# DIRECTV Re: OTA: "We Will Have a Dual Tuner Solution"



## Tom Robertson

I asked DIRECTV about the H21/HR21 and OTA issue as it is such a very hot topic here. Many of us very much value our OTA connections, many of you have made excellent points as to why, I too enjoy my OTA regularly and often. 

So I pass on this statement from DIRECTV regarding OTA: "We will have a solution."

So let us steer the conversation to what and when that solution might be.

<moderator hat on> I'll leave this thread stickied for just a few days. We'll be closing the existing threads that purely talk about "There is no OTA", and invite everyone to discuss here.

That said, threads about specific issues people are having will be left open for discussion. If we've closed a thread in mistake, please PM any of the moderators. Thanks.
<moderator hat off>

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

My take on what this will really mean?

1) Some OTA shortages might be possible until the solution is fully implemented. We've already seen how a few people didn't get what they wanted.
2) OTA is important to DIRECTV today and cost savings are too.
3) So DIRECTV won't be all OTA nor all no OTA; they will have both. It's all about having options.
4) OTA technology has license fees and with two tuners in an HR20, those fees add up.

This is not a Black or White issue. This is having both options.

Lastly, I'm glad DIRECTV let us make this statement for them.

Cheers,
Tom


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## michaelyork29

Does this mean that we will continue to have OTA in the current recievers that have it, or will the new recievers that don't have OTA will have it (I don't even know how that's possible..)


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## Tom Robertson

While I think I know (and I think I know how) until DIRECTV tells Earl or I more, I can't say.

But everyone is welcome to surmise how a solution might work.


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## Doug Brott

Tom, this is most excellent to hear. I made this comment in another thread, but it seems appropriate here:

----



gblues said:


> This is what I've been thinking--why not make a USB 2.0 OTA tuner, then sell it for $49 + S&H. And finally use those damn USB ports! Even better, just build in support for the bazillion USB ATSC tuners that are available now for PCs.
> 
> As far as failed HR20's, if it's the hard drive just go eSATA. That may be what I have to end up doing if my HR20's hard drive dies because my DMA is nowhere near close to getting HD LiL and I'm not changing shifts just so I can watch my fav shows in HD.


Well, you know, there is a company that makes these things already .. even runs under Linux apparently:









link

Something called SageTV has support for this device under Linux
http://www.sagetv.com/requirements.html

I guess in theory there is nothing to prevent DIRECTV from utilizing this in some form .. I just haven't heard anything to this point.

I certainly don't know that this is the solution, just that there are already products on the market that could potentially be used.


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## Coffey77

michaelyork29 said:


> Does this mean that we will continue to have OTA in the current recievers that have it, or will the new recievers that don't have OTA will have it (I don't even know how that's possible..)


It has been stated that one of the reasons to remove OTA from receivers is cost of them installed. You remove the cost from DIRECTV and leave the option up to the customer. 
DIRECTV could:

add more programming at no additional cost to the customer
offer cheaper receiving equipment
offer more incentives/rebates
fill in the blank as to the possibilities for having "extra" cash.
This also can possibly open the market for other companies to develop different and better OTA receiving capabilities - which is cetainly a major complaint of the HR20's receiving capabilities.

Thank you for the update Tom, always good to hear there is future possibilities.


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## Drew2k

Great news for everyone who can receive OTA who wants sub-channels or locals not yet carried by DIRECTV! 

Thanks for sharing this Tom...


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## RAD

Sorry Tom but I really don't understand what this thread is about. Is there where D* is going to tell us what the going forward plan will be or is D* looking for our ideas on how to solve the issue?


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## JohnF

My guess is the "solution" will be the schedule of additional HD availability via satellite e.g. PBS-HD, so that according to DTV the OTA issue will be solved.


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## Tom Robertson

While DIRECTV is always interested in hearing our very creative thoughts and solutions, I believe DIRECTV also already has solutions in mind. (Keeping the HR20 as a receiver for a long time can be a great one, don't forget.)


Tom


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## Coffey77

RAD said:


> Sorry Tom but I really don't understand what this thread is about. Is there where D* is going to tell us what the going forward plan will be or is D* looking for our ideas on how to solve the issue?


I'd like to guess "both". I assume they have an idea and maybe even a product ready. If you have any ideas, here and now is a good place to let them know.


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## Tom Robertson

JohnF said:


> My guess is the "solution" will be the schedule of additional HD availability via satellite e.g. PBS-HD, so that according to DTV the OTA issue will be solved.


Perhaps as a long-term solution, but I don't think either we who want OTA nor DIRECTV will really consider that as a solution.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Drew2k

JohnF said:


> My guess is the "solution" will be the schedule of additional HD availability via satellite e.g. PBS-HD, so that according to DTV the OTA issue will be solved.


Well, that's quite a cynical view! 

I'd prefer to think DIRECTV decided to remove OTA tuners from the HR21 with some sort of add-on OTA solution already in mind, to be delivered (when ready) only to customers who need them, thereby controlling costs overall.

I guess I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy!


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## houskamp

Great to hear an "official" anouncement.. Thats all I wanted to hear.. Now we can get back to buisness


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## jtn

The solution is for those who want OTA provide the IRD/STB that has it, and for those who don't want it, provide the IRD/STB that doesn't have it. Let the customer choose.


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## veryoldschool

Tom Robertson said:


> My take on what this will really mean?
> This is not a Black or White issue. This is having both options.


Actually it's a black and silver issue. [HR21 no OTA black, HR20 OTA silver]


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## Sixto

This thread gets me thinking ... wonder what else could someday be added via USB 2.0 ... dreaming of a 3rd or 4th tuner


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## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> While DIRECTV is always interested in hearing our very creative thoughts and solutions...


As usual there will not be a solution that will make everyone happy. With that sais here's my thoughts on a soution.

- If someone wants a HD DVR and if their local DMA has the four major networks up on HD LIL service they get a HR21/H21. If they want a HR20/H20 they will pay extra to receive those boxes.

- If the local DMA does not have all four major networks on HD LIL service they can, if they request it, a HR20/H20.

- If you have a HR20/H20 and need a replacement D* will ship you the same model, they won't replace it with a HR21/H21.

But IMHO, if the cost reductions in the HR21/H21 should have just resulted in lower MSPR's. The high buy in price of the HR2X STB's has been a major issue (from what I can see) from folks migrating from cable or E* since those services have a lower buy in price. When you compare the HR21 to E*'s 722 new customers are going to be paying more for D* and having a shorter commitment period also. People are going to look at this and think hard about is D* worth the extra $'s.


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## jtn

veryoldschool said:


> Actually it's a black and silver issue. [HR21 no OTA black, HR20 OTA silver]


It would be cool if you could specify a color for any model to match your decor. Like White, Silver, Black, etc. :lol:


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## Tom Robertson

veryoldschool said:


> Actually it's a black and silver issue. [HR21 no OTA black, HR20 OTA silver]


I almost tried to work that in...


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## Coffey77

Sixto said:


> This thread gets me thinking ... wonder what else could someday be added via USB 2.0 ... dreaming of a 3rd or 4th tuner


I think that this is an excellent thought - and possibility. I think there's already some of them out there for the PC but I forget where someone found one. *Note: Saw that Doug has a picture of one way at the top of this thread!!*








link
Maybe even some type of add-on receiver that can gather the OTA and combine it into the same frequency as the DIRECTV feeds...

Also, if they use MRV through the network of your home, you could connect a separate tuner somewhere else and pull the OTA signal from it to a receiver throughout the home.


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## JohnF

Tom Robertson said:


> Perhaps as a long-term solution, but I don't think either we who want OTA nor DIRECTV will really consider that as a solution.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I agree. For me, OTA is important.



Drew2k said:


> Well, that's quite a cynical view!
> 
> I'd prefer to think DIRECTV decided to remove OTA tuners from the HR21 with some sort of add-on OTA solution already in mind, to be delivered (when ready) only to customers who need them, thereby controlling costs overall.
> 
> I guess I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy!


Yes, cynical - somewhat tongue in cheek! 

But they could take the view, hopefully they won't, that to help defray costs on providing additional HD, sacrificing OTA for the very small pct of users who care is a reasonable cost trade-off. For new customers or folks purchasing/leasing new boxes for the first time, the offering is on the table. For existing folks, try and keep refurbished HR20s available, maybe provide via Protection Plan new HR21s to those who don't care to preserve the HR20s, then when the supply runs out, more HD locals will be available, and for the small pct of customers still not happy, offer some other incentive or allow canceling with no penalty.


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## houskamp

jtn said:


> It would be cool if you could specify a color for any model to match your decor. Like White, Silver, Black, etc. :lol:


And PINK for the BB&B fans :lol:


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## tfederov

dude. :lol:


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## Coffey77

houskamp said:


> And PINK for the BB&B fans :lol:


Hey, don't count out "skins" for the HR20s. Many of the game consoles have them as well as amost all cell phones and now even many laptops. You may just find that a "skin" for a laptop may cover the top of an HR20 (that doesn't have top vent holes!!!).


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## Drew2k

tfederov said:


> dude. :lol:


It's like you can smell a BB&B post! :lol:

J/K! 

Anyway, I think options are great, and if having OTA as an add-on option eventually lowers the cost of the DVR, I'm all for it. DIRECTV wants to get them into more homes, and consumers want to shell out as little as they have to. This solution DIRECTV is working on will be great for everyone in the long run ...


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## tfederov

houskamp gave me a heads up. :lol:

Somehow getting the OTA into something like the SWM and letting it handle not only two feeds from the dish but one from the antenna might be kinda cool.


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## Sharkie_Fan

jtn said:


> The solution is for those who want OTA provide the IRD/STB that has it, and for those who don't want it, provide the IRD/STB that doesn't have it. Let the customer choose.


A nice idea, but I don't think that's the answer here. If that was the case, the statement from DirecTV would be "We have a solution. Not we "will" have a solution. 

I think we've seen with the HR21/H21 that they're moving towards manufacturing boxes without OTA built in. However, given Tom's statement, they're also working on (or already have) some sort of external solution which will integrate with the boxes. Some sort of external solution that DirecTV will charge for.

They go with the cheapest manufacturing route, delivering the most basic box possible to most consumers. For those consumers who wish for expanded functionality - such as OTA, they charge a premium. The basic auto manufacturer model - manufacture a base model and charge for upgrades.

An external USB tuner seems to be the most obvious solution, since there are unused USB plugs on the existing products.


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## jtn

Sharkie_Fan said:


> A nice idea, but I don't think that's the answer here. If that was the case, the statement from DirecTV would be "We have a solution. Not we "will" have a solution.
> 
> I think we've seen with the HR21/H21 that they're moving towards manufacturing boxes without OTA built in. However, given Tom's statement, they're also working on (or already have) some sort of external solution which will integrate with the boxes. Some sort of external solution that DirecTV will charge for.
> 
> They go with the cheapest manufacturing route, delivering the most basic box possible to most consumers. For those consumers who wish for expanded functionality - such as OTA, they charge a premium. The basic auto manufacturer model - manufacture a base model and charge for upgrades.
> 
> An external USB tuner seems to be the most obvious solution, since there are unused USB plugs on the existing products.


1st, I'm glad I got my HR20's before the decision to eliminate OTA built into IRD/STB.

2nd, I think if they are going to force customers to pay extra for OTA by adding external devices they should credit the customers accounts to cover the cost over time.

Thanks for the information.


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## Sharkie_Fan

jtn said:


> 2nd, I think if they are going to force customers to pay extra for OTA by adding external devices they should credit the customers accounts to cover the cost over time.


I'm sure you'll see credits handed out.... especially as people call to complain that "we've always had OTA before". The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as the saying goes.

I would doubt though that it'll be any kind of blanket policy.


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## Knon2000

JohnF said:


> But they could take the view, hopefully they won't, that to help defray costs on providing additional HD, sacrificing OTA for the very small pct of users who care is a reasonable cost trade-off. For new customers or folks purchasing/leasing new boxes for the first time, the offering is on the table. For existing folks, try and keep refurbished HR20s available, maybe provide via Protection Plan new HR21s to those who don't care to preserve the HR20s, then when the supply runs out, more HD locals will be available, and for the small pct of customers still not happy, offer some other incentive or allow canceling with no penalty.


I don't think it is a "small" percentage. A great many of us use OTA for allot of our recording. OTA is more reliable, at least for me it is. No rain fade equals better reliability, at least for me.
Kevin


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## Koz

I think the USB sounds more feasible, but for sake of adding another option...

Perhaps a networked OTA tuner. One box that can provide OTA to multiple STBs. It would use similar protocols to what I'm assuming they are developing for MRV to send the signal to the STBs.


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## Coffey77

I wonder, every time this discussion appears, how many people out there have an HR20-700,-100 don't have any OTA connected to it. I can tell you about 10 of my friends don't. To me, that's a "waste" of a good OTA tuner.


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## Terry K

Well, alot of people don't *know* what they can get OTA for FREE. You know how many people don't know that Weather Plus, for example, is a very good replacement for The Weather channel? (TWC is useless to me on D* since I can't get local conditions) Also the extra PBS including PBS-HD is a plus for me. 

I like getting all I can get for free :-D


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## rsblaski

Sharkie_Fan said:


> An external USB tuner seems to be the most obvious solution, since there are unused USB plugs on the existing products.


Although that may be the obvious solution, I don't think it would be the best (or cheapest).
A solution that would inject the OTA signals at or before the SWM (preferable) or multiswitch would send the OTA signals to ALL dvrs. If the solution were an external tuner for each box, that would exponential increase the cost for the user. I have to provide a disclaimer: I am in an area which has no HD reception possibilites due to mountain terrain. My .02 is simply to hopefully contribute to the needs of those who must have OTA.
Good luck,
Rick


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## donshan

I am in one of the small DMAs (#125) still totally dependent on OTA for our local HD network programs and PBS-HD programs. We have all five stations broadcasting in HD, but none are close to being on DirecTV yet. We are waiting to see what is delivered off D11 and how long it will take to get the HD uplinks running and also to get our PBS-HD local station on D11!

There are two main requirements:

1. Providing dual tuners and antenna input so reception is integrated with the D* programming without having to use a separate remote and switching to the OTA tuner in the HDTV or some other tuner on a separate HDTV input to watch either HD local channels or D* HD channels live.

2. Integrating the Guide "two weeks in advance" program data for the OTA channels with the D* channels so that searching and recording OTA HD and D* channel programs are done exactly the same way using the same buttons on the D* DVR so the user does not see any difference in OTA vs D* channels. The HR20 does this so a compete solution is provided now. That level of integration and local channel functionality must be preserved.

It is this second Guide DVR recording of OTA locals that is the most important issue. We watch 90% of our programs off the DVR, since many programs on both OTA and D* require time shifting. In our case we are lucky to to have our local PBS-HD station broadcasting the national PBS-HD feed 24/7. It was only by recording HD episodes of Ken Burn's "The War" in the wee AM hours that we were able to watch the entire series in HD. D* provided complete PBS Guide data for our local PBS station in my HR20-700. I am sure this is an extra expense to keep all the local channel Guides up to date in up to 210 DMAs, especially for channels not currently supported in the D* HD locals like PBS-HD.

Any "solution" I would find satisfactory MUST include local HD channel program Guide data that is searchable and recordable on the D* DVR. In principle when they get our local HD stations for ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX , *AND our PBS-HD* ( total of five) up and running on D11 with Guide program data, I will consider that a satisfactory "solution" to giving up my OTA antenna .

So their "solution" needs to tell me the date they will get all of the "Big five" LIL HD channels in all the small DMAs that will have those local HD stations on the air by whenever in 2008 the 1500 LIL channels are allocated . If that level of D* LIL HD coverage is not going to be nationally available in 2008, then a HR20 type HD DVR with dual OTA tuners with Guide support must remain available.

Just to be clear, I recognize that many small DMAs will not have all "big five"HD local broadcast stations running by 2008 (some DMAs may still have no HD) and they may then get less than five D* HD locals on D11, but they should receive all the HD stations they have available OTA, OR D* should continue to support an OTA HD DVR for them.


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## Doug Brott

jtn said:


> 2nd, I think if they are going to force customers to pay extra for OTA by adding external devices they should credit the customers accounts to cover the cost over time.


Really? You want DIRECTV to provide something to you for free and then charge nothing for it per month?


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## Sixto

Coffey77 said:


> I wonder, every time this discussion appears, how many people out there have an HR20-700,-100 don't have any OTA connected to it.


In this forum, I know lots of people with OTA.

In the real world (neighbors, friends, relatives), don't know a single person with OTA.


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## Tom Robertson

I can see jtn's point. It has been a staple feature on all HD-DVRs and HD receivers from DIRECTV so charging for it now seems like un-ringing a bell.

And it would be difficult to have HR20s include the feature for free and then (potentially) price it as an option for HR21. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## jtn

Doug Brott said:


> Really? You want DIRECTV to provide something to you for free and then charge nothing for it per month?


You are paying with the purchase of services, premium packages, etc. Cable TV doesn't charge for OTA or equipment, Verizon FiOS TV doesn't charge for OTA or equipment, and neither does Dish Network.

Doesn't make sense they would change a free service (OTA) to begin with to add cost to the customer.

I just feel it was not a good idea to eliminate OTA in the IRD/STB they make. Why take away what works for the customer by adding more expenses that other carriers don't?


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## psychobabbler

donshan said:


> I am in one of the small DMAs (#125) still totally dependent on OTA for our local HD network programs and PBS-HD programs. We have all five stations broadcasting in HD, but none are close to being on DirecTV yet. We are waiting to see what is delivered off D11 and how long it will take to get the HD uplinks running and also to get our PBS-HD local station on D11!
> 
> There are two main requirements:
> 
> 1. Providing dual tuners and antenna input so reception is integrated with the D* programming without having to use a separate remote and switching to the OTA tuner in the HDTV or some other tuner on a separate HDTV input to watch either HD local channels or D* HD channels live.
> 
> 2. Integrating the Guide "two weeks in advance" program data for the OTA channels with the D* channels so that searching and recording OTA HD and D* channel programs are done exactly the same way using the same buttons on the D* DVR so the user does not see any difference in OTA vs D* channels. The HR20 does this so a compete solution is provided now. That level of integration and local channel functionality must be preserved.
> 
> It is this second Guide DVR recording of OTA locals that is the most important issue. We watch 90% of our programs off the DVR, since many programs on both OTA and D* require time shifting. In our case we are lucky to to have our local PBS-HD station broadcasting the national PBS-HD feed 24/7. It was only by recording HD episodes of Ken Burn's "The War" in the wee AM hours that we were able to watch the entire series in HD. D* provided complete PBS Guide data for our local PBS station in my HR20-700. I am sure this is an extra expense to keep all the local channel Guides up to date in up to 210 DMAs, especially for channels not currently supported in the D* HD locals like PBS-HD.
> 
> Any "solution" I would find satisfactory MUST include local HD channel program Guide data that is searchable and recordable on the D* DVR. In principle when they get our local HD stations for ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX , *AND our PBS-HD* ( total of five) up and running on D11 with Guide program data, I will consider that a satisfactory "solution" to giving up my OTA antenna .
> 
> So their "solution" needs to tell me the date they will get all of the "Big five" LIL HD channels in all the small DMAs that will have those local HD stations on the air by whenever in 2008 the 1500 LIL channels are allocated . If that level of D* LIL HD coverage is not going to be nationally available in 2008, then a HR20 type HD DVR with dual OTA tuners with Guide support must remain available.
> 
> Just to be clear, I recognize that many small DMAs will not have all "big five"HD local broadcast stations running by 2008 (some DMAs may still have no HD) and they may then get less than five D* HD locals on D11, but they should receive all the HD stations they have available OTA, OR D* should continue to support an OTA HD DVR for them.


I'm totally with you on this one. I don't even have SD locals from D* yet, so the OTA option is essential for me as a customer, otherwise I have to go to *gasp* cable to get the two HD locals that we get (out of 4) or to Dish, and settle for SD locals. I like D* too much to consider these options, but that would be the only way where I live currently. My TV also has no built in tuner, so doubly would suck for me...


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## Knon2000

Tom Robertson said:


> I can see jtn's point. It has been a staple feature on all HD-DVRs and HD receivers from DIRECTV so charging for it now seems like un-ringing a bell.
> 
> And it would be difficult to have HR20s include the feature for free and then (potentially) price it as an option for HR21.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


What makes people so sure that they won't continue manufacturing HR20's? Seems like everyone assumes that they are done. 
Kevin


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## Koz

Tom Robertson said:


> I can see jtn's point. It has been a staple feature on all HD-DVRs and HD receivers from DIRECTV so charging for it now seems like un-ringing a bell.
> 
> And it would be difficult to have HR20s include the feature for free and then (potentially) price it as an option for HR21.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


There's a precedent for D* offering something for free at one time and then charging in the future such as HDNet and Universal HD. Not saying they will, but I could see allowing those with HR20's to be "grandfathered" into having free OTA, and those in the future having to pay for it.


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## Doug Brott

jtn said:


> You are paying with the purchase of services, premium packages, etc. Cable TV doesn't charge for OTA or equipment, Verizon FiOS TV doesn't charge for OTA or equipment, and neither does Dish Network.
> 
> Doesn't make sense they would change a free service (OTA) to begin with to add cost to the customer.
> 
> I just feel it was not a good idea to eliminate OTA in the IRD/STB they make. Why take away what works for the customer by adding more expenses that other carriers don't?


Perhaps, but looking at it from a business perspective, I'd have to consider if the folks that want OTA would be willing to pay or not .. and if not, would they be leaving DIRECTV if it weren't there. Certainly I don't know the answer to that, but looking at it on the surface, I can see why DIRECTV would want to switch this feature from a free service to a pay-for service. The folks that really want access to it would still have an option.


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## gregftlaud

How about ....when people call in for an install or a receiver replacement the csr and/or dtv protection plan dept asks the customer if they need a receiver with OTA capablities and then send out the appropriate receiver. Doesnt seem to hard!


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## Tom Robertson

jtn said:


> You are paying with the purchase of services, premium packages, etc. Cable TV doesn't charge for OTA or equipment, Verizon FiOS TV doesn't charge for OTA or equipment, and neither does Dish Network.
> 
> Doesn't make sense they would change a free service (OTA) to begin with to add cost to the customer.
> 
> I just feel it was not a good idea to eliminate OTA in the IRD/STB they make. Why take away what works for the customer by adding more expenses that other carriers don't?


Comcast here does not have OTA in their DVRs or STBs. They don't send all the subchannels either.

For that matter, I am unaware of any cable company supplied STBs/DVRs that include OTA; tho I can be ignorant. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## jtn

Doug Brott said:


> Perhaps, but looking at it from a business perspective, I'd have to consider if the folks that want OTA would be willing to pay or not .. and if not, would they be leaving DIRECTV if it weren't there. Certainly I don't know the answer to that, but looking at it on the surface, I can see why DIRECTV would want to switch this feature from a free service to a pay-for service. The folks that really want access to it would still have an option.


Carriage and FCC rules don't permit the charging of free programming that one can get OTA, whether it be SD or HD programming on ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC,PBS. If a customer can get these channels free why would they pay for it? DirecTV is already offering it for free, why change if competitors are not.

It's only a matter of time for all other carriers (Cable companies like Comcast, Verizon FiOS, Dish Network) to add the same quantity of HD programming, and they wont charge for OTA. Plus they wont add to the cost of programming to remain competitive. They (carriers) won't have a choice but to keep competitive.

Yes Doug if you are an investor or have stock in DirecTV, it's in your best interest for them to charge customer more, so you get a better return annually, or in your commissions. Customers will just switch once the programming and services they want are available from another source.


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## Tom Robertson

Jtn, OTA is not carriage, does not qualify as must carry rules, etc. DIRECTV, Dish, cable companies could charge for the use of the feature.

I think, at this point, it would be foolhardy to charge monthly for OTA. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Coffey77

I can see DIRECTV either offering a credit for an OTA tuner or even providing one for free to those whom ask or qualify with certain criteria...

They'll still be saving quite a bit of money.


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## w6fxj

Tom Robertson said:


> I can see jtn's point. It has been a staple feature on all HD-DVRs and HD receivers from DIRECTV so charging for it now seems like un-ringing a bell.
> 
> And it would be difficult to have HR20s include the feature for free and then (potentially) price it as an option for HR21.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


 Tom: IMHO DirecTV can quickly and easily solve this problem by providing installers with both HR20 and HR21 DVR's. Then provide for both HR20 and HR21 in the on-line ordering web page. Finally add a question for the CSR to ask a subscriber when they order an HD DVR whether they want or need the OTA capability.


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## Ken S

DirecTV does NOT give OTA for free now. To test call them up and cancel your satellite package and see if you can watch the OTAs through your DirecTV STB. Any signal that goes INTO a currently available DirecTV STB costs you something to get it out of that box.

As for charging extra for channels that used to be part of a package...well isn't that what they've done with HDNet and HDNMovies?


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## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> Jtn, OTA is not carriage, does not qualify as must carry rules, etc. DIRECTV, Dish, cable companies could charge for the use of the feature.
> 
> I think, at this point, it would be foolhardy to charge monthly for OTA.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Agreed Tom. And perhaps DIRECTV won't even charge, but instead point you to the manufacturer solution that works - that's yet to be seen. In that situation, the customer would still have to pay, but they would not be paying DIRECTV. DIRECTV would still be making zero on the entire solution.


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## Tom Robertson

w6fxj said:


> Tom: IMHO DirecTV can quickly and easily solve this problem by providing installers with both HR20 and HR21 DVR's. Provide for both HR20 and HR21 in the on-line ordering web page and finally add a question for the CSR to ask a subscriber when they order an HD DVR whether they want or need the OTA capability.


While this would likely mean the installing companies would have to change their process significantly (often drivers only have just enough receivers for their workload that day), I completely agree this would be a suitable solution.

Another thought relating to the free or not free discussion. DIRECTV could perhaps have a policy of 2 free tuners per household and maybe even more in areas not yet served by HD-LILs

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken S

Doug Brott said:


> Agreed Tom. And perhaps DIRECTV won't even charge, but instead point you to the manufacturer solution that works - that's yet to be seen. In that situation, the customer would still have to pay, but they would not be paying DIRECTV. DIRECTV would still be making zero on the entire solution.


Doug,

I'd bet they'd charge something for making the EPG available for the OTAs.


----------



## flipptyfloppity

Tom Robertson:
OTA most definitely does fall under must carry. Just digital OTA doesn't.

Closing threads because DTV has said "we will have a solution" with no info about when or what it is seems awfully forward. I can imagine the concern expressed on here led to DTV's giving information that they will have a solution. I for one would like to know more, including whether it records OTA or not, whether it has one OTA tuner or two. And most importantly, when it is. If it's gonna be two weeks, maybe I'd accept an HR21, if it's going to be 9 months, there's no way. Also, I want to know the cost, is DTV going to charge me for OTA? If so, how much? Up front or by month? Will this solution be integrated into any future MRV?

In short, now that DTV is treating OTA as a 2nd class citizen, what effects will this have?


----------



## spartanstew

Coffey77 said:


> I wonder, every time this discussion appears, how many people out there have an HR20-700,-100 don't have any OTA connected to it.


Lots, including me.



Terry K said:


> Well, alot of people don't *know* what they can get OTA for FREE. You know how many people don't know that Weather Plus, for example, is a very good replacement for The Weather channel? (TWC is useless to me on D* since I can't get local conditions) Also the extra PBS including PBS-HD is a plus for me.
> 
> I like getting all I can get for free :-D


And just as many people know and don't care. I know exactly which extra channels I could get OTA and would never watch any of them.

But for those of you that do utilize OTA, I'm glad D* is reassuring you that the ability won't be going away ( just like several of us have tried to do for the last couple of weeks).


----------



## Doug Brott

jtn said:


> Carriage and FCC rules don't permit the charging of free programming that one can get OTA, whether it be SD or HD programming on ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC,PBS. If a customer can get these channels free why would they pay for it? DirecTV is already offering it for free, why change if competitors are not.


This is not a matter of whether DIRECTV has to carry these channels or not. Clearly they don't since most DIRECTV receiver types support no form of OTA capability. DIRECTV is also not limiting your reception of these channels .. use the ATSC receiver from your television and bypass DIRECTV altogether .. Yes, you want the recording capabilities of the HR20 and that is understandable, but you still can get it for free.

DIRECTV may end up charging simply because they can - regardless of the competition .. If it backfires, then the market will show the results. The facts that I have been given from a couple of different sources indicate that OTA is only necessary for a small percentage of the user base .. Much of the user base at DBSTalk.com falls into this "small percentage" category, though. DIRECTV may in fact decide that it just makes better business sense to provide a "free" or nearly free solution for OTA when folks need it and otherwise simply not worry about it.


----------



## jtn

Doug Brott said:


> Agreed Tom. And perhaps DIRECTV won't even charge, but instead point you to the manufacturer solution that works - that's yet to be seen. In that situation, the customer would still have to pay, but they would not be paying DIRECTV. DIRECTV would still be making zero on the entire solution.


I'm glad we agree that what a customer can get for free without signing up for any carrier shouldn't be charged for it. Local affiliates that transmit SD/HD over the air, don't charge people who receive these signals, as the FCC doesn't permit it and they are permitted to record it whether it be analog/digital for no fee. People can buy DVR/combo units that get (receive) digital/analog signals and won't have to pay a fee to anyone for ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC,PBS, the channels that already are free tv. Newer televsions have tuners built in for reception of digital/analog TV. And in 2009 the government may subsidize the cost for converters for the public who don't want HD and want to use their analog sets.


----------



## Doug Brott

flipptyfloppity said:


> Tom Robertson:
> OTA most definitely does fall under must carry. Just digital OTA doesn't.


Only in the sense that if one LiL channel is distributed via Satellite, all of them that want to be distributed must be (for each DMA).

That's not what's being discussed here. What is being discussed is reception by the HR20/HR21 of signals over the air and there are no rules governing must-carry there. OTA is from the stations themselves and is not even being distributed by DIRECTV.


----------



## Doug Brott

jtn said:


> I'm glad we agree that what a customer can get for free without signing up for any carrier shouldn't be charged for it. Local affiliates that transmit SD/HD over the air, don't charge people who receive these signals, as the FCC doesn't permit it and they are permitted to record it whether it be analog/digital for no fee. People can buy DVR/combo units that get (receive) digital/analog signals and won't have to pay a fee to anyone for ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC,PBS, the channels that already are free tv. Newer televsions have tuners built in for reception of digital/analog TV. And in 2009 the government may subsidize the cost for converters for the public who don't want HD and want to use their analog sets.


Personally, I don't think DIRECTV should (whether able to or not) charge per month for OTA. They could via certain fee structures, but I don't think that would help anyone. I do understand the need/desire of DIRECTV to recoup some of the cost of the STBs and if they are providing external devices I can see that it would make sense to charge extra for those devices.

Tom hit on a solution that would likely be satisfactory to a lot of the folks that would be affected by this and that is to provide two ATSC tuners for free (to those who need it) and then charge more for additional (extra receivers, etc.). That would minimize the costs even farther and keep most folks happy at the same time.


----------



## Tom Robertson

flipptyfloppity said:


> Tom Robertson:
> OTA most definitely does fall under must carry. Just digital OTA doesn't.
> 
> Closing threads because DTV has said "we will have a solution" with no info about when or what it is seems awfully forward. I can imagine the concern expressed on here led to DTV's giving information that they will have a solution. I for one would like to know more, including whether it records OTA or not, whether it has one OTA tuner or two. And most importantly, when it is. If it's gonna be two weeks, maybe I'd accept an HR21, if it's going to be 9 months, there's no way. Also, I want to know the cost, is DTV going to charge me for OTA? If so, how much? Up front or by month? Will this solution be integrated into any future MRV?
> 
> In short, now that DTV is treating OTA as a 2nd class citizen, what effects will this have?


SD channels carried by satellite is not OTA. OTA is over the air, not over the satellite.  So I stand by my statement, there is no requirement for OTA itself.

I've not closed discussion, just steered it into a thread with an annoucement. And that had better be the last public statement about moderation. PM a moderator.

I can't envision a solution that did not include being able to record OTA.

As to the rest of your questions, I do not have answers to be shared.

As to 2nd class citizen, I have 2 questions for you. 1) Isn't DIRECTVs first role to provide cable content? 2) If you can get an HR20 today, how is that really 2nd class?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jtn

flipptyfloppity said:


> Tom Robertson:
> OTA most definitely does fall under must carry. Just digital OTA doesn't.


In 2009 there will be no analog, only digital and yes it will still be under must carry, for ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC, & PBS. These networks will always transmit free tv and it will be HD/digital in @ February 2009 deadline per Congress. I doubt the FCC will change this simply when it goes all digital in 2009.


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## Tom Robertson

jtn said:


> In 2009 there will be no analog, only digital and yes it will still be under must carry, for ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC, & PBS. These networks will always transmit free tv and it will be HD/digital in @ February 2009 deadline per Congress. I doubt the FCC will change this simply when it goes all digital in 2009.


Again, only in DMAs covered by DIRECTV and it still is not OTA, the feature being discussed.


----------



## billsharpe

A statement from DirecTV that "we will have a solution" for OTA is encouraging.

What's discouraging is the lack of any additional information, such as 

When?

How?

How much will it cost?

The devil is in the details...

Bill


----------



## jtn

Tom Robertson said:


> Again, only in DMAs covered by DIRECTV and it still is not OTA, the feature being discussed.


OTA= Free television provided by broadcaster in all DMA areas, those networks are ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC & PBS. They are going all digital per FCC law in February of 2009. This is free television, people don't have to pay to watch or record it.

Tom it certainly is over the air free tv we are talking about. OTA as it stands with HR20 units are not transmitted via satellite if you connect the outdoor antenna to the antenna in the back of the unit. The HR20 can only get free OTA so yes we are talking about OTA.

Now if DirecTV is providing locals via satellite, they usually include that for free with premium packages, with basic packages that are less costly they will charge a $5.99 fee, that I don't have issues with.


----------



## Tom Robertson

billsharpe said:


> A statement from DirecTV that "we will have a solution" for OTA is encouraging.
> 
> What's discouraging is the lack of any additional information, such as
> 
> When?
> 
> How?
> 
> How much will it cost?
> 
> The devil is in the details...
> 
> Bill


$299 one-time(less credits/specials/discounts)/$0 monthly available today at many "Brick and mortar" stores everywhere.  (How is HR20, btw.)

As for other solutions, does it matter today when you have a solution today?

That is the part I guess I don't really understand. We have a solution today, we have a commitment of another solution tomorrow (figuratively). I can see questions as to "Should I accept an HR21 installation today?", but I have problems with any major angst (not saying you've expressed angst, Bill, just that others still seem to be).

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Herdfan

Tom Robertson said:


> (Keeping the HR20 as a receiver for a long time can be a great one, don't forget.)


Yes it can. 

However, if those in the supply chain (big boxes & installation co.'s) don't order it from D*, then they might as well not make it.

And it seems D* can't even guarantee what receiver you get when you order it form them, so until these issues are corrected, I don't see this as a solution.


----------



## Doug Brott

jtn said:


> OTA= Free television provided by broadcaster in all DMA areas, those networks are ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC & PBS. They are going all digital per FCC law in February of 2009. This is free television, people don't have to pay to watch or record it.
> 
> Tom it certainly is over the air free tv we are talking about. OTA as it stands with HR20 units are not transmitted via satellite if you connect the outdoor antenna to the antenna in the back of the unit. The HR20 can only get free OTA so yes we are talking about OTA.
> 
> Now if DirecTV is providing locals via satellite, they usually include that for free with premium packages, with basic packages that are less costly they will charge a $5.99 fee, that I don't have issues with.


yes, OTA is over the air, but there are no must carry rules for providing anything via OTA. via Satellite, yes, via aerial antenna on your roof, no.


----------



## flipptyfloppity

Tom Robertson said:


> As to 2nd class citizen, I have 2 questions for you. 1) Isn't DIRECTVs first role to provide cable content? 2) If you can get an HR20 today, how is that really 2nd class?


I didn't mean to be overly pejorative with the 2nd class citizen thing. I simply meant to say that now it's pretty clear DTV treats SAT and OTA differently. SAT is getting more priority (in that the HR21 even exists) than OTA.

So, now that we can tell DTV sees the two as different things, the question comes up how differently would they treat them? It's an open question. I'm not meaning to say that I know how differently they will treat them, just throwing out ways in which they could treat them differently.

Cause as I posted before, it's a big difference. If the solution is the "Pro" receiver we saw hints of before and it's gonna cost hundreds of dollars more or won't be here for a year, many would do well to insist on an HR20 today. If it's an add-on and it's going to be ready in a few weeks, then many might want to take an HR21 and say "well, I'll get OTA later" (and then maybe find they didn't care about it at all before they even get it).

And it's also good to remember a lot of this came up because installers and retailers are telling people the HR21 replaces the HR20, so to just say that "you can get an HR20 today" doesn't allay a lot of fears. At the least, D* should work on getting more accurate information out, and not just to the whiners on here, but to the channels too.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jtn said:


> OTA= Free television provided by broadcaster in all DMA areas, those networks are ABC,CBS,CW,FOX,NBC & PBS. They are going all digital per FCC law in February of 2009. This is free television, people don't have to pay to watch or record it.
> 
> Tom it certainly is over the air free tv we are talking about. OTA as it stands with HR20 units are not transmitted via satellite if you connect the outdoor antenna to the antenna in on the back of the unit. The HR20 can only get free OTA so yes we are talking about OTA.
> 
> Now if DirecTV is providing locals via satellite, they usually include that for free with premium packages, the basic they will charge a $5.99 fee, that I don't have issues with.


You are not using OTA as defined by most people. OTA means attach an antenna and get it free. Re-transmission of broadcast channels is 1) not free on (almost) any carrier; 2) not OTA, it is no longer over the air (as defined by convention).

Cable and satellite companies do not give OTA away, they charge at least a basic fee for retransmitted channels; nor do they have OTA in any cable STB I have ever seen; they retransmit.

The HR20 does do 2 different things: 1) receive OTA, 2) receive (where available) re-transmitted digital local channels.

Lastly, yes I am very aware that full power, analog OTA goes away starting February 18, 2009, 478 days from now. Low power, Class A, and translator stations can remain analog after that date.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

flipptyfloppity said:


> I didn't mean to be overly pejorative with the 2nd class citizen thing. I simply meant to say that now it's pretty clear DTV treats SAT and OTA differently. SAT is getting more priority (in that the HR21 even exists) than OTA.
> 
> So, now that we can tell DTV sees the two as different things, the question comes up how differently would they treat them? It's an open question. I'm not meaning to say that I know how differently they will treat them, just throwing out ways in which they could treat them differently.
> 
> Cause as I posted before, it's a big difference. If the solution is the "Pro" receiver we saw hints of before and it's gonna cost hundreds of dollars more or won't be here for a year, many would do well to insist on an HR20 today. If it's an add-on and it's going to be ready in a few weeks, then many might want to take an HR21 and say "well, I'll get OTA later" (and then maybe find they didn't care about it at all before they even get it).
> 
> And it's also good to remember a lot of this came up because installers and retailers are telling people the HR21 replaces the HR20, so to just say that "you can get an HR20 today" doesn't allay a lot of fears. At the least, D* should work on getting more accurate information out, and not just to the whiners on here, but to the channels too.


Ok, sounds like we're good. And I agree, anyone needing OTA today should ignore the under-informed CSR or installer and insist upon an HR20. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## 911medic

I am happy to hear D* make some kind (if very general) statement on this issue.


RAD said:


> If someone wants a HD DVR and if their local DMA has the four major networks up on HD LIL service they get a HR21/H21. If they want a HR20/H20 they will pay extra to receive those boxes.
> 
> - If the local DMA does not have all four major networks on HD LIL service they can, if they request it, a HR20/H20.
> 
> - If you have a HR20/H20 and need a replacement D* will ship you the same model, they won't replace it with a HR21/H21.


I would have no problem with this scenario, or one where there's an option for some external OTA add-on tuner. I've never been opposed to D* making an effort to save money on equipment production costs, just to the possible elimination of options. Consumers are already having difficulty finding HR20's via retail channels or directly from D* (see the many "I was just in BB today and all they had were HR21s" posts). Having the ability to have OTA was a HUGE draw for me when I came to D*, and I don't want to lose it.


----------



## 69hokie

After reading this thread, I am am wondering if OTA is really a cost issue as has been illuded to. I have not looked at D*'s capital structure or balance sheet, but I wouldn't be surprised that at the end of the day, OTA or no OTA in a box is an insignificant differential cost for them. When people ususally talk about cost reduction it is as an expense item, not a capital item, although capital expenditures need control also. Since D* went down the road of leasing, it seems to me their boxes became "capital assets" that are depreciable, thus improved cash flow from deduction against income taxes. The box is a drop in the bucket compared to the two year income derived from the investment. I believe the bulk of their earnings are derived from their monthly service fees, not what they get from the box leases, and the box is simply an earnings producing depreciating asset of the company. Were it otherwise they wouldn't have a retention department, they would have a churn department. That said, I am glad to hear that they recognize the importance of OTA to many of their customers and are planning to accomodate their customer's desires. Tom is correct....wonder what the avenue will be.


----------



## 911medic

Knon2000 said:


> What makes people so sure that they won't continue manufacturing HR20's? Seems like everyone assumes that they are done.
> Kevin


I think that partially comes from people not being able to find them in brick and mortar stores (only HR21s), and not being able to confirm when ordering from a CSR that they'll get an HR20, not an HR21.


----------



## 911medic

Tom Robertson said:


> $299 one-time(less credits/specials/discounts)/$0 monthly available today at many "Brick and mortar" stores everywhere.  (How is HR20, btw.)
> 
> As for other solutions, does it matter today when you have a solution today?
> 
> That is the part I guess I don't really understand. We have a solution today, we have a commitment of another solution tomorrow (figuratively). I can see questions as to "Should I accept an HR21 installation today?", but I have problems with any major angst (not saying you've expressed angst, Bill, just that others still seem to be).
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


 But some have reported here not being able to find them in retail channels anymore, only HR21s.


> ...anyone needing OTA today should ignore the under-informed CSR or installer and insist upon an HR20.


Has anyone successfully done this since the HR21s came to market?


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## Drew2k

Koz said:


> There's a precedent for D* offering something for free at one time and then charging in the future such as HDNet and Universal HD. Not saying they will, but I could see allowing those with HR20's to be "grandfathered" into having free OTA, and those in the future having to pay for it.


There's also precedent for another DBS to charge a fee for use of the USB ports ... DISH charges a one-time fee to use USB drives to expand certain DISH DVRs. If DIRECTV creates a solution using USB, they might have to charge a one-time fee for the add-on device, but then it's yours to keep. Just speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if the add-on had a one-time cost, or indeed, if it was at no-cost...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Tom, I just stumbled onto this thread. Thanks for giving us the information you do have!


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## donshan

911medic said:


> But some have reported here not being able to find them in retail channels anymore, only HR21s.Has anyone successfully done this since the HR21s came to market?


After being told earlier this month by D* CSR that to be sure I would get an HR 20-700 I should go to BB or CC and buy one, and then call back for free install. I bought an HR20-700s on Oct 15 at CC and they had three on the shelf. CC clerk had not heard of the HR 21 at all. D* did the install this past Monday that went well.

I just checked CC website again and they still show HR-20s available for immediate delivery at our local store- no HR21 listed. I am in a DMA without D* HD locals, so perhaps inventory is still here.


----------



## mikeny

Coffey77 said:


> I wonder, every time this discussion appears, how many people out there have an HR20-700,-100 don't have any OTA connected to it. I can tell you about 10 of my friends don't. To me, that's a "waste" of a good OTA tuner.





Sixto said:


> In this forum, I know lots of people with OTA.
> 
> In the real world (neighbors, friends, relatives), don't know a single person with OTA.


I love my OTA and was a little surpised when during my recent install of an HR20 replacement, the tech said "nobody else has their antenna connected". Then again, I guess in DMAs where the Big 4 are covered, most people don't bother.


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## billsharpe

Tom Robertson said:


> $299 one-time(less credits/specials/discounts)/$0 monthly available today at many "Brick and mortar" stores everywhere.  (How is HR20, btw.)
> 
> As for other solutions, does it matter today when you have a solution today?
> 
> That is the part I guess I don't really understand. We have a solution today, we have a commitment of another solution tomorrow (figuratively). I can see questions as to "Should I accept an HR21 installation today?", but I have problems with any major angst (not saying you've expressed angst, Bill, just that others still seem to be).
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I've had one HR20 replaced and another one almost replaced -- found out in this forum that I needed to disconnect Ethernet connection to reboot properly. Right now it's working fine.

For me the concern is hypothetical at the moment. But I'd be very concerned about having to shell out $299 to get a replacement HR20 at a store, despite the possible future credits/discounts. I've got the monthly protection plan and I really want an HR20 from DirecTV if the current unit bites the dust.

In our area, FiOS offers the local PBS station in HD and also carries KCAL in HD, which has many Lakers and Dodgers games. Neither station is available from D* except OTA. And my 3-year old Samsung is HDTV ready, so I can't get OTA HD on it.

Bill


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## Ely

It's great to hear DirecTV is aware of our concerns, OTA is one of the main reasons I have stayed with DirecTV for such a long time; I don't see myself watching TV without being able to tune to my OFF-AIR channels.

I do hope D* soon provide us with more concrete and clear information on what their solution will be.


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## Ken984

I just refused an HR21 today, called on Friday and got a deal on a 2nd HR20, made sure I said HR20, the guy comes in and has an HR21. Tells me I am "lucky" to get one of these new ones(NOT). I asked him to call about getting me an "old" one,he called the warehouse and said he will bring an HR20 back tomorrow. I almost kept it but the promise of some future OTA module does not thrill me, besides will the new box support 1 OTA module or 2? If its not 2 its a crippled box IMO. If D* had LIL HD here I probably would have said ok but without that and no date as to when I just can't take "half" an HR20.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

69hokie said:


> After reading this thread, I am am wondering if OTA is really a cost issue as has been illuded to. I have not looked at D*'s capital structure or balance sheet, but I wouldn't be surprised that at the end of the day, OTA or no OTA in a box is an insignificant differential cost for them. When people ususally talk about cost reduction it is as an expense item, not a capital item, although capital expenditures need control also. Since D* went down the road of leasing, it seems to me their boxes became "capital assets" that are depreciable, thus improved cash flow from deduction against income taxes. The box is a drop in the bucket compared to the two year income derived from the investment. I believe the bulk of their earnings are derived from their monthly service fees, not what they get from the box leases, and the box is simply an earnings producing depreciating asset of the company. Were it otherwise they wouldn't have a retention department, they would have a churn department. That said, I am glad to hear that they recognize the importance of OTA to many of their customers and are planning to accomodate their customer's desires. Tom is correct....wonder what the avenue will be.


First off, let me say I agree with you 100% that the BIG money maker is our subscription fees. Equipment is a means to an end. That said, even with the equipment being capital assets, anything they can save in the manufacturing process is money in their pockets - remember, they're charging the same $299 for the HR21 as they are for the HR20 (depending of course on what discounts you may get to offset that).

Even if the difference in manufacturing with OTA vs. without was a "paltry" 20 cents.... that's a savings of 200,000 on an order of 1,000,000 units. Granted, if the box costs $100 to manufacture, you're only talking a savings of less than 1%, but it's still money saved.

And, certainly the OTA solution could turn out to be a profit center for DirecTV. Even if it costs them $49 to manufacture or purchase from a 3rd party vendor - and they can sell it for a $50 one time charge. That "insignificant" change in the manufacturing process (in this theoretical example) nets them $1.20 per receiver if the customer wants to use OTA. If not, they've simply saved twenty cents.


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## tonyd79

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Even if the difference in manufacturing with OTA vs. without was a "paltry" 20 cents.... that's a savings of 200,000 on an order of 1,000,000 units. Granted, if the box costs $100 to manufacture, you're only talking a savings of less than 1%, but it's still money saved.


Believe me, if the difference were a "paltry 20 cents" that would be vastly overridden by the cost of development, maintenance, distribution and support.

A large driving force for D* to make the interfaces the same was cost savings on support. The 20/21 decision seems to drive cost UP not down because of the requirement for a parallel track of development, manufacturing differences, maintenance of software, distribution and call center support.

I am still envisioning that D* is looking to the 21 series but may go with an adapter for OTA. We will see how well it works.

For now, I am a bit happier that they at least have told us they will work something out. I am still concerned about what the method will be as it could be costly, ineffective or difficult to implement.

Not completely mollified until I hear more than the conjecture of our happy little community.


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## gcisko

Tom Robertson said:


> $299 one-time(less credits/specials/discounts)/$0 monthly available today at many "Brick and mortar" stores everywhere.  (How is HR20, btw.)


So if they already have the solution, why did they use the word "will" in the statement you posted?


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## Tom Robertson

Perhaps as in "We will [always] have a solution"? But you do raise a good point.


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## kevinwmsn

How about using the Media Share that's in use now to share pics and music... Just allow us the stream the video feed from our pc (like MythTV/Windows Media Center/ maybe Slingbox). I know that's not ideal, but it could work.

Idea #2, get MRV going and make sure everyone has at least 1 HR20 and allow the HR21s access to HR20 recordings(just record the show u want to see on the other box). I know this could cause possible lack of tuners on the HR20 for recording purposes, but allow us the move the recordings from box to box.


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## 911medic

This issue becomes even more important to me now, as I have just lost access to my HD locals, unless I want to pay.

OTA saves the day (again)!


----------



## smitmw1

Since they have never came and out and said what if any intended purpose the usb ports have, I guess it is possible. 

Looking at USB devices of which I have two. (well two of the same, Dvico fusion)

Pros:
- can scan for its own channels
- recieves program/guide info via psip
- Dvico, if not all, supports both NTSC and ATSC (not to mention QAM)

Con: guesses anyway
- System integration. An amazing amount of forethought went into the design of the HR21 if a USB tuner can be plugged in and provide the same functionality as the HR20. 
Scenario 1: Fully integrated seemless operation. Equal to HR20
Scenario 2: Full use of device as tuner. Operation of unit seemlessly tied into guide. Works like HR20 with regard to sat signals but no recording of OTA
Scenario 3: Some sort of OTA sub guide that must be selected to tune device

Since DTV does not provide my locals in SD let alone HD any of the above would be acceptable to me. Should they choose to use such a device it would be nice to have the analog tuning that my HIRD-E86s provided. Haven't even seen a Fox broadcast since I swapped my E86s for H20s.

Now just in case they are listening. How about some sort of external device that can recieve 8VSB and remodulate it into some thing that the sat decoder can handle. Be it QPSK or whatever else it can accept. Imagine a powered BBC looking device with an input for the Sat and one for the antenna. Continue to provide guide data via the sat and voila. I guy can dream.


----------



## allenn

Well the HR21-700 is what they installed Saturday and Sunday. Unfortunately, that model does have ota capability which is what I ordered. The whole installation was a complete abortion. They sent a very nice inexperienced person who was totally clueless about installing the 5 LNB Dish. I could write pages about the installation, but it would only bore you. Let me say that D* is passing the buck regarding the installation. I suggest you do the install yourself.

Sunday, I was on the phone for two hours trying to get the HR21-700 swapped for a HR20. No dice. D* said that they could exchange what I have, but they would not guarantee it will not be another HR21 and it could even have a silver case instead of the black I received. I gave up. I still have my HR10 in the bedroom. Unfortunately, I will not be able to receive many of the HD local channels with the HR21.


----------



## spartanstew

allenn said:


> Well the HR21-700 is what they installed Saturday and Sunday. Unfortunately, that model does have ota capability which is what I ordered.


No, it does not have OTA.



allenn said:


> Let me say that D* is passing the buck regarding the installation.


Yes, they have always used third party installers. Some are great. Some aren't.



allenn said:


> D* said that they could exchange what I have, but they would not guarantee it will not be another HR21 and it could even have a silver case instead of the black I received.


Well, if you exchanged it and you did get an HR20, I could guarantee that it would have a silver case. Only the HR21 has a black case.

Regardless, it's a bummer this happened if you really wanted an HR20. I know it's too late now, but you should have refused the install. I'd also keep trying to contact D* (maybe even ask for retention) and see if you can either 1) get them to swap it for an HR20 or 2) allow you to ship it back and buy another from a B&M and receive bill credits for it.


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## gregftlaud

how about when u can tell us of this "solution" you start a new thread so we dont have to search and search thru this thread on the numerous essay like posts.


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## Doug Brott

gregftlaud said:


> how about when u can tell us of this "solution" you start a new thread so we dont have to search and search thru this thread on the numerous essay like posts.


I wouldn't worry too much about that .. word will get out when this happens ..


----------



## flipptyfloppity

Ultimately, it's D* who knows this info, or at least everyone who has it is under D*s control as to letting it out. So the only way D* is going to release it is if they see it makes sense to release the info. And one of D*s biggest sources of info (it appears) is this board. So I personally think it's great people let us all know (including D*) what they're thinking of D*s information and lack thereof.


----------



## Robert L

So are they going to continue making the HR20 or not? If they are then I don't see the point of talking about it, so apparently at some point they are stopping maybe? Personally I think that is insane but whatever! Do they really even know for sure what percent gets OTA? True most don't but maybe that might change as more HD sets are sold and people finally figure it out. 

Of course it don't matter unless they are using Directv. I cannot get HD locals right now in one area I'm in quite a lot, but even if I could unless they had CW and PBS I'd still use OTA. So if I have to get one OTA channel, then I end up getting them all. 

Is Dish dropping their OTA tuner? Anyway, if things stay the way they are now and two of my HR20's where to fail and I couldn't get a replacement. Well, if nothing had changed then I'd drop Directv without even thinking about it. Doubt they'd really care but that's fine, but they would be the ones losing $160 a month, not me.


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## vikingguy

Being in DMA in the 160s OTA is a must for me. This is a black and white issue as far as I am concerned. If direct has OTA I stay no OTA I cancell. I did not spend a few grand on hd-tvs to feed them crappy SD. I work many afternoons shifts so using my TVs tuner is worthless since I am at work during prime time programming. About 85% of my TV watching is the 4 major networks. Here is my solution keep it as is till every single DMA has all major HD stations including PBS and the weather sub channel. I have the protection plan if either of my HR20s die I fully expect another model with OTA in return. If direct drops OTA they better let me out of my contract for free because they changed the service to something substandard.

I pay for locals from direct tv that should include OTA IMO. If direct changes the rules on OTA it would be darn sleezy IMO. For people who have HD-tvs locals in HD is an essential service.


----------



## beckp

Response from a closed thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by beckp View Post
Well I for one use my local OTA's whenever possible, it offers the best pictures and I have many options available to me.

Regular analog cable
Regular analog cable is not one of the options with the new receivers.


"Available to me" .... for me I have three options to watch locals and I pick OTA every time (I still have regular analog available via another TV input, never said via DirecTV).


----------



## oldguy1

beckp said:


> Response from a closed thread:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by beckp View Post
> Well I for one use my local OTA's whenever possible, it offers the best pictures and I have many options available to me.
> 
> Regular analog cable
> Regular analog cable is not one of the options with the new receivers.
> 
> "Available to me" .... for me I have three options to watch locals and I pick OTA every time (I still have regular analog available via another TV input, never said via DirecTV).


I also prefer the OTA locals to the D* locals, plus pick up a couple of channels I can't get from D*.

Another add on "box" solution that will require more power at my already overloaded entertainment center will not be satisfactory at all.

Guess I'll get that coupon from the Government to put towards a converter and drop D*.


----------



## ATARI

The _solution_ is that there will be more locals available via satellite in the months to come.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I at a loss for most words after reading the responses to this thread...
I really am...

I guess you are all right... it is a conspiracy to screw the OTA people...
---------

To answer some the questions:
When will the solution be avialable: Some time in the next 5 years
What will the solution be: A device that accepts the OTA signal, and translates into something on HR series receiver can receive
Will it be recordable: Yes, as then what would the point be as you could just get any of the ATSC receives that will be on the market
Will it cost: Yes, most likely.... 


YES: Some of those answers are vague... why? Because that is all that we have to share right now... 

-----------

END OF THE DAY: Make your carrier decisions with the information on the table today... tomorrow isn't guaranteed... and the next day after that.. is subject to change.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Through all of these discussions........

Has anyone given a single point of benefit to DirecTV to provide ATSC support? Everything about the ATSC aspect of the boxes... costs DirecTV money. Everyone.

From physical equipment...
To software development...
To support tier...
To installation tier...

With DirecTV spending 10's of millions of dollars to get the Locals in HD on the SAT stream.... what is the upside to them also supporting ATSC?

Not what is the upside to you... to have a single box to cover everything you want... what is the upside to DirecTV doing it?

A fractional increase of subscribers? Maybe ? What percentage do you think it would be?

I know a *LOT* of you must have ATSC... 
I know a *LOT* of you think/feel ATSC is better for you...
I know a *LOT* of you must have the sub-channels...

But at the end of the day... is there enough of "you" that makes it a winning proposition for DirecTV?

The money/cost ect... that is spent on ATSC... is significantly higher then any of you have attempted to guess... No one here has "all" pieces to the puzzle.... I do have a few more then most, but even I don't have all the pieces.

So before people starting making the signs that they are 2nd class citizens.... take a step back... look at the bigger picture... look at all the facts that are known at this time.

And make your long term decision. 
If that means you are going to need to change carriers... or implement a 2nd box... or turn your anger towards the locals in your area to get off their butts and complete the process with DirecTV to get their signal on the SAT.... or what ever.....

End of the day:
For every one person that leaves DirecTV because of the lack of ATSC...
Another 10 are going to join to get access to all the new HD networks, and their locals via SAT.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Earl has a point. 

I guess my question is, how many people would pay more, whether in the initial hardware purchase or in the monthly service, for OTA. If it's not worth paying for, do you really need it?


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## houskamp

And thus the milion dollar question.. how many people are there.. I know that having it all integrated in one box is a big selling point for me (problably the main reason I have D* as apposed to nothing) but how many more like me are there? I am glad they did tell you they are planning on keeping it.. Thats good enough for me


----------



## RAD

Earl, if you lived in an area that didn't have HD LIL service, or was missing one or more of the four major networks, would you want to move to a service that didn't have a DVR that could receive those channels? 

If D* right now had all DMA's up with HD LIL service then OTA support would not be an issue, but they don't and it will be a while before they do. So IMHO right now they are putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage by not make DVR's with ATSC tuners available to people that require them to receive the big four networks.


----------



## Herdfan

Earl Bonovich said:


> But at the end of the day... is there enough of "you" that makes it a winning proposition for DirecTV?


Sadly, probably not.

ATSC was a must in the early days before D* had HD LIL. It probably kept them many higher-end customers that would have bailed for cable and its HD locals. But now that HD LIL's are available, the need for D* to provide ATSC is less than it was in the early days of HD.

Question: I think Tom mentioned aomthing about a "license" fee for the ATSC tuner. What is that about?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> Earl, if you lived in an area that didn't have HD LIL service, or was missing one or more of the four major networks, would you want to move to a service that didn't have a DVR that could receive those channels?
> 
> If D* right now had all DMA's up with HD LIL service then OTA support would not be an issue, but they don't and it will be a while before they do. So IMHO right now they are putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage by not make DVR's with ATSC tuners available to people that require them to receive the big four networks.


Well actually...

When I first got the HR10-250... I didn't have my CBS until they offered the DNS feeds.

So for about the first year... I had everything else in HD... but CBS (CSI) was in SD.

Even if D* had all the DMA's up with HD LIL... OTA would still be an issue to some.

What are the people out there doing that don't even have SD LIL available? Should NTSC support been in all their SD-DVRs for the last 7 years?

It is the same "competitive" disadvantage, that they have had for several years in the markets that they don't have SD-LIL but the other guys do.

So this is NOT unfamiliar territory for DirecTV (or any carrier).

Are they going to lose customers by their decision... Yes...
Are they going to gain customers with their decision... Yes... as there will be people that don't care, and will take what they can get.

Is it going to be enough to make a major impact to the bottom line.... probaby not... as when they add more DMA's and more networks in the existing DMAs... they are going to gain a heck of a lot more customers then they would be..

And that is the business they are in....

Reduce and limit the loss of customers (as they know they can't eliminate it).. at a rate, that is significantly smaller then the rate they can add new customers.

So as a business (I think everyone understands DirecTV is a FOR PROFIT corporation)... what is more important to them? Gaining another 500,000 customers by adding more DMA's with HD-LIL's (even if it is partial), or trying to hang on to the small percentages of people that leave because of the limited support for ATSC?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Herdfan said:


> Sadly, probably not.
> 
> ATSC was a must in the early days before D* had HD LIL. It probably kept them many higher-end customers that would have bailed for cable and its HD locals. But now that HD LIL's are available, the need for D* to provide ATSC is less than it was in the early days of HD.
> 
> Question: I think Tom mentioned aomthing about a "license" fee for the ATSC tuner. What is that about?


Use of ATSC tuners in devices includes monies sent to the technology license holders (Zenith? ATSC group?) While I gather they are a significant part of the costs we're talking about, I do not know a real sense of the amount per unit. (Or if it's per tuner.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## sagle

I really hope they keep an integrated dual tuner OTA option. If not I will have to evaluate my options and most likely drop D*

I really don't want to, but the perfect fit D* used to be for my TV viewing experience has been going downhill ....


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Earl Bonovich said:


> Through all of these discussions........
> 
> Has anyone given a single point of benefit to DirecTV to provide ATSC support? Everything about the ATSC aspect of the boxes... costs DirecTV money. Everyone.
> 
> From physical equipment...
> To software development...
> To support tier...
> To installation tier...


You're absolutely correct that ATSC support costs them money.

I think though, that the model it appears they're moving towards could make it a break even type scenario. Manufacture their products without ATSC support, but allow for some extra add on device that will allow the box to function as they currently do - with ATSC "integrated" into the box.

They can charge some amount of money to help recover the costs of development, etc... Whether it be an up front charge or some sort of monthly fee (a $5.99 OTA fee that covers every receiver in the house)... I don't know what the pay structure would need to be for D* to break even, but with this model, they're at least not putting unused equipment into EVERY box they deliver.

And I think they'd find there are probably alot of people who would pay "something" for ATSC support. D* would have to figure out what they need to charge compared with what the market will bear - and whether those numbers are close enough to make this a winning proposition. I would pay "somethign" to enable ATSC, depending on how much they want to charge...


----------



## Lee L

Earl, you make good points. However, I say the main reason people are up in arms about it is that up until now all the D* HD receivers also picked up OTA and were even advertised as such as a feature. Also, the providing of local tuners goes back way before just ATSC. Both Dish and DirecTV provided NTSC tuners in many of their receivers that allowed you to see the channels in the guide and tune in like the satellite provided content. 

Since D* did not have the ability to provide NTSC and later HD LiL, they choose to provide the local tuner capbility to be competitive. Now they do have LiL capbility, but it will take some time before people get used to what has always been the case changing. 

I think the best thing would be to just give people a choice of HR20 or HR21. I would guess that to most new HD customers, they have no desire to put up an antenna and will be perfectly happy without the OTA tuner capability.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I would pay "somethign" to enable ATSC, depending on how much they want to charge...


That is the magic statement...
Are their enough people that would be willing to PAY for something like that.... At a certain cost point, that will make it worth it to DirecTV?

Unfourently there is know way for them to know, unless they do it... but once they do it... they are down a one way road...

In the "BIG" picture... DirecTV has been down this path before.
The SD-LIL... even with the DVR aspects of it... none of the SD-DVRs had NTSC support (Even for just a straight out tune, not record).

None of the non-dvrs had an NTSC tuner for those areas...

So DirecTV has a historical reference point, for the impact it is going to have for the ENTIRE possible consumer base...

If they could attrack 2,000,000 more customers in existing DMA's by adding other channels in HD-LiL... or adding 20 more key DMA's.... and lose say 300,000 (which I think is a VERY EXTREME number), for the lack of ATSC... which way do you think they are going to go?

And again...
I understand EVERY SINGLE argument that people that need/ATSC have made... and I pretty much agree with all the reasons that they want/need (except the quality vs MPEG-4 locals).....

Sorry that I throwing out the other side of the argument... but if you want to have a discussion... someone has to play the role and point out the other side...


----------



## leww37334

If the cost of ATSC is as high as has been suggested, then shouldn't Directv have dropped the cost of the HR-21 when it came out, is it just coincidence that they charge the same for both units? 

This would not be the first time Directv has dropped capability without dropping price and then charged to add the capability back in (HD extra pack).


----------



## Doug Brott

Earl, you detailed much better than I did, but that's exactly right .. why would DIRECTV spend money on something that has a guaranteed zero dollar return? It is a true loss-leader to either (1) get a few extra subscribers or (2) throw a bone to some of the most loyal subscribers. The fact that they are making something available is great, IMHO.

Besides, a huge number of people who need and OTA solution already have it in the HR20 .. we're talking about the incremental difference at this point.


----------



## hasan

Tom Robertson said:


> While I think I know (and I think I know how) until DIRECTV tells Earl or I more, I can't say.
> 
> But everyone is welcome to surmise how a solution might work.


This is *very, very* good news! I don't care how they do it, or even if it adds some cost, as long as the *full functionality*, including the ability to record OTA-HD is there, I'll live with it, if not be outright happy about it.

Thanks so much for getting some "real" info to us. Even as sparse as it is, it is MUCH better than what has been going on, and I dearly hope the "mis-delivery" of receivers stops immediately (ordering with OTA and getting non-OTA receivers).

Next Tuesday is my install date for a new HR20-xxx ....I'm trying not to think about it at all, as the prospect of receiving the wrong receiver after all my phone calls to insure this does not happen, well...fill in the blank.

*Also, let me be the first to volunteer to test this "new solution"!*


----------



## gcisko

911medic said:


> This issue becomes even more important to me now, as I have just lost access to my HD locals, unless I want to pay.
> 
> OTA saves the day (again)!


What are you talking about? All D* packages include locals at no extra charge.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Earl Bonovich said:


> And again...
> I understand EVERY SINGLE argument that people that need/ATSC have made... and I pretty much agree with all the reasons that they want/need (except the quality vs MPEG-4 locals).....
> 
> Sorry that I throwing out the other side of the argument... but if you want to have a discussion... someone has to play the role and point out the other side...


I agree with you 100%.... They make absolutely NO money on ATSC support as of now. And certainly they'll gain more customers by adding more HD LILs than they'll lose by removing ATSC.

To kind of play devils advocate to your devil's advocate though.... With some market analysis and some study, they can probably make a pretty fair guess as to how many people would be willing to pay "something" for ATSC support. And from there make a determination as to whether they could offer an "integrated" ATSC solution that would result in at least a "break even" scenario.

That would allow them to have their cake and eat it too. 

But you're absolutely correct, they'll have NO way of KNOWING who will pay and who won't. If the go down that road it would be an educated guess that may or may not pay off. I would say though that if they approach it conservatively and carefully, it could be one of those risks that either pays off nicely, or... if it fails, you make sure that you're not any worse off than you are at this current point in time... allowing you to recover from your "mistake" without a great deal of hand wringing...


----------



## hasan

gcisko said:


> What are you talking about? All D* packages include locals at no extra charge.


No, what he is saying is that he has to pay the HD-Acess Fee (10 bucks per mo) in order to receiver his HD-LIL ...that didn't used to be the case, it is now (according to several people). It used to be if you paid for your SD locals, you got your HD-LIL at no additional cost. Now, *it seems*, that you have to pay the HD-Access fee, if you want HD Locals...no change in SD Locals.

I never noticed, because I've had HD from its first availability from D*.


----------



## houskamp

gcisko said:


> What are you talking about? All D* packages include locals at no extra charge.


ALL? more like some and for a few none... for example here we get fox and abc, thats all....


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> I at a loss for most words after reading the responses to this thread...
> I really am...
> 
> I guess you are all right... it is a conspiracy to screw the OTA people...


If you say so it is OK with me. I guess the problem is the problem was solved via the HR20. Now it seems not so much.



Earl Bonovich said:


> To answer some the questions:
> When will the solution be avialable: Some time in the next 5 years
> What will the solution be: A device that accepts the OTA signal, and translates into something on HR series receiver can receive
> Will it be recordable: Yes, as then what would the point be as you could just get any of the ATSC receives that will be on the market
> Will it cost: Yes, most likely....


I do not understand. We already have the solution. What is this 5 year stuff?



Earl Bonovich said:


> YES: Some of those answers are vague... why? Because that is all that we have to share right now...


"We"??? So you are affiliated with DirecTV??? I do not understand.



Earl Bonovich said:


> END OF THE DAY: Make your carrier decisions with the information on the table today... tomorrow isn't guaranteed... and the next day after that.. is subject to change.


Gotcha...


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

gcisko said:


> What are you talking about? All D* packages include locals at no extra charge.


Only if they offer them.

My DMA has no HD locals via Satellite. And there are ALOT at this point that have no HD locals via Satellite.

For me, the only way to watch network television in HD is via the HR20. I have an older HD set with no ATSC tuner built in. IF my HR20 were to break and they tried to replace with an HR21, I would lose 90% of the HD programming that I watch.

Hence... OTA is an important feature for me... at least at this point in time.

As Earl has pointed out, there are many (myself included) who would probably overlook the lack of OTA if D* was offering our HD Locals.... I don't watch the subchannels. Our subchannels don't really have content that interests me. Even PBS... the subchannels here are mainly Spanish programming, which doesn't help me any as even after 4years of High School Spanish and 2 in college, (10+ years ago)... I dont have a firm enough grasp of it to watch TV in Spanish...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

leww37334 said:


> If the cost of ATSC is as high as has been suggested, then shouldn't Directv have dropped the cost of the HR-21 when it came out, is it just coincidence that they charge the same for both units?
> 
> This would not be the first time Directv has dropped capability without dropping price and then charged to add the capability back in (HD extra pack).


Why?

They are already "selling" the HR20 at a significant loss (anywhere from $150 - $500)....

So the drop of the ATSC equipment inside the HR21... reduces the loss they are taking on the boxes.

This wasn't a drop of the ATSC to help the customer's cost, but one to help reduce their cost.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gcisko said:


> What are you talking about? All D* packages include locals at no extra charge.


HD LIL's require the HD Access Pack

As for why?

One of the reasons:
More and more of the affiliates are demanding PAYMENT for access to their HD feeds..


----------



## gcisko

hasan said:


> No, what he is saying is that he has to pay the HD-Acess Fee (10 bucks per mo) in order to receiver his HD-LIL ...that didn't used to be the case, it is now (according to several people). It used to be if you paid for your SD locals, you got your HD-LIL at no additional cost. Now, *it seems*, that you have to pay the HD-Access fee, if you want HD Locals...no change in SD Locals.
> 
> I never noticed, because I've had HD from its first availability from D*.


Oh I never realized that. If true, I guess it would not bother me so much as I personally pay for the HD. Especially now that they are actually offering the channels in HD.


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> If they could attrack 2,000,000 more customers in existing DMA's by adding other channels in HD-LiL... or adding 20 more key DMA's.... and lose say 300,000 (which I think is a VERY EXTREME number), for the lack of ATSC... which way do you think they are going to go?


Earl, they could still attract 2,000,000 more customers by adding HD-LIL while still having ATSC tuners in their DVR's, removing the tuner has nothing to do with it especially since D* is not lowering the consumer cost for the DVR, it's not like saying come to D* we've lower our DVR cost.

As for loosing 300,000, maybe not loose but lose the oppertunity to add some. LIN TV, which has played hard ball with DBS and cable on ATSC retransmission, according to their web site (http://www.lintv.com/about/television.html), reaches an average of 11.5 million households. Unless D* and LIN come to an agreement farily quickly IMHO D* will be at a disadvantage in those markets and that's a large pool of potential households.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gcisko said:


> If you say so it is OK with me. I guess the problem is the problem was solved via the HR20. Now it seems not so much.


SARCASIM......



gcisko said:


> I do not understand. We already have the solution. What is this 5 year stuff?


SARCASIM......



gcisko said:


> "We"??? So you are affiliated with DirecTV??? I do not understand.


"WE" as in the folks here at DBSTalk that are in contact with those at DirecTV... I though it was pretty clear what our relationship was like....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> Earl, they could still attract 2,000,000 more customers by adding HD-LIL while still having ATSC tuners in their DVR's, removing the tuner has nothing to do with it especially since D* is not lowering the consumer cost for the DVR, it's not like saying come to D* we've lower our DVR cost.
> 
> As for loosing 300,000, maybe not loose but lose the oppertunity to add some. LIN TV, which has played hard ball with DBS and cable on ATSC retransmission, according to their web site (http://www.lintv.com/about/television.html), reaches an average of 11.5 million households. Unless D* and LIN come to an agreement farily quickly IMHO D* will be at a disadvantage in those markets and that's a large pool of potential households.


IMHO... LIN situation is just a joke... and the people in those DMA's should really get on their case... as it is just crazy that they are demanding payment for their signal. (as if I was an affiliate... I would want my signal to get out to as many possible customers as possible..... thus I could charge more to my advertisters as I would have a larger base of users)

But the LIN aspect is an argument for another day.

What if those 2,000,000 customers... not one of them use ATSC....
Then if each tuner costs $20... that is $80,000,000 of cost to DirecTV... for something that is not used...

The drop of the ATSC and the costs associated, is reducing the LOSS DirecTV takes on each one of the HR series units that go out.


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sorry that I throwing out the other side of the argument... but if you want to have a discussion... someone has to play the role and point out the other side...


No problem. PLease just understand that "your side" was only ~15% of the respondants in the Great OTA debate.

Someone else mentioned the 40:1 thing about non-OTA versus OTA. When my HR20 was installed I also would have been one of the 40. That is because I was uneducated at to what it really was and what it would do for me. Now after experiencing it, the discussion is rather silly for me.

Back to the 40:1: I still do not know why that is such a hard and fast number as it was just one installer's word. I still would like to see some real study that D* did on this to be sure. I mean not that I don't believe my dear dear friends or nothing, but you know... I am just saying  :lol:


----------



## Herdfan

Earl Bonovich said:


> If they could attrack 2,000,000 more customers in existing DMA's by adding other channels in HD-LiL... or adding 20 more key DMA's.... and lose say 300,000 (which I think is a VERY EXTREME number), for the lack of ATSC... which way do you think they are going to go?


You are looking at this as an either/or situation. It is not. I can't imagine D* has lost a single customer because there was an OTA solution in the box.

Here is a solution: Order a run of HR20's. Keep them separate from HR21's and make them only available as a special order. Sell (lease) them for $399. When and if they run out, order more. D* then has a way of covering its extra costs while providing customers with something they want.


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> Through all of these discussions........
> 
> Has anyone given a single point of benefit to DirecTV to provide ATSC support? Everything about the ATSC aspect of the boxes... costs DirecTV money. Everyone.


All really good points from a strictly bussiness making money point of view. My question is who is the one that put OTA in the HR20 in the first place? Look at all the trouble that has caused. If it were never planned or implemented the road would be much easier to travel. Now that you have it enabled, removing is seems like a worse mistake. Surely they must realize this. I hope the person in question got what they deserve (promotion or whatever).


----------



## gcisko

Stuart Sweet said:


> Earl has a point.
> 
> I guess my question is, how many people would pay more, whether in the initial hardware purchase or in the monthly service, for OTA. If it's not worth paying for, do you really need it?


Again... Since we already have this? What are you talking about with "how much would you pay"???


----------



## AllThumbs

HR21 installed on Saturday after repeated comments like "the HR21 is not yet in the field" or "just ask the installer to install the HR20 when they arrive". I specifically called twice ahead to have the HR20 installed. All the SF Bay Area installers have right now is the HR21. I now have to pay for local channels plus PBS 9 (and many others) are SD only. 

I called D* this morning to ask for a receiver swap to the HR20. "Nope can't do that." How about getting my money back? "Sorry all sales final". The best I could do was to purchase an HR20 locally and D* would reinburse me $100.

I am totally underwhelmed by this experience. I've been a D* customer for over 10 years. D* has a real PR problem and potential law suits. If I knew all this last week I would certainly be shopping around.

Scott


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Herdfan said:


> You are looking at this as an either/or situation. It is not. I can't imagine D* has lost a single customer because there was an OTA solution in the box.
> 
> Here is a solution: Order a run of HR20's. Keep them separate from HR21's and make them only available as a special order. Sell (lease) them for $399. When and if they run out, order more. D* then has a way of covering its extra costs while providing customers with something they want.


Why isn't it?

As stated multiple times... DirecTV will have an ATSC solution.... What else do you want? Be it a "run" of HR20's and more elaborate ordering process... that makes sure that the customer gets the model they want.... (even if it means they have to wait longer).

Or something else...

They will have some "solution"... but it won't be today, and probably won't be tomorrow...


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Herdfan said:


> You are looking at this as an either/or situation. It is not. I can't imagine D* has lost a single customer because there was an OTA solution in the box..


I think that perhaps we're all assuming it to be an either/or situation simply because the new products that D* has released do not have OTA. We're assuming that to be a trend... they eliminate OTA from the box, thereby reducing the loss they take when they sell/give away a receiver.

That, coupled with the statement from D* (through Tom, which started this particular thread) that "we *will* have a solution". If the solution was to keep manufacturing HR20's and make them available to those who need OTA and make HR21's available to those who do not need OTA, one would expect the statement to be "we *have* a solution"... and, with that model, one would not expect more information to be forthcoming... the discussion would be over and moot.

However, since it appears there is a "solution coming" with more information to be given as it becomes available... It makes it look like an either/or situation, with some sort of add on solution for ATSC, which is likely to cost money to those who want to use it...


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> IMHO... LIN situation is just a joke... and the people in those DMA's should really get on their case... as it is just crazy that they are demanding payment for their signal. (as if I was an affiliate... I would want my signal to get out to as many possible customers as possible..... thus I could charge more to my advertisters as I would have a larger base of users)
> 
> But the LIN aspect is an argument for another day.
> 
> What if those 2,000,000 customers... not one of them use ATSC....
> Then if each tuner costs $20... that is $80,000,000 of cost to DirecTV... for something that is not used...
> 
> The drop of the ATSC and the costs associated, is reducing the LOSS DirecTV takes on each one of the HR series units that go out.


Earl, I understand the motive for cost savings here. The issue is that if D*'s pulled the HR20 from the supply chain, without a replacement, they don't give the consumer any options. Maybe I would be willing to pay extra for ATSC support but right now I can't since D* doesn't have that as an option (if as a new customer I can't find a HR20 on my own).

So now look at it the othe way, those $2,000,000 customers go somewhere else, using $75 as a monthly bill, that's $15,000,000 in monthly revenue that's gone somewhere else or $180,000,000 per year.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gcisko said:


> All really good points from a strictly bussiness making money point of view. My question is who is the one that put OTA in the HR20 in the first place? Look at all the trouble that has caused. If it were never planned or implemented the road would be much easier to travel. Now that you have it enabled, removing is seems like a worse mistake. Surely they must realize this. I hope the person in question got what they deserve (promotion or whatever).


Again... Huh?

This is a business... bottom line... DirecTV is a buisiness... anyone that thinks of it as anything different... is simply fooling themself.

As for the ATSC being there in the first place....
Look when the HR20 was designed... (basicaly a year before it's release), you had ZERO DMA's with SAT based HD-LIL... *ZERO* 
ATSC was the ONLY option for the ENTIRE customer base... and many questions still out there about the available of HD LIL via SAT

So yes... the HR20 was designed with the ATSC in mind.

Fast forward to when the HR21 design was being formulated... you had 70 main DMA's that had HD-LIL's... and they have their SAT plans in full swing, with very solid timelines.... contracts, ect.... (aka... DirecTV has a pretty good handle on what is going to be activated when over the next 6 months with regards to HD-LIL's)

So it is a completely different set of discussions... today, as it was 2 years ago


----------



## leww37334

Another solution is to add a PC to your setup and get an ATSC tuner for the PC. This is not as integrated a solution, but you will no longer be dependent on Directv for OTA. 

If Directv decides to add OTA recording as a service (and charge a monthly fee for OTA delivery, rather than a one time tuner cost fee), then this may actually be more cost effective. 

This will also allow you to ask Directv to drop the charge for your locals from your bill, and just get all local stations OTA over the PC.

I have a PC with a MYHD MDP-130 card input into the TV. Works great, but again, it is not an integrated solution.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> Earl, I understand the motive for cost savings here. The issue is that if D*'s pulled the HR20 from the supply chain, without a replacement, they don't give the consumer any options. Maybe I would be willing to pay extra for ATSC support but right now I can't since D* doesn't have that as an option (if as a new customer I can't find a HR20 on my own).
> 
> So now look at it the othe way, those $2,000,000 customers go somewhere else, using $75 as a monthly bill, that's $15,000,000 in monthly revenue that's gone somewhere else or $180,000,000 per year.


I don't know if the HR20's are all dried up... all I know is that the entire HR20 product lines, have not stopped..

So they are not being "pulled", but some areas... based on install volume...
Were already OUT of their allotment of HR systems... and those were replaced by the very large stock pile of HR21-700's they had sitting in a warehouse waiting for deployment...

So maybe this is a blip in the bigger picture... who linws.

Do you really think OTA/ATSC is that big of a feature that those 2,000,000 customers are going to go else where? I would bet out of those 2,000,000 less then 90% would even know what that means, especialy if they can get their locals via SAT.... and out of that last 10%..... I would bet that vast majority doesn't care.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

leww37334 said:


> Another solution is to add a PC to your setup and get an ATSC tuner for the PC. This is not as integrated a solution, but you will no longer be dependent on Directv for OTA.
> 
> If Directv decides to add OTA recording as a service (and charge a monthly fee for OTA delivery, rather than a one time tuner cost fee), then this may actually be more cost effective.
> 
> This will also allow you to ask Directv to drop the charge for your locals from your bill, and just get all local stations OTA over the PC.
> 
> I have a PC with a MYHD MDP-130 card input into the TV. Works great, but again, it is not an integrated solution.


Or you could get a TiVo-HD or TiVo Series 3, or one of the other ATSC DVRs out there.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Actually they have one today (albeit a bit awkward), just ensure you get an HR20. 

The good news is we have options today. The good news is we'll have options next week. Tomorrow might be a bit awkward, but shouldn't be a huge problem either.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Carl Spock

Earl Bonovich said:


> I guess you are all right... it is a conspiracy to screw the OTA people...


The grassy knoll is made out of RG-6. Too bad Jim Garrison is dead.

As a guy who lives and dies by OTA, I don't get it. When and how is DirecTV keeping me from receiving my local stations? Did they build a copper shield around my house while I was asleep? Or did they remove the ATSC tuner from my Panasonic plasma? Those *******s!

I am grateful I have a current solution to both watch and _record_ OTA broadcasts and it looks like that solution will last for a while. Beyond that, Tom's and Earl's posts let us know DirecTV is aware of the situation and plan to keep _recording_ OTA broadcasts as part of their package. I'd hope they wouldn't charge for that but there is plenty of precident if they do. I'm still pissed off I can't call directory assistance for free anymore, especially from a pay phone.

At least air is still free at gas stations...for now.

EDIT: For Tom - GO PACK GO. At least we won't have any silly baseball to distract us from football tonight. :nono:


----------



## mdernst

RAD said:


> Earl, I understand the motive for cost savings here. The issue is that if D*'s pulled the HR20 from the supply chain, without a replacement, they don't give the consumer any options. Maybe I would be willing to pay extra for ATSC support but right now I can't since D* doesn't have that as an option (if as a new customer I can't find a HR20 on my own).
> 
> So now look at it the othe way, those $2,000,000 customers go somewhere else, using $75 as a monthly bill, that's $15,000,000 in monthly revenue that's gone somewhere else or $180,000,000 per year.


Good point - there's a good chance the ones that would leave due to no OTA would be some of the highest paying customers - the "techies", the "geeks" that want it all. These should be some of DTV's most valued customers.

I'm happy that Tom made a post stating that DTV will have an OTA solution again at some point in the future. I'm sad that DTV has, in the meantime, effectively pulled the plug on OTA - unannounced and almost overnight - in many markets where there are now nothing but HR21s and H21s available.

Mike


----------



## Radio Enginerd

houskamp said:


> Great to hear an "official" anouncement.. Thats all I wanted to hear.. Now we can get back to buisness


I'm in this camp...

I imagine the H21 and HR21 were designed with this solution in mind.


----------



## tonyquan

AllThumbs said:


> HR21 installed on Saturday after repeated comments like "the HR21 is not yet in the field" or "just ask the installer to install the HR20 when they arrive". I specifically called twice ahead to have the HR20 installed. All the SF Bay Area installers have right now is the HR21. I now have to pay for local channels plus PBS 9 (and many others) are SD only.
> 
> I called D* this morning to ask for a receiver swap to the HR20. "Nope can't do that." How about getting my money back? "Sorry all sales final". The best I could do was to purchase an HR20 locally and D* would reinburse me $100.
> 
> I am totally underwhelmed by this experience. I've been a D* customer for over 10 years. D* has a real PR problem and potential law suits. If I knew all this last week I would certainly be shopping around.
> 
> Scott


scott--I'm sorry to hear that, I hit the same thing in the SF Bay Area and posted about it back here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=106644

retention may be able to better. as i mentioned in the thread, retention gave me a year of HD Access credit for my trouble along with refunding the box cost ($99 plus shipping)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ggergm said:


> At least air is still free at gas stations...for now.


Sorry....nothing is "free".

One way or another, you're going to pay for something labeled "free".

It takes you /costs you gas to get to the gas station.

Also, many gas stations now charge for the use of their "air machine".

HD OTA is not produced for free by the stations (lots of $$$ for equipment and some manpower), and so I wouldn't be planning that OTA will be "free" indefinitely for anyone regardless of service used or device used.

The 60's are over...


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't know if the HR20's are all dried up... all I know is that the entire HR20 product lines, have not stopped..
> 
> So they are not being "pulled", but some areas... based on install volume...
> Were already OUT of their allotment of HR systems... and those were replaced by the very large stock pile of HR21-700's they had sitting in a warehouse waiting for deployment...
> 
> So maybe this is a blip in the bigger picture... who linws.
> 
> Do you really think OTA/ATSC is that big of a feature that those 2,000,000 customers are going to go else where? I would bet out of those 2,000,000 less then 90% would even know what that means, especialy if they can get their locals via SAT.... and out of that last 10%..... I would bet that vast majority doesn't care.


That is good news if the HR20's are still being made, since all we have are rumors we have to make up the worst possible outcome. D* just needs to come up with a better method then they have now, if your installer comes out with a HR21 and you need a HR20 to find it yourself.

As for your other question, who knows what the number is.


----------



## Carl Spock

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The 60's are over...


Love costs, too? Damn.

No wonder I'm not getting any.


----------



## lman

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sorry....nothing is "free".
> 
> One way or another, you're going to pay for something labeled "free".
> 
> It takes you /costs you gas to get to the gas station.
> 
> Also, many gas stations now charge for the use of their "air machine".
> 
> HD OTA is not produced for free by the stations (lots of $$$ for equipment and some manpower), and so I wouldn't be planning that OTA will be "free" indefinitely for anyone regardless of service used or device used.
> 
> The 60's are over...


Yes we do pay by suffering through the hundreds of commercials we are exposed to. They are called sponsors.


----------



## lman

Coffey77 said:


> It has been stated that one of the reasons to remove OTA from receivers is cost of them installed. You remove the cost from DIRECTV and leave the option up to the customer.
> DIRECTV could:
> 
> add more programming at no additional cost to the customer
> offer cheaper receiving equipment
> offer more incentives/rebates
> fill in the blank as to the possibilities for having "extra" cash.
> This also can possibly open the market for other companies to develop different and better OTA receiving capabilities - which is cetainly a major complaint of the HR20's receiving capabilities.
> 
> Thank you for the update Tom, always good to hear there is future possibilities.


More likely it would just increase their profits.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> More likely it would just increase their profits.


Yah think? Isn't that the goal of a for-profit company?


----------



## ebr

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yah think? Isn't that the goal of a for-profit company?


Especially one with public shareholders...


----------



## jtn

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yah think? Isn't that the goal of a for-profit company?


Non public companies are not as aggressive, they are inclined to be profitable, but don't have to worry about paying rich shareholders who already have to much money.


----------



## billsharpe

ATARI said:


> The _solution_ is that there will be more locals available via satellite in the months to come.


That's hardly a solution. It's a glimmer of future hope for some people.

Bill


----------



## gcisko

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sorry....nothing is "free".
> 
> One way or another, you're going to pay for something labeled "free".
> 
> It takes you /costs you gas to get to the gas station.
> 
> Also, many gas stations now charge for the use of their "air machine".
> 
> HD OTA is not produced for free by the stations (lots of $$$ for equipment and some manpower), and so I wouldn't be planning that OTA will be "free" indefinitely for anyone regardless of service used or device used.
> 
> The 60's are over...


Everyone (even your monkey) knows that these shows are paid for by the 33% comercials we are exposed to. Yep 20 minutes per hour now. So I am unsure of your point.


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> SARCASIM......
> 
> SARCASIM......
> 
> "WE" as in the folks here at DBSTalk that are in contact with those at DirecTV... I though it was pretty clear what our relationship was like....


Actually it wasn't sarcasm at all. I am sorry you felt it was. I truely do not understand your 5 year comment and surely you must understand mine about we have a solution NOW. Anyway sorry you feel that way.


----------



## jtn

gcisko said:


> Everyone (even your monkey) knows that these shows are paid for by the 33% comercials we are exposed to. Yep 20 minutes per hour now. So I am unsure of your point.


Absolutely correct DirecTV reaps in millions in advertising revenue. DirecTV makes more money than in previous years, they are not in fiscally bad health, far from it. When Malone takes over it will be even better for DirecTV. Since Murdoch is aging and tired, and considers DirecTV "a bird turd."

For profit companies never earn enough despite the fact they earn plenty. The goal of shareholder driven companies is to make more than years past, it's never ending demand that they get more for the shareholders, not for people like you and me the customer.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ebr said:


> Especially one with public shareholders...





gcisko said:


> Actually it wasn't sarcasm at all. I am sorry you felt it was. I truely do not understand your 5 year comment and surely you must understand mine about we have a solution NOW. Anyway sorry you feel that way.


MY COMMENTS (the ones you were referencesing) were SARCASIM.... not yours...

And you are not going to have a solution NOW.... it is going to be a whiles until more details are available... and/or the solution is available.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

ggergm said:


> I'm still pissed off I can't call directory assistance for free anymore, especially from a pay phone.


I'm pissed I can't call the Bay Area time lady anymore. P-O-P-C-O-R-N! 

Times change I guess. I have a bias opinion since only PBS and sub channels are missing from the HD Lil's in my market. I still LOVE and actively use OTA and would be saddened without it.


----------



## gully_foyle

Earl Bonovich said:


> Through all of these discussions........
> 
> Has anyone given a single point of benefit to DirecTV to provide ATSC support? Everything about the ATSC aspect of the boxes... costs DirecTV money. Everyone.
> 
> From physical equipment...
> To software development...
> To support tier...
> To installation tier...
> 
> With DirecTV spending 10's of millions of dollars to get the Locals in HD on the SAT stream.... what is the upside to them also supporting ATSC?
> 
> Not what is the upside to you... to have a single box to cover everything you want... what is the upside to DirecTV doing it?
> 
> A fractional increase of subscribers? Maybe ? What percentage do you think it would be?
> 
> I know a *LOT* of you must have ATSC...
> I know a *LOT* of you think/feel ATSC is better for you...
> I know a *LOT* of you must have the sub-channels...
> 
> But at the end of the day... is there enough of "you" that makes it a winning proposition for DirecTV?
> 
> The money/cost ect... that is spent on ATSC... is significantly higher then any of you have attempted to guess... No one here has "all" pieces to the puzzle.... I do have a few more then most, but even I don't have all the pieces.
> 
> So before people starting making the signs that they are 2nd class citizens.... take a step back... look at the bigger picture... look at all the facts that are known at this time.
> 
> And make your long term decision.
> If that means you are going to need to change carriers... or implement a 2nd box... or turn your anger towards the locals in your area to get off their butts and complete the process with DirecTV to get their signal on the SAT.... or what ever.....
> 
> End of the day:
> For every one person that leaves DirecTV because of the lack of ATSC...
> Another 10 are going to join to get access to all the new HD networks, and their locals via SAT.


You know, this is really ironic. For most of the 90's DirecTV had no locals, except for the DNS. Then they lost a lawsuit to some CBS local station and Congress stepped in and mandated LiL. The decline of DirecTV signal quality can be measured from that day.

DirecTV fought LiL for years. The idea was that you'd get and antenna or basic cable if you wanted local stations. WHich was fine by me, as I had an antenna and plenty of local signal. But people in rural areas wanted D* to provide them with local signal. Eventually D* gave in, and stole bandwidth from nationals to send locals. Ad SD went from uncompressed 640x480 to heavily stepped-on 480x480.

Eventually D* began using spot beams and added many more locals, but never restored the SD national bandwidth. Not to this day.

So I find it ironic that D* is now saying "who needs OTA, we have [some] locals on the satellite." Complete and utter reversal.


----------



## bhelton71

I have to admit I am a little intimidated by the prospect of installing Linux drivers for a USB ATSC tuner - unless it was thru some sort of ui. I know it is different from the old days when you had to re-compile the kernel to get device support, but still not quite plug and pray.

I am amazed no one has mentioned the HD Homerun. Just looking at it seems like it would be ideal - ethernet interface, has dual tuners - so I am guessing 2 HR21s could address it. Of course the price may be a sticking point. And I am not exactly sure how it works so maybe totally inappropriate for this application.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

kcmurphy88 said:


> So I find it ironic that D* is now saying "who needs OTA, we have [some] locals on the satellite." Complete and utter reversal.


Well... not really...

It is all because of that history.... the fact for the last 10 years, they have actively pushed the locals via SAT...

They they are continuing down that aspect... as frankly... that is what the VAST MAJORITY of their customer base wants/expects....

I know it is hard to understand (from both sides).... but ATSC antenna's... the average to even above average customer... do not want them.

There are REASONS why you don't see ATSC antennas in large quantities at BestBuy, Circuit City, Walmart, Target, and even Radio Shack for that matter...

People building all these new homes... CABLE or SAT... ATSC is not even a consideration...

Everyone has "friends" that think the same way they do.... but...

When you drive around in certain areas.... OTA antenna's are EXTREMELY rare to see in new developments over the last 10 years....

And frankly... I bet in the areas that you see the OTA antennas most are not even hooked up to anything (or pointed correctly, or even standing up straight)... as it is easy just to cut the line... rather then climb the roof to shut it down.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bhelton71 said:


> I have to admit I am a little intimidated by the prospect of installing Linux drivers for a USB ATSC tuner - unless it was thru some sort of ui. I know it is different from the old days when you had to re-compile the kernel to get device support, but still not quite plug and pray.
> 
> I am amazed no one has mentioned the HD Homerun. Just looking at it seems like it would be ideal - ethernet interface, has dual tuners - so I am guessing 2 HR21s could address it. Of course the price may be a sticking point. And I am not exactly sure how it works so maybe totally inappropriate for this application.


Well obviously... if that is the route they go... the driver's and support would have to be in the software for the system.... nothing that you would install.

And almost a guarantee that you would have to get the device from DirecTV... as they are not going to even attempt to support more then one device (aka... see all the arguments on why no USB NIC support)

What HD Homerun are you referring to?


----------



## gully_foyle

RAD said:


> Earl, if you lived in an area that didn't have HD LIL service, or was missing one or more of the four major networks, would you want to move to a service that didn't have a DVR that could receive those channels?
> 
> If D* right now had all DMA's up with HD LIL service then OTA support would not be an issue, but they don't and it will be a while before they do. So IMHO right now they are putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage by not make DVR's with ATSC tuners available to people that require them to receive the big four networks.


Not true. I live in LA, and get 5 networks from D*. While they need to add 2 more stations at minimum (PBS & Channel 9), even if D* had every channel with every subchannel SD & HD down to Spanish language shopping channels, I'd still want OTA, and want my DVR able to record them.

Two reasons: 1. DirecTV has a sorry history of over-compression, both with HD and SD. 2. Rain fade.

Now, Earl keeps asking "what use is an HR10-250?" Well, this is one, clearly. Not only can they be had for nearly nothing on ebay, but, unlike an HR20, they can be repaired and disks can be replaced, independently of DirecTV.


----------



## bhelton71

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well obviously... if that is the route they go... the driver's and support would have to be in the software for the system.... nothing that you would install.
> 
> And almost a guarantee that you would have to get the device from DirecTV... as they are not going to even attempt to support more then one device (aka... see all the arguments on why no USB NIC support)
> 
> What HD Homerun are you referring to?


The SiliconDust one - like I said I don't know if it streams or you have to install some sort of control driver - which would probably make it useless in this case.

http://www.9thtee.com/hdhomerun.htm


----------



## Earl Bonovich

kcmurphy88 said:


> Not true. I live in LA, and get 5 networks from D*. While they need to add 2 more stations at minimum (PBS & Channel 9), even if D* had every channel with every subchannel SD & HD down to Spanish language shopping channels, I'd still want OTA, and want my DVR able to record them.
> 
> Two reasons: 1. DirecTV has a sorry history of over-compression, both with HD and SD. 2. Rain fade.
> 
> Now, Earl keeps asking "what use is an HR10-250?" Well, this is one, clearly. Not only can they be had for nearly nothing on ebay, but, unlike an HR20, they can be repaired and disks can be replaced, independently of DirecTV.


How can OTA compensate for "DIGITAL FADE"... my OTA 2-1 is lost the moment I plug my son's computer in (not turned on... but just plugged in).

OTA is not "infailable" in all installations... it can be affected as well.

And RAIN FADE... and I really don't want to get into that too much again... is heavily dependent on your installation on your dish... and as pointed out by a meteorologist here on the board... where you live and the density of the clouds.......

Where do I keep asking anything about the "use" of an HR10-250?
I know exactly what the HR10-250 can be used for.

As for compression... you do realize that the OTA is compressed too? and in some markets, the OTA signal is heavily compressed....


----------



## Coffey77

I think DIRECTV realized that LiL's are VERY important. It's possibly one of the reasons half of their customers have switched from cable or other provider. I know it was one of the factors that held me off for some time.


----------



## gully_foyle

Earl Bonovich said:


> When you drive around in certain areas.... OTA antenna's are EXTREMELY rare to see in new developments over the last 10 years....
> 
> And frankly... I bet in the areas that you see the OTA antennas most are not even hooked up to anything (or pointed correctly, or even standing up straight)... as it is easy just to cut the line... rather then climb the roof to shut it down.


So, what you are arguing then, is that local broadcasting is dead or dying. Except that it is being propped up by D* giving them a new transmitter in the sky.

I don't actually disagree -- I would love to see the day when the local Balkanization of broadcast rights (and DMAs in generally) went the way of the dodo. Oh, you'd still have some local and regional sources -- news and whatnot -- but they don't need to be broadcast as such. But getting rid of blackout rules and local syndication would be excellent.

So, I don't actually disagree. I just wonder how you stop this march of progress from removing those sat dishes, too, once we all have 100Mbit internet, like they do in Japan.

Like I said elsewhere, this is the main reason I'm keeping my HR10. As you point out so well, I cannot expect D* to care what I want, only their bottom line, so I'll have to take action on my own.


----------



## gully_foyle

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where do I keep asking anything about the "use" of an HR10-250?
> I know exactly what the HR10-250 can be used for.
> 
> As for compression... you do realize that the OTA is compressed too? and in some markets, the OTA signal is heavily compressed....


You have in places suggested that people strip their HR10's for parts or dump them on ebay before they become worthless. From the tone of your posts, you seemed to think they were worthless already. Perhaps it was just a bad day or a poor choice of words.

