# Hdmi - Dvi



## DanB474 (May 28, 2004)

When I leased my 942, it came with a HDMI - DVI cable, which I used to hook it up to my Sony HD set. There was also a female DVI - male HDMI adapter, which I didn't need (as I don't have HDMI input on my TV). When my 622 arrived, I just swapped the box and used the same cables from my 942. I just ordered a Samsung DLP which only has HDMI inputs (no DVI). If I use the adapter (female DVI - male HDMI) that came with my 942, will it pass the audio signal??? If not, what is the point of having this adapter?

It didn't really make sense to me why Dish didn't include a HDMI - HDMI cable and a separate DVI adapter. 

Note: My 622 didn't come with any HDMI or DVI cables or adapters.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

DVI signaling support only video, not audio.


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## lakebum431 (Jun 30, 2005)

Actually that adaptor will pass audio. But only 2 channels


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

an adapter could, but DVI output doesn't have those 2 audio channels


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

P Smith said:


> an adapter could, but DVI output doesn't have those 2 audio channels


This is absolutely wrong. :nono2: The audio, both two cahannel and multi-channel is present with DVI... just no protocol to detect and utilize it.

We have a 622 connected ot a 37:" Panasonic Plasma via the cable and adapter that came with our 942. (That is HDMI to DVI from the 622 and the DVI to HDMI adapter to the Panasonic. The sound *is* passed via this mode and we enjoy the 2 Ch Stereo that the TV is capable of utilizing.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

lakebum431 said:


> Actually that adaptor will pass audio. But only 2 channels


Absolutely!


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## DanB474 (May 28, 2004)

Woohoo! Thanks for all the replies. I just hooked up my TV, and viola - I DO have the audio with that 622-HDMI-DVI-HDMI adapter-TV setup. Very nice.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Hmmm, Dish is not follow DVI standard. Could someone check pinout of those Dish HDMI-DVI cable and an adapter ?


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Tech Chat - they essentially said either your TV is not fully HDMI compliant or you broke your HDMI connector.

LUCY - I's nod my falt!


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Hmmm, Dish is not follow DVI standard. Could someone check pinout of those Dish HDMI-DVI cable and an adapter ?


What did you want checked out? You just connect the DVI pins to the HDMI pin that has the same identical name and function for all but two control lines and you are good to go. All the audio is on the same data bus pins that the video uses. There is an optional HDMI connection that isn't needed for remote control and such. I have the 942 cable and adapter and an ohm meter, but if you compare the pinouts of the two connectors, you won't find anything added to HDMI for audio connectors. It is all in having devices on both ends expecting HDMI to negotiate audio as well as video when it gets connected.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

People- You can't use an hdmi source such as a 622 to determine whether Dish puts audio on a DVI source. There is no DVI source spec on the 622. IT is hdmi only and only supports 2 channel audio. Running hdmi data signals through a DVI cable adapter is not a dvi source. It is just wire!


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

P Smith said:


> Hmmm, Dish is not follow DVI standard. Could someone check pinout of those Dish HDMI-DVI cable and an adapter ?


It has nothing to do with Dish's provided cable. Can't you accept the fact that with a DV_ cable nothing is done to strip or Demux the 2 Ch and multi-channel digital stream. (I mean why would they? :lol: )

The audio *is* present, just no protocol to use it - *no matter who manufactures the cable!* 
You and others have promulgated a lot of bad info about HDMI/DVI, no matter how well intentioned, and somehow blamed Dish for HDMI related audio issues that exist with all receivers/HDMI combos. Go over to the AVS forums and do some reading before misleading folks here. Just a suggestion._


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Seems to me you never works with DVI circuits; well, take a look here.
Reading AVS and other forums is good habits, but knowledge is must for intercept discussions. 

DL, I'm hear yeah - just was swamped with DVI involving here.  I curious how that cable and adapter inject 2 channels audio into both DVI connectors.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

P Smith said:


> Seems to me you never works with DVI circuits; well, take a look here....


You can lead a horse to water... :hurah:


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

DanB474 said:


> Woohoo! Thanks for all the replies. I just hooked up my TV, and viola - I DO have the audio with that 622-HDMI-DVI-HDMI adapter-TV setup. Very nice.


