# A Dramatically Faster User Interface



## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Most of us have cell phones or voice mail. We use shortcuts like 1 - 1 - 2. They are so easy to remember we don't even think about them.

Why can't the HR20 do that?

To toggle Closed Captioning On/Off is 23 steps, 15 if you know the secrets.

If the HR20 menus were as easy to use as a cell phone, the Quick Menu in Live TV might be:










Instead of 23 steps, toggling Closed Captioning would be 2 steps :

*Menu - 8*

The Parental Controls Menu might be:









So to get to Parental Controls would be 3 steps instead of 11:

*Menu - 9 - 3 *

So what's the downside?

Our old menus still work just the same so you can still take 23 steps instead of 2 if you want.

You won't be able to change channels in the middle of digging through menus. But now it won't take 30 seconds to do a 2 second task. There won't be time.

EDIT: To keep it simple, you would tie the numbers to the item number in the list not the specific option just like in your Cell Phone. So in My Playlist's Quick Menu, My Playlist would obviouly not be in the first slot. Something else would have the number "1" hot key.

EDIT: Please don't make it go beyond 10 choices but if you do, you can use the color buttons.

Call a numbered link a "_HotPass_" or "_FastTrack_" and trademark it. Now TiVo is chasing you.

Add the numbers in your menu text. Each number just calls a module you have already written.

You will speed up tech support calls. It's hard to walk someone through 23 steps. Two clicks is cake.

Turning off Animations made the HR20 faster. This is the second step. You go from one of the hardest user interfaces to one of the best in about 3 days.

It's not just Closed Captioning that will be better. It is everything.

So what are your ideas? How can we tweak it?

- Craig

_Thank you to Doug Brott, Lamontcranston, Litzdog911, Carl6, Mtnagel, Tom Robertson, Coffey77, and others for your help in developing this idea. EDIT: Also BubblePuppy had suggested this previously in this post. I also got a private note that menu numbering should be called "DirectAccess"._


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

I prefer the numbering system. I suggested that here:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82638&page=3&highlight=closed+caption Post #65

But the one button CC toggle would be the best for this feature.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

I like the idea a lot. The one that I would use it for the most would be to turn off parental controls. I do that a lot. If it speeds that up, I'm all for it.

Good idea :up:


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

Why couldn't D*'s development people think of this?  
Why didn't I think of this?  
It's right there in front of us everyday?
Thanks Milominder...... I hope D* takes this sugestion and runs with it!


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Yea, excellent idea Milo. You beat me to the graphic though as I have been floating ideas around in my head since you PM'd me earlier this week.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Sorry BubblePuppy. I had done a search on "menu numbering", "menu numbers", and "menu number" but missed your post. I thought it was about Closed Captioning Toggles and did not see the second idea.

My Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD Recorder has menu numbering like this and I really like it. I also like menu numbering to do voice mail and to use my cell phone.

To BubblePuppy and anyone else who has suggested direct access menu numbering: Thank you for a great idea...

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> Yea, excellent idea Milo. You beat me to the graphic though as I have been floating ideas around in my head since you PM'd me earlier this week.


Andy, I am sorry I had not listed you in the "Thank You" line. I appreciate your help in developing this. I corrected the OP.

- Craig


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Andy, I am sorry I had not listed you in the "Thank You" line. I appreciate your help in developing this. I corrected the OP.
> 
> - Craig


No need at all Craig, I really didn't do anything. Just basically agreed with you.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> No need at all Craig, I really didn't do anything. Just basically agreed with you.


And that makes you a very smart man!  It was your idea to work out the graphic menu examples. With the gif's it is clear how simple this would be.

- Craig


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

I agree...


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

An excellent idea, well executed. 

I'd like to chime in as well, that if a system like this were implemented, then people with learning remotes (e.g. Harmony) could learn multiple commands and assign them to a single button. Then pretty much anything you wanted could be a 1-button item.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Playing Devil's advocate...

What do you do if that menu needs to have more then 10 entries...

In your first screen display, you are missing the 
Quick Menu-> My Playlist
Quick Menu-> Audio


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## stroh (Oct 18, 2004)

This would also make things much easier for DTV also. The support techs could just tell you a series of key strokes to hit instead of "look for this menu, ok, now hit select, ok, now look for this, ok, hit select..."

Of course, that is assuming they tell you the correct sequence...


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

stroh said:


> This would also make things much easier for DTV also. The support techs could just tell you a series of key strokes to hit instead of "look for this menu, ok, now hit select, ok, now look for this, ok, hit select..."
> 
> *Of course, that is assuming they tell you the correct sequence...*


It would be as easy as 1-2-3...:lol:


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

This is a good idea.

Sub menues would work if there are too many "must haves". I suggest that this be done by the user-i.e. perhaps there are 25 toggles one might have and the user could decide what was in the general menu (perhaps 5 things) and then what would be in the sub menus.


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## kocuba (Dec 29, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Playing Devil's advocate...
> 
> What do you do if that menu needs to have more then 10 entries...
> 
> ...


If a menu has more than 10 items maybe it needs to be or should be broken down in to categories(ie sub menus or groupings).

IMHO FWIW


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Playing Devil's advocate...
> 
> *What do you do if that menu needs to have more then 10 entries...*
> 
> ...


Simple -
You include "-", "red", "green", "yellow","blue"
i.e Menu-dash = My Playlist
Menu-yellow = Audio


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## kocuba (Dec 29, 2006)

BTW I forgot to mention I do like the idea. Great Job Milo and all who conferred on this. Hopefully D* will run with it.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

> To toggle Closed Captioning On/Off is 23 steps, 15 if you know the secrets


_UN-FREAKIN-BELIEVEABLE! _:eek2:

How (or why) you D* subs up with that put, I don't know. :shrug:


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Playing Devil's advocate...
> 
> What do you do if that menu needs to have more then 10 entries...
> 
> ...


Reorganize the menus so that there is never more than 9 entries on one. This might add a layer or two here and there, but would still be substantially faster than today's methodology.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I don't know...
Guess it is just me.... I don't go into the menu system that often.
The occasional search now and then...

But for probably 65%.. My first stop is LIST (then the YELLOW button for the ToDo list, to get to the scheduler/history ect). Then the GUIDE is the next biggest... followed by the occasional serach.

Now that my display and audio settings are all setup, I rarely go into SETUP (other then to check software versions).

Pictures/Audio... 

Now with the "hold-info" I get to the configuration screen...

CID messages, I just toggle through my phone.. (I just want the pop-ups, not the history).

Guess I am not in there enough to have noticed (or to find it that "annoying") that it takes a bunch of button presses...


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> [...]So what are your ideas? How can we tweak it?


As mentioned by others, if a menu has more than 9 items, just break it into a submenu. If functions are groupled logically, no menu should need to be more than 9 items anyway. /steve


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Playing Devil's advocate...
> 
> What do you do if that menu needs to have more then 10 entries...
> 
> ...


you simply don't number "dynamic" menus so while you could get to my playlist/music&photos you would still just use up/down to navigate... 
just my 2 cents worth..


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## drjjr (Jan 31, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Guess it is just me.... I don't go into the menu system that often.
> The occasional search now and then...


