming gct's number are correct. both d10 and d11 each now have 315 LiL's so seems like they've balanced the LiL to deal with the D10 issue.


D10 and D11 were _ORIGINALLY "supposed"_ to allow them to offer 500 HD-LIL channels from each.



Sixto said:


> unless I'm reading the spreadsheet wrong it sure seems like sw2 is lightly utilized at the moment.


My point was that perhaps the spot-beam "issue" resulted in some bad signal readings in some areas planned for D10, so DirecTV shifted some of their HD-LIL markets from SW2 over to D10, hoping to offer those DMAs via SW2?

While not necessarily some of the DMAs I'm referring to above, note the dates DirecTV has pushed back their HD-LIL DMA launches to:

*Bangor ME* _April 09_
*Beaumont-Port Arthur TX* _June 09_
*Butte-Bozeman MT* _Q1 09_
*Dothan AL* _April 09_
*Harrisonburg VA* _May 09_
*Odessa TX* _Q1 09_
*Palm Springs CA* _Q1 09_

These were originally supposed to be available in November/December of last year. Shifting things around could certainly cause these markets to be pushed back.

_I'm not sure I explained my thinking very well, and given some of Tom's comments, my thinking is probably wrong... even if I wasn't so tired and could clarify my point better... still, I'm hoping what I said above clarified my point a little better._​
~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

theratpatrol said:


> And 110?


There are no spot-beams coming from 110.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

theratpatrol said:


> And 110?


110 only has 3 transponders, no spotbeams, and 9 channels.


----------



## inkahauts

All right.. I love this thread.. and I love to speculate.. And I am going to, even though I have no idea if anything I'm saying is actually possible... So....

I think the first thing we need to answer.. There are 49 spotbeams on EACH of the new sats... D10, D11, and D12. My question is, whats the fewest number of transponder frequencies they can use and still have all 49 filled to capacity on EACH satellite?

Frankly, a lot probably depends on the actual configuration and pointing of the spotbeams, but I wouldn't be surprised if they could get all of the spotbeams running on less than 5 transponders.. Why...

I believe that D9s is the only sat with spotbeams at 101.. And there are 6 on that sat.. And there are 42 spotbeams on that satelite. Assuming that they may have made these spots sizing similar, yet a bit more defined... There is no reason for me to believe that they can't fit them all in in a very small number of trasponders...

Also of note...

They know that in theory they can duplicate anythign they do on D10 on D11, (or D12 and D11, etc) and therefore, you have to start thinking about the fact that you could have twice the frequency space for any one sat spotbeam transponder because you can have the exact same frequency coming from 2 locations and heading into the same home.... which is especiall important in areas that have lots of channels, or multiple DMAs right next to each other that are covered by say only one transponder on any one given sat.

As for why the spaceways are so important.. They can pick and choose where they fire, and what they fire, so in thoery, they can be used to fill in the gaps, and maybe even supply just enough extra bandwidth for one channel in any one given dma.. leaveing the rest of there bandwidth to "advanced features in the future" as people have noted...

And between D10, D11, and the 2 spaceways, they are supposed to be able to transmit 1500 HD LIL channels... Thats one heck of a lot of channels.. and If they can fully utilize all 49 transponders on all three D's at the same time, and each can do 500.. and hopefully only use say 4 or 5 transponders on the loaner sat, and say 6 or 8 from the location that will have two of them parked.. then we are looking at 2000 HD LIL channels... and hopefully still full capability on 42 conus transponders...

One other thing of note.... Why is it that each transponder is 7x the frequency of a uhf or vhf station, (according to Tom's post... http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295) yet they only have 36mhz, and can only show about 5 channels a transponder? And if they each actually have 40mhz of spectrum.. any reason they can't combine say, some sd channels in with hd to fill that last 4mhz or so? And if they did that, then maybe they could free up some transponders on say, 101 and then shoot some HD off those sats?

I swear, its the most complex rubiks cube ever...


----------



## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> *...I believe that D9s is the only sat with spotbeams at 101.. And there are 6 on that sat.. And there are 42 spotbeams on that satelite.* Assuming that they may have made these spots sizing similar, yet a bit more defined... There is no reason for me to believe that they can't fit them all in in a very small number of trasponders...


Then are any spots from the older DIRECTV-4S at 101 no longer used?



> ...And between D10, D11, and the 2 spaceways, they are supposed to be able to transmit 1500 HD LIL channels... Thats one heck of a lot of channels.. and If they can fully utilize all 49 transponders on all three D's at the same time, and each can do 500.. and hopefully only use say 4 or 5 transponders on the loaner sat, and say 6 or 8 from the location that will have two of them parked.. then we are looking at 2000 HD LIL channels... and hopefully still full capability on 42 conus transponders...


Not sure I follow your reasoning/math here, can you rephrase this? 



> ...One other thing of note.... Why is it that each transponder is 7x the frequency of a uhf or vhf station, (according to Tom's post... http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295) yet they only have 36mhz, and can only show about 5 channels a transponder? And if they each actually have 40mhz of spectrum.. any reason they can't combine say, some sd channels in with hd to fill that last 4mhz or so? And if they did that, then maybe they could free up some transponders on say, 101 and then shoot some HD off those sats?


If the reason for the Ka's transponder frequency spacing plan is the same as with C-band for instance, then the additional 4 Mhz (or +/- 2 MHz to either side of a Tp.) are set aside for guard bands to prevent any adjacent transponder channel interference due to uplink transmitter frequency error.

Thus this additional spectrum is not recoverable I'm afraid...

Oh, and Go Lakers!!! as well. Though with the loss of Andrew Bynum (again!) I'm afraid the "Go" has just lost some critical steam...


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> I expect the FCC filings will specify with the clarity we all want how it will be accomplished.


That would be a unique situation indeed if the FCC filings said anything that didn't require an expert to decode.

Fortunately, there are a few here that seem to be pretty adept at FCC speak.


----------



## Tom Robertson

inkahauts said:


> All right.. I love this thread.. and I love to speculate.. And I am going to, even though I have no idea if anything I'm saying is actually possible... So....
> 
> I think the first thing we need to answer.. There are 49 spotbeams on EACH of the new sats... D10, D11, and D12. My question is, whats the fewest number of transponder frequencies they can use and still have all 49 filled to capacity on EACH satellite?
> 
> Frankly, a lot probably depends on the actual configuration and pointing of the spotbeams, but I wouldn't be surprised if they could get all of the spotbeams running on less than 5 transponders.. Why...
> 
> I believe that D9s is the only sat with spotbeams at 101.. And there are 6 on that sat.. And there are 42 spotbeams on that satelite. Assuming that they may have made these spots sizing similar, yet a bit more defined... There is no reason for me to believe that they can't fit them all in in a very small number of trasponders...


Very good analysis 


inkahauts said:


> Also of note...
> 
> They know that in theory they can duplicate anythign they do on D10 on D11, (or D12 and D11, etc) and therefore, you have to start thinking about the fact that you could have twice the frequency space for any one sat spotbeam transponder because you can have the exact same frequency coming from 2 locations and heading into the same home.... which is especiall important in areas that have lots of channels, or multiple DMAs right next to each other that are covered by say only one transponder on any one given sat.
> 
> As for why the spaceways are so important.. They can pick and choose where they fire, and what they fire, so in thoery, they can be used to fill in the gaps, and maybe even supply just enough extra bandwidth for one channel in any one given dma.. leaveing the rest of there bandwidth to "advanced features in the future" as people have noted...
> 
> And between D10, D11, and the 2 spaceways, they are supposed to be able to transmit 1500 HD LIL channels... Thats one heck of a lot of channels.. and If they can fully utilize all 49 transponders on all three D's at the same time, and each can do 500.. and hopefully only use say 4 or 5 transponders on the loaner sat, and say 6 or 8 from the location that will have two of them parked.. then we are looking at 2000 HD LIL channels... and hopefully still full capability on 42 conus transponders...
> 
> One other thing of note.... Why is it that each transponder is 7x the frequency of a uhf or vhf station, (according to Tom's post... http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295) yet they only have 36mhz, and can only show about 5 channels a transponder? And if they each actually have 40mhz of spectrum.. any reason they can't combine say, some sd channels in with hd to fill that last 4mhz or so? And if they did that, then maybe they could free up some transponders on say, 101 and then shoot some HD off those sats?
> 
> I swear, its the most complex rubiks cube ever...


HoTat2 is absolutely correct, the 4mhz are guard bands separating each transponder from interference. That is one reason DIRECTV carved up the bandwidth into fewer chunks that are larger--also means fewer guard bands.

Secondly, when I wrote the analysis on bandwidth, I did not know about nor account for the Forward Error Correction (FEC) bits needed to overcome the errors in transmitting from space. That eats quite a bit of the overall bandwidth of data. DIRECTV has tried various schemes of modulation and FEC to maximize the data rates. So that explains some/most of the difference between the analysis I did and the reality of what we got. (I'm allowing that I might have missed something else explaining more of the difference.)

And yes, very complex Rubiks cube. And I too am still learning from the other great people here. Thanks!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## evan_s

Hmm it is interesting how few locals the Spaceways seem to be hosting currently. That would either indicate that DirecTV still has a lot of locals space to be fired back up or they are planning to do something with them. It does make sense to use as much of the local capacity on d10/d11 as possible since it is more efficient but less flexible. It seems like they are pretty close to moving everything off spaceway 2 and should be able to move all the locals it has off to some combination of spaceway 1, d10 and d11 with out too much difficulty. That would be prefect for moving spaceway 2 to be colocated with spaceway 1 and sticking D12 in the newly empty ka hi slot.

If that was the plan the only thing that seems off is why only say 200 national channels? The only guess I can come up with is with 14tps from d10 and d11 and 5 channels per TP they each only end up hosting 70 channels. I know there has been some speculation where they would be able to get the 10 more channels they would seem to be missing. Maybe they are planning on 210 from the three sats and just rounding down. 200 would seem like a more accurate statement if you are no longer trying to claim the east and west coast Distants as HD channels since most people can not legally get them.


----------



## Sixto

Just looked through the gct 2/1 transponder data again ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151550

If I was to guess just based on this transponder data, I'd say D12 is going to 99° Ka Hi.

Now, based on us thinking that they're not going to adjust the D12 payload then maybe not but ...

D10 and D11 are filling up every LiL transponder from 15-24. Every transponder is in use. Only just a few with a small number of channels.

And Spaceway-2 is reduced as mentioned yesterday.

Geez, why would you load up D10 and D11 on every LiL transponder if just several months later you're going to re-use the frequencies for D12.

And why empty SW2 unless you have some change coming for Ka Hi.

And why touch SW2 at all unless D12 was going to somehow effect Ka Hi.

Or maybe SW2 will be re-tasked for something else?

All this based on today's data ... all subject to change 



Code:


           [U]SW1[/U]     [U]SW2[/U]
TP1         24       0
TP2         21       0 
TP3         18      25
TP4         17       0
TP5         12      20
TP6         18      11

           [U]D10[/U]     [U]D11[/U]
TP15        70      48
TP16        28      45
TP17         2      44
TP18        39      28
TP19        12       6
TP20        39      35
TP21        55      41
TP22         9      22
TP23        36      29
TP24        21      17


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm betting my lunch money that D12 goes into the 99 slot (but then of course....I rarely eat lunch )...


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm betting my lunch money that D12 goes into the 99 slot (but then of course....I rarely eat lunch )...


gonna bet dinner on Ka Lo or Ka Hi?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> gonna bet dinner on Ka Lo or Ka Hi?


Now wait a minute....now we're talkin real money...:lol:

KA Hi..


----------



## Sixto

BTW, as I analyzed it deeper late last night, it did appear that the transponder data (in the other thread) was not totally accurate in mid-2008. It was identifying D10/D11 LiL as SW1/SW2 LiL for transponders 15-24.. Looks like it was corrected in the data after November. 

So SW2 was quite possibly not 200+. But SW2 still did go from 90+ count to 50's since Q4.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> BTW, as I analyzed it deeper late last night, it did appear that the transponder data (in the other thread) was not totally accurate in mid-2008. It was identifying D10/D11 LiL as SW1/SW2 LiL for transponders 15-24.. Looks like it was corrected in the data after November.
> 
> So SW2 was quite possibly not 200+. But SW2 did go from 90+ count to 50's since Q4.


Wouldn't the SW2 reduction come from the offload of alot of HD LILs to the other sats...?


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Wouldn't the SW2 reduction come from the offload of alot of HD LILs to the other sats...?


yep, but the question is why move LiL off SW2? why take 3 of the 6 transponders to zero? unless you were preparing for some change ...

could be many reasons including that they may need to deal with the D10 spotbeam issue and are first loading up D10/D11 before putting the difficult spots on SW1 or SW2. but they could have done that long ago after D10 launched in 2007.

all while D10 & D11 LiL continue to grow and use every available transponder (15-24).

while all of this may lead to the D12 Ka Hi assumption ... it is a leap of faith because then D12 would need to be re-configured, which we originally thought would not happen. but there has been much time to make a change, that SW1/SW2 space is underutilized, even more underutilized now.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> while all of this may lead to the D12 Ka Hi assumption ... it is a leap of faith because then D12 would need to be re-configured, which we originally thought would not happen. but there has been much time to make a change, that SW1/SW2 space is underutilized, even more underutilized now.


Here's my take on it as a former spacecraft engineer . . .

D10/11/12 were all ordered as triplets, to be configured more or less identically. However, the satellites were not built concurrently, but sequentially. D11 was almost certainly built out and completed following analysis of the spotbeam issue with D10 and modified accordingly.

Remember, up to this time, D12 was still ostensibly to be used as a ground spare for D10/11, while there were other FCC applications and plans pending for future BSS use, etc.

At some point, the applications for what was to be D13 were withdrawn and obviously priorities and plans shifted inside Directv for their satellite fleet. That means D12 no longer sits in a climate-controlled clean-room just in case and instead gets repurposed. And that's where we are today.

So what does it take to repurpose a satellite planned for Ka-Lo to actually operate at Ka-Hi. Not much. New transmitter components. Feedhorns and antenna elements optimized for one particular frequency band instead of another, mostly. As Sixto pointed out, there's been ample time to make the configuration changes and tell the suppliers to substitute the new-spec components for the old.

Assuming D12 DOES get flown in a Ka-Hi configuration, realize this: design changes like this happen all the time in industry and it probably didn't cost Boeing or Directv hardly anything extra to change the configuration this far in advance. The suppliers were on the hook to provide the equivalent Ka-Lo optimized components anyway, and there is no particular reason why Ka-Hi optimized widgets should cost any more, really. They should mass about the same, use about the same power, require about the same volume, etc.

Of course, we could all be wrong about this, so who knows?


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm betting my lunch money that D12 goes into the 99 slot (but then of course....I rarely eat lunch )...


You know, I half read this post and considered that you likely spend less than most on lunch, so that isn't that big a deal, and you ended it with you rarely eat lunch so...I suppose, it really is no big deal or you are not really a betting man.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> You know, I half read this post and considered that you likely spend less than most on lunch, so that isn't that big a deal, and you ended it with you rarely eat lunch so...I suppose, it really is no big deal or you are not really a betting man.


Two days in Vegas at the CES seemed to prove that - spent $10 on the slots...

In any case...LameLefty's assessment also makes a whole lot of sense.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Two days in Vegas at the CES seemed to prove that - spent $10 on the slots...
> 
> In any case...LameLefty's assessment also makes a whole lot of sense.


Yep, LameLefty is one smart guy. The combination of folks here too, make this thread a worthy must read on every login.


----------



## dwrats_56

If I am reading this correctly DirecTV 12 at 102.825.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-204A1.pdf


----------



## LameLefty

dwrats_56 said:


> If I am reading this correctly DirecTV 12 at 102.825.
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-204A1.pdf


Nope, sorry. That's for Directv's BSS application (a putative "D13"/future satellite to be named later).

This is interesting though - it's setting aside a previous ruling that found the BSS application deficient. And doing it _nunc pro tunc_ means that this new order has the legal effect of "erasing" the previous rejection, meaning Directv does not "lose its place in line" for BSS slots.


----------



## evan_s

That may be good for DirecTV in the future but is definitely not D12. FYI this was never going to be named D13. That call sign was already assigned to a sat that was suppose to go up to replace the sat at 110 but it was canceled due to tweener licenses granted near by.


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> That may be good for DirecTV in the future but is definitely not D12. FYI this was never going to be named D13. That call sign was already assigned to a sat that was suppose to go up to replace the sat at 110 but it was canceled due to tweener licenses granted near by.


IIRC, S2712 is RB-2 BSS 103°.

RB-1 (S2711) at 99, RB-2 (S2713) at 103, RB-3 (S2242) at 107, RB-4 (S2243) at 107, RB-5 (S2244) at 119. from a while ago ...


----------



## LameLefty

Call me crazy, but I have a really hard time believing Directv will stick with "RB-n" designations once those satellites finally get authorized and under contract. 

Aaaaanyway . . . it's still good news for Directv.


----------



## dwrats_56

LameLefty said:


> Nope, sorry. That's for Directv's BSS application (a putative "D13"/future satellite to be named later).
> 
> This is interesting though - it's setting aside a previous ruling that found the BSS application deficient. And doing it _nunc pro tunc_ means that this new order has the legal effect of "erasing" the previous rejection, meaning Directv does not "lose its place in line" for BSS slots.


Man, I gotta quit glancing at stuff, do a quick post and run out the door.


----------



## inkahauts

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm betting my lunch money that D12 goes into the 99 slot (but then of course....I rarely eat lunch )...


I'd beton it going to 103.. simply because its a little closer tot he middle and possibly better line of sight overall (don't forget Hi and Alaska...)


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> Just looked through the gct 2/1 transponder data again ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151550
> 
> If I was to guess just based on this transponder data, I'd say D12 is going to 99° Ka Hi.
> 
> Now, based on us thinking that they're not going to adjust the D12 payload then maybe not but ...
> 
> D10 and D11 are filling up every LiL transponder from 15-24. Every transponder is in use. Only just a few with a small number of channels.
> 
> And Spaceway-2 is reduced as mentioned yesterday.
> 
> Geez, why would you load up D10 and D11 on every LiL transponder if just several months later you're going to re-use the frequencies for D12.
> 
> And why empty SW2 unless you have some change coming for Ka Hi.
> 
> And why touch SW2 at all unless D12 was going to somehow effect Ka Hi.
> 
> Or maybe SW2 will be re-tasked for something else?
> 
> All this based on today's data ... all subject to change
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [U]SW1[/U]     [U]SW2[/U]
> TP1         24       0
> TP2         21       0
> TP3         18      25
> TP4         17       0
> TP5         12      20
> TP6         18      11
> 
> [U]D10[/U]     [U]D11[/U]
> TP15        70      48
> TP16        28      45
> TP17         2      44
> TP18        39      28
> TP19        12       6
> TP20        39      35
> TP21        55      41
> TP22         9      22
> TP23        36      29
> TP24        21      17


Oh Oh!!! I know I know!!!!

Ok, so we heard today during the earnings call that Directv expects to bring more stuff to ondemand, and make the service FASTER... Maybe they are planing on using SW2 as a high speed download feed for ondemand! We know that was its original purpose anyway.... They could break up the country into 6 or so quadrants, and have a massive amount of bandwidth flowing, allowing them to offer up the start of a newer HD PPV movie say every 10 to 20 mins?

Hey, why not?


----------



## Sixto

inkahauts said:


> Oh Oh!!! I know I know!!!!
> 
> Ok, so we heard today during the earnings call that Directv expects to bring more stuff to ondemand, and make the service FASTER... Maybe they are planing on using SW2 as a high speed download feed for ondemand! We know that was its original purpose anyway.... They could break up the country into 6 or so quadrants, and have a massive amount of bandwidth flowing, allowing them to offer up the start of a newer HD PPV movie say every 10 to 20 mins?
> 
> Hey, why not?


Chase Carey (CEO, 2/10/2009): "We'll launch a satellite later this year that will enable us to continue to add to our HD experience or continue to build on our leadership in sports and add to the richness of our content with events like Friday Night Lights. Our VOD offering will improve in both richness to the offering and functionality in terms of things like faster access and a more integrated experience."

Not exactly clear what "faster access" means ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

inkahauts said:


> Oh Oh!!! I know I know!!!!
> 
> Ok, so we heard today during the earnings call that Directv expects to bring more stuff to ondemand, and make the service FASTER... Maybe they are planing on using SW2 as a high speed download feed for ondemand! We know that was its original purpose anyway.... They could break up the country into 6 or so quadrants, and have a massive amount of bandwidth flowing, allowing them to offer up the start of a newer HD PPV movie say every 10 to 20 mins?
> 
> Hey, why not?


That seems in sync with their long term plans in more than one respect, and also with yesterday's statements in their financial call.


----------



## LameLefty

inkahauts said:


> Oh Oh!!! I know I know!!!!
> 
> Ok, so we heard today during the earnings call that Directv expects to bring more stuff to ondemand, and make the service FASTER... Maybe they are planing on using SW2 as a high speed download feed for ondemand! We know that was its original purpose anyway.... They could break up the country into 6 or so quadrants, and have a massive amount of bandwidth flowing, allowing them to offer up the start of a newer HD PPV movie say every 10 to 20 mins?
> 
> Hey, why not?


I've been predicting something like this for a long time - a "faster than real-time" data dump directly to specific receivers. The recent "unloading" of SW2 seems to fit this idea pretty well.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> I've been predicting something like this for a long time - a "faster than real-time" data dump directly to specific receivers. The recent "unloading" of SW2 seems to fit this idea pretty well.


This makes perfect sense if you look at the data stream numbers, the latency is in decoding, you don't have to decode the stream, you can simply shovel it to the hard drive...  Thus beating the entire decoded stream, which BTW, too, has to be time code-synched, the data stream does not. Also, you can multiplex multiple data items (read shows) into one stream...


----------



## Paul A

I hope someone had Geico!

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2009-02-11-satellites_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip


----------



## smiddy

There goes that "Big Sky" theory, eh?! Amazing!


----------



## Alan Gordon

Yes, I realize this question is _slightly_ off-topic (and one I should know the answer to), but since it's a question regarding DirecTV's 99° orbital location, I'm hoping it's off-topic nature can be overlooked:

Though DirecTV does not offer HD-LIL (or SD-LIL) here, I am surrounded by many markets who have HD-LIL available, or have SD-LIL provided by the KA satellites.

Because of the above, my signal readings on 103(s), light up like a Christmas tree. Some of the signal readings are quite low, going down to the 20s, but many are equal or better than my CONUS readings on 103(c)... though my CONUS readings are a little low as I still have not "tweaked" my dish since D11went up. Still, signal readings on 12 of the 16 spot-beam transponders.

99(s) is quite different though as I can only get a (reliable) signal on ONE transponder. At times when the sky is real clear, I can get more... usually only one more with a very little signal reading, but every now and then, I can pick up three signal readings (only the one with a decent signal), and once, I was able to pick up four... but that's still nothing compared to 103(s).

Now, I can think of multiple reasons why things are the way they are, but I'm curious what other possibilities there might be for DirecTV's favoritism of 103(s) in my area compared to 99(s).... as well as the most likely cause.

~Alan


----------



## jefbal99

Alan Gordon said:


> Yes, I realize this question is _slightly_ off-topic (and one I should know the answer to), but since it's a question regarding DirecTV's 99° orbital location, I'm hoping it's off-topic nature can be overlooked:
> 
> Though DirecTV does not offer HD-LIL (or SD-LIL) here, I am surrounded by many markets who have HD-LIL available, or have SD-LIL provided by the KA satellites.
> 
> Because of the above, my signal readings on 103(s), light up like a Christmas tree. Some of the signal readings are quite low, going down to the 20s, but many are equal or better than my CONUS readings on 103(c)... though my CONUS readings are a little low as I still have not "tweaked" my dish since D11went up. Still, signal readings on 12 of the 16 spot-beam transponders.
> 
> 99(s) is quite different though as I can only get a (reliable) signal on ONE transponder. At times when the sky is real clear, I can get more... usually only one more with a very little signal reading, but every now and then, I can pick up three signal readings (only the one with a decent signal), and once, I was able to pick up four... but that's still nothing compared to 103(s).
> 
> Now, I can think of multiple reasons why things are the way they are, but I'm curious what other possibilities there might be for DirecTV's favoritism of 103(s) in my area compared to 99(s).... as well as the most likely cause.
> 
> ~Alan


No spot beams from 99 pointed at you


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> No spot beams from 99 pointed at you


In fact, if you read some of the posts up-thread, Spaceway 2 at 99 has been "unloaded" quite a bit over the last couple months. Directv has moved a ton of content to the other sats.

We've been speculating why.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jefbal99 said:


> No spot beams from 99 pointed at you


LOL!! Sure, go for the intelligent answer! 

I figured that one out. I was more interested in possible reasons why 103(s) would have so many spot-beams pointed in my direction, but so very few from 99(s).

If it had been the other way around, I might assume D10's spot-beam damage might have something to do with it. If this had been a recent thing, I might assume it might have something to do with the exodus of LIL off of SW2, but this has been the case since before D11 went up (not sure how much before then, possibly since the beginning).

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

LameLefty said:


> In fact, if you read some of the posts up-thread, Spaceway 2 at 99 has been "unloaded" quite a bit over the last couple months. Directv has moved a ton of content to the other sats.
> 
> We've been speculating why.


Yeah, I know (I've been reading), and I agree that the recent Conference Call does seem to indicate their plans for SW2 (and 99°).... which is why I chose now to ask this question (I've been curious for some time).

~Alan


----------



## lwilli201

Alan Gordon said:


> LOL!! Sure, go for the intelligent answer!
> 
> I figured that one out. I was more interested in possible reasons why 103(s) would have so many spot-beams pointed in my direction, but so very few from 99(s).
> 
> If it had been the other way around, I might assume D10's spot-beam damage might have something to do with it. If this had been a recent thing, I might assume it might have something to do with the exodus of LIL off of SW2, but this has been the case since before D11 went up (not sure how much before then, possibly since the beginning).
> 
> ~Alan


I was wondering the same thing. I have 5 spots from 99 (s) in the mid 90's, transponders 16 thru 20. One transponder #2 is 98 on 103 (s). Do not remember seeing such hight numbers on so many spots.


----------



## doctor j

Alan Gordon said:


> Yes, I realize this question is _slightly_ off-topic (and one I should know the answer to), but since it's a question regarding DirecTV's 99° orbital location, I'm hoping it's off-topic nature can be overlooked:
> 
> Though DirecTV does not offer HD-LIL (or SD-LIL) here, I am surrounded by many markets who have HD-LIL available, or have SD-LIL provided by the KA satellites.
> 
> Because of the above, my signal readings on 103(s), light up like a Christmas tree. Some of the signal readings are quite low, going down to the 20s, but many are equal or better than my CONUS readings on 103(c)... though my CONUS readings are a little low as I still have not "tweaked" my dish since D11went up. Still, signal readings on 12 of the 16 spot-beam transponders.
> 
> 99(s) is quite different though as I can only get a (reliable) signal on ONE transponder. At times when the sky is real clear, I can get more... usually only one more with a very little signal reading, but every now and then, I can pick up three signal readings (only the one with a decent signal), and once, I was able to pick up four... but that's still nothing compared to 103(s).
> 
> Now, I can think of multiple reasons why things are the way they are, but I'm curious what other possibilities there might be for DirecTV's favoritism of 103(s) in my area compared to 99(s).... as well as the most likely cause.
> 
> ~Alan


If you really want to study the pattern Try these two links:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?q=my...809285,-96.503906&spn=47.504981,63.017578&z=4

A google map of the HD LIL markets.

and

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151550

gct's great work on transponder maps.
you can localize the spots to the market , satellite , and transponder.

The majority of channels are on D10 and D11 ,not on spaceway 1 or 2.
Spaceway 2 almost empty (56 channels).
D10 and D11 spots very "balanced" , almost identical ; 315 channels

Spotbeam size has a lot to do with why you've got a lot 0f 103's. 99's circle around you father away and you don't see them.

Also i think some of atlanta's channels are shown in chattanooga , therefore, again lots of 103's strong in your area between.

Doctor j


----------



## Alan Gordon

doctor j said:


> Spotbeam size has a lot to do with why you've got a lot 0f 103's. 99's circle around you father away and you don't see them.


This is more the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks! 

I'm curious as to why they would do it this way? If D12 does indeed go to 99°, I wonder if it will be different, or is this an issue with the 99° location?

~Alan


----------



## LameLefty

Alan Gordon said:


> This is more the kind of answer I was looking for. Thanks!
> 
> I'm curious as to why they would do it this way? If D12 does indeed go to 99°, I wonder if it will be different, or is this an issue with the 99° location?
> 
> ~Alan


Don't think it's an issue with the 99 location per se, just with what they are planning to do with the Spaecways post-D12.


----------



## Alan Gordon

LameLefty said:


> Don't think it's an issue with the 99 location per se, just with what they are planning to do with the Spaecways post-D12.


So you think they've been planning on using D12 long before they announced it?

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> So you think they've been planning on using D12 long before they announced it?
> 
> ~Alan


D12 going into orbit was announced on 2/28/2008 so they've had much time (at least a year) to plan.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> D12 going into orbit was announced on 2/28/2008 so they've had much time (at least a year) to plan.


My question has kind of gone on long enough, so I guess it's time to get back on-topic... but I do want to reiterate my point before I leave it alone.

Back when I got my HR20 and KA/KU dish back in Summer 2007, I could (if I remember correctly) get signal readings for one transponder on 99(s). I could get SEVERAL for 103(s). As D10 went up, and more DMAs in my area were launched, transponders continued to light up on 103(s), but not on 99(s). When D11 went up, I expected to get more transponder readings on 99(s), and to a point, I do every now and then get signal readings on a few on a clear day, but the signal readings are less than 10%... when I have MULTIPLE readings on 103(s) with numbers higher than my numbers on 103(c).

My understanding of spot-beams are that they are positioned at multiple points in the country enabling them to re-use frequencies multiple times. At the 119° location which has multiple spot-beams, I get high readings on ALL transponders. At the 101° location which has multiple several spot-beams, I get high readings on all transponders but one (which gets 0). At 103(s), I get signals (mostly high) on 12 of the 16 transponders. At 99(s), I get one transponder reliably, two more on occasion, and one more once.

My question was trying to figure out if there was a reason why 99(s) is so "absent" in my area? Is there a reason why DirecTV have favored 103(s) for this area? Has the reason why DirecTV have not turned on many spot-beams for this area have something to do with not wanting to have to "shuffle" things around post-D12... in which case, did DirecTV know they intended on using D12 months before announcing it on 2/28/2008?

Like I said, it was just something I've been curious about since D11 became operational, and became more curious after 103(s) got even more crowded, and the recent speculations regarding SW2.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> Like I said, it was just something I've been curious about since D11 became operational, and became more curious after 103(s) got even more crowded, and the recent speculations regarding SW2.


Your situation is similar to mine and I'm in a large DMA. I have zero's for 99(s) TP1 thru TP6. And TP15-TP24 only has 4 with a strong signal.

As a point of reference ... SW2 at 99(s) is TP1-TP6, D11 at 99(s) is TP15-TP24, SW1 at 103(s) is TP1-TP6, D10 at 103(s) is TP15-TP24.

I always just figured that the spots were spread across the U.S. and many would be zero. And as we've discussed, SW2 has 3 of the 6 with zero content.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alan Gordon said:


> My question has kind of gone on long enough, so I guess it's time to get back on-topic... but I do want to reiterate my point before I leave it alone.
> 
> Back when I got my HR20 and KA/KU dish back in Summer 2007, I could (if I remember correctly) get signal readings for one transponder on 99(s). I could get SEVERAL for 103(s). As D10 went up, and more DMAs in my area were launched, transponders continued to light up on 103(s), but not on 99(s). When D11 went up, I expected to get more transponder readings on 99(s), and to a point, I do every now and then get signal readings on a few on a clear day, but the signal readings are less than 10%... when I have MULTIPLE readings on 103(s) with numbers higher than my numbers on 103(c).
> 
> My understanding of spot-beams are that they are positioned at multiple points in the country enabling them to re-use frequencies multiple times. At the 119° location which has multiple spot-beams, I get high readings on ALL transponders. At the 101° location which has multiple several spot-beams, I get high readings on all transponders but one (which gets 0). At 103(s), I get signals (mostly high) on 12 of the 16 transponders. At 99(s), I get one transponder reliably, two more on occasion, and one more once.
> 
> My question was trying to figure out if there was a reason why 99(s) is so "absent" in my area? Is there a reason why DirecTV have favored 103(s) for this area? Has the reason why DirecTV have not turned on many spot-beams for this area have something to do with not wanting to have to "shuffle" things around post-D12... in which case, did DirecTV know they intended on using D12 months before announcing it on 2/28/2008?
> 
> Like I said, it was just something I've been curious about since D11 became operational, and became more curious after 103(s) got even more crowded, and the recent speculations regarding SW2.
> 
> ~Alan


I'd like to take the "liberty of bullshyting you" with a convoluted answer describing the angles of 103° crossing with 99° to the more southern states works much better than the more direct shot as the dish curvature was designed to work on shallower angles slightly better than the sharper angles. This design as to give the more northern states better rainfade resistance, where the angles are naturally shallower, of course.

But as I said, that would all be BS...  (So far as I know that is...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Your situation is similar to mine and I'm in a large DMA. I have zero's for 99(s) TP1 thru TP6. And TP15-TP24 only has 4 with a strong signal.


Right now I have zeros on all transponders but one.



Sixto said:


> As a point of reference ... SW2 at 99(s) is TP1-TP6, D11 at 99(s) is TP15-TP24, SW1 at 103(s) is TP1-TP6, D10 at 103(s) is TP15-TP24.
> 
> I always just figured that the spots were spread across the U.S. and many would be zero. And as we've discussed, SW2 has 3 of the 6 with zero content.


I wouldn't think anything of it, and like I said earlier, didn't for some time, but I was confused why I get such a large amount of signals from every other orbital location with a spot-beam satellite, and was curious if there was any reason why 99(s) was always so barren here.

BTW, my one reliable signal from 99(s) is TP3, so it appears the signal is coming from SW2.



Tom Robertson said:


> I'd like to take the "liberty of bullshyting you" with a convoluted answer describing the angles of 103° crossing with 99° to the more southern states works much better than the more direct shot as the dish curvature was designed to work on shallower angles slightly better than the sharper angles. This design as to give the more northern states better rainfade resistance, where the angles are naturally shallower, of course.
> 
> But as I said, that would all be BS...  (So far as I know that is...)


The great thing about a convoluted BS answer, is it is often convoluted enough that the person receiving said answer is often confused enough by it to take it as the truth... so thanks for telling me in advance that it's BS! 

~Alan<~~~~~~~~~~Who now returns you to your regularly scheduled program...


----------



## P Smith

Alan, you could cut 66% of your posting by providing screenshot(s) with all that tpns and SS.


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> I'd like to take the "liberty of bullshyting you" with a convoluted answer describing the angles of 103° crossing with 99° to the more southern states works much better than the more direct shot as the dish curvature was designed to work on shallower angles slightly better than the sharper angles.


I think it has more to do with spotbeams at an angle being ovals that cover more area as opposed to a circle which represents the absolute minimum coverage area.

The angle or position that the signals hit the dish is the same because the dish is always facing the satellites (facilitated by azimuth, elevation and tilt adjustments). The more you shoot across the atmosphere, the greater the dissipation.


----------



## Sixto

been mostly quiet ...

from today (2/26/2009):"REQUEST FOR SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORITY

DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") hereby requests Special Temporary Authority ("STA") for up to 60 days beginning March 4, 2009 to conduct on-site testing of the 9.2-meter Ka-band earth station antenna recently installed at DIRECTV's Long Beach, CA site, while its license application is being processed (see File No. SES-LIC-20090205-00147). During these tests, the earth station will communicate with the SPACEWAY 2 satellite within the parameters set forth in the above referenced application. In addition, the antenna will be rotated to zenith - directed away from the geostationary arc - to test its capability to sustain full-power operations over an extended period (approximately 24 hours).

The requested STA would serve the public interest by allowing DIRECTV to perform the testing necessary to establish the performance of its earth station antenna and resolve any issues before this earth station goes into service as part of the ongoing enhancement of DIRECTV's direct-to-home satellite system. Accordingly, DIRECTV respectfully requests that the Commission grant this STA request as expeditiously as possible."​


----------



## LameLefty

Interesting. I suppose this must be connected in some way with the recent "unloading" of SW2 . . . Hmmm.


----------



## lwilli201

Referenced File Number:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-288551A1.pdf

The title says Satellite Radio applications however some applications seem to be for digital video with associated audio. (Directv application starts on page 18)


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> been mostly quiet ...
> 
> from today (2/26/2009):"REQUEST FOR SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORITY
> 
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") hereby requests Special Temporary Authority ("STA") for up to 60 days beginning March 4, 2009 to conduct on-site testing of the 9.2-meter Ka-band earth station antenna recently installed at DIRECTV's Long Beach, CA site, while its license application is being processed (see File No. SES-LIC-20090205-00147). During these tests, the earth station will communicate with the SPACEWAY 2 satellite within the parameters set forth in the above referenced application. In addition, the antenna will be rotated to zenith - directed away from the geostationary arc - to test its capability to sustain full-power operations over an extended period (approximately 24 hours).
> 
> The requested STA would serve the public interest by allowing DIRECTV to perform the testing necessary to establish the performance of its earth station antenna and resolve any issues before this earth station goes into service as part of the ongoing enhancement of DIRECTV's direct-to-home satellite system. Accordingly, DIRECTV respectfully requests that the Commission grant this STA request as expeditiously as possible."​


Have we seen anything else on this yet? its only 2 days away...


----------



## Sixto

inkahauts said:


> Have we seen anything else on this yet? its only 2 days away...


yep. there were other filings with the details. didn't seem like much. http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-160224


----------



## Sixto

been checking 5 fcc areas daily ... still not a hint of any info. they're good at keeping a secret!


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> been checking 5 fcc areas daily ... still not a hint of any info. they're good at keeping a secret!


