# DirecTV with a Generator



## llupin (Sep 10, 2006)

For those of you trying to connect your TV and DirecTV receivers to a generator, remember that you need to plug the SWM power source in as well. I learned this during Isaac last month (good thing I had some really long extension cords). Also, make sure to use surge protectors and not plug any electronic components directly into a generator.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

+1

I did not have SWM when IKE paid us a visit here but I did have a generator and 4, 100 foot outdoor extension cords to run to the TVs and computers in the house.


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## onan38 (Jul 17, 2008)

I installed a transfer switch after the ice storm several years ago with a plug on back of the house,just plug hit 10 switches on the transfer box powers my whole house on a 5500 watt generator. Be sure to also ground the generator it should have a place to put a ground wire.


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## phran (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks for the tip. I used a genny during Irene but I've had SWM installed since then. The lights flickered an hour ago, so it won't be long now.....


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

A good UPS is a life saver, it will keep the system up and running while you feed and water the gen set. We had to rely on a 5500 watt unit for two weeks after Wilma.


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## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

Do not forget to ground the generator. I use a car jumper cable to connect the frame of the generator to a ground rod.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

They say not to ground your genny to the house ground, I never understood that very well. I have my genny grounded to a ground rod that is driven in right next to my copper water main, But, even then, this ground rod is only 4 feet long, a ground rod is supposed to be 8 feet long.

Anyway, I once ran my DirecTV setup (and the rest of the house) for 6 weeks on a 5500 watt genny after hurricane Wilma. Ran great, although at the rate of 10 gallons of gas a day.


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## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

JeffBowser said:


> They say not to ground your genny to the house ground, I never understood that very well. I have my genny grounded to a ground rod that is driven in right next to my copper water main, But, even then, this ground rod is only 4 feet long, a ground rod is supposed to be 8 feet long.
> 
> Anyway, I once ran my DirecTV setup (and the rest of the house) for 6 weeks on a 5500 watt genny after hurricane Wilma. Ran great, although at the rate of 10 gallons of gas a day.


I think the reason you should not ground the generator to the house ground is to protect line workers who are trying to restore power. I, too, have a separate ground rod just for my generator, but it is a regulation 8 foot copper clad ground rod that I drove into the ground near where I park the generator. When the generator is in use, I use a car jumper cable to connect the generator to the ground rod.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I've been thinking about bonding two 5 foot rods together - give me 8 feet of subsurface contact, and a foot above for cable clamps. This does not meet the letter of the code, but should accomplish the same thing. I had trouble enough driving the 4 foot rod, let alone drive an 8 footer.



fleckrj said:


> I think the reason you should not ground the generator to the house ground is to protect line workers who are trying to restore power. I, too, have a separate ground rod just for my generator, but it is a regulation 8 foot copper clad ground rod that I drove into the ground near where I park the generator. When the generator is in use, I use a car jumper cable to connect the generator to the ground rod.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

JeffBowser said:


> This does not meet the letter of the code, but should accomplish the same thing.


Whether it creates a battery or some other electrolysis issue, two rods within 6' of each other are not allowed by codes in several jurisdictions. In most of these cases, two 8' rods spaced more than 6' apart are required.

Do a web search for "two ground rods".


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## Combat Medic (Jul 27, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> I've been thinking about bonding two 5 foot rods together - give me 8 feet of subsurface contact, and a foot above for cable clamps. This does not meet the letter of the code, but should accomplish the same thing. I had trouble enough driving the 4 foot rod, let alone drive an 8 footer.


The trick to driving the grounding rods is that commercial hammer drills have an adapter that will let the hammer drill drive the ground rod.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Right. Simple. If only I knew someone with the tools. :lol:



Combat Medic said:


> The trick to driving the grounding rods is that commercial hammer drills have an adapter that will let the hammer drill drive the ground rod.


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## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

I managed to drive an 8 foot rod with a sledge hammer. The first two feet were the hardest, because after each hit, I had to stop the rod from vibrating. I got it in without breaking any hands, so all is good.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

Here is what you need for the ground rod:










Once the post driver bottoms out on the ground the last foot is easy with a sledgehammer

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/yardgard-fence-post-driver-901147a.html#.UJBW-O-M58F


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

Sharing a ground rod b/w a generator and your home's electric supply won't affect a utility worker whatsoever. Connecting any other part of your generator into your breaker panel/house electrical service (without a proper transfer switch) COULD indeed injure a utility worker. IRC requires at least 8' of continuous earth contact for a proper low resistance grounding system. Isometrically bonding two (same exact composition metal) 5' ground rods (where would you even get them this size?) together could be done, but most people don't have the proper tools to do this. Using a single 8' ground rod (available at any hardware store) would make the most sense. Some areas of Canada (for example) require dual 8' ground rods approx. 10' apart for new service installs.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Had to deal with this after Hurricane Charley in '04. Ran a 100' extension cord up to the powered multiswitch in the attic of my 2-story home.

I had so many things plugged into my 5500W generator that when I had to shut it down to refuel I had to plug things back into the generator one or two at a time following a specific sequence as not to overload it all at once with the current spike associated with them starting up. Refrigerators, Freezer (these draw HUGE current spikes when they come on) and AC units first, then TVs, STBs, Multiswitch, Aquariums and lamps.

It only lasted a week but it felt a lot longer.


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## Combat Medic (Jul 27, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> Right. Simple. If only I knew someone with the tools. :lol:


Think of it as an excuse to buy a new tool.


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## Cyber36 (Mar 20, 2008)

The only way to harm a service worker is to NOT shut off the main switch at the top of the panel while your backfeeding..........


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

A transfer switch is the proper way. Live in a hurricane prone area like I do, and you quickly learn taking shortcuts with dryer outlets is not the way to go, as some of my neighbors stubbornly insist on doing.



Cyber36 said:


> The only way to harm a service worker is to NOT shut off the main switch at the top of the panel while your backfeeding..........


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

HarleyD said:


> Had to deal with this after Hurricane Charley in '04.  Ran a 100' extension cord up to the powered multiswitch in the attic of my 2-story home.
> 
> I had so many things plugged into my 5500W generator that when I had to shut it down to refuel I had to plug things back into the generator one or two at a time following a specific sequence as not to overload it all at once with the current spike associated with them starting up. Refrigerators, Freezer (these draw HUGE current spikes when they come on) and AC units first, then TVs, STBs, Multiswitch, Aquariums and lamps.
> 
> It only lasted a week but it felt a lot longer.


What you were seeing with the refrigerators and freezers when they first come on is "inrush current". Takes only seconds (or less) to subside. But you did the right thing. If you hadn't pulled all the plugs before starting, you would have probably tripped the generators breakers. Once you have everything running, there will still be instances of inrush current each time the compressors in the refrigerators, freezers and AC units come on but the genny will handle that.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> A transfer switch is the proper way. Live in a hurricane prone area like I do, and you quickly learn taking shortcuts with dryer outlets is not the way to go, as some of my neighbors stubbornly insist on doing.


If you're gonna use a dryer receptacle to power your CB panel, you should shut off ALL the breakers, especially the main breaker before plugging the genny into your dryer receptacle. Then put a piece of electrical tape over the main breaker just to make sure you don't turn it on by mistake. The tape won't stop the CB from operating, but it will serve as a warning to not turn it on with the genny operating. Then turn on only the breakers you need after you get the panel juiced up with the genny.

Rule of thumb, voltage times amperage = wattage. Don't exceed the capacity of the genny. Try to keep it running at 80% of it's rated wattage. All electrical devices should have nameplates on them that will tell you the amperage draw. Just add up all the amps of the devices you NEED and multiply that figure by 117 and you'll have a rough, but good, idea of how much wattage you're drawing from the genny.

All that said, I'm finally giving up and I'm gonna buy a big genny with the transfer switch. I've been considering one for a while and I see them priced at ~ $6,000. Little enough to put out for peace of mind.

Rich


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

My SWM power injector is in the basement, had to run a cord down there last winter for just that, when we lost power.

I am going to put in a whole house generator. The portable just doesn't get it when we loose power in the middle of the winter. Get it out, clean the pad, hook it up, then go out in the cold and sometimes dark and fill it with gas, every few hours.


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## Kevin F (May 9, 2010)

"loudo" said:


> My SWM power injector is in the basement, had to run a cord down there last winter for just that, when we lost power.
> 
> I am going to put in a whole house generator. The portable just doesn't get it when we loose power in the middle of the winter. Get it out, clean the pad, hook it up, then go out in the cold and sometimes dark and fill it with gas, every few hours.


I think you can get generators that run off your natural gas line these days.

Kevin


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Or even a buried or above ground tank if you don't have a gas line to your house. Very common in 'high-end' homes in FL.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

JeffBowser said:


> A transfer switch is the proper way. Live in a hurricane prone area like I do, and you quickly learn taking shortcuts with dryer outlets is not the way to go, as some of my neighbors stubbornly insist on doing.


Amazing :eek2:

Do they at least kill the main breaker to the panel (to isolate from the grid) when they do that?


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

dsw2112 said:


> Amazing :eek2:
> 
> Do they at least kill the main breaker to the panel (to isolate from the grid) when they do that?


We did have a whole home unit, when we lived in Florida. Got spoiled and hate the manual portable unit that we have now. Worse up here in Maine using a manual during a winter storm. We are out in the country here and would need to us LP. But I see that LP will give you more amperage than NG, for the same unit.

Today's whole home generators have automatic switch over from utility to generator power. If your utility power is down for say 10 seconds, it will turn the generator on. There are also switches called smart switches that allow you to use a smaller generator to power your home. It just will not allow to many high amperage units to run at the same time. Example: Your electric stove will not turn on if your clothes dryer is running. It will wait for the dryer to shut off, then you can use the stove.


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## onan38 (Jul 17, 2008)

Here is the transfer switch i'm running in my setup. Best money i have ever spent,I don't have my A.C unit connected but i have a natural gas furnace and water heater also my electric stove isn't hooked up to it either.Took me around 2 hours to hook up hardest part was running the wire from the plug i mounted on back of my house.I got lucky and had a vent screen for my crawl space right there cut out the top right corner for the flexible conduit.Found a extra hole that lead right up to the electrical box inside.The hardest part is to balance the load between the breakers on the transfer switch but the instructions helped alot.Had a friend that is a electrician double check my work he found no problems.When the power goes out all my neighbors head to my house.
I have a 1200sf ranch style house with every light on 2 plasma's w/t directv,fridge,furnace,ceiling fans going i pull 2500 watts it will shoot up to 3000 watts when fridge compressor or furnace motor runs i run a 5500 Generac generator.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?51410C


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> Amazing :eek2:
> 
> Do they at least kill the main breaker to the panel (to isolate from the grid) when they do that?


A decent electrician (you'd be amazed at how many aren't decent or even nearly competent) would do that first. It's pretty simple, really. Just a matter of shutting off ALL the breakers in the panel and unplugging the dryer and plugging in the generator. Then the genny backfeeds into the CB box. Then you start to turn on essential breakers. Never turn on the main breaker till you have juice to the house and have disconnected the genny and connected the dryer plug again. Then you can turn on the main breaker, with ALL the other breakers off. Then, turn the breakers on, one by one.

Last time I had a problem with a backfed system, it took me over 3 hours to locate the problem (I was following another electrician who couldn't get it to work), 5 minutes to fix it. What he had done was put a female connector on the feed wire from the genny and didn't wire it up correctly. When I arrived, I was getting wild voltage readings all over the place. The electrician I was following had worked for me and I was of the impression that the guy knew what he was doing and didn't follow him around as much as I should have. My fault for trusting another electrician, I don't even trust myself and have to verify everything I do several times. Anyhow, I wired the female connector correctly and the house lit up. 3 hours wasted. I should have checked all the work he did, I should have known better than to trust someone else. He could have burned the house down.

Just a warning: When you let your fingers do the walking thru the Yellow Pages for an electrician, you have no idea how competent he is. Better to get referrals from someone.

Rich


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rich said:


> Just a warning: When you let your fingers do the walking thru the Yellow Pages for an electrician, you have no idea how competent he is. Better to get referrals from someone.
> 
> Rich


And make sure they are licensed and insured.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> And make sure they are licensed and insured.


Forgot about that. If any contractor is gonna burn your house down, it will probably be an electrician. The trucks usually have the license number on them, but you really have to check the insurance. I don't plan to install the big genny, but I'm gonna be leaning over the electrician's shoulder all the way.

Rich


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Genny mfrs and/or retailers should have a list of approved electricians for your area. Ask.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Rich said:


> A decent electrician (you'd be amazed at how many aren't decent or even nearly competent) would do that first. It's pretty simple, really. Just a matter of shutting off ALL the breakers in the panel and unplugging the dryer and plugging in the generator. Then the genny backfeeds into the CB box. Then you start to turn on essential breakers. Never turn on the main breaker till you have juice to the house and have disconnected the genny and connected the dryer plug again. Then you can turn on the main breaker, with ALL the other breakers off. Then, turn the breakers on, one by one.


My grandfather was in the trades (a carpenter), and he would say "a good electrician is hard to find." :lol: I won't generalize, because I know there's some good ones out there; just haven't seen one myself 

Never thought about connecting a generator to the dryer outlet myself, but I know the extensive tag-out process we would perform in the Navy (to ensure engerized systems stay de-energized during maintenance.) I wouldn't trust a normal person to ensure that main breaker stays off during backfeed. Hell, they probably have enough on their mind if a storm is raging, power is off, kids are screaming, and they're trying to hookup/start a generator. Way too much potential for error there... Glad I don't work on the power grid :eek2:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Nick said:


> Genny mfrs and/or retailers should have a list of approved electricians for your area. Ask.


Yup, that's what I'll do or get a hold of my friend who has installed several of them and help him install it. Gonna take a while to get estimates and settle on what I want.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> My grandfather was in the trades (a carpenter), and he would say "a good electrician is hard to find." :lol: I won't generalize, because I know there's some good ones out there; just haven't seen one myself


He sounds like a wise man. And correct.



> Never thought about connecting a generator to the dryer outlet myself, but I know the extensive tag-out process we would perform in the Navy (to ensure engerized systems stay de-energized during maintenance.)


They finally got a lock-out tag-out system in place? We just did everything hot. Good for them. My ship participated in the first PM (preventive maintenance) system to be computerized. That was a huge undertaking.



> I wouldn't trust a normal person to ensure that main breaker stays off during backfeed. Hell, they probably have enough on their mind if a storm is raging, power is off, kids are screaming, and they're trying to hookup/start a generator. Way too much potential for error there... Glad I don't work on the power grid :eek2:


Agreed. You should see some of the DIY electrical work I've seen in houses. As for those guys who work on the grids, they're always at risk. But there's no other way to do what they have to do and they get deferments from regulating agencies so they can work hot.

I'm fine with anything up to 600V, and I'm qualified to make 4160V (the next big jump from 600V) splices, but I've had some terrifying experiences with 4160 and avoided that at all costs.

But, you're right, even just unplugging a dryer and plugging in a generator to backfeed the CB box can be an adventure for some folks.

Rich


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Rich said:


> All that said, I'm finally giving up and I'm gonna buy a big genny with the transfer switch. I've been considering one for a while and I see them priced at ~ $6,000. Little enough to put out for peace of mind.


Bought a 17KW Generac at HD during this past summer's Derecho. I has been used twice since then. Once for about 6 hours, and this time for 3 days. Cost was $3400 for the generator and another $600 or so for materials. Did the install myself. Really not that hard if you are comfortable working in panel boxes.

It was somewhat nice to hear it running Tuesday morning. The school system called at 5:30 to let us know we were on a 2-hour delay. So I looked out and knew we were going to lose power when I saw about 3 inches of wet snow and the radar showed this was just the beginning. When the school called back at 7:00 to cancel for the day, I heard the generator running.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> Bought a 17KW Generac at HD during this past summer's Derecho. I has been used twice since then. Once for about 6 hours, and this time for 3 days. Cost was $3400 for the generator and another $600 or so for materials. Did the install myself. Really not that hard if you are comfortable working in panel boxes.


Did you get an estimate of what it would cost to have it installed?

Rich


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Rich said:


> Did you get an estimate of what it would cost to have it installed?


No but my neighbor did. His was right around $7500 for the same generator.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Rich said:


> They finally got a lock-out tag-out system in place? We just did everything hot. Good for them. My ship participated in the first PM (preventive maintenance) system to be computerized. That was a huge undertaking.


Yep, there's a pretty specific system in place now. For some systems a padlock gets applied and a person is designated to "man the watch."



Rich said:


> I'm fine with anything up to 600V, and I'm qualified to make 4160V (the next big jump from 600V) splices, but I've had some terrifying experiences with 4160 and avoided that at all costs.


You're a better man than I. While I've worked on some high power avionics systems, us electronics guys tend not to splice wiring when energized :lol:



Rich said:


> But, you're right, even just unplugging a dryer and plugging in a generator to backfeed the CB box can be an adventure for some folks.


That one still gets me. Is that against the newer NEC, or is it acceptable with the main breaker off?


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I don't think it is ever acceptable to back feed the circuit breaker box, and is potentially very dangerous. Not saying that a lot of people don't do it, they do, and a great many have no problems. But the potential for a major screw up is there, and is all too easy to do.


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## FussyBob (Jan 11, 2009)

Watch these cheap China made generators as they produce what is called "dirty power" (high voltage spikes), due to loads swtiching in and out, such as, refridgerators, pumps, etc. You can fry you DVR's, TV's and other sensitive electronics (Cell phones, computers, etc.).

The better Honda converter type generators have much better control over voltage spikes.

Call the generator tech support and ask about this, most of the time they reply with good luck.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

I would recommend having any generator installed professionally. DIY is OK for some home project, but not for a generator install. 

The best way to do it is go to a company that sells and installs generators. It may cost a few dollars more initially but will make your home a lot safer than you trying to figure out instructions for a DIY project.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> No but my neighbor did. His was right around $7500 for the same generator.


That's just for the installation or the complete price of genny and installation?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> Yep, there's a pretty specific system in place now. For some systems a padlock gets applied and a person is designated to "man the watch."


Huh. Even more stringent than OSHA regs. OSHA just demands a lock and documentation in some cases and just absolute control of the switch in others. That might have changed since '94 when I quit working.



> You're a better man than I. While I've worked on some high power avionics systems, us electronics guys tend not to splice wiring when energized :lol:


That's not what I meant. Not hot splices. No way. Had a ball of green radiation (I was told that was what it was by an EE, take that for what that's worth) come down a fuse puller pole and chase me until I got behind a cinder block wall. Swear that damn thing was sentient, the way it came after me. Pulled the wrong fuse.



> That one still gets me. Is that against the newer NEC, or is it acceptable with the main breaker off?


I have no idea, hate the thought of even opening a copy of the NEC. I wouldn't consider it dangerous if done by a qualified electrician, if you can find one.

I don't mean to cast aspersions on electricians as a whole, but I've run across some real beauties.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

carl6 said:


> I don't think it is ever acceptable to back feed the circuit breaker box, and is potentially very dangerous. Not saying that a lot of people don't do it, they do, and a great many have no problems. But the potential for a major screw up is there, and is all too easy to do.


I agree. Wouldn't stop me from doing it if I had to. The thing that people don't get about electricity is you can't see it. When you're done and ready to energize, everything looks OK, then you hit the CB and BOOM! Simply put: we CAN'T make mistakes. The results of a faulty installation are too disastrous. A good electrician verifies and verifies every connection and all his work before hitting the on switch.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> I would recommend having any generator installed professionally. DIY is OK for some home project, but not for a generator install.
> 
> The best way to do it is go to a company that sells and installs generators. It may cost a few dollars more initially but will make your home a lot safer than you trying to figure out instructions for a DIY project.


I'm a firm believer in using mechanics (an electrician is a mechanic) to do jobs that they do every day rather than doing it myself, even tho I think I can do the job myself.

And then there's the insurance issue. If you don't get the job inspected and the house burns down because of that job, you might not get the house rebuilt. You'll surely have problems with your insurer if the cause is pinpointed at the work you did.

Rich


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Rich said:


> Huh. Even more stringent than OSHA regs. OSHA just demands a lock and documentation in some cases and just absolute control of the switch in others. That might have changed since '94 when I quit working.


While they're supposed to comply with OSHA, the military often has added "quirks" to throw at a problem. :lol:


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

carl6 said:


> I don't think it is ever acceptable to back feed the circuit breaker box, and is potentially very dangerous. Not saying that a lot of people don't do it, they do, and a great many have no problems. But the potential for a major screw up is there, and is all too easy to do.


Agree as well. I'm just curious whether it's against code to backfeed as mentioned above (even if done by an electrician.) I would think a transfer switch, or some modification to the panel would be required (to ensure a lockout of the main breaker) when the generator is connected. A guy down the block is an electrician, so I'll have to ask the next time I see him. I'll bet dollars to donuts that he won't know the answer either though


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

carl6 said:


> I don't think it is ever acceptable to back feed the circuit breaker box, and is potentially very dangerous. Not saying that a lot of people don't do it, they do, and a great many have no problems. But the potential for a major screw up is there, and is all too easy to do.


