# L216 is spooling



## leemathre

Both of my 921's are getting new software right now.


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## Eagles

leemathre said:


> Both of my 921's are getting new software right now.


Ditto Here! Maybe a Non-DMA OTA EPG. We'll see.


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## elmc

i am also downloading


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## leemathre

Haven't checked very much so far, but it did not fix the problem with the DVR preview window after erasing a recording. Still get just the upper right corner of the screen in the preview window. Very disappointing upgrade already.


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## gunawo

Good News, got the guide data back on locals. Also I noticed that the locals signal strength has increased about 10 points on each channel.


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## jal

I have L2.16 I don't notice any difference. Anyone know what this download was supposed to accomplish?


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## cleblanc

Yes this release was just to fix the OTA guide data problem that was broken in 215 and I'm happy to report my local guide data is back. I'm just curious if the people who started receiving it without subscribing to the satellite locals has lost it or if Dish has removed the requirement of having to subscribe permanently. If so, will they follow suit with the 942 receiver?


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## Eagles

> SLIMJIM said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also I noticed that the locals signal strength has increased about 10 points on each channel.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope 216 has this effect on the OTA tuner sensativity. I kind of doubt it though. Your probably expieriencing favorable reception conditions. Give it a couple of days and make comparisons to your normal viewing times prior to L216.
Click to expand...


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## TonyB

Well, I few minutes ago I was watching TV (channel 205) and checking out this forum and saw that 216 was available.

I did a power card reboot to force the download (checked that it had not occured overnight even though the receiver was in standby mode), and down it loaded. 

After download:
1. Lost guide data for the digital subchannel locals (I do not subscribe to dish locals anymore) eg 005-1 etc. I had guide data for these channels with 215, cannot say for earlier versions of the s/w because I had subscribed to lil's. I had no guide data for the analog locals with 215 and still do not.

2. I could no longer receive ANY channel - said I had lost satellite signal lock. I did a switch check and it and said that one of my 2 SW21 switches was not present - I had lost a switch. They were working fine up to the download of 216!

No I get NOTHING, NADA - every satellit channel says satellite not locked.

So, I then check 005, then 102 and lo and behold I get 102 OK, then 103 etc. I jumped to 205 and its coming in just fine. When trying 9420 etc I am back to no satellite signal message, so check the switch. It says that the receiver will not work in this configuration - BUT IT WAS until I jumped to 9420! 

I cannot belive that the switch decided to go at EXACTLY the time of 216 download - one of the switches has been working fine since Jan 1997 and the other for at least 2 years.

I have now started a hard drive test - its started at countdown from 249, and is currently stuck at 242 for the last 5 minutes - anybody tell me what to expect with this?

So far - for me, 216 has been nothing but trouble.


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## TonyB

Update - Now I can watch 205 again as well as other low channel number satellite channels. So either the 921 does work with one satellite feed or the second one has started to work. However, the last time I did a switch check it said that I only have one working SW21. The receiver appears to have started working with only one checked out SW21.

So why did I lose program data for local digital sub channels eg 005-1, 004-1 (Boston) etc?


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## lenny

SLIMJIM said:


> Good News, got the guide data back on locals. Also I noticed that the locals signal strength has increased about 10 points on each channel.


Still did not get some of the local guide data back after this upgrade in the Buffalo, New York area. But, those local channels have not had guide data since L212. :-(

Lenny


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## TonyB

Another update:
I cannot get any local digital off air sub channels.

I did a menu 6,8, and scanned for local digital channles. It found locals 2-1, 4-1, 5-1 etc. Problem is that they do NOT then show up in the program guide. 

Anybody else see this? Is it a new bug?

(remember that currently the 921 tells me I have a bad SW21 but after a few minutes still lets me see channels 101, 102 ... 205 etc just fine, just when I try 9420 do I get a no satellit feed message).


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## dishbacker

TonyB said:


> Another update:
> I cannot get any local digital off air sub channels.
> 
> I did a menu 6,8, and scanned for local digital channles. It found locals 2-1, 4-1, 5-1 etc. Problem is that they do NOT then show up in the program guide.
> 
> Anybody else see this? Is it a new bug?
> 
> (remember that currently the 921 tells me I have a bad SW21 but after a few minutes still lets me see channels 101, 102 ... 205 etc just fine, just when I try 9420 do I get a no satellit feed message).


You might check this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=44170&page=9&pp=25

Seems that there was a 110 outage last night / this morning.


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## fkasten

I just unplugged my 921 and forced a download of 216. I still don't get the OTA program information for the two stations I lost after 213 in Louisville, KY.


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## SummitAdvantageRetailer

My locals guide info are exactly the same as before. The locals that I'd get from DISH on 110 get the guide info but the secondary locals on the wings (61.5) don't have guide info on them. Plus, sub channels have never and probably never will get guide info because PSIP is not used to get the guide info on these channels.

When 110 was out for a few hours, I lost ALL guide info on my OTA locals. I wonder when they'll start using PSIP instead of 110 (in my case since that's where majority of the DISH locals are from) to get guide info.


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## lionsrule

UPDATE: Nothing new regarding L216, however....

I just received L218 for my TOASTER, and I'm pissed. Remember how L214 would burn the left side of the bread and not even warm the right side? Well, that bug is back again! The dual function of the double slots is now enabled!! I can now enjoy 4 slices of toast at a time, just the way this POS was advertised to work like in the first place. If they don't fix the left side burning bug, I'm selling mine on ebay and leasing the new platinum toaster for only $400 ( I have an inside person at the executive office.....). I wish they would have a solution for the lack of bagel support, I don't know why they just can't come out with a toaster the will toast both bread and bagels. I'm going to give them one last chance with another software update and if I'm not happy, I'm gone!!!!


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## lapplegate

fkasten said:


> I just unplugged my 921 and forced a download of 216. I still don't get the OTA program information for the two stations I lost after 213 in Louisville, KY.


fkasten,
What are those 2 stations?. On 213, I lost 3, 15 & 68. I haven't got them back with 215 and I am at work so I don't know what 216 has done.

Thanks,
Larry


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## gort

TonyB said:


> Another update:
> I cannot get any local digital off air sub channels.
> I did a menu 6,8, and scanned for local digital channles. It found locals 2-1, 4-1, 5-1 etc. Problem is that they do NOT then show up in the program guide.
> Anybody else see this? Is it a new bug?
> 
> I have the same problem, I tried deleting all the OTA stations, rebooting, and re-scanning them. They show up in the menu but not in the program guide?


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## fkasten

Larry, I lost the OTA program info for 3 and 68 with 213 and still don't have them. I'd be curious to know if you regained them.

Frank


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## lapplegate

fkasten said:


> Larry, I lost the OTA program info for 3 and 68 with 213 and still don't have them. I'd be curious to know if you regained them.
> 
> Frank


fkasten,
Thanks, for the reply.

I'll let you know how it comes out.


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## ayalbaram

does anyone know if the scaling problem that started w/l215 has been fixed in 216?


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## DonLandis

Is this another dumb move on the part of E* or what?

Send a software load right in the middle of 110 going down. They hardly have the time to evaluate the bird repair and now this? 

Would any of you try to do a check switch on your 921 at the same time you knew that a service tech was rewiring your dish? No? That proves you have more common sense. 

Anyway-
Mine says "download interrupted" and I'm still at L215. I have only 61.5 bird sat signals left on the guide as well as all my OTA at this point. 
signal check on 110 is zip to 40 or so and it is intermittent.


Update- I did a check switch and this failed again.
Did a power plug reboot, check switch and all has returned to normal the way it was before 110 went out. 

Now let's see what happens here with the L216 download


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## revenson

I did a soft reboot to get my download...looks like I'll have to wait for guide to repopulate...I have no info on all channels for tommorow and only 2 days of guide.


