# First Look: SWM-13 LNB



## Scott Kocourek

*DBSTalk is proud to release the First Look of the SWM-13 LNB*​​​





​​*SWM-13 LNB First Look* ​
Please note that this product is currently available only in test markets​​_Please note that some DBSTalk.com testers and staff members may have received free equipment from DIRECTV or its partners for the purpose of evaluation and testing._


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## Stuart Sweet

Scott and the test team did an excellent job on this!


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## mexican-bum

Very cool! I might have to get one of these, will be absolutely perfect for my setup, 1 Genie and 4 HD DVR's.


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## HoTat2

Nice FL;

Though figured it was in the works with its prototype's appearance at CES 2014 and the entry into the satellite setup dish configuration list.

Any indication this LNBF has RDBS receive capability?

I ask since there's no specific mention of the bands this LNBF receives. And 99 and 103 is also where RB-1 and RB-2 will be with the upcoming launches of D14 and 15 respectively.


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## P Smith

would be nice to see published official freq plan of new LNBF and other technical characteristics what usually applicable to the devices


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## damondlt

Nice we were just discussing the dswm13 multiswitch in another thread. Nice to see the lnb. I may test this out really soon. 
As soon as I can anyway.


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## damondlt

I guess my next question is where is the 5 lnb version?


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## WestDC

Thtat's great- I currently have 5 LNB - what Channels would I lose from the 110 & 119 or does this mean they will be going away in the distance future?


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## mexican-bum

WestDC said:


> Thtat's great- I currently have 5 LNB - what Channels would I lose from the 110 & 119 or does this mean they will be going away in the distance future?


Not much I don't think, possibly SD locals, spanish channels, maybe some international channels and a few music channels.....


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## PCampbell

This would make a upgrade to an HR44 very easy for me. I could get rid of a lot of wires.


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## compnurd

When is this due out?


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## jameskelly

Hi:

Sorry for the dumb question. What will it give us?


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## longrider

jameskelly said:


> Hi:
> 
> Sorry for the dumb question. What will it give us?


The ability to have 13 tuners instead of 8 on a single wire. The old system required 2 wires if you mounted the SWM16 at the dish or 4 wires if you mounted the SWM16 inside. A big advantage for homes prewired for cable is that you dont have to divide the house into two zones


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## quik

So I take it the swm-3 lnb's power inserter works with this new swm-13 lnb?

This is great and exactly what I need, need 9 tuners and didn't want to install/switch out to what's currently required.

Hope it comes out soon!


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## HoTat2

quik said:


> So I take it the swm-3 lnb's power inserter works with this new swm-13 lnb?


I would assume its uses the same PI;

But for whatever reasons there has been no Q&A interaction on this thread with anyone of the testing team to confirm anything yet.


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## dpeters11

I think if a different power inserter was needed, it would be mentioned in the document. This looks to be a simple LNB swapout only.


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## SFNSXguy

Is this also a direct replacement for a SWMline SL5-S LNB ?
And would use the same power inserter?


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## damondlt

SFNSXguy said:


> Is this also a direct replacement for a SWMline SL5-S LNB ?


YES and No.
No if you need the 119 or have a SD equipment or Latino programming. 
Yes if you have all HD equipment and only use 99,101,103 satellites


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## SFNSXguy

I only have three HR20-700.... but would like to add an HR44. No Latino programming.
So, the SWM-13 would be appropriate?... not sure what's on 119... and would use the same power inserter?


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## widmark

longrider said:


> The ability to have 13 tuners instead of 8 on a single wire. The old system required 2 wires if you mounted the SWM16 at the dish or 4 wires if you mounted the SWM16 inside. A big advantage for homes prewired for cable is that you dont have to divide the house into two zones


I just have some genie clients and a whole home HR DVR (prob 44 but maybe earlier version). Already installed. I assume unless I need more tuners, this will have no benefit? Wondering if this somehow will matter for 4K... Do they use multiple tuners perhaps to deliver 4K content?


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## lzhj9k

SFNSXguy said:


> Is this also a direct replacement for a SWMline SL5-S LNB ?
> And would use the same power inserter?


From our friends at Solid Signal.....

If this is a new install, you will also need a *power inserter*. Either the PI21 (black) power inserter or the PI29 (grey) power inserter will work. You can run a single wire from the LNB to an *8-way splitter* and feed all your devices from there. 

Mike


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## dieguy

I haven't seen it, but when is it due out?


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## tonyd79

I've gotten a bit behind on this technology. With this, all you need is the LNB, possibly a PI and just splitters? No separate SWM module?


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## damondlt

SFNSXguy said:


> I only have three HR-20-700.... but would like to add an HR44. No Latino programming.


Then yes you'll be fine.


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## Scott Kocourek

tonyd79 said:


> I've gotten a bit behind on this technology. With this, all you need is the LNB, possibly a PI and just splitters? No separate SWM module?


Correct, LNB - PI - Splitters.


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## Scott Kocourek

dieguy said:


> I haven't seen it, but when is it due out?


It's only in a couple test markets at the time, I don't know when it will be available all over but when it is you will be able to purchase one at solidsignal.com, DIRECTV will not send one out.


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## Scott Kocourek

lzhj9k said:


> From our friends at Solid Signal.....
> 
> If this is a new install, you will also need a *power inserter*. Either the PI21 (black) power inserter or the PI29 (grey) power inserter will work. You can run a single wire from the LNB to an *8-way splitter* and feed all your devices from there.
> 
> Mike


Yes, soligsignal.com has a nice review on this too.


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## tonyd79

Scott Kocourek said:


> Correct, LNB - PI - Splitters.


Very cool. Since I am in a condo, most of my wires are in the corner of my bedroom (dish outside on patio). This will clean things up a lot.


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## WestDC

For folks that currently have 13 tuners or less can DIY and should it fail they would have all the parts ready to go back to SWM 16 at any time


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## Steve615

Another great first look. Great job, gang.


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## HoTat2

Scott Kocourek said:


> Yes, soligsignal.com has a nice review on this too.


Scott;

Any word on RDBS capability?


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## Scott Kocourek

HoTat2 said:


> Scott;
> 
> Any word on RDBS capability?


No word. Sorry.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk


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## mwhitti1

How do I know if I need 119. Losing Latino programming is not a problem but what else is on there? If there's a way for me to check, please advise. Thanks


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## Drew2k

Nice work team. I still have 4 wires coming from my dish coming into multiswitches, but if I ever pare down the number of receivers and tuners I have this is the LNB I'd want...


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## wease

Do you think that they might let us have 2 genies with this new lnb???


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## Gary Toma

mwhitti1 said:


> How do I know if I need 119. Losing Latino programming is not a problem but what else is on there? If there's a way for me to check, please advise. Thanks


MWhitti,

Go to the Tips & Resources Forum. Then go to the TPN Map thread and open the Excel published in post #1. Use some basic Excel sorting and you will have detail on every channel from D7S @119W all wrapped up for you.


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## HoTat2

mwhitti1 said:


> How do I know if I need 119. Losing Latino programming is not a problem but what else is on there? If there's a way for me to check, please advise. Thanks


Yes, to expand on Gary's post, best way to be totally sure (if you are a little handy with an MS Excel spreadsheet) is to go here and download the latest "Domestic" TPN map.

http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/200951-transponder-maps-domestic-latinam-data-refresh-932014/

Then for the sheet under the "CONUS" tab, enable editing and then select the filter option.

Under the "Satellite" column drop-down box select only "[email protected]" entry. See if there is any channel listed in the results there that you want.

Then go to the "LIL" tab and find your local market and make sure you have no SD locals coming from [email protected]

If the answer is no to both of these questions, then you don't need a Slimline-5 LNB.

NOTE: If you want early-bird holiday music, be advised that does begin on the 119 satellite and therefore will require an SL-5 LNB.


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## damondlt

Scott, do you know about what the pricing may be?
Around a current swm lnb?


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## HoTat2

wease said:


> Do you think that they might let us have 2 genies with this new lnb???


DIRECTV's decision whatever it may ultimately be for allowing two Genies on the same account would be unrelated to this ....


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## TheRatPatrol

wease said:


> Do you think that they might let us have 2 genies with this new lnb???


That's exactly what I was wondering. Maybe they had to wait on this in order to allow us to have two?


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## Groundhog45

I used a PI29 power inserter from a SWiM-8 for the test unit. Works great, even though it is old and not a green label power supply. I may have to order a new PI29 just to have the proper device. I went from a 5 LNB to the SWM-13. The only trick is identifying one of the four wires to use. Easy with a volt meter or a line tester, like this:









Available from Solid Signal and other vendors.


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## HoTat2

I'd actually love one of these myself;

Got a Genie and four DVRs here for 13 tuners. So this would be just enough;

Unfortunately, my sister loves the early holiday music that always starts out on the 119 bird before being mirrored over to 101 around a month later. 

So no sell here unless DIRECTV develops a SL-5 version or stops the strange practice of 119-first-then-eventually-to-101 for the holiday music channel.


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## NR4P

Nice work testers. I might even get rid of my heat generating swm16 to try this when available.


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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Any indication this LNBF has RDBS receive capability?
> 
> I ask since there's no specific mention of the bands this LNBF receives. And 99 and 103 is also where RB-1 and RB-2 will be with the upcoming launches of D14 and 15 respectively.


The first generation EN5400 chip from Entropic supported 14 500 MHz input bands, so it would be incapable of supporting RDBS. The second generation EN5500 captures six full (250 - 2350 MHz) input bands and would support RDBS - assuming the LNB was designed to receive it.

I'm really surprised to see a DSWM LNB for general use (apparently) that supports only 13 channels, given that the chips are capable of supporting more. It may be a power limitation, since the EN5400 draws 4x more power than the EN5500. Directv may have cut it down from the 20 channels it is capable of to keep it within the budget for existing power inserters.

If so, the DSWM13 LNB won't last long and would be replaced next year by a DSWM23 LNB. Not only the EN5500, but compatible chips from Maxlinear and Broadcom will be available in volume by the end of this year.


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## slice1900

Groundhog45 said:


> I used a PI29 power inserter from a SWiM-8 for the test unit. Works great, even though it is old and not a green label power supply. I may have to order a new PI29 just to have the proper device. I went from a 5 LNB to the SWM-13. The only trick is identifying one of the four wires to use. Easy with a volt meter or a line tester, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CableTester.jpg
> 
> Available from Solid Signal and other vendors.


Would you happen to have a way to measure the power consumption of the DSWM13 LNB? I'm curious if that's the reason they limited it to only 13 channels.


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## damondlt

slice1900 said:


> I'm really surprised to see a DSWM LNB for general use (apparently) that supports only 13 channels, given that the chips are capable of supporting more. It may be a power limitation, since the EN5400 draws 4x more power than the EN5500. Directv may have cut it down from the 20 channels it is capable of to keep it within the budget for existing power inserters.
> .


If it was capable of 20 channels, then why not go 17 (since the swm 8 really has 9 and the new swm 13 really has 14) and make it a Dswm16 ? 
A regular swm 16 has no issues with using a PI 29.

I'm guessing vast majority of customers are anticipated to fall into the 8 and 13 tuner category, and when the 2 Genies are aloud per account a swm 8 and 16 is basically useless, and why not have just a single LNB for the larger systems?
Trouble shooting a swm 16 system is a pain. You never know where to begin.

After seeing this , I'm thinking Tech support is right about being able to have 2 Genies by March 2015.


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## mexican-bum

damondlt said:


> After seeing this , I'm thinking Tech support is right about being able to have 2 Genies by March 2015.


I hope so, would love another HR44... I am thinking 2 HR44's 1 Hr24, 1 H25 and 1 Mini would work in place of what I have now perfectly.


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## damondlt

mexican-bum said:


> I hope so, would love another HR44... I am thinking 2 HR44's 1 Hr24, 1 H25 and 1 Mini would work in place of what I have now perfectly.


I'm already planning 2 Genies, 2 C41s, HR24, H25.


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## VABlitz

I'd love a second Genie. Then I could get rid of all three of my HR2x's that are slowly failing one by one and are slow as crap. I'll start adding more of the Genie mini clients or regular receivers. And a bonus getting rid of that multiswitch.


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## slice1900

damondlt said:


> If it was capable of 20 channels, then why not go 17 (since the swm 8 really has 9 and the new swm 13 really has 14) and make it a Dswm16 ?
> A regular swm 16 has no issues with using a PI 29.
> 
> I'm guessing vast majority of customers are anticipated to fall into the 8 and 13 tuner category, and when the 2 Genies are aloud per account a swm 8 and 16 is basically useless, and why not have just a single LNB for the larger systems?
> Trouble shooting a swm 16 system is a pain. You never know where to begin.
> 
> After seeing this , I'm thinking Tech support is right about being able to have 2 Genies by March 2015.


Well the idea is, the chip used in the DSWM13 LNB supports way more than 13 tuners, so why limit it at all? It doesn't save any money cutting it down, it only saves power. But you might be right about the customer base. Directv would obviously have stats on this, and likely well over 99% of their residential customer base have 13 or fewer tuners.

I suppose beyond power they could be concerned with splitter loss, especially for DECA. Just because you can support 20 or 24 tuners doesn't mean it will result in a working install if isn't handled right. The more splits and DECA nodes on one segment, the tighter your cable length restrictions. They have to make this something even the dumbest installers they have can manage to not screw up.


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## tonyd79

Groundhog45 said:


> . The only trick is identifying one of the four wires to use. Easy with a volt meter or a line tester, like this:


When you guys say this, you mean knowing which wire goes where, right? Having troubling figuring out the existing routing? All of mine are about six feet long and I will be pulling all but one out.


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## damondlt

tonyd79 said:


> When you guys say this, you mean knowing which wire goes where, right? Having troubling figuring out the existing routing? All of mine are about six feet long and I will be pulling all but one out.


I was wondering the same thing, but I think they are talking about the ones that have their Swm 8 or 16 in doors. Some customers may not be able to remove the other 3 lines to narrow it down due to walls, staples and such.

You would have a 25% chance of getting it right the first time. Lol.


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## Groundhog45

slice1900 said:


> Would you happen to have a way to measure the power consumption of the DSWM13 LNB? I'm curious if that's the reason they limited it to only 13 channels.


Sorry, I don't have any way to measure the current.



tonyd79 said:


> When you guys say this, you mean knowing which wire goes where, right? Having troubling figuring out the existing routing? All of mine are about six feet long and I will be pulling all but one out.


I was referring to identifying one of the four wires coming from the existing LNB down to the SWM-16 (or SWM-8 if you had one) to use with a splitter to the receivers. I have a lot less heat in the closet with the SWM-16 off.


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## tonyd79

Groundhog45 said:


> I was referring to identifying one of the four wires coming from the existing LNB down to the SWM-16 (or SWM-8 if you had one) to use with a splitter to the receivers. I have a lot less heat in the closet with the SWM-16 off.


Same thing, different view. Make sense. Thanks.


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## JACKIEGAGA

Once again great job first lookers


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## peds48

Nowadays is very common to have a few DVRs (perhaps 2) plus a Genie and some clients. With this LNB, you can have 2 DVRs, the Genie, 3 clients. that is 6 rooms, 13 tuners running off a single cable. Awesome


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## TheRatPatrol

peds48 said:


> Nowadays is very common to have a few DVRs (perhaps 2) plus a Genie and some clients. With this LNB, you can have 2 DVRs, the Genie, 3 clients. that is 6 rooms, 13 tuners running off a single cable. Awesome


Actually you can have one Genie, 4 DVR's and 3 clients, 8 rooms. Great for a family.


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## peds48

TheRatPatrol said:


> Actually you can have one Genie, 4 DVR's and 3 clients, 8 rooms. Great for a family.


Yes, I was thinking of an example I gave on the FL, which actually dictated the limit of the SWM LNB. Good catch


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## carl6

In response to all the questions about two Genies, as was noted somewhere earlier in the thread, this is not related at all to being able to have more than one Genie, and that policy is not going to change as a result of the introduction of this LNB.

I'm not at home for a few days. When I get back I'll try to measure the power consumption of the LNB. I'm running mine with a 21V PI, but also have a 29V so will see if I can't measure with both. It will be sometime next week at the earliest, so if someone else can do the power measurement sooner, have at it.

It is VERY nice not having the SWM-16 house heater running any longer. If I ever have to go back to it, I'll be disappointed.


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## inkahauts

damondlt said:


> I guess my next question is where is the 5 lnb version?


I really think that wont ever happen, in part because I think it won' be needed. I have a feeling we will find out in less than a year if I am right...


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## P Smith

inkahauts said:


> I really think that wont ever happen, in part because I think it won' be needed. I have a feeling we will find out in less than a year if I am right...


you mean when D14 will be up and running ...


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## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I really think that wont ever happen, in part because I think it won' be needed. I have a feeling we will find out in less than a year if I am right...


Since D14 now has its launch scheduled (by the end of December) we'll probably know in less than six months. I'm with you, I think the content on 95* and 119* will be mirrored on 99/103 (probably on RDBS) and that's why there's no support for 110/119 on this LNB. They won't need to mirror the locals on 119, because the additional spotbeam capacity will allow them to cover all remaining DMAs with HD.

After thinking about it a bit more, I think this LNB almost certainly does receive RDBS. While Entropic's EN5500 was only sampling back in April, sample quantities of a chip would be enough to conduct the type of low volume testing it sounds like was going on with the DSWM LNB over the past months. Some combination of "testing went well, we're ready", "chip is starting to be produced in volume", "D14's launch is now scheduled" caused them to finally take the covers off the DSWM LNB.

I took a lot of criticism for suggesting that they could roll out DSWM for the residential market this year, but it sounds like I made it with several months to spare  The next question is how soon they'll use the DSWM LNB exclusively for new installs. I'm sure supplies will be tight until Maxlinear and Broadcom's chips are ramped in volume later this year, and there's probably a sizeable inventory of SWM LNBs to burn off, so maybe by a year from now or so?

I'm curious when we're going to see a replacement legacy LNB capable of receiving RDBS. They don't need it yet, but once D14 is up and they light up those mirrors on 95* it'll come in quite handy to avoid the need for a second dish. Pretty sure it'll require a 5th coax.


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## P Smith

if I would participate in the new LNBF testing , we would know what chip it is using...

unfortunately the "first look" was done by nontechnical ppl who know nothing about input/output freq ranges, noise figure, gain,LOF,LO stability, LP/CP isolation, etc


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## Scott Kocourek

P Smith said:


> if I would participate in the new LNBF testing , we would know what chip it is using...
> 
> unfortunately the "first look" was done by nontechnical ppl who know nothing about input/output freq ranges, noise figure, gain,LOF,LO stability, LP/CP isolation, etc


And then it would be the last test you get to do. I understand what you want but we have to install these things like a 'normal" tech would and use them like a "normal" customer would.

Sorry you didn't get what you wanted.


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## Go Beavs

Nice job on the First Look, Scott and the test team!


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## slice1900

I've never even seen anyone post pictures of the insides of a regular SWM LNB, so I doubt we'll find out very quickly what chip it uses unless/until Entropic posts a press release talking about the new DSWM LNB using the new EN5500 or whatever. I can understand not doing a teardown for this type of testing, but no one does it even after. I think you and I and a couple others might be the only ones who care about what's inside...


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## carl6

slice1900 said:


> I've never even seen anyone post pictures of the insides of a regular SWM LNB,


It wasn't during a field trial, and it was legacy, not SWM, but I posted a number of pictures of the inside of some LNBs with an article on how to modify a 5-LNB to function like a 3-LNB so you could use it with a separate dish for 110 & 119. That was shortly after wide spread release/availability of the 5 LNB slimline (back when both the AT9 and AU9 dishes were in use) when a lot of people who were using two dishes due to line of sight issues were trying to figure out how to do that with the 5-LNB slimline. It was easy with the AT9 as it had connectors for the 110 and 119 LNBs on the side of the 99/101/103 LNB.


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## HoTat2

I'd be happy with a technical primer like what was released down south for the new LA LNBF, (DIRECTV model # SF6-LA). Which list a number of the specs. P.Smith posted. 

But for some reason DIRECTV never does that for the LNBFs used by their USA customers. Though I was hoping at least this LNB would be officially titled and/or perhaps somewhere printed on its label "Ka/Ku/BSS" or something to indicate if it is RDBS capable.

So far though, only cricket sounds on this question. 

No criticism of the FL team intended mind you ...


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## Scott Kocourek

Please refer to the new LNB by it's proper name SWM-13, calling it a DSWM only causes unnecessary confusion.


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## slice1900

Scott Kocourek said:


> Please refer to the new LNB by it's proper name SWM-13, calling it a DSWM only causes unnecessary confusion.


Someone should tell Directv to update the dish selection screen then


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## HoTat2

Scott Kocourek said:


> Please refer to the new LNB by it's proper name SWM-13, calling it a DSWM only causes unnecessary confusion.


Hey Scott;

How about calling it just as DIRECTV engineering named in the receiver setup dish selection list. As the "Slimline-3DS" or just "SL-3DS?" for short as with its predecessor the Slimline-3S or SL-3S? 

And if anyone asks the "DS" obviously stands for "*D*igital *S*WiM" as noted in parentheses next to it as a reference to the technology it's based upon

But I can see the problem of trying to avoid confusion with the DSWIM-13 switch for the DRE market.


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## Scott Kocourek

slice1900 said:


> Someone should tell Directv to update the dish selection screen then





HoTat2 said:


> Hey Scott;
> 
> How about calling it just as DIRECTV engineering named in the receiver setup dish selection list. As the "Slimline-3DS" or just "SL-3DS?" for short as with its predecessor the Slimline-3S or SL-3S?
> 
> And if anyone asks the "DS" obviously stands for "*D*igital *S*WiM" as noted in parentheses next to it as a reference to the technology it's based upon
> 
> But I can see the problem of trying to avoid confusion with the DSWIM-13 switch for the DRE market.


I know what the screen says, I took the picture. 

I also know that the device will be called a SWM-13 and calling it anything else will just be confusing in the long run.


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## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> I've never even seen anyone post pictures of the insides of a regular SWM LNB, so I doubt we'll find out very quickly what chip it uses unless/until Entropic posts a press release talking about the new DSWM LNB using the new EN5500 or whatever. I can understand not doing a teardown for this type of testing, but no one does it even after. I think you and I and a couple others might be the only ones who care about what's inside...


I did post the pictures for dish DP LNBFs ... as to the new SL-3DS, I wouldn't hesitate to spend some money and my time to tear down it, if I would stay in Bay Area this time.


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## SomeRandomIdiot

So if one needs 16 channels and the new RDBS capability, is there a Non-SWiM version of this that can be connected to a "legacy" SWiM?

It would also seem in theory that D* should relax the rules of 1 Genie per household with this lnb setup as it solves the problem of installing 2 Genies on the same SWiM channel.


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## slice1900

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> So if one needs 16 channels and the new RDBS capability, is there a Non-SWiM version of this that can be connected to a "legacy" SWiM?
> 
> It would also seem in theory that D* should relax the rules of 1 Genie per household with this lnb setup as it solves the problem of installing 2 Genies on the same SWiM channel.


There will have to be a new legacy LNB to receive RDBS, but I guess they don't need it until they actually start making use of RDBS. That could be right away after D14 is launched, in position and ready to go if the mirrors of 95* and 119* are on RDBS, or it could be a while if they don't light up the RDBS until it is actually "needed". I wonder what they'll call it, to avoid confusion with the SL3? Maybe SL3R or SL3B?

The idea of two Genies might not sound so good if it makes you exceed 13 channels, as a legacy LNB that supports RDBS from both 99 and 103 will almost certainly require a 5th coax (using flex 1 on a SWM8/SWM16/SWM32, no doubt) Anyway, there could be other reasons why Directv doesn't allow two Genies on an account that have nothing to do with number of channels consumed, so I wouldn't assume the SWM 13 LNB changes that rule.


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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> I'd be happy with a technical primer like what was released down south for the new LA LNBF, (DIRECTV model # SF6-LA). Which list a number of the specs. P.Smith posted.
> 
> But for some reason DIRECTV never does that for the LNBFs used by their USA customers.


Same thing with the SWM switches, the LA version of the SWM8 provides technical info the US models never have. Not sure why that is, maybe the equivalent of the FCC in one of those countries requires making that sort of information public?


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## Jim1023

Does anyone know if the latest AIM firmware is compatible with the SWM-13?


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## peds48

Jim1023 said:


> Does anyone know if the latest AIM firmware is compatible with the SWM-13?


Absolutely !!


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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> There will have to be a new legacy LNB to receive RDBS, but I guess they don't need it until they actually start making use of RDBS. That could be right away after D14 is launched, in position and ready to go if the mirrors of 95* and 119* are on RDBS, or it could be a while if they don't light up the RDBS until it is actually "needed". I wonder what they'll call it, to avoid confusion with the SL3? Maybe SL3R or SL3B?
> 
> The idea of two Genies might not sound so good if it makes you exceed 13 channels, as a legacy LNB that supports RDBS from both 99 and 103 *will almost certainly require a 5th coax (using flex 1 on a SWM8/SWM16/SWM32,* no doubt) Anyway, there could be other reasons why Directv doesn't allow two Genies on an account that have nothing to do with number of channels consumed, so I wouldn't assume the SWM 13 LNB changes that rule.


Two coaxes (or one twin run) needed for RB-1 and 2 to flexports 1 and 2 isn't it?

Assuming frequency stacking for L/RHCP transponder sets from 99 on one coax and 103 on the other.


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Two coaxes (or one twin run) needed for RB-1 and 2 to flexports 1 and 2 isn't it?
> 
> Assuming frequency stacking for L/RHCP transponder sets from 99 on one coax and 103 on the other.


Since there's no 110/119, RDBS for 103 could be put into that 950-1450 MHz range that's freed up on the 22 KHz coaxes. Alternatively, the 250 - 2150 MHz range leaves room for both polarities from 99 & 103 to be stacked on a single coax if only 100 MHz rather than 200 MHz guard bands are used between them. Analog SWM uses VCOs to select frequencies, there aren't any limitations about using the area that is guard banded in the current stack plan.

Can't rule out six coaxes, but a lot of MDUs installed after the 72.5* dish went away will have been installed with 5 (SL5 + 95) and it wouldn't always be easy to run a sixth. Not to mention it is bad enough to require a 5th for that small segment of residential customers who go over 13 tuners, let alone a 6th...


----------



## slice1900

This assumes Directv won't dedicate RDBS from 99 or 103 to special uses (internal, corporate customers, etc.) If they only used one of the two for regular consumer/commercial they could stick with 4, using that 110/119. :hair:


----------



## SomeRandomIdiot

slice1900 said:


> The idea of two Genies might not sound so good if it makes you exceed 13 channels, as a legacy LNB that supports RDBS from both 99 and 103 will almost certainly require a 5th coax (using flex 1 on a SWM8/SWM16/SWM32, no doubt) Anyway, there could be other reasons why Directv doesn't allow two Genies on an account that have nothing to do with number of channels consumed, so I wouldn't assume the SWM 13 LNB changes that rule.


Not assuming the SWiM 13 LNB will automatically change the rule. However, it does eliminate one of the big issues where only 1 Genie can be on a SWiM channel, which should make the change easier.


----------



## inkahauts

Yeah, I have always felt there where a bunch of things that needed to happen before they went with multiple genies allowed, and this is one small thing I think might be in favor of it...


----------



## Laxguy

wease said:


> Do you think that they might let us have 2 genies with this new lnb???


Some day........


----------



## HoTat2

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> .... It would also seem in theory that D* should relax the rules of 1 Genie per household with this lnb setup as it solves the problem of installing 2 Genies on the same SWiM channel.


I'm sorry if I missed this as a publicized problem with the Genie ....

What kind of problem is this with "two Genies taking the same SWiM channel?" 

Each Genie actually takes (or needs) 5 SWiM channels for it's 5 tuners.

Forgive me here, but I see no technical reason why the new SL-3DS LNBF should any more amenable to supporting two Genies than the current SWiM-16 is.

They appear to be non-sequiturs.


----------



## mexican-bum

HoTat2 said:


> I'm sorry if I missed this as a publicized problem with the Genie ....
> 
> What kind of problem is this with "two Genies taking the same SWiM channel?"
> 
> Each Genie actually takes (or needs) 5 SWiM channels for it's 5 tuners.
> 
> Forgive me here, but I see no technical reason why the new SL-3DS LNBF should any more amenable to supporting two Genies than the current SWiM-16 is.
> 
> They appear to be non-sequiturs.


Swm 16 install is much more difficult and probably expensive then just replacing the LNB, Not only because the 4 cables off the dish but you would need a 2nd independent cable run to the 2nd genie.


----------



## Blackloz

I know a guy that still has 2 34's on his account. He got them from a dealer the day they were in stock. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2

mexican-bum said:


> Swm 16 install is much more difficult and probably expensive then just replacing the LNB, Not only because the 4 cables off the dish but you would need a 2nd independent cable run to the 2nd genie.


Oh .... Ok;

I see now, :grin:

The misleading use of terminology was confusing me.

What it's about is the new SL-3DS LNBF will save the need and cost of a SWiM-16 where 2 Genies would have to be on separate SWiM *switches* due to their current 8 tuner limitation.


----------



## dpeters11

Blackloz said:


> I know a guy that still has 2 34's on his account. He got them from a dealer the day they were in stock.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think he's lucky his account t hasn't been audited. I know that others have been caught.


----------



## peds48

Blackloz said:


> I know a guy that still has 2 34's on his account. He got them from a dealer the day they were in stock.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





dpeters11 said:


> I think he's lucky his account t hasn't been audited. I know that others have been caught.


And since when having two 34s is something to be proud of? !rolling


----------



## dpeters11

peds48 said:


> And since when having two 34s is something to be proud of? !rolling


I'd say more so than being proud of owning two THR22s.


----------



## palmgrower

Will this improve performance over a current two wire lnb with a 16 multiswitch


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## peds48

palmgrower said:


> Will this improve performance over a current two wire lnb with a 16 multiswitch
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nope. BTW, the SWM16 requires 4 wires but you may have 2 DUAL coax cables equalling 4 wires...


----------



## HoTat2

palmgrower said:


> Will this improve performance over a current two wire lnb with a 16 multiswitch
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Unless this new LNBF is Reverse-DBS band capable. We don't know for sure.

It just makes for a much cleaner and less expensive all single wire installation when customers need 9-13 tuners.


----------



## slice1900

Actually it probably should improve performance over the old analog SWM LNB by elimating LNB "drift" issues (i.e. LNB goes out when the sun hits it) since the DSP can easily adjust for this.

Directv also has some patents suggesting DSWM LNBs will improve the installation procedure by helping direct techs quickly to the optimal alignment. No idea if that has been actually implemented, and it would of course require support in the AIM as well.


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> Would you happen to have a way to measure the power consumption of the DSWM13 LNB? I'm curious if that's the reason they limited it to only 13 channels.





carl6 said:


> I'll try to measure the power consumption of the LNB. I'm running mine with a 21V PI,


Using an Accutrac22Pro (not designed for SWM), I was able to measure 21.1 volts with a 23ma current draw. I measured at the output connector of the PI. The SWM signal was not passing back to the receivers with the Accutrac in the circuit, so I don't know if that had any effect on the measurement. Trying with another meter I have, the signal was passing, but the current draw was to low to resolve on that meter, so that suggests the 23ma is probably in the ballpark.


----------



## P Smith

suspiciously low load ... DMM would be better tool


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> suspiciously low load ... DMM would be better tool


To be clear P Smith;

Are you saying the Accutrac might adding too much series resistance to the circuit masking the true current drain requirement of the LNBF?

And a DMM (Digital Multi-Meter) would be better?


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> suspiciously low load ... DMM would be better tool


With no SWM signal coming back it is probably only powering the SL3 (Ku/Ka amps plus maybe RDBS amps as well) which would be about right for 4-5 watts.

I think it would be better to measure the draw of the PI at the plug using a Kill-o-watt, and have one or more receivers active to insure it is fully up and running. There is some excess draw due to power supply inefficiency but that's easy to correct for, and since we have similar data using a Kill-o-watt for other devices it would make for simpler comparison.

If someone can do that, also please measure with the fewest possible tuners (i.e. only a receiver or HR2x DVR connected) as well as the all your tuners active, to see if there is any difference. It may not really be worth the programming effort to idle resources not required for unused tuners, but it would be an interesting data point.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

P Smith said:


> suspiciously low load ... DMM would be better tool


Nothing suspicious there at all. The SWM-13 LNB will work with a 21V power supply.


----------



## slice1900

Stuart Sweet said:


> Nothing suspicious there at all. The SWM-13 LNB will work with a 21V power supply.


He was talking about the 23ma current draw, not the 21v, which would add up to about 0.45 watts. I read that as 230ma for some reason thinking it was about 4.5 watts and might be the LNB draw only. But clearly it was an invalid measurement.


----------



## P Smith

I've not seen LNBF consuming less 150 mA.


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## Stuart Sweet

Then you haven't seen this one, apparently.


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## slice1900

Stuart Sweet said:


> Then you haven't seen this one, apparently.


I didn't think there was much improvement possible in the LNB portion, because the power draw is for the amplifiers. Are you saying the entire LNB + DSWM draws at or less than 150ma - i.e. 3 watts at 21v? That would imply some major changes in the LNB itself, even if it had a magic DSWM chip that required 0 watts


----------



## carl6

P Smith said:


> suspiciously low load ... DMM would be better tool


My first measurement was with a metering device (similar to a DMM) which measures voltage, current, wattage, etc., inline with the DC draw. It will measure to 0.1 amp, anywhere from 1 to 60VDC. It showed no DC current draw (amps or watts), however the LNB was powered and I was watching a picture from an HR34 while doing that measurement.

My second measurement was with the Accutrac because I didn't get a measurement with the first meter. The Accutrac reflected very low current flow, but the SWM signal was not passing as I wasn't getting signal to the HR34 with the Accutrac inline.

At your suggestion, I placed kilowatt meter in the AC feed to the 21V PI, and it is showing 9 watts AC power draw at 120VAC. Disconnecting the LNB, the PI showed 0 watts draw. With LNB connected and the line to STBs disconnected, it showed 8.9 watts. When I reconnected the STB line, it momentarily dropped to 7.8 watts, then immediately returned to 9 watts. I did the latter twice, and it behaved the same both times, dropping briefly to 7.9 watts, then returning to 9 watts upon connecting the STB line.

I don't have the ability to do any other measurements.


----------



## P Smith

Thank for the measures,so roughly we see the current is 0.5 A (9/21). Pretty close to typical figures 400...450 mA.


----------



## nsykes

So forgive my ignorance but I just want to confirm something. I could go straight off of the SWM-13, inside the house to a 4 split like the one pictured.






Power inserter plugged into the red output, my Genie HR34 off of 1 output and my HR24 off another and still have one left over for future use? If so they are making things insanely easy now!








Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## HoTat2

nsykes said:


> So forgive my ignorance but I just want to confirm something. I could go straight off of the SWM-13, inside the house to a 4 split like the one pictured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByDBSTalk1410932739.787393.jpg Power inserter plugged into the red output, my Genie HR34 off of 1 output and my HR24 off another and still have one left over for future use? If so they are making things insanely easy now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ImageUploadedByDBSTalk1410932739.787393.jpg
> 
> Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


Correct ...


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Thank for the measures,so roughly we see the current is 0.5 A (9/21). Pretty close to typical figures 400...450 mA.


Just wonder what's preventing carl6's instruments from really registering any DC current?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

I wish it's available right NOW. Could use one for my cottage. Signed up for mover's plan, expecting to have all my receivers connected here but idiot's work order included only the Genie, HR24 and one H25, not the rest I have. Apparently DirecTV assumed that that's all I'll have here and the rest remains home (main house 15 miles away) for whenever I go home. I even told them that I'm bringing all receivers here because I live here full time for the summer (or 6 months). No point now since I only got what, two months remaining living here before I close this place up for the winter.


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## palmgrower

When will it be available for sale?


----------



## HoTat2

palmgrower said:


> When will it be available for sale?


Unknown so far;

Its going to be the usual routine of installations in only a few test markets first before a national roll-out to new customer installations or for release to retailers for sale to existing ones.

Like other ODU related equipment Directv will not sell it directly.

Wonder if the test markets will be those under RB-2A's spotbeams from 103 of Seattle, WA., El Paso, TX., SLC, UT., and Alaska? Then we would know for sure it was RDBS capable?


----------



## slice1900

carl6 said:


> My first measurement was with a metering device (similar to a DMM) which measures voltage, current, wattage, etc., inline with the DC draw. It will measure to 0.1 amp, anywhere from 1 to 60VDC. It showed no DC current draw (amps or watts), however the LNB was powered and I was watching a picture from an HR34 while doing that measurement.
> 
> My second measurement was with the Accutrac because I didn't get a measurement with the first meter. The Accutrac reflected very low current flow, but the SWM signal was not passing as I wasn't getting signal to the HR34 with the Accutrac inline.
> 
> At your suggestion, I placed kilowatt meter in the AC feed to the 21V PI, and it is showing 9 watts AC power draw at 120VAC. Disconnecting the LNB, the PI showed 0 watts draw. With LNB connected and the line to STBs disconnected, it showed 8.9 watts. When I reconnected the STB line, it momentarily dropped to 7.8 watts, then immediately returned to 9 watts. I did the latter twice, and it behaved the same both times, dropping briefly to 7.9 watts, then returning to 9 watts upon connecting the STB line.
> 
> I don't have the ability to do any other measurements.


Thanks for the measurements!

I wish I knew the power draw of the DSWM13 switch, as that would allow determining for sure if the SWM 13 LNB uses the EN5500. However, based on that rather modest draw you measure I think it is very likely it is. If it uses the EN5500, I think it is nearly 100% certain it can receive RDBS.

Here's another question for those "early adopters". Did anyone conduct their testing using two dishes, one with the old legacy or SWM LNB, another with the new SWM 13 LNB for a side by side comparison? I'm curious if anyone noticed any difference at all in the onset of rain fade. I remember VOS posting at one time based on his experience in "high end" LNBs that Directv's LNB could have its resistance to rain fade improved somewhat with a better design (using log amps or VGAs IIRC) so I wonder if they made any "improvements" to the KaKuRDBS LNB that might have proven more cost effective today than when the original KaKu LNB was designed almost 10 years ago.


----------



## carl6

I replaced an SWM 5LNB with the SWM13. Prior to that I was using a legacy 5LNB with an SWM16 (all of which is still in place, just not in use at the moment). But I very rarely see rain fade, so I doubt I would be able to provide any kind of comparison.

As to why I was not able to measure DC current with my first meter, I suspect it might have been because of the other signals on the line, and it might have thought it was not a DC draw. Just speculating, that meter isn't designed for in-circuit testing of something with rf on it, just pure and simple DC.


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## palmgrower

Being in South Florida, the rain fade this year has been a little worse, if it does reduce rain fade at all I'm purchasing one upon release


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## HoTat2

palmgrower said:


> Being in South Florida, the rain fade this year has been a little worse, if it does reduce rain fade at all I'm purchasing one upon release
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Nah ... it won't

.
Rain fades are deep chasms in received signals strength.

And just having an LNBF that uses digital filtering techniques to reduce the SWiM carrier spacing so as to fit more channels in a given cable bandwidth does noting to help RF.


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## palmgrower

Shucks


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## P Smith

palmgrower said:


> Shucks


just install 2m dish, it will help reduce rain fade


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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Nah ... it won't
> 
> .
> Rain fades are deep chasms in received signals strength.
> 
> And just having an LNBF that uses digital filtering techniques to reduce the SWiM carrier spacing so as to fit more channels in a given cable bandwidth does noting to help RF.