Yeah, I've been checking too. Still no word on a tentative launch date beyond "end of September" either.


----------



## Sixto

I thought tonight was the night ...

New news ... a new Ka Satellite ... but it's ...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> I thought tonight was the night ...
> 
> New news ... a new Ka Satellite ... but it's ...


But its what??? Do tell!


----------



## Sixto

And the answer is ... DirecTV 97W!

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-162026

"Application for Authority to Launch and Operate DirecTV 97W, a Ka-Band Satellite, at 97° W.L."

"DirecTV 97W will consist of a geostationary satellite located at the nominal 97° W.L. orbital location and associated ground station equipment. DIRECTV 97W is designed to provide DTH service in the FSS Ka-band (18.3-18.8 GHz and 19.7-20.2 GHz (space-to-Earth) and 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-30.0 GHz (Earth-to-space)). The onstation Telemetry, Tracking and Control ("TT&C") functions will be provided at the edges of these same frequency bands.

The DIRECTV 97W satellite is capable of supporting 48 Ka-band transponders (24 LHCP and 24 RHCP) providing coverage via a national beam. The national coverage beam is designed to provide coverage to all 50 states (CONUS, Alaska and Hawaii) and will carry national HD programming material. All national programming material will be distributed from the DIRECTV broadcast centers in Los Angeles, CA (LABC) and Castle Rock, CO (CRBC). Using these uplink facilities, the DIRECTV 97W system and associated ground Ka-band assets will be capable of transmitting over 200 channels of HD programming."

"DirecTV has not yet contracted for the construction of the DIRECTV 97W satellite ..."


----------



## Sixto

There's also a footnote on page-3: "See Grant Stamp, IBFS File No. SAT-LOA-20030827-00186 (issued Mar. 8, 2004) (establishing launch and operate deadline of March 8, 2009, and stating that failure to meet this milestone “shall render this authorization null and void”)."

Looks like they took EchoStar's slot ...

"Echostar-97W must be constructed, launched, and placed into operation in accordance with the technical parameters and terms and conditions of this authorization by these specified time periods following the date of authorization:
a. Execute a binding contract for construction within one year (3/8/2005)
b. Complete the Critical Design Review within two years (3/8/2006)
c. Commence construction within three years (3/8/2007)
d. Launch and begin operations within five years (3/8/2009)

Man, I thought tonight was the night ... noticed a new satellite ... a new Ka band satellite ... a new DirecTV call-sign ...

Ouch!!! It wasn't D12 ... 

But hopefully soon ...


----------



## Smthkd

Seems to me like it is for D12 but with a new name for the Sat. If you noticed all this information they are trying to get approved sounds generic so they can get access to the location. Once approved, they may put D12 there instead! Can they not do that!? If I remember did not D* say they were halting any new sat builds in this economy? And its mighty suspicious that this sat app for 97W will "enhance Directv HD programming to 200 HD channels" like our beloved D12!!! Hmmmmmmm!


----------



## Sixto

Smthkd said:


> Seems to me like it is for D12 but with a new name for the Sat. If you noticed all this information they are trying to get approved sounds generic so they can get access to the location. Once approved, they may put D12 there instead! Can they not do that!? If I remember did not D* say they were halting any new sat builds in this economy? And its mighty suspicious that this sat app for 97W will "enhance Directv HD programming to 200 HD channels" like our beloved D12!!! Hmmmmmmm!


"DirecTV has not yet contracted for the construction of the DIRECTV 97W satellite ...".

D12 has been built.

It's appears that EchoStar's filing expired and DirecTV quickly took the spot (for the future).


----------



## evan_s

Smthkd said:


> Seems to me like it is for D12 but with a new name for the Sat. If you noticed all this information they are trying to get approved sounds generic so they can get access to the location. Once approved, they may put D12 there instead! Can they not do that!? If I remember did not D* say they were halting any new sat builds in this economy? And its mighty suspicious that this sat app for 97W will "enhance Directv HD programming to 200 HD channels" like our beloved D12!!! Hmmmmmmm!


I don't think it's D12. Infact with the application info provided I'd have to say for sure it isn't D12.

1) They say it hasn't been constructed yet.

2) They couldn't be planning a launch this year for an orbital slot they didn't already have approval for and haven't even applied for until now. This is the government. They don't work that fast.

3) They list the frequencies as both Ka Hi and Ka Lo while D9 and D10 are only Ka Lo and don't even fully utilize that by themselves.

4) They say it is capable of supporting nothing but CONUS tps but does so for all 48 Tps in both Ka Hi and Ka Lo hence the over 200 HD channels from just this sat.

The sat they spell out in the application is definitely one heck of a sat and clearly outclasses what D10, D11 and D12 are capable of and if put in service as described would on it's own provide more national channels than the other three put together could provide. (as configured each provides 14 tps providing only 42 total conus tps unless they use spares)

5) The biggest reason why this couldn't be D12 is 97w would require a new LNB and they wouldn't able to swap out all the sl5's and sl3's by the end of this year for the new channel it's suppose to provide. The conversion to new LNBs that could pick up 97w would have to be a long term project.

As far as the canceling spending on new sats look at Dish's time line. 1 year to sign a contract for the sat to be built. 2 years to design it. 3 years to start building it and 5 years for it launch and be in operation. Those are all from the time of approval not from the time of application. On that time line it could be 2015 before DirecTV would need to launch the sat and if things continue to look poor for the economy they can always just fail to meet the deadlines and let the license expire. At the worst they have a full year after approval before they have to even sign a contract which would seem to be the first required outlay of money beyond just filling the app. They want to get the application in now to give themselves the option before someone else files an application and takes it. They have done the same thing with all the BSS licenses around their 99/101/103 core grouping. 97/99/101/103 would make for a pretty good grouping and should provide a huge amount of total bandwidth for DirecTV to work with.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Good find, Sixto.

This is not D12.

evan_s is correct about the timelines, that is the standard satellite milestone timeline for an approved license. (And Echostar likely lost some milestone deposits for failing to meet the deadlines, ~$3M I think.)

This might be backhauling? But 101 Ka to the home would need a new LNB (but not a new dish.) 

Curiouser and Curiouser 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Good find, Sixto.
> 
> This is not D12.
> 
> evan_s is correct about the timelines, that is the standard satellite milestone timeline for an approved license. (And Echostar likely lost some milestone deposits for failing to meet the deadlines, ~$3M I think.)
> 
> This might be backhauling? But 101 Ka to the home would need a new LNB (but not a new dish.)
> 
> Curiouser and Curiouser
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I don't think it's for backhauling, but rather a replacement for the now-lapsed plans for the FSS-band Directv 13. evan_s laid out the timelines rather well - this satellite is probably planned for launch in the '13/14 timeframe, when D10 is nearing its mid-life point and when the Spaceways will be nudging towards old age.


----------



## evan_s

Tom Robertson said:


> This might be backhauling? But 101 Ka to the home would need a new LNB (but not a new dish.)
> 
> Curiouser and Curiouser
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The application clearly says service to the home and over 200 conus channels provided by the sat. Using Ka at either 97w or 101 would require a LNB swap and since D7 & D8 both provide Ku for 101 and Ka backhauling it would make sense to keep that there and utilize the sat resources there and use 97w for expanding conus capacity.



> I don't think it's for backhauling, but rather a replacement for the now-lapsed plans for the FSS-band Directv 13.


D13 was a planned replacement for 110 that got canceled due to tweener licenses being granted. The BSS application that directv lost got reevaluated and they are back in place for that last I saw. Sixto posted the fcc filing earlier in the thread. All the assorted BSS sats had RB call signs.

Over all I think DirecTv is just applying for any bandwidth they can in their core grouping to make sure they have plenty available in the future.

I wonder what is up with Ka at 105. There should be another license there.


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> D13 was a planned replacement for 110 that got canceled due to tweener licenses being granted. The BSS application that directv lost got reevaluated and they are back in place for that last I saw. Sixto posted the fcc filing earlier in the thread. All the assorted BSS sats had RB call signs.
> 
> Over all I think DirecTv is just applying for any bandwidth they can in their core grouping to make sure they have plenty available in the future.
> 
> I wonder what is up with Ka at 105. There should be another license there.


Yeah, you're right about the BSS sats and RB call signs. I forgot all that.

What makes you think there should be a 105 license? Anyone want to dig around the ICC archives and see what that slot is used for currently?


----------



## evan_s

Well the spacings for Ka Licenses is 2 degrees hence 97,99,101, and 103 as known licenses. 105 could be allocated to canada just like some DBS slots are or it could be licensed for something besides Sat TV service. I'd assume there are a whole bunch of other ones too, 91/93/95/107/109 etc, but 105 would seem to be other obvious interest for DirecTV trying to keep their core sats close together.


----------



## woj027

Could 97 degrees serve Latin America?


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> been mostly quiet ...
> 
> from today (2/26/2009):"REQUEST FOR SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORITY
> 
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") hereby requests Special Temporary Authority ("STA") for up to 60 days beginning March 4, 2009 to conduct on-site testing of the 9.2-meter Ka-band earth station antenna recently installed at DIRECTV's Long Beach, CA site, while its license application is being processed (see File No. SES-LIC-20090205-00147). During these tests, the earth station will communicate with the SPACEWAY 2 satellite within the parameters set forth in the above referenced application. In addition, the antenna will be rotated to zenith - directed away from the geostationary arc - to test its capability to sustain full-power operations over an extended period (approximately 24 hours).
> 
> The requested STA would serve the public interest by allowing DIRECTV to perform the testing necessary to establish the performance of its earth station antenna and resolve any issues before this earth station goes into service as part of the ongoing enhancement of DIRECTV's direct-to-home satellite system. Accordingly, DIRECTV respectfully requests that the Commission grant this STA request as expeditiously as possible."​


Anyone else notice3 HIGH signal strength on SW2 on transponders 1 and 6, which I have not seen before? Also, suddenly, several other spot transponders on D11 are at a high strength... Wonder what they are testing...


----------



## Sixto

inkahauts said:


> Anyone else notice3 HIGH signal strength on SW2 on transponders 1 and 6, which I have not seen before? Also, suddenly, several other spot transponders on D11 are at a high strength... Wonder what they are testing...


SW2 tp1 thru tp6 all zero here. SW1 tp1 & tp5 high, all else zero.

also found some interesting info last night but it just confirmed that RB-1, RB-2, RB-3, RB-4, and 97W are the only non-launched DirecTV satellites in the pipeline with the FCC, in official databases that we have access to.

D12 has been kept a VERY good secret.


----------



## Sixto

Now assuming it's going to 103°, but I need to find proof.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Now assuming it's going to 103°, but I need to find proof.


...or at least in that immediate neighborhood...


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> 2/1/2009:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [U]SW1[/U]     [U]SW2[/U]
> TP1         24       0
> TP2         21       0
> TP3         18      25
> TP4         17       0
> TP5         12      20
> TP6         18      11
> --      --
> 110      56
> 
> [U]D10[/U]     [U]D11[/U]
> TP15        70      48
> TP16        28      45
> TP17         2      44
> TP18        39      28
> TP19        12       6
> TP20        39      35
> TP21        55      41
> TP22         9      22
> TP23        36      29
> TP24        21      17
> --      --
> 311     315
> 
> Total: 792


With the latest 3/16/2009 GCT spotbeam data: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=154564

fairly similar ...


Code:


           [U]SW1[/U]     [U]SW2[/U]
TP1         24       0
TP2         21       0 
TP3         18      25
TP4         19       0
TP5         12      20
TP6         15      11
            --      --
           109      56

           [U]D10[/U]     [U]D11[/U]
TP15        68      48
TP16        28      46
TP17         4      44
TP18        39      29
TP19        12       9
TP20        34      36
TP21        55      41
TP22         9      22
TP23        37      25
TP24        22      17
            --      --
           308     317

Total:790


----------



## LameLefty

So . . . have you done a gross count to see what's happened to total channel count? 'Cause it looks like it's gone _down_ when you add in the decreases on D10/11.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> So . . . have you done a gross count to see what's happened to total channel count? 'Cause it looks like it's gone _down_ when you add in the decreases on D10/11.


added totals to the post. overall count went down. it's based on the gct spreadsheet. need to spend some time trying to figure out what went down and why. was just a quick pass.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> added totals to the post. overall count went down. it's based on the gct spreadsheet. need to spend some time trying to figure out what went down and why. was just a quick pass.


Upon thinking it over, it makes me wonder if Directv didn't remove the many "test" channels they had in markets to get ready for the aborted Feb '09 digital transition. For instance, there were four channels up for additional locals in the Nashville market back last fall that were NOT listed the last time I dug through gct's spreadsheets a few weeks ago. Perhaps that's it?


----------



## doctor j

I've not dissected the channel count overall on this latest gct update but there were many "test" channels dropped between late december list and early february list. Birmingham and Nashville among many.

Doctor j



LameLefty said:


> Upon thinking it over, it makes me wonder if Directv didn't remove the many "test" channels they had in markets to get ready for the aborted Feb '09 digital transition. For instance, there were four channels up for additional locals in the Nashville market back last fall that were NOT listed the last time I dug through gct's spreadsheets a few weeks ago. Perhaps that's it?


----------



## P Smith

Sorry for bringing back to the topic , 
but wouldn't be beneficial for our members watch future activation D12 at orbit ? 
Could we find some volunteer(s) who likes to produce spectrum diagrams during future tests on D12 and at beginning of its real work ?
[If you're interested to get BLSA board, raise your hand ]


----------



## Sixto

gct said:


> mikeyd1276 and LameLefty,
> 
> You are both absolutely correct. Sometime during the process of my turning the crank on the datagrinder, I lost 172 channels. These are all LIL channels for Network Numbers 632 through 646. So if others noticed missing channels too, you are right.
> 
> The problem is purely mine in parsing the data. The raw data was all there.
> 
> I hope to have corrected documents uploaded by tomorrow early evening at the latest.
> 
> Again - sorry for the error -
> gct


Based on the corrected data, have updated the LiL post above. Numbers now same as previous.

Still interesting that Spaceway numbers remain low, especially SW2.


----------



## Sixto

Moving the licenses around: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-780A1.pdf

Nothing new with D12 yet.


----------



## smiddy

Man, you'd think something would pop up for DirecTV 12 already. If it is September as everyone guesses, then we likely won't see any filings until June or July, right?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Man, you'd think something would pop up for DirecTV 12 already. If it is September as everyone guesses, then we likely won't see any filings until June or July, right?


Not necessarily...in the past....90 days was enough time.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Man, you'd think something would pop up for DirecTV 12 already. If it is September as everyone guesses, then we likely won't see any filings until June or July, right?


It seems to me that Directv and Boeing have a pretty solid working relationship with the FCC by now (and I'd say that goes to all satcom providers and manufacturers who've been doing this for long). I strongly suspect there's a lot of unofficial interaction between the parties and the FCC technical staffers for months and years leading up to the actual filing of requests to the Commission itself, making the paperwork rather _pro forma_ (there I go throwing Latin in, just because  ). I don't know if we'll see paperwork until perhaps as late as August or even early September.


----------



## harsh

smiddy said:


> If it is September as everyone guesses, then we likely won't see any filings until June or July, right?


From the recent postings at nasaspaceflight.com, it would appear that the Proton-M/Briz-M schedule is slipping a little bit. Sirius FM-5 has moved out bit and Nimiq 5 is scheduled for September as well.

8 April 3 Eutelsat W2A 
middle of May ProtoStar 2
June 29 Sirius FM-5 (was beginning of June)
July 15 - August 15 AsiaSat 5 (likely towards latter?)
September Nimiq 5
end of September DirecTV 12
fourth quarter Arabsat-5A
fourth quarter Intelsat 16


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> It seems to me that Directv and Boeing have a pretty solid working relationship with the FCC by now (and I'd say that goes to all satcom providers and manufacturers who've been doing this for long). I strongly suspect there's a lot of unofficial interaction between the parties and the FCC technical staffers for months and years leading up to the actual filing of requests to the Commission itself, making the paperwork rather _pro forma_ (there I go throwing Latin in, just because  ). I don't know if we'll see paperwork until perhaps as late as August or even early September.


Pro forma, is that like or near a priori knowledge? 

Well, it is true, but there is likely several bureaucratic processes within all facets of getting this to be ok'd, combined on Boeing's side, DirecTV's side, and the FCC. In that I suspect that through all those chains of communications, folks are working closely so that when the time comes they've essentially to rubber stamp it. I wish we had an insider to give us tidbits of information.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> From the recent postings at nasaspaceflight.com, it would appear that the Proton-M/Briz-M schedule is slipping a little bit. Sirius FM-5 has moved out bit and Nimiq 5 is scheduled for September as well.
> 
> 8 April 3 Eutelsat W2A
> middle of May ProtoStar 2
> June 29 Sirius FM-5 (was beginning of June)
> July 15 - August 15 AsiaSat 5 (likely towards latter?)
> September Nimiq 5
> end of September DirecTV 12
> fourth quarter Arabsat-5A
> fourth quarter Intelsat 16


September is still September....it has been September for some time now.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> September is still September....it has been September for some time now.


Yeah, and for the benefit of certain basset hound lurking around here, SiriusXM has had a whole slew of independent issues of its own (not the least of which is that until a week or two ago its stock price had been flirting with 13 cents a share for most of the last four or five months . . .  To the extent their particular launch is slipping it's quite likely that it's a result of delayed progress payments to the manufacturer or ILS, not due to any systemic slowdown on the part of ILS. The last Proton/Briz failure was several launches ago and none of the recent launches have had any issues.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> September is still September....it has been September for some time now.


If you do the math, there's not really much chance of squeezing in two launches in September if the previous launch is near the middle of August.

In looking back, the fastest turnaround has been 14 days between launches. Most launches have been _at least_ a month apart.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> If you do the math, there's not really much chance of squeezing in two launches in September if the previous launch is near the middle of August.
> 
> In looking back, the fastest turnaround has been 14 days between launches. Most launches have been _at least_ a month apart.


I seem to also remember you telling us D10 couldn't POSSIBLY be moved to its final slot and begin testing as quickly as it did, too, back in the late summer of 2007.

Needless to say, we ought to just wait and see what happens.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Needless to say, we ought to just wait and see what happens.


Certainly that's the only true "predictor" of actual performance, but I think it may be helpful to temper expectations with the judicious application of history.


----------



## QuickDrop

LameLefty said:


> I seem to also remember you telling us D10 couldn't POSSIBLY be moved to its final slot and begin testing as quickly as it did, too, back in the late summer of 2007.
> 
> Needless to say, we ought to just wait and see what happens.


Did he say that about D10 too? I distinctly remember him not getting the special testing D11 was doing and saying in July 2008 that it would take two to three months for D11 to begin broadcasting.

I do think there's a probable chance that D12 won't launch exactly on time, but by his own facts and his own math late September is entirely feasible. I would rather be a bit too optimistic than automatically always assume the worst.


----------



## harsh

I happened upon this text from the recent DIRECTV 10K filing. I'm thinking that the orbital slot information must be in error:


DIRECTV Holdings Form 10K said:


> DIRECTV 12 is planned for launch in the second half of 2009. DIRECTV 12 will operate from our 101° WL orbital location after successful completion of in-orbit testing. DIRECTV 12 will provide us with increased capability for local and national HD channels, as well as capacity for new interactive and enhanced services once it becomes operational.


----------



## P Smith

Why not, it will be perfect Ka trio - 99/101/103.


----------



## Sixto

very interesting (maybe) ... heading out for day ... will look later ... interesting ...


----------



## harsh

P Smith said:


> Why not, it will be perfect Ka trio - 99/101/103.


1. Too close.

2. WB68 stack plan wouldn't seem to support it.

Can Ka and Ku even be done with a single horn for the same slot?


----------



## Curtis0620

*From 10K*
In 2009, we expect to begin broadcasting movies in 1080p high-definition as well as introduce a new feature called Score Guide which will provide customers with instant access and up-to-the-minute game scores from the major sports leagues at the touch of a button.

Currently we have several applications pending before the FCC, including applications to launch and operate future satellites to support DIRECTV's services


----------



## evan_s

harsh said:


> 1. Too close.
> 
> 2. WB68 stack plan wouldn't seem to support it.
> 
> Can Ka and Ku even be done with a single horn for the same slot?


1. Isn't an issue. 2 degrees is the spacing for KA sats and Directv does have the ka license at 101.

2. Would definitely be an issue. They would have to do something major with the stack plan.

The ones you missed are

a) ka at 101 is already use for backhaul via d7 and d8

b) everyones lnbs would have to be swapped before anyone could receive ka from 101 from all indications we have. Would take to long and cost too much for that to possibly be the plan.


----------



## P Smith

harsh said:


> 1. Too close.
> 
> 2. WB68 stack plan wouldn't seem to support it.
> 
> Can Ka and Ku even be done with a single horn for the same slot?


I don't see much problem with 2° spacing using 1m with HH-motor, AU-9 is close to that size.
Stack plan could be done using new kind of 'BBC-2'.
AU-9 use one feedhorn for 99°/101°/103° already.

I feel the AU-9 triple LNBF didn't say last word about Ka from 101W. Could be some unknown provision inside.


----------



## bobnielsen

harsh said:


> 1. Too close.
> 
> 2. WB68 stack plan wouldn't seem to support it.
> 
> Can Ka and Ku even be done with a single horn for the same slot?


I have used quad-ridged waveguide feed horns which worked from 2-18 GHz. They were pretty large (about a foot long) but one for 12-20 might be practical.


----------



## Tom Robertson

My guess is D12 will not be going to 101°.

I think DIRECTV _could_ engineer new LNBs to feed Ka and Ku from 101°, but I don't think they are ready to do tyat.

I think there is still room at 99° and 103°.

So I suspect this is an error.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> My guess is D12 will not be going to 101°.
> 
> I think DIRECTV _could_ engineer new LNBs to feed Ka and Ku from 101°, but I don't think they are ready to do tyat.
> 
> I think there is still room at 99° and 103°.
> 
> So I suspect this is an error.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Kinda what I was thinking...figuring 103 is the likely suspect location.


----------



## bobnielsen

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Kinda what I was thinking...figuring 103 is the likely suspect location.


That was the previous consensus, I recall. As long as the typo wasn't in a FCC filing....


----------



## Sixto

Been away ... now have some time to focus on this "new" D12 discovery.

So the exact quote is: "DIRECTV 12 will operate from our 101° WL orbital location".

And it's a quote from a formal DirecTV document filed with the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC) on 2/27/2009. And no corrections that can be found.

So either it's a typo (that's a major typo!) or there's some good secret stuff going on (which would be very exciting).

If we assume (just for a second) that it's not a typo, then (as others have mentioned) we'd need some tweaks to the stack plan, but much more interestingly we'd need a Ka/Ku LNB. 

I remember a while back that someone disassembled the latest LNB's (at the time) and nothing new was found. I wonder if anything has changed.

While on the road since the discovery yesterday, have given this alot of thought, and it actually wouldn't totally shock me if 101° is true. It does seem VERY unlikely, but with the recent 97W filing and the other RB-x satellites pending approval, we'd eventually need a new LNB setup anyway. But that's still several years away before 97W and the RB's, but it just seems like a fairly major miss to have such a significant typo in an SEC filing. I'm sure there are many other typo's in the past, but having the wrong slot listed for a $100M+ satellite seems odd.

One other thought ... was that maybe they meant 101° as being more the generic "main" location ... somewhat short-hand for 99°/101°/103°. Such as meaning that it's not going to the secondary locations at 110° or 119°, which are not the "main" locations. But even that seems like a stretch, but maybe the explanation. Or maybe it really is a typo ... 

In the meantime, will try to verify ...


----------



## harsh

The other somewhat incredible part of this is that they are claiming that it will operate from a particular slot seemingly without any authorization to do so.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> The other somewhat incredible part of this is that they are claiming that it will operate from a particular slot seemingly without any authorization to do so.


Why is that so incredible? They have licenses to the slots. And enough experience with the FCC, especially in well understood frequency bands, to likely be able to file this a month before launch. (Tho I don't expect them to wait that long at all.)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bobnielsen said:


> That was the previous consensus, I recall. As long as the typo wasn't in a FCC filing....


Good point...but they could also amend that filing prior to launch to get the approval within a 30 day window....obviously, they have something up their sleeve, like transponder moves or significant content source shifts between the birds.


----------



## smiddy

Is there a possibility they would replace the current 101 satellite? If they say change the data stream to something faster than what is there it opens up a lot of possibilities, assuming this is a replacement.


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> They have licenses to the slots.


Having a license for a band and getting a particular satellite approved for operation in it aren't the same thing.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Having a license for a band and getting a particular satellite approved for operation in it aren't the same thing.


plenty of time to get D12 approved at whatever slot it's going to. was expecting it already but 30-90 days prior is fine (especially when you already have and are using the license).


----------



## harsh

smiddy said:


> Is there a possibility they would replace the current 101 satellite?


Unless they make some serious modifications to the plan and construction of DIRECTV 12, I don't see it replacing one or more of a group mostly Ku band birds. I can't imagine that changing frequency bands from Ka to Ku is something that they can do in-orbit.

Obviously this is all based on the assumption that DIRECTV 12 continues to be a much-needed team member and backup to the existing Ka constellation. If it weren't, I think we would have already seen some filings.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> was expecting it already but 30-90 days prior is fine (especially when you already have and are using the license).


Do they have a license for downlink also or just backhaul?

I was of the impression that the satellite had to be approved for a particular purpose far in advance. Seems like they didn't wait this long when they repurposed the Spaceways (not that they have any intention of repurposing DIRECTV 12).


----------



## Sixto

gotta break out the x-ray vision on the latest and greatest:  





doubt we'll find anything but would be interesting to try


----------



## P Smith

Just heat the plastic cap and remove it - inside of the feed-horn you will see enough to first conclusion.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> Do they have a license for downlink also or just backhaul?
> 
> I was of the impression that the satellite had to be approved for a particular purpose far in advance. Seems like they didn't wait this long when they repurposed the Spaceways (not that they have any intention of repurposing DIRECTV 12).


At 99°, 101°, and 103° DIRECTV has blanket licenses for both backhaul and to home in the KA band. All they need now is a (relatively) simple launch and operate authorization. (Obviously, simple is very relative--I can read the stuff, but I'm not nearly ready to write one.) 

Granted--if DIRECTV hadn't done a bunch of these and didn't have great engineers and lawyers, they would be wise to apply now. Since they do have good experienced teams and a good relationship with the FCC, I'm betting the lead time is as much dictated by the launch company's requirements for authorization as anything.

And how many behind the scenes "heads up" discussions are underway already? 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## dcowboy7

so for us non-rocket scientists what does this mean in understandable english ? :hurah:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> gotta break out the x-ray vision on the latest and greatest:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> doubt we'll find anything but would be interesting to try


Nice to see these units more and more weather resistant in their construction.


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> Unless they make some serious modifications to the plan and construction of DIRECTV 12, I don't see it replacing one or more of a group mostly Ku band birds. I can't imagine that changing frequency bands from Ka to Ku is something that they can do in-orbit.
> 
> Obviously this is all based on the assumption that DIRECTV 12 continues to be a much-needed team member and backup to the existing Ka constellation. If it weren't, I think we would have already seen some filings.


The filings should start flowing within 90 days of launch, I would think so we should know fairly soon.


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> Obviously, simple is very relative--I can read the stuff, but I'm not nearly ready to write one.


Actually, there is a whole spectrum management department in Boeing that deals with this stuff, I would suspect that since you _can_ read one, you can actually know enough within a short period of time that you could write one.  It's the underlying technical nuances that would probably throw you, but I think you're smart enough to catch on quickly enough.


----------



## QuickDrop

dcowboy7 said:


> so for us non-rocket scientists what does this mean in understandable english ? :hurah:


Yeah, objectively, what does all this likely mean for subscribers? I don't want to sound "harsh" on this, but a lot D* subscribers seem to be saying "don't worry, DirecTV probably just screwed up their government filing." This doesn't put me in the most optimistic of moods.


----------



## LameLefty

QuickDrop said:


> Yeah, objectively, what does all this likely mean for subscribers? I don't want to sound "harsh" on this, but a lot D* subscribers seem to be saying "don't worry, DirecTV probably just screwed up their government filing." This doesn't put me in the most optimistic of moods.


It means one of two things: either there was a typo in a document "101" in lieu of "103", or there are plans afoot involving Ka-band HD broadcasts from 101 that we don't know about.

Couple of caveats: I know from personal experience that there are mistakes and relatively insignificant typos in court and bureaucratic agency filings all the time. Despite the best of intentions, stuff happens.  Second caveat: while I understand spacecraft engineering and I know about government bureaucracies in general, there's a lot about RF-engineering and electronics that I don't know and better minds than mine have indicated doubts about the current systems to receive Ka-band transmissions from 101.

Those caveats lead me to think that the "101" should have read "103" in the SEC document, especially since it's a factual issue that, even if in error, has no negative bearing or implication whatsoever on stockholders.


----------



## RAD

Or just maybe DirecTV did this on purpose to get the compition to waste their time and effort trying to figure out what DirecTV was up to and coming up with plans to couter it


----------



## Sixto

seems like the consensus is that "101°" is a typo (should be "103°").

but would be cool if it's not a typo. would be nice to have a full 24 transponder (14 national, 10 LiL) at 101° using the entire available Ka spectrum. maybe a dream but would be nice.

yes, needs a KuKa 101° LNB, but we've been down the new LNB road before. 

yes, it's costly and time consuming, but would yield full use of another Ka slot on the downlink which would be nice.

and it does say 101° in the filing so it's not totally a dead idea yet. unlikely, but not dead until we hear something officially.

actually, the only official D12 info we have is that SEC filing .


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> seems like the consensus is that "101°" is a typo (should be "103°").
> 
> but would be cool if it's not a typo. would be nice to have a full 24 transponder (14 national, 10 LiL) at 101° using the entire available Ka spectrum. maybe a dream but would be nice.
> 
> yes, needs a KuKa 101° LNB, but we've been down the new LNB road before.
> 
> yes, it's costly and time consuming, but would yield full use of another Ka slot on the downlink which would be nice.
> 
> and it does say 101° in the filing so it's not totally a dead idea yet. unlikely, but not dead until we hear something officially.
> 
> actually, the only official D12 info we have is that SEC filing .


I guess officially then, we have an SEC filing. That is all the facts we have. Everything else is speculation. I'd like to speculate they're replacing 101, this does make some sense to me.


----------



## RAD

OK, how about D12 goes to 101 and is used for spotbeam's only. They look at some of their smaller HD LIL DMA's penetration rates and migrate them over to D12/101 and free up those transponder/frequency's on the 103/99 Ka satellites and make them national beams. That reduces their expense on truck rolls to swap out LNB's and could use the D12/101 position for new HD LIL markets.


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> OK, how about D12 goes to 101 and is used for spotbeam's only. They look at some of their smaller HD LIL DMA's penetration rates and migrate them over to D12/101 and free up those transponder/frequency's on the 103/99 Ka satellites and make them national beams. That reduces their expense on truck rolls to swap out LNB's and could use the D12/101 position for new HD LIL markets.


would be a creative idea if D10 and D11 could do much more "national". IIRC, only a few more are possible (they already did two more for a short time) but that may have a negative impact on satellite life and backup.

and then D12 would need some way to use the "national" transponders, unless it's reconfigured.


----------



## Sixto

hey RAD, that online fancy version of the annual report that you just linked to has that same "typo" 

guess there's a long lead time to print ... or maybe, just maybe (I know it's unlikely), but maybe it's not a ...  

"I, Patrick T. Doyle, certify that: 1. I have reviewed this Annual Report on Form 10-K of The DIRECTV Group, Inc.; 2. Based on my knowledge, this report does not contain any untrue statement of a material fact or omit to state a material fact necessary to make the statements made, in light of the circumstances under which such statements we ..."


----------



## RAD

Sixto said:


> would be a creative idea if D10 and D11 could do much more "national". IIRC, only a few more are possible (they already did two more for a short time) but that may have a negative impact on satellite life and backup.
> 
> and then D12 would need some way to use the "national" transponders, unless it's reconfigured.


Isn't the national/spotbeam issue power management in the satellite, how many transponders can the run off the solar arrays? I would think if they could shut down a number of spots that frees up the power for a national beam or two.

But as your other post points out, the annual report also says 101 for D12, maybe they'll be replacing my sidecar with a slimline later this year?


----------



## LameLefty

To borrow a phrase . . .

"Curious and curiouser."


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> To borrow a phrase . . .
> 
> "Curious and curiouser."


yep ... and I agree with all the reasons for the typo theory here ... but geez, they're launching a $100M+ satellite , it's one of the highlights for the year, it's publicized in a major way in the annual report ... and they have a typo as to it's location? 

man that would be embarrassing for the guy/gal that sent in that text!


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> To borrow a phrase . . .
> 
> "Curious and curiouser."


Definitely!


----------



## evan_s

You can find more info about the sats at http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295. Best I can figure out they could run a max of 22 National TPs if they used all available spares but that really wouldn't be a good idea.

I know it says 101 but I still think it's going to end up at 99 or more likely 103 since that what our other source said previously and it's either a typo or a general area. There are just too many issues and too much cost involved with it going at 101.

Personally my thinking at this point is that d12 will be configured for KA high and spaceway 1 will be moved to 99 with spaceway 2 to allow D12 to be configured with level of national and spot beams as d10/d11.


----------



## Sixto

There actually is some news today ... sifting through it now ... (sure is bad time for dinner to be served! )

In this application, DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") seeks authorization for a new antenna to transmit a telecommand carrier/pointing beacon to be used with DIRECTV 10 or DIRECTV 11, Ka-band satellites operating at the nominal 103° W.L. and 99° W.L. orbital locations, respectively. While the communications carriers that are transmitted to these satellites comply with the off-axis EIRP density levels set forth in Section 25.138(a)(1) of the Commission's rules, the telecommand and pointing beacon emissions, which form part of the TTAC system for the satellite, may not. As such, a waiver request for this aspect of Section 25.138 has been included with this application. Other waiver requests, as required, have also been included.​
http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-164349

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-164352 (this is the important link - maybe)

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-164356

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-164358


----------



## Drew2k

Sixto said:


> There actually is some news today ... sifting through it now ... (sure is bad time for dinner to be served! )


Anxiously awaiting your report!


----------



## Sixto

Drew2k said:


> Anxiously awaiting your report!


Ok, (rushed thru dinner ) and have now read the filing.

Few observations ...

It does not specifically reference D12.

It is interesting that it references every satellite between 93° and 109°, including the pending 97W, and never hints at D12.

The main filing is relative to "telecommand and beacon signals for DIRECTV 10 at 29251 MHz (primary) and 29493 MHz (backup), and for DIRECTV 11 at 29253 MHz (primary) and 29495 MHz (backup), though the pointing beacon will only be transmitted at the primary frequency". Need some help from the satellite experts among us as to why they might be changing this now after D10/D11 have been active for quite some time?

Also references "current DIRECTV 20/30 GHz earth station application is for a 9.2-meter antenna that has been constructed on-site."

"In this application, DIRECTV seeks authority for an additional earth station antenna at a facility that has been licensed for the 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-29.5 GHz frequencies for over two years."

Telecommand (TC): The transmission of coded signals towards a satellite to initiate, modify or terminate equipment functions on-board the satellite.

Beacon: A highly stable radio frequency signal, which is used by earth stations equipped with an automatically (satellite) tracking system. Beacons can be generated on-board the satellite, or transmitted from the ground and relayed through the satellite. When generated on-board the satellite, they are also known as satellite or on-board beacons and sometimes carry telemetry signals.

Still trying to see how important this all is ... gotta read this again ...


----------



## LameLefty

It seems to mean this application is for a command/control and telemetry station for D10 and D11. Why they want or need another transmitting antenna for these purposes is not entirely clear, unless they need additional capacity in order to be able to command the entire 3-satellite D10/11/12 constellation once D12 is launched. 

Hmmm. Time for additional pondering.


----------



## evan_s

That is the best I could get out of it. Directv is preparing an additional command/control and telemetry setup which would make sense is to control an additional sat, eg d12. I'm guessing the additional transmitter is for more uplink capacity. After all if you've got more sats up there beaming more channels back down you need to be able to send more channels up there in the first place.

It doesn't seem to give us any clues about where d12 is going. It seems almost intentionally vague in that reguard but I'm not sure why they'd need to be.


----------



## bobnielsen

evan_s said:


> That is the best I could get out of it. Directv is preparing an additional command/control and telemetry setup which would make sense is to control an additional sat, eg d12. I'm guessing the additional transmitter is for more uplink capacity. After all if you've got more sats up there beaming more channels back down you need to be able to send more channels up there in the first place.
> 
> It doesn't seem to give us any clues about where d12 is going. It seems almost intentionally vague in that reguard but I'm not sure why they'd need to be.


They're just messing with our heads :lol:


----------



## dwrats_56

It looks like DirecTV is withdrawing is not going to be putting at satellite at 97.1.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-895A1.pdf

I should add. At this time.


----------



## harsh

dwrats_56 said:


> It looks like DirecTV is withdrawing is not going to be putting at satellite at 97.1.


The original filing was an attempt to steal the slot away from Echostar who already had the authority but hadn't done anything with it and as such, stood a good chance of losing it and having it come up for grabs.


----------



## Sixto

dwrats_56 said:


> It looks like DirecTV is withdrawing is not going to be putting at satellite at 97.1.
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-895A1.pdf
> 
> I should add. At this time.


yep, just noticed the release from earlier today.

as was just mentioned, that slot was EchoStar's, but it had an expiration date, and DirecTV applied on the day that the EchoStar license was to expire.

here's the background (this post and those following posts): http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2025827&postcount=619

seems like there's some behind-closed-doors stuff going on ...


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> The original filing was an attempt to steal the slot away from Echostar who already had the authority but hadn't done anything with it and as such, stood a good chance of losing it and having it come up for grabs.


Can they use squatter's rights for something like this? (anyone?)


