# The Computer Industry Gets Rid of Lead



## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

From X-bit labs - Hardware news:

*The Computer Industry Gets Rid of Lead.*


> While there is more than half of a year to go till the European Union (EU) imposes ban on electronic components that contain instances like lead, mercury and cadmium, some computer makers insist that the hardware supplied to them was already free of hazardous materials. Even though the aim of the restriction is to sace human's health, the regulation adds complex to the computer business.


FULL ARTICLE HERE


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

One of the big steps forward, that the article doesn't mention, is the switch away from CRTs to flat panel monitors. CRTs all contain at least 5 pounds of lead if I remember correctly, and getting rid of them when they wear out has gotten to be a pain, not to mention expensive. In discussing flat panels in this forum we have discussed the possible energy savings, but the value of not having the lead to dispose of may be even more beneficial. 

Nothing more here. Lets try dealing with the topic, I'm sorry I made a suggestion.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Nonsense, Bogy- While it is true that heavy metals are a serious cause of brain damage with cumulative exposure, the ignorant reactionary response in this case is just full of flaws. Washing your hands after handling circuit boards is a ridiculous false sense of protection but if it makes you feel better, by all means wash your hands. :ROFL: I see it as a "duck and Cover" reaction to a direct hit from a Nuke!. We laugh at that notion today but in its time everyone took it serious and I laugh at the notion that a proximity exposure to heavy metals poisoning from electronic circuits is cause for serious concern now. The only people who are indeed in jeopardy of HM poisoning would be assembly and repair techs who sniff and breathe the flux /lead /tin smoke off of soldering on a daily basis. But, if you were to insert a card into a PCI slot in your computer you should not have to worry that in 2 months you will be brain dead. You probably get worse exposure to lead if you walked into an old building down town that has lead based paint on the walls. And if you're into worrying about stuff like this, how about starting a scare that the water you washed your hands with should be distilled bottled water because the tap water from the faucet has a small amount of lead and tin salts from the lead pipes, copper pipe solder joints etc. I submit that the levels of lead exposure from washing your hands after handling a circuit board is probably a hundred fold higher from the tap water than had you not washed at all. This doesn't mean that you should stop washing from tap water, it just means that your real exposure to lead contamination is much higher from washing your hands than handling a PC board. BUT, that lead exposure from washing is so small it isn't worth the concern either. Drinking the tap water may be a real cause for concern, especially in small children, less so in adults but this is observed over a life time, not in a short time span. Drinking tap water has other issues as well and therefore a good water treatment process for your home is a worthwhile investment, especially if you have city water or well water and live near a farm that uses pesticides. However this is a good topic for another thread. 

If you really must be a bubble boy, you could expect to add 10 years to your life by sequestering your exposure to heavy metals, assuming you lived long enough to tell the difference. That could be 150 to 250 years before normal HM exposure could make a difference. Obviously, as stated before people with unusual occupational exposure build up the levels to result in a problem much sooner.


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

So if I live to be 250 years old, I will live 10 years older?  :sure:
Don, go ahead and lick your boards, suck on them and chew on a chunk of solder, I don't care. It was just a friendly word of caution. Rich people used to eat from lead/pewter plates and drink from lead/pewter cups. Now we know that the common peasants were better off eating and drinking from wooden plates and cups, maggots and all, because they had less lead poinsoning. If you don't want to wash your hands, don't. I wash my hands after doing many things.


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## Milk_tec (Dec 5, 2005)

Bogy said:


> I wash my hands after doing many things.


<<----------Does that comment have anything to do with my avatar?:scratchin


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

Not as far as I am concerned. What you do with your avartars is your business.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I'd worry more about cutting my tongue on circuit board sharp edges than the accumulation of lead poisoning. 

I didn't figure you as one of those obsessive cumpulsive disorder types that does the hand washing thing after touching stuff. With all that hand washing, I'd say maybe you do have a higher lead poisoning content than most people. Better go have your blood test Monday morning. You may be well advised to carry distilled water around with you from now on since you are so worried about the lead in your system. OR is it that you are just concerned about where the lead came from and not so much about your accumulative levels? 

Ya know, the amazing thing is how little lead content I have accumulated. My background of working 23 years in the chemical induastry, 7 years of which I worked with TEPb and Pb2 O3 in quantity as a process engineer. I took normal, not obsessive percautions but did suffer some extreme exposures a couple of times. Times that required me to shower down and dispose of all my clothes. Blood tests considered my Pb levels "safe" I just stop worring about it, gained the knowledge of toxicity and respected it. I guess its why I find people who are obsessive compulsive about these things rather silly especially when they expose themselves in otherways and don't even understand what they have done by comparison.


