# It's Baaaaack! OTA Guide data for non-LIL subscribers



## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I can't believe no one has posted this yet, so I'll do it. Am I the only one?

Yes, it's back with L219! I have OTA guide data from the TMS service for all the OTA channels I had before L218. None on the subchannels. 

And just to confirm, I do not and will not pay for this by subscribing to LIL. 


I hope me admitting to having this will not get someone yelled at or brutally ridiculed and then fired in front of co-workers.

:hurah: ROFLMAOPIMP sigh!  :lol:


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

shhhhhh....

(actually, I have no idea how that happened, as you definitely would not have gotton the guide data if you were running the beta that I was running before the release version...)


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## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

I never lost mine. I sub to the locals. I am in Austin and get San antonio OTA channels (75 miles away) and Houston (120 miles away) ota channels. I still have the guide data for them. I never deleted them either


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## kzosat (Aug 22, 2004)

I wish I had any guide data for my locals. I sub to dish locals and have an ota antenna and all my locals (dish and OTA) say LOCAL PROGRAMING since 218. I am firmly believing since no one is acknowledging this that I am the aboslutely only one to have this happen. 

I have called dish support and they keep saying 921 team will contact me and that is been since 2 says after 218 was released.


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> I can't believe no one has posted this yet, so I'll do it. Am I the only one?
> 
> Yes, it's back with L219! I have OTA guide data from the TMS service for all the OTA channels I had before L218. None on the subchannels.
> 
> ...


With 219, I still have no guide data for 3 of my OTA channels.

I think I have found the problem. I DO subscribe to locals.

Maybe those of us subbing and not getting guide data need to drop the locals to get the data?


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

Don, are the locals showing up in red in your 7xxx, 8xxx, or 9xxx range?

Brad


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Brad- I don't subscribe to DishNetwork locals for the $5.99 per month. I have never seen my Jacksonville locals appear red, gray, Blue, or any color. I suppose if I did subscribe they would show up somewhere. I haver never even bothered to look up what channel E* puts them on.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Don, you may be the only one. My buggy HEED downloaded 219 and the OTA guide still does not work as it did in 215.

I just received a warrenty replacement. My HD crashed & repaided itself 4 times twice in 215 and twice in 218. When it crashed the first time in 218 after the first fix it crashed again while I was restoring my preferences.

Mabe the 3rd time is the charm. I hope I get the guide data on my new replacement too 

Don did they give you free locals during the "blackout of 217"? I wonder if not getting free locals is a factor, and or HEED vs HECD?

Lastly what OTA stations are populating your guide?


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

MichaelP I don't know how to say this any other way. My Greek is not good enough. 

I don't subscribe to E* locals, never had them, ever. Not for $5.99 per month, FREE, or any amount of money. Nobody ever gave me locals, not during the L217 peace offering as I did receive an e-mail to call "Amy" and another e-mail from someone I believe to be her supervisor. But when I called both they were not available so I left them the information to call back "within 30 minutes" as they instructed and they never called. Therefore, that peace offering many of you all got never happened for me. Didn't have locals before L217, didn't get them during the peace offering and still don't have them. 

When I rebooted to launch L219, the OTA grid came up populated with all the guide data with exception of one channel that is not listed with TMS Sionmce they do send PSIP data I can scan it in but no guide data from their EIT is shown; and, none of the sub channels has guide data, only the primary. It's exactly like it was with L215.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> Brad- I don't subscribe to DishNetwork locals for the $5.99 per month. I have never seen my Jacksonville locals appear red, gray, Blue, or any color. I suppose if I did subscribe they would show up somewhere. I haver never even bothered to look up what channel E* puts them on.


Don, here's the reason why I asked the question:

Under L215, when we "mistakenly" got the guide data, the SD local channels (from which they were getting the EPG info for the OTA channels) appeared in the "all channels" guide in red, as in "unsubscribed." For you, this would be somewhere in the 7000's, 8000's, or 9000's. I was just interested to see if now, under L219, your SD locals appear in red in one of those ranges.

I would also be very interested to know if others like you, who do not now and never have subscribed to locals, are seeing the same thing. I'm going to be dropping my "free" locals soon, and would like to know what to expect. Thanks!

