# NFL Network moved from AT100 to AT200 - (was ... moving?)



## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Ok this is odd I just got an e-mail from from some middle management marketing guy in our company that says we now have the NFL network in the top 200 package. the way it was worded made it sound like Dish was adding it and didn't have it before (yeah I know it doesn't take too many steps up the management ladder to get fairly clueless about these things apparantly :lol: ). The only thing I could imagine is maybe Dish had decided to move NFL net from 100 to 200 and maybe he misunderstood? That doesn't make much sense either. Anyway i've checked the Dish site and find nothing about NFL net changing packages, anyone else hear anything?


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

There haven't been many occasions when programming went _up_ a tier like that.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

FTA Michael said:


> There haven't been many occasions when programming went _up_ a tier like that.


Yeah that's one of the things that struck me as odd, that and I know that this is a channel that some cable companies aren't carrying so it's one of those that Dish can say hey come sign up for our entry level package, save money on cable and get NFL network, so it doesn't make much sense that they'd move it. The reason I give this e-mail/memo any weight at all is it's from the same guy that sent us the memo about the new price increases in Feb before anyone else had heard about it yet.


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

Anyone have the history on this - why it's carried on both satellite companies, but not on many cable channels? I know it's about money, but usually E* wouldn't pony up for a channel like that in the basic package. Did NFL give satellite a good deal on the first years of the contract?


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Just got another e-mail that this will actually be happening on Wednesday (2/20/08)


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## Raymie (Mar 31, 2007)

Now on the News Monitor.


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## langlin (Apr 8, 2005)

As I understand it, the NFL fight with cable is that cable wanted to have the NFL on a "higher" tier and the NFL wanted it in the "basic" tier. Seems this post may be in error, doesn't seem likely the NFL would accept it going to a higher tier.

"The NFL wants cable companies to pay about 70 cents per viewer per month and have it on basic cable, which has a larger audience."

NFL story


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## bartendress (Oct 8, 2007)

langlin said:


> As I understand it, the NFL fight with cable is that cable wanted to have the NFL on a "higher" tier and the NFL wanted it in the "basic" tier. Seems this post may be in error, doesn't seem likely the NFL would accept it going to a higher tier.
> 
> "The NFL wants cable companies to pay about 70 cents per viewer per month and have it on basic cable, which has a larger audience."
> 
> NFL story


Time Horror, Comcast, and a few others want to put NFL Network on a 'sports tier' for which they charge their subs an additional monthly fee. NFL Network wants to be on a standard tier on par with ESPN, Bravo, Lifetime, etc. Both sides banter back and forth on cost figures, etc.

The same thing goes for Big Ten Network. Coincidentally (??), the cable operators use the same rhetoric for both situations.

It seems like a big pi$$ing contest to me. NFL Network and Big Ten Network were two of my top five reasons for dumping Time Horror in favor of DISH.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

FYI... I think NFL Network was always supposed to be on the second tier (i.e. AT200) but there was a dispute.

Here is what I have on the change logs of the channel cart:

9/2/05
The NFL channel is now available to subscribers on channel 154. It is also available part time in HD on channel 9464 both at 110°. There is no official release, but it looks like these channels are available to AT120 and higher subscribers.

9/7/05
Dish's web site shows that NFL Network is in the AT120 package. (ANON/Brian post on DBSTalk and Satelliteguys)

Press Release 6/26/06
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=68854&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=876208&highlight=
Beginning July 13, NFL Network will be available to DISH Network customers on Channel 154 on the America's Top 60 package ($29.99 per month) or above. NFL Network has been located on DISH Network Channel 154 since last September and is currently available to customers subscribing to America's Top 120 package or above.

7/13/06
The NFL Network channel 154 is now apparently available on AT60 and higher packages. This channel was AT120 and higher until today. (ANON)

See ya
Tony


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## STEELERSRULE (Apr 4, 2007)

Yep. Now if you want the NFL network, you are going to have to upgrade up to AT200 for sure as of Wednesday, Feb. 20th.

People probably will not care about it now in February 2008.

But come September 2008(or most likley later to November 2008 when they begin showing games, if they appear to be worth it. MOST of the 8 games they had absoulutely Sucked this year)alot of people will care, and probably upgrade to AT200 for the season and then downgrade back down in February 2009.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

I would get concerned in Preseason when NFL Net shows every game, many of them live..


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

I'll bet a friend of mine is going to be PO'd. He just got HD last fall only to find he can't see 129 to get local HD. And now they're going to take his NFL away, since he doesn't have AT200? I know he's been thinking of dropping HD when his free 6 months is up. This might just tip him over the edge.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Just jump to the $29.99 HD Only Pack.

You get all the HD channels and their associated SD channels plus locals for $5.


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## snowcat (May 29, 2007)

I guess we will find out tomorrow if it happens or not. Dish still has NFL Network listed under their Top 100 package, but they don't usually update their listings until the day of the change.

I have the Top 250, so it doesn't affect me, but it will reduce NFL Network's subscription base even more.

I have no problem with the NFL Network existing and showing regular season games (you would be surprised at how many on my football boards do complain). But the NFL really needs to lower their price if they expect it to ever be accepted nationwide.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

The package change has happened at about 2:45 AM EST this morning.


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## dave4100 (Jan 29, 2007)

JohnH said:


> The package change has happened at about 2:45 AM EST this morning.


It's changed now. It's gone from my menu. I only wish they would add more HD instead of taking HD away.


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## snowcat (May 29, 2007)

Dishnetwork.com has also updated their channel listings as well.


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## RowdyUSP40 (Jul 6, 2006)

What a load of crap........ moving a channel up to a higher tier on their existing customers. And the audacity to say "hope you enjoyed your free preview of the NFL network". I don't think anyone was told that was a free preview when they signed their contract, did they?


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## Beanie (Jan 8, 2008)

Jim5506 said:


> Just jump to the $29.99 HD Only Pack.
> 
> You get all the HD channels and their associated SD channels plus locals for $5.


I'm confused. I subscribe to Dish HD Ultimate and the Americas top 100 and have lost this channel..CRAP!


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## snowcat (May 29, 2007)

Beanie said:


> I'm confused. I subscribe to Dish HD Ultimate and the Americas top 100 and have lost this channel..CRAP!


For HD essentials and HD ultimate, you basically have to subscribe to the SD equavalent to get the HD version.

THe HD only package gives you every non-premium, non-local HD station and their SD equivalents.


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## Beanie (Jan 8, 2008)

Basically, I'm being strong armed into upgrading my programming if I want to keep NFL network? :icon_lame


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## garn9173 (Apr 4, 2005)

Beanie said:


> Basically, I'm being strong armed into upgrading my programming if I want to keep NFL network? :icon_lame


yep, that's Dish Network for ya.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

Beanie said:


> Basically, I'm being strong armed into upgrading my programming if I want to keep NFL network? :icon_lame


There isn't enough programming on AT 100. I've been there done it.


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## tommiet (Dec 29, 2005)

bartendress said:


> Time Horror, Comcast, and a few others want to put NFL Network on a 'sports tier' for which they charge their subs an additional monthly fee. NFL Network wants to be on a standard tier on par with ESPN, Bravo, Lifetime, etc. Both sides banter back and forth on cost figures, etc.
> 
> The same thing goes for Big Ten Network. Coincidentally (??), the cable operators use the same rhetoric for both situations.
> 
> It seems like a big pi$$ing contest to me. NFL Network and Big Ten Network were two of my top five reasons for dumping Time Horror in favor of DISH.


With the cost of sport networks soaring, it's past time to move them to their own tier. Yes the cost will go up, but it's time for sports junkies to pay up.

Allow ala cart for sports channels and cut my bill a buck or two!


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

would not worry about upgrading just yet NFL net is a bunch of crap this time of year anyways


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## Raymie (Mar 31, 2007)

Dish Network made a big error here. If you give a channel to a group of subscribers for 19 months, they should be able to have it forever, not some "extended free preview".


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

NFL Network is the one that does not Ala Carte. Those games would go to being nationally televised to nationally availble.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Raymie said:


> Dish Network made a big error here. If you give a channel to a group of subscribers for 19 months, they should be able to have it forever, not some "extended free preview".


With dish network never think you will get anything forever just be glad to have what you have when you turn your tv on


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## Beanie (Jan 8, 2008)

Paul Secic said:


> There isn't enough programming on AT 100. I've been there done it.


There's plenty of programming there for me. Plenty of crap channels I'll never watch as well. Give me Nickelodeon, ESPN, Big 10, Disney, Monsters HD and Kung Fu and NFL network I'd be a happy camper....Oh and some sort of local coverage would be nice.  I don't really want access to 100 more channels I wouldnt watch!


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## wii_dont_care (Feb 9, 2008)

Beanie said:


> There's plenty of programming there for me. Plenty of crap channels I'll never watch as well. Give me Nickelodeon, ESPN, Big 10, Disney, Monsters HD and Kung Fu and NFL network I'd be a happy camper....Oh and some sort of local coverage would be nice.  I don't really want access to 100 more channels I wouldnt watch!


You and I are "in the same boat" beanie. If they'd add some more kids programming to the stand alone HD package, that's where I'd be heading. Guess it's time to sit and wait for "soon" to arrive on Dish Network's clock.


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

Even Multichannel News noticed. Turns out it was a free preview all this time.

"... in a note, entitled 'NFL Network Free Preview Ending,' which was posted by Dish Network to its retailers' Web site, the satellite service informed that: 'NFL Network is moving out of Free Preview into America's Top 200 package, effective Wednesday, February 20th, 2008. ...' "

No comment directly from Dish. Full Multichannel News story here: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6534071.html


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Beanie said:


> I'm confused. I subscribe to Dish HD Ultimate and the Americas top 100 and have lost this channel..CRAP!


