# Stop Trying to Turn My DVR into a Tivo



## mikek (May 18, 2007)

If I wanted a Tivo I would have bought a Tivo. Stop trying to turn the HR20s/21s into Tivos.

What do you want next? An animated character that records shows that you never requested?

-mk


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

huh ?????


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Double huh ??


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

Hi Mike...can u clarify?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

1. Huh?
2. Feel free to turn my Hr20 into a Tivo.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

It seems like this community is very Tivo-centric. I know most users are former/current Tivo users. 

It seems like the features that get added to the HR20s are because former Tivo users demand them.

A couple of examples: Skip to tick is practically worthless, would rather have true skip instead of auto-correction.

If more users were familiar with other DVRs maybe we could get other features that Tivo didn't have.

-mk


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

I'm not Mike but I think I know what he means. 

"Animated character"=TiVo mascot 
"Records shows that you never requested"=TiVo Suggestions.


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## keithlm (Nov 6, 2007)

Not sure why the OP is complaining. Getting more features is generally ALWAYS going to be better; there is nothing wrong with features that Tivo has. (I'm not sure about the "tick" stuff.... it's not something I use.)

Personally I would like to see the "List" view instead of the "grid" view.

(And don't tell me about the pseudo method that can be used to kind of provide the same functionality. It's too slow and as such is not useful... it requires a button press and pause for every channel change... NOT acceptable.)


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## shelland (Jul 10, 2007)

I admittedly haven't really learned many of the HR20 features yet, because it's not on our primary TV. 

But there are only two features that I truly miss from Tivo:
1. dual-live-buffers (which I honestly probably use even more than 'record')
2. editing of "channels I receive"

I also wish they'd add more favorite menus, but that has nothing to do with Tivo...


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

shelland said:


> But there are only two features that I truly miss from Tivo:
> 
> 2. editing of "channels I receive"


 Since the edits nerver 'stick' and stuff just keeps getting put back in after you remove it, what's the use?


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## Vegas (Mar 2, 2006)

mikek said:


> What do you want next? An animated character that records shows that you never requested?
> 
> -mk


YES, please, I really miss Tivo's suggestions.


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

Vegas said:


> YES, please, I really miss Tivo's suggestions.


Me too. These turned me on to several new series I watch as well as recording a lot of movies without me having to remember names of the movies or proactively search them out.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

I am a former/current Tivo user and when it dies it will be kicked to the curb and replaced with an HRxx and a new HDTV. I like my HR20's.


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## JerseyBoy (Sep 1, 2006)

I agree with the OP. I used Replaytv for years before going to the HR10-250 to get HD. For the 18 months that I used the HR10 I cursed TiVo every day because it was such an inferior product to ReplayTV. Being a software engineer with over 30 years of experience and several with a video compression chip company it has always been my opinion that ReplayTV hired very good engineers and the worlds worst marketing and TiVo did the opposite. The HR20 is orders of magnitude better than the HR10 and I pray that Directv never goes back to TiVo. The only reason I can see that people want TiVo is so they when talking about a program that was on they can say I TiVo'd it instead of using proper English and saying I recorded it.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

mikek said:


> A couple of examples: Skip to tick is practically worthless, would rather have true skip instead of auto-correction.


Exactly what kind of skip are you looking for?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

keithlm said:


> Not sure why the OP is complaining. Getting more features is generally ALWAYS going to be better; there is nothing wrong with features that Tivo has. (I'm not sure about the "tick" stuff.... it's not something I use.)
> 
> *Personally I would like to see the "List" view instead of the "grid" view.*
> 
> (And don't tell me about the pseudo method that can be used to kind of provide the same functionality. It's too slow and as such is not useful... it requires a button press and pause for every channel change... NOT acceptable.)


:welcome_s 
YES! YES! YES! absolutely YES!


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## coacho (Aug 21, 2007)

Jerseyboy, are the replaytv features that are better than tivo included in the HR20 wish list? You see I want an HR1020 ( best features of Tivo and HR20 and now replaytv). IMHO opinion, which you seem to confirm, we are going backwards, if replaytv was the best, then Tivo, then the HR20 and now the HR21......


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

mikek said:


> It seems like this community is very Tivo-centric. I know most users are former/current Tivo users.
> 
> It seems like the features that get added to the HR20s are because former Tivo users demand them.
> 
> ...


Fair observation, many of us are long time DirecTV subscribers who owned DVRs which happened to be Tivos. The Tivo is a fantastic interface. It is extremely user friendly and has helped usher in the DVR. The Tivo has a lot of excellent features.

Skip to tick is truly broken in the HR20. They need to fix it to be like Tivo.


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## linerjoe (Nov 12, 2007)

Thaedron said:


> Fair observation, many of us are long time DirecTV subscribers who owned DVRs which happened to be Tivos. The Tivo is a fantastic interface. It is extremely user friendly and has helped usher in the DVR. The Tivo has a lot of excellent features.
> 
> Skip to tick is truly broken in the HR20. They need to fix it to be like Tivo.


Totally agree.

joe


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## Snoofie (May 29, 2003)

The closer the HR20 gets to being a Tivo the happier I will be. There are a bunch of features that are perfect on Tivo and would be welcomed by me to be added on the HR20. Besides dual buffers, the bigget think I would like would a guide similar to the Tivo guide insted of the grid guide we have now.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

gcisko said:


> Exactly what kind of skip are you looking for?


The kind that either of the other DVRs I have used. Replaytv had a 30 second skip, auto commercial skip, manual commercial skip and a skip to whenever you want.

LG had a skip that is 1/30 of the program length. So it is 2 minutes for an hour recording.

-mk


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## kstefanec (May 13, 2007)

When I get to the commercials, I hit skip the number of times I think there will be commercials, usually 5 or 6. HR20 gets it right on. Not sure what the problem is. 

What is wrong with the HR20 guide grid?!? Makes perfect intuative sense to me.

TIVO bye bye. Never really liked the look of the interface. Too cartoonish looking like Windows XP. I always change to classic view, BTW. I really only miss the dual buffers but we can debate that all day long. 

And what's with the goofy thumbs? Never liked them, either. Still don't know what they're for. And don't pick programs I want to watch! I can find enough crap to watch on my own. I turned that junk off right away.

So why is TIVO better again?


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## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

OK, there are a few things I like better about the HR20 than the TiVo. It is nice to see how much space I have left. And it is really nice that I could plug in an eSATA drive and have it just work. And it is nice that all the outputs are always active. But, given the choice, I'd still pick TiVo in a heartbeat.

*Usability *- TiVo's interface is simple and consistent. I never had to hunt for anything or think hard about what I was doing. After a month of daily use, I still have to look for things in the HR20 menus.

One current gripe - I have the playlist sorted by title (something that should be very easy to do and change). TiVo is smart - it sorts programs and folders by title, but programs within folders by date. So episodes within a folder were in the correct order. HR20 carries the sort by title too far, sorting episodes in the folder by title, too. So, I have to look at each date to figure out which episode to watch next.

One other gripe is that changing the current favorites list is much more complicated than it should be. And while I'm at it, I don't really expect to have to go into "Settings" to set up recordings. Settings should be reserved for changing how the device works.

*Reliability *- My TiVo's "just worked". I never worried about missing a recording, partial recordings, or figuring out what happened when something didn't record. Having to reset was extremely rare. I haven't had that many problems with the HR20 -- but I have had one partial recording, had to figure out why something didn't record, and had to do a couple of resets. Overall, not too bad, but far more problems than I would have had with TiVo in the same period of time.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

kstefanec said:


> So why is TIVO better again?


That is what I am trying to figure out. And that is why I don't want my HR20 to turn into a Tivo clone. I would rather it progress in another direction.

Like I said, if I wanted a Tivo I would have bought a Tivo.

-mk


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mikek said:


> The kind that either of the other DVRs I have used. Replaytv had a 30 second skip, auto commercial skip, manual commercial skip and a skip to whenever you want.
> 
> LG had a skip that is 1/30 of the program length. So it is 2 minutes for an hour recording.
> 
> -mk


HR20 has a 30 second "slip" and in the latest CE cycle a true 30 second skip is being added. So perhaps that will be what you are looking for.


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## kstefanec (May 13, 2007)

cover said:


> OK, there are a few things I like better about the HR20 than the TiVo. It is nice to see how much space I have left. And it is really nice that I could plug in an eSATA drive and have it just work. And it is nice that all the outputs are always active. But, given the choice, I'd still pick TiVo in a heartbeat.
> 
> *Usability *- TiVo's interface is simple and consistent. I never had to hunt for anything or think hard about what I was doing. After a month of daily use, I still have to look for things in the HR20 menus.
> 
> ...