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## n8dagr8 (Aug 14, 2004)

I'm pretty sure you get more lead in your system being within 100 miles of a NASCAR race than you would eating a PCB. 

No one (very few people) seems to have a problem with NASCAR using Pb(CH2CH3)4, especially Thomas Midgely, who also brought us many other wonderful chemical (I'm looking at you CFCs)


...but anyway, this is a good thing - getting the lead out......ah, reminds me of one of the many good things I have found in LA. One of the radio stations does the "get the lead out" block. Nothing but L.Z. songs for at least 30 minutes.


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> I didn't figure you as one of those obsessive cumpulsive disorder types that does the hand washing thing after touching stuff.


Don, think about what I do for a living. I visit a lot of sick people. Remember the thread discussing the transmission of infections between patients in hospitals? I wash my hands between rooms in the hospital, and if possible between visits in the rest homes. (15 residents from my church in the local rest home.) That is an example of what I meant. If that makes me obsessive compulsive, tough. Forget the warning, its gone. How about taking the lead out of computers and monitors. Do you see this as a good thing, or a waste of time? Perhaps you would like to see increased lead content in the things we use.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

When you visit the biohazardous areas, yes indeed, wash often and use antiseptic soap or it is a waste of time and false sense of security. I used to make a Bacteriostat designed soap for just the reason you stated. We sold it the the Military back then. I apologize as I thought you were suggesting washing your hands everytime you pick up a circuit board, to rinse off lead. My reading comprehension must be failing.

Anyway, I have no problem in finding substitute ways to deal with these chronic toxic metals. That is definitly a good thing. e.g. when lead was removed from paint mfg. by law, we discovered that paint made today w/o lead fails in stability and protection of the wood and structures it was used for. However, it was probably decided that paint with lead and gasoline with lead was a leading cause for lead poisoning. Keep in mind that the chemical makeup of these lead componuds are easily absorbed into the body while lead solder is most detrimental when it is heated and used in construction of electronic devices, not after it is in place and at room temperature. As I said, I felt the real cause for concern are those who work in soldering day in and out over years in that career. Occasional handling of electronics is not of any concern. 
But, if a replacement can happen without causing severe repercussions, then by all means removal is a good thing. We were successful with leaded gasoline, not so successful yet in Paint manufactureing but maybe electronics will have better success. Time will tell. Recall the saccharin scare and the Freon scare. Their ban was more "make me feel like I'm doing something good" than actually what it accomplished for the environment and health but the cost???? The fiscal impact of the Freon ban was just down right obscene. 

BTW- I too wash my hands with a more present concious effort when I travel than around the house. I believe it helps in avoiding colds. I get one case of a cold about one in 3 years. I've also heard from some experienced travelers who are using Neosporin ointment around their nose while flying. I may try that this year on my next trip to CES. I admit to being OCD when going to Trade shows. I back off and prefer the Eastern custom of a bow than a western handshake. 

OK I've diverged with you in this thread. No fear of lead but definite precautions when it comes to Biohazardous exposure. In that we agree!


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## KenIdaho (Dec 4, 2002)

I work for an electronics manufactuer. You will see lead free here soon. One of the concerns is the amout of PCB that are thrown away a year and also the processing of the boards to start with.

Lead free has some reliblity issues. The military doesn't want it


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## mntmst (Nov 10, 2003)

KenIdaho said:


> I work for an electronics manufactuer. You will see lead free here soon. One of the concerns is the amout of PCB that are thrown away a year and also the processing of the boards to start with.
> 
> Lead free has some reliblity issues. The military doesn't want it


One of the problems with "getting the lead out" is the use of high tin alloys in the solder replacements. This is why the military doesn't want it. http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

I am in charge of my companies RoHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances) program for the North American operations. Lead-Free is already here, just not a USA nation-wide mandate. Europe requires all products to be RoHS complaint on the store shelves by July of 2006. Asia will have the requirement in 2006 as well. Industry leaders such as NEMA, IPC, INEMI, JEDEC, and EIA are all predicting the USA to impose a legislative mandate in 2007.

Sure Tin wiskering has been a past soldering issue. But the board finishes have been much improved (We are using Silver Immersion) and the alloys themselves such as SAC305 has improved the wetting action very much. BTW Fujitsu has been making lead-free laptops in Japan since like 98. 