Brad


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## motrac (Jan 5, 2003)

Guide data is back on mine also, just like 215. I have locals sub'd but they are my old Boston areas channels(now live in S.W. Florida) and can't get most of them as they are spot beamed but I don't want them anyway. All I want is OTA locals with a guide so I can record without manual timers. I hope it's not a mistake!


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

DonLandis said:


> MichaelP I don't know how to say this any other way. My Greek is not good enough.
> 
> I don't subscribe to E* locals, never had them, ever. Not for $5.99 per month, FREE, or any amount of money.


But Don, are you absolutely sure that a long lost wealthy relative didn't give you the locals as a reconciliation gift instead of a big inheritance?


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Bradtothebone said:


> Don, here's the reason why I asked the question:
> 
> Under L215, when we "mistakenly" got the guide data, the SD local channels (from which they were getting the EPG info for the OTA channels) appeared in the "all channels" guide in red, as in "unsubscribed." For you, this would be somewhere in the 7000's, 8000's, or 9000's. I was just interested to see if now, under L219, your SD locals appear in red in one of those ranges.
> 
> ...


Right, but that's just the rub, Brad. It is true that SOME had locals showing up in red from the satellite channels in the 7k,-9K but I DID NOT! Never did. And not everyone does. So.... to answer your primary question as to what to expect, that is easy. Logically speaking, with the 921, expect the unexpected. Nothing is guaranteed. Currently people are paying Dish for this guide data and are not getting it while I and others refused to pay for it and are getting it. There is nothing standard about this and the reason is simple. Their development team is not playing with a full deck and their beta test team is completely inadequate. This is why their true results are not what they expect in every case. It is so pathetic it is laughable. I've stated my position, I won't pay for their broken promises any more. You all do what makes you happy. I don't even care about the locals on the 921 because it is a totally inadequate system to do DVR OTA anyway. But that is because I'm spoiled with a dual OTA tuner with NBR and over a hundred hours of record capacity for HD that's dependable. I just feel really bad that so many of you are getting screwed for your $5.99 per month while people like me have it and don't even care.

_"But Don, are you absolutely sure that a long lost wealthy relative didn't give you the locals as a reconciliation gift instead of a big inheritance? "_

No, but now that you mention it, I did get an e-mail some time back from one who lived in Africa and his attorney said if I didn't send them a finders fee I would not get the $30 billion he left me.


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## KCMike (Dec 20, 2004)

Is anybody besides Don getting the OTA guide info and not subscribing to LIL?

I live in KC DMA. I do not subscribe to locals, and I do not have any OTA guide data under 219.

Right now it appears Don may be the only one getting this "gift" from Dish.

Mike


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

I think Don is getting the OTA guide info because he is a really swell guy.


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## kckucera (Aug 1, 2005)

We are getting the OTA for PBS (finally) in Denver with Rev 219. Now if VOOM can only figure out what time zone we are in it would be great.


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## langlin (Apr 8, 2005)

Must help to have the beta tester in the denver area, we still are without PBS OTA guide in Springfield MO.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

I have never ever received LIL paid or free, and have no rich relatives outside of Nigeria.

L215: DTV guide data, LIL showed up in red in the 7-9K range for the first time ever
L216: no DTV guide data, DTV channels completely disappear from guide, can't be tuned at all, LIL no longer in guide
L218: no DTV guide data, DTV channels restored to guide, LIL still not listed
L219: same DTV guide data as L215 but LIL not listed

I wish they would quit wasting their time and resources trying to figure out how to exclude certain classes of owners. There is really only one class - those who are able to receive DTV and therefore need to see a guide.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

motrac, BobaBird, and Don Landis: Would you please post the OTA channels that you are getting guide data? Perhaps it has someting to do with the way these stations are broadcasting PSIP data (yes I know you are getting TMS guide and not PSIP)

Another question: Do all of you have your phone line connected to the 921? After I installed my refurb replacement 921 it made a call out the following morning. I'm wondering if that call had any affect on getting the guide data.