You think you're confused, consider this from the Dish website this morning:








Unless I read this wrong, if you have any HD with a Top 100 or better, you should be getting HDNFL. But then maybe my brain is mishandling the image in the upper right of the Top 100?


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## snowcat (May 29, 2007)

Dish just hasn't updated this image yet. They updated about everthing else with the new information.


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## Beanie (Jan 8, 2008)

snowcat said:


> Dish just hasn't updated this image yet. They updated about everthing else with the new information.


That image seems to have been updated now.


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## snowcat (May 29, 2007)

Yep, it has been updated. The only real mistake now is the "DishHD programming is available only in conjunction with the following packages: America's Top 100, America's Top 200, America's Top 250, America's "Everything" Pak." They need to add the HD-only package.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Beanie said:


> That image seems to have been updated now.


Anyone want to bet whether before they corrected this there was at least one person with the Top 100 who signed up for HD thinking they would get NFL?


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## Beanie (Jan 8, 2008)

Yeah, it was me 2 months ago. :lol:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> Anyone want to bet whether before they corrected this there was at least one person with the Top 100 who signed up for HD thinking they would get NFL?


Duh. Over the past two years there had to be at least _one_ person who signed up for HD expecting to get the advertised NFL HD and up until this week they got it.

The "one" signup who saw it on that image after the channel was moved (er, "the free preview ended") is still within their cancellation period. Or they can sign up for a real AT package and not the AT100 "starter package". A sports fan signing up for a package without their RSN or the other AT200 sports channels? Rare.


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

At least we can have this debate. Our local cable doesn't offer NFL for any price. Some very unhappy football fans around here last fall.


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## projectorguru (Mar 5, 2007)

Another reason to dump Dish Net, bye bye HD only pack, cable now has more HD


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## cb7214 (Jan 25, 2007)

isn't the samething going to happen with the BTN? its only on the lower tier package for a certain time then they are moving it up a tier


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

Big 10 is available on AT100 for everyone now.

"soon" it will be available on AT100 for everyone in states where Big 10 schools reside. It will not be available outside that area at any price. That was the original release on this channel. That could have changed.

See ya
Tony


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

TNGTony said:


> Big 10 is available on AT100 for everyone now.
> 
> "soon" it will be available on AT100 for everyone in states where Big 10 schools reside. It will not be available outside that area at any price. That was the original release on this channel. That could have changed.
> 
> ...


I thought the original deal was it was going to be in "free preview mode" to everyone with AT100 and up for a while and then after that it was going to be treated as a RSN after that. Basically only available to people in the big ten area in AT100+ and above and then available to everyone else as part of the regional sports pack with all the pitfalls that entails (blackouts).


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## epokopac (Aug 8, 2007)

You may be right! The last I heard about it (via Wikipedia) was:

"However, Dish Network, which began airing the channel a week after it started, has indicated that in March 2008 it will move the Big Ten Network to its America's Top 100 plus package for subscribers in the eight state Big Ten region and on some as yet undetermined tier for other subscribers."

I consider it an RSN and nothing more. Logically it belongs in the Multi Sports Pack.
Can't say that I remember much of anything being blacked-out last fall whenever I tuned in. 24/7 viewers may have a different opinion.

I guess we'll know before too long.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tsmacro said:


> I thought the original deal was it was going to be in "free preview mode" to everyone with AT100 and up for a while and then after that it was going to be treated as a RSN after that.


That was speculation. Speculation I agree with, but speculation.

What TNGTony said based on the initial press release is correct. What happens after it BTN is removed from the "free preview" has not been fully announced. I doubt if E* and BTN knew for sure when the contract was signed. I expect that it was one of those "let's put the channel on and figure out the long term placement later" deals to get ahead of cable.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

I agree James. That is exactly what the press release read like to me. "Here is the channel for now. We are still wrestling behind the scenes to get a long-term deal ironed out."

Here is the exact wording from the press release. I was mistaken when I said it will remain on AT100. It will go to AT100 PLUS if this holds true.
http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/about_us/press_room/Big10.pdf


> "Dish Network customers nationwide who subscibe to America's Top 100 and higher will find the Big Ten Network on channel 439. Customers throughout the nation will also have the opportunity to preview the networik until early 2008. At that time the channel will be carried on America's Top 100 Plus service within the eight states with Big Ten institutions."


The word "preview" gives the impression that it could be available nationwide on an a la carte basis or in a sports pack, but it doesn't say so.

See ya
Tony


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Preview would also apply to AT100 subscribers in the eight states that will lose BTN if it goes to AT100 Plus as noted in that release.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

So when does the NFL Network launch a massive ad campaign attacking Dish because it's not included in a base starter package. As a hardcore Dish and Chuck basher I'd love to lay on Dish like there's no tomorrow for this one, but the NFL needs to come to grips with reality. Wanting everyone to have access to their network is just the line they spew.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Maybe NFL needs to come down on their price. That might solve the problem this is NFL's screwup not E*'s.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

James Long said:


> That was speculation. Speculation I agree with, but speculation.
> 
> What TNGTony said based on the initial press release is correct. What happens after it BTN is removed from the "free preview" has not been fully announced. I doubt if E* and BTN knew for sure when the contract was signed. I expect that it was one of those "let's put the channel on and figure out the long term placement later" deals to get ahead of cable.


I remember when Dish first got The NFL Channel they said it wouldn't be in AT 100 forever. So there you be.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Paul Secic said:


> I remember when Dish first got The NFL Channel they said it wouldn't be in AT 100 forever. So there you be.


You have a different memory than anyone else. Do you remember where that memory came from?

The press release from June 26th, 2006 (for NFL being moved to AT120) said:EchoStar Communications Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH) and NFL Network today announced a multi-year extension to bring many new advanced features to customers of EchoStar's DISH Network™ satellite TV service. These features include availability on DISH Network's America's Top 60; 168 games televised nationally including NFL Network's regular season primetime game package debuting this Thanksgiving; and full-time carriage of NFL Network's high-definition feed.

"Our renewed partnership with NFL Network allows us to continue to offer DISH Network customers advanced services at affordable prices," said Eric Sahl, senior vice president of programming for DISH Network. "NFL Network in America's Top 60 package allows DISH Network to bring this service to our customers at the lowest price in the industry, further strengthening the choice of our programming options."

"DISH Network is a terrific partner who has embraced NFL Network wholeheartedly," said Brian Decker, NFL Network's vice president of national accounts. "We look forward to continuing to drive positive results for its business and customers."

Beginning July 13, NFL Network will be available to DISH Network customers on Channel 154 on the America's Top 60 package ($29.99 per month) or above. NFL Network has been located on DISH Network Channel 154 since last September and is currently available to customers subscribing to America's Top 120 package or above.​Per the EKB NFL Network became available to AT60 subs on 7/13/2006.

Where did you see that this was temporary?


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## svwspider (Jan 19, 2008)

I just learned this tonight! I just started using Dish after a number of years with the BUD and then DirecTV. This specific channel was one I made sure was part of the AT100 package when I made the switch. Absolutely at no time was I made aware that this channel was on a temp, free preview basis. The post above also goes further back and again, where does it say it was a "free preview" or temp in nature?

When I decided to switch, it was because the equipment options, with dual tuners seemed like a great feature (giving my wife and four children more options). I first visited the website on around 2/6/08, decided on the AT100 package with HD, and a movie channel. The AT00 was showing on the website (I went on line, chose the packages I wanted and then placed the order over the phone as I had some questions. The basic price (AT100) was quoted then as $29.99. Then I got my first bill, rather quickly, only to find they raised the price from 29.99 to 32.99, That's not what I committed to. I called Dish and they said, our prices went up 2/1/08. I explained their website did not reflect this a week later, and when I ordered over the phone, the price for the package was quoted as $29.99 as well. They said they were sorry, but the price was 32.99, After arguing with the overseas script reader, they offered me a $24.00 credit as a compromise. That's garbage. I also expected the NFL channel as well. Last night, I decided to watch it and found it was now in another package! This is absolute abuse and I take it as outright lies by Dish. I'm floored that others here have taken the NFL channel issue so lightly as well.

Even my install was unprofessional. The contractor they used here showed up without any ability (fasteners) to anchor the dish to my brick siding. He said, he normally used masonry (Tapcon) screws, which luckily I had. Then he had to borrow my drill bit as he didn't have "his" either. Lastly, he borrowed my socket wrench (he "forgot" his).

*Question* - What is the cancellation period (how long after installation can this service be canceled without charges? It was installed 2/11/08. I'm really, really peeved.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> You have a different memory than anyone else. Do you remember where that memory came from?
> 
> The press release from June 26th, 2006 (for NFL being moved to AT120) said:EchoStar Communications Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH) and NFL Network today announced a *multi-year extension *to bring many new advanced features to customers of EchoStar's DISH Network™ satellite TV service. These features include availability on DISH Network's America's Top 60; 168 games televised nationally including NFL Network's regular season primetime game package debuting this Thanksgiving; and full-time carriage of NFL Network's high-definition feed.
> 
> ...


I added emphasis above. They didn't say it was temporary, they said it was a "multiyear" without defining what that meant but it did mean there was an end date on the agreement. So it was temporary, about 20 months. This is a typical Dish Network communication to its customers - just enough PR to get you in and no details so you understand what it is they are offering. But then you already know how I feel about this method of communications - it's my pet peeve. They must of hired the PR staff from Enron.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Its allright guys if NFL gets another huge game like last season congress will step in for you again. I am just thankful we even have this channel many with cable do not


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> I added emphasis above. They didn't say it was temporary, they said it was a "multiyear" without defining what that meant but it did mean there was an end date on the agreement. So it was temporary, about 20 months.


A "multi-year" agreement that doesn't last two years is lame logic. What I was responding to was Paul's comment:


Paul Secic said:


> I remember when Dish first got The NFL Channel they said it wouldn't be in AT 100 forever. So there you be.


