# What will happen to SD locals in February 2009



## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

So we all know that analog broadcasts will cease in February 2009. My question is, will they drop ALL the SD uplinks of those channels and (hopefully) have the majority of them available in HD by then. If so, is there a way they can make the older non-HD receivers pull them in? It seems like this would free up a good chunk of satellite room to me. I know the SD versions don't use as much as the HD version, but still... there are so many of them and most of the content is being duplicated in HD. Any insight or opinions on Dish's strategy about this?


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

SD broadcasts on Sat will not be affected by the Feb shut off of OTA analogue stations. Don't expect them to go anywhere until dish has ungraded all its customers and equipment for a given market to get everything in HD, which could be many years from now...


----------



## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

How do you think they will be delivering this SD signal though if they are all digital? Will dish have to upgrade their recievers???

I understand people with SD only setups will not be affected that they will still have the Dish to downconvert everything to SD for them, but they will no longer have an SD feed for many of these stations, if I understand it correctly.


----------



## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Who cares ? Dish will work out down-converting details. It's just like the local cable operator.


----------



## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

scooper said:


> Who cares ? Dish will work out down-converting details. It's just like the local cable operator.


I don't care about the down-converting part, I care about the bandwidth being freed by getting rid of the duplicated SD channels.


----------



## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

CoolGui said:


> I don't care about the down-converting part, I care about the bandwidth being freed by getting rid of the duplicated SD channels.


Dish is busy changing as the sd channels over to mpeg4. That should free up enough bandwidth.


----------



## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

CoolGui said:


> How do you think they will be delivering this SD signal though if they are all digital? Will dish have to upgrade their recievers???
> 
> I understand people with SD only setups will not be affected that they will still have the Dish to downconvert everything to SD for them, *but they will no longer have an SD feed for many of these stations*, if I understand it correctly.


Actually they will have SD feeds but they will be all digital. That said, you've asked a very, very good question. I say this because I asked the same question late last year on my local avsform and received some interesting answers from a couple of techs working for the local networks.

One executive was retiring 12/31/07 and posted that he would be free to give more specific info after the Jan. 1. I forgot to get back to him but your question jogged my memory.

The question resulted in about 2 pages of posts, most from those working at the network level and believe me they were saying people on both the provider end and source end were scrambling to figure out exactly what to do. There were both technical and contractual issues which need to be dealt with. I believe it was the contractual area which my exec. was going to have more to say about.


----------



## Bobby H (Mar 23, 2008)

I see little problem with down-converting HD signals to 480p for viewers with only standard TV setups.

One of the main reasons why I see no problem with it is because lots of local broadcasters are already making various compromises to SD versions of their channels.

For example, our local ABC affiliate (which my TV can receive in 720p perfectly OTA) is doing a pan and scan cropping act for its SD broadcast. The cropping habit is made even more obvious by various logos in the lower right hand corner being cropped. There wouldn't be much harm in cropping a down-converted HD stream of that channel for 4:3 SD display since that's what viewers in this market are already watching.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Most digital stations will simply be downconverted ... either by DISH/DirecTV or by the stations themselves providing a SD feed. Per an agreement with the FCC satellite carriers are on a long timetable to carry digital HD channels in HD ... it all doesn't have to happen immediately in February.

Space will only be freed up when MPEG2 receivers can be turned off ... that won't happen for a while. Certainly not in the next nine months - even as the process has started it is going to take a while.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

CoolGui said:


> I don't care about the down-converting part, I care about the bandwidth being freed by getting rid of the duplicated SD channels.


And that bandwidth being made available is years away from happening, and in all reality has nothing to do with the Feb cutoff of the analogue spectrum.


----------



## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

James Long said:


> Space will only be freed up when MPEG2 receivers can be turned off ... that won't happen for a while. Certainly not in the next nine months - even as the process has started it is going to take a while.


