# D* AT9 5-LNB and HOA Battle



## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

First of all I know this has been covered in several threads so far, but I wanted to know who has been successful in fighting their HOA over satellite installation.

I just recently received a warning from my HOA about the D* AT9 dish installed. I am part of a complex of Townhomes in Miami, Florida. HOA rules allow the installation of satellite dishes only along the side of roof (along the flat part, underneath the tiles) which I have done. I come to find out they recently passed a rule disallowing HDTV satellites (probably because of the size compared the the standard dish). I guess they are okay with a 20inch diameter dish but not okay with a 29inch.

I know the FCC is on my side, but who has been able to successfully fight this? If so, how far did the fight go? Phone Calls? Board Meetings? Court Cases?

Thanks!


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## TriggerDeems (Mar 1, 2007)

snipes007 said:


> First of all I know this has been covered in several threads so far, but I wanted to know who has been successful in fighting their HOA over satellite installation.
> 
> I just recently received a warning from my HOA about the D* AT9 dish installed. I am part of a complex of Townhomes in Miami, Florida. HOA rules allow the installation of satellite dishes only along the side of roof (along the flat part, underneath the tiles) which I have done. I come to find out they recently passed a rule disallowing HDTV satellites (probably because of the size compared the the standard dish). I guess they are okay with a 20inch diameter dish but not okay with a 29inch.
> 
> ...


You are correct, the FCC is on your side, and your dish is within limits. Print this link, take it to your HOA, and start there...

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Already a step ahead of you. I have the print out and plan on raising hell tomorrow over the phone. The only thing they can possibly argue is that the roof (or side of it) is not a common area, but by their rules and guidelines, that is the only place allowed to mount a satellite. Catch-22.

I know I'm right. I'm just curious in to how much it will take to convince them I am.

I'll keep you guys posted on what happens. Until then, I welcome any stories any of you might have had concerning this issue.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

They've opened themselves up by allowing dishes to be mounted on the designated portion of the roof. Unless their written policy specifically limits dishes to a certain size, they're bound by the FCC's regulations. And even if their policy does, you can likely fight them and win.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Yea, it looks like they have set a precedence. The AT/U9 is less than 1 meter. It seems to me that they can't pick and choose the dishes they allow if they fall within the FCC guidelines.


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## Reggie3 (Feb 20, 2006)

litzdog911 said:


> They've opened themselves up by allowing dishes to be mounted on the designated portion of the roof. Unless their written policy specifically limits dishes to a certain size, they're bound by the FCC's regulations. And even if their policy does, you can likely fight them and win.


They can not impose any rules greater than what the FCC has passed - period.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Thank you all for the quick and positive replys. Although the matter seems simple, I know I'm in for a battle with a stubborn board. I just today noticed a reminder posted in the common mail area stating that "HD satellites" are currently not approved.

I'll keep you posted as to what happens.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Technically speaking D*s 18x20 (triple sat), and most of E*s dishes could be considered "HDTV" dishes.

HOAs :down:


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

snipes007 said:


> Thank you all for the quick and positive replys. Although the matter seems simple, I know I'm in for a battle with a stubborn board. I just today noticed a reminder posted in the common mail area stating that "HD satellites" are currently not approved.
> 
> I'll keep you posted as to what happens.


Similar situation here in Santa Monica for a bunch of my clients... Eventually everyone told the HOA to go take a hike... And they stopped bothering them. They've always had dishes on the roofs of their townhomes, now they've all upgraded to the 5 LNB and the trouble started.

I've consulted with the same HOA on an upgrade of their MDU system for the "Tower" building... I went to a couple of meetings... The yelling and screaming over different issues was out of control... I will never live anywhere with a HOA.


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## GeorgeLV (Jan 1, 2006)

snipes007 said:


> Thank you all for the quick and positive replys. Although the matter seems simple, I know I'm in for a battle with a stubborn board. I just today noticed a reminder posted in the common mail area stating that "HD satellites" are currently not approved.
> 
> I'll keep you posted as to what happens.


If they're really that stubborn then just tell them to refer the matter to the HOA's legal counsel. You don't need to drag this out and make enemies, just nip it in the bud and get a conclusive action asap.


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

You could go in and tell them that if they disallow the AT9 then you'll have to line up five round dishes. 

You could also get a lawyer friend to write a letter for you.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Also ask them to clarify their defintion of "HD satellite dish". As RobertE points out, even older single LNB and 3-LNB dishes can receive HiDef channels. Obviously they don't like the bigger 5-LNB dish, but they cannot arbitrarily deny any dish that falls within the FCC HOA regulations.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

The one leg they stand on, in my opinion, is not much of one. They, by rules and regulations, specifically state that satellites can only be installed on the side of the roof. This is a common area, not mine, therefore not subject to the ruling. However by giving such a restriction, and not allowing the AT-9, they are denying me of my right to install the dish. Therefore making it illegal.

