# New Fee For DishNetwork Guide?



## MobileBay

New Fee for DishNetwork Guide?


I have been reading the threads here on DBS Talk about the new PVR / DVR Fees since
they were announced by DishNetwork. Based on the comments posted on the many
threads concerning DVR Fee’s I get the impression that most think the new Monthly DVR
Fee is for the Software Operating System in the DVR. I don’t see it that way. I feel the
DVR Fee (while the name is misleading) is actually a Monthly Fee for DishNetworks 9
day (EPG) Electronic Program Guide.

DishNetworks EPG is the root of what makes all of their Satellite Receivers soo easy
operate..... The EPG coupled with the technology of the DVR, indeed makes recording
programs and Time Shifted Viewing of Programs a Breeze..... Without DishNetworks
EPG a DVR would be nothing more than a Digital version of a VCR.

I will add this.... The EPG on Non DVR Receivers, as we all know, is very limited.... but 
there is no fee for the EPG on those receivers.... well not yet lol

A Little Comparison - EPG vs Printed Guide

For the DishNetwork customer that buys a New Generation DVR (when it becomes
available) and subscribes to the Americas Top 150 Package a $5.00 Monthly Fee will
apply for the 9 day EPG...... $60.00 a year

If you were to pay the cover price for a printed program guide like TV Guide you would
pay about $104.00 per year or about $8.70 a month. An annual subscription to T.V. Guide
is much less.... $39.60 or about $3.30 a month. While a printed program guide like T.V.
Guide will provide some program listings, It won’t begin to list all the channels available
on DishNetwork and It Won’t work in conjunction with the software timers on your
receiver and will never be as up to date or as accurate as the information provided by
DishNetworks EPG...... and yes I know the EPG has not yet updated TNN to Spike lol

Like anyone else, I hate the idea of an additional fee. But the $5.00 a Month Fee
DishNetwork will be charging for their 9 Day EPG on New Generation DVR Receivers is
the best value they have going. With one exception The Fee should only be charged once
per account.

I think DishNetwork offers a great line of Products, Programming. and Services. Sure
there are bugs in the Software and waiting for Software Updates, New Products and
Services is often a pain. But, Overall I have not seen anything better.

If you have not experienced the 9 day EPG ya don’t know what your missing. While I
love my DVR, by far its best feature is the 9 day EPG.

1- PVR 721 and 2 - 4700's


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## RocketNJ

The thing that has us all up in arms is they did not charge a fee for the existing PVRs (DP7100, 7200, 501, 508, 721) and they have the 9 day guide. Had Dish charged $5 a month from the beginning then we wouldn't be *****ing. It was one of their selling points (no PVR fee) over going with D* and thier TIVO based unit.

With the new charge there will be less incentive for new subs to go with Dish (unless programming they want is not available on D*)

George



MobileBay said:


> New Fee for DishNetwork Guide?
> 
> Like anyone else, I hate the idea of an additional fee. But the $5.00 a Month Fee
> DishNetwork will be charging for their 9 Day EPG on New Generation DVR Receivers is
> the best value they have going. With one exception The Fee should only be charged once
> per account.


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## Bill R

MobileBay said:


> New Fee for DishNetwork Guide?
> I think DishNetwork offers a great line of Products, Programming. and Services. Sure
> there are bugs in the Software and waiting for Software Updates, New Products and
> Services is often a pain. But, Overall I have not seen anything better.
> 
> 1- PVR 721 and 2 - 4700's


If you haven't seen anything better it is because you haven't looked very hard. The DirecTV TiVO is a FAR better product (in stability in features) then ANY DISH DVR and, depending on what programming package you subscribe to, is cheaper than the DISH DVR fee.

And you are completely wrong about the fee being for the EPG. The fee is for the DVR service just as DISH has stated. You have absolutely no understanding of the cost of a printed guide vs. a software guide. The printed guide costs far more (in material and person hours) to put out than a software guide.

I sure wish that you DISH pom-pom cheerleaders would take off your rose-colored glasses and look at things the way they really are. Go out and look at the other products on the market before you get out your pom-poms.


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## Jacob S

I agree in that if they would have charged from the beginning then there would not be this type of complaining going on now but then again we may not have the Dish PVR service but the DirecTivo instead or some other alternative. The fee is not for the guide but for the DVR service. I read a while back where some Directv receivers were going to have a 5+ day guide on them. Also if they were going to charge for the Program Guide then dont you think they had better get it for 30 days? Doubt that would happen.


