# So long TiVo.



## Stoodo (Jun 18, 2006)

My last two HD TiVos were deactivated today due to getting two more HR20's. I really don't think I am going to miss them.

I knew it was the right call when my wife didn't even object.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Stoodo said:


> I knew it was the right call when my wife didn't even object.


Tell me, when she didn't object, where you internally yelling YAHOO!!!! or did you just hear the theme from chariots of fire in the background?


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## Brian Hanasky (Feb 22, 2008)

I thought I would miss my Tivos when I converted the whole house. Now 2 HR20's and a R15. Don't miss the Tivo one bit. While different I think the HR's are better


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

I miss TIVO very much. Dual live buffers, suggestions, etc. By splitting with TIVO, Directv has become less of a flagship tv provider. It was a great thing to have. Bring it back!


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

jal said:


> I miss TIVO very much. Dual live buffers, suggestions, etc. By splitting with TIVO, Directv has become less of a flagship tv provider. It was a great thing to have. Bring it back!


Shows different things are important, DLB used it occasionally, Suggestions where the first thing I turned off when I had the HR10's shipped to me to replace the diffective ones.

All in all, a good move on going to the HR2X series, the last HR10 is sitting out in the garage hooked to a 15 in set that I watch when working out there, when that one dies, the PP will replace it and I will upgrade the set out there.


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## Steve Robertson (Jun 7, 2005)

I don't miss my tivo at all excepr I never got audio dropouts on the tivo box


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## doctrsnoop (Nov 20, 2007)

Thought I would hate the HR2x box and held out with my HR10's for more than a year until I just couldn't take it anymore with all the new channels. Well that was dumb. I don't miss the Tivo at all. I never used DLB though.

I actually like the new boxes slightly more.


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## larryk (Aug 17, 2006)

I agree.
Sugesstions were the first thing I got rid of with Tivo.
DLB was nice, but, we live just fine without it...
I don't miss my Tivo.


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## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

My R10 is gathering dust in my garage, I don't miss it one bit.

With all the new features the current receivers have, the loss of DLB is just not important to me.


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## celticpride (Sep 6, 2006)

I miss my tivo so much im thinking about switching to verizon fios,so i can get me an HD tivo.


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## celticpride (Sep 6, 2006)

AT the very least im thinking of reactivating one of my hd 10-250 tivos.


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## PAJeep (Mar 8, 2008)

celticpride said:


> AT the very least im thinking of reactivating one of my hd 10-250 tivos.


just seems pointless unless you have an old CRT or don't mind watching SD.


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## ub1934 (Dec 30, 2005)

doctrsnoop said:


> Thought I would hate the HR2x box and held out with my HR10's for more than a year until I just couldn't take it anymore with all the new channels. Well that was dumb. I don't miss the Tivo at all. I never used DLB though.
> 
> I actually like the new boxes slightly more.


 You always used the DLBs because each tuner had its own live 30 min. buffer :lol:


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

TiVo? Oh yeah, I remember that, they were big back in the 20th century, right?


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

wingrider01 said:


> Suggestions where the first thing I turned off when I had the HR10's shipped to me to replace the diffective ones.


You've got that right. When I got my first Directivo, I screwed up and the first program that I recorded was a cartoon for my daughter. The next day I got home from work and noticed that it recorded a ton of cartoons on it's own. I couldn't turn suggestions off fast enough after that.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I'm guessing that those of you that don't miss your Tivos never bothered hacking them for the extra features they can provide. That would certainly make sense since you'd be perfectly satisfied with a plain vanilla DVR and not one that can do lots of cool things. I mean, how can you miss something that you were never able to truly enjoy to the fullest extent in the first place? What you fail to realize is that a Tivo is not only a revolutionary piece of hardware, it's also a hacker's dream machine. There is no other DVR on the face of the earth that can be tweaked to do what a Tivo can do.

As a standard DVR, the Tivo has a lot of nice features most other DVRs lack. If you didn't use them then any other DVR would fit your needs, so what's to miss? Those of us that took our Tivos to the next level would differ with the opinion that the HR series is a better DVR, at least from a hacker's viewpoint. With the HR20, what you see is what you get. With a Tivo, what you get are infinite possibilities. I've never owned an HR20, mainly because I dumped DirecTV in favor of FIOS and the ability to keep on using Tivos. I've heard good things about the HR20, but with no way to hack it, it's just another DVR (yawn). Other DVRs are basically Tivo wannabes, including the HR20. If it weren't for Tivo and ReplayTV to pave the way into the home DVR market, the HR20, and every other DVR, would probably never have been born. Thank Tivo for the fact that you even have the HR20.


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

I really miss being able to switch between two live programs. Other than that, I'm fine with the HR20. :up:


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## SG24 (Jul 13, 2006)

Jon J said:


> I really miss being able to switch between two live programs. Other than that, I'm fine with the HR20. :up:


Same. Honestly I think it's the only thing I miss.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

captain_video said:


> What you fail to realize is that a Tivo is not only a revolutionary piece of hardware, it's also a hacker's dream machine...Thank Tivo for the fact that you even have the HR20.


And those two things tie in together. The hacking community, which came up with the fake Lifetime Service mod and the other assorted hacks forced DIRECTV to think that if this little company we hired for DVR service causes security issues, we'll handle it ourselves. _Any_ multichannel provider would have reacted the same way in similar situations. So yeah, thank TiVo for the HR20.

I guess TiVo feels they have a "hacker's dream machine", which is why they're comfortable charging $12.95/mo. for their service. J&JSP will pay their provider for their DVR because they just want to record TV. They know if it goes belly up and their provider plans on keeping their business, said provider will give them another machine.

Yeah, TiVo has some nice features and it's a fine platform. But, after trying other options I see no reason to limit myself to one platform. Frankly, when TiVo opted to remove the Lifetime Service option, I opted to remove them as an option. I don't need another recurring monthly fee. I could factor Lifetime into the purchase of the machine and when it was $199, I had no problem adding it in. Now, it's $299 for 3 year prepay and the only way to get Lifetime is to pay $399 _and_ have another TiVo active on your account. I _guess_ that's supposed to be consumer-friendly?

And, no, I haven't done much with TiVo technically, other than swap out hard drives for more storage, partly because I'm not a Linux guru. I install it on a partition, eff around with it for awhile, then forget about it. But really, I went DVR to more efficiently use my spare time so I could see shows I would have missed before and FF through commercials. If it's too much work, it defeats the purpose.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

captain_video said:


> What you fail to realize is that a Tivo is not only a revolutionary piece of hardware, it's also a hacker's dream machine. There is no other DVR on the face of the earth that can be tweaked to do what a Tivo can do.


What's really ironic though is that a lot of the things you had to "hack" the Tivo to get is actually a built in and supported feature of the HR20/21 platform. 

I see posts on the Tivo forum of guys giggling like little school girls that "You Tube is coming" to the Tivo. Ummmm, I've been watching You Tube on my HR20 for over 6 months now.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bidger said:


> And those two things tie in together. The hacking community, which came up with the fake Lifetime Service mod and the other assorted hacks forced DIRECTV to think that if this little company we hired for DVR service causes security issues, we'll handle it ourselves. _Any_ multichannel provider would have reacted the same way in similar situations. So yeah, thank TiVo for the HR20.


And that is a huge thing that people seem to always forget when DirecTV went their own way. Hacking is just not acceptable to DirecTV and hacking the DirecTivo's was something they just did not like (and for good reason).


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

Yea...the HR20 is really good at recording programs. Except for American Idol and assorted other programs. I like the HR20, but comparing to the Tivo units the only thing it really excels at is speed...which is huge, but other than that the functionality of the Tivo is MUCH better and it is still rock solid reliability wise.

The wife still complains about the lack of DLB on the new units from DirecTV.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Jon J said:


> I really miss being able to switch between two live programs. Other than that, I'm fine with the HR20. :up:


Ah but you can switch between to live programs. 



> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround*
> 
> *Setup*
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> ...


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

jal said:


> I miss TIVO very much. Dual live buffers, suggestions, etc. By splitting with TIVO, Directv has become less of a flagship tv provider. It was a great thing to have. Bring it back!


You ever use DLB hot and heavy and you are switching back and forth, working it good, and then BAM, TiVo decides you need to watch the Hello Larry! Marathon as a suggestion, and bam one of your buffers blows up, while you are attending to the girls at the front door selling cookies?


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

captain_video said:


> There is no other DVR on the face of the earth that can be tweaked to do what a Tivo can do.


Yeah getting weather on my TiVo what a godsend.

Please list the top 10 of these amazing features that your hacked TiVo could do.

It would be especially beneficial if any of them actually related to using the device as a DVR.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

marksman said:


> You ever use DLB hot and heavy and you are switching back and forth, working it good, and then BAM, TiVo decides you need to watch the Hello Larry! Marathon as a suggestion, and bam one of your buffers blows up, while you are attending to the girls at the front door selling cookies?


No...because I am educated enough to go into the menu and make a change. Very simple.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

theratpatrol said:


> Ah but you can switch between to live programs.


Maybe I can hop on one foot and pat my head to accomplish this as well? It's not really a solution when you have to list steps on how to do it.


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## DrEricCarlson (Mar 6, 2007)

Brian Hanasky said:


> I thought I would miss my Tivos when I converted the whole house. Now 2 HR20's and a R15. Don't miss the Tivo one bit. While different I think the HR's are better


I like the HR2x series and think they are really coming along. I think for what I use them for they are almost as good as my old TIVO machine. I thought I would miss DLB but I have found that I don't miss it much. The bigger issue for me is the 50 series limit on DirecTV DVRs. I had over 100 series links on my TIVO. Once DirecTV fixes the series link problem then I will really love the DirecTV DVRs.

-DrEric


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

bidger said:


> And those two things tie in together. The hacking community, which came up with the fake Lifetime Service mod and the other assorted hacks forced DIRECTV to think that if this little company we hired for DVR service causes security issues, we'll handle it ourselves. _Any_ multichannel provider would have reacted the same way in similar situations. So yeah, thank TiVo for the HR20.
> 
> I guess TiVo feels they have a "hacker's dream machine", which is why they're comfortable charging $12.95/mo. for their service. J&JSP will pay their provider for their DVR because they just want to record TV. They know if it goes belly up and their provider plans on keeping their business, said provider will give them another machine.
> 
> ...


You're confusing Tivo hacks with DirecTV hacks. The method used to get free DVR service many years ago was a DirecTV hack and had nothing to do with Tivo's security. You have to look at a DirecTivo as two separate somponents in the same chassis. One part is the DirecTV receiver which handles all of the security and reception issues (think access card). The other half is the Tivo, which gets its authorization to record from the DirecTV side of the box (i.e., DVR tier on the access card). The hack that allowed free "lifetime" service was a hack that was performed on the access card. Perhaps you're thinking of the old 2.5Xtreme mod which had a side effect that indicated the unit had a lifetime sub attached. All this hack accomplished was to allow the DTivo to be used without a phone line. The truth is, unless you hacked the DirecTV side of things you would still not get free DVR service, regardless of what the service status indicated. I won't get into further details on the issue because it would no doubt violate several forum rules. Suffice it to say that DirecTV closed the door on hacking the DirecTV side of the box years ago.

DirecTV was also the one that took away your lifetime subs with DirecTivos, not Tivo. DirecTV took over managing the DVR service from Tivo and paid them a royalty for each Tivo that was subbed with DirecTV. DirecTV decided to keep all the money for themselves, which is why they dumped Tivo in favor of their own DVRs. So far everything you've blamed Tivo for has been for something that DirecTV did, not Tivo. You might want to get your facts straight.

FYI - Tivo is currently offering lifetime subs for the latest Tivo HD.



bonscott87 said:


> What's really ironic though is that a lot of the things you had to "hack" the Tivo to get is actually a built in and supported feature of the HR20/21 platform.
> 
> I see posts on the Tivo forum of guys giggling like little school girls that "You Tube is coming" to the Tivo. Ummmm, I've been watching You Tube on my HR20 for over 6 months now.


And what you fail to realize is that any features included in the HR20/HR21 were developed by Tivo hackers years ago, well before they were ever implemented on a commercial Tivo or other DVR. Personally, I could care less about the silly features that Tivo has included in their currrent models. UnBox sucks and most of the download features are pretty bad, IMHO.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

captain_video said:


> I'm guessing that those of you that don't miss your Tivos never bothered hacking them for the extra features they can provide. That would certainly make sense since you'd be perfectly satisfied with a plain vanilla DVR and not one that can do lots of cool things. I mean, how can you miss something that you were never able to truly enjoy to the fullest extent in the first place? What you fail to realize is that a Tivo is not only a revolutionary piece of hardware, it's also a hacker's dream machine. There is no other DVR on the face of the earth that can be tweaked to do what a Tivo can do.
> 
> As a standard DVR, the Tivo has a lot of nice features most other DVRs lack. If you didn't use them then any other DVR would fit your needs, so what's to miss? Those of us that took our Tivos to the next level would differ with the opinion that the HR series is a better DVR, at least from a hacker's viewpoint. With the HR20, what you see is what you get. With a Tivo, what you get are infinite possibilities. I've never owned an HR20, mainly because I dumped DirecTV in favor of FIOS and the ability to keep on using Tivos. I've heard good things about the HR20, but with no way to hack it, it's just another DVR (yawn). Other DVRs are basically Tivo wannabes, including the HR20. If it weren't for Tivo and ReplayTV to pave the way into the home DVR market, the HR20, and every other DVR, would probably never have been born. Thank Tivo for the fact that you even have the HR20.


Why does one need to "hack" something to get it to work the way they want it to? By that statement the device was found lacking in the first place.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

luckydob said:


> Yea...the HR20 is really good at recording programs. Except for American Idol and assorted other programs. I like the HR20, but comparing to the Tivo units the only thing it really excels at is speed...which is huge, but other than that the functionality of the Tivo is MUCH better and it is still rock solid reliability wise.
> 
> The wife still complains about the lack of DLB on the new units from DirecTV.


Have a lot less issues with missed programs on the HR2X series boxes then I ever did on the HR10 boxes, plus I have not heard the dreaded "DADDY! the TV is messed up and I can;t watch Dora" because the HR10 decided to spontaneously reboot for the 5th time that day.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Hacking allows a person to incorporate features not included with the basic DVR. Many of the hacks that were developed for the Tivo were eventually picked up by Tivo and included in the official software releases. People now enjoy features such as MRV and Tivo To Go when the hacking community had them for several years.

I don't expect everyone to share the same feelings about hacking a Tivo. It's obvious that the vast majority of DVR owners just want a box to record the latest episode of The Survivor. The rest of us like to push the envelope and explore other possibilities. We see the Tivo as a "Field of Dreams" whereas the rest of you view it as an appliance, not unlike a toaster oven. The bottom line is that you can't appreciate what you obviously don't understand.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

marksman said:


> Yeah getting weather on my TiVo what a godsend.
> 
> Please list the top 10 of these amazing features that your hacked TiVo could do.
> 
> It would be especially beneficial if any of them actually related to using the device as a DVR.


I hate to burst yet another bubble but that feature was courtesy of Tivo, Inc. The hacking community has better things to do with their time.

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that only six months or so ago the vast majority of people were bashing the HR20 and lambasting DirecTV in their decision to dump Tivo? Now all of a sudden this place is full of Tivo bashers. Talk about fair weather fans!


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

wingrider01 said:


> Have a lot less issues with missed programs on the HR2X series boxes then I ever did on the HR10 boxes, plus I have not heard the dreaded "DADDY! the TV is messed up and I can;t watch Dora" because the HR10 decided to spontaneously reboot for the 5th time that day.


I've owned numerous HR10's over the years and not one of them ever spontaneously rebooted or experienced the problems a lot of HDTivo owners whined about. In the 8 or 9 years I've owned and hacked Tivos, I can probably count the total number of missed recordings on one hand, and they were all missed for perfectly good reasons. I've owned several dozen Tivos in that time, as well as other DVRs.

The Tivo isn't the perfect DVR but it does most things better than any other DVR I've ever owned. I loved the user interface on the Ultimate TV but couldn't stand the fact that it was supported (briefly) by Microsoft and then summarily abandoned with no warning. ReplayTV's were actually ahead of their time with features like MRV, but it eventually got them into hot water and they never recovered from it. Tivo is the longest supported DVR on the planet and has features that others only try to emulate. Fact is, Tivo owns most of the patents and copyrights on things like season passes and Wishlists so no other DVR will ever truly be able to work as well as a Tivo does in these areas, unless they want to pay Tivo royalties.


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## turey22 (Jul 30, 2007)

mrv is multi room viewing, is like a multi room reciever?


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

luckydob said:


> Maybe I can hop on one foot and pat my head to accomplish this as well? It's not really a solution when you have to list steps on how to do it.


And just how did you do on Tivo again? 

I agree, but it does work, and works pretty good. And its better then what we've had in the past, which was nothing.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

wingrider01 said:


> Have a lot less issues with missed programs on the HR2X series boxes then I ever did on the HR10 boxes, plus I have not heard the dreaded "DADDY! the TV is messed up and I can;t watch Dora" because the HR10 decided to spontaneously reboot for the 5th time that day.


Go into your history and you'll see that "Dora" gets cancelled about 20% of the time for no reason with the HR20.


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## Munkey (Feb 26, 2007)

wingrider01 said:


> Suggestions where the first thing I turned off QUOTE]
> 
> +1
> 
> Spent way too much time deleting crap I didn't want to watch.


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

theratpatrol said:


> Ah but you can switch between to live programs.


I assume you meant "two" live programs. And yes, I am aware of the "workaround" but it is just that...a "workaround". Nowhere as elegant as hitting the down button once.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

I loved the suggestions. The TIVO box really learned the type of things that I liked. There was always a good-and different-sitcom waiting for me after a hard day's work. The HR20 is much like a tapeless VCR, just slightly better. There's no real fun about it.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

marksman said:


> Yeah getting weather on my TiVo what a godsend.
> 
> *Please list the top 10 of these amazing features that your hacked TiVo could do.
> *
> It would be especially beneficial if any of them actually related to using the device as a DVR.


I'm still waiting for a list of great hacks...


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

PAJeep said:


> just seems pointless unless you have an old CRT or don't mind watching SD.