If all it is is the same exact LNB design as before with different SWM technology, yes. But if they made other changes/improvements when they added RDBS support, it may help with rain fade. Certainly won't make rain fade go away, but it might raise the threshold somewhat for where rain fade hits. That's why I asked if anyone had run both side by side to see if it made any difference.


----------



## palmgrower

You have my attention, I disassembled and sold my 14' Paraclipse Islander , which 2 meter do you speak of?


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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> If all it is is the same exact LNB design as before with different SWM technology, yes. But if they made other changes/improvements when they added RDBS support, it may help with rain fade. Certainly won't make rain fade go away, but it might raise the threshold somewhat for where rain fade hits. That's why I asked if anyone had run both side by side to see if it made any difference.


RFs are typically around 20-40 db signal drop-offs.

So what really meaningful impact can a few db improvement in an LNBF's noise figure or some other, have upon that?


----------



## P Smith

palmgrower said:


> You have my attention, I disassembled and sold my *14' Paraclipse Islander* , which 2 meter do you speak of?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


As I recall, it was mesh type ... right ? Nay. You'll need to find "spoon" kind of C-band dish for build own with much better Ka/Ku reception.

And yes, 14' [4.2M] spoon reflector would be very nice base to make custom DTV dish (my past experience cover 1m [3.3'] dish with three LNBF: KaKu LNBF and 110/119W, I would do again for 4.2M but my time for the experiments is gone)


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## palmgrower

Build own? I'm too old, I had hoped Wineguard would introduce a modern signalmaster.


----------



## palmgrower

Spoon? Are you referring to an elliptical dish? My old Paraclipse locked onto to every dbs satellite with its modified feedhorn, it just wasn't practical after the second dish was in orbit


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## P Smith

Paraclipce was prime-focus type... my custom build used offset 1M dish.


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> RFs are typically around 20-40 db signal drop-offs.
> 
> So what really meaningful impact can a few db improvement in an LNBF's noise figure or some other, have upon that?


I was thinking more along the lines of improving the LNB's initial amplification. VOS mentioned in the past that he felt Directv's LNB would have better resistance to rain fade if it used log amps. He knows a lot more about this stuff than I do, so I won't even try to explain what his reasoning might be. Perhaps he'll see this and be willing to expand on it.

Clearly you can't prevent rain fade - even a 10 meter dish can't totally eliminate the possibility. What you can do is increase the amount of rain (well, atmospheric moisture) it takes to cause a signal loss. You'll still have rain fade if it rains hard enough, but if you were able to go from x minutes of rain fade a year to x/2 minutes of rain fade a year, that would be an improvement, no? Even a mere 10% reduction in "rain fade minutes per year" would mean that a few occasions of brief rain fade might not happen at all because you'd no longer dip below the threshold of signal loss.

As I understand it, about 4db or so of rain fade is caused by increase in noise level of the LNB to the background temperature (i.e. whatever the LNB's normal noise temperature is to ~300K noise temperature) The remainder is caused by signal attenuation. As you say, 20-40 db of attenuation. Obviously you can't merely crank up the initial gain by 40db to "fix" the problem, because at that point the signal is no doubt below the noise floor. But there's surely a fair amount of room for improvement in the KaKu LNB design. Much of that improvement will remain untapped for cost considerations, but maybe technological improvements over the past decade would make what would have been too expensive to do when the KaKu was designed possible for a reasonable cost today.

Or perhaps Directv has made other changes to the LNB that don't improve its ability to withstand rain fade at all, but improve it other ways. Maybe something that makes it easier to aim, so that in cooperation with AIM firmware or maybe even firmware in the receivers (for all those RV/tailgate people struggling to aim their own dishes without the benefit of an AIM) it directs the user towards the ideal alignment.

They might not even be "customer friendly" changes but something that helps their business. If they embed a serial number in each one, the activation could instead of linking receiver to card, link receiver to card to dish, to prevent account stacking.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> They might not even be "customer friendly" changes but something that helps their business. If they embed a serial number in each one, the activation could instead of *linking receiver to card, link receiver to card to dish, to prevent account stacking.*


That would def piss off a lot of customers!!!


----------



## carl6

slice1900 said:


> They might not even be "customer friendly" changes but something that helps their business. If they embed a serial number in each one, the activation could instead of linking receiver to card, link receiver to card to dish, to prevent account stacking.





peds48 said:


> That would def piss off a lot of customers!!!


I heard quite some time back that SWM in and of itself contained a technology that could either require all receivers on an account/at a location to be on the same SWM, or at least permit detecting whether or not they were. I don't know that is in fact true, but did hear it. I have never heard of a situation where this was used to identify or check an account suspected of account stacking, but it sure could be if in fact that technology exists.


----------



## P Smith

carl6 said:


> I heard quite some time back that SWM in and of itself contained a technology that could either require all receivers on an account/at a location to be on the same SWM, or at least permit detecting whether or not they were. I don't know that is in fact true, but did hear it. I have never heard of a situation where this was used to identify or check an account suspected of account stacking, but it sure could be if in fact that technology exists.


I wouldn't be surprise if DTV getting all info enough to conclude compliance or violation.

Dish's devices sending XML reports each day, what are include models of sat components, ports' configuration, serial numbers of LNBF and much more. Shamelessly naming it as "stb_heath"... hypocrisy.


----------



## slice1900

carl6 said:


> I heard quite some time back that SWM in and of itself contained a technology that could either require all receivers on an account/at a location to be on the same SWM, or at least permit detecting whether or not they were. I don't know that is in fact true, but did hear it. I have never heard of a situation where this was used to identify or check an account suspected of account stacking, but it sure could be if in fact that technology exists.


That would only work for customers who have few enough tuners to fit on a SWM LNB. Once you go beyond 8, or 13 when this new LNB has been released, you have to have multiple SWM switches. Wouldn't most stackers (at least the ones Directv would prefer to stop) have enough tuners to require multiple SWM switches if they were all at one location?

To catch them I suppose you need support in the legacy LNB as well. It would need a serial number and a way to communicate that serial number to the attached SWM switches.

Come to think of it, maybe one of the reasons they don't want to allow multiple Genies on an account is account stacking concerns? i.e., if they believe many customers who'd get multiple Genies would be stackers.


----------



## Jacob Braun

I haven't really weighed in here, but I will tell you that with my SL3D-S my signal is a few points higher across the board from my 5LNB with SWM-16. After several months of having it installed I've noticed rain fade is almost nonexistent for me. It's pretty great. Plus I got to get rid of all the extra cabling.


----------



## P Smith

How much you did pay for the LNBF ?


----------



## palmgrower

Is it for S



P Smith said:


> How much you did pay for the LNBF ?


Is it for sale?


----------



## P Smith

palmgrower said:


> Is it for S
> 
> Is it for sale?


almface:


----------



## palmgrower

When will it be for sale? :coffee


----------



## P Smith

soon - watch the thread for future announcement


----------



## JosephB

Maybe I missed it but I think I didn't see anything about compatibility. I'm assuming since no one has said anything about it, this LNB is compatible with *any* SWM capable receiver?



carl6 said:


> I heard quite some time back that SWM in and of itself contained a technology that could either require all receivers on an account/at a location to be on the same SWM, or at least permit detecting whether or not they were. I don't know that is in fact true, but did hear it. I have never heard of a situation where this was used to identify or check an account suspected of account stacking, but it sure could be if in fact that technology exists.


At the very least, the DECA network created by putting everything on SWM would allow such checking, which would be the easiest way to do it (though, with effort DECA/IP networking verification would be defeatable)


----------



## peds48

JosephB said:


> , this LNB is compatible with *any* SWM capable receiver?


Correct


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> Correct


Do you have any information whether it is listed as compatible with H20s? I'd expect it to work, but as they haven't had a software update in a year they have no specific support for DSWM. If I had to bet I'd say H20s can only use half the channels.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> Do you have any information whether it is listed as compatible with H20s? I'd expect it to work, but as they haven't had a software update in a year they have no specific support for DSWM. If I had to bet I'd say H20s can only use half the channels.


Good point, I keep forgetting about the "red haired child" of DirecTV®.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I do not believe this LNB can be used with H20s.


----------



## JosephB

That would be good information to have in a review. Also, I'm assuming it's compatible with the same DECA equipment as well?


----------



## HoTat2

JosephB said:


> That would be good information to have in a review. Also, I'm assuming it's compatible with the same DECA equipment as well?


Sure, it's green labeled;

But a SWiM LNBF never had much relevance to a DECA network anyhow.

Outside of being DECA or more accurate "MoCA" compatible as indicated by its "green" labeling. Meaning it just has an internal BSF to prevent the strong MoCA networking signal from entering its circuitry and potentially causing problems.


----------



## JosephB

HoTat2 said:


> Sure, it's green labeled;
> 
> But a SWiM LNBF never had much relevance to a DECA network anyhow.
> 
> Outside of being DECA or more accurate "MoCA" compatible as indicated by its "green" labeling. Meaning it just has an internal BSF to prevent the strong MoCA networking signal from entering its circuitry and potentially causing problems.


It would if it used any different frequencies that interfered with the DECA/MoCA frequencies. Obviously that would have been extremely unlikely given how important that aspect of SWiM is and how this LNB (apparently) works with (most) existing SWM receivers.


----------



## slice1900

Stuart Sweet said:


> I do not believe this LNB can be used with H20s.


I realize you wouldn't have any H20s laying around to actually test this, maybe someone else does? It would be good to know whether it doesn't work at all, or can only use half the channels.

Obviously I'll never get a SWM 13 LNB, but if something made me want to / have to swap out my SWM16s for some future DSWM switch it would be good to know whether I could keep using my H20s. I plan to do so until Directv comes out with a better solution for OTA than the AM21, or I have no choice.


----------



## HoTat2

JosephB said:


> It would if it used any different frequencies that interfered with the DECA/MoCA frequencies. Obviously that would have been extremely unlikely given how important that aspect of SWiM is and how this LNB (apparently) works with (most) existing SWM receivers.


If this SL-3DS digital LNBF uses the same frequencies as the DSWM-13 module for the DRE market does, and I see no reason why it wouldn't. It's signals operate above 950 MHz the same as with analog SWIM.

Thus is also well above the DIRECTV MoCA network signal E band of 475-625 MHz.

In addition as a testament to the superior frequency stability of digital filtering and signal processing. The DSWMs actually pack more SWiM channels in a narrower bandwidth than the analog ones do for less channels.

DSWM:

Guide Channel 974 MHz

Ch. 1) 1025.03 MHz
Ch. 2) 1076.06 MHz
Ch. 3) 1127.09 MHz
Ch. 4) 1178.12 MHz
Ch. 5) 1229.15 MHz
Ch. 6) 1280.18 MHz
Ch. 7) 1331.21 MHz
Ch. 8) 1382.24 MHz
Ch. 9) 1433.27 MHz
Ch. 10) 1484.30 MHz
Ch. 11) 1535.33 MHz
Ch. 12) 1586.36 MHz
Ch. 13) 1637.39 MHz

2.3 MHz FSK control channel

Center-center spacing 51.03 MHz
Guard bandwidth 11.03 Mhz.

ASWM:

Channel Guide 974 MHz

Ch. 1) 1076.06 MHz
Ch. 2) 1178.12 MHz
Ch. 3) 1280.18 MHz
Ch. 4) 1382.24 MHz
Ch. 5) 1484.3 MHz
Ch. 6) 1586.36 MHz
Ch. 7) 1688.42 MHz
Ch. 8) 1790.48 MHz

2.3 MHz FSK control channel.

Center-to-center carrier spacing 102.06 MHz
Guard bandwidth 62.06 MHz


----------



## slice1900

Your guard bands look a bit narrow there for DSWM.

ASWM operates on transponders as if they were 40 MHz wide because LNBs frequency inaccuracy from the LNB and the VCOs in the SWM can offset the signal a couple MHz. So the minimum guard band will be as you show.

However, the DSWM operates on the actual 36 MHz wide transponder since it is able to calculate and adjust for LNB offset. So the guard band there is 4 MHz larger than you list. As a side benefit, needing to replace LNBs due to temperature related drift should become a thing of the past.


----------



## texasbrit

I have an H20 and will try it out this weekend....


----------



## scottb8888

Any news on the general availability of the SWM13??


----------



## P Smith

Just little bit of patience and you'll read reports of lucky owners of the switch. Asking "are we there?" will not speed the process...


----------



## Laxguy

Thank you, 'Mr. Smith' for that incredible avuncular insight! Good to know!


----------



## P Smith

you're welcome, boy, khmmm, mr LAXguy


----------



## slice1900

texasbrit said:


> I have an H20 and will try it out this weekend....


Were you able to try it out?


----------



## scottb8888

I could use one of these. Can I get one anywhere??


----------



## HoTat2

scottb8888 said:


> I could use one of these. Can I get one anywhere??


When its released for distribution by retailers, yes.

But that won't be for a while yet....

Initially it will be only be available for use by DIRECTV techs./installers of course.

Note: That doesn't mean some won't get a hold to these and sell them early on ebay or some other.


----------



## P Smith

yeah, watch eBay auctions ...


----------



## texasbrit

slice1900 said:


> Were you able to try it out?


Not yet, I've been working all hours. Probably tomorrow.


----------



## palmgrower

Ebay and Craigslist are empty, so far


----------



## CopyCat

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, to expand on Gary's post, best way to be totally sure (if you are a little handy with an MS Excel spreadsheet) is to go here and download the latest "Domestic" TPN map.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/200951-transponder-maps-domestic-latinam-data-refresh-932014/
> 
> Then for the sheet under the "CONUS" tab, enable editing and then select the filter option.
> 
> Under the "Satellite" column drop-down box select only "[email protected]" entry. See if there is any channel listed in the results there that you want.
> 
> Then go to the "LIL" tab and find your local market and make sure you have no SD locals coming from [email protected]
> 
> If the answer is no to both of these questions, then you don't need a Slimline-5 LNB.
> 
> NOTE: If you want early-bird holiday music, be advised that does begin on the 119 satellite and therefore will require an SL-5 LNB.


Thanks, I'm a little late reading this as I had no need for the SWM 13 LNB until I ordered my updated DVR (Genie) and decided I was not turning in the HR24s, thus needed more than SWM8.

BTW- No SWM-13s on the truck in the low country, had to install a SWM-16. They do have HR44-700s on the truck.


----------



## texasbrit

texasbrit said:


> Not yet, I've been working all hours. Probably tomorrow.


 Well I got out my H20 and it's not working at all, won't even power up, so I still don't know the answer to the H20/SWM13 question.


----------



## loveshockey

Hmm...if the clients were updated to allow this, could this equipment allow one Genie and three clients to ALL do PIP?

Or is that a hardware limitation of the any of the equipment?


----------



## slice1900

texasbrit said:


> Well I got out my H20 and it's not working at all, won't even power up, so I still don't know the answer to the H20/SWM13 question.


Oh well, thanks for trying!


----------



## HoTat2

loveshockey said:


> Hmm...if the clients were updated to allow this, could this equipment allow one Genie and three clients to ALL do PIP?
> 
> Or is that a hardware limitation of the any of the equipment?


Perhaps it's a hardware limitation of the equipment for lack of PIP on the clients.

Whatever the case, the use of a DSWiM LNBF is a non-sequitur to that capability.


----------



## jimmie57

loveshockey said:


> Hmm...if the clients were updated to allow this, could this equipment allow one Genie and three clients to ALL do PIP?
> 
> Or is that a hardware limitation of the any of the equipment?


This is just a guess on my part since I neither have a Genie and clients and I am not a technician.
It would seem to me that since the Genie can send a picture to 3 clients at a time and play something on itself that it is not the problem.
I think the problem lies in the client and it can only handle 1 signal at a time. If this were redesigned to receive 2 signals at a time it could maybe then do the PIP. Once that is accomplished that would then mean that the Genie would have to be able to output 6 feeds to the clients and 2 for itself or the number of clients would have to be reduced.


----------



## Go Beavs

While technically feasible, I think the whole client PIP thing screws up the balance of client connectivity and Genie functionality.

The genies support 3 clients on live tv as well as watching and recording live tv locally for a total of 5 channels. PIP on a client would suck up a channel that is available (or in use) for another client or the Genie itself. Also, it would probably increase call volume for CSRs who would have trouble explaining things to the average sub.

It's just easier to limit PIP to the the Genie.


----------



## inkahauts

I would maybe say if they had pip on clients they'd simply need to set it up so the genie always new only one location could do pip at a time. Done. And I wish that was the case myself.


----------



## loveshockey

Go Beavs said:


> While technically feasible, I think the whole client PIP thing screws up the balance of client connectivity and Genie functionality.
> 
> The genies support 3 clients on live tv as well as watching and recording live tv locally for a total of 5 channels. PIP on a client would suck up a channel that is available (or in use) for another client or the Genie itself. Also, it would probably increase call volume for CSRs who would have trouble explaining things to the average sub.
> 
> It's just easier to limit PIP to the the Genie.


But with 13 tuners, you could have 5 for the Genie and run PIP on 4 clients at the same time, right?

Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


----------



## longrider

loveshockey said:


> But with 13 tuners, you could have 5 for the Genie and run PIP on 4 clients at the same time, right?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


No, because the client does not have a tuner. The client just receives a video stream from the Genie, tuning is done in the Genie. I dont know if the 5 tuners is a technical limitation of some kind or if it was just a design decision but 5 is your limit.


----------



## slice1900

longrider said:


> No, because the client does not have a tuner. The client just receives a video stream from the Genie, tuning is done in the Genie. I dont know if the 5 tuners is a technical limitation of some kind or if it was just a design decision but 5 is your limit.


The number of tuners in the Genie is based on the chip(s) used in it. My understanding is that the Genie contains two 3 tuner chips, for a total of 6 tuners, with one used by the guide, leaving the five it supports. There was nothing stopping Directv from putting three of the 3 tuner chips in the Genie for a total of 8 tuners (plus one for the guide) which the old SWM would have supported. It would have cost more, run hotter, and most people are more than happy with 5 tuners, so that's probably why they ended up where they did.

The current batch of chips support up to 6 tuners, so a similarly designed updated Genie could support 11 tuners for the end user. Maxlinear has a chip that tunes 16 cable channels at once and other that tunes 24 (both are intended for DOCSIS 3.0 cable modems, not cable DVRs) but it could probably be adapted for satellite if there was demand for such a thing. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a Genie that supports 11 let alone 23 tuners, because the number of Directv customers who might think 5 tuners is "too few" is probably pretty small.

I suppose if they wanted to support two tuners being dedicated to a single client for PIP on two live channels, 5 starts to look like not nearly enough, so it depends on what capabilities they think are important to address. I'll bet adding the ability for clients to display one live and one recorded channel in PIP would satisfy most of the demand for PIP on clients. That could be done without requiring the Genie to support additional tuners.


----------



## mexican-bum

Looks like someone is selling them on ebay, $100 a pop though......

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Directv-swm3-13-tuner-lnb-new-3d1lwbr0-01-swm-16-8-/181564620821?pt=US_Satellite_LNB_Downconverters&hash=item2a46184015


----------



## damondlt

mexican-bum said:


> Looks like someone is selling them on ebay, $100 a pop though......
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Directv-swm3-13-tuner-lnb-new-3d1lwbr0-01-swm-16-8-/181564620821?pt=US_Satellite_LNB_Downconverters&hash=item2a46184015


At least it's free shipping.
I bet Solid signal will cost more than that.


----------



## palmgrower

Why, would Solid Signal cost more?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## damondlt

Because they charge $99 for a swim 8
http://www.solidsignal.com/m/product.aspx?p=SWM-8


----------



## palmgrower

But a swm3 upgrade kit is only $60, and since the multi switch is built in doesn't logic indicate a cheaper cost. A bare swm3 is only $39. A bare swm13 ....$49? Maybe?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## palmgrower

I can hope it becomes mainstream and reasonable by Christmas 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cpalmer2k

I made a lower (but reasonable) offer on one and it was accepted. I'm happy with the purchase. Considering those with SWM-8's would have to purchase a legacy LNB, cable it, and buy a SWM-16.. I think the price I offered was in line.


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## damondlt

I paid $50 for a swim 16 brand new with PI off Ebay.


----------



## jimmie57

This listing on Ebay includes the LNB, a 2 way splitter and 2 4 way splitters and a power inserter. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Directv-swm3-13-tuner-lnb-new-3d1lwbr0-01-swm-16-8-/181564620821?pt=US_Satellite_LNB_Downconverters&hash=item2a46184015

My question is: Even if you bought this, is there a software release with a satellite setup that will operate it ?


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## carl6

Current software handles the SWM13.


----------



## palmgrower

I wonder if my reasonable offer was as reasonable as yours


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cpalmer2k

And they're sold out... Lol wonder if all four buyers are in this thread.


----------



## peds48

palmgrower said:


> Why, would Solid Signal cost more?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Because the pay retail price, not fallen off the truck price.


----------



## damondlt

Fallen off the truck price is better. Amazon is not all that expensive either. 
Most of them Ebay sales are from satellite distribution sales.
So they are not all stolen as you are implying.


----------



## scottb8888

Got one! A bit less than the asking price. Anybody really need this? Send me a message. For me it's a nice to have but don't need it yet.

As I understand, this is an easy install. :righton:


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## P Smith

Scott, would you donate it for tear-down and posting results here?


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## scottb8888

P Smith said:


> Scott, would you donate it for tear-down and posting results here?


Not sure what that is?


----------



## Go Beavs

He's asking if you would send it to him (for free) so he can tear it apart and analyze it, then post his findings here.


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## mexican-bum

Looks like he has more.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171510716214?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


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## damondlt

Now Mr smith can buy his own and tear it apart.


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## scottb8888

yup


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## P Smith

don't worry, I'll return it in working condition
buying it is not smart idea as in Europe no DTV service


----------



## peds48

damondlt said:


> Fallen off the truck price is better. Amazon is not all that expensive either.
> Most of them Ebay sales are from satellite distribution sales.
> So they are not all stolen as you are implying.


While they are not all stolen, selling an LNB for $35 (just a number) while legitimate dealers must sell for $60, it does makes you wonder where they are getting it from&#8230;.


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## longrider

picture from sale:










Hmmmm... Very convenient that the tag that was around the connector is pulled off and just 'happens' to be laying upside down over that part of the label that has a serial number...


----------



## damondlt

peds48 said:


> While they are not all stolen, selling an LNB for $35 (just a number) while legitimate dealers must sell for $60, it does makes you wonder where they are getting it from&#8230;.


Doesn't make me wonder anything.


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## scottb8888

So, can we telly looking if it is a 13? I guess I will find out Monday when mine arrives!


----------



## mexican-bum

longrider said:


> picture from sale:
> 
> Hmmmm... Very convenient that the tag that was around the connector is pulled off and just 'happens' to be laying upside down over that part of the label that has a serial number...


Does directv use that serial # for anything? would they even be able to track it? Just curious


----------



## HoTat2

scottb8888 said:


> So, can we telly looking if it is a 13? I guess I will find out Monday when mine arrives!


Yes;

No other DIRECTV LNB physically looks like the DSWiM one.


----------



## cpalmer2k

HoTat2 said:


> Yes;
> 
> No other DIRECTV LNB physically looks like the DSWiM one.


The "top number" on the label also matches the number on the label of the SWM-13 LNB in the first post on this thread.... the "First Look" test model


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## dpeters11

What tools are needed to swap a SWM-3 with a SWM-13? I have enough issues with heights than to get up there and need a different screwdriver or a torch


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## peds48

damondlt said:


> Doesn't make me wonder anything.


I guess you are "different"

Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

mexican-bum said:


> Does directv use that serial # for anything? would they even be able to track it? Just curious


yes, they can be track

Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


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## Laxguy

Makes a lot of sense, especially if, as I read recently, there are a significant number of people "sharing" one account. Good move!


----------



## inkahauts

longrider said:


> picture from sale:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmm... Very convenient that the tag that was around the connector is pulled off and just 'happens' to be laying upside down over that part of the label that has a serial number...


Used to work / run retail. We had our LP team buy some things on eBay that we though might have been stolen from us to track down who was stealing. It was an inside guy and he ended up in jail.


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## mexican-bum

peds48 said:


> yes, they can be track
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


Cool, do you installers scan the bar codes when installing them? Also if stolen could directv see it from a receiver call back? Just curious as if I bought one would they be able to tell if stolen if I self install. Hate to by one on eBay and create a headache for myself since swm16 is working fine.


----------



## cpalmer2k

peds48 said:


> yes, they can be track
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


They can track it to the installer that it was shipped to... or dealer/distributor maybe. I'm calling BS on them tracking it to a house though. That be the case too many people would've been shut off by now.


----------



## zuf

dpeters11 said:


> What tools are needed to swap a SWM-3 with a SWM-13? I have enough issues with heights than to get up there and need a different screwdriver or a torch


I've changed my LNB a couple times and the tools I used each time were a Phillips screwdriver and a 9mm nut driver at the dish to change out the LNB itself (I found it easier to reach the screw with a right-angle screwdriver) and a 7/16" end wrench to loosen the RG6 cable connection.


----------



## peds48

mexican-bum said:


> Cool, do you installers scan the bar codes when installing them?
> 
> Also if stolen could directv see it from a receiver call back? Just curious as if I bought one would they be able to tell if stolen if I self install. Hate to by one on eBay and create a headache for myself since swm16 is working fine.


Yes, and no

the reason to scan barcode for installers, is for DIRECTV® to know what LNB you have. If there is a wide spread issue, they can proactively service those customers if need be. This is from that time there was an LNB that stop working at 0 degrees.


----------



## mexican-bum

cpalmer2k said:


> They can track it to the installer that it was shipped to... or dealer/distributor maybe. I'm calling BS on them tracking it to a house though. That be the case too many people would've been shut off by now.


Ok, thanks for the info.


----------



## peds48

zuf said:


> (I found it easier to reach the screw with a right-angle screwdriver)


your screws are upside down. The nut should be facing up NOT down, contrary to popular belief


----------



## zuf

Well that would make it a whole lot easier! If I find myself swapping it again, I'll correct it. I've swapped my LNB twice now, and both times I put the screws back the way I found them. Thanks for the insight.


----------



## peds48

zuf said:


> Well that would make it a whole lot easier! If I find myself swapping it again, I'll correct it. I've swapped my LNB twice now, and both times I put the screws back the way I found them. Thanks for the insight.


Dont worry, you are not the only one. I wish all the installed knew this, even "seasoned" ones


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> While they are not all stolen, selling an LNB for $35 (just a number) while legitimate dealers must sell for $60, it does makes you wonder where they are getting it from&#8230;.


eBay sellers undercutting dealers doesn't sound unusual to me. If you buy from a dealer they'll offer some support, have overhead of maintaining a storefront, employees, web site, etc. eBay sellers, except for the big operations, are typically run out of a house, with maybe a storage unit for inventory. With eBay sellers you buy and it is up to you to know what you're buying and make it work, they aren't going to provide tech support. They can get by with minimal markup, a fraction of what dealers must make to support their overhead.

Most dealers buy in lower volumes so they less of a quantity discount from wholesale. The eBay guys can probably find a way around that, piggybacking off someone else's large order, or buying "leftovers" if someone else buys a large lot to get a discount. For example, let's say you need 250 of something that you sell for $50/ea. You can buy them for $40/ea if you buy 100 of them, or $30/ea if you buy 1000 of them. So you buy 1000 of them and unload the 750 you don't need for $28/ea, giving you a cost of $36/ea instead of $40/ea on the 250 you keep.

Given that the SWM 13 LNB is still in limited release, who knows where these came from. Makes it more likely there was something shady going on. Even if Directv has the ability to track customers who end up with these, I can't believe they'd go after the customers. They can search eBay just like anyone else, so if they want to go after the sellers they can buy one themselves. Be a stupid move to go after your customers, especially when they aren't hurting anything.

If they had to recall the SWM 13 LNB they could probably put something in the receiver firmware to check if it is using a SWM 13 LNB with a serial number in the recall range and either contact Directv (if the receiver is on the internet) or pop up a message to the user asking them to call Directv if not. But if there's no recall, why would they care about a handful of people buying SWM 13 LNBs off eBay? Directv gives them out for free, it is a victimless crime when you think about it.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> eBay sellers undercutting dealers doesn't sound unusual to me.


True, if they undercut by a few dollars. But when the difference is 50% or more&#8230;.it makes you wonder&#8230;.

Right now, SS is selling SWM16 for $105, same guy sells SWM for $44, hmmmm. It makes you wonder why SS does not get the SWM16 from the same "truck" as this guy&#8230;. Points to ponder&#8230;.


----------



## damondlt

Makes me wonder why SS charges $105 for a product that everyone else charges less than $60 for.

Look Amazon.com. must be stolen.  
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003Z8TEF6?cache=f8be619e97633fbea2270c67f1ca9251π=SX200_QL40&qid=1414056543&sr=8-1#ref=mp_s_a_1_1


----------



## dpeters11

Solid Signal used to charge $400 for a SWM16. Did DirecTV or the manufacturer drop the wholesale price that significantly?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Wow. I had to get one. Don't need it right now but at that price I put it on the shelf until I need one. 

Mike


----------



## cpalmer2k

A lot of of this stuff comes from "new system" installs. 

Case in point... The house I moved into was built in 2006 and had the slimline dish but a legacy install (with just a normal switch, no SWM). I bought my own SWM-16 (off eBay of course) because the local dealer I've known for years wanted to charge full price for it. He comes out and installs everything and I sign off on the paperwork. He took the old slimline dish with him... now that can be "sold" to another customer... probably a stacker, but that wasn't my concern. The install paperwork also had him installing a SWM-8, yet I had my own already. So now he's got a dish and a SWM-8 he can sell that technically are already paid for. I suspect these 13's are coming in somewhat of the same fashion. 

Unless the dealer price is low enough on them that he can afford to sell them at the price he is. 

If D* or any reputable dealer would make this item available I'd glad have paid $$ for it to them directly.


----------



## carl6

I would expect two possible uses for being able to track an LNB. First as noted, to identify impacted customers if a defect is found in a production batch. Second, it can help identify account stacking.

Maybe, and this is a stretch, to help identify a subcontractor (or even on a smaller scale an installer) who has an excessive amount of "lost/stolen/damaged" inventory (stuff that "falls off a truck"). But the economics just aren't there for that to make good business sense on a large scale.


----------



## buist

Has anybody heard anything yet about what the test markets for this will be?

Thanks,
Tim


----------



## slice1900

Just look at the range of prices on Amazon. They sell them for $49.99, but have third party sellers with prices from $39.99 to $292.50 (and you don't even get free shipping at that price!) Sonora sells SWM16s for $300 (discounted from $375) So Solid Signal may be higher than what you pay on eBay, but they've probably got one of the better prices you'll see from a full service dealer.

Amazon isn't direct selling SWM16s that "fell off the truck", they're only going to be getting them from legitimate sources. Solid Signal charges more because they have a higher markup to pay guys like Stuart who will help potential customers figure out what they need, and help them post sale if they run into installation or other issues. Good luck getting any such help from Amazon or an eBay seller.

Looping this back to the SWM 13 LNB, I expect it costs a few dollars more to make than what a regular SWM LNB costs, so once production quantities are ramped up they'll probably be sold on eBay for prices inline with what a SL5S SWM LNB goes for. Solid Signal will charge more than eBay, as they do with SWM16s, SWM LNBs and everything else, because they are a full service dealer, not a low margin "we'll sell it to you but you're on your own after that" product shifter. If you don't need their service, then you can save money buying from other sources.


----------



## cpalmer2k

I got mine today. These definitely "fell off the truck". Be warned... mine came in a USPS priority mail envelope (yes you read that right)... with NO Boxes, and the serial # is cut off. 

Even the power supply wasn't in a box. Mine looks like it was damaged in shipment.


----------



## slice1900

Yeah, if the serial number is scraped off it seems in this case the seller is trying to cover his butt. He better hope that receivers don't phone home with serial number information of what they're connected to.

I see my receivers pop up in my router's arp once in a while, so I know they connect to the internet occasionally. Can't imagine what else they'd be doing other than contacting Directv, though I haven't ever bothered trying to sniff the traffic to see what they're sending.

Of course, Directv may not care. If they were that worried about gear like SWM16s and LNBs, they'd recover them when a customer terminates service like Dish does.


----------



## cpalmer2k

I now understand that these LNB's come boxed in groups of fours with no boxes of their own, which explains the lack of packaging on the LNB. Still it should've been shipped better. Also there are some "stains" on the white part of the LNB. Before I mess with my setup I'm going to take it down the road to the DirecTV dealer who set my system up. He's been dying to see one of these in action himself. He's going to test it for me on one of his test systems before I undo all my cabling.


----------



## peds48

cpalmer2k said:


> I now understand that these LNB's come boxed in groups of fours with no boxes of their own,


Correct, which makes it very convenient for installers to use them. You would think if they were for resale they would be individual packed.


----------



## damondlt

I've never seen an individual packed LNB even from a retailer. 
Retailers buy wholesale in bulk and ship them and sell them just the same.
Sure SS and Directv might have boxes with their names on them that doesn't mean I can't have boxes made to say what ever I want.
You going to tell me SS doesn't buy a box of 10,20, or even 50 wholesale and doesn't part them out for resale?
YEAH OKAY !!!


----------



## HoTat2

Of important note;

Just received an e-mail response to my question about RDBS capability for the new DSWiM-13 LNBF from Mr. Chaucer Chen, head sales rep. for DBS products at the Wistron NeWeb Corp. (WNC) in Taiwan.

He said it does "NOT" have that capability.

Oh well ... so I guess DIRECTV is definitely going with some other still yet to be revealed new equipment for RDBS reception.


----------



## inkahauts

I question if he'd even know.


----------



## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> I question if he'd even know.


I thought the same thing, but he also cleared up another confusing technical issue I asked about the new Latin America LNBF (the SF6-LA).
http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/200951-transponder-maps-domestic-latinam-data-refresh-10222014/?p=3302288

So he seems pretty knowledgeable on the technical specifics of their products.


----------



## slice1900

I see three possibilities:

1) the SWM 13 LNB does receive RDBS, but he's not allowed to say (e.g. WNC publishes specs for LNBs and SWMs for Directv LA, but not Directv US, why is that?)

2) the SWM 13 LNB uses the EN5400, not the EN5500. The EN5400 doesn't have enough input bands to support RDBS from 99 and 103. The EN5500 and the DSWM capable chips from Maxlinear and Broadcom are all scheduled to go into volume production in Q4 2014...right about now. The EN5500 was reportedly sampling in April, but that may not have been soon enough or in enough volume for inclusion in the SWM 13 LNB.

3) Directv is completely redesigning the analog LNB rather than simply adding RDBS to the existing decade old design, and we'll see it both in the form of an all-new legacy LNB for larger installs and as the front end to a replacement for a short-lived SWM 13 LNB. Maybe the SWM 13 LNB only exists to test DSWM and work out any kinks before it is widely deployed in a successor that uses the EN5500 and Maxlinear/Broadcom chips.

Might be time to start poking around the patent database to see if anything new has turned up since I last checked in early spring....


----------



## SolidSignal

We don't have SWM13 LNBs yet, no responsible retailer does, but in response to damondlt below, we buy our LNBs in quantity, but every one has a cardboard box provided by DIRECTV.



damondlt said:


> I've never seen an individual packed LNB even from a retailer.
> Retailers buy wholesale in bulk and ship them and sell them just the same.
> Sure SS and Directv might have boxes with their names on them that doesn't mean I can't have boxes made to say what ever I want.
> You going to tell me SS doesn't buy a box of 10,20, or even 50 wholesale and doesn't part them out for resale?
> YEAH OKAY !!!


----------



## damondlt

That's good , I was afraid of not getting my money's worth from your 90% mark up. Thanks


----------



## peds48

SolidSignal said:


> We don't have SWM13 LNBs yet, no responsible retailer does, but in response to damondlt below, we buy our LNBs in quantity, but every one has a cardboard box provided by DIRECTV.


Exactly what I said. A reputable dealer like you guys wont send an LNB loosely in an envelope. This confirms that any one that gets an LNB loosely, is an LNB fallen off a truck, a DIRECTV® truck that is!

Thanks for confirming what I already knew&#8230;.


----------



## damondlt

LMAO!
I want to se a picture of the box the single LNB comes in when you buy it from a "legitimate dealer"


----------



## damondlt

peds48 said:


> Exactly what I said. A reputable dealer like you guys wont send an LNB loosely in an envelope. This confirms that any one that gets an LNB loosely, is an LNB fallen off a truck, a DIRECTV® truck that is!
> 
> Thanks for confirming what I already knew&#8230;.


I'd rather pay $50 for a envelope, then $100 for cardboard box.


----------



## damondlt

By the way the swm 13 are now $75 and it says more than 10 available.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/171510716214?nav=SEARCH


----------



## peds48

Hurry up and buy, cause once he gets fired, then we will have to rely on reputable dealers...


----------



## peds48

BTW, S is being accused of price inflation, even tho we have no clue what they will be selling for. It could be $50.00, so all that pay $100, well….


----------



## inkahauts

Sadly, these obviously are stolen... since NO ONE has them available for sale yet...


----------



## inkahauts

damondlt said:


> That's good , I was afraid of not getting my money's worth from your 90% mark up. Thanks


Well see what he price is, but I doubt its that kind of markup. Id have to guess they are closer to 30% profit usually for these things. Its wire that's more like 50+ %


----------



## Scott Kocourek

damondlt said:


> That's good , I was afraid of not getting my money's worth from your 90% mark up. Thanks


Legitimate business need to make money on the things they sell or the services they provide, I don't understand why you would put down an honest company for not being able to compete with the guy selling them out of the back of his truck. I'm sure he doesn't pay employees, insurance taxes, etc...


----------



## peds48

Scott Kocourek said:


> I'm sure he doesn't pay employees, insurance taxes, etc...


He doesn't even pay for the product!!!!!!


----------



## peds48

Scott Kocourek said:


> Legitimate business need to make money on the things they sell or the services they provide, I don't understand why you would put down an honest company for not being able to compete with the guy selling them out of the back of his truck.


Exactly my thoughts!!!!!

Well said Scott


----------



## damondlt

Don't buy them and then you don't have to worry about it.

I'm not basing SS price inflation on swm13, I'm basing it on their commercial quote that was about $3000 higher than the dealer that ended up with my account. 
And the fact that every swm product I've purchased in the past 3 years, I've bought , ended up being 60-80% less.
So this isn't an assumption, this in hands on experience. 

Now you guys can sit there and defend them to no avail, because they use this site as advertising for their company, doesn't mean people should be condemned for finding a better prices.

If there was a massive amount of Directv LNBS stolen as claimed here, I would imagine they would have been out of business a week ago.

As far as customer service, , well I don't need SS tech support on an LNB, A swm 16 or anything for that matter to justify the "List" prices. 
If you need that assurance then you shouldn't touch your satellite system at all and Call directv because it's obvious you don't know what your doing.


----------



## inkahauts

Scott Kocourek said:


> Legitimate business need to make money on the things they sell or the services they provide, I don't understand why you would put down an honest company for not being able to compete with the guy selling them out of the back of his truck. I'm sure he doesn't pay employees, insurance taxes, etc...


I used to run retail stores selling consumer electronics. Nothing ticked me off more than people stealing from the store...