I know the MPEG2 to MPEG4 conversion is another way they are freeing up bandwidth, but I assume you are bringing it up in this context because most of the HD locals are in MPEG4?

EDIT: I'm actually asking the question.... most of the HD Locals are MPEG4?


----------



## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

But the vast majority of Dish receivers out in the field are NOT capable of MPEG4. So, if DIsh wants to do it immediately, they need to replace the ones out there in current use on their dime, and not the customers. Or they can do it like they are, offer more and more that requires the MPEG4, and let the customers pay for them.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

The OTA broadcast medium situation has nothing to do with anything DBS.

It all comes down to whether the FCC and/or networks allow the DBS operators to provide their own downconverts. At one time, it seemed like the FCC was onboard with the idea for satellite but not for CATV. Chances seem pretty good that CATV will try to make DBS suffer the same limitations.

In any event, the MPEG4 issue is the fly in the ointment as receivers that would need to down-convert don't have the capability to decode the content, much less downconvert it.


----------



## eatonjb (Nov 21, 2006)

CoolGui said:


> I know the MPEG2 to MPEG4 conversion is another way they are freeing up bandwidth, but I assume you are bringing it up in this context because most of the HD locals are in MPEG4?
> 
> EDIT: I'm actually asking the question.... most of the HD Locals are MPEG4?


most OTA Local's are in MPEG2.. but that does not stop Dish or DTV from re-encoading them and thowing them up as MPEG4. so that issue does not matter..

but.. right now, all my SD Channels that come in as SD have a Digital (not HD) equilivant. so it comes in on the QUAM signal, and shows a 480i/p signal.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

eatonjb said:


> most OTA Local's are in MPEG2..


Actually, ALL OTA is MPEG2. They are pretty much locked in to that, because if they ever tried to convert to MPEG4 it would instantly make all HDTVs with built-in tuners immediately useless.... so unfortunately, OTA is locked in to MPEG2 for the forseeable future.

As you noted, Dish/DirecTV/cable can recompress with MPEG4 for their systems... but OTA is stuck with MPEG2.


----------



## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

Indeed... I meant HD Locals from dish, not OTA. I don't think I ever said OTA... The whole point I was making that they could free the SD channels and send the HD channels downconverted for those without an HD receiver. I don't even know if it's possible for them to push out software to do that, but surely not if the Dish HD locals are in mpeg4.


----------



## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

The main point here is that probably 75% of Dish Network receivers in the field are MPEG2 ONLY.

Dish cannot convert SD to MPEG4 without obsoleting ALL those receivers (estimated 12 million MPEG2 receivers). 

If Dish were to attempt to replace all the MPEG2 receivers with MPEG4 it would cost them over a BILLION dollars - not gonna happen real soon (that's a Dish Network SOON).


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

CoolGui said:


> Indeed... I meant HD Locals from dish, not OTA. I don't think I ever said OTA... The whole point I was making that they could free the SD channels and send the HD channels downconverted for those without an HD receiver. I don't even know if it's possible for them to push out software to do that, but surely not if the Dish HD locals are in mpeg4.


It is an idea that eventually will come to fruition... but it will take several years. There are millions of SD and MPEG2-only receivers in customers' homes... so the two major stumbling blocks are the sheer cost of replacing all of them AND the amount of time it would take to do it. There's just no way to do it quickly... so there will have to be a slow several year rollout.

In the meantime, Dish tries to entice customers to upgrade on their own to get the trickle going in that direction.


----------



## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Is it me or are the people posting in this thread all talking about different issues and confusing them into the same thing??


----------



## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

grooves12 said:


> Is it me or are the people posting in this thread all talking about different issues and confusing them into the same thing??


Yes, I thought I was the only one who noticed. But I have kind of given up trying to stick to my original point now. I was trying to see if I can close the thread, but I realized that I didn't have that capability. 