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Can they use squatter's rights for something like this? (anyone?)


hey smid ... in a way, they tried that! ... at the 5-year mark, when EchoStar didn't use the slot (3/9/2009), DirecTV squatted  and filed to take the slot ... the FCC is now saying not so fast, we didn't say it was free yet ... and now we'll see how it plays out ... with the FCC being the governing body who makes the rules


----------



## Tom Robertson

smiddy said:


> Can they use squatter's rights for something like this? (anyone?)


No. If a company misses their milestones, without obtaining a waiver, they lose the license.

Now... I don't know at what point the FCC declares the license revoked. First milestone, if I recall is to contract for the satellite build. Then design approval a year later. (and licenses have a $3M or so deposit that is refunded as you meet certain milestones. Miss them all, you lose the cash.)

It is not unreasonable for DIRECTV to have filed a smidge early (before the license was fully revoked) because the next in the line for a slot gets a chance.

Someone really is on their toes watching this stuff at DIRECTV.  (Good job!)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Shades228

D12 is going to the 103


----------



## P Smith

Shades228 said:


> D12 is going to the 103


 Really ? Official doc required !


----------



## harsh

Shades228 said:


> D12 is going to the 103


As I pointed out earlier, the official documentation that we have is that it is going to 101W. It seems reasonable that it will indeed go to 103W in spite of what DIRECTV has said, but nonetheless I echo P Smith's call for evidence.


----------



## dreadlk

If it's Ka how can it go at 101? Theres no LNB on the dishes to pick that up! It must be 99 or 103.


----------



## Sixto

dreadlk said:


> If it's Ka how can it go at 101? Theres no LNB on the dishes to pick that up! It must be 99 or 103.


That's what she said 

(but in all seriousness, they could release a KuKa 101° capable LNB - see previous posts)


----------



## heisman

Am I going to need a new dish and receivers to see this satellite?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

heisman said:


> Am I going to need a new dish and receivers to see this satellite?


No.

The D12 sat will be located within the existing sky line of sight to the existing satellites.


----------



## P Smith

heisman said:


> Am I going to need a new dish and receivers to see this satellite?


Yes, see a post right above your !


----------



## evan_s

heisman said:


> Am I going to need a new dish and receivers to see this satellite?


It's pretty safe bet that you won't need a new receiver.

No one can say for sure for the LNB at this point but my bet is on NO because of the cost involved for DirecTV to swap out LNBs for all their existing customers.


----------



## P Smith

D12 could gather international channels, so swap to new LNBF could start from relatively small group.


----------



## evan_s

P Smith said:


> D12 could gather international channels, so swap to new LNBF could start from relatively small group.


That is possible but there is nothing that would indicate that. They are predicting another 50+ national HD channels. Do they even have any international HD channels currently? I fully expect the channels to be for their core programing.


----------



## RobertE

Is there any documentation that says the current Ka/Ku LNBs can/can not do Ka @ 101?


----------



## David MacLeod

I'm curious too. I am very uninformed on this though


----------



## Tom Robertson

One 5 LNB unit was pulled apart and photographed. The pictures clearly show the unit did not have Ka units at 101°: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1256604#post1256604

D0ug did a great job (not Doug Brott, tho he always does a great job too.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

tom robertson said:


> one 5 lnb unit was pulled apart and photographed. The pictures clearly show the unit did not have ka units at 101°: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1256604#post1256604
> 
> d0ug did a great job (not doug brott, tho he always does a great job too.)
> 
> cheers,
> tom


*There are no pictures* !


----------



## David MacLeod

P Smith said:


> *There are no pictures* !


are for me.


----------



## Ernie

Tom Robertson said:


> One 5 LNB unit was pulled apart and photographed. The pictures clearly show the unit did not have Ka units at 101°: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1256604#post1256604
> 
> D0ug did a great job (not Doug Brott, tho he always does a great job too.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Except that's not the SL3 that been handed out for the last year. If somebody had planned for D12 at 101, then it would have a Ka module in the center position.

Ernie


----------



## harsh

Ernie said:


> Except that's not the SL3 that been handed out for the last year.


OT: The SL3 has been available only for a few months. Earl announced it near the end of July and it hadn't gone into testing at that time. The earliest sightings happened in late September or early October.

The truth is that until someone cuts into one we just don't know.


----------



## P Smith

David MacLeod said:


> are for me.


Probably that time his server been busy - I can see them now.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ernie said:


> Except that's not the SL3 that been handed out for the last year. If somebody had planned for D12 at 101, then it would have a Ka module in the center position.
> 
> Ernie


That's ok, there are still only a couple million of the two original 5LNB models Sidecar and slimline. So they would all need replacing if Ka on 101° were happening. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

If D12 will start from international channels, then the 'couple millions' will shrink to thousands.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> If D12 will start from international channels, then the 'couple millions' will shrink to thousands.


That makes very little sense. There aren't enough international channels to justify using D12 for Ka from 101. That wouldn't free up hardly any bandwidth from 110 and 119, and what IS there is Ku only, and what's worse, most new installs seem to be going to 99-101-103 dishes anyway.


----------



## P Smith

Why not in term of implementing high compression for all SD to MPEG-4 to free up bandwidth and consolidate sats in close proximity for one dish ... See Dish Eastern Arc path. This mantra 'more national HD' wouldn't be lasts long - there are more then that.


----------



## Sixto

RobertE said:


> Is there any documentation that says the current Ka/Ku LNBs can/can not do Ka @ 101?


i was going to buy an SL3 LNB last week just to disassemble it but decided to just give it some more time and wait for the FCC filing. it's cheap ($29.99) so may eventually ... we'll see ...


----------



## RobertE

Sixto said:


> i was going to buy an SL3 LNB last week just to disassemble it but decided to just give it some more time and wait for the FCC filing. it's cheap ($29.99) so may eventually ... we'll see ...


Got a case of them now. 

Anyway, how can one tell if the 101 portion is Ku only or Ka/Ku?

The only thing I noticed that was significantly different in the picutres from a few posts above was that the little square cut outs were smaller on 99/103 than on 101/110/103.

Would it be more appropriate to compare say the pc board of a dual 101 lnb to the 5 lnb pics?

I've got no knowledge of the board layout and all that. Just curious as to how one would know what it is capable of just by looking at it.


----------



## Ernie

LameLefty said:


> That makes very little sense. There aren't enough international channels to justify using D12 for Ka from 101. That wouldn't free up hardly any bandwidth from 110 and 119, and what IS there is Ku only, and what's worse, most new installs seem to be going to 99-101-103 dishes anyway.


If you want to keep the numbers down, you could cut over smaller subscription groups one at a time. HD Extra pack, secondary HD RSNs, premium movie channels, 1080P PPV, HD Sports packages and HD porn are groups that are probably manageable. This is what happened before for NFL Superfan and West Coast Distant HD, so its possible they will do it again. For them it would be better if the had included BSS capability for those 3 locations as well. That way they wouldn't have to keep doing this over and over.

Ernie


----------



## evan_s

Ernie said:


> If you want to keep the numbers down, you could cut over smaller subscription groups one at a time. HD Extra pack, secondary HD RSNs, premium movie channels, 1080P PPV, HD Sports packages and HD porn are groups that are probably manageable. This is what happened before for NFL Superfan and West Coast Distant HD, so its possible they will do it again. For them it would be better if the had included BSS capability for those 3 locations as well. That way they wouldn't have to keep doing this over and over.
> 
> Ernie


Problem is most of those don't help the situation.

Secondary RSNs, the HD sports packs need to be available to everyone who might want to receive them. Most of the HD sports packs are just remaps of the RSNs so they aren't separate from the RSNs that have to be able to be received by everyone in the area the RSN covers. The main one that isn't is sunday ticket which shares spaces with PPV channels which again need to be available to everyone. The 1080p ppv is only Download on demand so doesn't use up any sat space either.


----------



## RAD

evan_s said:


> The 1080p ppv is only Download on demand so doesn't use up any sat space either.


The 1080p PPV's that are in your "Top Movies" folder on the DVR's are downloaded via the satellite so they do take some bandwidth. But it appears that they are downloaded in the middle of the night and early morning, probably using space that a part time RSN would be using in the evening.


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> The 1080p PPV's that are in your "Top Movies" folder on the DVR's are downloaded via the satellite so they do take some bandwidth. But it appears that they are downloaded in the middle of the night and early morning, probably using space that a part time RSN would be using in the evening.


D11 Transponder 5 Slot 1050 is labeled "1080p Test"


----------



## Sixto

RobertE said:


> Anyway, how can one tell if the 101 portion is Ku only or Ka/Ku?


I was gonna take it apart, maybe post some pics, and ask the hardware guru's ...


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> D11 Transponder 5 Slot 1050 is labeled "1080p Test"


I wonder if this will be an actual broadcasted 1080p channel instead of a PPV?


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> I wonder if this will be an actual broadcasted 1080p channel instead of a PPV?


been "live" for weeks. replaced PPV HD 133 on 2/26/2009.


----------



## Smthkd

Sooooooooooo in other words it another no HD channel in HD?


----------



## heisman

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No.





P Smith said:


> Yes.


Thanks for clearing things up. :eek2:


----------



## Ernie

evan_s said:


> Problem is most of those don't help the situation.
> 
> Secondary RSNs, the HD sports packs need to be available to everyone who might want to receive them. Most of the HD sports packs are just remaps of the RSNs so they aren't separate from the RSNs that have to be able to be received by everyone in the area the RSN covers. The main one that isn't is sunday ticket which shares spaces with PPV channels which again need to be available to everyone. The 1080p ppv is only Download on demand so doesn't use up any sat space either.


My point was that in the past D* has made hardware upgrades a requirement to continue to get certain services (such as secondary HD RSNs) as well as new services. By controlling the rate of cutover, they could have an orderly conversion.

Ernie


----------



## scottchez

Since we are paying extra for the HD extra pack I would hope some day we would get some kind of 24x7 1080p channel in that pack. Maybe an HD theater 1080p channel or something unique.
Remember the old days of early HD when HD theater so new and unique? Someone needs to come up with a 1080p channel.



DodgerKing said:


> I wonder if this will be an actual broadcasted 1080p channel instead of a PPV?


----------



## gib4500

whatever happened to espn going 1080P. I had read about the possiblity of this a couple years ago.


----------



## Brandon428

gib4500 said:


> whatever happened to espn going 1080P. I had read about the possiblity of this a couple years ago.


That would be awesome,but I doubt it'll happen anytime soon.


----------



## harsh

gib4500 said:


> whatever happened to espn going 1080P.


You wouldn't like ESPN at 24fps.


----------



## P Smith

gib4500 said:


> whatever happened to espn going 1080P. I had read about the possiblity of this a couple years ago.


60 fps ?

EDIT: Found an answer here:
"ESPN has designed the facility to support the *1080-line-progressive-scan (1080p) HD format at 60 frames per second *(fps), which ESPN and other networks believe they will eventually use to produce content. While 1080p is still in its nascent stages as a broadcast format and 1080p production equipment is sparse, ESPN has installed a 3-gigabit-per-second routing infrastructure in L.A. and is getting as much beta-stage production gear as it can, such as prototype 1080p cameras."


----------



## raoul5788

harsh said:


> You wouldn't like ESPN at 24fps.


Is this supposed to be informative?


----------



## P Smith

Rather harsh. But increase his post's counter.


----------



## woj027

raoul5788 said:


> Is this supposed to be informative?


As I understand it 24fps would "flicker" too much for high speed sports action. the 60fps would be able to handle the action much better.


----------



## djrobx

harsh said:


> You wouldn't like ESPN at 24fps.





raoul5788 said:


> Is this supposed to be informative?


It seems the best DirecTV can do at the moment is 1080p/24. Sports in 24fps would be craptacular. Thus, Harsh's comment. I don't think 1080p/60 broadcasts will come any time soon. That would require double the bandwidth of 1080i/60. Providers are having enough trouble allocating the bandwidth needed to do 1080i correctly!

1080p/24, on the other hand, is more efficient than 1080i/60. It's 20% less pixels per second, and can very easily be "downconverted" to 1080i/60 for backwards compatibility. Win-win.

-- Rob


----------



## Sixto

The chipset in the HR2x only supports output of 1080p 24/30.

http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf

Now back to topic: D12.


----------



## tkrandall

djrobx said:


> Providers are having enough trouble allocating the bandwidth needed to do 1080i correctly!


I don't know I'd say they are having "trouble" allocating the bandwidth to do 1080i correctly. They may be overtaxing their bandwidth due to the amount of other crap they try to squeeze on any given channel or tranponder, but that is matter of the _choices_ they are making.


----------



## LameLefty

None of this has anything to do with Directv 12. Please, as Sixto asked politely . . .

:backtotop:


----------



## bjlc

so are they going to launch D-12 or not? Its been what, well over a year since the last launch. and while D* eliminated the locals on the 72.5 dish, I really believe that the whole crowd here was totally disappointed in what they got. 

when will D* stop standing pat? if you are not moving forward you are going backward. 

what is the deal with this bird? the bottom line..


----------



## Sixto

bjlc said:


> so are they going to launch D-12 or not? Its been what, well over a year since the last launch. and while D* eliminated the locals on the 72.5 dish, I really believe that the whole crowd here was totally disappointed in what they got.
> 
> when will D* stop standing pat? if you are not moving forward you are going backward.
> 
> what is the deal with this bird? the bottom line..


the latest is a 2H-2009 launch with some sites saying September.

post#1 will have the latest info (I do need to add the annual report reference).


----------



## LameLefty

bjlc said:


> what is the deal with this bird? the bottom line..


The best info that has been found shows a launch by ILS (International Launch Services) aboard at Proton-M/Briz-M booster from Baikonaur Cosmodrome in late September.

This time-frame is subject to weather, pad availability, technical issues with the booster, final checkout and outfitting of the satellite by Boeing, and FCC regulatory approval of launch and operation of the satellite.


----------



## TANK

What is the latest date they ( D* ) would learn about it before the actual launch date ?

Would they get 120/90/30 day notice before the scheduled launch date ?


----------



## Sixto

TANK said:


> What is the latest date they ( D* ) would learn about it before the actual launch date ?
> 
> Would they get 120/90/30 day notice before the scheduled launch date ?


It's expected that DirecTV is working very closely with the launch provider and has a very clear vision of the launch schedule and contingency plans.

We just don't have good visibility into those plans, other then the comments we've all referenced in this thread for the past several months.


----------



## TANK

Sixto said:


> It's expected that DirecTV is working very closely with the launch provider and has a very clear vision of the launch schedule and contingency plans.
> 
> We just don't have good visibility into those plans, other then the comments we've all referenced in this thread for the past several months.


Thanks that makes sense.


----------



## harsh

Looking at the schedule maintained by anik on nasaspaceflight.com:

Hours away -- ProtoStar 2
June 29 -- Sirius FM-5
July 15-August 15 -- AsiaSat 5
September -- Nimiq 5
End of September -- DIRECTV 12
Q4 2009 -- ArabSat-5A
Q4 2009 -- IntelSat 16


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Looking at the schedule maintained by anik on nasaspaceflight.com:
> 
> Hours away -- ProtoStar 2
> June 29 -- Sirius FM-5
> July 15-August 15 -- AsiaSat 5
> September -- Nimiq 5
> End of September -- DIRECTV 12
> Q4 2009 -- ArabSat-5A
> Q4 2009 -- IntelSat 16


However, to provide a bit detail and perspective, these are JUST the Proton-M/Briz-M launches scheduled for this year from ILS at Baikonaur. There are a LOT more missions to be launched from Russian/Kazakh/Ukrainian facilities and rockets this year than these handful of Proton missions.

For those worried that DIRECTV12 is listed as "End of September" keep in mind that it was not until mid-April that the current Protostar 2 launch went from "Middle of May" to "May 14" (it since slipped a couple days). The launch providers and satellite operators have no obligation to provide any information to anyone but their customers and regulatory agencies involved. The information becomes public as a side-effect of satellite delivery and launch prep operations, not just because we want it to be.


----------



## harsh

As other Baikonur (note the correct spelling) launches don't materially impact Proton-M/Briz-M launches and DIRECTV can only use that combination of vehicles for a land launch, I thought it useful to not clutter things with the schedule of other launch vehicles.

I would also point out that the interval between successive launches has typically been greater than 30 days.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> As other Baikonur (note the correct spelling)


It's a transliteration from a Cyrillic alphabet. Get over it. :lol:

Here's what the world's foremost authority on Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian/Kazakh space history, James Oberg, has to say about it in an archived post on sci.space.policy from 1996:



> From: [email protected] (JamesOberg)
> Newsgroups: sci.space.policy
> Subject: Spell it "Kazakstan"!!
> Date: 5 May 1996 12:39:37 -0400
> 
> I'm reposting this for general interest!
> 
> Note of Interest /// James Oberg /// March 10, 1996
> 
> New Cosmonautical Orthography -- I.E., Spell Space Names Differently
> 
> The government of Kazakhstan has requested Western nations using the Latin
> alphabet to change their spelling of the country's name to "Kazakstan".
> This request from Almaty (formerly Alma-Ata) was made to the Secretary
> General of the United Nations on April 28, 1995, has been accepted by the
> United Nations and, in the United States, by the National Geographic
> Society and the federal government's Board on Geographic Names (on July
> 10, 1995). The request takes effect immediately. The government's
> reference adjective is "Kazakstani", while the leading ethnic group is to
> be called "Kazaki".
> 
> The modified cyrillic alphabet adopted by the newly independent nation
> uses both the cyrillic "K", the cyrillic "X" (guttural "kh" sound), and a
> new letter which looks like a "tailed K" (it has a cedilla at the end of
> the lower right diagonal leg). The standard linguistic transliteration of
> these letters into the Latin alphabet is "K", "H", and "Q".
> 
> Two of the tailed-K's are used in the new country's newly-respelled name
> (as seen on postage stamps and paper currency), so it is thus actually
> spelled "Qazaqstan". Because this looks awkward to foreign eyes, the
> government requested the special-case one-time-only transliteration of
> "Kazakstan".
> 
> There is bound to be some confusion since the Russian-language word for
> "cossack" is "kazak", and the ethnic Russian "kazaki" in the north of
> "Kazakstan" are agitating for autonomy, even independence from the turkic
> Qazaqi (or "Kazaki") and anschluss with Russia. We're just going to have
> to live with this.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Almaty government has also officially renamed Leninsk, the
> workers' city for the Baykonur (or often "Baikonur) Cosmodrome, as
> "Baykonur". The name "Leninsk" is supposed to disappear from world maps
> and documents immediately.
> 
> The cosmodrome was originally named "Baykonur" in 1961 as a geographic
> deception to misdirect American spy planes to a tiny mining village named
> "Baykonyr" hundreds of kilometers to the northeast (the final vowel was
> accidentally changed from a cyrillic "yerri" to the cyrillic "u" by a
> careless official in Moscow). "Baykonyr" was how the Russian cossack
> conquerors (the Russian kazakis) sounded out the pronunciation of the
> town's name when they heard it from the original Qazaqi (or turkic kazaki)
> natives.
> 
> The original name of the small train station where the cosmodrome was
> actually built is Tyura-Tam, which was carelessly misspelled "Tyuratam" by
> the CIA (and mispronounced TIE-YOUR-ATOM by a generation of American TV
> newscasters). It's a native qazaki phrase reportedly meaning "Arrow
> Cemetery" (inauspicious for a missile base). But unhappy Russian space
> workers assigned there played on the syllables and only half-jokingly
> called it "Tyurma-Tam", Russian for "It's a prison there".
> 
> The original name of the workers' settlement for the cosmodrome was
> "Zarya", or "Dawn", and that was the call sign that ground control used
> over the radio when talking with Yuri Gagarin in space in 1961. It was
> also called "Zvezdagrad", or "Star City", but that name later got bumped
> to the cosmonaut training center near Moscow. In Russian the latter town
> is Zvyozdniy Gorodok, or "Starry Town", but "Star City" sounded more
> grandiose and in the early 1970s the Russians were still in the
> geographical misdirection business, so that's how they told the Americans
> they wanted the Moscow-area town referred to (in 1983 after Brezhnev
> finally died there was a perfunctory attempt to rename it "Breznevsk", but
> everybody ignored the decree). Back in Central Asia, near the so-called
> "Baikonur Cosmodrome", the settlement had become officially designated
> "Leninsk", and nobody ignored that decree.
> 
> Meanwhile, since the collapse of the USSR and the independence of former
> constituent republics, all place names in Kazakstan have reverted to the
> turkic spelling in their newly modified alphabet. So the original mining
> village (misspelled "Baykonyr" by the Russian Tsarist conquerors a century
> ago) is now called Bayqongyr. This is the correct spelling of the turkish
> words "Chief Blondie", a historical figure vaguely associated with the
> region.
> 
> This meant that the name "Baykonur", the original Tsarist kazak (cossack)
> misspelling, was now free for relocation. And by Kazakstani government
> decree in December 1995, it was assigned to the city of Leninsk, banishing
> Lenin's name from the map of independent Kazakstan.
> 
> Western usage of geographical nomenclature is an inconsistent and curious
> practice, made more difficult by "foreign" alphabets. Some old names based
> on bizarre spellings persist, such as Moscow for Moskva, or even "Russia"
> for "Rossiya". But in the case of the space bases of Central Asia, it's
> probably a prudent sign of respect for the people who now own the place to
> go along with their requests: use "Kazakstan" for the country, and
> "Baykonur" for the worker's city next to the "Baykonur Cosmodrome, and --
> if you ever find yourself in a dusty mining village hundreds of kilometers
> northeast of there -- you better say "Bayqongyr" or the American Embassy
> may never hear from you again!
> 
> ____________________
> 
> References:
> 
> "Geopolitically Correct", National Geographic, November 1995.
> 
> Letter to James Oberg from Juan Jose Valdes, Assistent Director of the
> Cartographic Division, and Director of Map Editing, National Geographic
> Society, Washington, DC, dated Dec 12, 1995,
> 
> "Nazarbayev Signs Edict Renaming Leninsk to Baykonur", Moscow ITAR-TASS,
> Dec 21, 1995, via FBIS.
> ____________________________________________
> 
> I don't suppose I need to mention that I'm an "internet acquaintance" of Mr. Oberg's so if necessary, I can see if he want to address your concerns directly, Harsh. :lol:


----------



## Groundhog45

Thank you Professor Lefty.  Very informative.


----------



## Smthkd

Well I don't know about you guys but Im starting to get excited again! It was about this time when we had dedicated threads for D10 and begain speculating until the launch of D10. D12 should be just as exciting being that Sept. is only 4 months away! So let the good times roll and D12 we are ready for your launch with HD goodies for the Fall/Winter season!


----------



## Sixto

AsiaSat 5 now "beginning of August". D12 looking more like October unless it happens before Nimiq 5. 
*Launched*
2008-January 28 - Ekspress-AM33 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2008-February 11 - Thor 5 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2008-March 14 - AMC 14 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur 
2008-August 18 - Inmarsat-4 F3 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur 
2008-September 19 - Nimiq 4 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2008-November 5 - Astra 1M - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2008-December 10 - Ciel 2 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2009-February 11 - Ekspress-AM44, Ekspress-MD1 - Proton-M/Briz-M
2009-April 3 - Eutelsat W2A - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2009-May 16 - ProtoStar 2 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
*Scheduled*
2009-June 29 - Sirius FM-5 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2009-Beginning of August - AsiaSat 5 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2009-September - Nimiq 5 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2009-End of September - DirecTV 12 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2009-fourth quarter - Arabsat-5A - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
2009-fourth quarter - Intelsat 16 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> AsiaSat 5 now "beginning of August". D12 looking more like October unless it happens before Nimiq 5.


Think positive. There was only a 14 day gap between Ekspress-AM33 and Thor 5 in early 2008. With enough money, all things are possible.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Think positive. There was only a 14 day gap between Ekspress-AM33 and Thor 5 in early 2008. With enough money, all things are possible.


could be, but no need to spend big $ to move it up a week or two. by 10/15 is fine. we'll see ...


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> AsiaSat 5 now "beginning of August". D12 looking more like October unless it happens before Nimiq 5.


Since the late June date (versus early June) of Sirius FM-5 showed up on April 3rd, a mid-July date for Nimiq 5 hasn't been very likely.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> With enough money, all things are possible.


Indeed!

I would point out that next launch after Thor 5 (AMC 14) was a qualified failure.


----------



## carl6

Can we simply please keep this thread limited to the subject matter of it's title? I would think all of the other discussion would appropriately belong in one of the non-DBS forums that are available.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Folks, it's not against forum rules to discuss spelling. In fact I wish some people would discuss it a bit more. That being said, attacking each other is against forum rules. I've deleted quite a few posts that attack other members, as well as posts that are peripheral to the deleted ones. 

If your post was deleted, I apologize. Feel free to re-post in a kind and respectful way.


----------



## wmj5

after all this time I still don't know what thread to go to and how to get to it to type a statement, could someone kinkly explain?


----------



## Sixto

wmj5 said:


> after all this time I still don't know what thread to go to and how to get to it to type a statement, could someone kinkly explain?


Hi. What's the question?

The latest on D12 is in post#1. (I still need to update with the annual report reference)


----------



## Artwood

Will there be a D13?


----------



## harsh

Artwood said:


> Will there be a D13?


The original D13 was scrubbed, but it is quite likely that there will be another one with that designation; if for no other reason than to replace an existing satellite as it reaches the end of its useful life.


----------



## dcowboy7

icksnay on the 13ay....they should call it D14.


----------



## Sixto

Artwood said:


> Will there be a D13?


there will be more satellites ... there was one named D13 since canceled ... names of the others here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1920312


----------



## Sixto

Several FCC Filings today. Multiple copies of #2 & #3 for each satellite category. None reference D12 but some good reading:

Annual Assessment of the Status of Competition in the Market for the Delivery of Video Programming:http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520217047​
OWNERSHIP, DIRECTORS, AND OFFICERS of the "New" DirecTV: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-165944​
DESCRIPTION OF THE TRANSACTION AND PUBLIC INTEREST STATEMENT:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-165943​


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Several FCC Filings today. Multiple copies of #2 & #3 for each satellite category.


_Au contraire_. From the first link we find this informative gem:



> A third such satellite, DIRECTV-12, is under construction and
> will be ready for launch in the second half of this year.


:lol:

We also see this:



> DIRECTV also continues to
> migrate its HD-quality audio and video services to the most advanced technologies,
> including MPEG-4 digital compression, DVB-S2 and 8PSK satellite modulation and
> coding, and Ka-band transmissions.


I didn't think Directv was yet using 8PSK? Have I missed or simply misread what I've seen here on DBSTalk before?

Okay, one more thing. From the third document, these are the Ka-band licenses to be transferred to "New Directv" after the change of ownership now on-going:

S2132
S2133
S2191
S2640
S2641
S2689

Anyone have a handy "cheat sheet" that correlates the FCC callsigns with common names? For instance, I believe S2132 is Directv 8.


----------



## P Smith

It's deeply hidden, because of spectrum shuffle on Ka sats - you can't analyze stream/mux by regular DVB-S2 cards, not to many ppl get the info outside of DTV walls.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> _Au contraire_. From the first link we find this informative gem ...


Knew if posting before heading out to dinner there might be something in there! 

Yep. I do have a cheat sheet with call-signs ... let me go look ...


----------



## Sixto

lamelefty said:


> s2132
> s2133
> s2191
> s2640
> s2641
> s2689
> 
> anyone have a handy "cheat sheet" that correlates the fcc callsigns with common names? For instance, i believe s2132 is directv 8.


s2133=sw2
s2191=sw1
s2640=d11
s2641=d10
s2689=d9s


----------



## LameLefty

Okay, here's more satellite-related tidbits:

REQUEST SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORITY TO DE-ORBIT Directv 3

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAppPDF?attachment_key=711337

It had been leased to Telsat Canada but has now reached end-of-life. It will be boosted to a graveyard orbit of at least 300 km above the geostationary arc.

Also, I tracked down the info I mentioned above. Here are FCC callsigns for the current Directv sats with Ka-band payloads:

S2632, S2132 Directv 8
S2669, S2689 Directv 9S
S2133 Spaceway 2
S2191 Spaceway 1
S2640 Directv 11
S2641 Directv 10

EDITED TO ADD: Thanks, Sixto. :lol:


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> ...I didn't think Directv was yet using 8PSK? Have I missed or simply misread what I've seen here on DBSTalk before


According to a somewhat recent post here on another thread by evan_s http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2095526#post2095526 DirecTV uses 8-PSK modulation on the spotbeams.


----------



## smiddy

Whoa, you guys are all over this, great!


----------



## harsh

Friday's report from anik has Sirius FM-5 possibly slipping into July.


----------



## Sixto

yep, we need 4 launches to be successful for D12 to be beaming lots of HD in Q1. the three before it and a successful D12. gonna be a while.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Friday's report from anik has Sirius FM-5 possibly slipping into July.


That may or may not mean downstream slips. It depends on a number of factors such as wether the FM-5 slip is due to a satellite issue, a booster issue, a financing issue between ILS and SiriusXM, whether any of the customers have paid a premium for a guaranteed launch window and contractual provisions regarding penalties, etc.

In short, the situation will remain fluid through the summer. FCC filings will probably give us the most info from this point on.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> In short, the situation will remain fluid through the summer. FCC filings will probably give us the most info from this point on.


What rulings regarding D12 have been handed down since the approval to build? I've never been able to master the fine art of searching the FCC information and there aren't any links to the FCC in post #1.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> What rulings regarding D12 have been handed down since the approval to build? I've never been able to master the fine art of searching the FCC information and there aren't any links to the FCC in post #1.


There have not been any specific FCC Filings relative to D12. Nothing.

We check daily.

As soon as there's a hint of any D12 FCC info, it will be posted here.


----------



## LameLefty

In addition, Anik or a few other people some of us know may get hints from industry contacts from internal databases. To the extent that they can share this info before it's public, and to the extent that we in turn are allowed to discuss it before it gets put on some corporate public site, we will post here in this thread.

(For what it's worth, it's just this latter sort of info that leads many to believe that the remarks in the Directv 10K that D12 is going to 101W is a typo or misunderstanding. Similarly, for the same reasons, some of us knew D12 was going up on a Proton before Anik had it on his list).


----------



## dcowboy7

sixto:

u can change in your 1st post the line "up to" 200 national HD to "over" 200 nationals since thats what that last press release said....i know its just capacity but it still sounds better.


----------



## Sixto

dcowboy7 said:


> sixto:
> 
> u can change in your 1st post the line "up to" 200 national HD to "over" 200 nationals since thats what that last press release said....i know its just capacity but it still sounds better.


done. thx.


----------



## harsh

Failing anything interesting over at the FCC, I guess the only regularly updated forecasting tool that we have is the Russian launch organizers/watchers.

I'd be surprised if there were a lot of secrecy surrounding the ILS commercial launches.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Failing anything interesting over at the FCC, I guess the only regularly updated forecasting tool that we have is the Russian launch organizers/watchers.
> 
> I'd be surprised if there were a lot of secrecy surrounding the ILS commercial launches.


There's not secrecy about the launches per se, but they tend to play some of the technical aspects rather close to the vest. If I recall correctly, the next Proton-M/Briz-M launch after D10 (can't recall the name off-hand and not inclined to go look it up at the moment) failed due to what was later determined to have been an issue with the Briz-M. Getting technical details of that failure out of the Russian sources and into the space community as a whole was like pulling teeth, as was getting info about those mysterious "foreign particles" in the LOX tank of the Zenit-3SL which caused the very dramatic SeaLaunch launch failure awhile back.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> Failing anything interesting over at the FCC, I guess the only regularly updated forecasting tool that we have is the Russian launch organizers/watchers.
> 
> I'd be surprised if there were a lot of secrecy surrounding the ILS commercial launches.


Secrecy? Perhaps not. Mistakes? You betcha. Who was launching D10 vs. D11 was backward for months. Anik himself said that was how the filings he saw were listed at first.

All won't likely be clear in a few months, but hopefully will be clearer. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> There's not secrecy about the launches per se, but they tend to play some of the technical aspects rather close to the vest.


You stated in a previous post that there was information that you and Sixto may not be able to share. That's where my secrecy question came from.


> If I recall correctly, the next Proton-M/Briz-M launch after D10 (can't recall the name off-hand and not inclined to go look it up at the moment) failed due to what was later determined to have been an issue with the Briz-M.


AMC 14 had a failed Briz/M. The failed satellite you refer to was JCSat 11 and the story was that the Proton second stage failed (it crashed after two minutes).


> Getting technical details of that failure out of the Russian sources and into the space community as a whole was like pulling teeth, as was getting info about those mysterious "foreign particles" in the LOX tank of the Zenit-3SL which caused the very dramatic SeaLaunch launch failure awhile back.


Fortunately we're not looking for technical details of failures here; just news of planned launches.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> You stated in a previous post that there was information that you and Sixto may not be able to share.


I have said there is sometimes information or tidbits I am requested not to share. I have also said (today in fact), that if I am allowed to share it, I will.



> AMC 14 had a failed Briz/M. The failed satellite you refer to was JCSat 11 and the story was that the Proton second stage failed (it crashed after two minutes).


That's why I said, "If I recall correctly ..." I don't always have time to hit the research sites before posting, but the gist of my comments are correct: in the case of the Briz-M failure (which did, in fact, post-date D10), the details were pretty sketchy for awhile.



> Fortunately we're not looking for technical details of failures here; just news of planned launches.


And again, those details that the people posting in this thread are privy to and allowed to disseminate, we generally will. Those that we aren't, we won't. And those that we merely surmise, we'll surmise (subject to later revision of course).

As Tom says, things will become clearer over the next few months.


----------



## kevinwmsn

If Sirius FM-5 slips into July, can something else launch in June?


----------



## Sixto

kevinwmsn said:


> If Sirius FM-5 slips into July, can something else launch in June?


not likely. a sat launches every 4-6 weeks. a slip into July may only be a few day slip. last launch was 5/16. next currently scheduled for 6/29.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Secrecy? Perhaps not. Mistakes? You betcha. Who was launching D10 vs. D11 was backward for months. Anik himself said that was how the filings he saw were listed at first.
> 
> All won't likely be clear in a few months, but hopefully will be clearer.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Not in the least bit concerned here until we get into the June/July timeframe.


----------



## fornold

Sirius FM5 is now in Baikonur for early July launch.

http://eng.gazeta.kz/art.asp?aid=132304


----------



## harsh

fornold said:


> Sirius FM5 is now in Baikonur for early July launch.


Updated similarly on nasaspaceflight.com yesterday (Moscow time). I don't think it is putting the squeeze on AsiaSat 5 yet.


----------



## tkrandall

My apologies if this has already been covered in this long threaed, but this 10-K:

http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1047469-09-1907

_Satellite To Be Launched. DIRECTV 12 is planned for launch in the second half of 2009. DIRECTV 12 will operate from our 101° WL orbital location after successful completion of in-orbit testing. DIRECTV 12 will provide us with increased capability for local and national HD channels, as well as capacity for new interactive and enhanced services once it becomes operational._

Says DirecTV 12 will be operated at 101W. How will(?) that work with existing dish's and stack plan?


----------



## dcowboy7

tkrandall said:


> My apologies if this has already been covered in this long threaed, but this 10-K:
> 
> http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1047469-09-1907
> 
> _Satellite To Be Launched. DIRECTV 12 is planned for launch in the second half of 2009. DIRECTV 12 will operate from our 101° WL orbital location after successful completion of in-orbit testing. DIRECTV 12 will provide us with increased capability for local and national HD channels, as well as capacity for new interactive and enhanced services once it becomes operational._
> 
> Says DirecTV 12 will be operated at 101W. How will(?) that work with existing dish's and stack plan?


Yea its been covered here....possible typo ?


----------



## LameLefty

tkrandall said:


> My apologies if this has already been covered in this long threaed, but this 10-K:
> 
> http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1047469-09-1907
> 
> _Satellite To Be Launched. DIRECTV 12 is planned for launch in the second half of 2009. DIRECTV 12 will operate from our 101° WL orbital location after successful completion of in-orbit testing. DIRECTV 12 will provide us with increased capability for local and national HD channels, as well as capacity for new interactive and enhanced services once it becomes operational._
> 
> Says DirecTV 12 will be operated at 101W. How will(?) that work with existing dish's and stack plan?





dcowboy7 said:


> Yea its been covered here....possible typo ?


I think our cowboy friend is correct - almost certainly a typo or a simple mental disconnect between the technical folks and the, well, less technical folks who prepare the financial and investor presentations.


----------



## tkrandall

A 10-K is a bad place for a typo!


----------



## LameLefty

tkrandall said:


> A 10-K is a bad place for a typo!


Well, from my perspective (based on experience as both an engineer and an attorney) ANY place in official correspondence is a bad place for a typo. :grin:

However, having said that (and having made a few in my time), the reality is that putting "101 W" in a document rather than "103 W" or "99 W" is not a material error or omission that would affect investor value. The only entity that really cares where Directv puts Directv 12 is the FCC. The shareholders (and thus the SEC) only care that it launches more or less within the predicted time, and that it does provide the benefits that the 10-K says it does, regardless of the exact orbital slot (note that there are already multiple sats at all the locations and the "slots" are rounded to the nearest nominal position anyway in most documentation).


----------



## Drew2k

I truly love the word "nominal". Seriously - I get a kick out of it. 

And I have no idea why...


----------



## harsh

tkrandall said:


> A 10-K is a bad place for a typo!


Actually if you consider the long-winded safe harbor disclaimers you would think that these reports are always issued with fingers crossed behind their backs.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Actually if you consider the long-winded safe harbor disclaimers you would think that these reports are always issued with fingers crossed behind their backs.


 Heh. You mean they're not? :lol:


----------



## David Ortiz

Drew2k said:


> I truly love the word "nominal". Seriously - I get a kick out of it.
> 
> And I have no idea why...


"Sir, the mains are back online."


----------



## Paul A

Drew2k said:


> I truly love the word "nominal". Seriously - I get a kick out of it.
> 
> And I have no idea why...


