# The SDTV shutdown mess is just beginning



## samhevener

The rushed shutdown mess will just get worse with the 100% shutdown date of Feb 17, 2009 being extended. Congress is already hearing from the viewers and want to create a "DTV czar". The following news story is of interest. Edit: (Tom Robertson) the original article at Multichannel news: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6531873.html


> Washington - Senate Commerce Committee chairman Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii) and House Energy and Commerce Committee John Dingell (D-Mich.) sent President Bush a letter asking him to create a digital TV transition task force headed by Federal Communications Commission chairman Kevin Martin.
> 
> "A coordinated federal effort to oversee the transition is essential," the lawmakers said in a letter dated Feb. 8. Both lawmakers fear too many consumers are ill-informed about the most important shift in broadcast TV since the introduction of color pictures decades ago.
> ...


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## twaller

One correction.....SDTV will not be shut down, it will be with us for many, many years to come. What is being shut down is analog broadcasting. The OTA DTV broadcasts will have PLENTY of standard def content.


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## bidger

What's the big deal? If you rely on an antenna for programming, apply for the certificate for a converter box if you can't afford to get an HDTV.


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## scooper

Sam, Sam, Sam - HOW many times do we have to keep hitting you in the face with facts ?

Trust me - people WILL know by the end of the month - the twice a day 30 second PSAs will start on Feb 18th, running every day until shutdown, on every full power broadcaster. The only ones who won't know are those that don't watch TV anyway.

I'm getting REALLY TIRED of you're acting like Chicken Little on this.


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## Earl Bonovich

Also with WalMart now carrying the converter boxes...
Soon followed by other mega-chains.

Best Buy / Circuit city are going to get into the game...

And it is also expected that the major "Big Box" hardware stores are also going to carry it.

Grocery stores are also planning to carry the converter boxes.


Our local news broadcast since the start of the year, right after the weather... has a reminder that things are going to change...

And I expect that is just going to increase as time goes on.

To the national broadcasts, with scrollers so people can just skip over the ads.

As the year goes on... if you are actually "watching" your TV... it is going to be hard to miss.

At the end of the day... yes, there are going to be people that didn't believe it would happen... didn't know... or just didn't convert.

It's going to happen.
If the law makers are going to delay it... again (what would this be the 4th time?) It will be a joke.... Things reach a time that they simply must be done.

EchoStar is relesing their converter which is going to cost LESS then the coupon... that is free for up to two boxes... you can't get much cheaper then that.


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## Upstream

They're not going to extend it.

Too much planning is invested into this date to change it again. We still have an entire year for consumers to get their converter boxes and get ready for the change.

Although there may be some consumers unprepared for the change next year, no matter how often they change the date there will be people unprepared. There is nothing that would be done differently if the date were moved to 2010.

Changing the date would not make the transistion smoother. It would just make the transistion later.


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## SteveHas

right on
If anyone is unprepared for the conversion a year from now, they simply aren't TV watchers.
Too Bad

I agree with Earl, another delay from congress would be a joke,
I also think a Fed HDTV Czar would be a diasaster

still, I'm willing to wager that the next year will begin to a have y2k feel to it


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## tcusta00

We covered this in another thread too... people will get their converter box coupons (and turn them in for boxes) as long as ONLY THOSE WHO NEED THEM are applying for them. Chicken little is right!



samhevener said:


> It's true you don't need the DTV adapters if you have cable or satellite. Apply for your 2 coupons while you can.


Yes, there _will_ be a problem if people that don't need coupons are applying for them and encouraging others that don't need them to apply for them...

*
Be part of the solution!*

And stop with the :beatdeadhorse:


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## n3ntj

Looks like the confusion among consumers exists right in this very threat. Standard Definition (SD) is not shutting down, but rather the analog transmission is shutting down. All transmissions will be digital after Feb 2009, and some will be HD and some will be SD.


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## Satsince1978

All our local TV stations are running info about the upcoming change during all of there newscasts! So if you watch the news here in South Bend, IN, you know about it!


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## Phil T

I got a call from the father of one of my high school friends in Ohio. I installed a OTA antenna on his roof 37 years ago (it still works). He is in his 80's and he wanted to know what he needed to do for the digital switchover.

I know he has Dish Network. His son bought it for him a few years ago.

I asked him two questions. Was he planning to purchase a new TV anytime soon? Answer no.

Was he planning on keeping his Dish Network service? Answer yes.

I told him you have to do nothing. He was a happy camper!!!

He did tell me next time I am in Ohio, to get that ugly antenna off his roof!


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## Nick

Y2K, Part deux - _"The sky is falling!"_


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## SteveHas

Nick said:


> Y2K, Part deux - _"The sky is falling!"_


:lol:


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## Earl Bonovich

tcusta00 said:


> We covered this in another thread too... people will get their converter box coupons (and turn them in for boxes) as long as ONLY THOSE WHO NEED THEM are applying for them. Chicken little is right!
> 
> Yes, there _will_ be a problem if people that don't need coupons are applying for them and encouraging others that don't need them to apply for them...


What defines "needing" them.

Since it is "all" our tax dollars that are going into these coupons... should we all have access to them?

I personally don't "need" any converter boxes...

However my grandfather/grandmother need 4.

Why shouldn't I apply for my two coupons... he gets his two...
And thus we get the four that he needs....

At the end of the day, we are not talking mega expensive boxes here.

Wouldn't surprise me, if we start to see some of them sub $25 eventually.


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## RobertE

I wish I had a $1 for every time a customer asks me if they need to go out and buy a new HD tv for the Feb 09 switch.


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## Phil T

RobertE said:


> I wish I had a $1 for every time a customer asks me if they need to go out and buy a new HD tv for the Feb 09 switch.


Best Buy hopes for $3000.00+


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## Tom Robertson

Way, way back in 2000, then FCC chairman Powell suggested a DTV Task Force. Didn't review all the history so I don't know what happened to that suggestion.

Will the Sky actually fall? Not for me, I'm well set. As is all of my family. (Tho they could do more and I'll be making a few suggestions.)

How many households are broadcast OTA only? Very interesting question with wide ranging answers. NAB, in the OP's article, claims 17% by ignoring that 6 million of those homes are not OTA only--just have "a OTA only TV". Neilsen puts the current figure at about 10.2% OTA only, way down in less than two years.

I would like to see the coupons extended in some fashion. With everyone required to order their coupons so soon after the PSA really start, and they expire in July, that is a long time before the transistion. For what purpose?

But do not count on the transition being extended. That ain't very likely.

Cheers,
Tom


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## samhevener

The coupons for those of us who registered already should be sent out next week if all goes according to plan (which it won't). I'm interested in the Dish TR-40 adapter that will sell for $40.00 or less but it's not due out until May. Does that mean that if I do get my coupons next week they will be useless in May (over 60 days)?


samhevener said:


> The rushed shutdown mess will just get worse with the 100% shutdown date of Feb 17, 2009 being extended. Congress is already hearing from the viewers and want to create a "DTV czar". The following news story is of interest. Edit: (Tom Robertson) the original article at Multichannel news: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6531873.html


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## Upstream

Sam -- the coupons are good for 90 days after they are mailed. But they are not tied to specific converters. They are good for the converters that are available for sale at the time they are mailed. 

If someone releases a new converter in 2010, you cannot use the coupon at that time either.


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## scooper

The coupons are good for any of the approved CECBs that you can find. And it is for 90 days, not just 60 days.


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## tcusta00

Earl Bonovich said:


> What defines "needing" them.
> 
> Since it is "all" our tax dollars that are going into these coupons... should we all have access to them?


Here's the answer from dtv2009.gov:


https://dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx said:


> Are all consumers eligible for the coupon program?
> 
> Yes, but supplies are limited. There are 22.25 million coupons available to all U.S. households. Once those coupons have been used, there are an additional 11.25 million coupons available only to households that solely receive their TV broadcasts over-the-air using an antenna. Households with TVs connected to cable, satellite or other pay TV service are not eligible for this second batch of coupons. Consumers can apply for coupons until March 31, 2009, or until the funds are exhausted.


I disagree with people who take advantage of government programs not meant for them. My opinion.

I think this program is creating very big gray area of what's right and wrong. You, Earl, are applying for coupons for boxes that will be used immediately. I think this is a gray area where you have to personally assess the need. Some other people on this board are encouraging people to apply for the coupons "just in case" they may be needed in the future even though there's no immediate need. I think this is bordering on the edge of the gray area. Yeah, it's all our tax dollars,but by the same token my tax dollars are paying for food stamps - doesn't mean I should go get them if I don't need them.

Like you said, when it comes down to it, the boxes don't cost that much. If there's a need in the future when that "just in case" happens you can go out and get one at that time.


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## jclewter79

Did anybody in here that applied for the coupons have to show income records? This is not the same as food stamps at all. The tax dollar money that was used to create these coupons will more than be replaced by the money that the government receives from selling part of the spectrum.


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## scooper

Absolutely not. 

It asked for name, address, and whether ANY TVs were on pay TV-type service. I answer truthfully. Oh, and how many coupons were you applying for.


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## tcusta00

There will never be consensus on this issue...


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## jclewter79

Same thing it asked me scooper and I also answered truthfully. I would think that if they were not meant for me my application would have been denied.


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## tcusta00

jclewter79 said:


> Same thing it asked me scooper and I also answered truthfully. I would think that if they were not meant for me my application would have been denied.


Ok, I'm not looking to be a wise-guy here, but jclewter and scooper - do you guys have TVs on which these converters will be used?


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## jclewter79

Yes I have two TV's that are older and are OTA only.


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## tcusta00

jclewter79 said:


> Yes I have two TV's that are older and are OTA only.


Then you should be getting the boxes. My argument is with those that won't be using them.


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## scooper

tcusta00 said:


> Ok, I'm not looking to be a wise-guy here, but jclewter and scooper - do you guys have TVs on which these converters will be used?


Yes. Not that its any business of yours, but yes, I do.


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## tcusta00

scooper said:


> Yes. Not that its any business of yours, but yes, I do.


Relax man, it's just a question.


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## Kansas Zephyr

There are 33.5 million coupons.

After 22.25 million are distributed to consumers that have either antenna or cable/satellite, the the remaining 11.25 million are only for those using antenna only.

That's why they ask the question, on the form.

You are not "cheating" until the, first come first served, dollars for everyone are spent. Then you do so only if you lie on the form.

FWIW...You can use the converters to allow your old VCR to record digital off-air, too.


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## jclewter79

It's cool with me tcusta00 that is what this forum is for.


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## samhevener

I checked yesterday at my local Walmart. They had 4 units of a Magnavox converter in stock for $49.95 each. Next to the converter units was a stack of Magnavox DVD players with twice as many features on the remote control as the converter box for only $34.95. I can't believe Walmart has sold all but 4 of the converter boxes before the coupons are sent out. The converter box even had a notice on the outside of the box to use your $40.00 coupon on it and how to get your coupons if you haven't already applied.


samhevener said:


> The rushed shutdown mess will just get worse with the 100% shutdown date of Feb 17, 2009 being extended. Congress is already hearing from the viewers and want to create a "DTV czar". The following news story is of interest. Edit: (Tom Robertson) the original article at Multichannel news: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6531873.html


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## samhevener

What difference does it make? Everyone will get coupons.


tcusta00 said:


> Ok, I'm not looking to be a wise-guy here, but jclewter and scooper - do you guys have TVs on which these converters will be used?


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## Cholly

samhevener said:


> I checked yesterday at my local Walmart. They had 4 units of a Magnavox converter in stock for $49.95 each. Next to the converter units was a stack of Magnavox DVD players with twice as many features on the remote control as the converter box for only $34.95. I can't believe Walmart has sold all but 4 of the converter boxes before the coupons are sent out. The converter box even had a notice on the outside of the box to use your $40.00 coupon on it and how to get your coupons if you haven't already applied.


Sam: I don't understand your comparison of the two units. The complexity of the remotes has nothing to do with the complexity of the units. All you need on the remote for the converter are power button, channel up/down, number buttons and possibly channel recall, info and guide buttons. The guide button would be used to retrieve program info from PSIP which is transmitted by the stations. 
As to the complexity of the box itself, it would need at the very least ATSC tuner, digital to analog converter, audio and video output circuitry, RF modulator (for RF output to the TV receiver) and either optical or coax digital audio output.

Seeing four converter boxes on the shelf is no indicator of the number of units shipped to the store or the number of units that have been sold.


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## scooper

For a up to date check on the coupon program status - http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html


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## tcusta00

samhevener said:


> What difference does it make? Everyone will get coupons.


Um, yeah, I don't think so Sam.

According to 2005 numbers from the Census Bureau there were 113 million households in America. There are 33 million coupons. Assuming people request an average of 1.5 coupons per household, that's less than a quarter of households getting one.

EVERYONE will not get one.

These are meant for people who will use them, not to be hoarded for a rainy day. That's my point. You all can do what you want but the program will be over utilized and is already underfunded because the government miscalculated how many people will be getting boxes that won't use them and don't have a need for them. Classic government move - they assume that programs like this won't be abused and create an instant deficit.


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## Tom Robertson

There are many interesting scenarios.

I don't need any. I'm well covered with my DIRECTV account.
My daughter is likewise covered, I think.
My Son's family is harder to say. They have cable for most but not all of there TVs. They might need a couple, hard to know this far in advance.

The grand-tibbers are in similar situations. They might need one or two, hard to know.

The really tricky one is my mother-in-law. Today she doesn't need one. But between now and the DTV transition she might make a transition of her own--into a nursing home where she might need a converter or she might not.

I won't be ordering any for myself, but I will likely order one for my mother-in-law rather than trying to help her do the ordering. (She is a resident within our in-law appt. of our house.)

At this point I am not worried about there not being enough coupons. I am worried that the coupon ordering process closes so soon after the PSAs really get started. And so soon after that they expire before the manufacturers can really crank up production. I expect those dates to extend.

