# HDMI cables



## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

The new HR24 comes with an HDMI cable, V1.3. How does this "free" HDMI cable compare to expensive ones from the likes of Monster Cable, etc.?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

:lol: Monster is a rip off. The included cable is fine.


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## Matt9876 (Oct 11, 2007)

sigma1914 said:


> :lol: Monster is a rip off. The included cable is fine.


+1


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## SParker (Apr 27, 2002)

Monoprice is also good. Don't waste your money on Monster ripoff cable. Digital is digital, you either get it or you don't.


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

SParker said:


> Monoprice is also good. Don't waste your money on Monster ripoff cable. Digital is digital, you either get it or you don't.


I get all of mine from monoprice.


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## dwrats_56 (Apr 21, 2007)

Remember HDMI is a standard. So, if the cable meets the standard, you are good go. The rest of your choice is how much money you want to waste.

Monoprice has been very good to me.


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## Big Dave 09 (Oct 8, 2009)

dwrats_56 said:


> Remember HDMI is a standard. So, if the cable meets the standard, you are good go. The rest of your choice is how much money you want to waste.
> 
> Monoprice has been very good to me.


even Ebay has better deals on HDMI---good cables for under $5 or up to $20....check them out too if you need more.


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## 66stang351 (Aug 10, 2006)

Heck I ordered something from Overstock the other day and my receipt email had an ad for a two pack of 10'HDMI cables for $5.99. Like has already been stated, digital cables are digital cables...then you pay an extra hundred bucks to have the Monster name if you want.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

I bought sevral 6' HDMI cables from Monoprice when I first ordered up my HR20 and my first HDTV a few years back.

The Monoprice cables were under $10 at that time. The seller of the TV threw in some free stuff with the TV including a 6' HDMI cable with a retail value of $50.

THe "$50" cable was identical to the monoprice cable right down to the numbers stamped on the bag.

Monoprice is the only place to buy cables.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

SParker said:


> .....Digital is digital, you either get it or you don't.


Yeah, you don't see people running out and buying $100 USB cables. :lol:


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## -Draino- (May 19, 2008)

HarleyD said:


> I bought sevral 6' HDMI cables from Monoprice when I first ordered up my HR20 and my first HDTV a few years back.
> 
> The Monoprice cables were under $10 at that time. The seller of the TV threw in some free stuff with the TV including a 6' HDMI cable with a retail value of $50.
> 
> ...


Firefold has great prices and very nice cables as well.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Going back the original question, I have used the DIRECTV-supplied HDMI cables quite happily for years.


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## rayik (Mar 30, 2009)

For hdmi cable deals check slickdeals.net. Every now and then there will be a post on hdmi cable deals. Last one I bought was 3 six foot hdmi cables for $6 (including shipping). All 3 worked fine.


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## Laker44 (Jun 18, 2008)

How often should you replace HDMI cables? I have been using the same ones for 2 1/2 years was wondering if I should replace them.


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## ptuck874 (Aug 12, 2007)

Laker44 said:


> How often should you replace HDMI cables? I have been using the same ones for 2 1/2 years was wondering if I should replace them.


as far as I know, when it goes it replace them, I haven't replaced any of mine at all unless a dog or something chews it up


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Just like changing your oil in your car, change your cables every 6 months or 3000 hours of viewing!!










Just kidding. . . .electrons only move on the cable, they don't degrade them.


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

To those who suggested Monoprice and whatever else to buy from, I have the free HDMI cables from DTV and why would I want to buy an HDMI cable if what you all say is true regarding it doesn't matter?

I do have a Monster Cable HDMI that was included in my TV purchase a few years ago, but I don't feel like switching back and forth to find out if there is a difference. I do wonder if there is any difference with regard to shielding, if that matters?


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Cavicchi said:


> To those who suggested Monoprice and whatever else to buy from, I have the free HDMI cables from DTV and why would I want to buy an HDMI cable if what you all say is true regarding it doesn't matter?
> 
> I do have a Monster Cable HDMI that was included in my TV purchase a few years ago, but I don't feel like switching back and forth to find out if there is a difference. *I do wonder if there is any difference with regard to shielding, if that matters?*


Makes no difference. As has been said, the signal is digital.


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## 66stang351 (Aug 10, 2006)

Cavicchi said:


> To those who suggested Monoprice and whatever else to buy from, I have the free HDMI cables from DTV and why would I want to buy an HDMI cable if what you all say is true regarding it doesn't matter?
> 
> I do have a Monster Cable HDMI that was included in my TV purchase a few years ago, but I don't feel like switching back and forth to find out if there is a difference. I do wonder if there is any difference with regard to shielding, if that matters?


I think the reason why is because everyone wants to make sure you know where to go if in the future you need more cables..don't want you going to pick up a cable for your new BluRay player or something and getting fleeced by Monster. for the most part I have used the cables that came with my DIRECTV equipment...there have been some that didn't have a cable. For everything that I have that didn't come with a cable I got cables from Monoprice.


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

I have 3 free HDMI cables that came with 2 HR24 and 1 H24, so I have enough for now.


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## Avder (Feb 6, 2010)

As many people here have stated, "Monster" cables are a complete ripoff. An HDMI cable is an HDMI cable, and so long as that cable meets the specifications as far as wire guage, maximum length, twists per foot, etc, it will behave like it should and will not give you any performance difference between those overpriced monsters.

What monster cables represent are marketing hype and maybe going very slightly beyond the spec. They may afford you better performance in extreme circumstances (such as going beyond the standards spec length), but even then there are cheaper solutions such as bridging two cables with an HDMI repeating device. The marketing gurus want you to think their cables are better by using buzz words and larger numbers that bear very little impact on actual performance. And in reality there is no such difference between an analog cable and a digital cable so long as its made of metal. Both are predominantly made of copper and act as a path for electrons which make up both analog and digital signals.

Now, if you are comparing a metal cable to fiber optic, you could call one a digital cable, since I cant think of many ways you could get an analog signal over a fiber optic cable. But HDMI doesnt get transmitted over fiber optic.

There are a few cases where one type of cable can legitimately be different than another kind. This is expecially true with the RG-6 Coax that runs from your multiswitch to your reciever. The kind that DirecTV uses is multi-shielded with a pure copper core. Most of the RG-6 sold in stores is only single or double shielded with a core that is only partially made of copper, having steel covering it to reduce production costs. Copper clad steel does have a noticeable performance difference over long runs and at frequencies in use on DirecTV systems.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Cavicchi said:


> To those who suggested Monoprice and whatever else to buy from, I have the free HDMI cables from DTV and why would I want to buy an HDMI cable if what you all say is true regarding it doesn't matter?
> 
> I do have a Monster Cable HDMI that was included in my TV purchase a few years ago, but I don't feel like switching back and forth to find out if there is a difference. I do wonder if there is any difference with regard to shielding, if that matters?


Shielding can make a difference, but not in a normal home environment, with the lengths you're dealing with. If the supplied cable is long enough, it's all you need and they never need replaced unless the cable gets damaged by something.

I realized the Monster ripoff when I tried to get delivery for free straight up, it was "free with mail-in rebate." I really hate mail-in rebates. They wouldn't budge on that, but threw in a free Monster Cable. That said something right there.


