# After 8 years, I'm done



## dp3 (Feb 1, 2008)

I think I'm done with DirecTv.

A few weeks ago, I purchased a new HD receiver from Best Buy to replace my 8 year old Tivo.

I took it home and called to activate my new HD receiver and talked to a representative at 1-800-Directv to activate it. I wasn't told that by doing so I was agreeing to a 2 year service commitment. I was not changing anything about my package, or adding any new services. There was nothing on the Best Buy receipt, the Box or manual to indicate that adding this receiver as a replacement to an existing account would extend my commitment to DirecTv.

When I discovered that I had been extended, I called to ask to put everything back the way it was (I would return the HD receiver and continue to use my HD-DVR and Tivo as my 2 receivers) I was told that this wasn't possible and that I'd agreed to a cancellation fee of $480!

I'm saddened to learn that DirecTv would take advantage of me by adding a commitment to my account without my knowledge or consent and then not helping resolve the issue. 

Finally the Office of the President called me and didn't help at all. They just restated that I have to pay or stay with them.


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## OneHump (Oct 25, 2007)

I think it's common knowledge that a new activation results in a new commitment. This has to do with the fact that you're typically paying a reduced price. If you ask DirecTV, they'll give you a "full" price that does not come with a commitment. In the case of the HR-21, I believe it is $700, vs the ~$299 you'll pay at Costco or Best Buy. I think there was a thread here before that estimated the manufacture cost of the HR-21 at around $400.

As for leaving DirecTV, I think you're only hurting yourself. They don't care if you come or go. You will, however, suffer with the lower quality of programming and picture quality you'll find elsewhere. You'll also find that every cable and sat provider has absolute crap service. DirecTV should allow you to reverse the commitment, but I don't think they're known for making quality service decisions.

My suggestion is to wait a bit and cool down. Setup your new receiver and accept the commitment and enjoy it. While it sucks in principle, and you might feel better giving DirecTV the finger, I think you'll be better off sticking with them.

Good luck.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Were you planning to cancel within the next two years? If not, then what's the big issue?


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## dp3 (Feb 1, 2008)

OneHump said:


> I think it's common knowledge that a new activation results in a new commitment. This has to do with the fact that you're typically paying a reduced price. If you ask DirecTV, they'll give you a "full" price that does not come with a commitment. In the case of the HR-21, I believe it is $700, vs the ~$299 you'll pay at Costco or Best Buy. I think there was a thread here before that estimated the manufacture cost of the HR-21 at around $400.
> 
> As for leaving DirecTV, I think you're only hurting yourself. They don't care if you come or go. You will, however, suffer with the lower quality of programming and picture quality you'll find elsewhere. You'll also find that every cable and sat provider has absolute crap service. DirecTV should allow you to reverse the commitment, but I don't think they're known for making quality service decisions.
> 
> ...


Thank you, that is most sound advice. I gave the executive CSRs the option of keeping me with a 1 year commitment, or taking my money and having me go.

They chose to see me go. All I asked for was a reduced commitment and even offered to pay for the HD Receiver, to no avail.


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

*Post like this show that it is hardly common knowledge beyond this board.*

It is only dp3's 3rd post.

Imho there should be an online big flashing warning or mandatory clause read to you by a CSR that one must agree to in order to proceed with a new contract commitment. This is not the case and these things are usually not pointed out to the customer until after the fact.

This is just a slimy sneaky business practice that D* could easily fix as easily I came up with how now. They just don't want to because unfortunately online updates and bill mailers are a completely legal way to update folks. It is beside the point that folks miss them and D* is under no legal obligation to make it more clear or would vastly improve their customer service by being above board on this.


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## dp3 (Feb 1, 2008)

litzdog911 said:


> Were you planning to cancel within the next two years? If not, then what's the big issue?


I am now. If they can change the terms of the agreement without giving me a chance to opt out, what's next?

They can raise the cost without allowing me to opt out, they can add commitments without expressly letting me know, what is there to give me hope that they will ever let me go?

This is now a company that doesn't act with honor, so why would I believe that they will start in 24 months?


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## OneHump (Oct 25, 2007)

DP3, it's not a matter of honor, it's a matter of crap service, and you know you're going to get it everywhere. My contract was up recently after 10 years and I looked hard at alternatives. I really wanted to get a Tivo Series 3 with cable cards. After calling Comcast, I was convinced that worst service could not exist. Their content was also miserable with 22 HD channels. 

I opted to stick with DirecTV and had to call 3 times and get through to the cancellation line so I could place an order for my HR-21. As long as you have the expectation of receiving crap service from crap service professionals, you won't be suprised when you have experiences like this.

Trust me, it sucks, and it makes little sense, but you have to weigh your options.


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## Sat4me (May 13, 2006)

Word of Advice ---

When dealing with D*, ask lots of questions, expect to be lied to and castrated, learn to love it and you will be ok. They are an unscrupulous outfit and why shouldn't they be, they have you by the ........... and they know that the vast majority of their customers will maybe grumble but in the end, they will stay because there are only limited options. One of these days that might not be true and they might be surprised when the customers start leaving.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Curious you chose the username "Sat4me", but then again maybe the "Sat" doesn't stand for "satellite".


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## Drewg5 (Dec 15, 2006)

Most states have a law about contracts, and your 30 day right to rescind said contract. If your state has laws in place than there is no way any contract with any one can supersede it. 

I wish I knew this years ago, or a year ago rather. Here in MO the only contract that the right to rescind does not cover is auto/home loans.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

bidger said:


> Curious you chose the username "Sat4me", but then again maybe the "Sat" doesn't stand for "satellite".


He chose the name in May 2006. Maybe his opinion changed since then.


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## STEVED21 (Feb 6, 2006)

I'm sure that when you got the receiver at BB, they asked for your phone #. That was to tie the receiver to your account. I know that somewhere in the foot long receipt it mentions the 2 year commitment and the the lease terms for upgrading. There probably was a very large sticker in on the box with these terms also. How do I know this? I have upgraded all my receivers thru BB, and the above has been the case every time.

Also, I don't understand the problem people have with a commitment period. If you are spending the money to upgrade, are you really planning to leave in such a short period of time? Of course the always are some unforseen circumstances that would force an early cancellation. But we don't expect them to happen.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

OneHump said:


> I think it's common knowledge that a new activation results in a new commitment.


That argument won't fly for D* in a court of law. It was either disclosed or it wasn't. If it wasn't, then no contract.


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## kb7oeb (Jun 16, 2004)

If your paperwork does not list the commitment I would ask Directv to prove you agreed and they won't be able to. A similar thing happened to my parents with Sprint, they switched to verizon and sprint claimed a CSR had called and had my Mom agree to another two years even thought they got nothing in return. To me a CSR checking a agreed to contract button on their computer is not proof of agreement.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

... If the lawyer fees are worth $480, go ahead y'all.
BTW, dont forget that all this information is listed in the customer agreement. Which, by the way, you agree to each month by paying your bill. As far as the commitment goes, you agreed to that when you activated service, as well as when you signed the W/O for the technician. If you installed it yourself, like I said, activated service and paying your bill.


I understand that you dont agree with it/dont like it, but thats the way its setup.


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## narcolept (Mar 1, 2007)

Oh... *sigh*.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8504022&type=product&id=1186004963910

Product Features

* Prices shown are "lease upgrade fees." Additional $4.99/mo. lease fee applies for each DIRECTV Receiver you add. *Programming commitment required*. See terms.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8503951&type=product&id=1186004963843

Prices shown are "lease upgrade fees." Additional $4.99/mo. lease fee applies for each DIRECTV Receiver you add. *Programming commitment required*. See terms.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8328632&type=product&id=1174694369877

Prices shown are "lease upgrade fees." Additional $4.99/mo. lease fee applies for each DIRECTV Receiver you add. *Programming commitment required.* See terms.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7345857&type=product&id=1122654459818

Prices shown are "lease upgrade fees." Additional $4.99/mo. lease fee applies for each DIRECTV Receiver you add. P*rogramming commitment required*. See terms.

If only they and Best Buy didn't go through the trouble of making it the FIRST BULLET POINT on each of their receivers on their website. Unfortunately, it's also on the little placard that's directly in front of your face in the store.

The original poster didn't bother to read it, or didn't care, and asked a random question to the CSR who activated it, who more than likely said "Oh yeah, whatever".

At no point, I'm sure, did he read anything he got with the receiver or did he walk back to Best Buy and see if it was anywhere there BEFORE activating it.

DirecTV "failed" him because even retention and/or the office of the president refused to let him keep the receiver at the subsidized price with less of a commitment, so that he could walk away before they made up the cost of that receiver.

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter as he "bought" a receiver for $99, then paid $480 to get out of his contract. He now had to return that receiver or pay a larger fee. Principle or not, his wallet probably would've felt better if he just lived up to the commitment he made by activating the receiver -- Whether he knew it or not, the information had been made available to him. If he didn't notice/care, it's only one person's problem.

Best of luck to the OP, perhaps he'll pay more attention to details in the future.

To all those who say "Make them prove it", unless you're prepared to take it to a court of law under penalty of perjury and have 100% undisputable proof, if I was a CSR/Retention/Office of the President/Chase Carey himself, my response would be "You first."


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## HawkEye19 (Feb 1, 2008)

Hmmmm....just remember people that if you post on here, be prepared to take on the D* fanboys who will defend * until the end of time. CJTE would be a prime example. In my lurking here, he is one of the site members who have on rose (or would it be blue colored lenses when it comes to D* customer service practices.


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## narcolept (Mar 1, 2007)

HawkEye19 said:


> Hmmmm....just remember people that if you post on here, be prepared to take on the D* fanboys who will defend * until the end of time. CJTE would be a prime example. In my lurking here, he is one of the site members who have on rose (or would it be blue colored lenses when it comes to D* customer service practices.


Great first post, to attack another member. Of course, you'll just call me a fanboy for pointing out that CJTE's post, much like mine right after it, pointed out that this commitment is in now way a secret...

:welcome_s ...... :bang


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## HawkEye19 (Feb 1, 2008)

Worry not, I'll attack until the day is done. Especially when it comes to posters who do not see D* customer service faults.

After clicking on each of your hyperlinks, they all say "lease upgrade fee". Nowhere is there a write-up as to what the "lease upgrade fee" is. The commintment is not a secret, but one has to dig for it. Especially when you use the poor examples you just cited.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

*Deleted by sigma1914*


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## narcolept (Mar 1, 2007)

Prices shown are "lease upgrade fees." Additional $4.99/mo. lease fee applies for each DIRECTV Receiver you add. *Programming commitment required. See terms.*

You know, I actually thought in the first post... "Should I make 'See Terms.'" bold as well?" to myself, and decided "Nah, these are generally smart people, they'll see it.".

The terms are either on his receipt, in the box, right there on the shelf at best buy, at DirecTV.com - http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P500014, and were originally agreed to when we all signed up for service in the first place.

Sure, it's great fun to paint company X as terrible people who are out to ruin you financially while they regularly take breaks en masse to warm themselves near fires built of $100 bills, but this is simple logic. EVEN IF the "terms" weren't available in 36pt font hot glued to the front of the original poster's receiver, if something refers to "terms", you should go and see them.

Also, the most telling point is that he asked about a commitment -- If it hadn't been brought up at some point, he would've had no reason to ask about said commitment or bring it up to the activating CSR, most likely.

Also, he could've reactivated the Tivo and kept it on the account for $120 over 24 months... Much cheaper than $480 over right now.

If you signed up and made your first two posts to start an argument, you should've at least prepared yourself with a tiny bit of logic.. Do I need to go a local best buy and take pictures of the sign right there on the shelf that says a commitment is required?

If that's the case, it's not even worth discussing this with you.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

STEVED21 said:


> Also, I don't understand the problem people have with a commitment period. If you are spending the money to upgrade, are you really planning to leave in such a short period of time? Of course the always are some unforseen circumstances that would force an early cancellation. But we don't expect them to happen.


Honestly... PQ doesn't necessarily concern me, so long as its not constant pixellation, audio is the same way. I personally dont watch alot of TV. However, Cable isnt available in my area, so DirecTV was the way to go. One thing that I do give cable over DirecTV is that they've figured out how to have all my TVs hooked up without using a single external receiver, unless I want premium channels.

Point is, because im not a big TV watcher, and not really interested sports/HD. Local channels are nice, and I like to watch a few programs on USA/TNT, but the only reason I pay so much for DirecTV is because cable isnt an option to me right now. So, I've got a few HDDVR's, an R15, and some D11's. I'm part of the CE program because I figure if I pay so much for the service and the equipment I should have fun with it.

But when it comes time to cancel, paying that prorated $480 is really going to suck, but it'll save me in the long run.


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## diggerg56 (Sep 26, 2007)

STEVED21 said:


> I'm sure that when you got the receiver at BB, they asked for your phone #. That was to tie the receiver to your account. I know that somewhere in the foot long receipt it mentions the 2 year commitment and the the lease terms for upgrading. There probably was a very large sticker in on the box with these terms also. How do I know this? I have upgraded all my receivers thru BB, and the above has been the case every time.
> 
> Also, I don't understand the problem people have with a commitment period. If you are spending the money to upgrade, are you really planning to leave in such a short period of time? Of course the always are some unforseen circumstances that would force an early cancellation. But we don't expect them to happen.


That's true about the best Buy thing. It's always been on the box and the receipt in my experience, in fact a disclosure thing appeared in the display (the same one used for credit cards) that I had to sign as well.

I've never not had a CSR tell me about any committments associated with no equipment and I think with my last HD DVR Lease I also received a confirmation noting the committment in the mail after it was activated.

Maybe I'm just the exception.


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## tim81 (Jul 3, 2007)

so my question is, if you really were with d* for 8 years, how did you not know manage to be oblivious to the whole lease/commitment thing? 

most of the people pointing this out have probably been with the company less time but seem to read their agreements/receipts/etc. if you've been with them 8 years of getting customer agreements every year and calling and talking to reps and still had no clue, ??? c'mon. bad message board to vent on, bud, they call bs on this one. :sure:


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## HawkEye19 (Feb 1, 2008)

Since we're going to get pissy about this, I may as well point out that you referenced numerous Best Buy links in your original post, where it states "see terms". Nowhere on the Best Buy site are there terms stating what you are agreeing to when you purchase a new receiver (Now, I did not actually go into a store and purchase a new receiver, nor did I purchase one via BestBuy.com). Please reference _exactly_ what Best Buy states for "see terms" when you purchase a new receiver online. If you are going to reference the "see terms" point on BestBuy.com, then post the terms that are posted on said website.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

HawkEye19 said:


> Since we're going to get pissy about this, I may as well point out that you referenced numerous Best Buy links in your original post, where it states "see terms". Nowhere on the Best Buy site are there terms stating what you are agreeing to when you purchase a new receiver (Now, I did not actually go into a store and purchase a new receiver, nor did I purchase one via BestBuy.com). Please reference _exactly_ what Best Buy states for "see terms" when you purchase a new receiver online. If you are going to reference the "see terms" point on BestBuy.com, then post the terms that are posted on said website.


Terms & Conditions.

The terms that are being referred too.
Terms that the subscriber agreed to when they signed up with service via DirecTV, and terms that are agreed to each month by paying the bill and receiving DirecTV service.