California is the only place in the USA with any form of Lead-Free legislation. Currently they only impose the restriction on computer monitors and CRTs. I believe that was California Senate Bills 20 through 60. And right now they only take that control to the level of impact fee assessment. This is the reason many computer monitor manufacturers are already shipping lead-free monitors. My companies LCD computer monitors have been lead-free for over a year, and actually we saw the opposite trend where as our field return rates dropped as the quality of the solder joints themselves is improved over a standard eutectic Sn63/Pb37 solder. Of course I say quality improvement post reflow, as it is much more difficult to control the actual soldering processes/profiles. But beyond that wiskering is a worry of the past, there's other concerns now, mostly of which are pricing related. I am concerned that this may raise prices to a price point consumers will not tolerate. The cost delta of SAC405 to 63/37 is 300% increase. PCB materials delta CEM1 to FR4 is 30% increase and so on. Component pricing has become negligible, but the remaining BOM (Bill of Material) cost increases will still impact margins.


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

Jason, do you see the cost issue to be related to a period of transition, or a permament increase? Do you think the increased cost of material will drop as it becomes the standard?


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Yes, I do see the material costs coming down as companies change their material demands. But once a company asks it's customers for a price increase, it is not very likely that they would anti up a reduction once the materials costs subside.

What I think could have the largest impact is the CRT and Plasma manufacturers. To my understanding Mercury is used in the tube evacuation processes, and Mercury is a Banned substance under the RoHS directive. This is what I believe is behind the recent cost trends of CRT and Plasma's. I do not believe that the reductions seen in recent months were necessarily volume/demand related. But I could be wrong. This would also explain why CRTs and Plasmas continue to decrease in price while LCD's remain static. Just an observation/opinion mind you.

And for the hardcore computer geeks that are freaking out after reading about this stuff, relax. RoHS provides a specific exemption for Network Storage Devices. I.E. from my interpretation the Servers and Raid Towers are exempt, but the Routers and Switches are not.


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## mntmst (Nov 10, 2003)

Jason Nipp said:


> I am in charge of my companies RoHS (Restriction of Hazardous Substances) program for the North American operations. Lead-Free is already here, just not a USA nation-wide mandate. Europe requires all products to be RoHS complaint on the store shelves by July of 2006. Asia will have the requirement in 2006 as well. Industry leaders such as NEMA, IPC, INEMI, JEDEC, and EIA are all predicting the USA to impose a legislative mandate in 2007.
> 
> Sure Tin wiskering has been a past soldering issue. But the board finishes have been much improved (We are using Silver Immersion) and the alloys themselves such as SAC305 has improved the wetting action very much. BTW Fujitsu has been making lead-free laptops in Japan since like 98.
> 
> California is the only place in the USA with any form of Lead-Free legislation. Currently they only impose the restriction on computer monitors and CRTs. I believe that was California Senate Bills 20 through 60. And right now they only take that control to the level of impact fee assessment. This is the reason many computer monitor manufacturers are already shipping lead-free monitors. My companies LCD computer monitors have been lead-free for over a year, and actually we saw the opposite trend where as our field return rates dropped as the quality of the solder joints themselves is improved over a standard eutectic Sn63/Pb37 solder. Of course I say quality improvement post reflow, as it is much more difficult to control the actual soldering processes/profiles. But beyond that wiskering is a worry of the past, there's other concerns now, mostly of which are pricing related. I am concerned that this may raise prices to a price point consumers will not tolerate. The cost delta of SAC405 to 63/37 is 300% increase. PCB materials delta CEM1 to FR4 is 30% increase and so on. Component pricing has become negligible, but the remaining BOM (Bill of Material) cost increases will still impact margins.


For consumer goods maybe but for mission/life critical the EU is starting to play it safe with recent exemptions.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Medical and Military applications have been included as an exemption since the pretty much the beginning. 

Also don't miss the "new" Cadmium directive.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

So we'd be replacing Lead / Tin with a Tin, Silver, Copper alloy (SAC405) In this Sn represents 95% Silver 4% Coper 1% ?? I believe. Adding high cost silver to the solder would reduce the cost of silver? Not sure I understand that reasoning but it seems that silver has always been considered a precious metal and as such is not only in less abundance but also a metal used in Jewelry, same with copper but Cu is more plentiful in nature. Not sure how adding these metals to electronics will affect the bottom line of the device, but I'd suspect that increasing health care costs and other labor issues and energy cost inflation this past year would dwarf the addition of Ag & Cu to electronics cost as discussed. Kind of like worrying over a firecracker when you have an RPG aimed at you!


