# TVPredictions.com does not recommend HR20



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

I was checking out TVpredictions.com this morning and they have decided not to recommend the HR20 to anyone.

That really angered me. I realize that folks have had problems, but for the most part mine has been very stable and I have been very happy with it.

To just not recommend something that works fine for me really pissed me off!

The owner/moderator of the site, Swanni also pulled the favorable review of the HR20 by Cnet.

If you feel this is a disservice to the HR20, please let Mr. Swanni know.

[email protected]

Thank you


----------



## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

Do not let it bother you.

He is nobody


----------



## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

If I had 2 lemons similar to others on this forum, I would not recommend it either. Mine has been pretty darn good so I would recommend but I can certainly understand folks that get one of the lemons. I wouldnt tell people to get one either.


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> I was checking out TVpredictions.com this morning and they have decided not to recommend the HR20 to anyone.
> 
> That really angered me. I realize that folks have had problems, but for the most part mine has been very stable and I have been very happy with it.
> 
> ...


The HR20 will sell itself on its own merits. They are out of stock.

I'm very happy with mine, and don't much care what some self-appointed internet guru says. That's why this site is so valuable. We have a pretty good sample and know what the issues are (and there ARE issues). On balance for MOST people, the good far outweighs the bad and the "bad" is being addressed.

I'd be more inclined to write the guy if the HR20s were piled up in warehouses and not selling. That's not the case.


----------



## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> I was checking out TVpredictions.com this morning and they have decided not to recommend the HR20 to anyone.
> 
> That really angered me. I realize that folks have had problems, but for the most part mine has been very stable and I have been very happy with it.
> 
> ...


I don't think the fact that there are serious issues with the HR20 is a surprise. They do not affect everyone. But, if 9 in 10 didn't work good bt your's did...would you reccomend it? I doubt it.

Of course it is far less than a 90% fail rate.

Given that DirecTV has issued numerous updates and stability and reliability issues are apparently significant enough that DirecTv is still trying to resolve it by software releases and not replacing individual machines, I would say the issue is prevalent enough (and although asymptomatic, you might be a carrier) that a website may not feel comfortable reccomending that product.

What is the greater risk to credibility?

a)Reccomending a product which the compnay selling it is trying to fix many issues
b) Not Reccomending a product that works perfectly for the majority of users?

Don't take it as a personal afront.

Why are you angry a website won't recomend a product you neither designed, build or sell?


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> I was checking out TVpredictions.com this morning and they have decided not to recommend the HR20 to anyone.
> 
> That really angered me. I realize that folks have had problems, but for the most part mine has been very stable and I have been very happy with it.
> 
> ...


What did you expect? He got two HR20s and neither of them worked. Imagine if the CNET reviewer had gotten one of the non-performing HR20s back in September. Same result. A negative review. Just check out the CNET user feedback on the machine, a 4.4 rating last time I looked (one of the lowest rated products on all of CNET).

Man, as Sargeant Hulka told the troops in Stripes, "Lighten up, Francis." I can't believe the number of people who defend D* like they owned the company. They (D* management) could care less about you. It's like defending a celebrity. They don't really care what you think, so get over it. The HR20 has had serious problems for a number of users (not sure how many, but enough to warrant 8 software downloads already), regardless of how yours performs.

As as for it being sold out as a sign of its success, that really means nothing, since they have held back on making them when the box went south early on. Sure they are sold out, they cut supply until they get the thing working, which makes perfect business sense.


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

tstarn said:


> What did you expect? He got two HR20s and neither of them worked. Imagine if the CNET reviewer had gotten one of the non-performing HR20s back in September. Same result. A negative review. Just check out the CNET user feedback on the machine, a 4.4 rating last time I looked (one of the lowest rated products on all of CNET).
> 
> As as for it being sold out as a sign of its success, that really means nothing, since they have held back on making them when the box went south early on. Sure they are sold out, they cut supply until they get the thing working, which makes perfect business sense.


With a greater than 10% chance of having some sort of problem, I certainly wouldn't recommend the HR20 to the "typical casual buyer" either. I would expect that is the site's target audience. I have specifically NOT recommended the HR20 to two of my close friends...they got H20s and are quite pleased. I still wouldn't recommend the HR20 to them.

I'd like to see your proof that D* cut supply...not opinion, not conjecture, not theory, proof. Unless you have better sources of information, your contention is no more valid than my first assumption, (that demand has outstripped supply "naturally" and not because of problems).


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ah well....

He didn't want to report on OTA being activated...
He didn't want to report on ViiV being activated...

What cha gonna do... 
Anyone going to turn their HR20 back in because Swani says No don't recommend it?

If he would have bothered to "look" around at this forum (which I know he is aware of), he would know getting a replacement HR20 would not have made a difference in the long run... as it is a software problem.

There are different ways you can say "no", I don't recommend the product.
Just like we do here.... Yes, I recommend it... but do know this.... No, I can't recommend it, because.... but...; In that scenerio, you may want to use....

The article doesn't acknowledge the rate at which DirecTV is releasing software updates (either good or bad about it).

Besides... it's funny... It is possible that the Baby New year, may have a gift under that big hat of his, that will drastically improve the IKD (Instant Keep or Delete)

But ah well.... TVPredictions is nothing more then a digital-magazine... And he is in the business of "selling" his point of view. Shame though, just as we make sure to give his site credit as much as possible when we "use" an article of his...

They yet to redirect people to other sources of information....


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> As as for it being sold out as a sign of its success, that really means nothing, since they have held back on making them when the box went south early on. Sure they are sold out, they cut supply until they get the thing working, which makes perfect business sense.


As hasan pointed out... please throw out the facts that they cut production or supply.... They simply flat out underestimated initial demand in the early months... not a first for any other company (Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Mattel)


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Swanni is an interesting character. His opinions are a good read. Personally, and this is just my opinion, I take them at face value. In this case, he obviously hasn't done his homework especially with what has transpired with the HR20 over this past week.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Oh... and the "CNet" review angle he threw up there...

Just like any of the other blogs that allow any dick/jane/harry put their vote in... Even if they don't own one, have an axe to grind, ect...

Just like any poll here is "swayed" based on the user base... they are as well.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hasan said:


> With a greater than 10% chance of having some sort of problem, I certainly wouldn't recommend the HR20 to the "typical casual buyer" either. I would expect that is the site's target audience. I have specifically NOT recommended the HR20 to two of my close friends...they got HR20s and are quite pleased. I still wouldn't recommend the HR20 to them.
> 
> I'd like to see your proof that D* cut supply...not opinion, not conjecture, not theory, proof. Unless you have better sources of information, your contention is no more valid than my first assumption, (that demand has outstripped supply "naturally" and not because of problems).


Proof? Call it instinct, which, as you point out, is just as valid as your assertion.

It's the defending of D* that makes me laugh. I really get a kick out of people when they feel personally dissed over someone giving negative feedback (based on personal experience) about a product. It's completely illogical, as Mr. Spock would say.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Despite some folks having less than stellar opinions of Mr. Swann, I have seen a long track record of him willing to post and accept contrasting viewpoints.

I'd be willing to bet he'll get contrasting positive feedback. There's tons of it on various message boards form hundreds of satisfied HR20 posters.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Oh... and the "CNet" review angle he threw up there...
> 
> Just like any of the other blogs that allow any dick/jane/harry put their vote in... Even if they don't own one, have an axe to grind, ect...
> 
> Just like any poll here is "swayed" based on the user base... they are as well.


True, but try and find a product with an average as low as 4.4 with nearly 100 users reporting. It won't be easy.


----------



## MerckxMAd (Feb 15, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ah well....
> 
> He didn't want to report on OTA being activated...
> He didn't want to report on ViiV being activated...
> ...


Earl, I, like many on this forum appreciate your insight and advice, but I have to take issue with your repeated "gift" and "Santa" references. We all paid for this box and we pay a lot each month to lease it. Functionality is not a gift, it's what we pay for. Directv is not gifting anything to anyone, it is merely delivering what we all bargained for late. Don't get me wrong, I love the daily exercise of finding out what new feature works (and dread the failures and RBRs). The CSR that sold me this box left out the part about being a guinea pig, but I'm wiser now and really hope that my HR20 and I can co-exist happily for years to come. I don't confuse Directv's fixes with gifts, however.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> True, but try and find a product with an average as low as 4.4 with nearly 100 users reporting. It won't be easy.


There's a stat that is worthless.

I can show you 100 users with a "10" rating. Big deal.

Some people's glass is just always half empty.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> True, but try and find a product with an average as low as 4.4 with nearly 100 users reporting. It won't be easy.


No, but find another product that was "hated" the moment it was announced, because it was the replacement to a "beloved" product.

That was immediately dissed, before it was even possible for someone to have actually used it....


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MerckxMAd said:


> Earl, I, like many on this forum appreciate your insight and advice, but I have to take issue with your repeated "gift" and "Santa" references.


The reference was to it being a pre-national release, available via download a few days early.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, but find another product that was "hated" the moment it was announced, because it was the replacement to a "beloved" product.
> 
> That was immediately dissed, before it was even possible for someone to have actually used it....


Ain't that the truth!


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Chris Blount said:


> Swanni is an interesting character. His opinions are a good read. Personally, and this is just my opinion, I take them at face value. In this case, he obviously hasn't done his homework especially with what has transpired with the HR20 over this past week.


So he's supposed to recommend it, based on his experience? Tell me, when a professional hardware reviewer for a magazine/web site (Sound & Vision, etc.) reviews a product, and it performs poorly, does he then consult various forums to see what is happening? No, he/she writes their review based on their experience, which is what the CNET reviewer and the HDTV Magazoine reviewers initially did (one gave the HR20 a positive review, the other didn't, based on their experience).

And I can tell you, not too long ago, Phil Swann told people to be patient with the HR20, so he did give D* the benefit of the doubt. Homework? What would that be? If you read over the DBS Talk forum, there are plenty of annoyed/unhappy people with the HR20, just as there are satisfied customers. But it's definitely mixed, not heavily weighted one way or another. Right there you have data that says the HR20 has had issues from the beginning. Do you deny that? No matter how many attempts at fixing it, there are still bugs being reported, even with 10B.

His "no confidence" vote is based on his experience. What else should he use to make that call? Your experience?


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

MerckxMAd said:


> Earl, I, like many on this forum appreciate your insight and advice, but I have to take issue with your repeated "gift" and "Santa" references. We all paid for this box and we pay a lot each month to lease it. Functionality is not a gift, it's what we pay for. Directv is not gifting anything to anyone, it is merely delivering what we all bargained for late. Don't get me wrong, I love the daily exercise of finding out what new feature works (and dread the failures and RBRs). The CSR that sold me this box left out the part about being a guinea pig, but I'm wiser now and really hope that my HR20 and I can co-exist happily for years to come. I don't confuse Directv's fixes with gifts, however.


The Gift/References, has nothing to do with the actually fixes for the boxes... but the references are to the opportunity for those here on the forums to have a chance to work with a release candidate.

The "actual" software release, is not a gift or a "thank you" to the paying customers... that is a necessity and something that is "owed" to them, simply because they do have an HR20 and DirecTV has to make it work.

Sorry if my wording mixed up the two actions.


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Proof? Call it instinct, which, as you point out, is just as valid as your assertion.
> 
> It's the defending of D* that makes me laugh. I really get a kick out of people when they feel personally dissed over someone giving negative feedback (based on personal experience) about a product. It's completely illogical, as Mr. Spock would say.


That's what I thought....instinct isn't proof...it isn't "valid"...if anything, one would argue that BOTH assertions are equally invalid...don't get the statistical science backwards

Then we move onto the your assertion that it was "supply cut"...that has been refuted by Earl. Hmmmm...who ya gonna believe "instinct" or someone who has a proven track record of being accurate about D* from inside sources?

Stop looking for something to dispute...there are plenty of legitimate areas where people can reasonably disagree...this isn't one of them.

I agree with you about people feeling "personally dissed" when their product gets pee'd on. Silly! I agree with you on recommending the HR20 to the 'non-initiated" . I don't agree with imaginary causation theories for HR20 shortages. We have an affirmative statement from a trusted source to the contrary. I'll go with that, you can have your instincts 

Watch out for the Black Helicopters


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, but find another product that was "hated" the moment it was announced, because it was the replacement to a "beloved" product.
> 
> That was immediately dissed, before it was even possible for someone to have actually used it....


