# Could the BETA and VHS war be happening again?



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

When I look at the wars going on between tablets and cells phones, I am suddenly reminded of the BETA vs VHS war. Sony released the first BETA machine in 1975 with only a handful of companies manufacturing them. Sony kept tight control over the technology with most users saying it was technically superior. In 1977, JVC intruduced the VHS format. JVC licensed the technology to over 40 companies and sold the decks for cheap.

Now, here we are in 2011. See any similiarities? 

BETA = APPLE
VHS = ANDROID

If Apple doesn't do something soon, they will be left in the dust especially in the tablet market. Sure, there will always be loyal Apple followers but I wonder even how long that will last.

Interesting to say the least.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

It's a reach, especially the part about Apple being technically superior.


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

Apple always seems to find a way to come out of it. Android may take over the lion share of the market but I think there is far to many loyal customers that they will need to worry.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Chris Blount said:


> When I look at the wars going on between tablets and cells phones, I am suddenly reminded of the BETA vs VHS war. Sony released the first BETA machine in 1975 with only a handful of companies manufacturing them. Sony kept tight control over the technology with most users saying it was technically superior. In 1977, JVC intruduced the VHS format. JVC licensed the technology to over 40 companies and sold the decks for cheap.
> 
> Now, here we are in 2011. See any similiarities?
> 
> ...


Ooooow, man, you put a hurt in my day! Very interesting comparison, and I hope to heavens it doesn't pan out that way.

One major difference I see is that the same or similar content is/will be widely available for both platforms, and you don't have to commit to a change in hardware to get content.

Hope there are other distinguishing differences, but my brain is on vacation now.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Laxguy said:


> Ooooow, man, you put a hurt in my day! Very interesting comparison, and I hope to heavens it doesn't pan out that way.
> 
> One major difference I see is that the same or similar content is/will be widely available for both platforms, and you don't have to commit to a change in hardware to get content.
> 
> Hope there are other distinguishing differences, but my brain is on vacation now.


Right, the biggest difference is that there won't be a ton of content that is exclusive to either "format". Android has Flash, Google Talk and a few other platform specific biggies and Apple has Facetime, and some applications unique to it.

Most of the web (flash excluded) is viewable on either one, you can get a Kindle or Nook application to get your e-books on either or both, etc. It could be argued that Apple has iTunes as an advantage right now but there are options for Android and when (if) GoogleMusic is released that should nullify any advantage there. I think the big challenge for developers is going to be making games and other applications (like a Facetime / GoogleTalk or Words With Friends for example) that will work on both platforms so it won't matter what device your friends have, you'll still be able to play games with them, video chat, etc.

I won't get into the argument on which one is "Technically Superior" because I think it's irrelevant to the discussion the OP brought up.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

It's an interesting concept but the world today is quite different. In the end there's an argument that it wasn't the multitude of manufacturers but the software that made VHS the market leader. You see... you couldn't get porn on Beta.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> It's an interesting concept but the world today is quite different. In the end there's an argument that it wasn't the multitude of manufacturers but the software that made VHS the market leader. You see... you couldn't get porn on Beta.


That reminds me of this "The Android Phone is for Porn" parody! :lol:


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

The problem with the Betamax format was in the content available, not the hardware. Apps are the content equivalent of the VCR era and Apple has them. I don't see the iPad as the Sony Betamax of this decade.

I do think there is going to be limit to the "personal" tablet market and Apple dominates that already. Then there is the apps tie-in between the iPhone and the iPad to help retain a customer base.

Android tablets will do ok in the personal tablet market because of the OS openness and many PC owners wouldn't touch anything Apple. Android tablets also will have a place in the business market that the iPad will never have (particularly because of it's dependency on iTunes for synching).

