# Finally installed whole-house UPS



## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

The current DVR w/generator discussion reminded me to finally post this. Back in October I took the plunge and purchased a used Liebert 8 kva/6 kw UPS. I've talked about doing it many times here and I finally found a deal on ebay I couldn't refuse. After weighing several options I decided to add a new panel and spent a weekend rerouting most of the 120V circuits in my house to the new panel. Between multiple computers, DVRs, and other things I want to run when I can't run my generator, something large enough to run it all was the best option. I also wanted the option to run 240V equipment although I currently don't have anything that big hooked up to it.

Its a double-conversion UPS, 240V in/out, so it fully conditions all power sources. Great for me since we've had deep utility brownouts in the past, and the quality of the power from my generator isn't what I feel it should be. I'm using the batteries that came with it (64 gel-cell lead acid), but they are almost dead after sitting almost 2 years unused. Hopefully this spring I'll have the funds to install 16 deep-cell lead acid batteries. Way more storage capacity than I need, but the easiest and cheapest way to supply the 192V nominal that the unit needs.

This isn't mine, but it looks the same. Stands about 2 1/2 feet tall.
http://www.wcfa.com/UPS/UPStationS.jpg

Anyone else here "gone big"?


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

what is cost cost ratio of this, compared to a whole home generator system. how long do you anticipate your system to "last" during a brownout or blackout?


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

dave29 said:


> what is cost cost ratio of this, compared to a whole home generator system. how long do you anticipate your system to "last" during a brownout or blackout?


a whole home generator is on a transfer switch & Sb panel When you lose power the generator starts and the transfer switch kicks in disconnets from the Main panel so current will not feed down the outside line from the street.

His system(more Expense) is similar, He has added the battery's in his system to take Swine wave (generator factor) off his house equipment, When his power goes off the inverter kicks in and his equipment is held by batterys, Untill the Generator Cycles up and the inveter takes over again sending AC current to his equipment and floating his battery's back to a charging state 52volts (thereabouts)

The main expense is the battery's and upkeep (battery's) do not last forever. When they need to be replaced,they can only be disposed of in an eviromently safe fashion or in most states by a linsensed hardzard firm.

He bought 64 Lead aicd battey's that he will need to get rid of at a COST$$ 
Nice system


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

WestDC said:


> a whole home generator is on a transfer switch & Sb panel When you lose power the generator starts and the transfer switch kicks in disconnets from the Main panel so current will not feed down the outside line from the street.
> 
> His system(more Expense) is similar, He has added the battery's in his system to take Swine wave (generator factor) off his house equipment, When his power goes off the inverter kicks in and his equipment is held by batterys, Untill the Generator Cycles up and the inveter takes over again sending AC current to his equipment and floating his battery's back to a charging state 52volts (thereabouts)
> 
> ...


i see, so the batteries hold the power on everything until the generator kicks on.


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## SDizzle (Jan 1, 2007)

This all seems very in depth, so whether a whole house generator, or a UPS that runs on batteries, these must be wired into your electrical panel on the side of the house? And do you have to install a special panel? What type of initial cost might one expect in doing these types of "power backup" systems? Do these systems "know" immediately when power is lost, and kicks in immediately so that resets of electrical components don't happen?


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## SDizzle (Jan 1, 2007)

dave29 said:


> i see, so the batteries hold the power on everything until the generator kicks on.


So, these people have BOTH a UPS with batteries AND a generator?!?


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

SDizzle said:


> So, these people have BOTH a UPS with batteries AND a generator?!?


i think so, if i am reading it right


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

My UPS is not as large, 2500 watt, and I have it set so the generator does not start untill the battery reserve approaches 50%. No power fluctuation at all.


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## kevinwmsn (Aug 19, 2006)

They have that in the building I work in, but its a datacenter.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

dave29 said:


> what is cost cost ratio of this, compared to a whole home generator system. how long do you anticipate your system to "last" during a brownout or blackout?


What will work best for you depends on your situation. In my case, I'm way out near end of the trunk line, and then down a country road. Neighbors have stories of being w/o power for 2+ weeks after ice storms and hurricanes, and before I installed my generator we lost power for several hours monthly. I needed a long-term solution so at first I installed a whole-house genset. Lots of power, but I discovered it was expensive to run for long periods of time, and the power quality wasn't great (flickering lights...). Then I added the UPS, which can run 2/3 of the day and condition my power.