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## tim81 (Jul 3, 2007)

what is directv?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?guideID=1043363070305&type=page&id=cat12077

directv customer agreement

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?guideID=1043363096092&type=page&id=cat12077


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## deltafowler (Aug 28, 2007)

dp3,
Many states have consumer protection laws that provide for a period of time in which a purchase or contract can be nullified with no penalties.

I suggest you contact California's Dept. of Consumer Affairs and inquire about it.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/

Late edit:
See specifically
http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/k-6.shtml

CONSUMER TRANSACTIONS WITH STATUTORY
CONTRACT CANCELLATION RIGHTS
January, 1999
I. SPECIFIC STATUTORY CANCELLATION RIGHTS
A number of laws give consumers the right to cancel contracts in specific transactions shortly after the consumer signs the contract. A list of these transactions and the periods allowed for canceling them follows. Note that some cancellation periods are measured in business days.

A consumer-buyer can cancel these contracts for any reason (or for no reason). In order to cancel, the buyer must send the seller written notice of cancellation within the period allowed by statute. (Most cancellation periods begin when the consumer receives written notification of his or her right to cancel.) The buyer must sign and date the cancellation notice, and it must state that the buyer is canceling the contract. The buyer should send the notice to the seller by certified mail return, receipt requested, at the address the seller has given in the sale documents. The buyer should keep a copy of the notice for his or her own records to be able to prove that the notice was given.

Generally, the buyer's notice of cancellation is effective when it is deposited in the mail with the proper address and postage. The buyer should note the exact date, time and place of mailing on the retained copy.

"Service Contracts
For used cars, home appliances, and home electronic products -- 30 day cancellation period (CC 1794.41(a)(4)(A)). "


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

dp3 said:


> I think I'm done with DirecTv.
> 
> A few weeks ago, I purchased a new HD receiver from Best Buy to replace my 8 year old Tivo.
> 
> ...


dp3.. I feel for you. I have been in retail for years and I can tell you that every company that is publicly traded has gone downhill in customer service over the last 8 years. Unfortunately it is as much the consumers fault as it is the stock holders. In this case I do not agree with one of the statements you made... You now Directv raises their rates yearly, as does everyone else. You obviously know this if you've been with them for 8 years. However, with that said, if you really want to cancel the upgrade, you should and you should not be penalized for this. It says you live in California, so trust me when I say you have a cooling off period. Pick the phone back up and call Directv and ask for retention. You can always fight the transaction on your credit card bill too, and you have a pretty decent shot of wining that way too, especially if you use an American express card. In the end though, if I were you I'd stay with Directv. They have had the same policies in place for many years, they are just starting to try and enforce them a lot more these days, which quite frankly is good for you. No more freebies to people that whine daily, which means less money down the drain for Directv, and the more money they are making the less strict they will be with their best customers and more importantly, their rates won't go up as fast, as opposed to cable which is constantly skyrocketing around here... Unless you were expecting to leave in the next 2 years, their really shouldn't be any issues for you in the future...

By the way, one little piece of advice, (although I don't believe you did this by the tone of your post, but) whatever you do, never yell or curse anyone on the other end of the phone. You do and you will loose....


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## shoeheel (Oct 15, 2006)

My sons were going to buy me an HR21 HD DVR for Chirstmas to upgrade one of our R15s. Just before we pulled the trigger, I remembered it would cause the BS automatic renewal. (Last year, I added a receiver 3 months into my original contract, learning about the automatic renewal the hard way.) Obviously we decided not to do the upgrade. So the joke is on DTV. They lost revenue due to their insane policy of automatic renewals. And when my contract is up, I sure as heck will consider other options. 

AT&T's DVR looks pretty sweet...record 4 programs at once. 

Dp3 got hosed. No two ways about it.

By the way, I went to Starbucks today and paid with a credit card. After I signed my credit card receipt, they told me I agreed to buy one latte an hour for the next 2 years. HELP ME! I'M DROWNING IN OVER-PRICED COFFEE. Just kidding, but I think you get the picture.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

shoeheel said:


> My sons were going to buy me an HR21 HD DVR for Chirstmas to upgrade one of our R15s. Just before we pulled the trigger, I remembered it would cause the BS automatic renewal. (Last year, I added a receiver 3 months into my original contract, learning about the automatic renewal the hard way.) Obviously we decided not to do the upgrade. So the joke is on DTV. They lost revenue due to their insane policy of automatic renewals. And when my contract is up, I sure as heck will consider other options.
> 
> AT&T's DVR looks pretty sweet...record 4 programs at once.
> 
> ...


Actually, I'd say right now your are the one getting hosed... No HD???!!!

Is AT&T actually in your area, and how many HD shows will it do at one time today?

DP3 has options, and to be honest, there may be more to his story that he has left out. I have never activated a receiver without the CSR explaining that it will add to my commitment....

UUUhhh, no I don't get the picture. Your star bucks analogy just doesn't hold latte.....


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

CJTE said:


> ... One thing that I do give cable over DirecTV is that they've figured out how to have all my TVs hooked up without using a single external receiver, unless I want premium channels.


Perhaps, but wait until the cable company shuts down their analog tier to reclaim bandwidth for HD... then they will be on the same playing field as DirecTV.


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## tim81 (Jul 3, 2007)

maybe i'm living under a rock, but haven't commitments been going on for awhile? 

-every time i want a new cell phone i'm locked.

-my landlord seems to want me to sign leases of at least 6 months to a year

-my car insurance gets paid 6 months at a time

-local cable does at least a 12 month commitment, dish does 18 months

since when is this news?!?!?!?!


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

Newshawk said:


> Perhaps, but wait until the cable company shuts down their analog tier to reclaim bandwidth for HD... then they will be on the same playing field as DirecTV.


We'll see.
I'm actually interested to see what will happen there.

If anyone wants to take the time to explain this (and somewhat dumb it down) thoroughly, it would give me the ability to seriously reconsider dropping DirecTV.

The other problem is the damn mirror fees for each peice of equ, but seeing as that I probably wont be able to get Cox to directly answer any questions regarding future costs. And even if they would, and weren't lieing, they probably wouldnt have alot of info.


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## narcolept (Mar 1, 2007)

HawkEye19 said:


> Since we're going to get pissy about this, I may as well point out that you referenced numerous Best Buy links in your original post, where it states "see terms". Nowhere on the Best Buy site are there terms stating what you are agreeing to when you purchase a new receiver (Now, I did not actually go into a store and purchase a new receiver, nor did I purchase one via BestBuy.com). Please reference _exactly_ what Best Buy states for "see terms" when you purchase a new receiver online. If you are going to reference the "see terms" point on BestBuy.com, then post the terms that are posted on said website.


Stop picking whichever sentence in my posts suits your pseudo-argument. The sentence before "See Terms" is "Programming Commitment Required".. For the majority of people with IQs about that of a sea horse, that would mean "Hrm. They want me to commit to something by getting this. I should either see what they want me to commit to, or not get this and save myself $480 in cancellation fees if a contract is going to be so big a deal that I can no longer do business with them."


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## dieseladdict (Dec 24, 2007)

We all do have opinions. I totally respect that dp3 feels they were treated unfairly. I have seen this same basic theme repeated multiple times on this forum. I have been a poster fighting against such perceived threats upon my person in other forums. Same concept with a difference subject.

I would recommend that everyone here look up and read a bit about reactant behavior. It was a real eye opener for me. I am reactant.

Reading about it hasn't cured me from the stress caused by such things but it has allowed me to recognize the behavior and make better choices. When I upgraded to a HR20 recently I argued against the contract commitment but recognizing the reactant behavior I took a deep breath and realized there was no realistic alternative here (no cable this far into the country) and changing to some other service in the next 2 years wasn't going to happen so what does it matter if I have a commitment or not? I was just resisting the *idea *of a contract when it made absolutely *NO *difference in my choice. I was wasting my time.

Can we acknowledge that coming here and advertising that you are leaving one service for another has no value? What does it accomplish?? If you want to inform the community about some event or mistreatment that has occurred to you, that is different. If you have made the decision to leave, just act on it and move on with your life. The rest of us will be fine.


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## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

tim81 said:


> so my question is, if you really were with d* for 8 years, how did you not know manage to be oblivious to the whole lease/commitment thing?
> 
> most of the people pointing this out have probably been with the company less time but seem to read their agreements/receipts/etc. if you've been with them 8 years of getting customer agreements every year and calling and talking to reps and still had no clue, ??? c'mon. bad message board to vent on, bud, they call bs on this one. :sure:


They changed the rules of the game. If I had not gone out of my way (here, for example) to find out, I would not have known about the change from owned to leased equipment. I understand the OP's position. When I got my first HR20, they renewed me for two years. I was OK with that because a) they told me clearly that those were the terms and b) they essentially gave me the HR20 at no cost.

If I had been humming happily along with DTV for years and then went to Best Buy thinking I was purchasing a new receiver, I would not expect to have my commitment extended simply for activating a new box that I had paid for.

Now, I understand that they are subsidizing the boxes even when you "pay" for them at Best Buy. Still, there's no reason to expect that everyone should be aware of this.

Since DTV did not send out a mailer to every subscriber describing in large, friendly letters how they were switching to a lease model and that activating would extend the commitment, they should have done the right thing here and given him a chance to back out. This was badly handled.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

narcolept said:


> Stop picking whichever sentence in my posts suits your pseudo-argument. The sentence before "See Terms" is "Programming Commitment Required".. For the majority of people with IQs about that of a sea horse, that would mean "Hrm. They want me to commit to something by getting this. I should either see what they want me to commit to, or not get this and save myself $480 in cancellation fees if a contract is going to be so big a deal that I can no longer do business with them."


I purchased a DirecTV receiver at Best Buy about 5 years ago. I don't know if there was information on the internet regarding a programming commitment. I bought the unit in the store, not on the internet, so I wouldn't have seen info which was on the internet.

But Best Buy made me sign a receipt indicating that I agreed to the programming commitment. It caught me by surprise, because it was the first I had heard of the programming commitment.

Although it is possible that Best Buy no longer has customers sign commitment receipts when customer buys DirecTV receivers, I would be disappointed if they stopped doing this.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

shoeheel said:


> My sons were going to buy me an HR21 HD DVR for Chirstmas to upgrade one of our R15s. Just before we pulled the trigger, I remembered it would cause the BS automatic renewal. (Last year, I added a receiver 3 months into my original contract, learning about the automatic renewal the hard way.) Obviously we decided not to do the upgrade. So the joke is on DTV. They lost revenue due to their insane policy of automatic renewals. And when my contract is up, I sure as heck will consider other options.
> 
> *AT&T's DVR looks pretty sweet...record 4 programs at once. *
> 
> ...


With the ability to record only 1 thing in HD at a time, not very sweet.


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## wmj5 (Aug 26, 2007)

I only have the h20-100 receiver and 5 lnb dish and I have the protection plan, If I trade out another receiver would that add on to my commitment, and one more thing, if I wanted to leave D* what would they charge me,{not that I'm going to leave, I'd just like to know}


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Drewg5 said:


> Most states have a law about contracts, and your 30 day right to rescind said contract. If your state has laws in place than there is no way any contract with any one can supersede it.
> 
> I wish I knew this years ago, or a year ago rather. Here in MO the only contract that the right to rescind does not cover is auto/home loans.


Drewg5,

This is bad information most states do not have laws allowing 30 days to rescind contracts. Some, in limited circumstances, offer three days to so.

The customer may have other avenues, but rescission based on statute probably isn't one of them.

I would strongly suggest that the OP write a formal complaint to his state Attorney General and/or his state department of consumer affairs.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

tim81 said:


> maybe i'm living under a rock, but haven't commitments been going on for awhile?
> 
> -every time i want a new cell phone i'm locked.
> 
> ...


Let's go through your examples:

1. At least with Sprint the commitments are very, very clear on their website. If you order over the phone they actually clearly state and RECORD the commitment. If your phone fails under the ONE year warranty they give you a new one and don't change your commitment.

2. You sign a lease with your landlord.

3. Car insurance premiums are NOT a commitment. If you cancel your insurance you will get a prorated refund.

4. Comcast does not do commitments here in Florida or in Massachusetts. There are some commitments with cable companies in exchange for discounts, etc...but they are all very clearly stated. For instance Comcast offered my mother a $10/month discount if she committed for one year.
------

I have three HR20 boxes here that DO NOT have any statement about a commitment or a lease ON the outside of the box. There was no prior notice. The paperwork that came with them called them a purchase.

What DirecTV is doing is akin to the tactics of companies like Integrated Alarm Services.

There's nothing wrong with commitments, but DirecTV does not adequately inform customers...and in some cases there is NO prior notice whatsoever. Recently we ordered an additional HR directly from DirecTV. Not once during the phone conversation was the commitment discussed.

They can do a much, much, much better job of letting customers know about these commitments...they choose not to.


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## shoeheel (Oct 15, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Let's go through your examples:
> 
> 1. At least with Sprint the commitments are very, very clear on their website. If you order over the phone they actually clearly state and RECORD the commitment. If your phone fails under the ONE year warranty they give you a new one and don't change your commitment.
> 
> ...


Kudos to Ken S. He is right on point. It's not about the commitment it's; it's about the shady way DTV deals with "disclosing" the commitment. Any company can run (ruin) their business the way they want to, but for my (future) money, they shouldn't be running it like a Nigerian Scam Letter.


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## shoeheel (Oct 15, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> With the ability to record only 1 thing in HD at a time, not very sweet.


Not an apples to apples comparison.

Sounds like you would rather miss a program than watch it in standard def. Now does that really make sense?

BTW, I'm not pimping a specific provider or piece of hardware. I'm simply pointing out I will be looking at all the (increased) choices when my (BS extended) commitment is up.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

pratttech said:


> *Post like this show that it is hardly common knowledge beyond this board.*
> 
> It is only dp3's 3rd post.
> 
> ...


^ More than a bit over the top but essentially correct.

The OP has taken a beating in this thread. Instead, I'll give him a break. I will also make an assumption, that he hasn't added a new receiver since he got his TiVo 8 years ago. In that period of time, DirecTV's business model has changed. They've gone from selling product to leasing it. If I wasn't in the business, I wouldn't have known this. Before this fall, the last time I changed my hardware was 2002. Back then I bought it.

That said, the OP does deserve some grief not paying attention. While it isn't in flashing lights, the fact that the business model has changed is hardly in small print. He says he hasn't seen the change. I say, kindly, you weren't looking. The OP does have to pay a penance and unfortunately right now it's $480.

dp3, onehump is right. Cool down. Enjoy your entertainment. That gets so lost in these blow-ups. Watch the new HD. It's pretty damn neat. Rediscover all the reasons you liked DirecTV. The $480 is going down at a measily $20 a month. You might as well get your money's worth. Your receiver, while different than your TiVo and hardly perfect, is also pretty cool and is getting better with every software upgrade.

Look at it this way, dp3: Suppose the day before you bought your new DVR, I met you in a bar. Over a beer, you tell me of your upcoming purchase and I say, _whoa, you know there's a commitment attached, don't you?_ You reply you don't and we talk about it. Now, fully informed, would you have still gone to Best Buy and purchased the receiver? If the answer is, yes, all of the other _strum and drang _is just that, drama and being understandably upset. Instead, relax. Let me buy you another beer.

Tell us how you feel in a couple of months. You might have tempered your opinion.