Nevetheless, it is still getting negative reviews on CNET and elsewhere. If it worked today for everyone, those negative reviews would have dissipated considerably.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hasan said:


> That's what I thought....instinct isn't proof...it isn't "valid"...if anything, one would argue that BOTH assertions are equally invalid...don't get the statistical science backwards
> 
> Then we move onto the your assertion that it was "supply cut"...that has been refuted by Earl. Hmmmm...who ya gonna believe "instinct" or someone who has a proven track record of being accurate about D* from inside sources?
> 
> ...


Well, if Earl has definitive proof that D* hasn't held back the HR20, then I'd love to hear about it. If, as he says, they got caught by surprise such as MS or Nintendo, fine too. But that doesn't really mean a thing relative to the reliability/performance of the machine. Didn't Nintendo just recall 2-plus million Wii?


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Nevetheless, it is still getting negative reviews on CNET and elsewhere. If it worked today for everyone, those negative reviews would have dissipated considerably.


And how many of those negative reviewers, have re-evaluated the product...for themselves (not basing it off what they are reading)... and have gone back to change their opinion (either good or bad).

Just like in a lot of things in life.... it is difficult to shake off a rocky/ruff start, and takes a lot longer to "erase" a negative, then to knock off a positive.

I hope... that CNet and other major "blogs", take a second look at the unit in the new year... Maybe at the 6 month point.. "Where is it at, 6 months later"...


----------



## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The reference was to it being a pre-national release, available via download a few days early.


So is it a shock he doesn't account for those features in his non-endorsement?

And as for what Baby New Year might bring.....going back 13 months I have heard what the "next update" will bring for the R15 or the HR20 about 200+ times...

Please can we judge the products on what they are and not on when the next update MIGHT bring.

And since the PROBLEM (and there is an admitted problem) is software driven and that software is in every HR20, I don't see how any reccomnedation without a lengthy disclaimer of potential issues could be in good concience.

I hope Baby New year brings a Plus DVR that puts Tivo, UTV and every other DVR to shame...But that New Year might be 2010 at this rate.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Well, if Earl has definitive proof that D* hasn't held back the HR20, then I'd love to hear about it. If, as he says, they got caught by surprise such as MS or Nintendo, fine too. But that doesn't really mean a thing relative to the reliability/performance of the machine. Didn't Nintendo just recall 2-plus million Wii?


Your right, it has ZERO to do with reliability/performance of the system.
And technically Nintendo only "recalled" the controlers, not the actual unit.
That would be akin to DirecTV saying they needed all the RC24 back, as they found something wrong with it.

But that wasn't the assertion... the assertion was that they deliberately stalled production to build demand, or to curb the spread of any issues.

And just like you, I have no proof that is tangible.
It is all based off what I have been told. Until DirecTV or PACE, release formal numbers in an SEC filing, or quarterly report... that is all anyone is ever going to have.


----------



## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

hasan said:


> I'd be more inclined to write the guy if the HR20s were piled up in warehouses and not selling. That's not the case.


Yeah because if it was buggy *AND* not selling you really would have him backed into a corner for writing a bad review.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There's a stat that is worthless.
> 
> I can show you 100 users with a "10" rating. Big deal.
> 
> Some people's glass is just always half empty.


Did you say something? Wasn't listening.


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Well, if Earl has definitive proof that D* hasn't held back the HR20, then I'd love to hear about it. If, as he says, they got caught by surprise such as MS or Nintendo, fine too. But that doesn't really mean a thing relative to the reliability/performance of the machine. Didn't Nintendo just recall 2-plus million Wii?


My only issue with your post was on the issue of deliberate cuts in supply. It was wrong. Is it that hard for you to say, "I guess my theory was wrong?"

You seem to have trouble taking "yes" for an answer...we agreed on all the substantive issues, but on the one issue that was pure conjecture, where we are told by a reliable source that it was not "supply cut", you now want proof from him?

I'll put it as simply as I can. I'll take Earl's word over your "theories" any day of the week. It is only you that think they are equally valid.

I give up...you are simply looking for a dispute...find someone else to play with.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mikewolf13 said:


> So is it a shock he doesn't account for those features in his non-endorsement?
> 
> And as for what Baby New Year might bring.....going back 13 months I have heard what the "next update" will bring for the R15 or the HR20 about 200+ times...
> 
> ...


You are right, he could not report on what is not actually in the system... in the public release.. And I am not faulting him for that.

All I would ask that if/when the unit is updated again, that he takes another look at the system. Just as we do here... each release, the threads all start over again... building off the new information, in relation to the old information.


----------



## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And how many of those negative reviewers, have re-evaluated the product...for themselves (not basing it off what they are reading)... and have gone back to change their opinion (either good or bad).
> 
> Just like in a lot of things in life.... it is difficult to shake off a rocky/ruff start, and takes a lot longer to "erase" a negative, then to knock off a positive.
> 
> I hope... that CNet and other major "blogs", take a second look at the unit in the new year... Maybe at the 6 month point.. "Where is it at, 6 months later"...


I find this unlikely as many reviews including yours did not even identify many of the issues experinced today...to write a "6 month later" review acknowledging improvement when no issues were identified originally may bring up questions as the accuracy or original reviews.

But I do agree that it would be very fair for sites with early negative review to re-visit, especially once a major national realease has occurred.


----------



## jerkieman (Oct 20, 2006)

The guy is right; he is talking from personal experience. I don't even use the HR20 as a DVR, I have tried to maybe record 10 shows in the past month or so I have actually had it and in that time it has successfully recorded 2 shows. It doesn't really bother me as much as it bothers others on the forum; I'm not a big TV user. I usually use it to just pause TV or other stuff like that.

MerckxMAd is right though, we shouldn’t be saying how great a job DirectTV is doing in fixing the bugs, since the product should have never been released in the present form. We are paying for a product that records shows successfully, and it still doesn't do that 100% of the time.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mikewolf13 said:


> I find this unlikely as many reviews including yours did not even identify many of the issues experinced today...to write a "6 month later" review acknowledging improvement when no issues were identified originally may bring up questions as the accuracy or original reviews.
> 
> But I do agree that it would be very fair for sites with early negative review to re-visit, especially once a major national realease has occurred.


If I where to re-write a 6month review... (which I may just do).

To be objective and fair, would be to also review it's first 6 months.
When it was first release it did A; Then it did B;
Feature C was performing like this; Now with the lastest software updates it...

Initial reviews, after just 2 weeks are such a pain to do.
That is why this time around, I just tried to give the objective/factual pieces in the actual review.

6 months is in February... Maybe it would be time to revisit then..
I'll have to put that on the calendar.


----------



## stuart628 (Jul 8, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I hope... that CNet and other major "blogs", take a second look at the unit in the new year... Maybe at the 6 month point.. "Where is it at, 6 months later"...


Why bother? You never get a second chance to make a first opinion.

The first opinion is the one that counts. The HR 20 should have NEVER been released in the condition it was in.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hasan said:


> My only issue with your post was on the issue of deliberate cuts in supply. It was wrong. Is it that hard for you to say, "I guess my theory was wrong?"
> 
> You seem to have trouble taking "yes" for an answer...we agreed on all the substantive issues, but on the one issue that was pure conjecture, where we are told by a reliable source that it was not "supply cut", you now want proof from him?
> 
> ...


No dispute. Okay, my conjecture is wrong, you are right. Does it have anything to do with the reliability of the HR20? You brought it up as proof (at least that's how it reads) that the HR20 is popular and working. I think that's what you meant. What does it being sold out have to do with its performance/reliability? You injected that into the discussion. Are you saying that because it's sold well, that makes it a good product? If so, I do dispute that assertion. One has nothing to do with the other, in my view. And why hasn't D* caught up to demand yet? It's been at least a month since the shortage started appearing.

No, I can admit when I'm wrong. But I just don't see the connection between sales (of an obviously much desired piece of gear) and performance. You yourself admit the HR20 isn't ready for prime time. That's all that really matters in this discussion. Is it or isn't it?


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

stuart628 said:


> Why bother? You never get a second chance to make a first opinion.
> 
> The first opinion is the one that counts. The HR 20 should have NEVER been released in the condition it was in.


So... a product is to be "condemed" for all eternity.. because of how it came out of the gates?

If that is the case, then TiVo would be a dead product as well.
It was not the product it is today, when it was first released.

Heck, you can say that just about any product out there.

You can't change the fact that the unit was released when it was, how it was. All you can do is correct the issues and move on.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> And why hasn't D* caught up to demand yet? It's been at least a month since the shortage started appearing.


Actually they have... Just this past week actually.
It has been reported in the installation forum, and if you call today... they will scheduled an appointed instead of putting you on a waiting list.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

FWIW I sent a respectfully worded letter of dissent to Mr. Swann, making the point that while there have been problems, D* has been working to address them and have been releasing fixes as quickly as they deemed prudent. Also, their customer service has been better than average (although it's sad that the industry average is so poor, but that's another thread).

I also asked politely if the installer ran new cables instead of reusing existing, if he was powering his multiswitch (if he had one) and if he was using adequate surge protection.


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

To be fair to Swani, 3 months ago, I would have concluded the same...missed recordings, black screen lockups, searching for sat errors....enough to make you wonder (as threads at the time pointed out) how these guys at D* kept their jobs.

I would not have recco'd the HR20 to anyone but the .0001% of the populaiton that is on the bleeding edge and can handle this stuff.

However, things have gotten better, and while I cant say I would recommend the HR20 to everyone yet (for example, my untechnology inclined parents), its getting there.

I prefer most of the features of the HR20 to the TIVO...all the HR20 needs now is the final polishing up and the ability to stay stable 99.9% of the time (which, for me, have not had a dreaded red button reset in months).


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So... a product is to be "condemed" for all eternity.. because of how it came out of the gates?
> 
> If that is the case, then TiVo would be a dead product as well.
> It was not the product it is today, when it was first released.
> ...


Earl...it's just how some people's brain works....woe is me, everything is wrong, the world is bad...ho hum....:nono2:


----------



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

tstarn said:


> ...I can't believe the number of people who defend D* like they owned the company.


It's natural for people to seek validation for their own choices. When it's not forthcoming,
or worse, when their choices are criticized, they tend to become very defensive. Quite a
few DP owners did the same thing -- when people gave EchoStar grief during the buggy
period of the DishPlayer, some DP users took the criticism personally, but we've grown...

The current bruhaha over the HR20 is so reminiscent of the early DP days. It's deja vu all
over again, but hang in there, guys -- better days are ahead. :sure:


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

If you want to do personal diggs, take them via PM...
Not in the thread...

So far this has been a pretty "reasonable" discussion, for both sides.
Let's not bring it down to the back alley.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually they have... Just this past week actually.
> It has been reported in the installation forum, and if you call today... they will scheduled an appointed instead of putting you on a waiting list.


Thanks for the update. Does that mean they are easily obtainable at CCs, BBs, etc. If so, then that's good, for those who get the ones that work as advertised.


----------



## stuart628 (Jul 8, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So... a product is to be "condemed" for all eternity.. because of how it came out of the gates?
> 
> If that is the case, then TiVo would be a dead product as well.
> It was not the product it is today, when it was first released.


 Did you have a Tivo when it was released? Did it have all its advertised features when it was released? Sure the software has gotten better, but at least the Tivo came with everything it had advertised the HR20 did not.

Take the blinders of Earl, DirecTV released an unfinished product.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Thanks for the update. Does that mean they are easily obtainable at CCs, BBs, etc. If so, then that's good, for those who get the ones that work as advertised.


Hopefully, yes... that is what it means.
I know of the status of "DirecTV" orders, not about the retail chain.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If you want to do personal diggs, take them via PM...
> Not in the thread...
> 
> So far this has been a pretty "reasonable" discussion, for both sides.
> Let's not bring it down to the back alley.


Sorry for the diversion, but I can't resist tweaking a certain HDTVfan, who consistently belittles people with real issues in these threads. He's now on my ignore list (again).


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

stuart628 said:


> Did you have a Tivo when it was released? Did it have all its advertised features when it was released? Sure the software has gotten better, but at least the Tivo came with everything it had advertised the HR20 did not.
> 
> Take the blinders of Earl, DirecTV released an unfinished product.


Actually.... no, TiVo didn't have all it's advertised features when it was released. Namely... in the DirecTivo's case, it didn't have dual recording when it was released.

Nor did any of the Series 2's have a function for that "USB" port on the unit, which was touted as a "future feature".

