# Recording back to back programs



## sjm992 (Jan 14, 2004)

My 622 recently lost the ability to set up timers for back to back programs - I have to choose one or the other unless I adjust the start and finish times. Any idea how I can get this feature back? I'm in single user mode.
Stuart


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## TulsaOK (Feb 24, 2004)

sjm992 said:


> My 622 recently lost the ability to set up timers for back to back programs - I have to choose one or the other unless I adjust the start and finish times. Any idea how I can get this feature back? I'm in single user mode.
> Stuart


Can you explain further? What is your Start Time and End Time settings? You may need to adjust that if you're still using the default.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

TulsaOK said:


> Can you explain further? What is your Start Time and End Time settings? You may need to adjust that if you're still using the default.


However, in *Single Mode* as long as another event is not also being recorded, if there is a conflict in Start/End times the second tuner should record one of the back to back events.


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## Hunter Green (May 8, 2006)

Removing the "padding" time on the timers should fix it. This didn't used to be necessary, but there was a backslide in a recent software release that crippled things.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Can we get more details on this?


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

yeah this is kind of annoying, SW should be smart enough to know if back to back on the same channel then allow it to record. Especially if you are using the ATSC tuner since there is only 1.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Hunter Green said:


> Removing the "padding" time on the timers should fix it. This didn't used to be necessary, but there was a backslide in a recent software release that crippled things.


Its still not necessary with the default pads. Of course for some shows I have changed the Pads (ABC, for example, has a tendency to start and add some shows not on the hour. Occassionally when I show I have selected moves a show to be right after one of the shows that I changed the pad, I see the problems that the OP mentioned. If you have the time it pays each day to check your "schedule" to see if any shows you want are being shown as skipped, and make the necessary adjustments.


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## sjm992 (Jan 14, 2004)

Hunter Green said:


> Removing the "padding" time on the timers should fix it. This didn't used to be necessary, but there was a backslide in a recent software release that crippled things.


That fixed it! I took a couple of minutes out of the padding, thanks for your help. All the same, it used to know that they were back to back and just record them.


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## Hunter Green (May 8, 2006)

tnsprin said:


> Its still not necessary with the default pads.


It has been for me, and apparently others. If you haven't run into that yet, I hope you never do! (Are you on 5.1x yet?)


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## garyhesq (Nov 5, 2004)

This problem has become an issue for me with L6.16 on my 722. Has anyone been experiencing this with the latest software release?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Can you provide more steps. I have a lot of timers that are set back to back and I am not having the issue. Can you provide steps where you see this? Need more details.


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## garyhesq (Nov 5, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> Can you provide more steps. I have a lot of timers that are set back to back and I am not having the issue. Can you provide steps where you see this? Need more details.


Sure, Monday nights I record CBS for all the sitcoms through the evening all in a row. Plus I have two other shows set to record at different times on other channels. One at 8 and another at 9. Since the new software, the CBS shows I had set to record came up with X's except the first show of the evening. There was a conflict with the rest of the shows on CBS with each other and the other 2 shows on the different channels. I had to edit the start and finish time on the rest of the CBS shows so they did not start early or end late. It should have just used one tuner to record the whole series and the other tuner to record the other stations set at 8 and 9. What it was trying to do was switch between tuner 1 and 2 as the CBS shows changed. I had never had that problem before.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

What was your padding on your Timers? What is set to the default of 3 minutes or some other value?


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## garyhesq (Nov 5, 2004)

One minute before and 5 minutes late. I tried changing the end time to one minute and it didn't fix it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Try a test and change it to 1 and 3 I believe. That is the defaults and see if that helps. Something is odd here. My understanding is that if you leave it at the defaults then it will do the back to back properly. If you change the padding it won't. 

Someone correct me if I am wrong. Is this how it worked pre 6.16?


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## kucharsk (Sep 20, 2006)

Jeff_DML said:


> yeah this is kind of annoying, SW should be smart enough to know if back to back on the same channel then allow it to record. Especially if you are using the ATSC tuner since there is only 1.


No DVR I've ever seen or used - 622/722, TiVo, Elgato EyeTV software - knows that two back-to-back programs can be recorded on the same tuner; I suspect because it's because there's no way for the software to duplicate recordings.

For example, say _House_ is set to record on Fox from 7:58 to 9:02, and _24_ is set to record from 8:58 to 10:02.

There's no way for the DVR to duplicate the overlap so that 8:58 to 9:02 appears in both recordings without using two tuners to do it.