It's not just you. The reason I even monkey with the menus now is just because it's "new" and I want to see what's changed. A year from now I (hopefully) won't be checking the temperature of the box or the version or software or whether it has an IP address. I've never turned CC on or off so I can't say the 23 steps have ever affected me. I spend most of my time in the playlist. I rarely watch live TV. I do searches at the beginning of the TV seasons or when a new program comes on (like Planet Earth). This is due in no small part to a 4-month old and 5-year old in the house.

Having said that, another good reason to use numbers, symbols, or whatever for shortcuts is localization. Now they can crank out the Spanish HR20 and keep some of the documentation and CS scripts the same.

I still think there's some work to be done before they start jacking with the UI. But a thread like this is a good indication that the box is getting more stable.


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't know...
> Guess it is just me.... I don't go into the menu system that often.
> The occasional search now and then...
> 
> ...


It won't take you but a couple of days to develop a deep sense of sympathy for those of us with hard of hearing partners if you turn on and off CC once a day!!!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ChrisMinCT said:


> It won't take you but a couple of days to develop a deep sense of sympathy for those of us with hard of hearing partners if you turn on and off CC once a day!!!


I completely understand that... but I know one of my neighboors who has a child that is hard of hearing...

They simply leave it on... they don't turn it on and off.

And I not against quick buttons... but to artificially limit the menu to 10 entries, and to specifically lock them into a position order... just so that they can be assigned a number...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

IMHO, menu shortcuts are never a bad thing. At a minimum, those who navigate the menu frequently have a method to to do so quickly. Those who navigate the menu infrequently can still use the tried and true up/down method - I probably fall into the "not too often" category of accessing the menu.

Earl, if there are more than 10 entries, then the menu should probably be sub-menu'd anyway or if it's dynamic and long then the up/down method would be needed. That shouldn't be a restriction to making it work for "normal" cases, though.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I think this is an interesting idea and it does deserve some consideration. We've seen slides of a new user interface for over a year now, and I hope that it's coming soon. I think the more flexibility they can build into this UI the better. 

Before anyone says, well this has to have mass appeal, it can't just be a mess of options, look at Windows. You don't get much more mass market than that. Sure there are a lot of problems with Windows but its handicapped access is excellent, and the UI experience is very customizable. I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near that far with the DirecTV UI but the point is, there's nothing wrong with something flexible enough to let users use it they way they want. 

While we're throwing ideas out, let's assume that Milo gets his wish, there would be a unique number code to every menu action. Imagine if you could then populate the quick menu (or a submenu of it) with your 6 favorite menu actions just by enumerating them. 

Earl doesn't use closed captioning, but let's pretend he uses the history screen a lot. He can have a submenu with 2-3 button access to that and he doesn't need to memorize the numerical sequence or the key commands. 

I think this is a great time to have this discussion, the developers have shown they are willing to listen to us, so let's get those ideas out there!


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## judson_west (Jun 15, 2006)

Maybe an alternative is to have a shortcut menu that is user definable. On my cell phone, I have this feature. When I want to add a shortcut, it prompts me as to where I want to go and what shortcut I want to assign it to. 

For example, let's say that you have have 10 shortcuts 0-9. You then go into the shortcut profile area, select a profile (0-9) it will then prompt you where you want this shortcut to take you. You tell it by pressing the normal menu navigation buttons to get you there. Once there, you press a save button and it's saved. To activate that particular shortcut, you press ##0-9 and viola!

Royalties can be paid into my paypal account.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Playing Devil's advocate...
> 
> What do you do if that menu needs to have more then 10 entries...





SuperTech1 said:


> Simple -
> You include "-", "red", "green", "yellow","blue"
> i.e Menu-dash = My Playlist
> Menu-yellow = Audio


If you go over 10 choices, my wife will be looking for the responsible parties. She already refuses to use the Setup menu with it's 10 options. She says, "It should not be this hard to watch TV!"

You could go to 14 options pretty easily using the colored buttons. I hope they are currently deactivated when a menu is up. Here is what that menu could look like:










Again, if D* goes beyond 10 menu options my wife will be looking for someone to blame and Tinley Park is a quick trip. I would have to tell her it was tibbers fault. :lol:

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Playing Devil's advocate...
> 
> In your first screen display, you are missing the
> Quick Menu-> My Playlist
> Quick Menu-> Audio


I believe those are in the Quick Menu when you are in My Playlist. I personally would love keeping as many of the same option in the Quick Menu as possible. I know my wife would like anything that would simplify the menus.

I redid it adding those two in. If we are going to change the Quick Menu, let's also put the options in the sorted in by how often they are used.

I updated the OP to reflect the expanded Quick Menu:

If the HR20 menus were as easy to use as a cell phone, the Quick Menu in Live TV might be:










Question: If you already have a button labeled LIST do you need My Playlist in the Menus as well? Is that adding unnecessary complexity?

- Craig


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I completely understand that... but I know one of my neighboors who has a child that is hard of hearing...
> 
> They simply leave it on... they don't turn it on and off.
> 
> And I not against quick buttons... but to artificially limit the menu to 10 entries, and to specifically lock them into a position order... just so that they can be assigned a number...


I think the benefit of menu shortcuts is far greater than the cost of having to learn a few more menu layers. From the Quick Menu, I can't find anything that has more than 10. The System Setup has 10, but ACCESS CARD is grayed out, and DONE is a useless button if you learn to use EXIT anyway. I'm not considering the dynamic data windows as viable for shortcuts - I wouldn't number the Playlist or the Computers list in Music & Photos, for example.

CC is one good example. Parental Controls is another. I can remember, MENU-7-2 to Lock Now. Way faster than the 10 remote control entries I have to do today.

And I can't stand having the CC on when I watch a movie or a favorite show. Way too distracting for me. It makes me crazy. And I'm tired of my 9 year old having to call me everytime he turns on the TV because he can't figure out how to turn off "Mommy's words." There's your invention idea of the day - CC that is invisible to users unless they are wearing special glasses (which don't otherwise change the picture for them!). I'D PAY BIG BUCKS FOR THAT!!


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...to specifically lock them into a position order... just so that they can be assigned a number...


You would tie the numbers to the item number in the list not the specific option just like in your Cell Phone. So in My Playlist's Quick Menu, My Playlist would obviously not be in the first slot. Something else would have the number "1" hot key.

I will note that in the OP.

We found out in the *Poll:* How would you like to be able to use Closed Captioning? that a 34% of us do not need to be able to toggle Closed Captioning On or Off.

But 66% of us do want to be able to use CC. I don't think they could have found a way to make it any harder than the 23 steps it is.

I am curious to see how many of use have younger children and use Parental Controls. Now instead of 11 keystroke just to enter the code, it could be 3.

So I am back to the original question. What is the downside to letting there be hotlinks to the menu items?

If you are one of the lucky 34% who do not need to turn features on/off, I am envious.

Please help the rest of us...

- Craig


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Question: If you already have a button labeled LIST do you need My Playlist in the Menus as well? Is that adding unnecessary complexity?


I thought the same thing... until we started to see posts on people saying it was a bug that it wasn't there after a restart...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> You would tie the numbers to the item number in the list not the specific option just like in your Cell Phone. So in My Playlist's Quick Menu, My Playlist would obviouly not be in the first slot. SOmething else would have the number "1" hot key.
> 
> I will note that in the OP.
> 
> - Craig


Then I look forward to the threads... I hit #5 and it took me to "this screen", when what I wanted is #5 in the list...

