# Fewer glitches – Power the dish



## JonFo (Aug 19, 2006)

Hi everyone,

As most HR20 users, I too have battled a long series of issues with this box, but I wanted to share a thesis (need more data points to be conclusive) that part of the issues many of us have had relates to getting the cleanest signals to and from the dish.

My install of the new AT9 (replacing a 3LNB dish, as I've been on HD for many years) went smoothly enough, but after two weeks, the main LNB (103 sats had no signal) went out. Installed came back and replaced LNB's, and presto, good signal.

However, signal strength was not the best (and had not been on 103), and the HR20's (and the other Tivo DVR's) were pretty warm driving the dish though a Zimwell 6x8 multiswitch.
The zimwell is about 60' of cable downstream from the dish, three DVRs (including 1 HR20) are 10' from the switch.

The installer (and posts here) indicated that the HR20 required the exclusive use of the Zimwell 6x8 multiswitch, and that my existing Spaun could not be leveraged.

Therefore, for about a month, I ran five DVRs thorugh the 6x8. During which time, I experienced many of the Sat signal issues mentioned in other threads. I know some of this could be software version related, but for me, it was fairly consistent across versions.

After removing the B-block coverters (which are not required at this point in time) and seeing some diminution of the issues, I began to wonder if the problem is that the receivers can not adequately power the configuration.
Even with multiple receivers, I think a lot people (myself included before this) are pushing the limits of the voltage consistency a value-engineered CE device can supply. Many of the recording issues could be linked to momentary weak voltages not switching LNB's or glitching the LNB and/or multiswitch.

So I decided to power the dish by cascading in my nice SPAUN 5802 NF powered multiswitch (a ~$500 piece) to drive the dish through the new D* supplied Zimwell 6x8 multiswitch.
The SPAUN provides the power to the dish, so it de-stresses the receivers. Normally, the receivers need to supply the voltages to drive and select the LNB's through the multiswitch. I can confirm that this is helping, as the receivers now run a heck of lot cooler and touching the output cables on the receivers is barely above room temp, whereas before they were hot.

Since I've deployed the Spaun, all the DVR's have been doing great. Attached is the diagram of my current setup.










Currently, instead of the above, I'd recommend people get the new wideband Spaun (plus associated power adapter)
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=WBS41202NF

For people just looking to add power to the dish and finding the Zimwell 6x8 is enough outputs, you can add power with this device:
http://www.sonoradesign.com/newpdfs/Sheet_HRPID1422_11.pdf
http://www.sonorastore.com/510.html

For only $50, a cheap way to solve a lot of headaches related to dish and LNB issues

What have some of you experienced with respect to adding powered switches or drivers?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Zinwell also makes a good switch.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=02&CAT=&PROD=WB616

little cheaper then the Spaun.

The Sonora power/signal locker is a great add on to anyone that has longer runs.


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

I'd say some HR20 users are battling a long series of issues with this box, not most.

Don't scare away the new people.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

I made reference to this a couple of weeks ago as I have not suffered near the problems some have. I am running the Zinwell WB616 as I do have some long runs and some are not solid copper and I don't want to replace them if I don't have to.

Of course, I don't have any MPEG-4 feeds so that could be a reason I have not had many of the reported problems.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

glennb said:


> I'd say some HR20 users are battling a long series of issues with this box, not most.
> 
> Don't scare away the new people.


Why would this be scaring away anyone?

Up till recently there has been no powered multiswitch for the 5LNB dishes.
And it has been known from the begining that with the passive multiswitch, the longer the runs between the dish and the switch and the switch and the dish, you may result in the possiblity of not enough power making it to the dish. (hence why limit of 100' with solid core RG6)


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

I haven't had any problems, but the possibility of less stress on the receivers makes the Sonora very attractive to me. My boxes all run at the high side of the normal temperature range. 

I do have a fairly long run. Thanks for the info!


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## k0rww (Aug 20, 2006)

JonFo said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> For people just looking to add power to the dish and finding the Zimwell 6x8 is enough outputs, you can add power with this device:
> http://www.sonoradesign.com/newpdfs/Sheet_HRPID1422_11.pdf
> ...


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## kay (Nov 27, 2005)

I am currently running two 6x8's in series (not side by side, as has been the suggested use) and my HR20 runs burning hot, I wonder if this may be a decent solution - although i'm certainly not putting down $500 on a multiswitch! I may look into the $50 option


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

kay said:


> I am currently running two 6x8's in series (not side by side, as has been the suggested use) and my HR20 runs burning hot, I wonder if this may be a decent solution - although i'm certainly not putting down $500 on a multiswitch! I may look into the $50 option


What is the internal temperature reading (based on the System information screen), for your HR20.

Your HR20 should not be too hot, that you can't put your hand on it.


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## JonFo (Aug 19, 2006)

k0rww said:


> I'm considering doing this because I have two WB68 switches. My four lines from the antenna are not labeled.
> 
> How do I figure out which lines are which?
> 
> I don't think it mattered during the installation which-went-where, so can I go by the existing inputs to the WB68?


It does not matter bettween the power locker and the dish, just wire up the four wires from the dish to the outputs of the powered locker and you'll be set. The dish itself has a multiswitch
What does matter to get straight is the wiring between the two multiswitches and the locker. Your config is exactly as depicted in the PDF linked, so just follow that.

BTW- a powered multiswitch will get very hot to the touch, as they run at something like 125 degrees. All that heat is what is NOT in your DVR's or receivers. So that's part of the big benefit here.


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why would this be scaring away anyone?
> 
> Up till recently there has been no powered multiswitch for the 5LNB dishes.
> And it has been known from the begining that with the passive multiswitch, the longer the runs between the dish and the switch and the switch and the dish, you may result in the possiblity of not enough power making it to the dish. (hence why limit of 100' with solid core RG6)


Because the first sentence of the posting says - As *most* HR20 users, I too have battled a long series of issues with this box......

If somebody new comes along I thought they might read that and figure most people with the HR20 have battled a long series of issues with this box.... which isn't really true.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

glennb said:


> Because the first sentence of the posting says - As *most* HR20 users, I too have battled a long series of issues with this box......
> 
> If somebody new comes along I thought they might read that and figure most people with the HR20 have battled a long series of issues with this box.... which isn't really true.


I have seen no evidence either way, it could be that a majority do not have problems or it is equally likely based on the data we have (none) that the majority are having lots of problems. There is clearly a collection of people that claim to have issues with the HR20, myself included. There is a clear trail of evidence that D* has been releasing software very quickly in an attempt to resolve software defects. Earl as also acknowledged that his D* contacts have admitted as much, so it is logical to conclude that these software release are related to defects as no new functionality has been deployed yet we continue to receive updates that appear to resolve some outstanding issue and create new ones. Since many of these issues are software defects, they are on every HR20, it is just that the use case that presents the defects for those users has not been executed by those people who have not seen the problem. These are are people who claim to have no issues. There is no evidence to say that most have problems or most do not. It is clear that there is a set of us who do have problems with the HR20 and since a lot of these issues are software related it is highly likely that all of us have the software problems, but some set of those users have not tripped on the use cases that trigger them, whether that is a majority or minority is a questions, but it is clear from the reviews from multiple sources and comments in other forums including this one, there is clearly a set of users with issues.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I may be getting that Sonora. For $50 I'm all over it. I noticed today that my cable runs for the HR20 are pretty warm. If this can get me a better signal, cooler cables and the elimination of the 771 error I'm there.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Is the Sonora pointless if I'm only running 2 HR20s, with no multiswitches? One unit, on about a 25' run to the dish, has been great with rare occurences of the Searching message.


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## JonFo (Aug 19, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Is the Sonora pointless if I'm only running 2 HR20s, with no multiswitches? One unit, on about a 25' run to the dish, has been great with rare occurences of the Searching message.


It might be, as that's a pretty short run. Also, a sonora locker assumes a multiswitch before it.

Removal of the heat load from you DVR's might be a plus worth considering.

Also, the fact that a locker keeps the mechanical switch in the dish 'locked', is a plus during extreeme temp conditions.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

JonFo said:


> It might be, as that's a pretty short run. Also, a sonora locker assumes a multiswitch before it.
> 
> Removal of the heat load from you DVR's might be a plus worth considering.
> 
> Also, the fact that a locker keeps the mechanical switch in the dish 'locked', is a plus during extreeme temp conditions.


My dumb self forgot to say the HR20 on a 60'-70' run has the Searching message more often.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

I like the signal locker idea.. anyone get one of these yet?

FYI.. In my opinion this is an important discussion and worthy of a sticky.


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## yamaham (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm only running one HR20 (both inputs) and one R10 (one input at this time) and have yet to have an issue with my HR20. Sure I get the pink FF bug, but it records everything I tell it to and just generally works. I still prefer TiVo but I can't say this one gives me any headaches.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> My dumb self forgot to say the HR20 on a 60'-70' run has the Searching message more often.


I think something is wrong here--I have about 100 feet dish-to-WB68, and another 60 to 70 feet to four receivers, and my HR20 has NEVER lost signal (while anyone was watching or recording) since the install six weeks ago.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

btmoore said:


> I have seen no evidence either way, it could be that a majority do not have problems or it is equally likely based on the data we have (none) that the majority are having lots of problems. There is clearly a collection of people that claim to have issues with the HR20, myself included. There is a clear trail of evidence that D* has been releasing software very quickly in an attempt to resolve software defects. Earl as also acknowledged that his D* contacts have admitted as much, so it is logical to conclude that these software release are related to defects as no new functionality has been deployed yet we continue to receive updates that appear to resolve some outstanding issue and create new ones. Since many of these issues are software defects, they are on every HR20, it is just that the use case that presents the defects for those users has not been executed by those people who have not seen the problem. These are are people who claim to have no issues. There is no evidence to say that most have problems or most do not. It is clear that there is a set of us who do have problems with the HR20 and since a lot of these issues are software related it is highly likely that all of us have the software problems, but some set of those users have not tripped on the use cases that trigger them, whether that is a majority or minority is a questions, but it is clear from the reviews from multiple sources and comments in other forums including this one, there is clearly a set of users with issues.


How many times can you explain it BT? The software downloads are pretty strong evidence that problems are affecting a significant enough volume of subs, and that the potential is there to affect an even larger number. There are no actual numbers reflecting problems vs. no (or little) problems, and who wouldn't want to see that data? Why would D* be wasting all this time and energy if the a very small minority of people were having problems? It seems everyone is susceptible, or they wouldn't be doing massive downloads. So far, FYI, that latest download has not hit home here on the East Coast. Wonder if it has anything to do with you West Coasters reporting issues remain, both old and new, on reliability? Not sure. Maybe Earl can answer.

As for this thread, is it really possible that there is another layer of technological complexity/cost related to the HR20 problems? I sure hope not. Imagine if everyone who fits the profile of this thread (too many DVRs) needed to get that added piece of gear, or worse, have D* come and install it.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> I think something is wrong here--I have about 100 feet dish-to-WB68, and another 60 to 70 feet to four receivers, and my HR20 has NEVER lost signal (while anyone was watching or recording) since the install six weeks ago.


