# Now that 11b has gone national...



## jlancaster (Feb 10, 2006)

Any chance of a RC this week??


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## Camaro305 (Sep 27, 2006)

jlancaster said:


> Any chance of a RC this week??


Cupid's coming soon.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Before cupid we have SB or XLI or Bears/Colts


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Cupid would be three weeks away. Surely to goodness we can get a Groundhog or something first, eh?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I understand that there are still people who are unhappy with 0x11b, and if I were one of them, I'd be hoping for another release candidate soon. However, I think that it might be best, as long as those folks still having problems can limp along, to let the developers have a little time to tackle the last of the stability issues. With 0x10b, there really seemed to be a pattern where more problems showed up over time. If we continue reporting on issues with this release for at least two or three weeks, it might surprise us and become more stable, or it might degrade like 0x10b did. 

What I'm hoping for is that the next release is so solid, removes so many of the software gremlins, that the problems left just might be solved with swapping out the box, or might be so infrequent that we can live with them long term. 

If the HR20 got to that level of reliability, I'd think that most of the developers could then be deployed to adding new features. 

I'm hoping for the next national release, the one I want to pin my hopes on, to be around 2/28 or maybe a week later.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I would be happy if they left it in testing more than they have for the last several releases. They seem to go national before the bugs come out. What's the point of "our testing"? If D* puts it in the stream so quickly. I didn't have a problem with 0119 [yet] that I knew of & have had problems with 011b within FOUR DAYS!!! But it now national so I can't go back as we were told we could. Expletives omitted....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> I would be happy if they left it in testing more than they have for the last several releases. They seem to go national before the bugs come out. What's the point of "our testing"? If D* puts it in the stream so quickly. I didn't have a problem with 0119 [yet] that I knew of & have had problems with 011b within FOUR DAYS!!! But it now national so I can't go back as we were told we could. Expletives omitted....


As I have explained a few times now...

They are between a rock and hard place at the moment.

The last national release 0x10b has some HORRIFIC issues with it. Significant enough to actually spike the call center with calls.

They had to do something, and do something now. 
Their hopes where on 0x115 two weeks ago. Then 0x119...
Now 0x11b

And even though there are issues that have been reported... just comparing the download level vs reported issues... with 0x115/0x119 vs 0x11b the improvement is there in the sheer volume of reports... WAY down.

So while 0x11b was not "perfect" or the silver bullet... It is a major step forward for most of the population, when compared to 0x10b.

Yes, there are some that took a step backwards, and that is not good.
But... that is going to happen to ever release... there is going to be a population that has issues... why... I don't know... but at this "point"..... IMHO, they have very little choice... and could not sit on yet another release... for say another week or two or three..


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I would be happy with 0119 back, as it didn't miss any recording [for me], but I know YMMV.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> I would be happy with 0119 back, as it didn't miss any recording [for me], but I know YMMV.


Try forcing the download again... maybe a "second pass" will do something for you. Kinda like what happens on a computer when you uninstall and reinstall a driver.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Try forcing the download again... maybe a "second pass" will do something for you. Kinda like what happens on a computer when you uninstall and reinstall a driver.


Will do & thanks... It's worth a try & I have nothing to lose.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As I have explained a few times now...
> 
> They are between a rock and hard place at the moment.
> 
> ...


Well said, though I would question whether there has been enough time elapsed to see a real trend in call center chatter. I recall thinking that 0x10B was "da shiz" and even campaigning to get the word out that the HR20 was ready for prime time. Three days later came a catastrophic failure, to which the software may or may not have contributed, and my first real taste of the problems which many others have endured for months.

So far I've been stable since January 11 (I think that was the day after my last IKD bug), with the only reboots having been for software updates. I'm hoping to have 30 days reboot-free. As some of the "anonymous" support groups say, it's all baby steps.

I think that the folks at DirecTV did the right thing by getting 0x11b to national release quickly, and now I hope they have the good fortune to leave it in national release long enough to see what it's really all about.

Please, though, please consider enabling the "messages" subsystem so people out there know that there's been a new software release. What's the harm in that?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> ...
> Please, though, please consider enabling the "messages" subsystem so people out there know that there's been a new software release. What's the harm in that?


Imagine mom and pop user, getting a message that their software upgraded. And "suddenly" in their mind the remote control stops working--cuz the battery died; or a new light bulb is interfering with IR. They call and say "your upgrade broke things" and everyone is chasing down the wrong diagnostic tree...

I suggest, for everyone's consideration, an idea about how to handle messages. What if we only received messages about major upgrades were new features were added. This system seems like it minimizes panic calls for every little bug release, but also communicates when new things are available (and after we get past the current instability) and does indicate times when the system might be a bit less stable while the features are newly deployed.

And, (note to D*) if written by marketing, the messages can become another tool for positioning...

Cheers,
Tom


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## indy300 (Sep 22, 2006)

Does this release give OTA ability to those who are able?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

indy300 said:


> Does this release give OTA ability to those who are able?


OTA was introduced with the 0x10b back in December.

0x11b did not remove that functionality... So yes... If you have an OTA antenna, you can get OTA with 0x11b


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Good point, Tom.

Here's a counter: If you call for support, and DirecTV determines (correctly or incorrectly, that's not the point) that your issue is software-related, your receiver is flagged for a message when the next release goes national. A polite message that says, "We're sorry you've experienced issues. We've just updated our software to hopefully address some of them. Please call us if you're still seeing the same behavior." I grant you that there would be an increase in call volume but they would be able to more quickly gauge the effectiveness of the updates. If you don't call them about a problem, and there's nothing new to tell you feature-wise, they leave you alone. 

Yes, indy300, you should be able to use your OTA antenna to receive and record now. Connect the antenna line and go to Menu>Help and Settings>Setup>Sat&Ant and run ATSC setup. (oops, Earl beat me to that one)


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## mocciat (Oct 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> OTA was introduced with the 0x10b back in December.
> 
> 0x11b did not remove that functionality... So yes... If you have an OTA antenna, you can get OTA with 0x11b


When did 11b go national as of sunday night i still had 119? At work now but will check when I get home if 11b has come down.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

0x11b went national this morning.


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## Car1181 (Mar 30, 2006)

I have a scheduled install today 1-5PM. When all is said and done should the software version on the HR20 be 11b?? Thanks.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As I have explained a few times now...
> 
> They are between a rock and hard place at the moment.
> 
> ...


So what's the deal Earl? Are they just flailing in the dark? Are there some fundamental design issues with the software base that makes it so hard to get everything fixed? I have a hard time believing it's just the "variety of user environments" when the problems seem so "basic" (e.g. recording without error, trick-play) and other DVRs (except the R15) have mostly been able to handle all those environments.

Yes, it does appear to be getting better, but as you point out, despite nearly 4 months of releases, DTV still seems to put out new releases that sometimes make things worse. That's not all that encouraging.

It feels like 11b is basically going into "national testing", or, as you said, it's "something" to "hopefully placate" those that experienced horrible issues with the last release.

I'm being totally serious - what is going on?

As I'm sure you've seen with the R15, the DirecTV-created DVRs can stay unfortunately unstable for a long time. I'm surprised they haven't just given up on the R15 by now and replaced it with something else.


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## Camaro305 (Sep 27, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I would be happy if they left it in testing more than they have for the last several releases. They seem to go national before the bugs come out. What's the point of "our testing"? If D* puts it in the stream so quickly. I didn't have a problem with 0119 [yet] that I knew of & have had problems with 011b within FOUR DAYS!!! But it now national so I can't go back as we were told we could. Expletives omitted....


"Our testing" is more like a preview (treat). It's likely that it's been tested already, and declared a good candidate for release, hence the name, release candidate.


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## Camaro305 (Sep 27, 2006)

Car1181 said:


> I have a scheduled install today 1-5PM. When all is said and done should the software version on the HR20 be 11b?? Thanks.


Yes


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Do I think they are "flailing in the dark"... hardly.
I just think that some of the "symptoms" are the results of different things... 

So as they fix 1 or 2 or three...what ever... there is just another thing, that results in what we see as the same problem.

Part of it also is that none of these problems are repeatable on command... 
I don't think any of the reported issues, have an EXACT pattern to reproduce them. And that just add's to the difficulty..... Solving the problems is the easy part, finding the cause is the difficult part.

0x11b is not "national testing"... It is the next step... It is not perfect... but it is an improvement from 0x10b... which frankly is what they compared... The question was... Did 0x11b fix the critical issues that they where seeing on 0x10b.... And is it good enough, that we can put it out there... while we work on the next version (and test it). 

0x10b had an extremely high rate of failed recordings...