Here is my experience:
L215: OTA guide data, LIL showed up in red in the 8000 range for the first time ever

L216: no OTA guide data, OTA channels that had guide data disappear from guide, can't be tuned at all, LIL no longer in guide. Had temporary "free" locals turned on to fix

L218: had OTA guide data with free LIL's, Turned off Free LIL's, bye bye OTA guide data

L219: a.) old 921 "refurb #1" (that had the free LIL's in 216): no OTA giude data. Stations that had data in 215, lost in 216 had "No information available" (blue background) for the current time frame, while stations that never had guide data (subchannels, PBS, religious channel not carried LIL) had "Local Programming" (green background) for the current time frame.

b.) new 921 "refurb #2": No OTA guide data, all channels listed as "Local Programming" (green background).


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## bnam (Nov 25, 2004)

I cancelled my free LiL's yesterday. Even after turn off the Local guides for OTA persisted for a while. But, several hours laters it was gone. BTW, prior to turn off I noticed that the PBS guides had been restored (KQED all sub channels, KVIE -- shows up only on 6-02 (and not really the guide for this sub channel) which was the same as with 215)
B


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"Don Landis: Would you please post the OTA channels that you are getting guide data? Perhaps it has someting to do with the way these stations are broadcasting PSIP data (yes I know you are getting TMS guide and not PSIP)"_

4-1 WJXT
7-1 WJCT
12-1 WTLV
17-1 WJKS
25-1 WJXX
30-1 WAWS
47-1 WTEV

Does that help you? 

There, call letters added.


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## Hoxxx (Jun 19, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> _"Don Landis: Would you please post the OTA channels that you are getting guide data? Perhaps it has someting to do with the way these stations are broadcasting PSIP data (yes I know you are getting TMS guide and not PSIP)"_
> 
> 4-1
> 7-1
> ...


Well I dont sub to locals and do not get the guide data for locals

[email protected]


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

I was looking for the call letters of the stations. Also looking for other non LIL subs in the same market with a 921 to see if they too are getting the guide data.


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## motrac (Jan 5, 2003)

Michael P said:


> motrac: Would you please post the OTA channels that you are getting guide data?
> 
> Another question: Do all of you have your phone line connected to the 921?
> 
> ...


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## WildBill (Dec 8, 2004)

I do not subscribe, and no guide info for OTA channels here. Was on vacation and didn't get the free local guide either. Do have a phone line attached. EPG lists "local programming" for the current 1 hr. block, then "no info available" after that. Wish they would extend the "local programming" 1-hr. blocks at least several hours out so that I could select the channel and time for recording from the guide instead of setting manual timers or editing a sat. channel timer. 

Am I wrong, or is Don the only one getting OTA guide data without subscribing or getting the free month?


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Deleted


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

WildBill said:


> Am I wrong, or is Don the only one getting OTA guide data without subscribing or getting the free month?


I also am for all the good it does considering my reception issues. While tinkering with antenna settings and rescanning channels, I had 3 with guide and 1 without. After a power button reset I had 4 with. Have you done a reset since L219?


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

I do a lot of DTV dxing I have had epg from any ota station that comes in that has locals on 110 or 119. I also have epg for 4 of the Jax stations 3 from Orlando. None of the stations I get that dish has on 105 has epg, Sav Ga ,Charleston SC or Columbia SC. 
This started with 215 and is sill going with 219, also had listing in red on 7xxx,8xxx and 9xxx with 215 only


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## bbomar (Oct 18, 2004)

oljim said:


> I do a lot of DTV dxing I have had epg from any ota station that comes in that has locals on 110 or 119. I also have epg for 4 of the Jax stations 3 from Orlando. None of the stations I get that dish has on 105 has epg, Sav Ga ,Charleston SC or Columbia SC.
> This started with 215 and is sill going with 219, also had listing in red on 7xxx,8xxx and 9xxx with 215 only


Do you subscribe to locals?


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

no, locals on 105 I have a d-500


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Folks- If you can't figure it out by the title of the thread, I'll explain it bluntly-

If you subscribe to locals from Dish for the $5.99/ month then *this thread isn't about you. * Go post your pros and cons in other more appropriate threads. 
This thread is for those who wish to post that they also receive OTA guide data after L219 and do NOT subscribe to Locals from DishNetwork, free month or otherwise.


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## chewey (Jul 28, 2004)

I don't sub to locals and now I get guide data. Finally.......