Your are right, they did release an Unfinished product, and frankly.. it probably won't be "finished" for a long time, as they have a fair amount of stuff planned for the box....

Edit:
Now thinking about it, even the newest TiVo Series 3; there are promises that some of the features will come later (such as MRV, TiVo2Go, ect...)


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And technically Nintendo only "recalled" the controlers, not the actual unit.


Actually, it's just the wrist straps. The Wii remotes are quite resilient. I know cause I am indeed one of those people that had the remote fly out of my hand and straight into the wall. Strap broke, but remote is working just fine. I just had to clarify, sorry to get off topic for a second


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

stuart628 said:


> Did you have a Tivo when it was released? Did it have all its advertised features when it was released? Sure the software has gotten better, but at least the Tivo came with everything it had advertised the HR20 did not..


I did - it was bug-laden and full of flaws for the first 6 months I owned it. Let's get real here.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

PoitNarf said:


> Actually, it's just the wrist straps. The Wii remotes are quite resilient. I know cause I am indeed one of those people that had the remote fly out of my hand and straight into the wall. Strap broke, but remote is working just fine. I just had to clarify, sorry to get off topic for a second


Thank you for the correction to the correction..


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> Sorry for the diversion, but I can't resist tweaking a certain HDTVfan, who consistently belittles people with real issues in these threads. He's now on my ignore list (again).


I consider that an honor. No one is belittleing anyone - we're just not letting these generalized, unsubstantiated, ridiculous naysayer claims go unanswered. Thanks for admitting, though, that you do this just to irk people. We already knew that.

We'd hate to be off topic.


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

tstarn said:


> No dispute. Okay, my conjecture is wrong, you are right. Does it have anything to do with the reliability of the HR20? You brought it up as proof (at least that's how it reads) that the HR20 is popular and working. I think that's what you meant. What does it being sold out have to do with its performance/reliability? You injected that into the discussion. Are you saying that because it's sold well, that makes it a good product? If so, I do dispute that assertion. One has nothing to do with the other, in my view. And why hasn't D* caught up to demand yet? It's been at least a month since the shortage started appearing.
> 
> No, I can admit when I'm wrong. But I just don't see the connection between sales (of an obviously much desired piece of gear) and performance. You yourself admit the HR20 isn't ready for prime time. That's all that really matters in this discussion. Is it or isn't it?


I didn't bring it up as proof that it was working perfectly. I brought it up as evidence that a LOT of people bought and continue to buy. It has problems and people are still buying it. I brought it up as evidence that a review by this guy has near ZERO effect on the sales of the HR20. The HR20 will rise or fall on its own merits. So far, its merits outweigh its problems for a large number of people ...they are sold out. Demand was very high. My "theory" is that demand will remain high. If it stays high, my assertion that the HR20's merits outweigh its problems will have been proven accurate. Whether my forecast is right or wrong doesn't get me even a warm cup of coffee

My post was about the review site, and the reliability of sites like it. I don't trust them. I've seen dozens for equipment I own, and generally I find them at best superficial and at worst technically incompetent. A forum of users with hands on, extended experience with the product is much more informative than isolated reviews by self-appointed experts. That's why this forum is so valuable.

So, no ...what mattered to me was giving too much credence to a reviewer, and then reacting with anger towards the reviewer. On all your other points w/r to the status of the HR20 for the "casual" or "typical" potential consumer we are in agreement.

I like mine. I like it a LOT! But....I'm not the typical consumer.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually.... no, TiVo didn't have all it's advertised features when it was released. Namely... in the DirecTivo's case, it didn't have dual recording when it was released.
> 
> Nor did any of the Series 2's have a function for that "USB" port on the unit, which was touted as a "future feature".
> 
> Your are right, they did release an Unfinished product, and frankly.. it probably won't be "finished" for a long time, as they have a fair amount of stuff planned for the box....


Thank the Lord, that's all anyone wanted to hear. D* released on unfinished product. Unfortunately, stability/reliability was on the "stuff planned" list, when it should have been on the "stuff included" list of the initial release for public consumption. That's all anyone taking the anti-D* side has said from the beginning. Big future plans aside, it should have worked (for the vast majority of users), it didn't, and it's taken four months, and it still doesn't. Will it next after the next download? Or the next? Or the one after that? Sooner or later, it should.

D* should get it working as a basic DVR for everyone before they move on to any big plans.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hasan said:


> I didn't bring it up as proof that it was working perfectly. I brought it up as evidence that a LOT of people bought and continue to buy. It has problems and people are still buying it. I brought it up as evidence that a review by this guy has near ZERO effect on the sales of the HR20. The HR20 will rise or fall on its own merits. So far, its merits outweigh its problems for a large number of people ...they are sold out. Demand was very high. My "theory" is that demand will remain high. If it stays high, my assertion that the HR20's merits outweigh its problems will have been proven accurate. Whether my forecast is right or wrong doesn't get me even a warm cup of coffee
> 
> My post was about the review site, and the reliability of sites like it. I don't trust them. I've seen dozens for equipment I own, and generally I find them at best superficial and at worst technically incompetent. A forum of users with hands on, extended experience with the product is much more informative than isolated reviews by self-appointed experts. That's why this forum is so valuable.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. When I read reviews, even for gear I eventually own, I try to read several and look for a consensus (same with music, movies, etc.). If 5 out of 6 reviewers (not forum members) give it thumbs down, I stay away. If 5 of 6 love it, I buy (if I can afford it). With the HR20, I bought before any reviews hit the street. If I had waited (or started reading the DBS Talk forum later), I might have said, well, I guess I will hold off a while. They should get it together. I didn't. Funny thing is, mine works as well as yours. It's just I hate it when people denigrate others having issues with the tag "whiners," "complainers," etc. So I toss in my two cents (actually, it's been more like $1). I like the HR20. It's the reliability issue and D*'s head in the sand response that makes me mad.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> Thank the Lord, that's all anyone wanted to hear. D* released on unfinished product.


...and based on that criteria, neither has GM,. Ford, Toyota, GE, Dell, Westinghouse, Maytag, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo ....et al...


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Are you saying the unit *hasn't* improved... at all in the 4 months that it has been released... from a reliability, base DVR functionality point.

Not one bit, nothing... they have done nothing to correct those issues, but have just throw new feature each time...

No, all the issues haven't been resolved yet... nor have they "given up" trying to resolve them...

Even yourself, in previous posts... have said that the latest version of the software has started to change your opinion on the unit.

Shoudl all of this have been there in the first version... sure... but you can't change what has been done.


----------



## banningview (Dec 13, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ah well....
> 
> He didn't want to report on OTA being activated...
> He didn't want to report on ViiV being activated...
> ...


All of those new features are great, but the people touting the greatness of the machine are probably less than 100 on this forum. Seriously! Look at the names. I can name a few of you cats right off the top of my head because your posts come up again and again and again. All saying basically the same thing. There are lot of these machines doing all sorts of kooky things. Case in point...

I'm watching a b-ball game last night. I have to leave for a little while so I hit record. Come back later. The recording is all jacked up. Time line on the bottom has the wrong times and it's not moving when I FFW. I check the playlist nothing there. I go back to the recording it's still going. Help me with that one. RBR again? Come on! Missed the whole fourth quarter and yes the little R was there for recording. The typical D* sub is going to look at that and say it's broken, but we all know that it's par for the course. Nothing new. Just another day with the HR20.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm with hasan on this. I read a lot of reviews when I'm considering buying a product, but generally I'm just mining them for facts. I don't put much credence in the reviewer's opinion. 

Mr. Swann is generally well-regarded in his group of friends, I'm sure, but I doubt he's really shaping opinions more than word-of-mouth is. 

I've said it before, I've bought a lot of products that should have been put back in the oven before releasing them. I remember some fondly and some still make me cringe. So far I've only seen one other product that had such an aggressive development team behind it. On the other hand, I've had to make international phone calls and resort to begging for some products that I paid over $10,000 for and still didn't get an update every other week like HR20 has had. 

I don't care where it was 4 months ago. I care how quickly they've made it better, because it makes me think that 4 months from now it will be stellar.


----------



## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So... a product is to be "condemed" for all eternity.. because of how it came out of the gates?
> 
> If that is the case, then TiVo would be a dead product as well.
> It was not the product it is today, when it was first released.
> ...


Agreed, But you it is very fair to consider the state of the original product when putting your "faith" in the improvements.

I have no confidence in any DVR+ branded product and have seen nothing to change that opinion...if you ordered dinner at a restraunt and it took 15 tries to get it right but the 15th was prety damn tasty...do you reccomend the restraunt based on try 15?

because so many people report perfectly working machines, but we all know that the problem is in the software they all share, i won't feel confident until a real "fix" is released and "out there" for several months.

They are 0 for 2 in releasing a quality product IMO. So OTA might be great, Viiv might be great, Direct2Go , if it ever happens might be great...I have no confidence yet.

As far as Tivo, MS, Nintendo etc..I don't care. The subject is DVR+

It is also unfair to consider all the promised features when evaluating the product and not look at how long it has taken to realize those features.

I certanly understand the 2 week reviews on a single box can't possibly be definitive. Which is why it's nice to have multiple sources. i can check Earl's "review" I can read the reviews at CNET , I can check out the reviews on Circut City and take the sum of the reviews, consider the sources and decide.

I only intended to point out that any review is a snapshot of that experience at THAT time. Earl's "review" was accurate for his experience. Swani's (presumably) is as well.

What I would like to see is an appendix to reviews on this site with known (especially if Earl knows DTV knows it's an issue) issues. Otherwise a newcomer might see the sticky review and assume the picture is as rosy as it was for Earl after 2 weeks.


----------



## upnorth (Jun 21, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Proof? Call it instinct, which, as you point out, is just as valid as your assertion.
> 
> It's the defending of D* that makes me laugh. I really get a kick out of people when they feel personally dissed over someone giving negative feedback (based on personal experience) about a product. It's completely illogical, as Mr. Spock would say.


Just because I post that I am happy with my HR20 and have not had the problems some have and that I am satisfied with my D* service, in know way means I am in total agreement with all of D*'s decisions.
Call it defend if you wish but yes I defend my decision to stick it out with D* because I feel they are in the best position to provide the services I want now and in the future.
And if that is not the case for you maybe it is time to move on and select another provider.
Oh and it also makes me laugh how the negative people jump all over someone who posts anything positive.
But then again that is the nature of these forums it wouldnt be much of a forum with out the positive and the negative views
Happy Holidays to you and All


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mikewolf13 said:


> What I would like to see is an appendix to reviews on this site with known (especially if Earl knows DTV knows it's an issue) issues. Otherwise a newcomer might see the sticky review and assume the picture is as rosy as it was for Earl after 2 weeks.


And in fairness, the last time this conversation came up..
I did add to the first and last post of the review, references back to the forum...

So readers can see the latest information on the product.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

upnorth said:


> But then again that is the nature of these forums it wouldnt be much of a forum with out the positive and the negative views


Indeed.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

upnorth said:


> Just because I post that I am happy with my HR20 and have not had the problems some have and that I am satisfied with my D* service, in know way means I am in total agreement with all of D*'s decisions.
> Call it defend if you wish but yes I defend my decision to stick it out with D* because I feel they are in the best position to provide the services I want now and in the future.
> And if that is not the case for you maybe it is time to move on and select another provider.
> Oh and it also makes me laugh how the negative people jump all over someone who posts anything positive.
> ...


I've been a sub with D* for 10 years, never had a major problem. With the HR20, their approach has been less than customer-friendly. I don't own an R15, but I read those forums and the same is true with that box too. I just believe their decision to go it alone on DVRs was a mistake, one they are not going to ever admit. They were never a hardware provider, they are a content provider. And the decision made by News Corp. to move into the DVR space was solely based on their ownership of NDS. It sounded good on paper, but was a poor move overall. Hopefully, they will get it figured out for both the R15 and the HR20. I also own an H20, and it works fine, but then again, it's not a DVR.

That's why I feel defending D* is strange under these circumstances.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> I've been a sub with D* for 10 years, never had a major problem. With the HR20, their approach has been less than customer-friendly. I don't own an R15, but I read those forums and the same is true with that box too. I just believe their decision to go it alone on DVRs was a mistake, one they are not going to ever admit. They were never a hardware provider, they are a content provider. And the decision made by News Corp. to move into the DVR space was solely based on their ownership of NDS. It sounded good on paper, but was a poor move overall. Hopefully, they will get it figured out for both the R15 and the HR20. I also own an H20, and it works fine, but then again, it's not a DVR.
> 
> That's why I feel defending D* is strange under these circumstances.


