# When Will L211 Spool? - TODAY! (Tuesday 12/7)



## Mark Lamutt

I've closed the L189 thread because L189 is a thing of the past. I told you in that thread that the delay in sending L189 is a driver issue. But, I just received word today that the Eldon team isn't just waiting around for the new driver code to be delivered. They are forging ahead, with a couple of items that we have wanted for a VERY long time...So, while the release is in fact delayed until after Thanksgiving, I can very honestly say that this time, the delay will be worth the wait... 

More after extensive testing...


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## Dustin_Moore

OTA Guide data here we come......er come to us I mean.

Edit: If the Eldon team is in the UK...then they can work all week next week. redcoats


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## scpanel

I'm guessing local channel map down too!


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## Mark Lamutt

Gee, I didn't say that, did I? :lol:


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## mwgiii

Yea!

I won't whine & moan anymore.

At least until after Thanksgiving.:lol:


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## Cyclone

When you said "Driver Issue", do you mean the software driver for the video card to handle the "blue line" type of issues?


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## deweybrunner

"AFTER THANKSGIVING" could mean, shortly after, or could mean next year?


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## Mark Lamutt

Cyclone - yes, although "video card" isn't really the correct terminology.

dewey - the current schedule is "soon" after Thanksgiving. I do have a specific date, but you're not going to get it out of me because specific dates are a bad thing...


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## mwgiii

Aww, Mark.

Without a specific date, how is this thread going to grow to 255 posts and over 15,000 views?:grin:


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## Scott Greczkowski

Mark Lamutt said:


> I do have a specific date, but you're not going to get it out of me because specific dates are a bad thing...


Yes they are. I wish Dish could learn that lesson.


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## tweaver999

:nono: 
The phrase "driver problem" makes me worry... After 30+ years in the computer busines, I know that a driver is one of the most important and difficult modules to get running correctly....ie timing, etc.... I HOPE we see this fix this year... Mark thanks for all the input and work...

:nono2: :nono2: :nono2:


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## FaxMan

In honor of the new thread, I thought I'd change my Avatar.  

Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of my cats. :grin:


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## Mike123abc

Maybe Eldon can pull off the ultimate coup and get NBR working before it is released to the 522. If they get in channel mapping and OTA guide data in the next release, Dish Home and NBR should be all that is really left...


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## Slordak

Stop fantasizing.

We have the same issue where I work with multiple software platforms, which is that the one platform is the standard platform and gets all the attention and tweaks (but all the products based on it are evolutionary rather than revolutionary), while another platform is semi-revolutionary or at least newer but also is lacking in many ways since it hasn't been evolving over the last 5 years.

Hence, to expect anything to show up first on the 921 is really dreaming; it's just not the Dish Network standard product platform.


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## BobMurdoch

It's feeling like Groundhog Day around here again...... (The Bill Murray variety, not the rodent seeing his shadow one)

The next BIG fix that will get rid of ALL our major gripes is RIGHT around the corner. At this point, I'd settle for them not screwing things up any worse...... (like the threatened removal of the commercial skip that some Congressmen are contemplating, and that Tivo is implementing)


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## jsanders

Code doesn't evolve, it is written by programmers. :icon_cof:


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## tahoerob

L188 to L210..........thats a lot of changes!!!!!!!


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## boylehome

Mark Lamutt said:


> I've closed the L189 thread because L189 is a thing of the past.


I got this one right everyone! I said that we would get L189 on the 12th of Nevurary. And, what are the chance of getting L210. Remember Mark said, "AFTER Thanksgiving" that may be defined as a long time.


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## Jerry G

Has the 1080i 4:3 understretch been fixed in the upcoming software? You may not be able to determine this if you view on a CRT set, as a CRT usually has enough overscan to hide the thin side bars. An LCD or plasma will show this bug, introduced by Dish in a recent 921 update.


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## sgt940

So the video driver isn't available for L189 but it is for L210, is 210 so different it has it's own video driver?


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## Mike123abc

sgt940 said:


> So the video driver isn't available for L189 but it is for L210, is 210 so different it has it's own video driver?


More likely instead of waiting around for the device manufacturer to release a fixed device driver they decided to go ahead and put the new features in and when they finally get the new device driver they will have to test everything anyways, may as well test it all with the new features.


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## Mark Lamutt

Miek123abc - Ding...

Tahoerob - yup...

JerryG - couldn't tell you because I'm using a CRT display device (RPTV).

boylehome - right now I don't think it's going to be very long after Thanksgiving before you see this. If you'll recall, there were 2 dates thrown out during the tech forum. The first has now been missed. They're still trying to make the 2nd one.


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## JM Anthony

Mark Lamutt said:


> ...So, while the release is in fact delayed until after Thanksgiving, I can very honestly say that this time, the delay will be worth the wait...
> 
> More after extensive testing...


With all due respect to Mark, I remember when E* said 921's would be shipping before the holidays (fill in your favorite holiday and year). I for one am not keeping my hopes up for too much too soon. Call me jaded (just don't call me late for dinner).


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## ocnier

BobMurdoch said:


> It's feeling like Groundhog Day around here again...... (The Bill Murray variety, not the rodent seeing his shadow one)
> 
> The next BIG fix that will get rid of ALL our major gripes is RIGHT around the corner. At this point, I'd settle for them not screwing things up any worse...... (like the threatened removal of the commercial skip that some Congressmen are contemplating, and that Tivo is implementing)


Just remember Bob, "don't drive angry" :lol:


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## Mark Lamutt

JM Anthony said:


> With all due respect to Mark, I remember when E* said 921's would be shipping before the holidays (fill in your favorite holiday and year). I for one am not keeping my hopes up for too much too soon. Call me jaded (just don't call me late for dinner).


 I do understand, John. No worries from me on that.


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## BobinStLouis

We bought a very buggy product. How can any of us be happy about anything? And this seems to be the only board finding some kind of positive out of this situation. I would be happy if Dish would authorize the return of my 921. Their excuse "it is like micorsoft delivering XP, 98, 95 with all the bugs". A BIG Difference here: Windows (i.e. Microsoft) has to offer a product that can work effectively and effeciently with 1,000's and 10 of 1,000's of other programs. Dish only has to work nicely on a supposedly designed internal product? Return my money - it does not deliver what has been promised in a $1,000 receiver.


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## DonLandis

_"Dish only has to work nicely on a supposedly designed internal product? Return my money - it does not deliver what has been promised in a $1,000 receiver. "_

Not exactly! Most of the problems, nearly all of them, have been associated with a "product" that is in total external control, Off air signals. E* has absolutely no control over the local station's signal. They can only design a receiver based on industry expected practices AND FCC regulations. Unfortunately, many of the aspects of the ATSC signal are not regulated and stations are free to broadcast these signals as they see fit. The latest and greatest controller of what we can and can't see on off air signals is PSIP which most receivers, today, need to function properly as expected by you the user. PSIP has only been recently adopted as a standard FCC regulated in August 1, 2004. In addition, only a small part of the PSIP standard is now regulated. A major part of it is still voluntary such as program data info. The part that is regulated is channel mapping, station call sign and clock data. Plus, that standard that is regulated is not automatically in place at every station on day one. Many stations are still not in compliance with the standard and are actually on a probationaly period as they ramp up to meet the new regulation. Gone are the days when receivers worked in the absence of PSIP. The FCC was simply asleep with this as an adopted regulation early on. PSIP should have been made a part of the ATSC regulated signal at least 3 years prior.
If you don't like the idea of using a product that is working with a technology in transition, then may I suggest you stick to old fashion analog TV until the product is ready for your demands of excellence.

BTW- in fairness to E*, the 921 was PSIP independent prior to July 2004. Making the 921 PSIP dependent was done in a software upgrade in mid July and it coincided with the FCC ruling that went into place in August. You might wonder why E* did that. I believe it was a necessary step in preparing for all the other features in development for OTA such as the guides and navigation requirements.


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## kstevens

DonLandis said:


> _"Dish only has to work nicely on a supposedly designed internal product? Return my money - it does not deliver what has been promised in a $1,000 receiver. "_
> 
> Not exactly! Most of the problems, nearly all of them, have been associated with a "product" that is in total external control, Off air signals. E* has absolutely no control over the local station's signal. They can only design a receiver based on industry expected practices AND FCC regulations. Unfortunately, many of the aspects of the ATSC signal are not regulated and stations are free to broadcast these signals as they see fit. The latest and greatest controller of what we can and can't see on off air signals is PSIP which most receivers, today, need to function properly as expected by you the user. PSIP has only been recently adopted as a standard FCC regulated in August 1, 2004. In addition, only a small part of the PSIP standard is now regulated. A major part of it is still voluntary such as program data info. The part that is regulated is channel mapping, station call sign and clock data. Plus, that standard that is regulated is not automatically in place at every station on day one. Many stations are still not in compliance with the standard and are actually on a probationaly period as they ramp up to meet the new regulation. Gone are the days when receivers worked in the absence of PSIP. The FCC was simply asleep with this as an adopted regulation early on. PSIP should have been made a part of the ATSC regulated signal at least 3 years prior.
> If you don't like the idea of using a product that is working with a technology in transition, then may I suggest you stick to old fashion analog TV until the product is ready for your demands of excellence.
> 
> BTW- in fairness to E*, the 921 was PSIP independent prior to July 2004. Making the 921 PSIP dependent was done in a software upgrade in mid July and it coincided with the FCC ruling that went into place in August. You might wonder why E* did that. I believe it was a necessary step in preparing for all the other features in development for OTA such as the guides and navigation requirements.


