# DirecTV interface performance / MIPS SoC limitations? Frame-buffer bottleneck?



## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

DirecTV's HD UI was a godsend to utilizing the service compared to the old low resolution, low color palette, clunky blue UI. I really like the look of the DirecTV interface and it is very professional, loaded with nice features and easy to learn.

If I had one major complaint, it would be the screen draw performance and apparent lack of OpenGL 2D graphics hardware acceleration. What I mean is if you push menu / info or navigate on screen... many screens do not softly transition and seem to abruptly draw (or exit) after delay.

I know we are not dealing with the sheer power of multi-core ARM processors, like those in our smartphones. From my understanding, DirecTV uses Broadcom based MIPS reference designs. Looking at Broadcom's featureset, they include things like OpenGL 2.0 and DirectFB (Frame Buffer) support. Direct writes to the frame buffer could really speed up the HD user interface and provide that little bit of finesse and polish that your accustomed to seeing when working within the UI of Apple IOS or Android JellyBean (Project Butter optimized 60 fps triple frame buffering). Think of the smooth page swipes and all the crazy smooth effects & graphics in games and applications.

I just think if DirecTV would utilize some of these enhancements, hardware accelerate and better utilize the frame buffer, some of these performance hangups we see would be eliminated thanks to more efficient code and hardware acceleration offloading frame drawing effects from the main core processing.

There is a real good demo of DirectFB running on Broadcom 97425 MIPS based platform here:
http://www.directfb.org/?path=Main/Videos&page=0&video=ilixi_compositor_on_bcm97425

The video was rendered on the Broadcom MIPS SoC at 720p and its smooth as butter. If the DirecTV user interaction / frame draw routines utilized this kind of acceleration, not only would the operating system feel smoother with buttery screen transition effects, it would also optimize processing so the overall experience would be faster and more efficient.

I'm not sure what the actual DMIPS numbers are for currently deployed DirecTV DVR's and HD Set top boxes... but there has to be some headroom for improvement. I do realize that the upcoming HR44 and future STB's will surely have more processing power to accommodate UI enhancements while providing speed and efficiency in accessing DirecTV features on screen. I just look at that new Roku box and envy the nice smooth interface, yet the system itself is smaller than any DirecTV receiver.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

The smoothness of sliding back and forth between screens or even how quickly the info bar slides up/down as shown on the Google Fiber TV DVR review would be nice to have:





Also look how smooth the guide and the UI elements scroll around on Xfinity X1:





Why can't DirecTV's beautiful HD guide simply just add this kind of quickness and flow? I think it would feel faster and more complete.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

You are should invest your time into all DVR tasks ordinal, not fixating to one small part of its load like GUI.
Sluggish DTV is defined most likely many tasks include CPU hungry DB management and retrieving data from many DB; add to that Java system applets and you'll be close to the analysis.
A lot of info you will find in system logs off the drive. I found DFS Explorer is good for that if you're not Linux, but Windows "addict".


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

I pay close attention to the GUI because its performance seems lackluster compared to competing providers. Ok it has some smooth scrolling in the all movies poster screen, and once in awhile you can get "more info" to slide down from the banner nicely... But it's missing graphical finesse (flow, fluidity, motion, whatever you want to call it). These types of animation /
Transition graphics libraries can be performed in a very lightweight DirectFB library in modern Broadcom based SoC's. 

Also as indicated, not just in devkit, but real world working deployments (such as Xfinity X1 and Google Fiber) it is done.

You do provide a good point and I do have an sata to USB adapter I could connect an HR drive to my laptop without removing it from its cage. It would be interesting to see behind the scenes what causes the hardware to react so slowly. I sometimes speculate that the "one size fits all" approach is partial to blame. Whereas different firmware builds compiled and optimized for each model including low level hardware acceleration drivers would improve things quite a bit. Now that takes longer to build, maintain, troubleshoot and deploy... But maybe they could modularize the I/O and video drivers and maintain it separately vs the guide.

I do wonder how much extra horsepower the HR44 will have for future enhancements like explained in this thread. Newer Broadcom based SoC's support OpenGL and Adobe AIR for TV.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

I’m not sure the new HDGUI was a ‘godsend’. I’d much rather go back to the old GUI and get the speed my HR24s used to have. All we gained was a color change and higher resolution text. No more information on the screen than before and all kinds of trouble that they still seem to be working out since the upgrade to the HDGUI…. Just not worth it if you ask me!

I suspect the trouble is in the inefficient firmware written by DirecTV rather than in the hardware but that’s just a guess. I say that because supposedly DirecTV receivers cost more to build than Dish Network receivers (try to buy an HR24 and compare that cost to a Dish Network 722k purchase) and Dish Network receivers are noticeably quicker at just about everything.

I think the root cause is that whoever is in charge of DirecTV engineering doesn’t consider ‘speed’ to be a priority. Maybe they are correct but I’d give up all but the basic functions and MRV if the speed could be at least doubled..... Or come close to Dish Network speed..


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Not even smart phones use the CPU to do their graphics functions. Most all of them have some sort of GPU that handles painting the display and other graphics oriented tasks.

DIRECTV could tell us what the problem is but they're likely disinclined for competitive reasons. To attempt to reason what the underlying problem is without a lot more detailed information is pointless.

It is also flawed logic to assume that OpenGL is there to do anything other than make code more portable. OpenGL support in and of itself doesn't guarantee fast. Of course this assumes that OpenGL is even utilized and that may or may not be the case.

It is rather likely that trying to get the same software to cover decidedly different platforms is a big part of the issue. Having to write to the least common denominator will always be a drain.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Dish is utilizing DFB part of BCM chips.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

DirectFB is a thin library that provides hardware graphics acceleration, input device handling and abstraction, integrated windowing system with support for translucent windows and multiple display layers, not only on top of the Linux Framebuffer Device. It is a complete hardware abstraction layer with software fallbacks for every graphics operation that is not supported by the underlying hardware. DirectFB adds graphical power to embedded systems and sets a new standard for graphics under Linux.

My theory is not only would this allow the UI to look nice in operation (it already looks nice in stationary pictures)... I feel that it may take some processing load off of the CPU to free it for other tasks.

These SoC's have some degree of video graphics acceleration. Be it a Roku, TiVo, X1, DirecTV, Dish Network, SmartTV, IP STB, etc. How well it's used greatly varies with how well it's programmed.

With moores law on our side, future stb's should continue to improve with speed, features and effects. Until then I still think there's a little breathing room left, especially on DVRs where extra features can be cached to the hard drive.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

DirectFB is a Linux Hardware Abstraction Layer (software, comparable in principle to DirectX) so I suppose it is inappropriate to state that it is "part of" the Broadcom chips. Again, HALs don't guarantee swift operation; they exist largely to speed cross-platform software development.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

perhaps I should rephrase - it's a part of Broadcom HW/SW suite; the company does provide drivers with each new revision of any own chip to OEM like DTV or echostar or cable DVR developers.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

But what's the bottom line? If Dish Network can make a must faster more responsive DVR for less money why can't DirecTV? I guess I just don't understand?