They are not the first, nor the last company, that wanted to venture into something that they haven't done before. Only time will tell how it will end up in the end.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl - 

I think your idea of a 6-month review is excellent. I look forward to it.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are not the first, nor the last company, that wanted to venture into something that they haven't done before. Only time will tell how it will end up in the end.


Agreed. But they are the first company I've ever had a connection with (and it might be the case for others too) that made such a dramatic move (and it was a major move, in my view). So it stands to reason that if the early going is not very smooth, they are going to take their lumps on it. I also want a positive outcome, but with the company now up for imminent sale (and the latest rumor is AT&T will buy D* from Liberty/Malone), that makes the future even less predictable.


----------



## Bay CIty (Dec 4, 2006)

Yes the hr-20 is selling well, no it is not totally reliable yet. Yes it has improved much in the last 3 months.

that said in order for directv to continue to be the leader, they must get all bugs out of this box. The average Joe is not searching the web forums nor does he want to deal with a flaky system. All he wants is to come home from a hard day at work and sit down at night to watch his favorite tv programs his dvr has recorded.
Plug and Play not RBR.
I would not recommend the hr-20 at this point in time either.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So... a product is to be "condemed" for all eternity.. because of how it came out of the gates?


Given your statement above....


Earl Bonovich said:


> No, but find another product that was "hated" the moment it was announced, because it was the replacement to a "beloved" product.
> 
> That was immediately dissed, before it was even possible for someone to have actually used it....


...DTV should have been well aware of the uphill battle they had chosen to fight. DTV should have made darn sure that the DVR replacing those "beloved" Tivos was as close to perfect as possible. No one put a gun to DTVs head in this decision. They simply screwed up the implementation of this product.

Remember the introduction of "New Coke"? That was a product that was, and should have been, "condemned" for all eternity. So to answer your question, depending on how a new product release is handled, and how the new product performs, it's not unreasonable for a product to be "condemned". Does this apply to the R15/HR20? That will be debated over and over, but to some the answer is yes and to some the answer is no.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Thank the Lord, that's all anyone wanted to hear. D* released on unfinished product. Unfortunately, stability/reliability was on the "stuff planned" list, when it should have been on the "stuff included" list of the initial release for public consumption. That's all anyone taking the anti-D* side has said from the beginning. Big future plans aside, it should have worked (for the vast majority of users), it didn't, and it's taken four months, and it still doesn't. Will it next after the next download? Or the next? Or the one after that? Sooner or later, it should.
> 
> D* should get it working as a basic DVR for everyone before they move on to any big plans.


Yes, I am overall a supporter of DirecTV (no surprise there for sure). But you say you speak for EVERYBODY right in your first sentence and you DON'T. There are many peeps that know/knew full well that this DVR was going to need and get many firmware revisions and STILL invested in it(money, time, combo, etc.) - I have read a number of posts from members that actually enjoy the opportunity to 'beta' a new technology/product and contribute in a small way to its development. Geez, everyday right in this forum people acknowledge the HR20's plusses and minuses and STILL order it.

There are also lots of peeps (and I believe its still by FAR the majority of OVERALL users) that DON'T utilize OTA and have had little or no real issues with the HR20 - and thus are extremely satisfied. We here (and of course on similar boards) are the ones that supposedly keep up with the day to day things (I say supposedly because lots of people obviously post withour regard to fact) and are the ones that want everything NOW.

I always try to gauge by what others in similar industries face. The worlds largest and most successful company is ALWAYS updating its code as it finds issues/problems/hacks, etc. Yes I'm talking about MICROSOFT. Cars are tested in various configurations for a year + before introduction - don't they always have re-calls to correct BOTH hardware and software issues? It's really everywhere in this hi-tech world we live in.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Proof? Call it instinct, which, as you point out, is just as valid as your assertion.
> 
> It's the defending of D* that makes me laugh. I really get a kick out of people when they feel personally dissed over someone giving negative feedback (based on personal experience) about a product. It's completely illogical, as Mr. Spock would say.


I'm not sure where you get this idea from my post that I'm defending Directv.....all I am saying is that I have had few to no problems with the HR20 and to have a site blatantly say that the box cannot be recommended based on some e-mail complaints and the site owner's personal experience is extremely biased as well as not providing all the information to folks who are contemplating acquiring this product.

Personally I would want to have all the information, good and bad before making up my own mind.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> Personally I would want to have all the information, good and bad before making up my own mind.


A B S O L U T E L Y ! ! ! !

Well put, well put, well put.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

jerkieman said:


> The guy is right; he is talking from personal experience. I don't even use the HR20 as a DVR, I have tried to maybe record 10 shows in the past month or so I have actually had it and in that time it has successfully recorded 2 shows. It doesn't really bother me as much as it bothers others on the forum; I'm not a big TV user. I usually use it to just pause TV or other stuff like that.
> 
> MerckxMAd is right though, we shouldn't be saying how great a job DirectTV is doing in fixing the bugs, since the product should have never been released in the present form. We are paying for a product that records shows successfully, and it still doesn't do that 100% of the time.


Maybe I should return mine to Directv so they can study it and figure out why it records all the shows I ask 100% of the time......hmmnnn....maybe I've got the Golden Idol!!! The one working HR20!

Thank you DVR Gods! :hurah: :hurah:


----------



## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

cawgijoe said:


> to have a site blatantly say that the box cannot be recommended based on some e-mail complaints and the site owner's personal experience is extremely biased


So its biased to not recommend a box based on your own personal experience???


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

raott said:


> So its biased to not recommend a box based on your own personal experience???


If you are in the public eye, you need to post both sides. If you experience is bad, say so, but don't think that it's gospal truth and applies to everyone.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

raott said:


> So its biased to not recommend a box based on your own personal experience???


That's the entire point on the review issue. No one offers a review of a product based on anything other than their personal experience. It's not bias, it's their experience! And in Swanni's case, he tried the normal consumer path (a second box), and that failed too. This whole HR20 discussion (was it ready or not?) is never going to be resolved, let's face it, until the only discussion on DBS Talk is ONLY about the new, working features (not all the fixes). End of story. Mine even works, but I still believe D* did a very poor job of deploying this product. Nothing is going to change my mind on that issue. Anyone who says they have (done a good job of deploying the HR20) is out of touch with reality. It's impossible to think otherwise.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> If you are in the public eye, you need to post both sides. If you experience is bad, say so, but don't think that it's gospal truth and applies to everyone.


Ridiculous assertion. Sorry to be so blunt. People in the public eye write reviews based on their experience, and people can take it or leave it. But they are not required to "post both sides."


----------



## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

cawgijoe said:


> If you are in the public eye, you need to post both sides. If you experience is bad, say so, but don't think that it's gospal truth and applies to everyone.


It is a review, nothing more. One mans opinion. That is what he does, he gives his opinions. Lighten up.


----------



## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

I sent this email:
--------------------------
_Phillip,

I wanted you to know that my DVR Plus HR20 works great!

Yes, I have had to reboot a couple of times. I have also had to reboot my old TiVo during this same time.

I know that there are 100 very unhappy and very outspoken critics of the HR20. Some will never be happy because the HR20 will never be a TiVo. It is like asking a Mopar guy to drive an F150.

How many different people have you heard about anywhere in the US who are unhappy? In all of the forums, articles, and blogs I can only track about 100. The weird part is that many are on their second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth replacement HR20's.

Consumer electronics have return rates of 1 to 3% as defective. My two local Best Buys report that they have had no more HR20's returned than other electronics. For the sake of argument, let's say the HR20 is not actually 2% but 10%. That would mean that for these users the odds of 6 bad HR20's in a row is 1 in a million.

Hmmm...

The other possibility is a self or bad install, old cables, old connectors, power spikes, or other external factors.

People who have a great experience with a product rarely seek out forums. They are too busy playing with their new toys.

I think that these few noisy people have misled you.

Here are some of the HR20 features I really like:
+ HD OTA - 24 channels in my area

+ The Multimedia viewing of MPG's and JPG's off my PC is great. It turns out it does not need ViiV.

+ Large 300 GB Hard Drive - More Hours of Storage

+ eSATA External Drive - lets you add an external hard drive giving you even more recording time.

+ Quicker Response - no more of TiVo's constant "Please Wait" messages

+ Quick Record - Press ® RECORD. Done! Press ® RECORD twice to set up a Season Pass! Done!

+ Faster Fast Forward - 5, 12, 20, or 90 times faster than normal play speed!

+ Skip to Tick at 300 times faster!

+ Hard Drive Usage Meter (%) - Display in My Playlist to show how much space you have left to use.

+ HD, SD Video Output Options - All outputs are available at the same time!

+ Better Conflict Resolution -If you try to record a third show at one time, you can choose to delete either previous request or the new one!

+ Soft Buffering - Extend a first show a few minutes longer and start next show a few minutes early-on two channels.

+ ACTIVE - Access the Active Channel - local weather and more!

+ RF Remote Built-in! - lets you control the HR20 when it is behind a cabinet door or in another room

+ Control Two HR20's - Control two HR20's from one HR20 Remote!

+ Watch One HR20 in Multiple Rooms - Use a second RF remote & the multiple video outputs!

+ Bookmarks - Bookmark a great play or a funny line to jump back to later.

+ Picture In List - Keep watching your show while you check the Guide or My Playlist (Now Showing)

+ Great Commercial Skip - TiVo's had a hidden feature to Skip 30 seconds at a time - but screen froze. ADVANCE Jumps ahead in a recording - 30 second Slip in 1½ seconds. Screen does not freeze!

+ Native Mode - Automatically picks the best display resolution

+ Great Dolby® Digital 5.1 Audio

+ No Phone Requirement - You only have to connect a phone line for Pay Per Views

+ Caller ID - Caller ID onscreen pop-up option

+ Better Pay Per View Billing - Pay when you PLAY a show not When you Record a show!

I may be the only happy user who has taken time away from playing with my HR20 to tell you about it. Please know that there are many happy users.
_

I also note that some of the people who are the most negative about the HR20 don't support dbstalk either. Look for the DBSTalk Club Member under the names to see who's who. Count their posts and divide it by the $15 it takes to be a supporter.

If you have someone who does not know what to get you for Christmas, click the support link below.

This month I got HD OTA and last night got ViiV to work without needing ViiV or even Twonky! Without this forum I would not have even known I was now getting those features let alone how to do it.

Thank you!

- Craig


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Ridiculous assertion. Sorry to be so blunt. People in the public eye write reviews based on their experience, and people can take it or leave it. But they are not required to "post both sides."


Then all reviews are completely biased and why do we even bother to read them?

I don't even know why you own an HR20 if you dislike the product so much. Has anyone told you that there are other options in your area....heard of cable? FIOS?

:grin:


----------



## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Did my research here at DBSTalk first. Got the box anyway knowing there were potential issues. Got help here after the lease started. 100% satisfied with performance to this point. Have a D*Tivo backup anyway. 

Here's what I would recommend to a potential lessee: Go to DBSTalk, do the research, and then make up your own mind. If you choose to go forward despite the warnings, participate here for help in solving your issues, or participate here to help others solve their issues.

To go round and round with the big picture discussion about what D* has or hasn't done is IMHO a waste of time. That's an issue to take up with D*, which you know will get you nowhere.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I also note that some of the people who are the most negative about the HR20 don't support dbstalk either. Look for the DBSTalk Club Member under the names to see who's who. Count their posts and divide it by the $15 it takes to be a supporter.


That is not the point or basis of this forum.

DBSTalk doesn't require any form of payment, or to be a member to have access to this discussion or this forum.
Heck, we don't even require you to be a member to read the posts... just to reply to them.

In fact, mostly what is in the "Club" is a place where you can sell your old equipment, and some additional off topic areas.... Out here in the public forums is where the "Real" work for the forum is don't.

Out in the open, where anyone can join in:
1) Provided you subscribe to the forum
2) You haven't been banned for violating the terms of the site.

Other then that....

This is NOT a rah-rah for ANY product... at its core, it is discussion forum.
We are not NEWS.dbstalk.com. If all we wanted here was headlines and press releases... it wouldn't be what it is.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

raott said:


> It is a review, nothing more. One mans opinion. That is what he does, he gives his opinions. Lighten up.


