# 721 Satisfaction Demographics Poll



## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm somewhat curious on how the demographics of the 721 plays out in regards to being satisfied with the unit.

It's no secret I'm very dissatisfied with a number of issues on the 721, and I think the last poll was too tightly focused to give an accurate picture of what the demographics of the 721 really plays out to be.

I realize that making polls complicated turns off would-be poll respondents. I'm going to try to make it as simple and understandable as possible, while still being fairly comprehensive on demographics. If you are going to answer, please check your answer carefully, so you are attributed to the correct category.

The primary difference is who has owned a competing PVR (Such as Tivo, ReplayTV, UltimateTV, etc...) and who has never owned one, other than the 721 or another Dish PVR.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

I have owned a UTV, and although name-based recording is cool, I didn't like paying $10 per month for it. My 721 has been stable as long as I have owned it, and I am satisfied with its performance, as is my wife.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

Won't the "I don't own a 721 field skew the poll results"?

Should one have to own a 721 to get to vote in the poll?

There are 220 million people in this country who don't own a 721.


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

Well, since there isn't really any way to limit people from voting, I decided to put that vote ioption in for the people that feel compelled to click buttons.

It won't really skew the vote, as you can just discount that "category" all together and add the percentages up manually.

The vote is turning out a bit more realisitically than the previous one, I think. It's about what I expected, with a bit of divergence.

According to this poll (which obviously isn't as stasistically accurate as I'd like) - the majority of 721 owners (by a somewhat narrow margin at this point) have never owned another PVR, and are still only "somewhat" satisfied. I'd like to see more responses from people who've owned other PVR's prior (or concurrently) to the 721, as I think that would be the really telling tale of how well the 721 is thought of. 

I will admit that I'm suprised that I'm the only response to the "I've owned another PVR and am NOT satisfied" category.

As for the $10/mo for the PVR fee for DTV/Tivo, I hadn't really considered that as part of the poll satisfication, and was more thinking towards a purely functional standpoint, as opposed to any fee's associated with it. Although, the decision to go with a 721 and no PVR fee was a major deciding factor in my case as well... I'm still more interested in the demographics from a purely functional/reliability standpoint.


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## dishrich (Apr 23, 2002)

Inaba said:


> As for the $10/mo for the PVR fee for DTV/Tivo...


The D-Tivo is only $5 - Neil is talking about the UTV, which IS $10.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Inaba said:


> According to this poll (which obviously isn't as stasistically accurate as I'd like) - the majority of 721 owners (by a somewhat narrow margin at this point) have never owned another PVR, and are still only "somewhat" satisfied. I'd like to see more responses from people who've owned other PVR's prior (or concurrently) to the 721, as I think that would be the really telling tale of how well the 721 is thought of.


There is a wide range from completely to somewhat to totally unsatisfied. So this could easily be read two different ways. If person is not completely satisfied in that there are a few announce they might vote towards the Somewhat satisfied. On the other end, if the 721 is not crashing but there are a lot of annoyance they might vote towards a somewhat satisfied response.

I am not suprised that the number skewed towards the somewhat satisfied and I read it as another data point that seem to indicate the same response as the "is the 721 reliable" poll.

I am very surprised that you are the only one that marked "Totally unsatisfied". Did Bob miss the poll?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

oops... looks like we got a few more votes there. As you said these polls are by no means statistical.


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## thomasmaly (Jul 7, 2002)

I have owned a 721 since July, 2002. My wife and
I are very satisfied with it's performance. From what I have
seen at this forum, it seems the more technically trained
a 721 owner is, the more it will be seen as a sometimes "piece of junk". I am on the opposite end of the
spectrum and am very satisfied with the 721.
Thanks,
Tom


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## sleepy hollow (Aug 25, 2003)

While I find this very useful, it is neither a poll nor scientific. It is more in the realm of anecdotal information. There is nothing statistical about it and no way to know whether the results are valid in any way, shape, or form. 

I am not trying to denigrate the exercise. As I said, I like these as a "finger to the breeze" sort of view, but folks should not get too worked up about the results. Take them for what they are worth, a set of responses to a set of questions. If we could validate them then the reults would indicate a pretty high level of satisfaction with the product. But that is NOT a valid conclusion from this exercise since it is not a real poll. In fact there are no real conclusions that can be drawn statistically.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2003)

sleepy hollow said:


> While I find this very useful, it is neither a poll nor scientific. It is more in the realm of anecdotal information. There is nothing statistical about it and no way to know whether the results are valid in any way, shape, or form.
> 
> I am not trying to denigrate the exercise. As I said, I like these as a "finger to the breeze" sort of view, but folks should not get too worked up about the results. Take them for what they are worth, a set of responses to a set of questions. If we could validate them then the reults would indicate a pretty high level of satisfaction with the product. But that is NOT a valid conclusion from this exercise since it is not a real poll. In fact there are no real conclusions that can be drawn statistically.