Excellent point. This sounds like more things to spend money on and another headache. I haven't had a problem in 3 weeks (fingers crossed) and it all began when I removed the BBCs and changed to component. No empirical evidence that those two moves solved any issues, however. Just the experience of a working HR20, which didn't work before I did it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

In my town house... I had runs from the dish, to the multiswitch.. that where 20 feet. Then the longest run, 20ft from the switch to the main room....

I had issues, until I replaced the multiswitch with a powered version.
All signal issues when away at that point.

In my new home.... I go about 75 feet from dish to the WB68, then another 75ft (longest) to one of my R15's, and I have no issues. So the type of wires, the quality of the connectors, ect... can play a factor into it.

And if the signal locker (which basically acts as a constant POWER source, vs the changing power sources from the receivers only), helps solve the issues... then that is just boils down to how the DBS technology works.

I for one never have seen any reason why the switches should be passive... they should have always been powered.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> How many times can you explain it BT? The software downloads are pretty strong evidence that problems are affecting a significant enough volume of subs, and that the potential is there to affect an even larger number. There are no actual numbers reflecting problems vs. no (or little) problems, and who wouldn't want to see that data? Why would D* be wasting all this time and energy if the a very small minority of people were having problems? It seems everyone is susceptible, or they wouldn't be doing massive downloads. So far, FYI, that latest download has not hit home here on the East Coast. Wonder if it has anything to do with you West Coasters reporting issues remain, both old and new, on reliability? Not sure. Maybe Earl can answer.


I don't think has anything to do with "small minorities" of people seeing issues, or large issues.... with regards to the # of software releases.

It does play into the how fast a software release rollouts there, not the fact that one will be done.

Ultimately... DirecTV doesn't want any issues in the units (doesn't everyone). So if they have a report of an issue... they are going to investigate it... if it can be found to be a problem with the unit, they are going to fix it (if they can)...

Why there has been so many software releases, is actually direct due to the relatively "low" number of HR20's out there. As the installation base increases, you will start to see them less in frequency, but larger in size.

But since the number is still low, they can release smaller releases more frequently.

No different then other products.... when they are first released, you often see the most software updates... then as time goes on, they slow down, but increase with size.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> In my town house... I had runs from the dish, to the multiswitch.. that where 20 feet. Then the longest run, 20ft from the switch to the main room....
> 
> I had issues, until I replaced the multiswitch with a powered version.
> All signal issues when away at that point.
> ...


If power is the problem, why does D* go down this path, the cable company dosen't require me to purchase amplifiers to make their products work correctly?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> If power is the problem, why does D* go down this path, the cable company dosen't require me to purchase amplifiers to make their products work correctly?


They are not amplifiers... The insert a voltage into the line, they don't amplify anything with the signal.

The dish requires power to switch LNB's in it's assemblies, so that you don't have to have 7 different LNB's to talk to all the different SATs and the signals in those sats.

The SAT boxes under normal circumstances, should provide enough power...
But different type of cables, the number of connections, how the connections are done (Basically the install), can end up in issues and loss of the voltage to power the dish.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are not amplifiers... The insert a voltage into the line, they don't amplify anything with the signal.
> 
> The dish requires power to switch LNB's in it's assemblies, so that you don't have to have 7 different LNB's to talk to all the different SATs and the signals in those sats.
> 
> ...


I know that they are not amps, and I know what a powered MS is, I was talking about equivalents. I do not need to purchase distribution amps to support cable, D* should provide the right equipment to support their services. That is assuming that some of the 771 issues are related to passive MS in cable infrastructures that are in the specs that D* outlines.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

I think the point is, some of the installs are at their technical limit, and it is sometimes easier to spend a few bucks to eliminate problems than to endure visit after visit from D* installers, for those of us who have the ability to improve our own system.

I personally have bought small items that the cable company should have provided back in the dark days when I had cable.

The other question is, what if you need more than 8 outputs from a multi-switch? And the answer appears to be you will have to supply your own switch for that.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> I know that they are not amps, and I know what a powered MS is, I was talking about equivalents. I do not need to purchase distribution amps to support cable, D* should provide the right equipment to support their services. That is assuming that some of the 771 issues are related to passive MS in cable infrastructures that are in the specs that D* outlines.


There are installers that will install a powered multiswitch, if they know that the install will require it.

In others... they just install what they are told to install.
And I think that has more to do with the dymanics of the DirecTV - Private Installer company relationship.... Then anything else.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

paulman182 said:


> The other question is, what if you need more than 8 outputs from a multi-switch? And the answer appears to be you will have to supply your own switch for that.


Exactly... it reaches a point on $$... 
How much should DirecTV "eat" to get the signal to all the boxes you want.

I mean that #9 tuner in the house, you may have gotten for free... so there is a cost they eat.

Then if they tried to install a $300 powered 6x16 multiswitch..
That $4.99 month mirroring fee (which partially has to pay for the programming), will take how long to offset the cost for the $300 switch and the cost of that receiver.

Ultimately it boils down to $$ for these installs.


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Zinwell also makes a good switch.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=02&CAT=&PROD=WB616
> 
> little cheaper then the Spaun.
> ...


I currently have the Zinwell WB68, but need more outputs.

Is the Zinwell WB616 really good?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Blitz68 said:


> Is the Zinwell WB616 really good?


Haven't seen anything negative about it.


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## Andrew_J_M (Feb 11, 2005)

If a WB68 goes bad then D* will replace it, but I'm sure that they won't replace a WB616 that you bought yourself. It would be more cost-effective to purchase a second WB68 and add splitters. Total outlay around $100 vs $300.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

So the Sonora....

I take it you would take the 4 cables from the dish into it. Then 4 cables from it into the WB68 and then the outputs there to your receivers. Am I correct here? I ask because the install PDF seems to be toward getting two WB68's going.

Also, I found the Sonora at Solid Signal so it's available at other places as well.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

btmoore said:


> If power is the problem, why does D* go down this path, the cable company dosen't require me to purchase amplifiers to make their products work correctly?


The cable companies generally won't put anything more than a splitter on your service entrance. I was recently with Comcast and had to install a powered two-way splitter on my own dime to solve ondemand and other issues.. since the tech could get most services to "basically work" Comcast didn't really want to help me out. Besides, my time is worth more than the $25 it took to get the viewsonics splitter and solve the issue.

In this case given the quality of installers I got (MasTec), $50 is also a small price to pay compared to the day of productivity i would lose waiting on the installer to show up and attempt to shorten my drops by doing things the right way.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> So the Sonora....
> 
> I take it you would take the 4 cables from the dish into it. Then 4 cables from it into the WB68 and then the outputs there to your receivers. Am I correct here? I ask because the install PDF seems to be toward getting two WB68's going.
> 
> Also, I found the Sonora at Solid Signal so it's available at other places as well.


From what I know about it, it is really recommended when you are running LONG runs, or trying to do a multiswitch array scenerio


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## cybrsurfer (Sep 17, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> The cable companies generally won't put anything more than a splitter on your service entrance. I was recently with Comcast and had to install a powered two-way splitter on my own dime to solve ondemand and other issues.. since the tech could get most services to "basically work" Comcast didn't really want to help me out. Besides, my time is worth more than the $25 it took to get the viewsonics splitter and solve the issue.
> 
> In this case given the quality of installers I got (MasTec), $50 is also a small price to pay compared to the day of productivity i would lose waiting on the installer to show up and attempt to shorten my drops by doing things the right way.


Hmmm, you should not have paid them to get the service working as it supposed to. That's absolutely nuts for a carrier to expect you to pay for a network problem. There is no guarantee based on what you describe that you won't continue to have problems. I think the problem is on Comcasts end.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

cybrsurfer said:


> Hmmm, you should not have paid them to get the service working as it supposed to. That's absolutely nuts for a carrier to expect you to pay for a network problem. There is no guarantee based on what you describe that you won't continue to have problems. I think the problem is on Comcasts end.


I think his point is how many windmills do you want to tilt. Sometimes you give up the good and right fight because the pain is not worth it. He shouldn't of had to, but the best path for him was just to buy an amp and fix it himself.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

cybrsurfer said:


> Hmmm, you should not have paid them to get the service working as it supposed to. That's absolutely nuts for a carrier to expect you to pay for a network problem. There is no guarantee based on what you describe that you won't continue to have problems. I think the problem is on Comcasts end.


The problem was driving 6 digital sets.. too much loss. I didn't pay them, I simply saved myself some time by fixing the issue myself.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I'm wondering if some of the 771 problems are people with long runs trying to power up the switch(es) and the LNBs as they switch from one LNB to another. I wonder if the extra power drain could delay the LNB signal long enough for the receiver to start with a 771 message until everything reached operating voltages. The powered units would help keep the LNB amplifiers happily warm and active.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Andrew_J_M (Feb 11, 2005)

tibber said:


> I'm wondering if some of the 771 problems are people with long runs trying to power up the switch(es) and the LNBs as they switch from one LNB to another. I wonder if the extra power drain could delay the LNB signal long enough for the receiver to start with a 771 message until everything reached operating voltages. The powered units would help keep the LNB amplifiers happily warm and active.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I have never seen the 771 problem. My run is 15 feet from dish to grounding blocks, 1 foot grounding blocks to multiswitch, then 65 feet from multiswitch to the BBCs which are connected directly to the HR20. So the "long run bad" theory could be true, but it is impossible to prove a negative so I'm told.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I hoped by using the term "some", I'd help someone who might have long runs with few receivers driving the switches. I'm certain there are many problems going on here and don't mean to minimize anyone's problems with the HR20s. 

There is enough fire here to be ensured there is smoke...

Cheers,
Tom


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## JonFo (Aug 19, 2006)

tibber said:


> I'm wondering if some of the 771 problems are people with long runs trying to power up the switch(es) and the LNBs as they switch from one LNB to another. I wonder if the extra power drain could delay the LNB signal long enough for the receiver to start with a 771 message until everything reached operating voltages. The powered units would help keep the LNB amplifiers happily warm and active.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I was having a rash of 771's, and after I put in the powered multiswitch, they all went away (and while on the same rev of DVR code). So I credit the stability of the clean power for this.

There is another thread on 771's where a scenario was listed that made it clear to me that the root issue is driving the multiswitches.
My take is that there is a lot of variability in the installs, but bottom line, if you have issues with signal reception consistency, then immediately go for a powered switch (or a locker).

I reviewed all my recordings this am, and in the last week, no glitches whatsoever, and the todo list had been long (20+ items). Before I had done this, it was a crap shoot, especially for MPEG4 locals.

Even after a big rainstorm last Wednesday, no issues with recordings during or after. I say this really fixed my issues with signal. Now for those pesky DVR glitches, that's another can of worms


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## mpiscitello (Oct 24, 2006)

Neil Derryberry said:


> I like the signal locker idea.. anyone get one of these yet?


I just finished my install this weekend - new Slimline dish and cabling to new HR20and old R10. I was concerned about the cable lengths as I probably have roughly 150' from the dish to the WB68 and 75' to the receiver(s). I used Belden 1829AC cable and was very good about all connections - when I powered everything up it worked like a champ. But because of my nature I wasn't satisfied - so I added the Sonora power inserter/signal locker into the system last night right before the switch. I'm not sure if it is really making a huge difference, but I just feel better that the LNB powering burden is not on the receivers anymore.