----------



## inkahauts

damondlt said:


> Don't buy them and then you don't have to worry about it.
> 
> I'm not basing SS price inflation on swm13, I'm basing it on their commercial quote that was about $3000 higher than the dealer that ended up with my account.
> And the fact that every swm product I've purchased in the past 3 years, I've bought , ended up being 60-80% less.
> So this isn't an assumption, this in hands on experience.
> 
> Now you guys can sit there and defend them to no avail, because they use this site as advertising for their company, doesn't mean people should be condemned for finding a better prices.
> 
> If there was a massive amount of Directv LNBS stolen as claimed here, I would imagine they would have been out of business a week ago.
> 
> As far as customer service, , well I don't need SS tech support on an LNB, A swm 16 or anything for that matter to justify the "List" prices.
> If you need that assurance then you shouldn't touch your satellite system at all and Call directv because it's obvious you don't know what your doing.


I have zero issues with finding cheaper prices, I do it all the time myself.. Sometimes SS is better, often times not... But when you know something is obviously stolen...

But yeah, its actually easier to steal big amounts like this more often then most people realize, and not be able to track it down... We had that happen with a lot of TVS that supposedly should have been sold to us (from the manufacturer) but ended up elsewhere..... It was an interesting case to be sure....


----------



## Scott Kocourek

damondlt said:


> Don't buy them and then you don't have to worry about it.
> 
> I'm not basing SS price inflation on swm13, I'm basing it on their commercial quote that was about $3000 higher than the dealer that ended up with my account.
> And the fact that every swm product I've purchased in the past 3 years, I've bought , ended up being 60-80% less.
> So this isn't an assumption, this in hands on experience.
> 
> Now you guys can sit there and defend them to no avail, because they use this site as advertising for their company, doesn't mean people should be condemned for finding a better prices.


I don't buy stolen goods because it's wrong, I do worry about it because it's hurts everyone including the honest businesses. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy with your employees selling your goods on ebay and putting your business at risk.

I don't work for Solid Signal so I don't know what their mark up is on products but they do sell a lot of equipment, have employees, pay taxes, insurance, and as you stated they also pay for the product they sell.

I'll defend what is right, as to advertising, I don't know. I don't get a penny to "work" here, it's all volunteer work.


----------



## scottb8888

This guy has them at $75 now. I paid $80. I should have mine today.


----------



## palmgrower

$80 as well


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## scottb8888

I'm getting ready to install mine and I see a long bolt going through the current LNB with a nut that does not appear to be standard. In other words t looks like it takes a special tool. Then below the NB it loos like a handle/ catch that when moved may release the lnb.

Anybody get what I an trying to describe and can tell me what to do?


----------



## HoTat2

scottb8888 said:


> I'm getting ready to install mine and I see a long bolt going through the current LNB with a nut that does not appear to be standard. In other words t looks like it takes a special tool. Then below the NB it loos like a handle/ catch that when moved may release the lnb.
> 
> Anybody get what I an trying to describe and can tell me what to do?


Sounds like you have a standard "Quick Release Feedarm"

In that case it should be very easy to install the new LNBF without the need for any bolting.

Download the document here;

http://www.dbstalk.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=23519

Have fun ... .


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> Exactly what I said. A reputable dealer like you guys wont send an LNB loosely in an envelope. This confirms that any one that gets an LNB loosely, is an LNB fallen off a truck, a DIRECTV® truck that is!
> 
> Thanks for confirming what I already knew&#8230;.


Oh please that's just ridiculous. You think that there's dozens of people stealing millions of dollars worth of dishes, LNBs, SWMs, splitters and so on for years and no one ever does anything about it? Wouldn't you think a company that pinches pennies as tightly as Directv does would want to do something about that? That Solid Signal would complain to Directv about it since it would be hurting their business?

How hard would it be for Directv to record the serial numbers of what they send to installers, and buy a few off eBay here and there to see what installers they match up to? If this was all stolen gear they could put a stop to it in no time.

The same guy sold me my third SWM16 who sold me the first two a year earlier. You think Directv would allow him to stay in business if he's selling stolen equipment? All they have to do is call eBay and the guy is shut down. But it was the same guy from my saved sellers list, same name, everything.

This whole idea is so silly I don't know how you can defend it with a straight face. The SWM 13 LNBs may be coming from an installer in the test markets, but it is also possible he's buying them from an intermediary, or directly from WNC, and is scratching off the serial numbers to avoid getting someone in trouble since it is supposed to be limited distribution. If they were being stolen by an installer, you'd think now that the seller has more than a dozen of them, that someone would notice that many of a new product in a test market going missing.


----------



## cpalmer2k

What is the consensus on using the black 21v power inserter vs the 29volt gray one on this? I know the SS first look says both are compatible 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## carl6

Mine has been running off the 21V PI for a couple of months now, no problems at all.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> Oh please that's just ridiculous.


As long as DIRECTV® gets paid by the HSP, why should DIRECTV® care?


----------



## slice1900

peds48 said:


> As long as DIRECTV® gets paid by the HSP, why should DIRECTV® care?


Shouldn't the HSP care? Everything that "falls off a truck" is lost profit, they're going to want to put a stop to it. If you own a convenience store, are you not going to worry about it if employees steal a couple cases of beer every shift, or will you try to stop it?


----------



## damondlt

slice1900 said:


> Shouldn't the HSP care? Everything that "falls off a truck" is lost profit, they're going to want to put a stop to it. If you own a convenience store, are you not going to worry about it if employees steal a couple cases of beer every shift, or will you try to stop it?


Yes they would stop it, Just the same when Dish fired hundreds of its retailers a few years ago.
I'm sure many of yous remember that.

Where would this Ebay dealer encounter 20 or 50 of these swm13s if they aren't available to any retailer? 
That is my question. 
What truck would they have fell off of?
Where did they come from?
Right away we want to take a moral stand on something that quite frankly doesn't seem that cheap compared to real world marked prices like ebay and amazon.

But when it seems the price is out of control , well that because they have employees and family's to feed.

Well guess what, so do the rest of us, and I'd rather take that 60% mark up I saved by buying elsewhere and invest it in my family, not yours.


----------



## peds48

slice1900 said:


> Shouldn't the HSP care?


Sure, but the issue seems less pandemic when it happens to many different HSPs, rather then only one party.


----------



## samrs

slice1900 said:


> Shouldn't the HSP care?


The ones that didn't have filed for bankruptcy. We had an RDO get fired for sticky fingers.
If we had SWiM13's in this market they would be issued to Techs by W/O only. Any missing ones would fall off upstream.


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## palmgrower

scottb8888 said:


> Did I hear anywhere that this lnb helps the rain fade a bit?


I hope so


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## P Smith

scottb8888 said:


> My 13 seems to be working fine! Did I hear anywhere that this lnb helps the rain fade a bit?


do you know any real technical reason to ? Or just producing FUD?


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## damondlt

P Smith said:


> do you know any real technical reason to ? Or just producing FUD?


He's asking a question.


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## P Smith

damondlt said:


> He's asking a question.


then why is not read back the thread ? (slice's posts will give him the FUD) it would just prevent from guessing again, as it was done already


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## HoTat2

Me personally, as I've said once before here, I really don't see any connection between the digital filtering methods used by this LNBF and improving it's immunity to RF.

They appear to be non-sequiturs,

But not to be dogmatic, I'll grant that perhaps I'm overlooking something.


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## P Smith

as the question (reduce rain fade) been discussed may times, it would be more productive for such persuaders to make custom LNBF's holder and get 1m or 1.2m reflector


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## palmgrower

Installed, working well, able to view a receiver now that couldn't view before at remote location on macbook pro.
All 3 receivers are seeing each other now, prior to change one could never see the HR34 recordings list on one of the hr24's.


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## palmgrower

I just found these from the same girl for $60, down $20 in one week


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## compnurd

I just installed mine. Signal levels are up on some TP's by a couple of points across all SAT's. So far so good. I am using a PI-21 with it and everything connected to a 8-Port Splitter.. Question though... Should there be a min, cable distance between the TP and the Splitter?


----------



## HoTat2

compnurd said:


> I just installed mine. Signal levels are up on some TP's by a couple of points across all SAT's. So far so good. I am using a PI-21 with it and everything connected to a 8-Port Splitter.. Question though... Should there be a min, cable distance between the TP and the Splitter?


I know the first occurrence of "TP" obviously means "transponder(s)," but what's the second "TP" in reference to your question of minimum distance from the splitter mean?


----------



## mexican-bum

compnurd said:


> I just installed mine. Signal levels are up on some TP's by a couple of points across all SAT's. So far so good. I am using a PI-21 with it and everything connected to a 8-Port Splitter.. Question though... Should there be a min, cable distance between the TP and the Splitter?


i finally got one when they came down to $60.

I installed earlier and saw the same thing. Everything came up a bit without tweaking dish, it's a very cloudy and drizzly day here and still getting great signal.


----------



## compnurd

HoTat2 said:


> I know the first occurrence of "TP" obviously means "transponder(s)," but what's the second "TP" in reference to your question of minimum distance from the splitter mean?


My bad. Second was supposed to be PI


----------



## HoTat2

compnurd said:


> My bad. Second was supposed to be PI


Ok, well there is no official minimum distance restriction between the PI and splitter to my knowledge.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith

mexican-bum said:


> i finally got one when they came down to $60.
> 
> I installed earlier and saw the same thing. *Everything came up* a bit without tweaking dish, it's a very cloudy and drizzly day here and still getting great signal.


Any chance to get _numbers_ ? Better get snapshots of full matrix of tpns with old LNBF and new one... perhaps other new owner would take pictures before/after changing LNBF ?


----------



## slice1900

Based on HoTat2's response from the WNC guy that the SWM 13 LNB doesn't have RDBS capability, it would seem the analog portion of the LNB is identical to the KaKu legacy and SWM LNBs that have been around for years. If so, there would be no difference for rain fade. The digital portion should make it more resistant to LO drift however - i.e. less instance of temperature related LNB issues, but that's it. I would have thought the SWM 13 LNB would include RDBS but if it turns out it is based on the EN5400 chip it can't - if so it will be a relatively short lived product like the AT9.

That makes me wonder if Directv might be making a bigger update to the LNB when they finally add RDBS. I've seen patents specifically targeted at Directv mentioning the use of waveguides and discussing the benefits of that solution. Also, digitizing at the input and doing the filtering/mixing/stacking digitally might allow a RDBS capable legacy LNB to stick with four coaxes instead of requiring more, as well as using fewer components, with less variation between LNBs and perhaps cheaper to make eventually.

They might even design a new dish - the Slimline is wider than it is tall for 110/119, if they no longer need to receive those, it can be much more round and smaller in overall size - therefore cheaper to make and ship and better WAF (wife acceptance factor)


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## Christopher Gould

Just to add to the discussion. Maybe the eBay person is the owner of an hsp and is selling them as well as installing them to make extra money which would be legal lol 


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


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## cpalmer2k

I'm going to try to install mine this weekend. The weather has been awful both weekends here since it arrived. I'll take some before & after signal readings.


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## inkahauts

Christopher Gould said:


> Just to add to the discussion. Maybe the eBay person is the owner of an hsp and is selling them as well as installing them to make extra money which would be legal lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


Then They paid more to get them than they are selling them for.


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## palmgrower

This are results from the new LNB
I did not take before photos.
HR34





HR24





The other HR24 was in use, no signal data available


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## palmgrower

inkahauts said:


> Then They paid more to get them than they are selling them for.


Being a novice, $80 seemed fair, whatever fair is


----------



## slice1900

Question for those of you involved in the pre-release testing of the SWM 13 LNB. Do you remember when the testing was first announced, and when you had the LNB installed? Don't need an exact date, just something like "mid May" would be close enough.

I assume everyone involved all heard about it at the same time and all had theirs installed right about the same time, so if that's the case I only need one answer.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

slice1900 said:


> Question for those of you involved in the pre-release testing of the SWM 13 LNB. Do you remember when the testing was first announced, and when you had the LNB installed? Don't need an exact date, just something like "mid May" would be close enough.
> 
> I assume everyone involved all heard about it at the same time and all had theirs installed right about the same time, so if that's the case I only need one answer.


The folks that participated in the field trial are not allowed to discuss things certain details, sorry.


----------



## slice1900

Scott Kocourek said:


> The folks that participated in the field trial are not allowed to discuss things certain details, sorry.


Sorry, didn't realize that question was out of bounds. I was hoping to figure out when the SWM 13 LNB made its appearance, to determine if it was even possible for the EN5500 to have been used in it. If it used the EN5400 like the DSWM13 that would neatly explain why it can't receive RDBS (based on HoTat2's email to WNC)

Since the launch of D14 and D15 are coming up soon, I'm wondering where the heck RDBS reception ability is. Maybe they aren't planning on rolling out 4K broadcasts until 2016 so there's no pressing need. I suppose after launch new LNBs based on gen2 DSWM chips will be in testing, but no one will be able to talk about it for however many months that testing lasts 

When I predicted early this year that Directv would have residential DSWM LNBs before the end of the year (to much derision from Stuart and VOS) I suggested one reason they'd need it was to support RDBS. I was right about the residential DSWM LNB, but it doesn't seem to support RDBS which I find rather puzzling. I can't figure out what the purpose of the SWM 13 LNB is, it is the same as the SWM LNB but adds only 5 tuners. That's something, but hardly seems worth the effort for a product that would have a pretty short life.

Maybe Entropic wouldn't produce the EN5400 needed for the DSWM13 unless Directv/WNC committed to rather sizable minimum order, so they're burning off the excess with the SWM 13 LNB?


----------



## CraigerM

How is this with bad weather?


----------



## P Smith

Slice, I would expect 4k VOD would fit into one mux/tpn, with new sats it would be enough Ka tpns for first time,hence RDBS will used for internal needs and tests.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Slice, I would expect 4k VOD would fit into one mux/tpn, with new sats it would be enough Ka tpns for first time,hence RDBS will used for internal needs and tests.


Just don't see how that would comply witb their Milestone agreement with the FCC to develop and deploy RDBS as a service to consumers to use it for only internal testing or other private purposes.

Directv also mentioned in their recent ME extension requests for RB-1 and 2 that they, through great cost I recall, have developed RDBS customer reception gear. So its just a waiting game to see the revelation of this new equipment. But I agree with slice, I really would have expected the SWiM-13 LNB to have this capability.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## palmgrower

CraigerM said:


> How is this with bad weather?


It rained all of Sunday, zero rain outages, signals never fell off.


----------



## slice1900

palmgrower said:


> It rained all of Sunday, zero rain outages, signals never fell off.


In order for the SWM 13 LNB to perform better in rain, the analog "antenna" portion of it that receives the signals would have to have been upgraded from the SWM LNB. There is no reason to think that it has been, especially if it hasn't even been changed to add RDBS reception which appears to be the case.

Some improvement in poor weather signals may be observed when the SWM 13 LNB is installed if the dish was previously out of alignment a bit, and the alignment was tweaked when the SWM 13 was installed.


----------



## P Smith

at least lucky owners of the new LNBF could take SS numbers before change it and after... instead of compare something real, we're getting just wishful thinking


----------



## jay22381

I think i have the new Lnb


----------



## peds48

palmgrower said:


> It rained all of Sunday, zero rain outages, signals never fell off.


Well, DIRECTV® is not supposed to fade when it rains. It has to be a downpour


----------



## jay22381

New Lnb


----------



## HoTat2

jay22381 said:


> New Lnb


No, that is a standard Slimline-3 analog SWiM LNB.

The new digital SWiM-13 LNB is part number 
3D1LNBR0-01 by WNC.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## jay22381

Oh ok


----------



## Scott Kocourek

P Smith said:


> at least lucky owners of the new LNBF could take SS numbers before change it and after... instead of compare something real, we're getting just wishful thinking


I compared the numbers using the receiver before the new LNB and after, it never varied by more than one, some above, some below but most were identical.


----------



## P Smith

Scott Kocourek said:


> I compared the numbers using the receiver before the new LNB and after, it never varied by more than one, some above, some below but most were identical.


That's what I expected ... ppl just overexcited by new toy and want to see better signal


----------



## palmgrower

I have no basis for performance improvement, but...
I can see all the receivers remotely, not just two of them
The channel changing on all receivers is faster
The storm last weekend didn't result in rain outage
I wonder how much of it was due to the SL3 and the SWM16

I am glad the Swm13 works


----------



## Jacob Braun

I went from a KaKU-5 with a SWM16 to a DSWM13 and my signal gained a point or two everywhere (except 119 which I lost duh). I have a whole Excel spreadsheet with my before and after numbers if Scott will let me post it.

Not sure if this is because of less cabling from the dish to the house but I have been extremely pleased with it's performance.



cpalmer2k said:


> What is the consensus on using the black 21v power inserter vs the 29volt gray one on this? I know the SS first look says both are compatible
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Mine's been running on the grey 29V for several months with 0 issues.


----------



## slice1900

There are differences between "identical" LNBs larger than a couple points that have to do with random manufacturing variations or differences between different vendors/revs, so small differences between one's old LNB and a SWM 13 LNB are pretty meaningless.


----------



## peds48

Another thing to keep in mind is, the SL5 is heavier than an SWM13. some SL5 from a particular manufacturer are even heavier. this is why DirecTV recommends that when swiping LNBs, the dish be readjusted....


----------



## jimmie57

JBv said:


> I went from a KaKU-5 with a SWM16 to a DSWM13 and my signal gained a point or two everywhere (except 119 which I lost duh). I have a whole Excel spreadsheet with my before and after numbers if Scott will let me post it.
> 
> Not sure if this is because of less cabling from the dish to the house but I have been extremely pleased with it's performance.
> 
> Mine's been running on the grey 29V for several months with 0 issues.


Save the spreadsheet as a pdf file and then it is easy to post.
Choose the More Options next to the Post button to locate and upload it.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

JBv said:


> I went from a KaKU-5 with a SWM16 to a DSWM13 and my signal gained a point or two everywhere (except 119 which I lost duh). I have a whole Excel spreadsheet with my before and after numbers if Scott will let me post it.
> 
> Not sure if this is because of less cabling from the dish to the house but I have been extremely pleased with it's performance.
> 
> Mine's been running on the grey 29V for several months with 0 issues.


Go ahead and post it if you would like to. I think you have my email address if you want to send it to me.


----------



## Sea bass

With a new Sat launch coming, is buying this a waste of money? Will a newer lnb be required to receive the new sat programming?


----------



## slice1900

Sea bass said:


> With a new Sat launch coming, is buying this a waste of money? Will a newer lnb be required to receive the new sat programming?


It looks like this won't be able to receive the new RDBS bands broadcast by D14 and D15, which Directv will likely use for 4K broadcasts only. The additional HD channels that D14 will be adding (in your receiver's satellite screen you'll see 99c renamed 99cb and and a new 99ca added when these broadcasts become active) can be received by this and all other HD dishes, so no problem there.

If you think being able to use a single wire for more than 8 tuners is important to you, you can buy the SWM 13 LNB. If you're fine sticking with what you have until you know for sure what you get will support 4K you should wait.

Also, a new RDBS supporting LNB may well support more than 13 tuners (the chip used will be capable of up to 23, but like the SWM 13 LNB may be limited to fewer for other reasons) That could be important since 4K may require more than one SWM "tuner" per channel.


----------



## Sea bass

slice1900 said:


> It looks like this won't be able to receive the new RDBS bands broadcast by D14 and D15, which Directv will likely use for 4K broadcasts only. The additional HD channels that D14 will be adding (in your receiver's satellite screen you'll see 99c renamed 99cb and and a new 99ca added when these broadcasts become active) can be received by this and all other HD dishes, so no problem there.
> 
> If you think being able to use a single wire for more than 8 tuners is important to you, you can buy the SWM 13 LNB. If you're fine sticking with what you have until you know for sure what you get will support 4K you should wait.
> 
> Also, a new RDBS supporting LNB may well support more than 13 tuners (the chip used will be capable of up to 23, but like the SWM 13 LNB may be limited to fewer for other reasons) That could be important since 4K may require more than one SWM "tuner" per channel.


Thanks for the info. Glad to hear we won't need a new lnb to receive HD from D14. I will at some point want 4k, will wait and see. Again thank you, great info


----------



## P Smith

It's spooling now " PUSH - MPEG4 D10	PUSH - 4K 1 (D10 Txp 10)	8500	4KCAROUSEL"


----------



## palmgrower

How's it look?


----------



## P Smith

I think it's look good: compressed by few rounds, spooled as VOD... no limits for bandwidth.


----------



## palmgrower

Which channel?


----------



## P Smith

Check dedicated thread, you are going offtopic.


----------



## slice1900

Just curious, does anyone know where the test markets this is being tested are?


----------



## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> Just curious, does anyone know where the test markets this is being tested are?


swm or 4k markets?


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> swm or 4k markets?


The SWM13 LNB. Curious whether its test markets overlap with the narrow RDBS spot beams that D12 broadcasts...

Didn't know there were also 4K test markets...if you know where those are maybe they overlap with the RDBS spot beams.


----------



## lzhj9k

FYI

The two Ebay Sellers were from Arizona and California, if that helps.


----------



## HoTat2

lzhj9k said:


> FYI
> 
> The two Ebay Sellers were from Arizona and California, if that helps.


Nah ...

Unfortunately it doesn't help the speculation. ...

The spotbeams from the RDBS payload, RB-2A, aboard D12 are boresighted on El Paso, TX., Salt Lake City, UT., Seattle, WA., and Alaska. So the sellers would likely be in at least one of those markets I would think.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## dpeters11

And that includes both warm and cold climates. We don't want a repeat of the lnbs that didn't do well in cold.


----------



## cpalmer2k

I'm curious to those of you who have installed these... what is the "preferred" method? Right now I have a SWM-16 so I have two lines running off of it to 4-way splitters.

Should I leave it "as is", or should I run the line from the LNB at the dish directly into an 8 way and connect all the lines to it? Which method gives less "loss"?

I was originally planning to go with the 8-way but when I started playing with it I realized that the 8 way won't fit into my structured wiring panel with the cables attached. They really need an "old school" 8 way approved splitter with all the ports on the top & bottom. 

Sigh... I'm hoping tomorrow is the day I'm going to get mine on the dish... every weekend since I got it it has rained or been freezing cold.


----------



## peds48

For MoCA, one splitter is better than two. For SWM, there is really not much of a difference (in your case) when it comes to loss.


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Nah ...
> 
> Unfortunately it doesn't help the speculation. ...
> 
> The spotbeams from the RDBS payload, RB-2A, aboard D12 are boresighted on El Paso, TX., Salt Lake City, UT., Seattle, WA., and Alaska. So the sellers would likely be in at least one of those markets I would think.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


I'm not sure where the sellers are located would necessarily be correlated with where the test markets are. If these LNBs "fell off the truck" like peds48 thinks, then sure. But if they're getting them further upstream before they reach the test markets, that's a different story.

I assumed someone here would know, but looking back I don't see anyone posting who was located in those test markets. Only those who help Directv test them initially and people buying them off eBay now.


----------



## inkahauts

cpalmer2k said:


> I'm curious to those of you who have installed these... what is the "preferred" method? Right now I have a SWM-16 so I have two lines running off of it to 4-way splitters.
> 
> Should I leave it "as is", or should I run the line from the LNB at the dish directly into an 8 way and connect all the lines to it? Which method gives less "loss"?
> 
> I was originally planning to go with the 8-way but when I started playing with it I realized that the 8 way won't fit into my structured wiring panel with the cables attached. They really need an "old school" 8 way approved splitter with all the ports on the top & bottom.
> 
> Sigh... I'm hoping tomorrow is the day I'm going to get mine on the dish... every weekend since I got it it has rained or been freezing cold.


Do you actually have 8 locations with boxes right now?


----------



## jimmie57

slice1900 said:


> *I'm not sure where the sellers are located *would necessarily be correlated with where the test markets are. If these LNBs "fell off the truck" like peds48 thinks, then sure. But if they're getting them further upstream before they reach the test markets, that's a different story.
> 
> I assumed someone here would know, but looking back I don't see anyone posting who was located in those test markets. Only those who help Directv test them initially and people buying them off eBay now.


One of the ads they have listed gives their address as:

Item location: Phoenix, Arizona, United States

Another Item shows Mesa, Arizona


----------



## slice1900

jimmie57 said:


> One of the ads they have listed gives their address as:
> 
> Item location: Phoenix, Arizona, United States
> 
> Another Item shows Mesa, Arizona


I think you misread my sentence. The part you highlighted was the subject, not a statement. If it was, it would have had a period or at least a comma after it


----------



## jimmie57

slice1900 said:


> I think you misread my sentence. The part you highlighted was the subject, not a statement. If it was, it would have had a period or at least a comma after it


My post was to add a little bit more information about the mystery seller.


----------



## mika911

As you have more tuner capacity on a single RG6, does it put more emphasis on the quality of the run? Does your line need to be in exceptional shape to have a 13 tuner system work compared to an 8 tuner system, or is it pretty much irrelevant? I have some old cabling in my runs. While it has been working fine with the 8 tuner LNB, I was curious if the 13 tuner could make its weaknesses show up, i.e. develop inconsistent signal.


----------



## slice1900

mika911 said:


> As you have more tuner capacity on a single RG6, does it put more emphasis on the quality of the run? Does your line need to be in exceptional shape to have a 13 tuner system work compared to an 8 tuner system, or is it pretty much irrelevant? I have some old cabling in my runs. While it has been working fine with the 8 tuner LNB, I was curious if the 13 tuner could make its weaknesses show up, i.e. develop inconsistent signal.


The SWM 13 LNB uses half the bandwidth per channel, so the SWM 13 actually has a smaller frequency spread than 8 channel SWM and would be very (very) slightly more resilient to cabling issues.


----------



## studechip

I have seen at least three different sellers. If indeed they did "fall off the truck", wouldn't Directv have contacted eBay and shut down the auctions?


----------



## peds48

They would have to prove they indeed felt of the truck. Lot easier to conduct an internal investigation and fire the culprit


----------



## MrWindows

I bought mine off of eBay for $60, took five minutes to install and works flawlessly.


----------



## energyx

MrWindows said:


> I bought mine off of eBay for $60, took five minutes to install and works flawlessly.


How about $35 shipped? http://www.ebay.com/itm/FREE-SHIPPING-NEW-DIRECTV-DSWM-LNB-SWM13-13-TUNER-3D1LNBR0-01-FREE-SHIPPING-/181609327874


----------



## palmgrower

That's reasonable 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## peds48

Found one better, $29.99 free shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-DirecTV-SWM3-SWM-3-Satellite-LNB-w-Power-Inserter-4-way-SWM-Splitter/301414890472?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3Dd6ab6a18bc404adfac7b723b1d5d15b2%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D181609327874&rt=nc

Note how it says, "items may have scuff marks for loose storage"


----------



## palmgrower

Very Reasonable


----------



## nsykes

peds48 said:


> Found one better, $29.99 free shipping.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-DirecTV-SWM3-SWM-3-Satellite-LNB-w-Power-Inserter-4-way-SWM-Splitter/301414890472?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3Dd6ab6a18bc404adfac7b723b1d5d15b2%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D181609327874&rt=nc
> 
> Note how it says, "items may have scuff marks for loose storage"


This looks to be the older SWM3 though. Not the newer model with the 13 tuner capability.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

nsykes said:


> This looks to be the older SWM3 though. Not the newer model with the 13 tuner capability.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You are right. I was going by picture and not title


----------



## MrWindows

I for one am much happier with my DirecTV service than I ever was with my local cable provider, who kept getting into contract disputes with the cable channels and kept going dark. I just wish they would treat existing and especially long-term customers better, and give us a break. I've been a DirecTV customer since the mid '90's, off and on. I had cable where it made sense and I couldn't easily put up a dish, and needed it for internet much of the time anyway.
DirecTV imposes these byzantine rules and extends your contract for stupid stuff, like adding an outlet. If I pay for the service, I really shouldn't have to pay a per-outlet fee, especially if I 'own' the box. I shouldn't have to threaten to cancel in order to get a better deal, or the same deal a new customer gets. I should already be getting the very best rate DTV offers, just for being a customer for over 5 years.
But then, I'd like to have better integration with my TV, too. I might as well shoot for the moon...


----------



## Laxguy

What's your TV?- The Sony? How old and what does it seem to lack?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I've done a little cleanup. Discuss the TOPIC and not each other. 

Mike


----------



## stvcmty

Is the SWM 13 LNB's output stronger than the SL3-SWM LNB's? It seems like it should be since an extra 2-way splitter may be needed to get everything hooked up.


----------



## HoTat2

stvcmty said:


> Is the SWM 13 LNB's output stronger than the SL3-SWM LNB's? It seems like it should be since an extra 2-way splitter may be needed to get everything hooked up.


Could be slightly,

Though the SWiM-8 outboard modules have used internal 2x1 splitters to supply it's two output ports for years without any higher output levels needed and haven't had any problems to my knowledge with the additional 3+ db signal loss incurred.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## texasbrit

stvcmty said:


> Is the SWM 13 LNB's output stronger than the SL3-SWM LNB's? It seems like it should be since an extra 2-way splitter may be needed to get everything hooked up.


I'm not sure that it is. Although the signal "strength" numbers are not really strength, and although LNBs vary slightly anyway, the levels from my SWM13 LNB are basically the same (within 1 point) of those on the SWM 5LNB that it replaced.


----------



## bobnielsen

There must have been a few more trucks with loose tailgates. :rolling:


----------



## slice1900

texasbrit said:


> I'm not sure that it is. Although the signal "strength" numbers are not really strength, and although LNBs vary slightly anyway, the levels from my SWM13 LNB are basically the same (within 1 point) of those on the SWM 5LNB that it replaced.


He was talking about strength in db, not Directv's satellite screen signal quality measurement.


----------



## texasbrit

slice1900 said:


> He was talking about strength in db, not Directv's satellite screen signal quality measurement.


I know. But as far as I know no-one has measured it yet. And I would be surprised if the signal was any stronger. Now the SWM13 multiswitch, that's a different matter. That is considerably "hotter", because it's designed for loop thru wiring using taps.


----------



## Jacob Braun

So this is really late but here are my before and afters several months ago.

This is going from a SWM-16 with a 5LNB and WorldDirect to a DSWM-13

View attachment 26047


----------



## compnurd

Jbv. I had almost the same exact increases. About 4-5 points across


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## P Smith

It could be a result of better alignment.


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> It could be a result of better alignment.


Yes, I'd agree with that. It looks like the previous alignment was not very good, or he had a 'weak' LNB previously. My readings are higher than his DSWM-13 results with a legacy LNB, and Tulsa is if anything a slightly more optimal location than where I am.


----------



## Jacob Braun

slice1900 said:


> Yes, I'd agree with that. It looks like the previous alignment was not very good, or he had a 'weak' LNB previously. My readings are higher than his DSWM-13 results with a legacy LNB, and Tulsa is if anything a slightly more optimal location than where I am.


It was a new SL5 LNB and I just removed the SL5 and put on the 3DS, so no alignment change. If anything it could be from the massive cable reduction I had.


----------



## slice1900

JBv said:


> It was a new SL5 LNB and I just removed the SL5 and put on the 3DS, so no alignment change. If anything it could be from the massive cable reduction I had.


Whether it is new or not doesn't seem to affect whether it is 'weak'. Some brands/revs seem to be known to produce slightly lower signal quality numbers than others. I remember a thread where a number of people reported tpn 10 on 103ca in the 80s while the rest of their tpns were in the 90s. That's the sort of oddity you might get with one LNB but not another depending on when who made it, when, or the random variations in the parts they all use. Others may not have any down that low but may see 99c/103ca/103cb readings in the low 90s instead of the 98 mine peaks at, etc.


----------



## joshjr

This will work great for most customers. I currently have 15 tuners and use an LNB for all 5 sats. This is awesome though. Most people where I live would never have as big of setup as I do. This will be great for so many people. Nice Job!


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Scott Kocourek said:


> *DBSTalk is proud to release the First Look of the SWM-13 LNB*​​​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​​*SWM-13 LNB First Look* ​
> Please note that this product is currently available only in test markets​​_Please note that some DBSTalk.com testers and staff members may have received free equipment from DIRECTV or its partners for the purpose of evaluation and testing._


Very cool.

Is it my eyes or is it a bit bigger in size?


----------



## Radio Enginerd

joshjr said:


> This will work great for most customers. I currently have 15 tuners and use an LNB for all 5 sats. This is awesome though. Most people where I live would never have as big of setup as I do. This will be great for so many people. Nice Job!


Agree.

This will make for easy and clean installs for most of DirecTV's customer base.

Amazing how far we've come from the days of the single and dual LNB's of the late 90's.


----------



## carl6

Radio Enginerd said:


> Very cool.
> 
> Is it my eyes or is it a bit bigger in size?


It is larger than the previous SWM LNB.


----------



## HoTat2

carl6 said:


> It is larger than the previous SWM LNB.


Yep,

And it can afford to be larger of course since DBS use offset dishes where inherently the LNBF does not really interfere with the in or outgoing signal path to the satellite(s).

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## nsykes

For a guy who has never done any work involving LNB installations, this was a breeze! I purchased the 3DS from eBay for $38 total and installed it today.
I previously had a non SWM SL5 LNB. 4 wires coming from the dish! It only took me 2 tries of going through the receiver boot up to figure out which coax was the one I connected to the 3DS. I removed the SWM16 multiswitch and went straight into the new splitter. After I had verified all was working on my receivers I was able to pull out the 3 other coax lines. Looks so much better now! No dish alignment was necessary. 
The receivers recognized the new LNB right away however when I looked in the info section it still showed the SL5. I went through Satellite setup and it immediately recognized the DSWM. Now it shows correctly.
This unit must make installers lives a breeze! I'm glad I picked one up because now I have room to grow my tuner count without the unsightly cables running up my house.
Plus it was kind of fun playing installer for a few hours


----------



## bakers12

I'm glad that worked out for you. I installed one of the SWM 5 LNBs way back when, to replace a non-SWM 5, and had no trouble.

It's not hard to find the correct coax on the first try with a simple tool. Any kind of continuity tester will work. This can be an ohmmeter or even just a light bulb and a battery.

Disconnect all four coaxes at the dish and disconnect all coaxes at the SWM. If you don't have a SWM, disconnect all the coaxes from the receivers. Pick any one coax at the dish or at the SWM (or one receiver) and use any piece of wire to dead short the center conductor to the screw connector. At the other end, use the continuity tester to find the coax that has low resistance.


----------



## cpalmer2k

Since I installed my SWM13 I'm noticed one odd problem. Last night while watching CBS the picture would briefly drop out and I would get a 771 error, then it would return. We're talking split second drops here, just long enough for the picture to go black and return. I have an HR34 Genie and previously I have had the same "break up" symptoms on CBS that posters have discussed in another thread where the picture would remain, but the top would be garbled and the audio messed up. I wonder if the 771 is the new version of that given that the new SWM13 lnb operates digitally? So far I haven't seen these issues on any other channel, and all my transponders for my spot beams show solid signals in the high 90's.


----------



## slice1900

cpalmer2k said:


> Since I installed my SWM13 I'm noticed one odd problem. Last night while watching CBS the picture would briefly drop out and I would get a 771 error, then it would return. We're talking split second drops here, just long enough for the picture to go black and return. I have an HR34 Genie and previously I have had the same "break up" symptoms on CBS that posters have discussed in another thread where the picture would remain, but the top would be garbled and the audio messed up. I wonder if the 771 is the new version of that given that the new SWM13 lnb operates digitally? So far I haven't seen these issues on any other channel, and all my transponders for my spot beams show solid signals in the high 90's.


The error messages seen on receivers won't change between the old SWM LNB and the SWM 13 LNB. It does the filtering and stacking digitally, but the output in terms of individual SWM channels is unchanged between the two - only the number of channels and their spacing differs.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> The error messages seen on receivers won't change between the old SWM LNB and the SWM 13 LNB. It does the filtering and stacking digitally, but the output in terms of individual SWM channels is unchanged between the two - only the number of channels and their spacing differs.


Also, unless the poster simply hasn't noticed it on other program channels;

I've never seen how a fault in the LNBF, SWiM type or otherwise, can ever be responsible for causing a single program channel to breakup or lose reception and not all the other channels on the same transponder as well since the SWiM switches at the transponder stream level. Not down to the granularity (at least yet) of the individual program channels multiplexed on a transponder.


----------



## texasbrit

A cable/connector issue between the receiver and the splitter is the most likely cause of this 771...


----------



## scottb8888

So I see that the SWM13 does not receive 119 sat. Not sure what contenet is there but I seem to have everything. Just wondering when they will make this the standard LNB or are they coming out with one that does support 119?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Markets that need the 119 satellite will still use the current SWMLNB. At one point there were plans to ooffer a 5-location DSWMLNB but I haven't heard anything about that in over a year.


----------



## slice1900

For a variety of reasons, and the statement from WNC that it doesn't support RDBS, I don't think the SWM 13 LNB will ever become the standard LNB. When they start using RDBS (late this year or sometime next year) they'll introduce a LNB that receives it, which will become the standard LNB at that time. Whether there is a version of that new LNB which receives 119 or not depends on Directv's future plans for 119.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

slice1900 said:


> ... I don't think the SWM 13 LNB will ever become the standard LNB. ...


I think you and I would disagree


----------



## inkahauts

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think you and I would disagree


I expect it to become the only standard one once it also is capable of bss. But when? I would bet on soon myself.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I expect it to become the only standard one once it also is capable of bss. But when? I would bet on soon myself.


Exactly. While nothing prevents them from adding RDBS capability to the SWM 13 LNB without changing the name, that seems unnecessarily confusing. Not to mention, depending on how Directv implements 4K, a 4K receiver may require two transponders per "tuner". i.e. if you wanted a five tuner Genie4K that was capable of tuning five 4K channels at once, it would grab 10 SWM channels. If they go that route, the LNB needs to support more than 13 SWM channels.

Since the addition of RDBS reception adds almost no cost, I'd be surprised if they used a non-RDBS capable LNB for standard installs once they begin offering 4K, requiring an installer visit when a customer upgrades.

The big mystery is why the SWM 13 LNB only supports 13 channels in the first place. If we knew the answer to that, maybe it would be easier to guess where they're going with this.


----------



## P Smith

I would bet a good chunk of quids, no one 4k channel will require more then one tpn. And I would bet more you'll see two such channels per tpn.
Perhaps you still theorizing, but I see real loads of tpns with 4k streams at Turkish and European satellites.


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> I would bet a good chunk of squids, no one 4k channel will require more then one tpn. And I would bet more you'll see two such channels per tpn.


They won't require more than one tpn, but DVB-S2X allows bonding 2 or 3 transponders together. Would make stat muxing a lot more efficient than if you just have two.

Granted, this doesn't matter until they have more than 36 4K channels, which would be years away, until then they could use one transponder per channel. But if they plan to ever do this, they'd at least want to wait to build 4K receivers until DVB-S2X chipsets are available, otherwise the first generation 4K receivers would be like the H10/HR10 - obsolete within a few years of their release.


----------



## P Smith

DVB-S2X is targeting professional equipment, I wouldn't expect its use for customer's equipment for long long time ...


----------



## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> They won't require more than one tpn, but DVB-S2X allows bonding 2 or 3 transponders together. Would make stat muxing a lot more efficient than if you just have two.
> 
> Granted, this doesn't matter until they have more than 36 4K channels, which would be years away, until then they could use one transponder per channel. But if they plan to ever do this, they'd at least want to wait to build 4K receivers until DVB-S2X chipsets are available, otherwise the first generation 4K receivers would be like the H10/HR10 - obsolete within a few years of their release.


