# Started the journey to replace all my bulbs with LEDs



## dmspen

Last week, two incandescent bulbs failed in my house. Of course I had no spares as they are no longer sold in California. I had one CFL lying around.
I then decided maybe it was time to start upgrading to LEDs. I purchased 6 Cree 60 watt 2100K bulbs (warm light) from Amazon and put them in the places we use light most - Living Room and my daughter's room.
My biggest hurdle will be replacing all the recessed lighting in the kitchen. 24 recessed lights. Cost per bulb is around $20. Yikes! I know they will eventually pay for themselves, it's just a tough pill to swallow. Do I keep the old bulbs and replace them when I move? 

Anyone else doing this? Any thoughts on bulb manufacturers, places to buy bulbs, etc? I notice Monoprice has LEDs, but they only carry a 3 year warranty compared to the Cree 10 year warranty.


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## mgavs

We now have 8 hue lights and 3 hue light strips. We started with one kit and never looked back. We also just added 2 hue taps. They are not just simple light bulbs for us but home improvements. Expensive as a bulb but not so when you consider the enjoyment and longevity. Almost all our friends go out and buy a kit after seeing ours. See my review on amazon (second from top) if you need more info. Btw we rarely control them, they come on when needed, and all go off when we go to bed. We even have an emergency mode to flash all bulbs for 5 seconds then go bright to scare off intruders.

If you can swing it go for controllable bulbs like hue instead of simple ones, you will be glad you did. We have all areas controlled from timers, iPads, iPhones, and the hue tap works great if you need a physical switch. All our dimmers are now removed. Bonus.. Bulbs are always cool to the touch!


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## Steve

I was just reading about this "dimmable" LED on Kickstarter, no dimmer switch required:

http://youtu.be/eizpVPlS32E


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## mgavs

Steve said:


> I was just reading about this "dimmable" LED on Kickstarter, no dimmer switch required:


But why when the hue does not need a switch (we never touch ours anymore) and can be any color. We watch tv with blue and snack with warm, and go bright cool white when we need to see well. After having timers, colors, the ability to control lights away from home, etc. we will never go back. Just saying the extra money for hue is worth it in my opinion.


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## Steve

Wasn't suggesting it's better or worse than other options. Just thought it was interesting.


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## dennisj00

I think in the last year I've had more CFLs fail than incandescents. That's probably attributed to using them in high on/off locations and cheaper bulbs as the price dropped to become affordable.

As the Cree (an interesting NC company) bulbs have become affordable, I pick up a couple every week or so in trips to HD and replace the kitchen / den overhead and lamps. I added one of the low-profile LED strips under counter in kitchen and just leave it on - 6 watts.

The one replacement I can't find is an LED for the 40 watt appliance (low profile) for the stove. I did order one from China for $3 (shipped) and a $1 socket adapter but it didn't do well.

If I searched right on the hue lamps/controller on amazon, it'll be a while before I buy them!! $$


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## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> I think in the last year I've had more CFLs fail than incandescents. That's probably attributed to using them in high on/off locations and cheaper bulbs as the price dropped to become affordable.
> 
> As the Cree (an interesting NC company) bulbs have become affordable, I pick up a couple every week or so in trips to HD and replace the kitchen / den overhead and lamps. I added one of the low-profile LED strips under counter in kitchen and just leave it on - 6 watts.
> 
> The one replacement I can't find is an LED for the 40 watt appliance (low profile) for the stove. I did order one from China for $3 (shipped) and a $1 socket adapter but it didn't do well.
> 
> If I searched right on the hue lamps/controller on amazon, it'll be a while before I buy them!! $$


I bought 8 Philips 60W LEDs from Costco for $4.98 each. Put four in my kitchen's ceiling fan and four in my dining room's fan. I had to change the kitchen LEDs to 40W LEDs because the chair I use at night to watch TV faces the kitchen and the lights were too bright. The 40W LEDs fixed that. Costco stopped selling the 60W LEDs for that price and almost doubled the price for them now. I tried one of the 60W LEDs by my bed where I read for hours every night and it wasn't bright enough (go figure) so I bought a 100W LED from Costco for about $17. That worked.

Those CFLs that were supposed to last for such a long time, BS. They keep failing and I'll be replacing them with LEDs.

Rich


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## NR4P

I use CFL's in outdoor lighting that is on for 8-12 hours/night 7 days a week.
CFL's have lasted years. Perhaps because they are on/off only once per day.

Have paid for themselves many times over vs incandescent. Incandescents never lasted a year in that application.


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## boukengreen

I have 2 led lights in my room and I know if I have them on full power at night it gets hot in here


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## JACKIEGAGA

I also started replacing my bulbs with CREE bulbs. I have my dinning room fixture and a half bath left. I also replace T12 fixtures in my work shop with T5 fixtures.


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## toobs

A few years ago, I redid my entire house with recessed lighting and went with LED bulbs. I ended up getting them at Costco for around $13-$15 a piece. They are even cheaper now. Sometimes Costco has rebates.


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## Rich

NR4P said:
 

> I use CFL's in outdoor lighting that is on for 8-12 hours/night 7 days a week.
> CFL's have lasted years. Perhaps because they are on/off only once per day.
> 
> Have paid for themselves many times over vs incandescent. Incandescents never lasted a year in that application.


Most incandescents were only rated at 750 hours. I don't think that factored in turning them on or off a lot.

Rich


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## Rich

boukengreen said:


> I have 2 led lights in my room and I know if I have them on full power at night it gets hot in here


How? I just put my hand on a lit 60W LED and it's barely warm to the touch. Much cooler than CFLs. I have a 100W LED by my bed and there is an indoor/outdoor thermometer below the light. When I was using CFLs, the temps would go up, but now, the temps stay steady or fall.

Rich


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## Rich

toobs said:


> A few years ago, I redid my entire house with recessed lighting and went with LED bulbs. I ended up getting them at Costco for around $13-$15 a piece. They are even cheaper now. Sometimes Costco has rebates.


Oddly, Walmart is more expensive than Costco when it comes to LEDs. Not a big fan of Walmart anyway, I think Walmart and Sam's Club both really suck. Just an opinion, I know it depends on where they are and how the individual stores are run.

Rich


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## armophob

I did my whole house years ago when they were $40 a piece.
Keep the boxes and receipts.
The big box hardware store do honor those warranties, and if they don't sell the bulb any longer, they give store credit.



dmspen said:


> Last week, two incandescent bulbs failed in my house. Of course I had no spares as they are no longer sold in California. I had one CFL lying around.
> I then decided maybe it was time to start upgrading to LEDs. I purchased 6 Cree 60 watt 2100K bulbs (warm light) from Amazon and put them in the places we use light most - Living Room and my daughter's room.
> My biggest hurdle will be replacing all the recessed lighting in the kitchen. 24 recessed lights. Cost per bulb is around $20. Yikes! I know they will eventually pay for themselves, it's just a tough pill to swallow. Do I keep the old bulbs and replace them when I move?
> 
> Anyone else doing this? Any thoughts on bulb manufacturers, places to buy bulbs, etc? I notice Monoprice has LEDs, but they only carry a 3 year warranty compared to the Cree 10 year warranty.


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## Rich

armophob said:


> I did my whole house years ago when they were $40 a piece.
> Keep the boxes and receipts.
> The big box hardware store do honor those warranties, and if they don't sell the bulb any longer, they give store credit.


Good info from a dependable source.

Rich


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## Drucifer

In a few years, Smart LED bulbs should be a hell of a lot cheaper.


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## dmspen

Thanks for all the inputs! Now I need to look at the Philips HUE. I'm not sure my wife will be onboard with this, but I love the idea!


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## Rich

dmspen said:


> Thanks for all the inputs! Now I need to look at the Philips HUE. I'm not sure my wife will be onboard with this, but I love the idea!


We've got a hue option in one of our cars. Never use it.

Rich


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## Rich

Drucifer said:


> In a few years, Smart LED bulbs should be a hell of a lot cheaper.


I was pretty happy with Costco selling those 60W Philips LEDs for $4.98. But that didn't last.

Rich


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## Drucifer

Rich said:


> I was pretty happy with Costco selling those 60W Philips LEDs for $4.98. But that didn't last.
> 
> Rich


Were they programmable?


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## dmspen

Rich said:


> We've got a hue option in one of our cars. Never use it.
> 
> Rich


I have a Ford Focus EV and it has a hue led interior light option. I always have it set to blue. I think it's pretty neat, but I never change it. I wonder if I would do the same with home HUE.


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## Nick

I have an LED hue bulb in my remote-controlled 3-bulb bedroom ceiling fan light. When I use
the fixture's dimmer, the two incandescent bulbs dim accordingly but the hue bulb stays bright
and functions as programmed, providing an interesting ( :heart effect. :icon_an:


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## SayWhat?

I found some CREE 6500K 9W (60W) at a closeout store for about $9-10 each. Bought three for an outdoor post fixture. I had 13W CFLs in it, but they didn't like photocells or X-10 timers, so they ended up staying on 24 hours a day.

With the CREEs, I was able to add a conventional post mount photocell so they only one Dusk-Dawn.

Bright sucka's too.

I also got some recessed replacement units that are almost totally flush to the ceiling. They fit into a standard 4" round box. Yet the way they're made with a slightly convex dome, you get wide angle light coverage. I think I paid about $10 for those instead of the $30 normal retail price.


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## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Were they programmable?


No, but dimmable. If that helps.

Rich


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## Rich

dmspen said:


> I have a Ford Focus EV and it has a hue led interior light option. I always have it set to blue. I think it's pretty neat, but I never change it. _*I wonder if I would do the same with home HUE.*_


I would. I already know that. Sounds kinda 3D-ish, no? One of those things that sounds neat, but is never used. We've never changed it in the car, can't imagine using it in the house. Just my opinion, tho.

Rich


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## Rich

Nick said:


> I have an LED hue bulb in my remote-controlled 3-bulb bedroom ceiling fan light. When I use
> the fixture's dimmer, the two incandescent bulbs dim accordingly but the hue bulb stays bright
> and functions as programmed, providing an interesting ( :heart effect. :icon_an:


I had remote control fans in two of our bedrooms. Both remote receivers blew out the first time we had a power outage and the WH gennie kicked on. My one older remote control fan didn't have any problems, but the new Hunter receivers that you have to jam into the fan's innards won't take the resulting power surges. Cheap crap. Hunter fans have really gone downhill as far as quality goes. I had to buy four to find one that didn't hum loudly for the master bedroom. I ended up with one that had a slight hum and thought that was the best I could do. When the remote receivers blew, I took them out and the slight hum went away.

Rich


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## Cholly

I have a mix of CFL's and LED's in my master suite. My ceiling fan has four 60 w. equivalent candelabra base spiral CFL's, other ceiling fixture has two CREE 60w equivalent A19 LED's on X10 dimmer switch, two bedside lamps have dimmable spiral CF'Ls on X10 dimmer. My bath has 8 60 watt equivalent globe shape CFL's over the vanity, and 60 watt equivalent spiral CFL's in the shower and the toilet room. The globe shape CFL's are a pain, since they have a looong delay to full brightness. I'd prefer LED's in all those locations, but to my knowledge, candelabra based fan bulbs aren't available, nor are globe shaped bulbs at a reasonable price..
About half the remaining fixtures in the house have spiral or BR30 CFL's.The rest are still on incandescents and will be until we exhaust our supply of spares.


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## chevyguy559

Does anyone know if they make a good LED replacement for clear bulbs? I have a lot of fixtures in my house that have open or clear glass and a CFL or frosted LED bulb just kind of look bad in them....I'd like to start getting on the LED bandwagon but that has stopped me. Thanks!


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## Karen

I have a bunch of Philips LED bulbs in my house and love them. I don't have their clear one and I'm not sure it's even out in the states yet, but here's the press release about it.

http://www.newscenter.philips.com/main/standard/news/press/2014/20140331-Philips-brings-the-traditional-light-bulb-into-the-21st-Century.wpd#.VA5FkvldWt2


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## Drucifer

Karen said:


> I have a bunch of Philips LED bulbs in my house and love them. I don't have their clear one and I'm not sure it's even out in the states yet, but here's the press release about it.
> 
> http://www.newscenter.philips.com/main/standard/news/press/2014/20140331-Philips-brings-the-traditional-light-bulb-into-the-21st-Century.wpd#.VA5FkvldWt2


And they have in a SMART model - programmable from your SMART device.


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## dmspen

I've been looking through www.earthled.com and they may have Chandelier bulbs that meet your needs



Cholly said:


> I'd prefer LED's in all those locations, but to my knowledge, candelabra based fan bulbs aren't available, nor are globe shaped bulbs at a reasonable price.


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## Rich

Cholly said:


> I have a mix of CFL's and LED's in my master suite. My ceiling fan has four 60 w. equivalent candelabra base spiral CFL's, other ceiling fixture has two CREE 60w equivalent A19 LED's on X10 dimmer switch, two bedside lamps have dimmable spiral CF'Ls on X10 dimmer. My bath has 8 60 watt equivalent globe shape CFL's over the vanity, and 60 watt equivalent spiral CFL's in the shower and the toilet room. The globe shape CFL's are a pain, since they have a looong delay to full brightness. I'd prefer LED's in all those locations, but to my knowledge, candelabra based fan bulbs aren't available, nor are globe shaped bulbs at a reasonable price..
> About half the remaining fixtures in the house have spiral or BR30 CFL's.The rest are still on incandescents and will be until we exhaust our supply of spares.


Charlie, I just saw candelabra based LEDs in Costco the other day. I've got one fan that has a need for them. HD has the Crees on sale too.

Rich


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## Rich

chevyguy559 said:


> Does anyone know if they make a good LED replacement for clear bulbs? I have a lot of fixtures in my house that have open or clear glass and a CFL or frosted LED bulb just kind of look bad in them....I'd like to start getting on the LED bandwagon but that has stopped me. Thanks!


I haven't seen any and I always look in lighting sections of stores.

Rich


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## Groundhog45

I've gotten a few 40 and 60 watt equivalent LEDs at Lowe's recently for about $7-9.00. They're rated at 3000K so we feel they're a little bit too yellow. I like 3500K or 4000K. Too much more starts to look a little blue. I recently got some 60 watt from Monoprice.com for $7.00 each (6-pack for $42). They're rated at 4000K. They're larger (longer) because they project 270 degrees instead of 180 degrees. Very please with them. These are all non-dimmable.


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## Herdfan

This summer we try to keep our recessed lights off due to the heat they generate. Well, that didn't really work for my daughter in her room, so I went an got 4 of the Cree bulbs from HD. She liked them OK so we left them. Well, then my wife thought it was a good idea to replace all the recessed lights in our bedroom. All 12 of them. Well, let me clarify, she bought them, I replaced them.

Now we use dimmers quite a bit. Actually every light inside the house except for closets are on controllable dimmers. So in the morning when the alarm goes off, the lights in the bedroom come on to 15% or so. That first morning, well let's say the LED's 15% was a whole lot brighter than the incandescent's 15%. So we unprogrammed that function. But even though we bought the "warm" 2700K color ones, they still didn't look right and would not dim down like the incandescents would. 

So out they came and went into locations that we didn't use much.

We may try again in a few years after they perfect them some more.


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## Cholly

Thanks, Nick and Rich for the heads up about candelabra based LED's. Since I already have 4 60 watt equivalent spiral CFL's on the fan, I'll stick with them for the present.


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## Nick

Cholly said:


> Thanks, Nick and Rich for the heads up about candelabra based LED's. Since I already have 4 60 watt equivalent spiral CFL's on the fan, I'll stick with them for the present.


Just a detail, the single HUE LED in my MBR ceiling fan is standard base,
with a standard (incandescent) size envelope. I have three HUEs -- each
came with its own remote and will operate independently or collectively.


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## Rich

Well, one of my brand new Philips 60W LEDs just went out while I was typing a post. Just unscrewed it and it is sort of lit. Kinda like it's been dimmed. Now I'm out $5! Geez, it said it would last over 20 years on the package. My luck.... :nono2:

Rich


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## Cholly

Rich said:


> Well, one of my brand new Philips 60W LEDs just went out while I was typing a post. Just unscrewed it and it is sort of lit. Kinda like it's been dimmed. Now I'm out $5! Geez, it said it would last over 20 years on the package. My luck.... :nono2:
> 
> Rich


Return it! Even without the sleeve or receipt, you should be able to get a replacement at no charge.


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## Drucifer

Cholly said:


> Return it! Even without the sleeve or receipt, you should be able to get a replacement at no charge.


Your kidding right?

The smart store clerk will insist he has been using it for the past 20 years!


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## Rich

Cholly said:


> Return it! Even without the sleeve or receipt, you should be able to get a replacement at no charge.


I have the bad LED in the original package all ready for my next trip to Costco. This experience just bolsters my assumption that Costco is a drop off spot for seconds. Says right on the box, "Lasts 22.8 Years" followed by two asterisks denoting that the 22.8 years means having them on for 3 hours a day for 22.8 years. Return it I shall.

Rich


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## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Your kidding right?
> 
> The smart store clerk will insist he has been using it for the past 20 years!


I gotta admit I felt like I was in a time warp yesterday when the thing went out.

Rich


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## jerry downing

I decided to switch to LEDs last month, so I went to Home Depot and bought some Cree 60W bulbs for my family room. Now I hear that Home Depot has been hacked. Poor timing I guess but the bulbs work fine. I planned on going back for more when I heard about the hack job. I'll wait until things settle down.


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## Sixto

I've been slowly converting every light to Cree. Every visit to Home Depot I get a few more. Just about done. No longer delayed bright from CFLs. Also did the 4 foot 4000 lumens light in a few basement/garage spots.


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## Drucifer

I think I'll will order some Cree for my kitchen pot lights.


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## Rich

jerry downing said:


> I decided to switch to LEDs last month, so I went to Home Depot and bought some Cree 60W bulbs for my family room. _*Now I hear that Home Depot has been hacked*_. Poor timing I guess but the bulbs work fine. I planned on going back for more when I heard about the hack job. I'll wait until things settle down.


This is why I have stopped using my debit card and only use Amex.

Rich


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## Rich

Sixto said:


> I've been slowly converting every light to Cree. Every visit to Home Depot I get a few more. Just about done. No longer delayed bright from CFLs. Also did the 4 foot 4000 lumens light in a few basement/garage spots.


I think I might give up on buying LEDs from Costco and start buying them at HD. Looking at the Philips 60W LED that failed shows the top is not well placed on the extension of the base. (Confused, I don't know how to describe it any better, sorry). In any event, I don't mind paying a bit more for the Crees. I suppose the 4 footers don't need a ballast? Do you need new clips for the ends? I just looked at their website and couldn't really tell.

Rich


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## Rich

Drucifer said:


> I think I'll will order some Cree for my kitchen pot lights.


If you move, will you take all the LEDs with you?

Rich


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## Drucifer

Rich said:


> If you move, will you take all the LEDs with you?
> 
> Rich


I'll add 'em as an extra they need to pay for.

Just got a kick up my ass by Home Depot -- the Cree A19 Dimmable LED Light Bulbs are $3 mo' per blub in Fishkill, NY then in Manhattan and they wont do home delivery - only store pickup. Got two words for 'em!


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## Nick

than


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## Rich

I bought a couple Crees yesterday at HD. The 60W that I bought really lights up a room. But it looked funny in my fan because the other 3 LEDs I have in it are Philips and you can see the difference in build right away. So I put it in an overhead light and it blows away the Philips 60W that I have in the other identical fixture. 

Rich


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## dmspen

Drucifer said:


> I'll add 'em as an extra they need to pay for.
> 
> Just got a kick up my ass by Home Depot -- the Cree A19 Dimmable LED Light Bulbs are $3 mo' per blub in Fishkill, NY then in Manhattan and they wont do home delivery - only store pickup. Got two words for 'em!


I got mine from Amazon. The 6 pack was $3 cheaper than Home Depot, home delivery in 1 day (I was shocked). Amazon hasn't been hacked yet! Amazon has BULBS rather than Home Depot's blubs!


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## Rich

dmspen said:


> I got mine from Amazon. The 6 pack was $3 cheaper than Home Depot, home delivery in 1 day (I was shocked). Amazon hasn't been hacked yet! Amazon has BULBS rather than Home Depot's blubs!


Gotta be a careful shopper. I paid less for a 60W and a 100W Cree than Amazon's selling them for. I also paid $3.97 each for six 60W Philips that Amazon is selling for about $9.

Rich


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## dmspen

Home Depot prices their products based on location. In the case of the LEDs, they were cheaper on Amazon. This is NOT the case for everything of course.

When I ordered the LEDs, it was Friday morning. Prime shipping said they would arrive Tuesday. They showed up at 8 am Saturday, less than 24 hours later.


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## Rich

dmspen said:


> _*Home Depot prices their products based on location.*_ In the case of the LEDs, they were cheaper on Amazon. This is NOT the case for everything of course.
> 
> When I ordered the LEDs, it was Friday morning. Prime shipping said they would arrive Tuesday. They showed up at 8 am Saturday, less than 24 hours later.


How do they get away with that? I know supermarkets used to do that. I thought that practice was stopped. I have an ongoing problem with HD's policy of just putting returns back on the shelf. When Lowes and HD first opened up in our area they were doing that and everyone complained about it. It quickly stopped, but it's back again and they don't see anything wrong with it. Now that they've wiped out all the smaller hardware stores I guess they can do anything they want. We do have some options, but the big hardware stores that stock better stuff than Lowes or HD are a lot more expensive.

Rich


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## Laxguy

And thus it was, is, and will be: Better stuff will (often) command better prices. (better for the seller, of course!)


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## SayWhat?

Drucifer said:


> I think I'll will order some Cree for my kitchen pot lights.


Must be some fancy-schmancy pots to have bulbs. Do your pans have them too?


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## Nick

I will pan that last remark -- this thread has gone to pot!


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## Laxguy

Yeah, iffen ya' can't stand the heat, get outta da kitchen!


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## Sixto

Rich said:


> I think I might give up on buying LEDs from Costco and start buying them at HD. Looking at the Philips 60W LED that failed shows the top is not well placed on the extension of the base. (Confused, I don't know how to describe it any better, sorry). In any event, I don't mind paying a bit more for the Crees. I suppose the 4 footers don't need a ballast? Do you need new clips for the ends? I just looked at their website and couldn't really tell.
> 
> Rich


yep, no ballast, quiet, and instant on, and nice and bright. You can use clips, or there's a connection in the middle to hook to a junction box in the ceiling. I've done two of the 4 footers so far, with two more to go.