You don't have problems if you prepare everything ahead of time, research and know what you are doing, and make a check list of things you have to do in order (and another check list of how to tear it down safely). You don't want to be making this list for the first time in the dark and bitter cold after you haven't slept for a few days.

I lose power maybe once every 5 years, so a professional hookup for me is just silly. And how else are you going to power your furnace?


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

bobcamp1 said:


> You don't have problems if you prepare everything ahead of time, research and know what you are doing, and make a check list of things you have to do in order (and another check list of how to tear it down safely). You don't want to be making this list for the first time in the dark and bitter cold after you haven't slept for a few days.
> 
> I lose power maybe once every 5 years, so a professional hookup for me is just silly. And how else are you going to power your furnace?


Our military has some of the best pilots in the world, and they have checklists for everything. There are times that even they miss things... No doubt most don't have problems backfeeding a panel, but the potential is there for a serious issue.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

FussyBob said:


> Watch these cheap China made generators as they produce what is called "dirty power" (high voltage spikes), due to loads swtiching in and out, such as, refridgerators, pumps, etc. You can fry you DVR's, TV's and other sensitive electronics (Cell phones, computers, etc.).
> 
> The better Honda converter type generators have much better control over voltage spikes.
> 
> Call the generator tech support and ask about this, most of the time they reply with good luck.


A decent and inexpensive generator maintains a pretty nice sine wave at 120 VAC (and that can be checked with a voltmeter and adjusted if needed) with hardly any voltage spikes. In some areas it might even be cleaner than the power from the electric company. Maybe there's some noise on the 5th and 7th harmonics, but the things you plug into it will generate more noise than the generator itself.

The main problem with a portable generator is that it struggles to maintain 60 Hz, especially if there's a sudden load put on it (i.e. sump pump kicks in). Fortunately, the generator is only temporarily off in frequency, and usually by just 3 Hz at the most. Also, most electronics don't care whether it's 50 Hz or 60 Hz or even if it's 120 VAC or 230 VAC. All they do is convert it to low voltage DC anyway. The biggest threat from using generators is for compressors (refrigerators and freezers). I'd recommend not plugging them in at all, but they are the entire reason you bought the generator in the first place. Just be careful not to undervoltage them and you'll be OK.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> Our military has some of the best pilots in the world, and they have checklists for everything. There are times that even they miss things... No doubt most don't have problems backfeeding a panel, but the potential is there for a serious issue.


Even with the appropriate panel installed, there is potential for a serious issue if it is not done correctly. After all, the electrician is following a mental checklist of his own when he installs it. But as long as you turn off the main breaker before you do anything, that'll eliminate the most serious issue in backfeeding.

Is backfeeding against code? Sure. So are most of the Christmas lights I see people put up. You're not going to find an inspector in all of New Jersey right now to cite you with a backfeeding violation, and one that is temporary at that. Note that in most states it's against code to wire your furnace so it plugs into an outlet, even if the outlet is on its own dedicated circuit. There are several how-to's on the Internet on how to do this very thing so you can plug it directly into your portable generator. Yet I think over half the houses in the U.S. have their furnaces wired like that.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

bobcamp1 said:


> You don't have problems if you prepare everything ahead of time, research and know what you are doing, ...


 Perhaps, but what if someone else ends up trying to undo it after you've done it? 


bobcamp1 said:


> And how else are you going to power your furnace?


Well, I've got a gas furnace that uses 110V for ignitor and blower. I put a regular 120V AC power plug on the wire that feeds the furnace, and an outlet from the AC mains which it stays plugged into. When I lose power, I simply run an extension cord in from the generator and plug in the furnace. Simple, easy, and safe.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

carl6 said:


> Perhaps, but what if someone else ends up trying to undo it after you've done it?


That's the part I'd worry about. Having two AC sources in parallel (mains & generator) isn't like running two DC sources in parallel. Something is gonna give...

While it's possible that an electrician can miswire a transfer switch; I'd think that would be hard to do (and easy to check.) Once installed, there's not much room for error with a transfer switch. On the other hand, the error potential exists each and every time for those that backfeed a panel. I'm not judging, but I just can't imagine doing that in my home (even if I'm the only one completing the process each time.)


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

All it takes is one mistake and you can cause permanent damage. Backfeeding is NOT a good idea. If you did it, you would absolutely need to make sure your mains feed was OFF at any time the generator was connected. Transfer switches do this by making sure only one input can be on at the same time. No "oops" unless the transfer switch is broken.

I wired my house with additional separate wiring for the generator. NO connection to the main service. I crank up the generator and unplug stuff from the mains outlets to connect it to the generator powered outlets. Sometimes inconvenient but no chance for an oops.

And the few times the power fails and the power company comes around to check houses before restoring power I tell them that I am NOT backfed. They like that.

Your house, your responsibility ... but for me and my house, I will never backfeed.


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## palmgrower (Jul 18, 2011)

As a backfeeder for Frances & Jean and the two resulting fires and explosions in my neighborhoof after FPL (Florida Plunder & Loot) restored power to homes who didn't disconnect main when back feeding, we decided to do it right









When Katrina & Wilma hit, we rolled out the Kubota 12kw surge 10KW continuous diesel generator on to the back porch, ran the 6 gauge 4 wire to the transfer switch and let'r rip.
Best investment we ever made.
Our DTV is on UPS backups which seem to clean up the electricity from the grid and the generator.
If you want the Hurricanes to stay away, buy the best hurricane panels, a metal roof and a generator, haven't been hit since, lol


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> While they're supposed to comply with OSHA, the military often has added "quirks" to throw at a problem. :lol:


OSHA makes their rules. If the rules laid forth by a manufacturer or the Navy (I guess) are more stringent than OSHA's rules, those are the rules OSHA goes by.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> You don't have problems if you prepare everything ahead of time, research and know what you are doing, and make a check list of things you have to do in order (and another check list of how to tear it down safely). You don't want to be making this list for the first time in the dark and bitter cold after you haven't slept for a few days.
> 
> I lose power maybe once every 5 years, so a professional hookup for me is just silly. And how else are you going to power your furnace?


With a genny? What's special about a furnace? Serious question, I don't see any reason a genny can't be used to provide the power for a furnace.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

carl6 said:


> Perhaps, but what if someone else ends up trying to undo it after you've done it?


That's hard. As I said earlier, you can't see electricity and you can't read the previous electrician's mind. That's why you're better off using the same electrician for connecting and disconnecting things such as backfed CB boxes.



> Well, I've got a gas furnace that uses 110V for ignitor and blower. I put a regular 120V AC power plug on the wire that feeds the furnace, and an outlet from the AC mains which it stays plugged into. When I lose power, I simply run an extension cord in from the generator and plug in the furnace. Simple, easy, and safe.


Yeah, I didn't get that one either.

Rich


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Rich said:


> OSHA makes their rules. If the rules laid forth by a manufacturer or the Navy (I guess) are more stringent than OSHA's rules, those are the rules OSHA goes by.
> 
> Rich


For clarity; my mention of "manning the watch" in addition to the standard tag out/lock out wasn't anything that was really official policy (at least not when I was in.) I had a Division officer that used E-nothings for furniture (when they pissed him off.) He'd make them get down on all fours and use them as a table; placing a picture, candy bowl, etc on their back. We'd also draw a chalk circle on the flight deck (for the guys that couldn't resist crossing in front of landing aircraft.) They were to stand inside the tiny circle to ensure they didn't kill themselves.

All of this is pretty far off topic so I apologize. There's many things we used to do (mostly to prevent stupid people from killing themselves or others) while at sea. Most of which would not be considered standard "policy" or be anything that would translate to OSHA.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Especially since OSHA's authority doesn't extend to military/combat related equipment or operations.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

trh said:


> Especially since OSHA's authority doesn't extend to military/combat related equipment or operations.


Take you a long time to root thru the Net to figure that out? OSHA doesn't even cover federal buildings.


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## Joe C (Mar 3, 2005)

If you are going to backfeed your panel, use an interlock kit so you can't goof up while running the genny. Pretty simple. http://www.interlockkit.com/


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

anondtvtec said:


> I can't believe customers are so addicted to TV, they insist on running TV/IRD's/SWM off a generator. How pathetic is that?


Nothing pathetic or addictive about that. If you have a whole house or a large KW generator, to heat or cool your home when the power is out, it will power everything in your home.


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## BlackDynamite (Jun 5, 2007)

"anondtvtec" said:


> I can't believe customers are so addicted to TV, they insist on running TV/IRD's/SWM off a generator. How pathetic is that?


Is it really any worse than putting Directv in a motor home?

I have Directv in my motor home, and I love it. I have been following this thread so I can hopefully learn how to use a generator to power my house (including Directv) during a power outage.

It may be pathetic, I guess, but I think it's pretty awesome that people have figured out how to do it and they are willing to share that knowledge.

I look forward to setting it up myself someday when I can afford it.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

anondtvtec said:


> The generator, no. But TV isn't essential. Generators are meant for essential functions. I got so many calls this past week from Sandy idiots, and they all whined about their boxes not working on generator. What spoiled boobs.


That is true, it is not essential, but when I lived in Florida and we lost power for 10 days, due to a hurricane, and it sure was nice to be able to watch TV using the generator. All my non generator neighbors were over at our house at night. I made them bring the popcorn and beer.


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

loudo said:


> That is true, it is not essential, but when I lived in Florida and we lost power for 10 days, due to a hurricane, and it sure was nice to be able to watch TV using the generator. All my non generator neighbors were over at our house at night. I made them bring the popcorn and beer.


I bet! My power has been out since last Monday...no heat, no lights, no internet (I'm at my MIL house right now) and NO TV! We were supposed to be back up and running on Saturday but like a lot of other people, our estimated restoration date has come and gone and we are freeeeeeeeezing! And bored!  Never experienced anything like this....will be prepared for the next time!


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Is TV an essential? That depends on the person, and on what you want to watch. Personally, TV is pretty important if for no other reason than to watch the news and get important information from local authorities. Beyond that, some recreation in a time of emergency can be a huge stress reliever, and that too is important. So while on one hand I want to agree with the sentiment that television isn't or shouldn't be an essential, on the other hand there is no denying there is some important use for it. For those who are able to keep their systems going, more power to them (no pun intended).


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Rich said:


> OSHA doesn't even cover federal buildings.


Actually, it does, with some exceptions.


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## Mark40930 (Aug 2, 2007)

FussyBob said:


> Watch these cheap China made generators as they produce what is called "dirty power" (high voltage spikes), due to loads swtiching in and out, such as, refridgerators, pumps, etc. You can fry you DVR's, TV's and other sensitive electronics (Cell phones, computers, etc.).
> 
> The better Honda converter type generators have much better control over voltage spikes.
> 
> Call the generator tech support and ask about this, most of the time they reply with good luck.


Check out Hardy Diesel, they stock a wide variety of diesel and NG generators. The Perkins units are very decent quality.


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## palmgrower (Jul 18, 2011)

Mark40930 said:


> Check out Hardy Diesel, they stock a wide variety of diesel and NG generators. The Perkins units are very decent quality.


Excellent quality but not as fuel efficient as the Kubotas.
In a ten day cycle we measured a one day fuel advantage with the Kubota powered diesels over JD, CAT, Perkins, and Onan with the same load.
This experience is with the 40KW units only. I have no data from other sizes.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Aye, they do, but still incredibly dumb.



dsw2112 said:


> Amazing :eek2:
> 
> Do they at least kill the main breaker to the panel (to isolate from the grid) when they do that?


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Eh. Get an electrician to properly wire a transfer switch for you, then it is quite a simple matter for Joe Homeowner to plug in his portable genny. This is how a lot of folks here in FL handle hurricane prep. Not all of us can afford the initial and ongoing cost of a permanent whole home genny.



loudo said:


> I would recommend having any generator installed professionally. DIY is OK for some home project, but not for a generator install.
> 
> The best way to do it is go to a company that sells and installs generators. It may cost a few dollars more initially but will make your home a lot safer than you trying to figure out instructions for a DIY project.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

You're trying extra hard to make enemies up here.....

I've long taken the stance up here that TV isn't a life changing thing, or even necessary, and in fact, some folks up here just blow my mind with their apparently TV-centric lives. That being said - I once went without power (hurricane Wilma) for 6 weeks. TV certainly wasn't essential, but when your life is disrupted to that degree, for that length of time, it is certainly a nice to have distraction. Especially during football season.

I tried early on to help you out, and in fact I love your twitter feed, but your ongoing and relentless animosity is unsettling.



anondtvtec said:


> The generator, no. But TV isn't essential. Generators are meant for essential functions. I got so many calls this past week from Sandy idiots, and they all whined about their boxes not working on generator. What spoiled boobs.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

carl6 said:


> Is TV an essential?


I suspect that if we were thrust into a situation the likes of Sandra, a modicum of understanding that the whole World has not come to a grizzly end is pretty important. I still can't explain the tailgating thing.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

TV is essential during a disaster like this. I had no phone or internet. What if there was an emergency evac or something? That's why I needed it. I have no cell service here either. Don't just assume everybody is just whining brats.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

That being said. My Powerhorse generator I got from Northerntool worked great though. I got the 7000 watt version. It powered my whole house! I was mostly interested in the well pump/heat and Fridge. But being able to watch TV(Cable was out the whole week, thank god for DirecTV) was great!


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Having been personally and directly through 5 hurricanes, numerous tropical storms, and more near misses than I can count, I have to disagree and say that TV is not, in fact, essential. Radio, yes. TV, meh. Emergency evac? Um... in a hurricane, you've either left before hand, or you're hunkering down. You aren't moving about during.



Tom_S said:


> TV is essential during a disaster like this. I had no phone or internet. What if there was an emergency evac or something? That's why I needed it. I have no cell service here either. Don't just assume everybody is just whining brats.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Radio? Have no need to hear the latest hits. TV gives me eyes on the ground. And like I said. I had no other communication. No Phone, Internet, Nothing. Now maybe emergency evac was a bad example in this case(Hurricane). But it was just AN EXAMPLE! Who knows what else, jeez I had no idea of the GAS problems until I saw it on TV. There are many other examples. The point is TV is essential.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

You can get all that info just fine on the radio. You've been sucked into TV too far


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

loudo said:


> That is true, it is not essential, but when I lived in Florida and we lost power for 10 days, due to a hurricane, and it sure was nice to be able to watch TV using the generator. All my non generator neighbors were over at our house at night. I made them bring the popcorn and beer.


+1
When we took a direct hit from Hurricane Ike it was extremely nice that DTV was working and the cable was out.
We got information about damages, roads closed , where not to go, places that were open and had food or gas for the generator.
We have 2 small window unit ACs for emergency or if the main AC goes out and has to be repaired.
The *5500* watt generator ran the Refrigerator, the 2 window units, 3 TV systems.
My kids and their kids came here to stay where it was cooler, had cold drinks and could see the info on the TVs.
The little ones just wanted to watch TV.
I have natural gas for cooking, clothes drying and hot water.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

Maybe ten years ago that would have been the case, but these days radio is only good if you live in an area with a decent nightime signal or have a local staff that wasn't let go in favor of a satellite format from Clear Channel where the few local news breaks are taped in advanced and voicetracked by someone in San Antonio who can't pronounce any of the local names correctly. The AM stations here in Northeast PA have nighttime signals that barely make it outside of the city limits, and instead of doing the smart thing and having the FM stations simulcast their sister AM station that actually had news like NYC and Philly did, they just aired their regular playlist. Then of course the owner of the only local station in the Poconos is in a bankruptcy auction with a barebones staff, so in previous years where they were the station to turn to during storms, they were useless.

On the otherhand, the TV stations stepped up to the game and provided regular updates during the day and had emergency info on a ticker when needed.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Yikes, makes me glad to have WLW. The government forced them to reduce power, but still has a large range.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

jimmie57 said:


> +1
> When we took a direct hit from Hurricane Ike it was extremely nice that DTV was working and the cable was out.
> We got information about damages, roads closed , where not to go, places that were open and had food or gas for the generator.
> We have 2 small window unit ACs for emergency or if the main AC goes out and has to be repaired.
> ...


I'm guessing you meant 5500 watt


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Tom_S said:


> Radio? Have no need to hear the latest hits. TV gives me eyes on the ground. And like I said. I had no other communication. No Phone, Internet, Nothing. Now maybe emergency evac was a bad example in this case(Hurricane). But it was just AN EXAMPLE! Who knows what else, jeez I had no idea of the GAS problems until I saw it on TV. There are many other examples. The point is TV is essential.





JeffBowser said:


> You can get all that info just fine on the radio. You've been sucked into TV too far


TV is not perfect, but radio has gone downhill to the point where it is not as useful as it once was. The digital TV conversion helped radio (less portable devices that could tune a usable signal) but TV can get a lot more information across in a limited amount of time.

If one is to the point in a disaster where one CAN set up a generator then the portability drawbacks of DTV are reduced.

As an example - the last major weather event that hit my home we lost satellite due to the extreme cloud cover and torrential rain. (It was one of those rain storms where the cable company loses their satellite reception on their big dishes.) We had power and internet so I was watching NWS weather radar on my laptop with TV streamed from an OTA tuner (HD Homerun) to see the weather warnings and progress of the storm.

I never considered turning on a radio ... most the local stations are automated and the only information they would broadcast would be the Emergency Alerts I was seeing online and repeated on TV. (On radio, if one misses the EAS broadcast the information is missed ... back to Otto Mation and the music machine!)

The last major power outage where I am was an ice storm. Once the immediate danger of the storm passed and we waited for the power crews to restore power, cranking up the generator and watching TV made perfect sense. Satellite TV even more so as the cable system was down (since they relied on commercial power).

I have the generator so I can run the water pump (flush toilets! yay!), run the gas furnace (heat! yay!) and fridge (keep food safe! yay!) and have a few lights on (no candles, no fires). But if I can also run a TV and satellite receiver why not?


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

A major hurricane takes down broadcast towers and distribution centers. In my area, after Wilma, local radio survived oddly enough, and the local TV stations utilized that resource and provided local news until their towers and broadcasting ability was restored. I'm not sure how many of you have actually been through a real disaster. I have been, Andrew was my first - I'm not talking run of the mill winter storms, even nor' easters - I'm talking real destructive events that disable large swaths of a state for large periods of a time. In such an event, TV pales in comparison to real life and real life struggle. Mind you, I'm not arguing TV is useless. I am, and have always, argued that TV takes a far too elevated a position in modern society, (and certainly up here  ). It's nice to have sure, but one can never sell me that it's "essential"


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Watch this video and you will see a good reason for having a back up generator, to keep you informed during a storm. This hurricane was my first experience with owning one. I will never go without one again. Some of you may recognize Brian Norcross, who is now with the Weather Channel.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

dsw2112 said:


> I'm guessing you meant 5500 watt


Yes, thanks. I fixed it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JeffBowser said:


> A major hurricane takes down broadcast towers and distribution centers.


Radio uses towers too!

Crank up the generator and tune to The Weather Channel or national news network of your choice. Hurricanes rarely take those down. (And when you are bored with the news, watch ESPN or something else as a diversion.)

If the kids want disaster coverage they can look out the window ... if they want Spongebob (and you want The Daily Show) you are going to need satellite.


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## trainman (Jan 9, 2008)

dpeters11 said:


> Yikes, makes me glad to have WLW. The government forced them to reduce power, but still has a large range.


They're still operating a nondirectional signal at 50,000 watts, the most an AM station is allowed -- or are you referring to 70 years ago, when their temporary authorization for 500,000 watts was not renewed?


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

"JeffBowser" said:


> You can get all that info just fine on the radio. You've been sucked into TV too far


You must live somewhere with local radio choices. Aside from a college FM station, likely to be off the air, the TV stations 50 miles away are more likely to show what's going on in my county - than their radio stations are to even know what's happening.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

My local radio stations are substantially automated outside of business day hours so they're not a whole lot of use. The stations further away are a mix of automation, pre-recorded programs (including syndicated offerings) and live.


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## BlackDynamite (Jun 5, 2007)

"harsh" said:


> My local radio stations are substantially automated outside of business day hours so they're not a whole lot of use. The stations further away are a mix of automation, pre-recorded programs (including syndicated offerings) and live.


I would say tv is essential after a disaster like a hurricane. Is there a less effective alternative? Sure, in some cases radio can be used instead.

Which brings us to the question, what is really essential? Would you say water is essential? Even though you could technically get by with diet Pepsi?

Is a fridge essential? Even though you could technically get by with a cooler?

Is a furnace essential? Even though you can technically get by with a sleeping bag?

My opinion is, yes, these things are essential. Even though there are some less effective alternatives.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Correct, but in my example after Wilma, the radio remained broadcasting. TV, no.

And I'll reiterate to the others - TV does not elevate to essential. Essential is air, water, food, shelter.... Of course, me saying this on this website, well.... that's a fairly useless thing to do :lol:



James Long said:


> Radio uses towers too!


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

Ed Campbell said:


> You must live somewhere with local radio choices. Aside from a college FM station, likely to be off the air, the TV stations 50 miles away are more likely to show what's going on in my county - than their radio stations are to even know what's happening.


Yeah, both of my local college stations were broadcasting dead air during the brunt of Sandy.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JeffBowser said:


> Correct, but in my example after Wilma, the radio remained broadcasting. TV, no.


