# Is the 508 unpopular?



## Dave_W (Dec 17, 2002)

I recently upgraded my ancient model 3000 receiver to a 508. I'm somewhat concerned about the reliability issues posted here and elsewhere, but so far... so good.

The installer mentioned that in the four months he has worked for Dish Network, he has installed almost 300 systems but only a half-dozen PVR's! That surprised me. I realize the 508 is $200 while the base system is essentially free, but a couple hundred bucks really isn't much money nowadays. And for me personally, with the base system I would have had to spend almost $100 for an IR remote extender and a second remote for use in my bedroom. So in effect, the 508 cost me only about $100 more.

I can't figure out why the 508 isn't more popular. I hope it's not a real "lemon" or something.

By the way... Office Max has a little UPS unit on sale this week for $19.95. I picked one up for use with my 508, since I live in a rural area with frequent 1 - 2 second power interruptions. From what I've read, the 508 seems to have problems with such things.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

It's the PVR that has still not won over "Their Hearts And Minds" 

D* basically had to give away the D*TiVo Reciever unit at $99 to get it out to more people. UTV sales never really took off either. People don't "understand it" unless they see it in action at a friends house or something. So depending on where you live and the average persons willing to adopt new technology, it may seem additionally skewed but not totally off the mark.

I would assume that you invite 10 people over to your house for a football game and you put it on pause mid play to goto the bathroom or answer the phone, or do the Instant Replay, or then watch last weeks "CSI" in 45 minutes they would be converted. But on the sales floor there isn't enough time to convince and the price has to be real low to for people to be convinced.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

It could also have to deal with retailers afraid to get it out on the market because of the higher failure rates, because the retailers do not want to have to deal with angry customers, loss of commissions due to equipment failure, and little or not additional income selling the PVR products. There is little reason to sell a PVR product over a base product when it comes to Dish.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Possible causes:

* The stigma from the DishPlayer failure. Even though DishPlayer and the 50x/721 are completely different products.
* Setup process. It takes about 15 minutes from the time you perform a check switch to the time the firmware is downloaded and ready to go. During this time, the 50x power downs and the green light blinks while a new firmware is uploaded. Some people think something is wrong, and pull the plug, causing the unit to go DOA.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Firmware should be in the box when it ships from the factory... Thus tested fewer DOAs

Really E should try the following for NEW subs. 

Give them a 508 for free, including 3 months of free PVR. At the end of 3 months they either pay a monthkly fee or one time fee to make up the cost difference in receivers.

This would get more PVRs in the field and really not cost a lot extra. They coiuld try this as a promo in a community thats unhappy with cable. A stunt that would get lots of attention to PVRs in general.

It takes time to create a market, soon the PVRs will explode. Standard receivers are near obsolete....


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

I think it's the fact that as a retailer, I have no additional incentive to sell it. Why should I carry expensive inventory like 508s when most people are interested and I have no incentive to do so?


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## DarrellP (Apr 24, 2002)

Dave, to answer your question, the 50x series, starting with the 501 almost 2 years ago, had a slew of issues when it was first released. Dish has done a good job of posting software updates in a timely manner and catering to most of our wants and desires for features.

If you would have purchased one of these more than about 6 months ago, you would have seen nothing but 501 posts here. They are fairly stable now but do require an occassional reboot.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2002)

Dave if dealers would buy one for their showroom and use it they would sell the living daylights out of them. I sell several every week usually under the Digital home plan where they are a $50 upgrade. I have 2 PVR 501's in my own personal system at home and I think they are great toys. If you do get one that is not under the Digital Home Plan I strongly advise buying the extended warranty from DISH for $1.99/Mo. it is worth while and cheap protection.


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

I agree with that, boba. They are only a good deal under DHP, however, DHP isn't a real good deal right now. 1 month of everything free is worth far less than the 3 months of regular channels and locals that they were offering before Aug 1. I try to fix that by breaking the rules and giving DHP customers 2 free Club Dish referals. Each are worth $60 and make up the difference. Without that DHP sucks.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

But then it is costing you $50 a peice in commissions too for each time the Club Dish Certificates are used. That is a total of $100.

