# Curious Question: HD Channels - why believe Directv and not Dish?



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I've been thinking about this for awhile now, and haven't been able to come up with a good answer for it.

When Directv announces they will have local HD channels for most major markets online and available for subscribers by summer 2005, why does everyone seem to believe that statement at face value without question? Is it because Directv rarely ever announces anything that's coming? Is it because Dish statements like this (which do happen much more frequently than Directv statements) usually get delayed, or never come to fruition at all? And because Dish "lies" all the time, then Directv must be telling the truth?

Also, everyone is making a very big deal about the national feeds of the HD networks on Directv (especially with the ABC feed going live "soon"), but no one ever mentions that you have to live in an O&O market AND not be claimed by any other stations in their White zones in order to qualify to receive those channels. Until the end of the day tomorrow (Dec 31st), those White Zone stations will probably grant you a waiver. After the end of the day tomorrow, good luck getting one...(if you haven't read the fine print in the new SHERVA law, you really should...getting a waiver under the new system is going to be almost completely impossible...) So, all of that combined together represents a very small percentage of the country able to qualify for all of the network HD feeds. Some will qualify for some of them, but certainly not all of them. 

So, why is it such a huge deal to everyone? Is blind loyalty to Directv coming into play here, or is it blind disloyalty to Dish that's really the driving influence? Some of both? Something else entirely? 

Note, I really would prefer this discussion remain about programming and the respective companies, and not become about hardware. We all know how the hardware compares. I'm just very curious about the prevailing attitudes about the upcoming programming.


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## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

You bring up a good point Mark.

I think some of it has to do with one side of subscribers bragging that they have something that the other side does not have. It doesn't matter if they personally qualify, just that they can say that the other side doesn't have it.

Both sides "power users", which frequent these boards, are proud and loyal to their providers (look how few of us have actually left Dish during the 921 fiasco).

The reality is both providers have to match what the other one does. That is business. Dish has a huge amount of space available or soon to be available so I suspect that they will have the network feeds up soon.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

It does seem as though DISH Network is evaluating the possibility of using Ka band for video services. In fact, it may be a coincidence, but the proposed testing periods of AMC-15 Ka band at 117 and 113 would end about the time that the announced launch of CSN Chicago is scheduled. Maybe some HD in the works for 105.

Of course, the fact that DirecTV has had some recent HD activity and has announced some future activity with approximate dates while DISH Network has no recent HD activity or any known projections of real activity is a bit of a bummer to say the least.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

This is an interesting question. To me, it's not about programming, it's not even about hardware (at least not for the masses), it's all about marketing in a pretty tough industry. I gotta believe that the vast majority of E*, D*, and cable subscribers aren't running 61" HDTVs. Most of the sets are probably 30 somethings. 

But whether you can take advantage of high end programming or not, you wouldn't want to buy into a company that only had yesterday's technology, would ya???


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I've been thinking about this for awhile now, and haven't been able to come up with a good answer for it.
> 
> When Directv announces they will have local HD channels for most major markets online and available for subscribers by summer 2005, why does everyone seem to believe that statement at face value without question?


If it helps, I don't. 

Though I'll tell you, statements from Dish about "compelling content" and such have really turned me off, and made it that much easier to push me away from Dish.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I used to think the Charlie Chats, Tech Chats and open discussion of what's going on at Dish was a good thing. 

I now think a lot of the promises and speculation that have not come true have hurt Dish and driven some folks away.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

I for one could care less about either provider having Network HD and locals. I can get them just fine with an antenna so none of the DirecTV add ons phase me. I also don't care if their equipment might be more solid, but as far as promotions go I think (like myself) most people are just happy with the free equipment from dish where at D* you still have to pay $50 for tivos and $300 for HD tuners. this is why I will never be a D* sub.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I guess for me it's that I know these new DirecTV satellites are being built or will be built. That's the facts anyone can look up. Thus unless there is a disaster on the launch pad or in orbit, what DirecTV wants to do with them (HD locals and nationals) *will* come true. Thus is makes me excited.