But if Microsoft creates a usable OS for a tablet that interfaces well with Win PC's, the business market may be dominated by those tablets.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

"phrelin" said:


> Android tablets will do ok in the personal tablet market because of the OS openness and many PC owners wouldn't touch anything Apple. Android tablets also will have a place in the business market that the iPad will never have (particularly because of it's dependency on iTunes for synching).


Tell that to all the Fortune 500 business switching over to iPads, along with the many small business doctors, lawyers, etc. already using and loving the iPad.

Also, iTunes isn't required in a corporate/enterprise environment. Specialty enterprise apps can be installed via the iPhone Configuration Utility, or on a corporate web server accessed wirelessly and installed automatically for authorized UDIDs.


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## gphvid (Jun 19, 2007)

LameLefty said:


> Tell that to all the Fortune 500 business switching over to iPads, along with the many small business doctors, lawyers, etc. already using and loving the iPad.
> 
> Also, iTunes isn't required in a corporate/enterprise environment. Specialty enterprise apps can be installed via the iPhone Configuration Utility, or on a corporate web server accessed wirelessly and installed automatically for authorized UDIDs.


I remember when alot of companies brought in Apples before the PC really made any headway, and then those companies switched due to the ease in integrating systems in a PC environment and cheaper, easier and more accessible support. Companies currently going ipad might switch for the same reason once Android establishes itself and has wide support of suppliers and programmers. Apple's arrogance may just hurt them if they are not careful here.


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

gphvid said:


> I remember when alot of companies brought in Apples before the PC really made any headway, and then those companies switched due to the ease in integrating systems in a PC environment and cheaper, easier and more accessible support. Companies currently going ipad might switch for the same reason once Android establishes itself and has wide support of suppliers and programmers. Apple's arrogance may just hurt them if they are not careful here.


That's what I was thinking. Sort of the same thing Sony did with Beta.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

"gphvid" said:


> I remember when alot of companies brought in Apples before the PC really made any headway, and then those companies switched due to the ease in integrating systems in a PC environment and cheaper, easier and more accessible support. Companies currently going ipad might switch for the same reason once Android establishes itself and has wide support of suppliers and programmers. Apple's arrogance may just hurt them if they are not careful here.


Well, hope springs eternal (at least for everyone looking to knock Apple ), but in only one year of availability, iPad revenues alone, if a separate entity, would place it in the top 1/3 of the Fortune 500. A LOT of people are buying them, across a huge spectrum of businesses and types of individuals. Android tablets have a long way to go and high bar to reach to even consider the platform a real contender in the sense of there being a "war" at all.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

I suspect that it's also a bit too early for any kind of "war"....but no doubt the competitors are sizing each other up pretty closely.  

Most times than not when this happens...in the end...the consumer wins.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

It may take some time, but I'd be surprised if, in 12-18 months, the Android Honeycomb tablets don't outsell the iPads by at least the same 2-1 margin Android phones outsold iPhones in Q4 2010 (see here). _Unlike Beta vs. VHS_, tho, Apple still shipped a very healthy 16 million iPhones in Q4/10, so they have very little to worry about, IMHO. And it wouldn't surprise me if they blow through that number in Q1/11, with Verizon now in the mix and offering unlimited data plans to new iPhone purchasers.

In case you missed, Motorola's leaked Xoom Superbowl _2011_ ad pokes some fun at Apple's now legendary Macintosh _1984_ Superbowl ad.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

LameLefty said:



> Tell that to all the Fortune 500 business switching over to iPads, along with the many small business doctors, lawyers, etc. already using and loving the iPad.
> 
> Also, iTunes isn't required in a corporate/enterprise environment. Specialty enterprise apps can be installed via the iPhone Configuration Utility, or on a corporate web server accessed wirelessly and installed automatically for authorized UDIDs.


If you've ever struggled with a corporate IT environment on a notebook away from home using a "foreign" wireless connection as I've watched my 50-something offspring do, I really don't see widespread use of the corporate iPad over the long haul.

