# First Look: DirecTV 21 tuner 3D2 SWM LNB



## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

This has been mentioned in other posts but thought some would be interested in this first look.

http://iamanedgecutter.com/docs/3D2LNB%20Edgecutter%20Review.pdf

This offers 21 usable tuners on the LNB. Good option to get rid of some SWM16s.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

dpeters11 said:


> This has been mentioned in other posts but thought some would be interested in this first look.
> 
> http://iamanedgecutter.com/docs/3D2LNB%20Edgecutter%20Review.pdf
> 
> This offers 21 usable tuners on the LNB. Good option to get rid of some SWM16s.


Thanks ...

Finally. ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

Well that will eliminate the required 8-turner count that SWiM16 owners got to do.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Still find it interesting that it is 21 tuners. I wonder if the reverse band LNB will be 22, to reduce future confusion, so people don't have to refer to "the old SWM 22 LNB" and "the new SWM 22 LNB with reverse band". Just "SWM 21 LNB" and "SWM 22 LNB". But who knows, maybe the reverse band one will remain 21 as well for some reason.

Also strange that they even bothered with this one with the reverse band LNB following so closely on its heels, unless this one costs more (which it could at least initially if it eliminates a lot of the analog RF components in the front end as I suspect it may) This 3D2 may have a very short life...


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

It is a 22 tuner LNB, but the 22nd tuner is for system use, not a receiver to use. I would expect any new reverse band LNB to be the same.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

carl6 said:


> It is a 22 tuner LNB, but the 22nd tuner is for system use, not a receiver to use. I would expect any new reverse band LNB to be the same.


Yeah, that's confirmed now, but since it's a switch from the ASWM and 1st gen. DSWM practice of only referring to the program tuner support in the naming. Thus the initial confusion of thinking it had 22 program tuner support instead of 21.

This combined with that it would seem 22 is the more logical as it places the upper frequencies of the SWiM spectum closer to the standard 2150 MHz upper bandwidth limit of all DIRECTV's HD receiver tuners.

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## mickat (Jul 8, 2007)

When can the rest of us get 3 Genies?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

mickat said:


> When can the rest of us get 3 Genies?


Likely never ...

DIRECTV engineering probably made a special exception for the author of the First Look here for the purposes of testing and evaluation of new firmware and equipment as member of the iamanedgecutter group.

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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

mickat said:


> When can the rest of us get 3 Genies?


From what I've read, the problem with multiple Genies has to do with clients (mini's or RVU TV's) not knowing which Genie they are supposed to be attached to. Apparently, there are no problems having multiple Genies in a non-client client environment. But, unless they fix the client problem, there is no way that DirecTV is going to allow people to have multiple Genies on their account. Can you imagine the nightmare that they would have to deal with when someone who has multiple Genies buys an expensive RVU TV and DirecTV has to tell them that they either have to return a Genie (or two) or they can't use the RVU functionality of their new TV? Or how about, "we can't let you have the 4K mini unless you return a Genie (or two)", when the 4K mini is the only way to watch 4K programming?


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## mickat (Jul 8, 2007)

Couldn't Directv just tell people that if they want more than 1 Genie then they can't have any clients? I think most of the people who want more than 1 Genie are like myself, long time cust. 20 yrs, and would know how to follow the instructions for having more than 1. It sure would make things simpler for someone like me.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

mickat said:


> When can the rest of us get 3 Genies?


Alas, I have no expectation of multiple genies on one account being generally available. I don't expect never and I don't expect soon--I don't know and don't have a sense.

There are a number of technical and logistical issues with multiple genies on an account. All of which can be resolved, of course, but those resolutions apparently are not prioritized ahead of other things.

In another thread, I have theorized the new FCC regulations on TV gateways may introduce an incentive for this to be resolved. Either by directly requiring it or by cable companies, in meeting the new FCC requirements creating new devices that allow multiples on the account. Thus putting competitive pressure on DIRECTV.



HoTat2 said:


> Likely never ...
> 
> DIRECTV engineering probably made a special exception for the author of the First Look here for the purposes of testing and evaluation of new firmware and equipment as member of the iamanedgecutter group.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


DIRECTV assisted in a couple ways including putting some of my old receivers back on my account for a short time. (And I paid the extra fees for the short time.)

Peace,
Tom


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

carl6 said:


> It is a 22 tuner LNB, but the 22nd tuner is for system use, not a receiver to use. I would expect any new reverse band LNB to be the same.


The chip it uses can handle 24 tuners, and the frequency spacing for the channels Directv uses would allow 23 tuners (22 user + 1 guide) while staying under 2150 MHz which is why I wondered. It is an artificial limit, though less limiting than the SWM 13 having six channels it could have used disabled.

In practice it doesn't matter, because the number of people who need exactly 22 tuners would be tiny, just a curiosity.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> The chip it uses can handle 24 tuners, and the frequency spacing for the channels Directv uses would allow 23 tuners (22 user + 1 guide) while staying under 2150 MHz which is why I wondered. It is an artificial limit, though less limiting than the SWM 13 having six channels it could have used disabled.
> 
> In practice it doesn't matter, because the number of people who need exactly 22 tuners would be tiny, just a curiosity.


Do you have any links to the chip used?

Peace,
Tom


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

mickat said:


> Couldn't Directv just tell people that if they want more than 1 Genie then they can't have any clients? I think most of the people who want more than 1 Genie are like myself, long time cust. 20 yrs, and would know how to follow the instructions for having more than 1. It sure would make things simpler for someone like me.


A company, with as many customers as DirecTV does, can't have one set of rules for some people and different rules for other people. And I don't believe for a minute that the majority of people who want more than 1 Genie would be any better at understanding and following the rules than the rest of the DirecTV population.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Bill Broderick said:


> A company, with as many customers as DirecTV does, can't have one set of rules for some people and different rules for other people.


First off Bill, I agree that any DirecTV customer should be allowed to have more than one Genie (that DirecTV should do whatever engineering is necessary to allow that to happen from a technical or logistical standpoint). Sadly, I do not expect that to happen (even if the technical constraints are resolved).

However, the rare engineering exceptions that have been made to the rule for limited pre-release testing, or to support testing such as Tom did on the new LNB, are certainly far short of "different rules for other people". I know of more than one person who had more than one Genie, and when that (2nd) Genie needed to come off the account for any reason, they were not permitted a replacement for it. The one-genie per account rule really is enforced for everyone (with the noted rare engineering exception).


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

slice1900 said:


> Still find it interesting that it is 21 tuners. I wonder if the reverse band LNB will be 22, to reduce future confusion, so people don't have to refer to "the old SWM 22 LNB" and "the new SWM 22 LNB with reverse band". Just "SWM 21 LNB" and "SWM 22 LNB". But who knows, maybe the reverse band one will remain 21 as well for some reason.
> 
> Also* strange that they even bothered with this one* with the reverse band LNB following so closely on its heels, unless this one costs more (which it could at least initially if it eliminates a lot of the analog RF components in the front end as I suspect it may) This 3D2 may have a very short life...


Maybe needed if multi Genies will shortly be allowed.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Drucifer said:


> Maybe needed if multi Genies will shortly be allowed.


But what's the reason to have this 3D2 versus the reverse band LNB that is already being distributed in certain markets?


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

Personally, I think that it's more likely that a future generation of the Genie (or whatever it will be called) will have more than 5 tuners, than it is that DirecTV will allow for multiple Genies on an account. Some cable companies are already offering 10 - 15 tuners on their Whole Home solution, In order to continue to compete, DirecTV may need to step up the number of tuners as well.

Similar to what Drucifer was thinking about multiple Genies on an account being the impetus for the 21 tuner LNB, I was thinking the same thing about a Genie with more tuners being the impetus.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

You can have 21 tuners now with DIRECTV, but only 5 of them are a Genie.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

RAD said:


> You can have 21 tuners now with DIRECTV, but only 5 of them are a Genie.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


Absolutely. There are many accounts that have multiple HR2x and H2x that exceed the 8, 13, or 16 tuner limits available on current LNB and external switch equipment. Even easier to do when combined with a Genie. Genie=5, 5 each HR2x = 10, 5 each H2x = 5, total = 20. Just an example of one possible mix of equipment. Yes, it is possible to design systems to support higher tuner counts, but it is much easier, and more cost effective to do so with a single LNB.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

carl6 said:


> Absolutely. There are many accounts that have multiple HR2x and H2x that exceed the 8, 13, or 16 tuner limits available on current LNB and external switch equipment. Even easier to do when combined with a Genie. Genie=5, 5 each HR2x = 10, 5 each H2x = 5, total = 20. Just an example of one possible mix of equipment. Yes, it is possible to design systems to support higher tuner counts, but it is much easier, and more cost effective to do so with a single LNB.


But the question remains, as slice says why the SL-3D2 when the very next one in line being distributed to select warehouses now, the SL-3DR, will likely support the same tuner count plus have Reverse Band capability?

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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> But the question remains, as slice says why the SL-3D2 when the very next one in line being distributed to select warehouses now, the SL-3DR, will likely support the same tuner count plus have Reverse Band capability?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Lower installation Cost -Plus Lower Ware house Stock and truck inventory - (of) PI & Swm8 & SW16 - If 4k takes off Then they are set Going forward - If Not (see 3d) Then the LNB works just the same - lower cost as in having to replace a lot of equipment.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

Bill Broderick said:


> Personally, I think that it's more likely that a future generation of the Genie (or whatever it will be called) will have more than 5 tuners, than it is that DirecTV will allow for multiple Genies on an account. Some cable companies are already offering 10 - 15 tuners on their Whole Home solution, In order to continue to compete, DirecTV may need to step up the number of tuners as well.
> 
> Similar to what Drucifer was thinking about multiple Genies on an account being the impetus for the 21 tuner LNB, I was thinking the same thing about a Genie with more tuners being the impetus.


A super Genie would need a super HDD and a super Series Manager if DirecTV wishes to continue with this 'lets put all our eggs into one basket' mentality.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

According to the meter, this 3DR LNB may support 22 tuners. I did this real quick. Will do more readings as the week goes along and time permits

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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Bill Broderick said:


> A company, with as many customers as DirecTV does, can't have one set of rules for some people and different rules for other people. And I don't believe for a minute that the majority of people who want more than 1 Genie would be any better at understanding and following the rules than the rest of the DirecTV population.


Without sharing any specifics relating to DIRECTV, when I've been a part of beta testing for products for many companies, I've regularly been operating outside of the rules for normal customers. Sometimes I'll have access to special teams relating to the beta test, sometimes I've allowed greater access to the logs or greater logging, sometimes I'll run parallel systems. These are typically engineering and/or product management decisions as to how to best test the new something being produced. I suppose you could consider it as a different set of rules, yet that seems to imply a negative context. When I'm beta testing, I'm partnering with a company to produce a better product. I'm taking certain risks during beta tests, I'm dedicating my time, and energy to test something.

Often the companies I where I was employed during these tests were eagerly looking forward to new features we were testing. Occasionally we actively helped to specify the new features with the design teams. And we worked together to help the other customers.

Peace,
Tom


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

peds48 said:


> According to the meter, this 3DR LNB may support 22 tuners. I did this real quick. Will do more readings as the week goes along and time permits
> 
> Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


Peds, you say this (AIM meter readout I assume) is for the "3DR" LNB, the one with Reverse Band?

Not the one that's the subject of this thread, the "3D2", the one without Rev. Band?

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

carl6 said:


> Absolutely. There are many accounts that have multiple HR2x and H2x that exceed the 8, 13, or 16 tuner limits available on current LNB and external switch equipment. Even easier to do when combined with a Genie. Genie=5, 5 each HR2x = 10, 5 each H2x = 5, total = 20. Just an example of one possible mix of equipment. Yes, it is possible to design systems to support higher tuner counts, but it is much easier, and more cost effective to do so with a single LNB.


well, HR54 take 8 channels


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> Still find it interesting that it is 21 tuners. I wonder if the reverse band LNB will be 22, to reduce future confusion, so people don't have to refer to "the old SWM 22 LNB" and "the new SWM 22 LNB with reverse band". Just "SWM 21 LNB" and "SWM 22 LNB". But who knows, maybe the reverse band one will remain 21 as well for some reason.
> 
> Also strange that they even bothered with this one with the reverse band LNB following so closely on its heels, unless this one costs more (which it could at least initially if it eliminates a lot of the analog RF components in the front end as I suspect it may) This 3D2 may have a very short life...


isn't we going circles ? isn't other thread was informative ?
the LNBF does have 22 channels
- send an inquiry cmd then extension cmd and you'll see the channels/port count, model ID, name, etc


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

carl6 said:


> It is a 22 tuner LNB, but the 22nd tuner is for system use, *not a receiver to use*. I would expect any new reverse band LNB to be the same.


sort of mis-presentation: one channel taken by a receiver/IRD/DVR for listening to network, APG

LNBF know nothing about the dedication, it just tune to specific tpn (there are many where the APG data is spooling)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> sort of mis-presentation: one channel taken by a receiver/IRD/DVR for listening to network, APG
> 
> LNBF know nothing about the dedication, it just tune to specific tpn (there are many where the APG data is spooling)


Or it's all about context again I guess, which can indeed make for confusion if not properly recognized. For years the analog SWiM and more recently the 1st gen. DSWM LNBF, the 3DS, SWiM channels were traditionally named for their max. program tuner support, always ignoring the additional SWiM channel reserved for the IRD's Network tuner.

Now comes the first of the 2nd gen. DSWM LNBs, the 3D2, and it's SWiM channel for the IRD's Network tuner gets included in the count obviously causing confusion in the number of SWiM channels available for programming.

Then just now in another possible confusing switch back to the traditional way of specifying SWiM channels, Peds may have discovered that the first of the new Reverse Band capable LNBFs, the 3DR, has 22 SWiM programming channels like the previous 3D2 should have logically had, making for 23 total. Go figure ....

Boy, my head is spinning. ...

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> ... (there are many where the APG data is spooling)


Though AIUI, there is only one assigned xpndr on Ku 101W (or 110W for Puerto Rico IRDs) for each Network dedicated for APG data transmitted at a high data rate, or "fast PIDs" for rapid IRD updating. Whereas others on 101, 110(for PR), and 119W spool out APG data at a much slower rate, or "slow PIDs."

These many other xpndrs spooling out slow APG packets are resorted to whenever an IRD's Network tuner cannot access the particular xpndr assigned to a Network for it's fast APG PIDs.

Guess in this case, slow guide updates still beats the IRD getting no updates at all, even though they take longer to download via "slow PIDs" .... 

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

nope, I'm talking about "fast PIDs" only; they are spread across many 101W's tpns


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> ...
> Then just now in another possible confusing switch back to the traditional way of specifying SWiM channels, Peds may have discovered that the first of the new Reverse Band capable LNBFs, the 3DR, has 22 SWiM programming channels like the previous 3D2 should have logocally had, making for 23 total. Go figure ....
> ...


I wouldn't be so excite, the LNB could be just Gen2 w/out Reverse Band support. He didn't confirm the speculation.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> nope, I'm talking about "fast PIDs" only; they are spread across many 101W's tpns


Ok, but the "many" in this case then is still one xpndr for each Network, CONUS or LiL, correct?

Nets. 0, 1, 2, 3, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15, making for 10 Ku xpndrs assigned for CONUS channel APG info. fast PIDs. And then other Ku xpndrs assigned to LiL Nets. 512-724 for local market APG data via fast PIDs?

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't be so excite, the LNB could be just Gen2 w/out Reverse Band support. He didn't confirm the speculation.


I know, that's why I said a "possible switch back" earlier. 

Still awaiting Ped's confirmation this AIM readout was really for a 3DR.

However, if it is a 3D2 by mistake then we still have a discrepancy. Since the 3D2 has been confirmed to have only 21 SWiM programming channels, why is the AIM indicating 22?

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> I know, that's why I said a "possible switch back" earlier.
> 
> Still awaiting Ped's confirmation this AIM readout was really for a 3DR.
> 
> ...


The/any LNBF doesn't care if it's a network+channels tpn or only a channels tpn. There is no such tpn dedicated to network only.

AIM is a device, not a human who could twist own words , so it is reported what LNBF respond to it after getting a request.

I think we did settle the count back to other thread ...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, but the "many" in this case then is still one xpndr for each Network, CONUS or LiL, correct?
> 
> Nets. 0, 1, 2, 3, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15, making for 10 Ku xpndrs assigned for CONUS channel APG info. fast PIDs. And then other Ku xpndrs assigned to LiL Nets. 512-724 for local market APG data via fast PIDs?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


not that simple; one general rule - don't use SB tpns; other CONUS tpns carry a mix of APG PIDs; some up to 16 PIDs with LiL data, some less ...


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> Peds, you say this (AIM meter readout I assume) is for the "3DR" LNB, the one with Reverse Band?
> 
> Not the one that's the subject of this thread, the "3D2", the one without Rev. Band?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


yes, reverse

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

it would be logical to suggest, the new RB LNBF utilize same chips as Gen2
peds could post model ID printed on it ...


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> it would be logical to suggest, the new RB LNBF utilize same chips as Gen2
> peds could post model ID printed on it ...


If it's the Rev. Band LNBF it should be the model number on the photos I reposted by Scott on Satelliteguys.us in the other thread "3D2RBLNBR0-01."

(Apparently mfr. by WNC)

There's another long alphanumeric number underneath the mod.# on the LNB's green lable sticker as well. But appears to be just a serial number.

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

perhaps peds had different one ? he did name it as "this *3DR* LNB"


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> The/any LNBF doesn't care if it's a network+channels tpn or only a channels tpn. There is no such tpn dedicated to network only.
> 
> AIM is a device, not a human who could twist own words , so it is reported what LNBF respond to it after getting a request.
> 
> I think we did settle the count back to other thread ...


But the AIM's SWiM test feature is specifically designed to exclude the common 976 MHz SWiM channel for guide and other SI data. And then list the rest as what's available and/or show which IRDs are assigned what SWiM channel number(s) as shown in Ped's image.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> perhaps peds had different one ? he did name it as "this *3DR* LNB"


Well P. Smith ...

On the other forum a tech. said some 30,000 Rev. Band LNBFs are being shipped to warehouses in the following locales of the NE as part of an initial pilot program.

That's Ped's neck of the woods... 

Fairfield
Hanover, MD.
Harrisburg, PA.
Monroeville, PA.
Olyphant, PA.
Pennsauken, NJ.
Roanoke, VA.
Ronkonkoma, NY.
Somerset
Virginia Beach, VA.
Omaha, NE.
Richmond VA.

If a sub is in the market near one of these warehouses they could be in the pilot area when DIRECTV starts using the reverse band LNBFs. For Fairfield and Somerset not sure which state is being referenced, but it is likely to be east coast like the other cities.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

My apologies, give me a minute to fix the formatting. Tapatalk app went goofy on me for some reason...

Fixed. ...

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice speculated RB LNBF would be used near El Segundo first ... where is CA test area ?!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> But the AIM's SWiM test feature is *specifically designed to exclude* the common 976 MHz SWiM channel for guide and other SI data. And then list the rest as what's available and/or show which IRDs are assigned what SWiM channel number(s) as shown in Ped's image.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


seem to me the speculation is wrong


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> slice speculated RB LNBF would be used near El Segundo first ... where is CA test area ?!


Oh well ... just have to keep an eye on eBay or something for a seller to unscrupulously get their hands on a supply of them like with the 3D2 I suppose. ... 

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> slice speculated RB LNBF would be used near El Segundo first ... where is CA test area ?!


I speculated it would be _tested_ near that location (so they can better gauge how close you can live to a major Ku uplink and still be able to receive reverse band) If they're shipping 30K of them to multiple warehouses in the NE, it has already finishing that testing process. Once they leave beta testing and go into random customers hands they can only collect data on stuff like out of the box failures or follow up service calls, but can't really track their day to day performance.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Bill Broderick said:


> Personally, I think that it's more likely that a future generation of the Genie (or whatever it will be called) will have more than 5 tuners, than it is that DirecTV will allow for multiple Genies on an account. Some cable companies are already offering 10 - 15 tuners on their Whole Home solution, In order to continue to compete, DirecTV may need to step up the number of tuners as well.
> 
> Similar to what Drucifer was thinking about multiple Genies on an account being the impetus for the 21 tuner LNB, I was thinking the same thing about a Genie with more tuners being the impetus.


My money is on the HR54 being the last Genie, and Directv never allowing more than one Genie on an account (other than the exceptions granted to testers etc.)

I expect AT&T branded gateways with no video output replacing the Genie to appear next year. They will support more than one of those (though maybe not from day one) because that AT&T line will have only gateways and clients. No standalone DVRs/receivers. All the existing Directv stuff will be supported for many years, but once they have enough inventory of the new stuff it will be treated like the HD only installs. New customers after a certain date will only get the AT&T equipment and won't be able to activate H/HR gear on their accounts.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

May be it's time make spin-off the sidetracking discussion about multiple genies on one account ?

The thread is dedicated to new LNBF.


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## gpauljr (Jul 11, 2007)

What is the advantage of "reverse band"?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

gpauljr said:


> What is the advantage of "reverse band"?


The biggest is more bandwidth for satellite transmissions. Thus allowing for more competition (in theory) and 4k channels.

Peace,
Tom


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

gpauljr said:


> What is the advantage of "reverse band"?


Additional spectrum to transmit new programming, 4K and otherwise. 18 36 MHz wide transponders each at 99 and 103W downlinked to subscribers between 17.3-17.7 GHz.

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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Someone in another thread was talking about getting a THR22. I wonder about its compatibility in the software.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

dpeters11 said:


> Someone in another thread was talking about getting a THR22. I wonder about its compatibility in the software.


it's too old model; no 4k support in any variation, so practically the RB LNBF is not for the DVR


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Well the H/HR series (but probably not THR22) got a software update a while back that included the 3DR/5DR LNBs and if selected added the 99cr/103cr screens. To me that says conclusively that reverse band won't be used exclusively for 4K.

Using it for HD channels would be stupid - they'd have to upgrade every single customer who wanted to watch those channels. So the use beyond 4K would be something that would only involve new installs - i.e. mirroring CONUS content from 95 and maybe 119 as some of us have speculated for a couple years now. There's no other reason they'd bother to have these satellites visible on the H/HR receivers that can't do 4K.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Scott so far mentioned just the H20 as incompatible with the new RB LNBF.

He also mentioned the D11 as well, but that makes no sense as the D11 is not SWiM capable anyway.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Based on redh the THR22 is still getting firmware updates so presumably it is OK. There's nothing stopping Directv from doing a firmware update for the H20 to handle the new stuff, but they may want to get rid of them since it can't do whole home and has the older interface.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

The LNBF designed by Pro Brand International (Europe), made in China.
(US Patent 7239285B2 granted for triple elliptical wave-guide)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> So, slice, would you interesting to know the model [3SD2] has ten (10) IF lines coming to the switch chip ?
> 
> If I would count, I'm getting the ten as:
> I - 101W (R+L)
> ...


P. Smith, this "3SD2" is the same "3D2" as the 3D2LNBR0-02?

(i.e. therefore the "-02" is the mfr. code for Pro Brand International?)

And are the IF ranges listed for those 10 lines in the specs for it?

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> ... this "3SD2" is the same "3D2" as the 3D2LNBR0-02?
> 
> (i.e. therefore the "-02" is the mfr. code for Pro Brand International?)
> 
> And are the IF ranges listed for those 10 lines in the specs for it?


Yes, external green label state 3D2LNBR0-02, on PCB - 3SD2.
We need to find a PDF first, but we knew the IF ranges already for analog LNBF; do you think the DLNB has different ?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Yes, external green label state 3D2LNBR0-02, on PCB - 3SD2.
> We need to find a PDF first, but we knew the IF ranges already for analog LNBF; do you think the DLNB has different ?


Yeah slice acknowledged the multiple input lines to the digital SWM chip of around 10 like that before, but said the IF ranges on them actually all fell into the 250-750 MHz range.

I had thought as well the IF ranges on those lines would be as used by the analog SWM and as listed in the system tables as various band segments somewhere between 250-2150 MHz. But slice said the specs. for the chip had all the lines at only 250-750 MHz.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Well, my initial count seems to me was wrong; connecting dots from a log and PCB, it does have four double inputs (to top of the chip on a picture) and one double line output (at bottom).
It's creating interesting mix of bands, sats, second stage freqs [700/1400] ...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

That chip you pictured is Maxlinear's MXL865. It has 5 wideband (250 - 2300 MHz) input and supports up to 24 channels on the output. How did you include there were 10 IF lines connected to it? Somewhere those must be combined - probably down to the 4 standard IF lines that Directv's analog front end outputs. Maybe this LNB uses a redesigned front end but it that chip only supports five inputs, not ten.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

perhaps I shouldn't post any picture or info about the DLNB or post any my thought here


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Scott just posted photos of the 5 LNB version of the new Reverse Band LNB (or "5DR").

Predictably the P/N is 5D2RBLNBR0-01

Be easy to identify this one on the dish.

Looks like 1/2 of the old analog Slimline-5 lol. ...























Ignore Scott's Satelliteguys.us watermark on the photos of course.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

Sorta looks like a throw back to the "sidecar" almost


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

WestDC said:


> Sorta looks like a throw back to the "sidecar" almost


Yeah, like a Slimline version of the old AT-9 sidecar LNB when you have the blank half of a Slimline-5 form factor removed like that.

Easy to see which direction the wing satellites 110 and 119 are on with this shape.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

WestDC said:


> Sorta looks like a throw back to the "sidecar" almost


Same comment I made about it else where. Mine broke (2006) and was replaced with an SL5.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> Scott just posted photos of the 5 LNB version of the new Reverse Band LNB (or "5DR").
> 
> Predictably the P/N is 5D2RBLNBR0-01
> 
> ...


HoTat2, please, same problem - the pictures are too big - need to resize them down (1024x768 would be OK), my ISP and a computer cannot display it, just showing circling mark.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Ok, I'm just uploading them to the forum via the Tapatalk app. on my Smartphone as Scott posted them on his site. Didn't alter them in anyway.

But I will try tomorrow using a PC to scale them down if possible.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

And please open new thread for the news


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> HoTat2, please, same problem - the pictures are too big - need to resize them down (1024x768 would be OK), my ISP and a computer cannot display it, just showing circling mark.


OK, try the images now P. Smith.

Re-sized them down.

Sorry earlier, was just posting the files downloaded from SatelliteGuys.us via the Tapatalk app on my SP and didn't pay attention to their actual size.

Though I guess I should have when I noticed the good while it took Tapatalk to upload them.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Much better, thank you (for the resize).


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## twizt3dkitty (Aug 29, 2009)

As far as the reverse band lnb goes the 5 will only be manufactured by wnc, there are three manufacturers for the 3. I can confirm right now that it supports at least 16 tuners with all irds on ce fw. Not sure if NR caps at 13 or not, but documentation states 13 right now. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

twizt3dkitty said:


> As far as the reverse band lnb goes the 5 will only be manufactured by wnc, there are three manufacturers for the 3. I can confirm right now that it supports at least 16 tuners with all irds on ce fw. Not sure if NR caps at 13 or not, but documentation states 13 right now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Still curious, what do your levels on 99(cr) and 103(cr) look like if any?

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## twizt3dkitty (Aug 29, 2009)

103 is dead and 99 is low.

Last one is to prevent all the haters from saying I can't peak my dish.




















Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## twizt3dkitty (Aug 29, 2009)

Tuner 7 photographed to prove it's on a 54 with rv lnb

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## mkdtv21 (May 27, 2007)

Can someone answer this simple question for me who doesn't understand any of this. Can this 22 tuner lnb receive 101 and 119 and if it can't does it not even matter since the current lnb's that receive 101 and 119 already support 22 tuners or more? Or does this 22 tuner lnb receive everthing?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

mkdtv21 said:


> Can someone answer this simple question for me who doesn't understand any of this. Can this 22 tuner lnb receive 101 and 119 and if it can't does it not even matter since the current lnb's that receive 101 and 119 already support 22 tuners or more? Or does this 22 tuner lnb receive everthing?


There is a SWM5 Reverse Band LNB, this LNB is capable of seeing 99,101,103, 110, 119. This LNB will support up to 22 tuners and 16 nodes. However the SWM5 Reverse Band is not yet available to the General public

Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

twizt3dkitty said:


> 103 is dead and 99 is low.
> 
> Last one is to prevent all the haters from saying I can't peak my dish.


Could you reload your pictures after re-sizing to 1025x768 usable size ?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

twizt3dkitty said:


> 103 is dead and 99 is low.
> 
> Last one is to prevent all the haters from saying I can't peak my dish.
> 
> ...