As for compression -- of course I understand that. I understand this stuff better than most. See my post here for example. And note the end of my sig.


----------



## Jaysv

Coffey77 said:


> I think DIRECTV realized that LiL's are VERY important. It's possibly one of the reasons half of their customers have switched from cable or other provider. I know it was one of the factors that held me off for some time.


I agree, the 2 factors in my switch from cable to Directv...LiL for my DMA, and at the time the Directvio was a better Tivo than the standalone I was using.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

kcmurphy88 said:


> So, what you are arguing then, is that local broadcasting is dead or dying. Except that it is being propped up by D* giving them a new transmitter in the sky.
> 
> I don't actually disagree -- I would love to see the day when the local Balkanization of broadcast rights (and DMAs in generally) went the way of the dodo. Oh, you'd still have some local and regional sources -- news and whatnot -- but they don't need to be broadcast as such. But getting rid of blackout rules and local syndication would be excellent.
> 
> So, I don't actually disagree. I just wonder how you stop this march of progress from removing those sat dishes, too, once we all have 100Mbit internet, like they do in Japan.
> 
> Like I said elsewhere, this is the main reason I'm keeping my HR10. As you point out so well, I cannot expect D* to care what I want, only their bottom line, so I'll have to take action on my own.


IMHO... yes... in major DMA's, local "broadcasting" is dying (key word there).
The aspect of going via OVER THE AIR... in the major DMA's is dyring... and will continue to decrease... espeicaly in Feb 2009, as since people are going to have to get a box for each and everyone of their older TV's.... people are going then go to cable or dbs solutions... especially if the costs of the ATSC boxes don't come down in price to sub $25 ranges (IMHO).

If we could get 100MBit lines to the home... then the "transmission" changes again.... and again... and again... as technology changes...

I wish all the organization and companies and politics involved... would allow the technology to go at full tilt, instead of constantly trying to hamper it... with 10+ year rollout plans... x,y,z limitation.

I personally feel the AFFILIATE model of broadcasting has run it's course.... and maybe in my Son's lifetime, we will see that go away....

The #1 reason for the affiliate model, was because of the lack of technology and you needed regional broadcast points... the #2 was the need for local news.

Today's technology... is almost there... 
Once #1 can be completely resolved.... then #2, can adjust to that new resolution.

I find it extremely bothersome, that the primetime local content is duplicated in the SAT datastreams 100+ times (then again 3 hours later).... that is just nuts.

So as I said... hopefully in my lifetime, and certainly my son's... they can get past this arcaic affiliate model... and embrase the technology in a way that at the end of the day... it benefits everyone...


----------



## goober22

Herdfan said:


> Sadly, probably not.
> 
> ATSC was a must in the early days before D* had HD LIL. It probably kept them many higher-end customers that would have bailed for cable and its HD locals.  But now that HD LIL's are available, the need for D* to provide ATSC is less than it was in the early days of HD.
> 
> Question: I think Tom mentioned aomthing about a "license" fee for the ATSC tuner. What is that about?


They DO NOT have HD LIL for everyone. Only a small part of the DMAs are provided. For me, ATSC is a must since I am in the 140s in DMAs.

Now, once my locals are available on D*, then it will no longer be a "must" to have it and I would not mind if they dropped support.

BUT until they have mine (and all other DMAs) up in HD, then they need to provide ATSC support. I had to refuse 2 HR21s for this reason and am having 2 HR20s shipped in their place so I can get my locals.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

kcmurphy88 said:


> You have in places suggested that people strip their HR10's for parts or dump them on ebay before they become worthless. From the tone of your posts, you seemed to think they were worthless already. Perhaps it was just a bad day or a poor choice of words.
> 
> As for compression -- of course I understand that. I understand this stuff better than most. See my post here for example. And note the end of my sig.


Well yes honestly... they are not "worthless"... but they are not worth anywhere near a fraction of what they used to.

And I haven't made that suggestion in a very long time... except for my post, about having to sell my HR10-250 for $50

And the person I sold it to... wasn't able to correct what ever issues it was having... so I did state to him, that the parts of the unit, are probably worth more then the entire unit.


----------



## gully_foyle

SOme folks seem to think that all D* has to do is jam OTA signals into the HR21, perhaps with some frequency change. Won't work. The modulation (RF signal formatting) is not even slightly the same between terrestrial broadcasting and satellite broadcasting. The HR21 cannot make sense of an 8VSB terrestrial signal.

Now, you could demodulate the 8VSB externally and then remodulate to DVB, but that's gotta be expensive and seems likely to have quality issues. The external tuner dongle seems the best idea so far, as it requires only a modest amount of system software. The vendor of the modules will be overjoyed to provide the drivers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

goober22 said:


> They DO NOT have HD LIL for everyone. Only a small part of the DMAs are provided. For me, ATSC is a must since I am in the 140s in DMAs.
> 
> Now, once my locals are available on D*, then it will no longer be a "must" to have it and I would not mind if they dropped support.
> 
> BUT until they have mine (and all other DMAs) up in HD, then they need to provide ATSC support. I had to refuse 2 HR21s for this reason and am having 2 HR20s shipped in their place so I can get my locals.


1/3rd of the DMA's is not a "small part"... it isn't the majority, but it is far from small given that those 1/3 of the DMA's covers more then 70% of the viewing population.

As noted earlier: They don't have SD LIL in all DMA's... and haven't provided an NTSC tuner for them...


----------



## gully_foyle

Coffey77 said:


> I think DIRECTV realized that LiL's are VERY important. It's possibly one of the reasons half of their customers have switched from cable or other provider. I know it was one of the factors that held me off for some time.


Oh, heck, I don't doubt it. Once DirecTV realized it wasn't going to be allowed to provide only regional stations they had to do it.

It's just ironic that not only did the tail start wagging the dog, it now thinks the dog is optional.


----------



## goober22

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Only if they offer them.
> 
> My DMA has no HD locals via Satellite. And there are ALOT at this point that have no HD locals via Satellite.
> 
> For me, the only way to watch network television in HD is via the HR20. I have an older HD set with no ATSC tuner built in. IF my HR20 were to break and they tried to replace with an HR21, I would lose 90% of the HD programming that I watch.
> 
> Hence... OTA is an important feature for me... at least at this point in time.
> 
> As Earl has pointed out, there are many (myself included) who would probably overlook the lack of OTA if D* was offering our HD Locals.... I don't watch the subchannels. Our subchannels don't really have content that interests me. Even PBS... the subchannels here are mainly Spanish programming, which doesn't help me any as even after 4years of High School Spanish and 2 in college, (10+ years ago)... I dont have a firm enough grasp of it to watch TV in Spanish...


I agree with this completely. D8 does not have any of my locals currently and E* only offers them in SD. If everyone had their locals up and running, then I can see it being an option feature, but not right now!


----------



## jwd45244

jtn said:


> Non public companies are not as aggressive, they are inclined to be profitable, but don't have to worry about paying rich shareholders who already have to much money.


Who exactly owns most of the stock in public companies? Not "Rich Shareholders who already have too much money". Far and away it everyday Jane on John Does in the form of things like pension funds, 401(K)s, 403(b)s.

This notion that profit is bad is silly.


----------



## goober22

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1/3rd of the DMA's is not a "small part"... it isn't the majority, but it is far from small given that those 1/3 of the DMA's covers more then 70% of the viewing population.
> 
> As noted earlier: They don't have SD LIL in all DMA's... and haven't provided an NTSC tuner for them...


My guess is that all tvs have NTSC tuners already. Not all HD sets have ATSC tuners however.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Earl Bonovich said:


> When you drive around in certain areas.... OTA antenna's are EXTREMELY rare to see in new developments over the last 10 years....
> 
> And frankly... I bet in the areas that you see the OTA antennas most are not even hooked up to anything (or pointed correctly, or even standing up straight)... as it is easy just to cut the line... rather then climb the roof to shut it down.


Those are true statements, at least in my field of vision. I'm lucky to have the only OTA antenna in walking distance which is still perpendicular to the ground, still has all of its tines, etc. I'm also lucky it works although I don't genuinely understand how (I'm almost 60 miles from the towers and the VHF-only antenna is pointed 90° to the other ones in the neighborhood).

Mostly what I see in the better parts of town are satellite dishes or nothing. In the poorer parts it's usually large mangled pieces of metal hanging at precarious angles that might have been antennas, once.


----------



## leww37334

Given the current postings about "OTA is dead", I do find it interesting that the Government is going to send out millions of dollars of vouchers for boxes that will allow OTA users (who don't exist anymore) to buy OTA ATSC receivers. 

Is the Government that out of touch with reality? Never mind , the answer to that question is obvious.

I really would like to know what percent of Directv subscribers use an OTA antenna. If it is truly as as small as 10% then dropping OTA is a good business decision (if you don't mind ticking off 10% of your customers and a huge PR black eye). Does anyone have a source for a study of OTA usage?


----------



## say-what

Here's the thing I get a kick out of - people are acting like they're entitled to receive HD-OTA via their DirecTV receivers, when in fact, DirecTV is under no obligation to provide that capability. Cable certainly doesn't integrate ATSC tuners into their boxes (dvr's included) so that you can receive and record those stations they don't have a carriage agreement with on cable's equipment. Cable simply tells you to get an antenna and connect it to your TV.

That said, the ability to receive HD-OTA via DirecTV's equipment is a nice option that they've provided in the past and one that I hope they continue to offer in the future.


----------



## abruns

Wasn't it just a year ago that everybody here was waiting for the OTA to be enabled (and some really mad that it was taking longer than they were told) on the HR20 and now all of a sudden those same people say it is not a necessity.


----------



## leww37334

Stuart Sweet said:


> Those are true statements, at least in my field of vision. I'm lucky to have the only OTA antenna in walking distance which is still perpendicular to the ground, still has all of its tines, etc. I'm also lucky it works although I don't genuinely understand how (I'm almost 60 miles from the towers and the VHF-only antenna is pointed 90° to the other ones in the neighborhood).
> 
> Mostly what I see in the better parts of town are satellite dishes or nothing. In the poorer parts it's usually large mangled pieces of metal hanging at precarious angles that might have been antennas, once.


One issue about outside antennas is it does not answer the question of how many people are now using indoor antennas or attic antennas. The new indoor antennas are so much better that you can now get good reception 30 miles away (in some cases) with an indoor.

I still would like to see a real study on ota usage. surely Congress did that before they charged into this set top box giveaway....or maybe not.


----------



## PennHORN

I am sorry this entire sorry episode pisses me off and frankly I am disappointed in Earl's comments.

The HR-20 has ATSC integration. I just got an antenna installed and I love it. It works great. With no warning, D* tries to foist the ATSC-less HR-21s on people. Mind you, everything we heard from the insiders previous to this was that the HR-21 was just giving D* more options and that there were no plans on D*'s part to do away with OTA integration.

Well, it sure seems from Earl's tone that this is not true and that an elegant integration found in the HR-20 is going away and MIGHT be replaced FIVE YEARS down the road. Does this make any sense at all. Let's get rid of an all inclusive HD-DVR for one that screws those without HD-LiL while saying they are working on a situation and will have one maybe in 5 years when you have the damn HR-20 doing what we want it to do.

They better still make HR-20s or they will be rightly for sued for pulling a bait and switch. There is no way that I will stand for an HR-21 being sent as a replacement if one of my HR-20s craps out. Every D* sub should be enraged about this.

D* is great at making people tilt at windmills and expecting to wait. They made longtime subs wait forever for new HD channels, SWM, etc.


----------



## leww37334

I found a 2005 answer to the OTA percentage: 19 percent

http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/128778/house_looks_at_ways_to_speed_digital_tv/index.html

Unfortunately given the way technology changes that number could be down a lot from 2005. I will keep looking.


----------



## OldRick

Seems like the most consumer-friendly way to deal with this would be for DTV to offer a model with no OTA, and a second model with OTA function for an additional $25 - roughly the manufacturing cost of including the tuners.


----------



## OldRick

BTW, those "worthless" HR10's are still going strong at $100 to $200 on Ebay...


----------



## bhelton71

say-what said:


> Here's the thing I get a kick out of - people are acting like they're entitled to receive HD-OTA via their DirecTV receivers, when in fact, DirecTV is under no obligation to provide that capability. Cable certainly doesn't integrate ATSC tuners into their boxes (dvr's included) so that you can receive and record those stations they don't have a carriage agreement with on cable's equipment. Cable simply tells you to get an antenna and connect it to your TV.
> 
> That said, the ability to receive HD-OTA via DirecTV's equipment is a nice option that they've provided in the past and one that I hope they continue to offer in the future.


I have a perfectly good atsc tuner in my PC - so if/when the whole media share for video is enabled - that is a workable solution to me. I am in one of the afore-mentioned LIN areas so until analog shutoff, so I am sure we will not get CBS digital off of satellite until then (if even then). And yes - my wife loves the CSI's, Criminal Minds and of course there are football games so it is kind of a big deal. I can do without the subchannels - they are handy once or twice a year for weather, and our local CBS affliate has multicasted basketball tournaments in the past.

What I really, really want is fewer boxes in the living room. I don't care how the content is delivered so much - but really just want a central interface and I think the HR2x boxes have the beginnings of the much ballyhooed digital convergence we have been promised for so long - not by Directv so much, but by the CE and software companies in general. So for me - OTA-IP (making up my own acronyms now) via HR2x.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OldRick said:


> BTW, those "worthless" HR10's are still going strong at $60 to $200 on Ebay...


If I bought something for $999 and sold it for $60, I would categorize losing 94% of its worth as equivalent to worthless.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

PennHORN said:


> I am sorry this entire sorry episode pisses me off and frankly I am disappointed in Earl's comments.
> 
> The HR-20 has ATSC integration. I just got an antenna installed and I love it. It works great. With no warning, D* tries to foist the ATSC-less HR-21s on people. Mind you, everything we heard from the insiders previous to this was that the HR-21 was just giving D* more options and that there were no plans on D*'s part to do away with OTA integration.
> 
> Well, it sure seems from Earl's tone that this is not true and that an elegant integration found in the HR-20 is going away and MIGHT be replaced FIVE YEARS down the road. Does this make any sense at all. Let's get rid of an all inclusive HD-DVR for one that screws those without HD-LiL while saying they are working on a situation and will have one maybe in 5 years when you have the damn HR-20 doing what we want it to do.
> 
> They better still make HR-20s or they will be rightly for sued for pulling a bait and switch. There is no way that I will stand for an HR-21 being sent as a replacement if one of my HR-20s craps out. Every D* sub should be enraged about this.
> 
> D* is great at making people tilt at windmills and expecting to wait. They made longtime subs wait forever for new HD channels, SWM, etc.


For the umpteenth time.... the 5 YEAR STATEMENT WAS *SARCASIM*.. sorry that went wait over the head for some of you...

As for a bait and switch lawsuit comment.... I love it... just love it... not even 2 weeks after the HR21-700 is release... people are already calling their lawyers...

Longtime subs... wait for HD... umm... do you think the SAT's just build them self, and you can jump in your chevy to drop them off at their orbital slots?

Or SWM... i bet you 99.9% of DirecTV's subscribe base has ZERO clue what SWM is.

Big Bad DirecTV is out to screw you all....... (and if anyone was curious... yes... that is SARCASIM as well)


----------



## bobnielsen

I think both LiL and OTA are important (and use both). Many (most) OTA digital stations have poorer coverage than do their analog counterparts (lower antennas and/or lower power transmitters). This will improve after 2/2009 in most cases). There are also the considerations of distance and obstructions (mountains, trees, buildings) which prevent many people from receiving their locals OTA (I cannot receive a couple which are ~10 miles away, even with a 4-bay array on my roof). Additionally some DMAs stretch out over very large areas. When the D10 and D11 spotbeams are active, there will be much better LiL coverage than now.


----------



## houskamp

bhelton71 said:


> What I really, really want is fewer boxes in the living room. I don't care how the content is delivered so much - but really just want a central interface and I think the HR2x boxes have the beginnings of the much ballyhooed digital convergence we have been promised for so long - not by Directv so much, but by the CE and software companies in general. So for me - OTA-IP (making up my own acronyms now) via HR2x.


+1 here.. Thats one of the reasons I like the mediashare stuff too.. put away my 200 disk cd changer too... man that thing was huge...


----------



## Doug Brott

kcmurphy88 said:


> Oh, heck, I don't doubt it. Once DirecTV realized it wasn't going to be allowed to provide only regional stations they had to do it.
> 
> It's just ironic that not only did the tail start wagging the dog, it now thinks the dog is optional.


:lol: that's funny .. I actually don't think that it's that bad, folks still like other things than LiL and the networks :lol: But the conversations over the last couple of weeks certainly does make it seem that way, doesn't it.


----------



## ebr

PennHORN said:


> I am sorry this entire sorry episode pisses me off and frankly I am disappointed in Earl's comments.
> 
> The HR-20 has ATSC integration. I just got an antenna installed and I love it. It works great. With no warning, D* tries to foist the ATSC-less HR-21s on people. Mind you, everything we heard from the insiders previous to this was that the HR-21 was just giving D* more options and that there were no plans on D*'s part to do away with OTA integration.
> 
> Well, it sure seems from Earl's tone that this is not true and that an elegant integration found in the HR-20 is going away and MIGHT be replaced FIVE YEARS down the road. Does this make any sense at all. Let's get rid of an all inclusive HD-DVR for one that screws those without HD-LiL while saying they are working on a situation and will have one maybe in 5 years when you have the damn HR-20 doing what we want it to do.
> 
> They better still make HR-20s or they will be rightly for sued for pulling a bait and switch. There is no way that I will stand for an HR-21 being sent as a replacement if one of my HR-20s craps out. Every D* sub should be enraged about this.
> 
> D* is great at making people tilt at windmills and expecting to wait. They made longtime subs wait forever for new HD channels, SWM, etc.


Why do people feel D* is somehow _obligated_ to provide them with OTA reception and recording capability? They did in the past because they needed it to be competitive. Now, in a lot of cases, and in the coming months/years in most all cases, that won't be the case at all. So why should they continue to spend money on it? What they are doing makes perfect sense to me as both a consumer and an investor (I don't own DTV, however). And, by the way, this thread was intended to tell all of you who do value OTA that you _won't_ be left out in the cold. Based on the responses and activities - if I were D* I might want to now... (that's a joke, guys).

And, if you really believe D* is actively out to screw you, then you should get another service. In fact, if you can find a better offering, you should do it anyway. I sure know my cable company is not a better offering. Hasn't been for 10 years and doesn't appear it will be for the next 10.

In the end, as a consumer, you pick the service that gives you the best value. If that isn't everything you ever wanted plus a cherry on top, well, that's too bad but why in the heck would you think you have some _right_ to that - such that you should sue someone for not giving you what you think are entitled to?

[step off soapbox and apply flamesuit]


----------



## Doug Brott

abruns said:


> Wasn't it just a year ago that everybody here was waiting for the OTA to be enabled (and some really mad that it was taking longer than they were told) on the HR20 and now all of a sudden those same people say it is not a necessity.


Are you sure it's the same people? There have been a huge number of additions over the past year to DBSTalk.com, more than 30,000 I think.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

:backtotop


----------



## houskamp

Doug Brott said:


> Are you sure it's the same people? There have been a huge number of additions over the past year to DBSTalk.com, more than 30,000 I think.


I'm one that was waiting for it :grin:


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> And you are not going to have a solution NOW.... it is going to be a whiles until more details are available... and/or the solution is available.


OH I thought we were talking about OTA. I already have that as a working solution. What were you referring to?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gcisko said:


> OH I thought we were talking about OTA. I already have that as a working solution. What were you referring to?


Forget it...
Simply... forget it...

..........

I am referring to the topic of this thread.... 
That there will be an ATSC solution for those that are worried about it....


----------



## gcisko

Earl Bonovich said:


> For the umpteenth time.... the 5 YEAR STATEMENT WAS *SARCASIM*.. sorry that went wait over the head for some of you...
> 
> As for a bait and switch lawsuit comment.... I love it... just love it... not even 2 weeks after the HR21-700 is release... people are already calling their lawyers...


I guess some are a little upset that it came out essentially unannounced and - oh by the way; no OTA. That is how I saw it happen.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Longtime subs... wait for HD... umm... do you think the SAT's just build them self, and you can jump in your chevy to drop them off at their orbital slots?
> 
> Or SWM... i bet you 99.9% of DirecTV's subscribe base has ZERO clue what SWM is.
> 
> Big Bad DirecTV is out to screw you all....... (and if anyone was curious... yes... that is SARCASIM as well)


OK hey send that stuff to Jay Leno or something :lol:

This is a serious topic for some, and they may not appreciate sarcasm (especially from a super moderator) for the moment. Sorry but I thought you were serious. And I am as sarcastic as they come. Just ask Doug :lol:


----------



## gully_foyle

leww37334 said:


> Given the current postings about "OTA is dead", I do find it interesting that the Government is going to send out millions of dollars of vouchers for boxes that will allow OTA users (who don't exist anymore) to buy OTA ATSC receivers.
> 
> Is the Government that out of touch with reality? Never mind , the answer to that question is obvious.
> 
> I really would like to know what percent of Directv subscribers use an OTA antenna. If it is truly as as small as 10% then dropping OTA is a good business decision (if you don't mind ticking off 10% of your customers and a huge PR black eye). Does anyone have a source for a study of OTA usage?


The fact that government is subsidizing the survival of broadcast TV, not only with these boxes but with laws that make cable and satellite carry each and every local broadcast signal, should be an indication that broadcast is trailing edge. Just because government is offering life support does not mean the patient is doing better.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...
> I am referring to the topic of this thread....
> That there will be an ATSC solution for those that are worried about it....


That is the problem with quotes.  My bad. 

In reality there is a solution today. You can even buy a brand new HR20-100B! (The rarest of OTA solutions.)  (On ebay, buy it now, not worth it to me.) 

One can find HR20s (the silver) at many online retailers: amazon, bestbuy, sadoun, solidsignal and others. You can find even more retailers via froogle.com.

The people I talk to at DIRECTV, every single one, are focused on customer solutions for you and me. When they tell me "We will have a solution", I'm good. I know they will have a solution to my real problems.

Now I didn't ask if that meant the HR21s will be a part of that solution. My bad part II. I kinda think it might be, but for anyone needing OTA today go with several HR20s. (Ask my wife, when we go shopping, I don't tend to buy just one of anything.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gcisko said:


> I guess some are a little upset that it came out essentially unannounced and - oh by the way; no OTA. That is how I saw it happen.
> 
> OK hey send that stuff to Jay Leno or something :lol:
> 
> This is a serious topic for some, and they may not appreciate sarcasm (especially from a super moderator) for the moment. Sorry but I thought you were serious. And I am as sarcastic as they come. Just ask Doug :lol:


Okay...

No more sarcasim:

1) DirecTV has told us there will be an ATSC solution at sometime
2) We don't know any more then that.
3) HR21 and H21 don't have ATSC

Those are the only known facts.

So... no more sarcasim... Until we have any more information to share.
Thread closed.

Don't like it: PM my forum boss... Chris Blount.

This is no longer a discussion.. .but a rant fest.


----------



## Doug Brott

gcisko said:


> This is a serious topic for some, and they may not appreciate sarcasm (especially from a super moderator) for the moment. Sorry but I thought you were serious. And I am as sarcastic as they come. Just ask Doug :lol:


huh?







..

Actually, I got the sarcasm from Earl right away. It was the 5-year comment that gave it away :lol: I'm positive that none of us has the 5-year DIRECTV plan at our finger tips :grin:

Heck, we may have a 18-LNB Satellite dish up by then


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Thread Re-Opened.

However... until something changes from the facts that I listed above.
You will not see any additional comments from me..

Don't PM me...
Don't Email me...
Don't IM me...


----------



## Herdfan

gcisko said:


> I guess some are a little upset that it came out essentially unannounced and - oh by the way; no OTA. That is how I saw it happen.


I don't think its the receiver in itself that have people upset. It is the fact that there were mistakes made on the part of either D* or installers and people who requested HR20's, and possibly told they would get 21's, were brought 21's.

Now people are having thoughts that if their 20 fails, what will D* send them and couple this with not being able to walk into a big box and buy one off the shelf, people are somewhat nervous that something they depend on to enjoy TV will be taken from them.

Also, it would be fair to say that some of D*'s proposed hardware solutions never see the light of day - HMC for example.


----------



## Splendor

It sounds like some people are confusing "We Will Have a Solution" with "We Have a Solution".


----------



## gcisko

Splendor said:


> It sounds like some people are confusing "We Will Have a Solution" with "We Have a Solution".


Well I totally totally apologize for getting Earl so upset. But I really do not understand that point. The HR20 is here and now doing it's thing with OTA. We are told not to worry it will still be there. Then we hear we "will" have a solution. And I am not joking around trying to mince words and be a wise-acher. I do not understand.

To quote a friend of mine... "huh?"

And all these people getting HR21's instead of HR20's. Totally understandable if there is a momentary gap in production of HR20's. I think any reasonable person can understand that.


----------



## hasan

Folks, the discussion in *this thread* about whether D* should or shouldn't, whether consumers do or don't, or other pro/con arguments about what receiver has or doesn't, will or won't have OTA is *off topic* As long as there is at least one that either has it internally or will accept an affordable add-on, can we PLEASE stop this incessant, "I want it, I gotta have it" vs. "You don't need it, you already have it all". (in this thread)

The OP tried to prevent this from becoming the focal point for all the rancor, and rather focus on "solutions". If you want to continue the other debates, please start your own thread. This thread is degenerating into nothing more than a rehash of all the others, when it was supposed to be "new ground".

This thread was started with the provisio that D* "will provide a solution", yet to be detailed at this time. To quote the starting post:

"So let us steer the conversation to what and when that solution might be."

How about we do just that and drop this never-ending discussion of the fundamental issues of OTA and D*, and move on to "what and when the solution" might be for the D* customer.

No one is more pro-OTA than I am, but this thread is NOT THE PLACE to carry on the pro/anti D* OTA debate. This is about HOW and WHEN to implement it for the D* customer.

Could we please get back to that and stop the petulant exchanges (in this thread)?

So...anti-OTA posters: shut up. (Leno) 
Pro OTA posters: shut up. (ibid)

Those who want to discuss the whats and whens of the OTA solution, please contribute, and if no one wants to then please kill this thread, as it is misleading and nauseatingly redundant.


----------



## Doug Brott

gcisko said:


> To quote a friend of mine... "huh?".












I'm slow sometimes .. I remember what you're talking about now


----------



## chris0

Does this thread remind anyone else of Ellen Degeneres's overblown reaction to that little puppy? I mean, threatening to sue D* over this? C'mon, really? Let's keep some perspective, people.


----------



## rirwin1983

gregftlaud said:


> How about ....when people call in for an install or a receiver replacement the csr and/or dtv protection plan dept asks the customer if they need a receiver with OTA capablities and then send out the appropriate receiver. Doesnt seem to hard!


thats because they have no idea what we the installers have in our warehouse. the workorder only says ird-hd/dvr combo when we see it and just today did we get in the hr21 and i installed one for the first time.


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## mhayes70

Wow, you people that want to sue for every little thing like OTA. Give me a fricking break!!! Get a life!! If you want a HD DVR with OTA and you can't get it from Directv then my gosh go to Best Buy, Circuit City, Ebay, ect... There are a ton of them out there to buy. The HR20 and H20 has a OTA tuner and the HR21 and H21 do not. GET OVER IT!! Don't all new HD tv's come with OTA tuner built into them? Isn't it just a press of a button or two to get to that from your sat receiver? 

As has been stated there is a solution to this coming. Just wait and be patient and stop the stupid comments that I and everyone should sue. That is NOT the answer!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

To date, DIRECTV hasn't had to worry too much about particular models for receivers beyond 4 types: SD, SD DVR, HD, and HD-DVR. Seems like if they just add two groups they are there: OTA HD and OTA DVR (they wouldn't use those names, of course.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sirshagg

rirwin1983 said:


> thats because they have no idea what we the installers have in our warehouse. the workorder only says ird-hd/dvr combo when we see it and just today did we get in the hr21 and i installed one for the first time.


But who sends you these work orders which don't clearly identify the equipmnet that you are supposed to install. The 20/21 units are very similiar but have a key difference. D* should specify which one is to be delivered and not leave it to chance.


----------



## Tom Robertson

mhayes70 said:


> Wow, you people that want to sue for every little thing like OTA. Give me a fricking break!!! Get a life!! If you want a HD DVR with OTA and you can't get it from Directv then my gosh go to Best Buy, Circuit City, Ebay, ect... There are a ton of them out there to buy. The HR20 and H20 has a OTA tuner and the HR21 and H21 do not. GET OVER IT!! Don't all new HD tv's come with OTA tuner built into them? Isn't it just a press of a button or two to get to that from your sat receiver?
> 
> As has been stated there is a solution to this coming. Just wait and be patient and stop the stupid comments that I and everyone should sue. That is NOT the answer!!


While suing is not the answer, neither is belittling people's needs and desires. I completely agree that people should be able to get OTA if possible and I think it makes very good business sense for DIRECTV to have solutoin yet at the same time finding solutions to saving their costs.

To the many people who understood what I meant to accomplish with this thread, thank you very much!

To the many people who need OTA (or just want strongly, to me that is the same thing) I hope DIRECTVs solutions will work for you at the right time and everytime.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Tom Robertson said:


> To date, DIRECTV hasn't had to worry too much about particular models for receivers beyond 4 types: SD, SD DVR, HD, and HD-DVR. Seems like if they just add two groups they are there: OTA HD and OTA DVR (they wouldn't use those names, of course.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The question I would have with that scenario is this: I've read here that the chipset on the HR21 is slightly different (improved?) than the HR20. Is there something in that change, however slight, that would cause DirecTV to want to use only the HR21 and use an add on OTA solution?

In other words, to us it seems that supplying HR20 and HR21 as OTA and non-OTA would be the "ideal" solution, as it already exists and there's no change needed.

Is there something more to it that would cause DirecTV to lean towards discontinuing the HR20 and distributing only the HR21 with the add on OTA? Thus leaving only the 4 "categories" of receiver to deal with?

I could envision the single HD-DVR being easier to maintain inventory on for the different dealers/distributors. You either have the HD-DVR or you don't, no need to keep inventory seperate and track whether you have the OTA enabled version or not...


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## mhayes70

Tom Robertson said:


> While suing is not the answer, neither is belittling people's needs and desires. I completely agree that people should be able to get OTA if possible and I think it makes very good business sense for DIRECTV to have solutoin yet at the same time finding solutions to saving their costs.
> 
> To the many people who understood what I meant to accomplish with this thread, thank you very much!
> 
> To the many people who need OTA (or just want strongly, to me that is the same thing) I hope DIRECTVs solutions will work for you at the right time and everytime.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Sorry. But, I was not intending to belittle anybody's needs. I was just stating that everyone that is complaining about this they can still very easily get OTA/HR20. I just don't think that threatning a law suit is not the answer and should not even be considered. There are work arounds and a solution is coming sometime soon. Sorry that I came off sounding that way.


----------



## Herdfan

hasan said:


> "So let us steer the conversation to what and when that solution might be."


OK, here is one from left field:

When Liberty/Malone take over D*, he buys TiVo and provides every D* HD customer who wants one an dual tuner TiVo HD (cheap one not the Series 3) and includes the guide data as part of the D* subscription.

OTA issue solved. :lol:

Back to reality:

There was talk a while back of a computer based IRD. Why could such a product not include OTA? There will be a limited market for this just as there will be for OTA, so why not combine them. Add in MRV and everyone has an OTA solution.


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## Doug Brott

Tom thanks again for starting this thread, BTW. You have provided information that was sorely missing in the last couple of weeks.


----------



## Herdfan

Tom Robertson said:


> I think it makes very good business sense for DIRECTV to have solutoin yet at the same time finding solutions to saving their costs.


I have to wonder when the business model changed. My first HD receiver cost $500 and my first HR10 was $1K. We happily paid it. There were no retention credits, but it was the cost of entry. If we operated under the same basic model, the HD DVR would cost $499 and saving $20 per unit would be much less of an issue.

So another possible solution that I proposed before but it seemed to get lost in the din is to INCREASE the price of the 20 as opposed to those who want the price of the 21 lowered. Those who want it, can open their wallets and pay for it.


----------



## gimp

mhayes70 said:


> Wow, you people that want to sue for every little thing like OTA. Give me a fricking break!!! Get a life!! If you want a HD DVR with OTA and you can't get it from Directv then my gosh go to Best Buy, Circuit City, Ebay, ect... There are a ton of them out there to buy. The HR20 and H20 has a OTA tuner and the HR21 and H21 do not. GET OVER IT!! Don't all new HD tv's come with OTA tuner built into them? Isn't it just a press of a button or two to get to that from your sat receiver?
> 
> As has been stated there is a solution to this coming. Just wait and be patient and stop the stupid comments that I and everyone should sue. That is NOT the answer!!


Patient? Do you mean patient like the time I spent studing "Ordering Tips" to extract the best deal out of D*? Or did you mean patient like the hour I spent on hold and then negotiating for a 5LNB & HR10-250 upgrade to a HR20 specifically. Maybe you meant patient like when the installer called to announce he was on the way and said yes, he had an HR20 and slimline dish just like I requested. Or maybe you meant patient when the installer arrived with an HR21 in hand? Then again, maybe you meant patient while we waited for the supervisor to call back when he installed the 5LNB. Quite possibly you meant patient when the installer tried to trick me into "temporarily" installating/activating an HR21 while I tried to get D* to give me what I wanted? Patience certainly was required when the installer realized I really was refusing the HR21 and threaten to remove the 5LNB he just installed. Ah, patience.


----------



## gimp

mhayes70 said:


> Sorry. But, I was not intending to belittle anybody's needs. I was just stating that everyone that is complaining about this they can still very easily get OTA/HR20. I just don't think that threatning a law suit is not the answer and should not even be considered. There are work arounds and a solution is coming sometime soon. Sorry that I came off sounding that way.


Easy? D* promised me a completely free upgrade with slimline and HR20. Because they broke their promise, I had to go out and buy an HR20 retail, which ended up costing me a net $42.26 after credit, which they refuse to compensate. Any by the way, I got one of the last two HR20s at Costco, which were next to giant stack of HR21s.


----------



## bhelton71

Doug Brott said:


> huh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ..
> 
> Actually, I got the sarcasm from Earl right away. It was the 5-year comment that gave it away :lol: I'm positive that none of us has the 5-year DIRECTV plan at our finger tips :grin:
> 
> Heck, we may have a 18-LNB Satellite dish up by then


Ok - I apologize - this way off topic -

I just saw that image in the middle of the discussion:

How is that even possible - do they not use multiswitches in Europe ? it would have to be like the Eniac occupying a room


----------



## gcisko

hasan said:


> This thread was started with the provisio that D* "will provide a solution", yet to be detailed at this time.


And IMHO this is quite simply the issue. If they had said "will continue to provide a solution", then cool. But that is not what was said was it? Or did I misread it?


----------



## KCCardsfan

mhayes70 said:


> Wow, you people that want to sue for every little thing like OTA. Give me a fricking break!!! Get a life!! If you want a HD DVR with OTA and you can't get it from Directv then my gosh go to Best Buy, Circuit City, Ebay, ect... There are a ton of them out there to buy. The HR20 and H20 has a OTA tuner and the HR21 and H21 do not. GET OVER IT!! Don't all new HD tv's come with OTA tuner built into them? Isn't it just a press of a button or two to get to that from your sat receiver?
> 
> As has been stated there is a solution to this coming. Just wait and be patient and stop the stupid comments that I and everyone should sue. That is NOT the answer!!


Yes my TV has OTA inputs, but I also _record_ OTA because of the PQ, so it's not as simple as pressing a button. Does your TV record Digital OTA?

Different people have different ways of using D*, if my HR20 goes south & D* tells me my replacement will be an HR21 do you think I will be happy? 
You say to go retail, why pay $299 when it's under a lease (with protection plan)?

What about my family members in cities that D* doesn't have local HD's? The markets they are in are so small D* may never carry HD locals, shouldn't they be able to have OTA tuners?

Is this something to sue over? Of course not, but not all customers have the same needs/wants or setup as you, if OTA isn't an issue with you then read another thread.

To some of us OTA is an important topic, I like others are concerned about how this will play out.

Thanks to Tom, Earl & Doug for the information.


----------



## mhayes70

gimp said:


> Easy? D* promised me a completely free upgrade with slimline and HR20. Because they broke their promise, I had to go out and buy an HR20 retail, which ended up costing me a net $42.26 after credit, which they refuse to compensate. Any by the way, I got one of the last two HR20s at Costco, which were next to giant stack of HR21s.


Why yes.  You were able to get an HR20 correct? But, not the easiest way by getting it from Directv. I feel if that if they promised you an free HR20 and were not able to deliver what they promised and you had to go out and buy one. Then they should credit you for the full amount.


----------



## Groundhog45

Thanks *Tom* for starting this thread and trying to provide some preliminary information to offset the concerns that the "21" series of receivers generated. Here's what I think I understand from all of this:

* DirecTV will continue to have a solution for people who want OTA, possibly even if they have a "21" model

* The solution may be a UBS or SWM/multiswitch solution that will route the signal to the receivers

* D* had built up a surplus of HR21s while the early units were in field testing and now it appears that a large proportion of the units being sent to distributors are HR21s but that is a temporary situation

* D* has not discontinues manufacturing the HR20 and has not said they will. We all know that no model lasts for more than a few years and eventually they will be discontinued

* Several people have reported in other threads their experiences with looking for specific units in the local retailers and finding only HR20s, HR21s or some of both. Last week my local Best Buy had four of each. Availability of both models is there and seems to fluctuate at times.

I will say that I like and use OTA since Lin owns a station in our market. The HR21 I have is connected to a TV that also has a HR20 and a media center PC giving me four sat and three ATSC tuners. Other folks probably do not have/want that much stuff on one TV. I would like to put the HR21 in the bedroom since the black would blend in better and the box seems to operate quieter but will not until the promised solution will allow me to get the few channels I want OTA in HD. I'm satisfied with what I have and will evaluate future changes when they get here.


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## mhayes70

KCCardsfan said:


> Yes my TV has OTA inputs, but I also _record_ OTA because of the PQ, so it's not as simple as pressing a button. Does your TV record Digital OTA? *No. But, I could use my DVR Burner to record.*
> 
> Different people have different ways of using D*, if my HR20 goes south & D* tells me my replacement will be an HR21 do you think I will be happy? *No. But as stated there is a solution coming.*
> You say to go retail, why pay $299 when it's under a lease (with protection plan)? *Why not? I did for 2 of them. Every Directv receiver is under lease. If you have an HR20 it is under lease and you don't own it.*
> 
> What about my family members in cities that D* doesn't have local HD's? The markets they are in are so small D* may never carry HD locals, shouldn't they be able to have OTA tuners? *Yes they should. I never said that there shouldn't be any OTA tuners ont he HD DVR.*
> 
> Is this something to sue over? Of course not, but not all customers have the same needs/wants or setup as you, if OTA isn't an issue with you then read another thread. *I do and it just burns me that people want to sue for the littlest thing. Am I not titled to my opion as is everyone here. *
> 
> To some of us OTA is an important topic, I like others are concerned about how this will play out.
> 
> Thanks to Tom, Earl & Doug for the information.


Also, it is important to me and I use it. As, I have stated in another thread and I know that you may have not seen it, as it is impossible to read everyone of them. I think they should keep making the HR20 for those markets that don't have HD locals yet and yes there are alot of them that still don't have HD locals via Directv yet.

I hope I have answered your questions. I see your point and everyone else.
Have a good day!


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## jwd45244

Please make sure the passion people feel on this topic is not taken out on each other. Be frustrated with the situation but be respectful of each other.


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## Jaysv

jwd45244 said:


> Please make sure the passion people feel on this topic is not taken out on each other. Be frustrated with the situation but be respectful of each other.


I understand the passion of those who are concerned about how the potential loss of OTA support could impact their television viewing experience.


----------



## jtn

If DirecTV does abandon OTA features in production of future IRD/STB DVR's and offers an external alternative for those who cannot get locals via satellite, that should be okay, but I don't think the customer should be charged extra to get it. They already have the least expensive OTA feature available now in current IRD/STB's, and to end it for external devices that will cost more is not savvy in my opinion. Customers will insist on getting the alternative at no cost since prior customers who obtained IRD/STB equipment equipped with built in OTA didn't have to pay extra for it.


----------



## parkerdt

I just went part way through the screens at D*s website, and I can upgrade an H20 to an HR2* for $99 with self-install. Will i get an HR-20 or 21, do you think?
If an HR20, do you think I could get a second black one? 

In all seriousness, I'd upgrade if I knew it was going to be an HR20. While I'd love a second black one, I'm not holding my breath for that!

Dave


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

parkerdt said:


> I just went part way through the screens at D*s website, and I can upgrade an H20 to an HR2* for $99 with self-install. Will i get an HR-20 or 21, do you think?
> If an HR20, do you think I could get a second black one?
> 
> In all seriousness, I'd upgrade if I knew it was going to be an HR20. While I'd love a second black one, I'm not holding my breath for that!
> 
> Dave


You will not be able to pick and you could get either one.

If you do get an HR20 it will not be black. There was very few ever made and your only chance of getting one is eBay and I don't even think they are on there any more.

If you get an HR21 it will be black.


----------



## vikingguy

say-what said:


> Here's the thing I get a kick out of - people are acting like they're entitled to receive HD-OTA via their DirecTV receivers, when in fact, DirecTV is under no obligation to provide that capability. Cable certainly doesn't integrate ATSC tuners into their boxes (dvr's included) so that you can receive and record those stations they don't have a carriage agreement with on cable's equipment. Cable simply tells you to get an antenna and connect it to your TV.
> 
> That said, the ability to receive HD-OTA via DirecTV's equipment is a nice option that they've provided in the past and one that I hope they continue to offer in the future.


I signed a 2 year contract under assumption that OTA would be supported. I would not of signed a 2 year contract if I knew OTA support might go away. It is dirty pool in the worst way bait and switch. If I have to pay extra for the few dollars OTA costs direct tv I fully expect Sat LiL users to pay 3-10x more in fees since it cost a hell of a lot more to launch a sat than it is to include a cheap tuner.


----------



## Doug Brott

jtn said:


> If DirecTV does abandon OTA features in production of future IRD/STB DVR's and offers an external alternative for those who cannot get locals via satellite, that should be okay, but I don't think the customer should be charged extra to get it.


Odds are if it were free, everyone would ask for one, or two or twenty of these "solutions." I doubt that would do very much to solve DIRECTV's problem of spending too much on each box. I'd say that there will almost certainly be a charge for it.


----------



## Doug Brott

vikingguy said:


> I signed a 2 year contract under assumption that OTA would be supported. I would not of signed a 2 year contract if I knew OTA support might go away. It is dirty pool in the worst way bait and switch. If I have to pay extra for the few dollars OTA costs direct tv I fully expect Sat LiL users to pay 3-10x more in fees since it cost a hell of a lot more to launch a sat than it is to include a cheap tuner.


Is this a new install or do you already have an HR20? If you have an HR20, do you expect those tuners to magically stop working?


----------



## say-what

vikingguy said:


> I signed a 2 year contract under assumption that OTA would be supported. I would not of signed a 2 year contract if I knew OTA support might go away. It is dirty pool in the worst way bait and switch. If I have to pay extra for the few dollars OTA costs direct tv I fully expect Sat LiL users to pay 3-10x more in fees since it cost a hell of a lot more to launch a sat than it is to include a cheap tuner.


OTA support is not going anywhere anytime soon. There are too many OTA enabled receivers in the market to pull the plug and as the 1st post in this thread states, there will continue to be an OTA option.


----------



## jtn

Doug Brott said:


> Odds are if it were free, everyone would ask for one, or two or twenty of these "solutions." I doubt that would do very much to solve DIRECTV's problem of spending too much on each box. I'd say that there will almost certainly be a charge for it.


Doug it already is free with HR units for OTA, so why eliminate that to make it cost customers and increase their bills and risk churn? Even with the new satellites and most markets being able to get locals via satellite, there will be some markets left behind that need it. Why change less expensive technology, to make it costlier?


----------



## vikingguy

Doug Brott said:


> Is this a new install or do you already have an HR20? If you have an HR20, do you expect those tuners to magically stop working?


I doubt it I have seen stranger things happen but I also know those HR20s will not last for ever and will need to be replaced. It could be in a week or 2 years but the HR20s will die. If I did not have a contract with direct it would be different because I could call dish the second I lost OTA. Now if direct wants to drop OTA and let anyone out of the contract who needs OTA then that would be fair to both sides.


----------



## Ken S

This may be the reason for DirecTV wanting to limit the production of any unit with OTA tuners. Knocking off $10 a unit plus the cost of the hardware is a significant savings.

----------------

MPEG LA Issues ATSC Patent Portfolio License

Dated September 21, 2007

Below is a brief summary of the licensing terms for informational purposes only. The ATSC Patent Portfolio License, providing the only definitive statement of licensing terms on which users may rely, may be obtained from MPEG LA.

* Royalty of $5.00 per unit for an ATSC Receiver Product capable of demodulating and decoding an over-the-air, RF terrestrial broadcast signal in compliance with the ATSC Standard
* Includes right to make, have made, sell, offer for sale, import, and for an end user to use ATSC Receiver Products
* Coverage from December 24, 1996
* Royalties payable on products from January 1, 1998
* Initial license term to December 31, 2016 with right of renewal

Information regarding a license to patents that are essential to the MPEG-2 Video and Systems standard used in ATSC products may be obtained from MPEG LA at

Link to the whole article at Design & Reuse


----------



## Doug Brott

vikingguy said:


> I doubt it I have seen stranger things happen but I also know those HR20s will not last for ever and will need to be replaced. It could be in a week or 2 years but the HR20s will die. If I did not have a contract with direct it would be different because I could call dish the second I lost OTA. Now if direct wants to drop OTA and let anyone out of the contract who needs OTA then that would be fair to both sides.


I think you missed the whole point of this thread .. there WILL be a solution for OTA. We just don't know what that is. And BTW, I'm just as in the dark as you as to what that solution is going to be.


----------



## mhayes70

Ken S:

Good information. Thanks for posting!


----------



## Doug Brott

Ken S said:


> This may be the reason for DirecTV wanting to limit the production of any unit with OTA tuners. Knocking off $10 a unit plus the cost of the hardware is a significant savings.


That explains where some of the cost is and that doesn't even include the material and assembly charges.


----------



## Racer88

Is it anywhere within the realm of possibility that the future OTA solution could be a self contained module, not entirely unlike a SWM or other multiswitch, whose output could be transposed onto the normal data stream of the coax running to the sat port(s) and properly interpreted and displayed by the IRD for what it is?

Possibly using the flex port technology?

Talk of migrating users from 72.5.....

Hmmmm?

EDITED: I'll save a link to this post to refer back to when the solution is revealed to see how close I was since obviously this post will be lost in all the pointless arguing about what it costs to build a DVR......sigh


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Enough with the cost estimates...

They are all speculations.... so unless you can pull up an order form, and prove any of the components costs....

None of us have the exact figures and estimates for each and every component.... 

:backtotop


----------



## Tom Robertson

We've split the cost estimates into its own thread. If you wish to participate, please review the first post and the ground rules. OT Posts have been and will be deleted. 

The thread is here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=107188

And as Earl said, let us keep this thread back on topic of what an OTA solution will look like. Thanks!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## flipptyfloppity

I hope this doesn't qualify as a rant.

I just say OTA matters to me and some others. I think D* would do well to keep these people as customers because they represent revenue, and they are some of the most rabid customers who represent some of the most revenue per-subscriber.

I think trying to over-monetize these people is bad too. Obviously D* has to figure out how to recoup their extra costs to service these customers, but they shouldn't overdo it.

D* has to balance all this, to get costs down so they can give away more free PVR receivers (esp. with E* putting the heat on, now cable and E* PVRs are free), but also to not drive these customers away.

I figure they're smart enough to do it, I just hope they're not dumb enough to think they don't need to bother.

This is not an unheard of situation, I question D*'s market research. Did they really ask the right questions. It isn't a question of how many people use OTA (a figure you can get easily by programming your boxes to send the info over the phone to you), but more how many people subscribed citing OTA as an issue.

Ask any company that tried to make a PC with few or no slots. Yes, no one ever uses them. But yet many people will not buy a PC without them. They think they need them, and since the point is to sell as many units as possible, you have to pay attention to what the customer uses as a buying criterion, even if it diverges from what they actually need.

I'm saddened that the situation (with D* and on this board) has become as it has. I like my service, but I have difficulty recommending it to others, since I don't know what service D* will really offer to my friends if they try to sign up.

As someone else said, we're back to the Turkish Bazaar again. When I upgraded to MPEG4, I tried to figure out what the service packages were and how much it would cost me per month. It took effort to find all the fees (HD access, PVR fee, leasing, etc.) and come up with a figure, and I was still wrong.

D* should have am more menu-like pricing scheme. You can see what you can get and how much it would cost. If I can option and price a car on the web, there's no reason I can't click a few boxes and figure out what service will cost me per month. They could even calculate up front fees and taxes if they wish to do so (I doubt they do, they'd rather hide them, as their competitors do also).

Okay, end story. I don't want to start another battle, I just want D* to know (if they read this) that I want OTA, I don't want to pay per month for it (that's kind of the point), but I'll pay up front a bit more to get a receiver that can do it. And please, for your own good, figure out your pricing and make a web page that can explain it properly.


----------



## Tom Robertson

flippityfloppity, well said. Does not qualify as rant. (bonus score!) 

Menu pricing for OTA features would not be a bad thing, especially if they can do it by reducing the price of the HR21 rather than increasing the price of the HR20.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## dbmaven

I would think that a 'modular' solution would make sense.

Build the 'next generation' HD-DVR with a slot in the back that you could slide in an OTA tuner card.

Here are the benefits I see:
1 - a common platform, OS and application software. Reduction in manufacturing costs from standardization.
2 - No "stranded customers". If you know, or find out, that you need OTA capability, call up D* and they'll ship you the add-on card for a minimal fee - (D* cost + $5.00 + S&H). Slide it in, connect your OTA cable, and you're in business. Nothing too complex - if you can put a DVD or CD in a player, or a VHS tape in a deck, you can plug in the card. *Poof* instant OTA.
3 - Inventory flexibility. No decisions on how to carry enough HR20s vs. HR21. One box reduces inventory carrying costs at all levels - Distribution Centers, Installation company warehouses, and the installer's vehicles. 
4 - Installers deal with one box. OTA not included. If you need OTA, call D* and get the card.

While the initial cost might be a bit higher to allow for this "plug-n-play" OTA card, it solves many problems (real or perceived).


----------



## hasan

dbmaven said:


> I would think that a 'modular' solution would make sense.
> 
> Build the 'next generation' HD-DVR with a slot in the back that you could slide in an OTA tuner card.
> 
> Here are the benefits I see:
> 1 - a common platform, OS and application software. Reduction in manufacturing costs from standardization.
> 2 - No "stranded customers". If you know, or find out, that you need OTA capability, call up D* and they'll ship you the add-on card for a minimal fee - (D* cost + $5.00 + S&H). Slide it in, connect your OTA cable, and you're in business. Nothing too complex - if you can put a DVD or CD in a player, or a VHS tape in a deck, you can plug in the card. *Poof* instant OTA.
> 3 - Inventory flexibility. No decisions on how to carry enough HR20s vs. HR21. One box reduces inventory carrying costs at all levels - Distribution Centers, Installation company warehouses, and the installer's vehicles.
> 4 - Installers deal with one box. OTA not included. If you need OTA, call D* and get the card.
> 
> While the initial cost might be a bit higher to allow for this "plug-n-play" OTA card, it solves many problems (real or perceived).


The slot is already there...it's called a USB port. It could be a pretty simple add-on dongle with some internal code in the HR series to make use of it. This solution has all the advantages you list and none of the drawbacks. No need to completely reinvent the wheel. (and units that will do the job already exist and should be able to be back-fitted.)

....and I don't think it should be free, by any stretch. There could be circumstances where it might be provided as compensation for delivery of the wrong receiver, but I'm not going to open that can of worms now.

It's really simple: at order time, you are asked, "Do you want/need OTA. If so, the add-on module for the HR?? is $xx" If you want it, you pay for it. If you don't, you don't. I don't feel D* "owes" us free hardware that only some people want. I want it. I'll pay for it. (and I'm being serious, I do want it). Now...it musn't be absurdly priced, but that's fodder for another thread.


----------



## gcisko

jwd45244 said:


> Please make sure the passion people feel on this topic is not taken out on each other. Be frustrated with the situation but be respectful of each other.


Want to give this another go? It does not make sense. Sorry.


----------



## gcisko

Doug Brott said:


> I think you missed the whole point of this thread .. there WILL be a solution for OTA. We just don't know what that is. And BTW, I'm just as in the dark as you as to what that solution is going to be.


For the gazzilionth time will someone please explain this? I have OTA now via the HR20. Rumor is that the HR20 will still live on. So what exactly do you mean that "there WILL be a solution for OTA. We just don't know what that is"?


----------



## gully_foyle

I really value my OTA. I've had OTA + D* for over a decade and I don't want to change that. BUT....

*I agree with Earl* (and others) that very few of us actually care about OTA once there is adequate coverage of HD LiL. Since the D10 spots didn't pan out as expected, I imagine that D*'s timing on the HR21 is a bit off. But they'll get there, and most everyone who wants HD LiL will have them. And they'll get D*'s attention because they ARE the majority.

For freaks like me, who still want OTA fed into my DVR (without having to pay TiVo $20/month) even though we have every last shopping channel via HD LiL, I have several options.

1) HR10-250. What with InstantCake and all, I can keep that playing for years.
2) HR20-700. Hopefully it won't die anytime soon, and once I can get a 2TB disk for $100, I'll be set there, too.
3) In time, a USB dongle or something similar will come along and I can buy one for $50 or $100 if I need it that badly. Hopefully there won't be a monthly OTA access charge....

But Earl is right: why SHOULD D* tack $20 cost to each and every unit if a year from now only 2% of us will be using it. If it was 20%, I'd have a different answer, but I kinda doubt that. I know when I had cable I didn't have OTA as well....

I do think that D* could have done this better, like waiting to have significant HD LiL before canning the HR20, but not every plan works out.

I think I'm done with this subject.


----------



## gully_foyle

gcisko said:


> For the gazzilionth time will someone please explain this? I have OTA now via the HR20. Rumor is that the HR20 will still live on. So what exactly do you mean that "there WILL be a solution for OTA. We just don't know what that is"?


It means that D* is going to drop default support for OTA, but allow it as an add-on option. Benefits are reduced cost per standard box. Downside is increased cost for those that demand it. In theory, once HD LiL is widespread, the demand should be minimal.

This all blew up because the HR21 drops that support, and the D10 sat didn't add a lot of HD LiL. Add to that reports that HR20's are hard to come by and it's rant time. I did my share, too. This thread is about how to provide OTA as an add-on, and what might be acceptable.


----------



## Fire407

When I first heard that the HR21 did not have OTA capabilities I immediately thought that DirecTV was trying to keep us from comparing the OTA MPEG 2 to the the MPEG 4 picture quality. While MPEG 4 looks OK now, it still doesn't quite match the quality of the OTA stations, at least here in LA. Having OTA available for comparison might help insure that DirecTV won't gradually dial down the quality of the MPEG 4 signal. 
After reading through this thread I am pretty much satisfied that the motives for DirecTV are more economic and not because they want to keep us in the dark. I like having OTA on the HR20. I think a lot of people would like to have it as an option if they were educated about over the air HDTV. Most of the people I talk to don't even know that you can get HDTV with an antenna.


----------



## gio12

I had a feelign this was coming. IMO it started when users recived a HR10 or Hr20 and did not wnat locals from D* anymore and gettign them via OTA. I am almost did this myself at the time, but I left the package alone.

Think about it, why would D* pay for you to get TV from another source?

BUT, I also think the elimination of OTA should be gradual and a date given to all D* consumers. I have it, wnat it and need it. But in reality, how many of D* base needs them?

Funny when I tell people I get OTA HD stuff with an antenna they laugh? "You still have that thing on top of your house?" Well mine is in the attic. See MOST people have not a clue that HD can and is FREE OTA. We have been so use to cable and SAT over the yeras providing locals to most people most don't care or KNOW about OTA.

I did not know until I bought my HR10 from a HT junkie friend.

Now I live in a amjor market so I get locals via SAT and a TON via OTA. I only watch 1 sub-channels; Weather Plus. BUT I watch ALL my locals via OTA. Why RAIN FADE Baby!!

I have missed way too many plays and big moments during Fottball and other sporting events with SAT. So I wnat need OTA with DVR functions.
Now if D* completey pulls OTA I will be PISSED but won't leave as Comcrap in not an option. BUT I would be willing to pay a samll on time harware fee for a box.

Say the NON-OTA box is $199. I would willing to pay another $100 or less for an INTERGRATED SAT box with OTA. Unless it's a small USB device I don't want it. I don't wnat a large external solution. No fees either.

Look in the big picture with D* they can pull OTA, keep MOST the customers and gain more with adding everyone locals and sub-chan. That'
s smart business INO IF they make a lot more money.

But bascially pulling it without lettign anyone know sucks! I guess I beter get my second HR20 while I can now!


----------



## gio12

Oh, I also think that OTA customers should be granfathered in. But D* needs to collect that info now. I sgned my contract knowing OTA was availabe. But then again it should be around by next year I am sure!


----------



## gio12

Earl Bonovich said:


> And RAIN FADE... and I really don't want to get into that too much again... is heavily dependent on your installation on your dish... and as pointed out by a meteorologist here on the board... where you live and the density of the clouds.......
> /quote]Sorry earl. Rain Fade here in SFLA can be VERY bad at times. I have out with the new slimline for upt o 5 minutes. YES my dish is aligned perfectly. #1 and bascially the ONLY reason I want OTA. Sure I can hit a switch o the remote and watch it through my TV, but I lose DVR functions and what if I am not home?
> 
> Sorry, but RF IS an issues for some of us. And don't tell me what's 2-3 mintues during a big game!


----------



## gcisko

kcmurphy88 said:


> It means that D* is going to drop default support for OTA, but allow it as an add-on option. Benefits are reduced cost per standard box. Downside is increased cost for those that demand it. In theory, once HD LiL is widespread, the demand should be minimal.
> 
> This all blew up because the HR21 drops that support, and the D10 sat didn't add a lot of HD LiL. Add to that reports that HR20's are hard to come by and it's rant time. I did my share, too. This thread is about how to provide OTA as an add-on, and what might be acceptable.


Well this is not what they have been saying. And I guess this is why I am on their case, cause I believe what you write here. On one hand everything is cool, on the other your above scenerio. So I see people trying to talk out of both sides of their mouth and that tends to attract my attention 

Just tell me what is really happening without all the smoke and mirrors and you will be much better off. Beat around the bush and we are gonna have a "go" 

Cheers :grin: :nono: :eek2: :lol:     :hurah:


----------



## mhayes70

dbmaven said:


> I would think that a 'modular' solution would make sense.
> 
> Build the 'next generation' HD-DVR with a slot in the back that you could slide in an OTA tuner card.
> 
> Here are the benefits I see:
> 1 - a common platform, OS and application software. Reduction in manufacturing costs from standardization.
> 2 - No "stranded customers". If you know, or find out, that you need OTA capability, call up D* and they'll ship you the add-on card for a minimal fee - (D* cost + $5.00 + S&H). Slide it in, connect your OTA cable, and you're in business. Nothing too complex - if you can put a DVD or CD in a player, or a VHS tape in a deck, you can plug in the card. *Poof* instant OTA.
> 3 - Inventory flexibility. No decisions on how to carry enough HR20s vs. HR21. One box reduces inventory carrying costs at all levels - Distribution Centers, Installation company warehouses, and the installer's vehicles.
> 4 - Installers deal with one box. OTA not included. If you need OTA, call D* and get the card.
> 
> While the initial cost might be a bit higher to allow for this "plug-n-play" OTA card, it solves many problems (real or perceived).


That makes perfect sense to me. I would be willing to pay a minimal fee for an OTA tuner to put on my receiver.


----------



## Ken S

gcisko said:


> Well this is not what they have been saying. And I guess this is why I am on their case, cause I believe what you write here. On one hand everything is cool, on the other your above scenerio. So I see people trying to talk out of both sides of their mouth and that tends to attract my attention
> 
> Just tell me what is really happening without all the smoke and mirrors and you will be much better off. Beat around the bush and we are gonna have a "go"
> 
> Cheers :grin: :nono: :eek2: :lol:     :hurah:


gcisko -

Here's my guess at what's happening. DirecTV has known for a while that they would have to pay licensing fees on the ATSC tuners. They also know that a small percentage of their overall user base uses those tuners.

In addition they are under pressure to reduce the overall cost of their receivers and DVRs. DirecTV's cost of subscriber acquisition is going up mostly driven by the increased cost of advanced equipment (HD). While the payoff in the longterm is better with HD customers (Higher average monthly fees) that doesn't always make the current quarters numbers good enough. As anyone who has been in a public company knows...the pressure to hit quarterly numbers isn't much fun.

So, here they are staring at the 20 series saying how can we make this box for less money. Someone says...let's drop the ATSC tuners we can remove hardware and not have to pay a licensing fee. We'll have just about the whole country covered when D10 is in orbit...few will care. By droing the ATSC tuners they're probably knocking around $20 or so off the cost of the box (We now know licensing fees are $5 per tuner).

The 21 series is launched and on September 21 the MPEG LA announces the license fees (these are also for boxes already in existence). Someone at DirecTV gets out a calculator and isn't happy (Although I'm sure someone in finance was (hopefully) acruing cost for the coming fees.). They halt production of the 20 series knowing there are still a fair number in the channel (distributors, stores, installers and of course the refurbs).

Now...here's the question...was someone there also cognizant of the people that need/want OTA and began working on a solution back when the 21s were initially designed? Keeping stock and production of both series is a pretty expensive way to solve that issue.

How will they solve the issue?

I'm guess some sort of branded add-on device. I can't say if it's a USB device or some kind of separate box that feeds into the existing satellite lines. I'm also going to guess that they're going to charge an upfront fee of somewhere between $30 and $80 for the device and OTA subscribers will pay some sort of ongoing EPG fee ($2 - $5/month). How far along is this device? That's hard to say...but if they just started thinking about this issue it could be at least six months before it's available. I'm sure they're hoping they have enough 20s available to meet demand.

This is all just conjecture and might prove totally wrong. It's worth exactly what you paid for it. 

One hint into their thinking might involve the SWM. I don't have one so I don't know if it supports diplexing of OTA signal or not. If it does or doesn't it wouldn't be conclusive but certainly something to add to the "to be considered" pile.


----------



## GP245

Concerning if the SWMs supports diplexing, the answer is yes.

In fact, the SWM 8 has an O-T-A input built into it. 

For the SWM 5, you have to diplex externally with a separate diplex unit.


----------



## hasan

Ken S said:


> gcisko -
> 
> Here's my guess at what's happening. DirecTV has known for a while that they would have to pay licensing fees on the ATSC tuners. They also know that a small percentage of their overall user base uses those tuners.
> 
> In addition they are under pressure to reduce the overall cost of their receivers and DVRs. DirecTV's cost of subscriber acquisition is going up mostly driven by the increased cost of advanced equipment (HD). While the payoff in the longterm is better with HD customers (Higher average monthly fees) that doesn't always make the current quarters numbers good enough. As anyone who has been in a public company knows...the pressure to hit quarterly numbers isn't much fun.
> 
> So, here they are staring at the 20 series saying how can we make this box for less money. Someone says...let's drop the ATSC tuners we can remove hardware and not have to pay a licensing fee. We'll have just about the whole country covered when D10 is in orbit...few will care. By droing the ATSC tuners they're probably knocking around $20 or so off the cost of the box (We now know licensing fees are $5 per tuner).
> 
> The 21 series is launched and on September 21 the MPEG LA announces the license fees (these are also for boxes already in existence). Someone at DirecTV gets out a calculator and isn't happy (Although I'm sure someone in finance was (hopefully) acruing cost for the coming fees.). They halt production of the 20 series knowing there are still a fair number in the channel (distributors, stores, installers and of course the refurbs).
> 
> Now...here's the question...was someone there also cognizant of the people that need/want OTA and began working on a solution back when the 21s were initially designed? Keeping stock and production of both series is a pretty expensive way to solve that issue.
> 
> How will they solve the issue?
> 
> I'm guess some sort of branded add-on device. I can't say if it's a USB device or some kind of separate box that feeds into the existing satellite lines. I'm also going to guess that they're going to charge an upfront fee of somewhere between $30 and $80 for the device and OTA subscribers will pay some sort of ongoing EPG fee ($2 - $5/month). How far along is this device? That's hard to say...but if they just started thinking about this issue it could be at least six months before it's available. I'm sure they're hoping they have enough 20s available to meet demand.
> 
> This is all just conjecture and might prove totally wrong. It's worth exactly what you paid for it.
> 
> One hint into their thinking might involve the SWM. I don't have one so I don't know if it supports diplexing of OTA signal or not. If it does or doesn't it wouldn't be conclusive but certainly something to add to the "to be considered" pile.


If D* tries to charge me for free OTA signals, they will not only lose me as a potential buyer of the device, they will lose me as a customer completely. A one time fee for the device, fine, perfectly justified. Turning OTA free tv into ANY kind of pay tv is the stupidest idea I think I've ever heard. (not your mentioning it, them even considering it) They would be better of just saying, we're not doing OTA any longer.

If you thought the natives got "restless" over the HR21 not having OTA, and the rumor that they weren't going to support it at all, you haven't seen anything yet.

If nothing else, it's a provocative idea, and we wouldn't want the OTA thread to die from lack of discussion.


----------



## Ken S

hasan said:


> If D* tries to charge me for free OTA signals, they will not only lose me as a potential buyer of the device, they will lose me as a customer completely. A one time fee for the device, fine, perfectly justified. Turning OTA free tv into ANY kind of pay tv is the stupidest idea I think I've ever heard. (not your mentioning it, them even considering it) They would be better of just saying, we're not doing OTA any longer.
> 
> If you thought the natives got "restless" over the HR21 not having OTA, and the rumor that they weren't going to support it at all, you haven't seen anything yet.
> 
> If nothing else, it's a provocative idea, and we wouldn't want the OTA thread to die from lack of discussion.


Trust me, Hasan, I'm not advocating new charges...but DirecTV likes monthly recurring revenue streams (don't we all). I'd also guess that they would do some sort of grandfather deal...or maybe only charge where they don't/can't supply the OTA and DNS signals. I dunno...my crystal ball is tired...need to find some more eye of newt and ant antenna to charge it back up.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

hasan said:


> If D* tries to charge me for free OTA signals, they will not only lose me as a potential buyer of the device, they will lose me as a customer completely. A one time fee for the device, fine, perfectly justified. Turning OTA free tv into ANY kind of pay tv is the stupidest idea I think I've ever heard. (not your mentioning it, them even considering it) They would be better of just saying, we're not doing OTA any longer.
> 
> If you thought the natives got "restless" over the HR21 not having OTA, and the rumor that they weren't going to support it at all, you haven't seen anything yet.
> 
> If nothing else, it's a provocative idea, and we wouldn't want the OTA thread to die from lack of discussion.


If DirecTV charged for OTA on a monthly basis, I would certainly begin to explore my other options as well... though around here, options aren't aplenty if I want to get HD programming!

I agree with you that an upfront cost for the equipment would be perfectly justified, and I would be right at the head of the line to buy whatever that equipment was if my HR20 were to stop working for some reason - or if my next DVR ended up being an HR21...


----------



## hasan

Ken S said:


> Trust me, Hasan, I'm not advocating new charges...but DirecTV likes monthly recurring revenue streams (don't we all). I'd also guess that they would do some sort of grandfather deal...or maybe only charge where they don't/can't supply the OTA and DNS signals. I dunno...my crystal ball is tired...need to find some more eye of newt and ant antenna to charge it back up.


Be sure, I wasn't dumping on you....they gotta have a better recurring revenue stream than this one...it is relatively small (as some argue) in number and it would really irritate the ones exposed to it.

You can't take something that is free to everyone else, and start charging a vocal minority and not expect the worst possible response. I swear, if they tried this, I'd take a collection amongst all the pro OTA people and take out and ad in the NY Times excoriating D* for wanton greed. (pay for ongoing OTA reception) Charging for an add-on, one time, and reasonably is perfectly acceptable to me.

Again, I'm just reacting to the concept. I find it perhaps the most offensive idea I've heard w/r to D* since starting with them in 1994.

...and because it is pure speculation, I'm not going to post one more thing about it, as this kind of stuff takes on its own life, becomes conspiratorial fodder, and in the end D* takes a "guilt by association" hit, for no justifiable reason.

I just couldn't stop myself from reacting (and badly) to the idea.


----------



## gcisko

Ken S said:


> Here's my guess at what's happening. DirecTV has known for a while that they would have to pay licensing fees on the ATSC tuners. They also know that a small percentage of their overall user base uses those tuners.
> 
> In addition they are under pressure to reduce the overall cost of their receivers and DVRs. DirecTV's cost of subscriber acquisition is going up mostly driven by the increased cost of advanced equipment (HD). While the payoff in the longterm is better with HD customers (Higher average monthly fees) that doesn't always make the current quarters numbers good enough. As anyone who has been in a public company knows...the pressure to hit quarterly numbers isn't much fun.
> 
> So, here they are staring at the 20 series saying how can we make this box for less money. Someone says...let's drop the ATSC tuners we can remove hardware and not have to pay a licensing fee. We'll have just about the whole country covered when D10 is in orbit...few will care. By droing the ATSC tuners they're probably knocking around $20 or so off the cost of the box (We now know licensing fees are $5 per tuner).
> 
> The 21 series is launched and on September 21 the MPEG LA announces the license fees (these are also for boxes already in existence). Someone at DirecTV gets out a calculator and isn't happy (Although I'm sure someone in finance was (hopefully) acruing cost for the coming fees.). They halt production of the 20 series knowing there are still a fair number in the channel (distributors, stores, installers and of course the refurbs).
> 
> Now...here's the question...was someone there also cognizant of the people that need/want OTA and began working on a solution back when the 21s were initially designed? Keeping stock and production of both series is a pretty expensive way to solve that issue.
> 
> How will they solve the issue?


Well OK If someone semi official would explain it this way it makes sense. But still on one hand we are told everything is cool and we are like chicken little saying the sky is falling. Then... We go from that to USB OTA addons as a future solution.

_I Never heard about the OTA licensing thing. It seems like everyone wants a $. Sheesh_.


----------



## Carl Spock

hasan said:


> If D* tries to charge me for free OTA signals, they will not only lose me as a potential buyer of the device, they will lose me as a customer completely.


hasan, two things:

1) DirecTV can _never_ charge you for receiving OTA signals. I assume any hi-def television you buy will have a ATSC tuner. If not, those boxes are available. You can _always_ receive OTA signals for free to watch on your television.

What they can charge you for is _recording_ them. They're supplying the box. They're supplying the guide. They can charge you for both, be it one time or monthly. Actually, that should read one time _and_ monthly. You, as a free man, can choose not to pay for for it, as you have stated. Such are business transactions.

Please just get your facts straight.

2) I can't speak of your experience but see if any of this rings true to you. Here are things I never used to pay for that I pay for now:

a) Bottled water
b) Telephone directory assistance
c) Library access
d) Radio (XM, specifically)
e) Toll roads instead of freeways in California

At least I haven't seen a pay toilet for years. 

Those are just ones I've thought of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more.

Things change, hasan. One of those might be your subscription to DirecTV. That's the way it goes.

I just wish there wasn't such drama about it.

I swear, I'm half of the mood to start a poll. Who feels more entitled, welfare mothers or DirecTV subscribers?


----------



## ebr

hasan said:


> If D* tries to charge me for free OTA signals, they will not only lose me as a potential buyer of the device, they will lose me as a customer completely. A one time fee for the device, fine, perfectly justified. Turning OTA free tv into ANY kind of pay tv is the stupidest idea I think I've ever heard. (not your mentioning it, them even considering it) They would be better of just saying, we're not doing OTA any longer.
> 
> If you thought the natives got "restless" over the HR21 not having OTA, and the rumor that they weren't going to support it at all, you haven't seen anything yet.
> 
> If nothing else, it's a provocative idea, and we wouldn't want the OTA thread to die from lack of discussion.


I too, think charging a recurring fee would probably be a bad idea. But mostly because of perception. Of course, they wouldn't be charging you the fee for the actual OTA feed - they don't control that. What the fee would be is for the ability to use their (satellite) box to record that feed. That is actually a very reasonable thing for them to do if they wish (Tivo does). Except for the fact that very few will discern this distinction. Instead, they will react the way you did - that they are charging you for something that is free. That would not be the case, but it wouldn't matter.

[edit] Amen, ggergm - it appears we were posting simultaneously...


----------



## Ken S

gcisko said:


> Well OK If someone semi official would explain it this way it makes sense. But still on one hand we are told everything is cool and we are like chicken little saying the sky is falling. Then... We go from that to USB OTA addons as a future solution.
> 
> _I Never heard about the OTA licensing thing. It seems like everyone wants a $. Sheesh_.


I'm fully unofficial!

The licensing thing isn't new. People/Companies invented the means for receiving the ATSC signals and patented them. All of the people with applicable patents got together and created a set license fee. A good move on their part as it makes it easier for manufacturers to give them money and costs a whole lot less than having to individually negotiate each deal.


----------



## Carl Spock

ebr, great minds think alike. :righton:


----------



## hasan

ggergm said:


> < much snipped>
> 
> Those are just ones I've thought of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more.
> 
> Things change, hasan. One of those might be your subscription to DirecTV. That's the way it goes.
> 
> I just wish there wasn't such drama about it.
> 
> I swear, I'm half of the mood to start a poll. Who feels more entitled, welfare mothers or DirecTV subscribers?


I don't dispute they would make the case that I am paying to record them (of course, DVD Recorders don't, VCR's don't, CD recorders don't) ...there is plenty of precedent for NOT charging a premium...in fact, try to make your cavalier (get used to change) argument in the 'normal' world and you'll be derided out of town.

Perception is reality in consumer electronics..."that's the way it goes" is the way of the Dodo and a sure way to run a company out of business. Any CEO who approaches their customers with "that's the way it goes", will soon find him/herself gone.

The very idea of charging an on-going premium for recording OTA is nothing more than wanton greed, and a PR nightmare.


----------



## Jaysv

hasan said:


> I don't dispute they would make the case that I am paying to record them (of course, DVD Recorders don't, VCR's don't, CD recorders don't) ...there is plenty of precedent for NOT charging a premium...in fact, try to make your cavalier (get used to change) argument in the 'normal' world and you'll be derided out of town.
> 
> Perception is reality in consumer electronics..."that's the way it goes" is the way of the Dodo and a sure way to run a company out of business. Any CEO who approaches their customers with "that's the way it goes", will soon find him/herself gone.
> 
> The very idea of charging an on-going premium for recording OTA is nothing more than wanton greed, and a PR nightmare.


Interesting...Tivo's whole business model is built on charging you for recording the signal you get for free or that you pay someone else to receive.

Ok maybe not their whole business model now that they are supplying software to Comcast.


----------



## ebr

So you're contention is that the guide data and software have no cost to the provider (your examples have no real time capabilities)?



hasan said:


> ...
> The very idea of charging an on-going premium for recording OTA is nothing more than wanton greed, and a PR nightmare.


Unfortunately, the average consumer's view is that any attempt by a company to make a profit (or recover a loss) is nothing more than wanton greed. Until, of course, they look at their 401k performance. Then they scream "why the HECK didn't you make more??!??" With all due respect to GG - "Greed is good" - to a point. 

Ironically, I agree with you - kinda. Because I agree that the average sub will see this the same way you do.


----------



## dbmaven

hasan said:


> The slot is already there...it's called a USB port. It could be a pretty simple add-on dongle with some internal code in the HR series to make use of it. This solution has all the advantages you list and none of the drawbacks. No need to completely reinvent the wheel. (and units that will do the job already exist and should be able to be back-fitted.)


If there is a USB device that is capable of performing the function, I have no problem with that. I tend to shy away from USB as a viable contender for video streams - because of the inherent bandwidth issues and the fact that even if it is using the PCI bus, it's a software based protocol handling the data packets. Real world transfer rates tend to be no more than about 320Mbps - which is why most video transfer devices prefer FireWire over USB - and none of the devices we're talking about have FireWire ports. Could they be added - sure. But that doesn't completely solve the packet transfer issues - just adds some headroom.

I guess it depends on whether you're looking at this long-term or short-term. To provide a cheap/fast solution on the existing receivers, then using the existing USB is probably the only viable solution. Problem is, these devices capable of handling HD aren't exactly in the 'cheap' range....
http://computers.pricegrabber.com/v...rd=atsc+usb+tv+tuner/rd=1/mode=g_us_b_s/skd=1


----------



## hasan

...and I agree with you, as well.  

I'm done participating in this orgy of speculation...none of this matters to me until we see the "solution" that has been mentioned and how it is implemented. 

In the long run, it really is only TV. I sometimes forget that and begin to suffer tunnel vision as I work to help develop the receivers.


----------



## bhelton71

Let me break out my pocket knife at this gunfight:

Just curious - is everyone agreeing that a USB tuner would be a 'most likely' solution? Also I think there are 2 assumptions -

assumption #1) the USB ports are 2.0 in these boxes - otherwise I think all bets are off on data rates
and 
assumption #2) the off-air solution interfaces to the sat box and can be recorded. I say that because I didn't see anything in Tom's initial post yesterday that explicitly said the intention is to give one a recordable solution. Doesn't rule out renting a standalone tuner like these: http://www.epvision.com/

I am guessing an input from SWM would be impractical because there still has to be a physical tuner somewhere in the HR2x. If I understand correctly the SWM is - at its most simplest definition - a frequency manager with no real demodulating/decoding capabilities. So it at best can only forward the signal - there still has to be a receiver at the end. That doesn't rule out building some kind of box that takes input from swm - decodes the signal and re-encodes it to a 'satellite' signal - but I imagine that would cost equal or more than HR20 - and would be just silly.

So out of the remaining I/O that leaves ethernet port or USB. And there are solutions for both - but the USB is cheapest.

And within usb realm - there are the stick and the tiny box types. Most of the tiny boxes have hw encoders - some even have AVC and dual tuners. So little overhead for the hr2x host system - just write it to disk/buffer (not exactly sure how you get it from usb in to hdmi out). And of course they normally have their own little remotes - just to throw in another wrench.

The stick type - I haven't seen any with dual tuners and I am guessing there is no room for encoder circuitry so they must rely on the host. My personal experience on the HR20 is that when I am listening to music and then change to an MPEG4 channel - during the actual tuning and start of getting enough packets to build the image, I get a momentary interruption in the music. So I am curious if adding another software task would take away cycles from something else - i.e. the mythbusters episode I am recording in the background.


----------



## cpanic

bhelton71 said:


> I am amazed no one has mentioned the HD Homerun. Just looking at it seems like it would be ideal - ethernet interface, has dual tuners - so I am guessing 2 HR21s could address it. Of course the price may be a sticking point. And I am not exactly sure how it works so maybe totally inappropriate for this application.


I was just going to suggest the HDHomeRun. It would be the perfect fit with the HR21's extra ethernet port.

Here is the link to the manufacturer's website


----------



## Tom Robertson

GP245 said:


> Concerning if the SWMs supports diplexing, the answer is yes.
> 
> In fact, the SWM 8 has an O-T-A input built into it.
> 
> For the SWM 5, you have to diplex externally with a separate diplex unit.


Yes, SWM supports diplexing of OTA signals. To clarify that thought a bit, current receiver models do not support the diplexed signal with ATSC tuners internal. The signals still need to be separated back out before entry into the receiver.

Perhaps future models will have both OTA and support a diplexed signal giving a simpler connection, truly a single coax solution all the way into the receiver. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## houskamp

Just find it interesting that so many have said "decode and rencode" for OTA... they already have the decoder in the box... seems it would be pretty easy to freqency translate OTA to the sat inputs (with some sort of Bband converter type thing) since what the Bbands do is this already....


----------



## Doug Brott

gcisko said:


> For the gazzilionth time will someone please explain this? I have OTA now via the HR20. Rumor is that the HR20 will still live on. So what exactly do you mean that "there WILL be a solution for OTA. We just don't know what that is"?


In your case, you're set. The concern has been whether or not the HR20 will continue to be manufactured. I don't know the answer to that question, but I have no reason to believe that it will be stopped. The HR21 does not have OTA and one possible solution that I and other have speculated is that it will be some sort of USB ATSC tuner dongle. We (meaning you and I) really don't know anything at this point. The only statement of fact that we have is "There will be a solution for OTA." We have also been told that that is all we are going to be told for now. Anything beyond that statement is pure speculation at this point and exactly what this thread is here to discuss.


----------



## bhelton71

houskamp said:


> Just find it interesting that so many have said "decode and rencode" for OTA... they already have the decoder in the box... seems it would be pretty easy to freqency translate OTA to the sat inputs (with some sort of Bband converter type thing) since what the Bbands do is this already....


I probably used the wrong terminology - its all rocket science to me  - what I was attempting to express is that because I assumed in the absence of an 8VSB demodulator it seems like it would have to change it to the modulation of the satellite tuner can use (isn't some sort of phased keying ?)


----------



## w6fxj

Just an update on the availability of HR20's fron DirecTV authorised retailers: In answer to my email request for availbility Erica Mazur of SolidSignal.com said:

"The HR20s are discontinued and we will not be getting anymore in stock. All I meant if any DIRECTV retailer has any remaining stock that would be the only hope of getting an HR20. Once they are gone they are gone. Only receiver available will be the HR21. I apologize for any confusion."

It would seem that their DirecTV equipment supplier told them that manufacture of the HR20 has been stopped, at least for now.


----------



## bobnielsen

A SWM with built-in ATSC tuner would be a possibility.


----------



## Tom Robertson

kcmurphy88 said:


> ...
> This all blew up because the HR21 drops that support, and the D10 sat didn't add a lot of HD LiL. Add to that reports that HR20's are hard to come by and it's rant time. I did my share, too. This thread is about how to provide OTA as an add-on, and what might be acceptable.


Be aware, D10 wasn't supposed to carry LILs yet. The immediate focus was on Nationals. D10 will carry its share of spotbeams. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

w6fxj said:


> It would seem that their DirecTV equipment supplier told them that manufacture of the HR20 has been stopped, at least for now.


Maybe one plan is to have all HR20's come via DirecTV directly (only), with the newer HR21 being the retail-available unit.

I spoke to the nearby Circuit City manager this past weekend, and he told me that while they had both HR20's and HR21's in stock, when the in-store supply was gone, that was it. I asked what that meant. He told me that Circuit City plans to continue selling DirecTV services, but doesn't plan to carry any in-store hardware in the future, as D*TV themselves will supply the units within the ordering and install process.

BB (Saturday) still had a ton of both HR20's and HR21's, as did CostCo (today) in stock at the stores.

So what all of this may possibly mean is that retailers will eventually NOT be the source of equipment anymore, and all hardware/DVR's will be provided directly from D*TV as part of the order/install process. That makes some sense, as then they can reduce regional shortages of any particular model, and also keep a tighter knowledge of actual inventories.


----------



## Robert L

Oh, that's nice if true. Now instead of just walking in an getting a receiver, like I've always done, I'll have to order one from Directv. That way they can send me a rebuilt one if they like. Plus I might have to argue the point of a tech staying away. Way to go Directv, you just keep improving. 

I don't know how many threads there have been over the last year about the HR20 being dropped, but the response was no way, the HR20 is here to stay for a very long time. I guess time will tell. 

Far as the solution for the HR21, no telling what that might be, or if two tuners will be available. Well I bought the 4 year protection plan on my HR20's just so I wouldn't have to deal with Directv. So BB can refund my money if they break if there are none available to exchange/buy. Personally I think its strange pulling out of retail stores, if true.


----------



## ebr

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Maybe one plan is to have all HR20's come via DirecTV directly (only), with the newer HR21 being the retail-available unit.
> 
> I spoke to the nearby Circuit City manager this past weekend, and he told me that while they had both HR20's and HR21's in stock, when the in-store supply was gone, that was it. I asked what that meant. He told me that Circuit City plans to continue selling DirecTV services, but doesn't plan to carry any in-store hardware in the future, as D*TV themselves will supply the units within the ordering and install process.
> 
> BB (Saturday) still had a ton of both HR20's and HR21's, as did CostCo (today) in stock at the stores.
> 
> So what all of this may possibly mean is that retailers will eventually NOT be the source of equipment anymore, and all hardware/DVR's will be provided directly from D*TV as part of the order/install process. That makes some sense, as then they can reduce regional shortages of any particular model, and also keep a tighter knowledge of actual inventories.


It actually seems very odd that you can _buy_ an HR2x at a retail store in the first place since D*'s policy on this box is that they are all leased. Or, am I wrong - is it actually possible to _own_ a HR20 or 21...?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

ebr said:


> It acutally seems very odd that you can _buy_ an HR2x at a retail store in the first place since D*'s policy on this box is that they are all leased. Or, am I wrong - is it actually possible to _own_ a HR20 or 21...?


You can own an HR20/21 if you pay $750 for it through DirecTV. But you have to buy if from DirecTV unless you find someone on eBay that is selling an owned unit by them.

When you get a unit from a retail store the box will tell you that it is leased and you will pay the same leased price that DirecTV charges.


----------



## Herdfan

I have always found CC's selection of D* hardware to be spotty at best. BB has an aisle dedicated to D* hardware showing a live feed and having facings for all current receivers. CC may have a random receiver, usually outdated, sitting on a shelf surrounded by DVD players.


----------



## Racer88

GP245 said:


> Concerning if the SWMs supports diplexing, the answer is yes.
> 
> In fact, the SWM 8 has an O-T-A input built into it.
> 
> For the SWM 5, you have to diplex externally with a separate diplex unit.


All of which is completely useless with no OTA tuner.......


----------



## GP245

Racer88 said:


> All of which is completely useless with no OTA tuner.......


"Completely" is too strong a word.

Yes, I want to have O-T-A signals integrated into my receiver's program guide the way my old Sony H300 does. It's convenient and I would sorely miss a receiver that can't function this way.

Although we don't like it, we deserve and demand more, the SWM-8's O-T-A function can be connected to (you guessed it!) a television's set's RF input.

I'd hate to settle for such a poor compromise.

I want to believe, as has been strongly implied, that Direct is working on ways to allow those who want/need O-T-A to have the function.


----------



## gully_foyle

bhelton71 said:


> Let me break out my pocket knife at this gunfight:
> 
> Just curious - is everyone agreeing that a USB tuner would be a 'most likely' solution? Also I think there are 2 assumptions -
> 
> assumption #1) the USB ports are 2.0 in these boxes - otherwise I think all bets are off on data rates
> and
> assumption #2) the off-air solution interfaces to the sat box and can be recorded. I say that because I didn't see anything in Tom's initial post yesterday that explicitly said the intention is to give one a recordable solution. Doesn't rule out renting a standalone tuner like these: http://www.epvision.com/
> 
> I am guessing an input from SWM would be impractical because there still has to be a physical tuner somewhere in the HR2x. If I understand correctly the SWM is - at its most simplest definition - a frequency manager with no real demodulating/decoding capabilities. So it at best can only forward the signal - there still has to be a receiver at the end. That doesn't rule out building some kind of box that takes input from swm - decodes the signal and re-encodes it to a 'satellite' signal - but I imagine that would cost equal or more than HR20 - and would be just silly.
> 
> So out of the remaining I/O that leaves ethernet port or USB. And there are solutions for both - but the USB is cheapest.
> 
> And within usb realm - there are the stick and the tiny box types. Most of the tiny boxes have hw encoders - some even have AVC and dual tuners. So little overhead for the hr2x host system - just write it to disk/buffer (not exactly sure how you get it from usb in to hdmi out). And of course they normally have their own little remotes - just to throw in another wrench.
> 
> The stick type - I haven't seen any with dual tuners and I am guessing there is no room for encoder circuitry so they must rely on the host. My personal experience on the HR20 is that when I am listening to music and then change to an MPEG4 channel - during the actual tuning and start of getting enough packets to build the image, I get a momentary interruption in the music. So I am curious if adding another software task would take away cycles from something else - i.e. the mythbusters episode I am recording in the background.


I kinda thing you'd store it on the disk as mpeg2, which I believe is used as the basic layer of ATSC. The Broadcom chip in the HR21 can deal with mpeg2, of course. Or some flavors anyway. USB 2.0, or we're done, I think.

Alternative solutions: SWM to an HR20, available on request. This takes the least amount of engineering (zero) or installation grief. An HR10-250 is also possible, as is a new deal with T*Vo.


----------



## gully_foyle

Racer88 said:


> All of which is completely useless with no OTA tuner.......


Or any of the rest of the circuitry required. Tuning it and demodulating the signal still leaves you several steps short of being able to use it for anything. And there is NO ATSC support in the Broadcom chipset.


----------



## flipptyfloppity

kcmurphy88 said:


> Or any of the rest of the circuitry required. Tuning it and demodulating the signal still leaves you several steps short of being able to use it for anything. And there is NO ATSC support in the Broadcom chipset.


That can't really be true. the MPEG2 HD channels are ATSC encoded on D* in all but signaling. As to the signaling, the signals have to be decoded before reaching the Broadcom chip whether they are 8VSB or QAM or whatever.

I'm certain you can make an ATSC recorder with this new Broadcom chipset, as the TiVo HD uses it and it tunes ATSC just fine.


----------



## bhelton71

bobnielsen said:


> A SWM with built-in ATSC tuner would be a possibility.


I thought of that yesterday - but I couldn't figure out how it would work.

Here is how I think off air works (there are a lot of people on the forum who know way more about this stuff than me - so I expect some correction) - I think the steps for off air signal processing are demodulate, demultiplex, decompress, error correction, sychronize video & audio, then format (resolution).

The first look doc established the main processor in the HR21 is a Broadcom BCM7401.

http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/HDTV-SDTV-Video,-Graphics-&-Receiver-Products/BCM7401

The description is pretty impressive - "The data transport module can be configured to support eight record channels for PVR functionality and six AV channels to interface to audio and video decoders." Wow 8!

Anyway if I understand this - basically the frequency tuner and 8vsb demodulator would need to be implemented outside of the box - after that the broadcom chip handles everything else.

Lets say you feed in ota into this 'tunable swm' - so now the internal tuner starts the process by grabbing the frequency and then passes it to demodulate it (probably all in a single chip). At this point I think you get an mpeg2 transport stream. Here is where I get lost - do you put the raw transport stream back on the wire to the sat tuner ? And how do you or can you tell the sat tuner "Ignore this; do not attempt to process - pass to processor" ?

Also how to tune the external tuner ? - I can't quite get my head around how you select a frequency in the external swm tuner - since the sat tuners work thru tones and voltages so maybe you could do that in this case also.


----------



## hasan

kcmurphy88 said:


> Or any of the rest of the circuitry required. Tuning it and demodulating the signal still leaves you several steps short of being able to use it for anything. And there is NO ATSC support in the Broadcom chipset.


.....and there are those of us who could care less whether there is an OTA input on the SWM....I have always run a second line for my OTA antenna...and it is not located anywhere near where an SWM would go. I see these two as pretty unrelated (SWM/OTA duplexing). It's a good feature for some, but has nothing to do with an OTA tuner itself.

The idea of putting a tuner out where the SWM is or at the dish strikes me a pretty strange. The tuner belongs at/near the receiver.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I guess all we can do is wait and see. If I were doing an external OTA, it would be a cool little box that plugs into the network and provides switched digital video, masquerading as OTA to the entire LAN. Just doing the math tells me 100Mbit LAN speed should easily carry 4 possibly 5 full 19.2Mbit streams, and if it were only streaming the part of the signal used by the primary ("-1") feed it could possibly stream 6 to 9. Of course that would probably cost too much.


----------



## hasan

Yes, but what a *cool* idea.

Let's hope USB is viable. Most of the work is already done and integration becomes the only problem. (not that this isn't significant, but at least it isn't starting from scratch).


----------



## Doug Brott

well the good thing is that @ 480Mb/s, USB2.0 should be able to handle 2 OTA streams which is likely the limit of anything that would be available. After all, you can only record two things at one time anyway.


----------



## hasan

That would be ducky, i.e., 2 streams. It would be a riot to test this. I'm drooling in anticipation, should it come to fruition.


----------



## Herdfan

Doug Brott said:


> After all, you can only record two things at one time anyway.


Technically three. Two tuners plus a VOD stream.

It could be possible the manual is correct for a possibly future planned solution. So it could be possible to record from 2 sat tuners plus from the USB port.


----------



## Doug Brott

Herdfan said:


> Technically three. Two tuners plus a VOD stream.
> 
> It could be possible the manual is correct for a possibly future planned solution. So it could be possible to record from 2 sat tuners plus from the USB port.


Oh, now you're just gonna make people dream :lol: .. I suspect that the recording logic that already exists would keep it at 2 streams (plus that elusive On Demand stream I forgot about )


----------



## philslc

Herdfan said:


> Technically three. Two tuners plus a VOD stream.
> 
> It could be possible the manual is correct for a possibly future planned solution. So it could be possible to record from 2 sat tuners plus from the USB port.


Maybe an external OTA tuner that plugs into the USB port.


----------



## Herdfan

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, now you're just gonna make people dream :lol: ..


Isn't that better than the nightmare of no OTA?


----------



## Ed Campbell

gio12 said:


> BUT, I also think the elimination of OTA should be gradual and a date given to all D* consumers. I have it, wnat it and need it. But in reality, how many of D* base needs them?


About 1/3 of D* subscribers have NO access to CBS-HD except via OTA.

None of us have access to PBS-HD except OTA.

There may be a few exceptions, here and there - where waivers still happen; but, that's a lot of programming only accessible for recording via OTA > D* DVR.


----------



## jwd45244

Ed Campbell said:


> About 1/3 of D* subscribers have NO access to CBS-HD except via OTA.


I'd love to know where that number comes from? Are you talking about LIN-owned affiliates? If so, there is no way LIN has CBS affiliates that cover 1/3 of the US.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Ed Campbell said:


> About 1/3 of D* subscribers have NO access to CBS-HD except via OTA.
> 
> None of us have access to PBS-HD except OTA.
> 
> There may be a few exceptions, here and there - where waivers still happen; but, that's a lot of programming only accessible for recording via OTA > D* DVR.





jwd45244 said:


> I'd love to know where that number comes from? Are you talking about LIN-owned affiliates? If so, there is no way LIN has CBS affiliates that cover 1/3 of the US.


According to our list: 
http://hr20.dbstalk.com/html/DIRECTV_lil_list.html

Only 8 of the 66 markets enabled via SAT, are missing CBS.

And those 66 markets, cover 75% of the viewing population

So yes... if you look at the ENTIRE country and all DMA's...

So does 5.5 Million of DirecTV's customers live in one of those 8 DMA's, or DMA's not carried yet?


----------



## Milominderbinder2

Solidsignal has the HR20 back in stock!

- Craig


----------



## Lord Vader

IMHO, and I know it's being discussed in another thread, but it is simply asinine if DirecTV were to cease installation of the HR20 series in favor of the non-OTA HR21. As long as OTA is possible for people, a receiver ought to have that at least _available_, whether a subscriber uses it or not; and if a receiver does not have that available, then there should exist a receiver with it, which is presently the case with the HR20 series.


----------



## bonscott87

Lord Vader said:


> IMHO, and I know it's being discussed in another thread, but it is simply asinine if DirecTV were to cease installation of the HR20 series in favor of the non-OTA HR21. As long as OTA is possible for people, a receiver ought to have that at least _available_, whether a subscriber uses it or not; and if a receiver does not have that available, then there should exist a receiver with it, which is presently the case with the HR20 series.


Because 99% of customers will never use an antenna and will never get one installed. Thus why put a receiver in homes with an OTA tuner that is not needed by most everyone? Save money with a non-OTA model and then make the OTA model available to those that want to use it.


----------



## Lord Vader

bonscott87 said:


> Because 99% of customers will never use an antenna and will never get one installed.


With all due respect, that is a generalization so stupid and so wrong, it warrants no other response.

99%--get real.


----------



## bonscott87

Lord Vader said:


> With all due respect, that is a generalization so stupid and so wrong, it warrants no other response.
> 
> 99%--get real.


But it's true. Of every single person I know only 1 other has an antenna on their house. I know several who have HDTV and ask why they don't have one and the answers are:

1) Why would I want 60s technology, that's what cable is for
2) Wife won't let me put one up
3) It's ugly
4) and so on and so on

And in my market DirecTV doesn't have NBC in HD up yet. Out of the dozen of my friends with DirecTV only 1 other has an antenna.

Think what you will but people just don't want an antenna on their house, period. It's much different on this forum but the facts are the facts.

So how about 98% then.


----------



## Lord Vader

bonscott87 said:


> But it's true.


No, it's not true; it's a rash generalization based on your own personal opinion. It's as wrong as my saying 99% of people _do _use OTA.

If I wanted to, I can dig up literally _hundreds _of people who _do _use OTA. Just follow me to my folks' house and their neighborhood, for one.



> the facts are the facts.


!rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling

Good one!


----------



## bonscott87

Dude, give it up. In some market yes, OTA is important as you can't get cable or channels are available via satellite. Cable has been around in my city for 30 years. Drive up and down every street and you don't see hardly any antennas. 

If you read up on the installer threads, only 1 out of every 40 installs request OTA.

Whatever, you can get an HR20 if you want it and need OTA. This argument is as dumb as it was in the other threads.


----------



## Lord Vader

Indeed. So let's stay away from such rash and flawed arguments like "99% don't use OTA."


----------



## Lord Vader

bonscott87 said:


> Dude, give it up. In some market yes, OTA is important as you can't get cable or channels are available via satellite. Cable has been around in my city for 30 years. Drive up and down every street and you don't see hardly any antennas.
> 
> If you read up on the installer threads, only 1 out of every 40 installs request OTA.
> 
> Whatever, you can get an HR20 if you want it and need OTA. This argument is as dumb as it was in the other threads.


Sorry, bub, but you _are simply wrong_. Period.

You cannot make rash generalizations without facts, and your "facts" are nothing but personal opinions based on some podunk town in which you just happen to live right now.

I'm in a major suburban Chicago area and can drive 20 miles in any direction and couldn't count the number of OTA antennas I see--many in NEW developments--because there are too many of them. The closer one gets to the city--I'm 30 miles southwest of it--the more such antennas exist because of many of those people being of an older generation.

OTA might not be as commonplace as it used to be due to technological advances, but it DOES still exist, and it does tend to be more popular among those who are in the know about these things.

You'd be fun to debate in a speech competition, because your use of illogical assumptions would get you blown out of the water in the first round.



> _*only 1 out of every 40 installs request OTA.*_


How much do you want to bet that this is because they just don't know? It's not unlike those people who buy an HDTV, plug it in, and think they're watching an HD picture when they don't have an HD signal. Explain to a consumer what OTA is, how to get it, and I'd be willing to assume that a majority would desire it, especially when they realize its advantages. BTW, one doesn't need only an outdoor antenna, you know. There are many people who use an indoor antenna of some sort to pull in OTA, so don't dismiss the inability to *see * an OTA antenna as evidence one doesn't *use * OTA.


----------



## GP245

Lord Vader said:


> Sorry, bub, but you _are simply wrong_. Period.
> 
> You cannot make rash generalizations without facts, and your "facts" are nothing but personal opinions based on some podunk town in which you just happen to live right now.
> 
> I'm in a major suburban Chicago area and can drive 20 miles in any direction and couldn't count the number of OTA antennas I see--many in NEW developments--because there are too many of them. The closer one gets to the city--I'm 30 miles southwest of it--the more such antennas exist because of many of those people being of an older generation.
> 
> OTA might not be as commonplace as it used to be due to technological advances, but it DOES still exist, and it does tend to be more popular among those who are in the know about these things.
> 
> You'd be fun to debate in a speech competition, because your use of illogical assumptions would get you blown out of the water in the first round.


