# OTA and Mapping Issues Discussion area



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I have read some OTA mapping and reception issues and figured that it would helpful to have one area to discuss them and another to place a report. So I created a thread for these issues and one to place specific reports in.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Thanks Ron.

This is an important issue and DISH needs to do a much better job of providing the listings or getting the problem fixed. I can't get a stright story from DISH what the heck the problem is (them [their receiver software], or their listing service).

I get 21 OTA digital channels (8 HD) and out of the 21 channels there are listings on only 6 of them.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

go to nab.com/issues/hdtv/schedule.asp

This is the site for all the listing of HDTV channels


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

tomcrown1 said:


> go to nab.com/issues/hdtv/schedule.asp
> 
> This is the site for all the listing of HDTV channels


I know that you are trying to be helpful but it should not be necessary for someone that pays as much as we do for service to have to go to a web site to get listings. The listings SHOULD be right there on our receivers.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Yep.. and this is a can of worms. Lots of different use cases for this one. Saw your screen capture Bill. That is type of screen captures that can be of some use. As far as coverage goes, I would not expect all sub channels to be filled in, but I would definitely have the expectation of seeing guide data in the major channels. On my 811, I am really suprised all the OTA channels that have EPG Data. Coverages sure does seem region dependent.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tomcrown1 said:


> go to nab.com/issues/hdtv/schedule.asp
> This is the site for all the listing of HDTV channels


nab.com doesn't appear to exist. nab.org exists but that page apparently doesn't.


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## chrisjs (Feb 8, 2006)

Here is a good site for OTA channels:

http://antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx

Christopher


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

http://www.nab.org/newsroom/issues/digitaltv/dtvstations.asp
sorry this is the right link


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Bill. I know you are a previous 921 user. In terms of guide data, are you getting the same as your 921 or is the 622 providing you less. That would be nice to add to your report. Most of those stations are substations. Any missing primary stations? 

For me and my 921, I really don't put a lot of value on the subchannel guide information. Never watch them.  Do you watch a lot from the subchannels? 

Thanks for the link Tom.. I am sure that will come in handy.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Ron Barry said:


> Bill. I know you are a previous 921 user. In terms of guide data, are you getting the same as your 921 or is the 622 providing you less. That would be nice to add to your report. Most of those stations are substations. Any missing primary stations?
> 
> For me and my 921, I really don't put a lot of value on the subchannel guide information. Never watch them.  Do you watch a lot from the subchannels?


Ron,

I never had a 921. The ViP622 is my first satellite HD receiver. My other DISH receiver is a 721 (and it is only a matter of time before the wife wants that replaced by an HD receiver).

Around here almost all the PBS HD programming is on a subchannel so, yes, we watch them a lot. And we do watch the others sometime because they have their "prime time" programming on their sub-channels at other times. And you might have noticed that not all of my local digital stations have an "01" channel and the only thing in my area that DISH provides the listings for are the "01" channels.

It would be nice to get all the listings for all the sub-stations but I would be happy to be able to get, at least, the listing for the HD stations. Three local HD stations (via the 622 OTA tuner) only say "Digital Service". That is unacceptable.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Legit argument Bill.. Sorry.. I think I got you confused with another Bill. Reason I was asking was doing a comparision sometimes leads one to see that both receivers don't get it so it is common issue vs. 921 gets it.. 622 does not.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

All the locals map in my DMA. The only issue I have, which has been there since activation (2/16) is the local FOX, KTVIDT does not populate any data into the EPG, though it is correctly mapped above the SAT KTVI, saying only "Digital Service."
All of my other receivers have the EPG data.


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

Here in St. Louis, the PBS 01 sub is the HD channel. 03 is the analog mirror. There is a sum total of 4 subs and NONE contain any data along with the local Fox station which is an O&O. Out of 11 or 12 possible DT stations, I have guide data for half of them.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

Moman,
Do you still have your 811? If so, are you getting guide data on it for KTVIDT?
I'm getting it on the 211 and 921, but I'm doing some cabling changes, and don't presently have OTA connected to the 811.


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

kdg454 said:


> Moman,
> Do you still have your 811? If so, are you getting guide data on it for KTVIDT?
> I'm getting it on the 211 and 921, but I'm doing some cabling changes, and don't presently have OTA connected to the 811.