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

What is the secret to getting the free guide data? It this limited to certain cities' stations (Jacksonville)? Perhaps it has something to do to which satellite the LIL service is on (119 vs 110). It's clear that 105 & 121 cities do not appear. I'm in the Cleveland DMA which is at 110. With 215 I also had on of the Pitttsburgh stations scanned (also at 110). Youngstown stations (at 121) do not appear. With 219 I get nothing in the way of guide data


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## WildBill (Dec 8, 2004)

I went through the standard procedures after the 219 update: deleted OTA channels, power cord reboot, added OTA channels manually. Still no guide data. Thought it might be due to the fact that my locals are on 105 here and I don't have a superdish, but that can't be the whole story since Michael P has locals on 110 and doesn't get the guide data either.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> What is the secret to getting the free guide data? It this limited to certain cities' stations (Jacksonville)? Perhaps it has something to do to which satellite the LIL service is on (119 vs 110). It's clear that 105 & 121 cities do not appear. I'm in the Cleveland DMA which is at 110. With 215 I also had on of the Pitttsburgh stations scanned (also at 110). Youngstown stations (at 121) do not appear. With 219 I get nothing in the way of guide data


First of all you'll need both 110 and the satellite where your local's 3 day guide resides on. Second the PSIP data from your local stations must correctly identify themselves so that dishlinux software can map them. However even when those conditions are met some non-subs still don't receive the guide info while others do. Therefore L219 still has hidden flaws that's allowing guide assignment for some customers. It's DN wish that you *not* receive it.

For the lucky ones that are getting guide I say keep it under your hat, you don't want the dish engineers to create another "L216/L218 situation" again.


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## madbrain (Dec 10, 2004)

Does anyone in the SF bay area get guide data and not subscribe to locals ?

I haven't unsubscribed my locals yet but would like to know what's going to happen before I do.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

madbrain said:


> Does anyone in the SF bay area get guide data and not subscribe to locals ?
> 
> I haven't unsubscribed my locals yet but would like to know what's going to happen before I do.


The only thing we know is that there is much uncertainty WRT whether you will or will not get guide data if you subscribe to Dish locals. At best the guide data should be considered "buggy" and not a guaranteed feature of subscribing to locals. IMO, one should subscribe to locals for the express purpose of getting DishNetwork to supply you with locals from the analog local channels because you are unable to receive local stations for free. Then if you get some of the guide data for your local OTA digital channels, you will as the luck of the draw. There is way too much uncertainty to offer any guarantee at this time. Also, we do know that it is the desire of DishNetwork to only offer you guide data for OTA channels you can receive for free IF you pay them for locals you really don't need as you get them via OTA anyway. Because of this fact, you really only are supposed to receive OTA guide data IF you pay the "pig" for them. The fact that many of us are receiving the OTA guide data without paying the "pig" is simply a fact of the 921 software code that just doesn't work the way they intend it to. By the private e-mails I have received, many get the data without subscribing but considering the knowledge of the goals of DishNetwork marketing, these people are most reluctant to post their "bonus" on this forum factually for fear that E* will continue to work aggressively and eventually be successful in achieving their marketing goals and they will lose their desired "free" guide data. I also suspect that many won't even tell me privately that they get that "free" data because they know I don't care and will make it known that the problem is wide spread. I do believe that the problem of giving away a service free is actually much more prevalent than is indicated here.
In any case, even those that are getting paid guide data are still getting it flawed, i.e. missing channels and missing data for channels they do get. Since I have OTA from the DirecTV service with the HDTIVO, I know that all the OTA channels and subchannels supply OTA guide data via the TMS service and the fact that when it is paid for the data from DishNetwork is still incomplete. It is not that the service is incomplete but rather that DishNetwork just doesn't do it right as compared to their competition.

I suggest that if you decide to pay the "pig" and expect complete and flawless guide data as what you are paying for, do it, and then call the CSR's and bug the heck out of them so that formal complaints will be on record and request refunds for incomplete delivery of service. The only way we have ever seen a bug get corrected is if it affects DishNetwork revenues. A good way to force this is to subscribe, then, when service is not delivered request a refund.

Note: "pig" is a reference I use that DishNetwork started 2.5 years ago where they called cable companies "pigs" because of their pricing and rate policies. It was a "stop feeding the pig" marketing campaign. It is my opinion that DishNetwork has adopted most of the same "pig" policies so if the shoe fits...