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## rkh

Got 216 this morning and lost my OTA channels! They are gone from the guide and I can NOT tune them by entering the channel number into the remote. They show on the local channel scan list (I even did a rescan), but they don't appear in the guide list. I still have all of the sub-channels in the guide (004-02, 007-02, etc) and I can get those by entering number's into the remote. Any ideas's --trying now to get through to Dish --15+ minute wait !!

Boot: 150B
Flash : F053
SW L216 HEED-N


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## AVJohnnie

DonLandis said:


> Is this another dumb move on the part of E* or what?
> 
> Send a software load right in the middle of 110 going down. They hardly have the time to evaluate the bird repair and now this?


Hold on a moment&#8230; Let's try some opposite spin on this. Do you suppose that the new Eldon-ware in the data stream nuked the 110 bird? Hmmm - Maybe so&#8230; :lol:


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## TonyB

rkh said:


> Got 216 this morning and lost my OTA channels! They are gone from the guide and I can NOT tune them by entering the channel number into the remote. They show on the local channel scan list (I even did a rescan), but they don't appear in the guide list. I still have all of the sub-channels in the guide (004-02, 007-02, etc) and I can get those by entering number's into the remote. Any ideas's --trying now to get through to Dish --15+ minute wait !!
> 
> Boot: 150B
> Flash : F053
> SW L216 HEED-N


Thats EXACTLY what I see. I wasn't sure if some of my problem had to do with "losing a switch" but your report seems to confirm my findings because it would be too much of a coincidence. If this is indeed true, then it is a MAJOR bug - cannot see local digital channels. By the way, my local stations are Boston - anybody else from Boston seeing this?

Anybody know what they call the dance where you go two steps forward and 2 steps back? I think its an english one.


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## jamullian

I was wondering why my 921 is dead this morning. Any type of power cycling elicits the same result: First there is the firmware logo, then Attention: 680, Receiver is in Standby mode, Booting - and after a couple of minutes it cycles back to the firmware logo, and ...

Looks like time for Fun with Dish Customer Service again


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## rkh

Got through to Dish; the guy I talked to didn't know L216 was spooling.............!

Reported my issues and it's being "sent to the engineers"...............

I got a bad feeling about this.


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## SummitAdvantageRetailer

rkh said:


> Got 216 this morning and lost my OTA channels! They are gone from the guide and I can NOT tune them by entering the channel number into the remote. They show on the local channel scan list (I even did a rescan), but they don't appear in the guide list. I still have all of the sub-channels in the guide (004-02, 007-02, etc) and I can get those by entering number's into the remote. Any ideas's --trying now to get through to Dish --15+ minute wait !!
> 
> Boot: 150B
> Flash : F053
> SW L216 HEED-N


Goodness gracious. Please first check to see that 110 is among your satellites that are detected in the Check Switch screen. That'll help determine some issues right away.


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## SummitAdvantageRetailer

DonLandis said:


> Is this another dumb move on the part of E* or what?
> 
> Send a software load right in the middle of 110 going down. They hardly have the time to evaluate the bird repair and now this?
> 
> Would any of you try to do a check switch on your 921 at the same time you knew that a service tech was rewiring your dish? No? That proves you have more common sense.
> 
> Anyway-
> Mine says "download interrupted" and I'm still at L215. I have only 61.5 bird sat signals left on the guide as well as all my OTA at this point.
> signal check on 110 is zip to 40 or so and it is intermittent.
> 
> Update- I did a check switch and this failed again.
> Did a power plug reboot, check switch and all has returned to normal the way it was before 110 went out.
> 
> Now let's see what happens here with the L216 download


The 110 going down and 216 being spooled are two separate events and 110 going down was not intentional. They probably didn't expect 110 to be down while software was being uplinked. But what's funny is that while they should've delayed this software release to tomorrow they didn't. And when they could've released 215, they delayed it for several weeks. In any case, most of everyone's problem is that the 921 lost the 110 which contains guide info for many of your locals in your DMA's. After power reset and a check switch to get 110 back, your guide info will be back up. I lost mine because of no 110 signal but now all is well (except for some locals on the wings and sub-channels) since 110 came back up.


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## rbyers

Well, thanks to you all, I just checked my system. I now have 216 and all appears fine. I don't seem to have any of the problems you all are reporting. Eldonware seems somewhat strange, since it works differently on identical pieces of hardware with constant initial conditions. A first in software.


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## AVJohnnie

rbyers said:


> Eldonware seems somewhat strange, since it works differently on identical pieces of hardware with constant initial conditions. A first in software.


But they're not as identical as you might think. There are now many, many variations of 921 hardware and firmware in the field and there are many different ways in which they are connected and configured. I think that has become a major part of the problem for the Eldon guys.


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## Mark Lamutt

First, any switch problems you may be having are not related to L216, they are related to 110 going down last night.

I have started 2 data collection threads, stuck at the top of the forum. If you are having problems adding/scanning any OTA channels that you had previous to L216, please respond in the OTA problems thread (even if you have already responded here). If you have OTA channels without guide data, AND YOU SUBSCRIBE TO DISH LOCALS, please respond in the OTA Guide Data problems thread.

You must subscribe to Dish Locals to get digital OTA channel guide data in this version. That was an error that Eldon made in L215, that has been corrected.

In addition to that, L216 fixes the issue where users with local channel numbers outside of the 8000 range did not have OTA guide data. This primarily affected people with their locals on the superdish, but it did hit a few 110 markets as well.


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## TonyB

Mark Lamutt said:


> You must subscribe to Dish Locals to get digital OTA channel guide data in this version. That was an error that Eldon made in L215, that has been corrected.


Isn't it amazing how we waited for MONTHS for a s/w update for bug fixes when we needed something, yet it only takes a couple of weeks for a bug fix when its for E*

Since they provided guide data - they knew how - now they have taken functionality away. There is no excuse this time that its for legal reasons or anything, just so that they can sell you what the stations send out for free. Does this create a legal problem here for E*?


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## bbomar

Mark Lamutt said:


> In addition to that, L216 fixes the issue where users with local channel numbers outside of the 8000 range did not have OTA guide data. This primarily affected people with their locals on the superdish, but it did hit a few 110 markets as well.


It must have been locals in the 7000 range that lost guide data since I had
guide data for 9195-9199 and 9314. From previous posts it seems that
everyone who lost guide data in L215 had channels in the 7000-7999 range.


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## DonLandis

OK- After a reboot with power plug and a new check switch all 119, 110 and 61.5 are back. I also had all my locals and new guide info was present.

Then the power button began to flash indicating I was receiving the L216

L216 is now loaded as verified by the sys info screen.

Later I will test my AR modes for HDTV and SDTV but for now, I'm doing the channel tests on 480i monitor.

Locals- I concur with other's reports here that all my locals except for the -2 subchannels are gone! I've rescanned but no dice. Therefore, I essentially have no locals at all.

How this kind of incompetence prevails time after time is just mind boggling. 


And just to sum it up- L215, for me anyway, was the best attempt they have had to date- L216 is another complete screwup like L211 where we lost clean picture for 3 months. 

If this is not fixed in 24 hours, I will be calling E* this week and requesting a complete refund of my monthly charges until such time as they have it fixed. I suggest you all do the same if you are not completely satisfied with this software version. 

I'm tired of paying very high monthly charges for their fun and games.


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## paulcdavis

rkh said:


> Got 216 this morning and lost my OTA channels! They are gone from the guide and I can NOT tune them by entering the channel number into the remote. They show on the local channel scan list (I even did a rescan), but they don't appear in the guide list. I still have all of the sub-channels in the guide (004-02, 007-02, etc) and I can get those by entering number's into the remote. Any ideas's --trying now to get through to Dish --15+ minute wait !!
> 
> Boot: 150B
> Flash : F053
> SW L216 HEED-N


I had this problem with L215. Channels appeared in the Local channels list but not in the guide. A soft (power button) re-boot fixed this problem on my 921 and put the local Channels list in the guide. I had to re-boot after adding and saving the local channels.


