# And I was going to buy a 921 for Xmas.



## Marshall (Aug 27, 2003)

I was ready to buy a 921 last fall, but boy am I glad I coudn't one. 

I am a long time DISH fan. Started with the 3000, made money on the stock, suffered through the dishplayer (loved the interface), hate the 6000, like the 508, but now its time to move on.

The 921 is the last straw. It comes out barely working while the HDTivo comes along almost trouble free and an extra tuner to boot. 

It's time to for me to switch to Directv. Never thought I would. Like Charlie, hate Rupert. But I am tired of waiting. I am going to get myself two regular TIVO's and the new HD Tivo. Uprgrade the hard drives in all three, add the RF remote capability from Weaknees and then sit back and record HDTV.


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## mainedish (Mar 25, 2003)

I don't buy satellite tv because I like the owner of the company. Charlie may be a nice guy but in this case nice guys finish last. I like Rupert because he knows how to run a company. I have one friend who works for Fox and you just wait to see what he has planned for this year. Charlie and Dish Network will continue to fall behind.


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## PSB (Oct 4, 2002)

You are doing the right thing, you dont want to be the last one on a sinking ship! Expert Satellite have some good deals on Tivos right now check them out before you decide...

http://www.expertsatellite.com/catalog/default.php?exp_affil=ref753029


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

PSB said:


> You are doing the right thing, you dont want to be the last one on a sinking ship!


Oh yes, I am sure Echostar will surely go bankrupt due to the tens of tens of people switching to TiVo.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

My 921 arrived about a week ago, and I couldn't be happier. Sure it's not perfect yet, probably a few more wrinkles than I'd like to see at this point in the game, but compared to my old 508, it's lightyears ahead. I was using a Sammy STB to get my local HD and the tuner in the 921 seems better at giving me a more consistent signal. Love the program guide.

It would be very nice to see more HD programming hit the E* airwaves.


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## bdemz (Sep 18, 2002)

JM Anthony said:


> My 921 arrived about a week ago, and I couldn't be happier. Sure it's not perfect yet, probably a few more wrinkles than I'd like to see at this point in the game, but compared to my old 508, it's lightyears ahead. I was using a Sammy STB to get my local HD and the tuner in the 921 seems better at giving me a more consistent signal. Love the program guide.
> 
> It would be very nice to see more HD programming hit the E* airwaves.


I agree with you JM. Mine seems to be working OK. I have had the occasional reboot but nothing major. I am staying with DISH for now until I see what flushes out with D*, VOOM and Cable by years end. Whichever one has the most HD is the one I will stay with or switch too.


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## Marshall (Aug 27, 2003)

First of all Dish is developing these PVRs on several different platforms. Instead of creating 1 user interface on 1 operating system and refinining it, they have several different interfaces with several different operating systems. Ultimately I can't see how that can succeed. 

They must have several development teams all going in different directions.

Also they kind of abandon you. I have the 6000. Don't have the 8psk module, so I no longer get DISH based HD channels. If I want it, I have to pay money to buy the module. So I had CBS HD, DISH made the switch, and they effectively took away my HD unless I shell out more cash. 

I suffered through the dishplayer and the 501. I was ready to try and get the 921 when I went over to the Tivo board to find the biggest problem they had was, where could they buy one and who had it in stock.

You look at the 921 board and it's nothing but 1 bug after another.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

bdemz said:


> I agree with you JM. Mine seems to be working OK. I have had the occasional reboot but nothing major. QUOTE]
> It's comments like this that get me a but angry. Here you folks are, spending $1,000 on a piece of hardware for watching and recording TV. So it hangs and needs a reboot, that's OK. We don't say this is the greatest box or even a works great except for a couple of things but we see a 'seems to be working OK'. Why should E* customers put up with hardware like the 921 and 811? Yes, I know some folks will say that it works fine for them, no problems and no reboots, but there are many more folks saying that they're having problems with E* HD STB's vs. D* HD STB's. E* drops Dishwire and some folks are upset but others say they had no plans to use it so that's OK. What if E* then changed their mind and decided that they couldn't do an EPG for OTA channels, is it still OK with you?
> 
> OK, so what's my point? My point is that E* customers have lowered their expectations on E* products when they shouldn't have to. You see comments that we've come to expect E* hardware to stink when it comes out, but they'll get around to fixing it eventually. For the amount of time E* worked on the 921 it should have come out with the same quality level of the D* HD DirecTivo. Just my two cents.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Hopefully Dish will have learned from this whole release products not finished and wait for the software update to fix them thing, and will not repeat this in the future. I would have hoped that the original dishplayer (7100/7200 ) fiasco would have taught them not to do this anymore. The bad will generated on these web boards and the bad word of mouth from customers and retailers do nothing but hurt Dish's reputation and potential customer sales. The bad products cause Churn which further hurt Dish. The recent shakeup at Dish corporate maybe the turn around needed to prevent any more of these problems. 

I have faith that Dish will eventually get the 921 and the 811 working the way they are supposed to. It may take a full year or more but they will get them to work. I waited over 18 months to get a stable 721 and now two years from my original purchase I have Dish home. Now not all the applications work but I have dish home. The 721 works really well now and I have three of them. I am also on the waiting list for a 921 . Hopefully it will work well when I finally get one. I have a lot of money invested in receivers and dishs ,etc so I hope they will not only survive but get better in the future. 

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes...."


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Marshall said:


> Instead of creating 1 user interface on 1 operating system and refinining it, they have several different interfaces with several different operating systems. Ultimately I can't see how that can succeed.
> 
> They must have several development teams all going in different directions.


I think you've hit the nail on the head. The lack of a unified strategy and vision. It's the same reason you get 10 different answers when talking to 10 different CSR's.

When they were a "small" satellite provider, they had a single purpose, vision, and strategy. Unfortunately, their tremendous growth has brought incoherence, fragmentation, lack of communication, and all the bad things, with none of the good things, that come with rapid growth.

The addition of Sirius, and possibly some additional HD, will help prove they are serious about getting back on track. The final, and perhaps more important, two pieces of the puzzle will be a unified and coherent hardware strategy, with an emphasis on *quality*, reliability, and innovation, along with a complete reorganization of Customer Support from the ground up, with an emphasis on *quality*.


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

garypen said:


> I think you've hit the nail on the head. The lack of a unified strategy and vision. It's the same reason you get 10 different answers when talking to 10 different CSR's.


I disagree with you on the CSR's. E* support is excellent for most problems and most people. I have been a subscriber since '99 and started with a 7100 and 4700. The 7100 was riddled with bugs and problems for the first couple years and the support rep.'s were always very patient and helpful. Most CSR's are in such a hurry to get to the next caller that they spit out a diagnosis so that they can get to the next caller otherwise they get fired since they're not productive enough. I REALLY appreciate that E* support is a TOLL FREE call and that you can call them 24/7 - I NEVER got that kind of service from the cable company. When I called them, they'd take a message and call me back. E* has excellent CSR's IMO.

I think the problem is with the executive office not sharing promotions and information with the CSR's not the CSR's themselves. I think they do a great job!


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

finniganps said:


> I disagree with you ...
> I think the problem is with the executive office not sharing promotions and information with the CSR's not the CSR's themselves. I think they do a great job!


It sounds like you are _agreeing_ with me. The problem in this instance is one of corporate communication, or lack thereof.

BTW, my experiences with the standard CSR's have been quite the opposite. I have found them mostly clueless and confused, putting me on hold for extremely long times, and in some cases disconnecting. The same has happened to quite a few others, according to posts on varius satellite boards.

The tech CSR's are much much better. And, the two times I contacted executive support resolution, the response has been fantastic. However, I should not have to bypass the standard CS, just to get an answer or reolution to any and every issue I may have.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

CEO support just depends. I e mailed them several times with no response last year around the holidays. ONLY when I contacted skyreports did they call me the very next morning. A e mail I sent for a friend got a instant response, I was selectively ignored

The tech support has been pretty good of late. techs friendly and mostly well trained.