That's fine.

I'll be taking his opinions with a grain of salt from now on.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> I was checking out TVpredictions.com this morning and they have decided not to recommend the HR20 to anyone.
> 
> That really angered me. I realize that folks have had problems, but for the most part mine has been very stable and I have been very happy with it.
> 
> ...


I like the HR20 much better now with the newer features in the past month. However, I've had it lock up on me at least 5 times. From a "normal" consumer standpoint, this is absolutely unacceptable for a piece of equipment like this.

I would have to agree, that for the average consumer, this box is not ready. But if you don't mind rebooting, and your a tech head, this box is just fine.

Once these kind of problems are ironed out, it will be highly recommended.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I sent this email:
> --------------------------
> _Phillip,
> 
> ...


Wow, I bet he'll retract his "no confidence" stance after reading that post. Not. Guess you missed his point. He doesn't recommend the HR20 because his two different machines failed to work. No one misled him, he was just stating his opinion based on his experience. Man, you really wasted a lot of time writing that email. Can't speak for anyone else, but my caring about Tivo had nothing to do with my early problems with the HR20. It's lack of reliability was the problem, and still is (even though mine works okay right now, apart from a freeze and RBR now and again)


----------



## stuart628 (Jul 8, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> DBSTalk doesn't require any form of payment, or to be a member to have access to this discussion or this forum.
> Heck, we don't even require you to be a member to read the posts... just to reply to them.


Correct me if I am wrong but didnt you guys charge $15 the other day for access to the watercooler area so that people could learn about the second wave of "santa coming" and download the OTA software? Or did I read something wrong?

However with that said, I must say thank you to Earl for all that he has done, without Earl this site would be a ghost town. he is the true heart of dbstalk!


----------



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

TvPredictions is mostly about one person's opinions. It's the same with any critic,
be it film, tv programming, food or fashion. Whether one agrees or disagrees, the
man is certainly entitled to his own opinion -- anyone who disagrees is welcome
to start their own web site touting the virtues of the HR20. So Mr. Swann makes
a buck being opinionated and controversial -- more power to him. Look at the D*
heads who are looking at his site and talking about his comments. He must be
doing something right!


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> Then all reviews are completely biased and why do we even bother to read them?
> 
> I don't even know why you own an HR20 if you dislike the product so much. Has anyone told you that there are other options in your area....heard of cable? FIOS?
> 
> :grin:


Really, cable? FIOS? What's are those? Don't insult me. I am not unhappy with the HR20 (mine works most of the time), I am unhappy with the way D* released a product that wasn't ready to go, and then called it (in public that is, in its CNET statement) their most successful product launch ever, or words to that effect. No need to belabor the point. Yes, reviews are biased. Now, you learned something today.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

stuart628 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but didnt you guys charge $15 the other day for access to the watercooler area so that people could learn about the second wave of "santa coming" and download the OTA software? Or did I read something wrong?
> 
> However with that said, I must say thank you to Earl for all that he has done, without Earl this site would be a ghost town. he is the true heart of dbstalk!


Nope, must have been a mis-understanding.
None of the the "santa" information was ever put into the watercooler area.

All of the information from me (not sure about any additional conversations), was out in the general HR20 forum.

The subscription thread "to be notified", was (and still is) up in the sticky area.

As for being the heart of DBSTalk, I am just one of the many cogs... I can't do what I do with out the help of the others around here...they help in a lot of ways.

But thank you for the compliment.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

stuart628 -

The "tell me when santa's coming" thread was here in the free forum. There was no charge for that information. 

A lot of people joined the club after that, and one of the reasons might have been gratitude for that information, but there was no charge for the initial info and no promise of payment from anyone here.

I think it's important to remember that the club is optional, for those who feel it's worth their $15 to support this site, which must cost something to operate.

EDIT: Dangit Earl beat me to the answer!


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Nick said:


> TvPredictions is mostly about one person's opinions. It's the same with any critic,
> be it film, tv programming, food or fashion. Whether one agrees or disagrees, the
> man is certainly entitled to his own opinion -- anyone who disagrees is welcome
> to start their own web site touting the virtues of the HR20. So Mr. Swann makes
> ...


Sure Philip Swann was smiling as he read all the hostile posts from those who got so riled up about his comments in the first place.


----------



## feldon30 (Dec 10, 2006)

If Swann had more credibility, I'd pay attention to his writings.

I actually don't see anything in here:
http://www.tvpredictions.com/askswanni122106.htm

that is objectionable based on what I have seen in actual usage on this forum.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Here's a question:

Would you recommend a car that stalled out in the middle of the highway every 3 or 4 days? Even if it was a technological marvel, stalling out on the highway, frequently , is a problem that needs to get ironed out. Sure the car might be great for a mechanic, or someone in that line of work, but for joe consumer - not so much.

Its no different with this box. Does anyone really think this box should be recommended (TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC - think Grandpa) in its current condition?


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> I also note that some of the people who are the most negative about the HR20 don't support dbstalk either. Look for the DBSTalk Club Member under the names to see who's who. Count their posts and divide it by the $15 it takes to be a supporter.


Just a clarification on that point. Club members can also change their "User Title". So just because someones title doesn't read "DBSTalk Club Member" doesn't mean they aren't. I became a member a while ago and anyone can see I have my share of negative and positive comments. Being a paid member has no bearing on ones view of Tivo's, R15's, HR20's, Dish or DirecTv.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Really, cable? FIOS? What's are those? Don't insult me. I am not unhappy with the HR20 (mine works most of the time), I am unhappy with the way D* released a product that wasn't ready to go, and then called it (in public that is, in its CNET statement) their most successful product launch ever, or words to that effect. No need to belabor the point. Yes, reviews are biased. Now, you learned something today.


You need to calm down.

You come across as extremely negative when it comes to Directv and the HR20 in your posts and responses.

I'm not going to trade barbs with you because it's a complete waste of time and bandwith.

It sounds like you are saying that the HR20 is fine for you but you don't like the Directv company......if it bother's you so much...switch.....simple as that.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> Would you recommend a car that stalled out in the middle of the highway every 3 or 4 days? Even if it was a technological marvel, stalling out on the highway, frequently , is a problem that needs to get ironed out. Sure the car might be great for a mechanic, or someone in that line of work, but for joe consumer - not so much.


But in general... with a "car" do you automatically assume ALL of them are effected by the same problem, or possible just your's is having the issue.

Now, that is not saying that the HR20 doesn't have flaws... It does.
DirecTV knows it, and is trying to fix them. The upside, is that they can push those fixes to you, without you having to take a day off of work, and bring the HR20 to a service shop... :;


----------



## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Part of the hard part of this discussion is that it seems "HR20 lovers" refuse to acknowledge the bar has been raised since the introduction of DVRs back in the late 1990s. So when Swanni reviews something, it's not as if this is the first time he or his readers have seen a DVR. And yes, the latest software release has some new features and fixes some stability issues, but a lot of issues still remain. Is it really so hard to imagine that a consumer electronics review of (essentially) a 4th or 5th generation DVR would be negative if there were the kinds of problems that necessitated 8-10 major software upgrades in 4 months? And the "biggest fixes" come from a release that wasn't available until this past week? If DirecTV wants better reviews, it shouldn't be selling a product nationally until the software was at a state like it is now. Fairly simple.

Yes, I know, there are people experiencing little to no problems, but most of the "really" satisfied customers on the boards have only become "satisfied" over the last couple of releases. That's a lot of patience to require of the average consumer, let alone a technical reviewer with higher expectations.

Is it really a surprise to anyone that most reviews of the HR20 at this point are negative at this point? To even the most patient, the HR20 is not a *really good *product yet. It might not be awful, but it's certainly not appreciably better than what came before (unless you count the R15 or something like the original DishPlayer). When the HR20 shakes out all the bugs, the reviews will change and most of the haters will go away (except those that just can't stand the non-Tivoness).

Remember, the Dishplayer crashed a lot, but some were willing to accept that because the technology was so new. Sure, the 1st generation DirecTivo didn't have dual-tuners when it came out, but then it did, so all future DVR+ systems need to have it, and it needs to work (ignoring the DLB issue for now). Between 1998 and 2006 we've seen Replays, S1 Tivos, S2 Tivos, R10s, Ultimate TV, Moto/SciAm cable DVRs and the HR10-250, all of which "raised the expectations bar" for DVRs. Other stuff (HMO, MRV, "ToGo") is fluff, and I don't care about the differences in UI (that's not enough to recommend one product over another, imho). But No one got everything right, but for DirecTV to release the R15 and HR20 in the state they did was bad customer service, and bad planning. Very few people will defend Microsoft if Vista is less stable than XP and they defended it by saying "Vista's new". DirecTV, Microsoft, Apple are all huge corporations with massive resources at their disposal. Their failure to adequately test products before releasing them need not be excused.

*Believe me, I want the HR20 to work, badly. *I want to stick with DirecTV not because I owe them anything, but because I really don't want to go to cable. I'm heartened by the recent progress with the latest software releases, and actually believe that Earl's right about how the future will judge the HR20 -"check back in 3-6 months, it'll be 'fine' by then". But right now, despite the progress, I wouldn't recommend the HR20 to anyone but those with a technical bent and a heap of patience.

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend buying HR10 either, because I think it's "obsolete". And even the S3, with the one-way cable card support makes me hesitate to recommend spending $700 on it. Right now I wouldn't recommend paying for any DVR beyond some $5-10/month lease fee.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But in general... with a "car" do you automatically assume ALL of them are effected by the same problem, or possible just your's is having the issue.
> 
> Now, that is not saying that the HR20 doesn't have flaws... It does.
> DirecTV knows it, and is trying to fix them. The upside, is that they can push those fixes to you, without you having to take a day off of work, and bring the HR20 to a service shop... :;


i agree the analogy is not perfect. but say you are an editor for car and driver and 20% of users are reporting these problems. Do you recommend the car? OR do you write a review stating the idea of the car is solid, and once FORD/GM/Toyota irons out the flaws it will be worth recommending, but that you can't currently recommend it?

And as for taking it in the shop - on this forum, it seems plenty have had to send it back a few times.


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> i agree the analogy is not perfect. but say you are an editor for car and driver and 20% of users are reporting these problems. Do you recommend the car? OR do you write a review stating the idea of the car is solid, and once FORD/GM/Toyota irons out the flaws it will be worth recommending, but that you can't currently recommend it?
> 
> And as for taking it in the shop - on this forum, it seems plenty have had to send it back a few times.


For instance:

I would recommend this box to my buddy who is a programmer, but not to my father. And I think of my father as a typical consumer for products like these.


----------



## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But in general... with a "car" do you automatically assume ALL of them are effected by the same problem, or possible just your's is having the issue.
> 
> Now, that is not saying that the HR20 doesn't have flaws... It does.
> DirecTV knows it, and is trying to fix them. The upside, is that they can push those fixes to you, without you having to take a day off of work, and bring the HR20 to a service shop... :;


People (at least those that own American cars) expect their car to occasionally break down. They do not expect the same from their cable/satellite box, especially not in the first three months of ownership.

However, it's obviously a good thing (given the alternative) that DirecTV is continuing to release new software. if there wasn't upgradeable software on the HR20 (i.e. if it were, say, a digital camera with bugs that caused every 10th shot to disappear) DirecTV would be in a world of hurt.

Remember, as "unimportant" as TV is, a lot of us and our families look forward to watching our shows as a way to "unwind" from hard days. And the last thing we want is for our DVRs to fail to record, delete programs, or crash. It adds a level of stress to something that's not supposed to be stressful. And it's enough to make many want to take their $600-1000/year in subscription costs elsewhere.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

cawgijoe said:


> You need to calm down.
> 
> You come across as extremely negative when it comes to Directv and the HR20 in your posts and responses.


It's been like that since the month the HR20 came out....he and 3-4 other posters here "live" for negative comments and then confrontation.

Thank goodness for Earl. He tells us the *facts*.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

jcricket said:


> Part of the hard part of this discussion is that it seems "HR20 lovers" refuse to acknowledge the bar has been raised since the introduction of DVRs back in the late 1990s. So when Swanni reviews something, it's not as if this is the first time he or his readers have seen a DVR. And yes, the latest software release has some new features and fixes some stability issues, but a lot of issues still remain. Is it really so hard to imagine that a consumer electronics review of (essentially) a 4th or 5th generation DVR would be negative if there were the kinds of problems that necessitated 8-10 major software upgrades in 4 months? And the "biggest fixes" come from a release that wasn't available until this past week? If DirecTV wants better reviews, it shouldn't be selling a product nationally until the software was at a state like it is now. Fairly simple.
> 
> Yes, I know, there are people experiencing little to no problems, but most of the "really" satisfied customers on the boards have only become "satisfied" over the last couple of releases. That's a lot of patience to require of the average consumer, let alone a technical reviewer with higher expectations.
> 
> ...