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## ayalbaram

TonyB said:


> Isn't it amazing how we waited for MONTHS for a s/w update for bug fixes when we needed something, yet it only takes a couple of weeks for a bug fix when its for E*
> 
> Since they provided guide data - they knew how - now they have taken functionality away. There is no excuse this time that its for legal reasons or anything, just so that they can sell you what the stations send out for free. Does this create a legal problem here for E*?


Am I to understand that this update does nothing more then take away free guide data? Does it actually fix anything that is broken?


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## bbomar

DonLandis said:


> Locals- I concur with other's reports here that all my locals except for the -2 subchannels are gone! I've rescanned but no dice. Therefore, I essentially have no locals at all.


Don - Can you let us know if a soft reboot gets the channels back? I'm
at work and will try to avoid rebooting my 921 when I get home if it
removes all my OTA local -1 subchannels. Of course, once a thunderstorm
comes through a reboot is likely inevitable.


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## DonLandis

TonyB said:


> Isn't it amazing how we waited for MONTHS for a s/w update for bug fixes when we needed something, yet it only takes a couple of weeks for a bug fix when its for E*
> 
> Since they provided guide data - they knew how - now they have taken functionality away. There is no excuse this time that its for legal reasons or anything, just so that they can sell you what the stations send out for free. Does this create a legal problem here for E*?


I think it does. 
I have been waiting for them to do what Mark has now just admitted that I reported some time ago from my sources to send in an official request that the FCC investigate E*'s violations of the PSIP EIT deadline of Feb 1, 2005 to allow the stations' ATSC signal to display this information. They had 6 months notice to put this in effect, just like any other broadcasters and manufacturers. 
Considering that L214 and L215 was imminent for several months, I decided to hold off doing this until E* proves they are in defiance of the FCC PSIP requirement. I feel L216 and Mark's confirmation now porves their intent. L215 was, IMO, a good show that in place of the required PSIP EIT they would voluntarily supply the TMS service which is permitted under the regulation.


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## Bradtothebone

Did anybody not subbed to LIL's actually TEST this software?


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## ebaltz

Is there any list of anything that has been actually fixed. I never even really saw one for the last update, it appeared that all the major bugs that anyone cared about were still there. For probably 95% of us there wasn't even any guide data issue, so that is no real victory. Is the stuck aspect ratio fixed? 

Is it just me or does the border around the channel banner a little darker and bolder with this release?


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## DonLandis

bbomar-

As part of my install of L216, I did do a soft reboot, then a rescan of the OTA Digital channels. No luck. All my channels except for PBS's 7-2 are gone! And I cannot enter the channel number manually to see it. 

I just checked and our NBC local station engineer told me earlier in the week he was doing some testing of a -2 channel but will put up bars and tone for the rest of the week. That channel is present as 12-2 but their primary channel 12-1 is gone and I can't get to it by entering it manually.


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## TonyB

bbomar said:


> Don - Can you let us know if a soft reboot gets the channels back? I'm
> at work and will try to avoid rebooting my 921 when I get home if it
> removes all my OTA local -1 subchannels. Of course, once a thunderstorm
> comes through a reboot is likely inevitable.


No, I tried that. All the local -1 subchannels are GONE GONE GONE. Now the 921 is no longer an OTA digital receiver. They have now managed to take away all the network HD channels.


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## TonyB

ayalbaram said:


> Am I to understand that this update does nothing more then take away free guide data? Does it actually fix anything that is broken?


Oh NO. It now takes away all your digital locals OTA!!!!!! So taking away guide data for locals now works since if you don't get the digital OTA locals, you have no channels that need guide data. What a solution!!!!!!!!

We obviously are not getting and competant bata testing of code where all the fuctions are tested.


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## langlin

I have 216, fixed OTA problems introduced in 215 and I have those guides back, it DID NOT fix the guide problems introduced by 213, I still don't have those OTA stations guide back. I subscribe to LIL.


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## Guest

I do not subscribe to Dish locals. After 215 I gained a few channels of OTA guide. Now after 216, I have *lost the channels* that I had gained OTA guide data for.

Don, I'm glad you can be calm and cool and express yourself eloquently with the FCC and Dish Network. Add my name along with yours on any correspondence. I'm too frickin' mad to do it... nicely.


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## Mark Lamutt

Did you guys completely ignore the post that I left earlier on this page?

If you post your OTA problems in this thread, they will get lost, and not seen. You need to put them in the correct threads, please.

And Don posted almost 3 weeks ago that he had been told that the free guide data was an error and that it would be taken back. Did you think he was either lying to you, or being lied to?


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## TonyB

gpflepsen said:


> Don, I'm glad you can be calm and cool and express yourself eloquently with the FCC and Dish Network. Add my name along with yours on any correspondence. I'm too frickin' mad to do it... nicely.


Don, Add me to that list also. I am MAD.

What an incompet*** bunch of programmers. How could this ever have been tested adequately and passed the criteria for release is beyond me. Of course for E* they are no longer giving anything away for free so we will probably see the fix for this - I predict - in NOVEMBER!


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## bbomar

Mark Lamutt said:


> And Don posted almost 3 weeks ago that he had been told that the free guide data was an error and that it would be taken back. Did you think he was either lying to you, or being lied to?


Yes - but I don't think they expected to lose the channel as well as the
guide data.


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## TonyB

Mark Lamutt said:


> Did you guys completely ignore the post that I left earlier on this page?
> 
> If you post your OTA problems in this thread, they will get lost, and not seen. You need to put them in the correct threads, please.
> 
> ?


Mark,
I saw the problems at home this morning before going to work. I cannot post the bug reports now because I cannot supply all the data that you ask for. I will post them when I get home tonight.


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## jamullian

jamullian said:


> I was wondering why my 921 is dead this morning. Any type of power cycling elicits the same result: First there is the firmware logo, then Attention: 680, Receiver is in Standby mode, Booting - and after a couple of minutes it cycles back to the firmware logo, and ...
> 
> Looks like time for Fun with Dish Customer Service again


(after 45 minutes on various holds) The Engineering Department will call you within 24-48 hours ...


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## mwsmith2

Mark Lamutt said:


> You must subscribe to Dish Locals to get digital OTA channel guide data in this version. That was an error that Eldon made in L215, that has been corrected.


Fabulous.  The only thing that irritates me more than that is the absolute breakneck speed they exhibited to fix something that enhanced the functionality of the box. Heaven forbid they work as fast on the other problems. Yes, we were warned, but some of us held out hope that E* would let this one slide. I guess not.

*sigh*



Frank Herbert's DUNE said:


> DUKE LETO
> (out loud to himself as he watches
> the men scrambling)
> Damn sloppy -- really damn sloppy.


Michael


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## jergenf

DonLandis said:


> I think it does.
> I have been waiting for them to do what Mark has now just admitted that I reported some time ago from my sources to send in an official request that the FCC investigate E*'s violations of the PSIP EIT deadline of Feb 1, 2005 to allow the stations' ATSC signal to display this information. They had 6 months notice to put this in effect, just like any other broadcasters and manufacturers.
> Considering that L214 and L215 was imminent for several months, I decided to hold off doing this until E* proves they are in defiance of the FCC PSIP requirement. I feel L216 and Mark's confirmation now porves their intent. L215 was, IMO, a good show that in place of the required PSIP EIT they would voluntarily supply the TMS service which is permitted under the regulation.


I totally agree with you that the FCC should get on their case. Echostar's only reason for 216 is to try to collect $60-72 a year for their failure to provide guide data. This newest release apparently doesn't address any of the concerns that customers requested but rather takes away a mistake they made in giving non-subscribers guide data for free. Now I'm hearing that they also are taking the actual digital OTA channels away from people. If removing the actual channel was an accident then they should fix this problem immediately (not days, weeks or months from now) even if it means reinstating 215 back as 217. One of the big selling points for me choosing the 921 was that I would get free OTA and record them using my antenna thus not have to buy a digital STB. So far I'm reluctant to reboot until I get more feedback (especially from the Rochester NY members). The local digital stations are most important to me, not only that they're HD but because I get lousy reception on my analogs. However I know that rebooting is inevitable.