And I'm sure one could list examples that went either way ...
I approached the question with the premise "I cranked up my generator to watch TV". At the point in the weather inconveniences I have suffered that I got to the point of turning on the generator pretty much the entire broadcast community had already done so (or never lost the ability to transmit). So I had the choice of TV or radio or satellite.

Given the choice of all that and the ability to run a generator powering satellite TV isn't a bad choice. But if I had to choose between watching satellite and flushing the toilets (I'm not connected to city water) the toilets come first.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Ok, this discussion thread has got to me. Today I called 3 places to get estimates on the installation of a whole house system, to replace the manual switches and portable 5600 watt generator I now have. I started thinking of one storm last winter when we had a foot of snow and lost power. I had to shovel the pad and hook the generator up in the dark. Then every so often go back outside and take down the table I had over the generator for protection and fill the gas tank.

They are coming for the estimates next week.


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

If you have a source of power, why not run a TV. A picture is worth a thousand words.


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## palmgrower (Jul 18, 2011)

loudo, you will never regret that decision


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

:righton::righton: Agreed



James Long said:


> And I'm sure one could list examples that went either way ...
> I approached the question with the premise "I cranked up my generator to watch TV". At the point in the weather inconveniences I have suffered that I got to the point of turning on the generator pretty much the entire broadcast community had already done so (or never lost the ability to transmit). So I had the choice of TV or radio or satellite.
> 
> Given the choice of all that and the ability to run a generator powering satellite TV isn't a bad choice. But if I had to choose between watching satellite and flushing the toilets (I'm not connected to city water) the toilets come first.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

Agree on the water for sure Our city water was out for several days so i rigged a couple of hoses and fed our house from the sprinkler pump. Didn't realize how good our well was, softer water than the city's


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

davring said:


> Agree on the water for sure Our city water was out for several days so i rigged a couple of hoses and fed our house from the sprinkler pump. Didn't realize how good our well was, softer water than the city's


Did you BACKFEED your home? :lol:


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## V'ger (Oct 4, 2007)

BlackDynamite said:


> I would say tv is essential after a disaster like a hurricane. Is there a less effective alternative? Sure, in some cases radio can be used instead.
> 
> Which brings us to the question, what is really essential? Would you say water is essential? Even though you could technically get by with diet Pepsi?
> 
> ...


Well, the election sealed the fate of OTA TV. The UHF band will be given to the cell phone companies for data, as they have run out of bandwidth on existing frequencies.

One of the heads of the wireless phone companies said earlier this year that DTV better get used to VHF if they want to continue to broadcast.

An older FCC proposal was to limit each DMA to just six channels, using subchannels where needed (effectively the end of HD OTA).The new proposal has several options, to allow a station to be paid to relocate, to voluntarily relocate to a lower frequency; or to just be bought out and forced off the air (using proceeds of the bandwidth sale).

The cost of changing antennas, transmitters and getting a useful frequency asssignment for the second time in less than 10 years will cause many stations to go out of business or go internet only.

That begs the question of 'must carry'. DirecTV and Dish have put billions into putting up larger than needed satellites to support spot beams to send locals as part of 'must carry'. If 2/3rds of the stations go away, what does that mean to the satellite companies who could have built smaller and lower cost birds?

Finally, if 2/3rds of the affiliates go away, more than likely so will the four networks and their news departments, at best becoming another cable channel.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

V'ger;3128728 said:


> Well, the election sealed the fate of OTA TV. The UHF band will be given to the cell phone companies for data, as they have run out of bandwidth on existing frequencies.
> 
> One of the heads of the wireless phone companies said earlier this year that DTV better get used to VHF if they want to continue to broadcast.
> 
> ...


Can you give a source for this? (without getting political which is not permitted here) While the original digital conversion did give channels 52 - 69 over to other users I have heard nothing about giving up the whole UHF band.


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## TXD16 (Oct 30, 2008)

James Long said:


> Did you BACKFEED your home? :lol:


He did, and he killed three plumbers who were working on the main line when the water came back on. :lol:


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

V'ger;3128728 said:


> Well, the election sealed the fate of OTA TV. The UHF band will be given to the cell phone companies for data, as they have run out of bandwidth on existing frequencies.


There has been, for several years (and administrations) rebanding to provide more bandwidth for both cellular data as well as nationwide LTE conversion for public safety. Nothing in the recent election has/had anything to do with this in any way.


V'ger;3128728 said:


> One of the heads of the wireless phone companies said earlier this year that DTV better get used to VHF if they want to continue to broadcast.


This doesn't even make sense, as DirecTV has never used UHF or VHF. Direct Broadcast Satellite operates way above anything terrestrial television uses.


V'ger;3128728 said:


> An older FCC proposal was to limit each DMA to just six channels, using subchannels where needed (effectively the end of HD OTA).The new proposal has several options, to allow a station to be paid to relocate, to voluntarily relocate to a lower frequency; or to just be bought out and forced off the air (using proceeds of the bandwidth sale).


Can you please provide links/references to the "new proposal".


V'ger;3128728 said:


> The cost of changing antennas, transmitters and getting a useful frequency asssignment for the second time in less than 10 years will cause many stations to go out of business or go internet only.


Again, please provide links/references to anything that is requiring any currently on-air station to change frequencies again.


V'ger;3128728 said:


> That begs the question of 'must carry'. DirecTV and Dish have put billions into putting up larger than needed satellites to support spot beams to send locals as part of 'must carry'. If 2/3rds of the stations go away, what does that mean to the satellite companies who could have built smaller and lower cost birds?
> 
> Finally, if 2/3rds of the affiliates go away, more than likely so will the four networks and their news departments, at best becoming another cable channel.


Even if there was another rebanding that mandated stations to change frequencies (of which there is none I am aware of), it is questionable if that would cause any, let alone 2/3rds, to go out of business. Unjustified speculation at best, fiction at worst.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

davring said:


> Agree on the water for sure Our city water was out for several days so i rigged a couple of hoses and fed our house from the sprinkler pump. Didn't realize how good our well was, softer water than the city's





James Long said:


> Did you BACKFEED your home? :lol:


My sprinkler system has a backflow preventor on it (I think it is code). It stops water that went into my sprinkler pipes from flowing back into the potable/drinking water system. So I'm wondering if he possibly could have back-fed the city water?


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

V'ger;3128728 said:


> Well, the election sealed the fate of OTA TV. The UHF band will be given to the cell phone companies for data, as they have run out of bandwidth on existing frequencies.
> 
> One of the heads of the wireless phone companies said earlier this year that DTV better get used to VHF if they want to continue to broadcast.
> 
> ...


What will happen to sports on OTA TV in Chicago then with a OTA cut down.

WGN get's the rights to dump as much CW shows as they want and stops useing WCIU?? Still may have gaps as there has been times games on both WCIU and WGN.

CSN Chicago picks up the load??? They may be hard pressed to have 3-4 HD feeds live at the same time Yes we can have all 4 teams playing at the same time or a mix of team needs and a college game or 2 on CSN. Also may hit CLTV as some cable system use the CLTV slots for CSN + may lead to a split of that.

WGN uses CLTV for sports needs forcing a split, Comcast to pick up CLTV HD and forcing all area systems to pick up CLTV HD to get the games?

The Spanish channels / PBS channels get killed off? (we have a lot of OTA channels)


----------



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

V'ger;3128728 said:


> Well, the election sealed the fate of OTA TV.


Consider the line drawn for political comments. This is NOT a place for political discussion.

The future of OTA digital TV is something we can discuss as long as people keep the politics out of the discussion. It might be better to find one of the many previous discussions on the issue since this thread is about using DirecTV on a generator ... not the reassignment of OTA frequencies.



> That begs the question of 'must carry'. DirecTV and Dish have put billions into putting up larger than needed satellites to support spot beams to send locals as part of 'must carry'.


That problem has been dealt with in the proposals. If two (or more) licensed stations decide to share an RF channel they remain separate stations under the 'must carry' rules. The primary feed of each station must be carried by satellite/cable if that is what the station elects. HD adds a wrinkle that needs to be solved. Currently if a station is not transmitting HD over the air they cannot demand HD carriage via satellite/cable.



carl6 said:


> This doesn't even make sense, as DirecTV has never used UHF or VHF. Direct Broadcast Satellite operates way above anything terrestrial television uses.


"DTV" in this case is ATSC Digital Television, not DirecTV.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

James Long said:


> Did you BACKFEED your home? :lol:


Yes sir, a couple of neighbors too


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## Joe166 (Jan 6, 2007)

zkc16 said:


> He did, and he killed three plumbers who were working on the main line when the water came back on. :lol:


 The problem is that death does not stop their hourly clock! This is going to hurt!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

So, I called up a company called Gold Medal and asked how much a 17,000W NG generator would cost to install.

I could have bought the genny on Amazon for about 3 grand plus $600 for the transfer switch. 

I was told by one of the managers that they don't install "other people's" generators, just their own brand. OK, how much? Total cost for purchase and installation of their 17,000W genny: $1,000 per watt! Or, a grand total of "only" $17,000.

Obviously Gold Medal got that gold medal for fleecing people out of money. 

Rich


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rich said:


> So, I called up a company called Gold Medal and asked how much a 17,000W NG generator would cost to install.
> 
> I was told by one of the managers that they don't install "other people's" generators, just their own brand. OK, how much? Total cost for purchase and installation of their 17,000W genny: $1,000 per watt! Or, a grand total of "only" $17,000.
> Rich


You are getting a price from a price gouger, due to the recent hurricane. I had the same thing up here. I got 4 prices and 2 were in line and the other two were like yours, way out of line. I ended up getting a 14KW and a 200 amp switch, completely installed for just over $6000.

Just have to wait a few weeks for them to get back in stock.


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## palmgrower (Jul 18, 2011)

40KW Kubota Turbodiesel with 200 gallon double wall tank , 200 amp switch plus installation in South Florida, including pad is $20k

Sad to see price gouging in a time of distress.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

Rich said:


> So, I called up a company called Gold Medal and asked how much a 17,000W NG generator would cost to install.
> 
> I could have bought the genny on Amazon for about 3 grand plus $600 for the transfer switch.
> 
> ...


Well a BIG GEN / transfer switch is some what out side of the DIY area.


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## Combat Medic (Jul 27, 2007)

JoeTheDragon said:


> Well a BIG GEN / transfer switch is some what out side of the DIY area.


Depends on your background. I plan on installing my own generator of that size and the only thing I'm worried about is placing it on the pad.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

JoeTheDragon said:


> Well a BIG GEN / transfer switch is some what out side of the DIY area.


I disagree. Took a while, but did it myself this past summer. When the Derecho hit, I was looking at being without power in 100 degree heat for a week or more. So on day 2 or 3 I went to HD and bought a 17Kw Generac with a ATS. Took about 6 hours to get it rigged enough to get me through that outage. After that was over, I took my time and read as much as I could and did it right. The ME that I called over to look at it said it was a very good job.



Combat Medic said:


> Depends on your background. I plan on installing my own generator of that size and the only thing I'm worried about is placing it on the pad.


Wife and I used Egyptian engineering. Got a piece of 2" PVC and cut it in 3 pieces. Got the generator on two and as I pushed, she replaced the pieces. Worked great.


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## Combat Medic (Jul 27, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> Wife and I used Egyptian engineering. Got a piece of 2" PVC and cut it in 3 pieces. Got the generator on two and as I pushed, she replaced the pieces. Worked great.


Often the simple solutions are the best.


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## Rickt1962 (Jul 17, 2012)

LOL Funny thing i did this 20 years ago before the invented these easy do it your selfer's

I have a 4500 watt propane Gen at my house built in and works Great ! It handles my well water pump, Fridg, and TV. I have Gas Fire places and water heater and cook stove. So no need for anymore.

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
A 10kw for a home is plenty to survive ! I have installed 3 for friends and family and it is very easy so long you have basic electric knowledge. They come with a pad, a switch and conversion kit between NG, LP for the carb.

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

But 90% can live with this model for only $1900.00


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> You are getting a price from a price gouger, due to the recent hurricane. I had the same thing up here. I got 4 prices and 2 were in line and the other two were like yours, way out of line. I ended up getting a 14KW and a 200 amp switch, completely installed for just over $6000.
> 
> Just have to wait a few weeks for them to get back in stock.


Gold Medal is the highest price company of it's kind around here. That's their normal price. I have a friend who's a licensed electrician, I'll get him to install one. Gold Medal just feeds on people who don't know any better year round. Don't need a catastrophe to jack up their prices, they're always that high. Don't know if they operate in other states, but unless you gotta have something done immediately, I'd stay away from Gold Medal.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JoeTheDragon said:


> Well a BIG GEN / transfer switch is some what out side of the DIY area.


I've actually put in much bigger gennys than that, but I don't feel like doing it. I'd feel better with a licensed electrician and plumber doing that work. DIY puts the liability on you, using licensed tradesmen puts the liability on them.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

palmgrower said:


> 40KW Kubota Turbodiesel with 200 gallon double wall tank , 200 amp switch plus installation in South Florida, including pad is $20k
> 
> Sad to see price gouging in a time of distress.


Gold Medal is an equal opportunity gouger and does it year round. No catastrophes needed.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Combat Medic said:


> Depends on your background. I plan on installing my own generator of that size and the only thing I'm worried about is placing it on the pad.


If I wasn't so lazy.... :lol:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Combat Medic said:


> Often the simple solutions are the best.


Trick is getting the pad level.

Rich


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Rich said:


> Trick is getting the pad level.
> 
> Rich


If necessary, use washers as shims, or better yet, for more precise leveling, use double-nuts to adjust to exactly level, then lock down gen.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Rich said:


> I'd feel better with a licensed electrician and plumber doing that work. DIY puts the liability on you, using licensed tradesmen puts the liability on them.


I have seen the jack-leg work the "Licensed Master Electrician" did on my house. I'll go with me.

Normally running gas pipe is not something that is DIY. But I grew up on gas wells and pipelines as it was the family business. I have been working on wellheads since I was 14 or so. So I know what I am doing and am very comfortable doing it. Wouldn't risk my family's safety if I wasn't.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Rich said:


> Trick is getting the pad level.


Actually the Generac that I got recommends putting it on a 4-6" bed of gravel instead of a concrete pad.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Nick said:


> If necessary, use washers as shims, or better yet, for more precise leveling, use double-nuts to adjust to exactly level, then lock down gen.


I have not seen any mention of pads aside from posts on this thread. Wonder how much they cost? The gennys must come with levelers built in, getting the pad level and keeping it level might be a problem.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> I have seen the jack-leg work the "Licensed Master Electrician" did on my house. I'll go with me.


As I've said many times, finding a good electrician is difficult. The guy I know and I used to work on jobs together and, if I do install one, I'll work with him.



> Normally running gas pipe is not something that is DIY. But I grew up on gas wells and pipelines as it was the family business. I have been working on wellheads since I was 14 or so. So I know what I am doing and am very comfortable doing it. Wouldn't risk my family's safety if I wasn't.


I was never allowed do work as you were, union stopped me from doing anything but electrical work. I wouldn't be comfy with the NG thing, but I'd pay happily to have that done by someone that knows what he's doing.

The permitting process and inspections should cover installation for insurance purposes.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> Actually the Generac that I got recommends putting it on a 4-6" bed of gravel instead of a concrete pad.


Usually, that's not a bad idea. I was thinking of a pad sitting on a few inches of three quarter stone and a couple inches of sand, but if the maker recommends the gravel, that's even easier.

Rich


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rich said:


> I have not seen any mention of pads aside from posts on this thread. Wonder how much they cost? The gennys must come with levelers built in, getting the pad level and keeping it level might be a problem.
> 
> Rich


One of the sales person I had told me that some companies have pads that go with the generators. They are soft and sound absorbing. The pad sets on a bed of gravel.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> I have seen the jack-leg work the "Licensed Master Electrician" did on my house. I'll go with me.
> 
> Normally running gas pipe is not something that is DIY. But I grew up on gas wells and pipelines as it was the family business. I have been working on wellheads since I was 14 or so. So I know what I am doing and am very comfortable doing it. Wouldn't risk my family's safety if I wasn't.


I've never heard of a "Licensed Master Electrician", unless that's something the guy threw into an ad for impact. I know NJ takes no notice of whether you're a Master, Senior or ordinary electrician as far as the licensing test goes. Master and Senior being synonymous.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> One of the sales person I had told me that some companies have pads that go with the generators. They are soft and sound absorbing. The pad sets on a bed of gravel.


Yup, in the chemical plant I worked in we put everything on concrete pads, so I'm not really sure what the requirements are state by state.

I'd guess with the kind of pad you're talking about, it would just settle into the pad. Thinking about it, I gotta wonder how much impact on the gennys leveling has to do with their installation. Does it have to be exact or ballpark?

Rich


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

loudo said:


> I ended up getting a 14KW and a 200 amp switch, completely installed for just over $6000.


That sounds reasonable. I just received a quote of $9,000 to install this unit > http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202493184&R=202493184 (gas line not included).


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Vin said:


> That sounds reasonable. I just received a quote of $9,000 to install this unit > http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202493184&R=202493184 (gas line not included).


$9,000 just to install it? Or is the price of the genny included in that? And they don't install the gas line?

Generators aren't that complicated. The transfer switch is more complicated than the genny itself. Even that's not that hard to install. The big transfer switches I've worked on were controlled by a relay that was in one position when the normal power was on and when it went off, the relay dropped out allowing the transfer switch to move to the genny position. These were on big diesel gennys.

Rich


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## Rickt1962 (Jul 17, 2012)

The last Generac I installed came with a Hard Plastic pad


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Rich said:


> $9,000 just to install it? Or is the price of the genny included in that? And they don't install the gas line?
> 
> Generators aren't that complicated. The transfer switch is more complicated than the genny itself. Even that's not that hard to install. The big transfer switches I've worked on were controlled by a relay that was in one position when the normal power was on and when it went off, the relay dropped out allowing the transfer switch to move to the genny position. These were on big diesel gennys.
> 
> Rich


No, that includes the generator but conisidering it's retail price, the labor charge seems high to me. And he (the electrical contractor) said it was up to me whether I wanted to use his plumber at a cost of around $1,500 or I could get my own plumber.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Vin said:


> That sounds reasonable. I just received a quote of $9,000 to install this unit > http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202493184&R=202493184 (gas line not included).


Identical unit I've been focused on, though I'd really like one of the $3000 hypothetical Bloom Energy home fuel cell units that they talked about a couple of years ago 

Also thought about solar but fuel cell may really be the future, but may need 14RESA in the meantime.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

We have been getting quotes in the $9500 range for a 20kW Generac, all plumbing and electrical included. $9,000 for a 14kW plus another $1500 for the gas line seems pretty high.


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## Rickt1962 (Jul 17, 2012)

WOW I hate to see my fellow DBS'ers get taken. You need to step back and think how much KWH you need for your home. What is important ? What do you have to cover ? Refridg , TV , Heat, Etc. Then get the Gen you need to cover it. I wired the Generac to the panel in 2 hours. Just so long the sub panel can be with in 1 foot of your orginal panel from wer u locate the unit out side. The gas line being run with Trac pipe to the gen or iron pipe will need a plumber. Unless u hav the knowledge to run it with copper or Iron. Trac requires special tools and Lic. again it is how far they have to run it is the price. A normal install shouldnt be more then $ 1000.00 to $ 1500.00


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Unless you live in a mansion, it is rare that you would ever need more than about 10KW and that's if you run everything in your house all at the same time. Most could be very comfortable with a 5KW to 7KW generator. Plus, the bigger the genset, the more fuel it burns, and the more often it needs refueling. If on gas, you're okay as long as the gas line isn't damaged.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Vin said:


> That sounds reasonable. I just received a quote of $9,000 to install this unit > http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202493184&R=202493184 (gas line not included).


This was the unit I got from a local electrical/generator contractor. My price did not include gas work either. My gas guy told me it would run about $600.00 for everything for the gas.
http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-O...Id=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.ULVFQddX80U


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rickt1962 said:


> The last Generac I installed came with a Hard Plastic pad


That was what I was mentioning earlier. The way the contractor explained it, they come with the unit.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

carl6 said:


> Plus, the bigger the genset, the more fuel it burns, and the more often it needs refueling. If on gas, you're okay as long as the gas line isn't damaged.


That is not totally true. This came off a chart that was given to me by one of the people I talked to.


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## Rickt1962 (Jul 17, 2012)

loudo said:


> That is not totally true. This came off a chart that was given to me by one of the people I talked to.


Yes that is correct ! its like a gas peddle of a Car the more u push it the more fuel u will use. As i stated earlier in the thread My home is 6000+ sqft I installed my own 20 years ago ! Its only 4500 watt LP. I have a 1000 gal under ground tank. Everything in my home is gas ! So I put in a 220 volt dryer jack in my shed I back feed my house with it. I turn off the main breakers, Yes breakers I have 2 two hundred breaker panels with a 220-50amp breaker crossing over both panels. So when the power goes off I flip off the two 200 amp mains then start the 4500 wat gen and go in and flip on my 50's. My 4500 handles my fridg, TV, well pump. Everything else i have runs off of gas. A 1000 gal tank will last 30 days. The longest i ever had to use it was a week.