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Mike Greer;3195369 said:


> But what's the bottom line? If Dish Network can make a must faster more responsive DVR for less money why can't DirecTV? I guess I just don't understand?


That's a good question. You'd almost think Dish benefitted from some kind of public beta program where you could opt in and download weekly builds of software. Based on feedback it would be used to improve the system. But I don't think Dish has anything like that.... ;-)


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

cypherx said:


> That's a good question. You'd almost think Dish benefitted from some kind of public beta program where you could opt in and download weekly builds of software. Based on feedback it would be used to improve the system. But I don't think Dish has anything like that.... ;-)


:lol::lol::lol:


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> perhaps I should rephrase - it's a part of Broadcom HW/SW suite; the company does provide drivers with each new revision of any own chip to OEM like DTV or echostar or cable DVR developers.


So what is DIRECTV to do about the machines that are based on hardware from manufacturers other than Broadcom and how do they mitigate performance differences in a way that customers aren't likely to rebel?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

cypherx said:


> That's a good question. You'd almost think Dish benefitted from some kind of public beta program where you could opt in and download weekly builds of software. Based on feedback it would be used to improve the system. But I don't think Dish has anything like that.... ;-)


If the Echostar methodology is delivering better software, why add the complication of an approach that hasn't proven to produce an even better product?

Public betas of proprietary products are typically more about showing off technology than identifying and fixing bugs. For Microsoft's part, if something doesn't work well in public beta, it is often jettisoned from the release version.


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## Rtm (Oct 18, 2011)

Clunky blue ui? The ui is at least 95+% the same in the HD ui.......

Better aesthetics, slower speed =~= worse aesthetics, faster speed

I know what you're saying though it feels like a java applet.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Well maybe the BCM7346 will add a smooth, liquid like feel to the UI that is not only modern but quick and lag free.

BCM7346 specs here:
http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/Satellite-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7346

Some key takeaways:
-A broad array of time-to-market web-based connected home STB software applications environments including Adobe Flash® Platform for TV, Webkit HMTL 5.0, Java, Nokia's Qt Framework including QtWebkit, DLNA 1.5, and DirectFB application libraries

-3D graphics engine for an advanced user interface

-High performance and cost effective DDR3 memory providing significant cost and energy savings over DDR2 memory

-Unique HD FastRTV™ channel change acceleration technology that improves channel change speeds by up to 500 percent.

I would like to see the fluid smooth UI on DirecTV that enforces context and speed like XFinity X1


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

probably next decade  
why invest more money into development/manufacturing of new DVR, if 100% of current models (include old one) play channels just fine; 
switching channels slow ? guide is slow ? too many ads ? 
well, it's not a main function of the STB !  

relax and enjoy your movie/event not its functionality ...


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

I dunno... Why does Apple invest money in developing smooth software on the iPad / iPhone? Or why did Google spend so much time in "project butter" to improve android's performance (60fps smooth triple buffering).

Why did Microsoft spend so much development in Aero? Then when they did Windows 8, they still spent a lot of time on the looks and transitioning in and out of screens (live tiles / apps).

It's all about the overall experience. Does a graphic transition make it faster? Maybe not... But it provides a sense of context and makes it "feel" faster by visually executing an action at the push of a button.

See:
http://www.ui-transitions.com/#home

I guess I just take modern day systems for granted.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I wouldn't take seriously the examples in the thread about DVR, one purpose device.


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## Rtm (Oct 18, 2011)

cypherx said:


> I dunno... Why does Apple invest money in developing smooth software on the iPad / iPhone? Or why did Google spend so much time in "project butter" to improve android's performance (60fps smooth triple buffering).
> 
> Why did Microsoft spend so much development in Aero? Then when they did Windows 8, they still spent a lot of time on the looks and transitioning in and out of screens (live tiles / apps).
> 
> ...


*+1*

Windows 8 is horrible but the performance is there


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Rtm;3196845 said:


> Windows 8 is horrible but the performance is there


Agreed. Just tested it but I HAD to install classic shell to get anything done. Windows 7 works well enough for me to not have to purchase an upgrade.


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

I just watched the Xfinity video. WOW that thing works nice.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

P Smith said:


> probably next decade
> *why invest more money into development/manufacturing of new DVR, if 100% of current models (include old one) play channels just fine;
> switching channels slow ? guide is slow ? too many ads ?
> well, it's not a main function of the STB !  *
> relax and enjoy your movie/event not its functionality ...


All those things you listed effect the main function of the box!

And Directvs HR's Have been ""FIXING"" The same issues since 2006.
If anything Money should be dumped in getting these things much more bug free.

I love the responses here because here is a guy who started this thread with some down to earth non bashing recommendations for improving these HRs, and the same old" _OH theres nothing wrong with these things_" 
line we get everytime around here.

That gets old!
Directv has the slowest buggiest equipment. 
Show me a box that's slower. I want to see!


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

cypherx said:


> I dunno... Why does Apple invest money in developing smooth software on the iPad / iPhone? Or why did Google spend so much time in "project butter" to improve android's performance (60fps smooth triple buffering).
> 
> Why did Microsoft spend so much development in Aero? Then when they did Windows 8, they still spent a lot of time on the looks and transitioning in and out of screens (live tiles / apps).
> 
> ...


You should contact someone at Directv Directly. Send an Email to CEO Office , they will call you back within 4 hours! They are 2 for 2 on that for me.:icon_cool


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

damondlt said:


> Directv has the slowest buggiest equipment.
> Show me a box that's slower. I want to see!


Last time I saw one, the TWC Navigator was pretty bad.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

dpeters11 said:


> Last time I saw one, the TWC Navigator was pretty bad.


Maybe we can Youtube it?

Scientific Atlanta boxes from out Blue ridge cable were very responsive.
Dish 722k I had for 3 years lighting quick and loaded with so many features.

Sure we love Directv, we love the receiver options, programming options, Sometimes the Price, But that doesn't mean were should have to over look the same Receiver issues. 
Directv wants to be named the best, then nothing should be unturned.

I hear the same things all time, I love my Directv, But the receivers are slow, sometimes they freeze.

Look at the threads here, look at the reviews.

I'm all for a good solution to help Directv's HRs


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Hopper commercial focuses on its 3X speed advantage over Genie

Now DirecTV could invest money in optimizing the code to make it faster, or waste money on advertising against Hopper. I think they should sink money into making the platform fast.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

cypherx said:


> Hopper commercial focuses on its 3X speed advantage over Genie
> 
> Now DirecTV could invest money in optimizing the code to make it faster, or waste money on advertising against Hopper. I think they should sink money into making the platform fast.


I think the UI should be left alone or we'll suffer the consequences we always do with any major changes. All I ever wanted was something better than a VCR. You have to admit the HRs are better than any VCR. Gotta be careful what you wish for with D*.