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## Mark Lamutt

Repeating again, for the Page 3 crowd, who obviously didn't read page 2...

L216 fixes the guide data problem for those people with their dish locals not in the 8000 or part of the 9000 channel range. Those users now have their guide data back.

That is NOT nothing, just because it doesn't affect you.


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## Ron Barry

DonLandis said:


> I think it does.
> I have been waiting for them to do what Mark has now just admitted that I reported some time ago from my sources to send in an official request that the FCC investigate E*'s violations of the PSIP EIT deadline of Feb 1, 2005 to allow the stations' ATSC signal to display this information. They had 6 months notice to put this in effect, just like any other broadcasters and manufacturers.
> Considering that L214 and L215 was imminent for several months, I decided to hold off doing this until E* proves they are in defiance of the FCC PSIP requirement. I feel L216 and Mark's confirmation now porves their intent. L215 was, IMO, a good show that in place of the required PSIP EIT they would voluntarily supply the TMS service which is permitted under the regulation.


Don,

I was always under the impression that this deadline was associated to the broadcasting of the PSIP signal not the support of the PSIP signal (Guide information specifically) within the receivers.

Does this FCC rule include the receivers? What I remember is that it did not. Do you have a link where it indicates this. It would be very helpful as a argument.


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## invaliduser88

AVJohnnie said:


> Hold on a moment&#8230; Let's try some opposite spin on this. Do you suppose that the new Eldon-ware in the data stream nuked the 110 bird? Hmmm - Maybe so&#8230; :lol:


Lookout they'll go after 119 next!:grin:


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## jergenf

Mark Lamutt said:


> In addition to that, L216 fixes the issue where users with local channel numbers outside of the 8000 range did not have OTA guide data. This primarily affected people with their locals on the superdish, but it did hit a few 110 markets as well.


I am getting five super stations in the 8000 area but they're not from superdish. Hopefully I'll continue to get them with 216.


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## jergenf

*MARK:* Presently I'm reluctant to implement 216 until I get more feedback.

1) Are the people that have lost their digital OTA stations all non-subscribers?
2) Did they use to have their guide data mapped to the actual local channel slots (not just the 7xxx - 9xxx red area of the guide)? Wondering if that could be the cause of this problem.
3) Are their any plans to allow PSIP guide data for the 921/942 or is dishnetwork blocking this to encourage people to subscribe?
4) What percentage of people are affected with this problem and will they receive free locals until the problem is resolved (assuming that would fix it)?


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## DonLandis

Ron, If you read the address that spells the spirit of the regulation, it states, that if the manufacturers fail to comply with the implementation of PSIP EIT then the FCC wants to know this. The FCC is well aware that if Broadcasters are required to transmit a feature set of the PSIP standard and no manufacturers make consumer receivers available then the whole point is moot. The FCC stated that it will address any manufacturer who willfully fails to implement PSIP EIT after 2-1-2005. So while there would be no fine levied for a violation as in the case of a broadcaster's failure to comply, the voluminous complaints filed by individuals will go a long way to "encourage" E* to do what the FCC wishes. Defiance after the FCC addresses the issue, IMO, won't happen because E* needs FCC approval on many of their applications. Now if all manufactures decide to thumb their nose at the FCC request then the FCC did state that they would be forced to revisit the regulation. The way I read this was that the FCC would write a specific regulation forcing mandatory compliance. To my understanding, that is not in effect now. If you look at history, years ago the FCC made a request for TV set makers include a UHF tuner in all sets. Manufactures complied in part so after ignoring a no regulation, they made it one!

So, in answer to your question, I believe you implied in your tone, no there is no such specific violation of the Broadcaster's code that I can find but there is intent to violate the spirit of the law by preventing a regulated broadcast signal from being received. One of my E* spokespersons suggested that they did not need to comply with this FCC PSIP EIT because the 921 was manufactured before the regulation went into effect. The rebuttal to this is that while the 921 hardware was made prior to the regulation, E* continues to "build" and "rebuild" the 921 as an ongoing process to add features during the grace period and after. E* has already demonstrated it is using PSIP basics to address the channel and call sign data. This rebuild IS taking place after the regulation went into effect.
My claim to the FCC will be that E* was given adequate notice of both phases of the PSIP implementation requirements. They chose to not comply with the second part, the EIT. My belief is that E* hopes to coerce subscribers to pay for a premium guide service by withholding the required PSIP EIT guide from view. 

Let me also remind all of you that the PSIP EIT is nowhere near the quality and quantity of guide data that is supplied from TMS that you are now familiar with. It is much reduced and can be quite limited. But, I maintain it IS better than nothing. Additionally, when I got quite insistent that E* was in violation, I was told that E*, if forced to implement the PSIP guide data from the stations would most likely disable the ability to effect a record by guide selection in the DVR. OK, I see that comment as a spite move by E*. Yes, there is nothing in the FCC regulation or spirit address requesting manufacturers to comply with a DVR feature. But be aware that is a general mindset at E* we are looking at. 

"add my name to the list" 
I don't know where that is coming from but I have no intention of adding anyone's name to my correspondence to the FCC. I am a licensed broadcast engineer with endorsements. My letter will stand alone. If any of you choose to write advising the FCC of what is going on, please do so and do it from the heart as a private citizen seeking the help of the FCC. That will matter far more than adding names to each other's letters like a petition. The FCC website has procedures to follow when making a formal complaint. Follow them!


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## Ron Barry

Thanks Don for detailed take on the issue.. You confirmed what I was told in February. It is definitely a legal issue and one I don't have any experience in. There is definitely two sides to this equation and I am suprised the FCC did not address both sides at the same time. 

I personally have always felt that Dish should used both their guide stream and PSIP as a back up for stations that do not have guide info available. I see the business side to this issue also, and personally would not want to lose OTA guide info on my DVRs. That would totally suck.


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## Mark Lamutt

jergenf said:


> *MARK:* Presently I'm reluctant to implement 216 until I get more feedback.
> 
> 1) Are the people that have lost their digital OTA stations all non-subscribers?
> 2) Did they use to have their guide data mapped to the actual local channel slots (not just the 7xxx - 9xxx red area of the guide)? Wondering if that could be the cause of this problem.
> 3) Are their any plans to allow PSIP guide data for the 921/942 or is dishnetwork blocking this to encourage people to subscribe?
> 4) What percentage of people are affected with this problem and will they receive free locals until the problem is resolved (assuming that would fix it)?


1. It's looking that way to me, but I don't know if that's a valid assumption to make or not.
2. I don't believe the 2 problems are related.
3. I really have no idea about this one. I would love to see Dish implement PSIP guide data on the receivers, but at this point I believe it to be purely a business decision, and I have very little contact with the business side of things. I don't believe that there's a purely technical reason why they couldn't implement it. But, I could be wrong.
4. No idea about percentage, and no idea if it can be fixed by adding locals, or if Dish will give them back at no charge or not.


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## bbomar

Mark Lamutt said:


> 1. It's looking that way to me, but I don't know if that's a valid assumption to make or not.


I assume L216 was beta tested by folks who have LIL and there was not a problem. I have not seen a post from anyone with LIL who lost OTA locals. Still, not enough for me to feel comfortable installing L216 (I subscribe to LIL) when I get home. Everyone who lost OTA locals needs to post in the proper place above and note whether they subscribe to LIL to provide as much data as possible.


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## jergenf

It's a pity that echostar has to be forced to comply with enabling PSIP data. PSIP was known well before they designed the 811 or 921 even if there wasn't any regulation. Besides I believe it nothing more than a software issue on their part. Also the 942 suffers the same fate and that was released in March of this year (after 2/2005). So what's that excuse? Don pointed out that these receivers are already using PSIP for channel identification so why not grab the title info and create some program blocks in the guide. Even if it they won't allow the program blocks for scheduling events it would still be an improvement. I really feel in the spirit of satisfying their customers they should either allow PSIP or TMS data. They're allow us (with antennas) the ability for free locals and *free should mean free*. I know they want to make money but in my opinion the only people that should be paying for locals are those people who can't receive it. Personally I'm paying dishnetwork $1200 a year so I don't feel my request for guide info, that they neglected to provide from the station, is an unreasonable request.


