# Press Release - DISH Introduces Hopper and Joey



## Jason Nipp

*DISH introduces Hopper and Joey - next generation whole-home hd dvr Entertainment system*​· Features two-terabyte hard drive for up to 2,000 hours of entertainment
· Never miss a primetime network show with PrimeTime Anytime
· Records up to six programs in HD simultaneously, including PrimeTime Anytime
· Hopper and three small Joeys let viewers watch HD and control DVR in four rooms 
​
*Las Vegas - Jan. 9, 2012 - [NASDAQ: DISH] - *DISH Network L.L.C., the nation's third largest pay TV provider, today introduced a whole-home high definition DVR entertainment system featuring the award-winning Hopper™ and Joey™.

The Hopper HD DVR and accompanying small Joey set-top boxes create a whole-home HD DVR entertainment system that lets DISH customers easily record, pause, and play back shows from any room in the home. While most whole-home DVRs do not have the same DVR functionality on every TV, the Hopper and Joey whole-home system offers the same DVR functionality on every TV, letting customers pause, play and rewind both live and recorded HD programs in up to four rooms.

The Hopper was unveiled by DISH CEO Joe Clayton at the 2012 International CES in Las Vegas today, and it is already winning honors as a CES Innovations 2012 Design and Engineering Award honoree. Pricing and packaging will be announced later this quarter.

The main Hopper unit features:

Three satellite TV tuners 
A two-terabyte hard drive for up to 2,000 hours of video entertainment
Up to 250 hours of HD or up to 1,000 hours of SD user recordings
Bluetooth for linking to devices such as wireless headphones
Picture-in-picture for watching any two channels simultaneously
 
Combined with a Joey, the Hopper whole-home HD DVR system offers more advanced features:

750 MHz Broadcom processer - the fastest satellite receiver processor available today for a quick, responsive on-screen guide
Approximately 50 percent more energy efficient for a four-room installation than previous models
ZigBee RF4CE using a proprietary protocol remote with "remote control finder" alert
High definition user interface
Easy-to-use, fast, graphical, tile-based user interface with predictive search
Small, sleek chassis for convenient placement
 
"Building on a heritage of award-winning DVRs, DISH is proud to be the first to introduce a groundbreaking product that delivers the most choices for TV entertainment by integrating multiple sources of video into one set-top box," said DISH Network CEO Joe Clayton. "The Hopper gives our customers network TV shows on demand and thousands of family movie choices streaming or delivered to the hard drive. With its massive storage, the Hopper leads the industry in delivering the most entertainment options, bar none, for every member of the household."

*The Hopper - Endless Entertainment Options*

The Hopper's new, unparalleled feature, PrimeTime Anytime™ allows customers, with one click, to record using a single tuner all of the primetime TV programming from ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC - the networks that deliver the most popular shows during primetime. Once activated by a customer, PrimeTime Anytime records network programming in high definition, where available, every night and stores them for eight days after they have aired. This creates an on-demand library of approximately 100 hours of primetime TV shows, and makes it easy to catch up on episodes from last night and last week's airing.

The Hopper can record up to six TV shows at once (two live programs and four PrimeTime Anytime shows) while allowing viewers to watch up to four different recorded or on-demand shows in four rooms of the house, simultaneously. This gives a family a variety of options to control or view their recordings and to watch shows in any room from a single Hopper.

The Hopper's on-demand capabilities give access to DISH's Blockbuster @Home™ for $10 per month which is now enhanced with more than 10,000 total titles streaming to the TV. 

The Hopper also offers on-demand content for customers with limited or no Internet access with a feature called DISH Unplugged. This feature delivers via satellite hundreds of the most popular movies and TV shows to the hard drive, including transactional and authenticated videos on demand. DISH Unplugged provides a high quality picture without buffering and makes available many of the same streaming movie choices offered by Blockbuster @Home, including premium movie access.

And for subscribers of DISH's America's Top 120 programming package or greater, the Hopper provides whole-home music distribution from 73 SiriusXM channels, including album art and a unique collapsible list of music channels located at the top of the channel guide at Channel 99, making it faster and easier for SiriusXM music fans to find their favorite music.

Additionally, the Hopper will features TV apps that give viewers real time access to Facebook, Twitter, Pandora and photo sharing, as well as games, news, weather, sports, and stock quotes.

*TV Everywhere*

Customers can manage the Hopper via the Internet at www.DishOnline.com or the DISH Remote Access app, providing the ability to control DVR recordings on their tablets, smartphones and computers. Connecting the Hopper with DISH's Sling® Adapter provides customers the ability to watch and control all live TV channels, PrimeTime Anytime programs and the DVR on their computer, tablet or smartphone wherever they go. 

The Hopper and Joey are designed and engineered by EchoStar Corporation (NASDAQ: SATS). The Hopper works by distributing HD signals through existing co-axial cable in the home using the Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA) specification. The Hopper is powered by a Broadcom 750 MHz processor, the most powerful satellite TV processor available today delivering a fast and responsive on-screen guide and a graphical user interface that features channel logos to help search channels, movies or TV shows quickly. The advanced search platform also allows for navigation of programs across satellite TV, broadband and an optional external hard drive. 

For more information about the award-winning Hopper and Joey by DISH, including technical specifications, please visit www.dish.com/hopper.

To watch live TV on the iPad, subscribers need a Sling Adapter from DISH and a broadband-connected compatible DISH HD DVR receiver. More information is available at dishnetwork.com/tveverywhere/remoteaccess.

Hopper and Joey images are available at http://press.dishnetwork.com/Press-Center/Photo-Library.

# # # ​*About DISH Network*
DISH Network Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH), through its subsidiary DISH Network L.L.C., provides more than 13.945 million satellite TV customers, as of Sept. 30, 2011, with the highest quality programming and technology with the most choices at the best value, including HD Free for Life. Subscribers enjoy the largest high definition line-up with more than 200 national HD channels, the most international channels, and award-winning HD and DVR technology. DISH Network's subsidiary, Blockbuster L.L.C., delivers family entertainment to millions of customers around the world. DISH Network Corporation is a Fortune 200 company. Visit www.dish.com.


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## archer75

One hopper please! When can I get?


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## RasputinAXP

Man, this is what I wanted when I got the 922. I better get some consideration, here


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## ChAoTiCpInOy

Pricing? Availability?


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## trdrjeff

> The Hopper's new, unparalleled feature, PrimeTime Anytime™ allows customers, with one click, to record using a single tuner all of the primetime TV programming from ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC - the networks that deliver the most popular shows during primetime. Once activated by a customer, PrimeTime Anytime records network programming in high definition, where available, every night and stores them for eight days after they have aired. This creates an on-demand library of approximately 100 hours of primetime TV shows, and makes it easy to catch up on episodes from last night and last week's airing.


That's pretty slick especially using a single tuner to accomplish


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## Stuart Sweet

Looks good! Competition is always welcomed... well done, dish.


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## lpmiller

man, I hope this isn't a ok, wait till 2013 sort of thing.


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## davidmg1

This will be FREE with a two-year contract according to Vivek Khemka, Dish's VP of product management.

I suppose that is for new subscribers only?


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## shuye

Interesting idea - but this brings up a question:

With PrimeTime Anywhere, will it allow you to keep a show longer than 1 week if you watch it and want to save it for later, or if you don't get a chance to watch a show, can you single out 1 show from the evenings block of recordings and keep it longer than 1 week?


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## David Ortiz

shuye said:


> Interesting idea - but this brings up a question:
> 
> With PrimeTime Anywhere, will it allow you to keep a show longer than 1 week if you watch it and want to save it for later, or if you don't get a chance to watch a show, can you single out 1 show from the evenings block of recordings and keep it longer than 1 week?


From the press conference ... http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/01/dsc1597.jpg


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## bobukcat

My initial reactions / thoughts with the understanding that all the details weren't revealed here:

Lack of OTA is essentially a deal-breaker for me. I have one local station that D does not carry the HD feed for so getting it OTA is my only option for HD on that channel. Not having access to the secondary channels, especially the live weather / radar loop is also a deal killer for me. Hopefully there is some way to add OTA to it.

The Zigbee remote sounds great but I wonder if the boxes also support IR? Many of us have programmable remotes already and wouldn't really want to get rid of them or have to use an additional one.

Not enough tuners! I currently have two 622s with OTA on both so I've got a lot of recording capacity and find I need it quite often. I guess I could keep one 622 and my current distribution method for it but then I'm tying up a lot / possibly all the coax in my house I would need for the MOCA distribution to the Joey boxes.

I'm glad to see they are finally releasing a whole-home solution though.


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## 356B

davidmg1 said:


> This will be FREE with a two-year contract according to Vivek Khemka, Dish's VP of product management.
> 
> I suppose that is for new subscribers only?


 That sucks.....


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## klang

Info elsewhere from Vegas says OTA will be available via USB.


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## P Smith

klang said:


> Info elsewhere from Vegas says OTA will be available via USB.


Two USB ports - one for Sling other for OTA, so prepare USB 2.0 hub if you need also EHD.


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## archer75

P Smith said:


> Two USB ports - one for Sling other for OTA, so prepare USB 2.0 hub if you need also EHD.


Or use the built in one instead of sling as I imagine more people would want EHD rather than sling.

Pretty nice that you can record 6 prime time shows at once. Or three built in sat tuners. Then with a USB dongle you also get two additional OTA tuners. That's a crazy amount of TV you can record at once. If that's not enough for you, you watch way too much tv.

I definitely want one of these. I'm using a 722 and a Tivo just for space and tuners. So this one new receiver could happily replace both. I'm excited.


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## Blowgun

Jason Nipp said:


> A two-terabyte hard drive for up to 2,000 hours of video entertainment
> Up to 250 hours of HD or up to 1,000 hours of SD user recordings


Based on the above; if HD takes 4 times the space of SD recordings, and that is only 1000 or 250 hours respectively, where did the other 1000 or 250 hours go?


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## klang

Blowgun said:


> Based on the above; if HD takes 4 times the space of SD recordings, and that is only 1000 or 250 hours respectively, where did the other 1000 or 250 hours go?


Primetime Anywhere goes to a partition dedicated to Dish's use. I assume they will also download VOD selections there as well as they do today on the VIP DVRs.


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## eichenberg

lpmiller said:


> man, I hope this isn't a ok, wait till 2013 sort of thing.


Chatting with CSR now and they said they have no pricing info yet but it will release the first week of February.


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## Blowgun

klang said:


> Primetime Anywhere goes to a partition dedicated to Dish's use. I assume they will also download VOD selections there as well as they do today on the VIP DVRs.


If *P*r*I*me-*T*ime *A*nywhere does end up working that way when it's disabled, that will render half the hard drive useless for my needs.


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## klang

oops, that should have been PrimeTime Anytime. 

I think you can bank on the space not being available for other purposes, same as with our current DVRs.


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## archer75

Blowgun said:


> If *P*r*I*me-*T*ime *A*nywhere does end up working that way when it's disabled, that will render half the hard drive useless for my needs.


you still get the time they say you will get, which is 250 hours of HD. More than anything else dish has by miles.

And now your telling me that the primetime stuff goes on it's on partition and is not counted against that? I consider that a huge positive!


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## P Smith

Blowgun said:


> If *P*r*I*me-*T*ime *A*nywhere does end up working that way when it's disabled, that will render half the hard drive useless for my needs.


Usually the company doing hard coded partitioning - no one chance to do changes of that. It was same pitch from many ppl, when we got the knowledge how big dedicated partition for VOD on the ViP models [622]. No changes since that for 'new' 722, 722k and 922.


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## phrelin

eichenberg said:


> Chatting with CSR now and they said they have no pricing info yet but it will release the first week of February.


Let's not all get ahead of ourselves here.


Jason Nipp said:


> Pricing and packaging will be announced later this quarter.


And how many times do statements like this at CES end up actually being the 4th quarter of the year with an actual equipment availability date in the first half of following year?:sure:

NOTE: Early adopters will feel like Beta or even Alpha testers.


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## BobaBird

Indeed. Even the new advertising campaign they talked about they said wouldn't appear until next quarter.


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## Blowgun

klang said:


> oops, that should have been PrimeTime Anytime.


Not a problem. 

PrimeTime(sic) Anytime might be more useful if the technology allowed the user to pick which 4 channels and at what time to record. And as I mentioned in a different thread, have the ability to trim shows out of the block to store in the other partition for later viewing. Seeing as how that would require additional programming and it's to be released to the beta, I mean, subscribers soon, perhaps that will happen some point down the line. Well, it's wishful thinking. 



klang said:


> I think you can bank on the space not being available for other purposes, same as with our current DVRs.


I was hoping that DISH might have taken that into consideration. That the technology to move partitions, without destroying existing data, has been around for awhile.



archer75 said:


> you still get the time they say you will get, which is 250 hours of HD. More than anything else dish has by miles.
> 
> And now your telling me that the primetime stuff goes on it's on partition and is not counted against that? I consider that a huge positive!


Then you would absolutely love 500 hours of HD or 2000 hours of SD. 



P Smith said:


> Usually the company doing hard coded partitioning - no one chance to do changes of that. It was same pitch from many ppl, when we got the knowledge how big dedicated partition for VOD on the ViP models.


I remember that, and the complaints that followed about the poor placement of the intermediary screen, when all one wanted to do was go to Recorded Events.


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## P Smith

Blowgun said:


> Not a problem.
> 
> PrimeTime(sic) Anytime might be more useful if the technology allowed the user to pick which 4 channels and at what time to record. And as I mentioned in a different thread, have the ability to trim shows out of the block to store in the other partition for later viewing. Seeing as how that would require additional programming and it's to be released to the beta, I mean, subscribers soon, perhaps that will happen some point down the line. Well, it's wishful thinking.
> 
> I was hoping that DISH might have taken that into consideration. That the technology to move partitions, without destroying existing data, has been around for awhile.
> 
> *Then you would absolutely love 500 hours of HD or 2000 hours of SD. *
> 
> I remember that, and the complaints that followed about the poor placement of the intermediary screen, when all one wanted to do was go to Recorded Events.


Oops!
Counting 1 GB per one hour of HD in H.264 ]MPEG-4[ - user space is 250 GB from total 2000 GB [2 TB] drive ?! OMG ! 1/8 or 12.5% ....


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## BobaBird

Blowgun said:


> PrimeTime(sic) Anytime might be more useful if the technology allowed the user to pick which 4 channels and at what time to record. And as I mentioned in a different thread, have the ability to trim shows out of the block to store in the other partition for later viewing.


You get the big 4 because a) they're on the same transponder, otherwise you'd need another tuner and b) those are the ones with a contract agreement. So PBS and CW may be possible someday. And yes, you can move shows from the PTA block to be saved in your space (post #10).


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## P Smith

What about App Store ? Any press ?


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## kstruck

This sounds pretty cool. Was wondering when Dish would come up with a system like this. Quick question: I currently have the 922 and love the built in Sling so I can watch my DVR when traveling for work on my laptop or IPad. Is sling built into this or do I have to give up Sling if I pick one of these up?


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## P Smith

Nope, this time dish found new way to get your money - external Sling Adapter is required for 'slinging' from XiP813.


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## 356B

kstruck said:


> This sounds pretty cool. Was wondering when Dish would come up with a system like this. Quick question: I currently have the 922 and love the built in Sling so I can watch my DVR when traveling for work on my laptop or IPad. Is sling built into this or do I have to give up Sling if I pick one of these up?


TV Everywhere

"Customers can manage the Hopper via the Internet at www.DishOnline.com or the DISH Remote Access app, providing the ability to control DVR recordings on their tablets, smartphones and computers. Connecting the Hopper with DISH's Sling® Adapter provides customers the ability to watch and control all live TV channels, PrimeTime Anytime programs and the DVR on their computer, tablet or smartphone wherever they go." 

From the Dish press release.
m/press-releases/dish-introduces-hopper-and-joey-next-generation-nasdaq-dish-0838378


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## kstruck

Thanks gentlemen! Looks like another $100, but might be worth it since I can get rid of 2 722 and my 922 and just replace them all with this system and a sling adapter. All seems to be well thought out, just hope it works as advertised.


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## phrelin

OK, up to this point all the pix show 2 USB ports and an eSata port. If you have the supposed OTA receiver and the Sling Adapter, I guess you just throw out your old USB EHD's? They really couldn't put 4 working USB ports on this thing???