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

The 11B software is the step in the right direction, We finally have a REAL 
HD-DVR NOW!!!!
:icon_da:


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

hey Earl and team,

Rather than read through about 15 pages of "issues' for this firmware release, can you summerize the known issues that are left with this? Since I forced the download for this on Friday night, my system seems very stable. I'm sure some of my biggest pet peeves haven't been addressed (such as the padding issues), but it SEEMS to be recording and playing back as it should and there seems to be no problems with watching live TV. The only thing I still can't get working is the networking, which I don't care too much about. WMP doesn't seem to see the HR20, even though my router has given it an IP and the router sees the internet.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jcricket said:


> It feels like 11b is basically going into "national testing", or, as you said, it's "something" to "hopefully placate" those that experienced horrible issues with the last release.
> 
> I'm being totally serious - what is going on?


It appears that DirecTV is incrementally fixing problems, yes. However, the more problems that get whacked, the fewer problems that exist overall. Baby steps to make things better.

Honestly, though, while I do believe that the release candidate program has been a success, I also think that there has been an urge by some folks to denigrate the process. Constructive criticism is one thing, but anger and malice bring nothing positive to the table. Frustration is currently the middle name of the HR20 for some folks. I'd like to see that frustration channeled toward a productive outcome so that we can all benefit.


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## RMSko (Aug 23, 2006)

BobV said:


> The 11B software is the step in the right direction, We finally have a REAL
> HD-DVR NOW!!!!
> :icon_da:


Hmmmm - not for everyone. I've had three missed recordings and two freezeups with 11B.


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## mark_winn (Nov 3, 2005)

Can somone tell me how to force a software update ? A search showed that Reset then type in 0 2 4 6 8. Is this the only way ?


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

mark_winn said:


> Can somone tell me how to force a software update ? A search showed that Reset then type in 0 2 4 6 8. Is this the only way ?


Yes. Hit the reset button on the HR20 and punch in 0 2 4 6 8 on the remote once you seen the first screen during the bootup process. Only enter the code once. Afterwards it should start downloading the update.


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## mark_winn (Nov 3, 2005)

PoitNarf said:


> Yes. Hit the reset button on the HR20 and punch in 0 2 4 6 8 on the remote once you seen the first screen during the bootup process. Only enter the code once. Afterwards it should start downloading the update.


Thanks !


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> Good point, Tom.
> 
> Here's a counter: If you call for support, and DirecTV determines (correctly or incorrectly, that's not the point) that your issue is software-related, your receiver is flagged for a message when the next release goes national. A polite message that says, "We're sorry you've experienced issues. We've just updated our software to hopefully address some of them. Please call us if you're still seeing the same behavior." I grant you that there would be an increase in call volume but they would be able to more quickly gauge the effectiveness of the updates. If you don't call them about a problem, and there's nothing new to tell you feature-wise, they leave you alone.


I like! Good suggestion and it gives D* another opportunity to make the customer feel special.

Cheers,
Tom


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## jlancaster (Feb 10, 2006)

brott said:


> Honestly, though, while I do believe that the release candidate program has been a success, I also think that there has been an urge by some folks to denigrate the process. Constructive criticism is one thing, but anger and malice bring nothing positive to the table. Frustration is currently the middle name of the HR20 for some folks. I'd like to see that frustration channeled toward a productive outcome so that we can all benefit.


Couldn't agree more...I just love testing this thing and now that I have two of them I like to leave one in the national release and put the other one in release candidate and do comparative testing too...that said I don't get mad/upset if something happens to the RC receiver just report back...No sense getting mad about a RC you are opting in and can opt out if things get really bad...if everybody starts screaming and hollering about a RC they might think twice about this fantastic option given to us....anyway looking forward to more testing


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Car1181 said:


> I have a scheduled install today 1-5PM. When all is said and done should the software version on the HR20 be 11b?? Thanks.


Yes. The installer may even do the download while he/she is still there.


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## solo1026 (Mar 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Try forcing the download again... maybe a "second pass" will do something for you. Kinda like what happens on a computer when you uninstall and reinstall a driver.


That help me out with 0x10b. It may work with 0x11b.


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## SAlBO (Jan 6, 2007)

I have a newbie question......

If watching live TV when D* sends an upgrade does it blank the screen and spin the wheel ? I was just reading this thread and was getting ready to force 11b and a prompt came up saying it was getting ready to download new software and gave the # as 11b and did I want to download it now or later. I entered now and the screen went blank with a no signal prompt on the TV...Is this the way it should happen ? Im used to all my others doing it in the mddle of the night......Thanks for everyone's input and posts. I have been reading over here for a few weeks and have learned a lot in preparation of my new DVR.....

evidently this is correct because it just came on the screen checking sat signals....How do we set this up to do it when we arent watching Tv ? Not that I am complaining but it kind of scared me after reading so many of the horror stories or reboots and blank screens....


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

I think 11b is an upgrade from 10b from what I have noticed shortly

BUT

I think we need to give 11b a few more days before we know exactly how great it really is of an upgrade


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

SAlBO said:


> I have a newbie question......
> 
> If watching live TV when D* sends an upgrade does it blank the screen and spin the wheel ? I was just reading this thread and was getting ready to force 11b and a prompt came up saying it was getting ready to download new software and gave the # as 11b and did I want to download it now or later. I entered now and the screen went blank with a no signal prompt on the TV...Is this the way it should happen ? Im used to all my others doing it in the mddle of the night......Thanks for everyone's input and posts. I have been reading over here for a few weeks and have learned a lot in preparation of my new DVR.....
> 
> evidently this is correct because it just came on the screen checking sat signals....How do we set this up to do it when we arent watching Tv ? Not that I am complaining but it kind of scared me after reading so many of the horror stories or reboots and blank screens....


Oh, I'd be complaining if I was watching something that was "must see" for me, or recording something (especially if I wasn't home and my recording didn't happen).

IIRC, all the D* Tivo updates happened early morning hours.


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## mocciat (Oct 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As I have explained a few times now...
> 
> They are between a rock and hard place at the moment.
> 
> ...


The thing that worries me is I had no problems with 10b now the other day I got 119 with no issues. Today I hear that 11b is going national; the odds that things will go sour are getting higher.

I wish that if you have stability under one software version you can stick to that version. I know that things have been good with 10b and 119. I have no idea how things will be affected with 11b. Why can't I just stay with what works?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

mocciat said:


> Why can't I just stay with what works?


My guess: the support burden is too high. At least with everyone on one version, the CSRs can track what issues are really out there. I don't want to bag on them, but do you really think customer service would be better if they had to deal with support issues unique to multiple versions?


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

jlancaster said:


> Couldn't agree more...I just love testing this thing and now that I have two of them I like to leave one in the national release and put the other one in release candidate and do comparative testing too...that said I don't get mad/upset if something happens to the RC receiver just report back...No sense getting mad about a RC you are opting in and can opt out if things get really bad...if everybody starts screaming and hollering about a RC they might think twice about this fantastic option given to us....anyway looking forward to more testing


If thats the case, D* should be handing out free HR20's to anyone that feels like beta-testing (sign contracts, whatever to "join in"). It also enforces the whole "why should we have to pay to be beta-testers" argument, because there are people using the only unit they have and presumably paid for (anywhere from shipping cost all the way to full 299.00 price) to beta-test. Yes, its a choice they make, but its in D*'s best interests at this point to make friends with those willing to help out, and offering a box to play with would make a really nice friend.

Personally, Id love to have a 2nd HR20 so I could beta-test with, especially if it would keep my current (and stable) HR20 from getting forced upgrades. I wonder if I could call D* and get an even better deal than I did on the first one 

-Chris


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

chrisexv6 said:


> If thats the case, D* should be handing out free HR20's to anyone that feels like beta-testing (sign contracts, whatever to "join in"). It also enforces the whole "why should we have to pay to be beta-testers" argument, because there are people using the only unit they have and presumably paid for (anywhere from shipping cost all the way to full 299.00 price) to beta-test. Yes, its a choice they make, but its in D*'s best interests at this point to make friends with those willing to help out, and offering a box to play with would make a really nice friend.
> 
> Personally, Id love to have a 2nd HR20 so I could beta-test with, especially if it would keep my current (and stable) HR20 from getting forced upgrades. I wonder if I could call D* and get an even better deal than I did on the first one
> 
> -Chris


I disagree with this assessment. A paying customer is more likely to be 100% honest. One of the potential outcome of this method is the customer completely walking away. While this would not be the desired outcome for DirecTV, it certainly would give them some useful information. How may people would continue to stick with the program if it were lined with plenty of incentives even if EVERYTHING went wrong? It would no longer be an accurate representation of a "real" customer.


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## mocciat (Oct 17, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> My guess: the support burden is too high. At least with everyone on one version, the CSRs can track what issues are really out there. I don't want to bag on them, but do you really think customer service would be better if they had to deal with support issues unique to multiple versions?


Well the best support I've ever gotten has been here. Honestly when things were unstable I got very little support and satisfaction from Tech support other than "we will document that the sports subscriptions delete themselves and send it to the higher tech support". I never heard anything after those calls but I did get answers here.