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## jostanton (Nov 15, 2006)

I got out of D*s contract when the HR20 was plauged with bugs. I simply filed an online conplaint with the Better Business Bureau. D* did not like that, and released me from their contract within 3 weeks. Trust me it works.


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## SledDog (May 6, 2007)

HawkEye19 said:


> After clicking on each of your hyperlinks, they all say "lease upgrade fee". Nowhere is there a write-up as to what the "lease upgrade fee" is. The commintment is not a secret, but one has to dig for it. Especially when you use the poor examples you just cited.


Interesting.... I buddy of mine just purchase a HR21 from Best Buy. He still had his original equipment from the mid 90's and was upgrading to HD....

He notice the "Programming Commitment" info when he was in the store. Wasn't sure what the commitment was, so he called DirecTV. After getting an explaination from DirecTV, he purchased the unit.

If you don't know what it means, then ask.

Is DirecTV's customer service the best? No, it isn't.

In this day and age, you need to do a little research before you buy any type of service or equipment. Those who don't, run the risk of having the same thing happen to them, that happened to the OP.


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## Bobham (Jan 26, 2008)

Having read the posts, it may be true that D* is legally covered by the fine print for extending a commitment for 2 years when you purchase your receiver from BB, but that does not make it right. Perhaps he SHOULD have known better, but D* seems to go out of their way to hide the information. I learned about D* and their lack of ethics when they sued 500,000 people in Federal courts with the outrageous claims that they were all "pirates", stealing D* service. Perhaps some were, but many were not... however they all had to pay several thousand dollars to make the lawsuit go away. For D* it was all about publicity and frightening the pirates underground. For those innocently snared in the nightmare of a Federal court system for the first time, it was about stress, worry and financial burden. For me personally, D* will NEVER be a viable choice, and I suggest E* to my friends. It's a matter of ethics. Sorry to rant... won't happen again.


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

SledDog said:


> If you don't know what it means, then ask.


:lol: I'm sorry but isn't that what dp3 did once he first noticed the commitment?

Like I said way back at the top the thread-- there is nothing illegal going on here from D*. That still doesn't mean that some sleazy thuggish business turf protection practices aren't sanctioned by law, lol. Depending on folks to read the fine print when said fine print is usually written for those in the legal profession is just not going to happen and people will still get taken. The retail fine print also basically says that once activated you are on your own with D* and not even able to return it under their usually more generous return policies.

DirecTV chooses to keep this confusing to new (and old) customers alike. Most folks out shopping buying that new DirecTV receiver in a retail store have no idea that they are not really buying anything-- that they are paying a lease upgrade into a two year commitment. If D* really wanted to improve their customer satisfaction and stem the complaints on these practices, then *they would have a very clear pop-up alert for someone activating online or CSRs that must inform you of this before they activate your new receiver.* In my case I knew about the commitment and as I wanted the service (like a lot of folks have pointed out) I had no problem with the contract term.

My own customer service and satisfaction problems with D* began when I listened to the installer about only missing 4 local channels (that I get OTA) with no line of sight to 119 and let him proceed. I have since found that I am missing more than ten channels and so far D* has been unresponsive to my emails or calls. I also called D* about their advertised $20/month credit in Q4 2007 before I signed up to be clear and explained that I was purchasing a HDTV at Circuit City and that I would sign up in the store for another HDTV credit on activating D* service. I was assured that I would still get the monthly credits.

Well so far-- no credits. In calling in I have been assured that I am getting $10/month, but that $20/month wasn't going to happen because I signed up in a store. This is not what I was told by their CSR before signing up and I haven't even seen the $10 yet either! It was also a surprise to learn on this board that if they need to replace my receiver for failure they will restart my contract clock. So yes-- while nothing D* is doing is illegal they are certainly not trying in any way to build trust and loyalty with their new customers-- just lock them in surreptitiously.

It is a shame because I still believe they offer the superior viewing experience, but they certainly aren't keeping all their customers on this alone but very many under threat of their early cancel fee-- $480 is still a lot to a lot of people. HD is new and D* has the upper hand now, but convergence is coming and that HD will soon be ubiquitous. Let's see how long D* remains once all they have to distinguish them from their competitors is their customer service and satisfaction. It seems this made them but they have changed considerably in practice since 1994, and in the long run without more change this will break them.

_Quality in a service or product is not what you put into it. It is what the client or customer gets out of it._ --PETER DRUCKER

_Customers don't expect you to be perfect. They do expect you to fix things when they go wrong._ --DONALD PORTER

_Although your customers won't love you if you give bad service, your competitors will._ --KATE ZABRISKIE


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

CJTE said:


> We'll see.
> I'm actually interested to see what will happen there.
> 
> If anyone wants to take the time to explain this (and somewhat dumb it down) thoroughly, it would give me the ability to seriously reconsider dropping DirecTV.
> ...


Over the next year or so, most cable companies are expected to go to switched digital video and drop their analog feeds in order to free bandwidth to expand HD. They are holding their cards close at this point in time, because there is going to be a fairly big outcry when all the TV sets that don't have set top boxes attached stop working.

When this will happen is going to vary from company to company, and from geographic region to region. There is no certainty that any specific cable company will do this, or when.

But when it does happen, the end result will be that you will need a digital cable box at every television, just like you currently need a satellite box at every TV with DirecTV.

You are correct in that asking your cable company about this isn't going to yield much information, mainly because the information has not been communicated to the CSR tier, and won't be until the time arrives. Just like calling DirecTV and asking a CSR about the AM21 (ATSC tuner) - they don't know about it because it isn't available yet.

I know a local Comcast tech (niece's boyfriend), and he indicated that they have been told about this, that Comcast will be doing it, but he is not aware of their schedule. It isn't imminent, but it is comming.

Whether or not, or when, this transition might occur with your specific cable company is unkown, and it could well be a couple of years down the road. But rest assured, it will happen eventually.

Carl


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

dp3 said:


> I think I'm done with DirecTv.
> 
> A few weeks ago, I purchased a new HD receiver from Best Buy to replace my 8 year old Tivo.
> 
> ...


I'm curious why you'd buy a piece of equipment that can be used ONLY with Directv, then be upset that you have to agree to use it for 2 years...after 8 years with them. Were you planning on using it for 3 months then switching to cable?

For the record, each time I've activated new equipment with Directv, I've been told about the commitment period. After 10 years, I've had nothing but good experiences with them, including their licensed installers.



shoeheel said:


> By the way, I went to Starbucks today and paid with a credit card. After I signed my credit card receipt, they told me I agreed to buy one latte an hour for the next 2 years. HELP ME! I'M DROWNING IN OVER-PRICED COFFEE. Just kidding, but I think you get the picture.


But if Starbucks were to give you an $800 coffee mug for 90% off, a commitment to buying their coffee shouldn't come as a shock.


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## BobbyK (May 26, 2007)

The commitment should be on your bill each month. There was a time when it was but for some reason they stop doing it. Here is a old bill of mine.

Bill Statement Date 
02/11/2006 (-) Payments and credits 0.00 
(+) Current charges and taxes 66.96 
= AMOUNT DUE $-61.59 
New Pricing Effective March 1, 2006, the monthly price of some of our services will change. See the new pricing enclosed with this bill for details.



No payment is due at this time. This statement is for your information only.




Start End Description Amount 
Previous Balance -128.55 
Payment 0.00 
Subscriptions For Receiver: 0000000000 
08/27/05 08/26/07 Annual Commitment 2 Years 0.00 
02/10/06 03/09/06 HD Package Monthly 10.99 
02/10/06 03/09/06 TOTAL CHOICE PLUS Monthly 45.99 
02/10/06 03/09/06 Network: FOX HD Monthly 0.00 
02/10/06 03/09/06 Network: NBC HD Monthly 0.00 
Subscriptions For Receiver: 0000000000 
02/11/06 Additional Receiver 4.99 
Subscriptions For Receiver:0000000000 
02/11/06 Additional Receiver 4.99 
AMOUNT DUE $-61.59


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## narcolept (Mar 1, 2007)

http://consumerist.com/351385/direc...n-480-cancellation-fee-for-swapping-receivers

dp3, Daniel, also sent an email to the consumerist -- The site is nice, I like it, but in cases like this it's sickening to see people with no knowledge of the fact that he more tahn likely signed and agreed to the extension in store whining that he's being screwed.


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

durl said:


> I'm curious why you'd buy a piece of equipment that can be used ONLY with Directv, then be upset that you have to agree to use it for 2 years...For the record, each time I've activated new equipment with Directv, I've been told about the commitment period. After 10 years, I've had nothing but good experiences with them, including their licensed installers.


You must have always gotten the good CSRs, lol. Some people lead such charmed lives. It is obvious from the OP that he was not informed before activating. Can you possibly explain the two specific examples I gave of my being mislead-- first by a CSR and then by an installer?

I'm also so very glad to hear that after 10 years you've had nothing but good experiences with D*, but what has that to do with anything here? What is your post adding that wasn't already pointed out several times already beginning with the second reply to OP?



litzdog911 said:


> Were you planning to cancel within the next two years? If not, then what's the big issue?


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## CTJon (Feb 5, 2007)

tim81 said:


> maybe i'm living under a rock, but haven't commitments been going on for awhile?
> 
> -every time i want a new cell phone i'm locked.
> 
> ...


Cell phone you get a discount and easily can buy without and pay more.
Landlord doesn't change the term of you lease because you ask them to fix the sink.
Car insurance can be cancelled and you aren't liable for all.

I think the issue, to me is that they extend without you getting any benefit from it. If I add a package there is no committment vs. no committment price.

Someday the governement might actually do something worthwhile and actual pass consumer protection rights which would include clear language statements and being actively asked and committed to something and not just asked to sign a foot long piece of paper which includes other things.

Personally, I have no intention of leaving D* but hate the thought of additional committments for no good reason.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

narcolept said:


> the fact that he more tahn likely signed and agreed to the extension in store


You don't know that he signed an extension in the store. He said he didn't.

I would assume that if he had signed a commitment extension, when he called to complain to DirecTV and escalated the complaint to the Office of the President, that someone would have sent him a copy of what he signed.

If he signed something, there wouldn't be an issue, because DirecTV would have a copy of what he signed.


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

Upstream said:


> You don't know that he signed an extension in the store. He said he didn't.


Unfortunately unless he paid in cash-- his check or cc slip will have his signature and if the print was on the receipt then he did sign...

Again legal, but very deceptive


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## narcolept (Mar 1, 2007)

As others who have gotten receivers at BB have already said, you agree to it on the electronic transaction pad. He doesn't RECALL agreeing to it, but I'm sure he did.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Interesting ... According to the initial post in The Consumerist, this whole thing started because the OP has a DirecTV which he upgraded to an HD receiver. He decided within a week that he missed DVR functionality and wanted to return the receiver and get an HD DVR instead.

At that point DirecTV told him he couldn't do a swap-upgrade because he was under a 2-year commitment on the HD DVR, and couldn't get the HD DVR because he already used up his HD commitment for the HD receiver.

I wonder why DirecTV didn't just do the swap for him, collect the upgrade fees, and keep everyone happy.


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## SteveEJ (May 30, 2007)

narcolept said:


> Stop picking whichever sentence in my posts suits your pseudo-argument. The sentence before "See Terms" is "Programming Commitment Required".. For the majority of people with IQs about that of a sea horse, that would mean "Hrm. They want me to commit to something by getting this. I should either see what they want me to commit to, or not get this and save myself $480 in cancellation fees if a contract is going to be so big a deal that I can no longer do business with them."


Yea.. I've just been told that I have the IQ of a Seahorse!!:lol:

That makes me feel better.. Imagine that, a seahorse controlling airplanes for 32 years! Well, maybe he has a point!

Just for Fun.. Lighten up Dude!


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## STEVED21 (Feb 6, 2006)

As I said before, The receipt you get from BB is at least a foot long with type. It isn't a standard cc receipt. I was also asked to eith sign or initial the screen that I accepted the extension of the term. I knew what this was from my previous "purchases" and this forum so I didn't need to read all the fine print. I would assume that a prudent consumer presented with all this at the register might take the time to read what they are signing.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

STEVED21 said:


> As I said before, The receipt you get from BB is at least a foot long with type. It isn't a standard cc receipt. I was also asked to eith sign or initial the screen that I accepted the extension of the term. I knew what this was from my previous "purchases" and this forum so I didn't need to read all the fine print. I would assume that a prudent consumer presented with all this at the register might take the time to read what they are signing.


I also received the foot-long commitment receipt from Best Buy when I bought a receiver there about 5 years ago. I have a copy and I assume DirecTV has a copy.

But if the OP got this foot-long receipt, his complaint would be about commitments being buried in the fine print. He would have a copy, and DirecTV would have a copy which I assume they would have sent him when he complained about not knowing about the commitment.

This thread only makes sense if there is no written and signed commitment from Best Buy. If there is a written and signed commitment, the OP's complaint about the commitment is settled when DirecTV says "You agreed to it when you signed it here."


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

SledDog said:


> In this day and age, you need to do a little research before you buy any type of service or equipment. Those who don't, run the risk of having the same thing happen to them, that happened to the OP.


SledDog,

This is great advice...the same thing we tell clients all of the time! Ask questions...READ THE CONTRACTS...ask if you have questions (and not the salesperson).

They don't put it in tiny grey on grey print on the backside because it's boring...they put it there because they don't want you to read it.


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

Unfortunately the retailer is probably not going to let you hold up their line to read all of it...


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## carlsbad_bolt_fan (May 18, 2004)

HawkEye19 said:


> Hmmmm....just remember people that if you post on here, be prepared to take on the D* fanboys who will defend * until the end of time. CJTE would be a prime example. In my lurking here, he is one of the site members who have on rose (or would it be blue colored lenses when it comes to D* customer service practices.


Hmm...I don't know...the HR20 I got from Best buy said right on the box that a 2 year commitment was required.

The HR20 I bought from Costco said the same thing on the box AND on a big white sticker INSIDE the box.

Call me a "fanboy" if you want, but I do know how to read and comprehend what I've read.


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## Talos4 (Jun 21, 2007)

Ken S said:


> SledDog,
> 
> This is great advice...the same thing we tell clients all of the time! Ask questions...READ THE CONTRACTS...ask if you have questions (and not the salesperson).
> 
> They don't put it in tiny grey on grey print on the backside because it's boring...they put it there because they don't want you to read it.


But, it is there,

The OP complaining like this is kinda like signing up for a big box Credit Card, You get the first bill and THEN complain because they're charging you 28% interest.

Like stated above, You have to read and ask questions.

Over the past 10 years I've upgraded and changed stuff so many times that when the CSR's start their commitment speech I interrupt them and say that's fine I understand.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

One thing the we should all perhaps remember is you mileage *will *vary. 

When I upgraded via DIRECTV calls, I already new about the commitments and couldn't tell the CSRs that I already knew; they had to read the whole script each time. (I don't blame them at all, I just had hoped that I could spend a little less of both our time.)

I've also seen the stickers on _some_ boxes at BB, CC, and BB&B (just a small joke). I can not say that every box at retail will have the stickers nor that every CSR will mention it every time.

So I can easily understand that the OP might have very reasonably either missed the details or never been apprised of them. So he's very welcome to vent his frustrations from his point of view.

I'm saddened that the OP didn't get the excellent service that I've enjoyed.