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## P Smith

phrelin said:


> OK, up to this point all the pix show 2 USB ports and an eSata port. If you have the supposed OTA receiver and the Sling Adapter, I guess you just throw out your old USB EHD's? They really couldn't put 4 working USB ports on this thing???


Deja vu ? Post#14 ?


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## phrelin

P Smith said:


> Deja vu ? Post#14 ?


Sorry, I missed that. On a 722k can people get away with using an autoselect USB hub for their Sling Adapter, EHD, and a usb drive with photos on it?


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## latempete

I have a standard USB 2.0 hub on my 722 with my external hard drive and Sling Adapter attached to it on the rear USB port. I have never tried a 3rd device.

As far as the Sling Adapter being an extra $100 ($99 to be specific)... When I got mine I paid up front and then got a prepaid credit card for the $99 I paid so it was basically free.


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## wafflejuice

phrelin said:


> Sorry, I missed that. On a 722k can people get away with using an autoselect USB hub for their Sling Adapter, EHD, and a usb drive with photos on it?


I've been using a D-Link 4-port powered USB hub with a Sling Adapter, Wi-Fi Adapter and EHD connected to the rear port of my 722k and it works great.


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## klang

I too use a powered USB hub with my 722. I wonder if there might also be a USB port on the front of the Hopper as well, similar to the VIP DVRs?


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## dpeters11

So, I'm assuming when they say it'll record the shows when Primetime Anytime is activated, that's not entirely accurate? I couldn't figure out how it's possible to use one tuner to get 4 networks at the same time, but in other places it sounds like it isn't recording them in the traditional sense.


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## dmspen

Connectivity between the Hopper and Joey (kinda silly names if you ask me) will be via coax. Since the only coax connectivity is between the LNB and my 3 current receivers, do you suppose additional coax will need to be run from the HJopper to the Joeys? In other words, 1 coax from LNB to Hopper, and one to a Joey? What if you want two Joeys? Coax from Joey to Joey? I'm sure the reason they chose to use coax was the bandwidth, but ethernet might have worked as well. Sounds like my walls are going to take a beating when this gets installed...someday.


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## garygaryj

dmspen said:


> Hopper and Joey (kinda silly names if you ask me)


I was going to say exactly that - Hopper and Joey seem like wrong marketing choices. I could be wrong, but using Australian Outback names to promote something for Dish's technical leap... it just seems like too much "dumbing down" to a clientele that is increasingly savvy to technical things.


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## Grandude

garygaryj said:


> I was going to say exactly that - Hopper and Joey seem like wrong marketing choices. I could be wrong, but using Australian Outback names to promote something for Dish's technical leap... it just seems like too much "dumbing down" to a clientele that is increasingly savvy to technical things.


I agree too. Has to be about the silliest names ever for a pair of really high tech products. If they do become available and I get one of each I'll rename mine Pete and Repeat.


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## bakerm5

dmspen said:


> Connectivity between the Hopper and Joey (kinda silly names if you ask me) will be via coax. Since the only coax connectivity is between the LNB and my 3 current receivers, do you suppose additional coax will need to be run from the HJopper to the Joeys? In other words, 1 coax from LNB to Hopper, and one to a Joey? What if you want two Joeys? Coax from Joey to Joey? I'm sure the reason they chose to use coax was the bandwidth, but ethernet might have worked as well. Sounds like my walls are going to take a beating when this gets installed...someday.


I was actually thinking they'd be using the same coax inside the walls. It's just that the sat signal goes only to the Hopper, it decodes it, then passes back through the wire over to the Joey. So all the coax gets tied together outside the walls.

Which if this is the case, and your Hopper dies for some reason, you couldn't watch anything on any of the Joey's either.


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## BobaBird

dpeters11 said:


> So, I'm assuming when they say it'll record the shows when Primetime Anytime is activated, that's not entirely accurate? I couldn't figure out how it's possible to use one tuner to get 4 networks at the same time, but in other places it sounds like it isn't recording them in the traditional sense.


It's recording the whole transponder stream which carries several channels. Traditionally, the tuner reads the stream and extracts the channel you selected. For PrimeTime Anytime, the extracting takes place after the whole stream is recorded.


bakerm5 said:


> It's just that the sat signal goes only to the Hopper, it decodes it, then passes back through the wire over to the Joey. So all the coax gets tied together outside the walls.


Correct, based on interpretation of the installation diagrams we've seen (picture links at http://www.dishuser.org/xip813.php)


> Which if this is the case, and your Hopper dies for some reason, you couldn't watch anything on any of the Joey's either.


The Joey doesn't have a tuner, it's just an interface to the Hopper which does all the work.


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## P Smith

MoCA client.


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## Paul Secic

lpmiller said:


> man, I hope this isn't a ok, wait till 2013 sort of thing.


It's in Alpha testing. It might be out by Dec.


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## TBoneit

P Smith said:


> Oops!
> Counting 1 GB per one hour of HD in H.264 ]MPEG-4[ - user space is 250 GB from total 2000 GB [2 TB] drive ?! OMG ! 1/8 or 12.5% ....


You can't say mpeg4 since the Hopper will also be sold to Western Arc customers it has to hold 250 hours of Mpeg2 and probably a lot more of Mpeg4.



garygaryj said:


> I was going to say exactly that - Hopper and Joey seem like wrong marketing choices. I could be wrong, but using Australian Outback names to promote something for Dish's technical leap... it just seems like too much "dumbing down" to a clientele that is increasingly savvy to technical things.


Maybe they are planning a Australian satellite service too. :sure:


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## klang

klang said:


> I too use a powered USB hub with my 722. I wonder if there might also be a USB port on the front of the Hopper as well, similar to the VIP DVRs?


The photos at Engadget do show a USB port on the front panel. So there are three. Suits me since I don't leave an EHD plugged in permanently to any of my receivers.


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## jeffdb27

No word of 3D with this?

Jeff


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## azjimbo

Love the concept, just wish there was at least one tuner in the Joey's. 

With only three tuners I won't be able to use it. The wife never watches recorded TV, I watch live cable news in the morning and early evenings (mostly recorded the rest of the time except for football and baseball) and the kids watch their stuff. Only three TV's but that could take up all the tuners, leaving none available to record anything.

Tomorrow for example, I have 10 programs scheduled to record on my 922 w/OTA between 7 and 9 pm, 5 of which would be covered by the PrimeTime Anytime tuner, and 5 on the other two tuners. But neither the wife or kids would be able watch live TV. (They currently share a 222)

Now I don't know if it's possible, but if I could get a 2nd Hopper and network them somehow so all recordings could be seen on all the TVs...


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## phrelin

klang said:


> The photos at Engadget do show a USB port on the front panel. So there are three. Suits me since I don't leave an EHD plugged in permanently to any of my receivers.


Ok. So we put a Sling Adapter in one back USB port, the OTA dual receiver in the other, and our EHD in the front.

Still don't see any reason why there aren't four USB ports in the back since everything seems to be USB. But at least everything is covered.


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## ggotch5445

Well I think I have to say that I'm feeling some disppointment that the Hopper/Joey link is not wireless. A truly wireless device would actually earn the name, "Hopper".

Such room portability seems to be what all of my friends have, or want. Myself as well. For all it's technology, this device seems like a suped-up "TV-2" output.

And I find it ironic, for myself anyway, that I use my 722 to record a very few number of shows because I have little time to stop and view TV. Now comes a device that is largely targeted to potentially record so much programming that I would need a special "sorting device" (maybe "Hopper's Pouch") to extract only the shows I really want to watch. 

I love having a DVR, and the Hopper appears, at first to be real cool, but my 722 seems to be plenty, at least for someone like me.


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## butters

jeffdb27 said:


> No word of 3D with this?
> 
> Jeff


From www.dishnetwork.com/hopper Looks like you are covered.

"Watch the latest movies in exciting 3D without a trip to the movie theater. Hopper includes On Demand, new-release 3D titles each month."


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## phrelin

Will it also serve cold drinks and hot snacks?:grin:


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## Blowgun

BobaBird said:


> You get the big 4 because a) they're on the same transponder, otherwise you'd need another tuner and b) those are the ones with a contract agreement. So PBS and CW may be possible someday. And yes, you can move shows from the PTA block to be saved in your space (post #10).


According to Engadget:
"*12:32PM Now we've got a screenshot of that Prime Time Anytime toggle, it will record from all four major networks, plus two other channels of your choosing."*​Apparently it isn't completely about contracts if you are allowed to pick "two other channels of your choosing".

When I mentioned trimming, I meant user selectable start/stop copying back to the user partition. Otherwise, if it is relying strictly on the guide to make the determination of start/stop, then that defeats a lot of the usefulness of the feature. Ultimately, I could set a timer and do a better job of dialing in shows which tend to run long.

Also, there is a big difference between moving and copying, with the latter being the preferred method. One would strongly hope that you don't get one shot at moving a show back to the user partition. Whereas, copying would allow for mistakes to be corrected.


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## butters

phrelin said:


> Will it also serve cold drinks and hot snacks?:grin:


It will but there is a $39 activation fee and a $10 monthly concessions charge. :lol:


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## phrelin

Blowgun said:


> According to Engadget:
> "*12:32PM Now we've got a screenshot of that Prime Time Anytime toggle, it will record from all four major networks, plus two other channels of your choosing."*​


I'm finding a lack clarity with that. It could simply be a confusing wording about "all four major networks" on the transponder, and two other channels from the two other receivers.



> When I mentioned trimming, I meant user selectable start/stop copying back to the user partition. Otherwise, if it is relying strictly on the guide to make the determination of start/stop, then that defeats a lot of the usefulness of the feature. Ultimately, I could set a timer and do a better job of dialing in shows which tend to run long.


That is an absolute requirement IMHO. If the guide is the source of start/stop then the feature is useless.



> Also, there is a big difference between moving and copying, with the latter being the preferred method. One would strongly hope that you don't get one shot at moving a show back to the user partition. Whereas, copying would allow for mistakes to be corrected.


This may be related to licensing issues, but I'm sure no one at Dish would be so foolish as to not realize it might be important to allow for errors by users....:sure:


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## Blowgun

phrelin said:


> They really couldn't put 4 working USB ports on this thing???


I agree. Imagine purchasing a new top of the line computer and there is only two USB ports. The answer isn't, "buy a hub".

Additionally, I guess USB 3.0 wasn't available at the time of manufacturing in China.


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## Blowgun

dmspen said:


> Hopper and Joey (kinda silly names if you ask me)....


I agree, it's cringing.



dmspen said:


> What if you want two Joeys?


According to the pictures I've seen, the "Hopper" has two female F-connectors on the back. One is for the sat input and the other is for the remote control antenna. The "Joey" has one F-connector. Both units have Ethernet, the "Hopper" has two connectors.

I don't know how the "Hopper" connects to the "Joey". Both F-connectors are accounted for, unless the signal is split at the sat input and sent back to the "Joey". In order to use two or more "joey" remote boxes, I would guess that you would need a passive bi-directional 1GHz MoCA splitter and could daisy chain them.

Update: Here's a wiring diagram:


----------



## jeffdb27

What wiring is required from the DISH? I have a 722k with only one wire and a spitter feeding the two tuners. With three tuners in "Hopper" how does this change? Are new LNBs required?

Thanks, Jeff


----------



## Blowgun

butters said:


> From www.dishnetwork.com/hopper Looks like you are covered.
> 
> "Watch the latest movies in exciting 3D without a trip to the movie theater. Hopper includes On Demand, new-release 3D titles each month."


Shortly, that might be the only place you can watch 3D titles. :lol:


----------



## jeffdb27

Imagine how much they will charge for On-Demand, HD, 3D movies... How about getting ESPN 3D and some other full time channels?

Jeff


----------



## P Smith

phrelin said:


> OK, up to this point all the pix show 2 USB ports and an eSata port. If you have the supposed OTA receiver and the Sling Adapter, I guess you just throw out your old USB EHD's? They really couldn't put 4 working USB ports on this thing???


I should correct myself - studying FCC picture, there are two USB ports on rear panel and one is hidden under front panel. So, the DVR has three USB ports. Nicely layout for OTA tuner, EHD and Sling Adapter. Finally someone did the math correctly. [And went out of budget with 10c dual USB socket on a back ]


----------



## P Smith

jeffdb27 said:


> What wiring is required from the DISH? I have a 722k with only one wire and a spitter feeding the two tuners. With three tuners in "Hopper" how does this change? Are new LNBs required?
> 
> Thanks, Jeff


EKB has all pictures: http://dishuser.org/xip813.php


----------



## GOMD

Don't want to ask an already addressed question, but will we be able to use the "Hopper" along with another standalone Dish DVR in the same household? I am not very interested in the whole home sharing, so could I potentially use the Hopper in the living room and a 722 seperately in a bedroom? Thanks to anyone who can provide info!!


----------



## P Smith

GOMD said:


> Don't want to ask an already addressed question, but will we be able to use the "Hopper" along with another standalone Dish DVR in the same household? I am not very interested in the whole home sharing, so could I potentially use the Hopper in the living room and a 722 seperately in a bedroom? Thanks to anyone who can provide info!!


If you have spare two coaxes from *DPP*(!) switch/antenna, then yes. Right above your post an URL to diagrams.


----------



## rpotts

Can't wait to order this - I've been jealous of UVerse and Direct TV for a long time.

This is awesome - whole house DVR with extrnal hard drive ability. 

I would have left long ago if anyone else offered this functionality.


----------



## BobaBird

Blowgun said:


> According to Engadget:
> "*12:32PM Now we've got a screenshot of that Prime Time Anytime toggle, it will record from all four major networks, plus two other channels of your choosing."*​Apparently it isn't completely about contracts if you are allowed to pick "two other channels of your choosing".





phrelin said:


> I'm finding a lack clarity with that. It could simply be a confusing wording about "all four major networks" on the transponder, and two other channels from the two other receivers.


Yes, tuners, they would be from the other tuners.



Blowgun said:


> When I mentioned trimming, I meant user selectable start/stop copying back to the user partition. Otherwise, if it is relying strictly on the guide to make the determination of start/stop, then that defeats a lot of the usefulness of the feature. Ultimately, I could set a timer and do a better job of dialing in shows which tend to run long.





phrelin said:


> That is an absolute requirement IMHO. If the guide is the source of start/stop then the feature is useless.


The guide is the source _but_ it recognizes your start early / end late recording defaults and applies them to both playback from the PTAT list and saving to your DVR space.



Blowgun said:


> Also, there is a big difference between moving and copying, with the latter being the preferred method. One would strongly hope that you don't get one shot at moving a show back to the user partition. Whereas, copying would allow for mistakes to be corrected.





phrelin said:


> This may be related to licensing issues, but I'm sure no one at Dish would be so foolish as to not realize it might be important to allow for errors by users....:sure:


I'll try to remember to ask, but my thought is it should be a copy as the PTAT recording will be auto-purged after 8 days anyway.



jeffdb27 said:


> What wiring is required from the DISH? I have a 722k with only one wire and a spitter feeding the two tuners. With three tuners in "Hopper" how does this change? Are new LNBs required?


RG6 from the dish to the Hopper, the Joeys can be connected using older RG59.


----------



## 63thk

This may just be what brings me back to DISH . If I can just get by the lame name(s). It sounds like a Disney kids show


----------



## BobaBird

I've added photos to the press conference report at http://www.dishuser.org/ces2012.php.


----------



## garygaryj

BobaBird said:


> I've added photos to the press conference report at http://www.dishuser.org/ces2012.php.


Thanks for the photos. Somewhat encouraging to 922 owners - to see that they essentially are using the 922 GUI... this could mean that they intend to keep the GUI programming and functionalities close to each other, and it could mean that they don't intend to abandon the 922 for improvements.... I hope.


----------



## HoTat2

Hey, not greatly familiar with Dish stuff, but if the Hopper is receiving the standard satellite input frequency stack of 950-1450 Mhz and 1650-2150 Mhz from the dish antenna, then it can't be using the 1 Ghz range MoCA frequencies to communicate with the Joeys (BTW, I agree, silly names).

Therefore, is Dish also using frequencies below 950 Mhz in the OTA range like DIRECTV's DECAs to communicate to the Joeys?


----------



## renpar61

I don't understand all the silly tech talk...

I just WANT ONE!!!!