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## MobileBay

Biil R I bet you are never a happy person...... What a sad situation ((( Keep those blinders on Bill so you can continue to see things just as you want.


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## MobileBay

Jacob S said:


> I agree in that if they would have charged from the beginning then there would not be this type of complaining going on now but then again we may not have the Dish PVR service but the DirecTivo instead or some other alternative. The fee is not for the guide but for the DVR service. I read a while back where some Directv receivers were going to have a 5+ day guide on them. Also if they were going to charge for the Program Guide then dont you think they had better get it for 30 days? Doubt that would happen.


Ok Ya say the fee is not for the guide but for the DVR service. Maybe you are right but if you are right it makes no sense to me.

How would a DVR work without a EPG? The way I see it the DVR would need much more user information to set up the recording timers, Dish Channel Number, Program Start Time, Program Length or Program End Time and where would this information come from? A guide of some sort I would guess.

Call the fee by what name ya want but the bottom line is the EPG provides the DVR Operating Software with the information it needs for the automatic recording functions of programs the viewer has selected to record.


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## rtt2

Doesn't Dish get the Program Data from Tribune Media for free anyways? I get the same 7 day guide in grid format in the Sunday edition of the New York Times each week for free. That guide is distributed by the Tribune Company.


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## baloo75

MobileBay said:


> New Fee for DishNetwork Guide?
> 
> I feel the
> DVR Fee (while the name is misleading) is actually a Monthly Fee for DishNetworks 9
> day (EPG) Electronic Program Guide.


I disagree with you. The program guide for the DVR systems is no different than for non DVR systems. The only difference is that the guide goes out 9 days instead of 3 days. It shouldn't cost dish any more or less to get a 9 day guide from their vendor than a 3 day guide. The way I understand it Dish buys their guide data from a 3rd party, the 3rd party types in the data and sends it to dish for upload. The receiver then stores what it can for the guide locally. The functionality that allows you to select a program to record is in the firmware, that is not a recurring fee to dish. Dish is already buying the guide data so in the electronic realm it is built in to everyones bills already.

The printed copy costs more because someone needs to layout the magazine, perform prepress operations on the magazine then actually print the magazine. Then it needs to be mailed out and the subscription service also costs money to maintain. This is a completely different and more costly service for Dish.

I believe the reason dish is charging the fee is because they can. A lot of us that currently get it for free are complaining but there are a lot of people out there that hasn't ever heard of DVR that dish is going to target. The functionality is new to these customers so they will pay the fee, as well as lower up front hardware costs. Basically it is a way for Dish to grow their business, is it risky for Dish, sure. But to grow a business you have to take risks.


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## Unthinkable

Can someone please edit the title of this thread to include a question mark at the end? Very misleading browsing through thread titles like these with speculation penned as fact.


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## pjmrt

RocketNJ said:


> The thing that has us all up in arms is they did not charge a fee for the existing PVRs (DP7100, 7200, 501, 508, 721) and they have the 9 day guide. Had Dish charged $5 a month from the beginning then we wouldn't be *****ing. It was one of their selling points (no PVR fee) over going with D* and thier TIVO based unit.
> 
> George


 :nono: 
Sorry, I disagree. Had Dish been charging a monthly fee all along, there would still be complaining, albeit from much less customers. The no fee offer got me to pay the money for my original dishplayer, and I would not have purchased my 721 had there been a monthly fee for the DVR. If Dish had not said "no fee PVRs" I say there still would be complaining - just not as many complaining since there would not be as many subscribers. I think the PVR fee is biting the hand that has been feeding Dish.


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## Geronimo

The 7100 and 72-- do have a fee.


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## MobileBay

Unthinkable said:


> Can someone please edit the title of this thread to include a question mark at the end? Very misleading browsing through thread titles like these with speculation penned as fact.


Just edited the title and added a question mark..... Sorry about that.


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## tampa8

Mobilebay, I understand your thinking, but disagree. With the newly announced DVR fees and seeing what it potentially could cost to get the other equipment (superdish, etc..) Dish has lost my purchase of the 921 and I will just get OTA HD with my old DTC-100. I bought a Panasonic dvd recorder with a hard drive. It works very similar to a DVR, but of course cannot use the guide from dish so you have to set up timers. In that regard, I believe you have a point. But, because other of their receivers have the same guide, and because with TIVO you are paying for the PVR features, I think Dish is indeed charging for the DVR features. I have Top 150 Plus (HBO/Cinnemax) and it just seems like a slap in the face to expect on top of that to pay $999 (or even a discounted price) for the 921, buy a new superdish and switches, AND pay $120 a year in fees. ($5 DVR fee, $5 2nd receiver fee)


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## Bill R

MobileBay said:


> Biil R I bet you are never a happy person...... What a sad situation ((( Keep those blinders on Bill so you can continue to see things just as you want.