I am in agreement..

This poll does seem to indicate that some 721 owners are more williing to tolerate some problems than others. It would be interesting to know 721 problems push some 721 owners into "not satisfied" and what 721 problems only only rate as "somewhat satisfed" for some 721 owners.

Just for the sampling I'd like to see what percentage of 721 owners that visit this forum experience any problems with their 721 VS no problems at all. One's level of tolerance of problems is not idiciative of the percentage of units with problems, but seems more indicative of one's willingness to accept a product not performing as advertised.


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## sleepy hollow (Aug 25, 2003)

I generally agree with you but would have a few quibbles.

There is no way to infer from the poll that some Dish customers tolerate more problems than others. All this can possibly tell us is an overall measure of satisfaction and perhaps some measure of satisfaction in comparison with other PVR experiences. 

Satisfaction is wholly subjective and reflects perceptions only. There is no empirical data here about numbers of problems or other objective indicators of levels of equipment performance. So, all this says (if it said anything statistically significant, which it does not) is that Dish PVR customers are reasonably well satisfied even when they have had experience with non-Dish PVRs.

If it were a scientific poll, it would be pretty positive for Dish, though of greater interest would be trends in this data over time. In that context, such data as this in a real poll could be either a disaster or reason for dancing and celebration at E* corp. Depends on whether we are going down from better results or up from worse ones. 

Bottom line - this is an ink blot and you can see just about anything in it because for the most part it is amorphous, that is, without rigor and inconclusive.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I agree that this poll and also the one I posted a while back by no means is a statistical measure. Reliability, Usability, and Satisfaction is all subject and very hard to measure. 

I do feel the one thing that can be taken from this is that the 721, though it is given some people a lot of grief, is not a unusable piece of crap. Sounds like some people are getting value of it and are happy. Lot different than what one would be lead to believe given the flood of posts stating otherwise. 

LIke you said sleepy.. this is more of a finger in the wind reading just as when you read the reviews on CNET of a given product. It is one data point and may or may not represent the true reality of the situation. 

I would also have to say that the true reality of the state of a product would not be retained by reading all posts on this forum regarding a product. Once again it would be one data point and it my or may not reflect reality. 

It is the each persons choice to weigh each piece of the equation and form their own opinions. 

Good poll none the less.


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## sleepy hollow (Aug 25, 2003)

Well said. I agree completely. There certainly seems to be a disproportionate share of "complainers" prowling the Dish forum. Of course those who have no complaints are not likely to post. So, just like bad news always sells better than good news, complaints will appear to taint a product or whatever beyond what is probably deserved. 

For example, I personally am most eager to order a 921. I am disappointed that it has been delayed so many times, but, in the end, I cannot force them to release something just because I want it. True patience really is when you learn to wait beyond when you thought you ever would have to wait. So, I know I just have to be patient right now. I can complain, but all that does is demonstrate that I have not learned to be patient. After all Dish is not trying to con me or steal from me. They have simply missed ESTIMATED release dates. They no doubt lose more from this than I do.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

sleepy hollow said:


> Well said. I agree completely. There certainly seems to be a disproportionate share of "complainers" prowling the Dish forum. Of course those who have no complaints are not likely to post. So, just like bad news always sells better than good news, complaints will appear to taint a product or whatever beyond what is probably deserved.
> 
> For example, I personally am most eager to order a 921. I am disappointed that it has been delayed so many times, but, in the end, I cannot force them to release something just because I want it. True patience really is when you learn to wait beyond when you thought you ever would have to wait. So, I know I just have to be patient right now. I can complain, but all that does is demonstrate that I have not learned to be patient. After all Dish is not trying to con me or steal from me. They have simply missed ESTIMATED release dates. They no doubt lose more from this than I do.


Can I get an AMEN!

AMEN!


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

BobMurdoch said:


> Can I get an AMEN!
> 
> AMEN!


I Remember when E* used to advertise dbsforums.com on channel 101 when they had Laurie Farkas actually talking about E* news. Now we get the same braindead remote control demo all day every day (they should use that in Guantanomo as a way to get Al Qaida operatives to talk). You'll never hear E* refer any customer to us or our ilk anymore now with the venom being thrown around here.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

This is another reason why Dish needs to keep all announcements about new receivers , super dish, locals etc to themselves untill they are ready to be delieverd to the public. 