As for the HD networks rolling out I look at it this way: It is basically the start of the HD locals roll out. Think about it. These *are* the HD locals for the 2 largest TV markets. As a bonus those in O&O areas or with waivers also qualify. With most of the networks up to 40%+ of the country qualify as O&O so many do get to benefit. I personally do not benefit as none of my networks are O&O and I get them all via OTA just fine (except a flaky CBS). But just because I don't benefit doesn't mean I feel cheated in some way like many others do. I have plenty of TV to watch, believe me. In fact I haven't even turned the TV on in nearly a week other then football on Sunday (shudder the thought). So I guess my life isn't ruled by the great and almightly TV that I get all upset because DirecTV added FOX-HD which I can't get. Big deal.

I can't comment really on Dish since I don't have Dish and never will unless they get Sunday Ticket. If I believe Charlie or not really doesn't matter.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Why believe D* and not E*, just look at the track record of the two companies with keeping their promises. Didn't D* say they would double their HD channels in 2004 and they did. OK maybe folks aren't happy with the channels they added but they did keep their promise. I guess you could say E* kept their promise also by only adding one new channel in 2004, all the other HD channels out there are not compelling in E*'s view.

E* announced 50 HD channels on Superdish and the 105 slot, where are they? E* announced NBR on their PVR line, now it's only a couple PVR's. They announced DishWire on the 921 to dump to select D-VHS decks, nope we changed our minds. Even simple things like saying the 811 had the capability of an unlimited number of favorites then keeping the same limit that the 6000 had was a lie. I know this is discussing hardware but it also goes to your point about which company are you going to believe. Too many times E* has said one thing and then not done it, they are not to be believed.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

I think the problem is that Dish has had a long history of announcing items then:

1. Delays forever the actual arrival of the item. They need to learn to add 9 months to their announcements and then hopefully be early.

2. Many promised features do not work right for quite a while (if ever)

On the HD front you have a case where DIRECTV is saying we are going to serve every DMA with HD LIL and look we have our satellites almost ready to launch and here is the launch time frame for the first satellite. As far as national channels DIRECTV is throwing around large numbers like capacity for 150-300 and seems to be adding some new ones (although the PQ is really going to be bad until they get the new satellites up).

What is Dish's response? None on HD LIL. Do they have a plan? Probably, what else are they going to do with the tremendous amount of satellite space they have been securing. National HD? Well we probably will not add anything until the end of 2005 and it will probably be MPEG-4 and your current boxes will be useless and we will have to get back to you on an upgrade plan. We were going to have room for 50 HD channels on 105 but we never got around to it (I know the satellite had technical problems) and used up the satellite space for LIL.

What is the public going to think given the above?

I personally think/hope that Dish has a secret plan to launch LIL HD to the top markets using all the Ka spots they have on AMC-15 and AMC-16 combined with Ku-FSS on AMC-16. I am hoping they use the increased capacity on AMC-15 to start adding a lot more HD national channels. I think they will do this before DIRECTV can start their HD LIL rollout. I also think they are trying to work out a deal with VOOM, but that it may be a long time coming since the time has passed where an easy deal could have been made, and the time to transfer licenses and get a deal approved would take too long.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I don't believe ANY of them until I hear from the good folks here that the channels are being received. I haven't left E* yet because I shot my wad buying a $1000 921. So it comes down to fool me once, shame on me ...

So, I'm in a waiting mode to get what my 60" (not 61"  ) HDTV needs. I'll probably have to move to my cabin in Park County soon.  (such a stupid thing) That would put me in the Denver DMA, but a totally white area that will always be that way.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

Phil T said:


> I used to think the Charlie Chats, Tech Chats and open discussion of what's going on at Dish was a good thing.
> 
> I now think a lot of the promises and speculation that have not come true have hurt Dish and driven some folks away.


