# Aspect modes with HD signals?



## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

I was thinking of getting a 942 to replace my 921. But I have a question on the aspect modes. I've read through Mark's review and other posts, so I think I know the answer, but I just want to make sure as I can't believe Dish removed a certain functionality.

On the 811 and 921, the various aspect modes (stretch, zoom, etc) function regardless of the source signal (SD at 480 or HD at 720 or 1080) when the STB is set to a 16x9 screen and 720 or 1080 output.

With the 942, is it really true that this functionality doesn't exist and that if tuned to an HD channel (ie a channel being broadcast as 720 or 1080), the stretch modes don't work if the 942 is set for a 16x9 screen and 720 or 1080i output?

If so, why in the world would Dish have removed this functionality? And what are the options to regain aspect control--switching the 942 to 4x3 #2 and setting the output to 480?

Thanks.


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## Jerry 42 (Feb 25, 2003)

With the last 2 updates/downloads I can strech, zoom, etc the HD channels (both OTA and sat) on both my 942s. The ratios work on set 1 and set 2. I use single mode on both so I can not answer for duel mode.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Jerry 42 said:


> With the last 2 updates/downloads I can strech, zoom, etc the HD channels (both OTA and sat) on both my 942s. The ratios work on set 1 and set 2. I use single mode on both so I can not answer for duel mode.


Thanks very much. So it sounds like the functionality that is present on the 811 and 921 (being able to use the aspect modes on HD channels when the STB is set to 16x9 and 720 or 1080 output) was missing in the original software but has been restored on the newest updates.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

That's correct.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> That's correct.


Mark, thanks for the confirmation.


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## Jon Spackman (Feb 7, 2005)

Jerry,

Get a 942, you won't regret it. It is sooooo much better than the 921. I dumped my 921 and am so much happier. One word to describe the 942 compared to the 921: Reliable, better, or superior; you choose one they all apply.

Jon


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

j5races said:


> Jerry,
> 
> Get a 942, you won't regret it. It is sooooo much better than the 921. I dumped my 921 and am so much happier. One word to describe the 942 compared to the 921: Reliable, better, or superior; you choose one they all apply.
> 
> Jon


Yea. I've decided to get one next week. I know I'll have to replace it with an MPEG4 HD DVR when the time comes, and really didn't want to invest in more equipment until MPEG4, it's gotten to the point that I dislike and distrust the 921 so much and have wasted so much time and aggravation with it, that it will be worth spending $700 to avoid any future aggravation (yea, I know there will be some problems with the 942, but all reports indicate it's so much more stable, and fixable) with the 921, even if it's only for 6 months.


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## Jon Spackman (Feb 7, 2005)

Jerry, i havent had any problems with mine. I had less problems with the 921 than most others on here, but the last straw for me was L216 that made it when you went to channel 28-01 (my last OTA) and pressed channel up on the remote it would start over at channel 2. The 921 acted like there were only local channels. That was it and i went to fry's and bought a 942. It is sooooo nice to have partial zoom back (missed it since my 6000), and NBR is awesome. It looks like there wont be a HD dvr MPeg4 for at least a year to me. If they are not even testing it at least....


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## bnewt (Oct 2, 2003)

Jerry 42 said:


> With the last 2 updates/downloads I can strech, zoom, etc the HD channels (both OTA and sat) on both my 942s. The ratios work on set 1 and set 2. I use single mode on both so I can not answer for duel mode.


How do the aspect modes function if tv1 is watching hd programming on a 16x9 set & tv2 is watching sd programming on 4x3 set? Are they both correct/both incorrect or 50/50. Is this typical on all dual tuner units from dish?


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

There is at least one weirdness left with stretching when in 16x9 mode Jerry G, but it isn't that big of a deal. If you are watching two HD channels with PIP, only one channel has black bars, and the other doesn't, changing the aspect ratio by stretching applies to both channels. If you stretch, the channel being watched is stretched, however, the PIP channel is also stretched. It would be nice if they were isolated from each other. However, the 921 doesn't even do HD PIP, so there are only gains for you.


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

Let me get this straight. With the 921, the HD and SD were not active simultaneously. So you had to create a long macro to go into the setup screen and change the resolution and aspect ratio when going from HD to SD or visa versa. This was a royal pain.