Not to mention, anybody investing 1000 bucks in anything ought to have done research on the product. If you bought it recently and you didn't know the existing bugs with the 921 then it is entirely your fault. If you were one of the first purchasers, you might beable to be forgiven, but with E*s track record, you should have know there would be a lot of problems. I just purchased the 921 2 weeks ago and I'm quite happy with it, especially since I got it for the reduced 549 price. 

Ken


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## boylehome

kstevens said:


> Not to mention, anybody investing 1000 bucks in anything ought to have done research on the product. If you bought it recently and you didn't know the existing bugs with the 921 then it is entirely your fault. If you were one of the first purchasers, you might beable to be forgiven, but with E*s track record, you should have know there would be a lot of problems. I just purchased the 921 2 weeks ago and I'm quite happy with it, especially since I got it for the reduced 549 price.  Ken


Ken, what is your point? I don't think that everyone who buys a 921 has access to DBSTalk.Com or other sites that goes into greater detail. Why would we have to forgive anyone who buys a 921? It isn't the buyers fault the unit has issues. The 921 buyers are more victims then suspects. Perhaps you should define E* track record for us? In closing, I would still feel the same about my 921 if I paid 10K, 1K, .5k or a dollar for it.


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## BobinStLouis

So in your reasoning - if you went out and bought a simple OTA receiver, you would be experiencing the same issues? No, not exactly - I had a Samsung OTA receiver prior to this 921 and it worked flawlessly? Again, you all just accept this and I think that to me is just a shame. 
And yes I did pay A Grand and yes "shame on me" for not researching enough before hand - i actually trusted the local satellite guy which would not return the model only after 2 weeks. He told me that it was a special order and sorry.


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## boylehome

BobinStLouis said:


> I did pay A Grand and yes "shame on me" for not researching enough before hand - i actually trusted the local satellite guy which would not return the model only after 2 weeks.


Bob, Shame on them, not you.


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## markcollins

Bob,you're right.Everybody(including me) seems to just coasting along hoping Dish will Finally fix the 921,If it's fixable.I'm beginning after a year of owning it and putting up with the flaws and statements from dish through this site to believe maybe it isn't.I'm just glad I stumbled on this site right after I bought the 921.Here you can atleast hear from other owners about their problems and compare.Then you know it's not your setup or receiver uniquely.I feel for those people out there who are suffering along with only the bad info and run arounds from dish.When a 921 is sold there should be including with the setup guide the address to this web site!I'm just a push the buttons novice,but there seems to be some fairly satellite savy people here to get info from.Even though some of it is over my head.


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## gsartori

kstevens said:


> Not to mention, anybody investing 1000 bucks in anything ought to have done research on the product. If you bought it recently and you didn't know the existing bugs with the 921 then it is entirely your fault.
> Ken


Nooo! I also purchased the 921 and I'm also quite happy with it, read my posts. To say though, that it's the customer fault and he should be more informed is TOTALLY ridiculous. A company has to be responsible and liable for what they put in the market. Are we kidding here?


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## deweybrunner

I purchased my 921 in Jan. and some problems back then. With the software updates I have NO problems and am happy. I just can't understand where the problems are unless they are with ota reception, which is not the 921 fault. If you don't have the proper antenna hook up you will have problems with reception and recording. I get all hd and can record anything I want with no problems. Now, Iwould like the guide info, which should be coming after the first of Dec. I just wish I had paid the $549. instead of the $1000., but am not sorry I purchased it then. I really enjoy all the features of the 921. All these Bashers should look at problems they might have created, or do not understand how to operate the unit.


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## boylehome

deweybrunner said:


> All these Bashers should look at problems they might have created, or do not understand how to operate the unit.


dewey,
perhaps quiet a few of us got lemons. I haven't created problems for my 921. I do understand how to operate the unit. I would like to swap 921's with you. Or, if you think that I would jinx yours, come to my place and use my 921 for a while then you will have a better understanding of the problems that exist. Maybe you should take a look at the 921 bug report forum. There are real issues posted. Some bash, others complain, some read, and others deny.


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## kstevens

gsartori said:


> Nooo! I also purchased the 921 and I'm also quite happy with it, read my posts. To say though, that it's the customer fault and he should be more informed is TOTALLY ridiculous. A company has to be responsible and liable for what they put in the market. Are we kidding here?


Your statement is totally ridculous. I NEVER make any major purchase without doing the needed research first. I always like to know what I'm getting into. Buying the 921 is no different to me than buying a car. I've done the research, I know what I'm looking for and how much I'll pay, and when I get home, I don't complain that my miata can't out accelerate a mustang gt.

Ken


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## tahoerob

Sounds like the BIGGEST problem is Dish treating the 921 like some out of the ordinary product. If you had a problem with a 301 or 505 receiver, you can return it for another one. Similarly, if you went to Best Buy and bought a DVD player or OTA tuner and it did not work correctly, you could EASILY bring it back for a refund or replacement. The biggest DISSERVICE from Dish is not treating the high end customer (921/AEP/HD, etc) with white glove service. You cannot expect to run a business with defective products WITH a warranty and NOT honor the warranty. 
If this were a car or a prescription drug with similar level of problems, the 921 would be RECALLED/PULLED off the market.
Now with that said, I am overall pleased with my 921 despite taking a YEAR after purchase to have it work as advertised.


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## Anthony Falcone

Would you complain if your Miata kept stalling out on you every once in a while the way the 921 locks up every once in a while?

He's only had the 921 for a couple of weeks, we'll see if he doesn't complain after he has to reboot a few times .


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## boylehome

gsartori said:


> A company has to be responsible and liable for what they put in the market.


They are and should be. There even exists the, "Lemon Law." A person can do tons of research and make the buy but still end up with a lemon or have continued problems that need correcting. Sometimes the entire model line turns out bad. Usually when this happens, there are recalls, etc. or the manufacture goes out of business. There are many other factors that make companies responsible for their products.


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## Jerry G

kstevens said:


> Not to mention, anybody investing 1000 bucks in anything ought to have done research on the product. If you bought it recently and you didn't know the existing bugs with the 921 then it is entirely your fault. If you were one of the first purchasers, you might beable to be forgiven, but with E*s track record, you should have know there would be a lot of problems. I just purchased the 921 2 weeks ago and I'm quite happy with it, especially since I got it for the reduced 549 price.
> 
> Ken


I don't know how to break this to you, but not everyone who purchases satellite equipment reads the various satellite forums at all, let alone live on the forums as some of the participants do.

Many, if not most, Dish customers get their information from a store or Dish's website and have no friggin' clue that these sat forums even exist. They ask some questions and expect reasonable answers from Dish or their salesmen. And they have every right to expect that Dish, or any other company, will sell a product that works reasonable well and reasonably reliably. Yet Dish issued the 921 and 811 in a far from a mature state.

And considering that I was one of the first to purchase a 921 last December, I'd like to thank you for possibly forgiving me for not knowing the depth of the bugs in the 921 (and 811). Sure, I know Dish's track record. But I was totally unprepared for the monumental incompetence demonstrated in these POS products.

P.S. How about those of use who elected to stay with Dish and get the 921 with the promise of Firewire, only to find that Dish decided not to implement it? Are we also forgiven for complaining?


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## Jerry G

kstevens said:


> Your statement is totally ridculous. I NEVER make any major purchase without doing the needed research first. I always like to know what I'm getting into. Buying the 921 is no different to me than buying a car. I've done the research, I know what I'm looking for and how much I'll pay, and when I get home, I don't complain that my miata can't out accelerate a mustang gt.
> 
> Ken


There's a huge difference in doing research into the capabilities and features of a product and the serious bugs that a product has that may not be generally known.

I'll bet that if your Miata demonstrated serious problems, you wouldn't be blaming yourself for bad research. You'd be screaming on the satellite forums.


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## tahoerob

Anthony Falcone said:


> Would you complain if your Miata kept stalling out on you every once in a while the way the 921 locks up every once in a while?
> 
> He's only had the 921 for a couple of weeks, we'll see if he doesn't complain after he has to reboot a few times .