I think I know what my "problem" is.....this is my first DVR....it has worked and improved each release....has not crashed....I have never owned a DVR previous to this so I don't know what I am missing.

I like it. Maybe if I owned a DVR previous to this such as a Tivo I would have a much different opinion.


----------



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

stuart628 said:


> ...I must say thank you to Earl for all that he has done, without Earl this site would
> be a ghost town...


I can see how a few might think that if their only interest here is the HR20. There are
many other forums on other subjects of interest to a broad cross-section of users. I
first came here four years ago initially for info on another buggy IRD, but I stayed for
the camaraderie and a wider range of interesting discussions.

The world didn't revolve around the DishPlayer then, and, despite how passionately
you obviously feel, it doesn't revolve around the HR20 now.

I have the SA 8300HD DVR with cable now and it's hard to get all worked up over
something that works 100% of the time -- but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it.

:sure:


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thank goodnes for Earl. He tells us the *facts*.


For what it is worth...
What I tell you all, is what I have been told. So yes, there is some part of subjectivity to it... as you have to understand the basis it is comming from.

2 + 2 = 4 is an undisputable fact.
"They are working on it", is a fact... but it is subject to discussion.

Just like with a few weeks ago...
It was a "fact" that customers where told by CSRs, that OTA was not comming to 2007. but that doesn't make the fact... correct.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Nick said:


> I can see how a few might think that if their only interest here is the HR20. There are
> many other forums on other subjects of interest to a broad cross-section of users. I
> first came here four years ago initially for info on another buggy IRD, but I stayed for
> the camaraderie and a wider range of interesting discussions.
> ...


Very Very true.
The name of the site is DBSTalk not DirecTVTalk.


----------



## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But in general... with a "car" do you automatically assume ALL of them are effected by the same problem, or possible just your's is having the issue.
> 
> Now, that is not saying that the HR20 doesn't have flaws... It does.
> DirecTV knows it, and is trying to fix them. The upside, is that they can push those fixes to you, without you having to take a day off of work, and bring the HR20 to a service shop... :;


In fairness, would you automatically assume all of them DON'T have the same problem? Common sense would say you aren't the only owner with a "problem child".

Could you then recommend that others buy a product knowing there is a statistical probability it COULD very well have such a problem?

If I understand correctly, he did not say DON'T buy an HR20, he just doesn't recommend it or say you SHOULD buy one.

And not to condemn any other posters, and God Bless those of you who are enjoying your HR20 trouble-free but D* absolutley went to market prematurely with a very shaky product being sold (excuse me LEASED  ) to replace a beloved product with their own in-house brand. That was unwise.

They guaranteed themselves unfavorable comparisons and resentment putting a product with known problems out there for public consumption. If they wanted the whole DBS enchilada to themselves, content AND hardware, they should have made darn sure that their product was bullet-proof before foisting it on a public that naively assumed it would be trouble-free based on D*'s reputation alone.

They have created this situation all on their own. They cashed their chips on their previously stellar reputation and have made themselves suspect in the eyes of even their A-list core of subscribers.

Was it worth it? Was it worth sullying what was a near spotless record to get to market 6 months, or even a year sooner with a half-baked product?

I think they will regret it eventually. It's easy to damage a good reputation and far more difficult to recover once you have tarnished your image.

That is MY OPINION. Your own mileage may vary.


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> please throw out the facts that they cut production or supply.... They simply flat out underestimated initial demand in the early months... not a first for any other company


Not even a first for D*. Remember how short in supply the HR10 was at release? Did D* not learn anything from that?


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> Not even a first for D*. Remember how short in supply the HR10 was at release? Did D* not learn anything from that?


I would think they would have, and maybe they did... and it still out beat their estimates...


----------



## 430970 (Nov 21, 2005)

cawgijoe said:


> I think I know what my "problem" is.....this is my first DVR....it has worked and improved each release....has not crashed....I have never owned a DVR previous to this so I don't know what I am missing.
> 
> I like it. Maybe if I owned a DVR previous to this such as a Tivo I would have a much different opinion.


I bet you're right. And if you'd owned multiple generations of DVRs (I've owned the Dishplayer, 1st DirecTivo, R10 and HR10) your bar would be set even higher. Some of it is because you get "used to" the bugs on your current platform. But a lot of it is that switchers rightfully expect the new box to be as stable, faster and have all the core features + some new stuff. Otherwise why switch? Especially now when there are no new national HD channels and you can't even get OTA (yes, I know, this is changing right now). Most reviewers are in the same boat I'm in, or even "worse" (for the HR20) in that they've seen every kind of DVR (I never used a Replay, standalone Tivo, Comcast box or Ultimate TV).

In my opinion I pretty much expect the HR20 to "catch up" to the HR10 in about 3 months time in terms of stability and feature parity. Then, hopefully, it will come out with some great new stuff. Of course, as all the standalone Tivo owners keep reminding me, some of the "new stuff" we expect (Internet Scheduling, music + photos, MRV) isn't even really new 

But that's neither here nor there.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It's been like that since the month the HR20 came out....he and 3-4 other posters here "live" for negative comments and then confrontation.
> 
> Thank goodness for Earl. He tells us the *facts*.


IMO though, what makes them even less credible is how they preface many comments with 'that is all EVERYBODY' wants - like they speak for anyone else besides THEMSELVES. The FACT is there are about 100 different perspectives on this - all INDIVIDUAL, ALL VALID.

Why can't they ever acknowledge that MANY, MANY people are happy with what they have and the continual progress. It seems to make their day when Earl 'acknowledges' that the box wasn't 100% - DUH!


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ScoBuck said:


> The FACT is there are about 100 different perspectives on this - all INDIVIDUAL, ALL VALID.


Actually the perspectives are as infinent as the people that have them.
As in some point in that perspective, they are going to be just the tinest bit different. But the point is the same.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> You need to calm down.
> 
> You come across as extremely negative when it comes to Directv and the HR20 in your posts and responses.
> 
> ...


I'm perfectly calm. You just don't know what you are talking about. But that's fine. Did you or did you not start this thread with an over-the-top statement, saying how "angry" you were about the negative words on TVprediction.com? I never used the word angry. You just don't have a clue what this discussion is all about.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

ScoBuck said:


> IMO though, what makes them even less credible is how they preface many comments with 'that is all EVERYBODY' wants - like they speak for anyone else besides THEMSELVES. The FACT is there are about 100 different perspectives on this - all INDIVIDUAL, ALL VALID.
> 
> Why can't they ever acknowledge that MANY, MANY people are happy with what they have and the continual progress. It seems to make their day when Earl 'acknowledges' that the box wasn't 100% - DUH!


Yes indeed.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

I just read the article *Swanni to DIRECTV: Fix Your HD DVR!* and I have to agree with him. I am not one that needs the approval of others to validate my purchaces, nor do I "support DirecTV" or any company that I pay for service from, they should support me. I have to say based on my experience with the HR20, I would not recommend this product to any of my friends or family at least not yet, I would want to see 4-6 months of stability (functionaly and technical) first. Based on my experience with the HR20 it needs to go back in the oven, cause it is not done yet. IMO I would say D* has done a very poor job with this product, I wish I felt differently, I would prefer it to work, a working product is better for everyone. Sure there have been functional deficiencies like the lack of dual buffers that existed in prior releases of D* DVR products, and OTA has been slow at coming, but IMO thats not the big issues. The problem is lockups, freezes, reboots, unwatchable, partial and unplayable bugs, manual scheduling not working, etc. Who knows what the ratio of user who have had one or all of those issues vs no problems, I guess it doesn't matter what the real numbers are even the advanced support guys at D* will admit that this box has caused them lots of problems and you can just look around here with all the reports of bugs and problems to get the understanding that somthing is not right. The truth of the matter is I have no idea if the next release of code will make this box better or worse, I have seen it go both ways over the past few months. There are many here who like tinkering with a product in flux, you can just look at all of you who rushed to get the pre release code, where there are many like me who didn't and just want a working piece of equipment that I can trust it to just work. If you want a DVR that might not record what you tell it to or might crash or lock up on you, the HR20 is for you, if you crave stability, sadly IMO this product is not there yet, I would have to agree with TVPrediction on this.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

You know what I think? I think you're all as bored at work as I am. I wish I could be home or on vacation like most of my customers but instead I'm trying to look busy at my computer. 

It's fun to get into spirited discussions like these but a lot of this has been said before. If I weren't so bored, I probably wouldn't have said it again. I bet many of you are in the same boat.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I'm perfectly calm. You just don't know what you are talking about. But that's fine. Did you or did you not start this thread with an over-the-top statement, saying how "angry" you were about the negative words on TVprediction.com? I never used the word angry. You just don't have a clue what this discussion is all about.


He simply stated his opinion - right or wrong he is 100% entitled to it. And he made it clear he was speaking for HIMSELF. You made it clear you speak for EVERYONE - but unfortunately, you DON'T.

I respect your opinion but only as YOUR opinion. Your tact is to not acknowledge other valid points - as though you are CORRECT about a topic that HAS NO CORRECT, only varying viewpoints.

You should quite frankly say you are speaking for yourself, and that it is your opinion - because that is ALL it is. And in that vein, I believe you make valid points.

But......... so do people with other thoughts on this.


----------



## ebisads (Dec 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ah well....
> 
> He didn't want to report on OTA being activated...
> He didn't want to report on ViiV being activated...
> ...


you are the pot calling the kettle black, you do the very same things, all defending the giver of free things you get


----------



## ebisads (Dec 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> As hasan pointed out... please throw out the facts that they cut production or supply.... They simply flat out underestimated initial demand in the early months... not a first for any other company (Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Mattel)


WRONG, they purposely make it few avaiable to build up a buzz on the product,

that is basic marketing 101, duh


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

For me, I'm just really happy that Earl changed his avatar from the HR20 light show - boy that display is BRIGHT! :lol:


----------



## ebisads (Dec 8, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It's been like that since the month the HR20 came out....he and 3-4 other posters here "live" for negative comments and then confrontation.
> 
> Thank goodness for Earl. He tells us the *facts*.


earl does not state facts, he states the spin directv tell him to


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Nick said:


> It's natural for people to seek validation for their own choices. When it's not forthcoming, or worse, when their choices are criticized, they tend to become very defensive.


Very true. And you can see it at a much worse level over on the AVS HD-DVD and BluRay forums.


----------



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

I find it interesting that I cannot think of another consumer product other than DBS
IRDs with which purchasers would tolerate such a significant percentage of defects.

Go figure! :shrug:


----------



## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> You know what I think? I think you're all as bored at work as I am. I wish I could be home or on vacation like most of my customers but instead I'm trying to look busy at my computer.
> 
> It's fun to get into spirited discussions like these but a lot of this has been said before. If I weren't so bored, I probably wouldn't have said it again. I bet many of you are in the same boat.


Bored???? How can you say that? The HR20 is going to change the world. You just wait and see. :soapbox: If fact, I think the HR20 is the single most important piece of electronics to come along in 30 years.  I'm telling you- Don't slight this box - All discussion of it could lead to changes that could influence the very nature of reality for years to come.

Merry Christmas - and Holidays.


----------



## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ah well....
> 
> *Besides... it's funny... It is possible that the Baby New year, may have a gift under that big hat of his, that will drastically improve the IKD (Instant Keep or Delete)*


LOL... Pretty soon you are going to run out of holidays then what, no more releases till Valentines day :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

A review is a snapshot; an intersection of the life of the product and the life of the reviewer. The best reviews are not those that say "yea" or "nay", but rather tell me why. I don't always agree with movie critics, but I always read the ones who tell me why (in an entertaining fashion as well...). Then I can make my own informed opinion as to whether or not to expend my resources of time and/or money.

At the point that I put the HR20 first in my system, for me (this is my post), the HR20 was a completely useless product. I still can not rely upon my HR20, mostly because of the bitter taste of losing recordings each time I went on a trip. Since the HR20 lost the default expectations I have for reliabilty, now it has an uphill battle to regain where it should have been from day one--again, these are my expectations and experiences.