Quality? Of hardware They said the 921 rollout would be better than the 721 SORRY IT WAS IS WORSE!

I believe they will standardize on one box, heck I posted that over a year ago as a necessary change.

E channel offerings and packages pretty good and well priced.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

RAD said:


> OK, so what's my point? My point is that E* customers have lowered their expectations on E* products when they shouldn't have to. You see comments that we've come to expect E* hardware to stink when it comes out, but they'll get around to fixing it eventually. For the amount of time E* worked on the 921 it should have come out with the same quality level of the D* HD DirecTivo. Just my two cents.


I'd love it if all of the people I did business with would do what they said they'd do, when they said they'd do it!! Not to hold them up as a paragon, but I know when I'm dealing with any of MSFT's first gen. products, it will be late and it will be buggy. I kind of expect the same for intial releases from other high tech. vendors and I'd put the 921 and that category. The economy hasn't made things in general any better. To make matters worse, these guys are in a tough marketplace.

I wish the 921 was rock solid, but to be honest with you, that wasn't what I was expecting. So what I've received is pretty much consistent with my expectations and in some instances, better!!


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

JM Anthony said:


> I'd love it if all of the people I did business with would do what they said they'd do, when they said they'd do it!! Not to hold them up as a paragon, but I know when I'm dealing with any of MSFT's first gen. products, it will be late and it will be buggy. I kind of expect the same for intial releases from other high tech. vendors and I'd put the 921 and that category. The economy hasn't made things in general any better. To make matters worse, these guys are in a tough marketplace.
> 
> I wish the 921 was rock solid, but to be honest with you, that wasn't what I was expecting. So what I've received is pretty much consistent with my expectations and in some instances, better!!


I agree - by the time it's bug free, it's obsolete. If you want a PVR with less bugs get a TiVo and pay the extra monthly fee and higher subscription fee through D* instead of E*.....bugs and software come w the territory. Until Windows 2000, CTRL+Alt+Delete was a weekly occurrence because of lockups with the Windows operating system. If you want a bug free 921, wait until 2 years after it was released...than buy it.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

I always love it when people compare E*'s hardware/software to Microsoft Windows. I will be the first to agree that their software has problems, especially with the security aspects.

But let's step back and compare the two.

E* - Has total control over the software, hardware and data being supplied to the set top box. You can't expand the hardware. You can't add new software. You can take only what E* give you.

Microsoft Windows - General purpose operating system that runs on thousands of different hardware platforms using different processors. You can add and remove hardware. You can add and remove software. The hardware and software can come from tens of thousands of vendors. 

So to review, you have one company that has total control over their product and it still comes with tons of bugs, missing features and is late. They have no one to blame but themselves for the quality of their product.

On the other hand you have a company that basically has no control over the hardware and software that their customers try to use it on. Except for the security holes in their product I've seen studies that show most of the crashes in Windows are caused by bad drivers written by non-Microsoft vendors with USB drivers causing the majority of the problem. If Microsoft had total control over the hardware and software and the user couldn't change anything, don't you think it would be a more stable product?

I don't know about you, but I have 5 computers at home that run various versions of Windows on it and I have to reboot them much less then I had to reboot my E* 811 while I had it. Yes, they will get it fixed eventually but what can't they get it out MUCH better at initial release. D* vendors seem to have found a way to do it, why not E*????


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

RAD said:


> OK, so what's my point? My point is that E* customers have lowered their expectations on E* products when they shouldn't have to.


Here Here!!! - Yes, it's really very sad.

Well, they didn't learn form the 7200, they didn't learn from the 721 - no reason to think the latest releases would be any better.

It's very had to recommend E* to anyone unless they are looking for specific programming.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I don't know. My 510 and 4900 have been very solid. The 6000 on the other hand, its inexcusable how they let that Flagship receiver flounder. I sure hope that the 921 ends up in better shape.

