# Is E6 being used, and if not how long would it take to move it?



## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

Is E6 being used right now? If it isn't how long would it take for E* to get approval and then act on that approval to move it to one of the new tweener slots in the 80 and 90 degree range? Just wondering if they have to wait for E11 to launch beforestarting their fabulous new MPEG4 HD service, of if they could start it sooner, perhaps maybe even by this Sept if they wanted too. Does the FCC work that fast, and can the bird be moved that quickly? Thanks.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

E6 is unused but is an in orbit spare. When E11 launches it will be less needed as a spare.

There is no need for E* to rush into the 'full MPEG4' service that was mentioned earlier this year. Their current system works fine. If anything a better place to put E6 would be at 129° where E5 is struggling. Serve the current customers.


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## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

OK, but if they launch this then they won't need 129 anymore. Plus it will be at at higher elevate, which will help those in the eastern part of the county that would like to get the programming (RSNs and HD LILs) that can't because 129 is so low.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

E11 replaces E8's ConUS usage (making E8 an in orbit spare). It does not directly add capacity to the system (other than in Alaska and Hawaii) so in no way should you assume that 129° will not be needed.

E* also has 61.5° for use in the East where seeing 129° is difficult ... with the same national channels as 129° but different HD LDL and RSNs.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

James Long said:


> E6 is unused but is an in orbit spare. When E11 launches it will be less needed as a spare.
> 
> There is no need for E* to rush into the 'full MPEG4' service that was mentioned earlier this year. Their current system works fine. If anything a better place to put E6 would be at 129° where E5 is struggling. Serve the current customers.


I'm sure that E* is hoping that E5 will last until Ciel-2 replaces it next year. E6 probably fits into their MPEG-4 plans, but I don't know how. I sure hope that E5 doesn't.


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## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

I think that you are misisng the point. If E6 starts beaming from a new orbital slot, they can just take what is at 129 and move it to the new slot. They just need to figure out what to do with the SD LILs that are currently at 129.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

Stephen J said:


> I think that you are misisng the point. If E6 starts beaming from a new orbital slot, they can just take what is at 129 and move it to the new slot. They just need to figure out what to do with the SD LILs that are currently at 129.


IMHO, I think when the new MPEG-4 service is operating, that all the national HD (and SD for that matter) will be on satellites in the new locations.

Ciel-2 at 129, with it's reported massive spotbeam capability, could be used for HD LIL for most of CONUS, and 61.5 for the rest.


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## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

The new sat at 129 won't be ready for at least another year. I am looking at something sooner than that. Right now if E* wanted to add more HD LILs where would they put them. There really is no room, espically now that they wasted all that space at 118 by mirrioring the internations that are already at 61.5 and probably won't be moving for a long time from their.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stephen J said:


> I think that you are misisng the point. If E6 starts beaming from a new orbital slot, they can just take what is at 129 and move it to the new slot. They just need to figure out what to do with the SD LILs that are currently at 129.


Name the slot. Where could E* take E6 and begin broadcasting to the US? E* needs to get FCC permission before that happens.

As it stands, the answer has already been given. E6 is in use near 110° as an "in orbit spare". We can shout and scream until Christmas and that fact won't change (until E11 reaches orbit and E8 becomes a better spare than E6).


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## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

My thought would be that they would move it to one of the new spots in the 80 and 90 degree range that the FCC has recently opened up. How soon can DBS companies like E* use these new spots?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

"Reverse DBS" (17/24 GHz) was approved back in May with 4° spacing.
I don't see any approval of short spacing regular DBS satellites.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

Stephen J said:


> My thought would be that they would move it to one of the new spots in the 80 and 90 degree range that the FCC has recently opened up. How soon can DBS companies like E* use these new spots?


They would have to apply to the FCC for permission, wait for the FCC to grant permission, move a satellite into the slot, build an uplink station for the slot, do in-orbit testing, update receiver firmware to recognize the location, test and release the firmware, and probably a few more things that I don't have a clue about. Several months away, I'm sure.