Ok, I'll say it--in fun. You can't peak your dish. 

Obviously, you peaked it pretty darn awesome! 

Thanks for the updates!

Peace,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

mkdtv21 said:


> Can someone answer this simple question for me who doesn't understand any of this. Can this 22 tuner lnb receive 101 and 119 and if it can't does it not even matter since the current lnb's that receive 101 and 119 already support 22 tuners or more? Or does this 22 tuner lnb receive everthing?


This particular model, the 3D2 is only 3 locations, 99, 101, and 103.

I think, but do not know for certain, there is a 5d2 that would have 3 round feedhorns and thus also receive from 110 and 119.

As peds48 mentions, there definitely is a reverse band version of the 5 location LNB in the works.

Peace,
Tom


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## mkdtv21 (May 27, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> This particular model, the 3D2 is only 3 locations, 99, 101, and 103.
> 
> I think, but do not know for certain, there is a 5d2 that would have 3 round feedhorns and thus also receive from 110 and 119.
> 
> ...


Does the new reverse band lnb also support 22 tuners? This is all very complicated.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

mkdtv21 said:


> Does the new reverse band lnb also support 22 tuners? This is all very complicated.


We are pretty certain it does/will but haven't tested yet.

Since DIRECTV's suppliers are using some pretty cool single chip solutions, most of which support 22 or 24 channels, we have a lot of evidence backing the thought it will be 22 tuners. (21 plus guide, using the normal terminology.) 

Peace,
Tom


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## mkdtv21 (May 27, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> We are pretty certain it does/will but haven't tested yet.
> 
> Since DIRECTV's suppliers are using some pretty cool single chip solutions, most of which support 22 or 24 channels, we have a lot of evidence backing the thought it will be 22 tuners. (21 plus guide, using the normal terminology.)
> 
> ...


ok thankyou


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> This particular model, the 3D2 is only 3 locations, 99, 101, and 103.
> 
> I think, but do not know for certain, there is a 5d2 that would have 3 round feedhorns and thus also receive from 110 and 119.
> 
> ...


The types are ...

3DS = 3 LNB (99, 101, and 103W) 1st gen. DSWM LNB, 13 tuner support. No Reverse Band capability.

3D2 = 3 LNB (99, 101, and 103W) 2nd gen. DSWM LNB, 21 tuner support. No Reverse Band capability.

3DR = 3 LNB (99, 101, and 103W) 2nd gen. DSWM LNB, 22 tuner support. Reverse Band capable.

5DR = 5 LNB (99, 101, 103, 110, and 119W) 2nd gen. DSWM LNB, 22 tuner support. Reverse Band capable.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## mkdtv21 (May 27, 2007)

How far into the future will it be a reality for the general consumer to have the 3DR or the 5DR?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

It shouldn't be very long, but until Directv actually _uses_ reverse band for something, there's no reason to be concerned about getting one. If you really want one ASAP just because, check eBay.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

mkdtv21 said:


> How far into the future will it be a reality for the general consumer to have the 3DR or the 5DR?


I look at it two ways: generally available for customers who need it and generally available as the default installs for every new customer (or upgrade/mover/etc.)

I expect the 3/5DRs to be generally available to 4k customers in the next 6 months-ish. Without 4k channels available, there isn't need. Yet there appears to be some testing going on.

As to when they will be the default install for all customers, I don't know. When the 3/5DR as the same cost as the 3D2, then they will be the default. Or perhaps even if they are a dollar or two more expensive.

Peace,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

HoTat2 said:


> The types are ...
> 
> 3DS = 3 LNB (99, 101, and 103W) 1st gen. DSWM LNB, 13 tuner support
> 
> ...


Thanks!

Is there a 5d2 planned?

Peace,
Tom


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

There is a chance to get RB LNBF early, if DTV will move international programming from 95W to RB...


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## alnielsen (Dec 31, 2006)

All I know is rumor that has been picked up from other sources.
The 3D2R, there was an update sent out starting 12/18 to update it from a swm 13 to a swm 21.
There is a 5D2R. I've seen pictures of it. It reminds me of the original HD sidecar LNB. Maybe slightly less flimsy (the arm broke on mine back in 2006).
4K transmissions are suppose to start in Apr 2016 with The Masters golf tournament.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Tom Robertson said:


> I look at it two ways: generally available for customers who need it and generally available as the default installs for every new customer (or upgrade/mover/etc.)
> 
> I expect the 3/5DRs to be generally available to 4k customers in the next 6 months-ish. Without 4k channels available, there isn't need. Yet there appears to be some testing going on.
> 
> As to when they will be the default install for all customers, I don't know. When the 3/5DR as the same cost as the 3D2, then they will be the default. Or perhaps even if they are a dollar or two more expensive.


I bet it doesn't take long before the 3DR becomes the standard LNB used for all new Directv installs. There's no reason it should cost more than the 3D2, and if it has a new mostly digital front end I'd expect it to cost less once it is made in sufficient volume - so the more volume they can drive the better off they are. The only analog components that would be different would be a few extra preamps and filters. The feedhorns are probably just slightly larger to collect the slightly lower frequency, and the DSWM chip would the same in either one (unless they did something more interesting and combined a digital LNB back end with the DSWM in a new custom chip, but that would make it cost less, not more)

They will still have inventory of SWM8, SWM13 and the 3D2 to burn through, so a lot of the timing will depend on exactly how quickly that happens. I still think the SWM13 was only created to use up excess EN5400 chips because they probably had to hit a minimum order size target from the fab to get decent pricing, and the DSWM13 was never going to drive much volume - they would have been $1000/ea if the DSWM13 was all they were ever used for. The 3D2 is interesting, haven't figured out exactly where it fits in - maybe some components for the 3DR took longer to complete/test and so they did a version without reverse band support to get it out there. I could be wrong, but I don't expect the 3D2 will ever see large volumes; once they feel comfortable with the 3DR the 3D2 should disappear.


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## twizt3dkitty (Aug 29, 2009)

I can tell you the rv lnb supports at least 16 tuners. That's how many I have 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Hr54, hr44, hr24x3


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Is there a 5d2 planned?
> 
> ...


Not to my knowledge, which is another reason it makes me think that for whatever reasons the non-Reverse Band 3D2 like it's predecessor the 1st gen. 3DS is to be a limited run LNBF as slice contends.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## twizt3dkitty (Aug 29, 2009)

HoTat2 said:


> Not to my knowledge, which is another reason it makes me think that for whatever reasons the non-Reverse Band 3D2 like it's predecessor the 1st gen. 3DS is to be a limited run LNBF as slice contends.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


I would strongly agree with that  I have a reverse 5 up though, there's no reason to continue manufacturing dswm gen1 or 2 at all once reverse is out of beta.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Saw on the other site the reverse band LNB was tested with a bunch of receivers and found it was also limited to 21 tuners like the 3D2. Based on what peds48's meter showed with it having 22 channels it looks like this is basically a firmware difference in the receivers vs the meter.

We know the chip both LNBs use supports 23 channels (plus guide) but as with the SWM13 Directv has chosen to use fewer channels than the LNB is capable of. Probably they will update the firmware in the meters to match the receivers at some point, since there's no point the meter showing a channel the receivers won't use.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> Saw on the other site the reverse band LNB was tested with a bunch of receivers and found it was also limited to 21 tuners like the 3D2. Based on what peds48's meter showed with it having 22 channels it looks like this is basically* a firmware difference in the receivers* vs the meter.
> 
> We know the chip both LNBs use supports 23 channels (plus guide) but as with the SWM13 Directv has chosen to use fewer channels than the LNB is capable of. Probably they will update the firmware in the meters to match the receivers at some point, since there's no point the meter showing a channel the receivers won't use.


I don't see the difference, as I posted before, a IRD's FW query of the LNBF returning a count eq 22; how to use the number is up to the device (meter or IRD).


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> I don't see the difference, as I posted before, a IRD's FW query of the LNBF returning a count eq 22; how to use the number is up to the device (meter or IRD).


But the AIM read as 4 tuners in use for whatever setup that was. 18 available, and in a note states that "tuner 1 is shared by all IRDs" so is not included in the count.

Therefore this = 4 + 18 + 1 = 23 total

So there is a discrepancy between the AIM and IRDs here.

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

The AIM's FW producing confusing output; the meter works with same DLNB and get same info from it. I can give you binary output from 3D2 ...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

twizt3dkitty said:


> 103 is dead and 99 is low.
> 
> Last one is to prevent all the haters from saying I can't peak my dish


Now I know why I missed the SS values for Reverse Band - as HoTat2 mentioned in other thread, a size of the snapshots (man !) is not for those who have 0.5 Mbps DL speed 

Could you please, before posting, resize the pictures to usual for viewing at web sites by anyone (regardless ISP speeds) - to 1024x768 pixels or so ?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

From what I can tell, twizt3dkitty's 99(cr) numbers in the photo were ...

xpndr 2 = 88
xpndr 3 = 82
xpndr 16 = 86
xpndr 17 = 84

103(cr) is all zeros of course.

Levels were all taken from an HR54 on it's tuner #7

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Thanks, practically same as other poster gave us.

So, any prediction when we will see any channel on RB tpns ? At least *TEST one.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Tom Robertson said:


> We are pretty certain it does/will but haven't tested yet.
> 
> Since DIRECTV's suppliers are using some pretty cool single chip solutions, most of which support 22 or 24 channels, we have a lot of evidence backing the thought it will be 22 tuners. (21 plus guide, using the normal terminology.)
> 
> ...


Adding to that count confusion - HR54 has a sign at F-connector "SWiM-7"; what DTV is created here ? - empty complication !


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> The types are ...
> 
> 3DS = 3 LNB (99, 101, and 103W) 1st gen. DSWM LNB, 13 tuner support. No Reverse Band capability.
> 
> ...


The reverse band LNBs being sold on eBay are 3D2rbLNBR0-01


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

bobnielsen said:


> The reverse band LNBs being sold on eBay are 3D2rbLNBR0-01


Yeah, ....

But I'm switching to calling the Reverse Band types "3D2RB" and "5D2RB" for short instead of "3DR" and "5DR" like I posted in that list which I think were just the abridged names DIRECTV used for the LNB list of the receiver setup.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> Thanks, practically same as other poster gave us.
> 
> So, any prediction when we will see any channel on RB tpns ? At least *TEST one.


Hard to make any prediction without knowing their plans for when 4K channels will appear (some claim January, others April) and how they will be delivered at first. Directv's long range plans are clearly to use transponder bonding on reverse band, but I think there's a very good chance that initially they will use one 4K channel per transponder on Ka so customers who want 4K don't have to get upgraded to HR54 and a new LNB from day one. Unless they have production volumes of both to meet demand, which I doubt. Some customers would still need a C61K but those have been around longer so production volumes are probably higher, and the demand for them would be reduced by some customers having 4K RVU TVs they can use at least for now.

If they do plan to use reverse band to deliver 4K from day one, broadcasts won't start in two weeks, there's just no way that can work without pissing off a lot of customers. If it isn't until April with the Masters, using reverse band and bonded transponders from day one becomes more likely but still not certain. They have a lot of spare Ka bandwidth at the moment, dedicating a few transponders to 4K channels would be no big deal and give them time to get supplies of HR54s and reverse band LNBs to where they need to be.

The readings in the 80s suggest broadcast at reduced power so maybe Directv is still doing some type of interference testing since this would be the first nationwide use of reverse band in the US.

I'm guessing there will probably be some announcements about when 4K starts during CES. Maybe not from Directv since I don't think they participate there, but someone will announce something that will let us have a pretty good idea when to expect Directv to start since I think they will want to be on board from day one.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Though I would add that DIRECTV has a lot of spare Ka bandwidth on the assumption that the strange way DIRECTV continues to way under utilize D14's CONUS beam payload does not indicate anything wrong with the bird.

And also assuming DIRECTV can finally complete clearing out SW1 of locals and PR mirrors to allow D15 to use that spectrum for it's 8 lower Ka-hi CONUS xpndrs.

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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Here is some info on the 3 Reverse Band LNB

AIM Version: 4.0 Build: 1080
Db Version: 0040
Date: 12-13-2015, 12:13:53
Account: SampleId123
Notes: 
ODU: Slimline-3DR
Multiswitch: None
Zip: 46825
Config: ODU-SPL-IRD
Location: At ODU output
Options: All nationals with spots
Sat/Tr Freq(MHz) Pwr(dBm) SNR(dB) SQ Offset(MHz) Lock Volts(V) Cur(mA) ODU DSWM
ssss/tt xxxx.xx -xxx.x xx.x xxx (-)x.xx xxx xx.x xxxx abcd x 
99a/1 1680.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/2 1680.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/3 1720.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/4 1720.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/5 1760.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/6 1760.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/7 1800.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/8 1800.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/11 1880.00 -25.3 14.1 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/13 1920.00 -25.4 13.6 96 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/14 1920.00 -25.4 14.3 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/15 1960.00 -25.3 13.8 96 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/16 1960.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/17 2000.00 -25.3 13.2 95 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/18 2000.00 -25.3 14.2 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/19 2040.00 -25.4 13.0 95 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/20 2040.00 -25.3 14.1 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/21 2080.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99a/23 2120.00 -25.4 14.1 97 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/1 274.00 -25.4 13.8 96 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/2 274.00 -25.4 13.5 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/3 314.00 -25.5 12.4 92 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/4 314.00 -25.6 12.7 94 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/5 354.00 -25.6 13.3 95 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/6 354.00 -25.4 13.0 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/7 394.00 -25.7 12.6 94 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/8 394.00 -25.6 12.8 95 0.45 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/9 434.00 -25.4 13.2 95 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/10 434.00 -25.5 13.2 95 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/11 474.00 -25.5 12.6 94 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/12 474.00 -25.5 12.8 95 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/13 514.00 -25.4 14.0 97 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/14 514.00 -25.5 13.8 96 -0.20 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/15 554.00 -25.2 12.5 93 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/16 554.00 -25.3 16.7 100 -0.19 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/17 598.00 -25.4 13.5 96 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/18 598.00 -25.2 15.0 99 -0.18 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/19 642.00 -25.3 16.3 100 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/20 642.00 -25.2 17.4 100 -0.19 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/21 682.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/22 682.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/23 726.00 -25.5 13.4 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
99b/24 726.00 -25.3 12.3 92 -0.18 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/1 974.00 -26.5 15.2 99 -0.63 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/2 988.58 -29.2 14.4 97 -0.70 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/3 1003.16 -27.1 14.5 98 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/4 1017.74 -26.0 16.1 100 -0.57 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/5 1032.32 -27.4 14.6 98 -0.57 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/6 1046.90 -27.6 17.3 100 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/7 1061.48 -27.1 15.2 99 -0.58 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/8 1076.06 -26.8 17.2 100 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/9 1090.64 -27.1 15.3 99 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/10 1105.22 -29.4 15.4 99 -0.83 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/11 1119.80 -27.3 15.4 99 -0.63 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/12 1134.38 -26.2 16.2 100 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/13 1148.96 -27.2 15.5 100 -0.70 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/14 1163.54 -27.7 17.3 100 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/15 1178.12 -27.0 15.1 99 -0.57 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/16 1192.70 -27.4 16.9 100 -0.58 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/17 1207.28 -27.4 15.0 99 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/18 1221.86 -26.8 18.8 100 -0.56 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/19 1236.44 -27.1 14.9 98 -0.70 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/20 1251.02 -26.9 15.1 99 -0.64 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/21 1265.60 -27.2 14.9 98 -0.70 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/22 1280.18 -27.5 16.9 100 -0.76 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/23 1294.76 -27.2 15.3 99 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/24 1309.34 -27.0 17.0 100 -0.58 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/25 1323.92 -27.2 14.8 98 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/26 1338.50 -27.2 16.0 100 -0.62 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/27 1353.08 -27.2 14.5 98 -0.70 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/28 1367.66 -27.2 12.3 92 -0.55 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/29 1382.24 -26.9 15.3 99 -0.57 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/30 1396.82 -27.0 16.8 100 -0.45 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/31 1411.40 -26.3 14.4 97 -0.64 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
101/32 1425.98 -26.2 17.4 100 -0.58 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/1 1691.67 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/2 1691.67 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/3 1754.17 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/4 1754.17 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/5 1800.67 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/6 1800.67 -25.7 9.8 77 -0.14 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/9 1840.00 -25.4 14.6 98 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/10 1840.00 -25.6 13.6 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/11 1880.00 -25.5 14.0 97 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/12 1880.00 -25.4 13.3 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/13 1920.00 -25.5 13.6 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/14 1920.00 -25.7 13.1 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/15 1960.00 -25.5 13.5 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/16 1960.00 -25.6 13.4 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/17 2000.00 -25.4 13.4 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/18 2000.00 -25.6 13.2 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/19 2040.00 -25.5 13.7 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/20 2040.00 -25.6 13.2 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/21 2080.00 -25.4 13.3 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/22 2080.00 -25.6 13.0 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/23 2120.00 -25.5 13.8 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103a/24 2120.00 -25.3 13.8 96 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/1 274.00 -25.7 14.1 97 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/2 274.00 -25.5 14.1 97 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/3 314.00 -25.6 12.6 94 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/4 314.00 -25.6 12.9 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/5 354.00 -25.4 13.2 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/6 354.00 -25.5 13.3 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/7 394.00 -25.6 12.7 94 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/8 394.00 -25.6 12.8 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/9 434.00 -25.5 13.4 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/10 434.00 -25.6 13.2 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/11 474.00 -25.6 13.0 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/12 474.00 -25.6 13.1 95 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/13 514.00 -25.6 13.2 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/14 514.00 -25.4 13.3 95 -0.17 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/15 554.00 -25.4 15.7 100 -0.16 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/16 554.00 -25.4 11.1 85 -0.15 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/17 598.00 -25.3 14.5 98 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/18 598.00 -25.4 14.1 97 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/19 642.00 -25.3 14.1 97 -0.16 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/20 642.00 -25.5 12.1 91 -0.15 YES 21.0 430 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/21 682.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/22 682.00 -- -- -- -- NO 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/23 726.00 -25.8 15.5 100 -0.15 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2 
103b/24 726.00 -25.2 13.6 96 -0.15 YES 21.0 440 Slimline-3DR 2


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## CuttySnark (Oct 23, 2015)

Hmmm...I haven't seen a transponder survey in 3 months or so. When did D* start using tpns 15-20,23,24 on 103/99cb and tpn 6 on 103ca? Does this have to do with reverse band or is it the launch of d13/14 (or both?)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

CuttySnark said:


> Hmmm...I haven't seen a transponder survey in 3 months or so. When did D* start using tpns 15-20,23,24 on 103/99cb and tpn 6 on 103ca? Does this have to do with reverse band or is it the launch of d13/14 (or both?)


The AIM xpndr survey log is simply listing all the Ka xpndrs 1-24 each as "a" for Ka A band and "b" for Ka B band at both 99 and 103W. It's not parsing them as on the receiver signal strength displays 99ca/cb, 103ca/cb, 99s, and 103s.

So xpndrs 15-24 are not on 103/99cb, but as spotbeam xpndrs on 103s and 99s.

And xpndr 6 is not on 103ca, but is a spotbeam xpndr on 103s ...

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Also, there is no "D13," it was canceled in the series. The latest satellites are D14 at 99W and D15 at 103W.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Was there ever supposed to be a D13 or did they skip it like hotels that don't have a 13th floor?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> Was there ever supposed to be a D13 or did they skip it like hotels that don't have a 13th floor?


Yes, as a Ku band replacement for D5 at 110W. DIRECTV scrapped the plan though and went to the next in the series D14.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Seems like a giant waste of money to launch a brand new satellite to handle 3 transponders, when there would be multiple less expensive options to handle that. Almost wonder if they announced that knowing they were never going to actually do it, just so they'd have to excuse to skip '13' without seeming superstitious


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> Seems like a giant waste of money to launch a brand new satellite to handle 3 transponders, when there would be multiple less expensive options to handle that. Almost wonder if they announced that knowing they were never going to actually do it, just so they'd have to excuse to skip '13' without seeming superstitious


No there was more to it. It wasn't goin to broadcast just three transponders they wanted to do something else too. Can't recall exactly what it was but it might have even been something for Mexico on the same sat or something of that nature. I think it's somewhere on this forum.......


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

It had to do with DIRECTV'S fear for the future viability of the Ku DBS band because of the possible interference from "tweener slot" licenses at only half the separation or 4.5° from the current standard 9° spacing the FCC was granting at the time. Beginning with one on one side of 110W and another on the other side pending.

See Tom's old post here from 2/2008;
http://dbstalk.com/index.php?/topic/76394-DIRECTV-and-Ka-(with-satellite-configs)#entry1434615

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I remember seeing something where Directv was investigating interference by tweeners and did a survey of some of their dishes to check how well they were aligned. They had some misaligned by up to 2.5* that were still working. If there's another satellite position 4.5* away (which might really be 4* depending on the exact slot each occupies) then obviously you could no longer be so sloppy with your aim and still have things work.

That would no longer be a problem for Directv, only those with the old oval 101/110/119 dishes could possibly be affected. If you have a Slimline Ka won't work when the dish is aimed that badly so no one has a Slimline that's off by anywhere near 2*. If tweeners are a problem at all, they'd be a problem for Dish, not Directv. More likely Directv didn't want the potential competition, opening up a bunch of new slots would allow room for a third satellite MVPD to begin operations.

Did anyone ever get approved for tweener slots, or launch any tweener satellites?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> I remember seeing something where Directv was investigating interference by tweeners and did a survey of some of their dishes to check how well they were aligned. They had some misaligned by up to 2.5* that were still working. If there's another satellite position 4.5* away (which might really be 4* depending on the exact slot each occupies) then obviously you could no longer be so sloppy with your aim and still have things work.


It is not just misalignment that is a problem with tweeners. One can have the most accurately aimed dish in the country and still potentially pick up a tweener slot due to the "slop" that is required to be designed into the dish. LNB spacings that are designed to be used nationwide in any location with an eye wide enough to catch the correct satellite whether the LNB is installed in Maine or Florida, Seattle or San Diego and all points in between. A slot 4.5 degrees away can easily be within the eye of an LNB, especially in northern US locations.

Hopefully the polarity flip will help lower interference to acceptable levels. The polarity flip helps for 2 degree spaced C and Ku satellites. But most people are not trying to pick up multiple locations using an LNB without any spacing adjustment.



slice1900 said:


> Did anyone ever get approved for tweener slots, or launch any tweener satellites?


Nothing yet that I know of,


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Ah yeah I didn't consider the geometry of the LNB. I guess that's another reason for Directv to concentrate everything that matters in 99/101/103 since there would be only one Ku slot and thus no spacing to worry about on the SL3 LNB.


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## CuttySnark (Oct 23, 2015)

HoTat2 said:


> The AIM xpndr survey log is simply listing all the Ka xpndrs 1-24 each as "a" for Ka A band and "b" for Ka B band at both 99 and 103W. It's not parsing them as on the receiver signal strength displays 99ca/cb, 103ca/cb, 99s, and 103s.
> 
> So xpndrs 15-24 are not on 103/99cb, but as spotbeam xpndrs on 103s and 99s.
> 
> ...


There has to be a setting on AIM that eliminates spot beams as every transponder survey I have seen only had CONUS.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

CuttySnark said:


> There has to be a setting on AIM that eliminates spot beams as every transponder survey I have seen only had CONUS.


From the output of peds48's survey:

Options: All nationals with spots


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> From the output of peds48's survey:
> 
> Options: All nationals with spots


Correct, the AIM xpndr survey has both options I understand.

Nationals only or with spots...

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Though it is confusing how the AIM logically list SW1's xpndrs as 1-6 in 103a/1 through 103a/6. 

While the system tables spooling from the satellites confusingly repeats xpndr numbers 3 and 4 for xpndrs 5 and 6.

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> Though it is confusing how the AIM logically list SW1's xpndrs as 1-6 in 103a/1 through 103a/6.
> 
> *While the system tables spooling from the satellites confusingly repeats xpndr numbers 3 and 4 for xpndrs 5 and 6.*
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


SI or AIM's FW ?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> Correct, the AIM xpndr survey has both options I understand.
> 
> Nationals only or with spots...
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


correct

Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> SI or AIM's FW ?


As to which one is confusing?

The SI tables isn't it?...

I don't know why DIRECTV engineers don't sensibly assign xpndr numbers 1-6 to SW1's xpndr channels in the tables, but confusingly repeat the numbers 3 and 4 for what should be 5 and 6.

Thus only xpndrs 1-4 show on the 103(s) screen as active for SW1 when it should logically be 1-6.

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

because SW-1/2 has very complicate huge reconfiguring array of SB tpns ... as you know, TID number is limited in values of unsigned byte, eg total 256 for one net#


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> because SW-1/2 has very complicate huge reconfiguring array of SB tpns ... as you know, TID number is limited in values of unsigned byte, eg total 256 for one net#


Well I understand there are TID number range limitations on any given Net.

But I thought DIRECTV has total freedom to assign any xpndr number to a TID.

So why can't (according to Tom Speer's latest maps) SW1's TID numbers 44 and 45 be simply given a xpndr number of 5. And TID numbers 38 and 39 xpndr number 6?

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm afraid the answer will not given out ..


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HoTat2 said:


> But I thought DIRECTV has total freedom to assign any xpndr number to a TID.


My simple answer to your good question:
DIRECTV has total freedom to assign any xpndr number to a TID.
They have the freedom to assign numbers that do not make sense to us.


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## tomspeer46 (Nov 17, 2011)

This discussion has gotten a little off topic from the original thread. However, the TPN number assignments that now look so baffling, date from when they shifted the transponders that had been on on TPN 5&6 down in frequency so as to not interfere with TPN 9&10 on D12. The reasons are only known for sure by DirecTV, if they even remember why. From our end, figuring out what they had done was a subject of much behind the scenes discussion. I think we are better equipped to figure things like that out, now.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

tomspeer46 said:


> This discussion has gotten a little off topic from the original thread. However, the TPN number assignments that now look so baffling, date from when they shifted the transponders that had been on on TPN 5&6 down in frequency so as to not interfere with TPN 9&10 on D12. The reasons are only known for sure by DirecTV, if they even remember why. From our end, figuring out what they had done was a subject of much behind the scenes discussion. I think we are better equipped to figure things like that out, now.


Yeah understood. ..

It is just strange for DIRECTV to have the AIM firmware programed sensibly for SW1's xpndr numbers, but have it goofy in the SI tables this way.

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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

peds48 said:


> Here is some info on the 3 Reverse Band LNB
> 
> AIM Version: 4.0 Build: 1080
> Db Version: 0040
> ...


Also wonder since the AIM's latest firmware seems to have the 5 as yet undefined CONUS xpndrs for D14 (# 9, 10, 12, 22, and 24) omitted in the xpndr survey. This indicates DIRECTV intends to keep operating D14's CONUS payload in this strange configuration for the forseeable future?

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Directv may not consider it worth it to fiddle with those SI tables for purely aesthetic reasons. Especially if this is seen as temporary - i.e. if our speculation is correct and SW1 is phased out completely and CONUS tpns 1-8 are added on 103ca.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Also wonder since the AIM's latest firmware seems to have the 5 as yet undefined CONUS xpndrs for D14 (# 9, 10, 12, 22, and 24) omitted in the xpndr survey. This indicates DIRECTV intends to keep operating D14's CONUS payload in this strange configuration for the forseeable future?


I still wonder if they aren't doing something weird with those that has to do with 4K or DVB-S2X testing, and just don't want them showing up for some reason.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Seems to me *DVB-S2X* will not use by DTV, but just simple bonding (using in pair) two tpns for 4K tests;
as mentioned many times, the bonding is not necessary for 4K linear channel (where is this one ?)


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> Seems to me *DVB-S2X* will not use by DTV, but just simple bonding (using in pair) two tpns for 4K tests;
> as mentioned many times, the bonding is not necessary for 4K linear channel (where is this one ?)


Bonding isn't necessary for 4K, but we do know for certain Directv will be bonding two transponders to carry three 4K channels - one of the rare times they've actually commented on the technology they'll be using! Maybe not from day one for the first few 4K channels since it wouldn't be necessary and could create logistical issues, but eventually.

The question is whether they are using DVB-S2X to achieve those bonded transponders, since bonding isn't part of the DVB-S2 standard. However Directv is under no obligations to follow standards or use them at all. They could tell Broadcom what they want to do and it would either be added to their mass market tuner chip's capabilities or a custom chip designed for Directv. After all Directv created their own DSS standard which they still use for their MPEG2 SD transponders, and Dish violates the DVB-S standard with the small roll off their turbo transponders implement. DSS support is found in many demodulator chips even though it is a Directv only "standard".