Of course the irony now is that most of the lockup/reboot issues have been fixed. Those of us with the first wave of boxes had to reboot almost DAILY the first few months.

It is a much better product now compared to Jan. 04.


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## SimpleSimon

tahoerob said:


> Of course the irony now is that most of the lockup/reboot issues have been fixed. Those of us with the first wave of boxes had to reboot almost DAILY the first few months.
> 
> It is a much better product now compared to Jan. 04.


 Truth


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## jsanders

tahoerob said:


> Of course the irony now is that most of the lockup/reboot issues have been fixed. Those of us with the first wave of boxes had to reboot almost DAILY the first few months.
> 
> It is a much better product now compared to Jan. 04.


I got mine on January 19th. That was a bad day. I had to reboot it at least 5 times that night. Only watched about 30 minutes or so of live content. It kept freezing up, just watching live TV. I'm sure glad those days are over.


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## kstevens

Jerry G said:


> There's a huge difference in doing research into the capabilities and features of a product and the serious bugs that a product has that may not be generally known.
> 
> I'll bet that if your Miata demonstrated serious problems, you wouldn't be blaming yourself for bad research. You'd be screaming on the satellite forums.


No, that's why I waited over a year to purchase the 921, because I did do the research and felt it wasn't ready for prime time last year......... I also did research on the Miata and the RX8. I read every forum I could find and in the end chose the miata because the rx8 was having a number of problems I couldn't live with (such as extremely poor gas milage).

Ken


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## kstevens

By the way, in the 2 weeks that I've owned it, I not had to reboot yet. And my miata hasn't needed rebooting yet either


Ken


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## SimpleSimon

kstevens said:


> By the way, in the 2 weeks that I've owned it, I not had to reboot yet. And my miata hasn't needed rebooting yet either
> 
> Ken


 I've got news for ya - your 921 has rebooted itself more than once in that time. With all the research you've done  you already know that, right?


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## kstevens

Yep I do know that. If You read my post, I said that "I" have not had to reboot it. Their is a difference, just in case you couldn't figure it out yourself.


Ken


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## SimpleSimon

I wasn't sure - the missing word ('have') implied a lack of specifics regarding the statement.


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## tahoerob

FYI,

I had my caller ID stop working 2 weeks ago. I thought that since the 921 is supposed to reboot itself every early AM, even if turned off, that it was an unfixable problem until next release.
HOWEVER, I was still awake at 2am the other day & the 921 spontaneosly went into reboot cycle while I was watching a live program. Then the caller ID started working!!! That was my first reboot in a long time.

ALSO, I was fast forwarding at the end of a DVR program using the 30sec advance a few days ago & it FROZE!!!! WOW :eek2: Again, had not seen that behavior in a few months & ironic considering this recent forum discussion :lol: 
I had to REBOOT to fix!!!! (did smart card in/out)


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## P Smith

tahoerob said:


> L188 to L210..........thats a lot of changes!!!!!!!


NO, that's different rule here - for all receivers the versions counting in one row.


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## P Smith

deweybrunner said:


> "AFTER THANKSGIVING" could mean, shortly after, or could mean next year?


As for today first 63 lucky [?] PVR921 getting the new L2.10 - I saw the list on other site.


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## Mark Lamutt

P Smith said:


> As for today first 63 lucky [?] PVR921 getting the new L2.10 - I saw the list on other site.


 Huh?


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## P Smith

I could repost the serial numbers from other site if you really need it.


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## markcollins

kstevens,With all respect,Two wek owner. [deleted] and your remarks.Put up with the CRAP 1year plus owners have put up with then you might worth reading your opinion.


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## bbriggs

Not sure about the plus 1 year part, markcollins, but that's an opinion that does evoke some emotion and sympathy.


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## kstevens

SimpleSimon said:


> I wasn't sure - the missing word ('have') implied a lack of specifics regarding the statement.


Interesting, so you can figure it out now, does it normally take you this long?

Ken


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## KAØCSL

In this new run of hex will they be addressing the protection lock issue and are they addressing the analog local OTA Signal Meter Issue? The signal meter issue is probably related to the OTA data stream. If thats the case please let us know. It seems like the D-OTA meter sync's on the datastream. If so, it should be modified to measure the RF signal. The S meter should be independent of the 921's ability to decode the data stream. This way it opens the front end and would be adding gain in a nutty way. If your sampling bits to obtain a lock. You may not be able to receive a signal that is there and is viewable. But the 921 wont let you see it. For what its worth. I am just wondering if the new spool will have the issues addressed? Will I get my prize???


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## boylehome

KAØCSL said:


> are they addressing the analog local OTA Signal Meter Issue? The signal meter issue is probably related to the OTA data stream.


I didn't think that the meter would work with analog. I thought it was for digital signals only? Most likely I'm way off here, but isn't the measuring of signal strength for digital and analog a different process?


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## Dustin_Moore

P Smith said:


> As for today first 63 lucky [?] PVR921 getting the new L2.10 - I saw the list on other site.


Wha??? I didn't see this anywhere.


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## Mark Lamutt

And you won't, either. I believe that this is referring to the beta group getting L210, although the dates are wrong.


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## Dustin_Moore

Mark Lamutt said:


> And you won't, either. I believe that this is referring to the beta group getting L210, although the dates are wrong.


Thanks for the clarification. Only 63 beta testers?


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## Mark Lamutt

Nope, that's not correct either.


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## jsanders

kstevens said:


> Interesting, so you can figure it out now, does it normally take you this long?


How do you know it took SimpleSimon that long to figure it out? The time duration is simply the time between posts. I'm sure SimpleSimon has a life, and doesn't spend all of his time waiting for new posts to appear on this message board so he can answer quickly.....

But, let's do a little quiz on your research then.....



kstevens said:


> By the way, in the 2 weeks that I've owned it, I not had to reboot yet. And my miata hasn't needed rebooting yet either


That is what started it. SimpleSimon alluded that there was more to it than that, but he was purposely not specific as to why, to find out about how much research you had done (according to your claims). You weren't that specific either. So, why not add some details for us. Why did he say what he did? And secondly, how do you prove the validity of what he said by using the 921? There is a simple method. For extra credit, you could tell us how DonLandis solved the problem, or even for extra extra credit, maybe you could tell us all what my signature used to be. They are all related to this subject.


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## ggw2000

It's been quite awhile since I have seen any posts on "0" second recordings on HD channels (CBSHD/TNTHD). Am I the only one still having these problems on SAT recordings? My 921 appears to refuse to record "Jag" and "CSI" is a hit-miss situation. Last night it also came up with "0" on The Wool Cap showing on TNTHD  .

I have tried different scenarios to try and figure out what the h*ll is causing this but have came up empty to date.

Mark, is this a known problem that is going to be fixed in L210?

Now back to the above title. I have had my 921 for the past 10 months and have gone thru all the trials and tribulations of other long term owners. I have also owned ALOT of "new to the market" electronics gear over a very longtime, and without a doubt I have never loved or hated any piece of gear as much as this unit. When it works it is absolutely a beautiful thing, when it continually screws up I could almost yank it out and take the shotgun to it! But that would be throwing a $1000 down the toilet  .

It has been a longtime since a S/W upgrade and I hope that L210 fixes the above problem and a host of others that continue to bite us in the butt.

Gerry


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## KAØCSL

boylehome said:


> I didn't think that the meter would work with analog. I thought it was for digital signals only? Most likely I'm way off here, but isn't the measuring of signal strength for digital and analog a different process?


Well the signal is transmitted is in the UHF spectrum, aka RF (Analog). The data contained in the RF transmission has digital information, audio information and now the OTA data stream contained within its envelope. None of the signals contained in the UHF RF transmission are at the same frequency, nor are they as high in frequency as the UHF RF signal. The more information sent in the envelope, aka riding piggyback on the UHF analog signal. The wider the bandwith required to get the information from point a to B. An HDTV signal takes up a wider frequency range or more channels to get its information from the transmitter to the receiver. Normally a meter measures the transmitted frequency not the data contained in it. You have probably noticed that when tuning on the 921 you have to wait a long time on the OTA stations. It seems to lock up. It isn't locked up. Its waiting for the data to be decoded and then you get a lock. It shouldn't need a lock. If the hex was modified it would work much like your TV. If your input signal is weak you will get a Yuki snowed picture or pixelation on HDTV. Its an easy fix just look at the input in microvolts and use that for your meter and eliminate the digital sampling to obtain a lock. Meters are analog. A Digital Multi Meter like a Fluke 87 is an analog meter that displays information in digital on an LCD display. The crazy thing is the LCD Display is analog and digital. It uses a dc to dc converter to supply its backplane and a digital decoder IC decides what segment to illuminate. The digital decoder converts an analog signal to a digital display. NUTZ HUH? I think Dish may be using the S meter to measure the amplitude of the digital data. Depending on the modulation method used PCM PWM, ect. Open the receiver and measure the signal that counts. Hope this helps. I know nothing about their equipment. But as a kid I loved to crack hex with my ISO-7816.

cul om and 73's


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## Michael P

KAØCSL said:


> Well the signal is transmitted is in the UHF spectrum, aka RF (Analog).