I am aware of one neighbor using a tripod mount, that was told it must be mounted on roof.

What do you think? Catch-22 huh.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

I don't think that's much of leg to stand on ....
On the one hand they specifically allow satellite dishes on the side of the roof, in a common area. Yet then they want to exclude "HiDef dishes", which, as we've pointed out, are not cleanly defined. Any of those dishes already installed can receive HiDef channels from at least the 101-deg satellite, and also 110/119 if they're 3-LNB dishes. I think you have a strong case.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

snipes007 said:


> I am aware of one neighbor using a tripod mount, that was told it must be mounted on roof.


Where was the tripod placed? Also, if you have a south-facing balcony or patio -- anything that could be called your "own" area -- you can put a dish on it. OTARD is very clear about that.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Neighbor had it on floor, more of a bucket of concrete than a tripod, but still not visible from outside. However it was found and she was forced to mount it up on the roof.

I know I can fight and install it on the patio but obviously would prefer to keep it in its current location. I'd hate to have to rerun all those wires that currently feed through the attic. Cables also cannot be visible, so they cannot be run along the outside walls. Current rules do not allow a grounding block for that reason.

At the end, I guess I have to convince them that they cannot discriminate against the dish as long as its meets FCC regulations, even if its in a common area. If they allow one, they must allow all, right?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

You have every right to put the dish on any part of the unit that is considered YOURS (including a patio or balcony). Other than for safety issues, they cannot dictate anything to you.

Put the dish on your portion of the property and tell them you will not respond to them.

that is what I did and I have my dish for over 10 years.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

That part is understood and well documented by the FCC ruling. However, I'm complying by their rules and mounting it where they want it to be mounted. In a common area. How does the ruling apply in that scenario? 

Considering they are allowing other dishes there, I don't see how they can legally discriminate against mine. Any opinions?


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

snipes007 said:


> That part is understood and well documented by the FCC ruling. However, I'm complying by their rules and mounting it where they want it to be mounted. In a common area. How does the ruling apply in that scenario?
> 
> Considering they are allowing other dishes there, I don't see how they can legally discriminate against mine. Any opinions?


The FCC ruling does not apply to antennas in a common area. You will get no backing from the FCC on anything mouned on a roof, outside wall, eave, etc. You might have a chance because other antennas have been allowed, but it is the HOA's roof so they can make the choices.

Was your neighbor's dish inside the building (you said "on the floor")? If it is not in a common area, the neighbor cannot be forced to remove it.

If you have a balcony or patio that has line of sight, there is no fight. You already won.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

They currently allow all "non-HD" satellites (whatever that means) on the roof eave. The neighbor's dish WAS within her patio, on the floor, and out of plain sight. We both face south, so line of sight is no problem.

What bothers me, why are they allowing 20inch diameter dishes in the common area but not 29inch.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Aesthetics obviously. However as has been clearly noted already, if they are "Not allowing HD dishes" then ALL of the existing dishes must be removed, because all of them are capable of receiving at least some HD channels.

Your points for argument are:
1. All of the current dishes used for both DirecTV and Dish Network are compiant with the FCC criteria (1 meter diameter or smaller).
2. Even an 18 inch round dish will receive some HD broadcasts, therefore if they are allowing no HD dishes, they are in fact allowing no dishes at all.
3. The precedent for dishe mounting location is already established.
4. If they don't want to listen to items 1, 2, and 3 above, you will seek legal counsel to assist with the issue.

Hopefully by the time you present argument 4 they will relent. 

Carl


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

If you can put a dish within a balcony that is a part of your rental property, it's my understanding they cannot make you move it. That is not considered common area. Especially if it's not overhanging or in clear view.

Do you have any pictures to post?

It sounds like you have a case no matter which you go.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

I understand what you're saying. If I could mount a dish on the eave instead of a floor mount, I would do it. What I'm saying is the HOA can regulate the use of their roof. They can not regulate the use of your patio.

Tell the HOA to make a choice. It's either going on the eave or on the patio. Period.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Pictures attached. The size difference is made more obvious due to the single LNB dish right next to mine.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I still don't think they can pick and choose which dishes they allow, since they have already allowed the common area to be used and it meeets FCC compliance. But, what do i know..i'm not a lawyer.

The pic on the left, balconies? If so, those are tiny.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

No balcony, more like a fake metal design outside the window. No floor there. I wouldn't even dream of mounting it there, that would be a bigger eyesore than they claim it is now.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I didn't think so.... but you had mentioned earlier a neighbor w/ balcony...i thought maybe ou were trying to show that was supposed to be it.
Yea...way to small...ugly and not safe...to much overhang would occur.


