# Is it safe to go into the water? (are today's installs going well?)



## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I've been with D* since 1997 and have actually been pretty happy with the service. I was psyched when WWDVR was announced and called to get an install scheduled the first week.

However, we all know how much of a challenge it was back then to get a good install during one visit. The installers weren't trained properly and they often didn't have the correct equipment. That's OK - it was new and sometimes those things happen.

But now it's been a few months, and I'm thinking that this might be a good time to pull the trigger. I don't want to wait till the snow flies (ugly for the installers), and Sept - October is great weather. I'll need a new dish with SWM and DECAs installed. That should be about it.

So - is it safe to go into the water and do the install now?

Thanks in advance for your words of wisdom


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## Daniel (Feb 6, 2007)

Well, speaking solely from my recent Whole Home/SWM install, the DirecTV installers are still incompetent. My installer couldn't even figure out how to program the remote for RF and spent about an hour trying. I finally just threw the idiot out of my house and finished up the install myself. The only thing he really knew was how to point the dish (98-100 across the board). 

I know that there must be very good competent installers out there, but like the Yeti, they seem very hard to find and could be only myth.


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## mobandit (Sep 4, 2007)

Daniel said:


> Well, speaking solely from my recent Whole Home/SWM install, the DirecTV installers are still incompetent. My installer couldn't even figure out how to program the remote for RF and spent about an hour trying. I finally just threw the idiot out of my house and finished up the install myself. The only thing he really knew was how to point the dish (98-100 across the board).
> 
> I know that there must be very good competent installers out there, but like the Yeti, they seem very hard to find and could be only myth.


I had my install done in early June...the installer was nearly clueless. My new antenna that had to be installed still isn't peaked as well as my old reflector was...I hope they have gotten better!


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm in the same boat and am going to wait awhile yet. Running well with cat-5 though.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

My whole home installer was pretty good. It took a while for equipment to come in, and he was a little lazy at times, but overall it was ok. He drank all my soda pop though, that was kinda annoying...

Oh wait, I installed it myself! :lol:

I would wait a little bit if you can stand it and let receivers get replenished and the techs get a few more DECA installs under their belts.


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## grecorj (Jan 20, 2008)

I had a very good experience this past weekend:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=182970

My installer was fairly knowledgeable, too. Can't complain.

My install was relatively simple tho -- lines to each room were already in place. But did get 1) new SWM dish, 2) two new HR24s and one H24, 3) Whole Home DVR, 4) ICK for VoD. Took 2.5 hours. He arrived w/in 4 hour window (we weren't first job of day).

Only issue is HD equipment is apparently in short supply. You may want to wait a month or two to make sure there is plenty of the new HR2x boxes in supply for your install.


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## jeffro23 (Jul 10, 2007)

my install yesterday was pretty brutal. I was basically helping him the whole time.
I asked him alot of questions, not to get answers, but to get a general sense of how much he knew. not as much as I hoped...

though I did get a free hr24 when he couldnt get my HR20-100 on the network.
I called Cust Svc and the installation company called me back and said they would bring a new HR24 this morning and (at least my wife verified) they did. He also left me an extra DECA and PI that Im going to try to use in a room with no receiver(hook up to my sons laptop)

So in the end, its been worth the hassle. I do understand that there is a certain degree of complexity to this technology. crossing satellite technology over Coax with ethernet and networking. Unfortunately, A certain level of patience and a good understanding of what is going on is needed by the customer for most installations.


So are all DTV installers subcontracted out? If thats so, I didnt realize this was the case. has it always been like this?


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

I'll say go for it. But it helps to know in advance the way you want it done. Discuss the plan with your installer before he starts.

When I upgraded to WHD with Internet Connection Kit (best to specify on order or you won't get the kit), the tech didn't re-peak my dish seeing I already had the green-labeled SWiM lnb installed. I later added an HR24-500 and it failed sat setup. I called and got a re-peak credited and when the tech arrived I asked if he could make some changes. He didn't like the wiring either. He swapped the SWiM PI single coax with a dual to reduce the amount of coax. He also got rid of barrel splices where existing cabling was re-used on my original install. I showed him the improved difference in my coax diagnostics when he finished.

Plan ahead; that made a difference on my third visit this year but the first guy that did my Mover's Install, created all my issues and talking to him didn't help. But with my service calls being February, June and July, they progressed to my satisfaction. Each visit was with a different tech but the experience, know-how and communication improved with each visit.