What exactly do you have to hunt for in the menus? After using the HR20's interface for 10 minutes, I pretty much learned where everything is. I not trying to be a smart a$$, but I think the everything is fine where its at. Are you just so engrained in the TIVO mindset that things "just aren't where they should be?"

Why do you have to go into settings to set up a recording? I never do. What am I missing?

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I've never missed a recording, got a partial, or any of those problems. I would be upset if that happened but I do know from reading this forum that it has happened in the past. Hopefully, this is an issue resolved with the software updates.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

mikek said:


> A couple of examples: Skip to tick is practically worthless


Not if you live on the east coast and record programs on Sunday night, it isn't. Last week, the late football game on CBS ran 57 minutes long. Since I was watching the game, I was able to extend the stop time on both programs that were in my To Do list.

Without Skip to Tick, it would have been necessary to scan through nearly an hour of programming in order to get to the beginning of the two shows that I recorded. With Skip to tick, it was only necassary to rewind 3 minutes, after advancing to the 1 hour mark.

Other than the fact that it was nearly a full hour, last Sunday wasn't an exception, it was the rule. Any time that CBS airs a late game in NY, the entire Sunday evening schedule is shifted accordingly.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> HR20 has a 30 second "slip" and in the latest CE cycle a true 30 second skip is being added. So perhaps that will be what you are looking for.


yep, that is one of the things I am looking for. 30 second skip would be a great addition.

-mk


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Bill Broderick said:


> Without Skip to Tick, it would have been necessary to scan through nearly an hour of programming in order to get to the beginning of the two shows that I recorded. With Skip to tick, it was only necassary to rewind 3 minutes, after advancing to the 1 hour mark.


On replaytv you could just press 60 skip and it would skip 60 minutes.

On the LG you just press the right arrow and the cursor on the progress bar moves to where ever you want it.

-mk


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## Keith Huntington (Sep 22, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> HR20 has a 30 second "slip" and in the latest CE cycle a true 30 second skip is being added. So perhaps that will be what you are looking for.


No no no. The OP said he DIDN'T want any Tivo features, and the true 30s skip is a Tivo feature. (Thank goodness it looks like the SKIP vs SLIP can be toggled, so that the OP isn't forced to use a true 30s skip!)


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Keith Huntington said:


> No no no. The OP said he DIDN'T want any Tivo features, and the true 30s skip is a Tivo feature. (Thank goodness it looks like the SKIP vs SLIP can be toggled, so that the OP isn't forced to use a true 30s skip!)


LOL

I just want the good features from all the different DVRs, not just Tivo.

I thought the Tivo 30 skip was a hack.

-mk


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## Matt9876 (Oct 11, 2007)

I couldn't turn your HR20/21 into a TiVo even if I wanted to.

All I want to know can the new stand alone HD-TiVo send out the proper IR commands to run the H20/21 ?

Is anyone doing this successfully?

Matt

Edit: Found out it won't,no support for sat at all,"Must be the agreement with Directv",only uses cable cards. "Major Bummer!"


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## kstefanec (May 13, 2007)

Matt9876 said:


> I couldn't turn your HR20/21 into a TiVo even if I wanted to.
> 
> All I want to know can the HD-TiVo send out the proper IR commands to run the H20/21 ?
> 
> ...


HUH?!?


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## opelap (Nov 4, 2006)

Just give me an HD Ultimate TV and I would be happy.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Discussion of Cutting Edge features is limited to the Cutting Edge forum, please. 

:backtotop

The point is, that although I personally think TiVo did a lot of things wrong, they also did a lot of things right, and within the law there's nothing wrong with adding features to the HR20 that are similar to the ones TiVo did right.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> The point is, that although I personally think TiVo did a lot of things wrong, they also did a lot of things right, and within the law there's nothing wrong with adding features to the HR20 that are similar to the ones TiVo did right.


I agree, my point is that it seems that we focus on the Tivo and not other DVRs when trying to make improvements to the HR20.

-mk


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## Xaa (Nov 17, 2005)

Keith Huntington said:


> No no no. The OP said he DIDN'T want any Tivo features, and the true 30s skip is a Tivo feature. (Thank goodness it looks like the SKIP vs SLIP can be toggled, so that the OP isn't forced to use a true 30s skip!)


No it isn't. 30 second skip is a feature TiVo coded but then caved in to their partners and didn't implement. It was then discovered by hackers along with the method to temporarily enable it. The hackers were likely pointed in that direction by TiVo insiders because every other DVR had the 30 second skip. You must not have been around for that. It still sucks that if you want it to stick you have to hack the unit.

TiVo ALWAYS, since day one, caved for advertising partners at the expense of it's dvr customers. They left the heavy lifting for hackers to do so they could wash their hands of it. :nono2:


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## ToddinVA (Mar 5, 2006)

mikek said:


> What do you want next? An animated character that records shows that you never requested?
> 
> -mk


Damn right I do!


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## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

opelap said:


> Just give me an HD Ultimate TV and I would be happy.


that would be nice....especially now that i have
high speed internet(HSI)....when i had UTV all i could
get at the time was dial up....i can't remember...
could the UTV even be connected to HSI or was it
dial up only....


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

mikek said:


> I agree, my point is that it seems that we focus on the Tivo and not other DVRs when trying to make improvements to the HR20.
> 
> -mk


Mike, You see a lot of that here because from a pure numbers point of view, TiVo had the most subscribers. Things are changing.

Skip to anywhere would be a great feature addition .. The feature I would use more often is an instant skip-to-tick rather than a press & hold scenario that we currently have. TiVo got that one right and if DIRECTV's implementation were similarly easy, I'd have no problem with it .. as it stands, TiVo is the only other reference point that I have.

We like all good feature ideas. If you have ideas coming from the ReplayTV world, then pass them along. We have a thread set up just for HR20/HR21 feature ideas .. check it out: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93995

Now as for Automatic Commercial skip .. Isn't that part of the reason that ReplayTV is no longer around?  I wouldn't expect to see that feature added any time soon.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

mikek said:


> On replaytv you could just press 60 skip and it would skip 60 minutes.
> 
> On the LG you just press the right arrow and the cursor on the progress bar moves to where ever you want it.
> 
> -mk


My DVD Recorder allows me to do a variable skip, where I press a button and enter a number of minutes I want to skip ahead or back, and it skips ahead. My old VCR does the same thing (except it fast fowards the tape instead of an instantaneous skip).

Skip to Tick is OK (and better than just FF), but it would be a lot faster and more convenient to be able to skip 10 minutes or 73 minutes, or whatever time I want to do.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Upstream said:


> My DVD Recorder allows me to do a variable skip, where I press a button and enter a number of minutes I want to skip ahead or back, and it skips ahead. My old VCR does the same thing (except it fast fowards the tape instead of an instantaneous skip).
> 
> Skip to Tick is OK (and better than just FF), but it would be a lot faster and more convenient to be able to skip 10 minutes or 73 minutes, or whatever time I want to do.


Something like that would be great especially for programmble remotes. But it will be tough to get it because Tivo didn't have it.

-mk


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

mikek said:


> It seems like this community is very Tivo-centric. I know most users are former/current Tivo users.
> 
> It seems like the features that get added to the HR20s are because former Tivo users demand them.
> 
> ...


Er...TiVo has a true skip without autocorrect. The HR20 as yet does not have it, but it is planned for a future software release.

This is a TiVo feature, and you apparently approve of it being incorporated into the feature set of the HR20. Or am I missing something?


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

mikek said:


> Something like that would be great especially for programmble remotes. But it will be tough to get it because Tivo didn't have it.
> 
> -mk


I think a variable skip forward would be a nice feature as well. I think you're wrong that it will be tough to get since Tivo doesn't have it. It'll be tough to get since they need to get skip to tick working well first. Then they have a pile of other, more necessary fixes.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Thaedron said:


> I think a variable skip forward would be a nice feature as well. I think you're wrong that it will be tough to get since Tivo doesn't have it. It'll be tough to get since they need to get skip to tick working well first. Then they have a pile of other, more necessary fixes.


They should scrap skip to tick and implement the above system.

-mk


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

mikek said:


> I agree, my point is that it seems that we focus on the Tivo and not other DVRs when trying to make improvements to the HR20.
> 
> -mk


Not really. Most of the changes we talk about are new and different from Tivo. You are just focusing on the ones that are tivo-like (although a lot of those that get referenced from Tivo are used by other systems as well).

I have seen suggestions that mirror functionality of DVD players, other DVRs, even VCRs and even (shudder) the SA8300 (which I have and hate but like a few features of).