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## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

So when is E* planning on launching their MPEG4 only service? I won't ask from where since I know that we don't know. Do we know when? 6 month, 12 months 18 months? Thanks


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

We don't know. The comment was made that two satellites would be launching by the end of the year and that there would be an MPEG4 only service (SD and HD all in MPEG4) but the precise timeline was not spelled out. That is when all the speculation about slots and satellites began.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Stephen J said:


> I think that you are misisng the point. If E6 starts beaming from a new orbital slot, they can just take what is at 129 and move it to the new slot.


No, you are missing the point.

How are they going to "move" 129W? With a space tow truck? Or maybe you think the Space Shuttle will go help it out 

It's almost out of fuel and in bad dis-repair. They have openly said it will fail prior to January 1, 2009.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> No, you are missing the point.
> 
> How are they going to "move" 129W? With a space tow truck? Or maybe you think the Space Shuttle will go help it out
> 
> It's almost out of fuel and in bad dis-repair. They have openly said it will fail prior to January 1, 2009.


He's talking about moving the programming, not the satellite. :lol:


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

Mikey said:


> He's talking about moving the programming, not the satellite. :lol:


Sure - and customers would need a new Dish with a new orbital position - something that doesn't exist or isn't licensed.

Again, out of the realm of possibility.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> Sure - and customers would need a new Dish with a new orbital position - something that doesn't exist or isn't licensed.


And that is where speculation enters ... what in the world was Charlie talking about!

My personal opinion is that we are looking at a 61.5° and 148° or 129° based service. 129° less likely than 148° (since Ciel needs to reserve half of 129° for Canadian use). Those with a MPEG2/MPEG4 system (current subscribers) would get any new HD content from the new service and existing MPEG4 HD becomes part of the new service.

E* would have to push international subscribers off of 61.5° and 148° to give them room to do ALL that they have promised in an MPEG4 service. They have been using the carrot method (placing new channels only on 121° and hoping customers would migrate). If 118° is better than 121° they might be able to more easily migrate people (Plus is certainly a nicer dish than SuperDish). Eventually E* would have to pull out the stick and push people off of 61.5° and 148° if they need all the transponders for the new service.

There is still the possibility that new frequency bands and unused FSS slots might play a role. The #2 thing that will lead to the success of an MPEG4 only service is a better dish than one needs for the current combined service. #1 is the availability of each local market ... people won't go to MPEG4 if it means less channels than MPEG2.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

My version of the soapbox... is that if they launch the new MPEG4-only service, they should provide free dish repoints for existing customers who already have MPEG4 receivers.

I initially paid for my 61.5 installation back in the day because it was required... I paid again to get 129 when I did my ViP622 upgrade last year... and then paid a little more when I had to get 118.7 added a month or so after that.

If they go for the new service and it requires me to see different satellites than I am currently seeing, they had better come out and do that repoint for free for all of us who already paid to get aboard the MPEG4 train.

Everything is speculation until the new service starts of course, so maybe they will do right by us when the time comes.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

HDMe said:


> My version of the soapbox... is that if they launch the new MPEG4-only service, they should provide free dish repoints for existing customers who already have MPEG4 receivers.
> 
> I initially paid for my 61.5 installation back in the day because it was required... I paid again to get 129 when I did my ViP622 upgrade last year... and then paid a little more when I had to get 118.7 added a month or so after that.
> 
> ...


I am sure with a 2 year commitment, they will come and repoint your dish

However, if reverse dss is used or something out of the norm, then you better throw a new dish in the mix as well.

I do find it interesting that all the cheerleaders who were convinced this new HD exclusive system would be up and running by January have finally realized "ain't no way".


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

HDTVFanAtic said:


> ... I do find it interesting that all the cheerleaders who were convinced this new HD exclusive system would be up and running by January have finally realized "ain't no way".


Nope, that was never gonna happen. Maybe by this time next year.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

You should remember that a repoint will be required for the new MPEG4 system.

The new MPEG4 system is not an HD only system.

It is likely the new MPEG4 system is intended to be a complete service. That is a DiSH 500 will do all that you need.

Those who think 61.5 and 148 figure into this new MPEG4 system should remember that Charlie said a repoint would be needed for the service and conversation he had later indicated it would be a DiSH 500. Also, any new service has to be completely on one dish or be very ineffecient in its use of bandwidth(not what a conversion to MPEG4 is about).