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Hey, not greatly familiar with Dish stuff, but if the Hopper is receiving the standard satellite input frequency stack of 950-1450 Mhz and 1650-2150 Mhz from the dish antenna, then it can't be using the 1 Ghz range MoCA frequencies to communicate with the Joeys (BTW, I agree, silly names).
> 
> Therefore, is Dish also using frequencies below 950 Mhz in the OTA range like DIRECTV's DECAs to communicate to the Joeys?


I see a new box - Solo/Duo Node box - could have filters to re-use same freq in different cables: to XiP813 and to 110s.


----------



## normang

garygaryj said:


> I was going to say exactly that - Hopper and Joey seem like wrong marketing choices. I could be wrong, but using Australian Outback names to promote something for Dish's technical leap... it just seems like too much "dumbing down" to a clientele that is increasingly savvy to technical things.


You must be in a circle of tech savvy people, because a lot of people are not tech savvy, far more than those who are.. You can see this if you stand around a BB for a while and listen to the questions some people ask.


----------



## garygaryj

:grin: Hey, I was simply trying to say that (being one who does watch the forums) that more often than not, most are above the Kindergarten level of the Hopper & Joey names and cartoon figures.


----------



## TBoneit

garygaryj said:


> I was going to say exactly that - Hopper and Joey seem like wrong marketing choices. I could be wrong, but using Australian Outback names to promote something for Dish's technical leap... it just seems like too much "dumbing down" to a clientele that is increasingly savvy to technical things.


I pm'd this to someone in Melbourne

"Thought you might get a kick out of this?

http://ces.cnet.com/8301-33376_1-57...ed-satellite-broadband-service/?tag=cnetRiver

"LAS VEGAS--More music, more magic, more memory, more movies.

That's the marketing message Dish is serving up here at CES, introducing a new kangaroo-themed, whole-home HD DVR system called the Hopper that includes a 2TB drive and can record up to six programs simultaneously while pushing content out to accompanying "Joey" boxes in up to three additional room""

I got back a lol! and a rolling around hysterically smiley.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> I see a new box - Solo/Duo Node box - could have filters to re-use same freq in different cables: to XiP813 and to 110s.


Come to think of it P. Smith, I wonder if those Solo or Duo node boxes actually translate the Hopper's satellite input to a whole different frequency scheme since Dish's conventional approach of feeding a stacked 950-1450 and 1650-2150 Mhz would cause a problem with a now third tuner in the mix since how does it get it's needed channel set if different from the other two?

Really need to see the specs. to understand this better.


----------



## normang

phrelin said:


> Still don't see any reason why there aren't four USB ports in the back since everything seems to be USB. But at least everything is covered.


A powered hub would probably work instead of plugging something into the front port. Its not optimal. It would be nice if they had more ports, but hubs are cheap.


----------



## TBoneit

Not to mention a External with eSATA & USB would be better for the eSATA speed advantage. Thus freeing up the two rear USB ports and while still having a EHD plugged in.

In some ways this is a better box than the HR-34 since you'd never have to remember to program in the 4 networks. I could see me not having to look at the prime time guide in the future.

Prime Time Anytime!

Ability to archive to EHD!

More national HD channels for the non sports types.

250 Hours of HD which I suspect would be a lot higher on EA installs.

The HR-34 is a nice box but having any EHD tied to the box only is a bad thing.


----------



## normang

garygaryj said:


> :grin: Hey, I was simply trying to say that (being one who does watch the forums) that more often than not, most are above the Kindergarten level of the Hopper & Joey names and cartoon figures.


Is this the first time that companies have tried to market tech with cute and furry animals?


----------



## n0qcu

TBoneit said:


> 250 Hours of HD which I suspect would be a lot higher on EA installs.


EA or WA absolutely no difference *ALL HD is MPEG-4.*

Now the 1000 hours of *SD* programming will vary between EA & WA


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Come to think of it P. Smith, I wonder if those Solo or Duo node boxes actually translate the Hopper's satellite input to a whole different frequency scheme since Dish's conventional approach of feeding a stacked 950-1450 and 1650-2150 Mhz would cause a problem with a now third tuner in the mix since how does it get it's needed channel set if different from the other two?
> 
> Really need to see the specs. to understand this better.


Sure, studying MoCA specs would help; for sure I know the communication MoCA channel between 813 and 110 using 256QAM modulation. I think MoCA should regimenting frequencies ... Lets check those spec...


----------



## P Smith

n0qcu said:


> EA or WA absolutely no difference *ALL HD is MPEG-4.*
> 
> Now the 1000 hours of *SD* programming will vary between EA & WA


I think the number [250 hrs or 250 GB] is a limit for one client/tuner; or the number would look ridicules as usable space for users: *12.5%* off 2 TB drive.


----------



## P Smith

normang said:


> Is this the first time that companies have tried to market tech with cute and furry animals?


Where is PETA protests for limiting living space of the creatures inside of the small black boxes ?!


----------



## tivoboy

Finally, I can leave directv for something better!


----------



## tm22721

I want a general purpose whole house media server not constrained by Hollywood.

All that I need from Dish are expansion tuners and a program guide.

This is NOT it.


----------



## Blowgun

What about the brand of the 2 TB drive in the 813 (sounds better)? It goes without saying that it's still early to know which brand is going to be initially used. Yet, in general a lot of recent hard drive reviews I've read indicate that a portion of large capacity drives (greater than 1 GB) are either DOA from the factory or shortly thereafter, going belly up. Longevity seems to be with the older and smaller capacity drives.

Making matters worse, floods, production issues and increasing costs, might mean that the 2 TB drive that's installed may come from various sources. Which could contribute to an increase of inconsistent quality among the 813 receivers.

I see from other images that the fan is on the left side and a vent on the right. I'm guessing that they placed the hard drive next to the vent. I attempted to look at the insides from the link at EKB, but the FCC page returns, "You are not authorized to access this page." BobaBird, you might want to look into why the page is not accessible.


----------



## RAD

Has it been said out of the 2TB on the harddrive how much will the customer partition be vs. the Dish partition? I ask since the Hopper supports "Dish Unplugged" which according to their PR says:



> The Hopper also offers on-demand content for customers with limited or no Internet access with a feature called DISH Unplugged. This feature delivers via satellite hundreds of the most popular movies and TV shows to the hard drive, including transactional and authenticated videos on demand. DISH Unplugged provides a high quality picture without buffering and makes available many of the same streaming movie choices offered by Blockbuster @Home, including premium movie access.


So if they are force downloading 'hundreds of the most popular movies and TV shows to the hard drive' how much space is that taking out of that 2GB?


----------



## HoTat2

RAD said:


> Has it been said out of the 2TB on the harddrive how much will the customer partition be vs. the Dish partition? I ask since the Hopper supports "Dish Unplugged" which according to their PR says:
> 
> So if they are force downloading 'hundreds of the most popular movies and TV shows to the hard drive' how much space is that taking out of that 2GB?


As far as known its 1 TB available to the user and 1 TB allocated for reserved space for purely DN controlled stuff.

Now how much of this 1 TB of reserved space is then set aside for "Dish Unplugged" programming, PrimeTime Anytime (PTAT), or other features are unknown AFAIK.


----------



## Rasterburn

i dont know about this device. In my opinion, with anything from Dish it's like having a Mansion built in a ghetto! In the long run it is not worth it and has more problems then benefits


----------



## VDP07

Rasterburn said:


> i dont know about this device. In my opinion, with anything from Dish it's like having a Mansion built in a ghetto! In the long run it is not worth it and has more problems then benefits


If you have to explain an analogy, it's not a very good one. What does the "Mansion in a ghetto" portion of your post refer to?


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Sure, studying MoCA specs would help; for sure I know the communication MoCA channel between 813 and 110 using 256QAM modulation. I think MoCA should regimenting frequencies ... Lets check those spec...


After some more thought P. Smith, if I were a betting man (which I'm really not BTW, since I've mostly been a loser whenever I've gambled in life  ), I would wager that for the XiP Solo Node with two coax drops illustrated coming from a Dish 1000.x is to allow access to three 500 Mhz DPP blocks (the fourth block is discarded or ignored) for the three tuners on the Hopper.

The difference I think is that since only one coax cable feeds the Hopper, there seems to be no choice but for the Node to frequency translate one of the DPP blocks to up above 2150 Mhz to maybe 2350-2850 Mhz (assuming the same standard 200 Mhz guard band between the blocks) for the third tuner.

This would then certainly mandate that the MoCA frequencies used for the Hopper to communicate with the Joeys is somewhere below 950 Mhz, ala DIRECTV's DECA technology which is centered at 550 Mhz.

And if so, as with DIRECTV's WHDVR service, its bye-bye to OTA diplexing for this system.

Now photos of the "XiP Duo Node" shows three inputs for drop lines from a Dish 1000.x. This appears to be for a setup with two Hoppers to allow subscribers (who wish to pay for an addtional unit  ) a combined total of more than six tuners with three DPP blocks split to each Hopper satellite output of the Node to supply them.

And I think its likely that the two Hopper output ports on the Duo Node are internally connected by a data crossover bridge so the opposite Hopper/Joey network can communicate with the other. That is in a way similar to DIRECTV's DECA crossover bridge on the SWiM-16.

So what do you, (or anyone else) think?


----------



## BobaBird

Blowgun said:


> I attempted to look at the insides from the link at EKB, but the FCC page returns, "You are not authorized to access this page." BobaBird, you might want to look into why the page is not accessible.


I get the same error and don't recall how the page was titled. Searching for xip813 yields no results.


HoTat2 said:


> The difference I think is that since only one coax cable feeds the Hopper, there seems to be no choice but for the Node to frequency translate one of the DPP blocks to up above 2150 Mhz to maybe 2350-2850 Mhz (assuming the same standard 200 Mhz guard band between the blocks) for the third tuner.


There's a plausible theory. Dish already does that for some commercial installations with a stacker/de-stacker pair.


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> ...
> assuming the same standard 200 Mhz guard band between the blocks
> ...
> As far as known its 1 TB available to the user and 1 TB allocated for reserved space for purely DN controlled stuff.
> 
> Now how much of this 1 TB of reserved space is then set aside for "Dish Unplugged" programming, PrimeTime Anytime (PTAT), or other features are unknown AFAIK.


Who knows, if they use that wide blocks, perhaps 100 MHz? We will check it with spectrum analyzer soon.
They told at CES, user will have 250 hrs for HD, what equal 250 GB of storage ie 12.5% of the drive size. Not clear, but most likely it's true for all clients.


----------



## P Smith

Blowgun said:


> What about the brand of the 2 TB drive in the 813 (sounds better)? It goes without saying that it's still early to know which brand is going to be initially used. Yet, in general a lot of recent hard drive reviews I've read indicate that a portion of large capacity drives (greater than 1 GB) are either DOA from the factory or shortly thereafter, going belly up. Longevity seems to be with the older and smaller capacity drives.
> 
> Making matters worse, floods, production issues and increasing costs, might mean that the 2 TB drive that's installed may come from various sources. Which could contribute to an increase of inconsistent quality among the 813 receivers.
> 
> I see from other images that the fan is on the left side and a vent on the right. I'm guessing that they placed the hard drive next to the vent. I attempted to look at the insides from the link at EKB, but the FCC page returns, "You are not authorized to access this page." BobaBird, you might want to look into why the page is not accessible.


I posted FCC cert PDF in my thread here - "XiP813", it was Seagate that time, but they have WD and Hitachi 2 TB approved drives.


----------



## HoTat2

BobaBird said:


> I get the same error and don't recall how the page was titled. Searching for xip813 yields no results.
> There's a plausible theory. Dish already does that for some commercial installations with a stacker/de-stacker pair.


Yeah ...

And if my theory is correct its the limitation of DN's traditional signal stacking approach this way that was probably a contributing factor in the decision for only three satellite tuners per Hopper. Even if we were to grant P. Smith's suggestion of a reduced guard band of say 100 Mhz between the DPP blocks. To accommodate something like five tuners in one Hopper as with DIRECTV's HR34 would mean coax frequencies extending up to 3850 Mhz for feeding all those tuners in one Hopper.

Therefore, the only reasonable (though perhaps more cumbersome and costly), way to add more tuners in Dish's MRV system is to add another Hopper effectively in parallel though the use of the XiP Duo Node.


----------



## TBoneit

n0qcu said:


> EA or WA absolutely no difference *ALL HD is MPEG-4.*
> 
> Now the 1000 hours of *SD* programming will vary between EA & WA


Oh yes, I knew that once you reminded me. Big OOPS!

I'm not sure but SD used to be 800Mbs to 1Gbs per hours a few years ago. Which makes the me think I should record a hour of SD and HD and then see what size is reported when moving them to an EHD. If you only do 1 at a time the size should be reported accurate.

One other thought is that they may give more bandwidth to premiums than non premiums?


----------



## eichenberg

TBoneit said:


> Oh yes, I knew that once you reminded me. Big OOPS!
> 
> I'm not sure but SD used to be 800Mbs to 1Gbs per hours a few years ago. Which makes the me think I should record a hour of SD and HD and then see what size is reported when moving them to an EHD. If you only do 1 at a time the size should be reported accurate.
> 
> One other thought is that they may give more bandwidth to premiums than non premiums?


I often wonder how accurate the xx hours for SD and HD are. For example we went on vacation for two weeks. Came back and had 15 1 hour shows recorded in HD. However, my HD counter said I had 44 hours of HD recordring remaining out of 50 and something like 197 hours of SD. So those 15 hours of HD only took up 6 hours of the HD and 3 hours of SD recording capacity.


----------



## puckwithahalo

eichenberg said:


> I often wonder how accurate the xx hours for SD and HD are. For example we went on vacation for two weeks. Came back and had 15 1 hour shows recorded in HD. However, my HD counter said I had 44 hours of HD recordring remaining out of 50 and something like 197 hours of SD. So those 15 hours of HD only took up 6 hours of the HD and 3 hours of SD recording capacity.


I could be wrong, but I believe the estimates given by the receiver are for uncompressed signal, but most, if not all, of the HD programs that come across the dish are compressed.


----------



## n0qcu

puckwithahalo said:


> I could be wrong, but I believe the estimates given by the receiver are for uncompressed signal, but most, if not all, of the HD programs that come across the dish are compressed.


You wont find an uncompressed signal even OTA is MPEG-2 compressed.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Some cleanup... I have closed two other Hopper/Joey/XIP813 threads so we can be more focused. I decided not to merge them because there is already duplicated content and I thought it would just be confusing.

Please continue using this thread for all discussion and look to the following thread for photos from CES:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2938325#post2938325

IF there is a post in one of the closed threads that still bears further discussion, you are welcome to re-ask or post in this thread to continue the talk.


----------



## P Smith

[I expect to keep technical details in my thread, but you decide to mix buzz with techno ... well, will see how it will works]

From XiP100 aka Joey - use BCM7340 and interesting detail about MoCA freqs:
*Broadcom's flexible architecture also allows MoCA tuning from 500 to 1500 MHz (to be compatible with satellite signals on the same coax). *
The chip is not support own DVR functions, for that is exist BCM7342:
*The BCM7342 is identical to the BCM7340 with the addition of DVR watch and record capabilities. It also integrates a dual tuner/demodulator from Broadcom's BCM4506 front-end technology (versus the single tuner/demodulator of the BCM7340 that uses Broadcom's BCM4505 front-end technology). *


----------



## Blowgun

bobabird (in the other thread) said:


> blowgun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know how DISH determine 53 percent? It sounds like DISH is collecting subscriber information from their receivers or it's a limited sample based on website traffic.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's from what the STB reports to the mother ship.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Do you know how much information is obtained by the mother ship? For example, do they know who you are, if you paused and if you skipped a commercial, even while watching a recorded event? Or is the simple answer, everything?

Whatever the extent, I doubt what's collected stays in-house. And, to keep this on topic, I wonder if the new Hopper also contains improvements to these "features".



blowgun (in the other thread) said:


> p smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> - purpose of second Ethernet port ?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopper stacking for additional Joey's?
Click to expand...

Based on the above, I'm not all that thrilled to even use the first Ethernet port. 



bobabird (in this thread) said:


> I get the same error and don't recall how the page was titled. Searching for xip813 yields no results.


Perhaps the answer is in the locked "XiP813" thread from P Smith, which is located HERE. In that thread, P Smith included the FCC ID to search the FCC and attached a PDF document which includes two internal images. Perhaps this was what you linked?