I do not expect the transition date to extend.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Cholly

FWIW -- I'm inclined to believe that the gov'ts rationale was to make sure that each household had at least one TV that will work when the transition comes. Seems to me that that's about all that's necessary. More than one would be nice, but not necessary in the gov'ts eye.


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## Tom Robertson

I think the government was a bit more interested than just one TV, the rhetoric I've seen seems to imply helping those who really can't afford new TVs and to spur development of the converters. Once that has been accomplished, prices will fall so most people can get the rest they need over time at prices they can afford.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Lord Vader

scooper said:


> Sam, Sam, Sam - HOW many times do we have to keep hitting you in the face with facts ?
> 
> Trust me - people WILL know by the end of the month - the twice a day 30 second PSAs will start on Feb 18th, running every day until shutdown, on every full power broadcaster. The only ones who won't know are those that don't watch TV anyway.


And those who by February 2009 are NOT aware of this are too stupid to be allowed to watch TV anyway.


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## tcusta00

Tom Robertson said:


> ...the rhetoric I've seen seems to imply helping those who really can't afford new TVs and to spur development of the converters.


We all pretty much knew that it was to help people out but I hadn't thought of the second explanation... that makes a lot of sense.


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## spartanstew

Sitting in my hotel room in Dayton and they ran a story regarding the conversion. HERE'S A LINK

A few things caught my eye:

"One year from now, anyone still using an analog tv will be seeing snow"

"Even if you don't use an outdoor antenna or rabbit ears, you still might need a converter, depending on when you bought your tv.
Did you buy your tv before 1998?..You did, well you definitely need something. The second is when you bought your television if your television was bought 1998 to 2005 to 2006 was it hd built in or was it HD ready?"

The reporter told people that they HAD to have a converter if their TV was purchased before 1998, no matter how they receive TV. She also said that even if they bought their TV between 1998 and 2006, if it didn't have HD built in, they'd also need a converter. They then listed the number for obtaining a coupon.


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## Tom Robertson

The Consumer Electronics Association brief for last thursday indicated that retail salespeople were wrong 30% of the time in their recommendations about the transition. 

And now we're seeing the TV spots are just as likely to be wrong to.


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## tcusta00

Tom Robertson said:


> The Consumer Electronics Association brief for last thursday indicated that retail salespeople were wrong 30% of the time in their recommendations about the transition.
> 
> And now we're seeing the TV spots are just as likely to be wrong to.


Retail sales people only affect a few people at a time with their misinformation - unfortunately the media reaches thousands if not millions, depending on the outlet. There needs to be some accountability!


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## jclewter79

Beleive me everybody will get covered. Coupons will be extended or more will be released if needed. The government will do what is needed. The rules allowed me to receive two coupons even thought I do have a third tv with dish network. I did not lie and was within the rules. Lets not forget that a portion of the spectrum will be sold to private investors. They are paying for these coupons, pure and simple. Our tax money may be fronting the coupon program until the private money comes in but, in the end private money is funding this program. I think the governement is doing this to make things go smoother and to look like they care, that is all this is. I wonder if anybody in here plans on returning those tax rebate checks we got coming later this year you know because you don't need them.


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## tcusta00

jclewter79 said:


> I wonder if anybody in here plans on returning those tax rebate checks we got coming later this year you know because you don't need them.


You're comparing apples and oranges...


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## jclewter79

Am I? In both cases the government is not required to do anything at all. They doing these things to keep people quite and happy.


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## D*HR-20

jclewter79 said:


> Am I? In both cases the government is not required to do anything at all. They doing these things to keep people quite and happy.


Wrong! The tax rebate checks have nothing to do with keeping us "quite" (which by the way quite what? quite happy maybe? It is quiet) and happy. They are doing them hoping we will spend the money to help stimulate the economy.


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## jclewter79

That was a terrible analogy I am sorry I used it. I do have a reply for you but I will keep it to myself. I apoligize for getting off the original subject.


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## Tom Robertson

jclewter79,

Nice way to steer back to topic. I think I understood the intent of your analogy, didn't seem too far off topic at all.

Thanks for trying and for creatively making intriguing conversation,
Tom


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## jclewter79

No problem Tom, I just wanna play nice.


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## samhevener

Either the switchover will be delayed or everyone will get coupons later in which case the switchover will still be delayed. Another 2 or 3 years will allow more older Tvs to wear out and be replaced by the newer DVTV tuner models. This was the original plan until someone got greedy (TV broadcasters). I know I've heard the old con that the first responders need the frequencies. There will be a day the 100% switch over will happen but it won't be on Feb 17, 2009. I'll bet money on that.


jclewter79 said:


> Beleive me everybody will get covered. Coupons will be extended or more will be released if needed. The government will do what is needed. The rules allowed me to receive two coupons even thought I do have a third tv with dish network. I did not lie and was within the rules. Lets not forget that a portion of the spectrum will be sold to private investors. They are paying for these coupons, pure and simple. Our tax money may be fronting the coupon program until the private money comes in but, in the end private money is funding this program. I think the governement is doing this to make things go smoother and to look like they care, that is all this is. I wonder if anybody in here plans on returning those tax rebate checks we got coming later this year you know because you don't need them.


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## jclewter79

I guess we will see. I just think the private money is banking on it happening way to much. If it were going to be dalayed again it would have been by now.


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## Kansas Zephyr

samhevener said:


> Either the switchover will be delayed or everyone will get coupons later in which case the switchover will still be delayed. Another 2 or 3 years will allow more older Tvs to wear out and be replaced by the newer DVTV tuner models. This was the original plan until someone got greedy (TV broadcasters). I know I've heard the old con that the first responders need the frequencies. There will be a day the 100% switch over will happen but it won't be on Feb 17, 2009. I'll bet money on that.


If your are a betting man, I'll take it. How much?

First, it's not a switch. With very few exceptions, all full-power TV stations are broadcasting both an analog and digital channel. So, at midnight 2/28/09 the full-power analog gets turned off. That's a cut-off, not a switch.

It's costing local broadcasters to run two transmitters. They didn't want digital. There is no compensation for the cost of conversion. Can you imagine building a business for about 50 years, then have Uncle Sam tell you to toss everything out? For a local TV station to be HDTV from stem to stern, everything must go. There are no "converters" to upgrade cameras (studio and portable), video tape machines, microwave live news trucks, satellite trucks, etc. to HD. All done without a dime from the "outside". Then multiply that times every local TV station. Wow!

The feds want digital, to free up spectrum, to sell it. They want the money, so they made the deadline.

Plus, >80% of residents are using cable or satellite. Cable providers are required to down-convert as long as they have any analog service until 2/12 (and that may get extended). So, for the vast majority of viewers the cut-off means nothing.

Two or three more years means nothing. Heck, I've had great working TVs that were 20+ years old.

I think the cut-off will not change.


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## scooper

I'll take that bet too, Sam . All Full power off on Febuary 17 2009, all other analog transmitters within 2 years of that date.

It isn't the broadcasters idea to do the conversion - and if you were spending money to provide the same programming twice - wouldn't YOU want to minimize your spending ?


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## scooper

BTW - Kansas Zephyr - the mandate is for DIGITAL, not High Definition - but you're probably aware of that. Stations can take their curent analog programming and just convert it to 4:3 480i on a single stream and be within standards.


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## dave1234

The title of this thread is completely inaccurate IMHO.

It should read: The SDTV shutdown mess if now coming to an end.

A mess it was, but it's finally getting cleaned up and resolved. All will be done by next Feb.


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## Kansas Zephyr

scooper said:


> BTW - Kansas Zephyr - the mandate is for DIGITAL, not High Definition - but you're probably aware of that. Stations can take their curent analog programming and just convert it to 4:3 480i on a single stream and be within standards.


Yep. I know that.

But, the pressure is on locals to provide news and local programming in HD, be able to run HD syndicated programming as it becomes available to them, and not just pass the network's HD programming.


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## Kansas Zephyr

scooper said:


> All Full power off on Febuary 17 2009, all other analog transmitters within 2 years of that date.


At this time, the FCC as NO analog cut-off date for low power, Class A, and translator TV stations.


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## Tom Robertson

dave1234 said:


> The title of this thread is completely inaccurate IMHO.
> 
> It should read: The SDTV shutdown mess if now coming to an end.
> 
> A mess it was, but it's finally getting cleaned up and resolved. All will be done by next Feb.


The OP felt (and probably still feels) the transition is still a mess so we'll let him dictate the title. I will be very happy to adjust it according to his wishes and feelings.

All that said, I do feel that things are in Ok shape. Many people will be fine, upwards of 90-95% seems like a good guess to me depending on how well the stations get their updates to the FCC and Satellite companies in a timely fashion.

[strike]More people should know about the coupons. I just told some members of my family today. They knew about the transition, but didn't know about the coupons yet. Coupons they must order in a few weeks or lose them. That is my concern.[/strike]

Edit: I have re-read the FAQs, people have until March 31, 200*9* to order coupons. My bad. There is plenty of time.

Cheers,
Tom


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## jacksonm30354

The transition was already extended a year or 2. They need to stick with the Feb 09 date or it will keep getting extended and extended.


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## Tom Robertson

Yes, there has been a delay. And most recently an advance of the date for all tuners to be digital from July of last year to March. (And the FCC tried to move it up even further, December 2006.)

This time there won't be another delay. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## samhevener

To me and all the retired people out there it's called a "shutdown". If we can't receive our standard NBC, CBS, ABC channels over the air on the TV sets we have used for many years without changing or adding something, it's a shutdown, period. I had mentioned before that I walk with a group of a 100 or so retirees in the mornings. I asked if any knew about the shutdown next year. Only about 2 or 3 told me they did. The others knew nothing about it. We watch TV but we don't watch commercials. Few will see the spots now being shown. I would say that by about Oct or Nov the you know what will hit the fan and Congress will be swamped with calls from irate taxpayers. I wouldn't be surprised that some of the Senators and Representatives that are up for election or re-election will use delaying the "shutdown" as part of their platform. The "shutdown" will then be delayed.


Tom Robertson said:


> The OP felt (and probably still feels) the transition is still a mess so we'll let him dictate the title. I will be very happy to adjust it according to his wishes and feelings.
> 
> All that said, I do feel that things are in Ok shape. Many people will be fine, upwards of 90-95% seems like a good guess to me depending on how well the stations get their updates to the FCC and Satellite companies in a timely fashion.
> 
> More people should know about the coupons. I just told some members of my family today. They knew about the transition, but didn't know about the coupons yet. Coupons they must order in a few weeks or lose them. That is my concern.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


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## samhevener

Your wrong. It hasn't been extended, it's been shortened. The way it transition was first set up was that the changeover would happen when 85% viewers in each meto area owned TV sets with DTV tuners. It didn't count those who received signals via cable or satellite. That was a good transition goal and should not have been changed.


jacksonm30354 said:


> The transition was already extended a year or 2. They need to stick with the Feb 09 date or it will keep getting extended and extended.


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## Nick

dave1234 said:


> The title of this thread is completely inaccurate IMHO.
> 
> It should read: The SDTV shutdown mess if now coming to an end.
> 
> A mess it was, but it's finally getting cleaned up and resolved. All will be done by next Feb.


For the 9,999th time, it is not an "SDTV shutdown". The transition will be from analog SD to digital SD.


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## scooper

samhevener said:


> To me and all the retired people out there it's called a "shutdown". If we can't receive our standard NBC, CBS, ABC channels over the air on the TV sets we have used for many years without changing or adding something, it's a shutdown, period. I had mentioned before that I walk with a group of a 100 or so retirees in the mornings. I asked if any knew about the shutdown next year. Only about 2 or 3 told me they did. The others knew nothing about it. We watch TV but we don't watch commercials. Few will see the spots now being shown. I would say that by about Oct or Nov the you know what will hit the fan and Congress will be swamped with calls from irate taxpayers. I wouldn't be surprised that some of the Senators and Representatives that are up for election or re-election will use delaying the "shutdown" as part of their platform. The "shutdown" will then be delayed.


Then what the heck did you old geezers call it when stations started getting assigned UHF channels and you had to use an external UHF tuner to receive them ? At least until new TVs started coming with builtin UHF tuners. Well - this DTV transition is the same thing.

And it WON'T be delayed.


----------



## Upstream

Again, the reason it won't be delayed is because nothing is gained by delaying it.

Sam's friends who don't watch commercials and don't know about the transition, won't know about the transition whether it happens in Feb 2009 or Feb 2012. Delay won't help the people who aren't ready.


----------



## dave1234

Tom Robertson said:


> The OP felt (and probably still feels) the transition is still a mess so we'll let him dictate the title. I will be very happy to adjust it according to his wishes and feelings.
> 
> All that said, I do feel that things are in Ok shape. Many people will be fine, upwards of 90-95% seems like a good guess to me depending on how well the stations get their updates to the FCC and Satellite companies in a timely fashion.
> 
> More people should know about the coupons. I just told some members of my family today. They knew about the transition, but didn't know about the coupons yet. Coupons they must order in a few weeks or lose them. That is my concern.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I hadn't intended to suggest the title be changed. I was primarily trying to inject my opinion that the shutdown has been a "mess" for 10-20 years. From my perspective it's looking much better.

I do agree with the OP that most people are unaware of the meaning of the shutdown. Still that's not going to delay it.


----------



## Jon D

I have the solution. Get the government out of the whole process. Who cares if they are broadcasting analog and digital at the same time for awhile. The analog will go away eventually regardless and I won't have to pay for other peoples converter boxes.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jon D said:


> I have the solution. Get the government out of the whole process. Who cares if they are broadcasting analog and digital at the same time for awhile. The analog will go away eventually regardless and I won't have to pay for other peoples converter boxes.