Of course at this point in the process DirecTV has to operate as if AT&T isn't buying them, but I wonder if AT&T wouldn't want other uses for that bandwidth (or heck, even DirecTV themselves). Sure, use it for 4K, but like you said it will take YEARS to fill it up. In the mean time those extra BSS transponders could be used for downstream bandwidth for VOD and other services instead of just sitting idle. It would make sense, if BSS LNBs don't cost a significant amount extra, for BSS capable LNBs to become standard for all installs.

Actually, that would be a great time to introduce a new generation of receivers and switch to all HD/MPEG-4 for all customers (not just new customers) and start upgrading customers "forcefully". I suspect the AT&T merger will delay that, though, since AT&T wants to "integrate" DirecTV into U-Verse TV.


----------



## HoTat2

I do question though, the lack of any appearance of an RDBS capable LNBF or any other possible related R-band reception equipment so far and DIRECTV's claim to the FCC last year in their Milestone Extention requests for RB-1 and 2 about being anxious as anyone to get an RDBS subscriber service off the ground.

Thoungh somewhat subjective on my part I grant, frankly I don't see any real evidence of alacrity by DIRECTV to get things moving here on this ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## JosephB

HoTat2 said:


> I do question though, the lack of any appearance of an RDBS capable LNBF or any other possible related R-band reception equipment so far and DIRECTV's claim to the FCC last year in their Milestone Extention requests for RB-1 and 2 about being anxious as anyone to get an RDBS subscriber service off the ground.
> 
> Thoungh somewhat subjective on my part I grant, frankly I don't see any real evidence of alacrity by DIRECTV to get things moving here on this ...
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Well, the requirement to meet FCC "in service" requirements is probably pretty low. If they use it for backhaul or for private network broadcasts for even a handful of customers, then I'd bet that will keep their license requirements met.


----------



## HoTat2

JosephB said:


> Well, the requirement to meet FCC "in service" requirements is probably pretty low. If they use it for backhaul or for private network broadcasts for even a handful of customers, then I'd bet that will keep their license requirements met.


But unless it was just alot of hype,

This doesn't appear at all to match the language in those MEs last year about the boatloads of money and resources they have invested on both sides of the asile (in broadcast transmission and subscriber reception equipment) and what an eagerness they have to begin a national subscriber service in the new band. But through no fault of their own, they have been delayed from meeting the final milestone requirement for this.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> DVB-S2X is targeting professional equipment, I wouldn't expect its use for customer's equipment for long long time ...


No, it is no different than DVB-S2 in that it targets the whole satellite market, including the DTH market - particularly addressing the 4K DTH market.


----------



## P Smith

As I mentioned before - in Europe the 4k channels popping out without DVB-S2X. Everything is fine working on DVB-S2.


----------



## slice1900

P Smith said:


> As I mentioned before - in Europe the 4k channels popping out without DVB-S2X. Everything is fine working on DVB-S2.


I never said DVB-S2X is required for 4K, but it does offer some advantages. When they start having dozens of 4K channels available then we'll see if they stick with DVB-S2.


----------



## P Smith

"to show advantage" - yeah, I'm OK with that ... but you mentioned the duo so many times, I become feeling you are obsessed with the pair


----------



## inkahauts

Interesting.


----------



## tonyc

I have 1-HR44 , 1-c31, 1-wvb my swm-16 runs very hot it would be great to get rid of it , will this work for my set up?


----------



## HoTat2

tonyc said:


> I have 1-HR44 , 1-c31, 1-wvb my swm-16 runs very hot it would be great to get rid of it , will this work for my set up?


Sure...

I'm surprised a SWiM-16 was even installed here to begin with.

Your setup as described only requires 5 tuners which are just for the Genie. The mini clients, wired or wireless, don't have satellite tuners, so even a standard analog SWiM LNB that handles a max. of 8 tuners would suffice.

Unless you are interested in future-proofing in case you may add more receivers beyond 8 tuners.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## tonyc

HoTat2 said:


> Sure...
> 
> I'm surprised a SWiM-16 was even installed here to begin with.
> 
> Your setup as described only requires 5 tuners which are just for the Genie. The mini clients, wired or wireless, don't have satellite tuners, so even a standard analog SWiM LNB that handles a max. of 8 tuners would suffice.
> 
> Unless you are interested in future-proofing in case you may add more receivers beyond 8 tuners.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


ok i purchased one and it come with the power inserter and a 8 way splitter, so i can run a cable from the lnb straight o the 8way splitter ?


----------



## bobnielsen

You don't need the splitter. Run the cable from the SWiM LNB to the PI and then to the HR44.


----------



## HoTat2

bobnielsen said:


> You don't need the splitter. Run the cable from the SWiM LNB to the PI and then to the HR44.


Well, though an 8-way is a bit much, he needs a splitter to connect the mini client and the WVB to the Genie as server.

So yes, to the TS: run a single coax line from the SWiM LNB to the input of the splitter and make sure if the PI is placed somewhere downstream of the splitter, it is on the coax run that connects to the red colored power passing port od the splitter.

Connect the Genie, mini client, and WVB to the output ports and make sure to terminate all unused output ports.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## tonyc

HoTat2 said:


> Well, though an 8-way is a bit much, he needs a splitter to connect the mini client and the WVB to the Genie as server.
> 
> So yes, to the TS: run a single coax line from the SWiM LNB to the input of the splitter and make sure if the PI is placed somewhere downstream of the splitter, it is on the coax run that connects to the red colored power passing port od the splitter.
> 
> Connect the Genie, mini client, and WVB to the output ports and make sure to terminate all unused output ports.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Got it, Thank you


----------



## loudo

I changed my LNB 3 for a LNB 13. I couldn't believe how simple t was to change it out. Didn't even need a tool, and took me all of 3 minutes to do.


----------



## HoTat2

loudo said:


> I changed my LNB 3 for a LNB 13. I couldn't believe how simple t was to change it out. Didn't even need a tool, and took me all of 3 minutes to do.


Thus the advantage of the newer quick release feedhorn design ... 

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## jimmie57

loudo said:


> I changed my LNB 3 for a LNB 13. I couldn't believe how simple t was to change it out. Didn't even need a tool, and took me all of 3 minutes to do.


I think the coax connections are supposed to be tightened slightly with a wrench to keep the water out of them.
?????????

Installer please verify or deny.


----------



## carl6

There are rubber boots to be used when the connector is outdoors or exposed to weather. That is what is supposed to keep water out. It seems to be a fairly common practice to just slightly tighten with a wrench, but a firm finger tight is also sufficient. A properly tightened connector is necessary for proper signal carriage and impedance matching, as opposed to water proofing. Some recommend finger tight plus 1/8 of a turn, but if it is properly finger tight to start with, 1/8th turn can result in excessive torque (in the 30 to 45 inch-pound range). So any wrench tightening needs to be very gentle.


----------



## loudo

jimmie57 said:


> I think the coax connections are supposed to be tightened slightly with a wrench to keep the water out of them.
> ?????????
> 
> Installer please verify or deny.


Correct, I did go back and tighten them, with pliers, but to remove and replace the LNB all I had to do was flip the quick release, slide the old one out and insert the new one. I should have said no tools needed to remove and install the LNB. My bad.


----------



## jimmie57

loudo said:


> Correct, I did go back and tighten them, with pliers, but to remove and replace the LNB all I had to do was flip the quick release, slide the old one out and insert the new one. I should have said no tools needed to remove and install the LNB. My bad.


Thanks for the update. Glad it was easy for you.


----------



## tonyc

HoTat2 said:


> Well, though an 8-way is a bit much, he needs a splitter to connect the mini client and the WVB to the Genie as server.
> 
> So yes, to the TS: run a single coax line from the SWiM LNB to the input of the splitter and make sure if the PI is placed somewhere downstream of the splitter, it is on the coax run that connects to the red colored power passing port od the splitter.
> 
> Connect the Genie, mini client, and WVB to the output ports and make sure to terminate all unused output ports.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


I just saw that i currently have a 4way splitter i will use that, my question is evry thing is connected up in my attic which in southern california gets very hot , os now that i will be able to eliminate the swim -16 i would like the move the power inverter downstairs so can connect it to the hr44?


----------



## HoTat2

tonyc said:


> I just saw that i currently have a 4way splitter i will use that, my question is evry thing is connected up in my attic which in southern california gets very hot , os now that i will be able to eliminate the swim -16 i would like the move the power inverter downstairs so can connect it to the hr44?


Yes, the Power "Inserter" (not Inverter) can indeed be connected downstairs "at" or "near" (not to) the HR44 Genie. 

As long as the coax run to the Genie is on the red power passing port of the splitter.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## tonyc

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, the Power "Inserter" (not Inverter) can indeed be connected downstairs "at" or "near" (not to) the HR44 Genie.
> 
> As long as the coax run to the Genie is on the red power passing port of the splitter.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


The power *inserter* :grin: has two coax connections, the one end that reads To IRD that would be the one to connect to the genie, and the red power pass connects to the 4 way splitter with the red end correct ?


----------



## HoTat2

tonyc said:


> The power *inserter* :grin: has two coax connections, the one end that reads To IRD that would be the one to connect to the genie, and the red power pass connects to the 4 way splitter with the red end correct ?


Yep ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## tonyc

HoTat2 said:


> Yep ...
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Thank you so much :righton: I had to clarify because right now i have 4 cables coming in from the the dish to a swim-16, then one cable out to power inserter than from the power inserter to the 4 way splitter than out to genie ,mini and WVB.
see how i could be a bit confused :grin:


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## slice1900

There's nothing stopping you from connecting the PI elsewhere with a SWM16. The SWM1 port also takes power, so anywhere you could put the PI with a SWM 13 LNB you could do so with a SMW16.


----------



## nsykes

Just wondering if anyone knows if this will be released soon as it seems as if the availability of them has fizzled. I realize people's thoughts of them appearing on eBay but it is as if they have stopped manufacturing them. The only place I have found them now is on Amazon for about $90! I am glad I got mine for about $30.

I guess my question is, is this LNB done and won't be made available for public release or will we see them on such sites as Solid Signal soon?


----------



## slice1900

I said before I thought it was a dead product that would never be released because it doesn't support RDBS and was strangely limited to only 13 tuners. If availability of the SWM 13 is drying up, that's a good sign that its replacement is soon to arrive. I think they were just burning through excess inventory of the first gen DSWM chips used in the DSWM 13 switch.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> I said before I thought it was a dead product that would never be released because it doesn't support RDBS and was strangely limited to only 13 tuners. If availability of the SWM 13 is drying up, that's a good sign that its replacement is soon to arrive. I think they were just burning through excess inventory of the first gen DSWM chips used in the DSWM 13 switch.


Yeah ...

Made sense for the DSWM-13 module used in DRE installs to limit it to 13 tuners because of the distance restriction of the MoCA networking signal caused by loop-thru architecture for connecting the receivers would place a restriction on the number of tuners it can reasonably support.

But for the homerun architecture used in residential installs, there is really no good reasons to stop at only 13 tuners.

Plus as you say, no RDBS capability makes it even less acceptable as a future LNBF.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## scottb8888

So anyone hear what the replacement for the SWM13 LNB will be??


----------



## longrider

scottb8888 said:


> So anyone hear what the replacement for the SWM13 LNB will be??


The normal answer to that is that until DirecTV makes a public announcement anybody who does know can't say anything.


----------



## inkahauts

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah ...
> 
> Made sense for the DSWM-13 module used in DRE installs to limit it to 13 tuners because of the distance restriction of the MoCA networking signal caused by loop-thru architecture for connecting the receivers would place a restriction on the number of tuners it can reasonably support.
> 
> But for the homerun architecture used in residential installs, there is really no good reasons to stop at only 13 tuners.
> 
> Plus as you say, no RDBS capability makes it even less acceptable as a future LNBF.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


If they could make it able to Handel 20 or more tuners we could see them allow up to four genies! 

And I don't see the point of releasing anything to the masses that can't do bss as well. I have no clue if the old one did or not.


----------



## Laxguy

inkahauts said:


> If they could make it able to Handel 20 or more tuners we could see them allow up to four genies!


Take that Bach!

:hurah:

In some seriousness, they could but they won't!


----------



## palmgrower

Wish I had more than one "Genie"


----------



## slice1900

If the Genie limitation was tuner based, they'd let you have two if you had a SWM16.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> If the Genie limitation was tuner based, they'd let you have two if you had a SWM16.


I was led to believe that the main problem with multiple Genies had to do with any mini clients connected to a Genie losing the RVU connection should it's parent Genie need to reboot. And then getting confused afterwards trying to reconnect to the wrong Genie.

But I really don't understand that if Dish can design their system to have two Hoppers and it's Joey clients manage to retain connection to the correct Hopper even if it reboots. Why can't DIRECTV figure out a way to do this by now with two Genies?


----------



## stvcmty

HoTat2 said:


> I was led to believe that the main problem with multiple Genies had to do with any mini clients connected to a Genie losing the RVU connection should it's parent Genie need to reboot. And then getting confused afterwards trying to reconnect to the wrong Genie.
> 
> But I really don't understand that if Dish can design their system to have two Hoppers and it's Joey clients manage to retain connection to the correct Hopper even if it reboots. Why can't DIRECTV figure out a way to do this by now with two Genies?


Is there enough bandwidth in a 2-genie 6-client DECA/MoCA network for 6 things to be streaming from Genies to all the Clients at the same time?

I imagine the worst case for trying to saturate the DECA/MoCA would be:
All 6 mini clients watching something.
Both genies streaming different on demand shows from the internet (with the coax network to customer router connection being made with a CCK).
A genie GO pulling stuff off the genies.
All at the same time.


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> But I really don't understand that if Dish can design their system to have two Hoppers and it's Joey clients manage to retain connection to the correct Hopper even if it reboots. Why can't DIRECTV figure out a way to do this by now with two Genies?


Clearly they could do it if they wanted, it is just software. They have made the choice not to do so.


----------



## slice1900

stvcmty said:


> Is there enough bandwidth in a 2-genie 6-client DECA/MoCA network for 6 things to be streaming from Genies to all the Clients at the same time?
> 
> I imagine the worst case for trying to saturate the DECA/MoCA would be:
> All 6 mini clients watching something.
> Both genies streaming different on demand shows from the internet (with the coax network to customer router connection being made with a CCK).
> A genie GO pulling stuff off the genies.
> All at the same time.


Directv's HD channels average about 6.5 Mbps, based on them putting 6 into a transponder with 39.5 Mbps of bandwidth. MoCA 1.1 that Directv uses for 'DECA' can do like 140 Mbps or 175 Mbps, can't remember which. Even at the limit of 16 MoCA nodes in the same coax segment they're fine. It isn't bandwidth, either.


----------



## inkahauts

Actually, doing the math, 4 genies with three clients each is equal to 16 nodes.. which is the limit per deca network. Although for big systems we all know there's plenty of ways around that limit.

And i think the issues with multiple genies are more of a, we will get to them when we need to and we don't need to till all the 2 tuner dvrs are no longer collectible and we have run through our inventory...


----------



## scottb8888

So this thread has been qute. What's the next LNB coming out. I want to try it!


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## P Smith

scottb8888 said:


> So this thread has been qute. What's the next LNB coming out. I want to try it!


just wait for new thread!


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## slice1900

Since the SWM 13 LNB never made it past test markets, it is safe to assume that a new and improved LNB that receives RDBS is in some sort of testing right now. As for when it comes out, who knows. Directv will decide when they are ready, could be tomorrow, could be six months from now.


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## loudo

slice1900 said:


> Since the SWM 13 LNB never made it past test markets, it is safe to assume that a new and improved LNB that receives RDBS is in some sort of testing right now. As for when it comes out, who knows. Directv will decide when they are ready, could be tomorrow, could be six months from now.


There are a few of them out there for sale. I just bought on recently.


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## slice1900

loudo said:


> There are a few of them out there for sale. I just bought on recently.


The ones on eBay presumably came via or were intended for those test markets. Directv never released it nationally, and since it has been almost a year since it went into the test markets, it is pretty reasonable to assume that like I thought it will never be broadly released but was intended as a way to burn off excess inventory of chips built for the DSWM13.


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## Lotus99

Hi I got the swm 13 and its hooked up. Main tv works but other tvs aren't finding signal is there something in setup we have to change? Appreciate any help we are trying to get it set up now. Thanks


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## inkahauts

Did you have swim before? You may need to rerun sat setup on all your boxes and make sure there are no bbcs connected as well.


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## Lotus99

Yeah it was bbcs thank you very much.


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## inkahauts

Excellent. Glad it's fixed!


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## studechip

I have one of the swm13s and it works quite well. One interesting thing about it is when checking signal strength, if I go from the 99ca panel to the 119 I get all zeros, naturally. If I go from 101 to 110 to 119, I get signal strengths in the high 90s and 100!


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## bobnielsen

studechip said:


> I have one of the swm13s and it works quite well. One interesting thing about it is when checking signal strength, if I go from the 99ca panel to the 119 I get all zeros, naturally. If I go from 101 to 110 to 119, I get signal strengths in the high 90s and 100!


Since the SWM13 only has 3 LNBs, you should not see any entries for 110 or 119. Your system configuration needs updating, which can be done via Menu-Settings & Help-Settings-Sat & Antenna-Repeat Satellite Setup. Select Dish Type 19: Slimline-3DS (DSWM).


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## studechip

bobnielsen said:


> Since the SWM13 only has 3 LNBs, you should not see any entries for 110 or 119. Your system configuration needs updating, which can be done via Menu-Settings & Help-Settings-Sat & Antenna-Repeat Satellite Setup. Select Dish Type 19: Slimline-3DS (DSWM).


It is configured correctly.


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## studechip

I figured it out. Going to satellite setup showed the right settings so they were auto detected, but you have to "continue" to verify them, then it removed 110 and 119 from the ss screens.


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## scottb8888

Still searching for replacement of SWM-13


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## WestDC

scottb8888 said:


> Still searching for replacement of SWM-13


Does this help?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIRECTV-DSWM-LNB-SWM-13-TUNER-LNB-21v-POWER-8-WAY-SPLITTER-3D1LNBR0-01-NEW-/131474267312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9c7a1cb0


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## palmgrower

Great Price


----------



## bakers12

WestDC said:


> Does this help?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIRECTV-DSWM-LNB-SWM-13-TUNER-LNB-21v-POWER-8-WAY-SPLITTER-3D1LNBR0-01-NEW-/131474267312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9c7a1cb0


I have had very good results when ordering DirecTV parts from modems11, who happens to be the seller in this case.


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## studechip

bakers12 said:


> I have had very good results when ordering DirecTV parts from modems11, who happens to be the seller in this case.


As have I. He went out of his way to make sure my buying experience was a good one.


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## scottb8888

Thanks. I meant what is the replacement for the SWM13? Has anyone heard since they are not really deploying the 13??


----------



## HoTat2

scottb8888 said:


> Thanks. I meant what is the replacement for the SWM13? Has anyone heard since they are not really deploying the 13??


In a big FWIW anyway;

Some Directv techs. breaking with their NDAs on the "other" forum claim to have been informed it will be a SWiM-22 LNB with R-band capability currently undergoing field testing.

You can assign to that what value you will though. ..

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## tomspeer46

HoTat2 said:


> In a big FWIW anyway;
> 
> Some Directv techs. breaking with their NDAs on the "other" forum claim to have been informed it will be a SWiM-22 LNB with R-band capability currently undergoing field testing.
> 
> You can assign to that what value you will though. ..
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


If that is true, then maybe there is some hope for support for multiple Genies on an account.


----------



## HoTat2

tomspeer46 said:


> If that is true, then maybe there is some hope for support for multiple Genies on an account.


And/or perhaps a cheaper, cleaner (due to the elimination of a 4 cable run to an ext. MS), and more capable (with support for 6 more tuners and R-band capable) replacement for the SWiM-16 MS ....

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> And/or perhaps a cheaper, cleaner (due to the elimination of a 4 cable run to an ext. MS), and more capable (with support for 6 more tuners and R-band capable) replacement for the SWiM-16 MS ....


I can't see any reason why the SWM16 shouldn't be compatible with a R-band legacy LNB, whatever form it takes. SWM switches work on IF frequencies so it doesn't matter what the original frequency was. Of course it would make sense to update the SWM8/16/32 with newer technology since DSWM is cheaper and more capable, but there are a lot of SWMs deployed in installs too big for even a 22 tuner LNB that are working fine. If a MDU in a building with 200 units had one customer who wanted to get 4K, that should only require replacing the LNB, it shouldn't require replacing SWMs throughout the building...or any, if that customer had no more than 8 tuners.

I don't know if the building owner or Directv eats the cost of MDU installation/upgrades, but either way Directv has a strong incentive to design things so that cost is minimized. Making the legacy LNB a little more expensive (dropping the guard bands between 500 MHz IF blocks) is the simplest way, but going with more coaxes would work too, and I strongly suspect the VCOs in existing SWMs have a larger range than needed so they'd work fine if the top IF frequency was increased instead.


----------



## inkahauts

I suspect the standard will become a new swim lnb even for upgrades to 4k. It's cleaner and I bet uses less power. That swim16 runs extremely hot too...

I think they will have a non swim lnb that gets r band but that it will be only allowed if there are more than 22 tuners if the 22 tuners is right. 

What's more curios for me is if there will be both 3lnb and 5 lnb versions. And how they will Handel the 95stuff.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

inkahauts said:


> I suspect the standard will become a new swim lnb even for upgrades to 4k. It's cleaner and I bet uses less power. That swim16 runs extremely hot too...
> 
> I think they will have a non swim lnb that gets r band but that it will be only allowed if there are more than 22 tuners if the 22 tuners is right.
> 
> What's more curios for me is if there will be both 3lnb and 5 lnb versions. And how they will Handel the 95stuff.


MDU and commercial accounts may need a non SWIM LNB.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I suspect the standard will become a new swim lnb even for upgrades to 4k. It's cleaner and I bet uses less power. That swim16 runs extremely hot too...
> 
> I think they will have a non swim lnb that gets r band but that it will be only allowed if there are more than 22 tuners if the 22 tuners is right.
> 
> What's more curios for me is if there will be both 3lnb and 5 lnb versions. And how they will Handel the 95stuff.


My money is on a 3 LNB only. No need to worry about the 95* stuff because even if they keep a 5 LNB version there's no way they'll keep 95 around for new installs. They'll mirror that onto a couple RDBS transponders using MPEG4 SD. G3C will need to stick around for a few years until Directv phases out MPEG2 SD, but I'll bet once they have a RDBS LNB in nationwide distribution they'll never install another international dish.


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> My money is on a 3 LNB only. No need to worry about the 95* stuff because even if they keep a 5 LNB version there's no way they'll keep 95 around for new installs. They'll mirror that onto a couple RDBS transponders using MPEG4 SD. G3C will need to stick around for a few years until Directv phases out MPEG2 SD, but I'll bet once they have a RDBS LNB in nationwide distribution they'll never install another international dish.


Well, the key is the 95 stuff being moved, and I agree, i think it will happen too. The question is when.

And if we don't see a 5lnb version that that would lead me to think 119 will be absorbed to d15 etc as well, and that 119 may be reoreinted to PR after they move those markets getting locals on 119 to all hd first.


----------



## inkahauts

JoeTheDragon said:


> MDU and commercial accounts may need a non SWIM LNB.


Yep, which is why I mentioned that. Commercial accounts it may be much easier to keep the status quo for now, also for most MDU.s I wonder if we will see a swim22 switch outside a lnb, doubled up to be made a swim44. Kind of like the swim16 now. Also a swim 88 like a swim32 now. The issue when you get into those kinds of things is they would have some interesting deca limit issues should they not be connected properly with filters in the right spots. But think of how nice that would be for most mdus?


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> Yep, which is why I mentioned that. Commercial accounts it may be much easier to keep the status quo for now, also for most MDU.s I wonder if we will see a swim22 switch outside a lnb, doubled up to be made a swim44. Kind of like the swim16 now. Also a swim 88 like a swim32 now. The issue when you get into those kinds of things is they would have some interesting deca limit issues should they not be connected properly with filters in the right spots. But think of how nice that would be for most mdus?


Don't really see the point in that. The standalone switches are going to be low volume products since they won't be used in 99.99% of residential installs and smaller commercial installs won't require them either. What's the point in building a unit that integrates splitters and multiple switches, just let the installers deal with it or use Sonora's solutions for dense installations with SWM8s.

FWIW, even though I have more than 22 tuners, I'm thinking when it got to the point where I need to care about receiving RDBS I'd probably get a pair of SWM-22 LNB dishes. That way if one LNB fails I'm not completely down. I still have an old 72.5* dish on the roof that could be replaced with another Slimline (or whatever replaces the Slimline)


----------



## inkahauts

slice1900 said:


> Don't really see the point in that. The standalone switches are going to be low volume products since they won't be used in 99.99% of residential installs and smaller commercial installs won't require them either. What's the point in building a unit that integrates splitters and multiple switches, just let the installers deal with it or use Sonora's solutions for dense installations with SWM8s.
> 
> FWIW, even though I have more than 22 tuners, I'm thinking when it got to the point where I need to care about receiving RDBS I'd probably get a pair of SWM-22 LNB dishes. That way if one LNB fails I'm not completely down. I still have an old 72.5* dish on the roof that could be replaced with another Slimline (or whatever replaces the Slimline)


Well, there's plenty of mdus that could use a lot of tuners, if you consider how many might have genies. only four apartments vs say 8? That is a big deal per switch. less equipment. And this is assuming that the cost of these would be about the same as the swim16 or less now, so why wouldn't they update all the line to do the same? Saves a lot of money on sonar equipment and such in many places... In fact, if you look at it that way, these things could make a lot of installs easier, meaning they would be able to maybe get into some buildings a lot easier than before when they would have needed a lot more equipment.


----------



## john18

scottb8888 said:


> Thanks. I meant what is the replacement for the SWM13? Has anyone heard since they are not really deploying the 13??


I live in the Phoenix metro area. Two weeks or so ago I needed to upgrade from a SWM-8 and made arrangements with D* for them to install a SWM-16. On installation day, precisely on time I might add, a D* truck shows up but he has a SWM-13 LNB (DSWM) instead for installation instead of the SWM-16. I asked why and he said that SWM-16's are having problems in the desert due to heat and that here in Phoenix, in cases like mine, they prefer the SWM-13 LNB.

His supervisor showed up a bit later while the tech was here to record and document the installation and he said the same thing about using the SWM-13 LNB here instead of the SWM-16, especially on a west side of the house installation.


----------



## compnurd

That is interesting.... All 3 of my SL3 LNB's I had used previously for my SWM16 did not like the heat either... even here in pittsburgh... The dish gets the sun full on for about 12 hours a day and the signal levels would drop a few points with the heat then come back full late in the evening.. I have not had this issue since i installed my SWM13


----------



## scottb8888

any news about the replacement for the SWM 13?


----------



## slice1900

FWIW, I read something on the other site a while back that there was some sort of issue with the SWM 22 LNB that would delay its intro. That could be mean anything though - a delay in starting 4K broadcasts could be the "issue", or it could be some technical issue encountered during testing.


----------



## P Smith

Is there any reliable source of new coming lnbf? Trusting these... I wouldn't.


----------



## slice1900

Until Directv makes an official announcement, nothing can be considered truly 'reliable'.

According to Maxlinear's earnings call a couple weeks ago, they've pushed back the date they expect mass conversion from analog to digital channel stacking from Q4 this year to middle of next year. They have only one large analog channel stacking customer, Directv. So something caused Directv to delay their full scale conversion from the analog SWM LNB to the digital one. They also mentioned they were using their own DSWM chip, not the one designed by Entropic, but that the Entropic chip would continue to be used for a certain niche MDU market (i.e. the DSWM 13 used in hotels)

They also stated the digital solutions are cheaper than the analog. They mentioned a range of $5 to $7 ASP, from context it can be inferred the digital SWM chip is $5, the three chips used in the analog SWM are $7. Since Directv has a cost incentive to have switched already, they must have run into some issue...it isn't a matter of waiting until the cost lines up because that's already happened.

Directv probably can't push it back any further, if they hope to make a big splash with a lot of Summer Olympics related 4K channels.


----------



## Nitrowolf2

Anyone know what the next gen of dswm do? I just noticed during an upgrade they added more dswm option, with swm 5 now getting the dswm treatment. But i see a lot more after that one like gen 2 and a few other dswms


----------



## inkahauts

That is the first I have heard of that. Interesting....


----------



## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> That is the first I have heard of that. Interesting....


Yes, very intersting indeed;

Finally seeing some apparent movement on R-band and a replacement for the SWM-13.

There's now 3 new entries in the satellite LNB setup ...

#20: Slimline-3D2 (DSWM2)

#21: Slimline-3DR (DSWM2)

#22: Slimline-5DR (DSWM2)

My guess is the Slimline-3D2 is probably the direct replacement for the SWM-13 with maybe up to 22 tuner support as long rumored?

And the Slimlines 3DR and 5DR must be R-band capable versions of the Slimline-3D2 as far as up to 22 channel support.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2

New LNB selections not appearing on my Genie (HR54) as of yet ..

On all my HR24s ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts

I get the feeling it'll be a 13 channel swim unit still.. And I am a bit baffled why they would bother having a version without r band capability.

I wish it'd be at least a 14 channel unit though...


----------



## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> I get the feeling it'll be a 13 channel swim unit still.. And I am a bit baffled why they would bother having a version without r band capability.
> 
> I wish it'd be at least a 14 channel unit though...


Then why call it a "D2" for "DSWM2" if it will have the same 13 tuner support I wonder?

And I still wonder how large tuner applications with R-band capabilty like for MDUs will be handled without a conventional 4 output LNB type with R-band.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## inkahauts

HoTat2 said:


> Then why call it a "D2" for "DSWM2" if it will have the same 13 tuner support I wonder?
> 
> And I still wonder how large tuner applications with R-band capabilty like for MDUs will be handled without a conventional 4 output LNB type with R-band.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Second generation... Probably has different chips inside. Who knows, we can hope!


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> And I still wonder how large tuner applications with R-band capabilty like for MDUs will be handled without a conventional 4 output LNB type with R-band.


Well obviously they'll have a legacy LNB for that, I'm sure it will appear in the firmware eventually. They are probably more concerned with getting 4K going in residential markets first, before worrying about the MDU/commercial market.

The Slimline-3DS appeared many months before the SWM 13 LNB even made it to test markets, so I wouldn't hold my breath for to see R band capable LNBs in public release anytime soon. They probably need this entry to begin CE testing, perhaps along with a DVB-S2X capable Genie and 4K broadcasts on bonded transponders. If they're testing all that it's likely to require a lot more time than the SWM 13 LNB did...

The main thing I'm really very surprised about here is that there is a Slimline-5DR! I really thought they'd mirror all that stuff off 119 and drop the 5 LNB. I guess either they aren't going to do that at all, it won't happen for a while so they need the 5 LNB until then, or there will be some DMAs that have SD locals on 119 only for the foreseeable future.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> Second generation... Probably has different chips inside. Who knows, we can hope!


All the DSWMs so far used Entropic's first generation DSWM chip (capable of 20 tuners, never did figure out why the LNB was limited to 13) They had a follow-on, but Directv's second generation DSWM is probably the one made by Maxlinear. They mentioned in an earnings call they had a design win with a "major North American satellite company", and we know it wasn't Dish, so...

Though it is possible Directv is multi-sourcing since there's not only the one designed by Entropic (which Maxlinear bought out earlier this year) but Broadcom also has a DSWM compatible chip as well.


----------



## Nitrowolf2

Ill upload pics later, but we do have the gen 2 of dswm, they look different, but my superviser said they are thr exact same as gen 1.

It looks like a kaku lnb 3 though

Also at another upgrade, gonna force download on the hr24 but i dont see the extra dswm i saw from yesterday

Pics


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## HoTat2

Thanks for these;

Exteriorally at least, the Slimline-3D2 just lools like a sleeker profile over the 3DS and has heat sink radiator fins. The smokey transparent weather protective cap is the usual indicator for Eagle Aspen Co. as the mfr.

Has the same 13 tuner capacity huh?

I'm dissapointed then... 

Wonder if the R-band capable 3DR and 5DR ones will be limited to 13 as well? ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Thanks for these;
> 
> Exteriorally at least, the Slimline-3D2 just lools like a sleeker profile over the 3DS and has heat sink radiator fins. The smokey transparent weather protective cap is the usual indicator for Eagle Aspen Co. as the mfr.
> 
> Has the same 13 tuner capacity huh?
> 
> I'm dissapointed then...
> 
> Wonder if the R-band capable 3DR and 5DR ones will be limited to 13 as well? ...


The number of tuners the LNB is capable of and the number the receiver firmware tries to grab may not be the same thing. It may make things simpler to keep the 13 tuner restriction until they deploy the R band capable version. After all, the chip used in the SWM 13 LNB is capable of 20 tuners (19 less the guide channel) and we have no way of knowing whether that restriction is enforced in the LNB or the receiver. If I had to guess, it is probably the latter.

Assuming they use DVB-S2X in the R band and therefore do transponder bonding, they would need more SWM channels in that version, since each 4K channel would require two SWM channels (and referring to SWM channels as 'tuners' will quickly become very confusing..)


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## scottb8888

So there is a replacement for the 13?


----------



## P Smith

Nitrowolf2 said:


> Ill upload pics later, but we do have the gen 2 of dswm, they look different, but my superviser said *they are thr exact same as gen 1*.
> 
> It looks like a kaku lnb 3 though
> 
> Also at another upgrade, gonna force download on the hr24 but i dont see the extra dswm i saw from yesterday


did you read the post ?


----------



## HoTat2

scottb8888 said:


> So there is a replacement for the 13?


A 2nd generation one yes, but according to the sup. of the tech. who posted it's first photos here it has the same 13 tuner limit.

The apparently "R-band" capable ones, undoubtedly the meaning of the "R" in the SL-3DR and SL-5DR, have yet to appear, so no info. on what their tuner limits will be.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## tomspeer46

Has anybody looked at how they packed 13 (really 14) SWM channels into the spectrum available on the coax, and where they would have room for more?


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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> ...
> 
> The apparently "*R-band*" capable ones, ...


It cannot be.
R band is cover 1.70 to 2.60 GHz


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## HoTat2

tomspeer46 said:


> Has anybody looked at how they packed 13 (really 14) SWM channels into the spectrum available on the coax, and where they would have room for more?


I don't know if DIRECTV ever officially published the SWM13 or DSWIM-13 ext. module (for the DRE market) SWM carrier center frequencies.

But if IIRC, VOS eventually revealed that the analog SWM carrier spacing was reduced to half at 51.03 MHz and the highest frequency is now 1637.39 MHz. The lowest guide channel center frequency is unchanged at 974 MHz.

Therefore center freq. to cenrer freq. = 974 - 1637.39 MHz.

What makes the entire occupied spectrum on the coax uncertain from my perspective at least, is if the digital SWM has some kind of automatic frequency correction, inherent or otherwise, such that the SWM channel bandwidths need not match the largest satellite xpndr bandwidth of 40 MHz as the analog SWM does.

I think slice doesn't think so, and therefore contends some time ago that the digital SWM channel bandwidths are reduced to 36 MHz.

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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> It cannot be.
> R band is cover 1.70 to 2.60 GHz


Well ... of course the key here is "in context"
"R band" as shorthand for the "Reverse band." The 17/24 GHz BSS band.

Not the formal "R band" classification of the EM spectrum. 

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## dpeters11

HoTat2 said:


> Well ... of course the key here is "in context"
> "R band" as shorthand for the "Reverse band." The 17/24 GHz BSS band.
> 
> Not the formal "R band" classification of the EM spectrum.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


He's a stickler for the details. I found that out a few years ago when I neglected to specify West for a DirecTV satellite spot.


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## HoTat2

dpeters11 said:


> He's a stickler for the details. I found that out a few years ago when I neglected to specify West for a DirecTV satellite spot.


Yeah, but the problem is humans are always adding new terms and expressions for things and sometimes they overlap with previous ones referring to other things. Therefore in these cases it's really about noting the terms or expressions in context more than anything else.

Not try and act like the word police and insist they can't do that. 

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## dpeters11

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah, but the problem is humans are always adding new terms and expressions for things and sometimes they overlap with previous ones referring to other things. Therefore in these cases it's really about noting the terms or expressions in context more than anything else.
> 
> Not try and act like the word police and insist they can't do that.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Right.

For a while, DIVX was pretty interesting. Either the codec or the time bombed optical disc. Fortunately, we have context.


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Well ... of course the key here is "in context"
> ...
> "*Reverse band*." The 17/24 GHz BSS band.


That would nice to stick to it and avoid confusions.


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## slice1900

tomspeer46 said:


> Has anybody looked at how they packed 13 (really 14) SWM channels into the spectrum available on the coax, and where they would have room for more?


Like HoTat2 said, the spacing in the DSWM13 and SWM LNB 13 is 51.03 MHz, starting at same 974 MHz center frequency for first (guide) channel. So the 13 channel variants actually have a lower frequency ceiling than analog SWM. If you go up by 51.03 MHz after adding 22 more channels you get a center frequency of 2096.66 MHz, which would be the top range of a 22 channel SWM (22 + 1 for the guide) The chip is capable of 24, but they might not want to use that last one since it has a center frequency of 2147.69 MHz, which is perhaps a bit too high for Directv's receivers which have a tuning range of 950 - 2150 MHz. Hence why a SWM 22 LNB discussed instead of a SWM 23 LNB.

The speculation about smaller spacing came from the revelation that Directv will next year apparently be offering a "Digital SWM 30" switch in the MDU market. Assuming that is 30 channels on a single wire, the channels would require closer spacing of around 37.3 MHz or so to fit. I don't see any reason they couldn't space them that close or closer, because (at least with the DVB-S2 transponders on Ka band) they use a 20% roll off. So the 36 MHz wide transponder is actually only 30 MHz wide, with 3 MHz of roll off on either end that is effectively a guard band. Digital filters can be as sharp as required; if you double the computational power the guard bands will be half as wide. That means a slightly larger and therefore slightly more expensive chip which runs a bit hotter, but those issues aren't a factor for a low volume product targeted at the MDU market (with some overlap in the large commercial / McMansion residential market)


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## HoTat2

Wonder if the supervisor of the tech who posted the previous photos of the non-Reverse Band 2nd gen. DSWM or "DSWM2" LNB listed as "Slimline-3D2" in the updated LNB selection list was wrong about it having the same 13 tuner limit as the previous 1st gen. Slimline-3DS?

According to this excerpt of a tech. document posted by Scott (No source title of doc. given) on the "other forum," all 2nd gen. DSWIM LNBs, Rev. Band type or not, will have a 22 tuner limit as first rumored.









Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith

would be interesting to read original tech doc for the LNBF...


----------



## inkahauts

That's a rather big deal if it's real.


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## palmgrower

It would allow "Multiple Genie's",,yes?


----------



## HoTat2

palmgrower said:


> It would allow "Multiple Genie's",,yes?


From the standpoint of the LNB able to handle the tuner requirements for multiple Genies, sure. Assuming the 22 tuner limit spec. is correct.

But from standpoint of if DIRECTV will allow multiple Genies on an account any time soon though is another story.

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## texasbrit

palmgrower said:


> It would allow "Multiple Genie's",,yes?


 The existing DSWM13 LNB allows for two genies (as does an SWM16 multiswitch), so the arrival of a 22-channel LNB isn't necessarily going to make a two genie system allowable.


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## HoTat2

And as I posted on the "other forum" .... 

There's confusion here ...

From Scott's tech. document excerpt the new Slimline-3D2 LNB (P/N 3D2LNBR0-02) in the LNB selection list should have a 22 tuner limit as a 2nd gen. DSWM or "DSWM2." 