Cheers all,
Tom


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

narcolept said:


> http://consumerist.com/351385/direc...n-480-cancellation-fee-for-swapping-receivers
> 
> dp3, Daniel, also sent an email to the consumerist -- The site is nice, I like it, but in cases like this it's sickening to see people with no knowledge of the fact that he more tahn likely signed and agreed to the extension in store whining that he's being screwed.


I guess he decided to spread the word that he messed up.


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## JBernardK (Aug 16, 2006)

Does the commitment apply if you replace an owned SD Direct TiVo with another owned SD TiVo. My daughter's current one is acting up and I want to give her mine that I am no longer using.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

JBernardK said:


> Does the commitment apply if you replace an owned SD Direct TiVo with another owned SD TiVo. My daughter's current one is acting up and I want to give her mine that I am no longer using.


It should not--if you own the SD Tivo that you are giving to your Daughter. Leased can represent other issues.

Be prepared to replace the access card. Sometimes you can use the access card from your daughter's account in the "new" receiver and avoid the $20 new card fee.

Cheers,
Tom


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

pratttech said:


> You must have always gotten the good CSRs, lol. Some people lead such charmed lives. It is obvious from the OP that he was not informed before activating. Can you possibly explain the two specific examples I gave of my being mislead-- first by a CSR and then by an installer?


Nope. Sure can't. And I'm not dismissing them. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences. I believe the OP believes he was not informed. However, that doesn't mean that the information was not there.



pratttech said:


> I'm also so very glad to hear that after 10 years you've had nothing but good experiences with D*, but what has that to do with anything here? What is your post adding that wasn't already pointed out several times already beginning with the second reply to OP?


I'm just adding my voice to those who have been fully informed about commitments. As more people speak up and share their experiences, it helps give a better overall picture of the situation.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> One thing the we should all perhaps remember is you mileage *will *vary.
> 
> When I upgraded via DIRECTV calls, I already new about the commitments and couldn't tell the CSRs that I already knew; they had to read the whole script each time. (I don't blame them at all, I just had hoped that I could spend a little less of both our time.)
> 
> ...


Tom,

I think they started adding the stickers around the second quarter. I have never had a CSR go through the commitment with me (nor do I ask about it...because I know). It should be mandatory. As bad as Sprint's Customer Service is...I have activated over 100 phones (home and work) and each time they stop...read the speech and then get an affirmative verbal agreement from the customer which is recorded.

My receipt from Crutchfield doesn't speak of a lease and the documentation inside the HR20 boxes specifically states purchase. Hopefully they are cleaning this stuff up.

On the other side I have little patience for the people that refuse to read agreements. Guess what...you're a big boy/girl...read the document and understand what you're signing. We're not talking like you're in the emergency room of a hospital faced with a release. If you're in line at the Best Buy...step out of line and read the thing.

I should say that most people are too lazy to read most documents including their home mortgages.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

As others have stated, the lesson here is READ THE FINE PRINT. It's not the responsibility of others to hold your hand, and guide you through life. If you have this expectation, you can also expect to find yourself repeatedly in these situations. 

Rather than blaming others, take responsibility for your own mistake.


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

man_rob said:


> As others have stated, the lesson here is READ THE FINE PRINT. It's not the responsibility of others to hold your hand, and guide you through life.
> 
> If you have this expectation, you can also expect to find yourself repeatedly in these situations.
> 
> Rather than blaming others, take responsibility for your own mistake.


Is it really necessary to be so condescending? So you don't use lawyers or CPAs or any other professional to navigate the modern morass of paperwork? If so, good for you. Regardless of how he missed the fine print that you are so good at seeing, it does appear to me that he tried even before posting here and "blaming others, take responsibility for your own mistake"



dp3 said:


> When I discovered that I had been extended, I called to ask to put everything back the way it was (I would return the HD receiver and continue to use my HD-DVR and Tivo as my 2 receivers) I was told that this wasn't possible and that I'd agreed to a cancellation fee of $480!


That D* seizes upon this mistake and offers no flexibility with their 8 year customer is the larger issue here. There was no recently installed dish cost to recoup. They really had nothing to lose in satisfying this request and everything to gain. They really could have used another happy customer and dp3's post would have been nonexistent or a much different one. Such service will eventually come back to bite them.

_If you make customers unhappy in the physical world, they might each tell 6 friends. If you make customers unhappy on the Internet, they can each tell 6,000 friends._ --JEFF BEZOS


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

pratttech said:


> That D* seizes upon this mistake and offers no flexibility with their 8 year customer is the larger issue here. There was no recently installed dish cost to recoup. They really had nothing to lose in satisfying this request and everything to gain. They really could have used another happy customer and dp3's post would have been nonexistent or a much different one. Such service will eventually come back to bite them.


If you read The Consumerist post linked earlier in this thread, you'll see that the only reason the OP wanted out of his commitment was because he changed his mind about upgrading to an HD receiver and decided he really wanted and HD DVR receiver, and DirecTV told him that his commitment prevented him from getting an HD DVR.

So DirecTV could have avoided this whole thing if they just said "We'll send you an HD DVR, bill you $99 plus $20 shipping, trigger a new 2 year commitment, and send you a box so you can return the HD receiver you've had for 3 days."

And then everyone would have been happy.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

pratttech said:


> Is it really necessary to be so condescending? So you don't use lawyers or CPAs or any other professional to navigate the modern morass of paperwork? If so, good for you. Regardless of how he missed the fine print that you are so good at seeing, it does appear to me that he tried even before posting here and "blaming others, take responsibility for your own mistake"
> 
> That D* seizes upon this mistake and offers no flexibility with their 8 year customer is the larger issue here. There was no recently installed dish cost to recoup. They really had nothing to lose in satisfying this request and everything to gain. They really could have used another happy customer and dp3's post would have been nonexistent or a much different one. Such service will eventually come back to bite them.
> 
> _If you make customers unhappy in the physical world, they might each tell 6 friends. If you make customers unhappy on the Internet, they can each tell 6,000 friends._ --JEFF BEZOS


First off, the OP takes absolutely no responsibility for his own actions. DirecTV's paperwork doesn't require a lawyer to decipher. It's pretty clear, even the store displays include language that basically says terms apply. It's not up to anyone else to read them aloud to him.

DirecTV didn't seize on a mistake, they followed their own business rules that are clearly spelled out in the agreement. He approached DirecTV, blaming them for _his_ mistake, wanting them to make an exception for him.

DirecTV did not take advantage of him, unless you are arguing that he doesn't have the mental capacity to enter into a contractual agreement, and DirecTV, knowing he didn't understand what he was getting himself into, forced him into an a 2 year commitment.

I guess I would be more forgiving if the OP admitted that he goofed, but he comes off like a guy who blames the police officer when he gets pulled over for speeding. How dare the rules be enforced!


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

I had seen that Upstream. They really had nothing to lose in satisfying this request and everything to gain; or as you said... and then everyone would have been happy.

D* really seems to be penny-wise and dollar-foolish when it comes to building customer loyalty. :icon_stup


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## HIPAR (May 15, 2005)

I'm totally confused. 

I have a simple 18 inch dish and a set top box that I purchased about 10 years ago. I think I own it. The remote control just stopped working. Best Buy sells a new box for about $70. If I buy one of those to replace the one that's not working and call for activation then I'll be in indentured servitude with D* for two more years.. Nonsense

--- CHAS


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

HIPAR said:


> I'm totally confused.
> 
> I have a simple 18 inch dish and a set top box that I purchased about 10 years ago. I think I own it. The remote control just stopped working. Best Buy sells a new box for about $70. If I buy one of those to replace the one that's not working and call for activation then I'll be in indentured servitude with D* for two more years.. Nonsense
> 
> --- CHAS


Hipar -- for a standard receiver you would only be committed for 18 months.

(And committed is probably the right word, especially in light of your signature. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad. You must be, otherwise you wouldn't have come here.)


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## HIPAR (May 15, 2005)

Upstream said:


> Hipar -- for a standard receiver you would only be committed for 18 months.
> 
> (And committed is probably the right word, especially in light of your signature. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad. You must be, otherwise you wouldn't have come here.)


Thanks,

Should I replace that Set Top Box and commit to D*for 18 months or call the cable company?

'That depends a good deal on where you want to get to'

I don't much care about it.

`Then it doesn't matter which way you go'

--- HI Hi CHAS


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## dp3 (Feb 1, 2008)

Upstream said:


> If you read The Consumerist post linked earlier in this thread, you'll see that the only reason the OP wanted out of his commitment was because he changed his mind about upgrading to an HD receiver and decided he really wanted and HD DVR receiver, and DirecTV told him that his commitment prevented him from getting an HD DVR.
> 
> So DirecTV could have avoided this whole thing if they just said "We'll send you an HD DVR, bill you $99 plus $20 shipping, trigger a new 2 year commitment, and send you a box so you can return the HD receiver you've had for 3 days."
> 
> And then everyone would have been happy.


Pretty much, that's all that I wanted. Either that or to return to using my year old HD DVR in one room and my Tivo in the other.

Look, I'm not saying that I didn't make an impulse buy at the Best Buy, just that the BB receipt is confusing to me (in that it seemed to be written for new customers, not someone who was replacing a receiver) and that I misread it. If the initial CSR who activated the receiver had simply said that I was entering into an agreement for 2 years, I wouldn't have activated it.

The box only says that once activated, the receiver can't be returned to BB. The receipt says that I had to activate the receiver. The CSR said nothing. Maybe she thought I know all of the terms of the agreement that was posted to the website after the last time that I agreed to anything...

But at the end of the day, DTV had a lot of chances to say "Sorry you're confused, I see that you really want an additional HD DVR, and are out $99. How about we send you one for the difference in price?. Or how about we just put things back to the way they were and you'll be out the $99 you paid for the receiver?"

DTV never offered any solutions, just a variety of restatements of "You are committed for 2 years, sorry you're upset."


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

dp3, a suggestion if you are interested and I completely understand if you are not at this point.

Sometimes with organizations I will call up and ask the CSR as nicely as I can, "I have a problem, I hope you and I can fix it." 

In your case I'd continue, "I bought this nice HD receiver, but I really miss my DVR features. Is there anyway to trade up so we're both happy?" (or words to that effect.)

This may not work. You may not be interested (I understand.) If you are, I hope you will have the success you want. Yes, it will have a 2 year commitment--on an HD DVR, I don't know anyway around that part.

Good luck,
Tom


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

man_rob said:


> First off, the OP takes absolutely no responsibility for his own actions. DirecTV's paperwork doesn't require a lawyer to decipher. It's pretty clear, even the store displays include language that basically says terms apply. It's not up to anyone else to read them aloud to him.
> 
> DirecTV didn't seize on a mistake, they followed their own business rules that are clearly spelled out in the agreement. He approached DirecTV, blaming them for _his_ mistake, wanting them to make an exception for him.
> 
> ...


So taking responsibility is realizing that he made a mistake and eating it anyway? He should not try to get out of a contract that he did not want because it was his mistake? He should just suck it up? I never said D* took advantage of him, but now that you mention it-- they certainly pressed their advantage on him.

Clearly there are those of us that do not find their practices as self-evident and obvious as you do or threads like this would just not exist. You're also in MD and the OP in CA but you know what his store display did or did not say? Yes the marketing is probably national, but you can't be sure that the display he saw was properly assembled.

Perhaps my word seize was a bit confusing and cause for your confusion as to my post. Would enforce be better?

In simpler terms:

Antecedent: The customer made a mistake. He recognized said mistake and offered to return to the status quo.

Precedent: D* chose to enforce their rules rather than satisfy this customer's request.

I don't believe I ever said D* forced him into anything. I said mislead. And saying nothing of the OP's own we've seen many times over that you can't regulate stupidity, but as a corporation you need to work it out to the lowest common denominator. Witness ludicrous caution hot coffee and smoking causes death labeling.

You have obviously never worked in customer service. I see the rules get broken all the time as the customer is always right-- at least if you want to keep them. I get the distinct impression in reading the OP that D* will have lost at least one customer over this. What good will their rules be if they have no customers?

As to you last statement about speeding tickets that happens all the time, lol. Ever watch courtv or been in court? Unless there is absolutely no doubt, you are innocent. I never just pay a ticket and admit guilt. I am innocent until they prove it even if I know I was speeding. I forsee another 21 state settlement evolving due to the remaining confusions and misleading practices of D*.


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## pratttech (Jan 13, 2008)

dp3 said:


> DTV never offered any solutions, just a variety of restatements of "You are committed for 2 years, sorry you're upset."


This has been my experience as well though not during the initial three days after installation. It was on the fourth that this was pointed out. 

In my case my issues are not with the contract that I knew about and as a new customer had no issue with. I was told one thing by one CSR before enrolling and informed of something different by another after my service was activated.

In the mean time the installation also went ahead without LOS to 119 because of another misleading statement about programming by the installer. I'm not really sure how else I could have checked before I became a customer.

For one thing I had no reason to not trust D* at that time. I didn't discover this board or that I was far from alone in experiencing issues with D* until after I was already "locked in" beyond that third day.

I have called and written numerous times without any fix to my issues. I don't even see progress. Every response is a new CSR name telling me a specialist will contact me, but none ever does.

I will next be writing D* a real snail mail letter with my demands for resolution as that is the necessary next step to legally compel them to take action. I was just hopeful that I could resolve things with them amicably. Unfortunately they seem to prefer antagonistically.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

This is my first post here but I am shocked at how many people are flaming the OP quoting how he should have read the agreement. When I signed up for the forum it stated that there are to be no personal attacks - did the flamers read that agreement?

In any case, I got a receiver off of eBay (and trust me, there was no service contract to read!). As a matter of fact, just checking now there were 164 listings and the first few I checked had no mention of extending your agreement.

When I called DirecTV to replace another receiver, I just wanted to confirm that I have satisfied my contract and to my surprise it had been extended for two years. I received no notification of this and the person on the phone didn't mention it to me at all.

When I told that to the representative she stated "We are not legally obligated to inform you of your contract extension". Perhaps, but is that good business practice??? All these issues could have been avoided if DirecTV would simply state "By agreeing to this service your contract will be extended by two years".

Because of this I plan to leave DirecTV after 6 years as a loyal customer. FIOS TV is now available in my area which I have seen better reviews on as far as picture quality.

Apparently several posters in this thread and DirecTV no nothing about customer service.

There is an old story that says "If you were a supermarket manager and someone brings in milk they bought a week ago and asks to return it what do you do?"

Answer: Take it back - no questions asked. The cost of the milk is nothing compared to the tens of thousands of dollars the customer's future business will bring - not to mention bad reviews to other potential customers.


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

spta97 said:


> This is my first post here but I am shocked at how many people are flaming the OP quoting how he should have read the agreement. When I signed up for the forum it stated that there are to be no personal attacks - did the flamers read that agreement?
> 
> In any case, I got a receiver off of eBay (and trust me, there was no service contract to read!). As a matter of fact, just checking now there were 164 listings and the first few I checked had no mention of extending your agreement.


I would guess that falls under "Let the buyer beware."



spta97 said:


> When I called DirecTV to replace another receiver, I just wanted to confirm that I have satisfied my contract and to my surprise it had been extended for two years. I received no notification of this and the person on the phone didn't mention it to me at all.
> 
> When I told that to the representative she stated "We are not legally obligated to inform you of your contract extension". Perhaps, but is that good business practice??? All these issues could have been avoided if DirecTV would simply state "By agreeing to this service your contract will be extended by two years".
> 
> Because of this I plan to leave DirecTV after 6 years as a loyal customer. FIOS TV is now available in my area which I have seen better reviews on as far as picture quality.