Well said and amen!

I live in the canyons of Manhattan. DirecTV does not provide me with an HD version of local CW, my, and PBS.

And I do use the local weather channels provided by the ABC and NBC stations - as you all know, the Weather Channel on DirecTV is useless when it comes to what's happening in your neighborhood.

So, don't blow off the need for OTA - especially OTA that's integrated into my program guide.


----------



## bonscott87

Nobody is blowing off the need for OTA. I need OTA myself or else I'd have no NBC in HD. 

Simply get a receiver that has OTA. Nuff said. I don't get all the venom and gnashing of teeth here.

If you want real numbers, antenna usage in the U.S is under 20%. Higher in rural areas, lower in the cities. Those are the true facts.


----------



## cmoss5

Lord Vader said:


> IMHO, and I know it's being discussed in another thread, but it is simply asinine if DirecTV were to cease installation of the HR20 series in favor of the non-OTA HR21. As long as OTA is possible for people, a receiver ought to have that at least _available_, whether a subscriber uses it or not; and if a receiver does not have that available, then there should exist a receiver with it, which is presently the case with the HR20 series.


I agree, when we lose satellite signals due to weather or whatever, I switch to my local channels on the OTA of my HR20-700..

FLASH!!!FLASH!!! HR20-100 BEING RECALLED!!!!!!!! MINE STARTED GOING DOWN EVERY 2 OR 3 HOURS...DID RESET EVERYTHING PER DIRECTV...INSTEAD OF GOING AHEAD AND REPLACING, SENDING TECH TO HOME ON 11/06..CALLED THE TECH WHO INSTALLED MY HR20-100 ON 10/17/2007 AND HE TOLD ME THESE HR20-100 ARE BEING RECALLED...TOLD HIM I WANTED THE HR20-700, NOT THE HR21, HE SAID DIRECTV WAS REPLACING THE HR20-100 WITH A NEW (((???????)))) HD DVR THAT HAS NOT BEEN DISCUSSED IN THIS FORUM YET....TRYING TO GET EARL TO FIND OUT MORE ON THIS AND GET BACK TO ME ON THIS...


----------



## RAD

bonscott87 said:


> Think what you will but people just don't want an antenna on their house, period. It's much different on this forum but the facts are the facts.


'On the house' is something that's not a valid way to determine if OTA is being used. I see Earl also post about how few antenna's he sees on roofs. There's a bunch of people that do have OTA using either antennas in the attic or an indoor model. Until I had to with a roof mount to get WBBM-DT back in Chicago (due to being on ch3) I've always had antennas in the attic. My son and another couple we know use an indoor antenna, only one person I know has one of the roof due to distance from the transmitters.


----------



## Lord Vader

bonscott87 said:


> Simply get a receiver that has OTA.


And that's why I said *replacing * an OTA IRD with a non-OTA IRD is stupid. Having *both * an OTA and a non-OTA IRD is fine, because at least there's an option there.



> _
> If you want real numbers, antenna usage in the U.S is under 20%. _


So that would mean 80% aren't using antennas. What happened to the "99%" to which you've alluded more than once today? Wow. Lots of people just hooked up antennas in the last two hours, eh? 

BTW, I'd be willing to bet that that 80% to which you refer is nowhere near accurate. It is very difficult to get an accurate estimate on such numbers, which is why I'm not stating any concrete percentages here.


----------



## leww37334

OTA usage with references.

San Jose Mercury news says 20 million households get signals OTA

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_6916264

Average household size 2.57 people

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2003/tabAVG1.pdf

People in the US: about 303 M

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_6916264

Total households in us 303M/2.57 = 118 M

20/118 = 16.9%


----------



## Lord Vader

Those numbers are probably as accurate as Nielsen numbers, Arbitron numbers, etc. There is just no way to tell either way.


----------



## Tom Robertson

cmoss5 said:


> I agree, when we lose satellite signals due to weather or whatever, I switch to my local channels on the OTA of my HR20-700..
> 
> FLASH!!!FLASH!!! HR20-100 BEING RECALLED!!!!!!!! MINE STARTED GOING DOWN EVERY 2 OR 3 HOURS...DID RESET EVERYTHING PER DIRECTV...INSTEAD OF GOING AHEAD AND REPLACING, SENDING TECH TO HOME ON 11/06..CALLED THE TECH WHO INSTALLED MY HR20-100 ON 10/17/2007 AND HE TOLD ME THESE HR20-100 ARE BEING RECALLED...TOLD HIM I WANTED THE HR20-700, NOT THE HR21, HE SAID DIRECTV WAS REPLACING THE HR20-100 WITH A NEW (((???????)))) HD DVR THAT HAS NOT BEEN DISCUSSED IN THIS FORUM YET....TRYING TO GET EARL TO FIND OUT MORE ON THIS AND GET BACK TO ME ON THIS...


You news flash is inaccurate. The HR20-100 is still being manufactured and is not being replaced. Confirmed with DIRECTV contacts that would definitely know.

A true statement is the -700 model is transitioning to the HR21. There are still a fair number of HR20-700s in the channels at the moment.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## davidjplatt

Some of the comments being made in this thread are so absurd!!! How can people claim 80% or 90% or 99% of people don't use OTA? How could you claim the inverse?

Of thirty people I work with that have HDTVs and DirecTV, all but one or two have antennas - indoor, attic or outdoor. Almost every one of them uses OTA.

I wouldn't be without OTA - If I'm recording two programs on the HR20-100, I can watch a third if it is on a local digital channel directly on the set. In addition, I live in the DC area and with an OTA antenna I get Baltimore stations also. That gives me options when programs are preempted in DC. In addition, I get all of the sub channels, MyNetwork, the CW and PBS - can't get those on DirecTV.

DirecTV needs to be able to provide a DVR with OTA to those that need them or want them - period. If they don't they won't be able to compete. Verizon FIOS TV in my area has all of the digital channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS, MyNetwork, CW, Maryland Public television) and all of the sub channels. If DirecTV doesn't provide OTA I can't get all of the channels I could get from Cox or Verizon. I'd switch - period.


----------



## allenn

davidjplatt said:


> DirecTV needs to be able to provide a DVR with OTA to those that need them or want them - period. If they don't they won't be able to compete. Verizon FIOS TV in my area has all of the digital channels (ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, PBS, MyNetwork, CW, Maryland Public television) and all of the sub channels. If DirecTV doesn't provide OTA I can't get all of the channels I could get from Cox or Verizon. I'd switch - period.


Amen brother!

I ordered an HR20 because I wanted OTA like my HR10. D* delivered an HR21 each time I requested an HR20. The HR21 that D* delivered does not provide any options for receiving the OTA sub-channels. And to top it all off, I cannot find an HR20-700 in my area. The retailers have phased them out in favor of the HR21. If D* had the sub-channels then OTA would not be an issue for me.


----------



## CT_Wiebe

My 2 cents worth:

Yes, I have a TV set with a built-in ASTC tuner for OTA reception. However, I also watch TV using my Front Projector (watching HDTV on a 106" screen beats any TV set sold). FPs are monitors with NO tuners. Therefore, having integrated DBS/OTA capability is a necessity for me!

An external (USB or otherwise) OTA tuner is an acceptable solution only if the guide & programming functions can be integrated into the H2x receiver's OSD guide. If the guide can't be "integrated", then the "solution" is unsatisfactory for my application.

I am fortunate (apparently) to find a working HR20 (the 2nd one - the 1st one had a defective Access Card reader) at my local CC store (I got a H20 with my initial HD installation last year).

In my case, switching from D* to E* or cable (Comcast  ) will cost me more money than any integrated DirecTV solution (for my package combination). If I'm going to have to use an external OTA solution (in the future), and pay more for it, then it must not be a "leased" solution - i.e. a one time, sub-$100, charge, period! Otherwise, I have the technical capability to add my own, non-integrated, solution, and DirecTV will have lost considerable "points" in our household.

PS {my soapbox} -- The arguments on the percentages of OTA use are ridiculous, IMHO, since all TVs in existing households (100%) have some kind of OTA/local TV reception capability. There may be a small number, in poor rural areas that only use a VCR, or other "canned" video source, but those are an extremely low percentage.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

CT_Wiebe said:


> PS {my soapbox} -- The arguments on the percentages of OTA use are ridiculous, IMHO, since all TVs in existing households (100%) have some kind of OTA/local TV reception capability. There may be a small number, in poor rural areas that only use a VCR, or other "canned" video source, but those are an extremely low percentage.


FYI: Not all TV's have the capability.
My plasma does not have a tuner of any type (NTSC/ATSC)

3 other TV's in my house also don't have NTSC/ATSC tuners
SAT-GO, Humax LCD, and my SAMSUNG FlipTop

You also have people that have projector displays


----------



## Herdfan

You would never know I had not one but TWO antennas at my house because I have them in the attic away from view. I have helped a couple of neighbors put antennas in their attics as well.


----------



## yogi

This unit is discontinued and has been replaced by the New HR21 HD DVR


----------



## Earl Bonovich

yogi said:


> This unit is discontinued and has been replaced by the New HR21 HD DVR


False.
The HR20 has not been discontinued.
The HR21 is just another receiver line.


----------



## gio12

Lord Vader said:


> Sorry, bub, but you _are simply wrong_. Period.
> 
> You cannot make rash generalizations without facts, and your "facts" are nothing but personal opinions based on some podunk town in which you just happen to live right now.
> 
> I'm in a major suburban Chicago area and can drive 20 miles in any direction and couldn't count the number of OTA antennas I see--many in NEW developments--because there are too many of them. The closer one gets to the city--I'm 30 miles southwest of it--the more such antennas exist because of many of those people being of an older generation.


Well I am in a major suburban area in Miami and I can tell you that very, very few house have a OTA up. Every new development here has ZERO! I mean ZERO! There are more new developments here that I can imagine or tell you. NONE have them. My wife is in comerical relestate but she has frinds in home building. I as well know the developeers and noe build homes with OTA. In Dade or Broward county you are no more than 25miles for EVERY major antenna here. OTA is very easy to get and there is over 30 staion with subs boradcast here. Even the projects use cable or Rabbit ears. Hell rabbit ears are used from HD in a CC near me.

But almost no one with SAT or cable that i know would even sue one. Only the techies. I asked a D and E* installers here and no uses them. I lve in a affulent neighbor hood and vey few house have them. The ones that do are older foilks and thos houses are kinda in need of reapair and are form the 1940's.

Almost NO One uses OTA here. I do as I learned with SAT and Rain Fade that it's needed. I would nor use or maybe even stay with D* without a DVR with full OTA capabilities. Now I would pay a small one-time fee for a box though....

So you Metro area rant does not fly here. :nono2:


----------



## BJM

Hm... I wonder if the value of my HR20 (which even with all the CEs etc. has had very few problems) just went up...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> I'm in a major suburban Chicago area and can drive 20 miles in any direction and couldn't count the number of OTA antennas I see--many in NEW developments--because there are too many of them. The closer one gets to the city--I'm 30 miles southwest of it--the more such antennas exist because of many of those people being of an older generation.


Not that I am going to delve into it too much
But I too live in a major suburb of Chicago... and can drive pretty much 20 miles N, W, E (as if I go S... it is mostly farm land, and you are not going to find many homes).

And there are a lot of new subdivision here.... and you might even have a chance to count the OTA antennas on your hands and feet.

So unless we are looking at drastically different areas (and I am SW too).

It all depends on the area and when they are built....

You can't also "assume" anything about the OTA anntenna being there or not... 
As mine is in my attic and connected, but primarily used now as an FM radio antenna. 
My mother has two on her roof, and neither are connected....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

BJM said:


> Hm... I wonder if the value of my HR20 (which even with all the CEs etc. has had very few problems) just went up...


Considering that you can't sell it....
Does it matter?


----------



## Lord Vader

gio12 said:


> Well I am in a major suburban area in Miami and I can tell you that very, very few house have a OTA up.


That's because they'd all get blown down by the tropical storms and hurricanes.



gio12 said:


> So you Metro area rant does not fly here. :nono2:


Yes it does. Basing everything on Miami is silly, especially considering as a metro area, Miami is small compared to Chicago.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not that I am going to delve into it too much
> But I too live in a major suburb of Chicago... and can drive pretty much 20 miles N, W, E (as if I go S... it is mostly farm land, and you are not going to find many homes).
> 
> And there are a lot of new subdivision here.... and you might even have a chance to count the OTA antennas on your hands and feet.
> 
> So unless we are looking at drastically different areas (and I am SW too).
> 
> It all depends on the area and when they are built....
> 
> You can't also "assume" anything about the OTA anntenna being there or not...
> As mine is in my attic and connected, but primarily used now as an FM radio antenna.
> My mother has two on her roof, and neither are connected....


Tinley Park's more south than west. I'm in Lisle, which is west/southwest. My folks are in near west suburban Cook, 11 miles due west of the city.

I'm not pro-OTA or anti-OTA. Instead, I'm simply saying one cannot and should not dismiss it outright based on illogical assumptions, which is what some here are doing. To say, "OTA isn't needed because I don't use it" is just as boneheaded as saying, "OTA is needed because I use it." Right now, there are still many folks who (a) want it, or (b) need it, or (c) like it; and as long as that situation exists, it is unwise to totally remove from the marketplace a receiver that does not have OTA as an option.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> Yes it does. Basing everything on Miami is silly, especially considering as a metro area, Miami is small compared to Chicago.


Miami is the 16th DMA... so it is a pretty big population.

And last I checked... DirecTV is a NATIONAL carrier... so they have to look at much bigger picture... then just Chicago or Miami... or the 30 miles around "my house"...


----------



## Lord Vader

16th is nothing compared to 3. It's also a very different area geographically, so that throws it out as a poor comparison. A more appropriate comparison would have been NY, LA, Philadelphia, or Houston.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> Tinley Park's more south than west. I'm in Lisle, which is west/southwest. My folks are in near west suburban Cook, 11 miles due west of the city.
> 
> I'm not pro-OTA or anti-OTA. Instead, I'm simply saying one cannot and should not dismiss it outright based on illogical assumptions, which is what some here are doing. To say, "OTA isn't needed because I don't use it" is just as boneheaded as saying, "OTA is needed because I use it." Right now, there are still many folks who (a) want it, or (b) need it, or (c) like it; and as long as that situation exists, it is unwise to totally remove from the marketplace a receiver that does not have OTA as an option.


But how many are in (A), (B), or (C) based on the bigger picture that DirecTV looks at... at "THEIR" targeted consumer bases....

They are the ones that have more data then any of us.....
Does anyone truely thing they just made this decision "willy nilly" ?

And with that... I am bowing out again....
As stated earlier in this thread:

1) HR20's have OTA and they are not discontinued
2) HR21's dont' have OTA
3) DirecTV will continue to have a solution for OTA

Untile one of those those 3 change... there is not much else to talk about....


----------



## ebr

Lord Vader said:


> That's because they'd all get blown down by the tropical storms and hurricanes.
> 
> Yes it does. Basing everything on Miami is silly, especially considering as a metro area, Miami is small compared to Chicago.


Basing your assumptions on antennas you see in the air is silly as well since the only antennas that matter would be ones in use by D* customers for the purpose of digital reception. There is no way to know for sure how many of these there are but I'd bet a bunch of money that a discussion something like this happened a year or so ago at D*:

- How can we cut the cost of these boxes since we take a loss on every one of them?

- Well, we could take out the OTA tuners...

- Whoa, how can we do that? Won't people need those?

- Well, we've got plans to get x% of our current and prospective customers their locals via Sat.

- Well, maybe we better look into this. Lets find out from our installers how many people are hooking up the OTA tuners on these boxes - just the new HD DVRs because that's what we're talking about

- Okay.

[time passes]

- Looks like less than x% of our installers are being asked to install OTA on these things.

- Okay - yank 'em out.

- But, we might lose a few customers...

- Yeah, and we'll save $20+ a box. Yank it out.

Its all business, guys. I do understand those of you who want your OTA. There can be lots of good reasons for that - but you guys are a (very vocal) minority in the base of customers.

So I understand your desire for OTA. What I just don't understand is why in the world you would think that your Satellite TV provider is somehow _obligated_ to provide it to you.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> 16th is nothing compared to 3. It's also a very different area geographically, so that throws it out as a poor comparison. A more appropriate comparison would have been NY, LA, Philadelphia, or Houston.


Doesn't matter... they are still an EXTREMELY large population....

There is no "proper" comparison... not even NY, LA, Phily, or anywhere...
EVERY DMA is different... EVERY City in each of those DMA's is different then the rest....


----------



## gio12

> Lord Vader said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's because they'd all get blown down by the tropical storms and hurricanes.
> 
> 
> 
> No I KNOW your are clueless. They actually hold up VERY well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it does. Basing everything on Miami is silly, especially considering as a metro area, Miami is small compared to Chicago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again is show your pretty ignorant. Yes, City Miami is no as big as Chiago, but when you inlcude Greater Miami/Dade County you are talking about 2 million people. Add Broward as well call SFLA it's getting pretty large.
> 
> Miami IS a major city and TV market. top 20.
Click to expand...


----------



## lman

I live in a rural area where OTA and satellite are the only options. No cable available. My parents and in-laws both use OTA exclusively. When I got DTV over 10 years ago it gave me the opportunity to have the same options as urban areas. DTV still does not have HD local channels by satellite in my area. When all areas have HD locals then OTA could be removed as an option.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) HR20's have OTA and they are not discontinued
> 2) HR21's dont' have OTA
> 3) DirecTV will continue to have a solution for OTA
> 
> Untile one of those those 3 change... there is not much else to talk about....


1) A good thing
2) Not a problem for those who don't need OTA
3) A good idea as long as there are people who want/need OTA


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gio12 said:


> No I KNOW your are clueless. They actually hold up VERY well.
> 
> Again is show your pretty ignorant. Yes, City Miami is no as big as Chiago, but when you inlcude Greater Miami/Dade County you are talking about 2 million people. Add Broward as well call SFLA it's getting pretty large.
> 
> Miami IS a major city and TV market. top 20.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to bring politics in this... but factually speaking...
> Wasn't "Miami" one of the tipping points that could have altered history as we know it?
> 
> To exclude any large city/area is just as absurb as excluding "assuming" that a count of antennas in a 20 mile area.. is indicative of DirecTV entire coverage area.
> 
> ------------------
> 
> <MODERATOR HAT ON>
> Enough with the personal attacks.... if you want to discuss... discuss...
> But enough with the name calling.
> </MODERATOR HAT OFF>
Click to expand...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> I live in a rural area where OTA and satellite are the only options. No cable available. My parents and in-laws both use OTA exclusively. When I got DTV over 10 years ago it gave me the opportunity to have the same options as urban areas. DTV still does not have HD local channels by satellite in my area. When all areas have HD locals then OTA could be removed as an option.


So then ATSC tuners should have been included in all the other receivers... 
As there are still many DMA's that dont' have SD Locals available on DirecTV....


----------



## Lord Vader

gio12 said:


> No I KNOW your are clueless. They actually hold up VERY well.


Get a sense of humor first of all.



> Again is show your pretty ignorant. Yes, City Miami is no as big as Chiago, but when you inlcude Greater Miami/Dade County you are talking about 2 million people. Add Broward as well call SFLA it's getting pretty large.
> 
> Miami IS a major city and TV market. top 20.


Since you brought it up, I'll include the Chicago Metropolitan area, which has approx. 9 million people, dwarfing Miami. In fact, Cook County, in which Chicago is located, has a population greater than 36 states. #3 here is much different from #16.

And I haven't even counted northwest Indiana and southeast Wisconsin, two areas many believe should be included in the Chicago metropolitan area.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Enough............

<MODERATOR HAT ON>
Enough with the personal attacks.... if you want to discuss... discuss...
But enough with the name calling.
</MODERATOR HAT OFF>


----------



## Lord Vader

Methinks some people are hypersensitive, Earl. Too many of these OTA dismissers seem to be getting angry just because someone mentions that OTA is still a viable feature.


----------



## Thaedron

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) HR20's have OTA and they are not discontinued
> 2) HR21's dont' have OTA
> 3) DirecTV will continue to have a solution for OTA
> 
> Untile one of those those 3 change... there is not much else to talk about....


IMHO much of the discussion (aside from debating the populations of Miami and Chicago) is the conflict between #1 and #2. All us techie geeks (myself included) want the latest/newest/best/most feature rich product we can get our hands on that comes in the color that matches the rest of our gear. The HR21 has all of that except OTA. Thus, even though they are functionally equivalent except for OTA, having "the best" puts one in conflict if OTA is important to them.

Just my $0.02.

Personally, I wish the HR21 still had an OTA capability. For my situation, I don't need OTA ATSC HD DVR capability at all locations, so I'm happy with a mix of HR20 and HR21 receivers. I also hold out hope that when MRV becomes available, only one receiver in the house would truly need to be OTA cabable.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not to bring politics in this... but factually speaking...
> Wasn't "Miami" one of the tipping points that could have altered history as we know it?


Now you're not talking about the 2000 presidential election, are you?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Thaedron said:


> IMHO much of the discussion (aside from debating the populations of Miami and Chicago) is the conflict between #1 and #2. All us techie geeks (myself included) want the latest/newest/best/most feature rich product we can get our hands on that comes in the color that matches the rest of our gear. The HR21 has all of that except OTA. Thus, even though they are functionally equivalent except for OTA, having "the best" puts one in conflict if OTA is important to them.
> 
> Just my $0.02.
> 
> Personally, I wish the HR21 still had an OTA capability. For my situation, I don't need OTA ATSC HD DVR capability at all locations, so I'm happy with a mix of HR20 and HR21 receivers. I also hold out hope that when MRV becomes available, only one receiver in the house would truly need to be OTA cabable.


There is no "one" product that has everything.... so us geeks/techies/want to have it all... have historically (and will continue) to have to have multiple devices to have "it all"


----------



## Doug Brott

CT_Wiebe said:


> PS {my soapbox} -- The arguments on the percentages of OTA use are ridiculous, IMHO, since all TVs in existing households (100%) have some kind of OTA/local TV reception capability. There may be a small number, in poor rural areas that only use a VCR, or other "canned" video source, but those are an extremely low percentage.


I'm in Pleasanton .. just a bit north of you and over the hill .. I can't get jack even though I do have an OTA tuner. I was able to get OTA in Livermore just a few miles farther out because the signal could easily clear the mountain that I am now closer to.

Unfortunately, there are limitations to the use of OTA .. visibility of the signal, aesthetic preferences, etc. So even IF every set in America could receive OTA, the use would not be 100%.


----------



## lowgolfer

I need OTA as my HD lils are not yet available.


----------



## jwd45244

lowgolfer said:


> I need OTA as my HD lils are not yet available.


Your sig shows you already have an HR20, so how are you not getting what you want?


----------



## Doug Brott

Oh, and the debate has continued to rage about the need for OTA. Remember, the thread title here .. *DIRECTV Re: OTA: "We Will Have a Solution"* .. So apparently, if you need it - you'll have it and if you don't .. well, you may not have it because DIRECTV wants to reduce the overall cost of the receivers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> Methinks some people are hypersensitive, Earl. Too many of these OTA dismissers seem to be getting angry just because someone mentions that OTA is still a viable feature.


Me thinks it is too sensitive on all sides...

Those that think OTA is the end-all-be all are just as senstive as well.
Those that think DirecTV is out to "screw them all"... are just as senstive as well.


----------



## Jon J

Earl Bonovich re: selling an HR20 said:


> Considering that you can't sell it....
> Does it matter?


Don't forget, Earl, some of us actually do own our receivers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jon J said:


> Don't forget, Earl, some of us actually do own our receivers.


And your percentage would be so small... those that spent the $800 plus, and the few that have managed to convince DirecTV to flag their system as owned vs leased...


----------



## yogi

Earl Bonovich said:


> False.
> The HR20 has not been discontinued.
> The HR21 is just another receiver line.


 That's what it said at http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HR20.
But, Everything that I'm told. When stock is gone.(when all the part that go into them are gone) There gone. Which will be awhile yet. A long while.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The HR20 is not discontinued. The HR20-100 is still being manufactured today.

The HR20-700 is being transitioned to the HR21-700, with stock still available.

And there will be an OTA solution.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## gio12

> Not to bring politics in this... but factually speaking...
> Wasn't "Miami" one of the tipping points that could have altered history as we know it?


Acutally Broward county with the jugde that stopped the counting.! But it was also Palm Beach where a whole lot of stauch Dems voted for pat Bucahanan by accident. In Dade you votes get lost and not counted. Yes, Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004. I apologize to the world for our mistakes here...

But it's Middel America that destroyed the US and those Red Hill Billy Sates.
:soapbox:

------------------

<MODERATOR HAT ON>
Enough with the personal attacks.... if you want to discuss... discuss...
But enough with the name calling.
</MODERATOR HAT OFF>[/quote]


----------



## gio12

Lord Vader said:


> Now you're not talking about the 2000 presidential election, are you?


Sadly yes. But don't forget Ohio in 2004!


----------



## gio12

Earl Bonovich said:


> Doesn't matter... they are still an EXTREMELY large population....


Correct. And growing very fast! The State of Florida will trail only CA by 2012 in population.
Miami Metro is aslo the most populist city in the state.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alright... sorry for introducing the "political" aspect of it... as tried to keep the political part out of it.... and refered to the "historical" fact that Miami is just as important as Chicago (or any other DMA)


----------



## Incog-Neato

Just FYI, anyone who got an HR20/21 as a replacement for an *owned* HR10 through the protection plan - not as an upgrade - owns the HR20/21. "Owned replaced by owned. "Doris" says so ...... Also, (at least as of this time) mdu type customers own their advanced equipment regardless of if they purchased it at retail or got it from their system operator unless their system opertator has their own leasing plan as an option to buying the receiver. It's the mdu customers who need the OTA more then anyone because most mdu type properties aren't ka/ku ready at this time and they get their HD locals off a master antenna. D* is hurting the mdu type market with the 21 series.


Earl Bonovich said:


> And your percentage would be so small... those that spent the $800 plus, and the few that have managed to convince DirecTV to flag their system as owned vs leased...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MisterEd said:


> It's the mdu customers who need the OTA more then anyone because most mdu type properties aren't ka/ku ready at this time and they get their HD locals off a master antenna. D* is hurting the mdu type market with the 21 series.


There are a VERY small percentage of MDU's that are wired for the MPEG-4 systems... (VERY VERY small)...

And then those that are... doubt full they have the third wire necessary to carry the OTA non-diplexed... because no MDU's is going to do the "hack" install of moving the B-Band converter next to the multiswitch.

So I highly highly doubt that it is "hurting" the MDU market with the lack of OTA....


----------



## mhayes70

Tom Robertson said:


> The HR20 is not discontinued. The HR20-100 is still being manufactured today.
> 
> The HR20-700 is being transitioned to the HR21-700, with stock still available.
> 
> And there will be an OTA solution.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Very well put Tom. So, the HR20-700 is being phased out. But, the HR20-100 will be in production for a while, correct?

I am just glad that Directv has a solution for the OTA on the HR21 and people will be able to get OTA if they need it with the HR21.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I was not given any indication on the HR20-100 production cycles (nor did I expect to get one). 

My guess is that DIRECTV needs to make as many HR2Xs as fast as they can, hr20-100 is going to be made for some time yet. Again, my personal guess; I might get a note tomorrow that the solution is out. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## gio12

Tom Robertson said:


> I was not given any indication on the HR20-100 production cycles (nor did I expect to get one).
> 
> My guess is that DIRECTV needs to make as many HR2Xs as fast as they can, hr20-100 is going to be made for some time yet. Again, my personal guess; I might get a note tomorrow that the solution is out.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


That's fine. I don't care if it's the 700 or 100 series. I just wnat the HR20 or ant DVR that has OTA built in and functions like it does today!


----------



## Jon J

Earl Bonovich said:


> And your percentage would be so small... those that spent the $800 plus, and the few that have managed to convince DirecTV to flag their system as owned vs leased...


This is not meant as a contradiction, Earl, but more of us with the Protection Plan are replacing failing HR10s with HR20s. These receivers should show up as owned so the numbers may increase somewhat although, as you point out, the percentage won't be huge.


----------



## Incog-Neato

You misunderstood me. BECAUSE (as you said) the vast majority of mdu's are *NOT* Ka/Ku ready (yet) they RELY on OTA to be able to record HD locals. So without an OTA input as the 20-700 does have it IS hurting mdu for those now getting H21's/HR21's. A very large % of mdu's get HD locals via a diplexed connection to their HR20's, H20's and HR10's because they are NOT MFH2 yet. Customers getting new HR21's in mdu's are quite unhappy because they can no longer be diplexed to the master hd off-air local antenna for locals as their neighbors are who have HR20's and HR10's are. SINCE MOST mdu's are NOT ka/ku (yet) they DO NOT use BBC's so diplex works just fine on their HR20's (of couse without the new HD programming). So not only can they NOT get new HD programming but they can't even get their HD locals with the HR21. So they are left with 7 cruddy hd channels, no locals AND no new HD. That is why the HR21 is hurting mdus.

Also, FYI, mdu's wired with MFH2 will NOT have to use BBC's to get all 5 sats nor will mdu's with MFH3 as that is via ethernet.



Earl Bonovich said:


> There are a VERY small percentage of MDU's that are wired for the MPEG-4 systems... (VERY VERY small)...
> 
> And then those that are... doubt full they have the third wire necessary to carry the OTA non-diplexed... because no MDU's is going to do the "hack" install of moving the B-Band converter next to the multiswitch.
> 
> So I highly highly doubt that it is "hurting" the MDU market with the lack of OTA....


----------



## bhelton71

Tom Robertson said:


> <SNIP>
> Again, my personal guess; I might get a note tomorrow that the solution is out.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Is that a hint ?

:lol:

No... that's just what they'll be expecting us to do!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MisterEd said:


> You misunderstood me. BECAUSE (as you said) the vast majority of mdu's are *NOT* Ka/Ku ready (yet) they RELY on OTA to be able to record HD locals. So without an OTA input as the 20-700 does have it IS hurting mdu for those now getting H21's/HR21's. A very large % of mdu's get HD locals via a diplexed connection to their HR20's, H20's and HR10's because they are NOT MFH2 yet. Customers getting new HR21's in mdu's are quite unhappy because they can no longer be diplexed to the master hd off-air local antenna for locals as their neighbors are who have HR20's and HR10's are. SINCE MOST mdu's are NOT ka/ku (yet) they DO NOT use BBC's so diplex works just fine on their HR20's (of couse without the new HD programming). So not only can they NOT get new HD programming but they can't even get their HD locals with the HR21. So they are left with 7 cruddy hd channels, no locals AND no new HD. That is why the HR21 is hurting mdus.
> 
> Also, FYI, mdu's wired with MFH2 will NOT have to use BBC's to get all 5 sats nor will mdu's with MFH3 as that is via ethernet.


If they where not wired for MPEG-4... why would they be consdering an HR20 series box? I would suspect... most of them will continue with what ever hardware they had today, as what woudl be the driving force to upgrade today?

I never stated that they rely on OTA for their recording.... IMHO... I think the MDU market for DirecTV extremely small, and that the percentages of those that are in MDU's that were HD enabled, so people had HD equipment, is even smaller then that...

And those that are, not going to "gain" anything why go to an HR series box... there is a viable market out there for older equipment... that they will be able to use to their fullest.

So I doubt it is making any type of "damage" to the MDU market and more so that it is damaging "other" markets.

And yes... I am very much aware of how the MFH2 and MFH3 will work..


----------



## Tom Robertson

bhelton71 said:


> Is that a hint ?
> 
> :lol:
> 
> No... that's just what they'll be expecting us to do!


Ask me tomorrow. !Devil_lol


----------



## Earl Bonovich

yogi said:


> That's what it said at http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HR20.
> But, Everything that I'm told. When stock is gone.(when all the part that go into them are gone) There gone. Which will be awhile yet. A long while.


Not to pick on SolidSignal... (as they are a good company).
They also just a few weeks stated the D12 was discontinued (which it has not been).

I have confirmed multiple times, that the D12 is still in production...
And the HR20 series is still in production as well.


----------



## gregftlaud

so any word on this solution?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gregftlaud said:


> so any word on this solution?


No... you will see plenty of announcements when the "solution" is made public.

And BTW... this is not an "overnight" solution... or something that is going to be announced "tomorrow".


----------



## Marvin

Fact is I must be in the minority then because I can get local CBS/ABC/CW/FOX/PBS just fine OTA with a simple antenna (with CBS/ABC/PBS in HD). Directv still doesn't offer locals here and its been rumored that the CBS station here is blocking them for some reason (which would also block FOX since they are run by the same people).
I will not pay Directv for locals that I can already get for free, ESPECIALLY if they won't even be all of the locals I can currently receive now via OTA. 

It (directv offing OTA support) doesn't seem to be a problem for me at the current moment since I have a OTA capable receiver though and by the time Im ready to upgrade the box Im sure they'll have something worked out that would allow me to keep OTA and recording OTA capabilities. Id probably pay extra for the option if it kept me from paying for locals so I could continue to record them. But I think that makes zero sense to Directv so they'll probably not do it that easily.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Marvin said:


> Fact is I must be in the minority then because I can get local CBS/ABC/CW/FOX/PBS just fine OTA with a simple antenna (with CBS/ABC/PBS in HD). Directv still doesn't offer locals here and its been rumored that the CBS station here is blocking them for some reason (which would also block FOX since they are run by the same people).
> I will not pay Directv for locals that I can already get for free, ESPECIALLY if they won't even be all of the locals I can currently receive now via OTA.
> 
> It (directv offing OTA support) doesn't seem to be a problem for me at the current moment since I have a OTA capable receiver though and by the time Im ready to upgrade the box Im sure they'll have something worked out that would allow me to keep OTA and recording OTA capabilities.


But do you feel that you should be able to record those "free" channels, on DirecTV supplied equipment?

I am still amazed that this is such a hot topic... when in fact... it has been the same thing since 2000 when the DTiVo was introduced...

If you didn't have your SD Locals via SAT, you could not record them either

(since no DirecTV receiver had an NTSC tuner... I don't think any one ever did... DVR or Standard Receiver)

But I don't recall any "outrage" that even comes close to the magnitude of this....


----------



## Marvin

I would say that the lack of local channel recording capability would make a DVR useless for a vast majority of the people who have them. I record a few shows on networks like USA and so on but for the most part my recording is of network shows, especially ones that conflict each others time slots. Im also not going to pay $6 for 3 channels (given CBS/FOX here are supposedly fighting directv) that I can recieve perfectly fine now for free. It would be a total different story if my OTA reception was spotty or I couldn't receive all the locals available, but for me thats not the case. 

And Im surprised more people aren't outraged that they pay $6 for locals that they could probably pick up just fine for free with a $5 antenna. People always complain about their bills being to high and yet some people could save that money and dont cause they dont want to have to deal with "outdated" technology in the form of rabbit ear antennas. I know there are plenty of people who probably cant get decent OTA but Im sure there must be some who can who can and don't use it.


----------



## msmith

The Sony HD200/300 had an NTSC tuner. It wasn't a DVR, though.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

msmith said:


> The Sony HD200/300 had an NTSC tuner. It wasn't a DVR, though.


Well... I stand corrected... there was at least 1 receiver that hand an NTSC tuner.. (Then again... are you sure it was NTSC? ... ANALOG stations... ATSC is the tuner for the digital).


----------



## ebr

Marvin said:


> I would say that the lack of local channel recording capability would make a DVR useless for a vast majority of the people who have them. I record a few shows on networks like USA and so on but for the most part my recording is of network shows, especially ones that conflict each others time slots. Im also not going to pay $6 for 3 channels (given CBS/FOX here are supposedly fighting directv) that I can recieve perfectly fine now for free. It would be a total different story if my OTA reception was spotty or I couldn't receive all the locals available, but for me thats not the case.
> 
> And Im surprised more people aren't outraged that they pay $6 for locals that they could probably pick up just fine for free with a $5 antenna. People always complain about their bills being to high and yet some people could save that money and dont cause they dont want to have to deal with "outdated" technology in the form of rabbit ear antennas. I know there are plenty of people who probably cant get decent OTA but Im sure there must be some who can who can and don't use it.


Again - there are two issues here getting lumped together. You can receive those channels for "free" sure, but you can't record them for free. Nor should you expect to be able to.

You could always get a Tivo. And, after shelling out $$ for the box you can pay them up to $17/mo for the ability to record your "free" channels.


----------



## tooloud10

ebr said:


> Again - there are two issues here getting lumped together. You can receive those channels for "free" sure, but you can't record them for free. Nor should you expect to be able to.
> 
> You could always get a Tivo. And, after shelling out $$ for the box you can pay them up to $17/mo for the ability to record your "free" channels.


There's a big difference between "*voluntarily* purchasing a Tivo box" and "all of a sudden D* is charging me a monthly fee for something that doesn't really cost them anything." IOW, there's an ENTIRELY different feeling of being taken advantage of between the two.

Tivo is like an incredibly attractive hooker--people understand what they're getting in to and what they're paying for--while D* and HR20 is like an average-looking wife that just decides to start charging her husband for the same action he's been getting for free for years.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tooloud10 said:


> There's a big difference between "*voluntarily* purchasing a Tivo box" and "all of a sudden D* is charging me a monthly fee for something that doesn't really cost them anything." IOW, there's an ENTIRELY different feeling of being taken advantage of between the two.
> 
> Tivo is like an incredibly attractive hooker--people understand what they're getting in to and what they're paying for--while D* and HR20 is like an average-looking wife that just decides to start charging her husband for the same action he's been getting for free for years.


"All of a sudden" ?

With your analogy.... wow... I could have so many comments to that, as not only do I think it is not correct... but if you really think that is the case...

You may want to re-consider DirecTV as your carrier.

And again... where was this outcry from all the people that had to "pay" for their SD-LiL's for hte last 8 years to record them (or even watch them).

For the modest few dollars a month that your fee(and yes, you can request to have your SAT based LiL's deactivated) It is worth it to a extremely large customer base...


----------



## ebr

tooloud10 said:


> There's a big difference between "*voluntarily* purchasing a Tivo box" and "all of a sudden D* is charging me a monthly fee for something that doesn't really cost them anything." IOW, there's an ENTIRELY different feeling of being taken advantage of between the two.
> 
> Tivo is like an incredibly attractive hooker--people understand what they're getting in to and what they're paying for--while D* and HR20 is like an average-looking wife that just decides to start charging her husband for the same action he's been getting for free for years.


The only difference is in your perception. Mostly the perception you have that this service "doesn't really cost [D*] anything". Just because they didn't charge you for it explicitly in the past doesn't mean it doesn't cost anything. Nor should it mean that you may not have to pay for it in the future.

But, as I've said in this thread before perception is powerful. And the mis-conceptions of most even more so.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ebr said:


> The only difference is in your perception. Mostly the perception you have that this service "doesn't really cost [D*] anything". Just because they didn't charge you for it explicitly in the past doesn't mean it doesn't cost anything. Nor should it mean that you may not have to pay for it in the future.
> 
> But, as I've said in this thread before perception is powerful. And the mis-conceptions of most even more so.


FYI... as pointed out by Ken S many posts pack...

There are "royalties" associated with ATSC... take a look back at his post for more details on what he found.


----------



## Marvin

ebr said:


> Again - there are two issues here getting lumped together. You can receive those channels for "free" sure, but you can't record them for free. Nor should you expect to be able to.
> 
> You could always get a Tivo. And, after shelling out $$ for the box you can pay them up to $17/mo for the ability to record your "free" channels.


"you cant record them for free"

Well obviously you have to pay for the DVR service, but Im not having to pay $6 for locals in order to record them, so in my eyes it is free for me to record them OTA as it is now. Obviously thats flawed thinking but anyway.

And I'd buy a cheap PC Tuner card and software to record OTA programs before I'd pay $17 a month to record 5 channels via TIVO on top of paying for D*'s DVR service.


----------



## JohnF

MisterEd said:


> Just FYI, anyone who got an HR20/21 as a replacement for an *owned* HR10 through the protection plan - not as an upgrade - owns the HR20/21. "Owned replaced by owned. "Doris" says so ...... Also, (at least as of this time) mdu type customers own their advanced equipment regardless of if they purchased it at retail or got it from their system operator unless their system opertator has their own leasing plan as an option to buying the receiver. It's the mdu customers who need the OTA more then anyone because most mdu type properties aren't ka/ku ready at this time and they get their HD locals off a master antenna. D* is hurting the mdu type market with the 21 series.


You are correct that via the Protection Plan, owned equipment is replaced by owned equipment. I had 2 HR10-250s replaced this way. In one case, the screen came up showing the new unit as leased, and they needed to transfer me to another group to get it changed to owned. The second time it showed up as owned right away. The rep in that case asked me how much I originally spent and mentioned that at some point I might be asked to show the receipt to ensure the status remains owned.


----------



## tooloud10

Earl Bonovich said:


> "All of a sudden" ?


Yes, "all of a sudden", in the sense that it seems possible that they could start charging to record the OTA channels on the boxes.



Earl Bonovich said:


> With your analogy.... wow... I could have so many comments to that, as not only do I think it is not correct... but if you really think that is the case...
> 
> You may want to re-consider DirecTV as your carrier.


You know, it gets increasingly difficult to give a company $2k a year when they don't seem to care about what's right or what makes sense as compared to what you've been paying for all these years. Gawd, the nickel-and-diming is getting ridiculous already, with the DVR fee and the fee for plugging in a simple receiver, and the fee for local channels, and the fees for everything else.

I'm not sure what my limit is for how much I'll spend to watch television for a year, but I doubt it's much more than I'm already paying. I won't cancel D*, but I will start dropping the stuff I can to make my bill more reasonable if all this goes down like it's sounding.



Earl Bonovich said:


> And again... where was this outcry from all the people that had to "pay" for their SD-LiL's for hte last 8 years to record them (or even watch them).
> 
> For the modest few dollars a month that your fee(and yes, you can request to have your SAT based LiL's deactivated) It is worth it to a extremely large customer base...


I don't happen to be one of them. I don't even WANT the HD locals from D* when they're available. The OTA work as good...er, BETTER, than getting them from the satellite, but I have no doubt that D* will make this as difficult as possible in the future.


----------



## jep8821

Earl,

I havn't had time to read all of this thread. I have skimmed it though. I would be very upset if directv started to charge for the ability to record OTA. I had 5 HR10-250's. I didn't save the box, but I could have sworn that they had advertised OTA recording. I am one of the few that also has lifetime tivo service on my account. Directv swapped my HR10's for an HR20's under their protection plan. So, if any of my HR20's are swapped for an HR21's by the protection plan, I would think I should NOT have to pay any fee for OTA or for an accessory to make it handle OTA. The protection plan says that it would be replaced with a comparable reciever. (I would assume OTA would be a must for compariablity sake going back to the original HR10). If they started charging me for it, I would be very upset. By the way, All five HR20's are marked as owned because they were swapped out by the protection plan. (I did have to be transfered to the access card department after I activated each one). As a Side note, I do have one of the original HR10's setup for OTA only(HDMI port bad, using RGB instead) and I have access to both OTA tuners, just no guide data and only can pause it. I thought I read somewhere that if you did OTA only on it, you would have access to only one tuner???? Did that change with the 6.3 upgrade or was it always like that?

Thanks.

Jason


----------



## donshan

Earl Bonovich said:


> There is no "one" product that has everything.... so us geeks/techies/want to have it all... have historically (and will continue) to have to have multiple devices to have "it all"


+1. This also applies to multiple program sources beyond just D*. As much as we love all the new D* HD, we are still paying for our Charter extended basic cable service. On cable we get a Northwest regional news channel "Northwest Cable News" that does an outstanding job of regional issues (WA, OR, ID), weather and road conditons, politics, emergencies such as forest fires and earthquakes, and the latest rumblings of Mt. St. Helens volcano (yes it is still erupting!). I have written NWCN about why it is not possible for such regional news coverage to get D* and E* channel slots like the regional sports networks currently have to cover sports. Since NWCN is currently a cable exclusive news service they are losing viewers as HD expands. I got a nice reply from their manager that they are looking into a possible satellite coverage. But until that happens we just keep the cable sevice for NWCN, local on the 8s weather and a couple of other locals not on D*.

No one programming system "has it all" either so we have three programming sources plus DVD. So both our HR20 D* systems also have OTA local HD (five channels ) and the internal HDTV cable tuner connected to Charter *so we "have it all".*

Edit: I also know of two families that "almost" subscribed to D*. until I told them the would lose NWCN and Weather on the 8s coverage and not get the same local SD channels- all channels they did not want to lose. They did not feel they could afford both satellite and cable bills.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Well I guess then "all of a sudden" erases the last three years of the fact that you had to "pay" to record on the HR10-250.

Sorry about your $2k... ut the market is what it is... and you as a customer simply need to evaluate what you pay for what you want.

Unfourtently... no time soon are our bills going to go down... and in all likely hood... they are going to go up.

The Content providers want more (and even some Local Affiliates want payment from DirecTV to carry the same signal they pump out for free).

The equipment overall is not getting any cheaper.
The competition is getting bigger, thus advertising and the "cost" of retaining customers is going up...

Yes... it sucks.. .but that is what is.

Well...... glad you have such a positive outlook on the fact that DirecTV has support ATSC tuners for this long... and are going to make it that much difficult for you to use THEIR DVR system... to record a free signal.


----------



## tooloud10

Marvin said:


> "you cant record them for free"
> 
> Well obviously you have to pay for the DVR service, but Im not having to pay $6 for locals in order to record them, so in my eyes it is free for me to record them OTA as it is now. Obviously thats flawed thinking but anyway.
> 
> And I'd buy a cheap PC Tuner card and software to record OTA programs before I'd pay $17 a month to record 5 channels via TIVO on top of paying for D*'s DVR service.


Bingo. This is one of those situations in which D* should just acknowledge that HD locals have been a big PITA for what's probably their best group of customers, and that we all did each other a favor with the OTA solution already in place and there's no reason to change that for the people that have been willing to deal with it up until now.

Considering that almost nobody watches TV without local channels available, I'm thinking they should be a little more willing to work with existing subscribers than it appears they're going to be willing to do.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jep8821 said:


> Earl,
> 
> I havn't had time to read all of this thread. I have skimmed it though. I would be very upset if directv started to charge for the ability to record OTA. I had 5 HR10-250's. I didn't save the box, but I could have sworn that they had advertised OTA recording. I am one of the few that also has lifetime tivo service on my account. Directv swapped my HR10's for an HR20's under their protection plan. So, if any of my HR20's are swapped for an HR21's by the protection plan, I would think I should NOT have to pay any fee for OTA or for an accessory to make it handle OTA. The protection plan says that it would be replaced with a comparable reciever. (I would assume OTA would be a must for compariablity sake going back to the original HR10). If they started charging me for it, I would be very upset. By the way, All five HR20's are marked as owned because they were swapped out by the protection plan. (I did have to be transfered to the access card department after I activated each one). As a Side note, I do have one of the original HR10's setup for OTA only(HDMI port bad, using RGB instead) and I have access to both OTA tuners, just no guide data and only can pause it. I thought I read somewhere that if you did OTA only on it, you would have access to only one tuner???? Did that change with the 6.3 upgrade or was it always like that?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jason


Where is this all coming from... that they are going to charge for OTA?
Possible that they may charge for a piece of equipment to record it... but where is the thought/theory that they are going to charge you an increased fee to actually record "ota" vs recording the "sat" feed.

--------------
Right now... if you want bigger picture things... you should be pissed at the companies that developed ATSC technology and are demanding royalties for it... . that money for the royalties has to come from some where...

The HR10's probably did advertising recording OTA... but you still had to pay for the ability to RECORD on the box, and access the guide data... Glad that you had lifetime, but doesn't change the fact that you "paid" for the ability to record that free OTA signal.

As for what 6.3 did... I would have to suspect that they didn't do that... simply because of how DTiVos work on the virtual tuner model... and if you told the system during setup you had two tuners... I don't know how/if it would alter that.


----------



## tooloud10

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well...... glad you have such a positive outlook on the fact that DirecTV has support ATSC tuners for this long... and are going to make it that much difficult for you to use THEIR DVR system... to record a free signal.


I guess we're at a crossroads--you seem to think that I should be thanking D* for *letting* me put up my own antenna to get HD locals, while I think D* should be *thanking* me for putting up an antenna to get HD locals since THEY couldn't provide them.

They seem to be forgetting that cable--with HD locals--is available for a lot of us, and that providing me with a solution to receive HD locals in conjunction with D*'s service did THEM as big of a favor as it did for me, because if this solution didn't exist, a lot of their subscribers would be with providers that could provide the HD locals, like cable.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tooloud10 said:


> Bingo. This is one of those situations in which D* should just acknowledge that HD locals have been a big PITA for what's probably their best group of customers, and that we all did each other a favor with the OTA solution already in place and there's no reason to change that for the people that have been willing to deal with it up until now.
> 
> Considering that almost nobody watches TV without local channels available, I'm thinking they should be a little more willing to work with existing subscribers than it appears they're going to be willing to do.


Why is HD Locals a big PITA?

If it was for HD LiL in SAT... I would haven't CBS-HD like I do today.

Sadly... I think a lot of you are just oblivious to the fact that a LOT of customers (and I do mean a LOT of customers), just don't want the antenna... they want it all via the SAT connection.

History showed that when there was the MASSIVE DBS customer increase when the DBS Carriers started to carry locals via SAT, and people didn't need two sources...

And frankly... it has shown again to be true, as you can look at the upgrade pattern of HD equipment... to almost directly correspond to when HD Locals were added via SAT.

OTA is great and all... and serves a valuable size of the population... but it is not critical to everyone.....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tooloud10 said:


> I guess we're at a crossroads--you seem to think that I should be thanking D* for *letting* me put up my own antenna to get HD locals, while I think D* should be *thanking* me for putting up an antenna to get HD locals since THEY couldn't provide them.
> 
> They seem to be forgetting that cable--with HD locals--is available for a lot of us, and that providing me with a solution to receive HD locals in conjunction with D*'s service did THEM as big of a favor as it did for me, because if this solution didn't exist, a lot of their subscribers would be with providers that could provide the HD locals, like cable.


I don't think we are at a crossroads at all.

DirecTV provides the signal they can to you... and basically you are getting access to a DVR product, at $4.99 a month (service fee for DVR)... when other comparable options are out there for significantly more.

Switch to cable... DirecTV won't miss yah... seriously...

DirecTV knows that their competitors in some markets have HD available on their systems... and they are making it an option as fast as they can to get it on their systems via SAT.... as that is "their" system...

Where are the cable-co's that offer a DVR product that allows OTA access?... and not all Cable-Co's offer all HD/Digital network contents...

In some of those markets... some of you should be jumping up and down ticked off at your affiliates that are demanding payment for the "free signal"...


----------



## Tom Robertson

I haven't found a cable system yet that has ALL digital channels or an OTA solution. DIRECTV is my friend, they have it today and will have it tomorrow.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jep8821

Sorry Earl!!!

I guess I should read the thread instead of skimming it. I would be fine with Directv charging for the option to add OTA assuming that they make sure that they have a plan to handle people that have there reciever swapped through there protection plan.


----------



## bobnielsen

If Directv had never put ATSC tuners in HD boxes, this hullabaloo wouldn't have ever started.

I am awaiting delivery of a HDHomeRun module http://www.silicondust.com/. This will give me a dual-tuner networked ATSC tuner which will work with many different computers and recording software versions. I'm guessing that Directv's solution is going to be something along these lines (my predictions are sometimes correct, more often not).


----------



## mhayes70

In St. Louis our local CBS affliate made Charter Cable pull there HD signal and demanded they be paid for that. Do you think that Charter is going to asorb that price or pass it on to the consumer? I would say they are going to pass it on. I think it is a bunch of BS that these station are demanding Cable and Sat company to pay to rebroacast there signal when you can get it via OTA for free.

I have not seen any cable DVR or digital receiver that has an OTA hookup on it either. The only input on the back was for the cable.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bobnielsen said:


> If Directv had never put ATSC tuners in HD boxes, this hullabaloo wouldn't have ever started.
> 
> I am awaiting delivery of a HDHomeRun module http://www.silicondust.com/. This will give me a dual-tuner networked ATSC tuner which will work with many different computers and recording software versions. I'm guessing that Directv's solution is going to be something along these lines (my predictions are sometimes correct, more often not).


Well... Times have changed.

When DirecTV offered their first HD recievers... most HD content was from ATSC... so that was a natural inclusion.

Now...... the HD "market" has changed.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mhayes70 said:


> In St. Louis our local CBS affliate made Charter Cable pull there HD signal and demanded they be paid for that. Do you think that Charter is going to asorb that price or pass it on to the consumer? I would say they are going to pass it on. I think it is a bunch of BS that these station are demanding Cable and Sat company to pay to rebroacast there signal when you can get it via OTA for free.
> 
> I have not seen any cable DVR or digital receiver that has an OTA hookup on it either. The only input on the back was for the cable.


One day... I would like to see a convincing argument on WHY the carriers should PAY the affiliates to re-distribute THEIR signal to THEIR market.

I could understand if they were broadcasting it to the nation... or a larger DMA... or what ever....

I would think the affiliates would LOVE to have their signal (pentrate more of their market, with no cost increase on their side)


----------



## Tom Robertson

Since the affiliates get the bulk of their money from local advertising (and mostly on the local news shows), the larger the audience penetration, the more possible money. So, as Earl asks, why demand money, thereby lessening the likelihood of carriage?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## donshan

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well... I stand corrected... there was at least 1 receiver that hand an NTSC tuner.. (Then again... are you sure it was NTSC? ... ANALOG stations... ATSC is the tuner for the digital).


I still have an old Sony DirecTV Model SAT-HD 200 I bought and used in 2004. It did not have a DVR but did have other tuners including analog and cable. This is a quote from the specifications page 97 of the manual:


> Television System
> NTSC, Analog American Standard, 480i
> ATSC, Digital TV standard (1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i)
> DirecTV
> 
> Channel coverage:
> Digital TV- 1-69
> VHF- 2-13
> UHF-14-69
> CATV-1-125
> DirecTV- Variable


BTW: IIRC the OTA functions without the D* dish attached which is why I am hanging on to it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Thank you for the post... so there is at least one of out of the 100+ different receivers, that did have an NTSC tuner.


----------



## houskamp

Samsung SIR-TS360 had ATSC tuner too.. loved that reciever, one guide for everything.. great WAF..
Isn't this topic dead yet?


----------



## mhayes70

Earl Bonovich said:


> One day... I would like to see a convincing argument on WHY the carriers should PAY the affiliates to re-distribute THEIR signal to THEIR market.
> 
> I could understand if they were broadcasting it to the nation... or a larger DMA... or what ever....
> 
> I would think the affiliates would LOVE to have their signal (pentrate more of their market, with no cost increase on their side)


I don't understand it. I think it is just pure greed. Our CBS is owned by Belo and that is the main problem. My personal opion is that it just hurts them with the bad press. The only time I watch that channel is for some of there primetime shows and sports. That is it. I will not watch there news. I know of several other people that feel the same way about them. Luckly none of the other local stations have not followed suit.


----------



## Tom Robertson

houskamp said:


> Samsung SIR-TS360 had ATSC tuner too.. loved that reciever, one guide for everything.. great WAF..
> Isn't this topic dead yet?


No, but the horse it rode in on is so dead, I used glue from its hooves in kindergarten 40 years ago...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ggergm said:


> Earl, you're wrong so seldom this seems like piling on, but I'll risk it.
> 
> The Samsung SIR-TS360 had DirecTV, NTSC and ATSC tuners in it. No DVR.
> 
> I think their SIR-TS160 also had all three tuners but I can't remember for sure. I know this one did because I set all three of them up for a customer.
> 
> PDF - owner's manual Samsung SIR-TS360


Fair enough... there were a "few" non-dvr recievers that had NTSC support.
I know none of the DVRs ever support NTSC


----------



## donshan

Earl Bonovich said:


> One day... I would like to see a convincing argument on WHY the carriers should PAY the affiliates to re-distribute THEIR signal to THEIR market.
> 
> I could understand if they were broadcasting it to the nation... or a larger DMA... or what ever....
> 
> I would think the affiliates would LOVE to have their signal (pentrate more of their market, with no cost increase on their side)


In this small DMA(#126) the local stations have had serious budget and technical staffing problems with all aspects of the analog to digital conversion and they want the carriers to help pay these costs. The question is how to pay for digital equipment and the need to hire digital consultants and sub contractors to upgrade to digital and then to keep digital equipment working after it is installed ( audio out of sync for weeks!). Our stations were late getting their first digitial TV on the air, then years late with HD conversion upgrades , and now they are late getting their HD signals on local cable. Our local Fox affillate spent several hundred thousand dollars to get Fox HD on the air this past January, but their HD channel is not on Charter cable yet. Apparently Charter cable expects the Fox station to "deliver their HD signal to the cable head end", but the Fox station says Charter can have the HD signal, if Charter pays for the head end equipment. So far a stalemate with cable customers losing! Small local stations have capital budget maximums, and limits on how much banks will loan them based on their financial balance sheets.

Next comes D*. Getting our five OTA HD stations on D* still is "scheduled" for D11. If D* pays to send engineering contractors and equipment to do a "turnkey" job for the uplinks it will probably go well. If D* expects the local stations to arrange the engineering and pay for the local up-link we are in trouble with D* HD LIL on D11 on any fast track schedule.

My view is some reasonable cost sharing to get the HD signals on the air promptly is a win-win-win for the stations, carriers, and viewers, *but everyone wants somebody else to pay the bills! So I am keeping my OTA antenna and two HR20s!* I hope D* really has a "solution".


----------



## Incog-Neato

C'mon Earle ... quite obvioulsy I'm referring to NEW customers not existing ones. When a *new *mdu customer moves into their unit they have to call their system operator for installation & equipment. The only thing they can get is what is in the distribution channel. You expect a new mdu customer to go out looking for used HR10's or new HR20's that aren't available thru distribution? It's NEW customers not existing ones that are the issue. Obviously you don't have any idea about the size of the mdu market or how it works. BTW, MFH2 (and 3) is rolling out VERY quickly now. The only issue holding it up is who is going to pay for the property upgrades, the sysop, the property or D* (or a combination of all 3). Equipment is not an issue. There is plenty of it available.

Earle, even you can't know 100% about everything. Maybe most things, but not all.



Earl Bonovich said:


> If they where not wired for MPEG-4... why would they be consdering an HR20 series box? I would suspect... most of them will continue with what ever hardware they had today, as what woudl be the driving force to upgrade today?
> 
> I never stated that they rely on OTA for their recording.... IMHO... I think the MDU market for DirecTV extremely small, and that the percentages of those that are in MDU's that were HD enabled, so people had HD equipment, is even smaller then that...
> 
> And those that are, not going to "gain" anything why go to an HR series box... there is a viable market out there for older equipment... that they will be able to use to their fullest.
> 
> So I doubt it is making any type of "damage" to the MDU market and more so that it is damaging "other" markets.
> 
> And yes... I am very much aware of how the MFH2 and MFH3 will work..


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MisterEd said:


> C'mon Earle ... quite obvioulsy I'm referring to NEW customers not existing ones. When a *new *mdu customer moves into their unit they have to call their system operator for installation & equipment. The only thing they can get is what is in the distribution channel. You expect a new mdu customer to go out looking for used HR10's or new HR20's that aren't available thru distribution? It's NEW customers not existing ones that are the issue. Obviously you don't have any idea about the size of the mdu market or how it works. BTW, MFH2 (and 3) is rolling out VERY quickly now. The only issue holding it up is who is going to pay for the property upgrades, the sysop, the property or D* (or a combination of all 3). Equipment is not an issue. There is plenty of it available.
> 
> Earle, even you can't know 100% about everything. Maybe most things, but not all.


I fully know I don't know know 100% about everthing... I personally think you are completely over exagerating the "impact" this has in the MDU structures...

But hey... everyone has their own opinions on things

And yes... I have been following the MFH2 and MFH3....
And yes... I have a pretty good understanding on the size of the MDU market and the technology behind it....

(And if you are curious... yes, it was me who suggested the MDU forum here on our forum... specifically because I understand the impact of the MDU market and what it is going to be in 2008 and future installs).


----------



## tooloud10

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't think we are at a crossroads at all.
> 
> DirecTV provides the signal they can to you... and basically you are getting access to a DVR product, at $4.99 a month (service fee for DVR)... when other comparable options are out there for significantly more.


IOW, when D* had no other option but to include ATSC tuners (to attract customers), they gladly provided them, but now that they can send an inferior product (no subchannels) down the satellite, it's time for all of us to pay.

Let's be clear: I can probably handle a small one-time charge to get some hardware to receive an ATSC signal for, say, an HR21. It's the thought that someone might try to get another monthly fee out of me for this that gets me charged up.

If I'm completely off-track, please let me know. I'd like nothing more than to be assured that no one's looking for another endless stream of money for something that costs them nothing.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Switch to cable... DirecTV won't miss yah... seriously...


You know, it's this "We only have to be slightly better than the other providers" that annoys subscribers. People like to feel important, even if they're not, so at the very least D* could pretend to agree.

In any case, if they won't miss anybody that leaves, why'd they bother to rate all of their customers with little hearts (five for me)? Also, what's the point of the Retention department?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tooloud10 said:


> IOW, when D* had no other option but to include ATSC tuners (to attract customers), they gladly provided them, but now that they can send an inferior product (no subchannels) down the satellite, it's time for all of us to pay.
> 
> Let's be clear: I can probably handle a small one-time charge to get some hardware to receive an ATSC signal for, say, an HR21. It's the thought that someone might try to get another monthly fee out of me for this that gets me charged up.
> 
> If I'm completely off-track, please let me know. I'd like nothing more than to be assured that no one's looking for another endless stream of money for something that costs them nothing.
> 
> You know, it's this "We only have to be slightly better than the other providers" that annoys subscribers. People like to feel important, even if they're not, so at the very least D* could pretend to agree.
> 
> In any case, if they won't miss anybody that leaves, why'd they bother to rate all of their customers with little hearts (five for me)? Also, what's the point of the Retention department?


Again... where is this "assumption" that you are going to have to pay some service charge for OTA access.... nothing has been stated about their future solution.

If you don't like the HR21... then don't get the HR21... don't go that path.
If you want to wait... to see what the OTA solution is... then wait.

As for the last part:
The modest cost to try and retain some customers... that is why their is a retention department....

Not that they won't try to retain you... but why should they bend over backwards to try to please everyone.... there is a point that it reaches the point of diminishing returns....


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Me thinks it is too sensitive on all sides...
> 
> Those that think OTA is the end-all-be all are just as senstive as well.
> Those that think DirecTV is out to "screw them all"... are just as senstive as well.


Truthfully, I don't fall in either camp, some opinions here notwithstanding. I don't think OTA is the end-all-be-all, but I do think it is important for those who want it or need it. I also don't think D* is out to screw people, though I do believe they wouldn't be very wise to totally and unilaterally abandon OTA, at least not now. I'm not saying they are; rather, that IF they did that, it wouldn't be very wise at this time.


----------



## bonscott87

donshan said:


> Next comes D*. Getting our five OTA HD stations on D* still is "scheduled" for D11. If D* pays to send engineering contractors and equipment to do a "turnkey" job for the uplinks it will probably go well. If D* expects the local stations to arrange the engineering and pay for the local up-link we are in trouble with D* HD LIL on D11 on any fast track schedule.
> 
> My view is some reasonable cost sharing to get the HD signals on the air promptly is a win-win-win for the stations, carriers, and viewers, *but everyone wants somebody else to pay the bills! So I am keeping my OTA antenna and two HR20s!* I hope D* really has a "solution".


Shouldn't be an issue. The vast majority of the HD locals on D* are captured via OTA antenna just like you or I would. So your local stations don't need to do much of anything to deliver the signal to D* other then keep doing what they are doing.

In our market D* simply has a small receive facility and an OTA antenna and captures all the HD locals and then uplinks them to D* main control center. Local stations don't do much of anything other then the work with D* on the encoders and such if needed. For example our local CBS was really bad on D* when it was first uplinked. They eventually worked with D* on an upgrade to the MPEG4 encoders at the local receive facility which eliminated the problem.


----------



## CT_Wiebe

Earl Bonovich said:


> Fair enough... there were a "few" non-dvr recievers that had NTSC support.
> I know none of the DVRs ever support NTSC


Gotcha (sort of)! I have a DVR (actually a DVD Recorder w/HDD), a Panasonic DMR-EH75V which has a NTSC tuner (and D* support for SD recording) only. It does not have an ASTC tuner. I also have a Hauppauge WinTV PVR-250 card in my PC which allows me to record SD video to my PC HDDs (also includes a NTSC tuner).

I know that I'm in a somewhat unique situation. However, I have access to 40+ digital (ASTC) OTA stations at my location. To access all of them, I do need to use my rotor with my rooftop OTA (a Channel Master 4228 on a 20' mast on my roof - I'm 50 miles from the main network towers).

I was also fortunate that one of the 2 H20-700 units that the local CC had in stock actually worked. I decided to "buy" it from CC, since I could not get a guarantee that ordering it through D* would get me a HR20 instead of a HR21 (for my convenience).

The fact that the HR20 includes the OTA input is really a matter of integration convenience, which I consider a "necessity". I have the capability to install a system to record OTA signals, if I really need to. The networked HDHomeRun, with dual ASTC tuners, by SiliconDust seems to be the best option for me (even though it does add an extra layer of interconnect hassles).

I do pay D* for my locals, even though I can get them for "free" (having paid for my antenna). What that "buys" me is the capability of getting FOX HD programs (aka football), since they don't seem to be able to get their Digital Broadcast Antenna working (it's co-located with ABC & CBS network towers, who's signals come though great).

I do agreee that each user has their own set of "druthers", and that D* has decided that to cut costs, they have chosen to provide a minimum configuration for their products - based on the fact that they will "soon" have major network coverage (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC & a major PBS station) available nationwide. The only real drawback with this decision is when is "soon" going to become "nationwide".

For my case and for others using Monitors (no tuners) for their TV viewing, they "should" provide hardware with ASTC tuner(s). This should be with or without recording capability = H20/HR20 or equivalent, for those of us that want (or think they need) the capability, and this should be without an additional monthly usage fee.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Okay Okay... you gotme "on the side"


----------



## bhelton71

Lord Vader said:


> Truthfully, I don't fall in either camp, some opinions here notwithstanding. I don't think OTA is the end-all-be-all, but I do think it is important for those who want it or need it. I also don't think D* is out to screw people, though I do believe they wouldn't be very wise to totally and unilaterally abandon OTA, at least not now. I'm not saying they are; rather, that IF they did that, it wouldn't be very wise at this time.


I am not sure I understand why everyone is so mad - the thread is titled '..OTA We Will Have a Solution' so I assume they are working/ have worked on something. We went without OTA for a while on the 20 and no one died as a result ( ok thats totally unsubstantied - I don't think anyone died as a result ). And I am guessing with a chip that can handle 5 data transports coming in - the HR21 is more than up to the task of taking data from wherever. It may not be wired for five inputs - but it has the pedigree.

And I do use OTA for CBS, CW, and an occassional PBS show. CBS is really the big hitter for football and my wifes CSI of the day, and my wife likes Supernatural on CW. We get NBC, FOX, ABC off satellite. I prefer them because well lets face it they're skinny and beautiful. And my wife actually thinks NBC looks better off satellite (it does clean the picture somewhat I have to admit) - she says the color looks better.

So yes - I would like, desire, covet, crave, pine for, wish for or yearn for OTA - just not so worked up on whether the tuner is in the box or not. To me personally - my ideal situation would be off board tuner connected by ethernet so you only need one device for multiple receivers. Then when (or if) the remaining locals get with the program - return the tuner. Or if you left Directv - it just goes back with the dvr for the next person.

Anyway sounds like Tom will tell us tomorrow :lol: :lol:

Or perhaps - soon is better.


----------



## billsharpe

One more reason I'm glad I have an OTA connection:

HD locals in LA disappeared completely last Saturday morning. They came back on in a few hours but were still cutting out during the afternoon football games.

No real problem yet, but I sure hope my HR20 keeps on truckin' :dance07: 

Bill


----------



## gregftlaud

so what happens if/when we need a replacement for a defective hr20. do we specifically tell the csr at dtv that we need ota capabilities and they will know to send us the hr20 or it is the luck of the draw and if u get the hr21 then u have to play the send it back game?


----------



## lwilli201

I wonder if the select few are testing an OTA device for the H21/HR21 like the secret testing of the HR21.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Gregftlaud, I think you have the right idea. There have been a few people who've already succeeded with that approach. And there might be some people who have to return an HR21 until the solution is out.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Lord Vader

Secrets, conspiracies, plots...what's next? DISH claiming they've got 75 HD channels?


----------



## lwilli201

Lord Vader said:


> Secrets, conspiracies, plots...what's next? DISH claiming they've got 75 HD channels?


Could be. :lol:


----------



## Ed Campbell

My soap opera experience w/Mastec trying to convince me to accept HR21's was resolved, today. They got a shipment of HR21's - and sent an installer up here, this evening, to get mine in right away.

Cranky starting up and activating. Had one bad BBC and we had to use the old stunt of activating with only component hooked up and connecting HDMI after activating.


----------



## flipptyfloppity

Ed Campbell said:


> My soap opera experience w/Mastec trying to convince me to accept HR21's was resolved, today. They got a shipment of HR21's - and sent an installer up here, this evening, to get mine in right away.
> 
> Cranky starting up and activating. Had one bad BBC and we had to use the old stunt of activating with only component hooked up and connecting HDMI after activating.


Was that 2nd use of "HR21's" in your post supposed to be "HR20's"?


----------



## narcolept

flipptyfloppity said:


> Was that 2nd use of "HR21's" in your post supposed to be "HR20's"?


Pretty sure it was, he posted in the installation forum that he received an HR20-100.


----------



## donshan

bonscott87 said:


> Shouldn't be an issue. The vast majority of the HD locals on D* are captured via OTA antenna just like you or I would. So your local stations don't need to do much of anything to deliver the signal to D* other then keep doing what they are doing.
> 
> In our market D* simply has a small receive facility and an OTA antenna and captures all the HD locals and then uplinks them to D* main control center. Local stations don't do much of anything other then the work with D* on the encoders and such if needed. For example our local CBS was really bad on D* when it was first uplinked. They eventually worked with D* on an upgrade to the MPEG4 encoders at the local receive facility which eliminated the problem.


Thanks for the reply. Our DMA is complicated by geographical size and two population centers, so that in order to get analog OTA coverage, each network affiliate must operate two studio/transmitters with separate call signs--one in the north end of the DMA and ours in the South end. Each station has separate local news and local ads. The current D* SD uplink facility is in the north end of the DMA and our local stations send their SD signal the 80+ miles by microwave link for current D* SD locals. Both D* and E* now provide a mix of SD stations from both DMA ends to cover all the networks and PBS. Those using OTA antennas or cable get all four of their local news channels, but D* does not provide all of them.

Our south end of the DMA has grown much faster and now has 2/3 of the population, so our stations were the first to get HD upgrades. In order for D* to acquire these HD signals they will either have to build a new uplink center here, or someone will have to build a new HD bandwidth microwave link to the North end of the DMA to the existing D* uplink center. Also I understand D* has built six new Ka band uplink centers around the country for the final MPEG-4 LIL uplinks to D10/D11 connected to a ground based fiber-optic network to collect and send the local HD signals to these Ka band uplink antennas. I am not sure the existing SD uplink center will be used for HD since it will be needed to maintain the current analog SD channels on D* until Feb.. 2009 cutoff.

Our D11 HD LIL is scheduled for 2008. but there has been no information released about how this to be engineered and who will pay for it. It is complicated but I doubt D* would provide 8 to 10 HD LIL channels on D11 for full station coverage in this small DMA, but will again compromise with a mix of HD stations from the two ends just like they did for the SD LIL. *Thus an OTA antenna will still be needed to get all five of our local HD stations even after D11 is operational. *


----------



## Richi

My two pennies worth....SCAN OTA..... will definately make the HR20 into the finest reciever and recorder and what ever more bells and wistles they decide to add. It will have NO OTHER RIVAL. Tivo who?????


----------



## Richi

I may have missed something... D* will have a OTA solution soon....SOLUTION TO WHAT PROBLEM????? Is it an HR20 vs HR21 and who will reign supreme? To OTA or not to OTA? To who will have to pay more or less??


----------



## Tom Robertson

Some users who need/want OTA are getting H21/HR21 receivers and concerned that DIRECTV is going away from the ability to record OTA either soon or in the future.

DIRECTV has confirmed to Earl and myself that OTA will continue to be supported and that a solution is forthcoming. For now, the solution is the H20/HR20.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## psweig

houskamp said:


> Samsung SIR-TS360 had ATSC tuner too.. loved that reciever, one guide for everything.. great WAF..
> Isn't this topic dead yet?


I still have mine and I am saving it because the ATSC tuners on my HR20 are so unreliable, I might just plug it back in.


----------



## BkwSoft

houskamp said:


> Samsung SIR-TS360 had ATSC tuner too.. loved that reciever, one guide for everything.. great WAF..
> Isn't this topic dead yet?


Not only did it have an ATSC tuner, but also NTSC. It would also do channel scans and map the ATSC channels via the PSIP data.


----------



## dreadlk

Directv made such a huge mistake taking out the OTA. Whoever made that choice is a young rookie. 
The people who visit forums like this are considered to be the TV know it all's in their own personal circles and work circles, when people like that say that the New HR21 is not as good as the old HR20 because it's missing OTA the story passes on like wildfire and then a few weeks later you get the quote I heard today.

Just today a guy at work asks me about DirectvHD and if I like it etc etc. Then he says "I hear the new Black one's suck and I should get a Silver one" LOL I was laughing to myself, how ironic that im on a forum just yesterday discussing this and Bam someone who knows squat comes up with that statement. Just shows you how a missing OTA tuner can pass down person to person till it becomes "The Black one's suck"


----------



## Ken S

gio12 said:


> No I KNOW your are clueless. They actually hold up VERY well.
> 
> Again is show your pretty ignorant. Yes, City Miami is no as big as Chiago, but when you inlcude Greater Miami/Dade County you are talking about 2 million people. Add Broward as well call SFLA it's getting pretty large.
> 
> Miami IS a major city and TV market. top 20.
> 
> 
> 
> Miami-Dade and Dade are about 5,000,000 people and Palm Beach County is another million.
Click to expand...


----------



## lman

dreadlk said:


> Directv made such a huge mistake taking out the OTA. Whoever made that choice is a young rookie.
> The people who visit forums like this are considered to be the TV know it all's in their own personal circles and work circles, when people like that say that the New HR21 is not as good as the old HR20 because it's missing OTA the story passes on like wildfire and then a few weeks later you get the quote I heard today.
> 
> Just today a guy at work asks me about DirectvHD and if I like it etc etc. Then he says "I hear the new Black one's suck and I should get a Silver one" LOL I was laughing to myself, how ironic that im on a forum just yesterday discussing this and Bam someone who knows squat comes up with that statement. Just shows you how a missing OTA tuner can pass down person to person till it becomes "The Black one's suck"


It must have been the same guy that removed DLB.


----------



## Splendor

lman said:


> It must have been the same guy that removed DLB.


No DLB and now no OTA...the next one will probably only have one sat tuner. :lol:


----------



## ebr

dreadlk said:


> Directv made such a huge mistake taking out the OTA. Whoever made that choice is a young rookie.
> The people who visit forums like this are considered to be the TV know it all's in their own personal circles and work circles, when people like that say that the New HR21 is not as good as the old HR20 because it's missing OTA the story passes on like wildfire and then a few weeks later you get the quote I heard today.
> 
> Just today a guy at work asks me about DirectvHD and if I like it etc etc. Then he says "I hear the new Black one's suck and I should get a Silver one" LOL I was laughing to myself, how ironic that im on a forum just yesterday discussing this and Bam someone who knows squat comes up with that statement. Just shows you how a missing OTA tuner can pass down person to person till it becomes "The Black one's suck"


Well, considering that this thread is supposed to be about the fact that D* DOES plan to continue to support OTA - I'm not really sure what the "mistake" was. All they did is remove it as a default in their future mainstream product line. Which, I'm pretty sure will turn out to save them money. That is rarely a mistake in the business world.

Amongst those out here, OTA is a huge deal but my Mom couldn't even spell OTA much less care about it. And, even though we seem awfully important in this forum - I'm pretty sure there are a lot more of my Mom than us in D*'s world.

There are 55,000 of us registered on this forum (which also covers Dish). How many millions of subscribers does D* have...?


----------



## GP245

ebr said:


> Well, considering that this thread is supposed to be about the fact that D* DOES plan to continue to support OTA - I'm not really sure what the "mistake" was. All they did is remove it as a default in their future mainstream product line. Which, I'm pretty sure will turn out to save them money. That is rarely a mistake in the business world.
> 
> Amongst those out here, OTA is a huge deal but my Mom couldn't even spell OTA much less care about it. And, even though we seem awfully important in this forum - I'm pretty sure there are a lot more of my Mom than us in D*'s world.
> 
> There are 55,000 of us registered on this forum (which also covers Dish). How many millions of subscribers does D* have...?


16!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

GP245 said:


> 16!


16.5 actually... and we will find out tomorrow, what the latest subscriber count is.


----------



## RAD

dreadlk said:


> Directv made such a huge mistake taking out the OTA.


IMHO, the only hugh mistake that D* made was to not have a plan in place to make sure customers that needed a STB with ATSC tuner(s) could get one, at extra charge or whatever.


----------



## Splendor

RAD said:


> IMHO, the only hugh mistake that D* made was to not have a plan in place to make sure customers that needed a STB with ATSC tuner(s) could get one, at extra charge or whatever.


Yes! That is _THE_ issue. It's D*'s short-sightedness [sic] on full display.


----------



## Lord Vader

Ken S said:


> gio12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Miami-Dade and Dade are about 5,000,000 people and Palm Beach County is another million.
> 
> 
> 
> And metro Chicago has 9 million, but I digress.
Click to expand...


----------



## jwd45244

How long are we going to beat this dead horse?


----------



## Doug Brott

Splendor said:


> Yes! That is _THE_ issue. It's D*'s short-sightedness [sic] on full display.


Perhaps, but not necessarily. It could be that demand outstripped supply necessitating the HR21 going out earlier than anticipated. It may be that DIRECTV should have predicted this and been more prepared, but sometimes it's hard to stop a snowball that's rolling down the mountain.

Better communication might be helpful, but in the grand scheme of things it looks like the word as we know is not ending.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

We all really should not be surprised. D* released the HR20 too early with horrible software and NO functional OTA tuners ( I know, I got one the second week it was out).

Its a great DVR now, but the cycle starts over with a HR21 lacking forward thinking.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Richi said:


> I may have missed something... D* will have a OTA solution soon....SOLUTION TO WHAT PROBLEM????? Is it an HR20 vs HR21 and who will reign supreme? To OTA or not to OTA? To who will have to pay more or less??


Is the OTA the source of the hardware issues (tuner deaths) that have plagued the HR20? Is the HR21 design cleaner and therefore more robust?


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Dr. Booda said:


> Is the OTA the source of the hardware issues (tuner deaths) that have plagued the HR20? Is the HR21 design cleaner and therefore more robust?


The 3 HR20's that died on me in the beginning were SAT tuners not OTA.


----------



## Dr. Booda

elwaylite said:


> The 3 HR20's that died on me in the beginning were SAT tuners not OTA.


Mine as well, but I was wondering if the presence of the OTA could cause a hardware conflict that would mess up the SAT tuners.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Dr. Booda said:


> Mine as well, but I was wondering if the presence of the OTA could cause a hardware conflict that would mess up the SAT tuners.


Ah, that I have no idea. Someone else might though.


----------



## Doug Brott

Dr. Booda said:


> Is the HR21 design cleaner and therefore more robust?


As far as I can tell, the jury is still out on that one .. One thing 2nd generation equipment has over the first, though, is the ability to correct issues that occurred the first time around.


----------



## sbl

The HR21 design is certainly cleaner - a look inside the box will tell you that. Much more "integrated". Whether that means "more robust" is undetermined. It certainly is less expensive to build.


----------



## gio12

Ken S said:


> gio12 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Miami-Dade and Dade are about 5,000,000 people and Palm Beach County is another million.
> 
> 
> 
> Well the 2006 census was off or the site was wrong. I thought it was close to that. That's not counting all the illegal aliens here as well.
Click to expand...


----------



## gio12

Lord Vader said:



> Ken S said:
> 
> 
> 
> And metro Chicago has 9 million, but I digress.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a rats arse about Chicago! My point was a major metro area like SFLA and more new developments than I a human can imagine don't rely or even use OTA here even though it's very accessible and easy to get!
> 
> Even the ghetto and hoods here have cable and not OTA. Hell most have a D* dish over cable now!
> I made my point!
Click to expand...


----------



## Doug Brott

OK .. :backtotop


----------



## Lord Vader

gio12 said:


> I don't give a rats arse about Chicago!


And I don't give a 0-8 Dolphins' arse about an area so confused they had to have two names for the county in which it resides.



> Even the ghetto and hoods here have cable and not OTA. Hell most have a D* dish over cable now!


Twisted Reynold's Wrap aluminum foil and bent coat hangers do not an OTA make.


----------



## dreadlk

:lol: :lol:



lman said:


> It must have been the same guy that removed DLB.


----------



## Ken S

Here's my guess as to the solution. By 2008 DirecTV believes they will have a solid stock of used receivers (from churn turn-ins). So, should you get a non-ota box they'll replace it with a unit with OTA that is in stock.
I'm sure they'll keep the cabapility to make new receivers with OTA, but that won't be active unless absolutely necessary.

They're driving the price of the HR series down to $250 and that's gotta mean no OTA tuners/licensing fees.


----------



## dreadlk

You really are missing the point. Let me assume that since you are on this forum you must be into HT and a techy. If that is the case how many family members, friends and Co-workers have asked you for advice on TV's and other related components?

My point is that the 50,000+ members of this forum can easily influence 500,000 people and those 500,000 can pass on that advice to millions. So it's no surprise that all those posts from people wanting an HR20 and not wanting an HR21 can easily be handed down and re-worded into "HR20 good HR21 sucks"



ebr said:


> Well, considering that this thread is supposed to be about the fact that D* DOES plan to continue to support OTA - I'm not really sure what the "mistake" was. All they did is remove it as a default in their future mainstream product line. Which, I'm pretty sure will turn out to save them money. That is rarely a mistake in the business world.
> 
> Amongst those out here, OTA is a huge deal but my Mom couldn't even spell OTA much less care about it. And, even though we seem awfully important in this forum - I'm pretty sure there are a lot more of my Mom than us in D*'s world.
> 
> There are 55,000 of us registered on this forum (which also covers Dish). How many millions of subscribers does D* have...?


----------



## dcmidnight

I wont take a DVR without OTA for a couple of reasons. Even though I am at 90+ on all my sat readings, we still have frequent outages in the rain or snow. With my rooftop antenna (so thankfully left by the previous owner) I can easily pull in all the local networks, FOX, PBS and others. I also pick up the 3 or 4 subchannels that I would lose by not having OTA. The weather subchannels are great as two of them are usually showing forecasts while one is a dedicated radar loop.


----------



## hasan

dcmidnight said:


> I wont take a DVR without OTA for a couple of reasons. Even though I am at 90+ on all my sat readings, we still have frequent outages in the rain or snow. With my rooftop antenna (so thankfully left by the previous owner) I can easily pull in all the local networks, FOX, PBS and others. I also pick up the 3 or 4 subchannels that I would lose by not having OTA. The weather subchannels are great as two of them are usually showing forecasts while one is a dedicated radar loop.


The case for OTA (in specific circumstances) has been made over and over and over. You have made it again. Only people who don't want to "get it", continue to tell the OTA people that they don't really need it and shouldn't be disturbed by current trends.

I am encouraged by "there will be a solution". I'll accept that at face value from D*.

The rest of the pro/con OTA argument has become tiresome, to say the least.


----------



## ebr

hasan said:


> The case for OTA (in specific circumstances) has been made over and over and over. You have made it again. Only people who don't want to "get it", continue to tell the OTA people that they don't really need it and shouldn't be disturbed by current trends.
> 
> I am encouraged by "there will be a solution". I'll accept that at face value from D*.
> 
> The rest of the pro/con OTA argument has become tiresome, to say the least.


I certainly haven't tried to tell anyone else that they do or don't need OTA. No one can do that - only the individual in question can know that.

I simply have been trying to point out that it probably makes excellent business sense for D* to eliminate OTA tuners/support from their default offering (that's got to save them some coin) and that its a bit silly for people to get all indignant and up in arms about this fact. As if their satellite TV provider somehow _owes_ them free access to recording capability of the OTA signal.

However, I also think that it makes excellent consumer sense for most people to accept whatever D*s OTA solution is (now and in the future). Because, as far as I can see, they are the best value in HD DVRs out there - by far - and not much of the competition provides any OTA capability for anything like the cost of D*.


----------



## psweig

hasan said:


> The case for OTA (in specific circumstances) has been made over and over and over. You have made it again. Only people who don't want to "get it", continue to tell the OTA people that they don't really need it and shouldn't be disturbed by current trends.
> 
> I am encouraged by "there will be a solution". I'll accept that at face value from D*.
> 
> The rest of the pro/con OTA argument has become tiresome, to say the least.


+1


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So without having to read 450+ posts, what exactly is D* solution to this OTA issue?

Thanks


----------



## dbmaven

theratpatrol said:


> So without having to read 450+ posts, what exactly is D* solution to this OTA issue?
> 
> Thanks


The future solution for the HR21s has not been determined - only that they say they will have one.


----------



## Ken S

theratpatrol said:


> So without having to read 450+ posts, what exactly is D* solution to this OTA issue?
> 
> Thanks


It hasn't been announced, but read my post 464 in this thread. If you listen to their latest conference call they talk extensively about re-using receivers.


----------



## hasan

ebr said:


> I certainly haven't tried to tell anyone else that they do or don't need OTA. No one can do that - only the individual in question can know that.
> 
> I simply have been trying to point out that it probably makes excellent business sense for D* to eliminate OTA tuners/support from their default offering (that's got to save them some coin) and that its a bit silly for people to get all indignant and up in arms about this fact. As if their satellite TV provider somehow _owes_ them free access to recording capability of the OTA signal.
> 
> However, I also think that it makes excellent consumer sense for most people to accept whatever D*s OTA solution is (now and in the future). Because, as far as I can see, they are the best value in HD DVRs out there - by far - and not much of the competition provides any OTA capability for anything like the cost of D*.


Yes, I agree about the business end. As far as people getting indignant, they have reason to feel abandoned...and been sold on the come, but that discussion has also been beaten to death, and I'm equally tired of it, as well.

The HD-DVRs are very good and getting better, to be sure. I hope they make good on their "we will have a solution" claim.


----------



## donshan

dreadlk said:


> You really are missing the point. Let me assume that since you are on this forum you must be into HT and a techy. If that is the case how many family members, friends and Co-workers have asked you for advice on TV's and other related components?
> 
> My point is that the 50,000+ members of this forum can easily influence 500,000 people and those 500,000 can pass on that advice to millions. So it's no surprise that all those posts from people wanting an HR20 and not wanting an HR21 can easily be handed down and re-worded into "HR20 good HR21 sucks"


I also participate in the AVS Local HDTV forum for my DMA with discussions of HD on cable vs E*, vs D* and OTA. We have 5 OTA HD broadcast stations. D* does not currently provide any HD locals here , and even with D11 cannot provide full HD local channel coverage for this DMA unless they assign at least five HD channels to little DMA 126 which is more than most larger DMAs get now.

*My local advice for those interested in D* service in our DMA is, " Only the HR20 DVR works here so do not accept an HR21 DVR at this time.*" That could be reinterpreted by some readers as " if D* won't guarantee me a HR 20 install, I won't subscribe to D* at all". *The sooner D* defines " the solution" the better!"*


----------



## mortimer

So normally I do all my research before making a major purchase, but for some reason the HR21 slipped through the cracks, and that's what I ended up with.

Major WAF issue here. Has anyone successfully convinced D* to switch their new HR21 with an HR20? I'm hitting a brick wall with them... maybe I'm not the "A" list customer they keep saying I am...

While I am somewhat willing to wait for the promised OTA solution for the HR21, I'd much rather just swap out for an HR20...


----------



## CharlesHungerford

I just found this board/thread..wish I had sooner..I have been dealing with D* on this issue since we moved and the tech show up with hr21's..

I wasn't aware of the no OTA capability until I went to hook up my antenna..

Long story short, after about 10 calls to D*(they acted like I was the only one with this issue..pretty funny now that I found this thread) I told them I didn't want the hr21's and if I could find the hr20 would they give me a $300 credit for me purchasing the reciever's at my local CC..They went for it but I could only find one and they applied a $300 credit to my account when I activated the hr20 and de-activated the hr21..

The bad news when I called and activated the one that I found they then said they wouldn't do it on the other (not what they said the previous call to customer retention) but I could only find one hr20 in my area so at least for now I can get my locals on one of my tv's in hd thru the hr20 reciever


----------



## 911medic

hasan said:


> The case for OTA (in specific circumstances) has been made over and over and over. You have made it again. Only people who don't want to "get it", continue to tell the OTA people that they don't really need it and shouldn't be disturbed by current trends.
> 
> I am encouraged by "there will be a solution". I'll accept that at face value from D*.
> 
> The rest of the pro/con OTA argument has become tiresome, to say the least.


+1

One of the best posts ever (all parts of it). Nicely stated.


----------



## waynenm

As powerful as D* may seem at the moment, without OTA capability in the DVR, they're simply setting themselves up to be beaten. It's not our fault that the Lin people, and others can't resolve issues with D* for locals being carried, not to mention limited bandwidth. We who need OTA will find a way, with or without D*. I'd prefer with. But it's truly on them to smell the coffee.


----------



## islander66

For local channels they install the little dish on your roof for 99b or 103a.

D* didn't set up the OTA on the HR20.

I did that myself and took the small dish down.

The answer will be the new satellite 11 that will have HD network locals.

Call back and tell them you need to cancel if they can't send a HR20. That' s the only way you can get to the next level who can send you the HR20.

Edit: For me the HD national local channels would be fine. YMMV.


----------



## RapidRealm

I wish I had read the whole thread before D* came to upgrade me. They called me last week offering a free upgrade (from my HR10-250) to get all the new HD channels. I told them as long as I could still get my OTA and they assured me everything would be the same except I would get the new HD channels. I even verified the receiver specs at D*.com and all looked good (specs were for the HR20 at that time). The tech shows up with a HR21 and realizes there's no OTA. He calls tech support and they say they'll ship me a HR20 next week. He proceeds to activate the HR21 so he can test if the new HD channels come in.

I check my account at D* this morning and there's no pending orders so I call. They have no record of shipping a HR20. In fact, they say they don't have the ability to even ship one. After much discussion with the CSR, I finally get to a supervisor [Chris #5904]. He says the solution D* has is "hook your antenna directly to your TV." He also went on to say, even if we could ship you an HR20, it wouldn't be of much help, because D* is going to disable the OTA tuner on all existing STBs within a few months.

So now I'm SOL with an HR21 with no OTA  . They said they can add local channels for $6/mo or they can change my expired package to a current package which includes locals for an extra $13/mo. All in all, an extremely rude and frustrating conversation with the bottom line of "D* doesn't really doesn't care about your OTA and they don't have to provide DVR/menu service to any channels that they don't transmit." I've been a customer for 12 years and this is the worst customer service experience.

Anyone hear about disabling OTA on all receivers?


----------



## psweig

RapidRealm said:


> I wish I had read the whole thread before D* came to upgrade me. They called me last week offering a free upgrade (from my HR10-250) to get all the new HD channels. I told them as long as I could still get my OTA and they assured me everything would be the same except I would get the new HD channels. I even verified the receiver specs at D*.com and all looked good (specs were for the HR20 at that time). The tech shows up with a HR21 and realizes there's no OTA. He calls tech support and they say they'll ship me a HR20 next week. He proceeds to activate the HR21 so he can test if the new HD channels come in.
> 
> I check my account at D* this morning and there's no pending orders so I call. They have no record of shipping a HR20. In fact, they say they don't have the ability to even ship one. After much discussion with the CSR, I finally get to a supervisor [Chris #5904]. He says the solution D* has is "hook your antenna directly to your TV." He also went on to say, even if we could Iship you an HR20, it wouldn't be of much help, because D* is going to disable the OTA tuner on all existing STBs within a few months.
> 
> So now I'm SOL with an HR21 with no OTA  . They said they can add local channels for $6/mo or they can change my expired package to a current package which includes locals for an extra $13/mo. All in all, an extremely rude and frustrating conversation with the bottom line of "D* doesn't really doesn't care about your OTA and they don't have to provide DVR/menu service to any channels that they don't transmit." I've been a customer for 12 years and this is the worst customer service experience.
> 
> Anyone hear about disabling OTA on all receivers?


If all this is true  I'm up a creek I have a 2year old MONITOR I need OTA , I have no ATSC tuner.


----------



## ebr

RapidRealm said:


> ...
> 
> Anyone hear about disabling OTA on all receivers?


That does suck. Such is the state of first level support.

As far as the above statement - this whole thread is directly refuting it. So, I'd guess that is total bunk - again from first level support people who don't really know much other than what is written down for them.

I'd call them back and ask to be transferred to customer retention. Those folks seem to know more about what is really going on. You should either get an HR20 or get your HR-10 back and wipe off any charges for the upgrade.


----------



## philslc

psweig said:


> If all this is true  I'm up a creek I have a 2year old MONITOR I need OTA , I have no ATSC tuner.


You can use an HD Tivo for OTA if all else fails. Of course that might make you fall in love with DLB and all the other great Tivo stuff.


----------



## bobcamp1

donshan said:


> I also participate in the AVS Local HDTV forum for my DMA with discussions of HD on cable vs E*, vs D* and OTA. We have 5 OTA HD broadcast stations. D* does not currently provide any HD locals here , and even with D11 cannot provide full HD local channel coverage for this DMA unless they assign at least five HD channels to little DMA 126 which is more than most larger DMAs get now.
> 
> *My local advice for those interested in D* service in our DMA is, " Only the HR20 DVR works here so do not accept an HR21 DVR at this time.*" That could be reinterpreted by some readers as " if D* won't guarantee me a HR 20 install, I won't subscribe to D* at all". *The sooner D* defines " the solution" the better!"*


That's the problem here. I live in a top 100 DMA. DirecTV offers no local HD channels. Then why are they even selling the HR21 here? They don't think people won't want to watch the top four rated channels in the country? Why is it the nearest Best Buy that has an HR20 is 150 miles away?

Why is it DirecTV (and the moderators of this forum, who I've liked up until this point) insist that OTA is a POS? They have forgotten the golden rules of sales:

1. The customer is always right.
2. When the customer is wrong, see rule #1.

The title of this thread is unacceptable. It should state "We already have a solution -- just ask for it". The solution had to be released the same time as the HR21 if they were going to recall all the HR20s. And why recall the HR20s in areas where you don't even provide LiLs? The HR21 rollout has been bungled badly. And the holiday shopping season is right around the corner. I was thinking about upgrading to HD DirecTV next month, but not anymore.

I'm seriously looking at Dish now. And that is what I think the OTA solution is.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bobcamp1 said:


> That's the problem here. I live in a top 100 DMA. DirecTV offers no local HD channels. Then why are they even selling the HR21 here? They don't think people won't want to watch the top four rated channels in the country? Why is it the nearest Best Buy that has an HR20 is 150 miles away?
> 
> Why is it DirecTV (and the moderators of this forum, who I've liked up until this point) insist that OTA is a POS? They have forgotten the golden rules of sales:
> 
> 1. The customer is always right.
> 2. When the customer is wrong, see rule #1.
> 
> The title of this thread is unacceptable. It should state "We already have a solution -- just ask for it". The solution had to be released the same time as the HR21 if they were going to recall all the HR20s. And why recall the HR20s in areas where you don't even provide LiLs? The HR21 rollout has been bungled badly. And the holiday shopping season is right around the corner. I was thinking about upgrading to HD DirecTV next month, but not anymore.
> 
> I'm seriously looking at Dish now. And that is what I think the OTA solution is.


Where has any of the moderators or DirecTV refered to OTA as a POS!!!!! Seriously... point me to the thread/post.

And sorry... the "golden rule of sales" is so tarnished right now, as the customer isn't always right...

And frankly... if you have looked at the bigger picture, as explained many times right... supply/demand.

The HR20 is in short supply because of the initial demand for the product.
HR21's were piling up while waiting for release.

And frankly... no DirecTV is not expecting to make people skip out on the "top 4" channels. They have stated multiple times now, that their two new sats combined will have support for 1,500 LiL channels.

So what do you think they are going to use that for? 
They could provide the big 4 in all designated DMAs and still have room.

If you are converting from an existing box that has OTA support...
IIRC, not many of those boxes are being taken from you in the upgrade process.

So keep them active, and for the most part... a lot of the other DirecTV boxes will work for OTA even without a subscription.

In most cases, you are allowed to keep your HR10-250's... so use that for your OTA recording.

If you are just now converting to HD... .well you didn't have your HD-Locals before... and you don't have them now... so nothing has really changed there.

So back to the original point:

Where has any DirecTV official, press release, or one of the moderators stated that OTA was POS.

What we have stated is that OTA equipment in the box is a cost for DirecTV, both from a hardware, royalty and support aspects.... with no return to DirecTV.

As for switching to Dish... glad you found a solution for yourself....


----------



## bhelton71

bobcamp1 said:


> ---
> Why is it DirecTV (and the moderators of this forum, who I've liked up until this point) insist that OTA is a POS? They have forgotten the golden rules of sales:
> 
> ---


Nice - while I am quite sure the mods can fend for themselves - I am pretty sure a couple of them use off air and I don't think any have ever said OTA = POS.

Edit - Earl has already answered.


----------



## Doug Brott

RapidRealm said:


> I wish I had read the whole thread before D* came to upgrade me. They called me last week offering a free upgrade (from my HR10-250) to get all the new HD channels. I told them as long as I could still get my OTA and they assured me everything would be the same except I would get the new HD channels. I even verified the receiver specs at D*.com and all looked good (specs were for the HR20 at that time). The tech shows up with a HR21 and realizes there's no OTA. He calls tech support and they say they'll ship me a HR20 next week. He proceeds to activate the HR21 so he can test if the new HD channels come in.
> 
> I check my account at D* this morning and there's no pending orders so I call. They have no record of shipping a HR20. In fact, they say they don't have the ability to even ship one. After much discussion with the CSR, I finally get to a supervisor [Chris #5904]. He says the solution D* has is "hook your antenna directly to your TV." He also went on to say, even if we could ship you an HR20, it wouldn't be of much help, because D* is going to disable the OTA tuner on all existing STBs within a few months.
> 
> So now I'm SOL with an HR21 with no OTA  . They said they can add local channels for $6/mo or they can change my expired package to a current package which includes locals for an extra $13/mo. All in all, an extremely rude and frustrating conversation with the bottom line of "D* doesn't really doesn't care about your OTA and they don't have to provide DVR/menu service to any channels that they don't transmit." I've been a customer for 12 years and this is the worst customer service experience.
> 
> Anyone hear about disabling OTA on all receivers?


RapidRealm,

From the information provided by Earl (our in-house guru), the HR20-700 has been discontinued. However, the HR20-100 is still in production. DIRECTV has also stated that OTA will be sticking around, hence this thread stating "We will have a solution."