If I had to do it all over again (didn't already have the genset) I would have purchased a larger UPS and smaller generator. A large battery bank would hold me over for 90% of the outages, no generator needed at all. The smaller generator could then trickle-charge during long outages.

If you only get short outages in your area you could get by with a whole-house UPS with a small battery bank, or a portable genset.

Edit: once I add the new battery system I estimate it will last for a day or two, running TVs in the evening, fans overnight, and fridges all the time. During a brownout down to 90V the UPS doesn't need any battery input to maintain 120V output. Below that the batteries would only supplement the UPS so they could last many days.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

WestDC said:


> His system(more Expense) is similar, He has added the battery's in his system to take Swine wave (generator factor) off his house equipment, When his power goes off the inverter kicks in and his equipment is held by batterys, Untill the Generator Cycles up and the inveter takes over again sending AC current to his equipment and floating his battery's back to a charging state 52volts (thereabouts)
> 
> The main expense is the battery's and upkeep (battery's) do not last forever. When they need to be replaced,they can only be disposed of in an eviromently safe fashion or in most states by a linsensed hardzard firm.
> 
> ...


Happily all battery retailers in my state must accept lead acid batteries for recycling, free of charge. When I replace the old batteries I'm going to switch to a 16-battery wet-cell bank. Not cheap, but with low cycling and few deep discharges they should last 10 years or more.

With the new batteries I'll be able to take my genset off automatic standby. I'll let the UPS handle outages up to a day or two. I'll have almost 20 kw of available power @ 50% discharge (30 kw if I let them go to 75% discharge) so I won't need the genset to spin up 30 seconds after the power goes out. Until then, what you describe above happens, and the batteries just bridge the gap until the genset is online.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

techntrek said:


> . Not cheap, but with low cycling and few deep discharges they should last 10 years or more.
> 
> It is imperative that your charging system have an accurate float and that the batteries get "exercised" a couple of times a year to minimize sulfation.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

SDizzle said:


> This all seems very in depth, so whether a whole house generator, or a UPS that runs on batteries, these must be wired into your electrical panel on the side of the house? And do you have to install a special panel? What type of initial cost might one expect in doing these types of "power backup" systems? Do these systems "know" immediately when power is lost, and kicks in immediately so that resets of electrical components don't happen?


Gensets and UPSs require transfer switches to ensure neither is connected to the utility system while they are active. You can have a full-sized (200 amp) transfer switch added to an existing panel as an add-on, or you can buy a full-sized replacement panel that has a transfer switch built in. Both options require the utility power to be disconnected - ironically - while they are installed so its best to add them when you first build a house.

Aftermarket panels exist, too. My genset came with a 12 circuit panel with a built-in transfer switch. It gets powered from a 50 amp breaker in my main utility panel, so the utility power wasn't disconnected. My UPS has a built-in transfer switch so I could use a regular small panel from Home Depot. In both cases the circuits you want to power must be rerouted from your utility panel.

Larger permanent gensets and all UPSs detect when utility power is lost is start automatically. However, if you only have a genset you'll be w/o power for 30-40 seconds until it starts, warms up and comes online.

Cost depends on your needs. A small genset that you pull out of the shed and then run extension cords to your fridge and table lamp can be done for a few hundred dollars, but you also need to swap out your backup gas supply every 6 months. A permanent genset can cost from $2000 to tens of thousands for a very large home solution. You could put a few hundred into UPSs to keep critical loads (DVRs, computer) online for 15 minutes and then hook up a small genset and your total cost would stay in 3 digits. A large UPS can cost from a few hundred used, to ten thousand new. My UPS used, plus the new panel, wiring, and minor stuff cost me about $450, but that's with my own labor and I still need to put about $1000 into the new battery system soon.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

davring said:


> techntrek said:
> 
> 
> > . Not cheap, but with low cycling and few deep discharges they should last 10 years or more.
> ...


The UPS has temperature-compensated charging so the float voltage is correct for the conditions. I've kept an eye on the charging voltage since October and as the weather has grown colder the float has increased appropriately. I have a table which lists proper voltage per cell based on temperature and so far the built-in system has been dead-on from 65F to 32F. I'll find out this summer how well it handles warmer temps.

The only disadvantage to using the built-in system is since it was designed for gel-cells it doesn't allow for an equalization charge. Haven't figured out what I'm going to do about that; I might just use a transformer on a timer and manually equalize individual batteries every month or two to reduce sulfation.