When DISH first got the NFL Channel it was in AT 120 (there was no such thing as AT 100 at the time, so they could _NOT_ have said what Paul attributed). In June of 2006 the move to AT 60 (still no AT 100/200 packages until February 2007) was announced as muliti-year ... and while NFL Network remains on DISH (for the time being) the _package level_ announced didn't last two years. :grin:

Not that AT 200 isn't the _correct_ level for a channel such as NFL Network. AT 100 doesn't include regional sports channels. How many football fans would want to live with just the NFL Network and not their RSN?

BTW: Find any link or press release that announced the AT 60 placement as temporary or a free preview. That is the challenge that remains unmet.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

You are right James, it is not right for a "muiltiyear" deal to last less than two years. But, then again it does not suprise me at all. On the other hand I would take NFL over my RSN just because football is really the only sport I watch.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> A "multi-year" agreement that doesn't last two years is lame logic.


Boy do I agree with you! And so is not telling us what the holdup is on SciFi and USA. I call it Dish logic. Yeah, I know...:beatdeadhorse:


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

Did Dish add any new channels to AT100 yet? If not, it is typical of them to raise the package price $3.00 then take a channel like NFL Network away!

One they should add is RFD-TV. It comes in all packages but AT100, but it is one of the few channels that can be added a la carte for $1.99. Another one that would be good is ION.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

AT100 remains 114 channels (82 video, 32 audio).

Perhaps they should 34 video channels and the 64 Sirius music channels to AT100 ... include the RSNs and charge $12 more for the package. They could call it AT200.


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## cg7879 (Feb 26, 2008)

NFL Network is only available in the AT200, 250, and AEP (America's Everything Pak). Make your life easier and sign up for Dish DVR Advantage which bundles your AT200 programming, local channels, and 1 DVR fee for 49.99 a month, which is a savings of $5.98 a month. If you don't already have a DVR, call Dish and we will be happy to set you up with one. A lot of customers are taking advantage of this option as a way of offsetting the recent price changes.


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

cg7879 said:


> NFL Network is only available in the AT200, 250, and AEP (America's Everything Pak). Make your life easier and sign up for Dish DVR Advantage which bundles your AT200 programming, local channels, and 1 DVR fee for 49.99 a month, which is a savings of $5.98 a month. If you don't already have a DVR, call Dish and we will be happy to set you up with one. A lot of customers are taking advantage of this option as a way of offsetting the recent price changes.


Does that DVR Advantage pack expire in January 2009? So that means if they raise the base package price again by at least $2.00 (which they usually do) and you have to start paying a DVR fee again, that is an $8.00 increase.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Or they continue offering DVR Advantage and people continue saving $6.

The price guarantee ending does not mean that that package will no longer be offered.


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

James Long said:


> Or they continue offering DVR Advantage and people continue saving $6.
> 
> The price guarantee ending does not mean that that package will no longer be offered.


I still use the 721 receiver so I don't pay the DVR fee either way. I am so used to it that I don't want to change to the newer DVRs yet...


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## rjsam2000 (Nov 6, 2007)

Looks like Charlie will be going to court again. The NFL is sueing. Can't post a link, so go to SportingNews.com and look for it, if interested.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=361475


> _The NFL filed suit in federal court Monday to try and keep EchoStar from moving NFL Network to a less widely penentrated tier. The league filed its suit Monday afternoon in New York Supreme Court.
> 
> EchoStar moved the network last week to its America's Top 200 tier, which has 4 million fewer subscribers than the America's Top 100 tier, which had previously housed the channel. At an average monthly cost of $0.70 per sub, the move would cost NFL Network as much as $33.6 millioin annually.
> 
> EchoStar based its move in part on the league's decision to give its Week 17 Giants-Patriots game to CBS and NBC, taking away the exclusivity for which EchoStar believed it paid. _


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Ahhh, good point NFL's fault.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DISH does have the benefit of a history of providing NFL network at the higher tier (AT120 now AT200) prior to the move to AT60 (now AT100). So they may be able to argue that the NFL network accepted that level before, they should accept it now.

They may just be trying to force down the price. They did pay for exclusivity. For the NFL to take away that exclusivity for one of the most sought games of the year should be punished. A lower rate sounds like a good punishment to me!


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## Link (Feb 2, 2004)

James Long said:


> http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=361475


So more people subscribe to AT100 than AT200? I always thought the AT200 was the most subscribed to and their most popular package...apparently not.

AT100 is more affordable and one of the cheapest packages around to get all the main programming people want without the extras. With the packages continuing to increase in price, I can see why more people would want the AT100 package.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Everyone who subscribes to AT200 gets the AT100 channels.
By moving a channel from AT100 to AT200 the channel loses 4 million subscribers.

Based on previous lawsuits, DISH has about 4 million subscribers at each level. (When channels complain about being bumped from AT 200 to AT250 a 4 million subscriber number also comes up.)


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I know some of ya'll have been mad the last few days about this but, now that I see why it happened I am all in favor of what Charlie did. The NFL is a bunch of crooks that think they can strongarm everybody around and they need to be put in their place. When Charlie agreed to a price he was told that their would be so many exclusive games per year. When it came up that one that had been scheduled all along became something record breaking, NFL caved and let everyone see it. Congress could not have done anything if NFL had not caved so therefore they should not have. E* are not the first ones to gripe about this seems like the week this happened I remember the local affliate that had rights to this game was griping that a competitor of theirs all the sudden had the right to broadcast their exclusive content. The truth of the matter is NFL sold a product that they did not deliver. Because of that they lost 34 million dollars. I applaude Charlie for it.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I have to agree. A contract is a contract and exclusive is not a vague word. The interesting thing is that Dish didn't sue the NFL presumably because proving damages would be difficult. The NFL will have to defend its conduct in a suit attacking Dish. Could be interesting.

But here again, Dish did this in such a way as to cause extremely negative customer relations. Not sure the tradeoff is all that good.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

That is a true statement also. I have learned through the viacom deal, court tv deal and various other things that to be an E* customer and enjoy the slight saving we get over D*, you must be ready for these things. The guys that wants it all no matter what the price, he needs to go over the fence to the other side. But, he will pay for it too.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

It could have been alot worse, if contracts were going on right now Charlie might have dropped them all together for a few weeks just to show whose boss.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

snowcat said:


> I guess we will find out tomorrow if it happens or not. Dish still has NFL Network listed under their Top 100 package, but they don't usually update their listings until the day of the change.
> 
> I have the Top 250, so it doesn't affect me, but it will reduce NFL Network's subscription base even more.
> 
> I have no problem with the NFL Network existing and showing regular season games (you would be surprised at how many on my football boards do complain). But the NFL really needs to lower their price if they expect it to ever be accepted nationwide.


What is to much might I ask?

It is my understanding that they want 70 cents per viewer. I take it 70 cents per subscriber? or does than mean per day? I don't know what it means, but I presume it means per Sub. or the cost would be $20 a month and that would be more than the price increase to AT200.

These people at DISH are lying to the public. I had been considering getting Dish for a few years. I was solicited by phone to order it and after careful inspection of their inclusions ordered the AT100 package and would have dropped the whole idea had they not mis represented it to me. When I sat down to watch the new service I was madder than a hornet. It was simple fraud in my case because it involved misleading me into doing this on false pretenses. So in early february they where selling the NFL network to marks like me anticipatorally. Down right fraud.

Can anyone tell me when they heard about this news, It is stated in the contract they will give notice before changing programing. I am collecting information to present to the state attorney generals office over this solicitation fraud committed by DISHNETWORK.

I have not decided if I will honor this so called contract. It was entered into under mis-representation and deception.

IOf anyone has anything that indicates when Dish made this change known it woulod be helpful.

Thank you Coneman


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## snowcat (May 29, 2007)

Sorry, conecaster. You really don't have any legal basis here. Read the subscriber agreement: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/about_us/residential_customer_agreement/index.shtml

 G. Changes in Services Offered. We reserve the right to add, delete, rearrange and/or change any and all programming, programming packages and other Services that we offer, and our prices and fees related to such programming, programming packages and Services at any time, including without limitation during any term agreement period to which you have agreed under the terms and conditions of any other agreement with DISH Network. If a change affects you, we will provide you notice of such change and its effective date. In the event that we delete, rearrange or change any programming, programming packages or other Services, you understand and agree that we have no obligation to replace or supplement any programming, programming packages or other Services previously offered that have been deleted, rearranged or otherwise changed. You further understand and agree that you will not be entitled to any refund because of a deletion, rearrangement or change in the contents of any programming, programming packages, or other Services previously offered.

As for what is "too much", I really don't know. Apparently 70 cents is too much for the cable companies and Dish.

If you look at the first post in the thread, it looks like 2/18 is when this change was known about.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

rjsam2000 said:


> Looks like Charlie will be going to court again. The NFL is sueing. Can't post a link, so go to SportingNews.com and look for it, if interested.


Man, Charlie has everyone sueing him. TIVO, NFL. Charlie will loose the NFL suit if it goes through. End run: Charlie will buckle, cause he doesn't have that kind of cash!


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I hope Charlie wins this one. NFL broke their contract for that they should lose money.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

conecaster said:


> What is to much might I ask?
> 
> It is my understanding that they want 70 cents per viewer. I take it 70 cents per subscriber? or does than mean per day? I don't know what it means, but I presume it means per Sub. or the cost would be $20 a month and that would be more than the price increase to AT200.
> 
> ...


Good luck with that!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

For those who like to track these things, there will be an appearance for a preliminary conference in the case on Friday before the same judge in the NY Supreme Court Commercial Division that is handling the Cablevision/Voom complaint.

The case is Index Number 600556/2008


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Paul Secic said:


> Man, Charlie has everyone sueing him. TIVO, NFL. Charlie will loose the NFL suit if it goes through. End run: Charlie will buckle, cause he doesn't have that kind of cash!