Speaking of images; I was surprised to see the big red reset button behind the door. Not that I was expecting to see a button the size need by a skier with gloves on, just that it would be placed more conveniently on the front. Such as how the dual purpose power button worked. I guess these days the reset button is considered as one of those seldom used buttons now that programming has improved so much. :grin:

In any case, whether the Hopper uses Hitachi, Seagate or Western Digital drives, and how well those 2 TB hard drives in the first batch of Hoppers holds up, remains to be seen. With more than 75 percent of the drive used exclusively for DISH purposes, the drives are probably going to rack as they suck up all that daily data. It's no wonder they added a heat exhaust pipe to the hard drive directly in front of the fan.

I suppose DISH can sell some of that customer data they're collecting back to the respective failed hard drive manufacturers. That way later batches of Hoppers, we'll call them Rev B models, will not only have the motherboard improvements, but will also have the improved 2 TB hard drives. Perhaps I'll wait for Rev C just in case. :lol:


----------



## BobaBird

P Smith said:


> Broadcom's flexible architecture also allows MoCA tuning from 500 to 1500 MHz (to be compatible with satellite signals on the same coax).


I'm told you won't be able to diplex OTA to the in-home coax network (it would need to be broken out before the XiP node) due to possible interference with the MoCA signal. What is the freq range of OTA?



Blowgun said:


> Interesting. Do you know how much information is obtained by the mother ship?


No idea, but don't you think you could find a healthier snack than that? 


> Perhaps the answer is in the locked "XiP813" thread from P Smith, which is located HERE. In that thread, P Smith included the FCC ID to search the FCC and attached a PDF document which includes two internal images. Perhaps this was what you linked?


It was a direct link copied from the huge thread on the other site. Just tried to find it at FCC and now getThere are no applications on file that match the search criteria specified: 
Product Code: DKNTK421​I need to head back over to CES to get some more answers and don't have time to do more searching, but would like to get that link fixed.


----------



## BobaBird

Tried one more thing and found it! Internal pics are at https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=1520676 and the EKB link has been updated.

Also, the model name on the Sys Info screen and back label is Hopper 2000.


----------



## HoTat2

BobaBird said:


> I'm told you won't be able to diplex OTA to the in-home coax network (it would need to be broken out before the XiP node) due to possible interference with the MoCA signal. *What is the freq range of OTA?* ...


Before the DTV transition it was 54-806 Mhz for TV channels 2-69.

Post-transition is now 54-698 Mhz for TV channels 2-51.

And this is additional confirmation of what I have suggested that the Hopper and Joeys are using a sub-950 Mhz frequency band for MoCA communication same as with DIRECTV. In fact they may even use the same band of 550 ± 25Mhz. So look for some Dish subs to complain as well about the loss of OTA diplexing.

Say BobaBird, if you have the time can you find out if there is any Dish rep. on the ground there at CES who can confirm my other theory about the XiP Node as to whether it internally frequency translates one of the DPP blocks up to above 2150 Mhz for the third tuner of the Hopper?


----------



## BobaBird

It's in my notes from yesterday. DishPro Extreme (dpX) pushes one of the bands into a 3rd range above regular DP stacking. The rep wasn't sure what the range was. It doesn't go to a 4th range like the stacker/de-stacker.


----------



## jimb

Explain the Joey box, if I have currently have 2 DVRs, replacing the 1st with a hopper and I remove the 2nd a vip 622 and plug in a Joey connecting it to the existing coax cable from the 622, what can be done to get a 3rd TV? Can the 3rd TV use another Joey and connect to just an Ethernet or wifi to access the Hopper?


----------



## jefte1

have a 722 ,I know on my hd receiver the end of certain shows cut off by 30 seconds or so. I know when I had direct ,none of this happened. Will the new Hopper correct this with out having to extend the recording time?Seams like the recording stops just shy of the hour. for example, if a show ends at 9pm the recording stops just shy of 9pm.Just wondering thanks. Also the hooper is suppose to record all the network shows with one push of a button and delete after 1 week. what if you want certain shows to stay until you get the time to watch them.I certain shows now and watch them when i can,sometimes it will take me longer than a week to watch my shows. thanks again for all info.


----------



## P Smith

BobaBird said:


> Tried one more thing and found it! Internal pics are at https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/GetApplicationAttachment.html?id=1520676 and the EKB link has been updated.
> 
> Also, the model name on the Sys Info screen and back label is Hopper 2000.


Still getting "You are not authorized to access this page." ...

Right. As I pointed before: "Hopper 2000".


----------



## P Smith

BobaBird said:


> It's in my notes from yesterday. DishPro Extreme (dpX) pushes one of the bands into a 3rd range above regular DP stacking. The rep wasn't sure what the range was. It doesn't go to a 4th range like the stacker/de-stacker.


Umm, why you're looking for higher freq ? 
Using two cables with DPP technology give you FOUR 500 MHz bands (ie one half of any sat) what is more then enough for three sat tuners.
For Duo Node - three cables provide SIX bands - exactly a number of tuners.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Umm, why you're looking for higher freq ?
> Using two cables with DPP technology give you FOUR 500 MHz bands (ie one half of any sat) what is more then enough for three sat tuners.
> For Duo Node - three cables provide SIX bands - exactly a number of tuners.


Yes P. Smith, but there is only one satellite coax cable from a Node feeding a Hopper. So how would you get the third 500 Mhz DPP band block for the third tuner on one cable if not through frequency stacking it somewhere above 2150 Mhz?


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Yes P. Smith, but there is only one satellite coax cable from a Node feeding a Hopper. So how would you get the third 500 Mhz DPP band block for the third tuner on one cable if not through frequency stacking it somewhere above 2150 Mhz?


Duh! ... Well, that is what I missed ... Give me the box, I'll post a spectrogram.


----------



## sulu600

bobukcat said:


> My initial reactions / thoughts with the understanding that all the details weren't revealed here:
> 
> Lack of OTA is essentially a deal-breaker for me. I have one local station that D does not carry the HD feed for so getting it OTA is my only option for HD on that channel. Not having access to the secondary channels, especially the live weather / radar loop is also a deal killer for me. Hopefully there is some way to add OTA to it.


Ditto on the OTA. Sure hope there is a way to squeeze another tuner in there. If they can record 6 channel at once, surely there is a way to add OTA. All stations are taking advantage of the additional channels that digital tv allows. I get more channels free over the air than I got when I first signed up for cable 30 years ago.

Also not very happy about total abandoning of the Vip 922. Noticed in the Expanded Block Buster Movie Pass thread that the Vip 922 is not listed in supported reciever/DVRs. Third refurbished 922 already starting to act up.

Steve


----------



## Blowgun

BobaBird said:


> No idea, but don't you think you could find a healthier snack than that?


I did write SHIP, not CHIP. 



BobaBird said:


> Tried one more thing and found it! Internal pics are at [URL removed] and the EKB link has been updated.


Unfortunately, that URL also doesn't work and ultimately you may have to store the file locally and link from that. Click HERE to download the PDF or use this URL directly. The URL is from P Smiths original post.



jimb said:


> Explain the Joey box, if I have currently have 2 DVRs, replacing the 1st with a hopper and I remove the 2nd a vip 622 and plug in a Joey connecting it to the existing coax cable from the 622, what can be done to get a 3rd TV? Can the 3rd TV use another Joey and connect to just an Ethernet or wifi to access the Hopper?


Here's a typical wiring diagram:












jefte1 said:


> I know on my hd receiver the end of certain shows cut off by 30 seconds or so.


It could be that DISH system time is not in sync with the networks time, the receiver doesn't flush the record buffer and/or the networks is intentionally running the blocks long. DISH timers work on 5 minute intervals, so without adding padding to the timer you'll going to miss the end of the show. And, if you are running back to back timers on different networks, other than finding a different airing, there's usually not much you can do.



jefte1 said:


> Will the new Hopper correct this with out having to extend the recording time?


As I understand, the Prime-Time Anytime feature records all four networks in their entirety between 8pm and 11pm. I'm told that you can then COPY what you want out of this. What isn't clear is whether the copy will be based on the guide data or you'll be able to pad the copy. If it's the former, you'll run into the same problem.



jefte1 said:


> Seams like the recording stops just shy of the hour. for example, if a show ends at 9pm the recording stops just shy of 9pm.


If you are not recording back to back shows and you don't have padding set, then it sounds like a network time sync issue.



jefte1 said:


> Also the hooper is suppose to record all the network shows with one push of a button and delete after 1 week. what if you want certain shows to stay until you get the time to watch them.I certain shows now and watch them when i can,sometimes it will take me longer than a week to watch my shows.


You'll have to save them out of Prime-Time Anytime, otherwise they will fall off the back and be replaced with the following weeks recording.

I personally don't find the Prime-Time Anytime feature all that compelling, so I would probably disable it and set timers the way I have always set timers.


----------



## eichenberg

Blowgun said:


> I personally don't find the Prime-Time Anytime feature all that compelling, so I would probably disable it and set timers the way I have always set timers.


If one were to disable the PTAT feature, would you then have 6 tuners to record from or 3 or some other number?


----------



## HoTat2

eichenberg said:


> If one were to disable the PTAT feature, would you then have 6 tuners to record from or 3 or some other number?


Three tuners per Hopper, with the XiP Duo Node allowing two Hoppers max. per install for a combined six tuners.

Additional tuners to the Hopper from an optional OTA module, if it exist, has not yet been determined.


----------



## BobaBird

P Smith said:


> Still getting "You are not authorized to access this page." ...


 It worked when I posted, now it doesn't. Try from search results page, click Int Photos 2, might see the error but wait for the refresh.


P Smith said:


> Umm, why you're looking for higher freq ?
> Using two cables with DPP technology give you FOUR 500 MHz bands (ie one half of any sat) what is more then enough for three sat tuners.


Because 3 sat tuners is not enough for 4 rooms to watch live.


> For Duo Node - three cables provide SIX bands - exactly a number of tuners.


And it occurs to me that may be why 1 Hopper has 3, half of the 6 available to the Duo Node off a 1000.x, instead of the 4 using the stacker they already have.


Blowgun said:


> As I understand, the Prime-Time Anytime feature records all four networks in their entirety between 8pm and 11pm. I'm told that you can then COPY what you want out of this. What isn't clear is whether the copy will be based on the guide data or you'll be able to pad the copy. If it's the former, you'll run into the same problem.


The Save from PTAT function and playback from the PTAT list both go by your DVR start early / end late defaults.


> If you are not recording back to back shows and you don't have padding set, then it sounds like a network time sync issue.
> 
> You'll have to save them out of Prime-Time Anytime, otherwise they will fall off the back and be replaced with the following weeks recording.


You will have last Friday and this Friday, and will lose last Friday on Saturday.


> I personally don't find the Prime-Time Anytime feature all that compelling, so I would probably disable it and set timers the way I have always set timers.


You have to choose to enable it. If there's a night you don't want it, make sure to disable it _before_ prime-time starts because you won't be able to stop it once it starts.


eichenberg said:


> If one were to disable the PTAT feature, would you then have 6 tuners to record from or 3 or some other number?


3 tuners. You get the effect of having 6 during p-t because the 4 channels PTAT records are on the same transponder and it extracts 4 channels at once from the stream instead of just 1 as we've had to this point.


----------



## koralis

sulu600 said:


> Also not very happy about total abandoning of the Vip 922. Noticed in the Expanded Block Buster Movie Pass thread that the Vip 922 is not listed in supported reciever/DVRs. Third refurbished 922 already starting to act up.
> 
> Steve


I'd read one post by a dish rep that said post-hopper the 922 would be available as a free subscriber update w/ 2 year commit. Wouldn't happen until they got BBMP working though. Doesn't sound like abandonment... sounds like it's taking longer than they thought.


----------



## phrelin

sulu600 said:


> Also not very happy about total abandoning of the Vip 922. Noticed in the Expanded Block Buster Movie Pass thread that the Vip 922 is not listed in supported reciever/DVRs. Third refurbished 922 already starting to act up.
> 
> Steve


Dish won't be "abandoning" the ViP DVR line any time soon. And that includes the 922.

As I've noted many times in this forum:

The average household size in this country is around 2.6 and 27% of households are single person (one person) households; when we add in two person households, we're talking about 60%+ with regional and ethnic variations.
The under-30 crowd clearly is using "personal devices" such as tablets and smart phones to access video content.
Evaluating these facts, just how many TV's can one expect will be in use at the same time in a one or two person household?

And given that the Slingbox Plays through Boxee Box & Logitech Revue and there's no reason why it couldn't do the same for the Sling enabled ViP DVR's, people in the household watching two TVs at the same time is covered with the Sling feature, while giving full "personal device" access.

While I think many features on the Hopper are interesting, right now I can record four channels simultaneously on my 722 and 612 and it's a rare moment I need any more. And that could be six channels if I could get OTA and 7 channels for those that have a 722(k) or 922. If either my 722 or 612 glitches, I can get a replacement and still record on the other one. The Hopper is a "oh crap there goes all my TV" box.

Whole home TV isn't a technology advance, others have been doing it for years. One tuner - whole transponder - four channel recording is a technology advance once it is available in a debugged, reliable box.

But in the next five years the Hopper cannot represent a good reason for Dish to abandon the ViP DVR series. And I say that meaning "*can* not." It would defy economic logic. Heck there are millions of SD DVR's still out there.

Only because an idiot is running the company would Dish stop manufacturing 722k's and 922. The problem is, I don't know about the current CEO.


----------



## P Smith

You should remember 721 and 921 (feel any reminiscent numbers ?) cut off. Perhaps we're witnesses of new :down: trend.


----------



## 356B

The 722K could go the way of the 622 and soon, supported by unavailable from Dish. 
Clearly the Hopper is modeled somewhat off the vip922. The menu is almost identical, the guide is virtually the same as the 922. The guide is quicker and it's a different color.....
It obviously has more bells and whistles (PTA, 2T and Joey) but no built in Sling which is unfortunate, PIP with Hopper but regrettably not with Joey.

Dish seems to be going "all in " on the Hopper. I've read that Dish will disallow mixing any vip's with the Hopper on customer accounts......billing reasons says Dish. Bottom line seems to be if you want *it *you go "all in" with Dish. I have no idea what tailgaters will be offered or do.


----------



## Joe Spears

Here are the spec sheets:


----------



## P Smith

Joe (Scott ?),

A couple notes to first PDF:
- "1700 DMIPs" is wrong on two counts: it's "*1500+* DMIP*S*";
because a) it's a param of Broadcom BCM7420, not the inflated by dish; b) the acronym is *D*rystone *MIPS* (originally an acronym for *M*icroprocessor without *I*nterlocked *P*ipeline *S*tages).


----------



## phrelin

P Smith said:


> You should remember 721 and 921 (feel any reminiscent numbers ?) cut off. Perhaps we're witnesses of new :down: trend.


I remember that the 721 was replaced with a 522 and a 921 with a 622 or 722. But I'm not worried about getting some letter saying they're going to replace my 722 with a Hopper anytime soon.

Except for some firmware glitches, like the recently nightly program guide one due to the marketing-driven Blockbuster menu upgrade, the ViP DVR series are reliable HD workhorses. Yes, the 622 may be getting a little long of tooth, but there's still a lot of them out there

Now if some new format issue - say an "MPEG-X" for 3-D becomes a new compression standard in five-to-ten years - then we might see replacement. But my guess is I'll be dead by then.


----------



## dmspen

OK, what's the HIC for?


----------



## butters

Hopper Internet Connector. I believe it is an add on for those folks that don't have an internet connection available at the location where the Hopper or Joey's are installed???


----------



## js0873

Does anyone know if the hopper/joey combination will still allow you to do the swap function at any of the 4 connected TVs? That is, pause action on the live stream, do a swap to watch something else, and then swap back to the paused action and un-pause it? Also, can you connect up an EHD that has recordings from an existing receiver and move them to the hopper so you don't lose them?


----------



## HoTat2

butters said:


> Hopper Internet Connector. I believe it is an add on for those folks that don't have an internet connection available at the location where the Hopper or Joey's are installed???


Seems basically the same function as DIRECTV's counterpart the "CCK" (Cinema Connection Kit"), which allows in this case the entire Hopper/Joey coax network to access the internet or ethernet home network through a single point.