Reply: That is #9

Followup: This is so confusing... why is Quick 9, the 5th in the list?

Reply: Well, when the numbers where assigned #9 didn't exist and it was 5th in the list.

Followup: POS 

I am not saying Quick "buttons" are bad...
In the perfect world, we would be able to configure our menu's EXACTLY the way we want them to be... with what ever quick button you want to give it.

But we are not at that point yet... so the GUI has to be designed for the overall user base... and that "crutch" limits what can and can't be done.

While I understand having "less then 10" on a menu, there could be cases where they want more then 10 on the top level...


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> ... so the GUI has to be designed for the overall user base... and that "crutch" limits what can and can't be done.


I hate to be recursive, but

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=898031&postcount=28


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

lamontcranston said:


> I hate to be recursive, but
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=898031&postcount=28


But we are not talking Windows here..
That has the ability and memory space, to load those customizations.
And have all the screens out there to do the customizing.

I do understand the need/desire to have this... I really do..
So for the most part, I am throwing most of this out there just to keep the discussion going.... because this is exactly what would go on, if this idea is brought up by the DirecTV developers as something they want to do on the unit.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

Nick said:


> _UN-FREAKIN-BELIEVEABLE! _:eek2:
> 
> How (or why) you D* subs up with that put, I don't know. :shrug:


Ah, I see you found another opportunity to take a jab at DTV Nick. You seem a little obsessed with this sideline occupation.

I'll answer your question though, I don't use CC, so it doesn't bother me a bit. And by the way, I am enjoying my EI immensely in the first two days of the season. Watched my Twins win two games. Watched the D-Backs blow one in Colorado. Watched Seattle whip up on the A's. All in one night. And I know, yes, I could have subscribed to MLB.com and watched them on a little screen on my computer. But it is hard to do that while I'm on the treadmill.


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## Andrew_J_M (Feb 11, 2005)

Tivo already has a function where you press the Directv button on the remote and each number has a different function - the only one I can ever remember is 2 for the To Do list. No where near as good as this suggestion though.
For IBM mainframers this is very familar - ISPF works exactly like this, with the addition of alpha selections too, but it should be possible to restrict all the menu layers to just 10 options quite simply. It should even be possible to have a configuration option to select the menu layout - 'traditional', 'numeric out of the box' or 'totally user configurable'. Of course when talking to a CSR you would have to put it into one of the first two options. 
Perhaps D* could even supply a PC package to allow users to create their own menu set ups, which could then be transfered to multiple HR20s.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Then I look forward to the threads... I hit #5 and it took me to "this screen", when what I wanted is #5 in the list...


The same people who complain that the Quick Menu is context sensitive today will complain that it will still be context sensitive tomorrow.

For instance if your HR20 lost it's PC link, Music & Photos just disappears. It is not grayed out. It is like it never existed. I can't image how frustrating that would be if you had a macro in a universal remote.

The numbers would give you an *option* to navigate more quickly if you want. You never have to use them.

- Craig


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## mrb (Sep 14, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> To toggle Closed Captioning On/Off is 23 steps, 15 if you know the secrets.


What?? How can I save 8 key presses and why didn't I find this in the CC searching I have been doing today?

Which dear soul is going to provide me the link to that wonderful time saving measure?

And...the Mini Guide...am I wrong in just pressing the BLUE button during live TV will bring it up? I just get a channel banner of the channel I'm watching at the bottom.

Sorry...not new to this forum, but new to the HR20. Happily surprised with it after only four days...praise His name!!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

At any time... hitting the BLUE button (Be it live TV or recorded content) it should bring up the Mini-Guide at the bottom.

The Mini-Guide is just a single line guide (so it would possible look like a banner of the channel you are watching)... so when it is up... move up and down.


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## mrb (Sep 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> At any time... hitting the BLUE button (Be it live TV or recorded content) it should bring up the Mini-Guide at the bottom.
> 
> The Mini-Guide is just a single line guide (so it would possible look like a banner of the channel you are watching)... so when it is up... move up and down.


Yup...but pressing up or down moves to the next channel. To me it's like a miniature Guide screen. IIRC that's all there is, but I'll look through the manual tonight, fear not.

Anyway, more importantly, that secret CC on/off step reduction link please? I swear I did search for CC and looked through the thread titles of all five pages.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mrb said:


> Yup...but pressing up or down moves to the next channel. To me it's like a miniature Guide screen. IIRC that's all there is, but I'll look through the manual tonight, fear not.
> 
> Anyway, more importantly, that secret CC on/off step reduction link please? I swear I did search for CC and looked through the thread titles of all five pages.


That is exactly what the "mini-guide" is... it is a one-line version of the guide.
Going up and down, goes to the next channel in the order.

As for the "secret" cc on/off steps... no idea... as I don't use CC, I haven't investigated it more...


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

mrb said:


> Anyway, more importantly, that secret CC on/off step reduction link please? I swear I did search for CC and looked through the thread titles of all five pages.


I think this refers to pressing the GREEN button when you first get to Set Up, Display. Using this, it only takes 14-15 clicks instead of 23-24 to turn on CC's! :bang /steve


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## mrb (Sep 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is exactly what the "mini-guide" is... it is a one-line version of the guide.
> Going up and down, goes to the next channel in the order.
> 
> As for the "secret" cc on/off steps... no idea... as I don't use CC, I haven't investigated it more...


How useless! I thought it contained other frequently used options/commands. But I guess that is exactly what this discussion thread is about! Silly me. 

sluciani...thanks...I'll try the Green button from Menu.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Question: If you already have a button labeled LIST do you need My Playlist in the Menus as well? Is that adding unnecessary complexity?


Actually, NO, it's not adding complexity, because *LIST *and *My Playlist *in the Quick Menu are two different things! 

The *LIST *button displays a full-screen Playlist.

The *My Playlist *option in the Quick Menu displays a sub-menu of your recorded programs, and you can switch to another recorded program without ever opening the full playing list.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I like the idea of numbered items on the menus to simplify navigation, but I don't understand the discussion about having/not having items "locked" in place. If you're going to number items in a menu, each menu option has to have the same number assigned to it from one user's DVR to another - they can't be user-assignable so that Johnny and Susie have different numbering schemes on their menus.

Being that there are so many sub-menus and context sensitive menus in the current interface, this proposal would be a rather complex redesign of the UI. Development and quality testing costs would have to be weighed, as well as costs to change user documentation, customer service documentation, and provide CSR training. My impression is that while providing shortcuts is a nice idea, there's likely not enough benefit to be derived from this change to make it worthwhile to implement.

Instead, I think smaller, incremental changes to the interface would be the way to go.

I had made a suggestion in the Wish List thread that DirecTV should update the menu system to remember the last option used on each menu. If that proposal is implemented, it would make short-term tasks (like testing different display configuration or running multiple searches) easy to accomplish, as the most recently used option is always highlighted on each menu. 

In addition, if DirecTV implements a quick CC-Toggle option on the Quick Menu on top of my proposal above, then CC becomes a two-step toggle after you use it for the first time, since the CC-toggle option is still selected in the menu.

These two ideas individually would require much less reprogramming, and IMHO, would be easier and cheaper to implement, but collectively they would give a much bigger "bang for the buck"...