On the HR10 you can get OTA HD. That is all we watch anyways (OTA).. On a 52 DLP.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

raott said:


> Go into your history and you'll see that "Dora" gets cancelled about 20% of the time for no reason with the HR20.


Doubt it, my youngest is a dora expert and she knows the episodes and when to expect them, if she does not have them when she gets home from Day Care she will let me know. Add to the fact I just checked and nothing listed as canceled


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

sigma1914 said:


> I'm still waiting for a list of great hacks...


Suspect that "great hacks" is a oxymoron, just like Military Intelligence


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## dlt4 (Oct 4, 2006)

larryk said:


> I agree.
> Sugesstions were the first thing I got rid of with Tivo.
> DLB was nice, but, we live just fine without it...
> I don't miss my Tivo.


My DSR704 has smoother and quicker FF, FR, or 30 sec skip functioning than my HR20. As for Suggestions, I don't have them set to automatically record, and what shows up there can also be fine-tuned by using the thumbs up/down buttons. I don't have any major complaints about the HR20, but I still love my Tivo unit, other than the fact that it's SD!


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I'm guessing that those of you that don't miss your Tivos never bothered hacking them for the extra features they can provide. That would certainly make sense since you'd be perfectly satisfied with a plain vanilla DVR and not one that can do lots of cool things.


If it has (or had) to be hacked to do cool things, maybe the Tivo is the plain vanilla DVR.

I can hack a Ford Pinto to run 10 seconds in a quarter mile. But the question is, why would I want a Pinto?


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

wingrider01 said:


> Doubt it, my youngest is a dora expert and she knows the episodes and when to expect them, if she does not have them when she gets home from Day Care she will let me know. Add to the fact I just checked and nothing listed as canceled


Look at the very long blues clues thread. There is a problem, you can deny it because it may not be an issue that you've seen, but, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist for alot of people.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

luckydob said:


> No...because I am educated enough to go into the menu and make a change. Very simple.





luckydob said:


> Maybe I can hop on one foot and pat my head to accomplish this as well? It's not really a solution when you have to list steps on how to do it.




It takes less steps for the workaround than it does to make that change in the menu. Very, very simple.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

TigersFanJJ said:


> If it has (or had) to be hacked to do cool things, maybe the Tivo is the plain vanilla DVR.
> 
> I can hack a Ford Pinto to run 10 seconds in a quarter mile. But the question is, why would I want a Pinto?


Tivo has season passes and wishlists and does them better than any other DVR. There are many features the Tivo has that work better than other DVRs. They invented them. Everyone else is playing catchup.

What "cool things" can you do with a HR20 that the Tivo doesn't already do in a stock configuration? "Hacking" a Pinto is a poor analogy since you can modify just about any vehicle to a higher level of performance. You can't hack just any DVR to improve its features or functionality. With a Tivo, you can add a plethora of features, many of which may or may not be of interest to you. If all you use a Tivo for is recording and playing back shows on a regular basis then yes, it is a plain vanilla DVR, but only because you choose not explore other possibilities. Different strokes, etc.



wingrider01 said:


> Suspect that "great hacks" is a oxymoron, just like Military Intelligence


The "greatness" of the hack is in the eye of the beholder. SA Tivo owners have enjoyed MRV (and yes, it does mean Multi-Room Viewing) functionality between Tivos for several years. This allows you to transfer shows between Tivos located in different areas of the house. DirecTivo owners never enjoyed this feature on a stock Tivo because of issues with studios regarding copyrights and such (i.e., direct digital transfers of the original source material). Those of us that learned how to hack our Tivos have enjoyed MRV functionality between DirecTivos for almost as long as SA Tivo owners. Those of you that stuck with plain vanilla DVRs are simply SOL.

One of the "great" hacks has always been the ability to transfer videos from a Tivo to a PC for burning to DVD. SA Tivo owners have been able to do this for a while now and just recently S3 Tivos and Tivo HDs have gained this feature as well. HDTivo and DTivo owners were left in the lurch due to copyright issues with the studios. Once again, the hackers had the edge in this area. I had every episode of Seinfeld on DVD long before they were ever released commercially. I've got numerous other TV series on DVD that I recorded on my DTivos and HDTivos. I've been able to do this for about as long as I've owned my first Tivo, which I bought around '99 or '00.

I don't think anyone has ever compiled a complete list of available hacks for a Tivo, mainly because there are so many of them and the list keeps changing on a weekly basis. I actually use only a few of them on a regular basis but sometimes I'll install one just to play around with it out of curiousity.

Tivos have been a hobby of mine ever since they first came out. They've also been my passion once I learned you could hack them. I certainly don't expect everyone to share in that passion since everyone has their own personal preferences. Just don't belittle them because you didn't know what you could do with them. Some people can enjoy a fine wine whereas others would rather have something with a screw cap because it's easier to open.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

captain_video said:


> Am I the only one that finds it ironic that only six months or so ago the vast majority of people were bashing the HR20 and lambasting DirecTV in their decision to dump Tivo? Now all of a sudden this place is full of Tivo bashers. Talk about fair weather fans!


A lot happens in 6 months.

6 months ago I had 3 Directivos in my house. All SD. I was putting off going to HD mainly because of the lack of an HD D*tivo. We'd been using tivos for going on 8 years and were huge fans. Such big fans that I had a tivo antenna ball on my car and we have 3 Tivo plush dolls laying around the house that the kids enjoy.

That changed 6 months ago when I decided I couldn't wait anymore and after much research among providers (including FIOS + TIVO) I decided to give the HR20 a try. I hadn't read much on the D* receivers since the initial D* DVR was launched a couple of years ago and all the problems and complaints against it (mostly at TC, but here a bit as well). After reading this forum for about 1 month I realized the HR20's had made a lot of progress, so I opted for that.

By christmas I was down to 1 D*tivo and as of the end of February, I am now tivo free. All my boxes have been replaced with HR20's and HR21's. I think they're great. Is there an occasional glitch? Sure, but I had glitches with my tivo's as well.

Have I ever lost a recording? No
Have the boxes ever needed to be rebooted? No (except for once after a CE)
Do I miss DLB? A bit, but I'm realizing I never used it that much anyway. I just liked knowing it was there.
Any other recurring problems? No.

So, this ex-tivo fanboy is not an HR2X fanboy.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

sigma1914 said:


> I'm still waiting for a list of great hacks...


OK, how about these (some of which I've already mentioned):

1. Multi-Room Viewing - transfer shows between Tivos located in different areas of the house. This is available on standalone units but was never available on DTivos.

2. No phone hack - allows you to use your Tivo without the need to keep it connected to a phone line. This is not an issue with SA Tivos since they need to be connected to a phone line 24/7 but it was a necessity for hacked DirecTivos to avoid taking unwanted software updates that would overwrite the installed hacks.

3. FTP - use a standard FTP program for transferring files to and from your PC.

4. Telnet - communicate with your Tivo via a network connection and a terminal program using a command line interface.

5. Video extraction - transfer shows to your PC and burn them to DVD using commercially available programs.

6. Mfs_ftp - transfer videos using a commercial FTP program as well as transfer shows between Tivos using FXP protocol. This was a precursor to MRV in that you could transfer shows in tmf format that contained information on the extracted program. Useful if you wanted to transfer shows back to the same Tivo or to a different one, such as in the case of upgrading a hard drive without losing your recordings. This would retain the show information in the Now Playing list.

7. Customize the Almost there splash screen - add something unique instead of the ordinary DirecTV logo.

8. TivoWebPlus - control and monitor your Tivo remotely from your PC. Add any number of plug-ins to backup and restore your season passes, wishlists, etc.

9. Add HMO features - view digital photos and play music on your Tivo, using your PC as a server.

10. Add caller ID - view incoming calls on your TV screen.

Note that many of the aforementioned features are availabel on standalone models as well as the HR20. You can thank the hacking community for coming up with them and showing Tivo what could be done. Tivo just modified the hacks and included them in later software releases. Unfortunately, DirecTivo and HD Tivo owners never enjoyed many of the same features as other Tivos for reasons cited previously. There are numerous other hacks available but i just included many of the more popular ones that I could remember off the top of my head.


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

captain_video said:


> Am I the only one that finds it ironic that only six months or so ago the vast majority of people were bashing the HR20 and lambasting DirecTV in their decision to dump Tivo? Now all of a sudden this place is full of Tivo bashers. Talk about fair weather fans!


I take exception to your use of the term "bashing". Pointing out differences and preferences is not bashing. The HR2x is evolving. The HR10 is not for the average user. Granted, the tech savvy individual can install additional features. But the average Joe won't.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

captain_video said:


> Tivo has season passes and wishlists and does them better than any other DVR. There are many features the Tivo has that work better than other DVRs. They invented them. Everyone else is playing catchup.


No they don't do them better than everyone else, and they sure as heck don't keep them organized as well as someone else... ReplayTV does it the best, period. Also, just so you know, ReplayTV invented it all, and launched before Tivo. Why do you think that Tivo agreed that they would never sue ReplayTV? Its because they knew that if Replay could scrounge up the money to defend themselves, Tivo would loose and be paying replay forever because Replay had all the patents first. Unfortunately, Replay didn't have the right backers so Tivo spent the money to become then name brand of DVR's.



captain_video said:


> What "cool things" can you do with a HR20 that the Tivo doesn't already do in a stock configuration? "Hacking" a Pinto is a poor analogy since you can modify just about any vehicle to a higher level of performance. You can't hack just any DVR to improve its features or functionality. With a Tivo, you can add a plethora of features, many of which may or may not be of interest to you. If all you use a Tivo for is recording and playing back shows on a regular basis then yes, it is a plain vanilla DVR, but only because you choose not explore other possibilities. Different strokes, etc.


Actually, most of the things you mentioned as great Tivo hacks are things that come stock on the HR2 DVR's.... Plus things like VOD remote booking (which is coming soon, finally) networking, esata, pig, 1 line guide, faster especially in the season pass area, ... And actually, his pinto analogy is good... Why buy a pinto you have to hack to make better, when you can buy something else that does all of it without being hacked? How many people are tech savy enough to hack a tivo? My folks never could. Now they get all those features with their HR20's that they could never get with their Tivo.... Oh, and I almost forgot, the way that HR2's handle overlapping recordings is far superior to Tivo, and why Tivo doesn't do the same thing is beyond me, and I have never seen a hack to make it work...



captain_video said:


> The "greatness" of the hack is in the eye of the beholder. SA Tivo owners have enjoyed MRV (and yes, it does mean Multi-Room Viewing) functionality between Tivos for several years. This allows you to transfer shows between Tivos located in different areas of the house. DirecTivo owners never enjoyed this feature on a stock Tivo because of issues with studios regarding copyrights and such (i.e., direct digital transfers of the original source material). Those of us that learned how to hack our Tivos have enjoyed MRV functionality between DirecTivos for almost as long as SA Tivo owners. Those of you that stuck with plain vanilla DVRs are simply SOL.


As you say, the studios stopped this, yet we know we will see it on the HR2's at some point.. I wonder if thats because the studios don't mind it so much as long as they know that their property isn't going to be sent to everyones PC via a hack for saving onto DVD's and being sold all over the place illegally....



captain_video said:


> One of the "great" hacks has always been the ability to transfer videos from a Tivo to a PC for burning to DVD. SA Tivo owners have been able to do this for a while now and just recently S3 Tivos and Tivo HDs have gained this feature as well. HDTivo and DTivo owners were left in the lurch due to copyright issues with the studios. Once again, the hackers had the edge in this area. I had every episode of Seinfeld on DVD long before they were ever released commercially. I've got numerous other TV series on DVD that I recorded on my DTivos and HDTivos. I've been able to do this for about as long as I've owned my first Tivo, which I bought around '99 or '00.


And thats the reason that studios don't want you doing that, but... then again, today things have changed. Frankly, who cares about SD recordings, know that all digital HD broadcasts are out there. Tell me, do all the new HD Tivos send out an HD feed to a computer and allow you to put them on a BLU RAY DVD in full HD? I don't know, and if they do, well I will have to give you that one, assuming its not a hack....



captain_video said:


> Tivos have been a hobby of mine ever since they first came out. They've also been my passion once I learned you could hack them. I certainly don't expect everyone to share in that passion since everyone has their own personal preferences. Just don't belittle them because you didn't know what you could do with them. Some people can enjoy a fine wine whereas others would rather have something with a screw cap because it's easier to open.


I have no problem with you loving your tivo... Its just that I am concerned you think your tivo does all kinds of things that no one else does, and thats just not true... especially since everything that tivo has generally started with Replay... You love your tweaking, I can tell, and thats cool, I do to... but at what point does it become ridiculous that you HAVE to tweak a machine in order to get it to do what other machines on the market already do out of the box?



captain_video said:


> 2. No phone hack - allows you to use your Tivo without the need to keep it connected to a phone line. This is not an issue with SA Tivos since they need to be connected to a phone line 24/7 but it was a necessity for hacked DirecTivos to avoid taking unwanted software updates that would overwrite the installed hacks.


A hack to make sure you can hack.... Not needed if all the functions are coming online on purpose without the need for hacking....



captain_video said:


> 3. FTP - use a standard FTP program for transferring files to and from your PC.


HD? and MRV to computer coming soon to the HR2's, and it won't be a hack. And media share is already there.



captain_video said:


> 4. Telnet - communicate with your Tivo via a network connection and a terminal program using a command line interface.


To control your unit? yeah, the HR2's can be controlled via usb...



captain_video said:


> 5. Video extraction - transfer shows to your PC and burn them to DVD using commercially available programs.


legally questionable.... and again, can I do it with HD?



captain_video said:


> 6. Mfs_ftp - transfer videos using a commercial FTP program as well as transfer shows between Tivos using FXP protocol. This was a precursor to MRV in that you could transfer shows in tmf format that contained information on the extracted program. Useful if you wanted to transfer shows back to the same Tivo or to a different one, such as in the case of upgrading a hard drive without losing your recordings. This would retain the show information in the Now Playing list.


Once again, you do know that Replay had this way before Tivo and it was a readily accessible feature that required no hacks. In fact Replay got into trouble with the studios because when it first hit, you could actually trade shows with ANY other replay... so if someone you knew didn't record something at their house 3000 miles away, you could still let them watch your recording off of your machine....



captain_video said:


> 7. Customize the Almost there splash screen - add something unique instead of the ordinary DirecTV logo.


Seriously, if you need that splash screen changed, you are restarting your machine too often.... 



captain_video said:


> 8. TivoWebPlus - control and monitor your Tivo remotely from your PC. Add any number of plug-ins to backup and restore your season passes, wishlists, etc.


Again, Replay had this first... and while the HR2 has remote booking, I will say that it has a ways to go before it reaches those heights of Replay or Tivo, but I have a feeling that with the internet connection for the HR2's its only a matter of time before we get that functionality too...



captain_video said:


> 9. Add HMO features - view digital photos and play music on your Tivo, using your PC as a server.


Again, Replay did it before anyone else, and all the HR2's do it now as well, and frankly, they had that feature available on them in less amount of time than tivo did when it first came out..



captain_video said:


> 10. Add caller ID - view incoming calls on your TV screen.


Standard on all HR2's, and has been on some sat boxes since before Tivo and Replay even came out... Almost all DVR's have this ability, so why the need to hack to get it on a tivo?



captain_video said:


> Note that many of the aforementioned features are availabel on standalone models as well as the HR20. You can thank the hacking community for coming up with them and showing Tivo what could be done. Tivo just modified the hacks and included them in later software releases. Unfortunately, DirecTivo and HD Tivo owners never enjoyed many of the same features as other Tivos for reasons cited previously. There are numerous other hacks available but i just included many of the more popular ones that I could remember off the top of my head.


I don't think you can thank the TC for the features... You can thank ReplayTV though... I think the abilities were already know, but that Tivo has always been afraid of (*&*&%^$% off studios, and getting into legal battles with ReplayTV, so they wanted to bring things along slowly, and really went to town on them after settling all their legal disputes with ReplayTV. Replay never hesitated, and by (*&&*% off studios, hurt their funding from investors. The fact that almost every hack is now up and running or stated as coming soon on the HR2's, and the multitude of additonal features the HR2 does that the Directv Tivo's will never be able to do no matter how much hacking, I just don't see why you are supporting tivo today? I understand you used to love it, but its no longer at the forefront of Directv, and frankly, isn't doing so hot in general these days. It may not seem that way, but they are in for some big problems in a year if they don't get their software working right that they've been working on for over 3 years... Maybe the hackers need to help them out with that? Frankly, Directv buying Replay signals that Directv is more serious about their DVR's now than they ever where with tivo.....


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## mightythor88 (Sep 22, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> Frankly, Directv buying Replay signals that Directv is more serious about their DVR's now than they ever where with tivo.....


if directv is serious about having a top notch DVR - they need to get DLB going asap. With baseball season here the lack of DLB is ridiculous and just makes me realize how much I will miss my tivo come football season.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

mightythor88 said:


> if directv is serious about having a top notch DVR - they need to get DLB going asap. With baseball season here the lack of DLB is ridiculous and just makes me realize how much I will miss my tivo come football season.


I have posted my thoughts and reasonings as to why we don't have dlb and what needs to happen before we get it in the dlb thread... and thats where that discussion should stay... No matter what, one feature does not make any DVR, no matter what the feature is, a serious DVR or not...


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I don't understand at all why "hacks" make Tivo so great. As someone pointed out, if it were so great in the first place then why the need for the hacks at all.

But more to the point...hacks are used by what, .01% of the Tivo users? If that? Please. And there are a grand total of 3.9 million Tivo's still in use today (including the DirecTivo's which shrink by 155K a quarter and growing). Nearly 10 times that is the total active DVR market and growing by millions every year. Do the math on if those hacks actually count for anything. 

Tivo may be awesome (I still have a DirecTivo active in my household) but hacking isn't what makes it great since virtually nobody will use the hacks...