Well, actually between Dish and Echostar there seems to be about $600 million in loose change.

Interesting idea from another thread:


James Long said:


> We practically need a subforum for DISH and the courts. Wow.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

Slamminc11 said:


> Good luck with that!


Thank you, such cynical perceptions are exactly what Dish deserves.

From what I gather there are 4 million subs involved in this, but I was not a sub, I was a mark, I have no doubt if I took what i have to court there fine print would be thrown out, why? because the contract I have lists no inclusions, it does not state anything concerning what they are offering me, at thatr point it becommes there word against mine, WHat programing package did you offer Sir, we offered the at100, where does it say that? Uh.....Well you see sir we did that verbally over the phone.

My phone records show that they where still selling me this crock a day after the nfl was removed from the at100, this is where thety would really get reemed. I called "all american dish" the sub that cold called, I spoke to a woman about my problem, she was confused, then looked at their offerings and said " but the NFL is still part of the at100".

It is clear to me that the sales sub had no idea they where screwing me.

This is simple phone fraud.

P


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

yeah I know, you can go out and install a system based on lies then change the terms and claim the customer is liable. They offered this to me on the 19th according to my phone records. I called All American Dish yesterday, their sales Sub, The woman did not understand my problem, BUT SIR, NFL IS INCLUDED IN THE AT100. They are still making false claims. I honestly believe Dish never told them of the change far enough in advance to properly present the package.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

After reviewing my options I have decided to cancel Direct TV and use the 3 free months, then pay for three months of the this crock, I will cancel DISH at the end of Aug. pay the 13.33 cancellation cost for the remained of the term. Then see what Direct offers me for service. I might get 3 months to sign with them. So, I get 6 months service and pay about $150 in cancellation fees. Its a cheap way out.

Its a crooked racket but I Might be able to come out OK, BTW, the cost and quality of inclusions in this AT100 is no where near as good as Directs 150 package at comparable cost. DISH is going to lose in this. they are pissing off millions of subscribers and if they are making this decision based on one NFL game this was not exclusive,. then I guess what goes around comes around, The NFL stood to piss off many more millions by refusing to let the broadcasters carry the perfect season game which could have expanded these conflicts further. 70 cents might be high, but other channels aren't subjected to arbitrators telling them to pay tens of millions to employees. 

I can't stand this Company and advise that no one ever get involved with them.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

So you bought through a reseller who had not updated their information?
It seems that your beef is with the reseller, not Dish Network.

BTW: AT100 is intended to be an entry level package. DirecTV's lowest regular package "Choice" is comparable to AT200, not AT100. Trying to compare AT100 with anything DirectTV offers is risky. It is supposed to be a basic no frills package! Complaining that it doesn't have frills is a bit silly.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

conecaster said:


> After reviewing my options I have decided to cancel Direct TV and use the 3 free months, then pay for three months of the this crock, I will cancel DISH at the end of Aug. pay the 13.33 cancellation cost for the remained of the term. Then see what Direct offers me for service. I might get 3 months to sign with them. So, I get 6 months service and pay about $150 in cancellation fees. Its a cheap way out.
> 
> Its a crooked racket but I Might be able to come out OK, BTW, the cost and quality of inclusions in this AT100 is no where near as good as Directs 150 package at comparable cost. DISH is going to lose in this. they are pissing off millions of subscribers and if they are making this decision based on one NFL game this was not exclusive,. then I guess what goes around comes around, The NFL stood to piss off many more millions by refusing to let the broadcasters carry the perfect season game which could have expanded these conflicts further. 70 cents might be high, but other channels aren't subjected to arbitrators telling them to pay tens of millions to employees.
> 
> I can't stand this Company and advise that no one ever get involved with them.


I think after reading your posts, most people would be pretty wary to take your "advice". 
Dish has 14 million customers, are you saying that all 14 million of them are idiots for being customers of Dish? A lot of those customers have been for mulitiple years?


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

James Long said:


> A "multi-year" agreement that doesn't last two years is lame logic. What I was responding to was Paul's comment:
> When DISH first got the NFL Channel it was in AT 120 (there was no such thing as AT 100 at the time, so they could _NOT_ have said what Paul attributed). In June of 2006 the move to AT 60 (still no AT 100/200 packages until February 2007) was announced as muliti-year ... and while NFL Network remains on DISH (for the time being) the _package level_ announced didn't last two years. :grin:
> 
> Not that AT 200 isn't the _correct_ level for a channel such as NFL Network. AT 100 doesn't include regional sports channels. How many football fans would want to live with just the NFL Network and not their RSN?
> ...


Well I guess I assumed too much. To me multi-year means five years.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

Well I am an idot I have been with dish for 10 years. Mods how about a new forum on who is suing dish or a dish legal forum????


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

> Dish's decision came as a consequence of the NFL having simulcast the Dec. 29 regular-season matchup of the eventual Super Bowl opponents, the New England Patriots and New York Giants, on networks CBS and NBC instead of keeping the marquee game exclusive to Dish and other carriers of the NFL Network.
> 
> ...Dish responded Wednesday, calling its decision to move the NFL Network warranted.
> 
> "Their greed for more eyeballs and ad revenue led to their breach of our contract, in turn breaking their commitment not only to Dish Network, but to our customers," Dish Network spokeswoman Kathie Gonzalez said in an e-mail to the Denver Business Journal. "Because they failed to honor their promise, we took appropriate, justified action and look forward to proving our position in court."


- From the Denver Business Journal

In this case, Dish has to get some sympathy. That game was one of the few chances they've had recently to build on the HD subscriber base. Instead, the NFL buckled - the same NFL that has refused to allow cable to put its channel in a second tier because it's worth so much to bring in subscribers.


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## peak_reception (Feb 10, 2008)

I remember when the NFL agreed to spread that Patriots/Giants game around on all the other outlets. I thought at the time "Hey, isn't that supposed to be something of a DISH exclusive?" but I figured DISH didn't object. Now we know better. Maybe even back then DISH didn't make a fuss because they had something like this (moving the channel up in the tiers) in mind? I just can't see the NFL doing what they did if DISH was firmly objecting at the time.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Oh I can, the NFL is as crooked as they come. You can't even announce that you are having a super bowl party due to copyright restrictions. I love to see them losing some money. By the way though, I can't imagine anybody being mad they lost this channel at least until next August.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

peak_reception said:


> I remember when the NFL agreed to spread that Patriots/Giants game around on all the other outlets. I thought at the time "Hey, isn't that supposed to be something of a DISH exclusive?" but I figured DISH didn't object. Now we know better. Maybe even back then DISH didn't make a fuss because they had something like this (moving the channel up in the tiers) in mind? I just can't see the NFL doing what they did if DISH was firmly objecting at the time.


Members of Congress were threatening to hold hearings. It was up to the NFL, which has monopoly waivers from Congress, to hold out its Dish contract and say "NO" and let the monopoly waiver chips fall where they may. But then that might have screwed up the legal action between the NFL and Comcast which the NFL won. Apparently the same judge is going to look over this lawsuit and I have to wonder how he's going to square the NFL's action with the thought process in his last ruling.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

Slamminc11 said:


> I think after reading your posts, most people would be pretty wary to take your "advice".
> Dish has 14 million customers, are you saying that all 14 million of them are idiots for being customers of Dish? A lot of those customers have been for mulitiple years?





Slamminc11 said:


> I think after reading your posts, most people would be pretty wary to take your "advice".
> Dish has 14 million customers, are you saying that all 14 million of them are idiots for being customers of Dish? A lot of those customers have been for mulitiple years?


You give me way to much credit, I'm saying I'm not an idiot.

I could care less what they have done with others, and as for entry level, yada yada, go look at their web site, if I want AT100 they offer it as a standard package, It is NOT a teaser or a limited period offering as advertised, so in my case the point has no foundation.

I canceled Direct yesterday to move forward with my plans to ditch DISH. Last night they called offering me the moon to come back. free hdvr with HD for two years. I can have NFL Net in their 150 channel choice plan for $35 for a year. they are throwing in everything else they can think of as well, to get me back!!! The hell with liars, and some company that builds you up to be their fan then tells you they aren't coming through as promised. No, I'm not an idiot.

If anyone wants some Direct action, Direct is aware of the DISH retraction and are stepping up to bring you over. you can get NFL and a whole lot more for $35, about what the AT100 costs, yes its a year limit. but its still a great deal. Who knows what will be available in a year , the economy well be effecting the industry and they are going to be under assault from new providers like ATT here in my state whom will soon break our cable monopoly and provide internet, phone and TV in packages.

I suggest to he who thinks I'm 'silly" to go out and buy a car, order it special with specific options, and when it arrives you notice that the stereo you ordered was there, the sun roof, the special wheels and suspension, But three days later you are showing it off to a mechanic you know and he points out that this is not the fuel injection they sold you. What are you saying, because he took delivery you have no recourse. That is what happened here. Hidden deception. My good will and good faith is violated by false words spoken in sincere tones, by a person who also believed he was being honest, I have little doubt.

Someone presumes the reseller was notified by DISH. I do not presume any such thing, the fact is Dish was advertising the channel on their site with no mention of the fact it was being removed, so either way their site was involved in the deception and that was on or about 2/19.

So, if they where honest with me or straight with the reseller, that would not have been the case, all marketing materials would have been replaced so the reseller was clear and the reference list would have been changed to avoid confusion. It is a simple mis-representation designed to lure a person into a bogus contract and it is chicken feed behavior.

I plan to pack up their gear, drive it to there office here in town, and set it on the counter, I plan to give them one last shot to be honest, otherwise I will use the free months of savings by Direct and Dish to bail and at least come out even. then I'll have what I want and not be hearing about how poor DISH was abused by the NFL, there charges are to high and they violated there exclusive by showing the Giants-patriots game.