Your CSR supervisor was misinformed. You want an HR20. You should give DIRECTV a call and try again to get your receiver swapped out.


----------



## Que

RapidRealm said:


> Anyone hear about disabling OTA on all receivers?


I don't think they can do that? Can they? They can build ones without them but, they can't send an update that turns them off to ones that have them....

Call back and get an HR20.


----------



## BkwSoft

Que said:


> I don't think they can do that? Can they? They can build ones without them but, they can't send an update that turns them off to ones that have them....
> 
> Call back and get an HR20.


Technically there is nothing stopping them from doing this. OTA was not supported when the HR20 first came out and was later enabled via software.

IMHO as long as OTA is supported I think that LiLs on the Sat are a waste of bandwidth. Over 75% of what we record is OTA. It's reliable, extremely high PQ and isn't effected by the weather.


----------



## billsharpe

This thread has been active for two weeks now. The only positive indicator we have seen is that at least one version of the HR20 is still in production.

Until DirecTV comes up with a satisfactory mechanism to provide this unit to those that request it the production status isn't that helpful. Sending people scurrying to BB, CC, or Costco to find a unit isn't helpful, either.

Sending the installer away when he arrives with an HR21 instead of an HR20 isn't cost-effective for DirecTV and is a time-waster for both the installer and the customer.


----------



## bryguyboi

First off I would lke to say that everyone stating "just call up D* and get them to send you a HR20" hasn't really tried it. I can tell you that D* is flipping a TON of crap at customers who do this. We have called numerous times with no luck. They don't even know what it is. one rep told us the the HR21 was the latest most advanced box with all of the features. Eventually he back tracked after looking at the back of a box. I think it's unacceptable that they would roll out a new box and not even think that it would cause significant issues for customers. I live in Boise, ID and I'm not sure if we will ever see HD locals, and if we ever do they will be so down converted that they will be unacceptable compared to OTA.

As far as the last few posts about the moderators. I do see a lot of negative attitude towards the people with this problem. I'm not quite sure where the hostility comes from.... Oh, and trust me D* does get something out of keeping its current and new customers happy. I just converted from D* Network and everything was working fine with their OTA tuners. D* has a chance with new HD content and a bunch of new customers coming online to keep them around for a long time. However, I am wondering about my decision to change and it's all over the OTA issue. I would think they wouldn't want me to have that apprehension after only 1 month on board.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bryguyboi said:


> I think it's unacceptable that they would roll out a new box and not even think that it would cause significant issues for customers.
> .....


You honestly think that they just pulled OTA from their new box, without discussing what impact it would have?


----------



## Herdfan

billsharpe said:


> Until DirecTV comes up with a satisfactory mechanism to provide this unit to those that request it the production status isn't that helpful. Sending people scurrying to BB, CC, or Costco to find a unit isn't helpful, either.


That is the biggest problem D* faces right now. Even if supplies of the HR20-100 were adequate, if they have no way to provide a customer with the receiver they want, then that is bad customer service. They have a way to distinguish between SD, SD-DVR, HD and HD DVR and each of those receivers is different. So why not add a 5th option HD DVR OTA.

Another problem is that D* has let two of its biggest outlets determine which model they will carry. Allow BB and CC to only carry the 21 because its the newest does a disservice to customers who live in markets where HD LIL's are not available.

As they have done in the past, a large part of this "problem" is of D*'s own making and could have been avoided if some better planning had been done.


----------



## lman

I understand that DTV wanted to make a lower cost DVR, so they removed OTA tuners. So why is the HR 21 the same price as the HR 20. Something doesn't seem right.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> I understand that DTV wanted to make a lower cost DVR, so they removed OTA tuners. So why is the HR 21 the same price as the HR 20. Something doesn't seem right.


Because at $299, you were all ready paying "under" the cost of the unit.

And even when they remove the components, you are sitll paying "under" the cost of the unit.

So DirecTV is still taking a loss when the box is leased at $299.

It is a cost cutting step for DirecTV, not one to reduce the cost to the customers.


----------



## Lee L

Wow, Hooray for good call center management. No wonder they are bringing in a new person to head that area as it is clear they are way off in CSR training. So bad that it is a universal joke around here and many other forums that you can beleive nothing a CSR tells you.


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> You honestly think that they just pulled OTA from their new box, without discussing what impact it would have?


I am sure they discussed it. But that doesn't mean their decisions or how they implement those decisions made sense.

If the HR20 is such a huge succcess and supply can't meet demand...why do you discontinue the -700?

Why do you not pass on the cost of those OTA tuners in the cost of that box?

Why does the HR21 and HR20 sell for the same price?

Why do you start producing a non-OTA box without even knowing what the promised solutions will be?

What is the cost of designing and implementing that "solution"?

What is the hidden cost of switching out boxes and re-scheduled installations?

Not to mention losing some customers who are prepared to commit to HD and DVR fees with 2 year subscription committments?

You shouldn't give prospective ciustomers such easy reasons to be dissatisfied with their investment. You r answer that you shoulg keep your HR10-250 and keep it active for OTA is ridiculous...

unless DTV wants to pick up the mirroring fee....but that's $120 over 2 years...in lost revenue..wonder what an OTA tuner costs?


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because at $299, you were all ready paying "under" the cost of the unit.
> 
> And even when they remove the components, you are sitll paying "under" the cost of the unit.
> 
> So DirecTV is still taking a loss when the box is leased at $299.
> 
> It is a cost cutting step for DirecTV, not one to reduce the cost to the customers.


So what you're saying is they under-priced their product and now have to reduce functionality to make it economical for the company?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Replies In Line: More indepth replies, scattered all over this thread (And else where)



mikewolf13 said:


> I am sure they discussed it. But that doesn't mean their decisions or how they implement those decisions made sense.
> 
> If the HR20 is such a huge succcess and supply can't meet demand...why do you discontinue the -700?
> _Because its not the "HR20" that is a huge success, it is the HR-DVR. _
> 
> Why do you not pass on the cost of those OTA tuners in the cost of that box?
> _There is still the matter of the royalties for ATSC_
> 
> Why does the HR21 and HR20 sell for the same price?
> _See the reply just a bit earlier, the units still cost more to build then you are paying for them. It was a cost cut, not a reduction in the cost for the customer_
> 
> Why do you start producing a non-OTA box without even knowing what the promised solutions will be?
> _Who ever said that DirecTV didn't know what their solution would be_
> 
> What is the cost of designing and implementing that "solution"?
> _Does it matter? That is a DirecTV concern, and something that fould factor in to their decisions_
> 
> What is the hidden cost of switching out boxes and re-scheduled installations?
> _I am sure it is there, but in what volume do you think it is occuring, in comparison to any other re-visists/rescheduling that already occurs_
> 
> Not to mention losing some customers who are prepared to commit to HD and DVR fees with 2 year subscription committments?
> _They know they are not going to get every customer. IMHO: For each person that is bent over OTA, they will find many others that dont' want/need OTA_
> 
> You shouldn't give prospective ciustomers such easy reasons to be dissatisfied with their investment. You r answer that you shoulg keep your HR10-250 and keep it active for OTA is ridiculous...
> _Do you want a current solution, or do you just want to continue to moan and groan.... Do you go to the doctor's and not take a viable symptom cure, while waiting for a file solution?_
> 
> unless DTV wants to pick up the mirroring fee....but that's $120 over 2 years...in lost revenue..wonder what an OTA tuner costs?
> _Who said they will pick it up? It is the consumer that has to make the choice. _


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mikewolf13 said:


> So what you're saying is they under-priced their product and now have to reduce functionality to make it economical for the company?


Yes... what a shocker that a company would do that now adays.

And people wonder why no more then 250,000 HR10-250's were sold when it cost $1,000.... No consumer wants to pay the full price for anything no adays

As for reducing functionality... did they break your HR20 somehow?


----------



## ebr

BkwSoft said:



> ...
> 
> IMHO as long as OTA is supported I think that LiLs on the Sat are a waste of bandwidth. Over 75% of what we record is OTA. It's reliable, extremely high PQ and isn't effected by the weather.


That depends on where you are. I have the exact opposite problem. I moved to the HR20 (from the HR10) primarily to get my HD locals via sat because my antenna reception is so spotty. In my location I could pull in two of the stations reliably. I could pick which two but only get two of them. And, even then, the weather (being humidity and time of year) did have an affect on the reception.

I finally moved over to the new box because I couldn't take that look from my wife anymore when either 24 or Grey's went all pixellated for a minute and we lost sound.

So, OTA is great for some, but not the panacea that maybe you think it is. I'm very happy getting my HD locals via the sat now.


----------



## dreadlk

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where has any of the moderators or DirecTV refered to OTA as a POS!!!!! Seriously... point me to the thread/post.
> ....


I don't think that was ever said but I do think people got a bit upset because the Mods did not jump in on the HR21 bashing, instead you guys kind of embraced the HR21 and down played the lack of OTA. Even today the OTA issue is being downplayed by the Mods. It's kind of hard for a person to make a 2 year commitment when an essential feature is lacking and its future implementation is based on a vague promise and even worst a promise that is not from the horse's mouth.

On the other hand I think some people fail to understand that the great inside info that we have enjoyed on this forum comes at a price, it puts the Mods in a very delicate position, so they have got to be careful about everything they say or else the relationship with D* will go sour.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dreadlk said:


> I don't think that was ever said but I do think people got a bit upset because the Mods did not jump in on the HR21 bashing, instead you guys kind of embraced the HR21 and down played the lack of OTA. Even today the OTA issue is being downplayed by the Mods. It's kind of hard for a person to make a 2 year commitment when an essential feature is lacking and its future implementation is based on a vague promise and even worst a promise that is not from the horse's mouth.
> 
> On the other hand I think some people fail to understand that the great inside info that we have enjoyed on this forum comes at a price, it puts the Mods in a very delicate position, so they have got to be careful about everything they say or else the relationship with D* will go sour.


I don't think we are "downplaying it"... we have allowed many discussion and participated in a lot of them. I pulled out of this one, as frankly... nothing has changed.. or is it going to change "tomorrow". DirecTV will have an OTA solution for those that needed it / want it. You may have to wait and not convert today... but the information is there for anyone looking.

I have my opinion on OTA... but when I stated it... I get attacked for it.
All I will say on it.. "essential feature" is very dependent on your situation, your location, your installation, and many other factors that are not consitant amongst every user/poster.

Honestly... we don't have to be as carefull as you all constantly think we have to be..... .and frankly, I know for my self... it is getting a little tiresome for everyone to keep assuming that.


----------



## bobinyuma

Like many folks chiming in, I live in an area that the DMA is very very low(170 I think). No lil for sd or hd. today I recieved an HR21. the installer callled before hand because he noticed a note on the install instructions that I needed an HR20 due to OTA. He indicated (obviously) he has had a lot of unhappy customers the past few weeks in our area due to not being able to get the locals via the new receiver. I recall making the request based on the info I read on the forums. CSR stated I will get what I get and nothing can be done, but he did put the request on the install instructions. Upon reading the threads, I gather not all is lost, in that the HR20-100 will still be produced (why is everyone upset if this becomes an immediate solution soon). I guess the real questions will be, when will directv recognize that some areas (until full lil is available) cannot get the networks. Even though today I am not a very satisfied customer, I have a hard time blaming Directv for this. Obviously, I have other provider options, but I have been with directv for about 10 years and would like to give them the opportunity to make this work. Either a quick solution for the HR21 or an HR20-100 or even a refurbed 700 would be ok with me, if they would be willing??


----------



## nexus7

lman said:


> I understand that DTV wanted to make a lower cost DVR, so they removed OTA tuners. So why is the HR 21 the same price as the HR 20. Something doesn't seem right.


Okay, so it's still (less of) a loss-leader...but why keep on making the HR20-100 instead of 2nd-sourcing the HR21 and then not manage the SKU as a separate entity? It's not like there aren't any other SKU's that they have to match up with entitlement.


----------



## lukep10

Hey guys we had our national sales meeting weekend before last and DTV was stating at that time they expect to have the OTA solution out by christmas time.


----------



## GAM

That would great but I'm not holding my breath for that soon of a release.


----------



## dreadlk

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have my opinion on OTA... but when I stated it... I get attacked for it.
> All I will say on it.. "essential feature" is very dependent on your situation, your location, your installation, and many other factors that are not consitant amongst every user/poster..


 LOL Thats not the opinion they want  They want you to bash D* for removing OTA.:grin:



Earl Bonovich said:


> Honestly... we don't have to be as carefull as you all constantly think we have to be..... .and frankly, I know for my self... it is getting a little tiresome for everyone to keep assuming that.


You guys must be real lucky. When I was in your position I had to be very careful. In the end I got sick of it! The constant complaints by forum users and then always having too balance myself from falling over the diplomatic edge, was very difficult. The final blow was the realization that when the company got there products debugged and working they forgot all the forum people who helped them; IOW they lost interest in adding the features we wanted once the product was bug free. I Hope you guys get better treatment.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dreadlk said:


> I Hope you guys get better treatment.


For the most part... the users here treat us all respectfully, and understand that we are just fans/geeks just as much as them... but there are a few....

Since we are not staff members of DirecTV, and have our own careers... yes we have blance this "hobby" of ours and real life.


----------



## okieroy

I liv in OKC and we get all networks but not all the sub channels. I really want a single source input to my TV. I have purchased all of my receivers and dishes, switches over the years. I did get DTV to upgrade three of my HR10s to HR20's.
I know the new lease system helps compete with cable but based on my experience with cable and DTV installers I much prefer doing My own installation.
I reallize I am in the minority but I have had satellite TV since 1978 in the C band days. I am concerned that DTV is becoming more concerned about cost and profit than customer service. I hope I am wrong. I love my DTV! I think I may get an extra HR20 from best buy before they ar all gone.


----------



## kristina

OK. Maybe the "solution" will help me. I just got off the phone with DirecTV, who offered me a free HRx "upgrade." I want to keep my HR10 running alongside for the time being, but eventually I will migrate over to the HR20/21. 

Of course, the CSR could not promise the HR20. I offered to get one myself, but she indicated that I would be paying the full $299 if I went that route. 

Since I'm keeping the HR10 right now, it's not mandatory for me to have OTA on the other DVR. Do you guys think I should just take the deal, hope for an HR20 but probably get an HR21, and hope that this "solution" comes out before I switch completely over from the TiVo unit? 

BTW, the "solution" must be genuine OTA for me and not just more LiL; I want to preserve all the functionality of the HR10 and means receiving every OTA channel and subchannel.


----------



## nuke

kristina said:


> Of course, the CSR could not promise the HR20. I offered to get one myself, but she indicated that I would be paying the full $299 if I went that route.


Keep trying. They'll do it. I got offered a free "HD DVR+" or $200 credit. I took the credit and got the HR20 from Costco.

If they gave you an express customer service number and a PIN, your chances are pretty fair.

D* is completely schizoid on what they'll do for people. One day it is "no, no, no, and no." Next it is pleasant conversation and "Yes, that's no problem, we'd be happy to that."

The "solution" is as simple as D* putting a button on their customer ordering screen that says, "HD DVR with local OTA - antenna required" and another that says, "HD DVR with digital locals from satellite only - no TV antenna required."

That alone would satisfy 99.5% of the people in a single phone call or just a web-click.

It really is that bloody simple, just keep 2 SKU's in the inventory system. Send the OTA box when requested.


----------



## kristina

nuke said:


> Keep trying. They'll do it. I got offered a free "HD DVR+" or $200 credit. I took the credit and got the HR20 from Costco.
> 
> If they gave you an express customer service number and a PIN, your chances are pretty fair.
> 
> D* is completely schizoid on what they'll do for people. One day it is "no, no, no, and no." Next it is pleasant conversation and "Yes, that's no problem, we'd be happy to that."
> 
> The "solution" is as simple as D* putting a button on their customer ordering screen that says, "HD DVR with local OTA - antenna required" and another that says, "HD DVR with digital locals from satellite only - no TV antenna required."
> 
> That alone would satisfy 99.5% of the people in a single phone call or just a web-click.
> 
> It really is that bloody simple, just keep 2 SKU's in the inventory system. Send the OTA box when requested.


Yeah, but that's $99 dollars out of pocket vs. free, plus you're doing all the legwork hunting down the HR20. I just want them to honor the "free" part of the offer!


----------



## nuke

kristina said:


> Yeah, but that's $99 dollars out of pocket vs. free, plus you're doing all the legwork hunting down the HR20. I just want them to honor the "free" part of the offer!


That's just it, DTV *can't* satisfy you, even if they wanted to. Their inventory system doesn't let them order you an HR20. It just lets them click the box that says, "HD DVR+".

Actually, it's $50 out of pocket.

The "free" deal gets a $19 shipping charge.

Costco has the HR20's and HR21's for $269. That's a net $50. If you want to gamble on eBay, then you can probably do better there. No hunting involved, Costco has pallets of them right by the front door. 

Or keep messing with D* on the phone, they'll probably offer more as you whine more.

I got a free 5 LNB dish installed today too.

I demoted the HDTivo to the bedroom. The HDVR2 SD Tivo that was in the bedroom will go on eBay. Thus I recoup my $50. From the upgrading anyway.

I'm still out the cost of the HDVR2 (don't remember what it was) and the HR20-250 ( ~$1k). But the HR10-250 is soldiering on for now with a much expanded drive and OTA and partial satellite HD capability.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

lukep10 said:


> Hey guys we had our national sales meeting weekend before last and DTV was stating at that time they expect to have the OTA solution out by christmas time.


Any idea as what the "solution" is? An adapter, like the USB adapter mentioned earlier in this thread? Any other guesses?

Edit: Whats the point of having the OTA input on the SWM if there are no OTA inputs on the HR21? Are they going to do away with those too?

They should have never removed the OTA tuners until ALL HD-LIL were on the new sats.


----------



## kristina

theratpatrol said:


> Any idea as what the "solution" is? An adapter, like the USB adapter mentioned earlier in this thread? Any other guesses?


For the sake of argument, let's say the "solution" is this USB adapter. My question is simple: would that make the HR21's OTA capability identical to that of the HR20's right now?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

theratpatrol said:


> Any idea as what the "solution" is? An adapter, like the USB adapter mentioned earlier in this thread? Any other guesses?
> 
> Edit: Whats the point of having the OTA input on the SWM if there are no OTA inputs on the HR21? Are they going to do away with those too?
> 
> They should have never removed the OTA tuners until ALL HD-LIL were on the new sats.


The SWM was developed for several systems and implimentations in mind... not just the HR21


----------



## Marvin

kristina said:


> For the sake of argument, let's say the "solution" is this USB adapter. My question is simple: would that make the HR21's OTA capability identical to that of the HR20's right now?


I've got a bad feeling it will allow you to receive your OTA but not record it..


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Marvin said:


> I've got a bad feeling it will allow you to receive your OTA but not record it..


Seriously... why would you think that? If the unit can tune it, why wouldn't they let you record it?


----------



## su_A_ve

Which one would come first - CIR or this ?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

su_A_ve said:


> Which one would come first - CIR or this ?


Well considering CIG is already rolling out... I will say CIG


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Ok so if its a USB solution, is this something that D* has to find a company to make, or is there something out there already that will work (like on the first page)?

Thanks


----------



## narcolept

theratpatrol said:


> Ok so if its a USB solution, is this something that D* has to find a company to make, or is there something out there already that will work (like on the first page)?
> 
> Thanks


Probably something we'll see when the OTA solution is released, if it is in fact USB -- I'm sure after the first ones trickle out, we'll have a complete rundown of the manufacturer, where the parts are sourced from, if it's a new device/whether it was simply rebranded, etc.


----------



## 911medic

narcolept said:


> Probably something we'll see when the OTA solution is released, if it is in fact USB -- I'm sure after the first ones trickle out, we'll have a complete rundown of the manufacturer, where the parts are sourced from, if it's a new device/whether it was simply rebranded, etc.


I fully expect a DBSTalk "first look"!!!!


----------



## flipptyfloppity

kristina said:


> For the sake of argument, let's say the "solution" is this USB adapter. My question is simple: would that make the HR21's OTA capability identical to that of the HR20's right now?


I would think it would be better!

The HR20 doesn't exactly have the latest in OTA chips in it. It's likely any new solution (USB add-on or new box) would receive have better OTA reception than the HR20.

For example, didn't I read the VHF Lo (2-6) OTA reception of the HR20-700 was near non-existent?


----------



## Que

billsharpe said:


> This thread has been active for two weeks now. The only positive indicator we have seen is that at least one version of the HR20 is still in production.
> 
> Until DirecTV comes up with a satisfactory mechanism to provide this unit to those that request it the production status isn't that helpful. Sending people scurrying to BB, CC, or Costco to find a unit isn't helpful, either.
> 
> Sending the installer away when he arrives with an HR21 instead of an HR20 isn't cost-effective for DirecTV and is a time-waster for both the installer and the customer.


What...You think this was well thought out? 

I don't know why they can't just ask the user. You need OTA? Then they click a box to send out an HR20. Why do they make it so hard?


----------



## makaiguy

flipptyfloppity said:


> ... didn't I read the VHF Lo (2-6) OTA reception of the HR20-700 was near non-existent?


Could be. I've had my HR20-700 for maybe a month now. Ch 6 is the only local in my area in the low band, and it's the only one that gives me pixillization and breakups. 12, 14, 26, and 54 seem pretty solid.


----------



## ebockelman

I guess I don't see the big deal here. Even if Directv were to drop OTA recording, there are plenty of ATSC DVR options, including Tivo.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Which arent cheap. I already had to pay a fee that equaled current tivo prices for the HR20.


----------



## hasan

ebockelman said:


> I guess I don't see the big deal here. Even if Directv were to drop OTA recording, there are plenty of ATSC DVR options, including Tivo.


Maybe if you read the entire thread, you'd get an inkling? If you read the entire thread and still don't understand what the "big deal" is, get back to us. This thing has been beaten to death from all sorts of angles....to maintain that you "don't see the big deal here", in the face of all the discussion, either means there is a reading comprehension problem, or we have yet another troll.

Your suggestion has been discussed, (in multiple threads), so I'm not going to restart what has become a tedious (at best) series of arguments. If you "don't get it" after reading what has already been written, then you aren't going to get it by rehashing all this stuff all over again (again).


----------



## randyk47

I guess my comment about the "pick the model" choice (i.e., you need OTA then you ask for an HR20) is all fine and good except D* can't communicate effectively with the installers as it is. Witness the number of times folks have scheduled upgrades (new dish along with DVR) only to have the installer show up with the DVR and no idea that you required/requested a dish upgrade. That's pretty simple stuff. it's not like there are two versions of the dish.


----------



## jwd45244

randyk47 said:


> it's not like there are two versions of the dish.


That's a joke, right? You do know that there are two versions of the dish.


----------



## hasan

jwd45244 said:


> That's a joke, right? You do know that there are two versions of the dish.


Maybe he meant the older 3 LNB model vs the 5 LNB?

I think most people are now getting the Slimline compared to the older AT-9. I have one of each. The first one installed last year was an AT-9.

p.s. I ordered a new HR20 and dish...the dish was mandatory, as I have two setups on opposite ends of the house. The installer said he didn't have it on the work order. Called D* and they said, "yes it is". Yet another example of poor communication between the installer and D* (without assigning specific fault in this case, as I have no idea who didn't tell who what)


----------



## Lord Vader

There are rumors that D* will introduce in early 2008 an external USB device for the HR21s that will enable OTA reception.


----------



## kristina

Lord Vader said:


> There are rumors that D* will introduce in early 2008 an external USB device for the HR21s that will enable OTA reception.


So, I'll ask again. Would this hypothetical device make the HR21's OTA capability identical to that of the HR20? Will I be able to record two programs OTA simultaneously?

If the answer is yes, I'll just take the "free" HR21 offer. I can wait a bit for the OTA thingie to come, since I'm keeping my HR10 for the moment. Is this what you guys would suggest?

I just feel very frustrated by this experience. I've known for a couple of years that there would come a day when I would be migrating over to a non-Tivo, or giving up DirecTV. I made my choice, and am sticking with DirecTV because they are now offering the content that I want. For two years I've paid the extra HD fee every month for a few lousy channels and one real stinker (I'm looking at you, TNT). But things seem to be looking up. People even say they can't tell a difference between OTA HD and MPEG-4 (right now there is a significant difference on my Fujitsu). So right when I'm ready to make the transition, they throw this stupid curveball in the form of the HR21 and don't even have a system in place to offer their customers a choice.


----------



## Drew2k

kristina said:


> So, I'll ask again. Would this hypothetical device make the HR21's OTA capability identical to that of the HR20? Will I be able to record two programs OTA simultaneously?


It's hypothetical. No one here can answer with anything other than guesses how a hypothetical device will function.


----------



## bhelton71

Ok this should be pretty high in contention for the dumb question of the day. 

In a fairy tale world where I own my own satellite television company called Indirectv, we have one settop box. Our corporate espionage unit stole the plans for the HR20. We modified it by removing the hdd and shrinking the box down by using the processor from the HR21. We left the eSata port active - if our customers want PVR capabilities, we have an agreement with another company to allow our customers to purchase a HDD to hook up to our box. Otherwise the box is just a normal sat reciever. We use only the one board design for customers using HD connections or SD connections. We only support one codebase. And much like Henry Ford, we might consider 2 different colors as long as they're both black.

Why wouldn't a company want to do that instead of having so many different settop boxes? I do realize that there may be more to it than that but just on the face of it, I would think the hdd would cost more than the atsc tuner. The selling spin being - you the customer get to choose your own size. And I don't have to worry about failures and replacements - cause its yours.


----------



## bobcamp1

bhelton71 said:


> Nice - while I am quite sure the mods can fend for themselves - I am pretty sure a couple of them use off air and I don't think any have ever said OTA = POS.
> 
> Edit - Earl has already answered.


Well... there's the entire "want" vs. "need" OTA arguement. I've seen it a couple of times. And what about questioning people who do have LiLs about still wanting the HR20 for an OTA backup? What about stating that the subchannels aren't that important (to them)? They may not have directly said it, but every other thing they have said indicates a disdain towards OTA. Maybe they do like OTA, but lately they have been downplaying it a lot and making us feel guilty about demanding it.

And Earl, you do think like an engineer -- too much. As an engineer, the one thing I've learned (the hard way) is that the customer really truly is always right. I think this thread indicates that no matter how dumb you think your customers are, you will never be able to change their mind. This is because they are not dumb, they just have a different point of view (even amongst themselves), and it's their money. The size of this thread alone shows that a nerve has been touched here.

The odd part about this whole thing is that I usually agree with the moderators. They are usually in tune with what's going on. Maybe they've all been replaced by their evil twins.

I understand the HR21. It was derived from (or alongside) the H21, which dropped the ATSC tuner because most DTVs out there now also have an ATSC tuner. The ATSC tuners are expensive from a parts and IPR perspective. It's a nice DVR and makes sense for some people. The problem is that it's being forced down all of our throats, and for at least 36% of the population, it's a big step backwards (I did the math last night). A DVR that can't record the four major networks in HD? And nobody can record the minor networks or PBS (except maybe Alaska/Hawaii)? Name one other HD DVR like that.

Finally, since I work in a tech. company, here's the typical translation of statements made in the past few weeks adapted towards this situation. Statements like this aren't helping -- a lot of us have been on the giving end of these statements, so we know what they really mean.

"We can't guarantee which product you'll get" --> you're getting the (cheaper) HR21.

"The old product has been recalled to support existing owners" --> if you don't already have an HR20, you're not getting one. Also see the next statement.

"Manufacturing of the old product has been reduced, but not eliminated" --> the old product had so many problems, we couldn't eliminate its production like we wanted. There wasn't enough existing product to use as replacements. And boy do we need the replacements.

"We will have a solution" --> we screwed up royally, but don't expect a fix anytime soon.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

There has been many of cases in my career... where I have helped customers that thought they were right, to find out that their idea of "right" wasn't always right.

And helped not spend their money in ways that would ultimately not achieve their goals.... So while I do think like an engineer.... that is not always bad.

As for your translation of statements:
To Each.. Their Own...


As a MOD... To recap:
As of today:
1) HR20-100 is still being produced
2) DirecTV is making necessary arangements to make sure they have stock available for HR20->HR20 replacements
3) HR21-700 does not have OTA support
4) DirecTV has stated they will have an OTA solution, but has not stated when.


----------



## Blitz68

Earl Bonovich said:


> 4) DirecTV has stated they will have an OTA solution, but has not stated when.


Or what.


----------



## fhedrick

Can anyone suggest a solution for a problem with the HR20-100 and some OTA channels? On 11-1, approximately every 10 seconds the signal drops quickly to 0, then comes right back, causing breakup in the picture. It occasionally occurs on 39-1, but never on the other OTA channels. I don't have this problem on my HR10-250. Thanks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

fhedrick said:


> Can anyone suggest a solution for a problem with the HR20-100 and some OTA channels? On 11-1, approximately every 10 seconds the signal drops quickly to 0, then comes right back, causing breakup in the picture. It occasionally occurs on 39-1, but never on the other OTA channels. I don't have this problem on my HR10-250. Thanks.


What are the actual broadcast frequencies for those channels.

As the scenerio you pose, shows that there is some sort of intermintent interference... similar to what I get on VHF-3 when my son's computer is plugged in.


----------



## fhedrick

11-1 is on channel 31. 39-1 is on channel 38, but I don't know the frequencies off hand.


----------



## randyk47

JWD - What I meant was that they're only installing Slimlines now, you don't pick between an AT9 and an AU9. And even given the chance that there are installers out there with the older 5LNB it's still a 5LNB. That's pretty darn simple....you need a dish, you order a dish, they don't have to make a choice, and they can't even get that right. Now we want to strain them with getting the right model DVR. Gads.


----------



## gpg

News from the other site:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv-forum/114107-hr21-get-ota-tuner.html


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gpg said:


> News from the other site:
> 
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv-forum/114107-hr21-get-ota-tuner.html


That is the previously mentioned "rumor" of what will/when be available.


----------



## bobnielsen

I now have my networked dual-tuner HDHomerun running with EyeTV on my Mac Mini (software is also available for Windows and Linux). When the HR21 supports video in Media Share I will at least be able to watch recorded OTA programs using EyeConnect. This is a 1.42 GHz G4 mini and doesn't have the horsepower to decode live HD very well, but I played a recording through my HR20 (latest CE) and it looked great.


----------



## fhedrick

Earl Bonovich said:


> What are the actual broadcast frequencies for those channels.
> 
> As the scenerio you pose, shows that there is some sort of intermintent interference... similar to what I get on VHF-3 when my son's computer is plugged in.


Thanks for the suggestions. It's not my computer or a ceiling fan or any audio component. Looking for other possibilities.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So now D* has to spend yet more money to come up with an OTA solution when they could have just put OTA tuners in the HR21 from the get and saved money in the long run.  

So will this OTA solution come with the HR21's, or is this something that the costumer is going to have to buy, or will D* provide them for free?


----------



## RobertE

theratpatrol said:


> So now D* has to spend yet more money to come up with an OTA solution when they could have just put OTA tuners in the HR21 from the get and saved money in the long run.
> 
> So will this OTA solution come with the HR21's, or is this something that the costumer is going to have to buy, or will D* provide them for free?


Then why even bother? Just keep the -100 & -700 20 line running.

It's all about cost savings. If the number of OTA/HR users nation wide are at the same ratio that I see daily, then they are saving truckloads of money by pulling out the OTA tuners.


----------



## nuke

I strongly doubt D* are going to be supplying USB ATSC tuners to anyone, ever.

The solution is, "You'll be happy with what we give you!" and then they will remove the guide data for OTA locals, so the HR20 and HR21 become equivalent, feature for feature.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bobcamp1 said:


> That's the problem here. I live in a top 100 DMA. DirecTV offers no local HD channels. Then why are they even selling the HR21 here? They don't think people won't want to watch the top four rated channels in the country? Why is it the nearest Best Buy that has an HR20 is 150 miles away?
> 
> Why is it DirecTV (and the moderators of this forum, who I've liked up until this point) insist that OTA is a POS? They have forgotten the golden rules of sales:
> 
> 1. The customer is always right.
> 2. When the customer is wrong, see rule #1.
> 
> The title of this thread is unacceptable. It should state "We already have a solution -- just ask for it". The solution had to be released the same time as the HR21 if they were going to recall all the HR20s. And why recall the HR20s in areas where you don't even provide LiLs? The HR21 rollout has been bungled badly. And the holiday shopping season is right around the corner. I was thinking about upgrading to HD DirecTV next month, but not anymore.
> 
> I'm seriously looking at Dish now. And that is what I think the OTA solution is.


As one might imagine, I'm rather disappointed by this post (and subsequent follow-up by bobcamp1.

I've strenuously defended the need for OTA as have Doug, Earl, Stuart, etc.

I went so far as to ask DIRECTV for a quote I could take to us. DIRECTV provided.

DIRECTV is still making HR20s (yes, just the -100) and is actively working on a solution for the HR21s. Sadly said solution is not ready today.

So hardly is ANYONE from your list calling OTA POS or that the customer is wrong about OTA. We're all fully embracing OTA.

Regards,
Tom


----------



## fhedrick

Tom Robertson said:


> As one might imagine, I'm rather disappointed by this post (and subsequent follow-up by bobcamp1.
> 
> I've strenuously defended the need for OTA as have Doug, Earl, Stuart, etc.
> 
> I went so far as to ask DIRECTV for a quote I could take to us. DIRECTV provided.
> 
> DIRECTV is still making HR20s (yes, just the -100) and is actively working on a solution for the HR21s. Sadly said solution is not ready today.
> 
> So hardly is ANYONE from your list calling OTA POS or that the customer is wrong about OTA. We're all fully embracing OTA.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom


But, Tom, you've got to admit that D* has a problem which could be solved by sending customers who want OTA the HR20 and the HR21 to those who don't. Their refusal to give the customer what they ask for is foolish. I like the HR20 very much but there are some issues I would like to see corrected. Also my HR10 may need to be replaced soon, but I want OTA and am not assured of getting it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

fhedrick said:


> But, Tom, you've got to admit that D* has a problem which could be solved by sending customers who want OTA the HR20 and the HR21 to those who don't. Their refusal to give the customer what they ask for is foolish. I like the HR20 very much but there are some issues I would like to see corrected. Also my HR10 may need to be replaced soon, but I want OTA and am not assured of getting it.


I don't consider it a "refusal" _per se_, but rather an inadequate system for order entry and fulfillment. DIRECTV has never had to maintain stock based on a particular receiver model.

I've suggested here that perhaps they need to add a new order type beyond the basic 4 they have today: SD receiver, SD DVR, HD receiver, HD DVR. By adding HD OTA and HD OTA DVR, they could stock and deliver. Tho who knows how easy or hard it is to add two new designations to their systems.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RobertE

One also needs to take into account that it is not only D* that would need to update there ordering and inventory systems, but all the HSPs and other installation operations nationwide. Not a small task by any means.


----------



## Robert L

I probably wouldn't mind about all this if Directv had HD locals where were I watch the most, but they don't. But having said that, I recently had a chance to watch the HD LIL's from Charlotte, NC and they aren't very good. I've watched NBC a good bit and Hero's was basically a artifact micro blocking mess, especially in dark scenes. Clay faces and all that stuff. ABC isn't much better. 

So, I'd heard they vary from one market to another, but anyone that says those channels are equal to OTA are crazy. Well, ok, where I was watching this at they cannot get the same OTA channels. But they are getting the DNS still. While the Mpeg4 doesn't have as much noise, I rather have that than what I see from LIL. But even if they could get them OTA to compare, no way they would look the same Directv is showing. It was very easy to see the screwed up compression with the Mpeg4, OTA would not look that way. 

I'm sure they might look better on a smaller screen since it was a projector I was watching, but a bad picture is a bad picture. I don't what other people in the Charlotte area thinks of those LIL HD channels, but I know what I think of them. CBS seems to be ok though. 

Anyway, if that's the way HD LIL looked where I watch most times, I'd want OTA no matter how much trouble a antenna was. I really hope they all don't look like that. The national Mpeg4 doesn't. 

Well, I'm sure for Directv's bottom line it will be better dropping OTA tuners, but it was handled in a stupid way, regardless of how anyone might try to spin it.


----------



## randyk47

Interesting situation last night here while watching NCIS and then the Unit. We started NCIS and the sound kept cutting in and out. That cleared up for a bit and then started again with the Unit. I finally switched from the LIL feed to our OTA HD feed. Problem cleared up immediately and watched the remainder of the evening through OTA. It doesn't happen often but this is not the first time we've experienced some kind of up link/down link audio problem via the LIL. We have 90+ signal strength on 103a so I don't think that's the problem and it doesn't appear to be weather connected.


----------



## ebockelman

hasan said:


> Maybe if you read the entire thread, you'd get an inkling? If you read the entire thread and still don't understand what the "big deal" is, get back to us. This thing has been beaten to death from all sorts of angles....to maintain that you "don't see the big deal here", in the face of all the discussion, either means there is a reading comprehension problem, or we have yet another troll.
> 
> Your suggestion has been discussed, (in multiple threads), so I'm not going to restart what has become a tedious (at best) series of arguments. If you "don't get it" after reading what has already been written, then you aren't going to get it by rehashing all this stuff all over again (again).


Wow, somebody has a sore spot. You clearly have an emotional interest in future Directv products having OTA support. That's fine, but would you care to discuss this thing rationally instead of continuing with the childish insults? :nono2:

Anyway, I have read the thread. The amount of "uproar" seem unwarranted (in case you are having trouble following along - that's the part I "don't get"). Directv has stated that they are working on a solution. A separate solution already exists in the HR-20. And *even if* the OTA solution goes away, there are other options.

In other words, there will always be a way to timeshift OTA. It's not worth getting so upset over. Life's too short.


----------



## Herdfan

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't consider it a "refusal" _per se_, but rather an inadequate system for order entry and fulfillment. DIRECTV has never had to maintain stock based on a particular receiver model.


As for the inadequate system, wouldn't it be easier to correct this than engineer a solution for the HR21?


----------



## hasan

Whether the amount of uproar is warranted or not is a matter of opinion. Dismissing it as unwarranted is just what contributed to the "uproar" in the first place. Poor communication from D* further exacerbated the problem. Speaking of rationality, no reasonable person could read the threads (multiple) and not comprehend the source and "reasons" for the intense response to the previously "apparent" slippery slope of non-OTA support from D*. I say "previous", because now there is a "promised" solution to the OTA debacle.

When the discussion started as the HR21 showed up with no OTA tuner, we saw several people who should certainly know better trot out the following, literally or by dismissive implication: (in other words, the *perception was left that:*

1. It's not happening, don't panic

2. You don't really need it.

3. It's not happening, don't panic.

4. You only want it, your wants don't count for much, there are reasonable alternatives, you shouldn't even want it anymore, you're an insignificant minority.

5. It's not happening, don't over-react, it 's only a model addition.

6. You don't really need it, the advantages you list aren't real/credible.

7. It is happening (HR20-700 no longer being produced.) Get over it, the HR20-100 is still available to your unnecessary needs.

8. You don't really need it, and if you want it go find your own, and get credit from D* if you can.

9. You don't really need it, you're becoming a pain in the butt, go buy someone else's solution and leave us alone. (TIVO, etc)

10. After the "unwarranted" firestorm from a significant and vocal "we don't count" minority, we get the following:

"There will be a solution."

OK, I'll take D*'s word at face value. No sarcasm intended, I do believe what we have been told. It's just dumb as a box of rocks, that we had all this go on in the first place.

All of this could have been avoided if D* had bothered to "rationally" communicate to its customers. Instead we went through 1-10 above....and to top it off, someone then asks, "What's the Big Deal.?

Yeah, right.


----------



## Splendor

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I love everything about this post


----------



## mmarton

Hi everybody. New to the forum but lurking quite a while. 

I've been a D* customer for more than 10 years. Haven't made the jump to HD yet, but will likely stay with D*.

I'm not the most technical person so excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't a two-way splitter on the HR 21 work? One coax cable from the TV feeding a splitter to the tuner and the OTA antennae? Illuminate me. Thanks.


----------



## General Custer

What cracks me up about this whole situation is that this is something that a company that is out of touch with its customers would do. Given the fact that there is a close relationship with Directv and this website regarding the Cutting edge releases, you think they would have put out feelers prior to making this move. They have a life line to their (high end, tech-inclined) base right here and didn't use it. I'm not saying that they have to ask permission before they make a move, but there are ways to ascertain whether features are important without putting things to a vote on an open forum and exposing trade secrets. I think they would have figured out that OTA is important to a percentage of their customer base and it would have been suggested by many here to allow customers to requst an HR20 vs HR21 when they order. The problem would have been averted. This is clearly a communication failure that could have been aveted by the users here who would have predicted the uproar.


----------



## w6fxj

*"theratpatrol; So now D* has to spend yet more money to come up with an OTA solution when they could have just put OTA tuners in the HR21 from the get and saved money in the long run. . . " *

Because the HR21 IS an HR20 with the OTA tuners removed! They save the $5 ATSC licensing fee and the tuner and decoder chip costs. Like maybe $20 for each receiver. Let's hope the solution will be to restart the HR20 production and allow a choice between the two.


----------



## jeffmacguy

mmarton said:


> Hi everybody. New to the forum but lurking quite a while.
> 
> I've been a D* customer for more than 10 years. Haven't made the jump to HD yet, but will likely stay with D*.
> 
> I'm not the most technical person so excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't a two-way splitter on the HR 21 work? One coax cable from the TV feeding a splitter to the tuner and the OTA antennae? Illuminate me. Thanks.


The HR20 has an integrated ATSC tuner which allows Satellite AND OTA programs to be recorded. By removing the OTA tuner from the HR21, users can no longer record/pause OTA content.


----------



## Herdfan

w6fxj said:


> [ Let's hope the solution will be to restart the HR20 production and allow a choice between the two.


How many posts do we need to indicate the HR20-100 is still in production?

Distribution is the issue, not production.


----------



## gregftlaud

perhaps if dtv had the ability to see the big picture in regards to this matter they would have not put out the hr21 without ota in the first place! so who suffers....not dtv.....the customer. but hey....this is what happens when companies get to big for their britches. they lose site of number 1---the customer.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gregftlaud said:


> perhaps if dtv had the ability to see the big picture in regards to this matter they would have not put out the hr21 without ota in the first place! so who suffers....not dtv.....the customer. but hey....this is what happens when companies get to big for their britches. they lose site of number 1---the customer.


Sorry....

What if they do see the big picture, and the window that you are looking through is just part of the bigger picture.

The picture is so much bigger then just not having OTA in the latest receivers.

I am not suffering because of the loss of OTA in the HR21/H21
Am I not a customer?

But I am sure you all would have no problem complaining if DirecTV came out and they said they had to increase the prices, because they couldn't lower the cost to manufacture the unit....

Or I am sure a lot of you would complain even louder if the charge for the HR20 was $399 or $499 instead of $299 (or less)

The "picture" is so much bigger then just the one aspect.


----------



## Dusty

General Custer said:


> What cracks me up about this whole situation is that this is something that a company that is out of touch with its customers would do. Given the fact that there is a close relationship with Directv and this website regarding the Cutting edge releases, you think they would have put out feelers prior to making this move. They have a life line to their (high end, tech-inclined) base right here and didn't use it. I'm not saying that they have to ask permission before they make a move, but there are ways to ascertain whether features are important without putting things to a vote on an open forum and exposing trade secrets. I think they would have figured out that OTA is important to a percentage of their customer base and it would have been suggested by many here to allow customers to requst an HR20 vs HR21 when they order. The problem would have been averted. This is clearly a communication failure that could have been aveted by the users here who would have predicted the uproar.


I think there is a group in D*, most likely software engineering, that has a close pulse to this forum. I doubt the decision to remove OTA tuner can be directly influenced by this group.


----------



## Dusty

hasan said:


> Whether the amount of uproar is warranted or not is a matter of opinion. Dismissing it as unwarranted is just what contributed to the "uproar" in the first place. Poor communication from D* further exacerbated the problem. Speaking of rationality, no reasonable person could read the threads (multiple) and not comprehend the source and "reasons" for the intense response to the previously "apparent" slippery slope of non-OTA support from D*. I say "previous", because now there is a "promised" solution to the OTA debacle.


I doubt any of this uproar will change a thing. Losing customers or returning equipment cost rising to a level higher than the alleged $20 cost saving across the board will.


----------



## gregftlaud

Sorry Earl there but that first line of your respose to me makes no sense whatsoever. Seeing the big picture is seeing every window and every part. They are a corporation with paying customers. It is their job and their obligation to see the big picture.....in every way. Another thing some of you moderators get awfully defensive when someone complains about dtv. I mean do you get paid by them? Do you own like alot of stock from dtv or something. I know you are a beta tester but crap why so defensive.


----------



## Doug Brott

I'm sure that DIRECTV has a much better view of the big picture than any of us here do.


----------



## gregftlaud

Yah. The $$$$$$$$ picture.


----------



## Dusty

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sorry....
> 
> What if they do see the big picture, and the window that you are looking through is just part of the bigger picture.
> 
> The picture is so much bigger then just not having OTA in the latest receivers.
> 
> I am not suffering because of the loss of OTA in the HR21/H21
> Am I not a customer?
> 
> But I am sure you all would have no problem complaining if DirecTV came out and they said they had to increase the prices, because they couldn't lower the cost to manufacture the unit....
> 
> Or I am sure a lot of you would complain even louder if the charge for the HR20 was $399 or $499 instead of $299 (or less)
> 
> The "picture" is so much bigger then just the one aspect.


With all due respect, even if I do complain when the price rise to $399 (for the alleged $20 cost saving) I will still choose to pay $100 more to get OTA. It is rational consumer behaviors to want to pay less. But who buys HD to save money? If cost is the most important issue, we'd have stayed in SD, or grow a different hobby.

Continuing this logic, they can further reduce the HR22 to one tuner only. How often do we use both tuners? There is only limited impact. Besides, when you need more tuners, we can always buy more units. There is always a solution. Our individual needs is so much smaller than the big picture to reduce cost.

I certainly agree it is a popular corporate strategy to profit by cost cutting. But there are other strategies as well. Apple doesn't sell the cheapest computers but it has the highest growth among all vendors now. Personally, I don't think skimming on features fit D* very well. D* is clearly the leaders in sports, who probably spend more money on TV than other demographic group. Who buys Sunday Tickets because it's cheap?

Disclaimer: I am not affected by this now for I have enough HR20 at this point.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gregftlaud said:


> Sorry Earl there but that first line of your respose to me makes no sense whatsoever. Seeing the big picture is seeing every window and every part. They are a corporation with paying customers. It is their job and their obligation to see the big picture.....in every way. Another thing some of you moderators get awfully defensive when someone complains about dtv. I mean do you get paid by them? Do you own like alot of stock from dtv or something. I know you are a beta tester but crap why so defensive.


Oh for the love of.... This is just silly....

You say they need to look at the big picture... while you yourself are only looking at one part of the "BIG" picture....

All I say, is that the picture is much bigger then you may think... 
So I am sorry... that is not defensive... that is the simple facts of the issue.

I don't own a single share of stock of DTV (unless it is part of my 401k mutual funds, that I pay another company to manage).

Take a look at the mirror, before you start calling someone defensive.

Me being a moderator here, has 100% no difference on my opinion on the topic...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Dusty said:


> With all due respect, even if I do complain when the price rise to $399 (for the alleged $20 cost saving) I will still choose to pay $100 more to get OTA. It is rational consumer behaviors to want to pay less. But who buys HD to save money? If cost is the most important issue, we'd have stayed in SD, or grow a different hobby.
> 
> Continuing this logic, they can further reduce the HR22 to one tuner only. How often do we use both tuners? There is only limited impact. Besides, when you need more tuners, we can always buy more units. There is always a solution. Our individual needs is so much smaller than the big picture to reduce cost.
> 
> I certainly agree it is a popular corporate strategy to profit by cost cutting. But there are other strategies as well. Apple doesn't sell the cheapest computers but it has the highest growth among all vendors now. Personally, I don't think skimming on features fit D* very well. D* is clearly the leaders in sports, who probably spend more money on TV than other demographic group. Who buys Sunday Tickets because it's cheap?
> 
> Disclaimer: I am not affected by this now for I have enough HR20 at this point.


But what about all the people that don't want OTA, won't need OTA, and don't want to pay the $100 because OTA had to be in that system.

So again... back to "summary"

-) HR20-100 is still being produced, so if you must have OTA "today" then find yourself an HR20-100 (and hopefully DirecTV will update their systems so that if you want it, you don't have to jump through hoops)
-) HR21/21 don't have OTA today
-) DirecTV has stated that they will have a solution

That's it.....
If none of those three satisfy your needs.... then either wait till something changes, don't upgrade, or find a different carrier...

As for Apple... I firmly believe that when my Son gets to college, Apple will be discussed as one of the greatest MARKETTING companies in history, rather then a technology company.
That is the same company that builds the hype for the iPhone... charges an Arm and a Leg for it... the following week after it's release, they announce they are going to have a smaller one.
Then 10 weeks later slash the price... then after outrage provide a credit to purchase something else in there store....

But that is a topic for a different thread.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gregftlaud said:


> Yah. The $$$$$$$$ picture.


Last time I checked.... DirecTV is a company in business to make $$$...
Sorry if you thought other wise, but at the end of the day... it really is about the $$$... There is absolutely no mistake in that.


----------



## say-what

gregftlaud said:


> perhaps if dtv had the ability to see the big picture in regards to this matter they would have not put out the hr21 without ota in the first place! so who suffers....not dtv.....the customer. but hey....this is what happens when companies get to big for their britches. they lose site of number 1---the customer.


Big picture is that there is a portion of the customer base that doesn't want/need or can't get OTA and a portion of the customer base that wants/needs OTA. Both are covered and no one in the second group is left out or "harmed" by production of the HR21.


----------



## ebr

say-what said:


> Big picture is that there is a portion of the customer base that doesn't want/need or can't get OTA and a portion of the customer base that wants/needs OTA. Both are covered and no one in the second group is left out or "harmed" by production of the HR21.


Correct - and if one really were able to back up and see the true big picture I'm sure you'd see that the group that needs OTA is soooo much smaller than the one that doesn't that its just silly. But, they still are planning to support OTA.

I call that seeing the whole picture but seeing the true big picture will always, I repeat, always, mean you have to leave some part of that picture out in some way. There is no way to please everyone. So you do the best you can.

It cracks me up how big and important the tiny slice of the customer base that's out here thinks it is.

If every one of us needed OTA (and we don't - even amongst this group its a relatively small group) it would be a tiny bit of the customer base.


----------



## 69hokie

Why wasn't cost a concern when D* first added OTA to their receivers?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

69hokie said:


> Why wasn't cost a concern when D* first added OTA to their receivers?


When the first HD receivers were built... there was no HD-SAT distribution for Local channels... and the vast BULK of HD programming, was from local channels

When the fist HD-DVR Receiver was built (HR10-250), that fact still hadn't changed.

When the HR20 was originally designed with OTA, it was still a good year or two years away from larger penetration of SAT HD LiL...

Now that D10 is up and running.... D11 is close to launching, with D12 hanging out there... SAT HD LiL is far more prevalent.

Changes in the demand... Changes in the technology... Changes in the HD user base....

That is also why my SAT HD receiver, cost me $500 (and that was a great deal at the time)
That is also why my HR10-250 cost me $1000 when it was first released

Today's HD customer, doesn't want to pay $500/$1000 for their system.... They want it for $99/$299 or less..


----------



## 69hokie

I asked this once before....is the HR21/H21 a receiver that has some justification (ie cost), but also has leverage value to D* with the reluctant local network providers to get them to give them feeds? It seems to me that the convenience for the consumer of having the local networks available in the same box and not having to "adjust" televison inputs to view local channels has value to the local networks and that if D* is pushing primarilly a box that has no OTA tuner, that to keep their viewer ratings up that the local networks would feel compelled to provide their feeds to D* considering the new box has no OTA. Push mainly the HR21 and H21 long enough to pressure reluctant locals and then provide whatever the D* customer wants (HR20,H20,HR21, or H21) after successfully getting locals in the fold that were difficult before.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Last time I checked.... DirecTV is a company in business to make $$$...
> Sorry if you thought other wise, but at the end of the day... it really is about the $$$... There is absolutely no mistake in that.


Business Economics 101: What is the primary goal of every corporation?


----------



## bobnielsen

Earl Bonovich said:


> When the first HD receivers were built... there was no HD-SAT distribution for Local channels... and the vast BULK of HD programming, was from local channels
> 
> When the fist HD-DVR Receiver was built (HR10-250), that fact still hadn't changed.
> 
> When the HR20 was originally designed with OTA, it was still a good year or two years away from larger penetration of SAT HD LiL...


At the time the first HD receivers became available most HD sets were "HD-ready", requiring an external tuner for OTA. Now that is a rare exception.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bobnielsen said:


> At the time the first HD receivers became available most HD sets were "HD-ready", requiring an external tuner for OTA. Now that is a rare exception.


Very true...

All new TV's that come with a tuner, have to be ATSC compatible (over a certain size of course).

So that does also play into the equation as well.


----------



## GP245

This is all becoming all too tedious!

The bottom line is some people want/and or need O-T-A, and other don't.

Can't we all live in community that respects our neighbors?

Enough already!

DirecTV should find a way to deliver O-T-A capabilities to those who choose to have it.

Enough carping about if it's right, if it's wrong, if it's needed or an unnecessary expense.

Find something else to do with parochial narrow mindedness!

All of this, quite unfortunately smells of "Red State" vs. "Blue State."

Let's respect different thoughts and needs and put this to rest!

I fully realize that this is a forum where people share ideas, information and thoughts, but things have gotten out of hand.

Again, let's respect one another!

Please!


----------



## Doug Brott

GP245 said:


> DirecTV should find a way to deliver O-T-A capabilities to those who choose to have it.


Good point .. If you read the title of the thread it says "We Will Have a Solution," so it seems that DIRECTV agrees with you. Obviously timing could have been better, but this may simply be a factor of the demand outpacing the supply.


----------



## hasan

Bingo!...and a lack of communication from D* to their customers/potential customers.


----------



## RobertE

Here's $0.02 more for the pot.

This thread has devolved into a peeing match.

I'd like to see it closed until more information is available.


----------



## fhedrick

say-what said:


> Big picture is that there is a portion of the customer base that doesn't want/need or can't get OTA and a portion of the customer base that wants/needs OTA. Both are covered and no one in the second group is left out or "harmed" by production of the HR21.


except that D* refuses/can't send the unit the customer wants.


----------



## goober22

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...
> Now that D10 is up and running.... D11 is close to launching, with D12 hanging out there... SAT HD LiL is far more prevalent....


 But they are not there yet and therefore OTA should be an option, as it has been. We that need it, don't care about the ones that get HD LILs, because that is of no use to us that don't! I have no locals of any kind available on D*. If I could not have received HR20s, then I would not have signed up with them!



> Here's $0.02 more for the pot.
> 
> This thread has devolved into a peeing match.
> 
> I'd like to see it closed until more information is available.


Agreed! Those that have HD LILs seem to think its a non-issue. For use 140+ markets that don't currently get HD LILs (or any locals at all for me) then it's a big issue! I'm sure D* had good intentions and planned to have HD LILs up by now but they are not, therefore they need to provide a solution until since they have been with the HR20s. It should not be so hard to get an HR20 if you need one!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Earl Bonovich said:


> Very true...
> 
> All new TV's that come with a tuner, have to be ATSC compatible (over a certain size of course).
> 
> So that does also play into the equation as well.


Actually, all broadcast reception devices: TV of *all* sizes, VCRs, DVRs (with tuners), DVD recorders (with tuners), etc. must support ATSC as of March this year. At least all that are imported into the US or shipped between states. Existing stock could be sold with warning signs on display.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## fhedrick

goober22 said:


> But they are not there yet and therefore OTA should be an option, as it has been. We that need it, don't care about the ones that get HD LILs, because that is of no use to us that don't! I have no locals of any kind available on D*. If I could not have received HR20s, then I would not have signed up with them!
> 
> Agreed! Those that have HD LILs seem to think its a non-issue. For use 140+ markets that don't currently get HD LILs (or any locals at all for me) then it's a big issue! I'm sure D* had good intentions and planned to have HD LILs up by now but they are not, therefore they need to provide a solution until since they have been with the HR20s. It should not be so hard to get an HR20 if you need one!


I have 4 locals from D* but get 29 OTA. Why would I want to give up OTA?


----------



## Splendor

RobertE said:


> Here's $0.02 more for the pot.
> 
> This thread has devolved into a peeing match.
> 
> I'd like to see it closed until more information is available.


Maybe, you could just stop reading the thread. :shrug:


----------



## hasan

goober22 said:


> But they are not there yet and therefore OTA should be an option, as it has been. We that need it, don't care about the ones that get HD LILs, because that is of no use to us that don't! I have no locals of any kind available on D*. If I could not have received HR20s, then I would not have signed up with them!
> 
> Agreed! Those that have HD LILs seem to think its a non-issue. For use 140+ markets that don't currently get HD LILs (or any locals at all for me) then it's a big issue! I'm sure D* had good intentions and planned to have HD LILs up by now but they are not, therefore they need to provide a solution until since they have been with the HR20s. It should not be so hard to get an HR20 if you need one!


For the umpteenth time: HD-LIL is *not* a satisfactory solution to the OTA issue. HD-LIL does not address (for me):

1. Precip fade.
2. Sub-channel availability
3. PBS HD availability
4. Potential PQ Issues.

The real issue is *choice*. Those of us who have D* DVR OTA now, and for whom OTA was a significant factor when we got our HD-DVRs, have choice about our recording sources. We want that choice to continue.

D* *now* says they are going to preserve that choice. "There will be a solution.".

If they keep their word, there really isn't much more to discuss.

As far as a peeing contest goes, if those who persist in telling the pro-OTA contingent why they don't really need it would desist, maybe we could get the OTA'ers to wait patiently for D* to deliver on their promise. The one thing you can count on, the pro-OTA contingent is not going away, and will not be quiet about it. As long as people keep pulling their chains, they will respond. If you find that entertaining, please continue.

If we accept D* on their word, then the problem is in the process of being solved. Maybe we can leave well enough alone and see what comes down the pipe. I think that was the major purpose in the initialization of this thread. In that respect, it has failed miserably. (and that isn't the fault of the OP).

The whole think got off track and turned into a pro/anti/indifferent to OTA discussion, instead of the intended discussion of what the solution might be that D* is referring to.


----------



## fhedrick

hasan said:


> For the umpteenth time: HD-LIL is *not* a satisfactory solution to the OTA issue. HD-LIL does not address (for me):
> 
> 1. Precip fade.
> 2. Sub-channel availability
> 3. PBS HD availability
> 4. Potential PQ Issues.
> 
> The real issue is *choice*. Those of us who have D* DVR OTA now, and for whom OTA was a significant factor when we got our HD-DVRs, have choice about our recording sources. We want that choice to continue.
> 
> D* *now* says they are going to preserve that choice. "There will be a solution.".
> 
> If they keep their word, there really isn't much more to discuss.
> 
> As far as a peeing contest goes, if those who persist in telling the pro-OTA contingent why they don't really need it would desist, maybe we could get the OTA'ers to wait patiently for D* to deliver on their promise. The one thing you can count on, the pro-OTA contingent is not going away, and will not be quiet about it. As long as people keep pulling their chains, they will respond. If you find that entertaining, please continue.
> 
> If we accept D* on their word, then the problem is in the process of being solved. Maybe we can leave well enough alone and see what comes down the pipe. I think that was the major purpose in the initialization of this thread. In that respect, it has failed miserably. (and that isn't the fault of the OP).
> 
> The whole think got off track and turned into a pro/anti/indifferent to OTA discussion, instead of the intended discussion of what the solution might be that D* is referring to.


Amen


----------



## Incog-Neato

You want a good chuckle (just to break the ice a bit here). I wrote D* wanting a Hr20-100 or -700 to replace the HR21 they gave me and after about 12 messages back and forth just to see how far they would go to help a customer, this was one of the responses I got:



> Dear Mr. Ed,
> <clipped usual D* CSR drivel>
> 
> *Also, the two HD DVR's that you mentioned have the OTA jack on them, but they are not available for use. This option was discarded when the new MPEG-4 HD channels came out. *If you would like a further explanation, please call the number above. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.
> 
> Once again I would like to thank you for writing.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Chris F.
> ID#400604
> DIRECTV Customer Service


----------



## fhedrick

MisterEd said:


> You want a good chuckle (just to break the ice a bit here). I wrote D* wanting a Hr20-100 or -700 to replace the HR21 they gave me and after about 12 messages back and forth just to see how far they would go to help a customer, this was one of the responses I got:


Incredible!


----------



## RobertE

Splendor said:


> Maybe, you could just stop reading the thread. :shrug:


Nah, I'll keep reading this thread, thank you very much. Too much entertainment watching people get their panties in a knot over what is essentally a non-issue. HR20s are available (granted, it may be a PITA to get one, which blame can be placed on D*) and ther will be a solution of some sort for the HR21s.

Watch out for those black vans down your street and the black slient heilcopters circling above. :lol:


----------



## dreadlk

This thread is really getting huge! If Directv really wants to put this issue to rest all they need to do is let people know what kind of OTA solution they are coming with and an aprox time for it's release. 

So long as they remain silent it makes people wonder and speculate. I personaly have no doubts that they plan to do something, but I can understand some people being nervous that the solution might not be as seamless in implementation as it is for HR20 users, or that they might be waiting a long time for the fix. So D* why not just say something official and put peoples minds to rest?


----------



## hasan

RobertE said:


> Nah, I'll keep reading this thread, thank you very much. Too much entertainment watching people get their panties in a knot over what is essentally a non-issue. HR20s are available (granted, it may be a PITA to get one, which blame can be placed on D*) and ther will be a solution of some sort for the HR21s.
> 
> Watch out for those black vans down your street and the black slient heilcopters circling above. :lol:


Spoken like a true agent provocateur ...ya just had to take that last shot, didn't ya?

We are hoping it will be "essentially" a non-issue. So let's stop trying to stir up the natives, eh? It's not like the thread is lacking passion or anything .:lol:


----------



## ebr

hasan said:


> ...As far as a peeing contest goes, if those who persist in telling the pro-OTA contingent why they don't really need it would desist, maybe we could get the OTA'ers to wait patiently for D* to deliver on their promise.


Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone telling anyone else that they don't need OTA.

The point that I've tried to make (and many others to no avail) is that, from D* perspective, the ones who need it are very small in relation to the one's that don't.

Therefore, they made a business decision to eliminate OTA as a default - and save money. Maybe timing was bad but that is the fact.

Everytime we try to make this point - the OTA crowd jumps up and down and tells us that we are full of bunk, are against them, and are telling them what they should want/need. But that is not the case. At least not my intention nor have I picked it up from any of the mods or anyone else.


----------



## kristina

MisterEd said:


> You want a good chuckle (just to break the ice a bit here). I wrote D* wanting a Hr20-100 or -700 to replace the HR21 they gave me and after about 12 messages back and forth just to see how far they would go to help a customer, this was one of the responses I got:


Awesome.

Today a CSR told me that the HR21 was not available yet when I requested an HR20.


----------



## fhedrick

D* originally provided OTA to compete with cable which usually provided all the local channels. Just because D* added most of the locals in SD doesn't change the fact that if anyone wants all the local DT channels they have to have OTA. Why can't you accept that everyone is not happy with limited local HD? What's wrong with wanting to continue with what we have become accustomed?


----------



## hasan

ebr said:


> Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone telling anyone else that they don't need OTA.
> 
> The point that I've tried to make (and many others to no avail) is that, from D* perspective, the ones who need it are very small in relation to the one's that don't.
> 
> Therefore, they made a business decision to eliminate OTA as a default - and save money. Maybe timing was bad but that is the fact.
> 
> Everytime we try to make this point - the OTA crowd jumps up and down and tells us that we are full of bunk, are against them, and are telling them what they should want/need. But that is not the case. At least not my intention nor have I picked it up from any of the mods or anyone else.


I won't dispute your intentions. If you haven't picked up the rationalizations for not keeping OTA that have nothing to do with "business" that have been put forth, then you just missed them....I mean you really missed them. I listed some of them in some of my earlier posts. I didn't just imagine them. There have been many threads and only a few of them centered on the "business" issue.

Further, we have *no idea* what D* did or didn't decide...they haven't made any statement. Lots of people are trying to speak for D*, with no authority to do so.

Interestingly, if it's such a simple cut and dried business decision, why oh why do we have the retreat to "There will be a solution". First it was denial, then it was, you don't need it, then it was, "there will be a solution". D* blew it. They should have said (if it were really their intention all along) the following: "We are decreasing our emphasis on OTA with some of our base model receivers. If you have need of OTA, we currently have one model that is in short supply and are working on a longer term solution for the HR21 series."

D* has shown ZERO commitment to current customers who want/need OTA. They could provide a choice. They have chosen not to do so. They promise something for the future and that is good.

All they have to do is *communicate* their intentions. All they need do is give consumers the choice. They are getting there, but they are hopelessly incompetent at communicating same, with no company statement, just one person who got permission to say something to the dbstalk community. It's better than nothing, but it makes D* look like a chump shop when it comes to communication with their customers.

The fact is, this whole business has been badly mishandled. The CSRs give out bad info, people here speculate and jump to conclusions, and then when one person speaks authoritatively on "there will be a solution", it degenerates into the same old crap. That was my point.

Denying what has taken place is no solution.


----------



## rbean

GP245 said:


> This is all becoming all too tedious!
> 
> The bottom line is some people want/and or need O-T-A, and other don't.
> 
> Can't we all live in community that respects our neighbors?
> 
> Enough already!
> 
> DirecTV should find a way to deliver O-T-A capabilities to those who choose to have it.
> 
> Enough carping about if it's right, if it's wrong, if it's needed or an unnecessary expense.
> 
> Find something else to do with parochial narrow mindedness!
> 
> All of this, quite unfortunately smells of "Red State" vs. "Blue State."
> 
> Let's respect different thoughts and needs and put this to rest!
> 
> I fully realize that this is a forum where people share ideas, information and thoughts, but things have gotten out of hand.
> 
> Again, let's respect one another!
> 
> Please!


How does this go? Can't we all just get along? NO! Never have, never will. Good stimulating disagreement is good. A good disagreement clears the air and gets all view points out there, just as long as you agree with me in the end.


----------



## Herdfan

One of these days something a CSR either writes or says is going to get D* sued. Think about the HDNet suit where the CSR allegedly says "the HD Extra pak only has channels nobody watches anyway".

As much as I dislike overseas tech support, I can't see an Indian CSR coming up with half the stuff US CSR's do.



> Dear Mr. Ed,
> <clipped usual D* CSR drivel>
> 
> Also, the two HD DVR's that you mentioned have the OTA jack on them, but they are not available for use. This option was discarded when the new MPEG-4 HD channels came out. If you would like a further explanation, please call the number above. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.
> 
> Once again I would like to thank you for writing.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Chris F.
> ID#400604
> DIRECTV Customer Service


----------



## 2Guysfootball

Oh well unless they come up with a solution looks like I be going without a DVR this Christmas. CBS AND FOX both LIN so I really think I am out of luck.


----------



## nexus7

ebr said:


> ...The point that I've tried to make (and many others to no avail) is that, from D* perspective, the ones who need it are very small in relation to the one's that don't...


I know I'm late to the party and a newbie here--and I am in no way singling out ebr, but with all due respect, where are the independently verifiable facts to back this statement up? Is it just "the fact" that since DirecTV did it, it must be true? Seems rationalized and circular to me.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dreadlk said:


> This thread is really getting huge! If Directv really wants to put this issue to rest all they need to do is let people know what kind of OTA solution they are coming with and an aprox time for it's release.


Or we could just lock the thread, until we have more information about the solution.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

nexus7 said:


> I know I'm late to the party and a newbie here--and I am in no way singling out ebr, but with all due respect, where are the independently verifiable facts to back this statement up? Is it just "the fact" that since DirecTV did it, it must be true? Seems rationalized and circular to me.


There are no verifiable facts for either side of the argument (the volume of people that need/want OTA vs those that don't need/want OTA)


----------



## 911medic

goober22 said:


> Those that have HD LILs seem to think its a non-issue.


I have HD LiL's (except for PBS, of course), and it's an issue for me.


----------



## bobinyuma

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or we could just lock the thread, until we have more information about the solution.


I believe this to be the best solution.......Lots of ranting going on. I would be also, but its not going to help. as of last Wed, since I lost my hr 20, No LiL in my DMA SD or HD. Both of my TV's have no ASTC tuner. Therefore no networks which was about 80 percent of what was watch. I though my wife would be mad, but she has been watching the spanish soaps all night, while my TV viewing has been limited. Directv has sounded sympathetic to my pleas, but all the CSR's seem to be powerless under their current directives that they cant dictate what gets sent out. My options, are get a new tv, buy a asct tuner (still no recordings though) or wait to see if Directv has a solution quick. Otherwise no superbowl, etc, etc, etc. You can only see the humor in it at this point


----------



## GP245

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or we could just lock the thread, until we have more information about the solution.


Amen!


----------



## RAD

All I know is as of right now it's kind of hard to recommend to someone in Austin market to go with D*. If D* has a process in place to say a HR20 is required it would be different but with the you get what's on the truck is not acceptable when our NBC affiliate is not on HD LIL service.


----------



## therocks

Hello all! I am a newbie here but have read a geat deal of helpful info here. I tried to have D* installed on 10/31 but the tech showed up with the HR21 when I had specifically noted on my work order that I was using OTA. He advised that his warehouse had no HR20s. After doing some legwork, I was able to speak with the warehouse manager and he advised he had no control over what receivers he was sent. He was not sure if he would ever get any HR20s again. He also advised that he received new shipments on Mondays and that I was welcome to call and ask for him so he could tell me if he received any HR20s. As luck would have it, I called again on 11/13 and the warehouse manager advised he received 2 pallets of HR20s on 11/12. I then scheduled another install for 11/17.

It appears that the HR20 has survived the rollout of the HR21.


----------



## VLaslow

therocks said:


> Hello all! I am a newbie here but have read a geat deal of helpful info here. I tried to have D* installed on 10/31 but the tech showed up with the HR21 when I had specifically noted on my work order that I was using OTA. He advised that his warehouse had no HR20s. After doing some legwork, I was able to speak with the warehouse manager and he advised he had no control over what receivers he was sent. He was not sure if he would ever get any HR20s again. He also advised that he received new shipments on Mondays and that I was welcome to call and ask for him so he could tell me if he received any HR20s. As luck would have it, I called again on 11/13 and the warehouse manager advised he received 2 pallets of HR20s on 11/12. I then scheduled another install for 11/17.
> 
> It appears that the HR20 has survived the rollout of the HR21.


Great opportunity for you. Enjoy!

:welcome_s


----------



## Splendor

Earl Bonovich said:


> There are no verifiable facts for either side of the argument (the volume of people that need/want OTA vs those that don't need/want OTA)


I think there are some facts...

1. The HR21 has been introduced

2. The HR21 does not have OTA capability

3. D* cannot currently guarantee that anyone upgrading to an HD DVR will receive an IRD with OTA capability.

Are any of those incorrect?


----------



## Carl Spock

Let therocks story be an example to all of the "D* doesn't support OTA" crowd.

Just because the glass is empty doesn't mean the cow has stopped making milk.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Splendor said:


> I think there are some facts...
> 
> 1. The HR21 has been introduced
> 
> 2. The HR21 does not have OTA capability
> 
> 3. D* cannot currently guarantee that anyone upgrading to an HD DVR will receive an IRD with OTA capability.
> 
> Are any of those incorrect?


Your three points are valid, and correct.

But re-read my comment that you quoted...

The "facts" I am referring to, is the volume/impact of actual customers that need/want OTA.

There are no facts for either side of that particular aspect of this discussion.


----------



## Splendor

Earl Bonovich said:
 

> Your three points are valid, and correct.
> 
> But re-read my comment that you quoted...
> 
> The "facts" I am referring to, is the volume/impact of actual customers that need/want OTA.
> 
> There are no facts for either side of that particular aspect of this discussion.


Nope. Those are facts too. We just don't know the actual numbers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Splendor said:


> Nope. Those are facts too. We just don't know the actual numbers.


Huh?

Never said they were not (and in fact did say they were).

But they still don't address the "fact" of how much demand for OTA is out there, based amongst the entire spectrum of DirecTV customers.


----------



## tuff bob

Earl Bonovich said:


> There are no facts for either side of that particular aspect of this discussion.


that seems off topic. I don't know why DirecTV can't manufacture X number of HR20's to keep around and then sell them for $100 more on their website. Ok, we'll ***** and moan about the extra $100, but then for the people that WANT them, can get them.

I also wonder about the HR10-250 "upgrades" to a DVR without OTA. Wonder how the people using the OTA that then lose "locals HD" feel about that.


----------



## bobcamp1

ggergm said:


> Let therocks story be an example to all of the "D* doesn't support OTA" crowd.
> 
> Just because the glass is empty doesn't mean the cow has stopped making milk.


It's a bad example. He had to perform extra legwork on his own to get it. Doesn't sound like "support" to me. Sounds like it WAS supported, but the support has been dropped. It will be supported again in the future, but not right now.

Why didn't DirecTV fix the ordering system first? They really didn't think anyone would miss the ability to record local channels? The HR21 makes sense as long as I can still easily get the HR20. And I shouldn't have to call around, ask to speak to managers, and ask various places if they really have it or not. If you're going to make a new product that might not work well in certain markets, then fix your ordering system BEFORE you rollout the new product. Especially just before the holiday shopping season, when people may be buying their first HDTV and may want to upgrade their DirecTV service to HD.

I hope the HR21 solution isn't a USB external tuner, those things are unreliable and the good ones cost a lot of money. They announced that they'll have a solution -- they didn't say if it was a GOOD solution.

But I don't think it's a dongle of any kind. They'll just launch more satellites and add more DMAs to the satellites. No subchannels, PBS, or minor networks until the FCC gets involved.


----------



## EarthbndMisfit

Another newbie chiming in. I got the word that my HR10 would not support the new HD channels. "You need to upgrade to an HR21". The keyword being 'upgrade'. I agree to pay the cost of the upgrade, discounted after I whined alot, because I wanted the extra HD. Who doesn't? The installer shows up and says the new box has no OTA connection. He guesses I'll have to hook the antenna up directly to the TV. Well, that's all well and good, but now I can't record OTA in HD. What's the sense? The big mistake by D* is not advising customers that the upgrade has a possible downside. Now I wait to see what the solution is as well.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

EarthbndMisfit said:


> Another newbie chiming in. I got the word that my H10 would not support the new HD channels. "You need to upgrade to an H21". The keyword being 'upgrade'. I agree to pay the cost of the upgrade, discounted after I whined alot, because I wanted the extra HD. Who doesn't? The installer shows up and says the new box has no OTA connection. He guesses I'll have to hook the antenna up directly to the TV. Well, that's all well and good, but now I can't record OTA in HD. What's the sense? The big mistake by D* is not advising customers that the upgrade has a possible downside. Now I wait to see what the solution is as well.


I guess you are referring to the HR10, not the H10... and the HR20, not the H20


----------



## kristina

EarthbndMisfit said:


> Another newbie chiming in. I got the word that my H10 would not support the new HD channels. "You need to upgrade to an H21". The keyword being 'upgrade'. I agree to pay the cost of the upgrade, discounted after I whined alot, because I wanted the extra HD. Who doesn't? The installer shows up and says the new box has no OTA connection. He guesses I'll have to hook the antenna up directly to the TV. Well, that's all well and good, but now I can't record OTA in HD. What's the sense? The big mistake by D* is not advising customers that the upgrade has a possible downside. Now I wait to see what the solution is as well.


I just am thankful that I discovered the HR21 OTA issue before placing my order. But the ONLY reason I did is that I read these forums, and spent a bunch of time doing research. But most people won't be doing that, and why should they? DirecTV says you need to "upgrade" to this box to get the new channels. Why shouldn't the customer trust that they will bring them a box that has the same basic functionality as their old one?


----------



## randyk47

I think it's also good to remember that this board in general represents a very, very small percentage of D* customers. I doubt seriously that there is the same level of knowledge in the general D* population. I'm not saying this is representative but a month ago when I was getting my Slimline put up two of my neighbors, also D* customers, asked me what service was I getting. Both of them have 3LNB dishes and their general attitude was "I'm getting a good picture so why change?" Neither has upgraded their TV's so the whole notion of HDTV was more or less along the lines of "oh yeah....when my TV breaks I guess that's what I'll buy." Again, whether or not they're typical, the point is that if D* offered them an upgrade they'd have absolutely no idea what to ask for or about.


----------



## Knon2000

To be honest, I am the only person that I personally know that uses OTA. Many of my friends are perfectly happy using their cable box, or Dish or DTV getting what they get.
I have several HR10's and HR20's and they are all connected to OTA, but only the main 2 HR20's even get any OTA content recorded, since the kids mainly like their cartoons and such. To be honest, if the need ever arises, I would switch out the HR10's to HR21's without any qualms since they don't get used for OTA anyway. 
Once they get out HD Lil's, I probably wouldn't be too worried about the others either. 
OTA is great during rain fade, or snowstorms, but that is pretty rare anyway where I live.
So, to sum this all up, I use OTA now, but once we get HD Lil's, I probably will switch my recording over to them assuming that we get the big 4, and the quality is good. If there is any content that I want to see from OTA, I can still see that with the tuners on the TV's. 
Now, if the quality leave something to be desired, all bets are off.


----------



## scrappy 2000

Earl Bonovich said:


> You honestly think that they just pulled OTA from their new box, without discussing what impact it would have?


I am sure they did, but they came up with a wrong conclusion, very wrong.


----------



## scrappy 2000

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because at $299, you were all ready paying "under" the cost of the unit.
> 
> And even when they remove the components, you are sitll paying "under" the cost of the unit.
> 
> So DirecTV is still taking a loss when the box is leased at $299.
> 
> It is a cost cutting step for DirecTV, not one to reduce the cost to the customers.


If what Earl is saying the cost for D* is more that $299. for an upgrad I think he is right counting paying for the install which includes dvr switch cables and paying for the installer and then paying for missed app. And this in not counting all the free dvr they give out , counting me for two dvrs, and many more for $100 and then replaceing units when thay die. If all thing are factered in they they are in the hole even at $299. Even if they save $10 per unit with no ota. I sumit that this is the worse way to same money. At the lease D* should be able to supply a HR 20-100 if a person requested one. If Earl is saying that D* is paying their supplier more than $300 per unit then they have made a very very bad contract with the supplier.


----------



## say-what

scrappy 2000 said:


> If what Earl is saying the cost for D* is more that $299.


No, what he is referring to is what DirecTV said during it's stockholder conference call - the cost to manufacture a HR20/21, including recoupment of research and development costs, is over $400. That is expected to drop as the production lines start cranking out more units next year.


----------



## Herdfan

bobinyuma said:


> My options, are get a new tv, buy a asct tuner (still no recordings though) or wait to see if Directv has a solution quick. Otherwise no superbowl, etc, etc, etc. You can only see the humor in it at this point


You have options and they are cheaper than a TV:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/DIRE...sem/rpsm/oid/159819/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/DirecTV/HR20-700-DirecTV-Hi-Def-MPEG4-HDTV-receiver.htm

As a matter of fact, the CC in Yuma also has it in stock. Since you are replacing a defective HR20, you may be able to get a credit or two from D*.


----------



## dreadlk

All true but people do notice when you take something from them. Just watch what happens when someone with an old Tivo style unit gets an HR21 and finds that there OTA is no longer there. I know people who won't even watch another NBC even if it's on the same time zone, reason, because they don't get there local news.



randyk47 said:


> I think it's also good to remember that this board in general represents a very, very small percentage of D* customers. I doubt seriously that there is the same level of knowledge in the general D* population. I'm not saying this is representative but a month ago when I was getting my Slimline put up two of my neighbors, also D* customers, asked me what service was I getting. Both of them have 3LNB dishes and their general attitude was "I'm getting a good picture so why change?" Neither has upgraded their TV's so the whole notion of HDTV was more or less along the lines of "oh yeah....when my TV breaks I guess that's what I'll buy." Again, whether or not they're typical, the point is that if D* offered them an upgrade they'd have absolutely no idea what to ask for or about.


----------



## Flyboy917

New to this thread and sorry haven't read all 600+ posts:
The installer came today with the new dish and HD DVR to replace my beloved 10-250. He looked at my Spawn 5x16 switch and told me that my OTA feed wouldn't work with the HR21 he had....blah blah...called his boss and told me they were not getting anymore HR20's. 
I have/ will have, 9 TV's, all of them have diplexed OTA for weather induced satellite outages.....not to mention the OTA HD local issue. I just built this house and pre-wired two quad shield lines to every room because I knew I could diplex OTA!!!!!! I guess I should have ran 3 quad shield lines....but who knew.
I canceled the install. D* is telling me they will credit me a slightly lesser $$ if I can still find a HR20, and they will install it w/ a new dish and switch. 
Is there ANY way to diplex OTA with the new system??? (sorry if it has been previously mentioned).


----------



## houskamp

Flyboy917 said:


> New to this thread and sorry haven't read all 600+ posts:
> The installer came today with the new dish and HD DVR to replace my beloved 10-250. He looked at my Spawn 5x16 switch and told me that my OTA feed wouldn't work with the HR21 he had....blah blah...called his boss and told me they were not getting anymore HR20's.
> I have/ will have, 9 TV's, all of them have diplexed OTA for weather induced satellite outages.....not to mention the OTA HD local issue. I just built this house and pre-wired two quad shield lines to every room because I knew I could diplex OTA!!!!!! I guess I should have ran 3 quad shield lines....but who knew.
> I canceled the install. D* is telling me they will credit me a slightly lesser $$ if I can still find a HR20, and they will install it w/ a new dish and switch.
> Is there ANY way to diplex OTA with the new system??? (sorry if it has been previously mentioned).


You will have to wait for SWM's to become availibe..


----------



## Herdfan

Flyboy917 said:


> Is there ANY way to diplex OTA with the new system??? (sorry if it has been previously mentioned).


There is a non-D* approved workaround: http://www.dbstalk.com/archive/index.php/t-101514.html

Or do a search for diplexing and BBC.


----------



## bobinyuma

Herdfan said:


> You have options and they are cheaper than a TV:
> 
> http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/DIRE...sem/rpsm/oid/159819/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
> 
> http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/DirecTV/HR20-700-DirecTV-Hi-Def-MPEG4-HDTV-receiver.htm
> 
> As a matter of fact, the CC in Yuma also has it in stock. Since you are replacing a defective HR20, you may be able to get a credit or two from D*.


Didnt think of that one.........thanks!!


----------



## Doug Brott

houskamp said:


> You will have to wait for SWM's to become availibe..


I could use one of these myself (SWM-8) .. I have to wait also :grin:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Just curious, has anyone heard what the official "solution" is yet?

Thanks


----------



## Doug Brott

I haven't, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has heard.


----------



## LameLefty

Doug Brott said:


> I could use one of these myself (SWM-8) .. I have to wait also :grin:


You and me both, brother.


----------



## Lord Vader

theratpatrol said:


> Just curious, has anyone heard what the official "solution" is yet?
> 
> Thanks


A Zenith TV and a set of rabbit ears.


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> A Zenith TV and a set of rabbit ears.


uh, right?


----------



## Lord Vader

What's wrong? You got a problem with Zenith?


----------



## billsharpe

theratpatrol said:


> Just curious, has anyone heard what the official "solution" is yet?
> 
> Thanks


This thread is titled "We will have a solution." Look for a topic that's titled "We have a solution," but don't hold your breath. 

Bill


----------



## loudo

After reading all of the no OTA threads for the HR21, I called D* to try to get a HR20. They told me they would sell me a HD DVR but couldn't guarantee it would be a HR20 or HR21. I would get what ever one the installing company had in stock. They suggested if I wanted a HR20 to purchase one locally. 

I went to 2 Best Buys, they had nothing but HR21s, then I visited Circuit City and got the last HR20 in stock. Glad I didn't wait any longer to buy it, or I would be out 26 OTA HD & digital channels.


----------



## loudo

Earl, they are not all HD, some are just digital. Actually we get 31 and I would be loosing 27, only 4 are available from D*. This is the Orlando market, in the Melbourne area. 
*Available HD & digital channels for the Melbourne area.*
2-1 * D
2-1 
6-1 *D
6-1
9-1 *D
9-2
15-1
15-2
15-3
15-4
18-1
24-1
24-2
24-3
24-4
24-5
26-1
27-1
35-1 *D
43-1
45-1
55-1
56-1
56-2
56-3
56-4
65-1
68-1
68-2
68-3
68-4


----------



## Earl Bonovich

loudo said:


> Earl, they are not all HD, some are just digital. Actually we get 31 and I would be loosing 27, only 4 are available from D*. This is the Orlando market, in the Melbourne area.
> *Available HD & digital channels for the Melbourne area.*
> 2-1 * D
> 2-1
> 6-1 *D
> 6-1
> 9-1 *D
> 9-2
> 15-1
> 15-2
> 15-3
> 15-4
> 18-1
> 24-1
> 24-2
> 24-3
> 24-4
> 24-5
> 26-1
> 27-1
> 35-1 *D
> 43-1
> 45-1
> 55-1
> 56-1
> 56-2
> 56-3
> 56-4
> 65-1
> 68-1
> 68-2
> 68-3
> 68-4


None of the -1 base channels are available as part of the SD locals in your area? They should be, because of Must Carry rules.

(And note... I deleted my reply he was referring to, as when I re-read his post, I realized he didn't mean 26 HD channels, but 26 Digital channels... with some carrying HD content)


----------



## loudo

Earl Bonovich said:


> None of the -1 base channels are available as part of the SD locals in your area? They should be, because of Must Carry rules.


In most cases each -X channel carries different programing, but one of them is usually carried on the analog SD channel. See screen capture below.


----------



## peters4n6

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but how is getting an SWM-8 going to be a solution for someone with an HR21? If there's no internal OTA tuner, one can't watch or record OTA, right?


----------



## Tom Robertson

You grasp the correct point. The SWM8 will distribute the OTA signal, but without the forthcoming solution, the HR21 will not be able to receive OTA.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

peters4n6 said:


> Perhaps I'm missing something here, but how is getting an SWM-8 going to be a solution for someone with an HR21? If there's no internal OTA tuner, one can't watch or record OTA, right?


The SWM is likely not the source of any OTA programming on the HR21. I haven't been told what it is, but the easy speculation is to say that it's a USB device attached to the back of the DVR with an OTA coax connecting directly to that USB device. I suspect that it would take two of these devices and a splitter to get dual OTA, but the module could in fact just come in a two-tuner model .. again, I have no clue what the solution will actually be.

The Operating system on the HR21s is Linux 2.6 and I know that there are third-party companies that make device drivers for their USB ATSC tuners. So, DIRECTV could take a component that is nearly off-the-shelf and accomodate OTA recording on the HR21.

If it were me, I'd license the technology and create a proprietary device that has some sort of DIRECTV branding. I can't imagine any of the potential providers not being enthusiastic because the potential number of customers is in the millions with much less distribution overhead.


----------



## bhelton71

Tom Robertson said:


> You grasp the correct point. The SWM8 will distribute the OTA signal, but without the forthcoming solution, the HR21 will not be able to receive OTA.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


Ok Tom - not trying to pull a Tomas Torquemada on you - but now you are hinting again.

So "IF" the SWM going to distribute OTA - I am lost on what means exactly. We all agree the HR21 lacks the ability to demodulate 8VSB. I am assuming that the only demodulators in the HR21 are for satellite signal. So does that mean some as yet unknown device is putting an mpeg-ts directly on the line ?


----------



## Tom Robertson

bhelton71 said:


> Ok Tom - not trying to pull a Tomas Torquemada on you - but now you are hinting again.
> 
> So "IF" the SWM going to distribute OTA - I am lost on what means exactly. We all agree the HR21 lacks the ability to demodulate 8VSB. I am assuming that the only demodulators in the HR21 are for satellite signal. So does that mean some as yet unknown device is putting an mpeg-ts directly on the line ?


Sorry, I didn't mean that at all. The OTA solution will work with or without a SWM. Just pointing out that the SWM8 has an OTA port to simplify the diplexing but still won't get into the H21/HR21 without a tuning device of some form.

The way the SWM works is it can frequency shift a single transponder to a agreed upon frequency above the OTA range. So the OTA range can still be diplexed alongside the satellite frequencies. It doesn't do anything magical with the OTA signals (like it does with the satellite stuff.)

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## bhelton71

Tom Robertson said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean that at all. The OTA solution will work with or without a SWM. Just pointing out that the SWM8 has an OTA port to simplify the diplexing but still won't get into the H21/HR21 without a tuning device of some form.
> 
> The way the SWM works is it can frequency shift a single transponder to a agreed upon frequency above the OTA range. So the OTA range can still be diplexed alongside the satellite frequencies. It doesn't do anything magical with the OTA signals (like it does with the satellite stuff.)
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


Yes that makes more sense - the off air is delivered by inserting into SWM and then diplexing to unknown object x. I don't know how in the world I got the other notion.


----------



## jasonblair

Hi guys... My mom back in Terre Haute, IN has asked me about DirecTV, because she has come to visit me in the DC area, and loves my DVR. (HR-20.) Here's the thing... She NEEDS OTA capability because the local channels in Terre Haute (even the SD channels) are NOT provided by DirecTV. She cannot get distant network service because none of the stations will grant her a waiver. So OTA is MANDATORY for her.

She's 61 years old, and somewhat of a technophobe, so telling her to install an antenna on her roof (which she'd need from her distance), and teaching her how to switch inputs from the HR-21 to the internal ATSC tuner in her TV isn't really an option... Plus, she'd have no DVR capability on the OTA channels, right?!?!

From what I can gather, DirecTV is now sending only HR-21's? Even to people in markets like Terre Haute, where there is no alternative to OTA? What/when is this "solution" coming?

(I tried to read through this whole thread, but when you get to page 7 out of 27, you start to give up and just ask.)


----------



## Lord Vader

If you want to _*guarantee *_ she gets an HR20, which has OTA, then her best bet would be to purchase it retail (some stores still carry them ,as do legit sellers on ebay). Then DirecTV would issue her credits for the purchase price, which is usually around $200 or so, depending on where you get it.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So, anyone heard what the "solution" is yet and when will it be out?

Thanks


----------



## Tom Robertson

Yes. No.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom, You're a tease.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Thank you.


----------



## colts19

jasonblair said:


> Hi guys... My mom back in Terre Haute, IN has asked me about DirecTV, because she has come to visit me in the DC area, and loves my DVR. (HR-20.) Here's the thing... She NEEDS OTA capability because the local channels in Terre Haute (even the SD channels) are NOT provided by DirecTV. She cannot get distant network service because none of the stations will grant her a waiver. So OTA is MANDATORY for her.
> 
> She's 61 years old, and somewhat of a technophobe, so telling her to install an antenna on her roof (which she'd need from her distance), and teaching her how to switch inputs from the HR-21 to the internal ATSC tuner in her TV isn't really an option... Plus, she'd have no DVR capability on the OTA channels, right?!?!
> 
> From what I can gather, DirecTV is now sending only HR-21's? Even to people in markets like Terre Haute, where there is no alternative to OTA? What/when is this "solution" coming?
> 
> (I tried to read through this whole thread, but when you get to page 7 out of 27, you start to give up and just ask.)


I saw your post about terre haute and thought I would just say hi. Im live in Terre Haute. You might suggest she (move) so she can get the indianapolis channels.


----------



## sholliday

colts19 said:


> I saw your post about terre haute and thought I would just say hi. Im live in Terre Haute. You might suggest she (move) so she can get the indianapolis channels.


I just went through this, and directv was no help.
I talked to him and gave them this metaphor.

You have a car. The dealer tells you to drop your old car, because they have a much much better car for you. You believe them, and get the new car.
The new car shows up and it doesn't have cruise control.
The dealer didn't tell you about the missing cruise control, they just assumed that because the car was new you wouldn't miss cruise control.
...Mr. CSR? Would you be happy with your new car if it didn't have cruise control? And you were used to having cruise control?

My metaphor was lost on the CSR.

However. I had a good ending. I got the local installer's number. I called them. I told them that I had an appointment in 2 days, and that if the installer showed up with anything but a HR20, I would not accept it. When asked why, I said I rely and use OTA. And that directv is NOT providing secondary channels.
(We have a FOX station here in Raleigh which is broadcasting RTN, which is a pretty neat retro station).

The guy was pretty nice, and he said the installer would show up with an HR20. I told him that I wasn't trying to be an butt, but that it was vital. I got his name, and said "Ok dude, if the guys shows up with an HR21, we're gonna call you".

The installer shows up, and he has an HR20. Stay Word!!

I helped the guy out, undid the old wires on the old dish and hooked up the HR20 while he was pointing the dish.

Everything worked out well, he said that was the quickest and easiest install he had ever done. I was so thankful for the HR20 that I didn't care about anything picky/anal details.

So I have OTA. And I have directv/locals. As I suspected, the secondary FOX station (50.2) was not available over sat, and the OTA got it in perfectly.

My feeling is that right now people are just a little ignorant about OTA and digital TV. But in Feb 2009, alot of people are going to be enlightened.

However, I have people at work that I have to preach to about how well OTA performs, and that if you're only interested in locals (and HD shows on locals), paying the SAT or cable company for those is nonsense.

I also purchased a TivoHD that I use exclusively for (locals) HD shows. This unit is ONLY hooked up to an OTA antenna, and nothing else.

Actually, this hybrid solution of TivoHD with OTA, and the HR20 gives me the best of both worlds. I'm getting used to the HR20, but its a learning curve, and ... (you've heard it all before so I won't bore you), its not a Tivo interface.

.......

Here is an interesting tidbit.

www_ntia_doc_gov/dtvcoupon/
(replace _ with .)


> Starting January 1, 2008, all U.S. households will be eligible to request up to two coupons, worth $40 each, to be used toward the purchase of up to two, digital-to-analog converter boxes. For more details on the federal regulations, including the budget information, please the DTV Converter Box Coupon Program Rules.


I'm wondering if directv has some kind of plan to tap into that "free" money. Well, the taxpayers money being redirected for $40/credits. Or if its possible for directv to tap into given the restrictions. (The intent of the credit seems to be to bail out people who are OTA only with analog tv's). But its an interest proposition for directv (or tivo or whoever) if they might be coming out with non OTA products so "add-ons" can be purchased later.

My personal opinion is that HR21 shouldn't be the only option. And as more an more people get enlightened about the free-ness and clarity of digital tv over OTA, I think it would be a big mistake to have a non-OTA solution only.

But getting an HR20 is a little difficult right now, but not impossible.

I don't know why they can't produce both, and simply ask "Do you have an antenna at your location?" or something.
Like my parents, they live in on the opposite side of a mountain 60 miles from DC, and they get NOTHING no OTA, maybe one PBS station or something. So they would be totally content with an HR21.

But I live 15 miles from the local tv towers, and in Raleigh/RDU NC, we're very lucky in that all stations except PBS come from the same tower-farm. Aka, one directional antenna gets the job done for you very well.

...........


----------



## ned23

The metaphor I used when I contacted DirecTv was: If you bought a refrigerator/freezer from Sears and it had to be replaced and they come out with a refrigerator without a freezer because they figured out no one uses the freezer anymore. 

I will find out what happens tomorrow. This will be my third try for hr20 install.


----------



## robnalex

FWIW, I just had a defective HR10-100 replaced last week. I asked the Rep to please stipulate or request an HR20 on the work order and the service tech showed up with an HR20-100. Maybe I just was lucky.


----------



## Doug Brott

robnalex said:


> FWIW, I just had a defective HR10-100 replaced last week. I asked the Rep to please stipulate or request an HR20 on the work order and the service tech showed up with an HR20-100. Maybe I just was lucky.


Hopefully this is a sign of getting HR20s replaced with HR20s ..


----------



## GP245

Doug Brott said:


> Hopefully this is a sign of getting HR20s replaced with HR20s ..


Doug, you admit to being "Goofy" - shall we add "Gullible'?


----------



## Doug Brott

GP245 said:


> Doug, you admit to being "Goofy" - shall we add "Gullible'?


If you wish


----------



## Maruuk

Count me as the latest victim. I thought the installer was kidding me. I ran around all morning to get a Terk clip-on, and he tells me there's no antenna input on the "new" units. I was sure he was ignorant or uninformed, or both. Well, he was pretty ignorant. But so is DTV when they fail to get us our locals, then bait and switch us with a significantly downgraded piece of hardware that can't even do :30 commercial skips!

I'd be on cable so fast if I had the option. 

Anyways on some other forum they mentioned that some company (they knew the name) was building an external USB tuner for the 21 to be out early next year. Duh. Like that would be a tough development job. Reverse engineer any of the 5 leading USB HDTV tuners on the market and slap your name on it.

I ordered an HR20, got a 21. Not what I ordered. Without the features I needed. DTV just slips em into the channel and hoped nobody'd notice! Sounds like a good class-action suit in the making.

In fact the only thing to prevent that is if they offer everyone who can't get local-into-local a free ext tuner. What's the in-house cost to DTV on those little pieces of junk...maybe $8 or $9 bucks?

Could DTV have possibly been dumber or more customer-abusing in this whole HR21 train wreck???


----------



## loudo

Maruuk said:


> I ordered an HR20, got a 21. Not what I ordered. Without the features I needed. DTV just slips em into the channel and hoped nobody'd notice! Sounds like a good class-action suit in the making.


How did you order a HR20? I tried to order one several weeks ago and DirecTV told me that the could not guarantee that I would get either a HR20 or HR21. I would get what ever the installing company had in stock. They also advised me if I wanted a HR20, the best thing for me to do was to go to BB, CC or any other retailer, that sells DirecTV equipment and purchase it myself. I did so and found the last HR20 in Central Florida at one of the CC stores.


----------



## Maruuk

I just ordered online..and SURPRISE! A decontented piece of crap.

From DTV: "HR21-ATSC SOLUTION Supply Chain and Engineering are working on an ATSC solution for the HR21. The solution will be external to the unit (not integrated) and is on target to be available in early 2008. Your voices have been heard and we will keep you posted on next steps and timing. Please contact your Director or Regional Vice President if you have any comments or concerns."


----------



## Doug Brott

Maruuk said:


> I just ordered online..and SURPRISE! A decontented piece of crap.
> 
> From DTV: "HR21-ATSC SOLUTION Supply Chain and Engineering are working on an ATSC solution for the HR21. The solution will be external to the unit (not integrated) and is on target to be available in early 2008. Your voices have been heard and we will keep you posted on next steps and timing. Please contact your Director or Regional Vice President if you have any comments or concerns."


There you go .. sounds like the question has been answered. While you cannot record, you can use the ATSC tuner in your TV until early 2008.


----------



## loudo

Maruuk said:


> I just ordered online..and SURPRISE! A decontented piece of crap."


If you mean you ordered it from the DirecTV web site, it doesn't state anywhere on their site what receiver you get, just refers to it as a *DIRECTV® Plus HD DVR. *


----------



## Maruuk

Well let's put it this way--the HR20 was established as the default Directv HD PVR and well known to contain an ATSC internal tuner. Customers ordering an HD PVR reasonably expected at LEAST that degree of utility for their $300. Then without any notice the scumbags slipped a decontented, downgraded unit into the pipeline and tried to pass it off as equivalent, charging the same amount. The talking points from the salespeople ran thusly (literally what I heard today):

"You don't NEED an OTA tuner anymore, Directv now brings you your local stations without it!"

Not in MY house. Bait and switch compounded by The Big Lie. That's how we ended up in Iraq.