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## Rich

Laxguy said:


> And thus it was, is, and will be: Better stuff will (often) command better prices. (better for the seller, of course!)


I don't mind using the more expensive hardware or plumbing stores, but HD not having the same price for each item in its stores kinda bothers me.

Rich


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## Rich

Sixto said:


> yep, no ballast, quiet, and instant on, and nice and bright. You can use clips, or there's a connection in the middle to hook to a junction box in the ceiling. I've done two of the 4 footers so far, with two more to go.


Stupid question, I shouldn't have asked it. So you have to buy a whole new fixture. When I asked about the clips I was referring to the clips in the fluorescent fixtures. Wouldn't take much to alter the wiring to feed the clips. If that's possible. I've always had a fear of ballasts in the home. I saw enough of them burn up in our plant. Stinky things, fortunately, when they overheat and start to smolder.

Rich


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## dmspen

Yesterday I ordered 3 decorative 40 watt globe LEDs (3 inch globe) for the daughter's bathroom. 2 of the old bulbs were out. Amazon had FEIT LED 3 pack for $15. Should get them tomorrow.


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## dennisj00

Has anyone used leds from IKEA? We bought some furniture there last Saturday and I picked up some 40s and 60s for some new bathroom fixtures and bedroom lamps.

They also had some worklights (small desk with bases or clamp-on and leds in several base sizes.

I'm putting the installation date on all LEDs that I put in since most of the CFLs haven't lasted as long as they should have.


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## Rich

dmspen said:


> Yesterday I ordered 3 decorative 40 watt globe LEDs (3 inch globe) for the daughter's bathroom. 2 of the old bulbs were out. Amazon had FEIT LED 3 pack for $15. Should get them tomorrow.


FEIT's has a decent website. That's a good price you got.

Rich


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## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Has anyone used leds from IKEA? We bought some furniture there last Saturday and I picked up some 40s and 60s for some new bathroom fixtures and bedroom lamps.
> 
> They also had some worklights (small desk with bases or clamp-on and leds in several base sizes.
> 
> I'm putting the installation date on all LEDs that I put in since most of the CFLs haven't lasted as long as they should have.


We went to an IKEA the day before Labor Day. That was really an experience. The LEDs I saw there were more expensive than the same LEDs in HD or Costco. That place was a madhouse, but it's close to NYC and, on a Sunday, it was so crowded and confusing...well I'll never go back there on a weekend. Once we figured out the setup of the store it wasn't so bad.

Rich


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## dennisj00

Rich said:


> We went to an IKEA the day before Labor Day. That was really an experience. The LEDs I saw there were more expensive than the same LEDs in HD or Costco. That place was a madhouse, but it's close to NYC and, on a Sunday, it was so crowded and confusing...well I'll never go back there on a weekend. Once we figured out the setup of the store it wasn't so bad.
> 
> Rich


It certainly overloads my shopping allocation!! Fortunately, wife had mapped out what she wanted for our bedroom renovation and we hit it at opening time on Saturday. Actually we were 30 minutes early so I took advantage of their $0.99 breakfast / coffee!

Prices may be different here, 40 watt bulbs (eq) were $4 something.


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## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> It certainly overloads my shopping allocation!! Fortunately, wife had mapped out what she wanted for our bedroom renovation and we hit it at opening time on Saturday. Actually we were 30 minutes early so I took advantage of their $0.99 breakfast / coffee!
> 
> Prices may be different here, 40 watt bulbs (eq) were $4 something.


I wanted to try their meatballs, but it was so crowded I couldn't get near the food. NYC, apparently has no big box stores, so the IKEA we went to is the closest one that I know of to Manhattan. And it's in a half-sales tax area, so everybody comes over the bridges and thru the tunnels in rental trucks. I don't remember what the prices of the LEDs were and I was only looking for 60W bulbs, but I would think the prices do vary. Or not, I dunno.

But, my wife got everything she wanted and we got out of that madhouse without incident.

Rich


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## Cholly

I stopped by the local Walmart today to pick up a lamp socket and wandered down their light bulb aisle. Surprise -- they now have a wide variety of LED bulbs in the GE and Great Value lines. Prices seem to be in line with major brands.


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## bobnielsen

Rich said:


> I wanted to try their meatballs, but it was so crowded I couldn't get near the food. NYC, apparently has no big box stores, so the IKEA we went to is the closest one that I know of to Manhattan. And it's in a half-sales tax area, so everybody comes over the bridges and thru the tunnels in rental trucks. I don't remember what the prices of the LEDs were and I was only looking for 60W bulbs, but I would think the prices do vary. Or not, I dunno.
> 
> But, my wife got everything she wanted and we got out of that madhouse without incident.
> 
> Rich


I haven't checked recently, but a few years ago the local IKEA also had meatballs near the checkout stands, as well as in the food area.


----------



## dmspen

Went to Costco on Saturday, ostensibly to get toilet paper and food items. They had the FEIT R20 45 watt replacement reflector lights - the type I need for my ceiling. A 2 pack (not Tupak) was $18.99. I got them to see how they worked in my massive kitchen ceiling array. When I got home I turned on the kitchen lights - bzzzt. Another one burned out. Great. I got the step stool and replaced 2 lights with the LEDS. The 45 equivalent LEDs using 8 watts are actually brighter than the original 50 watt Halogens. They work with the dimmer switch also. I Googled the light pack and found Amazon had the cheapest price so I ordered a 6 pack of 2 packs. I really needed 9 2 packs but they only had 6 at the good price. Expecting them on Tuesday. Very excited to drop 22-42 watts per light.


----------



## Rich

The whole place was so crowded I just turned around and went back to the line I was waiting in.

How did you like the meatballs?

Rich


----------



## Rich

I was in Costco the other day and the candelabra LEDs are in a set of 3 for ~ $19. Not a bad price.

Rich


----------



## hdtvfan0001

We were proactive and bought large numbers of various bulbs before the governmental mandate for change.

By the time those all expire from use in the future...the prices of LEDs might actually get down below their current insane pricing (hopefully) based on more mass-manufacturing.


----------



## dennisj00

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We were proactive and bought large numbers of various bulbs before the governmental mandate for change.
> 
> By the time those all expire from use in the future...the prices of LEDs might actually get down below their current insane pricing (hopefully) based on more mass-manufacturing.


And you continue to waste electricity to save a buck. Lots of LEDs are nicely priced today and use 10% or less of equivalent output.


----------



## Sixto

Yep, Ive changed all mine out. First CFL, now LED.


----------



## Drucifer

When I move, I'm leaving my closet supply of incandescents and taking my LEDs.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dennisj00 said:


> And you continue to waste electricity to save a buck. Lots of LEDs are nicely priced today and use 10% or less of equivalent output.


Actually...we've spent thousands on electricity-saving things in the home...so no guilt here. Our costs are down 18% year of year despite price increases in the service the past 3 years...so we're actually doing much better than most folks. That includes appliances and HVAC...which use exponentially higher electricity than all of our lighting put together.

But LEDs are simply a cost-based ripoff and still far over-priced because this was mandated. Things will change over time on that front in a more favorable manner. At some point...LEDs will cost 1/2 or less than they do today.


----------



## Rich

Sixto said:


> Yep, Ive changed all mine out. First CFL, now LED.


I'm still working towards that. I'm really liking the Cree lights. Smaller than the Philips with the same lumen output. I tried to put a Philips 60W bulb in two fixtures yesterday and they wouldn't fit.

Rich


----------



## Sixto

Rich said:


> I'm still working towards that. I'm really liking the Cree lights. Smaller than the Philips with the same lumen output. I tried to put a Philips 60W bulb in two fixtures yesterday and they wouldn't fit.
> 
> Rich


Yep, same here, I'm going 100% Cree, both bulbs and 4ft. Perfect, nice price, easy to get at Home Depot.


----------



## inkahauts

I have gone all Feit around here, thats what they have at our costco, and they are a little cheaper than the Home Depot stuff we have out here. Work great too.


----------



## armophob

I would be curious how Costco would handle a return of a bulb a couple years down the road on a 5-7 year warranty.
When I called the manufacturer the first time one burned out, they said to return it to the retailer.

The ones I bought at Home Depot were 5 year. When one of them went out in 2 years, they honored the refund on a store credit because they no longer carried the brand.
I am now using Phillips dimmable from there that cost half of what I paid for the original ones. Every time one goes out, I get 2 more.


inkahauts said:


> I have gone all Feit around here, thats what they have at our costco, and they are a little cheaper than the Home Depot stuff we have out here. Work great too.


----------



## inkahauts

Cosco returns everything anytime at all other than computers and TVs as it is so really don't think it'll be an issue.


----------



## Rich

Sixto said:


> Yep, same here, I'm going 100% Cree, both bulbs and 4ft. Perfect, nice price, easy to get at Home Depot.


It's amazing how much smaller the Crees are than the Philips. Same lumen output, and they just look better.

Rich


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Cosco returns everything anytime at all other than computers and TVs as it is so really don't think it'll be an issue.


They finally got rid of the store manager at our nearest Costco. He allowed the women at the return counter to go absolutely bat**** at any return they felt should not be returned. I mean really loud and abusive.

Rich


----------



## Drucifer

Rich said:


> It's amazing how much smaller the Crees are than the Philips. Same lumen output, and they just look better.
> 
> Rich


I'm a little confused, aren't bulb sizes assorted by codes. Aren't all A19 the same physical size?


----------



## dennisj00

Drucifer said:


> I'm a little confused, aren't bulb sizes assorted by codes. Aren't all A19 the same physical size?


I believe the A designation is the maximum bulb width (not necessarily smaller could have same A rating) and E is base type.


----------



## Cholly

The letter code is the bulb shape, and the number is the diameter in 8ths of an inch.
http://www.lightopedia.com/bulb-shapes-sizes


----------



## dmspen

I went with FEIT for my R20 bulbs in my kitchen's recessed lighting. Cree doesn't make an R20 bulb - at least none I could find.


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> I'm a little confused, aren't bulb sizes assorted by codes. Aren't all A19 the same physical size?


Physically, a 60W Philips is a good bit larger and heavier than a Cree 60W bulb. Where a Philips wouldn't fit, a Cree did. In several applications now. The Philips is kinda huge next to a Cree.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> I believe the A designation is the maximum bulb width (not necessarily smaller could have same A rating) and E is base type.


Did the base designations change? I know the LEDs I've been buying have a median base and I've seen candelabra based LEDs. Never heard of the E designation.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> I went with FEIT for my R20 bulbs in my kitchen's recessed lighting. Cree doesn't make an R20 bulb - at least none I could find.


This is gonna drive me nuts. I'm just gonna stick with the Crees. I don't have any exotic light fixtures in my home.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Did the base designations change? I know the LEDs I've been buying have a median base and I've seen candelabra based LEDs. Never heard of the E designation.
> 
> Rich


Y, the E designations are 'Edison' and guess who he was!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm beginning to think that with the various LEDs...the old joke "_*how many -------- does it take to screw in a lightbulb*_" could make a comeback. :grin:


----------



## Drucifer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm beginning to think that with the various LEDs...the old joke "_*how many -------- does it take to screw in a lightbulb*_" could make a comeback. :grin:


Now you need a guide to get even the right bulb.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Y, the E designations are 'Edison' and guess who he was!


Must be an old designation. Wonder why I didn't know about it. :nono2:

Rich


----------



## Rich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm beginning to think that with the various LEDs...the old joke "_*how many -------- does it take to screw in a lightbulb*_" could make a comeback. :grin:


I think it's just a matter of figuring out which ones suit your purpose or which ones are just plain better. In any event, I'm glad I didn't stock up on the old incandescents, I'm enjoying the journey.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Must be an old designation. Wonder why I didn't know about it. :nono2:
> 
> Rich


Probably because in the US it's pretty much standard lamp sockets, candelabra, or Christmas tree sized sockets. Throw in another half dozen international standards and you need better designation.

I ran into different types and adapters looking for a LED to replace the 40 watt slim appliance bulb over our stove. I found a LED - $3.00 and socket adapter 0.99 - both shipped from China - that fit but wasn't enough light.


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Know you need a guide to get even the right bulb.


I think it's just a matter of understanding the new terminology, which isn't really new. Lumens, warmth (you want an LED with 2700 on the warmth scale to approximate a normal incandescent) and bases. Something we didn't have to worry about that much with incandescents. Lumens are a measure of light emitted, or how bright the bulb will be.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Probably because in the US it's pretty much standard lamp sockets, candelabra, or Christmas tree sized sockets. Throw in another half dozen international standards and you need better designation.
> 
> I ran into different types and adapters looking for a LED to replace the 40 watt slim appliance bulb over our stove. I found a LED - $3.00 and socket adapter 0.99 - both shipped from China - that fit but wasn't enough light.


I've had a lot of classes on lighting and we always focused on the names of the bases and how to change or alter them and what the lights were best used for. Tell me the light has a mogul base and I know right away I'm looking at a pretty big bulb. Tell me it's got a bayonet base and I'm pretty sure it's a very small bulb. First time I ever saw that big chart was in _*Cholly'*__*s*_ post.

Now, if I can bring myself to do it, I'm gonna have to look in my good old Electrician's Handbook and see if that chart is in there.

I need a couple lights for my stove, if I find them and they're bright enough (have a lot of lumens), I'll send you a link.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

On our LG microwave over the stove, it's a 40 watt appliance, small socket, with elongated slim cylinder bulb rather than the round fat that's in old refrigerators.

I walk by that aisle every time I'm in Lowe's or HD - which is about every day lately. They know what I'm looking for and just shake their heads.

I haven't checked the new microwaves but I'm sure it's an LED lamp or strip on newer models- like our relatively new frig. We probably bought the microwave a year or so early to still be incandescent.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> On our LG microwave over the stove, it's a 40 watt appliance, small socket, with elongated slim cylinder bulb rather than the round fat that's in old refrigerators.
> 
> I walk by that aisle every time I'm in Lowe's or HD - which is about every day lately. They know what I'm looking for and just shake their heads.
> 
> I haven't checked the new microwaves but I'm sure it's an LED lamp or strip on newer models- like our relatively new frig. We probably bought the microwave a year or so early to still be incandescent.


Is it a screw in socket or a bayonet (two prongs that stick into two holes) base?

Rich


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Rich said:


> I think it's just a matter of figuring out which ones suit your purpose or which ones are just plain better. In any event, I'm glad I didn't stock up on the old incandescents, I'm enjoying the journey.


There's plenty of time to take the journey if you plan ahead to avoid the "rough grading and paving phases" of the road to get you there. :grin:


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Is it a screw in socket or a bayonet (two prongs that stick into two holes) base?
> 
> Rich


It's a screw socket. I just can't find it in LED.


----------



## Drucifer

I'll be hitting Wal*Mart & Home Depot for a dimmable A19 LED and a spray mop. Wonder which will be easier to get asking aisle clerks?

Will also be looking and buying, depending on their price, for a couple 'Smart' A19 LED bulbs?


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> It's a screw socket. I just can't find it in LED.


So's mine, I'll let you know if I find one.

Rich


----------



## Drucifer

Drucifer said:


> I'll be hitting Wal*Mart & Home Depot for a dimmable A19 LED and a spray mop. Wonder which will be easier to get asking aisle clerks?
> 
> Will also be looking and buying, depending on their price, for a couple 'Smart' A19 LED bulbs?


Home Depot had the better price.

If you include tax, one 40watt-like dimmable LED cost me ten buck and change.


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Home Depot had the better price.
> 
> If you include tax, one 40watt-like dimmable LED cost me ten buck and change.


I was gonna tell you about WM's higher prices, but I remembered about the different prices you had seen at different HDs. Both our local HDs have lower prices. Kinda surprising when you think about it.

Rich


----------



## Cholly

Looking on the web: HD's lowest price 40 watt equivalent dimmable A19 is a Philips for $8.97. Cree is $9.97.
WM has a Great Value 60 w. equivalent bulb for $8.88. I didn't notice a 40 w. equivalent GV dimmable A19. Their sorting capacity leaves much to be desired.


----------



## dmspen

Received the final group of LEDs for my recessed kitchen lights. Will install them this afternoon.

I've noticed that LEDs 'pop' on. At least the ones I put in my daughter's bathroom do. You flip the switch and there is a noticeable lag until they pop on. Granted it's probably .5 seconds, but it is noticeable.
I've noticed this in the kitchen where the lights are on a dimmer switch. Tap the dimmer and the old halogens start illuminating then the LEDs pop on.

Anyone else seen this?


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> Received the final group of LEDs for my recessed kitchen lights. Will install them this afternoon.
> 
> I've noticed that LEDs 'pop' on. At least the ones I put in my daughter's bathroom do. You flip the switch and there is a noticeable lag until they pop on. Granted it's probably .5 seconds, but it is noticeable.
> I've noticed this in the kitchen where the lights are on a dimmer switch. Tap the dimmer and the old halogens start illuminating then the LEDs pop on.
> 
> Anyone else seen this?


I just tried the Crees and the Philips and they don't do that. As soon as I hit the switch they came on. Are you using a dimmer?

Rich


----------



## Sixto

No delay here with the Crees.


----------



## dmspen

Rich said:


> I just tried the Crees and the Philips and they don't do that. As soon as I hit the switch they came on. Are you using a dimmer?
> 
> Rich


Yes, I have a 9 year old Lutron dimmer. I suspect the dimmer may be the issue as this doesn't happen with typical switch lights like a table lamp. Looking up compatible dimmers is not the easiest. The names and numbers of the dimmers and bulbs creates a bit of a maze to wander through. Very few of the FEIT listed compatible dimmers are terribly decorative, nor are they 3 pole. Yes, I have two dimmers...

Does anyone really understand what is meant by a "compatible" dimmer? What differentiates a 'compatible' dimmer from one that isn't? What are the effects of using a non-compatible dimmer? Will it damage the LDs? Will they still work? Will they POP on instead of a slow brightening?


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> Yes, I have a 9 year old Lutron dimmer. I suspect the dimmer may be the issue as this doesn't happen with typical switch lights like a table lamp. Looking up compatible dimmers is not the easiest. The names and numbers of the dimmers and bulbs creates a bit of a maze to wander through. Very few of the FEIT listed compatible dimmers are terribly decorative, nor are they 3 pole. Yes, I have two dimmers...
> 
> Does anyone really understand what is meant by a "compatible" dimmer? What differentiates a 'compatible' dimmer from one that isn't? What are the effects of using a non-compatible dimmer? Will it damage the LDs? Will they still work? Will they POP on instead of a slow brightening?


A lot of those timers need a neutral wire connection. Most of the old dimmers were wired just like a switch, no neutral needed.

This is kinda like what we went thru when GFIs came out. A whole new learning experience had to take place before most electricians were comfortable with them. I remember getting a call from a licensed electrician (just means they passed a test and can work in houses and get insurance to cover mistakes) who was totally baffled by a dead circuit. Turned out he had never heard that every device downstream from a GFI outlet was covered by that original GFI. All he had to do to get the circuit back online was press the reset button on the upstream GFI outlet.

I'd look for a dimmer with a neutral connection. Can't think of any other reason for you to see what you're seeing. Very interesting, but I know you'd rather not be the very first to have this happen to him.

Dimmable fluorescents were a PITA at first too. The public usually ends up beta testing new electrical technology.

Rich


----------



## billsharpe

I'm beginning to see the light (pun intended).

I was in Costco today and saw packages of big round LED bulbs the same size as I use in my bathroom. They are 8 watts and replace 40 or 60 watt bulbs I am currently using. Three bulbs for $19.99. I bought two packs. The light is actually brighter than my current 40-watt bulbs. Packaging says bulbs should last 22.8 years and that I will save $264 per three-pack based on three hours use per day at 11 cents per Kwh. I'm not sure I'll be around to verify that claim. The warranty on the bulb, though, is only three years! It looks like I might be saving $11.57 ($264/22.8 years) per year, so that the cost of three bulbs is paid for in less than two years.

I also bought an outdoor motion sensor security light package at Costco. It came with two LED bulbs. Cost was $35.99 after a $10 Costco coupon rebate.

Costco doesn't have the selection of goods that Walmart has. However Costco is six miles from home; the nearest Walmart is about 20 miles away. Costco is now selling iPads and iPods.


----------



## Mark Holtz

Just to add to my experience...

A few years ago, I replaced the CFLs in the two ceiling fans with LEDs. Because of the half-moon design and the way the light was emitted, the LEDs were great for that application, but not for regular light fixtures. Only one has burned out over the years, and I believe it was the underlying circuitry rather than the LED itself. Two years ago, I replaced the chandelier lights in the stairway and front entrance with LEDs.

Now, the globe-type LED bulbs are now common, and I replaced the bulbs in the two of the three bathrooms with those. One bathroom is hardly used, so it's too expensive to replace. Also, Costco had a 100 Watt-equivalent (15 watt actual usage) which I put in the garage, and I'm replacing the hallway lights with LEDs as well.

My justification to my mother (who is the type that says don't replace until its broken)... the increased cost is offset by the lower power consumption and that they will last longer.


----------



## inkahauts

billsharpe said:


> I'm beginning to see the light (pun intended).
> 
> I was in Costco today and saw packages of big round LED bulbs the same size as I use in my bathroom. They are 8 watts and replace 40 or 60 watt bulbs I am currently using. Three bulbs for $19.99. I bought two packs. The light is actually brighter than my current 40-watt bulbs. Packaging says bulbs should last 22.8 years and that I will save $264 per three-pack based on three hours use per day at 11 cents per Kwh. I'm not sure I'll be around to verify that claim. The warranty on the bulb, though, is only three years! It looks like I might be saving $11.57 ($264/22.8 years) per year, so that the cost of three bulbs is paid for in less than two years.
> 
> I also bought an outdoor motion sensor security light package at Costco. It came with two LED bulbs. Cost was $35.99 after a $10 Costco coupon rebate.
> 
> Costco doesn't have the selection of goods that Walmart has. However Costco is six miles from home; the nearest Walmart is about 20 miles away. Costco is now selling iPads and iPods.


Costco has some of them online too.


----------



## dmspen

Lutron came through for me. They have recently released dimmers specifically for LED.CFL lighting. They even have a new model of the ones I have in the kitchen. I went head and ordered them via Amazon. Should arrive tomorrow. Although these dimmers are not listed on FEIT's compatibility list, my FEIT bulbs are listed on the Lutron dimmer compatibility list.


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> Lutron came through for me. They have recently released dimmers specifically for LED.CFL lighting. They even have a new model of the ones I have in the kitchen. I went head and ordered them via Amazon. Should arrive tomorrow. Although these dimmers are not listed on FEIT's compatibility list, my FEIT bulbs are listed on the Lutron dimmer compatibility list.