Therefore the Reverse Band models should have the same 22 tuner limit as well, the Slimline-3DR and -5DR, as they are also listed as 2nd gen. DSWM LNBs (Don't have their P/Ns yet of course. Perhaps they will be something like "3DRLNBR0-02" and "5DRLNBR0-02?" or maybe "3D2RLNBR0-02' and 5D2RLNBR0-02?).

Anyhow, still all references to the Slimline-3D2 on eBay as well as according to the technician who first published photos of it earlier in this thread (his supervisor told him) has it as the same 13 tuner limit as the 1st gen. model the Slimline-3DS (P/N 3D1LNBR0-01).


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## slice1900

Maybe the people who said it is 13 got it before the firmware was updated to add the 3D2 option. Until then the receivers wouldn't know to ask for more than 13 tuners so if they tried it they'd think it was also limited to 13.


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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> Maybe the people who said it is 13 got it before the firmware was updated to add the 3D2 option. Until then the receivers wouldn't know to ask for more than 13 tuners so if they tried it they'd think it was also limited to 13.


Good guess as to the cause of the discrepancy ...

The official First Look (assuming there will be one) shouldn't be too far away by now I would think, at least for the -3D2 LNB.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## cpalmer2k

Yes, somebody needs to test this thing out and see if it really supports 22 tuners.


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## HoTat2

cpalmer2k said:


> Yes, somebody needs to test this thing out and see if it really supports 22 tuners.


I might be willing to buy one and try it out as I have 15 tuners here, but I only see a few ebay sellers selling them in lots of 4 so far for around $100+ 

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## Rockaway1836

HoTat2 said:


> I might be willing to buy one and try it out as I have 15 tuners here, but I only see a few ebay sellers selling them in lots of 4 so far for around $100+
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Here's a single one for sale.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEWEST-DIRECTV-GEN-2-DSWM-LNB-SWM3-13-TUNER-LNB-3D2LNBR0-02-FAST-SHIP-/131637084569?hash=item1ea62e8199:g:IOgAAOSwo6lWKQ8G


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## P Smith

Yeah, good one - take it, free shipping to CA


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## HoTat2

Except now on the "other forum" a DIRECTV tech. who regularly post there revealing juicy inside info. on various new gear says it's definitely limited to only 13 tuners for now, but is firmware upgradable to 22 in the future, yet can't comment any further for now ...

So don't know if the purchase/test is worth the trouble right now ...

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## P Smith

I would say so, if it's really FW upgradable.

You could do the upgrade later and continue testing/using it, after you'll reveal what chips it using


----------



## Rockaway1836

HoTat2 said:


> Except now on the "other forum" a DIRECTV tech. who regularly post there revealing juicy inside info. on various new gear says it's definitely limited to only 13 tuners for now, but is firmware upgradable to 22 in the future, yet can't comment any further for now ...
> 
> So don't know if the purchase/test is worth the trouble right now ...
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


I looked at the document that, that tech had posted. If I'm reading it right, it looks as if firmware OABC may be needed to upgrade the LNB. I could be way off base on that assumption. However OABC has been in the stream on and off for a few days, with some Genies having it available more than others.


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## dpeters11

While I should feel worse about buying it than I do, and I have no plans for 4K, I went ahead and placed an order.


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## slice1900

I didn't see the tech document referred to on the other site that discusses the firmware update, can someone post it? Does it specifically say that there is firmware in the LNB, or does it depend on how you read it? That 0ABC firmware might simply be required as it 'knows' to ask for 22 tuners and there is no firmware update for the LNB itself.

Not that I discount the possibility there is firmware in the LNB that the receivers could update, but Directv's model in the past for SWM has been to put the 'smarts' in the receiver. I suppose they could have originally thought they wanted to limit the Gen2 LNB to 13 to match the first gen LNB (which we never really understood why was limited to only 13) but later decided to go for 22 to match the reverse band LNB and thus pushed out a firmware update for the LNB along with the receiver firmwares that added the 3D2 and 3DR.5DR choices.


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## HoTat2

dpeters11 said:


> While I should feel worse about buying it than I do, and I have no plans for 4K, I went ahead and placed an order.


How many tuners in your setup?

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## dpeters11

HoTat2 said:


> How many tuners in your setup?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Currently 10, with an eleventh in storage. I have the old generation, so really don't need it but for the price and free shipping, decided to just go ahead and pick one up.


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## HuskerHarley

What is the "Other Site" frequently mentioned in this thread?


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## P Smith

HuskerHarley said:


> What is the "Other Site" frequently mentioned in this thread?


Don't mention it here ! It's on "dark side" ...


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## dpeters11

P Smith said:


> I would say so, if it's really FW upgradable.
> 
> You could do the upgrade later and continue testing/using it, after you'll reveal what chips it using


So apparently he is now saying the firmware of the LNB itself ("educated speculation") would need to be updated. Does anyone know, does it get this from the receiver (like a client does) or does it actually have to be flashed in manufacturing etc?


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## studechip

HuskerHarley said:


> What is the "Other Site" frequently mentioned in this thread?


Satelliteguys.us. It's okay to use their name.


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## inkahauts

I've always heard that the swims are not upgrade able. That's why some have very old libraries vs others. I know my swim5 switch never once got an update. Neither has my swim8 or my swim 16s. 

I'll believe all this about the 22 channels when I actually see it. Maybe that swin13 lnb that is out now isn't actually a second generation but a second version of the old one and the 2nd generation one hasn't hit yet? We just don't know.


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## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> I've always heard that the swims are not upgrade able. That's why some have very old libraries vs others. I know my swim5 switch never once got an update. Neither has my swim8 or my swim 16s.
> 
> I'll believe all this about the 22 channels when I actually see it. Maybe that swin13 lnb that is out now isn't actually a second generation but a second version of the old one and the 2nd generation one hasn't hit yet? We just don't know.


Just that the part numbering for the 1st 3 characters would seem to indicate a 2nd generation DSWM or "DSWM2"

3D2LNBR0-02

3D2 = Slimline 3 DSWM2

LNB = Obviously "Low Noise Block"

R0 = Revision number zero?

-02 = Manufacturer code, Eagle Aspen Co.?

But anyway, I would agree that I've never known a SWiM module or LNB to be firmware upgradable.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I've always heard that the swims are not upgrade able. That's why some have very old libraries vs others. I know my swim5 switch never once got an update. Neither has my swim8 or my swim 16s.


What does the SWM firmware version / SWM library version show on those?


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## HuskerHarley

I feel much better now....


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## alnielsen

inkahauts said:


> I've always heard that the swims are not upgrade able. That's why some have very old libraries vs others. I know my swim5 switch never once got an update. Neither has my swim8 or my swim 16s.
> 
> I'll believe all this about the 22 channels when I actually see it. Maybe that swin13 lnb that is out now isn't actually a second generation but a second version of the old one and the 2nd generation one hasn't hit yet? We just don't know.


I would make an educated guess that the old ones were analog and the new ones are digital.


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## inkahauts

Oh we know that's true. The new ones are absolutely digital instead of analogue. But that alone doesn't change the question of somehow upgrading a lnb via a satellite pushed firmware update coming back to it via a receiver.


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## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> Oh we know that's true. The new ones are absolutely digital instead of analogue. But that alone doesn't change the question of somehow upgrading a lnb via a satellite pushed firmware update coming back to it via a receiver.


Yea, the "Digital" in DSWM or DSWM2 refers to the filtering methods used to create closer spacing of the SWM carriers so you can pack more of them within the standard 950-2150 MHz bandwidth of DIRECTV's receiver satellite tuners.

The digital communication and control methods for it over the 2.3 MHz control link however should be much the same as for the previous analog SWMs though.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Yea, the "Digital" in DSWM or DSWM2 refers to the filtering methods used to create closer spacing of the SWM carriers so you can pack more of them within the standard 950-2150 MHz bandwidth of DIRECTV's receiver satellite tuners.
> 
> The digital communication and control methods for it over the 2.3 MHz control link however should be much the same as for the previous analog SWMs though.


Yep. And that control channel runs at only 39 kbaud if I recall correctly. It would take quite a while to download firmware to an LNB at that rate, especially since that control channel is shared with all receivers so it can't use that link very long as it has to allow other receivers to be able to change channels. Though with two areas to store firmware (like most PCs have now) they could take as many hours as needed to upload new firmware at a snail's pace. Or add DECA reception capability to the LNB, and it could be uploaded much more quickly.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> ... Or add DECA reception capability to the LNB, and it could be uploaded much more quickly.


Now there's a thought. ...

Perhaps the MoCA compliant green lable sticker on the DSWM2 LNBs in this case means it actually has an internal DECA to connect to the coax network so it can exchange ethernet data over WH instead of merely blocking the networking signal from entering the LNB's circuitry with an internal BSF as the green lable on previous SWM LNBs signify.

And yes, the 2.3 MHz control channel was found to be spec'ed at 39 Kilobaud using FSK +/- 40 KHz dev. And since FSK has only 1 bit per baud, that's an aggregate data rate of only 39 Kilobits/sec. So taking into account overhead and sharing of the link with other receivers, actual data throughput will be even less. Much too slow for tasks like FW updates I would guess.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## slice1900

I thought all the SWM LNBs had a green label? Is this one's label different in some way?


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## Go Beavs

If these new LNBs have a built in DECA, it would almost certainly show up in the DECA test screens. It should be easy to find out that way.


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## inkahauts

The cost of adding deca would have to be tiny for them to even consider it. It really doesn't make a lot of sense unless there's more to it then being able to update a firmware one time to get more tuners.


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## Rockaway1836

Just curious. Who ordered the newer SWM13 LNB? I checked the offer last night, it said 7 had been sold in 24 hrs. I was one of them.


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## HoTat2

Rockaway1836 said:


> Just curious. Who ordered the newer SWM13 LNB? I checked the offer last night, it said 7 had been sold in 24 hrs. I was one of them.


dpeters11, yesterday. ...

http://dbstalk.com/index.php?/topic/213993-First-Look:-SWM-13-LNB#entry3396768

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## dogbreath

Ordered one myself.


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## lzhj9k

I received mine yesterday

Mike


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## P Smith

lzhj9k said:


> I received mine yesterday
> 
> Mike


Would you do "vivisection" of it ? To reveal a chip-set ?


----------



## HoTat2

Folks, post back after installation and try running the coax network test on a receiver and see if there is a new DECA node in the list

"Guide" + ">" Right arrow front panel buttons or continually hold the "Select" button on the HR54 until the System Diagnostics screen appears.

Not sure how to test the tuner limit unless someone has a setup needing 14+ tuners. 

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Rockaway1836

HoTat2 said:


> Folks, post back after installation and try running the coax network test on a receiver and see if there is a new DECA node in the list
> 
> "Guide" + ">" Right arrow front panel buttons or continually hold the "Select" button on the HR54 until the System Diagnostics screen appears.
> 
> Not sure how to test the tuner limit unless someone has a setup needing 14+ tuners.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


I have 31 tuners, I can and will move some wires around.


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## P Smith

[Loud thinking ....] WTH is the $35 ? I can buy and dismantle it to get out what chips inside ... If I would find original hermetic I could assemble it back.


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## HoTat2

Rockaway1836 said:


> I have 31 tuners, I can and will move some wires around.


Great!, look forward to hearing back from you the results ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Great!, look forward to hearing back from you the results ...


Then the main question - is new FW spooling now ? What would support 22 tuners.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Then the main question - is new FW spooling now ? What would support 22 tuners.


I'd say process of elimination;

Want to find out first if it's not in the current NR firmware 0x0ABC (still spooling out) or 0x09DD (completed it's rollout a while ago), since these are the versions that caused the new LNBs, Slimline-3D2, Slimline-3DR, and Slimline-5DR, to appear in the selection list of the satellite setup to begin with.


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## Rockaway1836

Mine is now out for delivery. Yesterday's mail got here after 4:30 which is a boarder line start time to be messing around swapping out LNBs. Plus it's been raining here pretty much all day. So it's looking like I will be at it first thing in the morning.

What I plan on doing is taking the unit over to my sister's house and connecting it there, just to get a SWM firmware version. Then I will bring it back over here and connect it to one of my dishes and an H44 which has OXOABC already. Then I will check to see what if any changes there are to the SWM firmware version. After that I will add receivers to the system to see how many it can handle.


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## TheRatPatrol

HoTat2 said:


> R0 = Revision number zero?


Maybe it stand for reverse band? 

What does having built in DECA benefit?


----------



## HoTat2

TheRatPatrol said:


> Maybe it stand for reverse band?
> 
> What does having built in DECA benefit?


The 3D2LNBR0-02 or Slimline-3D2 doesn't have reverse band. 

The two other new ones, Slimline-3DR and -5DR apparently do, except no one here (or authorized to speak at least if they have) has seen those yet.

And the benefit of a DECA enabled LNB is a practical way to upgrade it's firmware. Assuming it's needed for the 22 tuner support capability as one tech. leaked the inside info. on the "other forum."


----------



## DBSSTEPHEN

I seen on one of my friends H DVR receiver where it showed 99 RB and 103 RB what is the RB for


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## HoTat2

DBSSTEPHEN said:


> I seen on one of my friends H DVR receiver where it showed 99 RB and 103 RB what is the RB for


Well "RB" stands for "Reverse Band."

But what you should have seen are new signal level screens labeled "99(cr)" and "103(cr)," with all 0 levels for 18 xpndrs each.

The "cr" is for "CONUS REVERSE" as an abbreviation for CONUS beam xpndrs using the 17/24 GHz Reverse Band.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Lotus99

I have 5 TV's in one room. Genie, 2 mini's, and a H23 and 24 I believe. Sometimes even if only recording one show it says it has to change channel. I don't think I am making use of all my tuner space. The 1st gen 13 was installed over the summer. Maybe if I upgrade to the gen 2 it would fix the issue. The whole setup seems to be acting funnier lately.


----------



## P Smith

Lotus99 said:


> I have 5 TV's in one room. Genie, 2 mini's, and a H23 and 24 I believe. Sometimes even if only recording one show it says it has to change channel. I don't think I am making use of all my tuner space. The 1st gen 13 was installed over the summer. Maybe if I upgrade to the gen 2 it would fix the issue. The whole setup seems to be acting funnier lately.


Wouldn't it count as 4+0+0+1+1 = 6 ?
Anyway, new Digital SWM LNBF would be nice replacement of your old flaky, if (!) your cables, F-connectors, splitter, PI are good. And dish aiming properly.


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## Lotus99

I think all those are fine. I have a Satellite 8-Way Wide Band MRV Compatible Splitter(SPLIT8MRV) in my smart box. Anyway looking for excuses to try the gen 2. If it goes to 22 that would be great.


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## JosephB

There is no way that they put DECA support into the LNB. Just think about how big the smallest DECA adapter is. Then, consider that the LNB would need additional circuitry to process the data once it comes in from the DECA. It would essentially need to be a small computer with ethernet capability (since DECA is, at the application level, just an ethernet port that gives you TCP/IP connectivity).


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## dpeters11

P Smith said:


> Wouldn't it count as 4+0+0+1+1 = 6 ?
> Anyway, new Digital SWM LNBF would be nice replacement of your old flaky, if (!) your cables, F-connectors, splitter, PI are good. And dish aiming properly.


Either 5+0+0+1+1 or 7+0+0+1+1, but either one shouldn't be going over.


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## sigma1914

Installing a SWM13 tomorrow - what's the recommendation steps and such regarding powering and rerunning sat setup?


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## HoTat2

sigma1914 said:


> Installing a SWM13 tomorrow - what's the recommendation steps and such regarding powering and rerunning sat setup?


For the 1st gen. one?

Simple ...

http://forums.solidsignal.com/showthread.php/6837-Solid-Signal-s-HANDS-ON-Review-DIRECTV-SWM-13-LNB


----------



## slice1900

JosephB said:


> There is no way that they put DECA support into the LNB. Just think about how big the smallest DECA adapter is. Then, consider that the LNB would need additional circuitry to process the data once it comes in from the DECA. It would essentially need to be a small computer with ethernet capability (since DECA is, at the application level, just an ethernet port that gives you TCP/IP connectivity).


The size of a DECA is irrelevant (and if you broke it open you'd find it is mostly empty space inside) You can buy a fully functional PC in the form of a USB stick, which you'd think is impossible if you said "look at how big my Dell deskside tower is".

The digital SWM chips already have the circuitry needed - it has A to D conversion and a DSP which could handle the demodulation. Whether it is really worth it just to make it easier to upgrade firmware (if indeed that is even possible, which I'm still skeptical of) is debatable. The 2.3 MHz channel may be really low speed, but who cares if it takes half a day to upload the firmware since the LNB would be up and running while that is happening?

The main thing preventing it from being possible is that they'd need to have an additional input available to do the A to D conversion, have to be programmed to do the demodulation, and most importantly be licensed - that would add cost to every LNB just to enable easy firmware updates. I really really doubt that even if the LNB firmware can be updated that it is being done using DECA. I just threw that out as a possibility to overcome the slow speed of the 2.3 MHz channel, but since there's no reason they should give a damn about how long it takes to upload a new firmware image I see no reason why they'd go to the expense of adding DECA support just for that.


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## JosephB

slice1900 said:


> The size of a DECA is irrelevant (and if you broke it open you'd find it is mostly empty space inside) You can buy a fully functional PC in the form of a USB stick, which you'd think is impossible if you said "look at how big my Dell deskside tower is".
> 
> The digital SWM chips already have the circuitry needed - it has A to D conversion and a DSP which could handle the demodulation. Whether it is really worth it just to make it easier to upgrade firmware (if indeed that is even possible, which I'm still skeptical of) is debatable. The 2.3 MHz channel may be really low speed, but who cares if it takes half a day to upload the firmware since the LNB would be up and running while that is happening?
> 
> The main thing preventing it from being possible is that they'd need to have an additional input available to do the A to D conversion, have to be programmed to do the demodulation, and most importantly be licensed - that would add cost to every LNB just to enable easy firmware updates. I really really doubt that even if the LNB firmware can be updated that it is being done using DECA. I just threw that out as a possibility to overcome the slow speed of the 2.3 MHz channel, but since there's no reason they should give a damn about how long it takes to upload a new firmware image I see no reason why they'd go to the expense of adding DECA support just for that.


I didn't say it would be impossible, I just said there's no way they would do it. Again, you have to have an ethernet host capable of TCP/IP communications for it to work, and all that for the ability to upgrade firmware that they've never needed to do in the past? You'd be at the very least doubling (if not tripling or quadrupling) the cost of the LNB for functionality that in all likelihood would never be used. HDMI stick PCs cost in the range of $100-180, and a current SWM-13 LNB costs $70. Not hard to see that it doesn't make sense to add DECA-capable communications to the LNB just for that simple functionality.


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## slice1900

JosephB said:


> I didn't say it would be impossible, I just said there's no way they would do it. Again, you have to have an ethernet host capable of TCP/IP communications for it to work, and all that for the ability to upgrade firmware that they've never needed to do in the past? You'd be at the very least doubling (if not tripling or quadrupling) the cost of the LNB for functionality that in all likelihood would never be used. HDMI stick PCs cost in the range of $100-180, and a current SWM-13 LNB costs $70. Not hard to see that it doesn't make sense to add DECA-capable communications to the LNB just for that simple functionality.


I don't think adding DECA capability to a DSWM LNB would add more than a few dollars to the cost (mostly licensing) but when you multiply by the millions they produce each year that really adds up.

The current SWM 13 LNB probably only costs about $5-$10 for the chip, a few bucks for the analog components, and whatever the manufacturing cost of the rest of the unit. I doubt they are more than $20 wholesale. The gen 2 and reverse band ones probably do the digital conversion earlier (speculation, I have no proof, just assuming) and thereby replace some of the analog components, and thus may be even cheaper when they are eventually manufactured by the millions. So adding even $2 of cost with a capability that serves a minor purpose would be a significant cost increase in percentage terms.


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## texasbrit

HoTat2 said:


> For the 1st gen. one?
> 
> Simple ...
> 
> http://forums.solidsignal.com/showthread.php/6837-Solid-Signal-s-HANDS-ON-Review-DIRECTV-SWM-13-LNB


If you have a 5LNB SWM at the moment, make sure you rerun sat setup and specify the correct LNB. It won't happen automatically. Everything will seem to work, but of course your new LNB does not see 119.


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## sigma1914

texasbrit said:


> If you have a 5LNB SWM at the moment, make sure you rerun sat setup and specify the correct LNB. It won't happen automatically. Everything will seem to work, but of course your new LNB does not see 119.


I just have a regular SWM 3LNB.


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## P Smith

dpeters11 said:


> Either 5+0+0+1+1 or 7+0+0+1+1, but either one shouldn't be going over.


Oops, yeah, five tuners inside Genie, but how you count the 7 figure?


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Oops, yeah, five tuners inside Genie, but how you count the 7 figure?


If the Genie is an HR54 it actually has 7 tuners, though 2 are showing disabled for now. So taking into account for future changes when those two extra tuners are activated I would guess.

However, I personally feel those tuners will only be activated if a subscriber has 4K service that we'll be marketed as an optional programming sevice tier and the HR54 detects a Reverse Band LNB at the dish. Otherwise DIRECTV techs. would certainly have been instructed to make sure for sufficient tuner space requirements when installing the HR54.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Rockaway1836

Taking a little break before hooking it up to my system. Just returned from my sister's house after hooking the unit up over there. There is a SWM3 over there and there is only an H25 which is running 0x9dd firmware. The SWM firmware was 2.0.2.3 and library version 2.0.24

As soon as I connected the new LNB it recognized it for what it was, so no need to re-run setup. SWM firmware out of the box is 2.5.7, with library as 2.1.1.7

More to follow a bit later.


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## lzhj9k

Thanks for the update

Awaiting a tuner count.... come on 22...


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## P Smith

Rockaway1836 said:


> Taking a little break before hooking it up to my system. Just returned from my sister's house after hooking the unit up over there. There is a SWM3 over there and there is only an H25 which is running 0x9dd firmware. The SWM firmware was 2.0.2.3 and library version 2.0.24
> 
> As soon as I connected the new LNB it recognized it for what it was, so no need to re-run setup. *SWM firmware out of the box is 2.5.7, with library as 2.1.1.7*
> 
> More to follow a bit later.


Is that info printed on LNBF's box ? Or you got it after H25 recognized the model and updated ?


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## compnurd

I am all about having something new.. besides thinking this may have 22 tuners.. Anyone think it is a worthy upgrade over a current SWM13?


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## Rockaway1836

P Smith said:


> Is that info printed on LNBF's box ? Or you got it after H25 recognized the model and updated ?


Got it from the H25.


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## Rockaway1836

Looking good so far. I'm up to 16 tuners. Just got to re-run a couple of more wires, and bring a couple of DVRs back to 2 tuner. That will get me to 20.


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## texasbrit

Rockaway1836 said:


> Taking a little break before hooking it up to my system. Just returned from my sister's house after hooking the unit up over there. There is a SWM3 over there and there is only an H25 which is running 0x9dd firmware. The SWM firmware was 2.0.2.3 and library version 2.0.24
> 
> As soon as I connected the new LNB it recognized it for what it was, so no need to re-run setup. SWM firmware out of the box is 2.5.7, with library as 2.1.1.7
> 
> More to follow a bit later.


Yes, if you have an SWM3 LNB and install the SWM13 LNB it recognizes it straight away and you don't even need to run setup. You only need to rerun setup if it's replacing a 5LNB.


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## HoTat2

Rockaway1836 said:


> Looking good so far. I'm up to 16 tuners. Just got to re-run a couple of more wires, and bring a couple of DVRs back to 2 tuner. That will get me to 21.


Great work so far!, thanks for everything. .. 

Just hoping the 776 over-subscribed SWM error message doesn't popup on any of the boxes at least until it goes over 22 tuners

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith

Rockaway1836 said:


> Looking good so far. I'm up to 16 tuners. Just got to re-run a couple of more wires, and bring a couple of DVRs back to 2 tuner. That will get me to 21.


Not simple connection of devices, but run them - you'll need to start recordings on all available tuners.


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Not simple connection of devices, but run them - you'll need to start recordings on all available tuners.


What do you mean?

When a receiver boots up with the satellite coax connected the SWM protocol assigns it an available SWM channel for each of it's tuners.If not enough are available you get the 776 over-subscribed SWM error message on the receiver.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## lzhj9k

Rockaway1836 said:


> Looking good so far. I'm up to 16 tuners. Just got to re-run a couple of more wires, and bring a couple of DVRs back to 2 tuner. That will get me to 21.


Nice work :righton:

Thanks for all your efforts


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## Rockaway1836

I'm resetting the last of 3 DVRs to 2 tuner. That brings it to 22 !! I've got wires hidden all in the bushes, and running through my garage window it looks a total mess. But I wasn't trying to be neat. I will clean it up another day. :joy:


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## HoTat2

Rockaway1836 said:


> I'm resetting the last of 3 DVRs to 2 tuner. That brings it to 22 !! I've got wires hidden all in the bushes, and running through my garage window it looks a total mess. But I wasn't trying to be neat. I will clean it up another day. :joy:


Thanks again for the work ...

Wow, this is really the empirical scientific approach to matters. .. 

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Rockaway1836

Ran in to a little glitch. After adding the last DVR to the system, I retuned to my man cave (garage) to find one of the other DVRs was having trouble communicating with dish. I gave it a quick RBR and all is well again.


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## dpeters11

Now, do you have another one to take it over the edge and get an error on 23?


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## Rockaway1836

dpeters11 said:


> Now, do you have another one to take it over the edge and get an error on 23?


I might do that down the road. Right now I want to see how it works normally, before I start throwing it curves. I used an 8 way splitter, and have a port open. I can easily put another receiver on the system. But it won't be before next week! :roundandr


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## dpeters11

No, you're right. Good to let it sit for a while.

Very impressive though, not needing a SWM16 or some setups with two of them and going down to one LNB.

It also should mean less truck rolls for a larger setup when simply swapping out a box for one with more tuners since we don't have to worry about overloading a side. And that means a shorter contract.


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## P Smith

Rockaway1836 said:


> I might do that down the road. Right now I want to see how it works normally, before I start throwing it curves. I used an 8 way splitter, and have a port open. I can easily put another receiver on the system. But it won't be before next week! :roundandr


My opinion is the new config wouldn't conclusive without _using_ all SWM ports, eg watching/recording on ALL tuners of all devices.


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## HoTat2

dpeters11 said:


> No, you're right. Good to let it sit for a while.
> 
> Very impressive though, not needing a SWM16 or some setups with two of them and going down to one LNB.
> 
> It also should mean less truck rolls for a larger setup when simply swapping out a box for one with more tuners since we don't have to worry about overloading a side. And that means a shorter contract.


+1

And if it continues to work out, would certainly love to get one to replace my hot running (especially with the drout weather here in LA) SWiM-16. Unfortunately sister here who helps pay the bill  loves the early Christmas music on the H&H Sonic Tap music channel and DIRECTV for some weird reason only keeps it on the 119 satellite until after Thanksgiving.

So will have to wait for the Slimline-5DR to appear I guess ... 

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> My opinion is the new config wouldn't conclusive without _using_ all SWM ports, eg watching/recording on ALL tuners of all devices.


Why exactly P Smith? 

The "SWM ports" on I assume you're referring to the splitter, just divide power not tuners.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## dpeters11

HoTat2 said:


> Why exactly P Smith?
> 
> The "SWM ports" on I assume you're referring to the splitter, just divide power not tuners.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


I think he just means to test it not only with 22 tuners connected but verify that all of them are doing something, receiving picture on all tuners and not relying on the error message coming up.


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## Rockaway1836

I have a little trouble shooting to do. I was able to record 20 of a possible 21 shows. The HR24 in my sons room is only showing as one SWM channel available. I'm going to pull from it's location and connect it to another dish to see what happens.


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## carl6

Wouldn't you not only have to record 21 discreet programs, but somehow figure out how to verify they were all on different transponders/satellites? How do we know that two tuners are not using/sharing the same SWM channel/feed?


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## Rockaway1836

carl6 said:


> Wouldn't you not only have to record 21 discreet programs, but somehow figure out how to verify they were all on different transponders/satellites? How do we know that two tuners are not using/sharing the same SWM channel/feed?


I took a shot in the dark and recorded different channels on each box.


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## Rockaway1836

The trouble shooting did not go all that well. I moved the HR24 to a different dish and both tuners were functional. I then moved that locations wire over to the SWM13s dish and saw the same problem. As it stands right now I can use 21 of the 22 tuner capacity. I'm thinking now that maybe I should add a PI ? Or there could be a bad port on the splitter ? Any ideas guys ?


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## HoTat2

carl6 said:


> Wouldn't you not only have to record 21 discreet programs, but somehow figure out how to verify they were all on different transponders/satellites? How do we know that two tuners are not using/sharing the same SWM channel/feed?


But I think SWM still assigns each tuner a unique SWM channel on bootup to be used when the xpndr it needs is not on any other SWM carrier. But the receivers will tune to a SWM channel assigned to another receiver if the program it's seeking is already on the same xpndr of that SWM channel.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Why exactly P Smith?
> 
> The "*SWM ports*" on I assume you're referring to the splitter, just divide power not tuners.


I'm using original DTV terminology. So for SWM3: 3 ports, SWM13 - 13 ports, DSWM22 - 22 ports.


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## inkahauts

HoTat2 said:


> But I think SWM still assigns each tuner a unique SWM channel on bootup to be used when the xpndr it needs is not on any other SWM carrier. But the receivers will tune to a SWM channel assigned to another receiver if the program it's seeking is already on the same xpndr of that SWM channel.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


We have seen in the past if a unit is trying to record channels on the same transponder it might be sharing the swim channel.

Is suggest pulling up the mapping of channels to transponders that's here and then choosing channels that way. Just to make sure. 

Also I'd double check that ever recover shows it has the d2 swim lnb.


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> I'm using original DTV terminology. So for SWM3: 3 ports, SWM13 - 13 ports, SWM22 - 22 ports.


Well if DIRECTV said that then I guess context is critical to the proper understanding.

"SWM3" is generic for a Slimline-3S SWM LNB for 99, 101, and 103. Be it analog, DSWM, or DSWM2 types.

"SWM13" refers to the 1st generation DSWM (the "DSWM" above) Slimline-3DS, which has a 13 program tuner support capacity.

"SWM 22" refers to the 2nd generation DSWM (or "DSWM2" above) Slimline-3D2, which we're trying to determine has a 22 program tuner support capacity.

SWM "ports" just refer to inlets or outlets of LNBs, splitters, modules, etc., for distributing the SWM's signal power.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> ....
> 
> SWM "ports" just refer to inlets or outlets of LNBs, splitters, modules, etc., for distributing the SWM's signal power.


I'm taking the name from the horse mouth, eg from debug messages DVR's FW.
Actually, it's SW def too, have you heard about naming IP ports ? 

Adding to your list,: original technology is FTM; the "SWiM" word surmised as marketing move.


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## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> We have seen in the past if a unit is trying to record channels on the same transponder it might be sharing the swim channel.
> 
> Is suggest pulling up the mapping of channels to transponders that's here and then choosing channels that way. Just to make sure.
> 
> Also I'd double check that ever recover shows it has the d2 swim lnb.


Yeah. ..

May need to consult with Gary's TPN map and try recording a show on each tuner making sure they are all on different xpndrs.

And look in the satellite setup of the receivers to see if the "Slimline-3D2 (DSWM2)" is selected and grayed out.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## dpeters11

Excellent point on the transponders.

I wish I had the equipment to run my own tests. I have a friend that will be moving off DirecTV but I can't exactly use his 7 tuners on my dish to test it, and it would only bring me up to 17.


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## Rockaway1836

By my watch it's quarter past beer thirty. If some one wants to give me a list of channels to record or play at the same time, I'm willing to try it in the morning. In the mean time I have worked up a little thirst and am going to call it a day. Happy Friday everyone !


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## dpeters11

Maybe try these, though I haven't checked which package they are in, hopefully you get all these, tried keeping them fairly basic. I included channel #.

I think this will cover it, I put things on totally different transponder numbers, and when I did have to duplicate numbers I put it on a different orbital slot, just to be safe 

P Smith, any issue you see with this test list?

H2HD 271 1 D10 @103W
WeHD 260 2 D10 @103W
truTVHD 246 3 D11 @99W
HGTVHD 229 7 D11 @99W
WEAHD 362 8 D10 @103W
TCMHD 256 9 D10 @103W
FXHD 248 12 D12 @103W
USAHD 242 13 D11 @99W
NGWHD 283 14 D10 @103W
WGNHD 307 15 D12 @103W
BETHD 329 16 D12 @103W
TRAVHD 277 17 D12 @103W
DSCHD 278 18 D14 @99W
A&EHD 265 19 D14 @99W
foodHD 231 20 D14 @99W
CNBCHD 355 22 D12 @103W
FXXHD 259 23 D12 @103W
OWNHD 279 3 D10 @103W
FNCHD 360 8 D11 @99W
TBSHD 247 12 D11 @99W
CMTHD 327 13 D12 @103W
FBNHD 359 14 D11 @99W


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## sigma1914

SWM 13 installed and working well..... thanks to those who helped.


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## slice1900

compnurd said:


> I am all about having something new.. besides thinking this may have 22 tuners.. Anyone think it is a worthy upgrade over a current SWM13?


It isn't going to do anything different or better than the SWM 13 LNB or analog SWM LNB. If you want "new" for the sake of new you should wait for the reverse band SWM LNB to come out. At least then you will have the latest and greatest that won't be improved upon for a long time and be ready if/when you want to watch 4K programming.


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## lzhj9k

I too Installed my Gen2 DSWM LNB today

UnFortunately do not have enough installed hardware to determine 13 vs 22

Will wait for more testing of others with more installed hardware..


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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> But I think SWM still assigns each tuner a unique SWM channel on bootup to be used when the xpndr it needs is not on any other SWM carrier. But the receivers will tune to a SWM channel assigned to another receiver if the program it's seeking is already on the same xpndr of that SWM channel.


Unless the behavior has changed that's not the case. I used to think it would do that, but was told (by VOS I think) there was no channel sharing. I tested it out and verified this (at least with H20 and H24) since the H20 still has the SWM signal screen that was removed from the other receivers. A receiver grabs a channel when it starts up, and it continues to use only that channel no matter how many are watching programming on the same transponder.

Think about how the SWM protocol works - the receivers request a channel from the switch/LNB and are told either yes/no. Then they send the switch information about what polarity and center frequency they want. The SWM would have to keep track of who is watching what to know that a specific polarity/frequency combo was already in use.


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## sigma1914

Is there a way to tell if the LNB is gen 2 or not without removing it, like via menus?


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## slice1900

Rockaway1836 said:


> The trouble shooting did not go all that well. I moved the HR24 to a different dish and both tuners were functional. I then moved that locations wire over to the SWM13s dish and saw the same problem. As it stands right now I can use 21 of the 22 tuner capacity. I'm thinking now that maybe I should add a PI ? Or there could be a bad port on the splitter ? Any ideas guys ?


When you had that HR24 connected to the new LNB, was it was the last things you turned on? It may have got a really high numbered (i.e. high frequency) SWM channel that it had problems with. When you tested it separately and it got a lower frequency channel it may have worked OK. Trying turning off everything, then power up the LNB and that HR24 first by itself and see if both tuners work. If they don't move the HR24 to another location and try it there (i.e. in case it is a wiring/connector problem causing high frequency issues) If you get it working with both its tuners on the new LNB, then you should be able to power up everything else and have all 22 tuners in operation.


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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> It isn't going to do anything different or better than the SWM 13 LNB or analog SWM LNB. If you want "new" for the sake of new you should wait for the reverse band SWM LNB to come out. At least then you will have the latest and greatest that won't be improved upon for a long time and be ready if/when you want to watch 4K programming.


Unless you feel the more sleek low profile design of the Slimline-3D2 will block less of the incoming signal than the squarish more panel shape Slimline-3DS, but I doubt that will make any appreciable difference.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Tom Robertson

slice1900 said:


> Unless the behavior has changed that's not the case. I used to think it would do that, but was told (by VOS I think) there was no channel sharing. I tested it out and verified this (at least with H20 and H24) since the H20 still has the SWM signal screen that was removed from the other receivers. A receiver grabs a channel when it starts up, and it continues to use only that channel no matter how many are watching programming on the same transponder.
> 
> Think about how the SWM protocol works - the receivers request a channel from the switch/LNB and are told either yes/no. Then they send the switch information about what polarity and center frequency they want. The SWM would have to keep track of who is watching what to know that a specific polarity/frequency combo was already in use.


The only thought I have is that a new SWiM with new software inside might have new capabilities than we've seen in the past.

I have no information at this point if any new features have actually been added.

Peace,
Tom


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## inkahauts

sigma1914 said:


> Is there a way to tell if the LNB is gen 2 or not without removing it, like via menus?


Since these things automatically detect in the sat setup running sat setup should let you know which you have.


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## HoTat2

sigma1914 said:


> Is there a way to tell if the LNB is gen 2 or not without removing it, like via menus?


In the satellite setup LNB selection list, it should automatically select and gray out entry #20 "Slimline-3D2 (DSWM2)" for the 2nd gen. DSWM. And #19 "Slimline-3DS (DSWM)" for the 1st gen. one.

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## sigma1914

HoTat2 said:


> In the satellite setup LNB selection list, it should automatically select and gray out entry #20 "Slimline-3D2 (DSWM2)" for the 2nd gen. DSWM. And #19 "Slimline-3DS (DSWM)" for the 1st gen. one.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Thanks - it's a 1st gen Slimline-3DS, which is fine..... only need 10 now, 13 soon.


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## texasbrit

slice1900 said:


> Unless the behavior has changed that's not the case. I used to think it would do that, but was told (by VOS I think) there was no channel sharing. I tested it out and verified this (at least with H20 and H24) since the H20 still has the SWM signal screen that was removed from the other receivers. A receiver grabs a channel when it starts up, and it continues to use only that channel no matter how many are watching programming on the same transponder.
> 
> Think about how the SWM protocol works - the receivers request a channel from the switch/LNB and are told either yes/no. Then they send the switch information about what polarity and center frequency they want. The SWM would have to keep track of who is watching what to know that a specific polarity/frequency combo was already in use.


If that's the case, then it has changed. When the SWM5 multiswitch appeared, a few of us did some testing and managed to get eight or nine tuners working by recording from the same transponder. this was all posted on the forum but it's a long time ago.


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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Unless you feel the more sleek low profile design of the Slimline-3D2 will block less of the incoming signal than the squarish more panel shape Slimline-3DS, but I doubt that will make any appreciable difference.


I'm not sure it blocks any of the signal - consider where the satellite is in relation to the angle of the dish and where the LNB arm is located. At any rate, even if there was a few percent more signal that makes no difference. Maybe rain fade takes 0.2 seconds longer to hit.


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## slice1900

texasbrit said:


> If that's the case, then it has changed. When the SWM5 multiswitch appeared, a few of us did some testing and managed to get eight or nine tuners working by recording from the same transponder. this was all posted on the forum but it's a long time ago.


That would have been with a very early version of the SWM software...

The one place there might be some tuner sharing is within the same DVR - i.e. if you had a DVR and viewed/recorded two channels on the same transponder it might share the channel. Though I'm not sure what the point would be since it isn't like that would allow you to record two things (off the same transponder) and watch a third.