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

1. I Luuuuuuuuv this idea. It is what Tivo did but they didn't put the numbers on a menu. They were the hidden trick and I use them to death. (Tivo/2 is a favorite. Tivo/0 used to be fun but the joy is gone.).

2. Fix them. Configuring them for each user would be a support nightmare.

3. Any menu with more than 10 items on it is a UI mistake. Proper grouping makes sense. (And the HR20 does little good grouping...why is Help and Setup on the same submenu?)

4. Earl is wrong on the color buttons. He reminded me about it with his blue button mandate in this thread. Go to one of the MLB SD channels and try the blue button after the channel goes active. No mini-guide, it takes you to the baseball mix. The yellow button gets reassigned, too.

5. I luuuuuuv this idea. Where do I sign up? Heck, I'll help redesign the menus.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tonyd79 said:


> 4. Earl is wrong on the color buttons. He reminded me about it with his blue button mandate in this thread. Go to one of the MLB SD channels and try the blue button after the channel goes active. No mini-guide, it takes you to the baseball mix. The yellow button gets reassigned, too.


Not sure where I was "wrong", incomplete maybe... but the blue button certainly doesn't bring up the mini-guide. I do not have EI so I wasn't aware that button took you to the mix page. Thank you for the update.. EI channels are context sensitive (hence the complexity of having the color buttons do different things in different contexts)


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## eatswodo (Nov 20, 2005)

I love this idea - but if you have to go over 10 options, a sub-menu is the way to do it. No good UI should have more than 10, and it definitely should not use colour as a select mechanism - if you're red-green colour-blind, you're a bit stuck.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

eatswodo said:


> I love this idea - but if you have to go over 10 options, a sub-menu is the way to do it. No good UI should have more than 10, and it definitely should not use colour as a select mechanism - if you're red-green colour-blind, you're a bit stuck.


Good points about usability and color blindness. By some reports, 5% of males are color blind, .5% females. /steve


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## SuperTech1 (Jan 9, 2007)

eatswodo said:


> I love this idea - but if you have to go over 10 options, a sub-menu is the way to do it. No good UI should have more than 10, and it definitely should not use colour as a select mechanism - if you're red-green colour-blind, you're a bit stuck.


Good point, but how does a color blind person use the remote now? Once they ask someone (or read the manual) which button is red/green and what items are assigned to what they can use the buttons for any shortcuts. Just like you know which light is red or green at a traffic light by their location left/right or top/bottom.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

ChrisMinCT said:


> It won't take you but a couple of days to develop a deep sense of sympathy for those of us with hard of hearing partners if you turn on and off CC once a day!!!


I agree with the CC labyrinth. It should be a one button call.

The rest of the menu system, I'm with Earl...I use the box the same way. Nearly everything I do starts with LIST, which is one button. Actually, it is for this reason that I don't use my Harmony remote much...the RC32RF does what I need 99% of the time, especially since it controls my Onkyo volume/mute perfectly.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

I like numbered--seems a good idea.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

hasan said:


> ...Nearly everything I do starts with LIST, which is one button. Actually, it is for this reason that I don't use my Harmony remote much...the RC32RF does what I need 99% of the time, especially since it controls my Onkyo volume/mute perfectly.


Hasan,

The surveys show that this opinion represent about 34% of users.

Are you OK with the number hotlinks for everyone else?

- Craig


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## eatswodo (Nov 20, 2005)

SuperTech1 said:


> Good point, but how does a color blind person use the remote now? Once they ask someone (or read the manual) which button is red/green and what items are assigned to what they can use the buttons for any shortcuts. Just like you know which light is red or green at a traffic light by their location left/right or top/bottom.


Maybe I should have said don't use colour as the *only* selection mechanism. For the buttons on the remote and a traffic light you have a positional cue as well.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Consider this...

Given the chance, almost all users disable Animations. Still Animation is the default.

2% want the <Guide> button to *not* go to the Guide. Still <Guide> does not default to Guide.

Although undocumented, you can toggle Native Mode in 1 step. System Information is also 1 step.

But Closed Captioning is 23 steps though 60% want 1 button CC. It is 11 steps for Parental Controls.

This may seem bizarre until you look at it from the perspective of a new parent.

New parents believe their baby is the best ever. (It is the only way to survive the sleep deprivation.) If you invite them over to see the game, they find excusses to show you another 23 baby photos. And another 23 photos...And another...

I do not mean this facetiously. Every programmer has fallen into this trap from time to time. How could anyone *not* want to see their menus? Over and over again? Slowly...

The number keys let you change channels while enjoying the multimedia menus complete with the PIG (Picture In Guide). They truely believe a vocal minority think menus are a necessary evil.

The problems with the user interface aren't due to a lack of programming skill. They are because of too much skill.

Fixing the code is the easy part.

How do you tell a new parent you don't want to spend another night looking at baby pictures?

How do you explain that you just want to watch TV?

- Craig


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

The problem is how you define success. If success is defined as a change to the user experience, something that envelopes and defines the user experience, then the HR20 succeeds. It's possible for a new user to entertain himself for at least an hour with menus. IMO Tivo was even worse, supering the guide over live TV, taking you out altogether for most menu operations.

If you define success as enhancing the user experience without taking away from it, I'd give the HR20 a B-. Primarily good grades for the mini guide, picture-in-list, and the quick menu. Bad grades for anything that takes more than 5 button presses. There were very few options that took more than that on Tivo, so while you were away from Live TV completely, you weren't away as long.

If I were designing the UI I would focus on four core concepts:

-speed of use for the advanced user
-how intuitive it was for the first timer
-retention of all settings under all circumstances
-documentation available on ALL items

1. Assume that most heavy users will gain basic proficiency fairly quickly and then will want to customize. Give them a simple set of tools for customization within reasonable limits.

2. Use basic concepts and logical menu placement for a quick learn. Avoid non-standard terms (myVod? Give me a break) and use commonly agreed iconography (record button and light should both be red not orange or gold)

3. Cache and save ALL settings including active ones. This is getting better but still could improve. In addition while there is obviously some "POST" type behavior on boot it might not be enough. If all settings were saved then POST could compare against known good settings and, for example, you wouldn't lose a tuner and not know it.

4. Write a manual, have it available on line, with EVERY icon, result of EVERY button press in EVERY menu, etc. including what success and failure look like in EVERY circumstance. 

Bottom line, give people the flexibility to use the equipment in the way that makes them happy, and you'll have a real winner.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Once a numbered system is implemented, how hard would it be to throw in a "toggle" to turn "Menu Shortcuts" ON or OFF? It turns into another user choice which is, IMO, what most everyone for or against would benefit from. It makes it a choice. I like to look at some things in the way of numbers... You have to basically figure that each one of us here represents 1,000 D* subscribers. Probably more but let's just use that as an example.... So when you're looking at polls you can basically x 1,000. It's not just me or Milo or anyone saying we think it's a good idea, it's more like 10,000 people saying they'd like this idea... That's just my thoughts and $.02


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> The problem is how you define success...


I think you should go work for D*. You're in Southern Cal.

Awesome ideas :up:


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> I think you should go work for D*. You're in Southern Cal.
> 
> Awesome ideas :up:


Thanks, Matt.

If anyone at DirecTV is listening....


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> Once a numbered system is implemented, how hard would it be to throw in a "toggle" to turn "Menu Shortcuts" ON or OFF?