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## gsartori (Jul 13, 2004)

As I wrote in a separate thread yesterday I got the guide (I don't pay for local and never will) for several hours but during that time frame I lost all my foreigner channels. I called DISH and they told me only "we are having problems with the 921 and some channels". I realized later other channels were gone too. With the guide I even recorded everybody loves Raymond. At 10pm the missing (they looked unsubscribed) channels came back and the guide disappeared. They are evidently working on something. You guys probably didn't notice this because you don't have/watch foreigner channels.
Gabriele


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## gsartori (Jul 13, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> Note: "pig" is a reference I use that DishNetwork started 2.5 years ago where they called cable companies "pigs" because of their pricing and rate policies. It was a "stop feeding the pig" marketing campaign. It is my opinion that DishNetwork has adopted most of the same "pig" policies so if the shoe fits...


They are worse than the PIG, I never had similar experiences with the cable companies. Out of the blue they called me Thursday and Friday once a day for two days. I took a small vacation and I was out. Without me calling them back for what is probably question of life or death to their eyes, they disconnected all my channels on all three TV. You may think I didn't pay my bill. No, nothing like that, I've been a customer for almost 10 years (one of the very first) and my bills are directly paid by the bank, my only fault was that since I don't have an analog telephone line I don't have the telephone connected, I didn't call them back immediately after they called me twice because I was out of the house. 
Once on the phone they harassed me and treated me like a subhuman. I think that if the phone line is so important to them they should put a free analog line for me, wire my house and put the plugs on all 3 receivers. Since I prepaid for my service they can't take my money and disconnect me. Naturally I never sign the contract so I never accepted what they say about the phone line (and in 9 years they never disconnected me), while they promised to me features on a $1000 receiver that never worked right and never had the promised features implemented. In my modest opinion this is material for lawyers, I don't know what we are waiting for a class action lawsuit, not for personal reward but just to teach to DISH how to treat the customers.

Regards
G.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

gsartori said:


> ... they disconnected all my channels on all three TV. You may think I didn't pay my bill. No, nothing like that...
> 
> Once on the phone they harassed me and treated me like a subhuman. I think that if the phone line is so important to them they should put a free analog line for me...
> 
> ...


A phone line is not required for the 921 and even on the units that require phones lines they should disconnect but merely bill you for dual receiver fee.

My thoughts are this is a special case, possibly where someone else has perhaps cloned one of your receivers (used your R00# or S00#) and they needed to isolate you from them. So they may have shut off both to see who complains.

Try to investigate the situation further and also you are entitled to a credit for the 3 days of non-service.


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## gsartori (Jul 13, 2004)

jergenf said:


> My thoughts are this is a special case, possibly where someone else has perhaps cloned one of your receivers (used your R00# or S00#) and they needed to isolate you from them. So they may have shut off both to see who complains..


When I called the first time I spoke with a Lady that wasn't a lady at all. Very unpolite, very aggressive. Yesterday I called again the same "special number" they gave me and I found a nice guy, here is the deal:

They found out that a lot of people rent multiple receivers and than split them with friends so each additional household pay only $5/month. For these few, they now harass all the people with multiple RX and no phone line, they want you to read for each receiver the serial number, the SW version and a few other things that are on the display at the info page. All this to check if the receivers are really in your house. This is really stupid because people can get smart and write down these data 2 or 3 times every year in case they call. Once more DISH knows how to make the customers mad for futile reason. In order to get a few that are doing the game they p.off all the others.

Regards
G.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

This is not specific to the 921 or even the topic of this thread. Can a moderator move posts 39-41 to the Audit Team Discussion thread in the General Dish Network™ Discussion forum?


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## gsartori (Jul 13, 2004)

BobaBird said:


> This is not specific to the 921 or even the topic of this thread. Can a moderator move posts 39-41 to the Audit Team Discussion thread in the General Dish Network™ Discussion forum?


What is not specific? THe 921 local programming guide is not specific?

G.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

gsartori said:


> They found out that a lot of people rent multiple receivers and than split them with friends so each additional household pay only $5/month.
> Regards
> G.


Thanks for the explaination. Does that just apply to people that rent extra boxes or even thoses that buy them outright?