And like I posted before, Tivo users getting all excited about You Tube coming to the Tivo. Great for them. But I've been doing You Tube for over 6 months on my HR2x. Yawwwwwwn.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

wingrider01 said:


> Doubt it, my youngest is a dora expert and she knows the episodes and when to expect them, if she does not have them when she gets home from Day Care she will let me know. Add to the fact I just checked and nothing listed as canceled


I just checked and you were right, Dora hasn't been cancelled due to "unexpected error" since March 20th. Kudos to D* for ten days in a row of flawless recordings.:nono2:


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Do any of DirecTV's competitors that work with or offer Tivo boxes have similar sweet Tivo subscription deals like DirecTV does where it's $6/month for an unlimited number of Tivo boxes, or are they all on Tivo's regular standalone $14 (or whatever it currently is) per month per box?


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

raott said:


> I just checked and you were right, Dora hasn't been cancelled due to "unexpected error" since March 20th. Kudos to D* for ten days in a row of flawless recordings.:nono2:


Funny mine goes a lot further back then that with no missed episodes, guess you are just unlucky or ther is a conflict in priorities.

doesn't matter to me, the HR2X has been a 1000 times for dependable then the infamous HR10 Tivo units that I have had, the best thing that has happened to them is meeting Mr Remington, the last one is starting to die with constant reboots, it ill join it's 4 brothers in the grave yard soon and be replaced by a HR2X.

If y'all like the HR10, then great more power to you, just that the like/dislike of a unit is an opinion, some like one, some like the other. Personally I don;t believe I should have to jump through hoops to hack a unit to get the options that the HR2X already has.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

mightythor88 said:


> if directv is serious about having a top notch DVR - they need to get DLB going asap. With baseball season here the lack of DLB is ridiculous and just makes me realize how much I will miss my tivo come football season.


DLB may be important to some, but to others - not a very high priority, would rather have the new HDPC unit out, could care leass about DLB or wishlists or suggestions.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

wingrider01 said:


> Funny mine goes a lot further back then that with no missed episodes, guess you are just unlucky or ther is a conflict in priorities.


There is a thread that goes back over a year on this very issue, with many, many posts, by many, many different people. It has nothing to do with luck or a conflict in priorities.


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## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

captain_video said:


> I've never owned an HR20,





captain_video said:


> The bottom line is that you can't appreciate what you obviously don't understand.


Nor can you appreciate something that you have never had.....


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## gocardinals (Dec 12, 2005)

I'm sure this has been asked, but I couldn't find it. I currently have a Tivo 250, but am getting an H20 or 21 installed tomorrow. Can I have both hooked up to the same TV? Pros and cons? Thanks guys.


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

gocardinals said:


> I'm sure this has been asked, but I couldn't find it. I currently have a Tivo 250, but am getting an H20 or 21 installed tomorrow. Can I have both hooked up to the same TV? Pros and cons? Thanks guys.


Yes you can use both on the same TV. If you want to still use both tuners on the HD TiVo you will need to have another line ran to the H20/1.


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## gocardinals (Dec 12, 2005)

BMoreRavens said:


> Yes you can use both on the same TV. If you want to still use both tuners on the HD TiVo you will need to have another line ran to the H20/1.


Thanks! Will the installer do that for me tomorrow? I was thinking mainly for my wife, who really likes Tivo. I am switching for the HD.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

captain_video said:


> The bottom line is that you can't appreciate what you obviously don't understand.


I hacked the crap out of my Tivos. TivoWebPlus, MRV, HMO, video extraction, the works. And yet, I'm still glad to be rid of all but one Tivo, which won't be around much longer. The HR2x is a superior system, and once it has MRV, Tivo's last point of superiority will be gone. Good riddance, Tivo!


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

gocardinals said:


> Thanks! Will the installer do that for me tomorrow? I was thinking mainly for my wife, who really likes Tivo. I am switching for the HD.


It depends on how Directv set up the workorder. If it is a swap, the installer will not run new lines and will have to deactivate the hr10 before he can close the workorder. If the workorder is for a new outlet, the installer should run the two new cables for you. Ask the installer if you can see the workorder before he starts to make sure you can keep the hr10.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

captain_video said:


> OK, how about these (some of which I've already mentioned):
> 
> 2. No phone hack - allows you to use your Tivo without the need to keep it connected to a phone line. This is not an issue with SA Tivos since they need to be connected to a phone line 24/7 but it was a necessity for hacked DirecTivos to avoid taking unwanted software updates that would overwrite the installed hacks.
> 
> ...


Just to add to the above items, as all of the rest have been commented on.

2. Why would this be needed on the HR2x DVRs? Or the R15/16? They work just fine without being connected to a phone line.

7. I guess you would want to customize the almost there screen on a tivo. After all it stays on that screen for about 10 minutes when you restart the thing. Too bad that you lose some of your hacks every time you see that screen and then you have to go back and redo the hack before it will work again.

10. Why does such an advanced piece of equipment need a hack to get such a simple feature?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> Do any of DirecTV's competitors that work with or offer Tivo boxes have similar sweet Tivo subscription deals like DirecTV does where it's $6/month for an unlimited number of Tivo boxes, or are they all on Tivo's regular standalone $14 (or whatever it currently is) per month per box?


None that I am aware of.

Not sure what the pricing model is though for the Comcast-TiVo unit.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

captain_video said:


> What "cool things" can you do with a HR20 that the Tivo doesn't already do in a stock configuration?


Has TiVo figured out yet, how to use a single tuner... to record overlapping recordings on the same channel?

This feature is probably my number one used "different" feature on the HR2*... I use this on SCI-FI on Friday's so I can pad 5 minutes, to capture full recordings of teh SCI-Friday lineup...

Also very helpfull on other networks (like NBC), and Sports recordings... so you can pad long period of times for channels that carry live sport programs.

-----------

How about Mark and Delete, that you can use on the actual unit.. via the remote... instead of running over to your computer or pulling up the laptop to do it via TiVoWeb?

-----------

Advanced Boolean Logic in Searches how good is the searching via TiVoWeb?
Haven't tried TiVo web since some of teh very first versions.

-----------

So while yes... TiVo is a "tweakers" dream... that is also one of it's weeknesses.

You list Video Extraction, FTP transfers... accessing via telnet... and customizing the code... IMHO these are some of the very reasons where TiVo, Inc. has screwed up royally.... Those are serious issues that imbedded versions on carrier systems, are a big concern for them.

Content providers absolutely don't want their digital content easily "downloaded"...

I haven't looked but how hackable is the Comcast TiVo? Is it more like the R10, which you had to do a physical hardware modification to do it?

It has taken a long time, but some of the hacks that do enhance the GUI... have come along... and look good (Based on some of teh screen shots)... but they are still not blended into the GUI... and are overlays.

How user friendly is that.... outside the hack/tweeking world...
...

The one that you listed that had to make me last...

Customizing the boot screen....

How often are you seeing the boot screen, that this is something worth doing?

If I see my boot screen, outside doing the CE's... that isn't good... as pushed updates, are typically done while I am sleeping...

So I could care less if it is a standard static screen graphic, or the latest picture of my family.

---------

IMHO... All "hacked" to get features... should never be included in comparisons with the units... unless it is *.... If you have to open the unit, install custom code, ect... that is a hack (turning on 30s skip... that would not be).


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

The only reason I've never owned an HR20 is because I left DirecTV so I wouldn't get stuck in another 2-year commitment. FIOS became available and I made the switch and haven't regretted it one bit. I have two series 3 Tivos for recording FIOS channels but the vast majority of programming I record is via OTA antenna using my HTPC. I get 14 local HD OTA channels for free with no fees of any kind, even for guide data. 

If I had kept DirecTV I would probably own several HR20's, mainly because it's the only way to record DirecTV HD. It seems that some people are somehow blaming Tivo because DirecTV decided to switch to mpeg4 for HD broadcasts. I'm also getting the impression that some people think I don't like the HR20 just because I've never owned one, which couldn't be further from the truth. All reports I've read indicate they've worked out most of the bugs and it now works quite well from what I understand.

The vast majority of the hacks I mentioned are for the DirecTivo and HDTivo models. A lot of these features were already available on the SA models. The only way owners of the DirecTV models were ever going to see the hacks implemented on the DirecTV Tivo models was to do it themselves, at least at the time they were developed. HR20 owners can consider themselves lucky because without these hacks being brought to light it in a Tivo it is highly unlikely they would have ever seen the light of day in an HR20. Tivo hackers were pioneers that didn't wait around to see if someone else would implement the features they wanted and hand them over on a silver platter like the hacking nay-sayers want.

I'm well aware that ReplayTV developed a lot of their hacks before Tivo ever introduced them. I've been following the development of DVRs ever since they were first introduced. As indicated, ReplayTV got into a lot of hot water for pushing the envelope, making Tivo more than a bit cautious to venture into certain areas. From a survivability standpoint, can you blame them? The fact remains that ReplayTV is basically defunct as a DVR platform yet Tivo still manages to somehow survive. I loved my ReplayTV's and Panasonic Showstoppers and really hope that DirecTV implements many of the features that the ReplayTV models had to offer, now that they own the rights to them. 

From a user's standpoint, I actually preferred the ReplayTV and UltimateTV DVRs over my Tivos. ReplayTV limited themselves to analog cable and OTA reception so they basically took themsleves out of contention for being a top DVR in my household. I would have loved to see a DirecTV/ReplayTV model DVR. UltimateTV was abandoned by Microsoft and charged twice the monthly fees that my DirecTivos cost. Had ReplayTV stuck around and developed a model that would record digital cable and FIOS, then we'd be talking about a serious contender for the latest Tivo models. The cableco and Verizon DVRs are pure crap and should be placed in the nearest auto crushing machine, IMHO.

DirecTivos were the best platform for recording broadcast TV in any format when they were introduced. No other consumer recording device could record at the same level of quality since a DTivo recorded the digital stream from the satellites directly to a hard drive with absolutely no loss of quality. Hughes had a DirecTV receiver and digital VHS VCR combination that basically did the same thing. I owned one of these combos and it was really great, except for the fact that it was tape, had a limit of only 2 hours of recording capacity, and you couldn't scan through segments without losing the video signal. The DirecTivo was a godsend that allowed me to dump this awkward device. I have been totally tapeless for several years now.

The whole point of my discussion was to indicate that there are things you can do with a Tivo that you can't do with other DVRs. The possibilities are endless and the only limitation is with the imagination of the hackers. If you want features over and above what's included in a stock DVR like the HR20 or a ReplayTV, you're SOL, period! Newer features are being included in the HR20 and other models all the time. You can thank Tivo and the hacking community for paving the way, but I'm not holding my breath.

DirecTV has been looking for ways to get their customers to rid themselves of Tivo for several years now. Switching to mpeg4 put the final nail in the coffin for most Tivo owners and forced them to make the switch. If you want to record HD from DirecTV then the HR20 is the only option available to you. At least DirecTV got the HR20 right. If not, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. You might want to take a survey of standard definition DTivo owners that have also used the R15 and see how they feel about the two. I think you'll find the exact opposite reaction to Tivo vs. the DirecTV DVR.

FYI - the list of hacks I mentioned earlier was just something I threw together off the top of my head. I wouldn't expect everyone to agree that they belong in the top 10 hacks. A lot of them are more just for fun and not functionality (i.e., the splash screen). If you do a lot of hacking then you tend to reboot a lot. The splash screen just cuts down on the boredom of seeing the stock screen, sort of like changing the wallpaper background on your PC. It's ridiculously simple to do and amounts to nothing more than replacing a graphics file. Of course, this may be well beyond the capabilities of the nay-sayers that feel hacking isn't worth the effort.


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## Nightfall (Sep 1, 2003)

I am the same way. I was all about the Tivo. I got a pair of Tivos back in 2004. In late 2007, I replaced them with H20s and I never looked back. I thought I would miss them, and in the end, I never did. The H20 just is a better machine IMHO. 

Now, if the Tivos on Directv weren't gimped, I would probably like them more. For instance, if I could record on one and watch on another, that would be nice. The H20 doesn't have that either, but I may have missed that advantage if I moved to the H20 and Tivo had it.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

captain_video said:


> DirecTV has been looking for ways to get their customers to rid themselves of Tivo for several years now. Switching to mpeg4 put the final nail in the coffin for most Tivo owners and forced them to make the switch. If you want to record HD from DirecTV then the HR20 is the only option available to you. At least DirecTV got the HR20 right. If not, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. You might want to take a survey of standard definition DTivo owners that have also used the R15 and see how they feel about the two. I think you'll find the exact opposite reaction to Tivo vs. the DirecTV DVR.


I'm not so sure mpeg4 put a nail in the coffin for most Dtivo owners. Although I don't have the numbrs in front of me, I'd venture to say that the mpeg4 switch didn't affect 70% of the Dtivo customers. My guess is that most of the Dtivo customers were SD only.

As someone that has had (had two, one still active) a Dtivo, I have always liked my R15s more. My HR21 is even better.


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## Juppers (Oct 26, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I'm guessing that those of you that don't miss your Tivos never bothered hacking them for the extra features they can provide. That would certainly make sense since you'd be perfectly satisfied with a plain vanilla DVR and not one that can do lots of cool things. I mean, how can you miss something that you were never able to truly enjoy to the fullest extent in the first place? What you fail to realize is that a Tivo is not only a revolutionary piece of hardware, it's also a hacker's dream machine. There is no other DVR on the face of the earth that can be tweaked to do what a Tivo can do.
> 
> As a standard DVR, the Tivo has a lot of nice features most other DVRs lack. If you didn't use them then any other DVR would fit your needs, so what's to miss? Those of us that took our Tivos to the next level would differ with the opinion that the HR series is a better DVR, at least from a hacker's viewpoint. With the HR20, what you see is what you get. With a Tivo, what you get are infinite possibilities. I've never owned an HR20, mainly because I dumped DirecTV in favor of FIOS and the ability to keep on using Tivos. I've heard good things about the HR20, but with no way to hack it, it's just another DVR (yawn). Other DVRs are basically Tivo wannabes, including the HR20. If it weren't for Tivo and ReplayTV to pave the way into the home DVR market, the HR20, and every other DVR, would probably never have been born. Thank Tivo for the fact that you even have the HR20.


If you really want to hack away at a DVR box, build a MythTV system or VDR or any of the multitude of PC based DVRs out there. I was a big tivo fan, but they didn't keep up with the market and have been edged out of the places they shined the most.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Juppers said:


> If you really want to hack away at a DVR box, build a MythTV system or VDR or any of the multitude of PC based DVRs out there. I was a big tivo fan, but they didn't keep up with the market and have been edged out of the places they shined the most.


I've got an HTPC running BeyondTV4 with six ATSC tuners. Does that qualify?

I've also got an unRAID server with about 3TB of storage and more being added as the budget permits. I use it to stream DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray disc rips to my HTPC. I really hated to see Blu-Ray win the format war but by gosh they look absolutely fantastic on my 60" Sony SXRD set in 1080p.

I use my S3 Tivos for recording HD programs on FIOS. I can extract them to my main PC and create HD-DVDs using standard DVD-R blanks and my existing burner that play back in the original Hi-Def format on any set-top HD-DVD player with Dolby Digital audio. Who said HD-DVD is dead? Can you folks do this with your coveted HR20? I believe this is a feature that is rumored to being developed for the HR20/21 models but I've been able to do this with my hacked HR10-250's and S3 Tivos for years (actually, the S3 has only been hacked to do this for a little over a year but the HDTivos have had this capability ever since the killhdinitrd hack was developed several years ago). I can do this with my HTPC recordings quite easily since there is literally no hacking involved to unscramble the recordings. I can also extract and convert my Tivo recordings to transport streams and load them onto my server for playback using any compatible codec. Since the server is connected to my home network, anyone connected to it can stream my recordings to their PC or laptop for viewing anywhere in the house.

Until cablecard PCs are sold at a reasonable price there is currently no way to record encrypted QAM priogramming except with a S3 Tivo or Tivo HD. Cablecard PCs are available but at a cost that would exceed that of two or more Tivo HDs with the Tivo lifetime service.

DirecTV has been working on an outboard tuner module in conjunction with Microsoft that will allow you to record DirecTV programming using a PC. It is rumored that it will be released in the very near future. In fact, I believe I saw a post about it on themissingremote.com, but as it was posted on April Fool's Day I'll reserve any comment on it until additional reports can confirm its existence. The recordings will no doubt be encrypted and require the use of the tuner module for playback. I'm sure the hacking community will figure out a way to turn off the encryption so we can continue making backups of our favorite movies and shows. Non-hackers need not apply and may continue to use their wonderful HR20's. BTW, isn't that the DVR that is no longer available and was replaced by the ATSC tunerless model HR21? Now that was a real step forward in design. I wonder how much DirecTV is going to charge you for the privilege of having OTA recording capability? I suppose you could always pick up an HR10 and use it to receive your OTA programming for free.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

TigersFanJJ said:


> I'm not so sure mpeg4 put a nail in the coffin for most Dtivo owners. Although I don't have the numbrs in front of me, I'd venture to say that the mpeg4 switch didn't affect 70% of the Dtivo customers. My guess is that most of the Dtivo customers were SD only.
> 
> As someone that has had (had two, one still active) a Dtivo, I have always liked my R15s more. My HR21 is even better.


At it's peak there were only 250K HR10-250's in service.
At it's peak the SD DirecTivo's were around 4 million.

Only the HR10's are effected by the switch to MPEG4. The SD DirecTivo's keep on humming along just fine until they die.


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## HiDefGator (Nov 20, 2005)

captain_video said:


> The only reason I've never owned an HR20 is because I left DirecTV so I wouldn't get stuck in another 2-year commitment.


So you hooked up with Ugly Betty because Jessica Simpson required a two year commitment? Good choice.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

HiDefGator said:


> So you hooked up with Ugly Betty because Jessica Simpson required a two year commitment? Good choice.


Actually, it was a great choice. Apparently you've never seen FIOS HDTV. It blows away anything I've seen from DirecTV or Comcast to date. Considering that I get better internet service, unlimited long distance and outstanding picture quality, I know I made the right choice. Couple that with the fact that I can roll all three bills plus my Verizon wireless service into a single monthly bill, it's extremely convenient. I also get a discount on my TV service for having my land line phone service and internet bundled together.

The best part was that I could finally sever ties with Comcast, get way better internet service, and pay about two-thirds of what Comcast was charging me for mediocre service. My phone bill is also lower because I don't have to pay a separate bill for long distance with AT&T. My basic phone plan with unlimited long distance costs about the same as what I paid just for local service.