What the hell does that mean? Just because I disagree with YOU doesn't make me an unhappy person. The problem here is YOU and all the other pom-pom wavers that think that DISH can do no wrong and you don't think anyone should dispute that. There needs to be more balance on DBSTalk. Otherwise, it will become an "all DISH, all the time and they can do no wrong" board and I don't think even the administrators would like that to happen.

And what "blinders" are you talking about? You are the one that is not looking at things the way they really are.


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## MobileBay

Bill R said:


> What the hell does that mean? Just because I disagree with YOU doesn't make me an unhappy person. The problem here is YOU and all the other pom-pom wavers that think that DISH can do no wrong and you don't think anyone should dispute that. There needs to be more balance on DBSTalk. Otherwise, it will become an "all DISH, all the time and they can do no wrong" board and I don't think even the administrators would like that to happen.
> 
> And what "blinders" are you talking about? You are the one that is not looking at things the way they really are.


Poor Bill,  First he calls me a Pom-Pom Waiver and then he attacks me again for responding to his childish words.

Grow up Bill ! Your personal attacks are silly.

Indeed a sad case


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## Mark Holtz

Bill R said:


> I sure wish that you DISH pom-pom cheerleaders would take off your rose-colored glasses and look at things the way they really are. Go out and look at the other products on the market before you get out your pom-poms.


Care to name the people who are the "DISH pom-pom cheerleaders"?

I was one of the people who was ready to get a 510 or a 522 because Dish offered some channels that DirecTV didn't, such as the Superstations. Dish also has a strong offering of foreign language channels that DirecTV doesn't offer.

Where were you when it was announced that the new DishDVR fees were announced at the beginning of August. I believe it spanned 14 pages.

How about the ad slick that said "cheaper than TiVo"? That has since changed.

How about the quick snippet from the last "Charlie Chat" about how "they make the best DVRs"? ROFL!


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## Bob Haller

Anyone want to post a picture of me burnuing my E pom poms? Thats exactly how I feel about this.


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## Bill R

Z'Loth said:


> Care to name the people who are the "DISH pom-pom cheerleaders"?


MobileBay is a good example and look at his responses and your (lack of) responses to HIM (and there are more posters like him). ANYONE that disagrees with posts from people like him, or says anything (like this board being DISH biased) about DBSTalk, gets attacked from both the poster and the moderator (I got the same thing from Scott a few weeks ago).

I have noticed that, lately, it is not nearly as bad as it was a few months ago. I am really glad to see people like Scott be a little more critical of DISH in the last few weeks. I do feel that the moderators, like yourself, could do a lot more to try to keep the board less biased (I noticed that YOU were only critical of MY post; you said nothing about MobileBay's post or his response).

I know you guys get a lot of "inside information" and are afraid of being TOO critical of DISH or you might get "cut off". It is good that you let the members do it but the people that run the board could do a LOT more to keep thiings "level". IMHO, ALL the people that have anything to do with running this board really do need to step back and look at things from some of the users prespective and not be so "tight" with DISH.


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## Unthinkable

MobileBay said:


> Just edited the title and added a question mark..... Sorry about that.


Thanks MB. For the sake of preserving accuracy, it looks better stated now. I post on a hockey forum where people frequently write up trade proposals with misleading subject titles which make fans sometimes assume on first glance its a done deal as opposed to it being an actual idea.


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## Randy_B

The fee cannot be for the guide because the E* DVR software doesn't care about what is in the guide. The DVR is dumb and blind to info in the guide. The guide is merely a easy to read interface for the consumer to provide instructions to the recorder. When you read the guide, you see "Cheers" is on at 7 pm tomorrow, you hit select or record and the DVR merely looks at the time reference set of the grid and sets a "record" for 7 pm 8/26. The guide is for YOUR convenience and referral only. Tivo and Replay on the other hand care GREATLY about all the info in the guide. That is the key premise of name based recording.

This doesn't make the Dish DVRs any less capable of recording as per your instruction, it just means it has different functionality. But the EPG simply has no role. For the 5xx and 721, they see the guide as a speadsheet with only column and row headers (date time group {DTG} and channel #), with all of the interior cells being empty.