Rich


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

cypherx said:


> Hopper commercial focuses on its 3X speed advantage over Genie
> 
> Now DirecTV could invest money in optimizing the code to make it faster, or waste money on advertising against Hopper. I think they should sink money into making the platform fast.


You'd think that Dish Network would be using the 'speed' of their receivers in all their marketing... At least in the bullet point comparisons with each commercial.

I saw a Hopper for the first time last week and it beats the pants off even my HR24s. I'd say their 3x faster is pretty conservative. It's pretty crazy to hit a button on the remote and get instant response from the receiver!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Rich said:


> I think the UI should be left alone or we'll suffer the consequences we always do with any major changes. All I ever wanted was something better than a VCR. You have to admit the HRs are better than any VCR. Gotta be careful what you wish for with D*.
> 
> Rich


I'm with you Rich, the last thing I want DirecTV doing is another major overhaul like they did with the HDGUI. Even the simple updates since the HDGUI make old problems return only to be fixed (again) over the next few updates. Getting pretty old...

I think the fix is to just upgrade the hardware - leave the software as-is and speed up the slow-software by increasing the speed of the hardware. Maybe that's what they've done with the HR44 - I guess it won't be too long and we'll know.

Short of a hardware fix maybe DirecTV could steal some engineers from Dish Network!


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## ejbvt (Aug 14, 2011)

I have never experience such terrible guides as the the Time Warner Cable guide. You haven't seen buggy, laggy, or unresponsive until you've used that thing.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rich said:


> You have to admit the HRs are better than any VCR.


My JVC VCR skips commercials.


> Gotta be careful what you wish for with D*.


In this, you speak the truth.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Mike Greer said:


> I think the fix is to just upgrade the hardware - leave the software as-is and speed up the slow-software by increasing the speed of the hardware.


This would appear to be what DIRECTV was thinking with regard to the HR24 prior to the HD GUI. The HD GUI unequivocally proved this theory to be hogwash.

The answer lies in writing good code; not Rapid Application Development code and not jack-of-all-trades code.

Efficient and technically sound code will cost, but it will allow them to continue to recycle hardware that is otherwise going to have to be end-of-lifed for no other reason than it doesn't have the horsepower to run crappy code..


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

harsh;3201176 said:


> The answer lies in writing good code; not Rapid Application Development code and not jack-of-all-trades code.


Kind if like how a flash based website / game can bring google chrome to 100% CPU usage and an entire older PC to a crawl?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

cypherx said:


> Kind if like how a flash based website / game can bring google chrome to 100% CPU usage and an entire older PC to a crawl?


I was thinking more along the lines of Microsoft's CPU-devouing .net "technology". Flash is an admirable attempt at bringing widely disparate hardware and software platforms to a common multimedia code base.

DVRs don't need this so much as they're mostly running Linux variations with relatively comparable hardware give or take a some high-zoot graphics rendering hardware. There are trade-offs between having a single codeset across all platforms and having separate sets tailored to their respective platforms.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

harsh said:


> This would appear to be what DIRECTV was thinking with regard to the HR24 prior to the HD GUI. The HD GUI unequivocally proved this theory to be hogwash.
> 
> The answer lies in writing good code; not Rapid Application Development code and not jack-of-all-trades code.
> 
> Efficient and technically sound code will cost, but it will allow them to continue to recycle hardware that is otherwise going to have to be end-of-lifed for no other reason than it doesn't have the horsepower to run crappy code..


Maybe so but why the HDGUI update then? They screwed up by going with the HDGUI software 'upgrade'. What did we get out of it? Color change and maybe crisp text that wasn't blurry to begin with. No more guide info or anything - just 9 months of debugging in an attempt to get back to a little less performance than before the HDGUI.....

Writing good code may come if the number of subs stops increasing or actually reverses course and goes down. Maybe they'll hire someone in management with a little pride - you never know! Until then it will be business as usual. You'd think 'Good code' would make sense but they are not hurting for money or subs so 'Mediocre code' is just fabulous.

If I had anything to do with DirecTV management I would be embarrassed - especially with the C31 clients... Talk about under-performance - wow - they should be ashamed! :eek2:


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

harsh said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of Microsoft's CPU-devouing .net "technology". *Flash is an admirable attempt* at bringing widely disparate hardware and software platforms to a common multimedia code base.
> 
> DVRs don't need this so much as they're mostly running Linux variations with relatively comparable hardware give or take a some high-zoot graphics rendering hardware. There are trade-offs between having a single codeset across all platforms and having separate sets tailored to their respective platforms.


Maybe 'admirable attempt' but a failed attempt noless. The sooner Flash goes away the better the entire PC world will be. With Flash and Java general troubles and massive security problems I for one will be happy when there is not trace of them left on any computer anywhere!


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> You'd think that Dish Network would be using the 'speed' of their receivers in all their marketing... At least in the bullet point comparisons with each commercial.
> 
> I saw a Hopper for the first time last week and it beats the pants off even my HR24s. I'd say their 3x faster is pretty conservative. It's pretty crazy to hit a button on the remote and get instant response from the receiver!


I agree, the Dish Hopper is very fast in comparison to anything HR! And the newest model with Sling is even faster than the original, and done on a full GUI interface too!

But I do miss the simplicity of the D* GUI and the lists. E* has iconified every damned thing and it is a not pretty when trying to manage some things that lists are perfect for.

I have to wonder how Dish is able to get things so fast, and D* just doesn't seem to be able to.

The single thing that is the same between them when it comes to speed is channel changing. If the HR is set to Native Off and a single resolution, then the channel change speed is the same as Dish's equipment since that is all they offer.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> Writing good code may come if the number of subs stops increasing or actually reverses course and goes down. Maybe they'll hire someone in management with a little pride - you never know! Until then it will be business as usual. You'd think 'Good code' would make sense but they are not hurting for money or subs so 'Mediocre code' is just fabulous.


I think that for the majority of customers, even though the HRxx's are all pretty slow in comparison to Dish's equipment, it just isn't enough of an issue. For us geeks here it is something to talk about nearly every day!!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

lparsons21 said:


> I agree, the Dish Hopper is very fast in comparison to anything HR! And the newest model with Sling is even faster than the original, and done on a full GUI interface too!
> 
> But I do miss the simplicity of the D* GUI and the lists. E* has iconified every damned thing and it is a not pretty when trying to manage some things that lists are perfect for.
> 
> ...


I also like the simplicity of DirecTV's GUI etc. Just think how fast Dish Networks GUI would be if it was the simple GUI DirecTV has. Now that's what I'm talkin' about!

I don't know how Dish does it either - and apparently for less hardware cost per box. It is cheaper to buy (and actually own) Dish Network hardware than DirecTV's hardware. Quite a mystery!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

lparsons21 said:


> I think that for the majority of customers, even though the HRxx's are all pretty slow in comparison to Dish's equipment, it just isn't enough of an issue. For us geeks here it is something to talk about nearly every day!!


