# Rain Fade a Downer for Satellite TV?



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Weather-related reception problems were ranked as the top reason satellite TV users would consider switching from the dish to cable in a new survey from Lyra Research's DTV View group.

How big is the rain fade issue? Said Steve Hoffenberg, principal analyst for the Lyra DTV View report, "Our survey respondents told us that foremost, they just wanted to be able to watch TV, rain or shine. During stormy weather is precisely when viewers are most likely to want to stay indoors and watch TV."

Despite rain fade issues, Hoffenberg said the majority of survey respondents said they were not likely to switch from satellite TV to cable in the next 12 months. "While the satellite industry has not adequately addressed the rain-fade problem, cable providers' ads mentioning the issue haven't convinced satellite users to convert en masse," he said.

The Lyra research drew a response from the industry.

The Satellite Broadcasting and Communications Association said in a statement, "Hundreds of industries, including cable, rely on satellite delivered technology to serve the needs of their consumers. Although there is some potential for rain delay, these problems typically come from a bad installation rather than satellite technology itself. DBS dishes properly installed by a NSTP certified technician should have very few problems."

SBCA also said it's working with DirecTV, EchoStar and VOOM to mandate training and materials which would alleviate a majority of problems.

In a separate statement, EchoStar pointed out that DISH Network continues to outrank - by a wide margin - all cable companies in overall customer satisfaction, as evidenced by the 2004 J.D. Power and Associates study. And the company pointed to Keith Fernandez, a DISH Network customer in Titusville, Fla., who endured more than 50 hours of hurricane storms and never lost DISH Network coverage. "Yet, many cable customers are still without service in hurricane ravaged areas," EchoStar said.

"This survey, with its leading question, downplays the basic attraction of satellite over cable - an attraction that has prompted millions of cable customers to make satellite TV one of the fastest growing services in America in recent years," EchoStar said. "Asking satellite customers why they might switch to cable is like asking Americans why they might move to Siberia. The elicitation of an answer doesn't make the answer a meaningful one."

For DirecTV, signal reliability since inception of its service in 1994 exceeds 99 percent, and rain fade is not an issue for the overwhelming majority of DirecTV's more than 13 million customers.

http://www.skyreport.com (Used with permission)


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

This brings up an issue I have with those who think simple signal acquisition is good enough. To minimize the effects of rain fade, make sure the dish is 'peaked' for maximum signal strength during the aiming process.


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## JerryR (Jun 17, 2004)

I had D* for nine years and can count on two hands the number of times I experienced a signal loss due to rain fade. In reality, the "rain fade" I experienced was more often caused by a huge, thick thundercloud overhead. In any case, the duration was relatively short. For me, this was never a big issue -certainly now where near important enough to cause me to ever want to go back to cable! Ugh! Perish the thought!


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## Redster (Jan 14, 2004)

Nick said:


> This brings up an issue I have with those who think simple signal acquisition is good enough. To minimize the effects of rain fade, make sure the dish is 'peaked' for maximum signal strength during the aiming process.


I have to agree. When I was a directv customer years ago, I installed myself and experienced quite a lot of rain fade. I switched to dish couple years ago and installer has my signal strength pegged at 125 to 127, the only time I get rain fade now is when there are tornados in the area and massive thunderclouds overhead.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

A properly aimed / peaked dish will hold lock clear until the extremes (the above mentioned thunderstorms w/ tornadoes in the area). We get those storms here too - if the weather is THAT bad, I switch to my OTA antenna for news / information.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2004)

Of course, another reason people switch to digital cable is the much better quality picture, and, of course, the many more HD channels offered!!


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## ibglowin (Sep 10, 2002)

Even Cable relies on..... a "Dish" to receive their programming feeds. I have always chuckeled at the fear commercials the Cable guys use talking about how rain fade affects DBS but mysteriously NOT them. Here in the mountains of the SouthWest, I may exerience rain fade once in the Summer during a moonsoon rain that last a few minutes. In the Winter a heavy snow can build up but I mounted my dish close enough to just take a broom and brush it off the couple of times we get a heavy dump each Winter. PQ on Cable still sucks here, mostly analog still. When the Cable goes out, it goes out for the better part of a whole day, not just for a few minutes lasting rain storm.