I don't think there would be a reason to disable the menu shortcuts.

I bet it will be just like the menu shortcuts in our PC's.

Some users may know that they are dramatically faster to hit: 
<Ctrl>-<X> 
<Ctrl>-<V>

to Cut and Paste.

Others have no idea the shortcuts are even listed in PC menus. They will never know they are here either.

- Craig


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

I only say that as some people might hit buttons... and keep going farther into a menu they don't really want to be at. When things go wrong, average person "mashes" the remote until something works. Give them a way to turn it off as well. There's always arguments for both sides. Give each side the choice.


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> I only say that as some people might hit buttons... and keep going farther into a menu they don't really want to be at. When things go wrong, average person "mashes" the remote until something works. Give them a way to turn it off as well. There's always arguments for both sides. Give each side the choice.


I think this is all pretty much like designing Windows software. You always incorporate keyboard shortcuts for just about everything. Most people use the mouse. But there's people like me who learn the keyboard shortcuts for things they do frequently and use them. I get frustrated, actually, when software vendors neglect to put in those shortcuts and force you to use the mouse.

I fly through Word, Excel and Powerpoint using the keyboard. Most people use the mouse. The fact that the menus have these shortcuts doesn't frustrate those users. They simply ignore them.

So, my point is that having these shortcuts enables people like me but doesn't impact those that don't want to use them.


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## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

ChrisMinCT said:


> I think this is all pretty much like designing Windows software.


To further your point: Poor interfaces have always been a huge source of frustration for me.

Too many times an excellent piece of software gets marginalized or ignored because the user interface is not intuitive or just plain doesn't work. 
A good example of this is most open source apps.

Not every programmer should create the interface just because they can.

You need a real interface expert to build the interface.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

To all the folks that spent time and effort on this...it is much appreciated! I hope D will incorporate this type of thing into the HR20.

Thanks again!



Milominderbinder2 said:


> Most of us have cell phones or voice mail. We use shortcuts like 1 - 1 - 2. They are so easy to remember we don't even think about them.
> 
> Why can't the HR20 do that?
> 
> ...


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

mrb said:


> What?? How can I save 8 key presses and why didn't I find this in the CC searching I have been doing today?
> 
> Which dear soul is going to provide me the link to that wonderful time saving measure?


MRB,

This was such a great question, that I have turned it into a competition:

Can You Find the Fewest Steps to Turn Closed Captioning on? 

Maybe someone can figure out how to do it in less than 15 complicated steps!

- Craig


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> MRB,
> 
> This was such a great question, that I have turned it into a competition:
> 
> ...


For those who haven't checked this thread out yet, we've got it down to 13 clicks (actually 12 if you want to use one button that has to be held down for 3 seconds)! Anyone else know any "back doors" we haven't figured out yet? /steve


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not sure where I was "wrong", incomplete maybe... but the blue button certainly doesn't bring up the mini-guide. I do not have EI so I wasn't aware that button took you to the mix page. Thank you for the update.. EI channels are context sensitive (hence the complexity of having the color buttons do different things in different contexts)


And that is why I don't have a problem with using a color button for CC that may do something else when you are on an interactive channel. The precedent is already set.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

The 0x14b CE Test Results show that the next CE's speed has gotten worse...

- Craig


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Do you know the Cut & Paste trick in Windows? 
<Ctrl><X>
<Ctrl><V>

Do you use it?

If you don't use the shortcuts, do you even notice that they are always listed in the menus?


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Do you know the Cut & Paste trick in Windows?
> <Ctrl><X>
> <Ctrl><V>
> 
> ...


I'm curious ... No one has posted in this thread for a week, until your post, so who are you replying to?


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

The old directv RCA receivers had the numbered menu system. Worked quite nicely and if you don't want them you can always scroll up and down the long way.

-mk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Dish's receivers used the idea from beginning and still support it in newest STB/DVR. 

So, the thread just reinveting wheel, sorry.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Dish's receivers used the idea from beginning and still support it in newest STB/DVR.
> 
> So, the thread just reinveting wheel, sorry.


Congratulations to Dish, and so what? So what that they had it first? The point of this thread is to bring the community's attention to this menu numbering system to drum up support for it, so votes are cast in favor of it on the HR20 wish list.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

OK, just did feel the over exiting from ppl who posting here .


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## MrKlaatu (Mar 8, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Playing Devil's advocate...
> What do you do if that menu needs to have more then 10 entries...


My Helios x5000 has numbered menu items. You can scroll down and press enter OR you can enter the number. For long lists (over 10), you can scroll down, page down, OR just enter a two digit number. They got the timing right. I've never had it go to "#1" if I wanted "#19" because I took too long to hit the 9-button. And, it doesn't seem like I'm waiting for nothing when I want a single-digit entry.

All that aside, why would people need to toggle CC off an on? Are they intermittently deaf?


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## lucky13 (Nov 27, 2006)

MrKlaatu said:


> My Helios x5000 has numbered menu items. You can scroll down and press enter OR you can enter the number. For long lists (over 10), you can scroll down, page down, OR just enter a two digit number. They got the timing right. I've never had it go to "#1" if I wanted "#19" because I took too long to hit the 9-button. And, it doesn't seem like I'm waiting for nothing when I want a single-digit entry.
> 
> All that aside, why would people need to toggle CC off an on? Are they intermittently deaf?


I want CC "on demand." It's usually off, but sometimes I can't understand a bit of dialogue, even after hearing it 2 or 3 times. So I put on CC, see what was said, and then want to turn it off.

It's also useful for viewing lyrics on Letterman or SNL.

Hint: Once you've slogged through the button presses to turn on CC, the BACK button will quickly retrieve the CC toggle screen.


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## kmkraft_1974 (Feb 13, 2006)

lucky13 said:


> I want CC "on demand." It's usually off, but sometimes I can't understand a bit of dialogue, even after hearing it 2 or 3 times. So I put on CC, see what was said, and then want to turn it off.
> 
> It's also useful for viewing lyrics on Letterman or SNL.
> 
> Hint: Once you've slogged through the button presses to turn on CC, the BACK button will quickly retrieve the CC toggle screen.


I agree. one button CC would be great.

thanks for the "back" hint. Will save me a lot of button presses for sure.


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## lucky13 (Nov 27, 2006)

kmkraft_1974 said:


> I agree. one button CC would be great.
> 
> thanks for the "back" hint. Will save me a lot of button presses for sure.


No problem.
That's why we're here.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I can tell you - the CC button is nicely exist in AT&T 622HZ 2WIRE software, an yellow one .


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I completely understand that... but I know one of my neighboors who has a child that is hard of hearing...
> 
> They simply leave it on... they don't turn it on and off.
> 
> And I not against quick buttons... but to artificially limit the menu to 10 entries, and to specifically lock them into a position order... just so that they can be assigned a number...


I don't know why you kiss D* ass like that. You mentioned many times you don't work for D* but always on the defensive when someone suggests something better for the box. CC on/off toggle is definitely a BIG plus for some of us. You might not use it but some of us do. And we don't want to use CC when we watch some channels and do sometimes on other channels...

Get a life, man.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Currently, the biggest CON for me in making my decision on whether or not to stay with D* when I move to HD, is the CC system. With a 2 year old and a 4 year old running around the house, we currently use CC all the time. 