I Hope the NFL beats the pants off these people in Texas. As much as I hate most of the owners I think they are on track with NFL net. Its a great way to include fans who will never buy a PSL or and over priced season ticket. If it was up to me I'd get rid of the forces that causes owners to pay up to 60 mil for an unproven rookie player. He's worth how much. I love Reggie Bush, but 50 mil??

The idea that dish lost an opportunity to sell subscribers is silly in my opinion. The NFL was pissing off most of the country, all of my friends where saying screw them, and bvlaming the NFL.

So, the NFL is not a normal channel. and the added value for the provider is there. The NFL just lost 4 million viewers. That's a serious loss, but They will get me back soon.

Coneman


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## peak_reception (Feb 10, 2008)

Thanks phrelin, I didn't know about those details. Amazing that some members of Congress were trying to interject themselves into the matter!


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

I got a deal for Dish,

So the cost of the NFL net is 70 cents,

How about charging me $2 a month for it and they make a profit of well over 100%.

Now, is that good business. 

But, instead of doing this, all of these providers are forcing us to buy stuff we don't even need. So, the idea that Dish is being abused is crazy. 

I'd be happy if they made that offer to me.


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## peak_reception (Feb 10, 2008)

jclewter79 said:


> By the way though, I can't imagine anybody being mad they lost this channel at least until next August.


What? You mean you're not glued to every minute of the NFL Scouting Combine like all the rest of us? <sarcasm>


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

peak_reception said:


> I remember when the NFL agreed to spread that Patriots/Giants game around on all the other outlets. I thought at the time "Hey, isn't that supposed to be something of a DISH exclusive?" but I figured DISH didn't object. Now we know better. Maybe even back then DISH didn't make a fuss because they had something like this (moving the channel up in the tiers) in mind? I just can't see the NFL doing what they did if DISH was firmly objecting at the time.


All this nonsense because the Pats won 15 games.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

peak_reception said:


> Thanks phrelin, I didn't know about those details. Amazing that some members of Congress were trying to interject themselves into the matter!


Their constituents were upset. It's one thing if you are about to have your home foreclosed on, its another to have to miss an NFL game.:lol:


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I got a flyer in a sales sheet yesterday that still showes NFL in AT 100


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jclewter79 said:


> I got a flyer in a sales sheet yesterday that still showes NFL in AT 100


A reseller who has not updated their sales material (check the callback number and the name of the company making the offer).

However, the DishDVR Advantage flyer that DISH Network sent me with with my February (due March 12th) bill had NFL in AT 100 and NFL HD in AT100. 

They have to make these decisions EARLIER and make sure their printing is ahead of the changes!


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes it was a reseller.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

James Long said:


> However, the DishDVR Advantage flyer that DISH Network sent me with with my February (due March 12th) bill had NFL in AT 100 and NFL HD in AT100.
> 
> They have to make these decisions EARLIER and make sure their printing is ahead of the changes!


That's the thing. I think this was a unilateral move by Dish Network, in response to something else.

Once the news was released that the NFL Network would no longer be on AT100, Dish Network played the "free preview" card, even though it wasn't really. Then once the heat was turned up a bit, the Dish Network played the "exclusive game" card, which then seems a bit trivial. We'll punish the NFL Network and our subscribers by dropping it off of 4 million people. Dish Network will also save near $3 million a month in programming fees.

I don't know what cost-benefit analysis is being done, but I just don't think Dish Network thought this through, unless they have a "most favored nation" clause. Because Comcast was allowed to place NFL Network in a sports-only tier after a review by the courts, Dish Network may be correct that their contract was violated.

Dish Network gained the advantage by not telling anyone the NFL Network was being removed from AT100. The NFL has now taken them to court. The NFL Network cannot stop Dish Network from moving NFL Network to a higher entry package, as it has already been done. Any advance notice, and the NFL Network could probably have asked for an injunction to stop Dish Network from making the move, just like HD Net did to DirecTV.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I thik you are right Greg. It was intentional that no one knew about this. The only thing that I wonder about is why did they wait so long after the game to do this? I can understand waiting till the super bowl was over but, why not sooner?


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

Greg Bimson said:


> That's the thing. I think this was a unilateral move by Dish Network, in response to something else.
> 
> Once the news was released that the NFL Network would no longer be on AT100, Dish Network played the "free preview" card, even though it wasn't really. Then once the heat was turned up a bit, the Dish Network played the "exclusive game" card, which then seems a bit trivial. We'll punish the NFL Network and our subscribers by dropping it off of 4 million people. Dish Network will also save near $3 million a month in programming fees.
> 
> ...


I highlighted that part, Greg because an appeal court reversed that deal and has sent it back to court.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/s...e=NFLHeadlines



> NEW YORK -- An appeals court has ruled that cable TV giant Comcast Corp. and the NFL Network must return to court to determine what kind of viewing package fans need to catch their favorite football teams.
> 
> The state Appellate Division decision Tuesday reverses a lower court ruling that allowed Comcast to distribute NFL Network games in a sports package rather than in a larger digital package with more viewers.
> 
> ...


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

jclewter79 said:


> I got a flyer in a sales sheet yesterday that still showes NFL in AT 100


that's ok, JC

according to some here its not a solicitation fraud, and if you where to have a verbal conversation with them before you agreed to a deal it would no longer matter once you signed a contract under false representation.

coneman


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

James Long said:


> A reseller who has not updated their sales material (check the callback number and the name of the company making the offer).


It does not matter if its a reseller, They represent DISH and Dish is ultimately responsible. If they let resellers do this then its their funeral, because the buyer is screwed either way and they simply enforce the con after the fact as they did with me. ... That there are honest ways in which to treat people and that these perfect tv providers have duped alot of people with false promises!!!!!


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

The answer is the simple concept of wholesale retail, but the providers don't want to offer selective purchasing because they want to keep up the hype of !00-!50-200-250 channels, half of which must cost them nothing. 

If its supply and demand let the market decide what it wishes to pay for, I would like to have no more than 20 channels. history channel, lifetime, tvland, fx, tnt, tbs, bravo, espn all of them, nfl, discovery, bio, doc, ifc, link, there are a few more if I think hard enough about it. So, how much guys? 

I think they should offer a start up program where everything is available for 2 months, then people can decide exactly what they want and pay for it based on supply and demand, it is ridiculous to make all of the fuss over 70 cents a month, just charge me for it if you must. its not very much money!!!! , raise the cost of at100 by enough to make it worth your while, but then if they force me to spend $12 a month more for the benefit of a 70 cent channel I think the greed is obvious. I may pay $35 a month by subscribing to 20 channels. but that's all I want and if those channels are what is most viewed that is simple supply and demand. 

But please don't boor me with BS about exclusives and please stop the noise about your business problems and your need to disguise your behavior for fear of a injunction from the courts. etc......

I am a consumer who simply wants to buy what I chose to have and all of this is not what I choose to have.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I really don't think the 70 cents per month has anything to do with it at all. If Charlie thought the price was too high he would have dropped it all together and we would be seeing a special notice on some channel and link with news about it on the first page of the web page. The issue is that E* signed a contract that said that game would be a NFL channel exclusive game. It ended up not being. Charlie did the quickest thing could do by bumping this channel up a teir to affect the NFL's pocketbook. It is the NFL's fault that this channel is not on AT 100. I think everybody in here that is mad about losing this channel should send the NFL an email telling them how you feel about it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

conecaster

For DISH to be held responsible for every lie, every comment that one of their resellers or even employees make you would have to prove that DISH had a pattern or practice of overlooking or encouraging such behavior. The proper place to present that proof is in a court of law --- not here. This isn't the place for conspiracy theories.

This thread is also not about a la carte program offerings. It is about the relationship between one satellite company, DISH Network, with one content provider, the NFL.

And finally, this thread is not about personal attacks ... if you cannot discuss the issue without putdowns please don't participate. Said publicly as it seems that many posters have slipped into that mode lately. We're here to talk about DBS, not each other.

:backtotop

The big problems that I see with this issue is that DISH, whether right or wrong, has handled it poorly and that the NFL, whether right or wrong, has decided to use the courts to solve the problem. Now that it is in the courts don't expect any personal emails, petitions, etc. to the companies to make a difference.

DISH should have promoted the move of the NFL network to AT200 better - making sure that retailers were aware about it long enough in advance so _mistakes_ were not made in their advertising. Also making sure that _mistakes_ were not made in DISH's own advertising. No, I don't see a mistake in advertising as a coordinated effort intended to deceive.

Whoever came up with the "free preview" excuse should be identified and publicly fired to remove the blame from the company. Hopefully they didn't think too long to come up with that "reason" for moving the channel - and the decision didn't come from too high up in the company.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

jclewter79 said:


> The issue is that E* signed a contract that said that game would be a NFL channel exclusive game.


But we do not know that for sure. No one knows if Dish Network's contract specifically forbids NFL Network from taking a game from their network and giving it to the broadcast networks. This would be another issue that the courts would need to address, to interpret the contract.

I knew about the Comcast issue heading back to District Court. Both the NFL Network and Comcast are claiming victory, so there must be more room for interpretation.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

You are right Greg I must admit, I have not personally read that contract so I can't say for sure. But, I do know that until this history making game came up, we were told by the NFL through many outlets that the games that were slated for this channel were exclusive. The only exception would be OTA broadcast in the teams respective markets. Now, I do not think that the NFL let this game been seen to get more advertising E* has stated. I beleive that they just wanted to keep congress quite. But, the fact remains that what everybody was told was going to happen did not. When Dallas played Greenbay nobody in Grayson county TX with only cable got to see it. I was glad I had E* but even more glad I had OTA to get the HD Feed but, the fact remains that some in the Dallas Cowboys area did not get to watch because of DMA things. E* had me covered and thats what they wanted for all of them.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

James Long said:


> conecaster
> 
> For DISH to be held responsible for every lie, every comment that one of their resellers or even employees make you would have to prove that DISH had a pattern or practice of overlooking or encouraging such behavior. The proper place to present that proof is in a court of law --- not here. This isn't the place for conspiracy theories.
> 
> ...