What is wrong with taking the best of the best, though? As well as the best of the worst as well as new ideas?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Upstream said:


> My DVD Recorder allows me to do a variable skip, where I press a button and enter a number of minutes I want to skip ahead or back, and it skips ahead. My old VCR does the same thing (except it fast fowards the tape instead of an instantaneous skip).
> 
> Skip to Tick is OK (and better than just FF), but it would be a lot faster and more convenient to be able to skip 10 minutes or 73 minutes, or whatever time I want to do.


What I would like is a hybrid.

If you set a bookmark, there is a menu that allows you to choose what bookmark you want to jump to (Menu > Bookmarks in the NR software). It lists them and you choose which one you want.

I would like to see the tickmarks in that list. That would be good enough for me.

But it wouldn't be bad to add a choice to type in a time there as well. It is a feature on my Sony DVD players that I like but more often, skip to tick is easier to use if you can get to them quickly (picking a time isn't exactly scientific).

The problem with the HR20/21 skip to tick is that it takes forever. With the stock remote, you have to press and hold. Then press and hold again if you want to get to the next tick, etc.

The idea of treating it like a bookmark means you can just pick the time from a list.


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## rapjrhb (Sep 26, 2007)

mikek said:


> If I wanted a Tivo I would have bought a Tivo. Stop trying to turn the HR20s/21s into Tivos.
> 
> What do you want next? An animated character that records shows that you never requested?
> 
> -mk


I don't think people are trying to turn your HR20s/21s into Tivos, just trying to implement their favorite features from experience with Tivos. Nobody is asking for really slow menus and severly limited HD content, are they?


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## mark_winn (Nov 3, 2005)

mikek said:


> That is what I am trying to figure out. And that is why I don't want my HR20 to turn into a Tivo clone. I would rather it progress in another direction.
> 
> Like I said, if I wanted a Tivo I would have bought a Tivo.
> 
> -mk


Only you can't get a TIVO for Directv and still get the new HD Content.


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## rahlquist (Jul 24, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> What I would like is a hybrid..


Me too,combine the remote with a Wiimote and hold a button and slide the controller to the right to slide through your program instead of predesposed skip lengths you could use your remote like a scroll bar controller.


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## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

anything but those *thumbs down* & *thumbs up* buttons


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## nth78 (Jan 16, 2007)

Please turn my HR20 into a Tivo (that can get all the HD Channels). I'll give you $200.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I am not sure how I missed this thread when it was first posted.. but

In December of 2009, when we start to see the "Decade In Review Shows".

TiVo will probably be in the Top 5 if not #1 of the most important technology inovations between 2000 and 2010.

And it should be.... 

TiVo was/is a fantastic product, and did a tremendous amout of things right...

But TiVo, Inc (the company)... did a lot of things wrong, which may lead to the fact they may not be around to accept that previously mentioned award.

They have been working and refining their product for almost 10 years now.... They have added some features... and some functionally... that flat out makes sense.

DirecTV is in their 2nd year of their DVR... and have learned... not just from the customers (and this forum)... but also by studing on what made TiVo.... TiVo.. 

Why are people so in love with the TiVo product? What did it do that was so magical. 

While a lot of TiVo's features are patented and can't be taken without payment... there is a lot in there that there is no Patent on.... Like the idea of having a main menu... Like 30s SKIP (I still prefer SLIP).

You are NOT going to see a clone of TiVo on the DVR+ platform... 
As there are still a lot of things in the TiVo software.... it doesn't do so well.

But just because they didn't "before" DVR+... doesn't make it cloaning or trying to be like TiVo...

The DVR+ has done some things that TiVo hasn't done yet...
Like Group Play (I remember people asking for that back in 2001)...
Native On Screen Caller-ID
Disk space monitor
Group Delete / Mark and Delete...
Single Tuner OverLaps

And others....


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## tommy_mc (Oct 10, 2007)

keithlm said:


> Not sure why the OP is complaining. Getting more features is generally ALWAYS going to be better; there is nothing wrong with features that Tivo has. (I'm not sure about the "tick" stuff.... it's not something I use.)
> 
> Personally I would like to see the "List" view instead of the "grid" view.
> 
> (And don't tell me about the pseudo method that can be used to kind of provide the same functionality. It's too slow and as such is not useful... it requires a button press and pause for every channel change... NOT acceptable.)


Hear hear! "List" view is my #1 wish as well. It's a much more efficient way at looking at what's on.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

gcisko said:


> Exactly what kind of skip are you looking for?


It needs to be moved off the "press and hold" button that it is now on as does the slow motion function. The press and hold implementation greatly decreases the usability of these features.


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## breevesdc (Aug 14, 2007)

As the owner of 2 ReplayTV units, an HR10-250 and an HR20-700, I can tell you that they all have their strengths and weaknesses. The TiVo interface is easy to use. But TiVo also lacked a lot of functionality that Replay had almost on day 1. For instance, MRV and Internet scheduling were there almost from the get go. It took TiVo years to add those features after Replay had them.

Here are some shortcomings of TiVo where Replay outperformed. And the only reason I list them here is in the hopes that D* doesn't take the same (IMHO) flawed approach that Tivo did in some parts of its interface:

Things I Liked Better about ReplayTV:

1) Menus should be circular (i.e.- if you're at the top of a menu list and hit the up button, it should put you at the bottom of the menu list... not give you the BONG sound!. Replay's menus are circular.

2) If you reach the end of a show, you're at the end. That's it. No option other than to go back to your 'Now Playing' list. Replay allowed you to use the navigation buttons (jump back, rewind, etc.) and gave you the option to save or delete the show. The HR20 improves this function by at least allowing you to choose to delete the show if you want to. But it should also allow you to jump back and rewind if you want to (perhaps it does... I can't remember and I'm not at home to check).

3) Same thing applies when you stop a recording. Tivo only let's you go back to the 'Now Playing' list. Replay allowed you to choose to save the recorded segment or delete it. The HR20 does this as well.

4) ReplayTV allows you to jump anywhere you want to in a program. If it's a 2 hour show and you want to jump ahead 90 minutes, you simply press 9 - 0 - SKIP (the same button that you use for the 30-second skip normally). Tivo does not have this feature. The HR20 also does not have this feature (that I'm aware of).

5) The channel listings in Tivo and in the HR20 are problematic for sports watching. Tivo and HR20 list sports shows with the title "Bears @ Redskins". ReplayTV listed them as "NFL Football" with a description "Chicago Bears at Washington Redskins". If I'm an NFL fan and just want to record all NFL games (regardless of the teams that are playing), I have to know when the games are and what channels they are on (which is increasingly difficult at the end of the season with the Thursday night and Saturday games). You can't use the keyword search and search for Football because you get all of the other junk out there (like "Inside the NFL" 15 times, any sports news program, etc.). I have to say, this is the #1 most annoying thing about the D* DVRs (HR10 or HR20) for me.

If the channel listings were more like ReplayTVs, you could simply set a season pass for "NFL Football" for NBC, CBS, FOX, ESPN and be done with it. There is no way to set a Season Pass for NFL Football (or any other major sport for that matter) using the HR10 or HR20.

6) MRV. I know I mentioned it above. But we have not had MRV on non-hacked D* DVRs yet. ReplayTV was doing this in 2000. I think I read something about this feature coming for the HR20. But when?

7) Better grouping of shows. Replay allows you to create your own folders and move shows into that folder if you want. So for instance, if you've recorded a lot of movies and don't want them cluttering up your "Now Playing" list, you can move them into your own custom "Movies" folder. The HR10/HR20 only have system-controlled folders (which is admittedly better than what we had before 6.3... but still).

There are more, but I'll stop here.

Things I Like About the HR10 and HR20 over ReplayTV:

1) HD. That pretty much sealed the deal for me in phasing out my Replays.

2) DVR integration directly into the digital receiver. The HR10/HR20 are integrated. The ReplayTV needs to use IR blasters or a serial port to control a separate set top box. We all know IR blasters are somewhat unreliable and the serial control only works with older D* receivers.

Don't get me wrong, I like my HR10 (despite its sluggishness) and my HR20 (despite its bugs in its infancy). But my hope is that the HR20 in the end will be a mixture of the features available from both Tivo and ReplayTV. They both are/were excellent DVRs. It's a shame that SonicBlue got sued by the networks over the commercial skip and internet video sharing features of their units. I think that more than anything is what ruined their DVR product. Well.... that and an almost non-existent marketing campaign.

Brian

PS- Earl... your Bears are going down Thursday night! ;-)


----------



## JBernardK (Aug 16, 2006)

But TiVo said:


> Earl,
> 
> Could you be more specific on what you think TiVo has done wrong and why you think they will go out of business?
> 
> ...