Dan,

It can't possibly work. "Seems to me you never works (sic) with DVI circuits." :lol:

Glad you're good to go. Lots of misinformation goes around on this on this subject.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm glad you have a lot of water now


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Seems to me you never works with DVI circuits; well, take a look here.
> Reading AVS and other forums is good habits, but knowledge is must for intercept discussions.
> 
> DL, I'm hear yeah - just was swamped with DVI involving here.  I curious how that cable and adapter inject 2 channels audio into both DVI connectors.


It doesn't inject anything. As Don said, "It is just wire".

I have no idea whan an "intercept discussion" is, nor if I'd want to have one. I'm unclear if you even want to know what the cable consists of, but your pinout URL with 29 pins is the Dual link with Analog video. Look for a single link DVI without analog included. DVI-D (single) Here with no connection to DVI "Link2" pins 4-5, 12-13, 20-21. DVI pins 6 & 7 are called DDC clock and data and get connected to the HDMI clock and data pins SCL and SDA here: HDMI You don't need anything on the optional Consumer Electronic CEC pin.

Easier to purchase, but from the above HDMI pinouts and a DVI connector, one should be able to build their own cable by just connecting the HDMI pins to the DVI pins with the identical name and function. You have to know the the DDC pins on the DVI connector (to read the device's EDID) corresponds to the HDMI SCL and SDA pins, but this isn't rocket science. Just wires. All the audio is in the devices at each end supporting the HDMI source reading the EDID of the sink on the wires that are common to both interfaces. HDMI just extends the function to include audio on the same wires used by DVI (different connectors of course).


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Huh ? Then what the purpose of that HDMI-DVI cable originally.
As you see from your URL, DVI connector doesn't carry any AUDIO signals.


> "The data format used by DVI is based on the PanelLink serial format devised by the semiconductor manufacturer Silicon Image Inc. This uses Transition Minimized Differential Signaling (TMDS). A single DVI link consists of four twisted pairs of wire (*red, green, blue, and clock*) to transmit 24 bits per pixel. The timing of the signal almost exactly matches that of an analog video signal. The picture is transmitted line by line with blanking intervals between each line and each frame, and without packetization. No compression is used and DVI has no provision for only transmitting changed parts of the image. This means the whole frame is constantly re-transmitted.
> 
> With a single DVI link, the largest resolution possible at 60Hz is 2.6 megapixels. The DVI connector therefore has provision for a second link, containing another set of red, green, and blue twisted pairs. When more bandwidth is required than is possible with a single link, the second link is enabled, and alternate pixels may be transmitted on each. The DVI specification mandates a fixed single link cutoff point of 165 MHz, where all display modes that require less than this must use single link mode, and all those that require more must switch to dual link mode. When both links are in use, the pixel rate on each may exceed 165 MHz. The second link can also be used when more than 24 bits per pixel is required, in which case it carries the least significant bits."


What you will expect on that TV set with DVI input only ? Are you telling me one of those TMDS DataX pair sending AUDIO signal, when TV expect on those wires "red, green, blue, or clock".
Just show me how it works for 622+HDMI to TV+DVI. By signals and wires.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

P Smith said:


> As you see from your URL, DVI connector doesn't carry any AUDIO signals.


This is utter nonsense.  You've got posters on this thread, including the OP, that are utilizing sound from a HDMI to DVI to HDMI cable/adapter. You just don't get it and sadly continue to provide false info.

Again, I tried. Ya'll have a good day. lol


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Could you be be so kind to answer to my answers above ?


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## bear paws (Jan 11, 2006)

'intercept discussion" is what she does after you Demux. Its similar to interdigitation.

Any ways Salti, that dawg, is right again.

P smith; Where your going wrong is just looking at "DVI" as vidio data protocal only, which it is. But digital vidio data is not the only signal carried by the DVI-I cable and port which is backwards compatible with HDMI [vid and audio] and is not addressed by the DVI standards as set out by the DVI specifications which is for vidio protocal only not for the cable or ports which is addressed by the single /dual specs. DVI-D vs DVI-I which has c1,c2,c3 and leaves the 2nd pair of RGB for better things. 
I hope that made sense. I can see it but having a hard time explaming it.

Bear!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Bear, 
Can you do simple answer: pins/signals on HDMI end and DVI end of the Dish HDMI-DVI cable ? Easiest way to make real ground for such discussions (actually any engineer must start a discussion from that !).


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## bear paws (Jan 11, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Bear,
> Can you do simple answer: pins/signals on HDMI end and DVI end of the Dish HDMI-DVI cable ? Easiest way to make real ground for such discussions (actually any engineer must start a discussion from that !).