IOW, its a shared MoCA to ethernet crossover bridge.


----------



## P Smith

js0873 said:


> Does anyone know if the hopper/joey combination will still allow you to do the swap function at any of the 4 connected TVs? That is, pause action on the live stream, do a swap to watch something else, and then swap back to the paused action and un-pause it? Also, can you connect up an EHD that has recordings from an existing receiver and move them to the hopper so you don't lose them?


As I saw in that demo what Vevek did show to SG, you can pause something running on one [hopper] tuner switch to other device [joey] and pick it from a list of tuner - then it will run simultaneously on both, because of using one same tuner.
EHD moving conditions are the same as for ViP922 (the XiP813 took 922 code with eXtension): [using a hub connect more then one] EHD from all ViP exclude 211/411's EHD.


----------



## HoTat2

I'm also curious as to whether the Hopper/Joey MoCA communication protocol that is used complies with the official RVU alliance so that other manufacturers may incorporate the ability to connect to the Hopper in their different products as well, or is it a strictly proprietary "RVU-like" one which only the Joeys can connect to and understand?

I mean I do see EchoStar listed as a "contributor" to the alliance, but nothing which specifically mentions Dish involved anywhere in it.


----------



## Shades228

HoTat2 said:


> I'm also curious as to whether the Hopper/Joey MoCA communication protocol that is used complies with the official RVU alliance so that other manufacturers may incorporate the ability to connect to the Hopper in their different products as well, or is it a strictly proprietary "RVU-like" one which only the Joeys can connect to and understand?
> 
> I mean I do see EchoStar listed as a "contributor" to the alliance, but nothing which specifically mentions Dish involved anywhere in it.


DISH doesn't have to be because they don't make the hardware, I'm not sure about the software, so unless they don't have Echostar do their software they wouldn't have to be listed. The companies that make the technology not necessarily the end user company is what would be listed in the alliance.


----------



## P Smith

There was mention - using IP over MoCA; perhaps e|star product Aria would tell you more (same platform and principles as 813/110 pair).


----------



## HoTat2

Shades228 said:


> DISH doesn't have to be because they don't make the hardware, I'm not sure about the software, so unless they don't have Echostar do their software they wouldn't have to be listed. The companies that make the technology not necessarily the end user company is what would be listed in the alliance.


OK, however come to think of it though, in everything Dish has said so far about the Hopper/Joey system I don't recall them ever referring to the term "RVU" when speaking of the type of communication between the Hopper and Joey.

Nothing beyond a bland mention of "MoCA" communication to a "thin client" (the XiP110 "Joey"). So maybe that implies it is a closed proprietary protocol delivering the equivalent functionality of RVU, but intended and understood only by the Joeys.


----------



## Shades228

HoTat2 said:


> OK, however come to think of it though, in everything Dish has said so far about the Hopper/Joey system I don't recall them ever referring to the term "RVU" when speaking of the type of communication between the Hopper and Joey.
> 
> Nothing beyond a bland mention of "MoCA" communication to a "thin client" (the XiP110 "Joey"). So maybe that implies it is a closed proprietary protocol delivering the equivalent functionality of RVU, but intended and understood only by the Joeys.


I don't think DISH will ever do RVU honestly because they have done everything so far to be different than DIRECTV.


----------



## Jim5506

js0873 said:


> Does anyone know if the hopper/joey combination will still allow you to do the swap function at any of the 4 connected TVs? That is, pause action on the live stream, do a swap to watch something else, and then swap back to the paused action and un-pause it? Also, can you connect up an EHD that has recordings from an existing receiver and move them to the hopper so you don't lose them?


The Swap should be available wherever the PIP is available.

Didn't I read that PIP is available on all Hoppers and Joey's?


----------



## HoTat2

Jim5506 said:


> The Swap should be available wherever the PIP is available.
> 
> Didn't I read that PIP is available on all Hoppers and Joey's?


PiP is on the Hopper, but not the Joey.


----------



## ukwes21

Does the new Hopper have a spot for the OTA antenna? I can get more locals from the town farther from me and like those better than my close locals.


----------



## HoTat2

ukwes21 said:


> Does the new Hopper have a spot for the OTA antenna? I can get more locals from the town farther from me and like those better than my close locals.


It is strongly rumored to be a USB connected OTA module which in that particular respect makes it like DIRECTV's AM21.

However Dish so far has released no official details for it.


----------



## audiomaster

butters said:


> It will but there is a $39 activation fee and a $10 monthly concessions charge. :lol:


And you will need a water connection for the icemaker!


----------



## Ray [email protected] Network

No official information has been released yet on how an OTA will be connected to the Hopper so I don't have anything pertinent that I can add. Thanks.



HoTat2 said:


> It is strongly rumored to be a USB connected OTA module which in that particular respect makes it like DIRECTV's AM21.
> 
> However Dish so far has released no official details for it.


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> It is strongly rumored to be a USB connected OTA module which in that particular respect makes it like DIRECTV's AM21.
> 
> However Dish so far has released no official details for it.


From CES talk by dish ppl - these OTA tuners are generic from a shelf, they do testing a few models from different mfgs.
That would big advantage against the DTV idea to use everything proprietary like AM-21]N].


----------



## Jhon69

P Smith said:


> From CES talk by dish ppl - these OTA tuners are generic from a shelf, they do testing a few models from different mfgs.
> That would big advantage against the DTV idea to use everything proprietary like AM-21]N].


I could get by without OTA tuners with DirecTV's HR34 with 5 tuners and the ability to record 5 at once(while watching a prerecorded program).DISH should thank their lucky stars they still have more basic channels in HD than DirecTV who has more sports and premium channels in HD now.Otherwise I would pay my EFT and Hop,Hop,out of here!.:nono2:


----------



## butters

I am not familiar with the HR34 but I read that you can only access it from 4 rooms at time and only have 3 viewing programming concurrently.  If this is true, then other than the ability to record 5 shows at once the actually connectivity and viewing options would be similar to the Hopper. Adding a 2nd Hopper (depending on cost) would give Dish the advantage.


----------



## Christopher Gould

"butters" said:


> I am not familiar with the HR34 but I read that you can only access it from 4 rooms at time and only have 3 viewing programming concurrently. If this is true, then other than the ability to record 5 shows at once the actually connectivity and viewing options would be similar to the Hopper. Adding a 2nd Hopper (depending on cost) would give Dish the advantage.


You can have main tv and 3 clients all watching same time. Of you add second hopper you could add a second hr34 too.


----------



## Paul Secic

phrelin said:


> I remember that the 721 was replaced with a 522 and a 921 with a 622 or 722. But I'm not worried about getting some letter saying they're going to replace my 722 with a Hopper anytime soon.
> 
> Except for some firmware glitches, like the recently nightly program guide one due to the marketing-driven Blockbuster menu upgrade, the ViP DVR series are reliable HD workhorses. Yes, the 622 may be getting a little long of tooth, but there's still a lot of them out there
> 
> Now if some new format issue - say an "MPEG-X" for 3-D becomes a new compression standard in five-to-ten years - then we might see replacement. But my guess is I'll be dead by then.


When will the Hopper come out? I'm just interested in the 922.


----------



## P Smith

Paul Secic said:


> When will the Hopper come out? I'm just interested in the 922.


1Q2012


----------



## Shades228

butters said:


> I am not familiar with the HR34 but I read that you can only access it from 4 rooms at time and only have 3 viewing programming concurrently. If this is true, then other than the ability to record 5 shows at once the actually connectivity and viewing options would be similar to the Hopper. Adding a 2nd Hopper (depending on cost) would give Dish the advantage.


DIRECTV would have the edge. Add another HR34 and you have 5 full tuners where with the Hopper you're wasting a tuner duplicating the local prime time option. You would have 10 tuners compared to 6.


----------



## Jhon69

Shades228 said:


> DIRECTV would have the edge. Add another HR34 and you have 5 full tuners where with the Hopper you're wasting a tuner duplicating the local prime time option. You would have 10 tuners compared to 6.


Now your only thinking of the tuners,when you consider Primetime Anytime (PTAT) for the 3 hours 8PM-11PM each Hopper can record 6 programs(while watching a prerecorded program) or you can turn off PTAT off of one of the Hoppers,so during that same time you would basically have 9 programs being recorded(while watching a prerecorded program).But if you want both to record PTAT(I don't know why you would it would be like 12 tuners.:eek2:

Now if DISH comes out with a USB Dual Tuner OTA box(which they should) there would be a probability that two Hoppers/wOTA would be able to record 11 programs during the primetime hours.:eek2:

While if you add the AM21(Dual Over The Air Tuners Box) to the HR34 the maximum recorded programs you can do with that setup is 5.

So you see it is possible for DISH to have the edge with the Hopper.


----------



## Shades228

Jhon69 said:



> Now your only thinking of the tuners,when you consider Primetime Anytime (PTAT) for the 3 hours 8PM-11PM each Hopper can record 6 programs(while watching a prerecorded program) or you can turn off PTAT off of one of the Hoppers,so during that same time you would basically have 9 programs being recorded(while watching a prerecorded program).But if you want both to record PTAT(I don't know why you would it would be like 12 tuners.:eek2:
> 
> Now if DISH comes out with a USB Dual Tuner OTA box(which they should) there would be a probability that two Hoppers/wOTA would be able to record 11 programs during the primetime hours.:eek2:
> 
> While if you add the AM21(Dual Over The Air Tuners Box) to the HR34 the maximum recorded programs you can do with that setup is 5.
> 
> So you see it is possible for DISH to have the edge with the Hopper.


There are some assumptions in there that I don't think are going to pan out like they're stated. However until it's in the field it's all speculation. I personally feel that 5 tuners to do what I want is better than 3 even with PTAT. I know this is the DISH side of the board so there is bias but overall with the fact that they have stated hoppers will only work with joeys and that PTAT is only appealing to a few (I don't know anyone who records all prime time shows every night) I feel that DISH has again limited their technology. If they had made the hopper/joey system compatible with existing equipment they wouldn't have the limitations I see. I'm nowhere near an expert on DISH installations at all but I don't know how DISH handles having say 10+ tuners setup. OTA also doesn't have an impact on me due to where I am and the crap signals we get. It's cheaper to add receivers than get the equipment needed to get OTA here.

So for instance my setup will have 2 HR34's (10 tuners) just to record programs 4 HR24 HD DVRs (8 tuners) to access the recordings, and record one time things that pop up if needed, on the HR34s. I can't see how it's possible to do this with the Hopper/Joey setup and retain the same recording ability as well as functionality without multiple Dish's.

Now to be fair the kids rooms could get away with RVU clients (removing 6 tuners) because DIRECTV hasn't released an RVU client that I'm willing to put in their rooms and I'm not willing to give up trick play in their rooms. With that said though the cost of an RVU client and a HD DVR with DIRECTV is identicle so there wouldn't be a reason to swap them out since I already have them.

So how would you get that setup done with the Hopper/Joey and what equipment would it take?


----------



## James Long

Shades228 said:


> PTAT is only appealing to a few (I don't know anyone who records all prime time shows every night)


One does not need to record all prime time shows every night to get a benefit out of PTA. The benefit begins when one wants any two overlapping shows. That happens in my household.



> I don't know how DISH handles having say 10+ tuners setup.


Currently they don't. The Hopper/Joey is their first entry into the concept of household wide tuners. Their current systems are based on single or dual satellite tuner receivers with single or dual OTA receivers built in. Their current dishes are designed to feed up to three such receivers. Using separate switches one can feed up to eight such receivers (16 satellite tuners). But no shared content (other than TV1 and TV2 on the same receiver ... technology introduced in 2003).


----------



## Jhon69

James Long said:


> One does not need to record all prime time shows every night to get a benefit out of PTA. The benefit begins when one wants any two overlapping shows. That happens in my household.
> 
> Currently they don't. The Hopper/Joey is their first entry into the concept of household wide tuners. Their current systems are based on single or dual satellite tuner receivers with single or dual OTA receivers built in. Their current dishes are designed to feed up to three such receivers. Using separate switches one can feed up to eight such receivers (16 satellite tuners). But no shared content (other than TV1 and TV2 on the same receiver ... technology introduced in 2003).


Thank you James for answering Shades 228's question.When there is that many tuners involved I get lost very easily.:eek2:


----------



## F1aReD

Will the Hopper and Joey be available by this spring? I'm looking to order Dish, but I don't want to order it and a month later it comes out free for new customers.


----------



## P Smith

see post#148


----------



## F1aReD

Is that supposed to be 10/2012? I don't get what Q means?


----------



## James Long

1Q2012 = 1st Quarter 2012. Generally, the first three months of the year is the 1st Quarter.


----------



## phrelin

Or 1Q2012="soon":








And I'm hoping that when folks here start writing about them I'll look like a cynical idiot when I say that early adopters will find themselves being Alpha Testers.


----------



## lparsons21

Since there are already some Beta testers, it would be hard for the new users to step back to alpha level.

As to the definition of 'soon' - well Dish is not alone in overusing that word, nor in how it is used. D* is quite good at it too! 

Well, that and 'up to'!!


----------



## RASCAL01

Beta testing began in Nov....and should be released with the next few months.


----------



## Brewerfan13

Please help me!!!

4 TV household....couple questions.

1. With Hopper System how separate live HD feeds can be viewed at the same time when nothing is recording on the DVR?

2. If 2 HD shows are being recorded how many live HD feeds can be viewed assuming the live feeds I want to watch are not either of the 2 live HD feeds that are being recorded?

3. How many separate HD shows that were previously recorded can be accessed and viewed simultaneously?

4. What is the maximum number of unique HD feeds can be viewed and recorded at the same time?

5. If a 5th TV were to be brought into the equation would a 2nd Hopper be necessary? If yes, would the Joeys be able to access the recorded shows from both Hoppers?

Thanks!!!


----------



## P Smith

While we have no experience with the devices, all AVAILABLE info posted from CES 2012.

If you can't find your answers there, then don't expect to see these here - only *speculations* can be posted.


----------



## BobaBird

But to summarize the thread...

1. The Hopper has 3 tuners, so you can watch 3 live feeds.
2. 3-2=1
3. With 3 Joeys added, you can watch 4 previously recorded shows...
4. ...while 3 more are being recorded
5. Yes, if you want it to have independent viewing, and yes.

With 2 Hoppers you can have up to 4 Joeys giving you 6 live feeds for viewing and/or recording, and be able to watch 6 different already recorded shows.


----------



## P Smith

VP's digest. 

[As it usually happen, your boss approaching you with: *"I know nothing, I have no time to read and search, just give these damn answers !!!"*]


----------



## Joe Spears

P Smith said:


> Joe (Scott ?)


Haha, nah I am not Scott Greczkowski. :hurah: :grin: :lol:


----------



## TomCat

dpeters11 said:


> ...I couldn't figure out how it's possible to use one tuner to get 4 networks at the same time, but in other places it sounds like it isn't recording them in the traditional sense.


Conventional _ad hoc_ digital sat delivery uses 4 slots (directly adjacent slices of the bandwidth each on a separate frequency) per transponder, typically fed _ad hoc_ by 4 separate uplinks from separate sources, which allows 4 different clients to timeshare the transponder on demand at any given time, simultaneously. Since DBS uses all of the xponder all of the time, they instead send a single MPTS (multiple program transport stream) which is one wideband carrier with the modulation holding the elemental programs from 4 sources all in the same stream. DISH leverages this by arranging the spot beams for the big 4 on the same xponder in each market.

A conventional DVR/IRD demodulates the MPTS signal and then demuxes the program signal of interest, discarding the rest. That then goes to the HDD for playback. IOW, even a conventional DVB tuner can (has the bandwidth to) see the entire transponder at once, but conventionally, only a fraction of the MPTS (a single program) is recorded.

The Hopper does not demux directly after demod, but sends the entire MPTS to the HDD. Then, at playback, it does the demux.

So there is nothing new as far as the technology goes, but moving the demux to playback is what makes PTA possible (that, along with fast CPUs and large HDDs).

This, of course, implies that it is impractical to save one show from a recording that actually holds 4 simultaneous shows since the file size is 4 times larger, and why to save a show past the 8-day expiration they have to basically do a playback/rerecord in the background from that partition to the user partition. Pretty slick implementation of conventional pro technology for consumer use, if you ask me. DirecTV will be close behind.