Pronounced "Nah-MEE-Nol" :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

fornold said:


> Sirius FM5 is now in Baikonur for early July launch.
> 
> http://eng.gazeta.kz/art.asp?aid=132304


And just to put things in perspective in terms of the timeline of events, the FCC has accepted SiriusXM's application for permission to operate XM-5.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-291093A1.pdf

So if you figure a launch in early July, that's roughly 5 weeks' heads-up time. Similarly, we might expect similar filings from Directv regarding D12 around mid/late August.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> And just to put things in perspective in terms of the timeline of events, the FCC has accepted SiriusXM's application for permission to operate XM-5.
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-291093A1.pdf
> 
> So if you figure a launch in early July, that's roughly 5 weeks' heads-up time. Similarly, we might expect similar filings from Directv regarding D12 around mid/late August.


SiriusXM applied for the Sirius FM-5 license on 2/17/2009 and then time passed from application to approval, but application in February for launch late-June / early July seems reasonable. Is somewhat interesting that we haven't seen the D12 application yet. Not concerning, just interesting.


----------



## LameLefty

Just some stuff to pass the time while we wait:

For those interested in some more general information about the Proton-M/Briz-M launch vehicle which will be used to launch Directv 12 later this summer/early fall, here is the overview ILS has produced for the current launch campaign for SiriusXM FM-5. It's a different satellite platform, so the details of the exact launch profile shown on page 2 are different from what will be performed for D12. In general, however, the type of launch and transfer are the same. Specifically, the Briz-M upper stage will do a rather complicated series of burns to put the satellite into the proper GTO (geostationary transfer orbit). Given the high latitude of the launch location and the highly elliptical orbit, the projected ground tracks of the vehicle over the earth will be quite counter-intuitive and confusing, but things will settle down over time and make sense again. 

http://www.ilslaunch.com/assets/pdf/Sirius-FM-5-MO.pdf


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Not worried about the timelines in the least.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Just to get a better understanding of the D12 timeline. Last I read the launch date was not officially set yet. However, I read it's slated for end of September-_ish_. Question, how far in advance did they official announce D11's launch date? I'm just trying to gauge if we're still on pace for a launch in 90+ days from today.


----------



## harsh

Hutchinshouse said:


> Question, how far in advance did they official announce D11's launch date? I'm just trying to gauge if we're still on pace for a launch in 90+ days from today.


Remember that D11 went up via Sea Launch.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

harsh said:


> Remember that D11 went up via Sea Launch.


Yeah, I know it was a different contractor. I'm just looking to get a feel if we're still on pace to meet a launch date 90+ dates from now. Surly the contractor launching D12 has to have some history or a standard protocol for releasing launch dates.


----------



## harsh

Hutchinshouse said:


> Surly the contractor launching D12 has to have some history or a standard protocol for releasing launch dates.


ILS has a relatively easy to follow record, but you won't find it by researching Sea Launch who is far and away the most tight-lipped of contractors. With Sea Launch, you hear about delivery of the satellite by Boeing long before there's any mention of dates.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

harsh said:


> ILS has a relatively easy to follow record, but you won't find it by researching Sea Launch who is far and away the most tight-lipped of contractors. With Sea Launch, you hear about delivery of the satellite by Boeing long before there's any mention of dates.


I never said I was researching Sea Launch. If ILS has an "easy to follow record", my question remains. I'm just trying to gauge if we're still on pace for a launch in 90+ days from today.


----------



## LameLefty

The short answer is "Yes." The more precise (and perhaps more accurate) answer is, "Yes, so far as anyone knows publicly." The satellites are typically delivered to the launch provider 4 - 6 weeks ahead of the scheduled launch, which would mean D12 has to be delivered to the facilities in Baikonur by around mid-August (around 60 days from now, give or take). Similarly, documentation and approval for launch, testing and operation of the satellite will have to be filed with the FCC some time in advance of launch. However, as I noted the other day, SiriusXM's application for permission to operate their FM-5 satellite was submitted roughly the same time frame in advance of launch - 5 weeks. 

So, given that the more public steps in the process don't normally occur until 4 - 6 weeks ahead of launch, and we're still a couple months from that time frame, we can confidently say that nothing yet gives any indication that the late September target is off. 

Typically ILS has managed a sustained rate of approximately 1 Proton launch every month or so, though once they had two launch campaigns only two weeks apart. Assuming the payloads are ready on time, the holdup in a higher launch rate is usually booster/upperstage production and processing, not the launch operation itself.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

^Thanks for the info. :goodjob: Here's to D12


----------



## Sixto

Sirius FM-5 now has a date (posted 6/18) ...


Code:


June 29             – Sirius FM-5 – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur 
beginning of August – AsiaSat 5   – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
September           - Nimiq 5     – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
end of September    – DirecTV 12  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> So, given that the more public steps in the process don't normally occur until 4 - 6 weeks ahead of launch, and we're still a couple months from that time frame, we can confidently say that nothing yet gives any indication that the late September target is off.


Other than the fact that there's already a September launch scheduled (Nimiq 5)?


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Other than the fact that there's already a September launch scheduled (Nimiq 5)?


The launch campaign preceding that one is AsiaSat 5 in "beginning of August." That leaves 3 - 4 weeks for Nimiq 5 in "September" (presumably early September if the satellite is ready), and another 3 - 4 weeks for Directv 12 at "End of September." As you are well aware, and as I have already posted more than once, ILS usually runs one Proton a month more or less, but has done two in two weeks before. If the payloads are ready and if Khrunichev can deliver the boosters to the launch complex on schedule, ILS can launch them in the alloted time.

Also, given that the predicted launch date of SiriusXM FM-5 is now late June instead of the originally-projected early July and it's quite clear that ILS has the time to mount their launch campaigns, pending availability of the Proton/Briz boosters. In fact, given that FM-5 got moved up, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the schedule shuffles around a bit and everything slots into place in roughly 3-4 week increments throughout the summer and into fall.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> As you are well aware, and as I have already posted more than once, ILS usually runs one Proton a month more or less, but has done two in two weeks before.


As you are well aware and as I have posted before, the last time they tried the two week turnaround the launch vehicle went boom and scattered the payload and a whole lot of propellant all over the downrange. DIRECTV hasn't had a catastrophic launch failure in quite a while and with something as unique as DIRECTV 12 (there wouldn't seem to be anything aloft or on ground that could replace it), they can ill afford to try to set or tie any records.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> As you are well aware and as I have posted before, the last time they tried the two week turnaround the launch vehicle went boom and scattered the payload and a whole lot of propellant all over the downrange. DIRECTV hasn't had a catastrophic launch failure in quite a while and with something as unique as DIRECTV 12 (there wouldn't seem to be anything aloft or on ground that could replace it), they can ill afford to try to set or tie any records.


September/October. The net is hopefully it will be soon. We have 3 satellites in front of D12 so much activity prior to any launch of D12. If all goes perfectly, then maybe September. If all doesn't go so well, then maybe October or later ...


----------



## LameLefty

Nothing like a little catastrophizing to get the last weekend of spring off to a happy start, eh Harsh? :lol: I can see why you take such an interest and appear so worried about the future of D12, given your status as a long-time subscriber and all. Oh, wait ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> As you are well aware and as I have posted before, the last time they tried the two week turnaround the launch vehicle went boom and scattered the payload and a whole lot of propellant all over the downrange. DIRECTV hasn't had a catastrophic launch failure in quite a while and with something as unique as DIRECTV 12 (there wouldn't seem to be anything aloft or on ground that could replace it), they can ill afford to try to set or tie any records.


What interest would a Dish subscriber have in all this, if not to only present a "doom and gloom" forecast.

Just because Dish had a catastrophe sat issue doesn't mean its the norm or commonplace like you seem to make it sound.

D12 is moving along just fine, thank you, with or without those negative propagandized views.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> As you are well aware and as I have posted before, the last time they tried the two week turnaround the launch vehicle went boom and scattered the payload and a whole lot of propellant all over the downrange. DIRECTV hasn't had a catastrophic launch failure in quite a while and with something as unique as DIRECTV 12 (there wouldn't seem to be anything aloft or on ground that could replace it), they can ill afford to try to set or tie any records.


Ah .. Mr. Gloom and Doom I see. I'm pretty sure if I get into a head on collision with a semi on the way home today that I won't be here tomorrow. However, I'm still going to drive home.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

harsh said:


> As you are well aware and as I have posted before, the last time they tried the two week turnaround the launch vehicle went boom and scattered the payload and a whole lot of propellant all over the downrange. DIRECTV hasn't had a catastrophic launch failure in quite a while and with something as unique as DIRECTV 12 (there wouldn't seem to be anything aloft or on ground that could replace it), they can ill afford to try to set or tie any records.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> What interest would a Dish subscriber have in all this, if not to only present a "doom and gloom" forecast.
> 
> Just because Dish had a catastrophe sat issue doesn't mean its the norm or commonplace like you seem to make it sound.
> 
> D12 is moving along just fine, thank you, with or without those negative propagandized views.


Wow, I had no clue harsh was with DISH. That explains the pessimistic point of view.


----------



## MartyS

Hutchinshouse said:


> Wow, I had no clue harsh was with DISH. That explains the pessimistic point of view.


Yeah, he's with Dish, but I don't think you'll ever hear him say that. I wonder why he spends so much time here, since he has no DirecTV account or equipment.

Ah well, such is the way of open forums. Be careful who you listen to... you never know who they really are.


----------



## harsh

Hutchinshouse said:


> That explains the pessimistic point of view.


I like to think that the view I present is a little more realistic. Without access to the insurance bonding and other key milestone information, we have only educated guesses and history to go on.

I don't believe that comparing D12 to an SDARS or failed satellite launch is apples-to-apples. D12 will presumably be the third launch using the Proton M/Briz M Enhanced platform so the history may not be entirely comparable.

I also don't believe that you have to subscribe to a particular television entertainment delivery service to follow any and all kinds of orbiter launches.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So who launched D10 and D11, are they not the same launchers for D12?

Thanks


----------



## Sixto

theratpatrol said:


> So who launched D10 and D11, are they not the same launchers for D12?
> 
> Thanks


D10 was ILS (same as D12).

D11 was SeaLaunch.


----------



## tkrandall

I realize we still have not been told by DirecTV where D12 will be slotted and how its use will fit in with the the overall Ka band plan. 

In that context, my question is this - assuming Spaceway 1 and 2 are presently fully allocated (I realize they are very flexible) has DirecTV even fully allocated the bandwidth/transponders on D10 and D11? There had been a lot of speculation as to additional national HD channels this year which has not materialized, so I am wondering if D10 and D11 are indeed tapped out or is DirecTV holding back just on economics? Or will the presence D12 allow a reshuffling among all 5 Ka birds that will make for a more efficient frequency usage plan?


----------



## Sixto

tkrandall said:


> I realize we still have not been told by DirecTV where D12 will be slotted and how its use will fit in with the the overall Ka band plan.
> 
> In that context, my question is this - assuming Spaceway 1 and 2 are presently fully allocated (I realize they are very flexible) has DirecTV even fully allocated the bandwidth/transponders on D10 and D11? There had been a lot of speculation as to additional national HD channels this year which has not materialized, so I am wondering if D10 and D11 are indeed tapped out or is DirecTV holding back just on economics? Or will the presence D12 allow a reshuffling among all 5 Ka birds that will make for a more efficient frequency usage plan?


The last analysis: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1191863&postcount=2


----------



## doctor j

In regards to SW-1 and SW-2 the question is more about LIL.
Full capacity has not been determined and has many variables and may be limited by "uplink" capacity more than anything.

What has kept me interested in this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=159419

Has to do with LIL distribution and channel capacity.
No one has fully addressed the expectations from SW-1 and SW-2.
Some "problems" were alluded to early but to me the spaceways are a "BUST"

Data may be incomplete but gct's analysis has been fairly consistent.

If you take the LIL Transponder Channel map and sort by satellite , interesting and somewhat disturbing info about spaceways emerge.

SD:
101 - 669 channels
119 - 483 channels
72.5 - 196 channels

HD:
D-10 103 - 353 channels
D-11 99 - 391 channels
SW1 103 - 120 channels
SW2 99 - 41 channels??

This can't be what Directv had in mind when it "bought" into converting SW's from data to LIL TV usage!

Doctor j


----------



## Christopher Gould

doctor j said:


> In regards to SW-1 and SW-2 the question is more about LIL.
> Full capacity has not been determined and has many variables and may be limited by "uplink" capacity more than anything.
> 
> What has kept me interested in this thread:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=159419
> 
> Has to do with LIL distribution and channel capacity.
> No one has fully addressed the expectations from SW-1 and SW-2.
> Some "problems" were alluded to early but to me the spaceways are a "BUST"
> 
> Data may be incomplete but gct's analysis has been fairly consistent.
> 
> If you take the LIL Transponder Channel map and sort by satellite , interesting and somewhat disturbing info about spaceways emerge.
> 
> SD:
> 101 - 669 channels
> 119 - 483 channels
> 72.5 - 196 channels
> 
> HD:
> D-10 103 - 353 channels
> D-11 99 - 391 channels
> SW1 103 - 120 channels
> SW2 99 - 41 channels??
> 
> This can't be what Directv had in mind when it "bought" into converting SW's from data to LIL TV usage!
> 
> Doctor j


Directv has been moving locals off the Spaceways to D11-D12 i beleive to use them for locals in markets not covered by the fixed beams on D11-D12 and possibly a movie download service like XstreamHD. Just my guess.


----------



## inkahauts

doctor j said:


> In regards to SW-1 and SW-2 the question is more about LIL.
> Full capacity has not been determined and has many variables and may be limited by "uplink" capacity more than anything.
> 
> What has kept me interested in this thread:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=159419
> 
> Has to do with LIL distribution and channel capacity.
> No one has fully addressed the expectations from SW-1 and SW-2.
> Some "problems" were alluded to early but to me the spaceways are a "BUST"
> 
> Data may be incomplete but gct's analysis has been fairly consistent.
> 
> If you take the LIL Transponder Channel map and sort by satellite , interesting and somewhat disturbing info about spaceways emerge.
> 
> SD:
> 101 - 669 channels
> 119 - 483 channels
> 72.5 - 196 channels
> 
> HD:
> D-10 103 - 353 channels
> D-11 99 - 391 channels
> SW1 103 - 120 channels
> SW2 99 - 41 channels??
> 
> This can't be what Directv had in mind when it "bought" into converting SW's from data to LIL TV usage!
> 
> Doctor j


Just to make sure you know this.. There is more than one sat at 101, and 119.. and you have to look at how many transpoders are being used as well to start to try and compare these things. (and MPEG-2 SD takes a LOT let space than an MPEG-4 channel) The channels use the same amount of bandwidth if its the same channel no matter what sat its on...

Before D10 was activated and they launched HD LIL's on it, all HD LIL channels where on the spcaeways. They have moved LOTS of channels from the spaceways to D10 and D11.

I don't believe they ever filled the spaceways up, and frankly, don't think they ever intended too.. i am guessing they have something else in mind for them, and we won't know about it till after D12 is up and running... Also, do not forget the spaceways where not designed and built for Directv, and are much more advanced than any other Directv Sat... Much more.... It doesn't have an individual set of spot beams like all the other sats.. It uses a phased array, and they can change the target and the size of a spot beam on the fly... I predict some sort of VOD type stuff is going to be coming from them in the next year.. Or, you will see them used to fill in all the gaps in the rest of the fleets Spotbeams... The only issue they ever had with them was supposedly not being able to get one large conus beam to come from them.

And as I recall... the other reason they launched them as fast as they could was to keep their licenses for those locations and frequency from lapsing for not having sat there, and this was the best way to do it...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

inkahauts said:


> Just to make sure you know this.. There is more than one sat at 101, and 119.. and you have to look at how many transpoders are being used as well to start to try and compare these things. (and MPEG-2 SD takes a LOT let space than an MPEG-4 channel) The channels use the same amount of bandwidth if its the same channel no matter what sat its on...
> 
> Before D10 was activated and they launched HD LIL's on it, all HD LIL channels where on the spcaeways. They have moved LOTS of channels from the spaceways to D10 and D11.
> 
> I don't believe they ever filled the spaceways up, and frankly, don't think they ever intended too.. i am guessing they have something else in mind for them, and we won't know about it till after D12 is up and running... Also, do not forget the spaceways where not designed and built for Directv, and are much more advanced than any other Directv Sat... Much more.... It doesn't have an individual set of spot beams like all the other sats.. It uses a phased array, and they can change the target and the size of a spot beam on the fly... I predict some sort of VOD type stuff is going to be coming from them in the next year.. Or, you will see them used to fill in all the gaps in the rest of the fleets Spotbeams... The only issue they ever had with them was supposedly not being able to get one large conus beam to come from them.
> 
> And as I recall... the other reason they launched them as fast as they could was to keep their licenses for those locations and frequency from lapsing for not having sat there, and this was the best way to do it...


With the Spaceways, D10 and D11 they were suppose to get up to 1500 HD local channels between the 4. Is that not possible now that they're moving the locals off of the Spaceways onto D10/D11?


----------



## harsh

theratpatrol said:


> Is that not possible now that they're moving the locals off of the Spaceways onto D10/D11?


Read inkahauts' second paragraph _very_ carefully.


----------



## LameLefty

Interesting aside:

Not directly applicable to the D12, but very important in the Big Picture of the commercial launch industry:

Sea-Launch Files for Chapter 11 Protection. Their finances are in a mess (about $1B in debt, about $500M in assets according to this article) and customers jumping ship to other launch providers. Other sources put the debts at closer to $2B, but in any event, it's not a good situation. Even if they restructure under Chapter 11, I wonder if they can continue as a going concern. If Sea-Launch totally fails, that would be a Very Bad Thing from the perspective of satellite TV providers: less competition in the medium/heavy launch vehicle capabilities Directv needs to put Boeing 702-class satellites into GTO means higher prices. The only economically-viable launch providers have been ILS (Proton) and Sea-Launch (Zenit). Zenit isn't powerful enough to loft a satellite like D10/11/12 absent an equatorial launch site so if Sea-Launch goes under, the only vehicle left is Proton. Theoretically Ariane V could launch a 702, but Ariane V is vastly over-sized for a single satellite, which is why most or all of their commercial launches are dual-launches - two satellites at once. That limits operational flexibility and drives up processing time and cost. Also theoretically, a Delta IV Medium+ could launch a satellite like these, but the cost of launch would be astronomical. I suppose an Atlas V might be lower cost (due to use of Russian engines) and higher flight-rates, but it would still be much higher than ILS. America has basically lost out on the shrunken comsat launch market and cannot compete.

Anyway, just thought I'd share an interesting bit of news that will affect things in this arena for many years to come.


----------



## tkrandall

theratpatrol said:


> With the Spaceways, D10 and D11 they were suppose to get up to 1500 HD local channels between the 4. Is that not possible now that they're moving the locals off of the Spaceways onto D10/D11?


As I understand it, in terms of their downlink ability direct to the home, S1 and S2 are Ka A-band only, and D10 and D11 are B-band only. Is that correct?


----------



## LameLefty

tkrandall said:


> As I understand it, in terms of their downlink ability direct to the home, S1 and S2 are Ka A-band only, and D10 and D11 are B-band only. Is that correct?


Correct.


----------



## tkrandall

LameLefty said:


> Correct.


So... then don't they need to keep the Spaceways in use for HD carriage capacity? Doesn't DirecTV need that Ka A-band capacity to have enough banwidth for all the HD LILs?


----------



## evan_s

The spaceways are Ka Hi and D10/11 are Ka lo.

I don't think them moving locals off of the spaceway sats is any indication that can't or won't be able to provide the predicted number of locals. That may still be the case but that isn't why they are moving the locals off there. The spaceways are very different sats that D10 or D11 are and that has advantages and disadvantages. Ultimately I think DirecTV used the spaceway sats because they were a cheap, relatively speaking, quick way to get sats up and utilizing the new Ka bandwidth they had been allocated by the FCC. They were both launched in 2005 and D10 wasn't launched until 2 years later.

Can find more info at.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295

For a sat like D10 or D11 you design the spot pattern while it is on the ground knowing where it will go and where you want these spot beams to hit. Once the sat is launched you can rotate the sat moving all the spot beams or increase or decrease the power to a particular spot to increase or decrease it's size but can't really do anything else to change where the spot beams are aimed. The Spaceway sats use a phased array that allows them to change the size, location and even number of spots they provide on the fly while in orbit. This adds a lot of flexibility but it is at the cost of not being as efficient at providing the spots.

Initially all their HD locals were on the spaceways since they were the first sats launched. When they launched D10 they pick x markets they wanted to run on it from their existing markets and planned markets and setup the spot beams to cover them. Same thing for D11 and presumably they are doing the same for D12 right now. After launching D10 they first had to move the locals that were already on a spaceway sat from the spaceway sat to D10 and then they could reconfigure the spaceway sat to provide different locals. Repeat the same process for D11 and eventually D12 after it's launched. I'm sure the spaceways will be used for something but the natural pattern is to use them to get local markets up intially and then move them to the more efficient fixed aiming spots on different sat once they can.

I don't know if it's 100% accurate but the numbers I heard at one time were 500 each for d10/d11 and 250 each for spaceway 1 and 2 totaling up to the 1500 locals capacity. If those numbers are accurate all 4 of the sats still have some capacity left. Keep in mind that they may never be able to actually hit the 1500 locals number even if everything is working perfectly just because it's like playing a game of Tetris. You have a particular spot aimed at a particular location and it can provide X number of channels. If there are only X - 1 channels you need in that area you'll never be able to max out the capacity completely. You do design to try to minimize these wastes by overlapping spots etc but you can't completely eliminate them and they are present even with the spaceways and their phased array.


----------



## harsh

tkrandall said:


> Doesn't DirecTV need that Ka A-band capacity to have enough banwidth for all the HD LILs?


Tightly focused spotbeams can be a wonderful thing in the interest of limiting frequency bandwidth requirements. The yield would certainly be better than the 3:1 ratio compared to the CONUS capacity the claim.


----------



## harsh

evan_s said:


> For a sat like D10 or D11 you design the spot pattern while it is on the ground knowing where it will go and where you want these spot beams to hit. Once the sat is launched you can rotate the sat moving all the spot beams or increase or decrease the power to a particular spot to increase or decrease it's size but can't really do anything else to change where the spot beams are aimed.


Are you certain of this? I was under the impression that some of the spotbeam horns were independently directable.

Regrettably, Tibber's links to the FCC filings aren't working today.


----------



## evan_s

harsh said:


> Are you certain of this? I was under the impression that some of the spotbeam horns were independently directable.
> 
> Regrettably, Tibber's links to the FCC filings aren't working today.


There may be some flexibility in the design but nothing approaching what the phased array is capable of. Nothing in Tom's info indicates that any of the spotbeam horns are directable for d10/d11/d12. Given the flexibility that DirecTV already has with the Spaceway sats I don't know that it makes sense to add the extra complexity and weight to the sats to add some aiming capability to the spots.


----------



## tkrandall

I assume D12 is also Ka b-band as well, like D10 and D11. I find it interesting to know how DirecTV will manage the co-location of D12 with D10 or D11 at either 103w or 99w, with each bird capable of fully using all of the b-band by themselves. It must mean they plan more effective use of spots. Will we get a CONUS windfall out of that?


----------



## LameLefty

tkrandall said:


> I assume D12 is also Ka b-band as well, like D10 and D11. I find it interesting to know how DirecTV will manage the co-location of D12 with D10 or D11 at either 103w or 99w, with each bird capable of fully using all of the b-band by themselves. It must mean they plan more effective use of spots. Will we get a CONUS windfall out of that?


Until we see some FCC docs, we don't know for sure if D12 will be Ka-lo only, Ka-hi only, or a mixture of both.


----------



## inkahauts

I personally think we will know in the next 6 months what is gogin to happen, or at least partly 

And remember, spaceway can have up to 112 spotbeams each.. Way more than any other sat in their fleet... 

I have a feeling that once D12 is up and running, they will MAP out placement for every LIL HD channel on a D10, D11, or D12 at its maximum utilization of its resources, and then use one or two of the spaceways (if needed) to fill in the gaps... and until I see something different I will continue to speculate that one or both of the spaceways will end up being used for something a little different than just regular full time channels in the next year..

I also expect us to see 1080P channels soon for all the HD Directv Cinema channels.. and maybe a few premiums. 

Looking at the time frames begin talked about, I expect that we will see D12 used for some sort of testing again like D11 was.. Because if they launch in September, then it doesn't make any sense as to why it would be Jan or latter before we saw more HD channels, yet all indications are is that is the time frames we are looking at, which would be inline with what we saw from D11.. Also, I wonder how the new uplink center that we have been seeing a lot of filings for, and was tested last month will fit into all this.. Maybe that is needed before they can fill up all the spots on D10, D11, D12 and the spaceways too.... 

I would love to get an inside tour of Directv's plans for sats, and how they are planning on diving up their bandwidth..


----------



## bobnielsen

inkahauts said:


> I would love to get an inside tour of Directv's plans for sats, and how they are planning on diving up their bandwidth..


As would most of us


----------



## Tom Robertson

bobnielsen said:


> As would most of us


It's quite easy. Alls youse gots to do is be VP of satellite stuff or CTO.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

inkahauts said:


> I would love to get an inside tour of Directv's plans for sats, and how they are planning on diving up their bandwidth..


I wonder how much MPEG4 HD they could put at 101?


----------



## Tom Robertson

theratpatrol said:


> I wonder how much MPEG4 HD they could put at 101?


The same 1GHz bandwidth they can put at 99 and 103. 

But, without LNB changes, nothing to the home. 101 is currently all backhauls.


----------



## inkahauts

Tom Robertson said:


> The same 1GHz bandwidth they can put at 99 and 103.
> 
> But, without LNB changes, nothing to the home. 101 is currently all backhauls.


I think he means in general, not neccxissarly Ka -Lo.. 

I don't bother even thinking about that.. First, not as much as you think... Second, SD isn't going away for a long time, so no point in wondering that.. I have a feeling we might see BSS sats before we see sd mpeg-2 go away...


----------



## evan_s

tkrandall said:


> I assume D12 is also Ka b-band as well, like D10 and D11. I find it interesting to know how DirecTV will manage the co-location of D12 with D10 or D11 at either 103w or 99w, with each bird capable of fully using all of the b-band by themselves. It must mean they plan more effective use of spots. Will we get a CONUS windfall out of that?


Thats one of the frequent topics of discussion and the short answer is no one outside of DirecTV and probably Boeing knows for sure currently. We should know before the launch when they file with the FCC since it should include the uplink and downlink frequencies.

There are a number of possibilities that have been discussed and the short explanation is that while there are sats at each of the 4 spots (99 and 103 in ka hi and lo or ka a and b) they aren't really maxed out at any of the slots. For example we know d10 ran 16 conus tp for a while before d11 launched so it is possible to run more conus transponders than they currently do even from just a single sat. They also shouldn't need 10 tp for all the spot beams since 101 only uses 5 tps and 119 only uses 3 to provide their spots. With a second sat it shouldn't be too hard to power up at least 4 more additional conus tps and still have enough tps left for the spots. Obviously there isn't enough free tps for the entire 14 tps conus tps that they are currently using on d10/d11.

Personally my current guess is that it will got at 103 with D10 running all in ka lo/ka b band. They will then end up running 10 conus tps off each of the sats leaving 4 tps for the spots. Because they are powering fewer tps they will switch from the QPSK they are currently using to 8PSK allowing them to fit 7 channels per tp for a total of 140 channels on the 20 tps. Since they are running fewer conus tps they will also be able to increase the power to them to help compensate for the 8PSK being more susceptible to noise and interference. They currently use 8psk on the spots and it generally allows 50% more usable bandwidth than QPSK.

The advantage of this scenario is d12 remains configured identically to the other 2 sats providing the most long term flexibility as the sats age and experience failures etc. D12 configured as Ka hi/a would make it unique and different from the other two sats and would prevent them from being interchangeable in the future.

This is just my current guess and I have changed my mind in the past. To the best of my knowledge everything presented is accurate but it is largely based on information gathered from this site and others that is pulled from FCC filings and other information we are able to see and not directly provided by DirecTV etc.

Even after D12 is launched and in service somewhere DirecTv still has room for more expansion in it's Ka licenses at 99/103. I don't think spaceway 1 and 2 are anywhere near fully utilizing their Ka hi slots and you could probably locate them both at one slot and put a new sat at the now empty slot. There is also clearly some additional potential at ka lo/b with d10 and d11 for more conus tps/spots even with out the additional changes I theorized about.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Sirius FM-5 now has a date (posted 6/18) ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> June 29             – Sirius FM-5 – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
> beginning of August – AsiaSat 5   – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
> September           - Nimiq 5     – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
> end of September    – DirecTV 12  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur


Sirius FM-5 now doesn't have a date - again (posted 6/25).

Also, DirecTV 12 now in list before Nimiq 5 but that might just be a formatting anomaly.

Very odd that no FCC document yet. Yes, may be fine, but usually there's at least an application on file by now.


Code:


July                – Sirius FM-5 – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
beginning of August – AsiaSat 5   – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
end of September    – DirecTV 12  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
September           – Nimiq 5     – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Sirius FM-5 now doesn't have a date - again (posted 6/25).


Found this post giving June 30th on a site I hadn't visited before: http://spacefellowship.com/News/?p=9150

Predecessors moving up bodes well for DIRECTV 12 assuming that Boeing does their part.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Sirius FM-5 now doesn't have a date - again (posted 6/25).


Technical problems with the Briz-M upper stage, apparently. If it's a processing glitch (i.e., brought about by a one-off mistake by ILS personnel), it's not a biggie for the downstream launch schedule. If it's an issue with the stage itself due to manufacturing defects, or an issue with the ground support equipment at the launch site, it _may_ be a big issue for ILS (and hence Directv as well).


----------



## LameLefty

SiriusXM FM-5 is back on the manifest for June 30. I guess ILS got things worked out. That's good news. However, the late September schedule for Baikonur is getting very crowded, with two Protons and a Soyuz all listed, plus the undetermined "September" date for Nimiq-5. I know the U.S. could never support so many launches so quickly absent some kind of emergency. If nothing else, the USAF Eastern Test Range probably couldn't reconfigure their safety and monitoring systems so quickly. I don't know how much range safety compares between the U.S. and Russia/former Soviet countries.


----------



## woj027

LameLefty said:


> SiriusXM FM-5 is back on the manifest for June 30. I guess ILS got things worked out. That's good news. However, the late September schedule for Baikonur is getting very crowded, with two Protons and a Soyuz all listed, plus the undetermined "September" date for Nimiq-5. I know the U.S. could never support so many launches so quickly absent some kind of emergency. If nothing else, the USAF Eastern Test Range probably couldn't reconfigure their safety and monitoring systems so quickly. I don't know how much range safety compares between the U.S. and Russia/former Soviet countries.


Any word on if SiriusXM FM-5 launched successfully?

Found my answer.. (although by my math, it should launch in 1 hour from my posting 11:05 pst)

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2144521


----------



## LameLefty

woj027 said:


> Any word on if SiriusXM FM-5 launched successfully?


T-0 time is 2:10 CDT so we've still got 66 minutes until launch, more or less.


----------



## Tom Robertson

woj027 said:


> Any word on if SiriusXM FM-5 launched successfully?
> 
> Found my answer.. (although by my math, it should launch in 1 hour from my posting 11:05 pst)
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2144521


Currently scheduled for 50 minutes from how: http://ilslaunch.com/sirius-fm-5-mission-control

And the webcast starts in 40 minutes.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

FM-5 is up, up, and away . . . the first of five Briz-M upper stage burns is underway. It'll be awhile (about 9 hours and 14 minutes) until the spacecraft separates from the upper stage after all burns are complete.


----------



## MikeR7

All systems nominal? :lol:


----------



## harsh

Spaceflight Now said:


> The next ILS Proton launch is scheduled for early August with the AsiaSat 5 communications satellite. That mission will be followed by the launch of Canada's Nimiq 5 spacecraft in early fall, officials said.


The "officials" in this case would appear to be representatives of ILS. Accordingly, anik changed the DIRECTV 12 launch timeframe to "end of September/October".

Fall begins September 22nd.


----------



## Ernie

inkahauts said:


> .......
> 
> And remember, spaceway can have up to 112 spotbeams each.. Way more than any other sat in their fleet...
> ........


In the way they use it, it only has 24 downlink spotbeams (compared to the 49 each on D10 and D11). (The 112 number is for uplinks). That configuration is probably a result of its original role as a backhaul machine.

Ernie


----------



## LameLefty

Ernie said:


> In the way they use it, it only has 24 downlink spotbeams (compared to the 49 each on D10 and D11). (The 112 number is for uplinks). That configuration is probably a result of its original role as a backhaul machine.
> 
> Ernie


That's not correct, I don't believe. Just because you see 24 slots on the signal strength screen doesn't mean each sat has 24 spotbeams. The Spaceways have phased-array antennas and are vastly more flexible than that. And they were not intended as backhaul sats, they were intended to be part of a multi-satellite constellation providing high-speed data to the home; as such, and as originally configured, they were intended to be able to route signals between spacecraft, the ground station(s) and home users. Only Boeing, Hughes and Directv know for sure how they ended up being built out as compared to the original plan, but I strongly suspect this type of data handling flexibility is why Directv has unloaded the Spaceways and pushed so much LIL traffic to D10/D11 in recent months. I think the Spaceways are being used or being planned to be used to push "faster than realtime" programming data to the reserved hard drive space on DVRs, as part of On Demand.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The Spaceways are extremely flexible. They can be reconfigured for many, many spotbeams on the fly, using just a few transponder downlink frequencies. So, how they operate today is not likely how they operated last week, nor how they will operate next week. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ernie

Tom Robertson said:


> The Spaceways are extremely flexible. They can be reconfigured for many, many spotbeams on the fly, using just a few transponder downlink frequencies. So, how they operate today is not likely how they operated last week, nor how they will operate next week.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


But there are limits to what the physical machine can do. They are pretty much outlined in: SAT-MOD-20040614-00113, Exhibit D:
http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-69299

Section 5.2.2, first sentence describes down link usage and section 7.2 describes the downlink antenna.

Ernie


----------



## LameLefty

Ernie said:


> But there are limits to what the physical machine can do. They are pretty much outlined in: SAT-MOD-20040614-00113, Exhibit D:
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-69299
> 
> Section 5.2.2, first sentence describes down link usage and section 7.2 describes the downlink antenna.
> 
> Ernie


The key is "hopping" spot beams. As Tom says, the configuration can and will change. I believe that is the whole point of getting a big chunk of the LILs off the Spaceways, to free up processing and spot beam capability from being "locked" onto a small number of specific geographical regions, instead allowing the beams to move as necessary for advanced data services (such as pushed content) as originally contemplated.

EDITED TO ADD: Anyway, this is getting pretty far afield from D12. Maybe Tom or one of the other Mods could break this sub-discussion out into another thread.


----------



## LameLefty

Anyway, back to the "pre-D12" topic, it appears the Briz-M successfully completed the fifth and final burn to place FM-5 into the proper geosynchronous transfer orbit, so chalk up another success for ILS. Two more launches before D12, plus a couple other launches for the Russian government before and afterwards. Baikonur is gonna be a busy place this summer/fall.


----------



## inkahauts

Ernie said:


> In the way they use it, it only has 24 downlink spotbeams (compared to the 49 each on D10 and D11). (The 112 number is for uplinks). That configuration is probably a result of its original role as a backhaul machine.
> 
> Ernie


I'd like to know wher you found that information? I have never seen more than 6 transponders lit up on any one screen for a spaceway sat, as spotbeams are reused seperatly in different areas, and therefore unless you work for Directv or have inside info, there is no way for any of us to actually know how many transponders Directv is actually or can actually use on those sats that I can think of. If anyone knows please tell me! I'd love to know! (and adding up how many are markets are getting signals from the spaceways on different sats right now will not tell us either)

With that said..

Looks like yesterdays launch was a complete success, and everything went to schedule! YEAH!!!!!

Too bad they can't launch two rockets at the same time, and just send them in slightly different directions...


----------



## LameLefty

inkahauts said:


> I'd like to know wher you found that information?


The FCC document from 2004 (application to modify Spaceway 2) had technical info discussing a limit of 24 individual spots (_at a time_  ) but it was unclear to me (as I'm not a comsat guy per se) whether that is limited by uplink frequencies, spacecraft processing capability, or both).

But I don't think it really matters, given the "unloading" of so many LILs from the Spaceways.



> Looks like yesterdays launch was a complete success, and everything went to schedule! YEAH!!!!!
> 
> Too bad they can't launch two rockets at the same time, and just send them in slightly different directions...


ILS can launch about every two weeks if the launch vehicles are ready (i.e., not still at the Kruchinev (*) factory), the spacecraft are ready, the pads and launch range aren't otherwise committed, etc.

(*) The Proton manufacturer. No, I haven't googled how to spell this late in the day so if I'm wrong on the commonly-accepted transliteration of the Russian word here, I just don't care.


----------



## P Smith

I recall ( will recheck later ) seen in SI tables those SW-1/2 maps with 160+ transponders.

EDIT: Found old records where in tpn table of SW-2 physical tpn number goes up to #240 of (before D-11). Some new notes did shows max #166 for SW-1.


----------



## tkrandall

Has anyone spotted this already?
http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=704752

Lots of info from DirecTV on DirecTV12 use/location, request for Ka slot a 97w, "reverse band" applications, and extension of 72.5w operations.

D12: to be located at 103w as a spot beam replacement for D10. I guess this means D10 will be conus only (still only B Band?)? D12 will also have conus capacity (no specific on A and/or B band)

97w Ka slot application mentioned

17/24 Ghz reverse band: requests for 99w, 103w, 107w, 111w.

72.5w: extended agreement with Telesat to Sept 2011. Going from even to odd transponders at some point. Phase out by Sept 2011. Not sure how the even/odd swap works with/affects the DISH operations at 72.7w.

Lot's of other info on backhauls, uplinks, etc.

Credit to post #11 in
http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/177827-dish-pick-up-other-16-transponder-72-5w.html


----------



## Sixto

tkrandall said:


> Has anyone spotted this already?
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=704752


Interesting stuff ... thanks for posting ... thought we had the FCC vast data repository totally scrubbed! ...