This looks pretty clear James, they held up advance notice on this change so the NFL would not get an injunction, Right?

Did you read what JC said? he got a flyer in the mail the other day with NFL included in the at100, Are you trying to defend this blatant fraud? As for attacks, I guess some one can call me silly, or accuse me of thinking people are idiots?

I have a legitimate beef, I was lied to buy Dish, I use their info to make a decision, I appreciate your admission that they screwed up, even if you can't admit they committed a fraud.

OK


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

conecaster said:


> This looks pretty clear James, they held up advance notice on this change so the NFL would not get an injunction, Right?
> 
> Did you read what JC said? he got a flyer in the mail the other day with NFL included in the at100, Are you trying to defend this blatant fraud? As for attacks, I guess some one can call me silly, or accuse me of thinking people are idiots?
> 
> I have a legitimate beef, I was lied to buy Dish, I use their info to make a decision, I appreciate your admission that they screwed up, even if you can't admit they committed a fraud.


You keep trying to make this personal ... it isn't. None of us here work for DISH Network.

You are using terms like "blatant fraud". Really? Do you know anything about how such advertisements are handled? Making a mistake in your advertising is not blatant fraud. It is a mistake. Blatant fraud would be an intentional act ... such as portraying a mistake as fraud.

If you believe that DISH Network would _intentionally_ advertise NFL Network as part of AT 100 knowing that it was not included then there is a bridge in Brooklyn that I could sell you. If that makes you feel silly or an idiot that is your personal problem.

I don't consider you silly or an idiot ... but I am concerned that you apply intent to actions without any proof at all that the intent exists. Mistakes are not fraud.


----------



## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

conecaster said:


> I have a legitimate beef, I was lied to buy Dish, I use their info to make a decision, I appreciate your admission that they screwed up, even if you can't admit they committed a fraud.


The agreement you agreed to when you subscribed read as follows"

All prices, packages and programming subject to change without notice. Number of channels may decline.

So in your case, you got what you subscribed to at the time. The programming changed but they are not required to give notice. This is standard boilerplate that is in all services, no matter if it's E*, D* or cable.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

HobbyTalk said:


> The agreement you agreed to when you subscribed read as follows"
> 
> All prices, packages and programming subject to change without notice. Number of channels may decline.
> 
> So in your case, you got what you subscribed to at the time. The programming changed but they are not required to give notice. This is standard boilerplate that is in all services, no matter if it's E*, D* or cable.


Stop making sense! You might confuse people!!!!


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

James Long said:


> You keep trying to make this personal ... it isn't. None of us here work for DISH Network.
> 
> You are using terms like "blatant fraud". Really? Do you know anything about how such advertisements are handled? Making a mistake in your advertising is not blatant fraud. It is a mistake. Blatant fraud would be an intentional act ... such as portraying a mistake as fraud.
> ]intentionally[/I] advertise NFL Network as part of AT 100 knowing that it was not included then there is a bridge
> ...


OK, now that we have gotten beyond silly and idiotic,

I'll just answer your question, *yes*, I believe they knowingly sought to hide their programing change and conceal the fact that they intended to cancel the service while at the same time I was being solicited , why? because their behavior after the fact was no better than before, and because it appears they had something to hide, like trying to stay clear of a injunction to stop their intended actions.

They didn't give a hoot about a new subscriber, as you obviously don't, poke jabs at my situation by minimizing their actions as some little mistake. If was a little mistake they refused to deal with it and now are knowingly involved.

After 5 conversations with the same salesman I see nothing there to convince me that he is dishonest. But of course you presume it was the reseller even after I tell you that the DISH web site was used in my decision making process on or about the 18th of feb. , and that is dishonest and a fraud on the public to not post the intended change so a person can make an informed decision.

I am a private business person with an international reputation in my field. I know a thing or to about image and public perception in my 32 years of public exposure. You do not leave a person antagonized and you do not spare apology to them for your actions. I always say the words, I'm sorry this is not working out, or what can I do to correct the situation. DISH just hid from the facts and continued the shame, and that makes my blood boil.

If you think this is right, then I hear you, but I really don't respect you or your offer of the Brooklyn Bridge. So, I ask again, why do you get so defensive in regards to a company that you have no direct investment in. Why do you continue to presume, this just couldn't have happened to a Dish customer. If there is one thing that defines integrity its honesty. This was a complete scam job, and if it where not I would have been taken care of by DISH, not you or anyone else. all of this over 70 cents a month. No, this is very ridiculous position for a major company to take, they will wait until I'm gone, then they will be like a swarm of bees trying to solicit me all over again.

I grow tired of this assault, and so retire from any further comment expect to call it what it is one last time, *solicitation fraud*!!!!!!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

You have an opinion ... I don't agree with it. Hire a lawyer. See how far your assertions go.

BTW: After 32 years of public exposure perhaps you should pull up your pants?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Uhhh...actually guys while IMHO Dish wasn't planning to scam customers, it's likely the shift in tiers was planned in advance. Its rather obvious that Echostar/Dish is very combative and reactive, and the NFL screwed them to save its own posterior. For rather clever strategic reasons legally, Dish forced the NFL to sue it.

Customers? Oh yeah.... It appears sometimes that customers cease to be the priority in the "heat of the moment".

Where is that Dish lawsuits subforum? It'll help us keep track of the "moments".


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

James Long said:


> You have an opinion ... I don't agree with it. Hire a lawyer. See how far your assertions go.
> 
> BTW: After 32 years of public exposure perhaps you should pull up your pants?


I have legal advice on this, You obviously don't, so who's pants are really down?

I am not going to throw good chicken feed money after bad, this is a PR problem for DISH's business, not mine. I will simply take the easy way out because it will cost the least, that is the American legal system after all.

And, spare your hauty rebukes. I hope somebody takes advantage of you through solicitation fraud down the road and you remember your support of DISH in their taking advantage of my good will. 
P


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

phrelin said:


> Uhhh...actually guys while IMHO Dish wasn't planning to scam customers, it's likely the shift in tiers was planned in advance.
> 
> Then the right thing to do is tell some one before you go over and install a system.
> 
> ...


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## paja (Oct 23, 2006)

WOW!! Seems as if some ppl get just a little too fried over a relatively small issue. I wonder how your blood pressure gets over really important aspects of life. Sure, things are not always fair but move on. 

Sirius dropped a station I enjoyed but I made one complaint and then went on to enjoy the large amount of radio programming I have between Sirius, XM,AM/FM/HD2.
Same thing with television. I've had them all. Cable,Direct and now DISH. None of them is perfect, there seems as if there is always something to gripe about. 

Move on :nono2: :nono:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

conecaster said:


> I grow tired of this assault, and so retire from any further comment expect to call it what it is one last time, *solicitation fraud*!!!!!!


Ah, a promise not kept. Perhaps the members of the forum should file a class action against you for fraud. 

(Intended as a joke ... lighten up!)


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

Slightly off-topic, but relating to the topic...

Don't some states have laws against a material change? It is possible to bring this up to the states' Attorney Geenral's office, to see if this violates a state law. Most consumer rights laws are at the state level...


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Misprints happen ALL the time in advertising and the internet. Its a fact of life. get over it, you have 30 days to cancel your install with no penalty, I suggest doing that and moving over to D*. Oh, that's right, they don't have the NFL Network at all.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

DISH did have a 30 day return policy up until Feb of 2007 but that was only available if you agreed to the 18 month commit. You'd get back "most" of the money spent. That 30 days to cancel has been gone for over a year now.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

HobbyTalk said:


> Misprints happen ALL the time in advertising and the internet. Its a fact of life. get over it, you have 30 days to cancel your install with no penalty, I suggest doing that and moving over to D*. Oh, that's right, they don't have the NFL Network at all.


Huh?


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

HobbyTalk said:


> Misprints happen ALL the time in advertising and the internet. Its a fact of life. get over it, you have 30 days to cancel your install with no penalty, I suggest doing that and moving over to D*. Oh, that's right, they don't have the NFL Network at all.


D* doesn't?? Funny as I'm watching it right now in HD.....


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Thought it was an exclusive so D* wouldn't have it. Oh well, should be a good lession, don't believe anything you hear or read, do the investigation yourself. D* can gladly have this guy too


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

CABill said:


> DISH did have a 30 day return policy up until Feb of 2007 but that was only available if you agreed to the 18 month commit. You'd get back "most" of the money spent. That 30 days to cancel has been gone for over a year now.


Could be, I got mine in June '07 and almost cancelled because of no local HD channels. I could have gotten all my $$$ back but suppose each situation is different. Also through AT&T so maybe they have different rules.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

So today I get a bill from Dish.

So where are the free three months. Oh, I have an 18th month so called contract.

So they give me one month, except they credit me $39.99 for some unknown reason on my 32.99 service. Ok, so now they want me to pay them for two months out of the first three. Not what I was told. 

But the really screwy thing is they want to give me the 10th month free and the 20th month free. On a 18 month contract? 

These folks are out side the lines with this, you give me an 18 month contract then neglect to provide the free services you sold me.

These documents go to the State attorney General, and on top of that I will petition the FTC for action on solicitation fraud.

The gear goes back to DISH ASAP. 

Coneman is done


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

Actually read the contract you signed, that might help.  
If you activated your Dish account after Feb. 1, you are on a 24 month contract, not an 18 month. And I believe it is outlined in the contract when you would be given the free months.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

Slamminc11 said:


> Actually read the contract you signed, that might help.
> If you activated your Dish account after Feb. 1, you are on a 24 month contract, not an 18 month. And I believe it is outlined in the contract when you would be given the free months.


Uh, I did read the document I signed, it is 18 months.