Did you check to see if they need a neutral wire to work? Have you checked the box your dimmer is in to see if it has access to a neutral? In older homes they didn't put a neutral in many switchboxes.

Rich


----------



## AntAltMike

Packaging says bulbs should last 22.8 years ...I'm not sure I'll be around to verify that claim. The warranty on the bulb, though, is only three years!..


I take product life expectancy claims of new products with a grain of salt.


----------



## Rich

AntAltMike said:


> Packaging says bulbs should last 22.8 years ...I'm not sure I'll be around to verify that claim. The warranty on the bulb, though, is only three years!..
> 
> I take product life expectancy claims of new products with a grain of salt.


Yeah, I've already had one blow out on me. Same thing happened with the CFLs. I've gone thru a lot of them.

Rich


----------



## Drucifer

Well once the REE are replaced in the manufacturing of LEDs, the price should tumble.


----------



## dmspen

I have a neutral.


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> I have a neutral.


Consider yourself lucky. I have a few switches that don't have neutral wires in them. PITA when you try to rewire a finished house. So, did you install the dimmers and did the popping stop?

Rich


----------



## dmspen

I install tomorrow (Wednedsay). I worked Sunday so got to choose a day off. Report forthcoming.


----------



## dmspen

I replaced the dimmers in my kitchen. I have 2 banks of lights, one a single dimmer, and the other on a dual circuit. Replacement was straightforward and easy. The only issue I had was one of the wires broke - too much bending I guess. All in all a pretty easy installation. Whoever did the wiring for the companion dimmer evidently ran out of black, white, or green wiring. All the lines are red! I just matched where they were and everything works great.

Now the really neat part.

With the original dimmer, there was a brief delay then the LEDs would pop on. The new dimmer has an adjustable dimming start control. You enter the mode through a dual button hold, then set the dimmer to the point where all the lights are on and stable, then tap the switch. Voila! Your minimum dimness is set. No popping. Also, the turn on rate has increased dramatically. The lights use to sort of fade on. Now the indicator shoots to the top in under a second. Almost like a switch. OFF has a nice delay so it's quite elegant.

All in all pretty happy about the swap...except the price.


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> I replaced the dimmers in my kitchen. I have 2 banks of lights, one a single dimmer, and the other on a dual circuit. Replacement was straightforward and easy. The only issue I had was one of the wires broke - too much bending I guess. All in all a pretty easy installation. Whoever did the wiring for the companion dimmer evidently ran out of black, white, or green wiring. All the lines are red! I just matched where they were and everything works great.
> 
> Now the really neat part.
> 
> With the original dimmer, there was a brief delay then the LEDs would pop on. The new dimmer has an adjustable dimming start control. You enter the mode through a dual button hold, then set the dimmer to the point where all the lights are on and stable, then tap the switch. Voila! Your minimum dimness is set. No popping. Also, the turn on rate has increased dramatically. The lights use to sort of fade on. Now the indicator shoots to the top in under a second. Almost like a switch. OFF has a nice delay so it's quite elegant.
> 
> All in all pretty happy about the swap..._*except the price*_.


Glad to see your problem solved, I am. Now, you can't dangle that out without telling us the price, that's just cruel. :rolling:

Rich


----------



## dmspen

OK, don't twist my arm so hard!
Main dimmer with companion was $44. Second dimmer was $28.

I guess I can't move for 22.8 years now.


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> OK, don't twist my arm so hard!
> Main dimmer with companion was $44. Second dimmer was $28.
> 
> I guess I can't move for 22.8 years now.


That's not bad. At least they solved your problem. Did you have a hard time figuring out which wires went where? I remember you saying that some butcher had used all red wires instead of the proper wires.

Rich


----------



## Cholly

Had a R30 CFL flood in 4 lamp ceiling track fixture die today,so decided to replace it with an LED. I checked prices online at Walmart and Lowes. the Walmart offerings have an output of 650 lumens. When I went to the Lowes site, I found they had a promotion of LED lights ending today. They featured a Sylvania BR30 with 800 lumen output for $10. I decided to buy two of them. One replaces the dead CFL, the other a CFL that's still good. The fixture now has 3 LED's and one CFL. When the CFL dies, we now have a spare to replace it.


----------



## dpeters11

Just saw this regarding a new Cree LED bulb

http://gizmodo.com/crees-latest-led-lightbulb-is-a-bright-bargain-1651479055


----------



## Rich

dpeters11 said:


> Just saw this regarding a new Cree LED bulb
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/crees-latest-led-lightbulb-is-a-bright-bargain-1651479055


Well, that article reinforces my opinion of the Crees. I think they'll be my LED of choice now.

Rich


----------



## dmspen

I had no trouble with wires installing the new dimmers. I did them one at a time - wire out the old dimmer, wire in the same place on the new dimmer.

I wish Cree had R20s. I would have gone with them.

I have a brother-in-law and a friend who are in the commercial LED business and they both swear by Cree as a company.


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> I had no trouble with wires installing the new dimmers. I did them one at a time - wire out the old dimmer, wire in the same place on the new dimmer.
> 
> I wish Cree had R20s. I would have gone with them.
> 
> I have a brother-in-law and a friend who are in the commercial LED business and they both swear by Cree as a company.


I know you said that in a previous post. What I was wondering about was the neutral on the old dimmer, was there a neutral on that? If there was, then I would guess that specific dimmers have to be used with LEDs. The advertising doesn't give that impression. It just says, "dimmable".

Yeah, the Crees have to be the pick of the pack so far. If for no other reason than you can put them in places other maker's LEDs just won't fit. The Crees seem to fit every fixture or every fixture I've tried them in. Can't say that for the Philips LEDs.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Has anyone noticed the increased usage of LEDs on the exterior of cars lately? I see cars with what appears to be strips of LEDs framing the headlights and in other places.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Has anyone noticed the increased usage of LEDs on the exterior of cars lately? I see cars with what appears to be strips of LEDs framing the headlights and in other places.
> 
> Rich


Y, you'll be lucky to find a new car with regular bulbs. (or unlucky!)


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Y, you'll be lucky to find a new car with regular bulbs. (or unlucky!)


I was talking about the way they're kinda decorated with LED strips. Since I only see them at night I don't know what make of cars they're on.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

Oh Audi has been doing that for a while. And a couple others have started now.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Oh Audi has been doing that for a while. And a couple others have started now.


Pretty neat at night. I like it.

Rich


----------



## Athlon646464

Mostly all Cree here (18 '60 watt' equivalent 2700k bulbs). They're dropping in price still at Home Depot. They now have 4 packs for $16.

The other brand I've gone with is TCP which is also American made. I have TCP LED's in my bathroom vanities.

All of my bulbs work with my x-10 system and all dim just fine with out any buzzing noise.

Here's a complete roster of what I have:

*18 of these Cree's installed (now very affordable in 4 packs):*
Cree 60W Equivalent Soft White (2700K) A19 Dimmable LED Light Bulb (4-Pack)
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-4-Pack-BA19-08027OMF-12DE26-2U500/205176808

*4 of these Cree's installed:*
Cree 65W Equivalent Soft White (2700K) BR30 Dimmable LED Flood Light Bulb
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-65W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-BR30-Dimmable-LED-Flood-Light-Bulb-BBR30-06527FLF-12DE26-1U100/204366182#specifications

*7 of these TCP's installed (2 three packs and a single) in two bathroom vanities (4 in one, 3 in the other):*
TCP RLG255W27KND3 LED G25 - 40 Watt Equivalent (only 5W used!) Soft White (2700K) Energy Star Globe Light Bulb 3 - Pack
http://smile.amazon.com/TCP-RLG255W27KND3-LED-G25-Equivalent/dp/B00KYTNHKM/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

I also replaced all of my low voltage halogen landscaping lights with LEDs. I have three Malibu low voltage transformers on my X-10 system running:

*2 of these (they replaced 2 20 watt halogens):*
Paradise GL33760BK Low Voltage Cast Aluminum 3-Watt LED Floodlight, Black
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00378K8MM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

*And 1 of these to light my flag (replaced a 50 watt and a 20 watt halogen):*
Malibu Low Voltage LED 75-Watt Equivalent Outdoor Black Floodlight
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Malibu-Low-Voltage-LED-75-Watt-Equivalent-Outdoor-Black-Floodlight-8401-4675-01/204489888


----------



## SayWhat?

Seems like the holiday light makers have latched on too. Most everything is LED now. Indoor, outdoor, battery powered, longer strings, more lights, better colors, brighter, as well as endless configurations, shapes and styles.

Like room lighting, they were fairly expensive 2-3 years ago, but have fallen quite a bit.


----------



## Drucifer

Athlon646464 said:


> Mostly all Cree here (18 '60 watt' equivalent 2700k bulbs). They're dropping in price still at Home Depot. *They now have 4 packs for $16*.
> 
> The other brand I've gone with is TCP which is also American made. I have TCP LED's in my bathroom vanities.
> 
> All of my bulbs work with my x-10 system and all dim just fine with out any buzzing noise.
> 
> Here's a complete roster of what I have:
> 
> *18 of these Cree's installed (now very affordable in 4 packs):*
> Cree 60W Equivalent Soft White (2700K) A19 Dimmable LED Light Bulb (4-Pack)
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cree-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White-2700K-A19-Dimmable-LED-Light-Bulb-4-Pack-BA19-08027OMF-12DE26-2U500/205176808
> 
> *. . . .*


Just clicked your link and it is $38.97 / each. Which is the same $9+ per bulb I've been seeing for months.


----------



## Athlon646464

Drucifer said:


> Just clicked your link and it is $38.97 / each. Which is the same $9+ per bulb I've been seeing for months.


They've been $4.97 each for months here.

$16.97 for the 4 pack now.

My store is listed as the one in Oxford, MA #2624. I wonder if there are different prices in different parts of the country.

I just clicked on my link in your quoted post of mine.

Was $38.97
$16.97 / each

Save $22.00 (56%)

Pick Up In Store
FREE
Available for Pick Up: Today

21 In stock at:
Oxford,MA #2624
Change Pick Up Store

IN STOCK AT YOUR SELECTED STORE

Oxford,MA #
Oxford, MA 01540
Change Pick Up Store


21 In Stock
Aisle 01, Bay 003


----------



## Drucifer

My local Home Depot is Fishkill, NY


----------



## Athlon646464

Drucifer said:


> My local Home Depot is Fishkill, NY


Might be worth a trip over the border to MA..........


----------



## Drucifer

They're being sold on eBay with Name Your Price w/FREE SHIPPING.

With a round trip of 250 miles the gas would add up to a $50. I'll skip the Home Depot game and play with eBay.


----------



## Athlon646464

They're a little less than $5 each in Connecticut. I don't think you're too far from New Milford.


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Just clicked your link and it is $38.97 / each. Which is the same $9+ per bulb I've been seeing for months.


The HD I use had a lot of boxes of Crees and Philips on the aisle next to the light bulb shelves the other day. Made it seem like a big sale. Same prices I've been paying for them since I started buying them. But, I had to go there Thursday and most of them were gone.

Rich


----------



## Rich

I saw a Jeep with a string of LEDs above the headlights the other day. Don't know if they were an aftermarket add on or the car came like that. 

Rich


----------



## Athlon646464

I read where HD keeps the government rebates, both state and federal, when they sell these bulbs. This lowers our price at the register. Each state must have a different rebate for energy saving bulbs. Lucky me. Not much else is cheaper here in Mass! :grin:


----------



## Groundhog45

I've been getting the Utilitech brand LEDs at Lowe's. They've been around $6 but the price keeps dropping. I like them because I can get 3000K bulbs. They're whiter, not so yellow.


----------



## Drucifer

Groundhog45 said:


> I've been getting the Utilitech brand LEDs at Lowe's. They've been around $6 but the price keeps dropping. I like them because I can get 3000K bulbs. They're whiter, not so yellow.


Are there any full spectrum LEDs?

As I seem to remember not all lights, that you are under for long periods, are good for our eyes


----------



## armophob

Just ordered 24 LED bent tip candelabra for my chandelier. It holds 19. Found them on Amazon for $18 a six pack.

Every time I turn that thing on, I can feel the heat.


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Are there any full spectrum LEDs?
> 
> As I seem to remember not all lights, that you are under for long periods, are good for our eyes


Fluorescent lights have been the cause of many headaches since they came on the scene. That's what the deflector panels on the ceiling fixtures are for. You're not supposed to use bare tubes. I'll be happy to see them phased out.

Rich


----------



## Rich

I gave up on looking at cars with LEDs on them. They're quite ubiquitous now on all the newer cars. Amazes how quickly they've appeared.

Rich


----------



## Rich

armophob said:


> Just ordered 24 LED bent tip candelabra for my chandelier. It holds 19. Found them on Amazon for $18 a six pack.
> 
> Every time I turn that thing on, I can feel the heat.


You should see a big difference in the heat once you put the LEDs in. I'm sitting under a fan with a light kit that has four 60W LEDs in it and I can't feel any heat. I can sure see good, tho.

Rich


----------



## Sixto

Just started the conversion to LED Christmas lights for outside. Picked up 6 boxes of the EcoSmart Minis at Home Depot last night. Gotta figure out how many more, maybe another 6, need to compare to what we usually use outside. 

Converted the tree to LED last year. 

Only 8.4 watts per 100 lights.


----------



## Cholly

Walmart ad in today's paper has 2 packs of GE 11 watt (60 watt equivalent) dimmable LED's for $11.98.


----------



## SayWhat?

One thing that's been bugging me recently about these. May have mentioned it before here, can't remember.

They're electronic. Power surges do funny things to electronics. Replacing a houseful of incandescents is one thing at $4 for a six pack. Replacing a houseful of LEDs could be ummm .... fun.

Incandescents will usually only blow out when turned on. Despite the switch wiring, a surge could take LEDs out even when turned off.


----------



## MysteryMan

SayWhat? said:


> One thing that's been bugging me recently about these. May have mentioned it before here, can't remember.
> 
> They're electronic. Power surges do funny things to electronics. Replacing a houseful of incandescents is one thing at $4 for a six pack. Replacing a houseful of LEDs could be ummm .... fun.
> 
> Incandescents will usually only blow out when turned on. Despite the switch wiring, a surge could take LEDs out even when turned off.


Hence the saying "If it's not broken then don't fix it". Incandescent bulbs were the norm for decades, worked well, and were affordable when needed to be replaced. Then Uncle Sam had a brain fart and forced the conversion to LEDs under the guise of being more efficient and having a longer life span than incandescent bulbs. I've lost count of how many LEDs I've purchased that fell far short of their normal life span do to either power surges or poor quality assurance standards.


----------



## dmspen

I was in Home Depot on Saturday. We were getting our Christmas tree. One of the end caps had Cree 60 watt LED replacement bulbs. They were $9.97 each! It appears prices haven't budged since I started this journey. I think I'm going to get a 6 pack of Cree 40 watters from Amazon for $53. It's certainly less than Home Depot.

Oh, I also picked up 2 60 watt equivalent LEDs at IKEA yesterday. We'll have to see how they work out. Warranty is only 1 year. $4.97/each.


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> One thing that's been bugging me recently about these. May have mentioned it before here, can't remember.
> 
> They're electronic. Power surges do funny things to electronics. Replacing a houseful of incandescents is one thing at $4 for a six pack. Replacing a houseful of LEDs could be ummm .... fun.
> 
> Incandescents will usually only blow out when turned on. Despite the switch wiring, a surge could take LEDs out even when turned off.


I've had a couple of brief power outages and my generator has kicked on, but it hasn't affected the LEDs at all, so far. It has blown out the remote receivers in two of our ceiling fans, which turned out to be a good thing. I had bought several Hunter fans with the remote receivers that you have to install yourself. There is no way to mount the receivers firmly in the fan enclosure, you just stuff it into the enclosure and hope for the best. Both fans I had them in hummed. Nothing I could do stopped the humming. Then the big gennie kicked in for the first time and neither fan would work remotely, but the humming was gone after I removed the receivers and rewired the fans for manual use. That was a good thing. I do hope the generator doesn't cause any problems with the LEDs. Never considered that as a possibility. Now you've got me worried.

Rich


----------



## SayWhat?

My genset isn't hooked up that way. I just run cords. I'm more concerned with lightning. Then there are the utility company surges when trees fall across the lines. Sometimes the power will flicker on and off several times before one of their big breakers kicks out.


----------



## dennisj00

Just lost a $1000 desktop to two quick flicks of a breaker about a month ago. All my LEDs made it with no problem. Even a couple that were on at the time.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Just lost a $1000 desktop to two quick flicks of a breaker about a month ago. All my LEDs made it with no problem. Even a couple that were on at the time.


I would think they'd have to be on to be damaged. What I'm talking about is just inrush current and really should not damage LEDs. They get that same inrush current every time you turn one on. My Hunter fans just had cheap receivers in them and I'll never use them again.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

I use the analogy of your car hitting small potholes and little by little you've got a big alignment problem or you hit one just big enough to break something.

All of the components in any circuit have breakdown voltages. That not only degrades over time but also depends on how robust the circuit was designed to share and dissipate the surge. I'd put my money on Cree rather than some of the Chinese knock-off.

Just think of how robust the hybrid and electric vehicles have to be with 260+ volt / 3phase motors / circuits to make it several hundred thousand miles without a failure.


----------



## SayWhat?

My thinking is this ... sort of.

With a typical snap toggle switch, one leg is broken when the switch is off. The other leg is always connected (usually the white/neutral which is often bonded to the ground. An incandescent will survive a surge when off because it needs both legs to operate at all.

An LED with one leg connected could still be subject to surges that would not bother an incandescent.


Now add in the various electronic switches, remotes, slide dimmers, etc. and that hot leg isn't even truly broken all the time. While a surge usually won't pass an open contact in a toggle switch, it could easily pass the circuitry or rheostats in these switches blowing out both the switch and the LED unit.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> _*Just lost a $1000 desktop to two quick flicks of a breaker*_ about a month ago. All my LEDs made it with no problem. Even a couple that were on at the time.


Did you find out exactly what went bad? Just curious.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> My thinking is this ... sort of.
> 
> With a typical snap toggle switch, one leg is broken when the switch is off. The _*other leg is always connected (usually the white/neutral*_ which is often bonded to the ground. An incandescent will survive a surge when off because it needs both legs to operate at all.
> 
> An LED with one leg connected could still be subject to surges that would not bother an incandescent.
> 
> Now add in the various electronic switches, remotes, slide dimmers, etc. and that hot leg isn't even truly broken all the time. While a surge usually won't pass an open contact in a toggle switch, it could easily pass the circuitry or rheostats in these switches blowing out both the switch and the LED unit.


That's incorrect. The black (hot) wire should always be connected and the other wire coming out of the switch has nothing to do with the neutral wire. I usually use a red wire after the switch, not that it matters. Nor does it matter which screw you put the hot wire on. When the switch is open, no amperage can flow, so anything downstream of the open switch is in the "bench position". You cannot get amperage to flow without a complete circuit.

Any electronic device is first an electric device.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Did you find out exactly what went bad? Just curious.
> 
> Rich


Nope, the worst kind . . . just locks up randomly. I ran repair, reseated memory, replaced memory, re-installed Win and finally gave up. It was an HP that I hated ever buying.


----------



## Herdfan

SayWhat? said:


> My thinking is this ... sort of.
> 
> With a typical snap toggle switch, one leg is broken when the switch is off. The other leg is always connected (usually the white/neutral which is often bonded to the ground. An incandescent will survive a surge when off because it needs both legs to operate at all.


It better be bonded to the ground at the first point of disconnect.


----------



## Drucifer

Most people laugh at North Korea because 99% of the populace live in a mid 19th century existence. But that remaining 1% are attempting to build ICBMs with a nuclear payload with personnel that have computer skills as good as the best in silicon valley.

Remember this, he who laugh last, laugh best!


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Nope, the worst kind . . . just locks up randomly. I ran repair, reseated memory, replaced memory, re-installed Win and finally gave up. It was an HP that I hated ever buying.


Well, sometimes things just die.

Rich


----------



## SayWhat?

What comes down must go up.

I had been wondering abut electric bills recently. Despite some changes, they weren't dropping. Made some ore changes, still no real drop. Went back over the bills for the last 10 years or so (What, you mean YOU don't keep them?) and compared actual usage. Found that average usage had dropped considerably, maybe a couple of hundred kilowatt hours a month.

Also found that the rate had doubled from .05 to .10


Then I looked back at the usage on some of the older bills and figured what they would be at today's rates.

:eek2:
:hair:


----------



## dennisj00

SayWhat? said:


> What comes down must go up.
> 
> I had been wondering abut electric bills recently. Despite some changes, they weren't dropping. Made some ore changes, still no real drop. Went back over the bills for the last 10 years or so (What, you mean YOU don't keep them?) and compared actual usage. Found that average usage had dropped considerably, maybe a couple of hundred kilowatt hours a month.
> 
> Also found that the rate had doubled from .05 to .10
> 
> Then I looked back at the usage on some of the older bills and figured what they would be at today's rates.
> 
> :eek2:
> :hair:


You (and I) are very fortunate that it's sill .10 a KWHr. (mine's 10.5.)


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Well, sometimes things just die.
> 
> Rich


It's not dead, I just gave up on life support!


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> That's incorrect. The black (hot) wire should always be connected and the other wire coming out of the switch has nothing to do with the neutral wire. I usually use a red wire after the switch, not that it matters. Nor does it matter which screw you put the hot wire on. When the switch is open, no amperage can flow, so anything downstream of the open switch is in the "bench position". You cannot get amperage to flow without a complete circuit.
> 
> Any electronic device is first an electric device.
> 
> Rich


Yep which is why switches with the little lights in them or timers in them without needing a neutral and hot line are actually always keeping the circuit complete... I found this out the hard way with CFLs. And by hard way I mean it was driving me nuts trying to figure out why I had occasional light flicker...


----------



## inkahauts

dennisj00 said:


> You (and I) are very fortunate that it's sill .10 a KWHr. (mine's 10.5.)


We have wonderful theirs down here in Southern California...

Edison gets us for ....

Tier 1 - .15

Tier 2 - .19

Tier 3 - .28

Tier 4 - .32


----------



## dmspen

Brief report...
The LEDs I got from IKEA seem to be just fine. There's no lag at turn on and the output is quite warm. Pretty happy with them. We'll see if they last.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Yep which is why switches with the little lights in them or timers in them without needing a neutral and hot line are actually always keeping the circuit complete... I found this out the hard way with CFLs. And by hard way I mean it was driving me nuts trying to figure out why I had occasional light flicker...