Ken,

I sent my 811 back. But it too, lost KTVI-DT guide data a few weeks back. I'm certain of this fact, which is why I cannot blame fully the 622. Are you getting guide data for the four PBS subs? Your posting suggests this but I've NEVER seen guide data other than for the Analog channel.

I'll bet the KTVI issue is at their end as I saw this last year when their PSIP went crazy. I send them e-mails, but no one responds.


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

I find the 622 better than my 921, to get nearbuy DMA I had to have a SD105 to get EPG. The 622 has EPG with only a D-500


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

moman19 said:


> Ken,
> I sent my 811 back. But it too, lost KTVI-DT guide data a few weeks back. I'm certain of this fact, which is why I cannot blame fully the 622. Are you getting guide data for the four PBS subs? Your posting suggests this but I've NEVER seen guide data other than for the Analog channel.
> I'll bet the KTVI issue is at their end as I saw this last year when their PSIP went crazy. I send them e-mails, but no one responds.


No, no PBS...never have. The post was just related to the change of KTVI-DT on the 622. The last time I had the 811 on OTA, it did get guide data for KTVI-DT. I'll have it connected again by this weekend, so I'll find out then if it still does.
I also do not get guide data for WPSD-DT 6:1-3. Not even sure what it is, must be an IL local..."W," and of course no data for KSDK's fabulous 5-2 :nono:

I'm going to call that TPS tech back this week and find out the status of the issue with KTVI. I'm guessing we're not getting another update, since we just got one last week, but she said the 28th, so I'll give them until Thursday. Will let you know the outcome.


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

kdg454 said:


> No, no PBS...never have. The post was just related to the change of KTVI-DT on the 622. The last time I had the 811 on OTA, it did get guide data for KTVI-DT. I'll have it connected again by this weekend, so I'll find out then if it still does.
> I also do not get guide data for WPSD-DT 6:1-3. Not even sure what it is, must be an IL local..."W," and of course no data for KSDK's fabulous 5-2 :nono:
> 
> I'm going to call that TPS tech back this week and find out the status of the issue with KTVI. I'm guessing we're not getting another update, since we just got one last week, but she said the 28th, so I'll give them until Thursday. Will let you know the outcome.


Yes, please keep me posted. Apparently, we are not alone, but I'm not 100% convinced this isn't a KTVI-DT issue. I've seen it before.

BTW, you are far away! WPSD is in Paducah, KY!


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

moman19 said:


> BTW, you are far away! WPSD is in Paducah, KY!


Dang, the 921 OTA tuner is pulling it in around 65-70.
Also odd, Puducah is SSE of me, and my antenna (directional) is pointed almost due north at 5°.
Perhaps one of those mystical terrestrial reception things.

Ah, sorry folks, back OT...will post when/if I hear anymore from TPS re the local FOX guide data issue.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Called Dish last night and the CSR, said that this was not a known issue. No one
else had reported it. He told me to reboot the machine both ways, unplugging and
holding the button in. So I hung up with him and tried both. Still no OTA guide data or correct mapping of locals. So this morning I called Dish and the CSR made an official report of no OTA guide. He said it was the first report. I had to wait about six months with my 921 before the software was corrected so that I could get guide data. He said I hope you do not have to wait six months again, but that Dish would have no timetable on correcting the software. My guess is that this is the
921 all over again and I will have to wait six months.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

Hound said:


> Called Dish last night and the CSR, said that this was not a known issue. No one
> else had reported it. He told me to reboot the machine both ways, unplugging and
> holding the button in. So I hung up with him and tried both. Still no OTA guide data or correct mapping of locals. So this morning I called Dish and the CSR made an official report of no OTA guide. He said it was the first report. I had to wait about six months with my 921 before the software was corrected so that I could get guide data. He said I hope you do not have to wait six months again, but that Dish would have no timetable on correcting the software. My guess is that this is the
> 921 all over again and I will have to wait six months.


I spoke with CEO Escalations and Technical Product Support regarding this issue on 2/18. I have the emails, tech names and extension numbers.
They are definitely aware of the issues.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

On my 811, I only received guide data on the one Kansas City station I could pick up with my OTA. All of the local DMA (Topeka) stations said digital service. It was explained to me that because Topeka was on a superdish the guide data only came through a superdish, but since Kansas City was Dish 500 I received the info. I'm not sure that's the way it should work. On the 622/1000 I receive no guide data


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## abricko (Mar 1, 2006)

I've only had my 622 overnight, I don't sub to locals on DISH, i pull all my channels OTA, I still have Digital Service displaying on my Program Guide... I called Dish and they said it takes 24 - 48 hours to initially populate OTA guide data as it comes in OTA and not over the Dish...
can anyone confirm this? I know there's a sony DVR which does this and it does take like a week or more to pull in initial full guide data (i guess it's not constantly broadcasted, only in small chunks).