The 2 slots being speculated on as the service points for the new MPEG4 service seem to be leaving Alaska and Hawai'i in the monster dish category.

Unless a major failure occurs, do not plan on any national channels leaving their current locations anytime soon, regardless of whether they are in service on the new MPEG4 service or not. Transitioning millions to a new service will take much time. 

Also, if the slots that are being speculated as THE slots for the new MPEG4 service can be approved, there is no reason that 105.5 can't be approved for the same reason.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

From what I understand they will leave both services up and running concurrently. They will have the mpeg 2 service with some mpeg 4 hd channels that we have today at the existing present day locations at 110/119/129/61.5 and then they will also have the new mpeg 4 service at supposed locations of 86.5 and 97 . They will have plenty of time to transition all subs to the new mpeg 4 service . Newer subs will automaticly be pointed to the new mpeg 4 service - which means no more mpeg 2 receivers for new subs. Then all existing subs will transition over in time. I think eventually once all subs have moved on to mpeg 4 they may reclaim the 110/119 sats and use them for a west coast version of mpeg 4 service which means that Alaska and Hawaii will keep using dish 500s pointed at the origional sat locations. IT also means that they will most likely not be able to use the new mpeg 4 service at the newer sat locations . So that maybe why some hd channels are being provided to them by spotbeam in Alaska. Either way next year will be a big year of CHANGE for DISH customers both old and new.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

As noted previously, there is no DBS slot at 97° and the one at 86.5 is for Central America - not the US. 97° is only 4° from 101° ... D* will pitch a fit if E* asks to put a DBS bird there. 86° is 4.5° away from Canadian 82°. Unless you get away from DBS and start thinking FSS (and look at 77° and other locations) there are no instant answers.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> The 2 slots being speculated on as the service points for the new MPEG4 service seem to be leaving Alaska and Hawai'i in the monster dish category.


Agreed. At least if E* used an existing slot they would not have to explain (too much) why their new service does not cover AK and HI. E11's arrival at 110° will help that issue on the old system.



> Also, if the slots that are being speculated as THE slots for the new MPEG4 service can be approved, there is no reason that 105.5 can't be approved for the same reason.


Given a choice, I'd say that E* would shoot for 105.5 and 114.5 if they could get them. Anything near D* satellites is going to be tough. Too many Phase III dishes out there that were designed to pick up 101°/110°/119° but not designed to reject 105.5° or 114.5°. D*'s 101°/119° dish would see even more problems. A polarity reversal might help, but it still will be messy.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

There's some activity going on to free up 105 and 121. Maybe we ought to start looking there for the future.


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## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

According to dishchannelchart.com 105 is almost empty right now. How many TPs does E* have access to at 105? What condition is the bird in that is at 105?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Stephen J said:


> According to dishchannelchart.com 105 is almost empty right now. How many TPs does E* have access to at 105? What condition is the bird in that is at 105?


24-36 Mhz Tps, but it is KuFSS and requires a larger than 18" dish. They are currently renting out the excess capacity for Backhauls and etc. They have a banner on Tp 12 with phone numbers. The bird seems to be in excellent condition.


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## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

What does it mean that they are renting them out for backhauls? Using MPEG4, what would it's potential channel capacity be for HD? Just wondering if they could start using that for HD LILs


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Renting for occasional use, like on election day there were many election newsfeeds up there.

144 channels, but they are doing away with the Superdishes, not looking for some reason to add more of those.


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## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

JohnH said:


> Renting for occasional use, like on election day there were many election newsfeeds up there.
> 
> 144 channels, but they are doing away with the Superdishes, not looking for some reason to add more of those.