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## Dazed & Confused (Jun 13, 2007)

hilmar2k said:


> Makes no difference. As has been said, the signal is digital.


That is not entirely true. Cheapers cables can experience signal leak. I use the supplied cables, and was having reception problems recently. When I looked behind the TV, there was a significant pile of 1's & 0's that were leaking from the HDMI cable. I'm pretty sure that never would have happened with a $100 Monster cable.:sure:


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Dazed & Confused said:


> That is not entirely true. Cheapers cables can experience signal leak. I use the supplied cables, and was having reception problems recently. When I looked behind the TV, there was a significant pile of 1's & 0's that were leaking from the HDMI cable. I'm pretty sure that never would have happened with a $100 Monster cable.:sure:


!rolling


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

Avder said:


> There are a few cases where one type of cable can legitimately be different than another kind. This is expecially true with the RG-6 Coax that runs from your multiswitch to your reciever. The kind that DirecTV uses is multi-shielded with a pure copper core. Most of the RG-6 sold in stores is only single or double shielded with a core that is only partially made of copper, having steel covering it to reduce production costs. Copper clad steel does have a noticeable performance difference over long runs and at frequencies in use on DirecTV systems.


This brings up another question for me, the installer used cables installed a year ago by my local cable company to run from splitter outside house straight to receivers--is that all right? I have 2 HR24 and 1 H24 and SWiM installation. The question being is if it's all right to use those cables from my cable company?


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Cavicchi said:


> This brings up another question for me, the installer used cables installed a year ago by my local cable company to run from splitter outside house straight to receivers--is that all right? I have 2 HR24 and 1 H24 and SWiM installation. The question being is if it's all right to use those cables from my cable company?


You should be fine.


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## bigbrother52 (Jan 20, 2008)

hilmar2k said:


> Yeah, you don't see people running out and buying $100 USB cables. :lol:


That's not true at all.

Just about every manufacturer of high-end or 'exotic' cables makes them and someone buys em, just Google it.
I'm sure they're not for everyone, though they do exist.

EDIT: I should have said, so the market for them does exist!


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

bigbrother52 said:


> That's not true at all.
> 
> Just about every manufacturer of high-end or 'exotic' cables makes them and someone buys em, just Google it.
> I'm sure they're not for everyone, though they do exist.
> ...


The market (and the cable) may exist, but I hardly say that proves that poeple are "running out to buy them". 

My point is that 99.9% of the people overpaying for HDMI cables are buying the least expensive USB cable they can find.


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## jtbell (Nov 24, 2008)

I've been a Monster Cable customer for years, and IMO their speaker cables and power centers are well worth the $$$. 

That being said, HDMI is quite the different beast. As long as all of your 1's and 0's get where they are going, you will be fine. The only reason to upgrade would be an extremely long HDMI run, which most of us do not do. As a loyal Monster customer, I would advise getting a nice HDMI cable from Monoprice, and using the extra $$$ on something you can actually perceive the difference on.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

jtbell said:


> I've been a Monster Cable customer for years, and IMO their speaker cables and power centers are well worth the $$$.
> 
> That being said, HDMI is quite the different beast. As long as all of your 1's and 0's get where they are going, you will be fine. The only reason to upgrade would be an extremely long HDMI run, which most of us do not do. As a loyal Monster customer, I would advise getting a nice HDMI cable from Monoprice, and using the extra $$$ on something you can actually perceive the difference on.


I use their speaker wire too and it is good.


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## djwww98 (Jan 12, 2006)

jtbell said:


> I've been a Monster Cable customer for years, and IMO their speaker cables and power centers are well worth the $$$.


:lol::lol::lol::lol:
The reason Monster exists and is still in business is the same reason email scamers still exist in Nigeria... there are just enough ignorant people in the world that will buy what they're selling to keep them in business. For the price of one of their "power centers" which is nothing more than a surge protector, you could buy a good quality voltage regulating UPS.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

joed32 said:


> I use their speaker wire too and it is good.


Of course lamp cord from Home Depot will do *exactly* the same thing, with no discernable difference in sound quality (as has been proven in test after test).

But hey, if having the name brand speaker wire makes you think it sounds better, then have at it.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Laker44 said:


> How often should you replace HDMI cables? I have been using the same ones for 2 1/2 years was wondering if I should replace them.


You should replace them when the round cable grows to about twice it's original diameter. That means that the bit pipes inside the cable are starting to get clogged up and the bits are starting to back up and push out sideways on the cable. Unless you see that happening, the only other reason to replace an HDMI cable is if you get no picture at all with the HDMI connection.


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## johns70 (May 2, 2010)

Don't blow your money on the MONSTER surge protectors or power conditioners either.


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## jtbell (Nov 24, 2008)

djwww98 said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> The reason Monster exists and is still in business is the same reason email scamers still exist in Nigeria... there are just enough ignorant people in the world that will buy what they're selling to keep them in business. For the price of one of their "power centers" which is nothing more than a surge protector, you could buy a good quality voltage regulating UPS.


Maybe you could be a little ruder next time? :nono:


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## mobandit (Sep 4, 2007)

hilmar2k said:


> Of course lamp cord from Home Depot will do *exactly* the same thing, with no discernable difference in sound quality (as has been proven in test after test).
> 
> But hey, if having the name brand speaker wire makes you think it sounds better, then have at it.


Lamp cord is fine for a short run (8-10 feet). If making longer runs of speaker cable than lamp cord may not be what you should run. Using too small a gauge of wire (lamp cord, speaker wire, etc.) will have a deleterious effect on the signal reaching the speakers, and may cause you to blow an amplifier. Longer distances of small gauge wire can reach some significant resistance values...


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

I was surprised that when my HR24-500s were installed on Wed, they did not come with HDMI cables. The units came in some brown DirecTV box. I guess it wasn't the retail box. There were no cables- only a power cord. In one spot I used my existing cable, which probably was a monoprice cable. In the other spot, the tech gave me a cable he had on his truck.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

mobandit said:


> Lamp cord is fine for a short run (8-10 feet). If making longer runs of speaker cable than lamp cord may not be what you should run. Using too small a gauge of wire (lamp cord, speaker wire, etc.) will have a deleterious effect on the signal reaching the speakers, and may cause you to blow an amplifier. Longer distances of small gauge wire can reach some significant resistance values...


That's true. It's all about guage. Longer runs will certainly want larger guage wire than lamp cord.

My point was that wire of the same guage will yield identical performance, regardless of price.


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## Steve Robertson (Jun 7, 2005)

mikeny said:


> I was surprised that when my HR24-500s were installed on Wed, they did not come with HDMI cables. The units came in some brown DirecTV box. I guess it wasn't the retail box. There were no cables- only a power cord. In one spot I used my existing cable, which probably was a monoprice cable. In the other spot, the tech gave me a cable he had on his truck.


I just got one yesterday and it had all kinds of cables that I don't need


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## Piratefan98 (Mar 11, 2008)

Does Monster make fishing line? We're going on Saturday, and I want the very best!!


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

jtbell said:


> Maybe you could be a little ruder next time? :nono:


There's the combined intelligence of a partly trained ape here. Hence the need for sarcasum and rudeness used towards anyone who likes Monster Cable.