I blame myself as much as anyone. I don't think I explained myself well enough in the beginning.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

CoolGui said:


> Yes, I thought I was the only one who noticed. But I have kind of given up trying to stick to my original point now. I was trying to see if I can close the thread, but I realized that I didn't have that capability.
> 
> I blame myself as much as anyone. I don't think I explained myself well enough in the beginning.


I thought your original question had been answered... Dish can't just drop all the SD broadcasts because most Dish customers would be out in the cold without locals if they did that. Since the majority of receivers are either SD-only or MPEG2-only, Dish will have to keep SD channels (or downconverts of HD locals) uplinked until they get the majority of those receivers replaced... which will be expensive and time consuming, so don't expect that to happen for many years.

Dish will be forced to keep SD-channels or downconverts uplinked, and also add HD versions where applicable for new HD customers if they want to keep growing their base.


----------



## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

I guess what I was getting around to is that if the HD locals are in mpeg2 then it seems at least plausible they could update the software on the SD boxes to receive the HD channels and downconvert them internally. Anyway, I don't think the people with SD boxes are pointed at the satellites that are carrying a lot of the HD locals, so it's probably a moot point.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Via Satellite Dish is using MPEG4 for locals in HD ... and nearly all national channels as well.

If you're talking about diplexing a local OTA antenna into your dish feed and somehow making the DBS tuner tune ATSC OTA ... well that's a long shot. 

The newer MPEG2 boxes can see 8PSK transponders ... which helps ... keep the SD locals in MPEG2/8PSK and the last generation of MPEG2 receivers will see the channels. I want them to uplink entire markets in MPEG2 for SD receivers and HD channels in MPEG4 for HD receivers ... but the "tests" at 61.5° make it look like they are going to dump SD versions once the HD is available on the "Eastern Arc" service. Not a good thing.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

CoolGui said:


> I guess what I was getting around to is that if the HD locals are in mpeg2 then it seems at least plausible they could update the software on the SD boxes to receive the HD channels and downconvert them internally. Anyway, I don't think the people with SD boxes are pointed at the satellites that are carrying a lot of the HD locals, so it's probably a moot point.


As James said, the HD locals on Dish are MPEG4...

But, even if they put the HD channels in MPEG2 there is no software update they could do to the older SD receivers in order to allow them to receive HD channels and downconvert them. This would require way more processing power than they put inside these little boxes, since it would essentially require the ability to re-encode after decoding and cropping/zooming at the receiver level.

The SD-only receivers are always going to be SD-only... no way to upgrade them to be anything different... so only a receiver swapout of all receivers in the field would allow dropping of any SD channels after the corresponding HD channel launch.


----------



## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

Yep, I guess it was just wishful thinking on my part. I did hear from another site that Dish is starting a push to get rid of mpeg2 only boxes, but I seriously doubt they will be getting rid of SD only boxes anytime soon.


----------



## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> SD broadcasts on Sat will not be affected by the Feb shut off of OTA analogue stations. Don't expect them to go anywhere until dish has ungraded all its customers and equipment for a given market to get everything in HD, which could be many years from now...


It'll probably be longer because Dish has 13 customers, millions arn't going to upgrade for 15 years. Who knows?


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

CoolGui said:


> Yep, I guess it was just wishful thinking on my part. I did hear from another site that Dish is starting a push to get rid of mpeg2 only boxes, but I seriously doubt they will be getting rid of SD only boxes anytime soon.


Yeah, they do have a manageable number of HD MPEG2 receivers in the field that they can replace and then convert the rest of the HD channels to MPEG4 and help a little... but the bulk of their 13 million + customers have at least 1 SD-only receiver in the field... probably the actual number is closer to 25 million + SD receivers that they'd have to replace before being able to convert the whole shebang over and drop duplicated channels.

That said, there will be a "breaking point" where maybe if they get 80% of their customers converted they could go ahead and do a cutover and risk losing the rest of the stragglers at that point... but even that would be years down the road.


----------



## snowman (Nov 1, 2004)

I guess a bigger issue would be how is dish getting most of their feeds from locals now? Are all feeds to dish digital right now? How much work will they have to do to be ready for analog to be turned off?