Is their something bad about superdishes? Worse than Dish 1000s? I have never had one, so I don't know. I have 2 Dish 500s and get my HD from 61.5 because 129 is too low in my area east of Cleveland.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Dish does have FCC approval to build a satellite for the 86.5 W DBS "tweener" slot but can not launch or move anything there until interference issues are worked. Dish would have to work with Telesat that owns the Canadian DBS satellites at 82 W and 91 W but Dish does lease the regular Ku band Anik-F3 satellite at 118.7 W from them. Realize that there is signal overlap between the US and Canada. Here is the FCC website address for the above mentioned approval:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=545934

Dish does have FCC approval to build and launch a Ka band satellite at 97 W but nothing has been approved for DBS at that slot. Another possibility would be use of the Mexican 77 W DBS slot that Dish has an agreement to use although I am not sure how much of this is dedicated for use in Mexico. I would think a D500 dish would work for 77/86.5 W but aiming might be harder in the northern U.S. because of the Canadian 82 W DBS signals.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Thanks rocatman! Hiding in the files from 2006! 

BTW: Doesn't E* still have permission for 157° (all but three transponders abandoned when E4 left for 77°). I'm still holding out for two separate locations (one for Eastern US and one for Western US, AK/HI). Although US service from 77° is possible.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

James Long said:


> Thanks rocatman! Hiding in the files from 2006!
> 
> BTW: Doesn't E* still have permission for 157° (all but three transponders abandoned when E4 left for 77°). I'm still holding out for two separate locations (one for Eastern US and one for Western US, AK/HI). Although US service from 77° is possible.


I don't think Dish has permission for use of any TP frequencies at 157 W but I would be surprised if the FCC wouldn't let Dish use them if they wanted. I would think that the west coast view of 77 W should not be that bad.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Had to do a little research.

E* bought the 29 other transponder licenses at 157° in Auction 52 on July 14th 2004 (they bid an uncontested $5.8 million - Rainbow DBS bid an uncontested $6.4 million dollars for 64 transponders, 32 each at 166° and 175°).

The FCC nullified the auction on 12/21/2005 after the United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ruled against the FCC and declared that the auction was unauthorized (on June 21, 2005). 
In light of this holding, the Commission adopts a freeze on all applications for new DBS authorizations to use the 12.2-12.7 GHz band and associated feeder links in the 17.3- 17.8 GHz band pending Commission consideration of the appropriate processing rules for applications to provide DBS in the United States, and sets forth refund procedures.​
It seems that the freeze should be of interest to us (unless it has been lifted):
_DBS Freeze._ The freeze on DBS applications applies to any application for authority to provide DBS service to the United States using the 12.2-12.7 GHz band and associated feeder links in the 17.3- 17.8 GHz band, including unassigned channels at orbit locations assigned to the United States under the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) Region 24 Broadcasting Satellite Service and feeder-link Plans, as well as applications for DBS service from space stations located at orbital locations not assigned to the United States in the ITU Region 2 BSS and feeder-link Plans. This freeze is limited to applications for licenses for new space stations or for new requests for market access by foreign-licensed space stations. The freeze does not apply to applications for replacement satellites, modifications to existing satellite licenses, or requests for special temporary authority, unless such applications seek authority to operate on frequencies and/or orbital locations not previously authorized for operation by that licensee. The freeze also does not apply to amendments to pending DBS license applications unless the amendment would add frequencies or orbital locations that were not in the original license application.​
Source: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-213A1.pdf


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

rocatman said:


> I don't think Dish has permission for use of any TP frequencies at 157 W but I would be surprised if the FCC wouldn't let Dish use them if they wanted. I would think that the west coast view of 77 W should not be that bad.


This sat at 77w according to the echostar knowledge base , is only viewable in southern gulf states and florida and mostly Mexico. It goes on to say that Dish might be able to use it like they did the Canadian slot at 129. I don't see this being part of the mpeg 4 service if it is mostly viewable in Mexico.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Think outside the box. The satellite currently there (E4) was placed there to save the Mexican license. A new satellite (E6 when available or the AMC satellite scheduled for launch) could go there to serve the US (assuming the FCC gives permission).


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

105.5 & 114.5 makes a lot of sense. E* has a sat at the 114.5 spot right now doing little. The 105.5 has a Mex sat close at 105.9 so there would be no conflict there. This would also cover the whole of the states better than 129. If they have the beam shapping correct then they could cover both AK & HI as well. So now that we are all guessing where did the lower number locations come from?


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

rocatman said:


> I don't think Dish has permission for use of any TP frequencies at 157 W but I would be surprised if the FCC wouldn't let Dish use them if they wanted.