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## dontknow (Apr 29, 2010)

mikeny said:


> I was surprised that when my HR24-500s were installed on Wed, they did not come with HDMI cables. The units came in some brown DirecTV box. I guess it wasn't the retail box. There were no cables- only a power cord. In one spot I used my existing cable, which probably was a monoprice cable. In the other spot, the tech gave me a cable he had on his truck.


when i got a new H23-600 installed a couple of months ago, it came in a brown box as well with no hdmi cable, tech was replacing a bad box i had, before he got there i had disconnected the bad box with the hdmi i had connected to it, when he was installing the new box, he saw that i didnt have an hdmi cable and had to go to his truck to get one. 
Never told him about the other cord, because he didnt ask if i had one, so now i have a spare


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

For the very best picture, with no bit leakage, you must use THIS cable. A little duct tape might also help stop bit leakage.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

dontknow said:


> when i got a new H23-600 installed a couple of months ago, it came in a brown box as well with no hdmi cable, tech was replacing a bad box i had, before he got there i had disconnected the bad box with the hdmi i had connected to it, when he was installing the new box, he saw that i didnt have an hdmi cable and had to go to his truck to get one.
> Never told him about the other cord, because he didnt ask if i had one, so now i have a spare


Touche


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

There are a bunch of articles, tests, and comparisons on the web about this very subject. With a bit of searching with your favorite search engine you’ll learn that unless you talking about 10+ meters where shielding and inter-pair skew come into play, there is no use paying more then $10 for an HDMI cable. 

AAMOF, I use the free ones that came with my hardware, and I bought ten six foot cables for $32.40 total cost, three of which I am currently using, and have never had a problem.

The fact is there is a huge markup on cables in general. Higher price is not always higher quality. 

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

djwww98 said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol:
> The reason Monster exists and is still in business is the same reason email scamers still exist in Nigeria... there are just enough ignorant people in the world that will buy what they're selling to keep them in business. For the price of one of their "power centers" which is nothing more than a surge protector, you could buy a good quality voltage regulating UPS.


That's not very fair at all. There are plenty of people who would never be taken in by spam email, but when the sales person starts in on specs, standards, and "picture quality" it's very easy to get the non-tech savvy person to pay an extra eighty or hundred dollars onto a bill that's already over a grand; maybe pushing two.

Then they tell the friends who don't know any more on the subject than they do and the friend says something like "yeah, ya gotta make sure you got the right spec cable" because he read it in a Monster or Rocketfish ad. :shrug:

Tech talk loses a lot of people, and they usually go along, but not because they're easily scamed.

Mike


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## djwww98 (Jan 12, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> That's not very fair at all.


Life ain't fair. There's scammers and there's victims of scammers. Monster cable is a SCAM. That's a fact. Do a little research. Or just believe the above posters. If I hurt someones feelings, well.. I don't care.
They started with the speaker wire scam. Lamp cord for a buck a foot works as good as anything. If you need larger gauge for a longer run, pay a buck and a half a foot. If you need it shielded; a couple bucks a foot.
USB cable is no different than HDMI... it just conveys digital info. While a USB cable goes for a few dollars, as it should, Monster scams people out of a $120 for a 1 meter HDMI cable. I'm telling you it's a total waste of money. If people don't want to hear the truth, then all I can do is shake my head and wonder at the ignorance and/or gullability of the human race.
And don't get your panties in a wad over the word "ignorant". It just means lack of information.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

djwww98 said:


> Life ain't fair. There's scammers and there's victims of scammers. Monster cable is a SCAM. That's a fact. Do a little research. Or just believe the above posters. If I hurt someones feelings, well.. I don't care.
> They started with the speaker wire scam. Lamp cord for a buck a foot works as good as anything. If you need larger gauge for a longer run, pay a buck and a half a foot. If you need it shielded; a couple bucks a foot.
> USB cable is no different than HDMI... it just conveys digital info. While a USB cable goes for a few dollars, as it should, Monster scams people out of a $120 for a 1 meter HDMI cable. I'm telling you it's a total waste of money. If people don't want to hear the truth, then all I can do is shake my head and wonder at the ignorance and/or gullability of the human race.
> And don't get your panties in a wad over the word "ignorant". It just means lack of information.


Dude, did you read my post two above your's, because I said the same thing you did.

Mike


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## djwww98 (Jan 12, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Dude, did you read my post two above your's, because I said the same thing you did.
> 
> Mike


Yes, my response to you was regarding your judgement that my statement "was not fair". Thus, that was the only part I quoted. The rest of my post was a response to anyone who tries to justify Monster's existence.


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

Well, all I can say is from my experience with high-end speakers, I did hear a difference between speaker wires, and my son also heard the difference. All this goes back some years, but I do remember we were surprised at the difference in the bass and high frequencies.


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## jtbell (Nov 24, 2008)

djwww98 said:


> Life ain't fair. There's scammers and there's victims of scammers. Monster cable is a SCAM. That's a fact. Do a little research. Or just believe the above posters. If I hurt someones feelings, well.. I don't care.
> They started with the speaker wire scam. Lamp cord for a buck a foot works as good as anything. If you need larger gauge for a longer run, pay a buck and a half a foot. If you need it shielded; a couple bucks a foot.
> USB cable is no different than HDMI... it just conveys digital info. While a USB cable goes for a few dollars, as it should, Monster scams people out of a $120 for a 1 meter HDMI cable. I'm telling you it's a total waste of money. If people don't want to hear the truth, then all I can do is shake my head and wonder at the ignorance and/or gullability of the human race.
> And don't get your panties in a wad over the word "ignorant". It just means lack of information.


*Porche, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GMC, Dodge * --- By your definition, all SCAMS, because you could just as easily buy a $500 beater car. If you drive anything other than the most stripped down car possible that can get you from point A to point B, you must be ignorant or gullible.

*DirectTV, Dish, Cable *--- By your definition, SCAMS, because you can get TV for free off the air. If you have any of these services, you must be ignorant or gullible.

*Brick Homes* --- By your definition SCAMS, because you can get a perfectly good mobile home for less. Brick home owners must be ignorant or gullible.

*HDTV's* --- Again, huge SCAMS. The good stuff is in the middle of the screen anyway. HDTV owners are just downright fools. Have you seen the price of Standard Def TV's lately?

*Surround-Sound Systems* --- SCAM! Come on you knuckleheads!!! Your TV has perfectly good speakers, quite capable of reproducing 90% of the audible signals.

The bottom line for me is that I am fortunate enough to be in a financial position where an extra couple hundred bucks prorated over the life of my very high end A/V system just isn't a big deal.

I'm happy with my system, and frankly don't give the south end of a north-bound rat what you think.

Trust me, you would trade systems with me in a heartbeat; "ignorant wires" and all.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

jtbell said:


> Trust me, you would trade systems with me in a heartbeat; "ignorant wires" and all.


Trust me...we can trade cables and see no difference.


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

I ordered a 15+ FT HDMI from Amazon. Generic cable. Works fine. Cable is cable. Mine cost $10


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## Piratefan98 (Mar 11, 2008)

sigma1914 said:


> Trust me...we can trade cables and see no difference.