I had a 501 in my showroom, and no sales. Most people would not even look at the showroom, they would call me on the phone to come over to do the install, rarely coming in. It looks bad when the unit starts freezing up, messing up, going bad, and so forth. It may make them think that Dish sells a bad product and that none of their receivers are any good. The word gets spread around too around here easily and I have enough problems as it is. 

People change the story or accuse you of things and it can really hurt business. After having to have my 501 replaced 3 times I quit the showroom account altogether, sick of the issues with the receiver. I would not recommend a 501 to anyone. I hear that 508 is a lot more stable. 

I sold 3 dishplayers and heard no complaints even though they had those bugs. It surprised me. They only had 5 hours of record time being a 7100. They never seen a demonstration before taking one either.


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

I already give away about 30% of my commission on each sale. I have extremely low overhead and this is how I compete. I PAY THE CUSTOMER $80 for each DHP activation and don't collect the $50. For Club Dish DHP, the $50 you lose is the $50 the customer pays. I already don't collect it so no loss. I target only 1 type of customer: the kind that wants the most programming for the least amount of money. Price is the only consideration. Most people want the best deal period.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

What I have found is this, if someone cannot afford a satellite system, they cannot afford the programming in many cases, they end up not paying their bill, in which results in a backcharge. Even if they do pay for their satellite system, sometimes they still do not pay their bill (lately not even their first bill - 2 months of programming) because they order more and more programming then do not pay a bill then comes another one and by that time they just cannot afford to put that kind of money out.

I think Dish should automatically downgrade programming when the bill gets to a certain dollar amount, preventing this problem.

Sometimes I give the customer a deal but if I see they just cannot afford it, I avoid them now. They want me to give them two deals when I can only give them one. They want a free system with two receivers AND $17 off each month.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

When I got my 501 installed over the summer, the guy said he (and the place he works for) hardly ever sells/installs 501s. He said that his managemnt didn't even offer to train the installers on how to use the PVR functions on the 501 because for the amount of installs they get, it's not worth it. With the 721 not mainstream at the time, this not being a real big HD market, my guess would be this area is saturated with 301s.

The same guy came to install my second dish a few weeks ago, and he still said by far the vast majority for boxes they install are the 301.


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

Jacob: well how do you know if they can't afford the satellite system when it's free? Secondly, if they can afford cable why can't they afford cheaper satellite. Just because somebody wants to lower their cable bill, doesn't make them a bad customers. Dish and Direct use the reason that cable raises their rates every year faster than DBS as a big reason if not the biggest reason to get DBS, so why should I not try to enhance that. The bottom line is overcharging somebody doesn't make them a good customer. It makes them a pissed off customer. That's what cable is for. You just gave the company line.


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## Dave_W (Dec 17, 2002)

Thanks for all the input on this. I ordered my system direct from Dish Network. I was really astonished when the installer (who works for Echostar, not an independent contractor) told me how few PVR's he had installed. I have a much better understanding now of what is going on.

I forgot to mention in my initial post that one of the reasons I went with the 508 instead of the 301 is the digital audio output. As far as I could determine, the 301 doesn't have it. And it really does improve the sound I get from my home theater setup. Not just with Dolby digital, but regular PCM stereo as well.

Assuming they've got most of the bugs out of the 508 (or at least that's what I'm hoping!), I think the 508 is a terrific product. It isn't as versatile or powerful as Tivo etc., but it does everything I want and it's easy to use. Somehow, they need to get the word out about this product.

And it really is a bargain at $200, especially since it includes the dish and installation. My unit has a Maxtor D540X 80 GB hard drive in it (almost totally silent by the way). Just for the heck of it, I did a quick search on Pricewatch and the lowest price for just the bare drive is $112. I wonder what Echostar's actual cost on the 508 is, and how long it takes them to get back the difference through programming fees?