Now, the 942 has both SD and HD outputs active simultaneously. However, from what I'm reading, the setup screens let you choose resolution and aspect ratio, but these settings apply equally to both the SD and HD outputs. 

So, if I'm using two inputs on my TV, one for HD and one for SD, it sounds like I still have to create long macros to change the resolution and AR evertime I switch form HD to SD and back. 

How are you folks dealing with this? Is there an easy way around the problem that I don't recognize?

I'm on the verge of dumping the 921 for a 942, but this for me might be a deal killer.

Incidentally, is there any drawback to buying the 942 from eBay sources? There are quite a few deals for only $625, with no sales tax.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

igleaner said:


> So, if I'm using two inputs on my TV, one for HD and one for SD, it sounds like I still have to create long macros to change the resolution and AR evertime I switch form HD to SD and back.


Maybe I'm not understanding your question, but you don't really need to change anything. HD can be output as 480, 720, or 1080. SD is always output as 480i NTSC. And the aspect setting for your set (16x9 or 4x3 from the HDTV setup menu) should be the same regardless of which input your using (SD or HD). The only thing you may need to change is the aspect of the picture which is done via a single button on the remote, or the aspect of your TV's screen, which is changeable with a 480 signal.


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

I ask this question because Mark Lamutt wrote:

"in Single User mode, this aspect ratio also controls the aspect ratio of the standard definition outputs of TV2, so if you are watching a 16x9 HD program, the TV2 standard definition output will be horizontally squished (tall skinny people syndrome)."

Therefore what I need to know is, if I permanently set the 942's AR to 16:9 and the resolution to 1080i, for my widescreen Hitachi TV:

1. Would an HD broadcast from the 942's TV1 output look normal and fill the complete screen on the Hitachi's TV1 DVI input, and 

2. Would an SD broadcast from the 942's TV2 output also look normal and fill the whole screen on the Hitachi's TV2 composite input, and

3. Would it ever be necessary to reset the 942's resolution and AR when watching differnet program sources?

I ask this because in the 921, I constantly have to change the resolution and AR when switching from SD to HD since both outputs are not active simultaneously. Long macros do not always work reliably in the 921 since it sometimes exhibits a delayed response time, which screws up the string of commands.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

I see what your asking now.

I also have my 942 set to 16x9 and 1080i in HD setup menu. I never have to change it.

In the following, when I mention aspect control, I'm not referring to the type of TV set in the HD setup menu, but the aspect button on the remote that cycles between Normal, stretch, partial zoom, zoom, and gray bar. Keep in mind that when Mark created his initial write up on the 942, the aspect modes weren't fully implemented. Until I determined that they were in subsequent software updates, I almost gave up the idea of dumping my 921 for an 811. Thankfully, the full range of aspect ratios are now implemented.

1. Yes. If the content is 16x9, it will fill your entire screen. Of course, if you're watching 4:3 content being broadcast as HD, your picture will have side bars if the 942 is set for normal. You can "stretch" the 4:3 to fill the sides if you want. This is the same functionality as with the 921. Note that the 921 doesn't have the partial zoom, but the 942 (and 811) does.

An SD channel 4:3 content output via component or HDMI will have side bars. I usually apply the stretch mode to fill the screen horizontally.

2. Mark was referring to the fact that the component output (TV2) is treated as an anamorphic DVD would be. That is, you'd set your TV to Full, just as you would with an anamorphic DVD. I tried this when I first got my 942 and I just can't recall if I set the 942 aspect (from the aspect button on the remote-not from the HD set up menu) to normal or zoom. I'll have to check it when I get home and I'll try to remember to post a follow up. I don't usually switch my set to the composite input when watching an SD channel as I'm fairly satisfied with the upconversion to 1080i and I can control the aspect by cycling through the aspect modes. But in any case, you will NOT have to go back to the HD setup menu. This was only needed with the earlier software releases for the 942.

3. No, it should NOT ever be necessary to change the 16x9 or resolution setting in the HDTV setup menu.

As much as I didn't want to spend the money on the 942, I was just so fed up with the 921 that I felt it would be worth it to avoid the continual and I fear never ending aggravation with the 921. I'm glad I did. While there may be a few remaining issues with the 942, it is so much more stable and usable than the 921 ever was and probably ever will be.