----------



## hasan

Maruuk said:


> Well let's put it this way--the HR20 was established as the default Directv HD PVR and well known to contain an ATSC internal tuner. Customers ordering an HD PVR reasonably expected at LEAST that degree of utility for their $300. Then without any notice the scumbags slipped a decontented, downgraded unit into the pipeline and tried to pass it off as equivalent, charging the same amount. The talking points from the salespeople ran thusly (literally what I heard today):
> 
> "You don't NEED an OTA tuner anymore, Directv now brings you your local stations without it!"
> 
> Not in MY house. Bait and switch compounded by The Big Lie. That's how we ended up in Iraq.


As a big OTA advocate and user, let's just hope the "solution" works and is fully integrated. If so, I'll be perfectly happy.


----------



## j2fast

Doug Brott said:


> There you go .. sounds like the question has been answered. While you cannot record, you can use the ATSC tuner in your TV until early 2008.


I assume that this is answered some where in the 27 pages of this thread but my search-fu is weak this morning. Are you saying that even once there is an OTA solution for the HR21's you will not be able to record the OTA broadcasts??


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Not in MY house. Bait and switch compounded by The Big Lie. That's how we ended up in Iraq.


Can we not even remotely compare... the DirecTV ATSC situation.... to a situation that people's lives are being lost?

They are not even even in the same spectrum. And shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath let alone the same conversation.


----------



## joed32

Maruuk said:


> Count me as the latest victim. I thought the installer was kidding me. I ran around all morning to get a Terk clip-on, and he tells me there's no antenna input on the "new" units. I was sure he was ignorant or uninformed, or both. Well, he was pretty ignorant. But so is DTV when they fail to get us our locals, then bait and switch us with a significantly downgraded piece of hardware that can't even do :30 commercial skips!
> 
> I'd be on cable so fast if I had the option.
> 
> Anyways on some other forum they mentioned that some company (they knew the name) was building an external USB tuner for the 21 to be out early next year. Duh. Like that would be a tough development job. Reverse engineer any of the 5 leading USB HDTV tuners on the market and slap your name on it.
> 
> I ordered an HR20, got a 21. Not what I ordered. Without the features I needed. DTV just slips em into the channel and hoped nobody'd notice! Sounds like a good class-action suit in the making.
> 
> In fact the only thing to prevent that is if they offer everyone who can't get local-into-local a free ext tuner. What's the in-house cost to DTV on those little pieces of junk...maybe $8 or $9 bucks?
> 
> Could DTV have possibly been dumber or more customer-abusing in this whole HR21 train wreck???


Why can't you go to cable?


----------



## hasan

j2fast said:


> I assume that this is answered some where in the 27 pages of this thread but my search-fu is weak this morning. Are you saying that even once there is an OTA solution for the HR21's you will not be able to record the OTA broadcasts??


No, what he appears to be saying is *in the mean time* you can watch HD OTA on your HDTV's OTA tuner, assuming it has one.


----------



## hasan

joed32 said:


> Why can't you go to cable?


Some of us live out in the country where there are no cable lines, and where it is unlikely there ever will be, because of the low population density.

I suppose the next inane comment is "why can't you move to the city?".

Go figure.


----------



## mpaquette

hasan said:


> No, what he appears to be saying is *in the mean time* you can watch HD OTA on your HDTV's OTA tuner, assuming it has one.


I stopped into a local satellite installation company to inquire about the availability of an HR20 and that was basically their response. To which my response was; how am I supposed to DVR OTA if it only goes to the TV? Still waiting for the answer.


----------



## hasan

mpaquette said:


> I stopped into a local satellite installation company to inquire about the availability of an HR20 and that was basically their response. To which my response was; how am I supposed to DVR OTA if it only goes to the TV? Still waiting for the answer.


You're not supposed to be able to do that until they come out with the external HD OTA device. It's this simple: the HR21 series doesn't have OTA. The mystery solution will provide for it, and is supposedly integrated.

Given D*'s track record at communicating reliably to their customers, I'm in a wait and see mode. I'm hopeful, only because I want it so badly. If I were realistic, I'd regard *anything* D* communicates to us as "highly questionable", until such time as the promised features/programming/you name it actually show up.

I have a lot more trust in what Earl and Tom have to say, but even they are limited to their sources. Then again, their sources also appear to be *much /B] more accurate, more often than "official" D* sources, which have been abysmal.

Great hardware, great development, great programming, pathetic communication with customers. To my point of view, at least they got the most important parts right, but D* sure has made a habit of shooting itself in the foot. More's the pity.*


----------



## mpaquette

hasan said:


> You're not supposed to be able to do that until they come out with the external HD OTA device. It's this simple: the HR21 series doesn't have OTA. The mystery solution will provide for it, and is supposedly integrated.


I'm fine with that. In the meantime, I'll just pick up an HD Tivo for OTA purposes. When they come out with their integrated solution, the Tivo goes up on Ebay.


----------



## billsharpe

mpaquette said:


> I'm fine with that. In the meantime, I'll just pick up an HD Tivo for OTA purposes. When they come out with their integrated solution, the Tivo goes up on Ebay.


This thread started over five weeks ago. You'd think DirecTV would be willing to give us some clue as to what the solution will be by this time. Their time frame predictions seem to be worse than the airlines. I recall last Christmas seeing the TV ads saying "Coming soon -- more HD channels" It took nine months for that to happen.

Bill


----------



## davring

I was talking to a very informed tech today(they do exist), regarding my fathers H20 problems and he stated the reason for the tuners being dropped from the H20/HR20 is because of licensing fees to the ATSC developing commitee at near $100.00 per unit. He also said there will be a drop in the price of the HR21 to between $169.00 and $199.00 in the spring. A new ATSC tuner will be avaiable to share one of the sat in ports for around, you guessed it, $100.00.


----------



## litzdog911

davring said:


> .... licensing fees to the ATSC developing commitee at near $100.00 per unit. .....


That can't be true. You can buy ATSC-capable tuners for your PC or laptop for less than that.


----------



## davring

Apparently it will be incorporated in the HR's operation as it is now and able to be duplexed sat/OTA on the same feed. Would be smooth if someone needed it. I suuppose by lowering the price by $100.00 and charging extra for an optional tuner does make more sense. He stated only 8% of D* subs use OTA.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

litzdog911 said:


> That can't be true. You can buy ATSC-capable tuners for your PC or laptop for less than that.


Interesting because the one listed on the first page of this thread is $119.00.

Do you have links to any that are cheaper?

Thanks


----------



## davring

I think CompUSA had a Haupauge(sp) for around $80.00.


----------



## Ken S

davring said:


> I was talking to a very informed tech today(they do exist), regarding my fathers H20 problems and he stated the reason for the tuners being dropped from the H20/HR20 is because of licensing fees to the ATSC developing commitee at near $100.00 per unit. He also said there will be a drop in the price of the HR21 to between $169.00 and $199.00 in the spring. A new ATSC tuner will be avaiable to share one of the sat in ports for around, you guessed it, $100.00.


He's not that well informed. If you look back at the beginning of this thread you can find the licensing information. It was closer to $10/tuner if I recall.


----------



## Drew2k

theratpatrol said:


> Interesting because the one listed on the first page of this thread is $119.00.
> 
> Do you have links to any that are cheaper?
> 
> Thanks


Pinnacle makes PCI ATSC tuner cards being sold for $79 at Best Buy..


----------



## davring

Ken S said:


> He's not that well informed. If you look back at the beginning of this thread you can find the licensing information. It was closer to $10/tuner if I recall.


You may be right, I'm surely not going to take my conversation with the gentleman as gospel. What he said merely made more sense than what I have read in the past.


----------



## RobertE

Linky to Pinnacles USB ATSC tuner.

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/PCTV+Tuners/PCTV+Analog_Digital+PVR/PCTV+HD+Pro+Stick.htm

Listed @ $99.99. It also looks like its a SINGLE tuner.

So, if whatever is behind the magic curtain is a dual tuner widget, $100.00 seems to be a fair price.


----------



## Smuuth

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes. No.


Well, IF they need a CEer with an HR21 and an available OTA antenna connection to test it, I know where they could find one.


----------



## Phil T

Smuuth said:


> Well, IF they need a CEer with an HR21 and an available OTA antenna lead to test it, I know where they could find one.


Same here!!!


----------



## ned23

After the third appointment I finally got my HR20 by mistake! The Installer called me up and said he was on the way over. He informed me he had a receiver for me. I asked him if it was HR20, he said no it was the HR21, he hadn't seen an HR20 in over a month. I told him don't bother making the trip. He then checked again and to his surprise it was a an HR20!

Here is the interesting part of the install. He told me that he has installed 100's of receivers in my area, that he lives in my area, and has NEVER installed an off air antenna on any system he has installed, including his own.

He hooked up my new receiver and did the scan for locals. When he saw how many local digital channels that were added I think its about 15 channels he told me he is going to hook up an antenna to his hr20 this weekend.

Anyway, I am a happy camper for now. Thanks DirecTv. Hope everyone else that needs or wants OTA gets it too.


----------



## houskamp

Smuuth said:


> Well, IF they need a CEer with an HR21 and an available OTA antenna connection to test it, I know where they could find one.


And another one willing to test.. Or I will be towards the front of the line to buy one when it's availible..


----------



## flipptyfloppity

It would not be odd for the makers of these USB devices to fail to pay the ATSC fees. Also, if the HR20 has two tuners, it may pay twice as much.

But I have to say that putting ATSC tuners in TVs (now mandatory) didn't add $50 to the price of TVs, so I expect the fees are a lot less than $50/tuner.

I'll ask a guy at work who worked on an HD tuner box once and see if he knows.


----------



## Maruuk

Gotta love city folks who assume EVERYONE has access to cable and DSL and cable broadband and wireless broadband. Here in America, I have access to none of the above. Nor does DTV provide me with local HD service, or network HD service. Or now, even the ability to record OTA local HD.

It's perfectly valid to compare fraudulent practices for profit which result in large scale disasters.

Helpful hint: Ok, so you got duped like me and got yourself a Terk OTA clipon. In my case grabbed a used one from a local TV systems installer for $20. Then the installer tells you "Fahgedaboudit Pal! These new boxes don't support clipon OTA antennas!" So now you've got the clipon complete with on-board amp, but no way to power it since the old system let you hook it into the LNBs, etc. and used the HR20's power. Hopeless? 

I had the installer run a single coax back from the Terk. I tried it dry, it worked a little but not nearly enough. I had to power up the Terk amp somehow using just the single coax. So I call a bunch of Radio Shacks and the pidgin-English-speaking clerks haven't the slightest idea what I'm asking for. So I go down there and they continue their skeptical "I got no thingee like dat sur!" However, I buy one of their 12v inline antenna amps for $39, throw away the amp and just use the inline DC injector part. Bingo, all OTA HD stations are blastin!

Now Winegard makes just the DC injector for about $14 online but that would have taken me days to get, and I'm an instant grat guy. Bottom line is: DTV forces some of us to become guerrilla HD warriors to get our OTA HD. The few, the proud.


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, once DTV sells us HR21ers the external USB tuner dongle, we will be able to record that input. And for a lot of us, that'll be the only way we get any network HD to timeshift for a long time, if ever. God knows if they'll EVER settle with PBS, and that is some of the most elegant, beautiful programming there is in HD. 

You'd think after 14 years of lining up programming DTV might have a clue how to close? Nope.

BTW, the HR21 has no true slo-mo control, which is another disaster for sports fans (in addition to no :30 instant skip). They force you to hold down the PLAY button, and some time later, the 1X eventually slows down. Then if you want to PAUSE it, you can't then return to slo-mo. You have to go back through 1X for a while, until you hold down the PLAY button again and wait for the slo-mo transition, which seems to happen whenever it feels like it, not in your control. This is patently insane. Only a woman could have designed this mess! No guy in the world would ever settle for not having tight start-stop-start slo-mo control over playback. My Tivo2 was perfect. Separate button for slo-mo. Worked like a charm.

DTV needs a new motto (choose one): 

WE ARE DEVO

or

BETTY LOU HERE DESIGNED THE REMOTE


----------



## bigwad

Only 8% use OTA?!? I gotta question that. From my reading, and my own situation, it doesn't look like D* is gonna have my locals in HD very soon, and the way things are going, I'm skeptical that thay ever will. They promise and promise, gave me tentative dates, etc. I called yesterday and now they won't even give me a possible date for locals in HD for my area! All they want, it seems, is to be able to say WE have the MOST HD available. I think they just added a few local areas, which are the first areas to be added since March.



davring said:


> Apparently it will be incorporated in the HR's operation as it is now and able to be duplexed sat/OTA on the same feed. Would be smooth if someone needed it. I suuppose by lowering the price by $100.00 and charging extra for an optional tuner does make more sense. He stated only 8% of D* subs use OTA.


----------



## Drew2k

Smuuth said:


> Well, IF they need a CEer with an HR21 and an available OTA antenna connection to test it, I know where they could find one.





Phil T said:


> Same here!!!





houskamp said:


> And another one willing to test.. Or I will be towards the front of the line to buy one when it's availible..


I can't get OTA where I live, but I have cable, so if the new OTA solution happens to also be Clear QAM capable, and they push a software update that allows for mapping the Clear QAM channels, then I and my HR21 will ALSO be available as test subjects! 

(Am I realistic that the OTA solution will be Clear QAM capable and that there will be a mapping solution? Of course not ... but I can dream!)


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So it sounds like OTA is going to cost the customer even more money. And I don't suppose D* is going to pick up the tab for the cost of the external tuner. So how is this making the HR21 any cheaper?


----------



## GAM

Another volunteer for testing!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

theratpatrol said:


> So it sounds like OTA is going to cost the customer even more money. And I don't suppose D* is going to pick up the tab for the cost of the external tuner. So how is this making the HR21 any cheaper?


Since there is ZERO public information on what the solution would be.
No point in guessing on what it would cost, who is going to pay for it, or what.

As to the later point.

Because as much as it may be a shock to some people out there...
Everyone doesn't want nor need OTA.

So even if they had to pay for the solution for the percentage that do want/need it... there is going to be a large population that the savings in the manufacturing will be significant.

And then again... why shouldn't it cost the customer that wants OTA access money?
What does DirecTV gain by providing OTA access for no cost? They have to deal with the support/development of the hardware, let alone the cost to manufacture it, and distribute it...
With nothing in return.

They are going to get the same subscription fee from you regardless if you have OTA or Not.


----------



## hasan

Earl Bonovich said:


> So even if they had to pay for the solution for the percentage that do want/need it... there is going to be a large population that the savings in the manufacturing will be significant.
> 
> And then again... why shouldn't it cost the customer that wants OTA access money?
> What does DirecTV gain by providing OTA access for no cost? They have to deal with the support/development of the hardware, let alone the cost to manufacture it, and distribute it...
> With nothing in return.
> 
> They are going to get the same subscription fee from you regardless if you have OTA or Not.


Those are *excellent and fair minded* points

As I have participated and read all the OTA threads, I am left with one conclusion: some people can't take yes for an answer.

We are told a solution is forthcoming. We are told it will be an integrated solution. It is likely to cost "something". As long as the cost is reasonable and not exploitive, I just don't see anything to complain about. No one is more pro-OTA than I am, but I also try to be reasonable in my assessments and expectations.

I draw the line at two places:

1. No OTA support (which has been responded to by D*)

2. Exploitive pricing for said support (pricing well above and beyond the market costs for an add-on tuner of similar design).

I would gladly pay a reasonable price for an integrated add-on tuner for the HR21 series. Someone is going to pay for it, nothing is free. Those who want/need it should not object to paying for it, if they only represent a minority (we can argue about "how substantial" a minority this is). If those needing/wanting OTA were a majority, then one could make the assertion that the cost should be spread among all customers. I haven't seen anyone claim that the majority of D*'s HD-DVR customers either want or need OTA. Those of us who do, need to pony up.

Earl's points are fair and valid. Now it's up to D* to deliver.


----------



## Lee L

Earl Bonovich said:


> And then again... why shouldn't it cost the customer that wants OTA access money?
> What does DirecTV gain by providing OTA access for no cost? They have to deal with the support/development of the hardware, let alone the cost to manufacture it, and distribute it...
> With nothing in return.


Well, since the HR20 and HR21 cost the same amount, in reality the customer who got stuck with an HR21 will end up paying more than someone who got a HR20 a few weeks prior. Not that it si against the l;aw to change pricing or anythign, but that is the reality.



> They are going to get the same subscription fee from you regardless if you have OTA or Not.


But, if a custmer stays with DirecTV because they have acess to locals in a market that DirecTV does not have LiL service in. DirecTV sure makes more money in that scenario.


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> What does DirecTV gain by providing OTA access for no cost?


Customer satisfaction.

What do they gain by having any free DOD content?

Ever hear of a loss leader?

Anyway, I don't mind paying for the option, as long as it is reasonable.

The problem is that DirecTV blew it in introducing the HR21 and H21 without a reasonable distribution system prior to an OTA solution.


----------



## mpaquette

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are going to get the same subscription fee from you regardless if you have OTA or Not.


Potentially. What happens when a prospective new customer is considering a move from cable to DTV. With cable they have the ability to receive their local digital stations, however they are in a market that DTV does not yet carry digital locals. If recording digital local stations with a DVR is important to this perspective customer, then the lack of an OTA solution + the lack of digital locals would be a deal breaker. So in the end, DTV gets no subscription fee from this customer because they stay with cable.


----------



## Doug Brott

tonyd79 said:


> Ever hear of a loss leader?


In this case, that doesn't really apply. "free" OTA is not what gets people in the door at DIRECTV .. HD content, NFL ST, etc. is what does it. The loss leader for DIRECTV is the 4-month free premium service when you sign up for NFL ST.

OTA is a bonus, plain and simple .. DIRECTV has OTA to stay competitive, but it is by no means the focus of their business model. Hasan's assessment is very on point for this discussion.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Well... as far as I know... there are not many cable-carriers that have OTA equipment either?

And as DirecTV adds more local channels on the HD side of things, that issue becomes smaller and smaller.

Very similar scenerio to a few years ago... with SD Locals.
And yet... there was no clamoring for NTSC tuners in all their equipment....

The vast majority of the factors involved are the same.

While a lot of you may think they "screwed the pooch" on the release of the HR21.. you have to remember there is a very very large population of users out there that could absolutely careless about OTA...

And for them.. .the HR21 is working just fine.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

I just noticed that this thread started in October.

- Craig


----------



## MrMolding

I didn't think I'd care too much about OTA when I got D* but I do. 

My HD locals on 93 show signals in the 92-98 range and recently I've only see them a few hours a day. Mainly I tune to an HD local and I get a blank screen with no searching for sat signal. I've reset the box, refreshed from the website, called DirecTV, got my dish realigned, etc. Eventually, I get the blank channels again. I've wondered if it's the CEs but I'm back on the national release and my H20's do the same thing.

But, my old standby is OTA. Always there, always on.  When the HD locals are as reliable as the SD locals, and they offer every single OTA subchannel, I'll dump the OTA. Until then, I now have 3 HR20s because of all of this panic.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

93? or 99?

As for every single OTA subchannel...
Unless there is a MUST-CARRY law passed for the Digital Channels..
Don't ever expect the sub-channels to be carrier... at least not at a 100% ratio.

And if that does pass...
Kiss bandwith goodbye again.

As that is what happened the last time when must-carry kicked in.


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well... as far as I know... there are not many cable-carriers that have OTA equipment either?
> 
> And as DirecTV adds more local channels on the HD side of things, that issue becomes smaller and smaller.


But AFAIK, cable companies usually carry the local channels via cable so having an OTA enabled STB isn't necessary.

And yes, as more and more local HD channels are added the issue becomes more of a non-issue, but until that happens it's still an issue. IMHO, if D* would have just put a process in place to allow for a customer that requests a HR20 to receive one without playing games this would have not caused the problems that it has.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Craig, I'm not sure what your point is there, but...

I've been trying to stay out of this thread for some time, because I think that every reasonable point was made in the first few pages. 

It's a waiting game right now, that's all. As I tell Mrs. Shadow all the time, the downside about having so much advance news about stuff is waiting for it to hit the streets. 

It will come, when it will come. 
It will be priced, what it will be priced. 
It will be given away free, if it is given away free.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> But AFAIK, cable companies usually carry the local channels via cable so having an OTA enabled STB isn't necessary.
> 
> And yes, as more and more local HD channels are added the issue becomes more of a non-issue, but until that happens it's still an issue. IMHO, if D* would have just put a process in place to allow for a customer that requests a HR20 to receive one without playing games this would have not caused the problems that it has.


Well to the first point: Exactly true.
As more of the HD broadcasting channels get on DirecTV... The apples to apples become equal.

To the second point...
Even if they did... There would still be those that have issues... as they didn't know the difference.

And then there would probably be the complaint threads on that it is taking 4-8 weeks to get an HR20-100... when others are getting the HR21's in days.


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well to the first point: Exactly true.
> As more of the HD broadcasting channels get on DirecTV... The apples to apples become equal.
> 
> To the second point...
> Even if they did... There would still be those that have issues... as they didn't know the difference.
> 
> And then there would probably be the complaint threads on that it is taking 4-8 weeks to get an HR20-100... when others are getting the HR21's in days.


But the folks that did do their homework and knew what the differences were would be able to get what they want. And I for one would be happy to wait 4 to 8 weeks to get what I want vs. getting locked into a 24 month contract with something I'm not happy with.


----------



## jlmdutch

I did do my homework (well some, just not good enough) and really believed I was getting a HD DVR with OTA but was given an HR21 for the same price and I'm stuck. Where I'm at I will get HD locals sometime after 2035. If it ends up I have to wait a year for the "upcoming integrated solution" and they end up wanting more than $40 - $50 for that solution I am going to just eat the remaining months on my contract and go shopping for digital cable, FIOS, or whatever, anything OTHER than directv.


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> 93? or 99?
> 
> As for every single OTA subchannel...
> Unless there is a MUST-CARRY law passed for the Digital Channels..
> Don't ever expect the sub-channels to be carrier... at least not at a 100% ratio.
> 
> And if that does pass...
> Kiss bandwith goodbye again.
> 
> As that is what happened the last time when must-carry kicked in.


Well, you just countered your cable argument.

Most cable companies carry all the subchannels.

Plus, DirecTV is at least a year away from carrying all HD all over the country, so why push the non-OTA receivers now?


----------



## tonyd79

Doug Brott said:


> In this case, that doesn't really apply. "free" OTA is not what gets people in the door at DIRECTV .. HD content, NFL ST, etc. is what does it. The loss leader for DIRECTV is the 4-month free premium service when you sign up for NFL ST.


It is one of the items that gets from not ignoring the door.

I, for one, didn't decide on which Tivo model to get when I got my first because I was waiting for my locals on DirecTV.

Given that a majority of TV watching is still network TV, a solution is very important. For many (most?) HD channels, DirecTV has no solution other than OTA now and for a reasonable portion of the future.

Not that many markets (yet), the big four only (no PBS, no CW in most markets), no subchannels.

These are all roadblocks for DirecTV. If they weren't, they never would have offered locals at all, locals in HD or OTA support. Looks like THEY knew that locals are/were important.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tonyd79 said:


> Well, you just countered your cable argument.
> 
> Most cable companies carry all the subchannels.
> 
> Plus, DirecTV is at least a year away from carrying all HD all over the country, so why push the non-OTA receivers now?


I said that it becomes more closer to an apples-apples comparison... rather then an apples-orange right now.

It is one of the major disadvanteges that DBS systems have when compared to cable-co's.

Cable-Co's are all regionalized, so they only need an infrustructure to support their exact region... no more... no less.

DBS systems, have to at it's core, have a system to support ALL regions at one time.... while the spot beam distribution helps, there is still a tremedous amount more behind the scenes.

I doubt I am minority that finds their local sub-channels useless.
Two of the subchannels that I am "missing" are weather maps.... I can get that on the Internet... usually from the exact same source.

Another sub-channel is a replay of local news, and their "inhouse" programming... which has zero intrest to me.
Other sub-channels, are actuall re-broadcats of the same base channels on a different frequency.
I only found the "Tube" intresting for a bit of time... but even that one I don't bother with.
There is a reason why they are "sub-channels" and not base channels.

There is no doubt they are important to some... but again... It is about the percentages.

If there wasn't must-carry laws... I highly doubt a lot of the locals would even be carried on DirecTV/DishNetwork

---

As for why push them now.

Percentages.... The percentage of people that must have/need OTA, are outweighed by those that don't.

So if that means it will take more time to get that other percentage that want/need OTA... then they will forgo that, to capture the customer base that doesn't need/want OTA.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

tonyd79 said:



> Most cable companies carry all the subchannels.


Respectfully, may I ask the source of that information?

My own research on the matter has been very limited but 100% of the cable companies I have surveyed have carried ONLY the "-1" HD channel, no subchannels at all.


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for why push them now.
> 
> Percentages.... The percentage of people that must have/need OTA, are outweighed by those that don't.
> 
> So if that means it will take more time to get that other percentage that want/need OTA... then they will forgo that, to capture the customer base that doesn't need/want OTA.


No, the timing was a mistake. (It doesn't hurt to admit it.)

They don't have a method of delivering OTA to those who need/want it dependably. Sure, HR20s still exist but there is no pipeline to deliver them when needed. It is a crap shoot. (And don't give me market or zip code based because DirecTV still isn't delivering all HD in any given place, so the customer may want OTA to get, oh, Smallville, for example.)

And they don't have the HR21 solution ready yet.

They bungled this one. If they deliver on an OTA solution for the 21 series, that is great but they don't have it yet and are consistently delivering 21 machines to those who want/need OTA.

THAT is their true mistake.

But to continue to downplay peoples wants or needs for OTA is just nonsense. Every poll here shows that OTA is important to a lot of people and will continue to be until (and if) DirecTV ever provides another full solution.

Stop defending that part of the decision. It appears that even DirecTV concedes that point as the title of this thread indicates.


----------



## joesigg

"So if that means it will take more time to get that other percentage that want/need OTA... then they will forgo that, to capture the customer base that doesn't need/want OTA." from Earl

Agreed Earl, but when they have you bound to a commitment, then don't give the OTA channels like PBS, they are sticking it to you. I don't sympathize with new customers who should be looking at what they are getting into, but can you understand my position if my 20 quits and they replace it with a 21, and I then lose my OTA PBS and I still have 1 year to go on my commitment. They have changed the rules on me mid contract!!! (Unless I have a TV with a tuner)


----------



## tonyd79

Stuart Sweet said:


> Respectfully, may I ask the source of that information?
> 
> My own research on the matter has been very limited but 100% of the cable companies I have surveyed have carried ONLY the "-1" HD channel, no subchannels at all.


All full Comcast systems carry all the subchannels. (Maybe those that are purchased and not fully upgraded may not.) Verizon carries all local subchannels.

I'll take my chances on the rest of the country.


----------



## GAM

Even if you have a TV with a tuner you still can't record OTA which is what the HR21 is supposed to be for.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

tonyd79 said:


> Every poll here shows that OTA is important to a lot of people and will continue to be until (and if) DirecTV ever provides another full solution.


Again, with respect, I would suggest that our roughly 2,000 active members are not totally representative of the 16,000,000 DIRECTV subscribers, many of whom are solely interested in watching television and wouldn't know a subchannel from a submarine.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tonyd79 said:


> No, the timing was a mistake. (It doesn't hurt to admit it.)


Well I will respectfully disagree.... I don't think the timing was a mistake.

They released the unit just at the time they were lighting up "100" national HD channels.

To meet the demand and needs of the customers that want those networks... and don't care about their locals, or already have access to their main locals. (which is a LARGE population).

They need to meet that demand.

To sit on the unit, which wasn't going to change in design.
Would have done way more harm then good.

The fact that the HR21 is out there... I think is a MAJOR factor on why we don't see many posts on "I cant' get one" like we had a few months after the HR20 was introduced.


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for every single OTA subchannel...
> Unless there is a MUST-CARRY law passed for the Digital Channels..
> Don't ever expect the sub-channels to be carrier... at least not at a 100% ratio.
> 
> And if that does pass...
> Kiss bandwith goodbye again.


A technical question.

If I have a local channel with no subchannels, they go to full bandwidth on the single channel.

Subchannels subtract from the bandwidth allocated to the digital channel, they do not add to it.

No matter how many subs, the channel has the same amount of bandwidth allocated to it.

Is DirecTV modulation different? I wouldn't think so except for some overhead, it should still add up the same.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

GAM said:


> Even if you have a TV with a tuner you still can't record OTA which is what the HR21 is supposed to be for.


Last time I checked.
The HR20/HR21 where DIRECTV DVR's....

Would you think they would be designed to record the content provided by the carrier's who's name is on it?

The fact that the HR20 could do OTA, is directly corolated to when it was developed vs the penetration of HD Locals via SAT at the time of design.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

tonyd79 said:


> All full Comcast systems carry all the subchannels. (Maybe those that are purchased and not fully upgraded may not.) Verizon carries all local subchannels.
> 
> I'll take my chances on the rest of the country.


Again, may I ask for the source you quote to show that 100% of Comcast cable systems as well as 100% of verizon systems carry 100% of the available subchannels. I do not doubt you but I'm sure you agree that providing this research could only bolster your case.



> Is DirecTV modulation different? I wouldn't think so except for some overhead, it should still add up the same.


Unless I misunderstand, DIRECTV reencodes only the primary "-1" channel for inclusion in its system, not the entire portion of the spectrum allocated to a single broadcaster. So yes.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tonyd79 said:


> A technical question.
> 
> If I have a local channel with no subchannels, they go to full bandwidth on the single channel.
> 
> Subchannels subtract from the bandwidth allocated to the digital channel, they do not add to it.
> 
> No matter how many subs, the channel has the same amount of bandwidth allocated to it.
> 
> Is DirecTV modulation different? I wouldn't think so except for some overhead, it should still add up the same.


Actually it probably is different.
Since in almost every market they recieve the signal... decode it and re-encode it, and send that up as a dedicated stream..

They don't just resend the EXACT same digital stream.

They are already sending a stream over the backhauling a signal that is smaller (in data size), then the original.


----------



## GAM

joesigg said:


> "So if that means it will take more time to get that other percentage that want/need OTA... then they will forgo that, to capture the customer base that doesn't need/want OTA." from Earl
> 
> Agreed Earl, but when they have you bound to a commitment, then don't give the OTA channels like PBS, they are sticking it to you. I don't sympathize with new customers who should be looking at what they are getting into, but can you understand my position if my 20 quits and they replace it with a 21, and I then lose my OTA PBS and I still have 1 year to go on my commitment. They have changed the rules on me mid contract!!! (Unless I have a TV with a tuner)





Earl Bonovich said:


> Last time I checked.
> The HR20/HR21 where DIRECTV DVR's....
> 
> Would you think they would be designed to record the content provided by the carrier's who's name is on it?
> 
> The fact that the HR20 could do OTA, is directly corolated to when it was developed vs the penetration of HD Locals via SAT at the time of design.


I was just replying to the above post about the rules changing on him and his mention of a TV tuner. I assume you would agree that initially having OTA (that is actively being used on the unit) and replacing a defective unit with a Non-OTA box would upset a customer. I was not implying DirecTV is obligated to provide a method for recording OTA as I do not believe they are.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

GAM said:


> I was just replying to the above post about the rules changing on him and his mention of a TV tuner. I assume you would agree that initially having OTA (that is actively being used on the unit) and replacing a defective unit with a Non-OTA box would upset a customer. I was not implying DirecTV is obligated to provide a method for recording OTA as I do not believe they are.


Certainly getting a replacement unit, that doesn't now have OTA would be an issue.

And I know for a fact (Which several people of this forum can attest to).
DirecTV is attempting to elliminate or correct that problem when it does happen.


----------



## GAM

Earl Bonovich said:


> Certainly getting a replacement unit, that doesn't now have OTA would be an issue.
> 
> And I know for a fact (Which several people of this forum can attest to).
> DirecTV is attempting to elliminate or correct that problem when it does happen.


DirecTV, in my opinion, has always been responsive to customer input and has tried to the "right" thing whenever able.


----------



## Tom Robertson

tonyd79 said:


> All full Comcast systems carry all the subchannels. (Maybe those that are purchased and not fully upgraded may not.) Verizon carries all local subchannels.
> 
> I'll take my chances on the rest of the country.


Comcast does not even come close to carrying all the subchannels here. I suggest you double check and post your source.

A comment to other posts, not all stations use the -1 as their HD feed. We have one currently (and others in the past) that use -2 as their HD subchannel. Seems silly to me, but that is their call, I guess. Fortunately, DIRECTV retransmits the correct subchannel. 

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## joesigg

Earl Bonovich said:


> Certainly getting a replacement unit, that doesn't now have OTA would be an issue.
> 
> And I know for a fact (Which several people of this forum can attest to).
> DirecTV is attempting to elliminate or correct that problem when it does happen.


Thanks Earl - that makes me feel better. Lots of PBS in Philadelphia area, but several require OTA for HD subs. Otherwise, I'd get the big ugly antenna off my house and please my wife.


----------



## jwd45244

So now, this thread is 30 pages in length. We have not learned anything new than when it was first started.

DirecTV has said that they will have a solution. We are just waiting for it. 

Is it possible to let this thread die, now?


----------



## GP245

Earl Bonovich said:


> I said that it becomes more closer to an apples-apples comparison... rather then an apples-orange right now.
> 
> It is one of the major disadvanteges that DBS systems have when compared to cable-co's.
> 
> Cable-Co's are all regionalized, so they only need an infrustructure to support their exact region... no more... no less.
> 
> DBS systems, have to at it's core, have a system to support ALL regions at one time.... while the spot beam distribution helps, there is still a tremedous amount more behind the scenes.
> 
> I doubt I am minority that finds their local sub-channels useless.
> Two of the subchannels that I am "missing" are weather maps.... I can get that on the Internet... usually from the exact same source.
> 
> Another sub-channel is a replay of local news, and their "inhouse" programming... which has zero intrest to me.
> Other sub-channels, are actuall re-broadcats of the same base channels on a different frequency.
> I only found the "Tube" intresting for a bit of time... but even that one I don't bother with.
> There is a reason why they are "sub-channels" and not base channels.
> 
> There is no doubt they are important to some... but again... It is about the percentages.
> 
> If there wasn't must-carry laws... I highly doubt a lot of the locals would even be carried on DirecTV/DishNetwork
> 
> ---
> 
> As for why push them now.
> 
> Percentages.... The percentage of people that must have/need OTA, are outweighed by those that don't.
> 
> So if that means it will take more time to get that other percentage that want/need OTA... then they will forgo that, to capture the customer base that doesn't need/want OTA.


Earl -

You're being harsh and shortsighted.

First of all, not everyone has a computer available where they have a television set when they want to obtain local weather reports.

By the way, that's an area on which satellite should work! Technically to be able to insert local information.

Second, sub-channel programming is relatively in its infancy. As carriage grows so will the quality of programming.

As a televsion marketing consultant, I truly believe that there will be programming on the sub-channels that the audience will find valuable.

You shouldn't dismiss their worth.


----------



## Tom Robertson

tonyd79 said:


> A technical question.
> 
> If I have a local channel with no subchannels, they go to full bandwidth on the single channel.
> 
> Subchannels subtract from the bandwidth allocated to the digital channel, they do not add to it.
> 
> No matter how many subs, the channel has the same amount of bandwidth allocated to it.
> 
> Is DirecTV modulation different? I wouldn't think so except for some overhead, it should still add up the same.


Tony's point here about bandwidth is basically sound on one level with potential caveats. If DIRECTV receives the signal OTA, they could spend more money (just as the regional cable companies would have to) to receive and re-encode more streams, without greatly affecting the bandwidth they might have reserved for a full stream HD channel. (If they reserved fullstream...)

The caveat is if DIRECTV is getting a fibre optic feed of the main channel at full bitrate, any subchannels DIRECTV also received could add to the bandwidth requirement. I do not know of any such circomstances, I just know it is possible.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Maruuk

Just a reminder: not everybody can even GET cable! I certainly can't, and I'm only semi-rural and within a few miles of several cities. So for folks like me, DTV or Dish are virtual monopolies.

Also, Tony made the important point but it needs to be amplified upon: We all live under this insane FCC ruling of a few years back which PROHIBITS US from getting any "distant" network stations (meaning any network channels at all) if they exist LOCALLY OTA!

Since DTV has failed to provide any of us with a full local-into-local full spectrum national network HD service, therefore OTA capability becomes not a luxury, BUT A NECESSITY!

FCC takes away distant nets, DTV takes away OTA nets. Result: ZERO HD NETS for many of us who have not yet received local-into-local HD, and the ultimate Soup Nazi response to everyone vis a vis HD public television: NO PBS-HD FOR YOU!

Network television is still the most-watched programming in America. And with the HR21, DTV has just gone a long way towards blocking many us from it. Way to go geniuses!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

GP245 said:


> Earl -
> 
> You're being harsh and shortsighted.
> 
> First of all, not everyone has a computer available where they have a television set when they want to obtain local weather reports.
> 
> By the way, that's an area on which satellite should work! Technically to be able to insert local information.
> 
> Second, sub-channel programming is relatively in its infancy. As carriage grows so will the quality of programming.
> 
> As a televsion marketing consultant, I truly believe that there will be programming on the sub-channels that the audience will find valuable.
> 
> You shouldn't dismiss their worth.


Where am I being Harsh and Shortsighted?
I full understand that fact that there is a significant population that wants/needs OTA.

Just posting my particular observations on my particular sub-channel offerings here in Chicago.

And sorry... but I would absolutely love to see the numbers on those that have HDTV's and higher end technology for the entertainment systems, that don't have at least 1 computer to tap to the internet...

-----
So when sub-channel programming get's out of its infancy... then it will be something to concern.

I am not dismissing the "concept" of sub-channels.... 
But as of today... the sub-channels don't have that content.

The exact same argument made for the last 5ish years about HD... the content wasn't there... so why should the money be spent?

Who is to say that when their is the shift in the demand for HD vs SD... and then SD local feeds can be dropped, because they are carried on the HD side of it... that those important... content full Sub-channels can not be carried?

But I can *NEVER* see the day when DirecTV is going to re-braodcast the "weather" sub-channels, and possibly even the nitch sub-channels that re-broadcast the same things multiple times over and over and over.

That could be an avenue where DoD could come into play.... 
Or the Internet Access points on the receiver.

But bandwith in the sat-signal stream is still a premium that is not easily increased.

And it is not just the sat-signal from DirecTV to consumers... but the backhauling between source and DirecTV....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Network television is still the most-watched programming in America. And with the HR21, DTV has just gone a long way towards blocking many us from it. Way to go geniuses!


Last time I checked...

You are still able to purchase a TiVo-HD or TiVo-Series 3....
To record and watch your OTA broadcasts...

They haven't "blocked" you from anything.

Just because you don't have it all in one unit, at one nice neat tiny price...

Everyone has different factors that come into play.... no one person is the same as the next.

For many years at the start with DirecTV... I had to have both Cable and DirecTV as they didn't carry my locals... but it was still beneficial to have all the other channels that my cable-co didn't carry.

It again boils down to the percentages...

DirecTV will never have 100% of the customer base... 
Heck they only have 17mil subscribers out of the more then 100mil possible.

So if they ultimately end up with a solution that precludes certain combination of factors, it is a percentage game...

There will NEVER be a single carrier that meets everyone needs...
There will NEVER be a single unit/hardware that meets everyone needs...

It all comes down to the percentages and the numbers.

-------

As for your comment about the FCC... well when was the last time they did something that benefitted the consumer?


----------



## Lee L

I am sure it is different everywhere and I do not have cable so I cannot say for sure, but from what I have read in the newspaper, on AVSForums Local thread for this area and heard from other people is that Time Warner has the subchannels here. I know each year during the NCAA tournament when WRAL runs all the 4 games on the subchannels (woo-hoo, no paying $40 for Mega March Madness or whatver it is called) and therefore no HD coverage for any games, that Time Warner also carries a fifth WRAL channel of the standard HD feed for this area that you cannot even get OTA. 



As far as Cable boxes not having OTA inputs, you are right, but in many business, companies struggle to get an advantage over a competitor or to differentiate themselves. I think many would argue that having OTA on a Sat box is just that.


----------



## Maruuk

The PBS subchannels here in Monterey County are significant and extremely cool. Beyond that, the NBC local has a nice 24-hour weather subchannel. All the more reason to love OTA. And all the more reason to be po'd that DTV won't let us timeshift them in the very recorder we paid for with our hard-earned money. The same money that a month earlier would have bought us that capability.

I've been wracking my brain trying to think of a single major electronic product that ever significantly decontented and maintained the same price point. Probably because there are either laws against bait-and-switch or the public would never stand for it. We're the public who won't stand for it.


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> Certainly getting a replacement unit, that doesn't now have OTA would be an issue.
> 
> And I know for a fact (Which several people of this forum can attest to).
> DirecTV is attempting to elliminate or correct that problem when it does happen.


But the problem does exist.

Why won't admit just this once that DirecTV made a mistake.

They cannot reliably satisfy their customers because they released the HR21 before the mechanisms were in place to support the distribution of two systems with different capabilities.

I am not debating the issue of having two systems in the wild, which increases maintenance and distribution costs (that seems to be forgotten every time the HR21 issue is debated). That in itself is a problem, but to not have the support mechanisms in place before deployment is a costly mistake.


----------



## Maruuk

Oh sure, and I'm also free to build and send up my own satellites into orbit and create my own private TV network. Yes, we are so free I can't stand it.


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for your comment about the FCC... well when was the last time they did something that benefitted the consumer?


Too easy.

DirecTV benefits from an FCC ruling every day. The small dish ruling.

And there is always the cablecard mandate that makes quite a few Tivo customers happy.


----------



## tonyd79

Another thing about DirecTV and OTA.

Unless the plan on pulling guide data for the existing systems out there (which would be a first on any platform for DirecTV), they still have to maintain all that structure.

The ONLY cost they are negating is the production cost of OTA hardware and software.

So, any arguments about the cost of maintaining OTA "service" are moot unless you are saying DirecTV is going to pull that service sometime soon.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The marginal increase in cost, to include the guide data there.
Is not even close to the same level of maintaining support for the hardware and interacting with that hardware....

And the royalties involved for the ATSC technology... ect....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tonyd79 said:


> Why won't admit just this once that DirecTV made a mistake.


Because *I* don't think they made a mistake....

But why not admit that there are valid arguments for both sides of this coin?

Why not let me have my opinion on it, instead of telling me that I am wrong and you are right?

I haven't once stated anyone was wrong for their opinion on this topic, just that I have a different opinion on it... and point out WHY I have a different opinion on it?


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> The marginal increase in cost, to include the guide data there.
> Is not even close to the same level of maintaining support for the hardware and interacting with that hardware....
> 
> And the royalties involved for the ATSC technology... ect....


But the costs of this dual delivery of different hardware is nothing, huh? I don't buy it. I have been involved in too much analysis of costs of purchasing, stocking, inventorying and maintaining even small components of slightly different nature. Entire units are geometrically more costly.

And the cost of installing or delivering the wrong equipment. The phone calls about HR20 versus HR21 being delivered. All those costs are nothing, I assume?

I give up. Sometimes you just rah-rah whatever DirecTV wants to do. This is one of those times. I haven't yet seen you admit that they messed up in not having either a solid distribution system of both types of systems or the OTA add-on for the HR20 ready before deployment.

All is well.


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because *I* don't think they made a mistake....
> 
> But why not admit that there are valid arguments for both sides of this coin?
> 
> Why not let me have my opinion on it, instead of telling me that I am wrong and you are right?
> 
> I haven't once stated anyone was wrong for their opinion on this topic, just that I have a different opinion on it... and point out WHY I have a different opinion on it?


Defend their messed up distribution system. Defend that they will not ensure that a customer who wants or needs OTA will get an H20 or an HR20.

Tell me that is not a mistake.

Then I will understand that your opinion is not based in reality.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tonyd79 said:


> Too easy.
> 
> DirecTV benefits from an FCC ruling every day. The small dish ruling.
> 
> And there is always the cablecard mandate that makes quite a few Tivo customers happy.


What that FCC small dish ruling was what 10 years ago?
And in fact... they gave it just enough loop holes, that penalize those in Association based housing.

And similar with the Cable-Card... they left it with an "out" that is now being exploited by cable-co's... Switched Video...

"Theoretical Cable-Card" should have been in place the moment we got cable-ready TV's...

But the FCC discussion is a topic for another day, another thread.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tonyd79 said:


> Defend their messed up distribution system. Defend that they will not ensure that a customer who wants or needs OTA will get an H20 or an HR20.
> 
> Tell me that is not a mistake.
> 
> Then I will understand that your opinion is not based in reality.


Distribution system is what it is....
It didn't change because of the HR21... it stayed the same.

So the "mistake" was done LONG LONG ago... and has nothing to do with the HR21 or the H21.

So the only "mistake" there... was that they didn't re-organize their entire logistics and distribution method... which would have taken a very long time to do...

Still doesn't change the fact that release the HR21, instead of letting them pile up in a wharehouse somewhere... wasn't a mistake.

Could they have done something better to ensure that all the people that absolutey need/want to have an OTA solution can have one... at the moment they receive their system...

Sure...

One way to fix it right now:
Stop selling any HR2X unit to anyone that has that need, until the solution is ready.... problem solved.

Then there will be no more confusion, no more issues.
Then re-instate the sales, when there is no chance of an issue... those that want OTA... can have OTA.

But at the end of the day... that would still mean those that want OTA... won't have OTA.


----------



## houskamp

I would very much suspect that the lack of locals here (lin networks) has a lot to do with the lack of Directv dishes in my area.. If it wasn't for the OTA capability in my Directv recievers I highly doubt I would have them at all.. 
Also as soon as the OTA 'solution' is avalible I will be at the front of the line to get it for my 21...


----------



## tonyd79

Earl Bonovich said:


> Distribution system is what it is....
> It didn't change because of the HR21... it stayed the same.
> 
> So the "mistake" was done LONG LONG ago... and has nothing to do with the HR21 or the H21.
> 
> So the only "mistake" there... was that they didn't re-organize their entire logistics and distribution method... which would have taken a very long time to do...
> 
> Still doesn't change the fact that release the HR21, instead of letting them pile up in a wharehouse somewhere... wasn't a mistake.


LOL. You may not realize it but you are painting a company completely out of control and making knee-jerk decisions as if things just happen to them.

Yes, they couldn't foresee any issues when they decided to commit to the 21 series and design it and build it. Couldn't simply fix their distribution and inventory system. There had to be time involved there. It isn't like HR21's suddenly appeared on pallets without anyone knowing it was going to happen.

Because companies distributing more than one widget don't ever have to deal with adjusting to new products in the distribution chain.

Your spinning is making them look like worse managers than my suggestion that they made a simple mistake.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I'm sorry... I am not doing any painting....

I don't think they are out of control... I think they are very much in control.
And that some people are really getting bent over something that is not having any sort of impact on the significantly larger portion of their customer base.

But hey...
Your are going to reverse everything I post anyway... 
So what is the point?

You have your opinion on what is going on... 
I have mine.

I still don't think they made a mistake... in releasing the HR21 when they did... and I still don't think it is a mistake to have OTA removed from the 21 series.


----------



## IBleedGreen

Tom Robertson said:


> Tony's point here about bandwidth is basically sound on one level with potential caveats. If DIRECTV receives the signal OTA, they could spend more money (just as the regional cable companies would have to) to receive and re-encode more streams, without greatly affecting the bandwidth they might have reserved for a full stream HD channel. (If they reserved fullstream...)
> 
> The caveat is if DIRECTV is getting a fibre optic feed of the main channel at full bitrate, any subchannels DIRECTV also received could add to the bandwidth requirement. I do not know of any such circomstances, I just know it is possible.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


Tom, this is good news.... First time poster here and of course a GB fan... Make it to 3-4 games a year still.. Tailgate is alway open for you if you ever get back this way..  Also without searching through all these threads, what is the best way to get OTA without going through DTV, using the newer HR21? Thanks...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

IBleedGreen said:


> Tom, this is good news.... First time poster here and of course a GB fan... Make it to 3-4 games a year still.. Tailgate is alway open for you if you ever get back this way..  Also without searching through all these threads, what is the best way to get OTA without going through DTV, using the newer HR21? Thanks...


You would need another receiver of some type.

You would need to get an HR20 series box... if you want to DVR it from DirecTV.

You would need to get one of the two TiVo products... if you want to go that route.

Or if no need to DVR... then you can go with any available ATSC receiver out there.

There is no way, as of today... to get ATSC (OTA) on an HR21


----------



## Stuart Sweet

:welcome_s IBleedGreen!

You could always hook your antenna right up to your TV...


----------



## Ken S

Earl Bonovich said:


> I'm sorry... I am not doing any painting....
> 
> I don't think they are out of control... I think they are very much in control.
> And that some people are really getting bent over something that is not having any sort of impact on the significantly larger portion of their customer base.
> 
> But hey...
> Your are going to reverse everything I post anyway...
> So what is the point?
> 
> You have your opinion on what is going on...
> I have mine.
> 
> I still don't think they made a mistake... in releasing the HR21 when they did... and I still don't think it is a mistake to have OTA removed from the 21 series.


Earl,

If it wasn't a mistake then they intentionally did something they knew would be upsetting to some of their customers, both existing and new.
It's very hard to believe that they couldn't add one or two new skus to their system and then distribute them accordingly. If not, how are they ever going to distribute the HR Pro series? Just send it out randomly like they do the 20 and 21?

They're able to differentiate between sending out SD receivers, SD DVRs, HD receivers, HD DVRs, different remote controls, etc. I guess their computer distribution system ran out of memory?

It could have been handled better.


----------



## Tom_S

Well, I can see D* point in all this. They are spending alot of money uplinking all these channels, why distribute a product in which a significant portion of their subscribers can use to get the same channels for free. It does not make good business sense, hell, I'm surprised they ever included it at all.

They really are under no obligation to provide this functionality, so they are not. If you want OTA there are still many ways to do it, just not with D*'s product.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

They are going to intentionally do something again... that is going to upset their customers: Shut off the MPEG-2 stream.

But even with those examples:

They don't differeniate between:
D10/D11/D12

They don't differentiate between:
H20/H21

They don't differentiate between
R32/R64 on their remotes.

I don't expect them to differentiate between 
R15/R16 once the R16 is released.

The HR21-PRO is a completely different product (and may not even be called an HR21-PRO), and until it is released... who knows if you will even be able to get it from 1-800 DirecTV... You may have to go through dedicated resellers

So unless they go to a model...
Where they ship you the unit... instead of the installer bring a specific unit... 
Which is significantly more expensive... and a "penalty of open" sticker on them, while you wait for the installer to arrive.

And then the headaches of installers getting their before the equipment, ect...

I doubt you are going to see something change.

I am sure they could do something.. but again...
It is to what percentage.... Are the percentages there of "upset" customers, that warrant a total change to their distribution model.

None of us have those answers.
No model is going to be perfect....


----------



## PCampbell

I used to repair TVs (on the side) back when you could make at it so a lot of people ask me about HDTV and how to get content for it. I tell them I use Directv and a OTA, to a man they all say no way to OTA. I am the only one I know that uses one. Everyone here cable, sat or u-verse, so in a large city I dont think there is a big demand for it. In the northern part of Michigan more people have OTA but the population is not that high. In the end I think they will have a fix and we will all forget about this.


----------



## mpaquette

PCampbell said:


> I used to repair TVs (on the side) back when you could make at it so a lot of people ask me about HDTV and how to get content for it. I tell them I use Directv and a OTA, to a man they all say no way to OTA. I am the only one I know that uses one. Everyone here cable, sat or u-verse, so in a large city I dont think there is a big demand for it. In the northern part of Michigan more people have OTA but the population is not that high. In the end I think they will have a fix and we will all forget about this.


Good point. Typically when I tell people that I pick up HD channels with an antenna, they look at me like I'm crazy.


----------



## loudo

I just wonder how DirecTV coming out with HD receivers without OTA tuners, to receive the HD and digital channels that they don't offer, will effect them in the market place. I am sure you will see the cable companies and DISH have a field day in their advertising over that fact. Most cable companies offer all local digitals and you can still get OTA from DISH, with their 662 and 772 DVRs.


----------



## Maruuk

Tom--You are exactly right except for three critical points: their competitor Dish offers OTA, their competitor Comcast offers full coverage locals nationwide, and they not only used to provide OTA themselves leading to the reasonable expectation on the part of consumers they would continue the practice, but they very sneakily tried to slip in the decontented unit for the exact same price and hoped nobody would notice. That is contemptible at best.

When our local library "decontented" its services due to lack of funds, they had the integrity to make clear and public announcements about it so there'd be no confusion or inconvenience on the part of its patrons.

When DTV decontented its hardware/services, they called the gutted unit by the exact same nomenclature as the full-featured unit, intentionally attempting to confuse the customer. Not one announcement ever came out from DTV about the ol' 3 Card Monte switcheroo. This was a classic bait-and-switch scam, the very thing that FTC regulators are supposed to throw people in jail for. Representing one thing as another but providing significantly less value is fraud.

DTV dang well better offer those tuner dongles for free, and fast--or be prepared to face the music.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Tom--You are exactly right except for three critical points: their competitor Dish offers OTA, their competitor Comcast offers full coverage locals nationwide, and they not only used to provide OTA themselves leading to the reasonable expectation on the part of consumers they would continue the practice, but they very sneakily tried to slip in the decontented unit for the exact same price and hoped nobody would notice. That is contemptible at best.
> 
> When our local library "decontented" its services due to lack of funds, they had the integrity to make clear and public announcements about it so there'd be no confusion or inconvenience on the part of its patrons.
> 
> When DTV decontented its hardware/services, they called the gutted unit by the exact same nomenclature as the full-featured unit, intentionally attempting to confuse the customer. Not one announcement ever came out from DTV about the ol' 3 Card Monte switcheroo. This was a classic bait-and-switch scam, the very thing that FTC regulators are supposed to throw people in jail for. Representing one thing as another but providing significantly less value is fraud.
> 
> DTV dang well better offer those tuner dongles for free, and fast--or be prepared to face the music.


I highly doubt they are going to face any "loud" music.

Unless you were told you where going to receive specifically an HR20... and have it documented that was what you were to receive.

Chances where likely that most orders where for an HD-DVR not a specifc version of it.

Where was the HD-DVR represented as having OTA, since the release of the HR21?

If the FCC was going to go after them... they already would have.
AND the FCC knew about the receiver way before we did, as it had to be certified/filed with them, before it was released to market.


----------



## Doug Brott

Maruuk,

Have you called DIRECTV to try and get your issue resolved? It's too bad you didn't find this site sooner as you would have had a leg up in dealing with the situation that you now find yourself in.


----------



## Drew2k

Maruuk said:


> When our local library "decontented" its services due to lack of funds, they had the integrity to make clear and public announcements about it so there'd be no confusion or inconvenience on the part of its patrons.


I don't know if anyone else was curious about it, but I had to look it up:



> "Decontenting" is an apparently common practice of the auto industry: increase profits by removing standard features and making them extras, rather than raising the sticker price. (See the bottom of this page.) It's best, of course, if it's a feature that the customer won't miss overmuch - i.e., the cost of including it outweights the benefit derived from including it - otherwise there's a general hue and cry.


 (Source)

All I can say is I think the word is being used prematurely. We have seen no indication from DIRECTV that customers will bear the cost to add the "extra" ...


----------



## loudo

Doug Brott said:


> Maruuk,
> 
> Have you called DIRECTV to try and get your issue resolved? It's too bad you didn't find this site sooner as you would have had a leg up in dealing with the situation that you now find yourself in.


From what it sounds like he assumed he would get an HR20. If he called and asked for one, I am sure he would have been told the same thing I was told when I tried to order one from DirecTV. They told me that I would get what ever model the installer had, and if I wanted a specific one I would have to go out and find it at a retailer, and purchase it myself. That I did and now I am a happy camper.


----------



## Doug Brott

loudo,

Good job on working through the issue .


----------



## adam1115

Earl Bonovich said:


> Last time I checked...
> 
> You are still able to purchase a TiVo-HD or TiVo-Series 3....
> To record and watch your OTA broadcasts...
> 
> They haven't "blocked" you from anything.


Yup thank god for that.

They blocked me from returning as a customer. I was considering it, now that their DVR has been out for awhile and is stable, and they added some good HD content.

Then they RIP OTA out of the thing, preventing many users from getting HD locals. And their KA sats aren't as reliable as KU, let alone as good as OTA. So great, in a weather emergency my satellite is out and I can't tune into anything.

Great move DirecTV. Hopefully there are more 'Earl's' than 'me's'.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Umm... the HR21 didn't have OTA... so they didn't rip anything out of it.
You can still obtain an HR20 if you wanted to.

I have found my KA's to be as reliable or even more so then the KU's.
During our recent ice storm... my KU's had some issues, while the Ka's were just fine.


----------



## Lord Vader

I'm curious to know if those who are reflexively defending DirecTV in this manner are the same ones who were voicing concern that the HR20s when first introduced lacked OTA tuner capability. If so, that would smack of hypocrisy.


----------



## Maruuk

Let's clarify the issues once more since the DTV Johnny Cochranes here keep trying to muddy the waters by throwing in irrelevant and misleading statements:

1. DTV sold a PVR to the public for an established period of time which contained an obvious necessity for many viewers: an OTA tuner which also allowed the recording of OTA programs.

2. This unit was not marketed or delineated in any way to the general public as anything but a generic "Directv Plus HD DVR".

3. While us hobbyists/insiders had some knowledge of the term HR20, this was never mentioned in any DTV promotion or info.

4. The "Directv Plus HD DVR" was sold one day with an OTA tuner, and the next day without under the exact same nomenclature and for the same price. Customers were not informed of the decontenting of the device, and were not given any chance to choose between have and have not. 

This is a clear case of fraud/misrepresentation of goods. Bait and switch. DTV is wide open to a class action lawsuit on this, and they'd lose. Cost them millions.

They are going to have supply those in need with free tuners, under a judge's orders if necessary.


----------



## Bill 3

Earl Bonovich said:


> Umm... the HR21 didn't have OTA... so they didn't rip anything out of it.
> You can still obtain an HR20 if you wanted to.


I have been trying for over a month now to get a HR20, I was told that the installer could order one after the first time they tried to bring me a 21. I have had to reschedule 2 times since then because of the tech bringing a 21 and not a 20. Last week when rescheduling I was told that the "warehouse" could no longer order the HR20..... I tried Circuit City and they can not order the HR20 either - at least not at this time.

To me DirecTV spoiled me with giving me the OTA tuner in the HR20. But it is like the first tivo unit I got from them - I don't think I want to be without it again. Probably 75% of the stuff I record and watch (especially football this time of year) is on the local channels and Hi-Def is awesome for watching sports. That said I would consider changing to Dish with OTA if it wasn't for the contract requirements. I have stuck with DirecTV for over 12 years and I am not ready to leave. I don't think it is too much to ask for them to give us a time frame (better than "early 2008" - we know how that went with the HD rollout). Something that is somewhat specific for either the OTA solution or Local HD through satellite.

Regardless of your views on OTA. I still pay to have my programming which includes local channels, so it is not like I am trying to pay less for my programming by getting someting OTA. So IMO the longer that OTA is available, the less pressure DTV would get for getting the HD locals up.

I respect Earl and appreciate all of the things he has done on this forum. But DTV giving us OTA and then taking it away a year later is like taking candy from a baby. And I am one of the babies and need OTA for HD for who knows how much longer.

Cheers,
Bill


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Bill3, check out your local big box stores and warehouse stores. While it's getting harder, you can still find HR20s there sometimes. Then call DIRECTV and get them to credit you the purchase price.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Bill 3 said:


> I respect Earl and appreciate all of the things he has done on this forum. But DTV giving us OTA and then taking it away a year later is like taking candy from a baby. And I am one of the babies and need OTA for HD for who knows how much longer.
> 
> Cheers,
> Bill


But then they have been "giving" OTA support since the very first HD tuner that was made 5+ years ago..

It was just time before it eventually went away.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Let's clarify the issues once more since the DTV Johnny Cochranes here keep trying to muddy the waters by throwing in irrelevant and misleading statements:
> 
> 1. DTV sold a PVR to the public for an established period of time which contained an obvious necessity for many viewers: an OTA tuner which also allowed the recording of OTA programs.
> 
> 2. This unit was not marketed or delineated in any way to the general public as anything but a generic "Directv Plus HD DVR".
> 
> 3. While us hobbyists/insiders had some knowledge of the term HR20, this was never mentioned in any DTV promotion or info.
> 
> 4. The "Directv Plus HD DVR" was sold one day with an OTA tuner, and the next day without under the exact same nomenclature and for the same price. Customers were not informed of the decontenting of the device, and were not given any chance to choose between have and have not.
> 
> This is a clear case of fraud/misrepresentation of goods. Bait and switch. DTV is wide open to a class action lawsuit on this, and they'd lose. Cost them millions.
> 
> They are going to have supply those in need with free tuners, under a judge's orders if necessary.


That DVR was also never marketed to have OTA support.
And the "DirecTV Plus HD DVR" can't ever change?

Do all products when they come out with their next versions, have to have the EXACT same features as the previous one?

Good luck with your class action...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Ok, ok, ok.

Let's all back up a little bit. I think our reality checks are bouncing.

First, restate our assumptions.


DIRECTV still has OTA-capable DVRs, they're just in short supply right now. 
DIRECTV has committed to supplying an OTA solution for their HR21s.
No one says OTA is unimportant, but not everyone places the same importance on it. 
DIRECTV probably won't ever carry every digital channel in every market.
However, not every cable system will, either. 
A class action suit would take a long time its relevance would be questionable.
We're all grownups here. We all deserve respect.

Is there anything I forgot to say? Oh yeah, please let's all be respectful, and if a point's already been made in this thread, please add to it only if you have something new to say.


----------



## GP245

"The Shadow Knows" and so do you!

I hope that people will not only read your posting but also take it to heart!

You have succinctly stated where we are.

All of the backbiting and railing have become tiresome and unproductive.

Thanks again.


----------



## JBernardK

Earl Bonovich said:


> That DVR was also never marketed to have OTA support.
> And the "DirecTV Plus HD DVR" can't ever change?
> 
> Do all products when they come out with their next versions, have to have the EXACT same features as the previous one?
> 
> Good luck with your class action...


I think the point he was trying to make is that to the average consumer it is not a "new" product or version. It is a directv HD DVR, same one that has been out for over a year. I am sure if they added some feature they would be touting it in teir ads.


----------



## meller

GP245 said:


> "The Shadow Knows" and so do you!
> 
> I hope that people will not only read your posting but also take it to heart!
> 
> You have succinctly stated where we are.
> 
> All of the backbiting and railing have become tiresome and unproductive.
> 
> Thanks again.


Amen to that..................


----------



## mhayes70

GP245 said:


> "The Shadow Knows" and so do you!
> 
> I hope that people will not only read your posting but also take it to heart!
> 
> You have succinctly stated where we are.
> 
> All of the backbiting and railing have become tiresome and unproductive.
> 
> Thanks again.


I agree with you!!! Let's all stop this arguing about OTA on the HR21. We just need to wait and see what the solution is. There is nothing anyone can change about the HR21 not having OTA and as GP245 said it is getting tiresome and unproductive.


----------



## hasan

Stuart Sweet said:


> Ok, ok, ok.
> 
> Let's all back up a little bit. I think our reality checks are bouncing.
> 
> First, restate our assumptions.
> 
> 
> DIRECTV still has OTA-capable DVRs, they're just in short supply right now.
> DIRECTV has committed to supplying an OTA solution for their HR21s.
> No one says OTA is unimportant, but not everyone places the same importance on it.
> DIRECTV probably won't ever carry every digital channel in every market.
> However, not every cable system will, either.
> A class action suit would take a long time its relevance would be questionable.
> We're all grownups here. We all deserve respect.
> 
> Is there anything I forgot to say? Oh yeah, please let's all be respectful, and if a point's already been made in this thread, please add to it only if you have something new to say.


*Finally*, amidst all the histrionics (on both sides), the tortured logic, and the apologetics, a voice of reason! Patience remains a precious commodity, and the determination to be "right" has grown tedious. The ability of both sides to be gracious has gone completely missing, and things have continued on the line of a couple of two-year-olds: "said so", "said not".

Stuart, with this summary, has done us all a service. It would be nice if we could all take advantage of it, and wait this one out. Nothing can be gained by trying to go beyond what Stuart said to either further defend the indefensible, or cry over spilled milk.

If the previously put forth time line is anywhere near correct, then it will only be a month or two before we have something *concrete* to lay our hands on, instead of endless and mindless speculation on coulda, woulda, shoulda.

The horse is dead, the autopsy has been done innumerable times, and the results continue to be disputed. As was so aptly put in "My Cousin Vinny", "I come from a long line of arguers." Neither camp has evidenced even a modicum of restraint in their zealous pursuit of "I'm right, you're wrong, as you don't know the facts".

We can always start the whole mess all over again when we have something concrete to discuss. Until then, Stuart has set the bar and the rest is noise, and juvenile noise at that.


----------



## bhelton71

I am just popping in for the technology discussion. I take it from the latest round of posts no word yet ?


----------



## hasan

waynenm said:


> Please point me to where that commitment was made. I missed it.
> Thanks,
> Wayne


It's in the first post in this thread.

...and there has been one subsequent announcement, indicating who the partnering firm is that is producing the add-on for the HR21 series. I don't have a link to that one.

Quoting from the first post:

So I pass on this statement from DIRECTV regarding OTA: "We will have a solution."

endquote.


----------



## hasan

bhelton71 said:


> I am just popping in for the technology discussion. I take it from the latest round of posts no word yet ?


Nothing definitive, but there was one other post indicating who was producing the add-on. Other than that, I've seen no new info.


----------



## waynenm

hasan said:


> It's in the first post in this thread.
> 
> ...and there has been one subsequent announcement, indicating who the partnering firm is that is producing the add-on for the HR21 series. I don't have a link to that one.
> 
> Quoting from the first post:
> 
> So I pass on this statement from DIRECTV regarding OTA: "We will have a solution."
> 
> endquote.


Right, I saw the beginning of the thread. I'm wondering about the subsequent announcement.
Thanks,
Wayne


----------



## colts19

This post is to Earl. I have read your post for several years both here and on the avs tivo forum. I too want you to know how valuable the information you have provided has been. I also want to let everyone know that i have had Directv for 8 years and have always been treated very fairly by them. Sometimes I just got lucky and other times they just came through. I just ordered a second hd dvr and i ask for a hr-20 because we don't have locals where i live and i need the ota. They said they would note it in the order but couldn't promise anything. Installer arrived with the hr-20, just lucky.

My point is, just because i was lucky doesn't mean everyone is. For D* not to make more of an effort to provide hr-20 to people in my position just doesn't make any sense. None of the arguments you make in that regard seem to be anything less than just being a D* fanboy. 

Let's quit defending our postions on this to the death and actually try to provide our customers with what they need.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lets make this clear though:
DirecTV will not guarantee you either model... HR20 or HR21.
To them... it is the HD-DVR.

They are making an effort, to make sure that people that already HAVE an HR20, and need a replacement... they will get an HR20 in return... but even that will eventually end.

Just like those with an HR10-250, that need a replacement... eventually they had to get an HR20/21.

They are making an effort for those upgrading from an HR10-250, to get an HR20.

If you absolutely MUST have an HR20... no question about it.
You will have to go through a retailer, that can guarantee you the specific model... and then work on a credit or something with DirecTV.

If you are ADDING another HD-DVR to your system... you will get what the installer has... they are NOT going to guarantee you another HR20... if you already have an HR20.

If continuing pointing out the facts, and what is actually going on... makes me a "fanboy"... then send me the jersey.

Just because it is not the "popular" opinion... doesn't make it incorrect.


----------



## GAM

Reminder Alert! - It is only TV!! Correction - It is DirecTV!!!


----------



## Dolfid

GAM said:


> Reminder Alert! - It is only TV!! Correction - It is DirecTV!!!


And in my humble opininon (IMHO) -- here's the future for us as DirecTV subscribers...

First, OTA capability is slowly, but cleverly being taken away from the receiver hardware (their HR21 "solution" for OTA will no doubt cost if and when it is available)

Second, we'll start seeing the HD channels that we are getting "hooked" on now put in to "HDTV program packages" so they can "extract" additional monthly charges.

Third, we'll keep waiting in anticipation for On Demand Beta and Media Share Beta to be finalized - IMHO, they'll have to improve considerably to be of any enhancement to my viewing experience.


----------



## DanM

Here's a question, if you add a used HR10 to your account, do you have to pay the HD access fee for it to record OTA HD locals?


----------



## loudo

DanM said:


> Here's a question, if you add a used HR10 to your account, do you have to pay the HD access fee for it to record OTA HD locals?


if you already have it for another set you won't. You pay a single fee and it includes all DVRs you own. You will a have to add it as an additional receiver, for the $4.99 charge. You can use an HR10-250 for an OTA receiver only, but you can't record with it unless you activate it and have the DVR fee on your account.


----------



## DanM

loudo said:


> if you already have it for another set you won't. You pay a single fee and it includes all DVRs you own. You will a have to add it as an additional receiver, for the $4.99 charge. You can use an HR10-250 for an OTA receiver only, but you can't record with it unless you activate it and have the DVR fee on your account.


No I already have 4 SD D*Tivos, so I am paying the DVR fees (I guess). It may just be included in the Premier package, because I don't see it explicitly listed on my bill. But we just got an HDTV and I'm weighing options, including buying an HR10 cheap on ebay, for the OTA recording.


----------



## joed32

DanM said:


> No I already have 4 SD D*Tivos, so I am paying the DVR fees (I guess). It may just be included in the Premier package, because I don't see it explicitly listed on my bill. But we just got an HDTV and I'm weighing options, including buying an HR10 cheap on ebay, for the OTA recording.


If you have had Premier for awhile you are "grandfathered" and the DVR fee is free. If you order it now it is not included.


----------



## joed32

adam1115 said:


> Yup thank god for that.
> 
> They blocked me from returning as a customer. I was considering it, now that their DVR has been out for awhile and is stable, and they added some good HD content.
> 
> Then they RIP OTA out of the thing, preventing many users from getting HD locals. And their KA sats aren't as reliable as KU, let alone as good as OTA. So great, in a weather emergency my satellite is out and I can't tune into anything.
> 
> Great move DirecTV. Hopefully there are more 'Earl's' than 'me's'.


I hope so too!


----------



## DanM

Ahh, damn they nickel and dime you don't they? Yeah, I guess I would be grandfathered in, I've had this for a few years now. I just pay for the additional receivers.

So, any idea if the HR10 can record OTA HD without the HD pack? I guess I could get one and try it out.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

DanM said:


> Ahh, damn they nickel and dime you don't they? Yeah, I guess I would be grandfathered in, I've had this for a few years now. I just pay for the additional receivers.
> 
> So, any idea if the HR10 can record OTA HD without the HD pack? I guess I could get one and try it out.


HR10-250 can record without the HD-Access.. .but you need DVR Services though.


----------



## Maruuk

Just to reiterate my earlier post which quoted DTV directly:

DTV has officially apologized for their shortsightedness with the HR21 and has a third-party company developing post haste an external USB tuner scheduled for "early '08" release.

So even DTV admits they screwed up, that's no longer on the table as an issue anymore. Unless you want to argue ad infinitum with DTV that they DIDN'T screw up! 8^>

There's no argument anymore. They blew it. We know it, they admit it. Now if there was just a way to sub a remote in for the 21 that had a dedicated slo-mo button on it...


----------



## loudo

DanM said:


> Ahh, damn they nickel and dime you don't they? Yeah, I guess I would be grandfathered in, I've had this for a few years now. I just pay for the additional receivers.
> 
> So, any idea if the HR10 can record OTA HD without the HD pack? I guess I could get one and try it out.


I don't believe you need it. The HD pack only opens up the satellite HD channels, the OTA ones are not from the satellites, and are receivable on a non activated unit. I have an HR10-250 now I occasionally use for an OTA tuner, but don't currently have it activated, so I can't test it to let you know for sure.


----------



## harsh

Maruuk said:


> Just to reiterate my earlier post which quoted DTV directly:


Your previous post made reference to a post you saw on an unnamed website. It contained no quotes (direct nor indirect) and named no third party manufacturer of tuner dongles.

I understand your disbelief of the abject stupidity that brought DIRECTV to create such a situation, but you can't be serious about trying to support your case with inaccurate and unverifiable information.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maruuk said:


> Just to reiterate my earlier post which quoted DTV directly:
> 
> DTV has officially apologized for their shortsightedness with the HR21 and has a third-party company developing post haste an external USB tuner scheduled for "early '08" release.
> 
> So even DTV admits they screwed up, that's no longer on the table as an issue anymore. Unless you want to argue ad infinitum with DTV that they DIDN'T screw up! 8^>
> 
> There's no argument anymore. They blew it. We know it, they admit it. Now if there was just a way to sub a remote in for the 21 that had a dedicated slo-mo button on it...


I believe these statements to be gross mischaracterizations of what happened. Before I was able to start this thread in October, I was aware work was underway. I can't say how long, nor what efforts were underway. I will say there was not a "panic", a feeling of "Screwed up", or anything along those lines. Nor a "post haste" development effort.

My guess is they had to get the HR21 stabilized as a platform, up to the recent software feature set, then the OTA solution would be along in due course.

You are welcome to hold to your opinions, as is everyone else, of course. I believe they are somewhat incorrect in how they represent what probably happened.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## JBernardK

I thought Directv now required any HD cabable reciever to have the HD Access package whether you wanted it or not. Is that true? I know you can't remove it from your package via the web site.

I have always found it interesting that cable, started as an analog service, charges extra for digital service (sometimes per outlet). Directv, started as a digital satellite SD service does not charge extra for digital, but charger extra for HD and locals. Verizon FIOS, which started as a digital HD service does not charge extra for anything.


----------



## General Custer

Earl Bonovich said:


> Lets make this clear though:
> DirecTV will not guarantee you either model... HR20 or HR21.
> To them... it is the HD-DVR.


This just helps those who argue for a class action type law suit since some HD-DVRs come with one feature set and others do not. They are substituting 2 differents versions of equipment ordered under the same brand name- HD Plus DVR. They especially will get into trouble when someone with an HD DVR (HR20 needing OTA) calls for a replacement and is sent an HD DVR (HR21) and feels slighted. This is going to happen as you say and eventually someone is going to call a lawyer. There is always someone who does. Directv should cover their ass and sort out the inventroy or rename the HR21 to avoid this. A jury of Joe six packs will clearly see that the 2 models have the same name but different features. All they have to know is there is one less input jack on the back of the box to decide its not the same.

If directv can keep track of inventory with regards to stand def receiver, standard def dvr, hd receiver and hd DVR, they should be able to keep track of all of these plus or minus OTA capability.

As an aside, if legislation ever goes into effect that they have to provide ALL local HD programming or sub-channels , then you'll see how fast they re-integrate OTA back into their boxes. HD is sort of an add on right now. Must carry invloves sd local programming. When everyone goes digital and the analogs are shut off, there could be a push for must carry HD specifically.


----------



## carl6

General Custer said:


> When everyone goes digital and the analogs are shut off, there could be a push for must carry HD specifically.


Why? Nothing says digital has to be HD. We've been through that debate several times already.

As to OTA, I expect there to be an OTA solution for the HR21 before Feb 2009. I have no specific knowledge other than what has been posted right here on DBSTalk.com to substantiate that, it is just my expectation.

As to lawyers and litigation. the latter exists to make the former rich. Very little benefit comes to anyone else in most cases.

Carl


----------



## General Custer

carl6 said:


> Why? Nothing says digital has to be HD. We've been through that debate several times already.
> 
> As to OTA, I expect there to be an OTA solution for the HR21 before Feb 2009. I have no specific knowledge other than what has been posted right here on DBSTalk.com to substantiate that, it is just my expectation.
> 
> As to lawyers and litigation. the latter exists to make the former rich. Very little benefit comes to anyone else in most cases.
> 
> Carl


Never said digital=HD.

All I am saying is that the law could change because the only OTA viwers will be digital OTA viewers. Now HD and digital OTA are a small fraction of the viewing public.Broadcasters have protectin for the vast majority of their business analog OTA signals. When the switch is made, the only OTA viewers will be those watching digital broadcasts. There may be a push by the broadcasters to mandate carriage of all stations and all subchannels. These broadcasters could then ask for the a must carry for hd feeds as well.

For example if that were to happen, here in NY Directv would have to pony up and carry My TV 9 HD and the CW HD which they don't as well as the channel 4, 5 and 7 subchannels to name a few. If they were sending out all HR20s it wouldnt be a problem.

I also wasn't saying that I wanted a law suit. The lawyers take home most of the booty anyway.

What I was saying is that they are setting themselves up for one, right or wrong.


----------



## Maruuk

And what pray tell validates anything you guys are saying??? You DTV lickspittles are all chatbots for all I can tell. Software-generated corporate talking points generators. That's pretty funny--expecting everything on the net to be "validated"! It is to laugh.

Believe what you want. I quoted DTV's statement directly in the post earlier in this thread. Not my words. Call em yourself, knock yerself out.

In the meantime, I have great _non-recordable_ OTA HD using the DIY Terk clip-on antenna system I referenced earlier. Anybody needs an update on that, let me know. Of course, the info can't be VALIDATED! hehehehe

You nattering nabobs of negativism slay me. 8^>


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> And what pray tell validates anything you guys are saying??? You DTV lickspittles are all chatbots for all I can tell. Software-generated corporate talking points generators. That's pretty funny--expecting everything on the net to be "validated"! It is to laugh.
> 
> Believe what you want. I quoted DTV's statement directly in the post earlier in this thread. Not my words. Call em yourself, knock yerself out.
> 
> In the meantime, I have great _non-recordable_ OTA HD using the DIY Terk clip-on antenna system I referenced earlier. Anybody needs an update on that, let me know. Of course, the info can't be VALIDATED! hehehehe
> 
> You nattering nabobs of negativism slay me. 8^>


All we are asking for is a linkable source for your quote from DirecTV...
That's it.

If you are basing it off a phone conversation with a CSR... they say so.

And asking for validation to a rumor... especially on something like this... yes, that is pretty much the norm.


----------



## adam1115

Earl Bonovich said:


> Umm... the HR21 didn't have OTA... so they didn't rip anything out of it.
> You can still obtain an HR20 if you wanted to.


Ripped it out of the design, replaced the HR20 sticker with an HR21 sticker, make 30 cents more per DVR.

Why should I bend over backwards to buy a discontinued model and commit to 2 years when they dropped their commitment for OTA support?

They bottom line is that they don't provide all of the OTA content via satellite. They used to with OTA support. They don't care. You don't care. Fine. But they won't have me as a customer...


----------



## mhayes70

adam1115 said:


> Ripped it out of the design, replaced the HR20 sticker with an HR21 sticker, make 30 cents more per DVR.
> 
> Why should I bend over backwards to buy a discontinued model and commit to 2 years when they dropped their commitment for OTA support?
> 
> They bottom line is that they don't provide all of the OTA content via satellite. They used to with OTA support. They don't care. You don't care. Fine. But they won't have me as a customer...


:nono2: Good luck on finding someone that carries all OTA content via there system.

I have never seen anything anywhere that they made a commitment to support OTA. Can you show me where they did?


----------



## say-what

adam1115 said:


> Why should I bend over backwards to buy a discontinued model and commit to 2 years when they dropped their commitment for OTA support?


The HR20 is not discontinued. The HR20-700 has ceased production, but the HR20-100 continues.

I have 2 HR20-700's and I fully expect that DIrecTV will continue to support those units well into the future. Afterall, they're still developing new features for the HR20's as I type this.....


----------



## TigerDriver

NOTE: I transcribed this post from notes I took at about 2am (my friend lives on the west coast), and I had to creatively reconstruct some of them today. Some stuff probably got lost during transcription.

Last night I had an interesting conversation with a former colleague. He's a Ph. D. in Electrical Engineering with an MBA. He does strategic business consulting for technical companies. Without naming names, he discussed the stress on the TV industry caused by the FAA-mandated conversion of television broadcasts to Digital TV.

Unlike other technological advances in telecommunications (color TV, FM stereo), the FAA made no attempt to make the new digital technology backwardly compatible with the old. Moreover, the FAA took the unprecedented step of decommissioning the old technology. In other words, after Feb 12, 2009 your existing TV will be useless without a digital-to-analog converter.

Although we spoke in general terms, the same problems exists for satellite and cable companies. Here's my extrapolation from our conversation as it relates to D*.

On February 17, 2009, Digital (high definition) content is mandated on all FAA regulated broadcasts, and analog broadcasts are forbidden. Although non-broadcast (i.e., "cable") networks are not regulated via the FCC, the majors have announced that they will provide HD versions of their programming at no premium over the SD versions; many majors have announced that their SD versions will be discontinued at the end of 2009.

Because there will be no alternative to digital programming on broadcast networks on February 17, 2009, and non-broadcast networks will provide it without premium, D*s revenue currently derived from surcharging HD content is doomed. Although it's possible for D* to down-convert HD content to 480p, such content would be costly to provide, and most important, put D* at a distinct competitive disadvantage--not to mention create a potential PR nightmare.

So, in early 2009, D* will lose the revenue stream currently provided by their HD package. The first business question is how to replace these revenues and the second is how to leverage the new landscape into new revenues.

The best source of new revenue comes from an unexpected source: conventional OTA programming. D* until recently built the hardware support (dual ATSC tuners) into its receivers, but received no revenue benefit from it.

Here's how D* will use OTA/network programming to replace the revenue it will eventually lose from premiums on HD packages.


 Stop selling receivers with ATSC tuners.

 When building (or refurbishing) units that have ATSC tuners, make certain that the tuners can be enabled/disabled by D* command.

 Build an external, optional ATSC tuner that that can be sold or leased to customers who want OTA content.

 After an extensive and intense ad campaign preparing existing customers for the new scheme, disable all *unsubscribed* ATSC tuners. Have lots of CSRs standing by.

When these steps are completed, the basic programming package will not include local programming and, without NTSC tuners, no HD OTA broadcast network programming. Remember, though, that users who don't subscribe to the OTA package described below can still plug their antennas into their TV and enjoy all network shows and get local news, commercials, etc. What D* hopes to sell is the right to record this content on their (D*-owned) DVR.

The OTA revenue options:


Spot-beams of locals (if available). As spot beams are satellite based, the price of this option may become very expensive.

Users who have receivers with on-board OTA tuners (e.g., HR10, HR20) can re-activate them as a programming option. Hi-value customers may be grandfathered in at no cost.

Users whose receivers have no on-board OTA tuners (e.g., HR21) can lease external hardware (probably USB-based) from D*; the lease fees will include the content option in option 2.

Negotiations are in progress with "more than one" network to provide commercial-free prime-time network programming via subscription VOD. The programming would be time-shifted to avoid conflicts with broadcast prime-time and some ambiguous FCC regulations. The network subscriptions would be similar to those for current "premium" networks such as HBO, and would incorporate a revenue-sharing component. There has also been some talk about selling _commercial-free_ prime-time network subscriptions, but viable revenue models have not yet been found ; IOW, networks would lose more from loss of advertising revenue than they'd gain from commissions on sales of commercial-free content.

If even part of this is true, it is a fascinating (and ballsy) strategy.


----------



## hasan

This whole business has been (as the lawyers say, when they object), "Asked and Answered". The add-on OTA has been promised. See Stuart's original post and his recent (last page or so) summary follow-up. 

Let's not put ourselves into the situation of not being able to take "yes" for an answer. No one wants a "yes" answer more than I do (see my posting record), but this incessant carping over something that has been promised to be resolved is silly.
(on both sides)

If the goal is to get OTA back into things, we're close. If, on the other hand, we just want to prove the other side wrong, and extract our pound of flesh, well....I have neither the time nor the inclination....nor will anyone succeed as the volume and content of the posts in this thread readily confirm.


----------



## Maruuk

Anyways, we now have two statements from DTV: One in which they promise a forthcoming fix. And a follow-up in which they reveal the specific fix, even mentioning the third-party company building the tuner. What is so controversial about this? They messed up, are scrambling to rectify the mess they created, and are even supplying a rough delivery time frame.

Game over, dudes.


----------



## mhayes70

Maruuk said:


> Anyways, we now have two statements from DTV: One in which they promise a forthcoming fix. And a follow-up in which they reveal the specific fix, even mentioning the third-party company building the tuner. What is so controversial about this? They messed up, are scrambling to rectify the mess they created, and are even supplying a rough delivery time frame.
> 
> Game over, dudes.


Exactly and Thank you!


----------



## Tom Robertson

What game is what over?
What scrambling? My first post was 3 months ago. This solution has been planned for some time before that.

DIRECTV does care about users who want OTA, apparently about 10% of the DIRECTV populace. Not a small number by any means, then again, not the earth shattering mass populace either.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

adam1115 said:


> Ripped it out of the design, replaced the HR20 sticker with an HR21 sticker, make 30 cents more per DVR.
> 
> Why should I bend over backwards to buy a discontinued model and commit to 2 years when they dropped their commitment for OTA support?
> 
> They bottom line is that they don't provide all of the OTA content via satellite. They used to with OTA support. They don't care. You don't care. Fine. But they won't have me as a customer...


30 cents?

Try multiple magnitudes higher then that...

And it is not "making" more, just reducing their loss.
They still take a loss on the hardware, even after the reduced cost.

You shouldn't... don't bend over backwards... go find the technology that you want. Do you still have OTA on the system you have? Or did they magically take that away to?

OTA is no longer is not as critical as it was 4 years ago, or 2 years ago, when design on the HR20 was started...

For every 1 customer they lose because of the loss of OTA... my guess is they gain several more, because of what is available via the SAT.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Anyways, we now have two statements from DTV: One in which they promise a forthcoming fix. And a follow-up in which they reveal the specific fix, even mentioning the third-party company building the tuner. What is so controversial about this? They messed up, are scrambling to rectify the mess they created, and are even supplying a rough delivery time frame.
> 
> Game over, dudes.


Please
Link us to the statement made by DirecTV on who is making them?
And it is hardly a scramble....

But hey... what do I know.


----------



## Maruuk

Tiger--wow, great pickup on that scheme! Whatever it is, it's highly plausible. I love it, DTV DEACTIVATES the HR20 OTA tuners! How ironic. But wouldn't a far simpler solution to lost revenues be to simply raise their rates overall?

What makes this story so credible is that the major nets are all getting killed by the commercial-skip DVR syndrome. Even the lousy :30 rush-forwards one on the HR21 pretty much negates the ads. So the nets are being forced to generate revenues in new, PPV-style modes. The beauty of that for us content-wise is that they will have to start competing against the HBOs, they can't keep feeding us Dancing with the Celebutards and expect us to pay for it.


----------



## TigerDriver

Tom Robertson said:


> users who want OTA, apparently about 10% of the DIRECTV populace. Not a small number by any means, then again, not the earth shattering mass populace either.


Any idea the percentage who get HD locals via spotbeam?


----------



## Tom Robertson

TigerDriver said:


> ...
> Last night I had an interesting conversation with a former colleague. He's a Ph. D. in Electrical Engineering with an MBA. He does strategic business consulting for technical companies. Without naming names, he discussed the stress on the TV industry caDigital used by the FAA-mandated conversion of television broadcasts to TV.
> 
> Unlike other technological advances in telecommunications (color TV, FM stereo), the FAA made no attempt to make the new digital technology backwardly compatible with the old. Moreover, the FAA took the unprecedented step of decommissioning the old technology. In other words, after Feb 12, 2009 your existing TV will be useless without a digital-to-analog converter.
> 
> Although we spoke in general terms, the same problems exists for satellite and cable companies. Here's my extrapolation from our conversation as it relates to D*.
> 
> On February 17, 2009, Digital (high definition) content is mandated on all FAA regulated broadcasts, and analog broadcasts are forbidden. Although non-broadcast (i.e., "cable") networks are not regulated via the FCC, the majors have announced that they will provide HD versions of their programming at no premium over the SD versions; many majors have announced that their SD versions will be discontinued at the end of 2009.
> 
> Because there will be no alternative to digital programming on broadcast networks on February 17, 2009, and non-broadcast networks will provide it without premium, D*s revenue currently derived from surcharging HD content is doomed. Although it's possible for D* to down-convert HD content to 480p, such content would be costly to provide, and most important, put D* at a distinct competitive disadvantage--not to mention create a potential PR nightmare.
> 
> So, in early 2009, D* will lose the revenue stream currently provided by their HD package. The first business question is how to replace these revenues and the second is how to leverage the new landscape into new revenues.
> 
> The best source of new revenue comes from an unexpected source: conventional OTA programming. D* until recently built the hardware support (dual ATSC tuners) into its receivers, but received no revenue benefit from it.
> 
> Here's how D* will use OTA/network programming to replace the revenue it will eventually lose from premiums on HD packages.
> 
> 
> Stop selling receivers with ATSC tuners.
> 
> When building (or refurbishing) units that have ATSC tuners, make certain that the tuners can be enabled/disabled by D* command.
> 
> Build an external, optional ATSC tuner that that can be sold or leased to customers who want OTA content.
> 
> After an extensive and intense ad campaign preparing existing customers for the new scheme, disable all *unsubscribed* ATSC tuners. Have lots of CSRs standing by.
> 
> When these steps are completed, the basic programming package will not include local programming and, without NTSC tuners, no HD OTA broadcast network programming. Remember, though, that users who don't subscribe to the OTA package described below can still plug their antennas into their TV and enjoy all network shows and get local news, commercials, etc. What D* hopes to sell is the right to record this content on their (D*-owned) DVR.
> 
> The OTA revenue options:
> 
> 
> Spot-beams of locals (if available). As spot beams are satellite based, the price of this option may become very expensive.
> 
> Users who have receivers with on-board OTA tuners (e.g., HR10, HR20) can re-activate them as a programming option. Hi-value customers may be grandfathered in at no cost.
> 
> Users whose receivers have no on-board OTA tuners (e.g., HR21) can lease external hardware (probably USB-based) from D*; the lease fees will include the content option in option 2.
> 
> Negotiations are in progress with "more than one" network to provide commercial-free prime-time network programming via subscription VOD. The programming would be time-shifted to avoid conflicts with broadcast prime-time and some ambiguous FCC regulations. The network subscriptions would be similar to those for current "premium" networks such as HBO, and would incorporate a revenue-sharing component. There has also been some talk about selling _commercial-free_ prime-time network subscriptions, but viable revenue models have not yet been found ; IOW, networks would lose more from loss of advertising revenue than they'd gain from commissions on sales of commercial-free content.
> 
> If even part of this is true, it is a fascinating (and ballsy) strategy.


Yes the FCC mandated this change, which will occur on February 17, 2009.
No looking backward or backward compatibility for broadcast channels.
Nothing requires any changes to Cable channels by mandate. Just by user demand. 

DIRECTV will eventually adjust there price models again, but they do that all the time. February 17, 2009 itself won't likely be a major date on their model as they will still have MANY SD channels and HD channels.

DIRECTV already has spotbeam capacity built into their pricing models. (Just as DishNetwork and local cable companies have pricing for locals built into their models.)

Yes, the FCC's move was VERY ballsy, but IMHO needed to happen if Digital TV was ever going to move forward. Many details of this long process can be found at www.dtv.gov. 

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

TigerDriver said:


> Any idea the percentage who get HD locals via spotbeam?


Not nearly enough yet, IMHO.  That said, it isn't all DIRECTVs fault, some companies choose to require DIRECTV to pay to carry the HD channel. Negotiations continue, I expect. 

As of now, about 70% of the population has access to DIRECTV HD locals. That doesn't mean they all get all their local channels; a major part of the need for OTA on the receivers. And why DIRECTV is taking steps to ensure the people who want OTA can get OTA.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Maruuk

The gotcha aspect of this locals deal is: The FCC in its divine wisdom insists that distant net access is blocked to folks who can get that net locally OTA. But if DTV doesn't provide you with a means to receive and record OTA, you're stymied for the nets altogether. That's nasty. And probably why DTV is scrambling to put things right.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> The gotcha aspect of this locals deal is: The FCC in its divine wisdom insists that distant net access is blocked to folks who can get that net locally OTA. But if DTV doesn't provide you with a means to receive and record OTA, you're stymied for the nets altogether. That's nasty. And probably why DTV is scrambling to put things right.


What has DirecTV done that has stopped you from obtaining technology to do what you want?

Why is it that DirecTV has to provide you the equipment to access a signal that is not theirs?


----------



## say-what

Maruuk said:


> The gotcha aspect of this locals deal is: The FCC in its divine wisdom insists that distant net access is blocked to folks who can get that net locally OTA. But if DTV doesn't provide you with a means to receive and record OTA, you're stymied for the nets altogether. That's nasty. And probably why DTV is scrambling to put things right.


Why is it DirecTV's obligation to provide you with an OTA solution? Cable sure doesn't for those locals they don't yet carry. It's your obligation to have a digital OTA tuner - that's why the gov't will provide you with a $40 coupon to get one for your TV.


----------



## TigerDriver

Maruuk said:


> Tiger--wow, great pickup on that scheme! Whatever it is, it's highly plausible. I love it, DTV DEACTIVATES the HR20 OTA tuners! How ironic. But wouldn't a far simpler solution to lost revenues be to simply raise their rates overall?
> 
> What makes this story so credible is that the major nets are all getting killed by the commercial-skip DVR syndrome. Even the lousy :30 rush-forwards one on the HR21 pretty much negates the ads. So the nets are being forced to generate revenues in new, PPV-style modes. The beauty of that for us content-wise is that they will have to start competing against the HBOs, they can't keep feeding us Dancing with the Celebutards and expect us to pay for it.


A close reading of this yields lots of stuff. Charging customers to record free shows on their rented (leased DVR) is revolutionary.

Unless there's legislation to remove the FF button from the DVR, the commerical TV industry has got to find a way to generate revenue out of the content they produce. Networks sell ad time based upon popularity (size of viewers). But the advertizers know we blow through the commercials, so have NO IDEA how to measure whether what they're getting for their buck. Selling the shows direct to the public is gonna happen...I don't know how much it would be worth, but I'd definitely be willing to pay a premium for network shows with commercials removed.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why is it that DirecTV has to provide you the equipment to access a signal that is not theirs?


Oh, come now, Earl. That's a ridiculous question. Almost none of the signals are DirecTV's; yet they provide the equipment to receive the signals that are created and beamed by others. OTA really isn't any different from the dozens of other networks/providers out there.


----------



## carl6

TigerDriver said:


> Unlike other technological advances in telecommunications (color TV, FM stereo), the FAA made no attempt to make the new digital technology backwardly compatible with the old. Moreover, the FAA took the unprecedented step of decommissioning the old technology. In other words, after Feb 12, 2009 your existing TV will be useless without a digital-to-analog converter.




Obviously you meant FCC, not FAA.


TigerDriver said:


> On February 17, 2009, Digital (high definition) content is mandated on all FAA regulated broadcasts, and analog broadcasts are forbidden.


Digtal yes, high def, no. There is no mandate for high definition.


TigerDriver said:


> Because there will be no alternative to digital programming on broadcast networks on February 17, 2009, and non-broadcast networks will provide it without premium, D*s revenue currently derived from surcharging HD content is doomed.


Again, you are incorrectly mixing digital and HD. However, as HD becomes much more prevelant (and it might by Feb 2009, but then again it might not), the entire pricing scheme of cable and satellite is liable to change. No surprise there.



TigerDriver said:


> The best source of new revenue comes from an unexpected source: conventional OTA programming. D* until recently built the hardware support (dual ATSC tuners) into its receivers, but received no revenue benefit from it.
> 
> Here's how D* will use OTA/network programming to replace the revenue it will eventually lose from premiums on HD packages.
> 
> ... deleted a lot for brevity ...
> 
> What D* hopes to sell is the right to record this content on their (D*-owned) DVR.


That is exactly where they are at today. OTA reception and recording of HD locals is an added benefit that is only available if you subscribe to both the DVR service and the HD service. What is the surprise in this?

Most of your educated friends assumptions appear to be focused on DirecTV revenue as a result of the customer being able to record local station service. While providing locals (both SD and HD primarily via spot beams which is what they ARE doing right now) is important, the more important revenue stream for DirecTV is all of the other probramming they offer.

Look at DirecTV's standard definition offerings. NONE of their SD products has OTA tuners, and no one has ever made an issue out of it. We are talking about what, probably 85% of the customer base here? They get their locals just fine via spot beams, and if they have DVR service, can record them.

DirecTV will soon have the ability to offer HD locals (via spot beams) everyplace they now offer SD locals as soon as the next satellite is operational, which should be in the first half of next year (essentially within the next six months). At that point in time, the OTA argument/requirement becomes much less significant.

At the point in time the HR21 (which lacks OTA tuners) was on the drawing board, it's planned availability date coincided with having all local market HD offerings available via satellite. There is now a small gap in that timing, which makes the HR21 fall short, for a little while, as some of the markets that will soon have HD locals via satellite still require OTA today. Once they have HD via satellite, the OTA need on the HD equipment will be no greater than it is on the SD equipment (where it has never existed).

Carl


----------



## Mike728

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why is it that DirecTV has to provide you the equipment to access a signal that is not theirs?


I understand your point, but since they've been doing it for so long, it's kind of expected. If it was never offered, this wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## TigerDriver

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why is it that DirecTV has to provide you the equipment to access a signal that is not theirs?


The answer is that they don't. But then DirecTV doesn't get to set customer demands and expectations, which are often unreasonable and inconvenient.

If the market wants network shows in HD and wants to record them on their DVR, DirecTV will find a way to satisfy that marketing requirement. Charging extra for that capability is a perfectly legitimate approach.


----------



## Maruuk

Neither do they have an obligation to provide a FF, or rewind, or even a record button on my remote. The obligation argument is circular logic, a meaningless exercise.

They have an obligation to maintain established standards of service and utility. They failed, admitted it, and are scrambling to rectify the situation.

But as Tiger has revealed, the smiling, obsequious Senator Palpatine of the soon-to-be-delivered USB OTA receiver will soon become the enshrouded, menacing Emperor Palpatine of the OTA PPV DTV Empire. Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi!


----------



## TigerDriver

carl6 said:


> Obviously you meant FCC, not FAA.


A Freudian slip if there ever was one. As a pilot and an engineer, I can tell you that the FAA would never have done anything so rational as disallow ovelap in communications infrastructure.

And of course digital is not synonymous with hi-def, but there is tight binding of the the latter to the former.

I was pretty bleary-eyed when I finished talking.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Actually, the FCC did allow overlap in communications infrastructure. I get both OTA Digital and OTA analogue right now.


----------



## TigerDriver

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually, the FCC did allow overlap in communications infrastructure. I get both OTA Digital and OTA analogue right now.


I should have said "indefinite overlap."
I meant that the FCC declared a date at which the old technology must go extinct, not just vestigial--something the FAA doesn't do.


----------



## General Custer

The powers that be need to require that satellite TV be treated like cable with a version of the cable card system mandated. This way Directv would become more responsive to their customers needs. 

They don't want to include OTA or DLB. Fine. 
You can't create a distribution system that lets you specify the exact model of dvr your customer wants. Fine. 

Rent an access card from them and take your hardware dollars to TIVO or Apple or whoever else offers these features or any others that a customer deems important. 

Competition would be a good thing. 

Maybe someone would create a set-top box that would allow you to access Satellite programming from either provider, OTA, cable, Fios and the net. You could potentially buy pieces of programming from each provider.


----------



## loudo

Mike728 said:


> I understand your point, but since they've been doing it for so long, it's kind of expected. If it was never offered, this wouldn't be an issue.