Yup. I think some people feel duped about wasting money, and then need to try and defend their position with various rantings and ravings. Human nature mostly. Nobody _wants _to be a sucker.

Jeff


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

hilmar2k said:


> Of course lamp cord from Home Depot will do *exactly* the same thing, with no discernable difference in sound quality (as has been proven in test after test).


Back in '77, when I heard a difference between the fourteen gauge speaker wire I was then using and Polk Audio's Cobra Cable, I became a believer. Since then, I have heard many different speaker wires and interconnects that sound different. If you've never heard the difference in the sound of cables yourself, don't dismiss it. It does exist.

That said, I have found three things to be true:

(1) Better connectors cause a more significant improvement in sound than better wire does. 
(2) The price of cables often has nothing to do with how good they sound. 
(3) You have to recognise that "different" is not necessarily "better". That's another issue.

Personally, I recommend Blue Jeans Cable. They are both good sounding and very well built for not a lot of money. I also use a lot of cheap-ass cables all over my house. It is a real world, after all.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

jtbell said:


> *Porche, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GMC, Dodge * --- By your definition, all SCAMS, because you could just as easily buy a $500 beater car. If you drive anything other than the most stripped down car possible that can get you from point A to point B, you must be ignorant or gullible.
> 
> *DirectTV, Dish, Cable *--- By your definition, SCAMS, because you can get TV for free off the air. If you have any of these services, you must be ignorant or gullible.
> 
> ...


Nah, you can keep the cables, but I'd be open to trading equipment. There's a big difference with your other examples. Unless you have long runs or other special circumstances where you need shielding, there is not a single difference in audio or video comparing a well made cheap cable to a expensive Monster. There is a noticeable difference between a Chevette and a Lexus.

Plus, Monster Cable are litigious bullies. When they sue someone because their cables plug has the same dimensions etc, you know they've gone too far. When a Electronics store won't give me free delivery without a rebate (I wanted $50 right then, not have to mailin a rebate), but will throw in a $100 cable, you know the markup is insane.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

speaker wire (and other analog) carrying cables the quality can be dramatic.. digital signals are either there or not, if the 1s and 0s get there there will be no diff in the quality..


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> Back in '77, when I heard a difference between the fourteen gauge speaker wire I was then using and Polk Audio's Cobra Cable, I became a believer. Since then, I have heard many different speaker wires and interconnects that sound different. If you've never heard the difference in the sound of cables yourself, don't dismiss it. It does exist.
> 
> That said, I have found three things to be true:
> 
> ...


All I can tell you is that I have yet to see a double-blind test where the tester did significantly better than 50/50 when attempting to pick out the expensive versus cheap cables and speaker wire.

I can't find it, but years about Stereo Review did just such a test. Two identical systems (fairly high end), one with serious top end interconnects and speaker wire, and the other with the low end junk that comes with the components, and mis-matched unequal length speaker wire. None of the testers (a combination of average people and sterophiles) did much better than 50/50.

The bottom line is generally people who can "hear" the difference only can because they know which cable they are listening to, and therefore "think" they can hear a difference. Unless the test is double-blind, it is 100% useless. Poeple will always talk themselves into the more expensive cables sounding better.....especially if they've been duped into buying them.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

All I can tell you is my own experience, hilmar2k. 

You are telling me what others have experienced (Stereo Review lost all credibility back in the 1970s).

I'd recommend you try to hear the difference between speaker wires yourself. I have found in the right situation, it isn't even subtle.


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## Xsabresx (Oct 8, 2007)

jtbell said:


> *Porche, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GMC, Dodge * --- By your definition, all SCAMS, because you could just as easily buy a $500 beater car. If you drive anything other than the most stripped down car possible that can get you from point A to point B, you must be ignorant or gullible.
> 
> *DirectTV, Dish, Cable *--- By your definition, SCAMS, because you can get TV for free off the air. If you have any of these services, you must be ignorant or gullible.
> 
> ...


Porche, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GMC, Dodge get me from point A to pont B in more comfort and in some cases luxury than the $500 beater

DirectTV, Dish, Cable give me more channels and arguably more entertainment than free over the air tv

Brick Homes give me more protection from the elements and last longer

HDTV's give me a vastly improved picture over standard def.

Surround-Sound Systems give me a much better sound quality than the speakers in the average tv

Those can't be considered scams by anyone's definition because they all do something better than their free or standard counterparts.

What do your high end wires do that cheap ones dont? Nothing.

The fact that you can afford expensive wires doesnt make it a smart investment. I can afford them too but other than speaker wires it is a silly investment.


----------



## Dazed & Confused (Jun 13, 2007)

jtbell said:


> *Porche, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GMC, Dodge * --- By your definition, all SCAMS, because you could just as easily buy a $500 beater car. If you drive anything other than the most stripped down car possible that can get you from point A to point B, you must be ignorant or gullible.
> 
> *DirectTV, Dish, Cable *--- By your definition, SCAMS, because you can get TV for free off the air. If you have any of these services, you must be ignorant or gullible.
> 
> ...


This is possibly the worst use of analogies in the history of mankind.:lol:


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm surprised at you - speaker wire is all about gauge, nothing else. Quite a few of the old tests were comparing 22 gauge to 16 gauge or worse. That will create an audible difference at sufficient power levels and lengths. Otherwise, the wire, and the wire construction, will not affect the sound. Period - laws of physics apply. It's ALL about current carrying capacity.



Carl Spock said:


> All I can tell you is my own experience, hilmar2k.
> 
> You are telling me what others have experienced (Stereo Review lost all credibility back in the 1970s).
> 
> I'd recommend you try to hear the difference between speaker wires yourself. I have found in the right situation, it isn't even subtle.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

No, capacitive effects can also take place. Remember that inductance is a function of capacitance and resistance, and a speaker is an inductive load. It's adding capacitance into the system.

Not to mention passive crossovers that have capacitors built into them that the amplifier has to drive. Amplifiers see a lot of capacitance and the speaker wire can affect this, too.

Agreed, in general, thick speaker wires sound better than thinner ones but I've heard more than just a cable's thickness make a difference.

In an extreme example, Polk Audio's literally groundbreaking speaker wire, Cobra Cable, had a ton of capacitance in them. The Dyna 400 power amp I used back in 1977 didn't care, but they blew up a highly regarded audiophile amp I borrowed. Oops. It didn't like a capacitive load. Polk got smart and discontinued Cobra Cable within a year or two, but by that time, other companies, including Monster, had joined the market.

Ever seen Kimber Kable, Jeff? It is a woven cable, like Polk's, that sounds very good. I have to think capacitance somehow plays a role in their cables. Maybe in their design it's very low. I don't know.


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## BKC (Dec 12, 2007)

djwww98 said:


> *If I hurt someones feelings, well.. I don't care.*


!rolling


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## Piratefan98 (Mar 11, 2008)

Dazed & Confused said:


> This is possibly the worst use of analogies in the history of mankind.:lol:


I always figured that the worst analogies of all time had to contain the word "Hitler" as a prerequisite. I stand corrected. :eek2:


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> All I can tell you is my own experience, hilmar2k.
> 
> You are telling me what others have experienced (Stereo Review lost all credibility back in the 1970s).
> 
> I'd recommend you try to hear the difference between speaker wires yourself. I have found in the right situation, it isn't even subtle.