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## Mark Lamutt

bbomar said:


> I assume L216 was beta tested by folks who have LIL and there was not a problem. I have not seen a post from anyone with LIL who lost OTA locals. Still, not enough for me to feel comfortable installing L216 (I subscribe to LIL) when I get home. Everyone who lost OTA locals needs to post in the proper place above and note whether they subscribe to LIL to provide as much data as possible.


I spent 2 days testing this release with my locals (and all others) shut off, and had no problems adding, scanning or tuning to any of my local digitals. But, I'm in Denver, and we all know by now that everything works perfectly in Denver...


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## TonyB

Just arrived home. Did a check switch again - same result. It says that I lost a SW21. I cannot believe that it happened at EXACTLY the time of the 216 download?

So I click done and go to channel 102 - Nothing, Nada! So how come I could watch 102 just before doing the check switch. Same as happened this morning - I expect that after 10-15 mins I will once again be able to see it.

Any advice, or anyone else get the same result?


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## DonLandis

Ron-
_"I am suprised the FCC did not address both sides at the same time. "_

I'm not! Been involved with FCC regulations since early 70's and this is normal to regulate the broadcasts transmitted signals first and if the manufacturers do not comply with the spirit of the regulation, they will revisit it and force it on them.

Considering the business side- I did too and I just don't see the economics of this move. Granted I don't know the number of subscribers that this affects but bear with me for a moment as I explain my ideas on it. The only subscribers* this affects are those who, get OTA signals easily and consistently who live close enough who would never subscribe to locals into locals anyway. It also includes only those who choose to install an antenna for those locals. Most here want Dish LIL because they, for one reason or another can't get OTA locals. I believe this number* is really quite small and if E* decided to implement a software that simply added the guide to OTA without the analog channels (like L215) there would be so few people who would drop the locals, people like you maybe who only have the LIL for the guide that that number is what matters. Even if that number* is, say 1000 LIL subscribers who don't need or want LIL but subscribe because it gives then the guide for off air digital locals then that represents only $5990 per month of revenue. How much time and effort is E* spending on this now? If they lose, say, one subscriber over this, like me, they would lose $122 per month. That would have to be weighed into this as well. There is something entirely flawed in this whole OTA guide mess and it should be obvious that two other competitors, and also cable does not spend so much money to save a few pennys. E* is spending several orders of magnetude on this effort just to derive a few dollars in sales. It's really stupid from a business angle. I have to say that in my interviews, I saw the mood as one of "we deserve to charge for the guide because people will pay for it." Now they are just spending more bad money do do it without technical difficulties. And, that has been ongoing since December 2004!

I believed that E* would do the right thing and activate the OTA locals guide data for all, like their competition does. Considering that the 921 has 3 major remaining bugs, doing so would simply make one of those bugs go away. It is claimed that they have a handle on ZSR's so that leaves one last bug, a minor annoyancce bug, the stuck AR left. (I left out the memory leaks as they seem to accept the work around of reboot now to fix them and all the trouble they cause)


----------



## bbomar

Mark Lamutt said:


> I spent 2 days testing this release with my locals (and all others) shut off, and had no problems adding, scanning or tuning to any of my local digitals. But, I'm in Denver, and we all know by now that everything works perfectly in Denver...


Good to know that there was some testing with locals unsubbed. But, were you subbed to LIL when L216 installed? Maybe that's where the problem is.


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## Mark Lamutt

Yes I was...the testing that I did was under the beta cut that became L216.


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## DonLandis

Mark Lamutt said:


> I spent 2 days testing this release with my locals (and all others) shut off, and had no problems adding, scanning or tuning to any of my local digitals. But, I'm in Denver, and we all know by now that everything works perfectly in Denver...


Mark- without violating your NDA, can you describe the actual procedure you used? I would like to know, how you shut down your LIL subscription, do you call in and they kill the tier? Let me assume that is what you do. Then, after your tier is killed so you no longer get your locals do you do a power reboot, rescan and kill all the guide data? I guess what I'm concerned with in your brief statement is the timing between events in the test to allow the system to stabilize before running subsequent tests. Once the LIL subscription was turned back on, how did you proceed to verify all the guide data reloaded properly? How many times did you run this test both ways? I learned that also one of the L215 features was to enable out of DMA channels and guide data. I suspect you are not in a location to do those tests at all.


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## jergenf

THIS IS ANOTHER UPDATE to a Q&A that I had with MARK.

_Q1) Are the people that have lost their digital OTA stations all non-subscribers?
A1) It's looking that way to me, but I don't know if that's a valid assumption to make or not._

*Guess we'll need to get more feedback, Have the people who lost OTA specify if they subscribe or not. If people who subscribe are also having this problem then that might be an answer to question 4.

UPDATE: Most if not all complaints (of loosing stations) are from non-subscribers.*

_Q2) Did they use to have their guide data mapped to the actual local channel slots (not just the 7xxx - 9xxx red area of the guide)? Wondering if that could be the cause of this problem.
A2) I don't believe the 2 problems are related._

*I reason I asked was some are stating that they're getting the subchannel but no longer getting the number 1 channel. I thought that might be because the way it was mapped previously. In my case none of the guide info was mapped to the actual local channel. They just remained in the high area of the guide as red (in All-Chan mode).

UPDATE: Non-subscribers who previously had guide data mapped to locals have reported loosing those very same stations.*

_Q3) Are their any plans to allow PSIP guide data for the 921/942 or is dishnetwork blocking this to encourage people to subscribe?
A3) I really have no idea about this one. I would love to see Dish implement PSIP guide data on the receivers, but at this point I believe it to be purely a business decision, and I have very little contact with the business side of things. I don't believe that there's a purely technical reason why they couldn't implement it. But, I could be wrong._

*How can the customer communicate with the business executives? Does this forum reach the people that make the real decisions? Please let me know what role I can play. Personally I don't see any harm in providing guide data to non-subs (at least in the high range) but apparently dish is greedy. The fact that removing free stuff took immediate priority over the many urgent bugs the customers have pleading for so many months.*

_Q4) What percentage of people are affected with this problem and will they receive free locals until the problem is resolved (assuming that would fix it)?
A4) No idea about percentage, and no idea if it can be fixed by adding locals, or if Dish will give them back at no charge or not._

*If the problem is caused by mapping locals from the high area to the actual local channel then maybe they should try turning it on to see if that fixes it. If dishnetwork broke it then they should provide whatever solution necessary that their cost and not the customer's. The only other solution I can think of is to reinstate 215 as 217. Their mistake of providing free guide info is a minor issue to cutting off someones channels. Making the receiver unusable is causing damage to private property.

UPDATE: Non-subscribers that called dish and had them enable locals did receive their stations back. Dish may have to provide FREE locals until problem is resolved.*


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## Ron Barry

DonLandis said:


> Ron-
> I'm not! Been involved with FCC regulations since early 70's and this is normal to regulate the broadcasts transmitted signals first and if the manufacturers do not comply with the spirit of the regulation, they will revisit it and force it on them.
> 
> Considering the business side- .....


Don,

Well you are more up on the FCC than I am. Just figured they would address the whole path if that was the objective. Was not sure if the FCC actually and jurisdiction over the receiver aspect of the path.

As to the business side, well hard to make the call without knowning the numbers. Most likely was a bad decision made internally without knowning the numbers. My guess is they figured that if some are paying for local guide content and local guide info than if you need local guide info you should pay for it regardless.

Personally I agree with you Don that Guide info should be not tied into having LIL. Also feel that at most one should only have a DVR fee per household not per receiver.

Guess I am not fully confinced on your points about the the spirit of the FCC requirements, however, I do feel it is the right thing from a company to customer relationship and in the end that is all that matters. Thanks for the insight and thoughts on the issue. appreciate it.