What we have here is a bunch of verbal distortion and little else, but I intend to hold them to what was verbally agreed to when they sold me this service or I will not co-operate. they have a problem here, their offer does not match the contract I signed which isn't much of a contract in the first place.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Sounds like a personal problem between you and DISH ... off topic for this thread.

:backtotop (DISH's move of the NFL Network to AT 200)


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## svwspider (Jan 19, 2008)

peak_reception said:


> I remember when the NFL agreed to spread that Patriots/Giants game around on all the other outlets. I thought at the time "Hey, isn't that supposed to be something of a DISH exclusive?" but I figured DISH didn't object. Now we know better. Maybe even back then DISH didn't make a fuss because they had something like this (moving the channel up in the tiers) in mind? I just can't see the NFL doing what they did if DISH was firmly objecting at the time.


It was to be exclusive of those who have the NFL Channel, not just Dish or DTV, or the cable outlets that carry it.

Actually, take a step further back. Who really built the NFL? CBS, and NBC that's who, and in recent times, FOX. I wonder what their take is on losing televised games to the NFL's own channel?

Yes, the NFL is a greedy bunch of crooks, but for Dishnetwork to retaliate and hurt their own customers seems like a pretty hollow victory my friends. Yea, we won, but where the heck did my channel go....


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## svwspider (Jan 19, 2008)

jclewter79 said:


> I got a flyer in a sales sheet yesterday that still showes NFL in AT 100


I got one as well. It arrived 3/5/08!!! Still shows NFL Channel in AT100.

Misrepresentation continues.....

Dish is really losing credibility. I've recently written them to cancel my less than one
month subscription based upon misrepresentation by Dishnetwork, it's website, and it's very own telephone sale reps. After they quoted me the fees via phone, they raised them and when I called them, they told me the fees went up before my service began. I explained they are not what I was quoted when I signed up via phone and was then told, I'm sorry. To me, this makes them outright liars and cheats.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Is anyone really signing up for dish this time of year just to get NFL Network?


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

svwspider said:


> I got one as well. It arrived 3/5/08!!! Still shows NFL Channel in AT100.
> 
> Misrepresentation continues.....
> 
> ...


But, we must be aware that many people just don't care about ethics and morality.

I called to complain about the mis representation of the NFL and they acted like a stone wall.

I am writing their chief solicitor, Stanton R Dodge in Evergreen, Colo.

I have several distorted pieces of information here:

1) an 18 month agreement which defines no programing which I siogn after installation.

2) a bill which defines a 24 month agreement as it was sold to me except they removed the NFL with out notice and prior to installation.

3) they sent me notice they are retracting their original offer and claiming its because they can not verify my credit information.

This is what they did in this case:

They solicited me to purchase service, They negotiated a deal with me that included the NFL network, under a 24 month agreement with 3 months free.

They installed the system and handed me an 18 month contract.

They now are reneging on the entire deal they solicited me with and claiming its my fault because my credit is no good.

Hey, its their problem if they can't check my credit before installation. Its their problem they mis represented the NFL, and its their problem that I am going to get rid of them ASAP.

I will give them a grace period to respond and correct this fraud, a week. Then I will pack up this stuff they installed and place it on the counter at the local DISH office.

I will have to notify the credit agencies of this situation and plan to send them all documentation.

All of this, because some people in that company have their heads squarely up theirs a&@'s, and are so disconnected to how people will respond to such behavior.

It feels really good doesn't it, to have people lie to you.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

conecaster said:


> But, we must be aware that many people just don't care about ethics and morality.
> 
> I called to complain about the mis representation of the NFL and they acted like a stone wall.
> 
> ...


Your story changes more than Brittney Sprears changes hair styles.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

Originally Posted by CABill View Post
DISH did have a 30 day return policy up until Feb of 2007 but that was only available if you agreed to the 18 month commit. You'd get back "most" of the money spent. That 30 days to cancel has been gone for over a year now.


Please post any varification of this claim, I checked with my state's attorney general's office and was told in my state there is no cancellation period, as you describe. I do not know if there is federal statute that provides this option of not,

Thank you,

such information is very helpful. 

P


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

DCSholtis said:


> D* doesn't?? Funny as I'm watching it right now in HD.....


yTalk View Post
Misprints happen ALL the time in advertising and the internet. Its a fact of life. get over it, you have 30 days to cancel your install with no penalty, I suggest doing that and moving over to D*. Oh, that's right, they don't have the NFL Network at all.

If you mean directtv, they have the NFL net. plus they have the exclusive on the seasons pass. If you read my story it goes way beyond mis prints.

Please post anything you have which gives me the right to cancel, it is exactly what I'm looking for, but I have found no authority to do this without buying them out.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

conecaster said:


> But, we must be aware that many people just don't care about ethics and morality.
> 
> ...
> 
> It feels really good doesn't it, to have people lie to you.


Yeah, I read it all the time in threads complaining about DISH Network. 



conecaster said:


> I checked with my state's attorney general's office and was told in my state there is no cancellation period, as you describe. I do not know if there is federal statute that provides this option of not,


You are looking in the wrong places. You seem to be expecting the government to bail you out of this situation ... a federal consumer protection law would do that ... or a state law in your state. (I had to involke a state law on a home improvement contract last year that I was fast talked into signing one night. My state requires that contractors give three days to cancel the kind of work they were pushing and that they notify potential customers at the time of signing.)

Unless there is a state law that requires consumer protection the only place left to turn is the company you are buying from. Many good companies offer their own 14 day cancellation policy ... or shorter or longer depending on the company ... without being compelled or required to do so by a law. And, per CABill's message, that is what DISH did until February 2007.

But keep reading his message to where he states that DISH no longer offers that 30 days to cancel. If you can't find any "proof" that DISH _offers_ a 30 day cancellation period today you're basically proving CABill right.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

conecaster said:


> Please post any varification of this claim, I checked with my state's attorney general's office and was told in my state there is no cancellation period, as you describe. I do not know if there is federal statute that provides this option of not,


You shouldn't read my post as claiming there is any cancellation period at all. Several states do have 3 day periods for any contract, but there is nothing at any state or federal level with 14 days or 30 days. DISH did offer such a 30 day cancel for some time. IIRC, it was a response to DirecTV's offer of the same, but that's just from memory, hardly verifyable.

The current DHA agreement can be found at http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/offers/disclaimers/dha/ which no longer mentions the 30 day guarantee. I *THINK* I've quoted the 30 day part here at DBSTalk while it was in effect, but maybe now. Previously, it was usually found at dishtv.com where "DISHBuilder" lived, but that appears to also have changed in Feb 07(??).

If you set the Wayback machine to Q1 2007, you can probably find the prior version when there was such a guarantee in effect, but I don't see how it is going to help you any. But you can go to http://www.waybackmachine.org and paste "www.dishnetwork.com/content/offers/disclaimers/dha/" then click on the 24Feb07 version. Sorry, that's too late and only has the "new" version with no mention of a guarantee. Check
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.dishtv.com/terms_dha04.jsp and click Jun 06 version. You should find the OLD Money Back Guarantee section that doesn't appear in the Feb 07 version on Dishnetwork.com:


> Money Back Guarantee. Solely in the event that you have agreed to an eighteen month agreement by completing the eighteen month agreement selection field and then clicking on the corresponding "Continue" button during the dishnetwork.com online ordering process for this promotion ("Qualifying Eighteen Month Agreement Subscriber") and determine within thirty (30) days from the date of initial activation (the "Thirty-Day Guarantee Period") that you are not completely satisfied with your DISH Network service, you are automatically eligible to terminate this Agreement within the Thirty-Day Guarantee Period.
> ... blah, blah ...


You can also click on other dates to see when the Guarantee went into effect, but it really doesn't seem like what DISH used to offer before Feb 07 is going to help you any.


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

conecaster said:


> Please post any varification of this claim, I checked with my state's attorney general's office and was told in my state there is no cancellation period, as you describe. I do not know if there is federal statute that provides this option of not,


A lot of people quote the Federal Trade Commission's "Cooling-Off Rule" as giving you 3 business days to back out of any transaction, but this is not always the case.

From the above link:


> If you buy something at a store and later change your mind, you may not be able to return the merchandise. But if you buy an item in your home or at a location that is not the seller's permanent place of business, you may have the option. The Federal Trade Commission's (FTC's) Cooling-Off Rule gives you three days to cancel purchases of $25 or more. Under the Cooling-Off Rule, your right to cancel for a full refund extends until midnight of the third business day after the sale.
> 
> The Cooling-Off Rule applies to sales at the buyer's home, workplace or dormitory, or at facilities rented by the seller on a temporary or short-term basis, such as hotel or motel rooms, convention centers, fairgrounds and restaurants. The Cooling-Off Rule applies even when you invite the salesperson to make a presentation in your home.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

CABill said:


> You shouldn't read my post as claiming there is any cancellation period at all. Several states do have 3 day periods for any contract, but there is nothing at any state or federal level with 14 days or 30 days. DISH did offer such a 30 day cancel for some time. IIRC, it was a response to DirecTV's offer of the same, but that's just from memory, hardly verifyable.
> 
> The current DHA agreement can be found at http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/offers/disclaimers/dha/ which no longer mentions the 30 day guarantee. I *THINK* I've quoted the 30 day part here at DBSTalk while it was in effect, but maybe now. Previously, it was usually found at dishtv.com where "DISHBuilder" lived, but that appears to also have changed in Feb 07(??).
> 
> ...


Dish did discontinued the 30 day MBG over a year ago now (2/07). I'm sure at some point the guy is going to change the story again to include the 30 day into what Dish promised him as well.


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

James Long said:


> Yeah, I read it all the time in threads complaining about DISH Network.
> 
> You are looking in the wrong places. You seem to be expecting the government to bail you out of this situation ... a federal consumer protection law would do that ... or a state law in your state. (I had to involke a state law on a home improvement contract last year that I was fast talked into signing one night. My state requires that contractors give three days to cancel the kind of work they were pushing and that they notify potential customers at the time of signing.)
> 
> ...