I wouldn't dispute what you are hearing, after all it is a problem of perception, which is influenced by a gazillion factors.

What the other poster is referring to with double blind studies is correct. If we want to make claims about whether something is or isn't "better", in reality, then we need a sufficient N, and a double blind study. Without that, what we have is ....well....nothing, but our individual "perception". Of course, if we are happy then that is good.

The real question is "Is there a difference, or put differently, is one *better* than another?" Without the double blind study this question can't be answered.

Our own poorly designed (from a scientific point of view) studies, with an N of 2, (you and your son), not double-blinded (you both knew what you where listening to), are no basis for making any "real" claim, other than you like what you have more than something else.

Everyone has a right to their own perceptions. The real question is are those perceptions grounded in reality? The answer is relatively easy to test, but hardly worth it for most people. If they like one thing better than another and get it at a price they find acceptable, then so be it.

It just has nothing to do, necessarily, with objective facts, or "reality".


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## jtbell (Nov 24, 2008)

Xsabresx said:


> What do your high end wires do that cheap ones dont? Nothing.
> 
> The fact that you can afford expensive wires doesnt make it a smart investment. I can afford them too but *other than speaker wires* it is a silly investment.


*I have nice $20 HDMI cables. *

As I said in my first post:


jtbell said:


> I've been a Monster Cable customer for years, and IMO their speaker cables and power centers are well worth the $$$.
> 
> That being said, HDMI is quite the different beast. As long as all of your 1's and 0's get where they are going, you will be fine. The only reason to upgrade would be an extremely long HDMI run, which most of us do not do. As a loyal Monster customer, I would advise getting a nice HDMI cable from Monoprice, and using the extra $$$ on something you can actually perceive the difference on.


I was subsequently blasted for my 'ignorance' for mentioning Monster Products.

I do have a Monster HTS3500 power center that I got on sale for about $180. This was recommended by an "ignorant" co-worker who happens to be an Electrical Engineer.

I used Monster Speaker wire in my installation because we have a new construction and I wanted to have my wires in-wall terminating in wall plates. Total cost of the 14-gauge Monster wire (for 6 speakers) was about $150. Total cost for el-cheapo Dynex wire would have been around $50.

Yet somehow, I am 'ignorant' for choosing to place high quality wire in an installation that would be exceedingly difficult to replace: one with long runs to the surround speakers.

Over the past 8 years, my 'ignorant' speaker wires prorate down to around $12/year more than buying the lower gauge Dynex wires, and $17/year over lamp cord.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

hasan, I have no problem with a good double blind test if it is done correctly. 

What the other poster was referring to was one done by Stereo Review 30 years ago with a switcher that was of questionable quality. I have fought this hoary and badly conceived test ever since then. Stereo Review ceased publication over a decade ago. I know from inside conversations with the folks at Polk Audio that their primary reviewer, Julian Hirsch, had awful review facilities in the basement of his house with his wife constantly yelling at him to turn it down. But then, I stopped believing Julian Hirsch when he categorically declared the original Bose 901 the best speaker ever made in 1968. Didn't the man ever listen to a pair of Quads, or even a pair of KLH 9s? Both were available in 1968 and while they didn't play as loud as the 901s, they were a whole lot better.

I am confident that a correctly conceived and designed double blind test would verify that speaker wires make a difference. But can we please let the Stereo Review test die the same death the magazine did?


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Let Me Repeat Myself...How many here would go to Big Lots or Dollar General and purchase their cable for use on whatever you own? Don't everybody raise your hands at once!


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

WOW...Five minutes later and not one sarcastic reply!


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## Piratefan98 (Mar 11, 2008)

The placebo effect is a very real phenomenon .... in drug testing, and in cable/speaker wire testing. When testing is anything other than double blind, our perceptions are easily led astray. Put a cable with a nice bright shiny gold end up against a cable with some plain Jane design, and plenty of people are going to say the glammed up cable sounds discernably better. Do that same test, but don't let anyone get to see the cables, and the results will always approach 50/50. The brain is funny that way.


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## Piratefan98 (Mar 11, 2008)

MysteryMan said:


> Let Me Repeat Myself...How many here would go to Big Lots or Dollar General and purchase their cable for use on whatever you own? Don't everybody raise your hands at once!


My Dollar General doesn't carry HDMI cable, but if they did, I'd have no problem using one. I'll know right away whether it works or not. Digital is nice like that.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> Let Me Repeat Myself...How many here would go to Big Lots or Dollar General and purchase their cable for use on whatever you own? Don't everybody raise your hands at once!


I'm not sure I understand the question, but I bought 10 HDMI cables on Amazon for $3.27 each. :shrug:

Mike


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

jtbell said:


> *I have nice $20 HDMI cables. *
> 
> As I said in my first post:
> 
> ...


Next they will be telling us that gold plated connecters are over rated and overpriced!


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## Piratefan98 (Mar 11, 2008)

MicroBeta said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question, but I bought 10 HDMI cables on Amazon for $3.27 each. :shrug:
> 
> Mike


$3.27 each? Hope you're enjoying the constant pixellation and audio dropouts. Plus, let's face it .... colors are more vibrant, contrast is more vivid, and sharpness and detail are all enhanced with the use of high-end cabling.

OK, I'll stop now.


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## jodyguercio (Aug 16, 2007)

Piratefan98 said:


> $3.27 each? Hope you're enjoying the constant pixellation and audio dropouts. Plus, *let's face it .... colors are more vibrant, contrast is more vivid, and sharpness and detail are all enhanced with the use of high-end cabling.*
> 
> OK, I'll stop now.


Prove it. What I've bolded is your opinion not fact, and what you see someone else may not. I've got two el cheapo HDMI cables from monoprice and not once in the past three years have I had a pixel or audio drop due to the cable. More times than not, it was about dish alignment for me.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Piratefan98 said:


> $3.27 each? Hope you're enjoying the constant pixellation and audio dropouts. Plus, let's face it .... colors are more vibrant, contrast is more vivid, and sharpness and detail are all enhanced with the use of high-end cabling.
> 
> OK, I'll stop now.


!rolling


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Yeah, Piratefan, you're on your own with this one even from me. I like Blue Jeans HDMI cables because they are well built and are HDMI 1.3 compliant but I can't say I've seen a better picture.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Takes at least 10 minutes to get to my closest Big Lots:lol:

Personally I SWEAR by the Monster Power Centers. I have 3 HTS-3600s and one of the HTS-5100s. A DRAMATIC improvement in picture quality and when one went bad a free replace no questions, no receipt nothing. Just forward them the defective unit and mere days later I got one back.

Yeah they co$t up the wazoo but I'm in farm country with 126 nominal voltage and with 2 heat pumps on the castle I get a lot of power fluctuations. Prior to the power centers I would get an occasional spike that would cause all the systems to lose their memory settings. Now no problems whatsoever.

Now as to cables, yeah they do go a bit over the top on pricing there. But again I had one 15inch sub (Klipsch RSW-15) that burned up within six months of new, a second one did the same. I replaced the cable with a Monster subwoofer cable and its working fine 4 years on sooo. Course I did add that HTS-5100 power center at that time too.