Did I also mention that Verizon will be beefing up it's HD channel lineup in the upcoming months? Once that happens, DirecTV will no longer hold the edge with the most HD channel offerings. With DirecTV you get, well, um, DirecTV. After 10+ years of watching DirecTV's picture quality steadily decline it's nice to finally have a service that offers me the best quality. With FIOS you get so much more at a competitive price, plus I get my choice of an excellent DVR. Sweeeeet!

FYI - most people don't even realize what DirecTV has been doing to their signal because the loss in quality has been gradual and not noticeable without something to compare it to. You've all been watching crap and just accepted it as good TV. I've got DVDs that I created from material I extracted 8 years ago that is markedly better than what you're seeing today, at least on the mpeg2 channels. DirecTV has stretched themselves to the limit with the bandwidth they have available. I left DirecTV before the mpeg4 sats went online but it appears that they've finally made up for years of poor quality transmissions.



TigersFanJJ said:


> As someone that has had (had two, one still active) a Dtivo, I have always liked my R15s more.


That certainly explains a lot.


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## HiDefGator (Nov 20, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> At it's peak there were only 250K HR10-250's in service.
> At it's peak the SD DirecTivo's were around 4 million.
> 
> Only the HR10's are effected by the switch to MPEG4. The SD DirecTivo's keep on humming along just fine until they die.


I think the 4 million SD Directivo number sounds a little high. 4 million was Tivo's total and that included almost 2 million standalone Tivo subs.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

TiVo is the Sonartec of DVRS.

(Sonartec made the first really great hybrid golf clubs, was the market leader, but is now in jeopardy of shutting down)

PS - All you need to do is see RSN baseball in MPEG-4 to know you made the right decision to leave TiVo.

And I was a TiVophile too


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

HiDefGator said:


> I think the 4 million SD Directivo number sounds a little high. 4 million was Tivo's total and that included almost 2 million standalone Tivo subs.


Last Tivo results call for the 4th quarter reported 2.2 million left. 
There are only 3.9 million total Tivo subs across the board.

In looking at past Tivo results:

July 2007 - 2.4 million
End of 2006 - 2.7 million
End of 2005 - 2.8 million
End of 2004 - 1.8 million

So I stand corrected. DirecTivo's were around 3 million at their peak. I think the 4 million number was actual active receivers (some people have more then one) but only 2.8 to 3 million actual subs.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

TigersFanJJ said:


> It takes less steps for the workaround than it does to make that change in the menu. Very, very simple.


ahhh, but your workaround has to be done each time. My menu change is one time...one time. Very, very, very simple. BTW with Tivo all I do is hit down on the remote and BAM...on the other tuner at the pause point. When a commercial comes, I hit pause and then down on the remote and BAM back to the other station which holds it's pause point and I can then continue watching. Lather, Rinse, Repeat on the Tivo.
On the HR20-100 it's: Lather, Rinse, Exit shower, dry off, get dressed, eat breakfast then repeat.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

luckydob said:


> ahhh, but your workaround has to be done each time. My menu change is one time...one time. Very, very, very simple. BTW with Tivo all I do is hit down on the remote and BAM...on the other tuner at the pause point. When a commercial comes, I hit pause and then down on the remote and BAM back to the other station which holds it's pause point and I can then continue watching. Lather, Rinse, Repeat on the Tivo.
> On the HR20-100 it's: Lather, Rinse, Exit shower, dry off, get dressed, eat breakfast then repeat.


No disrespect towards you.......but

If you're truly only watching 2 shows at the same time, once set up on the HR2x, its only Pause, Previous channel. How is that any different then Pause, Down arrow? Its still only 2 keystrokes.

I understand that the workaround isn't perfect, but it does work and its better then what we've had before, which was nothing.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Haven't you guys ever heard of macros? Program a single button on your universal programmable remote to do everything you mentioned with a single button press. No need to go through all the gyrations you both seem to enjoy.


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

captain_video said:


> Actually, it was a great choice. Apparently you've never seen FIOS HDTV. It blows away anything I've seen from DirecTV or Comcast to date. Considering that I get better internet service, unlimited long distance and outstanding picture quality, I know I made the right choice. Couple that with the fact that I can roll all three bills plus my Verizon wireless service into a single monthly bill, it's extremely convenient. I also get a discount on my TV service for having my land line phone service and internet bundled together.
> 
> The best part was that I could finally sever ties with Comcast, get way better internet service, and pay about two-thirds of what Comcast was charging me for mediocre service. My phone bill is also lower because I don't have to pay a separate bill for long distance with AT&T. My basic phone plan with unlimited long distance costs about the same as what I paid just for local service.
> 
> ...


Some of us (actually, I think a LOT of us) cant get FIOS. If it were an option, I would be looking into it. My 3 options are Optimum from Cablevision, UVerse from AT&T, or DirecTV.

Given my 3 options, Ive stuck with the best one on the list (D*).

Uverse HD stream thing was a joke, my uncle actually tried to get UVerse and after a month of AT&T trying to get it up and running, they paid for him to get back into DishNET.

And Ive seen Optimum/CV High Def. Not bad, until you want to pay an arm and a leg for a DVR. And then your other arm and leg for another DVR. No up front hardware cost goes away VERY quickly when each box costs 15.00/month.

Im not really sure if you were trying to take a stance "with attitude" but thats definitely how its coming off. I personally dont appreciate it, but hey its the internet, so to each his own.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

luckydob said:


> ahhh, but your workaround has to be done each time. My menu change is one time...one time. Very, very, very simple. BTW with Tivo all I do is hit down on the remote and BAM...on the other tuner at the pause point. When a commercial comes, I hit pause and then down on the remote and BAM back to the other station which holds it's pause point and I can then continue watching. Lather, Rinse, Repeat on the Tivo.
> On the HR20-100 it's: Lather, Rinse, Exit shower, dry off, get dressed, eat breakfast then repeat.


My guess is that the person likes suggestion if he/she didn't turn it off to begin with. If that's the case, it wouldn't be as easy as you have made it out to be. It would be more like turn it off in menu, go to live tv, change to channel you want to watch, press pause, press down arrow, change to other channel you want to watch, then you could change back and forth. When finished, you would then have to go back in the menu and turn suggestions back on (as I said, if you like suggestions).

Yes, it is easier on the tivo if you have suggestions turned off all the time. I never said it was easier on the HR2x receivers. It's just not as hard as it was made out to be. I rarely use DLB (even when I only had tivo), but it is a simple 15-20 second setup the few times that I do use it. It isn't perfect for a DLB power user, which is why it is called a workaround.



captain_video said:


> That certainly explains a lot.


:scratch: Trying to figure out why it is a bad thing to own and use the products that I am comparing.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

captain_video said:


> Actually, it was a great choice. Apparently you've never seen FIOS HDTV. It blows away anything I've seen from DirecTV or Comcast to date. Considering that I get better internet service, unlimited long distance and outstanding picture quality, I know I made the right choice. Couple that with the fact that I can roll all three bills plus my Verizon wireless service into a single monthly bill, it's extremely convenient. I also get a discount on my TV service for having my land line phone service and internet bundled together.
> 
> The best part was that I could finally sever ties with Comcast, get way better internet service, and pay about two-thirds of what Comcast was charging me for mediocre service. My phone bill is also lower because I don't have to pay a separate bill for long distance with AT&T. My basic phone plan with unlimited long distance costs about the same as what I paid just for local service.
> 
> ...


Did I just read a Verizon commercial?


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## RJonesUSC (Aug 28, 2007)

captain_video said:


> Did I also mention that Verizon will be beefing up it's HD channel lineup in the upcoming months? Once that happens, DirecTV will no longer hold the edge with the most HD channel offerings. With DirecTV you get, well, um, DirecTV.


The lack of HD channels is the only reason I don't have FIOS TV currently. Their internet speeds are insane and at such a great price. But until they increase the number of HD channels it just isn't an option for me.


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

RJonesUSC said:


> The lack of HD channels is the only reason I don't have FIOS TV currently. Their internet speeds are insane and at such a great price. But until they increase the number of HD channels it just isn't an option for me.


Im also wondering if "the other shoe" will fall eventually........once they've gotten all their customers, they'll start raising prices and providing less and less just like everyone else.

Kinda like how natural gas is more expensive than oil in my area. Just because the product itself isnt more expensive doesnt mean a company wont take advantage of high prices elsewhere!


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

RJonesUSC said:


> The lack of HD channels is the only reason I don't have FIOS TV currently. Their internet speeds are insane and at such a great price. But until they increase the number of HD channels it just isn't an option for me.


Yes, their internet is great, but you can have the internet without the TV service (which is what I do).

Even if they get the same number of HD channels as D*, I still wouldn't switch. Their DVR is useless and the cost of having to buy several tivos (and the monthly fees associated with them) just to utilize their service isn't worth it to me.

People rave about the PQ on FIOS, but I can't tell the difference (and I've viewed both, many times). That's not to say the difference doesn't exist, just that if it's there, it's very small.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

chrisexv6 said:


> Some of us (actually, I think a LOT of us) cant get FIOS. If it were an option, I would be looking into it. My 3 options are Optimum from Cablevision, UVerse from AT&T, or DirecTV.
> 
> Given my 3 options, Ive stuck with the best one on the list (D*).
> 
> ...


Sorry if I came across with an attitude but I was just responding in kind to an earlier post. I know FIOS isn't available to everyone right now and I wasn't trying to rub it in anyone's face. If it weren't available in my area I'd still be with DirecTV. I have several providers available as follows, in the order of personal preference: FIOS, DirecTV, Dish, and Comcast. Dish and Comcast are pretty much a tossup. I previously had wideband internet with them but with shared nodes I was paying way too much for poor internet connection speeds. I'm no big fan of Dish but their HD PVR is supposed to be a vast improvement over their earlier efforts. You'd pretty much have to drag me kicking and screaming back to Comcast.



TigersFanJJ said:


> :scratch: Trying to figure out why it is a bad thing to own and use the products that I am comparing.


My point exactly.



chrisexv6 said:


> Im also wondering if "the other shoe" will fall eventually........once they've gotten all their customers, they'll start raising prices and providing less and less just like everyone else.
> 
> Kinda like how natural gas is more expensive than oil in my area. Just because the product itself isnt more expensive doesnt mean a company wont take advantage of high prices elsewhere!


Isn't that the way it goes? All providers raise prices eventually. It's just a fact of life. Verizon has already had at least one price increase since I signed up with them. Rising costs all get passed along to the customers. You can thank your local legislators for any price increases because they have to approve them.



RJonesUSC said:


> The lack of HD channels is the only reason I don't have FIOS TV currently. Their internet speeds are insane and at such a great price. But until they increase the number of HD channels it just isn't an option for me.


Certainly no one can blame you for that. When I made the switch, DirecTV's mpeg4 sats and new HD channels were all vaporware with no firm promise date. Based on their previous track record of making such promises, I didn't have much faith that I'd be seeing any new HD channels from them anytime soon. Verizon was the clearcut winner in picture quality with basically the same HD channel lineup so there really wasn't any debate in making the switch. DirecTV only has one or two channels in their current HD lineup that I'd consider watching so I'm not really missing out on all that much. It's only a matter of time and bandwidth availability before other providers pick up on the same HD channels anyway.



sigma1914 said:


> Did I just read a Verizon commercial?


LOL. Sorry, but that wasn't my intent. I was just providing a testimonial as to why I thought I made a good choice when someone suggested I didn't. I can only assume that that individual doesn't have FIOS available in their area.


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## RJonesUSC (Aug 28, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Yes, their internet is great, but you can have the internet without the TV service (which is what I do).


I do as well and am lovin' it.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

captain_video said:


> Certainly no one can blame you for that. When I made the switch, DirecTV's mpeg4 sats and new HD channels were all vaporware with no firm promise date. Based on their previous track record of making such promises, I didn't have much faith that I'd be seeing any new HD channels from them anytime soon. Verizon was the clearcut winner in picture quality with basically the same HD channel lineup so there really wasn't any debate in making the switch.


Not that I want to perpetuate this whole thing, and I didn't go back and re-read things, but it seems you've mentioned many times that FIOS PQ is vastly better than DirecTV's HD (or something along that line).

Can I assume from the quote above that the comparison you are making is FIOS to the half-dozen MPEG2 HD channels DirecTV has? Talking about the sat launch and new HD as vaporware tells me that you switched long before the launch of the MPEG4 HD. Just out of curiosity, have you seen the new MPEG4 HD PQ? Or are your comparisons strictly to the old "legacy" HD stuff?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

JLucPicard said:


> Can I assume from the quote above that the comparison you are making is FIOS to the half-dozen MPEG2 HD channels DirecTV has? Talking about the sat launch and new HD as vaporware tells me that you switched long before the launch of the MPEG4 HD. Just out of curiosity, have you seen the new MPEG4 HD PQ? Or are your comparisons strictly to the old "legacy" HD stuff?


I believe he's referring to the old "legacy" HD stuff, as those are the same comments he made back in August when the FIOS topic came up.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

last time I checked, FIOS TV didn't have any of the sports packages like MLBEI or NHLCI. A non-starter for me.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

JLucPicard said:


> Not that I want to perpetuate this whole thing, and I didn't go back and re-read things, but it seems you've mentioned many times that FIOS PQ is vastly better than DirecTV's HD (or something along that line).
> 
> Can I assume from the quote above that the comparison you are making is FIOS to the half-dozen MPEG2 HD channels DirecTV has? Talking about the sat launch and new HD as vaporware tells me that you switched long before the launch of the MPEG4 HD. Just out of curiosity, have you seen the new MPEG4 HD PQ? Or are your comparisons strictly to the old "legacy" HD stuff?


Yes, I was mostly referring to the mpeg2 channels, both in SD and HD. I dropped DirecTV before the new mpeg4 HD channels went online so I'm unable to audition it directly on my own TV. In fact, I only know of one other person in my area that even has DirecTV so the only place I can view it is at a local retailer, which is no place to audition anything seriously. I have heard good things about the mpeg4 quality so DirecTV sound slike it has fixed a serious problem with their broadcast quality. DirecTV did have my locals available in mpeg4 prior to my making the switch to FIOS. However, considering they were offering a whopping 4 HD local channels vs. the 14 I can receive with my rooftop antenna and 12 channels with FIOS, I decided to drop DirecTV for greener pastures.

I compare FIOS to HD-DVD, Blu-Ray discs, and local OTA HD reception. Obviously, no provider can match the quality of either HD disc format since they can only provide material in either 720p or 1080i vs. 1080p for the HD discs. The most accurate comparison I can make is FIOS vs. the OTA HD local channels. That's as good as the signal gets from any provider and I can't see any difference between the FIOS channels and my OTA reception. The old DirecTV mpeg2 channels weren't even close.

Out of all the new HD channels that DirecTV is offering, the only one I'd probably watch on a regular basis is the Sci-Fi channel, and that's still limited to a handful of programs each week. UHD rebroadcasts Battlestar Galactica and the Stargate series in HD so that doesn't leave too many HD programs I'd be missing. I haven't seen a channel listing for the HD channels FIOS will be adding but I suspect it will contain most, if not all, of the HD channels currently offered by DirecTV.



wilbur_the_goose said:


> last time I checked, FIOS TV didn't have any of the sports packages like MLBEI or NHLCI. A non-starter for me.


That's a showstopper for a lot of people. If sports is your thing, DirecTV is definitely the provider to be with. OTOH, most people, including myself, tend to watch sports live and not record them as a rule. (That was a segway back to the original topic in case you didn't notice. ) I get to watch almost all of my local sports teams on the channels I do have so getting a sports package just to watch sports in general wasn't something I care about. If my team isn't in the game then I have little interest in watching it.


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## Proc (Jan 19, 2006)

IN the basement, we have an old RCA40 Tivo hooked up to a 27-inch Sony WEGA. After a few days watching the HDTV upstairs, my wife said she can now see the difference (after 2 years...takes her awhile).

Anyhow, she wants to get a HDTV for the basement and said, "I can still use my Tivo right?" She bummed out when I told her no.

I hope she likes the HR21 when I finally do the upgrade. Hopefully TIVO won't have that much of a hold on her.


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## storey13 (Nov 8, 2007)

I currently only have a 3 CRT SDTVs, but hope to get a HDTV soon. Does the HR21 have the auto record wishlist capability like Directivos? That is the feature that I use the most. We currently have a R10, a SAT-T60, and a R15. 

I absolutely hate using the R15, it is so annoying compared to my tivo units. 

Is the HR21 basically the same as the R15 as far as the way the menus work?

When I do get my HDTV (hopefully soon!), I will upgrade to an HR21 for the extra channels, but I am concerned about missing some of my tivo functionality. 

I like being able to hit only one button at the main tivo screen to shortcut to menus like 1 for season pass manager, 2 for to do list, 3 for wishlist, and 7 for manual recording.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

storey13 said:


> Does the HR21 have the auto record wishlist capability like Directivos?


It does, but it's not as powerful as Tivo's. Depending on how you use Tivo's Wishlist feature, the HR21's may or may not work out for you.


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## IBleedGreen (Dec 6, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> It does, but it's not as powerful as Tivo's. Depending on how you use Tivo's Wishlist feature, the HR21's may or may not work out for you.


I still have 1 Tivo HD unit in service, is DTV having any kind of special if you decided to trade one of these in. I knew awhile back ago you could and get a new HD DVR as a free upgrade. The 250's are still useful and yes you do get some HD channels. I just wish DTV had a HD package, so you could get everything in HD only, but I doubt that will happen, it seems like you need to order all the other crap to get anything... :eek2:


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

IBleedGreen said:


> The 250's are still useful and yes you do get some HD channels.


I don't know about any specials, but their usefulness is limited. You're missing out on so much, it's not even worth keeping around.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> I don't know about any specials, but their usefulness is limited. You're missing out on so much, it's not even worth keeping around.


The HR21 is just as limited yet I don't see anyone saying how bad it is. You know, the latest and greatest HD DVR from DirecTV that left out the capability to record OTA HD locals without using an add-on tuner module (is that even available yet?)? That's a serious deficiency in my book considering that DirecTV is shortchanging everyone in my area with regards to the availability of our locals in HD. I've already mentioned it in an earlier post so forgive my repetitiveness. DirecTV only provides me with 4 HD locals whereas I can receive 14 HD locals via OTA antenna, making the HDTivo a much more useful recording device for my locale. If all I cared about were the mpeg4 channels then the HR20/HR21 would be the DVR of choice. Obviously, YMMV.