Agreed - unless it costs DirecTV subs it isn't going to change. Although the C31 clients bring performance to a new low. I think even people that don't usually notice or care about the speed are wondering what the hell is going on with those things! Even worse apparently the C41 clients are not any faster....:nono:


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

It's more than just slow GUI code. I can press all three channel numbers plus enter before I see the GUI do anything. Surely a slow GUI can't be solely responsible for being unable to put a number on the screen before I can hit two more numbers and hit enter. Maybe the CPU enters an overly aggressive power save mode and takes a long time to fully wake up?

Directv's HD GUI problems remind me of the continuing problems Tivo has had with the performance of their HD GUI on the Premiere boxes. In that case, it is flash based so I can understand the issue. Every Tivo Premiere runs Linux and all use the same hardware, so the only reason for using a cross platform solution is because it is the only GUI that could run on Linux the developers were familiar with. There are plenty of far faster GUI options available in Linux, but they probably used bargain programmers who only know Windows, so decided to go flash rather than hire people who can do the job right. Directv's GUI is slow even on the non HD GUI receivers like H20, so who knows how they managed to screw that up so badly. At least my Tivo Premiere gives me the option to run the classic SD GUI, which is much faster (but lacks some features and is no longer in active development)

Flash sucks, it is nearly impossible to fix its performance issues via a faster CPU because the software is so badly written. As of a year or so ago Adobe no longer develops it for Linux (that's why Android phones won't get updated versions any longer) so its performance will never get better. The only real fix would be for them to start over with a new GUI, programmed by people who know Linux and do it right. For maximum performance they'd use fbdev/DirectFB, but given the desire to run a remote GUI on the Genie clients, X Windows would be a better alternative, even if it isn't quite as fast - still far, far faster than flash. For those who aren't familiar with it, it does a local GUI but has a remote capability built in similar to Remote Desktop - except it has had that remote capability since before Microsoft released the first version of their Windows.

If we're lucky maybe developing a replacement GUI is already underway. If we're not, we just better get used to the current crappy performance, because flash doesn't seem to benefit much from faster CPUs. At least I know based on my quad core 3.2 GHz desktop running Linux that flash still sucks even with all that power to throw at it, so there's no hope for it in the type of CPUs you can put into a Tivo or Directv receiver.

From what I gather from a little googling, Dish also uses Linux. I'm not familiar with their receivers, but if the Hopper GUI is much faster than the Genie, whatever they're using, it isn't flash.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

harsh said:


> My JVC VCR skips commercials.In this, you speak the truth.


I had one that skipped commercials too. Had to leave it running overnight so it could process the commercials. Should have never wasted my money on it.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> Maybe so but why the HDGUI update then? They screwed up by going with the HDGUI software 'upgrade'. What did we get out of it? Color change and maybe crisp text that wasn't blurry to begin with. No more guide info or anything - just 9 months of debugging in an attempt to get back to a little less performance than before the HDGUI.....
> 
> Writing good code may come if the number of subs stops increasing or actually reverses course and goes down. Maybe they'll hire someone in management with a little pride - you never know! Until then it will be business as usual. You'd think 'Good code' would make sense but they are not hurting for money or subs so 'Mediocre code' is just fabulous.
> 
> If I had anything to do with DirecTV management I would be embarrassed - especially with the C31 clients... Talk about under-performance - wow - they should be ashamed! :eek2:


It's like MLB. As long as there are fannies in the seats, they don't care that much about fielding a good team. The Mets learned that lesson the hard way.

As long as subs aren't bailing out en masse, nothing's gonna change.

And if they did bail out, where would they go?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> Agreed - unless it costs DirecTV subs it isn't going to change. Although the C31 clients bring performance to a new low. I think even people that don't usually notice or care about the speed are wondering what the hell is going on with those things! Even worse apparently the C41 clients are not any faster....:nono:


It's always baffled me that people would use plain receivers when they could use DVRs.

Rich


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

I think my biggest gripe is that when you push a button your not sure if it went through. Then bam it goes through as well as any additional key presses you pushed since you didn't think it went through. Sure the DirecTV logo blinks when it receives a command... But I'm not always in a position to stare at that, especially when I'm staring at the screen. I think some visual feedback or indication ON SCREEN that the button command was pressed would make the system feel quicker. Some sense of context about the direction of where you are navigating in the GUI. For instance on the old SD boxes when you pressed guide, it sort of scaled smoothly onto the screen. Also like in the Xfinity X1 videos, there are some wait times due to the cloud nature of the system... But it's mitigated by animated selections, windows and other effects that at least give the end user confirmation of the reception of the button pressed. It feels faster and smoother, even though a stopwatch comparison would show about the same wait times.

Sure other things could be busy, but while they are processing and harvesting the data to bring up the menu, direcfb and OpenGL could target a transition which could be offloaded from the CPU due to video hardware acceleration. This way you see something is happening, and while that is taking place the CPU is gathering the data to present there. UI designers can use this to mask the slow response and eliminate the jarring experience of "did I push the button because nothing is happening... Oh wait there it is all at once 3 seconds later".

Also RVU 1.0 is all about cost. It's a shame it's bit mapped transmitted graphics. Something like Microsofts RemoteFX or how Xbox can be a full featured graphically rich "media center extender" while the core processing is running on a PC. Even x-windows like mentioned would have given DirecTV more headroom.

The HR44 has a much better processor so maybe paired with good efficient code, it can support clients smoothly. However I think an RVU 2.0 spec needs to address a remote GUI with hardware acceleration and server processor offloading. The TiVo mini is a good example of how the thin client contains a full featured Broadcom CPU (minus the RF tuning).


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> It's more than just slow GUI code. I can press all three channel numbers plus enter before I see the GUI do anything. Surely a slow GUI can't be solely responsible for being unable to put a number on the screen before I can hit two more numbers and hit enter. Maybe the CPU enters an overly aggressive power save mode and takes a long time to fully wake up?
> 
> Directv's HD GUI problems remind me of the continuing problems Tivo has had with the performance of their HD GUI on the Premiere boxes. In that case, it is flash based so I can understand the issue. Every Tivo Premiere runs Linux and all use the same hardware, so the only reason for using a cross platform solution is because it is the only GUI that could run on Linux the developers were familiar with. There are plenty of far faster GUI options available in Linux, but they probably used bargain programmers who only know Windows, so decided to go flash rather than hire people who can do the job right. Directv's GUI is slow even on the non HD GUI receivers like H20, so who knows how they managed to screw that up so badly. At least my Tivo Premiere gives me the option to run the classic SD GUI, which is much faster (but lacks some features and is no longer in active development)
> 
> ...


You want to see crappy performance? Try the UI at Hulu+, try the NetFlix UI, try a BD player or a VCR. I don't see anything terrible about the HRs as they stand now. I don't have a 34 or a 44, don't need anymore tuners and don't want clients that don't record, but none of my HRs is anywhere near "crappy" as far as performance goes.

Rich


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Rich said:


> It's like MLB. As long as there are fannies in the seats, they don't care that much about fielding a good team. The Mets learned that lesson the hard way.
> 
> As long as subs aren't bailing out en masse, nothing's gonna change.
> 
> ...