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## Mark Lamutt

Don, it was an 18 step procedure, requiring 9 of the steps to be done 3 different times under different conditions. Your assumption is basically correct, for all intents and purposes. The entire procedure required multiple reboots, rescans, re-adds. I ran through the entire test sequence a couple of times, and parts of it more than that, doing detailed reporting on what I observed. Once the locals were turned back on, after the reboot and rescan, my guide data was back and complete. And, while I couldn't do actual out of DMA testing (as I'm too far from Colorado Springs or Cheyenne to pick up channels without a much larger antenna), part of the test procedure was a simulation of out of market DMAs.

And, I can't be any more specific than that. I will say that the procedure was very detailed.


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## DonLandis

Thanks, Mark. I don't see anything obvious as to why you would experience so few problems and others are experiencing wide spread problems that are identical. There has to be some flaw in the way the beta tests are done that are consistently not showing consistent reports others see. I was just amazed at the similarity I saw here to the reports on-line. Now why you didn't see the same, i.e. the -2 subchannels being listed and so many others do see that is not evident in your description of the test. You probably know why I was curious as to how you got the Dish LIL removed. The bug may be tied to the active tiers on your card.


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## Michael P

I can answer the first 2 questions from my point of view:

_1) Are the people that have lost their digital OTA stations all non-subscribers?_

I'm a non LIL subscriber and I lost every channel that I used to get guide data via 215.

_2) Did they use to have their guide data mapped to the actual local channel slots (not just the 7xxx - 9xxx red area of the guide)? Wondering if that could be the cause of this problem._

My locals appeared in red in the 8000 range, along with one OOM that I had scanned into the guide just prior to 215. Other OOM's that are on superdish did not get guide data and still appear in my guide, sans program info.


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## Redster

L216 arrived . I followed my standard steps to install.
1) Delete all OTA's and saved
2) Turned off 921, wait 2 mins, then pull power cord for 5 mins.
3) After boot up, rescanned OTA's and add channels I want.

All my OTA's are there with guide info for main channel, no guide info for subs. I also noticed like others that I am getting a reading 10 points or so higher on signal strength than I did before on both my main OTA channels. I am getting no lag at all when I switch between OTA channels and they lock right in. Looks like L216 fixed my OTA issues, wish it could have done the same for everyone.

Boot: 120B
Flash: F051
SW: L216 HECD-N


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## Rotryrkt

I too have lost all digital channels that I had guide data for in L215. L216 has also introduced other problems as well. I now have LOTS of pixelizations and audio dropouts in recorded HD material, lockups when navigating the DVR menu and inability to record a SD program while watching a recorded HD OTA program. These problems are now worse than they have ever been in any release so far.

E*, you are in trouble now. My wife has become accustomed to watching her soap "The Young and the Restless" in the evenings after work in HD. As it stands now, this is no longer possible. She's not to happy with you at this point. Trust me, you don't want to be the object of her wrath. 

How about activating everyone's local channels or going back to L215 until you get this new problem resolved. 

E* you've stepped in it again!!!!


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## bbomar

DonLandis said:


> The bug may be tied to the active tiers on your card.


I suspect it is a function of whether you subscribe to locals at the time L216 is installed. I subscribe to locals and L216 made no changes whatsoever to my 921. I still have OTA guide data and reception of the Nashville digital channels in my DMA (main subchannel only, as before, for guide data), and guide data and reception of the Huntsville, AL stations outside my DMA. I still receive the CBS station out of Chattanooga which is outside my DMA, which is in the 7000 channel number range, and still have no guide data for it. However, it is carried on a satellite which I do not receive (105 I think).


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## madbrain

I don't subscribe to locals from satellite. I have lost about 16 out of the 25 OTA channels I had with L215.

By "lost", I don't mean that I lost the guide data. I can no longer tune to any of those channels. The 16 channels no longer appear in the guide, even under "all subs" !

The list of channels I can no longer tune at all to includes all the major networks - ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS ...

I have done hard power-down/up of the box. I have deleted and rescanned all the channels. When I do the OTA scan, it finds all the OTA channels there. But they don't appear in the guide, and I can't tune to them.

Maybe it's time to file a lawsuit against echostar for remotely disabling OTA in my box.


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## bbomar

madbrain said:


> I don't subscribe to locals from satellite. I have lost about 16 out of the 25 OTA channels I had with L215.


Look at the bottom of this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=44189

Looks like if you call tech support they will fix the problem by giving
you the locals until they can get this bug fixed. I would think that
is the least they can do.


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## Guest

This is my theory... so far.

If you are like me, lost OTA digital and do not subscribe to LiL, you will not get back your OTA digitals if your LiLs come from a satellite you cannot see. For example, Lincoln DMA comes from 105. I don't have a 105FSS in my system so I am SOL.


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## chewey

madbrain said:


> I don't subscribe to locals from satellite. I have lost about 16 out of the 25 OTA channels I had with L215.
> 
> By "lost", I don't mean that I lost the guide data. I can no longer tune to any of those channels. The 16 channels no longer appear in the guide, even under "all subs" !
> 
> The list of channels I can no longer tune at all to includes all the major networks - ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS ...
> 
> I have done hard power-down/up of the box. I have deleted and rescanned all the channels. When I do the OTA scan, it finds all the OTA channels there. But they don't appear in the guide, and I can't tune to them.
> 
> Maybe it's time to file a lawsuit against echostar for remotely disabling OTA in my box.


I'm having the same problem. This better get fixed fast!!!


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## welchwarlock

My guess is that the only thing that was "Fixed" was removing OTA Guide data for people who did not subscribe to local channels. I am truly amazed how quickly they put that genie back into the bottle.

But of course, as an 821 owner, you get the guide data for Free! It is simply a Tax on people who can afford to spend money on the 921!

WW


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## phongluu

Not only loosing ALL LOCAL HD channel xxx-1, but I also notice:

1. The receive won't allow me channel up or channel down from remote when it's in local channel, ie 002-2, it will not go to 004-2. Even with browse!

2. After reboot and rescan, I do see all the xx-1 (OTA HD) channels is there in the list, but after hitting SAVE it only save xxx-2, and filter out the xxx-1.

Boyzzzz! This is soooo **** up!

P.L


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## chewey

I too lost my local OTA digital channels. Just after they finally provided the guide data and I thought things were all good.

Was the guide data info for non-subscribers just an accident?

Is Dish trying to punish subscribers who don't subscribe to their locals by cutting off their ability to even pick up the OTA feed?

If this isn't just a bug and Dish is tying to force people to pay an extra $5.99 just to pick up their local channels, then I think it is about time we start putting our money where our mouth is. What if Dish had a mass exodus of 921 owners just cancel their service? Are there enough disgruntled customers out there to really register a blip on Dish's radar. Maybe its just a fantasy of mine, thinking of how cool it would be for thousands of subs to cancel their service in a matter of days.


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## jergenf

Michael P said:


> I can answer the first 2 questions from my point of view:
> 
> _1) Are the people that have lost their digital OTA stations all non-subscribers?_
> 
> I'm a non LIL subscriber and I lost every channel that I used to get guide data via 215.
> 
> _2) Did they use to have their guide data mapped to the actual local channel slots (not just the 7xxx - 9xxx red area of the guide)? Wondering if that could be the cause of this problem._
> 
> My locals appeared in red in the 8000 range, along with one OOM that I had scanned into the guide just prior to 215. Other OOM's that are on superdish did not get guide data and still appear in my guide, sans program info.


It's appearing to me that those that had guide data remapped to the local channels have now lost them. I believe in their haste to remove free guide info from their table matrix they didn't realize that the remap action would actually remove the station it was linked to. Obviously they didn't test this release very well. Dishnetwork will give you at least two months of free locals until this problem is resolved but you must insist or be ignored.


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## The Guv

I don't pay for locals channels and never will. I love my grandfathered "distants" too much.

When I got L215, I DID NOT get the OTA guide data for my local TV market (Quad Cities-Iowa/Illinois) on any channel.