Am I screwed into having to sub to dish locals (extra 5 a month) to get OTA guide data. I'd rather use my two sat tuners for sat only content and my OTA tuner for my locals... and w/o guide data it's a PITA to schedule OTA programs!

Other than that i'm very happy with this unit.


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## tammyandlee (Apr 22, 2002)

I dont have the guide data for my local PBS stations and I do sub dish locals. Also my old HD Tivo is seeing them fine so I know the station is transmitting the guide data.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

abricko said:


> Am I screwed into having to sub to dish locals (extra 5 a month) to get OTA guide data.


Yes. This has been Dish policy for quite some time with the possible exception of the 811.

The key is to make sure that there is going to be guide data if you do subscribe. Many areas don't have enough guide data available to be of much use.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tammyandlee said:


> I dont have the guide data for my local PBS stations and I do sub dish locals. Also my old HD Tivo is seeing them fine so I know the station is transmitting the guide data.


TiVo gets its guide data via telephone (or Internet if so equipped). It does not use PSIP.


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

harsh said:


> Yes. This has been Dish policy for quite some time with the possible exception of the 811.
> 
> The key is to make sure that there is going to be guide data if you do subscribe. Many areas don't have enough guide data available to be of much use.


When I had an 811, as I recall, you had to have locals to get OTA guide data..


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Unless things have changed, the 811 does not require having locals to get EPG.


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## Cokeswigga (Jan 25, 2005)

Has anyone tried deleting OTA channels that have already been added. 

I have done this, and I still have the deleted channels showing up in the guide! 
I dont' want them there. How can I get them out!?


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## mattcombs (Feb 17, 2006)

Hey all,

I'm struggling with my OTA locals. I have Dish-locals (no HD), too. I do the scan, it picks up 16 channels (with network IDs/names), I hit select all, the buttons turn pink, then hit Done. It gives me the saving important info message, and all is well. But then, I can't seem to access or "find" my ota locals!

THe EPG shows the DIsh locals, and I try entering the channles directly, but never get anywhere. I tried the different settings for each of the priorities, it didn't make any difference.

I checked out the ViP 622 review, was nice but didn't help me solve the problem (wasn't supposed to, but I was hopeful)

I must be missing something. Help!


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## tammyandlee (Apr 22, 2002)

Are you sure a D* HD Tivo does not use PSIP?


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

tammyandlee said:


> Are you sure a D* HD Tivo does not use PSIP?


ALL satellite receivers that have an ATSC tuner to receive OTA digital channels use PSIP to some extent. That is the only way that they can identify and properly map a digital channel (they do that when you do a channel scan and then store the information). None of the satellite receivers use the PSIP data for EPG information. There are several reasons for that: First, EPG via PSIP is very limited. Stations only provide, at the most, 12 hours of EPG data and a great many provide much less than that. Second, the satellite vendors have much better sources for the EPG data. They are already paying a vendor (usually Tribune or TVG) for their satellite channel EPG data and it is no big deal to get the additional data for the OTA digital channels. DISH does seem to have a problem getting that data to their subscribers (in some markets) but I have been told that they are aware of the problem and are working on getting it fixed.


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

Ron Barry said:


> Unless things have changed, the 811 does not require having locals to get EPG.


Its been a year, perhaps I just cannot recall..


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

harsh said:


> Yes. This has been Dish policy for quite some time with the possible exception of the 811.
> 
> The key is to make sure that there is going to be guide data if you do subscribe. Many areas don't have enough guide data available to be of much use.


OTA locals work so well on my new 622 that today I decided to unsubscribe from the SAT locals to save the $5/month charge for these channels I see as duplicates and didn't need. That is until I now realize I no longer have guide data for my local OTA channels. I called support and was nfomed as stated here that to get the guide data I have to subscribe to the SAT locals. I am already paying $110+/month for the HD platinum package and lease charges. Looks like I will downgrade my service soon.


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