----------



## LameLefty

tkrandall said:


> Has anyone spotted this already?
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=704752
> 
> Lots of info from DirecTV on DirecTV12 use/location, request for Ka slot a 97w, "reverse band" applications, and extension of 72.5w operations.
> 
> D12: to be located at 103w as a spot beam replacement for D10. I guess this means D10 will be conus only (still only B Band?)? D12 will also have conus capacity (no specific on A and/or B band)
> 
> 97w Ka slot application mentioned
> 
> 17/24 Ghz reverse band: requests for 99w, 103w, 107w, 111w.
> 
> 72.5w: extended agreement with Telesat to Sept 2011. Going from even to odd transponders at some point. Phase out by Sept 2011. Not sure how the even/odd swap works with/affects the DISH operations at 72.7w.
> 
> Lot's of other info on backhauls, uplinks, etc.
> 
> Credit to post #11 in
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/177827-dish-pick-up-other-16-transponder-72-5w.html


Interesting presentation. I have not seen that document before (despite routine searches of the FCC's confusing mass of not-quite-linked-together databases  ).

Interesting that this presentation mentions the 97W location. It must predate the FCC's action rejecting Directv's application for that slot on the basis that they had not yet announced Dish's forfeiture of the slot and the acceptance of new applications.

The info on ground stations squares well with what actions we HAVE seen so far with regard to applications/licenses for Directv this year. The specific mention of D12 as a replacement for the D10 spotbeams at 103 also squares with very early rumors regarding D10 having problems with certain spotbeam configurations, especially in certain "corners" of the coverage area.

Anyway, good find. :up: :goodjob:


----------



## smiddy

Speaking of FCC databases, I was on there last night becuase I am writing a Rain Fade for DBSTalk-ers...and discusvered nearly all of the links from Tom's References are in error now. I was looking for the link budget data in order to correlate signal strengths. Anyhow, I think the FCC is working the database issues, but they are slow moving unfortunately.


----------



## Sixto

*A special thank you to tkrandall!
*
*Recent Developments and Plans for 2009
Romulo Pontual - Chief Technology Officer 
26 March 2009*

*Review of Recent Events*

DIRECTV 11 successfully launched in March 2008, began commercial operations in July 2008
Have continued to extend local-into-local service
150 DMAs in Standard Def (95% of TVHHs)
119 DMAs in High Def (89% of TVHHs)

De-orbit of DIRECTV 1 (Feb. 09) and DIRECTV 2 (May 07)
Received agreement from Holland for DIRECTV 7S, allowing official notification at ITU (Feb. 09)
Launched effort to clear terrestrial operators from upper B-band
Terrestrial use of this band sunsets on:
June 8, 2010 for 18.58-18.8 GHz "upper 220"
Nov. 19, 2012 for 18.3-18.58 GHz "lower 280"

Identified and addressed worst cases

Monitoring MVDDS developments
*New Satellite Applications*
DIRECTV 12
Ka-band satellite to be operated at 103 WL under construction
Launch estimated as Sept-Nov 2009
Spot beam replacement for DIRECTV 10 - also capable of performing spot beam mission of DIRECTV 11 at 99 WL
Sufficient CONUS capacity to support 80 additional national channels of HD programming as well
Application nearly complete and will be filed soon


DIRECTV 97W
Applied on March 9 for new Ka-band satellite at 97 WL
EchoStar failed to meet launch and operate milestone
Full 1000 MHz payload
CONUS/AK/HI beam coverage to support national HD programming


*17/24 GHz BSS*
DIRECTV filed reverse band applications for 99 WL, 103 WL, 107 WL, 111 WL, and 119 WL
Application for 119 WL later withdrawn
Other applications remain pending

DIRECTV, Intelsat, and Pegasus entered into Rationalization Agreement to consolidate their respective spectrum holdings at three orbital locations (91 WL, 99 WL, and 107 WL)
DIRECTV amendment application for 107 WL filed Sep. 16, 2008
Remains pending

FNPRM and petitions for reconsideration pending
Canada and other administrations have already issued licenses at mulitple locations
*Extension of Operations at 72.5 WL*

DIRECTV has been operating from Canadian DBS slot at 72.5 WL since September 2004
DIRECTV 1R currently in operation

Agreement with Telesat Canada presumptively scheduled to terminate on December 31, 2009, subject to certain extension provisions
DIRECTV and Telesat have extended their agreement
Switch from even transponders to odd
16 transponders in January 2010
Total phase-out by September 2011

Allows a more orderly transition of subscribers to new Ka-band services
*Ka-Band and DBS Earth Station Licensing Streamlining*

Ka-band Earth Station Licensing
Currently, Ka-band earth station licenses must specify individual points of contact
Proposal: make Ka-band satellites part of ALSAT designation
Pre-cleared the idea with DoD contacts
Petition for Rulemaking drafted
Discussing with others in the satellite industry - hoping to finalize and file soon

DBS Earth Station Licensing
Similar to Ka-band, in that specific points of contact are specified
Proposal: create a new "DSAT" designation to allow DIRECTV feeder link earth stations to communicate with any DIRECTV DBS satellite
Similar to "ISAT" approach adopted for Inmarsat last year

*New Earth Station Plans*

Two new Ka-band feeder link antennas will be required for DIRECTV 12
These will be located at LABC and Long Beach (CBC)
Applications submitted early February 2009

A new TTAC antenna will be used for DIRECTV 12
This will be located at NEUF

A new 9m 17/24 GHz BSS reverse band antenna will be built at the
NWUF
Will file after space station authorizations are issued

Longer-term plan to relocate DBS feeder link antennas from LABC to CBC 
Allows installation of additional Ka-band feeder link assets at LABC for greater redundancy
Land already available for expansion at CBC

*Looking Forward*

Launch and operation of DIRECTV 12
HD carry one, carry all implementation
Development and build out of 17/24 GHz BSS assets
ITU filings
International coordination


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Interesting presentation. I have not seen that document before (despite routine searches of the FCC's confusing mass of not-quite-linked-together databases  ).


You're being far too kind. The FCC search engine is irrefutable evidence that it is possible to entirely screw things up with a computer.


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> You're being far too kind. The FCC search engine is irrefutable evidence that it is possible to entirely screw things up with a computer.


Perhaps you should offer to help them straighten it out? :lol:


----------



## Sixto

post 884 is now complete with the entire text.

will eventually summarize into post #1.


----------



## tkrandall

Notice there is a phase-out stated/implied for 72.5w between Jan 2010 and Sept 2011. D12 is no doubt a key player in allowing this phaseout to take place.


----------



## harsh

tkrandall said:


> D12 is no doubt a key player in allowing this phaseout to take place.


As it has been reported that all 72.5W markets are already distributed amongst the existing fleet, D12 would seem to have nothing to do with it.


----------



## harsh

smiddy said:


> Perhaps you should offer to help them straighten it out? :lol:


First they need to be convinced that it needs straightening out and I don't think any of us will live that long. Somebody probably has an in-law that makes a lot of money digesting the information.

Public information certainly isn't very public and it seems to be getting worse instead of better.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tkrandall said:


> Notice there is a phase-out stated/implied for 72.5w between Jan 2010 and Sept 2011. D12 is no doubt a key player in allowing this phaseout to take place.


That's how I read all the details too.

This is a great bit of updated information.


----------



## tkrandall

harsh said:


> As it has been reported that all 72.5W markets are already distributed amongst the existing fleet, D12 would seem to have nothing to do with it.


Perhaps so. I meant in the context of all that is going on, including new HD local launches and eventual more national HD launches as well.


----------



## LameLefty

Another intersting point that jumps out is the new 9m (30' more or less) antenna for BSS operations - that's no small investment. Combined with the BSS applications for 107W (and eventually it is presumed, a timely-filed one for 97W), Directv is obviously looking several years down the road for future bandwidth needs. Given that any broadcasts from 107 and/or 97 will need completely new LNBs and possibly (probably?) dish reflectors, as well as a new stack-plan that can deal with it all (and maybe some kind of "super SWM" that can remodulate all the signals onto existing RG6 as needed), these are some seriously forward-thinking plans.

Those that might think D12 is the end of the road for satellite TV from Directv are only half-right: it's only a way-point.


----------



## HoTat2

Thanks tkrandall;

Great find and finally something official from the FCC on D12, but from the document's description I'm still not exactly sure how D12's supplementing spotbeams for D10 is supposed to increase CONUS transponder capacity at 103WL. 

But I'll meditate on it some more I guess...


----------



## Sixto

So now we can start discussing how to implement:

D12 at 103 WL
1. Spot beam replacement for DIRECTV 10 at 103 WL

2. Also capable of performing spot beam mission of DIRECTV 11 at 99 WL

3. Sufficient CONUS capacity to support 80 additional national channels of HD programming as well

Gotta get my thoughts together on how they would implement this.


----------



## tkrandall

You know there has to be at least a few techs at DTV that also enjoy reading these forums. They must get at chuckle at watching us try and figure this stuff out!


----------



## bobnielsen

tkrandall said:


> You know there has to be at least a few techs at DTV that also enjoy reading these forums. They must get at chuckle at watching us try and figure this stuff out!


I suspect that you are correct (Hi, Earl!)


----------



## Sixto

To start (today), we have ... (still working on this)


Code:


D10  Ka-Lo  103°  RHCP  13v/22kHz   Odd-TPs   250- 750MHz  18300-18800MHz  TP 1-13(7)  Nat
                                                           B-Band          TP15-23(5) Spot
D10  Ka-Lo  103°  LHCP  18v/22kHz  Even-TPs   250- 750MHz  18300-18800MHz  TP 2-14(7)  Nat
                                                           B-Band          TP16-24(5) Spot
SW1  Ka-Hi  103°  RHCP  13v/22kHz   Odd-TPs  1650-2150MHz  19700-20200MHz  TP 1- 5(3) Spot
                                                           A-Band
SW1  Ka-Hi  103°  LHCP  18v/22kHz  Even-TPs  1650-2150MHz  19700-20200MHz  TP 2- 6(3) Spot
                                                           A-Band

Then we project the future ...


Code:


D12  Ka-Lo  103°  RHCP  13v/22kHz   Odd-TPs   250- 750MHz  18???-18???MHz  TP ?-??(?)  Nat
                                                           B-Band          TP??-??(?) Spot
D12  Ka-Lo  103°  LHCP  18v/22kHz  Even-TPs   250- 750MHz  18???-18???MHz  TP ?-??(?)  Nat
                                                           B-Band          TP??-??(?) Spot
D12  Ka-Hi  103°  RHCP  13v/22kHz   Odd-TPs  1650-2150MHz  19???-20???MHz  TP ?- ?(?)  Nat
                                                           A-Band          TP??-??(?) Spot
D12  Ka-Hi  103°  LHCP  18v/22kHz  Even-TPs  1650-2150MHz  19???-20???MHz  TP ?- ?(?)  Nat
                                                           A-Band          TP??-??(?) Spot

*1. Spot beam replacement for DIRECTV 10 at 103 WL*

Would assume that they could replace all or just some of the spots at 18604-18800MHz.

*2. Also capable of performing spot beam mission of DIRECTV 11 at 99 WL*

This is probably just language to explain backup scenarios

*3. Sufficient CONUS capacity to support 80 additional national channels of HD programming as well*

Would assume that this still could be Ka-Lo or KA-Hi. 16 Transponders at 5 HD each would be 80, or might they have more powerful transponders on D12 to do more then 5 HD each.


----------



## Ed Campbell

"Theoretically Ariane V could launch a 702, but Ariane V is vastly over-sized for a single satellite, which is why most or all of their commercial launches are dual-launches - two satellites at once."

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSL138473420090701

Arianespace launch of single sat @ 15,200lbs, built by Loral. Didn't D11 weigh less?


----------



## LameLefty

Ed Campbell said:


> "Theoretically Ariane V could launch a 702, but Ariane V is vastly over-sized for a single satellite, which is why most or all of their commercial launches are dual-launches - two satellites at once."
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSL138473420090701
> 
> Arianespace launch of single sat @ 15,200lbs, built by Loral.


That's true. Still oversized for a single sat though, and not their typical or preferred mode of operation. 

Ariane V was intended and sized to launch ESA's planned Hermes manned spaceplane. That program never came to fruition, but Ariane V did.


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> First they need to be convinced that it needs straightening out and I don't think any of us will live that long. Somebody probably has an in-law that makes a lot of money digesting the information.
> 
> Public information certainly isn't very public and it seems to be getting worse instead of better.


Ah man, I know you can do it.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Those that might think D12 is the end of the road for satellite TV from Directv are only half-right: it's only a way-point.


 It is very apparent someone has plans for the future and BSS is a part of it. Those capabilities are not even fully understood by the vast majority of folks. I can't wait to see the future.


----------



## tkrandall

Concerning BSS, I just hope here in Georgia (84.6w) I won't ever need anything west of 103w where D10 is and D12 will be. I had line of site to 119w and 110w at one point, but no longer do due to tree growth.


----------



## Sixto

With the discovery yesterday that "old" FCC Filings can have "comments" added/attached without an obvious update to the old Filing. Went back and individually looked through every DirecTV FCC Filing for the past year and found nothing else significant.

Based on Romulo's one D12 page, our speculation can go a few different ways.

It says D12 is a "spot beam replacement for D10". At first it may appear that they'd turn off the D10 spots and use the transponders for national channels, but D10 only has 4 additional national transponders (for backup). Maybe they'll use two of them like they did in the early D10 days. That would still leave 8 spot frequencies that D10 and D12 could share.

Another thought is that by turning off spot transponders on D10, maybe they can increase the power on some of the D10 national transponders to enable 8PSK with more then 5 HD per transponder on those transponders (I need to re-read through the D10 specs to verify the power profile).

It's just not clear what "replacement for D10" means. Total replacement or just replacing the few bad spot transponders. Even with a total replacement, you'd still need the spot frequencies for D12.

For D12, it specifically states "sufficient CONUS capacity to support 80 additional national channels of HD". So it appears that 80 are going on D12 rather then just increasing significantly the D10 national transponder capability. And since it doesn't appear at first look that they're freeing up many frequencies from D10, maybe they're using Ka-Hi for national, which would provide plenty of bandwidth from SW1, and maybe they can also do more then 5 HD transponder on D12. But there's always the possibility to increase national transponder power on both D10 & D12, and use Ka-Lo on less transponders but with higher throughput (if technically possible).

Lots of speculation but those would be my initial thoughts. Be interesting in see other's speculation.

How would you combine D10/D12/SW1 will the latest info:

Spot beam replacement for DIRECTV 10 at 103 WL
Also capable of performing spot beam mission of DIRECTV 11 at 99 WL
Sufficient CONUS capacity to support 80 additional national channels of HD programming as well
And Happy 4th!


----------



## bobnielsen

I can't see how increasing the power of a transponder would allow more channels to be carried, since the bandwidth would remain unchanged. That would require either greater compression or a different modulation method (which has been mentioned before). Substituting CONUS for spot beams on a couple of transponders would certainly help, but would only yield the additional capacity for 10 more channels. 

I'm still leaning toward Ka-hi, with a possible repositioning of SW1 to 99, as the only way to see the addition of a significant number of new HD channels near term.

In any case, it will be interesting to watch the upcoming developments.


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> I can't see how increasing the power of a transponder would allow more channels to be carried, since the bandwidth would remain unchanged. That would require either greater compression or a different modulation method (which has been mentioned before).


Oh yes, was referring to the switch from QPSK to 8PSK, which requires more power.


----------



## harsh

bobnielsen said:


> I can't see how increasing the power of a transponder would allow more channels to be carried, since the bandwidth would remain unchanged.


The theory behind adding power is that you can reduce error correction provisions. It works well for Ku but the question would be if it translates well to Ka in the context of the type of data being transmitted.

Using delta compression complicates things in a big way.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> How would you combine D10/D12/SW1 will the latest info:
> 
> Spot beam replacement for DIRECTV 10 at 103 WL
> Also capable of performing spot beam mission of DIRECTV 11 at 99 WL
> Sufficient CONUS capacity to support 80 additional national channels of HD programming as well


I think this may all be part of a side campaign to prove that D12 is still capable of functioning as a spare to the other satellites.

I remain unconvinced about how it is going to add substantial CONUS capacity absent link budget information.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> I think this may all be part of a side campaign to prove that D12 is still capable of functioning as a spare to the other satellites.
> 
> I remain unconvinced about how it is going to add substantial CONUS capacity absent link budget information.


To follow your theory ... D12 gets launched ... where would the new HD be transmitting from?


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> To follow your theory ... D12 gets launched ... where would the new HD be transmitting from?


I don't have even a guess.

Then again, I'm not the making (nor do I feel compelled to justify) the claims.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> I don't have even a guess.
> 
> Then again, I'm not the making (nor do I feel compelled to justify) the claims.


No guess, No claims, No justification ... we'll move on to more productive behavior.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> I think this may all be part of a side campaign to prove that D12 is still capable of functioning as a spare to the other satellites.
> 
> I remain unconvinced about how it is going to add substantial CONUS capacity absent link budget information.


There is no documented data to support any such "side campaign".

Based on their announced expansion of channel capacity once D12 is in place, it is reasonable for anyone to assume that they would use that capacity, rather than incur a cost for dormant assets just sitting up there - that would make no sense in any business case.

Sure, some will be backup/space bandwidth (also a sound practice), but the new added bandwidth is substantial, and obviously being added to use for *some* broadcast transmission purpose.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> I don't have even a guess.
> 
> Then again, I'm not the making (nor do I feel compelled to justify) the claims.


I suppose, but... like all of us, you are making speculations. Alas, you're making a speculation (or a questioning) that flies in the face of known data: there will be more NATIONAL HD channels with the launch of D12.

So my speculations would tend to be along the lines of "we know this, this, and this. What would it take for those all to be true?" 

DIRECTV has announced more NATIONALS. Officially 50. This document mentions 80. (Woohoo!)
D12 is really slated for 103°.
D10 has some spotbeam problems, but does work.
D12 sounds like a (partial?) replacement for D10's spotbeams.
D12 can backup D11 if needed. (Note DIRECTV's change in wording.)
SW1/SW2 can hop transponder frequencies moreso than they are today.
There will be new uplink stations for D12.

Can D10 do more spot beam transponder hopping?

So get ready to buckle your safety harness and latch the helmet on. We're going for a ride. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## evan_s

harsh said:


> I think this may all be part of a side campaign to prove that D12 is still capable of functioning as a spare to the other satellites.
> 
> I remain unconvinced about how it is going to add substantial CONUS capacity absent link budget information.


DirecTV has said in major filings that D12 will provide additional capacity. They must have some plan on how that will occur or they wouldn't be making these statements in these filings.

Personally my guess is still what I posted most recently. Note that my guess on orbital slot now seems to be accurate.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2141276&postcount=860

Another possibility is operating D12's conus beams in Ka Hi or a mix of Ka hi and Ka lo. The Spaceway sats have a large amount of flexibility in their design and are only hosting spot beams, and it looks like some back hauling. They could either reconfigure the spaceway sat that is there to make some space or move it to 99 to have both spaceway sats at the same spot.

With 2 full blocks at 103 and only d10 and the spaceway sat there is definitely plenty of available bandwidth it's just a mater of how they are going rearrange things to make it all fit together. This really isn't unusual at all. If you look at 101 DirecTV has 3 sats there providing it's conus and spot beams capacity. Dish also has multiple sats at several of it's different orbital spots.


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> Alas, you're making a speculation (or a questioning) that flies in the face of known data: there will be more NATIONAL HD channels with the launch of D12.


Don't confuse announced plans with known data.


> So my speculations would tend to be along the lines of "we know this, this, and this. What would it take for those all to be true?"


I differ with your assessment in that there are many of these things that we don't "know".

If you believe everything that is planned will happen on the schedule and in the way that they are planned, you can claim confidence, but not knowledge.


----------



## houskamp

harsh said:


> Don't confuse announced plans with known data.I differ with your assessment in that there are many of these things that we don't "know".
> 
> If you believe everything that is planned will happen on the schedule and in the way that they are planned, you can claim confidence, but not knowledge.


 but I'll bet more than the "nothing at all" your claiming will happen...
Don't think they'll spend the cash to put it up there just for the heck of it..


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> Don't confuse announced plans with known data.I differ with your assessment in that there are many of these things that we don't "know".
> 
> If you believe everything that is planned will happen on the schedule and in the way that they are planned, you can claim confidence, but not knowledge.


Announced plans are data and, being announced, known. 

And yes, I fully am aware of things that can adjust the schedule, or blow it to bits.

But I'm not talking about that and neither are you, except as a strawman argument. (And you likely know that...) 

We're talking about the known plans and how DIRECTV plans to accomplish it using D12. Obviously we can spend endless hours "really" speculating about "whatif failure" scenarios--but why should we? 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Don't confuse announced plans with known data. I differ with your assessment in that there are many of these things that we don't "know".
> 
> If you believe everything that is planned will happen on the schedule and in the way that they are planned, you can claim confidence, but not knowledge.


Please add something productive or lets move on.

D12 will be launched. We will get more HD from somewhere. Very simple.

We're just filling the time providing the latest updates and speculating on the implementation.


----------



## inkahauts

So Sixto... Have you gone back through all the Spaceway filings, and seen if any of them have been altered.. Back a few years? I am curios if there is any mention of them moving SW1 to 99... I don;t think its necessary, but you never know....


----------



## Sixto

inkahauts said:


> So Sixto... Have you gone back through all the Spaceway filings, and seen if any of them have been altered.. Back a few years? I am curios if there is any mention of them moving SW1 to 99... I don;t think its necessary, but you never know....


Just checked them all. Nothing significant.


----------



## Mertzen

Sixto said:


> [*]Received agreement from Holland for DIRECTV 7S, allowing official notification at ITU (Feb. 09)


What's that all about?


----------



## LameLefty

Mertzen said:


> What's that all about?


I think it indicates that Directv 7S is going to be moved to service a Dutch market as it finishes out its lifetime, pending approval from the International Telecommunications Union (ITU). They have to approve the use of those frequencies in that region of the world, from an orbital slot that can reach Holland.


----------



## Mertzen

LameLefty said:


> I think it indicates that Directv 7S is going to be moved to service a Dutch market as it finishes out its lifetime, pending approval from the International Telecommunications Union (ITU). They have to approve the use of those frequencies in that region of the world, from an orbital slot that can reach Holland.


Would direcTV 5 be moved from 110 to 119 then ?


----------



## LameLefty

Mertzen said:


> Would direcTV 5 be moved from 110 to 119 then ?


I have no clue. I haven't seen any FCC filings directly related to either of them.


----------



## Crow159

Originally Posted by TheRatPatrol 
I'm hopping Santa will good to us this December with the launch of D12 in September. 

Response from SatRacer
September? I think Santa still plans on having the elves pack his sleigh in early to mid December so they can watch the launch before he has his own flying to do....in December.

Is he talking about the launch into space or the launch of channel broadcasts? Has the launch into space been delayed?


----------



## mcbeevee

Crow159 said:


> Has the launch into space been delayed?


You can always check post #1 in this thread to see the latest on the satellite launch date:

_D12 is expected to launch in "Late September" 2009_


----------



## Crow159

mcbeevee said:


> You can always check post #1 in this thread to see the latest on the satellite launch date:
> 
> _D12 is expected to launch in "Late September" 2009_


However, SatRacer, a known Directv employee, made the statement I quoted in the Q3 National HD channel thread. It sounds to me that his information is vastly different than the information we have in this thread. His statement sounds to me that D12 will launch, as in flight, in December.



> From SatRacer
> "I think Santa still plans on having the elves pack his sleigh in early to mid December so they can watch the launch before he has his own flying to do....in December."


It sounds like Santa will watch D12 "flight" before his own flight. I just want some clarification of these comments. Maybe I'm reading to much into this but SatRacers comments have always been taken as "truth" from others on this site.


----------



## LameLefty

Could be there's some shuffling of the launch schedules going on. There could be some good justification for it, actually.

First, the ILS schedule of Proton launches is pretty crowded through the September/October timeframe. Second, a September launch doesn't lead to operation in time for the fall network and sports seasons anyway. Third, a bump allows more time to finalize the configuration and checkout of the satellite if necessary. Fourth, a bump allows more time to handle FCC paperwork issues if any arise.

Well, we'll see.


----------



## Sixto

Crow159 said:


> Is he talking about the launch into space or the launch of channel broadcasts? Has the launch into space been delayed?


DirecTV has stated "2nd Half 2009" and Anik has posted "end of September/October - DirecTV 12 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur".

The recently found DirecTV presentation from March quoted "Launch estimated as Sept-Nov 2009".

Those have been our only sources of D12 launch info. Anything is possible and SatRacer is always a great source of info.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> I think it indicates that Directv 7S is going to be moved to service a Dutch market as it finishes out its lifetime, pending approval from the International Telecommunications Union (ITU).


One does have to wonder what good a spotbeam satellite would be in such a small country as The Netherlands. The Netherlands is approximately half the area of the state of Maine with a population that is a little smaller than that of Florida.


----------



## Mertzen

harsh said:


> One does have to wonder what good a spotbeam satellite would be in such a small country as The Netherlands. The Netherlands is approximately half the area of the state of Maine with a population that is a little smaller than that of Florida.


Indeed, not sure why D* would even get rid of their spot capacity at 119W. I could see D*5 go over there.

Anyway maybe for a spot deliver of that stuff that is legal over there :lol::lol:


----------



## LameLefty

Another possible use for D7S, I suppose, is Caribbean service - Holland (the Netherlands) has several island possessions and spotbeams might make some sense. It also wouldn't require nearly as far an orbital drift for Caribbean service. Who knows? I'm sure if anyone sees anything about it on the FCC site we'll post it.


----------



## HarleyD

harsh said:


> One does have to wonder what good a spotbeam satellite would be in such a small country as The Netherlands. The Netherlands is approximately half the area of the state of Maine with a population that is a little smaller than that of Florida.


Half the area of Maine?

Then a spotbeam could provide coverage to the entire country since it is only marginally larger than a single DMA in the US.


----------



## bobnielsen

HarleyD said:


> Half the area of Maine?
> 
> Then a spotbeam could provide coverage to the entire country since it is only marginally larger than a single DMA in the US.


Some DMAs are much larger than that, but may not be completely covered by a spotbeam.


----------



## oldfantom

LameLefty said:


> First, the ILS schedule of Proton launches is pretty crowded through the September/October timeframe. Second, a September launch doesn't lead to operation in time for the fall network and sports seasons anyway. Third, a bump allows more time to finalize the configuration and checkout of the satellite if necessary. Fourth, a bump allows more time to handle FCC paperwork issues if any arise.


Assuming you can't just call fedex to come pick up a satellite you leave by the front door, how much time does it take to pack, ship, unpack, test post shipping, and mount to the vehicle. I would think that you are talking about weeks of lead time. A late stage delay - and I don't know anything about the schedule other than post #1 - would seem to not be conducive to more testing, but rather to have a bird sitting around not collecting dust in a remote clean room / crate. Unless you are talking more on theoretical testing in simulation.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Another possible use for D7S, I suppose, is Caribbean service - Holland (the Netherlands) has several island possessions and spotbeams might make some sense. It also wouldn't require nearly as far an orbital drift for Caribbean service. Who knows? I'm sure if anyone sees anything about it on the FCC site we'll post it.


Never thought of that, but yes.....they have several Islands in the Carribean (just was on one of them recently)....and that would require much less drastic adjustment on the sat location itself as well as spot beams.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Another possible use for D7S, I suppose, is Caribbean service - Holland (the Netherlands) has several island possessions and spotbeams might make some sense. It also wouldn't require nearly as far an orbital drift for Caribbean service. Who knows? I'm sure if anyone sees anything about it on the FCC site we'll post it.


True;

But I would have thought that the spotbeams would need to be electronically steerable to allow for a geographical reconfiguration of the beams to the various islands in such a situation. Yet I don't recall DirecTV 7S as having this capability, but its spots are fixed to provide coverage to specific geographical areas in the CONUS.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> True;
> 
> But I would have thought that the spotbeams would need to be electronically steerable to allow for a geographical reconfiguration of the beams to the various islands in such a situation. Yet I don't recall DirecTV 7S as having this capability, but its spots are fixed to provide coverage to specific geographical areas in the CONUS.


Yep, I think you're right. There might be some small degree of adjustment capability, but I doubt it's that much. Of course, the entire spacecraft could be reoriented in 3 dimensions to change the coverage areas to some degree, but there are limits to that based on operational concerns.

Hey, it was just a thought.


----------



## LameLefty

oldfantom said:


> Assuming you can't just call fedex to come pick up a satellite you leave by the front door, how much time does it take to pack, ship, unpack, test post shipping, and mount to the vehicle. I would think that you are talking about weeks of lead time. A late stage delay - and I don't know anything about the schedule other than post #1 - would seem to not be conducive to more testing, but rather to have a bird sitting around not collecting dust in a remote clean room / crate. Unless you are talking more on theoretical testing in simulation.


There's usually 3 - 4 weeks' lead time from delivery of the encapsulated satellite to the launch facility for integration with the booster.

IF there is truly a delay in the launch itself (and not just a hint about when D12 will go live), I think it's more likely to be due to ILS's schedule than anything. Though again, we have seen nothing from the FCC regarding D12, so anything is conceivable.


----------



## harsh

bobnielsen said:


> Some DMAs are much larger than that, but may not be completely covered by a spotbeam.


For a land mass so far North, there would be a pretty broad spotbeam indeed.

LameLefty makes a good argument for possessions, but I'm not sure how well a satellite designed for North America would translate if the solar arrays were tipped away from their design optimum.

As far as we know the older satellites (especially those with spotbeams) are pretty well pinned to their slots. Even if you could get it to send where you wanted, you might have to lease some property to uplink to it. My recollection is that the uplinks are even tighter than the spotbeams themselves in terms of the angles at which they will receive signal.

I wonder if they are going to leave it where it is and become a third contender in the battle to offer DBS service in the US. It seems like the unknown player that was getting in the middle of things with the FCC was headquartered in The Netherlands.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> I wonder if they are going to leave it where it is and become a third contender in the battle to offer DBS service in the US. It seems like the unknown player that was getting in the middle of things with the FCC was headquartered in The Netherlands.


That company is called "New Skies" I think. There have been FCC filings related to it.

EDITED TO ADD: Well, that may not be it. They're "serving the U.S. market" from 177W. That seems awful hard to do.  There is reference to another company, "New DBSD" or something, but there were also filings referring to the "debtor-in-possession" so it looks like an outfit that went bust.

Anyway, this is getting further afield. We probably ought to ask Tom or someone to split this D7S discussion off into a "Future of the Directv Satellite Constellation" thread or something.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Crow159 said:


> Originally Posted by TheRatPatrol
> I'm hopping Santa will good to us this December with the launch of D12 in September.
> 
> Response from SatRacer
> September? I think Santa still plans on having the elves pack his sleigh in early to mid December so they can watch the launch before he has his own flying to do....in December.
> 
> Is he talking about the launch into space or the launch of channel broadcasts? Has the launch into space been delayed?


space launch in September/OCT? Testing in OCT/NOV with fully going live in NOV/DEC?


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> That company is called "New Skies" I think. There have been FCC filings related to it.


New Skies became a holding of SES in late 2005, and I think that's the outfit that was mentioned. SES seems to be in bed with just about everybody but DIRECTV and Echostar.


----------



## harsh

anik reports that AsiaSat 5 has gone from "beginning of August" to "first half of August".

AsiaSat 5 is the next scheduled Proton-M/Briz-M launch to be followed by Nimiq 5 and then DIRECTV 12.


----------



## Sixto

Yep. Latest Anik:


Code:


first half of August     – AsiaSat 5   – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
September                – Nimiq 5     – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
end of September/October – DirecTV 12  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
fourth quarter           – Arabsat-5A  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
fourth quarter           – Intelsat 16 – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur (or 1Q of 2010)


----------



## BillyT2008

I don't know if it amounts to much, but Lyngsat reports the launch of D12 as follows:

0909 late - DirecTV 12 - Proton - 101.0°W 87 Ka tps - C Hoffman 090127 

So, I have faith and I'm still betting on late in September for the launch.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lots of newer encouraging signs for a late September/early October D12 launch....


----------



## smiddy

This is getting exciting, the launch of DirecTV 12 and football season coming up.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yep. Latest Anik:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> first half of August     – AsiaSat 5   – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
> September                – Nimiq 5     – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
> end of September/October – DirecTV 12  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
> fourth quarter           – Arabsat-5A  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
> fourth quarter           – Intelsat 16 – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur (or 1Q of 2010)


August 10 for AsiaSat 5 now, apparently. That still allows for three launches within an 8/9 week window, well within ILS's capabilities, assuming FCC regulatory approval, completion of the satellite on time and availability of boosters from Kruchinev.

We'll have to just wait and see.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> August 10 for AsiaSat 5 now, apparently. That still allows for three launches within an 8/9 week window, well within ILS's capabilities, assuming FCC regulatory approval, completion of the satellite on time and availability of boosters from Kruchinev.
> 
> We'll have to just wait and see.


Yep. It changes by the minute!

Literally must have changed minutes after I looked the last time 

Latest:


Code:


August 10                – AsiaSat 5   – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
September                – Nimiq 5     – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
end of September/October – DirecTV 12  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
fourth quarter           – Arabsat-5A  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
fourth quarter           – Intelsat 16 – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur (or 1Q of 2010)


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> That still allows for three launches within an 8/9 week window, well within ILS's capabilities, assuming FCC regulatory approval, completion of the satellite on time and availability of boosters from Kruchinev.


If you look at the four most recent Proton-M/Briz-M launches, the intervals between launches have averaged just over 50 days. The last three launches have an average interval of just over 46 days.

63 days February 11 - Ekspress-AM44, Ekspress-MD1 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 00:02:59.971 UTC
51 days April 3 - Eutelsat W2A - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 16:24:00.079 UTC
43 days May 16 - ProtoStar 2 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 00:57:38.007 UTC
45 days June 30 - Sirius FM-5 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 19:09:59.973 UTC

In view of recent performance, I suspect your suggested 20 day interval is grossly optimistic.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> If you look at the four most recent Proton-M/Briz-M launches, the intervals between launches have averaged just over 50 days. The last three launches have an average interval of just over 46 days.
> 
> 63 days February 11 - Ekspress-AM44, Ekspress-MD1 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 00:02:59.971 UTC
> 51 days April 3 - Eutelsat W2A - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 16:24:00.079 UTC
> 43 days May 16 - ProtoStar 2 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 00:57:38.007 UTC
> 45 days June 30 - Sirius FM-5 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 19:09:59.973 UTC
> 
> In view of recent performance, I suspect your suggested 20 day interval is grossly optimistic.


Optimistic? Perhaps. Grossly so? Not really. The Russians have the launch operations down to a science.

That's why I said "assuming FCC regulatory approval, completion of the satellite on time and availability of boosters from Kruchinev." The launch operation itself isn't the issue.

In the absence of evidence regarding the "long pole" in past launch campaigns, I suspect your negative appraisal is unduly harsh.


----------



## harsh

Ignoring what is happening in favor of what was once theoretically possible is to give oneself a different kind of "long pole".


----------



## HarleyD

harsh said:


> If you look at the four most recent Proton-M/Briz-M launches, the intervals between launches have averaged just over 50 days. The last three launches have an average interval of just over 46 days.
> 
> 63 days February 11 - Ekspress-AM44, Ekspress-MD1 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 00:02:59.971 UTC
> 51 days April 3 - Eutelsat W2A - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 16:24:00.079 UTC
> 43 days May 16 - ProtoStar 2 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 00:57:38.007 UTC
> 45 days June 30 - Sirius FM-5 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur - 19:09:59.973 UTC
> 
> In view of recent performance, I suspect your suggested 20 day interval is grossly optimistic.


Actually, thats roughly a projected 30 day interval (1st launch on day 1, 2nd on/about day 30 and third on/about day 60).

Point taken however. Recent precedent would indicate that it will take longer than 8/9 weeks te get all 3 in the air.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Ignoring what is happening in favor of what was once theoretically possible is to give oneself a different kind of "long pole".


"What was once theoretically possible"? Where do you make that stuff up? 

Now that Khrunichev has taken a majority interest in both ILS and overall production of the booster, from an engineering standpoint they probably have production capability to produce and launching at least a couple dozen vehicles a year, pending availability of the payloads, engines and government range clearance.

But again, since no one knows what the schedule drivers are for any payloads on the ILS manifest, being negative "just because" seems rather pointless.

So here's a suggestion: stop trying to pick nits and actually get an engineering degree so we can have a positive, fruitful discussion.


----------



## LameLefty

Now, back on topic (slightly at least), the FCC today granted a 15 year approval, effective July 9 of this year, for a New Hampshire-based command, control and telemetry station for Directv 10 and 11 (which means it's likely to service Directv 12 as well).


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> So here's a suggestion: stop trying to pick nits and actually get an engineering degree so we can have a positive, fruitful discussion.


I don't appreciate the mean spirited comment.


----------



## houskamp

harsh said:


> I don't appreciate the mean spirited comment.


 pot meet kettle


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

:backtotop


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So what we seem to know is a new telemetry site was approved (a good thing)...

...and also D12 seems to be on target as announced for late September or early October - also a good thing.

Seems all to be good news, and confirms what many here thought.

This is a good thread to kieep informed. Thanks to Sixto and LameLefty, I can actually understand most of it...:lol:


----------



## P Smith

I think I saw today [lunch time] how a b-747 with d-12 took off Moffett Field. 
If a crew will post picture in their blog as before I could compare pictures.


----------



## bobnielsen

Wouldn't it leave from LAX (across the street from both Directv and Boeing)?


----------



## inkahauts

bobnielsen said:


> Wouldn't it leave from LAX (across the street from both Directv and Boeing)?


nope.. The last one took off from moffett


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Does this all mean D12 might be earning flyer miles this very second? If so, godspeed..!


----------



## harsh

inkahauts said:


> nope.. The last one took off from moffett


As in the Bay Area's Moffett Federal Airfield that's 360 miles away from El Segundo?