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

breevesdc said:


> PS- Earl... your Bears are going down Thursday night! ;-)


Does it really matter? Their season ended on Sunday, when they couldn't hold a 9 point lead with 7minutes left in the game.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

JBernardK said:


> Earl,
> 
> Could you be more specific on what you think TiVo has done wrong and why you think they will go out of business?
> 
> ...


Sure... I think they got very greedy with their licensing structure.
That ultimately led to the opportunity for DirecTV to decide to go on their own.

I think they have played hardball with a lot of other entities... and thus Dish Network, TimeWarner two very large players... have decided to continue with their own platforms.

I think they should have gotten out of the hardware aspects of the DVR platform, and focused soly on the software aspects...

Which then could have benefitted them with the COMCAST TiVo... to get get expectations on that project, which is nearly 2 years later then expected (they made original statements that it would be ready for everyone in 2006).

I think that their pricing model is through the roof... and the drop of a lifetime option as a standard option, but instead getting people to signup for a 3yr commitment to get the best price is wacked.

I think they continue to add more features that dilute their core product... their hook in's to NetFlix, Amazon, ect... instead of working more onto a standards base method... could lead to issues.

I think their TiVo2Go is outdated.

I think the idea that they couldn't forsee the issues with SDV on the Cable-Co's... and built that into their $800 (when initially released) TiVo Series 3 box... but now expect people to do the dongle.

I think that releasing the TiVo Series 3 at that $800 price point, and honestly the bit on the "rushing it out" bug, because DirecTV got their HR20 out on the market.... and as much as people compalin that the HR20 wasn't ready to go... T3 also wasn't ready to go, as shown by the very quick software updates after it's release.

I think their management has made some statments purely to drive the stock, without a solid basis for fact on those... like hinting that there maybe something to the DirecTV / TiVo relationship re-kindling.

I personally think, that the "open state" of the system... is both a positive and a negative to the unit.

So yes... I think TiVo, Inc... has done many things wrong..
And why I think they will either be out of business, or acquired by someone by the end of the decade.

They are losing customers hand and foot.
And if it wasn't for the 2.5 million customer base they have from DirecTV... I don't even think they would be here today.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Wow, TiVo has a patent on the Main Menu? Did not know that and it explains a lot about the way the HR2x is set up.

Personally, the more I use the HR20, them more things i find I like. The speed at which you can do most things beats TiVo into the ground. It seems like DirecTV has gotten some of the wonky guide info causing missed recordings under control.

However, the one thing I truly wish was like TiVo is the ability to have more than 50 Series Links set up at one time. This arbitrary restriction is crazy and really hampers my use and enjoyment of the thing as I have to now delete one item on my list for each thing I set up. Instead of having The Closer and Saving Grace Seires links sitting there waiting for new episodes, I just barely caught that they were coming on yesterday and set them up when I got home. (at the expense of 2 other things in the list for now.)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Lee L said:


> Wow, TiVo has a patent on the Main Menu? Did not know that and it explains a lot about the way the HR2x is set up.


Where was it said that TiVo had a patent on the Main Menu?
HR20 went with a context sensitive menu, as the primary menu...
And after a year, they are now switching that to a single conistant menu as the main menu... with a 2nd menu option tha tis context sensitive.


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## pdicamillo (Sep 28, 2007)

The biggest thing I miss from Tivo is the slowest fast forward speed, 3X I think, which still has *continuous* motion. Very useful for certain kinds of scanning. My brain hurts when I try to use the stop-motion fast forward the same way.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> TiVo was/is a fantastic product, and did a tremendous amout of things right...
> 
> But TiVo, Inc (the company)... did a lot of things wrong, which may lead to the fact they may not be around to accept that previously mentioned award.


Totally agree on both points. 
I don't see how they can survive with the massive DirecTv exodus.


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## BkwSoft (Oct 18, 2007)

breevesdc said:


> As the owner of 2 ReplayTV units, an HR10-250 and an HR20-700, I can tell you that they all have their strengths and weaknesses. The TiVo interface is easy to use. But TiVo also lacked a lot of functionality that Replay had almost on day 1. For instance, MRV and Internet scheduling were there almost from the get go. It took TiVo years to add those features after Replay had them.
> 
> Here are some shortcomings of TiVo where Replay outperformed. And the only reason I list them here is in the hopes that D* doesn't take the same (IMHO) flawed approach that Tivo did in some parts of its interface:
> 
> ...


+1.

I'm glad I'm not the only one here that thinks many people were brainwashed into thinking that Tivo was the end-all of DVRs.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where was it said that TiVo had a patent on the Main Menu?
> HR20 went with a context sensitive menu, as the primary menu...
> And after a year, they are now switching that to a single conistant menu as the main menu... with a 2nd menu option tha tis context sensitive.


I thought you did, but somehow my mind skipped over where you wrote "no" 

So, why not have a mian menu like the TiVo, it would make things much easier than the current setup with the HR20 where you get a tiny thing on the side of your screen and only half the options you really need to do anything. That way, we could go right to what we wnted as opposed to having to navigate various levels.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Lee L said:


> I thought you did, but somehow my mind skipped over where you wrote "no"
> 
> So, why not have a mian menu like the TiVo, it would make things much easier than the current setup with the HR20 where you get a tiny thing on the side of your screen and only half the options you really need to do anything. That way, we could go right to what we wnted as opposed to having to navigate various levels.


You might want to take a look in the CE forum, to see some of the changes they are making to the menu structure.

They are not going FULL SCREEN... but even on TiVo's full screen... it is not like there here 20 options on one screen..


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## breevesdc (Aug 14, 2007)

BkwSoft said:


> +1.
> 
> I'm glad I'm not the only one here that thinks many people were brainwashed into thinking that Tivo was the end-all of DVRs.


Not so much brainwashed... Tivo is an excellent product. But it seems to be the standard that everyone strives for. And I think the standard can be set a little higher.

Brian


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## breevesdc (Aug 14, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Does it really matter? Their season ended on Sunday, when they couldn't hold a 9 point lead with 7minutes left in the game.


Ha! You know the funny thing about this comment... I wasn't sure if you were talking about my team or your team. That has been the story of my year as a Skins fan. Dominate the other team and lose in the 2nd half.

Brian

PS- I'll be at the game. It'll be a tough one with 1 day of practice.


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## Splendor (Apr 17, 2007)

keithlm said:


> Not sure why the OP is complaining. Getting more features is generally ALWAYS going to be better; there is nothing wrong with features that Tivo has. (I'm not sure about the "tick" stuff.... it's not something I use.)
> 
> Personally I would like to see the "List" view instead of the "grid" view.
> 
> (And don't tell me about the pseudo method that can be used to kind of provide the same functionality. It's too slow and as such is not useful... it requires a button press and pause for every channel change... NOT acceptable.)


+100000


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## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

kstefanec said:


> What exactly do you have to hunt for in the menus? After using the HR20's interface for 10 minutes, I pretty much learned where everything is. I not trying to be a smart a$$, but I think the everything is fine where its at. Are you just so engrained in the TIVO mindset that things "just aren't where they should be?"
> 
> Why do you have to go into settings to set up a recording? I never do. What am I missing?
> 
> I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I've never missed a recording, got a partial, or any of those problems. I would be upset if that happened but I do know from reading this forum that it has happened in the past. Hopefully, this is an issue resolved with the software updates.


90% of what I do with the HR20 is fine, but things I do infrequently I still have to look for. One recent example was looking for the internal temperature. I'm reasonably bright, but it took me a minute to figure out/remember that I have to click for more/additional info besides what is initially shown.

Unless there is a shortcut that I'm missing, it is much too difficult to switch to a different favorites list.

And again, I don't think recordings/Series link should be lumped under "settings" where I would expect to go to align my dish.

Much of this is admittedly nit-picking, but it just makes my life that little bit more difficult. And even more so when my wife can't figure out how to do things. 

I don't think TiVo had everything 100% right and I'm not trying to say everything should be absolutely the same. But I think a number of things made better sense in the TiVo interface.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

cover said:


> Much of this is admittedly nit-picking, but it just makes my life that little bit more difficult. And even more so when my wife can't figure out how to do things.


I think your wife (and you) will be very happy with some planned upcoming changes. Things will be much easier to find. You're more than welcome to check out the CE forum for more information.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Just adding my 2 Cents I agree totaly with this post. I don't want a Tivo and I don't want my HR20 to become a Tivo. If I did want a Tivo I would not have gone with Directv, I would have gotten cable. I just wish the Tivo people would stop doing the comparisons and just get a Tivo 3 and cable so they can be happy and live there lives in peace.