People who don't know about this board probably are happy. 85% of customers.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

Exactly, and it's probably more like 95% Most of the people on these boards and also the ones that actually watch the chats are the whiners, so if you don't think outside of the box, the problems you think Dish has will be largely skewed


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Paul Secic said:


> People who don't know about this board probably are happy. 85% of customers.


Registered members of all DBS-related boards represent probably <1% of all DBS subscribers.

For the other 99%, ignorance is bliss.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

E* USED to put up the URL of dbsforums.com back in 2000 (which is how I discovered the satellite boards). After the constant E* bashing on that site drove me away, I landed here (and I also frequent Scott's board as well). E* NEEDS to point users towards these sites as they often can steer people away from a lot of the problems (rebooting after new downloads, is the problem on their end or mine during an outage, etc.) that CSRs are dealing with now. 

For whatever reason, D* flaws are minimized around here while E*'s are amplified. (Yes, E* hypes more vaporware than Microsoft while being just as reliable, and Charlie the poker player never seems to want to tell the truth anymore while on camera, BUT few mention the slow guides, compression artifacts, and missing movie channels that E* has and D* doesn't. I'd love to switch to D* to get Sunday Ticket and the Distant HD feeds, but I don't want to give up HBO Comedy and SHO Beyond to get them).


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Interesting responses so far. I get the sense that so far the prevailing forums sentiment is that E* continually makes announcements, and then fails to follow through. D* doesn't make announcements very often (2 in the last year?), and so far as delivered on one of them. And, D* has put it out there very specifically for all to see that the satellites are being built and talked about what they will be able to do, and what will be put on them (HD locals). On the other side, E* has been stockpiling a great deal of bandwidth (for lack of a better term off the top of my head) for the past few months, recently launched a bird, and has at least one (?) more under construction now as well. But, E* hasn't said anything about HD plans, execpt a very general statement that HD channels are going to take off "around this time next year", and has talked about going to MPEG4. 

OK, here's another rhetorical question to add to the mix here - do you think it's possible that Charlie is starting to get a little gun-shy about making specific announcements about what's coming on the HD side *because* of the past failures (HD on 105 with superdish) and delays? And, because of this, he's now taking a more cautious public approach to this? Or, do you think he (really meaning his company) is out there flailing around without a plan? 

Or, how about this question: Is there really enough information out there about forthcoming events to justify churning from E* to D* based on claims of what's coming? 

I guess really what I'm trying to get a handle on is this: three or four years ago, the users at DBSForums seemed to be very positive towards E*. Then the entire Dishplayer fiasco happened, and since then, they have shifted towards being much more postive towards D* and much more negative towards E*. Three years ago when DBSTalk first came on the scene, the prevailing feeling seemed to be much more positive towards E* (possibly because the E* supporters left Dan and came over here). I look at it now, and it seems to me that DBSTalk users are generally trending towards being much more negative about E* (with some positive trending towards D*, but not nearly yet to the extent of what happened at DBSForums). I'm not including Scott's site in this comparison yet because his site hasn't been around long enough to really talk about trends yet, although I would probably say just from reading over there that it started out somewhat positve about E* and has shifted to very negative about E* over the last few months.

There's no doubt that E* has made some serious mistakes in the last 3 years. But, I haven't paid enough attention to D* to be able to say that they have not only avoided the mistakes, but also made significantly positive accomplishments. Am I wrong in thinking that the negative trends towards E* are mainly because of the mistakes that they have made, and not because of the accomplishments of D*?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> ... OK, here's another rhetorical question to add to the mix here - do you think it's possible that Charlie is starting to get a little gun-shy about making specific announcements about what's coming on the HD side *because* of the past failures (HD on 105 with superdish) and delays? And, because of this, he's now taking a more cautious public approach to this? Or, do you think he (really meaning his company) is out there flailing around without a plan?


All of the above. Of course, many (including me), put Charlie's face & name on the problems. He's the boss. Is he making mistakes? Of course. Are his people making mistakes? Of course. Are they doing what's necessary to fix the problems? NO!