If you do decide to install one - let me know - there is a trick to make sure of when wiring it in.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

tibber said:


> I'm wondering if some of the 771 problems are people with long runs trying to power up the switch(es) and the LNBs as they switch from one LNB to another. I wonder if the extra power drain could delay the LNB signal long enough for the receiver to start with a 771 message until everything reached operating voltages. The powered units would help keep the LNB amplifiers happily warm and active.


I noticed an interesting situation when I first got my AT9 about 6 months ago. My installer did not provide me with a WB68 (long story), so I purchased one myself. I ran the 3 additional lines from my dish that the installer did not run (again, long story) over to the WB68 and hooked all 4 connections up. I only connected my H20 receiver at first to test the signal and noticed an interesting problem; on some sats my H20 would only get a signal from every other transponder. I spent a good amount of time trying to figure this out. I ended up hooking up another one of my SD receivers to the multiswitch while the H20 was still connected and all of the sudden everything was working again. I guess it was a power issue to the multiswitch or LNB assembly when only my H20 was connected. The run from my H20 to the WB68 was only about 25 feet, and from the WB68 to the dish probably another 50 feet. Unclear why there seemed to be a power issue, but I haven't had any problems since in terms of losing signal on any transponders.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

mpiscitello said:


> I just finished my install this weekend - new Slimline dish and cabling to new HR20and old R10. I was concerned about the cable lengths as I probably have roughly 150' from the dish to the WB68 and 75' to the receiver(s). I used Belden 1829AC cable and was very good about all connections - when I powered everything up it worked like a champ. But because of my nature I wasn't satisfied - so I added the Sonora power inserter/signal locker into the system last night right before the switch. I'm not sure if it is really making a huge difference, but I just feel better that the LNB powering burden is not on the receivers anymore.
> 
> If you do decide to install one - let me know - there is a trick to make sure of when wiring it in.


I just ordered it from Solid Signal.. hope to have it before the weekend. I've got about 40' to the wb68 and another 70' to the slimline dish.. the wb68 is mounted outside and I may undertake a project to move that inside to a backboard before the locker gets here.

What's the trick?


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

I'm using a TERK BMS 5 x 8 Powered multiswitch (installed from my previous 3 LNB setup) My internal temp on my HR20 is 120 degrees. I still experience all of the usual software related glitches posted elsewhere on this forum, however I have not had to use the red button in awhile...I'm still on Upgrade version 0xe3 which updated on Sat 10/21 at 4:33am eastern standard

Question: I have read elsewhere on this forum that the Zinwell 6 x 8 is D* standard and should be used...My Terk seems to work fine for my setup.. Anyone else use the TERK 5 x 8?


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## snewo (Sep 30, 2006)

This is a very interesting thread. Can someone who is having problems try a few things out to test the theory? 

I believe all I have is a grounding block and I'm sending 2 outputs to my HR20 and 1 to a basic SD non DVR (H10 I believe). I haven't had many of the problems people complain about. Sure, I had the (obviously software) FF bug, pink FF, and the pixelated images while FFing but I'm just not seeing the stuff people have mentioned in most of the threads. This is the first thread that had things starting to click as to what might be some people's problems. This might not be a case of "my unit doesn't experience the same problems yours has" but it might be more of a "my unit would experience the same problems in your setup."

If there is someone, who is experiencing problems, that can remove the multiswitch complexity from their setups and run straight HR20 to the grounding block this might help a whole lot of people. Any takers?

Hey Earl, If you want to go crazy you could even remove power to your dish to see what effect it has on the unit.



Snewo


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

This thread is kinda scarry.. If externaly powering the dish is helping boxes, it would seem that there is a hardware problem.. namely a weak power supply... this would also explain a lot of the screwy lockups and bugs.. and would never be able to fix with software....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mcatgt said:


> Question: I have read elsewhere on this forum that the Zinwell 6 x 8 is D* standard and should be used...My Terk seems to work fine for my setup.. Anyone else use the TERK 5 x 8?


You won't be able to use that Terk if you move to a 5LNB SAT Dish.
It is not compatible.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

houskamp said:


> This thread is kinda scarry.. If externaly powering the dish is helping boxes, it would seem that there is a hardware problem.. namely a weak power supply... this would also explain a lot of the screwy lockups and bugs.. and would never be able to fix with software....


Well yes... you are right that no software fix can fix that... but if it takes just a proper multiswitch, or a signal locker...

If there is a multiswitch involved, then the power for the box also has to power the multiswitch, as well as the dish. It has been known for a LONG time (not really new), that powered multiswitches have pretty much solved a LOT of signal issues.

It is not exclusive to DirecTV, Dish is very similar in this regard.

There is not a "lot" of voltage being sent over that wire.
Lower grade cable... longer runs... multiswitches sending 4,8,16,32 feeds all over house, all contribute to it.


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

mcatgt said:


> I'm using a TERK BMS 5 x 8 Powered multiswitch (installed from my previous 3 LNB setup) My internal temp on my HR20 is 120 degrees. I still experience all of the usual software related glitches posted elsewhere on this forum, however I have not had to use the red button in awhile...I'm still on Upgrade version 0xe3 which updated on Sat 10/21 at 4:33am eastern standard
> 
> Question: I have read elsewhere on this forum that the Zinwell 6 x 8 is D* standard and should be used...My Terk seems to work fine for my setup.. Anyone else use the TERK 5 x 8?


I was using the BMS-58 up until DTV came out and put in the AT-9. To be able to do MPEG4 you will have to switch to a wideband switch like Earl pointed out.

Did DTV install a 5 lnb dish? If so why did they not install the WB68?

And yes the BMS-58 served it's purpose well for the last 3 years


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Blitz68 said:


> I currently have the Zinwell WB68, but need more outputs.
> 
> Is the Zinwell WB616 really good?


I have been running one for well over a month now with no issues. It replaced dual BMS-58's that were rock solid.

I do wish the power brick was better quality though.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Andrew_J_M said:


> I have never seen the 771 problem. My run is 15 feet from dish to grounding blocks, 1 foot grounding blocks to multiswitch, then 65 feet from multiswitch to the BBCs which are connected directly to the HR20. So the "long run bad" theory could be true, but it is impossible to prove a negative so I'm told.


My runs are about 30' from dish to MS (WB616) and then another 100' plus to the location of my HR20. I have not had the 771 issue, but it has always been connected to a powered switch. Also, this location is fed by Belden 1829A coax which is high quality cable, but still CCS.

I have an HR10 175' away from the MS and I may pick up another HR20 and have it mirror the HR10 in this location and see how it works.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Neil Derryberry said:


> I just ordered it from Solid Signal.. hope to have it before the weekend. I've got about 40' to the wb68 and another 70' to the slimline dish.. the wb68 is mounted outside and I may undertake a project to move that inside to a backboard before the locker gets here.
> 
> What's the trick?


Definately let us know how it goes for you and how you hook it up. I may be ordering one of these from Solid Signal next week as I can get a 2" pole mount adapter from them as well that I need.

The only time I have seen the 771 error is during Sunday Ticket and since it's gotten cold (below or near freezing). I'm guessing during normal operation everything is fine but on Sunday's I'm flipping channels around so much the LNB's just get fried and won't switch right anymore. Once I unplug the cables it seems to clear up.

I only have one multiswitch but have 80' runs to my gounding blocks. 4 footers to the WB68. Then 10 footers to 5 tuners and another 50 feet to a 6th tuner. So that's a lot of cable length and tuners going to that LNB. I've thought about just getting the WB616 but I just don't see a day of needing over 8 tuners so the Sonora will do fine.

And yes, I'm interested in this trick of hooking it up.
I personally would hook it up like this:

LNB > grounding blocks > Sonora > WB68 > to receivers.

One last question...I promise. Anyone know if the Sonora can be grounded so that you don't need separate grounding blocks?


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## Starrbuck (Jun 25, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> You won't be able to use that Terk if you move to a 5LNB SAT Dish.
> It is not compatible.


Would the older receivers still work with the Terk if you wired it up along with the WB68 as in the first post of this thread?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Starrbuck said:


> Would the older receivers still work with the Terk if you wired it up along with the WB68 as in the first post of this thread?


It should...but some multi-switches that should cascade as pictured really do not. I've had better luck with powerpass splitters as pictured in the first page of the sonoradesign pdf (without using the locker. Someday I may give that a try.) When D* only brought one wb68 to my house, I used it in parallel with the older zinwell (sam8?) until they brought another wb68.

http://www.sonoradesign.com/newpdfs/Sheet_HRPID1422_11.pdf

Cheers,
Tom


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## mpiscitello (Oct 24, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Definately let us know how it goes for you and how you hook it up. I may be ordering one of these from Solid Signal next week as I can get a 2" pole mount adapter from them as well that I need.
> 
> And yes, I'm interested in this trick of hooking it up.
> I personally would hook it up like this:
> ...


Mine is connected in the order you describe.

Not necessarily a "trick" but more something to be aware of - after I spent 3 hours making cables, etc. to make everything look neat with the WB68 and Sonora HRPID1422, I fired up my receivers and got basically the 771 error - but yet was still getting some signals on a few transponders. After basically yelling at whoever would listen (it was late when I finished) I realized you have to ensure you wire from the inserter to the switch as follows:
20V to 18V
14V to 13V
20V w/ 22kHz to 18V w/ 22kHz
14V w/ 22kHz to 13V w/ 22kHz
Probably very obvious to everyone, but I had two cables backwards and until I realized it I thought the inserter was broken...

I hadn't really had the system up for much time before putting the inserter in, but had noticed a quick "searching for sat" banner sometimes when changing to a MPEG4 local - haven't seen that since the install of the power inserter.

As far as grounding, the Sonora has a gounding terminal, but since mine is inside next to the WB68 I'm relying on my grounding block outside near the dish to take care of that...


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> One last question...I promise. Anyone know if the Sonora can be grounded so that you don't need separate grounding blocks?


One thing to consider in the electrical code: the grounding has to be within a short distance of the point the wires penetrate the building. (Sorry, don't recall the exact distance.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tibber said:


> One thing to consider in the electrical code: the grounding has to be within a short distance of the point the wires penetrate the building. (Sorry, don't recall the exact distance.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


My grounding blocks are inside and gounded to the house ground via the cold water pipe. So no problem there.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mpiscitello said:


> As far as grounding, the Sonora has a gounding terminal, but since mine is inside next to the WB68 I'm relying on my grounding block outside near the dish to take care of that...


If it has one then that will really clean up my wire mess. It didn't look like it has one from the PDF but I'll take your word for it.


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## mpiscitello (Oct 24, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> If it has one then that will really clean up my wire mess. It didn't look like it has one from the PDF but I'll take your word for it.


bottom right corner of the locker/inserter...


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

Copper coated steel center wire RG6 contributes to the problem. 100% copper RG6 alleviates the problem. Multiswitches sending feeds all over house with no receivers at the end of the lines contribute. Lots of receivers alleviate.