I used to work with a guy from Pakistan. He was an EE in Pakistan and worked as an electrician's helper for us. He constantly broke the neutral and used it for the switch. I had to keep fixing every switch he worked on. One day I finally got fed up and confronted him. He took me to a wall switch he had just installed using the neutral wire for the switch and turned the light on and off. Told me it works and couldn't get it into his head how dangerous it was to do that. Then he just disappeared. Never saw him again.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

dmspen said:


> Brief report...
> The LEDs I got from IKEA seem to be just fine. There's no lag at turn on and the output is quite warm. Pretty happy with them. We'll see if they last.


While 3-4 months isn't a very big sample, I second this. We got 2 lamps and 7 bulbs (the two for lamps were smaller sockets) from IKEA in August when we re-did our Master Bedroom / bath. All 7 are less total wattage than one incandescent that was replaced.

The three over the vanity are brighter than FIVE 60s in the old fixture. They were 4.99 or less.


----------



## inkahauts

> I used to work with a guy from Pakistan. He was an EE in Pakistan and worked as an electrician&#39;s helper for us. He constantly broke the neutral and used it for the switch. I had to keep fixing every switch he worked on. One day I finally got fed up and confronted him. He took me to a wall switch he had just installed using the neutral wire for the switch and turned the light on and off. Told me it works and couldn&#39;t get it into his head how dangerous it was to do that. Then he just disappeared. Never saw him again.
> 
> Rich


Good grief. Yet not surprising at all because too many people don&#39;t get how electricity works.

And this is also why I turn off circuit breakers before working on anything. People ask why? I say because I didn&#39;t wire it so who knows how it was wired?!?!?

Can you imagine his work elsewhere? Good grief.


----------



## SayWhat?

Probably depends on the area and when the house was wired. Usually what I see in older houses is that the feed goes to the fixture and a loop goes down to the switch. Black is hot from the fixture to the switch and the white is the switched return, but usually has a wrap of black tape at either end. Probably for older ceiling fans and/or lights with pull chains where the switch was added later.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I used to work with a guy from Pakistan. He was an EE in Pakistan and worked as an electrician&#39;s helper for us. He constantly broke the neutral and used it for the switch. I had to keep fixing every switch he worked on. One day I finally got fed up and confronted him. He took me to a wall switch he had just installed using the neutral wire for the switch and turned the light on and off. Told me it works and couldn&#39;t get it into his head how dangerous it was to do that. Then he just disappeared. Never saw him again.
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief. Yet not surprising at all because too many people don&#39;t get how electricity works.
> 
> And this is also why I turn off circuit breakers before working on anything. People ask why? I say because I didn&#39;t wire it so who knows how it was wired?!?!?
> 
> Can you imagine his work elsewhere? Good grief.
Click to expand...

Can you imagine him being an actual EE? He was, the company checked somehow. For some reason, his status as an EE didn't hold up in this country. He was brutal. Everything he did had to be rechecked. Since this thread started I've been wondering what happened to him. Have no idea how to find out. Aside from his work, he was a pretty interesting guy. Told me a lot about Pakistan. One day, one of the electricians was busting him about his work and he told me in his country he could have killed the guy and not been charged with murder. Don't know if that was true, but it was a bit unsettling.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> Probably depends on the area and when the house was wired. Usually what I see in older houses is that the feed goes to the fixture and a loop goes down to the switch. Black is hot from the fixture to the switch and the white is the switched return, but usually has a wrap of black tape at either end. Probably for older ceiling fans and/or lights with pull chains where the switch was added later.


OK, that clears things up. Putting the black tape on the white wire would signify to me that it wasn't a neutral. I have seen that done. We were taught to use red wires from the switch to the device. Makes things easier to rewire and casts no doubt about it being a neutral wire, which you _*really*_ don't want to use on a wall switch. It's an easy way to electrocute someone.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Wife got us a Wink and a GE LED for Christmas. I spent today initializing the unit with various conversations via phone and email. Took 3 hours or so to get the hub setup and more for an update. But they also acknowledged they had a server problem today.

Looks promising as a system but if they have this kind of problem, they will get slammed after Christmas.


----------



## SayWhat?

I definitely don't need my lights to be smarter than me. A simple switch or a timer is all I need. A few X-10 style remotes scattered around.

The only webs that are ever getting anywhere near my bulbs are the ones from spiders.


----------



## Herdfan

Rich said:


> OK, that clears things up. Putting the black tape on the white wire would signify to me that it wasn't a neutral. I have seen that done. We were taught to use red wires from the switch to the device. Makes things easier to rewire and casts no doubt about it being a neutral wire, which you _*really*_ don't want to use on a wall switch. It's an easy way to electrocute someone.
> 
> Rich


That is more of a conduit thing, which would be used in most commercial/industrial settings. You should see how they use colors in Chicago. It would make things very easy to trace, but not sure if it would overcome the hassle of installing all that conduit.

And yes, the old school method was to wire power to the device and then do a switch loop with the white being re-identified as Hot. The problem is that either it wasn't done, the tape fell off or was removed. This is changing with either the 2011 or 2014 NEC which requires that a neutral either be present or easy installed in the switch box. The reason for the change is that there are now so many electronic switches that need a neutral to power them and hack homeowners are using the ground wire in place of the neutral, which is bad.


----------



## Drucifer

dennisj00 said:


> Wife got us a *Wink and a GE LED for Christmas*. I spent today initializing the unit with various conversations via phone and email. Took 3 hours or so to get the hub setup and more for an update. But they also acknowledged they had a server problem today.
> 
> Looks promising as a system but if they have this kind of problem, they will get slammed after Christmas.


Have my Wink now for just over a month. Took me a week to get the hub blue light to stay solid. Might be because I connected it to my network via a WiFi Tablet and not a Smart Cell. Still don't know what the other colors and flashing mean. I did email them twice, they never responded.

Currently I have my porch light schedule to come on, dim at a certain time and then go off. Same for my stairwell lights. Waiting for the introduction of even smaller bulbs for my hallway.


----------



## SayWhat?

When I rewired this place, I took care of a lot of that by using 12/3 or 14/3 between switch boxes and fixture boxes. Gave me the flexibility to use whatever I wanted later for separate control of ceiling fan motors and light kits.

I still ended up with dimmers, timers, motion switches and/or X-10 type remote switches, all of which could pass a surge and blow an LED bulb. I only have a few actual toggle switches. Even those are the newer type that don't really snap, so I don't know how well they break the circuit. Some of those are Decora style and/or lighted.


----------



## inkahauts

Herdfan said:


> That is more of a conduit thing, which would be used in most commercial/industrial settings. You should see how they use colors in Chicago. It would make things very easy to trace, but not sure if it would overcome the hassle of installing all that conduit.
> 
> And yes, the old school method was to wire power to the device and then do a switch loop with the white being re-identified as Hot. The problem is that either it wasn't done, the tape fell off or was removed. This is changing with either the 2011 or 2014 NEC which requires that a neutral either be present or easy installed in the switch box. The reason for the change is that there are now so many electronic switches that need a neutral to power them and hack homeowners are using the ground wire in place of the neutral, which is bad.


I was just going to point out that it was perfectly acceptable and trained to do a loop for the switch and having the fixture hot all the time.. Nice to know that's finally changing, I hadn't seen that yet. I'd never wire a loop unless I had to by code or it was an old home I was adding a switch and no other way to do it... I can't understand doing it any other way if its new construction than power to the switch...


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> _*That is more of a conduit thing, which would be used in most commercial/industrial settings.*_ You should see how they use colors in Chicago. It would make things very easy to trace, but not sure if it would overcome the hassle of installing all that conduit.
> 
> And yes, the old school method was to wire power to the device and then do a switch loop with the white being re-identified as Hot. The problem is that either it wasn't done, the tape fell off or was removed. This is changing with either the 2011 or 2014 NEC which requires that a neutral either be present or easy installed in the switch box. The reason for the change is that there are now so many electronic switches that need a neutral to power them and hack homeowners are using the ground wire in place of the neutral, which is bad.


We were taught to use a different color wire than black after a switch while I was an apprentice. White, black and green weren't acceptable. Red was the preferable color. This was taught to us in classrooms, not on the job. Had nothing to do with conduit. That was back in the early '70s.

At that time, when we pulled wire thru conduit, we just pulled the amount of wires and their colors thru the conduit according to the spec packages we got from Engineering. I questioned that because we didn't use anything to distinguish the wires. At the end of the pull, an electrician at each end of the run would have a radio and they'd ring out each wire and then mark them. As soon as I finished my apprenticeship and got to run the jobs, I marked each wire on both ends before we made the pull and used the next largest size conduit. Those EEs that produced the specs for the conduit runs always put the maximum number of wires for a particular size of conduit as mandated by the code. They didn't have to pull the wires thru the conduit, so they didn't care how difficult it was to pull a full bundle of wires around corners or thru saddles.

Of course, those changes that I made weren't happily accepted by the electricians or the engineers. The cost of materials went up, and the daily labor costs and overtime went down so it was pretty much a wash, but it really aggravated the electricians who really only worked a couple hours a day and lived for overtime which got in the way of my baseball games. Made my bosses happy when the job got done in a whole lot less time than the estimate. But that only lasted for a year or so and I spent the rest of my time as an electrician troubleshooting. By that time, I'd had enough of that donkey work and was happy with my new job, which was only supposed to be for a year but lasted for ten years. Then I got promoted to management and found out what working all day and into the night was like. And I wasn't allowed to play ball anymore.

Rich


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I was just going to point out that it was perfectly acceptable and trained to do a loop for the switch and having the fixture hot all the time.. Nice to know that's finally changing, I hadn't seen that yet. I'd never wire a loop unless I had to by code or it was an old home I was adding a switch and no other way to do it... I can't understand doing it any other way if its new construction than power to the switch...


It was never acceptable to have the fixture hot all the time once it finally occurred to the powers that be that it was a perfect way to get shocked. The only way you can do that is to use the neutral wire for the switch. There really shouldn't be any argument about this, using the neutral on a wall switch is now considered an act of stupidity. I even called OSHA about that. Their basic rule concerning working on a device that has a switch is that if you have total control of the switch, you can work on it without locking out the circuit (this might have changed, it's been a long time since I was in a position to question any of OSHA's rules). In other words, if you were changing a ballast in a fixture in an office and could see the switch and lock the door of the office it was perfectly acceptable to work on the ballast without going thru lockout hoops. My issue with that was the neutral being used as the switch wire. They didn't think anyone would do that, but I assured them that it was more common than they thought.

We changed our procedures about that after a meeting where I related my experiences with my Pakistani friend so that the CB had to be in the off position and the wire from the CB had to be pulled out of the CB. Or you had to lock out the whole CB panel. Once you change your procedures so that they are more stringent than OSHA's, they go by your procedures.

When the hot work rules changed in the early '90s, all those rules disappeared and you had to work on a dead circuit or be suited up and wear face protection to work on potentially hot circuitry. That pretty much put to rest my concerns that I wrote about in this post.

Rich


----------



## SayWhat?

Rich said:


> We were taught to use a different color wire than black after a switch while I was an apprentice. White, black and green weren't acceptable. Red was the preferable color. This was taught to us in classrooms, not on the job. Had nothing to do with conduit. That was back in the early '70s.


Blue, yellow, violet and pink were some others. Usually if you had a secondary switch controlling a different device from the same box.

Some were used only for special purposes though like signalling devices.


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> Blue, yellow, violet and pink were some others. Usually if you had a secondary switch controlling a different device from the same box.
> 
> Some were used only for special purposes though like signalling devices.


The wires also come with stripes (for want of the right word which I can't remember) of varying colors to denote differences.

Good posting, opened up a subject everyone should be familiar with. Thanx.

Rich


----------



## SayWhat?

^^ Tracers.


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> ^^ Tracers.


Yeah, that's it. I kept thinking trailers, but I knew that was wrong. Thanx.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> It was never acceptable to have the fixture hot all the time once it finally occurred to the powers that be that it was a perfect way to get shocked. The only way you can do that is to use the neutral wire for the switch. There really shouldn't be any argument about this, using the neutral on a wall switch is now considered an act of stupidity. I even called OSHA about that. Their basic rule concerning working on a device that has a switch is that if you have total control of the switch, you can work on it without locking out the circuit (this might have changed, it's been a long time since I was in a position to question any of OSHA's rules). In other words, if you were changing a ballast in a fixture in an office and could see the switch and lock the door of the office it was perfectly acceptable to work on the ballast without going thru lockout hoops. My issue with that was the neutral being used as the switch wire. They didn't think anyone would do that, but I assured them that it was more common than they thought.
> 
> We changed our procedures about that after a meeting where I related my experiences with my Pakistani friend so that the CB had to be in the off position and the wire from the CB had to be pulled out of the CB. Or you had to lock out the whole CB panel. Once you change your procedures so that they are more stringent than OSHA's, they go by your procedures.
> 
> When the hot work rules changed in the early '90s, all those rules disappeared and you had to work on a dead circuit or be suited up and wear face protection to work on potentially hot circuitry. That pretty much put to rest my concerns that I wrote about in this post.
> 
> Rich


I think I didn't make that clear. Power is live in the box but the hot line then deviates to the switch and back. So while the fixture isn't always hot, but there are wires in the box that are.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I think I didn't make that clear. Power is live in the box but the hot line then deviates to the switch and back. So while the fixture isn't always hot, but there are wires in the box that are.


That's much clearer. Yes, there are always hot wires in boxes unless the CB is turned off. But once you turn off the switch for, say, your bathroom light/fan there should be no hot wires in that device.

Rich


----------



## Herdfan

Rich said:


> We were taught to use a different color wire than black after a switch while I was an apprentice. White, black and green weren't acceptable. Red was the preferable color. T


How did that work out when using Romex?


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> How did that work out when using Romex?


Just fine. I keep a small roll of red stranded wire along with several other small rolls of black and white stranded wire in my garage. I've had them for years and I guess I'll never use them up. In a small box, stranded wire is easier to pack into the box than solid wire. So, Romex up to the box just to feed whatever is going into the box and then stranded wire to make the connections. You can pack a whole lot more stranded wire into a box than solid wire. In conduit, we rarely used solid wire. Romex and its solid wire has an intrinsic danger if you don't know how to use it properly. Same thing with BX, which can be really dangerous. We had to use BX in our plant in most new wiring situations and I really don't trust it. When properly used, it's fine, but I've seen too many bad things happen with BX to ever use it if I didn't have to.

Rich


----------



## Rich

*Say What* has a thread running in the OT about a hum he hears in just one ear. The other night I'm laying bed reading and I hear what sounds like a very low 60 cycle hum. Just in my right ear, just like his problem! So, not wanting to believe it's my ear that's causing the hum, praying that it's not, I start to search the room. Figure it must be one of the 24-500s making that noise. Nope. The TV? Even tho it's off? Nope. Then I start crawling on the floor thinking maybe a wall wort is going south. Nope. Check my dustbuster that's charging. Nope. Shut the windows (I always sleep with at least one window open) and lay back in bed convinced the hum is coming from outside. Nope, it's now worse! Only one thing left, the Quoizel light beside my bed. Sure enough it was the light that I'm using a 100W LED Cree in. I take out the chimney and tighten the Cree and the hum is gone. Replace the chimney and still no hum. Problem solved! Nope.

Last night, I start reading and the hum is back. Okay, now I know where to look. I pull the LED bulb out and go downstairs and get another 100W Cree and put it in the lamp. No hum. But as I look at the top of the Cree I see "Cree" imprinted on the top of the bulb. I then check the other bulb that was humming and what I thought was a Cree turns out to be Feit LED. Must have bought that one at Costco early on. I'll never buy another Feit LED again. Of course, with my luck, that might have been the only Feit in the world that develops a hum, but I'll not take a chance, I'll stick with the Crees.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

More on the Wink Home Automation system. The GE lamp works great with their robots (rules you define - eg. If we return home, turn on the light . . ) or schedules and remotely from the IOS app.

Added a Kidde smoke / CO2 alarm on Christmas eve. Got another one today for the other end of the house and found that the app only displays the first but other units are networked such if any is alarmed (or tested) it shows in the app.

Got a remote coming Sunday or Monday.


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> *Say What* has a thread running in the OT about a hum he hears in just one ear. The other night I'm laying bed reading and I hear what sounds like a very low 60 cycle hum. Just in my right ear, just like his problem! So, not wanting to believe it's my ear that's causing the hum, praying that it's not, I start to search the room. Figure it must be one of the 24-500s making that noise. Nope. The TV? Even tho it's off? Nope. Then I start crawling on the floor thinking maybe a wall wort is going south. Nope. Check my dustbuster that's charging. Nope. Shut the windows (I always sleep with at least one window open) and lay back in bed convinced the hum is coming from outside. Nope, it's now worse! Only one thing left, the Quoizel light beside my bed. Sure enough it was the light that I'm using a 100W LED Cree in. I take out the chimney and tighten the Cree and the hum is gone. Replace the chimney and still no hum. Problem solved! Nope.
> 
> Last night, I start reading and the hum is back. Okay, now I know where to look. I pull the LED bulb out and go downstairs and get another 100W Cree and put it in the lamp. No hum. But as I look at the top of the Cree I see "Cree" imprinted on the top of the bulb. I then check the other bulb that was humming and what I thought was a Cree turns out to be Feit LED. Must have bought that one at Costco early on. I'll never buy another Feit LED again. Of course, with my luck, that might have been the only Feit in the world that develops a hum, but I'll not take a chance, I'll stick with the Crees.
> 
> Rich


I have all fiets and no hums. But as you say with your luck!!!


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I have all fiets and no hums. But as you say with your luck!!!


Yeah, if was going to happen to one person, I guess I'd be a prime candidate. At least it wasn't my ear. Hummmmmmmm.

Rich


----------



## Cholly

In my household, we still have an abundance of 60 to 100 watt incandescents and CFL's waiting to be used. As the CFL track lights in the kitchen die, they get replaced with LED's. I replaced the 8 incandescent bulbs over my vanity several years ago with 60 watt equivalent globe type (G series) CFL's (which take forever to come to full brightness ). I'd replace them with LED's if they weren't so expensive ($14.97 each for TCP's at Home Depot, $11.88 for Great Value at Walmart.) We still use incandescent or halogen outoor reflector floods.


----------



## Rich

Cholly said:


> In my household, we still have an abundance of 60 to 100 watt incandescents and CFL's waiting to be used. As the CFL track lights in the kitchen die, they get replaced with LED's. I replaced the 8 incandescent bulbs over my vanity several years ago with 60 watt equivalent globe type (G series) CFL's (which take forever to come to full brightness ). I'd replace them with LED's if they weren't so expensive ($14.97 each for TCP's at Home Depot, $11.88 for Great Value at Walmart.) We still use incandescent or halogen outoor reflector floods.


I'm pretty close to having everything changed out to LEDs. Don't even want to know how much this is costing, it's well worth it. I didn't realize what a difference the LEDs would make. So far, I've only lost one and had one hum annoyingly, that's in the utility room now where it can't annoy me anymore. I'd also urge you to concentrate on getting Crees, they just seem to be better in many ways than the other brands. And they look better.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Well, the new year started out with a dead 100W Cree! So far, I've lost a Philips 60W and now the Cree. Now I'm wondering if the hype about these LED is just more BS based on nothing. This one cost me ~ $20, so it's going back to HD tomorrow. Jeez, I just can't win. :nono2:

Rich


----------



## Cholly

Rich said:


> Well, the new year started out with a dead 100W Cree! So far, I've lost a Philips 60W and now the Cree. Now I'm wondering if the hype about these LED is just more BS based on nothing. This one cost me ~ $20, so it's going back to HD tomorrow. Jeez, I just can't win. :nono2:
> 
> Rich


Take the Cree with you. They should exchange it for you.


----------



## Rich

Cholly said:


> Take the Cree with you. They should exchange it for you.


I just took it back. The woman at the return register asked me how long I've had it. Told her not long, Certainly not as long as the "10 year guarantee" on the package. We don't honor that, she said. Gave her the receipt. Around two months. Asked her if she honored that. Got my money back. I hate returning stuff. The bulb was like new and I'll bet they taped it to the cardboard holder I had it in and put it right back on the shelf.

Rich


----------



## Drucifer

Rich said:


> I just took it back. The woman at the return register asked me how long I've had it. Told her not long, Certainly not as long as the "10 year guarantee" on the package. We don't honor that, she said. Gave her the receipt. Around two months. Asked her if she honored that. Got my money back. I hate returning stuff. The bulb was like new and I'll bet they taped it to the cardboard holder I had it in and *put it right back on the shelf*.
> 
> Rich


I write '_broken_' or '_defective_' all over the boxes of my returns.


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> I write '_broken_' or '_defective_' all over the boxes of my returns.


Never considered that. Good idea! I know Lowes and HD in our area are putting returns back on the shelves. I'll start doing that. Our dismal Walmart does it too.

Rich


----------



## Drucifer

Rich said:


> Never considered that. Good idea! I know Lowes and HD in our area are putting returns back on the shelves. I'll start doing that. Our dismal Walmart does it too.
> 
> Rich


Yep, I saw that. They throw all returns into one bin/cart.


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Yep, I saw that. They throw all returns into one bin/cart.


When Lowes and HD first appeared it was common practice for them to put returned items back on the shelves. Caused a real uproar from people buying damaged items that had clearly been repacked and put back on the shelves. Most of the people working at the stores had rolls of packing tape on their belts so they could do this faster. The uproar caused them to stop, but they're doing it again openly. I talked to the manager (at least he said he was the manager) of our Lowes and he openly admitted to doing it again. Told me that people were buying power washers and using them and returning them immediately. I was returning a power washer that didn't work and had broken pieces of it inside the box. After he assured me that all the items were checked for proper operation before they were resold I showed him what was inside the box I was returning. His comment: Well, that shouldn't have happened. My comment: How do you get away with selling previously used items as new? He had no answer for that.

Rich


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## dpeters11

Computer manufacturers got in a lot of trouble for that, that's why we have things like the Dell or Apple outlet.


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> Never considered that. Good idea! I know Lowes and HD in our area are putting returns back on the shelves. I'll start doing that. Our dismal Walmart does it too.
> 
> Rich


If it's rtv able then they shouldn't. They always ask me if its defective. If I say yes they out a sticker on it as is normal procedure for well run places.