Now, I am reading about apparent L216 fiasco and I am VERY VERY reluctant to reboot my 921, since I don't want to lose my OTA channels. 

FYI, I leave my reciever on almost all the time so I don't get software updated until I turn my reciever off. Thus, I still have L215 and I won't reboot until I hear that they have these issues worked out.

Why does Dish Network like to mess with their high-end customers?


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## boylehome

chewey said:


> If this isn't just a bug and Dish is tying to force people to pay an extra $5.99 just to pick up their local channels


 This is an interesting thought. Is there a power move to get more subscriptions? The Idea of controlling the receivers to block local OTA's is concerning. I'm hoping that someone with some facts can put this concern to rest.

I can add this: Yesterday, there was some kind of atmospheric weather inversion which allowed me to scan and receive Sacramento's KCRA digital 03 yesterday. This is outside my DMA, the station is about 150 miles away. I do subscribe to E* locals. You would think that if E* is intentionally blocking, I shouldn't have been able to receive and view the channel as it is outside my DMA.


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## Guest

I just checked my analog capability. I have lost those too, in addition to the digitals.

Please don't tell me I'll be without my local DTV channels for months while this is being "debugged"!


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## jergenf

The Guv said:


> Now, I am reading about apparent L216 fiasco and I am VERY VERY reluctant to reboot my 921, since I don't want to lose my OTA channels.
> 
> FYI, I leave my reciever on almost all the time so I don't get software updated until I turn my reciever off. Thus, I still have L215 and I won't reboot until I hear that they have these issues worked out.


Like me you probably already have 216 installed. You can verify this by going menu 6 and then search for software update. It won't take effect until you reboot. 
If you now have guide info mapped to your locals then you will loose those channels. I think dishnetwork will have to give you free locals to correct this problem according to a few post. Like you I'm reluctant to reboot because I don't want the spend six hours on the phone trying to convince dishnetwork that it's their software that caused this.


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## jergenf

boylehome said:


> This is an interesting thought. Is there a power move to get more subscriptions? The Idea of controlling the receivers to block local OTA's is concerning. I'm hoping that someone with some facts can put this concern to rest.


Yes and no. Dish is withholding guide info in hopes to persuade people to subscribe and believe it or not many people will pay $72 a year for it. However they didn't mean to take away your free channels. In haste they updated the table matrix without realizing that those non-subscribers that had that data remapped would also loose the channel it was mirrored to. They will enable your locals so you can get back your channels. Dishnetwork will allow a $5.99 credit for the first month to counter the charges.

PS: Any new channels outside of your DMA that you get, *probably* won't be affected because it wasn't being remapped in the first place.

*UPDATE:* If you was getting guide data from an outside DMA with 215 you may loose that channel with the 216 bug. Although there's a temporarly fix (having dish enable your locals) for this bug, I don't believe they can enable outside DMA locals for legal reasons.


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## The Guv

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Guv
Now, I am reading about apparent L216 fiasco and I am VERY VERY reluctant to reboot my 921, since I don't want to lose my OTA channels.

FYI, I leave my reciever on almost all the time so I don't get software updated until I turn my reciever off. Thus, I still have L215 and I won't reboot until I hear that they have these issues worked out.



jergenf said:


> Like me you probably already have 216 installed. You can verify this by going menu 6 and then search for software update. It won't take effect until you reboot.
> If you now have guide info mapped to your locals then you will loose those channels. I think dishnetwork will have to give you free locals to correct this problem according to a few post. Like you I'm reluctant to reboot because I don't want the spend six hours on the phone trying to convince dishnetwork that it's their software that caused this.


Nope, I still have L215HEED-N and I hope it stays that way. The only reason why I might have to reboot (turn off the machine) is if my power is interupted.


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## jergenf

The Guv said:


> Nope, I still have L215HEED-N and I hope it stays that way. The only reason why I might have to reboot (turn off the machine) is if my power is interupted.


Don't look at menu 6-1 but rather 6-7. If it states "successful download" then you've got it on your hard drive and it will take effect when rebooted. All the units that received 215 are getting 216. It's constantly in the data stream and your machine automatically loads if it senses it as a new release. The 921 has two tuners and they can't be busy all the time (unless you disconnected one of them).

Loosing power will certainly cause a reboot but most likely you'll be forced to do a reboot when one of the infamous 921 bugs arises. My guess is that you and I probably won't loose any stations but as far as I'm concerned there's still no rush to find out Besides I'll try to enjoy the guide data I'm still getting for as long as possible so I'll just keep it on 24/7.


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## DonLandis

_"Originally Posted by DonLandis
The bug may be tied to the active tiers on your card.
bbomar:
I suspect it is a function of whether you subscribe to locals at the time L216 is installed."_

Same thing!


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## bbomar

DonLandis said:


> _"Originally Posted by DonLandis
> The bug may be tied to the active tiers on your card.
> bbomar:
> I suspect it is a function of whether you subscribe to locals at the time L216 is installed."_
> 
> Same thing!


I didn't mean to imply that it's not the same thing. I was just wondering if the state of the tiers at the time of the L216 install might be critical. It seems that most of the testing with tier changes was done after the L216 install.


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## jergenf

The Guv said:


> I don't pay for locals channels and never will. I love my grandfathered "distants" too much.
> 
> When I got L215, I DID NOT get the OTA guide data for my local TV market (Quad Cities-Iowa/Illinois) on any channel.


With 215 you might have received local guide info for Davenport, IA- Rock Island, IL if you had superdish installed. It might have appearred in the 7xxx-9xxx range of the guide as red.


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## paulcdavis

boylehome said:


> I can add this: Yesterday, there was some kind of atmospheric weather inversion which allowed me to scan and receive Sacramento's KCRA digital 03 yesterday. This is outside my DMA, the station is about 150 miles away. I do subscribe to E* locals. You would think that if E* is intentionally blocking, I shouldn't have been able to receive and view the channel as it is outside my DMA.


The same strange atmospheric conditions made me unable to receive KCRA digital 3-1 from 63 miles away. The other Sacramento stations were ok.


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## Mark Lamutt

Please see this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=44228


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## harlock328

Before seeing Mark's post about sending the info to him; I called Dishnetwork and spoke to a supervisor (tech) about this issue. I ask him to give me locals until they fixed the problem. He said in a very smart-ass way why should dish give something to me for free. I tried to explain to him that it was thier upgrade that cause me to lose all my OTA and all I wanted is the service I had before they screwed it up. Keep saying no way we're giving you something for free. I came very close to just canceling dish right there. What piss-poor customer service.


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## jergenf

The Guv said:


> I don't pay for locals channels and never will. I love my grandfathered "distants" too much.


*Warning: Important news for you.* If you loose your OTA and you call dish to have them enable locals (for the free fix) you could loose you distant local package and grandfather rights. Instead go through Mark. See Mark's sticky thread on temporary fix for 921. Or click on link just two post up.


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## chewey

Does anyone (Mark) know what Dish's position is on providing guide information to customers who do not subscribe to locals? Are they witholding the guide info to people who just get locals OTA in order to induce them to pay the extra $5.99 for locals? Does Dish have to pay anything for the rights just to show the guide info? Are they trying to get people who are grandfathered in to the distant nets to give them up? Or are they just so bad at designing software that they can't get it done?


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## socceteer

I downloaded L216 and so far so good, my only complaint is that they did not fix the remote control freeze on either L215 or L216


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## Allen Noland

socceteer said:


> I downloaded L216 and so far so good, my only complaint is that they did not fix the remote control freeze on either L215 or L216


L216 was only to fix guide data problems. L217 will most lkely only correct the current OTA mess.


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## lapplegate

Allen Noland said:


> L216 was only to fix guide data problems. L217 will most lkely only correct the current OTA mess.


If 216 didn't fix your guide data problem, and 217 is to fix OTA, when will the real guide data fix be?

Long answer: About L45,765 Short answer: MPEG 4.