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## joe diamond (Feb 28, 2007)

Ya know,
A building of that size could live with a single dish or two on the roof.....Run sat lines to multiswitches in the same cable room I just know the cable company already uses. Disconnect the cable feed and connect to the sat line...........it is technically tougher than that (MDU INSTALLATION) but not as bad as dozens of dishes all over the place.

A thought,

Joe


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## d max82 (May 23, 2007)

Isn't that a slimline two dishes down in that picture? Its definately a 3 lnb if nothing else.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

d max82 said:


> Isn't that a slimline two dishes down in that picture? Its definately a 3 lnb if nothing else.


It's a 3LNB.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Well my first conversation with the Management Company went no where. Luckily there is a Board of Director's meeting tomorrow where I am planning on turning in the following letter. What do you guys think?

August 7, 2007

To The Board of Directors of (omitted)

On Friday, August 3rd, 2007, I received a violation letter regarding the use of an “unapproved satellite dish”. The letter mentioned no details other than the demand that the satellite dish be taken down immediately. After seeking legal consul, I have several concerns about the legitimacy of this request 

The satellite dish in question was installed in August of 2004, a week after I first purchased my unit. I consulted the management company at the time (omitted) and was informed that my current dish was acceptable. I was given a copy of the rules for installation by a person named (omitted), (or (omitted)). The request was approved but no paperwork was given to me. They stated the security guard would be informed to allow the installation to take place. I initially wanted to mount the dish in my patio area but was informed that this violates community rules and regulations. I was informed that all satellite dishes must be installed in a common area, at the eave of the roof above each unit. I agreed to follow these rules and paid for installation of the above mentioned satellite dish. Because of the placement of the satellite dish, cables had to be run into the attic and an additional charge (approx $250) was levied by the satellite company for the installation.

All was well for three years, as not a single complaint was made, nor violation given. Not one person approached me about the installation nor has anyone deemed it an “eyesore”. Now I am being told that my satellite dish is “not approved”. What was okay three years ago, is not okay today. Upon conversations with several residents concerning this matter, I come to find out that “HD Satellites” (which an extremely vague term) are not allowed by the community. Although you have rights to control what is allowed in a common area, the practice of restricting the satellite dishes to that certain area is illegal.

I have enclosed the FCC Regulation entitled “Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule” or “OTARD” which specifically prohibits any state, local, municipal or home owner’s association to restrict the installation and use of a satellite dish, one meter or less in diameter, in any exclusive-use area. Although I am aware that this rule does not apply to the roof eave, the association’s rules and guidelines, forcing installation of satellite dishes on the roof eave directly defies this law. Lying to tenants and informing them that patio installations are not allowed is not only deceitful, but illegal. 

What I would like the board to consider are the following items.

1 – I would like the Board to review the attached Federal Regulation and amend its current rules and regulations to comply with federal guidelines. This will include giving residents the option to install satellite equipment in exclusive-use areas.

2 – If residents choose the option to install satellite equipment in the common area like the roof-eave, the association must give specific guidelines on what is allowed. Understand that any installation will incur a cost to the resident, and removing and reinstalling equipment is wasteful and not in anyone’s best interest. Restricting “HD Dishes” is not acceptable language, especially since every satellite dish provided by DirecTV and Dish Network is physically capable of receiving an HD signal. Technically speaking, the community’s current guidelines would deem every satellite dish installed, as an unapproved satellite. I recommend restrictions be based solely on the satellite’s size or model.

3-Lastly, for existing residents who have been lied to about what is and what is not approved, and for those who have been unlawfully deceived and told that exclusive-use installations are prohibited, a choice should be made. 

-If the Board decides that these dishes are an “eyesore” and not allowed in common areas, the Board should allow the tenant to move the installation to any exclusive-use area and reimburse expenses involved in doing so. This should cover the cost of removal, reinstallation, patching of holes made to eave of roof and relocation of any cabling involved with the installation. It is only fair that the residents not be stuck with these fees because of the negligence of Board or Management Company who failed to comply with federal laws.

-Or, the Board can decide to allow, or grandfather, any existing installations on the roof eave, and deem them as an “approved satellite”.

I certainly feel that my requests are reasonable. I understand it is the Board’s main duty to create a positive environment where we can all live happily in homes that are well maintained and retain a high property value. I am willing to work with the Board and come to a compromise on this issue. I do not wish to see this issue debated any further than it has to, but I will not compromise my current rights nor be stuck with fees because of a mistake made by the Association. HD Satellite restrictions are not in anyone’s best interest, especially given the trend of higher quality services. Let’s embrace the future and allow premium services for our premium homes.

Thank You,


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

I would drop the bolded line in your #2. Reason being, to me it gives them too much power in saying what is or isn't allowed.