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## pjmrt

Geronimo said:


> The 7100 and 72-- do have a fee.


that depends, I bought my 7200 under there "no fee" offer a couple years or so ago. No fee yet, but that may change in Dec


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## Inaba

Well now... can MobileBay be any less informed about the entire topic? It's almost like he went through line by line of the "facts" of the situation and took up the exact opposite position.

1. The dish DVRs do not use the EPG to record, they use timers... just like a normal, el-cheapo VCR from K-Mart.

2. The software on the dish DVRs is the worst software when compared to it's competition. Every other commercial DVR on the market (including the PCI card based ones) are far superior in features and stability than the Dish DVR software. If you "haven't seen anything better," you haven't seen any other PVR software.

3. The EPG on normal receivers (eg - non-pvr) is 3 days due to memory constraints and CPU power displaying the data. 9 days (I'd wager to say probably 21 days in reality) of EPG data is already "in the system" at Dish... all they have to do it push a button to send it. It doesn't cost them anything to do this in the grand scheme of things, and offering a bigger EPG is nothing but pure gravey to differentiate themselves from the competition. As far as the competition goes, DTV has 14+ day EPG on some non-PVR units, as well as PVR units. "Charging" for the EPG would be corporate suicide.

4. Printed copies of the guide vs electronic copies are apples to oranges. The data is already electronic, and thus does not cost anything to distribute (well, the cost is so small as to be inconsequential) - whereas it costs a great deal of money to print guides and mail them.

Bottom line is that Dish is charging for the PVRs just because they can make a quick buck. I won't pay a fee for this craptacular software, end of story. Since my 721 is "grandfathered in," I will remain a Dish customer until it dies probably. At that point, since I have a burning hatred of all things Hughes, I'll sadly be switching back to the Evil cable empire, it being the lesser of the three evils, strangely enough. It's a sad, sad day when the cable company is the least evil of the bunch.

Hopefully, though, by the time my 721 gives up the ghost Dish will have figured out charging for DVR = bad and will return to some semblance of sanity.


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## Peluso

I think two things have to happen before Dish and everyone else stops charging monthly fees.

1) Tivo, Replay, & Others need to figure out how to make enough money on the back end via licensing the software and selling the anonymous viewer data to broadcasters to make the company profitable. 

2)Fee free PVR's from APEX & other ultra low cost CE manufacturers have to become available at every major electronics retailers. 

In my mind, it'll take another two to five years before these competitive pressures force Dish to stop charging fees. The good news is I think your 721 will probably last that long.


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## Peluso

Inaba said:


> At that point, since I have a burning hatred of all things Hughes, I'll sadly be switching back to the Evil cable empire, it being the lesser of the three evils, strangely enough.


Just curious, why do you hate Hughes so much?


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## Inaba

> Just curious, why do you hate Hughes so much?


Well, it all started a long time ago... 

Way back in 1997, I purchased a DirecPC unit. Given the time and date, DirecPC was great. It was speedy and offered decent latency when compared to my dial up... even if the return path was still dial up. The charge was a bit much, but not unbearable.

Fast forward about a 8 months. The DirecPC interface card, with it's crappy drivers overheats. Not suprising, as these cards got HOT... real HOT. So it starts fritzing out every now and again. I call up Hughes/DirecTV and explain to them what I think is happening. Being a hardware engineer and having worked with PCs for almost 20 years, I have a pretty good understanding of electronics and all. As expected, the first people I talk to had absolutely no clue, but I run through their mindless database tests, all the while knowing it was BS.

I finally get passed along to tier 2 tech support, and this guy has a bit of a clue. We agree it's a faulty card, and he says he'll send me a new one.

Three weeks later... no card yet, I'm still hobbling along on this wretched card. I call them back, they have no idea what I'm talking about. I go through the exact same process again... and finally the guy promises to send me a new card.

A month later, I finally get the new card, box up the old card and send it back. I install the new card and it works about the same. Strange, methinks. I call them back. Without giving you all the gorey details, we decide at this point it's the LNB. By this time, I'm talking to upper level management about this crappy service and shoddy hardware. The manger rat says they are going to charge me $80 for a new LNB. I tell him like hell you are. This unit is less than a year old, you'll fix it for free or I'll return the whole thing to the store.