And thanks for the tip on the extended warranty... I'm definitely going to add it to my account


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

When I said that they could not afford the satellite system, I was talking about non-credit card customers, so you misunderstood me on that aspect, as most of the customers I have had did not have them. At that point I cannot give them a promotion that requires a credit card in which enables them to get a free satellite system. Most of the people do not have cable because they live in the country where cable is not available, in which is the reason why they get a satellite, because of poor off air antenna reception because of trees and hills. 

I used to discount systems more but have found that those are the ones in which would not pay their bills, especially when I used to allow payments to be made on satellite systems. I think this bad economy has really stirred things up lately and affected things, with the layoffs, especially after 9/11. 

I did not overcharge the customers by charging retail price of the satellite system or not giving them a discount.

I try to get them a free system when I can, it is not my fault that they do not have credit cards. Some have credit cards but do not want them to be used.

It is supposed to be free after all of the discounts anyways after rebates of $17 a month for 12 months, and that is for 2 receivers installed. Sometimes I will negotiate with the customer if he/she is looking for a better deal or if someone has a little better deal than me. I also tell them that I service my product after the sale in which is very important.

I thought I have heard that there may be a new way of getting the customers a free satellite system in the future with a credit report without having to have a credit card. 

I do agree that just because they want to lower their cable bill does not make them bad customers, and I never said it did. 

It is just that I find that a lot of times people go from check to check and when unexpected things happen, certain bills do not get paid, and the satellite is usually one of the first things to go. 
That is why they give the customers a grace period in which they can do by paying for two months of service on the first bill. Sometimes they keep ordering more and more channels though and this is what causes most of the disconnects.


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

It's just that I disagree with the fact that if you don't discount the $199 Free-for-all price that good customers will still buy it. Customers that have credit cards and pay their bills want good deals too, sometimes even more. Dollar-for-dollar, Free-For-all is the best 2 receiver deal ever, even better than Free dish or "I Like 9" when you factor in equipment price drops, so that's what I push right now. My $80 price for the 2 receiver system is less than what Best Buy charges, but gives you $124 back after it's free. 
Most people might not have cable where you are, but they sure do here, every last one.


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## jeffwtux (Apr 27, 2002)

I meant have cable available.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dave_W _
> *I forgot to mention in my initial post that one of the reasons I went with the 508 instead of the 301 is the digital audio output. As far as I could determine, the 301 doesn't have it. And it really does improve the sound I get from my home theater setup. Not just with Dolby digital, but regular PCM stereo as well. *


That is one thing that dish has limited choices. I love the 301, and would have bought them instead of the Model 4000 and 4900s that I had prior (as the IR Blaster/Event Timer was what I wanted, not all the other stuff like UHF, DD, etc) But if you want DD or UHF remote you have to go for the 3 Non-Basic recievers (The 50x, 721 or 6000). Since the 6000 is the HD reciever, I really don't include it in the discussion of recievers as most people I know aren't at HD yet. But if they had a Model 401 (basically a 301 with DD and UHF remote) the customer base would be better served. But then you wouldn't have as many PVRs out there. As I bet many 50x converts became converts because they demanded DD or UHF remote and 50x was lowest point of entry.

I wonder if there are any 50x users out there who ignore the PVR option and use it like a more current model 4900? When I got the 508, had to retire my 4900 or 301. I kept the 4900 because of the DD capability. So the 301 while newer and "Cleaner" became the Reserve reciever. Now I just have 2 Model 4000s sitting in the closet that need a decent burial. I'm thinking maybe Dishdepot might take them off my hands for $20 each.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

If I was doing my initial Dish buy today, I would not consider the 301 - my whole reasons for getting the 4700 were the UHF remote and the TOSLINK connection. The timers are available on the 301, and I find them rather useful (2 permanent timers I have are the AM and Evening News, as well as Enterprise). I agree they could really use a DP401 - a 301 with UHF and TOSLINK, maybe more memory for the EPG.