----------



## homeskillet (Feb 3, 2004)

I know in Kansas City the local CBS (KCTV-5) the Dish Network "SD" feed is taken from the KCTV-DT transmitter. Before CBS moved the "EYE" logo when you would watch the KCTV-5 SD signal on Dish Network it would cut off the logo and sometimes you would see "CBS HD" in the corner but cut off.

What was really annoying was HD commercials, where the text would run off the sides of the screen. Basically Dish Network was taking the KCTV-DT signal and cropping it for SD.

AT&T U-Verse is doing this for all the local channels in Kansas City as well. They take the "-DT" signal and just crop it for 4x3.


----------



## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Paul Secic said:


> It'll probably be longer because Dish has 13 customers, millions arn't going to upgrade for 15 years. Who knows?


They will certainly be sending out SD signals for some time to come. However there is now a date by which they will be required to supply HD signals for LIL*, for those who have upgraded their receiver's to HD. Actually several dates, with 100% by 2013.

*depends on where broadcast, and the Must carry rules.


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

tnsprin said:


> They will certainly be sending out SD signals for some time to come. However there is now a date by which they will be required to supply HD signals for LIL*, for those who have upgraded their receiver's to HD. Actually several dates, with 100% by 2013.
> 
> *depends on where broadcast, and the Must carry rules.


I don't see how Dish (or DirecTV or cable either) could ever be required to carry HD LiLs when the local channels themselves are under no obligation to be HD.

The OTA digital mandate says all (with some exceptions) OTA must be digital only by next Feb... but many will not be HD. I see no way Dish could be forced to carry HD locals when the locals aren't under any requirement to be HD.

Dish *could* be required to carry the digital OTA by some point, perhaps, but I don't see how they could be forced to carry HD.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH (and DirecTV) will be required to carry the resolution available ... but it is phased in. It isn't 100% of all markets in HD in February 2009, but both carriers will have to start offering entire markets (all channels) in HD.

I haven't read the FCC ruling close enough, but I believe that would apply to ALL full power stations in the market. Low power stations could still be carried in SD at the whim of the satellite carriers.


----------



## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

James Long said:


> DISH (and DirecTV) will be required to carry the resolution available ... but it is phased in. It isn't 100% of all markets in HD in February 2009, but both carriers will have to start offering entire markets (all channels) in HD.
> 
> I haven't read the FCC ruling close enough, but I believe that would apply to ALL full power stations in the market. Low power stations could still be carried in SD at the whim of the satellite carriers.


What exactly IS the requirement for full market coverage for 2009?


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> DISH (and DirecTV) will be required to carry the resolution available ... but it is phased in. It isn't 100% of all markets in HD in February 2009, but both carriers will have to start offering entire markets (all channels) in HD.
> 
> I haven't read the FCC ruling close enough, but I believe that would apply to ALL full power stations in the market. Low power stations could still be carried in SD at the whim of the satellite carriers.


Very strange indeed... I wonder how the FCC can require Dish or DirecTV to carry something that the local channel isn't required to provide.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HDMe said:


> Very strange indeed... I wonder how the FCC can require Dish or DirecTV to carry something that the local channel isn't required to provide.


DISH and DirecTV are not required to carry HD unless the station provides it. It comes back to the issue of carrying stations at full bandwidth. If SD is all the station is doing then SD is all DISH/DirecTV has to carry.

And it appears I misread ... it is a carry one/carry all rule ... if no station in that market is carried in HD then all stations can be carried in SD.