----------



## harsh

According to the DIRECTV 10 launch blog at ILS, that satellite arrived from L.A. aboard an Antonov-124.

About the trip:


DIRECTV 10 Launch Blog said:


> Well, today the DIRECTV 10 spacecraft (SC) arrived safely from Los Angeles. The Antonov-124 aircraft took a circuitous path after its departure from Los Angeles airport on 4 June, traveling first to Winnipeg, Canada, to Iceland, then Ulyanovsk, Russia and finally to Yubelieny airport at the Baikonur Cosmodrome. We had planned on a 10 a.m. arrival time, and we are sorry to report that the plane was 15 seconds late (probably due to some headwinds in the last mile to the airport). Better luck next time guys!


----------



## bobnielsen

harsh said:


> According to the DIRECTV 10 launch blog at ILS, that satellite arrived from L.A. aboard an Antonov-124.


That sounds more like it. Perhaps Loral or Lockheed Martin ships satellites from Moffett, but LAX is on the north side of Imperial Blvd, directly across from both Directv and Boeing and flying or trucking the bird to Moffett doesn't make a lot of sense, unless there were some special tests to be run, requiring equipment located at the NASA facility there.


----------



## inkahauts

harsh said:


> As in the Bay Area's Moffett Federal Airfield that's 360 miles away from El Segundo?


Yes. Sometimes Boeing ships their sats made here (I'm in LA) from Moffett. I agree, its odd, but i have seen others here post such, and I looked it up..


----------



## chestertime

Could anyone suggest a book or website for learning more about how communications are launched, serviced, etc? I just recently got directv and it sparked an interest in understanding more about how all this stuff works. This launch thread has been particularly fascinating.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

chestertime said:


> Could anyone suggest a book or website for learning more about how communications are launched, serviced, etc? I just recently got directv and it sparked an interest in understanding more about how all this stuff works. This launch thread has been particularly fascinating.


There is more information here in this thread and others at DBSTalk than just about any other single source. The first post in this thread is regularly updated as confirmed information is received...and also has links to additional reference content.

If you search here, for example, for "D12", you'll find numerous posts and corresponding information on the upcoming launch of the next DirecTV high-powered satellite in 4Q 2009.

DirecTV most recent launches are typically from one of two sites - one is Sea Launch, the other is in Baikonaur (D12 is scheduled for that location).


----------



## Sixto

chestertime said:


> Could anyone suggest a book or website for learning more about how communications are launched, serviced, etc? I just recently got directv and it sparked an interest in understanding more about how all this stuff works. This launch thread has been particularly fascinating.


And here's some of the older stuff ...

D10: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91383

D11: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123236

Tom's DIRECTV and Ka (with satellite configs): http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


----------



## Ernie

Maybe D-12 wanted to say farewell to the Blue Cube.

Ernie


----------



## P Smith

Ernie said:


> Maybe D-12 wanted to say farewell to the Blue Cube.
> 
> Ernie


Ah, the 'box' was shutdown by Clinton a while ago.


----------



## Ernie

P Smith said:


> Ah, the 'box' was shutdown by Clinton a while ago.


The closing process was started by Rumsfeld in 2005. The last tenant is supposed to be out in 2011.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onizuka_Air_Force_Station)


----------



## P Smith

Ernie said:


> The closing process was started by Rumsfeld in 2005. The last tenant is supposed to be out in 2011.
> 
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onizuka_Air_Force_Station)


If you are reading SJMN last ten years, you should known more then Wiki publishers.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So anyway.....what's new on the D12 front these days?

:backtotop


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So anyway.....what's new on the D12 front these days?
> 
> :backtotop


"No records found"


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> "No records found"


Thanks Sixto.

I'm guess that we should see some newly-filed planning documents some time within the next 30-45 days that outline the final launch plans.

You and LameLefty are doing a great job here keeping us informed.


----------



## hobie346

P Smith said:


> If you are reading SJMN last ten years, you should known more then Wiki publishers.


Where do you think the SJMN has been getting most of their stories from. :lol:

It's now just a shell of it's former shelf.


----------



## P Smith

hobie346 said:


> Where do you think the SJMN has been getting most of their stories from. :lol:
> ...


Actually opposite way; those guys from SJMN digging ground and Wiki posters just moving words from their pages.
:backtotop


----------



## LameLefty

Somewhat back on topic, I'm going to be working on an "Orbital Mechanics for Dummies" type post or series of posts in the next few weeks that will hopefully help people make sense of the post-launch gyrations and squiggles that D12 will appear to make on the various tracking websites and so forth. I will try to explain (with no math! ) how and why satellites can be launched from one high-latitude place and end up "stationary" at 22,300 miles high above a spot halfway around the world.

In the meantime, however, it might behoove folks (and help pass the time), to take a little jump back some 24 months to the launch of Directv 10. 

D10 Satellite TECH THREAD


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Somewhat back on topic, I'm going to be working on an "Orbital Mechanics for Dummies" type post or series of posts in the next few weeks that will hopefully help people make sense of the post-launch gyrations and squiggles that D12 will appear to make on the various tracking websites and so forth. I will try to explain (with no math! ) how and why satellites can be launched from one high-latitude place and end up "stationary" at 22,300 miles high above a spot halfway around the world.
> 
> In the meantime, however, it might behoove folks (and help pass the time), to take a little jump back some 24 moths to the launch of Directv 10.
> 
> D10 Satellite TECH THREAD


Great!!!!!!!


----------



## dhhaines

LameLefty said:


> Somewhat back on topic, I'm going to be working on an "_Orbital Mechanics for Dummies_" type post or series of posts in the next few weeks that will hopefully help people make sense of the post-launch gyrations and squiggles that D12 will appear to make on the various tracking websites and so forth. I will try to explain (with no math! ) how and why satellites can be launched from one high-latitude place and end up "stationary" at 22,300 miles high above a spot halfway around the world.
> 
> In the meantime, however, it might behoove folks (and help pass the time), to take a little jump back some 24 months to the launch of Directv 10.
> 
> D10 Satellite TECH THREAD


 What are you saying? That if you're not a rocket scientist you're a dummy? 

Seriously though,I'm looking forward to the posts, since I am a dummy when it comes to orbital mechanics.


----------



## davring

Thank you Mr Lefty for the schooling, I surely need it. My only knowledge of the science behind trajectory is my training on an eight inch Howitzer


----------



## bobnielsen

davring said:


> Thank you Mr Lefty for the schooling, I surely need it. My only knowledge of the science behind trajectory is my training on an eight inch Howitzer


Hey, the law of gravity still applies!

I'm looking forward to some interesting reading. It's been 43 years since I worked on any satellites, but the physics hasn't changed.


----------



## woj027

I'm looking forward to the "gyrations and squiggles"


----------



## bertjo44

LameLefty said:


> Somewhat back on topic, I'm going to be working on an "Orbital Mechanics for Dummies" type post or series of posts in the next few weeks that will hopefully help people make sense of the post-launch gyrations and squiggles that D12 will appear to make on the various tracking websites and so forth. I will try to explain (with no math! ) how and why satellites can be launched from one high-latitude place and end up "stationary" at 22,300 miles high above a spot halfway around the world.
> 
> In the meantime, however, it might behoove folks (and help pass the time), to take a little jump back some 24 months to the launch of Directv 10.
> 
> D10 Satellite TECH THREAD


You mean there are mechanics up there floating around in orbit?:eek2:


----------



## Sixto

Slight update to add time for next launch (from Anik):


Code:


August 10                – AsiaSat 5   – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur [COLOR="Red"]- 19:48:34 UTC[/COLOR]
September                – Nimiq 5     – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
end of September/October – [B]DirecTV 12[/B]  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
fourth quarter           – Arabsat-5A  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
fourth quarter           – Intelsat 16 – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur (or 1Q of 2010)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Looks like things are creeping closer to seeing D12 with a date/time.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Looks like things are creeping closer to seeing D12 with a date/time.


I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict 10/5 as a launch date, based on a few other scheduled launches from Baikonur. We'll see how close I end up. :grin:


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So anyway.....what's new on the D12 front these days?


Looking back, there's really been nothing new regarding the projected launch date since the russianspaceweb.com schedule debuted DIRECTV 12 back on January 26th. Some stretching has been predicted based on how the launches are stacking up.

We'll typically hear from Boeing when the bird has shipped and it will be about a month later that we can expect a launch.


----------



## Sixto

Last 10 launches, ignoring mid-2008 issue, average is about 41 days, even ignoring high/low is about 41 days. 2009 is a little higher (45).

If predict 41, then D12 is 10/31/2009. If predict 45, the D12 is 11/08/2009. Could always be earlier, earliest was 14, then 32. Or later. if an issue. There we go, all bases covered! 

2008/2009 Previous launches:


Code:


01/28/2008
02/11/2008 +14
03/14/2008 +32
08/18/2008 
09/19/2008 +32
11/05/2008 +47
12/10/2008 +35
02/11/2009 +62
04/03/2009 +51
05/16/2009 +43
06/30/2009 +45
08/10/2009 +41 (AsiaSat 5 scheduled)
09/20/2009 +41 (Nimiq 5 estimate if +41's)
09/24/2009 +45 (Nimiq 5 estimate if +45's)
10/31/2009 +41 (D12 estimate if 41's)
11/08/2009 +45 (D12 estimate if 45's)


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict 10/5 as a launch date, based on a few other scheduled launches from Baikonur. We'll see how close I end up. :grin:


I'm going to go with November 6th at this stage of the game.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

As long as we have new HD channels by the holidays I'll be happy. If one of the new HD channels is Travel, I'll be beyond happy. I'll be a happy DIRECTV customer.

Good luck D12


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hutchinshouse said:


> As long as we have new HD channels by the holidays I'll be happy. If one of the new HD channels is Travel, I'll be beyond happy. I'll be a happy DIRECTV customer.
> 
> Good luck D12


I suspect there might just be a *few* others here with that same notion.


----------



## IndyMichael

They really need to add ESPU HD before the football season starts, or it will be unwatchable. Don't know why it's so bad, when other SD channels look ok.


----------



## harsh

Hutchinshouse said:


> As long as we have new HD channels by the holidays I'll be happy.


If "by the holidays" you mean Groundhog Day and Valentine's Day, you may be pleased. Otherwise, I think you're probably kidding yourself.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> If "by the holidays" you mean Groundhog Day and Valentine's Day, you may be pleased. Otherwise, I think you're probably kidding yourself.


Ah, your usual rays of sunshine illuminate an otherwise dreary day on DBSTalk . . . :lol:


----------



## houskamp

sept/oct heck even nov they could still be online by the holidays..


----------



## oldfantom

LameLefty said:


> Ah, your usual rays of sunshine illuminate an otherwise dreary day on DBSTalk . . . :lol:


But I have to say he is probably the closest without going over.

I would guess January for new channels if the launch date is 11/6 following the 41 day launch avg. If it is launched in Oct, maybe there will be another holiday in December.

But then again, we have to guess about launch, then guess about the orbital maneuvers required to get to the generally accepted position. We also have to guess if there will be any additional testing like there was with 11 since we have no FCC filing. We all speculate on what contracts are in place as far as HD providers. We also have some guessing based upon past experience how long it will take to move from testing to channel launch once the bird is parked.

So, unless I am wrong, all we know in this thread so far is that some of you know a lot more about the generalities of the process than many of us, including me. But we know nothing past the fact that it is scheduled to fly sometime SOON. Boy now that is cheery.

Signed 
Harsh Jr.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

harsh said:


> If "by the holidays" you mean Groundhog Day and Valentine's Day, you may be pleased. Otherwise, I think you're probably kidding yourself.


It doesn't seem _that _unreasonable that we might see something before the end of the year.

There's no way to say for sure but you never know. :grin:

Mike


----------



## woj027

Yea! how bout this? 
D12 is launched without any issues in October/November. 
DirecTV uses the 8 spare slots between D10 and D11 before D12 is completely operational to give us a Merry Christmas!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

woj027 said:


> Yea! how bout this?
> D12 is launched without any issues in October/November.
> DirecTV uses the 8 spare slots between D10 and D11 before D12 is completely operational to give us a Merry Christmas!!


Works here....

(...and is probably closest to reality...)


----------



## kevinwmsn

I was hoping for sooner like the rest of us? I was wondering is Echostar planning another satellite launch to match D* in number of HD channels?


----------



## P Smith

Yes, E14 is on the way to up there.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

woj027 said:


> Yea! how bout this?
> D12 is launched without any issues in October/November.
> DirecTV uses the 8 spare slots between D10 and D11 before D12 is completely operational to give us a Merry Christmas!!


They might wait until NFLST is over to get those channels.


----------



## inkahauts

P Smith said:


> Yes, E14 is on the way to up there.


Do we know its purpose? They have a very different plan of attack than Directv.. They are splitting the country in 2 for most of their programing, which means they will need more bandwidth (available on sats) total to cover the same total amount of area...


----------



## P Smith

Check other site for latest news of E14.


----------



## houskamp

P Smith said:


> Check other site for latest news of E14.


 Last time I gave up after 20 minutes of loading ads.. I'll wait for someone nice to post it..


----------



## LameLefty

While we wait for D12 paperwork to mill through the system, some interesting action from the FCC regarding Directv's long-pending application for BSS-band satellites (well, RB-2, in particular, at 102.825 W). It's a long document and has lots of interesting technical background.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-1624A1.pdf


----------



## RAD

Interesting read, nice to see that D*'s trying to keep things in their 'core' arc. I see this authorization is calling the satellite RB-2, did a RB-1 already get approved or is that also in a review process at the FCC?


----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> Interesting read, nice to see that D*'s trying to keep things in their 'core' arc. I see this authorization is calling the satellite RB-2, did a RB-1 already get approved or is that also in a review process at the FCC?


Directv has applications pending for several "RB" BSS-band sats at varying orbital slots. Interestingly, they have entered into a "Three Party Agreement" with Pegasus and Intelsat to, in effect, swap applications around between them, one of which was to give Pegasus Directv's "spot in line" for 107W in exchange. Pegasus would then withdraw its application for 91W in favor of Intelsat, which would then withdraw its application for a share of the 99W slot.

The FCC has now denied Directv's request to, in effect, let Pegasus take their place in line. Don't know how this is gonna shake out, but since the timeline to launch from the grant of authority is 5 years, it won't happen very soon.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-1625A1.pdf


----------



## tkrandall

If this means RB-1 and RB-2 are to go at 99 and 103, that is great news.


----------



## evan_s

tkrandall said:


> If this means RB-1 and RB-2 are to go at 99 and 103, that is great news.


DirecTV filed for

rb1 to rb5 at 99,103, 107, 111 and 115 respectively. I believe DirecTV already withdrew RB5 at 115.

Per the info in the last doc intelsat also filed for a sat at 99.

DIRECTV, EchoStar and Pegasus all filed for 107.

EchoStar and DIRECTV and both filed for 111.

The rules established state that all these filings are to be considered simultaneous and when multiple applicants exist the allocations are to be split between them. So as it stands now DirecTV gets the entire allocation at 103, half at 99 and 111 and a third at 107. Basically DirecTV tried to trade their third at 107 in exchange for the other half of 99 but it got rejected by the FCC.
Some sort of multiparty trade may still happen because at this point they were actually dealing with their spots in line for the allocations and not the actual allocations. The FCC shot it down because they have a rule in place to prevent speculative applications for spots that the companies don't actually intend to use for the purpose of selling the allocation. The FCC does also state that "the Commission has urged applicants to resolve mutual exclusivity in whole or in part.27" which basically seems to mean the FCC does want them to try an work out situations where there are shared slots on their own.

I would think that theoretically they could still manage to get something to happen by convincing Echostar to join in the fun and by them all just withdrawing the right applications. DirecTV with draws their 107 and 111, Echostar withdraws their 107, intelsat with draws their 99 and pegasus withdraws their 91 application. Net result is intelsat gets all of 91, DirecTV gets all of 99, Pegasus gets all of 107 and Echostar gets all of 111. DirecTV ends up withdrawing 2 different applications for 1/3 of one slot and 1/2 of another slot and only gets back 1/2 of a slot. Pegasus and Echostar seems to be the winners since pegasus withdraws an application for half a slot but ends up getting 2/3s and Echostar withdraws a 1/3 but gets half a slot. It may still be worth it for DirecTV since it gives them the full allocation at 99 in their core constellation and I don't think the FCC could prevent all the involved parties from withdrawing their applications.

Another interesting tidbit from the doc is all the following applications were granted.

the Pegasus application at the 115° W.L. orbital location granted on Dec. 15, 2008
the EchoStar application at the 62.15° WL orbital location granted on March 13, 2009
the EchoStar application at the 75° WL orbital location granted on March 18, 2009
the Intelsat application at the 95.15° W.L. orbital location onMay 26, 2009
and the Intelsat application at the 122.9° W.L. orbital location on June 15, 2009.

Both of those allocations should end up helping out Dishes eastern Arc bandwidth.


----------



## LameLefty

tkrandall said:


> If this means RB-1 and RB-2 are to go at 99 and 103, that is great news.


RB-1 is apparently supposed to go to 99, RB-2 to 103, RB-3 to 107 and RB-4 to 101. The 107 slot is the one Directv tried to give to Pegasus in exchange for (eventually) getting the 99 BSS allocation all to itself, but the FCC says no dice.

There is/was also an application some months back for RB-5 at 97, which is the slot that Echostar is deemed to have surrendered for failure to meet the milestones when they were awarded the authorization. However, the FCC said no to this as well since they had not formally announced that they were accepting applications for the slot, only that Echostar had missed the boat.

EDITED TO ADD: Evan is probably right about RB-5 - I was going from memory there. The rest of them I got from the list of current authorizations and applications.


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> RB-1 is apparently supposed to go to 99, RB-2 to 103, RB-3 to 107 and RB-4 to *101*.


I assume this is just a type as it should be 111 since there is a 4 degree separation on the BSS allocations and this is the application that they share with Dish at 111.

note the 97w application is bellow. The RB call signs were all for BSS sats.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2025827&postcount=619


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> I assume this is just a type as it should be 111 since there is a 4 degree separation on the BSS allocations and this is the application that they share with Dish at 111.


Could be. I snagged it off the FCC pending list.



> note the 97w application is bellow. The RB call signs were all for BSS sats.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2025827&postcount=619


Yeah, I just looked it up again. "Directv 97W" operating in the 18.3 - 20.2 GHz range.

EDITED TO ADD: S2243 is the callsign for what is now called RB-4. Originally (the application was made in 1997!) it was for 101W. Now it's been amended to 111W. So there you go.


----------



## Sixto

Thanks Lefty for posting today's rulings. Been out most of the day and just returned to a flashing pop-up that that pending list had changed. Good news with the 103 slot. Shame with the other slot with Echostar's challenge.

Good reading for tonight.


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> Could be. I snagged it off the FCC pending list.
> 
> Yeah, I just looked it up again. "Directv 97W" operating in the 18.3 - 20.2 GHz range.
> 
> EDITED TO ADD: S2243 is the callsign for what is now called RB-4. Originally (the application was made in 1997!) it was for 101W. Now it's been amended to 111W. So there you go.


Makes sense since the 101 allocation doesn't actually exist anymore. 1997 must have been when they were first thinking about this.


----------



## tkrandall

evan_s said:


> I would think that theoretically they could still manage to get something to happen by convincing Echostar to join in the fun and by them all just withdrawing the right applications. DirecTV with draws their 107 and 111, Echostar withdraws their 107, intelsat with draws their 99 and pegasus withdraws their 91 application. Net result is intelsat gets all of 91, DirecTV gets all of 99, Pegasus gets all of 107 and Echostar gets all of 111. DirecTV ends up withdrawing 2 different applications for 1/3 of one slot and 1/2 of another slot and only gets back 1/2 of a slot. Pegasus and Echostar seems to be the winners since pegasus withdraws an application for half a slot but ends up getting 2/3s and Echostar withdraws a 1/3 but gets half a slot. It may still be worth it for DirecTV since it gives them the full allocation at 99 in their core constellation and I don't think the FCC could prevent all the involved parties from withdrawing their applications.
> 
> Another interesting tidbit from the doc is all the following applications were granted.
> 
> the Pegasus application at the 115° W.L. orbital location granted on Dec. 15, 2008
> the EchoStar application at the 62.15° WL orbital location granted on March 13, 2009
> the EchoStar application at the 75° WL orbital location granted on March 18, 2009
> the Intelsat application at the 95.15° W.L. orbital location onMay 26, 2009
> and the Intelsat application at the 122.9° W.L. orbital location on June 15, 2009.
> 
> Both of those allocations should end up helping out Dishes eastern Arc bandwidth.


I was thinking the same thing. If Echostar would get on board and the withdrawals (no substitutions, just withdrawals) you suggest above all were to happen, everyone would win. "D" would get to consolidate from 4 slots to 2 at 99 and 103, losing only 1/3 of a slot (that they probably don't need) in so doing, "I" would consolidate 91/99 into 91, "P" would consolidate at 107 and pick up 1/6 share of bandwidth, "E" would consolidate at 111 and also pick up 1/6 share of bandwidth compared to current applications. Add in the other applications you note above and you'd have:

D: 99 and 103
E: 62, 75, 111
P: 107 and 115
I: 91, 95, and 123 *Correction: remove 95 and 123, I see Intelsat withdrew those two in the past month, after being granted them.... Has anyone filed for them?*

Definitely an efficient arrangement it would appear....if they'd all only play nice


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> I would think that theoretically they could still manage to get something to happen by convincing Echostar to join in the fun and by them all just withdrawing the right applications. DirecTV with draws their 107 and 111, Echostar withdraws their 107, intelsat with draws their 99 and pegasus withdraws their 91 application. Net result is intelsat gets all of 91, DirecTV gets all of 99, Pegasus gets all of 107 and Echostar gets all of 111. DirecTV ends up withdrawing 2 different applications for 1/3 of one slot and 1/2 of another slot and only gets back 1/2 of a slot. Pegasus and Echostar seems to be the winners since pegasus withdraws an application for half a slot but ends up getting 2/3s and Echostar withdraws a 1/3 but gets half a slot. It may still be worth it for DirecTV since it gives them the full allocation at 99 in their core constellation and I don't think the FCC could prevent all the involved parties from withdrawing their applications.


I've been re-reading this and thinking about it and I agree that it makes the most sense. However, I frankly doubt it will happen. Directv has made a bit investment (all things considered) in keeping a measly 3 Ku band transponders at 110 rather than leasing that space to Dish, even to the extent of designing and distributing the 5-LNB dish to millions of subs and stationing a satellite there, as underutilized as it is. It seems as if both companies enjoy being spoilers for one another. Imagine that. :lol:


----------



## tkrandall

Considering the "reduced power" (due to the effect of the .175 degree offset to 102.825) stipulation, 

1) why does D* not just use 103w?
2) how strong are the allowed BSS 17.3-17.7 power levels compared to Ka power levels anyway?


----------



## tkrandall

LameLefty said:


> . It seems as if both companies enjoy being spoilers for one another. Imagine that. :lol:


Not sure how that mindset benefits either customers or shareholders. It's small, short sighted and ultimately self-unserving, IMO.


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> I've been re-reading this and thinking about it and I agree that it makes the most sense. However, I frankly doubt it will happen. Directv has made a bit investment (all things considered) in keeping a measly 3 Ku band transponders at 110 rather than leasing that space to Dish, even to the extent of designing and distributing the 5-LNB dish to millions of subs and stationing a satellite there, as underutilized as it is. It seems as if both companies enjoy being spoilers for one another. Imagine that. :lol:


Keep in mind that when the SL5 was designed and the primarily used dish 110 was far from being underutilized. Obviously DirecTV never had a huge amount of bandwidth there but at the time they needed all the bandwidth they could get. My understanding is that at the time DirecTV tried to trade it's 3 tps at 110 for 3 at 119 but dish didn't want to because at the time 119 was more of a main location and 110 was a secondary location that not all customers had a dish/lnb for. Since DirecTV has already spent the money to put the Sat there and design the SL5lnb and dish it seems wise to try and use those resources especially since they have what seems like a fairly obvious good use for it (moving internationals off their rented sat) which requires the international dish. I would also note that DirecTV has canceled their planned replacement sat for 110 (D13 was suppose to go there).

The BSS sats are obviously at a very different stage of the process. I'm not sure my proposal would happen or is even likely but I don't think that it is just simply because DirecTV is that against doing anything that might possibly help Dish. DirecTV's migration away from 72.5 may eventually lead to Dish getting more space for it's eastern arc since it uses the other half of the transponders there but that hasn't stopped DirecTV from moving those markets to Mpeg 4 on 99/103 with an eventual goal of ending it's lease on those tps.


----------



## tkrandall

I am sure I am helping us to wander off topic, but a common view is Dish will pursue the other half of 72.5's transponders.


----------



## LameLefty

tkrandall said:


> Considering the "reduced power" (due to the effect of the .175 degree offset to 102.825) stipulation,
> 
> 1) why does D* not just use 103w?
> 2) how strong are the allowed BSS 17.3-17.7 power levels compared to Ka power levels anyway?


It's buried in the technicalities of the report, but it doesn't seem to be that much of a reduction. Someone with a better background in RF theory and engineering will have to address it, however.

The reason Directv isn't using exactly 103W is because that's just a nominal orbital slot. There are already two other satellites there (Directv 10 and Spaceway 1) and it's likely that Directv 12 is going there as well. While space is big and mostly empty, it's not infinite. Furthermore, the GSO arc is essentially a two-dimensional plane, subject to the slight imprecisions of command and control. So the satellites have to be spaced out to allow each vehicle enough space to be drifted into place and then out of it at the end of life; enough room to give a margin of error in control; and enough spacing that uplinks and downlinks don't interfere with other vehicles nearby.


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> It's buried in the technicalities of the report, but it doesn't seem to be that much of a reduction. Someone with a better background in RF theory and engineering will have to address it, however.


I recall that the azimuthal beamwidth of a Slimline at Ka band is approximately 2 degrees, so even if it were aimed at 103, the reduction in gain would be pretty minimal. However, according to Lyngsat, SW1 and Directv 10 are at 102.8, not 103, so the difference would be quite negligible.


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> I recall that the azimuthal beamwidth of a Slimline at Ka band is approximately 2 degrees, so even if it were aimed at 103, the reduction in gain would be pretty minimal. However, according to Lyngsat, SW1 and Directv 10 are at 102.8, not 103, so the difference would be quite negligible.


Yeah, none of them is stationed at exactly "103 degrees W" so far as I can recall. The circumference of a geostationary orbit is huge - on the order of nearly 165,000 miles. So even a tenth of a degree offset gives over 45 miles' worth of spacing. Of course, there's still the matter of drift and error in command and control, and concerns with RF interference between high-power satellites radiating relatively close to one another, etc.

These are all reasons why multiple satellites are never just "at" a single slot, but are instead offset by fractions of a degree one way or another.


----------



## LameLefty

And now RB-1 is authorized at 99.175W . . .

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727409


----------



## RAD

More good news!

From past history, does DirecTV usually end up waiting until the last possible moment to meet the milestone dates in these authorizations, or do they try to do them ASAP? Wondering if D*'s going to want to get RB-1 an 2 up there sooner then later?


----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> More good news!
> 
> From past history, does DirecTV usually end up waiting until the last possible moment to meet the milestone dates in these authorizations, or do they try to do them ASAP? Wondering if D*'s going to want to get RB-1 an 2 up there sooner then later?


There's a bunch of unanswered questions in these FCC actions: first, why now? These are some OLD applications. In some cases, they were made in the 90's but have been pending for a good while. Did Directv push the Commission to make a decision finally or has it just taken this long naturally? To my knowledge there is no one yet using this particular band for direct-to-home satellite TV in the U.S. but bear in mind it's part of the Ku band - it's not at all clear how much programming could be added, especially HD programming. Perhaps that's why there are still four "RB" applications out there (as opposed to the only 2 Ka band sats originally planned).

Also, and more to the point, where the hell is Directv 12? :lol: I still can't find any authorizations or anything whatsoever to do with it in the FCC public databases. It's clear from reading a lot of these documents that there is a LOT of ex parte (i.e., one party) communications between the Commission and satellite operators and broadcasters, often WELL before stuff goes public. So I'm certain Directv is coordinating everything behind the scenes with the bureaucrats and almost certainly has been doing so for a couple years now. I just don't know why they haven't even listed an FCC satellite callsign publicly yet. I expect it to start seeing documents soon, which is part of the reason why I'm so surprised that these RB-1 and -2 actions were taken suddenly after the applications have been percolating around the system for so long.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Also, and more to the point, where the hell is Directv 12? :lol: I still can't find any authorizations or anything whatsoever to do with it in the FCC public databases.


Yep, been interesting as to why. It must be "soon".  The March document said "Application nearly complete and will be filed soon".


----------



## tkrandall

LameLefty said:


> And now RB-1 is authorized at 99.175W . . .
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727409


Thx! 
Interesting, I see they will have conditionally have to split the spectrum at this point still.

Instead of clogging up this D12 thread with all this BSS talk, can we get a seperate thread going on the BSS applications/allocations?


----------



## Sixto

Also a state of the business filing today: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=7019933964


----------



## Sixto

tkrandall said:


> Instead of clogging up this D12 thread with all this BSS talk, can we get a seperate thread going on the BSS applications/allocations?


At least it helps us fill the time. Will be quite some time before BSS becomes reality.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> At least it helps us fill the time. Will be quite some time before BSS becomes reality.


That's true. The more background info that interested people know about satellite technology and the regulatory issues facing Directv and its competitors, the higher quality the discussion will be. 

And back to topic (sort of ), and potentially impacting Directv 12 to some small degree, the AsiaSat-5 launch by ILS has now been scheduled for August 11 (it previously was scheduled for the 10th).


----------



## Sixto

The FCC's been busy busy busy ... Lefty already posted RB-1 and RB-2 ... looks like they're all now approved:

RB-1 at 99° (99.175°) - S2711:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727403

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727395 (duplicate)

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727409 (duplicate)​
RB-2 at 103 (102.825°) - S2712:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727189

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727186 (duplicate)

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727195 (duplicate)​
RB-3 at 107° - S2242: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727477

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727475 (duplicate)

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727473 (duplicate)

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727202

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727479​
RB-4 at 111° (110.9°) - S2243: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727489

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727487 (duplicate)

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727485 (duplicate)

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=727491​
Now we just need some love for D12!

(but the FCC can't do much without a filing )


----------



## Sixto

Update to add date & time for next launch (from Anik). Lefty posted date change yesterday and Anik updated time today as well:


Code:


August [COLOR="Red"]11[/COLOR]                – AsiaSat 5   – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur - [COLOR="Red"]19:47[/COLOR] UTC
September                – Nimiq 5     – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
end of September/October – [B]DirecTV 12[/B]  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
fourth quarter           – Arabsat-5A  – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur
fourth quarter           – Intelsat 16 – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur (or 1Q of 2010)


----------



## LameLefty

While we're passing time and discussing the general state of the satellite industry:

Echostar 5 bites the dust for good this time . . .

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAppPDF?attachment_key=727426


----------



## Sixto

Just as a summary. All the BSS was granted this week. Here's the summary:


Code:


SAT-LOA-20050210-00031	Intelsat	S2662	91	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
SAT-LOA-20060412-00042	Pegasus  	S2698	91	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009

SAT-LOA-20060908-00099	DirecTV  	S2711	99	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
SAT-LOA-20050210-00029	Intelsat	S2660	99	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009

SAT-LOA-20060908-00100	DirecTV  	S2712	103	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009

SAT-LOA-19970605-00049	DirecTV  	S2242	107	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
SAT-LOA-20020328-00052	EchoStar	S2442	107	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
SAT-LOA-20060412-00043	Pegasus  	S2699	107	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009

SAT-LOA-20020328-00051	EchoStar	S2441	111	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
SAT-LOA-19970605-00050	DirecTV  	S2243	111	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Just as a summary. All the BSS was granted this week.


This really does create an interesting situation, as we discussed the other day. I do expect to see some degree of "horse trading" going on with the authorizations, at least between Directv, Pegasus and Intelsat, subject to convincing the FCC it's a good idea. Of course, these authorizations require satellites to be operational within five years. If worse comes to worse, Congress can pass legislation changing the way the FCC deals with potential slot trading.

More pointedly, Directv finds itself in an interesting position vis a vis these four new authorizations: they now have a ticking clock telling them, essentially, "Spend half a billion dollars within five years on BSS-band satellites, all the while your older Ku-band spot beam sats will be nearing end-of-life, and while your four (soon to be five) Ka-band sats are at or approaching mid-life."


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> This really does create an interesting situation, as we discussed the other day. I do expect to see some degree of "horse trading" going on with the authorizations, at least between Directv, Pegasus and Intelsat, subject to convincing the FCC it's a good idea. Of course, these authorizations require satellites to be operational within five years. If worse comes to worse, Congress can pass legislation changing the way the FCC deals with potential slot trading.
> 
> More pointedly, Directv finds itself in an interesting position vis a vis these four new authorizations: they now have a ticking clock telling them, essentially, "Spend half a billion dollars within five years on BSS-band satellites, all the while your older Ku-band spot beam sats will be nearing end-of-life, and while your four (soon to be five) Ka-band sats are at or approaching mid-life."


Yes, I was trying to find something in the authorizations where it clearly states any rules of how multiple parties share a slot. What's the procedure to allocate specific frequencies within the range, assuming they don't work out an FCC approved swap.

Relative to the satellite life, yep, there's much to be dealt with. Big $.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yes, I was trying to find something in the authorizations where it clearly states any rules of how multiple parties share a slot. What's the procedure to allocate specific frequencies within the range, assuming they don't work out an FCC approved swap.


The first two documents I posted links to the other day, regarding RB-2's authorization and denying Directv's attempt to allow Pegasus to substitute in on the request for the 107W slot, discuss the issue and I believe make reference to the rules. I sort of skimmed over it, but as I recall the rule is that companies for whom applications are submitted simultaneously (and for this new BSS band, all the apps were deemed to have been done so, I think), the applications which are eventually approved for a slot must allocate the bandwidth at that spot between one another.

I suspect there are detailed rules in the FCC section of the Code of Federal Regulations, but I have not researched it.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I sort of skimmed over it, but as I recall the rule is that companies for whom applications are submitted simultaneously (and for this new BSS band, all the apps were deemed to have been done so, I think), the applications which are eventually approved for a slot must allocate the bandwidth at that spot between one another.
> 
> I suspect there are detailed rules in the FCC section of the Code of Federal Regulations, but I have not researched it.


Yep, they did mention "we take the opportunity to remind all of the applicants how available spectrum will be divided at shared locations. Section 25.158(d)(4) states that the available spectrum at a shared location is to be divided equally among the licensees at the location". It just seems weird to read a release that says "granted", but then the next release says the exact same for another company for the same location, and then a third the same. With none referencing the others. I guess they're free to come up with their own sharing plan.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yep, they did mention "we take the opportunity to remind all of the applicants how available spectrum will be divided at shared locations. Section 25.158(d)(4) states that the
> available spectrum at a shared location is to be divided equally among the licensees at the location". It just seems weird to read a release that says "granted", but then the next release says the exact same for another company for the same location, and then a third the same. With none referencing the others. I guess they're free to come up with their own sharing plan.


I think "divided equally" IS the plan. :grin:

There is also verbiage in there to the effect that within so many days of launch, Directv (and I presume all the other licensees) must notify one another of their intent to launch and operate their satellite at the location in question, giving them time to get ready to share it or come up with a way to do so.


----------



## tkrandall

And what does the future hold for the 95 and 123 BSS slots now that Intelset withdrew their applications for those 2?

And doesn't Peg have an application for 115?


----------



## hobie346

LameLefty said:


> I think "divided equally" IS the plan. :grin:
> 
> There is also verbiage in there to the effect that within so many days of launch, Directv (and I presume all the other licensees) must notify one another of their intent to launch and operate their satellite at the location in question, giving them time to get ready to share it or come up with a way to do so.


How many "birds" can they fit in one orbital slot?


----------



## LameLefty

hobie346 said:


> How many "birds" can they fit in one orbital slot?


As many as the FCC will license. At that altitude, each full degree of spacing is roughly 457 miles. I suspect there are internal guidelines the FCC uses, based on consultation with space industry sources who know exactly how precisely each satellite can "station keep" and how much room they need to account for imprecision, and to give room for sliding into and out of specific slots. I think the minimum spacing, all else being equal, is probably a dozen miles or so, but that's just an educated guess on my part.


----------



## P Smith

Usually it is 0.2° station keeping box size.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Usually it is 0.2° station keeping box size.


47 C.F.R. § 25.114(d)(14)(iii) states in part . . .



> Where a space station requests the assignment of a geostationary-Earth orbit location, it must assess whether there are any known satellites located at, or reasonably expected to be located at, the requested orbital location, or assigned in the vicinity of that location, such that the station keeping volumes of the respective satellites might overlap. If so, the statement must include a statement as to the identities of those parties and the measures that will be taken to prevent collisions


That's all I can find in the FCC regulations, aside from provisions that say you have to prevent RF interference and be able to maintain tracking, telemetry and control.


----------



## Sixto

The official public notice of all the BSS grants from earlier in the week:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-1724A1.pdf​


----------



## P Smith

So, where any official note about D12 ?! Time is running out.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> So, where any official note about D12 ?! Time is running out.


Nada. 

Not a D12 peep ... tick, tock, tick, tock ....


----------



## P Smith

Darn, I was ready to accept a bet for that B-747 at Moffett.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Darn, I was ready to accept a bet for that B-747 at Moffett.