If anyone has an H20 and wants to test this, it is pretty easy to do (you'll have to use an 8 channel SWM, the H20's firmware doesn't know about the newer DSWM LNBs) since it still has the SWM channel screen. Pull up that screen and see what channels are in use (0s shown) and which are free (9x or 100 shown) Then varying what channels you are tuning on other receivers/DVRs connected to the same SWM and see what if any effect it has.

EDIT:

Oh yeah since the 99ca screen broke access to the satellite signal screen entirely, you will need to start up the H20 with the coax disconnected so it can't do that initial download from the satellite that gives it information it doesn't know how to handle. Then you can access the signal screen, including the one for SWM.


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## tomspeer46

I have my SL3D2 up and running, I am able to allocate 14 tuners My HR44-200, which is still on 0xa72 thinks it is an SL3DS, but all receivers are happy. I do not have equipment to try to load it up more. There is no firmware upgrade to the LNB, the ability to use more than 13 tuners is dependent on the firmware level of the receivers. 0x9dd for the HR2x receivers works with it, and I am told that 0xabc for the Genies is the minimum level. Perhaps there are only 21 usable tuners.


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## lzhj9k

I too have my SL3D2 up and running

I Have an HR-23 running SW 0x9dd
I have an H25 running SW 0x9dd
I have an HR-34 Genie running SW 0xabc

I disconnected my Power Inserter prior to installing yesterday..

I had to rerun Satelite set up on the Genie, HR23 and the H25 to get it to display the New LNB

It did autodetect the correct dish setting but displayed the previous set up (Swm-13 LNB)

As stated before, I do not have enough activated hardware to test tuner limits.

Thanks to all those who are attempting to validate capacity of this new LNB.


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## tomspeer46

I too, had to rerun sat setup to detect the new swm.


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## HoTat2

tomspeer46 said:


> ... Perhaps there are only 21 usable tuners.


I've considered that too, in that perhaps the guide channel may have been mistakenly been included in the 22 total count. But would like to see Rockaway first try slice's advice to power everything down, then after powering up the new LNB allow that last problematic HR24 to go first in the sequence of bringing the receivers back up so it may get the lowest SWM channel frequencies over that cable line.

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## Rockaway1836

I had occasion to power down and run it all again. This time the last to boot was an H44. It got the having trouble communicating message. The choice for me was obvious, the HR24 went to one tuner. The only difference is that it's the one in the man cave not the one in my son's room.

One other thing I should mention. I noticed yesterday that leaving the HR24 in dual tuner mode created problems form time to time. Even though only one tuner was being used it would every now and again get the communication message. Since setting it up in single tuner mode, there have been no issues.

Oh, and some one sent me a list to record. I was able to record 20 stations and watch one.


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## HoTat2

Rockaway1836 said:


> I had occasion to power down and run it all again. This time the last to boot was an H44. It got the having trouble communicating message. The choice for me was obvious, the HR24 went to one tuner. The only difference is that it's the one in the man cave not the one in my son's room.
> 
> One other thing I should mention. I noticed yesterday that leaving the HR24 in dual tuner mode created problems form time to time. Even though only one tuner was being used it would every now and again get the communication message. Since setting it up in single tuner mode, there have been no issues.


Were you able to do simultaneous test recordings on dpeters11 suggested channel list posted earlier?

Thanks. ...

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## tomspeer46

I sent Rockaway1836 a list of 24 channels that were all on separate transponders. He was able to record and view 21 of them.
The list would be attached, but some stupid ad keeps clobbering me when I attach it.


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## HoTat2

tomspeer46 said:


> I sent *Rockaway1836* a list of 24 channels that were all on separate transponders. He was able to record and view 21 of them.
> The list would be attached, but some stupid ad keeps clobbering me when I attach it.


Ok, so unless something squirrely is going with Rockaway's rather improptu setup here. It must be actually 21 tuner support for the SL-3D2?

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## tomspeer46

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, so unless something squirrely is going with Rockaway's rather improptu setup here. It must be actually 21 tuner support for the SL-3D2?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


So far, that would appear to be the case, His symptoms are similar to mine when I tried to put 14 tuners on a first gen SWM13. I don't have that problem anymore. :joy:


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## inkahauts

I would double check and make sure all the recordings will Playback too. But sounds like it's a great lnb so far.


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## JosephB

HoTat2 said:


> Unless you feel the more sleek low profile design of the Slimline-3D2 will block less of the incoming signal than the squarish more panel shape Slimline-3DS, but I doubt that will make any appreciable difference.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


The signal comes into the dish at what would appear to be a pretty high angle. It is not coming into the dish straight on in a direction that the LNB would be blocking any signal at all.


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## longrider

The LNB size will never block reception, here is a crude drawing of the signal path into the dish and LNB









Yes, I know my geometry is way off, I am just trying to illustrate the concept


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## P Smith

Your drawing is good enough to correctly show how offset dish is working and eliminate a concern above.


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## HoTat2

Scott just posted some more related info. to this thread on Satelliteguys.us regarding the HR54 and it's two additional tuners circulated to DIRECTV techs.









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## compnurd

Sounds like a Reverse Band LNB may be floating around


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## slice1900

I have no doubt of that. That's why they added the entries for it to the receiver firmware, so they could begin testing. When they added the "Slimline 3DS" entry for the SWM 13 LNB, it was about six months later that it was publicly released in some test markets. If the timeline is the same for the reverse band LNB, we'd expect to see it next spring. On the other hand, the gen 2 "3D2" LNB appeared almost immediately after the firmware entry was added, so it could be quicker (but I doubt it)

Since they don't really "need" reverse band yet, I think that's probably why there is still no sign of a reverse band capable legacy LNB. For the purposes of doing initial reverse band testing, SWM only is fine. We will know they are nearing the time when they plan to actually start using reverse band when we see a legacy version - otherwise if they start using it without that customers in MDUs etc. would be left behind.


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## P Smith

tomspeer46 said:


> Has anybody looked at how they packed 13 (really 14) SWM channels into the spectrum available on the coax, and where they would have room for more?


Per new DSWM2 traffic analysis, they still keep the step as 51.000 MHz (some freqs does show the value is 51.062 or 51.063).


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> ... (some freqs does show the value is 51.062 or 51.063). ...


Did you mean 51.0262 or 51.0263 MHz?

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## P Smith

I calculated missed freqs by implementing a "ladder": 51000/51062/51000/51063. Will see if it's the case.


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## HoTat2

Wait, let me understand here;

In this "traffic analysis" on a DSWM2 LNB you were able to get tuners 6 and 7 of an HR54 to be assigned SWiM channels too?

Which DSWM2 LNB was used for this analysis?

And then you extrapolated the "missing" SWiM frequencies (shaded in yellow) by constructing a ladder from the frequency separations of the known SWiM channels (in white)?

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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Wait, let me understand here;
> 
> In this "traffic analysis" on a DSWM2 LNB you were able to get tuners 6 and 7 of an HR54 to be assigned SWiM channels too?
> *-> yes; see my suggestion in a post#608 below*
> Which DSWM2 LNB was used for this analysis?
> *-> second generation*
> And then you extrapolated the "missing" SWiM frequencies (shaded in yellow) by constructing a ladder from the frequency separations of the known SWiM channels (in white)?
> *-> correct, adding to that: freqs are taken from the DVR, not from "of the know" source*


see above

After checking HR21, I got two other freqs right on the "ladder"


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> see above
> 
> After checking HR21, I got two other freqs right on the "ladder"


Ok thanks, good and interesting work so far;

But I don't get why the HR54 is assigning SWiM channels to the 6th and 7th tuners without connection to a Reverse Band LNB as the tech. bulletin I just reposted earlier from Scott on Satelliteguys.us explains? Shouldn't those.tuners still be disabled with zero levels on them and as "Not Aquirred"?

Also, shouldn't the chart have SWiM channel 14 (1637.375 MHz) in white as well?

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## P Smith

1) That's way FW written.
2) Yes, my mistake.


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## slice1900

I don't think that chart should include channel 24. Although the DSWM chip is capable of 24 since they are using a larger 51.03 MHz step (or maybe 51.00 and 51.06 alternating?) that channel 24 center frequency may be a bit too close to the tuner's max of 2150 MHz. That's why we hear about the 22 tuner LNBs instead of 23 tuner.


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## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> I don't think that chart should include channel 24. Although the DSWM chip is capable of 24 since they are using a larger 51.03 MHz step (or maybe 51.00 and 51.06 alternating?) that channel 24 center frequency may be a bit too close to the tuner's max of 2150 MHz. That's why we hear about the 22 tuner LNBs instead of 23 tuner.


Deleted.
I would reserve my answer before I'll set same number of tuners.


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## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> I have no doubt of that. That's why they added the entries for it to the receiver firmware, so they could begin testing. When they added the "Slimline 3DS" entry for the SWM 13 LNB, it was about six months later that it was publicly released in some test markets. If the timeline is the same for the reverse band LNB, we'd expect to see it next spring. On the other hand, the gen 2 "3D2" LNB appeared almost immediately after the firmware entry was added, so it could be quicker (but I doubt it)
> 
> Since they don't really "need" reverse band yet, I think that's probably why there is still no sign of a reverse band capable legacy LNB. For the purposes of doing initial reverse band testing, SWM only is fine. We will know they are nearing the time when they plan to actually start using reverse band when we see a legacy version - otherwise if they start using it without that customers in MDUs etc. would be left behind.


perhaps live 4k channels (I would guess before high efficiency muxes and/or H.265 video compression) will require two bonded transponder, eg two tuners.
At least for short period, we saw such contraption in SI table in channel's map.


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## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> I don't think that chart should include channel 24. Although the DSWM chip is capable of 24 since they are using a larger 51.03 MHz step (or maybe 51.00 and 51.06 alternating?) that channel 24 center frequency may be a bit too close to *the tuner's max of 2150 MHz*. That's why we hear about the 22 tuner LNBs instead of 23 tuner.


I wouldn't be firm on that, usually sat RF filters has a reserve for 40...50 MHz, for sure I know the fact for DVB-S/S2 cards.


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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Ok thanks, good and interesting work so far;
> 
> But I don't get *why the HR54 is assigning SWiM channels to the 6th and 7th tuners without connection to a Reverse Band LNB *as the tech. bulletin I just reposted earlier from Scott on Satelliteguys.us explains? Shouldn't those.tuners still be disabled with zero levels on them and as "Not Aquirred"?
> 
> Also, shouldn't the chart have SWiM channel 14 (1637.375 MHz) in white as well?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


There is a fat chance 4k live streaming would start on two Ka tpns in H.264 format. Perhaps for testing. Perhaps as transitional mode, before new mux/H.265...


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't be firm on that, usually sat RF filters has a reserve for 40...50 MHz, for sure I know the fact for DVB-S/S2 cards.


But whatever the case of 23 or 24 possible SWiM channels, what are we to make of Rockaway1836's inability to get over 21 tuners (or 22 inc'l the common Net. tuner) supported from the Slimline-3D2?

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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> But whatever the case of 23 or 24 possible SWiM channels, what are we to make of Rockaway1836's inability to get over 21 tuners (or 22 inc'l the common Net. tuner) supported from the Slimline-3D2?


I need to be on place or emulate his setup...


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## slice1900

P Smith said:


> perhaps live 4k channels (I would guess before high efficiency muxes and/or H.265 video compression) will require two bonded transponder, eg two tuners.
> At least for short period, we saw such contraption in SI table in channel's map.


They will, but they don't need to use that capability at first when they only have a handful of 4K channels. They will use one transponder per 4K channel initially. The aim is to fit three channels in two transponders so the gain from bonding is pretty minimal until you have a lot of channels.


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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> But whatever the case of 23 or 24 possible SWiM channels, what are we to make of Rockaway1836's inability to get over 21 tuners (or 22 inc'l the common Net. tuner) supported from the Slimline-3D2?


I think we'd need a secondary confirmation to rule out some sort of problem in testing etc. If it holds up then I guess it is a SWM 21 LNB. No idea why they'd drop a second channel, but if they did I'm sure they had some sort of reason even if we would likely never know what it was.


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## inkahauts

I wonder where they start the freq and if they left space for MOCA 2.0 maybe....


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## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> I wonder where they start the freq and if they left space for MOCA 2.0 maybe....


Supposed to be the same 974 MHz carrier center frequency SWiM channel for the program guide and SI data streams to the receiver network tuner.

I guess subtact around 12 MHz (half of 24 MHz) for the lower edge bandwidth of a stream from a Ku 101W xpndr.

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## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> I think we'd need a secondary confirmation to rule out some sort of problem in testing etc. If it holds up then I guess it is a SWM 21 LNB. No idea why they'd drop a second channel, but if they did I'm sure they had some sort of reason even if we would likely never know what it was.


If we would count system channel [#1, 974 MHz], then the count should be 22.


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> If we would count system channel [#1, 974 MHz], then the count should be 22.


That's another possibility I'm considering.

These early references to this DSWM2 LNB having 22 tuner support includes (mistakenly so) the 974 MHz SWiM channel for the guide and SI info.

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## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> I wonder where they start the freq and if they left space for MOCA 2.0 maybe....


They can't go below 950 MHz without dropping compatibility with most existing receivers/DVRs, whose tuners can only do 950 - 2150 MHz. That's why they needed a BBC. The HR54 probably can tune that range, so I'm kind of thinking there's a decent chance they use that space for the "Digital SWM 30" that was shown off at Directv Revolution earlier this year. They'd just work around the DECA frequencies and use the same ~51 MHz spacing. The HR54s would ask for those lower channels first, the others would only ask for what they can get, so if you had an install without an HR54 you wouldn't get all the channels only the 21 or 22 that were above 950 MHz.

MoCA 2.0 uses the same 475 - 625 MHz area for band E that 1.1 did, so unless Directv switched to band F like Dish uses it should be those frequencies. Switching to band F would be nice for two reason - one, you could have a MoCA 1.1/DECA "1.0" and MoCA 2.0/DECA "2.0" on the same wire for backwards compatibility with older hardware, and two it could coexist with OTA (not that Directv has shown much reason for us to think they would care about that as an advantage)


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## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> They can't go below 950 MHz without dropping compatibility with most existing receivers/DVRs, whose tuners can only do 950 - 2150 MHz. That's why they needed a BBC. The HR54 probably can tune that range, so I'm kind of thinking there's a decent chance they use that space for the "Digital SWM 30" that was shown off at Directv Revolution earlier this year. They'd just work around the DECA frequencies and use the same ~51 MHz spacing. The HR54s *would ask for those lower channels first*, the others would only ask for what they can get, so if you had an install without an HR54 you wouldn't get all the channels only the 21 or 22 that were above 950 MHz.
> 
> MoCA 2.0 uses the same 475 - 625 MHz area for band E that 1.1 did, so unless Directv switched to band F like Dish uses it should be those frequencies. Switching to band F would be nice for two reason - one, you could have a MoCA 1.1/DECA "1.0" and MoCA 2.0/DECA "2.0" on the same wire for backwards compatibility with older hardware, and two it could coexist with OTA (not that Directv has shown much reason for us to think they would care about that as an advantage)


Observing signals in multi IRD/DVR setup with SWiM , I wouldn't support your hypothesis. Basing on patterns, i would describe the protocol as a communication between a server (SWM part) and clients (IRD, DVRs) with a rule "first come - get a lock on lower SWM freqs" with no _demanding_ a freq in such requests.


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## slice1900

P Smith said:


> Observing signals in multi IRD/DVR setup with SWiM , I wouldn't support your hypothesis. Basing on patterns, i would describe the protocol as a communication between a server (SWM part) and clients (IRD, DVRs) with a rule "first come - get a lock on lower SWM freqs" with no _demanding_ a freq in such requests.


You can't assume that "first come - get a lock on lower frequencies" means that the SWM is in control. What if the receiver is programmed to ask for the lowest frequencies and work their way up? That would be a reasonable assumption that matches the observations equally well.

If you are able to observe the communication you might be able to tell. How much communication is there for the first receiver on a SWM with nothing active on it, versus the 10th receiver when most channels are already busy? If there's more, that receiver is asking for channel 1, then channel 2 and so on with the SWM having only the ability to say yes/no to a request.

Another way would be to stick an H20 on one of the new LNBs. Since its firmware doesn't know about those it only knows about the 8 original channels spaced 102.06 MHz apart, not the ones inserted between them. If it is only getting channels it knows about, it is obviously in control of the process. If it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, that would be because half the time the SWM is giving it one of the new channels it isn't able to use...


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## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> You can't assume that "first come - get a lock on lower frequencies" means that the SWM is in control. What if the receiver is programmed to ask for the lowest frequencies and work their way up? That would be a reasonable assumption that matches the observations equally well.
> 
> If you are able to observe the communication you might be able to tell. How much communication is there for the first receiver on a SWM with nothing active on it, versus the 10th receiver when most channels are already busy? If there's more, *that receiver is asking for channel 1, then channel 2 and so on with the SWM having only the ability to say yes/no to a request*.
> 
> Another way would be to stick an H20 on one of the new LNBs. Since its firmware doesn't know about those it only knows about the 8 original channels spaced 102.06 MHz apart, not the ones inserted between them. If it is only getting channels it knows about, it is obviously in control of the process. If it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, that would be because half the time the SWM is giving it one of the new channels it isn't able to use...


Nope, it's asking for number of channels and getting a response with numbers (IF freqs, port#). Bandwidth and low IF freq of a band [Ka-low, Ku, Ka-Hi) came from initial poll of SWM config.
Perhaps you should soak in the paradigm: SWM could be very flexible (in certain range) regarding IF, ports, channels, bands, etc, so IRD doesn't need to keep every bit of unknown config current RF upstream.


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Nope, it's asking for number of channels and getting a response with numbers (IF freqs, port#). Bandwidth and low IF freq of a band [Ka-low, Ku, Ka-Hi) came from initial poll of SWM config.
> Perhaps you should soak in the paradigm: SWM could be very flexible (in certain range) regarding IF, ports, channels, bands, etc, so IRD doesn't need to keep every bit of unknown config current RF upstream.


What are these "IF freqs." within the SWiM specifically?

The RF front end portion which generates the standard LNB down-converted 250-750, 950-1450, 1650-2150 MHz frequency stack prior to the A/D conversion stage?

And what does the "port" number refer to if you can determine?

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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> What are these "IF freqs." within the SWiM specifically?
> 
> The RF front end portion which generates the standard LNB down-converted 250-750, 950-1450, 1650-2150 MHz frequency stack prior to the A/D conversion stage?
> *-> yes*
> And what does the "port" number refer to if you can determine?
> *-> I did explain it before*


see above


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## HoTat2

Ok thanks ...

And on the "port number," got that too ...

http://dbstalk.com/index.php?/topic/213993-First-Look:-SWM-13-LNB#entry3397300

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## slice1900

P Smith said:


> Nope, it's asking for number of channels and getting a response with numbers (IF freqs, port#). Bandwidth and low IF freq of a band [Ka-low, Ku, Ka-Hi) came from initial poll of SWM config.
> Perhaps you should soak in the paradigm: SWM could be very flexible (in certain range) regarding IF, ports, channels, bands, etc, so IRD doesn't need to keep every bit of unknown config current RF upstream.


So you were able to decode the FSK and see the traffic - i.e. command to ask for N tuners, numeric responses back of IF freqs & channel number? Do you have this and the information exchanged in the initial poll documented anywhere? That would be very interesting to see!

Does the analog SWM operate in the same way? So long as there is sufficient information exchanged for each end to know enough about the capabilities of the other, a receiver capable of using SWM channels below 950 MHz would be able to receive them from a SWM capable of outputting them.


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## HoTat2

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree;

If P Smith has deciphered the SWM communication protocol over the 2.3 MHz FSK control channel as well as any possible control signaling done over the SWiM channels themselves, I'd love to know the details about it too.

I know the SWiM protocol for the European version has been openly published, but that one does not use a 2.3 MHz control channel. But uses 22 KHz tone and DC voltage levels for it.

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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, I wholeheartedly agree;
> 
> If P Smith has deciphered the SWM communication protocol over the 2.3 MHz FSK control channel as well as any possible control signaling done over the SWiM channels themselves, I'd love to know the details about it too.
> 
> I know *the SWiM protocol for the European version has been openly published*, but that one does not use a 2.3 MHz control channel. But uses 22 KHz tone and DC voltage levels for it.


It would be interesting to see good description of it. If it's not DiSEqC. DTV is using own FTM protocol. Unfortunately decoding the cmds could be done partially, on precedent base. If there bits//bytes not using by particular DVR, then you'll never know its purpose/values/meaning. I don't know why it's big secret and not published for testing/debugging purpose. Some adventurous people could make own test device/write own test procedures to do thorough diagnostic in multi-IRD setups...


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## slice1900

P Smith said:


> It would be interesting to see good description of it. If it's not DiSEqC. DTV is using own FTM protocol. Unfortunately decoding the cmds could be done partially, on precedent base. If there bits//bites not using by particular DVR, then you'll never know its purpose/values/meaning. I don't know why it's big secret and not published for testing/debugging purpose. Some adventurous people could make own test device/write own test procedures to do thorough diagnostic in multi-IRD setups...


Directv is using its own protocol, but the company that developed the Euro CENELEC EN50494 standard, RF Magic, also developed SWM (RF Magic was acquired by Entropic, who themselves were recently acquired by MaxLinear) That Euro standard is unfortunately one of those 'standards' you have to buy to read, so I wasn't able to find it online. It might be out there but would take some hunting.

I did find this which purports to be a next generation version of it, so it is probably similar to the actual standard: http://www.jultec.de/JESS.pdf

Also this which is more of a hardware level description, showing the chip used (RF5210) that is nearly identical to the RF5201 used in Directv's original (analog) SWM: http://defenseelectronicsmag.com/site-files/defenseelectronicsmag.com/files/archive/rfdesign.com/rfic/cmos_and_compound_ics/703RFDF4.pdf


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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> ... That Euro standard is unfortunately one of those 'standards' you have to buy to read, so I wasn't able to find it online. It might be out there but would take some hunting. ...


Didn't you post a link to a Chinese language version of it once a good while back?

Worked pretty well after Google translate.

Thanks for the other links ....

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## P Smith

Thanks for the references, I'll dig into that places; by fist glance JESS cmds doesn't match FTM, perhaps a content could be similar ...


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## P Smith

After reading EN 50494 standard (the PDF has just 30 pages total), I can tell you, it's not FTM kind.
While we are slightly off-topic, I'd like present new European standard "SAT>IP" http://www.satip.info/sites/satip/files/resource/satip_specification_version_1_2_2.pdf
Time to learn ... again.

BTW, STMicro AN2056 document has practically same data as EN.


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## doctor j

_Lots of speculation, so I want to throw out my selfish concerns!_

_To collect the weekly Channel Data , I have to use a legacy LNB with a DSS tuner card._

_My home setup is flexible and complex with mostly MDU equipment, just because I like to dabble with it._

_I split the 4 inputs from the legacy 5LNB and run parallel SWM (several SWM-16 and SWM-8 with PI/Polarity locker and Amps) and Legacy WB68 circuits with similar front end._

_Now my Questions:_
_Will there be a Legacy Reverse Band LNB?_
_Will it use Flexport 1 ?and 2 ?? Or How will Reverse band be "stacked" into present plans?_
_Will a firmware upgrade allow present SWM 16 or 8 to be used ?_
_Will a new SWM module have to be used, If not developed what will MDU setups resort to???_

_Am I going to have to have two dishes, One Legacy for Data collection, and One SWM Digital LNB for 4K._
_I have it all ready to go, just wondering how much reconfiguring I'll have to do._

_I know mine is a pretty unique setup but many issues relate to a lot of other system upgrades_

_Doctor j_


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## slice1900

This is all speculation, Directv has not announced anything official (when do they ever?)

There will be a legacy reverse band LNB. If they don't have one, then MDUs or large commercial installs will never be able to receive it, and they obviously are not going to lock out those lucrative markets.

As for when we will see it and how it will be stacked, we just don't know . IMHO it is highly likely to be compatible with SWM8/SWM16/SWM32 (without firmware upgrade, since those aren't user upgradeable) because two of out the three possible stacking scenarios can still use them, and the third probably can. More importantly because doing otherwise would require MDUs to replace every switch in the building when they swap out the LNB, which would be disruptive and very expensive!

There are three ways they could accomplish the stacking:

1) use one or both flex ports for the reverse bands, leaving the existing stuff where it is - everyone would need 5 or 6 coax for legacy. Not a huge problem since the 22 tuner reverse band DSWM LNB would mean very few residential customers would need the legacy LNB.

2) add the reverse bands higher in frequency (say 2350 - 2750 MHz) The existing SWM modules may already be able to handle that. They don't have any filters that would prevent it, so it would depend on the range of the VCOs that convert IF frequencies to SWM channels. Directv engineers will know the specs of those VCOs and thus whether this is possible, and if they planned for this possibility in advance may have even added a wider range as an initial design requirement. Splitters aren't a problem since even if rated for 2150 or 2300 like some of the common satellite splitters they will work to 2750 MHz no problem. Specialized gear like Sonora's amps that are rated for 250 - 2150 MHz I'm not so sure about. I don't think it is a problem but I could be wrong. I tried to ask Sonora about this once but got no response (they have answered other questions I've asked so whether they didn't answer because they don't know or because they didn't want to tip Directv's plans I have no idea)

3) remove the 200 MHz guard bands in the stack plan, and use that freed space to add the 400 MHz of reverse band so you still have four cables carrying 250 - 2150 MHz. This is the most elegant solution, and since each 400 - 500 MHz band has guard bands itself, this is easily possible. It would require more aggressive filtering than what the DSWM chips do now (or updateable firmware that knows where the transponders are to split them all out one by one)

Since the new legacy LNB is going to be produced in much lower volumes than the original one (which was used for every customer until the SWM LNB became mainstream) and will only be used by customers who are generating a lot of revenue, they don't need to be so concerned with shaving every penny off the cost. So I think in light of that option 3 makes the most sense - and might explain why it hasn't appeared in the firmware - since it would require a custom ASIC that may simply not be ready yet.


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## P Smith

During scanning at 99/103 (cr) screens, an IRD getting tuned to normal range of IF [250+ MHz], and I'm get 17.050 GHz when calculating LOF of the RB LNBF.

EDIT. Corrected an error in IF range.


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## slice1900

P Smith said:


> During scanning at 99/103 (cr) screens, an IRD getting tuned to normal range of IF [950+ MHz], and I'm get 17.050 GHz when calculating LOF of the RB LNBF.


What the DSWM LNB does has nothing to do with how the legacy version will operate. The DSWM chip the version 2 LNBs use has inputs that digitize in the range of 250 - 2300 MHz, the LNB has to use an appropriate LO to get within that input range.


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> During scanning at 99/103 (cr) screens, an IRD getting tuned to normal range of IF [950+ MHz], and I'm get 17.050 GHz when calculating LOF of the RB LNBF.


To clarify P. Smith;

Are you saying that when the 99(cr) and 103(cr) signal strength screens are being scanned by the receiver, the receiver is tuning for IFs somewhere in the 950-2150 MHz range?

But your calculated LOF of 17.050 GHz. for the Rev. Band would put the IFs between 250-650 MHz.

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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> What the DSWM LNB does has nothing to do with how the legacy version will operate. The DSWM chip the version 2 LNBs use has inputs that digitize in the range of 250 - 2300 MHz, the LNB has to use an appropriate LO to get within that input range.


But thought the RF front end of it though would be a printed circuit version of what to expect the legacy LNB to be on a much larger physical scale of course. 

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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> But thought the RF front end of it though would be a printed circuit version of what to expect the legacy LNB to be on a much larger physical scale of course.


Not necessarily. The RF front end of the legacy KaKu LNB and analog SWM were identical. The chip in the SWM 13 LNB has a bunch of 250 - 750 MHz inputs, so there was probably a bit of extra analog circuitry kind of glued on between the KaKu and DSWM to convert the KaKu's 4 inputs into the 10 the EN5400 required. The chip in the SWM 21/22 (gen 2 non reverse band) LNB has wide band inputs so it would also use an unmodified KaKu front end.

My guess is that the reverse band LNB will have a completely new front end. They could have just added a bit of circuitry to handle the reverse band, but it is a 10+ year old design and there are some improvements that could be made if it was digitized earlier - stuff like automatic gain equalization at the output would be handy, especially if it was per transponder. When they become available it should be easy to tell - if everything including the DSWM chip is neatly integrated into a single board it is a new design.


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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> To clarify P. Smith;
> 
> Are you saying that when the 99(cr) and 103(cr) signal strength screens are being scanned by the receiver, the receiver is tuning for IFs somewhere in the 950-2150 MHz range?
> 
> But your calculated LOF of 17.050 GHz. for the Rev. Band would put the *IFs between 250-650 MHz.*


Oops. I didn't recheck my notes and mistakenly typed by memory. You are right.


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## P Smith

slice1900 said:


> What the DSWM LNB does has nothing to do with how the legacy version will operate. The DSWM chip the version 2 LNBs use has inputs that digitize in the range of 250 - 2300 MHz, the LNB has to use an appropriate LO to get within that input range.


Forgot to mention, used HR21 with SWM8.


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## nsykes

I keep seeing comments on this post saying, "I removed my power inserter". Does the new 2nd Gen DSWM not require use of the power inserter?


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## inkahauts

nsykes said:


> I keep seeing comments on this post saying, "I removed my power inserter". Does the new 2nd Gen DSWM not require use of the power inserter?


If you are using a genie lite or a hr54, they now have PI's inside them for the dish lnb. Its a 21v one. Personally, I wouldn't use the internal one if I had any other actual receivers, only if I was using a genie and clients.


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## nsykes

inkahauts said:


> If you are using a genie lite or a hr54, they now have PI's inside them for the dish lnb. Its a 21v one. Personally, I wouldn't use the internal one if I had any other actual receivers, only if I was using a genie and clients.


So having a HR44 won't do the trick? Just wanting to make sure. I would love to remove the power inserter as it is an a small area and awkwardly setup. I have the newGen 2 LNB sitting aside but I just haven't had enough motivation to replace the original DSWM. This might do that for me


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## HoTat2

nsykes said:


> So having a HR44 won't do the trick? Just wanting to make sure. I would love to remove the power inserter as it is an a small area and awkwardly setup. I have the newGen 2 LNB sitting aside but I just haven't had enough motivation to replace the original DSWM. This might do that for me


No, the internal PI is only on the H44 Genie Lite and HR54 Genie. Not the HR34 or HR44.

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## stvcmty

slice1900 said:


> This is all speculation, Directv has not announced anything official (when do they ever?)
> 
> There will be a legacy reverse band LNB. If they don't have one, then MDUs or large commercial installs will never be able to receive it, and they obviously are not going to lock out those lucrative markets.
> 
> As for when we will see it and how it will be stacked, we just don't know . IMHO it is highly likely to be compatible with SWM8/SWM16/SWM32 (without firmware upgrade, since those aren't user upgradeable) because two of out the three possible stacking scenarios can still use them, and the third probably can. More importantly because doing otherwise would require MDUs to replace every switch in the building when they swap out the LNB, which would be disruptive and very expensive!
> 
> There are three ways they could accomplish the stacking:
> 
> 1) use one or both flex ports for the reverse bands, leaving the existing stuff where it is - everyone would need 5 or 6 coax for legacy. Not a huge problem since the 22 tuner reverse band DSWM LNB would mean very few residential customers would need the legacy LNB.
> 
> 2) add the reverse bands higher in frequency (say 2350 - 2750 MHz) The existing SWM modules may already be able to handle that. They don't have any filters that would prevent it, so it would depend on the range of the VCOs that convert IF frequencies to SWM channels. Directv engineers will know the specs of those VCOs and thus whether this is possible, and if they planned for this possibility in advance may have even added a wider range as an initial design requirement. Splitters aren't a problem since even if rated for 2150 or 2300 like some of the common satellite splitters they will work to 2750 MHz no problem. Specialized gear like Sonora's amps that are rated for 250 - 2150 MHz I'm not so sure about. I don't think it is a problem but I could be wrong. I tried to ask Sonora about this once but got no response (they have answered other questions I've asked so whether they didn't answer because they don't know or because they didn't want to tip Directv's plans I have no idea)
> 
> 3) remove the 200 MHz guard bands in the stack plan, and use that freed space to add the 400 MHz of reverse band so you still have four cables carrying 250 - 2150 MHz. This is the most elegant solution, and since each 400 - 500 MHz band has guard bands itself, this is easily possible. It would require more aggressive filtering than what the DSWM chips do now (or updateable firmware that knows where the transponders are to split them all out one by one)
> 
> Since the new legacy LNB is going to be produced in much lower volumes than the original one (which was used for every customer until the SWM LNB became mainstream) and will only be used by customers who are generating a lot of revenue, they don't need to be so concerned with shaving every penny off the cost. So I think in light of that option 3 makes the most sense - and might explain why it hasn't appeared in the firmware - since it would require a custom ASIC that may simply not be ready yet.


If they stack the LH and RH 119 transponders and forget about 110 they can get all of 119 in a single 500MHz block on a coax. (With tight filtering they could even fit the 110 transponders in the 500MHz block with the 119 transponders). Then they could use the other 500 MHz block formerly occupied by 119/110 for a block of RDBS (one polarization from one orbital slot). That would leave all the space on a flex port for the other polarization from that orbital slot and both polarizations from the other orbital slot. Stacking the 119R/L transponders (and 110 if they have CONUS plans for them) would let them use a legacy reverse band LNB in MDU installs where only 5 coax cables were run.


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## slice1900

stvcmty said:


> If they stack the LH and RH 119 transponders and forget about 110 they can get all of 119 in a single 500MHz block on a coax. (With tight filtering they could even fit the 110 transponders in the 500MHz block with the 119 transponders). Then they could use the other 500 MHz block formerly occupied by 119/110 for a block of RDBS (one polarization from one orbital slot). That would leave all the space on a flex port for the other polarization from that orbital slot and both polarizations from the other orbital slot. Stacking the 119R/L transponders (and 110 if they have CONUS plans for them) would let them use a legacy reverse band LNB in MDU installs where only 5 coax cables were run.


They don't need to do anything so complicated. Reverse band in the US is only 400 MHz wide, not 500 MHz like the other bands (due to some conflicts with military usage of the frequency just above it) So they could use 100 MHz guard bands instead of 200 MHz on that fifth coax and do 250-650 750-1150 1250-1650 1750-2150 to fit all four in the standard 250-2150 MHz range.


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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> They don't need to do anything so complicated. Reverse band in the US is only 400 MHz wide, not 500 MHz like the other bands (due to some conflicts with military usage of the frequency just above it) So they could use 100 MHz guard bands instead of 200 MHz on that fifth coax and do 250-650 750-1150 1250-1650 1750-2150 to fit all four in the standard 250-2150 MHz range.


Just would need 4 separate LOFs that are not multiple related.

Therefore 4 separate DROs to stack those four bands?

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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Just would need 4 separate LOFs that are not multiple related.
> 
> Therefore 4 separate DROs to stack those four bands?


Not really. You don't even need a 17.05 GHz DRO; using the 18.05 GHz DRO that already exists for Ka you only need one additional DRO of 500 MHz to handle reverse band. Using the 500 MHz DRO and frequency multipliers you can create additional frequencies of 1000, 1500, 2000 and 2500 MHz that would adjust the original 18.05 GHz DRO to a new value that would stack reverse band IFs at 250/750/1250/1750.

While that's what they might do in an analog LNB, I think the reverse band legacy LNB will have very few analog components. It could use the same 18.05 GHz Ka uses and an ADC would digitize the inverted range 350-750 MHz on each reverse band input. They may go even further and eliminate the LOs entirely - undersampling allows directly digitizing at the original frequency without any LO adjustment. While it is computationally a bit more expensive to (for example) directly digitize 19.7 to 20.2 GHz versus 0 to 500 MHz, it isn't all that much more - less than 2x as much.

Assuming they will use a slightly wider feedhorn to pickup the range 17.3 to 20.2 GHz (i.e. grabbing not just Ka lo/hi from 99/103 but also reverse band) they'd have a 2.9 GHz range of interest from 99/103. To directly digitize that full range without LO adjustment would require a sample rate of just under 7 GHz. That's versus a bit over 4 GHz for the 250-2300 MHz inputs on Maxlinear's DSWM chip, so it is not much more than is already being done in mass produced DSWM chips. Or the feedhorn pickup outputs could be split three ways and you'd use 3x the number of ADCs but they could be much narrower - maybe 1.3 GHz. A LNB using this design would eliminate all DROs (well not quite, you still need a clock source for the digital circuitry) and all analog mixers, and require only 6 preamps (99, 101, 103 for each polarity) and I suppose 6 filters. Everything else would be digital.


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## alnielsen

Scott over at Satelliteguys says that the swm with reverse band is being shipped to warehouses now. Expect to see them to start showing up "soon".


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## HoTat2

Yeah, good catch by Scott over there ...

Appears the P/N is "3D2RBLNBR0-01" by WNC for just the 3 LNB version so far.

Suppose the 5 LNB version will be "5D2RBLNBR0-01"

Reposted photos:

























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## inkahauts

:lol:

I love where he put his watermark!!!!


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## slice1900

Wish that crowd over there was more curious about how things work - be cool if he opened one up and compared with a regular DSWM LNB. In particular the width of the feedhorns for 99/103 and what the board looks like.


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## P Smith

why not call local crowd ?


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## compnurd

Wonder how long before they hit ebay


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## gwade

Looking for some help and reading through the entire history is rough. I just installed a SWM13 yesterday with a movers connection (bought off eBay). First, I had a hard time getting the contractor installer to even do it because he was convinced it was an 8 tuner LNB (and I have 9 tuners). Finally he gave in. Everything went reasonably smoothly, but I have one tuner that is not connecting. The setup is:

2 HD DVRs - 4 tuners
1 HR44 - 5 tuners

I have great signal strength on almost everything, but Tuner 1 on the HR44 is showing less than 20% and is not finding when you do the 5 tuner graphic. Tuners 2 through 4 are great, Tuner 1 doesn't register. Could I live with 4 tuners on the HR44, sure, but I may want to add an H25 (1 tuner) in the near future so I want to ensure the SWM13 is working. Thanks.


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## Lord Vader

compnurd said:


> Wonder how long before they hit ebay


They've been on ebay for a couple months already. I got mine 2 weeks ago, but I know that some here got theirs well before then.


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## HoTat2

Lord Vader said:


> They've been on ebay for a couple months already. I got mine 2 weeks ago, but I know that some here got theirs well before then.


I think he's referring to the new Reverse Band capable LNB that is just shipping now in mass to DIRECTV warehouses. ..

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## twizt3dkitty

They are only going to certain warehouses for a pilot install for about 1 month

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## Lord Vader

HoTat2 said:


> I think he's referring to the new Reverse Band capable LNB that is just shipping now in mass to DIRECTV warehouses. ..
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


You're probably right.


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## HoTat2

twizt3dkitty said:


> They are only going to certain warehouses for a pilot install for about 1 month
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Oh ... I stand corrected on "in mass to warehouses" ...

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## Lord Vader

HoTat2 said:


> I think he's referring to the new Reverse Band capable LNB that is just shipping now in mass to DIRECTV warehouses. ..
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


What the hell are those?


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## HoTat2

Lord Vader said:


> What the hell are those?