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> You won't be able to use that Terk if you move to a 5LNB SAT Dish.
> It is not compatible.


Earl...it's been in use since I got the 5LNB installed 2 months ago!! As far as I can tell, I have no problems.


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## laxcoach (Dec 7, 2005)

mcatgt said:


> Earl...it's been in use since I got the 5LNB installed 2 months ago!! As far as I can tell, I have no problems.


The installers tried to get me to keep my old multiswitch. You will run into a problem if you tune to HD locals on two separate STBs. If you only have one, it will work fine.


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## JonFo (Aug 19, 2006)

Further comments and info about why this is recommended. 

To me, the fact that supplementary power removes the heat load from the DVR's is not just icing on the cake; it's possibly an additional contributor to increased stability.

The HR20 is a computer, and computers hate heat, and like most computers, will glitch if the power supply is taxed.
When the HR20 (or receiver) is trying to change channels (to one that’s on another LNB/Sat), it has to drive enough amperage to cause mechanical switches to flip. If the resistance of the wiring and MS’s is high enough, one could imagine that the power supply in that receiver would fluctuate as it momentarily tries to deal with the signal infrastructure. This would be at the detriment of the rest of the DVR (i.e. computer) in that it would not have a stable source of power.

I would guess that some of the issues we’ve experienced with the HR20’s could be related to heat and / or power supply stress. Ever since I added the powered MS, the HR20 has been a lot better behaved .

Again, one can not generalize to every unit/install, but the manufacturing variability in a cheap power supply coupled with the huge variability in installs would lead me to believe that in many cases, getting stable switching and LNB power would be an issue. 
Judging from some of the responses and my own experience, it looks like we are accumulating some data to support that.


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## JonFo (Aug 19, 2006)

One thing to look at with respect to all this is the types of switches used in the various installs.

Read this little blurb about the types of multiswitches available and remember that there is already one type A multiswitch in the AT9 dish. Couple that with another Type A, the Zimwell 6x8, and you have *TWO *unpowered multiswitches plus any losses from cable runs, etc. to deal with.

*[A]* Non-Powered mechanical multi-switch - Cheapest in price. Has mechanical switching mechanism that is controlled by the power coming off of the DirectTV receiver. The DirectTV receiver changes voltages on the line depending on which transponder group it wants to look at. This multiswitch uses that voltage to move the switch.

*(B)* Powered mechanical multi-switch* - Mid range in price. Has a mechanical switching mechanism. It uses the voltage changes from the DTV receiver to determine what it should look at, but uses it's own external power to control the switch. Example of these are Channel Master and Terk multiswitches.

*[C]* Powered solid state multi-switch* - Most expensive. Completely solid state-no moving parts. Reads the voltage changes from the DirectTV receiver and electronically routes the signal to the correct LNB. Examples of these are Spauns, Trunkline, JVI.
*There are variations of * and [C] which include signal amplification.*​*

I experienced many 771 type issues early on, after the AT9 dish and the WB68 were installed, however, they totally went away when I added a class C multiswitch to the mix. Never seen a 771 in the last two weeks.

This is why I recommend using at least the power locker if using the WB68, or preferably, replacing it with a class C MS (Spaun) or next best, a Class B MS (the Zimwell WB616)

I also find that the switching speeds of a class C are a welcome feature, and possibly yet another contributor to stability. If the code in the DVR's or receivers is expecting a certain latency in switching, and the infrastructure is actually slower than that threshold, then again that could be a source of issues.*


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcatgt said:


> Earl...it's been in use since I got the 5LNB installed 2 months ago!! As far as I can tell, I have no problems.


It will work fine until you want to tune into an HD stations on the KA sats as the Terk can't talk to the KA sats.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Starrbuck said:


> Would the older receivers still work with the Terk if you wired it up along with the WB68 as in the first post of this thread?


I have the WB68 connected to the dish and then a Terk BMS58 cascaded from four outputs on the WB68 - H20 and HR20 connected to three of the remaining outputs from the WB68, three "old" receivers connected to the BMS58. Works perfectly, have not seen any problems at all so far.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

texasbrit said:


> I have the WB68 connected to the dish and then a Terk BMS58 cascaded from four outputs on the WB68 - H20 and HR20 connected to three of the remaining outputs from the WB68, three "old" receivers connected to the BMS58. Works perfectly, have not seen any problems at all so far.


Okay... that is different... I didn't see that in your original posts.

Yes, that setup will work fine, as it is very similar to what I have been using for a year now.


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## mooniac (Sep 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Zinwell also makes a good switch.
> http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=02&CAT=&PROD=WB616
> 
> little cheaper then the Spaun.
> ...


I'm not sure I understand this stuff so please be patient  I have an AT-9 dish and 2 HR-20's cabled directly to the MS in the dish (cables from the dish go directly to the receivers through a grounding block). If I wanted to try to insert power, can I use this without adding another multiswitch? If so, can I just take the 4 cables from the grounding block and go to the power inserter and then out to the 2 receivers? The pdf looks like you need to know which line from the dish is which, is that true?

Thanks

Oops, I meant to put this on the one that showed the link to the power inserter, not the powered MS. http://www.sonorastore.com/510.html


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> It will work fine until you want to tune into an HD stations on the KA sats as the Terk can't talk to the KA sats.


Well, from what I understand the local HD channels use the new 99 and 103 KA sats. I receive all local HD channels perfectly with no issues...I'm failing to understand why my setup should not work when it does...


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

mooniac said:


> The pdf looks like you need to know which line from the dish is which, is that true?


It's the relationship between the multiswitch inputs and the power inserter that are important and are both marked. The dish to power inserter cable relationships are totally unimportant.


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## mooniac (Sep 28, 2006)

greywolf said:


> It's the relationship between the multiswitch inputs and the power inserter that are important and are both marked. The dish to power inserter cable relationships are totally unimportant.


Thanks for the clarification, do you know if I can use the power inserter without a multiswitch?


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## mpiscitello (Oct 24, 2006)

mooniac said:


> Thanks for the clarification, do you know if I can use the power inserter without a multiswitch?


No - you have to have a multiswitch when using the power inserter.


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## mooniac (Sep 28, 2006)

mpiscitello said:


> No - you have to have a multiswitch when using the power inserter.


Thanks for clearing that up for me.


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## delongboy (Sep 6, 2005)

paulman182 said:


> I haven't had any problems, but the possibility of less stress on the receivers makes the Sonora very attractive to me. My boxes all run at the high side of the normal temperature range.
> 
> I do have a fairly long run. Thanks for the info!


What is the normal temp range for the HR20? I have 2 HR20's and a H20 running off a Zimwell 6x8. I checked the temp's on the HR20's and one is 125 the other 127. Is this high or normal? I have been having reception problems on the local hd's in bad weather and just had a dtv tech out yesterday to readjust my dish. So far it seems better but the weather hasn't been that bad.


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## avatar230 (Oct 18, 2006)

delongboy said:


> What is the normal temp range for the HR20? I have 2 HR20's and a H20 running off a Zimwell 6x8. I checked the temp's on the HR20's and one is 125 the other 127. Is this high or normal? I have been having reception problems on the local hd's in bad weather and just had a dtv tech out yesterday to readjust my dish. So far it seems better but the weather hasn't been that bad.


This is totally unofficial, but 120-131º seems to be the accepted "normal" range. Mine usually runs around 127º as well.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

127 has been what both of my units have been at since day one (everytime I check).


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## delongboy (Sep 6, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 127 has been what both of my units have been at since day one (everytime I check).


So if the re-adjustment of my dish has fixed my bad weather signal loss there is really no need for me to use one of these power boosters, correct?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

The power booster is really only needed (if you want to try it) if:

1) You are getting the 771 error
2) You are getting signal on only even or only odd transponders
3) Some other signal related issue. 

and you know your LNB is ok. 

Bad weather/rain fade doesn't count. We're talking signal problem on a perfectly aligned dish in perfect weather.


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## Marshall (Aug 27, 2003)

Got my HR20 last week and they installed it without replacing my old 4X8 powered multiswitch. Everything was working ok, no errors. So after getting educated reading these boards, I called up D* and had them install the proper 6X8 switch.

Now I get the searching for satellite error 771. Funny thing, the picture comes in ok and I still get the error on top of it. It is intermittent. Also, I only get it on MPEG4 locals and usually when I am switching to the locals from the other channels rather then from 1 local to another.

In all cases the picture comes in clear. My signal strength is 90 plus. I have 3 tivos and the HR20. All cable runs are less then 50 feet.

It seems like the receiver doesn't know it did the switch, so it displays the 771 message. Any ideas? I am assuming that the 4X8 switch damaged my receiver.

I put the old 4X8 switch back and now it is working properly. I ordered a sonora power inserter and will try that with the 6X8. After that I will replace the HR20 if I have to.

One final thing. I have an ESATA drive hooked up which makes it easy to swap out units and not lose my recordings. The only negative is that the new unit needs to download a recent version of the software before it recognizes the ESATA drive. I learned that when I first installed the HR20.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Marshall said:


> Got my HR20 last week and they installed it without replacing my old 4X8 powered multiswitch. Everything was working ok, no errors. So after getting educated reading these boards, I called up D* and had them install the proper 6X8 switch.
> 
> Now I get the searching for satellite error 771. Funny thing, the picture comes in ok and I still get the error on top of it. It is intermittent. Also, I only get it on MPEG4 locals and usually when I am switching to the locals from the other channels rather then from 1 local to another.
> 
> ...


Actually you could use the 4x8 switch you have now with the WB68. Take 4 of the outputs off the WB68 into your 4x8. Now you run cables from it's outputs to your Tivo's. Hook your HR20 directly up to the 6x8. This is what the OP did. The key is that any KA capable receiver (HR20 or H20) needs to be connected thru the 6x8. Older receivers like the Tivo's can go off the other switch. And this will get the power going to the dish.


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## mangust (Oct 10, 2006)

Over at DirecTV forums there is a post by greywolf suggesting an easy check for sufficient power. Basically you check if you get channel banners on channels 490 thru 494. If you do, there is sufficient power. Otherwise, you need to add a power inserter.
What do the experts here think?


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## avatar230 (Oct 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Actually you could use the 4x8 switch you have now with the WB68. Take 4 of the outputs off the WB68 into your 4x8. Now you run cables from it's outputs to your Tivo's. Hook your HR20 directly up to the 6x8. This is what the OP did. The key is that any KA capable receiver (HR20 or H20) needs to be connected thru the 6x8. Older receivers like the Tivo's can go off the other switch. And this will get the power going to the dish.


I only have 4 lines total going into my apartment, and that's all I ever expect to have (at this location anyhow), so I skipped the WB68 and am running the drops directly out of the dish as it has a "built in multiswitch." Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but that multiswitch _does_ send the KA's correctly, right? If I'm never adding more lines, is there any benefit to putting the WB68 downstream of the dish?