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## Dave_W (Dec 17, 2002)

Yeah... I agree too that Dish Network should add a receiver model between the base unit and the 508, with a digital audio output and a UHF remote. That's what I was originally looking for when my old model 3000 gave up the ghost. There are quite a few DirectTV receivers available with that configuration. 

But now, after having the 508's PVR features at my fingertips, I'm really glad I was kinda "forced" to get the 508. It's almost a shame that people can't somehow be fully informed on how handy the PVR functions are. I was aware of the technology and thought it would be useful, but I wasn't really sold on it until I got it here in my own home.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Dish has a UHF upgrade kit available for only $49 (was $69 but they dropped the price). It even comes with a UHF remote.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2002)

I'm pretty happy with my 508 so far. The only reason I tried the 508 instead of a 301 was because I could rent the 508 for a one time fee of $50 with the DHP. Since I seldom used a VCR to record programs, I didn't expect to use the PVR functionality too much. I have been pleasantly surprised at how much use we are getting out of the PVR. We use this feature all the time now. Now I don't think I'll be without a PVR again.

After reading all the 50x horror stories, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop, but so far the 508 has proven a good value upgrade over the 301.


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## johnsmith22 (Jul 12, 2002)

Th 501 had its moment in the beginning but now is good and stable as is the 508. I have a 501 and a 301, the 501 is great, I think once anyone has a PVR they won't go back to non PVR TV.

Unfortunately the poor 501 because of its initial problems comes in for a great deal of un justified knocking, but believe me it is worth every penny of its cost.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

There were not only software issues but hardware issues with the 501 as well. I have not heard of as many problems with the 508 like there were with the 501, so there must have been a lot of improvements since.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2002)

I wonder how many of the original reports of 50x units coming DOA were actually caused by lousy installers? I recently took advantage of the $199 upgrade to a 508, and couldn't talk Dish out of sending an installer. I figured its a replacement, so its just a matter of disconnecting the old 4900 and connecting the 508, so how hard can it be?

The guy they sent out was a clown. He disconnected the old box and connected the 508, which showed a nice strong signal on the "Check Switch" screen. It then downloaded a program update, and displayed a message along the lines of "Updating internal programming, do not disconnect power or disturb unit while the Power light is blinking". After a minute, the screen goes to snow and the power light is still blinking. The installer announces that this is not normal, and immediately pulls the plug. This, of course, killed the unit. He then starts talking about how the unit must not be getting any signal from the sattelite, even though it showed a strong signal and downloaded the new programming.

Luckily, he had a second 508 on the truck, and I installed it myself...

-BearKlaw


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

If you really want something between a 301 and 508, I'd suggest getting a used/refurbished 4900 from an online retail outlet (such as dishdepot.com). Comes w/DD out and UHF remote for around $99.00.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

The issues with the 501's I know were not due to poor installation, it was the product, because I had went through 3 of them on the 4th one and when I got that one in which I had to call all around to get a new replacement, I sold it cheap to get rid of it.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *The issues with the 501's I know were not due to poor installation, it was the product. *


OK, that answers that question. Glad I waited two years to upgrade  Now that I've had a 508 for a few weeks, I'm really tempted to replace the second 4900 too.


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

Part of it is cost. Most people walking in probably never heard of a Dishplayer. 

The biggest reason to me is that they just don't understand what a PVR will do for them. They look at the cost and figure they just want to watch TV and not learn something new.. 

If they hear or read of problems, that is also a big issue, I don't know if all the problems were software, hardware or just cutting corners on the design that causes the issues of premature failure.

Pre-Downloading the firmware might help, but depending on how long a unit is on the shelf. it could be way out of date and have addtional programs from running on old code.

If a showroom happens to have a unit where the hard disk is noisy, that can be a distraction. It would be nice if these units had those IBM Fluid bearings if I recall the technology correctly, keeps things really quiet when the motor spins..