Not complaining my unit has been stable for a while just stating facts.

For what it's worth


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

brott said:


> I disagree with this assessment. A paying customer is more likely to be 100% honest. One of the potential outcome of this method is the customer completely walking away. While this would not be the desired outcome for DirecTV, it certainly would give them some useful information. How may people would continue to stick with the program if it were lined with plenty of incentives even if EVERYTHING went wrong? It would no longer be an accurate representation of a "real" customer.


I agree, but I was thinking more along the lines of the (obvious) techies here willing to lend a hand to help out. Honestly I think most of everyone here beats the heck outta each RC/national release just because they are techies who want to know it works perfectly. Paying for the box or not.

I wasnt intending on handing out boxes to everyone that asked, but I guess the logistics of handing out beta-test boxes based on DBSTalk usernames probably isnt very simple 

-Chris


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

chrisexv6 said:


> I agree, but I was thinking more along the lines of the (obvious) techies here willing to lend a hand to help out. Honestly I think most of everyone here beats the heck outta each RC/national release just because they are techies who want to know it works perfectly. Paying for the box or not.
> 
> I wasnt intending on handing out boxes to everyone that asked, but I guess the logistics of handing out beta-test boxes based on DBSTalk usernames probably isnt very simple
> 
> -Chris


Fair enough. Yes, many of the folks here (all?) are techies by nature and become enamored by the HR20. With all of the high IQs here, it's a wonder we get anything accomplished :lol: . Still, this is the best place to find a group of real customers. I'm just glad I jumped in early despite the hangups.


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## jlancaster (Feb 10, 2006)

chrisexv6 said:


> If thats the case, D* should be handing out free HR20's to anyone that feels like beta-testing (sign contracts, whatever to "join in").
> -Chris


Look I see what you are saying and this may sound a bit 'off the wall' (thats me for sure)...Its a bit like high quality dog breeding...most don't do it for the money indeed most must work full time to support this endeavor...so why do breeders do it? For the love of it and to preserve "best qualities" of the breed and so it remains recognizable and unique.

Was that too strange of an analogy?:grin:


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

brott said:


> I'm just glad I jumped in early despite the hangups.


Yes, think of how much more satisfying it will be when the HR20 is working completely reliably. Someone who gets one at that point won't appreciate it as much.


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## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

This is a rant- so I have warned you 

Man, I just have a hard time comprehending what is going on over there. In the end (and no offense to Earl or anyone involved with D*) it simply seems they did not, and still do not have the expertise to create their own DVR's - I dont know how the consumer can conclude otherwise.

I think the HR20 has SO MUCH potential in that the interface is quick, attractive and in the end, I think can be a TIVO "beater", but stability and basic DVR functions still not operating nearly 1/2 year after launch is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. Its one thing to have to release a patch or two to bring the final features up to snuff, but it seems like we are getting almost complete code re-writes each "bi-weekly" update. And then, from the way it sounds, D* is just taking a shot in the dark with these..."doing somehting just to calm the storm of calls to customer service". Its just unbeleivable the ineptness. Not to rehash old threads, but the old thread about us all being fired if we put out crap like this at our jobs is STILL relevant. I am very tech savvy (or whatever you call it) and I can't imagine my in-laws dealing with these load of dung. If I told my father in las to do a red button reset or check the b-band converters, he would say, "what the frick is this s#@t??"

And I dont want to hear from the fan boys saying the problems are rare. Earls comment about the call center being jammed with issues can finally put that to bed. 

My problems are sporadic - but they are still problems and problems that arise at the worst time and cause me forever to be concerned I will need to do another reset while somehting I want to watch is recording.

I have pplayed w/ the Comcast HD DVR and the Dish HD DVR, and while I think the HR20 has the slickest interfact, the times I have spent at relatives houses w/ these competing systems, never was a red button reset required. I have had to red button reset multiple times in front of guests - talk about a great endorsement for D*!!!! 

I dont want to rehash the TIVO debate, as its not the point of this rant, but, sadly, it all leads back to it. There is a reason Toyota doesnt make TV's or Xerox doesnt make computers. There is a reason companies like Hitachi buy their plasma screens from other providers than making their own to save a buck. THEY ARENT EXPERTS ON IT. 

Leave the DVR business to the experts - and TIVO was and is an expert. The two DVRs from D* have been absolute disasters (and dont argue they arent disasters - my mom has the SD DVR and that puppy still requires the occasional reset when I get calls at 10PM asking me what is going on with ther D* box - after I have raved how great TIVO has been - needless to say, she doesnt share my joy with DVRs)

And I am sure there would have been issues with an MPEG4 HD DVR from TIVO, but I just cant imagine they would be at this level. Plus, D* could have but the onus on TIVO about tyring to fix it themselves - which at this point - I have to assume may never happen with the HR20 - many of us may be living with RBR for the life of the HR20.

Earl, you know better than I have, and I am sure their backs are against the wall, and the programmers should not lose their jobs, as it was the Execs decision to go in house and save a few bucks rather than stickign with a consumer powerhouse brand (TIVO) and making that the underlying code of all their DVRs. The brand power D* and TIVO could have created together could have beautiful.

Maybe w/ Liberty at the helm things get cleaned up, as I have recco'd D* for the last time...

Here's hoping for a brighter future w/ the HR20, but 5 months of problems dont point to such an occurance....


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Your rant was not at all unreasonable.



cookpr said:


> Man, I just have a hard time comprehending what is going on over there. In the end (and no offense to Earl or anyone involved with D*) it simply seems they did not, and still do not have the expertise to create their own DVR's - I dont know how the consumer can conclude otherwise.


That is exactly my concern as well. D* has zero track record of producing reliable DVRs, so we're dealing with faith and not evidence.

I believe that they overestimated their internal capability to develop the necessary software in the planned time frame. Market pressures for a device that recorded MPEG4 led to the box being released earlier than it should have been.

I do believe that they're working furiously on the HR20, and believe that they will get it right. Worst case, they have to hire more experienced programming talent and it will take longer than we'd like. I also think that the times being so unsettled for D* w/ the whole News Corp/Liberty deal has not helped things. Doesn't create a good atmosphere for employees.

"Make or buy" decisions can be tough. In the short term, this has not proven to be a wise one for D*. In the long term, we will see.


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## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 0x11b is not "national testing"... It is the next step... It is not perfect... but it is an improvement from 0x10b... which frankly is what they compared... The question was... Did 0x11b fix the critical issues that they where seeing on 0x10b.... And is it good enough, that we can put it out there... while we work on the next version (and test it).
> 
> 0x10b had an extremely high rate of failed recordings...


Thanks again for the response, but I don't really buy the "bugs aren't easily reproducible" argument. Shouldn't DirecTV have a test environment in place that better mimics the variety of real world conditions? It's not like they don't know what their customer install base is like, and the specifications of MPEG2/MPEG4, their dishes, multiswitches, etc.

Yes, I'm glad that 0x11b was rushed out to fix 0x10b problems - that's better than the alternative of just ignoring/waiting. However, the fact that 6 months post initial release, they offer up 0x10b, with what you describe as an "extremely high rate of failed recordings, is not an encouraging sign.

So, while I understand DirecTV may feel 0x11b is a "release candidate" or "ready for national release", I'd think it's more accurate to describe it as just another release sent off to the "national test environment" (i.e. their HR20 customer base).

I'm not trying to be overly critical, but I manage software + system implementations. If I gave my my customers (clinicians, doctors, administrators) a new production system, and then it took 14 releases, with some of them actually worse than the previous one, I'd be so fired (along with the dev team). I seriously think the people at DirecTV should admit their at that point. Maybe consider bringing in some "big guns" if they can't get this right by the 9 month mark (another 2-3 months)?


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

jcricket said:


> If I gave my my customers (clinicians, doctors, administrators) a new production system, and then it took 14 releases, with some of them actually worse than the previous one, I'd be so fired (along with the dev team). I seriously think the people at DirecTV should admit their at that point. Maybe consider bringing in some "big guns" if they can't get this right by the 9 month mark (another 2-3 months)?


...and its 14 releases w/ minimal progress....I would say my HR20 is running at about the same level as it was in Aug 2006....

14 RELEASES AND STILL 14 MORE TO GO (at least....)

nono2: :nono2: :nono2:


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

BobV said:


> The 11B software is the step in the right direction, We finally have a REAL
> HD-DVR NOW!!!!
> :icon_da:


Boy, I wish I could share your excitement...if this is a step in the right direction we need to be headed left :grin:


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jcricket said:


> Thanks again for the response, but I don't really buy the "bugs aren't easily reproducible" argument. Shouldn't DirecTV have a test environment in place that better mimics the variety of real world conditions? It's not like they don't know what their customer install base is like, and the specifications of MPEG2/MPEG4, their dishes, multiswitches, etc.
> 
> Yes, I'm glad that 0x11b was rushed out to fix 0x10b problems - that's better than the alternative of just ignoring/waiting. However, the fact that 6 months post initial release, they offer up 0x10b, with what you describe as an "extremely high rate of failed recordings, is not an encouraging sign.
> 
> ...