Being so open with their company is what leads some people to be disappointed with the delay of the new receivers and the technical problems with Superdish. Maybe they should just be more like Directv and keep all this info to themselves and then the public couldn't get upset with such Great Expectations. Of course with some people on this board , then they would ***** about the lack of information about the new receivers , etc, etc. 

I think that this is evidence we live in an instant gratification society .


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

The two things that have suprised me about this poll are the fact that there were as many Satisfied responses for people who've owned previous PVR's, and the fact that there are as many "totally disastisfied" responses from people who've never owned PVRs.

Other than those two points, the poll is about what I expected, that the majority of the "satisfied" house lies in the "Never owned another PVR" camp. In fact, the majority of the respondents have never owned another PVR. That is not very suprising, as the 721 is great when compared to a VCR, all the problems aside.

That's both good and bad from a couple stand points. At least people are getting the idea behind PVRs and loving them... which means that we'll see more *free* PVR implimentations in the future from other companies, because there is an obvious market, and it's gaining mind share.

But the downside currently with Dish is the fact that they have no impeteous to fix the problems at this time. People are so wowed by the fact that a PVR is so much better than a VCR, they are more than willing to put up with the quirks and problems... because even the problems are better than a VCR that's working perfectly. So why put time and money into fixing a problem the *majority* of the consumers don't even know is so horribly broken.

I guess it comes down to being a responsible company and looking towards the future, instead of just the immediate bottom line. 

I use to love Dish and be a huge proponent of them, reccomending them to all my friends, etc... but after this whole 721 fiasco, I don't do that anymore, and I've actually reccomended people check out the DTV deals, even though I despise Hughes with a passion. I don't have much faith that Dish will "do the right thing" anymore, and instead of being customer oriented, like it use to be, it seems to be totally money oriented.

BTW folks... I just checked out Voom. They are broadcasting! I'm seriously thinking about switching to Voom at this point. The two things stopping me right now is the fact that they don't carry the Sci-Fi channel, and they don't have a PVR. If those two issues were solved, I'd be on the Voom bandwagon right now in spades.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Admin note:

Some posts in this thread were moved to Potpourri because they were off topic:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=20670


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Inaba said:


> Other than those two points, the poll is about what I expected, that the majority of the "satisfied" house lies in the "Never owned another PVR" camp.


I read it differently. Of the 721 owners who have owned other PVRs, the satisfied percentage is basically the same as the satisfied percentage of owners who have never owned another PVR. In fact, the "totally satisfied" percentage is higher among those who have owned other PVRs.

This is obviously not a meaningful sample as has been pointed out, but if we are going to give meaning to the results, they say that the 721 holds up well in comparison to other PVRs.

I think where the poll is flawed, is that it is probably not a good comparison for those of us who have owned other PVRs, because I'm guessing that very few of us, if any, owned a two-tuner unit. I'd say that most of the other PVRs were either 501/8 units or SA Tivos or Replays.

I had a SA replay, and I voted Somewhat satisfied. I'm dissatisfied with the loss of name-based recording and the inferior software interface, but the double tuners makes up for a lot, and I haven't had very many bugs.

Dennis


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Once again to boil things down.....

We all determine which service to go with based on a combination of factors. Price, Programming, Programming unavailable elsewhere, equipment reliability, service, picture and audio quality, and a subjective grade of where the company is going for long term stability and capacity for growth.

Yes, D* has more reliable receivers. But E* has better HD PQ and looks to continue to do so until D* can launch additional birds to help increase capacity. D* has the out of market NFL and Baseball in exclusive contracts, while E* has a half dozen additional pay TV movie channels that D* doesn't. D* has better quality local channels due to fiber feeds vs. OTA retransmission, but E* has CBS-HD. D*'s PVRs are less buggy, but they tend to have much smaller hard drives.

Basically, we get to choose bundle "A" (D*), bundle "B" (E*), bundle "C" (Cable), or bundle "D" (Voom). We can't mix and match desired features (although you COULD get a standalone Tivo for E*, why would you want to considering the PQ hit you will take). We can whine and hope that someone is listening, but all our rants will do nothing to change the direction of the providers. Only raw numbers will. Raw numbers of subscriber adds, churn, and avg. revenue per subscriber will affect more change by influencing executive decision making more than all of the Bob Hallers and Inabas EVER will.