----------



## Drucifer

inkahauts said:


> If it's rtv able then they shouldn't. They always ask me if its defective. If I say yes they out a sticker on it as is normal procedure for well run places.


Peeling a sticker and placing it on the package is looked upon as additional work by minimum wage employees.


----------



## inkahauts

If they are even minimum wage at my store they have no issue doing that.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> If it's rtv able then they shouldn't. They always ask me if its defective. If I say yes they out a sticker on it as is normal procedure for well run places.


Costco does that here, I've never seen it done in Lowes or HD. Don't know about Walmart, don't buy much of anything there.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Peeling a sticker and placing it on the package is looked upon as additional work by minimum wage employees.


I don't think HD pays minimum wage. I was offered a job in the electrical department a few years ago by a manager and it was well over the minimum wage. Walmart pays as little as it can get away with, I think that's common knowledge. Not sure about Lowes.

Rich


----------



## Drucifer

*Cree's Latest LED Bulb*
*Provides Low-Cost Smart Home Functionality*



> by CHRIS WOOD
> 
> Back in October, Cree released an improved version of its LED bulb, revamping its cooling system while hitting an affordable price point. The company's latest effort continues the trend, adding in smart home functionality while keeping the price down and the energy efficiency high.
> 
> Like its lower-tech sibling, the _Connected Cree LED Bulb_ features durable, shatter-proof construction. It's compatible with _Wink-_ and _ZigBee-_certified hubs, allowing users to control and schedule the bulb, including its dimming abilities, from both _iOS_ and _Android_ devices. Though the company isn't ready to go into specifics, it does plan to officially support other hubs in future, as well as key platforms such as Apple's _HomeKit_.
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> The Connected Cree LED Bulb will be available for purchase from Home Depot later this month for US$14.97.
> 
> Source: _Cree_


*WHOLE ARTICLE*


----------



## Drucifer

Nice to have Cree added to my Wink, but I'm still looking for 40W Smart LED Bulbs.


----------



## dennisj00

Drucifer said:


> Nice to have Cree added to my Wink, but I'm still looking for 40W Smart LED Bulbs.


The LED usage is so low and you can dim them with Wink.


----------



## dmspen

I need a good 50/100/150 equivalent 3 way LED bulb. The current incandescent in the Living Room fitzes on the lower setting. I hope that's clear.

DEF: fitz: to make fzt sounds and flicker.


----------



## Rich

Lost another Cree 100W bulb last night. I was reading and it kept flickering. I gotta take one of these things apart and see how they work. Just returned it to HD. Bought another one. I'm not doing so well with LEDs. :nono2:

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

Rich try another fiet someday. You have nothing to lose..


----------



## Groundhog45

I've been using the Utilitech brand from Lowe's. No failures yet. And I can get 3000K bulbs there. Not as yellow as the 2700K.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Rich try another fiet someday. You have nothing to lose..


The only place I see them for sale is Costco. The hummer I got was probably the only hummer they made, with my luck. I'll try another one, I'm not too thrilled with the Crees now.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Groundhog45 said:


> I've been using the Utilitech brand from Lowe's. No failures yet. And I can get 3000K bulbs there. Not as yellow as the 2700K.


I'll have to try one or two of them.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

Rich said:


> The only place I see them for sale is Costco. The hummer I got was probably the only hummer they made, with my luck. I'll try another one, I'm not too thrilled with the Crees now.
> 
> Rich


They have them all over around here, but I usually get them at costco because they are better priced there. ACE hardware stores usually have them too. Also some lowes and homedepot, but they are packaged different than costco so you don't notice them usually. But I have a feeling they do stuff regionally with things like the bulbs, yo may not find them at home improvement stores at all back there, who knows.


----------



## SayWhat?

Rich said:


> I'm pretty close to having everything changed out to LEDs. Don't even want to know how much this is costing,


I still want to know what's going to happen with a lightning strike/power surge.


----------



## SayWhat?

Drucifer said:


> Like its lower-tech sibling, the Connected Cree LED Bulb features durable, shatter-proof construction.


We have a discount store that sells returned/closeout/discounted/discontinued items for a fraction of the original price. Place is kind of a mess with loose stuff and open boxes, but you can get some decent deals, IF the stuff works.

Found several of these Cree lamps there for less than half price. On a couple of them, the bulb/globe part had come loose from the base. It isn't glass, probably some kind of acrylic. Some silicone RTV reattached it to the base.

The electronic guts are mounted to the screw in lamp base and 'raised' on a pedestal out into the center of the globe area.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> They have them all over around here, but I usually get them at costco because they are better priced there. ACE hardware stores usually have them too. Also some lowes and homedepot, but they are packaged different than costco so you don't notice them usually. But I have a feeling they do stuff regionally with things like the bulbs, yo may not find them at home improvement stores at all back there, who knows.


We don't have many hardware stores here. Not like it used to be. Not since Lowes and HD moved in. What we are left with are expensive stores that have better quality items than HD or Lowes. When I say expensive, I mean shockingly high prices.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> I still want to know what's going to happen with a lightning strike/power surge.


I get a pretty good surge when my NG generator kicks on. Blew out two remote control receivers in two of my Hunter fans. Turned out to be a good thing, both fans had a hum to them that I couldn't figure out. As soon as the receivers blew, I took them out and rewired the fans so the pull chains worked and threw the receivers away. The hum went away. In the new Hunter fans you have to stuff the receiver into the fan housing and that was causing the hums. None of my LEDs were adversely affected.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> We have a discount store that sells returned/closeout/discounted/discontinued items for a fraction of the original price. Place is kind of a mess with loose stuff and open boxes, but you can get some decent deals, IF the stuff works.
> 
> Found several of these Cree lamps there for less than half price. On a couple of them, the bulb/globe part had come loose from the base. _*It isn't glass, probably some kind of acrylic.*_ Some silicone RTV reattached it to the base.
> 
> The electronic guts are mounted to the screw in lamp base and 'raised' on a pedestal out into the center of the globe area.


The Crees don't even feel like glass bulbs. I thought that was some kind of coating they put on the glass. Interesting, I gotta take one apart.

Rich


----------



## SayWhat?

Wonder if Homeowner's Insurance would cover these in a mass blowout since they're electronics. One or two would be no big deal, but a whole houseful could run into the hundreds of dollars. Even if you have a rider to cover things like stereos and TVs, would these be covered?


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> Wonder if Homeowner's Insurance would cover these in a mass blowout since they're electronics. One or two would be no big deal, but a whole houseful could run into the hundreds of dollars. Even if you have a rider to cover things like stereos and TVs, would these be covered?


I dunno. We've got Liberty Mutual and I'm not calling them up to find out. I'm gonna dump them as quickly as I can. They really screwed me over on last year's roof replacement. I think most people have a $500 deductible. I don't have that many LEDs.

Rich


----------



## Herdfan

Rich said:


> The Crees don't even feel like glass bulbs. I thought that was some kind of coating they put on the glass. Interesting, I gotta take one apart.
> 
> Rich


They are glass inside. My mom lives alone and likes to keep lights on. So I have gone around and replaced all the ones she keeps on with LED's. I dropped one and the side of it shattered. It maintained its shape, but you could tell it was busted underneath. Put it in anyway and it worked just fine.


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> They are glass inside. My mom lives alone and likes to keep lights on. So I have gone around and replaced all the ones she keeps on with LED's. I dropped one and the side of it shattered. It maintained its shape, but you could tell it was busted underneath. Put it in anyway and it worked just fine.


Can't help but wonder how long it will last.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Can't help but wonder how long it will last.
> 
> Rich


As long as the circuit board wiring to the socket and LEDs wasn't damaged, probably as long as any. No vacuum involved in the glass /plastic enclosure.

Where an incandescent lamp (also halogen, etc) are just a resistance wired across the 120 volt line, LEDs have a buck / boost switching power supply that limits current to the LEDs - either in series or parallel.

Like any electronic circuit, the components have a surge value that offers protection. Incandescent lamps usually blow from the inrush current to the cold filament (lower resistance) when you turn it on.


----------



## Herdfan

Rich said:


> Can't help but wonder how long it will last.
> 
> Rich


Have the same thought. But it has been running for a couple of months 24/7. So we will see. But I was surprised it worked at all.


----------



## SayWhat?

Shouldn't have any effect on it if only the outer shell is damaged. As noted above, it isn't functional in any way. It's just a diffuser so you're not seeing the emitter and the bright points. Basically decoration.

Now if the circuit was damaged in any way, there might be a problem, but then again, it probably wouldn't have worked at all.


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> Have the same thought. But it has been running for a couple of months 24/7. So we will see. But I was surprised it worked at all.


Now I'm getting ready to take a hammer to one. I really have to do something about my laziness. I should know how these things work, there was a time when I knew just about how every electrical device worked, but...It's just so much easier to be lazy.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Now I'm getting ready to take a hammer to one. I really have to do something about my laziness. I should know how these things work, there was a time when I knew just about how every electrical device worked, but...It's just so much easier to be lazy.
> 
> Rich


Rich, Here's a project for you . . . under cabinet LEDs for under $20 plus an old laptop supply. Or Lowe's has a Utilitech 110 volt strip for $19. https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1722


----------



## SayWhat?

I've been using these in cabinets, curios and undercabinet:










They're available in most auto parts stores and come in a variety of colors, styles and configurations. You can cut these to length and solder new leads on the pieces you cut off. Power with a 12VDC wall wart or a battery if power isn't close.


----------



## SayWhat?

They're not 'cheap' as such, but since they're so easy to use, they fit more applications than most 110VAC units and beat the stuffing out of the old piano style fixtures with 40W corn cob bulbs or the 10W halogen hockey pucks. Virtually no heat at all either if you have collectibles in the case.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Rich, Here's a project for you . . . under cabinet LEDs for under $20 plus an old laptop supply. Or Lowe's has a Utilitech 110 volt strip for $19. https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1722


Dennis. I've made a hobby out of laziness. No joke. That project holds absolutely no interest to me. Too much work. That Utilitech strip is something I'll have to check out. I've been meaning to replace the halogen lights under our cabinets with LEDs, that might be the simple answer. Appreciate the thought and the link.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> They're not 'cheap' as such, but since they're so easy to use, they fit more applications than most 110VAC units and beat the stuffing out of the old piano style fixtures with 40W corn cob bulbs or the 10W halogen hockey pucks. Virtually no heat at all either if you have collectibles in the case.


I gotta check them out. I'm sick of replacing those damned halogen lights and I don't trust them. Far too much heat. A friend of ours put them on top of his cabinets and his wife put dried plants on the top of the cabinets. Fortunately, we got there for a visit and got the dried plants down before they burned the whole place down.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Dennis. I've made a hobby out of laziness. No joke. That project holds absolutely no interest to me. Too much work. That Utilitech strip is something I'll have to check out. I've been meaning to replace the halogen lights under our cabinets with LEDs, that might be the simple answer. Appreciate the thought and the link.
> 
> Rich


I understand completely! I've got too many projects going on and a big list that's next. Fortunately, some are outside or in the basement and will wait for warmer weather.

Watch the video, it'll give you an idea how your lamps work. Just a 110 volt AC supply instead of 12v DC.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> _*I understand completely!*_ I've got too many projects going on and a big list that's next. Fortunately, some are outside or in the basement and will wait for warmer weather.
> 
> Watch the video, it'll give you an idea how your lamps work. Just a 110 volt AC supply instead of 12v DC.


Good! I thought my post sounded kind of rude, didn't mean it that way. I did watch the video. I did the wiring in the kitchen when we had it redone and I put receptacles in the cabinets then, so it shouldn't be hard to hook up anything.

Rich


----------



## Rich

We just had a new garage door installed. Also got an opener for it, first time I've ever had one. During a conversation with the installer (who really did an excellent job), we got on the subject of light bulbs for the new opener. He told me that Crees screw up the opener. They kept installing openers with Crees and they kept having problems with the remote controllers. By chance, he happened to unscrew a Cree while troubleshooting and the problem went away. Put the Cree back in and the problem returned. They don't use Crees anymore. 

Naturally, with my luck, the Crees are my favorite LED bulbs, but I had a Feit that was humming in my utility room and we found another Philips bulb on a shelf and installed them and had no problems. So, if you're having problems with your garage door openers or any other remote controlled device that is illuminated you might want to switch the LEDs around and see if one particular brand is the problem.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

I had a similar problem with a change in garage door openers. Not LED related but anything goes when talking about today's electronics.

I had an Overhead Door opener with the conventional 'not smart' button and openers. About 20' as the conduit flies, an outlet on the garage wall - I plugged a 'Gateway' for my solar panels which talked to the panels via PLC (power line communication) and transferred the data to Enphase, the inverter company.

That worked for a year or so and the opener failed and I replaced it with a Chamberlain with 'smart' controls - plugged into the same circuit / conduit 20' from the wall outlet.

Two days later I realized data on the solar panels had quit on the afternoon that I plugged the Chamberlain in.

To make a long story short, I moved the 'Gateway' to the basement on an outlet from the panel of the solar panels.

I emailed Chamberlain - and they indicated no clue to why this happened.

(Maybe it was a DirecTV DVR that caused it!)

And I do have 2 CFLs in the opener - moved from the overhead door opener. Incandescents didn't last long there.


----------



## SayWhat?

Sometimes new isn't better. I have a Genie Screw Drive (circa 1999 or so) with dumb buttons and rolling code remotes. I always hated the limited light from the two enclosed 40W bulbs. A simple modification to the two socketss, a little wire and a few more sockets and I have six CFLs that come on with the opener, lighting the whole garage quite well.

If new openers are that flaky to outside influences, I hope mine never has to be replaced.


----------



## armophob

Keep the receipts for the LED's. I have returned 5 of them in the last year or so.
And have gotten store credit each time.


----------



## fleckrj

armophob said:


> Keep the receipts for the LED's. I have returned 5 of them in the last year or so.
> And have gotten store credit each time.


I do not know why you had to return 5 LEDs, but one thing that will destroy a LED or CFL bulb quickly is overheating. If you have a multiple bulb fixture, you cannot mix incandescent bulbs with LED or CFL. If you do, the heat from the incandescent bulb will damage the transformer at the base of the LED or CFL.


----------



## fleckrj

Rich said:


> Lost another Cree 100W bulb last night. I was reading and it kept flickering. I gotta take one of these things apart and see how they work. Just returned it to HD. Bought another one. I'm not doing so well with LEDs. :nono2:
> 
> Rich


I have two Cree 100W that flicker when I first turn them on, but the flickering stops within a minute and does not return until the next time I turn them on after they have been off for a while. I usually use either the Cree 60W or the Cree 3-way bulbs, and I have more than 30 of the Cree 65W equivalent recessed lights, and I have never had that problem with any Cree bulb other than the 100W. With the 100W, I have had two out of three flicker.


----------



## armophob

fleckrj said:


> I do not know why you had to return 5 LEDs, but one thing that will destroy a LED or CFL bulb quickly is overheating. If you have a multiple bulb fixture, you cannot mix incandescent bulbs with LED or CFL. If you do, the heat from the incandescent bulb will damage the transformer at the base of the LED or CFL.


These are flood lights in recessed light high hats.
Even thought hey are covered in insulation in the attic, that would be the hottest place inside the house.
And they do turn that 70's ashtray yellow at the base.
But until they say that voids the warranty, I will keep returning them.
The one I just returned lasted 3 years.


----------



## Rich

fleckrj said:


> I have two Cree 100W that flicker when I first turn them on, but the flickering stops within a minute and does not return until the next time I turn them on after they have been off for a while. I usually use either the Cree 60W or the Cree 3-way bulbs, and I have more than 30 of the Cree 65W equivalent recessed lights, and I have never had that problem with any Cree bulb other than the 100W. With the 100W, I have had two out of three flicker.


That Cree never stopped flickering once it started. And then I had a Feit in that same lamp and it hummed. That's now in the garage door opener, apparently the humming doesn't bother the opener.

Rich


----------



## Rich

armophob said:


> These are flood lights in recessed light high hats.
> Even thought hey are covered in insulation in the attic, that would be the hottest place inside the house.
> And they do turn that 70's ashtray yellow at the base.
> But until they say that voids the warranty, I will keep returning them.
> The one I just returned lasted 3 years.


We're being used as testers, just as we still are for fluorescents. But, how else can the makers learn what problems occur when you use something? They can't possibly test them in every device.

Rich


----------



## satcrazy

just put in a 75 watt led warm white "utilitech" [ Feit] from Lowes in a lamp a week ago. so far so good. It's on a timer and needs to run about 4 hours.

No hum.

Next one will be a 40 watt led [ again on a timer] to replace a cfl.

Indoor cfl's make me nervous, a couple of years back I had one burn out in the living room where I fell asleep watching TV. It produced an odor that required open doors, windows and fans. This is about 3AM. After a google search, I realized they are not so safe.

By the way, speaking of odors, did "Armophob" ever resolve his flat screen cigarette smell?


----------



## armophob

satcrazy said:


> just put in a 75 watt led warm white "utilitech" [ Feit] from Lowes in a lamp a week ago. so far so good. It's on a timer and needs to run about 4 hours.
> 
> No hum.
> 
> Next one will be a 40 watt led [ again on a timer] to replace a cfl.
> 
> Indoor cfl's make me nervous, a couple of years back I had one burn out in the living room where I fell asleep watching TV. It produced an odor that required open doors, windows and fans. This is about 3AM. After a google search, I realized they are not so safe.
> 
> By the way, speaking of odors, did "Armophob" ever resolve his flat screen cigarette smell?


Before the LED change out, I had a couple CFL's "Flame" out. They sounded like one of those firework cones you put in the driveway. No real flame but scary just the same.

And no to the smoke smell yet. I did get it off the wall and have it in a spare bedroom on a rack.
So I don't smell it in the master bedroom anymore.
Next couple days off, I will take it apart and start on it.


----------



## dmspen

I have a couple of Cree 60 watters in my living room. I'v noticed they attract bugs. The little flies like to sit on top of the bulb...then die. Since the bulbs are slightly tacky, maybe they are getting stuck.
Anyone else seen LED use as a bug killer?


----------



## Herdfan

Has anyone tried any of the Duracell LED's? I was in a Batteries + yesterday and there was a display of them. What I liked was they seemed to dim down quite well. Of course maybe the display was rigged a bit to create that effect.


----------



## Rich

satcrazy said:


> just put in a 75 watt led warm white "utilitech" [ Feit] from Lowes in a lamp a week ago. so far so good. It's on a timer and needs to run about 4 hours.
> 
> No hum.
> 
> Next one will be a 40 watt led [ again on a timer] to replace a cfl.
> 
> Indoor cfl's make me nervous, a couple of years back I had one burn out in the living room where I fell asleep watching TV. It produced an odor that required open doors, windows and fans. This is about 3AM. After a google search, I realized they are not so safe.
> 
> By the way, speaking of odors, did "Armophob" ever resolve his flat screen cigarette smell?


Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Feits. With my luck, I got the only hummer in the world.

Fluorescents have made me nervous for years. Didn't start with the CFLs, started with old fixtures with starters in them and ballasts without thermal protection that contained carcinogens. PCBs, I think it was.

Thing about fluorescents is that they've never stopped testing them on an unsuspecting public.

Now, I'm beginning to wonder about the LEDs.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dmspen said:


> I have a couple of Cree 60 watters in my living room. I'v noticed they attract bugs. The little flies like to sit on top of the bulb...then die. Since the bulbs are slightly tacky, maybe they are getting stuck.
> Anyone else seen LED use as a bug killer?


Not yet, but summer's coming here one of these days, if it ever stops snowing, and I'll keep an eye on my Crees. I wondered about that sticky, tacky substance they use on the Crees. Never considered bugs getting stuck on them. I am so very tempted to put a Cree in the garage door opener just to see what happens.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> Has anyone tried any of the Duracell LED's? I was in a Batteries + yesterday and there was a display of them. What I liked was they seemed to dim down quite well. Of course maybe the display was rigged a bit to create that effect.


Haven't seen any of them yet. Don't use dimmers.

Rich


----------



## Herdfan

Rich said:


> Haven't seen any of them yet. Don't use dimmers.
> 
> Rich


Almost every switch in my house is a dimmer. I was saving energy before this whole light bulb thing became a thing. 

Back when my house was built in the early 90's, recessed lights were the big thing. So the electricians put them everywhere because they got paid by the fixture. I mean if a room could take 4, they put in 6 because it is not any more wire and they made more money. So there are just too many in the house and the light was overpowering, even with lower wattage bulbs. So when I installed a lighting control system, I installed dimmers. Most lights came on at between 65-85% which gave us nice warm and inviting light.

The downside is the system was very expensive and I decided to save $10 per dimmer and go with a non-neutral version. Big mistake. Most LED's don't play well with my dimmers, or actually my dimmers don't play well with most LED's. Since they have no neutral, they leak current to power the electronics. Not an issue with incandescent or halogen as they have the resistance to absorbe this leaked current. Most LED's do not. So the dimmer's LED blinks. Not wanting to ruin expensive dimmers, I just don't use LED's much. I have bought a few neutral version off ebay to use in places where the lights stay on like the mud room. And I put them in my daughter's room because 1) she can't remember to turn her lights off and 2) her room is on the side of the house with the most heat load and gets warm in the summer. No need to have 6x65w lights adding to it.

Still don't really like the look, even with the 2700K ones. But I have put the Cree's all over my mom's house since she lives alone and likes to keep the lights on 24/7. She likes the 5000K ones because they are bright and she can see better.


----------



## SayWhat?

Haven't seen any sticky or tacky stuff on mine.



> Almost every switch in my house is a dimmer. I was saving energy before this whole light bulb thing became a thing


I could never figure out if dimmers actually saved wattage (reduced the flow like adjusting a water faucet) or just shunted it away from the bulb and burned it off internally.


----------



## Herdfan

SayWhat? said:


> I could never figure out if dimmers actually saved wattage (reduced the flow like adjusting a water faucet) or just shunted it away from the bulb and burned it off internally.


Depends on the type of dimmer. The old rheostat dimmers were simply resistors that lowered voltage and the side effect of that was they generated heat. Lots of it. You can still see them in older facilities with the huge cooling fins. These dimmers saved very little, if any, energy.

Modern dimmers use clipping wave technology and act like a switch that turns the power on and off twice per cycle. The point in the waveform in which they power is cut off determines the brightness of the light.

Traditional triac dimmers are leading edge dimmers. They shut off the power at the zero crossing for a preset amount of time, then turn it back on. This produces an inrush of current which is fine with incandescent or magnetic transformers, but LED's and other electronics do not like this type.