One of my sons uses his to watch movies while flying from meeting to meeting. That wasn't allowed on the corporate notebook. I'm pretty sure the corporate IT folks won't be allowing that for the corporate iPad.

To me the iPad is a personal device that can do some business stuff. But I've been wrong before. I have a notebook with an HD disk drive (not BD).


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

LameLefty said:


> Well, hope springs eternal (at least for everyone looking to knock Apple ), but in only one year of availability, iPad revenues alone, if a separate entity, would place it in the top 1/3 of the Fortune 500. A LOT of people are buying them, across a huge spectrum of businesses and types of individuals. Android tablets have a long way to go and high bar to reach to even consider the platform a real contender in the sense of there being a "war" at all.


There is absolutely no disputing that it's a runaway smash hit, which is why everyone else is scrambling to make a competing product (BB, Android, MS, etc). Both platforms actually have some considerable issues to overcome before they can really be called "Enterprise Ready" IMO. That doesn't mean that companies aren't integrating them anyway, but things like revision control (look how much Android has changed in two years!), security and data encryption, remote management, etc. are important considerations if you are thinking about rolling out 10K + of these things with them running mission-critical applications.

Give Android's meteoric rise in the smartphone market and the fact that Honeycomb (the first version really intended for a tablet) isn't yet released I do think that they will be outselling iPads by at least a 2-1 margin by this time next year. iPads will still be doing very well though and by no means am I predicting their imminent demise.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I just think in the end this isn't 1977 and there's room in the market for both, especially since the development kits do allow for simultaneous multiplatform development.


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## HDJulie (Aug 10, 2008)

We need to mark this thread to check back in 12 - 18 months to see if the prediction is true . I'm hoping it is because that will mean competition which means price wars & features wars .


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Apples are for pies and iPad sounds like a feminine hygiene product.



Didn't the same thing happen with DVDs and Blu-Ray?


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

So WHERE are you located? 

And what do you mean by "the same thing"?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

LameLefty said:


> Tell that to all the Fortune 500 business switching over to iPads, along with the many small business doctors, lawyers, etc. already using and loving the iPad.


The same song played during the transition from Palm Pilots to Crackberries.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't see the parallel.

Could Android beat out Apple in the mobile market? Maybe... but it wouldn't be VHS vs Beta.

Beta and VHS were essentially two different ways to do exactly the same thing.

The competing color transmission formats 50 years ago is a valid comparison... as would be the recent HD-DVD vs Blu-ray competition.

But iPhone vs Android doesn't really compare.

Is Ford vs GM the same as Beta vs VHS?
Is Coke vs Pepsi the same as Beta vs VHS?

In Beta vs VHS... the average end-user got the same experience... so they chose the one that did it cheaper for the most part.

In Coke vs Pepsi, the experience isn't identical... so you have people on one side, people on the other, and people who go back and forth. Both thrive.

Android vs iPhone has a much better chance, to me, of being Coke vs Pepsi.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Coke and Pepsi aren't the same thing? I thought they just put different labels on the stuff.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

While there is competition between Apple and everyone else, unlike the VHS/Beta wars, both Apple and Android can both exist comfortably. 

In VHS/Beta, there was a very limited source of content--the studios. Studios had a very expensive proposition if they wanted to support both. Consumers wanted simple choices.

In Apple vs. et al, each platform has its own marketplace to purchase content. You don't walk into Kmart struggling with VHS or Beta decisions. You link to your market and you easily know what is available for you.

PCs and Apples have co-existed now for over 30 years. Both serve their customer base well, and both will likely continue.

VHS and Beta could not have lasted in that way. 

And a very big part of Beta's losing the battle was the 20 minute time limitation per cartridge. Big mistake in the US when shows are 30 minutes minimum.

Cheers,
Tom


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

I don't believe it is comparable to the Betamax vs VHS issue.

First off, it is a lot easier to create software, and develop it for multiple platforms then to distribute physical meda such as video tapes, especially now in the electronic age, where a single programmer in his attic can literary create an app for every device he owns, and place it in an online store.

