# Anyone own an electric car?



## dmspen

My manager used to drive a Dodge Durango that has the largest possible engine in it. He was spending about $350/month on gas using the Durango solely as a commuter - it's only 22 miles to work (he lives down the street from me).

Last week he leased a Ford Focus EV. Lease is $299/month and he can charge it free at work. It also qualifies for a white carpool sticker. And he gets a $2500 Ca incentive rebate.

Has anyone here jumped into the electric technology of cars?

The Focus is a slick little machine (dependent on taste). The high res dashboard and info screens are really nice. Seats are comfy, and the overall styling is kind of rakish jelly bean style (with an Aston Martin looking grill!)

He says it's very fast and handles great (of course he was driving a Durango!)

Chime in! I may be heading that way...


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## 4HiMarks

Before you buy, look into maintenance costs and reliability. With a lease, it isn't as much of an issue, but there are likely not going to be any independent auto repair shops with the training to fix one of those, so you will have to take it to a dealership for even the most minor repairs. Who is responsible for the cost of new batteries when they go? how long do they last and how much are replacements?


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## dpeters11

I don't, but Ford is a big advertiser on the podcasts I listen to, so they get talked about. One thing they do mention is the great parking at LAX.

One thing that interests me, and apparently a reason they were a bit slower bringing it to the market is that they wanted to get to the point where they could switch between gas, hybrid and electric models of cars on the fly and on the same line. Probably a smart thing to do.


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## billsharpe

We're both retired and as a practical matter only need one car.

An all-electric vehicle won't work because of the limited range of the car. We would have problems visiting our son 60 miles away. And a vacation trip out-of-state is out of the question.

A hybrid might work, but we only put about 8,000 miles a year on our current car, so the cost of gas really doesn't have that much impact on us, despite living in Calfornia.


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## dennisj00

Yes, we're almost a year into our 2012 Nissan Leaf and couldn't be more pleased. Knowing when we purchased (leased) it that ~85 miles was a realistic range vs. the advertised 100 max. There are some that have gotten trips in excess of 100 but you'd have to drive unrealisticly for that.

I've only charged away from home once and that was just an experiment - not needed.

It's a fun car, peppy and take-off to match most any sports car, quiet and $0 maintainence. The dealer continues to send us coupons for maintenance and oil changes! (no oil, no transmission, regen braking that will probably never wear out the brake pads, etc)

We don't drive a lot of miles and our KWHr charge of ~$0.105 gives us around 2.6 cents a mile.

A friend down the street drives 80 miles a day, recharges at work --the car pays for itself.

Check out the forum, mynissanleaf.


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## dennisj00

Our second car is a Toyota Highlander Hybrid. . . 2007. Still no problem with batteries and nothing major from their earlier Prius' line.

I have to drive it once a week to get the spider webs off of it!


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## trdrjeff

CNG is so much more intriguing to me. Honda & CLNE are giving away $3,000 CNG card with a new Civic CNG (In California) so that would cover your first 30-40k miles ($2-3/GGE)

Also its primarily domestic energy, clean, no batteries to dispose of.


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## dennisj00

As I understand it, you can get a home CNG 'station' for around $1000, assuming you have natural gas delivery. Around here, it's about a $1.50 per gallon equivalent and the mileage of the vehicle is about the same.

For that cost, my Leaf is getting 57 mpg.

For the $3.80 per gallon at the pump, my Leaf is getting 146 mpg.

We did get a $7500 tax credit off the top of the lease. I haven't checked into CNG credits.

CNG does make lots of sense for any fleet vehicles. I know Freightliner is making CNG trucks and even the car conversion is about $1000 or less per vehicle.


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## Davenlr

trdrjeff said:


> CNG is so much more intriguing to me. Honda & CLNE are giving away $3,000 CNG card with a new Civic CNG (In California) so that would cover your first 30-40k miles ($2-3/GGE)
> 
> Also its primarily domestic energy, clean, no batteries to dispose of.


They produce that stuff around here. All the gas companies trucks and cars are CNG. If one is in front of you on the highway, I hope you like sulfur, because they STINK.