I still see posts where the tech didn't know he shouldn't be connecting ETHERNET to WHD installs; ask for the new Broad Band DECA: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=182828


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Wow - Why does D* hire these folks and not train them?

Well, I placed the order today - install next week. I'll let you know how it goes. Should be relatively simple install - I have the 2 HR20-700's already. I'm getting one new HD receiver in a different room. Internet too, and my router is pretty close to one of my HR20's.


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## armchair (Jul 27, 2009)

Well the tech that did my WHD with Internet Connection Kit was trained but no hands-on. This was his first hands-on install. He tried to be thorough but my sat signals looked good. The failure I got above was only caught because I was setting up a new HR24. It failed one of the voltage settings which seems to indicate a re-peak of dish is necessary. You may want to verify this for yourself when the new Receiver is installed. All voltage boxes s/b checked to pass test.

The tech that did my last service call came equipped with a coax torque wrench and used it with conviction. He then used a meter that he said was designed for proper SWiM alignment. I did not even look at the meter but he checked the sat setup to see that it cleared and now passes. Apparently, you cannot rely on signal strength alone.


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## twohour (May 25, 2006)

jeffro23 said:


> my install yesterday was pretty brutal. I was basically helping him the whole time.
> I asked him alot of questions, not to get answers, but to get a general sense of how much he knew. not as much as I hoped...
> 
> though I did get a free hr24 when he couldnt get my HR20-100 on the network.
> ...


you should call him and return the stolen goods .......u cheap ars


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Wow - Why does D* hire these folks and not train them?


Because training is expensive. A tech's job is to be out installing (i.e., making money for DirecTV). Training means the tech is in the warehouse, not only not earning any income for DirecTV, but also COSTING money via the training costs. And consider that 1/3 of the techs won't even be working for DirecTV 2 months from now, and it isn't hard to do the math.

Then there are the subcontractors, who rarely get any oppertunity for training. And subs of subs? Forget it. Those poor guys can barely afford to eat - they HAVE to work every possible second.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

jeffro23 said:


> So are all DTV installers subcontracted out? If thats so, I didnt realize this was the case. has it always been like this?


DirecTV is slowly acquiring most of the big installation contractors, but that's only been in the last couple of years. Prior to that, since DirecTV started offering installation service more than a dozen years ago, 100% of installs were subcontracted.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

It's a shame, really. D* has a really good product, but they leave it to the untrained to install it.

Kinda like going to a Mercedes dealer only to see high school kids doing complex auto repairs (and failing)


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I've been with D* since 1997 and have actually been pretty happy with the service. I was psyched when WWDVR was announced and called to get an install scheduled the first week.
> 
> However, we all know how much of a challenge it was back then to get a good install during one visit. The installers weren't trained properly and they often didn't have the correct equipment. That's OK - it was new and sometimes those things happen.
> 
> ...


When you call DirecTV tell them you want a experienced tech to do the work and get the csr's name and ID number. And yes have the work done now while the weather and climate are still good. It's human nature to concentrate more on how cold and wet you are while doing outside work then on what you are doing.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Seriously? I can call and ask for an experience tech? And they'll provide one?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Seriously? I can call and ask for an experience tech? And they'll provide one?


Good luck with that. :lol:


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> It's a shame, really. D* has a really good product, but they leave it to the untrained to install it.
> 
> Kinda like going to a Mercedes dealer only to see high school kids doing complex auto repairs (and failing)


It's the end result of two things. 1) The customers demands for everything to be free, free, FREE. 2) The drive to raise profits at the expense of everything else.

In the end, you get way you PAY for.


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## grecorj (Jan 20, 2008)

RobertE said:


> <snip>In the end, you get way you PAY for.


I hear what you're saying, but I disagree that we aren't paying for proper installation.

DirecTV offers "free" installation/equipment the same way a cell phone company offers you a "free" phone. You're paying for that equipment/installation over the life of your 2 yr commitment. Obviously DirecTV can afford that average $700 new customer acquisition cost by charging you for your tv service (& related services). I mean, think about it, $3 for MRV? $7 for DVR service? $10 for HD? $5 for each additional receiver? You mean to tell me there is no profit margin in there?