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## Dave_W (Dec 17, 2002)

normang - I think you summed up most of the replies to my original post here very well. I was among those who didn't really understand just how handy and convenient the PVR features really are, until I started playing with it here in my own home. 

As far as having to download the firmware... I don't see why that should be a factor. I think most PVR's are "professionally" installed due to Dish Net's pricing structure, and **assuming the installer is properly trained**, this should not be of concern to the consumer. But even if self-installed, my unit had a separate sheet taped to the receiver which clearly explains the process involved in the initial download of the firmware, program guide, etc.

As for hard drive noise... my unit is very quiet. If I listen closely, I can hear the heads "chattering" softly but it's not noticeable at all in normal usage.

Thanks again for all the replies.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Unfortunately, reading the DBS boards is not necessarily a good basis for making a purchase decision. Those with good machines, probably the majority, don't bother to post "I am happy with my receiver" messages. IMO, less than 10% have had serious problems, but we'll never really know.

If I had read the negative DBSF posts about the Dishplayer in 2000, BEFORE I bought two of them, I probably wouldn't have done so and would have missed out on the enjoyment my Dishplayers have given me for 2 1/2 years.

PVR = TV the way it was meant to be.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Even though there are problems that does not mean that the product is unusable. It is still capable of performing the tasks, just not all the time or is buggy. That makes it frustrating sometimes but most of the time enjoyable.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

I have both a SA TiVo (running a 4900) and a 508. While the 508 does have some annoying bugs, once those bugs are known it is easy to avoid those bugs. It isn't perfect, but for $199 (including reciever) and 60 hours recording time, it is still a nice deal. Would the best of both worlds be a DishTiVo, yes, but that won't happen so as long as I'm happy with dish and not ready to jump, I have my SA TiVo and 508 and am happy with both.


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## Dave_W (Dec 17, 2002)

Nick - Yeah, using internet message boards as the sole source for making any purchasing decision is not a good idea, for the reasons you stated. But I don't ignore them prior to a purchase either... they are a unique source of information that you can't find anywhere else. Reading through the posts here both before and after purchasing my 508 has been invaluable. 

I sure appreciate the "regulars" like you all who help us newbies.

Jacob & jcutler - I agree the 508 is a good deal despite some bugs and limitations, especially when compared to Tivo etc. Personally, I balk at the idea of paying $10/month to record the same programs that I can record freely on my VCR. I mean somebody, somewhere would be getting $120 from me every year... for what?


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Dave, Actually I find the TiVo money well spent (I went for the $199 lifetime). The money goes toward the stability and constant upgrades to the system SW as well as supporting the dialup capability. But when it came to buying a 2nd PVR, then thought of another $249 (raised the price) was a line in the sand I would not cross. But I gladly would pay $10/month (or the lifetime) the first time to help guarantee the the standards of the TiVo product. It's the 2nd and 3rd time around it becomes an issue.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Seeing the final cost of $250 plus the product price of $200 that is like $450 but to have 60 hours of record time which is close to the 721 and 508 and being able to record off air channels and record off of any receiver or cable or anything, then that in itself is a big advantage, along with product stability.

It is just up to the user to whether it is worth the extra money for product stability and for the extra features with the ability to record off air signals and the versatility of that. Also you can record by show title. I have thought about purchasing one of these myself. The only thing is if it would go bad after warranty then you are out of all of the money. The lifetime pvr functionality is not transferrable to another unit to my knowledge. You can get an extended warranty with Dish Network for $2 a month which is well worth it.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> * The only thing is if it would go bad after warranty then you are out of all of the money. The lifetime pvr functionality is not transferrable to another unit to my knowledge. You can get an extended warranty with Dish Network for $2 a month which is well worth it. *


As long as you get the unit repaired either thru extended warranty or thru TiVo you do not lose your lifetime subscription. If you buy a new one is when you lose the subscription. But even a non functioning unit with a lifetime sub would be worth it to someone as they could pay TiVo to repair the unit and there is a working unit with a lifetime sub.