The government is the one responsible for the radio frequency spectrum.... so you can't take the government out of the process... as they are the one forcing the issue.


----------



## jimmyv2000

Earl Bonovich said:


> The government is the one responsible for the radio frequency spectrum.... so you can't take the government out of the process... as they are the one forcing the issue.


Blame it on BUSH  
I'm waiting for a coupon so i can hook up my grandmothers TV who gets stations via OTA (old school rabbit ears).


----------



## tcusta00

jimmyv2000 said:


> Blame it on BUSH


Now now, let's not start in on this BS. :nono:


----------



## Jon D

Earl Bonovich said:


> The government is the one responsible for the radio frequency spectrum.... so you can't take the government out of the process... as they are the one forcing the issue.


I was exaggerating a little to make a point. The FCC should only declare that broadcasters have until date x to discontinue using frequencies x to x. That's it. It should not subsidize converter boxes or have anything to do with the process.


----------



## Carl Spock

samhevener said:


> To me and all the retired people out there it's called a "shutdown".


It's only a shutdown in the way a two lane state road is replaced with a four lane expressway. Yes, the old two lane road is shut down. You can't get on and off at the same places. The intersections are different. But so is the speed. People gripe initially about the change but within a year, they can't get along without it. Many folks will get boxes for their bedroom and kitchen TVs but replace their main TV with a HD set that is, by next year, down to $400. They'll love it.

BTW, I think if there is any group that will get this message, it is retirees. My experience is that they watch a lot of TV. They'll see the PSAs.


----------



## Nick

jimmyv2000 said:


> ...I'm waiting for a coupon so i can hook up my grandmothers TV who gets
> stations via OTA (old school rabbit ears).


Nothing wrong with wabbit ears. Any device that can snatch tv signals out of thin
air without complicated technology or additional expense is, IMO, _very_ high tech.


----------



## Lord Vader

Carl Spock said:


> BTW, I think if there is any group that will get this message, it is retirees. My experience is that they watch a lot of TV. They'll see the PSAs.


But they're in bed by 8:00 p.m. anyway, aren't they?


----------



## jimmyv2000

Carl Spock said:


> , I think if there is any group that will get this message, it is retirees. My experience is that they watch a lot of TV. They'll see the PSAs.


One Boston station WCVB abc5 is airing announcements during their news casts plus theyre running a webcast about DTV transition several times a week.
the next one is either today or tommorrow at 12:35 pm
source:
www.thebostonchannel.com


----------



## Cholly

Lord Vader said:


> But they're in bed by 8:00 p.m. anyway, aren't they?


Not me! I've always been a night person (type B) !:bink: :dozey: :zzz: :rolling:


----------



## Cholly

samhevener said:


> Your wrong. It hasn't been extended, it's been shortened. The way it transition was first set up was that the changeover would happen when 85% viewers in each meto area owned TV sets with DTV tuners. It didn't count those who received signals via cable or satellite. That was a good transition goal and should not have been changed.


Where did you get this idea? As I recall, the original date for the transition to occur was in 2006. Due to uproar from the industry, it was changed to Feb. 17, 2009,

Give up your opposition, Sam, and spend your energy educating the folks you walk with. (BTW, I applaud you for mall walking. Due to a shattered ankle, I can't do that).


----------



## boylehome

FCC is allowing TV Stations to, "Flash Cut" before 02-17-09. I guess this is what samhevener may be referencing. Then in about 2 more years, after 02-17-09, all low power TV stations may have to go digital.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Typo? You perhaps meant before 2-17-09?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

samhevener said:


> To me and all the retired people out there it's called a "shutdown". If we can't receive our standard NBC, CBS, ABC channels over the air on the TV sets we have used for many years without changing or adding something, it's a shutdown, period. I had mentioned before that I walk with a group of a 100 or so retirees in the mornings. I asked if any knew about the shutdown next year. Only about 2 or 3 told me they did. The others knew nothing about it. We watch TV but we don't watch commercials. Few will see the spots now being shown. I would say that by about Oct or Nov the you know what will hit the fan and Congress will be swamped with calls from irate taxpayers. I wouldn't be surprised that some of the Senators and Representatives that are up for election or re-election will use delaying the "shutdown" as part of their platform. The "shutdown" will then be delayed.


To a person who suddenly awakens on 2-18-09 unable to watch their TV, or has their screen go snowy at the moment it happens for their station, I surely can understand it being called a shutdown--from their point of view. I gots no problem with that concept.

Then again, since you _are_ very well aware of what is happening, you do have options to transition as the plan intends, you have the power to spread the word to others so they can be aware and take advantage of these option, I ask (and I mean this in a polite, respectful way) do you personally think this is a "shutdown"?

What (realistically, please) would change that opinion?

Thanks for your insights,
Tom


----------



## boylehome

Tom Robertson said:


> Typo? You perhaps meant before 2-17-09?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Tom, Yes 2009.


----------



## Rich

I have serious doubts that the time frame for the SD switchover will occur on 2-18-09. The new president will be elected in November and if I were him or her, I would immediately push that date forward to later in the year. He or she will be stepping into enough of a nightmare in January of 09 when he or she is inaugurated. I have a hard time believing they will allow another nightmare to be awaiting them. But, that's just my opinion, we will see.

Rich



Tom Robertson said:


> To a person who suddenly awakens on 2-18-09 unable to watch their TV, or has their screen go snowy at the moment it happens for their station, I surely can understand it being called a shutdown--from their point of view. I gots no problem with that concept.
> 
> Then again, since you _are_ very well aware of what is happening, you do have options to transition as the plan intends, you have the power to spread the word to others so they can be aware and take advantage of these option, I ask (and I mean this in a polite, respectful way) do you personally think this is a "shutdown"?
> 
> What (realistically, please) would change that opinion?
> 
> Thanks for your insights,
> Tom


----------



## Geronimo

rich584 said:


> I have serious doubts that the time frame for the SD switchover will occur on 2-18-09. The new president will be elected in November and if I were him or her, I would immediately push that date forward to later in the year. He or she will be stepping into enough of a nightmare in March of 09 when he or she is inaugurated. I have a hard time believing they will allow another nightmare to be awaiting them. But, that's just my opinion, we will see.
> 
> Rich


We have had years to get ready. What will be accomplished by waiting a few more months---except possibly delaying the spectrum auction? BTW the inauguration is in January, the switchover in February---what happens in March?


----------



## Tom Robertson

My gut tells me this won't shift. What will shift are more commecials and more coupon opportunities. I don't think more coupons than the 30+ million expected, I think they might realize enough people haven't taken advantage of the program and therefore introduce another window.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> And those who by February 2009 are NOT aware of this are too stupid to be allowed to watch TV anyway.


Made me laugh again! Thanx, your Lordship.

Rich


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Without breaking forum rules, I can only say that I _hope_ that our next President, no matter who he or she is, will have much more important work to do than preserving the ability of the technically backward to watch Wheel of Fortune.


----------



## Geronimo

Tom Robertson said:


> The OP felt (and probably still feels) the transition is still a mess so we'll let him dictate the title. I will be very happy to adjust it according to his wishes and feelings.
> 
> All that said, I do feel that things are in Ok shape. Many people will be fine, upwards of 90-95% seems like a good guess to me depending on how well the stations get their updates to the FCC and Satellite companies in a timely fashion.
> 
> More people should know about the coupons. I just told some members of my family today. They knew about the transition, but didn't know about the coupons yet. Coupons they must order in a few weeks or lose them. That is my concern.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


But SDTV is NOT being shutdown. Analog TV is.


----------



## Rich

scooper said:


> Then what the heck did you old geezers call it when stations started getting assigned UHF channels and you had to use an external UHF tuner to receive them ? At least until new TVs started coming with builtin UHF tuners. Well - this DTV transition is the same thing.
> 
> And it WON'T be delayed.


Discrimination of any sort should not be allowed on this forum. Who are you to call them "geezers"? Not one of the people he referred to will be any younger than they are today. Neither will you or I.

Rich


----------



## Geronimo

tcusta00 said:


> Here's the answer from dtv2009.gov:
> 
> I disagree with people who take advantage of government programs not meant for them. My opinion.
> 
> I think this program is creating very big gray area of what's right and wrong. You, Earl, are applying for coupons for boxes that will be used immediately. I think this is a gray area where you have to personally assess the need. Some other people on this board are encouraging people to apply for the coupons "just in case" they may be needed in the future even though there's no immediate need. I think this is bordering on the edge of the gray area. Yeah, it's all our tax dollars,but by the same token my tax dollars are paying for food stamps - doesn't mean I should go get them if I don't need them.
> 
> Like you said, when it comes down to it, the boxes don't cost that much. If there's a need in the future when that "just in case" happens you can go out and get one at that time.


I guess that my own view on thss is that if you own a set dependent on OTA apply. If you don't the box is worthless. This sia bit different than food stams etc (though i see your point) in this case a specific govt action will obsolete many sets and that govet action is one that will MAKE the government money even after this program.


----------



## Geronimo

scooper said:


> Then what the heck did you old geezers call it when stations started getting assigned UHF channels and you had to use an external UHF tuner to receive them ? At least until new TVs started coming with builtin UHF tuners. Well - this DTV transition is the same thing.
> 
> And it WON'T be delayed.


Not the same thing. If you owned a set with a VHF only tuner it could still watch the same VHF I had always watched.. Now if you have an analog tuner the set can no longer receive the same stations it received before.


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> But they're in bed by 8:00 p.m. anyway, aren't they?


You could use a paradigm shift, your Lordship. I know I went to bed a lot earlier when I was working than I do now. Of course, I was scared to death that I would fall asleep and electrocute myself when I was an electrician. Got plenty of sleep for that job. :icon_kiff

Rich


----------



## Rich

Geronimo said:


> We have had years to get ready. What will be accomplished by waiting a few more months---except possibly delaying the spectrum auction? BTW the inauguration is in January, the switchover in February---what happens in March?


For some reason I keep thinking that the inauguration is in March. You are correct, which makes the argument even stronger and easier for the new President to delay the date.

Rich


----------



## Geronimo

Well actually he can't do anything until January and even then he can't do it alone. Trying to monkey with it next year would be counterproductive. Anda gain what woudl be gained by waitinga few more months?


----------



## Rich

Stuart Sweet said:


> Without breaking forum rules, I can only say that I _hope_ that our next President, no matter who he or she is, will have much more important work to do than preserving the ability of the technically backward to watch Wheel of Fortune.


My point exactly. Why would a newly elected President allow himself to be sidetracked by something like this. And he will be sidetracked by this.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Geronimo said:


> Well actually he can't do anything until January and even then he can't do it alone. Trying to monkey with it next year would be counterproductive. Anda gain what woudl be gained by waitinga few more months?


Just an opinion. And it would be easily accomplished. If I were a newly elected official, I would change what I could to make my job more productive.

Rich


----------



## Geronimo

rich584 said:


> Just an opinion. And it would be easily accomplished. If I were a newly elected official, I would change what I could to make my job more productive.
> 
> Rich


i guess that we can agree to disagree. I don't see how moving it will help anyone. It would just delay the auction and the govt receiving revenue. I realy think that youa re overstating any disruption caused by this. It is just TV and there is plenty of time to get a converter box and get it up and running.


----------



## Upstream

I don't see a new president coming in at the end of January 2009, and changing the Feb 17, 2009 cutover. Changing the date with less than a month's notice will create more problems than it solves, as by then all broadcasters and cable/sat providers will have finalized and invested in their cutover plans. If the cutover does not go smoothly, the new president can just blame the old president. (I'm sure that will happen for many other issues too.)


----------



## scooper

Do you realize what it will take to stop the transition ?

#1 - you have to get enough US citizens riled up enough to contact their representatives in Congress

#2 - Congress (itself just getting organized after elections / swearing in) actually getting around to writing AND passing a bill in both houses of Congress.

#3 - said bill getting SIGNED by the incoming president

#4 - then the FCC has to start slamming the brakes - 

All in all - IMO it is as unlikely as a snowman lasting through August here in North Carolina.


----------



## Geronimo

Actually the cable and satellite providers don't have to do anything.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

...which, given the high penetration of cable and satellite subscribers, makes it even less likely that anything rash will be done between January 20th and February 19. February 20, the sun will still rise and Good Morning America will still be there to greet it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

scooper said:


> Do you realize what it will take to stop the transition ?
> 
> #1 - you have to get enough US citizens riled up enough to contact their representatives in Congress
> 
> #2 - Congress (itself just getting organized after elections / swearing in) actually getting around to writing AND passing a bill in both houses of Congress.
> 
> #3 - said bill getting SIGNED by the incoming president
> 
> #4 - then the FCC has to start slamming the brakes -
> 
> All in all - IMO it is as unlikely as a snowman lasting through August here in North Carolina.


Are you sure #1, #2, and #3 would have to do this?

Isn't this an FCC mandated change, not a law change?

I still don't think it is going to be altered again... as I said before, there just comes a time when it has to get done.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Mr. B is correct, this is an FCC mandate not a law. The FCC cannot make laws (although its mandates must be followed or the user risks losing his license). However it's immaterial. Millions of dollars have been spent on this transition already. 

The best thing that every DBSTalker can do is find 1 person every day who doesn't know about the transition and educate him or her.


----------



## Geronimo

Both the transition and the auction of freed spectrum have an underlying legislative authority. In fact Congress set a deadine----twice extened for this to happen. You would need to amend that to make significant changes. But again if you aren't ready in February of '09 how will you be ready later? No one has answered that question.

But frankly if yousee a nee to extens i do it now don't wait till the last minute.

Put more simply What is the problem and how does a last minute delay solve it?


----------



## Tom Robertson

The FCC not only has underlying legislative authority, the FCC has a legislative mandate to complete the task by 2-18-09.

As such, the FCC can not change the date on their own. Certainly legislative measures would suffice but I suspect a Presidential Executive Order would also allow for at least a short delay.