 HUH?

I agree that the RF carrier is "analog", however that carrier is suppressed in 8VSB. What is broadcast on a digital TV signal are sidebands full of digital data. It takes the entire 6 MHz channel to contain these sidebands (as opposed to the analog audio and video subcarriers on NTSC which had some empty guard-bands between them).

I have yet to figure out exactly what the meter on the 921 is measuring. I have one local station that I cannot get a steady lock on (I need a better antenna for one thing and the station is transmitting on an STA at only 1kw at the moment, but being only 4.5 miles from the transmitter, I should be getting a lock on that signal). The meter fluxuates from 125 to 70 to 0 back up to 55 - Red, then Green, then red over and over in a predictable pattern. I tried a UHF preamp, but the meter did not change the pattern in any way.


----------



## SteveB

I have to reboot almost daily, which is not easy since I put in the garage below my TV because of the LOUD fan. 

Steve Bridges


----------



## ctdish

The workings of most signal strength meters are discussed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4567425#post4567425
John


----------



## jsanders

Michael P said:


> HUH?
> 
> I agree that the RF carrier is "analog", however that carrier is suppressed in 8VSB. What is broadcast on a digital TV signal are sidebands full of digital data. It takes the entire 6 MHz channel to contain these sidebands (as opposed to the analog audio and video subcarriers on NTSC which had some empty guard-bands between them).
> 
> I have yet to figure out exactly what the meter on the 921 is measuring. I have one local station that I cannot get a steady lock on (I need a better antenna for one thing and the station is transmitting on an STA at only 1kw at the moment, but being only 4.5 miles from the transmitter, I should be getting a lock on that signal). The meter fluxuates from 125 to 70 to 0 back up to 55 - Red, then Green, then red over and over in a predictable pattern. I tried a UHF preamp, but the meter did not change the pattern in any way.


It doesn't even matter so much what they are measuring because the scale has been normalized into a unitless scale that goes from 0 to 125 or so.

If your meter fluctuates that way with a regular periodicity, I would suspect you are getting some sort of multipath issue, it can easily attenuate the signal, and cause a gain to happen. Do you have a directional antenna, or an omni-directional one? The pre-amp won't help you there, as it amplifies signals (direct and reflected) and noise, with the goal of compensating for line loss in the cable.


----------



## boylehome

ggw2000 said:


> Am I the only one still having these problems on SAT recordings?


I still get them and I did some testing. What I found is that if there is no signal, you will get a "0" time recording.


----------



## ocnier

Mark, i hope it's sooner rather than later after thanksgiving for L210. I would really like some more closure to some of the more blatant issues.


----------



## SimpleSimon

jsanders said:


> How do you know it took SimpleSimon that long to figure it out? The time duration is simply the time between posts. I'm sure SimpleSimon has a life, and doesn't spend all of his time waiting for new posts to appear on this message board so he can answer quickly.....


Nah - I don't have a life - just look at my posting rate. :lol: 


jsanders said:


> But, let's do a little quiz on your research then.....


:up:


----------



## Jason Kragt

jsanders said:


> It doesn't even matter so much what they are measuring because the scale has been normalized into a unitless scale that goes from 0 to 125 or so.


I disagree. Does the 921 scale measure signal STRENGTH or siganl QUALITY?

If it measures signal strength, then a powerful signal with strong reflections ("ghosts") would display high on the scale, yet not be viewable in digital. If it measures signal quality, then it is probably counting the number of good packets it can decode relative to the bad packets.

Can anyone confirm which of the two the 921 is measuring?


----------



## jsanders

Jason Kragt said:


> If it measures signal strength, then a powerful signal with strong reflections ("ghosts") would display high on the scale, yet not be viewable in digital. If it measures signal quality, then it is probably counting the number of good packets it can decode relative to the bad packets.


That isn't quite how it works. When the signal bounces, the reflection changes phase. What do you get when you add a signal and its inverse? Nothing! That is the worst case scenario. The direct signal and the reflection can in some cases be addative, but more likely than not, they attenuate. This resulting loss can change based on where the point of reflection is. Hence, you see the signal strength meter going up and down.

Now, consider this, if they can't mitigate the multipath, how likely do you think it is that they can separate it, measure it, and then give you a measurement of signal "quality". If they could do that, then they would be able to look at just the direct signal and there would be no problems at all!

So, your signal strength is the combination of direct and reflected signals. The the peak meter strength and the lowest signal strength, along with the period that the meter oscillates tell you about the multipath quality.

That is why I asked if an omnidirectional antenna, or a directional antenna was being used. The directional antenna is about the best chance you have at rejecting reflected signals that aren't part of the antenna pattern.


----------



## Scott Greczkowski

I just watched the retailer chat, after the chat they had a tech update and were talking about remotes, they said that the 921 now has the ability to teach IR learning remotes...

Umm that software isn't out yet guys. 

But I know a feature that will be in the next version.


----------



## Eagles

Scott Greczkowski said:


> I just watched the retailer chat, after the chat they had a tech update and were talking about remotes, they said that the 921 now has the ability to teach IR learning remotes...
> 
> Umm that software isn't out yet guys.
> 
> But I know a feature that will be in the next version.


Scott, I'm confused by this statement. Are you saying that the 921 remote will be able teach an IR learning remote, or somehow the 921 receiver itself will have the ability to teach the remote? If it's the former, how can a SW update change the capabilities or features of the 921 remote?


----------



## Cyclone

It likely behaves like the 811 does. The 921 (box itself) will transmit the IR code when the button is pressed on the UHF remote. The UHF remote won't be sending the IR to be learned.


----------



## ocnier

Cyclone said:


> It likely behaves like the 811 does. The 921 (box itself) will transmit the IR code when the button is pressed on the UHF remote. The UHF remote won't be sending the IR to be learned.


Could you clarify that a little more?  I don't have an 811.


----------



## FaxMan

ocnier said:


> Could you clarify that a little more?  I don't have an 811.


The 921 box itself will emit the appropriate IR signal. You'll put your learning remote in front of the 921 as if it were another remote. Press a button on the 921s remote and the IR signal will be sent to the learning remote.

=John


----------



## dishbacker

Just to add to this... in case you didn't know, the 921 (like most recent dish network boxes) has an IR emiter built into it. This allows you to attempt to control your external VCR (eek!) with a timer set on the 921 (also existed on my old 501) hoping to bounce the IR signal off of a wall / cabinet door / etc and getting to your VCR.

It has been discussed on previous chats (and available on the 811) the ability to press a button on your sat remote, which only sends UHF to the 921, and then the 921 will emit it out using IR so that you can learn keys on a learning remote. This will finally allow someone to learn the PIP keys that the old 501 (or similar remote) don't have.


----------



## Cyclone

I'd still like to see them use the IR emitter to sent commands to the only IR controlled antenna rotator controller box. This can allow the 921 to move an antenna when recording OTA channels. 

All the hardware is in place, the only thing needed is some software. Shame the 921 has a limited lifespan.


----------



## ocnier

Thanks guys, now I get it. Man, I just wish the software was in place now...


----------



## mwsmith2

dishbacker said:


> It has been discussed on previous chats (and available on the 811) the ability to press a button on your sat remote, which only sends UHF to the 921, and then the 921 will emit it out using IR so that you can learn keys on a learning remote. This will finally allow someone to learn the PIP keys that the old 501 (or similar remote) don't have.


Heheheh. You guys just aren't doing this right. My wife won't just let me run around and buy whatever gadget I want...I have to come up with a real reason for my next gizmo. I used the RF only remote as an excuse to sell my Sony AV-2100 and buy a Philips Pronto TSU2000. 

w00t!

Michael

P.S. the 2000's can be had on ebay for < $130


----------



## sgt940

Cyclone said:


> I'd still like to see them use the IR emitter to sent commands to the only IR controlled antenna rotator controller box. This can allow the 921 to move an antenna when recording OTA channels.
> 
> All the hardware is in place, the only thing needed is some software. Shame the 921 has a limited lifespan.


lets make the IR transmitter a learning IR as well than I can use it to fire my Panisonic DVD recorder or anything you want and they could drop all of the VCR codes.


----------



## sgt940

OK Mark at least give us a hint if the 210 testing is going well and if most of us will be happy with its new features?


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Testing is going well. We're going to need to see at least one more beta version to resolve a couple of issues surrounding the new rumored features, but if those couple of things get resolved before release, then I think the answer will be a resounding YES about you being happy with the new features.