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

Don, I did say SAC405 costs 300% more than the previous Alphametals Sn/Pb eutectic solder that my company switched from. My comments regarding materials costs subsiding was in relationship to total BOM costs. And while the SAC alloys do cost more than eutectic alloys, consumption is reduced in process.


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

Jason Nipp said:


> Yes, I do see the material costs coming down as companies change their material demands. But once a company asks it's customers for a price increase, it is not very likely that they would anti up a reduction once the materials costs subside.


I would think that long term it would be a matter of competition. Unless the companies available to provide the materials is very limited.


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> So we'd be replacing Lead / Tin with a Tin, Silver, Copper alloy (SAC405) In this Sn represents 95% Silver 4% Coper 1% ?? I believe. Adding high cost silver to the solder would reduce the cost of silver? Not sure I understand that reasoning but it seems that silver has always been considered a precious metal and as such is not only in less abundance but also a metal used in Jewelry, same with copper but Cu is more plentiful in nature. Not sure how adding these metals to electronics will affect the bottom line of the device, but I'd suspect that increasing health care costs and other labor issues and energy cost inflation this past year would dwarf the addition of Ag & Cu to electronics cost as discussed. Kind of like worrying over a firecracker when you have an RPG aimed at you!


Copper is used in some jewelry, but is hardly what you would really consider a precious metal. If it were precious you might want to start ripping the wires and pipes out of your walls. Silver is considered a precious metal, and I am wearing several pieces of silver jewelry right now, but I also have been using silver solder almost exclusively because it is so easy to work with for some time. If I understand the end of your post you agree that the amount of bottom line increase is negligible in comparison to electronics workers health care costs, etc.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

_"If it were precious you might want to start ripping the wires and pipes out of your walls. "_

Obviously you've never been in the slum sections of most cities where abandon buildings are common. Mopst will have the copper wire wipped out of the walls, Pipes too if they can be found. Even back in early 80's I recall looking at a warehouse to buy and it had been abandoned for 2 months and every bit of wire was stripped out of the walls. Too bad those people don't work as hard when they get a real job!

As for copper jewelry- I've seen lots of copper used in jewelry. Mostly women's belts and anything that doesn't lay next to the skin, although I do recall some bracelets with copper. Copper is a unique looking color metal so it is quite common in low cost jewelry.

I never saw lead being worn except by divers.  weight belts and commercial diver shoes for Mark 5 dress.

You are correct in understanding my belief that the bottom line of electronics will not be significantly impacted when the industry is dealing with much greater cost increases. And I did catch your comment about the 300%, Jason. I trust that is correct but as I said, considering the quantities used in a cost proportion basis, I can't see it being a significant part of a price increase of the product as are those other mfg costs industry is currently dealing with. Say a device costs $1000 to make. It uses $1.00 of a material. The cost jumps 300% but you use 2/3's as much. That would mean the cost is really $2 on that $1000 device. an increase of $1. If a part in that device costs $200 and it increases 10% due to transportation and insurance benefits increases. That alone is 20 times the impact on the device cost basis compared to the solder metal increases. All I'm trying to do is put things into perspective here. Recall when the move to get rid of Freon, the cost was $9 a 20Lb cylinder. The government to create an incentive to stop using it, taxed it to $120 for that same grade freon making it cheaper to get your auto AC's retrofitted to run the "environmentally friendly freon if that exists. Forcing people and industry to move to lead free may follow the freon tax model some day. Another big user of lead are car batteries. If the government taxes the heck out of lead then we may see nickel- Cadmium batteries for cars be cheaper. e.g. a car battery of lead acid is about $75 for a good one. That same quality in a NiCad could cost $500. But if the government taxed the lead battery $800 then we would see a freon incentive model for killing that use in industry.


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## Bogy (Mar 23, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> _"If it were precious you might want to start ripping the wires and pipes out of your walls. "_
> 
> Obviously you've never been in the slum sections of most cities where abandon buildings are common. Mopst will have the copper wire wipped out of the walls, Pipes too if they can be found. Even back in early 80's I recall looking at a warehouse to buy and it had been abandoned for 2 months and every bit of wire was stripped out of the walls. Too bad those people don't work as hard when they get a real job!


I am very aware that copper gets stripped out of vacant buildings. In fact, it also happens to homes being built. I have also known of copper gutters and even copper roofs being ripped off of occupied buildings. But I was talkinb about YOU ripping the PRECIOUS metal out of YOUR own walls. :lol: Copper has value, but it doesn't have that kind of value.


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