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## garyhesq (Nov 5, 2004)

I tried what Ron suggested and it worked. As soon as I tried to just add padding the timer failed. I deleted them and recreated with 1 minute before and 3 after and all is well. I'm not sure how the originals got set to record 5 min after but it's not set that way now and all is well.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

kucharsk said:


> No DVR I've ever seen or used - 622/722, TiVo, Elgato EyeTV software - knows that two back-to-back programs can be recorded on the same tuner; I suspect because it's because there's no way for the software to duplicate recordings.
> 
> For example, say _House_ is set to record on Fox from 7:58 to 9:02, and _24_ is set to record from 8:58 to 10:02.
> 
> There's no way for the DVR to duplicate the overlap so that 8:58 to 9:02 appears in both recordings without using two tuners to do it.


FWIW, the DirecTV boxes do exactly what you describe above by default, in case you want to make a new feature request.

They schedule consecutive recordings on the same channel on the same tuner and auto-pad the first recording's end-time by 90 seconds and the second recording's start-time by 30 seconds.

You can also increase the extent of the overlap by padding manually.

/steve


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

The receiver specifically checks for the 1/3 pad and then knows it can use the same tuner for two recordings. If you change the default pad to something other than 1/3 it fails the test and different tuners are required. At least that's the way it has always worked in the past.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

DirecTV user here, curious how the Dish default 1/3 padding works. I assume that padding is conditional? I.e., only if it won't cause a conflict with a recording in the previous or next time slot?

And if so, is it adaptive? Will it automatically drop down to 1/1 or 1/2, if that's all that's needed to avoid a conflict?

TIA for the explanation. /steve


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## garyhesq (Nov 5, 2004)

No adaption takes place. It looks at the priorities and drops the timer for the lowest priority program.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

garyhesq said:


> No adaption takes place. It looks at the priorities and drops the timer for the lowest priority program.


 Thx. So I would imagine that folks without OTA capability and the option of a third tuner are probably not using (or overriding) the default 1/3 pads during primetime? /steve


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

kucharsk said:


> No DVR I've ever seen or used - 622/722, TiVo, Elgato EyeTV software - knows that two back-to-back programs can be recorded on the same tuner; I suspect because it's because there's no way for the software to duplicate recordings.
> 
> For example, say _House_ is set to record on Fox from 7:58 to 9:02, and _24_ is set to record from 8:58 to 10:02.
> 
> There's no way for the DVR to duplicate the overlap so that 8:58 to 9:02 appears in both recordings without using two tuners to do it.


back to back when overlapped on the same tuner is working for me nowadays on my 722 so they changed something


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Most likely Jeff it is the difference between using default padding and not. Just a guess though.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Steve said:


> Thx. So I would imagine that folks without OTA capability and the option of a third tuner are probably not using (or overriding) the default 1/3 pads during primetime? /steve


Actually I have OTA and I use the default padding in 99% of the cases. Perhaps my viewing use cases are different than others.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> Actually I have OTA and I use the default padding in 99% of the cases. Perhaps my viewing use cases are different than others.


No, that's my point... sorry if I was unclear.  You're able to use the default padding because having the 3d tuner creates fewer conflicts. /steve


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Steve said:


> DirecTV user here, curious how the Dish default 1/3 padding works. I assume that padding is conditional? I.e., only if it won't cause a conflict with a recording in the previous or next time slot?
> 
> And if so, is it adaptive? Will it automatically drop down to 1/1 or 1/2, if that's all that's needed to avoid a conflict?
> 
> TIA for the explanation. /steve


Actually I have not played around enough to figure this. I was under the impression if you do back to back timers that the overlap is included in both programs but I could be wrong. I set up a lost timer on my 612 this way tonight to see if I can answer that question or perhaps someone already knows.

I am not sure what happens if there is not a conflict. Good questions. I am going to have to play with it to see what is the behavior. I actually never pay that much attention because for me it seems to do the right thing in 99% of the time.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Steve said:


> No, that's my point... sorry if I was unclear.  You're able to use the default padding because having the 3d tuner creates fewer conflicts. /steve


Might not be unclear here myself.  Happens a lot.  My point is that by using the default padding it does a better job at managing the resources and that is why I do it. The 3rd tuner actually would be a stronger argument to not use the default padding as you have a third tuner to schedule programs on.

Basically the recommendation I give to help minimize resource contention.

1) Keep the default padding when possible. 
2) If you have OTA, Use your OTA tuner for your top tier shows and use the Sat Tuners for everything else. 
3) Try to keep your OTA tuner usage to one show during prime time.

Sure you don't have to follow these rules but it does help minimize lost shows because of resource contention.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> The 3rd tuner actually would be a stronger argument to not use the default padding as you have a third tuner to schedule programs on.