Don "expensive doesn't always mean good (or bad)" Bolton



MysteryMan said:


> WOW...Five minutes later and not one sarcastic reply!


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm sorry, bud. I respect you on this board, but claims of any given properly sized speaker wire having any advantage over any other properly sized speaker wire is pure bull hockey, and violates basic electrical physics. Caveat - I am talking about typical home installs at typical lengths, not open air concert situations where power and run length are considerable.



Carl Spock said:


> No, capacitive effects can also take place. Remember that inductance is a function of capacitance and resistance, and a speaker is an inductive load. It's adding capacitance into the system.
> 
> Not to mention passive crossovers that have capacitors built into them that the amplifier has to drive. Amplifiers see a lot of capacitance and the speaker wire can affect this, too.
> 
> ...


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Here is a great reference: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> hasan, I have no problem with a good double blind test if it is done correctly.
> 
> What the other poster was referring to was one done by *Stereo Review 30 years ago* with a switcher that was of questionable quality. I have fought this hoary and badly conceived test ever since then. Stereo Review ceased publication over a decade ago. I know from inside conversations with the folks at Polk Audio that their primary reviewer, Julian Hirsch, had awful review facilities in the basement of his house with his wife constantly yelling at him to turn it down. But then, I stopped believing Julian Hirsch when he categorically declared the original Bose 901 the best speaker ever made in 1968. Didn't the man ever listen to a pair of Quads, or even a pair of KLH 9s? Both were available in 1968 and while they didn't play as loud as the 901s, they were a whole lot better.
> 
> I am confident that a correctly conceived and designed double blind test would verify that speaker wires make a difference. But can we please let the Stereo Review test die the same death the magazine did?


The test I read was done ~12 years ago, and without a switcher. It was done pretty well.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> Here is a great reference: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm


There are a million sites just like that one, all coming to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, once someone has it in their head that expensive cables sound/look better, there is absolutely no arguing with them.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Jeff, you'll get no disagreement from me that thicker is better. My only point is that other factors come into play, too.

We haven't talked anything about connectors here and especially with thick wire, this can be a huge factor. I've seen great wires attached to crappy banana plugs with minimal contact surface area. The connector becomes the limiting factor. This is one reason I've always preferred bare wire, or if that isn't possible, spade lugs.

My favorite speaker wires ever were some Mark Levinson wires I bought maybe 25 years ago. Looking like 300 Ω twin lead antenna wire on steriods, it was a pair of maybe 10 gauge finely stranded copper wires widely separated with an insulator. They sounded golden but I could only afford two 5' pieces because they were so frickin' expensive.



hilmar2k said:


> Unfortunately, once someone has it in their head that expensive cables sound/look better, there is absolutely no arguing with them.


Experience is a *****.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

You better stop and actually visit that site, he draws the exact opposite conclusion you elude to below.



hilmar2k said:


> There are a million sites just like that one, all coming to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, once someone has it in their head that expensive cables sound/look better, there is absolutely no arguing with them.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> You better stop and actually visit that site, he draws the exact opposite conclusion you elude to below.


Hmmm...so it does.

Okay, so that's one million to one. I still like my odds. :lol:

EDIT: Though not entirely:



> It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size.





> There are a lot of myths about speaker wires, but in the end it's thickness that counts, and 12 gauge should be heavy enough for any reasonable domestic application. I've taken several comparative listening sessions over the years, and the sort of wire you want to use involves no sonic degradation that I (or anybody else in the tests) could hear. You could even wire the whole distance from amp to speakers using 12-gauge, but it would probably be more convenient to use something more flexible for the actual connection to components. Specialty audiophile cables would serve that purpose nicely, although more modest cables would work just as well."


My favorite:



> In comparison, 50 feet of the #16 wire is only 0.2 ohms and is better than the acceptable limit. The resistance of the ordinary wire is 6.4 times the resistance of the Monster wire. The demonstration clearly proves that adequate wire size is essential to proper operation of a speaker. It does not in any way prove that the Monster brand is superior to ordinary copper wire of the same size. *Even ordinary #16 zip cord will work just as well and is also 0.2 ohms for 50 feet*


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## jtbell (Nov 24, 2008)

hilmar2k said:


> There are a million sites just like that one, all coming to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, once someone has it in their head that expensive cables sound/look better, there is absolutely no arguing with them.


And amazingly few of those sites, regardless which side of the argument you fall, rely an anything resembling science.

Most all of them are conjecture, opinion, or observation, as opposed to some relatively simple and easily measured tests.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

And I continue to be amazed at how people will be so quick to dismiss a site they didn't visit.



jtbell said:


> And amazingly few of those sites, regardless which side of the argument you fall, rely an anything resembling science.
> 
> Most all of them are conjecture, opinion, or observation, as opposed to some relatively simple and easily measured tests.


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## jtbell (Nov 24, 2008)

JeffBowser said:


> And I continue to be amazed at how people will be so quick to dismiss a site they didn't visit.


My first high-end system featured a then gently-used McIntosh MAC 1900 pushing a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls.

http://mcc.berners.ch/receivers/MAC1900.pdf
http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/cornwall-overview/

This was my primary system for 20 years.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Dave O'Brien and Paul Klipsch, and have attended clinics hosted by each of them.

Roger's site has been up since the mid 90's, and, like all proud McIntosh owners, I had visited it numerous times before I had even heard of this forum.

I continue to be amazed how eagerly people here want to slam others.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

if you are referring to me, that wasn't a slam. You'll know it when I choose to slam. It always ends in moderator action.



jtbell said:


> My first high-end system featured a then gently-used McIntosh MAC 1900 pushing a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls.
> 
> http://mcc.berners.ch/receivers/MAC1900.pdf
> http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/cornwall-overview/
> ...


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

jtbell said:


> And amazingly few of those sites, regardless which side of the argument you fall, rely an anything resembling science.
> 
> *Most all of them are conjecture, opinion, or observation, *as opposed to some relatively simple and easily measured tests.


Uh, yeah, that's exaclty what we're looking for here. What sounds better is 100% conjecture, opinion, and observation. :shrug:

I couldn't care any less about the science, if it doesn't actually sound better, I don't care what the tests say, they're irrelevant. I can only hear 20-20000 (a little less than that, I'm getting old), so anything outside that is moot (and mute ).


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## ntwrkd (Apr 19, 2006)

Meritline - free shipping -

http://www.meritline.com/6feet-hdmi-ver1point4-male-cable---p-44003.aspx


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## bigbrother52 (Jan 20, 2008)

Six years ago I bought my first HDMI cables....Monster! I bought Monster cause that's what the store had. I used a store cause I wanted them that same day. Pretty darn simple decision for me, sooo, this convenience cost me.

All of my HDMI cable since has been Monoprice, they're just as pretty, remarkably so for the price. The connectors are probably of cheaper quality but for the price, ya throw it out fast if it starts to look bad.
Make no mistake, they do go bad. In as few as a half a dozen insertions it's possible that you might have a problem with a tab lifting and HDMI ports are delicate, catastrophic damage can happen as a result. 
I'd use either the cable with the best connector I could find, or at the very least, inspect the ends of any cable that gets repeated use. YMMV but I think the advice is sound if you value a particular piece of gear.