The funny thing was I installed it 20 years ago ! I think i went almost 10 years before i used it when we lost power more then a day. I do remember it was Xmas in the middle of a Blizzard ! And 3 years ago when a Hurrican knocked our power out for a week. My only cost is the tractor battery i have to buy every 3+ years ! It does have a pull rope starter. As any thing u dont use much unless you break the union and let the gas bleed out you get alot of air build up to the unit and you will be pulling that rope along time ! LOL


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Diana C said:


> We have been getting quotes in the $9500 range for a 20kW Generac, all plumbing and electrical included. $9,000 for a 14kW plus another $1500 for the gas line seems pretty high.


Yeah, I was prepared to go for as much as $7,000 for the complete job but the quote I received has me rethinking this project. Now that a few weeks have passed since the storm and my zeal has waned (time heals all wounds)  I'm leaning towards just getting a portable generator, especially considering how infrequently we've lost power in the 25 years we've been in our house.

I have an electrician coming to look at the job tomorrow night to put in a transfer switch/sub panel and inlet box. I'm figuring I should be able to do the whole project for around $3,000 including the generator, give or take, depending on the unit I decide to go with.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

carl6 said:



> Unless you live in a mansion, it is rare that you would ever need more than about 10KW and that's if you run everything in your house all at the same time. Most could be very comfortable with a 5KW to 7KW generator. Plus, the bigger the genset, the more fuel it burns, and the more often it needs refueling. If on gas, you're okay as long as the gas line isn't damaged.


I don't live in a mansion, but our house is 2500 sq ft, has a 3.5 ton central air conditioner, electric double oven, two refrigerators and a deep freezer, microwave, plus a bunch of TVs and all the normal stuff a house has. We have natural gas available (gas heat and hot water) and everyone we have gotten bids from have recommended a 17kw unit. The difference between a 14kw and a 20kw unit, once you factor in installation, is $1000 or less. If we are going to spend $8000 to $9000, I don't want to have think about turning something on.

We had a 4.5kw portable through Sandy...having to turn something off before we turned something else on got pretty tired awfully quickly. Then we couldn't get gasoline (none of the stations had power). Never again.

We have lived in this house for 19 years...in the first 15 years we lost power 3 or 4 times. In the last 3 years we have lost power over a half dozen times, and for more than a week 3 times in the past 2 years. In our view, having your own standby power is no longer a luxury. Electricity has gotten like indoor plumbing...it is a requirement for modern living.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Diana C said:


> I don't live in a mansion, but our house is 2500 sq ft, has a 3.5 ton central air conditioner, electric double oven, two refrigerators and a deep freezer, microwave, plus a bunch of TVs and all the normal stuff a house has. We have natural gas available (gas heat and hot water) and everyone we have gotten bids from have recommended a 17kw unit. The difference between a 14kw and a 20kw unit, once you factor in installation, is $1000 or less. If we are going to spend $8000 to $9000, I don't want to have think about turning something on.
> 
> We had a 4.5kw portable through Sandy...having to turn something off before we turned something else on got pretty tired awfully quickly. Then we couldn't get gasoline (none of the stations had power). Never again.
> 
> We have lived in this house for 19 years...in the first 15 years we lost power 3 or 4 times. In the last 3 years we have lost power over a half dozen times, and for more than a week 3 times in the past 2 years. In our view, having your own standby power is no longer a luxury. Electricity has gotten like indoor plumbing...it is a requirement for modern living.


Love this post.

It's almost my exact situation. Same experience, and same plans.

Kohler 14RESA will most likely be the solution once I can get anyone to accurately visit and quote.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I keep forgetting about air conditioning, something almost nobody has in my neck of the woods. Also something I tend not to consider essential, but know I would feel differently if I lived where it gets hot and humid at the same time.


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

A friend of mine that lives in Florida somewhere had his house "hurricane proofed", with regards to electricity.... I only know this guy through some internet chat boxes and other sites, but apparently he had installed in his house a number of outlets with RED face plates, one near the fridge in the kitchen, one near the TV setup in the living room, one for a light in the living room, one for the water heater I believe, and probably one or two others. These outlets don't do ANYTHING unless a generator he had installed in the corner of his yard is fired up. He would then have to change his equipment from one outlet to the other by hand to make them work on the generator.

He decided to do this, because when he originally had his generator installed he had to run cords through a window into the home to power some things. It did cost him thousands of dollars to install the separate circuit in his home though, and he has YET to use it (besides testing it once or twice) in an actual disaster scenario....


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

carl6 said:


> I keep forgetting about air conditioning, something almost nobody has in my neck of the woods. Also something I tend not to consider essential, but know I would feel differently if I lived where it gets hot and humid at the same time.


AC also costs a lot of power, to keep the house cooled you would need quite a decent generator.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

maartena said:


> These outlets don't do ANYTHING unless a generator he had installed in the corner of his yard is fired up. He would then have to change his equipment from one outlet to the other by hand to make them work on the generator.


I've done that, but without the color change. I'd rather keep the systems 100% separate AND not have cords draped through the house.

I also have 15w bulbs on a generator only circuit that feeds light sockets in various places. No candles needed to get around the house.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Finally heard back from the owner of one of the recommended companies today. Good guy, but he was honest. He's buried. Totally swamped, with hundreds of requests and no time for a visit for quite some time. At least he was honest.

May be a good area for those looking for a new job opportunity. Seems like lots of latent demand if you have the right skills.


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## Combat Medic (Jul 27, 2007)

maartena said:


> AC also costs a lot of power, to keep the house cooled you would need quite a decent generator.


I've actually got a $100 windows A/C boxed up in my garage. It only draws 500watts and can keep one room nice and cool. I don't need the entire house comfortable to sleep at night.


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## Combat Medic (Jul 27, 2007)

Rich said:


> If I wasn't so lazy.... :lol:
> 
> Rich


Oh, I'm lazy too but I really hate paying somebody to do something that I can do.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> This was the unit I got from a local electrical/generator contractor. My price did not include gas work either. My gas guy told me it would run about $600.00 for everything for the gas.
> http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-O...Id=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051#.ULVFQddX80U


What did the electrical hookup cost?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

carl6 said:


> I keep forgetting about air conditioning, something almost nobody has in my neck of the woods. Also something I tend not to consider essential, but know I would feel differently if I lived where it gets hot and humid at the same time.


Had my AC go out this last summer and it was a miserable experience for a couple days. I have enough fans to cool the house, at least make it livable, but they need juice too.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Combat Medic said:


> Oh, I'm lazy too but I really hate paying somebody to do something that I can do.


Yeah, that does bother me at times. But true laziness usually prevails.... :lol:

Rich


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Rich said:


> What did the electrical hookup cost?
> 
> Rich


My guess is around $2,500 > http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=3136085#post3136085


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Rich said:


> Had my AC go out this last summer and it was a miserable experience for a couple days. I have enough fans to cool the house, at least make it livable, but they need juice too.
> 
> Rich


I bought 2 a few years ago when my Central unit was going to be replaced. They are 6,500 BTU and draw 670 watts each. I put one in the Den and one in the Bedroom and a couple of 20" box fans to help spread the cool around the rest of the house.
When hurricane Ike came thru here they were a lifesaver with my gentrator driving them. We had some cool, watched the TV, got on the computer and had cold drinks and stuff in the refrigerator. 
I use natural gas for heating, cooking, drying clothes and the hot water heater.


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## Rickt1962 (Jul 17, 2012)

jimmie57 said:


> I bought 2 a few years ago when my Central unit was going to be replaced. They are 6,500 BTU and draw 670 watts each. I put one in the Den and one in the Bedroom and a couple of 20" box fans to help spread the cool around the rest of the house.
> When hurricane Ike came thru here they were a lifesaver with my gentrator driving them. We had some cool, watched the TV, got on the computer and had cold drinks and stuff in the refrigerator.
> I use natural gas for heating, cooking, drying clothes and the hot water heater.


You might want to check on the starting capacitor's It may run at 670 but the jump in voltage will trip the breaker if it isnt set up correct with the Genny and Distance is everything ! How long the run is from the AC to the genny you will lose amps


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Rickt1962 said:


> You might want to check on the starting capacitor's It may run at 670 but the jump in voltage will trip the breaker if it isnt set up correct with the Genny and Distance is everything ! How long the run is from the AC to the genny you will lose amps


 They only start once and then never cut off. LOL. Look at my address.
One is about 20 feet and the other one was about 30 feet.

The thing I saw the most of what you describe is when I washed clothes. The washer made a noticible drop in starting the wash and then the spin cycle.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Diana C said:


> We had a 4.5kw portable through Sandy...having to turn something off before we turned something else on got pretty tired awfully quickly.


The 20kW Generac offers a Load Shedding Switch. As you turn on more loads, it sheds lower priority loads. So every circuit could technically be covered, they just can't all be on at the same time.

Mine came with the EZ Switch which gives me 16 circuits. I ended up with 15 since I needed one 240V for the basement A/C compressor. So with what we selected and a few extension cords in the house, we made it through Sandy's snowstorm just fine during a 4 day outage.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> The 20kW Generac offers a Load Shedding Switch. As you turn on more loads, it sheds lower priority loads. So every circuit could technically be covered, they just can't all be on at the same time...


Yes, that switch is included in our quotes.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

It cost me about $8500 to have a 10KW Generac installed, plus $500 for the gas line work (which the generator people would not do.) It sits on crushed gravel. Worth every penny as there have been multiple occasions when the power is out for days.


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## Combat Medic (Jul 27, 2007)

James Long said:


> I've done that, but without the color change. I'd rather keep the systems 100% separate AND not have cords draped through the house.
> 
> I also have 15w bulbs on a generator only circuit that feeds light sockets in various places. No candles needed to get around the house.


I've got a UPS in a closet that is wired into the line that runs the lights in my kitchen (one LED and one fluorescent). The UPS can run the fluorescent for 45 minutes and the LED for 240 minutes. If the lights are already on then nobody has to do anything for light.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

sbl said:


> It cost me about $8500 to have a 10KW Generac installed, plus $500 for the gas line work (which the generator people would not do.) It sits on crushed gravel. Worth every penny as there have been multiple occasions when the power is out for days.


That $8,500 include the genny?

Rich


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

I started this adventure thinking $6-7K all in for a 14KW unit. I'd die for $8,500 now. Was just outside measuring it all out. Thinking I'm now going to try and do a good chunk of this myself, with the latest indications being $10-15K from the big local shops which is beyond ridiculous.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sixto said:


> I started this adventure thinking $6-7K all in for a 14KW unit. I'd die for $8,500 now. Was just outside measuring it all out. Thinking I'm now going to try and do a good chunk of this myself, with the latest indications being $10-15K from the big local shops which is beyond ridiculous.


I'm gonna wait for quite a while until I jump in. Sandy has screwed up NJ so badly that I know I'll get taken if I buy one now. My first and last estimate was for $1,000 a KW. That's ridiculous, but not price gouging. That's their everyday price. Gold Medal, that's a company to stay away from. I know a few licensed electricians who would cut me a break if I help them and they're so busy they can't do anything for a while.

Rich


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Rich said:


> Sandy has screwed up NJ so badly that I know I'll get taken if I buy one now. My first and last estimate was for $1,000 a KW. That's ridiculous, but not price gouging.


It is a supply and demand marketplace ... and while $1k per KW may or may not be gouging, it is a price that the market will bear. If you don't pay it someone else will ... so why should anyone give a discount?

Once the demand goes down keep an eye out for overstocks and clearance units. Some of these companies are going to overestimate the demand and have extra units they will want to unload. When the demand drops the marketplace will get more competitive.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

James Long said:


> It is a supply and demand marketplace ... and while $1k per KW may or may not be gouging, it is a price that the market will bear. If you don't pay it someone else will ... so why should anyone give a discount?


The company I was referring to, Gold Medal, has a ridiculous price schedule for everything. That was their everyday price.



> Once the demand goes down keep an eye out for overstocks and clearance units. Some of these companies are going to overestimate the demand and have extra units they will want to unload. When the demand drops the marketplace will get more competitive.


Gonna take at least a year for that to happen. Everybody we know is in the process of installing them. I can wait. Or I can do it myself.

Rich


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Sixto said:


> I started this adventure thinking $6-7K all in for a 14KW unit. I'd die for $8,500 now. Was just outside measuring it all out. Thinking I'm now going to try and do a good chunk of this myself, with the latest indications being $10-15K from the big local shops which is beyond ridiculous.


Last week I contracted for a 14kw Generac with a 200 amp switch, fully installed for $6200. The gas tank and hookups cost another $550.00.

They are coming Monday to set the get the ground ready, set the pad and run the wiring, but the generator will not be delivered until the beginning of January.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> Last week I contracted for a 14kw Generac with a 200 amp switch, fully installed for $6200. The gas tank and hookups cost another $550.00.
> 
> They are coming Monday to set the get the ground ready, set the pad and run the wiring, but the generator will not be delivered until the beginning of January.


Now, that sounds like a good deal. A fair deal. Gold Medal would have charged you $14,000 to do the same job.

Rich


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

Rich said:


> That $8,500 include the genny?


Yes, and the transfer switch and all wiring. The only thing it didn't include was hooking it up to the house propane.


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## jkbird59 (Dec 22, 2006)

Here in central NJ i was quoted 7600.00 installed for a 14 kw generac .The only other cost is the permits.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jkbird59 said:


> Here in central NJ i was quoted 7600.00 installed for a 14 kw generac .The only other cost is the permits.


Who'd you get that quote from? You can PM me if you don't want to put it on the open forum.

The first quote I got was from Gold Medal and was $14,000 for that size. Send me that info and I'll jump on it. Please.

Rich


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## jkbird59 (Dec 22, 2006)

Rich said:


> Who'd you get that quote from? You can PM me if you don't want to put it on the open forum.
> 
> The first quote I got was from Gold Medal and was $14,000 for that size. Send me that info and I'll jump on it. Please.
> 
> Rich


PM sent,sorry for delay.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jkbird59 said:


> PM sent,sorry for delay.


Waiting for Art to call me back, thanx.

Rich


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## jkbird59 (Dec 22, 2006)

Great.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jkbird59 said:


> Great.


Wife just told me to pass along her thanx too.

Rich


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

There is a hidden cost that you MAY encounter in NJ. Depending on your gas meter, you may need PSE&G to replace it. They won't do that until after all the generator work is done, and they charge $600. Out of 3 contractors that gave us bids, only one mentioned this, but the others confirmed it when asked.


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## Joe166 (Jan 6, 2007)

As a seasoned veteran of many storms, I bet you guys will probably never really have as much use for your generators as you now think you will. I was without power for almost a month after Hurricane Andrew, and it was only because one of my neighbors went to the local motel where an out of state power restoration crew was resting between shifts with a fistful of $$ that we got power when we did. After that, I got a whole house generator (and 14kw is plenty for two central A/C's, all the lights and hot water heater as long as they don't all turn on at the same time). I would say that the longest I have ever had it run is two days since then. I have 70 gallons of diesel fuel on and under the trailer it is on (an installation on wheels is considered a temporary installation and has much easier zoning requirements here even though I would have to tear down my wall to move it). That will run it basically for three days (about one gph). I try to keep the tanks full and keep a couple of 5 gallon tanks full also. 

Since the Andrew debacle the power company has done a great job with hardening our power grid so we have been through a few major storms with little or no outages. Some power lines have been buried, some wooden poles have been replaced with concrete but the single most important contribution to maintaining a normal lifestyle was the County government passing a regulation that ALL gas stations (and hospitals and shelters) MUST have a standby generator in order to be in business. When all else fails, we still know we can go and buy gas and diesel fuel at the corner. Major factor.

I am still very glad I have the generator and even if it only goes on for a couple of hours due to a blown transformer, my wife is really glad we have it too. It is totally hands off. It has a big panel made in Spain in my garage that senses when the utility power goes off and thirty seconds later kicks in and if the power comes back on it shuts off in 60 seconds. It has been flawless and it "exercises" itself every Saturday morning for 15 minutes to make sure everything is ready and waiting. The guy who installed it comes by once a year and changes the oil and checks the state of the battery.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Joe166 said:


> As a seasoned veteran of many storms, I bet you guys will probably never really have as much use for your generators as you now think you will. I was without power for almost a month after Hurricane Andrew, and it was only because one of my neighbors went to the local motel where an out of state power restoration crew was resting between shifts with a fistful of $$ that we got power when we did. After that,


I was down there during Andrew and I definitely can confirm that statement. But, since then I have moved up to Maine. We loose power a lot more up here than we did in Florida (besides hurricanes), especially in the winter (ice storms, snow knocking branches down on wires). Unlike Florida most of the electrical lines are on poles, not underground, which makes them more prone to damage.

Today outages are lasting a lot longer than they have in the past, due to the reduction of personnel on repair crews. The crew that handles our area is only half as large as it was 10 years ago.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

I have two houses. My "main" house is in a suburban part of a city (small by most state standards, but big for NH). I've lived here since 1990 and, until the "Snowtober" storm of 2011 the longest we had been without power was about 4-5 hours (though in some earlier storms other parts of the city had been out for a week or more.) But I lost power for 6 days in that storm and finally bought a portable generator and wired up a transfer switch. As I tell my neighbors, this guarantees that we won't lose power for another 20 years. (Neighbors on both sides also have generators.) But I feel better being prepared should it happen again.

I also have a small house in a decidedly rural town. Power goes out there a lot, for days at a time, and I found myself trekking out there to run propane heaters and keep the pipes from freezing. Finally I broke down and had a standby generator installed. For each of three years running, there have been multi-day power outages there and the generator kept the house alive in freezing temperatures. Worth every penny.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

It just gets better and better ... also need a gas meter upgrade. Only have 200 cfh meter now, 14kw generator needs 193 all by itself. Project gets bigger and bigger and ...


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Sixto said:


> It just gets better and better ... also need a gas meter upgrade. Only have 200 cfh meter now, 14kw generator needs 193 all by itself. Project gets bigger and bigger and ...


I saw myself going down this same road last year after the freak October snowstorm left me without power for a week. I was gonna go whole-hog, but then took a step back and realized that this was a freak thing and that I could get away with much less.

So I went with a 7000 watt portable Gas driven generator and hooked a 220v power inlet box to the back of the house. The total cost was about $800 for everything. I lost power for 10 days during sandy, and while it was not as convenient as a home-standby, my life was 90% normal with lights, hot showers, TV and of course cold freezer and fridge.

So I suggest anybody looking to get a generator stop and think how much you may need it, and how much is inconvenient for you. You may find you can get by with alot less.


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## brad2388 (Dec 24, 2011)

Generac def. rules the market in home standby units for sure. They come prepackaged with the transfer switch and the generator. There just not made to run for days and days. But the automatic feature is nice when its snowing outside and freezing cold!


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Tom_S said:


> I saw myself going down this same road last year after the freak October snowstorm left me without power for a week. I was gonna go whole-hog, but then took a step back and realized that this was a freak thing and that I could get away with much less.
> 
> So I went with a 7000 watt portable Gas driven generator and hooked a 220v power inlet box to the back of the house. The total cost was about $800 for everything. I lost power for 10 days during sandy, and while it was not as convenient as a home-standby, my life was 90% normal with lights, hot showers, TV and of course cold freezer and fridge.
> 
> So I suggest anybody looking to get a generator stop and think how much you may need it, and how much is inconvenient for you. You may find you can get by with alot less.


Yep, exactly. Been thinking it all through. Thinking maybe a smaller quiet Honda inverter-type, nice clean power, and a transfer switch. Haven't decided yet, but it's somewhat a hobby right now to figure this all out, with no need to rush into anything. I'm certainly learning a lot as I talk to generator suppliers, my plumber guy, an electrician, and the local building inspector.


----------



## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm putting in a 10kw Generac with service disconnect 200 amp switch and load shedding for just over $6000, here in NW NJ. I found an online supplier for the generator just before they went to a long back order, delivered yesterday. The generator, switch, battery and load shed modules total $3200, with free shipping. Plumber, electrician, permits and landscaping make up the rest.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Diana C said:


> There is a hidden cost that you MAY encounter in NJ. Depending on your gas meter, you may need PSE&G to replace it. They won't do that until after all the generator work is done, and they charge $600. Out of 3 contractors that gave us bids, only one mentioned this, but the others confirmed it when asked.


Guess I'll have to call up PSE&G and see if I've got one that needs replacement. I think they replaced mine a few years ago.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Joe166 said:


> *As a seasoned veteran of many storms, I bet you guys will probably never really have as much use for your generators as you now think you will.* I was without power for almost a month after Hurricane Andrew, and it was only because one of my neighbors went to the local motel where an out of state power restoration crew was resting between shifts with a fistful of $$ that we got power when we did. After that, I got a whole house generator (and 14kw is plenty for two central A/C's, all the lights and hot water heater as long as they don't all turn on at the same time). I would say that the longest I have ever had it run is two days since then. I have 70 gallons of diesel fuel on and under the trailer it is on (an installation on wheels is considered a temporary installation and has much easier zoning requirements here even though I would have to tear down my wall to move it). That will run it basically for three days (about one gph). I try to keep the tanks full and keep a couple of 5 gallon tanks full also.
> 
> Since the Andrew debacle the power company has done a great job with hardening our power grid so we have been through a few major storms with little or no outages. Some power lines have been buried, some wooden poles have been replaced with concrete but the single most important contribution to maintaining a normal lifestyle was the County government passing a regulation that ALL gas stations (and hospitals and shelters) MUST have a standby generator in order to be in business. When all else fails, we still know we can go and buy gas and diesel fuel at the corner. Major factor.
> 
> I am still very glad I have the generator and even if it only goes on for a couple of hours due to a blown transformer, my wife is really glad we have it too. It is totally hands off. It has a big panel made in Spain in my garage that senses when the utility power goes off and thirty seconds later kicks in and if the power comes back on it shuts off in 60 seconds. It has been flawless and it "exercises" itself every Saturday morning for 15 minutes to make sure everything is ready and waiting. The guy who installed it comes by once a year and changes the oil and checks the state of the battery.