An HDTivo can still receive and record all of the standard definition mpeg2 channels as well as any OTA HD channels available in your area. The only thing it can no longer do is record HD content broadcast by DirecTV. I suppose if we went by your standards then all of the standard definition DirecTivos and R15 DVRs are obsolete. That's going to come as quite a shock to all of those DirecTivo and R15 owners out there.:eek2:

FWIW, even when I had DirecTV and the mpeg2 HD channels the vast majority of programs I recorded were OTA HD locals. The HR10-250 is the perfect complement to the newer HR21. The HR21 can record the new mpeg4 HD channels while you can use the HDTivo to record everything else. In fact, having both DVRs increases your flexibility two-fold by having twice as many active tuners. The HDTivo is still a useful recording device and will remain so for quite some time since it is highly unlikely that DirecTV will shut down the mpeg2 sats anytime soon.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

captain_video said:


> The HR21 is just as limited yet I don't see anyone saying how bad it is. You know, the latest and greatest HD DVR from DirecTV that left out the capability to record OTA HD locals without using an add-on tuner module (is that even available yet?)?


I think it's available (it's on solidsignals web site), but if not it will be soon and so far most of the members who have needed an HR20 have received one (even if they had to send an HR21 back). If you read the first look regarding it, you'll realize that the combination of the 2 works better than the HR20 by itself, so I don't understand why you think it's limited or "bad" or that D* is "shortchanging" anyone.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

captain_video said:


> The only thing it can no longer do is record HD content broadcast by DirecTV. I suppose if we went by your standards then all of the standard definition DirecTivos and R15 DVRs are obsolete.


The SD Tivos could never receive HD programming, so they still receive all of the programming today that they did in the past. With the HD Tivo, you're paying the same $10/month everyone else is, but people with HR2x DVRs are getting 80 more channels of HD than you are. How is that not limited? You bought an HD Tivo to watch and record HD content, and it can no longer do that with new HD channels.


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## micky76ag (Feb 18, 2007)

Am I allowed to like both?

Or do have to pick a side?

My wife and I really enjoyed (and still do) our original Phillips DSR6000 SD DirecTivos – changed the way we watch TV forever.

My wife and I really enjoyed (and still do), our HR10-250 DirecTivo HD – hooked us on HD and opened up easy recording of OTA HD

My wife and I really enjoy our HR20-700 and all the new HD channels.

For us, they have all done the job we wanted done when we paid for them in a reliable, intuitive way.


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## jrinck (Apr 3, 2008)

The only things I miss from Tivo are the dual-live-buffers and that the Tivo would show you things like "Original Air Date", which is extremely useful.

Things I DO NOT miss from Tivo include the enormous amount of time it would take to reconfigure the season pass list, as well as no ability to continue watching TV while fiddling around with the menus.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

micky76ag said:


> Am I allowed to like both?
> 
> Or do have to pick a side?
> 
> ...


I'm with you, Micky. I've had many different models of stand-alone TiVos and DirecTiVos (including the HR10-250), and I now have HR20s and HR21s, too. You learn how to use them - then use them! All of these have worked really well for me, and I am very satisfied. If I had to take up arms to defend either camp, I'd probably play a neutral country!


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

jrinck said:


> The only things I miss from Tivo are the dual-live-buffers and that the Tivo would show you things like "Original Air Date", which is extremely useful.


The CE software for the HR20 and the national software for the HR21 shows the original air date.


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## jrinck (Apr 3, 2008)

Jeremy W said:


> The CE software for the HR20 and the national software for the HR21 shows the original air date.


Very nice, then! I actually appreciate this more than the dual-live buffers.


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## 94SupraTT (Nov 18, 2005)

luckydob said:


> ahhh, but your workaround has to be done each time. My menu change is one time...one time. Very, very, very simple. BTW with Tivo all I do is hit down on the remote and BAM...on the other tuner at the pause point. When a commercial comes, I hit pause and then down on the remote and BAM back to the other station which holds it's pause point and I can then continue watching. Lather, Rinse, Repeat on the Tivo.
> On the HR20-100 it's: Lather, Rinse, Exit shower, dry off, get dressed, eat breakfast then repeat.


Its almost comical to me how many on here downplay how cumbersome the workaround is when compared to Tivos DLB.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> The SD Tivos could never receive HD programming, so they still receive all of the programming today that they did in the past. With the HD Tivo, you're paying the same $10/month everyone else is, but people with HR2x DVRs are getting 80 more channels of HD than you are. How is that not limited? You bought an HD Tivo to watch and record HD content, and it can no longer do that with new HD channels.


HDTivos can still record HD content, just not the new ones broadcast by DirecTV. You bring up a good point regarding the $10 HD access fee. I'll be curious to know if DirecTV still requires HDTivo owners to pay this fee now that they no longer have access to DirecTV's HD programs. I mean, how can you pay an HD access fee when you no longer have access? I wouldn't be at all surprised if they respond by saying that you have access to OTA HD channels so that justifies the fee, even though DirecTV doesn't pay for the OTA content. I can see how they'd use that as a ploy to get HDTivo owners to switch to the HR20/21 models, even if it is underhanded.



spartanstew said:


> I think it's available (it's on solidsignals web site), but if not it will be soon and so far most of the members who have needed an HR20 have received one (even if they had to send an HR21 back). If you read the first look regarding it, you'll realize that the combination of the 2 works better than the HR20 by itself, so I don't understand why you think it's limited or "bad" or that D* is "shortchanging" anyone.


If the tuner module has finally been introduced then the shortcoming of the HR21 has now been alleviated, but only to a certain degree, IMHO. I do feel that leaving out the ATSC tuners was a major design flaw and that DirecTV should never have released it without them. You shouldn't have to keep patching a design by adding external boxes. The whole idea behind an integrated DirecTV receiver and DVR was to eliminate the need for extra boxes in the first place, which is why I made the switch to DTivos when they were first introduced. I use to have several S-VHS VCRs and the same number of DirecTV receivers in order to be able to record shows off DirecTV. One DTivo eliminated four other boxes. The HR21 is a giant step backwards in this regard. Instead of a single box, now you have two just to have the same capability as the HR20 or HDTivo. I am assuming, of course, that the add-on tuner module contains dual tuners. If it's just a single tuner then they screwed that design up as well.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

captain_video said:


> HDTivos can still record HD content, just not the new ones broadcast by DirecTV. You bring up a good point regarding the $10 HD access fee. I'll be curious to know if DirecTV still requires HDTivo owners to pay this fee now that they no longer have access to DirecTV's HD programs. I mean, how can you pay an HD access fee when you no longer have access? I wouldn't be at all surprised if they respond by saying that you have access to OTA HD channels so that justifies the fee, even though DirecTV doesn't pay for the OTA content. I can see how they'd use that as a ploy to get HDTivo owners to switch to the HR20/21 models, even if it is underhanded.


Yes they do... the same $9.99

They still have access to 5 + 2 + 2 channels
ESPN
ESPN2
TNT
HDNET
Discover Theater

And if you don't have any MPEG-4 equipment...
You still get Universal, and HDMovies

And then HBO-1 and SHOW-1


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

captain_video said:


> If the tuner module has finally been introduced then the shortcoming of the HR21 has now been alleviated, but only to a certain degree, IMHO. I do feel that leaving out the ATSC tuners was a major design flaw and that DirecTV should never have released it without them. You shouldn't have to keep patching a design by adding external boxes. The whole idea behind an integrated DirecTV receiver and DVR was to eliminate the need for extra boxes in the first place, which is why I made the switch to DTivos when they were first introduced. I use to have several S-VHS VCRs and the same number of DirecTV receivers in order to be able to record shows off DirecTV. One DTivo eliminated four other boxes. The HR21 is a giant step backwards in this regard. Instead of a single box, now you have two just to have the same capability as the HR20 or HDTivo. I am assuming, of course, that the add-on tuner module contains dual tuners. If it's just a single tuner then they screwed that design up as well.


Shortcomming?
Considering it was a planned item...

To allow flexibility and control costs.

We can argue all day about the HR21 and the ATSC features...
And I completely disagree that it was a "giant" step backwards.

Anyone that doesn't use OTA... has the exact same functionality... and guess what... that is a significantly high population... 
Those that don't need it... don't have to incure the cost for it...

And since you probably haven't seen the discussion...
It is a dual tuner... so there goes your last attack on the setup...

Anything else?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I wouldn't be at all surprised if they respond by saying that you have access to OTA HD channels so that justifies the fee, even though DirecTV doesn't pay for the OTA content.


Guide data isn't free.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

captain_video said:


> If the tuner module has finally been introduced then the shortcoming of the HR21 has now been alleviated, but only to a certain degree, IMHO. I do feel that leaving out the ATSC tuners was a major design flaw and that DirecTV should never have released it without them. You shouldn't have to keep patching a design by adding external boxes. The whole idea behind an integrated DirecTV receiver and DVR was to eliminate the need for extra boxes in the first place, which is why I made the switch to DTivos when they were first introduced. I use to have several S-VHS VCRs and the same number of DirecTV receivers in order to be able to record shows off DirecTV. One DTivo eliminated four other boxes. The HR21 is a giant step backwards in this regard. Instead of a single box, now you have two just to have the same capability as the HR20 or HDTivo. I am assuming, of course, that the add-on tuner module contains dual tuners. If it's just a single tuner then they screwed that design up as well.


I bet you don't own separates and can't understand why someone would want their home theater system to have a separate amp, pre amp, and tuner...

If you want to get real technical, I'll bet that by making the AM21 an outboard machine, that their is slightly less interference, (probably negligible unless you live right on the edge of the signal being broadcast), and that you could possibly get reception with that unit in a place where you couldn't get reception with an HR20, just because its outboard. For this reason, I would call it a design UPGRADE.

If your going to go to extremes, I will too....


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Guide data isn't free.


True.. I do wonder if people who only have MPEG-2 HD equipment will still pay the HD Access fee after they shut off all MPEG-2 HD feeds. Actually, I wonder how many people will only have MPEG-2 HD boxes by September anyway?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I wonder how many people will only have MPEG-2 HD boxes by September anyway?


It probably won't be too different from where it's at today, wherever that is. Even today, it's incredibly foolish to be hanging on to the MPEG2 HD platform. You're just not getting what you're paying for. You can't see the vast majority of DirecTV's HD channels, and yet you're still paying exactly the same price as someone who can. It just doesn't make sense.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> It probably won't be too different from where it's at today, wherever that is. Even today, it's incredibly foolish to be hanging on to the MPEG2 HD platform. You're just not getting what you're paying for. You can't see the vast majority of DirecTV's HD channels, and yet you're still paying exactly the same price as someone who can. It just doesn't make sense.


Making sense... Yeah, tell that to the people complaining about no new HD Tivos and that the HR2 is inferior simply because it doesn't have DLB....


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Bring back Tivo!


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> I bet you don't own separates and can't understand why someone would want their home theater system to have a separate amp, pre amp, and tuner...
> 
> If you want to get real technical, I'll bet that by making the AM21 an outboard machine, that their is slightly less interference, (probably negligible unless you live right on the edge of the signal being broadcast), and that you could possibly get reception with that unit in a place where you couldn't get reception with an HR20, just because its outboard. For this reason, I would call it a design UPGRADE.
> 
> If your going to go to extremes, I will too....


Your assumption would be dead wrong. Having an outboard tuner doesn't necessarily make it a better design. If the tuner could be used with other devices then it would provide more flexibility. If not, then it's just another box that adds to the clutter.

I used to have a separate preamp (Counterpoint tube hybrid), A/V switcher, Dolby Pro-Logic processor, Dolby Digital processor, AM/FM tuner, multiple S-VHS VCRs, D-VHS VCR, Beta VCR, multiple DirecTV tuners, Laserdisc player, DVD player, CD player, turntable, moving coil preamp, and separate monoblock amplifiers for each speaker in my 5.1 surround system, except for the powered subwoofer. That enough separates for ya? Switching to an integral preamp/processor (B&K Reference 30) eliminated the need for the A/V switcher, preamp, AM/FM tuner, Dolby Pro-Logic, processor, and Dolby Digital processor. The overall performance of my system improved dramatically, even though most of the hardware it replaced was considered very high end at the time (I hate to use the term "state-of-the-art" because it's abused badly by the press since they consider almost everything they review as such). FYI - I've been into high-end audio and home theater for over 40 years so I've learned a thing or two along the way.

I further streamlined my system by eliminating the standalone DirecTV receivers and S-VHS and D-VHS VCRs (the Beta went as well). Now I have just the preamp/processor, HD-DVD player, two S3 Tivos, and an HTPC with six ATSC tuners. I still have the monoblock amps but the Vandersteen surround system has been upgraded to a Definitive Technology Mythos setup.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Shortcomming?
> Considering it was a planned item...
> 
> To allow flexibility and control costs.
> ...


I'm not sure exactly how it adds more flexibility. You either use the tuners or you don't. Integrating the tuners into a single box makes it more flexible, not the other way around. If you want to record OTA broadcasts then you have to get another box to do the same thing the HR10-250 and HR20 both do in a stock configuration. Tooling up to manufacture a separate device rather than integrating it into an existing design is generally more expensive. If fewer customers need the outboard tuner module then that actually costs DirecTV money because it will result in a lower production run, making the cost per unit much higher. I would like to thing that the folks at DirecTV had a rational reason behind the thought process when coming up with the design. I still think they screwed up and then built the tuner as a fix.

You are correct in the asumption that I have not followed the threads on the tuner module. Had you read the last part of my previous post you would have seen the caveats I placed on my argument, making the dual tuner issue a moot point.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> Guide data isn't free.


Sure it is. I can get free guide data on any one of my unsubbed DTivos and HDTivos anytime I like, and I don't even have DirecTV!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

captain_video said:


> I'm not sure exactly how it adds more flexibility. You either use the tuners or you don't. Integrating the tuners into a single box makes it more flexible, not the other way around. If you want to record OTA broadcasts then you have to get another box to do the same thing the HR10-250 and HR20 both do in a stock configuration. Tooling up to manufacture a separate device rather than integrating it into an existing design is generally more expensive. If fewer customers need the outboard tuner module then that actually costs DirecTV money because it will result in a lower production run, making the cost per unit much higher. I would like to thing that the folks at DirecTV had a rational reason behind the thought process when coming up with the design. I still think they screwed up and then built the tuner as a fix.


Ok, you're missing a very important point. The vast majority of DirecTV subs do not use OTA and never will.

So DirecTV lowers the cost *to them* and to the customer by $100 by eliminating the OTA tuners. Since the vast majority will never use said OTA tuners they aren't missing anything and DirecTV saves a lot of money, in the millions, on production costs. And us the subs also save money because the cost is not lower.

Now, if you so desire to get OTA DirecTV will provide you an OTA tuner to go with that HR21 for the cost of $60 or so, pretty much what it makes to manufacture. DirecTV loses nothing on the deal and the sub getting it is still $40 ahead vs. the receiver that had the OTA tuners built in.

It's a win-win for everyone from the DirecTV bean counters to the sub that will never use OTA to even the few that do use OTA.

Nobody is losing here.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Ok, you're missing a very important point. The vast majority of DirecTV subs do not use OTA and never will.
> 
> So DirecTV lowers the cost *to them* and to the customer by $100 by eliminating the OTA tuners. Since the vast majority will never use said OTA tuners they aren't missing anything and DirecTV saves a lot of money, in the millions, on production costs. And us the subs also save money because the cost is not lower.
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying about everyone not having access to OTA channels so I'm not missing a thing. What gets me is that the subscribers that do have OTA channel access now have to pay a premium to get them whereas they used to get them at no extra charge with the HDTivos and HR20. How is that a win for those subscribers? The other subscribers that can't get OTA programming are unaffected either way so it means nothing to them. As for lowering the cost, many subscribers can get a deal for the HR20 (or at least they used to) at a cost of only $99 or even get it for free if they're an HDTivo owner looking to upgrade. Even non-HDTivo owners are getting similar deals.

The whole pricing structure is ludicrous because it varies from customer to customer. What irks me is that DirecTV charges you for hardware you're only leasing and still requires a commitment on top of that. I'd like to see them offer firm pricing based on the customer's preference. Offer the DVR at a reduced cost or for free with a commitment or charge the regular $299 with no commitment. Frankly, I don't feel that there should be any upfront costs or commitments required with leased hardware. I guess DirecTV doesn't feel the need to be competitive with other providers in this regard. It's been a major sticking point with me and DirecTV for many years and was one of the deciding factors in my making the switch to FIOS.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

So long TiVo.

Hello missed recordings.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I guess DirecTV doesn't feel the need to be competitive with other providers in this regard.


I don't know why you did the roll eyes, because that statement is absolutely correct. DirecTV is signing up customers at a record pace and has been for quite a while, why should they change things so that they make less money? That's not how business works.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

captain_video said:


> ... What gets me is that the subscribers that do have OTA channel access now have to pay a premium to get them whereas they used to get them at no extra charge with the HDTivos and HR20.


This is incorrect. It now costs $40 less to get an HR21 and the ATSC tuner than it did to get an HR20.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

man_rob said:


> This is incorrect. It now costs $40 less to get an HR21 and the ATSC tuner than it did to get an HR20.


And not to mention the HR10 (HDTiVo) was $1000 when it was first released.

And the HR20 you had to have the HD-Access (OR HD Package when it was there), to have access to the ATSC channels.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And the HR20 you had to have the HD-Access (OR HD Package when it was there), to have access to the ATSC channels.


Not when it first came out. They changed that recently.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> Not when it first came out. They changed that recently.


Not sure when they changed it... but it has been a long while...

If that is the case... then I stand corrected.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

captain_video said:


> The whole pricing structure is ludicrous because it varies from customer to customer. What irks me is that DirecTV charges you for hardware you're only leasing and still requires a commitment on top of that. I'd like to see them offer firm pricing based on the customer's preference. Offer the DVR at a reduced cost or for free with a commitment or charge the regular $299 with no commitment. Frankly, I don't feel that there should be any upfront costs or commitments required with leased hardware. I guess DirecTV doesn't feel the need to be competitive with other providers in this regard. It's been a major sticking point with me and DirecTV for many years and was one of the deciding factors in my making the switch to FIOS.