So I think in the end I do pay for that "free" installation ... and I expect it to be done correctly, the first time, regardless. I'm funny like that. I want just what it says in my installation agreement: certain amount of line to dish; properly installed dish; working equipment + properly configured equipment; working services like WHDVR and OnDemand. Nothing more, nothing less. If I get the latest DVR, great. If the installer does things without being asked (like terminating open coax connections), awesome. Bonus for me.

But if DirecTV sends me someone who can't do the job, they need to make it right. And I think in most cases they do. The frustrating part sometimes is getting there.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Yeah - my point is that DirecTV positions themselves as the "white glove service" provider. Much like BMW or Lexus does in the auto industry.

Cheaping out on a customer's first touch point, the installation, is not a wise business move. It only serves to frustrate the customer and diminish the reputation of DirecTV needlessly.


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## grecorj (Jan 20, 2008)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Yeah - my point is that DirecTV positions themselves as the "white glove service" provider. Much like BMW or Lexus does in the auto industry.
> 
> Cheaping out on a customer's first touch point, the installation, is not a wise business move. It only serves to frustrate the customer and diminish the reputation of DirecTV needlessly.


Well it sounds like your install a few months ago was a fail, yet you're back for more pain ... why?


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

grecorj,
I cancelled the install before it was attempted due to all the horror stories here at dbstalk.com.

There are many more success stories today than when WWDVR was first rolled out.


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## grecorj (Jan 20, 2008)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> grecorj,
> I cancelled the install before it was attempted due to all the horror stories here at dbstalk.com.
> 
> There are many more success stories today than when WWDVR was first rolled out.


Gotcha. But I'm just saying there must be a reason why people put up with their (sometimes) cruddy service...you + me both included, since we're both still customers, posting here, etc.

It is disappointing that the reality doesn't always live up to the promise .... and I definitely feel for people with little or no knowledge about the technology, they are completely at the mercy of the company...at least by reading the forums here we have a bit of an advantage as to what to look for and what to ask for...

Good luck with your install ....


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## brettl (Dec 17, 2006)

Go for it. D sent a 2 installer team to my house. They went out of their way to say I am a VIP and getting special treatment. Got a new dish, 4 existing boxes hooked up and ICK to all. All for the low cost of $0. It works great - no issues or complaints.

I also got 2 free years of HD and NFL Sunday ticket for 50% off plus some other discounts. Total savings was nearly $600.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> grecorj,
> I cancelled the install before it was attempted due to all the horror stories here at dbstalk.com.
> 
> There are many more success stories today than when WWDVR was first rolled out.


Installs are potentially a crap shoot. Mine went very well, My friends' went without a hitch and they are very pleased. If there ever was a proper place to say "your mileage may vary", this is it.

That said, if you are persistent, you'll end up fine. The one thing fifteen years with D* has taught me is that they will eventually get things right, and if it's worth having the equipment and service, it can be obtained, at varying levels of aggravation. I had none, my friends had none. Others haven't been so lucky, but if they stick with it, they get what the should.

It isn't ideal that installs are all over the map in terms of "ease", but the final product is worth it to me.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

grecorj said:


> DirecTV offers "free" installation/equipment the same way a cell phone company offers you a "free" phone. You're paying for that equipment/installation over the life of your 2 yr commitment. Obviously DirecTV can afford that average $700 new customer acquisition cost by charging you for your tv service (& related services).


Of that $700 average SAC, less than $150 is installation labor cost (this is an average, remember). Of that amount, the average tech probably nets about $60 and puts in 3-4 hours worth of work, and that's not counting drive time or anything else. In any similar service field, the tech would have netted $200+ for the same amount of time. If you don't think those facts have a HUGE bearing on the quality of the techs they can attract and keep, you understand very little about the free market.

The fact is that you can't really make a living being only a satellite installer unless you are single and willing to work 80 hours a week.

DirecTV's installers are nearly all "entry-level" because people with experience/skill will leave for better-paying work. How could DirecTV get better-quality, better-trained employees? Simple: they'd have to pay them much better, so that the good ones would stay and the bad ones could be fired (right now, it's the opposite: the good ones leave, and the bad ones have to be kept because they need bodies). But where would that money come from?

It would come from the customers, of course. Either there would be a $200 installation charge, or your monthly bill would have to go up. Since customers aren't willing to accept either of those options, they end up with the service level they are willing to pay for. (Hint: low pay = low service.)