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## wingrider01

Took deliever on one of the new Ford C-Max SEL hybrids about a few weeks ago, stopped in the gas station for the first time this morning, I use a little less then a galleon a day in gas - my coummute is jsut a tad under 49 miles round trip. Seats 5 and the SEL with 301A package has all the toys a dyed in the wool terchie would want.


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## trdrjeff

AFAIK there are no longer any Fed Tax Incentives for CNG. You get free HOV access here in California. 

The big question becomes when does your state start billing road taxes for these new fuel delivery systems that forgo them? 

As far as smell you're not going to get any from a vehicle burning it anymore than your stovetop


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## BubblePuppy

trdrjeff said:


> The big question becomes when does your state start billing road taxes for these new fuel delivery systems that forgo them?


The states won't call it "road taxes", it will be called yearly "Impact Fees", like Florida has when you bring in a car from out of state and register it ( a one time IF).


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## trdrjeff

But it is coming. People are buying these vehicles assuming they can get GGE for $1.50 in their home. Or whatever their Electricity Rate is, while the average gallons of gas adds in 50 cents in taxes. 

I would also expect that to increase once you factor in the wear and tear on the nations hwy system = miles driven not MPG.


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## BubblePuppy

trdrjeff said:


> But it is coming. People are buying these vehicles assuming they can get GGE for $1.50 in their home. Or whatever their Electricity Rate is, while the average gallons of gas adds in 50 cents in taxes.
> 
> I would also expect that to increase once you factor in the wear and tear on the nations hwy system = miles driven not MPG.


If the government could get away with taxing the air we breath it would. Nothing shall go untaxed.


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## Nick

Has anyone calculated the total cost of going all-electric or hybrid -- the special charger, electricity used, battery maintence/replacement over time, and likely service panel wiring upgrade? Even after the initial investment, there will be ongoing costs to be factored in that is (seemingly) being glossed over.


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## TBlazer07

Yea, I have an electric Corvette. I let my grandkids and her friend use it.


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## dennisj00

Nick said:


> Has anyone calculated the total cost of going all-electric or hybrid -- the special charger, electricity used, battery maintence/replacement over time, and likely service panel wiring upgrade? Even after the initial investment, there will be ongoing costs to be factored in that is (seemingly) being glossed over.


I did a lot of those calculations before I bought a hybrid in 2007 and then the Leaf in 2011 and basically concluded that I don't want to be sending my money to countries that are trying to destroy our way of life.

Priuses from the early 2000s still have no battery replacement problems. Used batteries from all electrics can be recycled and used in lower capacity requirements like solar panels, substations, etc. and have a second life.

I did have to add a sub-panel and home charger for the Leaf . . out of pocket was about $600 after rebates. Thank you all for your contribution!

We don't drive it a lot since we both work at home but a neighbor down the street replaced a $400 a month gas bill for commuting. . . the car basically pays for itself.

We're paying about 2.5 cents per mile for electricity and 0 maintenance $ for the car. I'm sure the overall analysis isn't that positive, but there are lots of hidden costs in gas powered vehicles that we'll all end up paying for.

Fortunately I've never had to analyze the overall cost of a car. . . in fact, I've considered lately selling the hybrid that sits in the driveway 90% of the time and renting a car when we need to travel outside the range of the Leaf.


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## wingrider01

Nick said:


> Has anyone calculated the total cost of going all-electric or hybrid -- the special charger, electricity used, battery maintence/replacement over time, and likely service panel wiring upgrade? Even after the initial investment, there will be ongoing costs to be factored in that is (seemingly) being glossed over.


Can only speak for the C-Max Hybrid, but the all electric version is covered in the manuals. I did a lot of research prior to commiting to the C-Max

The standard charger is 120 Volt and only requires a dedicated 20 Amp circuit. The optional is the 240 volt that requires a special circuit. The main difference is charge time, the 240 volt will fully recharge the car in about 4 hours

The batteries are covered for 8 years / 100K, average replacement cost is about 3,600 minus the core credit which can by up to 1,500. There are documented reports out there of 300K Ford Escape Hybrid taxi's and a few 215K Prius's

Have had my C-Max for 5 days now, my majority of driving is to and from work at 60 miles round trip, gas gauge has not come off the full mark, the trip readout summary on the dashboard shows I have used .7 gallons of gas so far, had a Ford Escape prior and would be down close to a 1/2 tank for the same 3 days.