> 2 - If residents choose the option to install satellite equipment in the common area like the roof-eave, the association must give specific guidelines on what is allowed. Understand that any installation will incur a cost to the resident, and removing and reinstalling equipment is wasteful and not in anyone's best interest. Restricting "HD Dishes" is not acceptable language, especially since every satellite dish provided by DirecTV and Dish Network is physically capable of receiving an HD signal. Technically speaking, the community's current guidelines would deem every satellite dish installed, as an unapproved satellite.* I recommend restrictions be based solely on the satellite's size or model.*


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I'm on your side as i suggest this. I don't know what the current atmosphere w/ this current Board is. Or who has said what to whom and whatever. However, unless your legal counsel has said it's not a problem, you may want to remove the words lies, liar, and deceitful. It sounds a little confrontational. I know you want to play hardball, but this may immediatley make a bad situation worse.

Just my .02 I'm not a lawyer... just an opinion.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

I do need to play hardball. My conversation today showed me they have no interest in hearing me out.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I understand. Just throwing things out to be considered.

I would just have a new dish installed on your patio then. Do you hve ny idea how much that might cost.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Shouldnt be much, but Im trying to avoid the cost of doing so. Running the cables inside the house will be a pain. The current entry point is in the attic and all runs start there. Moving the dish downstairs will complicate things.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nice letter. Go get 'em.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

The entire DBSTalk community supports you in your efforts. Don't let them get away with dish discrimination!


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Thank you all for your help. This discussion has helped me better understand what is and what is not allowed. Im sure numerous people have gone through this battle before and I intend on joining in their efforts.

I will update this thread based on the meeting tomorrow where I intend to read and turn in the above letter along with the FCC ruling.

Thanks all!


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

snipes007 said:


> Thank you all for your help. This discussion has helped me better understand what is and what is not allowed. Im sure numerous people have gone through this battle before and I intend on joining in their efforts.
> 
> I will update this thread based on the meeting tomorrow where I intend to read and turn in the above letter along with the FCC ruling.
> 
> Thanks all!


Maybe some of the board members will change their mind in September when D* starts carrying HD channels that aren't available on their current cable provider :lol:

Also, it might not hurt to go knock on some of your neighbors doors that have visible dishes and ask them to sign a letter or petition of some sort supporting your position.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

PoitNarf said:


> Also, it might not hurt to go knock on some of your neighbors doors that have visible dishes and ask them to sign a letter or petition of some sort supporting your position.


Might be worth pursuing. If a majority of the tenants/owners/residents have satellite service then I would think you could achieve an ammendment to the policies or by-laws or whatever. Or, elect board members who will properly represent the majority interest (if that is the case).

Carl


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm not covered by any HOA, nor do I know much about them, but I do have a question. I thought I have read in many places here regarding installations that it is not a good idea to mount the AT9 and AU9 dishes on the eaves as the weight/load (with wind adding to it) are potentially bad, unless it can actually be mounted to a stud. I also don't know much about construction, but are there studs in the eaves that can be properly used for mounting these larger dishes? And if so, do those eave mounts allow for the inclusion of monopoles?

I could understand the HOA's reluctance to allow the larger HD dishes being mounted on the eaves if there could be (structural) problems, but if that is their intent, they need to be much more specific with their restriction language.

Just wondering.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

snipes, I absolutely support your cause.
But seeing your location as Miami, I think pushing the issue to mount this larger dish on the 2x6 piece of wood is a mistake. If I'm not mistaken, it looks like the base bracket overhangs the wood by a bit? And I see only one cross-arm, where there should be two.

I don't live far from you and you can bet within the next year or two we will see at least a Cat 1 hurricane. 75mph plus winds will tear that dish down by ripping the 2x6 piece of wood down along with it.

Then the association will turn around and hand you a bill for the roof repairs. The other residents will rally against you so they don't get stuck paying for the cost with an insurance claim.

You also have the added worry that when the dish and wood come down, the window below it doesn't have accordian panels and that might come down and smash through that window. Then there's interior damage to consider and again, more out of pocket costs for you.

That dish needs a better mount with both cross-arms mounted above the base to a separate surface. 
I support your cause but this mounting method isn't secure enough. Sorry to be negative on your plan as I support the cause, but you need to get a more secure location. Building side mounts right below the roof line wouldn't be out of the question. It will even protect against wind from the rear of the dish. Good Luck!


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## rirwin1983 (Dec 11, 2005)

snipes007 said:


> Pictures attached. The size difference is made more obvious due to the single LNB dish right next to mine.


Up, the person next to the 18X20/single lnb dish being harassed too? He has a phase 3 dish and thats an "HD Dish".


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## mhammett (Jul 19, 2007)

snipes007 said:


> After seeking legal consul


Did you actually speak with an attorney, or are you calling this board legal consul? I would not consider anything but a licensed attorney legal consul.