Don't see it happening. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Cholly

Actually, it is a law: The Digital Television Transition and Public Safety Act of 2005. See: http://dtv.gov/DTVAct.pdf


----------



## Geronimo

Right I see no way an executive order by itself could delay things---ow what purpoee would be served by this dealy. What is the "mess" referred to in the thread title? How would a delay in implementation help?


----------



## scooper

Earl Bonovich said:


> Are you sure #1, #2, and #3 would have to do this?
> 
> Isn't this an FCC mandated change, not a law change?
> 
> I still don't think it is going to be altered again... as I said before, there just comes a time when it has to get done.


I think we're splitting hairs here - but based on the later posts - I rest on #1, 2 and 3 being required to get #4 to happen.

I also think there is no way to stop it (MAYBE if Congress would change that law BEFORE they go on Christmas break - 'cause it sure ain't happening after that).


----------



## Tom Robertson

Geronimo said:


> Right I see no way an executive order by itself could delay things---ow what purpoee would be served by this dealy. What is the "mess" referred to in the thread title? How would a delay in implementation help?


I'm just not sure of the power of executive order, so I mentioned it. As for the "what purpose would a delay serve?", I tend to agree with you, it wouldn't serve any real purpose I don't think unless someone came forth with a plan to spend more money to reach out to the people who were missed this year. (I think they should just reach out better the first time.)

The "mess" seems to refer to the number of people who need to know about the transition but don't. The people who have DIRECTV or cable and don't know, really aren't a problem, they will still watch via their pay TV service.

I don't know how big a problem this will be. No matter what, there will be people who won't know no matter when the transition is set to happen.

And I just re-read the coupon program FAQs. I had mis-read the application dates, people have until March 31, 2009 to apply. Not nearly as constrained as I had thought. People have plenty of time to catch the PSAs and order their coupons.

I relax my stance and my mistaken objections. This is going to be fine. The date WILL NOT be moved back. Congressmen will tell people "Order the coupon."

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I still think an opportunity was lost, by big time retailers:

Best Buy, Circuit City, WalMart, Target, Amazon, Sears, ect...

To not include an information sheet in every bag/box/shipment during the 2007 Holiday Season.

You can start to include inserts in the major news paper sunday ad-sections...

Then vendors of the actual boxes, setup kiosks or floor displays at major common shopping points (like super-markets, hardware stores)... and then also mix in sporting venues during 2008... Baseball parks, Football, and NCAA activities...

Heck... during March Madness... make sure that there is some plug in and advertisement....

This weekend during the Oscars... they could have a very short segment.. "Do you want to see the Oscars next year"...

The message can easily get out... And honestly... the cost, shouldn't be a factor and should almost be waived (except for resource costs like Paper, ink, ect)... electronic ones and TV ads, should be waived... as for every person they don't get converted is one less revenue dollar after the conversion.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Earl, perhaps they are waiting for the converters to be available on the shelves? That might be the right time to really start the push, perhaps.

I do like the idea, there is a lot of merit to that plan. (And you know that once on starts, the rest will too.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Earl Bonovich said:


> I still think an opportunity was lost, by big time retailers:
> 
> Best Buy, Circuit City, WalMart, Target, Amazon, Sears, ect...
> 
> To not include an information sheet in every bag/box/shipment during the 2007 Holiday Season.


I would have agreed had there been a converter for sale or a coupon available during the 07 holidays. But, for whatever reason, there was not.

Now, Sling/Echostar would be missing out on a HUGE opportunity if they don't get their product in stores very soon. They've got the right box at the right price and if they wait too long then they'll get ambushed by some of the no-names I saw at CES.


----------



## boylehome

rich584 said:


> I have serious doubts that the time frame for the SD switchover will occur on 2-18-09. The new president will be elected in November and if I were him or her, I would immediately push that date forward to later in the year. He or she will be stepping into enough of a nightmare in January of 09 when he or she is inaugurated. I have a hard time believing they will allow another nightmare to be awaiting them. But, that's just my opinion, we will see.
> 
> Rich


The analog shut off will occur. Remember, low power analog shut off will occur years later. Most of the folks, living in the deep woods/mountains will get their TV signals from translators, and if the translators are low power, they can remain analog after 02-17-09. The frequency bandwidth needed for pubic safety is more than enough justification for this cut off date. This switch was delayed for many years already. Now that those who are just getting the news of this process say it is too soon, hello, it is old news! Yes, there are many feet daggers, but their feet wont get drug too far or too long. IMHO, any president will not dabble with this issue being it is the lowest of priorities. President B. Clinton enacted this change. Congress already pushed. How much beating does this dead horse need?


----------



## Geronimo

I still see no problem. there is a year before the transition. the coupon program is under way. Sorry but there is no problem here.


----------



## bidger

I agree, Geronimo, but Sam would have you believe otherwise.


----------



## scooper

Geronimo said:


> Actually the cable and satellite providers don't have to do anything.


I'd have to take exception with this - Since just about all stations (not all - just the majority of them) are rebroadcast by E*, D*, or cable, the MSOs also need to figure out how they are going to get the stations output into / out of their equipment / network.


----------



## Geronimo

scooper said:


> I'd have to take exception with this - Since just about all stations (not all - just the majority of them) are rebroadcast by E*, D*, or cable, the MSOs also need to figure out how they are going to get the stations output into / out of their equipment / network.


Fair comment. I don't think that is how the isssue was raised here but a fair comment nevertheless.


----------



## tcusta00

...


----------



## jclewter79

The switch over will happen on time. period. end of story. D* and E* will have their crap together for all the local feeds. No need to worry.


----------



## Nick

This thread has gone from the bizarre to the ridiculous. It's long since run its course :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## tcusta00

Oh, you mean like this thread:

http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=116956

And this thread:

http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115909

And this thread:

http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=85213


----------



## Geronimo

I was unaware of the Op's history on this topic. My bad. I have no idea what it sia bout this that is so hard to accept.

OK we are going through a change. A big one. but many TVs can handle it on their own. many more are hooked up to satellite or cable and it does not matter. There is a coupon program that can help people who have one or more analog sets that are not hooked up to satellite or cable. If you have need for a converter by all means get a coupon. If you do not you are wasting your time by applyi9ng.

But we will all be able to watch TV next February. Not 100 channels of HD but the same OTa TV you had before---plus a few digital subchannels to boot.


----------



## OneOfOne

samhevener said:


> To me and all the retired people out there it's called a "shutdown". If we can't receive our standard NBC, CBS, ABC channels over the air on the TV sets we have used for many years without changing or adding something, it's a shutdown, period. I had mentioned before that I walk with a group of a 100 or so retirees in the mornings. I asked if any knew about the shutdown next year. Only about 2 or 3 told me they did. The others knew nothing about it. We watch TV but we don't watch commercials. Few will see the spots now being shown. I would say that by about Oct or Nov the you know what will hit the fan and Congress will be swamped with calls from irate taxpayers. I wouldn't be surprised that some of the Senators and Representatives that are up for election or re-election will use delaying the "shutdown" as part of their platform. The "shutdown" will then be delayed.


gee, did you ask them how many of them rely on ota broadcasts for ALL of their programming. I bet you did not. I also bet that all of them get their tv via cable or satellite. in that case they neednt care since it is very unlikely that the dont already have a box which delivers digitally right now. the shut down is irrelevant to most people because of this very fact. I bet that a lot of people such as myself have ota antennas mounted just to get the best picture/ local channels in ota. otherwise this entire thread is moot.


----------



## samhevener

Yes I remember when UHF converters were added to VHF TVs. You are missing a very important point. When the UHF converters came out we could still use our TV sets to receive the existing channels we had received in the past. Our VHF TV was not rendered useless because we didn't add a UHF converter. The same can be said for color tv. When stations started transmitting programs in color, we weren't required to purchase a new TV or add some type of converter. Our black and white TV sets were still usable as is. The same can be said for TV stereo audio, no adapter or new TV set required. The same for closed captioning broadcasts, we weren't required to purchase a new TV set or buy and adapter if we want to continue using our old TV set. I have seen how the public reacts to major change over my 64 years. I have also seen how they react when something major changes even though they had 100 warnings ahead of time. As the date gets closer the you know what will hit the fan and the SDTV shutdown ( Maybe I should say analog TV) will be delayed. I would bet money on it.


scooper said:


> Then what the heck did you old geezers call it when stations started getting assigned UHF channels and you had to use an external UHF tuner to receive them ? At least until new TVs started coming with built in UHF tuners. Well - this DTV transition is the same thing.
> 
> And it WON'T be delayed.


----------



## Geronimo

OneOfOne said:


> gee, did you ask them how many of them rely on ota broadcasts for ALL of their programming. I bet you did not. I also bet that all of them get their tv via cable or satellite. in that case they neednt care since it is very unlikely that the dont already have a box which delivers digitally right now. the shut down is irrelevant to most people because of this very fact. I bet that a lot of people such as myself have ota antennas mounted just to get the best picture/ local channels in ota. otherwise this entire thread is moot.


Cable and satellite and OTA are separate issues. The only way to this affects you is if you ahve one or more TVS that receive OTA only and do not have adigital tuner. If you get cable that generally won't tune OTA.


----------



## scooper

"I'll take that bet, you're going to regret..." from "The Devil went down to Georgia", Charlie Daniels Band....


----------



## Upstream

Sam -- 

I have no doubt that there will be confusion and complaints about the analog-to-digital switch. I would not be surprised if the coupon program gets modified, gets extended, or gets higher funding (I also would not be surprised if it remains exactly as it is now).

But I see almost no possibility of the cut-over date getting delayed. Changing the date would require a lot of discussion and agreement. Today, no one who counts is talking about moving the date. 

Also, even though there will be confusion and complaints, moving the date won't solve any of the problems. It will just delay the problems to the new date.


But we will know in a year. Either the date is moved, or it isn't. And if you are correct that it is moved, then we will know later if moving the date solves any of the issues which caused the date to be moved.


----------



## samhevener

You mentioned the legislative and executive branches of our government, you forgot the judicial branch. A lawsuit filed in Federal Court by the lowpower TV stations, the AARP, a grassroots organization called maybe "Citizens to save our TVs" or any group could put the shutdown on hold until the lawsuit is decided including appeals all the way to the Supreme Court. This could take years. It would be out of the FCCs, Congress and Presidents hands.


scooper said:


> Do you realize what it will take to stop the transition ?
> 
> #1 - you have to get enough US citizens riled up enough to contact their representatives in Congress
> 
> #2 - Congress (itself just getting organized after elections / swearing in) actually getting around to writing AND passing a bill in both houses of Congress.
> 
> #3 - said bill getting SIGNED by the incoming president
> 
> #4 - then the FCC has to start slamming the brakes -
> 
> All in all - IMO it is as unlikely as a snowman lasting through August here in North Carolina.


----------



## tcusta00

It's a locomotive traveling at 80 mph right now. The coupons are out, the boxes are in stores and the date is set. I don't even think an injunction will work. The "organizations" you mentioned could file a lawsuit, sure. The grassroots organization you're looking to start won't have funding by Feb 2009 to hire an attorney with any kind of political clout to get this heard in a federal court. 

And even if it got that far, the courts would probably laugh at it. The constitutionality of the law it isn't in question with your grassroots organization or the AARP since the government is providing free alternatives with plenty (more than a year) of notice. The low power stations are the only ones with a constitutional leg to stand on and again, the government would rather throw money at the problem than delay the date again, after all this planning.


----------



## samhevener

To be fair today's paper had two headlines. The one of interest is "Recyclers bracing for deluge". Switch to digital television a boost e-scrap in Summit (County). Many TV sets that are NOT WORN OUT will add to the countries landfill problems. A quote from Ted Georger owner of E-Waste LLC. "It will be a NIGHTMARE for recyclers" He goes on to say "But it will be doable". More trash to fill the landfills that are already overflowing. What a way for the United States to go. Filled with items that aren't even worn out. Talking about those just buying DTVs instead of getting adapters. Another problem to think about with this shutdown mess.


samhevener said:


> The rushed shutdown mess will just get worse with the 100% shutdown date of Feb 17, 2009 being extended. Congress is already hearing from the viewers and want to create a "DTV czar". The following news story is of interest. Edit: (Tom Robertson) the original article at Multichannel news: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6531873.html


----------



## samhevener

You are assuming that everything will go smooth with the coupon program and that everyone will get their adapters installed with no problem. Lets wait and see how smooth it goes before saying there will be no lawsuits.


tcusta00 said:


> It's a locomotive traveling at 80 mph right now. The coupons are out, the boxes are in stores and the date is set. I don't even think an injunction will work. The "organizations" you mentioned could file a lawsuit, sure. The grassroots organization you're looking to start won't have funding by Feb 2009 to hire an attorney with any kind of political clout to get this heard in a federal court.
> 
> And even if it got that far, the courts would probably laugh at it. The constitutionality of the law it isn't in question with your grassroots organization or the AARP since the government is providing free alternatives with plenty (more than a year) of notice. The low power stations are the only ones with a constitutional leg to stand on and again, the government would rather throw money at the problem than delay the date again, after all this planning.


----------



## tcusta00

And you are assuming that everything is going to go badly - in all three of the threads you started on this subject. I don't get it. I think everyone understands that things "could" go wrong. I get that. There's always the other side of the equation that you've failed to concede is possible too - that things could be okay and the sky won't fall. 

Let's wait and see how smooth it goes before saying there will be lawsuits.


----------



## Geronimo

samhevener said:


> You mentioned the legislative and executive branches of our government, you forgot the judicial branch. A lawsuit filed in Federal Court by the lowpower TV stations, the AARP, a grassroots organization called maybe "Citizens to save our TVs" or any group could put the shutdown on hold until the lawsuit is decided including appeals all the way to the Supreme Court. This could take years. It would be out of the FCCs, Congress and Presidents hands.