Mark Lamutt said:


> ... There's no doubt that E* has made some serious mistakes in the last 3 years. But, I haven't paid enough attention to D* to be able to say that they have not only avoided the mistakes, but also made significantly positive accomplishments. Am I wrong in thinking that the negative trends towards E* are mainly because of the mistakes that they have made, and not because of the accomplishments of D*?


No, you're right. D* hasn't shown me anything - YET - but who ya gonna believe?


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I feel that both providers have had their ups & downs. Remember when Charlie was adding at least one new channel a month? 

The D* folks did not see a lot going on during the years of the merger games.

Now Newscorp has had control for a while and is beginning to make changes. The perception is that Newscorp has the $$ and the connections (FOX and hardware partners) to make D* future very bright.

Charlie & company seem to be stuck in the same old rut. IMHO the 921 issues seem very much like the Dishplayer all over again (lets discontinue it and put our efforts into something else).

At a time when it seems that Charlie should be countering D* with future plans and announcements, the Charlie Chats seem to be the same old, same old.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Phil T said:


> At a time when it seems that Charlie should be countering D* with future plans and announcements, the Charlie Chats seem to be the same old, same old.


But that's a major part of the problem, IMHO. Charlie (or anyone at E*) announces something, gets the market place all set for these grand plans and then they just die with no notice or a wimper. And this is not the exception, it happens over and over at E*. So how can any customer, who watched the Charlie Chats or reads the internet trust E* to follow through on anything? Yea, the guy that has a 721 and never knew about the plans to add NBR isn't mad, he didn't know about it so he's not missing it. But the guy who decided to stay with E*, because Charlie said NBR would be coming to the 721, went out and purchased one and is now left holding the bag.

IMHO, everyone at E* should just shut up and not announce something until it's in the distribution channel ready for sale.


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> <snip....>
> There's no doubt that E* has made some serious mistakes in the last 3 years. But, I haven't paid enough attention to D* to be able to say that they have not only avoided the mistakes, but also made significantly positive accomplishments. Am I wrong in thinking that the negative trends towards E* are mainly because of the mistakes that they have made, and not because of the accomplishments of D*?


There's a big distinction between "mistakes" and publically promising something but not standing by that promise.
A) When you make a mistake - you admit it, apologize for it and try to rectify it. That's the honorable thing to do.
B) When you say you'll do something and then don't do it, then one of three things happened: 
1. Your intentions were good but circumstances beyond you're control prevented you from keeping that promise. So again, you also apologize and try to do the best you can about rectifying it. Thats also an honorable thing to do.
2. After thinking it over, you realize that promise was a mistake, in which case # A above applies. Still honorable.
3. You always had an unspoken contingency on that promise, in that if it turns out it's going to cost you more than you thought, you'll find a way to skirt out of it. So you say nothing, hope you gained more from making the promise than you lost from not keeping it and hope the smoke clears soon. That's a dishonorable thing to do.

There are long forgotten words like virtue and integrity that escape many people today - especially in politics and business. Some feel it when it's missing - some don't.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> There's no doubt that E* has made some serious mistakes in the last 3 years. But, I haven't paid enough attention to D* to be able to say that they have not only avoided the mistakes, but also made significantly positive accomplishments. Am I wrong in thinking that the negative trends towards E* are mainly because of the mistakes that they have made, and not because of the accomplishments of D*?


It's a combination, I think..... As one of the accursed E* pom pom waving apologists, I've tried to play counterpoint and point out the good with the bad, but it is getting harder to maintain a level discussion lately as every E* announcement is met with derision and a dozen insults for the "idiots" who don't jump to D*. Meanwhile, the sleeping D* giant has finally awoken and is starting to whittle away at E*'s strengths by announcing international channels and more locals, while also hammering at their weaknesses by adding the broadcast networks in HD and announcing massive HD local additions to begin in 2005 which puts the NAB into orgasmic throes while sticking it to Charlie who rubbed them the wrong way with their two dish "solution" which was just fine with me but not with them.... I agree that Charlie may feel that he has made mistakes by tipping his plans too early while they were still being baked, and then having to abruptly change direction when they run into problems (the firewire ports on the 921, the HD Superdish fumble, the addition of more channels, etc.). So now he has gone to the other extreme and is not saying anything, which, when juxtaposed with his previous openness just seems to make matters worse as we loyalists try to grab onto any positive word to keep us from jumping ship.