The 721 appears to be pretty solid now.


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## MattS (Apr 5, 2004)

TiVo makes their own TiVo boxes correct? So with that TiVo has been making recorders their entire existence and thats what their good at. E* is a satellite provider first and then a DVR manufactuer, The boxes arent the same and I hate when people compare them like they are. The only thing they have in common is recording capabilities and nothing else. One company KNOWS how to build a DVR receiver while the other (E*) has to build one from scratch and if it doesnt work people automatically assume "Oh it's crap, TiVo is much better". 




(Please correct me if I am wrong, I do not know alot about the TiVo boxes but this is what I have gathered)


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

MattS said:


> TiVo makes their own TiVo boxes correct? So with that TiVo has been making recorders their entire existence and thats what their good at. E* is a satellite provider first and then a DVR manufactuer, The boxes arent the same and I hate when people compare them like they are. The only thing they have in common is recording capabilities and nothing else. One company KNOWS how to build a DVR receiver while the other (E*) has to build one from scratch and if it doesnt work people automatically assume "Oh it's crap, TiVo is much better".


I agree with you 100%. E* made their own boxes to save their customers money rather than licensing the boxes through TiVo. If you don't like that, go to D* and pay more for a proven product (TiVo).


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

finniganps said:


> I agree with you 100%. E* made their own boxes to save their customers money rather than licensing the boxes through TiVo. If you don't like that, go to D* and pay more for a proven product (TiVo).


I guess I don't get the "pay more" part of this.

D* pvr fee = $4.99
E* pvr fee = $4.99

Equipment as a new and existing subscriber has been cheaper for me with D*.

IE.=

DirectTivo = $99.00 or less
721 = $299.00 or more

Programming (in my case AT100 w/locals - Total Choice Plus w/locals) was comparable or cheaper.

I am getting free Showtime and $2.00 a month HBO from D* 

I never got squat with all of the Dishplayer issues with E*


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

finniganps said:


> I agree with you 100%. E* made their own boxes to save their customers money rather than licensing the boxes through TiVo. If you don't like that, go to D* and pay more for a proven product (TiVo).


The D* Tivo costs less to use. It's $5/mo per ACCOUNT. E* charges $5/mo per UNIT.

The D* Tivo costs less to buy. The D* two-tuner Tivo is $99 or less. The E* two-tuner 721 is over $329 or more. ($249 for existing subs.)

Tell me again how E* is cheaper. Your calculator must be made by E*. (Don't worry, though. They promise to get the subtraction function working in the next software release. Odd numbers will be in the one after that.)


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

OK. For all you you disenfranchised, over-promissed, under-appreciated, over charged, poorly served E* customers. let's do a great big student body right and run to your latest Best Buy, get yourself a TiVo and quit the whining. As for our 921, we're on day 10, 2 hicups, no missed recordings and we love it. We don't do a lot of time shift recording, so the 921 suits us just fine, thank you!!


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## Marshall (Aug 27, 2003)

Charlie runs E*. He is a maverick. He drives the company. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if many of the DVR features are his ideas. I respect him for that.

D* on the other hand is a big conservative operation. Take little risk, do it right before you release it, plenty of money.

So where D* will take little chances, E* is always trying new ideas.

With that said, I no longer want to be a beta tester. Charlie is simply trying to move forward in too many different directions. His operation is simply to big for him to do it. His people can't complete what he wants, so they put it out anyway.

His operation is very similar to Microsoft, and like Microsoft everything is delivered late and full of bugs. Bill has an idea and everybody jumps. The only difference is that Microsoft never had to play catchup in thier primary business and they are a monopoly. So you accept the delays and the bugs because they are the only game in town. If there was another viable option then people would jump ship.

But D* was first and E* was always catching up. The DVR is like an appliance, it should work out of the box. Having your users debug it is a joke. If E* came out with a dvd player, it would probably play backwards. If they made a tv set, it would probably only play 1 channel for the first two months. 