Would I recommend the HR20 to an average user? Absolutely not. Would I recommend it to someone who "needed HD now!", and/or was technically savvy and interested in "beta" testing? Quite likely. The HR20 is the future for Directv, but it suffers from its past.

Some disclaimers: I like some things about the Tivo. Mostly I like the reliability it delivered from the moment I got it and continues to deliver now.

I like some things about the HR20. Mostly I like that it seems to be going forward with newness--in the Directv environment. Alas, I don't use it to depend upon watching TV--yet.

Anyway, this is my thoughts on reviews. I appreciate your thoughts and reviews to. Together we inform people far better then any one of us could alone.

Have a Merry Christmas,
Tom


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Blitz68 said:


> LOL... Pretty soon you are going to run out of holidays then what, no more releases till Valentines day :lol:


I am done tying them to "gifts" and holidays, they are simply going to be opportunities to try the release candidates.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> He simply stated his opinion - right or wrong he is 100% entitled to it. And he made it clear he was speaking for HIMSELF. You made it clear you speak for EVERYONE - but unfortunately, you DON'T.
> 
> I respect your opinion but only as YOUR opinion. Your tact is to not acknowledge other valid points - as though you are CORRECT about a topic that HAS NO CORRECT, only varying viewpoints.
> 
> ...


Of course I don't speak for everyone. It was a misstatement, and didn't mean it literally. But there are others who share my disdain for the way D* handled the HR20 release. I'm hardly alone on that front. The guy told me to calm down, when he was the one who claimed to be angry. As you see, the discussion is basically divided into two camps, with some straddling both sides of the issue. So I speak for myself, but some share that view, others don't.

So I am speaking for myself, unless, of course, I decide to invoke my ventriloquism powers.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Nick said:


> I find it interesting that I cannot think of another consumer product other than DBS
> IRDs with which purchasers would tolerate such a significant percentage of defects.
> 
> Go figure! :shrug:


Obviously you weren't a CABLEVISION sub at the very beginning of their iO digital cable launch (I was). The Sony set-top boxes froze and had to be re-booted CONSTANTLY. And those were NOT HD-DVRs they were simply digital IRDS w/access cards - exactly what D* and E* had already been using for YEARS already.


----------



## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I hope... that CNet and other major "blogs", take a second look at the unit in the new year... Maybe at the 6 month point.. "Where is it at, 6 months later"...


6 Month point is what?

February / March


----------



## feldon30 (Dec 10, 2006)

Based on the usage comments I've seen on this forum, even from the HR20's most ardent fans, I will never view it as my primary recorder. I use my 2 DTiVo's for that.

I will set a bunch of HD programs to record. If it manages to record them without screwing up, I'll watch them. If not, I'll watch them in SD in the other room.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Take the personal digs, to PM... not here.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Of course I don't speak for everyone. It was a misstatement, and didn't mean it literally. But there are others who share my disdain for the way D* handled the HR20 release. I'm hardly alone on that front. The guy told me to calm down, when he was the one who claimed to be angry. As you see, the discussion is basically divided into two camps, with some straddling both sides of the issue. So I speak for myself, but some share that view, others don't.
> 
> So I am speaking for myself, unless, of course, I decide to invoke my ventriloquism powers.


Ok - looks like we are making some progress on the tone of conversation - that's good. What I find interesting is that this product was launched in L.A. only, and if you go back to the posts from that time, it was widely discussed here that it was a 'type' of beta launch and so on. But you know what, peeps COULDN'T wait (myself too) to get their hands on one. And its still going on that way. Members read these discussions, they continue to seek out the DVR, and then when they get it they act as if they were wronged. They KNEW FULL WELL IN ADVANCE that there are continual updates and the such - but complain anyway!

I just firmly believe that a very large number of the people that 'share' your view as well as the SAME large number that 'share' my view KNEW this, and STILL decided to get the HR20. To know this, and to still get it, and THEN to complain that it wasn't a 'finished' product is ridiculous from where I sit.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Nick said:


> I find it interesting that I cannot think of another consumer product other than DBS
> IRDs with which purchasers would tolerate such a significant percentage of defects.
> 
> Go figure! :shrug:


Did you ever use a Pocket PC / Windows CE device, or an early Mac laptop?


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

lamontcranston said:


> Did you ever use a Pocket PC / Windows CE device, or an early Mac laptop?


Heck, you can even add cellphones, Blackberry's and other such devices to *that* list.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Ok - looks like we are making some progress on the tone of conversation - that's good. What I find interesting is that this product was launched in L.A. only, and if you go back to the posts from that time, it was widely discussed here that it was a 'type' of beta launch and so on. But you know what, peeps COULDN'T wait (myself too) to get their hands on one. And its still going on that way. Members read these discussions, they continue to seek out the DVR, and then when they get it they act as if they were wronged. They KNEW FULL WELL IN ADVANCE that there are continual updates and the such - but complain anyway!
> 
> I just firmly believe that a very large number of the people that 'share' your view as well as the SAME large number that 'share' my view KNEW this, and STILL decided to get the HR20. To know this, and to still get it, and THEN to complain that it wasn't a 'finished' product is ridiculous from where I sit.


In all honesty, I never visited DBS Talk nor heard from anyone that the HR20 launch would be beta testing environment. Otherwise, I would have shown some restraint, since I already had an H20 and AL9 dish working properly. I would have waited. So I can't speak for anyone else (and I am not a tech geek, but a hobbyist), but that's not true in my case. And again, my main issues have been the BSOD (long gone) and freeze-ups now and again. My HR20 isn't missing recordings, etc., which is way worse in my view. But I never knowingly volunteered to test the machine for D*. It was only when I had a rocky start and Googled "HR20" that I came upon DBS Talk and began to learn about the HR20s many issues.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Que said:


> 6 Month point is what?
> 
> February / March


Yep... Mid February.

But that month is already book to the ears for me...
So mine will probably be a re-look in March.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Reliability - don't even get me started on vertical market software. Nick said "consumer product" but it seems like even the worst consumer product pales in comparison with the some of the vertical market software I've seen. But that's OT. 

I should mention that I got a quick, but professional reply from Mr. Swann, saying that he felt it was his responsibility to recommend against the HR20 if 10% of people were having problems with it. 

Look, this guy is a columnist, that is what he's paid to do. I can't say much because right now I'm not doing what I am paid to do.

I wonder if he's auditing this post right now laughing his heinie off.


----------



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

ScoBuck said:


> Obviously you weren't a CABLEVISION sub at the very beginning...





lamontcranston said:


> Did you ever use a Pocket PC / Windows CE device, or an early Mac laptop?


No, the worst products I ever bought were a gas-guzzling Chevy which I promptly sold, and
the DP which I kept and waited out all the PSODs. It did clear up and was still running well
when I put it out to pasture a year ago.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> In all honesty, I never visited DBS Talk nor heard from anyone that the HR20 launch would be beta testing environment. Otherwise, I would have shown some restraint, since I already had an H20 and AL9 dish working properly. I would have waited. So I can't speak for anyone else (and I am not a tech geek, but a hobbyist), but that's not true in my case. And again, my main issues have been the BSOD (long gone) and freeze-ups now and again. My HR20 isn't missing recordings, etc., which is way worse in my view. But I never knowingly volunteered to test the machine for D*. It was only when I had a rocky start and Googled "HR20" that I came upon DBS Talk and began to learn about the HR20s many issues.


Again, thanks for taking out the rhetoric and 'discussing' it truly works much better that way.

I don't think its that uncommon when a "first generation' of a new product comes out to have some glitches. Yes, their have been DVRs prior, yes there were HD-DVRs prior, yes there was a MPEG4 IRD prior, but this product has a LOT more capabilities (and many still not active). I would rather have it and have it 'grow' IN MY POSSESION than hear all of the WHERE IS IT AND WHEN IS IT COMING OUT.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

lamontcranston said:


> I should mention that I got a quick, but professional reply from Mr. Swann, saying that he felt it was his responsibility to recommend against the HR20 if 10% of people were having problems with it.


Looks like to "counterpoint" responses have started to flood into Swanni....here's one person's response to his original column:

http://www.tvpredictions.com/radike122106.htm


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Ok - looks like we are making some progress on the tone of conversation - that's good. What I find interesting is that this product was launched in L.A. only, and if you go back to the posts from that time, it was widely discussed here that it was a 'type' of beta launch and so on. But you know what, peeps COULDN'T wait (myself too) to get their hands on one. And its still going on that way. Members read these discussions, they continue to seek out the DVR, and then when they get it they act as if they were wronged. They KNEW FULL WELL IN ADVANCE that there are continual updates and the such - but complain anyway!
> 
> I just firmly believe that a very large number of the people that 'share' your view as well as the SAME large number that 'share' my view KNEW this, and STILL decided to get the HR20. To know this, and to still get it, and THEN to complain that it wasn't a 'finished' product is ridiculous from where I sit.


I don't agree with you. I did know that it was pre released in the LA market as a pilot launch, I took that as a good thing thinking that they were being very conservative in their approach by creating a test market first to proof the product. When it became GA I ordered mine and I based that decision on the prior good will D* developed with me over my experience in owning the Sat-T60 as a DVR product. I wrongly made the assumption that the HR20 would be an evolutionary improvement, I did not expect to sacrifice stability and reliability in moving to what I think is a 5th generation DVR product from D*. Sure I expected and knew that the OTA was not ready yet, but that was it. Sadly D* has destroyed all that goodwill, at least for me. The HR20 was not and still is not finished or stable yet, perhaps hubris @ D* caught up with them on this one.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Again, thanks for taking out the rhetoric and 'discussing' it truly works much better that way.
> 
> I don't think its that uncommon when a "first generation' of a new product comes out to have some glitches. Yes, their have been DVRs prior, yes there were HD-DVRs prior, yes there was a MPEG4 IRD prior, but this product has a LOT more capabilities (and many still not active). I would rather have it and have it 'grow' IN MY POSSESION than hear all of the WHERE IS IT AND WHEN IS IT COMING OUT.


You're welcomed. Understand your POV. I was anxious to get it as well, and maybe should have been more research-oriented. But again, D* fumbled this punt, in my view. I expect they will recover (whoever owns them in the next 3-4 months), but this was my first bad experience with them, since I stayed away from the R15. I agree with Wolffpack on this one: They dropped the product well before its time, and not everyone was expecting to test it for them first.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Looks like to "counterpoint" responses have started to flood into Swanni....here's one person's response to his original column:
> 
> http://www.tvpredictions.com/radike122106.htm


I will give TVPredictions.com (and thus Philip Swann) a major thumbs up.

As people accuse me and the other mods here, of "censoring" and controlling what is said.. (which is 100% not the case), they could have done the exact same thing in this case.

So kudos to them, for at least presenting both sides......

Just like we want here.
If this was all one sided... it would be a very boring place.

Constructive discussion is fun.


----------



## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

btmoore said:


> I don't agree with you. I did know that it was pre released in the LA market as a pilot launch, I took that as a good thing thinking that they were being very conservative in their approach by creating a test market first to proof the product. When it became GA I ordered mine and I based that decision on the *prior good will D* developed with me over my experience *in owning the Sat-T60 as a DVR product. I wrongly made the assumption that the HR20 would be an evolutionary improvement, I did not expect to sacrifice stability and reliability in moving to what I think is a 5th generation DVR product from D*. Sure I expected and knew that the OTA was not ready yet, but that was it. Sadly D* has destroyed all that goodwill, at least for me. The HR20 was not and still is not finished or stable yet, perhaps hubris @ D* caught up with them on this one.


I'm with you 100% on this.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

btmoore said:


> I don't agree with you. I did know that it was pre released in the LA market as a pilot launch, I took that as a good thing thinking that they were being very conservative in their approach by creating a test market first to proof the product. When it became GA I ordered mine and I based that decision on the prior good will D* developed with me over my experience in owning the Sat-T60 as a DVR product. I wrongly made the assumption that the HR20 would be an evolutionary improvement, I did not expect to sacrifice stability and reliability in moving to what I think is a 5th generation DVR product from D*. Sure I expected and knew that the OTA was not ready yet, but that was it. Sadly D* has destroyed all that goodwill, at least for me. The HR20 was not and still is not finished or stable yet, perhaps hubris @ D* caught up with them on this one.