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> DSS support is found in many demodulator chips even though it is a Directv only "standard".


I wouldn't say "found", it's included into few chips because of a demand from DTV and attempting to attract DTV's third party HW mfgs to use them in mass production.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I did a little digging and found a FCC spec sheet posted on the other site by satgirl51 . Since it mentioned modulation compatibility with MxL568, I did a little googling and think maybe what the HR54 uses may not be Broadcom's chip but could be Maxlinear's MxL581 which also supports 8 demodulators. Its timeline would fit with the HR54's, but like Broadcom's 8 tuner chip has no mention of support for bonding and was designed too early to support DVB-S2X.

Whichever it uses, it either has unannounced support for bonding, or that is being handled somehow in software. Since these full spectrum capture / full band capture chips basically work as big DSPs, they are pretty programmable. Not enough to be made to support DVB-S2X, but likely enough to support bonding.


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## twizt3dkitty (Aug 29, 2009)

Scott just posted over at SatGuys that a speculated national launch for reverse 3s is April 8th. Just fyi to all.

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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

twizt3dkitty said:


> Scott just posted over at SatGuys that a speculated national launch for reverse 3s is April 8th. Just fyi to all.


Would Directv's definition for 'national launch' mean it becomes the default LNB in all new installs (once old stock of SWM/SWM13/3D2 is gone) or that some are shipped to each location so they are available if needed?


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

Yes-That what it would mean also -the LNB being released for testing may not be the final one - it's just being tested and the latter LNB's may be modeled after the test market ones - Same but Different MFG's 

Going National Would also mean (all) New 4k installs going forward -


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

WestDC said:


> Yes-That what it would mean also -the LNB being released for testing may not be the final one - it's just being tested and the latter LNB's may be modeled after the test market ones - Same but Different MFG's
> 
> Going National Would also mean (all) New 4k installs going forward -


The HR44 is not going away anytime soon.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

No but if 4K live only comes from the bss satelites then the new lnb will be required. I hope that's what they do. I hate when they don't and then cause bizzare things to happen latter and take for ever to convert when they could have avoided the need to convert in the first place by waiting a few more weeks.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> No but if 4K live only comes from the bss satelites then the new lnb will be required. I hope that's what they do. I hate when they don't and then cause bizzare things to happen latter and take for ever to convert when they could have avoided the need to convert in the first place by waiting a few more weeks.


A national launch where the 3DR becomes the standard for all new installs in April (along with the rumors about Directv launching 4K in mid January being totally wrong) makes it more likely 4K uses reverse band from day one, but I don't think that would be smart.

I don't know how many 4K customers they have now, since there isn't much available there's not much reason to subscribe, but on the other hand there is no "4K fee" today so if you have a 4K TV - especially if it is 4K RVU so you don't even need to ask for a C61K - there's no reason not to have it enabled. All those customers would have to have their LNB replaced between the time the national rollout begins and the time the first 4K broadcasts begin. If they began 4K broadcasts with the Masters, a national launch on April 8th is a bit of a problem since the Masters starts on the *7th* (really the 6th since Directv puts up the Masters channels the day before with the par 3 tournament)

It isn't as though it would be a problem for Directv to contact people down the road when they want to start using reverse band and telling them they need to get their LNB swapped. They could put a crawl on the Ka band 4K channels after they have the reverse band versions up (the firmware could hide the Ka band duplicates if the reverse band ones were available) Isn't that pretty much what they did on the Ku HD channels when they wanted to retire them? Now if they aren't going to start 4K broadcasts until the Summer Olympics, let's say, that would give them enough lead time to get everyone who is signed up for 4K service upgraded.

If this is the national launch of the 3DR only, and the 5DR won't be available then (and there's still no hint of the legacy reverse band LNB) I think requiring it is a bit premature. What about the people who need 119, or have a world direct dish, etc. I think there's a better chance reverse band is used for mirroring 95* (and maybe 119*) content on April 8th than 4K programming.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

And don't forget the Alaska and Hawaii subs. (and others in CONUS that choose to use it) with the 1.2m AK/HI ODU.

What are they supposed to do for Reverse Band?

That dish LNB is only 18v/13v/+tone, legacy type.

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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

WestDC said:


> Yes-That what it would mean also -*the LNB being released for testing may not be the final one *- it's just being tested and the latter LNB's may be modeled after the test market ones - Same but Different MFG's
> 
> Going National Would also mean (all) New 4k installs going forward -


Perhaps you're onto something...


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps you're onto something...


Perhaps - But i never said the Hr44 was going away - I was refering to the LNB used or needed for 4k would not be installed for everyone (NEW) install unless for 4K at first


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

WestDC said:


> Perhaps - But i never said the Hr44 was going away - I was refering to the LNB used or needed for 4k would not be installed for everyone (NEW) install unless for 4K at first


Installing a reverse band LNB would make total sense for new installs that involve 4K, even if they don't use reverse band for 4K at first. That would reduce the amount of rework later.

For new customers getting international packages that require 95 or 119 it wouldn't make sense to install a reverse band LNB "in preparation", only when they have that content mirrored. Since we have a (rumored) date for the national release for the 3DR, we have a target date for that as well.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

WestDC said:


> Perhaps - But i never said the Hr44 was going away - *I was refering to the LNB used or needed for 4k would not be installed for everyone (NEW) install unless for 4K at first*


That's certainly one potential scenario...then again...there are others.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

I see it as two big questions, yet to be answered in these areas.

1) With DIRECTV's obvious shift to SWiM integated type LNBFs for almost all residential installs, what is to be done with subscribers that need the WD service at 95W?

2) Regarding the Reverse Band, how are the MDU and DRE installations to be handled. And how are subs. with the 1.2m AK/HI ODU to receive RB?

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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

How many c61k do you actually think have been installed? I doubt 10k.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> 2) Regarding the Reverse Band, how are the MDU and DRE installations to be handled. And how are subs. with the 1.2m AK/HI ODU to receive RB?


Obviously MDU and other >21 tuner installs will be done with a legacy reverse band LNB. The AK/HI customers will be handled by a 3DR (maybe just legacy and a switch, maybe they'll get a SWM21 type version too) Directv can eliminate the need for that second 119 dish if they mirror the 119 content on reverse band, otherwise they have to stick with the legacy LNB only to allow for connecting the 119 dish. But I think Directv wants to get away from that sort of expense and people in Hawaii who pays a lot for their house don't want the unsightly big dish, let alone two of them!

In fact, if they mirrored all the MPEG2 SD only channels from 101 as well (I wonder how many of those there are...?) and carried the guide data etc. streams somewhere on 99/103 those customers could get by with a Slimline. They only need the big dish because the Ku satellites have weak beams over Hawaii. The Ka/RDBS satellites all have full power over Hawaii so the regular Slimline would be fine if it wasn't for the stuff that is only available on 101.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

Mirroring 101 and 95 in the reverse band makes a lot of sense, in that it would (or at least could) also get a bunch of SD viewers off 101, getting Directv closer to the ability to convert 101 to MPEG4, and get viewers of international channels off legacy and onto SWMs. Of course, it would limit the amount of spectrum available to 4K but wouldn't be a problem until there is considerable growth in 4K providers (and by that time they could possibly be added on 101, if it weren't for the fact that they cannot be received in AK and HI without the bigger dish).


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

bobnielsen said:


> Mirroring 101 and 95 in the reverse band makes a lot of sense, in that it would (or at least could) also get a bunch of SD viewers off 101, getting Directv closer to the ability to convert 101 to MPEG4, and get viewers of international channels off legacy and onto SWMs. Of course, it would limit the amount of spectrum available to 4K but wouldn't be a problem until there is considerable growth in 4K providers (and by that time they could possibly be added on 101, if it weren't for the fact that they cannot be received in AK and HI without the bigger dish).


Mirroring in reverse band won't change anything for SD viewers on 101, since they can't receive reverse band. The only thing this mirroring would help is to simplify new installs.


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## reubenray (Jun 27, 2002)

I will be using the Mover's Plan in March or April. Would it be better to wait until April to get the latest/greatest setup?


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

The only advantage (if it apply's to you) doing it now may get you the upgrade (IF) you are in the Test area Currently - The RB LNB will not go National until linear broadcast Start maybe in March or april of 2016 - Depending on where you move (AREA) the RB LNB may Not even be able to be installed- until -it goes National.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

WestDC said:


> The only advantage (if it apply's to you) doing it now may get you the upgrade (IF) you are in the Test area Currently - The RB LNB will not go National until linear broadcast Start maybe in March or april of 2016 - Depending on where you move (AREA) the RB LNB may Not even be able to be installed- until -it goes National.


Unless you grab one early off ebay or some other of course. ..

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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

I have a question. I have a service call scheduled for tomorrow for another SWM 16 that is on the fritz again. I called the office of the President last night to see if it was possible to get one of the LNBs that supported 21 tuners. They said they had to email the Field Services group and find out. They called me back today and said they had them but that at this time they only supported 13 tuners and in the future there would be a software update that would allow for the 21 tuners. Is this true? They also said it would have to be changed from a service call to a work order for the LNB install. Since I am using 15 tuners, this of course wouldnt work but I grow very tired of the SWM 16 going out every 6-8 months.


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

joshjr said:


> I have a question. I have a service call scheduled for tomorrow for another SWM 16 that is on the fritz again. I called the office of the President last night to see if it was possible to get one of the LNBs that supported 21 tuners. They said they had to email the Field Services group and find out. They called me back today and said they had them but that at this time they only supported 13 tuners and in the future there would be a software update that would allow for the 21 tuners. Is this true? They also said it would have to be changed from a service call to a work order for the LNB install. Since I am using 15 tuners, this of course wouldnt work but I grow very tired of the SWM 16 going out every 6-8 months.


You can order one from Solid signal and hand it to the installer when he/she shows or Cancel the service call and swap the LNB out your self.

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=3D2LNB&d=DIRECTV-21-Tuner-SWM-LNB-for-Slimline-Dishes-(3D2LNB)&q=Directv%20SWM%20lnb


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

joshjr said:


> I have a question. I have a service call scheduled for tomorrow for another SWM 16 that is on the fritz again. I called the office of the President last night to see if it was possible to get one of the LNBs that supported 21 tuners. They said they had to email the Field Services group and find out. They called me back today and said they had them but that at this time they only supported 13 tuners and in the future there would be a software update that would allow for the 21 tuners. Is this true? They also said it would have to be changed from a service call to a work order for the LNB install. Since I am using 15 tuners, this of course wouldnt work but I grow very tired of the SWM 16 going out every 6-8 months.


No, not true ...

That was apparently past erroneous information. As far as known all SWiM capable receivers today can see and use the full tuner counts of any of the newer digital LNBs.

3D1 - 13 tuners max.
3D2 - 21 tuners max.
3D2RB - 21 tuners max. 
5D2RB - 21 tuners max.

And no evidence these numbers will ever change with any future receiver firmware upgrades.

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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> No, not true ...
> 
> That was apparently past erroneous information. As far as known all SWiM capable receivers today can see and use the full tuner counts of any of the newer digital LNBs.
> 
> ...


Well I guess since I need to be certain, I will just take another SWM16 this time and maybe next time there wont be any questions. Sounds like I would want the 3D2RB anyways and have no idea if I would get it. I know I need 15 tuners and would be pissed if they changed my setup for the new LNB and I only had 13 tuners. I just dont understand why they dont know this.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

I just called back to ask them to clarify which model of the LNB it was and why they think it only supports 13 tuners at this time. Its probably going to be more work for someone to change the LNB than it is just the SWM 16 under my house. I can not allow it to be used if it is in fact only 13 tuners. I dont even think it should be allowed in the field for a larger than 13 tuners setup if thats the case.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

joshjr said:


> I just called back to ask them to clarify which model of the LNB it was and why they think it only supports 13 tuners at this time. Its probably going to be more work for someone to change the LNB than it is just the SWM 16 under my house. I can not allow it to be used if it is in fact only 13 tuners. I dont even think it should be allowed in the field for a larger than 13 tuners setup if thats the case.


Here in the LA market they've pretty switched over to the 3D2.

New installs of the 1st generation 3D1 have almost dissappeared now. So I guess I can give DIRECTV credit for that sensible change in policy direction.

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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

I received a return call and was informed that per the engineering team, 13 tuners is the max on those LNBs at this time and that the LNBs are still being tested and are not generally deployed as of yet.


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

Where is your SWM-16 located? inside or outside ? I've been the same one for many years it's located inside -Just asking


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

joshjr said:


> Well I guess since I need to be certain, I will just take another SWM16 this time and maybe next time there wont be any questions. Sounds like I would want the 3D2RB anyways and have no idea if I would get it. I know I need 15 tuners and would be pissed if they changed my setup for the new LNB and I only had 13 tuners. I just dont understand why they dont know this.


Why not just buy the LNB yourself?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-DirecTV-GEN-2-DSWM-SWM3-SWM13-SWM21-21-Tuner-LNB-3D2LNBR0-02-/331808947474?hash=item4d415abd12:g:n48AAOSw~OVW0KUs


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Here in the LA market they've pretty switched over to the 3D2.
> 
> New installs of the 1st generation 3D1 have almost dissappeared now. So I guess I can give DIRECTV credit for that sensible change in policy direction.


I don't think that's a "sensible change in policy direction"...more likely "running out of inventory of 3D1 LNBs".


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

sigma1914 said:


> Why not just buy the LNB yourself?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-DirecTV-GEN-2-DSWM-SWM3-SWM13-SWM21-21-Tuner-LNB-3D2LNBR0-02-/331808947474?hash=item4d415abd12:g:n48AAOSw~OVW0KUs


One reason is because it wont be here for the appointment tomorrow. Secondly, I would be pissed if i swapped everything out and only 13 tuners worked. Maybe next time,.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

I had a 4K install yesterday, he did not change the LNB. I'm assuming at least for a broadcast like the Masters, RB won't be needed. I wonder if I'll need to call for a new LNB or if they'll contact me.

It would have been pointless to ask the installer that was here.


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## Christopher Gould (Jan 14, 2007)

WestDC said:


> Where is your SWM-16 located? inside or outside ? I've been the same one for many years it's located inside -Just asking


My swm-16 has been under my house for a minimum of 3 years, could be more. I have been out of contract for at least a year maybe more. I don't know when the hr34 first came out nationally but I know I was the first in my area to get one.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I get the feeling the new bss 21 tuner lnb will hit every market latter this year.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

WestDC said:


> Where is your SWM-16 located? inside or outside ? I've been the same one for many years it's located inside -Just asking


Outside underneath my house.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Christopher Gould said:


> My swm-16 has been under my house for a minimum of 3 years, could be more. I have been out of contract for at least a year maybe more. I don't know when the hr34 first came out nationally but I know I was the first in my area to get one.


I got mine just after Christmas 2011 from Solid Signal, this was before it had the new UI.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> Here in the LA market they've pretty switched over to the 3D2.
> 
> New installs of the 1st generation 3D1 have almost dissappeared now. So I guess I can give DIRECTV credit for that sensible change in policy direction.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


The installer just called me. Said that they shipped in the new LNB special just for me and that I am the only one in this market to get it. Said his supervisor said that if they downloaded the newest firmware, it would allow me to use the 21 tuners. Guess we will see what happens. I am a little excited about getting it and learning more about it. I know almost every time they come swap the SWM16 they dont hook it back up the same way and overload one side. The Genie can only be on one leg with one other DVR without overloading. This should get interesting. Install should be underway in about a little over an hour.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

joshjr said:


> The installer just called me. Said that they shipped in the new LNB special just for me and that I am the only one in this market to get it. Said his supervisor said that if they downloaded the newest firmware, it would allow me to use the 21 tuners. Guess we will see what happens. I am a little excited about getting it and learning more about it. I know almost every time they come swap the SWM16 they dont hook it back up the same way and overload one side. The Genie can only be on one leg with one other DVR without overloading. This should get interesting. Install should be underway in about a little over an hour.


Ok, keep us posted. ..

But if it's only a 3D1, sorry to say get ready for the 776 over subscribed SWM error messages once you exceed the 13th total tuner count.

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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> Ok, keep us posted. ..
> 
> But if it's only a 3D1, sorry to say get ready for the 776 over subscribed SWM error messages once you exceed the 13th total tuner count.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


So I need to make sure its any of the other models you listed? I know when I requested it, I asked for the 3D2RB. Maybe I will get lucky and that is what they shipped. The Office of the President called me back yesterday and said it was only for 13 tuners after confirming with engineering and that it would require a service request / upgrade to get. I said no so I am a little shocked something was overnighted for them to be installing off a normal service call. Should be interesting.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

joshjr said:


> So I need to make sure its any of the other models you listed? I know when I requested it, I asked for the 3D2RB. Maybe I will get lucky and that is what they shipped. The Office of the President called me back yesterday and said it was only for 13 tuners after confirming with engineering and that it would require a service request / upgrade to get. I said no so I am a little shocked something was overnighted for them to be installing off a normal service call. Should be interesting.


No , that's really just the abbreviated shorthand which they may or may not understand.

The full model numbers you need for your setup are...

WNC 3D2LNBR0-01 listed as "Slimline-3D2 (DSWM2)" in the receiver setup

Or the Reverse Band capable WNC 3D2RBLNBR0-01 listed as "Slimline-3DR (DSWM2)" in the setup.

Both of the above are 2nd generation digital SWM models which have 21 tuner max. capacity.

Stay away from the WNC 3D1LNBR0-01 listed as "Slimline-3DS (DSWM)" in the setup. As that one is the 1st generation digital SWM which is limited to only 13 tuners max.

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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> No , that's really just the abbreviated shorthand which they may or may not understand.
> 
> The full model numbers you need for your setup are...
> 
> ...


Here is what is being added. Looks like it is the correct model number.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Yep, that's one of the correct ones. With Reverse Band to boot. Good show ....

Though I see on the actual production models DIRECTV placed a new sticker on it removing mention of the actual mfr. WNC.

I'm waiting on the 5 LNB version myself, the WNC 5D2RBLNBR0-01 listed as "Slimline-5DR (DSWM2)" in the setup since I need 119W. But no news on it's release and no one on ebay can seem to get their hands on one yet. 

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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

Okay its done. I only have 13 tuners active at the moment so I am not sure it worked 100%. I'll know more on that when I reactivate another owned receiver soon. The only thing that is weird is that I had to have them cancel the service call and do an upgrade. The upgrade was changed to a dish relocation just so they could get the SWM LNB swap on the order. Then apparently his depo got the LNB from another location that had not scanned it to his location yet so he is not able to complete the work order until the supervisor in Springfield gets back in Monday an transfers the equipment to the Joplin location. The only thing that seems odd is that when doing some kind of retest it was failing on 119 which it shouldnt see. He said he thought it was due to the system still showing I had a SWM5 LNB. Guess we'll see after they close out that work order next week.

The only other thing I have noticed so far already is that HBO (501) seems to be running a little laggy. Only station I noticed it on so far. I will have to check it out on another receiver as well. If its just the one receiver that has the issue, I will just reboot it again and see what happens I guess. If what he was saying us true on the LNB I dont know why it wasnt failing on the 110 as well as the 119.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

joshjr said:


> Okay its done. I only have 13 tuners active at the moment so I am not sure it worked 100%. I'll know more on that when I reactivate another owned receiver soon. The only thing that is weird is that I had to have them cancel the service call and do an upgrade. The upgrade was changed to a dish relocation just so they could get the SWM LNB swap on the order. Then apparently his depo got the LNB from another location that had not scanned it to his location yet so he is not able to complete the work order until the supervisor in Springfield gets back in Monday an transfers the equipment to the Joplin location. The only thing that seems odd is that when doing some kind of retest it was failing on 119 which it shouldnt see. He said he thought it was due to the system still showing I had a SWM5 LNB. Guess we'll see after they close out that work order next week.
> 
> The only other thing I have noticed so far already is that HBO (501) seems to be running a little laggy. Only station I noticed it on so far. I will have to check it out on another receiver as well. If its just the one receiver that has the issue, I will just reboot it again and see what happens I guess. If what he was saying us true on the LNB I dont know why it wasnt failing on the 110 as well as the 119.


If the System is showing a SWM5 LNB, you can go into the Repeat Satellite settings and it will discover the correct one automatically. Nothing they do with a workorder or remotely will change this But otherwise a LNB will not cause a channel to be laggy It should show this as the Dish Type "Slimline-3DR (DSWM2)


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

What Compnurd Said! - Just Re-Run Sat Set - They Changed out a SWM5 LNB for a SWM3 LNB - SO the receiver is still showing 119 (it thinks) it still there -Happy Easter!


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Yes, unless you rerun sat setup the receiver will still think it's connected to a 5LNB. It will think the 101 signals are actually also from 110/119, so if there's one of those signals that "fails" the test it will say the 110/119 is failing. My guess is that all the 101 TPs that map to 110 are high enough to get a "pass" on 110.

And since it's a 3D2, there's NO firmware update needed. 

There's so much wrong info floating around DirecTV on this. CSRs, techs, even the "office of the president" it seems. You'll find the info on here a lot more reliable.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

just rerun setup now


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

Just to clarify, this is after rerunning the setup and setting it for the correct LNB setup that 119 shows and fails.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I'd rerun it again myself. And run that on all receivers in the home.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

I also don't think either the receivers or the AIM runs an IV or it's retest on a 5 LNB install for 110W anymore in the CONUS, AK, and HI. Only in PR.

For instance all my 110W levels are at 0 nowadays out here on the west coast.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

joshjr said:


> Just to clarify, this is after rerunning the setup and setting it for the correct LNB setup that 119 shows and fails.


Then Something is wrong. If it is set to that LNB the 119 will not show up for anything I would rerun and make sure it says the correct one.

One quick question. Did they remove your swim 16 when they installed this LNB


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

compnurd said:


> Then Something is wrong. If it is set to that LNB the 119 will not show up for anything I would rerun and make sure it says the correct one.
> One quick question. Did they remove your swim 16 when they installed this LNB


I'll check on it later. I did rerun the setup and he said he removed it and put in an 8 way splitter. Saw the box for the splitter but never saw the switch. If it was in place wouldn't I see errors for 110 & 119?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

joshjr said:


> I'll check on it later. I did rerun the setup and he said he removed it and put in an 8 way splitter. Saw the box for the splitter but never saw the switch. If it was in place wouldn't I see errors for 110 & 119?


If it is still detecting the 16 it may cause issues with seeing the LNB correctly but I am not 100% certain of that. I do know that if it was displaying the 3D2 correctly. You will not see 110 or 119 anymore. You do need to rerun the setup on all boxes


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

joshjr said:


> I'll check on it later. I did rerun the setup and he said he removed it and put in an 8 way splitter. Saw the box for the splitter but never saw the switch. If it was in place wouldn't I see errors for 110 & 119?


I wouldn't worry about those errors. Have you looked at signal strength? Do you see 99cr and 103cr? If you do then you probably don't have signal strength screens for 110 or 119.


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## lzhj9k (Mar 14, 2009)

Going to satellite setup showed the right settings so they were "auto detected" , but you have to "Continue" to verify them

Rerun SetUp on all receivers and remember to "Continue" to Verify/Finalize....


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

David Ortiz said:


> I wouldn't worry about those errors. Have you looked at signal strength? Do you see 99cr and 103cr? If you do then you probably don't have signal strength screens for 110 or 119.[/quot
> 
> 
> compnurd said:
> ...


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

lzhj9k said:


> Going to satellite setup showed the right settings so they were "auto detected" , but you have to "Continue" to verify them
> 
> Rerun SetUp on all receivers and remember to "Continue" to Verify/Finalize....


Did that earlier twice on all receivers. Same error. Guess I'll have to see if the SWM16 was removed but I have every reason to believe.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

If your LNB was switched then the SWM16 can't be in use. If you're still connected to the SWM16 you are still using a legacy LNB.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> If your LNB was switched then the SWM16 can't be in use. If you're still connected to the SWM16 you are still using a legacy LNB.


There is something really out of whack then if he is not seeing the cr screens


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

compnurd said:


> There is something really out of whack then if he is not seeing the cr screens


I agree, it just isn't certain what that is. Either he still has a legacy LNB and is still using the SWM16, or he has the new reverse band LNB installed but the receivers are not wanting to 'forget' their old 5 LNB configuration.

You might want to try disconnecting the coax from a receiver, then entering the settings menu and selecting the 3DR setting. Reconnect the coax after you have selected it but before you hit continue. The receivers try to be smart and figure out what LNB you have, but if they have no coax connection they can't do that so they will let you set them manually to whatever.


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## Billzebub (Jan 2, 2007)

When I check my system info it lists the following dish
Slimline-3DR (DSWM2)
Can someone tell me which LNB I have?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Billzebub said:


> When I check my system info it lists the following dish
> Slimline-3DR (DSWM2)
> Can someone tell me which LNB I have?


A Slimline-3 LNB, woth 2nd generation digital integrated SWM.

Mod. num. WNC 3D2RBLNBR0-01

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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

Looks like on my Genie I am getting some kind of a dish configuration error. Is this where I need to unscrew the coax to change the dish type? it wont let me otherwise. What in the first pic needs changed if I do that?


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

joshjr said:


> Looks like on my Genie I am getting some kind of a dish configuration error. Is this where I need to unscrew the coax to change the dish type? it wont let me otherwise. What in the first pic needs changed if I do that?


The dish type is correct for the picture of the LNB that you posted earlier. I would not re-test, but would just arrow down to continue and let the guide data download. After you get to live tv, check your signal strength. You should see 101, 99 (including 99cr), and 103 (including 103cr). You should not see 110 or 119.


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## mexican-bum (Feb 26, 2006)

I have a first generation swm13 lnb in the Tulsa market and have always got that 119 error,I think it's because SD locals come off 119. System may still think it's required for locals......anyways I have always just continued and have never had a problem.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

I did another reboot and then went through it again. It now does not show 110 or 119 and I can see 99cr and 103cr. I have a 88% on all 5 tuners on 99cr and 0 on all 5 for 103cr. Is that as it should be?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

joshjr said:


> I did another reboot and then went through it again. It now does not show 110 or 119 and I can see 99cr and 103cr. I have a 88% on all 5 tuners on 99cr and 0 on all 5 for 103cr. Is that as it should be?


For 103 yes. Nothing their yet. I also have between 88-90 on my 99. Nothing is on those yet so I wouldn't worry about the levels now


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

Okay thank you David, compnurd and everyone else who helped me. It appears that the 4th reboot seemed to do the charm. Tech Support just kept telling me to change my dish type to #17 or insisted that I had a SL5 LNB. What a mess. I will confirm its correct on the other receivers as well. Only issues I see so far is channel 501 seems to have a little lag to it. I have noticed it several times on different receivers. Only channel I have seen it on so far. If I start seeing this on all or alot of channels, guess I will be going back to the SWM16 ASAP.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

joshjr said:


> Okay thank you David, compnurd and everyone else who helped me. It appears that the 4th reboot seemed to do the charm. Tech Support just kept telling me to change my dish type to #17 or insisted that I had a SL5 LNB. What a mess. I will confirm its correct on the other receivers as well. Only issues I see so far is channel 501 seems to have a little lag to it. I have noticed it several times on different receivers. Only channel I have seen it on so far. If I start seeing this on all or alot of channels, guess I will be going back to the SWM16 ASAP.


You may want to post separately if others having that issue. Switching lnbs would have no effect on that


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I think that's really odd about speed change. I'd wait till
There's another software update for the DVR before I did much about it if it persists. Just doesn't make much sense that it'd be a lnb issue.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

mexican-bum said:


> I have a first generation swm13 lnb in the Tulsa market and have always got that 119 error,*I think it's because SD locals come off 119*. System may still think it's required for locals......anyways I have always just continued and have never had a problem.


you are putting the cart before the horse 

Sats/LNBs/switch/tuners doesn't affecting by your local or international channels (the card is); they are HW base [low level filter] what making a SW/FW filter for accepting channels-tpns-signals.

One way to confuse your system - direct STB to accept wrong choice for LNB/switch models by human intervention. And FW bugs, eventually.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

joshjr said:


> Looks like on my Genie I am getting some kind of a dish configuration error. Is this where I need to unscrew the coax to change the dish type? it wont let me otherwise. What in the first pic needs changed if I do that?


That was an interesting error you were getting "configured dish type does not match order". Maybe Directv's system has some flag in it whether it thinks you have a 5 LNB on your account and that's why you were seeing the error. You said you had dealt with tech support, maybe they changed something in their system to fix that and it finally took, rather than it actually being the '4th reboot' that fixed it.