That's the thing that's got me worried, but the weather's changing so much that I'd rather be safe than sorry. Some parts of NJ and NY still don't have power after Sandy.

I've also got some dopey neighbors who can't see the reasoning behind the power company wanting to trim the trees back from the power lines. Huge trees hovering over power lines is a recipe for disaster, but they don't listen.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sixto said:


> It just gets better and better ... also need a gas meter upgrade. Only have 200 cfh meter now, 14kw generator needs 193 all by itself. Project gets bigger and bigger and ...


Just checked mine and it's 275CFH. I'll probably need a new one. Yeah, better and better. Thanx for the info.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom_S said:


> I saw myself going down this same road last year after the freak October snowstorm left me without power for a week. I was gonna go whole-hog, but then took a step back and realized that this was a freak thing and that I could get away with much less.
> 
> So I went with a 7000 watt portable Gas driven generator and hooked a 220v power inlet box to the back of the house. The total cost was about $800 for everything. I lost power for 10 days during sandy, and while it was not as convenient as a home-standby, my life was 90% normal with lights, hot showers, TV and of course cold freezer and fridge.
> 
> So I suggest anybody looking to get a generator stop and think how much you may need it, and how much is inconvenient for you. You may find you can get by with alot less.


What you did wouldn't have worked here. No gas. No gas stations with gennys of their own, can you believe that? That ought to be mandatory, I think.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

brad2388 said:


> Generac def. rules the market in home standby units for sure. They come prepackaged with the transfer switch and the generator. *There just not made to run for days and days.* But the automatic feature is nice when its snowing outside and freezing cold!


What!? Why not? What's the purpose if not to run for days on end? It's been over a month since Sandy and people here still don't have power in some places.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sixto said:


> Yep, exactly. Been thinking it all through. Thinking maybe a smaller quiet Honda inverter-type, nice clean power, and a transfer switch. Haven't decided yet, but it's somewhat a hobby right now to figure this all out, with no need to rush into anything. I'm certainly learning a lot as I talk to generator suppliers, my plumber guy, an electrician, and the local building inspector.


I'm doing the same thing. The only thing that stops me from just buying another portable genny (I have two CB boxes that I can feed separately) is the gasoline thing. Good learning experience, tho.

Rich


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## trdrjeff (Dec 3, 2007)

Aren't most of your weather situations you will need this for give you a decent lead time to accumulate gas? 

I know the smaller Honda Inverter series are quite efficient on gas, but the volume needed for whole house operation will likely require a pretty good amount for 4-7 days...

I have seen kits for conversion of the Honda's also


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

trdrjeff said:


> Aren't most of your weather situations you will need this for give you a decent lead time to accumulate gas?


No. Sandy certainly didn't. Nobody expected what we got.

Rich


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

The Generacs (and other standby generators) can run for days and days. It is recommended that you stop them every day or so and check the oil level.

Also, while many Generacs look the same from the outside, I can see definite differences "under the hood" between the models sold at Home Depot and the one I got.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Rich said:


> I'm doing the same thing. The only thing that stops me from just buying another portable genny (I have two CB boxes that I can feed separately) is the gasoline thing. Good learning experience, tho.
> 
> Rich


Yep, I change my mind about once a day. The Honda EU6500IS seems appealing with a Tri-Fuel Kit, but then I wonder about warranty, and my latest thought is that if we get hit in the middle of the summer then I want the A/C, so no point in having great power but the house is hot. Yes, could run window A/C units, but then that adds another layer of complexity. I like the Honda inverter type, because my APC UPS' didn't like the generator power source from my neighbor during Sandy/Athena, and I have 9 APC UPS' in the house for every electronics device, including all the DirecTV gear.

Did talk to the town building inspector today, and left the conversation feeling better about the whole home unit, but candidly, I do change my mind daily, as I think through the pro's and con's of each option.

For me, it's Kohler 14RESAL vs Honda EU6500iS.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

sbl said:


> The Generacs (and other standby generators) can run for days and days. It is recommended that you stop them every day or so and check the oil level.


Everybody seems to be leaning toward or has a Generac, so I guess I'll be looking for one.



> Also, while many Generacs look the same from the outside, I can see definite differences "under the hood" between the models sold at Home Depot and the one I got.


I'd expect that.

Rich


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## trdrjeff (Dec 3, 2007)

Rich said:


> No. Sandy certainly didn't. Nobody expected what we got.
> 
> Rich


huh? I heard about this "Perfect Storm" possibility days before it made landfall and I'm in Sunny Socal...

Obviously no one knows for certain where a storm will strike or the severity from county to county, but you have a pretty good idea if you are in the path days before.


----------



## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Tom_S said:


> I was gonna go whole-hog, but then took a step back and realized that this was a freak thing and that I could get away with much less.


Couldn't agree more.....or should I say, my wife couldn't agree more? :lol:

Actually, an unreasonaly high quote got me rethinking the NG standby generator install I was considering. Then, after getting another quote for $3,500 less which I was ready to jump on, my wife reminded me that it was probably still overkill considering the fact that we've never lost power for any significant length of time before Sandy and we've been in our house for 25 years.



Tom_S said:


> So I went with a 7000 watt portable Gas driven generator and hooked a 220v power inlet box to the back of the house.


I'm pursuing something very similar to this now along with an http://www.interlockkit.com/. A simple device costing much less than a transfer switch while offering greater flexibility, i.e., your entire panel of circuit breakers becomes available to you, unlike a sub panel transfer switch. I already confirmed with my town building inspector that these are approved and my electrician has ordered it to be installed along with an inlet box. All I need to to now is decide which portable generator to go with.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

That's just inexperience speaking. I start accumulating gas when we hit the 5 day cone. I put stabilizer in it, and if I don't use it, it keeps for a year, where it then starts going into my Jeep. Gas stations down here are now required to have backup power, but not until we had already been through 4 hurricanes in a row across 2 seasons.

I have a HomeDepot Generac that has run 24x7 for me through 4 direct hits. One of those times it ran for 6 weeks straight.

I agree with some of the above sentiments - not only is a smaller generator cheaper to buy, it's cheaper to run and maintain. I'd love to have a whole home, but even in SE Florida, I can't justify the costs.



Rich said:


> No. Sandy certainly didn't. Nobody expected what we got.
> 
> Rich


----------



## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rich said:


> What you did wouldn't have worked here. No gas. No gas stations with gennys of their own, can you believe that? That ought to be mandatory, I think.
> 
> Rich


I agree. It is mandatory in Floridan where we used to live. They required it after a few hurricanes had the area closed down for a few weeks. It should be mandatory everywhere.


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

I have a 5500 W portable genny. I wish there was some way I could quiet it down a bit. I would make a custom exhaust, but I don't know what would work on this small of an engine.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

By the way, those of you with portable generators who want to use them in rain/snow should look into GenTent.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

sbl said:


> By the way, those of you with portable generators who want to use them in rain/snow should look into GenTent.


Funny, I just found that site earlier today.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

Turns out that they're less than an hour from me in NH. I received my GenTent earlier this week but haven't set it up yet.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Plywood box with fan and exhaust. Cuts it down right nicely.



alnielsen said:


> I have a 5500 W portable genny. I wish there was some way I could quiet it down a bit. I would make a custom exhaust, but I don't know what would work on this small of an engine.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

trdrjeff said:


> huh? I heard about this "Perfect Storm" possibility days before it made landfall and I'm in Sunny Socal...


Trust me, nobody expected what we got. And the really strange part of Sandy? It could have been a lot worse if it's eye had entered Raritan Bay. Unimaginably worse.



> Obviously no one knows for certain where a storm will strike or the severity from county to county, but you have a pretty good idea if you are in the path days before.


Nobody had any idea it was gonna be anywhere near this bad. Please believe that.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Vin said:


> Couldn't agree more.....or should I say, my wife couldn't agree more? :lol:
> 
> Actually, an unreasonaly high quote got me rethinking the NG standby generator install I was considering. Then, after getting another quote for $3,500 less which I was ready to jump on, my wife reminded me that it was probably still overkill considering the fact that we've never lost power for any significant length of time before Sandy and we've been in our house for 25 years.
> 
> I'm pursuing something very similar to this now along with an http://www.interlockkit.com/. A simple device costing much less than a transfer switch while offering greater flexibility, i.e., your entire panel of circuit breakers becomes available to you, unlike a sub panel transfer switch. I already confirmed with my town building inspector that these are approved and my electrician has ordered it to be installed along with an inlet box. All I need to to now is decide which portable generator to go with.


I could do what you're considering myself, but to what end? Still need gasoline. That's the real beauty of the NG gennys, we've never lost our gas supply.

Perhaps Sandy is the last we'll see of this type of storm in our lifetimes, but it also might be the precursor to even worse storms in the near future. NYC is actually thinking of building tidal barriers such as London has and the Netherlands have. They're not planning on spending that kind of money on a whim.

I really think a reasonably priced NG genny is the right way to go. Now I have to figure out just how large a genny I need. Not hard to do, just add up all your absolutely necessary wattages and add a bit more for "luxuries" and you'll come up with a reasonable figure.

Rich


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I dunno about that. I sat in my chair and watched that bass-turd churn by offshore of my house in S. Fl. and felt sorry for those of you up there. It was big, slow, and colliding with another front. It was going to be bad.



Rich said:


> Nobody had any idea it was gonna be anywhere near this bad. Please believe that.
> 
> Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> *That's just inexperience speaking.* I start accumulating gas when we hit the 5 day cone. I put stabilizer in it, and if I don't use it, it keeps for a year, where it then starts going into my Jeep. Gas stations down here are now required to have backup power, but not until we had already been through 4 hurricanes in a row across 2 seasons.
> 
> I have a HomeDepot Generac that has run 24x7 for me through 4 direct hits. One of those times it ran for 6 weeks straight.
> 
> I agree with some of the above sentiments - not only is a smaller generator cheaper to buy, it's cheaper to run and maintain. I'd love to have a whole home, but even in SE Florida, I can't justify the costs.


How could you possibly know what my experience with hurricanes is?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> I agree. It is mandatory in Floridan where we used to live. They required it after a few hurricanes had the area closed down for a few weeks. It should be mandatory everywhere.


I have not heard one whisper about doing that in NJ. After all the gas lines, all the fist fights on the lines, after people going without water or being able to flush a toilet, not one whisper.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

alnielsen said:


> I have a 5500 W portable genny. I wish there was some way I could quiet it down a bit. I would make a custom exhaust, but I don't know what would work on this small of an engine.


I have the same size portable genny. Bought it at Costco. Couldn't get it all together because it didn't come with all the parts. Finally got the parts from the manufacturer and turned it on. This one is REALLY LOUD. My fault for buying a Honeywell and buying it from Costco. Real piece of crap.

You can buy quieter portables, they just cost a bit more. I should have gone with a Honda.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

sbl said:


> By the way, those of you with portable generators who want to use them in rain/snow should look into GenTent.


Huh. Good idea. Normally, I'd hang a tarp between trees and put the genny under it. But that's pretty neat. Thanx for the link.

Rich


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

sbl said:


> By the way, those of you with portable generators who want to use them in rain/snow should look into GenTent.


I actually purchased one of those portable popup tents like you use tailgating. I was amazed how many people don't realize you need this. I just told them, "well, if you like messing around with 30amp 220v cords soaking wet, be my guest!"


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

From your comments regarding hurricanes  They have been a way of life for me for many years.



Rich said:


> How could you possibly know what my experience with hurricanes is?
> 
> Rich


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Vin said:


> I'm pursuing something very similar to this now along with an http://www.interlockkit.com/. A simple device costing much less than a transfer switch while offering greater flexibility, i.e., your entire panel of circuit breakers becomes available to you, unlike a sub panel transfer switch. I already confirmed with my town building inspector that these are approved and my electrician has ordered it to be installed along with an inlet box. All I need to to now is decide which portable generator to go with.


This is pretty much exactly my setup. Just have to be smart what you want to use. I did it for 10 days with only 1 incident. My wife tried to use the in-wall heater in the bathroom. All it did was trip the breaker on the generator. 1 push and back in business.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

And in case anybody cares, I went with the Powerhorse 7000 from Northerntool. No complaints.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> From your comments regarding hurricanes  They have been a way of life for me for many years.


Then you misread my comments. Ever been in the eye of a hurricane?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom_S said:


> I actually purchased one of those portable popup tents like you use tailgating. I was amazed how many people don't realize you need this. I just told them, "well, if you like messing around with 30amp 220v cords soaking wet, be my guest!"


I use GFI adapters on my genny. Nothing to fear from wet weather. But the tent does seem like a good idea.

Rich


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Rich said:


> I use GFI adapters on my genny. Nothing to fear from wet weather. But the tent does seem like a good idea.
> 
> Rich


That's smart. But being dry is preferable. Something about standing in pouring rain plugging in, or otherwise messing with electrical connections, does NOT appeal to me. And I think the generator requires it.


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## Joe166 (Jan 6, 2007)

After a while the noise from the generators is kind of soothing, but I will admit that the semi permanent standby generator that I now have, in it's silenced enclosure, with a fairly large muffler is really quiet and quite a difference.

Maybe I was just going deaf. A very real possibility. Filling that tiny gas tank in the middle of the night, (in the dark) and waiting a while for it to cool off got old very fast. That was my main complaint about the smaller gen units I used back in the day. I was always afraid I would get careless and spill gas on something hot. I also didn't really like storing many gallons of gasoline around the house, even in the garage. Now I keep the diesel tanks topped off so I can refuel in the daylight and I have three days to do so. I also don't find as much angst with the diesel fuel which is mostly kept under the generator in two attached tanks. If it goes, the corner of my yard is history, but not my house or anyone I care about.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

More than once.



Rich said:


> Then you misread my comments. Ever been in the eye of a hurricane?
> 
> Rich


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

Vin said:


> Actually, an unreasonaly high quote got me rethinking the NG standby generator install I was considering. Then, after getting another quote for $3,500 less which I was ready to jump on, my wife reminded me that it was probably still overkill considering the fact that we've never lost power for any significant length of time before Sandy and we've been in our house for 25 years...


That's what we said after Irene knocked out power for 3 days. Then we had the October 2011 snowstorm that knocked out power for 5 days, and we got a 4kW portable generator. Now Sandy knocked out power for 8 days and, after we went through the 15 gallons of gasoline we had stockpiled, we couldn't get gas to keep it going. This is after losing power for no more than 12 hours in the prior 18 years we have lived in this house.

We will make the deal for a 17kW whole house Generac next week...just giving the local dealer the opportunity to match the quote we have from a dealer an hour away.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Getting clearer and clearer each day ... current thinking ...

Honda EU6500iS (inverter generator with perfect power - no issue with UPS')
Tri-fuel Kit from Central Maine Diesel (will hook to natural gas)
Natural Gas port at back of the house (plumber will install)
Power Inlet Port at back of house, wired to Circuit Breaker box
Interlock Kit for my Murray Circuit Breaker box to swap between main & generator power

This will give me clean power to all electronics including DirecTV, sourced from natural gas, but also flexible to also do gasoline or propane if ever needed. Also can take it with me if we ever move, and will use window a/c if needed. Uses between 67-95 CFH for Gas, vesus 93-193 CFH for whole-home.

May change my mind again, but refining this to something doable.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Also going to get a meter like the TED unit to monitor my current watt usage before making any final decision.

Have been using the Kill-A-Watt unit for measuring outlets, but about to pick up a whole home meter like the TED.


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

Sixto said:


> Getting clearer and clearer each day ... current thinking ...
> 
> Honda EU6500iS (inverter generator with perfect power - no issue with UPS')
> Tri-fuel Kit from Central Maine Diesel (will hook to natural gas)
> ...


NG & propane would be a good choice. They don't break down during periods where your not using the genny, like gasoline does. And, they don't pollute the oil with blow by while it is running. You can go for a longer period of time between oil changes.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Sixto" said:


> Getting clearer and clearer each day ... current thinking ...
> 
> Honda EU6500iS (inverter generator with perfect power - no issue with UPS')
> Tri-fuel Kit from Central Maine Diesel (will hook to natural gas)
> ...


My dad picked up one of the Honda eu6500 and they are extremely nice. Extremely quite which is important IMHO and very efficient. Also fairly small, and is really an enclosed style which is also nice. Natural gas is not really a smart move out here in California, unless you are on a big ranch and have your own giant propane tank.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

trdrjeff said:


> Aren't most of your weather situations you will need this for give you a decent lead time to accumulate gas?


Not for the Derecho last June. Came out of no where and traveled 700 miles (from Chicago to south of DC) in 10 hours. We had one local station that had power (and gas) so one day I waited in line for gas and the next day my neighbor waited. At least no one here gouged.

Bought the 17kW Generac 2 days in from HD. Just rigged it enough to backfeed my panels to get us through then installed it properly. It has been used twice since then, once for a 7-8 hour outage due to copper thieves and then for 4 days during snowstorm Sandy.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> My dad picked up one of the Honda eu6500 and they are extremely nice. Extremely quite which is important IMHO and very efficient. Also fairly small, and is really an enclosed style which is also nice. Natural gas is not really a smart move out here in California, unless you are on a big ranch and have your own giant propane tank.


Yep, as with most things, analyze and analyze until I zero in on the answer, and the EU6500iS is becoming clearer and clearer, been getting up to speed on all the youtube info tonight.

The EU6500iS seems to have a lot going for it. Small. Quiet. Inverter with clean power which is huge because of my lousy experience with UPS' during Sandy, I'd rather not need to touch any of the UPS' when on generator power. I'll be able to patch right into the circuit breaker box with the Interlock Kit. I probably only really need a few thousand watts anyway, and the natural gas load will be much more manageable with the smaller unit. I won't need to find a spot in the backyard for a permanent whole home unit, nor need a maintenance contract, and won't need to deal with a long trench to run the gas and electric, and all the building inspector stuff. I'll be able to take this all with me if we ever move, and I'll probably save several thousand $, though the EU6500iS unit is actually more expensive then the 14kw Kohler, but again the inverter is something I desire.

My only worry at the moment is the warranty status with the after market Tri-fuel add-on, and also the more I think about this tonight if I go with the local Honda guy (who I like) I'll need to pay sales tax on the $4K for the Honda, but I guess it is what it is.

Tomorrow's another day, and more analyzing.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

I use an EU6500 and will totally recommend it. It runs the whole house with no issues, while the AC is not an option where I live that is not a big deal. The only time i have to be careful is when I am running water as the well pump takes about 40% of the 6500s output. If you do have any high start load appliances you do need to shut off the auto throttle as the throttle cant respond fast enough to the start load and it may kill the engine


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Sixto said:


> Inverter with clean power which is huge because of my lousy experience with UPS' during Sandy, I'd rather not need to touch any of the UPS' when on generator power.


I don't think this would be a problem with a higher end generator that is properly regulated. The low cost units you get at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc., tend to run a bit high in both voltage and frequency, which plays hell with UPS' running off them. A quality "whole home" generator should be a lot cleaner with regard to the supplied power - proper voltage and frequency - and UPS running off them should be no problem.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

"carl6" said:


> I don't think this would be a problem with a higher end generator that is properly regulated. The low cost units you get at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc., tend to run a bit high in both voltage and frequency, which plays hell with UPS' running off them. A quality "whole home" generator should be a lot cleaner with regard to the supplied power - proper voltage and frequency - and UPS running off them should be no problem.


Yep Carl, if I decide on a non whole home then the inverter type is the only option I'd consider.


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## brad2388 (Dec 24, 2011)

Yea also the good whole home gens have electronic governers on the engine and solid state voltage regulators in them to provide you 60 cycles and 240 volts all the time. Full load or no load.

The generac and kohler home standy by stuff has solid state voltage regulators but theg have mechanical governers and run at 3600 rpm. Hince why the honda inverter runs so good. Electronic governer.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom_S said:


> That's smart. But being dry is preferable. Something about standing in pouring rain plugging in, or otherwise messing with electrical connections, does NOT appeal to me. And I think the generator requires it.


Hence the tarp I use strung between trees. Still, I trust the GFIs completely and there are not many other electrical devices I can say that about. In fact, I can't think of any that are as reliable as GFIs.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> More than once.