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## SDizzle (Jan 1, 2007)

techntrek said:


> Gensets and UPSs require transfer switches to ensure neither is connected to the utility system while they are active. You can have a full-sized (200 amp) transfer switch added to an existing panel as an add-on, or you can buy a full-sized replacement panel that has a transfer switch built in. Both options require the utility power to be disconnected - ironically - while they are installed so its best to add them when you first build a house.
> 
> Aftermarket panels exist, too. My genset came with a 12 circuit panel with a built-in transfer switch. It gets powered from a 50 amp breaker in my main utility panel, so the utility power wasn't disconnected. My UPS has a built-in transfer switch so I could use a regular small panel from Home Depot. In both cases the circuits you want to power must be rerouted from your utility panel.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation, learn something new everyday. I have seen small UPS devices at places like Fry's and BB, but never thought of a whole house one.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

I lot of people around here use propane powered generators (there is no natural gas on the island). I haven't quite convinced myself to make the investment, but have been tempted a few times. Being without a DVR is an inconvenience; not being able to pump from my well is a much bigger inconvenience.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

bobnielsen said:


> Being without a DVR is an inconvenience; not being able to pump from my well is a much bigger inconvenience.


The well, fridges/freezer, and keeping warm in the winter were the main reasons we bought our LPG genset. Lights, TVs and keeping cool in the summer are certainly "extras" to me, but some could argue they are necessities, too.


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

techntrek said:


> What will work best for you depends on your situation. In my case, I'm way out near end of the trunk line, and then down a country road. Neighbors have stories of being w/o power for 2+ weeks after ice storms and hurricanes, and before I installed my generator we lost power for several hours monthly. I needed a long-term solution so at first I installed a whole-house genset. Lots of power, but I discovered it was expensive to run for long periods of time, and the power quality wasn't great (flickering lights...). Then I added the UPS, which can run 2/3 of the day and condition my power.
> 
> If I had to do it all over again (didn't already have the genset) I would have purchased a larger UPS and smaller generator. A large battery bank would hold me over for 90% of the outages, no generator needed at all. The smaller generator could then trickle-charge during long outages.
> 
> ...


thanks for the explanation. that is a heck of a system. while we do not lose power often here(maybe a few times a year for a few hours at a time, longest was around 2 days) i have been looking into something that could carry the load thru that time on all of the necessities.


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## rkicklighter (Nov 29, 2007)

Care to see how big you can go with a UPS? Place I am doing the building management controls for in Cincinnati has 2 UPS's similiar to this one.

GE Industrial UPS

480 volt 3 phase, 500 kva, about $120K each + batteries and there are a bunch of wet cells on each unit.

Units will maintain all critical elements of a data center for about 30 minutes. During a power outage, UPS's ride through while the generators get up to speed. Once up and synch'd, generators replace utility power during the outage. Load side of the UPS never sees utility or generator power, only the conditioned output.


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## BKC (Dec 12, 2007)

That's a notch above mine. If I lose power I shut off the main and fire up the generator and plug it in the welder receptacle. Works good for me.


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## mjwagner (Oct 8, 2005)

dave29 said:


> what is cost cost ratio of this, compared to a whole home generator system. how long do you anticipate your system to "last" during a brownout or blackout?


Not sure about the UPS but last year when my wife and I built our new house we included a whole house generator, 18kw Generac. I paid $4200 delivered from Norwall Power Systems and it included a 200A automatic transfer switch. Cost an extra $500 to have the electrician wire it in while he was doing the rest of the house. It runs the entire house during a power outage. We don't have gas around here so it runs off of our 1K gallon buried propane tank that we use for the rest of the house. We do lose power for about 30 seconds during the switch over but no big deal. I use small UPS's on critical systems around the house, network, computers, etc.


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

mjwagner said:


> Not sure about the UPS but last year when my wife and I built our new house we included a whole house generator, 18kw Generac. I paid $4200 delivered from Norwall Power Systems and it included a 200A automatic transfer switch. Cost an extra $500 to have the electrician wire it in while he was doing the rest of the house. It runs the entire house during a power outage. We don't have gas around here so it runs off of our 1K gallon buried propane tank that we use for the rest of the house. We do lose power for about 30 seconds during the switch over but no big deal. I use small UPS's on critical systems around the house, network, computers, etc.


that may be more along the lines of what i am looking for, do you have anykind of power conditioner?