I'm curious why they would extend your contract automatically. Did you receive new equipment at any time during the commitment period?

I'm wanting to understand people's motivation (research, actually), so would you please answer a few questions for me:

- Are you leaving because you don't like the commitment?
- Would you be willing to have fewer channels or poorer PQ for better customer service?
- At the end of your commitment, would you stay with them for another 2 years if there were no commitment requirement?
- Would you be willing to pay more per month in return for no commitment period?

Please, trust me. These are honest questions...not sarcasm. Thanks.


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## Jolliec (Sep 1, 2006)

He stated he has not changed or added any services in 8 years and he is adding an "HD" receiver? How is this working with his 8 yr old dish setup?


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

durl said:


> I'm wanting to understand people's motivation (research, actually), so would you please answer a few questions for me:
> 
> - Are you leaving because you don't like the commitment?
> - Would you be willing to have fewer channels or poorer PQ for better customer service?
> ...


Durl --

I'll address your questions since I am considering leaving DirecTV when my commitment is up.

1) I am considering leaving because I had a string of very poor customer service experiences over the past year and a half. Although, DirecTV eventually resolved most of the problems, they also applied credits to correct billing errors which seemed to count as freebies and limited my ability to get an HR20 at a discount. I considered the $300 upfront fee for the receiver to be uncompetitive with market alternatives in my area. Therefore, I decided I would wait until my commitment was up, and see if there was another provider who could give me a more competitive price and better customer service.

2) I might consider having fewer channels or poorer PQ for better customer service. If the fewer channels eliminated channels I didn't watch, then it wouldn't be a loss. Depending on how much worse the PQ was, it might not be that much of a loss. Right now, DirecTV's SD PQ is not better than the digital cable and Fios alternatives in my area, so better customer service would just be a gain.

3) If there were no commitment, and DirecTV now offered me an HR20/21 at a competitive price, I would probably take it. And I would probably not change services in the next two years. Changing services is a hassle and a risk. But I would want the ability to leave if I ran into the same customer service problems I previously experienced with DirecTV.

4) No, I would not be willing to pay more for no commitment. I can go elsewhere and pay about the same with no commitment. I might be willing to accept a commitment to pay significantly less.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I would not have thought buying your own receiver would trigger any kind of commitment. If it is indeed readily written that it is so, I guess you have to blame yourself.

But while I never have had Direct, I have had Dish almost since their inception. I have bought a few receivers, especially 508's recently to avoid the DVR fee. Not ever have I had to commit to anything. So I have no doubt I too would have been upset to see I now had a commitment with Direct.


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

dp3 said:


> Pretty much, that's all that I wanted. Either that or to return to using my year old HD DVR in one room and my Tivo in the other.
> 
> Look, I'm not saying that I didn't make an impulse buy at the Best Buy, just that the BB receipt is confusing to me (in that it seemed to be written for new customers, not someone who was replacing a receiver) and that I misread it. If the initial CSR who activated the receiver had simply said that I was entering into an agreement for 2 years, I wouldn't have activated it.
> 
> ...


If you have problems with Dirtectv and are unhappy with them and looking for answers, this is the wrong place to find help. As you have seen, the responses vary from blaming you for not reading every piece of literature known to man to you requiring too much for your money.

IMHO, Directv used to be the best in price, PQ, customer service, and equipment stability. Not any more. They have fallen in with the rest, and in some cases, went further into the hole. They may have more HD channels, but as some have pointed out, if you can't get them, don't watch them, or they don't show any HD content, what is the point?

Just let it go before the Directv lovers start bashing and belittling you. This is not a friendly place for open discussion about Directv. It is about praising Directv and bashing those who don't. Look through recent posts and you will find that you are not the only soon to be ex-Directv customer. Good luck to you!


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

I would have to respectfully disagree. I've seen thousands of posts on both sides.



paulsown said:


> This is not a friendly place for open discussion about Directv. It is about praising Directv and bashing those who don't.


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

Canis Lupus said:


> I would have to respectfully disagree. I've seen thousands of posts on both sides.


When someone does not like them or has a problem, they get one message of support and numerous replies of "should have read/researched more". That does nothing for the situation that this OP and many others are in. It just makes them feel like this community thinks they are stupid.

Many people here are just regular customers, not satellite technicians or legal experts. They just want the stuff to work at a reasonable price (by the way, I did not say free or nearly free, reasonable is a relative term depending on who you are. I have not seen anybody I would think is unreasonable) . If they can't get it through Directv , they are looking for help HERE before they leave. And then they get replies of "it's your fault" and "the price you think is fair is ridiculous". Doesn't help anybody.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Fair enough, although I have to say I've visited many more online communities that are MUCH worse. I've found DBSTalk to be pretty well balanced is all I'm saying.


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## cbeckner80 (Apr 19, 2006)

Upstream said:


> You don't know that he signed an extension in the store. He said he didn't.
> 
> I would assume that if he had signed a commitment extension, when he called to complain to DirecTV and escalated the complaint to the Office of the President, that someone would have sent him a copy of what he signed.
> 
> If he signed something, there wouldn't be an issue, because DirecTV would have a copy of what he signed.


Actually I just pruchased an HR-21 last week, and besides the credit card slip, I had to sign another (electronic) slip which the cashier said "tells Direct TV that you have a telephone. Admittedly, I didn't read it, but then I was aware of the two year commitment, anyway, so if it was there, I didn't see it.

Also in response to an earlier post; when I called to activate the HR-21, the csr DID NOT advise me of a two year commitment.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

durl said:


> I would guess that falls under "Let the buyer beware."


I'm in agreement with you. However, I like to reserve the "Caveat Emptor" for shady deals in back alleys and getting more than what you pay for.



durl said:


> I'm curious why they would extend your contract automatically.


I was as well! After many calls apparently their rule is they will extend your contract when you "Upgrade" equipment. Because this was my first HD DVR it was considered an upgrade compared to my SD Tivos.



durl said:


> Did you receive new equipment at any time during the commitment period?


By receive I am assuming you mean from DirecTV - the answer to that is no. I did however purchase equipment on my own from an online resource that was very clear about the extension of my contract (which I was fine with at the time).



durl said:


> I'm wanting to understand people's motivation (research, actually), so would you please answer a few questions for me:
> 
> - Are you leaving because you don't like the commitment?


This is a majority of my reasoning. One year sounds reasonable, two is just too much at this point in time. FIOS is really gaining ground and the playfield is changing every day. Two years is probably longer than a new HDTV will still be "new"  Moreover, I am hearing that the signal on DirecTV is compressed whereas FIOS it is not - resulting in a better picture.



durl said:


> - Would you be willing to have fewer channels or poorer PQ for better customer service?


At this point I almost am. However, just because DirecTV has the most HD channels now, I do not know that they can make that same claim for the next two years. And don't misunderstand, Verizon customer service is aweful. However, I know exactly what I am getting into and I have yet to have an installer or service rep actually lie to me.



durl said:


> - At the end of your commitment, would you stay with them for another 2 years if there were no commitment requirement?


Yes, assuming that the FIOS service was not as good as DirectTV. It is the shady business practices that are my biggest problem. They are intentionally misleading their customers.



durl said:


> - Would you be willing to pay more per month in return for no commitment period?


Yes, not a substancial amount more, but more.

When I first had DirecTV I was so happy with them I would scream from the roof tops about how great they were and recommend them to everyone I could. The company was honest about their business practices, and I knew exactly what I was getting into.

The new business model is intentionally meant to trick customers into commitments without informing them (ie: "We are not legally required to inform you"). That is a company I do not want to do business with.


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## BKC (Dec 12, 2007)

How about if a receiver is defective at some point during the 2 years or beyond that? Is there another commitment period started at the time it's replaced? The CSR's tell you the receivers are covered forever.....


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

BKC said:


> How about if a receiver is defective at some point during the 2 years or beyond that? Is there another commitment period started at the time it's replaced? The CSR's tell you the receivers are covered forever.....


If you have the protection plan there is no charge and no new contract.

If you don't have the protection plan you have to pay $20 shipping and sign a new contract.


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## dp3 (Feb 1, 2008)

durl said:


> I would guess that falls under "Let the buyer beware."
> 
> I'm curious why they would extend your contract automatically. Did you receive new equipment at any time during the commitment period?
> 
> ...


Please see my answers to each question above


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## dazbert (Feb 2, 2007)

> (from tim81)
> directv customer agreement


That customer agreement has a Copyright of 1999 - it's 8 years OUT OF DATE!

Check the DirecTV site for the latest one.

BTW, I have just been on the phone with D* for over an hour trying to figure out when and how they implemented the "Lease Upgrade" contract change. Apparently March 1, 2006 was the date, but the agreement can't be found online any more. The latest one (April 2007) does not clearly state how a product is owned vs leased. I purchased an HR-20 in Dec 06 and the box did not have any labels/tags/markings related to leasing, and I'm hunting down the receipts for the thing to see what Best Buy had me sign.
The whole thing smacks of underhand tactics. I just hope I can get out of my D* nightmare and more to AT&T's new fiber based system.


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## paja (Oct 23, 2006)

dp3 said:


> I think I'm done with DirecTv.
> 
> A few weeks ago, I purchased a new HD receiver from Best Buy to replace my 8 year old Tivo.
> 
> ...


I left D a year ago after being jerked around when I was supposed to have a hd dvr upgrade.This after having been a good customer for many years. Went to E and could not be happier. The 622 is one of the best pieces of equipment going. After I cancelled D, I got a call on a Sat. from someone in the presidents office who listened to my story and then tried to get me to stay. It was too late as I had E already installed and running. I've gotten about 7 or 8 calls throughotu the year asking me to come back. Don't let yourself get pushed around. There are alternatives.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

paja said:


> I left D a year ago after being jerked around when I was supposed to have a hd dvr upgrade.This after having been a good customer for many years. Went to E and could not be happier. The 622 is one of the best pieces of equipment going. After I cancelled D, I got a call on a Sat. from someone in the presidents office who listened to my story and then tried to get me to stay. It was too late as I had E already installed and running. I've gotten about 7 or 8 calls throughotu the year asking me to come back. Don't let yourself get pushed around. There are alternatives.


This is exactly what they are doing to their customer base. I agree that you should always read the fine print but to be honest I don't look at my statements since I had the automatic billing setup - I just looked at my credit card to ensure it was the same amount I agreed to.

No other vendor that I deal with has changed the terms so drastically and caused me to go from a loyal customer to one that dispises them and their underhanded tactics.

Customer loyalty is what breeds revenues - not cancellation fees. Especially when they are no longer the only game in town. Regardless if we (the customer) are legally wrong in this case, DirecTV is wrong in customer service. The latter being the most important to a businesses survival.


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## BKC (Dec 12, 2007)

BMoreRavens said:


> If you have the protection plan there is no charge and no new contract.
> 
> If you don't have the protection plan you have to pay $20 shipping and sign a new contract.


I see, buy the protection plan or be with them for life huh? lol


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

spta97 said:


> This is exactly what they are doing to their customer base. I agree that you should always read the fine print but to be honest I don't look at my statements since I had the automatic billing setup - I just looked at my credit card to ensure it was the same amount I agreed to.
> 
> No other vendor that I deal with has changed the terms so drastically and caused me to go from a loyal customer to one that dispises them and their underhanded tactics.
> 
> Customer loyalty is what breeds revenues - not cancellation fees. Especially when they are no longer the only game in town. Regardless if we (the customer) are legally wrong in this case, DirecTV is wrong in customer service. The latter being the most important to a businesses survival.


You said it better than I could ever have. I agree wholeheartedly. To the OP, there are MANY who feel as you do. Search around these forums.

Directv has turned into the "used car dealership" of pay TV service.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

BKC said:


> BMoreRavens said:
> 
> 
> > If you have the protection plan there is no charge and no new contract.
> ...


Nahh, just dont get all pissy when you're told that the cancellation is $480.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

That's why some call it "indentured servitude"


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

paulsown said:


> You said it better than I could ever have. I agree wholeheartedly. To the OP, there are MANY who feel as you do. Search around these forums.
> 
> Directv has turned into the "used car dealership" of pay TV service.


That's giving used car dealerships a bad name :lol:


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

One of the shocking business practices is how when you purchase one of these "leased" receivers at Best Buy and you cancel the service you have to return it DirecTV with no refund! AND you are still paying the cancellation fee!

I would be curious to see if that language is stated in the Best Buy agreement.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

Here is a link that has a bunch of customer horror stories. I was shocked when I found out how many people were impacted by this:

CLICKY


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

spta97 said:


> One of the shocking business practices is how when you purchase one of these "leased" receivers at Best Buy and you cancel the service you have to return it DirecTV with no refund! AND you are still paying the cancellation fee!
> 
> I would be curious to see if that language is stated in the Best Buy agreement.


You pay a one-time up front lease fee...
Its not a security deposit...

Seperately, if you cancel within your committed time, you're expected to pay a prorated rate of the time you committed for.

Im not saying I like it, but that doesnt mean they cant/wont do it (obviously, they can and do)


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## Mike728 (Oct 29, 2007)

spta97 said:


> In any case, I got a receiver off of eBay (and trust me, there was no service contract to read!). As a matter of fact, just checking now there were 164 listings and the first few I checked had no mention of extending your agreement.[/COLOR]


I do agree with some of your complaints regarding DirecTV's poor customer communication and service. But, buying a receiver off of Ebay and expecting everything to be "up front" is a little crazy. :grin:


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

CJTE said:


> You pay a one-time up front lease fee...
> Its not a security deposit...
> 
> Seperately, if you cancel within your committed time, you're expected to pay a prorated rate of the time you committed for.
> ...


I wonder if the sales reps at Best Buy are asking customers "Do you want to *LEASE *a DirecTV HD DVR??" I'm willing to bet that they are asking customers if they want to BUY one.

Initial leasing fees, in my experiance, typically do not amount to 40% - 50% the value of the item. I can see where this would lead to confusion if you were to shell out $300 most people would think they are buying.

Imagine going to lease a car and they ask 50% of the price as a down payment?


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

Just curious, has anyone ever refused to pay the ETF? I con't think they'd take you to court over it.


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## Mike728 (Oct 29, 2007)

dodge boy said:


> Just curious, has anyone ever refused to pay the ETF? I con't think they'd take you to court over it.


I'll bet your credit wouldn't look too healthy afterwards.


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## upnorth (Jun 21, 2006)

spta97 said:


> Here is a link that has a bunch of customer horror stories. I was shocked when I found out how many people were impacted by this:
> 
> CLICKY


Or you could try this 
Link


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## PSUfan (Aug 22, 2006)

The sad part of all of this is that so many of us are accepting of the 2 year commitment! What are our rights? What is acceptable for us to breach our "contract"? If it is expected that we honor our side of the deal, what must they honor? For example, with due cause, I can eliminate a service contract with a company that I use for commercial cleaning. As long as I document the complaints, provide them with ample time to correct the issues, and continue with feedback I'm within my rights to cancel their service if the issues are not addressed. I'm certain of this because it has held up in a court of law in my past experiences. (For you legal junkies out their, I apologize for leaving out all the "guts")

With that said, what must they deliver to us? Is is 4 storms without reception and we can chose another service provider? Is it service call after service call with issues with our DVR not recording correctly? Is it promising delivery of the HD channels on set date and then changing it over and over again? Is it charging me extra for the damn HD channels that I had 1.5 years ago in the "HD Package" and then tacking on another HD package for the channels I waited 3 years for? WHAT ARE OUR RIGHTS AND WHEN CAN WE CANCEL THE DARN CONTRACT DIRECTV? 