Then you should know from being a manager.
If you can't reproduce it... how can you test for it, to see if you have fixed it?

I have tried nearly every combination of things people have posted here that "brakes" there system... and it doesn't brake mine.
I record a lot of the same shows as everyone else... 24, Heros, ect.... still no problems.
I use the system with 30s, skip to tick, ota, jump around, search, ect... still no problems.

And that is what I mean by things not being reproducable.
Short of going line by line through the code... You have no place to even start, if you can not reproduce the bugs consistantly...

There testing systems, do simulate home usage... why would it not?

And again.. this is *NOT* the same enviornment that any of work in. The same dynamics are not there... In my previous job... I wrote an insurance subsystem that stayed in "beta test" for 18 months... with no functional changes... with just maybe a dozen bug fixes, in the first 6 months.

When I left there a year ago... they where just rolling it out the 6th location (out of 270)... now a year later... they are only up to 12....

DirecTV doesn't have that luxury right now, to have a "beta test" of the next version last a year... at least not at this point...

You have users out there... not using authorized multiswitches... using incorrect cable types... TV's that are not compliant on HDMI... poor dish assemblies... different guide data for locals... ect... so no matter HOW big you setup a test enviornment, you are simply not going to be testing everything.

What are the "big guns" going to do... this is a custom built system... a system built by the people using it. I could go in there as a software developer, and who is to say I could make a difference... or the next guy... or your "big gun" on your staff.

You could argue that "everything" from "every company" that is setup out, is to a national "test enviornment".. Apple, Microsoft, Heck... Even Google and others, put their "betas" out there as their production systems.

I ask you... IF you did ALL your testing of your product... everything passed.. Months of Beta testing... and yet when you rolled it... there was a problem... a significant problem.... What do you do? You try to fix it, right? Then you try to figure out WHY it happened, and why it was missed in testing...

And that is the exact same thing they are doing here... each "version" they have adjusted their testing models... If you have noticed, that are "version" numbers are skipped... why? because during their testing they have found items.

Stabing in the dark...would be releasing the next compiled version and hoping it worked.


----------



## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

cookpr said:


> Boy, I wish I could share your excitement...if this is a step in the right direction we need to be headed left :grin:


:lol:


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I ask you... IF you did ALL your testing of your product... everything passed.. Months of Beta testing... and yet when you rolled it... there was a problem... a significant problem.... What do you do? You try to fix it, right? Then you try to figure out WHY it happened, and why it was missed in testing...


No offense intended to anyone at DirecTV involved with the development, but it is very hard for me to believe that the HR20 was properly, thoroughly and widely tested before release. There were issues that were quickly identified by a significant number of users quite soon after it appeared. If they indeed did months of beta testing, then they seriously need to take a look at the methodology and the way in which testers are chosen/invited...because it's not working. So yes, they really do need to find out why things were missed in testing.

Or...were things found, but management decided that shipping dates needed to be met anyway?

I certainly don't know, but I have my own guess.


----------



## kfcrosby (Dec 17, 2006)

True Definition of Software upgrade....

Take old bugs out

Put new bugs in.


----------



## jlancaster (Feb 10, 2006)

how does that help?


----------



## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> No offense intended to anyone at DirecTV involved with the development, but it is very hard for me to believe that the HR20 was properly, thoroughly and widely tested before release. There were issues that were quickly identified by a significant number of users quite soon after it appeared. If they indeed did months of beta testing, then they seriously need to take a look at the methodology and the way in which testers are chosen/invited...because it's not working. So yes, they really do need to find out why things were missed in testing.
> 
> Or...were things found, but management decided that shipping dates needed to be met anyway?
> 
> I certainly don't know, but I have my own guess.


I think that point has been made several times before. I don't think Earl or anyone else will fight that the HR-20 was shipped "ready for prime time".

Let's try not to beat a dead horse. :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If you can't reproduce it... how can you test for it, to see if you have fixed it?


Answer - you can't.

Those of us who work regularly with software...this process is de ja vu.

Apparently no one has taken their car into the shop for a problem noise only to not have the noise disappear for the mechanic. "What problem". Good luck fixing it.

That is why the field testing some of us do wiht release Candidates helps - we can check out what has been tested internally as stable code "in the real world", which a Billion Dollar Lab cannot recreate. We uncover things, report back, and then they can be addressed. Don't think this testing method is either new or unique to D*TV - nope.

I see it firsthand in my job and with 3 other Fortune 500 software giants I've worked for before.

If someone can figure out a way to simulate and test *every* installation configuration possible, *every* cable type, length, and layout reproduction, *every* one of the button presses in *every* one of the millions of sequence combinations possible, and with every HD display on the market today in a lab - let me know - I have an open Q/A manager's position that I can get you into for big bucks right away. 

This dead horse is now dead.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Radio Enginerd said:


> I think that point has been made several times before. I don't think Earl or anyone else will fight that the HR-20 was shipped "ready for prime time".
> 
> Let's try not to beat a dead horse.


I will try not to


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## traderfjp (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm averaging 1 reboot each day with the Raven release. The last two releases before Raven were solid. I hope they fix this mess soon.


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## clay_w (Dec 7, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Answer - you can't.
> 
> Those of us who work regularly with software...this process is de ja vu.
> 
> ...


As has been suggested before in other threads, wouldn't it help D* tremendously if they had a form/template where those here who have major problems could fill out their specific conditions? (HDMI or component, multiswitch type, cable length...etc)


----------



## valleygreen22 (Nov 25, 2006)

jlancaster said:


> Any chance of a RC this week??


My HR20 will , for no apparent reason, lock out all programs but the HD channels. The remote works and brings up HD channels which work just fine. Any attempt to go to an SD signal/channel results in the Black Screen. The only solution is a cold reboot. Will this be resolved with the next software release?


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## mocciat (Oct 17, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Answer - you can't.
> 
> Those of us who work regularly with software...this process is de ja vu.
> 
> ...


Well I think that if there were that many problems we get back to whether or not the unit should have been released to the masses?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

clay_w said:


> As has been suggested before in other threads, wouldn't it help D* tremendously if they had a form/template where those here who have major problems could fill out their specific conditions? (HDMI or component, multiswitch type, cable length...etc)


Including as much of that information as possible in you signature (size=1 works great) means that it is always available. The common stuff really shouldn't be too extensive and as long as you detail any incident I would think that would cover all of the bases. Check out my sig for an example. Hopefully that includes enough information - if not, I'll modify it as needed.


----------



## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

brott said:


> It appears that DirecTV is incrementally fixing problems, yes. However, the more problems that get whacked, the fewer problems that exist overall. Baby steps to make things better.
> 
> Honestly, though, while I do believe that the release candidate program has been a success, I also think that there has been an urge by some folks to denigrate the process. Constructive criticism is one thing, but anger and malice bring nothing positive to the table. Frustration is currently the middle name of the HR20 for some folks. I'd like to see that frustration channeled toward a productive outcome so that we can all benefit.


Very well spoken.


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## danko (Dec 5, 2006)

Radio Enginerd said:


> I think that point has been made several times before. I don't think Earl or anyone else will fight that the HR-20 was shipped "ready for prime time".
> 
> Look I have had TIVO ever since they first came out,and there far from perfect,they have had issues all along and released many updates:
> as far as being released early,we live in the computer world and all is released early to be fixed as we go,example "WINDOWS " all versions. this is a work in progress with many problems and updates this is the nature of computers and the world we live in.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

Since receiving 11b, I cannot set one of my OTA HD channels to record all episodes. I can set the MPEG4 local HD to daily episodes, the SD version to daily episodes but not the MPEG4. Could do this on 115 and 119. (no I'm not trying to set up too many things at once).

The real problem is that D* is a service provider. They provide a service for a fee. Just like the old telco, the cell companies, satellite radio and even cable companies.

But they ventured into design and manufacturing areas. They dictate the s/w features and user interface. 

Having been with them since the RCA, Sony, Hughes, LG and other manufacturer days, I wish they would let other companies design products to the specifications for receiving satellite signals. These companies such as Sony or Samsung are far better at engineering h/w and s/w and knowing how to solve a problem.

D* is still learning all about engineering and manufacturing quality control. They should be a service provider.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

danko said:


> Radio Enginerd said:
> 
> 
> > I think that point has been made several times before. I don't think Earl or anyone else will fight that the HR-20 was shipped "ready for prime time".
> ...


I can fully appreciate and live with updates and releases that introduce new features. I have no problem with the concept of release 1.0 that is basic, core functionality and release 2.0 that introduces new features, release 3.0 even more...