LNBs that can receive the new Reverse Band from xpndr payloads on D14 and D15 at 99 and 103W called "RB-1" and "RB-2" the first of which are photographed here;

http://dbstalk.com/index.php?/topic/213993-First-Look:-SWM-13-LNB#entry3400742

DIRECTV will soon broadcast on three bands received by a single LNB instead of two, downlinking between;

Ka = 18.3-18.8 GHz and 19.7-20.2 GHz at 99 and 103W

Ku = 12.2-12.7 GHz at 101, 110, and 119W

Rev. Band = 17.3-17.7 GHz at 99 and 103W

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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> LNBs that can receive the new Reverse Band from xpndr payloads on D14 and D15 at 99 and 103W called "RB-1" and "RB-2" the first of which are photographed here;
> 
> http://dbstalk.com/index.php?/topic/213993-First-Look:-SWM-13-LNB#entry3400742
> 
> ...


HoTat2, could you please resize the pictures - my Dell NB with FFox cannot display them in full size


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## slice1900

According a poster on the other site, the RB LNBs are just in alpha testing right now. IMHO that adds credence to my speculation that it is using a very different front end. If it was simply the old KaKu analog front end with reverse band reception ability to added - which would just require a few additional analog components identical to the ones used in the KaKu front end - there probably wouldn't be an alpha stage required since it would be using the same chip already used in the 3D2.

If, however, it is using a new chip to provide a digital replacement for a lot of the analog components in the KaKu (either in addition to the Maxlinear DSWM chip, or possibly a new chip that combines the functionality of both) it would initially be available in very small quantities as the foundry runs a so-called 'hot lot' in the initial sampling stages. Just enough for alpha testing to verify that the chip functionality is correct and determine if there are any fixes required.

Assuming it is good (or after you run another hot lot once you apply the fixes you found you need) then you start to ramp up production which would allow a beta stage then full production. It takes about 10-15 weeks to turn a raw silicon wafer into finished, packaged chips, or maybe 6-8 weeks for a hot lot. So I'd expect to see the beta stage for RB LNBs to start in early spring, and have full production volumes by late summer. Unless they find a problem with it that requires changing the chip design - that would require a new hot lot and push those dates back a few months each.


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## tomspeer46

As I understand it, the 3D2RB(reverse band) LNBs are now the standard install in the the NYC-Long Island area. That is way beyond Alpha testing. So far over a dozen have been diverted to Ebay, and have quickly sold out,  When I looked a few hours ago three were available.


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## HoTat2

Still waiting (and hoping) for the 5D2RB here to appear on ebay ... 

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## Stevies3

What does reverse band add over the plain 3D2?


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## texasbrit

slice1900 said:


> According a poster on the other site, the RB LNBs are just in alpha testing right now. IMHO that adds credence to my speculation that it is using a very different front end. If it was simply the old KaKu analog front end with reverse band reception ability to added - which would just require a few additional analog components identical to the ones used in the KaKu front end - there probably wouldn't be an alpha stage required since it would be using the same chip already used in the 3D2.
> 
> If, however, it is using a new chip to provide a digital replacement for a lot of the analog components in the KaKu (either in addition to the Maxlinear DSWM chip, or possibly a new chip that combines the functionality of both) it would initially be available in very small quantities as the foundry runs a so-called 'hot lot' in the initial sampling stages. Just enough for alpha testing to verify that the chip functionality is correct and determine if there are any fixes required.
> 
> Assuming it is good (or after you run another hot lot once you apply the fixes you found you need) then you start to ramp up production which would allow a beta stage then full production. It takes about 10-15 weeks to turn a raw silicon wafer into finished, packaged chips, or maybe 6-8 weeks for a hot lot. So I'd expect to see the beta stage for RB LNBs to start in early spring, and have full production volumes by late summer. Unless they find a problem with it that requires changing the chip design - that would require a new hot lot and push those dates back a few months each.


This is not alpha testing, it's way beyond that. The LNB is in limited production rollout (only to a certain geographic area). I would expect to see it in full geographic rollout very soon, it certainly has to happen before DirecTV's linear 4K becomes available.


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## texasbrit

Stevies3 said:


> What does reverse band add over the plain 3D2?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ability to receive signals from the reverse band transponders which is where 4K transmissions are expected. My reverse band LNB (bought from ebay vendor) is showing signals from four transponders on the new 99cr signals screen. No program content, at least not receivable by me.


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## HoTat2

Stevies3 said:


> What does reverse band add over the plain 3D2?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


36 x 36 MHz wide transponders of additional bandwidth total at 99 and 103W for whatever programming or other services DIRECTV decides to place there. 4K channels or otherwise.

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## P Smith

texasbrit said:


> Ability to receive signals from the reverse band transponders which is where 4K transmissions are expected. My reverse band LNB (bought from ebay vendor) is showing signals from four transponders on the new 99cr signals screen. No program content, at least not receivable by me.


Any picture ? It's hard to get what level on those tpns...


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Any picture ? It's hard to get what level on those tpns...


TB posted on Satelliteguys.us shortly after he installed his 3D2RB LNBF back on December 24th that his levels for Reverse Band at that time were 83 for xpndr 2, 87 for xpndr 3, 85 for xpndr 16, and 89 for xpndr 17 on 99(cr) with 103(cr) at all 0s.

Very similar to those posted by twizt3dkitty for his 5D2RB LNBF in the other thread. 
http://dbstalk.com/index.php?/topic/220252-First-Look:-DirecTV-21-tuner-3D2-SWM-LNB#entry3402116

Note: Though I don't think he resized the photos there yet as you asked him ... 

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## P Smith

yea, he didn't - my ISP keep DL speed at 0.5 Mbps 
missed those SS values


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## alnielsen

An ice storm plus cold weather has prevented me from installing my RB LNB (ebay vendor acquired) in the roof mounted dish. There will be a couple of mid-upper 30's days coming up and I may yet get it installed.


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## P Smith

alnielsen said:


> An ice storm plus cold weather has prevented me from installing my RB LNB (ebay vendor acquired) in the roof mounted dish. There will be a couple of mid-upper 30's days coming up and I may yet get it installed.


what kind is ? can you post full ID of it ?


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> what kind is ? can you post full ID of it ?


From his posts on Satelliteguys.us it was a 3D2RB (P/N 3D2RBLNBR0-01 such as the one that was sold here on ebay.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/281897131329?_mwBanner=1

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## slice1900

texasbrit said:


> This is not alpha testing, it's way beyond that. The LNB is in limited production rollout (only to a certain geographic area). I would expect to see it in full geographic rollout very soon, it certainly has to happen before DirecTV's linear 4K becomes available.


Why? Who says they will use reverse band for 4K in the early days, when they have plenty of available bandwidth in Ka.


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## slice1900

tomspeer46 said:


> As I understand it, the 3D2RB(reverse band) LNBs are now the standard install in the the NYC-Long Island area. That is way beyond Alpha testing. So far over a dozen have been diverted to Ebay, and have quickly sold out, When I looked a few hours ago three were available.


I'm basing it on what a poster said on the other site. He claimed there was one batch sent out and another one would be coming and that was it, and claimed it was alpha testing. He seemed to be posting from a position of knowledge so I assumed he knew what he was talking about. But maybe not.


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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> I'm basing it on what a poster said on the other site. He claimed there was one batch sent out and another one would be coming and that was it, and claimed it was alpha testing. He seemed to be posting from a position of knowledge so I assumed he knew what he was talking about. But maybe not.


Yeah, specifically he's a DIRECTV tech. in the NE area where the Reverse Band LNBFs are being tested and post on this forum too.

Screen name is "twizt3dkitty"

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## tomspeer46

For those of you waiting for the SL5 version of the reverse band LNB, you may not need it. Without the Espanol or World packages, there are very few circumstances where it will add much to the SL3 configuration. see: http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/200951-transponder-maps-domestic-dla-data-12302015/page-58#entry3403553


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## twizt3dkitty

I'm pretty sure I clarified that this is a pilot. They are not 'standard install' but you can believe me or not. And I'm not a tech.

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## inkahauts

I didn't read the other site but there's no way the pilot is considered alpha testing and I think that's what many where kind of jumping on however slice came to that conclusion.


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## texasbrit

As a veteran of equipment testing, let me add my two cents to this.
Alpha testing is typically carried out inside engineering.
Beta testing is normally carried out outside engineering but by a selected group of knowledgeable and "trusted" people who report their findings back to engineering. 
A pilot is normally carried out with product that has been beta tested, and is thought to be finished product, but then deployed in a specific area, or sometimes with customers whose environment meets a specific requirement. DirecTV have carried out pilots before, usually geographic, because it means they don't have to train every tech in the country before deploying the new equipment in customer environments.
Unless problems occur, equipment usually moves very quickly from pilot to full rollout


----------



## P Smith

texasbrit said:


> As a veteran of equipment testing, let me add my two cents to this.
> Alpha testing is typically carried out inside engineering.
> *Beta testing is normally carried out outside engineering* but by a selected group of knowledgeable and "trusted" people who report their findings back to engineering.
> A pilot is normally carried out with product that has been beta tested, and is thought to be finished product, but then deployed in a specific area, or sometimes with customers whose environment meets a specific requirement. DirecTV have carried out pilots before, usually geographic, because it means they don't have to train every tech in the country before deploying the new equipment in customer environments.
> Unless problems occur, equipment usually moves very quickly from pilot to full rollout


As EE worked in HW dept for a couple microelectronics companies, I wouldn't concur and would say beta testing is done by QA group/dept inside of the company eg the product will not go outside the company. First production device could be send to partners for "gamma" testing, but the word usually does not using in NDA agreements.


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> As EE worked in HW dept for a couple microelectronics companies, I wouldn't concur and would say beta testing is done by QA group/dept inside of the company eg the product will not go outside the company. First production device could be send to partners for "gamma" testing, but the word usually does not using in NDA agreements.


Companies vary. Beta testing can be internal or external (or both). Even "internal" testing can be done by others at the company who are outside engineering and can see the product with fresh eyes. The terms each company calls their levels of testing are up to the company involved.

In other words, if DIRECTV wants to call outside testers "beta" it is their choice. Sometimes companies do not use the terms others want them to use. Call it gamma, delta or epsilon if you must. DIRECTV can use the term beta if they wish.


----------



## P Smith

sure; when I will signed document, not words in posts at dbs or other sites

but EVT, DVT, PVT are the common names during designing and mfg such stuff with other definitions using in documents !


----------



## texasbrit

P Smith said:


> As EE worked in HW dept for a couple microelectronics companies, I wouldn't concur and would say beta testing is done by QA group/dept inside of the company eg the product will not go outside the company. First production device could be send to partners for "gamma" testing, but the word usually does not using in NDA agreements.


Beta testing can be done inside (by a different group like QA) or outside the company, either is quite normal...


----------



## Tom Robertson

The terms are what each company makes of them, defining phases of testing. The phases can be dependent on the nature of the product. While companies want to eat their own dog food, and test as much as they can, some products can't adequately be tested in an in-house simulation, so have to late round alpha and beta test in external environments.

And during basic research or marketing research, sometimes very early prototypes will be tested with partners to verify design concepts and technologies. Like measuring interference and power density of a new range of direct to earth frequencies. 

So what is this? Who cares?  It's what they say it is. I don't know DIRECTV's processes, they don't announce their phases. I'm guessing pilot but it could be a large beta or gamma test.

Peace,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> The terms are what each company makes of them, defining phases of testing. The phases can be dependent on the nature of the product. While companies want to eat their own dog food, and test as much as they can, some products can't adequately be tested in an in-house simulation, so have to late round alpha and beta test in external environments.
> 
> And during basic research or marketing research, sometimes very early prototypes will be tested with partners to verify design concepts and technologies. Like measuring interference and power density of a new range of direct to earth frequencies.
> 
> So what is this? Who cares?  It's what they say it is. I don't know DIRECTV's processes, they don't announce their phases. I'm guessing pilot but it could be a large beta or gamma test.
> 
> Peace,
> Tom


But how can a company really alpha, beta, or gamma test on customers without letting them know they are actually part of a field test this way and offer a voluntary opt-out of the program if they wish?

Therefore, with all due respect for twizt3dkitty (and I apologize for asserting he was a "tech." earlier  ) and his source of information on this point. I can't see how this rollout can be part of any pre-release testing.

A phased rollout like NR firmware releases perhaps, so if any major undiscovered flaw in the new LNBFs pops up the rollout can be quickly halted before too much damage has been done, yes. As well as helping to manage the demand on tech. training across the nation, I agree as well.

But testing new equipment on unsuspecting customers would be unacceptable and a huge risk of a customer relations nightmare I would think.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> But how can a company really alpha, beta, or gamma test on customers without letting them know they are actually part of a field test this way and offer a voluntary opt-out of the program if they wish?
> 
> Therefore, with all due respect for twizt3dkitty (and I apologize for asserting he was a "tech." earlier  ) and his source of information on this point. I can't see how this rollout can be part of any pre-release testing.
> 
> A phased rollout like NR firmware releases perhaps, so if any major undiscovered flaw in the new LNBFs pops up the rollout can be quickly halted before too much damage has been done, yes. As well as helping to manage the demand on tech. training across the nation, I agree as well.
> 
> But testing new equipment on unsuspecting customers would be unacceptable and a huge risk of a customer relations nightmare I would think.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


If they are testing something that is not yet a marketed feature, ie 4k, and are certain the existing features do work, they can run a pilot to gather data. And with minimal risk of customer problems.

Peace,
Tom


----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> But testing new equipment on unsuspecting customers would be unacceptable and a huge risk of a customer relations nightmare I would think.


Why? It's a LNB, the worst case is that it stops working. It won't delete their recordings, or catch their house on fire. That's why there are small tests first (whatever you choose to call them) before deploying on a wider scale.


----------



## inkahauts

Directv has a pattern. 

After all the internal testing is complete with any hardware and they are satisfied it's ready to be released they chose a specific market or two to launch it in and watch for any issues to pop up they hadn't caught in testing phases earlier and as soon as they are satisfied they ramp up production and start to roll it out nationwide. 

Seems smart to me. Allows them to stop the roll out if something major needs to be fixed before production really gets moving.


----------



## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> Directv has a pattern.
> 
> After all the internal testing is complete with any hardware and they are satisfied it's ready to be released they chose a specific market or two to launch it in and watch for any issues to pop up they hadn't caught in testing phases earlier and as soon as they are satisfied they ramp up production and start to roll it out nationwide.
> 
> Seems smart to me. Allows them to stop the roll out if something major needs to be fixed before production really gets moving.


This is my thinking as well ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## alnielsen

inkahauts said:


> Directv has a pattern.
> 
> After all the internal testing is complete with any hardware and they are satisfied it's ready to be released they chose a specific market or two to launch it in and watch for any issues to pop up they hadn't caught in testing phases earlier and as soon as they are satisfied they ramp up production and start to roll it out nationwide.
> 
> Seems smart to me. Allows them to stop the roll out if something major needs to be fixed before production really gets moving.


I'm surprised it isn't being rolled out in SoCal first. It's where the HR54 was first released.


----------



## twizt3dkitty

The 54 is being released from 3 manufacturers, socal got 500s, Texas gets 700, and northeast gets 200s.. all still in "testing" and I use that term to try to avoid fueling an argument. And I can't say how I know what I know. I believe that I have posted enough evidence that I know what I'm talking about. I have a Reverseband 5 myself. I have one of 4 that I know for a fact are in the wild. Are there more out there? Almost deffinently. But until someone else shares proof they have one... then you all only have what I say to go by, whether you choose to accept it or not is your choice. I can always keep my information to myself. Just because I don't have 2500+ posts here doesn't mean I'm not creditable. But so far the only part you all have assumed to be correct about me, is that "kitty" is a guy. Enough said about me. If there are questions then ask them. When I have the answer I will share it.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Stevies3

Do the LNB's get updated firmware as with the HR's & clients?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts

twizt3dkitty said:


> The 54 is being released from 3 manufacturers, socal got 500s, Texas gets 700, and northeast gets 200s.. all still in "testing" and I use that term to try to avoid fueling an argument. And I can't say how I know what I know. I believe that I have posted enough evidence that I know what I'm talking about. I have a Reverseband 5 myself. I have one of 4 that I know for a fact are in the wild. Are there more out there? Almost deffinently. But until someone else shares proof they have one... then you all only have what I say to go by, whether you choose to accept it or not is your choice. I can always keep my information to myself. Just because I don't have 2500+ posts here doesn't mean I'm not creditable. But so far the only part you all have assumed to be correct about me, is that "kitty" is a guy. Enough said about me. If there are questions then ask them. When I have the answer I will share it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


How's the 5 working? And is it also 21 tuners?


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## twizt3dkitty

I can tell you I have enough tuners to prove 16 work at once. But I only have 6 irds and one is a client. No issues other than one 30min period of 771 with still weather. Waiting for atc to get back to me on what the report says. Transponders are all normal. 99cr is in the 80s as reported 103cr is dead as reported. Otherwise everything is as expected.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## James Long

twizt3dkitty said:


> .. all still in "testing" and I use that term to try to avoid fueling an argument.


Perhaps "limited release" will hold off the offended? Test markets make sense.


----------



## Riverpilot

Received my 3D2RB LNB the other day. Installed today and working well.  Cleaned up the wiring mess and got rid of that heat sink SWiM 16. :hurah:


----------



## Logandros

I have a question, looking at this installation diagram here:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.solidsignal.com%2Fdocs%2FSWM13LNB%2520Install.pdf

Do both splitters need power supplied? If so can that power be split from 1 Power Inserter?

Thank you


----------



## doctor j

Logandros said:


> I have a question, looking at this installation diagram here:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.solidsignal.com%2Fdocs%2FSWM13LNB%2520Install.pdf
> 
> Do both splitters need power supplied? If so can that power be split from 1 Power Inserter?
> 
> Thank you


Just One
Doctor j


----------



## compnurd

There is another one up on ebay but is priced about 15 bucks higher than it has been


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## doctor j

compnurd said:


> There is another one up on ebay but is priced about 15 bucks higher than it has been


Supply vs Demand

Doctor j


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## HoTat2

compnurd said:


> There is another one up on ebay but is priced about 15 bucks higher than it has been


Yeah, ... I saw it yesterday. ...

And was actually tempted to buy it anyway and figure out what to do about the problem it would cause near the end of the year with my sister come next Christmas season.

But as fate would have it my sister was enjoying the H&H music channel just this morning, even though the Christmas music format has now ended. And DIRECTV as usual has it back solely on the 119W satellite.

So still awaiting a 5D2RB LNB to pop up somewhere ... sign  ...

Wow ... one single Sonic Tap music channel holding up the whole train here ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## alnielsen

I like the Tranquility music channel on 119. Otherwise I'm good on everything else. It's not a deal breaker.


----------



## HoTat2

alnielsen said:


> I like the Tranquility music channel on 119. Otherwise I'm good on everything else. It's not a deal breaker.


Wish my sister thought so about the H&H channel there . .

But then again, like most I suppose, outside of her Smartphone, tablet, and the family PC, she's really a non-techie and doesn't know or care anything about Reverse Band, or getting rid of a hot running SWiM-16, and a simpler cleaner install.

Just wants to enjoy her music from H&H in the mornings and/or evenings now and then.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Riverpilot

HoTat2 said:


> Wish my sister thought so about the H&H channel there . .
> 
> But then again, like most I suppose, outside of her Smartphone, tablet, and the family PC, she's really a non-techie and doesn't know or care anything about Reverse Band, or getting rid of a hot running SWiM-16, and a simpler cleaner install.
> 
> Just wants to enjoy her music from H&H in the mornings and/or evenings now and then.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Those were two of my biggest reasons to buy one now instead of waiting to get a 4k TV... getting rid of that hot SWim16 and a cleaner install.


----------



## alnielsen

HoTat2 said:


> Wish my sister thought so about the H&H channel there . .
> 
> But then again, like most I suppose, outside of her Smartphone, tablet, and the family PC, she's really a non-techie and doesn't know or care anything about Reverse Band, or getting rid of a hot running SWiM-16, and a simpler cleaner install.
> 
> Just wants to enjoy her music from H&H in the mornings and/or evenings now and then.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Directv just discontinued that channel.


----------



## twizt3dkitty

You mean like this one...










Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2

alnielsen said:


> Directv just discontinued that channel.


Nah .... I wouldn't be so lucky ... 

They just discontinued the 101W mirror of it as they usually do soon after the holiday season in early January.

It's back on 119W only, chs. 815 and 9567

D7S xpndr 22 ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2

twizt3dkitty said:


> You mean like this one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Yep ...

Hey drop me a PM if you can happen to finagle me one somehow ... 

And what's that other mount right behind the Slimline that's making the picture look funny?

Almost looks like two masts on the Slimline. ..

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## twizt3dkitty

Off air antenna. And no. It's an engineering sample. This is not something that can fall off the back of a truck as its not on any trucks.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## peds48

this is some info from a Reverse Band LNB I took this morning 

AIM Version: 4.0 Build: 1080
Db Version: 0040
Date: 12-13-2015, 12:13:53
Account: SampleId123
Notes: 
ODU: Slimline-3DR
Multiswitch: None
Zip: 46825
Config: ODU-SPL-IRD
Location: At ODU output
Options: All nationals with spots
Sat/Tr Freq(MHz) Pwr(dBm) SNR(dB) SQ Offset(MHz) Lock Volts(V) Cur(mA) ODU DSWM
ssss/tt xxxx.xx -xxx.x xx.x xxx (-)x.xx xxx xx.x xxxx abcd x 
99a/1 1680.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/2 1680.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/3 1720.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/4 1720.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/5 1760.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/6 1760.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/7 1800.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/8 1800.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/11 1880.00 -25.3 14.1 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/13 1920.00 -25.4 13.6 96 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/14 1920.00 -25.4 14.3 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/15 1960.00 -25.3 13.8 96 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/16 1960.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/17 2000.00 -25.3 13.2 95 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/18 2000.00 -25.3 14.2 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/19 2040.00 -25.4 13.0 95 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/20 2040.00 -25.3 14.1 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/21 2080.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/23 2120.00 -25.4 14.1 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/1 274.00 -25.4 13.8 96 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/2 274.00 -25.4 13.5 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/3 314.00 -25.5 12.4 92 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/4 314.00 -25.6 12.7 94 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/5 354.00 -25.6 13.3 95 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/6 354.00 -25.4 13.0 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/7 394.00 -25.7 12.6 94 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/8 394.00 -25.6 12.8 95 0.45 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/9 434.00 -25.4 13.2 95 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/10 434.00 -25.5 13.2 95 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/11 474.00 -25.5 12.6 94 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/12 474.00 -25.5 12.8 95 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/13 514.00 -25.4 14.0 97 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/14 514.00 -25.5 13.8 96 -0.20 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/15 554.00 -25.2 12.5 93 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/16 554.00 -25.3 16.7 100 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/17 598.00 -25.4 13.5 96 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/18 598.00 -25.2 15.0 99 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/19 642.00 -25.3 16.3 100 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/20 642.00 -25.2 17.4 100 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/21 682.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/22 682.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/23 726.00 -25.5 13.4 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/24 726.00 -25.3 12.3 92 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/1 974.00 -26.5 15.2 99 -0.63 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/2 988.58 -29.2 14.4 97 -0.70 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/3 1003.16 -27.1 14.5 98 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/4 1017.74 -26.0 16.1 100 -0.57 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/5 1032.32 -27.4 14.6 98 -0.57 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/6 1046.90 -27.6 17.3 100 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/7 1061.48 -27.1 15.2 99 -0.58 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/8 1076.06 -26.8 17.2 100 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/9 1090.64 -27.1 15.3 99 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/10 1105.22 -29.4 15.4 99 -0.83 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/11 1119.80 -27.3 15.4 99 -0.63 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/12 1134.38 -26.2 16.2 100 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/13 1148.96 -27.2 15.5 100 -0.70 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/14 1163.54 -27.7 17.3 100 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/15 1178.12 -27.0 15.1 99 -0.57 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/16 1192.70 -27.4 16.9 100 -0.58 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/17 1207.28 -27.4 15.0 99 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/18 1221.86 -26.8 18.8 100 -0.56 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/19 1236.44 -27.1 14.9 98 -0.70 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/20 1251.02 -26.9 15.1 99 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/21 1265.60 -27.2 14.9 98 -0.70 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/22 1280.18 -27.5 16.9 100 -0.76 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/23 1294.76 -27.2 15.3 99 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/24 1309.34 -27.0 17.0 100 -0.58 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/25 1323.92 -27.2 14.8 98 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/26 1338.50 -27.2 16.0 100 -0.62 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/27 1353.08 -27.2 14.5 98 -0.70 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/28 1367.66 -27.2 12.3 92 -0.55 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/29 1382.24 -26.9 15.3 99 -0.57 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/30 1396.82 -27.0 16.8 100 -0.45 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/31 1411.40 -26.3 14.4 97 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/32 1425.98 -26.2 17.4 100 -0.58 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/1 1691.67 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/2 1691.67 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/3 1754.17 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/4 1754.17 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR  2 
103a/5 1800.67 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/6 1800.67 -25.7 9.8 77 -0.14 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/9 1840.00 -25.4 14.6 98 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/10 1840.00 -25.6 13.6 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/11 1880.00 -25.5 14.0 97 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/12 1880.00 -25.4 13.3 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/13 1920.00 -25.5 13.6 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/14 1920.00 -25.7 13.1 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/15 1960.00 -25.5 13.5 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/16 1960.00 -25.6 13.4 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/17 2000.00 -25.4 13.4 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/18 2000.00 -25.6 13.2 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/19 2040.00 -25.5 13.7 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/20 2040.00 -25.6 13.2 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/21 2080.00 -25.4 13.3 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/22 2080.00 -25.6 13.0 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/23 2120.00 -25.5 13.8 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/24 2120.00 -25.3 13.8 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/1 274.00 -25.7 14.1 97 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/2 274.00 -25.5 14.1 97 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/3 314.00 -25.6 12.6 94 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/4 314.00 -25.6 12.9 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/5 354.00 -25.4 13.2 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/6 354.00 -25.5 13.3 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/7 394.00 -25.6 12.7 94 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/8 394.00 -25.6 12.8 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/9 434.00 -25.5 13.4 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/10 434.00 -25.6 13.2 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/11 474.00 -25.6 13.0 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/12 474.00 -25.6 13.1 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/13 514.00 -25.6 13.2 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/14 514.00 -25.4 13.3 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/15 554.00 -25.4 15.7 100 -0.16 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/16 554.00 -25.4 11.1 85 -0.15 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/17 598.00 -25.3 14.5 98 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/18 598.00 -25.4 14.1 97 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/19 642.00 -25.3 14.1 97 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/20 642.00 -25.5 12.1 91 -0.15 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/21 682.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/22 682.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/23 726.00 -25.8 15.5 100 -0.15 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/24 726.00 -25.2 13.6 96 -0.15 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2


----------



## HoTat2

Thanks alot for this ...

I take it though that the new AIM database does not include the Reverse Band xpndrs 99(cr) and 103(cr)?

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Thanks alot for this ...
> 
> I take it though that the new AIM database does not include the Reverse Band xpndrs 99(cr) and 103(cr)?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


if it was not on that report then is not part of it


----------



## lzhj9k

I installed my Reverse Band LNB yesterday...

ReRan Satellite set up and all is good.

4 Transponders used on 99 cr

2-77 3-83 16-82 and 17-89

and

all 0's on 103 cr

NE INdiana with overcast and light snow showers

Mike


----------



## compnurd

twizt3dkitty said:


> Off air antenna. And no. It's an engineering sample. This is not something that can fall off the back of a truck as its not on any trucks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I like that dish alot Is that a darker grey?


----------



## HoTat2

compnurd said:


> I like that dish alot Is that a darker grey?


Yeah, recent cosmetic change;

http://forums.solidsignal.com/content.php/5057-There-s-a-new-DIRECTV-dish-in-town-sorta

Those have been popping up a lot in this market nowadays. Though I would have thought they would have the AT&T globe logo instead of the now defunct DIRECTV cyclone one prominently displayed on them.

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## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah, recent cosmetic change;


More than cosmetic. It actually has less hardware when put together. This is now the de facto dish to be installed once older inventory is used


----------



## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> More than cosmetic. It actually has less hardware when put together. This is now the de facto dish to be installed once older inventory is used


Oh ... ok. ..

I was going on Stuart's write up in the link to SS who made no mention of this beyond cosmetic changes.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Oh ... ok. ..
> 
> I was going on Stuart's write up in the link to SS who made no mention of this beyond cosmetic changes.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Yeah, it requires 5 less screws than its predecessor. !rolling

The bottom two screws has been replaced by tabs that slide in to the reflector and the arm only requires one instead of four.


----------



## twizt3dkitty

The Azel still requires 3, but as peds stated most of this dish snaps together. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## dpeters11

I like the look of that. Fortunately my dish is on the back of the house or my wife might want one once she sees them in use.

Ironically, I think I recently saw one in the neighborhood at our local wine shop and noted that it looked different.


----------



## alnielsen

peds48 said:


> this is some info from a Reverse Band LNB I took this morning
> 
> AIM Version: 4.0 Build: 1080
> Db Version: 0040
> Date: 12-13-2015, 12:13:53
> Account: SampleId123
> Notes:
> ODU: Slimline-3DR
> Multiswitch: None
> Zip: * 46825*
> Config: ODU-SPL-IRD
> Location: At ODU output
> Options: All nationals with spots


Fort Wayne, IN ?


----------



## P Smith

dpeters11 said:


> I like the look of that. Fortunately my dish is on the back of the house or my wife might want one once she sees them in use.
> 
> Ironically, I think I recently saw one in the neighborhood at our local wine shop and noted that it looked different.


dish used the color for many years  it should help in warming up the reflector by Sun in cold places


----------



## lzhj9k

alnielsen said:


> Fort Wayne, IN ?


I too saw that and did wonder about the Midwest Zip code...Ft Wayne Indiana.


----------



## peds48

alnielsen said:


> Fort Wayne, IN ?


check the date too. I don't bother with that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> check the date too. I don't bother with that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh ... this xpndr survey wasn't generated from the latest AIM firmware as in the SolidSignal link I posted earlier?

"DIRECTV issues new AIM Meter firmware version 4.0 and database 0041"
http://forums.solidsignal.com/content.php/5179-DIRECTV-issues-new-AIM-Meter-firmware-version-4-0-and-database-0041

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## doctor j

peds48 said:


> check the date too. I don't bother with that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just to satisfy the compulsive ones here, including me.
Can you update the AIM FW and post the full report so that we can compare? v4.0 Build 1080 Db v0041
Please

Doctor j


----------



## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Oh ... this xpndr survey wasn't generated from the latest AIM firmware as in the SolidSignal link I posted earlier?
> 
> "DIRECTV issues new AIM Meter firmware version 4.0 and database 0041"
> http://forums.solidsignal.com/content.php/5179-DIRECTV-issues-new-AIM-Meter-firmware-version-4-0-and-database-0041
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


check fw on post. It says 4.0.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peds48

doctor j said:


> Just to satisfy the compulsive ones here, including me.
> Can you update the AIM FW and post the full report so that we can compare? v4.0 Build 1080 Db v0041
> Please
> 
> Doctor j


meter has been updated before survey.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> check fw on post. It says 4.0.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





peds48 said:


> meter has been updated before survey.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But why doesn't the "Db" or Database read "0041" instead of "0040" posted for the list?

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## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> But why doesn't the "Db" or Database read "0041" instead of "0040" posted for the list?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Because I had the BETA build. Not much changed with the NR just then vision to be dispatch to all techs. But in due time I update to 41 and post back, it won be tomorrow tho


----------



## twizt3dkitty

From what I was *told* db40 does not record rvb xpndrs

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## compnurd

I just ordered one


----------



## P Smith

compnurd said:


> I just ordered one


AIM ? or DLNB ? which one ?


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> AIM ? or DLNB ? which one ?


And if it's the LNB, which one?

As the original subject title of this thread, the 1st gen. 3DS, has varied away to discussion about the newer 2nd gen. DSWM LNBFs.

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## compnurd

P Smith said:


> AIM ? or DLNB ? which one ?


lol my bad The 3D2RBLNBR0-01


----------



## P Smith

Ah, OK... it would be more interesting to obtain 5D2RB


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Ah, OK... it would be more interesting to obtain 5D2RB


Yeah, except twizt3dkitty informed me on Satelliteguys.us that the pilot program was only for the 3D2RB. Which is why some ebay sellers are getting their hands on them from the pilot areas.

The 5D2RB like he has is a special engineering sample not aquired the way ebayers are getting the 3D2RB's

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## twizt3dkitty

I concur..

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## compnurd

Got it today.... Installed in 2 min and working perfectly


----------



## HoTat2

compnurd said:


> Got it today.... Installed in 2 min and working perfectly


Good, ...

99(cr) levels?

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## compnurd

88 88 89 94


----------



## Stevies3

HoTat2 said:


> Good, ...
> 
> 99(cr) levels?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


I get,
95, 94, 95, 96

Long Island, NY

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## twizt3dkitty

My levels also jumped.

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## slice1900

Looks like they cranked up the power, or switched to a different modulation using a lower bit rate.


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## Riverpilot

slice1900 said:


> Looks like they cranked up the power, or switched to a different modulation using a lower bit rate.


I'm still in the mid 80's here in the midwest, on 99cr


----------



## lzhj9k

I too am in the Mid 80's here in NE Indiana

2-80 
3-80
16-82
17-86

Light snow this morning, cloudy and overcast

I am outside of the Pilot Area in the NorthEast....


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## compnurd

I expect signals to bounce around for awhile. I am mid 90's on everything else so seeing high 80's on these right now means nothing to me


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## Ken984

Installed my rb LNB today. 99cr levels are 92 on transponders 2 and 3 and 95 on 16 and 17.


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## P Smith

Ken984 said:


> Installed my rb LNB today. 99cr levels are 92 on transponders 2 and 3 and 95 on 16 and 17.


Would be nice to know what exactly model you got.


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## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Would be nice to know what exactly model you got.


Know of any other possible Reverse Band ones in the wild than the 3D2RB by WNC?

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## P Smith

who knows, that DLNB could produce Broadcom or Maxlinear also


----------



## Ken984

As far as i know this is the only Reverse Band LNB available but this is the model number

3D2RBLNBR0-01

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIRECTV-GEN-2-DSWM-LNB-SWM-21-TUNER-LNB-3D2RBLNBR0-01-NEW-/121861813289?hash=item1c5f87b429:g:r00AAOSwYIhWkqJh


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## bobnielsen

I wonder why they don't have the usual green label (although the one pictured does). Mine also had half of the yellow tag missing. I guess such are the ways of the grey market.


----------



## Ken984

Mine was the same Bob. But it worked perfectly, 18 tuners.


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## inkahauts

There really isn't anything out anymore that they need to worry about the color of labels so maybe they stopped worry about it.


----------



## WestDC

Yes those are "NEW" RB LNB"s on Ebay , How ever They are only offered in the test market (you are free to get one) Be advised they may not be be the final production Run -When The RB's Go Live Later this year - Some Issues have been reported using them - and some have had no trouble - One issue reported is possible problem not being able to get firmware updates when pushed. Just one example. Also They are suspect as they may be LNBS that Had trouble when installed in the test market and they Didn't pass muster -That's why they found their way to ebay.


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## Rockaway1836

Bob, I bought 2 reverse band LNBs off of Ebay. One came from a guy in Queens, the other from one of the Brooklyn sellers. The one from Queens came with the green label and no yellow tag. The one from Brooklyn came without the green label and had half a yellow tag.. They both work just fine. However if one was to fail, I'm betting the one from Brooklyn would have the higher risk. Not because it was defective, rather because of the way he packed it (or didn't pack iit ) for shipping. It looks as if he just found the smallest box he could, and stuffed it in, stuck a stamp on it, and threw it in the mail box. Where as the one from Queens came well wrapped in bubble wrap.


----------



## twizt3dkitty

There are two other manufacturers, I'll look them up when I get home.

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## slice1900

P Smith said:


> who knows, that DLNB could produce Broadcom or Maxlinear also


Maxlinear makes the chips, not the LNB. Broadcom also makes a compatible chip, but Maxlinear's is lower power so I doubt they'd use Broadcom's until they do a new rev.


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## slice1900

twizt3dkitty said:


> There are two other manufacturers, I'll look them up when I get home.


Previously LNBs were made by WNC, Eagle Aspen and Andrew, so I would assume they are all still active making Directv LNBs in the future.

When they introduce a legacy reverse band LNB I wonder if that might have fewer manufacturers, perhaps only one, since it would be produced in much lower quantities.


----------



## HoTat2

There's also "Pro Brand Inc." (or PBI) ...

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## twizt3dkitty

Pbi is going to make reverse band 3s

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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> There's also "Pro Brand Inc." (or PBI) ...


PBI and Eagle Aspen are the same company.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> PBI and Eagle Aspen are the same company.


Ohoops ...

My bad ...

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## cpalmer2k

Rockaway1836 said:


> Bob, I bought 2 reverse band LNBs off of Ebay. One came from a guy in Queens, the other from one of the Brooklyn sellers. The one from Queens came with the green label and no yellow tag. The one from Brooklyn came without the green label and had half a yellow tag.. They both work just fine. However if one was to fail, I'm betting the one from Brooklyn would have the higher risk. Not because it was defective, rather because of the way he packed it (or didn't pack iit ) for shipping. It looks as if he just found the smallest box he could, and stuffed it in, stuck a stamp on it, and threw it in the mail box. Where as the one from Queens came well wrapped in bubble wrap.


I bought two as well, and have ended up with an extra reverse band LNB. The one I'm using came from the Brooklyn seller and all was well. I thought one seller wasn't going to come come through, so I went to another one but then he delivered. If anybody wants to try it out send me a PM, you can have it for what I paid. I also have an extra SWM13 first generation LNB I found while cleaning up (13 tuners max) if anybody needs one of those. I bought two to have a spare back when they first started popping up, but now with the RB I don't need it.


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## HoTat2

Reverse Band 5 LNBF (5D2RB) is apparently being distributed to subscribers way earlier than had been expected.

Sub. in South Point, Ohio posting on Satelliteguys.us just received one as part of his 4K install.

Keeping my eye on ebay now for sure ... 























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## HoTat2

Iamanedgecutter review of the Reverse Band 5 as well ...

http://iamanedgecutter.com/docs/5D2RB%20LNB%20Edgecutter%20Review.pdf

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## Bigg

Wow, they couldn't bother with another $2 of plastic to make the thing symmetrical? I suppose somebody will figure out how to make a cover for it so that it is symmetrical again. This is like the DISH 1000.4 all over again....

Still, a pretty cool piece of tech.


----------



## slice1900

No one is going to make a cover for that, if you want one you'll have to make one yourself.


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> No one is going to make a cover for that, if you want one you'll have to make one yourself.


Somebody could probably figure out how to 3D print it. It doesn't really matter, as when I get D*, I won't need the 5LNB setup anyway. Good thing, since 119 is really low in in Hartford-New Haven, which sucked for people when our LiLs were out there. Still, what a horrendous looking LNB. After the gorgeous design they did on the OG SL5, it's sad that they went with such an awful/cheap design here.


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## slice1900

I guess there's no accounting for taste, I don't find the original one "gorgeous" in any way, nor do I find the new one "horrendous". Satellite dishes are by their nature kind of ugly, such a small difference in the LNB doesn't affect that either way IMHO.


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## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> I guess there's no accounting for taste, I don't find the original one "gorgeous" in any way, nor do I find the new one "horrendous". Satellite dishes are by their nature kind of ugly, such a small difference in the LNB doesn't affect that either way IMHO.


Although I always found the entire Slimline ODU design an improvement over it's short lived predecessor the AT-9. And in particular felt the sidecar LNB design the ugliest part.

But no, I have no problem at all with the aesthetics of removing the useless blank left side (looking from the front) portion of the Slimline LNB.