Yep!

The only other choice is Dish Network. I prefer DirecTV (I'm sure they wish I didn't!) because DirecTV has Sunday Ticket, a tad better HD quality and MRV. Dish Networks receivers on the other hand are much much faster in everything and you never have to wonder if you need to hit RECORD again or not.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Rich said:


> It's always baffled me that people would use plain receivers when they could use DVRs.
> 
> Rich


I think the only reason is that if you have an HR34/HR44 you can control everything from the client but not from the DVRs.

DirecTV likes the client idea because it saves them money. The clients must cost them $8 or so! And they get to charge the same as if they were receivers.

I personally wouldn't use a client because of what I saw yesterday. The C31 clients bring a new definition to 'SLOW'. Can't FFWD or even move up and down the menus and play list without the thing losing its mind! Pretty sad...


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> I think the only reason is that if you have an HR34/HR44 you can control everything from the client but not from the DVRs.


So, you gotta get up and walk a few steps. Still rather have DVRs.



> DirecTV likes the client idea because it saves them money. The clients must cost them $8 or so! And they get to charge the same as if they were receivers.


Yeah, I get that. For most folks I'm sure it's a good thing. If they've never tried the better way.



> I personally wouldn't use a client because of what I saw yesterday. The C31 clients bring a new definition to 'SLOW'. Can't FFWD or even move up and down the menus and play list without the thing losing its mind! Pretty sad...


Were you surprised?.... :lol:

Rich


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Rich said:


> So, you gotta get up and walk a few steps. Still rather have DVRs.


Don't want to burn off any calories! I get it - and for you and me it doesn't make much sense but I see how someone with 2 or 3 TVs would rather have 'centralized' management.



Rich said:


> Yeah, I get that. For most folks I'm sure it's a good thing. If they've never tried the better way.


I wouldn't doubt if someday soon DirecTV cranks up the price of the standard HD DVRs to 'encourage' people to use the clients. Makes life better for DirecTV!



Rich said:


> Were you surprised?.... :lol:
> 
> Rich


Believe it or not I was surprised! I was expecting the C31 to be slower than my HR24s but I didn't expect them to be even slower than my old HR22s! I expected to be able to do basic things like scroll down the play list without the thing taking off down the list... These have been available for something like a year now right? Still looks like they are in alpha testing!

Downright embarrassing!


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Rich said:


> You want to see crappy performance? Try the UI at Hulu+, try the NetFlix UI, try a BD player or a VCR. I don't see anything terrible about the HRs as they stand now. I don't have a 34 or a 44, don't need anymore tuners and don't want clients that don't record, but none of my HRs is anywhere near "crappy" as far as performance goes.
> 
> Rich


I use all those on my AppleTV and bluray player and they are both faster than my HR24s were, though not nearly as fast as Dish's gear.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> I use all those on my AppleTV and bluray player and they are both faster than my HR24s were, though not nearly as fast as Dish's gear.


I should have been clearer. I meant the functions like FF and RR and things like that. Hulu+ is damn near impossible to control. NF is better, but I'm always happy when I return to and HR and have better control over those features. My newest Panny plasma has a better NF UI than any of the BD players which I use for streaming.

Rich


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Ah, OK. Yeah, their interface does suck, but it is certainly quick enough.

All trickplay with them is such an effort in futility so I never use it.

I primarily use my AppleTV for streaming, but use the BD player for AmazonPrime and VUDU. My Mitsi TV has VUDU and 'VUDU apps', but I don't use it at all for that.

I keep hoping someone will actually bring out a 'one size fits all' box for streaming, but I think it is a false hope!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Mike Greer said:


> The clients must cost them $8 or so!


The hardware may be cheap but there are likely some serious technology licensing fees involved. I'm pretty sure HDMI is still abusive and I have to imagine that they charge a hefty license fee for RVU; something that the other boxes don't bear.

I suspect that the exclusion of ATSC tuners had something to do with licensing fee costs as well. Westinghouse went to court to fight a $23/unit ATSC licensing fee back in the day.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Back to the topic.

I'm still not convinced by the reason as HDGUI swap; most likely that time DTV added some heavy CPU load by, say, Java applets or new DB engine or something like that....


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

harsh said:


> The hardware may be cheap but there are likely some serious technology licensing fees involved. I'm pretty sure HDMI is still abusive and I have to imagine that they charge a hefty license fee for RVU; something that the other boxes don't bear.
> 
> I suspect that the exclusion of ATSC tuners had something to do with licensing fee costs as well. Westinghouse went to court to fight a $23/unit ATSC licensing fee back in the day.


Maybe so but except for the RVU stuff the real receivers have the same fees.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if DirecTV's goal is to be rid of everything but the Genie and its clients and a simple receiver like the H25. Maximize their profit and simplify the installs. Win-win for DirecTV.

Now if they could only make the software work as well as the hardware.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

P Smith said:


> Back to the topic.
> 
> I'm still not convinced by the reason as HDGUI swap; most likely that time DTV added some heavy CPU load by, say, Java applets or new DB engine or something like that....


Could be - but even now - after multiple updates since - my HR24s are not as fast as they used to be - before the HDGUI screw up. I'm still at least 'ok' with the speed of my HR24s, at least most of the time. Much much better than my HR22s that's for sure!

It would be great to know what goes through the minds of the people in DirecTV engineering. Especially whoever it is that decides where the money and time should be spent.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

The SD-GUI was horrendous! The HD GUI added a huge improvement in guide page scrolling speed and better contrast / aesthetics.

I just think it needs to be optimized. It feels incomplete and slow without any contextual motion. It is incomplete, check Scoreguide, ACTIVE, weather ch overlay and interactive sports overlays. Those aren't even HD at all. It really reminds me of TiVo Premiere when it came out. Slow and not 100% complete.

Speaking of TiVo Premiere, they didn't even port that current TiVo to DirecTV. Instead they ported what... A 6 year old product to an aging piece of hardware? If only DirecTV would just outsource and let Apple design their hardware and software. Then at least it would have real complete aesthetics and performance marched with the highly superior ARM based CPU's instead of these Pentium II 400 MHz like MIPS based jalopy's we have today.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

cypherx said:


> The SD-GUI was horrendous! The HD GUI added a huge improvement in guide page scrolling speed and better contrast / aesthetics.


That wasn't my experience... The HDGUI slowed all three of my HR24s down and caused odd things to happen. Most of those troubles are mostly fixed now but they are still not as fast as they were before the HDGUI.

Better contrast and aesthetics - sure - but that was simple color changes - didn't need to screw-the-pooch for a color change!


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Mike are your HR24's the problematic -500 version? I have HR24-200 and H24-200. I think the -200's feel faster to me than the -500's. not to mention in various issues threads it seems like the -500's are always plagued with problems. I like the Samsung made stuff. Just wish I could over clock it. The non DVR is pretty fast. Still feature incomplete though.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Mike Greer said:


> That wasn't my experience... The HDGUI slowed all three of my HR24s down and caused odd things to happen. Most of those troubles are mostly fixed now but they are still not as fast as they were before the HDGUI.
> 
> Better contrast and aesthetics - sure - but that was simple color changes - didn't need to screw-the-pooch for a color change!