But while a DVR is a computer based device, so is my car, my vcr, my dvd burner, and my dishwasher. They are all closed systems, not open systems to be used *as* a computer. I do not load windows on my DVRs, I don't put Word/excel/powerpoint/access on my DVR. I want to record programs.

Sure, there are times when a car, dvd burner or dishwasher might have one software upgrade in the life of the computer based device; I expect that it will work very reliably over that life-time regardless of whether or not I actually get the upgrade. (In other words, very, very well designed and tested as an embedded programmed consumer electronic device.)

Do I have different expectations for a PC from a DVD burner? You betcha! But I have the same expectations of the PC hardware and its BIOS as I do for the dvd burner and DVR. Start, test itself, and run. In the case of the PC, after the test and run, my expectations are set against reasonable expectations of the OS, not the PC per se. PCs, in my experience have met that very high expectation until the hardware fails. OS's, well thats another matter. (Tho, Linux does a pretty good job.)


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

NR4P said:


> Since receiving 11b, I cannot set one of my OTA HD channels to record all episodes. I can set the MPEG4 local HD to daily episodes, the SD version to daily episodes but not the MPEG4. Could do this on 115 and 119. (no I'm not trying to set up too many things at once).
> 
> The real problem is that D* is a service provider. They provide a service for a fee. Just like the old telco, the cell companies, satellite radio and even cable companies.
> 
> ...


Can I make one small correction: PACE, AFAIK, designed the hardware, working closely with Directv on the specifications. Directv did the S/w design, build, QA, etc. Beyond that I agree with you in many ways.

Cheers,
Tom


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## mganga (Dec 4, 2006)

D* should simply send "new", thoroughly tested boxes to the numerous people on this forum having serious issues. seems like all they need to do is to reproduce the one earl has!


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Then you should know from being a manager.
> If you can't reproduce it... how can you test for it, to see if you have fixed it?
> 
> I have tried nearly every combination of things people have posted here that "brakes" there system... and it doesn't brake mine.
> ...


Earl. Great response! I'm seeing exactly what you see -- almost no problems. And with some of the problem reports I see, I can only shake my head and wonder why people would do the things they do and then blame -- D*, of course. Neither you nor I will get any points from those who refuse to understand, but you still can be counted on to "tell it like it is".


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## toy4two (Aug 18, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> hey Earl and team,
> 
> Rather than read through about 15 pages of "issues' for this firmware release, can you summerize the known issues that are left with this? Since I forced the download for this on Friday night, my system seems very stable. I'm sure some of my biggest pet peeves haven't been addressed (such as the padding issues), but it SEEMS to be recording and playing back as it should and there seems to be no problems with watching live TV. The only thing I still can't get working is the networking, which I don't care too much about. WMP doesn't seem to see the HR20, even though my router has given it an IP and the router sees the internet.


ONLY problem I still have is audio drop outs on MPEG4 locals. I only notice it on commercials, and only local commercials. Especially FOX...splicer?


----------



## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

clay_w said:


> As has been suggested before in other threads, wouldn't it help D* tremendously if they had a form/template where those here who have major problems could fill out their specific conditions? (HDMI or component, multiswitch type, cable length...etc)


From what I've seen in these posts, only about half or less of those postings could actually answer all those questions. No offense intended, but while there are clearly a number of experienced techies here, there are also a number of people who basically only know how to turn the system on. They aren't bad, they just have not previously had any reason to know.


----------



## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

brott said:


> Including as much of that information as possible in you signature (size=1 works great) means that it is always available. The common stuff really shouldn't be too extensive and as long as you detail any incident I would think that would cover all of the bases. Check out my sig for an example. Hopefully that includes enough information - if not, I'll modify it as needed.


Hey, THANKS Doug! Hadn't thought about the SIZE=1 . Don't we all wish we could always think of everything? And I bet that goes double for D* managers, PR and programmers :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Donnie Byrd said:


> Very well spoken.


Thanks Donnie, Now can you let us win on Feb 3?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

richlife said:


> ... And with some of the problem reports I see, I can only shake my head and wonder why people would do the things they do and then blame -- D*, of course. Neither you nor I will get any points from those who refuse to understand, but you still can be counted on to "tell it like it is".





richlife said:


> From what I've seen in these posts, only about half or less of those postings could actually answer all those questions. No offense intended, but while there are clearly a number of experienced techies here, there are also a number of people who basically only know how to turn the system on. They aren't bad, they just have not previously had any reason to know.


Richlife,

While the points in these two postings, closely together, might be to insult only some people here: "people who basically only know how to turn the system on", your generalization feels like an insult to a somewhat broader group--especially given the high degree of technical knowledge generally found here.

Bad form, not of your normal posting style.
Tom


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

tibber said:


> Richlife,
> 
> While the points in these two postings, closely together, might be to insult only some people here: "people who basically only know how to turn the system on", your generalization feels like an insult to a somewhat broader group--especially given the high degree of technical knowledge generally found here.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Tom. I held my tongue (keyboard) and did not respond...but I felt that the tone was insulting to those of us who are experienced, know what we are doing, and are having issues.

I also thought it was out of character for Richlife, so some mental slack has been cut.


----------



## sirmann (Jan 24, 2007)

mganga said:


> D* should simply send "new", thoroughly tested boxes to the numerous people on this forum having serious issues. seems like all they need to do is to reproduce the one earl has!


Only problem with this is that when your receiver is hosed, they send you out a refurbished unit. I just got my new HR20 about a week ago and it went dead the other day...wouldn't boot up at all. They sent me a "new" HR20 and it ended up being a reconditioned unit with tons of knics and scratches on the front bezel. I called D* and they are sending another reconditioned unit to me, so I ended up paying $299 for a reconditioned unit in the end. After asking several times, they would NOT send me a new HR20 unit, but they did give me $10 off my D* bill for 12 months and showtime channels for 6 months free, so I can't complain too much, but it still is not right that they send out refurbushed units when your original unit is less than a couple weeks old.


----------



## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Answer - you can't.
> 
> Those of us who work regularly with software...this process is de ja vu.
> 
> ...


Earl & HDTVFan,

Excellent posts on the complexity of software testing. As the enterprise development manager for a Fortune 500 company, I too have seen programs that go through the most rigorous testing imaginable yet you still see issues when things get into the users hands. Unfortunately, software and hardware development is not the exact science that some feel it is or should be.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

toy4two said:


> ONLY problem I still have is audio drop outs on MPEG4 locals. I only notice it on commercials, and only local commercials. Especially FOX...splicer?


And the problem is...?


----------



## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

cookpr said:


> This is a rant- so I have warned you
> 
> Man, I just have a hard time comprehending what is going on over there. In the end (and no offense to Earl or anyone involved with D*) it simply seems they did not, and still do not have the expertise to create their own DVR's - I dont know how the consumer can conclude otherwise.
> 
> ...


A very well thought out argument. I do think that the HR20 is made by a third party , and I belive the company is owned in part by Murdoch and produced the Sky boxes used in Europe, but I could be wrong. Anyway, to me, the biggest point is that most of us here ARE technical and roll with the punches so to speak, but you are right, for the average user experiencing these problems, it has to be even MORE frustrating. The one thing about the TiVos is you had confidence that it did what you wanted it to do. Occassionally it missed a recording, usually because of bad guide data, and it locked up a time or two, but you always had the confidence it was a one off, and it would work. Right now, I have little confidence in the HR20. I come home from work every night and check my ToDo list, and my watch list to make sure it recorded what it was supposed to or is scheduled to record what I want. And every time I watch something and I have to use trick play, there's that fear in the back of my mind that the machine will freeze, reboot or whatever. It's a good thing I've kept my old HR10 around to be a backup. I've gotten very diligent in recording things on BOTH. But it's not HD, so it's just not as fun to watch.


----------



## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Then you should know from being a manager.
> If you can't reproduce it... how can you test for it, to see if you have fixed it?
> 
> I have tried nearly every combination of things people have posted here that "brakes" there system... and it doesn't brake mine.
> ...


when calling a CSR, does D* ask for your setup? I'm convinced, that the root of the problem must be with certain setups. Why for instabce does this last rev seem stable on my setup, yet other people are STILL reporting the same bugs from previous revs. Or, why is THIS rev breaking previously stable HR20s? If the machine is totally buggy, then the same issues should happen on EVERYONE's system. Heroes on MPEG4 locals in NYC should behave the same on all functioning HR20s. Something is causing this to happen on some systems, not others.


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## Woody_1 (Jan 11, 2007)

brittonx said:


> Earl & HDTVFan,
> 
> Excellent posts on the complexity of software testing. As the enterprise development manager for a Fortune 500 company, I too have seen programs that go through the most rigorous testing imaginable yet you still see issues when things get into the users hands. Unfortunately, software and hardware development is not the exact science that some feel it is or should be.