Mike, you hit the nail right on the head. The reason for all of the concern is because we have had OTA tuners since the first E8 HD receiver came out, and now it is going away, with the new HR21. If we would have not had it from the beginning, this thread wouldn't be here, as we would have all found alternative ways to get the HD and digitals OTA.

On the other hand my reason for making the switch from C-Band to DirecTV, years ago, was because they had an OTA tuner built into the E8 HD tuner, and I wanted HD locals as soon as they came out. I am sure that is one reason why many others made the move also.

This is not the first feature that has been dropped when a new model came out, I remember when we went from the Hughes HTL-HD to the H10, a lot of features we felt were nice were re-moved. As I remember some of them were:
1. No lighted remote.
2. No OTA analog locals.
3. You can't control a VCR from the receiver, like you can with the HTL-HD.
4. The ability to look at the receiver and see what channel you are on.
5. The ability to shut your TV off, while on XM radio, and see what song is playing, in the receiver window.
6. The ability to connect your OTA antenna and your cable to the receiver at the same time.

But in time we got over it, as I am sure we all will with the removal of the OTA tuner. We will have alternative ways to get our OTA fix.


----------



## harsh

Maruuk said:


> I quoted DTV's statement directly in the post earlier in this thread. Not my words.


Are you sure that the "quote" in post 672 is from DIRECTV and not from someone else? Who was the target audience? Where did you come by the "quote"?

I'm about as far from a DIRECTV apologist as you can get.


----------



## Maruuk

I can't be sure that anything on the net is valid until I see it happen with my own eyes. What I can do is piece things together that make sense, like the first statement followed by the second. The wording and attitude are consistent, and the 3rd party company is real. Beyond that, I leave it up to you guys to play lawyer with the data. I don't have time to participate in a simulated courtroom drama in here.


----------



## arob

I live in Oakland, CA in the hills. I have line of sight across the SF Bay to the transmission towers and get 20+ OTA signals. I get 85+ signal strength on all of them. I'm not willing to give them up. WB broadcasts some shows in HD which I record OTA on my HR10-250's. To my knowledge D* is not provding this yet in HD (I could be wrong). 

I cancelled my install of a 5LNB and 2 -DVR install for Monday (all free) as the local install co. said they had no HR20's. Bummer. Hopefully enough people like myself will be cancelling and D* will get the picture.

I could live with the HR21 if I knew I would get all the same local HD I get from OTA. Until then there is no benefit. I'll cross my fingers for FIOS or some other better offering.


----------



## Doug Brott

arob said:


> I cancelled my install of a 5LNB and 2 -DVR install for Monday (all free) as the local install co. said they had no HR20's. Bummer. Hopefully enough people like myself will be cancelling and D* will get the picture.


For $5/month you could have taken the free upgrade and waited for the OTA solution to be available for the HR21 .. just keep the HR10 active for now. I too am in the bay area, but being on the back side of a mountain keeps me from getting any OTA signals, alas.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> Oh, come now, Earl. That's a ridiculous question. Almost none of the signals are DirecTV's; yet they provide the equipment to receive the signals that are created and beamed by others. OTA really isn't any different from the dozens of other networks/providers out there.


So they should be responsible for a signal source, that they have no control over?

DirecTV is a content carrier/distributor.
Except for the 101... they don't create the content.

Who get's the support calls first if the OTA signal is having issues... on a DirecTV receiver?

And is very different (IMHO). Since they can't just supply one set of feeds... they have support each and ever DMA independently of one another... because of the laws.

There is the royalties on the ATSC tuners...
There is the cost for the Guide Data....
There is the development of software to handle the tuners, and any issues that arrise...

Ect.... with what in return?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

And again...

Where has this uproar been for the last 10ish years.....
There haven't been any NTSC tuners in any of their DVRs...
And I think (the last time I asked this) there was only two receivers that had an NTSC tuner....

Where was the outcry and demand for NTSC...
And why is ATSC so different?


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Who get's the support calls first if the OTA signal is having issues... on a DirecTV receiver?


And who gets the calls when a non-OTA signal is having issues? There is no difference.

Sorry, but your argument fails due to lack of consistency.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> And who gets the calls when a non-OTA signal is having issues? There is no difference.
> 
> Sorry, but your argument fails due to lack of consistency.


We are going to have to agree to disagree.

It would be identical to me purchasing an XMRadio and be upset that it has issues receiving an FM/AM signal on it.

There are so many factors involved with the signal out of their control... that could be the issue...


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> We are going to have to agree to disagree.


That's fine. As a veteran NCAA Umpire, I expect it. People disagree all the time with my being correct. 

However, the XM comparison isn't proper, because the music coming from XM is generated by them from their studios in D.C. DirecTV simply retransmits what's sent to them, whether it be OTA or non-OTA. You're still continuing to compare apples and oranges.


----------



## General Custer

Earl Bonovich said:


> And again...
> 
> Where has this uproar been for the last 10ish years.....
> There haven't been any NTSC tuners in any of their DVRs...
> And I think (the last time I asked this) there was only two receivers that had an NTSC tuner....
> 
> Where was the outcry and demand for NTSC...
> And why is ATSC so different?


Think about it for a second.

The difference is that ATSC provides HD signals in most markets with better picture quality and a more complete offering then what directv can provide. If directv provided all of the nations HD channels with all of the sub channels in all of the markets, most would not complain about the lack of OTA. Some would still want it for rain fade issues.

In the past early adopters to satellite would keep a basic cable package for a few bucks a month to get all of their local channels. No one wants to have to have a 2 box solution at this time.


----------



## bhelton71

Earl Bonovich said:


> And again...
> 
> Where has this uproar been for the last 10ish years.....
> There haven't been any NTSC tuners in any of their DVRs...
> And I think (the last time I asked this) there was only two receivers that had an NTSC tuner....
> 
> Where was the outcry and demand for NTSC...
> And why is ATSC so different?


Just a theory - I think when DVR's first came out (around 99 I think) we (ie the US) were well on our way to the DTV transition. So any forward looking product (and I would characterize most of DirecTv's DVR offerings to be forward looking - the HR10-250 for example was way ahead of the curve) would be better served to just have ATSC. But then the delays started - now we have all of these hybrid devices cropping up.

I personally did not miss NTSC tuners in my first DVR (DSR 704). I was getting the major channels in my area off of satellite. When I bought an HDTV - I bought an HR10. The HR10 obviously had ATSC tuners so I setup an antenna and got my channels that way. Improved picture and sound were the compelling factors. Fast forward to now - DirecTv is only able to provide 3 of the 6 they originally gave me - thru no fault of theirs I am sure ( 2 are a particular corporation - 3 letters starting with L). So I do use off air still to supplement the current offering. I don't necessarily expect anything - but I would appreciate any effort they make to keep my current service as close to my original service. I only ever watched 1 sub-channel - the Tube - and it is gone now so really if they get the other 2 channels ( I don't ever actually watch UPN so thats not an issue for me - the other 2 are CBS and CW) on satellite - I would have no reason for an off-air input.

Hopefully the analog shutoff will 'force' the issue with holdouts.


----------



## jdcolombo

Earl Bonovich said:


> We are going to have to agree to disagree.
> 
> It would be identical to me purchasing an XMRadio and be upset that it has issues receiving an FM/AM signal on it.
> 
> There are so many factors involved with the signal out of their control... that could be the issue...


Earl, it's not like this at all. We both know that DirecTV decided to include OTA tuners so they could market a one-box solution as a competitive advantage or at least match the convenience of the "one box solution" that cable systems provide. They clearly received an economic benefit from being able to do so, or else they wouldn't have done it in the first place. A more appropriate analogy would be that XM decides to market a radio that gets both XM and AM-FM because they know consumers hate having two radios in their car, and would much prefer having only one radio. Having gotten an economic benefit from doing so (getting consumers to buy their "one box radio"), they shouldn't complain about customer service calls from poor AM-FM reception. What did they think would happen? And they sold all those radios that they wouldn't have sold without the one-box solution.

Here's another analogy. One day GM decides to build a car with a new-fangled device called a radio in it. GM does that because it believes that having a radio in their cars gives them a competitive advantage to attract new customers, even though GM doesn't own any radio stations and makes virtually no money on the radio hardware. In fact, however, customers are attracted to cars with radios and buy them in droves. Then one day GM says "No more radios. People with static on their radios have been calling us for service, when it's really the radio station's fault, not ours; radios break, and then we get blamed for it, even though it doesn't affect the performance of the car; it's cheaper to build cars without radios; etc." Only it turns out that folks have gotten so attached to radios that they get really mad at GM for its decision.

GM has no obligation to provide cars with radios, but it can hardly complain when people get pissed off about no longer being able to get a radio. And it doesn't help that GM tells folks they can simply get a portable radio and take it with them in their car; portable radios aren't as convenient for the consumer; now that they've had a taste of an integrated radio in the car, they don't want to mess with a portable radio sitting on the seat. It's true, of course, that before GM started including radios, no one much cared. But now they do. If GM doesn't want to provide radios, fine, but they can hardly blame the consumer for being mad at them or somehow try to make it the consumer's fault that they got attached to having radios and now want radios.

If DirecTV wants to eliminate OTA from their receivers, it is of course within their discretion to do so. But don't whine about my getting mad about it.

John C.


----------



## Maruuk

Add to that a guy who buys a Pontiac Vibe. GM says call us and schedule a delivery to your door of your new Vibe. Vibes have always had AM/FM radios even in base form. The car shows up, it's called a Pontiac Vibe. It's looks the same as any other Vibe. The delivery guy leaves, and then the new owner discovers to his shock there's no radio. But he's stuck with the car.

My DTV installer had no idea about model numbers. It was just a generic box to him. He did know you couldn't run an OTA antenna off it anymore.

I always apply the jury system in cases like this: "What was the reasonable expectation of the consumer in this situation? Did company X deliver a product at significant variance with a reasonable set of expectations of the consumer?"

Juries care far less about crossed t's and dotted i's than basic fairness. And in real life, contracts count less than handshakes. The DBSTalk jury's verdict is in, and DTV is prepared to make restitution. As my lawyer friend would say, if both sides are equally unhappy, justice has been done.


----------



## houskamp

jdcolombo said:


> Earl, it's not like this at all. We both know that DirecTV decided to include OTA tuners so they could market a one-box solution as a competitive advantage or at least match the convenience of the "one box solution" that cable systems provide. They clearly received an economic benefit from being able to do so, or else they wouldn't have done it in the first place. A more appropriate analogy would be that XM decides to market a radio that gets both XM and AM-FM because they know consumers hate having two radios in their car, and would much prefer having only one radio. Having gotten an economic benefit from doing so (getting consumers to buy their "one box radio"), they shouldn't complain about customer service calls from poor AM-FM reception. What did they think would happen? And they sold all those radios that they wouldn't have sold without the one-box solution.
> 
> Here's another analogy. One day GM decides to build a car with a new-fangled device called a radio in it. GM does that because it believes that having a radio in their cars gives them a competitive advantage to attract new customers, even though GM doesn't own any radio stations and makes virtually no money on the radio hardware. In fact, however, customers are attracted to cars with radios and buy them in droves. Then one day GM says "No more radios. People with static on their radios have been calling us for service, when it's really the radio station's fault, not ours; radios break, and then we get blamed for it, even though it doesn't affect the performance of the car; it's cheaper to build cars without radios; etc." Only it turns out that folks have gotten so attached to radios that they get really mad at GM for its decision.
> 
> GM has no obligation to provide cars with radios, but it can hardly complain when people get pissed off about no longer being able to get a radio. And it doesn't help that GM tells folks they can simply get a portable radio and take it with them in their car; portable radios aren't as convenient for the consumer; now that they've had a taste of an integrated radio in the car, they don't want to mess with a portable radio sitting on the seat. It's true, of course, that before GM started including radios, no one much cared. But now they do. If GM doesn't want to provide radios, fine, but they can hardly blame the consumer for being mad at them or somehow try to make it the consumer's fault that they got attached to having radios and now want radios.
> 
> If DirecTV wants to eliminate OTA from their receivers, it is of course within their discretion to do so. But don't whine about my getting mad about it.
> 
> John C.


This is problably one of the best analogies I've seen.. Having a one box solution is either the #1 or 2 reason why I have Directv...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jdcolombo said:


> Earl, it's not like this at all. We both know that DirecTV decided to include OTA tuners so they could market a one-box solution as a competitive advantage or at least match the convenience of the "one box solution" that cable systems provide.


And it had nothing to do with at the time of design of the original box (and the original HD boxes)

That vast majority of HD content was via the locals... which were not in the SAT stream yet? But now they are?

That couldn't have anything to do with it?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bhelton71 said:


> Just a theory - I think when DVR's first came out (around 99 I think) we (ie the US) were well on our way to the DTV transition. So any forward looking product (and I would characterize most of DirecTv's DVR offerings to be forward looking - the HR10-250 for example was way ahead of the curve) would be better served to just have ATSC. But then the delays started - now we have all of these hybrid devices cropping up.


In 1999 we were 8 years away from the original Digital Transition date.
So I highly doublt the lack of an NTSC had anything to do with something that wasn't happening for 8+ yeras.

The lack of NTSC tuners had more to do with:
1) The SAT Signal had MUST-CARRY laws, and most DMAs had every channel already up on the SAT
2) The cost of not having to include encoding hardware into the DTiVos, two sets of it to keep up with SAT Stream.



bhelton71 said:


> I personally did not miss NTSC tuners in my first DVR (DSR 704). I was getting the major channels in my area off of satellite.


BINGO!!!!! Because they were on the SAT, which most DMAs are getting their core channels, and that will only expand over time.

And as more of those channels get into the SAT stream... IMHO.
This lack of an ATSC tuner in the HR21... becomes less and less and less of an issue.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alright...

I am going to re-instate my personal ban on this topic...

Here is a recap:

1) DirecTV has launched the H21/HR21 with out ATSC... that is a fact
2) DirecTV is working on ATSC solution for those that MUST have ATSC on their boxes, for what ever reason... that is a fact
3) If you must have ATSC today... contact a RETAILER and secure an HR20
4) If you have an HR20, and need it replaced... DirecTV will attempt to replace it with an HR20.


----------



## General Custer

Earl Bonovich said:


> That vast majority of HD content was via the locals... which were not in the SAT stream yet? But now they are?


"Vast Majority" doesn't cut it.

They need to cover all the HD locals.

I'm in the #1 DMA in the country. Where is the CW in HD, My9, PBS. Can't offer them? Include the OTA tuner. Put them up on the satellite-drop the tuner in NY. Its as simple as that to most of us on here.


----------



## bhunt01

Earl Bonovich said:


> Alright...
> 
> I am going to re-instate my personal ban on this topic...
> 
> Here is a recap:
> 
> 1) DirecTV has launched the H21/HR21 with out ATSC... that is a fact
> 2) DirecTV is working on ATSC solution for those that MUST have ATSC on their boxes, for what ever reason... that is a fact
> 3) If you must have ATSC today... contact a RETAILER and secure an HR20
> 4) If you have an HR20, and need it replaced... DirecTV will attempt to replace it with an HR20.


Earl, under what strange policy do YOU get to decide that if people disagree with you the topic gets banned?

1 - There was a solution
2 - There will be a solution
3 - There is currently no predictable solution

1 is histry - we cannot change it
2 is the future - we strive to make it better
3 is the world we live in


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bhunt01 said:


> Earl, under what strange policy do YOU get to decide that if people disagree with you the topic gets banned?
> 
> 1 - There was a solution
> 2 - There will be a solution
> 3 - There is currently no predictable solution
> 
> 1 is histry - we cannot change it
> 2 is the future - we strive to make it better
> 3 is the world we live in


Where am I banning anyone that disagrees with me?
Or banning the topic?

I stated I am imposing my own personal-ban (as in, I am leaving the discussion again)..


----------



## GP245

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where am I banning anyone that disagrees with me?
> Or banning the topic?
> 
> I stated I am imposing my own personal-ban (as in, I am leaving the discussion again)..


Farewell!


----------



## harsh

Earl Bonovich said:


> 4) If you have an HR20, and need it replaced... DirecTV will attempt to replace it with an HR20.


This seems more like a hope than any kind of DIRECTV company policy.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

harsh said:


> This seems more like a hope than any kind of DIRECTV company policy.


It is their policy... and in a private forum at forums.directv.com... they are specifically ASKING for links to posts, and information for people that receive something other then that...

So they can get it corrected.


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## Earl Bonovich

GP245 said:


> Farewell!


Cute.... Think I am going very far do ya?


----------



## arob

Can someone answer for me whether or not the HR20-100 or 700 are still in production? Are they still making them? Is it their plan to phase them out?


----------



## say-what

arob said:


> Can someone answer for me whether or not the HR20-100 or 700 are still in production? Are they still making them? Is it their plan to phase them out?


-100 is still in production

-700 is not in production


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> DirecTV simply retransmits what's sent to them, whether it be OTA or non-OTA. You're still continuing to compare apples and oranges.


DIRECTV doesn't actually retransmit the OTA .. It comes direct to your home from the antenna of the local station direct to your receiver through an antenna that you are responsible for setting up (DIRECTV no longer sets up antennas for you either).

I think Earl's point on this is that the CSR load is increased because of folks calling about issues with their antenna or perhaps even with the station and DIRECTV has no control over that situation. Would a truck roll to fix an antenna?

Bottom line, though is that DIRECTV will be continuing to service OTA on these boxes. It's just not here yet, so there will be some CSR servicing happening no matter what. What has happened at this point is a barrier has been erected to limit, even farther, the number of people that have OTA as part of their solution. Some number of folks who would have done it for "free" will now not do it because there is (1) a waiting period (now) and (2) it might cost more than zero (we don't know yet).

It's clear that DIRECTV would prefer that you not have OTA. I don't think anyone can argue that point. However, DIRECTV is making a solution available so if you really want it, you'll be able to get it.

There are a number of you in this thread who are really, really angry about this. The HR20 was out and readily available for over a year .. If you do your homework and work at it, you can still get one today .. It's still happening. Sometime you just have to take charge of your own destiny ..


----------



## TigerDriver

Earl Bonovich said:


> And again...
> Where was the outcry and demand for NTSC...
> And why is ATSC so different?


Well, let me think about that for about one millisecond: Because the quality of the SD spotbeams was very close to OTA quality (even better in areas prone to OTA multipath).

Unless I'm missing something, the people screaming about getting an HR21 are those for whom HD spotbeams are unavailable. (I'm in this group, but since I have an HR20 and an HR10, I'm not screaming. )

This brouhaha could have been avoided had D* just maintained two SKUs until all the HD spotbeams were in place. They then could have installed an HR20 or HR21 based upon whether the customer's ZIP code had HD spotbeams. How hard is that? If they had to ship more HR20s than they wished, well, that's a self-inflicted wound due to bad planning and/or execution on the HD spotbeams.

For customers who will never get HD spotbeams or whose spotbeam content is unsatisfactory because of byzantine DMA restrictions, DirecTV will have to provide a permanent OTA solution--for which they're entitled to charge whatever the market will bear.


----------



## jdcolombo

Earl Bonovich said:


> And it had nothing to do with at the time of design of the original box (and the original HD boxes)
> 
> That vast majority of HD content was via the locals... which were not in the SAT stream yet? But now they are?
> 
> That couldn't have anything to do with it?


Of course it had something to do with it - that was the competitive advantage; offer an OTA HD tuner when most of the HD was OTA, so you could get people to buy in to the meager HD offerings from DirecTV at the time. Again, the marketing people surely knew that providing OTA ability would give a competitive advantage and the engineering people surely knew that doing this would be more expensive and result in more service calls.

All I'm saying is that having done it, DirecTV should not now be surprised that people are mad about not having OTA available. The sophisticated folks that first bought in surely know that the sat stream today does not include PBS in any market and also doesn't include several HD channels in big markets (e.g., Chicago, where a number of independent HD channels aren't carried by DirecTV's local HD service). The tenor of your posts on this issue is something along the lines of surprise that people are mad and chastising them for being so. The posts are sort of "Hey, we never made any money on this, it was all a black hole for us, so cut us some slack." Sorry; that's not true. DirecTV did in fact make money from including OTA by sucking people into their service that might otherwise have gone to DISH or cable for a one-box solution.

I'm not disputing DirecTV's right to cut out OTA tuners; but don't blame the consumers for being mad about that decision. Take it like a man and either stick with the decision as the best business decision under the circumstances, or admit it was a marketing mistake and fix it (the latter, apparently, being the choice). Don't try to make the argument that "we did this all for you; where's the love???" DirecTV didn't do it all for us; they did it to make a buck, which they did. No love was part of this deal.

John C.


----------



## Maruuk

Well put!

Our best friends are new services like AT&T's U-verse (which an installer crowed to me yesterday will "kick DTV's ***!"). The more DTV gets its *** kicked, the more they have to kiss ours.


----------



## Racer88

Earl Bonovich said:


> And why is ATSC so different?


Ummmmmm.....because up until recently most all HDTV sets were purposely built WITHOUT ATSC tuners maybe???

...oh and the whole having the tuner integrated into the DVR being a slick way of getting everything one could possibly want/need in one box.

...oh yeah and the fact that D* will never ever have every channel that could possibly be received OTA too...


----------



## OneOfOne

Doug Brott said:


> There are a number of you in this thread who are really, really angry about this. The HR20 was out and readily available for over a year .. If you do your homework and work at it, you can still get one today .. It's still happening. Sometime you just have to take charge of your own destiny ..


so this benefits those of us who just upgraded to the hd programming how? its a condescending attitude and short sighted. directv should just explain that it is not responsible for problems regarding ota reception that dont specifically pertain to the internals of the box. period. those who dont need ota, yay for you. those who do shouldnt be abandoned for cost purposes which is what this is really about. yeah you can go to ebay or somewhere and find an hr20. sort of like needing a tire because your car came with run flats and the dealer says go to the junkyard. not exactly what you want to hear.


----------



## OneOfOne

bhunt01 said:


> Earl, under what strange policy do YOU get to decide that if people disagree with you the topic gets banned?
> 
> 1 - There was a solution
> 2 - There will be a solution
> 3 - There is currently no predictable solution
> 
> 1 is histry - we cannot change it
> 2 is the future - we strive to make it better
> 3 is the world we live in


this is problem NUMBER ONE with forums on the internet: people who lack reading comprehension skills firing off a reply that has nothing to do with the original posters intent. re-read what earl typed and then apologize.


----------



## rlgold88

OneOfOne said:


> so this benefits those of us who just upgraded to the hd programming how? its a condescending attitude and short sighted. directv should just explain that it is not responsible for problems regarding ota reception that dont specifically pertain to the internals of the box. period. those who dont need ota, yay for you. those who do shouldnt be abandoned for cost purposes which is what this is really about. yeah you can go to ebay or somewhere and find an hr20. sort of like needing a tire because your car came with run flats and the dealer says go to the junkyard. not exactly what you want to hear.


I still see hr-20 700 being sold at costco. For $267.00 I plan on picking one up. I dont really need it, I all ready have 3 hr20 w/ota but I will connect it downstairs mainly as a backup. So they are still available if you look.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Two thoughts occur to me of things that have changed since the days of the SD receivers/DVRs launched. 

1) I no longer have a VCR. Back in the day, I had as many as four recording for me. Now that I'm sold on DVRs and DIRECTV as well as gotten used to DIRECTV supplying OTA capabilities.

2) DIRECTV is no longer carrying all the OTA channels as they did in SD. I don't have PBS (and their 12 feeds here) nor CW, or the independents as I do in SD.

Couple the two together and I have a need for OTA. Thankfully, I am very happy that DIRECTV is working on a solution for us.  Until then, I'm also happy that DIRECTV has worked hard to preserve the HR20 line. 

That leaves me scratching my head, why are some people out to blast DIRECTV for this issue, but I guess there are some people who always will. 

Anyway, the solution is coming. I'm kinda excited (I think its the new toy effect) 

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## dettxw

A little local info for what it's worth...

After I bought my 2nd HR20 this week there were only 3 left in the state at BB, all at the OKC N May store. So I'd say that by now BB here has no more HR20s, only the non-OTA HR21s - can't say about CC.

My installer was out yesterday to fix my install and tweak the alignment. He says he still has HR20s but didn't have any insight as to how long.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Tom Robertson said:


> 2) DIRECTV is no longer carrying all the OTA channels as they did in SD. I don't have PBS (and their 12 feeds here) nor CW, or the independents as I do in SD.


It's not like they HAD them on the SAT stream... and then dropped them out.

They do have this multi-million dollar part going up... D11 that will expand the availability of bandwith to help add more of those HD Locals.

And if it wasn't for must-carry laws... I doubt we would have seen 100% of the Analog networks either.


----------



## houskamp

Tom Robertson said:


> Two thoughts occur to me of things that have changed since the days of the SD receivers/DVRs launched.
> 
> 1) I no longer have a VCR. Back in the day, I had as many as four recording for me. Now that I'm sold on DVRs and DIRECTV as well as gotten used to DIRECTV supplying OTA capabilities.
> 
> 2) DIRECTV is no longer carrying all the OTA channels as they did in SD. I don't have PBS (and their 12 feeds here) nor CW, or the independents as I do in SD.
> 
> Couple the two together and I have a need for OTA. Thankfully, I am very happy that DIRECTV is working on a solution for us.  Until then, I'm also happy that DIRECTV has worked hard to preserve the HR20 line.
> 
> That leaves me scratching my head, why are some people out to blast DIRECTV for this issue, but I guess there are some people who always will.
> 
> *Anyway, the solution is coming.* I'm kinda excited (I think its the new toy effect)
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


And there lies the problem.. They had a solution and now we are back to "coming soon"
All they needed to do was to setup a way to get a specific box (not arbitraly ship whatever) and this whole discusion would have never happend... Just poor planning..


----------



## Tom Robertson

Earl Bonovich said:


> It's not like they HAD them on the SAT stream... and then dropped them out.
> 
> They do have this multi-million dollar part going up... D11 that will expand the availability of bandwith to help add more of those HD Locals.
> 
> And if it wasn't for must-carry laws... I doubt we would have seen 100% of the Analog networks either.


 All understood. And again, I'm satisfied that DIRECTV is doing the right things. You asked what has changed.

As I ponder the whole situation, I consider that an optional OTA solution might be an excellent compromise. Carrying ALL the subchannels would be a huge expense in receiving, transcoding, and broadcast center equipment; maintenance of all that; people reviewing the channels, even if from time to time; people time to work with the stations on all those extra channels; etc. OUCH!

And yet, IMHO, most of the subchannels are not going to be review by most of the people, so carrying them would not be cost effective. And saving some money on the bulk of the receivers by not including OTA, and yet still having an optional solution very well should be a great compromise. I don't need OTA on all DVRs, not everyone wants OTA, and as Hasan put very well, if the solution is reasonably priced, I'd be a happy camper.

Oh yeah, Thats right. I _am _a happy camper. 

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

rlgold88 said:


> I still see hr-20 700 being sold at costco. For $267.00 I plan on picking one up. I dont really need it, I all ready have 3 hr20 w/ota but I will connect it downstairs mainly as a backup. So they are still available if you look.


Not here, the 2 located nearest me have been sold out of HR20's for 2 months now. Just pallets of HR21's. Same with Best Buy.

Has anyone seen any HR20-100's around, if so where?

I just hope the "solution" has dual tuners.


----------



## Tom Robertson

theratpatrol said:


> Not here, the 2 located nearest me have been sold out of HR20's for 2 months now. Just pallets of HR21's. Same with Best Buy.
> 
> Has anyone seen any HR20-100's around, if so where?
> 
> I just hope the "solution" has dual tuners.


I was going to wait until the CE rush was over, but I cannot pass up the perfect setup question.

The answer I got was: "Dual. Who do you think [we] are? Dishnetwork?" !rolling

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

So I've updated the title.


----------



## cygnusloop

Tom Robertson said:


> I was going to wait until the CE rush was over, but I cannot pass up the perfect setup question.
> 
> The answer I got was: "Dual. Who do you think [we] are? Dishnetwork?" !rolling
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


That is very good news, Tom. Thanks for sharing! :biggthump


----------



## arob

Tom Robertson said:


> I was going to wait until the CE rush was over, but I cannot pass up the perfect setup question.
> 
> The answer I got was: "Dual. Who do you think [we] are? Dishnetwork?" !rolling
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


Any idea when?

I've just reordered my free 2 DVR's and 5LNB from D* stipulating that the install must be with the HR20. I have no hopes that HR20's will be delivered. My plan is to order, have installer show up with HR21, cancel, 
reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel, 
reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel, 
reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel, 
reorder.. and so on until either I get the HR20 or other OTA solution or D* stops taking my orders and I go to another provider.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alas, I do not know when the unit will be available generally. As you likely know, DIRECTV doesn't really announce hardware or specific channels until they are ready.

Perhaps this will be a CES 2008 announcement in January? (Ok, maybe as a sidebar of another announcement in January?) 

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Earl Bonovich

arob said:


> Any idea when?
> 
> I've just reordered my free 2 DVR's and 5LNB from D* stipulating that the install must be with the HR20. I have no hopes that HR20's will be delivered. My plan is to order, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder.. and so on until either I get the HR20 or other OTA solution or D* stops taking my orders and I go to another provider.


Cancel now then... and save your self the trouble.
Since as we have pointed out multiple times, and you do know...

They can not guarantee the specific model... and I am pretty sure you know that.


----------



## Doug Brott

arob said:


> I've just reordered my free 2 DVR's and 5LNB from D* stipulating that the install must be with the HR20. I have no hopes that HR20's will be delivered. My plan is to order, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder.. and so on until either I get the HR20 or other OTA solution or D* stops taking my orders and I go to another provider.


sounds like a waste of time to me .. why bother? Just wait until DIRECTV can provide what you are looking for.


----------



## RobertE

arob said:


> Any idea when?
> 
> I've just reordered my free 2 DVR's and 5LNB from D* stipulating that the install must be with the HR20. I have no hopes that HR20's will be delivered. My plan is to order, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder.. and so on until either I get the HR20 or other OTA solution or D* stops taking my orders and I go to another provider.


Good luck with that.

If you kept doing that to me and kept wasting my time, I'd stop comming out.

You know that the odds are against geting a HR20, so why bother.

Actually, I'd have your account noted so no one comes out.


----------



## TigerDriver

Doug Brott said:


> sounds like a waste of time to me .. why bother? Just wait until DIRECTV can provide what you are looking for.


I agree. I have the cell phone # for the supervisor of installation in my area. He's a straight shooter whom I met when he was an installer (top-notch). They're installing an HR-21 for me on Thursday.

He told me his company hadn't seen an HR20 in two weeks. I asked him if he could get one from one of the company's other warehouses, and he said that everyone in his region has also been out of HR20s for a while. They're going to install an HR-21 for me on Thursday; he promised to try to scrounge me an HR20 but not to get my hopes up.

Luckily I've already got an HR10 and an HR20, so I'm not hurting for OTA. My DMA (Roanoke/Lynchburg) is so small that it may be far down the list for spot beams.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Tom Robertson said:


> Alas, I do not know when the unit will be available generally. As you likely know, DIRECTV doesn't really announce hardware or specific channels until they are ready.
> 
> Perhaps this will be a CES 2008 announcement in January? (Ok, maybe as a sidebar of another announcement in January?)
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


So whats the other announcement? 200 more HD channels? 

Or maybe MRV?


----------



## TigerDriver

theratpatrol said:


> So whats the other announcement?


Promotion of Forrest Gump to VP of Customer Service.


----------



## Tom Robertson

How I wish I knew what DIRECTV was going to announce at CES. We'll have to find out together in early January.


----------



## arob

Yeah I know it's a waste of time but in my little fantasy world everyone in my situation would do this and D* would eventually get the picture.

What really bugs me is Directv's response when I ask them which unit I will get. They really haven't got a clue what they are producing and where it is going or at least their CSR's sure don't. If a CSR would just tell me, "No you will not get an HR20' I would stop bothering them. Funny thing is the CSR's are the ones that clearly explain opening an order and dealing with the local install company is the only way to find out what I will get. So in essence I'm just using the system they've setup. Or maybe abusing that system.


----------



## RobertE

arob said:


> Yeah I know it's a waste of time but in my little fantasy world everyone in my situation would do this and D* would eventually get the picture.
> 
> What really bugs me is Directv's response when I ask them which unit I will get. They really haven't got a clue what they are producing and where it is going or at least their CSR's sure don't. If a CSR would just tell me, "No you will not get an HR20' I would stop bothering them. Funny thing is the CSR's are the ones that clearly explain opening an order and dealing with the local install company is the only way to find out what I will get. So in essence I'm just using the system they've setup. Or maybe abusing that system.


"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." 
Benjamin Franklin


----------



## HighVoltage

theratpatrol said:


> Not here, the 2 located nearest me have been sold out of HR20's for 2 months now. Just pallets of HR21's. Same with Best Buy.
> 
> Has anyone seen any HR20-100's around, if so where?
> 
> I just hope the "solution" has dual tuners.


I scoured every BB and CC in all of Austin, Round Rock, Cedar Park and Georgetown and came across a grand total of 2 HR20s. Dont bother calling to find out, as not a single store actually answers there phone.

I havent checked Costco, havent been a member for awhile. The single store around here is too far away for me to justify the membership.


----------



## RAD

HighVoltage said:


> I scoured every BB and CC in all of Austin, Round Rock, Cedar Park and Georgetown and came across a grand total of 2 HR20s. Dont bother calling to find out, as not a single store actually answers there phone.
> 
> I havent checked Costco, havent been a member for awhile. The single store around here is too far away for me to justify the membership.


CC's web site says that the Arbor Walk and Southpark Meadows stores have them (my closest), where those were you found the two? Just curious how accurate the CC website is for accuracy.


----------



## loudo

HighVoltage said:


> I scoured every BB and CC in all of Austin, Round Rock, Cedar Park and Georgetown and came across a grand total of 2 HR20s. Dont bother calling to find out, as not a single store actually answers there phone.
> 
> I havent checked Costco, havent been a member for awhile. The single store around here is too far away for me to justify the membership.


I see Best Buy has removed all DirecTV DVRs from their web site. But was in the Melbourne store today and saw lots of HR21s.

But it is very easy for one to check if Circuit City has any in your area. Go to their web site HR20 page, http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/Search.do?c=1&searchType=user&keyword=HR20&searchSection=All and click on the Get it today: check in-store availability, enter your zip code and it will show you what stores if any in your area have them.


----------



## adam1115

mhayes70 said:


> :nono2: Good luck on finding someone that carries all OTA content via there system.
> 
> I have never seen anything anywhere that they made a commitment to support OTA. Can you show me where they did?


My cable company does.

Can I show you the specs to every HD receiver DriecTV has ever manufactured that includes OTA support except for the H21 and HR21? Yea, I could, but I don't have time right now. Pretty easy to verify though.



Earl Bonovich said:


> BINGO!!!!! Because they were on the SAT, which most DMAs are getting their core channels, and that will only expand over time.
> 
> And as more of those channels get into the SAT stream... IMHO.
> This lack of an ATSC tuner in the HR21... becomes less and less and less of an issue.


But they DON'T provide it now, so it IS an issue now. If they planned this out with a method to get HR20's to markets they don't provide HD-LIL in and HR21's in markets they DO provide HD-LIL's in, it would be less of an issue. If they implemented sub-channels (which take VERY little bandwidth) it would be less of an issue. If they hadn't offered OTA in EVERY OTHER HD receiver they've made, as a stop-gap measure to prevent losing subs to cable (who has been providing locals in HD for quite some time) it would be less of an issue.


----------



## ned23

I was one of the lucky ones who needed and got a HR20 recently so I have calmed down a bit and started thinking about this add on solution for the HR21. I tend to think of what could be sometimes, but never happens.

If this idea of add on functionality lends itself to opening the door for other, maybe third party solutions it could be very interesting. For instance a HD Radio add on for local music, an IPod or Zune add on, a memory card reader, xm radio, Amazon Unbox Module etc.


----------



## Sirshagg

arob said:


> Any idea when?
> 
> I've just reordered my free 2 DVR's and 5LNB from D* stipulating that the install must be with the HR20. I have no hopes that HR20's will be delivered. My plan is to order, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder.. and so on until either I get the HR20 or other OTA solution or D* stops taking my orders and I go to another provider.


I like the plan, but WOW you must have nothing but time on your hands to keep waiting around for installers like that.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

adam1115 said:


> My cable company does.
> 
> Can I show you the specs to every HD receiver DriecTV has ever manufactured that includes OTA support except for the H21 and HR21? Yea, I could, but I don't have time right now. Pretty easy to verify though.
> 
> But they DON'T provide it now, so it IS an issue now. If they planned this out with a method to get HR20's to markets they don't provide HD-LIL in and HR21's in markets they DO provide HD-LIL's in, it would be less of an issue. If they implemented sub-channels (which take VERY little bandwidth) it would be less of an issue. If they hadn't offered OTA in EVERY OTHER HD receiver they've made, as a stop-gap measure to prevent losing subs to cable (who has been providing locals in HD for quite some time) it would be less of an issue.


To your first point:
As I pointed out before...

Up to know.... Locals in HD where pretty much ONLY available via ATSC
Now, they have over 70 DMAs that have SAT based local coverage for HD.
With most of them covering all of the big 4 channels.

That is a MAJOR SIGNIFICANT point, that everyone keeps excluding when they bring up "past" units.

H21/HR21 are the newest systems, so obivously if there was going to be a change... it would be in their newest systems.

To your second point:
They had MPEG-4 content out there (HD Locals) without the ability to DVR them for almost a year.... There are something that happen before others... not everything is done instantly at the same time.

So right now, it is a transition period.... These things are not done to be day/date implementations.... there are so many factors involved in getting things done, if they always waited for every duck to be in a row... then nothing would be done. So long as they know the duck is swimming and is on their way.

To your last point:
ATSC support was done specifically because of the content availability... 
I highly doubt it was simply added to the systems as a stop gap measure to keep people from going to cable.

And again to re-iterrate what we have been telling you over and over and over.

If you don't like the fact that the H21/HR21 doesn't have OTA..
Don't upgrade... Don't switch... Don't move to DirecTV....
Until they have announced their plans...

That simple.... If you want DirecTV for their new HD channels.... 
You have the facts in the situation


----------



## HighVoltage

loudo said:


> I see Best Buy has removed all DirecTV DVRs from their web site. But was in the Melbourne store today and saw lots of HR21s.
> 
> But it is very easy for one to check if Circuit City has any in your area. Go to their web site HR20 page, http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/Search.do?c=1&searchType=user&keyword=HR20&searchSection=All and click on the Get it today: check in-store availability, enter your zip code and it will show you what stores if any in your area have them.


I dont believe that is the case as I did do that and it listed 3 stores. I went to to all 3 (since no one was answering the phone @ any of them) and they claimed they didnt have any in stock, even with a "visual" check.

Actually one store did pick up the phone (after I called the verizon booth and had her go get a guy) and when I asked about the HR20, he said they had 3 on the shelf. I asked if he was sure and recheck the model#. He said "Yes I am looking right at them." I then asked him for the make # and he said -700. When I went down there, there wasnt a single HR20 but there were 3 H20S-700.


----------



## loudo

HighVoltage said:


> I dont believe that is the case as I did do that and it listed 3 stores. I went to to all 3 (since no one was answering the phone @ any of them) and they claimed they didnt have any in stock, even with a "visual" check.
> 
> Actually one store did pick up the phone (after I called the verizon booth and had her go get a guy) and when I asked about the HR20, he said they had 3 on the shelf. I asked if he was sure and recheck the model#. He said "Yes I am looking right at them." I then asked him for the make # and he said -700. When I went down there, there wasnt a single HR20 but there were 3 H20S-700.


Their web site was pretty accurate when I used it. Out of all of the Central Florida stores it showed them in stock in the Melbourne store and only 1 of the Orlando stores. I went to the Melbourne store and bought the last boxed HR20-700 they had. Later that day I again checked the availability of them at the Central Florida stores, and they showed none at either the Melbourne or Orlando stores that showed them earlier that day.


----------



## racetrek

I just had my own bad experience with an HR21 install/upgrade from my old HR10-250. I had asked the CSR for the HR20 when ordering and she assured me that would be what I would get.

Well the installers came early and by the time I got home they had upgraded me to the HR21 stating that was all they had to install.

After reading this thread I realize I am not the only one with this situation. I have talked to numerous CSRs, supervisors, customer retention and tech support and have gotten nowhere. My only option seems to be to purchase the HR20 if I can find one or wait for OTA support in the HR21. My latest email for tech support indicated that the OTA support would not be available until late Spring '08 (not sure if this date has been mentioned yet).

I wish I had read this thread earlier...


----------



## Doug Brott

racetrek,

You probably still have your HR10-250 .. consider putting it in service for OTA until a solution becomes available for the HR21.


----------



## Tom Robertson

racetrek, welcome to the forums! :welcome_s

I'm sorry you got caught in the short-term situation. As Doug says, you can use your HR10-250 (I still use mine for other features) and the solution is coming.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

loudo said:


> I see Best Buy has removed all DirecTV DVRs from their web site. But was in the Melbourne store today and saw lots of HR21s.
> 
> But it is very easy for one to check if Circuit City has any in your area. Go to their web site HR20 page, http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/Search.do?c=1&searchType=user&keyword=HR20&searchSection=All and click on the Get it today: check in-store availability, enter your zip code and it will show you what stores if any in your area have them.





HighVoltage said:


> I dont believe that is the case as I did do that and it listed 3 stores. I went to to all 3 (since no one was answering the phone @ any of them) and they claimed they didnt have any in stock, even with a "visual" check.
> 
> Actually one store did pick up the phone (after I called the verizon booth and had her go get a guy) and when I asked about the HR20, he said they had 3 on the shelf. I asked if he was sure and recheck the model#. He said "Yes I am looking right at them." I then asked him for the make # and he said -700. When I went down there, there wasnt a single HR20 but there were 3 H20S-700.


But are any of you seeing HR20-100's around? Everyone is saying that they are still in production. If so, I wonder who's selling them?


----------



## arob

Sirshagg said:


> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel, reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> 
> I like the plan, but WOW you must have nothing but time on your hands to keep waiting around for installers like that.


Actually the dial in number I've found has been getting me to a CSR within 2 minutes. Having already struck the free dish/dvr's deal and cancelled a previous order they seem to have an easier time getting me in the system. All tolled I have spent 5-10 minutes on the phone, tops.



racetrek said:


> I just had my own bad experience with an HR21 install/upgrade from my old HR10-250. I had asked the CSR for the HR20 when ordering and she assured me that would be what I would get.
> 
> Well the installers came early and by the time I got home they had upgraded me to the HR21 stating that was all they had to install.
> 
> After reading this thread I realize I am not the only one with this situation. I have talked to numerous CSRs, supervisors, customer retention and tech support and have gotten nowhere. My only option seems to be to purchase the HR20 if I can find one or wait for OTA support in the HR21. My latest email for tech support indicated that the OTA support would not be available until late Spring '08 (not sure if this date has been mentioned yet).
> 
> I wish I had read this thread earlier...


Sorry to hear about your predicament. DBSTalk and other forums have saved me on this one. The D* CSR you spoke with hasn't got a clue and most don't. From my experience most don't know there is a difference between the HR20 and 21. Those that do make no guarantee.

My wife has strick instructions to call me when the installer shows up next week for the next install appointment. If he doesn't have the HR20 he will be sent away. If they're smart they'll call first.


----------



## loudo

theratpatrol said:


> But are any of you seeing HR20-100's around? Everyone is saying that they are still in production. If so, I wonder who's selling them?


Not sure about all of them, but the one I bought at CC was a HR-700.


----------



## nickff

I just got off the phone with level 3 tech support and the gentleman indicated that they are looking into adding OTA support for the HR21 early 2008.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Welcome to the forums, nickf! :welcome_s

That is good news. (And I have no reason to doubt it.)

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## TreyS

One of my tuners just died in my HR20 and I don't want the HR21 as I need my OTA tuner. Locals via DTV just don't cut it IMO. Has anyone got an HR20 recently?

Thanks!


----------



## Tom Robertson

TreyS said:


> One of my tuners just died in my HR20 and I don't want the HR21 as I need my OTA tuner. Locals via DTV just don't cut it IMO. Has anyone got an HR20 recently?
> 
> Thanks!


As Earl has reported, DIRECTV is trying to replace HR20s with HR20s, especially if OTA is needed. You should be ok. You might need to be patient as you describe the problem.

Good luck,
Tom


----------



## -iD

on 12-6, the local installer had no problem coming out and swapping out my newly installed hr21 for an HR20-100. he stated that they had plenty of inventory and there were no issues in getting it. he said if the work order states customer wants a 20, or mentions OTA then they get a 20, but if there are no specific instructions they get a 21.


----------



## Miller_Time

Well, now I'm getting a little nervous. My D* install is on Thursday and I live in the Syracuse DMA. Since there are no HD locals offered, I am going to need OTA. I am only _really_ concerned about NBC and Fox as they carry the only programs I watch on the national networks(Heroes, Life, Earl, Office, House...)

My wife will also have strict orders to call me at work as soon as the installer gets here. I will try to contact my installer early this week. Will D* give e their contact info if I call and speak to a CSR?


----------



## Ken S

Miller_Time said:


> Well, now I'm getting a little nervous. My D* install is on Thursday and I live in the Syracuse DMA. Since there are no HD locals offered, I am going to need OTA. I am only _really_ concerned about NBC and Fox as they carry the only programs I watch on the national networks(Heroes, Life, Earl, Office, House...)
> 
> My wife will also have strict orders to call me at work as soon as the installer gets here. I will try to contact my installer early this week. Will D* give e their contact info if I call and speak to a CSR?


So, is giving your wife "strict" orders any different than asking her nicely to do something? I know in this house...I ask nicely and then hope .


----------



## Maruuk

Again, for anybody who missed this, a temp stopgap if you get stuck with an HR21 like I did is to screw a Terk OTA powered antenna onto the 5-LNB dish and power it with 12 volts through the center/tip wire of your coax (assuming your TV has an ATSC tuner onboard). Winegard makes a power injector for $14 that will do this, and Radio Shack has an inline amp whose DC source will work though it's a bit pricey. You need this as the old system in which the Terk was powered through LNB hookups doesn't work anymore. At least that's what my installer told me.

Anyways, I picked up an old Terk for $20 and it works amazingly well, very powerful signal strength. Of course, you can't record anything. But help is on the way from DTV in the form of a USB dual (let us pray) ext tuner.


----------



## Miller_Time

Ken S said:


> So, is giving your wife "strict" orders any different than asking her nicely to do something? I know in this house...I ask nicely and then hope .


Yeah, the "strict" order will go something like: "_Please_ give me a call as soon as the installer get there so I can be sure that we will be able to record and watch all of the shows we like..."


----------



## adam1115

Earl Bonovich said:


> Up to know.... Locals in HD where pretty much ONLY available via ATSC
> Now, they have over 70 DMAs that have SAT based local coverage for HD.
> With most of them covering all of the big 4 channels.
> 
> That is a MAJOR SIGNIFICANT point, that everyone keeps excluding when they bring up "past" units.


Yes, but I would word it that they *only* have 70 DMA's. There are a lot more than 70. I could understand the switch to receivers without OTA if they had all (or nearly all) DMA's.



Earl Bonovich said:


> H21/HR21 are the newest systems, so obivously if there was going to be a change... it would be in their newest systems.


Sure, but they could've continued making HR20's available to DMA's they don't cover and only install HR21's in DMA's they have HD-LIL up.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

adam1115 said:


> Yes, but I would word it that they *only* have 70 DMA's. There are a lot more than 70. I could understand the switch to receivers without OTA if they had all (or nearly all) DMA's.


How many DMA's are active on SD? Half of them? Maybe?
Should they have provided NTSC tuners to all them?

They will NEVER have all DMA's...
Unless there is some major brakethough in the technology, or they start to launch a whole bunch of SATs


----------



## adam1115

Earl Bonovich said:


> How many DMA's are active on SD? Half of them? Maybe?
> Should they have provided NTSC tuners to all them?
> 
> They will NEVER have all DMA's...
> Unless there is some major brakethough in the technology, or they start to launch a whole bunch of SATs


Uhm 143. Almost double that of the HD-LIL.

But that's not the issue. They have NEVER offered NTSC tuners. They've offered ATSC tuners for years, then started telling people if they upgrade to the latest receiver they'd LOSE their locals.

Think about someone with an HR10-250 who has been with DirecTV for years, and is getting HD OTA. To gain access to the latest KA programming, it's a crapshoot on whether they will lose their locals.


----------



## mossdaddy

After slogging through the pages of this thread I'm left to wonder, do any of you people actually watch TV or is this part of your job discription at DirecTV?

Some of you seem to think that DirecTV can do no wrong and that we just need to be patient and "trust them". One poster claimed he knew that an OTA solution was in the works for the HR21 before this thread began. But it tooks months? for DirecTv to let the rest of us know. Then it was trust me, it's coming. CES? Half the announcements there never actually ship as products. You must thing that an ounce of water in an eight ounce glass would be half full.

In the meantime, us poor schmucks in the small markets are supposed to just drool over the channels while we wait for an OTA solution that will come in "early 2008".

The suggested solutions are:

Just switch back and forth between inputs when you want to go between the OTA and DirecTV. And wait and pray for the cure.

Order an HR20 because DirecTv posters to the thread say they are available, even though I and others requested them and don't get them.

Go away and find another solution.

I've been a DirecTV HD customer when you could only get HDNet. The line up didn't really change much during the five or so years I've been an HD customer. I did get slapped with a 12 month service commitment when I replaced my Mitsubishi HD receiver that died with an H10. I lost OTA analog and the interface sucked, but they felt it was an upgrade and my $300 bucks in their pocket was no proof I was committed to being a customer.

It is pretty obvious that their long term strategy is to force customers to get all their programing from them. First they eliminate the anolog stations, now the digital ones. I for one am sceptical that a OTA solution for the 21's will be satisfactory even if it appears sometime in 2008. They want to make it as difficult as possible for the average user to connect anything but their receiver and if you can't get the programs from them, well tough ****.

Having waded through the incredible amount of opinion with so little real facts on this thread, I'm left with the feeling I always get from the DirecTV (I've been a customer for 10 years). We'll tell you what we you need to hear so that we can string you along for a while longer. 

Waiting for DirecTv to deliver insures that I will keep the limited HD I get today in place for months. I can't provide a solution that doesn't allow anyone in the house to easily switch between a local channel and a Sat channel. 

I suspect I could switch to Dish and be about through the 18 month commitment before DirecTV supplies the needed solution. So Im heading to the Dish threads. Fewer channels there perhaps, but at least it is an actual solution.

Oh, and don't get me started about having to add a third coax to each site to use the DVR. 

So, if someone actuall adds a comment that adds a fact to the discussion, let me know. I promise not to hold my breath.


----------



## frederic1943

Circuit City still shows HR20s in stock at most stores.


----------



## finaldiet

Ford City mall, southwest side of chicago, shows HR 20's in stock as of this am. Has free shipping also.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Earl Bonovich said:


> To your first point:
> As I pointed out before...
> 
> And again to re-iterrate what we have been telling you over and over and over.
> 
> If you don't like the fact that the H21/HR21 doesn't have OTA..
> Don't upgrade... Don't switch... Don't move to DirecTV....
> Until they have announced their plans...
> 
> That simple.... If you want DirecTV for their new HD channels....
> You have the facts in the situation


Of course, DirecTV could have waited to introduce the HR21 until it really was ready (i.e., had the much rumored OTA solution), rather than essentially discontinuing the HR20 and forcing existing subscribers who have HR20's that die (such as mine) to accept HR21's. There was no need to halt production of the HR20's except to force people to accept the HR21.

But then, why would they do that? They introduced the HR20's about a year before they were ready also. And just about when they got the bugs out, in effect they halt its production. They are not available except in very limited numbers in very limited markets.

Service centers don't even have a clue as to the important difference between the HR20 and HR21 and hence have no way of giving a customer what they request.

What advice is there for such subscribers? I have it: Like it or lump it. Just another example of bad strategic planning on DirecTV's part.


----------



## Lee L

I still think the desicion to eliminate the OTA in the HR21 was not great due to timing. Had they done it after the new OTA solution was available or made arrangements to make sure that peopel who needed them could get HR20s. A simple check box in their CRM system for the CSRs.

But, I did remember that my first HD reciever from early 2001, the good old Dish 6000, had a seperate 8VSB module that cost $150 at first (and it was not availble from the start.) You had to remove a door on the back and insert the thing yourself. Without it, you got no OTA. At the time, the DirecTV box did have built-in OTA and that was a part of their marketing at the time as it sold for a decent amount more than the Dish box.

So, DirecTV at one time thought it was a competitive advantage to have the OTA built in and now does not and is going back to the really early days. I do understand the rationale behind not having the built-in OTA, but think they handled it poorly or at least not in the way I would have handled it if I ran DirecTV (which of course I don't).


----------



## jwd45244

OK, now we are at 37 pages in this thread and we know nothing more than we did than when this thread started.


Can we stop beating this dead horse for a while?


----------



## ShiningBengal

jwd45244 said:


> OK, now we are at 37 pages in this thread and we know nothing more than we did than when this thread started.
> 
> Can we stop beating this dead horse for a while?


No one is compelled to read this thread. No one is compelled to contribute to it. Those who find it useful can continue to read and contribute. Those who don't, then DON'T!

Go beat a different dead horse.


----------



## Ken S

jwd45244 said:


> OK, now we are at 37 pages in this thread and we know nothing more than we did than when this thread started.
> 
> Can we stop beating this dead horse for a while?


It's only 24 pages your forum settings are wrong.


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## loudo

frederic1943 said:


> Circuit City still shows HR20s in stock at most stores.


Maybe in your area, but here in Central Florida every CC store is sold out of HR20s, except one. The CC Internet web site shows only one store (Millenia Mall, in Orlando) with them, out of 10. Which by the way is a change over the last part of last week, when it showed none in all 10 stores. Maybe that means they are getting more back in stock.

Strange though on the BB web site. They show no information on any HD receiver or DVR, just SD equipment.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> Of course, DirecTV could have waited to introduce the HR21 until it really was ready (i.e., had the much rumored OTA solution), rather than essentially discontinuing the HR20 and forcing existing subscribers who have HR20's that die (such as mine) to accept HR21's. There was no need to halt production of the HR20's except to force people to accept the HR21.
> 
> But then, why would they do that? They introduced the HR20's about a year before they were ready also. And just about when they got the bugs out, in effect they halt its production. They are not available except in very limited numbers in very limited markets.
> 
> Service centers don't even have a clue as to the important difference between the HR20 and HR21 and hence have no way of giving a customer what they request.
> 
> What advice is there for such subscribers? I have it: Like it or lump it. Just another example of bad strategic planning on DirecTV's part.


As I noted earlier....

If you wait for every piece of the puzzle to be in place, and put it all at once... the puzzle will never be complete.... Some aspects of the end game are done at different times....

The HR21/H21 *IS* ready... And it is serving it's purpose in a VAST majority of installations... just because it doesn't have OTA, doesn't mean it isn't serving the customer base it was intended to serve.

Should all of the peopel that don't want OTA... have to sit and wait while there is a backlog?

As noted the HR21 and the HR20, are extremely similar... so even if they did halt production on the HR20 (which they haven't), the bugs that have been worked out... carry over to the next generation of the system... it is not liek the HR21 started back on a clean sheet of paper.

You may think it is a bad strategical move.... but I don't see people having all the facts on the situation... just one piece, from their vantage point.


----------



## loudo

Ken S said:


> It's only 24 pages your forum settings are wrong.


How many pages you see depends on what you have your "Number of Posts to Show Per Page" set to, on the Edit Options page of User CP.


----------



## loudo

ShiningBengal said:


> Service centers don't even have a clue as to the important difference between the HR20 and HR21 and hence have no way of giving a customer what they request.


Neither do the people selling them. When I was at CC purchasing mine, the sales person asked me why I was so persistent on getting an older model, when they had a newer unit out. When I told her about the OTA tuner in the HR20 and not in the HR21, it was the first time she had heard about it. She thanked me for telling her, so she could make sure when she sold the unit to customers they understood they wouldn't be able to get OTA, with the HR21.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Earl Bonovich said:


> As I noted earlier....
> 
> If you wait for every piece of the puzzle to be in place, and put it all at once... the puzzle will never be complete.... Some aspects of the end game are done at different times....
> 
> The HR21/H21 *IS* ready... And it is serving it's purpose in a VAST majority of installations... just because it doesn't have OTA, doesn't mean it isn't serving the customer base it was intended to serve.
> 
> Should all of the peopel that don't want OTA... have to sit and wait while there is abacklog?
> 
> As noted the HR21 and the HR20, are extremely similar... so even if they did halt production on the HR20 (which they haven't), the bugs that have been worked out... carry over to the next generation of the system... it is not liek the HR21 started back on a clean sheet of paper.
> 
> You may think it is a bad strategical move.... but I don't see people having all the facts on the situation... just one piece, from their vantage point.


Earl, with all due respect, I don't think you understood my post.

Of course the HR21 is ready, if you don't need and want OTA. Of course it also still lacks the much ballyhooed VOD and some significant other functional shortcomings as well.

But ignoring that fact, my point is that it lacks OTA and despite your statement that the HR20 hasn't been discontinued, it is nearly impossible to get. So if you need OTA (I get only 4 of the 30 or so OTA digital channels in my local area via LIL) you are basically screwed.

Your statement that there is a shortage of HR20's pretty much proves my point regarding poor strategic planning. If there is a shortage, then who is to blame? Hint: The name begins with "D." Another example of what I describe as poor strategic planning. They failed miserably to adequately plan for the new demand generated by their own immense advertising campaign.

Meanwhile, they discontinued the HR20-700 so that manufacturer #700 could switch over production to the HR21-700.

Obviously there was a reason for DirecTV do do this. It just wasn't a very good one, and its timing was terrible. They want to get the cost of the HR21 down. Every HR21 that goes out in lieu of an HR20 is $$ in DirecTV's pocket. Well and good.

Facts: (1) DirecTV rolled out an extremely buggy HR20 and forced its subscribers to accept the fact that they would become unwitting and unwilling beta testers for it. It lacked significant features of the HR10 (although it added some as well) such as Wish Lists and DLB. People who had spent significant monies on the HR10 were left with this option: Abandon your HR10 and accept the HR20 or you will be stuck with only a handful of HD channels. I owned two HR10's and paid about $1500 for the two of them. The two replacements cost me only $119 each, but I had no need to upgrade except for the fact that DirecTV eventually would turn the HR10's into SD receivers.

A year or more later, after what, 60 + software upgrades (!), the HR20 is now ready for market. Still lacks Wish Lists, still lacks DLB. But one of the software upgrades enabled OTA. Another enabled VOD (Hurray! Just what everyone was clamoring for). It's probably now as good as it will get. So now DirecTV phases out the HR20.

(2) DirecTV now rolls out the HR21. Pretty black glossy case. Other than that, the only important difference from the HR20 is that it now lacks OTA. And of course, the much ballyhooed VOD. We are told if we don't like it, we should wait for yet another OTA solution (sound like a broken record?) whenever DirecTV gets around to it. I think that's what you have been telling us, Earl?

Seems like DirecTV has no notion of the fact that they are really p***ing off lots of loyal customers by their on-again, off-again approach to OTA. They call the tunes, we are expected to dance.

Meanwhile, none of DirecTV's support or marketing people have a clue as to the difference between an HR20 and the HR21. So if I call up and ask if the HR21 has OTA capability, I can be told (as I was) that the only difference was the black case. Of course I know from experience never to trust anything DirecTV CSR's tell me.

You seem to be criticizing the non-informed membership of this forum for not know ing what you know, and suggesting that if we are all patient, everything will begin to make sense.

Well, I have been waiting over a year, and it still doesn't make sense.


----------



## Doug Brott

ShiningBengal said:


> Your statement that there is a shortage of HR20's pretty much proves my point regarding poor strategic planning. If there is a shortage, then who is to blame? Hint: The name begins with "D." Another example of what I describe as poor strategic planning. They failed miserably to adequately plan for the new demand generated by their own immense advertising campaign.


You may be correct on this one. You and many others are calling DIRECTV shortsighted. It seems to me that the demand for the HR20s far outpaced even the biggest estimates by DIRECTV. It probably didn't help that in 2006 (Sep - Dec/Jan) that many folks replaced HR20s due to what turned out to be software bugs vs. hardware issues.

The fact remains that we are were we are and that is in a transitional phase that is non-optimal. I've seen plenty of empirical evidence to indicate that the need/desire for OTA is less than 10% of the DIRECTV population .. So while the HR21 is currently not the perfect solution it is the 90% solution which is better than the 80/20 rule that is commonly applied to situations like this. So yes, potentially 10% are going to be angry at this situation. That's better than 100% angered because they simply cannot get an HD receiver period.

DIRECTV has touted itself as the HD leader .. It needs to have an HD DVR solution and regardless of past performance (poor strategic planning) they are now making the production adjustments to rectify the current situation.


----------



## Doug Brott

mossdaddy said:


> The suggested solutions are:
> 
> Just switch back and forth between inputs when you want to go between the OTA and DirecTV. And wait and pray for the cure.
> 
> Order an HR20 because DirecTv posters to the thread say they are available, even though I and others requested them and don't get them.
> 
> Go away and find another solution.


Yes, unfortunately, this is the situation that we find ourselves in. None of us (including Earl) can dictate what DIRECTV does .. The facts are what they are and we do our best to give people the information we have. It's not always good news, but it is still information to help you and others make the decision that is right for you. If that decision is to choose another provider, then that is what it is.


----------



## psweig

Doug Brott said:


> You may be correct on this one. You and many others are calling DIRECTV shortsighted. It seems to me that the demand for the HR20s far outpaced even the biggest estimates by DIRECTV. It probably didn't help that in 2006 (Sep - Dec/Jan) that many folks replaced HR20s due to what turned out to be software bugs vs. hardware issues.
> 
> The fact remains that we are were we are and that is in a transitional phase that is non-optimal. I've seen plenty of empirical evidence to indicate that the need/desire for OTA is less than 10% of the DIRECTV population .. So while the HR21 is currently not the perfect solution it is the 90% solution which is better than the 80/20 rule that is commonly applied to situations like this. So yes, potentially 10% are going to be angry at this situation. That's better than 100% angered because they simply cannot get an HD receiver period.
> 
> DIRECTV has touted itself as the HD leader .. It needs to have an HD DVR solution and regardless of past performance (poor strategic planning) they are now making the production adjustments to rectify the current situation.


I'm curious as to how DirecTV and/or others arrive at this 10% figure; does it include the HD households w/o an ATSC tuner? How was this study done? When was it done? May we view the report?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

psweig said:


> I'm curious as to how DirecTV and/or others arrive at this 10% figure; does it include the HD households w/o an ATSC tuner? How was this study done? When was it done? May we view the report?


DirecTV has never stated a figure, as far as I am aware of.

.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

At any rate, the figure would be confidential most likely. My own very informal research shows an 8% desire for OTA in my area, where HD coverage on cable is not as good as DIRECTV's and many people live in homes with antennas still on the roofs.


----------



## bobcamp1

Doug Brott said:


> I've seen plenty of empirical evidence to indicate that the need/desire for OTA is less than 10% of the DIRECTV population .. So while the HR21 is currently not the perfect solution it is the 90% solution which is better than the 80/20 rule that is commonly applied to situations like this.


Wow. That's not the number I came up with. D* had better get some better data.

For 36% of the population, DirecTV doesn't carry at least one of the four major networks. In most cases, they don't carry any. This is based on Neilson's DMA data plus the official locals list Earl posted somewhere else in this forum.

For the other 64% of the population, customers get the four major networks via LiL yet they still want OTA access. (translates to maybe 1 or 2% total)

For 100% of the population, D*doesn't carry all of the local networks. So how many people want to record anything on PBS or CW -- maybe another 4 or 5%.

To counteract this, I guess a lot of people don't use their DVR to record their favorite shows. I'm serious...I guess they watch them live and don't want to use the trick play features and their TV has an ATSC tuner and they installed an antenna and they get good reception. (Maybe they can cheat and use cable for this -- but the digital channels are usually not on the basic tier.) Or maybe they THINK they're watching ATSC but are really watching NTSC. Maybe a third of the population does this. Maybe half?

So (1-0.33)*36 + 2 + 4 = 30%. Or maybe (1-0.5)*36 + 2 + 4 = 24%.

Looks like greater than 10% to me. And this is a "back of the napkin" calculation. Is there something I forgot?

For those of you paying HR20 prices for HR21s, you're getting ripped off. The lack of ATSC tuners in the HR21 saves DirecTV around $90 in licensing fees alone. So why isn't the HR21 significantly cheaper than the HR20? Oh, that's right, they can't tell the difference between the $100 box and the $220 box. So they charge the greater amount for all the boxes. How convenient.

The HR20s are in production, but don't appear to be in distribution. In places that have LiL, people can find two or three hiding in the back of the shelf. In places where there isn't LiL, you can't find a single one. Also, some Circuit Citys think they have HR20s, but they really have HR21s. The website lists are inaccurate during this transition phase.

The solution (HR21+new box) is going to be more expensive than what the HR20s are now, but not by too much. We know the box will be at least $120 (licensing fees plus at least $30 in hardware) unless DirecTV absorbs and distributes the cost to all its customers. It's gonna be a 10" x 10" box that connects to the HR21 via the USB port. Plus an HR21 software update. With a DirecTV logo on it. Not difficult. And something that should have done three months ago.


----------



## Doug Brott

Bob, your calculations assume that those 24% of the population have no choice other than DIRECTV. My "10%" number is based solely on what I have observed and is not based on any specific information .. yes, please take it with a grain of salt but for me, I'm convinced that I'm not that far off.

If folks are determined to solve their problem and DIRECTV does not provide an adequate solution, then you can be assured that those folks will not choose DIRECTV.


----------



## Ken S

bobcamp1 said:


> The solution (HR21+new box) is going to be more expensive than what the HR20s are now, but not by too much. We know the box will be at least $120 (licensing fees plus at least $30 in hardware) unless DirecTV absorbs and distributes the cost to all its customers. It's gonna be a 10" x 10" box that connects to the HR21 via the USB port. Plus an HR21 software update. With a DirecTV logo on it. Not difficult. And something that should have done three months ago.


$120 licensing fee for what? It's about $5/tuner for ATSC.


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, how could all these $75 USB ATSC tuners for laptops make any profit if they had to pay a substantial licensing fee?


----------



## racetrek

I finally got DirectTV to swap out my HR21 that was just installed last week for an HR20 at no cost. They are sending me a recovery kit today and the HR20 receiver should arrive in a week or so. I was able to get this accomplished through the Email Escalation Department. This sounds like it may be a new program according to the person I just spoke with since she just received details of it today.

What a relief...


----------



## Sirshagg

racetrek said:


> I finally got DirectTV to swap out my HR21 that was just installed last week for an HR20 at no cost. They are sending me a recovery kit today and the HR20 receiver should arrive in a week or so. I was able to get this accomplished through the Email Escalation Department. This sounds like it may be a new program according to the person I just spoke with since she just received details of it today.
> 
> What a relief...


Lets wait and see what you actually get


----------



## billsharpe

Ken S said:


> It's only 24 pages your forum settings are wrong.


Not wrong, per perhaps different. I'm on page 38 now with 25 messages per page.

Lots and lots of stuff here, but pretty weak on any specifics...

Bill


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## cawgijoe

I didn't have time to go through all this , but I'm afraid for my situation:

I have a five year old Sony KV-34XBR800 and an HR20. Works great. The original was replaced by Directv when the HDMI connector failed. They replaced it with another HR20....works great.

The problem that I see for me is that if this current HR20 were to fail, I would be completley out of luck when it comes to OTA. You see, my TV does not have a built in ATSC tuner. I want to keep the TV for a few more years to get my money's worth out of it and not all the OTA channels are carried by Directv.

Whatever the "solution" Directv comes up with can't happen soon enough for me.


----------



## MikeR7

cawgijoe said:


> I didn't have time to go through all this , but I'm afraid for my situation:
> 
> I have a five year old Sony KV-34XBR800 and an HR20. Works great. The original was replaced by Directv when the HDMI connector failed. They replaced it with another HR20....works great.
> 
> The problem that I see for me is that if this current HR20 were to fail, I would be completley out of luck when it comes to OTA. You see, my TV does not have a built in ATSC tuner. I want to keep the TV for a few more years to get my money's worth out of it and not all the OTA channels are carried by Directv.
> 
> Whatever the "solution" Directv comes up with can't happen soon enough for me.


May the forces of the Universe protect your HR20 for many moons to come just as they have my two for almost a year that I have had them. :lol:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

> The solution (HR21+new box) is going to be more expensive than what the HR20s are now, but not by too much. We know the box will be at least $120 (licensing fees plus at least $30 in hardware) unless DirecTV absorbs and distributes the cost to all its customers. It's gonna be a 10" x 10" box that connects to the HR21 via the USB port. Plus an HR21 software update. With a DirecTV logo on it. Not difficult. And something that should have done three months ago.





Ken S said:


> $120 licensing fee for what?It's about $5/tuner for ATSC.


I'm a little confused here. They took the OTA tuners out to save on licensing fees? But won't they still have to pay licensing fees with this new box too?


----------



## Miller_Time

I called D* this morning to ask for the contact information for my installer (install scheduled for thursday afternoon). They actually called the installer and transferred me to them. I told the CSR for the install company that I wanted an HR-20 _not_ an HR-21. She checked the work order and it says I am scheduled for an HR-20! I will still have my wife verify this before the installer unloads his ladder...


----------



## Bushwacr

Ken S said:


> $120 licensing fee for what? It's about $5/tuner for ATSC.


The $5 is the fee for ATSC. I think they would also pay the MPEG2 license (about $2) if I recall correctly.

I'm guessing because I record OTA (from one of Earl's nonexistant OTA antennas) on my PC and the native is MPEG2.


----------



## mhayes70

theratpatrol said:


> I'm a little confused here. They took the OTA tuners out to save on licensing fees? But won't they still have to pay licensing fees with this new box too?


I am sure they do. But, they only have to pay it on the one's they send out to HR21 owner's and not on every receiver. So, that will save them alot of money.


----------



## Tom Robertson

theratpatrol said:


> I'm a little confused here. They took the OTA tuners out to save on licensing fees? But won't they still have to pay licensing fees with this new box too?


Yes, but in fewer numbers. Millions of HR21 users will not need the OTA solution, saving millions of $$.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

mhayes70 said:


> I am sure they do. But, they only have to pay it on the one's they send out to HR21 owner's and not on every receiver. So, that will save them alot of money.





Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, but in fewer numbers. Millions of HR21 users will not need the OTA solution, saving millions of $$.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


DOH! Yeah true, thats makes sense, doesn't it?


----------



## Bushwacr

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, but in fewer numbers. Millions of HR21 users will not need the OTA solution, saving millions of $$.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


Will they be reducing the equipment down payment and lease fees to reflect reduced functionality??? They have already established what the fully functional fees are via the HR 20 series. I assume the HR21 initial DP and monthly charges are lower to reflect reduced costs.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The mirroring fees are essentially set by the programming costs, not so much by the hardware costs. You don't see differing mirroring fees for Advanced equipment vs. standard equipment.

And we won't directly see smaller down payments, DIRECTV is always trying to balance lowering costs while raising average revenue per customer AND maintaining a high level of customer quality/satisfaction. (This comes from listening to the investors webcasts.) So each time DIRECTV can save millions, that also potentially frees up a bit of money for other credits to the best customers, R&D dollars for new cool features, or reduced increases next year.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

Bushwacr said:


> Will they be reducing the equipment down payment and lease fees to reflect reduced functionality??? They have already established what the fully functional fees are via the HR 20 series. I assume the HR21 initial DP and monthly charges are lower to reflect reduced costs.


Pricing has not been announced, but as with any business, pricing is the prerogative of the company and is based on what customers are willing to pay. As it is now, DIRECTV loses money on every receiver regardless of whether it is the HR20 or the HR21. The lose less with the HR21, though.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Bushwacr said:


> I'm guessing because I record OTA (from one of Earl's nonexistant OTA antennas) on my PC and the native is MPEG2.


Huh?


----------



## Bushwacr

Earl Bonovich said:


> Huh?


Earl, go back and read your post about your Tinley Park development sample of OTA users based on your ability to see antennas on roofs. That post told me not to upgrade to HD based on what you were claiming.


----------



## Bushwacr

Doug Brott said:


> Pricing has not been announced, but as with any business, pricing is the prerogative of the company and is based on what customers are willing to pay. As it is now, DIRECTV loses money on every receiver regardless of whether it is the HR20 or the HR21. The lose less with the HR21, though.


Noone has yet to show that DirectV loses money on new equipment installed. Their 10K and 10Q supplementary information suggests otherwise. I assume that info is accurate.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DIRECTV's cost for the HR20 family (including the HR21 family) has been stated in investors calls as above $400 several times. Since they charge only $299 in upfront fees, I call that a loss on everyone leased.

The costs will (hopefully) be below $300 next year, IIRC.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Bushwacr

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV's cost for the HR20 family (including the HR21 family) has been stated in investors calls as above $400 several times. Since they charge only $299 in upfront fees, I call that a loss on everyone leased.
> 
> The costs will (hopefully) be below $300 next year, IIRC.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


And their average revenue accross the board per user is approx $70 per month and higher for HD and expanded users. Using a one year window to absorb cost (and they use 3 to 5) they are more than recovering cost and making a profit in a two year agreement. I'll take piece of this action.

Their average equipment cost per install across the board is about $170 per their docs.

I'll give you a personal example. A company I worked for gave away equipment costing $3,000 including istallation for a monthly service fee of $50. We made lots of money. Same business model.

What you don't know is what is meant by "cost". It has lots of meanings even for a public company. I'll stick by what is in the 10K and 10Q 'cause I know the ramifications of the document vs a webcast.

Oh, Happy Holidays!


----------



## Doug Brott

Oh, we went down this path once before .. I guess in the end, it all depends on whether you say the money is in the left pocket (up front revenue) or right pocket (over-time revenue). If DIRECTV chose to not subsidize the equipment at all, the equipment would be higher cost to us up front than it is now. Would our costs per month be cheaper? maybe .. it's hard to say for sure. In the end, we'll get our due and they'll get theirs. For now, all of these new set top boxes are adding to the cost of doing business to DIRECTV moreso than in the past .. That's all we're saying.

DIRECTV has chosen to lower their up front cost and that may or may not show up in the back end (at the consumer level). Probably there will be a price reduction on the equipment at some point so that DIRECTV can market the new and improved pricing.

As it is, DIRECTV looked at the number made their decision and now we have the situation we are in. Being good a good citizen Tom made an announcement that was a positive (There is a solution) vs the negative that was there (there is no solution). We're not there yet and we continue to wait just as you continue to wait.

The fact is that right now the HR20 does not have an OTA solution .. in time, it will.


----------



## Maruuk

As always, our only real price protection is from free market competition. I can't wait to see how DTV deals with AT&T's U-verse.


----------



## arob

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, but in fewer numbers. Millions of HR21 users will not need the OTA solution, saving millions of $$.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


This makes business sense. Why pay for equipment/licensing that won't be used? How D* should have handled this until the external solution was ready is by having CSR's ask one simple question - "Do you have an antenna on your roof or in your home to recieve local channels" Yes=HR20, No=HR21



Maruuk said:


> As always, our only real price protection is from free market competition. I can't wait to see how DTV deals with AT&T's U-verse.


D* has gotten more agressive in offering free or near free equipment and other incentives to lock you into a 2 year deal and not become a U-verse, FIOS or Comcast customer. U-verse is happening in my area but so far the reviews I've read are universally negative. Informed opinions say their HD is the worst offered (quality) when comparing all services.


----------



## Ken S

billsharpe said:


> Not wrong, per perhaps different. I'm on page 38 now with 25 messages per page.
> 
> Lots and lots of stuff here, but pretty weak on any specifics...
> 
> Bill


Geez...I was just kidding in response to the "This thread is too long" post.


----------



## Ken S

theratpatrol said:


> I'm a little confused here. They took the OTA tuners out to save on licensing fees? But won't they still have to pay licensing fees with this new box too?


Yes, but only to the small percentage of people that want them...and may be willing to pay extra to get them.

When you're dealing with electronics being able to knock $10 in licensing fees and probably another $10 or so in parts out of a box is a big, big deal. Multiply $20 times maybe 10 million potential HD customers (rough guess) and you're talking saving enough money for lunch AND Starbucks!


----------



## Ken S

Bushwacr said:


> And their average revenue accross the board per user is approx $70 per month and higher for HD and expanded users. Using a one year window to absorb cost (and they use 3 to 5) they are more than recovering cost and making a profit in a two year agreement. I'll take piece of this action.
> 
> Their average equipment cost per install across the board is about $170 per their docs.
> 
> I'll give you a personal example. A company I worked for gave away equipment costing $3,000 including istallation for a monthly service fee of $50. We made lots of money. Same business model.
> 
> What you don't know is what is meant by "cost". It has lots of meanings even for a public company. I'll stick by what is in the 10K and 10Q 'cause I know the ramifications of the document vs a webcast.
> 
> Oh, Happy Holidays!


They Customer Acquisition Cost is about $700 though which makes the "payback" period a bit longer. Certainly, they're profitable...I don't think thats in question.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I would like to comment on two of Ken S's statements 

One, while DIRECTV is profitable, I am nowhere smart enough to understand the fancy accounting that big companies do. 

Two, at the price Starbucks charges, I think they might not have enough money :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> Two, at the price Starbucks charges, I think they might not have enough money :lol:


At $9.75/gallon, Starbucks probably does OK .. :grin:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I meant that DIRECTV would not have enough money for a cup of Starbucks coffee.


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> I meant that DIRECTV would not have enough money for a cup of Starbucks coffee.


Good point ..


----------



## GP245

I hate to sound as one who sees a conspiracy around every corner, but...
has anyone else thought about the following:

Rupert made a deal with John Malone to transfer control of Direct.

Direct's push to "save" money may very well been a tactic to,
not "cook" the books, but minimally to "warm" them up some to 
escalate the value of the company.

I think there very well may something to this.


----------



## Doug Brott

GP245 said:


> I hate to sound as one who sees a conspiracy around every corner, but...
> has anyone else thought about the following:
> 
> Rupert made a deal with John Malone to transfer control of Direct.
> 
> Direct's push to "save" money may very well been a tactic to,
> not "cook" the books, but minimally to "warm" them up some to
> escalate the value of the company.
> 
> I think there very well may something to this.


Interesting thought, but black helicopters aside .. Every successful business tries to lower cost and increase profits .. Using Occam's razor, the simple solution is that DIRECTV is trying to lower their acquisition and retention costs by lowering their cost to build each receiver. Clearly it's not popular, but it is the solution that makes the most sense.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

GP245 said:


> I hate to sound as one who sees a conspiracy around every corner, but...
> has anyone else thought about the following:
> 
> Rupert made a deal with John Malone to transfer control of Direct.
> 
> Direct's push to "save" money may very well been a tactic to,
> not "cook" the books, but minimally to "warm" them up some to
> escalate the value of the company.
> 
> I think there very well may something to this.


Now that goes to the top of the list of conspiracy theories...

Everything about the stock swap asside.

There is no secret that the removal of the ATSC components in the new model, was to reduce the cost of the units... which reduce's their loss on each unit, which in turn improves the overall numbers.


----------



## houskamp

Earl Bonovich said:


> Now that goes to the top of the list of conspiracy theories...
> 
> Everything about the stock swap asside.
> 
> There is no secret that the removal of the ATSC components in the new model, was to reduce the cost of the units... which reduce's their loss on each unit, which in turn improves the overall numbers.


I thought you were staying out of this? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Jaysv

Never mind...should have finished reading thread.


----------



## HighVoltage

theratpatrol said:


> But are any of you seeing HR20-100's around? Everyone is saying that they are still in production. If so, I wonder who's selling them?


No. I only saw 2 HR20S-700. From all of the talk so far about availability on these units (HR20-xxxx), I don't believe they will be distributing them to retail stores anymore. I believe they will produce limited quantities of -100 and use them as only RMA replacements (along with refurbished) and only do so until the HR21 w/external OTA solution is available.


----------



## Ken S

It could be they chose certain models to be manufactured in greater quantities than others in order to hit rebate targets they have with those manufacturers. I know they have a $51 million dollar rebate from Thomson if they can hit some quantity numbers. I'm sure they have similar deals with Samsung, Pace, etc.


----------



## EricRobins

I have not read the terms of any license agreement re: ATSC, but would any license revenue be due if the boxes shipped with the tuners, but were DISABLED?

I was thinking that at some point, it would be beneficial for D* to distribute only 1 model receiver, which receiver included hardware for OTA, DVR, HD, etc. If someone wanted, e.g, HD, OTA or DVR functionality, a signal (via SAT or ethernet or OTA  ) could be used to activate that particular feature.

By reducing the number of IRDs in the field to 1, the difficulty in deciding which IRD a particular customer gets would be reduced significantly! Also, the customer support and software development would be considerably easier to maintain.

I understand that, at this stage, it may be cost prohibitive to deliver an HD-DVR to someone who only wants a non-DVR SD box, but delivering the higher end box would reduce "truck rolls" when that customer wants to upgrade.


----------



## GAM

This....
thread.....
won't......
die..... :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## bhelton71

EricRobins said:


> I was thinking that at some point, it would be beneficial for D* to distribute only 1 model receiver, which receiver included hardware for OTA, DVR, HD, etc. If someone wanted, e.g, HD, OTA or DVR functionality, a signal (via SAT or ethernet or OTA  ) could be used to activate that particular feature.


That was my idea 

One box - with expansion slots - customer A wants ota - give him a module. Customer B wants HD radio - thats another module. And my box doesn't have an hdd but a tray for loading a hdd - let the customer buy whatever size hdd they want and install it into the tray.

I'd have all kinds of modules: 6Ch audio, coax or optical s/pdif, ota, hd radio w/ XM or Sirius, possibly a four port hub, maybe even an extra sat tuner. Be like one of those big Onkyo receivers.

Svideo + composite would even be a module.


----------



## Doug Brott

bhelton71,

That's the HR22-DO model .. dream on


----------



## Drew2k

I don't know if this was discussed somewhere in this mega-thread but there has to be a cost to DIRECTV to get guide data for every channel and sub-channel in every DMA. Does having fewer DVRs eligible to use OTA guide data have any impact on the costs to DIRECTV to acquire, process, and distribute that guide data?


----------



## morepower

Just had my equipment upgrade and dish. I expected the HR21 and an H21.
The guy delivered an HR20-100, and an H20-100, made in Mexico, is that a good thing, and a slim line dish. I'm happy.

The installer claimed I was lucky that a dint get the HR21, he says they're full of issues, I think he was just trying to pacify me, since I dint get the latest and greatest. He dint run a wire so now I will, He gave me 120' of RG6 and a had full of connectors. 

Now I can have my OTA antenna, and rain proof my viewing.

I'm recording "The Hulk" not my favorite movie at all, I couldn't even finish watching it at the theater, but the PQ is fantastic, like everyone says, a reference movie for HD for sure.


----------



## harsh

bhelton71 said:


> I'd have all kinds of modules: 6Ch audio, coax or optical s/pdif, ota, hd radio w/ XM or Sirius, possibly a four port hub, maybe even an extra sat tuner. Be like one of those big Onkyo receivers.


E* tried that with a couple of their flagship receivers. It turns out to be very expensive for the standard configuration and there was lots of confusion about which module did what. In the end, the functionality that needed to be updated (MPEG4 decoding) was not made available.


----------



## ned23

I wonder if anyone has actually seen this new OTA box? I am curious to know if it happens to have an anolog output along with the usb output. If it does maybe DirecTv figured out a way to tap into the voucher money from the digital TV transition?


----------



## Maruuk

It hasn't been built yet. DTV has some 3rd party outfit probably reverse engineering it from any number of cheap USB tuners on the market. Watch them ream us for twice what they're going on the street for.


----------



## racetrek

Sirshagg said:


> Lets wait and see what you actually get


I just got my HR20-100s replacement today for the HR21-700 that was installed last week. I just wish I didn't have to go through all of the frustration prior the DirectTV finally agreeing to do a swap.


----------



## eatswodo

Maruuk said:


> It hasn't been built yet. DTV has some 3rd party outfit probably reverse engineering it from any number of cheap USB tuners on the market. Watch them ream us for twice what they're going on the street for.


Sounds like a business opportunity for you, as you obviously know how they are going about it. Why not try to beat them to it?


----------



## mossdaddy

I'm still using the old HD equipment. Last week I lost an HD channel for at least two days. Today I called because I've lost three HD channels. Problem is yet to be resolved but the tech gave me the sales pitch for the new HD channels. I replied that I wouldn't be switching unless I could continue to receive my OTA channels. Since no one at D* would guarantee that I would get a H20 and HR20, I was not switching. He of course took my zip and determined that I couldn't get local HD channels from D* at this time. Obviously he wasn't going to make a prediction about the future availability or even if it would ever happen.

When I indicated I was waiting for an OTA solution for the 21's, he stated that there would be no such solution and that D* was getting out of that business and "wanted to supply all my local channels with the sat". When I mentioned the supposed DirecTV announcement that a solution was in the works, he said he wasn't aware of any such solution. 

I guess the really irritating thing about DirecTV is their utter disregard for their customers. I can understand not wanting to announce things and over promise in advance. That's the Microsoft business model. But when a customer can't get a straight answer on whether to expect a solution to the problem from a company representative, then you can only presume the solution is not really a priority for serving the customer base. I'm left expecting a Microsoft solution - "trust us and wait".


----------



## inkahauts

Bushwacr said:


> Noone has yet to show that DirectV loses money on new equipment installed. Their 10K and 10Q supplementary information suggests otherwise. I assume that info is accurate.


I think everyone knows that they loose money up front, but make it back in the long run, per customer. Unfortunately, companies seem to always get into hot water with their accounting books when they try and date things a certain way so that it doesn't look like they are ever loosing money on something in favor of making money in the long run, i.e. enron. Thats why I have respect for Directv noting a loss on every HR unit sold up front, and then looking at sub and programing fees separate. There isn't any phony money in the accounting books this way, and I really don't want to be the guy paying the next adelphia cable company for his tv programing.....


----------



## Lord Vader

inkahauts said:


> I think everyone knows that they loose money up front...


When exactly would they "tighten" money, then?


----------



## harsh

ned23 said:


> I am curious to know if it happens to have an anolog output along with the usb output. If it does maybe DirecTv figured out a way to tap into the voucher money from the digital TV transition?


In order to qualify for the voucher, the device cannot produce anything fancier than an stereo RF output or composite video and stereo audio via RCA line level jacks.

DVI, HDMI, component, VGA, component, Firewire, Ethernet and Wi-Fi are expressly excluded. It also specifies that the data not be delivered digitally which would add USB.

I suppose we'll find out soon enough what qualifies as the coupons are supposed to start rolling out next month.

BTW, there have been no USB dual tuner solutions to date. Given the vagaries of USB, I think it unlikely that it could be pulled off.


----------



## Doug Brott

mossdaddy said:


> When I indicated I was waiting for an OTA solution for the 21's, he stated that there would be no such solution and that D* was getting out of that business and "wanted to supply all my local channels with the sat". When I mentioned the supposed DirecTV announcement that a solution was in the works, he said he wasn't aware of any such solution.


That would be because DIRECTV has not made an announcement at this point. Tom made an announcement here based on information that he has. If it's any consolation, Tom hasn't even told me what this solution is to this point. It's not really a surprise that the CSR is unaware of announcement since it hasn't happened. What is a bit surprising is that he/she said DIRECTV was getting out of that business .. I doubt that information very much.



mossdaddy said:


> I guess the really irritating thing about DirecTV is their utter disregard for their customers. I can understand not wanting to announce things and over promise in advance. That's the Microsoft business model. But when a customer can't get a straight answer on whether to expect a solution to the problem from a company representative, then you can only presume the solution is not really a priority for serving the customer base. I'm left expecting a Microsoft solution - "trust us and wait".


The only assumption you should make is that the CSR team has not yet been informed of this information. Neither has the public, officially.


----------



## kristina

Lord Vader said:


> When exactly would they "tighten" money, then?


Completely off topic, but bless you, Lord Vader!


----------



## Lord Vader

I do believe that is the first time a Sith Lord has ever been greeted with a "bless you."


----------



## psweig

Lord Vader said:


> When exactly would they "tighten" money, then?


:lol: :lol: :lol: I was hoping someone would notice that.


----------



## arob

arob said:


> Any idea when?
> 
> I've just reordered my free 2 DVR's and 5LNB from D* stipulating that the install must be with the HR20. I have no hopes that HR20's will be delivered. My plan is to order, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder.. and so on until either I get the HR20 or other OTA solution or D* stops taking my orders and I go to another provider.


The installer came out this morning and was turned away with the HR21's. I called Directv and rescheduled again for next Tuesday the 18th.

Now before you start your "what an idiot" and "too much time on your hands" replies let me tell you two things.. First I was on the phone with D* for 4.5 minutes (I timed it). Second thing is that the installer said the HR20's were going to be in stock in the next two days. When I asked him how he knew he siad the manager of dispatch told him explicitly.

When I see the HR20 I will believe it. Maybe next Tuesday. At worst I will have to waste another 4.5 minutes on the phone with D*. It's hell being a one man army


----------



## ned23

harsh said:


> BTW, there have been no USB dual tuner solutions to date. Given the vagaries of USB, I think it unlikely that it could be pulled off.


Can a USB 2.0 connection actually support two individual full bitrate OTA HD streams simultaneously?


----------



## gio12

could this be it?


----------



## ned23

gio12 said:


> could this be it?


It could be but that has one tuner.


----------



## RAD

ned23 said:


> It could be but that has one tuner.


So, the Top Rated/Award Winning/Best HD DVR (according to E* subs) has only one ATSC tuner.


----------



## bhelton71

harsh said:


> <SNIP>
> BTW, there have been no USB dual tuner solutions to date. Given the vagaries of USB, I think it unlikely that it could be pulled off.


Wow - hadn't even thought about that. I guess I assumed 2 USB ports - but there is only 1 on the HR21.

If they could get it to work - HDHomeRun is looking better


----------



## harsh

RAD said:


> So, the Top Rated/Award Winning/Best HD DVR (according to E* subs) has only one ATSC tuner.


Which is the cross that E* subscribers must bear. The point is that the topic of the thread is an assurance (at least) that the solution will be dual tuner.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

RAD said:


> So, the Top Rated/Award Winning/Best HD DVR (according to E* subs) has only one ATSC tuner.


Yeah but they can also record 3 things at once too.


----------



## JackKnife

bhelton71 said:


> I guess I assumed 2 USB ports - but there is only 1 on the HR21.


Actually, the HR21 has 2 USB ports. But, I doubt if too many people would want a tuner hanging out the front.


----------



## Maruuk

My HR21 has developed so many problems right out of the box I'm not going to wait for some tacked-on dongle that'll cost me another $100, I'm going to throw this rotten fish right back in DTV's face. This POS box is clearly not ready for prime time.


----------



## arob

I spoke with the D* install company and they confirmed that I will be getting two HR20's on Tuesday. The CSR kept me on hold and came back and said the dispatch manager reported the HR20 to now be in stock. I'm crossing fingers and remaining skeptical...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

gio12 said:


> could this be it?


It's always possible that there are some shared components but I don't think that's "it.".


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, I just spent 3 harrowing hours on the phone bouncing between DTV and Ironwood, their national installer/service co. After the smoke cleared, DTV is now Fed-Exing me an HR20 for Monday arrival and the service tech will come out Monday to install it on a swap out basis with my dysfunctional and decontented HR21. Have no idea if this will be a refurb or not, but I don't care at this point. Sounds like DTV is playing catchup, but at least they're playing.


----------



## Doug Brott

Maruuk said:


> Sounds like DTV is playing catchup, but at least they're playing.


Yes, I would believe this to be true as well. The release of the new HD channels probably put a bigger strain on DIRECTV than even they projected. Hopefully this is a sign of improvement and good luck to you in getting the services you are looking for.


----------



## Maruuk

Thanks, even I'm a little taken aback by their cooperation. They were stonewalling me for the first 2 hours and 55 minutes, tho. I like the idea that they're handling the shipping of the HR20, and taking the local installer out of the hardware loop. That removes 99% of the hassle right there. I wonder if they just ordered a bunch more from the factory once the OTA problem became riotous? This reminds of the infamous Vista to XP downgrade embarrassment for MS.


----------



## mossdaddy

Doug Brott said:


> That would be because DIRECTV has not made an announcement at this point. Tom made an announcement here based on information that he has. If it's any consolation, Tom hasn't even told me what this solution is to this point. It's not really a surprise that the CSR is unaware of announcement since it hasn't happened. What is a bit surprising is that he/she said DIRECTV was getting out of that business .. I doubt that information very much.
> 
> The only assumption you should make is that the CSR team has not yet been informed of this information. Neither has the public, officially.


First, I didn't talk to a CSR this was supposedly a tech who was originally trying to figure out why my HD channels keep disappearing. Second, even the official D* forum continues down the line that there is no OTA solution for the 21's. This techie went in a dissertation on why it was unreasonable for me to expect D* to OTA channels when I can't get them from cable. Third, we only have one person who supposedly was told by a "source" (Deep Throat?) at some point before his post in October that a solution was coming. Pretty thin evidence to hang your hat and all the speculation of this thread on. But all the fan boys are sure stirred up.


----------



## Doug Brott

mossdaddy said:


> First, I didn't talk to a CSR this was supposedly a tech who was originally trying to figure out why my HD channels keep disappearing. Second, even the official D* forum continues down the line that there is no OTA solution for the 21's. This techie went in a dissertation on why it was unreasonable for me to expect D* to OTA channels when I can't get them from cable. Third, we only have one person who supposedly was told by a "source" (Deep Throat?) at some point before his post in October that a solution was coming. Pretty thin evidence to hang your hat and all the speculation of this thread on. But all the fan boys are sure stirred up.


Perhaps, but I know who Tom's sources are so I trust the information.


----------



## Maruuk

One source says a solution is coming, another lists the company making the unit and specifies it's an external USB tuner to ship in early '08. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.

That is, unless this new willingness by DTV to ship HR20's to non-local service folks becomes an effective strategy and not just a finger in the dike. As it were.


----------



## Incog-Neato

The DirecTV posted policy now is: *If you CANNOT get HD locals from them by sat*, and if you "advise them" AFTER you get your HR21 because you lost your OTA, they will replace it with an HR20. They also state for the first time officially that a solution will be available "LATE SPRING 2008." Their CSR's have this available:

DIRECTV is working on solution which should be available late spring, 2008. 
<clipped>
Order recovery kit To request new equipment, send escalation to xxxxx email box. 
<clipped>
Include description of request (i.e. - Customer needs to integrate off air HD locals with receiver and currently has an HR21/H21. Please swap current HR21/H21 with an HR20/H20 so customer can integrate off air antenna HD locals with guide.)


----------



## harsh

Maruuk said:


> This reminds of the infamous Vista to XP downgrade embarrassment for MS.


The difference here is that we knew quite a bit about Vista before it plopped. We've come to expect performance hits and compatibility issues with each new version of Windows and that you should wait for service pack 1.

In this case, service pack 1 takes away a feature that is critical to quite a few (26% of the population + anyone who wants programming from PBS or a LIN station that DIRECTV has chosen not to carry) and promises that it will come back in some form in six months with an hardware key the likes of which the world hasn't seen.

It seems that the timing of the release couldn't be better in that it coincides with the supposed release of dozens of new HD LIL markets.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maruuk said:


> One source says a solution is coming, another lists the company making the unit and specifies it's an external USB tuner to ship in early '08. Sounds like a no-brainer to me.
> 
> That is, unless this new willingness by DTV to ship HR20's to non-local service folks becomes an effective strategy and not just a finger in the dike. As it were.


I'm sorry, I've been in and out this week with a cold. Which source lists what company name? I must have missed that post.

I probably could get the company name--and just as likely wouldn't be able to name it here. My intent was to get a solid statement from a source as reliable as they get that would let everyone know that the dual tuner solution is in the works.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm sorry, I've been in and out this week with a cold. Which source lists what company name? I must have missed that post.


IIRC, it was a post on AVSForum that Maruuk paraphrased.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Me thinks the wait for a solution is not so far off any more...


----------



## scp333

I just turned away my second install this week. Both the contractor and DIRECTV told me that there is no way they can get me an HR20. So they had me cancel my order.


----------



## RapidRealm

Maruuk said:


> Yeah, I just spent 3 harrowing hours on the phone bouncing between DTV and Ironwood, their national installer/service co. After the smoke cleared, DTV is now Fed-Exing me an HR20 for Monday arrival and the service tech will come out Monday to install it on a swap out basis with my dysfunctional and decontented HR21. Have no idea if this will be a refurb or not, but I don't care at this point. Sounds like DTV is playing catchup, but at least they're playing.


I went thru exactly the same thing. They ended up Fed-Exing an HR21 to me so I had to just ship it back.


----------



## Maruuk

Well TBlazer's report is certainly consistent with my experience. But like you say, RR, check the box immediately to see if it's a 21! There is so much confusion and screwing up in this whole swap out realm it's up to us consumers to fight the good fight and remain vigilant to the end. I'll find that 3rd party company name...


----------



## Maruuk

"HR21-ATSC SOLUTION Supply Chain and Engineering are working on an ATSC solution for the HR21. The solution will be external to the unit (not integrated) and is on target to be available in early 2008. Your voices have been heard and we will keep you posted on next steps and timing. Please contact your Director or Regional Vice President if you have any comments or concerns."

So I guess it's not really a company name, sounds like they're just referring to their internal dev divisions. There is a company called "Supply Chain Engineering" that is a hardware and software producer and manages 50 hardware manufacturers including some wireless products. Maybe that's what they mean.


----------



## Maruuk

Well surprise, we ARE dealing with liars crooks after all. After 3 hours on the phone Friday and DTV SWEARING they were going to ship me an HR20, they sent me another POS &*&^&^%$#@ 21.

The new CSR today sez: "The woman on Friday HAD to have known she had no control over what unit is sent to you. There's nothing on our end we can do about that."

Then after another interminable Muzak hold, she comes back and says, "Oh, or tech staff says they have a fix for you sir! They said you go down to Circuit City or Best Buy, and get one of those USB dongles. And plug it in. And that will solve your problem sir!"

You can't write this stuff. Who am I kidding, I'm dealing with Rupert Murdoch here. This is the technological equivalent of Bill O'Reilly on the other end of the phone. Spin, scam, lies, ignorance and stupidity abounds.

DTV is not your friend.


----------



## harsh

Maruuk said:


> "HR21-ATSC SOLUTION Supply Chain and Engineering are working on an ATSC solution for the HR21.


Parsed out, this suggests that the purchasing and engineering departments are independently working on solutions. Hardly the acts of an organization who has identified the solution, much less a timeline.

Since it isn't our business to parse their private communications, we're left with hoping that they'll have a solution on the recently given schedule.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Maruuk said:


> Well surprise, we ARE dealing with liars crooks after all. After 3 hours on the phone Friday and DTV SWEARING they were going to ship me an HR20, they sent me another POS &*&^&^%$#@ 21.
> 
> The new CSR today sez: "The woman on Friday HAD to have known she had no control over what unit is sent to you. There's nothing on our end we can do about that."
> 
> Then after another interminable Muzak hold, she comes back and says, "Oh, or tech staff says they have a fix for you sir! They said you go down to Circuit City or Best Buy, and get one of those USB dongles. And plug it in. And that will solve your problem sir!"
> 
> You can't write this stuff. Who am I kidding, I'm dealing with Rupert Murdoch here. This is the technological equivalent of Bill O'Reilly on the other end of the phone. Spin, scam, lies, ignorance and stupidity abounds.
> 
> DTV is not your friend.