Actually, that depends on how padding works. If Dish padding is "hard", as suggested by *garyhesq *above, then the there is the potential for creating more conflicts and therefore a greater need for a third tuner to avoid them, if you know what I mean. /steve


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I think I know what you are talking about. 

Use Case (All using default padding)
8pm-9pm - Program #1 on Channel 004-00
9pm-10pm - Program #2 on Channel 004-00
9:30pm - Program #3 on Channel 005-00
10pm - Program #4 on CHannel 007-00

Question would be does Program #2 move over to Tuner #1. I also have a question if program #2 would trim the padding to allow Program #4 to record. Not sure, but something I will give a try tonight if i get the chance and report back. That will answer the behavior question.. Priority does not come into place in this use case. Priority is only used when two shows fire at the same time. If not, it is first come first serve.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

kucharsk said:


> No DVR I've ever seen or used - 622/722, TiVo, Elgato EyeTV software - knows that two back-to-back programs can be recorded on the same tuner; I suspect because it's because there's no way for the software to duplicate recordings.
> 
> For example, say _House_ is set to record on Fox from 7:58 to 9:02, and _24_ is set to record from 8:58 to 10:02.
> 
> There's no way for the DVR to duplicate the overlap so that 8:58 to 9:02 appears in both recordings without using two tuners to do it.


I regularly record ABC's Thursday prime time one show at a time on my single OTA tuner without fuss. Obviously the padding isn't there, but I don't have to do any special maintenance or tweaking of padding to make it happen.

IIRC, the DIRECTV HR2x series can lay down the end padding of one show and the front padding of the next with a single tuner; a very nifty feature for ABC watchers.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> ...
> 3) Try to keep your OTA tuner usage to one show during prime time.
> 
> ...


I'm always using the OTA tuner for back-to-back recordings for the three hours on prime time and never have problems. Of course, I always do manual timers as well without changing the default padding.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

lujan said:


> I'm always using the OTA tuner for back-to-back recordings for the three hours on prime time and never have problems. Of course, I always do manual timers as well without changing the default padding.


Didn't say you can't do it.  You can definitely can do it. I just try to minimize the use of my OTA to give every possibility that myTop shows don't get missed because a show gets moved in the schedule causing an over lap. Also helps in terms of Disk usage.

Example.

9pm-10pm - Program #1 (007-00) <-- Program #1 is Priority #1
10pm-11pm - Program #2 (004-00) <-- Program is Priority #20

Program #2 than moves to 8:30pm resulting in Program #1 being skipped.

Want to avoid those. Yes there is still a possibility of a show moving nights resulting in the same use case, but the more likely scenario is shows being extended and by keeping the OTA delegated to light use these conflicts can be minimized.

Like I said. It is part of my tuner management strategy and I offered it up as a suggestion.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

From what I have seen, the 622 will always record back to back programs that were set with default padding, but it does not pad between the shows.

So if you record two consecutive shows on the same OTA channel, one at 8:00 and the other at 9:00, then the length of the first show will be 1:01 and the length of the second show will be 1:03. If you were to only record one, it would be length 1:04.

Show #1 records from 7:59-9:00
Show #2 records from 9:00-10:03

So if show #1 cuts off the ending, then the ending appears at the beginning of show #2.

This doesn't work if the back-to-back programs are NOT on the same channel.

This works the same way for sat tuner timers. For example, when I recorded four consecutive episodes of Lost on Monday nights on SciFi, the first would be 1:01 length, then the middle two 1:00, and the last one 1:03. It would routinely chop off the ending of the earlier show, and I'd pick it up on the next one.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

Mr.72 said:


> From what I have seen, the 622 will always record back to back programs that were set with default padding, but it does not pad between the shows.
> 
> So if you record two consecutive shows on the same OTA channel, one at 8:00 and the other at 9:00, then the length of the first show will be 1:01 and the length of the second show will be 1:03. If you were to only record one, it would be length 1:04.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm aware of this a have gotten used to losing a few seconds from one of the shows.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Mr.72 said:


> From what I have seen, the 622 will always record back to back programs that were set with default padding, but it does not pad between the shows.
> 
> So if you record two consecutive shows on the same OTA channel, one at 8:00 and the other at 9:00, then the length of the first show will be 1:01 and the length of the second show will be 1:03. If you were to only record one, it would be length 1:04.
> 
> ...


FWIW, DirecTV defaults to 30 seconds/90 seconds padding "conditionally", in case you want to petition Dish to do something similar.

In the example above, if both shows are on the same channel, DirecTV would record each for 1:02, but only tie-up a single tuner from 7:59:30-10:01:30.

Unlike the VIP's, the DirecTV DVR's can only record two tuners simultaneously. 