My guess is they would probably call soon after a software update just to keep them on their toes.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

gsartori said:


> What is not specific? THe 921 local programming guide is not specific?


Sure it is. But I just re-read posts 39-41 and see no mention of the guide. The current approach being taken for phone line audits is a far more wide-spread problem than the 921's EPG and is being discussed for all subscribers in the General Dish area. This forum is limited to 921 support issues and the way OTA EPG is being withheld from the 921 and 942 but not the 811 is just as ugly in its own way.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

> This is really stupid because people can get smart and write down these data 2 or 3 times every year in case they call.


Nope - that doesn't work. The data is changed immediately prior to them calling you.

But BobaBird is right - it's off-topic here.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

:backtotop
I'm getting my 3rd refurb shipped to me as I write. Last time around I scanned in my OTA's before activating and plugged in the phone line. The following morning I caught the new 921 "phoning home" (no I did not make any PPV purchases). I did not get the guide data on that unit. I wonder if having the phone line connected had anything to do with my not getting the guide data?

BTW: It died within one month (hard drive crash that was unrepairable - the HD was excessivly noisy out of the box).


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

MichaelP Don't think so as I always keep my phone line connected. I would like to just chalk this up to software programming that is typical of the 921. i.e. inconsistent, not guaranteed, and what you have is what you got. Beyond rebooting, they have no clue on how to fix anything.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

We've go to figure out what the winning combination is. Is it related to the broadcast stations (which city's locals get the free guide), HECD vs HEED, Phone line vs no phone line etc.?

It's the same s/w, unless they have different versions for HECD and HEED. Something has to surface as the variant that gives the free guide. 

I wonder if anybody is getting just guide data for OOM stations? After all that is what 215 was supposed to fix. I happened to have a Pittsburg station scanned when 215 spooled. Even tough the skip was no longer up I was able to see that station's guide data until the hard drive crashed   .

The only OOM stations I get with any regularity are Youngstown stations. The guide data never appeared on 215 or any other s/w version. Youngstown is on Superdish 121.

I see you are HECD. I wonder if all the others who are getting the free guide data are also HECD? I hope the refurb I'm getting is an HECD (so far I've had 3 HEED's).


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

HECD versus HEED does not matter (people with both have reported local guide).
And neither does phone line matter. See my earlier post in quotes.
Don't know if this applies to "Out of Market" (outside DMA) locals.



jergenf said:


> First of all you'll need both 110 and the satellite where your local's 3 day guide resides on. Second the PSIP data from your local stations must correctly identify themselves so that dishlinux software can map them. However even when those conditions are met some non-subs still don't receive the guide info while others do. Therefore L219 still has hidden flaws that's allowing guide assignment for some customers. It's DN wish that you *not* receive it.
> 
> For the lucky ones that are getting guide I say keep it under your hat, you don't want the dish engineers to create another "L216/L218 situation" again.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

Someone on another thread stated that they never subbed to LIL and had guide data. They did have AT-180, Superstations, and distant nets. Do any of you have distants? Perhaps that's the key. Unfortunately not many qualify for DNS.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Michael P said:


> Do any of you have distants? Perhaps that's the key.


Not related to distant locals or superstations. If it was AT180 then I would think allot more would be affected.

I have a theory (and this is just a shot in the dark) it may be more likely due to people having satellite locations other than 119/110 (for example 105 or 121). The software may overlook this situation as less of a threat as one would probably have had to subscribed to locals to even have those sats.

But if any non-subs that only has a dish500 is receiving them then so much for that theory. Or even if their 3 day guide resides on 105 or 121 in which they have superdishes and they're *not* getting guide info then that would create questions as to why there are inconsistancies. The same would apply for 61.5 and 148 wing situations where their 3 day guide resides there.

And if it isn't that, maybe DN is rewarding some customers. 
The squeeky wheel gets the grease.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

jergenf said:


> But if any non-subs that only has a dish500 is receiving them then so much for that theory.


I fit in that category.

I haven't squeaked directly to dish (DNS is far more important than OTA guide or even the OTA digital channels themselves) so I don't think I'm being rewarded.