I do keep a detailed spreadsheet on my cars because of leasing, if the thread is still going at the end of a full month of driving I will post the comparision between the Ford Escape and C-Max.


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## djlong

Since April, I've kept track of all expenses (except insurance) for my 2002 Camry on an iPhone App (GasCubby). Including the recent (and rare) $800 repair bill (brakes, tires and nother normal wear and tear), I've spent $2,640.56 (I paid off the loan last year so there's no monthly car payment in there). The gas part of the bill is $1,485.87 - averaging $7.63/day and my driving is overwhelmingly my 60-mile round-trip commute. 29.3 MPG.

Right now I can't afford to spend $400-$500/mo to save $100+/mo on gas. When the Camry finally starts to fall apart, though, I'm looking at something like the C-Max plug-in hybrid or the Chevy Volt.

There are things people never expected in some of the acid tests (like when hybrids were turned into taxis). Like ho regenerative braking seems to TRIPLE the lifespan of your brakes. I kinda like the idea of only having to go through that major expense ONE THIRD as often.. Reduced wear on the engines so the timing belt or water pump doesn't break down as often..

Of course when I buy a car, my habit is that I keep the car until it just can't perform anymore. I don't buy cars "on a schedule". If someone is more into buying a new car every 3 years, their decision would most likely be different.


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## dmspen

According to my manager, his Focus batteries have a full replacement guarantee for 10 years. I don't know what failure would be required to get them replaced. Do they lose their ability to hold a charge after 5 years?

There's no maintenance, just normal wear and tear of mechanical parts and electronic failures. 

I just calculated my last months gas cost and it was $245. That's basically commuting 50 miles round trip plus a trip to choir practice and an occassional trip to the store. My car is 14 years old with about 205,000 miles.

The $299 lease is the fuly loaded version. Chop off some for non-leather. That's about the only option.

It sure is tempting...


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## dennisj00

A couple of things affect battery life. Extreme heat, extreme cold, rapid recharging.

A 60 mile commute is perfect for the range you need, even more perfect if you can find a free charging station at work. Most all the charging stations in our area are free.

Nissan estimates about a 10% battery degradation, but users are seeing less than that.

When I bought my hybrid in 2007, they mentioned a possible battery change at 80k. I'm at 75k and as mentioned above, dealers have seen 150k or more.

I'd do it!


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## davring

Battery replacement are always going to be the biggest existence in these vehicles. When you go to sell your 6 or 7 year old Leaf, how much could it be worth if the buyer has to consider a 12 to 15 thousand dollar battery replacement in a couple of years?


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## wingrider01

davring said:


> Battery replacement are always going to be the biggest existence in these vehicles. When you go to sell your 6 or 7 year old Leaf, how much could it be worth if the buyer has to consider a 12 to 15 thousand dollar battery replacement in a couple of years?


12 to 15 thousand? replacemtn is around 3600 minus the core recovery rebate. At 6 or 7 years the batteries are still under warrenty for failure


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## dennisj00

Another reason I leased the Leaf for 3 years (39 months) . . . Battery technology should be at another stage by then.

And it's almost official. . . we took delivery on Oct. 25 last year. So at 1 year, $0 in gas, $0 in maintenance dollars.

I did have to use my own compressor to top off the air in the tires once. It does have the sensors / dashboard alert.


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## davring

wingrider01 said:


> 12 to 15 thousand? replacement is around 3600 minus the core recovery rebate. At 6 or 7 years the batteries are still under warranty for failure


Even if we use your figure, and my research shows a much higher cost, at seven years old the replacement battery pack exceeds the value of the car.

I certainly wouldn't even consider the purchase, unless the price was minimal, if I had to invest that much money to keep it on the road. So, you as the owner, have a car that is essentially worthless unless you buy batteries for it.


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## dennisj00

The leasing companies have enough confidence to price the car and make their money. Your research may show differently - there's lots of good / bad information out there - but there are no horrow stories about battery life.

Check the price of a used Prius.