I just want something that is reliable and won't give me any problems.


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## MattS (Apr 5, 2004)

Comparing a DVR with a normal everyday household appliance is a joke. A DVR is a device that has many functions to it including a HDD. A DVR is a piece of equipment that requires constant updating no matter who the builder. Just like computers, there are always upgrades. Appliances do one function and one function only. 


Blenders and DVR's should be just the same according to you...


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

MattS said:


> Blenders and DVR's should be just the same according to you...


At the very least, they should be like TV's, DVD players, or camcorders. They all seem to work relatively well out of the box.

And, speaking of DVR's, why is it the DirecTivos seem to work so well out of the box? Yes, they also get periodic software updates. But, they tend to be for fewer and for less serious issues than Dish.

Marshall was right on the money.


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## MattS (Apr 5, 2004)

TiVo makes the boxes. Not Directv. I am sure if Directv themselves made a box, it would have alot of problems too.


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## tm22721 (Nov 8, 2002)

MattS said:


> Comparing a DVR with a normal everyday household appliance is a joke.


A non-expandable DVR is an appliance in my book.

Now if E* had opened it up, ie RealPlay or TiVO, then we would be much more tolerant and third parties would have jumped in to fix some of the bugs. This must eventually happen if they continue to rely on early adopters who are also technically literate.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

MattS said:


> A DVR is a piece of equipment that requires constant updating no matter who the builder. Just like computers, there are always upgrades.


A DVR does not require constant updating. If the code is working when it ships, and new functions are not being added, what updating needs to be done?


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## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

I don't think Charlie is "saving us money" by designing and manufacturing their own DVR's and THEN charging us $5 EACH to use them.


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## Marshall (Aug 27, 2003)

Thing is, the 921 is just 1 of many cases where E* releases a seriously flawed product to its customer base. Maybe when they teamed with Microsoft on the dishplayer, they learned how to send out non functional product and get away with it.

The 921 is not the exception, it is the rule with E*. Send out garbage and fix it later on.

As far as a DVR being an appliance, if I am going to spend $1,000 on a video recorder, it better work when I buy it, not 6 months down the road. 

I also see now that all the dvd manufactures have added hard drive recording capabilities to their units. I bet they work out of the box.

I don't mind paying the month fees, or the high prices for the units, but I do want to get what I pay for.


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## Tusk (Nov 14, 2002)

MattS said:


> TiVo makes the boxes. Not Directv. I am sure if Directv themselves made a box, it would have alot of problems too.


That's why DirecTv doesn't make the boxes or program the software. :grin:


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## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

If I'm not mistaken, I thought that DirectTVannounced that it is going to follow the Dishnetwork model and start to manufacture their own boxes in the near future.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

They did say they would be choosing one company to brand and make all their Directv receivers. I guess we will be seeing some of the same software/hardware problems with Directv as Dish now. Unless they choose one hell of a company to do their receivers.


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## Tusk (Nov 14, 2002)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> They did say they would be choosing one company to brand and make all their Directv receivers. I guess we will be seeing some of the same software/hardware problems with Directv as Dish now. Unless they choose one hell of a company to do their receivers.


Actually, the receivers will be made and programmed the same way they always have. However, instead of the boxes saying Hughes, Phillips, RCA, Samsung, etc., they will all say DirecTv as evidenced by the HD10-250. DirecTv was concerned about consumers being confused about the different brands when all were being built in the same factory and all had the same UI.


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## Anthony Falcone (Dec 19, 2003)

So they will still be Tivo's?


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## finniganps (Jan 23, 2004)

Anthony Falcone said:


> So they will still be Tivo's?


If they're not TiVo or Replay, the whining will start at D* just like E*......now wouldn't that be funny.


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## Tusk (Nov 14, 2002)

Anthony Falcone said:


> So they will still be Tivo's?