You can't judge by look of your 'car' if you don't know if the 'engine' changed too.
We don't know what else changed in FW that time!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

cypherx said:


> Mike are your HR24's the problematic -500 version? I have HR24-200 and H24-200. I think the -200's feel faster to me than the -500's. not to mention in various issues threads it seems like the -500's are always plagued with problems. I like the Samsung made stuff. Just wish I could over clock it. The non DVR is pretty fast. Still feature incomplete though.


All three are -500. Really as far as problems go (other than I would like them to be as fast as Dish Network receivers) I have 1 that I have to restart once a week or after 10 days or so it will just stop responding for 3 or 4 minutes at a time.

Occasionally I have a hiccup here or there but not too horrible. My *****, as always, is that they need to instantly respond to the remote - I shouldn't be able to get ahead of the DVR by pushing buttons.

Need-for-speed.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

P Smith said:


> You can't judge by look of your 'car' if you don't know if the 'engine' changed too.
> We don't know what else changed in FW that time!


Of course - they could have made any number of changes that have nothing to do with the HDGUI but it was at that 'update' when things really got screwed.

Again - they have more recently fixed most of the issues they added then but the speed has not returned to what it was the day before the 'upgrade'. It is 'tolerable' to me but not by much.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

I remember that when the HD GUI was announced, it was promised to improve GUI performance and everyone cheered that prospect. So, the DVR GUI performance was complained about LONG before the HD GUI appeared.

We have 2 H25-500s, 2 HR24s (a 100 and a 500), 2 HR21s (a 100 and a 700) and HR34. None of them any real have problems (I can't remember the last time we rebooted the HR2xs). The performance of the HR21s are sluggish, but only the one with an external 1TB drive gets really slow, and then only when the disk fills up. I personally move between one of the H25s, the 2 HR24s, and the HR34 without really noticing any big differences in performance.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> Ah, OK. Yeah, their interface does suck, but it is certainly quick enough.


Yup, it's quick, but accuracy is lost in that speed. If I miss something and want to back up, it's an ordeal.



> All trickplay with them is such an effort in futility so I never use it.


That's what I was talking about. My Panny plasma has NF and it has the best NF interface I've seen so far. Trickplay is easy, but I can't get 5.1 sound with the TV.



> I primarily use my AppleTV for streaming, but use the BD player for AmazonPrime and VUDU. My Mitsi TV has VUDU and 'VUDU apps', but I don't use it at all for that.


Haven't tried the new Apple TV, but I've read some reports on it and they weren't favorable. Roku is supposed to update it's older models to the same level as the new Rokus this month. I think I still have one laying around somewhere and if the update actually takes place I'd prefer to use that. I've got to replace a BD player that is integrated into a sound system. The BD player still works well, but doesn't have access to all the new features on NF.



> I keep hoping someone will actually bring out a 'one size fits all' box for streaming, but I think it is a false hope!


For that, I'd choose the Roku. 750 channels. Amazing.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> That wasn't my experience... The HDGUI slowed all three of my HR24s down and caused odd things to happen. Most of those troubles are mostly fixed now but they are still not as fast as they were before the HDGUI.
> 
> Better contrast and aesthetics - sure - but that was simple color changes - didn't need to screw-the-pooch for a color change!


I'll agree with that wholeheartedly.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

cypherx said:


> Mike are your HR24's the problematic -500 version? I have HR24-200 and H24-200. I think the -200's feel faster to me than the -500's. not to mention in various issues threads it seems like the -500's are always plagued with problems. I like the Samsung made stuff. Just wish I could over clock it. The non DVR is pretty fast. Still feature incomplete though.


I've had them all and see little difference in the performance of the 3 models. The 200 was fine, the 100s are amazingly good (for a 100) and the 500s are just as good as the other 2 models. I've only got 500s and 100s. The 200 is difficult (nearly impossible) to put an internal HDD in and just about forces anyone that owns one to use an external device with it.

Rich


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Rich;3202111 said:


> I've had them all and see little difference in the performance of the 3 models. The 200 was fine, the 100s are amazingly good (for a 100) and the 500s are just as good as the other 2 models. I've only got 500s and 100s. The 200 is difficult (nearly impossible) to put an internal HDD in and just about forces anyone that owns one to use an external device with it.
> 
> Rich


A buddy of mine has an HR24-500 and it just seemed incredibly slow and laggy compared to my HR24-200. Granted that was months ago and he does not participate in any of the DirecTV exclusive software testing like me. Also a lot of the issues posts people complain about weird oddities with their -500 model. A lot of it has been disappearing AM21 channels, but there have been numerous other issues reported that people with -200's didn't experience (or report).

But in terms of speed... My H24 runs circles around my HR24. Shame you can't just plug in a USB2.0 drive to an H24 and it automatically become a single tuner DVR to add to the MRV pool.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

cypherx said:


> A buddy of mine has an HR24-500 and it just seemed incredibly slow and laggy compared to my HR24-200. Granted that was months ago and he does not participate in any of the DirecTV exclusive software testing like me. Also a lot of the issues posts people complain about weird oddities with their -500 model. A lot of it has been disappearing AM21 channels, but there have been numerous other issues reported that people with -200's didn't experience (or report).


I have six 500s and have no problems with them. I have a large MRV system and the 500s work well in that system. No complaints about the 500s here.



> But in terms of speed... My H24 runs circles around my HR24.


Easily explained, I'm sure you know why.



> Shame you can't just plug in a USB2.0 drive to an H24 and it automatically become a single tuner DVR to add to the MRV pool.


Dream on... :lol:


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Rich said:


> Haven't tried the new Apple TV, but I've read some reports on it and they weren't favorable. Roku is supposed to update it's older models to the same level as the new Rokus this month. I think I still have one laying around somewhere and if the update actually takes place I'd prefer to use that. I've got to replace a BD player that is integrated into a sound system. The BD player still works well, but doesn't have access to all the new features on NF.
> 
> For that, I'd choose the Roku. 750 channels. Amazing.
> 
> Rich


The AppleTV is absolutely perfect in that it does exactly what it is designed to do. The few complaints are generally about what it doesn't do and how adding whatever the writer figures is important, would make it better.

I'm a Mac person and fully into the Mac ecosystem, so an AppleTV is at least one part of the streaming puzzle. Gives me iTunes, and allows for sharing my iTunes library with it (can't do that with anything else I'm aware of). Also covers HuluPlus and Netflix with the best interface I've seen to them so far.

But I I have to shift to the BluRay player if I want to use Amazon Prime, or use my DLNA server.