He finally relents... a month later, I get a new PCB for the LNB. If you've ever seen the original DirecPC oval dish's LNBs, you'd now what a ridiculous monstrosity this is. I have to torque off the old LNB reciever and attach it to the new PCB. This is not a trivial process, but fortunately I had the tools to accomplish this. I slap everything back together and low-and-behold, everything is working as it should.

About this time, I decide to trade in my Mustang Cobra for one of them shiney new Chevrolet Corvette C5's everyone is talking about. (Bear with me, this plays a part later)

Things are humming along for about a month, all is well. Suddenly, out of the blue, my transfer rates drop to about 3 - 5k/sec at best. I'm thinkin' WTF?! I reboot the computer... same problem, so I let it sit for the night. I come back the next day, transfer rates are fine. After about 20 minutes of surfing/downloading/etc... the transfer rates go through the floor again... it stays like this all night, I finally end up calling tech support again... we run through the usual list of things that aren't wrong with the unit.

The tech passes me up to Tier 2, and after going through yet more things that aren't wrong with the unit, he says "Oh, you're bandwidth is being limited due to our new 'Fair Access Policy'."

"Excuse me?" I say.

'Yes, we have implimented a new policy, the heavy bandwidth users will have their bandwidth restricted to slow speeds based on a certain formula depending on their usage" he says.

"So you're telling me that you're advertising a 'High speed internet access' device that is anything but? What is this formula you use?" I say unto him.

"We can't tell you what the formula is, otherwise people would try to circumvent it."

At this point, I'm fairly livid and end the call until I calm down a bit. The following day, I call back to speak to some mangement goons. They essentially tell me the same thing, so I demand a credit, since I'm not getting whta I paid for. For some strange reason, they agree and I get a couple months credit. This gives me time to consider my next move.

A couple months pass, and I hobble along, trying to keep the FAP at bay. My shiney new C5 is in the shop at least twice for some minor problems. It has developed a really annoying squeak as well; no mechanic can track it down.

DirecPC offers a new service... Newsgroup push. This was one of the only good ideas ever to come out of DirecPC in the history of it's existance. It solved a good portion of my FAP problem as long as I took it easy on the downloads. Fast forward several months... the squeak in my C5 hasn't gone away, it's really annoying to everyone involved. It's been through 4 dealer shops trying to track it down, as well as a few more minor problems.

The FAP noose continues to tighten on the DirecPC folks, now getting hit with the FAP is regular occurance on even small downloads... the FAP succeeds in making the DirecPC service virtually useless for anything but web surfing. Latency has gone through the roof. What use to be 200ms ping times climb to 700 - 1500ms. Software drivers get worse. News push start archiving messages for only 7 hours or so. Card is still blazingly hot. Plastic on the dish starts to fade and crack in the sun.

Fast forward 2 years... I've long since cancled my DirecPC service after taking beating after beating from customer service reps, wonton charges on my credit card for replaced parts that shouldn't have been there (they were eventually credited back), etc... My C5 still has that damned squeak. A mechanic in Kansas tracks down the problem... a faulty weld on the catalytic convertor. Since the car is now out of warranty, GM won't replace it... fortunately, I have an extended warranty... but I'm still stuck with my deductible. This was an on going problem since the car rolled off the lot, and GM won't fix it ?? BS.

Fast forward again to 2003. I've been a Dish customer for years now, ever since I cancled my DirecPC service, which included my DirecTV service, I switched to Dish and was happy with them, the customer service was always first rate, even if the compression ratio on the Superstations and various other channels left a lot to be desired. The monthly pricing plans were also very reasonable for what you get. Dish = number one in my book. One day, at my office, I receive a letter from DirecTV. I'm being sued! Yes, I'm being sued because I bought an ISO programmer for smart cards for a project I was working on in... 2001! Oh yes, DTV in their infinite wisdom decides to sue me for this, even though I was authorized and ordered the unit under on behalf of my company... fortunately, the major TELECOMMUNICATIONS company I work for as an engineer looks at the lawsuit and laughs. I now have a ravenous team of telecom lawyers beating the ever loving S__T out of DTV's pathetic little lawfirm. None the less, the very audacity DTV has in this action is utterly ridiculous.

DirecPC = Huges = GM. Nothing good has ever come out of GM as far as I'm concerned. The company embodies shoddy workmanship, mismangement, poor performance and crappy products. They overcharge for everything they produce. The C5 is not a $45,000 car, it's a $25,000 car. DirecPC is not a $80/mo service, it's a $20/mo service. Sueing customers or prior customers blindly is one more example of mismanagement and greedy money grubbing by a worthless company. GM has never done anything right by me, and I will never purchase another GM product. The only thing I can do is vote with my wallet, and by god that's what I'm going to do! Not one red cent of mine will ever go to GM or any related company again.