(2) Satellite carriers must provide carriage of local stations' HD signals if any local station in the same market is carried in HD , pursuant to the following schedule:
...(i) In at least 15% of the markets in which they carry any station pursuant to the statutory copyright license in HD by February 17, 2010;
...(ii) In at least 30% of the markets in which they carry any station pursuant to the statutory copyright license in HD no later than February 17, 2011;
...(iii) In at least 60% of the markets in which they carry any station pursuant to the statutory copyright license in HD no later than February 17, 2012; and
...(iv) In 100% of the markets in which they carry any station pursuant to the statutory copyright license in HD by February 17, 2013.​Direct Broadcast Satellite Carriage Of Digital Television Broadcast Signals. - 3/27/08
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-86A1.pdf


----------



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> DISH and DirecTV are not required to carry HD unless the station provides it. It comes back to the issue of carrying stations at full bandwidth. If SD is all the station is doing then SD is all DISH/DirecTV has to carry.
> 
> And it appears I misread ... it is a carry one/carry all rule ... if no station in that market is carried in HD then all stations can be carried in SD.
> (2) Satellite carriers must provide carriage of local stations' HD signals if any local station in the same market is carried in HD , pursuant to the following schedule:
> ...


Now that's different than what I was reading in this thread. That doesn't sound at all like Dish will be forced to carry LiLs in HD. Rather it says that if they carry one HD then they must carry them all, if available, in HD. This makes sense as an extension to the must-carry rules today... but I can't see Dish being forced to carry a market's HD channels. They want to, I'm sure... but I didn't think the FCC would force them to do so... just force them to carry all of them if they carry one.


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

HDMe said:


> Now that's different than what I was reading in this thread. That doesn't sound at all like Dish will be forced to carry LiLs in HD. Rather it says that if they carry one HD then they must carry them all, if available, in HD. This makes sense as an extension to the must-carry rules today... but I can't see Dish being forced to carry a market's HD channels. They want to, I'm sure... but I didn't think the FCC would force them to do so... just force them to carry all of them if they carry one.


Yep, your right... There is nothing saying that Dish or Directv must carry all LIL channels in HD...

The law basically says that by Feb 17th, 2013, any market where a sat provider carries at least 1 HD station must carry every station in HD for that paticular market.... The deadlines are simply making sat slowly ramp up to that point... Not the same for cable. They will never be allowed to have one HD station on in a market and not have all of them available for that given market. No slowly but surely for them. They are carry one, carry all immediately because of their past foot dragging....


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inkahauts said:


> Not the same for cable. They will never be allowed to have one HD station on in a market and not have all of them available for that given market. No slowly but surely for them. They are carry one, carry all immediately because of their past foot dragging....


Cable doesn't have to find the bandwidth for every HD channel in the nation ... they only have to find the bandwidth for the HD channels within each market.


----------



## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

James Long said:


> DISH and DirecTV are not required to carry HD unless the station provides it. It comes back to the issue of carrying stations at full bandwidth. If SD is all the station is doing then SD is all DISH/DirecTV has to carry.
> 
> And it appears I misread ... it is a carry one/carry all rule ... if no station in that market is carried in HD then all stations can be carried in SD.
> 
> ...


That's interesting... I wonder if the 15% is # of markets or percentage of population coverage. The way it reads I would guess # of markets and in that case will likely hurt larger markets as they tend to have more HD channels than smaller markets do.


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The language is pretty clear ... markets. Fortunately the current threshold (until 2010) is 0% and I believe DISH and DirecTV have met that threshold.

It wouldn't make sense for DISH to turn off any HD markets to meet the threshold ... so those markets that get HD locals will benefit from the threshold. Sometime in the next 19 months 15% of the markets that have HD coverage will have every HD channel in their market.

Larger markets tend to have more channels period ... which has always been an issue. But what got added first, every channel in NY and LA or every channel in smaller markets like mine? ~20 channels in the LA market took more space to add than the eight in my market (which includes three non-full power channels). But they were still up years before my market had locals.

DISH will meet the thresholds based on the markets where they compete. Even though my market only has four full power HDs (plus two low power HDs and two non-HD DTV stations) I expect to be part of the 85% without all HDs in 2010. Then again, I'd be happy to be wrong.


----------