An electronic dimmer is a trailing edge dimmer in that it shuts the power off after the wave peak and before the zero cross. As a result there is no inrush current and LED's tend to play better with this type of dimmer.

Both types of clipping wave dimmers save energy because they are actually passing through less power.


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> Almost every switch in my house is a dimmer. I was saving energy before this whole light bulb thing became a thing.
> 
> Back when my house was built in the early 90's, recessed lights were the big thing. So the electricians put them everywhere because they got paid by the fixture. I mean if a room could take 4, they put in 6 because it is not any more wire and they made more money. So there are just too many in the house and the light was overpowering, even with lower wattage bulbs. So when I installed a lighting control system, I installed dimmers. Most lights came on at between 65-85% which gave us nice warm and inviting light.
> 
> The downside is the system was very expensive and I decided to save $10 per dimmer and go with a non-neutral version. Big mistake. Most LED's don't play well with my dimmers, or actually my dimmers don't play well with most LED's. Since they have no neutral, they leak current to power the electronics. Not an issue with incandescent or halogen as they have the resistance to absorbe this leaked current. Most LED's do not. So the dimmer's LED blinks. Not wanting to ruin expensive dimmers, I just don't use LED's much. I have bought a few neutral version off ebay to use in places where the lights stay on like the mud room. And I put them in my daughter's room because 1) she can't remember to turn her lights off and 2) her room is on the side of the house with the most heat load and gets warm in the summer. No need to have 6x65w lights adding to it.
> 
> Still don't really like the look, even with the 2700K ones. But I have put the Cree's all over my mom's house since she lives alone and likes to keep the lights on 24/7. She likes the 5000K ones because they are bright and she can see better.


We had so many dimmer problems when they first came out that I gave up on them. I'm not a big fan of recessed lighting either.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> Haven't seen any sticky or tacky stuff on mine.
> 
> I could never figure out if dimmers actually saved wattage (reduced the flow like adjusting a water faucet) or just shunted it away from the bulb and burned it off internally.


I just checked a Philips bulb above my head and it's not sticky, might be just the Crees.

Depends on which kind of dimmer you had/have. I don't recall any dimmers we had getting hot, but that was a long time ago when the bulbs squealed when they were dimmed. I couldn't stand the squealing and got rid of them quickly.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Something else interesting happened to me when I had the garage door opener installed. After the installer told me not to use Crees, I went into my utility room and got the 100W Feit that hummed and put that in the opener. When I went to unscrew the Feit, it lit up for just a brief time, I'd guess that was caused by static electricity. Really surprised me when it happened.

Rich


----------



## fleckrj

Herdfan said:


> Still don't really like the look, even with the 2700K ones. But I have put the Cree's all over my mom's house since she lives alone and likes to keep the lights on 24/7. She likes the 5000K ones because they are bright and she can see better.


Maybe it is an age thing, but I do not understand the fascination so many people have with the yellow light from incandescent bulbs. I think the 2700K LED, while not as yellow as incandescent bulbs, are still too yellow. I much prefer the white light from the 5000K bulbs. Before I had cataract surgery, I thought it was the cataracts that made me dislike the yellow hue of incandescent and 2700K LED bulbs so much, but I had the cataracts removed nearly a year ago, and I still prefer the 5000K. The same was true for street lights. When the old mercury vapor lights were replaced with more cost efficient sodium vapor lights, the yellow hue of the sodium light drove me nuts. Recently, my town started replacing the sodium vapor lights with LED lights, and I find the white light from the LED much more pleasant. I never liked the color of any of the CFL bulbs, either. I do not think anything beats the 5000K LED.

I hope Cree will come out with a 5000K 3-way bulb soon. The 3-ways are the only 2700K bulbs I still have in use. I find them slightly better than the incandescent bulbs they replaced, but they are too yellow.


----------



## inkahauts

Did that humming Feit do that everywhere or just that one fixture. I think Some fixtures (and what they may be plugged into) may be part of the issue used in conjunction with certain bulbs.

Kind of like how dinners can cause all sorts of issues as well.


----------



## Herdfan

fleckrj said:


> Maybe it is an age thing, but I do not understand the fascination so many people have with the yellow light from incandescent bulbs. I think the 2700K LED, while not as yellow as incandescent bulbs, are still too yellow.


I don't mind going up to about 3000K, which is the color of a true halogen. But the 5000K reminds me of an office. But my daughter (15) and my mom (86) both love them, so it is not an age thing.

Going a bit OT, what type of implants did you get when you had cataract surgery?


----------



## fleckrj

Herdfan said:


> I don't mind going up to about 3000K, which is the color of a true halogen. But the 5000K reminds me of an office. But my daughter (15) and my mom (86) both love them, so it is not an age thing.
> 
> Going a bit OT, what type of implants did you get when you had cataract surgery?


AcrySof IQ toric by Alcon.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> Did that humming Feit do that everywhere or just that one fixture. I think Some fixtures (and what they may be plugged into) may be part of the issue used in conjunction with certain bulbs.
> 
> Kind of like how dinners can cause all sorts of issues as well.


Can't really tell in the garage, but it was humming in the utility room. The Cree in the original lamp isn't humming. Hummmmmmmm.

Rich


----------



## satcrazy

armophob said:


> Before the LED change out, I had a couple CFL's "Flame" out. They sounded like one of those firework cones you put in the driveway. No real flame but scary just the same.
> 
> And no to the smoke smell yet. I did get it off the wall and have it in a spare bedroom on a rack.
> So I don't smell it in the master bedroom anymore.
> Next couple days off, I will take it apart and start on it.


Well, that sounds just as bad.

I don't have any cfl's burning unless I'm present.

I think the mnfc's should have put a warning on the boxes.


----------



## satcrazy

Rich said:


> Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Feits. With my luck, I got the only hummer in the world.
> 
> Fluorescents have made me nervous for years. Didn't start with the CFLs, started with old fixtures with starters in them and ballasts without thermal protection that contained carcinogens. PCBs, I think it was.
> 
> Thing about fluorescents is that they've never stopped testing them on an unsuspecting public.
> 
> Now, I'm beginning to wonder about the LEDs.
> 
> Rich


Could it be particular usages? lamps vs. something else? Don't led's react with other devices close by? I thought I read that somewhere.

Didn't know that about fluorescents.
cripes, are incandescent's the safest alternative?


----------



## satcrazy

Herdfan said:


> Almost every switch in my house is a dimmer. I was saving energy before this whole light bulb thing became a thing.
> 
> Back when my house was built in the early 90's, recessed lights were the big thing. So the electricians put them everywhere because they got paid by the fixture. I mean if a room could take 4, they put in 6 because it is not any more wire and they made more money. So there are just too many in the house and the light was overpowering, even with lower wattage bulbs. So when I installed a lighting control system, I installed dimmers. Most lights came on at between 65-85% which gave us nice warm and inviting light.
> 
> The downside is the system was very expensive and I decided to save $10 per dimmer and go with a non-neutral version. Big mistake. Most LED's don't play well with my dimmers, or actually my dimmers don't play well with most LED's. Since they have no neutral, they leak current to power the electronics. Not an issue with incandescent or halogen as they have the resistance to absorbe this leaked current. Most LED's do not. So the dimmer's LED blinks. Not wanting to ruin expensive dimmers, I just don't use LED's much. I have bought a few neutral version off ebay to use in places where the lights stay on like the mud room. And I put them in my daughter's room because 1) she can't remember to turn her lights off and 2) her room is on the side of the house with the most heat load and gets warm in the summer. No need to have 6x65w lights adding to it.
> 
> Still don't really like the look, even with the 2700K ones. But I have put the Cree's all over my mom's house since she lives alone and likes to keep the lights on 24/7. She likes the 5000K ones because they are bright and she can see better.


Just realized led's don't play well with photo cell fixtures as well.

I put in a led night lite bulb in a photo cell night lite and on a cloudy day I feel like I'm re- living the 70's, minus the disco ball.


----------



## SayWhat?

Like the dimmers, that's the photocell. Some work, others don't. Same with electronic timers with remotes; some do, some don't. I've got a few that work fine with incandescents, but the LED will glow partially when the timer is clicked off.



I've got a mixture of color temperatures. I find they all have their uses. 2700-3000 in the house, 5000-6500 in the utility areas, garage or outside.


----------



## satcrazy

SayWhat? said:


> Like the dimmers, that's the photocell. Some work, others don't. Same with electronic timers with remotes; some do, some don't. I've got a few that work fine with incandescents, but the LED will glow partially when the timer is clicked off.
> 
> I've got a mixture of color temperatures. I find they all have their uses. 2700-3000 in the house, 5000-6500 in the utility areas, garage or outside.


OK, but this is happening on two different photo cell brand night lites. the led's just seem to be more sensitive in these fixtures.

The 75 watt led I put on a timer appears to shut off completely.

By the looks of this thread, led results are all over the place.

Question now is, are there any inherent dangers with the led's like there is with cfl's? [ and, apparently fluorescents]


----------



## inkahauts

This all depends on if the timers and such are connected directly with hot and neutral or if they are pulling power by letting small amounts of power flow even when off. If the latter you really shouldn't use any cfls and probably not LEDs either.


----------



## Rich

satcrazy said:


> Could it be particular usages? lamps vs. something else? Don't led's react with other devices close by? I thought I read that somewhere.
> 
> Didn't know that about fluorescents.
> cripes, _*are incandescent's the safest alternative?*_


In my experience, yes. But the cost effectiveness is what has caused us to pursue other means of lighting. Most incandescents are only rated at about 750 hours of usage and don't put out as many lumens as other types of lighting. So, we progress onward, searching for the ideal light bulb. I'm not sure we've seen that one yet.

Yes, other devices react with LEDs adversely, my garage door opener is a perfect example of that. If devices adversely affect LEDs...well, I don't recall reading anything about that and I've seen nothing to make me think that happens, but it probably does. Unfortunately, like the low pressure sodium lights that caused so many fires during their short run, we are the testers.

The incandescents are so simple compared to all the other types of lighting. So, we trade off simplicity and safety for not thoroughly tested technologies and there really is no other way to test them but to put them out there and see what happens. As I said in an earlier post, fluorescents are still kinda in a testing stage after all these years.

Rich


----------



## Rich

satcrazy said:


> OK, but this is happening on two different photo cell brand night lites. the led's just seem to be more sensitive in these fixtures.
> 
> The 75 watt led I put on a timer appears to shut off completely.
> 
> By the looks of this thread, led results are all over the place.
> 
> _*Question now is, are there any inherent dangers with the led's like there is with cfl's?*_ [ and, apparently fluorescents]


We'll need time to reach a conclusion on that, I think. I know the bulb on the LEDs are cool to the touch, but the bases are really hot. That kinda bothers me. The CFLs are a bit on the dangerous side, I've had a couple of them burn themselves out. Looked pretty bad when I took them out. At the time I wondered if they had any thermal protection, sure didn't look like they had any. Wasn't until the '70s (I think that's the time frame, someone will probably do a search and dispute that) that we began replacing the old ballasts in flourescents with thermally protected ballasts. The old ballasts had no thermal protection and were filled with PCBs. When they overheated and started melting the only thing that told us what was happening was the smell. Now I wonder how toxic that was.

Rich


----------



## bobnielsen

My house was built in 1973 and had a couple of lights in the garage with that type of ballast (plus starters). I replaced them with modern fixtures a few years ago.


----------



## Rich

bobnielsen said:


> My house was built in 1973 and had a couple of lights in the garage with that type of ballast (plus starters). I replaced them with modern fixtures a few years ago.


Dangerous in a home, they are. For anybody that has them, make sure you quickly replace tubes with blackened ends. That coloration means the tube is shot and if left alone it will cause the ballast to overheat. Matter of fact, that applies to all fluorescent tubes. When you see the ends blacken, replace them immediately. The new ballasts all have thermal protection (I'm talking about tubes, not CFLs, it doesn't seem as if they have thermal protection and if they do, it doesn't work very well) and the ballast won't work if it overheats, so you don't have to worry about fires as much as we used to. I still don't trust them.

Rich


----------



## satcrazy

inkahauts said:


> This all depends on if the timers and such are connected directly with hot and neutral or if they are pulling power by letting small amounts of power flow even when off. If the latter you really shouldn't use any cfls and probably not LEDs either.


Why?

How do I tell the difference? What I'm using now doesn't seem to affect the lights. [ digital and mechanical plug in types]


----------



## satcrazy

Rich said:


> We'll need time to reach a conclusion on that, I think. I know the bulb on the LEDs are cool to the touch, but the bases are really hot. That kinda bothers me. The CFLs are a bit on the dangerous side, I've had a couple of them burn themselves out. Looked pretty bad when I took them out. At the time I wondered if they had any thermal protection, sure didn't look like they had any. Wasn't until the '70s (I think that's the time frame, someone will probably do a search and dispute that) that we began replacing the old ballasts in flourescents with thermally protected ballasts. The old ballasts had no thermal protection and were filled with PCBs. When they overheated and started melting the only thing that told us what was happening was the smell. Now I wonder how toxic that was.
> 
> Rich


Like I posted earlier, my experience with cfl's burning out was rather scary. Why should a burned out cfl off gas so badly? I thought I had an electrical fire when I woke up. I'll never leave one on if I'm not awake or in proximity.

I have a couple of flourescents, are all new ballasts thermal? now you got me thinking.


----------



## SayWhat?

I've had a 13w CFL in the range hood for several years ... 3? 4? Maybe more. It stays on all the time as a nightlight -- 24 hours, 365 days. Never a problem.

For those that have had LEDs in use for a period of time; have you noticed any change? I have a string of white LED holiday type lights in the garage used as a nightlight out there. It has also been lit steadily for over two years now. I also have a cheapo USB plug in 'notebook' light over the laptop keyboard that stays lit quite a bit. Both of those have a few individual LEDs that have changed color. Then there are the LED plug in nightlights with photocells that resemble the old 4W incandescent style. They have changed color and dimmed.

Yeah, these are not the same 'quality' as the room or lamp style replacement bulbs/fixtures, but it makes me wonder if those will degrade over time as well.


----------



## bobnielsen

I replaced the incandescent bulb in a nightlight in 
which the photocell is shaded so the light doesn't hit it. After several years it doesn't appear to have degraded at all.


----------



## satcrazy

bobnielsen said:


> I replaced the incandescent bulb in a nightlight in
> which the photocell is shaded so the light doesn't hit it. After several years it doesn't appear to have degraded at all.


Haven't come across a night light with a shaded cell, but that doesn't mean I can't tape it. That would, however, defeat the purpose of "off" and "on".


----------



## Rich

satcrazy said:


> Why?
> 
> How do I tell the difference? What I'm using now doesn't seem to affect the lights. [ digital and mechanical plug in types]


You probably have both hot and neutral wires in your boxes, so whoever installed them did the right thing and put in dimmers that use a neutral wire. Naturally, with my luck, I have a couple boxes without neutrals and I'm not about to go to all the trouble of getting a neutral wire in those boxes. Aggravates me the way my house is wired. And ripping up walls or ceilings is the only way to get the neutral wires in the boxes.

Rich


----------



## Rich

satcrazy said:


> Like I posted earlier, my experience with cfl's burning out was rather scary. Why should a burned out cfl off gas so badly? I thought I had an electrical fire when I woke up. I'll never leave one on if I'm not awake or in proximity.
> 
> I have a couple of flourescents, are all new ballasts thermal? now you got me thinking.


I've had a couple of CFLs burn out too and I think, judging from the damage to the bulb, they don't have thermal protection. Simply put, the light should have just not worked, rather than destroying itself.

Depends on the age of the fixtures in your house. As I said in an earlier post, I think the changeover to protected ballasts started in the middle '70s. If you have a fixture with starters in it, I'd change that. IIRC, fluorescents are/were rated at about a year as opposed to the incandescent's rating of 750 hours of continuous use. So, if you had a dark, gloomy warehouse with only incandescent lighting, you'd be changing bulbs about every month if they were left on continuously. With fluorescents, you'd only have to change them once a year. Manpower and parts saved. Adds up to a lot of money.

Rich


----------



## bobnielsen

The building I worked in from 1966 to 1984 had fluorescents which were on 24/7 (no switches in the rooms). During one of the energy crunches it all had to be rewired so they could be turned off at night.


----------



## SayWhat?

I can remember flicking a standard wall toggle switch and hearing a loud "THUMP" as the contactor mounted somewhere else actuated to turn the overheads on or off.


----------



## Rich

bobnielsen said:


> The building I worked in from 1966 to 1984 had fluorescents which were on 24/7 (no switches in the rooms). During one of the energy crunches it all had to be rewired so they could be turned off at night.


Pretty common thing to do. There's a school of thought that says the tubes will last longer if left on. Never quite got that, all that happens when you turn them off is...nothing. It's when you turn them on that the inrush current is thought to lessen their lives. I've never seen anything to support that school of thought, but I've never seen anything that would cause me to argue against it either.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> Pretty common thing to do. There's a school of thought that says the tubes will last longer if left on. Never quite got that, all that happens when you turn them off is...nothing. It's when you turn them on that the inrush current is thought to lessen their lives. I've never seen anything to support that school of thought, but I've never seen anything that would cause me to argue against it either.
> 
> Rich


It's easy . . . when do incandescents fail? When you turn them on. The filament can't take the inrush. Fluorescents have filaments in both ends.

Tubes were the same. In fact, semiconductors have small gold leads from the pins to the chip that undergo severe contortions when power is applied. I've seen some film - probably on uTube now.

Our data center machines (24x7, 65 degrees) had much less failures than workstations that were turned off nightly (against our advice).


----------



## satcrazy

Interesting, I was told this very thing by a computer friend about a PC.

So do you leave your computer on or shut it down? [ without involving "hibernate"]

Oh yeah, he recently told me leaving your printer on uses less ink. What are your thoughts on that?

I installed another led 40W utilitech [ fiet] today to replace a cfl 40w equivalent. [ on a digital timer] What a improvement. I guess I can go to bed without worrying now.


----------



## Laxguy

For those printers that run a flush cycle when they're booted up, yes, it uses more ink. But if you're not using it till next week, it may be more economical to power down. But laser printers among others, don't need that purging.


----------



## SayWhat?

I don't believe IJ printers use much power in standy. My HP6500 goes to sleep in a low power state. I'm pretty sure it uses less power than a laser when printing too since there is no heat fusing involved.


----------



## dennisj00

satcrazy said:


> Interesting, I was told this very thing by a computer friend about a PC.
> 
> So do you leave your computer on or shut it down? [ without involving "hibernate"]
> 
> Oh yeah, he recently told me leaving your printer on uses less ink. What are your thoughts on that?
> 
> I installed another led 40W utilitech [ fiet] today to replace a cfl 40w equivalent. [ on a digital timer] What a improvement. I guess I can go to bed without worrying now.


I leave all machines on 24x7. I have screens set to go off after and hour or so of non-use but I'm not sure that's good on the fluorescent backlights.

Don't have (or want) any inkjets. Lasers go to sleep - at least recent ones.


----------



## satcrazy

It appears my Epson IJ sleeps as well.

For the amount of use, laser wouldn't be cost effective.

So does your pc "hibernate"?


----------



## dennisj00

Nope.


----------



## SayWhat?

satcrazy said:


> So does your pc "hibernate"?


I turned the desktop off just after the TV a couple of months ago.

Switched to a laptop that goes into a low power state after about 30 minutes. Uses less than half the power.


----------



## Rich

satcrazy said:


> OK, but this is happening on two different photo cell brand night lites. the led's just seem to be more sensitive in these fixtures.
> 
> The 75 watt led I put on a timer appears to shut off completely.
> 
> By the looks of this thread, led results are all over the place.
> 
> Question now is, are there any inherent dangers with the led's like there is with cfl's? [ and, apparently fluorescents]


Unfortunately, the only way we'll find out how safe or dangerous the LEDs are is using them over long periods of time. Can't really blame the makers, it's not like they can approximate the time as well as car makers can test doors, for instance.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Laxguy said:


> For those printers that run a flush cycle when they're booted up, yes, it uses more ink. But if you're not using it till next week, it may be more economical to power down. But laser printers among others, don't need that purging.


For years I've used Brothers black and white laser printers. I don't need color, and the toner cartridge lasts for years (limited usage, of course). I'm on my second Brothers printer and when that toner cartridge finally runs out of toner, I'm just gonna buy a new Brothers.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> I leave all machines on 24x7. I have screens set to go off after and hour or so of non-use but I'm not sure that's good on the fluorescent backlights.
> 
> Don't have (or want) any inkjets. _* Lasers go to sleep - at least recent ones.*_


I don't have any idea how old my latest Brothers laser printer is, but it does go to sleep. I have a feeling that that printer is gonna outlive me.

Rich


----------



## dmspen

I leave my PC powered, but initiate Sleep mode when away from it. I turn my printer off because it will randomly decide to clean itself at some forsaken hour of the morning. The printer is in my bedroom and has woken s up doing it's cleaning.

I bought 6 more 60 watt LEDs through Amazon's Deal of the Day last week. Cost a little over $4 each. Put them in upstairs landing light, bedroom closet area, and garage.

In the past I often went into the 'Tier 4' cost of electricity with PG&E. Since my replacement of almost every bulb I have not hit Tier 4 once. In fact, I'm only hitting Tier 3 towards the end of the month.

If that keeps up, I'll have paid off my LEDs in a few years! Hmmmm....


----------



## satcrazy

What brand is your [phantom] printer?

I'd like to know for future reference, as I avoid anything I can that is "random", lol.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> I used to work with a guy from Pakistan. He was an EE in Pakistan and worked as an electrician&#39;s helper for us. He constantly broke the neutral and used it for the switch. I had to keep fixing every switch he worked on. One day I finally got fed up and confronted him. He took me to a wall switch he had just installed using the neutral wire for the switch and turned the light on and off. Told me it works and couldn&#39;t get it into his head how dangerous it was to do that. Then he just disappeared. Never saw him again.
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief. Yet not surprising at all because too many people don&#39;t get how electricity works.
> 
> And this is also why I turn off circuit breakers before working on anything. People ask why? I say because I didn&#39;t wire it so who knows how it was wired?!?!?
> 
> Can you imagine his work elsewhere? Good grief.
Click to expand...