Spend time on a Can?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sixto said:


> Yep, as with most things, analyze and analyze until I zero in on the answer, and the EU6500iS is becoming clearer and clearer, been getting up to speed on all the youtube info tonight.
> 
> The EU6500iS seems to have a lot going for it. Small. Quiet. Inverter with clean power which is huge because of my lousy experience with UPS' during Sandy, I'd rather not need to touch any of the UPS' when on generator power. I'll be able to patch right into the circuit breaker box with the Interlock Kit. I probably only really need a few thousand watts anyway, and the natural gas load will be much more manageable with the smaller unit. I won't need to find a spot in the backyard for a permanent whole home unit, nor need a maintenance contract, and won't need to deal with a long trench to run the gas and electric, and all the building inspector stuff. I'll be able to take this all with me if we ever move, and I'll probably save several thousand $, though the EU6500iS unit is actually more expensive then the 14kw Kohler, but again the inverter is something I desire.
> 
> ...


Please keep analyzing, saves us the agita of dealing with unknowns. Couple questions: Which TED are you buying? The $239 model looks interesting.

Did you ask the Honda dealer if that after market device was something they offered or would install? I went thru a similar thing a couple years ago when we bought a Mercury Milan for my wife's commute. Didn't come with a remote start option, but they'd install one for $479 (or $499, can't remember). When I told the salesman I could have one installed locally for ~ $200, he told me the warranty would be invalidated if I did that. Kind of doubted that, but didn't feel like arguing. Wish I would have spent that money for them to install it, my wife's been *****ing about not having it since she got the car.

One more question: how long is the warranty on the Honda?

Rich


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Haven't decided on the TED yet. Also saw another unit, need to decide. Will post what I get. 

The local Honda dealer said that he would install the Tri Fuel kit, but I need to go down and confirm. All conversation up to now has been over the phone. 

Honda warranty is 3 years.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

One opinion is that a manual full load transfer switch is better, but I may still go with the Interlock Kit, it's just so simple, and seems to be just as safe. With the transfer switch I'd need to re-route the main house 240v service and not sure that I want to do that for little benefit.

Also some thought that I could run the generator within the existing natural gas meter, by just not using everything at the same time, but I may do the upgrade any way. It may depend on the cost, which I don't yet have a quote for.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

I fitted the GenTent on my Briggs+Stratton today. Very nice design.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Rich said:


> ... Which TED are you buying? ...


Leaning towards TED 5000-G. Just also found a few great looking iPhone Apps for TED.

And convinced of portable inverter generator more then ever now. Also added one more item to my pro's column ... thinking it's much better to be able to store a portable unit in the garage and keep it out of the weather while not in use, vs whole house standby that will get weathered over the years.

Purchase list:

Portable Invertor Generator
Tri-Fuel Kit
GenTent or build some cover off house
4 prong 240v electric cable for generator to inlet port
4-prong 30A inlet port (backyard wall)
10-guage wire from inlet port to electric panel
30A backfeed circuit breaker (takes up two slots)
InterLock Kit for electric panel
Natural gas line outside - piping & gas port (backyard wall)
Natural gas hose for generator to gas connector
Possible gas meter upgrade
Portable Inverter with Tri-Fuel connector - Pro's:

Small
Quiet (50-60db)
Clean power (UPS' will be fine)
Easy maintenance, no need for generator home maintenance contract
When used with InterLock Kit, should be able to power all of the essentials in the house with no extension cords
Natural gas, no need for gasoline if gasoline is constrained, but also still could be powered by gasoline or propane in case of a natural disaster that disables the natural gas line
Portable, can be stored in the garage and protected from weather when not in use
Portable, can take with me if ever I move, and no need to permanently connect to home and avoids any construction and permits that may be needed for large Generac/Kohler unit. Also no need to permanently dedicate backyard space.
Much less natural gas needed, less then 100CFH, as compared to big whole home unit
Less overall $, both upfront and ongoing
This is all one person's opinion ... for this one home owner situation ... certainly understand that others may want a true whole home permanently mounted automatic standby unit.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sixto said:


> Haven't decided on the TED yet. Also saw another unit, need to decide. Will post what I get.


I really got a thing for meters. I do wish I hadn't seen that. Now I want one. I think I only saw 2 Teds that were for single phase.



> The local Honda dealer said that he would install the Tri Fuel kit, but I need to go down and confirm. All conversation up to now has been over the phone.


Yeah, you need that in writing. Suppose the guy that told you that died. I have over $10,000 in plastic fencing around my property and the guy that installed it all guarantees his work for life. Unfortunately, and very sadly, I really like this guy, he has cancer, so the lifetime warranty dies with him and his company when he passes. Seemed pretty healthy the last time I saw him.



> Honda warranty is 3 years.


We used to use them in our plant and most contractors that we employed used them. Very dependable.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sixto said:


> One opinion is that a manual full load transfer switch is better, but I may still go with the Interlock Kit, it's just so simple, and seems to be just as safe. With the transfer switch I'd need to re-route the main house 240v service and not sure that I want to do that for little benefit.


Bit of a PITA, but with PVC rather than conduit, it's much easier. Thing about that interlock kit is you have to be there. My main concern during storms is my three sump pumps. I have two fireplaces and access to a gully full of blown down trees, so heating the house isn't a problem. A/C is another story, both my wife and son have terrible allergies and we need the A/C for health reasons.



> Also some thought that I could run the generator within the existing natural gas meter, by just not using everything at the same time, but I may do the upgrade any way. It may depend on the cost, which I don't yet have a quote for.


I kinda doubt the code inspector would let you do that. I know our power company wouldn't.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sixto said:


> Leaning towards TED 5000-G. Just also found a few great looking iPhone Apps for TED.


I think I'd go with the 5000-C. For $40 more it looks neater.

If you do go with a portable genny, what kind of disconnect do you get for the NG?

Rich


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Rich said:


> I think I'd go with the 5000-C. For $40 more it looks neater.
> 
> If you do go with a portable genny, what kind of disconnect do you get for the NG?


The more I investigate the TED, it does have it's issues. It uses X10 to communicate and I see lots of comments of people with issues, may need inline filter to eliminate interference, not sold on it yet.

Now leaning towards getting the inverter working first with gasoline, test everything out with inlet/wiring/interlock, and then after success then convert to tri-fuel and do that myself which will allow me to understand the conversion, test everything before any modification, and have the option to switch back if I need to since I'll have both methods tested.

Now have everything figured out mostly, expect this will take a couple of months, hopefully no storms in the meantime!


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## jkbird59 (Dec 22, 2006)

here is a link for winco generators.they make tri- fuel gennys .

http://www.wincogen.com/tri_fuel_generators/


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

jkbird59 said:


> here is a link for winco generators.they make tri- fuel gennys .
> 
> http://www.wincogen.com/tri_fuel_generators/


Personally ruled them out due to noise (72 dba) and non-inverter, but others may be interested.


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Rich said:


> I could do what you're considering myself, but to what end? Still need gasoline. That's the real beauty of the NG gennys, we've never lost our gas supply.
> 
> *Perhaps Sandy is the last we'll see of this type of storm in our lifetimes, but it also might be the precursor to even worse storms in the near future.* NYC is actually thinking of building tidal barriers such as London has and the Netherlands have. They're not planning on spending that kind of money on a whim.
> 
> ...


*Yes, this is the $64,000 question.*



Diana C said:


> That's what we said after Irene knocked out power for 3 days. Then we had the October 2011 snowstorm that knocked out power for 5 days, and we got a 4kW portable generator. Now Sandy knocked out power for 8 days and, after we went through the 15 gallons of gasoline we had stockpiled, we couldn't get gas to keep it going. This is after losing power for no more than 12 hours in the prior 18 years we have lived in this house.
> 
> We will make the deal for a 17kW whole house Generac next week...just giving the local dealer the opportunity to match the quote we have from a dealer an hour away.


I can't argue with this logic or Rich's but based on my personal experience I'm just _'not there yet' _so I will take Tom's approach for now....only time will tell if I need to take it to the next level. :grin:



Tom_S said:


> I saw myself going down this same road last year after the freak October snowstorm left me without power for a week. I was gonna go whole-hog, but then took a step back and realized that this was a freak thing and that I could get away with much less.
> 
> So I went with a 7000 watt portable Gas driven generator and hooked a 220v power inlet box to the back of the house. The total cost was about $800 for everything. I lost power for 10 days during sandy, and while it was not as convenient as a home-standby, my life was 90% normal with lights, hot showers, TV and of course cold freezer and fridge.
> 
> So I suggest anybody looking to get a generator stop and think how much you may need it, and how much is inconvenient for you. You may find you can get by with alot less.


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

Vin said:


> *Yes, this is the $64,000 question.*


Any one in the northern 2/3rds of the country, as long as they have overhead power lines, has a chance on seeing a moderate power disruption. Mainly due to ice storms. Then theirs always the more local disruptions due to a transformer blowing out or a tree limb knocking out a line. These are usually fixed within 24 hrs, but it will be nice to have the luxury to mostly go on without feeling the affects.


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## BlackDynamite (Jun 5, 2007)

Sixto;3143158 said:


> Leaning towards TED 5000-G. Just also found a few great looking iPhone Apps for TED.
> 
> And convinced of portable inverter generator more then ever now. Also added one more item to my pro's column ... thinking it's much better to be able to store a portable unit in the garage and keep it out of the weather while not in use, vs whole house standby that will get weathered over the years.
> 
> ...


This sounds pretty much perfect to me. Thanks for doing all the leg work!

How much does this cost? Do you have links to where it can be purchased?


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Sixto" said:


> Leaning towards TED 5000-G. Just also found a few great looking iPhone Apps for TED.
> 
> And convinced of portable inverter generator more then ever now. Also added one more item to my pro's column ... thinking it's much better to be able to store a portable unit in the garage and keep it out of the weather while not in use, vs whole house standby that will get weathered over the years.
> 
> ...


I haven't looked over your list in detail, but I have to say, I think you might want to think about the interlock kit a second time. With it, you won't have a way to reliably know your power came back on without shutting stuff off. Its forcing you to choose all or nothing. I think the unit that someone else linked to earlier may be a better solution. One of those that can drive most circuits but not all would allow you to pick and choose some and leave others untouched. Plus its also completely fool proof as well so you never have to worry about a line being fed by both sources at the same time, just as the interlock does.

Here is the link he posted, and it looks like they have several different products that are in the same category.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?51410C

Just thought you might want to look at it...

I'll have to research this whole tri fuel thing. Guess I'm not sure who that works with a regular generator, and I wonder what kind of affect it has on a units noise levels.


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

alnielsen said:


> Any one in the northern 2/3rds of the country, as long as they have overhead power lines,* has a chance *on seeing a moderate power disruption. Mainly due to ice storms. Then theirs always the more local disruptions due to a transformer blowing out or a tree limb knocking out a line. These are usually fixed within 24 hrs, but it will be nice to have the luxury to mostly go on without feeling the affects.


Having lived in NJ my whole life I can attest to everything you've stated but *having a chance *is not the same as *what typically occurs *at any given location, which is what my course of action is being based on.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Vin said:


> Having lived in NJ my whole life I can attest to everything you've stated but *having a chance *is not the same as *what typically occurs *at any given location, which is what my course of action is being based on.


Yeah, exactly. It is natural to freak-out when such a major disaster occurs, I know a few people that went all-out and spent thousands and that's fine. In probably 99% of the outages I think a smaller 7000 watt portable will more than suffice.

I didn't account for gas being so scarce, I always figured If I had a few days worth that was more than enough, and it would have been fine except for the hundreds of people from NJ coming to my small town and draining our local station(s). But this was a storm that NEVER happened before. I consider that happening again very remote.


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> I haven't looked over your list in detail, but I have to say, I think you might want to think about the interlock kit a second time. With it, you won't have a way to reliably know your power came back on without shutting stuff off. *Its forcing you to choose all or nothing.* I think the unit that someone else linked to earlier may be a better solution. One of those that can drive most circuits but not all would allow you to pick and choose some and leave others untouched. Plus its also completely fool proof as well so you never have to worry about a line being fed by both sources at the same time, just as the interlock does.
> 
> Here is the link he posted, and it looks like they have several different products that are in the same category.
> 
> http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?51410C


The http://www.interlockkit.com/ gives you *the option to choose which circuits are on* at any given time, unlike a transfer switch where those decisions need to be made upon installation. Also, a manual transfer switch like the one you linked to needs to be manually turned off before restoring utility power....same as an interlock kit.

If someoned needed to know the moment the street power is back up, this device might be an option when using a manual transfer switch or interlock kit > http://www.homedepot.com/buy/reliance-controls-powerback-utility-power-return-alert-thp108.html.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Vin" said:


> The http://www.interlockkit.com/ gives you the option to choose which circuits are on at any given time, unlike a transfer switch where those decisions need to be made upon installation. Also, a manual transfer switch like the one you linked to needs to be manually turned off before restoring utility power....same as an interlock kit.
> 
> If someoned needed to know the moment the street power is back up, this device might be an option when using a manual transfer switch or interlock kit > http://www.homedepot.com/buy/reliance-controls-powerback-utility-power-return-alert-thp108.html.


Correct me if I am wrong, but that interlock kit makes it so your main breaker for your entire main panel is either on, or off and the entire panel is then connected to the generator.

That means if anything in your house is connected via the generator, everything in your house is connected to the generator. And saying its allowing you to choose which circuits are on the generator is a bit misleading. It allows you to choose which ones are on and off, simply by flipping circuit breakers, it does not allow you to choose which circuits are power by the generator, and which are left on the main service.

The switch I linked to, that's not the case. Those switches allow you to bypass only certain circuits, while leavening the rest of the house untouched. This means if you are strategic, you can have half the house or so connected always to the main service, and half or so connected to the generator.

That switch I linked to simply allows you to pick and choose upon installation what source an individual circuit gets its power from, where the interlock makes you choose for your entire system. Personally, I see more advantages of choosing certain key circuits in advance.

Really the difference is personal preference to a great extent, but I think with a little pre planning, choosing circus in advance based on location and logical need may make more sense to me. Of course, some of that may also depend on how your house was wired, how many sub panels you have, and so on.


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but that interlock kit makes it so your main breaker for your entire main panel is either on, or off and the entire panel is then connected to the generator.
> 
> That means if anything in your house is connected via the generator, everything in your house is connected to the generator.


The interlock kit *gives you access *to your entire panel at all times, however, you can still choose which circuits are on and which ones are off at any given time. Of course, you do have to be sure not to exceed the capability (wattage) of your generator but the worst that would happen is the generator would kick off, at which point you'd know you had too many circuits on.



inkahauts said:


> The switch I linked to, that's not the case. Those switches allow you to bypass only certain circuits, while leavening the rest of the house untouched. This means if you are strategic, you can have half the house or so connected always to the main service, and half or so connected to the generator.


Not exactly. The main panel is always in control of all the circuits unless the transfer switch is manually engaged, then the pre chosen circuits are the only ones that can be on and powered by the generator. But like the interlock kit, when the power goes out it involves user interface and also will not allow the main panel to be fed by the utility power and the generator at the same time.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Vin" said:


> The interlock kit gives you access to your entire panel at all times, however, you can still choose which circuits are on and which ones are off at any given time. Of course, you do have to be sure not to exceed the capability (wattage) of your generator but the worst that would happen is the generator would kick off, at which point you'd know you had too many circuits on.


Again, personal preference to me. The disadvantage to the interlock is that it does make you choose one source or the other for everything, period. Of course you don't have to have all the circuits on, but then in some houses that have multiple sub panels in differne threads, this is more of a hassle.



"Vin" said:


> Not exactly. The main panel is always in control of all the circuits unless the transfer switch is manually engaged, then the pre chosen circuits are the only ones that can be on and powered by the generator. But like the interlock kit, when the power goes out it involves user interface and also will not allow the main panel to be fed by the utility power and the generator at the same time.


I'll have to re read but the one I linked based on a quick view of how its wired, allows you to leave other circuits wired to the main service and turned on, because the transfer panel is wired in after the main panels circuit breakers, and there fore chooses a source for the circuit after the main panel circuit breaker for that circuit, and not a source for the actual panel.


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## Joe C (Mar 3, 2005)

Vin said:


> The http://www.interlockkit.com/ gives you *the option to choose which circuits are on* at any given time, unlike a transfer switch where those decisions need to be made upon installation. Also, a manual transfer switch like the one you linked to needs to be manually turned off before restoring utility power....same as an interlock kit.
> 
> If someoned needed to know the moment the street power is back up, this device might be an option when using a manual transfer switch or interlock kit > http://www.homedepot.com/buy/reliance-controls-powerback-utility-power-return-alert-thp108.html.


Interlock kit is the way to go. Being able to use a light in any room is nice especially in the winter when it gets dark early. I have the Power Back unit listed above, it does work but the alarm is low. A portable baby monitor would help to hear the alarm especially if the main panel is far away from the main area of the house.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Vin said:


> Having lived in NJ my whole life I can attest to everything you've stated but *having a chance *is not the same as *what typically occurs *at any given location, which is what my course of action is being based on.


I bought my home in Piscataway in 1986 and for 10 years we had no problems. Then we had a "500" year storm. OK, we got thru that, I figured I might not live another 500 years, so we were safe. Next came a "1,000" year storm. Then, we got a "1,500" year storm and I stopped believing that stuff completely.

Wonder what Sandy was? Was it just an anomaly or are we doomed to get these massive storms periodically now? I'm not really ready to take that chance. Not with the Raritan River just a few hundred feet from my home. I can run my sump pumps off my 5500 portable genny, that's not a problem. My mailman still doesn't have power and he's got a well and a septic system. Same town. That really bothers me.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> Again, personal preference to me. The disadvantage to the interlock is that it does make you choose one source or the other for everything, period. Of course you don't have to have all the circuits on, but then in some houses that have multiple sub panels in differne threads, this is more of a hassle.
> 
> I'll have to re read but the one I linked based on a quick view of how its wired, allows you to leave other circuits wired to the main service and turned on, because the transfer panel is wired in after the main panels circuit breakers, and there fore chooses a source for the circuit after the main panel circuit breaker for that circuit, and not a source for the actual panel.


Anyway you look at it, the automatic transfer switch is the best way to go. I've worked on them and as soon as the juice comes back the switch flips and you are back on the grid. We used big diesel generators in our plant and never had a problem. With the transfer switches, I mean. The generators were old and a pain, but that's another story.

Rich


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Rich" said:


> Anyway you look at it, the automatic transfer switch is the best way to go. I've worked on them and as soon as the juice comes back the switch flips and you are back on the grid. We used big diesel generators in our plant and never had a problem. With the transfer switches, I mean. The generators were old and a pain, but that's another story.
> 
> Rich


I don't think anyone here has suggested a automated one. Do you have any suggestions?


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Rich said:


> I bought my home in Piscataway in 1986 and for 10 years we had no problems. Then we had a "500" year storm. OK, we got thru that, I figured I might not live another 500 years, so we were safe. Next came a "1,000" year storm. Then, we got a "1,500" year storm and I stopped believing that stuff completely.
> 
> Wonder what Sandy was? Was it just an anomaly or are we doomed to get these massive storms periodically now? I'm not really ready to take that chance. Not with the Raritan River just a few hundred feet from my home. I can run my sump pumps off my 5500 portable genny, that's not a problem. My mailman still doesn't have power and he's got a well and a septic system. Same town. That really bothers me.
> 
> Rich


Rich, no doubt your history in your house warrants a permanently installed standby generator. I've been in my house in Clifton since 1988 and we've been very lucky with respect to power outages....we've never experienced anything like Sandy and we're hoping (gambling I guess) that we never will again. Flooding hasn't been an issue for us either. So, for me, a portable generator will be my backup for the next power outage.....only time will tell if my gamble pays off.


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Rich said:


> Anyway you look at it, the automatic transfer switch is the best way to go. I've worked on them and as soon as the juice comes back the switch flips and you are back on the grid. We used big diesel generators in our plant and never had a problem. With the transfer switches, I mean. The generators were old and a pain, but that's another story.
> 
> Rich


Absolutely, anyone getting a permanently installed standby generator would be crazy not to have an automatic transfer switch...unfortunately, as I'm sure you're well aware, aren't an option (for obvious reasons) for portable generators.


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## BlackDynamite (Jun 5, 2007)

Vin;3144797 said:


> Absolutely, anyone getting a permanently installed standby generator would be crazy not to have an automatic transfer switch...unfortunately, as I'm sure you're well aware, aren't an option (for obvious reasons) for portable generators.


I don't see why a portable generator couldn't be rigged with an automatic switch. Most of the bigger ones (5000 watts and up) have electric start, so it shouldn't be too hard to automate it.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"BlackDynamite" said:


> I don't see why a portable generator couldn't be rigged with an automatic switch. Most of the bigger ones (5000 watts and up) have electric start, so it shouldn't be too hard to automate it.


I'd really only be concerned about it going back to service power and ending generator dependence.


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## BlackDynamite (Jun 5, 2007)

inkahauts;3144810 said:


> I'd really only be concerned about it going back to service power and ending generator dependence.


Yeah that could be tricky.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

TED 5000-G is awesome. It took about an hour to setup, and now have full browser dashboard with power usage to the second, and history.

Very cool ... it's an excellent indicator of normal watt requirements by hour for a typical day, when planning for generator.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> I don't think anyone here has suggested a automated one. Do you have any suggestions?