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## rahlquist (Jul 24, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sure... I think they got very greedy with their licensing structure.


Earl I couldnt agree more with almost eveyrthing you said. Here the choices are DirecTV or Comcast. Thats not much of a choice in my book because we are outside digital cable range (and broadband) and the service I have experienced in GA is garbage. But I would like to add one more possible reason DirecTV dropped Tivo. CableCards. I am willing to bet eventually someone will start to make noise that in order to level the playing field the satellite providers need to take up a similar practice. I like to think that someone at DirecTV saw this coming and wanted this partnership over to slow any progress in this direction.

I think also the openness of the Tivo scared them.

I loved my DirecTivo's, I still have one in use, but I am finding I am content with the HR 20. Hopefully there are still some evoloutionary leaps for the next generation that will be made like the esata ports, builtin wifi (hey if the Wii can do it....), dual pause buffers etc. Unfortunately like a lot of foundations though I think the Tivo foundation will crumble quickly with time...


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

rahlquist said:


> Earl I couldnt agree more with almost eveyrthing you said. Here the choices are DirecTV or Comcast. Thats not much of a choice in my book because we are outside digital cable range (and broadband) and the service I have experienced in GA is garbage. But I would like to add one more possible reason DirecTV dropped Tivo. CableCards. I am willing to bet eventually someone will start to make noise that in order to level the playing field the satellite providers need to take up a similar practice. I like to think that someone at DirecTV saw this coming and wanted this partnership over to slow any progress in this direction.


You mean just attach a dish to your TV set and away you go? Cable and OTA are more similar than different. TV's have had cable compatibility for years. The cable card is no more than a security device. Fairly inexpensive and compact.

Satellite dishes on the other hand need to be driven by satellite receivers--they are not simply oddly shaped passive devices like rooftop antennas. If you put the necessary hardware into a TV set, you will have to charge everyone more for that set just for the benefit a few.

Not going to happen.


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## brianp6621 (Jun 13, 2007)

breevesdc said:


> Things I Liked Better about ReplayTV:
> 
> 2) If you reach the end of a show, you're at the end. That's it. No option other than to go back to your 'Now Playing' list. Replay allowed you to use the navigation buttons (jump back, rewind, etc.) and gave you the option to save or delete the show. The HR20 improves this function by at least allowing you to choose to delete the show if you want to. But it should also allow you to jump back and rewind if you want to (perhaps it does... I can't remember and I'm not at home to check).


I'm confused about this one. 
I get that Replay allowed you move around from the end of a program, but TiVo at least allowed you to either delete or go back to the Main menu, just like the HR20.


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## Podkayne (Nov 1, 2007)

Turn my *&!?^% HR20 in to an HD Tivo and you will have an entire family of very happy people. My wife and daughters still rue the day I swapped out their beloved Tivo for this HR20. They honestly don't care AT ALL about HD TV...they just want their precious Tivo interface back.

As for me, give me back my dual live buffers.

PLEASE

Thank you....


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## shelland (Jul 10, 2007)

I've had Tivo units for 5 years, and have to admit that I have no idea what 'skip to tick' is...

I'm sure there are other features I never discovered. (since I don't RTFM  )


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

ccr1958 said:


> anything but those *thumbs down* & *thumbs up* buttons


Why is this such an issue? If you don't like them, don't use them. Simple?

I for one would definitely like something like TiVo suggestions based on my preferences. I have seen many excellent shows that I most likely would never have had a chance to view. The great thing about such a feature is that you could turn it off if you don't find it useful.

Why is this a bad idea? Simply because you wouldn't use it, you want to deprive those who like it?

DLB and suggestions are the two TiVo features I miss most. I'd give away ten "VOD's" for either one of them.


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## -V- (Nov 30, 2007)

Seems like Mike wants to impede discovery and innovation.

To auto makers of the world, stop trying to make my cart like a Porsche!


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## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

ShiningBengal said:


> Why is this such an issue? If you don't like them, don't use them. Simple?
> 
> I for one would definitely like something like TiVo suggestions based on my preferences. I have seen many excellent shows that I most likely would never have had a chance to view. The great thing about such a feature is that you could turn it off if you don't find it useful.
> 
> ...


mostly because of where they were located on the remote....
don't know how many times i hit those instead of changing
channels or volume....or having relatives spend the night that
were not familiar with tivo & noticing after they had gone that
there was thumbs up/down all over the channel banners....
& suggestions i really can't comment on as that was turned off
ASAP...


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

ccr1958 said:


> mostly because of where they were located on the remote....
> don't know how many times i hit those instead of changing
> channels or volume....or having relatives spend the night that
> were not familiar with tivo & noticing after they had gone that
> ...


Not to beat this to death, but if TiVo suggestions are turned off the thumbs up/down buttons have no effect. In any case, the only effect they possibly could have is on the suggestions that you have no use for.

If it were an issue with me, I'd buy a $10 universal remote (with no thumbs buttons obviously) for guests to use.

I don't let any of my guests near my HT without a guide (me).


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## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

hmmm...the thumbs didn't show up on the
channel banner even with suggestions turned off....
seems to me like they did....but i can't remember
for sure....sorry if i was wrong....but i still don't
like those buttons


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

I still have a Tivo and I haven't used thumbs up/thumbs down except for reboots in years.

Oh, and you actually use the remote that comes with our DVR? With all that equipment?


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## ccr1958 (Aug 29, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> I still have a Tivo and I haven't used thumbs up/thumbs down except for reboots in years.
> 
> Oh, and you actually use the remote that comes with our DVR? With all that equipment?


haha...yes i do....i have went the universal route a couple of
times & if it was just me using it that would be fine....but i
always ended up back to the originals....its not bad we have
a nice table between recliners that keep them all handy without
having to reach


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## jgriffin7 (Feb 16, 2007)

Just to add to something already said by many: Please, oh please, turn my HR20 into a TiVo!! I want a DVR that reliably performs the basic functions of a DVR.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Get cable and make them happy.



Podkayne said:


> Turn my *&!?^% HR20 in to an HD Tivo and you will have an entire family of very happy people. My wife and daughters still rue the day I swapped out their beloved Tivo for this HR20. They honestly don't care AT ALL about HD TV...they just want their precious Tivo interface back.
> 
> As for me, give me back my dual live buffers.
> 
> ...


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Does it really matter? Their season ended on Sunday, when they couldn't hold a 9 point lead with 7minutes left in the game.


Now, THAT was a thing of beauty.


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## Spoonie (Nov 14, 2006)

Yeah, Tivo Sucks. Or at least the version (series 2) that's on my 10-250 does. My ultimate TV (circa 1995) was better thought out. Maybe TIVO series 3 is better but things like not warning you before you switch channels to lose your buffer, or not being able to flag multiple shows for deletion at one time seems to be TIVO trademarks. And why the hell does TIVO force you to "live" TV if you are watching a recorded program while viewing the program guide? All I wanted to see was what was on TV. I didn't want to stop watching the recorded program! And the 10-250 doesn't even give you a little TV window (so you can still watch your show) while setting up recordings or any other setup for that matter. No sound, no nothing. I could go on for years but what's the use? The Ultimate TV that I had 7 years ago handled everything I mentioned above without an issue. Even now D* still haven’t offered a DVR better than the old Ultimate TV DVR. Sometimes I ask myself “who designs this crap”.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

ShiningBengal said:


> Why is this such an issue? If you don't like them, don't use them. Simple?
> 
> I for one would definitely like something like TiVo suggestions based on my preferences. I have seen many excellent shows that I most likely would never have had a chance to view. The great thing about such a feature is that you could turn it off if you don't find it useful.
> 
> ...


I know it's not the same but with remote booking you can do "suggestions" on the DirecTV web site. You can rate programs and movies and such and it will give you suggestions on other things you might like. And with remote booking you can schedule those to record. So if you're bored at work log into your account at DirecTV.com and setup to record the suggestions found there.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Spoonie said:


> And why the hell does TIVO force you to "live" TV if you are watching a recorded program while viewing the program guide? All I wanted to see was what was on TV.


And yet when you bring that up to a TiVotee, they can't understand why one would want to do such a thing. It's so much a part of their assimilation that they can't understand the convenience that the ability you mention affords other DVR users.

TiVo user for over 7 years and I now find I prefer using the HR20 because of the feature you mention, slip over skip because I like Sports, and I don't need the hand-holding aspects of TiVo.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Spoonie said:


> things like not warning you before you switch channels to lose your buffer


Please explain.