Okay, so maybe overly passionate, but are you serious, the guy was ran over and we have members of the forum that think it's okay because it should be common knowledge! There in lies the problem.........


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

PSUfan said:


> The sad part of all of this is that so many of us are accepting of the 2 year commitment! What are our rights? What is acceptable for us to breach our "contract"? If it is expected that we honor our side of the deal, what must they honor? For example, with due cause, I can eliminate a service contract with a company that I use for commercial cleaning. As long as I document the complaints, provide them with ample time to correct the issues, and continue with feedback I'm within my rights to cancel their service if the issues are not addressed. I'm certain of this because it has held up in a court of law in my past experiences. (For you legal junkies out their, I apologize for leaving out all the "guts")
> 
> With that said, what must they deliver to us? Is is 4 storms without reception and we can chose another service provider? Is it service call after service call with issues with our DVR not recording correctly? Is it promising delivery of the HD channels on set date and then changing it over and over again? Is it charging me extra for the damn HD channels that I had 1.5 years ago in the "HD Package" and then tacking on another HD package for the channels I waited 3 years for? WHAT ARE OUR RIGHTS AND WHEN CAN WE CANCEL THE DARN CONTRACT DIRECTV?
> 
> Okay, so maybe overly passionate, but are you serious, the guy was ran over and we have members of the forum that think it's okay because it should be common knowledge! There in lies the problem.........


When they violate the terms of the agreement. Storm are covered because it is an act of God. Price increases are covered because it says right in the agreement that prices are subject to change. It is continually amazing that anyone would consider taking it to court. I dont know of a lawyer in the world that would handle a case and its court time for at the most 480 dollars. If you are not happy then leave. You have many other options and hopefully one of them would be appropriate for you. Why someone would continue to deal with a company if they feel they are shady, or slimy or dishonest is beyond me. It isnt sad that many people are accepting a 2 year commitment, I prefer their programming to my other options, period. I certainly have had bad experiences with CSR's over the last 5 years, and I have had similar experiences with just about every single company I have dealt with in my life. But to simply stand up and squak about your rights is crazy. Your right is to terminate if you feel wronged. If you choose not to pay the ETF, there are many examples of people who have gotten out of it. Ift was done exactly as you say, call and document. And that applies to anyone. You are not going to get out of any firm commitment by just saying you want out, you are going to have to prove why you should be let out. Of course the agreements are one sided. Show me one that isnt that doesnt have tradeoffs? Good grief, to get so worked up about something that is 100% in your control is just amazing.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

jimb726 said:


> When they violate the terms of the agreement. Storm are covered because it is an act of God. Price increases are covered because it says right in the agreement that prices are subject to change. It is continually amazing that anyone would consider taking it to court. I dont know of a lawyer in the world that would handle a case and its court time for at the most 480 dollars. If you are not happy then leave. You have many other options and hopefully one of them would be appropriate for you. Why someone would continue to deal with a company if they feel they are shady, or slimy or dishonest is beyond me. It isnt sad that many people are accepting a 2 year commitment, I prefer their programming to my other options, period. I certainly have had bad experiences with CSR's over the last 5 years, and I have had similar experiences with just about every single company I have dealt with in my life. But to simply stand up and squak about your rights is crazy. Your right is to terminate if you feel wronged. If you choose not to pay the ETF, there are many examples of people who have gotten out of it. Ift was done exactly as you say, call and document. And that applies to anyone. You are not going to get out of any firm commitment by just saying you want out, you are going to have to prove why you should be let out. Of course the agreements are one sided. Show me one that isnt that doesnt have tradeoffs? Good grief, to get so worked up about something that is 100% in your control is just amazing.


$480 is a lot of money to a lot of people. That makes it not so easy for people to back out.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

HawkEye19 said:


> Worry not, I'll attack until the day is done. Especially when it comes to posters who do not see D* customer service faults.
> 
> After clicking on each of your hyperlinks, they all say "lease upgrade fee". Nowhere is there a write-up as to what the "lease upgrade fee" is. The commintment is not a secret, but one has to dig for it. Especially when you use the poor examples you just cited.


Hi, Mr. Ergen. Stirring up the pot a bit, huh?


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

spta97 said:


> I wonder if the sales reps at Best Buy are asking customers "Do you want to *LEASE *a DirecTV HD DVR??" I'm willing to bet that they are asking customers if they want to BUY one.
> 
> Initial leasing fees, in my experiance, typically do not amount to 40% - 50% the value of the item. I can see where this would lead to confusion if you were to shell out $300 most people would think they are buying.
> 
> Imagine going to lease a car and they ask 50% of the price as a down payment?


Weve broken the car lease model over and over and over.
And, I bet the Best Buy sales reps say it the correct way. They may not say "up front lease fee" But they dont say "own" either.
Or atleast, not the general consensus


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

spta97 said:


> $480 is a lot of money to a lot of people. That makes it not so easy for people to back out.


It's not supposed to be easy for people to back out, hence their use of the word 'commitment'. And satellite isn't a bargain basement TV service, that's what cable is for. That's like buying a Porsche and complaining the oil changes are too expensive...


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

PSUfan said:


> The sad part of all of this is that so many of us are accepting of the 2 year commitment! What are our rights?


This may sound obvious, but you have the right to choose another provider. No one is forcing anyone to sign up with Directv.



PSUfan said:


> What is acceptable for us to breach our "contract"? If it is expected that we honor our side of the deal, what must they honor? For example, with due cause, I can eliminate a service contract with a company that I use for commercial cleaning. As long as I document the complaints, provide them with ample time to correct the issues, and continue with feedback I'm within my rights to cancel their service if the issues are not addressed. I'm certain of this because it has held up in a court of law in my past experiences. (For you legal junkies out their, I apologize for leaving out all the "guts")


It depends on the structure of the contract. Also, a commercial cleaning company has far fewer elements to consider than a televion content provider, as well as much higher costs for which to account. Breaking an apartment lease and sometimes an auto lease isn't without penalty. Even paying off your mortgage before the period is over can incur penalties.



PSUfan said:


> With that said, what must they deliver to us? Is is 4 storms without reception and we can chose another service provider? Is it service call after service call with issues with our DVR not recording correctly? Is it promising delivery of the HD channels on set date and then changing it over and over again? Is it charging me extra for the damn HD channels that I had 1.5 years ago in the "HD Package" and then tacking on another HD package for the channels I waited 3 years for? WHAT ARE OUR RIGHTS AND WHEN CAN WE CANCEL THE DARN CONTRACT DIRECTV?


The flipside of this argument is that Directv has increased the number of available channels without considerable price increases. New features like MediaShare, DVR Scheduler, and DoD have been made available at no cost. Regarding the few HD channels that moved to a higher tier, Directv added dozens of other HD channels at no additional cost. I don't enjoy price increases as much as the next guy. Still, we can't ignore those things that have been added to our service.

No provider is perfect, including Directv. You go with the one that provides the content you want at the price you're willing to pay.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

Redlinetire said:


> It's not supposed to be easy for people to back out, hence their use of the word 'commitment'. And satellite isn't a bargain basement TV service, that's what cable is for. That's like buying a Porsche and complaining the oil changes are too expensive...


No, it's like leasing a Porsche that costs $100,000 and paying a $50,000 non-refundable lease initiation fee and giving the Porsche back if you do not want to stay in the lease - despite the fact you never signed anything.

I am in agreement that you will never please anyone. But being in customer service your mission is to please as many customers as you can. The simple task of informing customers "Just so you are aware, activating this receiver will extend your contract for two years" would have avoided all of these headaches.

By them not informing their customers of that, they are counting on the fact that most people are not searching their website monthly and deciphering the cryptic service agreement.

*How many of the nay-sayers can say that it would be bad practice for DirecTV to inform their customers of the committment at the point before they activate service?*

The fact of the matter is DirecTV is intenionally doing an underhanded business practice. Just because something is legal does not make it ethical.


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

spta97 said:


> *How many of the nay-sayers can say that it would be bad practice for DirecTV to inform their customers of the committment at the point before they activate service?*


I believe it would be a good practice. But I've been told every time I activated equipment so maybe I'm not the right person to ask.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

durl said:


> I believe it would be a good practice. But I've been told every time I activated equipment so maybe I'm not the right person to ask.


Have you activated equipment under the new lease model? When I questioned about this practice the representative said "We are not legally required to tell you". :nono2:


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

durl said:


> The flipside of this argument is that Directv has increased the number of available channels without considerable price increases. New features like MediaShare, DVR Scheduler, and DoD have been made available at no cost. Regarding the few HD channels that moved to a higher tier, Directv added dozens of other HD channels at no additional cost. I don't enjoy price increases as much as the next guy. Still, we can't ignore those things that have been added to our service.
> 
> No provider is perfect, including Directv. You go with the one that provides the content you want at the price you're willing to pay.


They have raised prices, seems like they do every year. The increase may not be linked to specific functions or channels, but they are there. And then there is that entire scam with the HD channels and the changed HD package.

Of course, Directv could eliminate rate increases by just removing one or two channels a year from the packages and then charging to get them back. That way, they would never need to raise the initial rate. Would not be surprised to see that AT ALL. Oh wait, they did that already.

Many (or all) of these new features are still in BETA (I think). I would not be surprised if Directv tried to charge extra for some or all of these in the future.

I agree, no provider is perfect. Directv used to be above the fray when it came to customer service and price. Not any more. They try to gouge customers and lengthen contracts through any tactics they can, and the price increases have brought them equal in price with everyone else. Directv no longer has an advantage in these and most other areas. They may have more HD, but that will only be for so long. When the others catch up, Directv is going to have a bunch of pissed off customers wanting to get out. And they will be even more angry when Directv tries to take back the receiver the customer thought they purchased. I predict a train wreck coming.

I think someone will file a class action lawsuit.


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## djstough (Nov 27, 2006)

spta97 said:


> No, it's like leasing a Porsche that costs $100,000 and paying a $50,000 non-refundable lease initiation fee and giving the Porsche back if you do not want to stay in the lease - despite the fact you never signed anything


And that is exactly how a car lease works! You pay a down payment (3-4k is more typical for a typical car.) You make monthly payments on it. At the end, you give it back. You can pay more to keep it, yes, but most don't. This is just an open-ended lease.

If you turn it in early, like a car, you pay for uncharged [email protected]


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

It seems pretty straight forward to me.



> Programming Commitment & Activation
> As a DIRECTV customer, you agree to receive certain DIRECTV programming, activate your service and return leased equipment.
> 
> Programming Commitment
> ...


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

spta97 said:


> *How many of the nay-sayers can say that it would be bad practice for DirecTV to inform their customers of the committment at the point before they activate service?*





durl said:


> I believe it would be a good practice. But I've been told every time I activated equipment so maybe I'm not the right person to ask.


I agree with that. I got some receivers before they were putting stickers on the boxes, and some after. When there was an installer involved, I signed a sheet outlining that it was a lease and the terms. There were a few times I went through the ordering process on the web site and was directed to read the terms and conditions (of course, it was my choice whether to do so). I've also seen that info presented on Best Buy & Circuit City's web sites. I don't monitor those sites on a regular basis, so I can only speak to the times I actually viewed them. I've activated receivers by phone and was always told the terms - even sometimes trying to cut them off and assure them I understood only to be told that they HAVE to read that. And every time I've activated a receiver I received a copy of the terms and conditions via snail mail.

I'm not saying people are lying, but given my experience it amazes me that there are people who actually manage to avoid all those points of notification.


spta97 said:


> The fact of the matter is DirecTV is intenionally doing an underhanded business practice. Just because something is legal does not make it ethical.


I refuse to believe that DirecTV is in any way intentionally misleading their customers about the commitments and running a campaign of "underhanded business practices". For all the people that report having never been told/informed/read/heard about "this whole commitment thing" there are many reponses to the fact that people are being informed of this. And I also seriously doubt that in some board room at DirecTv an idea was floated about "let's fail to inform 10% of our customers about commitments just to see what we can get away with". Because if they *are* "intentionally doing an underhanded business practice", they've also intended to only do it to a small percentage of their customer base.


spta97 said:


> Have you activated equipment under the new lease model? When I questioned about this practice the representative said "We are not legally required to tell you". :nono2:


Yes I have, and as mentioned, I have always been informed and most times in several different ways (to the point of it being obnoxious!).

(And as to the rep telling you that they are not legally required to tell you about a commitment, I would bet that if you talked to 4 more reps that all 4 would not tell you they are not legally obligated to inform you. We've all seen that all reps, unfortunately, are not always 100% reliable with their information. I think it's a pretty huge leap to try to support your feelings that DirecTV is intentionally screwing with people based on one comment from a CSR.)


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

man_rob said:


> It seems pretty straight forward to me.


Is there a section that says despite where you purchase equipment it is all owned by DirecTV? The new lease model took me (and others) by surprise.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

JLucPicard said:


> Yes I have, and as mentioned, I have always been informed and most times in several different ways (to the point of it being obnoxious!).
> 
> (And as to the rep telling you that they are not legally required to tell you about a commitment, I would bet that if you talked to 4 more reps that all 4 would not tell you they are not legally obligated to inform you. We've all seen that all reps, unfortunately, are not always 100% reliable with their information. I think it's a pretty huge leap to try to support your feelings that DirecTV is intentionally screwing with people based on one comment from a CSR.)


I am not lying, nor do I feel the other hundreds of people who said they were not informed are lying as well. I too agree that it is impossible to formulate an opinion based on one conversation of the CSR not informing me, or even the other one that said they didn't have to. However, I realized this is happening to hundreds of people - that's when I formed my opinion.

Let me ask you, was the equipment that you purchased from DirecTV? I wonder if the issue is somewhat limited to purchases from other retailers. That rep who told me that they are not required to inform me of the contract also said:

"It is the responsibility of the person selling you the equipment to tell you about the manditory 2 year contract extension. However, most of them are not aware of it so they do not say anything."

If a low level rep at DirecTV is aware that their resellers are not informing customers of agreement requirements, then certianly Sr. Management is. It is ethical for them to advise customers if they know there is a break down of communication - it doesn't take but a second.

Moreover, when I activated my replacement SD Tivo (now aware of their practices) I made sure to ask "Will activiting this Tivo extend my service agreement?". There response was "It shouldn't". I was hoping for a more definitive answer than that considering a CSR is my only interface to DirecTV.


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## spta97 (Feb 7, 2008)

djstough said:


> And that is exactly how a car lease works! You pay a down payment (3-4k is more typical for a typical car.) You make monthly payments on it. At the end, you give it back. You can pay more to keep it, yes, but most don't. This is just an open-ended lease.
> 
> If you turn it in early, like a car, you pay for uncharged [email protected]


My point was the whole not signing thing and the fact that the cost of the item is so high it can lead people to beleive they are buying it. I was not aware that the HDDVRs were $700.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

When Tivo HD DVRs sell at Circuit City and Best Buy for $299, it is easy for a customer to think that the DirecTV DVR for $299 is also a purchase, not a lease, unless it it clearly made obvious to them.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

Upstream said:


> When Tivo HD DVRs sell at Circuit City and Best Buy for $299, it is easy for a customer to think that the DirecTV DVR for $299 is also a purchase, not a lease, unless it it clearly made obvious to them.