I believe most of the whole home gennys either include an automatic transfer switch or recommend one. The big automatic transfer switches I've worked with come on so quickly you hardly know you've lost power from the grid.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Vin said:


> Rich, no doubt your history in your house warrants a permanently installed standby generator. I've been in my house in Clifton since 1988 and we've been very lucky with respect to power outages....we've never experienced anything like Sandy and we're hoping (gambling I guess) that we never will again. Flooding hasn't been an issue for us either. So, for me, a portable generator will be my backup for the next power outage.....only time will tell if my gamble pays off.


I just sent an email to 101.5 asking them to bring up the question of forcing all gas stations to be equipped with emergency generators as Florida does. If they can get the ball rolling, you're right. If things stay the same and your power goes out for 7 weeks, as is still happening is some places, where do you get the gas for a stretch like that?

Yeah, it's a gamble.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Vin said:


> Absolutely, anyone getting a permanently installed standby generator would be crazy not to have an automatic transfer switch...unfortunately, as I'm sure you're well aware, aren't an option (for obvious reasons) for portable generators.


I could make one. Just takes a couple contactors. Don't know what the code enforcement people would think of that... :lol:

Seriously, portable gennys are just that: Portable. I don't think using a using an automatic device of any sort would be of help. Probably end up wrecking the genny or burning down the house. So, yeah, it is pretty obvious.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BlackDynamite said:


> I don't see why a portable generator couldn't be rigged with an automatic switch. Most of the bigger ones (5000 watts and up) have electric start, so it shouldn't be too hard to automate it.


Suppose your home runs (wattage-wise) at a much higher wattage than the genny? Something is gonna blow as soon as that switch kicks in. Not a good idea.

Rich


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## BlackDynamite (Jun 5, 2007)

Rich;3145593 said:


> Suppose your home runs (wattage-wise) at a much higher wattage than the genny? Something is gonna blow as soon as that switch kicks in. Not a good idea.
> 
> Rich


Well most generators have a breaker, so it would just turn the generator off.

The idea is to get one that is strong enough though, if you're going to have it come on automatically.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> I'd really only be concerned about it going back to service power and ending generator dependence.


That would be feasible, the problem would be getting that accepted by the code official and your insurance company. I'm not sure where the NEC stands on generators.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BlackDynamite said:


> Well most generators have a breaker, so it would just turn the generator off.


Then what's the point of having it? I have seen enough destroyed CBs in my working life to be just a bit leery of them.



> The idea is to get one that is strong enough though, if you're going to have it come on automatically.


Then you might as well get the whole home genny. Much safer.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Does anyone have a quick answer to this: How long would two large propane tanks last running a whole home genny? My mother and father's home never had NG and we had propane tanks just to cook with. I have no idea if two of them would last weeks or months running a whole home genny.

Rich


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Rich said:


> I just sent an email to 101.5 asking them to bring up the question of forcing all gas stations to be equipped with emergency generators as Florida does. If they can get the ball rolling, you're right. If things stay the same and your power goes out for 7 weeks, as is still happening is some places, where do you get the gas for a stretch like that?
> 
> Yeah, it's a gamble.
> 
> Rich


Knowing what I know now, I'll only need enough gas to make the drive from Clifton to Piscataway. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Vin said:


> Knowing what I know now, I'll only need enough gas to make the drive from Clifton to Piscataway. :lol:


Just got the reply from 101.5. The bill to make the gas stations have gennys is in the legislature right now. They did have a discussion about it on the radio, I just missed it. If I can get gas, the need for a whole house genny goes down considerably.

Rich


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Rich said:


> Does anyone have a quick answer to this: How long would two large propane tanks last running a whole home genny? My mother and father's home never had NG and we had propane tanks just to cook with. I have no idea if two of them would last weeks or months running a whole home genny.
> 
> Rich


If you're talking about 100gal tanks, maybe a week or so based on what I've been able to glean from this thread:

http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...pane-generator&p=480539&viewfull=1#post480539


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Vin said:


> If you're talking about 100gal tanks, maybe a week or so based on what I've been able to glean from this thread:
> 
> http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...pane-generator&p=480539&viewfull=1#post480539


Well, back to NG.... :lol:

Rich


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## BlackDynamite (Jun 5, 2007)

Rich;3145598 said:


> Then what's the point of having it? I have seen enough destroyed CBs in my working life to be just a bit leery of them.
> 
> Then you might as well get the whole home genny. Much safer.
> 
> Rich


The point is the portable is much cheaper, you can also use it for other things, it's a lot less work to install, and you can take it with you if you ever move.

Those things obviously won't be important to everyone, but for someone like me who is low on cash at the moment, the portable option is sounding pretty good. Plus, I live in an earthquake area so if I ever need to use it for an extended period of time, chances are there won't be any natural gas anyway.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rich said:


> I just sent an email to 101.5 asking them to bring up the question of forcing all gas stations to be equipped with emergency generators as Florida does. If they can get the ball rolling, you're right. If things stay the same and your power goes out for 7 weeks, as is still happening is some places, where do you get the gas for a stretch like that?
> 
> Yeah, it's a gamble.
> 
> Rich


Good idea. It sure makes life easier after a storm, even if they just require them to be able to run their pumps. Well, I guess they also need to run the computer and cash registers.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rich said:


> Does anyone have a quick answer to this: How long would two large propane tanks last running a whole home genny? My mother and father's home never had NG and we had propane tanks just to cook with. I have no idea if two of them would last weeks or months running a whole home genny.
> 
> Rich


Rich, the average tank size is 120 gal, they use for whole home generators,and how long they last depends on how big the unit is and how much wattage it is producing. I posted a chart I got from one of my estimates in this post. Maybe it will help you. My gas guy put in 2 - 120 gal tanks (hooked together) for my 14k Generac and we also use LP from them for the gas fireplace.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

With the generator arriving today, I'm now more convinced then ever that portable was the right decision, especially after tracking usage with TED all day.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

"Rich" said:


> Then what's the point of having it? I have seen enough destroyed CBs in my working life to be just a bit leery of them.
> 
> Then you might as well get the whole home genny. Much safer.
> 
> Rich


A generator that runs on natural gas is likely to be as useless as your regular electrical service if you have a bad enough earthquake... I think the choice is somewhat dependent where you live to be honest.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> A generator that runs on natural gas is likely to be as useless as your regular electrical service if you have a bad enough earthquake... I think the choice is somewhat dependent where you live to be honest.


I liked having the unlimited supply of natural gas when we lived in Florida, but where we live in Maine, we are to far out in the country. You can only get it in the populated areas of the city.

Also, the generators output less wattage using NG than you do with LP. My Generac 14K shows an output of 14k with LP and only 13K with NG.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BlackDynamite said:


> The point is the portable is much cheaper, you can also use it for other things, it's a lot less work to install, and you can take it with you if you ever move.


I know the portable is cheaper, I realize a lot of folks can't afford the big ones. If that legislature passes, I might not get a whole house genny. I would get one more portable generator tho. Another thing to consider is the value added to your home if you sell it.



> Those things obviously won't be important to everyone, but for someone like me who is low on cash at the moment, the portable option is sounding pretty good. Plus, I live in an earthquake area so if I ever need to use it for an extended period of time, chances are there won't be any natural gas anyway.


Hmm. Never considered earthquakes. Good point.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> Good idea. It sure makes life easier after a storm, even if they just require them to be able to run their pumps. Well, I guess they also need to run the computer and cash registers.


Many of our gas stations aren't car repair facilities, they just pump gas. I'd think a couple portables would be enough for a small station. Of course, the bill's in the legislature now and nobody knows what the outcome will be.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> Rich, the average tank size is 120 gal, they use for whole home generators,and how long they last depends on how big the unit is and how much wattage it is producing. I posted a chart I got from one of my estimates in this post. Maybe it will help you. My gas guy put in 2 - 120 gal tanks (hooked together) for my 14k Generac and we also use LP from them for the gas fireplace.


I saw that post, wasn't considering propane so I didn't pay much attention to it. So a 14K genny running at half power would eat up a 120 gallon tank in ~ 60 hours of running. Back to the NG. Thanx for the link.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> A generator that runs on natural gas is likely to be as useless as your regular electrical service if you have a bad enough earthquake... I think the choice is somewhat dependent where you live to be honest.


Agreed. We've never had our gas go out in the over 26 years we've lived in our house, but that means nothing.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

loudo said:


> I liked having the unlimited supply of natural gas when we lived in Florida, but where we live in Maine, we are to far out in the country. You can only get it in the populated areas of the city.
> 
> Also, the generators output less wattage using NG than you do with LP. My Generac 14K shows an output of 14k with LP and only 13K with NG.


Been to the middle of Maine. Went to Millinocket for a week. Not much up there. Too bad you can't get a wood powered genny. Seriously.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Been thinking about those big diesel generators we had at work. They also had batteries to keep the power on briefly and start the diesel engines. Each had a bank of 6 cell batteries that would output 120V and that was changed to AC if the power went out. 

So, what do the whole home gennys do for power between losing power and starting up? Gotta be a battery and that means it's gotta be on a charger of some sort. More maintenance. 

I'd like to see the electrical drawings for these things before we buy one.

Rich


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Rich said:


> ...So, what do the whole home gennys do for power between losing power and starting up? Gotta be a battery and that means it's gotta be on a charger of some sort. More maintenance.
> 
> I'd like to see the electrical drawings for these things before we buy one.
> 
> Rich


With Generacs and other air cooled generators, power will be off for 10 to 30 seconds during startup. There is a battery with a smart charger for startup and control.

This is the one I am getting and wiring and manuals are in pdf downloads on this page:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Generac-Guardian-6051-Standby-Generator/p6952.html


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

I ran my 10KW Generac for a week (mostly at idle, as the power draw was low) and used about 100-125 gallons of LP.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Well, the decision is now out of my hands. My wife wants the whole home genny and when she wants something...

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

sbl said:


> I ran my 10KW Generac for a week (mostly at idle, as the power draw was low) and used about 100-125 gallons of LP.


I'm looking at a month's running. Might as well prepare for the worst, even if it's never needed.

Rich


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rich said:


> Well, the decision is now out of my hands. My wife wants the whole home genny and when she wants something...
> 
> Rich


I would agree with her, especially after last winter, up here. I had my manual system, which I still have until the 14k whole house unit comes in next month, and I needed it three times. Every time it was as a result of snow or ice. All three times it was at night, so I had to go out and shovel the pad off, and try to set it up in the dark. Plus having to go out there and re-fuel it every few hours was a pain.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Rich said:


> Well, the decision is now out of my hands. My wife wants the whole home genny and when she wants something...


Hi. Whether you go with whole home or not, it may be worth the time to totally understand your watt usage, by circuit breaker, by 120v leg, and in total, with averages and peaks.

I went the inverter route, and I now have all the parts for the complete system, and just completed the energy analysis.

Using the TED Gateway and the iPhone app, it was bothering me that the house was always hovering between 700-1000 watts, with a usual daily high about 2500ish, with today at 3,052 watts, week peak at 5,826 watts.

I wanted to understand every watt and especially what was in the daily steady 700-1000 watts with no lights on, and just mapped it all out. It does take several hours, if not days, to figure it all out.

I still have some work to do, to understand usage per 120v leg of the panel, but I'm finding this very important.

And in my case the DirecTV equipment is not insignificant and a chunk of the steady state, and takes planning.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sixto said:


> Hi. Whether you go with whole home or not, it may be worth the time to totally understand your watt usage, by circuit breaker, by 120v leg, and in total, with averages and peaks.
> 
> I went the inverter route, and I now have all the parts for the complete system, and just completed the energy analysis.
> 
> ...


My D* equipment is a load (pun intended) too. 12 HRs and 8 plasma TVs add up.

Doesn't matter, the wife has spoken and there's no real argument I can think of against a whole home genny.

About the wattage. I won't be able to get the genny installed for quite a while because it seems as if everyone in NJ is in the process of buying one. I'll probably wait until things calm down before I do any preliminary planning. I want to buy a genny that exceeds my normal wattage use in the summer by 20%. The 80% rule should hold true with a genny.

Rich


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Rich said:


> I want to buy a genny that exceeds my normal wattage use in the summer by 20%. The 80% rule should hold true with a genny.


Open your wallet. The 17 & 20kW Generacs are not meant for that. They are meant to be able to get you by for a few days to a week or two. Yes, they can run for several weeks, but that is not really what they are meant for.

To do what you are suggesting, you probably need to start looking at a 45kW or higher and a 200a transfer switch. Your price points tripled.

The 16 circuits we have (actually 15 as one is 240v) will get us by. We have A/C or heat (more heat than A/C because the heat is gas), the refrigerators, 2 TV's, hot water (also gas), alarm panel (smokes are integrated) and some lights. Would it be ideal to live this way for a month? No. But it sure beats the alternative.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Rich said:


> ...About the wattage. I won't be able to get the genny installed for quite a while because it seems as if everyone in NJ is in the process of buying one. I'll probably wait until things calm down before I do any preliminary planning. I want to buy a genny that exceeds my normal wattage use in the summer by 20%. The 80% rule should hold true with a genny.
> 
> Rich


You really ought to take a hard look at Generac's Nexus Service Disconnect 200A switch with load shedding. All you need is a generator with KW rating for critical power needs (including items like well pumps and sewage pumps) and comfort needs, and with a little discipline and load understanding during a power outage, you can get by with a smaller generator than you think. Lower cost, gas consumption, and noise level can result.

With my house, the 10KW unit works (the smallest with the Nexus switch), but I have to increase my gas meter size. Elizabethtown Gas does that at no charge.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> Open your wallet. The 17 & 20kW Generacs are not meant for that. They are meant to be able to get you by for a few days to a week or two. Yes, they can run for several weeks, but that is not really what they are meant for.


Why can't they run longer?



> To do what you are suggesting, you probably need to start looking at a 45kW or higher and a 200a transfer switch. Your price points tripled.


That's not gonna happen. I'd move to PA first.



> The 16 circuits we have (actually 15 as one is 240v) will get us by. We have A/C or heat (more heat than A/C because the heat is gas), the refrigerators, 2 TV's, hot water (also gas), alarm panel (smokes are integrated) and some lights. Would it be ideal to live this way for a month? No. But it sure beats the alternative.


Well, some folks are going on almost 2 months without electricity in the City.

Still have plenty of time. Been thinking of buying an "emergency" home.

Rich


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

patmurphey said:


> You really ought to take a hard look at Generac's Nexus Service Disconnect 200A switch with load shedding. All you need is a generator with KW rating for critical power needs (including items like well pumps and sewage pumps) and comfort needs, and with a little discipline and load understanding during a power outage, you can get by with a smaller generator than you think. Lower cost, gas consumption, and noise level can result.
> 
> With my house, the 10KW unit works (the smallest with the Nexus switch), but I have to increase my gas meter size. Elizabethtown Gas does that at no charge.


That switch was my choice also and the one they are putting on my 14kw Generac.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

patmurphey said:


> You really ought to take a hard look at Generac's Nexus Service Disconnect 200A switch with load shedding. All you need is a generator with KW rating for critical power needs (including items like well pumps and sewage pumps) and comfort needs, and with a little discipline and load understanding during a power outage, you can get by with a smaller generator than you think. Lower cost, gas consumption, and noise level can result.
> 
> With my house, the 10KW unit works (the smallest with the Nexus switch), but I have to increase my gas meter size. Elizabethtown Gas does that at no charge.


We're not familiar with each other. I've been an electrician for 40 years. I understand the electrical parts of this, the gas part is something I can deal with. I think I'll give PSE&G a call and see if they'll change the meter out at no charge also. Thanx for that idea.

Rich


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Rich said:


> Why can't they run longer?


They "can" do it, it is just not what they are designed for. Just change the oil once a week and they will keep running.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> They "can" do it, it is just not what they are designed for. Just change the oil once a week and they will keep running.


That makes me feel a bit better... 

Rich


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## brad2388 (Dec 24, 2011)

I said the same thing with generacs. At 3600 rpm nothings going to last. U have to change the oil once a week if ur going to run it non stop. It only holds 2 qts. 

The nexus switch is just a name. All there switches have been the same but there just controlling it with a electronic controller called the nexus. Its automatic like they always been but its just a digital readout. For the money generac is the way to go. But buyer beware!


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

Most commercial generators are 1800 RPM and not 3600 RPM.

They are also liquid cooled - not air cooled.

There is a reason for both if you want long term use (especially with Generac units).


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## brad2388 (Dec 24, 2011)

Yep yep. Hence why there not made to run for long periods of time


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## trdrjeff (Dec 3, 2007)

Anyone think they'll need it for this:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> They "can" do it, it is just not what they are designed for. Just change the oil once a week and they will keep running.


I just called Generac and they told me that the residential gennys can run continuously and that they have indicators for the oil that tell you if the pressure is bad or if something else is wrong. I asked about using synthetic oil, which I use in all my cars, and was told I could.

In their FAQ I found this:

_Unlike other engines, used in backup power generation, Generac OHVI engines are made specifically for generators. They are engineered to run for the long periods of time required during a severe power outage or on a job site, utilizing the same type of pressurized oil lubrication used to give automobile engines long and trouble-free lives. _

I'm feeling a lot better about the Generacs now. I also asked if they actually used a generator or an alternator in the whole home units and it is an alternator.

I also asked about running them for a month or more and was told to just keep an eye on the unit's readouts and I'd be fine.

Rich


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Rich said:


> I just called Generac and they told me that the residential gennys can run continuously and that they have indicators for the oil that tell you if the pressure is bad or if something else is wrong. I asked about using synthetic oil, which I use in all my cars, and was told I could.
> 
> In their FAQ I found this:
> 
> ...


That is my reason for selecting generac for my backup system.


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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

My dealer recommends checking the oil level every couple of days, but otherwise no problem with extended running. I note that with LP/NG, the oil stays clear as compared to a gasoline engine where it turns dark almost immediately.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Rich said:


> I asked about using synthetic oil, which I use in all my cars, and was told I could.


I use Mobil 1 5W-30. Generac's oil recommendations are a bit screwy. The winter oil and summer oil have very little overlap. So in the shoulder months where it could be 60 during the day and 30 at night, they really don't have a good recommended oil for those periods.

So I called and asked about using the 5W-30 synthetic year-round and was told it was OK.


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

trdrjeff said:


> Anyone think they'll need it for this:
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A-kIdmKCUAA3AQx.jpg:large


Not likely. Just because we get snow does it mean the world is coming to an end.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

Rich said:


> I just called Generac and they told me that the residential gennys can run continuously and that they have indicators for the oil that tell you if the pressure is bad or if something else is wrong. I asked about using synthetic oil, which I use in all my cars, and was told I could.
> 
> In their FAQ I found this:
> 
> ...


No matter what you might have found in their FAQs, the residential Generacs are listed as "Standby Generators". On the surface, that makes sense, as you don't use them 24/7/365. But dig deeper and you will find they are called that because they are meant for short duration standby use, not continuous use for a period of time. They even state that in their owners manual.

Generacs are known for issues running longer periods of time instead of short term standby. Have plenty of oil and filters ready if you plan for using it more than ~ day.

As noted above, that is why commercial generators are 1800 RPM instead of 3600 RPM and liquid cooled instead of air cooled.


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## brad2388 (Dec 24, 2011)

Thanks there somerandomidiot!




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## sbl (Jul 21, 2007)

I have a Generac 10KW standby generator and it ran continuously for a week and a half after an ice storm a couple of years ago.The generator-specializing company who installed it told me that it would be fine, but they recommended shutting it down every couple of days to check the oil.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

sbl said:


> I have a Generac 10KW standby generator and it ran continuously for a week and a half after an ice storm a couple of years ago.The generator-specializing company who installed it told me that it would be fine, but they recommended shutting it down every couple of days to check the oil.


That is what I was told by the company that installed my unit.


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

Running a Generac 16KW residential unit since July, 2008. Replaced filter in spring 2010 and changed oil to Mobil 1- 5W-30 after talking with the Generac production facility a couple miles away from my house.

Just replaced the battery in it last weekend since they only last 5 years, the oil is clean even after 3 years, and the exerciser runs it 10 minutes every week. Not many outages at all, the longest was for 6 hours two years ago. 

These units are hard to blow up, and look at the beating portable generators take on construction job sites running all day long for years. 


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

There was an infomercial about generators on this weekend that got me thinking about one again, and my old boss has one too. The only problem is my neighborhood doesn't have gas lines, we're an all electric subdivision. Any of you guys have any thoughts on setting one up with a propane tank to fuel it? If so how big?

My alternate plan is to put a manual transfer switch in and backfeed a portable gasoline generator.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

codespy said:


> Running a Generac 16KW residential unit since July, 2008. Replaced filter in spring 2010 and changed oil to Mobil 1- 5W-30 after talking with the Generac production facility a couple miles away from my house.
> 
> Just replaced the battery in it last weekend since they only last 5 years, the oil is clean even after 3 years, and the exerciser runs it 10 minutes every week. Not many outages at all, the longest was for 6 hours two years ago.
> 
> ...


That seems to be the way. 2 years ago we lost the power 3 times during winter snow storms and had to shovel in the dark and set up the manual system, so we decided to install a whole house 14kw Generac, Then the power company went through an aggressive tree trimming project the next summer. Last winter we never lost it once, but it will be just a matter of time until the trees grow back or we get one of our famous Maine ice storms. We are ready, if it happens.