So no, not in the traditional sense (as far as consumer technology goes; TV stations have used this for backhaul for years). But not exactly magical, either.


----------



## HoTat2

TomCat said:


> Conventional _ad hoc_ digital sat delivery uses 4 slots (directly adjacent slices of the bandwidth each on a separate frequency) per transponder, typically fed _ad hoc_ by 4 separate uplinks from separate sources, which allows 4 different clients to timeshare the transponder on demand at any given time, simultaneously. ...


Just to note:

This part of your post describing "Conventional ad hoc digital satellite delivery" actually sounds like "Frequency Division Multiple Access" (or FDMA).

Therefore shouldn't the last portion quoted above read as;



> ... typically fed ad hoc by 4 separate uplinks from separate sources, which allows 4 different clients to _"frequency share"_ the transponder on demand at any given time?


----------



## DoyleS

Are we sure that PTAT works be recording at the shows at the Hopper and using its tuners? Or could it be that the PrimeTime shows are just downloaded to the Dish Space on the Hopper after the fact the same way that PPV and other events are downloaded which would mean that no tuners on the Hopper are used?


----------



## joegr

DoyleS said:


> Are we sure that PTAT works be recording at the shows at the Hopper and using its tuners? Or could it be that the PrimeTime shows are just downloaded to the Dish Space on the Hopper after the fact the same way that PPV and other events are downloaded which would mean that no tuners on the Hopper are used?


PPV and "other event" (except for streaming) do in fact use a tuner to download from the satellite. It happens while the receiver is in standby and not being actively watched. These can be downloaded anytime, so it just waits for you to put it on standby (or the inactivity timeout). In the case of primetime, it has to happen at a specific time, so you will lose a turner if you are watching or recording at the same time.


----------



## DoyleS

Doesn't it leave the possibility for it to be downloaded on a non-live situation? Shortly after PrimeTime, most people would have their boxes in standby which would then allow for a mass download of the primetime shows. I don't know, just trying to understand some of the possibilities prior to these boxes actually getting in some of our hands.


----------



## HoTat2

DoyleS said:


> ... Doesn't it leave the possibility for it to be downloaded on a non-live situation?


No, as far as known and been demonstrated, PTAT records via a single tuner the four major network telecasts concurrently during the local prime time viewing hours of 8PM-11PM ± any user selectable over or under-run time padding adjustments, to a reserved portion of the HDD on the Hopper.


----------



## archer75

Anyone care to hazard a guess as to how much an existing subscriber would have to pay for a hopper? My guess is $200.


----------



## P Smith

My guess is $99.


----------



## DoyleS

Seems to me the question is the price of the Hopper and then the price and monthly charge on each of the Joey's. Those of us with 3 or 4 receivers would probably be looking at replacing most or all of them.


----------



## jeffdb27

HoTat2 said:


> Three tuners per Hopper, with the XiP Duo Node allowing two Hoppers max. per install for a combined six tuners.
> 
> Additional tuners to the Hopper from an optional OTA module, if it exist, has not yet been determined.


How will having two Hoppers work? Will they communicate with each other? Will Joeys be tied to a particular Hopper, or will they all have access to all six tuners and both Hopper's DVR programs?

I'm sure it will be just speculation at this point, but maybe someone knows something?

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## tampa8

1. It has been demonstrated it records all four on one tuner not downloads it.
2. According to the ces video all joeys see all tuners on both hoppers. That's the whole idea of less tuners each.


----------



## HoTat2

tampa8 said:


> ...
> 2. According to the ces video all joeys see all tuners on both hoppers. That's the whole idea of less tuners each.


Correct;

Apparently the "XiP Duo Node" device which can feed two Hoppers in parallel has an internal MoCA crossover bridge which allows them or their attached Joeys to communicate with the other.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=64889&d=1304659604


----------



## archer75

Can you setup primetime anytime to autosave certain shows so they don't get deleted after 8 days?


----------



## eichenberg

archer75 said:


> Can you setup primetime anytime to autosave certain shows so they don't get deleted after 8 days?


I have read somewhere in one of the threads that you would be able to select which program(s) you want and save them so they do not get deleted after the 8 days.


----------



## archer75

eichenberg said:


> I have read somewhere in one of the threads that you would be able to select which program(s) you want and save them so they do not get deleted after the 8 days.


Yes, you can save them. But I want to have it automatically save select shows for me so I don't have to routinely manage that list. I don't want to forget to save something and then lose it after 8 days.

The bulk of what we watch is during prime time however we may not watch shows till weeks later.

Here's a video of it in action:


----------



## n0qcu

Automatic saving will be a future enhancement.


----------



## MCHuf

n0qcu said:


> Automatic saving will be a future enhancement.


So in other words, no it won't.


----------



## Jhon69

MCHuf said:


> So in other words, no it won't.


No in other words....SOON!.


----------



## elgibby

Sounds promising! I'd be coming to Dish and Hopper/Joey from a cable/TiVo setup. Wondering if there's any info on offloading programs to a computer, like with the TiVo.

I see in buttons on the Main Menu screen (I can't post urls yet) for "home media" and "my media transfer." 

Could one of them be DNLA streaming and the other moving content off the Hopper?


----------



## P Smith

For sure - no offloading programs to PC; it's red color for the 'bull'.


----------



## RasputinAXP

For the 922 "My Media Transfer" is how you get things from internal storage to external HDD. Home Media is the built in DLNA client.


----------



## scorpion43

i am no longer under contract with dish network.but when the Hopper and Joey's come out and are available to current customers i will gladly sign another 2 year contract to get them installed in my home
sounds like an awesome technology 
and i think directv knows that to :lol:


----------



## elgibby

P Smith said:


> For sure - no offloading programs to PC; it's red color for the 'bull'.


Too bad. That's probably a deal breaker for me, as I edit out ads and transfer programs to my tablet for viewing during work breaks.

Thanks for the response.


----------



## vwhizbang

I have read all the post in this forum and would like to state what appears obvious. Everybody always wants more and no product is going to address all needs and wishes.

To me the big deal here is that the Hopper is able deliver HD over coax at a reasonable price. Everything I saw in the past was expensive and in most cases only available to one remote TV without a daisy chain arrangement which most home distribution systems won't support. 

The second big advantage appears to be the ability to tune up to 4 HD TVs to different channels. Not a big deal to me, but a definite upgrade for families.

It appears at this point that the 6 channel recording is only available if you record the 4 major networks on one tuner and use the other 2 tuners for everything else, I guess time will tell what the details are on this point. This is an ok arrangement if you watch a lot of Network TV, which I don't, maybe 4 hours a week at the most. So then you have 3 tuners which matches what I have now with my 722k and 612, except that I can't stream from both receivers to my 3 TVs and can not stream HD at all. So we are back to the major advantage being home HD distribution from one receiver. And to me that is a pretty big deal because, as it is I can only get HD TV in multiple rooms by using multiple receivers and in some cases multiple dishes.

Bottom line is the Hopper won't do everything but what it will do was not possible before and some of what was possible was not very elegant.

I will get a new roll of black electrical tape to solve the stupid logo problem. It worked well on the stupid blue backlit HDTV logos on the current line of receivers.


----------



## P Smith

vwhizbang said:


> I have read all the post in this forum and would like to state what appears obvious. Everybody always wants more and no product is going to address all needs and wishes.
> 
> To me the big deal here is that the Hopper is able deliver HD over coax at a reasonable price. Everything I saw in the past was expensive and in most cases only available to one remote TV without a daisy chain arrangement which most home distribution systems won't support.
> 
> The second big advantage appears to be the ability to tune up to 4 HD TVs to different channels. Not a big deal to me, but a definite upgrade for families.
> 
> It appears at this point that the 6 channel recording is only available if you record the 4 major networks on one tuner and use the other 2 tuners for everything else, I guess time will tell what the details are on this point. This is an ok arrangement if you watch a lot of Network TV, which I don't, maybe 4 hours a week at the most. So then you have 3 tuners which matches what I have now with my 722k and 612, except that I can't stream from both receivers to my 3 TVs. So we are back to the major advantage being home HD distribution from one receiver. And to me that is a pretty big deal because, as it is I can only get HD TV in multiple rooms by using multiple receivers and in some cases multiple dishes.
> 
> Bottom line is the Hopper won't do everything but what it will do was not possible before and some of what was possible was not very elegant.
> 
> I will get a new roll of black electrical tape to solve the stupid logo problem. It worked well on the stupid blue backlit HDTV logos on the current line of receivers.


I would say: dish PR should hire you or just pay for the post.


----------



## vwhizbang

And one more thing, well actually two. The Hopper has an eSata port which will most likely support a EHD. Any chance it will be used to allow DVD burning? Nope not a chance. I also see a USB port on the Joey. Now what could that be used for?


----------



## P Smith

No use for both now. "For future enhancements".


----------



## vwhizbang

Thanks P Smith,

Bored today with no football? NASCAR up next.


----------



## BobaBird

elgibby said:


> Too bad. That's probably a deal breaker for me, as I edit out ads and transfer programs to my tablet for viewing during work breaks.


We may soon be able to load programs to iPad and Android tablets, but don't expec to be able to pre-purge commercials. See the Sling Booth portion of http://www.dishuser.org/ces2012.php.


vwhizbang said:


> The second big advantage appears to be the ability to tune up to 4 HD TVs to different channels. Not a big deal to me, but a definite upgrade for families.


While 4 TVs can view HD programming, only 3 tuners are available, and any of those could be recording. When a TV can't get a tuner, it can watch what one of the others is watching, or watch something already recorded.



> So then you have 3 tuners which matches what I have now with my 722k and 612, ...


Your current receivers have 4 tuners, with the 612 adding an OTA tuner and the 722k optionally having 2 more for OTA channels both major and minor. Agreed on the limitations of outputs and sharing.


----------



## vwhizbang

BobaBird said:


> While 4 TVs can view HD programming, only 3 tuners are available, and any of those could be recording. When a TV can't get a tuner, it can watch what one of the others is watching, or watch something already recorded.


So here is a question. I heard it stated that you can watch Prime Time programming while it is recording. Does this use a separate tuner or the Tuner that is recording the Prime Time lineup? If it uses the same tuner then in theory 4 TVs could be watching different Prime Time Channels while the other 2 tuners were recording something else. I don't think I could make a definitive statement about this yet but it seems possible from what I have heard so far.


----------



## BobaBird

The person I talked to said PTAT can't be tuned directly, but you can go to the DVR listings and select a show to start over as it's being recorded, which is essentially "live."

Scott reported that PTAT can be watched live, and I know he has good sources. I'm not sure how that would work though (getting over my head but will think out loud anyway), if each viewing device/decoder (Hopper or Joey) is accessing the same tuner that is recording PTAT, is the Hopper able to extract a different channels from the same stream using the same tuner to send live to the decoders?

Maybe the answer lies in another inconsistency we got. I was told only the 4 channels get recorded, as indicated by the "PT" timer flags on the EPG. Scott has said several times the entire transponder is recorded. I find both answers entirely plausible, with both leaving open the possibility of adding other locals on the same TP should Dish choose to include them in PTAT.


----------



## n-spring

Since PTAT records the entire transponder in order to capture the four major networks, does it record distant networks in order to achieve this? If so, how are the local broadcast stations letting them get away with this, or do they not care?


----------



## n0qcu

PTA records *YOUR* local *HD network channels* from the spotbeam for your DMA.


----------



## P Smith

n0qcu said:


> PTA records *YOUR* local *HD network channels* from the spotbeam for your DMA.


Plus nobody knows what else from the mux.


----------



## Lt Disher

n-spring said:


> Since PTAT records the entire transponder in order to capture the four major networks, does it record distant networks in order to achieve this? If so, how are the local broadcast stations letting them get away with this, or do they not care?


I'n not sure how the local stations are with this, but one key point is that the customer himself has to turn the PTAT on. It is not an automatic thing that DISH is doing. The customer only has to set the switch once, but it does require action on the part of the user. I think that this action makes it similar to recording any other show, and this has been accepted and is legal.


----------



## James Long

Lt Disher said:


> I'n not sure how the local stations are with this, but one key point is that the customer himself has to turn the PTAT on.


The key is it isn't distants. DISH is allowed by law to deliver channels into their own markets (with permission of the locals). In markets that are "short" a network or more DISH is allowed by law to deliver distants of the missing network (short meaning no network affiliate, not just an uncooperative one).

And the PTA feature records the big four feeds of the market regardless of if they are HD or not. In markets where there is no HD of a network a SD will be part of PTA.


----------



## Lt Disher

James Long said:


> The key is it isn't distants. DISH is allowed by law to deliver channels into their own markets (with permission of the locals). In markets that are "short" a network or more DISH is allowed by law to deliver distants of the missing network (short meaning no network affiliate, not just an uncooperative one).
> 
> And the PTA feature records the big four feeds of the market regardless of if they are HD or not. In markets where there is no HD of a network a SD will be part of PTA.


You may be absolutely correct, but originally and at the CES the PTAT feature was only for markets that had HD locals. In some cases the SD is on another transponder anyway and PTAT relies on having all four networks on the same transponder.


----------



## gtal98

Yeah, everything I've seen has said PTA works on HD locals _only._ And as Lt Disher said, it works off being able to dump the whole transponder at once. In some SD only local markets not all locals are on the same transponder. I even know of one where they're not even on the same satellite (split between 119 and 110).


----------



## James Long

Lt Disher said:


> You may be absolutely correct, but originally and at the CES the PTAT feature was only for markets that had HD locals. In some cases the SD is on another transponder anyway and PTAT relies on having all four networks on the same transponder.


Hmmm ... I thought I saw a SD local with the PTA flag. In any case, there are plenty of transponders with HD and SD on the same transponder. If an affiliate in a market was not in HD (very rare for a big four) DISH could put them on the same transponder as the HD for the sake of PTA.

Glancing through the list I noticed several HD affiliates that do not have the PTA flag, even though they are on the same transponder as the other big four channels in that market. I suppose DISH will do an audit before they release the receiver.

The markets where DISH does not offer HD locals would not be a problem. One can record "an entire transponder" of SD just as easily as "an entire transponder" of HD. If a market is split just do some shifting, like they did with the HD locals, to get the big four together. It would be a shame if PTA was withheld from them until they got HD locals.


----------



## jeffdb27

James Long said:


> Hmmm ... I thought I saw a SD local with the PTA flag. ...
> 
> Glancing through the list I noticed several HD affiliates that do not have the PTA flag ...


Where is this list with the PTA flags? Can anyone access it?

Thanks.


----------



## P Smith

In a stream - check SDT on PID_0x0011 at each transponder.


----------



## jeffdb27

P Smith said:


> In a stream - check SDT on PID_0x0011 at each transponder.


Oh, so that is something beyond the average user with a standard receiver?


----------



## P Smith

It's not beyond a user with cheap DVB-S card, Win PC and free TSReaderLite.


----------



## James Long

And if one looks at the transponder lists on my website ( http://uplink.jameslong.name/ ) they can see the data decoded.

I have not added the PTA flag to the local channel list.


----------



## DavidMi

Your site is down...

Gives the following error...

This is the default H-Sphere server page. From here you are able to access the following services:
Web Utilities:
WebShell4—file manager

If this page is not what you wanted to get, most probably, one of the one of the following situations occured:

Domain name refers to H-Sphere logical server, e.g., web.service-domain.com
Third-level domain name does not exist. Maybe, you typed it incorrectly, e.g., valeed-domain .example.com instead of valid-domain.example.com
Domain incorrectly points to this H-Sphere server.


----------



## James Long

Whoops ... not my site! Try http://uplink.jameslong.name/


----------



## P Smith

It's viglink screw it.  See that thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=201419


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> It's viglink screw it.  See that thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=201419


No, it was NOT viglink. I accidentally typed my site as a .com instead of a .name .


----------



## P Smith

Yes, it IS viglink - here is my try right now:



> <Error>
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> AccessDenied
> 
> <Message>Access Denied</Message><RequestId>974FF6D68E5B2780</RequestId><HostId>3wEdfNm3morGCv6BTdRT0KiR8TT9kkXX9VMA1LDMWn2kp43821fBANkn6haEeLV0</HostId></Error>


----------



## Shades228

The link in post 211 resolved fine for me when I just tested it.


----------



## DavidMi

James Long said:


> Whoops ... not my site! Try http://uplink.jameslong.name/


That works, thanks!