Second, there are more phones then just the iPhone and Android. Blackberry is still going strong in the business world, and Windows 7 Mobile has just ben introduced and promises to be a good contender.

The VHS/Betamax war was about setting a standard for physical media. The closest we have seen to that was the war between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, where Blu-Ray came out as the winner. And in that case of another physical media war, a decission had to be made. One could be the winner, not both.

In the case of phones, iPhone and Android can share the same market, as well share it with Blackberry, Windows Mobile, Symbian, and some others.

Just take a look at this graph:










There is no NEED for a "clear winner" like there is with physical media. No need at all.


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

Steve said:


> It may take some time, but I'd be surprised if, in 12-18 months, the Android Honeycomb tablets don't outsell the iPads by at least the same 2-1 margin Android phones outsold iPhones in Q4 2010


Oh I am sure they will have a bigger marketshare then iPhone. But an outright "winner" of the "mobile OS war" will not be declared.

MacOS, as mentioned above, has retained about 9% of computer markershare, about 90% is Windows, and the remaining 1% is Linux. Windows may be the big marketshare holder, but neither MacOS or Linux are going to go dissappear anytime soon.

There is just no case of "Betamax vs VHS" in the Smart Phone market.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

The reason one of my notebook's HD DVD player is a dead technology and the reason that my friends Betamax VCR became a dead technology is the lack of content available - folks quit putting out movies in that format.

That's not going to happen with the iPad or Android tablets. This kind of hardware is a platform for generally accepted Apps and content.

Yes, one has to get irritable with Apple over the Flash thing and Google over the H.264 video thing, but at least in the latter case Microsoft announced that it is releasing a plug-in for Google Chrome that enables H.264 support on Windows 7.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Well, what I think will turn people off to Apple phones is that everything has to have the blessing of Apple and Apple insists on their cut. Meanwhile, Android says, please use official sources, but if you want to add something non-official, go right ahead.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

gphvid said:


> I remember when alot of companies brought in Apples before the PC really made any headway, and then those companies switched due to the ease in integrating systems in a PC environment and cheaper, easier and more accessible support. Companies currently going ipad might switch for the same reason once Android establishes itself and has wide support of suppliers and programmers. Apple's *arrogance* may just hurt them if they are not careful here.





Chris Blount said:


> That's what I was thinking. Sort of the same thing Sony did with Beta.


Apple is already blocking app developers from making their apps cross-platform.

So the arrogance is still there. With that in mind, I expect in a few years the market division will be the same as the PC world.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Drucifer said:


> Apple is already blocking app developers from making their apps cross-platform.
> 
> So the arrogance is still there. With that in mind, I expect in a few years the market division will be the same as the PC world.


Do you think their controlling the environment could be a business plan, rather than arrogance? A handful of folk keep using that word, not often effectively.

And I'd be happy to wager on your expectation!:lol:


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Mark Holtz said:


> Well, what I think will turn people off to Apple phones is that everything has to have the blessing of Apple and Apple insists on their cut. Meanwhile, Android says, please use official sources, but if you want to add something non-official, go right ahead.


Frankly, I've always seen this as half-full instead of half-empty.

Until we got to these newer smartphones, you couldn't add your own apps at all to a phone.

Apple allows you to add apps... they could just close the whole thing off to any non-Apple apps if they wanted.

And people that freak out over that 30% cut... keep in mind that Apple is running the distribution system (app store) and advertising and selling your software 24 hours a day for you.

The big companies like EA or other established companies can promote their own stuff by name recognition... but a newbie on the scene wouldn't be able to see boo for a smartphone without major push from the hardware manufacturer.