----------



## tahoerob

Mark Lamutt said:


> Testing is going well. We're going to need to see at least one more beta version to resolve a couple of issues surrounding the new rumored features, but if those couple of things get resolved before release, then I think the answer will be a resounding YES about you being happy with the new features.


Please remind everyone the BEST procedure to INSTALL the new software after in downloads!! (ie reboot??)


----------



## Mark Lamutt

The new versions are supposed to automatically do the reboot once the software is downloaded, unless it's in use. The last few downloads I've taken, my 921 has always been in standby. Switching it on after the power light stops blinking shows the reboot process.


----------



## Jason Kragt

Mark Lamutt said:


> Testing is going well. We're going to need to see at least one more beta version to resolve a couple of issues surrounding the new rumored features, but if those couple of things get resolved before release, then I think the answer will be a resounding YES about you being happy with the new features.


It sounds like Dish has the opportunity to give us all a very nice Christmas present this year!


----------



## tahoerob

Mark Lamutt said:


> The new versions are supposed to automatically do the reboot once the software is downloaded, unless it's in use. The last few downloads I've taken, my 921 has always been in standby. Switching it on after the power light stops blinking shows the reboot process.


Does it give you the option to defer loading of new installation like the 500 series with an FYI pop up???
If it is automatic, it could be a problem if you want to watch a live show after download & did not already set a timer!!!


----------



## knealy

sgt940 said:


> lets make the IR transmitter a learning IR as well than I can use it to fire my Panisonic DVD recorder or anything you want and they could drop all of the VCR codes.


I'm not sure what you folks are referring to. I taught my Yamaha universal remote to talk to my 921 a long time ago and it still does. Also, in setting up the 921 I entered the code for my JVC VHS recorder and it will record and stop and so forth.

What am I missing?


----------



## sgt940

knealy said:


> I'm not sure what you folks are referring to. I taught my Yamaha universal remote to talk to my 921 a long time ago and it still does. Also, in setting up the 921 I entered the code for my JVC VHS recorder and it will record and stop and so forth.
> 
> What am I missing?


Yep works on my vcr too but the 921 does not have codes for any of the new DVD recorders on the market and my DVD is all I use to record on these days. So I have to set a manual timer to conicide with the 921 guide. (pain) and I have never know the to add new codes so why not let us teach the 921 the record code?


----------



## Mark Lamutt

tahoerob said:


> Does it give you the option to defer loading of new installation like the 500 series with an FYI pop up???
> If it is automatic, it could be a problem if you want to watch a live show after download & did not already set a timer!!!


 No, but it doesn't automatically reboot if it's doing something - ie like watching a live broadcast, or recording a timer. It only automatically reboots if it's in standby, and there isn't a timer set to fire.

Because of this, I would still recommend doing a cold boot after the software downloads.


----------



## knealy

sgt940 said:


> Yep works on my vcr too but the 921 does not have codes for any of the new DVD recorders on the market and my DVD is all I use to record on these days. So I have to set a manual timer to conicide with the 921 guide. (pain) and I have never know the to add new codes so why not let us teach the 921 the record code?


Now I understand.


----------



## srrobinson2

mwsmith2 said:


> Heheheh. You guys just aren't doing this right. My wife won't just let me run around and buy whatever gadget I want...I have to come up with a real reason for my next gizmo. I used the RF only remote as an excuse to sell my Sony AV-2100 and buy a Philips Pronto TSU2000.
> 
> w00t!
> 
> Michael
> 
> P.S. the 2000's can be had on ebay for < $130


I used my 508 remote to train my Sony RM (IR only) programmable remote to run my 921 receiver. The 508 remote will run the 921. The only difference is the HD/SD button, but the TV/Video button on the 508 sends out the correct code for that, so it all works.

I posted something 8-10 months ago about this.


----------



## tahoerob

Mark Lamutt said:


> No, but it doesn't automatically reboot if it's doing something - ie like watching a live broadcast, or recording a timer. It only automatically reboots if it's in standby, and there isn't a timer set to fire.
> 
> Because of this, I would still recommend doing a cold boot after the software downloads.


So if the unit is in standby & I turn it on after a download, I should see the reboot process? (assuming no timers)

If the unit is on when download finishes, then I should initiate a reboot?? or IF I turn it off & back on, will it automatically start reboot process??


----------



## bytre

It would be nice if the 921 can program remotes with discrete commands. I suppose that's probably too much to ask for.


----------



## kstevens

bytre said:


> It would be nice if the 921 can program remotes with discrete commands. I suppose that's probably too much to ask for.


To do that the remote would either have to have 2 buttons for each discrete command, or it would have to know at all times what the current state is so it can transmit the opposite. I don't see this likely to happen.

Ken


----------



## Jim_R

Well, it's after Thanksgiving, and it's Friday, any chance 210 will spool tonight?


----------



## Eagles

Jim_R said:


> Well, it's after Thanksgiving, and it's Friday, any chance 210 will spool tonight?


Based on what Mark said in this 
thread I doubt it


----------



## Mark Lamutt

I would be extremely surprised to see L210 spool this afternoon. We're still a little while before the target date that I know about.

Rob - if your 921 is in standby when the download happens, and then turn it on, you should see the reboot happening. I would force the reboot if you're using the 921 when you take the download, and it doesn't automatically reboot on it's own.

Also, when this one comes, I would also blow away all of your local digital channels and rescan. Enough has changed, that this may be necessary.


----------



## tahoerob

Do you know if the latest software addresses the loss of caller ID problem after frequent use that requires a deletion of history & reboot????


----------



## tnsprin

Mark Lamutt said:


> I've closed the L189 thread because L189 is a thing of the past. I told you in that thread that the delay in sending L189 is a driver issue. But, I just received word today that the Eldon team isn't just waiting around for the new driver code to be delivered. They are forging ahead, with a couple of items that we have wanted for a VERY long time...So, while the release is in fact delayed until after Thanksgiving, I can very honestly say that this time, the delay will be worth the wait...
> 
> More after extensive testing...


Mark where's the poll? My vote 12/24/04


----------



## boylehome

tnsprin said:


> Mark where's the poll? My vote 12/24/04


It will be on 11/31/04


----------



## Grandude

I bet it will be tomorrow!


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Rob, I'm not aware of that callerid problem, but it may fix it because callerid on my 921 is working perfectly (I don't have DSL or anything else that's different or strange on my phone line, though).

As for when, software never spools on the weekend (not even beta). Usually it spools towards the end of the week. Every once in a while, it spools at the beginning of the week, but don't count on that happening this week. Like I said, there are still a couple of things that need to be worked out before it's quite ready for primetime. It's close, but not quite there yet.


----------



## SimpleSimon

I always wondered why they wait until late in the week.

Then people that find problems have days to stew and get ticked off before they can get any help. :nono2:


----------



## Mark Lamutt

I think it's usually the end of the week because we're generally doing the final testing on the release candidate early in the week. And then it takes about a day to get the code up to the satellite for spooling.


----------



## SimpleSimon

But you see the point I'm making. They're spooling stuff based on their convienence, with little or no regard for how it may affect customers.

One example is the lack of control we have over whether a new release is forced on us. I can see spooling it if we can lock it out until we're ready - like most other E* receivers.

Also, look at the recent 522 test fiasco, and watch what happens wth 811 soon.

E* needs to buy a clue about handling new releases.


----------



## Jim_R

tnsprin said:


> Mark where's the poll? My vote 12/24/04


My vote is for 12/3.


----------



## tahoerob

Jim_R said:


> My vote is for 12/3.


DITTO


----------



## Dustin_Moore

12/17


----------



## mwsmith2

SimpleSimon said:


> But you see the point I'm making. They're spooling stuff based on their convienence, with little or no regard for how it may affect customers.


Of course it's at their convenience. They send it out when it's done. what you are saying is that if everything is finished and uploaded to the sat, on say, thursday or friday, they should wait until Monday to send it out?

Um, ok. 

Personally I feel they should send it out as soon as it's done *AND* have support staff standing by on the phones to help with any problems.

Michael


----------



## boylehome

mwsmith2 said:


> Personally I feel they should send it out as soon as it's done *AND* have support staff standing by on the phones to help with any problems.
> 
> Michael


Every update that I have received still has problems. It would be nice if they could provide an update that works with out any further problems. We are still getting continued delays on the next update because they are still having problems. What does this say about the software? Support staff standing by on the phones to help with any problems, now that is a good one!


----------



## Anthony Falcone

Most of the members of this forum already know more about Dish equipment than the entire "support staff" combined !


----------



## tahoerob

Anthony Falcone said:


> Most of the members of this forum already know more about Dish equipment than the entire "support staff" combined !


HOW TRUE!!!


----------



## SimpleSimon

mwsmith2 said:


> Of course it's at their convenience. They send it out when it's done. what you are saying is that if everything is finished and uploaded to the sat, on say, thursday or friday, they should wait until Monday to send it out? ...