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## mhammett (Jul 19, 2007)

JLucPicard said:


> I'm not covered by any HOA, nor do I know much about them, but I do have a question. I thought I have read in many places here regarding installations that it is not a good idea to mount the AT9 and AU9 dishes on the eaves as the weight/load (with wind adding to it) are potentially bad, unless it can actually be mounted to a stud. I also don't know much about construction, but are there studs in the eaves that can be properly used for mounting these larger dishes? And if so, do those eave mounts allow for the inclusion of monopoles?
> 
> I could understand the HOA's reluctance to allow the larger HD dishes being mounted on the eaves if there could be (structural) problems, but if that is their intent, they need to be much more specific with their restriction language.
> 
> Just wondering.


Almost all construction is different, but studs are usually in every piece of construction, spaced 16" on center apart.

A monopole is a "cell tower" that is a single self supporting pole.

Why does anyone ever move into a place with a HOA?


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

HOA's are very hard to avoid in S. Florida. That being said, I avoided buying anywhere that had one, and the OP shows one reason why they should be avoided if possible.



mhammett said:


> Almost all construction is different, but studs are usually in every piece of construction, spaced 16" on center apart.
> 
> A monopole is a "cell tower" that is a single self supporting pole.
> 
> Why does anyone ever move into a place with a HOA?


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## Reggie3 (Feb 20, 2006)

snipes007 said:


> Well my first conversation with the Management Company went no where. Luckily there is a Board of Director's meeting tomorrow where I am planning on turning in the following letter. What do you guys think?
> 
> August 7, 2007
> 
> ...


I like the letter - with the recommendations of RobertE. You really have done your homework.

In the end you may have to make a decision to have the work done on the area that you do control and then let them sue you in court.

Best of luck


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## GeorgeLV (Jan 1, 2006)

mhammett said:


> Why does anyone ever move into a place with a HOA?


Well, you might be able to avoid them in older cities, but in place like Las Vegas 80%+ of all dwelling units are in some HOA, and I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are in the same ballpark in southern California and south Florida.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Nice letter.

If the board fails to respond, IIRC, the OTARD has a provision that lets you as a homeowner file a complaint against the HOA and the HOA is prohibitted from taking any action against you until the complaint is heard and a ruling issued.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

mhammett said:


> Almost all construction is different, but studs are usually in every piece of construction, spaced 16" on center apart.
> 
> A monopole is a "cell tower" that is a single self supporting pole.
> 
> Why does anyone ever move into a place with a HOA?


When you live in a multi-family building, you have common shared property so that's where the HOA's or condo associations come in.

That said I live in a single family home with an HOA but it's a really relaxed HOA. No antenna restrictions whatsoever. Even ham antennas permitted. Key is reading the docs before moving in. Not all are bad.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

mhammett said:


> A monopole is a "cell tower" that is a single self supporting pole.


The monopole mentioned in this case is a brace to add support to a dish. Usually two of them are used on the large 5 LNB dishes. Why it's called a monopole when you need two...


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## Goober (Jun 24, 2007)

bakers12 said:


> The monopole mentioned in this case is a brace to add support to a dish. Usually two of them are used on the large 5 LNB dishes. Why it's called a monopole when you need two...


Maybe to prevent any "bipolar disorder?"


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

There is a 3 LNB dish next to the Single one. Are they making him remove his "HD" dish?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

GeorgeLV said:


> Well, you might be able to avoid them in older cities, but in place like Las Vegas 80%+ of all dwelling units are in some HOA, and I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are in the same ballpark in southern California and south Florida.


Gotta love the Midwest then. 

My city's ordinances take care of most of things that HOA's try to cover. Pick the right city I guess. 

Anyway, being in Florida I personally would want to push to put the dish on a tripod on the balcony/porch area as it will be much more secure and easy to just take the dish off and into the house during the height of such a storm. I would not want a dish on a roof in hurricane country.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Nope, you don't. I have mine on a pole close to the ground, and I remove the reflector when a hurricane is coming. The neighbors don't, and get tweaked out of aim. Gotta admit, it is funny watching them try to re-aim by eyeball.



bonscott87 said:


> Gotta love the Midwest then.
> 
> I would not want a dish on a roof in hurricane country.


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## raoul5788 (May 14, 2006)

NR4P said:


> snipes, I absolutely support your cause.
> But seeing your location as Miami, I think pushing the issue to mount this larger dish on the 2x6 piece of wood is a mistake. If I'm not mistaken, it looks like the base bracket overhangs the wood by a bit? And I see only one cross-arm, where there should be two.
> 
> I don't live far from you and you can bet within the next year or two we will see at least a Cat 1 hurricane. 75mph plus winds will tear that dish down by ripping the 2x6 piece of wood down along with it.
> ...


You're absolutely correct, NR4P. Unless the bracket is bolted into the end of a roof rafter, it won't take much wind to tear the dish off of the fascia. Even if it is in the rafter, at most two bolts are in it. That's really not enough, especially with only one monopole in place. You should seriously consider putting it on your balcony.