----------



## VDP07

Official Hopper/Joey consumer release date, March 15th.


----------



## VDP07

Existing customer's will pay $100-$200 for a Hopper and $0-$100 for each joey up to 3 depending on which plan they fall under. Plan A and B customers = $100 Hopper and $0 Joeys. Plan C customers = $200 Hopper and $100 Joeys


----------



## ChAoTiCpInOy

"VDP07" said:


> Existing customer's will pay $100-$200 for a Hopper and $0-$100 for each joey up to 3 depending on which plan they fall under. Plan A and B customers = $100 Hopper and $0 Joeys. Plan C customers = $200 Hopper and $100 Joeys


How do you know which one you'd fall under?


----------



## TomCat

HoTat2 said:


> Just to note:
> 
> This part of your post describing "Conventional ad hoc digital satellite delivery" actually sounds like "Frequency Division Multiple Access" (or FDMA).
> 
> Therefore shouldn't the last portion quoted above read as;


It's both. Each of the four slots can be leased out for time segments as short as 5 minutes to individual customers. That's time division multiplexing, per slot. The slots themselves share 4 narrower slices of the wider transponder, each slice dedicated to a single slot. From the point of view of the transponder, that's frequency division multiplexing.

Sorry for any confusion. The point is that since the DBS company owns or leases the entire transponder, they can remotely reconfigure it to have one wide carrier centered on a single frequency rather than 4 narrower carriers adjacent to each other, and that is received by a single wide-band tuner, whereupon the 4 separate signals are separated out (demultiplexed) at eventual playback, or separated at reception for a conventional DVR.

So wideband single carrier (containing multiple programs in a single stream) vs narrow multiple carriers (with a single program in each) is the difference between how DBS sat and conventional sat works (with DBS usually having more transmit power to illuminate the smaller reflector), but the only real difference between a "Hopper"-style IRD/DVR and a conventional IRD/DVR is that the Hopper demuxes at playback but records all of the programs at once, while the garden-variety DVR demuxes at record to minimize the amount of HDD space needed for a single program.


----------



## jeffdb27

TomCat said:


> but the only real difference between a "Hopper"-style IRD/DVR and a conventional IRD/DVR is that the Hopper demuxes at playback but records all of the programs at once, while the garden-variety DVR demuxes at record to minimize the amount of HDD space needed for a single program.


So will the picture quality / file size be the same when shows are extracted out of the PTAT recording? I mean, are they sacrificing quality to do this or is it just a different delivery method of the same eventual stream?

Thanks.


----------



## VDP07

ChAoTiCpInOy said:


> How do you know which one you'd fall under?


Contact Dish or a Dish retailer and they will let you know. The overwhelming majority of my customers fall in the A or B category. YMMV.


----------



## TomCat

Other than them moving your big 4 channels to the same transponder (and only if necessary) nothing changes on the transmit end, so no change is made to the bit rate and quality. The tuner is already wide enough to accept the combined bit rate of the entire stream, and your HDD can already handle a stream that big as well.

The difference is in where the signals are separated out, either at record or at playback. The demux stage just separates the signals, and does not compromise bit rate or quality either.

But, for instance, if you are only interested in keeping _Alcatraz_ out of the four programs recorded at the time that airs, the recorded file still holds all 4 and will take up 4 times the space on the PTAT partition (but 8 days is about 500 GB, so there is room).

If you want to keep the program longer, the DVR has to stream the entire file in the background to the demux which separates out the program you want, ignores the rest, and copies that part of the file into a separate location on the user partition, where it takes up the same amount of room it would take if you had originally recorded it on a conventional DVR; and again, this does not compromise quality either.


----------



## P Smith

jeffdb27 said:



> So will the picture quality / file size be the same when shows are extracted out of the PTAT recording? I mean, are they sacrificing quality to do this or is it just a different delivery method of the same eventual stream?
> 
> Thanks.


Put it simple - the Hopper 2000 will record whole ( partial - only 'big four' PIDs - no one know for now) mux of programs as is and later will play one particular show per your/Joye request.

How it's done by FW ? You can see posted speculations, it wasn't technical how-to.


----------



## jeffdb27

TomCat said:


> Other than them moving your big 4 channels to the same transponder (and only if necessary) nothing changes on the transmit end, so no change is made to the bit rate and quality. The tuner is already wide enough to accept the combined bit rate of the entire stream, and your HDD can already handle a stream that big as well.
> 
> The difference is in where the signals are separated out, either at record or at playback. The demux stage just separates the signals, and does not compromise bit rate or quality either.
> 
> But, for instance, if you are only interested in keeping _Alcatraz_ out of the four programs recorded at the time that airs, the recorded file still holds all 4 and will take up 4 times the space on the PTAT partition (but 8 days is about 500 GB, so there is room).
> 
> If you want to keep the program longer, the DVR has to stream the entire file in the background to the demux which separates out the program you want, ignores the rest, and copies that part of the file into a separate location on the user partition, where it takes up the same amount of room it would take if you had originally recorded it on a conventional DVR; and again, this does not compromise quality either.


Awesome and thanks. That's kind of what I figured.

Is the eight-day PTAT "buffer" configurable? Can I, for example, say I just want to keep everything for three days? Or maybe its Friday, and I want to delete just the previous Tuesday's block early, possible?

Thanks again.


----------



## jeffdb27

VDP07 said:


> Existing customer's will pay $100-$200 for a Hopper and $0-$100 for each joey up to 3 depending on which plan they fall under. Plan A and B customers = $100 Hopper and $0 Joeys. Plan C customers = $200 Hopper and $100 Joeys


I've always owned all of my DISH receivers. I'll probably have to bite the bullet and lease these when they come out.

1. Will it be possible to purchase the Hoppers and Joeys outright? I know this problaby doesn't make sense financially, but for the sake of arguement, can it be done?

2 Will it be possible to do a do-it-yourself install? I've never needed an installer's help before, and can't see why I would now.

Thanks.


----------



## P Smith

If you will pay MSRP $500 for hopper and who knows for each joye you could install by yourself; other way - no self install.

PTA could be On or OFF. Not possible to customize for now. Hard coded to 8 days.


----------



## TomCat

BobaBird said:


> ...if each viewing device/decoder (Hopper or Joey) is accessing the same tuner that is recording PTAT, is the Hopper able to extract a different channels from the same stream using the same tuner to send live to the decoders?...


Playback paths never, on any DVR or STB, access the tuners directly. The tuner has one job, which is to accept the L-band carrier it is tuned to, and pass that signal on to the demod, which converts the signal to baseband (there may also be an IF stage). From there it goes to demux, and from there to the HDD or playout path (HDD then demux for Hopper).

So whether a DVR can pass multiple programs to multiple playout paths at the same time is based entirely on how sophisticated the demux is and how it is programmed. Theoretically, individual streams can be routed to individual paths, but of course in this case only if they programmed it that way. Since the Hopper does not demux at receive, but at playback, it is unlikely that it can demux the signals for live viewing also.

Think of it this way; if the demux could output separate paths for the 4 programs and was early in the chain like a conventional DVR instead of later in the chain at playback, there is no reason why they could not each be recorded to the HDD separately. It appears that they are not, so that does not bode well for the opportunity to feed these signals live to separate client boxes. Since you can simply start playback and watch "virtually" live, it really does not matter.


----------



## TomCat

jeffdb27 said:


> I've always owned all of my DISH receivers. I'll probably have to bite the bullet and lease these when they come out.
> 
> 1. Will it be possible to purchase the Hoppers and Joeys outright? I know this problaby doesn't make sense financially, but for the sake of arguement, can it be done?
> 
> 2 Will it be possible to do a do-it-yourself install? I've never needed an installer's help before, and can't see why I would now.
> 
> Thanks.


Since the only real technical change is in how the DVR works internally, there is no technical hurdle making installation any more difficult. You could swap them easily. But there is a paradigm shift in how folks would interface with the new DVRs, so there may be some customer training in order. Limiting them to pro installs gives them the platform to accomplish this training at the same time, and so my best guess would-be that this is how they will do that.


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## James Long

All current DISH DVRs play back from a live buffer - it may say "live" when one catches up to the end of the buffer but it isn't as live as the signal on a non-DVR, which is not written to a hard drive before being read from the hard drive and displayed.

The process of recording TV, whether scheduled events or whatever channels are selected at the moment by the user (or were last selected), writes data somewhere on the hard drive. The process of watching TV is pulling data from the hard drive. It doesn't matter if that data was written a second ago or years ago, the viewing process doesn't change.

Every receiver is designed with tuners that are controlled by software. The tuner presents one transponder's worth of data to the receiver where multiple streams of data are pulled out to provide audio and video streams as well as encryption information, EPG and a lot of control data. On a traditional DVR the selected audio and video streams are spooled to the hard drive for later viewing (one second later or years later, all viewing on a DVR is later). On a non-DVR the audio and video streams are not spooled to a hard drive.

DISH receivers with "two satellite tuners" are designed where the receiver can point one tuner at one transponder and a second tuner at the same transponder or any other transponder available on the switch. PTA receivers are designed with a third tuner that can be pointed at the same transponder as either (or both) of the first two tuners or (during prime time with PTA active) the third tuner points at the transponder where that market's local stations reside.

On a traditional DVR when I record my NBC affiliate and CBS affiliate at the same time I am using both "tuners", even though both affiliates are on the same transponder.


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## P Smith

> *All current DISH DVRs play back from a live buffer*


I would say - 'could', but normally signal to TV(s) coming directly from video/audio decompression engines inside of 'CPU' if you are not using DVR keys (pause, etc).
Remember: dish (not DTV) DVRs can works OK without a drive.


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## DoyleS

So, how do the OTA tuners interface with the Hopper? Are they mounted internally, thus providing an additional F connector for the OTA antenna? I may have missed this in the threads. From the pictures, there is only one F connector that connects to the Distribution link and this must be a bi-directional coax connection for SAT signals coming into the Hopper and going back out as MOCA to the Joeys.


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## James Long

DoyleS said:


> So, how do the OTA tuners interface with the Hopper?


I don't recall there being provision for any. Locals would be available via satellite and one would simply miss out on any uncarried subchannels and neighboring market stations that one can occasionally get via an OTA antenna.


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## P Smith

DoyleS said:


> *So, how do the OTA tuners interface with the Hopper?* Are they mounted internally, thus providing an additional F connector for the OTA antenna? I may have missed this in the threads. From the pictures, there is only one F connector that connects to the Distribution link and this must be a bi-directional coax connection for SAT signals coming into the Hopper and going back out as MOCA to the Joeys.


Via USB.


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## Grandude

P Smith said:


> Via USB.


We're hoping that is true. I haven't looked, are there any USB OTA tuners on the market, or in development?


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## TBoneit

jeffdb27 said:


> Awesome and thanks. That's kind of what I figured.
> 
> Is the eight-day PTAT "buffer" configurable? Can I, for example, say I just want to keep everything for three days? Or maybe its Friday, and I want to delete just the previous Tuesday's block early, possible?
> 
> Thanks again.


There would be no benefit in doing what you want to do as far as i can see.

The PTAT storage area is no accessible to the user. Only Dish can put things there.

If you don't use PTAT the amount you can record in the user area will stay the same.


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## P Smith

Grandude said:


> We're hoping that is true. I haven't looked, are there any USB OTA tuners on the market, or in development?


Funny... these USB OTA stick/small boxes selling everywhere ...


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## Stewart Vernon

Grandude said:


> We're hoping that is true. I haven't looked, are there any USB OTA tuners on the market, or in development?


I've seen several models of USB tuners... the question, though, is which one Dish will support. They famously only support one specific WiFi USB adapter... so odds are they will probably only support one specific OTA tuner USB adapter as well.


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## P Smith

I think it will be Sling Rose USB stick. :eek2: Nay, ti's more likely Sling device.

Is someone heard anything about the thing?!


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## kstevens

This may be answered somewhere but I couldn't find it. How doe the Hopper and Joey connect? Will they need to run new lines from room to room or are they wireless?

Thanks,

Ken


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## TomCat

P Smith said:


> I would say - 'could', but normally signal to TV(s) coming directly from video/audio decompression engines inside of 'CPU' if you are not using DVR keys (pause, etc).
> Remember: dish (not DTV) DVRs can works OK without a drive.


"P" makes a point. For DTV DVRs, the decoded signal bypasses the HDD directly after a channel change and is routed straight to the output channel (the signal actually goes to both, but the user sees it live). This is a clever way of shortening channel acquisition time, which became somewhat longer once MPEG4 began to be used (it eliminates the write/read delay of the buffer). Only when you use trick play features does the signal route through the HDD, and the switch is seamless.

This is such a good idea I would have assumed that DISH was doing it too. Are they not?


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## James Long

kstevens said:


> This may be answered somewhere but I couldn't find it. How doe the Hopper and Joey connect? Will they need to run new lines from room to room or are they wireless?


Hoppers and Joeys are connected together via coax cables. Each home will have a central hub supporting one or two hoppers. Coax cables run from that hub to the Hoppers and Joeys with possible splitters on the feed allowing one feed from the hub to serve one Hopper and one Joey or two Joeys.

Whether you need to run new lines depends on how your home is wired. Traditional DISH home wiring is done with "home run" cables from a central location (a dish or switch connected to the dish) to each receiver. Hopper/Joey wiring is basically the same. If one is using the TV 2 output of a current DISH receiver one's current wiring may be "home" to the receiver and then a distribution cable to "TV2" that doesn't go back home. This topology can also be maintained with Hopper/Joey wiring.


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## smasters

I have seen references to installing 2 Hoppers with up to 4 Joeys. This would be ideal for me since I have 6 TV's that I'd love to hook up to Dish. Does anyone know if this configuration will be available from day 1 or how much the charge will be for the 2nd Hopper?


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## wtrjock

We have many recordings on an external drive for our VIP722. I see references to using external drives on the Hopper, but it is unclear if the Hopper can play the recordings from the VIP722. Can anyone confirm this? Could e a deal breaker for me.


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## Daniel

wtrjock said:


> We have many recordings on an external drive for our VIP722. I see references to using external drives on the Hopper, but it is unclear if the Hopper can play the recordings from the VIP722. Can anyone confirm this? Could e a deal breaker for me.


Yes for all but the 211.


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## scottchez

I just do not understand why anyone would switch to the Dish Hopper knowing they will be missing many local channels. Some how I need to make this a Priority for Dish. Sources say the USB Over the Air Tuner will not be out till Summer or September.

Maybe once the Hopper is available. I will call in to order one and almost sign up and then get to the part where you give them your VISA Card and say, oh wait do you have ALL the local channels?

you do not have the CW, PBS Nebraska, and PBS Iowa in HD?

you do not have PBS Kids and World? (there sub channels)

you do not have the local Weather channel (a sub channel)

you do not have METV, Live Well, and MyTV (more sub channels).

you do not get the nearby DMA's CBS and ABC and there sub channels.

Cable and DireCTV (with there OTA) both have that all these local channels (you get these with DirecTV not cable)

I will than say, sorry Guess I need to cancel the order. Maybe then they will make it a priority and hire more contractor programers and QA testers to get it added this May?

OTA this summer could mean September. Sounds there priority is Two Hoppers working together and the Facebook, Pandora Music apps, not the Over the Air Tuner (OTA).

What if others called in, emailed, or I.M.ed there concern about lack of locals once the Hopper is release?


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## Stewart Vernon

I agree... it would be a mistake to release this as a top-of-the-line super-duper thing and not have OTA support until the summer or later.

I could be wrong, but didn't DirecTV just make a similar mistake a couple of years back by releasing a receiver model without OTA support and then come to regret doing so?

I know many customers don't care about OTA... but for those that do, and especially the channels Dish doesn't carry and may never carry... it would be a deal-breaker.


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## James Long

There is certainly a hole that only OTA can fill, but with the last couple of receivers released requiring add on modules to get OTA DISH has a fairly good idea of how many advanced viewers have added OTA.

I hope they release a module "soon" ... and that when released it is 100% bug free. (A boy can dream.)


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## P Smith

James Long said:


> ...
> 
> I hope they *release a module* "soon" ... and that when released it is 100% bug free. (A boy can dream.)


A voice of Yoda: "They will not." 
They will release FW with drivers for OTA [ATSC tuner] USB sticks from shelves.