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## beasst37799 (Mar 8, 2004)

yep the only time i get rain fade is if we have a bad lighting clouds in that part of the sky my sat is looking at . Other then that we love satellite.My parents love it as well especally the music channels. If it wasnt for satellite cable would still have 36 channels for $80 a month :eek2:


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

People HAD to give some type of response and rain fade was the top answer. Not a big story. I don't like rain fade either (who does?), but it happens so rarely that I have no reason to consider switching to cable. Not exactly an eye-opening study.


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## crkeehn (Apr 23, 2002)

and we know that a contractor won't cut the cable or whatever other excuses your local cable company gives you for their regular outages. :lol:


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## jpurkey (May 15, 2003)

A chart showing other reasons for switching can be found here: 
http://www.dtvview.com/dtvview.nsf/switchfromsatellitetocable?OpenPage

Rain fade has never been a serious problem here. Usually if it is storming bad enough to cause rain fade I probably shouldn't have the TV on anyway.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

I haven't experienced any rain fade. I did have a problem with wind where the dish actually dropped a little bit. Not enough to affect reception of most programming, but enough to prevent the reception of the program guide. Since I was about to go on vacation, I ended up having to set my 501 timers manually (not fun). Since then, I have switched from Dish to DirecTV, but not for weather related reasons.

I have had a friend switch from cable to DBS in Marysville, CA. They took my advice and get a triple LNB dish. They have had it since August, and lost their signal only due to a very heavy rainstorm. Are they going back to cable? Nope, they're thanking me for my advice, and are now DIY addicts.

No, the big problems have been a technical mixup that affect their satellites (see the archives) and [thread=34328]bad reception at the pop for the Sacramento UPN and WB affiliates on DirecTV[/thread]. Then there was the irritating "Acquiring Program Data" that affected the DirecTiVos for several months until DirecTV came up with a bugfix. But, I am not going back to Comcast. I love my PVR too much.


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## red hazard (Apr 11, 2004)

Ku-band (and Ka-band) are unfortunately susceptible to rain fade which is cause when the rain intensity or rain rate reaches a point that the S/C ratio is no longer sufficient for the demod and error correction circuitry to decode the signal satisfactorily. Fortunately, the rain rate necessary in most locations is caused by intense thunderstorms that pass on through the area allowing the signal to return. When cable gets cut the disruption lasts hours and sometimes longer. It's doubtful that rain fade will cause defections to CATV.

Regarding a comment that the cable heads get their signal from satellite too, it should be pointed out that they use C-band which is essentially immune to rain fade. 

Peaking the signal of course will help as will a larger dish. High quality coax (less loss) and short cable runs from the LNBF also help. However, when the rain rate reaches the point where the signal is down near the noise threshold, even a 10 meter dish won't help.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2004)

*sigh* again a bias article. Comcast will survive and can win out over cable. The day when are losing money, they will change marketing methods and increase quality. Same as with Charlie, as soon as he is losing money, he will change methods, too.


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## Zach2 (May 18, 2003)

Rain fade is the biggest problem in Alaska, seems like every day almost this time a year I lose channels. Right now its raining and only our locals are coming in.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Zach said:


> Rain fade is the biggest problem in Alaska, seems like every day almost this time a year I lose channels. Right now its raining and only our locals are coming in.


Your "look" angle is so oblique that the signal travels through a lot more "atmosphere" to reach your dish. You can go to a larger dish or tweak your existing dish for peak SS.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2004)

Mark Holtz said:


> I haven't experienced any rain fade.


I have, but very infrequently. I had far more frequent and longer-lasting outages back when I had cable. That was one of the reasons I switched to, and am sticking with, satellite TV!


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

There are the solar outages as well, every spring and fall. Certainly not enough to make me switch back to cable.