Also, just saying digital is digital and all of these cables work the same is all well and good but in the case of HDMI, a particular phenomena know as ''sparklies'' can occur. As a matter of fact, I'm quite surprised no one has brought it up as yet. 
If one should happen to notice this phenomenon, the cable is bad! ''Sparklies'' can occur in any cable regardless of cost but is probably more commonly associated with a cheaper cable.

I know tons of people beat the crap out of their cables and ports and never have had any of these experiences and I have no intentions of arguing these points with anyone. Most of this is fairly well documented with assorted manufactures and at various websites throughout the web if you're interested enough to dispute the information, or require additional information. 

So, as a side note and this is purely a matter of preference, I happen to like my Monster HDMI over the Monoprice for the oddest reason. 
Monoprice, at least the ones I have, are considerably fatter and heavier then my Monster, (not your typical type of complaint when comparing these cables) and I worry the extra weight and stiffness may damage an expensive piece of equipments fragile HDMI port. As such, for these Monoprice cables I've had to create my own strain relief as a preventative measure.

HDMI is great but at the same time, these poorly designed connectors suck bigtime.
All IMHO of course


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## bigbrother52 (Jan 20, 2008)

With this being all of my 6th post here, although have followed the forum since inception and I have more then my share of posts on certain ultra high end forums, I don't wanna step on any toes but....this thread was about HDMI, right?

I mean it's alot easier to discuss the merits of cheap HDMI and win that fight hands down, then it is to discuss speaker and analog cables and win that fight cause neither side will ever or has ever conceded their position on them. So if this thread is to continue, you all should keep it true to it's title and let's not get into the $10,000 we may have (or not) spent on cables other then HDMI:lol: cause some of us may have done just that but like a cheap HDMI.
While everyone here seems bent on Monsters distruction, a MONSTER in my system would be considered the cheap stuff so it's all relitive my friends. You objective types have a plethora of companies to hate, Monster in my book is the small fry. 
Stay on topic should be the battle cry after this past page but what do I know I'm just the new guy


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

bigbrother52 said:


> With this being all of my 6th post here, although have followed the forum since inception and I have more then my share of posts on certain ultra high end forums, I don't wanna step on any toes but....this thread was about HDMI, right?
> 
> I mean it's alot easier to discuss the merits of cheap HDMI and win that fight hands down, then it is to discuss speaker and analog cables and win that fight cause neither side will ever or has ever conceded their position on them. So if this thread is to continue, you all should keep it true to it's title and let's not get into the $10,000 we may have (or not) spent on cables other then HDMI:lol: cause some of us may have done just that but like a cheap HDMI.
> While everyone here seems bent on Monsters distruction, a MONSTER in my system would be considered the cheap stuff so it's all relitive my friends. You objective types have a plethora of companies to hate, Monster in my book is the small fry.
> Stay on topic should be the battle cry after this past page but what do I know I'm just the new guy


Capt., I ran a deeper scan of the thread and discovered there is intelligent life there after all!


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Shakes bigbrother52's hand.


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

Avder said:


> As many people here have stated, "Monster" cables are a complete ripoff. An HDMI cable is an HDMI cable, and so long as that cable meets the specifications as far as wire guage, maximum length, twists per foot, etc, it will behave like it should and will not give you any performance difference between those overpriced monsters.
> 
> What monster cables represent are marketing hype and maybe going very slightly beyond the spec. They may afford you better performance in extreme circumstances (such as going beyond the standards spec length), but even then there are cheaper solutions such as bridging two cables with an HDMI repeating device. The marketing gurus want you to think their cables are better by using buzz words and larger numbers that bear very little impact on actual performance. And in reality there is no such difference between an analog cable and a digital cable so long as its made of metal. Both are predominantly made of copper and act as a path for electrons which make up both analog and digital signals.
> 
> ...


That brings me to the question was/is it all right that the DTV installer used the existing cables from my Cable company (RG-6) for installation? Cable could be different frequencies and maybe different in other respects to what DTV uses as well?


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## gootz (Nov 28, 2008)

Carl Spock said:


> No, capacitive effects can also take place. Remember that inductance is a function of capacitance and resistance, and a speaker is an inductive load. It's adding capacitance into the system.
> 
> Ever seen Kimber Kable, Jeff? It is a woven cable, like Polk's, that sounds very good. I have to think capacitance somehow plays a role in their cables. Maybe in their design it's very low. I don't know.


I think you are referring to impedance (z)

Impedance is a function of resistance and total reactance.
Total reactance is the difference between capacitive reactance and inductive reactance.

capacitance and inductance are 180 degrees out of phase with each other and 90 degrees out of phase with resistance.

To get back to the original question, the hdmi cables that come in the box are fine. Worst thing about a cheap hdmi cable, or any cable is the connector, may become loose or never seat right.

As far as speaker cables go, I'm staying out of that one.....however, monster cable is hardly considered high end, more on the cheaper side.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

There is no difference between copper-clad steel (CCS) and solid-copper core (SCC) RG-6 cables as far as signal carrying performance is concerned because the signals are carried predominantly on the surface of the cable core. SCC is recommended by DirecTV because it has less voltage drop than CCS which is important when using long cable runs with conventional (non SWM) signalling. The advantages of SCC over CCS for cable runs between an SWM device (a dish or an SWM8/16) go away because the cable is not carrying power to the LNBs. For cable between an SWM8/16 and a conventional slimline dish, SCC is recommended because with long runs the voltage attenuation in SCC can be enough to degrade the power to the point where either the LNB does not work correctly, or the signalling voltage drops to the point where the LNB delivers the wrong channels.


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

texasbrit said:


> There is no difference between copper-clad steel (CCS) and solid-copper core (SCC) RG-6 cables as far as signal carrying performance is concerned because the signals are carried predominantly on the surface of the cable core. SCC is recommended by DirecTV because it has less voltage drop than CCS which is important when using long cable runs with conventional (non SWM) signalling. The advantages of SCC over CCS for cable runs between an SWM device (a dish or an SWM8/16) go away because the cable is not carrying power to the LNBs. For cable between an SWM8/16 and a conventional slimline dish, SCC is recommended because with long runs the voltage attenuation in SCC can be enough to degrade the power to the point where either the LNB does not work correctly, or the signalling voltage drops to the point where the LNB delivers the wrong channels.


I am a little confused here so let's simplify it. I had my cable company install RG-6 last year for cable service. The DirectV installer used the existing cables for my receivers. I have a Slimline 5LNB that DirectV converted to SWiM by, I think, changing one LNB. My HR24 info says SWiM-5.

I have MVR with VOD Internet. Does it matter that the DirecTV installer used the existing cables from cable company to run to all my receivers, HR24 and H24?


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## bigbrother52 (Jan 20, 2008)

Cavicchi said:


> I am a little confused here so let's simplify it.


I think very simply what texasbrit is trying to tell you is that the coax you have installed with your SWiM is just fine if... 
1) your signal readings are good 
2) WCBS is on channel 2 and HBO is on channel 501, in other words, your channels are where you expect them to be.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

gootz said:


> I think you are referring to impedance (z)


Of course I meant impedance. Brain fart.