Chill. It's Christmastime. Don't you think calling people who simply made an error "crooks and liars" is a little over the edge? I'll bet if you thought about it, maybe once or twice you made an error yourself.


----------



## mossdaddy

ShiningBengal said:


> Chill. It's Christmastime. Don't you think calling people who simply made an error "crooks and liars" is a little over the edge? I'll bet if you thought about it, maybe once or twice you made an error yourself.


Please. His is not an isolated case. There is just no real evidence that anyone at DirecTV is or will do anything to take care of customers with OTA problems. My numerous calls to DirecTv over the past couple of months tells me that prevailing story is, sorry, if you don't like not having OTA, but we aren't going to do anything about it. We know that cable is no real choice and we don't think you'll go to Dish either. So stew in it until you can accept you'll have to find your own solution to the problem.

Even the latest posts with quotes are not attributed to any real source and there is no link to actual announcements. Also, late spring is at least 6 to 7 months from the "solution is coming" announcement. Think how long this thread will be then. And will we really see a product just in time for it's time to get a life and go outside season.

Oh I did see a forum post at directv with the HR21's don't do OTA. It's here.
http://forums.directv.com/pe/action...read?rootPostID=10329767&returnExpertiseCode=

Still waiting for something more substantial than my source says so.


----------



## ShiningBengal

mossdaddy said:


> Please. His is not an isolated case. There is just no real evidence that anyone at DirecTV is or will do anything to take care of customers with OTA problems. My numerous calls to DirecTv over the past couple of months tells me that prevailing story is, sorry, if you don't like not having OTA, but we aren't going to do anything about it. We know that cable is no real choice and we don't think you'll go to Dish either. So stew in it until you can accept you'll have to find your own solution to the problem.
> 
> Even the latest posts with quotes are not attributed to any real source and there is no link to actual announcements. Also, late spring is at least 6 to 7 months from the "solution is coming" announcement. Think how long this thread will be then. And will we really see a product just in time for it's time to get a life and go outside season.
> 
> Oh I did see a forum post at directv with the HR21's don't do OTA. It's here.
> http://forums.directv.com/pe/action...read?rootPostID=10329767&returnExpertiseCode=
> 
> Still waiting for something more substantial than my source says so.


I had an HR20 go south on me about 6 weeks ago. DirecTV came out with no replacement whatever. Just needed to check out the fact that the unit was bad. I asked when I would get a replacment and was told that the local contractor was completely out of HR20's, and had very few HR21's.

I told the guy I would wait for an HR20. A week or so, a technician called and said he had a replacement for me. Asked what it was and was told it was an HR21 as that was all they could get. I replied I needed an HR20, so he needn't come out.

Then I called DirecTV and explained the situation. They told me they would FedEx an HR20 to me and I should get it in a week or so. It was a brand new (not refurbished) unit, including all the cables, remote, etc.

I returned everything but the new HR20 and the smart card. They took care of my "OTA" problem just fine. Of course I didn't come unglued and start calling people names to get my issue addressed.

Someone made a mistake, but I don't believe anyone deliberately lied to me. I received an apology, and they corrected the error.

I doubt very seriously that DirecTV has a policy of hiring liars and crooks. I've been with them for 10 years, and have never come to that conclusion.


----------



## Doug Brott

Maruuk said:


> Then after another interminable Muzak hold, she comes back and says, "Oh, or tech staff says they have a fix for you sir! They said you go down to Circuit City or Best Buy, and get one of those USB dongles. And plug it in. And that will solve your problem sir!"


OK .. that's funny .. perhaps it will be the way of the future, but we don't know anything at this point other than a solution will be available (as you already know).

Perhaps the device you receive will be an HR20 ..


----------



## loudo

Maruuk said:


> Then after another interminable Muzak hold, she comes back and says, "Oh, or tech staff says they have a fix for you sir! They said you go down to Circuit City or Best Buy, and get one of those USB dongles. And plug it in. And that will solve your problem sir!"


This story is getting a little to unbelievable. I have a hard time believing a tech person would say something like this, knowing no such item currently exists.

Many of us that have had to deal with this issue have just been told right off the bat, they can't guarantee what we get, and if we definitely want a HR20, to go out and purchase one from a retailer. Most CSRs are well aware of the OTA problems they are running into with the release of the HR21, and the two times I have called about replacing regular receivers for HR20's (once for a friend and once for myself) they were very honest and up front with me.


----------



## Maruuk

It will be no surprise to anyone who's ever dealt with DTV on the phone that many of the CSRs are, to be most charitable...uninformed. Even in what they term "the technical support" area. I reported what she said almost word for word. Incredible.

If anything, I'm being kind to DTV after the outrages they have heaped upon us by bait-and-switching customers with no LIL HD into no OTA, then lying, spinning, and misdirecting us about the fix. They say one thing, do another, ship 21s when they say they'll ship 20s, tell one person they have no 20s, then occasionally, when they feel like it, actually ship a 20 (or in a case elsewhere in these pages TWO!) out.

They allow no communication between customer and installer (which would save hours of everyone's time), thyey screw up appointments, the installers never show up on time, are uninformed, truculent baboons, and ultimately the very product they are hawking, the 21, has serious QC problems with audio sync and dropout issues, no slo-mo button, no dual buffers, and lest we forget, no HD OTA.

It's great you folks with HD LIL get to pontificate about how great DTV is. Because you could care less about the issue. You haven't had to deal with these DTV scumbags and their lies and endlessly time-wasting scams. Lucky you.

The rest of us have to live in the very real world of a substandard, decontented product and company. Easily summed up in two words: Rupert Murdoch.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Maruuk said:


> It will be no surprise to anyone who's ever dealt with DTV on the phone that many of the CSRs are, to be most charitable...uninformed. Even in what they term "the technical support" area. I reported what she said almost word for word. Incredible.
> 
> If anything, I'm being kind to DTV after the outrages they have heaped upon us by bait-and-switching customers with no LIL HD into no OTA, then lying, spinning, and misdirecting us about the fix. They say one thing, do another, ship 21s when they say they'll ship 20s, tell one person they have no 20s, then occasionally, when they feel like it, actually ship a 20 (or in a case elsewhere in these pages TWO!) out.
> 
> They allow no communication between customer and installer (which would save hours of everyone's time), thyey screw up appointments, the installers never show up on time, are uninformed, truculent baboons, and ultimately the very product they are hawking, the 21, has serious QC problems with audio sync and dropout issues, no slo-mo button, no dual buffers, and lest we forget, no HD OTA.
> 
> It's great you folks with HD LIL get to pontificate about how great DTV is. Because you could care less about the issue. You haven't had to deal with these DTV scumbags and their lies and endlessly time-wasting scams. Lucky you.
> 
> The rest of us have to live in the very real world of a substandard, decontented product and company. Easily summed up in two words: Rupert Murdoch.


Rupert Murdoch has absolutely zero, zilch, nada to to with DirecTV. He and his family have a controlling minority interest in News Corp (30%) which formerly owned a controlling minority interest in DirecTV (40%).

News Corp divested itself of its interest in DirecTV in April of this year.


----------



## Bista-Buster

Maruuk said:


> It will be no surprise to anyone who's ever dealt with DTV on the phone that many of the CSRs are, to be most charitable...uninformed. Even in what they term "the technical support" area. I reported what she said almost word for word. Incredible.
> 
> If anything, I'm being kind to DTV after the outrages they have heaped upon us by bait-and-switching customers with no LIL HD into no OTA, then lying, spinning, and misdirecting us about the fix. They say one thing, do another, ship 21s when they say they'll ship 20s, tell one person they have no 20s, then occasionally, when they feel like it, actually ship a 20 (or in a case elsewhere in these pages TWO!) out.
> 
> They allow no communication between customer and installer (which would save hours of everyone's time), thyey screw up appointments, the installers never show up on time, are uninformed, truculent baboons, and ultimately the very product they are hawking, the 21, has serious QC problems with audio sync and dropout issues, no slo-mo button, no dual buffers, and lest we forget, no HD OTA.
> 
> It's great you folks with HD LIL get to pontificate about how great DTV is. Because you could care less about the issue. You haven't had to deal with these DTV scumbags and their lies and endlessly time-wasting scams. Lucky you.
> 
> The rest of us have to live in the very real world of a substandard, decontented product and company. Easily summed up in two words: Rupert Murdoch.


And they say the HR20/21 is WAY better than the TiVo. Yeah, right.

Unbelievable. I'd say they're deceptive. They're trying to push their own product an force people to give up their TiVos.

You are right about one thing. The HR series is nothing more than a machine that suits Murdoch's style of a DVR, which stinks. I seriously believe that the dual tuners are not going to be addressed because Murdoch has no intentions to do so. That goes for most of the other features too. The SL, recent searches limit of 25 hits and the dumb category search guide layout. As said by many, not just in here but elsewhere, that the programming is sloppy. Not faulty. This remids me of an inferior GPS system built into a car with no real features. Just a basis GPS and that's how I see the HR series. As a basic DVR with no really good features in it. More like useful features. Yeah, the features are there but the format of them sucks!!


----------



## Lord Vader

I'm a big TIVO lover, still having and using HR10-250s and HDVR2s. However, I do like the HR20-700. I use it probably 80% of the time, the remaining 20% goes with my TIVOs. Overall, is the HR20-700 better than the HR10-250? That depends on the individual user. For me, in many respects it is, while in one or two big areas--DLB, for example--it isn't.


----------



## Maruuk

There's really two things: the box itself which is not evil, just lacking in what certain customers require due to DTV's inability at this time to provice LIL HD to them.

And then there's DTV's customer relationship in this matter, which is pretty dang evil. To be most charitable, it can be agreed on that DTV has handled this matter poorly. To be less charitable as we folks in the country like to speak plainly, well let's just say we speak plainly about it. Use your imagination.


----------



## Ken S

ShiningBengal said:


> Rupert Murdoch has absolutely zero, zilch, nada to to with DirecTV. He and his family have a controlling minority interest in News Corp (30%) which formerly owned a controlling minority interest in DirecTV (40%).
> 
> News Corp divested itself of its interest in DirecTV in April of this year.


Actually, News Corp hasn't divested itself of DirecTV yet. the transfer of shares to Liberty has not been approved. As it stands they remain the controlling shareholder of DirecTV. As it stands Rupert Murdoch remains the chairman of the DirecTV board of directors.


----------



## Bista-Buster

Lord Vader said:


> I'm a big TIVO lover, still having and using HR10-250s and HDVR2s. However, I do like the HR20-700. I use it probably 80% of the time, the remaining 20% goes with my TIVOs. Overall, is the HR20-700 better than the HR10-250? That depends on the individual user. For me, in many respects it is, while in one or two big areas--DLB, for example--it isn't.


I'm not a picky user as you may think. Try these things and PM to let me know what your findings were. Test them out on both the TiVo (any TiVo) and the HR20 DVR receiver you have.

Recording history.

Category Sort (Looking for Science Fiction) within the guide. (tell me how long it took you to get all the way through it.

Check out how the preset category sort is. The one you need to press the guide key twice.

I guess I just like sensible style, smart style, programming. I keep hearing about improvements to the DVR, but what? Activating the USB port? WOW. How about fixing the basics first, like dual tuner or unlimited SL, better search engines and the guide. Now that's one area that really sucks. The guide. What a screen waster. They had that stupid guide grid type style ever since DirecTV go started. I remember that style grid way back when, when satellite was only a dream. It sucked then and it sucks now. I guess that's why Murdoch sucks too. I think he tailored this DVR to his style of liking. If you don't like it, tough, that's the way HE (Murdoch) wants it and that's what it's going to be!

Seriously, as far as the main functions are concerned, I have seen no improvements in it. All they did is kept the same style of design and made it function correctly. They changed nothing. Just fixed what they wanted in the first place.


----------



## csgo

ShiningBengal said:


> Rupert Murdoch has absolutely zero, zilch, nada to to with DirecTV. He and his family have a controlling minority interest in News Corp (30%) which formerly owned a controlling minority interest in DirecTV (40%).
> 
> News Corp divested itself of its interest in DirecTV in April of this year.


I think your comments would be a big surprise to both News Corp and Rupert.

News Corp still owns DirecTV and Rupert is still Chairman of DirecTV.

I'm sure all parties involved hope this changes very soon.


----------



## GP245

ShiningBengal said:


> Rupert Murdoch has absolutely zero, zilch, nada to to with DirecTV. He and his family have a controlling minority interest in News Corp (30%) which formerly owned a controlling minority interest in DirecTV (40%).
> 
> News Corp divested itself of its interest in DirecTV in April of this year.


You are totally misinformed!

Rupert to this day, by way of News Corp, continues to have operational control of DirecTV!

Two areas of Washington, the F.C.C. and the Justice Department, have not yet acted upon the transfer of controlling intetrest to John Malone's Liberty Media (or its affiliatated companies).

Before you make such statements, you really should check out the facts.

They are publically available!!!!


----------



## mossdaddy

ShiningBengal said:


> I had an HR20 go south on me about 6 weeks ago. DirecTV came out with no replacement whatever. Just needed to check out the fact that the unit was bad. I asked when I would get a replacment and was told that the local contractor was completely out of HR20's, and had very few HR21's.
> 
> I told the guy I would wait for an HR20. A week or so, a technician called and said he had a replacement for me. Asked what it was and was told it was an HR21 as that was all they could get. I replied I needed an HR20, so he needn't come out.
> 
> Then I called DirecTV and explained the situation. They told me they would FedEx an HR20 to me and I should get it in a week or so. It was a brand new (not refurbished) unit, including all the cables, remote, etc.
> 
> I returned everything but the new HR20 and the smart card. They took care of my "OTA" problem just fine. Of course I didn't come unglued and start calling people names to get my issue addressed.
> 
> Someone made a mistake, but I don't believe anyone deliberately lied to me. I received an apology, and they corrected the error.
> 
> I doubt very seriously that DirecTV has a policy of hiring liars and crooks. I've been with them for 10 years, and have never come to that conclusion.


I don't think anyone at DirecTV has "directly" lied to me either. I've been a customer since 1996. The people you have to deal with are incredibly uninformed. I prefer to believe it isn't a part of a business plan. I doubt their management could actually pull that off.

However, if there was an realization on DirecTV's part that they needed an OTA solution, there would be an announcement where regular customers could know that and plan accordingly. Their customer service would know about it, and the forums would include that information when they answer related questions. Since that still doesn't happen this long after the supposed need was announced to the poster here, it takes an incredible amount of faith to believe one comment in the face of the regularly posted evidence to the contrary posted here. There is only an comment from an unnamable source back in October against a long line of actual experiences to the contrary.

Not that anyone at DirecTv would care.


----------



## kevinwmsn

How about one of these for the solution:

http://www.replaytv.com/

According to http://www.replaytv.com/Personal_HD_at_Pepcom_Release.pdf
it supports to multiple tuners. They just need a linux driver and integrate it to the programming for it to work on the hr21. They bought replayTV for a reason... maybe this can be one of the reasons.


----------



## Maruuk

The CSRs are left completely confused by their supervisors in this matter. So sometimes they just tell you what you want to hear to blow you off, sometimes they tell you misinformation fed to them from their superiors, and sometimes they actually talk to the right person in tech support and the LIL-less customer actually gets sent a 20, which is theoretically the stated policy of the company.

They just don't have their act together on this at all, and are wasting vast amount of customer and internal employee resources needlessly. I get a different story every time I call them. A functional company does not allow such a huge problem to last this long without a clear cut and unambiguous response to their customer base. I feel like a New Orleans survivor trying to deal with FEMA.

"You're doin' a heckuva job, Rupert!"


----------



## Maruuk

kevin--You're so right--the inexpensive external dual-tuner USB technology is out there right now. Can't imagine the firmware upgrade incorporating same into the DVR is rocket science. In fact a DTV technician just told me to go buy one of them at Best Buy and just stick it into the USB port. "That'll solve your problem." He may actually be not that far off!


----------



## ned23

Maruuk said:


> kevin--You're so right--the inexpensive external dual-tuner USB technology is out there right now.


Can you show us any dual tuner usb solution?

It doesn't appear there is enough bandwidth on usb to accommodate a dual hd tuner.

That Replay release just explains how their software can integrate other internal tuner cards with their single hd usb tuner.


----------



## RAD

ned23 said:


> It doesn't appear there is enough bandwidth on usb to accommodate a dual hd tuner.


The USB 2.0 standard is that it supports up to 480Mbps, I think that's more then enough for multiple HD streams from a USB HD tuner


----------



## dropper

RAD said:


> The USB 2.0 standard is that it supports up to 480Mbps, I think that's more then enough for multiple HD streams from a USB HD tuner


Just to add some additional support: link

HD-DVD MPEG4 needs only 36 Mbps, so 2 streams would take up 72 Mbps. You could run 13 streams (theoretically) over a USB 2.0 connection. Would be nice if you could add additional DTV tuners this way as well.

Keith


----------



## ned23

RAD said:


> The USB 2.0 standard is that it supports up to 480Mbps, I think that's more then enough for multiple HD streams from a USB HD tuner


Let me start out by saying I am not an electrical engineer but this is what I have found out according to the info I got from my searches.

That on a good day (under test conditions with one large file) USB 2.0 can be rated at 40MBs. It went on to state that running more than one file at a time seriously degrades the performance. I think they said about 30% speed degradation. That would bring us to 28 MBs. Now from the info I found was that ota hd was 13 MBs so x2 it is 26MBs, there also has to be room for a control signal to change the channel and such. You would figure there is a greater demand because of the signal streaming, no pause in incoming info for error checking. So to a layman it doesn't seam to be the path to design a dual tuner solution. Maybe that extra esata port would work.

I don't know how accurate the info I found is, I am sure to be educated on this matter.


----------



## RAD

ned23 said:


> Let me start out by saying I am not an electrical engineer but this is what I have found out according to the info I got from my searches.
> 
> That on a good day (under test conditions with one large file) USB 2.0 can be rated at 40MBs. It went on to state that running more than one file at a time seriously degrades the performance. I think they said about 30% speed degradation. That would bring us to 28 MBs. Now from the info I found was that ota hd was 13 MBs so x2 it is 26MBs, there also has to be room for a control signal to change the channel and such. You would figure there is a greater demand because of the signal streaming, no pause in incoming info for error checking. So to a layman it doesn't seam to be the path to design a dual tuner solution. Maybe that extra esata port would work.
> 
> I don't know how accurate the info I found is, I am sure to be educated on this matter.


We're talking different throughput, 'B' and 'b'. I'm using bits (b) and you're talking bytes (B). 26MB = 208Mb, 8 bits in a byte, so plenty of capacity for multiple HD streams.


----------



## ned23

RAD said:


> We're talking different throughput, 'B' and 'b'. I'm using bits (b) and you're talking bytes (B). 26MB = 208Mb, 8 bits in a byte, so plenty of capacity for multiple HD streams.


You say tomato I say tomaato

As long as there actually is "plenty of capacity for multiple HD streams" that is a good thing.


----------



## Tom Robertson

An OTA channel that is not carved up by subchannels is 19.3Mbs (bits/second), two would easily fit in an USB 2.0 480Mbs channel.

And I have yet to find or read about a dual tuner USB device.

Lastly, the HR21 family doesn't have too many ports that could be used for input purposes: eSATA (yeah, right), ethernet, USB, or satellite. Which makes the most sense? 

A dual tuner solution is coming. How soon depends on which parts of the forum you participate in...

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## ned23

Thanks you so much for clearing that up for me!

Happy holidays to all!


----------



## sbl

USB makes the most sense for an input device. A dual-tuner USB device is certainly feasible.


----------



## Maruuk

Read to me by a CSR off a prepared statement from DTV this morning at 4am EST:

"A solution will be in place by late Spring 2008."


----------



## jwd45244

Maruuk said:


> Read to me by a CSR off a prepared statement from DTV this morning at 4am EST:
> 
> "A solution will be in place by late Spring 2008."


Late Spring = June 20 (That's as late as Spring can be)


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, not nearly soon enough for many of us.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

So will you be able to record off of this usb connected ota tuner with the receiver or not?


----------



## Doug Brott

Mike D-CO5 said:


> So will you be able to record off of this usb connected ota tuner with the receiver or not?


I'm sure the answer to that would be yes.


----------



## mossdaddy

jwd45244 said:


> Late Spring = June 20 (That's as late as Spring can be)


So if I'd gone ahead and moved to Dish in October when D* was realizing the problem, I would have 8 months of my 18 month requirement done and plenty of time for D* to actually make the "solution" work.

And I'd get special welcome back deals as well.


----------



## Green23

Maruuk said:


> Read to me by a CSR off a prepared statement from DTV this morning at 4am EST:
> 
> "A solution will be in place by late Spring 2008."


A good solution would have been not removing OTA tuners in the first place.
Hope they make some progress.


----------



## Maruuk

Just out of good old American suicidal curiosity I'm going the last mile with DTV to see if they'll do anything. I set up what they call an "escalation" of the issue. They claimed their "escalation resolution team" would get back to me within 48 hours. Ha ha. They also told me last Friday they were shipping me an HR20. All lies.

Now tonight the tech CSR says, "I don't know why they told you they'd contact you, they don't do that."

Now this new tech CSR has submitted her own version of an escalation to some other tech division to basically hunt for the Last Remaining HR20 On Earth anywhere within the grubby mitts of DTV. I ain't exactly holding my breath.

But as anyone who has worked in a corporation knows, most employees are tools who will waste your time. But there are always the individuals hidden away in cubicles who actually care about customers and technology and doing things right. These are exceedingly rare individuals, but if you bang away at the stone edifice of the Great Heartless Corp long enough, you might shake one a them loose and make some progress.

Yeah, right.


----------



## Bista-Buster

Maruuk said:


> Just out of good old American suicidal curiosity I'm going the last mile with DTV to see if they'll do anything. I set up what they call an "escalation" of the issue. They claimed their "escalation resolution team" would get back to me within 48 hours. Ha ha. They also told me last Friday they were shipping me an HR20. All lies.
> 
> Now tonight the tech CSR says, "I don't know why they told you they'd contact you, they don't do that."
> 
> Now this new tech CSR has submitted her own version of an escalation to some other tech division to basically hunt for the Last Remaining HR20 On Earth anywhere within the grubby mitts of DTV. I ain't exactly holding my breath.
> 
> But as anyone who has worked in a corporation knows, most employees are tools who will waste your time. But there are always the individuals hidden away in cubicles who actually care about customers and technology and doing things right. These are exceedingly rare individuals, but if you bang away at the stone edifice of the Great Heartless Corp long enough, you might shake one a them loose and make some progress.
> 
> Yeah, right.


Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Just be aware that if you do get escalated to the right person, that path may not work for others.


----------



## Milominderbinder2

I just re-read the thread title and am now confused.

Does the HR21 actually have a single OTA tuner somehow internnally? Maybe an internal diplexor that is just not turned on?

Actually if the HR21 already has a Single Tuner OTA solution, I would be fine with that.

- Craig


----------



## GP245

The HR21, unfortunately, does not have any tuner!

None!

Nada!

Zilch!


----------



## arob

_order, have installer show up with HR21, cancel, 
reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel, 
reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel, _

This is what I've done so far in my plight to get my free 5LNB and pair of HR20's installed. Today was no different. The installers were good guys that made all the calls they could and couldn't come up with HR20's. The only bright spot this go round is the installer gave me his cell number and he promised to find out if there are any HR20's coming in and let me know. He said to not bother with D* until he finds out the status.

Guess I'm in limbo for now..


----------



## racetrek

arob said:


> _order, have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder,have installer show up with HR21, cancel,
> reorder, have installer show up with HR21, cancel, _
> 
> This is what I've done so far in my plight to get my free 5LNB and pair of HR20's installed. Today was no different. The installers were good guys that made all the calls they could and couldn't come up with HR20's. The only bright spot this go round is the installer gave me his cell number and he promised to find out if there are any HR20's coming in and let me know. He said to not bother with D* until he finds out the status.
> 
> Guess I'm in limbo for now..


I went ahead and let them install the HR21 and in less than a week got a new HR20 replacement in the mail. I gave up on CSRs and finally just sent an email from directv.com stating my issue. They responded with a standard reply then I responded to that email stating that it was not acceptable. Somebody from the email escalation department called me and after a short discussion agreed to send me the HR20.

Maybe this same avenue will work for others.


----------



## arob

Thanks for the tip race. I'll give this a try.


----------



## Bista-Buster

Sounds like we have to beg and plead with DirecTV. It's like they own us or something.:nono:


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, that's a sad commentary on the state of DTV's customer relations. The number of hours I've had to devote to this just to get a shred of coherence or even a stated policy from them is nuts, and I still have neither.


----------



## Maruuk

It's funny, all they had to do when they brought out the 21 was warn us clearly right up front it had no OTA tuners and that some folks aren't going to get LILs digitally for a while so either find a 20, or deal with it. That would have been fair and straight with the customer.

Instead they put lipstick on the pig and tried to pass it off as equivalent, even telling some customers as above that it HAD OTA tuners!

But now they're compounding the scam with further 3 Card Monte routines. Telling each customer a different story, divide and conquer.

So when folks with LILs or 20's who come on here sneering at the outrage some of us feel, I say regard the facts. This is not some cranks posting. We know exactly of what we speak. This is literally an ongoing outrage, and as consumers we must demand to be treated fairly and with respect, and get value for the hard-earned dollars they are holding without reciprocating with the product we have a right to expect.


----------



## arob

The CSR I spoke with the morning was very nice and fairly honest. She said a customer educated her on the difference between HR20/HR21 and she agreed 100% all this hassle for me and her could be averted if they could know their inventory and qualify customers needs. "Do you have an antenna on your roof or in house to receive local channels" Yes = HR20, No=HR21. Real simple.


----------



## Maruuk

Well there you go. Only one CSR overtly lied to me, the rest have been largely un- or mis-informed leading to vast amounts of time wasting on all our parts. Why they can't issue a simple memo to all CSRs is beyond me. Why they can't simply do another limited run of HR20s for all the folks they can't service with LILs also confounds me. 

The is the worst of classic corporate beaurocracy: confusion, no communication, conflicting scenarios, vague promises of future fixes, CSRs making stuff up, no policy. Let's face it folks, we're dealing with Dunder-Mifflin here.


----------



## Bista-Buster

arob said:


> The CSR I spoke with the morning was very nice and fairly honest. She said a customer educated her on the difference between HR20/HR21 and she agreed 100% all this hassle for me and her could be averted if they could know their inventory and qualify customers needs. "Do you have an antenna on your roof or in house to receive local channels" Yes = HR20, No=HR21. Real simple.


Now THAT makes sense. Are you gonna market it? I want some of that at my place of work!!!


----------



## arob

The installation supervisor came by my house yesterday evening and was extremely apologetic about not being able to supply me an HR20. His regional manager was busting his chops over all his warehouse inquiries for HR20's. He had to educate his management about the problem.

I guess Directv thought they would roll out the HR21 and nobody would notice the difference, seriously I mean that. CSR's and installers sure weren't notified. It's been left to the customers to educate them. 

Racetrak - I sent an email to D* using the form you have to fill out on the customer service page. I assume this is what you were referring to? I'll be patient but there was no confirmation email, nothing.


----------



## racetrek

arob said:


> The installation supervisor came by my house yesterday evening and was extremely apologetic about not being able to supply me an HR20. His regional manager was busting his chops over all his warehouse inquiries for HR20's. He had to educate his management about the problem.
> 
> I guess Directv thought they would roll out the HR21 and nobody would notice the difference, seriously I mean that. CSR's and installers sure weren't notified. It's been left to the customers to educate them.
> 
> Racetrak - I sent an email to D* using the form you have to fill out on the customer service page. I assume this is what you were referring to? I'll be patient but there was no confirmation email, nothing.


I think I got an initial email response within a day stating someone else from the proper department would respond within 24 hours.


----------



## HeTz

racetrek said:


> I think I got an initial email response within a day stating someone else from the proper department would respond within 24 hours.


I used Racetrek's suggestion to use the Customer Service email function via DirecTV.com. I received my replacement HR20-100s replacement yesterday with ZERO hassle.

It appears that DirecTV Customer Service is aware of the problem and has a solution in place to get customers an HR20 if they want one.


----------



## arob

I hope you guys are right. HeTz - did you have to escalate after your first email? 

I was careful to not make any Comcast threats in my message but to simply point out that I've been a happy customer for 12 years and would like to continue and am willing to make a two year committment as long as I'm not losing programming and that the HR21 would have me losing local HD channels.


----------



## Doug Brott

And let's hope that spring 2008 means sooner rather than later in the the year so that we can put this issue to rest once and for all.


----------



## HeTz

arob said:


> I hope you guys are right. HeTz - did you have to escalate after your first email?
> 
> I was careful to not make any Comcast threats in my message but to simply point out that I've been a happy customer for 12 years and would like to continue and am willing to make a two year committment as long as I'm not losing programming and that the HR21 would have me losing local HD channels.


It was automatically escalated. The original CSR said she forwarded my issue to a "Specialist". That was it...


----------



## arob

Much thanks. I'll let you know...


----------



## Maruuk

I'm in the same boat on the email front. I was the first DTV customer in CA and they referenced my long loyalty to the company. Ha ha. Maybe it'll shake something loose from em, who knows.


----------



## AllGoNoShow

I had a new install today....DirecTV does not offer locals in HD in my area so I made it very clear and double checked with them that I wanted the HR20. They showed up at my door with an HR20-700....install went great. The guy said that they have 2 pallet fulls of H21s and only 5 HR20s left but they try to give the customer what he wants if there are any requests.

One question for your guys....the tech installed a "mirrored line" (thats what he called it) so I could watch my 2nd TV upstairs off of the one reciever downstairs (I hardly ever watch the upstairs one and never watch both at the same time so I didn't buy a 2nd receiver)....he said to get it to work though I need to buy an "RF modulator" and install it (and then an RF remote if I want to be able to control the 2nd TV with the one receiver). Is this accurate? And where do I purchase this stuff?!

Nick


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RF modulator...

Best Buy.. about $20... will take your non-hd signal output (the yellow/red/white connections), and turn it into the traditional "Channel-3"

As for an RF remote... you can order one from DirecTV.Com if your installation didn't come with an RF remote (check teh model number of the remote, top left to see if it has RF on it


----------



## Doug Brott

AllGoNoShow said:


> I had a new install today....DirecTV does not offer locals in HD in my area so I made it very clear and double checked with them that I wanted the HR20. They showed up at my door with an HR20-700....install went great. The guy said that they have 2 pallet fulls of H21s and only 5 HR20s left but they try to give the customer what he wants if there are any requests.
> 
> One question for your guys....the tech installed a "mirrored line" (thats what he called it) so I could watch my 2nd TV upstairs off of the one reciever downstairs (I hardly ever watch the upstairs one and never watch both at the same time so I didn't buy a 2nd receiver)....he said to get it to work though I need to buy an "RF modulator" and install it (and then an RF remote if I want to be able to control the 2nd TV with the one receiver). Is this accurate? And where do I purchase this stuff?!
> 
> Nick


Congrats Nick on both your success and being User #60000 .


----------



## MikeR7

Earl Bonovich said:


> RF modulator...
> 
> Best Buy.. about $20... will take your non-hd signal output (the yellow/red/white connections), and turn it into the traditional "Channel-3"


Radio Shack has a nice little one I use, I think it was around $20 also.


----------



## cygnusloop

MikeR7 said:


> Radio Shack has a nice little one I use, I think it was around $20 also.


You can probably use an old VCR, too, if you have one laying around. If it has a "line input", it will work as a modulator.


----------



## VicF

This really SUCKS big time, my second HR20 may be going bad and now I would have to loose my OTA to get a replacement. I renewed my contract back in August and if I am going to get screwed with less service than I signed up for D* should wave the cancelation fee if I have to leave D*. That would be another 5 calls and many hours on the phone with $7.50/hour CSR's with ZERO authority. All the headache because some bean counter decides to save probably $10 per DVR.. absolute stupidity!

Each customer that has a problem without OTA probably eats up $400+ worth of time, discounts etc. So much for saving money on the DVR manufacturing.


----------



## Maruuk

Definitely! I've burned hours and hours of their CSR and tech time already just trying to get a straight answer. Ain't got one yet.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Definitely! I've burned hours and hours of their CSR and tech time already just trying to get a straight answer. Ain't got one yet.


What different answer are you looking for... that you can't get here?


----------



## lman

Earl Bonovich said:


> What different answer are you looking for... that you can't get here?


Why don't we have DLB. You fell into that one.


----------



## Maruuk

Unless you're prepared to ship me your HR20 Earl, you don't have the answer.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Seems like you'd have better luck spending a few minutes on the phone with Valueelectronics, BB, CC, Satellite, Amazon, etc. just getting one thru retail channels. Then have DIRECTV give you credits as needed.

Right now, sadoun shows them available: http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/DirecTV/HR20-700-DirecTV-Hi-Def-MPEG4-HDTV-receiver.htm

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Maruuk

O ya, I'd do that in a minute, but DTV has stated categorically they won't refund a cent of my money. I think my local Costcos still have some 20s kickin around. But alas, I'm dealing with unreasonable bureaucrats who admit they screwed up (though not in so many words of course), yet refuse to be flexible or even responsive in any way to the problem.

My latest email 24-hour response promise has just expired with zero response. Q'ell surprise.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Unless you're prepared to ship me your HR20 Earl, you don't have the answer.


To what question?

And I have at least one HR20 sitting in a box... that I can ship.
What do you want to pay for it?

If you are asking for the answer for what the ATSC solution is.
I actually have the EXACT answer of what it will be... but I am not allowed to share it yet.


----------



## Lord Vader

I'll take it! A buck three-eighty.


----------



## Drew2k

Lord Vader said:


> I'll take it! A buck three-eighty.


I thikn the *answer* Earl has is worth a LOT more than a buck three-eighty!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Drew2k said:


> I thikn the *answer* Earl has is worth a LOT more than a buck three-eighty!


Just a bit.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Drew2k said:


> I thikn the *answer* Earl has is worth a LOT more than a buck three-eighty!


drew... love the avatar!! :lol:


----------



## Maruuk

DTV won't let anybody else solve our problems, and they refuse to solve it themselves. The answer is: don't take no for an answer. Even having to pay an extra $100 for their fershlugginer clunky EXTERNAL USB tuner that should have been inside the box in the first place (heck, we PAID for it--I didn't notice any price reduction on the decontented 21) is insulting and usurous to their customers.

By ignoring us, they just bought themselves a million dollars of bad publicity across the web. Money well spent.


----------



## arob

I'm going the email route trying to get some help from D* in getting HR20's. I filled out the form and sent the email going on 3 days. No confirmation mail. No response. Hmm.. another dead end?


----------



## ganjamaster

Earl Bonovich said:


> To what question?
> If you are asking for the answer for what the ATSC solution is.
> I actually have the EXACT answer of what it will be... but I am not allowed to share it yet.


cruddy signal degrading diplexers.


----------



## hasan

ganjamaster said:


> cruddy signal degrading diplexers.


Yet another "Can't take yes for an answer." ?


----------



## tuff bob

Earl Bonovich said:


> And I have at least one HR20 sitting in a box... that I can ship.


I thought you couldn't transfer leased units ... did you really cough up the cash to own the box?


----------



## 1948GG

I'm scratching my head a bit (uh... more than a bit) on this one. The 'going price' for a brand new HR20-100 is almost under $200 ( the 'last of the model run' -700's are hovering around $260+ or thereabouts), and the 'new' HR21's (true, available just about everywhere) are around $250+.

So, any USB ATSC tuner module would just about have to be zero cost. For folks (here) that seem to want to always slice the 'thin edge of the wedge' on price issues, it's pretty darn 'not making sense', unless the HR21 and the unseen (as of yet) USB ATSC tuner module has some sort of super capability that is (generally) unknown. 

So, Uh..?


----------



## Maruuk

Yeah, the need for the ext tuners puts a spotlight on DTVs failure to deliver HD LILs to a significant potion of their customer base. Thus they are incentivized to simply mail them out to everyone who needs one for free to try to tamp down the bad publicity. But we are talking 6 months+ for this, and that's a long time to be getting hammered on every DVR forum in the known universe. 

They are playing catchup, but still have no short-term solutions what with the 20's basically drying up in their own distribution chain. If they were smart, which they're not, they'd simply buy up every 20 from every national chain and distribution center in the country and pass them on to their customers at break even. I bet there are thousands available if you look for em.

Either that or suck it up and pay for another limited run of 20s to stem the flow of blood until the birds can beam the LILs in.


----------



## arob

In short.. A smart comany making a significant change would:

-- Inform their CSR's of the change
-- Inform their installers of the change
-- Provide an alternate solution before rescinding the original feature
-- Let their customers know what is happening

I run a team of computer support folks. D* was my example in our weekly meeting of how we don't want to be.


----------



## Drew2k

AirRocker said:


> drew... love the avatar!! :lol:


Why, thank you! I crafted it myself, out of pixels and seasonal cheer.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maruuk said:


> Yeah, the need for the ext tuners puts a spotlight on DTVs failure to deliver HD LILs to a significant potion of their customer base. Thus they are incentivized to simply mail them out to everyone who needs one for free to try to tamp down the bad publicity. But we are talking 6 months+ for this, and that's a long time to be getting hammered on every DVR forum in the known universe.
> 
> They are playing catchup, but still have no short-term solutions what with the 20's basically drying up in their own distribution chain. If they were smart, which they're not, they'd simply buy up every 20 from every national chain and distribution center in the country and pass them on to their customers at break even. I bet there are thousands available if you look for em.
> 
> Either that or suck it up and pay for another limited run of 20s to stem the flow of blood until the birds can beam the LILs in.


They are playing catchup with whom? They have led Dish network forever in HD locals.

They have pushed many local channels to start their transition to HD process.

They have worked with the FCC to get the locals moving sooner. (As has Dish network, btw.)

They have been actively building and launching satellites (a many year process) just for HD.

They have completely developed and lead the way in Ka satellite delivery to the entire US with a single dish.

I know you are very angry and upset. But please be careful with your arguments. I support your right to be angry and frustrated, even when I know you will eventually get the OTA you deserve.

Happy Holidays, everyone!
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I just looked up and realized there are 1,112 posts in this thread! Pretty amazing when it seems like the positions were pretty well established by post #50.


----------



## 69hokie

Controversial topic no doubt.


----------



## papa_azteca

arob said:


> The CSR I spoke with the morning was very nice and fairly honest. She said a customer educated her on the difference between HR20/HR21 and she agreed 100% all this hassle for me and her could be averted if they could know their inventory and qualify customers needs. "Do you have an antenna on your roof or in house to receive local channels" Yes = HR20, No=HR21. Real simple.


This will never work because many of us "lie" to get what we want anyway so that it would deplete their inventory from those that really need, like those that DIRECTV does not provide HD Locals in. Again, WANT vs NEED and many of us would justify a lie because we WANT it (and that would include saying "well I had it before it was replaced".

It wouldn't surprise me if they start "holding" HR20s for non HD LIL areas and this will be done automaticlly by zip code. This is the only way that DIRECTV can make sure that it is out of the hands of agents that give away too much for either not wanting to deal with an angry/beligerant customer or from the "whoa is me".

Has there been a solution released by DIRECTV or are we still guessing? If there has been please refer me to the post #.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The solution is in the works as we speak. I do not have detailed information yet as to timeline or pricing. Just that it will be available and dual tuner.

I'm hoping I'll learn more at CES in January.

Happy Holidays, everyone!
Tom


----------



## 1948GG

Tom Robertson said:


> The solution is in the works as we speak. I do not have detailed information yet as to timeline or pricing. Just that it will be available and dual tuner.


In engineering circles, those are known as "famous last words". Or, "don't hold your breath". Kinda like....hmmm.... I surely hate to bring it up, but the SWM? I was looking back at the original 'release' thread, and yep, it was right at the beginning of January, 2007. Just a reminder....

Honestly, with the capacity of DirecTV10 in Ka spot beams, we're seeing the roll out of many markets (both new and additional channels) pretty much every week now, and I'm sure that DirecTV11 will increase the pace. And, the PBS agreement really helps as well!

But until ALL the HD channels are available in my market (including PBS, CW, and MNT), I'll hold onto my HR20-700 and (hopefully HR20-100 when it ships), until it is pryed out of my... you get the drift.

Will I ever get a HR21 type? Sure, this time next year or later, when I can 'upgrade' it to ATSC. But maybe by then it'll be a moot point where I live now, MAYBE not where I plan on moving to...


----------



## billsharpe

Tom Robertson said:


> The solution is in the works as we speak. I do not have detailed information yet as to timeline or pricing. Just that it will be available and dual tuner.
> 
> I'm hoping I'll learn more at CES in January.
> 
> Happy Holidays, everyone!
> Tom


It appears that the "solution" is coming along at least three months after the need for the solution.

Better scheduling a few months ago would have helped; better communication with the manufacturers, CSR's, installers, and customers would have helped.

It looks as if the problem will be resolved "real soon now..."

Bill


----------



## loudo

Stuart Sweet said:


> I just looked up and realized there are 1,112 posts in this thread! Pretty amazing when it seems like the positions were pretty well established by post #50.


But it was good this thread happened. It reminded many of us, like myself, of the fact the HR21 doesn't have OTA, and gave us a chance to locate and purchase a HR20 while there were still some around. I was going to wait until after the beginning of the year to change my H20 for the HR20, but decided to move on it quicker.

I have see the comment about CSRs not knowing about the lack of OTA tuner, in the HR21, but the two I worked with during my calls to DirecTV, knew all about it. Both of them informed me that the best way to get a HR20 was to find one retail and purchase it, which I did. The person I had to educate was the sales people at Circuit City, they had no clue of the difference between the HR20 and the HR21.


----------



## Maruuk

_They are playing catchup with whom? They have led Dish network forever in HD locals._

They are playing catchup in finally trying to resolve this issue with their customers. They should have had a plan to deal with this months ago. I think you've just come up with great slogan for DTV: "We suck way less than Dish!"

_They have pushed many local channels to start their transition to HD process._

Obviously many fewer than they anticipated as the CSR line I got consistently at first was, "You don't need OTA, we send you all your locals digitally!" They finally dropped those talking points after a few hundred flamethrowers in the face from customers.

_They have worked with the FCC to get the locals moving sooner. (As has Dish network, btw.) _

This is the same FCC that has just denied me access to networks.

_They have been actively building and launching satellites (a many year process) just for HD._

Since many of us are painfully aware of just how many years it's going to take, all the more reason for them to have maintained their production of HR20s.

_They have completely developed and lead the way in Ka satellite delivery to the entire US with a single dish._

As the first DTV customer in the state of California, I've always been a big supporter of DTV up to now. First with the original receiver, then the blessed Tivo years. Now with the 21 I've entered the Forbidden Zone.

_I know you are very angry and upset. But please be careful with your arguments. I support your right to be angry and frustrated, even when I know you will eventually get the OTA you deserve._

I endeavor to stick to the hard facts of the case and if possible, pass on any helpful info to fellow LIL-challenged 21ers. I think many of us are interested to see if DTV is willing to step up with an actual plan over the next few days, not in 6 months.


----------



## mossdaddy

I'm not angry. DTV isn't worth my anger. I find it interesting that fanboys think that I should be willing to give up my HD OTA stations to get the likes of Cartoon network in HD. I find it amazing that they really believe a company as unorganized as DTV could actually solve a problem like this in a year, much less a few weeks. I find it inconceivable that they could believe and expect us to believe that they've been given the straight dope while their public pronouncements and customer relations give the exact opposite information. What are you guys smoking?

I've been a customer for over 10 years. I found their customer service to be a slight cut above cable and just under AT&T mobile.

My prediction is that after waiting a few more weeks for DTV to give me an OTA solution that allows me to move to the new HD service, they will announce that all us old HD customers will have to take an H21 or HR21 and trust them for a solution or go away. Then having wasted weeks hoping that DTV would come through, finally having no recourse but switch to dish.

Any takers?


----------



## Que

billsharpe said:


> It appears that the "solution" is coming along* at least three months after the need for the solution.*
> 
> *Better scheduling a few months ago would have helped; better communication with the manufacturers, CSR's, installers, and customers would have helped.*
> 
> It looks as if the problem will be resolved "real soon now..."
> 
> Bill


If it went so smoothly, what would we talk about? :hurah:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Maruuk said:


> Yeah, the need for the ext tuners puts a spotlight on DTVs failure to deliver HD LILs to a significant potion of their customer base. Thus they are incentivized to simply mail them out to everyone who needs one for free to try to tamp down the bad publicity. But we are talking 6 months+ for this, and that's a long time to be getting hammered on every DVR forum in the known universe.


Significant customer base?
They have HD LiL's in 70% of the viewing public.
And in most of the markets the top 4 channels are available.

And that is only going to increase when D11 is launched.

If you haven't noticed... where is teh bad publicity for all of this?
Out side of the discussion forums, you rarely see this aspect of the HR21 mentioned more then just a by-line.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

billsharpe said:


> It appears that the "solution" is coming along at least three months after the need for the solution.
> 
> Better scheduling a few months ago would have helped; better communication with the manufacturers, CSR's, installers, and customers would have helped.
> 
> It looks as if the problem will be resolved "real soon now..."
> 
> Bill


Three months ago... it was stated that there will be asolution.
Actually... three months, maybe they shouldn't have authorized me and Tom to let you know it is comming...

So you all could keep wondering, and not get expectations all fired up.

As for what Tom stated... 
Given that I do have some more information about the solution...

This "controversal" thread... isn't going to be around drastically longer.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mossdaddy said:


> I'm not angry. DTV isn't worth my anger. I find it interesting that fanboys think that I should be willing to give up my HD OTA stations to get the likes of Cartoon network in HD. I find it amazing that they really believe a company as unorganized as DTV could actually solve a problem like this in a year, much less a few weeks. I find it inconceivable that they could believe and expect us to believe that they've been given the straight dope while their public pronouncements and customer relations give the exact opposite information. What are you guys smoking?
> 
> I've been a customer for over 10 years. I found their customer service to be a slight cut above cable and just under AT&T mobile.
> 
> My prediction is that after waiting a few more weeks for DTV to give me an OTA solution that allows me to move to the new HD service, they will announce that all us old HD customers will have to take an H21 or HR21 and trust them for a solution or go away. Then having wasted weeks hoping that DTV would come through, finally having no recourse but switch to dish.
> 
> Any takers?


Last time I checked...
You don't have to give up anything.

There are at least two other OTA DVR solutions out there, available for your purchase...

There are tuners built into modern TV's and you can purchase one yourself.

You all just want a cheaper... single solution.....
DirecTV has done nothing to FORCE you to abandon your ATSC connections.

They have simply removed it from THEIR equipment.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Earl Bonovich said:


> This "controversal" thread... isn't going to be around drastically longer.


Those R&D guys sure have had a busy and impressive year. Thanks for the update Earl.


----------



## Maruuk

That's nonsense. DTV snuck the decontented tuners in on customers with zero notification after taking their money. Even the installers made no note of the switch, many of them had no idea themselves. The unit codes are in tiny lettering on some nondescript part of the box. There's no way for the consumer to know at the time of delivery there's no OTA tuners. The CSRs were telling everyone that the service included HD LILs for everybody. So don't tell me the consumer had a choice--the consumer got bait-and-switched here bigtime. And once DTV grabs your cash, they don't give it back.

Alternatives? Dish??? Yes, they do suck even more than DTV. Not an alternative. And some of us get no cable whatsoever, or AT&T U-verse.

Besides, as I said, once DTV bait-and-switches you into a 21, you're trapped. You have zero alternative unless you're willing to flush your $300 down the crapper.

A mysto-crypto solution coming soon? I'll believe it when I see it. So far DTV has nothing but vaporware and unobtanium, and they charge you $300 to lease it.


----------



## RandyMarlow

Earl Bonovich said:


> Last time I checked...
> You don't have to give up anything.
> 
> There are at least two other OTA DVR solutions out there, available for your purchase...
> 
> There are tuners built into modern TV's and you can purchase one yourself.
> 
> You all just want a cheaper... single solution.....
> DirecTV has done nothing to FORCE you to abandon your ATSC connections.
> 
> They have simply removed it from THEIR equipment.


Sorry to jump in on a direct response, but I also got stuck with an HR21 and I've got mixed feelings. Judging by many of the posts on the boards, I'm not the only one.

Background: Upgraded to HR10-250 in Dec '05 and waited eagerly for the Fresno, CA HD locals via sat because the local ABC HD OTA signal is marginal at my house. Was disappointed in early 2006 when I found out my receiver couldn't receive the locals because of MPEG4. (Wow, only 6 months until obsolescence!) Ordered new HD DVR from D* in September '07 for new MPEG4 HD offerings, and it was installed in mid-October. Had nothing but problems, and finally was able to get a capable tech out with a replacement after multiple calls to D* convincing them teh receiver was defective. (Strong signals but hang-ups galore, not playing recordings, no control over live showings, etc) Found out during installation about the lack of OTA tuner. Was told they had no HR20's left, and the HR21 solved the problems.

So, I *DID* give up something when my defective HR20 was replaced with the HR21 - 10 channels I'd had for the better part of 2 years with my HR10-250. Was I mad? Yes! I called D* and let them know that I felt screwed with the HR21 because I'd "upgraded" to the D* HD DVR (HR20) and had everything I wanted and needed. They replaced it with a less-capable product, and I was essentially told "too bad". While I'm not a Rhodes scholar, I think losing features/functions/abilities goes against the principle of an upgrade. And that's what I was purchasing/leasing - an upgrade, not a downgrade.

I would liken this experience to upgrading from a Honda Civic a 6-cylinder Honda Accord sedan that would have been great had it not turned out to be a lemon. When the dealer is finally agrees to replace the new Accord, they sub a 4-cylinder Accord because the 6-cylinder has been discontinued and can't be delivered. I complain, but I'm told "too bad, this is what we have now". Oh, do you want to drive in the new "high speed" lanes and on the new freeways? It requires a 6-cylinder... Maybe the car analogy is a stretch, but that's how I feel. I did everything I needed to get the new channels and not give up the OTA tuner so I could keep the "sub-channels" along with PBS, & CW, and then got downgraded without any choice.

It's just not good business sense to have an upgrade less capable than it's replacement. D* should be keeping the HR20 as an active product alongside the HR21, not replacing it. Then again, it goes right along with taking UHD & HDNet Movies out of the HD Package and making customers get a new add-on to get them back.

Wow - I just figured out D* new business model! Less for more! Woohoo... we're all gonna be screwed sooner or later!


----------



## ShiningBengal

Maruuk said:


> That's nonsense. DTV snuck the decontented tuners in on customers with zero notification after taking their money. Even the installers made no note of the switch, many of them had no idea themselves. The unit codes are in tiny lettering on some nondescript part of the box. There's no way for the consumer to know at the time of delivery there's no OTA tuners. The CSRs were telling everyone that the service included HD LILs for everybody. So don't tell me the consumer had a choice--the consumer got bait-and-switched here bigtime. And once DTV grabs your cash, they don't give it back.
> 
> Alternatives? Dish??? Yes, they do suck even more than DTV. Not an alternative. And some of us get no cable whatsoever, or AT&T U-verse.
> 
> Besides, as I said, once DTV bait-and-switches you into a 21, you're trapped. You have zero alternative unless you're willing to flush your $300 down the crapper.
> 
> A mysto-crypto solution coming soon? I'll believe it when I see it. So far DTV has nothing but vaporware and unobtanium, and they charge you $300 to lease it.


What is the correct amount for it to be leased at? Would you prefer every monthly lease payment to be, say, $25/mo with no lease down payment? Who is supposed to pay for the equipment? Santa Claus? Let's say you paid $1000 for it and you owned it. Let's say after a year, you no longer wanted keep DirecTV and you put it on eBay. You are lucky, and you get $500 for it. You just paid $500 to "lease" it for a year.


----------



## Maruuk

Let's say I get cable and pay NOTHING for it. Ever heard of $300 cell phones that cost NOTHING? Because you sign up for a long term plan and the provider makes a ton of money off you selling CONTENT. Don't tell me we need to pay $300 up front to own NOTHING. Verizon, Comcast and Sprint beg to differ.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Maruuk said:


> Let's say I get cable and pay NOTHING for it. Ever heard of $300 cell phones that cost NOTHING? Because you sign up for a long term plan and the provider makes a ton of money off you selling CONTENT. Don't tell me we need to pay $300 up front to own NOTHING. Verizon, Comcast and Sprint beg to differ.


Ever hear of the good cellphones, as opposed to the bargain-basement, no-frills, throwaway type? They cost $150-$350. I believe you can get a standard definition DirecTV for no upfront lease payment. Your analogy kind of falls apart taking these facts into consideration.

You fail to see the point: Someone must pay for the use of the receiver. It wasn't free to DirecTV. Obviously the consumer must pay for it, since Santa Claus retired a few years ago.

The consumer pays for it in one of two ways. He can purchase it outright. In the case of the HR21 it is around $750. (You get no included support on it, since DirecTV doesn't own it.) Obviously, not an attractive option. You have put $750 into something that you could have had for significantly less had you chosen to lease.

The second option is that you lease it. The lease must allow the lessor to recover all of his costs, plus make a profit. If an HR21 lasts 3.5 years, you will pay 42 lease payments or $210 to lease it. DirecTV's cost on these units is purported to be around $400, although perhaps removing the OTA feature reduces that somewhat--maybe $50 as a guess?

So DirecTV has a cost of $350 on the HR21. And you want to lease it for its entire useful life for $210. DirecTV loses $140 for the privilege of allowing you to lease it.

Get it now?

Cable may "give" you your equipment for no upfront cost, but when I compared Comcast fees (post-teaser period) to DirecTV for comparable service, they were about 30% more than DirecTV. So you pay for the equipment in much higher subscriber fees.

You have to pay for the equipment one way or another. I think the $299 downpayment on the lease is fair considering the very small monthly lease fee.


----------



## carl6

I know that if I had the same amount of equipment (DVRs and receivers) on my local cable provider (Comcast), I would be paying almost twice as much per month total because of their higher lease fees. Also, I'm not even sure they will allow a customer to have five DVRs. So I'm happy to pay a little more up front, and a whole lot less over the term of the contract. At the end of my committment period, I will save money with the DirecTV model.

Carl


----------



## mossdaddy

Earl Bonovich said:


> Last time I checked...
> You don't have to give up anything.
> 
> There are at least two other OTA DVR solutions out there, available for your purchase...
> 
> There are tuners built into modern TV's and you can purchase one yourself.
> 
> You all just want a cheaper... single solution.....
> DirecTV has done nothing to FORCE you to abandon your ATSC connections.
> 
> They have simply removed it from THEIR equipment.


If you are referring to the 20's, there are none in my market. Several calls to DTV has not gotten me one. They aren't available for me to purchase. So what are the other two OTA solutions to DTV?

The only one they give me is plug my antenna directly into the TV which 
1. loses the ability to see the network schedule and the DTV schedule at the same time.
2. means the whole system is harder for less technical family members, babysitters etc. to use
3. requires me to continually switch sources to look for input.

One of the reasons you don't hear a lot of people complaining about the new receivers is that most users either don't want to deal with complexity and are going to take what ever DTV decides to give them or just have no clue what is available.

You are right. I want a single simple solution. I don't get my jollies playing with the remote. If DTV isn't interested in my needs, then maybe some other company will be.

There will be other new solutions and someday and DTV may wish they had concentrated just a little bit on customer needs to create customer loyalty.


----------



## mossdaddy

ShiningBengal said:


> What is the correct amount for it to be leased at? Would you prefer every monthly lease payment to be, say, $25/mo with no lease down payment? Who is supposed to pay for the equipment? Santa Claus? Let's say you paid $1000 for it and you owned it. Let's say after a year, you no longer wanted keep DirecTV and you put it on eBay. You are lucky, and you get $500 for it. You just paid $500 to "lease" it for a year.


You really need to go back and read his post. He wasn't complaining about the cost of the receiver. He was complaining about the quality of the equipment and the loss of OTA.

Like cell phones, you can't really tell how much you pay for up front and how much you pay in the monthly fee. But when you can get a pc for $400 it's hard to believe they are short much up front.


----------



## poppo

mossdaddy said:


> If you are referring to the 20's, there are none in my market. Several calls to DTV has not gotten me one. They aren't available for me to purchase.


You just aren't looking hard enough. They can still be found on-line. Some at a slight 'premium' price and some at the regular $299 retail price. Google is your friend.


----------



## Tom Robertson

carl6 said:


> I know that if I had the same amount of equipment (DVRs and receivers) on my local cable provider (Comcast), I would be paying almost twice as much per month total because of their higher lease fees. Also, I'm not even sure they will allow a customer to have five DVRs. So I'm happy to pay a little more up front, and a whole lot less over the term of the contract. At the end of my committment period, I will save money with the DirecTV model.
> 
> Carl


You made me wonder, I had heard Comcast does limit DVRs in some locations, so I called. They will let me put 9 HD DVRs on my account--at $275/month, about $100/month than I'm paying now! (give or take on the taxes).

And without OTA that DIRECTV supports or will soon support on all my DVRs.

Interesting...maybe I'll switch in 10 months--so I can pay more, get fewer HD channels, poorer PQ, the agony of Comcast (tho the person I talked to tonight truly was very nice; he should go work for DIRECTV ), oh and give up the NFL ST. :grin:

Happy Holidays (in HD) 
Tom


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## Maruuk

Comcast always provides locals, no need for OTA. None of us would have any problem with the 21 if DTV provided locals to everyone (besides the fact that it is truly a piece of electronic junk--mine has a whole slew of serious audio glitches and crazy, time-consuming "no signal present" pages between modes.) Ergonomics-wise and function-wise/QC-wise, my old Tivo2 slaughtered this cheap, decontented toy.


----------



## RAD

Maruuk said:


> Comcast always provides locals, no need for OTA.


For ATSC/HD stations, not always. Last I knew in the Chicago Comcast market they don't carry WCIU-DT which carries a number of Cubs/Sox/Bulls home games in HD.


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## Tom Robertson

Our Comcast does not begin to cover all the digital locals. Only "most" of the main channels. (Have to double check if they get all of the main subchannels now.)

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## ShiningBengal

mossdaddy said:


> You really need to go back and read his post. He wasn't complaining about the cost of the receiver. He was complaining about the quality of the equipment and the loss of OTA.
> 
> Like cell phones, you can't really tell how much you pay for up front and how much you pay in the monthly fee. But when you can get a pc for $400 it's hard to believe they are short much up front.


This amount was mentioned in the last shareholders' meeting. It was also mentioned that DirecTV was working hard to get the cost down (i.e., the HR21 w/o OTA).


----------



## ShiningBengal

mossdaddy said:


> You really need to go back and read his post. He wasn't complaining about the cost of the receiver. He was complaining about the quality of the equipment and the loss of OTA.
> 
> Like cell phones, you can't really tell how much you pay for up front and how much you pay in the monthly fee. But when you can get a pc for $400 it's hard to believe they are short much up front.


My second reading reveals no such thing to me. Clearly he was complaining about having to pay $300 in addition to his complaints about the lack of OTA and other issues.

His follow up post makes it clear that he feels having to pay any downpayment at all on the lease, let alone $300, is not justified, i.e., the fact that you can get a cheap cellphone for free (in exchange for a subscription, so not really "free.")


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Maruuk said:


> That's nonsense. DTV snuck the decontented tuners in on customers with zero notification after taking their money. Even the installers made no note of the switch, many of them had no idea themselves. The unit codes are in tiny lettering on some nondescript part of the box. There's no way for the consumer to know at the time of delivery there's no OTA tuners.
> 
> Besides, as I said, once DTV bait-and-switches you into a 21, you're trapped. You have zero alternative unless you're willing to flush your $300 down the crapper.
> 
> A mysto-crypto solution coming soon? I'll believe it when I see it. So far DTV has nothing but vaporware and unobtanium, and they charge you $300 to lease it.


I was going to take the time to go through this line by line, but determined there is so much wrong information here, it would take an hour to respond.

Just one example:

*"unit codes are in tiny lettering on some nondescript part of the box"*

*This information is plain wrong* - model numbers are clearly listed on each box. Once you open the box - the HR20 series with OTA is silver, the HR21 series without is black. You don't have to work for NASA to tell that kind of difference. How that is "nondescript" or is beyond comprehension.

After reading the latest 50 or so posts, its clear that this is an endless bantor about nothing of substance. All this talk about "bait-and-switch" is pure garbage.

DirecTV made a business decision to have more than one model of HD DVR box, one with OTA support and one without. Whether people here want to remain in denial or simply have their own agenda, fact is, most people do not ever need or desire OTA - most, not all. For those that do, they can still get an OTA-enabled HD DVR. More important, Earl has made is completely and repeatedly clear that DirecTV has every intention of continuing support for OTA reception in one form or another.

Rather than accept this, and rather than appreciate the fact that there is such a commitment, people here continue to complain, whine, and generally nag about something that is, quite frankly, already explained in plain English.

If there is an issue upon installation - you can canel the install and look for alternative service. Simple.

There is a solution today and will be one tomorrow. End of story.

Don't waste your time addressing this post, as there is nothing more for me to add, and I won't respond. There are plenty of real thread with real useful information here, as opposed to wasting time discussing something endlessly like this one...


----------



## loudo

If you are really in need of an HR20, go to one of these web sites that are selling them and order one. We all hated to see them remove the OTA tuner from the HD DVR but enough is enough.

http://www.electronicexpress.com/product?prod_id=10572&refer=6&cpc=6

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000EVHU5I?smid=ASH1H6YCFH4EF&tag=dealtime-ce-feed-20&linkCode=asn

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Satellite-systems/DirecTV-Systems.htm

http://item.express.ebay.com/Brand-...0QQitemZ120201278429QQihZ002QQcmdZExpressItem

http://www.homepriceclub.com/item.aspx?eid=1&pid=105680


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## Tom Robertson

loudo, thanks for that awesome research! 

Merry Christmas!
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

loudo said:


> If you are really in need of an HR20, go to one of these web sites that are selling them and order one. We all hated to see them remove the OTA tuner from the HD DVR but enough is enough.
> 
> http://www.electronicexpress.com/product?prod_id=10572&refer=6&cpc=6
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000EVHU5I?smid=ASH1H6YCFH4EF&tag=dealtime-ce-feed-20&linkCode=asn
> 
> http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Satellite-systems/DirecTV-Systems.htm
> 
> http://item.express.ebay.com/Brand-...0QQitemZ120201278429QQihZ002QQcmdZExpressItem
> 
> http://www.homepriceclub.com/item.aspx?eid=1&pid=105680


Thanks for the info, but the Amazon link is for the H20 not, not the HR20. However, after doing a search for the HR20, I come up with the
DIRECTV Plus DWO2-10021 HD DVR. Where'd they come up with that model number? And you save a whopping $1.00.


----------



## Maruuk

Never said ALL the locals, just a reasonable spread. Way more than I get from DTV at the moment.

Obviously I was prepared to spend $300 to lease a DVR because I did. Duh. I just never could have imagined any company would call a box the exact same thing (DIRECTV Plus DVR) one day as the day before, yet have ripped out a critical component and go sell it for the same amount. My understanding from August on was that the DIRECTV Plus DVR had a functioning OTA ATSC dual tuner set in it. Wait, I was correct...IT DID! When did it not? Aha, DTV isn't telling us that, are they? One day, suddenly, without any warning...IT DID NOT.

Now frankly I could not believe that because any company that dumb as to leave themselves open to millions in a class action lawsuit would be too dumb to make a DVR that worked right. Wait, I was correct again!

Tonight my HR21 crashed. No pic, no hard drive access, no live, no nada except the overlay guide graphics. You're still doin a huckuva job, Rupert!

Directv: We exist so class action lawyers like John Edwards can live in 25,000 square foot pleasure domes.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Maruuk said:


> Never said ALL the locals, just a reasonable spread. Way more than I get from DTV at the moment.
> 
> Obviously I was prepared to spend $300 to lease a DVR because I did. Duh. I just never could have imagined any company would call a box the exact same thing (DIRECTV Plus DVR) one day as the day before, yet have ripped out a critical component and go sell it for the same amount. My understanding from August on was that the DIRECTV Plus DVR had a functioning OTA ATSC dual tuner set in it. Wait, I was correct...IT DID! When did it not? Aha, DTV isn't telling us that, are they? One day, suddenly, without any warning...IT DID NOT.
> 
> Now frankly I could not believe that because any company that dumb as to leave themselves open to millions in a class action lawsuit would be too dumb to make a DVR that worked right. Wait, I was correct again!
> 
> Tonight my HR21 crashed. No pic, no hard drive access, no live, no nada except the overlay guide graphics. You're still doin a huckuva job, Rupert!
> 
> Directv: We exist so class action lawyers like John Edwards can live in 25,000 square foot pleasure domes.


There is no question DirecTV did a lousey job in communicating that the HR21 had been decontented. Those who haunt this forum, of course knew it, but the public at large did not. Very few CSR's knew it, and even the contractors who install them knew it.

However, I don't think this is the kind of class action material that put Edwards into the elite of ambulance chasing lawyers. You need to have at least a whiplash injury. Well, maybe emotional distress would do it.:lol:

You may well have received a "lemon" HR21, but they certainly aren't all that way. If it is defective, DirecTV will replace it.

That said, I have an HR21 as well as two HR20's. I haven't had a bit of trouble with the HR21, although one of my HR20's went south on me--and was replaced by DirecTV. I had to wait a week or two, but I did get an HR20. (My only reason for wanting to have OTA is PBS, and I can watch PBS offerings on the HR20's. Other than sports, there isn't much else I care about on the major networks.)

My advice is to calm down. It isn't really worth all the anxst. It's just TV. DirecTV has indicated they will have an OTA solution. In the meantime, if the lack of OTA capabilities bothers you as much as it evidently does, go to eBay and get a cheap ASTC OTA receiver. True, you won't be able to record programming, but only for a little while.

(I hope you don't really think that we exist to put John Edwards and his ilk in 25,000 sq ft pleasure domes--I certainly don't!)

Count your blessings. We have so much in the way of material things in this country. Toys really aren't that important in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## loudo

Maruuk said:


> Now frankly I could not believe that because any company that dumb as to leave themselves open to millions in a class action lawsuit would be too dumb to make a DVR that worked right. Wait, I was correct again!


Since when does it become grounds for a lawsuit when a company comes out with a different model and makes changes to it. It is pretty evident, if you buy an HR20 you get an OTA tuner, if you buy an HR21 you don't get one. The advertising for the HR20 showed it as a feature and the advertising for the HR21 doesn't. Features of a model are corporate decisions, although sometimes they are not popular ones.

Does your logic mean that if a 2008 Chevy Impala doesn't have a feature that the 2007 model did, that is grounds for a lawsuit? I don't think so.


----------



## harsh

Earl Bonovich said:


> Significant customer base?
> They have HD LiL's in 70% of the viewing public.
> And in most of the markets the top 4 channels are available.


But what of those who remain unserved and the lion's share of the markets that don't get the remaining channels or are saddled with a LIN owned station or two?

With the advent of the writer's strike, alternatives to the Big Four are at an all-time premium.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *"unit codes are in tiny lettering on some nondescript part of the box"*
> 
> *This information is plain wrong* - model numbers are clearly listed on each box. Once you open the box - the HR20 series with OTA is silver, the HR21 series without is black. You don't have to work for NASA to tell that kind of difference. How that is "nondescript" or is beyond comprehension.


When you go to the store to find an HR20, you can pretty much rest assured that the salesperson isn't going to know the difference and they aren't going to open the box to let you find out what color it is. The model number appears on one end of the box on a relatively small tag along with a bunch of other numbers. It is far from prominent and it is printed in a typeface that requires that you get friendly with the box. If they don't keep their inventory on pallets, you'll have to try to get them to wheel out a box that meets your specification from "the warehouse".

This isn't a position that a manufacturer should put the end user (or a reseller) through and it is made much worse by their failure to make it clear what you're no longer getting.

While Earl has clearly turned on the afterburners on the apologist wick, it doesn't change the fact that neither DIRECTV nor the subscribers were prepared for it.


----------



## harsh

loudo said:


> Does your logic mean that if a 2008 Chevy Impala doesn't have a feature that the 2007 model did, that is grounds for a lawsuit? I don't think so.


You can bet that if they dropped the FlexFuel feature, there would be a very large class action.


----------



## ShiningBengal

harsh said:


> You can bet that if they dropped the FlexFuel feature, there would be a very large class action.


Really? On what grounds? GM has no obligation, legal or otherwise to continue production of any model or feature.


----------



## Throckmorton

I read the features for the "DirecTV HD DVR" on both the Circuit City and Best Buy web sites, as well as D* itself, before buying my HR21.

All these resources claimed the unit I purchased would have an OTA tuner. Every last one of them. There was no mention of different models with different features. There was just the "DirecTV HD DVR".

The one I saw at Circuit City said it could record for up to 30 hours of HD programming. The web sites I read said the unit could record up to 50 hours of HD programming, and I wanted _that one_, so I went across the street to Best Buy and found one that recorded the 50 hours AND was black.

Cool! I bought that one.

I was FLOORED to find out it didn't have OTA like all the web sites assured me it did. Then I figured out the difference. I made the choice to keep the additional 20 hours of recording time and give up the OTA tuner. It was only much later that I found out the ACTUAL difference in recording time was MPEG-2 vs. MPEG-4, and that capacity of the two units was actually the same.

No, I am no rocket scientist, but I do have my own clue fully bought and paid for. These choices are NOT clearly spelled out for the casual buyer. I was ripped off for an OTA and I don't appreciate it.

ETA:
The salesmen at both stores confirmed OTA capability of either unit and even the installer said my HR21 could get OTA and that I would have to call D* and get some kind of module that hooks up in line with the SAT-IN connections to hook the OTA to. He did admit he'd never seen this model before but "they would never take out the OTA capability".


----------



## RunnerFL

Throckmorton said:


> I read the features for the "DirecTV HD DVR" on both the Circuit City and Best Buy web sites, as well as D* itself, before buying my HR21.
> 
> All these resources claimed the unit I purchased would have an OTA tuner. Every last one of them. There was no mention of different models with different features. There was just the "DirecTV HD DVR".
> 
> The one I saw at Circuit City said it could record for up to 30 hours of HD programming. The web sites I read said the unit could record up to 50 hours of HD programming, and I wanted _that one_, so I went across the street to Best Buy and found one that recorded the 50 hours AND was black.
> 
> Cool! I bought that one.
> 
> I was FLOORED to find out it didn't have OTA like all the web sites assured me it did. Then I figured out the difference. I made the choice to keep the additional 20 hours of recording time and give up the OTA tuner. It was only much later that I found out the ACTUAL difference in recording time was MPEG-2 vs. MPEG-4, and that capacity of the two units was actually the same.
> 
> No, I am no rocket scientist, but I do have my own clue fully bought and paid for. These choices are NOT clearly spelled out for the casual buyer. I was ripped off for an OTA and I don't appreciate it.
> 
> ETA:
> The salesmen at both stores confirmed OTA capability of either unit and even the installer said my HR21 could get OTA and that I would have to call D* and get some kind of module that hooks up in line with the SAT-IN connections to hook the OTA to. He did admit he'd never seen this model before but "they would never take out the OTA capability".


The sales people in the stores don't know the products they sell, never will. It's very rare to find a CC or BB sales person that knows anything about anything other than video games.

I do think it would be nice though if D* put some sort of sticker on the HR21 box that said it did not have OTA.


----------



## carl6

In researching products I am considering buying, I have never given much credence to what is said on the website of a big box store such as CC or BB. That information is compared with information from the manufacturer, and from whatever and as many web sources as I can find.

I also do not believe any sales drone. I take what they tell me, and further research it.

I work hard to make as informed a decision as I can on any purchase. It doesnt' take much effort and it usually produces great results (for me).

I see absolutely nothing with regard to the HR21 that would be basis for any kind of legal action, FTC action, FCC action, or BBB action. You can write and complain all you want, and it may help you feel better by venting, but don't expect the world to coming running to your aid on this one.

Carl


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maruuk said:


> Never said ALL the locals, just a reasonable spread. Way more than I get from DTV at the moment.
> 
> Obviously I was prepared to spend $300 to lease a DVR because I did. Duh. I just never could have imagined any company would call a box the exact same thing (DIRECTV Plus DVR) one day as the day before, yet have ripped out a critical component and go sell it for the same amount. My understanding from August on was that the DIRECTV Plus DVR had a functioning OTA ATSC dual tuner set in it. Wait, I was correct...IT DID! When did it not? Aha, DTV isn't telling us that, are they? One day, suddenly, without any warning...IT DID NOT.
> 
> Now frankly I could not believe that because any company that dumb as to leave themselves open to millions in a class action lawsuit would be too dumb to make a DVR that worked right. Wait, I was correct again!
> 
> Tonight my HR21 crashed. No pic, no hard drive access, no live, no nada except the overlay guide graphics. You're still doin a huckuva job, Rupert!
> 
> Directv: We exist so class action lawyers like John Edwards can live in 25,000 square foot pleasure domes.


I would only get the PBS channels via cable that I don't get via DIRECTV. And that is being addressed as we write.

Yes, I want OTA. I hope everyone knows that.

Yes, DIRECTV has solutions. Alas, they do take a bit of research to find right now. That is most unfortunate during this time of transition.

Yes, DIRECTV will have a solution for everyone that wants one. Earl has now said this thread won't last much longer... A very good sign. 

So, go back to having an awesome Christmas!
Tom


----------



## poppo

harsh said:


> The model number appears on one end of the box on a relatively small tag along with a bunch of other numbers. It is far from prominent and it is printed in a typeface that requires that you get friendly with the box.


Good grief. Even with this highly down-rezed, out of focus, low light picture, it's still clear as day what model it is. It took me all of 2 seconds to verify what it was (the word 'Model' was a big clue.  ). And the HR21s have a picture of a black faceplate DVR on the box that you can see from across the store.












Throckmorton said:


> I read the features for the "DirecTV HD DVR" on both the Circuit City and Best Buy web sites, as well as D* itself, before buying my HR21.
> 
> All these resources claimed the unit I purchased would have an OTA tuner.


Here is the link to the Best Buy description of the HR21 features. Please show us where it says anything about OTA.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...=product&tab=1&id=1186004963843#productdetail


----------



## Maruuk

If I bought a 2008 Chevy Impala, I would expect a heater. Now the 2007 Impala does not specifically list a heater in the list of features. But if Chevy pulled the heater out of the 2008 Impala (note they refer to the car as exactly the same name as before WITH a heater) and made zero reference to the decontenting and thousands of people bought Impalas fairly expecting it to have a heater, you're dang right there'd be a class action lawsuit. A huge one.

Note: there's nothing on the box per se that lists the precise model of the DVR. Just the generic name in huge letters all over the place: DIRECTV Plus DVR. The exact same model nomenclature as the model WITH the tuners. Only on a small paper stick-on SKU tag does the actual model number appear in tiny print. Obviously DTV is trying to obscure the difference between models. Because one has a critical feature, the other had it ripped out yet it's being sold for the same retail price.

I wouldn't be the least surprised to hear of multiple civil suits against DTV over this. Especially if they can't solve this mess fast.


----------



## Maruuk

You know, even car manufacturers as sleazy as they are act much more ethically than DTV in telling the consumer what they're buying. A decontented model is given a specific model name code: GLS, or GLX or whatever. Not only that, they tell you right up front exactly what features it has in a long listing.

DTV did what's known in auto circles as a "running change"--a change to the unit not made at a specific model year changeover time. But to cars, running changes are always made to fix, upgrade, improve a car's performance. Never to yank out a radio or a heater or the power windows.

I challenge the apologists here to name one major manufacturer who ever clearly decontented a product and then tried to pass it off as the original. 

And please, don't try to sell that Aunt Tillie from Tisdale is expected to be a close follower of this or any other fanatical enthusiast DTV HD DVR thread in order to know upfront she was about to get defrauded by DTV. The average consumer looks at the box or the online sales pitch (where I might add, it NEVER EVER references a model change!) and it says DIRECTV Plus DVR. Period.


----------



## Lord Vader

I highly doubt there'll be lawsuits over this. As poorly as they may have handled this, it doesn't warrant legal action.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

poppo said:


> Good grief. Even with this highly down-rezed, out of focus, low light picture, it's still clear as day what model it is. It took me all of 2 seconds to verify what it was (the word 'Model' was a big clue.  ). And the HR21s have a picture of a black faceplate DVR on the box that you can see from across the store.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the Best Buy description of the HR21 features. Please show us where it says anything about OTA.
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...=product&tab=1&id=1186004963843#productdetail


Yeah I think the 20's come in a white box, while the 21's come in a darker colored box.


----------



## Tom Robertson

For there to be a lawsuit, especially a class action one, there would have to actually be more than one Aunt Tilly who really wants OTA. As there really aren't that many, lawsuits won't happen. No attorney would take that one on.

The most an attorney would get in fees is 1/3 of the HR20 that DIRECTV would send in a heartbeat. 

Since a very small amount of effort will score an HR20, or a small amount of patience will let DIRECTV to stabilize the solution that is coming, expending lots of energy whining, complaining, and rabble rousing more than a single rant seems pretty silly.

I can completely understand one healthy rant from someone disappointed. I've been known to express some blue terms from time to time. (Watching poor preparation of the Packers today for instance. ) 

But to take this disappointment to a many day vehemence seems foolish. Why do that to oneself?

Why would someone want to present themselves in this manner? I get so confused. 

Merry Christmas, everyone. And please have a safe holiday season as well.
Tom


----------



## Herdfan

hdtvfan0001 said:


> model numbers are clearly listed on each box. Once you open the box - the HR20 series with OTA is silver, the HR21 series without is black. You don't have to work for NASA to tell that kind of difference. How that is "nondescript" or is beyond comprehension..


While I agree with you that there is no reason not to be able to tell the two receivers apart, we as members of this board have a level of knowledge far above the average D* consumer.

I would guess that the average D* consumer would have no idea there are different models of HR2x. They had an HR10 that had OTA and expect it to be on the next one.

Case in point, I have in-laws here and they have had D* for years and have a DirecTiVo. They asked where the "Live TV" button was on the remote. There is no way the TiVo interface should be confused with the HR20, but they didn't notice the difference. (Wife's side of the family. :lol: )

Just as I would not know the difference in capabilities between the Motorola and SA cable DVR's.


----------



## OneOfOne

to me a lot of the 'you dont need ota much longer' replies to this thread make me more irritated than the decision of dtv to stop including them. like many I waited a long time to commit to an hd dvr for this service forfeiting the discounts for a-listers, price hikes, and the like. however what I find more irritating is the self righteous whining by people who should be looking for what they want in other places, namely ebay and other sources that DO HAVE the hr20 series. thats what I did today after one last futile call to directv only to have them say 'the best deal we have is internal organs'. I was lucky I suppose to get a brand new one, or so the ad says, one of 18 available from the seller for 189 dollars. 29.99 shipping fee is excessive but ITS WHAT I WANT. too many people here and in other forums like to think they are important and that their whining is more important than logic and effort when they want something. its just not true. if you have been complaining for months, especially if youre new to directv, and you have found this site and complained here and to directv, how much less effort would it have taken to just go to ebay and get what you wanted. this is very old now. whomever is moderating this forum should just delete the thead and be done with it.


----------



## poppo

Herdfan said:


> I would guess that the average D* consumer would have no idea there are different models of HR2x. They had an HR10 that had OTA and expect it to be on the next one.


So if a person has a older laptop that had a serial port, they shoud just expect it to be on all new ones? FYI it's almost impossible to find a new laptop these days with serial ports. The bottom line it it foolish to assume anything, and to not do some research before blindly making a purchase. What happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions?


----------



## Herdfan

poppo said:


> So if a person has a older laptop that had a serial port, they shoud just expect it to be on all new ones? FYI *it's almost impossible to find a new laptop these days with serial ports.* The bottom line it it foolish to assume anything, and to not do some research before blindly making a purchase. What happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions?


I know what you mean about the serial ports on laptops. What a PITA.

And yes people need to be responsible for the actions, most people don't research their choice of TV provider to the level of a laptop purchase.


----------



## harsh

ShiningBengal said:


> Really? On what grounds? GM has no obligation, legal or otherwise to continue production of any model or feature.


The fact that FlexFuel is a popular and sought after option that became available from GM only recently is a big deal. Ford has had FlexFuel models for several years now.

It is the tidal wave of "Green" that demands features like these and without that feature, many would be disenchanted at least.

Coming soon, owners of older GM vehicles that have the OnStar feature are going to lose it unless they obtain a digital converter for it. Some are very upset that GM has abandoned analog OnStar service. The spectrum has been scheduled to go away for several years now but it wasn't until recently that they did anything better than making a note of it on their website.

There are many parallels and DIRECTV seems to be ignoring the most damaging of them.

note: GM has no plans on discontinuing FlexFuel.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

harsh said:


> There are many parallels and DIRECTV seems to be ignoring the most damaging of them.


Or... this issue is not as "universal" or as large as many of you think it is.
And the fact that have an active solution in development (ready soon)...

What else are you expecting DirecTV to do?

They clearly don't list OTA as a feature of the HR21.
It is not hard to do a basical google query for people to find that out as well.

ATSC is very important for a large enough user base, that they are spending the money necessary to develop the ATSC solution...

Which is similar to "al-carte" but on a hardware level.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Herdfan said:


> While I agree with you that there is no reason not to be able to tell the two receivers apart, we as members of this board have a level of knowledge far above the average D* consumer.
> 
> I would guess that the average D* consumer would have no idea there are different models of HR2x. They had an HR10 that had OTA and expect it to be on the next one.
> 
> Case in point, I have in-laws here and they have had D* for years and have a DirecTiVo. They asked where the "Live TV" button was on the remote. There is no way the TiVo interface should be confused with the HR20, but they didn't notice the difference. (Wife's side of the family. :lol: )
> 
> Just as I would not know the difference in capabilities between the Motorola and SA cable DVR's.


DirecTV was not providing HD LIL's when the HR10 was introduced. No markets had HD LIL's, although there were publicized plans to do so.

None of the SD DirecTiVo's had NTSC tuners in them. Eventually most, although not all major markets had LIL SD from DirecTV. That didn't happen overnight. Regardless, no SD DirecTiVo's ever had integrated tuners of any kind.

Where were you when your in-laws were buying DirecTV boxes? The "Live TV" button has nothing to do with OTA on the HR10--it is simply quick access to the guide.


----------



## GP245

I really wish the Adminstrator would close this down ASAP!!!!!

Yes, Direct was wrong in the way they have handled things!

Yes, Direct is finding some way to "fix" the problem!

Yes, the apologists for Direct continue their "it's not their fault" rants!

They seem to forget that without satisfied customers - Direct is out of business!

We appreciate their inside "info" they provide, but boy, what a heavy price to pay for their toadyish kowtowwing!

A new year is approaching, let's stop the rants and the inexcusable excuses and move on.

Enough already!


----------



## harsh

Throckmorton said:


> All these resources claimed the unit I purchased would have an OTA tuner. Every last one of them. There was no mention of different models with different features. There was just the "DirecTV HD DVR".


I was fully prepared to call baloney on this, but it turns out that you're right. Best Buy is obviously offering the HR21 and the specs don't mention an OTA tuner, but if you click on the Local Channels link, it does indeed mention getting OTA with a suitable antenna.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Maruuk said:


> You know, even car manufacturers as sleazy as they are act much more ethically than DTV in telling the consumer what they're buying. A decontented model is given a specific model name code: GLS, or GLX or whatever. Not only that, they tell you right up front exactly what features it has in a long listing.
> 
> DTV did what's known in auto circles as a "running change"--a change to the unit not made at a specific model year changeover time. But to cars, running changes are always made to fix, upgrade, improve a car's performance. Never to yank out a radio or a heater or the power windows.
> 
> I challenge the apologists here to name one major manufacturer who ever clearly decontented a product and then tried to pass it off as the original.
> 
> And please, don't try to sell that Aunt Tillie from Tisdale is expected to be a close follower of this or any other fanatical enthusiast DTV HD DVR thread in order to know upfront she was about to get defrauded by DTV. The average consumer looks at the box or the online sales pitch (where I might add, it NEVER EVER references a model change!) and it says DIRECTV Plus DVR. Period.


You obviously think corporate America is out to rip you off, and no logical argument will deter you from that position. If you didn't know the HR21 didn't have OTA, that's your fault. No one was hiding it from you. It has a different model number from the HR20. Doesn't that suggest an HR21 might be different inside from the HR20?

I have some sympathy for someone who had a problem with an HR20 and had it replaced with an HR21 without their knowing of the change in capabilities.

I have no sympathy for anyone who had an opportunity to find out what features the HR21 had (or didn't have) before leasing one.

Why on earth would you think that God somehow ordained that satellite TV providers must support their competition by including OTA tuners in them?


----------



## ShiningBengal

harsh said:


> I was fully prepared to call baloney on this, but it turns out that you're right. Best Buy is obviously offering the HR21 and the specs don't mention an OTA tuner, but if you click on the Local Channels link, it does indeed mention getting OTA with a suitable antenna.


Last time I checked, Best Buy was not building DirecTV DVR's. Is it possible that just like their sales drones, Best Buy's advertising department doesn't have a clue? You issue is with Best Buy, not DirecTV!


----------



## ShiningBengal

GP245 said:


> I really wish the Adminstrator would close this down ASAP!!!!!
> 
> Yes, Direct was wrong in the way they have handled things!
> 
> Yes, Direct is finding some way to "fix" the problem!
> 
> Yes, the apologists for Direct continue their "it's not their fault" rants!
> 
> They seem to forget that without satisfied customers - Direct is out of business!
> 
> We appreciate their inside "info" they provide, but boy, what a heavy price to pay for their toadyish kowtowwing!
> 
> A new year is approaching, let's stop the rants and the inexcusable excuses and move on.
> 
> Enough already!


Thank you for the unnecessary moderation. Last time I checked, there were a number of moderators in place.

Those who do not wish to participate in this thread, or even read it, have the choice not to. I would suggest you take advantage of that feature of this forum.


----------



## GP245

ShiningBengal said:


> Thank you for the unnecessary moderation. Last time I checked, there were a number of moderators in place.
> 
> Those who do not wish to participate in this thread, or even read it, have the choice not to. I would suggest you take advantage of that feature of this forum.


At least you said "Thank you."

At minimum, very minimum, there's some civility around.

Good-bye!


----------



## ShiningBengal

GP245 said:


> At least you said "Thank you."
> 
> At minimum, very minimum, there's some civility around.
> 
> Good-bye!


The lack of civility, IMHO, is one of the few good reasons to shut down a thread. Overly moderated forums get pretty sterile.

As long as people behave themselves, it shouldn't be necessary.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Let us discontinue the discussion of moderation altogether. No one needs to reply or discuss such things in this thread. If someone feels strongly about this thread or any thread or post, please PM a moderator or report the post/thread using the report post button that appears on any post.

This thread started as a communication from DIRECTV thread, and seems to have evolved (not devolved) into place where people can rant if need be. As OP and moderator, I gots no problem with anyone who needs or wants a good rant. They can be healthy.

So Merry Christmas everyone, and have a very Happy New Year.
Tom


----------



## loudo

OK, I guess it is time to break these out again. There are two evident solutions to this.

1. Go out and purchase a HR20, while there are still some available.
2. Wait for the in the works solution.

If you still are not happy, try these.








Have a great holiday everyone.
Go Patriots


----------



## Doug Brott

I think this thread has taken a turn for the worse and feel that it's time to be put to bed. A solution is in the works and will be available at some point. Until then we all get to play the waiting game even if it is not desired.

_Some information that might be useful as well_


loudo said:


> If you are really in need of an HR20, go to one of these web sites that are selling them and order one. We all hated to see them remove the OTA tuner from the HD DVR but enough is enough.
> 
> http://www.electronicexpress.com/product?prod_id=10572&refer=6&cpc=6
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000EVHU5I?smid=ASH1H6YCFH4EF&tag=dealtime-ce-feed-20&linkCode=asn
> 
> http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Satellite-systems/DirecTV-Systems.htm
> 
> http://item.express.ebay.com/Brand-...0QQitemZ120201278429QQihZ002QQcmdZExpressItem
> 
> http://www.homepriceclub.com/item.aspx?eid=1&pid=105680


----------



## Doug Brott

After some time to think about this, the discussion will be allowed to continue. Please keep in mind that while it's OK to have differing opinions, let's try to keep things constructive.

Folks have differing points of view and differing reasons for both offering suggestions and wanting OTA .. 

Cheers and Happy Holidays ..


----------



## RandyMarlow

ShiningBengal said:


> I have some sympathy for someone who had a problem with an HR20 and had it replaced with an HR21 without their knowing of the change in capabilities.


As I mentioned earlier in this thread, this is my case. (I went from the HR10-250 to a defective HR20 with a 2-year re-up until I finally got it replaced after 3 weeks, to the HR21 now.) I was at first hurt that nobody took the time to respond to my post, but then I decided to take it that most people feel I kind of got screwed.

Does anyone have any suggestions? D* CSR's say I can't get out of my contract, and they won't take the HR21 back and give me an HR20. And right now, I'm not in the position to just eat the cost and go out and pick up an HR20 like everyone is suggesting. (Recent unexpected home repair costs....  ) Besides, since I caught this as soon as it happened, shouldn't that make a difference with D*.

Any idea of a timeline on the external tuner?


----------



## ShiningBengal

RandyMarlow said:


> As I mentioned earlier in this thread, this is my case. (I went from the HR10-250 to a defective HR20 with a 2-year re-up until I finally got it replaced after 3 weeks, to the HR21 now.) I was at first hurt that nobody took the time to respond to my post, but then I decided to take it that most people feel I kind of got screwed.
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions? D* CSR's say I can't get out of my contract, and they won't take the HR21 back and give me an HR20. And right now, I'm not in the position to just eat the cost and go out and pick up an HR20 like everyone is suggesting. (Recent unexpected home repair costs....  ) Besides, since I caught this as soon as it happened, shouldn't that make a difference with D*.
> 
> Any idea of a timeline on the external tuner?


I was in the same exact situation as you, but I refused to accept the HR21 when I had an HR20 fail. Without going into detail, I eventually had them FedEx a new (not refurbished) HR20.

I later purchased a 50" Plasma HD set for my bedroom (very large room) and bought a new HR21 at Costco at the same time since it was cheaper than buying one from DirecTV. I didn't have a way to connect to my in-attic antenna from that location, so I thought I'd try one out.

It has been completely reliable--haven't had any of the issues other folks have reported.

If you have LIL HD available from DirecTV, or soon will, that is the easiest solution. If not, DirecTV has announced they will have an OTA solution first quarter 2008 for the HR21.


----------



## harsh

ShiningBengal said:


> Last time I checked, Best Buy was not building DirecTV DVR's.


And neither is DIRECTV. DIRECTV is completely in charge of the feature set though. Knowing what they know in terms of customer needs and desires as well as the timing of their expansion (or the uncertainty of the timing), they should have waited until the final piece of the puzzle was in place.


> Is it possible that just like their sales drones, Best Buy's advertising department doesn't have a clue? You issue is with Best Buy, not DirecTV!


Absolutely. Best Buy on the whole doesn't have a clue. The bigger question is why doesn't DIRECTV make sure they understand so that from top to bottom, they aren't putting out a message that promises something that DIRECTV isn't delivering.

People didn't miss the RF modulator when that was removed from the top-line receivers. People aren't missing the ability to record a third program because it was never delivered. Why must they strip the flagship receivers down to get to the price point of the competition? It isn't like they aren't making a profit.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> Some information that might be useful as well


You might have noticed that the first two entries are both offering units through Electronics Express. If you go to their website, you'll notice that they are being offered only on a first-come first-served closeout basis to in-store customers. All of their locations are in Tennessee. Be careful to confirm that they are an authorized dealer.

eBay Express has three units left.

Sadoun should be good for them, but they can't pull them out of thin air.


----------



## harsh

ShiningBengal said:


> If not, DirecTV has announced they will have an OTA solution first quarter 2008 for the HR21.


Where did they announce this? In post 1057 of this thread, the news from a CSR was "late Spring 2008" which is more like the latter part of the second quarter.


----------



## frederic1943

This all reminds me of when Apple changed the MacIntosh. Dropping the serial, ADB, and SCSI connections for USB and Firewire. Oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Now only old-timers know what an ADB port was.


----------



## OneOfOne

ShiningBengal said:


> You obviously think corporate America is out to rip you off, and no logical argument will deter you from that position. If you didn't know the HR21 didn't have OTA, that's your fault. No one was hiding it from you. It has a different model number from the HR20. Doesn't that suggest an HR21 might be different inside from the HR20?
> 
> I have some sympathy for someone who had a problem with an HR20 and had it replaced with an HR21 without their knowing of the change in capabilities.
> 
> I have no sympathy for anyone who had an opportunity to find out what features the HR21 had (or didn't have) before leasing one.
> 
> Why on earth would you think that God somehow ordained that satellite TV providers must support their competition by including OTA tuners in them?


ok mr I am not aware of whats going on in consumer circles. lots of companies are now selling commodities in smaller packaging for the exact same price. this would be your food producers and your laundry detergent manufacturers to name 2. this would be marketing as new and improved without explanining either. all natural 'suppliments' that arent proven to do anything. except cost you money.

this is not intended for shiningbengal, rather for the original poster who is living in stepford where nothing ever goes wrong or is a lie.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> You might have noticed that the first two entries are both offering units through Electronics Express. If you go to their website, you'll notice that they are being offered only on a first-come first-served closeout basis to in-store customers. All of their locations are in Tennessee. Be careful to confirm that they are an authorized dealer.
> 
> eBay Express has three units left.
> 
> Sadoun should be good for them, but they can't pull them out of thin air.


Thank you for the update ..


----------



## Throckmorton

poppo said:


> Here is the link to the Best Buy description of the HR21 features. Please show us where it says anything about OTA.
> 
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...=product&tab=1&id=1186004963843#productdetail


These descriptions have now changed to accommodate the new model. That was not the case in October. Even D*'s own site only gave the description for the HR20, calling it the "DirecTV HD DVR".

I had no way to even KNOW there were different models of it, much less know I needed to research it.

To those of you that "knew":

When you don't know, you don't know what you don't know. You can do all the research you want, but if you don't know what the right questions are then you can only hope for the best.

In my case, I went to the supplier's web site, D*, and was told the unit I was about to buy had OTA tuners. The unit I bought did not.

You can argue it all you want but that is the fact of the matter. Accept it or don't.

On the other hand, it's no big deal to me. That I was "ripped off" is obvious, but I really don't care either. My only complaint here is the "holier than thou" attitude of those of you who think we, the deceived HR21 purchasers, don't have a gripe at all.


----------



## poppo

Throckmorton said:


> My only complaint here is the "holier than thou" attitude of those of you who think we, the deceived HR21 purchasers, don't have a gripe at all.


I don't think anyone is disputing that things could have been handled better. I had no idea when you actually purchased your unit only that it was stated that the Best Buy web site had the wrong info and it doesn't now. But it may have at some point. So I do agree that folks who got the HR21 before anyone really knew anything about them may have a reason to feel screwed. However, now it does not take much research to figure out that there are different models with different capabilities.

What I think most are disputing is that there was some sort of intentional bait and switch tactic going on. For all we know DirecTV did send the updated product info to the stores, but their Web designer folks just never got around to changing it. And perhaps DirecTV really did not think there would be such an uproar because they are providing HD locals to just about everyone.


----------



## JBernardK

Manager says, "Let's save money by removing the OTA capability. We'll make $30 extra per unit."

Pion says, "But we will have to redo out inventory system, train our CSRs and inform all the installers. Won't that cost money?"

Joe corporate says, "Hey I have an idea. Let's not tell anyone. No one will really notice anyway. And if they do, we have their $299 and we'll stick them with another $480 if they want to get out of the deal."

Manager says, "Brilliant idea Joe. Give that man a raise and a promotion."

Joe says, "And I'll get all my internet buddies to go out on the forums and if anyone comaplains, tell them they don't really need it anyway."


----------



## Drew2k

Throckmorton said:


> When you don't know, you don't know what you don't know.


Donald? Mr. Rumsfeld? Is that you?!

:lol: Sorry - couldn't resist! 

:backtotop


----------



## arob

loudo said:


> OK, I guess it is time to break these out again. There are two evident solutions to this.
> 
> 1. Go out and purchase a HR20, while there are still some available.
> 2. Wait for the in the works solution.
> 
> If you still are not happy, try these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a great holiday everyone.
> Go Patriots


This is not true. You do have options..

Our forum brother (Racetrek) recommended using the email route with Directv. It appears this gets quickly to escalation. It worked for him to get the HR20 and another forum member (HeTz) did this as well and got his HR20.

I sent an email from the D* website last Tuesday and voila I got my response yesterday from someone that said they would contact the warehouse directly and get me the two HR20's I need. It was a very apologetic response from a person that sounds like they know what their doing. My expectations were set by letting me know there would be a delay due to the holiday but that I would get them.

Of course until they are in hand I will remain skeptical but I do see light at the end of the tunnel now.

You can also call in and ask for your case to be escalated and they will promptly take your info and push it up the chain.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Throckmorton said:


> These descriptions have now changed to accommodate the new model. That was not the case in October. Even D*'s own site only gave the description for the HR20, calling it the "DirecTV HD DVR".
> 
> I had no way to even KNOW there were different models of it, much less know I needed to research it.
> 
> To those of you that "knew":
> 
> When you don't know, you don't know what you don't know. You can do all the research you want, but if you don't know what the right questions are then you can only hope for the best.
> 
> In my case, I went to the supplier's web site, D*, and was told the unit I was about to buy had OTA tuners. The unit I bought did not.
> 
> You can argue it all you want but that is the fact of the matter. Accept it or don't.
> 
> On the other hand, it's no big deal to me. That I was "ripped off" is obvious, but I really don't care either. My only complaint here is the "holier than thou" attitude of those of you who think we, the deceived HR21 purchasers, don't have a gripe at all.


Are you saying DirecTV's website indicated that the HR21 had OTA tuners and it did not? Or are you saying you ordered an HR20 and received an HR21?

If the website misled you, then you certainly have an issue with DirecTV and should demand that they replace the HR21 you received with the HR20, which is what you ordered. On the other hand, if you merely assumed the HR21 would have OTA tuners because the HR20 did, then you have no issue.

I honestly cannot say I monitored DirecTV's website on a daily basis, and that it never indicated that the HR21 had OTA tuners. I will say that I checked it many times and at those times it was clear that it did not state that the HR21 had them.

"Ripped off" is a curious phrase left over from the 60's. Like so much of '60's jargon, its meaning is ambiguous. Why not be a little more precise and say what actually happened? Were you defrauded by DirecTV? Then say so and say precisely why. It isn't obvious from what you say that you were "ripped off." It is obvious that you think you were. There is a difference.

If the website didn't say the HR21 had OTA tuners, it is a safe assumption that it was not so equipped. If you assumed that it had them because the HR20 did, then I think you have to lay at least part of the blame on yourself.

When was the last time you heard any advertiser advertise which features a particular product they offered lacked? Do you expect a car manufacturer to advertuse that a particular model lacked AWD, or anti-lock brakes? Would you feel "ripped off" because you bought such a model assuming that it did and later discovered it did not?

I have kicked myself the few times I made a purchase without doing my homework and later regretted the fact. That is not the same thing as being defrauded. In the few instances where I actually was defrauded, the amounts were too small to get upset about. If they were, that's what lawyers are for. That stated, I have never felt the need to engage one for that purpose.

This whole "bait and switch" argument is bogus, IMHO. Furthermore, it suggests a complete misunderstanding of the term.