That you don't agree with DirecTV's terms of service is well within your rights as a consumer, and switching to FiOS seems to be a great move for you. However, for the vast majority of us, the things that irk you so much are not really issues for us.

I have a DirecTiVo, and while it is nice, I enjoy my DirecTV DVR just as much, if not more.

You can hang out around this DBS site, even though you are now a FiOS customer, (Wouldn't you get more use out of a FiOS site now?) but don't expect a lot of agreement from us.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

captain_video said:


> What gets me is that the subscribers that do have OTA channel access now have to pay a premium to get them whereas they used to get them at no extra charge with the HDTivos and HR20. How is that a win for those subscribers?


Well, as I pointed out to you but you chose to ignore and other have pointed out but I just had to post, they aren't paying a premium.

HR20- $299
HR21 *with* OTA addon - $259

So tell me then, how is the subscriber getting screwed here?

The vast majority of subs are now saving $100 and those that need OTA are still saving $40. Looks like a win-win to me.


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## micky76ag (Feb 18, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Even today, it's incredibly foolish to be hanging on to the MPEG2 HD platform. You're just not getting what you're paying for. You can't see the vast majority of DirecTV's HD channels, and yet you're still paying exactly the same price as someone who can. It just doesn't make sense.


If the MPEG-2 receiver is your only HD receiver, your statement makes perfect sense.

However, there is still a lot of usefulness for a mirrored, HR10-250.

The key being able to record four network HD channels at the same time. Two via OTA with HR10-250 and two via sat with the HR20-700.

All the other HD channels that we watch regularly are the types which have many repeat showings of the same show/movie/episode, so one HR20-700 is fine for conflicts - never need to do more than two at a time.

But, for us, the network series shows during prime time often result in the need to record three or four things at once.

Why trade in my paid for HR10-250 for another MPEG-4 receiver at $170 or more when it still does what I need it to do - record OTA HD?


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, as I pointed out to you but you chose to ignore and other have pointed out but I just had to post, they aren't paying a premium.
> 
> HR20- $299
> HR21 *with* OTA addon - $259
> ...


The actual price isn't really relevent because everyone seems to get their DVRs for different prices these days. It all depends on which CSR you talk to at the time you make the request. My point was that in order to receiver OTA channels you now have to get an extra box to handle the task, which may or may not cost you extra. The difference in cost between the HR20 and HR21 is more likely due to lower production costs of the basic DVR since it is a 2nd generation device. The series 3 Tivos were $799 when they were introduced but the Tivo HD is only $299 list price. It only has slightly fewer features, but you don't have to pay the hefty premium just to have it THX certified.



man_rob said:


> That you don't agree with DirecTV's terms of service is well within your rights as a consumer, and switching to FiOS seems to be a great move for you. However, for the vast majority of us, the things that irk you so much are not really issues for us.
> 
> I have a DirecTiVo, and while it is nice, I enjoy my DirecTV DVR just as much, if not more.
> 
> You can hang out around this DBS site, even though you are now a FiOS customer, (Wouldn't you get more use out of a FiOS site now?) but don't expect a lot of agreement from us.


Wow, that's certainly magnanimous of you! I hang out here because I've had DirecTV for over 10 years and I've owned Tivos and numerous other DVRs since they were first introduced. I figure I've learned a thing or two along the way and have some insight to offer, whether you agree with it or not. Just remember that anything I say here is nothing more than my own opinion, so you can take it or leave it. I'm not trying to convert anyone or bash DirecTV or their DVRs. I'm just offering up pros and cons of various topics of discussion.

I have no doubt that most of you are perfectly content with DirecTV's terms of service (a flock of sheep just came to mind for some reason). But then I'm guessing that most of you migrated over from cable or possibly even Dish. DirecTV must seem like the greatest thing since white bread. I used to change DVRs like some people changed socks, so the extended commitment was a major issue with me. I realize that's not the norm, at least not unless you check out the DVR inventories listed under the signatures of members of the Tivo Community Forum. I'll bet the vast majority of DirecTV subscribers still have the original equipment that was installed when they first signed up for service so they are no longer in a commitment period. I just don't like the idea of being tied to one particular service should I ever decide to switch. It's a little something we enjoy in this country called freedom of choice. I object to any corporation that tries to deprive me of that right.

Unless you've had other services to compare with DirecTV you'll never know any better. FIOS definitely has its own set of issues but for now, the pros far outweigh the cons. The opposite was true for DirecTV when I made the switch and its still true regarding some of their policies. Things have improved quite a bit in certain areas with DirecTV since that time but I doubt that I'll consider coming back to them anytime soon, especially once FIOS improves their HD channel lineup. For the vast majority of people that don't have FIOS available to them, DirecTV is probably the best provider they can get. However, if FIOS is available to you I'd definitely check it out and see if it looks good to you.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

captain_video said:


> The actual price isn't really relevent because everyone seems to get their DVRs for different prices these days. It all depends on which CSR you talk to at the time you make the request. My point was that in order to receiver OTA channels you now have to get an extra box to handle the task, which may or may not cost you extra. The difference in cost between the HR20 and HR21 is more likely due to lower production costs of the basic DVR since it is a 2nd generation device. The series 3 Tivos were $799 when they were introduced but the Tivo HD is only $299 list price. It only has slightly fewer features, but you don't have to pay the hefty premium just to have it THX certified.
> 
> Wow, that's certainly magnanimous of you! I hang out here because I've had DirecTV for over 10 years and I've owned Tivos and numerous other DVRs since they were first introduced. I figure I've learned a thing or two along the way and have some insight to offer, whether you agree with it or not. Just remember that anything I say here is nothing more than my own opinion. I'm not trying to convert anyone or bash DirecTV or their DVRs. I'm just offering up pros and cons of various topics of discussion.


Are you upset that you were not offered (didn't ask for) a deal? Other TV providers also offers deals on products and services to get/keep customers.

Why does it bother you so much that it there is a separate tuner box, allowing those who don't need OTA to pay less? (Those who do want OTA are still paying less than for previous DVR models.) You even admit that DirecTV is offering deals, so probably many could get the new set up for an even better price.

You see, you don't seem to be offering any insights. You're coming off as one of those folks who starts the threads, that ultimately get locked, "After 10 years, I'm leaving DirecTV.", as if everyone else was holding their breath awaiting your decision. You're like one of the Dish people who posts more in the DirecTV forums than they do in their own. Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

We get it, you like TiVo, and DirecTV betrayed you by marketing their own brand of DVR. You made the right choice _for you_ in leaving DirecTV. For the price of $300, you can get the HD Tivo, that only holds 20 hours of HD programming. It is your right to enjoy that DVR. You endlessly repeating that you hate DirecTV, and their DVRs really isn't insight. Again, you can hang out in this DBS forum, even though you are no longer a satellite TV customer, but don't pretend that it is anything noble. You are here to rant.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

captain_video said:


> I have no doubt that most of you are perfectly content with DirecTV's terms of service (a flock of sheep just came to mind for some reason). But then I'm guessing that most of you migrated over from cable or possibly even Dish. DirecTV must seem like the greatest thing since white bread. I used to change DVRs like some people changed socks, so the extended commitment was a major issue with me. I realize that's not the norm, at least not unless you check out the DVR inventories listed under the signatures of members of the Tivo Community Forum. I'll bet the vast majority of DirecTV subscribers still have the original equipment that was installed when they first signed up for service so they are no longer in a commitment period. I just don't like the idea of being tied to one particular service should I ever decide to switch. It's a little something we enjoy in this country called freedom of choice. I object to any corporation that tries to deprive me of that right.
> 
> Unless you've had other services to compare with DirecTV you'll never know any better. FIOS definitely has its own set of issues but for now, the pros far outweigh the cons. The opposite was true for DirecTV when I made the switch and its still true regarding some of their policies. Things have improved quite a bit in certain areas with DirecTV since that time but I doubt that I'll consider coming back to them anytime soon, especially once FIOS improves their HD channel lineup. For the vast majority of people that don't have FIOS available to them, DirecTV is probably the best provider they can get. However, if FIOS is available to you I'd definitely check it out and see if it looks good to you.


We are sheep now for DirecTV? What does that make you for TiVo and FiOS? Why do you deem our choices less than yours? You like FiOS because it is the best choice for you. Why do you feel the need to come here, to a forum which no longer applies to you, just knock others for making the choices that are best for them? Again, who are you trying to convince, us, or yourself?


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

IMO people who want OTA SHOULD pay more. This is a satellite service period! If you want something more(and in this case, outside of the DirecTV service) you pay more GET IT!

DirecTV is a Satellite service. Keep repeating it until you understand.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

jjohns said:


> So long TiVo.
> 
> Hello missed recordings.


had them with the HR10, plus reoccurring spontaneous reboots, system lockups, etc so you should not miss anything. At least with the 20 it is a lot less frequent, almost to the point of being non-existant


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## Gus (Dec 19, 2007)

TiVo...I had three hacked working TiVo's back when, and I don't really miss them, but I am forever thankful that they came along and a bit sentimental about them.

I now have two HR20's and two HR21's each with 1TB exterior drives, and am very happy. I can't possibly find enough acceptable programming for them...there remains very little programing worth watching...yeah, I have always employed overkill...why, I don't really know...perhaps a psychiatrist would know...but I wouldn't want to hear it.

I do miss being able to stop while fast forwarding to where I want it to stop. Tivo's were easier to stop at the right place. With the HR2x's I find it superior to go forward at the 3 rate. With the 2 rate, I sure can't get it to stop at the right place. The other side of it is when you go forward at the 3 rate you have to have quick recognition and reaction time or you go too far forward. Then going back in small steps sometimes causes my machines to lose audio for a few moments, so they could improve this a bit. I guess I could start counting the number of clicks to get it to the right place and use the small step clicker, but it seems commercial breaks are a bit variable in length. Craig Ferguson's and other talk show commercial breaks are very unpredictable in length. I do watch commercials though but not after the third time, how else would I know what to buy, and a lot of times the commercials are better than the program, especially the current programing or lack thereof...

All in all though, these do a really swell job, and I am glad I have them, now if we only had some programing worth recording...sigh...even my wife is getting tired of "Are You Being Served".


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## jrinck (Apr 3, 2008)

When DirecTV first came out with their DVR a couple of years ago, the reviews here pretty much showed it wasn't ready for prime time. It was fun to mock their arrogance in thinking they'd steal people away from Tivo in favor of their inferior POS.

But now, as a leaser of two HR21s, I'm not missing my DirecTivo all that much anymore. Dual-live buffers were nice, but other than that, I prefer the functionality of the DirecTV unit. 

I have to give credit to DirecTV for turning their version1.0 waste-of-time into something that in many ways is BETTER than Tivo. What I once mocked I now recommend.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

man_rob said:


> Are you upset that you were not offered (didn't ask for) a deal? Other TV providers also offers deals on products and services to get/keep customers.


Not at all. I have no doubt that I'd have gotten some sort of deal had I decided to stick with DirecTV. I just didn't like the idea of getting stuck in a commitment without knowing if or when the mpeg4 channels would ever be going online. Remember that I made the switch prior to the activation of said channels after several promise dates had already come and gone. I'm only pointing out the inconsistencies in DirecTV's pricing structure when it comes to their latest DVRs (and service in general when it comes right down to it). Why is it that DirecTV has to bribe us with enticements to get us to stay? If the product was as good as they say then there should be no need for a commitment or other ways to keep us locked into their service.



> Why does it bother you so much that it there is a separate tuner box, allowing those who don't need OTA to pay less? (Those who do want OTA are still paying less than for previous DVR models.) You even admit that DirecTV is offering deals, so probably many could get the new set up for an even better price.


I believe I already conceded that point. I've also explained why I don't like having another box cluttering up my A/V rack so why are you asking a redundant question? Apparently you place too much stock on what I think (I certainly don't ).



> You see, you don't seem to be offering any insights. You're coming off as one of those folks who starts the threads, that ultimately get locked, "After 10 years, I'm leaving DirecTV.", as if everyone else was holding their breath awaiting your decision. You're like one of the Dish people who posts more in the DirecTV forums than they do in their own. Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?


Why is it people get defensive when you point out the flaws in a system that they believe in so strongly? You're simply too close to the problem to realize it even exists. I'm also not the OP so I didn't start anything. I just offered my opinion and some people seem to be taking it far too seriously.:sure:



> We get it, you like TiVo, and DirecTV betrayed you by marketing their own brand of DVR. You made the right choice _for you_ in leaving DirecTV. For the price of $300, you can get the HD Tivo, that only holds 20 hours of HD programming. It is your right to enjoy that DVR. You endlessly repeating that you hate DirecTV, and their DVRs really isn't insight. Again, you can hang out in this DBS forum, even though you are no longer a satellite TV customer, but don't pretend that it is anything noble. You are here to rant.


No, you don't get it. It's not that DirecTV betrayed me but rather that they totally screwed all of the HDTivo owners that paid huge sums of money to own an HR10-250. Their answer is to give you a "deal" on a new HD DVR that you don't actually own. You obviously never read through all of my posts or you would realize I never said I hated DirecTV. In fact, I've pretty much said the opposite. I just don't like certain restrictions and policies that they impose on their customers. Other than that, I like DirecTV just fine. In fact, I already mentioned that I would no doubt have several HR20's had I stuck with DirecTV. FYI - I have series 3 Tivos and not Tivo HDs so they hold about 30 hours of HD programming in their stock configuration. I have them both upgraded to about 60 HD hours apiece.



man_rob said:


> We are sheep now for DirecTV? What does that make you for TiVo and FiOS? Why do you deem our choices less than yours? You like FiOS because it is the best choice for you. Why do you feel the need to come here, to a forum which no longer applies to you, just knock others for making the choices that are best for them? Again, who are you trying to convince, us, or yourself?


I don't know, you tell me. All I said was that the vision came to mind. OTOH, if the shoe fits. You really seem to be taking this far too personally. I never said anyone made a bad choice by sticking with DirecTV so get over it already. It seems to me you're the one trying to convince yourself that DirecTV is the correct choice.

BTW, the real reason I prefer Tivo over any other DVR currently offered is the fact that I can extract my recordings to my PC and burn them to DVD. I was trying to avoid this topic but there it is. The much vaunted HR20/HR21 may be able to transfer shows between other DVRs using MRV but I don't believe they will be able to perform this function. Until recently, this was a function that required the Tivo to be hacked in order to facilitate the transfers (S2 SA units are the exception, of course). Now that TivoToGo has been implemented on the latest S3 and Tivo HD models, anyone can transfer shows to their PCs. Hacking the S3 and Tivo HD models allows the transfers to occur in a fraction of the time it takes for TTG to accomplish the same task. You also don't have to deal with the proprietary .tivo wrapper used for the extracted files. Fortunately, VideoReDo removes this and creates standard mpeg2 files from the extracted videos.

Not only can I transfer HD programming to my PC but I can create my own homebrew HD-DVDs using standard DVD blank media and my existing DVD burner. The resulting discs play back in HD with Dolby Digital audio in any set-top HD-DVD player (whoever said HD-DVD was dead should rethink this ). I've got all of the Star Wars movies in HD as well as the complete Lord of the Rings trilogy, just to name a few.

Before the introduction of HD DVRs, I recorded the complete Seinfeld series to DVD years before it was commercially released. I have countless other TV series on DVD as well, including every Simpsons episode ever broadcast (400 plus and counting). The advantage of extracting videos using either of these methods is that you retain the original picture quality and digital audio whereas a video capture method using the S-video outputs limits you to 480i resolution (i.e., standard definition). How's that for insight?



Tom_S said:


> IMO people who want OTA SHOULD pay more. This is a satellite service period! If you want something more(and in this case, outside of the DirecTV service) you pay more GET IT!


Wow, pay extra for a free service! What an amazing concept! DirecTV also charges you an extra $10 per month for the privilege of recording free TV. FWIW, I used my HDTivos primarily for recording OTA HD channels. DirecTV had pitifully little to offer in the way of HD programming back when HDTivos were first introduced. Now I use an HTPC with six ATSC tuners to record all of my OTA HD channels and, guess what? It doesn't cost me a cent!



> DirecTV is a Satellite service. Keep repeating it until you understand.


You might want to tell them that. They keep trying to sell themselves as being so much more. I guess the internet and DOD stuff is just a figment of my imagination.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

captain_video said:


> I just didn't like the idea of getting stuck in a commitment without knowing if or when the mpeg4 channels would ever be going online. Remember that I made the switch prior to the activation of said channels after several promise dates had already come and gone.


Actually DirecTV never promised anything and never missed any dates. They never gave a launch date for MPEG4 HD until *after* the D10 sat was up and operational and then they announced September 2006 (man, almost 2 years ago now!) So I'm unsure what promises they missed. However, there have always been many rumors on the various forums which people take as word from the company and then feel cheated that the "promise" that never was didn't come to pass. One only need to take a look at the Dish forums here and at Satguys to see this in full swing now with the Dish HD launches. Dish hasn't come out and said a word and yet the rumors fly and people feel cheated when they don't come. But Dish never really cheated them because they never promised anything.

Anyway...that's the past.



> No, you don't get it. It's not that DirecTV betrayed me but rather that they totally screwed all of the HDTivo owners that paid huge sums of money to own an HR10-250.


People only have themselves to blame for that really. It was very shortly after the HR10 was released that the whole MPEG4 plan started to emerge. I personally refused to buy an HR10 just because of that. Sure I went 2 more years with no HD DVR but I also never paid $1000 for a box that I knew wasn't going to work with the new channels. Now you can say that most people didn't know but that again is their fault. If I'm going to spend $1000 bucks I'm sure going to do a ton of research into what's up with that product. I know most people don't but again, it's their fault for not being informed.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

captain_video said:


> Wow, pay extra for a free service! What an amazing concept! DirecTV also charges you an extra $10 per month for the privilege of recording free TV. FWIW, I used my HDTivos primarily for recording OTA HD channels. DirecTV had pitifully little to offer in the way of HD programming back when HDTivos were first introduced. Now I use an HTPC with six ATSC tuners to record all of my OTA HD channels and, guess what? It doesn't cost me a cent!
> 
> You might want to tell them that. They keep trying to sell themselves as being so much more. I guess the internet and DOD stuff is just a figment of my imagination.