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## wingrider01

davring said:


> Even if we use your figure, and my research shows a much higher cost, at seven years old the replacement battery pack exceeds the value of the car.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't even consider the purchase, unless the price was minimal, if I had to invest that much money to keep it on the road. So, you as the owner, have a car that is essentially worthless unless you buy batteries for it.


When I was getting the reverse camera installed on my C-Max I was talking to the Shop Manager on costs, she looked up the cost of the replacement battery tray and the labor hours needed, minus the core recover rebate the cost to replace the battery tray that is covered by warranty for 8 yrs / 100,000 miles came nowhere close to your researched figure.

Consumer reports even agreed back in 2008 for the Prius

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2008/10/prius-battery.html


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## dmspen

Well, I did it. I signed a 3 year lease on a 2012 Ford Focus Fusion EV.

I pick it up this afternoon in time to catch the rain! It's pretty amazing how far these cars have come in a few short years. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next 3 years. Maybe I'll buy one next time!


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## yosoyellobo

I would love to get one but they are out of my price range. Maybe when they get in the 15k to 20k.


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## dennisj00

Congratulations, dmspen! I think you'll really like it.

It's official, I had my 'annual' checkup (free) and $0 in maintenance for the year and negligible capacity loss on the batteries.


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## wingrider01

dmspen said:


> Well, I did it. I signed a 3 year lease on a 2012 Ford Focus Fusion EV.
> 
> I pick it up this afternoon in time to catch the rain! It's pretty amazing how far these cars have come in a few short years. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next 3 years. Maybe I'll buy one next time!


those are nice, I looked at them when I was shopping around but the new Ford C-MAX caught and held my attention, been driving one for less then a month.

The power and acceleration of the C-MAX is amazing for a hybrid, not to mention getting 41 miles to the gallon, big difference from my 7 mile to the gallon H1, still getting used to the smaller car, a big adjustment for me, let alone being able to go through narrow city streets.


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## dmspen

yosoyellobo said:


> I would love to get one but they are out of my price range. Maybe when they get in the 15k to 20k.


Consider my car. If I bought it, with Ford incentives, it would be about $28,000. California has a $2500 incentive program. Feds give you $7500 off your taxes. Now you're down to $18000.

I went from $210/month avg for gas to $0 (charge at work).

A 5 year loan at 2% would be about $322/mo. SO you could end up with a new car for about $100/month for 5 years (add $30-60/month if you charge at home)


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## yosoyellobo

dmspen said:


> Consider my car. If I bought it, with Ford incentives, it would be about $28,000. California has a $2500 incentive program. Feds give you $7500 off your taxes. Now you're down to $18000.
> 
> I went from $210/month avg for gas to $0 (charge at work).
> 
> A 5 year loan at 2% would be about $322/mo. SO you could end up with a new car for about $100/month for 5 years (add $30-60/month if you charge at home)


In my case it would be $25500 as I don't paid taxes being retired. Even the $322 is a little beyond my reach.


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## dennisj00

The Federal rebate can come off the top of the lease.  The Nissan dealer filed that.

Since it's a tax credit, I think you could get a refund even with 0 taxes paid.

It really becomes a 'free car' if you commute 40-80 miles a day.


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## wingrider01

dmspen said:


> Consider my car. If I bought it, with Ford incentives, it would be about $28,000. California has a $2500 incentive program. Feds give you $7500 off your taxes. Now you're down to $18000.
> 
> I went from $210/month avg for gas to $0 (charge at work).
> 
> A 5 year loan at 2% would be about $322/mo. SO you could end up with a new car for about $100/month for 5 years (add $30-60/month if you charge at home)


the 7500 fed rebate expired unless you are talking on pure electrics and not convential gas/electric hybrids

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-ins-and-outs-of-electric-vehicle-tax-credits.html


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## dmspen

wingrider01 said:


> the 7500 fed rebate expired unless you are talking on pure electrics and not convential gas/electric hybrids
> 
> http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-ins-and-outs-of-electric-vehicle-tax-credits.html


Yes, my Ford Focus is 100% electric, so that was my reference.

I also forgot to mention the CarPool stickers!


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## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> The leasing companies have enough confidence to price the car and make their money. Your research may show differently - there's lots of good / bad information out there - but there are no horrow stories about battery life.
> 
> Check the price of a used Prius.