> As far as speaker cables go, I'm staying out of that one.....however, monster cable is hardly considered high end, more on the cheaper side.


gootz, I'm glad MysteryMan, bigbrother52 and you get the great joke going on with this thread. People here are railing against Monster as overpriced. Have they seen what real high end cables go for? I've seen interconnects - a 3 foot pair of RCA cables - in stores for over a $1,000. I've read reviews about line level cables that go for much more.

What people really should be upset about is how Monster Cable is incredibly aggressive in incentivising stores to sell Monster, and that incentive - read: money - is filtered down to the floor salespeople, often in the form of spiffs. Yes, Mr. Jaded Consumer, your worst suspicions are true. I have known of stores where the salespeople got extra money for selling Monster. "Known" is probably not the best word to use there as, in fact, one of those stores was my own.   Now this was a couple of years ago. Things have gotten really crappy in the audio industry with the economy falling apart, so this is probably not true today. I'd be surprised if there was any extra money floating around to spiff sales people anymore. This still doesn't mean that today stores don't get a better price from Monster Cable through extra ad money, terms or discounts if they sell more Monster. That I'm sure is still happening.

Folks should also be upset that Monster Cable has bought the market, eliminating all competition to the point that Monster is sold at Wal-Mart. Where's the healthy competition that drives the market?

Finally, folks should be upset that the sales staff of their local store is so incompetent and poorly managed they don't know how to demonstrate that cables make a difference and instead, sell them only on hype.

These are the things are that the consumer should be upset about, not that Monster is over-priced. Folks, let me show you overpriced cables.

Go buy Monoprice. As somebody said in the other Monster Cable thread running right now, the point has been made. Don't buy Monster if you don't want to. There are cheaper alternatives. I've found one I like in Blue Jeans Cables. YMMV.


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

bigbrother52 said:


> I think very simply what texasbrit is trying to tell you is that the coax you have installed with your SWiM is just fine if...
> 1) your signal readings are good
> 2) WCBS is on channel 2 and HBO is on channel 501, in other words, your channels are where you expect them to be.


I have to check signal strength. I don't have WCBS on channel 2, but I do have CBS (WYOU) on channel 22, and I have HBO on channel 501.

Regardless, seems to me DTV installer took the short way using my cable company connections instead of using their DTV cable. When he said he was using the cable company connections, I asked if that was all right and he said yes. However, if there is a difference in design and DTV uses cables specifically for their setup, different from Cable, then he really should have used DTV cable is how I see it. If I knew there was a difference, I would have insisted he use DTV cable connections.

I will report back later today with what I get for signal strength.


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## bigbrother52 (Jan 20, 2008)

Cavicchi said:


> I have to check signal strength. I don't have WCBS on channel 2, but I do have CBS (WYOU) on channel 22, and I have HBO on channel 501.
> 
> Regardless, seems to me DTV installer took the short way using my cable company connections instead of using their DTV cable.
> I will report back later today with what I get for signal strength.


I thought that may be the case which is why I qualified the statement with ''in other words, your channels are where you expect them to be'', hoping you'd get the point.

The few installers I have met in my 12 years here would have run new cable because they could not vouch for the integrity of the existing cable. 
Others here may have a different opinion on that.


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

bigbrother52 said:


> I thought that may be the case which is why I qualified the statement with ''in other words, your channels are where you expect them to be'', hoping you'd get the point.
> 
> The few installers I have met in my 12 years here would have run new cable because they could not vouch for the integrity of the existing cable.
> Others here may have a different opinion on that.


I can tell you that my Cable company removed all DTV cable before installing Cable service last year--I had DTV for 2-3 years prior Cable. Now, my Cable company could have used DTV cables as they were RG-6, but they put in new cable that included running it around house to second floor--that is Service with a capital S.

My signal strength for HR24 downstairs is a tiny bit better than H24 upstairs. Keep in mind the following strength numbers are taken on a clear and sunny day:

99c downstairs: 94-95 (HR24)
99 upstairs: 92-95 (H24)

101 downstairs: 36-100 (HR24)
101: upstairs: 32-100 (H24)

103ca downstairs: 86-95 (HR24)
103cb downstairs: 94-95 (HR24)
103 upstairs: 92-95 (H24)

SWM: 0-100


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## nightrider (Jan 6, 2005)

yep blue jeans cables to me are the best,, they got a thick one and its pretty stiff, but the picture is something else i believe it was 45 dollars for a 6 footer , the colors are unbeatable


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

nightrider said:


> yep blue jeans cables to me are the best,, they got a thick one and its pretty stiff, but the picture is something else i believe it was 45 dollars for a 6 footer , the colors are unbeatable


For 6-foot runs they say the F2 HDMI is equal to the more expensive HDMI BJC-1 series HDMI. Reading their site, there does not appear to be any reason for buying anything but the F2 for 6 feet or under 25 feet.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

^ I read their website as there is no difference in "high speed Category 2" performance under 15 feet, not 25 as you say, but otherwise, yep, I think you've got it.

What? A company not pushing their most expensive cable as the best in all circumstances? Heresy! Recommending a customer save money? Blasphemy!

See why I like Blue Jeans Cable? :righton:


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## spamstew (Feb 16, 2006)

If you need any cables, mounts, etc.... monoprice.com


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

Carl Spock said:


> ^ I read their website as there is no difference in "high speed Category 2" performance under 15 feet, not 25 as you say, but otherwise, yep, I think you've got it.
> 
> What? A company not pushing their most expensive cable as the best in all circumstances? Heresy! Recommending a customer save money? Blasphemy!
> 
> See why I like Blue Jeans Cable? :righton:


True, but a little confusing when they also say, "28 AWG High-Flex version of our Bonded Pair design; our favorite for runs up to 25 feet."


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Cavicchi said:


> I can tell you that my Cable company removed all DTV cable before installing Cable service last year--I had DTV for 2-3 years prior Cable. Now, my Cable company could have used DTV cables as they were RG-6, but they put in new cable that included running it around house to second floor--that is Service with a capital S.
> 
> My signal strength for HR24 downstairs is a tiny bit better than H24 upstairs. Keep in mind the following strength numbers are taken on a clear and sunny day:
> 
> ...


Your signals are fine. What I was trying to point out in my post is that with SWM, any RG6 will be fine. Even RG59 will work with SWM systems. If you don't have SWM, unless there are very long cable runs, any RG6 will be fine also. DirecTV tells its installers to use SCC RG6 because then they don't have to worry how long the cable runs are, and what the voltage drop might be.


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## Cavicchi (Oct 28, 2008)

texasbrit said:


> Your signals are fine. What I was trying to point out in my post is that with SWM, any RG6 will be fine. Even RG59 will work with SWM systems. If you don't have SWM, unless there are very long cable runs, any RG6 will be fine also. DirecTV tells its installers to use SCC RG6 because then they don't have to worry how long the cable runs are, and what the voltage drop might be.


Sounds good to me. This MRV with VOD is absolutely fantastic, makes the DTV experience so much better. The HR24 is amazingly quiet!


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