You know, that's a pretty good point. +1


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## mikebu (Feb 9, 2008)

What's too bad is that if you had called up DirecTV and asked them to convince you not to switch to <YourLocalCableCompany> they would have given you the equipment for free. My old SD Tivo died this week and upgrading my old dish to the new 5 LNB one and buying a new HD DVR would have cost me $300. I called them up and told them I was thinking of switching to Comcast and they gave that to me along with a new HD Non-DVR receiver for $20.


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## PSUfan (Aug 22, 2006)

jimb726 said:


> When they violate the terms of the agreement. Storm are covered because it is an act of God. Price increases are covered because it says right in the agreement that prices are subject to change. It is continually amazing that anyone would consider taking it to court. I dont know of a lawyer in the world that would handle a case and its court time for at the most 480 dollars. If you are not happy then leave. You have many other options and hopefully one of them would be appropriate for you. Why someone would continue to deal with a company if they feel they are shady, or slimy or dishonest is beyond me. It isnt sad that many people are accepting a 2 year commitment, I prefer their programming to my other options, period. I certainly have had bad experiences with CSR's over the last 5 years, and I have had similar experiences with just about every single company I have dealt with in my life. But to simply stand up and squak about your rights is crazy. Your right is to terminate if you feel wronged. If you choose not to pay the ETF, there are many examples of people who have gotten out of it. Ift was done exactly as you say, call and document. And that applies to anyone. You are not going to get out of any firm commitment by just saying you want out, you are going to have to prove why you should be let out. Of course the agreements are one sided. Show me one that isnt that doesnt have tradeoffs? Good grief, to get so worked up about something that is 100% in your control is just amazing.


Jim, thanks for validating my point. I'm very clear on the fact that I have a "choice"! No amazement here, just stating my feelings on the situation. It would seem to me that the members of this forum have some sort of value to Directv. The point I was making is that the initial 2 year contract is one thing, but linking that same agreement to most every change is another. Sorry I chose to voice what I feel my rights to be, apparently in your opinion, I should not have any in this matter.


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## Stoodo (Jun 18, 2006)

Remember when companies used to keep customers by providing them with good service and fair prices rather than hold them captive by a contract?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Stoodo said:


> Remember when companies used to keep customers by providing them with good service and fair prices rather than hold them captive by a contract?


No. 

I get a fair price and good service now.

That premise would only be something remembered by people who have no cell phone, Internet, or other subscriber service where this has been a common practice now for over a decade.

DirecTV didn't invent it by any means - they simply adopted a common business practice to stablize their customer base. No one I know had a gun put to their head to sign up.

In contrast to the OP, I've been with them since the beginning, and I'm not fed up or leaving.


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

Stoodo said:


> Remember when companies used to keep customers by providing them with good service and fair prices rather than hold them captive by a contract?


I remember when Directv used to do that.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

Upstream said:


> When Tivo HD DVRs sell at Circuit City and Best Buy for $299, it is easy for a customer to think that the DirecTV DVR for $299 is also a purchase, not a lease, unless it it clearly made obvious to them.


Only for those who don't bother to read over the things that they sign off on. I picked up my HR21 a few days ago at Best Buy. Before the price ever rang up, the girl working the register made me sign the keypad (the same one you swipe your credit card on)explaining the lease agreement.

I would have only myself to blame if I hadn't read the terms before signing.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

spta97 said:


> Is there a section that says despite where you purchase equipment it is all owned by DirecTV? The new lease model took me (and others) by surprise.


Um...It's the first thing in the product description on the Best Buy site. Kind of hard to miss.


> Product Features
> 
> _Prices shown are "lease upgrade fees_." Additional $4.99/mo. lease fee applies for each DIRECTV Receiver you add. Programming commitment required. See terms.


On Circuit City's site, it in the header, again, hard to miss.



> DirecTV R15 Receiver/Digital Video Recorder _Equipment Leasing_
> 
> http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Dire...33621/catOid/-12877/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

spta97 said:


> Have you activated equipment under the new lease model? When I questioned about this practice the representative said "We are not legally required to tell you". :nono2:


Yes. An H15 (2 years ago) and an HR20 (in the past 12 months). The R15 was offered to me and the contract was mentioned. I accepted. The HR20 was to replace a defective HR10. And I was told that it would require a 2-year commitment.

I'm not saying that some people aren't told about the commitment. All I can say is that I have been told by different reps on different occassions.


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

man_rob said:


> Um...It's the first thing in the product description on the Best Buy site. Kind of hard to miss.
> 
> On Circuit City's site, it in the header, again, hard to miss.


Any one else notice the customer reviews of the R15 on the Circuity City website?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :hurah:

Much more telling of the average customer experience than this website.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

paulsown said:


> Any one else notice the customer reviews of the R15 on the Circuity City website?
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :hurah:
> 
> Much more telling of the average customer experience than this website.


And, you bring this up in a thread about leases and commitments because you think somehow the product rating is causing people to miss the fact that it is clearly stated that the equipment is leased? Or are you just tossing out non sequitur jabs at DirecTV for some weird reason? Maybe you have turrets or something?


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

man_rob said:


> And, you bring this up in a thread about leases and commitments because you think somehow the product rating is causing people to miss the fact that it is clearly stated that the equipment is leased? Or are you just tossing out non sequitur jabs at DirecTV for some weird reason? Maybe you have turrets or something?


Actually, if you READ the reviews, many are upset about the 2 year commitment.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

paulsown said:


> Actually, if you READ the reviews, many are upset about the 2 year commitment.


Relatively few mention that. Your afterthoughts just give you away.

Again, the fact that the receivers are leased and that there is a two year commitment is made very clear. If people choose to ignore that, its on them.


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## josetann (Oct 2, 2006)

I used to work in retail and also in a call center, so I can tell you that there are good and bad employees in both. Some will take their time and explain everything to you, others will rush it through and miss important stuff (so they can move on to another sale if they're in retail, or keep their call times down if they're in customer service). Then there's people who are just not informed, whether because they don't pay attention, or because they haven't been trained on the new stuff happening.

I do find it possible that he bought a receiver at Best Buy that didn't have any signage explaining that it was a lease, if/when he signed the electronic thing for the terms, the sales person could have stated "it's just saying you agree to activate it and have a phone line" or something like that. How many of us really read those things all the way through? And I definitely believe he could have activated it without being told of a commitment over the phone. When I called DirecTV about my move, nothing was ever said about a contract extension. I only found out about my contract getting extended last month, and was told it was extended for 2 years. They asked if I had any receivers replaced, I said no, they said it should have only been extended for a year then. I was offered an HR20 for free (well I'd pay $100 plus shipping and tax, then get $10/mo off for a year, so basically just paying tax), I considered it and accepted. Had customer service taken a "you extended your contract, tough" stance, I would likely have dropped DirecTV, gone with Dish, and when they tried to collect on the ETF I'd send them the recording of my conversation with them when they scheduled the Mover's Connection install. Wasn't told once about any contract extension, that I needed to go to the site to read about terms, etc. I'm sure many would say I didn't do my research first, it was my responsibility, etc. Since when should we have to spend as much time searching for and reading all the fine print for our satellite service as we do when buying a new house or car?

Anyways, I can believe that fault lies with both parties here. The OP for not reading every last word of everything he signed, even if he was told it's just for making sure he activates or has a phone line, even if he would hold up the line, even if his eyesight wasn't the best and he had to call someone over to read that itty bitty fine print, whatever. It's also DirecTV's fault if they didn't tell him when he activated the receiver that his contract would be extended.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

_First line_ of the mover's connection terms:



> Movers Connection Terms and Conditions
> 
> DIRECTV MOVERS CONNECTION: Free installation with an 18-month service commitment for standard receivers (24 months for advanced products).
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/moreInfoText.jsp?assetId=1440002


This information is by no means buried, or hard to find.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

josetann said:


> I was offered an HR20 for free (well I'd pay $100 plus shipping and tax, then get $10/mo off for a year, so basically just paying tax), I considered it and accepted.


Did they tell you that your acceptance of the offer triggers a new 2-year commitment?


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

man_rob said:


> _First line_ of the mover's connection terms:
> 
> This information is by no means buried, or hard to find.


It is real hard to find if you aren't on the internet, but instead you call 1-800-DIR-ECTV, tell them you are moving, and want to find out about how to continue your service at your new home.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

But Man-Rob, you are correct that it is easy to find on the internet. If you go to Directv.com, and click on customer service and then click on moving, the programming commitment is very clear. It is right there in gray print on the gray background at the bottom of the picture.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

Upstream said:


> It is real hard to find if you aren't on the internet, but instead you call 1-800-DIR-ECTV, tell them you are moving, and want to find out about how to continue your service at your new home.


Even if the CSR didn't mention it, unlikely, but possible. The information is still in the terms and conditions that are made readily available before signing on the dotted line. If you don't read what you sign, you've got no one to blame but yourself.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

Upstream said:


> But Man-Rob, you are correct that it is easy to find on the internet. If you go to Directv.com, and click on customer service and then click on moving, the programming commitment is very clear. It is right there in gray print on the gray background at the bottom of the picture.


And don't forget the bright blue link at the bottom of the page. I'm sure you just _accidentally_ left that off your screen capture.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

man_rob said:


> before signing on the dotted line. If you don't read what you sign, you've got no one to blame but yourself.


Sign what? As many (including me) have noted in this thread, we have received receivers without signing anything. More to the point, if a customer signed an agreement, then when they call to complain, DirecTV only has to send them a copy of what they signed with their signature. Do you think Josetann would be claiming he knew nothing about the contract extension if he had signed something, and DirecTV sent him a copy of his signature when he questioned it?


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

man_rob said:


> And don't forget the bright blue link at the bottom of the page. I'm sure you just _accidentally_ left that off your screen capture.


I wasn't trying to hide anything. The only things I cropped out of the screen capture were (a) personally identifying information at the top of the screen, (b) my Windows toolbars at the bottom of the screen, (c) advertising on the right of the screen and blank space at the left of the screen, so the picture wouldn't be too wide.

To see the light blue link to the "*DIRECTV Movers Connection™ Terms and Conditions" requires me to scroll down, so it wasn't in my screen capture.

But as I said, the commitment information is there on the screen, and is in the picture I posted. If you go to the internet, you will see it. Of course that doesn't help people who use the telephone without going to the internet.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

Upstream said:


> Sign what? As many (including me) have noted in this thread, we have received receivers without signing anything. More to the point, if a customer signed an agreement, then when they call to complain, DirecTV only has to send them a copy of what they signed with their signature. Do you think Josetann would be claiming he knew nothing about the contract extension if he had signed something, and DirecTV sent him a copy of his signature when he questioned it?


How did you get a receiver and installation if you didn't sign anything?

The CRS told me I'd have a two year commitment, and the installer had me sign the agreement when he came to do the installation.

Retail stores displays clearly say that terms and conditions apply. If you don't bother following up on what the terms and conditions are, then again the fault falls on you.


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## josetann (Oct 2, 2006)

It's like saying you should have known that new Nissan Altima you bought has a warranty that's only good if you don't drive out of state. I mean, the information is plastered all over Nissan's site (click this, click that, then click this, there you go); why would they need to tell you anything at all about that at the dealer? Why shouldn't I be able to call DirecTV, ask about moving, and not have them give me accurate info? Like I said, no one said anything about a contract extension, no one said anything about needing to go to the site to read any terms and conditions. They just needed the new address, told me what day was available, and that was it. Now, if I had scheduled it online, that would have been a different story. BTW, did all the fanboys miss where they had signed me up for a two year contract, when the CSR herself stated it should have just been for one? Just a little more proof that DirecTV isn't perfect. As far as signing anything, I did read what I signed when the installer was done, it was basically just saying that he had completed the work that he was supposed to. Besides, it would have been a bit late in the game to have me sign a contract extension after the work was already done, wouldn't it? Do all the work then ask me to sign a contract? In case anyone reads this wrong, again I say nothing was signed that said anything about extending a contract.

Yes, yes, I know there's info online. That should only count as binding if you place the transaction online. Setup a Mover's Connection online, ok there should be a screen that makes you agree to the commitment (not even sure you can schedule it online). Buy a receiver from BestBuy.com, then you can point out that all the info is right there. But if you call DirecTV or walk into Best Buy, that's a whole different story. And I'm saying that the experience can be inconsistent. Just because your CSR told you about the commitment, or your Best Buy has signage up, doesn't mean it's that way for everybody.

BTW, to answer a previous question, yes I was told about the two year agreement when I got the HR20. I definitely would not have agreed to a two year commitment for the Mover's Connection, and would not have agreed right away to a one year either. I had all the old equipment I needed at my old house (the dish that preceded the slimline, the WB68, extra cabling, etc.). Heck I could have probably done a better job, the installer ran out of cable and wanted to just splice it, I refused so I had to get up in the hot attic and re-route the cable to get me an extra few feet, just enough to get it to the media closet (but not enough to get it to the shelf, so it's hanging from the ceiling about a foot above the shelf, there's no slack at all). It was that or put up with a degraded signal due to unnecessary splicing. At least he did show up on time though, I had so many missed appointments at my old house, it wasn't even funny.

I'm not trying to bash DirecTV, just saying they're not without fault here. They can and do screw up. They shouldn't be able to get away with anything just because it's in some fine print that the customer may or may not have seen, and customers shouldn't get away with anything just because they claim they never saw the fine print. Like I said before, why should I do as much research with every single move I make with DirecTV as I would if buying a new house or car? Heck, I'm sure there's people here who have been stupid enough to buy a car at a dealer without reading every page on the manufacturer's website (yes I'm being a bit sarcastic here), but I'd be more willing to spend hours/days researching a car or house purchase, than on whether or not moving will extend a contract, what will happen if I change my package (I don't think that would extend my contract, but if it later would, I'm sure people would be lining up to attack me, saying I should have known better even if the CSR made no mention of it), etc.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

man_rob said:


> How did you get a receiver and installation if you didn't sign anything?


When I decided to get a DVR, I called DirecTV and asked them how much it would cost to get a DVR. The first CSR told me that it would cost $99, but it would be a lease, not a purchase, and I would have to pay a lease fee of $5 per month. I questioned the lease fee, and then hung up.

A few days later (after searching this forum), I called DirecTV again, and asked if the lease fee would apply since I was replacing my primary receiver. I was told that the previous CSR gave me incorrect information (my first exposure to CSR Roulette), and that there was no lease fee for the first receiver. But it would still be a leased receiver and I would have to return the receiver when I no longer wanted it. The CSR also told me that since I was a long-time customer of DirecTV, he could give me the DVR for free, but I would have to pay $20 for installation. (Had I waited a few weeks, I could have taken advantage of the DVR4U promotion which would have given me a free DVR and free installation.) I said that sounded great, and I scheduled installation.