Not having a one button option for CC is a big deal for us.


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## Bingo123 (Jul 6, 2007)

Not having a one-button CC is a HUGE loss for me. I work from home, and when I'm on the phone, I like to keep track of what's going on on MSBC or CNN through the closed captioning. Likewise, when I call my elderly mother at night, and she starts into one of her long stories about what her neighbor Marge said today, I can pretend to listen while reading what's happening on-screen. 

My brand-new Sammy HD TV even has a single button to turn on CC. Of course, it doesn't work when you are using satellite. 

Give me a one-button CC!!! SOON!


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## gulfwarvet (Mar 7, 2007)

cuibap said:


> I don't know why you kiss D* ass like that.


have you ever heard of maintaining "good" relations????? i think this was uncalled for. granted everyone has their right to a opinion. Just this is NOT the way to do!!!

sorry Earl for stepping in. just this was wrong :nono2:


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## johnd'oh (May 1, 2007)

Just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents.

I agree that some kind of menu shortcuts would be a welcome addition. I didn't think about the fact that you would no longer be able to change channels, but it seems highly remote that someone brings up a menu and then all of a sudden needs to change the channel. My guess is they bring up a menu to do some task, once they are finished, they go back to watching TV. So losing that functionality doesn't seem like a big deal to me. If it wasn't for that, I'd say just put them in and only people that want to use them would need to know about them.

And as has been posted upstream, I feel Windows makes great use of shortcuts. If people want to use the mouse, great for them. But if they also include shortcuts that people can use, even better. A good UI should be able to handle a few different ways to do the same thing. 

Back when I had DirecTivo, I loved the shortcuts and used them all the time. Of course at first, I did everything the slow way since I was a novice. But the UI was clear and obvious and made completing tasks a breeze. Then I started looking online and learned about all the hidden secrets. Then using Tivo was a blast. I could whip around the UI with only a few button presses. I didn't feel slowed down by the UI, it went as fast as I wanted. I didn't need tons of buttons just to get around. A good UI should be able to be maneuvered with the minimal amount of controls. I don't feel all the extra buttons I gained when I moved to the HR20 have made my life easier or quicker, just more cumbersome.

Side rant, I really don't understand why the HR20 remote need all those dang buttons. I tried upgrading to a Harmony remote and even with that I wasn't able to map all the buttons to it without having to use a few pages of the LCD screen. I don't want to have to page through my remote just to get to a button. So I went back to my Sony VL710 (have loved this remote since the day I got it) but it's about 4 buttons shy of being able to map everything. So I go with out Red, Blue Green and Back. And I have to say I don't feel I'm missing anything. I think I could easily get rid of using Stop if there was a quick and easy way to get to the end of a recording. 

Sorry, here's a mini rant. In future releases, please get rid of any shortcuts that require you to hold a button for a few seconds. They are time consuming and don't work well with universal remotes. 

Deep breath, I feel better now.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

cuibap said:


> I don't know why you kiss D* ass like that. You mentioned many times you don't work for D* but always on the defensive when someone suggests something better for the box. CC on/off toggle is definitely a BIG plus for some of us. You might not use it but some of us do. And we don't want to use CC when we watch some channels and do sometimes on other channels...
> 
> Get a life, man.


I believe you should re-read your own post (above) and turn it on yourself. Maybe some of you _DO_ use the CC option but what _YOU_ obviously don't understand is the difference between some and most. *MOST* people don't use the CC option. I've only turned it on because I wanted to see what other people are having issues with. I would almost bet you that _MOST_ people don't know how to turn it on and really don't care to know. The only times I see it is at a bar or restaraunt.

There's also a difference between being on the defensive and stating the facts. Just because the facts aren't suiting your argument you are going on the offensive.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Currently, the biggest CON for me in making my decision on whether or not to stay with D* when I move to HD, is the CC system. With a 2 year old and a 4 year old running around the house, we currently use CC all the time.
> 
> Not having a one button option for CC is a big deal for us.


If you have children running around the house you want to be very careful with the HR-20 as any search can bring up the titles of adult programming no matter how your parental controls are set. So, unless you want your young child asking what a Spring Break Sex Party is keep them away while you do any searches.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cuibap said:


> I don't know why you kiss D* ass like that. You mentioned many times you don't work for D* but always on the defensive when someone suggests something better for the box. CC on/off toggle is definitely a BIG plus for some of us. You might not use it but some of us do. And we don't want to use CC when we watch some channels and do sometimes on other channels...
> 
> Get a life, man.


Thank you for your insight 3 months later....

Thank you very much for your advise... Could have used it 3 months ago, so I could enjoy my summer more... oh wait... I did...

It is posts like that, that make me want to get up in the morning and just... help everyone out... 
--------------

Again... I do understand that some people want a way to have a quick toggle for CC... really do.
But what percentage of the user base is that? Is it enough to take away something else that a larger percentage of the user base could use that button for ?

I will still argue that the BULK of CC users, leave it on all the time... (especially those that have MUST use it)
As suggested many times over, I would like to see them simply add it under the Audio section in the Quick Menu... simple on/off toggle.


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## MrKlaatu (Mar 8, 2007)

Ken S said:


> So, unless you want your young child asking what a Spring Break Sex Party is keep them away while you do any searches.


I'll tell you what it is: a classic.


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Again... I do understand that some people want a way to have a quick toggle for CC... really do.
> But what percentage of the user base is that? Is it enough to take away something else that a larger percentage of the user base could use that button for ?
> 
> I will still argue that the BULK of CC users, leave it on all the time... (especially those that have MUST use it)
> As suggested many times over, I would like to see them simply add it under the Audio section in the Quick Menu... simple on/off toggle.


I'm not disabled in any way (that I know of), and neither is anyone in my immediate family... but this comment struck me a little oddly.

CC doesn't exist because a majority of people use it. If that were the case, CC would never have made it into the signal. This is a bigger issue, and D* needs to take a step back and recognize that.

I have bought several TVs over the last 10 years, and I cannot think of one single set that didn't have a CC button on the remote. Not one. Everything from the $89 Wal-Mart special up to the new 65" DLP, they all have one button on the remote dedicated to CC functions.

Now of course, we could analyze this with the same insight and come to the same conclusion. Each manufacturer could have placed the CC function in their own audio menu, or a services menu. It didn't even have to be at the first or second level in that menu. They could have omitted that button on the remote and probably saved money.

But they didn't.

I'm going to say this and I hope I don't offend anyone, but for everyone who thinks the way D* is doing this is "OK", go grab the remote that came with your TV. Look and see if it has a CC button. If you can't find one that looks like it performs the function, maybe look in the manual. There's a very very good chance that every factory remote has a single button that turns on or off the CC function, for every set made in the last 10-15 years.

If D* is making judgements on where to place the CC functions based on 'user base percentages', then they're doing it the *wrong way*. Did they get rid of the handicapped parking spaces at the D* corporate HQ too? I mean, what percentage of people really *use* those spaces? We could do something better with that space...

:nono2:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Meklos said:


> I'm not disabled in any way (that I know of), and neither is anyone in my immediate family... but this comment struck me a little oddly.
> 
> CC doesn't exist because a majority of people use it. If that were the case, CC would never have made it into the signal. This is a bigger issue, and D* needs to take a step back and recognize that.
> 
> ...