I can't imagine the system telling me I will lose my buffer every time I change a channel. That would be extremely annoying, so you must mean something else.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> (about Tivo List view) :welcome_s
> YES! YES! YES! absolutely YES!


I liked list view, but it was only really good for one thing, that was seeing hours into the future on a single channel. The HR20 does this also, just in the grid, push left until you highlight the channel name/number box. Now press info. There is the equivalent to the TiVo list view for this one channel.

After finding that out, I'm pretty much over TiVo list view.


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

-V- said:


> Seems like Mike wants to impede discovery and innovation.
> 
> To auto makers of the world, stop trying to make my cart like a Porsche!


No, my point is that this forum focuses on Tivo when there are a lot of better features on other DVRs that get ignored because they weren't on Tivo.

So it would be like trying to make my car like (xxx), but nobody wants cup holders because (xxx) never had cup holders.

-mk


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

kstefanec said:


> What exactly do you have to hunt for in the menus? After using the HR20's interface for 10 minutes, I pretty much learned where everything is. I not trying to be a smart a$$, but I think the everything is fine where its at. Are you just so engrained in the TIVO mindset that things "just aren't where they should be?"
> 
> Why do you have to go into settings to set up a recording? I never do. What am I missing?
> 
> I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I've never missed a recording, got a partial, or any of those problems. I would be upset if that happened but I do know from reading this forum that it has happened in the past. Hopefully, this is an issue resolved with the software updates.


+1,000,000


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## pnyberg (Oct 31, 2007)

Mike K,

I may be a new user here, but I am not a new user to DVRs or to DBS systems. I am a video engineer by trade in the corporate meetings and broadcast industries and I have seen great professional and consumer products and some wind sucking ones. The fact that people are passionate about wanting Tivo features on their DVRs is a testament to how well the system worked.

I like the HR2x DVRs because now I can get my locals in HD. But besides the fact that I need it to get them and the new expanded HD channels, I would have not updgraded to the HR21 (I wanted a HR20 actually). There are plenty of good features on the box, but it is a long way from being great. To me, it seems like it is at about 3 out of 5 for overall ratings. The difficulty is that a product like this was put out to market (I feel) a bit early because there is still a slew of software upgrades necessary before the box is fully functional (like USBs, what are they really for?). 

On the positive side, this forum, Earl and the many people who put their time and energy into supporting it and contributing to it have prompted D* to listen and develop features that enrich and improve the HR2xs via the CE and General releases. This I believe will enhance the experience for all, albeit it is a slow process sometimes.

Your comments about not wanting the HR2x to become a Tivo box seem a bit extreme to me. I had an Ultimate TV (UTV) before DirecTivo and there were several features on that box that I wish the Tivo unit *AND* the HR2x boxes had. Does this mean you think we are trying to turn the HR2x DVRs into a Microsoft product?

Bottom line is that we all want a DVR that works and works WELL. The frame of reference we all have is what we had before. I agree with the previous poster that many of the features mentioned in this thread are good features that enhance the user experience. If this is what is wanted, then I am all for it. I don't want another Tivo, I WANT SOMETHING BETTER. And if DirecTivo is mentioned again, so be it.

It seems that we have taken 2 technological steps back in the evolution of the DVR for every step forward. We just need to invert this ratio to get back on track.

Thanks for sparking up a good debate.


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## rahlquist (Jul 24, 2007)

ShiningBengal said:


> You mean just attach a dish to your TV set and away you go? Cable and OTA are more similar than different. TV's have had cable compatibility for years. The cable card is no more than a security device. Fairly inexpensive and compact.
> 
> Satellite dishes on the other hand need to be driven by satellite receivers--they are not simply oddly shaped passive devices like rooftop antennas. If you put the necessary hardware into a TV set, you will have to charge everyone more for that set just for the benefit a few.
> 
> Not going to happen.


 Oh I understand that and I know that fitting the circuitry needed to drive a dish into a pcmcia form factor for sake of argument may not be possible now but....

In the end joe average wont care how the video/audio stream makes to their entertainment system. All I am getting at is it would be nice (and a fantasy that will likely never come true) to be able to buy say a Tivo series 4 and have it be capable through simple add on modules to accept VOD from the internet, D*, Dish, Cable, Audio and have the tivo device be a real media center.

I know nobody (comcast D* Dish AT&T) wants this level of universal happening. It could be done, but they dont want it. Once enough of the unwashed masses wake up to that fact then a demand will go out for the device.


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## jim t (Nov 29, 2007)

mikek said:


> If I wanted a Tivo I would have bought a Tivo. Stop trying to turn the HR20s/21s into Tivos.
> 
> What do you want next? An animated character that records shows that you never requested?
> 
> -mk


Listen, Tivo was not the first to develop a DVR, they existed with cable companies and satellite companies first. So I am annoyed at the fact Tivo ever duped the courts into trademark complaints against several companies. It's clear they are not superior, to some maybe, but not to me. Tivo gambled on the lawsuits and got their way with some companies, but not with others. Tivo is fortunate they won any cases, and I am disgusted at that. So the heck with Tivo. I like my HR20 and could care less about Tivo, and how Tivo thinks about any other company.


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> I know it's not the same but with remote booking you can do "suggestions" on the DirecTV web site. You can rate programs and movies and such and it will give you suggestions on other things you might like. And with remote booking you can schedule those to record. So if you're bored at work log into your account at DirecTV.com and setup to record the suggestions found there.


I wasn't aware such a capability existed in directv.com. I've looked and can't find it. Where is it? Can you give me the URL?


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

jim t said:


> Listen, Tivo was not the first to develop a DVR, they existed with cable companies and satellite companies first. So I am annoyed at the fact Tivo ever duped the courts into trademark complaints against several companies. It's clear they are not superior, to some maybe, but not to me. Tivo gambled on the lawsuits and got their way with some companies, but not with others. Tivo is fortunate they won any cases, and I am disgusted at that. So the heck with Tivo. I like my HR20 and could care less about Tivo, and how Tivo thinks about any other company.


I don't think any cable company ever offered a DVR prior to TiVo. And the only integrated satellite DVR prior to the Phillips DSR6000 (DirecTiVo) was Dish's bad joke called "Dishplayer." I certainly hope you aren't claiming it was superior to TiVo.

Whatever you may think of TiVo, you seem to be running a little recklessly with your assertions.

TiVo didn't "dupe" the courts. They won their case on its merits. Period. If you believe otherwise, please tell us specifically what you mean by your assertion, and where the courts erred.

Of course none of the above has anything at all to do with TiVo's and DirecTV's current offerings, but you need to calm down about this. This isn't religion or politics. Save your passion for things that matter.

I'm happy for you that you have fallen in love your HR20. I promise I won't say anything bad about it.


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## Spoonie (Nov 14, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> Please explain.
> 
> I can't imagine the system telling me I will lose my buffer every time I change a channel. That would be extremely annoying, so you must mean something else.


What's more annoying is losing what you were watching (buffered) because your elbow accidentally hit the channel button on the remote.

But seriously; It would only warn you (not allow you to switch channels) if you were buffered for more than a few minutes. If you were watching live TV or even buffered by a minute or so, it would allow you to switch channels as normal. believe me when I tell you, this feature has saved my butt plenty of times.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

jim t said:


> Listen, Tivo was not the first to develop a DVR, they existed with cable companies and satellite companies first. So I am annoyed at the fact Tivo ever duped the courts into trademark complaints against several companies. It's clear they are not superior, to some maybe, but not to me. Tivo gambled on the lawsuits and got their way with some companies, but not with others. Tivo is fortunate they won any cases, and I am disgusted at that. So the heck with Tivo. I like my HR20 and could care less about Tivo, and how Tivo thinks about any other company.


No, the first DVR was ReplayTV. TiVo followed about two months later. TiVo predates ALL satellite and cable DVRs by a year if not two. And as pointed out, most of those were pretty lousy.


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## Spoonie (Nov 14, 2006)

ShiningBengal said:


> And the only integrated satellite DVR prior to the Phillips DSR6000 (DirecTiVo) was Dish's bad joke called "Dishplayer."


That's not true. Have you ever heard of "Ultimate TV"? The Ultimate TV utilized an RCA DVR that had dual-buffers and the whole SheBang. And that was from the last century.


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am not sure how I missed this thread when it was first posted.. but
> 
> In December of 2009, when we start to see the "Decade In Review Shows".
> 
> ...


Correct. No different than Sony's Betamax which did everything right except one or two strategic things (capacity, failure to license) which allowed it to be crushed by VHS, certainly one of the Top 5 Technical Innovations of The 1980's. So strikingly similar to Tivo it's scary.