An open plea to E* execs, who I hope are reading this..... Give us something positive to lock onto. You are on the brink of a massive exodus, the likes of which you have never seen, if you combine a price increase, stagnant channel growth, a lack of HD channel growth (most notably the broadcast networks), and continued hardware failures (ESPECIALLY those particularly nasty ones where 0 sec. recordings, and other glitches delete some, or worse, ALL of our recorded shows). Morale is plunging out here and some REAL competitive channel offerings, hardware and software upgrades, and other positive surprises need to occur FAST.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

BobMurdoch said:


> You are on the brink of a massive exodus...


Do you really think so, I don't, at least in not large enough numbers to make someone in accounting ask what the heck is going on. People have show E* that they will put up with a lot, especially on the hardware side, so why would they want to dump E* now?


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

I think they are from the profitable, early adopter, AEP+ type subscribers. I agree the Walmart lemmings won't change gears, but they aren't getting rich off of that demographic. I see them becoming Baltic Ave. to D*'s Park Place if they don't keep up.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

RAD said:


> Do you really think so, I don't, at least in not large enough numbers to make someone in accounting ask what the heck is going on. People have show E* that they will put up with a lot, especially on the hardware side, so why would they want to dump E* now?


 People will put up with a lot - for a while.

Charlie has spent all of his goodwill and is on very thin ice.


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

E* has made considerable investment in providing International programming (and supposedly garnered a bundle of new customers as a result). It's now time for them to take some positive steps toward satisfying the folks who DON'T subscribe to the international channels. Perhaps, too, it's time for E* to reevaluate their suppliers of hardware and software. As to LIL HD programming -- I'd say "fuggetaboutit" for now, if you can get distant networks in HD. I'd much rather see the dbs providers concentrate on trying to make sense out of the new SHERVA law and get HD network programming to their subscribers. 
If E* choses to go with MPEG4 with their expanded HD programming, the new boxes that are required will no doubt be rentals rather than purchased items. I guess I can live with that. Let's not forget that nothing has been said about changing the existing HD feeds to MPEG4. If I recall, Charlie Ergen said in his last chat that existing HD would not be affected. 
As Mark pointed out earlier, D* is less inclined than E* to announce future plans. This has no doubt saved them a good deal of embarassment. It should also be pointed out that their STB designs are more conservative than those of E*. E* has taken a radical approach with their receivers, and in many instances, things haven't worked as planned, resulting in a huge outcry from angry subscribers. They need to take the threats to jump ship to D* or cable very seriously.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

BobMurdoch said:


> It's a combination, I think..... As one of the accursed E* pom pom waving apologists, I've tried to play counterpoint and point out the good with the bad, but it is getting harder to maintain a level discussion lately as every E* announcement is met with derision and a dozen insults for the "idiots" who don't jump to D*. Meanwhile, the sleeping D* giant has finally awoken and is starting to whittle away at E*'s strengths by announcing international channels and more locals, while also hammering at their weaknesses by adding the broadcast networks in HD and announcing massive HD local additions to begin in 2005 which puts the NAB into orgasmic throes while sticking it to Charlie who rubbed them the wrong way with their two dish "solution" which was just fine with me but not with them.... I agree that Charlie may feel that he has made mistakes by tipping his plans too early while they were still being baked, and then having to abruptly change direction when they run into problems (the firewire ports on the 921, the HD Superdish fumble, the addition of more channels, etc.). So now he has gone to the other extreme and is not saying anything, which, when juxtaposed with his previous openness just seems to make matters worse as we loyalists try to grab onto any positive word to keep us from jumping ship.
> 
> An open plea to E* execs, who I hope are reading this..... Give us something positive to lock onto. You are on the brink of a massive exodus, the likes of which you have never seen, if you combine a price increase, stagnant channel growth, a lack of HD channel growth (most notably the broadcast networks), and continued hardware failures (ESPECIALLY those particularly nasty ones where 0 sec. recordings, and other glitches delete some, or worse, ALL of our recorded shows). Morale is plunging out here and some REAL competitive channel offerings, hardware and software upgrades, and other positive surprises need to occur FAST.