I often wonder what ever happened to him.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

dmspen said:


> I leave my PC powered, but initiate Sleep mode when away from it. I turn my printer off because it will randomly decide to clean itself at some forsaken hour of the morning. The printer is in my bedroom and has woken s up doing it's cleaning.
> 
> I bought 6 more 60 watt LEDs through Amazon's Deal of the Day last week. Cost a little over $4 each. Put them in upstairs landing light, bedroom closet area, and garage.
> 
> In the past I often went into the 'Tier 4' cost of electricity with PG&E. Since my replacement of almost every bulb I have not hit Tier 4 once. In fact, I'm only hitting Tier 3 towards the end of the month.
> 
> If that keeps up, I'll have paid off my LEDs in a few years! Hmmmm....


I'll bet it doesn't even take a full year. Wait to see how much it saves you in summer when you run your air conditioner.


----------



## Herdfan

inkahauts said:


> I'll bet it doesn't even take a full year. Wait to see how much it saves you in summer when you run your air conditioner.


Also get rid of any older plasma TV's. I had a 2nd generation 55" plasma in the living room and that thing was basically a 400W space heater. Replaced it with an LCD and that room is not nearly as warm in the summer. Of course on the flip side it takes more to heat the room in the winter, but that is gas and much cheaper.


----------



## SayWhat?

^^ Not to mention you can move the LCD by yourself without calling in the neighborhood and a forklift.

I can't believe the weight difference between my first 27" LCD flat screen with a glass front and my current 30" LCD. About half the weight and about half the depth.


----------



## dmspen

satcrazy said:


> What brand is your [phantom] printer?
> 
> I'd like to know for future reference, as I avoid anything I can that is "random", lol.


It's an HP all-in-one color laser printer. It does some stupid things IMO besides the random middle of the night cleaning. Often, I'll lift the lid to place an item on the scanner, then push the scan button. This launches a self cleaning. I wasn't aware toner was used in scanning!

Overall the printer has been pretty awesome. The color laser output is fantastic. We even have semi-gloss paper for color laser photo printing which turns out pretty good.


----------



## grunes

Wait - I thought LEDs last virtually forever, so people use them places where bulb changing is difficult.

How common are reliability problems with LED bulbs?

If they don't get too hot, and they aren't on a dimmer, can I trust them to last a lifetime?

What about the LEDs that light up modern LCD TVs?


----------



## dennisj00

LEDs can last forever since there's no 'burning' like an incandescent filament that oxidizes to change electrical current to heat and light.

HOWEVER, LEDs and supporting circuitry are venerable to surges, heat and other factors that make all our electronics eventually fail.


----------



## Drucifer

Lava Lamps - Is there a bulb for them yet? Or do Lava Lamps need to get redesign?


----------



## MysteryMan

Drucifer said:


> Lava Lamps - Is there a bulb for them yet? Or do Lava Lamps need to get redesign?


Good question.


----------



## SayWhat?

I'm pretty sure they need the heat.


----------



## Herdfan

Ran into my first LED issue.

We have what I call kick lights or step lights built into the walls going up our stairs. I used to use 25w bulbs in them, but since they burn all night, they didn't last. Neither did they CFL's I tried. So then I tried LED's. The first one just went out after about 3? years (keep in mind they burn approx 12 hours a day). So I went to replace it and got what I though was the same bulbs and brand (the HD store brand fan light bulbs). Put it in and it looks totally different. It is the only bulbs of that type they carried, so it's not like I grabbed a _soft white_ and the others were _daylight_, because that is what it looked like.

So one bulb going out means I just replaced 4. How were these things supposed to save me money?


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> Lava Lamps - Is there a bulb for them yet? Or do Lava Lamps need to get redesign?


They should have been redesigned years ago. Using a light bulb as a heat source was never a good idea. I like the things, but a redesign has been obviously overlooked for years.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> I'm pretty sure they need the heat.


They need the heat and they need a new source for that heat.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> Ran into my first LED issue.
> 
> We have what I call kick lights or step lights built into the walls going up our stairs. I used to use 25w bulbs in them, but since they burn all night, they didn't last. Neither did they CFL's I tried. So then I tried LED's. The first one just went out after about 3? years (keep in mind they burn approx 12 hours a day). So I went to replace it and got what I though was the same bulbs and brand (the HD store brand fan light bulbs). Put it in and it looks totally different. It is the only bulbs of that type they carried, so it's not like I grabbed a _soft white_ and the others were _daylight_, because that is what it looked like.
> 
> So one bulb going out means I just replaced 4. How were these things supposed to save me money?


Evolution sure is fun, isn't it?

Rich


----------



## dpeters11

Philips is releasing a $5 60W equvilent LED bulb, Home Depot will sell two for the price of one for 90 days.

http://www.cnet.com/products/philips-60w-equivalent-led-bulb-9290011350/


----------



## chevyguy559

What do the non-dimmable bulbs do when installed in a fixture with a dimmer? I live in a rental home and would like to put some LED's in fixtures that get a lot of use, but almost the entire home has dimmer switches. Would they not work at all or would they just not turn on until the full amount of power reaches them? Don't know if I need to spring for the dimmable versions or what. Thanks!


----------



## Rich

dpeters11 said:


> Philips is releasing a $5 60W equvilent LED bulb, Home Depot will sell two for the price of one for 90 days.
> 
> http://www.cnet.com/products/philips-60w-equivalent-led-bulb-9290011350/


Went to the HD yesterday. No deal on the Philips bulbs, no knowledge of any deal, didn't have the bulbs in the store. I had read the link you put in your post but they had no knowledge of it. Wonder why? Is it a regional thing?

Rich


----------



## Rich

chevyguy559 said:


> What do the non-dimmable bulbs do when installed in a fixture with a dimmer? I live in a rental home and would like to put some LED's in fixtures that get a lot of use, but almost the entire home has dimmer switches. Would they not work at all or would they just not turn on until the full amount of power reaches them? Don't know if I need to spring for the dimmable versions or what. Thanks!


Don't have a clue. I guess you'll be finding out. You might end up putting the dimmers on full blast. Please let us know what you find.

Rich


----------



## Tom Robertson

The new Philips will be available starting in May in HD. 

Though in my walk about in HD, I found $3 60W dimmable bulbs already available. 

Peace,
Tom


----------



## Laxguy

Bought a Phillips LED to replace a small over head recessed spot, and after finally getting the old one out and cleaned, I noticed inside the package it said it's not for enclosed areas. The light doesn't go on often or stay on, so I installed it anyway. What are my odds of it being all right?


----------



## Herdfan

chevyguy559 said:


> What do the non-dimmable bulbs do when installed in a fixture with a dimmer? I live in a rental home and would like to put some LED's in fixtures that get a lot of use, but almost the entire home has dimmer switches. Would they not work at all or would they just not turn on until the full amount of power reaches them? Don't know if I need to spring for the dimmable versions or what. Thanks!


It all depends on the type of dimmer. Some chopped wave dimmers do not provide full wave functionality even on the highest setting. This might not be a problem, but it may. Plus not all dimmers are LED compatible, I know most of mine are not. I would go ahead and get the dimmable ones, but save the current bulbs and put them back when you move.


----------



## Herdfan

Laxguy said:


> Bought a Phillips LED to replace a small over head recessed spot, and after finally getting the old one out and cleaned, I noticed inside the package it said it's not for enclosed areas. The light doesn't go on often or stay on, so I installed it anyway. What are my odds of it being all right?


It will be fine, but it might not last quite as long because of heat.


----------



## dennisj00

Laxguy said:


> Bought a Phillips LED to replace a small over head recessed spot, and after finally getting the old one out and cleaned, I noticed inside the package it said it's not for enclosed areas. The light doesn't go on often or stay on, so I installed it anyway. What are my odds of it being all right?


I'd say the lower heat output from the LED bulb shouldn't be a problem.

As for the dimmer questions, there's so many types of dimmers and types of LED circuits or transformers / switchers that I'd try one and watch it carefully.


----------



## Herdfan

I was at the M-I-L's house this weekend and my B-I-L and I went and bought a bunch of LED's for her house. But the ones she really wanted to change were unavailable and that is the bathroom "globe" lights. Has anyone seen these in LED?


----------



## inkahauts

May be better to buy a new fixture. They wil likely be expensive. If check feit electric website see if they make them then search the web for the model number.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Herdfan said:


> I was at the M-I-L's house this weekend and my B-I-L and I went and bought a bunch of LED's for her house. But the ones she really wanted to change were unavailable and that is the bathroom "globe" lights. Has anyone seen these in LED?


The mini-globes with candelabra bases? They are out there and modestly expensive. Amazon has them and I've seen them at Lowes and Home Depot.

Peace,
Tom


----------



## bobnielsen

Herdfan said:


> I was at the M-I-L's house this weekend and my B-I-L and I went and bought a bunch of LED's for her house. But the ones she really wanted to change were unavailable and that is the bathroom "globe" lights. Has anyone seen these in LED?


I replaced some bathroom globe lights with Feit LEDs from Costco. They are a bit different, with plastic on the base half, but still look pretty good in the fixtures.


----------



## Rich

Laxguy said:


> Bought a Phillips LED to replace a small over head recessed spot, and after finally getting the old one out and cleaned, I noticed inside the package it said it's not for enclosed areas. The light doesn't go on often or stay on, so I installed it anyway. What are my odds of it being all right?


I'd follow the instructions. They do have a good reason for printing them. The LED will probably not last as long as it should, probably can't dissipate heat well.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> I'd say the lower heat output from the LED bulb shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> As for the dimmer questions, there's so many types of dimmers and types of LED circuits or transformers / switchers that I'd try one and watch it carefully.


I was kinda surprised at how hot the bases of some of the LEDs are. The bulbs are cool to the touch, but when you unscrew them and happen to grab the base...it's hot. Especially the Philips LEDs.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> I was at the M-I-L's house this weekend and my B-I-L and I went and bought a bunch of LED's for her house. But the ones she really wanted to change were unavailable and that is the bathroom "globe" lights. Has anyone seen these in LED?


Pretty sure I've seen them in Costco and HD here. I have to go to our Costco tomorrow, I'll look there.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> I was at the M-I-L's house this weekend and my B-I-L and I went and bought a bunch of LED's for her house. But the ones she really wanted to change were unavailable and that is the bathroom "globe" lights. Has anyone seen these in LED?


Is that a median base or a candelabra base you're looking for?

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Rich said:


> I was kinda surprised at how hot the bases of some of the LEDs are. The bulbs are cool to the touch, but when you unscrew them and happen to grab the base...it's hot. Especially the Philips LEDs.
> 
> Rich


Watts are watts . . . and most of the wattage of the incandescents goes up in heat and IR energy (heat where it hits). Only about 5% is converted to light! So a 65 watt flood in a recessed fixture is currently dissipating more heat than the 13 or so LED equivalent.

The LED Bulb is designed to move the heat AWAY from the LED junctions. . . they're using the base as a heat sink to enhance the life of the LEDs.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Watts are watts . . . and most of the wattage of the incandescents goes up in heat and IR energy (heat where it hits). Only about 5% is converted to light! So a 65 watt flood in a recessed fixture is currently dissipating more heat than the 13 or so LED equivalent.
> 
> The LED Bulb is designed to move the heat AWAY from the LED junctions. . . they're using the base as a heat sink to enhance the life of the LEDs.


Got it. I really have to get around to learning more about them. So much easier to ask a question. Thanx.

Rich


----------



## Herdfan

Rich said:


> Is that a median base or a candelabra base you're looking for?
> 
> Rich


Median. Bob mentioned they had them at Costco. But since we don't have one here, we will have to wait until we go to Columbus in May. Yes, we have a membership, but no store. :eek2:

On a side note, we are going to Columbus then to see a the comedian Brad Williams. He is a little person and one funny dude.


----------



## bobnielsen

I forgot to mention that the bulbs I got at Costco were frosted.


----------



## Laxguy

Vanilla frosting? Chocolate? Butter creme? Sugar glaze?



(Nothing to read in here, just being silly). Hoping someone will crack a grin.


----------



## Rich

Herdfan said:


> Median. Bob mentioned they had them at Costco. But since we don't have one here, we will have to wait until we go to Columbus in May. Yes, we have a membership, but no store. :eek2:
> 
> On a side note, we are going to Columbus then to see a the comedian Brad Williams. He is a little person and one funny dude.


Saw the median based ones at our Costco today. 3 for about $20. Not a bad price.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Laxguy said:


> Vanilla frosting? Chocolate? Butter creme? Sugar glaze?
> 
> 
> 
> (Nothing to read in here, just being silly). Hoping someone will crack a grin.


They're vanilla.

Rich


----------



## SayWhat?

I'm at a point where I don't have too many more incies or halogens to replace. Ceiling fans and a couple of track lights that aren't on enough to make replacing them worthwhile. They may get a few hours use a year. And they're all on specialty dimmers or remote control switches that may not work with the cheaper LEDs. For the price of the specialty LEDs I would need, it would take too long for payback.

All of the commonly used lamps and fixtures both inside and out are either LED or CFL now.


----------



## bobnielsen

I have one ceiling fan with a dimmer. I found some small LED lights at Lowe's on sale for around $6 each which have worked great in this application.


----------



## Tom Robertson

My general feeling is with prices dropping so fast, it doesn't make sense to buy bulbs ahead of need. I keep a few of our most common bulbs here, then as I need to replace, I buy the current pricing.

Peace,
Tom


----------



## Drucifer

This A19 60W is like Ford saying you can have any color as long as it is black.


----------



## SayWhat?

About the time these are in widespread use, the new Graphene units may be introduced.

A silly millimeter thicker. Well, actually, only an atom thick:



> "Imagine how thin a light 'bulb' could be? Well, it could be just one atom thick!
> 
> Using graphene - an atomically thin and perfectly crystalline form of carbon - as a filament, scientists have demonstrated for the first time an on-chip visible light source.
> 
> They attached small strips of graphene to metal electrodes, suspended the strips above the substrate, and passed current through the filaments to cause them to heat up.
> 
> The visible light from atomically thin graphene is so intense that it is visible even to the naked eye, without any additional magnification, said researchers.
> 
> "We have created what is essentially the world's thinnest light bulb," said a study co-author professor James Hone from Columbia University."


http://www.ibnlive.com/news/tech/worlds-thinnest-graphene-light-bulb-developed-1007405.html


----------



## SayWhat?

Noticed something odd today.

I'm cobbling together an outdoor decorative feature that will resemble a lighthouse. I plan on using some sort of jelly or sauce jar as the top with the light source contained inside and sealed from the weather. I haven't decided yet whether to use a 12V lamp or a 110V lamp. I've seen some interesting shapes in the smaller 110V LED nightlight/chandelier type units that use around 3 watts. Reading the packaging however, I see the caution 'Not for use in enclosed fixtures'.

Huh?

I know there's been some discussion here about heat, but I can't see that there would be 'too much' heat from a 3w unit.


----------



## Rich

Might kill the LED before its time, can't see what else could happen.

Rich


----------



## Cholly

You might want to consider a type S6 incandescent candelabra base indicator bulb -- 6 watts, 120 volts. 30 lumen output, such as by Satco. If you do a Google search on S6 indicator lamp, you'll find vendors

As to LED's, you can find led night light bulbs that are brighter than the above, but I don't know if they are suitable for an enclosed area. Of course, there are also 110/120 volt Christmas tree bulbs, both incandescent and LED. GE used to make fluorescent Christmas bulbs, but I haven't seen them in man years.


----------



## Herdfan

SayWhat? said:


> Noticed something odd today.
> 
> I'm cobbling together an outdoor decorative feature that will resemble a lighthouse. I plan on using some sort of jelly or sauce jar as the top with the light source contained inside and sealed from the weather. I haven't decided yet whether to use a 12V lamp or a 110V lamp. I've seen some interesting shapes in the smaller 110V LED nightlight/chandelier type units that use around 3 watts. Reading the packaging however, I see the caution 'Not for use in enclosed fixtures'.
> 
> Huh?
> 
> I know there's been some discussion here about heat, but I can't see that there would be 'too much' heat from a 3w unit.


Go 12V and use a Dauer bi-pin LED. They are available in 2,3,4 & 5 watt depending on the brightness you want and are suitable for enclosed fixtures. You can get bi-pin sockets online.


----------



## jimmie57

I know this thread is old but Cree has come out with a much longer lasting LED bulb. They are saying it could last 3 decades.
http://www.techspot.com/news/62108-cree-launches-new-led-light-bulb-lasts-nearly.html


----------



## Rich

jimmie57 said:


> I know this thread is old but Cree has come out with a much longer lasting LED bulb. They are saying it could last 3 decades.
> http://www.techspot.com/news/62108-cree-launches-new-led-light-bulb-lasts-nearly.html


I just bought a Cree 100W at HD. $27. Thought the prices would have gone down by now.

Rich


----------



## Drucifer

Are there led appliance bulbs? 

As all my bulbs in my 30+ year old Amanda refrigerator are now burned out.


----------



## SayWhat?

^^ Yes, but maybe not at local stores. Amazon has some from various sellers. They may not be called 'appliance bulbs' though.



What I need is some PAR20s, under 5 watts (1W would be good) and under $5 each. That's a combination I haven't been able to find yet.


----------



## armophob

Drucifer said:


> Are there led appliance bulbs?
> 
> As all my bulbs in my 30+ year old Amanda refrigerator are now burned out.


I bought 2 dozen of chandelier LED bulbs to use under a dust cover. My thought was to keep the plastic cover safe, use a bulb that does not put out heat.
But the base of these LED bulbs get very hot.

I would want to feel the heat of an LED appliance bulb before I installed one.
The fridge is build to handle the heat of the bulb. But is the plastic below ready for the heat of the base?


----------



## Drucifer

armophob said:


> I bought 2 dozen of chandelier LED bulbs to use under a dust cover. My thought was to keep the plastic cover safe, use a bulb that does not put out heat.
> But the base of these LED bulbs get very hot.
> 
> I would want to feel the heat of an LED appliance bulb before I installed one.
> The fridge is build to handle the heat of the bulb. But is the plastic below ready for the heat of the base?


OK then, with a 30 year old fringe, I'll play it safe with old tech.


----------



## Rich

Drucifer said:


> OK then, with a 30 year old fringe, I'll play it safe with old tech.


Yup, I agree with that. We just bought a new stove and it has incandescents in it.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

Drucifer said:


> OK then, with a 30 year old fringe, I'll play it safe with old tech.


I've been looking everywhere for a 40 watt appliance replacement. . . long cylinder glass, mid size socket. Got one from China with a base adapter - total about $5 shipped, but it was too dim to use. Just had to buy another incandescent, they go out too frequently from switching.

As a side, you'd probably save money replacing the 30 year old refrig but it'll take a few years.


----------



## Drucifer

dennisj00 said:


> I've been looking everywhere for a 40 watt appliance replacement. . . long cylinder glass, mid size socket. Got one from China with a base adapter - total about $5 shipped, but it was too dim to use. Just had to buy another incandescent, they go out too frequently from switching.
> 
> As a side, you'd probably save money replacing the 30 year old refrig but it'll take a few years.


I don't trust anything from China near my food stuff.


----------



## Tom Robertson

While I understand the concern for point temperature of a base, the LED isn't going to be significantly hotter at the base than an incandescent running at 40W--if at all. Plus, you'd have to leave the door open for a long time to overcome the initial cold in the fridge.

As for new appliances, I suspect manufacturers don't use LED until they are forced or cheaper than incandescent bulbs. Or in higher end units where they can sell the "feature."

Peace,
Tom


----------



## dennisj00

Drucifer said:


> I don't trust anything from China near my food stuff.


I don't think a lamp / base in the bottom of a microwave (not inside) is anywhere near any food.

There's a lot more to worry about your food.


----------



## Cholly

Drucifer said:


> Are there led appliance bulbs?
> 
> As all my bulbs in my 30+ year old Amanda refrigerator are now burned out.


I'll wager that you'd be able to recoup the cost of a new Energy Star fridge on energy savings ove its lifetime. Time to let the Amana go. :sure:


----------



## Drucifer

Cholly said:


> I'll wager that you'd be able to recoup the cost of a new Energy Star fridge on energy savings ove its lifetime. Time to let the Amana go. :sure:


I will be moving shortly. As I'm downsizing to a something I can better handle. All I want it to do, is last a few more months. But I never knew how important the fridge bulbs are until they all go out.


----------



## SayWhat?

Drucifer said:


> But I never knew how important the fridge bulbs are until they all go out.


I have flashlights (yes, LED) scattered all over the house 'just in case'. I get the free ones from Harbor Freight when I can, but I've also bought a few multi-packs. Also keep a supply of AAAs on hand.

You'd be surprised how often they come in handy.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> I don't think a lamp / base in the bottom of a microwave (not inside) is anywhere near any food.
> 
> There's a lot more to worry about your food.


I'm still looking for one. Haven't forgotten. I have tried a couple of the kind you just posted about, but, just as you said, they were too dim.

Rich


----------



## Rich

SayWhat? said:


> I have flashlights (yes, LED) scattered all over the house 'just in case'. I get the free ones from Harbor Freight when I can, but I've also bought a few multi-packs. Also keep a supply of AAAs on hand.
> 
> You'd be surprised how often they come in handy.


I've got a bunch of those little flashlights around my house, too. I also have a few LED headlamps scattered here and there. They're really handy for reading in darkened rooms.

Rich


----------



## Cholly

I, too, have a bunch of the Harbor Freight flashlights. Every now and then, one will die, usually due to a fall. As to batteries, I keep a supply of Kirkland AAA's from Costco on hand. They seem to be the best compromise between price and life expectancy. I've yet to try the new Energizer Lithium AAA's. If they're anything like the Energizer AA's, they are probably worth the high price.


----------



## dennisj00

A year or so ago, I bought a bulk box (50 in a white box) of AA Duracells from Amazon and for the first time ever many leaked. I almost think they were counterfeits.

Now I stick to the drug store Sunday specials.


----------



## Rich

Cholly said:


> I, too, have a bunch of the Harbor Freight flashlights. Every now and then, one will die, usually due to a fall. As to batteries, I keep a supply of Kirkland AAA's from Costco on hand. They seem to be the best compromise between price and life expectancy. I've yet to try the new Energizer Lithium AAA's. If they're anything like the Energizer AA's, they are probably worth the high price.


Talking about high priced batteries, I bought 3 LED flashlights on Amazon without reading the details (sometimes being lazy causes me problems) and found that no batteries I had fit them. I had to buy 4 rechargeable batteries and a recharger for them. The batteries cost ~ $11 for 4 and were marked down from $149 for 4. I did this mostly out of curiosity. The batteries are BRC 18650 3000mAh 3.7V li-ion. Only need 1 battery for each flashlight. So far, I haven't had to recharge any of them. And they put out a lot of light. Here's a _*link*_ to the Amazon offering. Now the list price is ~ $68, but it really was $149 the day I bought them. Still the same price for them, tho.