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

> DNS is far more important than OTA guide or even the OTA digital channels themselves


 Hmmm... Reading between the lines here. Perhaps having DNS is the key to the "free" OTA guide? After all DNS contains the major broadcast networks. Perhaps a subscription to DNS = LIL to the software.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

BobaBird said:


> DNS is far more important than OTA guide or even the OTA digital channels themselves.


Please define "DNS"... thanks


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## motrac (Jan 5, 2003)

jergenf said:


> Please define "DNS"... thanks


Distant Network Stations


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

DNS = Distant Network Service, for those who live (or lie about living) in "white areas".

It's the big-4 networks in SD from NYC, LA, ATL which are "CONUS". They can only be sold to people who cannot get a grade B signal OTA from any affilliate regardless of DMA

i.e. a viewer lives in DMA "X" which either has no CBS or the CBS is not reaching to his house. A CBS from DMA "Y" does reach the viewer's location. That viewer is not in a white area for CBS. OTOH if there is no CBS form anywhere reaching the viewer's location than that viewer is in a white area for CBS and is allowed to subscribe to one of the three big city CBS stations. In a few cases all 4 networks are truely "white", in which case that viewer can get all his network TV from the big cities.

Some viewers will "move" to white areas just to get DNS. ("move" - in quotes means they don't physically move, they just change their service address to a white area)

Without judging these "movers" I observed that having DNS may be the key to the "free" OTA guide. Unless there is someone out there who is getting the free OTA guide without subscribing _in any way_ to NBC, CBS, ABC or FOX.


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Some of the customers that are getting guide data have reported that they don't subsrcibe to locals or distant locals. With superstations some have them while others don't.

Also distant locals are not free and I believe you can only subscribe to *just one*: either NYC locals or LA locals or your nearest DMA. At least one had stated that he never received locals (even the free month due to L216 screwup) at any time in the past.

In a nutshells some are getting free guide while others are not. For those that are it doesn't seem to point to any particular dish arrangement. For example it doesn't matter if you have dish500 only, dish500 with wing dish or superdish installed. Can't seem to isolated to any particular package either for example some just have HDPak/Voom while other have EverythingPak with HDPak/Voom. 
I think everyone has at least HDPak but that's to be expected for anyone that has a HD receiver.

Is any of the lucky ones also seeing their *LiL* (7000-9000) list in red? Some have stated that this was missing when back during L215 it first appeared. Possible pattern?


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## motrac (Jan 5, 2003)

jergenf said:


> I think everyone has at least HDPak but that's to be expected for anyone that has a HD receiver.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I don't!


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

motrac said:


> jergenf said:
> 
> 
> > I think everyone has at least HDPak but that's to be expected for anyone that has a HD receiver.
> ...


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I think it is a waste of time to try to find a pattern on this bug. Let Eldon worry about it!


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

This is one "bug" that I want!


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

I saw no aparent change with the new software version. Still no OTA guide.

To the lucky ones who have a free OTA guide, do you still have it under 270?


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## madbrain (Dec 10, 2004)

I can confirm that after canceling both LIL and Dish service, my OTA EPG is gone .


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

madbrain said:


> I can confirm that after canceling both LIL and Dish service, my OTA EPG is gone .


The digital OTA channels are still mapped into your EPG even if no guide info is supplied? So you can still use the 921 for viewing/recording OTA digital stations, correct?


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## madbrain (Dec 10, 2004)

jergenf said:


> The digital OTA channels are still mapped into your EPG even if no guide info is supplied? So you can still use the 921 for viewing/recording OTA digital stations, correct?


Yes. However, the broadcasts are recorded as "unknown local event" in the recorded events list, with a hardcoded time and date ! That makes it quite hard to see what's what when all the items in the events list say the same thing !
Incompetence or malice ? I vote for the later, because with the Dish subscription even without LIL subscription, the callsign, recording times were there.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

madbrain-

The reason for your observations is this-
The PSIP data sets are multifold. meaning that there are parts of the PSIP standard that are required by the FCC and additional parts that have only been adopted by the ATSC signal standards. ATSC is what defines the digital broadcast signal and PSIP is a set of standards that only define additions to the digital broadcast signal. Parts of PSIP were added to the ATSC standard just recently and made a requirement by the FCC. It was done in two parts. The first part are the station call letters, the clock and remap channel information. About 9 months later program guide information was made a requirement as well but only a part of the entire PSIP standard was adopted. Here is where it gets sticky.