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## mjwagner (Oct 8, 2005)

dave29 said:


> that may be more along the lines of what i am looking for, do you have anykind of power conditioner?


Other than the typical surge suppressors for my sensitive electronic equipment, like my DVR's, no. The power that comes out of the generator is actually pretty stable. The only time you really know you are on generator power vs utility is when large loads kick on.

Both the Generac and Norwall web sites have detailed information on the generators.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

dave29 - I made a long post on this thread yesterday about my experience picking out a generator. You can probably buy smaller than you think:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151520


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## VARTV (Dec 14, 2006)

I was always looking for a cheap UPS solution to bridge the gap from utility powerloss and the generator kick-in (about 25 sec for mine). I've just succumbed to using several small APC units around the house (one for the HT, computers, etc...)


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

dave29 said:


> i see, so the batteries hold the power on everything until the generator kicks on.


Yes, the same is true of any (model make UPS) APC 1500, Same function on a smaller scale.

While his "whole' House is UPS means he has circuits (not all) the ones that maker, Like a well pump (for water) Lights, Refidge and stove you add all the Draw and the build your system to fit,


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

SDizzle said:


> So, these people have BOTH a UPS with batteries AND a generator?!?


What he has is like a really big APC unit. That is Electrical rated for the amount of battery to hold his "circuits up" (load) 
When loss of utility power the invert Draws power from the batterys to supply AC power, The Generator Kicks in a Utility power fail, When the inverter gets the correct swine wave from the Genorator, the inverter takes ac power form the gen. and passes to the house circuits, then the battery's go into a charging float mode still powered by the generator.

When AC power is restored from the street. The Gen shuts down and the inverter switches bat online from the power company all the while floating the battery's - keeping them charged (ready for the next load.

Sorry for my late reply as re-reading the post, You can tell from my typing ability that I used to build an assemble power plants so I didn't spend a lot of time typing or learning to spell


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

techntrek said:


> dave29 - I made a long post on this thread yesterday about my experience picking out a generator. You can probably buy smaller than you think:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=151520


thanks, i will check it out


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## mobouser (May 23, 2007)

I have followed this thread closely and find it very interesting. I to lost power for five days due to an ice storm. I picked up a 3.5KW generator and now Im wondering about the problem due to high tech appliances requiring more sophisticated power. Maybe less than 2% THD (total harmonic distortion) of the sine wave. I plan on reading up on this more but back to the UPS. If I were to spend that kind of money I would consider going Solar to a backup battery supply. That will give you a clean inverted sine wave (DC to AC) and you can feed back into the grid. You can also get tax credits for the installation while watching your meter run backwards.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

mobouser said:


> I have followed this thread closely and find it very interesting. I to lost power for five days due to an ice storm. I picked up a 3.5KW generator and now Im wondering about the problem due to high tech appliances requiring more sophisticated power. Maybe less than 2% THD (total harmonic distortion) of the sine wave. I plan on reading up on this more but back to the UPS. If I were to spend that kind of money I would consider going Solar to a backup battery supply. That will give you a clean inverted sine wave (DC to AC) and you can feed back into the grid. You can also get tax credits for the installation while watching your meter run backwards.


I pretty much have an ideal location to use solar, but every time I look, it is still too costly given 10 or more year payback times. And way more expensive than a generator.

That said, there will be a time, perhaps soon, when solar will reach an acceptable payback timeframe. Indeed, almost time for me to check again. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

Tom Robertson said:


> I pretty much have an ideal location to use solar, but every time I look, it is still too costly given 10 or more year payback times. And way more expensive than a generator.
> 
> That said, there will be a time, perhaps soon, when solar will reach an acceptable payback timeframe. Indeed, almost time for me to check again.
> 
> ...


Yeah right after peace in the world is acheived.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

mobouser said:


> I have followed this thread closely and find it very interesting. I to lost power for five days due to an ice storm. I picked up a 3.5KW generator and now Im wondering about the problem due to high tech appliances requiring more sophisticated power. Maybe less than 2% THD (total harmonic distortion) of the sine wave. I plan on reading up on this more but back to the UPS. If I were to spend that kind of money I would consider going Solar to a backup battery supply. That will give you a clean inverted sine wave (DC to AC) and you can feed back into the grid. You can also get tax credits for the installation while watching your meter run backwards.