Anyway, glad you got it squared away.


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## Billzebub (Jan 2, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> No, not true ...
> 
> That was apparently past erroneous information. As far as known all SWiM capable receivers today can see and use the full tuner counts of any of the newer digital LNBs.
> 
> ...





Billzebub said:


> When I check my system info it lists the following dish
> Slimline-3DR (DSWM2)
> Can someone tell me which LNB I have?





HoTat2 said:


> A Slimline-3 LNB, woth 2nd generation digital integrated SWM.
> 
> Mod. num. WNC 3D2RBLNBR0-01
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


Thanks, but I'm confused by all of this. Does my LNB match up with any of the ones listed here? If it makes any difference I am currently running 9 tuners from this LNB and I do receive 99(cr) and 103(cr) on my HR 54.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Billzebub said:


> Thanks, but* I'm confused by all of this.* Does my LNB match up with any of the ones listed here? If it makes any difference I am currently running 9 tuners from this LNB and I do receive 99(cr) and 103(cr) on my HR 54.


It's just three different notations (per your quotas):
- in papers and releases
- on DVR's setup screen
- on a LNBF's label

Just read the letters as:
- 3: number of sats
- D: digital
- 1 or 2: generations - 1:13 tuners, 2 - 21 tuners
- R*: reverse band support*


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Billzebub said:


> Thanks, but I'm confused by all of this. Does my LNB match up with any of the ones listed here? If it makes any difference I am currently running 9 tuners from this LNB and I do receive 99(cr) and 103(cr) on my HR 54.


Yes, yours is the 3 LNB Reverse Band capable 3D2RB that you quoted in my post above. It can support up to 21 tuners and receive the new 17.3-17.7 GHz Reverse Band. That is to say it can receive on three bands. Ka, Ku, and RDBS.

The full model number on it should be the WNC 3D2RBLNBR0-01.

Note: Though I've been informed there are actually two more 3 LNB Reverse Band models coming of which one is undergoing field testing now and will soon be distributed. That one is by PBI (or Eagle Aspen). The other is from an as yet unspecified mfr.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Billzebub (Jan 2, 2007)

P Smith said:


> It's just three different notations (per your quotas):
> - in papers and releases
> - on DVR's setup screen
> - on a LNBF's label
> ...


*


HoTat2 said:



Yes, yours is the 3 LNB Reverse Band capable 3D2RB that you quoted in my post above. It can support up to 21 tuners and receive the new 17.3-17.7 GHz Reverse Band. That is to say it can receive on three bands. Ka, Ku, and RDBS.

The full model number on it should be the WNC 3D2RBLNBR0-01.

Note: Though I've been informed there are actually two more 3 LNB Reverse Band models coming of which one is undergoing field testing now and will soon be distributed. That one is by PBI (or Eagle Aspen). The other is from an as yet unspecified mfr.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Thank you both for your help*


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

joshjr said:


> Okay thank you David, compnurd and everyone else who helped me. It appears that the 4th reboot seemed to do the charm. Tech Support just kept telling me to change my dish type to #17 or insisted that I had a SL5 LNB. What a mess. I will confirm its correct on the other receivers as well. Only issues I see so far is channel 501 seems to have a little lag to it. I have noticed it several times on different receivers. Only channel I have seen it on so far. If I start seeing this on all or alot of channels, guess I will be going back to the SWM16 ASAP.


I feel certain that I read in a thread several months ago that a receiver was not choosing the right LNB / dish and the problem was finally figured out that one of the receivers on the system still had the old non SWM setup in it. This was solved by disconnecting all of the receivers except for the Genie, set it up and then connect each of the receivers remaining one at a time.


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## twizt3dkitty (Aug 29, 2009)

I know this thread is old, and I'm suprised that no Tech answered this so I will. Those x's are not an actual failure, just an error. Read the bottom that says dish configuration does not match order. That means your account in our computer system still shows you have a kaku5 lnb and a swm16, but physically have the rb3. The only way to correct this is to have a tech bypass the system on a work order by adding an analog swm3, then a Reverseband 3 to remove the virtual swm3. Then reauthorize all irds. You can try to call dtv to fix it. But I'm pretty sure you need iss to fix, which can only be accessed by techs. Call in and say "yes hello, will you please load my account then click on the equipment tab in seibel, remove the kaku lnb and swm16, then add a reverse band 3, and by the way reverse band 3 can be found under the digital swm product name" then reauthorize everything. Good luck . And peds... I'm disappointed you didn't chime in here a while ago....

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

I actually haven't heard from peds in a while ...

Hope all is well with him ...

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## twizt3dkitty (Aug 29, 2009)

I'll text him later, it's busy season

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

Sort of late to the game here, but when I had my HR54 installed, (I already have a SWM setup) due to having more than 8 tuners the installer put this LNB on. So is this the latest and greatest? The installer said it could handle 13 tuners, but the thread seems to indicate it is actually 21. Not that it matters on the tuner count, just wondering if this was the newest version.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

That is the latest and greatest. And yes it can handle 21 tuners, but indications are it is being limited to 13 in software for various reasons that aren't completely clear. I wouldn't worry about it unless you are looking to add something that would put you over 13.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

poppo said:


> Sort of late to the game here, but when I had my HR54 installed, (I already have a SWM setup) due to having more than 8 tuners the installer put this LNB on. So is this the latest and greatest? The installer said it could handle 13 tuners, but the thread seems to indicate it is actually 21. Not that it matters on the tuner count, just wondering if this was the newest version.


you can easily see how many tuners it supports by going to the INFO & TEST and selecting MORE INFO then scroll halfway down the page.

Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

poppo said:


> Sort of late to the game here, but when I had my HR54 installed, (I already have a SWM setup) due to having more than 8 tuners the installer put this LNB on. So is this the latest and greatest? The installer said it could handle 13 tuners, but the thread seems to indicate it is actually 21. Not that it matters on the tuner count, just wondering if this was the newest version.


You must have had a 4K upgrade. ...

Yes that is a Reverse Band capable 3-LNB type (Thus the meaning of the "RB" in the model number) which for some reason, no one is really sure, is currently limited to only 13 tuner max. support.

The non-RB capable "3D2LNBR0-01" (or -02) has 21 tuner max. support.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> You must have had a 4K upgrade. ...
> 
> Yes that is a Reverse Band capable 3-LNB type (Thus the meaning of the "RB" in the model number) which for some reason, no one is really sure, is currently limited to only 13 tuner max. support.
> 
> ...


it looks to me that the tuner quantity depends as to what type of receivers are connected to the LNB. I have seen recently a system with an HR54 and minis displaying in the INFO MENU 21 tuners, while same LNB reporting 13 tuners with other receivers connected on a different system.

Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

peds48 said:


> you can easily see how many tuners it supports by going to the INFO & TEST and selecting MORE INFO then scroll halfway down the page.


Thanks. I never noticed you could scroll down on that page (HR54 is still new to me). It does say reverse band and SWM CH Count 22 (not sure why it says 22 and not 21). But tuner count is not really an issue, just was curious since I only saw that exact model number in a couple of posts.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> You must have had a 4K upgrade. ...


Actually I didn't. I ordered a Genie and the installer had a HR54 on the truck. And since at that point I was going to have the HR54 and 3 HR20s (11 tuners), the installer decided it was just easier to swap to that LNB than mess with anything else. He did sort of grumble about not supposed to be using it, but it was a 30 second solution for him.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

peds48 said:


> it looks to me that the tuner quantity depends as to what type of receivers are connected to the LNB. I have seen recently a system with an HR54 and minis displaying in the INFO MENU 21 tuners, while same LNB reporting 13 tuners with other receivers connected on a different system.


And that makes perfect sense, based on what you've seen and the message people have reported. But why is poppo seeing 21 tuners when he has three HR20s? Not sure I understand why something as old as an HR20 doesn't trigger the software to limit the tuner count, but some newer equipment would. They're all running the same software, and except the H25 they all work in legacy mode so the tuner obviously can handle the full 950-2150 MHz range (I'll bet it can in the H25 too, but there's no way to prove that)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

poppo said:


> Actually I didn't. I ordered a Genie and the installer had a HR54 on the truck. And since at that point I was going to have the HR54 and 3 HR20s (11 tuners), the installer decided it was just easier to swap to that LNB than mess with anything else. He did sort of grumble about not supposed to be using it, but it was a 30 second solution for him.


Shouldn't that be 14 tuners total?

"HR54" and "3 HR20s?"

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## Troch2002 (May 8, 2016)

HoTat2 said:


> Shouldn't that be 14 tuners total?
> 
> "HR54" and "3 HR20s?"
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


HR54 5 Tuners
3 HR20s 6 tuners
=11


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Troch2002 said:


> HR54 5 Tuners
> 3 HR20s 6 tuners
> =11


Gotcha. ..

Temporary brain-lock

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> And that makes perfect sense, based on what you've seen and the message people have reported. But why is poppo seeing 21 tuners when he has three HR20s? Not sure I understand why something as old as an HR20 doesn't trigger the software to limit the tuner count, but some newer equipment would. They're all running the same software, and except the H25 they all work in legacy mode so the tuner obviously can handle the full 950-2150 MHz range (I'll bet it can in the H25 too, but there's no way to prove that)


I wonder what his hr20s say...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

poppo said:


> Thanks. I never noticed you could scroll down on that page (HR54 is still new to me). It does say reverse band and SWM CH Count 22 (not sure why it says 22 and not 21). But tuner count is not really an issue, just was curious since I only saw that exact model number in a couple of posts.


Any chance you can check all your hr20s and let us know if they also all say 22 or something different.

Oh and it's 22 because technically that's what it is. But one is dedicated to the guide data so it's 21 tuners to get satellite channels and 1 to get guide data.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> And that makes perfect sense, based on what you've seen and the message people have reported. But why is poppo seeing 21 tuners when he has three HR20s? Not sure I understand why something as old as an HR20 doesn't trigger the software to limit the tuner count, but some newer equipment would. They're all running the same software, and except the H25 they all work in legacy mode so the tuner obviously can handle the full 950-2150 MHz range (I'll bet it can in the H25 too, but there's no way to prove that)


Oh well, I'm confused on this 13 tuner limitation issue for the RB LNBs again ..

Don't know whether to try the RB 5-LNB or not, assuming I can ever find one (need 15 tuners here. HR54 and 5 HR24s).

Still too much contradictory information on this.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Any chance you can check all your hr20s and let us know if they also all say 22 or something different.
> 
> Oh and it's 22 because technically that's what it is. But one is dedicated to the guide data so it's 21 tuners to get satellite channels and 1 to get guide data.


HR20s say the same thing - SL3 LNB, Reverse Band, SWM CH Count 22

FWIW, I had asked the installer if I needed to change the satellite settings on the HR20s (since my previous LNB was the 5 sat SWM version) and he said it should work as is, and he was not sure if the HR20 had the update to select the correct one. But as soon as I went to the sat setup screen on the HR20s, it had already selected the correct one. This seems to go along with something I read in this thread or another one where all you have to do is reboot, and the DVR will automatically select the correct one.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

So here's the question for all people with this lnb... what receivers do you have if it says 13 and not 22? I wouldn't be surprised if the 21-23 and all the SD receivers and the h20 had issues and couldn't be used with that lnb in 21 mode.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

dpeters11 said:


> I got mine just after Christmas 2011 from Solid Signal, this was before it had the *new* UI.


New? It is the same UI. They just changed it from SD to HD without even changing the text.


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## skinnyJM (Nov 19, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> So here's the question for all people with this lnb... what receivers do you have if it says 13 and not 22? I wouldn't be surprised if the 21-23 and all the SD receivers and the h20 had issues and couldn't be used with that lnb in 21 mode.


HR44-500 and R22 (w/HD)-100 show same tuner count (22).


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

What you have is RB LNB - that now supports 22 tuners (21) = 1 For the guide -- However When D* adds more 4K Channels and changes the way they transmit them if you have a RB lnb at that time you will need another Dish to keep all the receivers you have or Lose those as the Limit of the RB LNB will be set at 13 tuners.

If you don not GO 4k You can use 22 tuners If you change out the LNB to a Newer Swm LNB that supports 22 Tuners as is NONE RB 3d2lnbR0-02

NOTE RB means Reverse Band


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

WestDC said:


> What you have is RB LNB - that now supports 22 tuners (21) = 1 For the guide -- However When D* adds more 4K Channels and changes the way they transmit them if you have a RB lnb at that time you will need another Dish to keep all the receivers you have or Lose those as the Limit of the RB LNB will be set at 13 tuners.
> 
> If you don not GO 4k You can use 22 tuners If you change out the LNB to a Newer Swm LNB that supports 22 Tuners as is NONE RB 3d2lnbR0-02


Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but are you saying that the 3D2RBLNBR0-01 LNB that I have now, currently supports 21 tuners, but once DirecTV starts broadcasting more 4K, that the limit will be changed to 13 even if you are not using 4K? Or are saying that only if you use 4K then the limit will be 13? Your second paragraph is what is confusing me.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

poppo said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but are you saying that the 3D2RBLNBR0-01 LNB that I have now, currently supports 21 tuners, but once DirecTV starts broadcasting more 4K, that the limit will be changed to 13 even if you are not using 4K? Or are saying that only if you use 4K then the limit will be 13? Your second paragraph is what is confusing me.


The first as I understand it ...

Once 4K programming starts proliferating and moves to the Reverse Band, the max. supported tuner count on the RB capable LNBs is supposed drop to 13 possibly due to the need to permanently set aside 8 SWiM channels for channel bonding purposes.

Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I don't know, this is hard to really dissect since we don't know that this isn't an issue with some receivers causing this limit. As I recall, they are saying to only install it as a 13 tuner lnb and not acknowledging it will ever do 21.

Why wouldn't it just be said, ok, you can do 21 channels or 13 if they are 4k? I think there is just more to it...

I also wonder what will happen to this lnb when we see the next generation of stuff.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> The first as I understand it ...
> 
> Once 4K programming starts proliferating and moves to the Reverse Band, the max. supported tuner count on the RB capable LNBs is supposed drop to 13 possibly due to the need to permanently set aside 8 SWiM channels for channel bonding purposes.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


could you ask the question your "anon" source ?

as to 13 vs 21, it could be FW variation as new LNBF require to implement cmds extension to control different Gen [1or2] of the DLNB


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> could you ask the question your "anon" source ? ...


I can try, but again he's been retired for over 2 1/2 years and specifically said the Reverse Band stuff "is after his time" so it may be something he would have to ask his old contacts there to find out.

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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

RB is new, but R&D of new DLNB started a few years ago, perhaps he did participate in drawing specs for it


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> The first as I understand it ...
> 
> Once 4K programming starts proliferating and moves to the Reverse Band, the max. supported tuner count on the RB capable LNBs is supposed drop to 13 possibly due to the need to permanently set aside 8 SWiM channels for channel bonding purposes.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk


This seems to be along the line of what's going on.
The 7 tuner Genie was marked as 5 tuner and this all seems to do with the up coming "live" 4K, where tuners get bonded for increased bandwidth and the narrower digital SWiM channels look to need to do the same.

This is just a "wag" but looks to make sense.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

It seems to make sense but is sort of the opposite of what was said earlier in the thread. There it said 13 tuners were currently enabled and later it might be opened up to 21.

OTOH, why would they need to permanently set aside 8 channels UNLESS you actually had 4K on your account?

In any case I have no plans to get 4K programming any time soon, and won't be going over 13 tuners either. I am just more curious about what is going on than needing any of it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

poppo said:


> OTOH, why would they need to permanently set aside 8 channels UNLESS you actually had 4K on your account?


It "might be" because the firmware requires it and to have one version for 4K and another for non 4K isn't going to fly.

On the other hand, perhaps it can simply be done by the LNB, where those with the RB get bonded and those without don't. :shrug:


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

If that's all true, we are looking at 8 4K channels and 5 Hi Definition channels at one time possible off this lnb. So I'll dream about the next genie being able to tune all that by itself. I could handle a 13 tuner instead of a 16 tuner (hopper3) DVR...


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> If that's all true, we are looking at 8 4K channels and 5 Hi Definition channels at one time possible off this lnb. So I'll dream about the next genie being able to tune all that by itself. I could handle a 13 tuner instead of a 16 tuner (hopper3) DVR...


I just find this way too limiting and a weird combination to permanently seal off 8 SWiM channels that way. As this means a future pending Genie or gateway which can receive up to 8 4K bonded channels and only 5 regular HD ones.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Well 13 channels at any one time from any kind of source...


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> It "might be" because the firmware requires it and to have one version for 4K and another for non 4K isn't going to fly.
> 
> On the other hand, perhaps it can simply be done by the LNB, where those with the RB get bonded and those without don't. :shrug:


Since the DVR reports the SWM Serial number and Firmware version, I would think it would be as simple as - No 4K on account, leave it alone, 4K on account, update the LNB.

I guess I am just having a hard time thinking they would neuter all of the 21 channel LNBs and possibly have to replace them if someone did not have 4K, but has more than 13 tuners. Or if someone cancels 4K and adds more tuners. It appears they made the DVRs smart enough to now auto configure to the LNB attached, I don't see how they could not have it auto configure the LNB depending on your service.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

poppo said:


> Since the DVR reports the SWM Serial number and Firmware version, I would think it would be as simple as - No 4K on account, leave it alone, 4K on account, update the LNB.


I don't think DirecTV keeps track of SWM serial numbers on your account, you can just purchase them online on sites like Solid Signal without telling DirecTV. Even if they collected that information when the receiver "phones home", if none of your receivers are internet or phone line connected, they would have no way of knowing.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

KyL416 said:


> I don't think DirecTV keeps track of SWM serial numbers on your account, you can just purchase them online on sites like Solid Signal without telling DirecTV. Even if they collected that information when the receiver "phones home", if none of your receivers are internet or phone line connected, they would have no way of knowing.


They don't need to keep track of it. My point was that the receiver knows what firmware it has and what your subscription package is. All it has to do is update or not update the LNB depending on whether or not you have 4K on your account. The SN might come in handy if a certain feature will only work with a certain SN range. DirecTV does not need to know what you have, but again, the receiver would know, and could simply pop up an error message if it was not in the correct range.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I don't believe they have ever updated a simw firmware in the field ever. I'm not even convinced they can. I believe the issue is the firmware on the boxes... I think that's what determines what channels it sets aside for things. And I wonder if 4K is active it might be set up so that certain freq are used for bonded swim channels...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

poppo said:


> All it has to do is......


I've thought that many times, but I'm not the coders nor do I know their priorities.

To the best of my knowledge, DirecTV has never admitted to 21 tuners.

All the feedback from contacts have "always" been 13.

Testers/users were the ones who found 21 tuners

I've wondered why the hardware is there to support more than 13.
It all may simply be a build [testing] what the RB needs.

I normally have been able to see/read "the finger prints" and get an idea of where they're going.

The RB has always required more inputs than the four of the non RB.

The LNB with the DSWiM was the first release.

The standalone DSWiM seem to be a real kludge from what I've heard from someone who's seen one, as it requires an LNB with 6 outputs.

I don't write code, nor do I know how to package all of it on a 1 meg chip.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I don't believe they have ever updated a simw firmware in the field ever. I'm not even convinced they can. I believe the issue is the firmware on the boxes... I think that's what determines what channels it sets aside for things. And I wonder if 4K is active it might be set up so that certain freq are used for bonded swim channels...


It wouldn't be "frequencies" but inputs from the LNB

LNB "firmware" could only be changed with a chip change [EPROM like], so you're right they've never been changed in the field.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I don't believe they have ever updated a simw firmware in the field ever. I'm not even convinced they can. I believe the issue is the firmware on the boxes... I think that's what determines what channels it sets aside for things. And I wonder if 4K is active it might be set up so that certain freq are used for bonded swim channels...


Ok, then if that is the case then that even makes it even easier. You have 4K, your receiver is configured accordingly. If you don't just leave it alone.

Of course I don't know it anyone has actually tried to see if these LNBs are actually outputting more than 13 channels. Mainly we are just going by what the DVR is reporting.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Actually, I'd say it differently... If you're have say a genie hr54 that will use up to seven swim channels when two are 4K but only 5 if it's just Hi Definition, then call the DVR a seven tuner DVR for counting purposes in the system. That way it has nothing to do with the swim itself, you are just saying how many swim channels the DVR might actually use when making your tuner count for a system.

Since they don't appear to be doing that, it seems like it may be something else.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

Ok, let me try to explain it differently. Let's say I have a HR54 (5 usable tuners), and 5 HR20s (10 tuners). Total 15 tuners and no plans to go 4K. So the first question is - will this LNB actually support this configuration now? If so, then it looks like the 21 tuners are actually currently available. However if it doesn't work, that means that 13 actually is currently the limit and the rest are already reserved, regardless of what the DVR says. So let's say it does work, but then they do something later to limit it to 13 as someone suggested. Now what are you going to do? Are you going to be forced to give up a DVR or add another dish?

Again, I don't really care as I won't exceed 13 tuners, nor do I plan to pay for 4K anytime soon. I am just curious about the whole "master plan".


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

poppo said:


> Ok, let me try to explain it differently. Let's say I have a HR54 (5 usable tuners), and 5 HR20s (10 tuners). Total 15 tuners and no plans to go 4K. So the first question is - will this LNB actually support this configuration now? If so, then it looks like the 21 tuners are actually currently available. However if it doesn't work, that means that 13 actually is currently the limit and the rest are already reserved, regardless of what the DVR says. So let's say it does work, but then they do something later to limit it to 13 as someone suggested. Now what are you going to do? Are you going to be forced to give up a DVR or add another dish?
> 
> Again, I don't really care as I won't exceed 13 tuners, nor do I plan to pay for 4K anytime soon. I am just curious about the whole "master plan".


Truth is we don't know. But I don't see them being able to limit the lnb in a firmware upgrade of the lnb so I think the DVR firmware would be the cause of issues.

Again I think what's going to happen is 4K receivers will account for more swim channels in a system than the number of channels it can tune at one time. I dont think you'll just suddenly see an issue unless you have an hr54 and a total count of more than 13 tuners today. Because it's the only unit that could suddenly take two more tuners... and even then since it's two more... I'd think you'd be ok with up to a system with 19 tuners today.

I really think this points to a 4K unit that can tune up to five or more 4K channels at once...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> So here's the question for all people with this lnb... what receivers do you have if it says 13 and not 22? I wouldn't be surprised if the 21-23 and all the SD receivers and the h20 had issues and couldn't be used with that lnb in 21 mode.


The H20 hasn't had a firmware update since Sept 2013, so it can't even handle 13 tuner DSWM - it only understands old school 8 tuner analog SWM. I don't know when the D* and R* series were last updated since the historical information on redh was removed, but I'm willing to bet the same is true for them.

So I don't think it is a question of having SD receivers or H20s that trigger a drop from 22 to 13. If there are people who are seeing a drop to 13, it must be with H21+ and HR20+ because those are the only ones that can even handle DSWM at all.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> I've wondered why the hardware is there to support more than 13.
> It all may simply be a build [testing] what the RB needs.


The chip they're using in the reverse band LNB supports 24 tuners, and the chip used in the DSWM13 switch and original SWM13 LNB supported 20, so the hardware has always supported more tuners than were usable by the receivers. Stuart (or was it you?) said the tuner limit for the DSWM13 in loop thru DRE was related to DECA loss, but it is a mystery why use in a LNB kept the same 13 tuner limit, since the DSWM chips are able to handle and the receivers are able to tune the full 950-2150 MHz range. It appears to be a software limit imposed by Directv for reasons unknown.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

nobody remember what was post last year... 

there was a report from real customer config about taking more then 13 channels (18?) from DLNB Gen2
and we did discuss how DLNB Gen1 and Gen2 report to STB's FW requests during a negotiation - there is basic set and extended set of cmds


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> The chip they're using in the reverse band LNB supports 24 tuners, and the chip used in the DSWM13 switch and original SWM13 LNB supported 20, so the hardware has always supported more tuners than were usable by the receivers. Stuart (or was it you?) said the tuner limit for the DSWM13 in loop thru DRE was related to DECA loss, but it is a mystery why use in a LNB kept the same 13 tuner limit, since the DSWM chips are able to handle and the receivers are able to tune the full 950-2150 MHz range. It appears to be a software limit imposed by Directv for reasons unknown.


The DRE had other limits, and could have handled one or two more nodes.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

poppo said:


> . So let's say it does work, but then they do something later to limit it to 13 as someone suggested. Now what are you going to do? Are you going to be forced to give up a DVR or add another dish?
> 
> .


Nope, no need to give a DVR or install a second dish, you would get a 4 port LNB with an external SWM switch. With this set up your dish can support almost a limitless amount of tuners.

Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

peds48 said:


> Nope, no need to give a DVR or install a second dish, you would get a 4 port LNB with an external SWM switch. With this set up your dish can support almost a limitless amount of tuners.
> 
> Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk


A solution that would work, but takes a step backward. At some point they are no longer going to support/install legacy LNBs and external SWMs.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

poppo said:


> A solution that would work, but takes a step backward. At some point they are no longer going to support/install legacy LNBs and external SWMs.


Except for MDU, hotel, and lodging solutions of course...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

poppo said:


> A solution that would work, but takes a step backward. At some point they are no longer going to support/install legacy LNBs and external SWMs.


I completely disagree. I believe they will
Always support those things but the amount they will need is going to continue to shrink over time. But it'll still be needed for larger systems. Both residential and commercial.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Except for MDU, hotel, and lodging solutions of course...
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk





inkahauts said:


> I completely disagree. I believe they will
> Always support those things but the amount they will need is going to continue to shrink over time. But it'll still be needed for larger systems. Both residential and commercial.


They wouldn't be working on a "legacy" RB LNB otherwise.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

poppo said:


> Again, I don't really care as I won't exceed 13 tuners, nor do I plan to pay for 4K anytime soon. I am just curious about the whole "master plan".


As I've posted, I don't write code, "but" IIRC there are modules or blocks of code and you seem to think blocks used for the SWiM/LNB can also be addressed by the access card/accounts info blocks.

"I suspect" that it can't as it's much simpler/easier to have the number of SWiM channels & tuners be controlled in the block(s) for the type of dish selected. There is no reason [currently] for that part of the code to "look at" the account information.
The account information would be addressing a different part of the code for which channels are displayed [verses tuned to].


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> As I've posted, I don't write code, "but" IIRC there are modules or blocks of code *and you seem to think blocks used for the SWiM/LNB can also be addressed by the access card/accounts info blocks.*
> 
> "I suspect" that it can't as it's much simpler/easier to have the number of SWiM channels & tuners be controlled in the block(s) for the type of dish selected. There is no reason [currently] for that part of the code to "look at" the account information.
> The account information would be addressing a different part of the code for which channels are displayed [verses tuned to].


Maybe we are talking about two different things., But the code is already there to "decide" what to do if are authorized to watch a particular channel. If I try to tune to HBO for example, but I don't subscribe to it, I get a 771. So I don't see why it would be so difficult for the receiver to know whether or not you are authorized for 4K channels. If you are, then it does action A, if you aren't, it does action B.

As I noted earlier, it now appears that the receives can auto configure for the correct LNB just by rebooting after a change in LNB type. No reason to think it cant' also auto configure other things based on the LNB detected and what you are authorized to receive.

But this is the company that won't give people an option to turn off the screen saver, or remember the sort order of the playlist after a reboot, so why should they do anything else that would be simple?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> As I've posted, I don't write code, "but" IIRC there are modules or blocks of code and you seem to think blocks used for the SWiM/LNB can also be addressed by the access card/accounts info blocks.
> 
> "I suspect" that it can't as it's much simpler/easier to have the number of SWiM channels & tuners be controlled in the block(s) for the type of dish selected. There is no reason [currently] for that part of the code to "look at" the account information.
> The account information would be addressing a different part of the code for which channels are displayed [verses tuned to].


I agree. I don't see any reason why Directv would want the number of tuners presented to have to do with account type.

They can make things dependent on account type if they really want to though. I don't get exactly the same menus / behavior on my receivers as a residential customer does (i.e. energy saver / screensaver)


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Yep, I think that they are just going to mark boxes as having x amount of tuners if the account doesn't have 4K or y amount of tuners that have 4K and they figure they might as well make people count tuners on an install by the latter... and that their are some swim receivers that can't use more than 13 channels as well. So go with lowest common denominator. 

I wonder if the next generation will be unhooked from the past and therefore these lnbs will be considered 13 tuner for legacy and 21 for new. And no mixing old gear with new gear... supported anyway...


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> I wonder if the next generation will be unhooked from the past and therefore these lnbs will be considered 13 tuner for legacy and 21 for new. And no mixing old gear with new gear... supported anyway...