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## Goober (Jun 24, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> Nope, you don't. I have mine on a pole close to the ground, and I remove the reflector when a hurricane is coming. The neighbors don't, and get tweaked out of aim. Gotta admit, it is funny watching them try to re-aim by eyeball.


You know I never thought of that. I'm originally from the panhandle and am used to the hurricane threat; but up here in the Norfolk metro area where I am now, the possibility exists but is far less likely. Our installer mounted it onto the studs of a window header with 6 lag bolts that I know will end up taking the house with it if it ever gets blown away, but tweaking the re-aim (or avoiding it) by removing the reflector is something I'll have to remember. Beats getting in line w/ everyone else getting theirs realigned.

There's not many days on this board that you guys aren't teaching me something new...


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## d max82 (May 23, 2007)

heres another tip. Take a black magic marker and run a line straight down the mount on to the pole. Afterward just slap it back on, line up your mark and tighten it back down.


I used to do this years ago when NASA came down on 119 and I only had the single LNB dish, one mark for 101' and one for 119' , plus a trace around the bolt for elevation.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

d max82 said:


> heres another tip. Take a black magic marker and run a line straight down the mount on to the pole. Afterward just slap it back on, line up your mark and tighten it back down.
> 
> I used to do this years ago when NASA came down on 119 and I only had the single LNB dish, one mark for 101' and one for 119' , plus a trace around the bolt for elevation.


With the 5 LNB, you would need a very fine marker. The beamwidth at Ka band is pretty narrow. It would certainly get you to a good starting point for fine-tuning.


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## Reggie3 (Feb 20, 2006)

I was the first to put a dish up in my HOA. I did tell them I was going to do it and the board that reviews plans gave me a very nice drawing to show how to mount it in the yard and surround it with landscaping. I ignored it and mounted the dish on my wall. 

I subsequently got elected to the board and educated them on the fact that the HOA rules that prohibited dishes and antennas were no longer valid. As VP of the board - lets say there was never a issue with Sat Dishes.


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## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

I wouldn't talk to the HOA's legal council, remember, they work for the HOA. The letter is actually a bad idea.

I'd approach it a bit different. I start with you got verbal approval and that the dish has been there for a while with no complaints. Next move onto the term "HD Dish". Kindly tell them you have DirecTV, not DISH Network.

I'd nicely mention that FCC law states what it states, which means you should be able to install the dish someplace else if you want.

At the end, I'd ask them what they would like you to do. You have tried to live there and be a pleasent member of the community (ham up how great it is). And that you really want to find a solution that gives you both a great outcome.


The reason I'd approach it like this, is it doesn't blame anyone. The HD DISH vs DirecTV thing makes you sound as stupid as them on the whole technology thing. And I wouldn't say a thing else about the term "HD DISH".

If that doesn't work, I'd hire a lawyer and file a suit of harrasment.


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## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

Also, do any of the board members have satellite?


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

It is truly horrifying to see how much power a single individual on an HOA board can have. It's not right, be it for good, or for bad.



Reggie3 said:


> I was the first to put a dish up in my HOA. I did tell them I was going to do it and the board that reviews plans gave me a very nice drawing to show how to mount it in the yard and surround it with landscaping. I ignored it and mounted the dish on my wall.
> 
> I subsequently got elected to the board and educated them on the fact that the HOA rules that prohibited dishes and antennas were no longer valid. As VP of the board - lets say there was never a issue with Sat Dishes.


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## tonyn (Aug 3, 2007)

IMHO perhaps the best soloution is to offer to help set up a distribution system that would allow several units to share one dish, whereby one 5LNB dish feeding a distribution system would mean one dish taking the place of several. Improving the aesthetics, as well as legal rows.

City Building and Safety Depts. require grounding. Supercedes any HOA rules to the contrary.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

JeffBowser said:


> It is truly horrifying to see how much power a single individual on an HOA board can have. It's not right, be it for good, or for bad.


Why is it bad if a member of the board ponts out to teeh rest of them that they are putting the HOA and all its members at risk of a lawsuit and them deciding to stop enforcing the unlawful section of the covenants? THis is doing the entire association a huge favor.

To the OP: If it were me, I would also consider sending them a bill for the additional $250 your install cost due to the roof mounting to prove a point.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

You miss my point. Look beyond the issue of dishes. Look here http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbcondocol0808nbaug08,0,2979378.column in fact - just one example from one day in my local paper. HOA boards are out of control.



Lee L said:


> Why is it bad if a member of the board ponts out to teeh rest of them that they are putting the HOA and all its members at risk of a lawsuit and them deciding to stop enforcing the unlawful section of the covenants? THis is doing the entire association a huge favor.
> 
> To the OP: If it were me, I would also consider sending them a bill for the additional $250 your install cost due to the roof mounting to prove a point.