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## JessyDawg (Oct 13, 2006)

Forgive me, but I'm confused. Prior to my AT9 being installed, I had the 3LNB. When the 3LNB was installed, they ran a red wire into my attic (coming off the dish), and it's connected to an AC/DC converter type of thing which is plugged into an electrical outlet. That wire and plug continue to be there now that I have the AT9, and although I've never actually crawled across the insulation and joists to verify that it is connected to the AT9, I guess I'm assuming that it is. The plug itself has an LED on it, which is always illuminated. All of that having been said, my question is this: Since I have a Zinwell 6x8 multiswitch, and one of the things that the multiswitch feeds is an HR-20, what exactly is sending power to what, or, is drawing power? Thanks in advance for being kind to the ignorant.
-JD


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

avatar230 said:


> I only have 4 lines total going into my apartment, and that's all I ever expect to have (at this location anyhow), so I skipped the WB68 and am running the drops directly out of the dish as it has a "built in multiswitch." Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but that multiswitch _does_ send the KA's correctly, right? If I'm never adding more lines, is there any benefit to putting the WB68 downstream of the dish?


If all you have is 4 tuners and you'll never have more then that then no, you don't need the WB68. I'd still get one though just in case since it's free with your install.


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> It will work fine until you want to tune into an HD stations on the KA sats as the Terk can't talk to the KA sats.


Sorry to bore you on this subject but I'm really getting alot of run around on this subject. On this forum everyone says that the Zinwell 6x8 is the only (low end passive) multiswitch that should be used cuz D* installs it for free. I have been using the Terk 5x8 since i had my 3 LNB and it works great with the new AT9 Dish. I have called D* and spoke to 2 technicians and they have told me that there is no technical difference as far as how they handle the Ka/Ku frequencies. I receive all my channels just fine, never experienced a 771 signal, etc.. So, to say the Terk 5x8 will "not" work or is not compatible or will not "talk" to the Ka sats is hogswash....


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcatgt said:


> Sorry to bore you on this subject but I'm really getting alot of run around on this subject. On this forum everyone says that the Zinwell 6x8 is the only (low end passive) multiswitch that should be used cuz D* installs it for free. I have been using the Terk 5x8 since i had my 3 LNB and it works great with the new AT9 Dish. I have called D* and spoke to 2 technicians and they have told me that there is no technical difference as far as how they handle the Ka/Ku frequencies. I receive all my channels just fine, never experienced a 771 signal, etc.. So, to say the Terk 5x8 will "not" work or is not compatible or will not "talk" to the Ka sats is hogswash....


Sorry but no, it will not work with the KA signals. If you don't currently get any MPEG4 channels on 99 or 103 then your old Terk is fine. But once there are MPEG4 channels available to you then you need that Zinwell.

FYI calling a CSR on D* isn't going to get you any reliable information.


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Sorry but no, it will not work with the KA signals. If you don't currently get any MPEG4 channels on 99 or 103 then your old Terk is fine. But once there are MPEG4 channels available to you then you need that Zinwell.
> 
> FYI calling a CSR on D* isn't going to get you any reliable information.


So are you saying the local HD channels (from D*) are in MPEG4 Ka signal (250-750mhz)?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcatgt said:


> So are you saying the local HD channels (from D*) are in MPEG4 Ka signal (250-750mhz)?


Yes. Only exception are the New York and LA HD distants which are still on MPEG2 but they will be going away soon enough.

ALL new HD is in MPEG4 on the KA sats. Right now that is only HD locals and the RSN's in HD. Both new sats going up next year are for national HD and more HD locals, all in MPEG4. Within a year to 18 months, if all goes as planned, all HD on DirecTV will be in MPEG4 and on the KA sats. It's been the plan now for a couple years and so far they are pretty close to on schedule, barring sat launch delays.

Not sure why this whole switch thing is a big deal for you anyway. The Zinwell 6x8 is free with install and you can cascade your current Terk off of it so long as only non-MPEG4 receivers are plugged into it. Any HR20's or H20's need to be directly connected to the Zinwell. There is also a powered Zinwell 6x16 out and other companies may be coming out with KA capable switches soon.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> There is also a powered Zinwell 6x16 out and other companies may be coming out with KA capable switches soon.


Spaun also has one available: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=WBS41202NF , but it does not have Flex ports for the 72.5/95 slots.

The Zinwell WB616 is working great for me.


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Yes. Only exception are the New York and LA HD distants which are still on MPEG2 but they will be going away soon enough.
> 
> ALL new HD is in MPEG4 on the KA sats. Right now that is only HD locals and the RSN's in HD. Both new sats going up next year are for national HD and more HD locals, all in MPEG4. Within a year to 18 months, if all goes as planned, all HD on DirecTV will be in MPEG4 and on the KA sats. It's been the plan now for a couple years and so far they are pretty close to on schedule, barring sat launch delays.
> 
> Not sure why this whole switch thing is a big deal for you anyway. The Zinwell 6x8 is free with install and you can cascade your current Terk off of it so long as only non-MPEG4 receivers are plugged into it. Any HR20's or H20's need to be directly connected to the Zinwell. There is also a powered Zinwell 6x16 out and other companies may be coming out with KA capable switches soon.


It's only a big deal because you say that it will not work when in actuality it does work with the new Ka sats...I receive my local HD channels just fine which are on the new Ka sats.

the reason I think it may work is because of the b-band converters..but then if 250-750mhz can't pass throught the Terk 5x8 then my idea is shot to hell...

B-Band Converter: The HR20 receiver includes two SUP-2400 B-Band Converters, which must be installed on the receiver. It has a threaded male F connector, and should be connected to the Satellite In coaxial jack on the back of the receiver. The converter also has a female coaxial input to receive the signal from the satellite dish. This converter up-converts the satellite signal transmitted in the Ka-band (250-750 MHz) into a 1650-2150 MHz useable signal.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcatgt said:


> It's only a big deal because you say that it will not work when in actuality it does work with the new Ka sats...I receive my local HD channels just fine which are on the new Ka sats.
> 
> the reason I think it may work is because of the b-band converters..but then if 250-750mhz can't pass throught the Terk 5x8 then my idea is shot to hell...
> 
> B-Band Converter: The HR20 receiver includes two SUP-2400 B-Band Converters, which must be installed on the receiver. It has a threaded male F connector, and should be connected to the Satellite In coaxial jack on the back of the receiver. The converter also has a female coaxial input to receive the signal from the satellite dish. This converter up-converts the satellite signal transmitted in the Ka-band (250-750 MHz) into a 1650-2150 MHz useable signal.


All I can say is what I have read and seen. The B-Band converters are not needed now but will be with the 2 new sats next year.

As for your HD locals, what market are you in and what channels do you tune in to? Are they in the 80s?

As to your Terk, you have a link to it's specs on a web site? Perhaps it actually is wideband cabable.


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> All I can say is what I have read and seen. The B-Band converters are not needed now but will be with the 2 new sats next year.
> 
> As for your HD locals, what market are you in and what channels do you tune in to? Are they in the 80s?
> 
> As to your Terk, you have a link to it's specs on a web site? Perhaps it actually is wideband cabable.


I tune to my local HD channels on their respective local channels..4,5,7,9,20 in the Washington, DC market

Terk 5x8 Specs

• Input frequency range: 950- 2150 MHz, 54- 806 MHz (UHF/VHF) 
• Output Frequency Range: 54- 2150 MHz (Each Output) 
• Insertion Loss: -5db 54- 806 MHz, 0db 950- 1750 MHz, -2dB 1751-2150 MHz 
• Cross Polar Isolation: 30dB min 
• Current Consumption: 60mA 
• Power Adaptor: 120 VAC 60Hz Input, 24 VOC 1A Output 
• 22KHz Tone Output: 22 + 4 KHz continuous, 650 + 300 mVp-p 
• Multiswitch comes with power supply adpater, however you will need to supply your own coax cable to connect the adapter to the multiswitch*

Zinwell 6x8 Specs

Multiswitch is passive, powered only by the connected satellite receivers. 
• Wideband frequency multiswitch: 250-750 Mhz, 950-1450 Mhz, 1650-2150 Mhz 
• To be used with AT9 Ku/Ka DIRECTV satellite dish 
• No external power required - power to operate switch is dervived from the receiver 
• Do not put any terminator on any unused input/output ports of this switch 
• Works with all DirecTV receivers and dishes

Unless we are being lied to by D* and the new local HD are actually MPEG2!!


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## Bad Rex (Sep 25, 2006)

Interesting thesis.

I've been averaging about a problem a week with my HR20 -- be it "frozen recording" or unable to pause certain channels or a rare lock-up. I've just been assuming it was related to hdmi but dish power has got me thinking. I'm probably in a unique situation for experimenting here because my lines from the HR20 go to two different dishes. (Maybe all the problems are with the dish on the longer run.) Unfortunately, as far as I know there is no way to tell which line a recording came from. Anyone know of a way to determine this?


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## laxcoach (Dec 7, 2005)

mcatgt said:


> Sorry to bore you on this subject but I'm really getting alot of run around on this subject. On this forum everyone says that the Zinwell 6x8 is the only (low end passive) multiswitch that should be used cuz D* installs it for free. I have been using the Terk 5x8 since i had my 3 LNB and it works great with the new AT9 Dish. I have called D* and spoke to 2 technicians and they have told me that there is no technical difference as far as how they handle the Ka/Ku frequencies. I receive all my channels just fine, never experienced a 771 signal, etc.. So, to say the Terk 5x8 will "not" work or is not compatible or will not "talk" to the Ka sats is hogswash....


My experience was that it will work until you have 2 separate STBs tuning into the HD locals. If you only have one STB that gets the local HDs, you may be ok. My 1st HR20 worked fine until I got the 2nd one.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcatgt said:


> Unless we are being lied to by D* and the new local HD are actually MPEG2!!


Actually, being MPEG2 or MPEG4 doesn't have anything to do with it. It's just that DirecTV has chosen to only have MPEG4 channels on the KA sats. There is nothing technically preventing them from putting MPEG2 on them.


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

laxcoach said:


> My experience was that it will work until you have 2 separate STBs tuning into the HD locals. If you only have one STB that gets the local HDs, you may be ok. My 1st HR20 worked fine until I got the 2nd one.


By STB are you referring to an HR20 or another MPEG4 Receiver? Sorry, just not sure what STB stands for.. anyway.. I have 2 HR20's and both receive local HD at the same time.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

STB is a single receiver.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

I believe that with the current Ka satellites you get a 1650-2150 MHz signal. The D10 and 11 satellites to be launched next year apparently will use a different frequency (still Ka-band) which results in the 250-750 MHz output from the LNB. This is why you can get locals with an older switch (and without the BBC). All that will change when the new satellites come online.

STB = Set Top Box


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## kay (Nov 27, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What is the internal temperature reading (based on the System information screen), for your HR20.
> 
> Your HR20 should not be too hot, that you can't put your hand on it.


Too lazy to check, but I beleive last time I looked I was around 110-120F internal, which is fairly warm to the touch. It rarely gets burning hot, but it's been toasty before. No major problems at all with the box.


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## mrshermanoaks (Aug 27, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Yes. Only exception are the New York and LA HD distants which are still on MPEG2 but they will be going away soon enough.


Sorry, pulling slightly off-topic, but is this true? You're referring to the 380-389 channels?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mrshermanoaks said:


> Sorry, pulling slightly off-topic, but is this true? You're referring to the 380-389 channels?


380-389 are SD.