Of course, with just a little bit more effort I could do all of it with just the AppleTV and MacBook Pro by using the Airplay function and mirroring whatever from the laptop to the ATV. That works very well, I just don't do it.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

Rich said:


> ...For that, I'd choose the Roku. 750 channels. Amazing.
> 
> Rich


I agree with you, however, probably 700 of those 750 channels are useless.



lparsons21 said:


> The AppleTV is absolutely perfect in that it does exactly what it is designed to do. The few complaints are generally about what it doesn't do and how adding whatever the writer figures is important, would make it better.
> 
> I'm a Mac person and fully into the Mac ecosystem, so an AppleTV is at least one part of the streaming puzzle. Gives me iTunes, and allows for sharing my iTunes library with it (can't do that with anything else I'm aware of). Also covers HuluPlus and Netflix with the best interface I've seen to them so far.
> 
> ...


For a "Mac person" AppleTV is the obvious choice. In our household, while we have two iPhones and an iPad, we have 3 Windows PCs and a MacBook Pro that runs Windows as often as it runs Lion.

We have a Roku XS that gives us access to Amazon, Netflix, Hulu+, Vudu (plus a host of other services) and can access anything else through PlayOn and a PC. We also have a Panasonic BD player that also covers Netflix, Hulu+, Amazon and Vudu. My daughter has a WD Live that covers all the major services and has a Slingbox client. Of all of them, I'd pick the Roku as the best all around streaming solution available.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

cypherx said:


> But in terms of speed... My H24 runs circles around my HR24. Shame you can't just plug in a USB2.0 drive to an H24 and it automatically become a single tuner DVR to add to the MRV pool.


Dish Network used to do that with one of their HD receivers! I don't see DirecTV ever ever ever doing that!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Diana C said:


> I remember that when the HD GUI was announced, it was promised to improve GUI performance and everyone cheered that prospect. So, the DVR GUI performance was complained about LONG before the HD GUI appeared.


Absolutely! GUI performance since the release the HR20 - especially the HR21/22/23s has ALWAYS been slower than I would like (It is all about me!). I didn't come along until the HR22 personally...

When the HR24 came out and I saw them in action I paid $600 to be rid of my boat-anchor ready HR22s. Life was pretty good until DirecTV granted the wish of the HDGUI. All three of my HR24-500s slowed way down and started having some of the same troubles I had with my HR22s. All in the name of essentially a color change called the HDGUI.

It took maybe 6 or 7 months and a handful of updates to get my HR24-500s to where they are today. Mostly ok but slower than I'd like and still not as fast as they were when I spent $600 to get them.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

cypherx said:


> But in terms of speed... My H24 runs circles around my HR24. Shame you can't just plug in a USB2.0 drive to an H24 and it automatically become a single tuner DVR to add to the MRV pool.





Mike Greer said:


> Dish Network used to do that with one of their HD receivers! I don't see DirecTV ever ever ever doing that!


Not to mention that once an H24 had to worry about scheduling recordings and resolving conflicts, being an MRV server, and managing a hard drive, it would probably slow down and be no faster than an HR24.


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## swyman18 (Jan 12, 2009)

Diana C;3202132 said:


> I agree with you, however, probably 700 of those 750 channels are useless.
> 
> For a "Mac person" AppleTV is the obvious choice. In our household, while we have two iPhones and an iPad, we have 3 Windows PCs and a MacBook Pro that runs Windows as often as it runs Lion.
> 
> We have a Roku XS that gives us access to Amazon, Netflix, Hulu+, Vudu (plus a host of other services) and can access anything else through PlayOn and a PC. We also have a Panasonic BD player that also covers Netflix, Hulu+, Amazon and Vudu. My daughter has a WD Live that covers all the major services and has a Slingbox client. Of all of them, I'd pick the Roku as the best all around streaming solution available.


I just got the new Roku 3 and it is tremendous. I also just realized that with the Roku iPhone app, it has it's own version of "AirPlay" so to speak... I can stream my iTunes music stored on my phone directly to the Roku. I almost have no need for my AppleTV anymore. Which is kind of ironic considering I bought the AppleTV to replace a first generation Roku a couple of years ago.


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## dishrich (Apr 23, 2002)

Mike Greer said:


> Dish Network used to do that with one of their HD receivers!


They STILL very much do to this day, on their 211, 211k & 411 HD receivers; the 211k is still a currently made receiver...


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Diana C said:


> I agree with you, however, probably 700 of those 750 channels are useless.
> 
> For a "Mac person" AppleTV is the obvious choice. In our household, while we have two iPhones and an iPad, we have 3 Windows PCs and a MacBook Pro that runs Windows as often as it runs Lion.
> 
> We have a Roku XS that gives us access to Amazon, Netflix, Hulu+, Vudu (plus a host of other services) and can access anything else through PlayOn and a PC. We also have a Panasonic BD player that also covers Netflix, Hulu+, Amazon and Vudu. My daughter has a WD Live that covers all the major services and has a Slingbox client. Of all of them, I'd pick the Roku as the best all around streaming solution available.


I'm not averse to getting a Roku, but so far haven't figured out what it brings to the table for me. 750 channels is all well and good, but after looking at all those, the majority of which are non-supported, I couldn't find any I don't already have with my setup that I would want.

I use Playon also, but only rarely as it only does 480p SD. I have to really, REALLY want to watch something to watch it in SD. Heck I'm even paying for HuluPlus so I can watch the teener targetting series on the CW! 

I also wanted to mention that when I was with DirecTV about 3 months ago, my 2 HR24-500s were working very good, but they were very slow especially compared to the 2 Hoppers I have from Dish. D* really has no real excuse for the sluggishness that is pervasive across the HR line, imo.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

dishrich said:


> They STILL very much do to this day, on their 211, 211k & 411 HD receivers; the 211k is still a currently made receiver...


That's cool - I wasn't sure if they still did it or not. DirecTV needs to steal some engineers!

I put some serious cash on the 211k with a hard drive still being twice as fast as any DirecTV HD DVR.:eek2:


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

lparsons21 said:


> I also wanted to mention that when I was with DirecTV about 3 months ago, my 2 HR24-500s were working very good, but they were very slow especially compared to the 2 Hoppers I have from Dish.


Go ahead and rub it in!:lol:


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Mike Greer;3202234 said:


> That's cool - I wasn't sure if they still did it or not. DirecTV needs to steal some engineers!
> 
> I put some serious cash on the 211k with a hard drive still being twice as fast as any DirecTV HD DVR.:eek2:


The problem with steeling engineers is that some could be under contract and most likely they signed NDA's anyway. A dish engineer jumps ship and they find out that's how DirecTV is getting new features... Can you say lawsuit?


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> I'm not averse to getting a Roku, but so far haven't figured out what it brings to the table for me. 750 channels is all well and good, but after looking at all those, the majority of which are non-supported, I couldn't find any I don't already have with my setup that I would want...


Sure...I didn't mean to imply you would be well served by switching. From all I know, the Roku and AppleTV are roughly equivalent, except for AppleTV's better support of the "Mac ecosystem" as you called it. My intent was simply to say that for "non-Mac people" Roku is as good as it gets, at a much lower price point than AppleTV.