Has such a lawsuit been filed? If so i am surprised since the AARP has been a vocal in its support of the program and in educating people about the program. As for the other organization I see no record of their existence.

BTW installing the adapter is no big deal----no harder than plugging the old antenna into the same set.


----------



## tcusta00

Geronimo said:


> . As for the other organization I see no record of their existence.


I think Sam was playing Devil's Advocate on this one... it _could_ be created out of the switchover in order to be a "voice" for those being intentionally persecuted by Pontius Pilate. Oh wait, that was another story. :lol:


----------



## Upstream

No lawsuits have been filed. A successful lawsuit would have to claim that the switchover was a violation of law. Any successful lawsuit would have already been filed (since there the law and switchover plans are already established). An 11th hour lawsuit is unlikely to be successful in delaying the switchover date.


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## Jim5506

I believe I read somewhere that a lwasuit was files by the LP stations because they are not included in the channels receivable by the converters - THEY WILL STILL BE ANALOG UNTIL WHO KNOWS WHEN!


----------



## Doug Brott

Earl Bonovich said:


> I still think an opportunity was lost, by big time retailers:
> 
> Best Buy, Circuit City, WalMart, Target, Amazon, Sears, ect...
> 
> To not include an information sheet in every bag/box/shipment during the 2007 Holiday Season.


I bought something from Best Buy during the holiday season (not even TV related, it was software) and the Digital Television Conversion information was right there on the receipt with a URL link to Best Buy for more information .. http://www.bestbuy.com/dtv .


----------



## Upstream

Jim -- I don't know if there is a lawsuit by LP channels, but they have formally complained to the FCC. But they are not trying to delay the analog-to-digital conversion of HP stations. They have two complaints: (1) Some converter boxes won't pass their analog LP signal, meaning they want better education and higher availability so people who receive LP channels know they need a converter box which passes through analog signals, and (2) they want changes to the 2012 LP analog-to-digital proposed plan.

Neither of these complaints will likely delay the 2009 HP analog-to-digital conversion, although the first complaint may force some modifications to the converter coupon program (and in fact it has already created changes).


There is also a lawsuit by some cable networks regarding the FCC's must-carry rules for cable providers who have both analog and digital cable systems. Again, this lawsuit does not ask for a delay in the 2009 analog-to-digital conversion, nor is it likely to result in a delay in the 2009 analog-to-digital conversion.


----------



## Doug Brott

Geronimo said:


> Actually the cable and satellite providers don't have to do anything.





scooper said:


> I'd have to take exception with this - Since just about all stations (not all - just the majority of them) are rebroadcast by E*, D*, or cable, the MSOs also need to figure out how they are going to get the stations output into / out of their equipment / network.





Geronimo said:


> Fair comment. I don't think that is how the isssue was raised here but a fair comment nevertheless.


Yes, I seem to recall that DIRECTV and DISH complained a bit in the past 6 months that they were not going to be ready .. This is likely the source of their concern.

DIRECTV for many subs will not have that much of a problem. They can take the Digital feed that they have for HD and down convert it to SD for rebroadcast (in a technical sense). It is likely that some negotiations will need to happen with many broadcasters so that doing this down convert is not counter to any contracts .. In addition, DIRECTV will have to get the equipment to do this or somehow work with the television stations to make it happen.

I still think that the SAT providers have plenty of time to make this happen, but they do have a lot of work to do and it's not quite as simple as flipping a switch for them any more than it is for the individual television stations.


----------



## samhevener

I didn't say that a lawsuit has been filed. I was answering a thread that said it would take Congress and maybe the President's signature to delay the shutdown. I just mentioned that a federal lawsuit could also delay the shutdown. The shutdown could go without a problem but because it is such a major change I don't think it will. Too many "things" (that I have mentioned before) can go wrong. I still would bet money that the shutdown of high power analog stations will be delayed. Just wait six or eight months. The problems will show up a little at a time, becoming more numerous as we get closer to 2009.


Upstream said:


> No lawsuits have been filed. A successful lawsuit would have to claim that the switchover was a violation of law. Any successful lawsuit would have already been filed (since there the law and switchover plans are already established). An 11th hour lawsuit is unlikely to be successful in delaying the switchover date.


----------



## tcusta00

samhevener said:


> Just wait six or eight months. The problems will show up a little at a time, becoming more numerous as we get closer to 2009.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion, Sam. Time will tell.


----------



## Doug Brott

10% of US homes have only analog OTA .. another 6% of homes have at least one set that is only analog OTA.

Of those 10% that will be completely affected, how many will get either the converter box or a new set by this time next year? How many of the 6% will simply stop using the old set that may have been an "extra" anyway?

I know my parents are getting a new set to combat the problem with their "camping" TV and they have SAT service when they are at home.

I believe that there will be some people that will wait until after the transition before they make a change .. procrastination is human nature after all . However, even if they don't get their local TV the world will not end. They'll ask questions and get an answer and move forward .. worst case they get a converter box in the month after the transition occurs .. worst worst case, the 3/31/09 deadline for using the coupon gets extended another year so that folks can save a few bucks to make the transition.

It's certainly not a mess and is very doable by everyone involved.


----------



## Rich

Picture this, the newly elected President gets up the day after the election and finds a thousand truly angry AARP members picketing the hotel he/she is staying at. And all he/she sees is a huge headache that he/she doesn't want to deal with. If it were me, I would conclude that the thousand AARP members outside was the tip a really large iceberg and I would be on the phone making the problem go away until I could deal with it. And don't kid yourselves into believing that an incumbent President doesn't have the power or will to do it.

Maybe it won't happen, but Phil Swanni and I had a conversation about this a year ago. Do you think the candidates aren't aware of this potential problem? That was my first thought when I read the date of the switchover. I sincerely hope we will elect someone bright enough to have seen this and developed a plan to deal with it. If the person is really bright, it might become an election issue. Lots of older folks out there that wield a lot of political power who might be inclined to vote for someone who solves a problem for them.

Should be interesting. This is only speculation on my part. Perhaps there will be no uproar. Perhaps.

Rich



boylehome said:


> The analog shut off will occur. Remember, low power analog shut off will occur years later. Most of the folks, living in the deep woods/mountains will get their TV signals from translators, and if the translators are low power, they can remain analog after 02-17-09. The frequency bandwidth needed for pubic safety is more than enough justification for this cut off date. This switch was delayed for many years already. Now that those who are just getting the news of this process say it is too soon, hello, it is old news! Yes, there are many feet daggers, but their feet wont get drug too far or too long. IMHO, any president will not dabble with this issue being it is the lowest of priorities. President B. Clinton enacted this change. Congress already pushed. How much beating does this dead horse need?


----------



## Upstream

Sam -- I agree that there are lots of things that can go wrong, and I expect that lots of things will go wrong. 

But I don't see a delay in the conversion date solving any of the problems. Consumers who have almost a year from today to learn and prepare for the conversion won't be any more prepared if they had 2 years. Broadcasters who are working toward the Feb 2009 deadline won't run into fewer problems if the deadline were Feb 2010 instead.

But a delay would cause problems for the broadcasters who have planned and invested in the Feb 2009 date. If someone were to propose a delay, I would expect that these broadcasters would object and try to block a delay.

The only kind of delay I can envision is the occassional station that runs into last minute technical problems and is given a one-to-two week extension on the conversion. But I don't think when you are talking about a delay, you are talking about a handful of stations converting on Feb 27 instead of Feb 17.


----------



## tcusta00

rich584 said:


> Do you think the candidates aren't aware of this potential problem?


If (IF) the candidates are aware of the _potential _problem (thanks for adding that adjective) they probably aren't adding it to their quiver of issues to be debated. You've got two wars, social security and medicare on the brink of collapse, millions of illegal, undocumented people streaming over our borders (up to and including terrorists), a health care crisis and a looming recession, among other things. I honestly don't think these guys are in any rush to bring up the issue of whether Esther and Warren will be able to watch their Wheel of Fortune before bed.


----------



## Rich

Geronimo said:


> i guess that we can agree to disagree.


I'm not sure I disagree with you, but that was a nice way to put it.



> I don't see how moving it will help anyone. It would just delay the auction and the govt receiving revenue. I realy think that youa re overstating any disruption caused by this. It is just TV and there is plenty of time to get a converter box and get it up and running.


I agree with you, but the great mass of people who are, as Mr. Sweet put it, technically challenged might just rise up and demand a change. Even if it is only 10% of the population that complains, that is still an awful lot of people. I can't begin to tell you how many of my bosses walked into my office and said, "I have a problem, make it go away." Were I the newly elected President, that is exactly what I would do. But, that is just me...

Rich


----------



## Upstream

Doug Brott said:


> 10% of US homes have only analog OTA .. another 6% of homes have at least one set that is only analog OTA.


Doug -- What is the source of those numbers. They seem awfully low. The numbers I have seen say about 21% of households have only OTA, and another 30-40% use OTA in conjunction with cable/sat.


----------



## Geronimo

Picture this. We switch to digital and people figure out how to use the boxes. You guys are simply specualting when it comes to these problems.

We will see if anyone files a lawsuit.AARP is unlikely since they support this and are proactively educating people. The other organzation does not exist and probably never will.

As for candidates having a plan---OK let's hear it and I would hope that it is beeter then just delaying the switch again.


----------



## Rich

tcusta00 said:


> If (IF) the candidates are aware of the _potential _problem (thanks for adding that adjective) they probably aren't adding it to their quiver of issues to be debated.


Seems like an obvious opportunity to gain votes tho. All one of them has to do is bring it up and it will become an ISSUE.



> You've got two wars, social security and medicare on the brink of collapse, millions of illegal, undocumented people streaming over our borders (up to and including terrorists), a health care crisis and a looming recession


Exactly my point. Easier to garner votes on a simpler issue than a complex issue.



> I honestly don't think these guys are in any rush to bring up the issue of whether Esther and Warren will be able to watch their Wheel of Fortune before bed.


Don't underestimate Esther and Warren's ability to raise holy h*** about this. And, please don't make it sound like just because they are up in years, they are stupid. I dislike discrimination of any kind and implying that senior citizens are "old geezers" or have to go to bed early or who are too dumb to watch anything of any substance borders on harassment.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Geronimo said:


> Picture this. We switch to digital and people figure out how to use the boxes. You guys are simply specualting when it comes to these problems.
> 
> We will see if anyone files a lawsuit.AARP is unlikely since they support this and are proactively educating people. The other organzation does not exist and probably never will.
> 
> As for candidates having a plan---OK let's hear it and I would hope that it is beeter then just delaying the switch again.


You're probably right. And this *is* all speculation.

Rich


----------



## tcusta00

rich584 said:


> I dislike discrimination of any kind and implying that senior citizens are "old geezers" or have to go to bed early or who are too dumb to watch anything of any substance borders on harassment.


It wasn't discriminatory at all. I never called them "geezers" or said that they have to go to bed early or that they're too dumb to watch anything of substance anyway. Don't put words into my mouth.


----------



## Doug Brott

Upstream said:


> Doug -- What is the source of those numbers. They seem awfully low. The numbers I have seen say about 21% of households have only OTA, and another 30-40% use OTA in conjunction with cable/sat.


here is where I read the information .. I will concede that I did not follow up and try to read the Nielsen Survey directly ..



> Nielsen researchers found that 10.1 percent of all households would have no access to television signals if the transition occurred today.





> The survey noted that 16.8 percent of all households have at least one analog television set that would not work after the switch.


----------



## Doug Brott

Diversity is a good thing .. However, let's try to stay away from comments that might cause hurt feelings ..


----------



## Upstream

rich584 said:


> Picture this, the newly elected President gets up the day after the election and finds a thousand truly angry AARP members picketing the hotel he/she is staying at.  And all he/she sees is a huge headache that he/she doesn't want to deal with.


So it is November 5, and I have been elected President. I wake up to see 1000 members of the Sam Hevener fan club protesting about the DTV conversion, and how there isn't enough time, and it needs to be delayed.

Well, I'm a man of the people, so I call Vice President-elect Geronimo, explain the situation, and tell him that I'm going to issue an executive order to delay the transition. And Geronimo, who was never one to jump into something without thinking it through, tell me that I can't issue an executive order since I am only President-elect, and not President. Geronimo, also tells me that even after I am inaugerated, I can't issue an executive order since the DTV conversion date is a matter of law, and changing the date requires changing (or overturning) the law.

But, I'm a man of the people, so I tell Vice President-elect Geronimo that we have to do something, otherwise millions of people won't be able to watch TV on February 18. And Geronimo tells me, "They still have three and a half months to get converter boxes."

Since I'm a man of the people, I tell Vice President-elect Geronimo that there must be a problem getting the converter boxes, otherwise why would these people be protesting.

"Maybe the boxes aren't for sale anywhere," I say.

Geronimo replies, _"Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, Sears, Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City."_

"Maybe they're too expensive," I say.

_"We're giving away $40 coupons, and some converter boxes cost less than $40, so they're essentially free,"_ Geronimo informs me.

"Maybe the people who need the coupons can't get them."

_"We ran two waves of coupon distribution, the first wave to anyone who wanted a coupon, and the second wave only to people who need them. But if there aren't enough coupons, we can call some contacts and *modify the coupon program*, to get additional coupons to the people who need them."_

"Maybe we can pull some strings and get the conversion date delayed too."

_"The date is set by law. And even if you could change it, that would just anger the people who have already invested and spent years planning for the current date. You're a man of the people, you don't want to upset the people who are prepared."_

"Maybe there are lots of people who don't know the conversion is coming."

_"Well that is possible. There have been lots of news stories, television ads, and newspaper ads for months. But maybe some people are still unaware. You can raise awareness by calling a press-conference and promise to look into the problem and come up with a solution."_

"But you've already told me that there really isn't anything I can do. If I promise to do something, won't everyone think I'm an idiot."