LA and NY DNS/locals in HD are in the 80s and are MPEG2. Soon these will be shut down whenever DirecTV feels enough users have MPEG4 receivers, sometime next year most likely after the new sats are up and running. ALL HD will be in MPEG4 only soon enough. That's why the rollout of the HR20 is so important to DirecTV because old HD receivers such as the HR10 HD Tivo will no longer get any HD from the satellite (OTA will still work).


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## mcatgt (Oct 31, 2006)

bobnielsen said:


> I believe that with the current Ka satellites you get a 1650-2150 MHz signal. The D10 and 11 satellites to be launched next year apparently will use a different frequency (still Ka-band) which results in the 250-750 MHz output from the LNB. This is why you can get locals with an older switch (and without the BBC). All that will change when the new satellites come online.
> 
> STB = Set Top Box


now that's some quality info!.. thanks bob. I knew there had to be a logical explanation for this issue.


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## mrshermanoaks (Aug 27, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> 380-389 are SD.
> 
> LA and NY DNS/locals in HD are in the 80s and are MPEG2. Soon these will be shut down whenever DirecTV feels enough users have MPEG4 receivers, sometime next year most likely after the new sats are up and running. ALL HD will be in MPEG4 only soon enough. That's why the rollout of the HR20 is so important to DirecTV because old HD receivers such as the HR10 HD Tivo will no longer get any HD from the satellite (OTA will still work).


OK, thanks for that explanation. I always wondered what the lineup in the 80s was for.


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## Schyler (Sep 8, 2006)

Could a long cable run stress/damage an HR20 even if you're not receiving any error messages?


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## steve0212 (Oct 23, 2006)

I have seen several post stating that you were going to buy a Sonora. I am curious, did it solve your problem? I am debating whether or not to buy one. My dish is on my roof of a two story and the WB68 is in the basement.

Also, does it matter where I put the inserter? Should I put it in the attic right where the wires come through or is it OK to put it in the basement (near the end of the cable run)?


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## steve0212 (Oct 23, 2006)

I looked on my HR20 and checked the tranceivers. For the first statellite, all signals are 90 or above. I alos checked channels 490-494 as mentioned in another post and all worked fine. I also checked the temp of my HR20 and it was 124. Do I need to add the Sonora? I did have a powered MS before the install of the latest dish when they put in the 6x8.

Believe me - if you think it will help, I will do it. I am desparate to get this DVR working.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Bottom line... the Dish needs power to do it's job.

Dependent on the overal setup.... the Sonora can help...
Especially if now if you have a passive switch, and extra feeds...


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Anyone know when we can expect to see Spawn or another vendor come out with a class C multi switch?



I am ready -- knock wood - for a 5LNB dish but not until we have a viable higher output multiswitch.

It's been several months since the 5LNB roll out - what is up with the vendors other than Zinwell that none have a better multiswitch available yet. :icon_lame


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## pgiralt (Oct 12, 2006)

S. DiThomas said:


> It's been several months since the 5LNB roll out - what is up with the vendors other than Zinwell that none have a better multiswitch available yet. :icon_lame


Maybe they're waiting until FTM is available? Just a guess.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

S. DiThomas said:


> Anyone know when we can expect to see Spawn or another vendor come out with a class C multi switch?
> 
> I am ready -- knock wood - for a 5LNB dish but not until we have a viable higher output multiswitch.
> 
> It's been several months since the 5LNB roll out - what is up with the vendors other than Zinwell that none have a better multiswitch available yet. :icon_lame


Same here... just got 2 new mpeg4 locals here... would like to have the new dish installed in different location.. just hopeing for ota soon then I can wait till new sats go up to get new dish.. hr20 is stable here so far, just afraid to mess that up..


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## psubill78 (Nov 22, 2006)

I recently got installed with the new slimline dish, and got the Zinwell 6x8 MS.... since this guy isn't powered, can I use my existing powered zinwell 4x8 MS that I had on my phase 3 dish in parallel with the 6x8 guy (similiar to how is described in the first post of this thread?)

my non-mpeg 4 boxes would go thru the older 4x8, and the HR20 and other mpeg4 boxes would go directly into the 6x8. 

Does the power pass thru the 6x8?

thanks


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

psubill78 said:


> I recently got installed with the new slimline dish, and got the Zinwell 6x8 MS.... since this guy isn't powered, can I use my existing powered zinwell 4x8 MS that I had on my phase 3 dish in parallel with the 6x8 guy (similiar to how is described in the first post of this thread?)
> 
> my non-mpeg 4 boxes would go thru the older 4x8, and the HR20 and other mpeg4 boxes would go directly into the 6x8.
> 
> ...


jonfo:

Thanks for the idea. :biggrin: Unfortunately I need at least 10 HD ready DTV Local connections for eventually 3 HR20's or the equivalent and 4 other HD receivers

I also have one box (a 50" cabinet) that has exactly enough room left for one large muti-switch and no more. A Spawn is a perfect fit and I don't care to clutter my closet with any switches outside the box given what I paid for the install and 16 DTV and 8 OTA wires already comming into it that are neatly distributed throughout the house from it.

psubill:

Check out jonfo's thread link. It seems a good powered mutiswitch should power the whole configuration. Right?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

S. DiThomas said:


> jonfo:
> 
> Thanks for the idea. :biggrin: Unfortunately I need at least 10 HD ready DTV Local connections for eventually 3 HR20's or the equivalent and 4 other HD receivers
> 
> ...


When do you need all these connections?

As hopefully in Q1 of 2007 we should have the FTM solution, where you will only need to run 1 line to the compatible receivers... and can also use "regular" cable splitters in the process.


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## Meklos (Nov 7, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> When do you need all these connections?
> 
> As hopefully in Q1 of 2007 we should have the FTM solution, where you will only need to run 1 line to the compatible receivers... and can also use "regular" cable splitters in the process.


Earl, what exactly will be involved in the FTM conversion? I just had a Slimline, WB68 and HR20 installed. What components will have to be changed out?


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

I read somewhere the FTM could only serve a limited number of receivers.


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> When do you need all these connections?
> 
> As hopefully in Q1 of 2007 we should have the FTM solution, where you will only need to run 1 line to the compatible receivers... and can also use "regular" cable splitters in the process.


Earl:

My home is 5 bedrooms plus two offices, one dedicated theater, a family room with partial theater etc. Here is the basic layout and why I need so many connections:

1) Master bed and bath suite 2 media center D connections (pending a real AV system and build out) and a smaller corner niche with one D* connection (HR20 #2) and a link to the master bath via balun and cat5e for a 2nd HDTV over the tub/main bathroom area. That is a total of 3 D* connections - all are HD compatable (so 3 HD) (active);

2) Two Kids rooms - each with one D* connection for HD/other (so 2 HD) (kids pending);

3) Wife's office - one D* HD (so 1 HD) (active);

4) My office - one D* HD (so 1 HD) (pending purchase);

5) Theater Room - two D* HD connections for projector and D* recorder (so 2 HD) (pending construction);

6) Guest Room - one D* HD connection (active);

7) Family Room - two D* HD connections (to HR 20 #1) (active);

Active connection total right now is 5 all HD
Active future connections are 6 all also HD
So at a minimum I need 11 active and HD capable connections. I didn't even mention all of the rooms also have networking and OTA connections pre-installed. I try to plan for the future when building... This time I am very glad I did.

It's a big house and I love my TVs. :glasses: Hence the Spawn I have right now works perfectly and I have one open connection for the Garage or Patio still not set up.


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## psubill78 (Nov 22, 2006)

Can anyone answer my question above?

If I use my power zinwell after my 6x8, will the power pass thru the 6x8 to the dish?

I don't want to fry any gear


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## chewwy420 (Nov 28, 2005)

psubill78 said:


> Can anyone answer my question above?
> 
> If I use my power zinwell after my 6x8, will the power pass thru the 6x8 to the dish?
> 
> I don't want to fry any gear


Yes! Works great!


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## psubill78 (Nov 22, 2006)

Can I get away with just running one wire from my 4x8 powered to the 6x8? Or does it need to be all 4.

Only looking to use this (temporarily) for power injection... not running any receiver's off it.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Bottom line... the Dish needs power to do it's job.
> 
> Dependent on the overal setup.... the Sonora can help...
> Especially if now if you have a passive switch, and extra feeds...


Got my locker/power inserter installed.. moved the wb68 inside as well. Be careful not to overtighten the screws you use to mount the sonora.. the side of the mounting slot WILL break off.

For education.. I went with this solution solely because I know my cable run from switch to dish is long.. I wanted to head off any problems at the pass. I was getting a few 771 errors, we'll see if those go away now. channel changes do seem to be a bit faster.. my perception, YMMV.


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## chewwy420 (Nov 28, 2005)

psubill78 said:


> Can I get away with just running one wire from my 4x8 powered to the 6x8? Or does it need to be all 4.
> 
> Only looking to use this (temporarily) for power injection... not running any receiver's off it.


Should use all 4...


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Neil Derryberry said:


> Got my locker/power inserter installed.. moved the wb68 inside as well. Be careful not to overtighten the screws you use to mount the sonora.. the side of the mounting slot WILL break off.
> 
> For education.. I went with this solution solely because I know my cable run from switch to dish is long.. I wanted to head off any problems at the pass. I was getting a few 771 errors, we'll see if those go away now. channel changes do seem to be a bit faster.. my perception, YMMV.


Hey Neil, I'm about to order this and just want to confirm your setup.

AT9 > Sonora > WB68 > receivers

and you only have a single WB68.


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## bjterp00 (Jan 7, 2007)

I too have the intermittent 771 issues on my HD channels, usually on my HD locals which are delivered via D*, not OTA.

Another thread suggests that defective b-band converters could be the issue. Is this possible? Would it be worth exploring swapping out the b-band converters (or taking them out for a while) to see if the issues go away before investigating power options?


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## MIMOTech (Sep 11, 2006)

A probable cause for the 771 message is that there may be excessive voltage drop that can be caused by several conditions, such as not haveing a solid copper center conductor coax, or connector water leakage. if a connector leaks, the corrosion can cause oxides of salts to occure, combine that with water and you have something close to a short. Both these conditions can exits at the same time. Copper loss and corrosion. The corrosion can and does cause problems with the RF portion of the signal. At 900 Mhz to 2.2 GHz this will cause major loss. one thing you have to remember is that the switching threshold of the swith in the 5 LNB dish has to be maintained and if it drops below that threshold then the switch will not do its job. Rememter that when you use the WB68 with 5 LNB dish, you are running cascaded swithches. My own dish is mounted 168 feet in back of my house and I use High quality coax with solid copper core center conductors and i experiance no problems. from the WB68 switch in my basement to the receivers is a maximum of 40 feet of cable.


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## ramcm7 (Aug 1, 2002)

JonFo said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> As most HR20 users, I too have battled a long series of issues with this box, but I wanted to share a thesis (need more data points to be conclusive) that part of the issues many of us have had relates to getting the cleanest signals to and from the dish.
> 
> ...