By "conditional" AUTOPADDING, I mean if tuner #1 is scheduled to record ABC from 8-9 and NBC from 9-10, and tuner #2 is scheduled to record CBS from 8-9 and TNT from 9-10, both 8PM shows would record pre-padded by 30 seconds, but not post-padded (1:00:30). And both 9PM shows would be post-padded by 90 seconds, but not pre-padded (1:01:30).

/steve


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

Ron Barry said:


> Most likely Jeff it is the difference between using default padding and not. Just a guess though.


I know i have padding and changed it at one time. One thing I have only noticed it on the ATSC tuner so not sure if it also does it on the satellite ones.

Edit: also it did not work for awhile and suddenly started working, I assume something changed in a recent firmware update


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Ok I did a bit more playing around. Here is what I found. 

Duplicate determination appears to occur before Priority and if you have a timer set for OTA and Dish HD for the same program the duplicate is determined by what timer you create first. So if you want to employ a system where it records OTA first and if not falls back to Sat, set the OTA timer first with your Dish HD second. Priority does not come into effect here since Duplicate checking appears to happen first. Priority only appears to occur if two different shows. 

Ofcourse, in the case that the show does not have all the show information it will default to recording and therefore priority will come into play. 

I have not fully tested this out but with the testing I have done so far that appears to be how it works and how one can make OTA take a precedent over a back up Dish HD timer. 

Would be great if others can firm up this behavior. This thread definitely is going to be added to the tips and tricks. Lots of great info here.


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

Nice that you found out duplicate checking occurs first, Ron. So if you have two recordings set for one program it will set the second one as skipped because of duplicate and then check the priorities. Then if the recording that was selected from the duplicates is skipped by priority, you have the situation where the skipped for duplicate event could actually have been scheduled and recorded. But because it was defined second, and the first one had a lower priority (high number) both are skipped. I once wrote a mainframe computer scheduling system and I think that was easier than this scheduling headache.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Good Use case ChuckA. 

What I checked was this. 

Program #1 on OTA Set to Priority #1 
Program #2 on DishHD Set to Priority #2
Program #3 on DishHD Set to Priority #3
Program #4 on OTA set to Priority #4

Program #1 and #2 was the same show. Programs #3 and #4 was the same show.

When I Moved Program #4's priority to the top, Program #1 showed as skipped and program #2 showed as recorded. (Expected behavior)

So I think the answer to the question is that #2 will record as expected though I never actually let the timers fire. 

The problem I see happening if you want OTA to record and you have already set up a Dish Sat Timer you can't get this to happen without removing the Dish HD Sat timer first and then adding the the OTA first followed by the DIsh HD Sat timer. 

This use case has always bothered me because I never took the time to see how things worked. Did it this morning and I think I understand the behavior now better.


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## JimD (Apr 8, 2005)

I have always removed the standard padding because we often find ourselves in the situation where a 2-hour program is recording on SAT tuner 2 while two back-to-back one-hour programs are recording on separate channels on SAT tuner 1. 

I think I recall that with standard padding that when you attempt to setup the second program to be recorded by SAT tuner 1 it reports a conflict rather than adjusting the padding.

Is my recollection correct, or will it actually work and I should adjust the padding back to standard?

I guess to simplify, my question is "Will the standard padding auto-adjust to permit back-to-back recordings by the same tuner on different channels?"


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

I believe if you go back to the standard 1/3 pad everything will work the way you expect it should. Generally, you run into more problems by altering the default pad.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I just did a simple test where I set up 3 1/2 hour timers with default padding on seperate channels. Two fire at 3pm and one at 3:30. Under these conditions all three timers did fire so as long as you use default padding it appears it will handle the padding conflicts. 

Use Case
3pm - 3:30pm Program #1 6397
3pm - 3:30pm Program #2 6398
3pm - 3:30pm Program #3 6399

Under these conditions all three timers fire. When you think about it. When someone extends the timer they want the those extra minutes and consider them important. When they don't, the receiver appears to take the logic if if I can record them I will if not available I will not pad.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> I just did a simple test where I set up 3 1/2 hour timers with default padding on seperate channels. Two fire at 3pm and one at 3:30. Under these conditions all three timers did fire so as long as you use default padding it appears it will handle the padding conflicts.
> 
> Use Case
> 3pm - 3:30pm Program #1 6397
> ...


So help me understand how Dish does it. Let's just say there's only one tuner we can record on, for now.