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## chriscpmtmp

Does anyone know if the Hopper will need a 3rd coax from the dish to the Hopper? It seems like we get 2 tuners running from one coax on a 622, so 6 tuners would need 3 cables?

I think this setup will be cool. I hope its not buggy.


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## James Long

chriscpmtmp said:


> Does anyone know if the Hopper will need a 3rd coax from the dish to the Hopper? It seems like we get 2 tuners running from one coax on a 622, so 6 tuners would need 3 cables?
> 
> I think this setup will be cool. I hope its not buggy.


The Hopper needs one cable from the special "node" connected to the dish or a DPP switch. Each Joey also needs one cable from the node, although there are alternative wiring that allow that cable to be a split off of the cable feeding the Hopper or a cable feeding another Joey.

The Hopper coax is stacked differently, with three satellite polarities (one for each of the three tuners in the Hopper) plus MoCa sending the data on to the Joeys. (DPP used for 622s and DP used for single tuner receivers stack two polarities.)


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## eddwall

James Long is correct on the wiring from the node to the Hopper and the node to the Joey. Now from the dish/LNB to the node you will need two RG-6 cables if you have one Hopper and if you have two Hoppers you will need three RG-6 cables to the node. Also from the node to the Hoppers must be RG-6 cables. From the node to the Joeys can be either RG-6 or RG-59 cables. Hope this helps!


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## P Smith

chriscpmtmp said:


> Does anyone know if the Hopper will need a 3rd coax from the dish to the Hopper? It seems like we get 2 tuners running from one coax on a 622, so 6 tuners would need 3 cables?
> 
> I think this setup will be cool. I hope its not buggy.


Here is diagram http://www.dishuser.org/hopper.php


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## XXXCOXXX

Hopper software download/check switch/activation has been challenging to say the least. Actual install of node and joeys is cake, you can use rg59 and splitters in the joey lines or a tap to run a joey off of a main hopper rg6 line. They are saying it's crucial to use 3ghz rg6 to the hopper as the new DPX is supposed to use frequencies all the way up to 3ghz rather than 2.15 or 2.25ghz for DPP


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## P Smith

Yes, we saw that in Training materials sheets.


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## chriscpmtmp

Thanks for the link. One of the coax feeds to one of my 622s stopped passing the sat signal a while ago, so I'm trying to see if this will work. That wire does pass the antenna signal though - go figure.

So if I have this right, I can put one hopper where one 622 is, then one Joey where the other 622 is. Then I only need one coax between them. That gets me 3 shows at once, viewable in both places. That seems doable. Then I can keep my setup for sharing one set of component signal on 2 HDTVs.

We end up recording a bunch of the same shows on the two 622s, so this will all be together. I'll keep my fingers crossed on reliability. That old 9-something nightmare still sticks with me.



James Long said:


> The Hopper needs one cable from the special "node" connected to the dish or a DPP switch. Each Joey also needs one cable from the node, although there are alternative wiring that allow that cable to be a split off of the cable feeding the Hopper or a cable feeding another Joey.
> 
> The Hopper coax is stacked differently, with three satellite polarities (one for each of the three tuners in the Hopper) plus MoCa sending the data on to the Joeys. (DPP used for 622s and DP used for single tuner receivers stack two polarities.)


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## P Smith

Last minute production versions just released to spooling: S2.03 and S2.55

So, you first [happy] users will report it here in two days .


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## n-spring

Is the official availability date of tomorrow, 3/15, holding up?


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## VDP07

n-spring said:


> Is the official availability date of tomorrow, 3/15, holding up?


Yep!


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## GOMD

I don't know how much water this holds, but i just finished a chat with dish online where i was informed only 1 Hopper would be possible per account. I told the rep I was interested in 2 Hoppers, and he said that is not allowed. He offered up the fact that 6 tv's can use 1 hopper and that was all. I really hope he is wrong!


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## P Smith

That would hold a water, 1xH and 5xJ, only difference is: one thing is said before - max 4J linked to one H and only three could used simultaneously. Well see tomorrow ...


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## jeffdb27

GOMD said:


> I don't know how much water this holds, but i just finished a chat with dish online where i was informed only 1 Hopper would be possible per account. I told the rep I was interested in 2 Hoppers, and he said that is not allowed. He offered up the fact that 6 tv's can use 1 hopper and that was all. I really hope he is wrong!


I would bet this would be a temporary restriction. Don't they have a Duo Node specifically to hook up two Hoppers? Maybe they have a limited supply and want to get one per account first. Or maybe the software isn't written to support the Duo Node. Hmm. Dish wouldn't release software that wasn't done, would they?

Jeff


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## jeffdb27

P Smith said:


> That would hold a water, 1xH and 5xJ, only difference is: one thing is said before - max 4J linked to one H and only three could used simultaneously. Well see tomorrow ...


You could only watch three live programs at once, but couldn't additional Joeys watch DVR'd programs or possibly ON Demand stuff?


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## James Long

GOMD said:


> I don't know how much water this holds, but i just finished a chat with dish online where i was informed only 1 Hopper would be possible per account. I told the rep I was interested in 2 Hoppers, and he said that is not allowed. He offered up the fact that 6 tv's can use 1 hopper and that was all. I really hope he is wrong!


There are errors in what the rep told you. But that isn't surprising on a new product that they have not actually been able to sell.

Wait until tomorrow ... then call and see what the rep's system will actually allow him to enter as an order (and hope that the system is programmed correctly).


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## James Long

jeffdb27 said:


> I would bet this would be a temporary restriction. Don't they have a Duo Node specifically to hook up two Hoppers? Maybe they have a limited supply and want to get one per account first.


Which sounds like DISH ... installing single nodes then paying to replace them with duo nodes later? It would be better to install duo notes up front.


jeffdb27 said:


> Or maybe the software isn't written to support the Duo Node. Hmm. Dish wouldn't release software that wasn't done, would they?


Never. :rolling:


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## BobaBird

Dual Hopper integration is a future feature.

I've put together a fairly comprehensive explanation of PrimeTime Anytime for the EKB.


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## P Smith

Using PTA acronym is looks more logical then PTAT - is it came from the provider ?


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## BobaBird

I've seen PTAT in Dish documents, and I like it better because the cadence of saying PTAT more closely matches PrimeTime Anytime. But I won't think less of those who prefer PTA, or anyone else from Harper Valley.


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## n0qcu

*P*rime
*T*ime
*A*nytime

Three words, three letter acronym.

Just my opinion and why


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## Stewart Vernon

n0qcu said:


> *P*rime
> *T*ime
> *A*nytime
> 
> Three words, three letter acronym.
> 
> Just my opinion and why


Not sure why this naming aspect has so much legs... but to be fair, "primetime" is often used as a singular compound word (whether correct or not)... so PA might be just as arguable.

Personally, I hate acronyms for the very reason that so much dialog in this thread has been spawned arguing over which acronym is more correct instead of whether or not the actual feature will work as advertised.


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## GOMD

Anyone have any luck ordering just 2 hoppers by themselves? I was basically forced to get 2 hoppers with 2 joeys to make it work. They wanted me to get 1 hopper to replace a vip722 and a 622. I am trying to get more tuners, not less.


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## P Smith

Stewart Vernon said:


> Not sure why this naming aspect has so much legs... but to be fair, "primetime" is often used as a singular compound word (whether correct or not)... so PA might be just as arguable.
> 
> Personally, I hate acronyms for the very reason that so much dialog in this thread has been spawned arguing over which acronym is more correct* instead of whether or not the actual feature will work as advertised.*


Nobody have it - isn't that easy ?


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## James Long

Stewart Vernon said:


> arguing over ... whether or not the actual feature will work as advertised.


Even as advertised it seems to be very limited.

I'd like to see the receiver programmed to be smart enough to realize that if someone set a timer for Jay Leno requiring a tuner to tune to the transponder carrying that market's HD locals - and then set a timer for David Letterman which is also on the same transponder - that the receiver would be smart enough to use the same tuner for both recordings and allow the other two tuners to be used for non-big four programming.

It will apparently do that during "prime time" ... using the PTA tuner for any timers set for prime time shows ... but I want the receiver to be that smart 24/7.

I also want it to handle awards shows and sports correctly. If any program is scheduled to run past the end of prime time, PTA should catch the entire program, Cutting off at 11pm (10pm CT) would make the feature useless. (The main feature of PTA being the "I forgot to set a timer" capture of prime time programming.)


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## Blowgun

BobaBird said:


> I've seen PTAT in Dish documents, and I like it better because the cadence of saying PTAT more closely matches PrimeTime Anytime.


While I agree that there is a certain cadence to PTAT, however PTAT isn't accurate. I think what matters more is what current and future subscribers are going to see when they go to DISH's own website. Currently that reads:

"The Hopper's exclusive feature, *PrimeTime Anytime*™, gives you instant On Demand access to your favorite shows...."​
So, DISH calls the feature "*P*rime*T*ime *A*nytime" and not "*P*rime*T*ime *A*ny*T*ime". Probably because DISH is aware that "PrimeTime" isn't a real word and should be spelled using either a space or a hyphen at the very least. And, that Anytime is not spelled with two words mashed together. Hence, their own capitalization on their website makes the acronym PTA. That makes PTAT more or less wishful thinking, than accurate. 

On a different matter; I agree that the PTA feature should be smart 24/7 and take full advantage of multiplexing whenever possible. I too would also hope that the Hopper would be smart enough to extend prime time should earlier prime time programming exceed the cut off point of 11pm. Having said that and I would be glad to be wrong, I bet PTA doesn't extend. If there is a game on earlier and the schedule gets shifted a ½ hour, there goes the identification of the killer on CSI. Of course, that depends on how accurate the EPG is, and as mention elsewhere, on the whole, day by day the EPG is getting worse, not better.


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## Stewart Vernon

I not only would like the ability to use primetime anytime 24/7... but the ability to select other transponders as well.

We know that it works by recording the whole transponder.. and that your LiLs will be on the same transponder in order for this to work.

It would be nice if you could switch to a different transponder and record a different group of 4 channels if you wanted. Maybe 4 of the HBOs would be on the same transponder, for example, and you could have those in perpetual record-mode.

Or maybe USA, Syfy, UniversalHD, and some other channel could be in the perpetual download cycle.

I'm also curious what happens when sports overruns things... I haven't heard where primetime anytime will "go long" on a night with sports overrun.


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## RAD

Stewart Vernon said:


> I not only would like the ability to use primetime anytime 24/7... but the ability to select other transponders as well.
> 
> We know that it works by recording the whole transponder.. and that your LiLs will be on the same transponder in order for this to work.
> 
> It would be nice if you could switch to a different transponder and record a different group of 4 channels if you wanted. Maybe 4 of the HBOs would be on the same transponder, for example, and you could have those in perpetual record-mode.
> 
> Or maybe USA, Syfy, UniversalHD, and some other channel could be in the perpetual download cycle.
> 
> I'm also curious what happens when sports overruns things... I haven't heard where primetime anytime will "go long" on a night with sports overrun.


How will would that work when that's on each transponder can, and does, change all the time, just look at the uplink reports?


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## jeffdb27

What about when prime time programming itself includes sports, like right now with the NCAA basketball tournament on CBS or in the winter when NBC has Sunday Night Football. The football definitely goes past "prime time".

And what about Sunday when prime time could be said to start at 7p/ET 6p/CT? At least network programming starts then.

Jeff


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## James Long

jeffdb27 said:


> And what about Sunday when prime time could be said to start at 7p/ET 6p/CT? At least network programming starts then.


The Hopper's prime is adjusted for the 7p/ET 6p/CT start on Sunday. That gives hope that extra hours could be recorded when sporting and other events begin early or end late.


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## P Smith

Soon real reports will come - why not wait a couple days and ask owners such questions ?


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## jeffdb27

P Smith said:


> Soon real reports will come - why not wait a couple days and ask owners such questions ?


Logic <> Fun in speculating
We're just trying to come up with things for the early owners to try out!


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## P Smith

Then you've not seen last few weeks myriad speculations by 1000s members of other site. Oh man ! Each one asking same question in many threads. So many questions what no one could possible answer that time, perhaps only new owners today ... Babylon !


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## Stewart Vernon

RAD said:


> How will would that work when that's on each transponder can, and does, change all the time, just look at the uplink reports?


True... but they have moved LiLs around as well in the past. The only way this feature works is if they don't move the LiLs around. They could also stop moving other channels around... or even if they do move them around, the receiver could just be "smart" and let you choose from currently grouped channels and then it would have to warn you if those channel groupings changed at some point.

Not likely to ever be a feature, though, but one I would like to see.


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## P Smith

PTA channels marked by special 'tag' and DVR's FW will look at it. No magic, pure technology.


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## James Long

Stewart Vernon said:


> True... but they have moved LiLs around as well in the past. The only way this feature works is if they don't move the LiLs around.


They will still be able to move the locals involved. They will just have to move them together. Moves need to be supported as channels move from ConUS to the new spotbeam satellite coming for 61.5.

PTA works as a feature because DISH has found a group of channels that are often recorded at the same time. The content on those channels generally airs once. In some cases there is an encore later in the week but in general if you miss a recording on one of your locals you miss the program completely. For people who watch a lot of broadcast network TV, recording conflicts are common and one has to make the choice which programs are recorded and which are not.

Cable network programming is often repeated within a few hours. And trying to figure out which channels to package would likely end up with more channels people wanted included than could fit on one transponder.

The second part of PTA is the "I forgot to set a timer" feature. If you forget to set a timer on a broadcast network you're most likely done. You might be able to watch on the network's website. Cable networks rerun stuff enough during a week that you generally have several chances.


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## P Smith

I would add to the whole idea of PTA - your DVR sending reports each week, what you watch and how long including (it has a name: STB Heath ).
So I'll not surprised of the PTA idea's source.


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## jeffdb27

So, I have the Sling Adapter with my 722k. I guess the same one will work with the Hopper. My question is, how will it choose a tuner? On the 722k it's kind of a pain. It always slings tuner 2. So if something is already recording on tuner 2, you have to watch that or interrupt the recording (or watch DVR content). My receiver sets most timers to record on tuner 2 when there is no confict so I often start my remote Dish app only to find I can't watch the live TV I want. 

Now that there will be three tuners to choose from, I wonder if the Sling Adapter will always use #3. It would be nice if a tuner was being used to record something, or even watch something, Sling would use a free one. Or have the remote software let you choose a tuner...

Jeff


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## P Smith

Jeff,
Lend temporary it to your neighbor who just had installed h2k and post what he will find .


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## Blowgun

P Smith said:


> I would add to the whole idea of PTA - your DVR sending reports each week, what you watch and how long including (it has a name: STB Heath ). So I'll not surprised of the PTA idea's source.


I wonder how many people would get just a little concern knowing that they were an unpaid marketing droid sending data back to the mother ship. And, those that do know, how many attempt to skew the data at every opportunity.


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## clotter

Blowgun said:


> I wonder how many people would get just a little concern knowing that they were an unpaid marketing droid sending data back to the mother ship. And, those that do know, how many attempt to skew the data at every opportunity.


I could care less about it sending my viewing or recording history, if fact, I would like what I choose to watch to be included in the Nielson ratings or wherever it goes. I am intrigued about your last comment though, any chance for a little mischief is always fun.


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## P Smith

Check what day/time it scheduled and disconnect it from Internet for hours around scheduled time.


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## archer75

clotter said:


> I could care less about it sending my viewing or recording history, if fact, I would like what I choose to watch to be included in the Nielson ratings or wherever it goes.


I agree. I hope they track everything I watch! I get really tired of every show I enjoy getting cancelled.


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## P Smith

archer75 said:


> I agree. I hope they track everything I watch! I get really tired of every show I enjoy getting cancelled.


You are barking on wrong tree.  Content provider is responsible for the shifts, cancellation, missing episode#, etc.
Your family personal habits in watching TV program giving a revenue to dish/DTV companies who are selling it to that content providers.


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## archer75

P Smith said:


> You are barking on wrong tree.  Content provider is responsible for the shifts, cancellation, missing episode#, etc.
> Your family personal habits in watching TV program giving a revenue to dish/DTV companies who are selling it to that content providers.


And I want dish to give my viewing habits to those content providers so they can see ratings beyond nelson families.


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## P Smith

archer75 said:


> And I want dish to give my viewing habits to those content providers so they can see ratings beyond nelson families.


Well, hope it's true.


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