So every other device out there, that doesn't have a quick toggle for CC (which is just about everyone that I own)... is wrong?

None of my DVD players haver a quick CC turn on button (I have to go through the subtitle options)...

Only one of my TV's have a CC turn on button, the others... nope... not even my expensive Plasma has it.

Which button on the remote do you suggest they take away, to use for CC... that basically won't ever be able to be used again for something else?... which one..

The Blue button is used for the one-line guide... so should they dump that functionality?
The Red button is used by almost every interactive application (which is part of the live broadcast screen)
How about the Yellow button... which is used to toggle through the AUDIO options.. .(which again... is what I suggested that CC toggle be included under)
Or then there is the GREEN button... which right now doesn't have a function in live TV, but does have functions in other segments of the system.

So maybe that is the key.... the green button... but then that would be it, that button can't be used for any other future function....

I am not arguing against the option of having a one-button CC...
Just simply again pointing out, that there are pro's and con's to that decision, and it impacts what other features they can offer, that may frankly be used more often and benefit from a single button access.

No DirecTV tuner for the last 4 years (that has had had the RC series of remote), has had a quick CC toggle button... this isn't some new conspiracy to the HR20.

The different is now you have to decode the CC on the receiver, and not the TV... so you can't rely on any feature that the TV built into it.

So maybe the key is.... introduce a discrete IR code to the system, that thrid party programmable remote controls could access...

Or take the time and effort to redesign the RC series remote (which they should do anyway), and at the same time... add more buttons so that these types of things can be added.

As for the Handicapped parking... Sorry... that is a LEGAL requirement...
And not a very direct comparison.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

One more thing on this quick CC toggle...

At the end of the day it boils down to the same as a lot of things:

Resources Available - In this case, available buttons on the remote
And the allocation of those Resources, to maximize benefits...

That's it... and that is pretty much my entire argument on it.
I have no problem, making it quicker to access in the GUI menu... none (and I do think it's proper place is under the audio menu)

If the Remote was larger and had more buttons... then yes... it should be there. But it doesn't, and thus the argument on what "stays" and what "goes", and what should not be included in the future.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Personaly I love the idea of a descrete code for CC.. Then if worst came to worst they could offer a special remote..
By the way all of my tv's have CC either in the remote or within 2 button presses, And if I remember right it was on the remote (under a sliding cover) on my Sir-ts360 too..


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not arguing against the option of having a one-button CC...





Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the Handicapped parking... Sorry... that is a LEGAL requirement...
> And not a very direct comparison.


If you want to get technical, broadcasters are required to broadcast 20 hours of CC programming a day, if I'm not mistaken. TVs are required to be able to decode CC. If the receiver is 'stepping in the middle' and disabling the TV to do it's job, then the argument could be made that the legal requirement now falls to the receiver (since it stopped passing the information on to the TV).

I'm done with this discussion. Otherwise I'll end up saying something I shouldn't...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Meklos said:


> If you want to get technical, broadcasters are required to broadcast 20 hours of CC programming a day, if I'm not mistaken. TVs are required to be able to decode CC. If the receiver is 'stepping in the middle' and disabling the TV to do it's job, then the argument could be made that the legal requirement now falls to the receiver (since it stopped passing the information on to the TV).
> 
> I'm done with this discussion. Otherwise I'll end up saying something I shouldn't...


Depending on what exact FCC regulation you are looking at...
There is a different definition for the DIGITAL broadcasts (Which I believe Capmeister posted a link too).

It is the a requirement of the TUNING equipment (be it the TV or the external box), to handle the CC now... not necessarily the display device.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Doesn't the HR20 decode CC? I thought the argument going on here was about the remote not having a button for it.

I too feel there should be a quicker way to access this menu/feature and have always been one of Capmeister's biggest supporters.


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## MrKlaatu (Mar 8, 2007)

With my old DVR, I would turn CC on/off using my TV remote. Since it's closed captioning, can't the HR20 send the signal to the set and let the TV decide to display it or not?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

MrKlaatu said:


> With my old DVR, I would turn CC on/off using my TV remote. Since it's closed captioning, can't the HR20 send the signal to the set and let the TV decide to display it or not?


HDMI does not carry CC...


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Thank you for your insight 3 months later....
> 
> Thank you very much for your advise... Could have used it 3 months ago, so I could enjoy my summer more... oh wait... I did...
> 
> ...


What about handicapped parking spots? Not many people are handicap but we always see those handicapped parking spots everywhere. You need to think about those people as well. If you live in a household with someone who needs cc and you don't want to have cc on when you watch TV, you WILL understand.

I missed the post 3 months but the problem still remains the same. I greatly appreciate your help on the board but if something needs change, DON'T defend D* since they are obviously don't care about handicapped people.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

houskamp said:


> HDMI does not carry CC...


I would never use HR20 cc function if HDMI carries cc signals. Found out that long ago when I first got the box and tried to get the TV to do it which is A LOT better than the HR20.

I don't understand why HDMI doesn't carry CC signal??? Seems like we going backward...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cuibap said:


> What about handicapped parking spots? Not many people are handicap but we always see those handicapped parking spots everywhere. You need to think about those people as well. If you live in a household with someone who needs cc and you don't want to have cc on when you watch TV, you WILL understand.
> 
> I missed the post 3 months but the problem still remains the same. I greatly appreciate your help on the board but if something needs change, DON'T defend D* since they are obviously don't care about handicapped people.


Here is the thing.... I do understand... I really do.

But if we must compare this to handicapped spots (which I don't think is any where close to a proper analogy). And again... I am greatfull that I am not handicapped and can walk the nominal distance.

How often do you go to a LOT, where it is full... except for the Handicap spots. Spaces that can't/won't be used by the "BULK"/Vast majority of the customers.

Why I don't think it is a good analogy, you are talking about parking, which a handicapped person it would be extremely difficult from them to walk. Time, disconfort, and injruy possibly.... where with the CC, we are talking about what 15 seconds, maybe 30 to turn on Closed Caption, from the comfrot of your sofa...

So again... I completely understand the want, the desire, the need..
But with limited buttons on the remote... where should it go... what feature should be removed from the buttons available.

Short of rebuilding the remote (which I do think should be done, CC amongst the reasons)... what should be done? That it doesn't become a button, that most people won't use.

I do agree, that it should be added to the quick menu, to shorten the number of button presses it takes.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I am a little surprised that with all the positive response on user suggestions over the past 6 months, that D* has not moved on this particular issue. Adding or Reordering the menu seems such a simple task in comparison to some of the daunting tasks they face. Especially after that long suggestion thread way back on how and where on the remote to make it happen.


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Here is the thing.... I do understand... I really do.
> 
> But if we must compare this to handicapped spots (which I don't think is any where close to a proper analogy). And again... I am greatfull that I am not handicapped and can walk the nominal distance.
> 
> ...


I personally don't care if it is a button or a quick menu. The way it works now simply is not acceptable in my book. Of course D* doesn't care what I have to say but it SHOULD. It's a win-win situation.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Some thoughts:
If CC on and CC off are discrete control codes that another remote control could use, I would consider it Ok to offer a special remote or let the 3rd party remotes handle the situation. If there were a charge, I'd consider that poor form, but adequate.