Yes... this is probably more than you ever wanted to know about this subject!


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## Bob Haller

Peluso said:


> I think two things have to happen before Dish and everyone else stops charging monthly fees.
> 
> In my mind, it'll take another two to five years before these competitive pressures force Dish to stop charging fees. The good news is I think your 721 will probably last that long.


Remember Charlie said no fee on existing receivers AT THIS TIME!

Tomorrow they could add them.


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## minnow

Anyone who had been around for a period of time both here and more notabily at DBSFORUMS would have seen the transformation in Bill R's feeling regarding E*. As a new member, MobileRay probably hasn't had that experience. Bill R. was the go-to guy for Dishplayer problems and fixes and he had an inside hook at E* that provided some great information for many years. As someone involved in both of these forums for a long long time, I've seen many of the E* originals(Bob Haller, to name another) throughly get disgusted with the current practices of Dish. Some of these have gone over to Direct(Dan Collins for one), while others have had their fill of the Charlie Show and returned to cable(jbuff). These individuals were not your average run of the mill types either !! When I see these very knowledgable DBS forefathers turn their back on Dish, then I sense a company in big trouble. So in my opinion Bill R. is right on the money on this issue. He has more experience and credibility than 100 "new Members"


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## MobileBay

MobileBay said:


> New Fee for DishNetwork Guide?
> 
> I have been reading the threads here on DBS Talk about the new PVR / DVR Fees since
> they were announced by DishNetwork. Based on the comments posted on the many
> threads concerning DVR Fee's I get the impression that most think the new Monthly DVR
> Fee is for the Software Operating System in the DVR. I don't see it that way. I feel the
> DVR Fee (while the name is misleading) is actually a Monthly Fee for DishNetworks 9
> day (EPG) Electronic Program Guide.
> 
> DishNetworks EPG is the root of what makes all of their Satellite Receivers soo easy
> operate..... The EPG coupled with the technology of the DVR, indeed makes recording
> programs and Time Shifted Viewing of Programs a Breeze..... Without DishNetworks
> EPG a DVR would be nothing more than a Digital version of a VCR.
> 
> I will add this.... The EPG on Non DVR Receivers, as we all know, is very limited.... but
> there is no fee for the EPG on those receivers.... well not yet lol
> 
> A Little Comparison - EPG vs Printed Guide
> 
> For the DishNetwork customer that buys a New Generation DVR (when it becomes
> available) and subscribes to the Americas Top 150 Package a $5.00 Monthly Fee will
> apply for the 9 day EPG...... $60.00 a year
> 
> If you were to pay the cover price for a printed program guide like TV Guide you would
> pay about $104.00 per year or about $8.70 a month. An annual subscription to T.V. Guide
> is much less.... $39.60 or about $3.30 a month. While a printed program guide like T.V.
> Guide will provide some program listings, It won't begin to list all the channels available
> on DishNetwork and It Won't work in conjunction with the software timers on your
> receiver and will never be as up to date or as accurate as the information provided by
> DishNetworks EPG...... and yes I know the EPG has not yet updated TNN to Spike lol
> 
> Like anyone else, I hate the idea of an additional fee. But the $5.00 a Month Fee
> DishNetwork will be charging for their 9 Day EPG on New Generation DVR Receivers is
> the best value they have going. With one exception The Fee should only be charged once
> per account.
> 
> I think DishNetwork offers a great line of Products, Programming. and Services. Sure
> there are bugs in the Software and waiting for Software Updates, New Products and
> Services is often a pain. But, Overall I have not seen anything better.
> 
> If you have not experienced the 9 day EPG ya don't know what your missing. While I
> love my DVR, by far its best feature is the 9 day EPG.
> 
> 1- PVR 721 and 2 - 4700's


Oh Well Guess I am wrong lol But my origanal post on this thread did generate some conversation...... even some of the post were of a constructive nature 

Just got this off the dishnetwork web site..... The new name for the DVR Fee is - DISH Video-On-Demand Service

DISH Player - DVR 510 
DISH Player - DVR 510 receivers use advanced digital television recording and playback technology to let viewers choose how they will watch television, whether it is skipping through commercials on recorded programs, rewinding sports to make your own instant replays or pausing live TV when the phone rings. DISH Video-On Demand Service Fees apply - see chart below.
DISH Player - DVR 510 DISH Video-On-Demand Service 
Capable of recording up to 100 hours without videotape*

Automatically record your favorite shows

Skip recorded commercials Pause, Replay and Reschedule programs

120 gigabyte hard drive

Parental lock-out features

DISH Video-On-Demand Service 
America's Everything Pak .................................. No Charge
America's Top 150 / DISH Latino Max ............... $4.98/mo.
America's Top 100 / DISH Latino Dos ............... $4.98/mo.
America's Top 50 / DISH Latino ........................ $9.99/mo.