YES!

Who's the paying customer here?

Or course, it was REALLY "done" when they think it is, this wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## DVDDAD

Simple Simon,

I rarely disagree with you, but I'd prefer to have the software as soon as it's ready. Why wait until Monday if it was ready on Thursday? I'd prefer to have have my OTA guide data, get rid of the blue line, or have any other improvement as soon as possible. Anyone here isn't going to call for support if there is a problem anyway; we'd just check these boards for answers to our questions.


----------



## BobMurdoch

Why do they feel the need to do these mega updates that always wind up getting delayed. Release incremental fixes that address one bug at a time and then adjust from there. It's the months that go by without improvement that drive us nuts....


----------



## rcarmer

BobMurdoch said:


> Why do they feel the need to do these mega updates that always wind up getting delayed. Release incremental fixes that address one bug at a time and then adjust from there. It's the months that go by without improvement that drive us nuts....


Well said Bob. I wouldn't care if there was an update every day. At least we would see an attempt to fix something! Incredibly poor service.


----------



## jsanders

rcarmer said:


> Well said Bob. I wouldn't care if there was an update every day. At least we would see an attempt to fix something! Incredibly poor service.


I'm pretty sure you would care if you got an update every day! There are some very good reasons that all of the beta builds don't make it through the pipeline to the consumer.


----------



## BobMurdoch

I didn't say every day....... I just meant that it would be better to get a blue line fix one week then measure the CSR calls, then do the OTA fix the next week etc..... Instead of this mega release that KEEPS getting bumped because of beta feedback which then stalls the whole shebang........


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Actually, Bob, the blue line fix IS what is stalling the process.

If the world were a perfect place, and the code was completely modular so that none of it affected any other piece of code, then a weekly release might be feasible. They'd still be on the monthly release schedule here if it wasn't for the damn driver. But at least, they haven't been sitting on their hands, waiting for it to get resolved and not doing anything else. They had the perfect excuse for not adding in the additional features that you're going to see here shortly, but they didn't take it. They went ahead with it, and to me from my perspective, that's a positive thing.

Weekly releases would cut beta test time down to about 24 hours. You have no idea how bad that would have been if that'd been SOP.

Just my rant from the inside looking out...


----------



## BobMurdoch

OK, I'm usually one of the patient users (and I've been accused of being an apologiost or pom pom waver by many of the vitriolic D* fans), but they've had a year to get this thing right and they seem like they aren't making any headway to getting this thing at least stable. Maybe you are seeing more from the inside, but out here they are still coming off as inept (saying that they are discontinued and chopping the price in half didn't help either for those of us who paid full price for a unit that looks like it will be soon pushed to the failed "Dishplayer-esque" heap of products that held promise but got kicked to the curb... this one is even worse since they ONLY started shipping these things in quantity last quarter.... Dishplayer had about 2.5 years before they killed it)


----------



## Rodney

Mark,

Any idea when the driver to repair the blue line problem will be ready?


----------



## jsanders

BobMurdoch said:


> Maybe you are seeing more from the inside, but out here they are still coming off as inept (saying that they are discontinued and chopping the price in half didn't help either for those of us who paid full price for a unit that looks like it will be soon pushed to the failed "Dishplayer-esque" heap of products that held promise but got kicked to the curb... this one is even worse since they ONLY started shipping these things in quantity last quarter.... Dishplayer had about 2.5 years before they killed it)


Actually, you can still pay full price for one today if you want! I saw them at Fry's electronics in stock for $999, I verified the price in their computer too. I argued with the sales guy for a few minutes that he was ripping people off with that price, he didn't believe any brick and mortar store would sell it for that price. I sure hope nobody actually buys one of those.


----------



## P Smith

I got a word from my source - the L210 version removed from stream and Dish testing real beta version now.


----------



## jsanders

P Smith said:


> I got a word from my source - the L210 version removed from stream and Dish testing real beta version now.


Could you elaborate on what that means? If L210 was removed from the "stream", how does it get to the beta testing units?


----------



## mwsmith2

In my short time here, I have learned to ignore posts by P Smith, as they are always cryptic and he never answers questions about them. Furthermore his "news" is usually shortly refuted as being incorrect by the real folks here.

Michael


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Rodney said:


> Mark,
> 
> Any idea when the driver to repair the blue line problem will be ready?


 That is the question of the hour...I'd give you an answer if I had one...I begin to see the frustrations that Dish had with Microsoft over the dishplayer.

P Smith's "news" means that there's a beta version being tested that supercedes L210, which was also a beta version.


----------



## tahoerob

Mark Lamutt said:


> That is the question of the hour...I'd give you an answer if I had one...I begin to see the frustrations that Dish had with Microsoft over the dishplayer.
> 
> P Smith's "news" means that there's a beta version being tested that supercedes L210, which was also a beta version.


L211????? 

I guess we would need to start a new thread!


----------



## SpenceJT

tahoerob said:


> L211?????
> 
> I guess we would need to start a new thread!


how about we leave our options open and call it "L2xx"? :lol:


----------



## deweybrunner

Why can't all of us who do not have a blue line problem benefit with all the rest of the update, and release the blue line problem later? We could all be waiting an indefinite time til this gets worked out. Release the "blue Line" update later!


----------



## Rodney

Everyone, those that have and those that don't have the blue line problem, would benefit from L210 if it was released today.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Dewey - that's the current plan as I know it. Hence why the 2 added features are in there now. There is a real sense of urgency to get this out to you, so it'll be there just as soon as it's good to go. And if the driver is fixed, then great. If not, there's next time. If you were to get the version that I have right now, you'd be saying "Damn, they were so close with this, why didn't they wait a couple of more days and get the last piece of it right?"


----------



## garyhesq

Mark Lamutt said:


> If you were to get the version that I have right now, you'd be saying "Damn, they were so close with this, why didn't they wait a couple of more days and get the last piece of it right?"


You guys heard it here first. Right from the horses mouth. It will be ready in a few days :lol:


----------



## Bradtothebone

garyhesq said:


> You guys heard it here first. Right from the horses mouth. It will be ready in a few days :lol:


Yes, but did he mean "days" in the modern sense, or in the *biblical* sense? 

Brad


----------



## jsanders

Bradtothebone said:


> Yes, but did he mean "days" in the modern sense, or in the *biblical* sense?


Well, since they are writing code, I guess you could call them "creative days". The account in Genesis says the world was created in six days, this is of course figurative, because there is no way for a human to measure a day if the sun and the earth haven't been created yet. Hence the term creative days.

The problem with creative days is that they weren't measured in a human frame of reference, we don't know how long they were.

So, by that estimate, we really don't know how long these days will take, we don't know when the release will be. Not that the creation of the heavens and the earth can be compared to the creaton of an HD PVR, but I think you get the picture.... :nono2:


----------



## Rodney

Mark Lamutt said:


> If not, there's next time. If you were to get the version that I have right now, you'd be saying "Damn, they were so close with this, why didn't they wait a couple of more days and get the last piece of it right?"


Actually this part of his statement appears that imply that they will get it right in a couple more days, which would be Friday.


----------



## ayalbaram

The last update was so long ago. They really should have released incremental updates, there is so much to fix/add I don't see the need to do it all at once. I understand the code isn't modular, but really who is at fault for that??? I have had a 921 probably longer then anyone here aside from beta testers and I'd really like my OTA guide data! Also it would be nice if I could record OTA and watch something else, that used to worl in L14x(at least thas when i think it last worked), but I was even able to do that on the origional factory s/w I feel these massive updates fix one thing and break something else in its place! I just wish they'd release smaller updates so we all could test, a larger group of people using the s/w would turn up issues that the beta group may not. 

Sorry for the rant, but like the rest of you I'm just frusterated sitting here waiting!


----------



## jsanders

ayalbaram said:


> The last update was so long ago. They really should have released incremental updates, there is so much to fix/add I don't see the need to do it all at once. I understand the code isn't modular, but really who is at fault for that??? I have had a 921 probably longer then anyone here aside from beta testers and I'd really like my OTA guide data! Also it would be nice if I could record OTA and watch something else, that used to worl in L14x(at least thas when i think it last worked), but I was even able to do that on the origional factory s/w I feel these massive updates fix one thing and break something else in its place! I just wish they'd release smaller updates so we all could test, a larger group of people using the s/w would turn up issues that the beta group may not.


There are a lot more boxes out there now, not just the early adopters on the bleeding edge anymore. I think you will find that Dish/Eldon is going to be a lot more careful with releases now that the average user has a 921. That means future releases will be far less likely to be one step forward and two steps back.


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## bytre

Keep in mind that releasing an update brings with it risk - risk that you'll do something wrong, that machines will fail during the update, etc., and thus updates won't be done frivilously.