Rich


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## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> A year or so ago, I bought a bulk box (50 in a white box) of AA Duracells from Amazon and for the first time ever many leaked. I almost think they were counterfeits.
> 
> Now I stick to the drug store Sunday specials.


I'm still buying mine at Costco. At least they don't leak.

Rich


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## grunes

Three ideas that people will hate. 

1. Around Maryland, the old incandescents are still on sale - in dollar stores. If California doesn't have them, maybe a nearby state does.

2. They can still be bought on eBay.

3. You can get compact flourescent (CFL) bulbs a lot cheaper than LED bulbs, in most of the same sizes and wattages as incandescents, and are almost as efficient. They are supposed to last almost as long - but like other tube devices, maybe they are more surge and lightning resistant. At least in Maryland, the power company is required to subsidize them, and Costco has great deals (e.g., $0.99 for a pack of 4 bulbs, some weeks), and does recycling for the most common sizes.

Oh, but you say CFL's, like all flourescents, have mercury. Mercury is bad - for us, for the environment, etc. True. But modern flourescents, because of the improved ballasts, contain very little mercury.

If you break a CFL bulb in your house, it probably won't hurt you much, though in theory you want to open a window, and leave while it airs out for 15 minutes or more.

They generally don't flicker noticeably anymore (but, to use a modern bulb, your lamp needs a modern ballast  ), or cause problems with camera exposure, either.

And LED devices, like all solid state electronics, involves much more toxic and environmentally unfriendly materials during their manufacture, though I'm not sure how the relative "badness balance" works out in the end.

As with LED lamps, you may want a CFL that isn't too yellow, so everything looks natural, though I'm not all that picky.


----------



## grunes

(but, to use a modern bulb, your lamp needs a modern ballast  )

Oops. That doesn't apply to CFLs, which have built-in ballasts, so they can screw into in normal lamps. Sorry!


----------



## Cholly

In normal use,LED's should last at least 3 times as long as CFL's. Also, CFL's don't' stand up too well in areas where the lights are turned on & off for a short time period (such as in a bathroom).


----------



## grunes

Cholly said:


> In normal use,LED's should last at least 3 times as long as CFL's.


Data to support claim? The boxes quote almost the same lifetimes.

Future reliability data on new products is hard to verify before the fact.

One of the most interesting things about companies with only a few products is that if they don't perform as advertised, the company just goes bankrupt, and the consumer is left holding the bag.


----------



## Rich

Cholly said:


> In normal use,LED's should last at least 3 times as long as CFL's. Also, CFL's don't' stand up too well in areas where the lights are turned on & off for a short time period (such as in a bathroom).


I've had too many of the CFLs go up in smoke to keep using them. I've never been a big fan of flourescents.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

I agree with Rich. In the first years of CFLs, I've had more failures that the first years of LEDs (no failures). 

I certainly won't be buying any more CFLs and will replace the few that I still have with LEDs when they fail.


----------



## lparsons21

I agree. I'm not replacing the cfl's until they go out, but when they do LEDs are going into their spot.
I've got a few places that I might use something else, like the oven light.


Sent from my App Runtime for Chrome using Tapatalk


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## SayWhat?

I won't be buying CFLs or incandescents, but it's only about operating costs. I haven't had any problems with CFLs at all. A 60W incandescent vs. a 13 W CFL vs a 5W (or less) LED is a no brainer.

But I won't remove a working bulb either in most cases. I have a few 50W halogens in track lights that are rarely used. When they are, I need the concentrated light. Once they fail however and I run out of spares, I'll go LED in those too. By then, prices for PAR20s should have come down even more.


----------



## SayWhat?

"A 60W incandescent vs. a 13 W CFL vs a 5W (or less) LED is a no brainer."

I can have 5 or 6 fixtures (or more) lit now full time lighting up more space overall (more rooms) and use less power per day than I could with one lamp using 60W incandescents.


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## grunes

SayWhat? said:


> A 60W incandescent vs. a 13 W CFL vs a 5W (or less) LED is a no brainer.


It might be slightly more complicated than it looks. If it costs you $6 or $7 more per bulb for the LED over CFL (in Maryland, where both are somewhat subsidized), and you only run it 2 hours / day, and you invest the difference reasonably, you may do slightly better or about the same with the CFL.

Of course, if you pay a professional electrician to replace light bulbs, you want the longest lasting bulb, because labour is the highest cost. I'm not sure there is enough data yet to accurately estimate the probable lifetimes under conditions of typical use of CURRENT generation bulbs. One would think LEDs will last longer, but the comment about vulnerability to voltage surges might change that.

It would also get more complicated if you use solar cells to power most of your home - especially if, as at current, governments effectively subsidize "renewable energy". In some cases, the subsidies reduce the cost of electricity to the point that bulb cost is a larger fraction of total, and CFLs look better - sometimes, possibly, maybe - who can be certain what the future will bring?

Anyway, what has this got to do with AVS?


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## SayWhat?

Lowes >> Utilitech, 2 pack, 5.5W >> 40W, $2.48, web or store. 9W >> 60W is a bit higher, 3.98 I think.


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## Drucifer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/679874161527881728


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## Drucifer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/684585243265781760
Lightbulbs Can Make Us Healthy


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## Cholly

I'm normally up quite late at night, and I've noticed something strange with a ceiling fixture in my bedroom. The fixture has two Cree 60 watt dimmable bright white bulbs, and is controlled by an X10 dimmer switch I'm usually watching TV, with the lights dimmed, until after 12:30.. . At approximately 12:15 a.m. *every day, * the lights flicker for a few seconds. This never happens at any other time. Curious. :eek2:


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## Herdfan

Wonder if there is a power company change-over at that time. Perhaps they are taking a generator offline as demand goes down and that is causing a small power fluctuation. If you are really that curious and it happens close enough to the same time, put a meter in an outlet and watch it.


----------



## Herdfan

And I solved a problem Last spring I got a new truck and programmed my garage door remote into the homelink system. But it would usually only open the door, not close it. On a rare occasion it would close it, but not very often. Then I read an article about LED's causing interference with garage door openers. Just so happens I had replaced the lights in the openers with LED's. If the lights are on, the remote will not work, if the light is off (which is what happened in those rare cases when it would close the door), it worked fine.

So those bulbs are back to incandescents, but they are the rough service ones so hopefully they will last a bit longer.

Anyone else seeing this?


----------



## billsharpe

The last time I was up at 12:15 AM was New Year's Day. Went to bed about 12:20...

Next year we may watch CNN's Time Square coverage at 9 PM -- we're on the Left Coast -- and go to bed earlier.


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## Cholly

Herdfan said:


> Wonder if there is a power company change-over at that time. Perhaps they are taking a generator offline as demand goes down and that is causing a small power fluctuation. If you are really that curious and it happens close enough to the same time, put a meter in an outlet and watch it.


I've wondered about the possibility of a changeover of that nature. Good idea about observing line voltage at that time.However, I think the response of an analog meter might not catch the fluctuation.


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## Rich

Herdfan said:


> And I solved a problem Last spring I got a new truck and programmed my garage door remote into the homelink system. But it would usually only open the door, not close it. On a rare occasion it would close it, but not very often. Then I read an article about LED's causing interference with garage door openers. Just so happens I had replaced the lights in the openers with LED's. If the lights are on, the remote will not work, if the light is off (which is what happened in those rare cases when it would close the door), it worked fine.
> 
> So those bulbs are back to incandescents, but they are the rough service ones so hopefully they will last a bit longer.
> 
> Anyone else seeing this?


Not on mine, but I do remember reading about LEDs affecting the door openers and I never changed the lights in my opener to LEDs. I do have two LED spotlights just behind the door opener mechanism and they don't seem to do anything adverse. On a side note, if my wife parks with the rear end of the Acadia towards the door, she never remembers to close the door, just gets in the truck and goes merrily on her way. And my housekeepers wonder why I have a machete under my bed, close to hand...

Rich


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## Rich

Cholly said:


> I've wondered about the possibility of a changeover of that nature. Good idea about observing line voltage at that time.However, I think the response of an analog meter might not catch the fluctuation.


If you can see it, an analog voltmeter will see it. So will a digital VM.

Rich


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## Cholly

I picked up a 4 pack of Feit 750 lumen output (65 watt equivalent) soft white dimmable BR30 reflector floods at Costco last week for $7.99 ( special price).I don't know how long this price will be available Huge savings!


----------



## bmetelsky

Cholly said:


> I picked up a 4 pack of Feit 750 lumen output (65 watt equivalent) soft white dimmable BR30 reflector floods at Costco last week for $7.99 ( special price).I don't know how long this price will be available Huge savings!


How do they look?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


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## Rich

Cholly said:


> I picked up a 4 pack of Feit 750 lumen output (65 watt equivalent) soft white dimmable BR30 reflector floods at Costco last week for $7.99 ( special price).I don't know how long this price will be available Huge savings!


I've had a lot of problems with the Feit lights. I've been sticking with the Crees, much more dependable.

Rich


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## Cholly

bmetelsky said:


> How do they look?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


Haven't tried them yet We have a 4 unit track light in the kitchen. Currently, itt has two LED 's and 2 CFL's. As the CFL's die, I'll replace them.



Rich said:


> I've had a lot of problems with the Feit lights. I've been sticking with the Crees, much more dependable.
> 
> Rich


We have a mix of Cree, GE, Philips and Feit LED's. So far, no failures on any of them.


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## Rich

Cholly said:


> Haven't tried them yet We have a 4 unit track light in the kitchen. Currently, itt has two LED 's and 2 CFL's. As the CFL's die, I'll replace them.
> 
> We have a mix of Cree, GE, Philips and Feit LED's. _*So far, no failures on any of them*_.


With my luck, nothing surprises me. :nono2:

Rich


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## Cholly

I was in Walmart today, looking to find information on theGE candelabra base spriral CFL bulbs I've been using in my ceiling fan (soft white, 60 watt equivalent). Specifically, I wanted to find the lumen rating so I could shop for LED replacements. A sales associate was stocking LED's, and I looked at the pricing of GE A19 60 watt replacements ( the most common replacement bulb) and was startled to see that the price of a 4 pack was less than $10. Almost all the GE LED's had taken a real price drop, to the point that most of them were far cheaper than Walmart's Great Value line. I asked the guy what the deal was, and he told me that GE has discontinued compact fluorescents due to decreased sales. I asked where the remaining CFL's were and he pointed to an 8 foot bottom shelf. That was it!


----------



## jerry downing

I heard that they discontinued making CFLs due to gripes about mercury although I think that you could light the entire neighborhood with CFLs and use less mercury than what was in one of those old thermostats.


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## Rich

jerry downing said:


> I heard that they discontinued making CFLs due to gripes about mercury although I think that you could light the entire neighborhood with CFLs and use less mercury than what was in one of those old thermostats.


I don't think you really "use" the mercury in the sense that you might run out of it over a period of time. The mercury vaporizes when you hit the juice and then condenses when you deenergize a fluorescent tube or a CFL. Even in an old tube with blackened ends that doesn't work anymore you can still see the BB sized load of mercury.

But, you're right about how much mercury used to be in the old thermostats and a lot of motion switches back in the day.

Rich


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## Herdfan

I remember back in elementary school the teacher had a big bottle of Mercury and we all got to play with it. :eek2:


----------



## dennisj00

Herdfan said:


> I remember back in elementary school the teacher had a big bottle of Mercury and we all got to play with it. :eek2:


And I remember playing with it whenever a thermometer was broken or it was available until my high school chemistry teacher found us and had a conniption (?) fit!!

I also remember washing our hands and siphoning leaded gas.


----------



## Herdfan

Anyone know of an LED that does not cause interference with a garage door opener? I put LED's in the opener's lights and they work great, except when they are on they put out so much interference that the opener in the car won't operate the door.


----------



## dennisj00

Herdfan said:


> Anyone know of an LED that does not cause interference with a garage door opener? I put LED's in the opener's lights and they work great, except when they are on they put out so much interference that the opener in the car won't operate the door.


I'd try a different brand. What are the existing ones?


----------



## Cholly

This is one case where I'd stick with an incandescent - conventional or Halogen. Not on long enough to have a real impact.on electric bill.


----------



## Herdfan

dennisj00 said:


> I'd try a different brand. What are the existing ones?


They are the Cree's from Home Depot.



Cholly said:


> This is one case where I'd stick with an incandescent - conventional or Halogen. Not on long enough to have a real impact.on electric bill.


You are correct about the energy saving part, but incandescents don't last very long there with the vibration. Hence the LED's so I don't have to change them. Maybe I need to get a rough service bulb.


----------



## dennisj00

The garage door opener is the last place that I have CFLs -- for the vibration. With the ones I've removed / replaced with LEDs, I've got a long supply. And they haven't failed there!


----------



## Cholly

Herdfan said:


> They are the Cree's from Home Depot.
> 
> You are correct about the energy saving part, but incandescents don't last very long there with the vibration. Hence the LED's so I don't have to change them. Maybe I need to get a rough service bulb.


Either a rough service bulb or a garage door oener specific bulb, if they are still available. Also, Raco makes 130 volt bulbs, typically used by home builders. They tend to last much longer than conventional incandescents.


----------



## Herdfan

Cholly said:


> . Also, Raco makes 130 volt bulbs, typically used by home builders. They tend to last much longer than conventional incandescents.


Yes, I have used their candelabra bulbs for years in my post and coach lights. They do last much longer.

Edit: Went to my local Lowe's today. They don't carry any rough service bulbs any more. Or none that I could find.

But they had a 2 pack of Utilitech 60W equivalent LED's for $4, so I grabbed them and that solved my problem. Garage door works fine now.


----------



## dennisj00

Herdfan said:


> Yes, I have used their candelabra bulbs for years in my post and coach lights. They do last much longer.
> 
> Edit: Went to my local Lowe's today. They don't carry any rough service bulbs any more. Or none that I could find.
> 
> But they had a 2 pack of Utilitech 60W equivalent LED's for $4, so I grabbed them and that solved my problem. Garage door works fine now.


If I had been betting, I would have bet on the Crees. But powerline interference is a crazy thing.

I put in a new Chamberlain garage door opener a few years ago and two days later realized the Power Line communications between the solar panels on the roof and the gateway (same circuit) to the internet had quit. Ended up moving the gateway.

Edit: It might be worth contacting Cree directly - they would probably want to know the problem.


----------



## Cholly

I had my first LED failure the other day -- a less than 0ne year old. Utilitech G25 bulb on a vanity light bar in my bathroom. I had slowly been replacing G25 CFL's with LED's for greater life span an instant on characteristics. Can't find the receipt, so I hope that Lowes will give me a replacement

Edit: Went back to Lowes yesterday after being unable to locate my receipt. The customer service rep said Lowes doesn't provide warranty on the bulb - I went to the light section and there were no Utilitech G25 bulbs - only Sylvania, so I bought one, noting that it has a 5 year warranty covered by return to stoare with receipt. I bought one, making sure to keep the receipt, plus the package panel containing the warranty info and stapled them together for my file of warranties. I Installed the Sylvania next to existing Utilitech bulb, and of course, even theough they are both soft white, the Sylvania has more of a orange hue than the Utilitech.


----------



## Cholly

Second LED failure yesterday -- this time a Cree 60 watt equivalent daylight dimmable, one of the first LED bulbs that I purchased in 2014. Warranty states you must return the defective bulb to Cree, along with the original sales receipt. Yeah, right! :raspberry


----------



## Rich

Cholly said:


> Second LED failure yesterday -- this time a Cree 60 watt equivalent daylight dimmable, one of the first LED bulbs that I purchased in 2014. Warranty states you must return the defective bulb to Cree, along with the original sales receipt. Yeah, right! :raspberry


I gave up on saving the packages and receipts. I bet the Home Depot would still give you your money back if pressed hard enough. Did you buy the bulb at HD?

Rich


----------



## Cholly

Yes, I bought them at HD. The failed bulb was in a two light ceiling fixture in my bedroom. My solution was to use w Cree soft white bulbs--one from a reading lamp by my recliner, the other an unused one bought at the same time..The good bulb from the ceiling fixture went into the reading lamp.
I'm not going to bother returning the burned out bulb. Hardly worth the effort. However, I probably won't buy any more Cree bulbs.


----------



## Rich

Cholly said:


> Yes, I bought them at HD. The failed bulb was in a two light ceiling fixture in my bedroom. My solution was to use w Cree soft white bulbs--one from a reading lamp by my recliner, the other an unused one bought at the same time..The good bulb from the ceiling fixture went into the reading lamp.
> I'm not going to bother returning the burned out bulb. Hardly worth the effort. However, I probably won't buy any more Cree bulbs.


Mmm. I had a couple problems with the Crees at first, but they've been fine since then. I've picked up a couple packages of what seems to be generic LEDs at HD. They come in packs of 3 or 4 and are cheaper than the name bulbs. I've had no problems with them. Using them makes matching of bulbs simpler.

Rich


----------



## Drucifer

Looks like I'll be moving soon. So I'll have a start over with LED bulbs. I'll also be replacing all switches & outlets with the 'smart' variety.


----------



## elaclair

I moved recently and took the opportunity to go completely non-incandescent. All of the house's A19 and PAR bulbs are now Torchstar 5000k daylights, with a smattering of RGBW's thrown in for good measure. The main lights in the garage are still the old standby 48" fluorescent, so those I'll wait to swap when they fail.

Was following the thread in it's beginning, but have missed about 16 pages worth of postings....I'll try and catch up. 

One thing I wanted to say is that I've been really impressed with Torchstar. Good quality, and excellent customer service.


----------



## billsharpe

Are there three-way LED bulbs? I had two such bulbs burn out at my house. Local drug store only had the same 50-100-150 incandescent bulbs as replacements.


----------



## Cholly

Home Depot carries an assortment of 3 way LED's by Cree, Feit and Philips


----------



## Drucifer

elaclair said:


> I moved recently and took the opportunity to go completely non-incandescent. All of the house's A19 and PAR bulbs are now Torchstar *5000k daylights*, with a smattering of RGBW's thrown in for good measure. The main lights in the garage are still the old standby 48" fluorescent, so those I'll wait to swap when they fail.
> 
> Was following the thread in it's beginning, but have missed about 16 pages worth of postings....I'll try and catch up.
> 
> One thing I wanted to say is that I've been really impressed with Torchstar. Good quality, and excellent customer service.


Was just reading somewhere that LEDs could be too bright for our eyes. They recommended 4000k max for everyday use.


----------



## Herdfan

A couple of years ago I changed out some recessed light bulbs for LED's. My daughter wanted the daylight ones so that is what she got.

Over the weekend one went bad and I went down to the local HD to get a new one. It was a Cree and didn't think I would have any trouble finding a replacement. Wrong.

They no longer carry that particular model and none of the recessed light replacements they did have were daylight, only soft white.

So I will check Lowe's this evening and see what they have in recessed daylight bulbs. 

What a PITA.


----------



## inkahauts

2700 and 3000 are finally the new standard since that is what incandescent ones generally where and what was keeping people from switching to leds. 

I'm surprised you couldn't find any of the 6000 color variety though...


----------



## Dude111

I cant stand those lights.... (The new ones that look swirly) -- The light isnt as good and they just are not as good....

I love and use traditional bulbs and will as long as I can as they are the best


----------



## inkahauts

Dude111 said:


> I cant stand those lights.... (The new ones that look swirly) -- The light isnt as good and they just are not as good....
> 
> I love and use traditional bulbs and will as long as I can as they are the best


We aren't talking about those. Those are almost all gone. We are talking leds. Much better than those. Also a lot better than incandescent. Use about 20% the electricity for the same color temperature and lumens.


----------



## Rich

inkahauts said:


> We aren't talking about those. Those are almost all gone. We are talking leds. Much better than those. Also a lot better than incandescent. Use about 20% the electricity for the same color temperature and lumens.


I've had the same problems that Herdfan posted about. I've started buying LEDs in multi-packs of at least 3 bulbs so that I can replace fan lights without having odd looking bulbs in them. HD has a pretty decent line of those multi-packs.

Rich


----------



## Cholly

I'd like to replace my Sylvania 60 watt equivalent candelabra base CFL's in my ceiling fan (4 bulbs) with LED's once I run out of spares. OsramSylvania is the only source for the CFL's and there's no telling how much longer they'll be available. Also, they're not dimmable. Looking at HD's web site, I see Ecosmart, GE and Philips. The Philips bulbs are the only ones for which the product description specifically states ceiling fans.. I'm tempted to try the Ecosmart bulbs. Anyone using them for ceiling fans?


----------



## inkahauts

Costco in our area is now selling those bulbs from Feit.


----------



## Rich

Cholly said:


> I'd like to replace my Sylvania 60 watt equivalent candelabra base CFL's in my ceiling fan (4 bulbs) with LED's once I run out of spares. OsramSylvania is the only source for the CFL's and there's no telling how much longer they'll be available. Also, they're not dimmable. Looking at HD's web site, I see Ecosmart, GE and Philips. The Philips bulbs are the only ones for which the product description specifically states ceiling fans.. I'm tempted to try the _*Ecosmart *_bulbs. Anyone using them for ceiling fans?


Those Ecosmart bulbs that come in the packs are the brand I've been buying. Yes, I have them in a couple of my fans and have not had any problems.

Rich


----------



## Cholly

Today, I replaced the X10 wall switches in my bedroom (on/off switch for ceiling fan lights and dimmer for ceiling light in sitting area) with Insteon switches -- dimmer for the seating area, on/off for the ceiling fan. I still have cfl's in the ceiling fan fixture, and replaced the dimmable Cree 60 watt equivalent daylight dimmable LED's with 75 watt equivalent dimmable Great Value soft white LED's. Then I put the Cree's in the lamps on my night stands, replacing dimmable CFL's. Great difference. It's certainly more convenient to tell Alexa to turn the bedroom lights on and off than using X10 controls.

Incidentally, LED bulbs continue to drop in price. The two dimmable 75 watt equivalent Great Value bulbs I bought cost around $12.00. A 4 pack of Great Value soft white non-dimmable 60 watt equivalent bulbs costs $5.74. Similar low prices for Utilitech 60 watt equivalent bulbs at Lowe's


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## Drucifer

Well, the last bulb in my old fridge burned out. The new LED freezer bulb are marked daylight and are really bright. $7.44 online at WalMart. I was surprised to find that Home Depot still don't have appliance LED bulbs.


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## inkahauts

Out Costco now has 10 and six packs of different leds. I think the 10 pack of 75 watt ones is about $32.


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