BINGO!!!

My exact experiance and feelings, outside of D*.
AND
Directv is continuing to make updates.

You have to keep moving forward, even with some pain involved in the process.


----------



## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have tried nearly every combination of things people have posted here that "brakes" there system... and it doesn't brake mine.
> I record a lot of the same shows as everyone else... 24, Heros, ect.... still no problems.
> I use the system with 30s, skip to tick, ota, jump around, search, ect... still no problems.


Since my setup is so generic, and I have had the HR20 since early/mid september I simply cannot believe you have not had problems requiring a RBR. And frankly I find it irritating to see you say that 



Earl Bonovich said:


> DirecTV doesn't have that luxury right now, to have a "beta test" of the next version last a year... at least not at this point...


I thought at one point you said they were so rushed to get a good version that they really did not have time for inhouse testing. Did I read that wrong? It was probably around xmas or so.



Earl Bonovich said:


> You have users out there... not using authorized multiswitches... using incorrect cable types... TV's that are not compliant on HDMI... poor dish assemblies... different guide data for locals... ect... so no matter HOW big you setup a test enviornment, you are simply not going to be testing everything.


OK. But these things do not sound like something that would make people loose the ability to do trick play and other basic things the HR20 should be doing.



Earl Bonovich said:


> What are the "big guns" going to do... this is a custom built system... a system built by the people using it. I could go in there as a software developer, and who is to say I could make a difference... or the next guy... or your "big gun" on your staff.


Well to be honest after a few more "updates" and things are still not cool, I would be willing to give it a shot. Your pal tstarn is not completely wrong IMHO.



Earl Bonovich said:


> I ask you... IF you did ALL your testing of your product... everything passed.. Months of Beta testing... and yet when you rolled it... there was a problem... a significant problem.... What do you do? You try to fix it, right? Then you try to figure out WHY it happened, and why it was missed in testing...


I am curious if any of the programmers have previously worked at TIVO or Ultimate TV ? Cause in some ways if I were to be completely honest, I would have to say it looks like OJT. (On the Job Training). :nono2:



Earl Bonovich said:


> And that is the exact same thing they are doing here... each "version" they have adjusted their testing models... If you have noticed, that are "version" numbers are skipped... why? because during their testing they have found items.
> 
> Stabing in the dark...would be releasing the next compiled version and hoping it worked.


And on that... Cheers


----------



## richadam (Oct 28, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Answer - you can't.
> 
> Those of us who work regularly with software...this process is de ja vu.
> 
> ...


This testing problem for D* is huge. However it is reasonably congruent to the problems that PC game publishers face. There are a huge number of permutations of hardware configuration/OS/OS environment/ etc. The configuration labs for QA testing for these products. So this problem has been addressed and solves with varying degrees of success. Most products in this realm surpass the performance and evolution of the HR20 by one or more order of magnitude. Patches are released and fixes for the most part work. Not the case history here.

My big question in all of this is how does the software work without issue for a large mass of installations while simultaneously exhibit fundamentally flawed behavior on other installations? Hardware discrepancy is my primary conclusion.

What would a BIG GUN suggest? Well, this gun would get my hands on one of the pieces of hardware that is "fargging up" and reproduce the failures so that I can understand them, fix them, and confirm the fix for a known bad case. I would be logging diagnostic data into memory right, left and center, and transmitting that data via telephone back to my developers from units that have reported failures. I would write code that detected failure conditions and transmit diagnostic data back to my staff when a failure is detected. I would be performing architectural design reviews to confirm that the design of the real-time sub-system doesn't have holes (It seems to from my very far away vantage point).

From the anecdotal evidence about the test and release process provided by Earl and others this is not happening. The fact that the software passed their QA process to begin with is a flaming indictment of the QA process in itself. I patently reject the assertion that the software went through months of internal testing and got approved and that the company was then blind-sided by fundamental functionality problems in the field. The facts are diametrically opposed to this description of events.

Again, if I was betting, my money might be on the HD and the data on the drive that the code is not dealing with in a fault tolerant manner. Just a wild-ass guess on my part.

This is a world class testing problem. But there are models out there to learn from.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

richadam said:


> This testing problem for D* is huge.
> 
> My big question in all of this is how does the software work without issue for a large mass of installations while simultaneously exhibit fundamentally flawed behavior on other installations? Hardware discrepancy is my primary conclusion.
> 
> This is a world class testing problem. But there are models out there to learn from.


You are right, the testing process is big.

Earl and others have virtually eliminated hardware as the potential culprit, indicating all the HR20 boxes out there are the same. YOu can pretty safely assume that hardware has also been examined by D*TV as well.

We're all in favor of resolving "issues", and it appears D*TV is making every effort to get the resolved. I am certain they are fully aware of the consequences of failure on this, as well as the implications of time passing without a higher degree of complete satisfaction. They have much more at stake than any one of us individually at this point.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gcisko said:


> Since my setup is so generic, and I have had the HR20 since early/mid september I simply cannot believe you have not had problems requiring a RBR. And frankly I find it irritating to see you say that


I am equally as irritated, as I would like to be able to recreate the problems... seriously... I wish it was consistent accross the board.



gcisko said:


> I thought at one point you said they were so rushed to get a good version that they really did not have time for inhouse testing. Did I read that wrong? It was probably around xmas or so.


They have always done in-house testing... they actually have three levels of inhouse testing, and it has been done for every version. They have accelerated it sometimes, but it is always done.


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## HossMcD (Jan 25, 2006)

I was with Dish Network from before their first DVR. I jumped on their DVR bandwagon almost immediately. Over the next years until I moved to D* a couple of years ago, I experienced many of the problems I’m reading about here with their software and their hardware. 

They replaced my DVR hardware 8 times.  I finally gave up. I came to D* and Tivo. I was SOOOO happy. Tivo was very stable.  Now D* has decided to get their software from someone other than Tivo and we’re all D* Beta testers whether we like or not. 

I’m not going back to Dish. Been there done that. Cable is a joke. (I think D* may know about our lack of options.) So I guess I’ll just have to wait it out.

I am curious. Was anyone around when Tivo first started up. How long did it take for their software to become as stable as it is today?


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## richadam (Oct 28, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You are right, the testing process is big.
> 
> Earl and others have virtually eliminated hardware as the potential culprit, indicating all the HR20 boxes out there are the same. YOu can pretty safely assume that hardware has also been examined by D*TV as well.
> 
> We're all in favor of resolving "issues", and it appears D*TV is making every effort to get the resolved. I am certain they are fully aware of the consequences of failure on this, as well as the implications of time passing without a higher degree of complete satisfaction. They have much more at stake than any one of us individually at this point.


With all due respect to Earl, and I have a lot of respect for Earl, he is not qualified to certify all hardware boxes as the same. The boxes out there are certainly not the same. While the specs are the same, it is certain that they all have different parts. It is possible that the HD's are not all from the same manufacturer. Electronic components operate within a range. If the hardware is designed such that a component that operates at the edge of its acceptable range it can operate unreliably, and problems can occur. I am not saying that this is what is going on here.

But one thing is certain. The software IS the same. It is the hardware and the configuration that are the variables here. I suspect the configuration less because the failures reported seem to be across the configuration spectrum. Therefore... But it is puzzling to be sure.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

richadam said:


> With all due respect to Earl, and I have a lot of respect for Earl, he is not qualified to certify all hardware boxes as the same.


Maybe / maybe not...but I bet his contacts are.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

richadam said:


> But one thing is certain. The software IS the same. It is the hardware and the configuration that are the variables here. I suspect the configuration less because the failures reported seem to be across the configuration spectrum. Therefore... But it is puzzling to be sure.


Well, I'd expect that the hardware is likely the "same" within the parameters of different batches of components and, of course, the bounds of process control. Hardware QC could be part of the problem, of course, but shouldn't be to a greater extent than was seen in, say, the HR10, HDVR2, etc...

Besides hardware (incl. configuration of inputs/outputs) and software, there are also variations in usage patterns that create differing "conditions" for the software to manage and juggle at any one time. Even with identical hardware and obviously software, these conditions are creating bugs that are showing up in what appears to be a random pattern, but almost certainly isn't. The key is for the developers to be able to determine what set of conditions are creating the bugs, and how to ensure that the software handles them. Clearly they haven't done that to the extent they need to, the software is failing more than it should--and not gracefully--and it's pretty frustrating for those of us experiencing the failures.

Please do not interpret the above to be excusing the current performance of the DVRs.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

richadam said:


> But one thing is certain. The software IS the same. It is the hardware and the configuration that are the variables here. I suspect the configuration less because the failures reported seem to be across the configuration spectrum. Therefore... But it is puzzling to be sure.


The software release version may be the same, but how it behaves with not only the hardware itself but each specific location's HDMI, Component, and audio cables, HD displays, switches, multiswitches, etc. is a huge potential variable factor, if not more, than the HR20 hardware itself. The HR20 box itself is *far more *of a constant.