What did you expect from a automotive engineer,something simple?:sure: 

All HDMI will transport audio but not all DVIs will. So if you output HDMI the DVI adapter will pass it thru. If you output DVI and convert it to HDMI it won't. I guess.

So if the Dish outputs HDMI and you have a HDMI or DVI-I input on the TV/audio amp. then you will have at least 2 channel audio if it is a DVI-I adapter interface which is really HDMI for all intents.
I think I'm getting a head ack. It in the wireing, .

Bear!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

http://www.octavainc.com/faq.htm


> HDMI ( High Definition Multimedia Interface) is the state of art digital A/V connection that supports uncompressed, all-digital video and audio in a single connection. It is truly the first digital "multi-media" interconnect supporting both digital video and audio.. Fundamentally, HDMI is the same as DVI in video quality. The major difference is that HDMI also supports multi-channel digital audio in the same cable! HDMI transmits in native digital ( no A/D conversions) R,G, B format that is ideal for HDTV systems.
> 
> Lots of the newer DVD players have HDMI connectors, but you may still have a DVI monitor. You can still view digital video all you need is to use a HDMI to DVI cable or HDMI to DVI adapter if you already have a cable around the house. However, no digital audio can be passed to the DVI monitor through the DVI connector. Either a RCA stereo or a Toslink connector for digital audio can be used instead.


The pinouts of a HDMI cable and a DVI cable are on that page.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm still waiting straight answer: pinouts of both sides of HDMI-DVI cable used with ViP622.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Crossconnects are on this page:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/283/3

No endorsement of site linked.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Nevermind ...

Last question: is someone knows DATA channels assignment for HDMI and DVI video/audio signals[DATA0-3 vs DATA0-5] ?


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

P Smith said:


> Last question: is someone knows DATA channels assignment for HDMI and DVI video/audio signals[DATA0-3 vs DATA0-5] ?


The crossconnect cable in Jame's URL works for an HDMI source (output) to DVI input or from a DVI output (source) to an HDMI input on a TV/monitor.

Concentrate on the crossconnect section
Type A HDMI Connector x DVI-D
and ignore the Type B HDMI connector (at least until it is used on things).

In "A" HDMI or Single DVI-D, there isn't anything beyond the THREE data lines 
TMDS0, TMDS1, and TMDS2
TMDS3,4,&5 exist in DUAL DVI connectors and WILL exist in Type B HDMI connectors. In a DUAL DVI-D, they mirror the three data lines 0-2 in a Single to a 2nd DVI device. "AS I UNDERSTAND IT", HDMI "B" will use TMDS3-5 to get more data through on each clock cycle for a single device, not to feed a 2nd device as a Dual DVI does.

There are NO "audio lines" involved at all in HDMI. Audio is digital data, just as video is digital data and is sent on TMDS0-2. TMDS0 doesn't have an "assignment" beyond "data bit 0 of the 3 bit data value" sent at each TMDS clock (multiple data bits are actually sent on each clock cycle, but that's not important right at this point). The "meaning" of the data bits varies (with time and the devices' protocol negotiations / expectations).

TMDS0 is NOT R,G, or B, but TMDSx values could be accumulated to represent a digital value (for Red for example).

I'd suggest not going beyond the 19 pins in James' URL for a "Type A HDMI connector". The optional CEC pin doesn't have a DVI counterpart, but the X connect chart through HDMI pin 19 gives the matching function on a DVI-D (SINGLE).

I've greatly exceeded my actual knowledge of HDMI to get this far and hereby drop out. Hope the above helps somehow.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

My starting point for last question was in a quota at post#18 ( bold is my ).It was mention R,G,B and clock using own DataX lines. Not ?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

On DVI (from the Wikipedia page quoted above it is:
TDMS Clock: Clock
TDMS Data 0: Blue and Sync
TDMS Data 1: Green
TDMS Data 2: Red
TDMS Data 3: Blue (Link 2)
TDMS Data 4: Green (Link 2)
TDMS Data 5: Red (Link 2)​HDMI is in Wikipedia here. The breakdown of what is on each TDMS Data channel is not in the current article. The crossconnect article I linked carries the TDMS channels through from DVI to HDMI in the same order.

The question is "Where on the TDMS Data channels are they hiding the audio?"