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## Elephanthead (Feb 3, 2007)

These boards are so useless, that dish is no less ugly then the other dishes, you can either get an injunction to prevent them from removing your dish, or wait for them to remove it and sue them for damages. I wouldn't waste your time dealing with some retard at the management company.


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## nocaster (Nov 2, 2006)

The fact that there are two dishes are right next to this makes this whole matter somewhat absurd. Calling your dish an "HD dish" is just semantic hair splitting. Yes, it is bigger, but only appears that way when seen next to an older smaller dish. If not next to another one, the AT9 does not look any more unsightly or bigger than any other dish. A man who stands 5"10' looks rather tall next to someone who is 5"4'. If your dish happened to be alone I doubt anyone in the HOA would have even noticed.

The HOA should pick their battles wisely. There are only going to be more people wanting these dishes in the future, not less. I can see the need for an HOA where people have shared property. However, these HOA's loose their viability when board members try to use them as a means to exert their will on others. Good luck and I hope you prevail without too much expense.


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## mhammett (Jul 19, 2007)

AlbertZeroK said:


> Next move onto the term "HD Dish". Kindly tell them you have DirecTV, not DISH Network.
> 
> The HD DISH vs DirecTV thing makes you sound as stupid as them on the whole technology thing. And I wouldn't say a thing else about the term "HD DISH".


It doesn't matter what company it is, the physical object is still a dish.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

At the end of the day, the HOA has two options:

1) Allow any dish that meets the FCC guidelines of less than 1 meter; or

2) Ban *all* dishes from common areas.

As a home owner, I would point out to the board that if they force you to take the dish off the roof, then you are going to put it on your porch and they can't say a thing about it and if they do, they will be sued.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

So what happened here ? The OP was going to present the letter yesterday, I am dying to hear how it went....


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Any update? 

Or did the HOA bring out the mafia and have him rubbed out?


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Well good news and bad. The meeting held last week was only a violation meeting, so no directors were there. I still turned in my letter and explained my case. The management company acknowledged that the rules were illegal at one point and have changed them quite a bit.

Apparently the issue they are attacking me with is that "HD dishes" have a larger mast base and the roof eave is only big enough to attach two of the four screws needed for installation. They deem this a safety concern, especially with the amount of hurricanes we receive. I cant really complain too much about that ruling. I actually agree somewhat. They will allow me to relocate to the patio area but it will be at my expense, which sucks for me.

Im waiting for a final ruling, but that seems to be the direction it will go.

My new question, since I see me relocating the dish downstairs. Any one have any ideas on how to perform this install? Am I looking at a heavy-duty tripod like this?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=RON909

Also, I can't really open holes through the "common area" front wall. How can I get these cables into the house? Should I bother with having Directv due to install? Or should I take the time and do this myself?


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Yes, that tripod will work fine. You can also install a 2" pole in a 5-gal bucket of cement. A DirecTV installer *might* be able to handle an installation like this, but it's a bit out of the ordinary.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

I was planning on doing the cable runs myself and have them D* do the dish. The cables from the patio will be a pain unless done right (I still dont know what right is yet).

Should I go with quad-shield cabling? Any creative way to get these cables into the house? Directly inside the patio is the living room, not exactly the best place to run cables. Made even better by the fact I wont be able to drill through the outside walls.

This is exactly what I was trying to avoid. I'm still hoping they "grandfather" my decision and leave my dish up there. But I have to start preparing for the worst.


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

Isn't there a paragraph in the OTARD ruling about unnecessary expense?

You could use flat RG6 to get the signal inside.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

You may want to check if this eave mount may be acceptable to them.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SEVEMNT

I've never used one personally, but it should provide a stronger mount.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Unfortunately, OTARD has two very specific exceptions, one is where the dish is in common-area, the other is where there is a safety concern. I have to admit they have me there.

The eave-mount listed was an argument another resident had. I believe he is using something similar, so I'll keep an eye on his ruling to see what they tell him. He did mention to me that it still sticks out quite a bit, so he's sure they'll make an issue out of that. Also, the "flat RG6" is a good option to get the cable past the window.

Thanks for the advice as always guys! I'll keep you posted as to what happens here.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

If you do have to go the tripod route, will the allow you to run the cables up the wall and connect them to the existing lines? If they are run up the corner they would be hardly noticable. Even less so if they gave you some of the paint they used and you painted the lines to blend in.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

nope. No cabling along the exterior walls. Even the current setup isn't grounded because of that reason. Another safety concern with having them up in the roof eave.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

That's a roof-mounted tripod and it should be bolted in. Consider a non-penetrating roof mount. It's weighted down, so it would work on the ground. I've heard of people pouring concrete into buckets, etc. and sticking a mast in it, too.


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

NR4P said:


> snipes, I absolutely support your cause.
> But seeing your location as Miami, I think pushing the issue to mount this larger dish on the 2x6 piece of wood is a mistake. If I'm not mistaken, it looks like the base bracket overhangs the wood by a bit? And I see only one cross-arm, where there should be two.
> 
> I don't live far from you and you can bet within the next year or two we will see at least a Cat 1 hurricane. 75mph plus winds will tear that dish down by ripping the 2x6 piece of wood down along with it.
> ...