And I also agree with BT on this one. This debate will rage on, because clearly people have made their stands and aren't going to move off them.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> This debate will rage on, because clearly people have made their stands and aren't going to move off them.


Oh my goodness....now I agree with *you*. What's going on here !!!


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

CANDY MINT!!

BREATH MINT!!

CANDY MINT!!

BREATH MINT!!

Sorry to those who are too young to know what I'm talking about.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Oh my goodness....now I agree with *you*. What's going on here !!!


I agree with him also, but why not? It's now just an opinion within a discussion, not a I'm right, you're wrong. Sort of makes this place a little kinder and gentler - doesn't it?


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> CANDY MINT!!
> 
> BREATH MINT!!
> 
> ...


Certs of course.......

OR............

Tastes great

Less filling

Tastes great

Less filling

lol


----------



## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

I ordered my HR20 last night to replace my H10-250 AFTER seeing what D* was doing to fix the issues that were brought up.....looks like they are fixing issues as soon as they can...yeah it should have been sooner but nothing is perfect...and the fact that Earl is working with them and us to let us know that they ARE working on future stuff made me comfortable with the switch....as soon as mine gets installed I'll be here waiting for future news...I too think that D* WILL make this box 'sing' eventually....


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> I agree with him also, but why not? It's now just an opinion within a discussion, not a I'm right, you're wrong. Sort of makes this place a little kinder and gentler - doesn't it?


But I, of course, entirely believe the tstarn/BTmoore/Wolffpack axis is the "axis of good" (and the right side), without a doubt.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> But I, of course, entirely believe the tstarn/BTmoore/Wolffpack axis is the "axis of good" (and the right side), without a doubt.


Why start the B.S. again? I (we) know your opinion and point of view. However it is not the 'right side'. There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG SIDE, in fact there are way too many sides.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Why start the B.S. again? I (we) know your opinion and point of view. However it is not the 'right side'. There is NO RIGHT OR WRONG SIDE, in fact there are way too many sides.


Relax, take an aspirin. Of course there is a right and wrong side, that's the entire premise of a debate. Both sides think they are right, otherwise, they would agree.


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

cawgijoe said:


> If you are in the public eye, you need to post both sides. If you experience is bad, say so, but don't think that it's gospal truth and applies to everyone.


You don't read Swann much do you? He is the king of personal agendas. First, he berated D* for the delay and I personally think between him and some WS analysts, D* was forced to release the box before they were ready.

And now he complains about it.

He is an idiot, but can sometimes be useful.:lol:


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Time to get some work done.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Relax, take an aspirin. Of course there is a right and wrong side, that's the entire premise of a debate. Both sides think they are right, otherwise, they would agree.


Ok bud, I'm done with you. For a moment you were getting people on the OTHER sides to at least listen to you, but you seem to not have gotten it. There is not 2 sides (right and wrong) to THIS thread or discussion. Maybe you need to read through it again - there are MANY perspectives.

Not only that, I don't think my opinion is any more right than yours. I am satisfied with what I have and what it does and their rollout - that is the only right that matters (to me). your NOT on that page (and thats the only right that matters to YOU). You know what that means - we are both right (gee what a thought, can you handle it?).


----------



## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Yes, I am overall a supporter of DirecTV (no surprise there for sure). But you say you speak for EVERYBODY right in your first sentence and you DON'T. There are many peeps that know/knew full well that this DVR was going to need and get many firmware revisions and STILL invested in it(money, time, combo, etc.) - I have read a number of posts from members that actually enjoy the opportunity to 'beta' a new technology/product and contribute in a small way to its development. Geez, everyday right in this forum people acknowledge the HR20's plusses and minuses and STILL order it.


I just want to testify that the people you mentioned in the first paragraph do exist. I anticipated the machine to be imperfect but I jumped in anyway. I didn't get mine for free, either. I enjoy being a beta tester, if that is how I am labeled. If HR20 works perfectly, it wouldn't be fun for me to stay around this forum so often.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> You don't read Swann much do you? He is the king of personal agendas. First, he berated D* for the delay and I personally think between him and some WS analysts, D* was forced to release the box before they were ready.
> 
> And now he complains about it.
> 
> He is an idiot, but can sometimes be useful.:lol:


You are right....just discovered him a couple of weeks ago and have been reading his daily headlines....mainly for news.


----------



## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

tstarn said:


> This debate will rage on, because clearly people have made their stands and aren't going to move off them.


Maybe. I was/am a diehard TiVo user. And not because of any of the fluff (Showcases etc.), but because in 6 years from my first SVR-2000 SA to my HR10's, only one program failed to record as requested. (And that was a guide data issue.) That is a pretty good track record.

So when D* debut the R15 and the issues surfaced, I was very anxious about the HR20. So far so good. Do I trust it to be my main DVR. @#!! no! Not yet. But it is getting better and if it continues to do so, then it may make its way alongside my HR10's.

There is a ways to go, but it has come a good ways already. I am willing to give it a chance.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> Ok - looks like we are making some progress on the tone of conversation - that's good. What I find interesting is that this product was launched in L.A. only, and if you go back to the posts from that time, it was widely discussed here that it was a 'type' of beta launch and so on. But you know what, peeps COULDN'T wait (myself too) to get their hands on one. And its still going on that way. Members read these discussions, they continue to seek out the DVR, and then when they get it they act as if they were wronged. They KNEW FULL WELL IN ADVANCE that there are continual updates and the such - but complain anyway!
> 
> I just firmly believe that a very large number of the people that 'share' your view as well as the SAME large number that 'share' my view KNEW this, and STILL decided to get the HR20. To know this, and to still get it, and THEN to complain that it wasn't a 'finished' product is ridiculous from where I sit.


Simply because something is widely discussed here or on other boards doesn't mean it was heard by everyone. Those that called DTV for an HD upgrade since the introduction of the HR20 got a HR20. Those that walked into Walmart, CC or BB purchased a HR20. Those whose HR10 died typically received a HR20 replacement.

Some did jump in with both feet knowing full well what they were getting into. Others, I'd guess the majority of HR20 users, simply got themselves DTV's HD DVR. I've been a DTV customer since '97. Never before the R15 did I feel the need to research equipment I received from DTV (DVRs as well as non-DVRs). I knew everything I've ever gotten from DTV has worked just fine and always was a cut above the reset of the crowd (Dish, Cable....). That is no longer the case. I knew what happened with the R15 and I've chosen to stay away from the HR20 thus far. Just don't assume everyone knew what they were getting into.


----------



## banningview (Dec 13, 2006)

D* exec. #1 - O.K., market penetration for the new Tivo series 3 is going to have a 6-9 month head start on us before the HR20 is ready for use. What is the estimated loss of revenue and market share based on the above assumption.

D*exec #2 - Our estimates show the losses could be in the millions and Tivo could shore up 10-15% maybe more of the market share with their new series 3. Especially with the holiday revenue window wide open for them without a real competitior.

D* exec#3 - What would our costs be if we send the HR20 to market well before it's ready and update it on the way? What would our costs be over the same 6-9 month window.

D* exec #2 - We would lose thousands in subscriber credits and losses to our subscription base, but that doesn't factor in the new subscribers lured in by the promises we could place on the box. They'll be fulfilled of course, we don't want to get sued, but once they have the HR20 in their home, many will keep it regardless of performance due to consumer ignorance. What they don't know won't hurt them. They will be stuck in our web.

Fly on the Wall - Oh, bad analogy...

D* exec #1 - So basically what you are saying is don't release the HR20 and we lose millions and market share, or release the HR20 well before it is ready and shore it up as we go.

D* exec #2 - Sounds like a plan.

D* exec #3 - I concur. I won't use it until June '07, but what do I care, I don't even watch TV.

D* exec #1 - SHIP IT!

O.K. I may have missed a line or two hear and there, but you get the picture.:lol:


----------



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Herdfan said:


> ...He is an idiot, but can sometimes be useful.:lol:


I once dated a woman who was a lot like that...


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Nick said:


> I once dated a woman who was a lot like that...


The one from the picture? Then I would have to question who was the idiot....


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Simply because something is widely discussed here or on other boards doesn't mean it was heard by everyone.


Exactly, DUH!

You have missed the entire point of my post which clearly stated it was about people that were on the board and post complaints anyhow.

The majority of peeps (overwhleming majority) have no clue about any of this - and who (do you for example) have any trustworthy sampling of the level of satisfaction?

My opinion on that - most are very happy. I have friends within DirecTV, they say the complaint rate is low (in fact very low). Regardless of THAT info, my opinion is only that no more no less.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> Maybe. I was/am a diehard TiVo user. And not because of any of the fluff (Showcases etc.), but because in 6 years from my first SVR-2000 SA to my HR10's, only one program failed to record as requested. (And that was a guide data issue.) That is a pretty good track record.
> 
> So when D* debut the R15 and the issues surfaced, I was very anxious about the HR20. So far so good. Do I trust it to be my main DVR. @#!! no! Not yet. But it is getting better and if it continues to do so, then it may make its way alongside my HR10's.
> 
> There is a ways to go, but it has come a good ways already. I am willing to give it a chance.


I think we agree here. I only meant the debate whether or not the HR20 was released prematurely, before it was ready for prime time. Again, if it worked out of the box for the vast majority of users (and it hasn't, otherwise there would not have been 8 software downloads, most of them fixes), I would be happy and the debate would move to a more esoteric level (features, GUI, etc). That's a debate I could care less about. I think it's a good machine, again, when and if it works.

Notice even on this forum, many of the original HR20 discussions/threads were about GUIs, features, etc. But as the box began to fail for enough people, the discussion turned to rants about its lousy performance, missed recordings, etc. No one even argues about Tivo vs. HR20 on the GUI front any more, mainly because that took a back seat to the more pressing concerns - like reliability.

No, I too certainly find much to like about the HR20 if it works. I only wish it had worked as advertised for everyone (save some bad hardware, which happens) from the get-go.


----------



## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I think we agree here. I only meant the debate whether or not the HR20 was released prematurely, before it was ready for prime time. Again, if it worked out of the box for the vast majority of users (and it hasn't, otherwise there would not have been 8 software downloads, most of them fixes)


Again, speak for yourself only - YOU have no evidence other than 100 people (give or take) that have posted. You have NO evidence of satisfaction level from multiple thousands that do NOT post, or visit boards like these. If you feel your OPINION needs to have thousands of people in agreement just to make it valid, first you have to go our and get feedback from those thousands of people. YOU haven't done this - you have no right to discuss the vast majority - and how they feel.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

tstarn said:


> I think we agree here. I only meant the debate whether or not the HR20 was released prematurely, before it was ready for prime time. Again, if it worked out of the box for the vast majority of users (and it hasn't, otherwise there would not have been 8 software downloads, most of them fixes), I would be happy and the debate would move to a more esoteric level (features, GUI, etc). That's a debate I could care less about. I think it's a good machine, again, when and if it works.
> 
> Notice even on this forum, many of the original HR20 discussions/threads were about GUIs, features, etc. But as the box began to fail for enough people, the discussion turned to rants about its lousy performance, missed recordings, etc. No one even argues about Tivo vs. HR20 on the GUI front any more, mainly because that took a back seat to the more pressing concerns - like reliability.
> 
> No, I too certainly find much to like about the HR20 if it works. I only wish it had worked as advertised for everyone (save some bad hardware, which happens) from the get-go.


Again...mine works fine.


----------



## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Thank the Lord, that's all anyone wanted to hear. D* released on unfinished product. Unfortunately, stability/reliability was on the "stuff planned" list, when it should have been on the "stuff included" list of the initial release for public consumption. That's all anyone taking the anti-D* side has said from the beginning. Big future plans aside, it should have worked (for the vast majority of users), it didn't, and it's taken four months, and it still doesn't. Will it next after the next download? Or the next? Or the one after that? Sooner or later, it should.
> 
> D* should get it working as a basic DVR for everyone before they move on to any big plans.


If you think TiVo is the end all be all of stability I suggest you go read the forums ovr at TCF, the S3 has had many issues, the S2s had issues the S1s had issues, updates have created new issues and so on. It's software none of it is perfect and probably never will be. I've had missed shows on my SA Tivos but the history let me know whats going on. Heck I even had to REBOOT it the other day because it had gotten horribly sluggish.


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Man, what a loser.


Earl.....I'm sorry I started this thread.

With the name calling, especially by tstarn, I suggest closure for sanity and bandwidth sake.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ah well... Strike three on the personal digs.

This thread is now closed


----------