"Bait and switch" is a deceptive tactic whereby a consumer is lured into an establishment to buy an advertised "bargain," and later being convinced by the seller that the item advertised is a POS and that he should buy a much higher priced item instead. (The fact that it takes a moron to be so deceived doesn't alter the fact that it is at the least disingenous. A consumer always has the right to say "no.")

I don't at all doubt that some folks purchased the HR21 believing that it had exactly the same feature set that the HR20 had.

That isn't the fault of DirecTV.

The argument that a later model should invariably have at least the same features as a predecessor model is not borne out by history. Happens all the time. Sometimes it is a cost saving requirement, or that the market simply wasn't interested in paying for features that the market didn't want.

There are people who are unhappy stating that they are unable to purchase an HR20, when in fact even now, if you look hard enough, you CAN find one. But even if that were true, it doesn't indicate malfeasance on DirecTV's part. They are certainly entitled to discontinue any model they make at any time and for any reason or no reason at all. As long as they fulfill their contractual obligation to those who bought a discontinued model, they have broken no law and have "ripped no one off."


----------



## harsh

frederic1943 said:


> Now only old-timers know what an ADB port was.


I'm officially old. I know what Apple Desktop Bus is.


----------



## loudo

If you look at the history of DirecTV, they quite often have dropped features from their receivers when they come out with a newer one. 

I remember when they went from the HTL-HD unit to the HR10. We lost several real good features that the HTL-HD had, that the HR10 didn't. Since then I always look at the features of a unit before purchasing one. One big issue was the fact we lost the OTA analog tuner. At the time that was a big issue, as the loss of the OTA tuner is now. But today it is a forgottten issue.


----------



## vankai

JBernardK said:


> Joe says, "And I'll get all my internet buddies to go out on the forums and if anyone comaplains, tell them they don't really need it anyway."


There is unequivocally nothing wrong with a good forummercial........


----------



## ShiningBengal

JBernardK said:


> Manager says, "Let's save money by removing the OTA capability. We'll make $30 extra per unit."
> 
> Pion says, "But we will have to redo out inventory system, train our CSRs and inform all the installers. Won't that cost money?"
> 
> Joe corporate says, "Hey I have an idea. Let's not tell anyone. No one will really notice anyway. And if they do, we have their $299 and we'll stick them with another $480 if they want to get out of the deal."
> 
> Manager says, "Brilliant idea Joe. Give that man a raise and a promotion."
> 
> Joe says, "And I'll get all my internet buddies to go out on the forums and if anyone comaplains, tell them they don't really need it anyway."


Perhaps the manager said, "We are losing too much on each unit we produce. Things have changed since we included the OTA feature at no additional charge two years ago when we didn't have LIL HD available. We have a model that has OTA capabilities for those few who need it. We have an obligation to our employees and our shareholders to make a profit. We owe it to our customers to be financially secure. We should introduce a new model that recognizes that we are providing, at a cost in the billions of dollars, LIL HD from our satellites. The new model will not require OTA tuners. By offering two models, we will cut our losses from putting OTA capability into all receivers, when only a few need it."

You have a very warped view of the way business operates in the real world. Would you prefer that the Government provide satellite service? DirecTV has competitors. There is Dish, there is cable, there is FioS, and there is OTA. Probably more in the future. Thats the nature of evil corporations. They provide choice. Hint: The Soviet Union had no corporations. If you don't like the single washing machine they offered or the price charged for it, or the length of time you had to wait to get it, tough!

If you don't like DirecTV, you can change providers in a heartbeat. You may have to wait until your contract is fulfilled, but that's the way our evil capitalist free market economy works.

Just who are "internet buddies?" Who is "Joe Corporate?" If you create straw men, you should be a little more specific about who they represent.

Do you really believe that little scenario you wrote? 

By the way, it's "peon" if you mean, unskilled worker.


----------



## billsharpe

ShiningBengal said:


> If you don't like DirecTV, you can change providers in a heartbeat. You may have to wait until your contract is fulfilled, but that's the way our evil capitalist free market economy works.


Of course this is a pretty expensive change. And my heart will beat a lot from the time DirecTV is turned off and something else is turned on...


----------



## Herdfan

After 13+ years with D*, I have seen too many times the disconnect between Management, Producttion and Marketing and that is all this is. Nobody is out to screw anybody over, it is just separate departments of a large corporation doing their specific job without a complete understanding of what other departments are doing or need.

If the OTA solution is as close as they say, and I do beleive it is, then it was in the works long before the debut of the HR21. So all that has happened is that management forced production to get the HR21 out the door before the R&D had the OTA solution in place. Soon marketing is screaming about lost customers, although I do think it is few, and it was too late for logistics to be able to specify which receiver went out to each customer. By the time they could get that figured out, the "solution" would be available.

This is no different that what happens in other large corporations every day.

But what DirecTV needs is a higher level customer resolution department similar to what Verizon had in their Presidential Appeals (now Chronic Troubles) department. Retention is not the proper place to get things fixed even though they can.

But I would like to make an appeal to those who think OTA is unimportant or who want customers to exercise patience regarding the solution, there are many of us who do rely on OTA for some of our HD viewing and RECORDING, so it is important to us. So I am sure you won't want us to tell you that something you value is not important or you can "Wait a few months" if you lose it.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Herdfan said:


> After 13+ years with D*, I have seen too many times the disconnect between Management, Producttion and Marketing and that is all this is. Nobody is out to screw anybody over, it is just separate departments of a large corporation doing their specific job without a complete understanding of what other departments are doing or need.
> 
> If the OTA solution is as close as they say, and I do beleive it is, then it was in the works long before the debut of the HR21. So all that has happened is that management forced production to get the HR21 out the door before the R&D had the OTA solution in place. Soon marketing is screaming about lost customers, although I do think it is few, and it was too late for logistics to be able to specify which receiver went out to each customer. By the time they could get that figured out, the "solution" would be available.
> 
> This is no different that what happens in other large corporations every day.
> 
> But what DirecTV needs is a higher level customer resolution department similar to what Verizon had in their Presidential Appeals (now Chronic Troubles) department. Retention is not the proper place to get things fixed even though they can.
> 
> But I would like to make an appeal to those who think OTA is unimportant or who want customers to exercise patience regarding the solution, there are many of us who do rely on OTA for some of our HD viewing and RECORDING, so it is important to us. So I am sure you won't want us to tell you that something you value is not important or you can "Wait a few months" if you lose it.


I agree with what you suggest is a plausible explanation of the HR20-> HR21 migration. And I certainly won't suggest that what is important to some should not be important to them.

DirecTV has not handled the migration from the HR20 to the HR21 very well. There is no question that mistakes were made, particularly in both intra and extra corporate communication channels.

However, that is a far cry from suggesting some nefarious grand plan to screw their customers.

I believe they are acting responsibly by (apparently) moving rapidly to provide an OTA solution for those who have HR21's and desire that capability. However, it does take time to accomplish that without causing even more problems in the process.

What would you suggest DirecTV do? They cannot instantly "fix" the problem, regardless of how important the loss of OTA may be to some customers.

I went for years without having analog OTA capability with the original DirecTiVo's. The resolution was to launch, at great expense, a number of satellites to provide LIL capability to 90% of their subscribers.

Patience is a virtue, not because it provides refuge for wrong doers, but because it makes life much more pleasant.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I do not understand why someone would suspect that this was part of a plan to screw customers. If anything it was a decision to manage costs, perhaps by temporarily eliminating a capability that they felt wasn't used by enough people.


----------



## RAD

OK, so is there an official way for a new customer to make sure they get a HR20 yet? I ask since a fellow Austinite over in AVS was looking to switch from TWC. Since LIN's holding NBC and CW stations hostage from D* we need ATSC and I'd like to be able to tell him what he would need to do to make sure he got an HR20 vs seeing what shows up and cancelling installs until they do.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RAD said:


> OK, so is there an official way for a new customer to make sure they get a HR20 yet? I ask since a fellow Austinite over in AVS was looking to switch from TWC. Since LIN's holding NBC and CW stations hostage from D* we need ATSC and I'd like to be able to tell him what he would need to do to make sure he got an HR20 vs seeing what shows up and cancelling installs until they do.


No.

Any NEW installation, will get what ever is available.

The only specific steps being done today, are to ensure those that are replacing an HR20 for some reason.... get an HR20.

Other then that... the only way to guarantee an HR20 is to purchase through a retailers.

As for ATSC... as noted multiple times in this thread... DirecTV will have a solution..


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> DirecTV has not handled the migration from the HR20 to the HR21 very well. There is no question that mistakes were made, particularly in both intra and extra corporate communication channels.
> 
> ....
> 
> I believe they are acting responsibly by (apparently) moving rapidly to provide an OTA solution for those who have HR21's and desire that capability. However, it does take time to accomplish that without causing even more problems in the process.


Given that I think on the bigger scale... the HR21 vs HR20 and the ATSC aspects, is not a big as most people think it is... from an entire customer population... Some things may have been handled better in communication... but not sure how much of a difference it would have led too.

As for the "OTA Solution"... given that the solution was planned for... before the HR21 was released.. (it is not in "reaction" to the outcry in the forums for the ATSC)....

The HR21 was simply ready to go to market, and serve it's intended purpose when it was released... while the ATSC solution still needed more time.

They have rolled the dice... and opted to serve all those customers that have ZERO intrest in ATSC channels... instead of making them wait, due to back logs on the HR20 series, which were costing DirecTV more money to make.

Make no mistake... the drop of ATSC tuners from the HR21 was to reduce the price of manufacturing.
There is no one denying that, or sugar coating that.

They are very much aware that there is a population that wants ATSC... and they have been building (and had planned for), the ATSC solution.... It is just taking time to get all the ducks in a row... and getting it completed.


----------



## RAD

Earl Bonovich said:


> No.
> 
> Any NEW installation, will get what ever is available.
> 
> The only specific steps being done today, are to ensure those that are replacing an HR20 for some reason.... get an HR20.
> 
> Other then that... the only way to guarantee an HR20 is to purchase through a retailers.
> 
> As for ATSC... as noted multiple times in this thread... DirecTV will have a solution..


Earl, thanks for the summary. But frankly I can't recommend DirecTV to someone in Austin currently until either D* and LIN come to retransmission agreement and they're available via HD LIL or a procedure is in place to make sure new installs can get a HR20 (or the HR21 with the coming ATSC solution). If the details on when/what/how much were available it might be different but too many unknowns currently to make a recommendation. Sorry, just the way I see it.


----------



## ShiningBengal

harsh said:


> Where did they announce this? In post 1057 of this thread, the news from a CSR was "late Spring 2008" which is more like the latter part of the second quarter.


In another DBS forum an internal document was copied to the moderator:

"HR21-ATSC SOLUTION Supply Chain and Engineering are working on an ATSC solution for the HR21. *The solution will be external to the unit (not integrated) and is on target to be available in early 2008.* Your voices have been heard and we will keep you posted on next steps and timing. Please contact your Director or Regional Vice President if you have any comments or concerns."

I think that is at least as reliable as what some CSR has stated.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Stuart Sweet said:


> I do not understand why someone would suspect that this was part of a plan to screw customers. If anything it was a decision to manage costs, perhaps by temporarily eliminating a capability that they felt wasn't used by enough people.


Not surprising. Rosie O'Donnell thinks George Bush blew up the World Trade Center. It is a common belief in our society that profit is a dirty word, and that corporations are universally evil.


----------



## Throckmorton

ShiningBengal said:


> Are you saying DirecTV's website indicated that the HR21 had OTA tuners and it did not? Or are you saying you ordered an HR20 and received an HR21?


I am saying neither.

I am saying that DirecTV's web site, and that of BB and CC all said the "DirecTV HD DVR" had an OTA tuner. And I went to Best Buy and bought a "DirectTV HD DVR" and when I got it home it did NOT have an OTA tuner.

YOU are inserting HR20 and HR21 into my comments and making assumptions. From my perspective at the time there _weren't_ different models to choose from. There was only the "DirectTV HD DVR".


----------



## ShiningBengal

Throckmorton said:


> I am saying neither.
> 
> I am saying that DirecTV's web site, and that of BB and CC all said the "DirecTV HD DVR" had an OTA tuner. And I went to Best Buy and bought a "DirectTV HD DVR" and when I got it home it did NOT have an OTA tuner.
> 
> YOU are inserting HR20 and HR21 into my comments and making assumptions. From my perspective at the time there _weren't_ different models to choose from. There was only the "DirectTV HD DVR".


I was merely trying to discover what actually happened: i.e., how did you come to the conclusion that the DVR you bought had OTA tuners?

You say that you bought your HR21 at Best Buy after being informed by the Best Buy web site that it had OTA tuners, and upon bringing it home, you discovered it did not.

Why then did you not make a copy of the Best Buy website with the erronous information on it and return the unit to Best Buy along with the print out of this information and get a refund of your purchase price? Your purchase decision was based on Best Buy's false and misleading information (not DirecTV's) and therefore it was Best Buy's obligation to make it right.

It would have been immaterial what DirecTV's and Circuit City's ads contained. Your relied on false information from Best Buy, and they had an obligation to to correct their error by refunding your purchase price.

If you let them get away with it, shame on you. You had the goods on them.


----------



## Throckmorton

Did you even read what I wrote? If so, they why do you mis-quiote me so? Or do you just not understand what I said?

I relied on what DirecTV's web site said, which was the same as everyone else's.

Best Buy and Circuit City don't offer different products. They are additional outlets for the same product.

But I can tell by your attitude and style that you are closed minded on this.

Please consider our exchange completed.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Throckmorton said:


> Did you even read what I wrote? If so, they why do you mis-quiote me so? Or do you just not understand what I said?
> 
> I relied on what DirecTV's web site said, which was the same as everyone else's.
> 
> Best Buy and Circuit City don't offer different products. They are additional outlets for the same product.
> 
> But I can tell by your attitude and style that you are closed minded on this.
> 
> Please consider our exchange completed.


That's a cop out.

How is it possible to buy anything, based on an ad containing false information (you claim that Best Buy's ad said that the DirecTV DVR had OTA) without having recourse against the advertiser and seller?

You said that EVERYONE's ads claimed the same thing, i.e., the DirecTV HD DVR had OTA. (Must have been a grand conspiracy to defraud you of your money.)

Let me state this as simply as I can: You claim to have purchased an HR21 from Best Buy. You claim that Best Buy's ad stated that the HR21 in question had OTA capability. The implication of that statement is that you based your purchasing decision on the assertion that Best Buy stated in their ad, or website, that this product had OTA capability.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO ELSE ADVERTISED THE SAME THING! If Best Buy falsely claimed the HR21 had OTA, then you absolutely have the right to return it!

If you based your decision to buy an HR21 from Best Buy based on someone else's ad (DirecTV's, CC's, Costco's, or anyone else's) that is a different matter. However, that is NOT what you said.

I do understand you didn't know there were two models available, but if the ad didn't make that clear, you STILL have the right to return the unit. Why? Because the ad would have been misleading! It the ad claimed the unit they had for sale had OTA it makes no difference whether they identified a particular model.

My "attitude" is that I strive for clarity, while you seem to think it doesn't matter. That may have something to do with the fact that you find yourself a "victim" in this situation when based on what you have written, there was no need for you to be one.

You have the option to reply or not, but if you do, please address the apparent holes in your argument. And please stick to the facts and not to what you perceive my attitude to be.


----------



## Throckmorton

ShiningBengal said:


> You have the option to reply or not, but if you do, please address the apparent holes in your argument. And please stick to the facts and not to what you perceive my attitude to be.


There are no holes in my argument. I am not making an argument. I have simply stated the facts of my situation clearly and concisely. You continue to misinterpret what I have said and to mis-quote me.

Have a Merry Christmas.


----------



## Doug Brott




----------



## ShiningBengal

Throckmorton said:


> There are no holes in my argument. I am not making an argument. I have simply stated the facts of my situation clearly and concisely. You continue to misinterpret what I have said and to mis-quote me.
> 
> Have a Merry Christmas.


It would be nice if you pointed out the specifics of my misquotes (I didn't quote you, by the way, so how could I misquote you?)

You are making an argument in your previous posts:

Argument:

"a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true; "it was a strong argument that his hypothesis was true"

Look. You made an error in purchasing an HR21. You may feel that others are responsible for that error, but I have a carton in front of me that contained the HR21 I purchased from Costco. There is a list of features on the carton. I also have the carton for one of the HR20's that I received from DirecTV. It also has a list of features.

The last feature from the list of seven features ("EQUIPMENT FEATURES") on the HR20 carton says:

"Access to HD, standard definition and local HD DirecTV programming, as well as off-air digital (ATSC) broadcasts where available."

The same statement, minus the language I underlined above, appears on the carton for the HR21. Nowhere on the carton is there any language indicating the existance of OTA capability.

If you could not take one minute of your time to read the label on the carton, that's on you. You may disagree, but for crying out loud, when the language on the carton makes no mention whatever of OTA capability, why on earth would you at least not ask the question of the store clerk, after pointing out this fact?

Perhaps it is an excusable error on your part, but it was your error, and you have only yourself to blame.

And lastly, to put things in a proper frame, allow me to everyone a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

And always, let's try to keep things in perspective and always keep in mind, "it's only TV!"


----------



## poppo

Throckmorton said:


> There are no holes in my argument. I am not making an argument. I have simply stated the facts of my situation clearly and concisely. You continue to misinterpret what I have said and to mis-quote me.


I have to agree with the others that you are skirting the issues. First, the ads for the specific models do say that they either have OTA (for the HR20) and do not for the HR21. If you just bought the wrong model because you didn't check the specs, that is your fault. Now, if there was a separate ' banner ad' that was just the generic DirecTV stuff that said the DirecTV DVRs have OTA, then you still had at least half a leg to stand on, and could have returned the unit claiming you were unaware there were different models. So I still don't understand just what your gripe actually is, other than they no longer had the model you really wanted.


----------



## ShiningBengal

poppo said:


> I have to agree with the others that you are skirting the issues. First, the ads for the specific models do say that they either have OTA (for the HR20) and do not for the HR21. If you just bought the wrong model because you didn't check the specs, that is your fault. Now, if there was a separate ' banner ad' that was just the generic DirecTV stuff that said the DirecTV DVRs have OTA, then you still had at least half a leg to stand on, and could have returned the unit claiming you were unaware there were different models. So I still don't understand just what your gripe actually is, other than they no longer had the model you really wanted.


You stated my position much more succinctly than I. I, likewise don't understand what he is upset about. I have never ever had a problem returning merchandise to Best Buy (within their written policy regarding returns that is printed on their receipts.)

I may be mistaken, but I think as long as you have all the original packaging, etc., for the product being returned, within the time frame allowed, it shouldn't ever be a problem.

I purchased my HR21 from Costco. (I knew it didn't have OTA and I chose it over the HR20 which was also available because I liked the black enameled case! ).

Not an ad for Costco, but you can return nearly anything you buy from Costco within 90 days for a full refund, regardless of the reason. I'm still within the 90 days and I really like the HR21. No plans to return it.

Have had no issues with it whatever. Lack of OTA is no probem, since I can't access my OTA antenna in the attic and I don't want rabbit ears or the equivalent in my bedroom.


----------



## Throckmorton

As stated in my first post on the subject, I don't have a gripe. The lack of OTA isn't that big a deal to me. It would have been convenient but nothing more. And at the time, I wasn't willing to give up what I perceived was 20 additional hours of recording time to have the OTA tuner.

But for what it's worth, I was told by a CC rep, BB rep, D* rep and the D* installer that the "DirecTV HD DVR" I was purchasing had OTA.

I did the research. Back in mid-October, the information wasn't very forthcoming. Did I make a mistake? Sure.  Is it that big a deal? No.

Again, I CHOSE to keep the unit I had because of incorrect information about the recording time. When I was in CC, the salseman there CALLED D* to inquire about the 30 hours vs. 50 hours issue and it was on his advice that I went looking for the other unit at BB.

So, if I ask the clerks AND D*, and visit all the sites (D* included) and am STILL given bad information, how is that my fault?

At the time, I didn't know this place existed. I wish I had.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Throckmorton said:


> As stated in my first post on the subject, I don't have a gripe. The lack of OTA isn't that big a deal to me. It would have been convenient but nothing more. And at the time, I wasn't willing to give up what I perceived was 20 additional hours of recording time to have the OTA tuner.
> 
> But for what it's worth, I was told by a CC rep, BB rep, D* rep and the D* installer that the "DirecTV HD DVR" I was purchasing had OTA.
> 
> I did the research. Back in mid-October, the information wasn't very forthcoming. Did I make a mistake? Sure. Is it that big a deal? No.
> 
> Again, I CHOSE to keep the unit I had because of incorrect information about the recording time. When I was in CC, the salseman there CALLED D* to inquire about the 30 hours vs. 50 hours issue and it was on his advice that I went looking for the other unit at BB.
> 
> So, if I ask the clerks AND D*, and visit all the sites (D* included) and am STILL given bad information, how is that my fault?
> 
> At the time, I didn't know this place existed. I wish I had.


It isn't your fault you were given bad information. However, if you have ANY information about what BB sales drones know and more importantly, DON'T know, you would never ask them anything. They are clueless. Ditto DirecTV CSR's.

The one thing that you could have done (and for the life of me I don't know why you wouldn't) would have been merely to read the label on the box. That is the one source of information that would have necessarily been correct. The features are clearly listed as I stated in my earlier post.

The new information you provide now is that it wasn't a big deal to you, and therefore you didn't return the product as you surely could have.

So, my question is, where's the beef?

The question aside, you should have your OTA capability within a short time frame. DirecTV has said that there WILL be an OTA solution available for the HR21 very soon.

Since it isn't a big deal to you, won't that address your issues about the lack of OTA on your DirecTV HD DVR?


----------



## harsh

ShiningBengal said:


> The one thing that you could have done (and for the life of me I don't know why you wouldn't) would have been merely to read the label on the box. That is the one source of information that would have necessarily been correct. The features are clearly listed as I stated in my earlier post.


What features of the receiver are listed on the box? The boxes I've seen have been remarkably absent any sort of definitive information save the bar code which makes no mention of additional nor "missing" features. They use the same box regardless of what model so it is logically assumed from the lack of checkboxes or other detailed information that they are all functionally identical.

How much research and running around doing returns and battling for in-store credits do you expect that Joe Sixpack should have to endure?

The facts as I see them are these:

Some models have an Ethernet pass-through and some do not.

Some models have/had coaxial digital audio outputs and some do not.

Some models have two OTA tuners and some do not.

Some have access to software and features that others lack.

Some come with HDMI cables and others do not.

Some come with RF remotes and others do not.

Lo and behold, with all of the variations, they all come in the same box.

Is the prospective purchaser supposed to carry around the equivalent of a VIN code sheet to be able to know with certainty what they will be getting? Does DIRECTV provide such a secret decoder ring?


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> Is the prospective purchaser supposed to carry around the equivalent of a VIN code sheet to be able to know with certainty what they will be getting? Does DIRECTV provide such a secret decoder ring?


That's not such a bad idea  .. It is a tough market to navigate at the moment. Hopefully that will change soon and it won't be nearly as troublesome.


----------



## Drew2k

harsh said:


> What features of the receiver are listed on the box? The boxes I've seen have been remarkably absent any sort of definitive information save the bar code which makes no mention of additional nor "missing" features. They use the same box regardless of what model so it is logically assumed from the lack of checkboxes or other detailed information that they are all functionally identical.


That's not correct. The HR21 box now has multiple photos, with each end of the box showing a photo of the HR21 from that respective side. The HR21 box also lists the features.


----------



## ShiningBengal

harsh said:


> What features of the receiver are listed on the box? The boxes I've seen have been remarkably absent any sort of definitive information save the bar code which makes no mention of additional nor "missing" features. They use the same box regardless of what model so it is logically assumed from the lack of checkboxes or other detailed information that they are all functionally identical.
> 
> How much research and running around doing returns and battling for in-store credits do you expect that Joe Sixpack should have to endure?
> 
> The facts as I see them are these:
> 
> Some models have an Ethernet pass-through and some do not.
> 
> Some models have/had coaxial digital audio outputs and some do not.
> 
> Some models have two OTA tuners and some do not.
> 
> Some have access to software and features that others lack.
> 
> Some come with HDMI cables and others do not.
> 
> Some come with RF remotes and others do not.
> 
> Lo and behold, with all of the variations, they all come in the same box.
> 
> Is the prospective purchaser supposed to carry around the equivalent of a VIN code sheet to be able to know with certainty what they will be getting? Does DIRECTV provide such a secret decoder ring?


It doesn't tell you what color it is either. It does tell you whether or not the receiver in the box has OTA tuners.

If I were interested in a particular feature and it wasn't listed on the box, I think there are ways short of opening the carton. Hint: Google

The features that the manufacturer thinks are going to be most important to a prospective buyer will be listed on the box. It cannot possibly list every design feature. How about the operating system? It isn't listed because very, very few people care. Likewise, I'm not reading anywhere that people are getting upset about whether or not a $6 HDMI cable is included. And Joe Sixpack doesn't even know what a digital coaxial REC output is.

Get real.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> It doesn't tell you what color it is either.


Actually, the photos on the HR21 box clearly reveal the color: black.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> Actually, the photos on the HR21 box clearly reveal the color: black.


Perhaps some folks feel a secret decoder ring should come with each box to determine the model number (since the clearly-marked *HR21* model number on the label and listed color of *black* isn't enough)...


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> Actually, the photos on the HR21 box clearly reveal the color: black.


It may show a black HR21 on the package. However, I have seen many situations where the illustration of the product a package supposedly contained is one color, and the contents were another.

For instance, early HR20's were available (in limited quantity) in black as well, but the cartons illustrated only silver. The complete catalog number still has either an "S" or a "B" at the end to give you that information.

That said, I think all of this is pretty much a red herring. Reading the feature list on carton of the HR21 would have at least prompted the question of whether it had OTA capability. No such statement is on the carton. While that fact doesn't guaranty that it has no such capability, the lack of such a statment should prompt at the very least, some very big doubts about whether it does.

Likewise, OTA capability IS listed on the carton of the HR20, pretty much guarantying that it does have that feature.


----------



## Throckmorton

I did read the box.

I noticed it didn't state OTA.

I asked if it did, indeed, have OTA and was assured by the clerks, D*'s web site and even the installer that it did.

First you gripe because you think I didn't do the research, then you gripe because I believed the answers I got when I did.

There is nothing I could say that would satisfy you.

And that's my real complaint. People who will simply not accept the fact that the options and choices were not clear to the average consumer. I don't think D* was being fraudulent, but they were certainly not forthcoming either.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Throckmorton said:


> I did read the box.
> 
> I noticed it didn't state OTA.
> 
> I asked if it did, indeed, have OTA and was assured by the clerks, D*'s web site and even the installer that it did.
> 
> First you gripe because you think I didn't do the research, then you gripe because I believed the answers I got when I did.
> 
> There is nothing I could say that would satisfy you.
> 
> And that's my real complaint. People who will simply not accept the fact that the options and choices were not clear to the average consumer. I don't think D* was being fraudulent, but they were certainly not forthcoming, either.


I don't believe I griped about anything. With all due respect, all the griping in our interchange in this thread has been done by you.

All I did was to ask you to clarify your position. Every time you clarify it, you add new information. Now the installers are involved in the deception. Now you say you saw the carton and that you noticed that it didn't indicate that it OTA capability. (Why would you do that when you have stated from the outset that your presumption all along was that there was only one model of HD-DVR from DirecTV and that it had OTA?) You evidently didn't challenge the sales drone on the apparent contradiction between what he was saying and what the carton was listing.

It is hard to believe your story since it keeps changing.

You believed that the product you purchased had OTA capability even though you had noticed that there was no information on the packaging that this was the case? Excuse me, but this makes no sense at all.

I think that most consumers who were about to plunk down $300 on an HD-DVR with no indication on the box that it had a feature he wanted/needed would have been to ask something like, "Let's open the box to make sure. I don't want to have to return this if you are wrong about OTA."

It is incomprehensible to me that you would not have done so.

But then, I wasn't there, was I?


----------



## houskamp

ShiningBengal said:


> I think that most consumers who were about to plunk down $300 on an HD-DVR with no indication on the box that it had a feature he wanted/needed would have been to ask something like, "Let's open the box to make sure. I don't want to have to return this if you are wrong about OTA."
> 
> It is incomprehensible to me that you would not have done so.
> 
> But then, I wasn't there, was I?


And where does the coustomers resposibility end? When I place an order I expect to get what I order.. I wouldn't be surprized to see a lot of orders are placed by the man of the house and the wife is the one who is home at time of install..


----------



## ShiningBengal

houskamp said:


> And where does the coustomers resposibility end? When I place an order I expect to get what I order.. I wouldn't be surprized to see a lot of orders are placed by the man of the house and the wife is the one who is home at time of install..


If a customer doesn't want to be disappointed, he/she must be an informed consumer. That responsibility never ends.

That stated, I wasn't making any "global" statement about consumer responsibility. I was merely trying to find out why this particular consumer was disappointed. It seems to me that he had all the tools to make a good decision, but failed to do so.
He now says he looked at the box (that's a good thing for a consumer to do) and found that the box made no mention of OTA. This is the first time he mentioned this little detail. Then he asked the sales drone about the apparent contradiction between what the box said and what the drone said (also a good thing to do).

The drone said (or so we are told) that the item in the box did indeed have OTA capability even though this major feature was missing from the feature list on the box.

He trusted the drone (bad thing for a consumer to do in this situation) when all he needed to do was to have the drone open the box and look for an antenna input.

How hard is that?


----------



## loudo

houskamp said:


> And where does the coustomers resposibility end? When I place an order I expect to get what I order.. I wouldn't be surprized to see a lot of orders are placed by the man of the house and the wife is the one who is home at time of install..


But, if I am buying any product, I am going to check what features it has, before I buy it. If I buy a car I am not going to assume it has a radio or cruise control. I am going to check out the features before I buy it to make sure it has them. I can't assume that because the last Ford pickup truck I bought had automatic windows, that the next one will.


----------



## houskamp

loudo said:


> But, if I am buying any product, I am going to check what features it has, before I buy it. If I buy a car I am not going to assume it has a radio or cruise control. I am going to check out the features before I buy it to make sure it has them. I can't assume that because the last Ford pickup truck I bought had automatic windows, that the next one will.


But if the salesman for your truck fills out the invoice and tells you it has automatic windows and then they deliver one without?


----------



## ShiningBengal

houskamp said:


> But if the salesman for your truck fills out the invoice and tells you it has automatic windows and then they deliver one without?


You are going to buy a truck without ever looking at it?????? 

If you are ordering a truck from the factory, for instance, the automatic windows (if it is an option) will be listed. If it is not, then the list of standard equipment that is posted on the window of every new car will clearly state whether or not automatic windows are included.

"A foole and his money be soone at debate: which after with sorow repents him too late." _-Thomas Tusser, ca 1500_


----------



## houskamp

ShiningBengal said:


> You are going to buy a truck without ever looking at it??????
> 
> If you are ordering a truck from the factory, for instance, the automatic windows (if it is an option) will be listed. If it is not, then the list of standard equipment that is posted on the window of every new car will clearly state whether or not automatic windows are included.
> 
> "A foole and his money be soone at debate: which after with sorow repents him too late." _-Thomas Tusser, ca 1500_


obiously didn't read what I said... how many times are you supposed to send back that ordered truck till they ship what you ordered?


----------



## loudo

houskamp said:


> But if the salesman for your truck fills out the invoice and tells you it has automatic windows and then they deliver one without?


If it is in writing they will have to make good for it. I have learned from past experience when ever you buy anything from those big box electronics stores, you better do your homework ahead of time and not pay much attention to what the sales people tell you. Many times I have purchased items from them and educated them on the product they were selling. Like when I bought me HR20, last month. The sales people had no idea why I wanted the HR20 instead of the HR21. None of them had a clue that the HR21 had no OTA tuner, but thanked me for explaining the difference to them.


----------



## Throckmorton

Everything I read, everywhere, and everyone I talked to said the unit I was buying had OTA. I HAD NO REASON TO CHECK FURTHER. There was never anything to indicate there were units WITHOUT OTA.

And it was never that big a deal to me in the first place. It did NOT influence my buying decision one way or the other. It was merely an after-thought that led to my disappointment after the fact. Do you GET THAT?

And STOP misquoting me. Or is your reading comprehension really that bad?

I told you up front that D* and the installer (among others) all said my unit had OTA. The installer sat there for a while trying to figure out how to hook it up, and finally gave up saying I'd have to call D*.

You nit-pick the words I use while avoiding the real issue. That being:

As a reasonably informed and intelligent consumer, who did my research, I was disappointed that the product I ended up with was different that I was expecting it to be based on the information available about it.

Are you a lawyer, or a politician by chance?

I hope you realize that your ignorance and pig-headedness aren't making me feel too much better about this whole D* issue. It was minor, but now you are making me feel like it was a far bigger deal than it was.


----------



## Herdfan

ShiningBengal said:


> You are going to buy a truck without ever looking at it??????


Sure. As long as I have a copy of the window sticker. Plus Lariat's come with power windows standard.


----------



## Herdfan

Throckmorton said:


> I hope you realize that your ignorance and pig-headedness


And I hope YOU realize that name-calling such as this is going to get this thread closed again.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Just like I did with the DLB thread.

This topic:
"TIME-OUT" till Friday: 01/04/2008 ~ 10pm CST

We need a cool down period... so we can come back and discuss this rationally. And who knows... maybe at that time, I will have some new concreate information for you all.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Thread re-opened. Please remember the moderator warnings. Civil, rational, solution focused. 

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Perhaps it would be wise to relax and sit back to see just what the solution will be first, and then figure out the implications, if any.

The OTA solution will most likely go through a beta field test first anyway, before being generally available.


----------



## loudo

They might announce something on it at CES, next week.


----------



## Drew2k

It's been pointed out that the information on the carton is lacking, so I just want to post the following pictures in regards to that point.

As I stated earlier, the HR21 carton now shows a picture on each face of the box, showing the HR21 from that side of the box. 

The back panel is clearly visible, and clearly shows no OTA input. DIRECTV made a wise move updating the carton ...


----------



## mx6bfast

I was pointed to this thread after it was closed so I missed a lot of the discussion, and apparently other things since it was closed.  

So from reading the first post and skimming thru others, it appears that D* will try to give us DLB, and the 21 line provide OTA?


----------



## harsh

mx6bfast said:


> So from reading the first post and skimming thru others, it appears that D* will try to give us DLB, and the 21 line provide OTA?


No and no. DLB was not part of the discussion (although it may have lead to the thread being closed).

OTA is supposed to be provided externally, so while it should work with the '21 series, it is not "provided" by the '21 series. DIRECTV would foolishly appear to be banking on the idea that they'll have sufficient LIL coverage to make most everyone happy.


----------



## ShiningBengal

harsh said:


> No and no. DLB was not part of the discussion (although it may have lead to the thread being closed).
> 
> OTA is supposed to be provided externally, so while it should work with the '21 series, it is not "provided" by the '21 series. DIRECTV would foolishly appear to be banking on the idea that they'll have sufficient LIL coverage to make most everyone happy.


I rather think it will be designed to be exclusive to the HR21. Perhaps the software will be some sort of patch to enable an external OTA tuner, or perhaps it will be part of a national release for it. There _will_ have to be a software update to enable OTA. I'm confident it will "work" but it may not be quite as "seamless" as some people think it will be.

No software update would be needed for the HR20, and the HR21 will not work for the external OTA device without one.

(Not correcting what you stated, just adding to it for some who may not be aware that an external OTA tuner cannot work if the software doesn't specifically enable it to do so. Right now, I don't think the USB port does anything.)


----------



## mx6bfast

harsh said:


> No and no. DLB was not part of the discussion (although it may have lead to the thread being closed).
> 
> OTA is supposed to be provided externally, so while it should work with the '21 series, it is not "provided" by the '21 series. DIRECTV would foolishly appear to be banking on the idea that they'll have sufficient LIL coverage to make most everyone happy.


Ok thanks. I didn't know if Tivo had a patent on buffers and D* needed another name on it.

I don't have a 21 so don't have a comment. I'll remove my sub to this thread so I don't help it get closed again.


----------



## harsh

ShiningBengal said:


> I rather think it will be designed to be exclusive to the HR21.


I hope it isn't denied to the H21 crowd. That would be another big slap in the face.


----------



## ShiningBengal

harsh said:


> I hope it isn't denied to the H21 crowd. That would be another big slap in the face.


 My concern, from what has been leaked about the external tuner is that it is no larger than a flash drive. I doubt, based on that alone is that it could contain two OTA tuners. There would also have to be some kind of RF amplifier contained within that small appliance. Where does the MPEG signal get decoded? Does the decoder in the HR21 detect the type of encryption and decode it with a different decoder? If the same decoder is used in the HR21 as is the case with the HR20, that should not be much of a problem. If it doesn't, well, I guess there is a problem.

My other concern is that I have seen nothing about what kind of antenna feeds it, and how it is attached to the tuner. If anything has been mentioned here, I missed it.

I'm sure it will work, but I very much doubt that it will provide the same performance as the HR20 provides.

If I wanted another OTA capable DVR, I'd be looking for an HR20 now.

Aside->Yesterday I was at Costco and they had about a dozen HD-DVR+ receivers, only one of which was an HR20. There was a shopper looking at the display, somwhat confusedly. I offered my help, and told him what the difference was. He asked if they were the same price ($269.00) and I answered affirmatively. He thanked me and grabbed the HR20.


----------



## bpratt

I hope Earl lets us know soon what the HR21 OTA solution will look like, how soon can we hope to see it and what will the cost be. I am scheduled to receive two HR2x systems on January 11 to replace two HR10-250s. There is no way I will accept the HR21 without this information.

Last night we had a snow storm with winds out of the south. My satellite dish is covered with ice and I get no reception this morning. OTA works great.


----------



## ShiningBengal

bpratt said:


> I hope Earl lets us know soon what the HR21 OTA solution will look like, how soon can we hope to see it and what will the cost be. I am scheduled to receive two HR2x systems on January 11 to replace two HR10-250s. There is no way I will accept the HR21 without this information.
> 
> Last night we had a snow storm with winds out of the south. My satellite dish is covered with ice and I get no reception this morning. OTA works great.


Unless you want to buy a pig-in-a-poke, most probably an HR21 without any OTA capability now, and who knows what in the future, I'd contact DirecTV.

Others have been authorized by DirecTV to purchase HR20's or otherwise obtain them (I am one of those) when HR20's could not be delivered with any assurance.

I don't have the number, but you might start with Customer Retention. That will save a lot of wasted time on hold. Quite a few Costco's still have stock of HR20's, and there are a number of online resellers who sell these at the $299 list price or less. If you buy them at Costco I believe you get a 3-year warranty, a $269 price, and no shipping charge.


----------



## Doug Brott

ShiningBengal said:


> My concern, from what has been leaked about the external tuner is that it is no larger than a flash drive. I doubt, based on that alone is that it could contain two OTA tuners. There would also have to be some kind of RF amplifier contained within that small appliance. Where does the MPEG signal get decoded? Does the decoder in the HR21 detect the type of encryption and decode it with a different decoder? If the same decoder is used in the HR21 as is the case with the HR20, that should not be much of a problem. If it doesn't, well, I guess there is a problem.


The decoder in the HR21 supports MPEG2 format just fine. The processor is actually better than the one in the HR20, but at present, there is no discernible difference in performance. So the device will not have to handle any decoding, only the ability to tune to a particular channel and send the MPEG2 data to the HR21.



ShiningBengal said:


> My other concern is that I have seen nothing about what kind of antenna feeds it, and how it is attached to the tuner. If anything has been mentioned here, I missed it.


I'd say that since it's receiving ATSC, that any antenna capable of that will work .. in other words, if it works for the HR20 and for your TV directly, then it will work for the HR21 ..



ShiningBengal said:


> I'm sure it will work, but I very much doubt that it will provide the same performance as the HR20 provides.
> 
> If I wanted another OTA capable DVR, I'd be looking for an HR20 now.


I'm not sure why you would suggest this. Seems to me that it would be one of those things that either works or it doesn't. As long as the proper bit rates can be maintained, then it's done .. It's not like the data is going to be delivered faster than it comes in OTA, so once the fastest bit rate has been met, then you're covered. There really should be no reason to think that the quality will be different other than determining if the actual tuners are better/worse for getting the RF from the tower ..


----------



## harsh

ShiningBengal said:


> My concern, from what has been leaked about the external tuner is that it is no larger than a flash drive.


I'm not sure where you saw that, but I give it very little credibility.


> There would also have to be some kind of RF amplifier contained within that small appliance.


Why? If isn't producing an RF output, so it shouldn't need an RF amplifier.


> Where does the MPEG signal get decoded?


In the '21 of course.

If I had to bet on something, I'd bet on the HDHomeRun.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> My concern, from what has been leaked about the external tuner is that it is no larger than a flash drive. I doubt, based on that alone is that it could contain two OTA tuners.


I can 100% guarantee that it is a dual tuner solution for ATSC.

Where did you see that it is going to be no larger than a flash drive?
As that leak, needs to be fixed... as it is not a very good one.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Doug Brott said:


> I'd say that since it's receiving ATSC, that any antenna capable of that will work .. in other words, if it works for the HR20 and for your TV directly, then it will work for the HR21 ....


I'm sure that there must be an antenna. But the device I've seen in an earlier post has no obvious connection. The HR21 doesn't have a 75 ohm coax connector on it. That was the reason for my comment.



Doug Brott said:


> I'm not sure why you would suggest this. Seems to me that it would be one of those things that either works or it doesn't. As long as the proper bit rates can be maintained, then it's done .. It's not like the data is going to be delivered faster than it comes in OTA, so once the fastest bit rate has been met, then you're covered. There really should be no reason to think that the quality will be different other than determining if the actual tuners are better/worse for getting the RF from the tower ..


We know the HR20 works reasonably well in receiving OTA and delivering very watchable TV programming. We know nothing of the HR21's capability. We also don't know if there will be dual OTA tuning capability, unless I missed something.

The fact is, there are all kinds of attributes to a quality tuner beyond that it works or doesn't. How about sensitivity, or multipath rejection to name just two.

There are all kinds of design problems in trying to fit a quality dual tuner in such a small package, and then feeding the output through a USB port, that don't exist in the HR20.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I am saying I have my doubts that it will work as well on its maiden voyage mated to the HR21 as the HR20 works now. Just one more potential cause for concern.

The add-on tuner option, for now, is a pig-in-a-poke. It exists in some iteration of development now, but that's all we really know. How many hardware issues will DirecTV HR21 owners be forced to deal with after adding this device? Will it cause the HR21 to have seemingly unrelated issues that it does not now have?

How many software iterations will be necessary to get it to work as well as the HR20's tuners do now (if it ever does)?

DirecTV doesn't have a very good track record in recent times in delivering systems that work "out-of-the box." There are marketing pressures on DirecTV to get this device on the market soon. Just as there were when they unleashed the original HR20 over a year ago.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> We also don't know if there will be dual OTA tuning capability, unless I missed something.


Both Tom and I have confirmed and posted, that the solution will in fact be a DUAL OTA Tuner solution...



ShiningBengal said:


> There are marketing pressures on DirecTV to get this device on the market soon. Just as there were when they unleashed the original HR20 over a year ago.


There is not as much "pressure" for the ATSC option for the HR21, then the initial pressure to get the HR20.... not even in the same ballpark.

While the ATSC solution, will be released... when it is ready to be released.
The "pressure" to get it out there, is not as many of you think/suggest it to be.

As more and more DMA's get HD Locals via SAT, and channels in existing DMA's continue to get added... that pressure/demand continues to drop.

It will never been eliminated, nor is that the goal (as shown by the fact they are even developing/building the ATSC solution for the HR21)


----------



## ShiningBengal

Earl Bonovich said:


> Both Tom and I have confirmed and posted, that the solution will in fact be a DUAL OTA Tuner solution...
> 
> There is not as much "pressure" for the ATSC option for the HR21, then the initial pressure to get the HR20.... not even in the same ballpark.
> 
> While the ATSC solution, will be released... when it is ready to be released.
> The "pressure" to get it out there, is not as many of you think/suggest it to be.
> 
> As more and more DMA's get HD Locals via SAT, and channels in existing DMA's continue to get added... that pressure/demand continues to drop.
> 
> It will never been eliminated, nor is that the goal (as shown by the fact they are even developing/building the ATSC solution for the HR21)


Good to know that dual tuners are part of the design. That said, until the solution has withstood the acid test of this forum for a few weeks after its release, I remain skeptical.

You have added another reason to the ones I listed to choose the still available HR20 now over the HR21 w/ outboard USB OTA tuners (yet to be released): We don't really know when the solution will be ready, particularly since you have stated that the pressure/demand continues to drop. And we also don't know how well it will work. Do we? 

My point is that, for those for whom OTA is important, and for whom the option is available, the wisest and safest thing is to get your HR20 while you can. If you look, you can find them.


----------



## BattleScott

I would have to agree with **gulp** bengal. The hardware is cookie-cutter, but the integration to the HR21 is pure software. The only thing that is certain about the entire project is that there will be bugs and that they will take time to fix. If it is as Earl says, that the demand is becoming less and less, those fixes will be slow coming. Anyone who has the need for OTA and has the chance to get the HR-20 now should take advantage of it.


----------



## Nick-IA

I just had a tech come on-site and switch out my hr20 with a new black one because my other one died. I am guessing this is the hr21. Now I dont have any ota! I went from free hd locals to having to get someone out here hook up another dish and pay for sd locals! I am furious to say the least! Is there any way I can get a hr20 and swap it out with this one? I didnt have to pay for my hr20, they gave it to me for free. I hope I dont need to pay to much to swap this out.

Nick


----------



## bpratt

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just like I did with the DLB thread.
> 
> This topic:
> "TIME-OUT" till Friday: 01/04/2008 ~ 10pm CST
> 
> We need a cool down period... so we can come back and discuss this rationally. And who knows... maybe at that time, I will have some new concreate information for you all.


I have to assume from posts in this thread that D* is currently testing hardware and/or software for the OTA adapter for the HR21. As I stated in a previous post, I will not accept an HR21 until I know for sure an OTA solution will be there. 
Since Earl stated when he closed this thread that when it re-opened on 01/04 he maybe would have some new concreate information about this testing, but he didn't, I must also assume the testing is not going well. Therefore, when the installer arrives next Friday, I will reject and cancel the order if all they can provide is an HR21.


----------



## RobertE

bpratt said:


> I have to assume from posts in this thread that D* is currently testing hardware and/or software for the OTA adapter for the HR21. As I stated in a previous post, I will not accept an HR21 until I know for sure an OTA solution will be there.
> Since Earl stated when he closed this thread that when it re-opened on 01/04 he maybe would have some new concreate information about this testing, but he didn't, I must also assume the testing is not going well. Therefore, when the installer arrives next Friday, I will reject and cancel the order if all they can provide is an HR21.


IMHO, you should just cancel now and save yourself and the installer the time and frustration of it all.


----------



## ShiningBengal

RobertE said:


> IMHO, you should just cancel now and save yourself and the installer the time and frustration of it all.


It is a very safe bet that he won't get an HR20. I haven't heard of anyone getting anything but HR21's for quite a long time. My installer told me that their warehouse had "sent back" all their HR20's to DirecTV and were not expected to get any more. That was in November.

Since I had a defective HR20 that was being replaced by the local installer, I rejected the HR21 that was offered. It took several phone calls taking more than a hour of my time, but I eventually got them to FedEx me one from their central warehouse for me to self-install.

Anyone who wants an HR20 now will likely have to buy it from a retailer, and if appropriate, get the prior authorization from DirecTV to reimburse you for it.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Nick-IA said:


> I just had a tech come on-site and switch out my hr20 with a new black one because my other one died. I am guessing this is the hr21. Now I dont have any ota! I went from free hd locals to having to get someone out here hook up another dish and pay for sd locals! I am furious to say the least! Is there any way I can get a hr20 and swap it out with this one? I didnt have to pay for my hr20, they gave it to me for free. I hope I dont need to pay to much to swap this out.
> 
> Nick


Black=HR21 

There are a few locations that won't receive SD locals without another dish, but you shouldn't have to pay for them.

You should go to retention and explain the situation. If you are diplomatic, it is likely they will find one for you. They have been trying to maintain a segregated stock of HR20's for situations such as yours.

I had a similar situation back in November, and they did so for me at no charge.


----------



## bwclark

As a cable user looking to move to DirectTV after several decades with the local cable company, I find that with the HR21 the only locals available will be with the OTA "solution" using an antenna. Being in an isolated area sometimes has disadvantages when it comes to technology.

I will remain with the cable until DirectTV gets the solution out and it has been tested and works...well.

Until then, I remain..... The Cable Guy.


----------



## RAD

IIRC that even Earl had posted that D* had a process in place to make sure a dead HR20 would be replaced by a HR20 and if it wasn't happening to PM him and he'd make sure that it was directed to the correct people to resolve.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bpratt said:


> I have to assume from posts in this thread that D* is currently testing hardware and/or software for the OTA adapter for the HR21. As I stated in a previous post, I will not accept an HR21 until I know for sure an OTA solution will be there.
> Since Earl stated when he closed this thread that when it re-opened on 01/04 he maybe would have some new concreate information about this testing, but he didn't, I must also assume the testing is not going well. Therefore, when the installer arrives next Friday, I will reject and cancel the order if all they can provide is an HR21.


You know what they say about assuming things.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Sure glad my brand new TV has ATSC and NTSC tuners built in. That works just fine for any scenario. OTA tuners on the HR21 would just be icing on the cake. Then I would not have to switch the input signal on the TV and it is a good thing they make remotes. Could you imagine having to teach my dog another duty?


----------



## ShiningBengal

Spanky_Partain said:


> Sure glad my brand new TV has ATSC and NTSC tuners built in. That works just fine for any scenario. OTA tuners on the HR21 would just be icing on the cake. Then I would not have to switch the input signal on the TV and it is a good thing they make remotes. Could you imagine having to teach my dog another duty?


That will work just fine if you don't want to record OTA. And if you happen to be watching two OTA sporting events that happen to be on at the same time, you will have to switch back and forth, or just watch the one you are happy with. And of course, you will constantly be fiddling with your input selection. You will not have two switch the input cables themselves, but you will have to grab your remote and tell your TV which input you want to watch. And don't forget your TV guide, since you don't get that OTA either. Ditto for a $50 eBay ATSC purchased OTA receiver.

Not a real good solution compared with an HR20.

By the way, there is no need whatever for NTSC tuners. In any market you are able to get HD OTA, the stations will also be broadcasting standard definition OTA on ATSC (digital) sub-channels. I live in Minneapolis and can currently receive all 15 local TV channels digitally. No NTSC necessary to get SD.


----------



## Ace Deprave

I apologize for not being able to read this entire thread for an answer, if it is there. My dad is scheduled for D* installation on Tuesday. Are there any HR20s available for areas (like here) that don't offer locals at all? If he can't get locals OTA, he is better off staying with Dish. (I've been trying to get him to switch since 1998).


----------



## ShiningBengal

harsh said:


> I'm not sure where you saw that, but I give it very little credibility.Why? If isn't producing an RF output, so it shouldn't need an RF amplifier.In the '21 of course.
> 
> If I had to bet on something, I'd bet on the HDHomeRun.


There have been several photos of the device posted here and elsewhere on the Internet. It is approximately the size of a USB flash drive. The USB connector is attached in exactly the same fashion as a USB flash drive. If you didn't know what it was from the markings, it wouldn't be a bad guess that it is a USB flash drive. Can't be much bigger or it wouldn't fit in the space available. Spent a few minutes searching for the photo, but didn't find it. I figured you'd expend the effort if you are interested.

The tuner doesn't need to output RF. It needs to amplify RF on the front end, just like any other RF tuner does. It then must be sent to a local oscillator. A typical application is where the amplification of the signal received from the antenna before it is mixed with a local oscillator signal in the first detector of a radio receiver. It then goes to an IF amplifier. All of this has, plus a lot more, has to go on in the tuner/receiver. Yes, this can all go on (in fact, pretty much has to in this instance) in a single small chip. But it isn't a walk in the park.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> There have been several photos of the device posted here and elsewhere on the Internet. It is approximately the size of a USB flash drive. The USB connector is attached in exactly the same fashion as a USB flash drive. If you didn't know what it was from the markings, it wouldn't be a bad guess that it is a USB flash drive. Can't be much bigger or it wouldn't fit in the space available. Spent a few minutes searching for the photo, but didn't find it. I figured you'd expend the effort if you are interested.


Are you talking about this, or sometihng that looks like this?










This is the Pinnacle HD Ultimate Stick, currently on the market for PCs. I'm sure if you've seen pictures, they were just people posting what the OTA solution could potentially look like.

I would trust Earl and Tom that they know what they're talking about and the final OTA solutio will NOT look like this ...


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> Are you talking about this, or sometihng that looks like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the Pinnacle HD Ultimate Stick, currently on the market for PCs. I'm sure if you've seen pictures, they were just people posting what the OTA solution could potentially look like.
> 
> I would trust Earl and Tom that they know what they're talking about and the final OTA solutio will NOT look like this ...


That is not the picture I was referring to. I believe the photo was a SonicBlue product. If I'm not mistaken, DirecTV recently purchased this company, and obviously the technolgy that went into its outboard ATSC tuner, which is a USB compatible product.

Here is a link to one of the websites I found it on: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ent...-personal-hd-to-roll-out-wednesday-300487.php and here is another: http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_hvr950.html

I really, really doubt that DirecTV would completely redesign a current product of a company they now own to provide their outboard ATSC solution for the HR21.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> That is not the picture I was referring to. I believe the photo was a Sonicblue product. If I'm not mistaken, DirecTV recently purchased this company, and obviously the technolgy that went into its outboard ATSC tuner, which is a USB compatible product.


That doesn't mean that any existing Sonicblue product (or any other USB OTA , for that matter) will be the one DIRECTV will use as their OTA solution for the HR21. DIRECTV most likely contracted with some company to build a new, enclosed dualt-tuner solution, customized to DIRECTVs specifications.


----------



## loudo

Ace Deprave said:


> I apologize for not being able to read this entire thread for an answer, if it is there. My dad is scheduled for D* installation on Tuesday. Are there any HR20s available for areas (like here) that don't offer locals at all? If he can't get locals OTA, he is better off staying with Dish. (I've been trying to get him to switch since 1998).


The installers should call the day before, to verify the scheduled installation. At that time it could be discussed with them your need for the HR20. Also when the original order was placed it might of helped if you asked for them, at that time. My understanding is that most new installations have been getting the HR21. HR20's have been available mostly for replacement of existing HR20s, that have had problems.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> That doesn't mean that any existing Sonicblue product (or any other USB OTA , for that matter) will be the one DIRECTV will use as their OTA solution for the HR21. DIRECTV most likely contracted with some company to build a new, enclosed dualt-tuner solution, customized to DIRECTVs specifications.


Why, then, did they buy SonicBlue?

I believe this little device is now SonicBlue's ONLY product. Obviously there will need to be some changes to make this work with the HR21, as their device is designed to be used with Windows or OS-X operating systems. But that's just software.

If a USB port is not used, what other port would you suggest as an alternative? An Ethernet port? I don't think so.

1.) DirecTV bought a company whose only product is a USB compatible outboard ASTC tuner.
2.) The only port available on the HR21 is one of the two USB ports, currently not available for any other known purpose.

I could be wrong, but if I were a betting man, I know where I'd put my money. By the way, the SonicBlue product is in fact a new, enclosed ATSC tuner. It can tune to cable stations as well, which obviously DirecTV won't want. There will be some changes, both to the hardware and the software. But it is a safe bet it will LOOK a lot like the devices I linked to in my last post.


----------



## RobertE

Is it smaller than a bread box?


----------



## bhelton71

ShiningBengal said:


> Why, then, did they buy SonicBlue?
> 
> I believe this little device is now SonicBlue's ONLY product. Obviously there will need to be some changes to make this work with the HR21, as their device is designed to be used with Windows or OS-X operating systems. But that's just software.


No way its a stick device - two tuners requires an internal splitter at the very least.

This is the Replay product in question I think:


----------



## loudo

I think this could be in the future of DirecTV, especially since DirecTV bought RePlay TV last month.


----------



## ShiningBengal

bhelton71 said:


> No way its a stick device - two tuners requires an internal splitter at the very least.
> 
> This is the Replay product in question I think:


Replay is Sonic Blue's brand. It is in fact the identical product I linked to in my last post.

You state that the inclusion of a splitter precludes a "stick device?" On what basis? A stick device can hold the equivalent of the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica, including photos and formatting. A splitter can be put on a single chip, along with rf amplifiers, oscillators, detectors, dual tuners, if amplifiers and a heck of a lot more. Easy? No. Possible. Of course.

An integrated splitter doesn't have to be anything like the size of your typical external splitter. It handles microvolts with essentially zero current. It does not need mechanical strength and weather resistance. Believe me, it will fit.

The only hardware requirement for this device is that it have an RG-6 coax connector on one end and a USB connector at the other.


----------



## ShiningBengal

RobertE said:


> Is it smaller than a bread box?


LOL--It will have to be small, or people who only have a limited amount of space behind their HR21's will have problems. We know it can be as small as a "thumb drive." It's been done by a company DirecTV bought last year--Sonic Blue, who owns the Replay brand among others. They bought the company (essentially its intellectual property since it no longer manufactures anything) for a number of undisclosed reasons, including lawsuit immunity on intellectual property they are using now.

Since there are no good reasons to make it big (cost of shipping, cost of warehousing, cost of raw materials, etc.) and no good reasons not to, it will be small. We know how small it can be. I think a good bet is that it won't be much bigger if at all than the Replay branded device I linked to in an earlier post.

Earl says it's not the same. But "the same" means identical. I'm sure it won't be identical. But it will most likely be much more similar that it is different. (IMHO)


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

ShiningBengal said:


> That is not the picture I was referring to. I believe the photo was a SonicBlue product. If I'm not mistaken, DirecTV recently purchased this company, and obviously the technolgy that went into its outboard ATSC tuner, which is a USB compatible product.


Actually, I believe DirecTV bought ReplayTV from D&M Holdings. ReplayTV was formerly owned by SonicBlue. D&M purchased ReplayTV after SonicBlue filed for bankruptcy in 2003. At least that appears to be the sequence of events as best as I can discern after doing a quick search. I hadn't heard anything about DirecTV buying SonicBlue, so I started searching. It appears SonicBlue has been Kaput for 5 years...

Its certainly a possibility that they bought it for the ReplayTV HD USB tuner, but it's equally possible that they bought it because there was something in those old ReplayTV DVRs that they wanted.

One more thing... The ReplayTV device appears to be a rebranded Hauppauge 950, and if it is, I don't know what rights DirecTV may or may not have received along with the ReplayTV brand.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> Why, then, did they buy SonicBlue?
> 
> I believe this little device is now SonicBlue's ONLY product. Obviously there will need to be some changes to make this work with the HR21, as their device is designed to be used with Windows or OS-X operating systems. But that's just software.
> 
> If a USB port is not used, what other port would you suggest as an alternative? An Ethernet port? I don't think so.
> 
> 1.) DirecTV bought a company whose only product is a USB compatible outboard ASTC tuner.
> 2.) The only port available on the HR21 is one of the two USB ports, currently not available for any other known purpose.
> 
> I could be wrong, but if I were a betting man, I know where I'd put my money. By the way, the SonicBlue product is in fact a new, enclosed ATSC tuner. It can tune to cable stations as well, which obviously DirecTV won't want. There will be some changes, both to the hardware and the software. But it is a safe bet it will LOOK a lot like the devices I linked to in my last post.


I haven't seen anything to suggest it *won't* be a USB device. I certainly did not say that, nor suggest that.

All I'm saying is that there are various existing USB HD tuners currently on the market, but that doesn't mean we will see ANY of those existing products being supplied by DIRECTV as their solution. DIRECTV wants a dual-tuner solution and that likely means they had to custom build it through a contractor. Have some patience and let's see what Earl and Tom have to say after CES ... I have a feeling we'll start to learn more specifics about the OTA tuner either during or shortly after CES 2008.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> LOL--It will have to be small, or people who only have a limited amount of space behind their HR21's will have problems. We know it can be as small as a "thumb drive."


It doesn't even have to fit behind the HR21 if it's a USB solution. If you have a USB printer connected to your PC, do you park the printer *behind* your PC? Nope ... you use a USB cable.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> I haven't seen anything to suggest it *won't* be a USB device. I certainly did not say that, nor suggest that.


My apologies...I misread your post. You certainly didn't say or suggest that it wouldn't be a USB device.



Drew2k said:


> All I'm saying is that there are various existing USB HD tuners currently on the market, but that doesn't mean we will see ANY of those existing products being supplied by DIRECTV as their solution. DIRECTV wants a dual-tuner solution and that likely means they had to custom build it through a contractor. Have some patience and let's see what Earl and Tom have to say after CES ... I have a feeling we'll start to learn more specifics about the OTA tuner either during or shortly after CES 2008.


I think you are correct. Until we see it, we are left with conjecture. Those who have seen it aren't admitting it...at least on this forum. There is no question that they will build through a contractor...The HR21 is built though several. Consumer electronics are no longer manufactured in the USA. The existing Replay device, now owned by DirecTV, is manufactured by a contractor. If you are going to build, potentially hundreds of thousands of copies of a product, making changes in it are cheap on a unitary basis. The intellectual property that goes into such products is not as easy to come by. That is what they now own with the acquisition of the Replay item.

Miniaturization is what the Replay techonology brings to the table. Everything else in their product has been done before, and by others. I do understand that there are other patent related potential problems that are averted in the purchase.

But since they bought and paid for the technology necessary to build the new, improved moustrap, they can now build it. Pacific Rim nations in particular can tool up practically overnight to build any electronic component you might need.

But I will stick to my prediction: The DirecTV OTA solution will look more like the Replay device than it doesn't, at least as far as the technology is concerned. If Earl thinks putting a dongle at one end, or changes the shape or the color of the enclosure makes it different, so be it.

To me, it's still pretty much the same product.


----------



## Drew2k

Personally, I envision it will look like a desktop USB hub, with a power jack, an OTA antenna connector, and the USB output port.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

ShiningBengal said:


> The intellectual property that goes into such products is not as easy to come by. That is what they now own with the acquisition of the Replay item.


Maybe.

If ReplayTV didn't own the IP, which would likely be the case if it is, in fact, a rebranded Hauppauge 950, then DirecTV by extension would not own the IP either.

If that's the case, then, hardware wise, there would be little advantage to buying ReplayTV, as they could have gone directly to Hauppauge to contract the manufacturing of the product. Which would lend credence to the original reports of the ReplayTV purchase - that DirecTV wanted the software.

And, further, IF the ReplayTv is rebranded, and the purchase wasn't for the hardware, then we still have very little evidence as to what the DirecTV product may look like.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> It doesn't even have to fit behind the HR21 if it's a USB solution. If you have a USB printer connected to your PC, do you park the printer *behind* your PC? Nope ... you use a USB cable.


Yes, but that means more expense for a long USB cable. $10 on top of a $50 device is expensive. Computer installations nearly always allow for space for a printer nearby. It requires user involvement, so it must be somewhat remote. How do you retrieve copies if your printer is hidden behind your computer?

None of my installations--I have 3--would allow for a large outboard tuner. The HR21 I have on top of a long dresser sits by itself below a 50" Plasma display. Yes, I could put an ugly small box next to it, but that feature wouldn't endear it to me. I actually had the choice to buy an HR20, but chose the HR21 for its glossy black enclosure, since I don't have a way to cosmetically acommodate an antenna anyway.

(I abhor looking at electronic paraphernalia in my home and have gone to some extent to eliminate such clutter. All of the wiring in all 3 of my setups is concealed.)

That said, since it is certainly possible to build a very small enclosure and have it reside behind either the HR21 or some other object, that would eliminate a lot of concern about running additional cabling. So why not do it? No one will object to an electronic device that requires no interaction that is small and concealable.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> Yes, but that means more expense for a long USB cable. $10 on top of a $50 device is expensive. Computer installations nearly always allow for space for a printer nearby. It requires user involvement, so it must be somewhat remote.


You are definitely shopping at the wrong places if you pay $10 for a USB cable. 

Check out Monoprice.com - 6 ft. cables for 63¢, and I have no doubt DIRECTV would supply the cable.



> None of my installations--I have 3--would allow for a large outboard tuner. The HR21 I have on top of a long dresser sits by itself below a 50" Plasma display. Yes, I could put an ugly small box next to it, but that feature wouldn't endear it to me. I actually had the choice to buy an HR20, but chose the HR21 for its glossy black enclosure, since I don't have a way to cosmetically accommodate an antenna.
> 
> (I abhor looking at electronic paraphernalia in my home and have gone to some extent to eliminate such clutter. All of the wiring in all 3 of my setups is concealed.)
> 
> That said, since it is certainly possible to build a very small enclosure and have it reside behind either the HR21 or some other object, that would eliminate a lot of concern about running additional cabling. So why not do it? No one will object to an electronic device that requires no interaction that is small and concealable.


Put the box on the floor then. Do you want a tuner or not? First you had a concern there wouldn't be space behind the DVR itself if it was a "dongle" type solution. Now you're concerned that you won't have room anywhere for it, even if it's the size of a hub?

As I said earlier, I envision the DIRECTV solution being the size of a desktop USB hub. These measure about 5" wide by 4" deep by 1" high. Surely that sounds like the "small enclosure" from your last paragraph?


----------



## ShiningBengal

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Maybe.
> 
> If ReplayTV didn't own the IP, which would likely be the case if it is, in fact, a rebranded Hauppauge 950, then DirecTV by extension would not own the IP either.
> 
> If that's the case, then, hardware wise, there would be little advantage to buying ReplayTV, as they could have gone directly to Hauppauge to contract the manufacturing of the product. Which would lend credence to the original reports of the ReplayTV purchase - that DirecTV wanted the software.
> 
> And, further, IF the ReplayTv is rebranded, and the purchase wasn't for the hardware, then we still have very little evidence as to what the DirecTV product may look like.


 Replay does in fact own the IP for the product. It is licensed to Hauppauge by Replay. That is public information.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> You are definitely shopping at the wrong places if you pay $10 for a USB cable.
> 
> Check out Monoprice.com - 6 ft. cables for 63¢, and I have no doubt DIRECTV would supply the cable.
> 
> Put the box on the floor then. Do you want a tuner or not? First you had a concern there wouldn't be space behind the DVR itself if it was a "dongle" type solution. Now you're concerned that you won't have room anywhere for it, even if it's the size of a hub?
> 
> As I said earlier, I envision the DIRECTV solution being the size of a desktop USB hub. These measure about 5" wide by 4" deep by 1" high. Surely that sounds like the "small enclosure" from your last paragraph?


Actually, I wouldn't have any objection to a box the size you mention. I was objecting to the idea of putting a device the size of a typical tuner on a table 10 feet away from the HR21. I even suggested in an earlier post that a dongle type device might be what DirecTV eventually comes up with. A dongle is cheaper than a 10 foot cable. A 10 foot cable isn't a dongle. At least mine isn't that long.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

ShiningBengal said:


> Replay does in fact own the IP for the product. It is licensed to Hauppauge by Replay. That is public information.


Where do you find that information?

According to Gizmodo, Hauppauge owns the hardware and modified it for rebranding by Replay.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/replaytv/

I can't find any information about Replay having IP or Patents on hardware solutions - only software. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't find the information and would love to know where you did.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Where do you find that information?
> 
> According to Gizmodo, Hauppauge owns the hardware and modified it for rebranding by Replay.
> 
> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/replaytv/
> 
> I can't find any information about Replay having IP or Patents on hardware solutions - only software. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't find the information and would love to know where you did.


It is mentioned in a public announcement made by DirecTV in conjunction with their purchase of the assets of Replay from D&M. Too late and too tired to go looking for it now.

I'll post it tomorrow. Stay tuned.

Edit: Tomorrow arrived early. This isn't the exact article, but it contains the statement by DirecTV spokeswoman Jade Ekstedt that I based my post on:

http://news.smh.com.au/directv-buys-dvr-software-maker-replaytv/20071215-1h8u.html

It clearly states that the intellectual property and patents that Replay owns were the driving force behind the decision to buy most of the assets of Replay from D&M Holdings.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

ShiningBengal said:


> It is mentioned in a public announcement made by DirecTV in conjunction with their purchase of the assets of Replay from D&M. Too late and too tired to go looking for it now.
> 
> I'll post it tomorrow. Stay tuned.


I'll wait with bated breath.

In the meantime, everything I can find suggests that the IP to the USB tuner, does, in fact, belong to hauppauge. For the release of the Replay TV package, they modified that product for resale by Replay.

Replay owns all the DVR software, which they have been developing for Hauppauge for quite some time, but post 2006, began using hardware which was not their own.

I did find a quote by DirecTV which said they thought ReplayTV was a "... significant portfolio in the area of DVRs and advanced DVR features," DirecTV said, adding that "no decisions have been made concerning the integration of Replay technology with our existing platform."

I can't find any references to any ReplayTV Hardware, however.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

ShiningBengal said:


> It is mentioned in a public announcement made by DirecTV in conjunction with their purchase of the assets of Replay from D&M. Too late and too tired to go looking for it now.
> 
> I'll post it tomorrow. Stay tuned.
> 
> Edit: Tomorrow arrived early. This isn't the exact article, but it contains the statement by DirecTV spokeswoman Jade Ekstedt that I based my post on:
> 
> http://news.smh.com.au/directv-buys-dvr-software-maker-replaytv/20071215-1h8u.html
> 
> It clearly states that the intellectual property and patents that Replay owns were the driving force behind the decision to buy most of the assets of Replay from D&M Holdings.


Same quote I found. But it makes no reference to hardware, and, I believe, that it refers only to the Replay TV Software.

The USB Tuner portion of the "Replay TV Personal HD" still belongs to Hauppauge, as far as I can tell.

Upon further review, the PC TUNER Intellectual Property belongs to Imagination Technologies and is licensed to Hauppauge through QED Intellectual Property, Limited. It is also licensed to Temic Telefunken, Microtune, Philips Electronics and Samsung. No mention of ReplayTV, because they never manufactured a PC Tuner product - they licensed said product from hauppauge.

ReplayTV's IP is the front end, which is what they were licensing TO hauppauge.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Same quote I found. But it makes no reference to hardware, and, I believe, that it refers only to the Replay TV Software.
> 
> The USB Tuner portion of the "Replay TV Personal HD" still belongs to Hauppauge, as far as I can tell.


You may be correct. It may also be correct that Replay and Hauppauge both have their fingers in the pie. I find it curious that only two brand names are applied to the Replay/Hauppauge product.

It is apparent that externally, the devices appear virtually identical. But there may be some differences inside. The remote controls for the two devices are completely different. That may be a clue to internal differences as well.

The cross licensing of product and patents sometimes really requires experienced attorneys to figure out.

For example, software, technically speaking, cannot be patented. It is copyrighted. And only IP (which can include both software and patents) and the patent portfolio are mentioned by Jade Ekhardt. No mention of software specifically.

The ideas driving the creation of softwear's source code, the reason for the code's existance, however, can be patented. It's a fine point, but I've been working with software vendors for many years, and it is a clear distinction.

Now to bed.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

ShiningBengal said:


> You may be correct. It may also be correct that Replay and Hauppauge both have their fingers in the pie. I find it curious that only two brand names are applied to the Replay/Hauppauge product.
> 
> It is apparent that externally, the devices appear virtually identical. But there may be some differences inside. The remote controls for the two devices are completely different. That may be a clue to internal differences as well.
> 
> The cross licensing of product and patents sometimes really requires experienced attorneys to figure out.
> 
> For example, software, technically speaking, cannot be patented. It is copyrighted. And only IP (which can include both software and patents) and the patent portfolio are mentioned by Jade Ekhardt. No mention of software specifically.
> 
> The ideas driving the creation of softwear's source code, the reason for the code's existance, however, can be patented. It's a fine point, but I've been working with software vendors for many years, and it is a clear distinction.
> 
> Now to bed.


We shall see, I suppose.

At some point, ReplayTV was making it's own hardware (or having it's own hardware made). I believe they hold a patent on a single circuit board DVR, though I'm not positive of this.

The hauppauge products have been around alot longer than ReplayTV, so I'm fairly confident that the tuner portion belongs to them....However, who knows what agreements were made when ReplayTV began developing the software for hauppaugge, and what portion of the pie they may have got their hands on at that point.

We'll find out soon enough. Or maybe not soon enough, but eventually.


----------



## Tom Robertson

This thread is supposed to be about the OTA solution so I can say that the Replay discussion is OT for this thread...  (Nice try tho)


----------



## Ace Deprave

loudo said:


> The installers should call the day before, to verify the scheduled installation. At that time it could be discussed with them your need for the HR20. Also when the original order was placed it might of helped if you asked for them, at that time. My understanding is that most new installations have been getting the HR21. HR20's have been available mostly for replacement of existing HR20s, that have had problems.


Thanks for the reply. I made sure that he told them he needed a receiver capable of receiving OTA channels, and he also asked if he would be getting an HR20, and the CSR said yes. I just am skeptical of CSR answers regarding this.


----------



## tpm1999

Although I am not sure if those who have the Directv "solution" can answer these questions yet...here we go.

1. Does the HR21 add on handle multipath issues better than the HR20-700? I have heard that the HR20-100 handles multpath issues better than the HR20-700...but I was wondering about the new HR21 add on.

2. Can the add on be used on an HR20 (either -700 or -100). If it gets better reception than my current HR20-700, then I may try to get one when it comes out.

Thanks


----------



## bwclark

Drew2k said:


> Personally, I envision it will look like a desktop USB hub, with a power jack, an OTA antenna connector, and the USB output port.


What about someone that does not want to install an antenna for a variety of reasons, could we see the ability to connect the local cable coax to it to get just the basic limited locals? :grin:


----------



## bwclark

Ace Deprave said:


> Thanks for the reply. I made sure that he told them he needed a receiver capable of receiving OTA channels, and he also asked if he would be getting an HR20, and the CSR said yes. I just am skeptical of CSR answers regarding this.


I talked Friday with a CSR about a pre-sales installation and the need for locals. The only ability I have for locals is either an antenna for the digital signals or the local cable. The CSR was non-responsive about the short comings of the HR21 and never offered any HR20 as a solution.

If he truly had wanted a sale, and the HR20 was available that he would have mentioned it to me...nothing.


----------



## Drew2k

bwclark said:


> What about someone that does not want to install an antenna for a variety of reasons, could we see the ability to connect the local cable coax to it to get just the basic limited locals? :grin:


If you want HD via cable, the OTA solution would require Clear QAM support, which I would love, but I don't think it's going to support it.

I don't think regular cable would work either.


----------



## litzdog911

tpm1999 said:


> Although I am not sure if those who have the Directv "solution" can answer these questions yet...here we go.
> 
> 1. Does the HR21 add on handle multipath issues better than the HR20-700? I have heard that the HR20-100 handles multpath issues better than the HR20-700...but I was wondering about the new HR21 add on.
> 
> 2. Can the add on be used on an HR20 (either -700 or -100). If it gets better reception than my current HR20-700, then I may try to get one when it comes out.
> 
> Thanks


I don't think anyone here knows the answers to those questions yet.


----------



## bhelton71

tpm1999 said:


> Although I am not sure if those who have the Directv "solution" can answer these questions yet...here we go.
> 
> 1. Does the HR21 add on handle multipath issues better than the HR20-700? I have heard that the HR20-100 handles multpath issues better than the HR20-700...but I was wondering about the new HR21 add on.
> 
> 2. Can the add on be used on an HR20 (either -700 or -100). If it gets better reception than my current HR20-700, then I may try to get one when it comes out.
> 
> Thanks


I think people mention the H20 ( non-DVR ) as having the later generation (5th) tuner. My personal theory is unless LG is building this (which is possible) then the addon will have a 4th gen design.

I can't remember exactly who (Earl maybe?) - but it has been mentioned the new device is not expected to work with the HR20 - which goes back to the first point - I would expect the new device to share the same tuner design as the HR20 currently has.


----------



## bwclark

Drew2k said:


> If you want HD via cable, the OTA solution would require Clear QAM support, which I would love, but I don't think it's going to support it.
> 
> I don't think regular cable would work either.


The locals here via cable are not in HD, not in digital...just plain vanila analog.  
But that is all that is available and I need them and can't get them....so the question if an antenna is not used.

My Panny plasma has no tuner, so the need.


----------



## jwd45244

bwclark said:


> What about someone that does not want to install an antenna for a variety of reasons, could we see the ability to connect the local cable coax to it to get just the basic limited locals? :grin:


Nope. The signals are not the same.


----------



## ShiningBengal

bwclark said:


> I talked Friday with a CSR about a pre-sales installation and the need for locals. The only ability I have for locals is either an antenna for the digital signals or the local cable. The CSR was non-responsive about the short comings of the HR21 and never offered any HR20 as a solution.
> 
> If he truly had wanted a sale, and the HR20 was available that he would have mentioned it to me...nothing.


They will not sell you an H20. The only time you can get an H20 from DirecTV is if you need an under-warranty replacement--and even then, you have to be talking to the right people. Let's face it...they aren't making nearly enough of them...if in fact they are still making them at all.

You can still find them at retail stores...Costco is a good choice if you have them locally. They are $30 less than what DirecTV would charge for them, plus you don't have to pay the $20+ tax shipping charge DirecTV adds on, so $50+ cheaper than DirecTV. There are other places you can buy them on line for the same price you would pay at DirecTV.

You CAN find one if you look hard enough. For now.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bwclark said:


> IThe CSR was non-responsive about the short comings of the HR21 and never offered any HR20 as a solution.


There are no "shortcomings" as you've described them. The HR21 was intentionally designed without OTA support. *Most* customers of DirecTV simply do not need and/or want OTA. Some do want it, and a few actually really do "need" it to get their locals. This has been bantored about here 100 times now.

There are tons of posts in another thread as well as this one about the pending OTA offering for the HR21 to resolve anyone who has that device and the HD locals "need".

There are also countless posts on how people DID get HR20's if and when they were "needed", along with the lack of acceptance (not you personally) of the fact that that OTA just isn't the life-altering issue most posters think it is...

The fact that DirecTV is even responding with an OTA solution for the HR21 validates that they even want to satisfy the vocal minority.

After looking at this thread since it started now, and seeing the NASCAR-type loop around the track, I'm reminded of the scene in National Lampoon's European Vacation and want to yell out:"*Big Ben*".


----------



## mossdaddy

I've been a frequent reader of this thread and I realize that most of the posters either prefer the Cartoon Network and Food Channel in HD to any major network programing or they live in a major market and get local HD off the SAT. Lucky them.

I however continue to get Mpeg-2 signals and would love to upgrade. But I really don't care for the Cartoon network and wouldn't trade my local HD content OTA to get them. I still don't understand a company that isn't willing to share the "solution" with long time customers that initiate a contact while somehow feeling that giving "inside information" to a couple of moderators of a web site is okay.

Okay, I don't get it.

Having said that, I'm bleary eyed from reading this and other blogs instead of actually watching HD content. There will probably be an OTA solution someday. But if D* can't let me know about it at CES, why wait. All the wonderful HD stations they are adding are predominately *not* actual HD programming. They're just up converted SD.

In addition, I get the impression (not like I could get info from D*) that the "solution" won't be for the H21, but for the HR21 only. Tell me insiders, is that true?

So, no public announcement at CES means that I will convert to Dish. By the time there's a solution I can actually buy, I will be far enough into the 18 month commitment that I can get a deal from D* to come back.


----------



## ShiningBengal

mossdaddy said:


> I've been a frequent reader of this thread and I realize that most of the posters either prefer the Cartoon Network and Food Channel in HD to any major network programing or they live in a major market and get local HD off the SAT. Lucky them.
> 
> I however continue to get Mpeg-2 signals and would love to upgrade. But I really don't care for the Cartoon network and wouldn't trade my local HD content OTA to get them. I still don't understand a company that isn't willing to share the "solution" with long time customers that initiate a contact while somehow feeling that giving "inside information" to a couple of moderators of a web site is okay.
> 
> Okay, I don't get it.
> 
> Having said that, I'm bleary eyed from reading this and other blogs instead of actually watching HD content. There will probably be an OTA solution someday. But if D* can't let me know about it at CES, why wait. All the wonderful HD stations they are adding are predominately *not* actual HD programming. They're just up converted SD.
> 
> In addition, I get the impression (not like I could get info from D*) that the "solution" won't be for the H21, but for the HR21 only. Tell me insiders, is that true?
> 
> So, no public announcement at CES means that I will convert to Dish. By the time there's a solution I can actually buy, I will be far enough into the 18 month commitment that I can get a deal from D* to come back.


I understand you feel now, but I'm not sure how you will feel when TiVo's lawsuit against Charlie's patent infringement knocks his Echostars out of the sky.

Everyone seems to pooh-pooh that possibility, but there's definitely an Elephant in the room. Hint: TiVo's lawyers handling their patent infringement case wouldn't be doing so on contingency if it didn't have merit.

Then again, DirecTV could have the same fate befall it in 2010 when their "immunity" agreement with TiVo runs out.:eek2:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mossdaddy said:


> I however continue to get Mpeg-2 signals and would love to upgrade. But I really don't care for the Cartoon network and wouldn't trade my local HD content OTA to get them. I still don't understand a company that isn't willing to share the "solution" with long time customers that initiate a contact while somehow feeling that giving "inside information" to a couple of moderators of a web site is okay....There will probably be an OTA solution someday. But if D* can't let me know about it at CES, why wait. All the wonderful HD stations they are adding are predominately *not* actual HD programming. They're just up converted SD.


We would all love to know things when WE want them, but that's just not the way life works.

To illustrate this point:

Before the new D10 DirecTV satellite was launched, there were literally dozens of threads and thousands of post speculating what any new HD channels offered would be, when, how much, etc....

What people may not know is that all this new HD equipment stuff has alot more to it than we all want to and probably need to know - design and internal testing, licensing contractual agreements with the manufacturers, testing cycles, distribution and training, physical warehousing logistics, and the like. In simple terms, lots of "stuff" has to be done just to launch a new piece of any equipment.

Historically, DirecTV has always chosen not to announce anything until there is certainly that it will be delivered. That's a prudent business practice that hundreds of other companies use as well. You can't be disappointed if you don't know what or when something is coming.

DirecTV is in a dynamic business, meaning things are constantly changing and they have to plan for and respond to change. This includes internal testing, field testing, and all the logistics that go with those tasks, as well as any legal contractual issues, etc.

We are actually very fortunate, in that DBSTalk is an excellent source of information that is at the edge of current information - we often learn of new things before the general public here. There have been plenty of "First Look" pieces here first.

We are also lvery ucky that we have Earl Bonovich leading many of the DirecTV communication efforts - the CE program, new information, etc. With his leadership, and based on a long track record of tremendously valuable efforts on all of our behalf, I would simply recommend we keep our eyes and ears open here to learn something specific when he is able to share something more about the OTA solution. Odds are we will be near the first to know thanks to Earl's link to DirecTV contacts on such things.


----------



## mossdaddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We would all love to know things when WE want them, but that's just not the way life works.
> 
> To illustrate this point:
> 
> Before the new D10 DirecTV satellite was launched, there were literally dozens of threads and thousands of post speculating what any new HD channels offered would be, when, how much, etc....
> 
> What people may not know is that all this new HD equipment stuff has alot more to it than we all want to and probably need to know - design and internal testing, licensing contractual agreements with the manufacturers, testing cycles, distribution and training, physical warehousing logistics, and the like. In simple terms, lots of "stuff" has to be done just to launch a new piece of any equipment.
> 
> Historically, DirecTV has always chosen not to announce anything until there is certainly that it will be delivered. That's a prudent business practice that hundreds of other companies use as well. You can't be disappointed if you don't know what or when something is coming.
> 
> DirecTV is in a dynamic business, meaning things are constantly changing and they have to plan for and respond to change. This includes internal testing, field testing, and all the logistics that go with those tasks, as well as any legal contractual issues, etc.
> 
> We are actually very fortunate, in that DBSTalk is an excellent source of information that is at the edge of current information - we often learn of new things before the general public here. There have been plenty of "First Look" pieces here first.
> 
> We are also lvery ucky that we have Earl Bonovich leading many of the DirecTV communication efforts - the CE program, new information, etc. With his leadership, and based on a long track record of tremendously valuable efforts on all of our behalf, I would simply recommend we keep our eyes and ears open here to learn something specific when he is able to share something more about the OTA solution. Odds are we will be near the first to know thanks to Earl's link to DirecTV contacts on such things.


It's amazing what you can sell to a fan. D* supposedly slips information to someone on the internet and you find that perfectly acceptable and normal. But they refuse to admit to that information and that makes sense to you as well.

I'm perfectly willing to accept that in general companies keep products secret until they are ready to announce them. But they don't general sneak the information out unless they are just trying to stall customers. (Microsoft for example)

Anyway, this thread is a waste of time. Good luck to all you believers.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mossdaddy, I'm sorry you feel that way. I know about DIRECTVs solution, I wanted to share with everyone here that it is coming. I wanted to share that it was dual tuner.

And DIRECTV released Earl and I to share just enough information to help people know that a plan is in place and a solution is coming. The plan is to completely satisfy anyone's OTA needs as well as an HR20 would.

I suspect that the solution will not be announced at CES, I'm sorry to say. DIRECTV rarely announces things of this nature before they are baked. For example, we couldn't talk about the HR21 until it was in production. 

I will say that you will not be even close to the end of an 18 month commitment when it comes out. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bwclark

mossdaddy said:


> " All the wonderful HD stations they are adding are predominately *not* actual HD programming. They're just up converted SD.


I would like to see more written about this...._in another thread _by you or anyone else. As a potential new customer waiting for the "OTA solution", I have cable and although I only have 10 HD channels they are excellent PQ. So, what's the deal on the DirectTV HD "Not" being HD?

Cable Guy


----------



## Doug Brott

bwclark said:


> I would like to see more written about this...._in another thread _by you or anyone else. As a potential new customer waiting for the "OTA solution", I have cable and although I only have 10 HD channels they are excellent PQ. So, what's the deal on the DirectTV HD "Not" being HD?


DIRECTV HD is the exact same HD that cable companies would be getting. The channel is a High Definition channels that is getting a full High Definition picture (including the black bars in some cases). What is at issue is that the content providers will often take standard definition programming, up-convert it to high definition format and then send it to DIRECTV. Some companies stretch the 4:3 picture to 16:9 while others try to maintain the original aspect ratio (OAR) which results in black bars.

Switch carriers may be a "feel good" move, but the competition will be showing the exact same HD .. just not as much of it .

And, since this particular topic is off-topic for this thread let's get :backtotop


----------



## ShiningBengal

bwclark said:


> I would like to see more written about this...._in another thread _by you or anyone else. As a potential new customer waiting for the "OTA solution", I have cable and although I only have 10 HD channels they are excellent PQ. So, what's the deal on the DirectTV HD "Not" being HD?


DirecTV is not totally responsible for PQ. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In other words, garbage in, garbage out. True, they used to compress their signal making the picture noticeably soft, even on HD broadcasts. From what I can see, with the new bandwidth associated with the new birds dedicated primarily to HD. that's a thing of the past. The OTA HD channels I receive are virtually identical to the LIL HD stations I receive from DirecTV's satellites.

Some of the new channels have truly phenomenal PQ, because for one, they started out live with very high quality PQ before they were uploaded to the satellites. There are, to be sure, many more new channels than you could fill with 100% high quality HD. Many are stretched, cropped, upconverted, etc.

The History Channel HD, and Bio HD are particularly guilty of this. Their saving grace is their programming, IMHO is very good overall. The Smithsonian Channel HD is nearly 100% very very high quality, but suffers from too little programming, meaning that you might see one or two new programs in a week.

But that's OK. There are other channels to watch in the meantime. 

->Edit-< Sorry Doug, posted as you were issuing the request to get back on topic.


----------



## bigmac94

Sixto said:


> This thread gets me thinking ... wonder what else could someday be added via USB 2.0 ... dreaming of a 3rd or 4th tuner


Personally I`m hoping its a MRV issue,the USB I mean


----------



## GP245

bhelton71 said:


> I think people mention the H20 ( non-DVR ) as having the later generation (5th) tuner. My personal theory is unless LG is building this (which is possible) then the addon will have a 4th gen design.
> 
> I can't remember exactly who (Earl maybe?) - but it has been mentioned the new device is not expected to work with the HR20 - which goes back to the first point - I would expect the new device to share the same tuner design as the HR20 currently has.


Once again, all of this is speculation. But, projecting that the "Add-On" will possibly have a 4th Generation chip is just too, too way out. 4th Generation technology goes back very far. My Sony HD SAT300 receiver, which I bought at the very end of its run, August 2004, has 4th Generation. My Sharp TV which is almost 1 1/2 years old has 5th Generation. And what a world of difference using the same Silver Sensor antenna split - one leg to the Sony and the other to the Sharp.

Peter Putman, a highly respected evaluator/tester of all things HD, in his recent review of the Zenith DTT900 ATSC Receiver (converts analog O-T-A to Digital)
talking about the quality of O-T-A reception, mentions that the chip is either 
Gen 5, or possibly by the time this Receiver is on the market, it could be Gen 6!

Even with some of Direct's idiocy that we've had to live through, I really doubt that the "Add-On's" chip would be older than Gen 5. Only my guess.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

ShiningBengal said:


> That will work just fine if you don't want to record OTA. And if you happen to be watching two OTA sporting events that happen to be on at the same time, you will have to switch back and forth, or just watch the one you are happy with. And of course, you will constantly be fiddling with your input selection. You will not have two switch the input cables themselves, but you will have to grab your remote and tell your TV which input you want to watch. And don't forget your TV guide, since you don't get that OTA either. Ditto for a $50 eBay ATSC purchased OTA receiver.
> 
> Not a real good solution compared with an HR20.
> 
> By the way, there is no need whatever for NTSC tuners. In any market you are able to get HD OTA, the stations will also be broadcasting standard definition OTA on ATSC (digital) sub-channels. I live in Minneapolis and can currently receive all 15 local TV channels digitally. No NTSC necessary to get SD.


Guess that is why I have a VCR hooked up to it. Oh well, I guess the solution will be fine when it arrives. 

EDIT
Ya know, the VCR doesn't have any tuners in it. But it sure was cheap!


----------



## ShiningBengal

Spanky_Partain said:


> Guess that is why I have a VCR hooked up to it. Oh well, I guess the solution will be fine when it arrives.
> 
> EDIT
> Ya know, the VCR doesn't have any tuners in it. But it sure was cheap!


What's a VCR? Isn't that a 240 line limit on resolution? Must make your 1080i display really shine!:lol:


----------



## arob

ShiningBengal said:


> They will not sell you an H20. The only time you can get an H20 from DirecTV is if you need an under-warranty replacement--and even then, you have to be talking to the right people.


Using the methods detailed by other forum members I've just had my second HR20 delivered. I've a feeling I have a third on the way later this week and maybe even a fourth since I've made so many requests and D* doesn't have one hand knowing what the other is doing.

Emailing customer support is the ticket as well as dealing with the escalation group. Front line CSR's are a waste of time. In apologetic email responses the escalation group has always referenced my 12 years as a customer so maybe that counts for something.

Bottom line - you CAN get the HR20 from Directv you just have to be patient and work the system. No you shouldn't have to but that's the way it is.


----------



## David Ortiz

DIRECTV AM21 OFF-AIR TUNER is on display at the DIRECTV booth at the Venetian.

USB connection to HR-21. Sits right on top or below the HR-21.


----------



## RegGeek

David Ortiz said:


> DIRECTV AM21 OFF-AIR TUNER is on display at the DIRECTV booth at the Venetian.
> 
> USB connection to HR-21. Sits right on top or below the HR-21.


David,
GREAT scoop. Please tell us all that you took a picture!


----------



## bhelton71

Well I was wrong - I assumed something the size of the HDHomeRun but Earls initial description is much bigger.

AM21 - ATSC Tuner Add for the HR21 line
-) The unit is going to be the same width and depth as the HR21. 
-) It is approx 1" high 
-) Same Gloss Black finish, and molding as the HR21
-) USB Connectivity to the HR21
-) Passthrough power supply... so one cord, for both the AM21 and HR21


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RegGeek said:


> David,
> GREAT scoop. Please tell us all that you took a picture!


We will have pictures later on tonight....


----------



## RAD

If this was answered and I missed it, sorry. Will this also be made available for the H21 STB's or will the H20 line still be made available for folks with no or missing some HD LIL's???

Thanks for this info, please let us know if they come out with any details on pricing/availability.


----------



## bhelton71

RAD said:


> If this was answered and I missed it, sorry. Will this also be made available for the H21 STB's or will the H20 line still be made available for folks with no or missing some HD LIL's???
> 
> Thanks for this info, please let us know if they come out with any details on pricing/availability.


Earl is going to ask tonight - wasn't sure today.


----------



## ulbonado

Tom Robertson said:


> I will say that you will not be even close to the end of an 18 month commitment when it comes out.


But will it be out before PBS HD is available over the sat? That's all I want....


----------



## Drew2k

bhelton71 said:


> Well I was wrong - I assumed something the size of the HDHomeRun but Earls initial description is much bigger.
> 
> AM21 - ATSC Tuner Add for the HR21 line
> -) The unit is going to be the same width and depth as the HR21.
> -) It is approx 1" high
> -) Same Gloss Black finish, and molding as the HR21
> -) USB Connectivity to the HR21
> -) Passthrough power supply... so one cord, for both the AM21 and HR21


I was wrong too .. I was guessing it would be the size of a USB hub, but having a device the same size as the HR21 makes for a much more aesthetically pleasing solution. Nice job DIRECTV!


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> I was wrong too .. I was guessing it would be the size of a USB hub, but having a device the same size as the HR21 makes for a much more aesthetically pleasing solution. Nice job DIRECTV!


Aethetics would seem to be good. Kudo's to the aesthetics design team. Hopefully, the performance will match.

But as we know all too well, the software is not always up to the task, out-of-the-box. That is typical, almost expected.

I hope that the bugs can be squashed in weeks, not months, however, and that they will not release it to market before it has been thoroughly beta tested and is ready for prime time.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> Aethetics would seem to be good. Kudo's to the aesthetics design team. Hopefully, the performance will match.
> 
> But as we know all too well, the software is not always up to the task, out-of-the-box. That is typical, almost expected.
> 
> I hope that the bugs can be squashed in weeks, not months, however, and that they will not release it to market before it has been thoroughly beta tested and is ready for prime time.


I'm going to have to start calling you Debbie Downer! 

The solution isn't even in user's hands yet, and you're already demanding bug fixes. :nono2:


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> I'm going to have to start calling you Debbie Downer!
> 
> The solution isn't even in user's hands yet, and you're already demanding bug fixes. :nono2:


I didn't think I demanded anything.

I gave kudo's to DirecTV for something they did right. I'm withholding unequivocal approval until the device is demonstrated...and it works. I don't think that's anything like a demand.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, y' know.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think I should have an opportunity to playtest the AM21 very shortly. All I can tell you, it's not what I expected. I thought it would be a dongle-type device, but now that I see it I'm more than confident that they did it right. There's good room for airflow, there's the passthrough power so it's not dependent on USB power, and it looks great with HR21.


----------



## Drew2k

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think I should have an opportunity to playtest the AM21 very shortly. All I can tell you, it's not what I expected. I thought it would be a dongle-type device, but now that I see it I'm more than confident that they did it right. There's good room for airflow, there's the passthrough power so it's not dependent on USB power, and it looks great with HR21.


All good news, and the appearance gives it WAF too...

Stuart, any idea if it supports Clear-QAM?


----------



## bhelton71

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think I should have an opportunity to playtest the AM21 very shortly. All I can tell you, it's not what I expected. I thought it would be a dongle-type device, but now that I see it I'm more than confident that they did it right. There's good room for airflow, there's the passthrough power so it's not dependent on USB power, and it looks great with HR21.


I am guessing they probably won't let you pop the top off for a peek ? :lol:


----------



## ShiningBengal

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think I should have an opportunity to playtest the AM21 very shortly. All I can tell you, it's not what I expected. I thought it would be a dongle-type device, but now that I see it I'm more than confident that they did it right. There's good room for airflow, there's the passthrough power so it's not dependent on USB power, and it looks great with HR21.


These are all good signs, but no one buys an electronic equipment solely on appearance...at least I hope not. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade with my comments that it is a little early to strike up the band. For all anyone knows, it may be simply a mockup at this point. I love lauding praises on praiseworthy efforts, but the easiest part of building this unit is the case. So I will join in praises for the box, based only on the comments of those who have seen it. There is nothing else yet to praise, except perhaps that it isn't vaporware.

I appreciate aesthetics as much as anyone, but the add-on tuner box doesn't actually improve the looks of the HR21, which I think would look just fine with the tuner inside it's own box. What's inside that new sexy case _and how well it works _is what everyone, including myself, wants to know. If it's all good, well, then it's all good. If not, who cares?


----------



## Ruffread

I haven't read all the notes, but I wonder who the manufacturer is. Wouldn't it be great if it were LG, whom I believe has the best tuner going.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I will ask about Clear QAM, but that would be unlikely as it isn't really the intention of the unit. It's a display and I can touch it but the odds of getting near it with a screwdriver are low. 

As far as the PCTV solution I will ask about Mac support... but of course there's always Parallels for stuff like that.


----------



## houskamp

Stuart Sweet said:


> I will ask about Clear QAM, but that would be unlikely as it isn't really the intention of the unit. It's a display and I can touch it but the odds of getting near it with a screwdriver are low.
> 
> As far as the PCTV solution I will ask about Mac support... but of course there's always Parallels for stuff like that.


chicken :lol: just walk up there and pop the top off!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> These are all good signs, but no one buys an electronic equipment solely on appearance...at least I hope not. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade with my comments that it is a little early to strike up the band. For all anyone knows, it may be simply a mockup at this point. I love lauding praises on praiseworthy efforts, but the easiest part of building this unit is the case. So I will join in praises for the box, based only on the comments of those who have seen it. There is nothing else yet to praise, except perhaps that it isn't vaporware.
> 
> I appreciate aesthetics as much as anyone, but the add-on tuner box doesn't actually improve the looks of the HR21, which I think would look just fine with the tuner inside it's own box. What's inside that new sexy case _and how well it works _is what everyone, including myself, wants to know. If it's all good, well, then it's all good. If not, who cares?


While I can't be for sure (at this point) that the unit that is CES isn't a mock up..... I can assure you (and others), the unit does exist... and is functional.


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## hdtvfan0001

houskamp said:


> chicken :lol: just walk up there and pop the top off!


See....you should have taken SMOKE with you...he could have had time to exchange all sorts of stories with DirecTV on the use of the SWM.... :lol:


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## Tom Robertson

Pace is the manufacturer of the AM21.


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## aramus8

ShiningBengal said:


> These are all good signs, but no one buys an electronic equipment solely on appearance...at least I hope not. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade with my comments that it is a little early to strike up the band. For all anyone knows, it may be simply a mockup at this point. I love lauding praises on praiseworthy efforts, but the easiest part of building this unit is the case. So I will join in praises for the box, based only on the comments of those who have seen it. There is nothing else yet to praise, except perhaps that it isn't vaporware.
> 
> I appreciate aesthetics as much as anyone, but the add-on tuner box doesn't actually improve the looks of the HR21, which I think would look just fine with the tuner inside it's own box. What's inside that new sexy case _and how well it works _is what everyone, including myself, wants to know. If it's all good, well, then it's all good. If not, who cares?


If you make it bigger and it has a sharp appearance, you can charge more!!!


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## Tom Robertson

At this point, now that we have announcements of the AM21, I think we can close this thread of speculation. 

Thanks everyone for the discussion. I'm glad we can finally talk about the real product.

Cheers,
Tom


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