We wouldn't have things like Angry Birds IF that guy didn't have the App store and Apple behind it to push it... IF it were on a Web site where you had to search for it... it would be much harder for people to sell their apps at any kind of volume/price to make a living at it.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Frankly, I've always seen this as half-full instead of half-empty.
> 
> Until we got to these newer smartphones, you couldn't add your own apps at all to a phone.
> 
> ...


You've done a good job of pointing out the positive aspects of Apple's position / policies and there are benefits. On the flip side consumers see the "openness" of Android and would like to have the best of both worlds. I won't go into the argument of whether Android (or any other OS) provides that or not here as I think it's been pretty well dissected in other threads.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I just go back to it being a very large market and open to a lot of different people. If you like low price or hackability you'll want Android. And the combination of those two might be a majority. But then there are people who want style and usability and Apple has always done that well. Beta vs. VHS? I don't see that as the model here. Maybe PC vs. Mac. There was a time when it wasn't clear who would win there either, but PC hardware became available on multiple manufacturers while Mac stayed closed. So now PCs have 90-something percent market share, which doesn't matter one bit to the Apple people who consistently show higher profits than anyone else.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Like others have said, Apple isn't going anywhere, and they'll still make more money per device sold than anyone, by a large margin.

But, very much like the PC vs. Mac, Android is going to wipe out everyone else but Apple, and will relgate Apple to 15-20% share of the market, max, within a couple of years.

WinPhone7 and WebOS are good OSs, and BlackBerry has been heavily entrenched, but none of that matters. What matters is: what OS has App support and development? Clearly Apple, who "semi-invented" the concept (even though they resisted external developers at first), and Android, with Google actively encouraging external developers.

No one is going to be developing apps for Blackberry, WP7, or WebOS, and those OSs are going to disappear. I predict at least one will be gone by 1Q12, and all three by 1Q13. And let's not even talk about Symbian, which is in a massive death spiral right now, because feature phones are dead.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

The one thing I've come to like about Apple is that it just plain works. I can do everything on Apple products that I can on my PC. Apple introduced AirPlay and all of my media devices talk to each other just fine (iMacs, Apple TV, iPhone) without any additional software.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

If it were anything but an Apple product I would say that Android will be a clear winner. However, Apple fans and just that...fanatical. :grin:

IMHO, Android will wind up with the lions share of the phone market with iPhone right behind. There’s gonna be a surge with the Verizon version of the iPhone skewing the numbers. I’ll be more interested what the growth numbers the end of this year and next. That will be a much better indication of where the market is going.

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Bertelson said:


> If it were anything but an Apple product I would say that Android will be a clear winner. However, Apple fans and just that...fanatical. :grin:


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> << Snipped images due to egregious Photoshopping >>


Don't forget: It's the product, not the man, not the company. 
~ Fan of good stuff.....


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Laxguy said:


> Don't forget: It's the product, not the man, not the company.
> ~ Fan of good stuff.....


Only those two images were used...without commentary...to present the two views per the OP.

I thought it's the user, not the product, not the company, not the man... :shrug:


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Only those two images were used...without commentary...to present the two views per the OP.
> 
> I thought it's the user, not the product, not the company, not the man... :shrug:


Well, yes, it's the user that chooses the product, hopefully not because of the individual who's running a company, but because it's the best choice for him.

*All in good fun.* I don't recall any cries of Koolaid back when there was the VHS-Beta battles, but maybe that's before Jim Jones, or there weren't so many accusations of being fanbois, etc.

But I also recall that _you have 0 Apple products_, and are somewhat disinclined towards the bliss of owning some..... oh, wait,..... I am sensing the vibrations from Cupertino now, and I must go and pay homage in my shrine devoted to St. Steve ..........


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

BTW, Jim Jones predates VHS vs Beta.

I beg to differ, but for a lot of people it's the company first followed by personal needs. And, let’s face it, in everyday use there’s very little difference between the iPhone and a comparable Android phone. It mostly comes down to personal preference.

With that said, IMO, the iPhone isn't going any where and neither is Android.