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## TonyB

lapplegate said:


> If 216 didn't fix your guide data problem, and 217 is to fix OTA, when will the real guide data fix be?
> 
> Long answer: About L45,765 Short answer: MPEG 4.


Wrong - the answer is Cable or D*


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## Mark Lamutt

chewey said:


> Does anyone (Mark) know what Dish's position is on providing guide information to customers who do not subscribe to locals? Are they witholding the guide info to people who just get locals OTA in order to induce them to pay the extra $5.99 for locals? Does Dish have to pay anything for the rights just to show the guide info? Are they trying to get people who are grandfathered in to the distant nets to give them up? Or are they just so bad at designing software that they can't get it done?


The policy is that you must subscribe to your Dish locals in order to receive guide data for your OTA locals. It is purely a business decision, not a technical one. Yes, Dish pays a fee to supply the guide data - they do not get it for free. In fact, they pay a great deal for the data, just like all of the other companies do that get the data from Tribune.


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## langlin

Mark or Allen, is there any chance that L217 will also give us back the channel guide data for those we lost in L213 ???


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## Mark Lamutt

Guide data, no. Channels lost in L216, yes.


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## socceteer

Mark Lamutt said:


> The policy is that you must subscribe to your Dish locals in order to receive guide data for your OTA locals. It is purely a business decision, not a technical one. Yes, Dish pays a fee to supply the guide data - they do not get it for free. In fact, they pay a great deal for the data, just like all of the other companies do that get the data from Tribune.


Are you kidding me...!

I can connect any HD receiver on my TV and I get the data for Free, why do they pay, I would think it would be the other way around, the stations should want the consumer to know what is on their station.

Why is it that it is free with any other OTA HD receiver..? and why can't Dish just use that free data..?


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## Ron Barry

Sorry socceteer, Give it try and you will find that the guide information coming over the air in 90% of the cases will not be same. PSIP != Tribune. Also the PSIP data in most cases will not got out the full two weeks. 

Nothing stopping Dish from using the free data, but the free data is not up to the quality of the data provided in the feed in most cases. As to providing it for free to the DVR users, like Mark said, it is a business decison not a technical one.


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## chewey

Mark Lamutt said:


> The policy is that you must subscribe to your Dish locals in order to receive guide data for your OTA locals. It is purely a business decision, not a technical one. Yes, Dish pays a fee to supply the guide data - they do not get it for free. In fact, they pay a great deal for the data, just like all of the other companies do that get the data from Tribune.


Wha about us poor suckers who don't want to lose the distant subs we are grandfathered into. I'd suck it up and pay for the guide data, but then I would lose my distant networks.


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## Mark Lamutt

Sorry, guys. I don't have an answer for you.


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## BobMurdoch

Jeez, I'm stuck at my office replacing 10 computers (woo hoo!!!!!!!!!!.. DVD Burners, 19" LCD Screens, 3.6GHz P4, 1 Gig RAM), and all heck busts loose.

All I noticed last night was that SciFi Friday timers fired on THURSDAY (Go figure.... hope they don't burp tonight). Finally leaving in 30 minutes to go home for the weekend.

No OTA channels on my box so that is all I noticed. Will do a reboot when I get home...


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## BobaBird

chewey said:


> Are they witholding the guide info to people who just get locals OTA in order to induce them to pay the extra $5.99 for locals?


Yes. Read what Don Landis has written about the intent of the FCC for all OTA DTV receivers to be able to show some kind of free guide for free broadcasts.


> Does Dish have to pay anything for the rights just to show the guide info?


They have to pay the service that compiles all the listings from around the country. (Much like we pay Dish to put several FTA C-band channels on one dish.) Don't know if there is any kind of royalty for letting people see it but I'll note that we are already paying a DVR fee.


> Are they trying to get people who are grandfathered in to the distant nets to give them up?


Not likely. At best it would be revenue neutral but I would think that people who can get distants would want 2 time zones so it would actually be a loss for them. It could be a gain from subscribers who lose the old LIL/DNS/SS package discount by altering their bundle.


> Or are they just so bad at designing software that they can't get it done?


All I can say is "L216." I'm sure the designers' job would be much simpler if they didn't have to code for a spiteful and vindictive business attitude.

I will suggest a change in the way I think the code works:
Don't link the display of guide data for OTA channels to the display of satellite LIL channels. If an OTA channel is received and identified, do not check for reception of that channel from the satellite. It is not necessary as the guide data for all satellites is in the EEPG which is available only from 110°. If the call letters match (or however that is done now) display the guide info.

Dish then needs to decide whether it is more cost effective to buy the guide data for the channels and markets it does not carry or to develop a PSIP solution.


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## chewey

Bobabird and Mark,

Thanks for the good answers. You seems to have a good understanding/theory on what Dish is doing.

They are really giving a lot of 921 customers the shaft on this one. Luckily there's nothing but repeats and no football on the networks right now, otherwise I would have cancelled since I can't even watch OTA HD at this point. I thought D* finally got their S*** together with 2.15, but they quickly cured me of that delusion.


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## socceteer

I did some research and did not see a good place to place this question...so her it is

Has anyone notice more Pixilation and loss signal with L216....? I have issues with my OTA, HD and SD channels that I did not have before L216


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## boylehome

socceteer said:


> I did some research and did not see a good place to place this question...so her it is
> 
> Has anyone notice more Pixilation and loss signal with L216....? I have issues with my OTA, HD and SD channels that I did not have before L216


CBSHD 9484 satellite 148. I see that pixilation has returned. Other channels seem alright.


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## Rotryrkt

socceteer said:


> I did some research and did not see a good place to place this question...so her it is
> 
> Has anyone notice more Pixilation and loss signal with L216....? I have issues with my OTA, HD and SD channels that I did not have before L216


Yes definitely!!!! I used to have signal levels of 125 on almost all of my OTAs. Now I am lucky to get 100 on the strongest of them. No changes in my antenna or cabling, L216 is the only variable. Pixelation and audio dropouts are also markedly increased on OTAs.


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## socceteer

Does anyone know if this is recognized as a problem and is anyone looking at it..!

It looks like I am not alone on this one..!


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## Ron Barry

My understanding is that the signal indicator on the 921 is just like the 811 and it is signal to error ratio. Also, I have my 811 hooked up to the same antenna and it is displays about 30 points less than my 921. 

I noticed a drop a few revs back and with the last rev noticed an increase. I figure the 921 is obviously using a different scale. However, from version to version I have not noticed any difference in receiving my signal. 

Have you noticed a difference in your signal quality soccetter with 215? 

As to PQ.. I have not notices an overall change in PQ.


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## lapplegate

Rotryrkt said:


> Yes definitely!!!! I used to have signal levels of 125 on almost all of my OTAs. Now I am lucky to get 100 on the strongest of them. No changes in my antenna or cabling, L216 is the only variable. Pixelation and audio dropouts are also markedly increased on OTAs.


You could also possibly be losing your tuner.

I used to have the HECD-N model. I would get ss that when 1st tuned in would hit 125, them immediately drop to around the 80s. I would get breakups and many OTA recording have the lost signal message in them. I considered it to be a multipath issue. Then the unit crashed and the replacement is a HEED-N model.
Now all but 1 channel locks on 125. When they 1st lock they hit 125 and do not drop down ant at all.

I believe that the previous unit must have had a defect OTA tuner. I don't know if the HECD / HEED had anything to do with it, but the tuners in different units definitely does.

Larry


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## langlin

My signal reading is lower but the PQ is still perfect, I know I lost some when trees leafed out.


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## Rotryrkt

Most of my OTA signal strengths are now back with 218 where they were before 216 (120-125). Don't know yet if this is a result of new SW or just a coincidence. They haven't ever been this strong that I have noticed since 216, though. Could be significant. I haven't noticed any pixelization or audio dropouts......yet. I'll keep watching closely for a few days.


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## Mark Lamutt

L218 is now here, so I'm closing this thread. Please continue your discussion in the L218 is Spooling thread.

Thanks!


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