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

How come do they not tie the lifetime subscription to the subscriber instead of the receiver? What if someone wanted a newer receiver that has more storage capability? Will one have to pay the fee over and over just because the customer wanted to upgrade?


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

Jacob S, Yes a 2nd Stand Alone TiVo= a 2nd fee, 3rd SA TiVO = 3rd fee, x TiVo = X fee. The DirectTiVos are tied to the person so you can have 6 tivos and pay only one fee (or if you have a high enough programming package pay nothing, but that is D*'s influence not TiVos) That is the Reason I went for a 508 as 2nd Dish accessable PVR. 

Now it is pretty easy to sell a lifetime subbed SA TiVo and get the total cost of subscription + some recoup of hardware. So if you wanted a new unit, not a total loss. SO even though I paid $199 for my lifetime sub, I can sell my SA TiVo for easily $350 ($249 current lifetime sub + $100 value of hardware) But of course I paid $399 for the hardware, and the newer/better units can be gotten for $199-$249 after rebate  

But to be honest if you want more capacity, you are better off just upgrading the hard drive yourself (relatively easy compared to the 508 or 721). Instead of buying new. Only thing I see about the new Series 2 is the USB ports (that don't do anything yet) so no rush for a new TiVo, only upgrade the hard drive if I wanted/needed???


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

There is only so much space available in the unit though for a bigger hard drive. Eventually you would not be able to upgrade anymore would you being that hard drives keep getting bigger? Or when they increase the storage do they not get bigger all of the time but instead fit more and more in the same space?

I suppose the best alternative is using a computer if there are issues with the tivo as well. It would be lots cheaper. A cheap pc just to use for that would cost just as much or cheaper or use the existing computer. One could make their own pvr unit with a pc or something and customize it.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

If your lifetime TIVO got hit by lightning and totally fried what happens?

Do they swap you out and let you keep the lifetime?

Can upgraded HD units be returned for extended warranty service?


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## bearklaw (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *There is only so much space available in the unit though for a bigger hard drive. Eventually you would not be able to upgrade anymore would you being that hard drives keep getting bigger? Or when they increase the storage do they not get bigger all of the time but instead fit more and more in the same space?*


Drive case size stays constant, just the capacity keeps increasing. (Actually, there are a few standard drive sizes, but that doesn't matter here.) Typically the manufactures add more platters and heads to drives and/or increases the density they can read/write with, to increase capacity in the same size package.

My current 60GB drive is the same size as an 80MB drive I bought in the 80s.

-BearKlaw


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bob Haller _
> *If your lifetime TIVO got hit by lightning and totally fried what happens?
> 
> Do they swap you out and let you keep the lifetime?
> ...


1 & 2) I assume that insurance would pay for the hardware and subscription cost if it got fried/stolen (assuming replacement cost and not current value cost with insurance) On the TiVo forums it is common that you can send anything back to tivo for repair and you are covered with the subscription. Most postings have been about broken drives or hardware like modem, they only charged $100 to get the machine replaced and not lose your subscription (make sure your homeowners insurance includes REPLACEMENT cost)

2) I believe the extended warranty would be violated by upgrading the HD.

The problem is right now I would be spending $100 for TiVo to fix the unit to keep the sub, but I could get a brand new machine with double the hard drive for $150 more hardware but the extra cost of $250 becomes the pain. But one thing that can be done is that you can sell the repaired TiVo (with Lifetime Sub) for probably $350 and break even for the $100 repair cost and the $250 new subscription on a new piece of hardware.

That Lifetime subscription throws most purchase and sell logic out the window.


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## Allamand (Dec 13, 2002)

"Lifetime" is for the Unit only, if it gets fried, your out of luck!

That is the only reason I don't have a Tivo, cause that is a joke!