Yea all 1% exudus. Heck 98% of TV viewer don't know what HDTV is and don't have the time to tinker with it, or care to.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Paul Secic said:


> Yea all 1% exudus. Heck 98% of TV viewer don't know what HDTV is and don't have the time to tinker with it, or care to.


 Wake up and smell the plasma.

Fully 20% or more of the people that are contacting my shop about getting satellite TV are asking about HD.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

BobMurdoch said:


> It's a combination, I think..... As one of the accursed E* pom pom waving apologists, I've tried to play counterpoint and point out the good with the bad, but it is getting harder to maintain a level discussion lately as every E* announcement is met with derision and a dozen insults for the "idiots" who don't jump to D*. .... An open plea to E* execs, who I hope are reading this..... Give us something positive to lock onto.


So, even you have a hard time believing E* any more, but want one more lie?

I was a big Dish booster until I began coming here and getting an HDTV and such. I think if you're cutting edge and wanting HD and the like, E* isn't the way to go. If you just want to watch TV, like most, and maybe have a digital VCR (which their DVRs are) then they're just fine.


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

When I first signed up with Echostar they had all the latest and greatest technologies. The 6000 reciever had just come out and it was a good receiver (it is getting a bit rusty but it is still good and reliable). The 6000 was nice, reliable, and high quality. Its only real downfall was that it was expensive.

Dish was also by far the lowest priced (at least in my area). I was able to cut $20-$30 a month off my monthly costs and got HD to boot.

Then the merger happened and Dish seemed to change. The next set of high tech receivers were all frought with problems (721, 811, 921). The 721 and 921 you can make excuses for since they were "new" technology, but the 811 not working right was just plain wrong when they had demonstrated with the 6000 that it could be done correctly. Dish went from trying to have the best and greatest channel additions to focusing only on LIL. They also kept raising the prices while cable caught on and started to actually lower prices at the high end in most areas.

Dish has gone from being a great system I could not recommend enough to people to a system that is overpriced, has no announce future, and does not have the channels that the cable company has now...

Dish has some time to fix this, not many people are going to jump in 2005. They have time to get their satellites in order, get a single dish solution for LIL, start HD LIL and add more national channels in both SD and HD to at least justify their new higher prices.

Innovations Dish could make:

1. Make the HD pack only HDnet/Movies INHD1&2 and lower the price down to $5-$7. Put all the new HD channels in the regular programming packs (like ESPN-HD in AT60, TNT-HD in AT120, and Discovery in AT180, or something like that and put new channels in the regular AT line ups like cable does). Yes I know that this is something Cable and VOOM already do, but it would put pressure back on DIRECTV.

2. Lower the mirror fees on boxes you have to buy yourself. Leave the lease prices at $5/month, but if you buy a box you should at least pay less than the lease. Perhaps AT60 is $4, AT120 is $3, AT180 is $2, and AEP is $1. Yes I know that this is "free" money to Dish, but getting people entrenched in their houses with 10 boxes is one way to sure keep them.

3. Launch all the HD channels they can (using SD105) and stop messing around saying they are waiting until then end of 2005. Right now they could launch Universal HD, Regional sports nets, Starz/Encore/Max HD, and the superstations in HD. They could boost their HD offerings up to VOOM levels.

4. Announce a launch schedule for HD LIL. They already have 2 Ka spot beam satellites in orbit, they have the hard part done, lets get a schedule out. Or at least say what they plan on doing with these satellites.