Jerry


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

igleaner said:


> I ask this question because Mark Lamutt wrote:
> 
> "in Single User mode, this aspect ratio also controls the aspect ratio of the standard definition outputs of TV2, so if you are watching a 16x9 HD program, the TV2 standard definition output will be horizontally squished (tall skinny people syndrome)."
> 
> ...


I think I follow what you're saying, so I'll take a stab.

I know this applies to my HDTV which is the Dish 34" 16:9 and the 942 in single user mode but maybe the effects are different on other tvs.

For both HD and SD viewing I can leave the 942 set to 1080 & 16:9 and not have to change it. I believe this is due to a change in 942 software one or two versions back because when I first got the 942, I had to do the macro bit to change to 4:2 #2 but not any more.

What I do have to do, is switch my tv's input to DVI for HD and composite for SD.

For HD via the DVI, you want the Dish remote "format" button set at normal - everything looks great (the tv's formating usually is not available when using DVI nor is it needed).

For SD, like I said, I switch the tv to one of the composite (red, white, yellow) inputs, set the 942 format button to the first stretch mode and the tv's screen format button to "cinerma" (different tvs have different names for this setting but it's the one that does a combo stretch / zoom nearer the edges which minimizes the distoration affect). This provides a (IMHO) much better picture that watching SD through the DVI input. This is also the setup I use to send HD (down converted of course) to my DVD recorder and they come out real good.

Now I think when I switch back & forth between SD & HD, I usually only have to change the tv input. I don't think I usually have to change the 942's format from normal to stretch because I think it remembers where it was. Either that or it just stays where it was for DVI and composite respectivly. I may be wrong on that but I think I only have to fool with the Dish format button when watching a HD channel that's doing 480 programming.

I hope some of this helps because I think I've got my self cornfussed now:eek2:


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

waltinvt said:


> I hope some of this helps because I think I've got my self cornfussed now:eek2:


That's how I felt after composing my post before yours :grin:

The bottom line here is that there is a lot of versatility with the 942's HD and SD outputs (with the newer software releases). Between the aspect modes of the 942 and the aspect modes of the display (with a 480 input), the user should be able to get whatever kind of picture he wants *without* having to change the HD setup menu. That's what really concerned igleaner, and I don't think he has to worry about that.


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## zephyr (Jun 25, 2005)

whew.

Thank you for the clear (ultimately) explanation of stretch modes. Two questions:

Does the 942 have a Cinerama or similar mode that stretches 1080i output more at the edges than in the middle or do you have to go to SD and let the TV do it? I agree that is easier to look at than a simple horizontal stretch.
Does it have a 'shrink' mode that reduces the width of the picture? One of our locals has the (for me) annoying habit of broadcasting 4:3 content in 16:9. They have a .2 channel that broadcasts digital SD, so this is not a necessity. My Sony tuner does have this, which has come in surprisingly handy.
Thanks.

Brian


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

Thanks JerryG and Waltinvt. Your explanations were quite clear. 

I see now that with the 942, my days of using the very long, unreliable macros needed for the 921 are over. All I need do is simply change my TV's input depending on whether I'm watching HD or SD.

That alone is reason to upgrade to the 942. 

They are now on eBay for $625 with free shipping and no tax. Combine that with the resale value of my 921, and the change should cost less than $200. A real bargain for all the advantages of the 942.

By the way, the issue is confusing. I had enough trouble just composing the question!


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

zephyr said:


> whew.
> 
> Thank you for the clear (ultimately) explanation of stretch modes. Two questions:
> 
> ...


No, the 942 doesn't have the justify (gradual) stretch, only the uniform stretch. Some displays have a justify stretch, others don't.