First of all it's over-the-air, not free. You need equipment to receive it. And guess what, it costs money to make the equipment. Expecting a SATELLITE service to provide you with equipment to receive signals they can charge you for is ridiculous.

And yes, it is a figment of your imagination. Internet service is via SATELLITE and DOD is an extra option(NOT FREE) which can be piped over an existing broadband line. Does nothing to change the fact that their service is essentially all sat based.

And I bet that 6 tuner HD HTPC was free eh?


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

captain_video said:


> Not at all. I have no doubt that I'd have gotten some sort of deal had I decided to stick with DirecTV. I just didn't like the idea of getting stuck in a commitment without knowing if or when the mpeg4 channels would ever be going online. Remember that I made the switch prior to the activation of said channels after several promise dates had already come and gone. I'm only pointing out the inconsistencies in DirecTV's pricing structure when it comes to their latest DVRs (and service in general when it comes right down to it). Why is it that DirecTV has to bribe us with enticements to get us to stay? If the product was as good as they say then there should be no need for a commitment or other ways to keep us locked into their service.


It's becoming clearer why you feel the need to hang around here, calling people sheep, and other personal insulfts. You _are _trying to convince yourself that switching was the right thing for you.

When I left cable they tried to "bribe" me to stay, offering me things that they didn't offer to others. What's your point?



captain_video said:


> I believe I already conceded that point. I've also explained why I don't like having another box cluttering up my A/V rack so why are you asking a redundant question? Apparently you place too much stock on what I think (I certainly don't ).


No, just trying to understand your apparently illogical thought pattern. It comes done to bashing DirecTV makes you feel better about your choice to leave.



captain_video said:


> Why is it people get defensive when you point out the flaws in a system that they believe in so strongly? You're simply too close to the problem to realize it even exists. I'm also not the OP so I didn't start anything. I just offered my opinion and some people seem to be taking it far too seriously.:sure:


Not defensive. You are pointing out what you perceive as flaws. It doesn't make it true. Why do you get defensive when we explain that we are happy with DirecTV? Why do you feel the need to come back here so long after you left DirecTV?



captain_video said:


> No, you don't get it. It's not that DirecTV betrayed me but rather that they totally screwed all of the HDTivo owners that paid huge sums of money to own an HR10-250. Their answer is to give you a "deal" on a new HD DVR that you don't actually own. You obviously never read through all of my posts or you would realize I never said I hated DirecTV. In fact, I've pretty much said the opposite. I just don't like certain restrictions and policies that they impose on their customers. Other than that, I like DirecTV just fine. In fact, I already mentioned that I would no doubt have several HR20's had I stuck with DirecTV. FYI - I have series 3 Tivos and not Tivo HDs so they hold about 30 hours of HD programming in their stock configuration. I have them both upgraded to about 60 HD hours apiece.


You feel slighted that DirecTV left the Tivo platform. You've mentioned it far to many times to backtrack now.

It's becoming obvious your constant bashing of DirecTV is envy.



captain_video said:


> I don't know, you tell me. All I said was that the vision came to mind. OTOH, if the shoe fits. You really seem to be taking this far too personally. I never said anyone made a bad choice by sticking with DirecTV so get over it already. It seems to me you're the one trying to convince yourself that DirecTV is the correct choice.


You toss out personal insults and then try to play innocent saying "Why you taking it so personally?" You can't have it both ways. I'm not the one hanging out in a forum dedicated to a product I no longer own. That would be you, trying to believe your own disinformation. Have you convinced yourself yet?


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Actually DirecTV never promised anything and never missed any dates. They never gave a launch date for MPEG4 HD until *after* the D10 sat was up and operational and then they announced September 2006 (man, almost 2 years ago now!) So I'm unsure what promises they missed. However, there have always been many rumors on the various forums which people take as word from the company and then feel cheated that the "promise" that never was didn't come to pass. One only need to take a look at the Dish forums here and at Satguys to see this in full swing now with the Dish HD launches. Dish hasn't come out and said a word and yet the rumors fly and people feel cheated when they don't come. But Dish never really cheated them because they never promised anything.
> 
> Anyway...that's the past.


Actually, DirecTV had been promising more HD channels for over a year and there were lots of tentative dates being bantered about as to when it was going to happen. Those dates kept getting pushed further and further back so it had the appearance of a lot of empty promises with no firm date as to if or when they'd be fulfilled. Whether or not the promises actually came from DirecTV was irrelevent because everyone took them as gospel.

I was on the cusp of making a decision and I didn't want to get stuck in a commitment with nothing to show for it. DirecTV eventually did come through but I had no way of knowing that it would happen within a reasonable time frame. Like you said, it's in the past. I still don't regret my decision to switch.



> People only have themselves to blame for that really. It was very shortly after the HR10 was released that the whole MPEG4 plan started to emerge. I personally refused to buy an HR10 just because of that. Sure I went 2 more years with no HD DVR but I also never paid $1000 for a box that I knew wasn't going to work with the new channels. Now you can say that most people didn't know but that again is their fault. If I'm going to spend $1000 bucks I'm sure going to do a ton of research into what's up with that product. I know most people don't but again, it's their fault for not being informed.


I wasn't aware of any plans to switch to mpeg4 until well after the HR10-250 had been released. At that time, any plans were just speculation and still on the drawing board. If you wanted a means to record and timeshift HD programming, the HDTivo was the only game in town. I paid around $900 for my first HDTivo and at the time felt it was money well spent, even if it was a bit extravagant. In retrospect, DirecTV had us by the shorthairs and was making us pay a king's ransom for the ability to timeshift HD. The HDTivo certainly didn't cost them anywhere near $1000 apiece to produce so they were making money hand over fist at our expense. Can anyone say "extortion?"

The fact is, if you wanted to record DirecTV HD, there were simply no other options available. It was simply a matter of supply and demand. Even at $1000 a pop, HDTivos were flying off the shelves and retailers like Best Buy and Circuit City couldn't keep them on the shelves. If they were selling that well at that price, why would DirecV ever consider lowering it?

I have no regrets for making my purchase and I eventually added several more HDTivos to my stable. You may have been sitting there all smug thinking what a smart shopper you were by refusing to take the plunge but the rest of us dummies had the ability to record and timeshift our HD programs instead of being locked into watching everything in real time. What the heck were we thinking?:eek2:

I am upset by the fact that DirecTV dumped Tivos in the first place since it was clearly a better DVR than the R15 (and still is, IMHO). I understand the rationale for switching to mpeg4 and I support DirecTV's decision to do so. I'm just sorry that the HDTivo fell victim to the newer technology.

The original topic dealt with people rejoicing that they could now dump their HDTivos in favor of the newer DirecTV DVRs. When the HR20 was first introduced, the same people were singing a completely different tune becauase the original software releases were extremely buggy and the ATSC tuners were not enabled. The HDTivo was clearly a superior DVR at that time and everyone sang its praises.

When DirecTV dumped Tivo I'd bet the same HR20 fanboys were booing DirecTV for their decision. My whole argument stems from the fact that they now favor the HR20/HR21 because they never knew how to fully appreciate what they had in their Tivos. All they saw was a box that could timeshift their favorite shows whereas the rest of us saw a whole lot of other possibilities. The HR20 and HR21 are no doubt fine DVRs in their current iteration. It's just that the DTivos and HDTivos had the ability to do so much more with a little tweaking. Those of us that enjoyed tweaking a Tivo will miss it. Obviously, YMMV. Peace.

man_rob - It's quite obvious that you're reading something into my posts other than what I intended. I can't help it if your perception is a bit skewed to suit your own personal warped beliefs. I think you need to take a step back and chill, man.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

captain_video said:


> man_rob - It's quite obvious that you're reading something into my posts other than what I intended. I can't help it if your perception is a bit skewed to suit your own personal warped beliefs. I think somebody needs a nap.


Not at all. It's quite obvious. You're here in this forum, long after leaving DirecTV, with no real input other than personal insults and misinformation. TiVo is gone. Let go of DirecTV. Your green eyes are glowing. You hanging out here, trying to console yourself by attacking DirecTV, and their customers is just sad.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

captain_video said:


> Wow, pay extra for a free service! What an amazing concept! DirecTV also charges you an extra $10 per month for the privilege of recording free TV.


If you are going to post false info, at least go big and add all of the charges. You could have said $16 a month (HD access plus DVR service), or better yet, $46+ (family pack, plus HD access, plus DVR service). BTW, doesn't TIVO charge a monthly fee for the privilege of using their HD-DVR to record free TV?


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## Mazakman (Feb 19, 2008)

So I was at Costco the other day speaking with the Directv guy selling new service. 
HE told me that his upper ups told him that they were telling him that they were in talks with Tivo to start up service with them again. Don't get me wrong I have the feeling that he doesn't have a clue. Be interesting none the less


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Mazakman said:


> I have the feeling that he doesn't have a clue.


And neither does his boss. The guy managing some schmuck at Costco isn't going to have any insight into major business deals DirecTV is considering. You'd hear about it here before either of those guys would know about it.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Jeremy W said:


> And neither does his boss. The guy managing some schmuck at Costco isn't going to have any insight into major business deals DirecTV is considering. You'd hear about it here before either of those guys would know about it.


So with all these issues, how come they haven't pulled out the Replay software?


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

> Originally Posted by captain_video
> HDTivos can still record HD content, just not the new ones broadcast by DirecTV. You bring up a good point regarding the $10 HD access fee. I'll be curious to know if DirecTV still requires HDTivo owners to pay this fee now that they no longer have access to DirecTV's HD programs. I mean, how can you pay an HD access fee when you no longer have access? I wouldn't be at all surprised if they respond by saying that you have access to OTA HD channels so that justifies the fee, even though DirecTV doesn't pay for the OTA content. I can see how they'd use that as a ploy to get HDTivo owners to switch to the HR20/21 models, even if it is underhanded.





Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes they do... the same $9.99
> 
> They still have access to 5 + 2 + 2 channels
> ESPN
> ...





> Originally Posted by captain_video
> Wow, pay extra for a free service! What an amazing concept! DirecTV also charges you an extra $10 per month for the privilege of recording free TV.





TigersFanJJ said:


> If you are going to post false info, at least go big and add all of the charges. You could have said $16 a month (HD access plus DVR service), or better yet, $46+ (family pack, plus HD access, plus DVR service). BTW, doesn't TIVO charge a monthly fee for the privilege of using their HD-DVR to record free TV?


So you're saying that Earl is posting false information? If you're going to accuse someone then at least get your facts straight before doing so. DirecTV charges you the HD access fee in order to use the ATSC tuners, or did I miss something here? If you have a receiver or DVR capable of receiving HD content of any kind, DirecTV charges you a monthly fee of $9.99. If all you want to do is record free HD locals using the ATSC tuners then you're getting charged for free TV. DirecTV pays nothing for OTA programming, but they do provide guide information so you can view and record it. I don't believe DirecTV actually pays for the guide info but I believe they do have to repackage it for use on their receivers so there is probably some expense involved in providing the data to their customers.

There used to be a time when you could activate a HDTivo and use it for viewing and recording OTA HD locals without paying the $9.99 fee. I know this to be true because I dropped the HD package for a good while because there wasn't anything I wanted to watch on the paltry few HD channels included in the package. I primarily used my HDTivos for recording HD locals and HBO HD (included with the HBO sub) and I never had to pay for this service. DirecTV realized that a lot of HDTivo owners were doing this so they decided to charge anyone with a HD-capable receive a $9.99 premium for the privilege of ownership (or in more recent developments, leasing HD hardware), whether you used it to receive HD programming or not.

FYI - Tivo charges you for the privilege of using the DVR features and getting a steady stream of guide data. The $5.99 DVR fee you pay to DirecTV covers the same costs. The DVR fee that DirecTV charges is definitely a better bargain than getting the service directly from Tivo but when you compare the Tivo fee to what Verizon charges for their DVR, the Tivo fee doesn't look so bad and is actually a better deal.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

captain_video said:


> So you're saying that Earl is posting false information? DirecTV charges you the HD access fee in order to use the ATSC tuners, or did I miss something here?


On the HR2* platform... Yes... the ATSC features are tied to the HD Access.
On the HR10-250... I do not believe that is the case.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> HR20- $299
> HR21 *with* OTA addon - $259
> 
> So tell me then, how is the subscriber getting screwed here?


Perhaps they're getting screwed because the AM21 still isn't generally available?

Manufacturing efficiencies are what DIRECTV claimed would decrease the cost, but as it turned out, the cost reductions came from something akin to making headlights on your car an extra-cost option.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

harsh said:


> Perhaps they're getting screwed because the AM21 still isn't generally available?
> 
> Manufacturing efficiencies are what DIRECTV claimed would decrease the cost, but as it turned out, the cost reductions came from something akin to making headlights on your car an extra-cost option.


A more accurate car analogy would be:

SAT Radio Standard in all cars.
SAT FM/AM Radio available as an add-on option for cost.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

captain_video said:


> So you're saying that Earl is posting false information?


Never said that. Read Earl's post that you quoted. It explains exactly what you get for the $9.99 fee. That fee is for HD access. If you want to use Directv's HD or HD-DVR receivers to view an HD channel you have to subscribe to the HD access at a minimum. I don't see what the problem is.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I don't believe DirecTV actually pays for the guide info


What, you think TMS is some kind of charity that just gives their product away? :nono2:


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> What, you think TMS is some kind of charity that just gives their product away? :nono2:


I don't honestly know. I just know that I get free unlimited guide data with the BeyondTV PVR software I use on my HTPC and DirecTV has access to the same data. In fact, all PVR applications provide free guide data for locals with absolutely no fees of any kind. Since DirecTV is retransmitting the data for commercial purposes I suspect there are probably fees involved.



TigersFanJJ said:


> Never said that. Read Earl's post that you quoted. It explains exactly what you get for the $9.99 fee. That fee is for HD access. If you want to use Directv's HD or HD-DVR receivers to view an HD channel you have to subscribe to the HD access at a minimum. I don't see what the problem is.


The problem, as I see it, is that you shouldn't have to pay an access fee for programming that is freely available to anyone with an HD receiver. You can use an HDTivo to watch any HD local without paying the access fee or even having a DirecTV subscription but you not only have to pay a DVR fee but you also have to pay an HD access fee just to record the same free programming which DirecTV is not paying for. Am I the only one that thinks this is a bit off? I can certainly understand the fee for accessing DirecTV's HD programming but not the OTA stuff. Call me crazy, but the way I see it, you essentially have to pay a $16 DVR fee if you want to record free local OTA HD content. We obviously don't see eye to eye on this topic so what say we just agree to disagree, OK?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

captain_video said:


> I don't honestly know. I just know that I get free unlimited guide data with the BeyondTV PVR software I use on my HTPC and DirecTV has access to the same data. In fact, all PVR applications provide free guide data for locals with absolutely no fees of any kind. Since DirecTV is retransmitting the data for commercial purposes I suspect there are probably fees involved.


TMS to DirecTV is not free. It actually is a LOT of money.

TMS for usage with BeyondTV is probably free... as BeyondTV is not a "for-profit" project....

http://www.tms.tribune.com/


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

captain_video said:


> you shouldn't have to pay an access fee for programming that is freely available to anyone with an HD receiver.


Then don't use DirecTV's HD receiver. It's just that simple. It's not like DirecTV installs a jammer in your house that blocks all OTA programming unless you pay them. If you want to use their receiver to access OTA programming, they require that you pay $9.99/month. Period.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

captain_video,

You don't get it. 

You are bashing Directv because it doesn't operate the way YOU want it to. They are leasing their products just like Car dealers lease their cars, with up front monies and commitments. You don't like this so you think their leasing practices are bad. They are not. They just aren't what you want. That does not mean anyones doing anything wrong.

You have called the HR2x's inferior multiple times for several reasons. None of your reasons are valid reasons to call something bad. (you used the word bad) If you had chosen to simply harp on problems that people are reporting, fine, then that would be ok, but your not. Your bashing directv for putting out a product YOU feel is inferior because of how it is supposed to operate according to you, not how it is designed to operate. And don't bother calling its design inferior either. Again, that is your opinion. Say it as such and your post will be respected. Attack it as fact, and you will be refuted time and again. And you don't even have that right....

They don't charge more for OTA on an HR2x's than they did on the HR10... You can't get an HR2x without subscribing to Sateliite HD programing... There for the OTA is free. You don't/won't pay a different price on an HR21 whether you have an AM21 or not.... I use OTA on some of my HR20, but not all. There is no pricing difference between them.

You have a nice system, and I won't respond to your earlier comments about separates. You actually proved my point, but you don't see it and never will. You still have separates....

And saying that Directv screwed people over because they came out with MPEG-4 and that forces people to change to an HR2? Give me a break. Do you think they screwed people over when they came out with the DTC-100, and then showed up 3 years later with an HIRD-E86 with an integrated guide? How about having anything thats not HD MPEG-4 capable now? Aren't they screwing over all their SD susbs right now? Buying a first generation unit at $1000.00 in electronics, and then having a new service come out 4 years later that it isn't compatible with? NOT screwing anyone over... Thats just the way technology works. Tell me, do you think every computer manufacturer screws over every customer every time they come out with a new machine that can do more? Should all the TV manufactures have replaced all their first generation HD TV's that were built in 4X3 aspect ratio. How about anyone that is selling 1080i or 720p sets that won't display a true native 1080P source from HDMI? Are all them screwing customers over because at some point all DVD players will likely output that resolution?

And please, if you take all the rumors as to when Directv was supposed to add HD as gospel, then you aren't really someone who understands all this stuff because you've been around for a few years... because obviously you didn't learn anything. Show me the press releases that prove Directv was late by years, and I'll say your right.. Say that they were late because of all the gossip that others were taking as gospel? get real.... 

Stop trying to be passive aggressive. Admit that you are unhappy with Directv because you don't like how they do business and what they have designed. But don't say that people can't handle you pointing out the problems with Directv. You have yet to point them out. I'm not saying there aren't problems. Yes there are, its just you haven't been using them to bolster your posts. Your using your opinions and calling them facts, and that's why people are on you.....