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## DVDDAD

ayalbaram said:


> ...Also it would be nice if I could record OTA and watch something else, that used to worl in L14x(at least thas when i think it last worked), ...


You can do this but it's not easy. Watch what you want to watch and then set up a timer to fire a few minutes later to do the OTA recording. I have only gotten this to work when I set up the timer while watching the program I wanted to watch, before it the 921 started its background recording. I hope this helps.


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## P Smith

mwsmith2 said:


> Furthermore his "news" is usually shortly refuted as being incorrect by the real folks here.
> Michael


Hehe - yeah, you're the REAL one !  Who is never seen the real PVR921.


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## mwsmith2

P Smith said:


> Hehe - yeah, you're the REAL one !  Who is never seen the real PVR921.


You know, I'd comment, if only I could figure out what you are trying to say. 

Now returning you to your regularly scheduled thread.....

Michael


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## ayalbaram

DVDDAD said:


> You can do this but it's not easy. Watch what you want to watch and then set up a timer to fire a few minutes later to do the OTA recording. I have only gotten this to work when I set up the timer while watching the program I wanted to watch, before it the 921 started its background recording. I hope this helps.


That used to work for me, but it no longer does once I go into the dvr menu and select view on the other recording it stops my ota recording, but thanks for the suggestion


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## joebird

Yeah, I hope that gets fixed this go-round, too. It's a pain in the a**.


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## ayalbaram

Honestly what bothers me the most about that is that it used to work then one of the s/w updates broke it. No offence to anyone in the beta group, but that should have been caught before the last s/w release and once it was reported it should have been fixed immediatly! If it worked once there is no excuse for it not working now!


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## jsanders

ayalbaram said:


> Honestly what bothers me the most about that is that it used to work then one of the s/w updates broke it. No offence to anyone in the beta group, but that should have been caught before the last s/w release and once it was reported it should have been fixed immediatly! If it worked once there is no excuse for it not working now!


What broke? What specific problem were you referring to with the pronoun, "it"? Who knows where the process broke in the release you are talking about. You can't *only* suggest the beta group didn't catch it though. It is easily possible that they did find the issue you are referring too, whatever that is, and someone decided that it should go out anyway. The problem could be the result of the testing group missing something, or it could be an issue with the developers trying to reach a deadline, or it could be a problem with management saying, "ship it anyway". Personally, I think the testing group is the last one to be suspcious of. If you disagree with that, maybe you should sign up for beta testing and do a great job at it. Think about it, how many bugs have we logged on this message board that haven't been fixed? By your logic, we should be blamed too because it wasn't fixed yet. That isn't the case. There are plenty of bugs we have "caught" that aren't fiex yet. I suspect the problem is in a different area.


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## ayalbaram

jsanders if you read my prior 2 posts I was referring to the following:

"Also it would be nice if I could record OTA and watch something else, that used to worl in L14x(at least thas when i think it last worked), but I was even able to do that on the origional factory s/w "


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## mwgiii

jsanders said:


> There are plenty of bugs we have "caught" that aren't fiex yet. I suspect the problem is in a different area.


 Whats "Fiex"?

You might want to spell check before you give English lessons.


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## rbyers

ayalbaram said:


> jsanders if you read my prior 2 posts I was referring to the following:
> 
> "Also it would be nice if I could record OTA and watch something else, that used to worl in L14x(at least thas when i think it last worked), but I was even able to do that on the origional factory s/w "


Something appears to be quite wrong here. I record OTA and watch something else (from satellite or prior recording) all the time. I can't record OTA and watch something else OTA. There is only one OTA tuner. How about starting a poll and seeing if there are others in the same boat. If there are, we should see if there is any common thread to how you all are using the box. It certainly isn't always intuitive.


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## FaxMan

rbyers said:


> Something appears to be quite wrong here. I record OTA and watch something else (from satellite or prior recording) all the time. I can't record OTA and watch something else OTA. There is only one OTA tuner. How about starting a poll and seeing if there are others in the same boat. If there are, we should see if there is any common thread to how you all are using the box. It certainly isn't always intuitive.


I think the problem is that you if you are watching something OTA and start recording it, you can't change to watch anything else either Sat or previously recorded.


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## FaxMan

By the way... How come nobody has pointed out that today is Thursday, a day when new software versions often come out? :sure:


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## ggw2000

By the way... How come nobody has pointed out that today is Thursday, a day when new software versions often come out?

The days go by and turn into weeks. The weeks go by and turn into months. So goes life at Dish and 921 S/W upgrades


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## fox200

Tech chat did say last week in November or 1st week in December for OTA
guide. So unless it spools on Tuesday, another date will have come and gone.
I was getting a little excited when Mark said "soon after Thanksgiving". One week later ...nothing.


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## P Smith

Got a report - as for today L211 spooling for 65 beta PVR921s.


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## ayalbaram

211?? so does that mean 210 is gone and we have to wait until 211 goes through the beta phase?


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## Rodney

The arrival of L211 to beta testers would indicate;

1. L210 is finished and ready for distribution
2. L210 had issues that required another beta release to rectify

I hope it was number 1.


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## mwsmith2

FaxMan said:


> I think the problem is that you if you are watching something OTA and start recording it, you can't change to watch anything else either Sat or previously recorded.


Hmmm. I'm able to record OTA and watch the timeshifted program at the same time. For example, the wife wanted to watch a show from 7:00-8:00, but wasn't able to watch it, so she set a timer. At 7:30 or so, she finished up what she was doing and wanted to watch the show. I said "hmmmm, don't think it can do that, but let's give it a shot". She went to the pvr list, found the recording and hit "start over" or whatever the button says that starts it from the beginning. Well, it started playing, no problems. She watched it all the way through right till the end with no glitches. That is extremely cool! Now we can record a show, let it buffer up for about 15 - 20 minutes so we can zip through all the commercials. 

Not sure if this is exactly what you fellers are talking about, but it works over here. I have no problem recording OTA and watching sat or recording sat or watching whatever else I want, except for a different OTA channel (obvious).

Michael


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## dishbacker

ayalbaram said:


> jsanders if you read my prior 2 posts I was referring to the following:
> 
> "Also it would be nice if I could record OTA and watch something else, that used to worl in L14x(at least thas when i think it last worked), but I was even able to do that on the origional factory s/w "


Feature has been discussed numerous times... manual record without an end time will not let you change channels... regardless if its OTA or SAT.. should be fixed when we get guide data and you can set it to record to the end of the show. here is a thread with more details:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=31942


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## ayalbaram

dishbacker said:


> Feature has been discussed numerous times... manual record without an end time will not let you change channels... regardless if its OTA or SAT.. should be fixed when we get guide data and you can set it to record to the end of the show. here is a thread with more details:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=31942


On sat I can change the chan if I use the pip and swap, but ota won't let you use the pip


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## deweybrunner

Mark, this thread is now reporting the question of L210 and another L211. Does this mean we will now have another extended delay in getting all the features we have wanted for so long? I looked for 210 last night, but none came.


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## BobMurdoch

ayalbaram said:


> On sat I can change the chan if I use the pip and swap, but ota won't let you use the pip


PIP is disabled on the HD channels.... it will not work.


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## Mark Lamutt

It will now be L211. The difference in numbering this time around is one fix. Not going to need an extensive beta period for this one.


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## jsanders

Mark Lamutt said:


> It will now be L211. The difference in numbering this time around is one fix. Not going to need an extensive beta period for this one.


Great! I wasn't expecting this week myself, I figured the 9th might do it. Let's hope it is good to go this time!


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## Dustin_Moore

I'm going to read between the lines and offer a guess...

L210->L211 was done because of the "blue line" driver being installed. 

We will get this release next week. 12/9 or 12/10

badda bing


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## Mark Lamutt

Dustin - nope. I wish that were the case.


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## Dustin_Moore

Mark Lamutt said:


> Dustin - nope. I wish that were the case.


 :icon_cry:


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## tahoerob

Mark Lamutt said:


> Dustin - nope. I wish that were the case.


Is the not the case referring to the blue line issue OR the next week release!?!?!?!?


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## Mark Lamutt

Good God, you guys read that much into everything that I say...

I really, really hope that this will get released next week. How's that?


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## tahoerob

Mark Lamutt said:


> Good God, you guys read that much into everything that I say...
> 
> I really, really hope that this will get released next week. How's that?


 :hurah:  
I just wanted to state the obvious before some else!!! From following these threads, it seems that a lot of owners take the software issue too seriously!! :sure:
It was going to be asked, so why not make fun of it :lol:


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## zer0cool

I was thinking the same thing as Tahoerob. Maybe Mark should write for CSI or Lost, the way he has hidden meaning in every post he makes (or so lots of people think).
i'm just hoping it's out and stable before Christmas so I can show off my new TV and 921 without looking stupid.


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## Mark Lamutt

Zer0cool - at this point, I think that it would take just about the end of the world as we know it to keep this from being released by Christmas.