My wife still asks me if we are going to "tape" something on the DVR tonight. My kids as me to "Tivo" a program for them.

In the end, it's the DVR that will be the technical product of the decade (along with the iPod and maybe GPS Navigation) and the name "Tivo" will eventually be forgotten. Ask anyone under the age of 25 what a Betamax is.










BJ


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

Spoonie said:


> That's not true. Have you ever heard of "Ultimate TV"? The Ultimate TV utilized an RCA DVR that had dual-buffers and the whole SheBang. And that was from the last century.


Ultimate TV was pretty sweet. It was really odd MS let that die on the vine. It had the picture in the corner during the guide and such. The only real downside was it had a lot of ads on the screen.

Still, despite predating the DirecTiVo, it comes a lot later than the original (analog) TiVos.


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## groovadelickun (Oct 31, 2007)

All I know is that whenever my wife uses the HR20 she curses it repeatly and leaves the room to go watch on the HDTivo


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## nth78 (Jan 16, 2007)

groovadelickun said:


> All I know is that whenever my wife uses the HR20 she curses it repeatly and leaves the room to go watch on the HDTivo


Same here except she goes to watch our SD Tivo


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

Spoonie said:


> That's not true. Have you ever heard of "Ultimate TV"? The Ultimate TV utilized an RCA DVR that had dual-buffers and the whole SheBang. And that was from the last century.


Yes. I heard of it. What is more, I evidently have a more accurate recollection of it than do you. Ultimate TV did not precede the DSR6000, although it did precede the dual tuner capabilities of the single tuner enabled DSR6000 by a few months. It was rushed to market specifically to steal TiVo's thunder with dual tuners, and was initially very bug-ridden. The bugs were "ultimately" squashed, and it became a worthy competitor to TiVo. But Microsoft abandoned it because it never achieved significant market share.

The non-integrated Philips HDR-212 came out a year or so prior to Ultimate TV.

RCA never produced a DVR of its own. Ultimate TV was a product of an RCA/Microsoft partnership. Microsoft produced the software, and marketed the product.

All of these were "from the last century"


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

flipptyfloppity said:


> Ultimate TV was pretty sweet. It was really odd MS let that die on the vine. It had the picture in the corner during the guide and such. The only real downside was it had a lot of ads on the screen.
> 
> Still, despite predating the DirecTiVo, it comes a lot later than the original (analog) TiVos.


Er...I don't think there ever was an analog DIGITAL recorder on the market. The original TiVo's were DIGITAL, not analog.

Another downside of Ultimate TV was the very well documented bugs the early models had. The bad PR ultimately killed Ultimate TV and it was withdrawn from the market as it was never commercially successful.


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## opelap (Nov 4, 2006)

ShiningBengal said:


> Er...I don't think there ever was an analog DIGITAL recorder on the market. The original TiVo's were DIGITAL, not analog.
> 
> Another downside of Ultimate TV was the very well documented bugs the early models had. The *bad PR ultimately killed Ultimate TV *and it was withdrawn from the market as it was never commercially successful.


Which is the sad part. I would go back to my UTV in a heartbeat if it did HD and would work with the new dishes. It was the perfect interface for me and my wife. She still laments over going to the HR20 every time it acts up.


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## BkwSoft (Oct 18, 2007)

breevesdc said:


> Not so much brainwashed... Tivo is an excellent product. But it seems to be the standard that everyone strives for. And I think the standard can be set a little higher.
> 
> Brian


Tivo was a good product that was excellently marketed. ReplayTV was an excellent product that was poorly marketed. If it wasn't for the lack of ATSC tuners and the fact that DIRECTV more or less dropped support of RS232 channel changing I would still be using my Replays.

In my eyes the only thing Tivo had over ReplayTV was the suggestions which I wouldn't want anyway.

The one thing ReplayTV had (and frankly still does) have over the others was MVR. It was elegantly simple, you simply drop them on the network and they worked. Period. There was no hassle of coping shows from one machine to the other, and if you had recording conflicts it would schedule a recording on a machine that was available.


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## DanM (Jan 13, 2003)

What I really dig about our SD DirecTivos is they never crash. They never cancel programs or delete shows mysteriously, and record the shows I expect them to record. They might be the most reliable electronic equipment I've had in years.

Make me another D* DVR that can do that. I'll take slower interface over reliability issues any day.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

ShiningBengal said:


> I don't think any cable company ever offered a DVR prior to TiVo. And the only integrated satellite DVR prior to the Phillips DSR6000 (DirecTiVo) was Dish's bad joke called "Dishplayer." I certainly hope you aren't claiming it was superior to TiVo.
> 
> Whatever you may think of TiVo, you seem to be running a little recklessly with your assertions.
> 
> ...


I had a Dishplayer fmor almost the begining and suffer through the many SW versions and issues, but I have to say that they did finally turn it into a good system toward the end (right after they started the UltimateTV project).

I agree TiVo is better and the HR20 is better in my opinion now that they seem to have the recording issues worked out (hopefully). However, the single feature that the DishPlayer and I think UltimateTV had that everyone wants is soft padding. It would automatically record an extra minute at the end and beginning of each show, unless ther ewas somethign before or after, then it would start on time. Seems so simple and so desirable, yet no one will implement it.


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## radamo (Nov 13, 2003)

shelland said:


> I admittedly haven't really learned many of the HR20 features yet, because it's not on our primary TV.
> 
> But there are only two features that I truly miss from Tivo:
> 1. dual-live-buffers (which I honestly probably use even more than 'record')
> ...


Boy, you are not kidding... The dual live buffers used to get a real workout at my house.... That is the number one feature I miss!!!
RA


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## msmith (Apr 23, 2002)

Vegas said:


> YES, please, I really miss Tivo's suggestions.


+1


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## Spoonie (Nov 14, 2006)

opelap said:


> Which is the sad part. I would go back to my UTV in a heartbeat if it did HD and would work with the new dishes. It was the perfect interface for me and my wife. She still laments over going to the HR20 every time it acts up.


Same here. If UTV was HD I'd be in heaven.


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## Tulsa1 (Oct 15, 2003)

boltjames said:


> BJ


Hey, I had one of these (showing age )


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

DanM said:


> What I really dig about our SD DirecTivos is they never crash. They never cancel programs or delete shows mysteriously, and record the shows I expect them to record. They might be the most reliable electronic equipment I've had in years.
> 
> Make me another D* DVR that can do that. I'll take slower interface over reliability issues any day.


+1

The TiVo vs. HR20/1 debate is kind of moot for me, I just want an operational HD DVR instead of a problematic HD DVR/media player/DOD/+ what ever else is next. KISS is an engineering mantra I believe in, so fix the HD DVR part and leave the other capabilities alone for now if they are contributing to the reliability of the system.


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

radamo said:


> Boy, you are not kidding... The dual live buffers used to get a real workout at my house.... That is the number one feature I miss!!!
> RA


Once you spend a week without DLB, you realize that it wasn't that critical to the viewing experience, and all the new features in the HR20/1 far outweigh the one that is missing. That's what I went through at least. Missed it for a week, started to enjoy all the other new features, realized I wasn't worse off at all.

BJ


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## rapjrhb (Sep 26, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Once you spend a week without DLB, you realize that it wasn't that critical to the viewing experience, and all the new features in the HR20/1 far outweigh the one that is missing. That's what I went through at least. Missed it for a week, started to enjoy all the other new features, realized I wasn't worse off at all.
> 
> BJ


It's not the only feature that is missing - just my (and many people's) favorite!


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## coacho (Aug 21, 2007)

boltjames: you type in absolutes. To the contrary, I had the HR20 for about a month and had to reinstall my HR10. Now my HR20 is a nice compliment to my HR10 but not a replacement.


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

coacho said:


> boltjames: you type in absolutes. To the contrary, I had the HR20 for about a month and had to reinstall my HR10. Now my HR20 is a nice compliment to my HR10 but not a replacement.


I realize that a nice UI is important to some, but the primary role of a DVR is not to amaze and astonish power users with customizable menus and functions. The primary role of a DVR is to display a gorgeous MPEG4 HD picture and record programs reliably for millions of subscribers.

If your HR20 did not succeed in these two areas, you need to get a replacement HR20 from D* as yours is defective.

If you feel that the Tivo UI is so much to your liking that you are going to forgo dozens of incremental HD channels, MPEG4 picture quality, native mode picture quality, and constant updates from the manufacturer then your loyalty to Tivo clouds your judgement to a point where your opinion is skewed.

There are many people who prefer a horse to a car for daily transportation. That choice is completely within their right, of course, but it doesn't mean that their decision is correct.