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *There is only so much space available in the unit though for a bigger hard drive. Eventually you would not be able to upgrade anymore would you being that hard drives keep getting bigger? Or when they increase the storage do they not get bigger all of the time but instead fit more and more in the same space? *


Right now two 128GB drive would be the max you could put in the machines (I believe there is a HW or SW limitation of 128GB drives with 2 IDE conectors for 2 drives) And they show that as about 300 Hours of recording at Basic Level, 90 Hours of Best Quality (according to screen shot from http://www.weaknees.com/detail/tivo_sa_upgrades/philips_sony_replace_300.html ). I don't think that would be a limit for most people.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Allamand _
> *"Lifetime" is for the Unit only, if it gets fried, your out of luck!
> 
> That is the only reason I don't have a Tivo, cause that is a joke! *


No, If you get the unit repaired thru tivo (Sony or Philips), even if they replace it you are covered. If you throw it out or sell it, it does not transfter to you.

From TiVo web site...

*Conditions of use
A product lifetime subscription to the TiVo service covers the life of the TiVo Digital Video Recorder (DVR) you buy--not the life of the subscriber. The product lifetime subscription accompanies the product in case of ownership transfer. The subscription remains in effect if your DVR needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer warranty details). Because a product lifetime subscription is linked to a particular DVR, it cannot be transferred to any other DVR (unless the DVR is replaced due to a malfunction covered by the manufacturer's warranty). Each DVR purchased requires its own service subscription and activation.

Of course, hardware products don't last forever and their lifespan will vary among individual products. TiVo makes no representations or warranties as to the expected lifetime of the product aside from the manufacturer's warranty. *

Even after Warranty has expired, you can get your TiVo repaired (or replaced within Subscription allowance) but I believe it is $100 to send your out of warranty unit in. And I don't know what they won't fix (obviously Sledghammer to TiVo probably won't be covered In or Out of warranty.)


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

And if you upgrade your hard drive then it voids your warranty? Will they repair the unit if you upgraded the hard drive? If the hard drive goes bad then all you have to do is replace it, not the whole thing. Does anyone sell parts to them on the internet or the unit without the hard drive? What if the company goes out of business or will not repair them anymore in the future?

With Dish you can get that extended warranty and not have to pay that lifetime subscription but the hardware costs more. I think its still cheaper with Dish than with Tivo with a lifetime subscription but at least with Tivo you can put it to any receiver or cable or antenna.

This is why I say that one may just be better off using a computer, what we already have, or buy another one that is cheaper and put a big hard drive in it, or have an external one if you can get those, and then use the software on the computer. 

One could even use a laptop to take with the satellite receiver where you go or use the cable system or off air antenna wherever you are at and have the external hard drive to connect to their compute with a cd with the software on it. It would be a solution.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *And if you upgrade your hard drive then it voids your warranty? Will they repair the unit if you upgraded the hard drive? If the hard drive goes bad then all you have to do is replace it, not the whole thing. Does anyone sell parts to them on the internet or the unit without the hard drive? What if the company goes out of business or will not repair them anymore in the future?
> 
> With Dish you can get that extended warranty and not have to pay that lifetime subscription but the hardware costs more. I think its still cheaper with Dish than with Tivo with a lifetime subscription but at least with Tivo you can put it to any receiver or cable or antenna.
> ...


Well Life is a gamble, Sony and Philips made the hardware so I doubt they will go out of business, maybe stop repairing them but not go out of business. If TiVo goes under, someone could buy the facilities and charge their monthly fee and only maintain the guide. Dosen't mean that a bankrup TiVo means you have a paperweight. There is a whole Cottage Industry for after warranty parts for the TiVo. If only the hard drive died or the modem died (you can get ready to roll replacement parts here www.weeknees.com, and you can get a bigger drive while you are at it.