_"They already do, sir. They already do."_


----------



## Rich

That was quite impressive. Glad it was somebody in Jersey who did that. After our Governor raises the tolls and God knows what else, will anybody who uses the toll roads be able to afford anything new? 800%! Ya gotta admire the guy. What part of our fine state do you hail from?

Rich



Upstream said:


> So it is November 5, and I have been elected President. I wake up to see 1000 members of the Sam Hevener fan club protesting about the DTV conversion, and how there isn't enough time, and it needs to be delayed.
> 
> Well, I'm a man of the people, so I call Vice President-elect Geronimo, explain the situation, and tell him that I'm going to issue an executive order to delay the transition. And Geronimo, who was never one to jump into something without thinking it through, tell me that I can't issue an executive order since I am only President-elect, and not President. Geronimo, also tells me that even after I am inaugerated, I can't issue an executive order since the DTV conversion date is a matter of law, and changing the date requires changing (or overturning) the law.
> 
> But, I'm a man of the people, so I tell Vice President-elect Geronimo that we have to do something, otherwise millions of people won't be able to watch TV on February 18. And Geronimo tells me, "They still have three and a half months to get converter boxes."
> 
> Since I'm a man of the people, I tell Vice President-elect Geronimo that there must be a problem getting the converter boxes, otherwise why would these people be protesting.
> 
> "Maybe the boxes aren't for sale anywhere," I say.
> 
> Geronimo replies, _"Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, Sears, Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City."_
> 
> "Maybe they're too expensive," I say.
> 
> _"We're giving away $40 coupons, and some converter boxes cost less than $40, so they're essentially free,"_ Geronimo informs me.
> 
> "Maybe the people who need the coupons can't get them."
> 
> _"We ran two waves of coupon distribution, the first wave to anyone who wanted a coupon, and the second wave only to people who need them. But if there aren't enough coupons, we can call some contacts and *modify the coupon program*, to get additional coupons to the people who need them."_
> 
> "Maybe we can pull some strings and get the conversion date delayed too."
> 
> _"The date is set by law. And even if you could change it, that would just anger the people who have already invested and spent years planning for the current date. You're a man of the people, you don't want to upset the people who are prepared."_
> 
> "Maybe there are lots of people who don't know the conversion is coming."
> 
> _"Well that is possible. There have been lots of news stories, television ads, and newspaper ads for months. But maybe some people are still unaware. You can raise awareness by calling a press-conference and promise to look into the problem and come up with a solution."_
> 
> "But you've already told me that there really isn't anything I can do. If I promise to do something, won't everyone think I'm an idiot."
> 
> _"They already do, sir. They already do."_


----------



## Upstream

tcusta -- it was too big, and I didn't know how to resize it on the message board.

rich -- Central NJ


----------



## Greg Bimson

I have been staying out of the fray, but now is time to enter it...

A group of concerned citizens tries to file suit in court to stop the digital transition. So, one has to ask the next plausible question:

Under what grounds? Congress passed the bill and the President signed it into law, so the only way to get the law overturned in court is to have the Supreme Court find it unconstitutional.

That requires that the law is nullifying rights within the Amendments to the Constitution. Which amendment is being violated or ignored?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Greg Bimson said:


> I have been staying out of the fray, but now is time to enter it...
> 
> A group of concerned citizens tries to file suit in court to stop the digital transition. So, one has to ask the next plausible question:
> 
> Under what grounds? Congress passed the bill and the President signed it into law, so the only way to get the law overturned in court is to have the Supreme Court find it unconstitutional.
> 
> That requires that the law is nullifying rights within the Amendments to the Constitution. Which amendment is being violated or ignored?


And honestly... they would spend more money on legal/court fees... and time... then they would to go and get their converter boxes.
Or possibly even a new TV or 2


----------



## Rich

Upstream said:


> rich -- Central NJ


I live in Piscataway.

Rich


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

I'm still willing to accept bets on the full-power analog cut-off date.  

I too, think it's in "concrete" at this point.


----------



## tcusta00

I'm not a betting man but if I were I'd not be the one betting against a government mandate.


----------



## Doug Brott

tcusta00 said:


> I'm not a betting man but if I were I'd not be the one betting against a government mandate.


well the mandate is already there  But I suspect you're referring to yet another change when you say that .


----------



## tcusta00

I meant betting against the government mandate being overturned...


----------



## Geronimo

I think that the folks arguing for a delay are really arguing to not do it at all. otherwise they would answer the question of how another delay will help.

As for not doing it the train has already left the station. The spectrum auction is part of future revenue forecasts, the digital transmission equipment is in place etc. 

I am all for the coupon program it is unreasonable to expect everyone to buys new TV and this was caused by a government action but other than making sure that the coupons and converters are there I see no real problem here. You can still watch TV next year guys and it is not as if it takes an engineering degree to figure out how to use these things. You just are not harmed. Slightly inconvenienced perhaps but you may actually like the digital subchannels.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Earl Bonovich said:


> And honestly... they would spend more money on legal/court fees... and time... then they would to go and get their converter boxes.
> Or possibly even a new TV or 2


The converter boxes will be under $50 and Echostar's less than $40. So...someone actually thinks a mass of people would get angry enough on behalf of other people and spend millions of dollars to force a delay that could easily and less expensively by just buying boxes? Earl, I'm completely with you. Not that many people are sufficiently foolish to take the more expensive and painful approach and sue.



Geronimo said:


> I think that the folks arguing for a delay are really arguing to not do it at all. otherwise they would answer the question of how another delay will help.
> 
> As for not doing it the train has already left the station. The spectrum auction is part of future revenue forecasts, the digital transmission equipment is in place etc.
> 
> I am all for the coupon program it is unreasonable to expect everyone to buys new TV and this was caused by a government action but other than making sure that the coupons and converters are there I see no real problem here. You can still watch TV next year guys and it is not as if it takes an engineering degree to figure out how to use these things. You just are not harmed. Slightly inconvenienced perhaps but you may actually like the digital subchannels.


Geronimo, I like your thinking. 

*New Thought for the day*
What will people do when taxes go up because of a delay in receipt of the auction funds? Whom will they complain to? Whom will they sue? The government is always under pressure to reduce taxes and yet spend more as well. They can't afford a delay.

But, between now and a year from now, there is plenty of time to adjust the advertising, PSAs, coupon distribution system, etc. Adjustments can be made. In one month, Neilsen will tell the tale of how well the current PSAs are doing.

It is possible that the current plan would be a disaster if completely unchanged. There is lots of time to adjust to success.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> It is possible that the current plan would be a disaster if completely unchanged. There is lots of time to adjust to success.


And the Government seems willing to make adjustments as necessary, too. Just not changing the date again .


----------



## James Long

It seems that misinformed people (some in the media) are the biggest blame in any potential "mess".

The facts have not changed for months ... it is just the media and others taking notice. Nothing worth panicking about. Over the next nine months everyone will learn what they need to know. And Y2009 will pass without massive problems.


----------



## Tom Robertson

James Long said:


> It seems that misinformed people (some in the media) are the biggest blame in any potential "mess".
> 
> The facts have not changed for months ... it is just the media and others taking notice. Nothing worth panicking about. Over the next nine months everyone will learn what they need to know. And Y2009 will pass without massive problems.


Y2K9 will be minimally a problem for the exact same reasons Y2k was minimal: lots of people worked hard to anticipate and reduce the problems in advance. Good thinkin', James.


----------



## jclewter79

Jon D said:


> I have the solution. Get the government out of the whole process. Who cares if they are broadcasting analog and digital at the same time for awhile. The analog will go away eventually regardless and I won't have to pay for other peoples converter boxes.


Unless you are assoiated with the private investors that are purchasing part of the spectrum I don't think your money is paying for those converters.


----------



## scooper

rich584 said:


> Don't underestimate Esther and Warren's ability to raise holy h*** about this. And, please don't make it sound like just because they are up in years, they are stupid. I dislike discrimination of any kind and implying that senior citizens are "old geezers" or have to go to bed early or who are too dumb to watch anything of any substance borders on harassment.
> 
> Rich


Oh, they can raise as much h*** as they want, it still won't change things about the DTV transition. And I'm not saying they're stupid either - stubborn maybe, but not stupid  . I also think that once they see the PSA's and the stories on their local news broadcasts on how easy it is to convert, that most of their objections will go away.

The best thing we can do is to clarify their questions with plain, easy to understand answers as we see them come in.

And if we run out of coupons / money - well - the government can just put more money into it (even doubling it) without really effecting the revenue from the spectrum auction.


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## samhevener

Wow am I ever being beat up in this thread. All but a few are replying under fictitious names. My boss used to say, "If you don't want to put your name on something you created, you did it wrong and it has no creditability". I still say the transition will be delayed in some form. Americans really resist MAJOR change no matter how much notice they are given. The broadcasting industry keeps using figures that list how many households have access to DTV. If you have one TV set with a DTV tuner or DTV service (cable or satellite), your a DTV user already. How about your other TV sets or how about not being able to afford your cable/satellite service next year because of the coming recession? You are still considered as a household already using DTV. It's like having 2 or more cars that are paid off and fully operational. Then on a set date all your cars but one are rendered useless, unable to drive them. No problem, you have one car ready to go. If you want to use your other car(s) you have to add an adapter that may or may not allow your car run as good as in the past or buy a new one. Americans would not stand for it even if the are given the adapters for free. The DTV transition is the same thing. Television is as entrenched with Americans as cars. It's a MAJOR MAJOR change in the way we live. Many Americans won't stand for the transition the way it is now set up.


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## scooper

What do you expect in a forum of TV enthusiasts, most of whom most likely already have at least 1 HDTV so they KNOW what's coming up ? Doom and gloom will not get a positive response here. You have already been beat on this for at least 4 different threads that you started. You've also been told to get off your duff and start educating your fellow mall walkers - instead all you want to do is spout doom and gloom here, where the popular opinion is that yes, there maybe some issues, but the transition itself is like an 80 MPH freight train - really difficult to stop.


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## FTA Michael

Sam, if you argue that the transition will be a train wreck, the responses you'll get will be "Maybe it will be," or "I'm not sure," or "No, it won't." No matter how many times you talk about it that way, it's not going to generate more insight than that. And some of those "No, it won't" people feel just as passionately about it as you do.

Personally, I react better when someone says that we ought to do X because otherwise Y will be a train wreck. It's more productive to debate possible solutions than to speculate about the scope of problems.


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## tcusta00

samhevener said:


> All but a few are replying under fictitious names.


:welcome_s ...to the internet, Sam!

This really has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. If my handle were my real name what the heck difference would it make to the weight that my reply carries?


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## tcusta00

FTA Michael said:


> Personally, I react better when someone says that we ought to do X because otherwise Y will be a train wreck. It's more productive to debate possible solutions than to speculate about the scope of problems.


Exactly.


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## Upstream

samhevener said:


> I still say the transition will be delayed in some form. Americans really resist MAJOR change no matter how much notice they are given.


But that's exactly the reason it won't be delayed. Even with an additional year's notice, the resistance to the change will be the same.

Cancelling the transistion will eliminate the resistance and complaints. Delaying the transistion will NOT impact the resistance and complaints.


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## Geronimo

Again Sam why will the delay change things/ Why don't you just say that you don't want it to happen at all. 

You see no benefits coming from this but the rest of us see additional revenue for the govt. (making the deficit smaller), an elimination of the need for pwer etc to transmit the signal in two forms, and think that the obstacles can be overcome.

As for the fact that some of us do not want to use our real name on the internet that is really another topic altogether but I ask you to judge us on the value of what we say and whether we are willing to stand behind it. I do the same for you.


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## Tom Robertson

Sam,

There are a couple things. I am currently using my very real name. Previously, as tibber, I used a nickname that was pretty unique and was in a sense me. Either way, my posts change by my mood more than by username. I won't speak for anyone else, but samhevener is just as anonymous to me as Geronimo. I only know of you by your posts.

You are very right, many people resist change yet change happens every day. I'm guessing you have seen a large number of changes, I know that at the tender age 47 I have seen a fair number. And as a change agent in the workplace, I've made quite a few. 

Resisting change simply for the purpose of resisting change never works. Unfortunately, I didn't learn that as fast as I would have liked. But I changed. 

This change _will_ happen. Once that is known and accepted, then the best I can do is soften the blow of the change for myself, my family, and others. I can curse the rain for falling or I can get out my rain gear. 

You are also very right that this transition had the potential to be many trainwrecks. The FCC has taken this transition very thoughtfully and set all the milestones very far in advance to allow the audience of those milestones plenty of time. The FCC has listened to the manufacturers. They listened to the surveys that indicated 2006 was still too soon. Congress and the FCC pushed the date to 2009.

Most of the TV stations are ready. Cable and satellite are working with the stations to be ready. (Still lots of trainwreck potential there, so the FCC has adjusted to get the stations moving.)

Now the last milestone, the largest audience. The 10% that only have OTA _as well as_ the 6% that have at least one OTA only TV. The FCC isn't forgetting them. The FCC was timing things to be less confusing. If they had started the serious adverts before Feb. 2008, too many people were likely to be confused that the transition was this year, not next.

Now the adverts can take off. Equipment and coupons are in the pipelines. Last I saw, roughly 5 million coupons have been ordered already. Stores are stocking their shelves. The general awareness is increasing very nicely considering the advertising has been minimal until now. A lot of things can happen in a year. Without panic, without trains wrecking, without the sky falling.

So I ask you, can you help people in this process? What can you do to see that fewer people are badly affected. You've started by telling the mall walkers. What else can you do?

Thanks,
Tom


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## Stuart Sweet

Well said, Tom. If each DBSTalker tells one person a day for 100 days, that's five million consumers educated.


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## Greg Bimson

And I am in complete agreement with most here.

