# FCC proposes ATSC 3.0 standard for 4K TV - no US TV's meet standard



## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Back on February 3, this story was making the rounds in the tech news FCC Pushing for ATSC 3.0 Standard for Over-the-Air 4K Broadcasting With HDR

As of yesterday, 2/24/2017 the news is:

The FCC just gave you a reason to hold off on buying a 4K TV explains that there are no ATSC 3.0 TV's available in the U.S.

FCC gives broadcasters go-ahead for ATSC 3.0 next-gen TV services which offers this from the National Association of Broadcasters: 
"NAB commends the FCC and Chairman Pai for taking the first step towards approving the voluntary adoption of Next Gen TV. This innovative broadcast transmission standard offers free and local TV viewers the promise of higher-quality pictures and sound, mobile viewership, datacasting and lifesaving interactive emergency information. With support from television manufacturers, public TV stations and the public safety community, NAB looks forward to Next Gen TV's giant leap into broadcasting's bright future," said Dennis Wharton, executive vice president of communications for the NAB, in a statement.​
FCC Seeks Comment On Rule To Let TV Stations Test Next Gen Transmissions which offers:
What's more, ATSC 3.0 is the "first transmission standard to marry the advantages of broadcasting and the Internet. And it's based on Internet Protocol, or IP, which will permit seamless integration with other IP-based services and platforms."

Since the new standard is not backward-compatible, the FCC proposal would require stations participating in the test to maintain the signals that serve today's TV sets and tuners.

The new FCC plan would not require cable and satellite companies that carry stations' programming to retransmit the ATSC 3.0 signals. Stations using the new standard would still be subject to FCC's public interest obligations.​
The problem being that 4K came on the market without a broadcast standard. Once the standard is in place, it will become the standard for broadcast, cable, DVD's, and streaming.


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

Proves What ever you buy today is Tomorrows possible Junk - When and If 4K becomes the HD of today - I may be willing to jump in until then HD is Fine for my tied eyes.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Glad I am a hold over. sometimes it sucks to be on the cutting edge. 


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Someone can make a box and it'll be fine to connect to your tvs just like a satellite box.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> Someone can make a box and it'll be fine to connect to your tvs just like a satellite box.


Right, but an unnecessary box.

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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

It will be time to change TVs to 8k when they do that. LOL


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Given that a few TVs have already started shipping without tuners, I wouldn't be surprised if the response from TV makers is to drop the tuners entirely and sell them as 'displays' rather than add an ATSC 3.0 tuner. There will be no mandate to include ATSC 3.0 tuners in TVs like there was with ATSC & QAM tuners when HDTVs were first sold.

Probably only 1-2% of TV buyers connect to the tuner alone and don't use some sort of external cable/satellite/streaming/disc player box, so it probably doesn't make sense for them to pay the patent fees for ATSC 3.0 for a feature that few will use, and then they can sell the same model worldwide since they don't have to do ATSC for North America and Korea, DVB-T2 for Europe and ISDB-T for the rest of the world.

Also, I wouldn't bet on ATSC 3.0 meaning we'll see 4K TV broadcasts. A lot of stations will probably use the extra 7 Mbps bandwidth it provides to broadcast HD subchannels, or some sort of encrypted sideband content.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

peds48 said:


> Right, but an unnecessary box.


My first HDTV was "HDTV Ready" with no ATSC tuner (NTSC only, with HDMI and other inputs for HD). I survived ... and being a satellite subscriber I have never been in a position where a box was not needed - regardless of the capability of the set.

In other words, the box was necessary for other reasons anyways ... and still is. RVU or a "software box" built into the TV where an app takes the place of the receiver would be the only exception to needing a physical box. Which is the direction a lot of TVs have gone. Build "smart" apps into the TV to retrieve content for display instead of relying on a tuner.