I highly doubt they'd not allow mixing old and new hardware. That would be a giant departure from how Directv has done things in the past, and would mean they could get never get full usable life out of today's hardware.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

poppo said:


> Maybe we are talking about two different things., But the code is already there to "decide" what to do if are authorized to watch a particular channel. If I try to tune to HBO for example, but I don't subscribe to it, I get a 771.


I don't think I got 771, but instead either not authorized or call DirecTV to add HBO.

I believe we are talking about two different things.
I see a "front & back" that aren't connected.
The front talks to the LNB & selects how tuners act.
The back says what video is displayed on the screen [or message to subscribe to]

"Seems to me" the easiest way to not worry about 4K is to not use the RB LNB, "done"


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> I highly doubt they'd not allow mixing old and new hardware. That would be a giant departure from how Directv has done things in the past, and would mean they could get never get full usable life out of today's hardware.


They do try to be backward compatible, but like with the change to analog SWiM, not all old hardware worked.
Going to digital SWiM is also leaving some old hardware behind which came up with 13 or 21 tuner LNBs

The HR54 & RB LNB is where DirecTV is departing from older systems.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

poppo said:


> Maybe we are talking about two different things., But the code is already there to "decide" what to do if are authorized to watch a particular channel. If I try to tune to HBO for example, but I don't subscribe to it, I get a 771. So I don't see why it would be so difficult for the receiver to know whether or not you are authorized for 4K channels. If you are, then it does action A, if you aren't, it does action B.
> 
> As I noted earlier, it now appears that the receives can auto configure for the correct LNB just by rebooting after a change in LNB type. No reason to think it cant' also auto configure other things based on the LNB detected and what you are authorized to receive.
> 
> But this is the company that won't give people an option to turn off the screen saver, or remember the sort order of the playlist after a reboot, so why should they do anything else that would be simple?


Just for accuracy. You don't get a 771 if you are not subscribed. You get a 721.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

Yeah, my mistake. I had just been posting in the rain fade thread and had 771 on the brain.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> ...
> 
> "Seems to me" the easiest way to not worry about 4K is to not use the RB LNB, "done"


Ageed, except for the point that DIRECTV didn't develop a 5 LNB version of the non-RB 3D2LNB for those (like me) who need 119W. 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> Ageed, except for the point that DIRECTV didn't develop a 5 LNB version of the non-RB 3D2LNB for those (like me) who need 119W.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


I still don't get it. The 5 RB LNB is no different then it's sibling the 3 RB LNB. The only difference is that no one has tested it with more than 13 tuners. But if texasbrit has his working with 18, I don't see why your would not work either.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

peds48 said:


> I still don't get it. The 5 RB LNB is no different then it's sibling the 3 RB LNB. The only difference is that no one has tested it with more than 13 tuners. But if texasbrit has his working with 18, I don't see why your would not work either.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think hes worried about the future and if they will someone how knock it down to max out at 13. I don't see that happening myself. I think this is all going to be in the receiver end.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> I highly doubt they'd not allow mixing old and new hardware. That would be a giant departure from how Directv has done things in the past, and would mean they could get never get full usable life out of today's hardware.


imagine this... a 14 tuner DVR. That can do 7 4K streams. So realistically it's got 21 tuners inside it seven of which are for bonding.

That'd max out a 21 tuner lnb... just sayin if that where to happen then there wouldn't be a need to worry about combining with older equipment. No room on the lnb no matter how you look at it.

I haven't looked lately but what's the current configuration of tuner chips for receivers on the market?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> They do try to be backward compatible, but like with the change to analog SWiM, not all old hardware worked.
> Going to digital SWiM is also leaving some old hardware behind which came up with 13 or 21 tuner LNBs
> 
> The HR54 & RB LNB is where DirecTV is departing from older systems.


Well they're already planning to leave all the MPEG2 SD only hardware behind in 2019, so the only real wildcard IMHO is the H20. I think it is reasonable to assume the H20 be left behind also - lack of DECA support, still on the old SD interface, firmware not updated for three years now...it is kind of the odd man out.

Not sure why they'd want leave behind the HR2x and newer models of H2x though, since they support reverse band LNBs currently. It could always be some non-technical reason, of couse, for example wanting to limit the avenues for account sharing.

I'm curious why you think the HR54 is a departure from older systems, i.e versus the HR44 from which it has precious few differences?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> I'm curious why you think the HR54 is a departure from older systems, i.e versus the HR44 from which it has precious few differences?


DUH, it supports 4k recording [though doesn't playback]


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> imagine this... a 14 tuner DVR. That can do 7 4K streams. So realistically it's got 21 tuners inside it seven of which are for bonding.
> 
> That'd max out a 21 tuner lnb... just sayin if that where to happen then there wouldn't be a need to worry about combining with older equipment. No room on the lnb no matter how you look at it.
> 
> I haven't looked lately but what's the current configuration of tuner chips for receivers on the market?


AFAIK 8 is still the most satellite tuners on a chip. I could see Directv dropping two of those into a receiver and supporting it as an "8 tuner" DVR, using an SoC providing part of the rest of the system with a single tuner that would serve as the network tuner. Having those 8 "hidden" tuners only used for bonded 4K channels would provide a possible explanation for the 13/21 business. It would also leave 5 tuners unused on the reverse band LNB for connecting older stuff (one Genie, or a couple DVRs and a receiver, etc.)


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> DUH, it supports 4k recording [though doesn't playback]


So do the HR34 & HR44. Those handled recording 4K channels during testing without issue, but Directv decided to limit it to only the HR54 when 4K went "live".

I suspect the only reason is because the HR54 had the two 'extra' tuners (due to using an 8 tuner chip instead of two 3 tuner chips like the HR34 & HR44) that would allow it to still be a "5" tuner DVR once bonded transponders were used for 4K channels. There isn't any special hardware in the HR54 related to bonding, it is all done in software and the HR54 uses the same CPU as the HR44. The two extra tuners are the only major hardware difference (not counting little things like leaving out the phone jack)


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

DUH


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I suppose a good question would be if tuning a channel on a pair of bonded transponders would require tuning both transponders. If I understand the concept, bonding will be used so three 4K channels can be placed on two transponders (instead of one 4K channel on each transponder with the rest of the space filled with HD or SD channels).

Will DIRECTV place one 4K channel on each transponder then use bonding for the third channel? Or will the data for all three 4K channels be spread across each pair? I am assuming the latter - since it would be easier to manage a bonded pair if the data was spread equally.

That would mean tuning a bonded pair would be needed any time any of the three channels on a pair is tuned. Which follows the concept of always having a hidden tuner ready for the bonded pair. It seems wasteful though to not be able to use those hidden tuner for another HD recording or a non-bonded 4K recording. Especially on a theoretical "17 tuner" (two 8 tuner chips plus a separate network tuner chip) receiver.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Well they make a six tuner chip too don't they? I wonder how much pricing has dropped for all this kind of gear and hvec decoders and such... they could drop 2 8 tuner and 1 6 tuner chip into a box and call it a 14 tuner DVR with up to 8 4K streams and an additional 6 Hi Definition only. That could drive a lot of simultaneous clients. Probably 7 or more like the hopper. 

I doubt that would happen though. But it's late so my mind is wandering.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> I suppose a good question would be if tuning a channel on a pair of bonded transponders would require tuning both transponders. If I understand the concept, bonding will be used so three 4K channels can be placed on two transponders (instead of one 4K channel on each transponder with the rest of the space filled with HD or SD channels).
> 
> Will DIRECTV place one 4K channel on each transponder then use bonding for the third channel? Or will the data for all three 4K channels be spread across each pair? I am assuming the latter - since it would be easier to manage a bonded pair if the data was spread equally.
> 
> That would mean tuning a bonded pair would be needed any time any of the three channels on a pair is tuned. Which follows the concept of always having a hidden tuner ready for the bonded pair. It seems wasteful though to not be able to use those hidden tuner for another HD recording or a non-bonded 4K recording. Especially on a theoretical "17 tuner" (two 8 tuner chips plus a separate network tuner chip) receiver.


Not sure if stat muxes can do that, but even if Directv were able to do this they'd have to design the overall system under the assumption that someone might happen to tune all the 'middle' channels. It would also eliminate the ability to have a really high quality 4K channel that required more than a full transponder's worth of bandwidth shared with lower quality 4K channels. Too early too tell for certain how 4K will play out. The 4K roadmap includes 120 fps broadcasts in a few years, which are targeted at fast action sports - a natural for say ESPN or NFLST. Gonna be a lot of bandwidth on those!


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> Well they make a six tuner chip too don't they? I wonder how much pricing has dropped for all this kind of gear and hvec decoders and such... they could drop 2 8 tuner and 1 6 tuner chip into a box and call it a 14 tuner DVR with up to 8 4K streams and an additional 6 Hi Definition only. That could drive a lot of simultaneous clients. Probably 7 or more like the hopper.
> 
> I doubt that would happen though. But it's late so my mind is wandering.


I haven't ever seen a six tuner satellite chip. Perhaps they exist but the only six tuner chips AFAIK are QAM.

Personally I think Directv will want to have customers think of a tuner as a tuner, not have to worry about doing math based on how many are 4K and how many are HD. Just because Dish has a 16 tuner DVR doesn't mean Directv needs to match it, the market for people who need/want more than 8 tuners is minuscule, and those customers won't care whether those 16 tuners come in one box or multiple.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> I haven't ever seen a six tuner satellite chip. Perhaps they exist but the only six tuner chips AFAIK are QAM.
> 
> Personally I think Directv will want to have customers think of a tuner as a tuner, not have to worry about doing math based on how many are 4K and how many are HD. Just because Dish has a 16 tuner DVR doesn't mean Directv needs to match it, the market for people who need/want more than 8 tuners is minuscule, and those customers won't care whether those 16 tuners come in one box or multiple.


I agree;

Imagine the challenge to the marketing departments trying to explain to customers of a future Genie or gateway server (in particular to the super clueless JSPs) how they'll have two sets of tuners. One reserved for 4K channel bonding, and the other for regular tuning of HD and SD programs. And then even when veiwing 4K programs, the addition of the reserved tuners to the mix won't actually increase the total tuner count.

Wow, ... and you think Dish had a marketing problem explaining their earlier "3 in one context, but 6 in another context" tuners in the Hopper 1 and 2 to customers?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Just because Dish has a 16 tuner DVR doesn't mean Directv needs to match it, the market for people who need/want more than 8 tuners is minuscule, and those customers won't care whether those 16 tuners come in one box or multiple.


As DIRECTV moves closer to a single receiver and a whole bunch of clients the more tuners they put on that receiver the better. As long as DIRECTV allows additional receivers to be tied in to the main receiver customers who need more than 8 are served.

DISH's solution is one receiver and the rest are clients. Hopefully 16 tuners will be enough. If not, I forsee a day where one can get two Hopper 3s and have 32 tuners in the house. That should be enough.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> As DIRECTV moves closer to a single receiver and a whole bunch of clients the more tuners they put on that receiver the better. As long as DIRECTV allows additional receivers to be tied in to the main receiver customers who need more than 8 are served.
> 
> DISH's solution is one receiver and the rest are clients. Hopefully 16 tuners will be enough. If not, I forsee a day where one can get two Hopper 3s and have 32 tuners in the house. That should be enough.


Didn't they recently introduce a hybrid node to allow two Hopper 3s to be installed? Or more, I suppose, if you split the LNB outputs to multiple hybrid nodes.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

slice1900 said:


> Didn't they recently introduce a hybrid node to allow two Hopper 3s to be installed? Or more, I suppose, if you split the LNB outputs to multiple hybrid nodes.


Yes, see http://blog.solidsignal.com/content.php/5979-CEDIA-2016-DISH-shows-DPH42-Hybrid-Switch


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I missed that announcement (posted Friday at Solid Signal). It looks like I foresaw correctly! 
(Although "Each Hopper 3 forms its own MoCA video network with connected Joeys" on DISH's document sounds like separate networks - not two Hoppers, 12 Joeys, 32 tuners, one network. I was also expecting something simpler than the amplified system shown.)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

James Long said:


> I missed that announcement (posted Friday at Solid Signal). It looks like I foresaw correctly!
> (Although "Each Hopper 3 forms its own MoCA video network with connected Joeys" on DISH's document sounds like separate networks - not two Hoppers, 12 Joeys, 32 tuners, one network. I was also expecting something simpler than the amplified system shown.)


Oh, that's too bad ...

When I first looked at the DPH42 switch, I thought for sure it would be like the DIRECTV SWiM-16 with an internal MoCA crossover network between the two outputs to allow combining the two Hopper MoCA networks into one large one with up to 14 nodes (2 Hoppers and 12 Joey clients).

Guess this indicates the H3 won't have this ability...

BTW, do the Hubs even allow the MoCA signal to travel out the satellite input port and up to the switch?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I wonder if the two networks could be combined like you can do with DIRECTV's using diplexers if you are running say two swim16s. Bridge just the Mocs not the sat tuners that way..


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> I wonder if the two networks could be combined like you can do with DIRECTV's using diplexers if you are running say two swim16s. Bridge just the Mocs not the sat tuners that way..


Why would you want to, if there there is a Hopper 3 on each one? The Hopper 3s would not be expecting to see each other's Joeys so it probably wouldn't work out well.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Why would you want to, if there there is a Hopper 3 on each one? The Hopper 3s would not be expecting to see each other's Joeys so it probably wouldn't work out well.


On a multiple Hopper system the Joeys are tied to one Hopper for recording and live viewing but can view recorded content off of either Hopper. The pairing is easy to set and change and the other Hopper doesn't mind seeing all of the Joeys on the network.

The problem I see with the "two Hopper 3 + 12 Joey" setup would be the MoCA channels. Each Joey (regardless of which Hopper it connects to) needs a MoCA connection. MoCA takes up space on the coax network - and with DISH using the same cable to feed the satellite signals to the Hopper 3 and they use to connect MoCA to the Joeys the coax fills up.

The cable from the Node to the Joeys is MoCA only ... but the connection from the Node to the Hopper 3 has a bottleneck.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

I am reading the signs on the display the same way as everyone else (2 separate networks) but in the text of the Solid Signal post there is this:



> This install should be much of a surprise to anyone who does DISH installs; the only piece of exotica here is the Sonora 4x4, which is basically four power-passing splitters and an amplifier in a neat little package. It's only there to show how you _could_ run multiple DPP42s if you wanted to, since unlike the DPP44 the new switches aren't cascadeable.
> 
> *In this installation, all Joeys would be able to see programming from all Hopper 3's*.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

James Long said:


> On a multiple Hopper system the Joeys are tied to one Hopper for recording and live viewing but can view recorded content off of either Hopper. The pairing is easy to set and change and the other Hopper doesn't mind seeing all of the Joeys on the network.
> 
> The problem I see with the "two Hopper 3 + 12 Joey" setup would be the MoCA channels. Each Joey (regardless of which Hopper it connects to) needs a MoCA connection. MoCA takes up space on the coax network - and with DISH using the same cable to feed the satellite signals to the Hopper 3 and they use to connect MoCA to the Joeys the coax fills up.
> 
> The cable from the Node to the Joeys is MoCA only ... but the connection from the Node to the Hopper 3 has a bottleneck.


Aren't the H3s and Joeys using MoCA 2.0 which like the previous 1.1 can handle up to 16 nodes?

And I can understand the earlier H1 and 2 installs using MoCA 1.1, especially if there were SJs included hogging MoCA bandwidth. But the H3s using MoCA 2.0 with it's much higher throughput (via channel bonding) should be sufficient bandwidth available even with as many as 12 Joeys on the network.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

longrider said:


> I am reading the signs on the display the same way as everyone else (2 separate networks) but in the text of the Solid Signal post there is this:


Yeah... I think the SolidSignal reporter, Stuart?, got it wrong on that point.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> The problem I see with the "two Hopper 3 + 12 Joey" setup would be the MoCA channels. Each Joey (regardless of which Hopper it connects to) needs a MoCA connection. MoCA takes up space on the coax network - and with DISH using the same cable to feed the satellite signals to the Hopper 3 and they use to connect MoCA to the Joeys the coax fills up.
> 
> The cable from the Node to the Joeys is MoCA only ... but the connection from the Node to the Hopper 3 has a bottleneck.


Dish's "hybrid LNB" is a channel stacking switch using a Maxlinear chip - different part number but same product family as Directv is using in its 3D2/3DR/5DR LNBs. Basically Dish is finally using SWM, they just don't call it that. The output is configurable in the range 200 - 2350 MHz or something like that, but I don't know the channel plan Dish is using.

Since Dish wasn't constrained by backwards compatibility as only the Hopper 3 can (currently) connect to a hybrid LNB, and the tuner chips it uses can tune that same range, they could start the channel stack at 200 MHz if they wanted. However, the need for those 16 channels and MoCA to coexist would probably mean starting it around 950 MHz like Directv does, rather than starting it low. Dish uses MoCA band F (675 - 850 MHz) so if they didn't start above it they'd need to leave a gap around it.

I kind of wonder, WHY is it only a Hopper 3 can connect to a hybrid LNB? Assuming the output was in the 950-2150 MHz range, I don't see any reason Dish's other receivers (or older Hoppers) couldn't connect also provided Dish gave them updated firmware to handle it. If the hybrid LNB / hybrid node is only configured to output 16 channels that would be a problem for co-existing with a Hopper 3, of course, but the chip supports the output of 24 channels if they decided to make some of their older equipment compatible with "SWM".


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> Dish's "hybrid LNB" is a channel stacking switch using a Maxlinear chip - different part number but same product family as Directv is using in its 3D2/3DR/5DR LNBs. Basically Dish is finally using SWM, they just don't call it that. The output is configurable in the range 200 - 2350 MHz or something like that, but I don't know the channel plan Dish is using.
> 
> Since Dish wasn't constrained by backwards compatibility as only the Hopper 3 can (currently) connect to a hybrid LNB, and the tuner chips it uses can tune that same range, they could start the channel stack at 200 MHz if they wanted. However, the need for those 16 channels and MoCA to coexist would probably mean starting it around 950 MHz like Directv does, rather than starting it low. Dish uses MoCA band F (675 - 850 MHz) so if they didn't start above it they'd need to leave a gap around it.
> 
> I kind of wonder, WHY is it only a Hopper 3 can connect to a hybrid LNB? Assuming the output was in the 950-2150 MHz range, I don't see any reason Dish's other receivers (or older Hoppers) couldn't connect also provided Dish gave them updated firmware to handle it. If the hybrid LNB / hybrid node is only configured to output 16 channels that would be a problem for co-existing with a Hopper 3, of course, but the chip supports the output of 24 channels if they decided to make some of their older equipment compatible with "SWM".


AIUI, the Dish Pro Hybrid LNB can generate either "Dish Pro,"(dp) "Dish Pro Plus" (dpp), "Dish Pro Extreme" (dpX), or Dish Pro Hybrid (the SWiM equivalent) (dph), signaling depending on the connection which it detects on power up.

When connected to the DPH42 switch the dph LNB will select the first option and generate basic "Dish Pro" signals on each line from it.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> ... Dish uses MoCA band F (675 - 850 MHz) ... .


Actually the MoCA F Band is 650-875 MHz.  ...

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> AIUI, the Dish Pro Hybrid LNB can generate either "Dish Pro,"(dp) "Dish Pro Plus" (dpp), "Dish Pro Extreme" (dpX), or Dish Pro Hybrid (the SWiM equivalent) (dph), signaling depending on the connection which it detects on power up.
> 
> When connected to the DPH42 switch the dph LNB will select the first option and generate basic "Dish Pro" signals on each line from it.


Yes, it uses a different Maxlinear chip because Dish had a requirement for it to also do band stacking for compatibility with Dish's older Hoppers etc., in addition to the SWM-like channel stacking the Hopper 3 uses. But it can only be in one mode at once. If you wanted to connect a Hopper 2 and Hopper 3 to it simultaneously, the Hopper 2 would need new firmware that let it understand channel stacking (and the LNB would have to be configured for at least 19 tuners - not sure if it is currently limited to 16 or there are 8 'unused' tuners on it when used with a Hopper 3)


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

looks like the theme for DIFFERENT thread in dish forum

:backtotop:


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

I finally received a 5 sat reverse band LNB (5D2RBLNBR0-01) today to replace my 3D2RB. Haven't had a chance to test it, I'll be doing that tomorrow.

But check out the pics and tell me what you think. I didn't think an LNB could be modified, fixed, taken apart, etc after being fully assembled and "potted" to keep any moisture out. Yet it looks like this has been modified in some way. 

Has anyone ever seen this on any LNB? Or on a 5D2RB? It's definitely never been used before, at least not outside. And it still has the brand new yellow tag to be removed. The serial number is in the range of the few I've seen online.

Thanks!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

starcms said:


> I finally received a 5 sat reverse band LNB (5D2RBLNBR0-01) today to replace my 3D2RB. Haven't had a chance to test it, I'll be doing that tomorrow.
> 
> But check out the pics and tell me what you think. *I didn't think an LNB could be modified, fixed, taken apart, etc after being fully assembled and "potted" to keep any moisture out.* Yet it looks like this has been modified in some way.
> 
> ...


just quick answer to your question - yes, it could be done


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## cpalmer2k (May 24, 2010)

I got mine yesterday too and noticed the same thing. It looks and feels very cheap, almost like the casing wasn't assembled properly. I was going to put it up yesterday but decided to wait until I can get some clear caulk to run along the seams. Mine was the $49 seller, was yours the same?


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

cpalmer2k said:


> I got mine yesterday too and noticed the same thing. It looks and feels very cheap, almost like the casing wasn't assembled properly. I was going to put it up yesterday but decided to wait until I can get some clear caulk to run along the seams. Mine was the $49 seller, was yours the same?


Yep, same place.

I emailed the seller; he said the box was brand-new from DirecTV and was opened the day before he shipped them. He said they all had that cosmetic issue in the same area; some worse than others; some in very slightly different places, but all in the same general area. He also said they are from one of only two test markets and that the nationwide roll-out has still not begun.

Mine doesn't feel "cheap" -- it's actually quite a bit heavier than I imagined and is very solid. If it wasn't for that cosmetic issue, I wouldn't have had any concerns.

If the part you are saying feels cheap or a little loose is the back cover (where the DirecTV logo used to be on older LNBs), that's a non issue. You can easily pop that cover off and you'll see all the weather-proofing/caulk/sealing/etc is under it. The cover is purely cosmetic; you could pop it off and put it on the dish and it'd be fine if not odd looking (the weather-proofing material is white). Absolutely no point in sealing/caulking around the seam on the side with the LNBs where the back cover snaps on. My guess is they are still trying to figure out what logo to put on it (DirecTV or AT&T or some combination) and they can simply pop the current blank cover off and pop the logo'd cover on when they go to nationwide roll-out. Regardless, if that is what you thought felt cheap or a little loose, it's definitely not an issue.

Hope that helps!


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

cpalmer2k said:


> I got mine yesterday too and noticed the same thing. It looks and feels very cheap, almost like the casing wasn't assembled properly. I was going to put it up yesterday but decided to wait until I can get some clear caulk to run along the seams. Mine was the $49 seller, was yours the same?


I do t think I'd be adding any caulk or anything like that. Just put it up and see what happens. I could see you causing issues with heat etc by trying to seal it more when it's probably totally sealed underneath where you can't see.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

5D2RB LNB Bah Humbug!!

Won't work for me.

Tried my "science project" this weekend
I have HR54, several HR20s and H24 to total 21 tuners
Presently running parallel SWM-16 with NAS diplexors networking all boxes via DECA
Works great, but looking to the future for my Samsung 4K and C61k with the reverse band.

Thought I'd try to answer the 21 vs 13 Tuner count for myself.
Was hoping that I could start with the HR20's and add the HR 54 last to force the system to 21 tuners.
Didn't work. First HR20 came with Caution Notice ->
"If a network has at least 0ne NDS, Hx2x, or HR34, Only 13 tuners will be available!"

Frustrated , gave up and will have to wait till "commercial 4K system" developed
I did NOT push on to covert all boxes and try to record >13 shows so not Definite that 13 is limited
However the shear amount of time to restart (sometimes multiple times) the HR20's to get to RB was overwhelming. Spend ~ 1/2 day with just one HR20 and HR54 setting up, then restoring.

Doctor j


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

What software was your HR20 running?


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

Doctor J,

I've tested a HR44 and 5 HR24s (15 tuners) on 3D2RB. I'm sure it'll be no different with the 5D2RB I'm installing today. 

The issue seems to be the HR20 in particular, regardless of the caution message saying Hx2x, forcing it to only 13 tuners. 

Edit: Also on the HR24s, there's no increase in boot time, the dish type is shown as SL5-DR, and the top 3 options (dish type, switch type, and rb/intl) are automatically selected and grayed out (cannot be modified). 

Edit 2: Also, I'm pretty sure that caution notice is shown automatically for any receiver (including HR54) when connected to a 21 tuner LNB.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

starcms said:


> Doctor J,
> 
> I've tested a HR44 and 5 HR24s (15 tuners) on 3D2RB. I'm sure it'll be no different with the 5D2RB I'm installing today.
> 
> ...


Hey, be sure to keep me posted on your success since I'm looking to upgrade to a 5D2RB and you have same setup I have here, except that I have an HR54 and 5 HR24s.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Edit 2: Also, I'm pretty sure that caution notice is shown automatically for any receiver (including HR54) when connected to a 21 tuner LNB.


I can confirm that is true. My HR54 shows it.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

What is the "NDS" that the message refers to?


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> What is the "NDS" that the message refers to?


From a previous post



KyL416 said:


> NDS is the company that made the software that runs on SD receivers like the D12 and R16, which are SWM capable. (Any previous D1x and R1x models, as well as pre D/R/Hx-era receviers are not SWM capable and can only be hooked up to Legacy ports, so they are not part of the SWM tuner count)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> What is the "NDS" that the message refers to?


I think it refers to "News Datacom Systems" who actually developed the firmware for the early DIRECTV DVRs like the R15 and other SD only receivers at the time.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

My Hr20's are on a relatively recent CE , Don't recall version but will post later.

Doctor j


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

HoTat2 said:


> Hey, be sure to keep me posted on your success since I'm looking to upgrade to a 5D2RB and you have same setup I have here, except that I have an HR54 and 5 HR24s.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Didn't get a chance to swap out my 3D2RB for the 5D2RB, but if your system consists of HR54 and HR24s, you'll definitely have 21 tuners available. Already been tested, plus it's got the exact same DSWM chip as the 3D2RB, just 2 more LNBs.

To my knowledge: Any combination of HR54, HR44, HR24 let 21 tuners work I'm positive.

I'm pretty sure the HR21, 22, 23, and H24 and H25 also allow 21 tuners, but not 100% sure.

The HR34, HR20, older H models, and all D* and R* models force the LNB to 13 tuners. Any one of these receivers will force the entire network to only 13 tuners.

Also, connecting an HR54 to a reverse band LNB will enable it to use 7 tuners instead of 5 (you can't use the 2 extra, but it enables and allocates them for future channel-bonding purposes. ). So technically you'll go from using 15 swim channels to 17.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I get the feeling nothing forces the lnb to any configuration. I think the issue is the receivers can't tune right sometimes if it's using the higher end of the tuner range and that's why they say to stop at 13 but I guess it's possible the swim could change its own internal settings based on some feedback. We've just never seen that before so I don't see that being the case..


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> I get the feeling nothing forces the lnb to any configuration. I think the issue is the receivers can't tune right sometimes if it's using the higher end of the tuner range and that's why they say to stop at 13 but I guess it's possible the swim could change its own internal settings based on some feedback. We've just never seen that before so I don't see that being the case..


I think there must be 2-way communication between the RB LNBs and the receivers For instance on the HR54, 44, and 24, the LNB type is automatically selected and can't be changed. On the HR20, it has to be manually set.

My guess is that to support 21 channels, the receiver has to communicate with the LNB as can be seen with the example above. Possibly if a receiver connects but doesn't communicate both ways (for example HR20), the LNB switches from 21 to 13 tuners.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

starcms said:


> I think there must be 2-way communication between the RB LNBs and the receivers For instance on the HR54, 44, and 24, the LNB type is automatically selected and can't be changed. On the HR20, it has to be manually set.
> 
> My guess is that to support 21 channels, the receiver has to communicate with the LNB as can be seen with the example above. Possibly if a receiver connects but doesn't communicate both ways (for example HR20), the LNB switches from 21 to 13 tuners.


There's an internal conflict with that idea... if all it took was that why would the HR24 and HR34 be unable to work with it.