The reality is that there is a law on the books which requires the digital transition to be complete by 17 February, 2009. With the number of people holding steady at about 10 to 15 percent of the country not subscribed to a pay-TV provider, and many with TV sets that aren't hooked to that provider, what change in the deadline would make this more palatable?

If the deadline is pushed out a year, the same problems would be there. If the deadline is pushed out two years, the same problems would be there. The only way there wouldn't be problems is if everyone that has an analog-only TV set (NTSC) unconnected to a pay-TV provider replaces theirs with one that receives digital TV (ATSC).

Otherwise the same complaints would pop up approaching each deadline.


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## ub1934

Greg Bimson said:


> And I am in complete agreement with most here.
> 
> The reality is that there is a law on the books which requires the digital transition to be complete by 17 February, 2009. With the number of people holding steady at about 10 to 15 percent of the country not subscribed to a pay-TV provider, and many with TV sets that aren't hooked to that provider, what change in the deadline would make this more palatable?
> 
> If the deadline is pushed out a year, the same problems would be there. If the deadline is pushed out two years, the same problems would be there. The only way there wouldn't be problems is if everyone that has an analog-only TV set (NTSC) unconnected to a pay-TV provider replaces theirs with one that receives digital TV (ATSC).
> 
> Otherwise the same complaints would pop up approaching each deadline.


*Only if they can get OTA , where i live i get 8 analog ota with a big roof ant. but only 1 sometime DTV ota station , so let the fun begin :lol: /I]*


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## Tom Robertson

ub1934, I hope that by the transition the stations will be full power so you get more. Or that tuners improve to the point you can receive all the channels.

Good luck,
Tom


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## Doug Brott

Geronimo said:


> You see no benefits coming from this but the rest of us see additional revenue for the govt. (making the deficit smaller), an elimination of the need for pwer etc to transmit the signal in two forms, and think that the obstacles can be overcome.


This is a valid observation, but my personal feeling is that the revenue (while helpful) is really small in the grand scheme of things.

The biggest benefit I see is (1) the public safety aspect of having unified frequencies for the government/emergency agencies and (2) the new wireless frequencies available to create a new national wireless network. Both of these are something that cannot be done today because of the lack of space.


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## Geronimo

$15 billion in reveue si nothing to sneeze at---even given the size ofa federal budget.


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## Doug Brott

Geronimo said:


> $15 billion in reveue si nothing to sneeze at---even given the size ofa federal budget.


No doubt, and if I had it in my pocket .. well, that'd be really cool! 

No, more money is a good thing but it's only $50/person in the US. I just think the other reasons are more compelling.


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## ub1934

Tom Robertson said:


> ub1934, I hope that by the transition the stations will be full power so you get more. Or that *tuners *improve to the point you can receive all the channels.
> 
> Good luck,
> Tom


 I sure hope so , My HR 20-700 tells me i should get 18 OTA stations & it will pull in one 40 % of the time , my Sony Bravia will pull in one with a sub ch. 90 % of the time but that one is not from NY but in MASS, so i hope full power comes soon because OTA does look better then Directv .


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## ChrisPC

ub1934 said:


> *Only if they can get OTA , where i live i get 8 analog ota with a big roof ant. but only 1 sometime DTV ota station , so let the fun begin :lol: /I]*


_

Most of the stations will switch their digital signal to their original analog channel. If you can get the analog channel today, then you'll most likely get the digital one._


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## Doug Brott

ChrisPC said:


> Most of the stations will switch their digital signal to their original analog channel. If you can get the analog channel today, then you'll most likely get the digital one.


That's true .. where things are going to fall somewhat flat is many of the current digital versions of the channels are UHF while the analog are VHF. Folks with UHF only antennas will find it harder to get a signal .. This is an area in which I don't think folks are going to be as well informed.

It is likely that for a period both channels will be used for digital, but at some point the second version of the channel will cease to exist.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Doug Brott said:


> It is likely that for a period both channels will be used for digital, but at some point the second version of the channel will cease to exist.


At midnight 2/18/09 (2/17/09 is the last DAY for full-power analog), full-power TV stations will only be allowed a single digital signal.

Both channels can no longer be used simultaneously, after the cut-off. They will either stay put, or "move" the digital signal back to their "old" analog channel assignment.

Of course, there may be some situation somewhere that earns a special temporary waiver.


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## Tom Robertson

You are somewhat correct and somewhat incorrect. A number of stations have been granted a temporary digital assignment they are using today and will be using on February 18, 2009. Shortly after that those stations will start working on their old assignments with a digital channel. When that equipment has stabilized, they will switch one last time and turn down the temporary channel.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Kansas Zephyr

Hence my mention of a few special waivers. What is the number of stations that will "follow the rules", versus those exceptions?


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## scooper

And in thought of that - there are a couple places that I know of to find out

#1 - http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/cdbs_pa.htm
this is straight from the source, the FCC. Select application search, then on Form Number select "387" (all full power stations should have one in by now), then select one of the other critirea such as State, City of liscense, etc to find your stations. On each Form 387, you will find a place that has the station's current analog assignment, their pre-transition digital assignment, and their post-transition digital assignment.

#2 - http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php , then search for your DMA This was done by a college freshman out in Virginia, but he has done a excellent job of summarizing all the form 387's from the FCC site

#3 - www.antennaweb.org or www.tvfool.com - both of these sites will ask for your location, and then give you a list of analog and/or digital stations that you should be able to receive. They will also give you the direction you need to point your antenna in. Personally, I think tvfool.com is a better choice, and it also gives you some numbers to compare relative signal strength.


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## Tom Robertson

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Hence my mention of a few special waivers.


Those are not special waivers, they were part of the original plan all along.

Only stations that hope (foolishly) for a delay in turning off their analog will need special waivers. (Good luck...)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Kansas Zephyr

Even for those mentioned, most are still only broadcasting a single signal after the cut-off.

It just may not be on it's final channel on 2/18/09.


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## Tom Robertson

Just semantics and timing. 

Yes most of the time they are only using one digital channel and long-term, definitely only one channel. But during the whole test phase, they can and will be using two. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott

In any event, I think the channel location change is going to affect the "new wave" television viewers much more so than the older ones. The folks that have been watching digital television on the secondary band for the past few years will have to adjust back to the primary band when it is all said and done ..


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## Kansas Zephyr

Everyone will need to "re-scan" (if they can, and don't have a D* OTA capable box that uses a database) for OTA on 2/18/09, and any time a channel "disappears" until everybody stops moving.

D* and E* (plus cable cos that use OTA feeds) will need to be watching closely, too.


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## scooper

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Everyone will need to "re-scan" (if they can, and don't have a D* OTA capable box that uses a database) for OTA on 2/18/09, and any time a channel "disappears" until everybody stops moving.
> 
> D* and E* (plus cable cos that use OTA feeds) will need to be watching closely, too.


Whenever you find that you can't seem to tune the digital stations, one of the first things to try will be a re-scan, just in case the stations have moved on you.

After looking at the 387's for my area, I know that all stations will be moving to their final spot on D-Day, therefore, I KNOW I will need to do a rescan. I was thinking that I might have to do more than just one  .


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## Geronimo

Doug Brott said:


> In any event, I think the channel location change is going to affect the "new wave" television viewers much more so than the older ones. The folks that have been watching digital television on the secondary band for the past few years will have to adjust back to the primary band when it is all said and done ..


Actually after a scan you still tune in the old Ch 4 at 4 even if it has moved to 48 or whatever. It should not bea big deal fora nyone.


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## Doug Brott

Geronimo said:


> Actually after a scan you still tune in the old Ch 4 at 4 even if it has moved to 48 or whatever. It should not bea big deal fora nyone.


Unless you have a UHF only antenna  That will make it harder to pick up the VHF channels .. but yes, many folks will be able to do this just fine.


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## scooper

Coupon program status - 
As of February 21, 2008
Total accepted applications 3,063,268
Coupons ordered 5,799,974
Coupons ordered in dollars $231,998,915
Applications volume last 24 hours 103,887
Coupons volume last 24 hours 195,889
Certified retailers / Total outlets 250 / 15,000
Certified Converter Boxes / Analog Pass-through Boxes 42 / 4


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## James Long

samhevener said:


> Wow am I ever being beat up in this thread. All but a few are replying under fictitious names.


Please PM proof of identity.

Really ... why should we take someone more or less seriously just because of their username? If a username of a person opposing your viewpoint was "SamIsNutz" perhaps that would be a red flag ... but to summarily dismiss people for not using what appears to be a real name shows deep bias. You owe a lot of people an apology.

Signed: James Long ... (formerly justalurker).



> I still say the transition will be delayed in some form.


Unless you're going to get nit-picky about the form, I still say you're wrong. The media noticing stuff that was decided months ago and hyping it (such as the different timetable for low power stations) isn't a change or delay.



> It's like having 2 or more cars that are paid off and fully operational. Then on a set date all your cars but one are rendered useless, unable to drive them.


Not in this case. First of all, the "set date" is a final date. Many stations will turn off their analog before that date. Second of all, the old TVs will not be rendered useless.

This is more like the shift to unleaded gasoline where a timetable was set to remove leaded gas from the market. Old cars will still run on unleaded ... perhaps not "fully operational" but not "useless". Additives (such as an inexpensive tuner box) are available to retrofit the old to work with the new. Gas stations didn't stop providing leaded gas overnight. Toward the end there were many stations that had made the switch (much like there will be many stations not waiting for the deadline) and a few that held out as long as they could.

BTW: There will be PLENTY of NTSC signals to use ... even after February 2009. They just won't be broadcast OTA (except some low power stations). Repeat until it sinks in:
_*NTSC TVs will continue to work after February 2009. You do not need to buy a completely new TV. There are many options less than buying new TVs. NTSC TVs will not be useless.*_​


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## tcusta00

scooper said:


> Coupon program status -
> As of February 21, 2008
> Total accepted applications 3,063,268
> Coupons ordered 5,799,974
> Coupons ordered in dollars $231,998,915
> Applications volume last 24 hours 103,887
> Coupons volume last 24 hours 195,889
> Certified retailers / Total outlets 250 / 15,000
> Certified Converter Boxes / Analog Pass-through Boxes 42 / 4


I know you probably didn't come up with these numbers but this was kinda blaring - 5,799,974 times $40 can't possibly equal a number that ends in anything but a zero. It's $231,998,960. :lol:


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## scooper

It wasn't me - just a simple cut/paste from the NTIA 's status page http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/status.html - so blame the math problem on them


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## tcusta00

Yeah, like I said, I know it probably wasn't you. Should have known the source was something that ended in DOT GOV. :grin:

Thanks for the numbers. I figured they would have been through more coupons than that by now.


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## scooper

Like Tom said - it would not surprise me at all if Congress authorizes more coupons than the initial 33.5 million of them.

And this is the kind of change I can support. But the Analog shutdown date (High power) is fast setting in concrete.


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## jacksonm30354

samhevener said:


> Wow am I ever being beat up in this thread. All but a few are replying under fictitious names. My boss used to say, "If you don't want to put your name on something you created, you did it wrong and it has no creditability". I still say the transition will be delayed in some form. Americans really resist MAJOR change no matter how much notice they are given. The broadcasting industry keeps using figures that list how many households have access to DTV. If you have one TV set with a DTV tuner or DTV service (cable or satellite), your a DTV user already. How about your other TV sets or how about not being able to afford your cable/satellite service next year because of the coming recession? You are still considered as a household already using DTV. It's like having 2 or more cars that are paid off and fully operational. Then on a set date all your cars but one are rendered useless, unable to drive them. No problem, you have one car ready to go. If you want to use your other car(s) you have to add an adapter that may or may not allow your car run as good as in the past or buy a new one. Americans would not stand for it even if the are given the adapters for free. The DTV transition is the same thing. Television is as entrenched with Americans as cars. It's a MAJOR MAJOR change in the way we live. Many Americans won't stand for the transition the way it is now set up.


Give me a break! This is no different than the advent of Tv from radio. You had you programs on radio. then Tv cam along. The programs migrated to the new medium. There were no coupon programs to help people by tv's to upgrade from radio. Today, you could choose to just keep your analog tv and pay a paltry $40-$50 of which you will get a gov't coupon of $40 to adapt up to 2 of your tvs. If you have more than 2 analog tvs, then you are considered pretty well off compared to the rest of the OTA only population so there should be no complaints there. When TV came along you had to buy a whole new piece of equipment, there were no coupons to upgrade to a tv.

Digital TV vs Analog tv is no different than radio vs analog tv. It was a giant step in technology. We didn't hold back the advent of analog tv because a small percentage of the population would not be able to upgrade to the new technology.

Granted radio was never cut off. But the converters give those that are reluctant to adopt a way to hang on to their old tvs and still let the other 90% of the population progress.

The resistance to change in this country needs to come to an end. We are the only industrialized nation to not adopt the metric system. Why? Because we are lazy. It's too hard to learn something new. Why can't we just keep doing things like we always have. If we keep up that attitude, we will soon lose our position in the world.


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## jacksonm30354

ChrisPC said:


> Most of the stations will switch their digital signal to their original analog channel. If you can get the analog channel today, then you'll most likely get the digital one.


Not true. Most will be staying on their UHF frequency. So those with a UHF antenna will fair better. None of the Atlanta stations plan to revert to their old analog position. WXIA is currently analog 11, digital 10 which poses a probelm other UHF only markets won't have - the need for a VHF antenna. WSB will relinquish 2 and stay on digital 39, WAGA will give up 5 and stay on digital 27, WGCL will give up 46 and stay on digital.

My small market hometown only 1 VHF will revert to it's analog channel. (Columbus, GA. WTVM will go from digital 47 back to 9 on the conversion date. WLGA (CW) will go from digital 31 to WTVM's old digital 47 on that same date. WRBL will give up 3 and stay at 15, WXTX will give up analog 54 and stay on digital 49. WLTZ will go from alanlog 38 to digital 35.