All may be fine, especially if the launch isn't until October/November.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> There's a bunch of unanswered questions in these FCC actions: first, why now? These are some OLD applications. In some cases, they were made in the 90's but have been pending for a good while. Did Directv push the Commission to make a decision finally or has it just taken this long naturally? To my knowledge there is no one yet using this particular band for direct-to-home satellite TV in the U.S. but bear in mind it's part of the Ku band - it's not at all clear how much programming could be added, especially HD programming. Perhaps that's why there are still four "RB" applications out there (as opposed to the only 2 Ka band sats originally planned).
> 
> Also, and more to the point, where the hell is Directv 12? :lol: I still can't find any authorizations or anything whatsoever to do with it in the FCC public databases. It's clear from reading a lot of these documents that there is a LOT of ex parte (i.e., one party) communications between the Commission and satellite operators and broadcasters, often WELL before stuff goes public. So I'm certain Directv is coordinating everything behind the scenes with the bureaucrats and almost certainly has been doing so for a couple years now. I just don't know why they haven't even listed an FCC satellite callsign publicly yet. I expect it to start seeing documents soon, which is part of the reason why I'm so surprised that these RB-1 and -2 actions were taken suddenly after the applications have been percolating around the system for so long.


Part of the "why now?" relates to the bandwidth itself.

The ITU approved the frequencies a long, long time ago--but it didn't take affect until April 1, 2007. So in the mid to late 90's, companies started filing for those possible slots.

Finally the FCC started to get it's act together and made some rulings. And proposals for comments (like spacing.)

And hemming and hawing about reconciling opinions on power and spacing and offsets from the spacing requirements (up to 1° from the nominal locations).

Then the tests by DIRECTV to verify what everyone thought they knew.

So now the decisions are finalized. And Lamelefty, Sixto, and I have many more years of satellite updates to work on.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The milestones (for DIRECTV RB-2, likely the same for all winners):


> Execute a binding contract for construction within one year (July 27, 2010);
> Complete the Critical Design Review within two years (July 27, 2011);
> Commence construction within three years (July 27, 2012);
> Launch and begin operations within five years (July 27, 2014); and
> DIRECTV must file a bond with the Commission in the amount of $3 million, pursuant to the procedures set forth in Public Notice, DA 03-2602, 18 FCC Rcd 16283 (2003), within 30 days of the date of this grant (August 26, 2009).
> Failure to meet any of these dates shall render this authorization null and void.


Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mreposter

Sixto said:


> All may be fine, especially if the launch isn't until October/November.


And a D12 going up at this later time fits in with Directv's pledge to launch EPSN-U HD "by the end of the first quarter 2010."


----------



## JoeTheDragon

mreposter said:


> And a D12 going up at this later time fits in with Directv's pledge to launch EPSN-U HD "by the end of the first quarter 2010."


end of q1 2010 may be the latest in time line that has room for delay built in and may even mean we will get it when the need for ST HD is dropped before the end of the year.


----------



## harsh

ST is already well provided for. That's why there are dozens of HD PPV channels floating around. Those in combination with the HD CONUS RSNs that would carry pro games add up to a pretty full ST slate.

The sports frustration is with ESPNU HD which will apparently have to wait.


----------



## mreposter

What I was trying to get at is that if D12 isn't going up until Oct/Nov (instead of the earlier rumors of September) then we might not see D12 go into full production with new channels until 3-6 months after launch - meaning Jan/Feb/March 2010. 

My gut is telling me that Directv is holding off on any new HD until they are absolutely certain D12 is up and operational. Once they're sure about D12 then they might start using some of the spare capacity, or worse case, wait to put all new HD on D12 early next year. But that's just my guess.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

There was obviously bandwidth when they put out the press release for ESPNUHD's future launch. They released it on May 19 and since then they added BET HD on June 29. So obviously bandwidth was not the issue, it has to do with contracts


----------



## sum_random_dork

harsh said:


> ST is already well provided for. That's why there are dozens of HD PPV channels floating around. Those in combination with the HD CONUS RSNs that would carry pro games add up to a pretty full ST slate.
> 
> The sports frustration is with ESPNU HD which will apparently have to wait.


I posted this on another post but from what a CSR told me (I know not the best source) they were looking to add ESPNU and (at least good news for me) CSN Bay Area and CA by the end of August. How accurate this is I am not sure, but I know that both CSN and D* have been getting a lot of pressure lately with the SF Giants playing so well and a fair amount of games only being in HD on CSNBA's full time HD channel.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

sum_random_dork said:


> I posted this on another post but from what a CSR told me (I know not the best source) they were looking to add ESPNU and (at least good news for me) CSN Bay Area and CA by the end of August. How accurate this is I am not sure, but I know that both CSN and D* have been getting a lot of pressure lately with the SF Giants playing so well and a fair amount of games only being in HD on CSNBA's full time HD channel.


It'd sure make *sense* for them to add ESPNU HD before college football season. It certainly seems to be in demand anyway.


----------



## dcowboy7

sum_random_dork said:


> a CSR told me they were looking to add ESPNU by the end of August.


That would be so sweet if that does happen just to see the reponses from all the people that say no more HD until D12 is good.


----------



## hancox

coca cola kid > dcowboy7 

Getting ESPNU HD by Labor Day would save D* a bunch of angry customers. I'd be one of them.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hancox said:


> coca cola kid > dcowboy7
> 
> Getting ESPNU HD by Labor Day would save D* a bunch of angry customers. I'd be one of them.


One specific channel being unavailable should never make anyone *angry*...disappointed, sure....frustrated, maybe....but not *angry*.


----------



## cartrivision

mreposter said:


> And a D12 going up at this later time fits in with Directv's pledge to launch EPSN-U HD "by the end of the first quarter 2010."


I kind of doubt that the addition of a single HD channel is in any way related to or reliant upon the launch of of a new satellite.


----------



## Shades228

cartrivision said:


> I kind of doubt that the addition of a single HD channel is in any way related to or reliant upon the launch of of a new satellite.


It can be based on other contracts. If they have a contract setup already to carry channels from one group, ie viacomm, then they have to keep enoguh space open in case viacomm was launching a new hd channel that was part of that contract. If the D12 had an issue for whatever reason and they launched other HD channels planning on putting that channel on D12 they would have to drop a channel to make room for that one.

I'm not saying that's the case just pointing out how existing contracts could impact a decision.


----------



## P Smith

Isn't time to get back to the topic ? To *D12 *?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

LameLefty said:


> The short answer is "Yes." The more precise (and perhaps more accurate) answer is, "Yes, so far as anyone knows publicly." The satellites are typically delivered to the launch provider 4 - 6 weeks ahead of the scheduled launch, which would mean D12 has to be delivered to the facilities in Baikonur by around mid-August (around 60 days from now, give or take). Similarly, documentation and approval for launch, testing and operation of the satellite will have to be filed with the FCC some time in advance of launch. However, as I noted the other day, SiriusXM's application for permission to operate their FM-5 satellite was submitted roughly the same time frame in advance of launch - 5 weeks.
> 
> *So, given that the more public steps in the process don't normally occur until 4 - 6 weeks ahead of launch, and we're still a couple months from that time frame, we can confidently say that nothing yet gives any indication that the late September target is off.*
> 
> Typically ILS has managed a sustained rate of approximately 1 Proton launch every month or so, though once they had two launch campaigns only two weeks apart. Assuming the payloads are ready on time, the holdup in a higher launch rate is usually booster/upperstage production and processing, not the launch operation itself.


Based upon this, I'm guessing if we do not hear anything within a week or two, D12 will officially be behind schedule? :whatdidid:scratchin


----------



## mreposter

When new sats are launched don't they normally do a webcast of the rocket going up?


----------



## RAD

mreposter said:


> When new sats are launched don't they normally do a webcast of the rocket going up?


The launch company usually does but then DirecTV also usually has a special event channel up for the launch so you can watch on TV.


----------



## smiddy

RAD said:


> The launch company usually does but then DirecTV also usually has a special event channel up for the launch so you can watch on TV.


Let's hope this one is in High Definition, nominally! :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

mreposter said:


> When new sats are launched don't they normally do a webcast of the rocket going up?





RAD said:


> The launch company usually does but then DirecTV also usually has a special event channel up for the launch so you can watch on TV.


Unfortunately, even though you can watch the first phase of the launch on TV or via the web, launching a large GSO comsat on a Proton from such a high latitude means a couple of things: #1, there are (if I recall correctly) 4 burns of the Briz-M upper stage spaced out over around 9 hours, all of which have to happen correctly and none of which you can see on TV. #2, even after that, the satellite itself is in a highly-elliptical, fairly high-inclination GTO (geostationary transfer orbit) that will take quite some time to fully circularize and lower into the proper near-zero inclination GSO parked over its final location. If our experience two years ago with D10 is anything to go by (and it is, actually), it will likely be at least a few weeks or more post-launch before the orbit is close to finalized. This is because the post-launch orbital maneuvers are done in a way to result in many very, very small changes over a long period of time in order to minimize the fuel used (and thus maximize the final lifespan of the vehicle).

So, long story short, even after launch, we will be waiting around and watching for quite some time with little or no "official" information aside from periodic updated orbital element sets from NORAD Space Command until D12 goes fully live.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> So, long story short, even after launch, we will be waiting around and watching for quite some time with little or no "official" information aside from periodic updated orbital element sets from NORAD Space Command until D12 goes fully live.


I am on ht eedge of my seat, and saying I can't wait, well, is an oxymoron, but still, you know what I mean. This is going to get very exciting real soon!


----------



## DarinC

LameLefty said:


> So, long story short, even after launch, we will be waiting around and watching for quite some time with little or no "official" information aside from periodic updated orbital element sets from NORAD Space Command until D12 goes fully live.


They should put PTZ cameras on each satellite. At least then we could continue to watch it as it passes by the existing satellites. :grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I am on ht eedge of my seat, and saying I can't wait, well, is an oxymoron, but still, you know what I mean. This is going to get very exciting real soon!


Since D12 is planned to bridge any perceived or actual gaps in bandwidth needed for delivery of all the HD content DirecTV requires for another year or two...yes...many of us share in that excitement. 

The clock is ticking, and now we are really getting close to the D12 launch, and the activation soon thereafter.


----------



## Sixto

Been out ... we have news ...


----------



## Sixto

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173014


----------



## Sixto

Can't believe I was out on a Friday night and it finally hit ... researching ... just posted link above ...

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173014


----------



## Sixto

"DIRECTV 12 will be used to further expand DIRECTV’s capability to provide HD services to American consumers. The satellite is fully compliant with Commission rules relating to Ka-band blanket earth station licensing. Its operations will be carefully integrated with those of DIRECTV’s existing on-orbit Ka-band satellites at the nominal 103° W.L. orbital location in order to optimize the efficient use of valuable spectrum resources at that location and to incorporate redundancy to DIRECTV’s HD operations. Combined with the SPACEWAY 1 and DIRECTV 10 satellites operating at 103° W.L., this satellite will give DIRECTV the ability to broadcast an additional 80 channels of national HD programming. The satellite will also be capable of supporting 49 spot beams that will serve as in-orbit redundancy or replacement for several operational scenarios.4 Initially, DIRECTV intends to use this satellite, in part, to take over retransmission of HD local services currently being provided by DIRECTV 10, at which time the spot beam capability of DIRECTV 10 will become the backup for that capability on DIRECTV 12. By granting this application, the Commission will enable at which time the spot beam capability of DIRECTV 10 will become the backup for that capability on DIRECTV 12."


----------



## BWELL316

Nice work posting this so quickly.

So construction won't be finished until October? Awesome, I assume this means a November/December launch.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> "DIRECTV 12 will be used to further expand DIRECTV's capability to provide HD services to American consumers. The satellite is fully compliant with Commission rules relating to Ka-band blanket earth station licensing. Its operations will be carefully integrated with those of DIRECTV's existing on-orbit Ka-band satellites at the nominal 103° W.L. orbital location in order to optimize the efficient use of valuable spectrum resources at that location and to incorporate redundancy to DIRECTV's HD operations. Combined with the SPACEWAY 1 and DIRECTV 10 satellites operating at 103° W.L., this satellite will give DIRECTV the ability to broadcast an additional 80 channels of national HD programming. The satellite will also be capable of supporting 49 spot beams that will serve as in-orbit redundancy or replacement for several operational scenarios.4 Initially, DIRECTV intends to use this satellite, in part, to take over retransmission of HD local services currently being provided by DIRECTV 10, at which time the spot beam capability of DIRECTV 10 will become the backup for that capability on DIRECTV 12. By granting this application, the Commission will enable at which time the spot beam capability of DIRECTV 10 will become the backup for that capability on DIRECTV 12."


When will it be fully operational, according to DirecTV and the FCC? More importantly, exactly when will we get those additional 80 channels?


----------



## Sixto

And http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173008

Continuing to look ...


----------



## Sixto

"DIRECTV anticipates that Boeing will complete construction of DIRECTV 12 in October of this year and that the satellite will be launched by the end of this year."


----------



## BWELL316

I'm sorry Sixto it is tough to read through the tears :lol:


----------



## P Smith

"DTH service in the FSS Ka-band (18.3-18.8 GHz and *19.7-20.2* GHz (space-to-
earth)" - that's something new; how current LNBF will convert the upper range ?

"The DIRECTV 12 satellite is capable of supporting sixteen Ka-band transponders
(eight LHCP and eight RHCP) providing coverage via a national beam and ten Ka-band
transponders (five LHCP and five RHCP) providing coverage via 49 spot beams." - the plan is different from D-11. Is there more info in Schedule S ?


----------



## Sixto

yep. having some trouble with exhibit s ... working on it ... and it's late ...

"Details of the frequency and polarization plan of the DIRECTV 12 satellite, including the TT&C functions, are included in the accompanying Schedule S"

I can't read exhibit S: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173022


----------



## P Smith

Oops, it's MDB [Access] file and protected somehow [permissions].


----------



## LameLefty

So it looks like Directv 12 will actually be both "Directv 12" and "RB-2A", containing both the expected Ka band payload as well as a BSS band payload. That's very interesting. Too bad the Schedule S attachments are corrupted or glitched. I imagine the FCC will fix that next week once they realize it. 

I'm a little pissed that this showed up so late in the day - I already checked all these databases around mid-afternoon and nothing had shown up yet. :lol


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I'm a little pissed that this showed up so late in the day - I already checked all these databases around mid-afternoon and nothing had shown up yet. :lol


You?  I just walked in late (not in the best condition to be reading FCC filings!  and saw a pop-up that something changed!

And much to my surprise ... 

1:25am here now ... later ...

(did go to an awesome event tonight ...)


----------



## Sixto

To summarize everything in one place (for now):

*DirecTV 12:*
Application:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729763​Exhibit-A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173017​Exhibit-B (Request for Partial Waiver of Section 25.210(I) 30 DB Cross-Polarization Requirement):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173015​Exhibit-C (Application for Authorization to Launch and Operate DirecTV 12):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173014​Schedule-S:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173022​
*DirecTV RB-2A:*
Application:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729761​Exhibit-A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173007​Exhibit-B (Waiver Requests):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173008​Exhibit-C (Application for Authorization to Launch and Operate DirecTV RB-2A):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173006​Schedule-S:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173013​RB-2A is 18 transponders at 17.3GHz:


Code:


chnkey	satkey	chanid	bandwid	tr_mode	freq	polariz	ttchan
9	19033	T01	36000	T	17345	R	C
10	19033	T02	36000	T	17345	L	C
11	19033	T03	36000	T	17385	R	C
12	19033	T04	36000	T	17385	L	C
13	19033	T05	36000	T	17425	R	C
14	19033	T06	36000	T	17425	L	C
15	19033	T07	36000	T	17465	R	C
16	19033	T08	36000	T	17465	L	C
17	19033	T09	36000	T	17505	R	C
18	19033	T10	36000	T	17505	L	C
19	19033	T11	36000	T	17545	R	C
20	19033	T12	36000	T	17545	L	C
21	19033	T13	36000	T	17585	R	C
22	19033	T14	36000	T	17585	L	C
23	19033	T15	36000	T	17625	R	C
24	19033	T16	36000	T	17625	L	C
25	19033	T17	36000	T	17665	R	C
26	19033	T18	36000	T	17665	L	C
35	19033	R01	36000	R	24785	R	C
36	19033	R02	36000	R	24785	L	C
37	19033	R03	36000	R	24825	R	C
38	19033	R04	36000	R	24825	L	C
39	19033	R05	36000	R	24865	R	C
40	19033	R06	36000	R	24865	L	C
41	19033	R07	36000	R	24905	R	C
42	19033	R08	36000	R	24905	L	C
43	19033	R09	36000	R	24945	R	C
44	19033	R10	36000	R	24945	L	C
45	19033	R11	36000	R	24985	R	C
46	19033	R12	36000	R	24985	L	C
47	19033	R13	36000	R	25025	R	C
48	19033	R14	36000	R	25025	L	C
49	19033	R15	36000	R	25065	R	C
50	19033	R16	36000	R	25065	L	C
51	19033	R17	36000	R	25105	R	C
52	19033	R18	36000	R	25105	L	C
61	19033	CMD1	1300	R	29255	L	T
62	19033	CMD2	1300	R	29497	L	T
132	19033	TLM1	106	T	18302.25	R	T
133	19033	TLM2	106	T	18302.75	L	T

Lots of reading ...

And Schedule-S is a problem right now ...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> "DIRECTV anticipates that Boeing will complete construction of DIRECTV 12 in October of this year and that the satellite will be launched by the end of this year."


So no launch until December? 

So I guess Satelliteracer was right then.



> Originally Posted by Satelliteracer View Post
> September? I think Santa still plans on having the elves pack his sleigh in early to mid December so they can watch the launch before he has his own flying to do....in December.


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> So no launch until December?
> 
> So I guess Satelliteracer was right then.


Yep, the Filing seems to be pretty clear: ""DIRECTV anticipates that Boeing will complete construction of DIRECTV 12 in October of this year and that the satellite will be launched by the end of this year."

It looks like they may have been waiting for the BSS approvals.


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> "DTH service in the FSS Ka-band (18.3-18.8 GHz and *19.7-20.2* GHz (space-to-
> earth)" - that's something new; how current LNBF will convert the upper range ?


It will be converted just like it is with Spaceway 1 & 2 (Ka-high). The spaceways don't use the whole 500 MHz band and there should be enough available bandwidth for several transponders.


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> It will be converted just like it is with Spaceway 1 & 2 (Ka-high). The spaceways don't use the whole 500 MHz band and there should be enough available bandwidth for several transponders.


Well, remember what Sixto's, gct and others' analysis has shown, to: the Spaceways have been "unloaded" over the last 6 - 8 months in favor of D10 and D11 as compared to what they originally were carrying. I suspect this is so they can run fewer transponders at higher power and/or consolidate transponders/frequencies in advance of D12 going live.

Interesting stuff.

EDITED TO ADD: I went to go shoot my buddy Anik a note over at NASASpaceflight.com with a link to the FCC docs, and see that Sixto already did it at 2:00 in the morning. Man, you are on the ball my friend! :lol:


----------



## harsh

At long last some information comes from the source. DIRECTV has done an excellent job of not letting any word get out.

Put this into your decrypter: "second half" translated to "end of". You pretty much have to expect this with a Boeing built satellite it seems. A big raspberry to all of those that said that DIRECTV 12 had been built months (or even years) ago.

Makes one wonder how much time they'll spend on tinkering with the proposed spotbeam transfer.

I'm also interested in what the FCC thinks about satellites being backups for opposite functions of each other. I'm assuming that this application is subject to possible refinement as part of the approval process.

Congratulations Sixto on being credited by anik!

Now to guestimate how this shuffles the Proton-M/Briz-M launch queue...


----------



## harsh

For the schedule S, the attachment is a zip file and the database file can be extracted if you add a .zip extension to the file name that it downloads. I'm getting the feeling that they used Access 2007 (.accdb). The file inside the archive is named DIRECTV RB-2A.mdb.

edit: I was able to open the .mdb file using OpenOffice 2.4 Base. Renaming the downloaded file as .accdb does NOT work.

reedit: Microsoft is EEEEEEEvilllle.


----------



## smiddy

Someone smarter than me take a look at the stack plan, since this is going into 103, please (I only skimmed the FCC papers; I assume it will fold into existing stack plan).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> A big raspberry to all of those that said that DIRECTV 12 had been built months (or even years) ago.


No rasberries needed Mr. Dish.

D12 *was* already constructed in its base form..."complete construction" can also mean the final touches to re-configuration the way they want it for final setup.

The bird *was* "built" for some time, but *construction* is not finished until *the last *of the transponder and other contents are fully set.

No sense in blurring those lines.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> Someone smarter than me take a look at the stack plan, since this is going into 103, please (I only skimmed the FCC papers; I assume it will fold into existing stack plan).


We need get the Schedule S viewable first.


----------



## RAD

A bit OT but I found this one sentence interesting:

_"Nearly 60% of new DIRECTV subscribers, and over 50% of the total DIRECTV customer base, subscribe to HD services."_

First time I've seen a statement on how many HD customers they have, that's higher then I would have thought.


----------



## Sixto

Got the RB-2A Schedule-S (DIRECTV RB-2A.mdb) in readable form ... Still working accessing it ...


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Got the RB-2A Schedule-S (DIRECTV RB-2A.mdb) in readable form ... Still working accessing it ...


Is a dot mdb an access file?


----------



## LarryFlowers

Yes!



smiddy said:


> Is a dot mdb an access file?


----------



## smiddy

The BSS stuff is very interesting indeed. Can you say interactive TV?


----------



## RAD

smiddy said:


> The BSS stuff is very interesting indeed. Can you say interactive TV?


Or is it just more bandwidth for HD LIL cities or for carry one carry all?


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Got the RB-2A Schedule-S (DIRECTV RB-2A.mdb) in readable form ... Still working accessing it ...





smiddy said:


> Is a dot mdb an access file?





LarryFlowers said:


> Yes!


Then it should be too long before you've gotten this one figured out.


----------



## smiddy

RAD said:


> Or is it just more bandwidth for HD LIL cities or for carry one carry all?


Oh, please explain how that works. I'm sure I understand "Carry One, Carry All" how does that work?


----------



## Sixto

Looks like the Ka-Lo (10 transponders) will replace D10 spots. Ka-Hi will be the new national HD with 16 transponders (instead of the usual 14). And RB-2A will be the new BSS (approved last week) with more spots, with the need for every HD in a market where there's at least one HD. Haven't confirmed all this yet (still struggling with this MDB file). All subject to update as we continue to dig.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

> this satellite will give DIRECTV the ability to broadcast an additional 80 channels of national HD programming


Sweet! 

So how many transponders, and how many channels per transponder is that?

EDIT: So if they stay with 5 channels per transponder, thats 16 transponder. Cool.


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> Well, remember what Sixto's, gct and others' analysis has shown, to: the Spaceways have been "unloaded" over the last 6 - 8 months in favor of D10 and D11 as compared to what they originally were carrying. I suspect this is so they can run fewer transponders at higher power and/or consolidate transponders/frequencies in advance of D12 going live.
> 
> Interesting stuff.
> 
> EDITED TO ADD: I went to go shoot my buddy Anik a note over at NASASpaceflight.com with a link to the FCC docs, and see that Sixto already did it at 2:00 in the morning. Man, you are on the ball my friend! :lol:


Fewer SW1 transponders = more D12 transponders, but where does SW2 fit in (maybe just the higher power advantages)?


----------



## harsh

smiddy said:


> Oh, please explain how that works. I'm sure I understand "Carry One, Carry All" how does that work?


Here's a link: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE5196V720090210


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Yes! News! Looks like no D12 HD in 2009. However, still happy D12 is rolling!


----------



## harsh

bobnielsen said:


> Fewer SW1 transponders = more D12 transponders, but where does SW2 fit in?


Spaceway 2 is at 99W and therefore not a consideration with respect to how the 103W are being utilized. DIRECTV doesn't have to show how their constellation is going to work as part of this process; they just have to show that the slot (103W) will work.


----------



## LameLefty

The BSS application is interesting, especially in light of the coordination which is required with the future Canadian BSS license at 103W. Directv acknowledges this in the application with regard to being able to provide CONUS coverage all the way to the border without interfering with future Canadian use of that spectrum, which is why they are going with spotbeam payload. Interestingly, the application makes references to "niche services" at this time, in advance of the more full-featured RB-2 vehicle to come. That makes me wonder if Directv is planning something like international HD programming for that payload, something for which they can do a relatively small number of retrofits or new installs with specialized LNBs and/or SWM-type equipment to fit this programming into the stack plan. I don't know enough RF engineering to really do more than speculate, but it's interesting.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> EDITED TO ADD: I went to go shoot my buddy Anik a note over at NASASpaceflight.com with a link to the FCC docs, and see that Sixto already did it at 2:00 in the morning. Man, you are on the ball my friend! :lol:


Anik must read DBSTalk! I just posted the links here and (eventually) went to bed ...


----------



## Sixto

RB-2A (still working on D12) ...

RB-2A is 18 transponders at 17.3GHz:


Code:


chnkey	satkey	chanid	bandwid	tr_mode	freq	polariz	ttchan
9	19033	T01	36000	T	17345	R	C
10	19033	T02	36000	T	17345	L	C
11	19033	T03	36000	T	17385	R	C
12	19033	T04	36000	T	17385	L	C
13	19033	T05	36000	T	17425	R	C
14	19033	T06	36000	T	17425	L	C
15	19033	T07	36000	T	17465	R	C
16	19033	T08	36000	T	17465	L	C
17	19033	T09	36000	T	17505	R	C
18	19033	T10	36000	T	17505	L	C
19	19033	T11	36000	T	17545	R	C
20	19033	T12	36000	T	17545	L	C
21	19033	T13	36000	T	17585	R	C
22	19033	T14	36000	T	17585	L	C
23	19033	T15	36000	T	17625	R	C
24	19033	T16	36000	T	17625	L	C
25	19033	T17	36000	T	17665	R	C
26	19033	T18	36000	T	17665	L	C
35	19033	R01	36000	R	24785	R	C
36	19033	R02	36000	R	24785	L	C
37	19033	R03	36000	R	24825	R	C
38	19033	R04	36000	R	24825	L	C
39	19033	R05	36000	R	24865	R	C
40	19033	R06	36000	R	24865	L	C
41	19033	R07	36000	R	24905	R	C
42	19033	R08	36000	R	24905	L	C
43	19033	R09	36000	R	24945	R	C
44	19033	R10	36000	R	24945	L	C
45	19033	R11	36000	R	24985	R	C
46	19033	R12	36000	R	24985	L	C
47	19033	R13	36000	R	25025	R	C
48	19033	R14	36000	R	25025	L	C
49	19033	R15	36000	R	25065	R	C
50	19033	R16	36000	R	25065	L	C
51	19033	R17	36000	R	25105	R	C
52	19033	R18	36000	R	25105	L	C
61	19033	CMD1	1300	R	29255	L	T
62	19033	CMD2	1300	R	29497	L	T
132	19033	TLM1	106	T	18302.25	R	T
133	19033	TLM2	106	T	18302.75	L	T


----------



## Sixto

BTW, once all the data is collected and thoroughly understood, will post an easy to understand summary, and update post#1.

Just trying to find/collect all the data at the moment.

Sorry for the fragmented posts ... but just posting as each piece of info is found ...


----------



## Drew2k

I appreciate the work you all are doing on this ... :up:

I'm definitely one who needs to wait for the Cliff Notes release.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> That makes me wonder if Directv is planning something like international HD programming for that payload, something for which they can do a relatively small number of retrofits or new installs with specialized LNBs and/or SWM-type equipment to fit this programming into the stack plan.


Given the geographically boundless appeal of International programming, it seems unlikely that they would use spots to deliver it.

I can see where they might want to use the capacity for private feeds like retail store chains.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

harsh said:


> Here's a link: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE5196V720090210


how does that work with station owners who play hard ball like Weigel Broadcasting?
I also think that they should force cable co to make of the cable only stuff on sat as well. I want CLTV.


----------



## Sixto

Making a little progress with the D12 data ... looks like it will be transponders 9-24 ... working it ...


----------



## Sixto

Got it ... I think ... 

D12 Conus are Ka-Hi transponders 9-14. D12 will use between 19890-20210. 36MHz each with 4MHz in between. Spaceway-1 had access to 19700-21000.

D12 Spots are Ka-Lo transponders 15-24. This is same as D10.


Code:


chnkey	satkey	chanid	bandwid	tr_mode	freq	polariz	ttchan
81	8	TC09	36000	T	19890	R	C
82	8	TC10	36000	T	19890	L	C
83	8	TC11	36000	T	19930	R	C
84	8	TC12	36000	T	19930	L	C
85	8	TC13	36000	T	19970	R	C
86	8	TC14	36000	T	19970	L	C
87	8	TC15	36000	T	20010	R	C
88	8	TC16	36000	T	20010	L	C
89	8	TC17	36000	T	20050	R	C
90	8	TC18	36000	T	20050	L	C
91	8	TC19	36000	T	20090	R	C
92	8	TC20	36000	T	20090	L	C
93	8	TC21	36000	T	20130	R	C
94	8	TC22	36000	T	20130	L	C
95	8	TC23	36000	T	20170	R	C
96	8	TC24	36000	T	20170	L	C
97	8	TS15	36000	T	18604	R	C
98	8	TS16	36000	T	18604	L	C
99	8	TS17	36000	T	18648	R	C
100	8	TS18	36000	T	18648	L	C
138	8	TS19	36000	T	18692	R	C
139	8	TS20	36000	T	18692	L	C
140	8	TS21	36000	T	18732	R	C
141	8	TS22	36000	T	18732	L	C
142	8	TS23	36000	T	18776	R	C
143	8	TS24	36000	T	18776	L	C


----------



## Sixto

*In summary ...*

D10 is 32 transponders within 18300-18800 ("Ka-Lo").
D10 CONUS are TP1-TP14 within 18300-18600.
D10 Spots are TP15-TP24 within 18600-18800.

SW1 has been within 19700-20200 ("Ka-Hi").
All spots.

D12 will be 26 transponders.
D12 CONUS will be TP9-TP24 within 19890-20200 (taking from SW1 and "Ka-Hi"). This is 80 new national HD at 5 per transponder.
D12 Spots will be TP15-TP24 within 18600-18800 (same as D10 and "Ka-Lo"). 49 spot beams for in-orbit redundancy or replacement for the spot beam capability of either D10 or D11 (if D12 were moved).

RB-2A (on D12) will be 18 transponders.
TP1-TP18 within 17345-17700 ("BSS").
Will be used for four spotbeams within the "western United States".

Post with the FCC Filing(s):http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2179066#post2179066​Subject to change if I find something new.


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> Here's a link: http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE5196V720090210


Thanks man, now I understand that, but I don't get how BSS coincides. :shrug:


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Thanks man, now I understand that, but I don't get how BSS coincides. :shrug:


One way Directv might meet proposed carriage rules and cover every station in every market would be to use BSS for the smaller markets (which would require relatively small numbers of new dishes/receivers as compared to the general Directv subscriber base at large). This would let existing Ka assets (plus D12) cover the larger markets and add missing channels in those markets using existing equipment already deployed in the field.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> One way Directv might meet proposed carriage rules and cover every station in every market would be to use BSS for the smaller markets (which would require relatively small numbers of new dishes/receivers as compared to the general Directv subscriber base at large). This would let existing Ka assets (plus D12) cover the larger markets and add missing channels in those markets using existing equipment already deployed in the field.


Ah, ok, this makes sense to me now, thanks!


----------



## Mertzen

LameLefty said:


> to use BSS for the smaller markets (which would require relatively small numbers of new dishes/receivers


Would BSS require new IRDs?


----------



## LameLefty

Mertzen said:


> Would BSS require new IRDs?


I don't know. It depends on the specs of the tuners in existing boxes and how BSS fits into the stack plan. I would think that some version of SWM technology would be the easiest way to implement this without requiring receivers to be replaced.


----------



## P Smith

Code:


chnkey	satkey	chanid	bandwid	tr_mode	freq	polariz	ttchan
81	8	TC09	36000	T	19890	R	C
82	8	TC10	36000	T	19890	L	C

Looks like we got new network ID for the sat: D12 = 0008. GCT, time to update your 'decoder ring' .


----------



## Mertzen

LameLefty said:


> I don't know. It depends on the specs of the tuners in existing boxes and how BSS fits into the stack plan. I would think that some version of SWM technology would be the easiest way to implement this without requiring receivers to be replaced.


Or some new form of BBC?


----------



## Gary Toma

P Smith said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> chnkey    satkey    chanid    bandwid    tr_mode    freq    polariz    ttchan
> 81    8    TC09    36000    T    19890    R    C
> 82    8    TC10    36000    T    19890    L    C
> 
> Looks like we got new network ID for the sat: D12 = 0008. GCT, time to update your 'decoder ring' .


Okay,
Here is my feeble attempt to chart the information on D12 presented in this thread in the last couple of days.

Please - point out the holes in my logic (and my head) so we can have an accurate reference document.

Thanks!!


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> One way Directv might meet proposed carriage rules and cover every station in every market would be to use BSS for the smaller markets (which would require relatively small numbers of new dishes/receivers as compared to the general Directv subscriber base at large).


The "western United States" markets that DIRECTV currently serves HD to typically aren't particularly small. It would seem that they would have been better served pointing the BSS more easterly if they were trying to limit the need for oddball dish arrangements and who knows what stack plans. Then again, the west half owns Montana and Wyoming that haven't seen much love (SD or HD) yet.

Again, this raises the question of how they are planning on receiving DBS and BSS from the same slot.


----------



## Sixto

Post#1 is now all up-to-date.


----------



## P Smith

gct said:


> Okay,
> Here is my feeble attempt to chart the information on D12 presented in this thread in the last couple of days.
> 
> Please - point out the holes in my logic (and my head) so we can have an accurate reference document.
> 
> Thanks!!


That BSS sat [RB-2A] will have different NetID - check here.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Do these codes tell us what new HD channels we're getting? If so please share.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Do these codes tell us what new HD channels we're getting? If so please share.


Nope....just capacity and frequencies.

Nice work (as always) Sixto and LameLefty - POST #1 is a solid summation of where D12 is within the process.

We are roughly about 90-120 days from launch now.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We are roughly about 90-120 days from launch now.


Yeah, something like that. :lol:


----------



## evan_s

How bss would integrate into the stack plan is a big question. For swm it would mean using the SWM8 instead of the SWM LNB or a new version that can receive the bss directly that they have always used for residential installs since the SWM LNB doesn't have any additional inputs. A swm8 with a firmware update could theoretically handle a bss side dish on one or both of the flex ports just like the international / 72.5 dishes.

Personally my guess at this point is that the 4 spots will be used for some back hauling. If memory serves they have several uplink facilities that would qualify as the western us. I wouldn't be too surprised to see the bss payload on d11 activated too. They did the same thing with the spaceways putting a couple spots on them for backhauling in KA lo until they got d10 and d11 launched.


----------



## Christopher Gould

so whats spaceway 1 plan?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

evan_s said:


> How bss would integrate into the stack plan is a big question. For swm it would mean using the SWM8 instead of the SWM LNB or a new version that can receive the bss directly that they have always used for residential installs since the SWM LNB doesn't have any additional inputs. A swm8 with a firmware update could theoretically handle a bss side dish on one or both of the flex ports just like the international / 72.5 dishes.


Perhaps there might be some commercial application plans...


----------



## harsh

Christopher Gould said:


> so whats spaceway 1 plan?


The topic of another thread?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> The topic of another thread?


:lol:


----------



## smiddy

evan_s said:


> ...I wouldn't be too surprised to see the bss payload on d11 activated too. They did the same thing with the spaceways putting a couple spots on them for backhauling in KA lo until they got d10 and d11 launched.


This is interesting that would mean watching for FCC notes for D11 then to see what happens. Also, I would hope that the BSS transmitters are configuable since I would think there have been some changes based on their tests last time.

Man this is going to get exciting!


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> Personally my guess at this point is that the 4 spots will be used for some back hauling. If memory serves they have several uplink facilities that would qualify as the western us. I wouldn't be too surprised to see the bss payload on d11 activated too. They did the same thing with the spaceways putting a couple spots on them for backhauling in KA lo until they got d10 and d11 launched.


I tend to doubt both things right now, based on FCC filings. This license application is specifically for direct-to-home service. The Ka-band backhaul payloads on D8 and D9S both have separate FCC licenses specifically for backhauling, along with separate FCC satellite space station IDs (just like the BSS payload for D12 has a separate FCC ID from the Ka payload).

But who knows. We're kind of learning as we go here, much like Directv is (or will be) with BSS operations (presuming that license is granted of course).


----------



## DirectMan

Using D12 to replace the spots of D10 - does this tend to confirm that they had and still do have problems with the spot transponders on D10? Might we see some changes in D10 spot footprints when they switch over to D12? Perhaps higher power or different shapes?


----------



## LameLefty

DirectMan said:


> Using D12 to replace the spots of D10 - does this tend to confirm that they had and still do have problems with the spot transponders on D10? Might we see some changes in D10 spot footprints when they switch over to D12? Perhaps higher power or different shapes?


The documents filed with the FCC confirm that there is a problem with one or more spots on D10 as regards coverage of certain parts of the United States, but don't go into great detail. Presumably, D11 did not have similar problems.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Looks like the Ka-Lo (10 transponders) will replace D10 spots. Ka-Hi will be the new national HD with 16 transponders (instead of the usual 14). And RB-2A will be the new BSS (approved last week) with more spots, with the need for every HD in a market where there's at least one HD. Haven't confirmed all this yet (still struggling with this MDB file). All subject to update as we continue to dig.


OK, I'm a little lost (nothing new there), so I'm asking the "experts".

If D12 spot-beam transponders are going to replace D10 spot-beam transponders, then won't this mean that the amount of additional local markets offered by D12 will be small (other than the gain of spots currently damaged on D10) or DMAs POSSIBLY added via BSS on the West Coast?

Yes, I am aware they can possibly re-arrange things to offer more, but as I'm still hoping for HD (and SD) LIL, D12's additional HD-LIL was one of the things I'm looking forward to the most, and I'm starting to get worried the expansion won't be as big as I was hoping.