Understand there are two local broadcast signals being sent, 3 if you count your cable system's fiber. One you receive via your roof top antenna, and the other that is uplinked to the bird which is the one that DBS accesses and uses for your subscribbed channel. The 921 and other receivers are equipped to receive the two types of local channels, one you pay for and receive like all the other sat channels with your sat tuner and a second that is received via your roof top antenna. The FCC (IMHO) screwed up when they adopted the second part of the PSIP standard for program information. They made the local broadcast stations publish in the data set that is muxed to the data stream, 8 hours of program information (remember that amount) But, what they did not require is for the receivers to display the data from PSIP. In a statement from the FCC, they said that they hoped that the providers of ATSC tuners (921 is in this camp) will add the new PSIP feature of program information to the featureset in good faith. If the tuner providers do not do this on good faith suggestion, they will revisit the situation and address it with an additional requirement in the FCC approvals for receiving equipment. 
So, there you have the screwup. The FCC decided to require broadcast stations to send the program data (8 hours) but not require the receivers to receive it. {In February of 2005} Each receiver provider did it differently. DirecTV's TIVO just added the program guide data from the Tribune information services and the HD TIVO displays its full guide data for all channels required accurately and as it is published in the TV GUIDE. Dish Network, also supplies the full guide data but in their case they make it an option where they sell the information to you as an add on to your monthly subscription and they implement it by tieing it to your locals into locals subscription tier. Meaning that IF you pay for locals into locals, you will get the guide data turned on for your 921's off air signal as well as the satellite channel locals. With DishNetwork, it is a paid service. with DirecTV is is free, so to speak. 

Now let's review what I said earlier about PSIP. First understand this has nothing to do with the satellite uplink, nor does it have to do with the Tribune Media service guide data. PSIP is sent by the station directly to you via your rooftop antenna signal only. The minimum requirement is for just 8 hours of data. If that is all your station sends then you would still not be able to use that guide method of timer recording or even know what airs more than 8 hours into the future. It is extremely limited at the minimum. BUT< PSIP standard offers far more so a station may voluntarily populate the PSIP tables out to the full capability of your 921's receiver design, same as you get now with the sat channels. But since the FCC did not require this, only 8 hours, each channel in your community could have different ammounts of data present if the 921 software engineers implemented PSIP guide for your off air tuner. 

In the past, some people who did subscribe to locals into locals with DishNetwork, failed to get the guide populated as others did. That was apparently a bug in the software of the 921 and not a normal DishNetwork policy. Others got the guide data and did not subscribe to locals into locals. While I know what triggers this event, I'm not at liberty to say. It is apparently nothing you would have control over so consider it a crack in the marketing system they did at DishNetwork to sell you guide data. 

What I suggest you all do who feel you have a right to receive at minimum the PSIP FCC required 8 hours of guide data, write to them (FCC) and file a formal complaint that Dish is not in good faith passing on the required PSIP data from the local stations in their 921 receiver. You may state that you understand that this is not a requirement that the receivers do this but you want them to consider making it mandatory. 

Also, FYI- In the FCC proposal, it was suggested that a receiver maker may option to select an equal to or better than service as a substitute for PSIP. This means that all DishNetwork would need to do to remain in the favored eye of the FCC would be to just do as DirecTV for their subscribers did and turn on the Tribune Media service for ALL 921 users, not just the LIL subscribers. They wouldn't even need to worry about redoing the software to populate the guide grid from PSIP if the option remained in the regulation.

Remember, E* is always submitting proposals to the FCC for approval and they would not be thought of very favorable if the commissioner knew that they refused to implement a suggestion to comply from them. BUT, the FCC will not consider if no one complains. You have to decide if this is worth your time to write a letter to the FCC with copies to your local representative and state senators or just write complaints here on dbstalks where no one really cares.


My suggestion to E* engineering was to implement the PSIP minimum as suggested by the FCC and then offer the Tribune Media full service for a nominal $ per month because it would be guaranteed to be the full guide info that they provide and not just 8 hours. The way it would work is the PSIP is on all the time but is replaced in the grid with TMS data when you sub to it. It would still require a software mod to implement and possibly a smart card tier switch.


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