I have a powered Terk BMS 58 gathering dust from before I added the 95 sat. Could I sub that into this setup instead? I have some long runs that may be the cause of some issues.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

ramcm7 said:


> I have a powered Terk BMS 58 gathering dust from before I added the 95 sat. Could I sub that into this setup instead? I have some long runs that may be the cause of some issues.


Yes, this would be similar to my setup, and I have had virtually no problems with the HR20 since November - (not a single lockup, BSOD, 771, reset required etc).
I have the WB68 connected via four cables to the dish, then four of the outputs of the WB68 connected to the four inputs of my Terk 5x8. This gives me the four remaining outputs from the WB68, I use three of them for my H20 and HR20, and eight outputs from the Terk for "old" receivers, I use four of them. 
So the Terk powered multiswitch provides signalling voltage and tone. 
My cable runs are about 70 feet from the dish to the WB68, and then up to 100 ft back to the receivers.


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

1. What voltages should be seen at the dish?
2. I have three llines comming through my attic and a much shorter line directly to my HR20.

Can I provide power to those three lines (as described previously) to good effect? I am running an HR 20 and an HR 10. I get errors on the HR 10 when Ihave two lines attached (multiswitch not working properly etc). Either of the two works fine on the HR 10 when set up as a single feed.

Joel


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

125-127 is also my operating temp range as well...I've never actually seen it above 127 yet....my runs are all relatively short, and all are SCC(Solid Copper Core) RG6. I would never run anything less with either the H20 or HR20 boxes due to the new signal requirements....its a fools errand for anyone running inferior cabling....


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

mpiscitello said:


> Mine is connected in the order you describe.
> 
> Not necessarily a "trick" but more something to be aware of - after I spent 3 hours making cables, etc. to make everything look neat with the WB68 and Sonora HRPID1422, I fired up my receivers and got basically the 771 error - but yet was still getting some signals on a few transponders. After basically yelling at whoever would listen (it was late when I finished) I realized you have to ensure you wire from the inserter to the switch as follows:
> 20V to 18V
> ...


Thanks, I will need this info.

I just Bought the Sonora HRPID1422 to try to get the temp down a bit. I bought a WB68 for future use.

I need Mr. Wizard to help me understand this. If I can take any 2 cables from the dish and use them on my HR20, then why can't I hook just 2 up through my Sonora HRPID1422? Why does it require all 4?


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

armophob said:


> If I can take any 2 cables from the dish and use them on my HR20, then why can't I hook just 2 up through my Sonora HRPID1422? Why does it require all 4?


When you feed a multiswitch, all possible combinations of signal need to be available simultaneously at the multiswitch inputs. There are four such combinations sent by a receiver.
1. 13 V, no tone (odd transponders on 101)
2. 18 V, no tone (even transponders on 101)
3. 13 V, 22KHz tone (odd transponders on 119)
4. 18 V, 22KHz tone (even transponders on 110/119)

(With the AT9, you also have the feeds from 99 and 103, but they are incorporated into the above four request possibilities.)

So a multiswitch connected to a multi-satellite dish MUST have one of it's inputs locked to each of those four combinations at all times.

You can connect multiple receivers to the multiswitch. Each one is capable of sending any one of the four possible request signals. The multiswitch looks at the request coming from the receiver, and cross-connects it to the applicable input from the dish. If you don't have all four combinations from the dish, you won't be able to satisfy the receiver's request.

The same basic issue is involved when you use the power inserter. It locks a particular coax from the dish to one of those combinations. Therefore, in order to use the power inserter you have to feed all 4 lines to a multiswitch, and feed your receivers from the multiswitch.

Carl


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

So the power inserter/ multi-switch actually filters out the receivers requests.
Got it. Makes sense. Thanks.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

armophob said:


> So the power inserter/ multi-switch actually filters out the receivers requests.
> Got it. Makes sense. Thanks.


Well, kind of but not really.

Put the power inserter on and lock a cable to 18 volts DC. Then have your receiver put 13 volts DC on that same cable. What are you going to see at the other end? 18 volts. It's locked there and there is no way the receiver can reduce that 18 volts.

Does that help?

Carl


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

That makes me think that I am not going to be able to use the Sonora alone. I will have to hook the WB68 between the Sonora and the receiver to "remodulate" the signals.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

armophob said:


> That makes me think that I am not going to be able to use the Sonora alone. I will have to hook the WB68 between the Sonora and the receiver to "remodulate" the signals.


Yes, that is exactly what you need to do.

Dish <--> Sonora <--> Sat 1, 13 WB68 Out 1 <--> Receiver
Dish <--> Sonora <--> Sat 1, 18 WB68 Out 2
Dish <--> Sonora <--> Sat 2, 13 WB68 Out 3
Dish <--> Sonora <--> Sat 2, 18 WB68 Out 4
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .WB68 Out 5
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .WB68 Out 6
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .WB68 Out 7
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .WB68 Out 8

Carl


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Thanks again. I will try it out tomorrow.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

I'm still on a 3-LNB dish (HD Locals aren't yet available in the Rochester NY DMA).
My 5 sat boxes (HR20, 2-H20s, 2-D10s) are connected via a Terk BMS 58 and we haven't been having any serious issues with the HR20


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Ok, hooked it all up. Everything is looking good. Dropped the internal temp on both boxes 0deg. Started at 127deg and stayed at 127deg. All is not lost though. I now have four more ports for growth.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

armophob said:


> Ok, hooked it all up. Everything is looking good. Dropped the internal temp on both boxes 0deg. Started at 127deg and stayed at 127deg. All is not lost though. I now have four more ports for growth.


Both units since the install above have dropped to 122deg steady. Alot of work for 5deg, but I feel better about it now.


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

So, is there is real big difference between using two WB68 with approrpriate spliters (my current set up) as compared to the new zinwell 16 output powered model? Woud I get higher signal strengths?


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

I ordered the sonora as well and am hoping its the magic solution to resolving my receiver's random and sporadic issues with IDK's, Black screens and freeze ups.

It should arrive by next Wednesday. I found one on eBay for $39.00 (29.99 + $9shipping).

I think the seller still has 2 left.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=260074290160


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

jorossian said:


> I ordered the sonora as well and am hoping its the magic solution to resolving my receiver's random and sporadic issues with IDK's, Black screens and freeze ups.
> 
> It should arrive by next Wednesday. I found one on eBay for $39.00 (29.99 + $9shipping).
> 
> ...


Have you read through this thread? You will need a multiswitch also (ie: WB68)


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

Yup - I already have the WB68 (I thought everyone did as it's included in the installation of the AT9 and Slimline dish)


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

jorossian said:


> Yup - I already have the WB68 (I thought everyone did as it's included in the installation of the AT9 and Slimline dish)


Guess I missed out on that freebie. I had to get mine off ebay also.


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

Call D* and let them know. They might give you a credit on your bill for the cost of the multi-switch. I know we're on our own with the power inserter but you were entitled to the WB68 as well as new lines in from the dish.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

If you're not needing more than 4 outputs on install day, they dont just automatically install a WB68 as its nots needed....


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

armophob said:


> Guess I missed out on that freebie. I had to get mine off ebay also.


Hmmm.....

This has me thinking... (smell that burnt aroma?)

armophob -

I'm assuming since you didn't use a multiswitch prior to installing the sonora, you were simply sending your sat lines directly to your 2 recievers....

What has been your experience? Have you had any problems in terms of unplayable recordings, IKOD, BSOD etc...? Was your intent in powering your dish via the Sonora based solely on lowering your receivers' internal temps?

If this is the case, I'm actually considering unplugging my WB68 and simply running the direct Sat lines to my HR20 and 2 of my non-DVR SD receivers just to see if any of my problems are directly a result of the WB68.

Please let me know how things were for you when you were running the non-WB68/Sonora setup. Concurrently, how have things changed since adding those.

Thanks in advance!

Joe


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

Armophob!


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

jorossian said:


> Hmmm.....
> 
> This has me thinking... (smell that burnt aroma?)
> 
> ...


The only issues I replicated before were the series link type software issues and such. I did get to see pinky every now and then.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

jorossian said:


> Armophob!


I can say also that I have not lost or gained anything else besides temp change. I will also say that we have had unusually low temps here in Florida during my test period. House temp is not a consideration, but possibly LMB temp may be. If that changes, I will post it here at the end of the week as things warm up.


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks

I think I'm gonna drop a receiver for a while and try running with no multi-switch feeding the HR20 and 2 SD receivers straight off the dish. Just to try...


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

jorossian said:


> Call D* and let them know. They might give you a credit on your bill for the cost of the multi-switch. I know we're on our own with the power inserter but you were entitled to the WB68 as well as new lines in from the dish.


CCarnCross was right. I called for my WB68 and they said that every installation is different. Just because my "freind" got one with his install does not mean I get one automatically. But, she assured me, I can purchase one from their online store.


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

Sorry for the miss-info


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Another update. 
Already stated this in the Cutting Edge, but since the x120 download I am back up to 127deg like before the Sonora. Outside LMB temps can't be at all involved because we are the coldest we have been all year here the last 2 days here. 
I am convinced I need to go to one of the exterior fan options discussed in other threads. I just do not like having any piece of electronic equipment to be warm to hot to the touch. I am just funny like that.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

armophob said:


> Another update.
> Already stated this in the Cutting Edge, but since the x120 download I am back up to 127deg like before the Sonora. Outside LMB temps can't be at all involved because we are the coldest we have been all year here the last 2 days here.
> I am convinced I need to go to one of the exterior fan options discussed in other threads. I just do not like having any piece of electronic equipment to be warm to hot to the touch. I am just funny like that.


I believe the fan is thermostatic.. It tries to hold~127
You could just mount it in the fridge and use rf :lol:


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

This may be a complete coincidence but since I disconnected the Zinwell WB68 and fed my HR20 directly from the Slimline dish I haven't had a problem yet.

Waaaaay too early to make a diffinitive correlation yet- only 4 days. We'll see what happens over the next week or so. I'm going to do a reboot tonight only because I want to ensure there are no problems for my superbowl party. After that though I plan on leaving the receiver be until it finally misses a recording again.


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

Interesting. Possible bad WB68's. I noticed that the WB68 does heat up. I had it mounted to a rafter in the basement. I remounted it so it would have air space behind it. I have no problems with my HR20. This probably does not mean anything, but I make sure that all unused input/ouputs on the WB68 have a plastic cover on it. (they come on the switch to protect the connections) I also put one on the OTA inputs on the HR20. Since I did that I have not had a BSB or any other problem. I was on 10b when I did this.


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## jorossian (Jan 21, 2007)

It (if there really is a difference) may have nothing to do with the wb68 itself, but fact that removing it removes a break in the cable run.


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

jorossian said:


> It (if there really is a difference) may have nothing to do with the wb68 itself, but fact that removing it removes a break in the cable run.


To remove a break, a new cable would need to be run from the dish to the receiver. Disconnecting the cables from the WB68 and connecting them with a coax connector does not eliminate a cable break.

I don't think that the WB68 is immune to defects.


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## missparker10 (Feb 15, 2007)

I am having the same 771 issue. I don't currently have that HR20 hooked up the the 5 lnb but the 3 lnb, with no multi. Why would I be having 771 issues? Since I only have the 2 connections to that antenna, I figured it might be getting enough power. I guess I am wrong about that?? Should I attach something to power the receiver itself then?