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## James Long

Most generalizations are wrong. 


Don't make generalizations about the entire US based on a few markets.


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## samhevener

There is proof that the original plan is already going to be changed by Congress. Many of you beat up on me saying the plan was already "set in concrete". The total number of coupons to be issued was one of my first complaints in the these blogs. There will be many more changes as we get to the end of the year. On Feb 17, 2009 the plan will be changed greatly from the original. I'm going to sign out of these blogs now but I will be back in six months or so. By that time there will be many changes to the plan. I want to thank all of you for all the comments and it has been interesting and a lot of fun and all in good taste, Sam


scooper said:


> Like Tom said - it would not surprise me at all if Congress authorizes more coupons than the initial 33.5 million of them.
> 
> And this is the kind of change I can support. But the Analog shutdown date (High power) is fast setting in concrete.


----------



## Upstream

Sam -- No one is arguing here that there won't be changes in the transition plan over the next year. We've been seeing changes every month, so why would we expect changes to stop.

What we won't see is a change of the Feb 17, 2009 date.


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## tcusta00

samhevener said:


> There is proof that the original plan is already going to be changed by Congress. Many of you beat up on me saying the plan was already "set in concrete". The total number of coupons to be issued was one of my first complaints in the these blogs. There will be many more changes as we get to the end of the year. On Feb 17, 2009 the plan will be changed greatly from the original. I'm going to sign out of these blogs now but I will be back in six months or so. By that time there will be many changes to the plan. I want to thank all of you for all the comments and it has been interesting and a lot of fun and all in good taste, Sam


I don't think anyone said "the plan" was set in concrete. We were addressing your opening posit that the date will be changed. I don't feel like rereading 9 pages but I don't think anyone said that nothing would change, just that the date would stay the same.


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## Doug Brott

samhevener said:


> There is proof that the original plan is already going to be changed by Congress. Many of you beat up on me saying the plan was already "set in concrete". The total number of coupons to be issued was one of my first complaints in the these blogs. There will be many more changes as we get to the end of the year. On Feb 17, 2009 the plan will be changed greatly from the original. I'm going to sign out of these blogs now but I will be back in six months or so. By that time there will be many changes to the plan. I want to thank all of you for all the comments and it has been interesting and a lot of fun and all in good taste, Sam





tcusta00 said:


> I don't think anyone said "the plan" was set in concrete. We were addressing your opening posit that the date will be changed. I don't feel like rereading 9 pages but I don't think anyone said that nothing would change, just that the date would stay the same.


Agreed .. In fact I'm pretty sure that Tom Robertson stated quite clearly that there will probably be many "adjustments" along the way so that the date will not be in jeopardy.


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## scooper

Example of the latest adjustment - The FCC/NTIA will probably start requiring new coupon boxes to have analog passthrough, and this may even get phased in on already approved models. You can already see that that is being tracked on the NTIA status page.

I also fully expect more coupons to be made available. It would be kind of stupid to have a coupon program and all the coupons to be used up. However, I DON'T expect the rules on coupons per household to change - 2 max per household. and probably extending the number that multi-service viewers (as a group) can get.


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## James Long

samhevener said:


> There is proof that the original plan is already going to be changed by Congress.


Perhaps I missed it in all the rhetoric and unprovable predictions (which is a good reason to stay away from unprovable predictions and long winded rhetoric) ... can you please post (repost) the proof.



> Many of you beat up on me saying the plan was already "set in concrete". The total number of coupons to be issued was one of my first complaints in the these blogs. There will be many more changes as we get to the end of the year. On Feb 17, 2009 the plan will be changed greatly from the original.


And I'm sure that you will trumpet any minor change as "proof" of your speculations.

The trouble is that mixed in with the minor stuff that many of us don't believe will stay unchanged (total number of coupons given out, expiration dates, box specifications) is the ludicrous - absolute statements that the date "won't happen". Include in that emotional (and incorrect) statements about how NTSC TVs will cease to function. In my opinion, these are the areas where the insanity has entered the topic in our forum.

Getting back to the topic of what is set and what might change ... we ALL have personal opinions. We ALL look at the current plan and have an idea of how it can be done differently. And I'm sure we ALL look at potential changes biased by our opinion of what we personally want. That is where we ALL have to take a step back and look at the larger process.

Look at it from the perspective of a government agency with a mandate to get-r-done ... and look at the prior events that have influenced the process. If you expect a massive change such as pushing out the analog date look for a massive reason for making such a change. Not just a few whiny consumers ... they can be placated in easier ways than _requiring_ stations to remain analog. And that's the real trick ... look at what the deadline REALLY IS. It is the last day that full power stations will be _permitted_ to broadcast in analog. There is no reason that they cannot shut down their analog facilities before then - and many will have to do so in order to be prepared for broadcasting digital on their analog channel. This is going to be an interesting _year_ of change.

*More opinions:*
Will there be more coupons? Yes. Will there be more per household? Yes. Will the expiration date be lifted on coupons? Yes. I believe these adjustments will be made to placate the whiny consumers and compensate for the late release of converter boxes. If the government can send $600 checks to taxpayers to placate their whining about the economy they certainly can send out more $40 coupons.

Will the specs be changed on receivers? Yes and No. I believe it is too late in the process to require analog pass through on receivers ... if they do so there won't be enough converter boxes available for the need. I do believe that "additional features" will be permitted on the qualified boxes ... perhaps even allowing EchoStar to sell their TR-50 with a $40 coupon discount. Anything to get converters to market and into people's hands.


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## Doug Brott

James Long said:


> I do believe that "additional features" will be permitted on the qualified boxes ... perhaps even allowing EchoStar to sell their TR-50 with a $40 coupon discount. Anything to get converters to market and into people's hands.


James, that is possible. The TR-40 is a nice box, but the TR-50 is significantly better (IMO). Certainly the TR-50 will be more expensive that $39.99, but it will be a way to help satisfy the need if it arises.


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## James Long

> _The Act defines the term "digital-to-analog converter box" (a CECB) as "a stand-alone device that does not contain features or functions except those necessary to enable a consumer to convert any channel broadcast in the digital television service into a format that the consumer can display on television receivers designed to receive and display signals only in the analog television service, but may also include a remote control device."_
> http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2e.htm


By the letter of the wording "analog pass through" is not only not required but could be construed as a feature not required to fulfill the need. (Pass through is not required to enable a consumer to tune digital signals.) Technically, the four boxes that allow analog pass through could be considered not eligible - but that would be a really stupid decision.

"Permit but not require" decisions allows such advanced features as "smart antenna control" that reaims an antenna when the channel is changed, 300 ohm inputs (75 ohm F connectors required). Composite and RF outputs are required, S-Video is permitted (not required) - Component, DVI, HDMI and anything that would allow the converter box to be more than a "to SD" converter is prohibited.


> _NTIA clarifies in the Final Rule that CECBs are prohibited from containing items such as display screens, recorders or storage devices that go beyond the simple task of converting a digital television signal to an analog signal for display on analog television receivers._


Since this is the _opinion_ of the NTIA I hope that this opinion can be adjusted to allow for more useful boxes.

(Technially speaking, a persistant EPG could be considered a feature that is beyond the task of converting digital television to an analog signal for display. Fortunately the NTIA is permitting that feature as an option - and requiring PSIP decoding for parental controls and normal EPG.)

BTW: It would be nice if the government would get it's faqs straight -
https://www.dtv2009.gov/FAQ.aspx - "Converter Box Option" - Question 13
13. *Will I receive High-Definition TV with a converter box?*
No. Analog televisions are not capable of displaying High-Definition resolution, but the picture will generally be better with a TV converter box. If you want to view High-Definition TV, then you will need one of the newer sets rated for "High-Definition" resolution.​The more accurate answer isYES ... All 18 formats of digital television including high definition formats are required to be tunable by receivers. However converter boxes eligible under the coupon program are prohibited from outputting a high definition signal. Consumers will be able to watch High-Definition TV down-converted to a format capable of being displayed on a standard analog television. If a High-Definition display is desired then you will need one of the newer sets rated for "High-Definition" resolution and/or an appropriate non-coupon eligible tuner.​
I believe their answer confuses people who may believe they will not be able to watch TV channels that migrate to HDTV on a SDTV after February 17th, 2009. That content remains available.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> I believe their answer confuses people who may believe they will not be able to watch TV channels that migrate to HDTV on a SDTV after February 17th, 2009.


Lies always confuse people. The transition site has more than its share about something that it should be the authority on.


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## James Long

harsh said:


> Lies always confuse people. The transition site has more than its share about something that it should be the authority on.


Lies are generally malicious. I believe these are errors - perhaps generated by not really thinking through the question and all the answers - not intentional deception.

Incompetent? Maybe.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Incompetent? Maybe.


A certain amount of due diligence is required when you're creating a document that is supposed to be the go-to source of information. Where there is so much disinformation and the correct information is codified, adding to the disinformation tangentially approaches criminal negligence.

I'm pretty sure that only Micro$oft can get away with this.


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## Geronimo

samhevener said:


> There is proof that the original plan is already going to be changed by Congress. Many of you beat up on me saying the plan was already "set in concrete". The total number of coupons to be issued was one of my first complaints in the these blogs. There will be many more changes as we get to the end of the year. On Feb 17, 2009 the plan will be changed greatly from the original. I'm going to sign out of these blogs now but I will be back in six months or so. By that time there will be many changes to the plan. I want to thank all of you for all the comments and it has been interesting and a lot of fun and all in good taste, Sam


Sam that is not "proof" of anything. Everyting in your posts is just dark speculation.

BTW this is not ablo.


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## HIPAR

Owing to the overall complexity of the transition, the FCC has indeed been adjusting the rules to facilitate it but there has been no indication that anyone, except low power stations, will allowed to continue analog transmissions. Simply, the law prohibits that.

The real mess will occur when those who are currently watching a usable analog station cannot get digital to work. There will be cases where a $40 converter box requires a $300 antenna. There will be cases where viewers tolerating a poor analog picture will loose digital reception because they are outside a licensed service contour.

We might even see demands to subsidize cable or DBS for the poor who are in a no reception situation.

--- CHAS


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## Kansas Zephyr

HIPAR said:


> The real mess will occur when those who are currently watching a usable analog station cannot get digital to work. There will be cases where a $40 converter box requires a $300 antenna. There will be cases where viewers tolerating a poor analog picture will loose digital reception because they are outside a licensed service contour.


If you have a usable analog signal, you will more than likely have a fine digital one. The FCC considers 56dBu for VHF, 61 dBu for UHF, the primary contour for analog, and only 41dBu for digital. It takes less signal to saturate the receiver.

Several stations will "move" their digital signal back to their old analog channel. The exceptions are mostly VHF low 2-6 stations, that fear problems due to multi-path and "ignition" noise.

So, most people that are "antenna only" will simply recycle their current one, at no additional cost.


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## Nick

Take No Chances -- Order Your Digital, Color-compatible Rabbit Ears Before the Last-minute Rush!


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## HIPAR

Kansas Zephyr said:


> If you have a usable analog signal, you will more than likely have a fine digital one. The FCC considers 56dBu for VHF, 61 dBu for UHF, the primary contour for analog, and only 41dBu for digital. It takes less signal to saturate the receiver.
> 
> Several stations will "move" their digital signal back to their old analog channel. The exceptions are mostly VHF low 2-6 stations, that fear problems due to multi-path and "ignition" noise.
> 
> So, most people that are "antenna only" will simply recycle their current one, at no additional cost.


Yes .. I'm somewhat aware of the points you're making. But I'm still skeptical. There will be many VHF stations moving to UHF and I have always found UHF reception to be problematic.

I have no reception on UHF here in the Pocono Mountains of NE Pa. I'm expecting to loose the 100 mile distant VHF stations from Philadelphia and New York City that provide noisy but (usually) watchable pictures; only about three of them will be returning to VHF with WPVI (Phila) returning to Channel 6. Somehow, I don't believe my case is unique.

--- CHAS


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## Kansas Zephyr

Have you even tried digital, yet?

When you do, then you'll have your answer, instead of speculation.


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## scooper

Have you checked on www.tvfool.com what your situation really is ?


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## jclewter79

What will we have to talk about this time next year?


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## tcusta00

We won't be talking here - the "SDTV shutdown mess" will cripple all infrastructure and the internet will be a relic of times past. Stock up on duct tape, plastic wrap and bottled water before it's too late!! :lol:


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## HIPAR

scooper said:


> Have you checked on www.tvfool.com what your situation really is ?


Certainly. Using my GPS coordinates and running a post transition DTV only analysis, the strongest UHF signals are predicted to be -105 dBm. I'm not holding on to much hope of receiving them.

On VHF the strongest signals come from Scranton at -90 dBm with the rest at -110 dBm. In practice, I've never been able to receive any stations from there.

Tvfool says there should be receivable translators from Stroudsburg but I can physically see the mountain that shadows them from me.

The Pocono Mountains is a tough area.

--- CHAS


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## jclewter79

UHF broadcast farther than VHF.


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## Nick

jclewter79 said:


> UHF broadcast farther than VHF.


That is totally and absolutely wrong! If you knew _anything_ about the propogation 
characteristics of radio waves, you wouldn't have made such a comment.

VHF (Very High Frequency) transmissions are broadcast at lower frequencies
than (not then) UHF (Ultra High Frequency) signals, and lower frequency signals
have longer wavelengths. All things being equal, the longer the wavelength, the
greater the propogation (distance).


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## dave1234

Nick said:


> Take No Chances -- Order Your Digital, Color-compatible Rabbit Ears Before the Last-minute Rush!


You left out High Definition. Without out High Def. rabbit ears I'll be stuck with plain old SD. :hurah:


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## Stuart Sweet

There is a new, official discussion thread on this topic:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=121089

and as with the "format war" discussion, we're going to keep it to one thread.


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