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## richadam (Oct 28, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The software release version may be the same, but how it behaves with not only the hardware itself but each specific location's HDMI, Component, and audio cables, HD displays, switches, multiswitches, etc. is a huge potential variable factor, if not more, than the HR20 hardware itself. The HR20 box itself is *far more *of a constant.


How, may I ask, does a passive display device or the cable configuration between the HR20 and the display device, cause the HR20 to decide that a recorded program must be deleted either now or later? Anything on the output side of the box is irrelevant to lost recordings.

The failed recording problem is more likely generated between the sattelite and the box. But it certainly has nothing to do with anything the display device or its configuration.

Actually, that is very possibly the issue. What about the hardware BETWEEN the dish and the HR20 as well. I think I have line splitters, etc.. Has there been any study to correlate signal loss/packet loss to these kinds of problems. I will bet that each home installation is VERY disparate in character. The biggest variable in all of this is the quality of the incoming signal. Hmmmmmm.

On the other hand, my Tivo deals with the incoming signal just fine. The question is how fault tolerant is the HR20 software to data loss? Doesn't the Tivo operate on a different kind of stream than the HR20?

D* must have some kind of poor signal quality simulation in its test suite.

I can't believe I am spending so much time trying to divine the root of the problems here. What a nerd.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

One other important fact to consider. DirecTV has been making ongoing changes to the data stream. Guide data has been modified - tweaked this way and that way in order to add features and/or data while trying to maintain compatability with all of the various products that are currently in service. Other data in the data stream, which relate to how your equipment operates. I think these types of changes - nothing on the HR20 itself, or even specifically related to it - have also produced some surprises. Well, obviously they have considering the Tivo problem of a few weeks ago.

As to software testing - heck it is in fact possible to quantify all of the variables and create a failure modes and effects analysis that reflects them. It is possible to create a software verification process in parallel to the software development process, and use one to test the other. But doing that costs a lot of money, and you have to weigh the development cost against the risk cost of having some level of problems that are not detected in testing. There are situations where doing that level of testing is absolutely necessary, for example in aircraft electronics. You really don't want to find the isolated problems in flight now, do you? But I'll bet a thousand lines of super verified code in an aircraft or military product costs an order of magnitude (or more) more than a thousand lines of code that has undergone some "reasonable" level of testing in a consumer product. Would you pay $10,000 for a perfect HR20? I'll accept a few issues and be happy I got it for $299 or less.

Carl


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

richadam said:


> D* must have some kind of poor signal quality simulation in its test suite.
> 
> I can't believe I am spending so much time trying to divine the root of the problems here. What a nerd.


You're talking about something totally different. What you've described may or may not be applicable regarding one issue, but there are other issues posted here - lockups (yes, HDMI is a strong suspect), specific displays - again, lockups and display drops, audio issues - cables, receivers, connections, switches....and so on.

As Carl6 correctly pointed out, these digital devices are working with data streams and block transmissions for both MPEG2 and MPEG2 broadcast content.

Since the HR20 boxes themselves are fundamentally alike, how these digital data streams are processed before and after the box itself are the most suspect. They also happen to be the predominent variables between different users, which would logically explain why some folks have no problems and other do, using the exact same HR20 and same firmware version.

When addressing *one* specific issue alone, there may be more than one potential culprit involved. Making blanket statements that its the software or hardware mean little, and do nothing to resolve things. Each issue needs to be and is being tackled on its own validity and context.


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## jet75080 (Jan 7, 2007)

I guess it is no news if I say that my H20 is working like it should with 11b. I had one heck of a time getting it to take 02468... and with enough RBR's 11b reset everything. I tested the unit, OTA showed 0 signal yet the channels were there. After switching to each one, then they all showed "record" along with the SAT tuner's. in the INFO area. I have 30 OTA channels here in the Dallas area. My issue is now with my H10. It always worked fine, but now it records 45 min of an 1 hour program.. Guess the problems are moving to my older unit...
OH configuration for D*
2 SAT feeds from 5 LNB dish
1 OTA with a 90db antenna
Componet feed to my 1080i Toshiba
Composite feed to my DVR
Fiber Optic to my surrond sound system.
Using RC24 in RF mode
Output is set to 1080i but native is off.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> Thanks, Tom. I held my tongue (keyboard) and did not respond...but I felt that the tone was insulting to those of us who are experienced, know what we are doing, and are having issues.
> 
> I also thought it was out of character for Richlife, so some mental slack has been cut.


OUCH!  Thanks for the feedback (and the mental slack). Even after re-reading the posts, I'm not seeing the insult. So I want to apologize to everyone.

There are different levels of skill (even within this forum) and I really didn't mean to attack any of them (I think that with all of my background, it's very clear that many here have more knowledge, skill and experience than I). I obviously chose my words badly, but my mental intent was not to insult.

As far as "shaking my head", that's true but is simply a viewpoint. What can I say? We all might have a point of view that makes some practice seem unreasonable -- and I've probably practiced some of them. Anyway, I'm sorry if it seems disparaging.

Frustration can bring out the worst -- perhaps that can explain many things (including my posts). My intent (or hope) is simply to get everyone with problems (or trying to help with problems) to think again (don't get boxed in by the frustration).


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

richlife said:


> OUCH!  Thanks for the feedback (and the mental slack). Even after re-reading the posts, I'm not seeing the insult. So I want to apologize to everyone.
> 
> There are different levels of skill (even within this forum) and I really didn't mean to attack any of them (I think that with all of my background, it's very clear that many here have more knowledge, skill and experience than I). I obviously chose my words badly, but my mental intent was not to insult.
> 
> ...


We're good. I understand frustration, and know that it is easy for one's tone to be misinterpreted on forums like this.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

richlife,

This is the poster we've come to know and love! Apology gladly accepted with 

Once again, you've shown your true colors as a gentleman and a scholar. Excellent form (to paraphrase my quotation from "Hook".)

Cheers,
Tom


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## alv (Aug 13, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am equally as irritated, as I would like to be able to recreate the problems... seriously... I wish it was consistent accross the board.


Earl have you asked them to ship you a new box or two. I assume they would. That could check the hardware.

When I was helping dish look for popping sounds in the dishplayer, I had the sounds, they shipped me a box, that was clean. Eventually they found a software solution to overcome the hardware issue.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

alv said:


> Earl have you asked them to ship you a new box or two. I assume they would. That could check the hardware.
> 
> When I was helping dish look for popping sounds in the dishplayer, I had the sounds, they shipped me a box, that was clean. Eventually they found a software solution to overcome the hardware issue.


No, I haven't asked them to ship me any type of diagnostic equipment.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, I haven't asked them to ship me any type of diagnostic equipment.


Maybe we should trade HR20's :eek2:


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

richlife said:


> OUCH!  Thanks for the feedback (and the mental slack). Even after re-reading the posts, I'm not seeing the insult. So I want to apologize to everyone.


Well let me help  How about the post where you say:

"Earl. Great response! I'm seeing exactly what you see -- almost no problems. And with some of the problem reports I see, I can only shake my head and wonder why people would do the things they do and then blame -- D*, of course. Neither you nor I will get any points from those who refuse to understand, but you still can be counted on to "tell it like it is"."

I am sure I do not have to go into detail about why I think you just insulted me for reporting problems. Do I??? And I had a few last night I will be reporting shortly. And maybe I want to shake my head when I see someone respond like you did above. I had audio dropouts last night with American Idol. Doesn't matter if I use HDMI or not. They are still there. What is it that I could have possibly done wrong? Never had this problem with my Ultimate TV box. But noticed it immediately along with the rest of my family when I started using the HR20 in mid september.

Anyway you did apologize (though you did not know what for) so cheers.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

It would be nice if someone with a trouble-free box could swap with someone who has a lot of problems. Might give some really good info.

I don't have any special insight, but these different boxes face a lot of different environments: OTA or not, MPEG4 or not, networked or not, old or new dish install, lots of SLs or not, number of searches, amount of free hard drive space, temperature, power line fluctuations, left on or standby, HDMI or component, RF or IF control, and the list goes on.

Would box A react the same as box B in the same environment? Or would the troubles migrate with the receiver? Who knows?


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## TampaGator (Nov 17, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I would be happy with 0119 back, as it didn't miss any recording [for me], but I know YMMV.


Me too, as soon as 11b replaced 119, the complaints from my wife and kids went up. If I can get them to be more specific than "I hate this thing...can we have the old one back?", I'll share it.


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## cbaker (Dec 20, 2006)

Sorry, but I need to rant a bit after reading these responses. :eek2: Please don't take this the wrong way, it is just my humble opinion.