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## sangs (Apr 2, 2008)

After three straight years of weather-related outages - from brief to extended, thanks Sandy - we'd had enough. Had a Generac 20kW whole-home NG model installed this spring. Have already had to use it a couple times, since PSE&G hasn't exactly fortified the wires in our area following Sandy. It can run everything and has the Nexus transfer switch. I don't care if I never have to use it again, the peace of mind is worth it alone. I consider it protection money paid to Mother Nature. Which being from NJ is something we're familiar with...


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

JosephB said:


> There was an infomercial about generators on this weekend that got me thinking about one again, and my old boss has one too. The only problem is my neighborhood doesn't have gas lines, we're an all electric subdivision. Any of you guys have any thoughts on setting one up with a propane tank to fuel it? If so how big?
> 
> My alternate plan is to put a manual transfer switch in and backfeed a portable gasoline generator.


We have the same issue, here in rural Maine, no NG. We put in two 200 gallon LP tanks (also use the LP for the gas fireplace), it was installed last March and the gauges on the tanks haven't moved off full. It gets run for about 10 minutes every week, to test the system and charge the start up battery.

As far as running time a single 100 gallon tank will give you about 43 hours of run time at 100% usage and two 200 gallon tanks will give you about 86 hours, but will last a lot longer as the demand drops.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

sbl said:


> I have a Generac 10KW standby generator and it ran continuously for a week and a half after an ice storm a couple of years ago.The generator-specializing company who installed it told me that it would be fine, but they recommended shutting it down every couple of days to check the oil.


I check my oil everyday when it is running and if the outage goes past a week, I change it.. Book calls for 200 hours so I am a day early. I also change it after extended outages (3-4+ days).


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## JosephB (Nov 14, 2005)

loudo said:


> We have the same issue, here in rural Maine, no NG. We put in two 200 gallon LP tanks (also use the LP for the gas fireplace), it was installed last March and the gauges on the tanks haven't moved off full. It gets run for about 10 minutes every week, to test the system and charge the start up battery.
> 
> As far as running time a single 100 gallon tank will give you about 43 hours of run time at 100% usage and two 200 gallon tanks will give you about 86 hours, but will last a lot longer as the demand drops.


Hmm, that's good to know. My house is not very large (3 bedroom garden home, less than 2k sq ft). My fireplace is a false electric one, so no gas logs, the generator and maybe my grill would be the only thing on it. Being in Alabama my main problem is outages due to tornadoes/hurricanes, but we are due for a 20 year snowstorm and the last one knocked out power for a week.


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## Vin (Mar 29, 2004)

Seeing this thread has been revived, here's my update: as planned, I went ahead and got a portable generator and an interlock kit. I bought a Smarter Tools GP9500EB from Costco.com last December for $800, no longer available there but this is the one > http://www.homedepot.com/p/Smarter-Tools-GP9500EB-7-500-Continuous-Watt-Gasoline-Powered-Portable-Generator-with-No-Flat-Wheels-Electric-Start-and-Battery-STGP-9500EB/203494507#.Uma8CXvD-70

My hope is that my monthly test runs I've been doing since purchasing it will be the only 'action' it ever sees. 

I'm curious as to what others did since our discussion last fall. Rich? Diana? Anyone else?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Vin said:


> Seeing this thread has been revived, here's my update: as planned, I went ahead and got a portable generator and an interlock kit. I bought a Smarter Tools GP9500EB from Costco.com last December for $800, no longer available there but this is the one > http://www.homedepot.com/p/Smarter-Tools-GP9500EB-7-500-Continuous-Watt-Gasoline-Powered-Portable-Generator-with-No-Flat-Wheels-Electric-Start-and-Battery-STGP-9500EB/203494507#.Uma8CXvD-70
> 
> My hope is that my monthly test runs I've been doing since purchasing it will be the only 'action' it ever sees.
> 
> I'm curious as to what others did since our discussion last fall. Rich? Diana? Anyone else?


Still haven't pulled the trigger on one. My Costco generator is completely shot and I have to, at least, get a new one from a more reliable store or site. I've received a couple estimates on whole house gennies and the installation costs are sky high around here. Seems as if all the A/C companies have found a new, very profitable money stream. One company, Gold Medal, quoted me a price of $1,000 per KW. So for that 14KW gennie that I'd want they'd charge at least $14,000. My wife keeps asking about one, so I've really got no choice, I have to do something.

Rich


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## sangs (Apr 2, 2008)

Rich said:


> Still haven't pulled the trigger on one. My Costco generator is completely shot and I have to, at least, get a new one from a more reliable store or site. I've received a couple estimates on whole house gennies and the installation costs are sky high around here. Seems as if all the A/C companies have found a new, very profitable money stream. One company, Gold Medal, quoted me a price of $1,000 per KW. So for that 14KW gennie that I'd want they'd charge at least $14,000. My wife keeps asking about one, so I've really got no choice, I have to do something.
> 
> Rich


What??!! Living in Montclair, I'm familiar with the NJ markup, but if that price is for the generator alone, that is beyond ridiculous. I'm not saying the job was cheap, but we paid less than that for the 20kw Generac, installed, with the Nexus transfer switch, by a certified Generac contractor. (In fact, the install was more costly than the generator itself.)


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

sangs said:


> What??!! Living in Montclair, I'm familiar with the NJ markup, but if that price is for the generator alone, that is beyond ridiculous. I'm not saying the job was cheap, but we paid less than that for the 20kw Generac, installed, with the Nexus transfer switch, by a certified Generac contractor. (In fact, the install was more costly than the generator itself.)


Everything is included in Gold Medal's price.

Rich


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Honda Inverter + NG Conversion Kit + InterLock Kit. All set and tested every month or so.

Also The Energy Detective (TED) to track utilization with and without the generator. At this moment in time, pulling 1434 watts, usually fluctuates between 850-1500 watts without A/C, toaster, hairdryer, and microwave.

Just perfect.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

Vin said:


> Seeing this thread has been revived, here's my update: as planned, I went ahead and got a portable generator and an interlock kit. I bought a Smarter Tools GP9500EB from Costco.com last December for $800, no longer available there but this is the one > http://www.homedepot.com/p/Smarter-Tools-GP9500EB-7-500-Continuous-Watt-Gasoline-Powered-Portable-Generator-with-No-Flat-Wheels-Electric-Start-and-Battery-STGP-9500EB/203494507#.Uma8CXvD-70
> 
> My hope is that my monthly test runs I've been doing since purchasing it will be the only 'action' it ever sees.
> 
> I'm curious as to what others did since our discussion last fall. Rich? Diana? Anyone else?


 We did a 17kW Generac back in the spring. $8400 all in (and they did a great job). I've recommended them to several neighbors. Haven't needed it yet, and I just signed up for an annual maintenance contract, so we'll do our first oil change soon.

As an interesting aside, PSE&G replaced our gas meter (the old one was rated at 250 cubic feet/hr, which is the consumption rate of the generator at full load) and we ended up with a $800 credit on our account. PSE&G never gave us a good explanation of why, just saying that it was due to "metering errors" with the old meter.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

I hope you wrote demanding an explanation and immediate reversal of the credit until they explained themselves.....


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Laxguy said:


> I hope you wrote demanding an explanation and immediate reversal of the credit until they explained themselves.....


This is what is to be expected of a good honest citizen!!! !rolling


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Diana C said:


> We did a 17kW Generac back in the spring. $8400 all in (and they did a great job). I've recommended them to several neighbors. Haven't needed it yet, and I just signed up for an annual maintenance contract, so we'll do our first oil change soon.
> 
> As an interesting aside, PSE&G replaced our gas meter (the old one was rated at 250 cubic feet/hr, which is the consumption rate of the generator at full load) and we ended up with a $800 credit on our account. PSE&G never gave us a good explanation of why, just saying that it was due to "metering errors" with the old meter.


That price is about "right". The 17kW will sell for about $3800 at HD, so you are about double for it plus installation.

Whenever a gas meter is pulled, it must be tested. Not sure of NJ law, but here if it is more than 2% fast, then a refund must be given back all the way to when it was installed.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> That price is about "right". The 17kW will sell for about $3800 at HD, so you are about double for it plus installation.
> 
> Whenever a gas meter is pulled, it must be tested. Not sure of NJ law, but here if it is more than 2% fast, then a refund must be given back all the way to when it was installed.


Considering that my brother in law was charged $600 for a new gas meter, I consider myself lucky. 

Actually, we needed the 200amp Nexus switch (the house has 200 amp service) and the 17kW unit with the Nexus switch is over $4200 at Home Depot, so it is exactly double.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Considering that my brother in law was charged $600 for a new gas meter, I consider myself lucky. 

Actually, we needed the 200amp Nexus switch (the house has 200 amp service) and the 17kW unit with the Nexus switch is over $4200 at Home Depot, so it is exactly double.


How on earth could the gas company ever charge anyone for a re has meter unless you physically damage it yourself? I've never heard if such a thing.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

If you need a meter capable of delivering more flow than the standard size, why would you be surprised that a utility would charge more for it? It probably costs them a lot more since it is a lower volume product, and they're using a commercial meter on a residence. One should just be happy they didn't have to replace the pipe from the street to your house, I'm sure that wouldn't be pretty, or cheap.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

How on earth could the gas company ever charge anyone for a re has meter unless you physically damage it yourself? I've never heard if such a thing.

As Slice1900 mentioned, the meter upgrade is to support the higher consumption rate, so it is considered a service upgrade (like adding DVR service to your DirecTV account requires you to actually have a DVR, usually at a cost).

Fortunately, I live in an area where we have high gas pressure. I don't know what they would do if your gas service couldn't deliver the specified minimum pressure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> How on earth could the gas company ever charge anyone for a re has meter unless you physically damage it yourself? I've never heard if such a thing.


This is NJ we're talking about here. Nothing should surprise you. Seriously, you gotta live here to appreciate just how loony the place can be at times. Fortunately, I like loony. :rolling:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Diana C said:


> As Slice1900 mentioned, the meter upgrade is to support the higher consumption rate, so it is considered a service upgrade (like adding DVR service to your DirecTV account requires you to actually have a DVR, usually at a cost).
> 
> Fortunately, I live in an area where we have high gas pressure. I don't know what they would do if your gas service couldn't deliver the specified minimum pressure.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


I had my meter checked and there is no problem with it.

Rich


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## sangs (Apr 2, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> One should just be happy they didn't have to replace the pipe from the street to your house, I'm sure that wouldn't be pretty, or cheap.


PSE&G tried to pull that with us - and was going to charge $7,000 to do so! However, they suggested that had we chosen to purchase and have our generator installed by them, that price wouldn't have been as steep. Needless to say, we found away around that exorbitant nonsense and it turns out we didn't even need it to be done for the generator to work as it's supposed to work. As Rich said, just the usual NJ looniness.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

sangs said:


> PSE&G tried to pull that with us - and was going to charge $7,000 to do so! However, they suggested that had we chosen to purchase and have our generator installed by them, that price wouldn't have been as steep. Needless to say, we found away around that exorbitant nonsense and it turns out we didn't even need it to be done for the generator to work as it's supposed to work. As Rich said, just the usual NJ looniness.


Amazes me at times what goes on here. The latest one that really got to me was installing electrical lines under the boardwalk at Seaside Heights (I think that's correct, not sure). Who the hell allowed that? Were they surprised when the whole thing burned up? Water is bad enough, salt water is corrosive and really conductive. How did that happen...just Jersey being Jersey, I guess.

Rich


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Diana C said:


> Actually, we needed the 200amp Nexus switch (the house has 200 amp service) and the 17kW unit with the Nexus switch is over $4200 at Home Depot, so it is exactly double.


Yeah, I just used the EZ-Switch that came with the 17kW. Much more of a DIY product than the Nexus, plus I have a 2x200 Amp and it would have been hard to pick which one we wanted to use. Would have had to move some things from one to the other and that would have been a PITA.

After I got it set up and an amp meter on it, other than when the A/C was starting we weren't pulling anywhere near the 66 amp capacity. So I did some reconfiguring and now the 17kW will run everything in the house except the main floor A/C (5-ton) and the oven (water heaters and dryer are gas).


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Diana C said:


> ...Fortunately, I live in an area where we have high gas pressure. I don't know what they would do if your gas service couldn't deliver the specified minimum pressure...


The new model Generac's require only 3" of water gas pressure - no problem anywhere now.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Here if you can show you have a new for more pressure they have to upgrade the meter. No change. I don't even think thus upgrade you if you wanted more without any need for it. And I thought Cali had all the craziness to itself.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> Here if you can show you have a new for more pressure they have to upgrade the meter. No change. I don't even think thus upgrade you if you wanted more without any need for it. And I thought Cali had all the craziness to itself.


NJ has always been a strange place. Billy the Kid came from Jersey, I think...huh, just Googled it and he was born, perhaps, in NYC. Could have sworn it was Jersey. Apparently, his birthplace is really unknown.

Rich


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Just upgraded my meter recently to accommodate the generator. I only had a 200CFH meter, now 450. The meter was free but it was a few hundred dollars for my plumbing guy to change the piping for the new meter, and another thousand to run a pipe for the outside quick disconnect.


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## sangs (Apr 2, 2008)

Rich said:


> NJ has always been a strange place. Billy the Kid came from Jersey, I think...huh, just Googled it and he was born, perhaps, in NYC. Could have sworn it was Jersey. Apparently, his birthplace is really unknown.
> 
> Rich


Between taxes, fees, tolls, tips and other assorted "Jersey Markups" as we call them, I'd venture to guess we're the most nickel-and-dimed state in the union. (NYC could argue that it is, but despite what they think over there, they're not a state. Or a nation, for that matter.  )


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

patmurphey said:


> The new model Generac's require only 3" of water gas pressure - no problem anywhere now.


How new? Mine from summer of '12 required the full 7".

FYI, 1" WC = .58 oz per square inch.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> How new? Mine from summer of '12 required the full 7".
> 
> FYI, 1" WC = .58 oz per square inch.


You just missed the new 2013 models with the Evolution controllers and 5 year warranty (so did I- Dec '12). The Nexus models like yours run with a minimum 5" water column.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

One thing I am surprised no one has mentioned is while the generator may run fine on 3" of pressure you need to be sure your gas plumbing can flow enough gas at the low pressure to satisfy the demand. I have personal experience with that, at home I live in the country on a large lot, the house is about 80' from the gas meter. I have 1" pipe all the way from the meter to the split between the furnace / water heater to flow enough gas. At work we have 3" gas pipe running the length of the building but with a new furnace at the far end we exceeded the flow capacity of the pipe. We had to bump the main distribution pressure and install regulators at each furnace to bring it back down


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

sangs said:


> Between taxes, fees, tolls, tips and other assorted "Jersey Markups" as we call them, I'd venture to guess we're the most nickel-and-dimed state in the union. (NYC could argue that it is, but despite what they think over there, they're not a state. Or a nation, for that matter.  )


They really get the short end of the stick when it comes to state taxes and stuff like that. They'd be better off being a seperate entity, I think, instead of supporting the rest of the state.

It's really kinda hard to compare NYC to NJ, tho. I've always been amazed at the cost of things, like hamburgers, in the City.

Rich


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

longrider said:


> One thing I am surprised no one has mentioned is while the generator may run fine on 3" of pressure you need to be sure your gas plumbing can flow enough gas at the low pressure to satisfy the demand.


I have plenty of pressure at my meter, but the plumbers who plumbed my house stepped down the pipe size has they went a long. It enters the house at 2" but steps down almost immediately to 1.25". Had they run 2" all the way to the mechanical room I would have been able to tap it and run the pipe out and up to the generator. As it is, I had to put a Tee at the meter and run 1.25" underground to the generator. I now have plenty of gas. Based on the tables, a 1" probably would have been enough at all but under full load, but the price difference between 1" and 1.25" was negligible and the ditch is the same size.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

We had a slightly more difficult install because our gas line enters the house underground, through the center front of the foundation. The basement is completely finished, with sheetrock walls and ceilings except for one area where all the plumbing stacks head upstairs, where there is a suspended ceiling about 4" lower than the sheetrock portion. The plumber that did the generator work split the gas line at the meter and ran 1" flexible pipe ("yellow pipe") over to the suspended celing, through the wall that separated that section from the rest of the basement, then along the main floor joist to the outer wall. The exposed pipe was then covered by the contractor. The pressure at the generator read as 7" WC - more than enough, and the unit has been tested at maximum load.


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## dudester (Feb 16, 2012)

The gas supply lines are fiqured on size,length and btu's of appliances going to be installed at time of installation. Thats why it is stepped down after connections with appliances. The btu demand dropped off from that run.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

dudester said:


> The gas supply lines are fiqured on size,length and btu's of appliances going to be installed at time of installation. Thats why it is stepped down after connections with appliances. The btu demand dropped off from that run.


I know why, it just creates more work later if you want to reconfigure things. Save a few dollars when building to spent more later when remodeling.


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## eandras (Feb 16, 2007)

I installed a manual transfer switch that I purchased from Home Depot. 10 circuit unit that included the outside connection box. Made a 85 foot cable with 10/4 with ground to go from box to shed. Next I installed an outside natural gas line 1" diameter and ordered a hose with compatible quick disconnects to reach the shed . I ordered a tri fuel kit from us carburetor that will allow the generac gp5500 watt generator to run on natural gas, propane, or gasoline. When installing the transfer switch I made sure the directv system was connected. I actually run most of the house on the generator. This was done due to the time without power from sandy. I did this to my parents house in Florida when they had hurricane after hurricane a few years ago. They ran on natural gas for three week straight. The only time the generator was turned off was every 100 hours to change the oil. I run the generator 2 times a month for 2 to 3 hours.

Ed


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## 242424 (Mar 22, 2012)

I shut off the main and plug mine into the welder outlet, works great.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

242424 said:


> I shut off the main and plug mine into the welder outlet, works great.


Which is called back feeding your panel. This is very dangerous, and violates code. The problem is, it is possible to feed your power outside your home if you forget to shut off the main, or if someone else turns it back on. The interlock capabilities of a cutover switch prevent that possibility.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

242424 said:


> I shut off the main and plug mine into the welder outlet, works great.


As a retired firefighter and licensed electrician, I would recommend you do yourself and your family a safety favor and install a transfer switch. It may work, but one wrong move could lead to disaster.


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## 242424 (Mar 22, 2012)

I sometimes drive over the speed limit too. lol


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

You guys are funny, Ground your generator, meet code, LOL

Sure I wouldn't back feed if you don't know what your doing., Like one said Transfer switch. :righton:

But codes and grounding, Gimmie a break!

I use a protable 10,000 watt generator everyday on many different jobs, you honestly think any of that is required?

Its NOT!

Don't touch it if you don't know what your doing, just like the same goes for the morons who run their generator indoors.
Sit in the dark!


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

https://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_Hurricane_Facts/grounding_port_generator.pdf

Grounding Requirements for Portable
and Vehicle-mounted Generators

Under the following conditions, OSHA
directs (29 CFR 1926.404(f)(3)(i)) t*hat the frame of a portable generator need not be
grounded (connected to earth) and that the
frame may serve as the ground (in place of
the earth):
• The generator supplies only equipment
mounted on the generator and/or cord and
plug-connected equipment through
receptacles mounted on the generator,*
§ 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(A), and

• The noncurrent-carrying metal parts of
equipment (such as the fuel tank, the internal
combustion engine, and the generator's
housing) are bonded to the generator
frame, and the equipment grounding conductor
terminals (of the power receptacles
that are a part of [mounted on] the generator)
are bonded to the generator frame,
§ 1926.404

*Thus, rather than connect to a grounding*
*electrode system, such as a driven ground*
*rod, the generator's frame replaces the*
*grounding electrode.*


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

carl6 said:


> Which is called back feeding your panel. This is very dangerous, and violates code. The problem is, it is possible to feed your power outside your home if you forget to shut off the main, or if someone else turns it back on. The interlock capabilities of a cutover switch prevent that possibility.


I've done just that for many folks who were out of power and it always makes me nervous. But, when people need power, that is the path of least resistance. After the snowstorm before Sandy and then Sandy, none of our local stores had electric dryer plugs or receptacles left in them.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

damondlt said:


> You guys are funny, Ground your generator, meet code, LOL
> 
> Sure I wouldn't back feed if you don't know what your doing., Like one said Transfer switch. :righton:
> 
> ...


I've never seen anyone run a gennie indoors, but I have seen people using hibachis indoors. Same result, just takes longer. Morons abound.

Rich


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

242424 said:


> I shut off the main and plug mine into the welder outlet, works great.





carl6 said:


> Which is called back feeding your panel. This is very dangerous, and violates code. The problem is, it is possible to feed your power outside your home if you forget to shut off the main, or if someone else turns it back on. The interlock capabilities of a cutover switch prevent that possibility.


Not only that, but to plug it into the welder outlet, you must use a suicide or widowmaker cord.

Do it right.


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## 242424 (Mar 22, 2012)

Herdfan said:


> Not only that, but to plug it into the welder outlet, you must use a suicide or widowmaker cord.
> 
> Do it right.


eh I don't really love her that much anyway.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

242424 said:


> eh I don't really love her that much anyway.


That cracked me up!

Rich


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