I subscribe to a magazine called Homepower. What you describe is the focus of that magazine (along with related subjects like efficient building techniques, etc). Its been around since the infancy of off-grid solar over 25 years ago. I recommend it if you are truly interested in solar, wind, hydro. I plan to install a grid-tie inverter, too, but its on my 5 to 10 year plan. Like Tom said, the payback just isn't right yet. You can get a payback in 15-20 years, but inverters may not last that long. The solar panels will last 30 years, though. I have great southern exposure on the edge of a meadow about 150 feet from my house so all I need is the equipment.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

WestDC said:


> Yeah right after peace in the world is acheived.


Between thin-film and non-silicon technologies under development, I'm betting 5 to 10 years.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

And the advanced nanotechnologies (part of the non-silicone technologies you mention.)


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

My UPS got its first real test last night. A neighbor called to see if we had power because her's was out and (not thinking too hard) I said "sure, everything's fine here". After hanging up I had a "V8 moment" [slap hand to forehead] and realized I should go out to the garage... sure enough we had been on battery power for 20 minutes and I didn't even know it.

Two TVs, kids upstairs on their Wii, two DVRs, lights, 1500 watt heater, air exchanger, fridges, freezer, blower on the wood stove, all humming along like normal.  Good thing, too, since it was in the single-digits last night - not a good time to be w/o power. Kicked on the genset and we hummed along for the next few hours, then back to the UPS at bedtime to keep the clocks and electric blanket going. I still need to upgrade the battery bank but the old batteries appear to be functional enough for now.

And yes, I called our neighbors back right away and explained my brain-fart. Invited them over to stay warm but they had other options.


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## denzel_washington (Jun 19, 2009)

WestDC said:


> The main expense is the battery's and upkeep (battery's) do not last forever. When they need to be replaced,they can only be disposed of in an eviromently safe fashion or in most states by a linsensed hardzard firm.
> 
> He bought 64 Lead aicd battey's that he will need to get rid of at a COST$$
> Nice system


Sorry to bring up an old thread, but that's bull****. If you haven't gotten rid of your 64 lead acid batteries, be aware, lead is worth money. If you haul them to the scrap yard, they'll pay you.


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## my1423 (May 16, 2009)

Look into Rail road locomotive batteries. They are cheaper, and have a long warranty. Loads of people around here have them for their solar systems. 

As for solar being expensive, You already have 90% of the system with a ups. All you need is the panels themselves in enough balanced quantity to direct feed via an inexpensive charger right into your batteries. If your on a budget look into panel seconds. They are sold at severely discounted rate. Yes they have less output, but usually less then 15% under the output of the same retail panel.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Very cool stuff. We have 3 major data centers and the power is just one of the impressive things. Not only do they have the backup lines from the power company they to have the diesel generators and battery backup fail over stuff in place. This can get very expensive depending on what is wanted/required.

I just pay my bill! :lol:


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

my1423 said:


> Look into Rail road locomotive batteries.
> 
> As for solar being expensive, You already have 90% of the system with a ups.


I settled on marine deep-cycle batteries, since this isn't a daily-cycle system. Much cheaper. As for 90%, that's more like 30%, with the panels, charge controller, wiring, etc. making up the rest. I did look into seconds, and so far I see solar cell seconds, I haven't found a source for solar panel seconds...


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

bobnielsen said:


> I lot of people around here use propane powered generators (there is no natural gas on the island). I haven't quite convinced myself to make the investment, but have been tempted a few times. Being without a DVR is an inconvenience; not being able to pump from my well is a much bigger inconvenience.


We use a Generac 15kw propane powered generator, just for the simple reason: we have to have water first, then the TV.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

Thought I would post an update on my system. I recently bought an APC UPS to replace my older Liebert (the one I bought when I first started this thread). The Liebert and the newer APC are both able to run directly from my Prius' traction battery so I now have a 4-pronged approach to backup power.

I have a few small UPSs in place to ensure things like DVRs don't ever loose power. I still have the large genset, but it is now my last resort - mostly only needed for the water heater and well pump. I also still have the large battery bank, which will handle the very short and multi-hour outages.

The Prius is now the workhorse "generator", using as much gas on average as small 1 to 2 kw Honda/Yamaha inverter gensets but able to power up to 5 kw if needed. I've run two overnight tests with it hooked up to my UPS instead of the battery bank and it worked perfectly both times. I can also throw the UPS into the trunk and use it as a portable power system, too. If you want details I have a full write-up on a solar forum I visit: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?12962-Using-a-Prius-as-a-generator


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