I have been a DirecTV customer almost since day one. I currently have 6 DirecTV DVRs (almost since the day they came out I have had one). I have their top package, NFL, superfan, etc. Needless to say I am an "A List" customer (if that really counts for anything). I spend (and have spent) a lot of money with DirecTV and have been on their bleeding edge with most of their new technologies (Superfan, DVRs, MPEG-2 HD, numerous different set top boxes, etc). While I respect and appreciate the work that many have done on this board (Earl, etc), I don't agree with the tempered response.

I think it is evident that this HR20 hardware / software release is just the latest in the DirecTV issues in trying to develop there own DVR. It is also clear that it is even more of an issue because at this point their are no other serious DVR / HD DVR options for DirecTV users (new D*Tivo versions gone now). THEY HAVE NOT HAD ANYWHERE NEAR THE ISSUES WITH ANY OTHER NEW TECHNOLOGY / HW I HAVE HAD WITH DIRECTV.

I don't agree that DirecTV is doing what it could to debug these issues and that "non-repeatable" bugs makes it hard to debug. As a technology consultant, this is what I do for a living - fix the non-repeatable issues clients have. I am a problem solver.

While I agree the large variables in input quality or output devices could be a factor in many of these issues (things D*TV does not control), DirecTV can do things to debug this. For example, they could enhance their loggging on their box to help debug this. Log things like picture quality, picture type, logs for how to-do lists are generated, etc. They could make these debugging logs avail to end users so techies could try to help understand what is causing issues. There are ways to debug "no-repeatable" issues. They are repeatable, the issue that caused them just needs to be identified.

They could also allow end users to opt-in / opt-out of beta software releases. This "national release" and "special windows" is a bit "un-professional" IMHO. If I want to try an update, I have to stay up to reload my box at a particular time? A bit silly when you control the software on the box. Why not do something like major companies like Cisco does with their software and offer end-users the ability to get "stable" releases (say the previous national release or a limited release that has been out there a while), "limited" release for those looking to fix issues they might have (say the current national week every few weeks), and another category for those willing to beta test every new interim release (special windows). This would be set by the end-user in some setup screen and allow a CSR to control the download put on the users box a bit. It would also allow DirecTV to not force a new buggy release so quickly but still allow some to test it. It would also allow user who think they are stable to not be forced to download

They could combine this option with a feedback system for those who have their units connected to the internet. Allow users to rate the release on their unit via a survey and then upload to DirecTV for feedback. And how about a report a bug / issue via the setup menu somewhere; It would be a survey type questionaire to report the bug and allow the end-user to upload their debug logs. 

Also, DirecTV SHOULD focus on making a more stable DVR and adding the missing features of our SD DVR instead of adding new items like "gamers lounge" (gambling), network access to pictures etc? I think most people would live with buggy new features (network access to pictures/music, OTA recording, eSATA, etc) if such core features were not missing or not reliable (recorded show just "blank", show recording skipped for no reason, only 50 prioritizer items, no dual buffer, etc). IT IS EASY TO FORGIVE NETWORK ACCESS TO PHOTOS PROBLEMS WHEN RECORDINGS WORK AND FEATURES WE HAD IN THE SD DVR ARE PRESENT.

I think the DBSTalk forums could do more too. There are plenty of ways for us to complain about issues here, but very little tracking of how the new releases fix the issues. Instead of subjective surveys about how people like a particular software release, some consideration could be given to more objective surveys force users to rate release by issues with the hope of determining frequency and severity. For example a survey that lists the top 10 or 15 issues and how often they encounter them in each software version. Have the user verify the version they are running, ask them for each Issue - No Comment/Don't Know, No Problems, Minor Problems, Many Issues. Only let users answer once a week and have they check a box to verify the version they are running and/or seek to determine their understanding of the forum and their box in order to weight their answer as creditable.

I have had very few issues comparitively. I use my HR20 at least 6 hrs a day every day when I work from home (50-100 hrs/week). I have seen a relative improvement over the releases, but I am still unhappy overall. I have paid THOUSANDS to DirecTV in hardware alone over the years, let alone all the programming fees. I don't feel the HR20 product was anywhere near a Release Candidate, let alone Production when it was released. I paid hundreds for a box that has been overall, extremely difficult and overall a huge step backwards from my SD DVRs.

Today, it is getting close to a production box, IMHO. I like the new features and am excited to see them. But because even with the latest release I have missed recordings (blank), I don't trust the HR20. I am lucky in that I haven't missed something major like 24, Heroes, or don't even think it Da Bears, but I have to run a seperate SD D*Tivo unit (and pay another $5/month) to make sure I don't. Even more money.

The bottom line is D*TV was forced to release HW on the market due to business decisions it made. In the beginning, their decision affected us dedicated bleeding edge customers. But more and more with the large growth in HD lately and no option on the HD/HD DVR (and now the SD DVR end), regular customers are experiencing our frustration. And what do we get for suffering through their business decisions and poorly executed growth (remember those commercials for all the HD content we would get in 2004), for all of this we get a rate increase!

 DirecTV needs to "man up," acknowledge their mistakes, re-focus, and:
1) Fix the core recorder and make the unit stable (IMHO it is only 85%) (If necessary, add features like debug logging, software opt-in, etc to help debug.)
2) Add/Fix the missing core features found in all the previous SD units (more than 50 prioritizer items, dual live buffers, recording channels received only, etc) before adding new features (network, eSATA, OTA, etc).
3) Acknowledge those who have had to live through the HR20 and offer them some worthy financial reward not a fee increase. Why not automatically give A-List customers who had an HR20 in 2006 the new HD fee free for a year. 

Just my opinion.... like they care....  

Go Bears


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

cbaker said:


> Sorry, but I need to rant a bit after reading these responses. :eek2: Please don't take this the wrong way, it is just my humble opinion.
> 
> I have been a DirecTV customer almost since day one. I currently have 6 DirecTV DVRs (almost since the day they came out I have had one). I have their top package, NFL, superfan, etc. Needless to say I am an "A List" customer (if that really counts for anything). I spend (and have spent) a lot of money with DirecTV and have been on their bleeding edge with most of their new technologies (Superfan, DVRs, MPEG-2 HD, numerous different set top boxes, etc). While I respect and appreciate the work that many have done on this board (Earl, etc), I don't agree with the tempered response.
> 
> ...


Well done, in my view. Then again, I believed this back in October (without the tech background, but just as a consumer).


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## jpeckinp (Nov 6, 2006)

I currently have the 10-250 and really want to get the 20-700 before the "100 NEW HD channels" are released but there is no way in hell I am going to do that with what I read on this site on a daily basis. D* has really screwed the pooch.
I am happy with my 10-250 right now, unfortunately when it comes time to upgrade I will still have to bribe the installer to put up my new dish because I live in an apartment I have my dish mounted in a 5 gallon bucket on a 4x4 with 80lbs of cement holding it in place. I live on the 12th floor facing the SW and have never had one problem with the wind moving my dish.
I guess I could buy the dish myself install it and then call and say I have an alignment problem and have D* come tune it for me, but who knows how long it will take them to show up to do that.


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## Agrajag (Jun 22, 2004)

I keep holding off because my R15 is a piece of junk and can't imagine taking that platform up a major step to HD. 

The problem is that we really don't have a lot of options right now. Frankly, my HR10 doesn't impress me. It has its own set of issues but for now it's a devil I know. 

I can go to Comcast but in my area that means I pay 50% more than I pay now and I get a really average DVR and the most basic interfaces I've ever seen. It's like they were made for children.

If Verizon ever gets FiOS TV everywhere, we might have an option there but their STB isn't anything great and has no OTA support. I can't recall but it might even be single-tuner. 

Bottom line is that DVRs all over the spectrum suck rocks right now. Someone should have bought TiVo some time back and FORCED them to just improve the core product and have them forget all the crap that caused them to lose focus (like HMO... I know, techies love it but NO ONE ELSE GIVES A DAMN).

I just want a freaking box that works and has more features than what I had in a 1980 VCR. I can't believe that's so hard to provide right now.


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## cbaker (Dec 20, 2006)

Agrajag said:


> I keep holding off because my R15 is a piece of junk and can't imagine taking that platform up a major step to HD.
> 
> ....
> 
> I just want a freaking box that works and has more features than what I had in a 1980 VCR. I can't believe that's so hard to provide right now.


A month ago, I was with you ... actually, I would have used a piece of S%$#! I think they do still have some work to do on some minor recording issues (select few blank recordings, missed recording), but overall, the stablity is coming around and the core items are around 80% or so. I think many here think the HR20 is making a turn away from the dark side. The past few releases have really added stablity. I agree.

But I do agree with you on the features. The SD D*Tivo units allowed you to record 70+ (never tried more) season passes. This unit only 50. SD Units had dual live buffers. This one only 1.

So even though stablity is coming around (hopefully even more with the latest beta release), I hope they can at least add functions and features that were in the SD D*Tivo units I have had for 5+ years.


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