I chose E* because the bundle, taken as a whole, was most desirable to me. I would love to have less buggy receivers, NFL Sunday Ticket, Extra Innings, and Tivo, but I am unwilling to give up CBS-HD, HBO Comedy, Showtime Beyond, Superstations, and Distant Nets to get them. Ditto for HD PQ.

Voom has several attractive features with the additional HD content, but the lack of a PVR, lack of essential channels, and lack of future capacity all kill it for me.

So splitting hairs like this topic does is accomplishing nothing. Most of us are using the providers that we do for the "big picture". Buggy PVRs may chase a few away, but cheaper upfront costs with greater HD capabilities will reel others in. We can hope, (or ***** and moan) but it will do nothing to influence change, unless the CSRs are blitzed with phone calls (which normally won't happen unless SERIOUS issues occur like the dreaded Dishplayer fiasco 2 years ago.). The buggy PVRs make up only 10% of E*'s subscribers (and probably less than that as I own 3 of the million they have in use and there are many other multiple PVR households like mine) The rest of the masses are predominately using 4900s or 301s which are less prone to problems than their hard disk based brethren.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Great post Bob.. I agree completely!!!


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

BobMurdoch said:


> Once again to boil things down.....
> Raw numbers of subscriber adds, churn, and avg. revenue per subscriber will affect more change by influencing executive decision making more than all of the Bob Hallers and Inabas EVER will.


Good post Bob especially the paragraph above. I have voted with my wallet and I wish others would do the same. This would have much more lasting effect on what providers do in the long run.


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## chris_h (Mar 19, 2003)

I put "not satisfied" because my 721 failed to record my one "must see" show, Monday Night Football. I usually watch it live OTA for HDTV, and was surprised to not see the record light on. 

While I agree with Bob's points about buying based on a package, I also view these forums as a method for users to communicate to the providers the advantages and disadvantages of their package. Such feedback can be a road to the "total package."


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Except I don't see the providers coming here due to the 99% "noise" ratio that obscures the 1% of useful info.

I saw Charlie frown once on a chat when someone mentioned the internet forums as if he was waving off our opinions. After seeing the constant bickering and beating of dead horses, it doesn't surprise me.

I fear we have lost most or all of our influence with them. If we are to create change, I think we will have to email or call them directly until our voices reach a certain number to justify their changing direction on an issue.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

BobMurdoch said:


> Except I don't see the providers coming here due to the 99% "noise" ratio that obscures the 1% of useful info.
> 
> I saw Charlie frown once on a chat when someone mentioned the internet forums as if he was waving off our opinions. After seeing the constant bickering and beating of dead horses, it doesn't surprise me.
> 
> I fear we have lost most or all of our influence with them. If we are to create change, I think we will have to email or call them directly until our voices reach a certain number to justify their changing direction on an issue.


I said this a bunch of times and every time I just got a bunch of "E* reads this forum!" replies. If you owned a company who are you going to listen to - a bunch of people whining on a chat board or customers that complain to you directly?

Dennis


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

I can believe the techies reading it looking for clues in attempting to trace down bugs, but I don't see management giving two licks about what we have to say.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

BobMurdoch said:


> I fear we have lost most or all of our influence with them. If we are to create change, I think we will have to email or call them directly until our voices reach a certain number to justify their changing direction on an issue.


You are correct. That is always the best way to do things. DBSTalk was never meant to be a conduit to Dish or DirecTV. Just a place to discuss the issues and post any information they decide to share with us. The fact that they read these forums is just a side effect.

Dish probably doesn't like online forums because they have no control over what is posted. Of course, I wouldn't have it any other way. 

I guarantee that they do read these forums. I see several IP addresses every day from Dish Network. Whether or not we have an effect remains to be seen but that's not our primary purpose.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Thanks for the info, Chris. I always wondered if they DID look here. Now we just have to figure out whether the visiting IPs are from the tech dept. or the executive wing.

Where's a good E* mole when you need him?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Most likely you will not see the IP of the orginating machine if it is behind a corporate firewalll, but coll thought.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2003)

BobMurdoch said:


> Thanks for the info, Chris. I always wondered if they DID look here. Now we just have to figure out whether the visiting IPs are from the tech dept. or the executive wing.
> 
> Where's a good E* mole when you need him?


Both


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

I'm not sure how this poll relates to demographics, since the demographics of a particular forum such as this are narrow, and the poll questions don't discern anything even remotely demographically different about the respondents. Even if it did, the sample is skewed heavily in several directions that would prevent it from yielding useful results, demographically speaking.


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