The blue button for single line guide was a poor choice, IMHO. Lots of STBs exist in cable and satellite realms that just use the up and down arrows to enable a mini guide. At this point, probably is too late to switch; but that would have left CC on the blue button very nicely.

I have been intrigued with the concept of putting CC on the audio items off the main menu. that seems to be a very nice compromise.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Some thoughts:
> If CC on and CC off are discrete control codes that another remote control could use, I would consider it Ok to offer a special remote or let the 3rd party remotes handle the situation. If there were a charge, I'd consider that poor form, but adequate.
> 
> The blue button for single line guide was a poor choice, IMHO. Lots of STBs exist in cable and satellite realms that just use the up and down arrows to enable a mini guide. At this point, probably is too late to switch; but that would have left CC on the blue button very nicely.
> ...


Interesting idea, Tom. A Blue Button CC and an up/down arrow mini-guide might be an elegant solution. Do you really think it's too late to switch?

If it is too late, my next choice would be a CC toggle off the Quick Menu.

And if not that, a CC toggle added to the Yellow button audio options might work. First click could be English with captions, second click could be SAP (if applicable), and the next click could take you back to "normal" (English, no captions).

I also second Earl's observation in an earlier post that at some point in the future, D* might consider "rethinking" the remote.

Just my .02.

/steve


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## cuibap (Sep 14, 2006)

Steve said:


> And if not that, a CC toggle added to the Yellow button audio options might work. First click could be English with captions, second click could be SAP (if applicable), and the next click could take you back to "normal" (English, no captions).
> /steve


This is the best idea so far on the CC toggle option. I don't think that is hard to do either.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Some thoughts:
> If CC on and CC off are discrete control codes that another remote control could use, I would consider it Ok to offer a special remote or let the 3rd party remotes handle the situation. If there were a charge, I'd consider that poor form, but adequate.
> 
> The blue button for single line guide was a poor choice, IMHO. Lots of STBs exist in cable and satellite realms that just use the up and down arrows to enable a mini guide. At this point, probably is too late to switch; but that would have left CC on the blue button very nicely.
> ...


I would have no objection to moving the mini-guide to the UP/DOWN arrow keys and freeing up the BLUE key for CC, but ... that GREEN key is just sitting there unused in in live TV and playback of recorded content, so it seems simplest to me to assign CC there.

Earl wrote earlier that if GREEN was used for CC then that key could be used for nothing else, but I can't agree with that based on reassigned functionality of the YELLOW and BLUE keys in interactive applications.

In live TV and recorded playback, YELLOW toggles audio. However, when you're watching an interactive channel like 622 YES-SD, the interactive application reassigns the YELLOW and BLUE keys to new functions. I forget what YELLOW does, but it no longer toggles audio. The BLUE no longer toggles the mini-guide, but instead toggles the Bonus Cam view. So DIRECTV already has precedent for changing functionality of these keys in LIVE TV.

Now consider GREEN used for CC. In live TV or playback of a recorded program, it would simply turn CC on and off with each key press. However, if you switch to a channel that calls up an interactive app and it reassigns the GREEN key, you'll lose the quick toggle to CC, just like YES interactive users lose access to the quick audio toggle option with the YELLOW key. So if you need CC on this interactive channel, turn CC on using the existing menu path. This would be no different than not being able to toggle the audio on YES-SD with the yellow key, where instead you have to go to the menu and choose Audio Options.

So ... seems like a simple solution to me, and should be less invasive to both the coders (no code changes to BLUE/UP/DOWN) and the users (no need to re-learn how to toggle the mini-guide). In short, use GREEN to toggle CC on or off when in live TV or playback, and if you're in an interactive app that needs the GREEN key, toggle CC using the menus, as is done now.

Given all that, I would also not mind seeing CC added to the YELLOW audio option in a pop-up menu, but again ... interactive viewers may lose THAT functionality when the interactive app reassigns the YELLOW key to a new function.


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## waynenm (Oct 31, 2006)

cuibap said:


> This is the best idea so far on the CC toggle option. I don't think that is hard to do either.


Agreed. When watching something as available as Dr. Who, toggling CC to understand the Brits would be such a beautiful thing. Why not? Come on D*!


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I just thought of one other point to add to the discussion about the use of the color keys and Interactive apps...

If the user values the normal functionality provided by the color key MORE than the user values the functionality provided by the Interactive app, the user can simply press the EXIT key after the Interactive app is loaded, and any color keys reassigned to the functions of the Interactive app are reassigned back to their normal functionality.


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## bc3tech (Jan 3, 2007)

all this talk about using the remote to its fullest & not a single mention of being able to enter into the search box using the remote like a cell phone keypad... dish did this and the first time I tried searching w/ DirecTV i nearly shot myself.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

It's time to tlak about this some more.

- Craig


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## Slyster (May 17, 2005)

Just have the numbers set to options by DEFAULT! How often do we actually manually change channels? It's a DVR.. not just a reciever box!

We mostly use the playlist and guide and series links etc.. no? I probably don't manually 'change the channel' more than 1 time per week.. yet I am always in the menus!

To change channels.. it could be 'menu' and then the number pad.


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## west5648 (Oct 13, 2007)

I dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but why not use one of the color keys to cycle through your favorites list while looking in the guide. Its annoying to have to go through the menu to do it, unless I have missed a option I haven't heard about.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

It's clear from the changes that DIRECTV made in the latest CE software (see the CE forum for more information) that DIRECTV is interested in standardizing the menus across the different features. I would love to have numbered shortcuts to the different Quick Menu options - but I would hate to see them on-screen. 

In the TiVo interface, there were hidden numbered shortcuts: MENU + 1 = Season Passes, MENU + 2 = To Do List, MENU + 3 = Wishlists, etc. None of these numbers were present on the main menu, but when you pressed the number while the menu was open, it worked great to jump you to the desired feature. This was considered an advanced/hidden feature in TiVo, and I wouldn't mind having an advanced/hidden feature like this in the HR20: Hit MENU + 1 to go to Playlist, MENU + 2 = On Demand, MENU + 3 = Search, MENU + 4 = Manage Recordings, etc.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> It's clear from the changes that DIRECTV made in the latest CE software (see the CE forum for more information) that DIRECTV is interested in standardizing the menus across the different features. I would love to have numbered shortcuts to the different Quick Menu options - but I would hate to see them on-screen.
> 
> In the TiVo interface, there were hidden numbered shortcuts: MENU + 1 = Season Passes, MENU + 2 = To Do List, MENU + 3 = Wishlists, etc. None of these numbers were present on the main menu, but when you pressed the number while the menu was open, it worked great to jump you to the desired feature. This was considered an advanced/hidden feature in TiVo, and I wouldn't mind having an advanced/hidden feature like this in the HR20: Hit MENU + 1 to go to Playlist, MENU + 2 = On Demand, MENU + 3 = Search, MENU + 4 = Manage Recordings, etc.


Nice idea! They could provide a "cheat sheet" explaining the numeric shortcuts under the HELP menu. /steve


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Steve said:


> Nice idea! They could provide a "cheat sheet" explaining the numeric shortcuts under the HELP menu. /steve


And of course, the good folks here at DBSTalk would fill in newcomers on a cool quick way to jump to a feature ... 

Over time, people will become so used to the shortcut options they use most that they wouldn't even need a cheat-sheet!


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