Mike


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## HDJulie (Aug 10, 2008)

I'm no apple fanatic but I love the iPhone, I love the iPad, & I appreciate finally being able to use my phone without having to remember in what submenu the item that I want is located. I also appreciate that every single person in my family over the age of 11 can also use the phone without a major learning curve. 3 years ago we never texted or sent picture messages or emailed while at the grocery store. Now, we do that all of the time. Apple opened up a world to my family & I am impressed with what they (Apple) have done. I'm not going to buy a Mac. I'm not going to get an Apple TV. I might even one day get another kind of phone now that everyone else has iPhone like phones available. Apple as a company is a control freak & I agree that they are never going to rule the world, but I hope they never go away nor lose whatever it is that makes them so able to create user-friendly items & force the rest of the competition to keep up.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Mike Bertelson said:


> BTW, Jim Jones predates VHS vs Beta.
> 
> I beg to differ, but for a lot of people it's the company first followed by personal needs. And, let's face it, in everyday use there's very little difference between the iPhone and a comparable Android phone. It mostly comes down to personal preference.
> 
> ...


Slightly off topic, Jim Jones doesn't pre-date VHS vs. Beta, they were contemporaries. Beta introduced in 1975, VHS in 1977, Jonestown was 1978. The VHS/Beta war continued thru to early 1980's but it already was pretty much a forgone conclusion--unless Sony changed their tactics. They didn't, Beta died. (And the story is so much more than just "porn", "content", or even "quality".) 

There are some parallels (that I wasn't aware of). Apple is marketing and positioning quality as a means for a higher price. (Just like Sony.)

Apple is trying to drive some format war in the content side of things--but that has been very much nullified by converters that everyone is making. 

Apple does control their ecology by limiting 3rd party manufacturers, software development, etc.

But, Apple isn't trying to get the whole marketplace--they are ignoring a lot of people who want inexpensive features. So competition reigns on.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

HDJulie said:


> I'm no apple fanatic but I love the iPhone, I love the iPad, & I appreciate finally being able to use my phone without having to remember in what submenu the item that I want is located. I also appreciate that every single person in my family over the age of 11 can also use the phone without a major learning curve. 3 years ago we never texted or sent picture messages or emailed while at the grocery store. Now, we do that all of the time. Apple opened up a world to my family & I am impressed with what they (Apple) have done. I'm not going to buy a Mac. I'm not going to get an Apple TV. I might even one day get another kind of phone now that everyone else has iPhone like phones available. Apple as a company is a control freak & I agree that they are never going to rule the world, but I hope they never go away nor lose whatever it is that makes them so able to create user-friendly items & force the rest of the competition to keep up.


Well put. I think that is what attracted me to Apple the most. It seems the older I get, the less I want to fiddle with things.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Laxguy said:


> But I also recall that _you have 0 Apple products_, and are somewhat disinclined towards the bliss of owning some.....


Actually...there's an iPhone and iPad in the house this very moment... 

Yet neither are used by me daily...I've used them both enough to know I don't yet see the value or wouldn't pay those prices for one myself...not to this point anyway. But I have sipped Koolaid.

Neither the APPLE or ANDROID worlds rule here quite yet...so we'll see how the "war" goes...


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

bobukcat said:


> You've done a good job of pointing out the positive aspects of Apple's position / policies and there are benefits. On the flip side consumers see the "openness" of Android and would like to have the best of both worlds. I won't go into the argument of whether Android (or any other OS) provides that or not here as I think it's been pretty well dissected in other threads.


We really need to look no further than Linux... IF the people truly wanted openness more than splash and familiarity... then Windows would have tanked years ago once Linux made the scene.

I like Linux actually... but it isn't gaining significant ground to the average home user even though it is as open as an operating system can be... so why hasn't the public jumped all over it and all the free software available for it that you can configure and even re-compile as you wish?

Because being open isn't the major factor pushing the success of these things to the average consumer.