BJ


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

rapjrhb said:


> It's not the only feature that is missing - just my (and many people's) favorite!


I understand completely and am not trying to judge. Just pointing out that, like everything in life, a DVR is a series of wins and losses. And that, in my opinion, the loss of something like the dual 30 minute buffers is offset by leaps and bounds by things that were added such as a single 90 minute buffer, MPEG4 decoding, native mode, one-touch-recording, much faster menu's, the 'back' button, the softkeys, the deep 'previous channels' menu, and on and on.

You list all the features in the HR20 and line it up against a list of all the features of the HR10 and it's not even close. It's like 3:1 in favor of the HR20. You can be upset at the loss of one key feature, but you cannot condemn the product as a whole in light of all the other great features that were added.

BJ


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## rapjrhb (Sep 26, 2007)

boltjames said:


> I understand completely and am not trying to judge. Just pointing out that, like everything in life, a DVR is a series of wins and losses. And that, in my opinion, the loss of something like the dual 30 minute buffers is offset by leaps and bounds by things that were added such as a single 90 minute buffer, MPEG4 decoding, native mode, one-touch-recording, much faster menu's, the 'back' button, the softkeys, the deep 'previous channels' menu, and on and on.
> 
> You list all the features in the HR20 and line it up against a list of all the features of the HR10 and it's not even close. It's like 3:1 in favor of the HR20. You can be upset at the loss of one key feature, but you cannot condemn the product as a whole in light of all the other great features that were added.
> 
> BJ


I haven't condemned anything. In fact, I choose to use an HR20 because of the HD content - despite not having some features that I want. My post was simply a reaction to you diminishing the importance of DLBs. You may not care about it but many people in this forum do.


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## ub1934 (Dec 30, 2005)

breevesdc said:


> As the owner of 2 ReplayTV units, an HR10-250 and an HR20-700, I can tell you that they all have their strengths and weaknesses. The TiVo interface is easy to use. But TiVo also lacked a lot of functionality that Replay had almost on day 1. For instance, MRV and Internet scheduling were there almost from the get go. It took TiVo years to add those features after Replay had them.
> 
> Here are some shortcomings of TiVo where Replay outperformed. And the only reason I list them here is in the hopes that D* doesn't take the same (IMHO) flawed approach that Tivo did in some parts of its interface:
> 
> ...


I will second every thing you posted about Replay , used it with my BUD and then Directv and would have still been useing it if it had Dolby SS . When Tivo came out for Directv i made the move because of the dual tuners (not yet active ) and the DLB +DD 5.1 Wish the HR**-*** would add some of the good from both of them .:grin:


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## MercurialIN (Jul 17, 2006)

As someone who loved their two stand alone TiVo's I do miss a few of their features, I'm one who actually loved the TiVo suggestions feature and don't understand why those who didn't like it didn't simply turn it off. I found it very useful to point out movies I might have otherwise missed. I enjoyed finding the recordings it would pick for me as it truly learned my viewing preferences very quickly, yes I did use the thumbs/up/down feature.

I also miss DLB and being able to set up auto records that actually work. And TiVo rarely missed any recordings or needed a reset. That said, as someone who thought nothing could compete with TiVo I have to say, I was wrong. I have really come to like the HR 20-700 and it has features my TiVo never dreamed of. Does the HR 20 have some flaws, sure, but so did TiVo. Nothing's perfect. But count me among those who are glad Directv came up with the HR 20. It's obvious that Directv cares about its customers too as it keeps working to improve the HR 20.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

mikek said:


> They should scrap skip to tick and implement the above system.
> 
> -mk


I like skip to tick. I wish I did not have to hold the button down forever to make it work.

Once I am closer to 100 years old, I will probably like the geriatric press and hold.

- Craig


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

ShiningBengal said:


> Er...I don't think there ever was an analog DIGITAL recorder on the market. The original TiVo's were DIGITAL, not analog.
> 
> Another downside of Ultimate TV was the very well documented bugs the early models had. The bad PR ultimately killed Ultimate TV and it was withdrawn from the market as it was never commercially successful.


The original TiVos were analog because they only received analog TV. They digitized it and compressed it on record and decompressed it on playback. They received no digital video or audio whatsoever. The DirecTiVo was the first TiVo to receive digital signals.

That's why they are called analog TiVos.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

They're called _DVRs_ for _Digital_ Video Recorders, flipptyfloppity. I've never heard/seen anyone refer to them as _AVRs_ for _Analog_ Video Recorders.


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## DanM (Jan 13, 2003)

His point is still correct, the original Tivos did not record a digital signal, even when recording Digital Cable channels. Everything had to go through an A/D converter (and back, to view.)


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

flipptyfloppity said:


> The original TiVos were analog because they only received analog TV. They digitized it and compressed it on record and decompressed it on playback. They received no digital video or audio whatsoever. The DirecTiVo was the first TiVo to receive digital signals.
> 
> That's why they are called analog TiVos.


That may be why _you_ call them analog TiVo's, but I have never heard anyone else refer to them that way.

You stated that they "received" analog TV. They did nothing of the kind. They received no digital signals, just as they received no analog signals. _They were not receivers, digital or analog._ They were, as the name implies, Digital Video Recorders because they _recorded_ digital information.

Digital broadcasts must be converted to analog to see them. Would you call such broadcasts "analog?"

If you choose to call them analog receivers because they digitized analog audio and video so that they could be digitally recorded, you are being somewhat creative in your use of the term "analog." If a VCR converted digital signals to analog before recording, would you call them Digital Video Recorders?

Again, they weren't receivers. They were recorders. They had no tuners.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

bidger said:


> They're called _DVRs_ for _Digital_ Video Recorders, flipptyfloppity. I've never heard/seen anyone refer to them as _AVRs_ for _Analog_ Video Recorders.


Not sure if AVR would be a correct term for anything... but who heard of PATA drives before SATA drives came out.


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## DanM (Jan 13, 2003)

What a silly semantics argument.

Yes, digital broadcasts converted to analog are called analog broadcasts.

Analog Tivos are receivers, they have analog tuners in them specifically for that purpose. They receive the analog signal, and convert them to MPEG format for storage on the hard drive, in digital form. THAT's where the D in DVR comes in.

Incidentally, this is why the earlier Tivos could only record one show- they only had one tuner in them (and it was analog.)


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## ShiningBengal (Jan 24, 2003)

DanM said:


> What a silly semantics argument.
> 
> Yes, digital broadcasts converted to analog are called analog broadcasts.
> 
> Analog Tivos are receivers, they have analog tuners in them specifically for that purpose. They receive the analog signal, and convert them to MPEG format for storage on the hard drive, in digital form. THAT's where the D in DVR comes in.


Digital broadcasts are really analog????? "Analog" TiVo's have tuners in them? That is false. It is not merely semantics.

There were no tuners of any kind in the original TiVo's. They did not receive analog broadcasts. They depended on external tuners, be they satellite (which of course were receiving digital signals) or cable, or off the air tuners to receive broadcasts.

Your argument is ridiculous.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 21, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> Not sure if AVR would be a correct term for anything... but who heard of PATA drives before SATA drives came out.


People that had MFM hard disk drives.


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## DanM (Jan 13, 2003)

ShiningBengal said:


> Digital broadcasts are really analog????? "Analog" TiVo's have tuners in them? That is false. It is not merely semantics.
> 
> There were no tuners of any kind in the original TiVo's. They did not receive analog broadcasts. They depended on external tuners, be they satellite (which of course were receiving digital signals) or cable, or off the air tuners to receive broadcasts.
> 
> Your argument is ridiculous.


From the wiki entry (emphasis mine):


> All standalone TiVo systems have coax/RF-in and an *internal cable-ready tuner*, as well as analog video input-composite/RCA and S-Video-for use with an external cable box or satellite receiver. The TiVo unit can use a serial cable or IR blasters to control the external receiver. They have coax/RF, composite/RCA, and S-Video output, and the DVD systems also have component out.


And from the info on the System 2 Tivo's (emphasis mine):


> The Series2 standalones can only *tune analog signals*, so to comply with FCC rules on analog TV phaseout, models that record from over-the-air channels are no longer sold. The dual tuner (DT) models and the TCD542 (a revision of the TCD540) will only record from cable and satellite sources.


It doesn't seem like you understand what a Tivo is and what it does.


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## qprhooligan (Dec 5, 2007)

shelland said:


> But there are only two features that I truly miss from Tivo:
> 1. dual-live-buffers (which I honestly probably use even more than 'record')
> 2. xxx


You mean the HR20-21 don't have dual line buffers? I'll miss that feature.


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