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## the_bear (Oct 18, 2004)

I frequently have to sweep the snow off my dish with a broom. My wife suggested spaying the dish with Pam so the snow would just slide off. I have not, nor plan to, try this. One of the local installers here has been trying to start a company to produce dish heaters. They would heat the dish just enough for the snow to slide off. Look for these heaters on the web sometime in the future.


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## red hazard (Apr 11, 2004)

djlong said:


> There are the solar outages as well, every spring and fall. Certainly not enough to make me switch back to cable.


Other than local stations, cable's programming comes from C-band satellite which is also affected by solar conjunctions.


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## gglockner (Mar 25, 2004)

Outages are basically a non-issue for hardcore DVR users like myself. There are very few programs I absolutely must watch. As for the rest, if I miss one episode due to rain fade, I can always watch something else previously recorded.


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## stonecold (Feb 20, 2004)

Had dish for 5 years.

can count rain fade on one hand.

Also I got hit by 3 hurricanes this year. Charlie Frances, Jeane

Did not loose service one even doing the high winds and heavy rains. 

A. because I have A large clear southern sky view. 
B. Excellence install by the intaller and for the other dish that I have done proper grounding and wiring. good calbing and good crimps .

Most oeple down here that complain about satellite who have it I have found there problem. poorly pointed dish. or pist poor cabling job.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2004)

maybe others do this i don't know, but i've never ran across anyone else that does. This tip is only for dishes that are skewed - DISH500, SuperDISH, DIRECTV Triple LNB Dish.

Example: DISH 500

The polar mounts for DISH 500 fresh out of the box are always set at 90 for the skew. This means that if the mast is perfectly plumb on all sides, the dish will be perfectly level as well. (To see for yourself, get a level and lay it on the arm.)

Now, more often than not, the mast isn't always going to be level. We may think it's level. But depending on how the mast gets seated on the roof or wall after mounting it can get altered.

Say you are in Seattle. Skew for this town is 83. With the dish still set at 90 start to aim your dish. When you are beeping on 119 you now know (obviously) the exact direction the dish will stay. Throw your level on the arm of the dish. If it shows the bubble perfectly centered you are money! Set the skew at 83, peak the dish the rest of the way, fine tune, etc... and you are set. If the level is off, gently loosen the skew, rotate the dish until the level is perfect, regardless of the skew reading. When the level is perfectly centered, now look at the skew setting. If it says 93, then you need to set the skew at 86. This would technically be 83. Do you follow?

If the reading is 88, then you need to skew at 81. get it? 

It is the most accurate way to compensate. A lot of techs just eyeball it, but it's not good enough for us perfectionists. You will of course apply the correct difference with the numbers based on your location. I'm just using Seattle as an example.

Since doing this, signal on the 301s, 311s, 510s etc... everything is well over 100, both 119 and 110. 522s and 322s register lower, as well as 811, and legacy gear with older software. Average peak with 522/322 is 100 on 119, 95 on 110, which is the equivalent of 115-120 on the 301s, 311s, etc...

Interestingly enough, the 522s and 322s will go out below 40 just like all the other receivers. so those that have 300 or 500 series receivers other than 522/322 pretty much have a 20 point edge.

Other locations across the country bring different readings i'm sure.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Perhaps actually FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS is not in your experience?


Power of 5 said:


> Now, more often than not, the mast isn't always going to be level.


It is if the installer is doing their job! One is supposed to mount the arm so the top IS perfectly level. Break that rule and you will have to fudge in ways your post describes. Follow the rule and the skew instructions work.



Power of 5 said:


> With the dish still set at 90 start to aim your dish. When you are beeping on 119 you now know (obviously) the exact direction the dish will stay.


Not really. You will be close - closer in areas where the skew is close to 90 - but the more your manual skew is away from 90 the further that LNB head is away from the point where 90 degree skew would place it.

My skew is 118 on Dish 500. The dish also has to be turned on azimuth and elevation to get to the real "exact position the dish will stay". Which is a lot of fudging when the manual has clear directions that work.

You may have to fudge on a difficult install (eg: shooting out from under an overhang that you can't get past). But I wouldn't make it a habit.

JL


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