And no shrink mode. There is a gray bar mode, which I don't use, but I think that only cuts off the sides and doesn't inwardly compress the image.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

On hd viewing I use normal , 16 x 9 in 1080i. On sd viewing I use partial zoom to make the picture look right on my 57" hd toshiba. In regular Stretch mode, the picture makes everyone look short and fat. In partial zoom , it makes the picture look about right for a 16 x 9 hd tv. My Toshiba hd tv does a better job of stretching the picture and making look the way it should than the 942 does but only in 480i or 480p resolution.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Just checked the SD output. It would appear that with SD 4:3 material viewed via composite output, the stretch modes on my plasma retain the side bars and you need to use the aspect modes on the 942 to stretch or zoom the image. This seems to imply that you may not be able to use the justify mode on your display. This is probably because of the anamorphic nature of the composite output. Someone should verify this. For me, this isn't a problem as I'm satisfied with the aspect modes provided by the 942 itself.


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

Jerry G said:


> Just checked the SD output. It would appear that with SD 4:3 material viewed via composite output, the stretch modes on my plasma retain the side bars and you need to use the aspect modes on the 942 to stretch or zoom the image. This seems to imply that you may not be able to use the justify mode on your display. This is probably because of the anamorphic nature of the composite output. Someone should verify this. For me, this isn't a problem as I'm satisfied with the aspect modes provided by the 942 itself.


I don't have a 4:3 tv hooked up to the 942, so can't tell how it would look through the composite output but I know that if the 942 is left to "normal" format and tuned to a SD, 4:3 program, then none of my 16:9 tv's format choices will zoom / stretch correctly. It's only with the 942 format button in "stretch" mode that the tv's "cinerma" mode fills the 16:9 screen with a decent picture . I don't understand it - just know that's the way it is. Maybe someone here with more expertese could explain the technical aspects of all this.


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## glulam (Aug 2, 2005)

You need to have the 942's output set to 480i or 480p to use you TV's formats to just/stretch/zoom.


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

glulam - Are you saying that the SD composite output is NOT always 480i? 

If this is true, then it's back to long macros to switch between SD and HD again. 

I was thinking that once you set the resolution in the 942 menus, preferably 1080i for the DVI output, the composite yellow video output would always remain at 480i for viewing SD programs.

Then you only have to switch video inputs on the TV as follows: composite input for SD and DVI input for HD.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

igleaner said:


> glulam - Are you saying that the SD composite output is NOT always 480i?
> 
> If this is true, then it's back to long macros to switch between SD and HD again.
> 
> ...


The SD output is always 480i. It has to be. It's NTSC and that's always NTSC 480i.

But here's the thing. I just did a bit of experimenting with the SD output and setting the HDTV setup to 16x9, 4x3#1, and 4x3#2. As I mentioned before, the SD output signal is an anamorphic signal. That means that if you set your widescreen set to "Full", or whatever is the terminology on your set for an anamorphic DVD, then the picture will appear appropriately. If it's a 4:3 image, there will be side bars and you can use the 942's aspect modes to stretch of zoom the image. But, even though it's 480i, because it's an anamorphic signal, my sets aspect controls can't fully stretch the image, but I can zoom it. IIRC, you were interested in using your set's justify mode to stretch 4:3 content output as SD. You may not be able to do this if you set up the 942 as a 16x9 display. If I change the type of display to 4x3#2, then, with the SD output, I can use my display's stretch modes. However, without actually trying it, I can't say for sure how your display's aspect control will deal with the 942's SD anamorphic output which I believe is enabled when the 942's HD setup is set to a 16x9 display or 4:3#1.

So, this would suggest that if you want to use your display's aspect controls for the SD output, you may indeed need to set up some macros, which I know you don't want to do. However, if you are satisfied with the 942's stretch, zoom, or partial zoom modes, you can leave the 942 HD menu setup to 16x9 and you'll be all set. I think it really boils down to how much you want to use your display's stretch versus the 942's stretch for 4:3 content output as SD. For me, I'm quite satisfied with the 942's stretch mode. I'm also satisfied with the SD channels being upconverted to 1080i and I can stretch or zoom 4:3 or 4:3 letterboxed content with the 942's aspect modes to fill my 16x9 screen. So I never even use the SD output.

I know this is confusing. My head hurts from trying this and thinking about it. But it's about as far as I can go. You'll have to decide which method works out best for you. Good luck.


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

Thanks, Jerry. 

It took me awhile to read and re-read your posts carefully, and now my head hurts too! But I understand what you're saying.

Withour macros, and using the 942's stretch modes, are you cutting off some part of the image or stretching either horizontally or vertically. That is, does everyone look like Danny Devito or skinny as a rail?