5. Launch a bundled internet service using all that ground based bandwidth they bought. This would help them compete with cable.


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

RAD said:


> Do you really think so, I don't, at least in not large enough numbers to make someone in accounting ask what the heck is going on. People have show E* that they will put up with a lot, especially on the hardware side, so why would they want to dump E* now?


Because even the most loyal have their breaking point. For some it may be the faulty hardware; other the over compression pq problems; some the lack of HD; and others maybe just being lied to. Since "E" has crossed each of these "ouch" lines and more, the "mass exodus" is a very real possibility. "Principles" still count for something with some people.


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## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> OK, here's another rhetorical question to add to the mix here - do you think it's possible that Charlie is starting to get a little gun-shy about making specific announcements about what's coming on the HD side *because* of the past failures (HD on 105 with superdish) and delays? And, because of this, he's now taking a more cautious public approach to this? Or, do you think he (really meaning his company) is out there flailing around without a plan?


 I think there has been a massive breakdown in communication between Echostar's management groups. (Management, Programming, Engineering, Marketing, etc.)

Charlie is a brilliant man (you don't become a billionaire by luck) who has great vision but sometimes speaks before the other management groups have had a chance to look over the vision. A couple of examples are HD on 105 (with the old satellite), spouting off to analysts about MPEG4 receivers, Dish being the leader in HD.

Charlie is doing what a CEO is supposed to do, have a vision of where the company is going. The problem is he keeps talking publicly about the vision before the other groups can implement it. That is the reason we are becoming very vocal against Dish.

I actually hope is does become a little more gun-shy about what he says.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

And for those following this thread, ESPN2-HD goes live tonight on DirecTV so they are starting to follow-up and add more HD now that Sunday Ticket is over.


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## bavaria72 (Jun 10, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> And for those following this thread, ESPN2-HD goes live tonight on DirecTV so they are starting to follow-up and add more HD now that Sunday Ticket is over.


E* is not making it easy for even the most ardent supporters. HELLO!! Anybody awake over in Denver?? Charlie, wake up!!!!!!! (really starting to get embarrassing).


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

Yes E* is dead, dead, dead. It truely is pathetic. D* has doubled the # of channels E* has in this month/dec alone!!


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

So D* has no problems with adding new HD programming, even though they announced today that their new HD locals service will be MPEG-4. Charlie?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

So, users that paid $1000 for their HDTivos are now in the same situation that the users that paid $1000 for their 921s. Both won't be able to tune new MPEG HD channels.

Will the HDTivo users come out in as great a backlash as the 921 users have?


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> So, users that paid $1000 for their HDTivos are now in the same situation that the users that paid $1000 for their 921s. Both won't be able to tune new MPEG HD channels.
> 
> Will the HDTivo users come out in as great a backlash as the 921 users have?


Maybe yes, maybe not as bad. One difference is that D* hasn't said that ALL new HD will require MPEG4, just the new LIL channels. So D* could still provide new national channels using their MPEG1.5 standard, such as ESPN2-HD, Starz-HD, etc where E* has said NO NEW HD without MPEG4.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

The press release also said that DirecTV would upgrade all current HD customers. What that means we'll see but it could mean a free box swap or perhaps a big discount for those with current receivers. Probably won't know for another 6-9 months though. I wouldn't discount a full free box swap since they have under 1 million HD customers. Not that many boxes to swap.

And yea, only the new HD channels on Spaceway look to be MPEG4. My guess is that once they do a box swap, they'll move all HD channels to Spaceway and be done with it. Might take a couple/three years to get there though.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

And that takes me back to my first question in this thread very nicely - you assume that Directv may or will swap out all of the existing HD boxes out there for new ones, eating all or a good part of the cost of that swap. Yet, most people don't make the same assumption about Dish, and a potential 921 swapout or tradeup program.