A friend of mine got a Prius when they came out. He just traded it in for a new one. He's a very good auto mechanic and he's had no problems with either car. I just know he wanted to take it apart, but never had a reason to. Problem is, I can't fit in the damn thing. Height discrimination is a terrible thing to go thru life with.... :lol:

Rich


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## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Congratulations, dmspen! I think you'll really like it.
> 
> It's official, I had my 'annual' checkup (free) and $0 in maintenance for the year and negligible capacity loss on the batteries.


How tall are you?

Rich


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## dennisj00

For what it's worth, I'm 5'6. The salesman was over 6', about 250# and fit comfortably.

Tommy Burleson (NCSU Center in the 70's) is 7'4" and drove a VW beetle.


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## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> For what it's worth, I'm 5'6. The salesman was over 6', about 250# and fit comfortably.


You can't begin to imagine what it's like to be tall. When I graduated from high school, every car I got into I had to pull the seat up. Not the same now. Now that Cadillac and Lincoln are only making small cars, I don't know where to go to get another car.



> Tommy Burleson (NCSU Center in the 70's) is 7'4" and drove a VW beetle.


I'm a bit over 6'4" and I had a '69 Bug and had to pull the seat up. Not so with the new Bugs. We used to drive from Norfolk to NYC every weekend we were in port in a Bug. Used to put six thin people in the car or five if there were a couple heavy guys going. Once we packed 7 guys in (one sat between the driver and passenger seats. Horribly uncomfortable, but we did it. Try that with one of the new Bugs. I was really disappointed with the new Bugs.

Rich


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## Rich

Nick said:


> Has anyone calculated the total cost of going all-electric or hybrid -- the special charger, electricity used, battery maintence/replacement over time, and likely service panel wiring upgrade? Even after the initial investment, there will be ongoing costs to be factored in that is (seemingly) being glossed over.


I've never seen anything like what you ask for, but my friend the car mechanic had to do practically nothing to his first Prius. I know he was dying to tear into that sucker, but he never had a reason to. Maybe his new one will give him a chance to work on it.

Rich


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## Cholly

Article in the media this week considering just gas costs and difference in price between conventional cars and electrics breakeven point is six years


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## djlong

The part that's hard to factor in is depreciation. Will electric cars hold their value better? If so, the breakeven point will be earlier.

Now, the Prius has been out for a LONG time and we've yet to hear of a flood of returned batteries the way the detractors keep crying.

But I just replaced some of the brakes on my car to the tune of a few hundred dollars. The idea of tripling the number of miles between brake jobs appeals to me (Prius-based taxis in SF found they needed new brakes 1/3 as often because the regenerative braking systems that pump energy back into the battery took a lot of the wear and tear off of the conventional disc brakes)


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## dmspen

djlong said:


> The part that's hard to factor in is depreciation. Will electric cars hold their value better? If so, the breakeven point will be earlier.
> 
> Now, the Prius has been out for a LONG time and we've yet to hear of a flood of returned batteries the way the detractors keep crying.
> 
> But I just replaced some of the brakes on my car to the tune of a few hundred dollars. The idea of tripling the number of miles between brake jobs appeals to me (Prius-based taxis in SF found they needed new brakes 1/3 as often because the regenerative braking systems that pump energy back into the battery took a lot of the wear and tear off of the conventional disc brakes)


These are some of the reasons I'm leasing! BTW, the original year Prius had a battery recall. My step mom got an original year Prius from her son and a few months later had the battery pack replaced through the recall.


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## dmspen

One week in and everything is going smoothly. I use abouta little less than a 1/3 of a tank? Cells? Charge?...charge to get to work. I plug in to a 110v outlet in the back of the parking lot (extra exercise getting to the building). I get almost to a full charge by the time I leave.

I do notice that charge rates are somewhat temperature dependent - as expected. 

The friggin' displays in the car are a little distracting because I keep playing with them!

So far so good!


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## dennisj00

Free charging at work, your 'fuel' costs will be next to ZERO!! Sweet!!


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## Matt9876

My next new car will be all electric, I figure about four more years till I'm ready for this.

I would love to build my own electric car but since the wife will be driving I would like it to be as nice and trouble free as possible.


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