Mike D-CO5 said:


> This sat according to the echostar knowledge base , is only viewable in southern gulf states and florida and mostly Mexico. It goes on to say that Dish might be able to use it like they did the Canadian slot at 129. I don't see this being part of the mpeg 4 service if it is mostly viewable in Mexico.


In all due respect, then the Echostar knowledge base IS WRONG.

I am, to the best of my knowledge, the only one in Florida with a dish on 148W - and its a 1.2 Meter just to get a 72 signal strength - and shooting through that much atmosphere at 13.3 degrees elevation, the slightest hint of water 100 miles away blows the signal out.

For me, 157W would be at an elevation of 5.3 degrees above the horizon. Miami would be 3.4 degrees. Pensacola 8.8 degrees. New Orleans 11.3 degrees. Even Houston is only 16.2 degrees elevation. Albuquerque New Mexico is only 23.4 degrees of elevation.

And its worse as you go North as Chicago is at 6.6 degrees of elevation and Denver is only 19.9 degrees of elevation.

Bottom line - 157W is WORTHLESS to anyone EAST of a line between Denver south to roughly the Texas/New Mexico state line where you would be at roughly 20 degrees above the horizon.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I believe he was referring to 77° not 157° ... and the coverage in the EKB is estimated based on the expected design coverage of E4 (covering the US) shifted south to cover Mexico per it's license. (I did the estimate. )

If 157° were used it would only be used for the west coast and hopefully Alaska and Hawaii (getting a satellite with a good footprint). 77° or another location would be used for most of the US.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

whatchel1 said:


> 105.5 & 114.5 makes a lot of sense. E* has a sat at the 114.5 spot right now doing little. The 105.5 has a Mex sat close at 105.9 so there would be no conflict there. This would also cover the whole of the states better than 129. If they have the beam shapping correct then they could cover both AK & HI as well. So now that we are all guessing where did the lower number locations come from?


I don't feel like checking at 3am, but I believe another company besides E* was chosen for the 114.5 tweener spot. E* was given 86.5W as a tweener spot between the 2 BEV birds.


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## HDTVFanAtic (Jul 23, 2005)

James Long said:


> I believe he was referring to 77° not 157° ... and the coverage in the EKB is estimated based on the expected design coverage of E4 (covering the US) shifted south to cover Mexico per it's license. (I did the estimate. )
> 
> If 157° were used it would only be used for the west coast and hopefully Alaska and Hawaii (getting a satellite with a good footprint). 77° or another location would be used for most of the US.


Obviously 157W could only be used for the West Coast given the elevation numbers I listed.

However, it still amazes me that Hawaii cannot pick up 148W which is much closer to Hawaii than the mainland (Honolulu is at longitude 157W while Los Angeles is at longitude 118W)- it just goes to show you how directional the signal really is - even overhead at 22k miles.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Apparently a company called "Spectrum Five LLC" has 114.5° as a tweener:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
Applicant herein seeks authorization to provide Direct Broadcast Satellite Service to U.S. customers from a Netherlands-authorized 'tweener' satellite to be operated at 114.5 degrees W.L.​
Granted 11/29/2006 (authorization)

Both E* and D* have filed against the authorization, Spectrum Five filed an opposition and both E* and D* filed replies at the beginning of the year.
Read all about it
(If for some reason this link does not work click on the "Other filings related to this application" link on the page linked at the top of this post.)

E* withdrew it's application to use 114.5°.


HDTVFanAtic said:


> Obviously 157W could only be used for the West Coast given the elevation numbers I listed.


Your annoyance should have been tempered by the fact that he was not talking about 157°.



> However, it still amazes me that Hawaii cannot pick up 148W which is much closer to Hawaii than the mainland (Honolulu is at longitude 157W while Los Angeles is at longitude 118W)- it just goes to show you how directional the signal really is - even overhead at 22k miles.


That's the footprint for you.  E1 and E2 were designed at a time where DBS providers expected to launch twin systems ... one on the eastern allotments (101°/110°/119° and 61.5°) and one on western allotments (148°/157°/166° and 175°) instead of trying to serve the entire ConUS from the eastern allotments.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I was referring to 77w and have edited my post to show it that way.


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