ATSC 3.0 OTA is so unlikely that I wouldn't worry about buying a TV that didn't have an ATSC 3.0 tuner.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

James Long said:


> My first HDTV was "HDTV Ready" with no ATSC tuner (NTSC only, with HDMI and other inputs for HD). I survived ... and being a satellite subscriber I have never been in a position where a box was not needed - regardless of the capability of the set.
> 
> In other words, the box was necessary for other reasons anyways ... and still is. RVU or a "software box" built into the TV where an app takes the place of the receiver would be the only exception to needing a physical box. Which is the direction a lot of TVs have gone. Build "smart" apps into the TV to retrieve content for display instead of relying on a tuner.
> 
> ATSC 3.0 OTA is so unlikely that I wouldn't worry about buying a TV that didn't have an ATSC 3.0 tuner.


Right, but for those folks who relied on OTA, it means having another STB on top of their cable box.

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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Given that a few TVs have already started shipping without tuners, I wouldn't be surprised if the response from TV makers is to drop the tuners entirely and sell them as 'displays' rather than add an ATSC 3.0 tuner.


Our "home theater" TV is a 2003 Panasonic 42" Plasma 720p which has no tuner, just jacks for computer and, in terms of HD, component TV input. IMHO it still has the best picture in the house and that includes comparing it to a Samsung 46" whizbangallthewhistles one we have in our bedroom. And in 2003 everyone said plasmas wouldn't last very long.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

phrelin said:


> And in 2003 everyone said plasmas wouldn't last very long.


Panasonic estimated that based on repair records and their research, their sixth generation and newer plasma panels (basically anything made after 2004 or so) would have an average lifespan of 42 years. I've got around 20 of them, and they are all still working. One of the oldest (7th generation 2005 model) is starting to show a few pink pixels in white areas so I'll have to replace it before long, especially since it is only 42".

I just need a good replacement. I had to replace a couple of LG plasmas over the last couple years that had the power supply board fail (the panels were still fine) and tried LCD, but the mid range 4K model I tried (LG 6850 or something like that) looked terrible compared to the plasmas because of the washed out blacks and muddy motion. It wouldn't be so bad if I had all LCDs, but sitting next to the plasmas just highlights the shortcomings. I wish I'd found someone to fix them, but at the time it seemed silly to spend hundreds of dollars to fix TVs purchased in 2007. It does appear a bit sharper, and is a hell of lot lighter, but those are the only advantages (the "smart" features are useless to me)

I'm probably going OLED in the future since prices are starting to become reasonable - the first will be for my home so I can take the plasma to the bar to replace that old one that's going pink on me


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

My attempt to jump into 4K bandwagon using LG TV set [43UF6907] wasn't satisfied - I feel some blur by my vision...
Because of LG technology ?
New LG RGBW 4K Ultra HD LCD Line Sparks Debate | HD Guru


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

James Long said:


> My first HDTV was "HDTV Ready" with no ATSC tuner (NTSC only, with HDMI and other inputs for HD). I survived ... and being a satellite subscriber I have never been in a position where a box was not needed - regardless of the capability of the set.
> 
> In other words, the box was necessary for other reasons anyways ... and still is. RVU or a "software box" built into the TV where an app takes the place of the receiver would be the only exception to needing a physical box. Which is the direction a lot of TVs have gone. Build "smart" apps into the TV to retrieve content for display instead of relying on a tuner.
> 
> ATSC 3.0 OTA is so unlikely that I wouldn't worry about buying a TV that didn't have an ATSC 3.0 tuner.


I can't remember the last time I used a tuner on a TV.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> Panasonic estimated that based on repair records and their research, their sixth generation and newer plasma panels (basically anything made after 2004 or so) would have an average lifespan of 42 years. I've got around 20 of them, and they are all still working. One of the oldest (7th generation 2005 model) is starting to show a few pink pixels in white areas so I'll have to replace it before long, especially since it is only 42".
> 
> I just need a good replacement. I had to replace a couple of LG plasmas over the last couple years that had the power supply board fail (the panels were still fine) and tried LCD, but the mid range 4K model I tried (LG 6850 or something like that) looked terrible compared to the plasmas because of the washed out blacks and muddy motion. It wouldn't be so bad if I had all LCDs, but sitting next to the plasmas just highlights the shortcomings. I wish I'd found someone to fix them, but at the time it seemed silly to spend hundreds of dollars to fix TVs purchased in 2007. It does appear a bit sharper, and is a hell of lot lighter, but those are the only advantages (the "smart" features are useless to me)
> 
> I'm probably going OLED in the future since prices are starting to become reasonable - the first will be for my home so I can take the plasma to the bar to replace that old one that's going pink on me


Damn things never die!