No I believe there is a little two way communication but not at the level suggested by any means. swim systems simply broadcast and the DVRs can detect what they are broadcasting and what channels they have available and a swim allows channels to be locked by certain devices. That's always been the case. But it's never been the case where the swim would act differently depending on what's in the system. It doesn't have that level of control. It has set parameters of how to let channels be taken and used but it doesn't allow the receivers to tell it how to do that.

I believe this is an issue with the older models not being able to handle all the different freq in the higher range and narrow bandwidth properly. And that at some point they start having issues which is why it's probably more than 13 but less than 21 generally but it'll never be less than 13 that could work so they chose that number as the limit.

That's my guess anyway.

But the lnb won't ch he what it can do based on what's connected. They just don't built swims that way.

And all hx2x systems can detect swim setups and how many swim channels there are. So they all have that small level of communication.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I did analysis of communication between STB and DLNB and posted results... nobody remember ? Well, then WAG is coming like posted above a couple times


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> I think there must be 2-way communication between the RB LNBs and the receivers For instance on the HR54, 44, and 24, the LNB type is automatically selected and can't be changed. *On the HR20, it has to be manually set.*


I'm not sure this last part is entirely true. After I got my HR54 all I had to do was reboot the HR20-700s (on the NR) and it automatically selected the correct LNB. And you can not go back in and change it to anything else.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Doesn't matter what LNB, SWM obviously requires two way communication.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> Doesn't matter what LNB, SWM obviously requires two way communication.


I agree. But a few pages back, I suggested that the receiver could make "decisions" based on what LNB you had and what service you were authorized for (i.e. 4K) but some folks said that would somehow be too complicated. To me since the receiver can now auto-detect what LNB you have, and it's simple enough for the receiver to see if you are authorized for 4K, for it to be able to configure one way or another. Correct LNB = 21 tuners. No 4K = 21 tuners. 4K = 13 tuners.

And my other point was that my HR20s (at least the HR20-700) were able to auto detect the LNB. A few people said the HR20 couldn't.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I'd be very very very surprised if it decided how many tuners to present based on whether you have 4K enabled in your account.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

Well, a few posts back someone said they already tested it with 15 tuners (no 4K). So either they base the number of tuners available on what you actually are authorized for, or neuter all of them.

My point is that if you can use 15 tuners today, and they change something later to limit it to 13, why not just make it depend on what you have? Now maybe they won't do it that way, but all I am saying is that it would not be difficult to do a simple "IF THEN" decision in the software.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> There's an internal conflict with that idea... if all it took was that why would the HR24 and HR34 be unable to work with it.


Let me just clear up what I am sure of.

HR24 works with 21 tuners, as does HR44 and HR54. HR34 doesn't. If you have an HR34 connected to a RB LNB, only 13 tuners are available. I have personally tested this.

Either the LNB is detecting something from the receiver(s) and changing parameters or the receiver(s) on the network are detecting something from the other receivers and only allowing 13 swim channels to be used.

Edit: It's important to remember we are now dealing with DSWM (digital swim) as opposed to conventional or analog swim. I personally think the RB LNBs have logic and are making decisions based on equipment connected.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

starcms said:


> Let me just clear up what I am sure of.
> 
> HR24 works with 21 tuners, as does HR44 and HR54. HR34 doesn't. If you have an HR34 connected to a RB LNB, only 13 tuners are available. I have personally tested this.
> 
> ...


How exactly did you confirm this? Did you boot the HR34 first and then other receivers and see when you started having issues?

I'm having trouble believing the Dswim lnb changes what size freq it uses or shifts freq centered or has to change its stacking plan or anything of that nature based on what is connected.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Either the LNB is detecting something from the receiver(s) and changing parameters *or the receiver(s) on the network are detecting something from the other receivers and only allowing 13 swim channels to be used. *


My bet would be the second part since some have said the LNB can not be configured by the receivers. So if it is the second part, that is why I feel it is technically possible to "flip the 13/21 switch" based on receiver parameters. One of them being if you are authorized to receive 4K or not. Not sure what would make the HR34 automatically flip it though. The receivers are all connected, so it would be easy enough for the 4K capable unit to tell the other receivers that only 13 tuners are available if 4K is authorized.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I'm having trouble believing the Dswim lnb changes what size freq it uses or shifts freq centered or has to change its stacking plan or anything of that nature based on what is connected.


I'm glad because it doesn't [or can't].
What it can do is pick which "table" it will use.
Another thing some may not know is each model receiver has its own code. While the version number may be the same, if you look at the file size, you'll see the difference.

The 34 is around an 8 year old in design, and at that time analog SWiM was the only thing in the works.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

To the best of my knowledge, receivers only communicate with the SWiM [analog or digital] and not with each other.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

I posted on a different forum as follows (slightly edited):

The message you get warning you you may only have 13 tuners seems to be just boilerplate. It's not an error message. If you continue, things seem to work OK. Strange...
There's all this speculation about the HR24 having problems if it's the last DVR you add to the system, but, certainly with my setup, I don't see it. . I have a 3 LNB reverse band, and have run it with 21 tuners. Currently I am running with 17 tuners (19 if you count the HR54 as 5 tuners) . It does not seem to matter where the HR24s are in the startup sequence, even removing power from everything, waiting, powering up the LNB and then the receivers. Even if the very last receiver to be powered up is an HR24, everything works.
Is the SWM frequency band actually extended with the new LNB? I had thought the SWM channels were just spaced closer together with the digital SWM.....


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> To the best of my knowledge, receivers only communicate with the SWiM [analog or digital] and not with each other.


Though I always thought that they could inferred from how the SWiM capable SD receivers D12 and R16 could perform a "callback" when a phoneline connection was not available to them.

They would then first communicate the callback info. to a network connected HR2X receiver using the 2.3 MHz SWiM control signal for later relay back to DIRECTV over the internet connection to the HR2X.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Though I always thought that they could inferred from how the SWiM capable SD receivers D12 and R16 could perform a "callback" when a phoneline connection was not available to them.
> 
> They would then first communicate the callback info. to a network connected HR2X receiver using the 2.3 MHz SWiM control signal for later relay back to DIRECTV over the internet connection to the HR2X.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


First I heard of that one......


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Though I always thought that they could inferred from how the SWiM capable SD receivers D12 and R16 could perform a "callback" when a phoneline connection was not available to them.
> 
> They would then first communicate the callback info. to a network connected HR2X receiver using the 2.3 MHz SWiM control signal for later relay back to DIRECTV over the internet connection to the HR2X.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Yes I do remember something about that but still the SWiM is the "command center"


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> First I heard of that one......


I saw that in some paper about SWiM.

Not sure if it made production [as I never had SD hardware & SWiM], but it was in the early "plans/ideas"


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> Is the SWM frequency band actually extended with the new LNB? I had thought the SWM channels were just spaced closer together with the digital SWM.....


The DSWM uses half the channel spacing of the ASWiM, but even that isn't enough for the 21/22 channels.

This is an early chart of the DSWM13, and the red x'd part show where they were planning to go with the increased channels.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> I did analysis of communication between STB and DLNB and posted results... nobody remember ? Well, then WAG is coming like posted above a couple times


Any chance of providing a link to those results?


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The DSWM uses half the channel spacing of the ASWiM, but even that isn't enough for the 21/22 channels.
> 
> This is an early chart of the DSWM13, and the red x'd part show where they were planning to go with the increased channels.
> 
> ...


OK, so to do a real test I need to go through and make sure every tuner is on a different transponder and that an HR24 is last......


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> The DSWM uses half the channel spacing of the ASWiM, but even that isn't enough for the 21/22 channels.
> 
> This is an early chart of the DSWM13, and the red x'd part show where they were planning to go with the increased channels.
> 
> ...


What frequencies does analog swim use? I bet they use the same as DSWM channels 1 thru 14.

If that is true, then that explains everything. That would mean the older swim receivers have a different decoder chip that can only see those lower frequencies. You can add DSWM functionality to older receivers with a firmware update, as has already been done, to allow them to use DSWM but only channels 1 thru 14 (13 and control channel)

To eliminate headaches or confusion and to not require non-21 swim channel capable receivers to be connected first in order to work, they designed the system so that if just one receiver is connected that doesn't support using the full set of frequencies needed for 21 swim channels and only supports 13, then the entire network is limited to the same. Otherwise a power failure and the reboot sequence would go haywire if more than 13 tuners were being used, but 5 of those tuners were coming from an say an HR34 which isn't guaranteed to happen to boot up first. Then the HR34 possibly wouldn't have any swim channels available in the bottom 14 once it booted up.

So it's simple, if all receivers connected support the full frequency set required for 22 channel swim (21 + control), the boot up sequence has no consequence and all 22 tuners are available. The HR24, 44, and 54 support 21 channel swim through my testing.

If one receiver joins the network that was originally made for analog swim, was upgraded thru firmware to support DSWM, but is hardware limited to only support frequencies originally needed for analog swim channels 1 thru 9 which use the same freq as digital swim channels 1 thru 14, such as the HR34, the network is limited to only be able to utilize the bottom 14 DSWM channels. This fixes any boot order issues.

Also, I've heard mentioned that if you don't subscribe to 4k, you'll keep 21 tuners available, but if you subscribe to 4k, you'll be limited to 13. This makes absolutely no sense to me. The HR54, when connected to a RB LNB, allocates 7 swim channels as opposed to 5. The two hidden channels will eventually be used for channel bonding. So channel bonding is already taken care of by giving an HR54 7 tuners when connected to RB LNB. So why in the world would a person be limited from 21 to 13 swim channels for signing up for 4k? So basically in addition to the two extra swim channels an HR54 already automatically allocates for channel bonding, you think another 8 tuners (to go from 21 to 13) are going to be required for 4k service? In what universe and why?

I'm sure the 13 or 21 limit has and never will have anything to do with 4k. It has to do with the capabilities of your receivers. That's it. Simple.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Also, I've heard mentioned that if you don't subscribe to 4k, you'll keep 21 tuners available, but if you subscribe to 4k, you'll be limited to 13. This makes absolutely no sense to me. The HR54, when connected to a RB LNB, allocates 7 swim channels as opposed to 5. The two hidden channels will eventually be used for channel bonding. So channel bonding is already taken care of by giving an HR54 7 tuners when connected to RB LNB. So why in the world would a person be limited from 21 to 13 swim channels for signing up for 4k? So basically in addition to the two extra swim channels an HR54 already automatically allocates for channel bonding, you think another 8 tuners (to go from 21 to 13) are going to be required for 4k service? In what universe and why?
> 
> I'm sure the 13 or 21 limit has and never will have anything to do with 4k. It has to do with the capabilities of your receivers. That's it. Simple.


Then why are several people reporting that 21 tuners are available and working as long as they don't connect a HR34 which then limits it to 13 and they also don't have 4K? Why limit it to 13 at all if it is currently working with 21 (with perhaps one exception)? IMO the only other variable is 4K service. And why does the HR34 trigger the 13 limit for all other receivers?

In any case I have no horse in this race. My only point was stating that I believe it is possible for them to limit the number of tuners based on whether or not you have 4K service. Not that they would or need to, only that it would not be difficult.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> The DSWM uses half the channel spacing of the ASWiM, but even that isn't enough for the 21/22 channels.


That won't fit within the analog SWM's range, but 21/22 channels easily fit within the tuner's range of 950-2150 MHz.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

poppo said:


> Then why are several people reporting that 21 tuners are available and working as long as they don't connect a HR34 which then limits it to 13 and they also don't have 4K? Why limit it to 13 at all if it is currently working with 21 (with perhaps one exception)? IMO the only other variable is 4K service. And why does the HR34 trigger the 13 limit for all other receivers?


I guess you didn't read or understand my post.

The HR34 does not have hardware support to be able to access the full 21 DSWM channels. It was made for analog swim, firmware update to support DSWM, but that doesn't change the hardware. Analog swim channels 1 thru 8 are on the same frequencies as digital swim channels 1 thru 13. Yes, it could technically work if booted first, but after a power failure, the boot order of the receivers can't be insured.

Therefore the HR34 causes the network to only use the bottom 13 digital swim channels/frequencies that it supports so boot order doesn't matter.

What does 4k have anything to do with this? If all your receivers support the full range of frequencies for 21 channel swim, 21 channels are available. If a receiver doesn't have hardware support for 21 channel swim, the network is limited to the lower 13 DSWM channels/frequencies. That's it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> What frequencies does analog swim use? I bet they use the same as DSWM channels 1 thru 14.
> 
> If that is true, then that explains everything. That would mean the older swim receivers have a different decoder chip that can only see those lower frequencies. You can add DSWM functionality to older receivers with a firmware update, as has already been done, to allow them to use DSWM but only channels 1 thru 14 (13 and control channel)
> 
> ...


You're on the right track.

The "control" channel isn't counted [being 2.3 MHz] so what you're calling that is the guide channel common to all receivers.

The highest channel of the ASWiM is 1790 or channel 17 on the DSWM chart.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> I guess you didn't read or understand my post.
> 
> The HR34 does not have hardware support to be able to access the full 21 DSWM channels. It was made for analog swim, firmware update to support DSWM, but that doesn't change the hardware. Analog swim channels 1 thru 8 are on the same frequencies as digital swim channels 1 thru 13. Yes, it could technically work if booted first, but after a power failure, the boot order of the receivers can't be insured.
> 
> ...


the 34 was the first SWiM ONLY receiver and it may not be able to tune high enough, or have issues with the bandwidth of the tuner, where the 100 MHz ASWiM works but the 50 MHz DSWiM doesn't as it might have crosstalk. :shrug:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

And from the dark ages:


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> You're on the right track.
> 
> The "control" channel isn't counted [being 2.3 MHz] so what you're calling that is the guide channel common to all receivers.
> 
> The highest channel of the ASWiM is 1790 or channel 17 on the DSWM chart.


Thanks for the correction of control channel vs guide content channel.

I don't see why the actual 2.3MHz swim control channel cannot simply be used to communicate receiver model or capability to either LNB or other receivers to determine if all receivers support the full bandwidth needed for 21 channel swim; and if one receiver communicates that it only supports 13 channel swim, the entire network is then forced to only 13 tuners to prevent any booting order issues with the receivers.

Thanks to @veryoldschool for the exact frequencies. Analog Swim channels 1 thru 9 use same bandwidth as DSWM channels 1 thru 17. So one would think the limit should be 17 vs 21 instead of 13 vs 21. But as @veryoldschool noted, you have to remember the receivers such as the HR34 were originally made for analog swim. Yes, they were upgraded via firmware to support DSWM, and could theoretically support the lower 17 DSWM channels instead of 13, but issues with crosstalk, or other incompatibilities encountered when trying to use DSWM to utilize the very top end of frequencies originally made for analog swim caused them to set the limit at a safe, conservative 13 instead of 17.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> the 34 was the first SWiM ONLY receiver and it may not be able to tune high enough, or have issues with the bandwidth of the tuner, where the 100 MHz ASWiM works but the 50 MHz DSWiM doesn't as it might have crosstalk. :shrug:


Wasn't the H25 was the first SWiM only receiver? 

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Wasn't the H25 was the first SWiM only receiver?
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


Guess that might depend on whether you're talking released or in test.
the 34 had an extremely LONG test cycle dating back to the HMC30 :hair:


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> The HR34 does not have hardware support to be able to access the full 21 DSWM channels.
> ...
> What does 4k have anything to do with this?


I thought the HR24 was older but works. But I don't recall off hand when it came out. But how does the HR34 manage to limit the rest of the receivers too (per someone else's test)?

The whole issue about 4K came about when it was stated way earlier in the thread that this LNB was needed for it and that only 13 would be available because it needed the rest for 4K . And then came the discussion about whether or not it actually supported 21 "regular" tuners, which apparently it does. Then it was talked about whether or not 21 would still be available later when 4K fully rolls out. So that is why 4K has been mentioned so much as a possible factor down the road


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

texasbrit said:


> First I heard of that one......


Yeah,... like with VOS' post on analog SWiM frequencies, from the "dark ages" as well.

See p. 48

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

poppo said:


> I thought the HR24 was older but works. But I don't recall off hand when it came out. But how does the HR34 manage to limit the rest of the receivers too (per someone else's test)?
> 
> The whole issue about 4K came about when it was stated way earlier in the thread that this LNB was needed for it and that only 13 would be available because it needed the rest for 4K . And then came the discussion about whether or not it actually supported 21 "regular" tuners, which apparently it does. Then it was talked about whether or not 21 would still be available later when 4K fully rolls out. So that is why 4K has been mentioned so much as a possible factor down the road


The HR24 does support a 21 channel swim network. The HR34 does not. I'm unsure of the exact release dates for both receivers, but @veryoldschool says it the HR34 was in a very long development period before release.

The exact way receivers thst don't support a 21 channel swim network (such as the HR34) limit the number of tuners available to 13 for the entire network is unknown and has been under discussion these last couple pages.

Regarding the issue about 4k, there is no way that 4k requires 8 reserved swim channels in addition to the two extra for each HR54. When an HR54 is connected to a non-RB LNB, it uses 5 swim channels. When connected to a RB LNB, it reserves 7 swim channels, the two extra for transponder bonding purposes for 4k. So if the HR54 is already allocating all the swim channels it needs for transponder bonding ability (which will only be used for 4k), why in the world would an extra 8 swim channels be required for 4k? It makes absolutely no sense and I'm sure there is no connection between 4k and the 13 vs 21 tuners.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> The HR24 does support a 21 channel swim network. The HR34 does not. I'm unsure of the exact release dates for both receivers, but @veryoldschool says it the HR34 was in a very long development period before release.
> 
> The exact way receivers thst don't support a 21 channel swim network (such as the HR34) limit the number of tuners available to 13 for the entire network is unknown and has been under discussion these last couple pages.
> 
> Regarding the issue about 4k, there is no way that 4k requires 8 reserved swim channels in addition to the two extra for each HR54. When an HR54 is connected to a non-RB LNB, it uses 5 swim channels. When connected to a RB LNB, it reserves 7 swim channels, the two extra for transponder bonding purposes for 4k. So if the HR54 is already allocating all the swim channels it needs for transponder bonding ability (which will only be used for 4k), why in the world would an extra 8 swim channels be required for 4k? It makes absolutely no sense and I'm sure there is no connection between 4k and the 13 vs 21 tuners.


To get an idea of what's going on would take a spectrum analyzer.

The RB transponder package was reported [somewhere] to be wider.
"If" the 54 will be able to record two 4K programs, "then" the 50 MHz wide SWiM channels may not be wide enough, so they'll get combined too.

Until this all goes live and someone has an SA to see the band, nobody really knows what all will be going on.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah,... like with VOS' post on analog SWiM frequencies, from the "dark ages" as well.
> 
> See p. 48
> 
> Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


"call back" function have nothing to do with *functional CONTROL *of DLNB from STB

the number of used tuners of each STB independent and defined by a) DLNB Gen eg capability, B) info what STB getting from the DLNB during initial boot query c) a level of FTM protocol (if it's extended eg Gen2, then 21 tuner supporting) and d) race condition (if other STB already reserved some SWiM channels)

DLNB's OS just reporting to queries from STBs about capabilities and serve requests for FTM_channels/tpns from STB; that's it

so much speculations created here... just WAG fountain


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> "call back" function have nothing to do with *functional CONTROL *of DLNB from STB
> 
> the number of used tuners of each STB independent and defined by a) DLNB Gen eg capability, B) info what STB getting from the DLNB during initial boot query c) a level of FTM protocol (if it's extended eg Gen2, then 21 tuner supporting) and d) race condition (if other STB already reserved some SWiM channels)
> 
> ...


I'm guessing you can't check this with your SA while in the Larnaka area.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

P Smith said:


> "call back" function have nothing to do with *functional CONTROL *of DLNB from STB ...


I know it doesn't;

I was just responding to TB who had never heard of that type of callback capability using the 2.3 MHz SWiM control channel.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm guessing you can't check this with your SA while in the Larnaka area.


errr, you don't need to have SA for that - just connect RS232 cable to DLNB's PCB and run any STB (no DTV sat signal required !) - FTM aka SWiM it's just SW protocol


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> To get an idea of what's going on would take a spectrum analyzer.
> 
> The RB transponder package was reported [somewhere] to be wider.
> "If" the 54 will be able to record two 4K programs, "then" the 50 MHz wide SWiM channels may not be wide enough, so they'll get combined too.
> ...


Yeah, access to a spectrum analyzer would be great 

Regarding the RB transponders, they use the exact same bandwidth as any Ka transponder. Therefore it should still be one swim channel per transponder as always. Not sure where you heard the RB xbonder bandwidth was wider.

Back to the RB LNB and how it's determined if 13 vs 21 channels are available. I really believe it is based on communication between the receivers and the LNB over the 2.3MHz FSK Swim control frequency. The firmware in the LNB is most likely programmed as to which receivers support 21 channel and which only support 13. If a receiver connects that doesn't support 21 channels, such as HR34, the LNB only allows the lower 14 (13 + guide data) DSWM channels to be used. This prevents any issues with the boot order of the individual receivers. If the network wasn't limited to 21 while a receiver that only supported 13 was connected, and the power went out, when it came back on, theres no way to ensure the 13 only receiver would boot before receivers that support 21, and for instance with an HR44, four HR24s, and HR34 where the HR34 only supports 13, if the HR44 and HR24s booted first, they would use all 13 of the lower DSWM channels. Then the HR34 would have no swim channels available. If the HR34 didn't immediately kill 21 tuners, it could theoretically be booted first and the newer receivers after and it would work, but DirecTV isn't going to put out something like that which is so sensitive to boot order and power failures.

So to make it simple, any receiver that doesn't support the full 21 DSWM channels, forces it to only use the lower 13 DSWM channels so that boot order of the receivers has no consequence.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> To get an idea of what's going on would take a spectrum analyzer.
> 
> The RB transponder package was reported [somewhere] to be wider.
> "If" the 54 will be able to record two 4K programs, "then" the 50 MHz wide SWiM channels may not be wide enough, so they'll get combined too.
> ...


The reverse band transponders are 36 MHz wide, just like Ka.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

> So to make it simple, any receiver that doesn't support the full 21 DSWM channels, forces it to only use the lower 13 DSWM channels so that boot order of the receivers has no consequence.


no one STB _forced_ by DLNB's FW to that !

It's STB prerogative


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

P Smith said:


> no one STB _forced_ by DLNB's FW to that !
> 
> It's STB prerogative


Maybe more accurate to say if a STB only supports the lower 13 DSWM channels, it triggers the network (meaning the other receivers, not the LNB itself) to limit itself to 13 channels.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> To get an idea of what's going on would take a spectrum analyzer.
> 
> The RB transponder package was reported [somewhere] to be wider.
> "If" the 54 will be able to record two 4K programs, "then" the 50 MHz wide SWiM channels may not be wide enough, so they'll get combined too.
> ...


So.....

2 tuners for 4K.

each bonded so that's four...

if bandwidth requires double for each transponders as well that's 8...

13+8..... maybe that explains it all...


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> So.....
> 
> 2 tuners for 4K.
> 
> ...


No it doesn't explain anything. RB transponders use the same bandwidth as Ka transponders, 36 MHz wide. Therefore one swim channel will continue to be able to carry the contents of one transponder.

Transponder bonding works by bonding one of the HR54s regular 5 tuners to one of the reserved 2 tuners. Therefore, an HR54 will be able to record two 4k programs at once. For each 4k program it'll use one of the five regular tuners plus one of the two reserved tuners.

There is no reason at all that 4k would require an additional 8 tuners simply reserved or off limits. The two extra tuners/swim channels the HR54 takes when connected to a RB LNB (7 instead of 5) is everything needed for channel bonding. The 13 vs 21 tuner discussion has absolutely nothing to do with channel bonding and therefore has nothing to do with 4k.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

starcms said:


> Yeah, access to a spectrum analyzer would be great
> 
> Regarding the RB transponders, they use the exact same bandwidth as any Ka transponder. Therefore it should still be one swim channel per transponder as always. Not sure where you heard the RB xbonder bandwidth was wider.
> 
> ...


Again I dont know why you think the lnb is deciding anything. It's not changing what's available from it ever.

The issue is what the receivers can actually see and receive and utilize and how. And we don't yet have those answers.

Not one person has ever shown that this lnb with any of these receivers can't get more than 13 right now. It's strictly been a boiler plate message that is there no matter what. Not an error.

Some have said when they tried different setups that they could get more than 13 but less than 21 so we know there's issues, but we know the swim didn't offer only 13 transponders either when these problem receives are connected.

We really seem to have two things IMHO that could be affecting it. One is if some receivers don't have the ability to tune all dswim freq right and another is we don't know how many dswim channels (and if they will need to be related somehow) are going to be taken for RB lnbs once they are broadcasting 4K channels on bonded transponders.

The lnb has a set number of channels that can be grabbed.

We know with 4K RB that number is going to increase but we don't yet know for sure how because it hasn't happened yet. I think we might start to find out these questions if they ever start using the RB lnb or maybe in the next generation of DVR. But who the heck knows when either of those things will happen...


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> Not one person has ever shown that this lnb with any of these receivers can't get more than 13 right now. It's strictly been a boiler plate message that is there no matter what. Not an error.


I've personally tested an HR34 with a 3D2RBLNB along with an HR44 and four HR24s.

An HR44 + 4x HR24s = 13 tuners.

If I connected the HR34 first, then HR44, and one HR24 (12 tuners), I was unable to add any more HR24s (no more swim channels available error).

If I connected the HR34 last, when the first 13 tuners were already in use, it gave error no swim channels available.

Then I replaced the HR34 with a HR54 and rebooted all receivers. HR54 (7 tuners) + HR44 (5 tuners) + 4x HR24s (8 tuners) = 20 tuners working. To ensure it was really working, I started 20 different channels recording on all receivers simultaneously.

Does that satisfy you that the HR34 (along with all D* and R* receivers, some H* receivers, and possibly the HR20) does not allow more than 13 tuners?


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

starcms said:


> No it doesn't explain anything. RB transponders use the same bandwidth as Ka transponders, 36 MHz wide. Therefore one swim channel will continue to be able to carry the contents of one transponder.
> 
> Transponder bonding works by bonding one of the HR54s regular 5 tuners to one of the reserved 2 tuners. Therefore, an HR54 will be able to record two 4k programs at once. For each 4k program it'll use one of the five regular tuners plus one of the two reserved tuners.
> 
> There is no reason at all that 4k would require an additional 8 tuners simply reserved or off limits. The two extra tuners/swim channels the HR54 takes when connected to a RB LNB (7 instead of 5) is everything needed for channel bonding. The 13 vs 21 tuner discussion has absolutely nothing to do with channel bonding and therefore has nothing to do with 4k.


Except that you are speculating a lot. One thing to remember is... how wide was swim freq? And then dswim? And vs transponders? Why do they need such large guards for swim channels on top of what the transponders already have built in. How do you know what the lnb can do with the stack plan?

One thing I'm 90% sure of based on how they do everything else with the genies.. there aren't two tuners reserved for 4K bonded transponders only. It'll be any two tuners. Not a big difference to the masses but a huge difference for this discussion. The reason is that means the 4K channels Could need to come from any of the swim channels bonded together not just certain ones at certain freq.

That goes along with what you said earlier about them not wanting to put anyone in a situation where the lnb may not work unless it's booted in the right order.

And look, there's something about the RB band that has them reserving a lot more tuners for some reason... because we haven't seen this message about the non RB dswim lnbs... or has that changed?


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

starcms said:


> I've personally tested an HR34 with a 3D2RBLNB along with an HR44 and four HR24s.
> 
> An HR44 + 4x HR24s = 13 tuners.
> 
> ...


Are you sure they where all different transponders? .

One thing we do know is the HR34 is different and older than most people realize by a long shot. So that doesn't surprise me. I want to believe the HR34 is the only issue and marketing said tell them everything older and in a different class. But they list all the others and 4K specifically. So there seems to be more to it.

Or this is just like them not supporting Ethernet jacks on any genie even though they work perfectly fine.... so they tell everyone it won't work...


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> Except that you are speculating a lot. One thing to remember is... how wide was swim freq? And then dswim? And vs transponders? Why do they need such large guards for swim channels on top of what the transponders already have built in. How do you know what the lnb can do with the stack plan?
> 
> One thing I'm 90% sure of based on how they do everything else with the genies.. there aren't two tuners reserved for 4K bonded transponders only. It'll be any two tuners. Not a big difference to the masses but a huge difference for this discussion. The reason is that means the 4K channels Could need to come from any of the swim channels bonded together not just certain ones at certain freq.
> 
> ...