Techies might want open... but the techie share of the market wouldn't be enough to sustain most companies longterm... companies like Apple need more people to adopt than just the techie.

It's a lot like comic book adapted movies. Whenever a comic is adapted to a movie, comic fans complain that stuff was changed from the comic... and why can't it be like the comic... But the comic typically sells 50,000-100,000 if it is a popular one... and if those are the only people that see the movie, the studio would tank in a hurry! So they have to appeal to the masses... and the masses usually don't care if it is 100% faithful to the comic that they probably haven't read anyway... and the movie studio pisses off a few comic fans who swear to never see the movie... while millions of other people go see it and make the studio money.

Same for the phones... the techies will complain about wanting an open architecture and want to configure "their" phone the way they want... but they aren't the majority of a successful market. Apple will market to the people who want a specific set of features, the ability to buy some additional apps, and the ability to pick it up and turn it on and have it work like they expect every time... and most of those people don't care about open architecture.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> .. You see... you couldn't get porn on Beta.


Isn't that what many people think put Blu-Ray ahead of HD DVD?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

mikeny said:


> Isn't that what many people think put Blu-Ray ahead of HD DVD?


No, I've never heard anyone state that. Porn was available on HD-DVD and BD, and initially it was HD-DVD only.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> No, I've never heard anyone state that. Porn was available on HD-DVD and BD, and initially it was HD-DVD only.


I guess you're right. However, according to this blog http://jeffreydonenfeld.com/blog/2008/01/the-war-is-over-blu-ray-wins/ Sony's late decision to support the industry helped "seal the deal".

"Next up, the porn industry&#8230;

......In addition to the major movie studio support, the other deciding factor is porn. Yep, the porn industry, like it or not, has a major role in selecting consumer AV formats. I believe it's hw the VHS-Beta war was won, and was a key deciding factor for the blu-ray/hd-dvd war. The way I understand this whole situation is.. before just recently, Sony (blu-ray's major backing body) didn't endorse the porn industries use of blu-ray. No, they didn't ban it or do anything to stop it, per se, they just didn't do anything to help it along with the format. The hd-dvd camp did, however, and thus took over a decent market share. Now that Sony has begun to help out, and really make accommodations for porn to be released on blu-ray, the deal is sealed, and blu-ray will rise to the top."


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

?? Reverse logic?

BD didn't support porn and it still succeeded? Only when BD added support for porn? But HD already had lots of support and failed?

Sorry, that logic doesn't fly with me.

I do think porn is an influence, but not nearly as large as some of the other influences (at least in the Beta/VHS story.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

The first porn Blu Ray's shipped in mid-January 2008. Toshiba announced it had lost the format war on January 16th, 2008. 

Porn had nothing to do with the HD-DVD/BD war.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Tom Robertson said:


> ?? Reverse logic?
> 
> BD didn't support porn and it still succeeded? Only when BD added support for porn? But HD already had lots of support and failed?
> 
> ...


And I am mystified as how a hardware mfg. either supports or doesn't support a particular industry segment- in this case porn- how do they do that? Refuse to sell burners/pressers to those who don't sign that they'll release only PG16 and above? Mideny, please enlighten!


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> ?? Reverse logic?
> 
> BD didn't support porn and it still succeeded? Only when BD added support for porn? But HD already had lots of support and failed?
> 
> ...


I don't think there was any reverse logic. I think they (Sony) may have been on the fence. Then when they lent support, they put themselves over the top.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> ?? Reverse logic?
> 
> BD didn't support porn and it still succeeded? Only when BD added support for porn? But HD already had lots of support and failed?
> 
> ...


The Internet has made what format you can or can't buy porn on nearly irrelevant!


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Stewart Vernon said:


> We really need to look no further than Linux... IF the people truly wanted openness more than splash and familiarity... then Windows would have tanked years ago once Linux made the scene.
> 
> I like Linux actually... but it isn't gaining significant ground to the average home user even though it is as open as an operating system can be... so why hasn't the public jumped all over it and all the free software available for it that you can configure and even re-compile as you wish?
> 
> ...