About a week or two later, two guys pull up in a white truck with a DirecTV logo on the door. One guy looks at the dish on the side of my garage, and asks me if I have a ladder. I let him borrow my ladder, and I show him where the satellite line enters the garage, and where I had run a second line for the second tuner. The guy looks at that line and says "Too far. We only do standard installation." And he shows me where they will run a line a slightly shorter distance to the outside wall of my family room. I say OK (in retrospect, a mistake). He then runs a line from the dish to the outside of the family room, drills a hole in the wall, and slips the line through the hole. He tacks the line to my vinyl siding (instead of tucking it underneath the siding, like my original DirecTV installation back in the 1990's). He uses some sealant to seal the hole, and both guys go inside the house.

Inside the house the one guy takes an R15 out of a box, puts it on the shelf where I show him, and attaches the satellite cable. He then attaches the cables to the television. He does not attach the phone line. He puts batteries in the remote control and turns on the receiver. He sees that there is a picture on the television. He then tells me to call a phone number to get the reciever activated, and both leave. As I am walking them back to the truck, I give them a tip (I'm not sure why), and the one guy thanks me and they drive away.

I then called the number and activated the receiver.

(I see that Josetann had to sign something saying the work was completed properly. I didn't even sign that. I guess they were concerned I would object to them drilling a hole in my wall when I had already fished a cable for them to use.)


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## STEVED21 (Feb 6, 2006)

josetann said:


> It's like saying you should have known that new Nissan Altima you bought has a warranty that's only good if you don't drive out of state. I mean, the information is plastered all over Nissan's site (click this, click that, then click this, there you go); why would they need to tell you anything at all about that at the dealer? Why shouldn't I be able to call DirecTV, ask about moving, and not have them give me accurate info? Like I said, no one said anything about a contract extension, no one said anything about needing to go to the site to read any terms and conditions. They just needed the new address, told me what day was available, and that was it. Now, if I had scheduled it online, that would have been a different story. BTW, did all the fanboys miss where they had signed me up for a two year contract, when the CSR herself stated it should have just been for one? Just a little more proof that DirecTV isn't perfect. As far as signing anything, I did read what I signed when the installer was done, it was basically just saying that he had completed the work that he was supposed to. Besides, it would have been a bit late in the game to have me sign a contract extension after the work was already done, wouldn't it? Do all the work then ask me to sign a contract? In case anyone reads this wrong, again I say nothing was signed that said anything about extending a contract.
> 
> Yes, yes, I know there's info online. That should only count as binding if you place the transaction online. Setup a Mover's Connection online, ok there should be a screen that makes you agree to the commitment (not even sure you can schedule it online). Buy a receiver from BestBuy.com, then you can point out that all the info is right there. But if you call DirecTV or walk into Best Buy, that's a whole different story. And I'm saying that the experience can be inconsistent. Just because your CSR told you about the commitment, or your Best Buy has signage up, doesn't mean it's that way for everybody.
> 
> ...


How did you find out about the Mover's conection? On TV, the warning is there, albeit small and quick. In you bill, the warning is there. On line the warning is there. If you had NO IDEA there was a mover's connection and you just called out of the blue to find out how to move your system, the fact that they did it for free should have triggered something in your mind. Why is this service free? Does it cost something down the road? Every other service, cell phone, internet, cable, land line gives their product away or at a discount if you committ.

Since you can find your way around the internet well enoght to find this forum, my guess is that you have made at least one trip to Directv.com.

Today, you must do your research before you buy anything. Especially when it's free.


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## josetann (Oct 2, 2006)

STEVED21 said:


> How did you find out about the Mover's conection? On TV, the warning is there, albeit small and quick. In you bill, the warning is there. On line the warning is there. If you had NO IDEA there was a mover's connection and you just called out of the blue to find out how to move your system, the fact that they did it for free should have triggered something in your mind. Why is this service free? Does it cost something down the road? Every other service, cell phone, internet, cable, land line gives their product away or at a discount if you committ.
> 
> Since you can find your way around the internet well enoght to find this forum, my guess is that you have made at least one trip to Directv.com.
> 
> Today, you must do your research before you buy anything. Especially when it's free.


I hadn't needed the Mover's Connection service before, so I didn't look into it before. It doesn't cost anything to move phone or cable service (or at least it doesn't have to, I've moved phone service before and never had to pay extra), one should not be so taken aback that it may not cost to move satellite service. Just because I have been to DirecTV.com in the past doesn't mean I should be expected to check every page out, and check them all at least a month for any possible changes, because I may want to take advantage of one of the services provided in the far future (by which time, things most surely will have changed greatly). I remember when I first got Dish Network (back in the late 90s), I was expected to install the dish myself. Should I expect to install the dish myself now? I'm pretty sure it was the same with DirecTV back then, I remember setting up my mom's system way back. Now they wouldn't even let you, if you need a new dish for HD, it must be installed by them, not you (unless you buy it from somewhere other than DirecTV).

And since you must know, we moved to this house before DSL was setup. The only internet I could hope to get was through an edge connection on our cellphone, which would pick up for a few minutes at a time if you were able to find the sweet spot (basically no coverage, no phone will pick up except for my old Motorola V551, and even then like I said it had to be in the perfect spot at just the right time). So no, I didn't research it online like I normally would have. To do so would have literally required hours of my time (and I'm not kidding, the connection even when it worked would take a long time to load just one page, then you'd have to wait until you found another sweet spot, I literally had the phone hanging off the window blinds several times, because it would pick up a weak signal for a few minutes there).

So, are the internet savvy going to be required to read the site without ever being told, because they should have known better? Should that be one of the first questions when you call in, "sir/ma'am, do you have an internet connection?" If you answer yes, then they can just assume you'll read up on everything online first, right? Heck, they should just be able to assume you do, because if you have enough money for satellite service, you can surely afford the internet, right? That argument doesn't hold water for many reasons. One of which is many, many times things are completely different online vs in-person (such as, BestBuy.com vs a Best Buy store). Maybe AT&T Wireless has a promo where you can get a new phone with no activation fee if bought online, does that mean I can go to their store and buy one and just assume it has no activation fee? I mean I read the terms online, surely it's the same everywhere. No, you should be expected to be given any applicable terms when you get the product/service. Sadly this isn't always the case, but it should be. Case in point, we bought a new car in 2000, got the extended warranty, were told we could change our mind at any time. We later changed our minds and were told tough luck. They said we only had 30 days and it was clearly stated in a pamphlet that was mailed to us. Nowhere in our contract did it say that further information would be mailed to us, and of course they had no proof they mailed it (nothing was signed for). Of course they had a pamphlet at the dealership to show us what it would have looked like. Why they couldn't have just handed one to us when we got it is anyone's guess (actually I know why, but that's irrelevant). Now, I do expect that kind of shady dealing with buying a new car, and know I need to be extra careful...why should I have to be just as prudent with my satellite service? Why can't they just give me the info upfront and honestly, instead of just saying "that's the way it is", and why does everyone here keep pointing out the website, when my experience and the OP's had nothing to do with a website (he bought in-store, I called a CSR)?

I'm not even trying to complain that much. I caught the error, we came to a workable solution, everyone's happy. I was fine with extending my contract if I got a new HD DVR out of it. If I hadn't been, then things may have played out worse. I don't dwell on the fight I COULD have had with DirecTV, because it's a moot point. Heck it worked out even better for me, because of another goof they made. I was supposed to get a new HD DVR, they sent a refurb. I called, they said they'd send a new one out to me and a box to return the refurb. I said that'd be fine, but I would be willing to try the refurb if it was free. Never demanded it, just gave an extra option, figured it would be a win-win (they'd get rid of one more refurb and not have to pay two more shipping fees, I'd save even more money, basically get a free receiver plus the $10/mo credit). I did have them note that if I had problems with the refurb I would be allowed to return it and get the original deal. They said that'd be fine, I went ahead and activated and it's working fine. Now if they had said "tough luck" and said I was stuck with a refurb even though it was supposed to have been new, that would have been a different story. But I'm not complaining, we both came to a solution that worked for us (and again, I didn't demand the receiver for free, I just said I'd be willing to try that, and made it clear I was fine doing the swap they suggested).

I'm just trying to say, it's not necessarily all the OP's fault. It is not that far-fetched to believe that he missed the fine print, he bought it in-store so you can't point out what's on BestBuy.com. Now, I'm pretty sure he was given the fine-print at one point, so there's where it's at least partly his fault. Everyone's making out like he was told at every turn. Do you really expect Best Buy employees to be constantly saying "you know that you're just leasing that, not buying, even though everything else we have is sold and not leasesd", that they constantly make sure all the signs are up that state such, and that all the cashiers are trained to say "you need to sign this saying you agree that you must activate in 30 days, need a phone line, cannot return this after activating, and are agreeing to a new 18month/24month contract." It's optimistic to think they're even skimming over the terms at all, more likely they're just saying "sign here." If you're paying with a credit card, the first signature won't catch you by surprise at all, the second might get a raised eyebrow. I haven't even bought a receiver at BestBuy, I hope they don't require just one signature for both the card authorization and agreeing to the terms.


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## Bama (Apr 24, 2007)

CSR's are required to tell customers about commitments.

Read the customer agreement that you can get to online and it is also sent out from time to time with your bills.

There is no 30 day trial period with Directv, it's 3 if you are a new customer, none on a new or replacement receiver activations unless you have protection plan(for the replacement only )

Directv has the right to conduct business as they see fit(AGAIN...see customer agreement) so stop crying, deal with it or go elsewhere.

Insurance company's DO charge cancellation fees, I stopped using nationwide in the middle of a 6 month period and they hit me with one.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

Although I have my doubts about your claims, if you are unhappy, and if DirecTV doesn't have documented evidence that they told you (they record calls) or presented the written documentation, you should definitely take it up in court to get satisfaction. Be sure to post a copy of the court ruling to back up your stories.

I found it impossible to miss. DirecTV made it clear to me that terms and conditions applied in every aspect of getting my service, and on the several occasions that I upgraded my system. I made sure I knew what those conditions were before I agreed.

It still sounds to me like folks just aren't paying attention, and quickly signing, or verbally agreeing without paying attention.


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## Stoodo (Jun 18, 2006)

Bama said:


> Insurance company's DO charge cancellation fees, I stopped using nationwide in the middle of a 6 month period and they hit me with one.


It shouldn't have been a "hit" per se since you knew it was coming, right?


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## chiplatham (Sep 13, 2007)

someone may have already mentioned this but i don't see how the op would have a problem unless he waited until after 30 days of purchase (lease) to activate the receiver. 

if it was within 30 days, wouldn't he be able to just return the receiver to bb and restore his dtv account to it's original state?


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## dp3 (Feb 1, 2008)

Upstream said:


> Sign what? As many (including me) have noted in this thread, we have received receivers without signing anything. More to the point, if a customer signed an agreement, then when they call to complain, DirecTV only has to send them a copy of what they signed with their signature. Do you think Josetann would be claiming he knew nothing about the contract extension if he had signed something, and DirecTV sent him a copy of his signature when he questioned it?


EXACTLY. when I got my receiver, there was nothing on the sign at Best Buy applicable to me as an existing subscriber. The CSR didn't say anything about a commitment. This is in stark contrast to when I moved and the CSR mentioned it multiple times.


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## dp3 (Feb 1, 2008)

chiplatham said:


> someone may have already mentioned this but i don't see how the op would have a problem unless he waited until after 30 days of purchase (lease) to activate the receiver.
> 
> if it was within 30 days, wouldn't he be able to just return the receiver to bb and restore his dtv account to it's original state?


DTV wouldn't let me. they told me specifically, 2 days later, that if I returned the receiver to Best Buy I would be charged the full price for the receiver of $399. DTV also said I would still be bound by a 2 year commitment + the remaining commitment from my move of 1 year.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dp3 said:


> DTV wouldn't let me. they told me specifically, 2 days later, that if I returned the receiver to Best Buy I would be charged the full price for the receiver of $399. DTV also said I would still be bound by a 2 year commitment + the remaining commitment from my move of 1 year.


While it is possible that you would be bound to a commitment, it is unlikely that it would extend beyond 2 years. The commitments are not cumulative.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

josetann said:


> I do find it possible that he bought a receiver at Best Buy that didn't have any signage explaining that it was a lease, if/when he signed the electronic thing for the terms, the sales person could have stated "it's just saying you agree to activate it and have a phone line" or something like that. How many of us really read those things all the way through?


Even though I knew the terms, I read it all the way through. As I posted earlier, whoever doesn't only has themself to blame.


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## jjkoe3 (Feb 7, 2008)

I have had D* for about 12 years and I always loved it. Between the digital picture and sound when no one else knew what that was to Sunday Ticket, I never thought of leaving.

Whenever I wanted to upgrade equiptment, I simply called, negotiated the price and they sent it. I had a lifetime TIVO agreement since Tivo came out. $200 for all subsequent receivers included. When my HR10-250's had a problem they mailed me new ones and told me to throw the others away. (Yes they did) 

I was in love. They said I was A tier or some such. Everything was beautiful. Then I called for the HR21-700 because my old TIVO didn't receive all of the HD channels. The price was steeper than ever before. $300. But we'll give you a hondo off. OK. Ship it.

Never a word about leased receivers, never a word about a contract. And I spoke with min. 3 CSR's trying to get a better deal. I pay my bil online and there was certainly nothing there. Until the new charges showed up.

It's deceptive and it's intentional and to defend it just lessens one's credibility.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> While it is possible that you would be bound to a commitment, it is unlikely that it would extend beyond 2 years. The commitments are not cumulative.


But that doesn't mean he wasn't told they're not cumulative. When I looked into getting an HD DVR, I was originally told it would add two years to the end of my existing commitment. I didn't find out that was incorrect until I mentioned cumulative commitments here and Earl laughed at me and commented that if this were true, his commitment would be a million years (or something to that effect).


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

jjkoe3 said:


> I have had D* for about 12 years and I always loved it. Between the digital picture and sound when no one else knew what that was to Sunday Ticket, I never thought of leaving.
> 
> Whenever I wanted to upgrade equiptment, I simply called, negotiated the price and they sent it. I had a lifetime TIVO agreement since Tivo came out. $200 for all subsequent receivers included. When my HR10-250's had a problem they mailed me new ones and told me to throw the others away. (Yes they did)
> 
> ...


Call me whacky, but for some crazy reason if I sign a two year lease with a company I don't expect during that two year period to have new sudden price increases, or creations of mystical tiers to move originally-free channels and then charge extra for them.

Shouldn't I be able to change my end of the bargain in midstream also like decide I'm only going to pay D* $5 this month instead of $205? Yeah, then we'd see some screamin'.


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## Stevies3 (Jul 22, 2004)

Don't cell phone companies operate the same way? Buy a phone & get the reduced price with a 1 or 2 year commitment?


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## thxultra (Feb 1, 2005)

Stevies3 said:


> Don't cell phone companies operate the same way? Buy a phone & get the reduced price with a 1 or 2 year commitment?


Yep, people also don't see that cable charges $13/month for EACH dvr, so for me that would be $26/month where I pay $5.99 for dvr service and $5 for the extra reciever with direct tv. So yes you have to buy your equipment but over time it evens out and as technology advances d* gives the equipment away for cheaper.


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## HawkEye19 (Feb 1, 2008)

Stevies3 said:


> Don't cell phone companies operate the same way? Buy a phone & get the reduced price with a 1 or 2 year commitment?


Except with the cell phone companies, you own your phone. With D*, you're spending $99-199 to lease it. No ownership involved. If something happens with the receiver you lease, D* will replace it and extend your contract at the same time.


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