Yes, nothing will change except the fronts of all boxes will look the same and they will all say DirecTv instead of RCA, Phillips, etc. Not one thing hardware or software wise will be changing.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

MattS said:


> TiVo makes the boxes. Not Directv. I am sure if Directv themselves made a box, it would have alot of problems too.


A. Tivo doesn't make the boxes. DirecTV licenses the IP from them (Intellectual Property). My guess is they are made by LG, maybe even Thomson judging from the look and feel of the remote. (LG makes the current Hughes and Sony HD boxes)

B. You are actually supporting the argument that Dish should not be designing and building their own equipment, but leaving that to consumer electronic experts instead.



Anthony Falcone said:


> _If I'm not mistaken, I thought that DirectTVannounced that it is going to follow the Dishnetwork model and start to manufacture their own boxes in the near future._




It said they were going to a unified branding scheme. They will most likely still contract the design and manufacture to an experienced consumer electronics company, who will build it to DirecTV's specs. (I would imagine that somewhere on the top of the list of specs is that it works correctly out of the friggin box.)



Tusk said:


> _DirecTv was concerned about consumers being confused about the different brands when all were being built in the same factory and all had the same UI._


Not all DirecTV receivers are built in the same factory. The Samsung and the Hughes/Sony/LG HD models are quite different.

Perhaps you meant that all the Tivo receivers were made in the same factory? (I wish they would use something like the Philips fascia as the standard, though. That Hughes fascia is butt ugly.)


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## Tusk (Nov 14, 2002)

garypen said:


> Not all DirecTV receivers are built in the same factory. The Samsung and the Hughes/Sony/LG HD models are quite different.
> 
> Perhaps you meant that all the Tivo receivers were made in the same factory? (I wish they would use something like the Philips fascia as the standard, though. That Hughes fascia is butt ugly.)


That's what I meant. There are 4 types of Tivo boxes but they all come from the same place.


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## Guest (May 21, 2004)

Marshall said:


> I was ready to buy a 921 last fall, but boy am I glad I coudn't one.
> 
> I am a long time DISH fan. Started with the 3000, made money on the stock, suffered through the dishplayer (loved the interface), hate the 6000, like the 508, but now its time to move on.
> 
> ...


Take a look at the new 942 HD-PVR from Dish. Looks like a replacement for the 921 and will compete with the TiVo.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=888
http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=889


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## Tusk (Nov 14, 2002)

KenWilliams said:


> Take a look at the new 942 HD-PVR from Dish. Looks like a replacement for the 921 and will compete with the TiVo.
> 
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=888
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=889


According to the sign, it only will have one HD capable tuner.


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## Marshall (Aug 27, 2003)

Every unit E* comes out with is just to buggy. 

Now they are working on the 942 when the 921 doesn't even have a guide for the ota channels. People bought that thing 6 months ago and it is still not working correctly.

And to believe users are writing how great the 921 is because it only reboots once or twice a week.


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## Marshall (Aug 27, 2003)

Is it based on the 522 platform or the 921 platform?

Take a piece from here, take a piece from there, and we have a brand new receiver. Get the power light to turn on and its ready to go. Our customers will buy anything.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

According to the pictures it is based on the 522 platform. Like a 811 and a 510 dvr in one box. ONe tuner is hd and the other tuner is sd.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

The 721 921 platform is a dead duck. I think thats good, so they can cncentrate all their efforts on one basic platform.

It will help them with bug fixes, feature development and perhaps most important! They will have to be very careful when all their eggs are in one basket.


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

These guys are screwing up the naming. This should really be called the 922. The second digit generally refers to the number of internal tuners. Actually, the 9 might remind people of 921, so it should be called 622, which is higher up than 522.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> The 721 921 platform is a dead duck. I think thats good, so they can cncentrate all their efforts on one basic platform.
> 
> It will help them with bug fixes, feature development and perhaps most important! They will have to be very careful when all their eggs are in one basket.


From software development perspective, using DishLinux much easy then ROM based OS.


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