Why is that?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Probably cause DirecTV has a track record of doing it already. Locals now on 119? Well, lets get you that new Phase III dish and get you a new receiver to replace your 8 year old 1st gen RCA for....nothing but a 1 year commitment and maybe $15 shipping. They do it all the time. Heck, they gave me a $250 credit plus $20 programming credit for 6 months to get me into an HD receiver a couple years ago to keep me from going to cable for HD. They will do what it takes and with News saving up a few billion to do just this thing, makes sense. Do I think it will be totally free? I don't think it will, but I'd give it a 50/50 of being free.

No idea if Dish does free swap of equipment or not.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Dish has a track record of swapping out the Dish300s with Dish500s and even with Superdishes from time to time, as well as all of the necessary accessory equipment (switches, lines, etc). But, not with receivers so much, except for the special offer they ran on the 6000 there for awhile, and the deals they've run on the 811.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

I don't know if this is feasible, but is it possible to modify the 921s to handle MPEG4 via a Hardware/Software upgrade?

These things are glorified PCs (with open slots inside). Just throwing it out there......


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Hardware wise I do not doubt that Dish will have some system for HD conversion. I suspect that the method will simply be to rent you a new DVR for a montly fee (probably $5-$10) like cable companies do. As far as your 941 or 942 you will be able to enjoy recording current programming, current HD programming and OTA HD. You just will have to get a new DVR for new programming.

But, I thought the focus on the thread was HD programming and not really the concerns about the hardware. DIRECTV was demonstrating AVC MPEG-4 via satellite today at CES. This is what they have said the spaceways will use. DIRECTV has fairly clear HD plans laid out... HD LIL, possibly every DMA, 150 national HD channel capacity. They of course have not said what if any national channels they would plan to add... Dish has just had a vague statement that they will add more HD sometime in the fall and it will probably be MPEG-4.


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## bavaria72 (Jun 10, 2004)

Mike123abc said:


> .... DIRECTV has fairly clear HD plans laid out... Dish has just had a vague statement that they will add more HD sometime in the fall and it will probably be MPEG-4.


I really think this is the reason Mark. D* seems to have a pretty clear path forward, heck even SBC/Dish has a path, but E* itself - meandering like an old, tired river. Very frustrating.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

bavaria72 said:


> I really think this is the reason Mark. D* seems to have a pretty clear path forward, heck even SBC/Dish has a path, but E* itself - meandering like an old, tired river. Very frustrating.


 What bavaria said. 

E* could go a LONG way to easing the pain by doing nothing more than saying networks in HD will be MPEG-2 on the wings. IOW, just like CBS-HD.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

To fan the flames...

DirectTV didn't get ESPN2HD last night after all... so we're all in the same boat.

I'm disappointed that I don't have more HD... but, there isn't a lot more HD to be had right now. Sure, there are a few channels out there (not counting ESPN2HD which may or may not have really launched yesterday after all)... but there's not a lot of HD being broadcast that I'm not getting from my local affiliates at this point.

Maybe I'm lucky being in a good local market where I can receive and they are broadcasting available HD... but from where I sit, the differences between Dish and DirectTV are minor.

Checking both forums, I see people having much the same discussions about Dish and DirectTV and a bunch of people threatening to switch from one to the other for essentially the same reasons!


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## Bichon (Jun 5, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Interesting responses so far. I get the sense that so far the prevailing forums sentiment is that E* continually makes announcements, and then fails to follow through. D* doesn't make announcements very often (2 in the last year?), and so far as delivered on one of them.


Sometimes Charlie's errors are in our favor. I remember him getting on a Charlie Chat and saying Discovery HD theater wouldn't be available for months, only see it added about a week later on the day the channel launched. I've found that the information in Echostar press releases and Charlie's conference calls with Wall Street analysts are muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch more accurate than what he says on the Charlie Chats.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

That may have a lot to do with the SEC's imposition of stringent regs covering _"forward-looking" statements. In other words, Charlie's tendency to make wild promises has been restrained.

Bottom Line: Charlie chats no longer have compelling content._


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