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

OK, let's clear this up once and for all. I like DirecTV as a service provider. I just don't agree with some of their policies, which is why some of you think I'm bashing DirecTV. I'll bet if I said anything negative about George Bush you'd be jumping all over me for bashing him, too. I love this country but I'm betting a lot of you don't agree with the government's policies. If I don't like something I'm going to speak up about it since that's my right to do so. You also have the right to disagree with me, so knock yourselves out. I applaud you for having your own opinion, as I do mine.

I have yet to find the perfect provider for my TV viewing so I could just as easily find things wrong with other providers as well. I've also said time and time again that anything I'm posting is nothing more than my opinion, but it's based on over 10 years of being a DirecTV subscriber so whatever I inject into the conversation is based on personal experience and my understanding of the situation. You don't even want to get me started on Comcast (I've also had them for various services for about 20 years). Verizon definitely has their issues as well but I feel the product they offer is better than anything I've had in the past. I have yet to see a post where anyone that switched to FIOS didn't love it or that they dumped it in favor of DirecTV. I read more posts about subscribers dumping DirecTV to switch to FIOS, so apparently I'm not alone.

I have nothing against the HR20/HR21 DVRs. I've never used either one of them so I don't have a leg to stand on by saying anything negative about the way they perform. If anything, I've said they sound like decent DVRs based on all of the reports I've read and that I would probably own several if I were still with DirecTV. My main problem with the HR21 is the lack of integrated ATSC tuners, which I saw as an oversight in the design. That, and the inability to modify them in any way other than adding a larger hard drive makes them less desirable to me than a Tivo (this is my attempt to get back to the original topic, if you hadn't noticed ). Obviously, DirecTV must have had more than a few complaints about them because they scrambled to come up with an outboard tuner to keep their HR21 customers happy. I'd be surprised if they actually planned the setup from the start because adding the ATSC tuners would only add a few bucks to the cost of the DVR. Leaving the tuners out of the initial design and creating a separate add-on module just doesn't make any sense to me, either from a design or a marketing strategy, then again, I'm not a Wall Steet analyst. All previous generations of DirecTV HD receivers and DVRs had OTA reception capability, IIRC (except for perhaps the earliest designs introduced before local stations started broadcasting ATSC channels), so leaving the ATSC tuners out of the HR21 was a major faux pas for DirecTV. Had they never included them then no one would be complaining.

I'm still trying to sort out your comments about separates because you know absolutely nothing about me or my likes or dislikes other than what I tell you, yet you come across as if you know all about me. I've been using separates since you were probably still in diapers, but since I don't know how old you are I'm only making a wild guess. Separates are fine for high end audio gear and professional studios, but they're not always the best solution in a home theater. If you are using a professional TV monitor then you'd need outboard tuners for TV reception. A tuner is an integral part of any DVR or VCR. Leaving them out of the design is simply a poor design, unless the transport is designed strictly for use with a video camera or other capture device. I don't understand your incessant need to defend it as anything else, unless you happen to work for DirecTV. Even the high end audio industry is embracing integrated components, simply because it makes for a better design and is eminently more practical to use. 

I can't point to any specific press releases regarding the implementation date for the new HD channel lineups because there probably aren't any. Everyone knew that DirecTV was putting new satellites into orbit for the purpose of adding new HD channels in mpeg4. This wasn't exactly a guarded secret. In fact, most of the information on this topic was posted in this forum by Earl and others in the know so I'd like to think I was getting information from a reliable source. The problem was, nobody knew when they would actually go online. If I had the time I'm sure I could find lots of incidents where DirecTV had said something was going to happen by a certain date but it ended up getting pushed out to a later date (updates to the HR20 to enable the ATSC tuners come to mind). 

I believe there were all sorts of technical difficulties involved with getting the new sats launched, which pushed out the date when they'd be going online. I was at a fork in the road and had to make a decision as to which provider I was going to be with for my HD programming. At the time, DirecTV was talking the talk but not walking the walk and they weren't telling anyone when to expect the new channels. FIOS had a product ready to go that was far superior than the picture quality offered by DirecTV at that time so I jumped on it. Had you been in my shoes, you would probably have made the same choice.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

Captain Video -- absolutely on target with the majority of your comments, and I value your opinion, although, personally, I have to differ with one aspect, and that's the "lack" of ATSC tuner on the HR21.

I've never had a cable box from Comcast that allowed me to connect an antenna for OTA broadcasts for the numerous times that Comcast failed to provide service... which at our house was several times a week. I was locked into the tuner that was inside the SA5300 HD unit that I had from them (and from Adelphia before them).

In my market, with the exception of PBS, I get virtually all my broadcast channels in HD. I suspect that many markets have the same situation, and in that case for the majority of the users, having OTA is not something that's needed for them, just as it's not needed for cable viewing. If OTA was important to them (as it was to me during my cable viewing days) I put up an antenna and connected it directly to the TV.

The AM21 is an answer, again, in my opinion, to two or three possible issues.

1) Local Channels are not available in a market and OTA is required to receive them. In this case, I suspect DirecTV may know about it and may offer the HR20 with the tuner to these customers, although I have no facts to back up that supposition.

2) A customer lives in an area (as I do) that straddles two television markets. DirecTV can only provide Locals for a single market, and if the customer wants to view those channels from the alternate TV market, then an ATSC Tuner is needed.

3) There's something blocking the signal from the sattelite that a customer needs for his or her locals. OTA would allow those signals to come through to the DirecTV box and allow the customer to record over OTA.​
Maybe there are some other reasons for OTA that are valid. But in the majority of the cases, I suspect that the local LiLs from D* solve the problem using the tuner that is part of the HR21 series, that tuner to receive DirecTV programming, just as the cable box tuner receives that cable signal with no OTA.

Even if it's only a few dollars to include the ATSC tuner, when you look at that over the number of units that are being produced, that's a substantial chunk of money. In addition, when the HR21's rolled out (without the ATSC tuners) DirecTV dropped the lease price of the HR series to $199 from $299... which, in my opinion, is a result of not having the ATSC tuners included. I think that was a smart move.

Now, should the instance where OTA is necessary occur, should DirecTV provide that option at no additional cost? I suspect that they should, but given the fact that they dropped the initial lease cost by $100, and are expected to be charging about $60 for the AM21, those that need OTA still come out ahead by about $40 in initial lease cost.

I'd rather pay $100 less for a tuner that has everything I need, than pay $100 more for something that only some people need. Again, my opinion.

So, while I respect your opinions, and agree that the option should be there, I think that it makes business sense to do what they're doing, and have saved both DirecTV and their customers (via the reduced lease fee) substantial amounts of money.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I can't really argue with what you're saying, Marty. I agree that the lack of ATSC tuners in the HR21 only affects a small percentage of DirecTV subscribers. I'm actually amazed that so many people don't have access to OTA HD programming except in extreme rural areas. However, I'm one of those people that it does affect, or at least it would if I was still a DirecTV subscriber. I'm mainly acting as a Devil's advocate on the subject since it no longer affects me directly. The lack of ATSC tuners in the HR21 is just another reason why I would not consider going back to DirecTV at this time. 

I've never seen any cable provider that had a box capable of receiving OTA broadcasts. That would be sort of redundant since they should be providing your locals in HD as part of your service. Loss of service with cable providers is a fact of life and one where DirecTV has a slight edge. I say slight because severe weather can also cause you to lose DirecTV reception, and I lost it on more than a few occasions. In the 14 months I've had FIOS I've never experienced any sort of outage. 

DirecTV only provides a fraction of available locals via their satellite service so subscribing to them for local HD programming when you have OTA reception results in lesser service. Allowing your customers OTA reception in their boxes keeps them happy and lets them receive all locals until such time as DirecTV adds them to their lineup. If DirecTV provided all of my locals in HD then I wouldn't be complaining about the lack of ATSC tuners as it would be a moot point because I'd have no need for OTA reception. I have access to two different markets in my area (Baltimore and Washington, D.C.) and receive OTA HD channels from all of the network affiliates in both markets (14 HD channels total). DirecTV cannot provide this due to agreements with the local affiliates that cover my zip code. If I wanted just the Washington locals via DirecTV I'd be SOL since they can't provide them to me since my zip code says I belong to the Baltimore market. This is not DirecTV's fault but rather a restriction imposed upon them. I've always felt they should be able to provide multiple markets to anyone that can receive them with an OTA antenna or via their local cable provider. Right now, DirecTV can't even provide all of the network affiliates in the Baltimore market. FIOS gives me 12 HD local channels.

Before anyone goes off on the topic of the external tuner again, let's suffice it to say that after years of having a ridiculous number of separate components, it's nice to finally get rid of all the clutter. I had to build a custom A/V center to house all of that stuff but now I'm down to a single equipment rack and I like it much better (and so does the wife). If I ever did decide to go back for whatever reason, they'd have to provide me with multiple HR20 DVRs. The keyword here is "multiple", meaning I'd end up with several extra outboard tuner boxes and not just one with the HR21's. That's the part that certain posters aren't getting. A single DVR would not suit my needs or even come close to satisfying my viewing habits. I just don't need the extra clutter. 

I used to be a diehard enthusiast until I found that adhering to the KISS principle was usually the smarter move. Having external tuners is not the simple solution, at least not for me. The design was made to suit DirecTV's interests and not the customers, plain and simple. Nothing says I have to agree with it or even like it, let alone subscribe to it, and all of the retorts on the topic aren't going to change that. I got mad as hell and decided not to take it anymore!:nono2:


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

So, like I somewhat said before... we agree to disagree... and value each other's opinions. Which is something I wish more people would do out here!

Thanks for a good dialog!


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

captain_video said:


> The design was made to suit DirecTV's interests and not the customers, plain and simple.


I think it is a stretch to say that DirecTV did not meet the needs of their customer base because they did not meet your needs. The average customer does not have multiple DVRs. The readers here do, but we are a very specific minority among those paying for service. The principle complaint over the last few years has been the upfront cost on DVR service. DirecTV addressed that concern by giving users the option of not paying as much for equipment they did not need.

I will argue that the HR21 should not have been on the market prior to the AM21. I will blame DirecTV for not having a clear way to request an HR20 versus an HR21. But I cannot make a claim that the HR21 missed the goals of the majority of their DVR base.

And no, I am not in an HD LIL market. Yes, I need the tuners. But I do not want to force every other subscriber to pay an additional cost because I am in market 106 (or somewhere around there).


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

gregjones said:


> I think it is a stretch to say that DirecTV did not meet the needs of their customer base because they did not meet your needs. The average customer does not have multiple DVRs. The readers here do, but we are a very specific minority among those paying for service. The principle complaint over the last few years has been the upfront cost on DVR service. DirecTV addressed that concern by giving users the option of not paying as much for equipment they did not need.
> 
> I will argue that the HR21 should not have been on the market prior to the AM21. I will blame DirecTV for not having a clear way to request an HR20 versus an HR21. But I cannot make a claim that the HR21 missed the goals of the majority of their DVR base.
> 
> And no, I am not in an HD LIL market. Yes, I need the tuners. But I do not want to force every other subscriber to pay an additional cost because I am in market 106 (or somewhere around there).


I'd say that the average customer doesn't want to be bothered with OTA, second antennas, running extra wiring, etc.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I have to laugh because I just looked through the latest threads at the Tivo Community Forum. I'll bet that for every post in this thread where the poster says they're glad to be rid of Tivo you'll find at least a dozen posts at the TCF why people dumped DirecTV in favor of Comcast just so they could keep their Tivos. I mean, I like my Tivos but you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming to sign up with Comcast for anything. One of the reasons I signed up with Verizon was to finally sever ties with Comcast and get a better internet service at a lower price. That's taking brand loyalty to another extreme entirely.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

captain_video said:


> I'm actually amazed that so many people don't have access to OTA HD programming except in extreme rural areas.


Well, it's not that people don't have access to OTA HD programming. It's that most people don't *want* an antenna or don't understand why they would get an antenna that their parents used. "Isn't that what cable is for?" is the thing I hear most when they find out I have an antenna. Even though all the networks are in HD and easily available via an antenna around here, you don't see hardly any antennas at all. I'm the only one on my block with one other then the 90+ year old lady down the street that doesn't have cable.



> I've never seen any cable provider that had a box capable of receiving OTA broadcasts. That would be sort of redundant since they should be providing your locals in HD as part of your service.


They all don't. Cable around here just started providing HD locals only a year or two ago. Before that it was OTA or bust. And not all of the big 4 were available on cable until just about 6 months ago. DirecTV actually had more then cable for a while. There are a couple cable systems around here (Comcast and Time Warner) that *just* went digital. They don't have any HD yet and have no immediate plans to get HD. Needless to say DirecTV and Dish is used pretty heavy in those areas. It really just depends on the market and blanket statements can't be made. Comcast can be awesome in one town and go 2 miles down the road and Comcast there is terrible.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

captain_video said:


> I have to laugh because I just looked through the latest threads at the Tivo Community Forum. I'll bet that for every post in this thread where the poster says they're glad to be rid of Tivo you'll find at least a dozen posts at the TCF why people dumped DirecTV in favor of Comcast just so they could keep their Tivos. I mean, I like my Tivos but you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming to sign up with Comcast for anything. One of the reasons I signed up with Verizon was to finally sever ties with Comcast and get a better internet service at a lower price. That's taking brand loyalty to another extreme entirely.


If FIOS was available to me anytime in the next decade I'd be seriously looking into it. Unfortunately I'm in AT&T land.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

captain_video said:


> I have to laugh because I just looked through the latest threads at the Tivo Community Forum. I'll bet that for every post in this thread where the poster says they're glad to be rid of Tivo you'll find at least a dozen posts at the TCF why people dumped DirecTV in favor of Comcast just so they could keep their Tivos. I mean, I like my Tivos but you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming to sign up with Comcast for anything. One of the reasons I signed up with Verizon was to finally sever ties with Comcast and get a better internet service at a lower price. That's taking brand loyalty to another extreme entirely.


DirecTV seems to being doing just fine without them.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I'll bet that for every post in this thread where the poster says they're glad to be rid of Tivo you'll find at least a dozen posts at the TCF why people dumped DirecTV in favor of Comcast just so they could keep their Tivos.


TCF might as well be renamed TZF, Tivo Zealot Forum. Of course you're going to read those stories over there, they're all zealots. People generally don't come over here to talk about how they've dumped Tivo, because it just doesn't matter to them. The only time I really ever see it is when threads like this are created, and then you'll get a bunch of people (myself included) chiming in about how they've also gotten Tivo's crappy stuff out of their lives.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> TCF might as well be renamed TZF, Tivo Zealot Forum. Of course you're going to read those stories over there, they're all zealots. People generally don't come over here to talk about how they've dumped Tivo, because it just doesn't matter to them. The only time I really ever see it is when threads like this are created, and then you'll get a bunch of people (myself included) chiming in about how they've also gotten Tivo's crappy stuff out of their lives.


JEremy... I still have 3 TiVo's... and they're all connected. I still like the interface, and I especially like my TiVo Series 3 HD DVR for OTA and basic cable... works like a charm when I do get rain fade, or I need more recording capacity. I use it between 20-25% of the time.

So, you won't see me bashing D*... you won't see me bashing TiVo... each has their strengths and weaknesses, and I use them both accordingly. I'll only bash Comcast, since they're so arrogant and inconsistent from market to market.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> TCF might as well be renamed TZF, Tivo Zealot Forum. Of course you're going to read those stories over there, they're all zealots. People generally don't come over here to talk about how they've dumped Tivo, because it just doesn't matter to them. The only time I really ever see it is when threads like this are created, and then you'll get a bunch of people (myself included) chiming in about how they've also gotten Tivo's crappy stuff out of their lives.


Isn't that a bit of the pot calling the kettle black? I mean, this is a DirecTV forum so by those standards that makes you all DirecTV zealots, which certainly explains most of the responses to my posts. Let's face it, people join forums because they discuss topics that are of interest to them. The TCF is going to have a lot of Tivo fanboys just like this one has a lot of DirecTV fanatics. I personally belong to dozens of forums because I have a lot of varying interests. I also like to get different points of view and would sometimes rather hear the criticisms rather than the repeated posts of "our provider is best and you better not say bad things about it." Going through life with an open mind can be a wonderful thing. You might actually learn something new along the way.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

captain_video said:


> Isn't that a bit of the pot calling the kettle black?


I would say that this forum attracts much more of a variety of people, from the fanboys to the haters. TCF is 95% fanboys, since the mere mention of an HR20 gets you shouted off the site.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> I would say that this forum attracts much more of a variety of people, from the fanboys to the haters. TCF is 95% fanboys, since the mere mention of an HR20 gets you shouted off the site.


Not really, your quoted ratio of "fanboys" on TCF is much too high. I see little difference in the amount of undying apologists and "haters" on this site as I do on TCF. About 10% of the posters fit in either camp on both sites.

The "fanboys" and "haters" are always easy to spot and I devalue their opinion accordingly when looking for objective discussion.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> I would say that this forum attracts much more of a variety of people, from the fanboys to the haters. TCF is 95% fanboys, since the mere mention of an HR20 gets you shouted off the site.


Considering that the TCF is a Tivo forum, what would you expect? Dbstalk is the primary discussion forum for anything related to the DirecTV DVRs, with dealdatabase perhaps being the only other forum that immediately comes to mind. I haven't checked lately but I suspect the AVS Forums has a section that discusses the HR20/HR21 models. The TCF is an offshoot of the AVS Forums and was split out due to the huge amount of traffic regarding Tivo discussions. The owner of both forums, David Bott, recently sold his interests in the TCF to another concern so it's now under new management.

I don't actually frequent the TCF all that often, mainly because the discussions tend to be a bit mundane and the same topics keep getting posted over and over again so it gets painfully redundant. There is some good info there but you have to wade through too much detritus to find it. The Tivo forums at dealdatabase is the premiere Tivo forum on the web and is more open to various topics of discussion whereas the TCF actually censors certain things. Try posting the name dealdatabase or a link to a thread at the DDB forum and see what actually gets posted. You'll just get a series of asterisks in place of whatever you typed. You can't even send a PM without it getting censored. It's just way too close-minded for my tastes.

This forum has a wider variety of topics than the TCF does so it stands to reason you'll attract a crowd with varying tastes. OTOH, the membership at the TCF outnumbers the total membership here by almost 3 to 1.


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