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## Peluso

Inaba said:


> Well, it all started a long time ago...
> 
> Way back in 1997, I purchased a DirecPC unit.
> 
> ....HUGE SNIP.....
> 
> Yes... this is probably more than you ever wanted to know about this subject!


Well i'm impressed that you took so much time to share this with me.

On the whole I'd probably be as upset as you are. I know GM and it suffers from the same thing all big companies suffer from: It's size is so big that the only way they can measure success is via profits. That kind of pressure eventually destroys customer service like an ocean will eventually destroy any structure that opposes it.

I wouldn't be so quick to knock DirecTV because of your DirecPC experience. You were definitely an early adopter and the problems you are referring to are very similar to those you would run into in any early adopter situation.

The legal thing is another story. I can't believe they did that, and i'm happy that they got their asses burnt for it. It's like listening to the RIAA all over again. If DirecTV just focused on getting better security built into all the new boxes, then they wouldn't have to worry about law suites, just like if the Recording Industry concentrated on the new high end audio formats, MP3's will eventually become a non issue.

Would you consider using them again a few years after Hughes gets bought by another company and the new companies corporate culture starts to take over?


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## Inaba

> I wouldn't be so quick to knock DirecTV because of your DirecPC experience. You were definitely an early adopter and the problems you are referring to are very similar to those you would run into in any early adopter situation.


From a technical standpoint, DirecTV is superior to Dish in terms of receivers and programming. I wish it wern't so, but DTV receivers are leaps and bounds ahead of anything Dish currently has in the market or even in the pipeline over the next year or so... and that is just comparing Dish's "new" stuff to DTV's currently available stuff. Whether or not DTV will capitalize on this and produce even technically better products in the coming year is anyones guess.

As for DirecPC, the technical problems I could easily and gladly overlook for the exact reason you mention; the early adopter syndrome. My main problem was the FAP. It was utterly ridiculous and overly draconian in implimentation (Can you be "overly draconian" or is that redundant?). That was pure management money grubbing and had nothing to do with technical issues. Huges did not want to put out the infrastructure (IE - spend money) to provide what the service promised, and instead chose to utilize existing infrastructure (which is free!) and cheat customers out of the promised end product, hoping that no one would notice.

In addition to that, they need to make a special field on customer records: One that says "This customer knows what he's talking about" and then not talk down to the customer when they call in with technical issues. It was fairly obvious that the majority of the time I called in for tech support, the guy or gal on the other end was reading from a pre-scripted database of common problems... and god forbid if I deviated from that script. Half the time, I knew what the problem was, and even how to fix it... I just needed to talk to the right people... but I had to sit through stupid test and stupid test. It got so bad at one point, I would just rattle off what they wanted to hear from memory until I got passed along to someone useful.



> Would you consider using them again a few years after Hughes gets bought by another company and the new companies corporate culture starts to take over?


If it wasn't for the lawsuit, I probably would consider using DirecTV in the future under the right circumstances, but I can't imagine any circumstances where I would ever pay another penny to DirecTV as a corporate entity now, with this frivolous lawsuit. If I didn't have a deep-pocketed Fortune 500 company with hundreds of technically inclined lawyers backing me up on this, I can only imagine how much money I'd be spending on legal defense. I feel deeply for the poor slobs that don't have any such backup that are getting sued frivolously now. No doubt a good majority of them are guilty as charged, but that's not an excuse to financially ruin the minority of innocent people that get caught in the tuna net. Even winning the case flat out would cost a substantial chunk of money. I don't think my conscience can ever reconcile paying DTV again, and I feel really good about my switch to Dish when I cancled my DTV/DPC in 1998 or 1999 whenever it was; it was the right choice at the time and the lawsuit just cinches the decision up tight.

DTV would have to be purchased by an unrelated company and the entire management structure from director level to president & CEO would have to be summarily fired and replaced before I'd ever feel comfortable looking at them again.