All of which is way off topic.  :backtotop


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Everyone yelled at me when I suggested that DirecTV's software development processes were fundamentally flawed, and would never lead to truly high quality software. Glad to see I'm still being proven right, even well after the highly vaunted HD GUI upgrade that would "fix everything."


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Jeremy W said:


> Everyone yelled at me when I suggested that DirecTV's software development processes were fundamentally flawed, and would never lead to truly high quality software. Glad to see I'm still being proven right, even well after the highly vaunted HD GUI upgrade that would "fix everything."


I don't think EVERYONE yelled at you...


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> I don't think EVERYONE yelled at you...


OK, *a lot* of people yelled at me.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Everyone yelled at me when I suggested that DirecTV's software development processes were fundamentally flawed, and would never lead to truly high quality software. Glad to see I'm still being proven right, even well after the highly vaunted HD GUI upgrade that would "fix everything."


First off, welcome back...you haven't posted in a long time.

What's your recommendations to improve the development?


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Yeah hi Jeremy! Not sure if this is the same one from dslreports...

What would you think to individual one on one attention to each model HR to correctly optimize it for its SoC?

You know what we have now reminds me of the old Facebook iPhone app. It was ungodly slow, buggy and annoying. It was built in HTML 5 which was supposed to make it easier to update. However since there were so many performance complaints they rewrote an iOS optimized version. Now it runs super fast. Same hardware, same end result (accessing Facebook). Just now super speed.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> First off, welcome back...you haven't posted in a long time.


Thanks. I'm just stopping by though, I'm still a very happy Comcast customer with a Tivo DVR. It may lag sometimes, but it always lags in the same places and it *always* responds to remote input.


cypherx said:


> Yeah hi Jeremy! Not sure if this is the same one from dslreports...


I do have the same username over there.



sigma1914 said:


> What's your recommendations to improve the development?





sigma1914 said:


> What would you think to individual one on one attention to each model HR to correctly optimize it for its SoC?


I think that abstracting out the code so that they can optimize for each SoC individually would definitely help the performance issues. But the other stuff, like bugs that seem to pop up all the time, points to a deeper flaw in methodology. Without having more specific information about how they work, it's hard to say anything of value about what they could change.

It's not directly related to the software development, but the decision to allow different hardware architectures within models that are supposed to be related was very shortsighted. Probably one of the biggest mistakes DirecTV has made in the development of their own hardware/software platform.


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## dishrich (Apr 23, 2002)

Mike Greer said:


> I put some serious cash on the 211k with a hard drive still being twice as fast as any DirecTV HD DVR.:eek2:


Well I can't speak for that personally, as I do not have a HDD on my 211k.
However, it's pretty pathetic that all my "older technology" E* DVR's (722k's & even a 522 I'm getting ready to send back) ALL run circles around any D* DVR, speedwise... :eek2: 
It was SO nice to go to DVR's that actually do something, like NOW - when you press a button on the remote!


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

I've never used a Directv DVR, only the receivers. Is there noticeable lag between the time you hit controls like FF, play and pause to the time it actually acts on it? That would be highly annoying. My Tivo Premiere may have a GUI that's slower than I'd like for doing stuff like navigating the menus, but it responds instantly to the types of controls you use when watching a program. Even my now DOA 10 year old Series 2 responded instantly.

A DVR would be practically worthless for doing stuff like skipping commercials or finer grained things like skipping the gaps between plays in a football game if there's _any_ lag in response to the remote.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

There is some lag more so on an MRV client. I would be curious this response time on a Joey or TiVo mini.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> I also like the simplicity of DirecTV's GUI etc. Just think how fast Dish Networks GUI would be if it was the simple GUI DirecTV has. Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
> 
> I don't know how Dish does it either - and apparently for less hardware cost per box. It is cheaper to buy (and actually own) Dish Network hardware than DirecTV's hardware. Quite a mystery!


I wanted to come back to this comment.

I think one of the main reasons Dish equipment is so much faster and more consistent is that they use one mfg to produce them all. So each and every box is exactly like every other box with that model number. And having that mfg be a company tightly tied to Dish doesn't hurt either.

With D* using different mfgs to produce the boxes, and end users noting the differences in performance and reliability by mfg, it seems obvious that for the customer, farming out the mfg might not be in our best interest. It certainly is for D* as I would think they'd get some competition for the build contracts.

While every mfg that makes a D* box should be working on a single spec, it doesn't seem that it is quite that way with them trying to cut costs to increase their bottom line. That in turn makes writing code a bit more daunting to compensate for these, probably minor, differences.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

P Smith said:


> I'm still not convinced by the reason as HDGUI swap; most likely that time DTV added some heavy CPU load by, say, Java applets or new DB engine or something like that....


I'm betting that there's no JVM (there's no compelling reason for it in a proprietary environment) and there couldn't be a worse engine than the one they were using. Even if that were the case, database engines and JVMs shouldn't interfere with operations that don't involve databases or "apps".


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Aren't these things capable of mult-threading? The CPU on the HR44 is dual core, but I'm not so sure about the others. Maybe they should of put like a PowerVR or AMD mobile graphics co processor to further offload the daunting task of display writes off of the CPU.

Multiple manufacturers could of been given a spec to adhere to for performance and I/O. I mean you can buy a PC from HP, Dell, Sony, Acer and many others. They don't seem to suffer so poorly multitasking on a full operating system like Windows 7 running aero or Windows 8 running metro.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

harsh said:


> I'm betting that there's no JVM (there's no compelling reason for it in a proprietary environment) and there couldn't be a worse engine than the one they were using. Even if that were the case, database engines and JVMs shouldn't interfere with operations that don't involve databases or "apps".


compelling reason ... yeah, tell me that *after *reading system log from your external drive ...


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

Drawing analogies to PCs is a questionable practice. The DirecTV DVRs use highly integrated processors that wrap a CPU, video processing, tuner interfaces and many low level DVR functions up into a single chipset (and on the later units, a single chip). Whether a particular function is slow because of the higher level application code, bottlenecks in the system, or contention for resources may be difficult to determine and certainly impossible to determine from simply using the DVRs.

That the DVRs can be very sluggish is certainly undeniable, but diagnosis of why is pure conjecture.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

cypherx said:


> Aren't these things capable of mult-threading? The CPU on the HR44 is dual core, but I'm not so sure about the others. Maybe they should of put like a PowerVR or AMD mobile graphics co processor to further offload the daunting task of display writes off of the CPU.


The display writes are already handled by a separate section that handles character rendering and graphic scaling/overlay.


> They don't seem to suffer so poorly multitasking on a full operating system like Windows 7 running aero or Windows 8 running metro.


If you look at the relatively large amount of non-CPU computing power and storage resources, it is little wonder. Most modern computers have more resources in their display adapter than a modern DVR has all tolled and power consumption to go with.

Applying general purpose computing theory to a consumer DVR is absurd and should not be engaged in.


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