Hopefully, this is my last question. Answer if you can, and then take two aspirins.


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

glulam said:


> You need to have the 942's output set to 480i or 480p to use you TV's formats to just/stretch/zoom.


No you don't


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## waltinvt (Feb 9, 2004)

I agree with JerryG in post # 25 - it really boils down to what you're satisfied with. The 942 increased the options with a software upgrade but I don't think there's one single perfect solution that will work for everyone in all cases.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

igleaner said:


> Withour macros, and using the 942's stretch modes, are you cutting off some part of the image or stretching either horizontally or vertically. That is, does everyone look like Danny Devito or skinny as a rail?


If I use the 942's "stretch" mode for 4:3 content, I don't think anything is cut off. It will uniformly stretch the image horizontally. But I don't find it too bad.

If the content is 1.85 widescreen in a 4:3 frame (that is side and top/bottom bars), I can use the zoom to fill a 16x9 screen without loss of content and without distortion. If the content is 2.35 widescreen in a 4:3 frame, the zoom aspect mode will leave top and bottom bars as expected. With 4:3 content (side bars but no top/bottom bars), you could zoom which will fill the sides, but the top/bottom part of the image will be cut off. But there will be no distortion/stretching.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

waltinvt said:


> No you don't


You may have misunderstood glulam's statement.

While there may be an exception I'm not aware of, essentially all widescreen HD sets lock into "Full" mode when they receive a 720p or 1080i signal, and the stretch, zoom, etc display modes for a widescreen HD set aren't functional. The display needs to receive a 480i or 480p signal for the display's aspect modes to function. I think this was a dump design from day 1 on the part of the set manufacturers. I don't think they really thought it through and didn't realize that 4:3 content would be broadcast in a 16:9 frame as 720 or 1080 and that viewers may want to stretch that 4:3 content.

One of the advantages to Dish's STBs is that the aspect modes do work even when outputting a 720 or 1080 signal. Most other STBs don't offer much in the way of aspect modes when outputting 720 or 1080.


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## zephyr (Jun 25, 2005)

waltinvt said:


> No you don't


For the Sony KV-34XBR910, using DVI or component inputs, the signal must be 480i or 480p for the TV's 'mode' button to work. As Jerry G says, it locks into 'full' when receiving a 720p or 1080i signal. Of course the SD (composite video) output could be used without changing the digital output.

I also agree with Jerry G's statement that this was dumb from day 1 on the part of TV manufacturers. The transition period to all 16:9 content will be a long one. How bad are these black bars for the tube?

At least our local PBS station broadcasts all their cool stuff letterboxed, so 'zoom' does not cut off much.


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## glulam (Aug 2, 2005)

igleaner said:


> glulam - Are you saying that the SD composite output is NOT always 480i?
> 
> If this is true, then it's back to long macros to switch between SD and HD again.
> 
> ...


To answer your question. Yes, the SD composite output IS ALWAYS 480 from the 942's TV2 output. If you connect TV1 output from the 942 to the TV's 1st input via DVI, and, TV2 output from the 942 to a TV's 2nd input via composite yellow then you can switch between your TV's video inputs for HD(at 720 or 1080) and SD(at 480). A drawback is you will loose PIP ability and some record one-watch another abilities because the 942 is now in duel mode instead of single TV mode.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

glulam said:


> To answer your question. Yes, the SD composite output IS ALWAYS 480 from the 942's TV2 output. If you connect TV1 output from the 942 to the TV's 1st input via DVI, and, TV2 output from the 942 to a TV's 2nd input via composite yellow then you can switch between your TV's video inputs for HD(at 720 or 1080) and SD(at 480). A drawback is you will loose PIP ability and some record one-watch another abilities because the 942 is now in duel mode instead of single TV mode.


Unless I'm misunderstanding, the above isn't correct. In single user mode, you can have simultaneous output of HD (HDMI or component) and SD (via composite). The same program is output to both TV1 and TV2 and all tuners are available, including PIP.

Dual mode means that one tuner will control TV1 and the other tuner will control TV2, so that you can output a different channel to TV1 and TV2. In this case, you do lose PIP.


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## glulam (Aug 2, 2005)

I stand corrected, thanks.


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