Don't worry even those rounds dishes blow down during a hurricane. I make plenty of money putting them back up.


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

snipes007 said:


> Unfortunately, OTARD has two very specific exceptions, one is where the dish is in common-area, the other is where there is a safety concern. I have to admit they have me there.
> 
> The eave-mount listed was an argument another resident had. I believe he is using something similar, so I'll keep an eye on his ruling to see what they tell him. He did mention to me that it still sticks out quite a bit, so he's sure they'll make an issue out of that. Also, the "flat RG6" is a good option to get the cable past the window.
> 
> Thanks for the advice as always guys! I'll keep you posted as to what happens here.


See if you can find a heavy duty J mount. They are disigned for tile,Metal, etc roofs.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

snipes007,

I don't have experience with this but have read on here that if you go the route of using flat cable to get into the building that you should keep a number of extras around for spares/replacements.


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Will this tripod work for a AT-9 or Slimline patio installation? I plan on placing in on the ground (pavers) so I will be able to bolt down the legs.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=RON1011

I need at least a 4-5 feet elevation to clear some palm trees in the distance. But I am unsure about the mast diameter being compatible with new dishes.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

snipes007 said:


> Will this tripod work for a AT-9 or Slimline patio installation? I plan on placing in on the ground (pavers) so I will be able to bolt down the legs.
> 
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=RON1011
> 
> I need at least a 4-5 feet elevation to clear some palm trees in the distance. But I am unsure about the mast diameter being compatible with new dishes.


Yes, it will work. But you need to supply your own 2" O.D. mast.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

I have used several Ronard tripods. They work great.
Some models now come with 2" mast for AT-9/AU-9 dish.

http://www.ronard.com/#newitems

Doctor j


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## tonyn (Aug 3, 2007)

How about putting all this legaleze away and offering to help the board set up a distribution system so that many residents can share one dish. The Zinwell WB68 will feed 8 receivers, sells for about $44, and is D* approved.

The selling point to the board is better appearance of the building than with the multiple dishes it has already allowed, less likely damage to eve fascia and less fuss from tennants.

However if 2 apartments had 2 dual tuner DVRs to feed that would max out that switch. A more elaborate Satellite Master Antenna distribution system is not all that complicated tho. If the buliding already has a MATV system in place the same wiring could be used, depending on how it was installed.

I can't see having an outside company come in and install a SMATV distribution system, as they will charge on-going monthly fees to each tennant plus act as a middleman between the tennants and D*, getting a percent of D*s fees. Couple of clever tennants could design and install their own system, perhaps even have the cost subsidized by the landloard to put the whole issue to rest.

I see elswhere that D* has made a deal with MDU, Inc. just such a company. I hope the day does not come where D* will only allow you to sign up with MDU if you live in a multiple dwelling.


Keep in mind the landlord had every right to restrict the size, weight and wind-loadof anything attached to the exterior of the building. The argument that since they allow 3lnb dishes they must also allow larger, heavier 5 lnb dishes will not wash. 

Tony


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

The board will not setup any communal dish and the residents will refuse any proposition to do so. This has been the case in the past.

My argument is that they at one time allowed that dish on the exterior wall, and now they don't. My argument is they refused to let me place the dish on my porch and forced me to put it in common area. My concern is how many times must I move the dish, rerun cabling, throw-away money because the HOA either go against the law or cannot make up their minds.


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## tonyn (Aug 3, 2007)

I wasn't thinking of a full communal dish. Just thought if mabye you got your neighbors on either side of you to go in on a multiswitch and told the board you would be able to replace 3 dishes with one larger one they might see the logic in that.

What is their objection to a communal dish? Cost?

Tony


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## snipes007 (Jan 28, 2007)

Yes, cost would be a factor. I am not in a condo, but as a part of a 300-unit series of townhouses spread out along a huge lot. I assume a communal dish at this portion of development would pose serious issues with setup/cabling. Either way, our maintenance fees are the highest in the area, the homeowners here would have a fit if it increased any. Even if it meant saving on another bill.

I've thought about sharing a dish with neighbors, but gotten anyone to bite. Either way, their concern, a legitimate one, is the size/weight of the dish. The clamp is actually larger than the roof eave, so it is not entirely secured. It has survived an entire hurricane season without issues, but thats not good enough. This is a safety issue in their minds.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Random thought:

Once D* moves all HD to the 99/103 slots, what would be the purpose of a 5-LNB dish? All someone in a large market like Miami would need is a smaller dish that can pick up 4 degrees of sky, not 20.

Will D* develop a smaller dish for the major markets who will have no use for the 110/119 slots?


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