Case #1 (one tuner only)

8pm-9pm ABC
9pm-10pm CBS
10pm-11pm NBC

On DirecTV, all 3 will record. Default "autopadding" is 30/90 (seconds). So first recording will record 1:00:30, second recording 1:00, third recording 1:01:30

Case #2 (one tuner only)

8pm-9pm ABC
10pm-11pm CBS

Both record for 1:02:00. Full padding on each one.

Case #3 (one tuner only)

8pm-9pm ABC
9pm-10pm ABC
10pm-11pm CBS

First recording 1:02 (end padding overlaps with start of second recording on same tuner); second recording 1:00:30 (start padding overlaps with end of first recording, no end-pad). Third recording records for 1:01:30 (no pre-pad).

How would the VIP handle those three cases, if there was only one tuner? TIA. /steve


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Please note that on Dish receivers the default padding for most shows is 1 minute early and 3 minutes late. But for sports the after padding is 60 minutes. With the 3 minute pad there should be no problem with back to back recordings. But with the 60 minutes pad back to back recordings will report conflicts.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

tnsprin said:


> Please note that on Dish receivers the default padding for most shows is 1 minute early and 3 minutes late. But for sports the after padding is 60 minutes. With the 3 minute pad there should be no problem with back to back recordings. But with the 60 minutes pad back to back recordings will report conflicts.


Gotcha. Let's leave sports out for now, but kudos to Dish for thinking of that! Great idea to pad games longer, if possible. Sounds like it may be "hard" padding tho, in which case could be problematic.

In my post above, though, substituting 1/3 padding for DirecTV's .5/1.5 autopadding, I'm interested in learning how the VIP would handle the above 3 cases in a situation where only one tuner was available for recording. TIA. /steve


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## ZBoomer (Feb 21, 2008)

Another tidbit about sports; if you set a timer before the program begins, it adds 60 minutes padding (but you can remove before finishing the timer if you want), but if you start recording a sports event while it's in progress, it does NOT add time.

An important thing to remember. You have to add time manually in this case.


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## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Steve said:


> So help me understand how Dish does it. Let's just say there's only one tuner we can record on, for now.
> 
> Case #1 (one tuner only)
> 
> ...


I *think* that a 622 will SKIP the middle program.



> Case #2 (one tuner only)
> 
> 8pm-9pm ABC
> 10pm-11pm CBS


Same thing for 622, both will record with full padding.



> Case #3 (one tuner only)
> 
> 8pm-9pm ABC
> 9pm-10pm ABC
> 10pm-11pm CBS


622 will record the first two shows and skip the third. It will not pad between the first two shows. This is my experience and I hope someone can verify it.

I don't think a 622 will make a channel change while auto-adjusting the padding. I think it just changes the padding when it is recording consecutive shows ON THE SAME CHANNEL. I hope someone else will verify this.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I will have to verify it Mr. 72, but I believe this is what happens. 

Case #1 - Show #1: Recorded with no backend padding. 
- Show #2: Recorded with no Front/backend padding
- Show #3: Recorded with no Frontpadding. 

Case #2 - Records both with padding. 

Case #3 - Show #1 - No backend padding. 
Show #2 - No Front/backend padding
Show #3 - Frontend padding.

This is with padding set to the defaults 1/3. If you change the defaults the outcome will be different.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> I will have to verify it Mr. 72, but I believe this is what happens.
> 
> Case #1 - Show #1: Recorded with no backend padding.
> - Show #2: Recorded with no Front/backend padding
> ...


Thanks, guys. Ron's results are how I would expect it to work, i.e. the 1/3 padding is conditional, so it won't cause conflicts.

Ron, Did you mean to say Case 3, Show 3 will have backend padding (and no frontend padding)? /steve


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Yep... Little cut and past mistake. I will try and verify my thoughts hopefully tonight if I can.


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## ZBoomer (Feb 21, 2008)

My experience with both my 622 and 722 is the DVR will discard the small padding if it needs the tuner to record a back-to-back program, period, even if on another channel.

If I have a show with 3-minutes padding recording 7-8pm, with two shows set to record at 8pm, it discards the padding on the first one, and starts the two tuners on time at 8.

Both my DVR's work this way.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

ZBoomer said:


> My experience with both my 622 and 722 is the DVR will discard the small padding if it needs the tuner to record a back-to-back program, period, even if on another channel.
> 
> If I have a show with 3-minutes padding recording 7-8pm, with two shows set to record at 8pm, it discards the padding on the first one, and starts the two tuners on time at 8.
> 
> Both my DVR's work this way.


So it sounds like Dish default 1/3 padding is "soft", meaning it won't cause a conflict, but if you alter the padding it becomes "hard"?

If so, what if you're trying to watch live TV on a non-recording channel during one of the "soft" pads? Does the padding give way to live TV as well? TIA.

/steve


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