Yes you can get the inexpenisve Dish extended warranty, but you know you will probably have to take advantage of it, in that Dish is not known for using quality parts. Would you rather have a unit that has a long history of breakdowns or one the is not know for it. In the late 80s You could have bought a Yugo for $5000 or a Honda Civic for $10,000. How many Yugo owners were happy with their purchase vs Honda owners. There are more things to consider than what you are asking. But only you can determine which is more important.

*



This is why I say that one may just be better off using a computer, what we already have, or buy another one that is cheaper and put a big hard drive in it, or have an external one if you can get those, and then use the software on the computer.

Click to expand...

*Maybe in the future, but right now the Home Made PVR is for the tinkerer, the PVR has gone beyond that audience. HP (or is it sony?) made a jump foward with PVR in a PC, but it ain't a $500 PC that you get those features on...


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## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

You can buy the software for cheap though can't you? I thought I seen where you could get it for as cheap as $49.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jacob S _
> *You can buy the software for cheap though can't you? I thought I seen where you could get it for as cheap as $49. *


Yes the Sw is cheap, but it still requires a special video capture card and a remote control device (thats the part the I've never seen before, how many options are there, how well do they work, etc). So it is still in the hands of the Tinkerer. I don't know what the specs are to run optimally?

http://www.shopping.hp.com/cgi-bin/...pavilion/media_center&subcat1=rts&cat_level=1

I believe these are the only "Out of the Box" PC PVRs and they start at $1350 (without display). But within 1-2 years this identical hardware will only cost someone $500 and make a fine PVR. In another year that would easily be a $250 device. But sadly CPU and drive space never get that cheap and you would still end up with a faster CPU and bigger drive, doubt the price would ever get below $500 without having to find cheaper/slower/smaller/less expensive components.

There might be a niche market where AMD keeps their lowest end chips around a little longer and one drive vendor keeps making 80GB drives and then the price could get below $250 for an extended period of time.


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## DVDDAD (Dec 21, 2002)

Here's one product from ATI that uses a RF remote control to control you PC from another room even through walls. I don't use the PVR function on my PC, but I hear the remote works well.


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## gcutler (Mar 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DVDDAD _
> *Here's one product from ATI that uses a RF remote control to control you PC from another room even through walls. I don't use the PVR function on my PC, but I hear the remote works well. *


$50, thats not bad.

This Avermedia PVR cards look interesting, have to get the top of the line one AVER-TV-STEREO ($59.99 list price) to get Remote...
http://www.avermedia.com/products/tvtuner.shtml

But until these things are more widely used (let someone else be bleeding edge), I'd still rather stick with something more reputable. And then the issue of FREE guide. This all falls apart without access to the guides. What is to guarantee that these Guide providers don't start charging, I assume it has to match a certain format so you can't just go to any guide out there?

Here are the specs, so you are looking at a PIII-800 (probably 256MB Ram). So the cheapest machine you can buy new or a 1-2 year old used machine will work as well. SO it really seems to be based on how inexpensive you can get a machine. It does seem that it would still cost at least $200 for an used machine. A DTiVo or UTV or 50x still seems to be a better deal. Might give the SA TiVo a run for it's money but it better work as well as a SA TiVo...

Pentium III 450, 128MB RAM or better 
PCI 2.1 Compatible Slot 
Real-Time Video Capture at 320 x 240 (MPEG-I)
- Pentium III 450MHz or better 
Real-Time Video Capture at 720 x 480 (MPEG-II) 
- Pentium III 800MHz or better 
Sound Card (Full Duplex for Time-Shift™ and I-Record™)** 
For Internet Video Phone Applications
- Camcorder or Desktop Camera
- Microphone 
- 28.8Kbps or Faster Modem 
Windows® 95/98/98SE/2000/ME/XP (Time shift, I-Record™ and Record in MPEG2 video format are only available with the WDM driver under Windows 98SE/2000/ME) 
PCI VGA Card or better with DirectX 6.0 or Higher Support

**Time Shift™ and I-Record™ are only available with the WDM driver under Windows 98SE/2000/ME/XP


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