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## harsh

Bill R said:


> If you haven't seen anything better it is because you haven't looked very hard. The DirecTV TiVO is a FAR better product (in stability in features) then ANY DISH DVR and, depending on what programming package you subscribe to, is cheaper than the DISH DVR fee.


Okay, I'll bite. Show us examples of how a DirecTiVo setup is cheaper.

My thinking is that you're going to have to concoct some fairly unreasonable matchups to make it happen. You must understand up front that I'm not going to accept any theory involving an AT50 offering as there is no corresponding TC package.

I'll allow that if, as some here do, the example household has three or more DVRs, that it could add up, but the programming package must be commesurate with what those who have DVRs coming out of their ears subscribe to (typically AEP).

The burden of proof is on you to offer some reasonable scenarios.

BTW, Loading up on adult channels, premium sports packages and/or HD packages probably doesn't constitute a fair comparison either.


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## Bill R

harsh said:


> Okay, I'll bite. Show us examples of how a DirecTiVo setup is cheaper.


I'll admit that the monthly programing packages are failrly close but I think that you have to take into account the PER receiver DVOD fee. THAT could make a BIG difference over the life of the receiver.

The DirecTV TiVo software is FAR better than what ANY DISH DVR has (more stable too) which, I feel, is VERY important. The named based recording is a feature I really miss on the 721 (my DishPlayer has it as do ALL DirecTV TiVos). The DISH DVRs don't have anything like season pass or wishlists either.

I think what will really hurt DISH is that they plan on charging the DVOD fee PER receiver. I don't feel the marketplace is going to buy into that.


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## toad57

MobileBay said:


> Ok Ya say the fee is not for the guide but for the DVR service. Maybe you are right but if you are right it makes no sense to me.
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> Call the fee by what name ya want but the bottom line is the EPG provides the DVR Operating Software with the information it needs for the automatic recording functions of programs the viewer has selected to record.


If it were the guide we were/are paying for via a fee (and not the software features) then wouldn't non-recording Dish receivers have a fee as well?

Heck, if the fee were based on the guide info then subscribers to larger channel packages should _pay a higher fee_ since they use far more guide info than (say) an AT50 customer.


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## harsh

Bill R said:


> I'll admit that the monthly programing packages are failrly close but I think that you have to take into account the PER receiver DVOD fee. THAT could make a BIG difference over the life of the receiver.


But as I put forth in my challenge, how many of the people who have multiple DVRs are going to have to pay _any_ DVR fee with Dish?


> The DirecTV TiVo software is FAR better than what ANY DISH DVR has (more stable too) which, I feel, is VERY important. The named based recording is a feature I really miss on the 721 (my DishPlayer has it as do ALL DirecTV TiVos). The DISH DVRs don't have anything like season pass or wishlists either.


You'll find little or no dispute here. Dish has a long way to go in terms of modern DVR functionality but there are two things to remember:

1. You stand a reasonable chance of not having to pay as much money for everything with Dish
2. There is every likelihood that DirecTV will raise their DirecTiVo fee at some point. I have no inside information, but I would be willing to wager that come the new year, they'll either up the household fee to at least $9.99 or go to a per DVR pricing scheme.


> I think what will really hurt DISH is that they plan on charging the DVOD fee PER receiver. I don't feel the marketplace is going to buy into that.


You've stated that opinion repeatedly, but you've failed to make a strong case that it will apply to many Dish customers. You probably need to show how anyone who is subscribing to AT100 or AT150 is going to need to have three or four DVR units.


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## matthinz

I have to say we've all gone insane. Does it REALLY matter what we are being charged for?


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## bendor

minnow, thank you for that, I was going to post the same thing re: Bill R. Been a member of both boards since their beginning and have found Bill to be the most help of anyone. Thank you Bill R!


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## JohnH

Me thinks personal attacks are in this thread.

Me also thinks the hardware and software are not cheap when compared to a plain ole receiver. So, pay up or don't get one.


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## xgrep

matthinz said:


> I have to say we've all gone insane. Does it REALLY matter what we are being charged for?


Nope, not to me. The main thing that matters is my total price compared to the competition. In my situation, the competition wins (for the moment). The other thing that matters is the *future* total price compared to the competition. While one can never predict with certainty, the trend at Dish (again, in *my* situation) is to become even more expensive. I monitor the situation regularly, and change providers as it suits my needs.

This purely financial approach is to the detriment of providers, who would prefer to lock subs in with various technical hooks or with the softer "brand loyalty" approach.

x


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