Regarding first paragraph, each swim channel currently carriers one transponder. As the RB transponders are no wider than Ka transponders, nothing changes there.

Regarding second, I believe tuners 6 and 7 are coded in receiver firmware for only bonded use, but I could be wrong.

Regarding end of second, in other threads, it's already been discussed that bonded transponder pairs will most likely be the same freq, but opposite polarization. For example 99* RB xponder 1 will be bonded with xponder 2. From an engineering and design perspective, this would be the easiest to manage. This is speculation, regardless, I highly doubt they'll be bonding trsmsponders seemily randomly.

Regarding last, what do u mean RB has them reserving alot of tuners?

And to answer your other question regarding my test, I actually did check out the channel/transponder excel sheet and did ensure each of the 20 programs recording was each on a different transponder However, the HR34 is not the only receiver to only allow 13 tuners. Definitely all D* and R* receivers will force it to 13, older H* models will, and I believe the HR20, and even possibly the HR21-HR23 will force 13.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> Oh and your experiment also proves that the dswim RB lnb always has 21 tuners available and doesn't change that's based on what's connected to it.


How so?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

starcms said:


> Maybe more accurate to say if a STB only supports the lower 13 DSWM channels, it triggers the network (meaning the other receivers, not the LNB itself) to limit itself to 13 channels.


IMO, each STB is on his own here - no "cooperation" at all


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

starcms said:


> Regarding first paragraph, each swim channel currently carriers one transponder. As the RB transponders are no wider than Ka transponders, nothing changes there.
> 
> Regarding second, I believe tuners 6 and 7 are coded in receiver firmware for only bonded use, but I could be wrong.
> 
> ...


it is WAG definitely  doesn't matter of how you do believe in it

STB cannot force such limitation, it would limit itself to basic or extended features of DLNB


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bonding odd & even TPs seems the worst idea, where consecutive odd or even would be much simpler.

From some testing of the 5D2RB LNB:

Basic Specs:

14 SWM channels support 13 tuners (1 channel reserved for control guide)
(firmware supports 21 tuners unofficially)

No support for legacy devices (pre-D12/pre-H21 receivers)
[edit] I'd guess the HR series would follow the H ^ along with the 34.

(D12 and R16 receivers may experience errors with this LNB)

Using one TP for a 4K program isn't very efficient, so muxing more than one over more than one TP makes sense.

The RB package dates back to long before there was 4K, so in hindsight DirecTV may have wanted to use wider TPs if they'd known.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> bonding odd & even TPs seems the worst idea, where consecutive odd or even would be much simpler.
> 
> From some testing of the 5D2RB LNB:
> 
> ...


Why do you think bonding even and odd is a such a bad idea? I agree, consecutive odd or even would also be simple and straightforward to implement, but even and odd is at same frequency.

Btw, just to clarify what those specs say and your edit:

Legacy devices in this context means receivers that do not support swim at all (such as pre-d12/h21 as noted)

The HR series clearly does not fall into this category so your edit is based on misinterpreted info.

The question is why D12/R16 may have problems with the RB LNB according to DirecTV. Are those the two receivers that supported swim but not mrv and require one of those red blocking filters installed when being used on a network with mrv and internet? And why not include the H21 as well? I know there were three receivers that support swim but not mrv and require the filter that blocks all incoming and outgoing MoCA frequencies (mrv/internet). I'm almost sure it was the H21.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Why do you think bonding even and odd is a such a bad idea? I agree, consecutive odd or even would also be simple and straightforward to implement, but even and odd is at same frequency.
> 
> Btw, just to clarify what those specs say and your edit:
> 
> ...


You've got to think about the non SWiM RB LNB. bonding odd/even means the two are coming in on different coax and phasing comes into play that isn't an issue with bonded odd or even. A foot longer coax could raise hell.
If you're using two SWiM channels TP frequency is meaningless.

H20 receivers are SWiM compliant [along with D12s], but may not be able to work with DSWiM
You miss read the "pre" H21 so the 21,22/23,24 are complaint.
the D12 doesn't comply with DECA, so bandstop filters were needed as with the H20. The HR20 and up are/were DECA compliant and with a external DECA didn't need the bandstop filter.

These receivers may fall into the NDS [?] software/chipsets mentioned earlier.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

P Smith said:


> it is WAG definitely  doesn't matter of how you do believe in it
> 
> STB cannot force such limitation, it would limit itself to basic or extended features of DLNB


What is WAG?

Also I saw you posted this a page or two back:

I did analysis of communication between STB and DLNB and posted results... nobody remember ? Well, then WAG is coming like posted above a couple times  "

Do you have a link? And you had mentioned WAG then also.

So is your conclusion that WAG is what is responsible for limiting it to 13 swim channels with older receivers?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

WAG= wild a$$ guess


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

Ok I feel like an idiot lol


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

starcms said:


> Ok I feel like an idiot lol


 
I did explain how old/new *FW handling basic and extended features of DLNB Gen1/2*

BTW, I could open a master class for you how to send and interpret [some] FTM eg SWiM cmds  if you are willing get facts and drop producing WAGs


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

inkahauts said:


> So.....
> 
> 2 tuners for 4K.
> 
> ...


This crazy math here makes no sense! It is two tuners for 4K because they are (or rather will be, eventually) bonded, so you don't double again for the bonding. It is well established from FCC filings _and simply counting the number of transponders available in 99cr and 103cr_ _versus the available bandwidth_ that they are not double the bandwidth of Ka transponders but instead the same 36 MHz width that will fit just fine in the DSWM's 51.03 MHz wide channels.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> This crazy math here makes no sense! It is two tuners for 4K because they are (or rather will be, eventually) bonded, so you don't double again for the bonding. It is well established from FCC filings _and simply counting the number of transponders available in 99cr and 103cr_ _versus the available bandwidth_ that they are not double the bandwidth of Ka transponders but instead the same 36 MHz width that will fit just fine in the DSWM's 51.03 MHz wide channels.


Thank you for the backup! Its's been driving me crazy that some think the LNB will be limited from 21 to 13 tuners in order to allocate 8 tuners that are in some universe needed for 4k or xponder bonding.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> You've got to think about the non SWiM RB LNB. bonding odd/even means the two are coming in on different coax and phasing comes into play that isn't an issue with bonded odd or even. A foot longer coax could raise hell.
> If you're using two SWiM channels TP frequency is meaningless.
> 
> H20 receivers are SWiM compliant [along with D12s], but may not be able to work with DSWiM
> ...


Why would phasing be a problem for bonded transponders, but not for simply recording two programs at a time that happen to be located on odd/even transponders? The bonded transponders will be demodulated in exactly the same way non-bonded transponders currently are. The only difference is what the receiver does with the demodulated data.

I did a little searching of old dbstalk posts regarding NDS firmware, and back in the day several posters indicated that the H20 was also NDS, and the HR20 was the first one with Directv developed software. That helps explain why the H20 didn't get the HD interface.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

slice1900 said:


> Why would phasing be a problem for bonded transponders, but not for simply recording two programs at a time that happen to be located on odd/even transponders? The bonded transponders will be demodulated in exactly the same way non-bonded transponders currently are. The only difference is what the receiver does with the demodulated data.
> 
> I did a little searching of old dbstalk posts regarding NDS firmware, and back in the day several posters indicated that the H20 was also NDS, and the HR20 was the first one with Directv developed software. That helps explain why the H20 didn't get the HD interface.


I'm assuming that phasing would be a problem cause of timing. Two programs on an even/odd pair are two separate programs/bitstreams. Three 4k channels on 2 transponders is one bitstream. I'm assuming due to physics, the two could become slightly out of phase and then the total bitstream would be corrupted and unable to be decoded.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

starcms said:


> Thank you for the backup! Its's been driving me crazy that some think the LNB will be limited from 21 to 13 tuners in order to allocate 8 tuners that are in some universe needed for 4k or xponder bonding.


I don't think we can say I'm "backing you up" there. I've suggested before that the reason for the 13/21 thing might have to do with bonding, so Directv can claim it as a "13 tuner" LNB, and offer an "8 tuner" DVR, but the LNB would actually have 21 tuners and the DVR would actually have 16 tuners. It would use two tuners when watching a 4K channel, one tuner when watching an HD/SD channel, but would allow only recording 8 programs at once whether they are 4K or HD. I don't think Directv is going to want to confuse their customers with "4K program requires two tuners" fine print.

If what you're saying about the HR34 causing the RB LNB to drop down to 13 tuners can be confirmed by others, that blows the "NDS firmware" thing out of the water, as that is obviously not using NDS firmware. They may have started its development a long time as the HMC30 or whatever before it was released as the HR34, but it wasn't started before the HR20. It is obviously Directv software.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Thank you for the backup! Its's been driving me crazy that some think the LNB will be limited from 21 to 13 tuners in order to allocate 8 tuners that are in some universe needed for 4k or xponder bonding.


I don't claim to be an expert on the technicalities of all of this. Most of my comments had just been based on what had been posted earlier in the thread. But here is a question. If the 2 extra tuners in the HR54 are "dedicated' for 4K does that mean it needs both tuners to record a 4K show? If so, does that also mean that you will only be able to record one 4K show at a time? Because if it does need 2 tuners would it not also need two more for any other 4K show being watched/recorded at the same time? Guess I am just curious as to why there are 2 tuners "reserved" if only one is needed.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

starcms said:


> I'm assuming that phasing would be a problem cause of timing. Two programs on an even/odd pair are two separate programs/bitstreams. Three 4k channels on 2 transponders is one bitstream. I'm assuming due to physics, the two could become slightly out of phase and then the total bitstream would be corrupted and unable to be decoded.


OK that makes sense, when he said 'phasing' I was thinking he was talking about the RF itself causing interference, not thinking in terms of timing. I think they'd have to embed some sort of timing data in there even if both transponders in a bonded pair were on the same polarity. Otherwise Directv has to keep everything perfectly timed on THEIR end to insure they reach the customer end perfectly timed. While they certainly have the knowledge and means to do so, embedding timing info would make things simpler on both ends and remove any restrictions on the matching of bonded pairs. There are good reasons to think they might want to match odd/even transponders for bonding, unless something like this concern prevents it.

Given that the data rate of Directv's Ka and RB transponders is 30 million symbols/second, and light travels 300 million meters per second, and the speed of light through coax is about 2/3 of that, I think the difference in coax lengths for the different polarities would have to be over 10 feet to make a difference, so it shouldn't be a problem except in most cases, BUT could be a problem especially in MDUs where the different polarities are routed between floors to various amps, splitters, taps etc. so they couldn't ignore it.

They would need some type of timing reference embedded in the signal, and the software would match the timing info when combining the two demodulated data streams into one. I'll do a little checking and see if there is any documentation on how DVB-S2X implements bonding. I know Directv isn't using that, and instead doing it in software, but it would have similar timing concerns to address.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

poppo said:


> I don't claim to be an expert on the technicalities of all of this. Most of my comments had just been based on what had been posted earlier in the thread. But here is a question. If the 2 extra tuners in the HR54 are "dedicated' for 4K does that mean it needs both tuners to record a 4K show? If so, does that also mean that you will only be able to record one 4K show at a time? Because if it does need 2 tuners would it not also need two more for any other 4K show being watched/recorded at the same time? Guess I am just curious as to why there are 2 tuners "reserved" if only one is needed.


Way too early to guess on this. We are guessing that some 4K channels will be spread across two transponders. The HR54 can only record 5 things at a time. So, with "2 extra tuners" the HR54 should be able to record 2 4K channels out of 5 total simultaneous recordings.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

DVB-S2 supports two methods of timing reference. The ISSY field (input stream synchronization) which is a counter that can be appended to each TS packet, and is used to synchronize transport streams (i.e. if you had two programs that you wanted to insure stayed in sync with each other) at a cost of 1% to 1.5% for the 2 or 3 bytes added to the TS packet. The ISCR field (input stream clock reference) can also be appended to each TS packet, and is used to enforce constant delay / constant bit rate from end to end, again at a cost of 1% to 1.5% for the 2 or 3 bytes added.

DVB-S2X utilizes both ISSY and ISCR fields to synchronize transponders for bonding, and even supports bonding two or three transponders operating at a different bit rates, something Directv obviously won't need. Since these timing fields are a part of the DVB-S2 standard, even though DVB-S2X compliant chips would handle combining bonded transponders on-chip, Directv can continue using DVB-S2 and use the CPU to accomplish this.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

there is more on syncing - by MPEG design each PES has timestamps (relative) to manage buffers, do sync V and A if any discrepancy include delays, CE, TEI, etc


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> Why would phasing be a problem for bonded transponders, but not for simply recording two programs at a time that happen to be located on odd/even transponders? The bonded transponders will be demodulated in exactly the same way non-bonded transponders currently are. The only difference is what the receiver does with the demodulated data.


Since the signal traveling between the SWiM & receiver is still RF, phasing of two is still important.
DECA can be affected by a couple of inches, and the higher the frequency the shorter the wavelength.

Your "bit stream" is in the receiver


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> This crazy math here makes no sense! It is two tuners for 4K because they are (or rather will be, eventually) bonded, so you don't double again for the bonding. It is well established from FCC filings _and simply counting the number of transponders available in 99cr and 103cr_ _versus the available bandwidth_ that they are not double the bandwidth of Ka transponders but instead the same 36 MHz width that will fit just fine in the DSWM's 51.03 MHz wide channels.


Look it was late and I had interpreted VOS as basically suggesting the following...

First transponders to on and swim channels are to be looked at seeperately...

Two RB bonded transponders... for one station at a DVR...

If each RB transponder needed two swim channels for some reason on its own... then you'd need four swim channels for one bonded RB set of transponders... for one station...

So that's how I came up with the fuzzy math.

I agree it seems crazy since the bandwidth amounts for each transponder should easily fit within a swim channel... but who knows what else we don't know...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

There's a few things here that we do know when it comes to receivers.

The H 20 and all the SD equipment were made and created when NDS software was being used. The HR 20 was possibly developed in the beginning to nds requirements, I do not know that for sure, but I can tell you that once the HR 20 was released direcTV was programming it. So this is not simply a software question. I think it's a Hardware question and what specs the different boxes where designed with hardware wise. Because we also know that the HR 20 is quite different then any of the HR series physically in what it can do and what hardware is inside it.. Same with the H 21 and up vs the h20. 

We also know that the HR 34 is the first receiver designed that is swim only. That could easily be fundamentally different than say HR 44 and newer units that are swim only. Might even be very different than a h25. The HR 34 was likely originally designed before the HR 24 even came out.

So it's easy to see how different units based on when they were designed physically as well as some of the software being run on them could be impacting all of this. There are a lot of moving variables.

So one easy way for DIRECTV to not have to worry about these issues is to make a blanket statement that older stuff isn't supported on these RB lnbs beyond 13 tuners and be done with it. No confusion in that statement. No well this one model will work but these others that came latter won't etc...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

David Ortiz said:


> Way too early to guess on this. We are guessing that some 4K channels will be spread across two transponders. The HR54 can only record 5 things at a time. So, with "2 extra tuners" the HR54 should be able to record 2 4K channels out of 5 total simultaneous recordings.


You do need to understand how a Genie works. The genie does not assign any tuners to any specific function. Any particular tuner can be used either on the Genie itself or for a mini genie live tuner. Any tuner can be used for recording in the foreground or the background. It's totally universal.

I believe those other two tuners on the HR 54 are just as universal. Why wouldn't they be, and how could they not be, If you consider all different possibilities situation you could run into.

I believe quite simply that when a 4K channel is being tuned to it'll simply use two tuners instead of one. Any two tuners. I believe that the firmware in HR 54 simply knows to never try and record more than five stations at one time.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I'll dream for a moment... what if they're about to introduce the perfect box. A box that can record 14 channels at once. And at any given time up to seven of those channels can be 4K. And it'll support seven rooms. That would use all 21 tuners...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Look it was late and I had interpreted VOS as basically suggesting the following...


When you're "reverse engineering" [trying to read the fingerprints] you need to ask why....
the change from 7 to 5 tuners is fairly clear, the bandwidth of a tuner isn't large enough.

The change from 21 to 13 isn't quite as clear.
Are they bonding 4 TPs to maximize bandwidth to mux 4K programing for the optimal bandwidth usage? :shrug:
If so... then the Genie can record two 4K programs.

If you dig back through the BBS history, you'll find FCC docs going back to '07 [long before 4K] that required million dollar deposits to reserve the frequency band with a use it or lose it clause.

DirecTV launched packages for testing. What would happen if it didn't work? reconfigure the TPs/TWAs for "normal" usage? :shrug:

Once it was proved to work what do you do with it?
DirecTV had more capacity than they could use.
Enter 4K ....
How do you maximize your efficiency? :shrug:

In time we will find out.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> You do need to understand how a Genie works. The genie does not assign any tuners to any specific function. Any particular tuner can be used either on the Genie itself or for a mini genie live tuner. Any tuner can be used for recording in the foreground or the background. It's totally universal.
> 
> I believe those other two tuners on the HR 54 are just as universal. Why wouldn't they be, and how could they not be, If you consider all different possibilities situation you could run into.
> 
> I believe quite simply that when a 4K channel is being tuned to it'll simply use two tuners instead of one. Any two tuners. I believe that the firmware in HR 54 simply knows to never try and record more than five stations at one time.


Well the speculation is that the HR54's extra 2 SWM channels don't increase the number of live sessions to clients or maximum recordings. If so, what else but 4K could the extra channels be used for?

What is an interesting question is can an HR54 record 3 live 4K channels at once, now while 104-106 are on single transponders? If yes, then it will be interesting to see if that will continue in the future once 2 transponders are required per 4K channel.

My guess is that the HR54 is limited now to 2 simultaneous 4K live recordings.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> When you're "reverse engineering" [trying to read the fingerprints] you need to ask why....
> the change from 7 to 5 tuners is fairly clear, the bandwidth of a tuner isn't large enough.
> 
> The change from 21 to 13 isn't quite as clear.
> ...


I think the HR54 being limited to only one 4K program has to be an artificial limitation. Especially now when there is no bonding happening, there is no reason it couldn't supply three clients with 4K programming just like it can supply three clients with HD programming. It doesn't care what is in the stream it is sending out. However, since DECA bandwidth is limited, maybe they didn't want to risk overburdening it - especially since few customers will care about being limited to only one 4K stream from it when there is almost no 4K content today anyway. Going to MoCA 2.0 will address that bandwidth problem in the new hardware.

Phil Goswitz of Directv stated that they anticipated using a bit rate of about 30 Mbps for a 4K program, and would be combining two transponders to carry three 4K programs. Since the CONUS Ka transponders are configured for 40 Mbps, only a single 4K program could fit without bonding. In order to get 45 Mbps out of them, they'd have to tweak the FEC ratio slightly from what they use for CONUS Ka (use QPSK 3/4 instead of QPSK 1/2) but that's pretty simple to do.

In the original applications for reverse band, Directv talks about using it for 3D programming! !rolling


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> In the original applications for reverse band, Directv talks about using it for 3D programming! !rolling


"Yeah" these things are large [expensive] gambles that take years to come to fruit.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> When you're "reverse engineering" [trying to read the fingerprints] you need to ask why....
> the change from 7 to 5 tuners is fairly clear, the bandwidth of a tuner isn't large enough.
> 
> The change from 21 to 13 isn't quite as clear.
> ...


Don't quite follow you there on the last part.

The HR54 can already record 2 live 4k shows. Actually, it should be able to record up to 7 HD or 4k shows since transponder bonding isn't being used yet for 4k (but for sake of discussion, we know the HR54 is already programmed to only allow 5 simultaneous recordings), so it should be able to record 5 4k or HD programs currently.

But assuming transponder bonding is in use, the 2 extra tuners that the HR54 uses when connected to a RB LNB (7 instead of 5), would allow it to record 2 4k programs and 3 HD programs.

So why would additional bonding be needed for the HR54 to record 2 4k programs?

Also for those dreaming about a future receiver like myself, I think it would be idiotic of DirecTV to enable it to record as many 4k channels as HD channels. There's no need to be able to record even 5 4k shows simultaneously in the next 4 years. So I sincerely hope they don't waste swim channels on that. I'd much rather a receiver that could record 12 HD programs and 3 4k programs, but with 12 simultaneous recordings being the maximum. Then it would need (12 + 3) 15 swim channels. Or even better, 15 HD programs and 3 4k recordings, but with a maximum of 15 simultaneous recordings. Then you would use (15 + 3) = 18 swim channels.

My theoretical receiver that used 15 swim channels would work perfectly with a 16 tuner or two 8 tuner chips (15 + guide data) = 16.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

David Ortiz said:


> Well the speculation is that the HR54's extra 2 SWM channels don't increase the number of live sessions to clients or maximum recordings. If so, what else but 4K could the extra channels be used for?
> 
> What is an interesting question is can an HR54 record 3 live 4K channels at once, now while 104-106 are on single transponders? If yes, then it will be interesting to see if that will continue in the future once 2 transponders are required per 4K channel.
> 
> My guess is that the HR54 is limited now to 2 simultaneous 4K live recordings.


I don't think you understood my point so let me try saying it another way. I am saying the extra two tuners are identical as the other five and can do anything, but the box will never do more than 5 incoming channels at once, and up to two of them at the same time could be off bonded transponders, which would utilize those extra two tuners... Heck, we dont know for sure if there are two 4 tuner chips in these, or one 8 tuner chip in them, do we?

example...

start recording three hd channels on tuners 1 - 3, then add two 4k channels using tuners 4/5 and 6/7.

Or.. start recording two 4k channels on tuners 1/2 and tuners 3/4 then begin recording three more hd channels on tuners 5-7. It doesn't matter which tuner does what, they should be the same, the key is the box will never allow more than 5 total channels to be recorded or viewed at once, although two of them can be 4k channels...

My saying this goes back to the early days of clients when there was some discussion of the genie having two tuners dedicated to just it, and the other three used as a pool for clients. As we played with it, it was clear all tuners where identical in how they could be used in different combinations, so no two tuners are specifically tied to the genie.... its really best to look at a genie as a 5/7 tuner server and with a client built into it too, so that it is most versatile...


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> I don't think you understood my point so let me try saying it another way. I am saying the extra two tuners are identical as the other five and can do anything, but the box will never do more than 5 incoming channels at once, and up to two of them at the same time could be off bonded transponders, which would utilize those extra two tuners... Heck, we dont know for sure if there are two 4 tuner chips in these, or one 8 tuner chip in them, do we?


Actually we do. The HR44 (and I'm assuming HR34) has three 2 tuner chips. The HR54 has one 8 tuner chip.


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## David Ortiz (Aug 21, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I don't think you understood my point so let me try saying it another way. I am saying the extra two tuners are identical as the other five and can do anything, but the box will never do more than 5 incoming channels at once, and up to two of them at the same time could be off bonded transponders, which would utilize those extra two tuners... Heck, we dont know for sure if there are two 4 tuner chips in these, or one 8 tuner chip in them, do we?
> 
> example...
> 
> ...


I understand your point. I'm just not seeing where it is at odds with mine.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

starcms said:


> Don't quite follow you there on the last part.
> 
> The HR54 can already record 2 live 4k shows. Actually, it should be able to record up to 7 HD or 4k shows since transponder bonding isn't being used yet for 4k (but for sake of discussion, we know the HR54 is already programmed to only allow 5 simultaneous recordings), so it should be able to record 5 4k or HD programs currently.
> 
> ...


I don't really see why the need to limit the number of 4K channels that can be recorded. Why not just have it be you can record up to 1/2 the amount of Hi Definition channels... so do a 16 tuner box and let it record up to 8 4K. Done and done. (Or 15 and 7 if they don't use a dedicated guide tuner)


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> .... (Or 15 and 7 if they don't use a dedicated guide tuner)


You mean "Or 15 and 7 if they *use* a dedicated guide tuner?"

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> I don't really see why the need to limit the number of 4K channels that can be recorded. Why not just have it be you can record up to 1/2 the amount of Hi Definition channels... so do a 16 tuner box and let it record up to 8 4K. Done and done. (Or 15 and 7 if they don't use a dedicated guide tuner)


I see where you're coming from, but think of this. In the theoretical receiver I described, the total number of simultaneous recordings never changes. In your case, it does: for each 4k program you tune, you lose the ability to tune not one but two HD programs. Alot more confusing for the customer than X amount of total recordings with Y amount of 4k recordings allowed (same as it is now on the HR54).


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

While true if the upper limit is up to 7 4K and 15 Hi Definition I don't see that as worthly of consideration. If it wherent for sports five tuners is all anyone would need to record anything because of repeated and so forth. 

I'd prefer a 21 channel receiver which could do up to 10 4K. I mean why dream small right?

I do get your point though and I'm sure they might consider that as well. But from a practical standpoint I don't see it being an issue for years in the first place and then whoever is running into that kind of limit probably will be smart enough to understand the limitations. 

So recall this though... they did always used to tell you how many hours a DVR could record in both Hi Definition and SD. So they have felt with format limitations in some ways in the past and survived just fine.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Assuming Directv's future direction is all client/server, and standalone receivers are on the way out, they will have to support multiple servers. So why in the heck would you want a 21 channel server, and why should they make one that big? Wouldn't you rather have two or three smaller ones, so you aren't SOL if the one server dies or the hard drive in your one server flakes out?

I'm sure some people would whine if Directv came out with an 8 tuner DVR (whether that means 8 HD or 8 4K programs, or 8 HD or 4 4K programs) because "Dish has a 16 tuner DVR", but honestly you gain absolutely nothing having the bigger one. If they put an 8 tuner chip into the new server (allowing 7 HD or 3 4K + 1 HD programs) you could fit three of them on a 21 tuner LNB.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> Assuming Directv's future direction is all client/server, and standalone receivers are on the way out, they will have to support multiple servers. So why in the heck would you want a 21 channel server, and why should they make one that big? Wouldn't you rather have two or three smaller ones, so you aren't SOL if the one server dies or the hard drive in your one server flakes out?
> 
> I'm sure some people would whine if Directv came out with an 8 tuner DVR (whether that means 8 HD or 8 4K programs, or 8 HD or 4 4K programs) because "Dish has a 16 tuner DVR", but honestly you gain absolutely nothing having the bigger one. If they put an 8 tuner chip into the new server (allowing 7 HD or 3 4K + 1 HD programs) you could fit three of them on a 21 tuner LNB.


Actually I'd prefer one DVR and all clients. But be able To connect my own external USB drive and set it to auto backup shows and let them be transferable to a new DVR. Done and done.

I watch a lot of sports and record a lot
If superfluous things I may or may not even watch to go along with the stuff I do watch. I need a lot of tuners though just because of sports. I have 13 local sports teams I like to be able to watch. One of the. Every game for sure, several just about every game and several that I catch when I can but want it recorded so I have the option.

And I don't yet trust dtv enough to think they will support multiple servers yet. Till I see it I don't believe it. Hopefully the regime change will lead to that with the new hardware... but I don't see it.

But really one DVR and all clients has a lot of advantages unless they are going to build a collaborative system that allows you to adjust all series recordings etc across all servers. And shared guide etc. And I don't see that happening either. Frankly it should be simpler and one giant dvr is simpler if it's done right in every way. And based on history dtv has a much better shot of doing that right then doing multiple server integration right.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

DTV's future STB is interesting subject and must have own dedicated thread - would you open one, please ?

:backtotop:
thank you


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

Alot of smart people in this thread so here goes:

I've observed the following on a 3D2RB and now the same on 5D2RB. Honestly not sure if it was present with my 13 tuner Gen1 DSWM LNB or the legacy LNB connected to a SWM16 multiswitch. 

I replaced the reflector (cause a firework dented it) and installed the 3D2RB about 3 months ago. I had to re-aim/dither the dish, but as you'll see below my signal strength are excellent. 

Assuming clear or pretty clear skies, I always get 98-100 on all 101* Ku tuners, and 95-97 on 103* Ka (103ca and 103cb), and now with the 5D2RB, get 97 at 110* Ku and 100 at 119* Ku. Always solid, no fluctuations. 

However, 99* Ka (99ca, 99cb) behaves depending on the time of day. Late at night and very early in the morning, I get 95+ on all 99* Ka transponders. However, during the day, some of those 99* transponders drop to as low as 89, with others still at 95+. 

At first I thought it was a heat issue with the 3D2RB, but the 5D2RB behaves exactly the same. My only guess is the piece of coax from the LNB to the Swim splitter (approx 20 feet) is old and leaking RF on hot days. But with swim, that seems like it would affect all transponders, not just those from 99*. 

Anyone else experience this? Any ideas why?

Also, I prefer to keep every transponder at 94 or 95 strength or better. Would the drop of signal strength on 99* from 95 to 89 present an issue with rain fade?