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> My attempt to jump into 4K bandwagon using LG TV set [43UF6907] wasn't satisfied - I feel some blur by my vision...
> Because of LG technology ?
> New LG RGBW 4K Ultra HD LCD Line Sparks Debate | HD Guru


Try a Sammy 8 series set.

Rich


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

on local market I've seen other [European] makers like Philips; what is stop me from trials - return policies; man ! it's absolutely anti-customers  - no money return, only the store credit, for full amount of the credit, TV must be return in UNopened box(!), the credit will expire(!) in 6 months, damn ! Plus each store could establish own rules, duh ! Common EU rule is _one_ week policy for claim a return. But to convince follow the rule store manager is impossible, they got your money already, so by default you lost the case !


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> on local market I've seen other [European] makers like Philips; what is stop me from trials - return policies; man ! it's absolutely anti-customers  - no money return, only the store credit, for full amount of the credit, TV must be return in UNopened box(!), the credit will expire(!) in 6 months, damn ! Plus each store could establish own rules, duh ! Common EU rule is _one_ week policy for claim a return. But to convince follow the rule store manager is impossible, they got your money already, so by default you lost the case !


Costco gives you 90 days to return a TV set. Amazon gives you 30 days. BB gives you 15 days, I think...not sure.

Rich


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

yeah Costco, Fry's ... just not there now


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Strange how the US has better return policies on TVs, when the EU generally has far more consumer friendly laws. I guess competition amongst resellers works (at least here in the US) for consumer-favorable return policies in some stores, but competition amongst OEMs does not - i.e. the one year warranty or in some cases 90 day warranty most electronics are sold with in the US. The EU has laws about warranties so they can't offer any that short.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I watch OTA at least some on most days. Now - most of the time - that's an OTA tuner on a DBS receiver - but - the point is I still watch OTA (it's gotten ALOT better with ATSC (you get a great picture or nothing) ). I wouldn't have any problem using the TV tuner, but the wife likes the all in one convience. 

I've been thinking about getting a 4K TV - maybe I should hold off....


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

scooper said:


> I watch OTA at least some on most days. Now - most of the time - that's an OTA tuner on a DBS receiver - but - the point is I still watch OTA (it's gotten ALOT better with ATSC (you get a great picture or nothing) ). I wouldn't have any problem using the TV tuner, but the wife likes the all in one convience.
> 
> *I've been thinking about getting a 4K TV - maybe I should hold off*....


Get one. The prices should start dropping on the 2016 models at the end of March and the sales should continue into April. You don't know what you're missing. Yeah, D* has little content but you won't believe the PQ you'll get on the TV apps or from a streaming box (the ATV4 is the best streaming box, I think). Even the D* content will look a lot better, the upscaling engines on the 4K sets gives you a picture that has to be seen to be believed. I'd recommend a Samsung TV in the 8 Series.

Rich


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

The ATV4 is a nice box, doesn't do 4K though. FireTV is also a nice box and it does 4K just fine.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> The ATV4 is a nice box, doesn't do 4K though. FireTV is also a nice box and it does 4K just fine.


I've got 3 FTV1 boxes. All of them have juddering problems with Amazon. Have no idea why. My TV apps are fine with Amazon as are my BD upscalers. My son recently purchased a new FTV2 box and had to return it due to audio problems. Last one I bought, mainly to use for 4K offerings on NF and especially AP (the UI on my TV apps is a bit of a PITA when using AP) pixellated terribly. I realize the problems we've had recently are probably just due to the individual boxes but they just don't seem to be as reliable as the ATVs.

Yeah, the ATV4 doesn't do 4K, but I honestly don't see much of a difference between the 4K content on my TV apps and the upscaled from 1080p picture of the ATV4 when using NF or any other app. An Amazon app would make the new 4K ATV5 boxes near perfect when they arrive later this year.

Again, this is all subjective.

Rich


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I have a FireTV from last year. It isn't used very much at this point.


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