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## HoTat2

Though it does appear the Eagle Aspen/ PBI SL-5 LNB design is more appropriate where the inward curvature of it's feedhorns complement the opposite curvature of the main reflector as opposed to WNC's straight across design.

This appears particularly so for the 119W feedhorn where the majority of it's signal energy from the wing satellite (D7S) comes bouncing in to the feedhorn from the left side of the reflector (again looking at the front of the ODU) and therefore from the most opposite side from the feedhorn's side.

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## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Though it does appear the Eagle Aspen/ PBI SL-5 LNB design is more appropriate where the inward curvature of it's feedhorns complement the opposite curvature of the main reflector as opposed to WNC's straight across design.
> 
> This appears particularly so for the 119W feedhorn where the majority of it's signal energy from the wing satellite (D7S) comes bouncing in to the feedhorn from the left side of the reflector (again looking at the front of the ODU) and therefore from the most opposite side from the feedhorn's side.


Interesting that they are different. I wonder if there is an actual difference in CNR from that? Not that it really matters for 119...


----------



## Bigg

slice1900 said:


> I guess there's no accounting for taste, I don't find the original one "gorgeous" in any way, nor do I find the new one "horrendous". Satellite dishes are by their nature kind of ugly, such a small difference in the LNB doesn't affect that either way IMHO.


The old was really was an amazing piece of industrial design, in order to convince people to plop a satellite dish on their roof. The Phase III was good in it's time, although it's ugly now just because it's obsolete, and anyone in the know can tell that it's been an abandoned piece of roof junk for 6+ years at this point. Get them off the roof people!

I really think that they just didn't give a crap with this monstrosity because AFAIK, only spanish and foreign language packages get the 5 satellites now? For a long time, some locals were still hanging around on 119 in a lot of markets, but now they figure it's a niche product for a market where cable really doesn't compete. Are there any local markets that don't have HD, or still require channels off of 119 for English language programming?


----------



## texasbrit

yES, many places have sd locals on119..


----------



## HoTat2

texasbrit said:


> yES, many places have sd locals on119..


Though I think all or virtually all local markets on Ku 119W are mirrored on the Ka band at 99 or 103W nowadays. So the local programming on 119W is now mainly for subs. there with SD only equipment.

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----------



## HoTat2

Bigg said:


> ...
> 
> I really think that they just didn't give a crap with this monstrosity because AFAIK, only spanish and foreign language packages get the 5 satellites now? For a long time, some locals were still hanging around on 119 in a lot of markets, but now they figure it's a niche product for a market where cable really doesn't compete. Are there any local markets that don't have HD, or still require channels off of 119 for English language programming?


As previously stated, unless you have SD locals on 119W and SD MPEG-2 only equipment in your installation, you don't need 119W for "virtually" all other English programming.

That being said, or unless you have a goofy situation like I'm in where I have a sibling (sister) who pays a large chunk of the monthly bill here and loves the SonicTap music channel "Holidays & Happenings" (chs. 815 and 9567) that DIRECTV frustrating keeps on the 119W satellite except for a temporary mirror to 101W for the Holiday season beginning after Thanksgiving and ending around mid-January .

Thus have to wait until someone gets their hands on the new 5D2RB posted earlier.

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----------



## doctor j

HoTat2 said:


> As previously stated, unless you have SD locals on 119W and SD MPEG-2 only equipment in your installation, you don't need 119W for "virtually" all other English programming.
> 
> That being said, or unless you have a goofy situation like I'm in where I have a sibling (sister) who pays a large chunk of the monthly bill here and loves the SonicTap music channel "Holidays & Happenings" (chs. 815 and 9567) that DIRECTV frustrating keeps on the 119W satellite except for a temporary mirror to 101W for the Holiday season beginning after Thanksgiving and ending around mid-January .
> 
> Thus have to wait until someone gets their hands on the new 5D2RB posted earlier.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


I feel your pain brother!

Search e-bay every day for 5D2RB LNB

Nothing today, again, arrrgh!
Maybe SOOOOON?

Doctor j


----------



## HoTat2

doctor j said:


> I feel your pain brother!
> 
> Search e-bay every day for 5D2RB LNB
> 
> Nothing today, again, arrrgh!
> Maybe SOOOOON?
> 
> Doctor j


Yeah, ... after that sub. in South Point, OH. received one for his 4K install, hopes are up for it soon on ebay.

Still nothing though ... darn it ... 

Although this strange one had me going for a minute ... until I took a closer look. Lol. 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/DIRECTV-SL5-LNB-FOR-Slimline-Dish-SL5K4NR2-01-LNB-AU9-SL5-Ka-Ku-HD-LNB-/272222635389?nav=SEARCH

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----------



## Bigg

HoTat2 said:


> As previously stated, unless you have SD locals on 119W and SD MPEG-2 only equipment in your installation, you don't need 119W for "virtually" all other English programming.
> 
> That being said, or unless you have a goofy situation like I'm in where I have a sibling (sister) who pays a large chunk of the monthly bill here and loves the SonicTap music channel "Holidays & Happenings" (chs. 815 and 9567) that DIRECTV frustrating keeps on the 119W satellite except for a temporary mirror to 101W for the Holiday season beginning after Thanksgiving and ending around mid-January .
> 
> Thus have to wait until someone gets their hands on the new 5D2RB posted earlier.


So are there markets that still need MPEG-2 SD locals off of 119, or have they all been consolidated onto the Ka band satellites? Hartford-New Haven is entirely on Ka band now, but we're also way far north and east, so 119 is really low in the sky, and they had more of an incentive to get us on Ka, and we're a relatively large market compared to a lot of them.


----------



## HoTat2

Bigg said:


> So are there markets that still need MPEG-2 SD locals off of 119, or have they all been consolidated onto the Ka band satellites? ...


Yes, I think they all have been by now.

But as was said, not all subscriber equipment in use for those markets is HD. Some are SD only which still need those legacy 119W feeds for the local stations.

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----------



## tomspeer46

Bigg said:


> Somebody could probably figure out how to 3D print it. It doesn't really matter, as when I get D*, I won't need the 5LNB setup anyway. Good thing, since 119 is really low in in Hartford-New Haven, which sucked for people when our LiLs were out there. Still, what a horrendous looking LNB. After the gorgeous design they did on the OG SL5, it's sad that they went with such an awful/cheap design here.


I guess I am more about function than aesthetics. I always thought that useless lump of plastic on the side of an SL5 was ridiculous, and it makes storing one more difficult. I have an SL5S (8 tuner) in my spare parts that I haven't bothered to put on Ebay, because the size of the box has to be so large, that the shipping costs make it uneconomical to market.


----------



## HoTat2

tomspeer46 said:


> I guess I am more about function than aesthetics. I always thought that useless lump of plastic on the side of an SL5 was ridiculous, and it makes storing one more difficult. I have an SL5S (8 tuner) in my spare parts that I haven't bothered to put on Ebay, because the size of the box has to be so large, that the shipping costs make it uneconomical to market.


Thought for a long time that space may have been reserved for the later addition of a 95W feedhorn to a linear LNB for WD service if necessary and eliminate the need for a separate dish. But obviously nothing ever came of it.

Perhaps the gain of an off-axis reception of the Slimeline ODU wouldn't have been sufficient for the MP levels of the G3C's FSS Ku band payload.

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----------



## slice1900

HoTat2 said:


> Thought for a long time that space may have been reserved for the later addition of a 95W feedhorn to a linear LNB for WD service if necessary and eliminate the need for a separate dish. But obviously nothing ever came of it.
> 
> Perhaps the gain of an off-axis reception of the Slimeline ODU wouldn't have been sufficient for the MP levels of the G3C's FSS Ku band payload.


I think I remember VOS saying once such a thing couldn't work, because G3C is linear polarization.


----------



## HoTat2

slice1900 said:


> I think I remember VOS saying once such a thing couldn't work, because G3C is linear polarization.


If he did, then I don't really see what prevents a linear feedhorn combined with other circular feedhorns on the same monoblock assembly.

The dish tilt setting used for the circular LNBs will automatically set the proper LNB skew for the linear one as well.

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----------



## inkahauts

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, I think they all have been by now.
> 
> But as was said, not all subscriber equipment in use for those markets is HD. Some are SD only which still need those legacy 119W feeds for the local stations.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


What about the stations that aren't in Hi Definition at all off 119? Are they all mirrored in mpeg4 SD as well?


----------



## KyL416

inkahauts said:


> What about the stations that aren't in Hi Definition at all off 119? Are they all mirrored in mpeg4 SD as well?


Most 119 markets are now mirrored, however there are a few markets that have SD only channels only on 119

The person that got the 5 LNB model is in one of those markets, in the Charleston-Huntington, WV market WKAS is only available on 119.


----------



## slice1900

inkahauts said:


> What about the stations that aren't in Hi Definition at all off 119? Are they all mirrored in mpeg4 SD as well?


No, they're not.


----------



## Bigg

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, I think they all have been by now.
> 
> But as was said, not all subscriber equipment in use for those markets is HD. Some are SD only which still need those legacy 119W feeds for the local stations.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Oh, I was thinking that there were no SWiM SD receivers, but there are the D12, R16, and R22. The R22 appears to have MPEG-4 support, not sure about the other two. I'd figure at this point, if they were converting somebody to RDBS, they'd probably swap out any left over D12s or R22s if people still have them instead of going to a 5 LNB setup. There are probably very few people trying to get 4k who also have SD boxes, although I suppose there are situations where a spouse or extended family member has one on an old TV, and the account holder wants to get their new 4k TV up and running or something.

In the case of older non-SWiM equipment, those have to be redone for SWiM anyway to get 4k with Genie.



tomspeer46 said:


> I guess I am more about function than aesthetics. I always thought that useless lump of plastic on the side of an SL5 was ridiculous, and it makes storing one more difficult. I have an SL5S (8 tuner) in my spare parts that I haven't bothered to put on Ebay, because the size of the box has to be so large, that the shipping costs make it uneconomical to market.


It was brilliant industrial design in it's day. But yes, it took up more space in a box or warehouse for no functionality other than aesthetics. But having a good looking dish probably sold a few people on DirecTV over something else.



KyL416 said:


> Most 119 markets are now mirrored, however there are a few markets that have SD only channels only on 119
> 
> The person that got the 5 LNB model is in one of those markets, in the Charleston-Huntington, WV market WKAS is only available on 119.


Weird. Our SD channel is mirrored, but we're DMA #26 or 28 or something (we keep sliding down), and we're far north, so the mirroring here will get them more subs who either can't get LOS from 99 to 119, or for whom 119 is too low. What's positively bizarre is that our SV market (NYC) is SD only, and they don't have all the channels like cable does. It makes sense for cable to only have one DMA in HD for bandwidth reasons, but for DirecTV, they're up there anyway, so why wouldn't they?


----------



## KyL416

Satellite providers are limited to the stations on the significantly viewed list. Cable is free to add a lot more than just the channels on the significantly viewed list, like independents and non-commercial stations, as long as they have consent to do so and respect exclutivity requests by blacking out programming claimed by local stations.

I assume you're in the Hartford DMA, they don't actually have any SD only in market locals like others do so once all their HD locals were added they were covered. As for NYC, the local channels in Connecticut complained and only allowed them to deliver NYC locals in the soutwest and the one Boston local in the Northeast of the market if they made them SD only and not carry the HD feeds. Although the newer rules from last year now forbid local stations from blocking significantly viewed locals so that may change in the future.


For smaller markets the spotbeams are shared with multiple markets, so some of them didn't have room to add SD simulcasts, while others are actually remaps of a station in a neighboring market like a statewide station, and the corresponding HD feed is on a spotbeam doesn't cover the market. WKAS is part of the statewide PBS network KET and is a remap of WKLE from Lexington.

In NYC it's kind of the opposite. the SD feed of WEDH is on a spotbeam that doesn't cover the entire NYC DMA, so the mirror of WEDH they use to deliver WEDW on channel 49 for the NYC market is HD only.


----------



## studechip

Bigg said:


> So are there markets that still need MPEG-2 SD locals off of 119, or have they all been consolidated onto the Ka band satellites? Hartford-New Haven is entirely on Ka band now, but we're also way far north and east, so 119 is really low in the sky, and they had more of an incentive to get us on Ka, and we're a relatively large market compared to a lot of them.


Are you saying that the Hartford sd locals aren't on 119 anymore?


----------



## KyL416

studechip said:


> Are you saying that the Hartford sd locals aren't on 119 anymore?


The SD locals are still on 119, but since all of Hartford's locals are available in HD, HD subscribers are able to get all their locals with a slimline 3.


----------



## studechip

KyL416 said:


> The SD locals are still on 119, but since all of Hartford's locals are available in HD, HD subscribers are able to get all their locals with a slimline 3.


Yes, but that is true for nearly all the dmas with sd locals on 119.


----------



## KyL416

studechip said:


> Yes, but that is true for nearly all the dmas with sd locals on 119.


There are markets like the one listed above that still have SD only channels that are only available with 119. The person who posted pictures of the 5 LNB version of the reverse band LNB is in one of those markets.

Many other 119 markets now have MPEG4/SD simulcasts of SD only channels, but for various reasons not all of them do. In the Charleston-Huntington, WV case, the SD only station is a remap of Kentucky's statewide PBS station from Lexington which has one of their transmitters in that market, but for what I'm guessing is spotbeam coverage issues with the HD feed, only the SD feed is remapped.


----------



## veryoldschool

HoTat2 said:


> If he did, then I don't really see what prevents a linear feedhorn combined with other circular feedhorns on the same monoblock assembly.
> 
> The dish tilt setting used for the circular LNBs will automatically set the proper LNB skew for the linear one as well.


We've kicked this around before.
While tilt puts the LNBs "inline" with the SATs, since each linear polarized SAT points to the north pole, The location of the dish may affect the skew needed.

"For example"...
Enter Portland OR in dishpointer.

Select the 95W SAT:
Elevation: 30.9°
Azimuth (true): 143.7°
Azimuth (magn.): 128.2°
*LNB Skew [?]: -24.5°*

Now Select the SL5 dish
Elevation: 33.4°
Azimuth (true): 150.9°
Azimuth (magn.): 135.3°
*Dish Skew [?]: 109.9°*

Dish Skew & LNB Skew should have some "common" relationship [ie 0º, 90º, etc.] which they don't


----------



## Bigg

KyL416 said:


> Satellite providers are limited to the stations on the significantly viewed list. Cable is free to add a lot more than just the channels on the significantly viewed list, like independents and non-commercial stations, as long as they have consent to do so and respect exclutivity requests by blacking out programming claimed by local stations.
> 
> I assume you're in the Hartford DMA, they don't actually have any SD only in market locals like others do so once all their HD locals were added they were covered. As for NYC, the local channels in Connecticut complained and only allowed them to deliver NYC locals in the soutwest and the one Boston local in the Northeast of the market if they made them SD only and not carry the HD feeds. Although the newer rules from last year now forbid local stations from blocking significantly viewed locals so that may change in the future.
> 
> For smaller markets the spotbeams are shared with multiple markets, so some of them didn't have room to add SD simulcasts, while others are actually remaps of a station in a neighboring market like a statewide station, and the corresponding HD feed is on a spotbeam doesn't cover the market. WKAS is part of the statewide PBS network KET and is a remap of WKLE from Lexington.
> 
> In NYC it's kind of the opposite. the SD feed of WEDH is on a spotbeam that doesn't cover the entire NYC DMA, so the mirror of WEDH they use to deliver WEDW on channel 49 for the NYC market is HD only.


So who makes the list? Whoever made it is utterly incompetent, as they put CBS, FOX, and NBC on it, but not ABC or PBS. HUH? PBS is kinda different from the big networks, but missing ABC is just plain bizarre.

Yeah, we're in Hartford-New Haven. Ah, so the law finally caught up with using common sense. Of course the lobbyists are all in Washington making them do stupid stuff, but IMO, DirecTV should be able to plop whatever locals they want wherever they feel like. If they want to turn LA and NYC on for all subs, they should be able to do that. If the local stations don't like it, tough ****. Hopefully they match Frontier, where they provide everything SV in HD. Like Frontier, it does't take DirecTV any extra bandwidth, they already have the signals up there, and they must cover the whole SV area, as they have to cover the whole NYC DMA (are they CONUS for DNS anyway)? Our local CBS is an incompetent disaster, and they would lose viewership if WCBS was available. I don't know about NBC, FOX, and ABC as our local channels are fine. I think if anything, they might net-net pick up viewers by being avialable in HD in Fairfield County. I hear people in the Danbury area complaining that they don't get Hartford-New Haven locals in HD on Comcast. I believe the other cable providers carry both sets in HD, even though that takes some extra bandwidth up.

Why would WEDH be available in the whole DMA? It would only cover CT down to Greenwich, I would think? That's even weirder. PBS gets really strange. On cable in Groton, I get THE WGBH, while in Madison, they get WNET, and much of the central part of the state gets WGBY. The weird part is that they are not like the big 4 where they all show the same programming. PBSes are all over the place. I prefer WNET or WBGH, but only because WEDH has too many subchannels and looks like a complete mess. D* might have a feed before their compression, so it might look better than OTA/cable.\



KyL416 said:


> The SD locals are still on 119, but since all of Hartford's locals are available in HD, HD subscribers are able to get all their locals with a slimline 3.


Correct. There is one SD only local, but I don't even know what it is, and I've lived here all my life. The SL3s help with installation a lot, because of the types of development and trees we have, and how low 119 is in the sky for us. 99c/101/103c is still not as high as DISH's 61.5/72.7/77 setup, but it's a huge improvement over 99c/101/103c/110/119.


----------



## HoTat2

veryoldschool said:


> We've kicked this around before.
> While tilt puts the LNBs "inline" with the SATs, since each linear polarized SAT points to the north pole, The location of the dish may affect the skew needed.
> 
> "For example"...
> Enter Portland OR in dishpointer.
> 
> Select the 95W SAT:
> Elevation: 30.9°
> Azimuth (true): 143.7°
> Azimuth (magn.): 128.2°
> *LNB Skew [?]: -24.5°*
> 
> Now Select the SL5 dish
> Elevation: 33.4°
> Azimuth (true): 150.9°
> Azimuth (magn.): 135.3°
> *Dish Skew [?]: 109.9°*
> 
> Dish Skew & LNB Skew should have some "common" relationship [ie 0º, 90º, etc.] which they don't


But there is a common relationship VOS.

For instance on dishpointer.com, if you select 95W under the Multi-LNB category you get the same Az-El coordinates as you list above except that now the terminology changes from "LNB skew" to "Dish skew" which is of course the same as "Dish tilt."

Then, to get LNB skew from this is simply 90° - Dish tilt, which for Portland, OR. is 114.5,° which equals -24.5° again.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


----------



## veryoldschool

HoTat2 said:


> But there is a common relationship VOS.
> 
> For instance on dishpointer.com, if you select 95W under the Multi-LNB category you get the same Az-El coordinates as you list above except that now the terminology changes from "LNB skew" to "Dish skew" which is of course the same as "Dish tilt."
> 
> Then, to get LNB skew from this is simply 90° - Dish tilt, which for Portland, OR. is 114.5,° which equals -24.5° again.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


You're comparing the same data.

"If" you compare it to the SL5, it doesn't match.

For it to work [the way you want] the dish tilt for the SL5 "HAS TO" be the same for the 95W/101, which 114.5º & 109.9º aren't

Let's look at this closer:

"IF" the dish tilt is to align the LNBs to the ARC of the SATs, which it does, "AND" each SAT is pointed north, "Then" the skew of each LNB would be the same for your concept to work.

If we use Portland again and look at each SAT alone:
LNB Skew angles vary for each:
-24.5º 95W
-21.4º 99.2W
-19.9º 101W
-18.5º 102.8W
-12.2º 110W
-3.6º 119W

As should be clear, this is why circular polarization has to be used, or each LNB would need to be aligned in a multi-SAT dish.
"Tilt" aligns the row of LNBs to the SAT arc and skew would align each LNB for vertical or horizontal polarization.


----------



## HoTat2

veryoldschool said:


> You're comparing the same data.
> 
> "If" you compare it to the SL5, it doesn't match.
> 
> For it to work [the way you want] the dish tilt for the SL5 "HAS TO" be the same for the 95W/101, which 114.5º & 109.9º aren't
> 
> Let's look at this closer:
> 
> "IF" the dish tilt is to align the LNBs to the ARC of the SATs, which it does, "AND" each SAT is pointed north, "Then" the skew of each LNB would be the same for your concept to work.
> 
> If we use Portland again and look at each SAT alone:
> LNB Skew angles vary for each:
> -24.5º 95W
> -21.4º 99.2W
> -19.9º 101W
> -18.5º 102.8W
> -12.2º 110W
> -3.6º 119W
> 
> As should be clear, this is why circular polarization has to be used, or each LNB would need to be aligned in a multi-SAT dish.
> "Tilt" aligns the row of LNBs to the SAT arc and skew would align each LNB for vertical or horizontal polarization.


Yes, I understand all this ...

But that is because the 95W dish and the SL-5 are not boresighted on the same satellite position. The 95W dish is boresighted on 95W of course and the SL-5 is at 101W.

If the two were boresighted on the same satellite position however, say 95W for instance, which you can't get the dishpointer.com app to do for the SL-5 of course. The Az-El coordinate data for the SL-5 would now be the same as the 95W dish and have a Dish tilt (or "Dish skew" by DP) listing of 114.5° matching the -24.5° LNB skew of the 95W dish (90° - 114.5°).

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## veryoldschool

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, I understand all this ...
> 
> But that is because the 95W dish and the SL-5 are not boresighted on the same satellite position. The 95W dish is boresighted on 95W of course and the SL-5 is at 101W.
> 
> If the two were boresighted on the same satellite position however, say 95W for instance, which you can't get the dishpointer.com app to do for the SL-5 of course. The Az-El coordinate data for the SL-5 would now be the same as the 95W dish and have a Dish tilt (or "Dish skew" by DP) listing of 114.5° matching the -24.5° LNB skew of the 95W dish (90° - 114.5°)


You don't get it.

The list of skews above are boresighted on each SAT, yet the skew varies for each BECAUSE of the angle to the receiving dish.

You're "locked in" to a view from space down to the earth, which would have all the skews "lined up" pointing north.
The "distortion" comes from looking up at the SATs and how "their orientation" appears to the dish on earth.

I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer. It's "simply" three dimensional geometry.


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## HoTat2

Yeah I guess I don't get it if that's the case ...

For example, whether I have a linear LNB on a round dish pointed at a given satellite position and then have to physically skew the LNB to match the angle of arrival of the signal at my location.

Or if I have a linear LNB lined up on the major and minor axises of an elliptical dish like the WD dish is, and aimed at the same satellite position. Then I tilt the plane of the dish to match the angle of the Clarke belt from my location thus causing the attached LNB to rotate by the same angle.

The LNB should end up skewed by the same angle to properly receive the signal in both cases.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## veryoldschool

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah I guess I don't get it if that's the case ...
> 
> For example, whether I have a linear LNB on a round dish pointed at a given satellite position and then have to physically skew the LNB to match the angle of arrival of the signal at my location.
> 
> Or if I have a linear LNB lined up on the major and minor axises of an elliptical dish like the WD dish is, and aimed at the same satellite position. Then I tilt the plane of the dish to match the angle of the Clarke belt from my location thus causing the attached LNB to rotate by the same angle.
> 
> The LNB should end up skewed by the same angle to properly receive the signal in both cases.


Yeah, I sort of knew/saw that you were "that far", but where you haven't [yet] progressed to is that this doesn't work for a multiple SAT dish/LNB.

Think of a very large WD dish with a "row" of LNBs.

You'd adjust the tilt for the major/minor axises "but" have to tweak each LNB for the exact skew variation [if linear polarization were used on each] .

The SL5 "doesn't care" about the 17.9º variation of skew [in Portland] because 99 through 119 are circular polarized so there isn't an "up".


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## HoTat2

Hey, interstingly enough VOS;

After some more thought, believe it or not, I finally understand it now ...

Yes, I see now that placing a 95W feedhorn on the Slimline LNB would require it to have an adjustable skew creating additional complexity and headaches for the installers.

The problem I'm trying to reconcile in my mind now though is how all the other services receiving from Ku band satellites with linear polarized xpndrs and using fixed or monoblock linear multi-LNBFs are having no problems doing it (at least that I know of)?

Like in Europe with the Astra, Eutelsat and Eutelsat Hotbird series all at different orbital slots.

Or Shaw Direct up in Canada at two different orbital slots.

Even the new Sky Mexico HD service is now at two orbital slots.

The linear feedhorns on all these LNBs are fixed, with no individual adjustments for tweaking the skew settings for them.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## James Long

Bigg said:


> So who makes the list? Whoever made it is utterly incompetent, as they put CBS, FOX, and NBC on it, but not ABC or PBS. HUH? PBS is kinda different from the big networks, but missing ABC is just plain bizarre.


The list is maintained by the FCC. It was initially created decades ago based on the stations that existed and were significantly viewed at that time. Stations can ask to be added to the list. To be added stations must show that they have significant over the air reception in the community in question. (Cable viewership does not count.) Since the list was created for cable companies, stations that had cable carriage didn't bother to get themselves on the list (the goal was carriage, not being listed). Now that the list is applied to satellite stations may not have significant over the air viewership. Or they simply may not have asked to be added.

Individual stations would need to be researched individually to figure out why that particular station is not listed. But the above information may help you guess.


----------



## Bigg

James Long said:


> The list is maintained by the FCC. It was initially created decades ago based on the stations that existed and were significantly viewed at that time. Stations can ask to be added to the list. To be added stations must show that they have significant over the air reception in the community in question. (Cable viewership does not count.) Since the list was created for cable companies, stations that had cable carriage didn't bother to get themselves on the list (the goal was carriage, not being listed). Now that the list is applied to satellite stations may not have significant over the air viewership. Or they simply may not have asked to be added.
> 
> Individual stations would need to be researched individually to figure out why that particular station is not listed. But the above information may help you guess.


Weird. Some channels must not have tried to get on the list then. We have very low OTA viewership in general, so that wouldn't really help. They should go at least in part by cable, as that would be fair for competition. Comcast carries some channels that would be virtually impossible to pick up with OTA in the places that they are carried.


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## gwade

Minor cross post, but could be unrelated problems. I have a SWM13 with: HR44, HR20, HR21 that was all working "swimmingly", all MRV worked perfectly. I just replaced the HR20 with a new HR24 and it simply refuses to show a satellite option for 19-Slimline 3DS, it stops at 18. In my area the normal dish is 17-SL3 SWM. Tried resetting, tried unplugging. My other two receivers clearly show a 13 LNB multiswitch in the dish setup, but this unit just won't see it.

Help?


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## gwade

Short answer. Fixed with a forced firmware update to the "new" HR24.


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## Lord Vader

Can someone refresh my memory as to how many tuners this SWM13 has been successfully tested with which to work? I thought I read somewhere that it was 20, but I'm not sure.


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## inkahauts

With non 4K and non rb version it seems 21 is the number. If it's the right version. And if it's a rb version then it might be 2 till 4K hits then drop to 13 but we really don't know yet.


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## Lord Vader

Well, I know it's at least 18, because I have that many total tuners running successfully on it now. However, one of my HR20-700s (I have two in use), which would add 2 more tuners to the mix, for a total of 20, has been literally inoperable since shortly after I moved and had this SWM13 installed. I get nothing but errors when I try to add that to the mix. It DID work for a brief time, then began the litany of errors. 

I can't go on to the roof to replace that SWM, but I'm wondering if I'd be able to add another physical multiswitch to the mix. I have a couple of those lying around but don't know if I'd even be able to use them.


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## inkahauts

Well, first thing I'd do is try moving a working unit to the coax that is connected to the DVR that's not working while leaving the DVR that's not currently working disconnected. That will tell you if it's simply a line issue which it could be. Then try connecting the non working unit to a coax you know is working right... I'd do that before messing with other stuff. And you can't add a multiswitch to a swim lnb...


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## texasbrit

Lord Vader said:


> Well, I know it's at least 18, because I have that many total tuners running successfully on it now. However, one of my HR20-700s (I have two in use), which would add 2 more tuners to the mix, for a total of 20, has been literally inoperable since shortly after I moved and had this SWM13 installed. I get nothing but errors when I try to add that to the mix. It DID work for a brief time, then began the litany of errors.
> 
> I can't go on to the roof to replace that SWM, but I'm wondering if I'd be able to add another physical multiswitch to the mix. I have a couple of those lying around but don't know if I'd even be able to use them.


I've tested it with 21 tuners OK.....but I have nothing as old as the Hr20


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## P Smith

IMO, old FW cannot handle extended set of DSWiM Gen2 cmds - seems to me the LV config is just running in a "race" condition for basic [Gen1 ?] set of SWIM channels - 8 or 13 max


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## Lord Vader

I do have a second HR20-700 and an HR22 that are running fine off the SWM13.


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## P Smith

Lord Vader said:


> I do have a second HR20-700 and an HR22 that are running fine off the SWM13.


if you're willing to investigate it - check your PM


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## Lord Vader

inkahauts said:


> Well, first thing I'd do is try moving a working unit to the coax that is connected to the DVR that's not working while leaving the DVR that's not currently working disconnected. That will tell you if it's simply a line issue which it could be. Then try connecting the non working unit to a coax you know is working right... I'd do that before messing with other stuff. And you can't add a multiswitch to a swim lnb...


Sometimes it's the "Duh!" moments we forget to do. I finally got the additional bedroom TV hooked up and simply moved the problematic DVR to that room. I connected it and voila! Both of its tuners are working just fine. So, I've got a total of 20 tuners operating off the SWM13. I'm guessing that's about all it will be able to handle. ☺


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## HoTat2

Lord Vader said:


> Sometimes it's the "Duh!" moments we forget to do. I finally got the additional bedroom TV hooked up and simply moved the problematic DVR to that room. I connected it and voila! Both of its tuners are working just fine. So, I've got a total of 20 tuners operating off the SWM13. I'm guessing that's about all it will be able to handle. ☺


The DSWM-13 LNB with 20 tuners supported?

This is the first gen. DSWM LNB 3D1LNBR0-01?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## Lord Vader

It's the SWM13 referenced on page 1 of this thread.


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## HoTat2

Now I'm really confused then ... 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## David Ortiz

HoTat2 said:


> Now I'm really confused then ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


No need. He has the 3D2... http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/222418-need-new-equipment-what-are-my-options/?p=3433283


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## Lord Vader

Indeed.


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## Billd300

Lord Vader said:


> Sometimes it's the "Duh!" moments we forget to do. I finally got the additional bedroom TV hooked up and simply moved the problematic DVR to that room. I connected it and voila! Both of its tuners are working just fine. So, I've got a total of 20 tuners operating off the SWM13. I'm guessing that's about all it will be able to handle. ☺


Do you have the whole home working with all 20 tuners


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## Lord Vader

Yes. All tuners and all DVRs are working on Whole Home service.


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## Billd300

Lord Vader said:


> Yes. All tuners and all DVRs are working on Whole Home service.


Thank you for the info. I had read where it was limited to 16 but was hoping this would work for more. I have a genie and 5 HDDVRs and want to add another HDDDVR


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## veryoldschool

Billd300 said:


> Thank you for the info. I had read where it was limited to 16 but was hoping this would work for more. I have a genie and 5 HDDVRs and want to add another HDDDVR


The 16 limit is for the coax/DECA and not tuners.
"So" a Genie with 5 tuners is only one DECA node.
A dual tuner DVR is just one node, like a single tuner receiver.


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## slice1900

Maxlinear's most recent quarterly earnings call had some interesting information. According to them, Directv is splitting their orders between Maxlinear and Broadcom for DSWM chips. They're also seeing a steep decline in orders for analog SWM chips, which they are the only supplier of. Obviously Directv still needs them for SWM switches, but they might finally be halting production of new analog SWM LNBs and be draining inventory at this point, though Maxlinear did say they don't have a lot of visibility into the future plans of the "large North American operator".

They also provided some comparative pricing info - the analog SWM chipsets sell for between $8 and $10, and the digital for between $5 and $7. Perhaps the reason Directv has taken so long to transition despite pricing crossover likely having been reached over a year ago is qualification across the whole mix, i.e. three OEMs producing LNBs, chips from two different OEMs going into the LNBs (and possibly more than one from each since the reverse band LNBs would require 5 or 6 inputs internally while some chips only offer 4) and four models (3D1/3D2/3DR/5DR) of LNB - though one would presume they no longer make the 3D1/3D2.


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## veryoldschool

slice1900 said:


> Maxlinear's most recent quarterly earnings call had some interesting information. According to them, Directv is splitting their orders between Maxlinear and Broadcom for DSWM chips. They're also seeing a steep decline in orders for analog SWM chips, which they are the only supplier of. Obviously Directv still needs them for SWM switches, but they might finally be halting production of new analog SWM LNBs and be draining inventory at this point, though Maxlinear did say they don't have a lot of visibility into the future plans of the "large North American operator".
> 
> They also provided some comparative pricing info - the analog SWM chipsets sell for between $8 and $10, and the digital for between $5 and $7. Perhaps the reason Directv has taken so long to transition despite pricing crossover likely having been reached over a year ago is qualification across the whole mix, i.e. three OEMs producing LNBs, chips from two different OEMs going into the LNBs (and possibly more than one from each since the reverse band LNBs would require 5 or 6 inputs internally while some chips only offer 4) and four models (3D1/3D2/3DR/5DR) of LNB - though one would presume they no longer make the 3D1/3D2.


This really doesn't have anything to do with the topic [being First look].

If you have the need for a post like this again, use another thread please.


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## HoTat2

Although I'm seeing a lot of 3D2 LNBs going up on all new installs here in the LA market.

New 3D1s appear to be gone now ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## peds48

HoTat2 said:


> Although I'm seeing a lot of 3D2 LNBs going up on all new installs here in the LA market.
> 
> *New 3D1s appear to be gone now* ...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Not quite correct. It seems that availability is by market. NYC has zero 3D2 but has tons of 3D1

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2

peds48 said:


> Not quite correct. It seems that availability is by market. NYC has zero 3D2 but has tons of 3D1
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yeah, that's what I meant ...

In this market at least I haven't really noticed any 3D1s on new installations for awhile now ...

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## Lord Vader

peds48 said:


> Not quite correct. It seems that availability is by market. NYC has zero 3D2 but has tons of 3D1
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Refresh my memory again as to the differences between the two models.


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## HoTat2

Lord Vader said:


> Refresh my memory again as to the differences between the two models.


The 3D1, the 1st generation Ka/Ku digital LNB for the Slimline dish, can support up to 13 tuners in an installation.

The 3D2, a 2nd generation Ka/Ku digital Slimlime LNB, can support up to 21 tuners.

Neither has the capability to receive the 17.3-17.7 GHz Reverse Band though.

Those would be the 3D2RB and 5D2RB.

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## Lord Vader

I'm assuming, then, that I have the 3D2, which I obtained in late 2015, because I am using several DVRs with a total of 20 tuners. However, one receiver seems to always have a problem with one of its tuners. I think this time, it may not be the actual receiver.


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## peds48

Lord Vader said:


> I'm assuming, then, that I have the 3D2, which I obtained in late 2015, because I am using several DVRs with a total of 20 tuners. However, one receiver seems to always have a problem with one of its tuners. I think this time, it may not be the actual receiver.


you may also have a reverse band LNB which is said that it can support up to 21 tuners unsupported

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## HoTat2

Under the Settings Info. for any of the DVRs. what does the "Dish Type:" say?

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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Under the Settings Info. for any of the DVRs. what does the "Dish Type:" say?


it does say "TIE Advanced x1"


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## tkrandall

I realize this thread is over 2 years old but I am just now coming up to speed on this "new" 13 tuner LNB. Being an engineer, my first question naturally was "but how did they get 13 SWM "channels" in the same frequency space that supported only 8 before, or did they expand the SWM frequency band?

From what I have learned ( Digital SWM theory and speculation ), the SWM-13 uses digital encoding in the SWM channels from the dish instead of analog, thereby squeezing more in the same frequency space.

My suggestion is that the "first look" should be revised to include this tidbit of how-it-works information, or include the above link.


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## slice1900

Most people don't care how it works, just that it does. There have been additional LNBs introduced since the 13 tuner model detailed in this thread. One with 21 tuners and the latest which also adds support for reverse band frequencies (which will eventually be required for 4K) which also has 21 tuners - but limited to 13 in certain cases if older receivers are connected.

Directv has recent patents indicating even more tuners may be supported in the future, as the limiting factor in channel spacing in current LNBs isn't what digital filtering can accomplish, but frequency inaccuracy/drift of the DRO used in the LNB. Directv showed off a "Digital SWM 30" switch a couple years ago which hasn't yet been released, perhaps it may space the channels closer and support 30 tuners from a single output, but it is probably more likely to be 15 tuners from each of two outputs.


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## Lord Vader

Is the SWM13 still limited to the 20 tuners? IIRC, someone had mentioned it's been tested as working for up to 20 tuners, or is that number 21?


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## HoTat2

Lord Vader said:


> Is the SWM13 still limited to the 20 tuners? IIRC, someone had mentioned it's been tested as working for up to 20 tuners, or is that number 21?


21 ... Plus one more for the guide data channel of course.

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## inkahauts

Lord Vader said:


> Is the SWM13 still limited to the 20 tuners? IIRC, someone had mentioned it's been tested as working for up to 20 tuners, or is that number 21?


The original one was 13 only. most now are second generation and can go to 21.


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## Lord Vader

OK, thanks. I ask because I currently have several DVRs, including an HR44, in a configuration totaling 20 tuners in use. I'm replacing an HR20-700 with an HR24. However, the HR20-700, which is still operable, has many recordings still sitting on it. I'd like to be able to use it at least for watching the recordings, which means I'd have to keep it activated on the account, unfortunately. However, this would push over the tuner limit, giving me 22. I'm figuring I could switch off one of the HR20-700's tuners to keep the total at 21 if this would work; otherwise, I'm open to suggestions. I'm pretty sure, however, that I have to keep its RG6 coax connected to make sure it remains activated for purposes of watching recordings.


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## P Smith

Lord Vader said:


> I'm figuring I could switch off one of the HR20-700's tuners to keep the total at 21


I would say it's best variant.


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## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> 21 ... Plus one more for the guide data channel of course.











The table of SWiM freqs came from my last measures when SWM-13 used @Nov'15. Later SWM-22 run did show how its freq match [in yellow] calculated freqs.
So, we see a current step is 51 MHz, counting Ka tpn as 36 MHz plus a gap [3-4 MHz] it could come to 40 MHz, so 30 SWM channels is doable without backward compatibility.


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## inkahauts

Lord Vader said:


> OK, thanks. I ask because I currently have several DVRs, including an HR44, in a configuration totaling 20 tuners in use. I'm replacing an HR20-700 with an HR24. However, the HR20-700, which is still operable, has many recordings still sitting on it. I'd like to be able to use it at least for watching the recordings, which means I'd have to keep it activated on the account, unfortunately. However, this would push over the tuner limit, giving me 22. I'm figuring I could switch off one of the HR20-700's tuners to keep the total at 21 if this would work; otherwise, I'm open to suggestions. I'm pretty sure, however, that I have to keep its RG6 coax connected to make sure it remains activated for purposes of watching recordings.


Disconnect all Ethernet and coax from the HR20. Reboot the receiver. Make sure You can still get to the play list and watch shows. You should be able to and the time frame appears to be very long these days. (Months or years). If so then deactivate the DVR and save the money.

Otherwise yeah, kick it to one tuner.


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