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## Skates

What are you trying to imply, Mark? Are you somehow against Hannukah???

!rolling


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## zer0cool

Uhoh, did you guys get the hidden meaning in Mark's post? Looks like were in for an apocalyptic event soon. Crap, I knew something like this would happen as soon as I bought a big screen!


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## FaxMan

Mark Lamutt said:


> It will now be L211. The difference in numbering this time around is one fix. Not going to need an extensive beta period for this one.


Doesn't that warrant a re-name of the thread?

By the way, this has become the third most viewed thread in this forum in just two weeks. Only behind the original 921 review and the L189 thread anticipation thread. :eek2:


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## tnsprin

jsanders said:


> Great! I wasn't expecting this week myself, I figured the 9th might do it. Let's hope it is good to go this time!


As I previous voted I expect to see this 12/24. Hope I am wrong and its sooner.

NOTE. Unless it serious breaks something that worked in 188 they need to release something soon.


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## SimpleSimon

Yeah - it'll be Christmas Eve, so that when it crashes the world, everyone is off for a long holiday weekend, and we get to suffer - again.


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## Mike123abc

What Dish really needs to do is detach numbering of Beta from Release software. If this is a big enough release it needs to go out to the end user as release 2.0 and have the beta testers be at, for example, release 2934. This way if the Beta goes to 2935 it is no big deal, and would generate a lot fewer questions.


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## DonLandis

Might as well wait until after CES now that we're this close. It will give them something to brag about at the show. "A major" fix for the 921 is promised to be released on the last day of the show that really makes it out the door on January 26th. 
If they release something as early as December 24th, they won't have anything to brag about at CES. 

PS- CES will mark my demarkation date where I get serious about decreasing my Dishnetwork subscription to bare minimum based on 2004 921 and HDprogramming performance. It doesn't look good.


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## David K

Well, all I know is I start 3-11 Tuesday and was hoping to record CBS while I was at work, looks like that's not gonna happen. This is getting quite frustrating, and I'm pretty new to the game, I've only had my 921 about a month now, I can only imagine your guys frustration.


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## P Smith

Mike123abc,
That was pointed a few times - Dish numbering in one sequence ALL version for ALL models. So no way to deduct from particular model versions how many betas between the numbers.


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## ocnier

DonLandis said:


> Might as well wait until after CES now that we're this close. It will give them something to brag about at the show. "A major" fix for the 921 is promised to be released on the last day of the show that really makes it out the door on January 26th.
> If they release something as early as December 24th, they won't have anything to brag about at CES.
> 
> PS- CES will mark my demarkation date where I get serious about decreasing my Dishnetwork subscription to bare minimum based on 2004 921 and HDprogramming performance. It doesn't look good.


Don, i feel your pain, I had to get the hd tivo to appease the wife and offer peace in the house. So now like you I have both units going. I wish the software update would come with true stability, but either way it will be a hard sell to the other half to keep both (god, i'll miss sirius! & uhf remotes! & TNT HD). This sucks.... If Dish could score one just one homeroom for the 921 it would be awesome!


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## Frank Z

Mark,
Are you going to start an L211 Thread?


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## Cyclone

Frank Z said:


> Mark,
> Are you going to start an L211 Thread?


This is the L211 thread, it just has the wrong version in its title.


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## Frank Z

The thread title still reads 210, hence my question.


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## Mark Lamutt

Nah, I'll just rename this one. Was going to do that last week, and then got sidetracked.

As for beta numbering, it is detached from release numbering. The L210 that we got over Thanksgiving was intended for release, but we managed to find a couple of serious things wrong with it. So, the next version went back to the standard beta numbering scheme, pushing the release version to L211 (or maybe something else that I'm not aware of). I'll have a very good idea tonight whether or not we'll see it this week.


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## boylehome

Mark Lamutt said:


> I'll have a very good idea tonight whether or not we'll see it this week.


Now you have me dangling with full attention :lol:


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## Mark Lamutt

For your attention, in case you miss it at the top of the forum:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=35989


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## TonyB

This cleanup work makee me think we are really close. Mark, when will it be possible to list the fixes for L211? Can you list those other than the last 2?


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## scpanel

I have been on the phone w/tech support tonight for the slow response w/my 921 and was told that the new release will spool tomorrow and to keep my 921 off around dinner time to see if the new software release solves the problem. So maybe tomorrow is the big day...


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## Mark Lamutt

If all goes well tonight, tomorrow is possible. Thursday is more likely. There, I've said it.


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## Frank Z

Mark,
Are you feeling okay? Fever, headache, chills? Your giving us a date, of sorts, but a date none the less. Where can I give blood? I'm really worried bro!!


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## jsanders

Frank Z said:


> Mark,
> Are you feeling okay? Fever, headache, chills? Your giving us a date, of sorts, but a date none the less. Where can I give blood? I'm really worried bro!!


Technically speaking, he told us tomorrow is possible, but he didn't tell us which Thursday it will be. Let's hope they push this one out by 12/09/04 though! !pu****!

Mark is no doubt still sound in mind, we might eventually make him crazy though! :grin:


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## Mark Lamutt

Just very busy tonight trying to break this so that you guys don't get it... :lol: <evil>


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## P Smith

The word is ANA1 is spooling as beta for a few PVRs.

EDIT: I'm told today the ANA1 begin upgrading to L211 for the PVR921s.


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## Mark Lamutt

Nothing like confusing the issue... 

We'll see what happens...


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## zer0cool

Well, it's been raining here all night, the Cowboys pulled off a miracle win, and now this. I think i better go outside and make sure that's rain and not hellfire and brimstone falling from the sky.


----------



## Dustin_Moore

Well, Mark did you break it?


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## Mark Lamutt

Not completely...


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## Scott Greczkowski

Mark I just got a call saying it is possible that this release will go out today if they can get it "Packaged" in time. (I have no idea what packaged means)

Have you heard anything about this?


----------



## Dustin_Moore

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Mark I just got a call saying it is possible that this release will go out today if they can get it "Packaged" in time. (I have no idea what packaged means)
> 
> Have you heard anything about this?


That is good news...


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## Mark Lamutt

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Mark I just got a call saying it is possible that this release will go out today if they can get it "Packaged" in time. (I have no idea what packaged means)
> 
> Have you heard anything about this?


 Yup... 

Packaging is getting the software up to the satellite and set to download to a specified receiver group (in this case, all). It is really looking like unless there's a problem at the uplink center here in the next 5 hours, L211 will spool today.

I'll have release notes posted just as soon as I get them, plus a few comments of my own about this version of the software. A couple of things to watch out for, and the like.


----------



## Redster

:hurah: Wooohoooo


----------



## junianby

Mark Lamutt said:


> Yup...
> 
> Packaging is getting the software up to the satellite and set to download to a specified receiver group (in this case, all). It is really looking like unless there's a problem at the uplink center here in the next 5 hours, L211 will spool today.
> 
> I'll have release notes posted just as soon as I get them, plus a few comments of my own about this version of the software. A couple of things to watch out for, and the like.


I just checked and I have software downloading right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nick


----------



## mcglauch

My 921 just arrived!! Thank you Claude and Scott! Mark should I wait until later in the day to hook it up and take L211 on the first boot or just go for it now.

Thanks,
Marc


----------



## deweybrunner

Mark, my unit is downloading now. When you have time give us steps we should take after the download is complete. Thanks for all your help and patience.


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## Dustin_Moore

If the software is spooling now, which it appears...go for it. IMHO


----------



## David K

I just walked in, 11:40 am, and the yellow light on my 921 is flashing. Ye Haw!!!! Is this the infamous 210 spool? What stinks is I won't be able to check it out until tonight after work. Bummer.


----------



## Scott Greczkowski

mcglauch said:


> My 921 just arrived!! Thank you Claude and Scott! Mark should I wait until later in the day to hook it up and take L211 on the first boot or just go for it now.


No problem, thanks for shopping DishStore.NET.  I would hook it up now it will grab whatever it feels is best. 

Let us know how you make out. Enjoy your unit.


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## Mike123abc

I am up to update 8 of 30... the experiment is on


----------



## boylehome

Mike123abc said:


> I am up to update 8 of 30... the experiment is on


Mine just started.


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## junianby

boylehome said:


> Mine just started.


My download stopped? It says " Download Interrupted- Please Wait" !!!!!!!!!!


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## mcglauch

Is it wrong to have a 6000,721 and 921 all hooked to one tv? LOL


----------



## n0qcu

mcglauch said:


> Is it wrong to have a 6000,721 and 921 all hooked to one tv? LOL


I don't know what your question has to do with this thread.
No it is not wrong.


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## Mark Lamutt

I've posted some initial release notes from my experience in the new L211 Thread stickied at the top of the forum.

Closing this one now.


----------