I also get an occassional 771 message to the HR20 connected to the 5 LNB. Guess that's the same power issue?? Any help would be very appreciated, as I am getting tired of these lost connections and have only had the HR20's for 2 or 3 days.

If there is a solution to try and get rid of this issue, would the best be to hook up both to the 5lnb, with the zinwell 6x8 and get the sonora power inserter?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

missparker10 said:


> I am having the same 771 issue. I don't currently have that HR20 hooked up the the 5 lnb but the 3 lnb, with no multi. Why would I be having 771 issues? Since I only have the 2 connections to that antenna, I figured it might be getting enough power. I guess I am wrong about that?? Should I attach something to power the receiver itself then?
> 
> I also get an occassional 771 message to the HR20 connected to the 5 LNB. Guess that's the same power issue?? Any help would be very appreciated, as I am getting tired of these lost connections and have only had the HR20's for 2 or 3 days.
> 
> If there is a solution to try and get rid of this issue, would the best be to hook up both to the 5lnb, with the zinwell 6x8 and get the sonora power inserter?


What kind of sat signal #'s are you getting?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

And are both sat 1 and 2 connected? More info is needed.


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## missparker10 (Feb 15, 2007)

armophob said:


> And are both sat 1 and 2 connected? More info is needed.


Sorry I didn't leave enough info.

I have both satellite's connected. My signals are:

Sat. 101 Tuner 1
95 95 96 97 95 99 95 98
95 95 96 98 97 100 96 100
95 100 96 95 97 100 97 100
95 97 96 64 98 100 96 100

Sat. 110 Tuner 1
n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 95
n/a 92 n/a 95 n/a n/a n/a n/a
all n/a
all n/a

Sat. 119 Tuner 1
all n/a
all n/a
n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 98 68 98
96 99 99 98 97 99 0 100

Sat. 101 Tuner 2
95 95 96 96 95 99 95 98
95 96 96 98 96 100 96 100
95 100 96 95 97 100 97 100
95 97 96 63 98 99 95 100

Sat. 110 Tuner 2
n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 95
n/a 92 n/a 95 n/a n/a n/a n/a
all n/a
all n/a

Sat. 119 Tuner 2
all n/a
all n/a
n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 98 69 98
96 99 99 98 96 99 0 100

It says Azimuth 230, Elevation 36, Tilt 63

The signal strength for both tuners is:

Satellite 101 : 95% Satellite 110: 95 % Satellite 119: 98 %

Shall I test the individual transponders as well or is that overkill. 

Obviously, when the signal for any tuner goes out, all numbers are at 0.

This is the DVR hooked directly up to the 3 LNB for the time being.

What else can I tell you to help?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Just the usual questions like cable length run or are there obstructions like trees that can occasionally block the dish line of site. Everything else looks great. 
Before I got too far into it, I would have D* install a 5 LMB dish for free. Then start from scratch. Then you can get all the network shows in HD off air and on.


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## missparker10 (Feb 15, 2007)

armophob said:


> Just the usual questions like cable length run or are there obstructions like trees that can occasionally block the dish line of site. Everything else looks great.
> Before I got too far into it, I would have D* install a 5 LMB dish for free. Then start from scratch. Then you can get all the network shows in HD off air and on.


I do have a 5 LNB dish up. here's why I have both a 3 and 5 LNB, as quoted from another thread:

*"It's a long story why but I'll try and keep it short. I had everything on a multiswitch with the LNB. At that time, I had 2 HR 10-250, 2 R15's and 3 just junk receivers. (Maybe 4) Only 1 HDTivo was giving me issues, sort of similar to what is happening now. I wasn't able to record 2 HD channels at once. If tried to record 2 HD's at once, I would get 1 satellite out messages. I tried numerous times for Direct tv to fix it. They must have been here 10 times. Rewiring, new LNB for the 3 LNB, new connections. Everytime the 1 HDTivo would keep getting the same messages when I tried to record 2 HD channels. They also came and installed an AT9 5 LNB, saying it might help with the HDTivo problem. Everything was multi-switched off there. It didn't help that 1 HDTivo. I could watch 2 HD at the same time, but not record 2.

After they came back again, to no avail, what I did was take just the 2 lines that were going to that HDTivo and connect them directly back up to the 3 LNB with no multi inbetween. After that it worked perfectly. Until I switched to the new HD DVR, 20-700.

Now I am having the searching for satellite message as described above.

I have a new DVR(20-700) in the back bedroom(on the 5 LNB) and in the living room(on the 3 LNB). The LR one was giving me those messages and the bedroom one wasn't so I switched them out. At that time, it looked like a receiver problem because then the LR was working perfectly and the bedroom one had the message. So I exchanged the "faulty" receiver and hooked it back into the bedroom. Thought everything was solved. Then the issue arose again in the LR. So it's not a receiver issue, I don't believe.

All cables were changed at some point during the past 6 months to a year, when I was having the problem trying to be fixed."*

The longest cable run I have is about 60 -70 feet. Tops is 80, my husband says it's 80 but I don't think so.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I am out of my element. You have so much going on I cannot keep up. I beg of another member to help make sense of using 2 dishes.


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## missparker10 (Feb 15, 2007)

No worries. Anyway, it's not an issue of the 2 dishes. I would just like to know if either of the DVR's are having that 771 issue, and my signals look good, would a power converter and proper multi-swicth be a good thing to try and see if it clears it up? I would be buying the WB68 or 16 and getting the power converter and hooking up the 2 new HR20's to the 5 LNB. I can't think of anything else that could be an issue and just wanted some opinions as to if that could be the problem.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm still sure you know much more than anyone at Direct Tv. :hurah:


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## westernamerican (Dec 14, 2006)

Man, you must be loaded with the greenstuff!


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## DMAX4FUN (Jan 22, 2007)

A tech at D* just sent me some inline power adders?? to put inline to up the power to the dish. These do NOT plug into anything but go inline (ie..split the cable) to add power somehow. He called them Bullets? He sent 2 one for each line going into my HR20. I have the problem of 771 when switching channels with 2 new wires and 5lnb dish and no OTA antenna. Tech said it was odd but not impossible that not enough power was hold the signal??

I need to cut my wires and install these, maybe tonight or tomarrow.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

DMAX4FUN said:


> A tech at D* just sent me some inline power adders?? to put inline to up the power to the dish. These do NOT plug into anything but go inline (ie..split the cable) to add power somehow. He called them Bullets? He sent 2 one for each line going into my HR20. I have the problem of 771 when switching channels with 2 new wires and 5lnb dish and no OTA antenna. Tech said it was odd but not impossible that not enough power was hold the signal??
> 
> I need to cut my wires and install these, maybe tonight or tomarrow.


He did not give you these did he?
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=78129


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## missparker10 (Feb 15, 2007)

westernamerican said:


> Man, you must be loaded with the greenstuff!


:icon_lol: Don't I wish!!!

Is it because of all the new equipment that you say that?? I've got a knack for haggling and barterting. :rolling:

I'm very curious to know about these power adders as well. Let us know what exactly they are.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

missparker10 said:


> :icon_lol: Don't I wish!!!
> 
> Is it because of all the new equipment that you say that?? I've got a knack for haggling and barterting. :rolling:
> 
> I'm very curious to know about these power adders as well. Let us know what exactly they are.


MissParker,

I'm hoping someone will come along and back me up on this. The lenghts of your cable are not the problem. I just don't think the Sonaro product and "power adders" are going to fix your problem. I'll re-read your post and try to offer some more suggestions. You do certainly have alot going on up there. I wonder and Santa and his reindeer had room to land.


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## DMAX4FUN (Jan 22, 2007)

No these boxes are 3/4"x1"x3" long. Th sticker in the box says 40-2150 inline amplifier ILA-40w. He wanted them installed in both lines as close to getting out of my house without going outside. He told me most installers carry them on their trucks. There is no power running to these except for whats in theRG6 cable.


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## missparker10 (Feb 15, 2007)

My thoughts on if they might help the problem were from reading this whole thread and some others in the forum who had been hacing 771 issues and suggested adding a powered multi- or the like. I have seen some posts where this seemed to really help the problem. But does my situation fit the parameters of what others had happen to them??

Strangely enough I have not had a single instance of this all day now, the signal going out on either tuner.


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## missparker10 (Feb 15, 2007)

DMAX4FUN said:


> No these boxes are 3/4"x1"x3" long. Th sticker in the box says 40-2150 inline amplifier ILA-40w. He wanted them installed in both lines as close to getting out of my house without going outside. He told me most installers carry them on their trucks. There is no power running to these except for whats in theRG6 cable.


Did you get them installed and if you have, have they helped??


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

missparker10 said:


> Did you get them installed and if you have, have they helped??


May I make one suggestion inspired by *veryoldschool.* Check all your connections. Tight might not be right. A cross threaded connection could appear tight but could be causing intermittent signal.


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## DMAX4FUN (Jan 22, 2007)

Got em installed but havent watched 40 minutes of tv yet. Only thing is my wife came in and I was surfing and she asked why the channels have less "down" time between them. They do seem to change faster. Could be psychological to me though. I will be gone 2 days but my wife will watch A-LOT of tv sunday and do a bunch of surfing, so if there is still a problem she will find it!!


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## CPO1 (Feb 18, 2007)

I tried to reply to the post with picture, but it would appear b/c of the url's and my newness, I cannot.
I have the SBK 5502NF and the DMK 5582 F. I have 1 HR20, and 2 HR10's, plus some other DVR's. I have not yet swapped the 3 LNB dish with the 5 LNB. I will be having my A/V installer install the Zinwell switch. My question is three fold,
Can I use my existing pieces as add ons to the zinwell, 
Will this increase my outputs from 8 to 12, and if so
Can the OTA feed still go thru the spaun.
And finally, is the Channel Vision SATBS4 (SAT-BS4) a piece that can be used at the reciever side to split the signal into 2 seperate feeds. My installer seems to think this will work. I think the Channnel master product will split the signal allowing for 2 tv's to share the same signal. He is looking into this this week, but I thought I would get the opinions from those who really know.


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## psubill78 (Nov 22, 2006)

Solid Signal just delivered by Sonora Power Inverter.

Just to validate... the wires coming off my Slimline - they can go into any ports on the Sonora, even though their direction show specific ports for the various feeds?


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## mpiscitello (Oct 24, 2006)

psubill78 said:


> Solid Signal just delivered by Sonora Power Inverter.
> 
> Just to validate... the wires coming off my Slimline - they can go into any ports on the Sonora, even though their direction show specific ports for the various feeds?


Yes - just make sure the wires from the Sonora inserter go to the WB68 multiswitch in order (20VDC to 18VDC, etc.)...


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## psubill78 (Nov 22, 2006)

mpiscitello said:


> Yes - just make sure the wires from the Sonora inserter go to the WB68 multiswitch in order (20VDC to 18VDC, etc.)...


Maybe I'm stupid, so you are saying the ports a,b,c,d going to the WB68, should go in an order other than "a" of senora to port "1" on the wb68, and b to 2, etc?


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