I would say its Dish that is using the law to bully me.

This is not about my desire to use government, Its about a large company's perception of perogative.

Bail me out? you presume again I need bailing out.

I will simply take this gear back and send their flakey documentation on to their executive offices, along with copies to the credit reporting agencies, the State Attorney general and the FTC. This is not about what has happened since installation, its about what happened before.

But apparently you don't seem to agree that they failed to honestly represent a product.

I hear you, I heard you last week,

Thanks to everyone who put up the data on this cancellation policy. I knew the 30 day cancellation offer was rescinded. But so long as it appeared to be used as a means to dismiss my situation, I thought I'd let others state the facts.

Thank you


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## conecaster (Feb 27, 2008)

Slamminc11 said:


> Dish did discontinued the 30 day MBG over a year ago now (2/07). I'm sure at some point the guy is going to change the story again to include the 30 day into what Dish promised him as well.


Hey BUDDY!!!

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your DVR box. :lol:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

conecaster said:


> I would say its Dish that is using the law to bully me.


No. The fact that there is (apparently) no law to protect you is not DISH's fault. DISH is working within the law and within the contract that you agreed to. If you made a poor choice that's your personal problem.



> I will simply take this gear back and send their flakey documentation on to their executive offices, along with copies to the credit reporting agencies, the State Attorney general and the FTC. This is not about what has happened since installation, its about what happened before.


DISH is fair with customers who have problems as long as those customers are fair with dish. The more you involve the government and potentially lawyers the further you get away from an easy solution.

In other words, you are only hurting yourself by taking a hard line bully stance against a multi-billion dollar operation. Sugar goes further than vinegar.



> I hear you, I heard you last week,


Apparently not. Every day you delay makes it more difficult to correct this problem. You can claim ignorance at the time you signed up, but the NFL channels have not been in AT100 for nearly three weeks. It isn't like you woke up yesterday and they were gone. You are no longer ignorant of that particular fact.

In fact, it seems that it would have been very simple for you to back out of the deal as soon as you found out the channel was moving. But you chose to fight. Good luck with your "mission".


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## John W (Dec 20, 2005)

Tonight Charlie explained his reasoning. Boils down to the NFL giving the last regular season game away free to broadcast tv.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Huh?

Oh yeah, that was the topic of this thread.
I like the way Charlie explained it. Basically:


> We signed an amendment and paid for exclusive games. Exclusive was broken. We dropped the amendment that allowed us to put it in AT100 (back to original contract).


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## STEELERSRULE (Apr 4, 2007)

Use Dish NOW!/YA! and all of your arguments/headaches go away(for the most part).

You are not beholden to them(Dish) under any cicumstances.

Downside is they are not beholden to you. They kinda look at the prepaid subs as dregs of there financial structure.

Downside of Prepaid:

1. No local OTA stations at all. All you give is your zip code, and that is it. So you could basically give a zip code in NJ, and live in NW Pennsylvania. How the hell would they know. Therefore, this is unallowed and never will be due to FCC restrictions. Also no chance to sign up for distants either, but that could change. Good news is all you need is an antenna, and you can get those channels no problem(analog until Feb 2009, and Digital/HD for FREE!!!!)

2. No local RSN(Regional Sports Network) available. This KINDA SUCKS. I am a Pirates fan(thank you for your condolences. NO ONE WILL ACCUSE ME OF BEING A FRONTRUNNER!!!), and they show there games on FSNPittsburgh, so this kinda blows.

3. Only offers the one room DP301 or Phillips 3900 for now. This could change to modified 322 down the road, but who knows.

4. No PPV. This could be the one thing that could change in the immediate future, as the ability to sell prepaid PPV cards that can be used for PPV events could be the next step in this service. But who knows.

Anyway, you control everything.

Can start/stop anytime you want on almost all the programming(AT Family, AT100, AT200, AT250, Latino Packages, HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, Starz, Adult programming) coming off of 110, and 119.

Want to sign up for a day to a certain premium channel or AT level? Go ahead.

Want to prepay for a year in advance on one of the AT packages? Go ahead(Or for a premium channel for that matter).

No more *****ing about not getting what you want, or what you supposedly signed up for. This is all gone.

And hopefully the first step to full out A la carte programming/channels for anyone who wants to pay for it upfront.

But, of course, some don't like this course of action.


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## tymekeeper (Jan 11, 2008)

conecaster said:


> I got a deal for Dish,
> 
> So the cost of the NFL net is 70 cents,
> 
> ...


I wouldn't mind paying $1 more a month for NFL, But I was duped also. Just signed up in December and never told NFL was coming off in February. I hope they bring it back free on the AT 100 during the summer and that way the NFL get a monetary punishment and all of us are happy. They should also tell us they are going to do this.


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## tymekeeper (Jan 11, 2008)

jclewter79 said:


> I really don't think the 70 cents per month has anything to do with it at all. If Charlie thought the price was too high he would have dropped it all together and we would be seeing a special notice on some channel and link with news about it on the first page of the web page. The issue is that E* signed a contract that said that game would be a NFL channel exclusive game. It ended up not being. Charlie did the quickest thing could do by bumping this channel up a teir to affect the NFL's pocketbook. It is the NFL's fault that this channel is not on AT 100. I think everybody in here that is mad about losing this channel should send the NFL an email telling them how you feel about it.


Do you have an e-mail address for the NFL? Can't find one on their web site!


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## tymekeeper (Jan 11, 2008)

I like the way Charlie explained it. Basically:
Quote:
We signed an amendment and paid for exclusive games. Exclusive was broken. We dropped the amendment that allowed us to put it in AT100 (back to original contract).

Anyone have Chalies e-mail address? They sure don't make it easy to find them. Maybe if we all emailed Charlie he might consider not punishing his customers for what the NFL did to D


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Since this move is saving DISH Network money I doubt if a few emails will change Mr Ergen's mind, but the only address given is [email protected] (or [email protected]) and it's answered by a team of people who try to take care of problems that are beyond normal CSRs. I expect an "I want NFL in AT100" complaint will receive the same answer as we got on the chat.

This issue is currently in the courts as well ... another reason for DISH not to reverse their decision (other than the money).

Speaking of money, if the NFL Network is so important to you why not spend $144 more per year and get it, CSTV, Speed and 31 other channels plus your own RSN?


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

No, I don't have an email address for the NFL but, I will look for one for you.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

http://www.nfl.com/contact-us

You can email the NFL from this page.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

jclewter79 said:


> http://www.nfl.com/contact-us
> 
> You can email the NFL from this page.


That would be nice but:


> NOTE: This form is solely for e-mail pertaining to the NFL.com web site. We are unable to respond to email relating to the NFL itself.


I've checked that website before, From that web site there is no way to send an "email relating to the NFL itself". In fact, unless you want to send fan email to players, I can't find anything on the web providing contact to the NFL.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Try this page and change the text of the email sent.

http://capwiz.com/nflnetwork/take_action.html


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

HobbyTalk said:


> Try this page and change the text of the email sent.
> 
> http://capwiz.com/nflnetwork/take_action.html


That form sends the e-mail to:


> Message Recipients:
> Your U.S. Senators
> Your U.S. House Representative
> Your Governor
> ...


_not_ to the NFL itself.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Well, congress was the ones to put pressure on the NFL to broadcast that game. They should be the ones to know what effect their pressure had. Besdies, it's an NFL supported web site, you think they don't get a copy too?


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## tymekeeper (Jan 11, 2008)

James Long said:


> Since this move is saving DISH Network money I doubt if a few emails will change Mr Ergen's mind, but the only address given is [email protected] (or [email protected]) and it's answered by a team of people who try to take care of problems that are beyond normal CSRs. I expect an "I want NFL in AT100" complaint will receive the same answer as we got on the chat.
> 
> This issue is currently in the courts as well ... another reason for DISH not to reverse their decision (other than the money).
> 
> Speaking of money, if the NFL Network is so important to you why not spend $144 more per year and get it, CSTV, Speed and 31 other channels plus your own RSN?


Thanks for your reply James. Money is important, I am retired and on a fixed income. I have never had cable or satelite because of all the worthless channels, and cables poor picture quality, you had to pay for. Dish AT 100 afforded me the most channels for the least price and NFL Network, which I only care about during the regular season and really only Dallas games was part of that package. Now Dish raised prices 10% and took away a channel


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## Bobham (Jan 26, 2008)

As I understand it, certain companies including E* licensed the NFL Network with the understanding that games broadcast on this network would not be generally available elsewhere. This year, with huge public interest in a potentially undefeated season, I think E* expected a large influx of customers since the game was to be shown only on the NFL network. Instead, the NFL licensed the game to broadcast networks to maximize the viewership and advertising revenue. Apparently their contracts with cable and satellite systems permitted them to do so.

In retaliation (I think), E* moved the NFL network up a Tier to punish the NFL Network (by lessening viewership and advertising revenue), and perhaps to put themselves into a better bargaining position for next season.

I would not be surprised to see the NFL network moved back into the Top 100 tier before the season starts.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Probably so. For both its all about money. Fans and viewers, not so much.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The court denied the NFL Network's request for a temporary restraining order that would have prevented DISH from returning the NFL Network channel to "AT200" - but it is important to note that in the denial the court acknowledged that the NFL Network _may_ win the case.

It all comes down to what was promised. A deal was struck where DISH would carry the network at the AT100 level (most widely distributed) in exchange for carriage of the Thursday-Saturday game package. Specific wording in the contract cancels the deal if the Thursday-Saturday game package is no longer offered. DISH claims that the loss of exclusive carriage of the Patriots-Giants game ended the Thursday-Saturday game package.

The NFL Network is relying on a clause that relates to government interference and is claiming that the government forced them to carry the Patriots-Giants game on other channels.

You can read all about it in the attached ruling!


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