I think you're analogy here is a little flawed with regards to the Android / iPhone (I refuse to call it iOS - that's what Cisco routers run) in that Linux is pretty user unfriendly for non-technical people. Android on the other hand is very user friendly and resemble the iPhone s/w in a lot of ways but includes not only the ability to hack the phone (more so than iPhone) if you chose but also is much more customizable. You want a different browser, home screen, dialer, music player, etc. - not a problem on Android but it is on iPhone - yet the Android device is still very intuitive and user-friendly.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> ?? Reverse logic?
> 
> BD didn't support porn and it still succeeded? Only when BD added support for porn? But HD already had lots of support and failed?
> 
> ...


That's the fun reasoning people like to use. IMHO, the biggest advantage was how many hours you could fit on a tape and the cost.

IIRC, the max VHS recording time wound up being ten-ish hours (I still have a couple of those T-210 tapes laying around) on a tape while Betamax was something like five. One VHS tape was cheaper than two Betas.

Then there was the cost of the machine. VHS was cheaper and recorded more. IMHO, that's why VHS won out in the end.

However, Android and iPhone smart phones are nearly identically in functionality and cost. I have no idea what could be the deciding factor here.

There is one advantage Androids currently have that it's likely iPhones won't every have. My Captivate has a replaceable battery and an SD card slot for expandability (I added a 16GB card). It doesn't appear iPhone will ever have either of these.

Mike


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

bobukcat said:


> I think you're analogy here is a little flawed with regards to the Android / iPhone (I refuse to call it iOS - that's what Cisco routers run) in that Linux is pretty user unfriendly for non-technical people. Android on the other hand is very user friendly and resemble the iPhone s/w in a lot of ways but includes not only the ability to hack the phone (more so than iPhone) if you chose but also is much more customizable. You want a different browser, home screen, dialer, music player, etc. - not a problem on Android but it is on iPhone - yet the Android device is still very intuitive and user-friendly.


The average user, though, doesn't hack or customize apps/browsers like the techies do.

The average user of Windows 7 probably uses the IE browser that comes with it... Similarly lots of Mac users are fine with Safari because it comes bundled.

I use Firefox myself... but IF I had never been given the choice of using Firefox... I would probably have adjusted to IE on my PC and Safari on my Mac.

I have no problems using Safari on my iPhone and iPad... and haven't found myself wanting Firefox on those devices... and I'm usually more of a techie myself.

I just don't think the discussions we have on boards/forums like this are representative of the masses... Home computers and smartphones didn't become commonplace in the average user's home until they were mostly plug 'n play... and most of those users really don't know how to customize their devices even if they wanted to. I'm not saying they are dumb... just saying their interest level isn't high enough to warrant learning how.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Mike Bertelson said:


> That's the fun reasoning people like to use. IMHO, the biggest advantage was how many hours you could fit on a tape and the cost.
> 
> IIRC, the max VHS recording time wound up being ten-ish hours (I still have a couple of those T-210 tapes laying around) on a tape while Betamax was something like five. One VHS tape was cheaper than two Betas.
> 
> ...


Bingo, bingo, and a hidden bingo.

Sony (apparently) tried to play the quality game so priced everything somewhat higher: machines, tapes, etc. VHS played the lots of manufacturers, lower prices, and longer recording time from the very beginning.

To catch up on the recording time, Sony seems to have ended up with video quality that was the same as VHS. And too little too late.

The smartphone and tablet market doesn't have any killer bottlenecks. Content is easily created for all the platforms. Apps are routinely cross developed. The phones work on most networks... (though the iFamily, by avoiding t-mobile and verizon have limited themselves tremendously.)

So there just isn't a reason it must be one or the other. And many will survive.

Cheers,
Tom


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