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

BZ,
Reminds me of when I worked for Nike. I was explaining to my mother how Nike had recently (1985-ish) shut down its factories in ME and NH - moving production to China.

My mom thought it was terrible (as did I). I then asked her if she'd pay an extra $30 for the American made shoes. She pondered for a bit and answered, "no".

You know what D* should do? Offer "premium installation" service, where, for $xxx you get a real professional and the job is done right.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> BZ,
> Reminds me of when I worked for Nike. I was explaining to my mother how Nike had recently (1985-ish) shut down its factories in ME and NH - moving production to China.
> 
> My mom thought it was terrible (as did I). I then asked her if she'd pay an extra $30 for the American made shoes. She pondered for a bit and answered, "no".
> ...


I think that's niche that independent dealers fill. And about the same percentage would pay for their services as would pay the extra $30 for American made shoes. (My guess, no statistics to back that up.) Of course that's further reduced by those people that can do a quality install for themself. (Not many can make their own shoes, compared to those who can install their own dish.)


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## joe diamond (Feb 28, 2007)

BattleZone said:


> DirecTV is slowly acquiring most of the big installation contractors, but that's only been in the last couple of years. Prior to that, since DirecTV started offering installation service more than a dozen years ago, 100% of installs were subcontracted.


Hey BattleZone,

I found this site and jumped in with the firm resolve to post nothing and just read up on the tech expansion that has come along after I parked by installation truck. In short, I had been using the courts to get paid too much and the money was just not there. But I do have to keep my hand in for the few deals that come my way, hence,my plan to read around here for tech info. You have been helpful in the past with this. . . but I wonder if you could post your best guess answer to this question:

What is NOW included in the FREE basic Directv installation AND where does the custom work begin?

Thanks,

Joe


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## netraa (Mar 28, 2007)

while i'm not BZ i'll toss in an answer here to give another data point.

standard install.

install dish using one of the 'standard, approved mounts'
that is the standard mount
the 's' tube
the rail mount
the undereave mount
the under soffit mount
a pole mount within 20 feet of the house if i can use a shovel and a post hole digger

running the required 1, 2, 4 cables to a suitable location for the ground within reason from where i want it, and where the customer wants it.

running only the required lines for the IRD's purchased, utilizing any existing prewire lines that are up to spec. All lines that have to be run are run on the outside of the house and drilled in through the outside wall as close to where as the IRD is as possible.

down through floors into crawlspaces is OPTIONAL...

------

custom work includes demanding that the odu goes on the back of the house causing much more wire and time to be used.

wall drops* 

sometimes i will do a wall drop into a on-q panel for free if the time spent doing the drop is going to be less than running the wires.

non-pen mats/mounts

flat cables for going through windows on apartments

any extra wiring that the customer wants for 'future work' 

any hardware that is not on the work order.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

That's a pretty good summary...


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> BZ,
> Reminds me of when I worked for Nike. I was explaining to my mother how Nike had recently (1985-ish) shut down its factories in ME and NH - moving production to China.
> 
> My mom thought it was terrible (as did I). I then asked her if she'd pay an extra $30 for the American made shoes. She pondered for a bit and answered, "no".


I use the same arguement when people ask why they have to have a 4 hour appointment window too. "It costs money to have extra techs sitting around waiting for that 60-minute arrival window you demand. Would you pay an extra $50 to guarantee a 1-hour window?" "Well, no." "Then deal with it."



> You know what D* should do? Offer "premium installation" service, where, for $xxx you get a real professional and the job is done right.


I've said that for years, but the problem is that "free" customers would start insisting on getting the "premium" installation service for free everytime there's the littlest glitch in the system. And you'd have people who really want $2000 in custom work trying to get it all for the $100 "premium" fee. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but like everything else, there would be problems.


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## joe diamond (Feb 28, 2007)

BattleZone said:


> That's a pretty good summary...


Thanks Netraa & BZ,

That is what I thought. Things have slipped. The single wire to receivers became two for the recorders. The two lines from the dish become four.
You can easily use a dozen fittings on the 6 x 8+ multiswitches. The PI is also a cable run. The pole seems to now be an expected FREE item. The additional masts & balcony rig gotta come from somewhere. Phone work.....is what it is.

All this as the money offered goes down and the cost of everything goes up.

Thanks for the update....I'm still parked.

Joe


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