~Alan


----------



## Shades228

Alan Gordon said:


> OK, I'm a little lost (nothing new there), so I'm asking the "experts".
> 
> If D12 spot-beam transponders are going to replace D10 spot-beam transponders, then won't this mean that the amount of additional local markets offered by D12 will be small (other than the gain of spots currently damaged on D10) or DMAs POSSIBLY added via BSS on the West Coast?
> 
> Yes, I am aware they can possibly re-arrange things to offer more, but as I'm still hoping for HD (and SD) LIL, D12's additional HD-LIL was one of the things I'm looking forward to the most, and I'm starting to get worried the expansion won't be as big as I was hoping.
> 
> ~Alan


There are still all the spots on the spaceways and clearing what's on D10 will open those frequencies to be used on the spaceway. Since the spaceway spots can be moved around this will give them more flexibility and be able to expand LIL and HD LIL. Unless my understanding is incorrect.


----------



## Sixto

Shades228 said:


> There are still all the spots on the spaceways and clearing what's on D10 will open those frequencies to be used on the spaceway. Since the spaceway spots can be moved around this will give them more flexibility and be able to expand LIL and HD LIL. Unless my understanding is incorrect.


Spaceway spots are Ka-Hi.

D10/D12 spots are Ka-Lo, and share the same frequency range.

See post#1 for details.


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> OK, I'm a little lost (nothing new there), so I'm asking the "experts".
> 
> If D12 spot-beam transponders are going to replace D10 spot-beam transponders, then won't this mean that the amount of additional local markets offered by D12 will be small (other than the gain of spots currently damaged on D10) or DMAs POSSIBLY added via BSS on the West Coast?
> 
> Yes, I am aware they can possibly re-arrange things to offer more, but as I'm still hoping for HD (and SD) LIL, D12's additional HD-LIL was one of the things I'm looking forward to the most, and I'm starting to get worried the expansion won't be as big as I was hoping.
> 
> ~Alan


Yep, D10 and D12 share the same exact frequency range for the spots and workload can be moved from one to the other.

The total number of active spots that will be functional and transmitting once D10 and D12 are at full capacity isn't clear yet. All depends on the health of the D10 spots, and the size and geography capabilites of both the D10 and D12 spots.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yep, D10 and D12 share the same exact frequency range for the spots and workload can be moved from one to the other.
> 
> The total number of active spots that will be functional and transmitting once D10 and D12 are at full capacity isn't clear yet. All depends on the health of the D10 spots,* and the size and geography capabilites of both the D10 and D12 spots.*


Yep.

Unlike the phased-array transmitters of the Spaceways, the spotbeams of D10-11-12 are essentially "fixed" for all intents and purposes by the geometry of the satellite bus and antenna configuration. It is my understanding (subject to correction from those better schooled in antenna design of course), that the physical pointing of the beams can be adjusted (if at all) only very minimally on-orbit.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> The total number of active spots that will be functional and transmitting once D10 and D12 are at full capacity isn't clear yet. All depends on the health of the D10 spots, and the size and geography capabilites of both the D10 and D12 spots.


*Yeah, I know there's still a lot of stuff unknown.*

Back in March, you posted this table, which led us to theorize that D12 would go up with SW2 (due to SW2's channel count diminishing), but now that D12 is going up with SW1 and D11, there's quite a bit of room on SW2, so I guess more can be added there... unless they plan to move HD-LIL off of SW1 to SW2?

If DirecTV intends to use BSS on D12, what about the BSS payload on D11? How many transponders are there on D11?

How many spot-beams are in use on D10 and D11.

Can D12 (via spot-beams) allow DirecTV to use the currently available spot-beams more efficiently... well, OK, we already know the answer to that, but I'm referring to the fact that we don't know how much.

As you can tell, DirecTV's HD-LIL rollout is important to me, and I have high hopes that they can "maneuver" things around to still do a STRONG HD-LIL push once D12 is active, but the news that D12 will not exactly be adding the amount of spots I expected, I'm having to "cling" to that hope.

~Alan


----------



## DarinC

LameLefty said:


> Unlike the phased-array transmitters of the Spaceways, the spotbeams of D10-11-12 are essentially "fixed" for all intents and purposes by the geometry of the satellite bus and antenna configuration. It is my understanding (subject to correction from those better schooled in antenna design of course), that the physical pointing of the beams can be adjusted (if at all) only very minimally on-orbit.


It is my understanding that they are fixed, and can't be adjusted at all after the sat is launched. But it is _possible_ that D10 and D12 have different spot beam patterns. Just because one backs up the other doesn't mean they have to be exactly the same. Since the Spaceway 1 is _completely _configurable, It can "fill in" the holes differently if D12 is active than it does when D10 is active. So even though on the surface it would appear that D12 wouldn't increase LIL capacity, it's _possible _that they've worked up a configuration of spots between SW1 and D12 that's slightly more efficient than what they're using with SW1 and D10. It doesn't seem likely to me, as the DMAs haven't really changed, and you would think they would have thought everything out sufficiently with D10. But it's _possible_.

I think a more probably explanation is more in line with the thought I had back in March... reliable broadcasting of Ka took more power than they anticipated, and D10/D11 just don't have enough power to push all the transponders with the power required to run 8PSK on all of them. They need to get the broadcast power up higher to get the S/N ratio high enough for reliable 8PSK transmission. Are there detailed enough specs publicly available on D12 to see if perhaps it has higher power capacity? THAT would simultaneously explain moving the LIL off of D10, as well as how they will be able to significantly increase bandwidth without increase spectrum usage. Moving LIL off of D10 may give it enough power/transponder to move to 8PSK, while D12 may have the power to do LIL and 8PSK on CONUS simultaneously (if D12 didn't have more power, it would seem to make more sense to share LIL load between D10 and D12). IF that's true, then it would seem that an additional capacity increase could be attained by a sixth Ka sat @ 99, since on the surface it seems to have the same limitation as D10 (doesn't appear to have significantly higher channel loading).

All just conjecture, of course.


----------



## LameLefty

DarinC said:


> It is my understanding that they are fixed, and can't be adjusted at all after the sat is launched.


Exactly. However, there are very minute pointing adjustments of the satellite body itself which would affect all the spotbeams, as well as (possibly) some very small range of articulation in the antenna assemblies as they are deployed post-launch that can affect beam coverage. However, I'm not sure if the D10/11/12 configuration utilizes such a technique.



> But it is _possible_ that D10 and D12 have different spot beam patterns. Just because one backs up the other doesn't mean they have to be exactly the same


Right. I think that's a key point. In point of fact, we KNOW they're not exactly the same, by virtue of D12 having four BSS-band spotbeams.



> Since the Spaceway 1 is _completely _configurable, It can "fill in" the holes differently if D12 is active than it does when D10 is active. So even though on the surface it would appear that D12 wouldn't increase LIL capacity, it's _possible _that they've worked up a configuration of spots between SW1 and D12 that's slightly more efficient than what they're using with SW1 and D10. It doesn't seem likely to me, as the DMAs haven't really changed, and you would think they would have thought everything out sufficiently with D10. But it's _possible_.
> 
> I think a more probably explanation is more in line with the thought I had back in March... reliable broadcasting of Ka took more power than they anticipated, and D10/D11 just don't have enough power to push all the transponders with the power required to run 8PSK on all of them. They need to get the broadcast power up higher to get the S/N ratio high enough for reliable 8PSK transmission. Are there detailed enough specs publicly available on D12 to see if perhaps it has higher power capacity? THAT would simultaneously explain moving the LIL off of D10, as well as how they will be able to significantly increase bandwidth without increase spectrum usage. Moving LIL off of D10 may give it enough power/transponder to move to 8PSK, while D12 may have the power to do LIL and 8PSK on CONUS simultaneously (if D12 didn't have more power, it would seem to make more sense to share LIL load between D10 and D12). IF that's true, then it would seem that an additional increase could be attained by a sixth Ka sat @ 99, since on the surface it seems to have the same limitation as D10 (doesn't appear to have significantly higher channel loading).
> 
> All just conjecture, of course.


But very interesting and insightful conjecture, still.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm just glad we have rocket scientists who can explain this stuff in terms we can all understand. 

This thread is highly educational, and has been since day one.

Thanks!


----------



## bobnielsen

DarinC said:


> It is my understanding that they are fixed, and can't be adjusted at all after the sat is launched. But it is _possible_ that D10 and D12 have different spot beam patterns. Just because one backs up the other doesn't mean they have to be exactly the same. Since the Spaceway 1 is _completely _configurable, It can "fill in" the holes differently if D12 is active than it does when D10 is active. So even though on the surface it would appear that D12 wouldn't increase LIL capacity, it's _possible _that they've worked up a configuration of spots between SW1 and D12 that's slightly more efficient than what they're using with SW1 and D10. It doesn't seem likely to me, as the DMAs haven't really changed, and you would think they would have thought everything out sufficiently with D10. But it's _possible_.


I'm still wondering if possibly they will still use some of the D10 spotbeams, as well. They could use different transponders on D10 and D12, both pointing to the same area, to increase the effective bandwidth. By optimizing the combination of SW1, D10 and D12, more LiLs might be possible than could be done with only SW1 and D10 (or SW1 and D12).


----------



## DarinC

bobnielsen said:


> They could use different transponders on D10 and D12, both pointing to the same area, to increase the effective bandwidth.


Perhaps, and they might need to if the number of HD channels in local DMAs increased beyond their initial plan. But doing so would most likely require using more frequencies than they currently are for LIL, which would likely reduce the potential bandwidth avaialable for nationals.


----------



## evan_s

DarinC said:


> Perhaps, and they might need to if the number of HD channels in local DMAs increased beyond their initial plan. But doing so would most likely require using more frequencies than they currently are for LIL, which would likely reduce the potential bandwidth avaialable for nationals.


I don't think that is likely. They currently have 10 TPS reserved for spots which is twice what they use at 101 for all the spots it provides. Most people see lots of 0's in the 103s and 99s signal strength screens indicating the spot pattern isn't very tight. I have no problem believing that they will be able to use the combination of d10, d12 and Spaceway 1 to provide more spot beams for more locals than they are currently providing. Unfortunately I don't think anyone outside of directv has enough details to say specifically how other than they've got 10 ka lo tps for working out the spot patter between d10/d12 and 8tps worth of Ka hi left for Spaceway 1 to use in what ever method is most productive.

Off the top of my head but for reference. 
101 has 5 tps for spots and uses 2 sats d9 and d4s to provide spots. D9 has 42 spots, off hand no clue on d4s. 119 has 3 tps for spots and has 49 spots if memory serves. 10 tps for spots is a lot to work with for setting up the spot beam pattern.


----------



## LameLefty

Just an FYI for fellow sat-industry watchers: ILS had a successful launch of AsiaSat 5 this afternoon. The first two burns of the Briz-M are confirmed as having been successful.


----------



## Sixto

The technical details of the D12 CONUS and spots is now officially available:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=730514​There may be enough data in here to compare to D10.

The frequencies are the same as posted previously.

BTW, has launch date between 10/15-11/15, with "live" 1/31/2010.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Just an FYI for fellow sat-industry watchers: ILS had a successful launch of AsiaSat 5 this afternoon. The first two burns of the Briz-M are confirmed as having been successful.


If the updated filing (just posted) is accurate, then the timeline is consistent. AsiaSat5 goes today, then Nimiq 5 late September, and D12 right in the 10/15-11/15 window.

Filing has D12 construction complete 10/8/2009.


----------



## Sixto

Updated post#1 with the new launch date info.

It is consistent with the "completed in October" and "by end of year", just earlier then we guessed (which is always good!).

And all subject to change ...


----------



## LameLefty

Good stuff, Sixto. These documents are hitting the FCC public servers after I get out of my "search mode" during the day - glad to see you catching this stuff right away. :up:

Take a note of Page 15 - "Probability of Survival to End of Life" is given as 51% for the combined spacecraft bus/payload combination. I never noticed this field in the Schedule S before - kinda scary, huh? I guess that's the kind of thing that keeps our friends at Directv up at night.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Good stuff, Sixto. These documents are hitting the FCC public servers after I get out of my "search mode" during the day - glad to see you catching this stuff right away. :up:


good tag team ... you got the day shift and I got the night shift!

Yep, and interesting data indeed.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> If the updated filing (just posted) is accurate, then the timeline is consistent. AsiaSat5 goes today, then Nimiq 5 late September, and D12 right in the 10/15-11/15 window.


I'm very happy with my November 6 SWAG.


----------



## TANK

Great thread with lots of information, thanks for explaining everything for us non- rocket scientists .

I see this new sat will enable D* to add 80 national HD channels. What happens after those channels are assigned ? Is there another sat in the pipeline ?


----------



## LameLefty

TANK said:


> Great thread with lots of information, thanks for explaining everything for us non- rocket scientists .
> 
> I see this new sat will enable D* to add 80 national HD channels. What happens after those channels are assigned ? Is there another sat in the pipeline ?


Yeah. As noted in this thread about two weeks ago, the FCC has recently approved some older applications for the "reverse-band" (*) satellites, RB-1 through RB-4. However, they are at least 4 - 5 years out; construction contracts for the satellites haven't been let yet (and wont be for some time I'm sure).

(*) Reverse-band or BSS band is Ku, the same frequency band, generally, used for SD broadcasts, but in the portion of the frequencies used for uplinks. This makes it tricky to coordinate with existing DBS satellites, which is why the FCC has been studying it for over a decade before finally issuing approvals this summer. It's unclear if Directv (and Intelsat and Pegasus) will actually build all these new BSS sats that they've been authorized for in light of the technical issues, but it's worth noting that D12 will include an "RB-2A" payload to partially implement the BSS licenses they've been granted and, I'm sure, provide a lot of good working technical knowledge about how to use BSS more effectively in the future.


----------



## LameLefty

Hey Sixto, regarding that Schedule S -

Take a look at boxes S1 g. and h. ...

"Total Transponders: 139" 
Total Bandwidth: 5004 MHz" 

Now compare to D10's data from here
http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=406466

"Total Transponders: 24" 
"Total Bandwidth: 960 MHz"

Whoa. BIG differences. Typo? Or what?


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Hey Sixto, regarding that Schedule S -
> 
> Take a look at boxes S1 g. and h. ...
> 
> "Total Transponders: 139"
> Total Bandwidth: 5004 MHz"
> 
> Now compare to D10's data from here
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=406466
> 
> "Total Transponders: 24"
> "Total Bandwidth: 960 MHz"
> 
> Whoa. BIG differences. Typo? Or what?


Yep, saw that last night but hadn't tried to compare yet. Good nighttime reading ...


----------



## Indiana627

Sixto said:


> [*]D12 Local-in-Local (LiL):
> 
> 10 transponders (TP15-TP24) of spot beam bandwidth for MPEG4 HD LiL from 103°
> Supporting 49 spot beams
> Within the Ka-Lo (18600-18800 MHz) frequency range (same as D10)
> *[*]The spot beam bandwidth is for in-orbit redundancy or replacement for the spot beam capability of either D10 or D11 (if D12 were moved to 99°)*


Does this mean no new HD LIL will be added to D12 once it's operational? I hope I'm misunderstanding this as I'm in a market with no LIL service (not even SD) and am really pinning all my hopes for HD LIL on D12.


----------



## bobnielsen

Indiana627 said:


> Does this mean no new HD LIL will be added to D12 once it's operational? I hope I'm misunderstanding this as I'm in a market with no LIL service (not even SD) and am really pinning all my hopes for HD LIL on D12.


Not necessarily. I think they could assign the transponders to spotbeams differently than on D10 and pick up some additional coverage however there are limits to what can be done, since there are areas which none of the spotbeams will cover.


----------



## LameLefty

Indiana627 said:


> Does this mean no new HD LIL will be added to D12 once it's operational? I hope I'm misunderstanding this as I'm in a market with no LIL service (not even SD) and am really pinning all my hopes for HD LIL on D12.





bobnielsen said:


> Not necessarily. I think they could assign the transponders to spotbeams differently than on D10 and pick up some additional coverage however there are limits to what can be done, since there are areas which none of the spotbeams will cover.


And don't forget the Spaceways. They have been "unloaded" in favor of D10/11 over the last 8 - 10 months (especially Spaceway 2). Those phased-array transmitters can form spotbeams more or less at-will wherever they might be needed. Don't count out anything yet.


----------



## Indiana627

OK, I'll keep my fingers crossed. I don't really care which sat they come from, just as long as they make their way down to my dish, into my DVRs and onto my screen!

It's frustrating because the DMA an hour north of me (Syracuse, NY) and an hour south of me (Scranton, PA) both have HD LIL, but nothing here in Binghamton, NY. Plus I used to live in Buffalo, NY up until last summer, so we had HD LIL in there, so I know first hand how nice it is.


----------



## inkahauts

LameLefty said:


> Hey Sixto, regarding that Schedule S -
> 
> Take a look at boxes S1 g. and h. ...
> 
> "Total Transponders: 139"
> Total Bandwidth: 5004 MHz"
> 
> Now compare to D10's data from here
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=406466
> 
> "Total Transponders: 24"
> "Total Bandwidth: 960 MHz"
> 
> Whoa. BIG differences. Typo? Or what?


Well, we know that D10 has more than 24 transponders.. some are spotbeam.. Maybe the D12 one includes all the spotbeams and each of their bandwidth indivudally as well, and that's not included in the D10 numbers?

Otherwise, BSS with its 4 transponders is kind of a game changer, ya think?


----------



## doctor j

LameLefty said:


> Hey Sixto, regarding that Schedule S -
> 
> Take a look at boxes S1 g. and h. ...
> 
> "Total Transponders: 139"
> Total Bandwidth: 5004 MHz"
> 
> Now compare to D10's data from here
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=406466
> 
> "Total Transponders: 24"
> "Total Bandwidth: 960 MHz"
> 
> Whoa. BIG differences. Typo? Or what?


I can't work the FCC site well enough to search the S1 filing on D11.
Can sixto or lamelefty post link to D11 S1 filing and maybe SW1 & SW2 also to have the complete "Data Set" and compare all reports. ??

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> I can't work the FCC site well enough to search the S1 filing on D11.
> Can sixto or lamelefty post link to D11 S1 filing and maybe SW1 & SW2 also to have the complete "Data Set" and compare all reports. ??
> 
> Doctor j


D10 Schedule S (not sure if this is the latest):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=406466​
SW1:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=384401​
There's many updates to these filings but this is what was easy to find (so far) ...


----------



## LameLefty

Here's the D11 Schedule S:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=406465


----------



## bobnielsen

Indiana627 said:


> OK, I'll keep my fingers crossed. I don't really care which sat they come from, just as long as they make their way down to my dish, into my DVRs and onto my screen!
> 
> It's frustrating because the DMA an hour north of me (Syracuse, NY) and an hour south of me (Scranton, PA) both have HD LIL, but nothing here in Binghamton, NY. Plus I used to live in Buffalo, NY up until last summer, so we had HD LIL in there, so I know first hand how nice it is.


Out here in the West, you can go more than an hour in any direction and you are still in the same DMA


----------



## P Smith

P Smith said:


> I think I saw today [lunch time] how a b-747 with d-12 took off Moffett Field.
> If a crew will post picture in their blog as before I could compare pictures.


Seen latest news about Nimiq 5 at ILS site, I'm thinking I saw that sat did start moving out of CA.


----------



## Sixto

Nothing major here but is related to D12 today:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-174546​
For earth stations E090076(SES-MOD-INTR2009-03335) and E070027 (SES-MOD-INTR2009-03334).


----------



## Hoosier205

Alright, I've read a bit of this thread and I understand none of it. I'm going to ask a simple questions and I apologize in advance if it has been asked a hundred times before. I am a new customer with a 5LNB slimline (hooked up as 3LNB because I only need one receiver). I make that statement not even knowing what it means.

*Will anything have to be done to my dish in order for it to pick up this new satellite?*

I assume not because that would be an incredible pain to basically realign/modify every dish in the country. So, I know it is a silly question...but I was curious.


----------



## Sixto

As far as we know ... not yet seeing the stack plan ... any receiver that currently gets HD channels from D10, D11, SW1, and SW2 should be able to receive channels from D12 after a receiver firmware update.


----------



## Mertzen

bobnielsen said:


> Out here in the West, you can go more than an hour in any direction and you are still in the same DMA


Hey I drove over 3 hours and I'm still in the same spot. Oh wait, that something else :lol::lol:


----------



## carl6

Hoosier205 said:


> I am a new customer with a 5LNB slimline (hooked up as 3LNB because I only need one receiver). I make that statement not even knowing what it means.


Both the 3-LNB and 5-LNB versions of the Slimline dish receive the newer satellites that carry DirecTV's HD programming. Does not matter which you have in most cases (and it has nothing to do with how many receivers you have).


Hoosier205 said:


> *Will anything have to be done to my dish in order for it to pick up this new satellite?*


As Sixto noted, it is very likely that current HD setups will be able to get programming from D12 when it is placed in service. It really would not make sense for DirecTV to put up a (very expensive) satellite that would require new equipment to receive from it, so soon after having done just exactly that with the mpeg4 conversion.


----------



## evan_s

Sixto said:


> As far as we know ... not yet seeing the stack plan ... any receiver that currently gets HD channels from D10, D11, SW1, and SW2 should be able to receive channels from D12 after a receiver firmware update.


There is no reason at all that D12 would require a change in the stack plan. The stack plan already includes the entire 500mhz blocks of both right and left polarization from Ka Hi at 103. Granted most are getting little to no signal there from spaceway 2 because it's providing a limited number of spots but the space is already reserved so to speak.

I expect a firmware update may be needed to tell the receivers the new pattern for the transponders there since the conus transponders from d12 are a different size than what Spaceway 2 uses. It will also probably change the 103c signal strength page to include all the new tps and pretty much fill up the page.


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> There is no reason at all that D12 would require a change in the stack plan. The stack plan already includes the entire 500mhz blocks of both right and left polarization from Ka Hi at 103. Granted most are getting little to no signal there from spaceway 2 because it's providing a limited number of spots but the space is already reserved so to speak.
> 
> I expect a firmware update may be needed to tell the receivers the new pattern for the transponders there since the conus transponders from d12 are a different size than what Spaceway 2 uses. It will also probably change the 103c signal strength page to include all the new tps and pretty much fill up the page.


Yep, fully agree.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

evan_s said:


> I expect a firmware update may be needed to tell the receivers the new pattern for the transponders there since the conus transponders from d12 are a different size than what Spaceway 2 uses.


We may actually already have the proper firmware, but not know it. :lol:

*(It could just be inactive at this time)*

In any case, there is plenty of time to push out an update prior to D12 activation, if something more is needed.


----------



## Hoosier205

Sixto said:


> As far as we know ... not yet seeing the stack plan ... any receiver that currently gets HD channels from D10, D11, SW1, and SW2 should be able to receive channels from D12 after a receiver firmware update.





carl6 said:


> Both the 3-LNB and 5-LNB versions of the Slimline dish receive the newer satellites that carry DirecTV's HD programming. Does not matter which you have in most cases (and it has nothing to do with how many receivers you have).
> 
> As Sixto noted, it is very likely that current HD setups will be able to get programming from D12 when it is placed in service. It really would not make sense for DirecTV to put up a (very expensive) satellite that would require new equipment to receive from it, so soon after having done just exactly that with the mpeg4 conversion.





evan_s said:


> There is no reason at all that D12 would require a change in the stack plan. The stack plan already includes the entire 500mhz blocks of both right and left polarization from Ka Hi at 103. Granted most are getting little to no signal there from spaceway 2 because it's providing a limited number of spots but the space is already reserved so to speak.
> 
> I expect a firmware update may be needed to tell the receivers the new pattern for the transponders there since the conus transponders from d12 are a different size than what Spaceway 2 uses. It will also probably change the 103c signal strength page to include all the new tps and pretty much fill up the page.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> We may actually already have the proper firmware, but not know it. :lol:
> 
> *(It could just be inactive at this time)*
> 
> In any case, there is plenty of time to push out an update prior to D12 activation, if something more is needed.


Thank you all!


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## spear61

Sixto has a very nice thread going here. 

These are the complete spot contours for D12 operating at max power. Reception is probably good out to the white or pink contours ( low 50's dbw) when operating at max power.

But, normally the power will be dialed down to match the market.


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## Drew2k

spear61 said:


> Sixto has a very nice thread going here.
> 
> These are the complete spot contours for D12 operating at max power. Reception is probably good out to the white or pink contours ( low 50's dbw) when operating at max power.
> 
> But, normally the power will be dialed down to match the market.


Those pics are awesome - I don't think I've ever seen the spot beam coverage represented like this!


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## Sixto

spear61 said:


> Sixto has a very nice thread going here.
> 
> These are the complete spot contours for D12 operating at max power. Reception is probably good out to the white or pink contours ( low 50's dbw) when operating at max power.
> 
> But, normally the power will be dialed down to match the market.


Very nice! Looks like 48 spots. Thought there were 49. Outstanding work!


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## LameLefty

spear61 said:


> Sixto has a very nice thread going here.
> 
> These are the complete spot contours for D12 operating at max power. Reception is probably good out to the white or pink contours ( low 50's dbw) when operating at max power.
> 
> But, normally the power will be dialed down to match the market.


Great stuff. :up:

Don't know where you got the info, but we appreciate it!


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## P Smith

Seen similar maps generated by nelson61 at SG .


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## Gary Toma

spear61 said:


> ...these are the complete spot contours for D12 operating at max power. Reception is probably good out to the white or pink contours ( low 50's dbw) when operating at max power....


Spear61,
These are some of the best beam contour maps I have seen. Can you share your source? It would be great to have a standing set of accurate maps maintained here for all the sats!

Thanks!


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## Bob Coxner

spear61 said:


> Sixto has a very nice thread going here.
> 
> These are the complete spot contours for D12 operating at max power. Reception is probably good out to the white or pink contours ( low 50's dbw) when operating at max power.
> 
> But, normally the power will be dialed down to match the market.


The last image has the El Paso spotbeam apparently centered on the Big Bend. I highly doubt that.  The pattern for Juneau in that same image is also interesting.


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## Alan Gordon

spear61 said:


> These are the complete spot contours for D12 operating at max power. Reception is probably good out to the white or pink contours ( low 50's dbw) when operating at max power.
> 
> But, normally the power will be dialed down to match the market.


WOW! You can really appreciate the intricacies of providing spot-beam coverage to Hawaii!

~Alan<~~~~~~~Who probably won't be receiving HD-LIL off of D12, but may receive it from another satellite after a neighboring market's locals are transferred to D12....


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## Sixto

I figured the spot map was created by taking some info from the FCC doc and entering it into a map program, but now not so sure. Haven't yet found any data that matches.


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## spear61

Sixto said:


> Very nice! Looks like 48 spots. Thought there were 49. Outstanding work!


Clicked too fast and missed adding one on the A1 series. Sorry about that. Should be 49 total (does not include RB spots).


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## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> ~Alan<~~~~~~~Who probably won't be receiving HD-LIL off of D12, but may receive it from another satellite after a neighboring market's locals are transferred to D12....





spear61 said:


> Clicked too fast and missed adding one on the A1 series. Sorry about that. Should be 49 total (does not include RB spots).


Spoke too soon! Still possible given that map...

~Alan


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## Sixto

Good to see they paid! 


Code:


Date Filed:  08/07/2009
Callsign:    S2797 (D12)
Status Date: 08/24/2009
Status:      [B]Filed - payment received[/B]


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## RAD

Sixto said:


> Good to see they paid!
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Date Filed:  08/07/2009
> Callsign:    S2797 (D12)
> Status Date: 08/24/2009
> Status:      [B]Filed - payment received[/B]


Now lets hope the check clears


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## MikeR7

I would guess they used EFT. :lol:


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## smiddy

MikeR7 said:


> I would guess they used EFT. :lol:


Yeah, something like that.


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## Ernie

MikeR7 said:


> I would guess they used EFT. :lol:


That's how I paid my vanity license fee.

Ernie/NE6D


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## Sixto

Very interesting that Eutelsat just announced today the new launch of W7 for "mid-November" via Proton-M/Briz-M (same as D12).http://www.eutelsat.com/news/compress/en/2009/html/PR 4409 W7 SATELLITE/PR 4409 W7 SATELLITE.html​With Nimiq 5 launching "9/17/2009", and D12 announced as "October 15 to November 14", this is now interesting.

D12 will need to be somewhere in the middle of the two (mid-to-late October), or delayed. 30 days between launches is doable, but has not been the recent usual timing.

Recent Proton-M/Briz-M launches: 2/11, 4/3, 5/16, 6/30, 8/11, 9/17 (scheduled).

We'll see ...


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## dwrats_56

The ILS home page show the Nimiq 5 as the current mission.

http://www.ilslaunch.com/

Doesn't look good for D12 to go in October.


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## Sixto

dwrats_56 said:


> The ILS home page show the Nimiq 5 as the current mission.
> 
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/
> 
> Doesn't look good for D12 to go in October.


Nimiq5 is 9/17. EutelSat is mid-November. D12 could be in-between.


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## dwrats_56

Sixto said:


> Nimiq5 is 9/17. EutelSat is mid-November. D12 could be in-between.


Your right, I had a brain cramp.

I don't see D12 on the couple of schedules I checked out.

Boeing's site just says 2009.

I don't see it on Gunther's site either.

http://space.skyrocket.de/index_frame.htm?http://www.skyrocket.de/space/doc_sat/hs-702.htm

I need to not be so quick to post..:blush:


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## Shades228

I'm betting a Halloween launch.


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## TheRatPatrol

So its October now? I thought it was December? They moved it up?


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## RobertE

Sixto said:


> Nimiq5 is 9/17. EutelSat is mid-November. D12 could be in-between.


I wonder if some $$$ changed hands for swapping slots.


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## Sixto

RobertE said:


> I wonder if some $$$ changed hands for swapping slots.


Yes, was thinking the same. A few $ to move up. We'll see.


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## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> So its October now? I thought it was December? They moved it up?


Rumors were December. FCC Filing said 10/15-to-11/14. With today's Eutelsat news, could be before or after W7.


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## kevinwmsn

I hope D12 gets a successful launch in October of this year.


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## harsh

If Boeing doesn't ship in the next two weeks, October (and probably November) is out of the question.


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## amorse2183

if this has been asked in this thread already I sincerely apologize, but seeing as it's quite long I thought I would ask. When this is launched what does it mean for me? What is the benefit? Will this bring more channels? Is it just for the potential of someday having more channels offered from D* but no immediate change? Is this just for better reception?


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## TheRatPatrol

amorse2183 said:


> if this has been asked in this thread already I sincerely apologize, but seeing as it's quite long I thought I would ask. When this is launched what does it mean for me? What is the benefit? Will this bring more channels? Is it just for the potential of someday having more channels offered from D* but no immediate change? Is this just for better reception?


It will give D* the ability to offer more national HD channels.


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## harsh

There have been NO recent promises regarding new content that depend on D12.

Long-term, D12 taking over some responsibilities from D10 may extend the older satellite's life.

D12 will not improve overall reception. Some spotbeams may better cover their target markets. If you're having problems, consider having your dish tweaked.


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## Scott Corbett

TheRatPatrol said:


> It will give D* the ability to offer more national HD channels.


Wasn't D11 supposed to give the capability of 150 national HD channels? 
But D* is nowhere near that.


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## Sixto

Scott Corbett said:


> Wasn't D11 supposed to give the capability of 150 national HD channels?
> But D* is nowhere near that.


With current PQ and the current selected encoding techniques, D10 and D11 provide 5 HD channels per transponder, and each has 14 transponders dedicated to CONUS/national coverage. D10 originally (temporarily) had 16, until D11 was deployed. D12 is expect to have 16 national transponders.


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## oldfantom

Scott Corbett said:


> Wasn't D11 supposed to give the capability of 150 national HD channels?
> But D* is nowhere near that.


It depends a little on how/what you count as to the "up to" 150 national channels. But the phrase "up to" and the number 150 seem to start a lot of flame wars in this forum.

As to Harsh's comment about the recent promises, D* stated that they would be launching a fairly large number of channels in 2010. I don't think it is unusual or suspicious that they have said nothing since. Although there is some argument as to the amount of space that is or is not left and the worth of certain channels over others, it seems that we should not expect to get any new HD roll out of any great significance until the new SAT is up. If they wanted to use the space they have, they probably would have lit up ESPNU for football season.

Harsh did make a good point that we won't get a launch until after the bird is shipped. I feel pretty good about making that a definite statement. We need to send Tom back to take a "tour" of the facilities to see if the bird is still in construction phase or if it is in its crate, or somewhere in between.

In the "for what's worth" category, it seems too quiet for the second week of September if we are thinking anything can/will happen prior to November.


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## RobertE

harsh said:


> There have been NO recent promises regarding new content that depend on D12.
> 
> Long-term, D12 taking over some responsibilities from D10 may extend the older satellite's life.
> 
> D12 will not improve overall reception. Some spotbeams may better cover their target markets. If you're having problems, consider having your dish tweaked.


If you believe for one nano-second that DirecTv is launching that satellite just for the hell of it, not using it for more national HD channels, I have a few bridges in New York I'd like to see you.

Enough with the negitive speculation already.


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## dcowboy7

Scott Corbett said:


> Wasn't D11 supposed to give the capability of 150 national HD channels?
> But D* is nowhere near that.


No they werent supposed to....it was "up to 150".


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## Hutchinshouse

dcowboy7 said:


> No they werent supposed to....it was "up to 150".


:soapbox:
The "up to" is mumbo-jumbo. As if DIRECTV doesn't know the capacity of their sats. The "150" is key, not the "up to". If the "up to" is the definitive factor, why didn't they say up to 160 or 170 etc. There's room for more national HD, they're simply not adding it.

Bring on D12 :goodjob:


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## Sixto

This should all be very simple.

D10 currently has 14 national transponders. At 5 per, that's 70. All used. 100%. (Was 16/80 for a short time prior to D11).

D11 currently has 14 national transponders. At 5 per, that's 70. Most used today. 90%+.

This Sunday (9/13), we'll get a good view of how full D11 is. We'll have NFL Sunday Ticket (12 games: 704-715) plus the usual part-time HD channel needs, almost the maximum HD bandwidth needed. The following Sunday (9/20) should be the 2009 maximum (14 games: 704-717), with 2 additional NFL channels needed. 1/3/2010 will have 15 games. Very interested in the HD allocation mid-Sunday afternoon.

In 2010, D12 will have an additional 16 national transponders, for another 80 HD channels (assuming current PQ and encoding).

In the past, 101°, 110°, and 119° have also provided HD bandwidth, but a business decision has been made (for now) to consolidate all HD to D10/D11, soon to be D10/D11/D12, with 6 MPEG2 HD channels still to be turned off on 110°/119°.

Edit: Needed to exclude Sunday Night Football (NBC).


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## dcowboy7

Sixto said:


> This Sunday (9/13), we'll get a good view of how full D11 is. We'll have NFL Sunday Ticket (*13* games).
> 
> The following Sunday (9/20) should be the 2009 maximum (*15* games), with 2 additional NFL channels needed.
> 
> 1/3/2010 will have *16 *games.


This sunday = 12 games.
The following sunday = 14 games.
1/3/10 = 15 games....a game will move to 8:20 SNF.


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## Sixto

dcowboy7 said:


> This sunday = 12 games.
> The following sunday = 14 games.
> 1/3/10 = 15 games....a game will move to 8:20 SNF.


Yep, should have excluded the NBC Sunday night game. Sunday 9/20 will be a good view of max.


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## LameLefty

harsh said:


> If Boeing doesn't ship in the next two weeks, October (and probably November) is out of the question.


So being a Dish customer and only knowing Directv hardware because there are some receivers where you work makes you an expert in satellite construction, FCC regulatory processes and GSO launch operations now? Please. Do you really want me to dig up some of your similarly incorrect assertions about D10 from two years ago?

You should really just stick to what you actually, you know, _know_.


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## David MacLeod

LameLefty said:


> You should really just stick to what you actually, you know, _know_.


would be a short conversation then...


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## oldfantom

LameLefty said:


> So being a Dish customer and only knowing Directv hardware because there are some receivers where you work makes you an expert in satellite construction, FCC regulatory processes and GSO launch operations now? Please. Do you really want me to dig up some of your similarly incorrect assertions about D10 from two years ago?
> 
> You should really just stick to what you actually, you know, _know_.


In post 939, you said "There's usually 3 - 4 weeks' lead time from delivery of the encapsulated satellite to the launch facility for integration with the booster."

So harsh is being a little melodramatic with the Nov thing, but if the bird is still in the states, then October is under pressure. I will feel much better when we have confirmation that the thing has been shipped. At that point, there will be less of a speculative "here's a window, there's a window" discussion. I would think they will not ship without a slot. This speaks to my knowledge of all that stuff you mention, above - You can't launch a satellite unless the satellite is at the launch site.


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## doctor j

Reading the last several ILS launch blogs, although they have capacity to process multiple launches, the sat usually arrives soon after the sucessful prior launch.
Nimiq 5 is scheduled for 9/17.
I'd expect D-12 to ship shortly after that if all is OK.

Doctor j


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## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Reading the last several ILS launch blogs, although they have capacity to process multiple launches, the sat usually arrives soon after the sucessful prior launch.
> Nimiq 5 is scheduled for 9/17.
> I'd expect D-12 to ship shortly after that if all is OK.
> 
> Doctor j


The FCC Filing lists the D12 Construction Completion Date as 10/8/2009:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=730514​While it's certainly possible for D12 to launch between Nimiq 5 on 9/17/2009 and W7 in mid-November, I'm just getting a vibe that it may be after W7, but we'll see, especially if some $ changed hands to get W7 to the head of the line. That W7 press release the other day sounded urgent.

2008/2009 launches and guesswork:


Code:


01/28/2008
02/11/2008 +14
03/14/2008 +32
08/18/2008 
09/19/2008 +32
11/05/2008 +47
12/10/2008 +35
02/11/2009 +62
04/03/2009 +51
05/16/2009 +43
06/30/2009 +45
08/11/2009 +42
09/17/2009 +38 (Nimiq 5 scheduled)
10/17/2009 +30 (D12?)
11/16/2009 +30 (W7?)


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## Tom Robertson

DIRECTV will be the first to launch a BSS satellite into the US! DIRECTV 12 and RB-2A are the same hybrid satellite and filings have been posted at the FCC.

But let us continue discussion at the new thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2210347

Cheers,
Tom


----------