Are they sharing left audio data with Green and right audio data with Red in a two channel audio system or trying something more creative? Google has failed me as I have not found that yet (although if one qualifies the hdmi.org website will share the standards). It must be there because the audio does pass on a HDMI-A cable.

The second question is whether or not an E* receiver with a DVI output is putting out more than DVI. As long as they are putting out the DVI standard they meet the rule - it would be possible to send a HDMI standard signal out on the DVI pins if they wished. A DVI monitor could ignore the extraneous data while a DVI to HDMI adapter could pass that data to a HDMI set.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

James Long said:


> The question is "Where on the TDMS Data channels are they hiding the audio?"
> 
> Are they sharing left audio data with Green and right audio data with Red in a two channel audio system or trying something more creative? Google has failed me as I have not found that yet (although if one qualifies the hdmi.org website will share the standards). It must be there because the audio does pass on a HDMI-A cable.


I know, I promised I'd shut up!

DVI is an RGB based system, but HDMI need not be RGB at all. Google http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=YCbCr+HDMI
You don't have to hide audio on Green with HDMI because there isn't a "Green" signal, just TDMS data bits. The significance of the data bits is in the protocol. If an HDMI "source" queries a "sink" (DDC clock and data on DVI or SCL/SDA on HDMI) and the data indicates the "sink" is DVI, the source must send DVI compatible TDMS. If it indicates the "sink" is HDMI, it also tells the source what video modes it supports, what audio it is capable of, blah, blah. The source can then send RGB, YCbCr 4:4:4, or YCbCr 4:2:2.

I really don't like that HDMI.com doesn't have info unless to jump through hoops and show you have a need to know. Truth to tell, I don't "NEED" as long as it works. But that doesn't stop me from wild speculation that at times, the TDMS data lines actually carry some binary infomation to let the "sink" in on what will be forthcoming. Even the TDMS0 Blue & Sync would need something to let the device know when it was Sync. Each TDMS "clock" actually yields 10 values for each of the 3 "data bits". Three clocks will give you 30 bits - 24 pixel bits and 6 "control" for each of the 3 data bits. You could do lots of things in the "control" bits in addition to minimizing the number of signal transitions. The audio data doesn't need anywhere close to the video bandwidth. I can't answer "where" it is hiding, but I can say that having the data bits pass through a DVI connector and then back to HDMI will leave the cable behaving just the same as if it were HDMI-HDMI straight through. And I've cycled back to where I entered the thread.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Sounds like "the answer" to me.

The cable is just wires ... wires carrying four shielded twisted pairs with data and a couple of other signal channels. Once the "handshake" is made the source sends whatever data the destination needs to continue. If it gets a DVI handshake then DVI audio is sent (per the pattern required for DVI). If it gets a HDMI handshake then those "secret" rules are followed. The wires stay the same.

Makes sense.

The 2nd question (whether an old "DVI" connector on an E* receiver can actually talk HDMI) is one for testing. But it isn't a question for this thread or forum.

P Smith was right ... "DVI signaling support only video, not audio." But thanks to the handshake between the receiver and the TV DVI signaling isn't used, HDMI signalling is.


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## bear paws (Jan 11, 2006)

James Long said:


> On DVI (from the Wikipedia page quoted above it is:TDMS Clock: Clock​
> TDMS Data 0: Blue and Sync​
> TDMS Data 1: Green​
> TDMS Data 2: Red​
> ...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I prefer to see solid technical standard for such implementation. Is it heavy guarded secret of DVI, HDMI consortiums ?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> I prefer to see solid technical standard for such implementation. Is it heavy guarded secret of DVI, HDMI consortiums ?


Why not visit http://hdmi.org/ and find out?

"The HDMI technical specification is available to HD device, display, component, and test equipment manufacturers at no charge."
Specification Request Form​
Not "available to the general public" for download or reading yet I doubt if they require a blood test to get the documents. It all depends on your definition of 'heavily guarded' and what they confirm when one requests specifications.


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## 12th Man (Aug 15, 2006)

I'm not smart enough to make sense of this thread. Can someone answer this very simple question for me. If my TV has a DVI input but no HDMI, and I connect the VIP622 using an HDMI >> DVI cable (see below), will I get both video and audio, or will I have to make a separate audio connection?

Monoprice.com
"10FT HDMI Male to DVI-D Male CABLE for HDTV "


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Your TV with DVI (video) input will REQUIRE separate audio cable.


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