This repeats every day like clockwork. Late night/early morning: 95+ on all xponders. During the day, always a drop in only 99* signal strength by approx 5 (drop of signal strength from 95 to 90). But again, it doesn't affect all transponders on 99*, but the same random ones that make up 1/3 to 1/2 of all 99* xponders.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

I dont see it being the coax as you are transmitting SWM frequencies there and there is no connection to what satellite/transponder you are on. It definitely sounds like something in the 99 reception area of the LNB but for 2 to have the same issue is unbelievable


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

First off the percentages are directly related to CNR values and while it isn't linear a 1% change is ≈ 0.2 dB

What happens if you focus on the lowest tp on 99 when you dither?


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> First off the percentages are directly related to CNR values and while it isn't linear a 1% change is ≈ 0.2 dB
> 
> What happens if you focus on the lowest tp on 99 when you dither?


To dither, I followed the official instructions and dithered based only on 101. Didn't even have to fine-tune the tilt for 110 and 119.

But since 99* has all xponders at 95+ at night, wouldn't that eliminate any kind of alignment issues? And I'm getting such excellent numbers on all transponders on all sats (95+ except during the day when some 99* xponders drop to 89+ (some even, some odd, seems random, but always the same transponders affected)), with approx half of the 99* xponders still 95+ during the day).

Doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, assuming a 1% change is approx 0.2dB, then a 5% drop (for example signal strength from 95 to 90), would be approximately a 1dB drop. How significant is 1dB in this case? Would a xponder at 90 drop signal due to rain fade noticibly faster/easiee than one at 95?

I guess my main question just out if curiosity is why it's happening, but also are my signal strengths good? Even with a xponder or two at 90 signal strength during the day, but with all other Ka at 95+ and all Ku at 98+ (Im not including RB in this discussion, which is in the high 80s to low 90s, because DirecTV isn't transmitting RB at full signal strength yet)


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

How/where is your dish mounted? Could something be contracting/expanding during the night/day causing the dish to actually be moving a bit? I seem to recall someone having that problem a long time ago.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

Your signals are great. That extra dB at night imght give you 10 more seconds when a thunderstorm moves in. I think poppo might be on to something as that is the only reasonable thing to cause your issue,


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

poppo said:


> How/where is your dish mounted? Could something be contracting/expanding during the night/day causing the dish to actually be moving a bit? I seem to recall someone having that problem a long time ago.


This is the first thing that makes any sense.

It's mounted to my roof (which has maybe a 30 degree pitch or less), right on the edge close to the gutter. But all mounting bolts and support poles go into roof. When I recently replaced the reflector, I made sure everything was tight.

Could the dish/reflector itself be flexing slightly in the heat? There are absolutely no obstructions between dish and sky. But why only affect 99? It seems like it would affect 103* as well, for the worse or maybe even for the better, but 103* and everything else is solid as a rock night and day except for a thunderstorm.

Edit: Could even the roof itself be flexing during the day?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

cabling,roof, bolts, reflector/etc warping during night hours must affect all sats reading

IMO, it would be an issue inside of particular part of LNBF block, reacting to temperature or/and moisture changes - perhaps both of your DLNBs mfg same way


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

P Smith said:


> cabling,roof, bolts, reflector/etc warping during night hours must affect all sats reading
> 
> IMO, it would be an issue inside of particular part of LNBF block, reacting to temperature or/and moisture changes - perhaps both of your DLNBs mfg same way


Well, I know quite a few here are on the 3D2RB and a couple on the 5D2RB. Can anyone confirm similar readings? Lower 99* readings during day vs night?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Well, I know.....


If the dish mounting is secure, checking the 99 dither off the lowest tp will tell you if you can get a better CNR.

You can follow the DirecTV instructions or go one better, it's your option.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> If the dish mounting is secure, checking the 99 dither off the lowest tp will tell you if you can get a better CNR.
> 
> You can follow the DirecTV instructions or go one better, it's your option.


Do you have a link for instructions for this, or is it the same as the official dither method from DirecTV, but performed when looking at a 99* xponder instead of a 101* one?

Also, assuming you are following DirecTV's official method of dithering from 101*, if you are slightly off perfect dither, would that make 99* and 103* both weaker than max possible, or would it actually make one weaker while helping the other achieve max signal strength?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Do you have a link for instructions for this, or is it the same as the official dither method from DirecTV, but performed when looking at a 99* xponder instead of a 101* one?
> 
> Also, assuming you are following DirecTV's official method of dithering from 101*, if you are slightly off perfect dither, would that make 99* and 103* both weaker than max possible, or would it actually make one weaker while helping the other achieve max signal strength?


You're asking for a link to my brain !rolling

Think of the 101 as being a silver dollar, and the 99/103 as a nickle.
Which one would be harder to hit?

An antenna's beamwidth is determined by finding the -3 dB point of bother sides.
"Dithering" isn't any different, but you divide by 2 to find the center.
You can change the "-3 dB" to any percentage value as long at you use the same value for both sides.

Since the percentages aren't linear starting with a lower value is more effective than higher.

I like to detune to 70"ish" which [IIRC] was around 7 turns of the fine adjuster and so half way was 3.5 turns.

"You know" if you're on the lowest that all the others will be good.

If you follow these steps with 99 and find your 103 has dropped [I've never seen it btw] then your tilt is slightly off.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> You're asking for a link to my brain !rolling
> 
> Think of the 101 as being a silver dollar, and the 99/103 as a nickle.
> Which one would be harder to hit?
> ...


Though of note, my "anonymous" engineer friend, when he worked in the DIRECTV ODU lab with the team along with mfrs. that originally developed the Slimline-5 ODU stated the problem with trying to peak on Ka;



> Peaking on the Ka satellites like 103deg was explored and in the end, the only viable procedure was peaking on 101, then checking 119 to make sure the dish was aligned with the arc, then fine tuning 101. The problem with peaking on a Ka sat (which has a narrower beam width and potentially more accuracy) was depending on where you are in the US, the 99 and 103 slots may appear closer together or farther apart introducing more error. By precisley peaking on 101 you reduce the errors to a minimum and the procedure goes vey fast with a little practice.


.

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

Does tilt have any effect with a SL3 type (99/101/103) LNB? Or only needed for 110 and 119?

I've never seen the official instructions for peaking a SL3 LNB.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> Though of note, my "anonymous" engineer friend, when he worked in the DIRECTV ODU lab with the team along with mfrs. that originally developed the Slimline-5 ODU stated the problem with trying to peak on Ka;


I haven't seen/had the problem on both coasts.

It might have something to do with me knowing what I'm doing !rolling

I can see issues in AK & HI

If I'm doing a 5 lnb I start with 101 for course, then check 119 for tilt.
With these set, I fine tune off the farthest Ka

I have yet to have any need to adjust the tilt more than the listed for a 3 LNB.

I've worked with good engineers and others that were dumber than a box of rocks.

I do what works, which comes from doing, playing with, and finding the best solution

BTW what were they using to measure Ka?

There weren't any meters that were common back when the AT9 & AU9 first came out.
Then there's the question about the first being Spaceways.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Does tilt have any effect with a SL3 type (99/101/103) LNB? Or only needed for 110 and 119?
> 
> I've never seen the official instructions for peaking a SL3 LNB.


Your tilt setting [or how plumb the mast is] has to be off "a whole lot" for the 4º delta of the 99/103 to be affected.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> I haven't seen/had the problem on both coasts.
> 
> It might have something to do with me knowing what I'm doing !rolling
> 
> ...


The farthest Ka?

Also, what's the best figures you've seen for Ka? I get 99 on one xponder on 103ca, 98 on two on 103ca/cb, vast majority at 95-97, with no lower than 95 (at night). But my numbers on 103* are always 1 or 2 points higher than 99* (highest transponder on 99* is 97), even at night when not experiencing the issue mentioned before. Is that a slight alignment problem or just what is typically seen (103 very slightly higher than 99)?

If it is alignment problem: the one thing I can't figure out with dish pointing: Say you are turning the dish right and that is increasing 99. Would 103 also be increasing or would it be decreasing? I've never looked at Ka while tuning, only after to check.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> The farthest Ka?
> 
> Also, what's the best figures you've seen for Ka? I get 99 on one xponder on 103ca, 98 on two on 103ca/cb, vast majority at 95-97, with no lower than 95 (at night). But my numbers on 103* are always 1 or 2 points higher than 99* (highest transponder on 99* is 97), even at night when not experiencing the issue mentioned before. Is that a slight alignment problem or just what is typically seen (103 very slightly higher than 99)?
> 
> If it is alignment problem: the one thing I can't figure out with dish pointing: Say you are turning the dish right and that is increasing 99. Would 103 also be increasing or would it be decreasing? I've never looked at Ka while tuning, only after to check.


On the west coast it's 99 & on the east coast it's 103
With your location 99 should be slightly closer, but I'm guessing it simply isn't aligned as well as it could be. [this could explain why two LNBs have the same issue]
103 shouldn't change, but check it after tweaking 99.

You'll drive yourself nuts worrying about 1 or 2 points.
If you had an AIM [meter] you could watch the CNR peak and know "that's all there is".
Not every tp has the same CNR.
Not every tp has the CNR stay the same [over time].
There's a lot going on in the SAT. [switches, TWTs, transponders, and backups]


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> On the west coast it's 99 & on the east coast it's 103
> With your location 99 should be slightly closer, but I'm guessing it simply isn't aligned as well as it could be. [this could explain why two LNBs have the same issue]
> 103 shouldn't change, but check it after tweaking 99.
> 
> ...


Thanks a bunch for the detailed answer.

I'll have to get up there and look at it. So you recommend setting the receiver to show the signal strength on the weakest xponder on either 99ca or 99cb, and then simply adjust the azimuth and elevation to peak it? Basically, no dithering in the process? Just peak 99 and everything else should fall into place? Peaking 99 in this method shouldn't lower 103 levels?

Lastly: CNR= carrier to noise ratio? I'm assuming similar but different than SNR. Anyway, the AIM meter either has a database or can somehow detect what the maximum possible CNR is for each transponder although the max possible CNR differs among transponders?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Thanks a bunch for the detailed answer.
> 
> I'll have to get up there and look at it. So you recommend setting the receiver to show the signal strength on the weakest xponder on either 99ca or 99cb, and then simply adjust the azimuth and elevation to peak it? Basically, no dithering in the process? Just peak 99 and everything else should fall into place? Peaking 99 in this method shouldn't lower 103 levels?
> 
> Lastly: CNR= carrier to noise ratio? I'm assuming similar but different than SNR. Anyway, the AIM meter either has a database or can somehow detect what the maximum possible CNR is for each transponder although the max possible CNR differs among transponders?


SNR (basically) = CNR since "signal = carrier"
With only 1 signal it's SNR, but with a group they call it carrier [of channels].

If you have access to an AIM, why use anything else?
Dithering is always good, though the amount you dither may change [if you have the AIM].
If you're using a receivers "detune" each side a fair amount [my 70ish]

When you tune back [with either] you should see the center peak and if you count the turns and divide by 2, a quarter turn either way should really change anything.
When you say "adjust the azimuth and elevation" I hope you're talking about the fine adjusters.
I do my course A & E with the mast clamp & EL scale off 101.

I expect one of these:
99 comes up & 103 stays the same.
99 doesn't change & 103 doesn't either

You screwed up and have no signal !rolling


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Premt said:


> Your expectations are more in line with what will be coming out, the specs below are what I'm seeing for the new server but there are references to two server environments.
> 15+1 Tuners
> 7 HD streams/recordings or 5 HD + 2 4K recordings as well as 2 transcode streams for mobile dvr.
> 2 TB hard drive with external hard drive support
> Integrated wireless video bridge.


How do you know this if I may ask?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Premt said:


> Employee


Oh, interesting...

Thanks for the contribution, but hope you don't get into any trouble for revealing inside info.

Don't quite understand the tuner numbers though...

15+1 tuners for 7 HD recordings max. or 5 HD + 2 4K channels max.?

Assuming channel bonding for 4K, that would only come to 9 tuners +1 for the guide data wouldn't it?

Sent from my LGMS550 using Tapatalk


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

If I where to just stare at that and guess what it might really mean if it was slightly twisted, Id guess... 

15 hd channels, or 13 if two are 4k channels.

Support up to 7 tvs at once... 

This would put it very much in line with the hopper 3. I dont think theres a lot of difference between 15 and 16 tuners to the public... But the support of up to seven rooms would be a big deal just as it is for the hopper 3.

The wvb and larger hard drive with external hard drive support and multiple mobile dvr streams are particularly interesting too IMHO.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

Premt said:


> Your expectations are more in line with what will be coming out, the specs below are what I'm seeing for the new server but there are references to two server environments.
> 15+1 Tuners
> 7 HD streams/recordings or 5 HD + 2 4K recordings as well as 2 transcode streams for mobile dvr.
> 2 TB hard drive with external hard drive support
> Integrated wireless video bridge.


If that's true, it's extremely, extremely disappointing. I was hoping for Google's next "Genie" to be able to record at least 10 shows simultaneously. If this is true, it's only an increase from 5 to 7. Very disappointing. Definitely no where near enough to even consider changing an HR2x with a Genie Mini. And with the HR24 not seeming to ever have a replacement coming, the vast majority of homes will be limited to 7 simultaneous recordings. Sure, it's better than 5 on the HR34/44/54, but not better than an HR54 + three HR24s.

I was really hoping for at least 10 if not 12 to 15 simultaneous recordings. Doesn't Dish's new receiver record 15 or 16 simultaneously and have an amazing GUI?

Lastly, as HoTaT pointed out, your tuner math doesn't make sense to me either


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

starcms said:


> If that's true, it's extremely, extremely disappointing. I was hoping for Google's next "Genie" to be able to record at least 10 shows simultaneously. If this is true, it's only an increase from 5 to 7. Very disappointing. Definitely no where near enough to even consider changing an HR2x with a Genie Mini. And with the HR24 not seeming to ever have a replacement coming, the vast majority of homes will be limited to 7 simultaneous recordings. Sure, it's better than 5 on the HR34/44/54, but not better than an HR54 + three HR24s.
> 
> I was really hoping for at least 10 if not 12 to 15 simultaneous recordings. Doesn't Dish's new receiver record 15 or 16 simultaneously and have an amazing GUI?
> 
> Lastly, as HoTaT pointed out, your tuner math doesn't make sense to me either


Hopper 3 can record 16 channels, or actually 19 if four of them are all your local networks. I dont know if Id call the gui amazing, I haven't played with it myself.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Premt said:


> Not exactly my tuner math as I didn't come up with this,I'm just the messenger. My assumption with D* they have lower bitrates so they can fit more streams/recordings on a dvr without compromising on price.


No, not really.... That actually has nothing to do with it to be honest. If you spec out the AV hard drives these days they are insane what they can handle for simultaneous streams. I think the info needs to be a little more vetted for accuracy, it just doesn't add up quite right to make any sense.


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## Premt (Mar 16, 2016)

inkahauts said:


> No, not really.... That actually has nothing to do with it to be honest. If you spec out the AV hard drives these days they are insane what they can handle for simultaneous streams.
> 
> I wonder if you got slightly off info there. Cant see why they would ever put in 16 tuners if they maxed their usage out at 7. they'd use one 8 tuner and one 2 tuner... I can see them wanting to support 7 rooms liek the hopper 3, and then 15 tuners total as a pool on the server... That would add up a bit more


The information I provided is from a comparison chart between the new server, hopper 3 and 2 other competitor dvr 's. It specifically says 7 vs 16 when it comes to server vs hopper.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Premt said:


> The information I provided is from a comparison chart between the new server, hopper 3 and 2 other competitor dvr 's. It specifically says 7 vs 16 when it comes to server vs hopper.


Well then they better break tradition and let people have more than one.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> SNR (basically) = CNR since "signal = carrier"
> With only 1 signal it's SNR, but with a group they call it carrier [of channels].
> 
> If you have access to an AIM, why use anything else?
> ...


Ok, so basically dither like normal, but use the lowest transponder at 99 instead of 101 while doing so?

I don't have access to an AIM lol. I was just curious how it could determine the maximum possible CNR for each individual tuner if each is different. Measuring the CNR is simple, but how can it measure the maximum possible CNR?

Also, from reading random threads online, it seems that 99 is slightly harder to tune than 103. If that is true, why?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

starcms said:


> Also, from reading random threads online, it seems that 99 is slightly harder to tune than 103. If that is true, why?


that would be if you're on the west coast.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Seems to me like 7 simultaneous recording tuners and 8 simultaneous live tuners will be more than enough for 99.99% of households. Just my .02.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

HoTat2 said:


> Oh, interesting...
> 
> Thanks for the contribution, but hope you don't get into any trouble for revealing inside info.
> 
> ...


Well, if it is 15+1 tuners that means two 8 tuner chips so that part makes sense. 7 HD recordings max would make sense if they were calling it 7 "tuners", but then I would expect you would not be limited to recording only 2 4K channels. That may not be a limitation today, but during the expected lifetime of a new device it probably would become one.

Though maybe that's a limitation that only applies today - there are only two 4K channels that are available, with a third occasionally added for special events so it would be hard for testers to record 7 4K channels at once!

As for the 7 < Dish's 16, who cares? I think there's a 99% chance they'll support more than one of these on the same account. If they don't, they are going to need to design a new standalone receiver and new standalone DVR.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Hopper 3 can record 16 channels, or actually 19 if four of them are all your local networks. I dont know if Id call the gui amazing, I haven't played with it myself.


I've got a Hopper 3 and I wouldn't call the GUI amazing, but it is certainly better than the older GUI and D*'s current one by a long shot. Does take a little getting used to because it is so different in many respects.

As to the D* future DVR, sounds like good moves in the right direction, assuming they do some GUI work with it. From the company perspective I would think having a 'server' that could feed itself and 6 Minis it would represent a good implementation to replace the current Genie+some amount of HR2x DVRs. Not sure I fully understand the tuner count for it though. Confusing to me.

Sent from my Google Chromebook Pixel (2015) using Tapatalk


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

Steve said:


> Seems to me like 7 simultaneous recording tuners and 8 simultaneous live tuners will be more than enough for 99.99% of households. Just my .02.


This is how I see it, limiting the number of recordings so there are always tuners available for many clients. Also, 7 recordings will cover 99.99% of households (excluding the people on this forum  )


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

longrider said:


> This is how I see it, limiting the number of recordings so there are always tuners available for many clients. Also, 7 recordings will cover 99.99% of households (excluding the people on this forum  )


And for people like me that would be nothing more than a giant massive waste of seven tuners. I want to record everything I watch. Plus one of the big things with minis is they work like a DVR, you can pause and record what you are watching. Locking seven tuners up for just live tv on clients would destroy that ability.

I still don't by it, and think there is something missing in all this info. And why did he delete a lot of his posts?


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## Premt (Mar 16, 2016)

inkahauts said:


> And for people like me that would be nothing more than a giant massive waste of seven tuners. I want to record everything I watch. Plus one of the big things with minis is they work like a DVR, you can pause and record what you are watching. Locking seven tuners up for just live tv on clients would destroy that ability.
> I still don't by it, and think there is something missing in all this info. And why did he delete a lot of his posts?


I always delete posts of this nature, you certainly don't have to take my word for it, customer trials start in the spring and general availability is later on in the year.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

Premt said:


> I always delete posts of this nature, you certainly don't have to take my word for it, customer trials start in the spring and general availability is later on in the year.


However, I dont see what use deleting the posts is, they have been quoted multiple times so if you are concerned about violating an NDA there is still plenty of evidence.


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## Premt (Mar 16, 2016)

longrider said:


> However, I dont see what use deleting the posts is, they have been quoted multiple times so if you are concerned about violating an NDA there is still plenty of evidence.


I'm aware, not worried about that I was doing it more for the person asking not to derail the thread.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Premt said:


> I'm aware, not worried about that I was doing it more for the person asking not to derail the thread.


I wouldn't worry about p smith. He's not a moderator. And this is somewhat related because we are trying to figure out how this all works together and fits long term..


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Premt said:


> I always delete posts of this nature, you certainly don't have to take my word for it, customer trials start in the spring and general availability is later on in the year.


You need to learn how to delete a post then, because all you did was edit out your reply and left the quoted part.

Had you not "messed up" your posts, as a mod, I was going to break out the posts into a new thread


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

The 5D2RB project lives on.
Reworked my setup this weekend and all 21 (tuners) or at least video from each box is working. 
The HR20s did auto detect a 22 tuner DSWM lnb but the RB/INTN box was "none". They all came up as Dual tuners.
The HR20 on the setup menu when clicked "reset defaults" changed the RB/INTN box correctly to RB.
The HR54 detected all parameters correctly the first time.
The H21 (thought it was an H24 till I checked) has only two drop down boxes on setup but did correctly detect 22 tuner DSWM LNB

Now to try to record 21 different transponders.
I've reprinted my trusty SAT/TPN/Channel grid and will try tonight to start recording on the HR20's and see if I can get past 13 tuners.

As an aside , I bought an AIM 1.5 meter and updated to the latest database 0043.
What's interesting is that on running a SWM channel test at the LNB EIV for DSWM fails and on review Chs 2 and 10 fail with X's.

Is this a faulty LNB or something else. I have a short RG6 cable from LNB to meter as the only other equipment. It passes a simple cable check (didn't do on the AIM meter yet). Used a Turbo S2 Allied Instrument meter in the past so no experience with the AIM.
It is curious to me that if you try to "check" the system, saying your at the Receiver it only highligts 13 channels not 22 like at the LNB.

This seems to point to a imposed limit rather than an actual system limit

Doctor j


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## tomspeer46 (Nov 17, 2011)

Doctor J -
I am curious if you have detected anything related to boot order. Can you bring up the HR20's and H21 last without a problem? How about when you bring them up first? Others have indicated, for instance, that if you bring up an HR34 first, it limits the system to 13 tuners.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

tomspeer46 said:


> Doctor J -
> I am curious if you have detected anything related to boot order. Can you bring up the HR20's and H21 last without a problem? How about when you bring them up first? Others have indicated, for instance, that if you bring up an HR34 first, it limits the system to 13 tuners.


Everything installed but haven't found time to sequentially record programs and define capabilities.
Work will interfere with my hobby for a couple of days but will report results SOON.
Doctor j


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## tomspeer46 (Nov 17, 2011)

doctor j said:


> Everything installed but haven't found time to sequentially record programs and define capabilities.
> Work will interfere with my hobby for a couple of days but will report results SOON.
> Doctor j


I am pretty sure that if all of the receivers are reporting 21 (22) tuners, there should be no problem, from my experience and what others have reported. If each receiver can allocate its quota of SWM channels, then it should work. I was interested in the HR-20s because they are older than some and people have reported that having an HR34 limits the system to 13 tuners.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

Is anyone else curious as to why on the receivers and AIM 1.5 meter, it is referred to either 13 or 22 channels (instead of 21)?

It's already been proven that the 3D1LNB (the Gen 1, 13 tuner DSWM LNB) can indeed output 13 channels (plus obviously the guide channel). 

I don't believe anyone who has tested a DSWM Gen 2 LNB (either 3D2LNB, 3D2RBLNB, or 5D2RBLNB) has had enough receivers to test all 21 or possibly 22 tuners. I could only test 18. 

Anyone else find it possible that the Gen2 DSWM LNBs actually can output 22 channels (plus the guide channel)? Why else label them like this? To cause even more confusion?


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

doctor j said:


> The 5D2RB project lives on....
> 
> As an aside , I bought an AIM 1.5 meter and updated to the latest database 0043.
> What's interesting is that on running a SWM channel test at the LNB EIV for DSWM fails and on review Chs 2 and 10 fail with X's.
> ...


Instead of running the EIV, can you pull up the signal strength of each DSWM channel? If so, what does it show for 2 and 10 (and the rest)? Do you have a 3D2RBLNB to connect and run the LNB EIV on?

Also, when you check the system, how does it know if you are at the LNB or the receiver? You tell it? What difference would it make where you are? I guess I don't understand what it's checking in this part. But regardless, very interesting about the difference in reported tuners based on location; it's definitely starting to look like a system (receiver) imposed limit.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

starcms said:


> Is anyone else curious as to why on the receivers and AIM 1.5 meter, it is referred to either 13 or 22 channels (instead of 21)?
> 
> It's already been proven that the 3D1LNB (the Gen 1, 13 tuner DSWM LNB) can indeed output 13 channels (plus obviously the guide channel).
> 
> ...


There was someone who tested one of the 3D2 LNBs a while back and they were 21 tuners, not 22.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

starcms said:


> Is anyone else curious as to why on the receivers and AIM 1.5 meter, it is referred to either 13 or 22 channels (instead of 21)?
> 
> It's already been proven that the 3D1LNB (the Gen 1, 13 tuner DSWM LNB) can indeed output 13 channels (plus obviously the guide channel).
> 
> ...


it would be nice of you if you would dig the thread and prev one (DSWIM 13 tuners), that would help you be on same plate with other posters ...
perhaps the post would be helpful ...
http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/220252-first-look-directv-21-tuner-3d2-swm-lnb/page-2#entry3401438


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> There was someone who tested one of the 3D2 LNBs a while back and they were 21 tuners, not 22.


I tested the 3D2 and it was 21 tuners.....


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

texasbrit said:


> I tested the 3D2 and it was 21 tuners.....


Did you ever do a similar test on the 3DR? I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be the same, but I don't know if anyone ever did like you did and packed a 3DR with 21 tuners all on different transponders and tried to add a 22nd.

It is too bad there isn't a way to tell the SWM to share transponders, then when I eventually replace the H20s I could get rid of the amp, PI, splitters and switches and use a DSWM LNB. That would actually make sense for almost any use other than a large MDU. The odds of any individual residence or sports bar needing to tune more than 21 transponders are pretty much zero no matter how many TVs they have! But I won't hold my breath for this to ever be an option


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm pretty sure each SWiM channel monopolized after finished negotiation by each STB and wouldn't share with other; it would be huge mess, if one of sharing the channel STB would ask to tune to other tpn while other STB still need same as before


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

P Smith said:


> I'm pretty sure each SWiM channel monopolized after finished negotiation by each STB and wouldn't share with other; it would be huge mess, if one of sharing the channel STB would ask to tune to other tpn while other STB still need same as before


I realize the SWM would have to keep track of what receivers have what channels and be able to reallocate them. If they wanted to they could make it work, but there's no way they'd go to that amount of effort when they have the legacy LNB + switches solution available. Like I said, I know it won't happen just wishful thinking


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

As I posted, it used to be that way when the SWM8 first came out. Several of us tested and managed to get 13 or 14 tuners all running on the SWM8 as long as they didn't ask for more than 8 different transponders. I don't know when that changed.


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## starcms (Feb 7, 2008)

P Smith said:


> it would be nice of you if you would dig the thread and prev one (DSWIM 13 tuners), that would help you be on same plate with other posters ...
> perhaps the post would be helpful ...
> http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/220252-first-look-directv-21-tuner-3d2-swm-lnb/page-2#entry3401438


Thanks, that does kinda help...in making me think the 3DR can output 22 channels while the 3D2 can only output 21...

But to your main point, I have tried to read every post in every thread regarding this topic, but when combined with keeping up with other DirecTV threads on different topics, it's easy to either miss some posts or honestly forget them.

That does help though, especially when combined with the screenshot at the top of the page which really seems to indicate the 3DR can output 22 programming channels in addition to the one guide channel.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

5D2RB Followup.

Ignored the warnings re 13 tuners.
Loaded a bunch of boxes including an HR54 . Mostly vintage HR-20's.
2 Tuners excluded for "4K" by HR54. Some H2* non DVRs.

Didn't seem to matter order of recording.
Using my trusty SAT/TPN/CH grid to confirm unique TPN for each channel recording, I can say that 18 different programs were recording without any hiccups. No error messages. Went back and forth over a hour or more and confirmed all recordings intact.

I cannot evoke any Tuner limit given the 21 tuners, 18 recordable that I have available.
End of my story

Doctor j


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> Did you ever do a similar test on the 3DR? I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be the same, but I don't know if anyone ever did like you did and packed a 3DR with 21 tuners all on different transponders and tried to add a 22nd.
> 
> It is too bad there isn't a way to tell the SWM to share transponders, then when I eventually replace the H20s I could get rid of the amp, PI, splitters and switches and use a DSWM LNB. That would actually make sense for almost any use other than a large MDU. The odds of any individual residence or sports bar needing to tune more than 21 transponders are pretty much zero no matter how many TVs they have! But I won't hold my breath for this to ever be an option


No, I don't have enough equipment to do this any more...


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