# Moving Challenges: Two 921s, a 501 and a... 1000?!



## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

Going through the most bizarre transition in my life... I recently sold my house in San Francisco to move to rural-ish New York. The buyer fell in love with my home theaters and insisted on buying my televisions, dishes, and antennas... keeping Dish Network going... Hey, what am I going to say? Cha-ching. I clung to my Dish receivers though, he could pry them from my dead fingers!

So now I'm in limbo moving to New York, when my 2nd 921 arrives in the mail. I'm excited to get this all working, though I'm missing a few pieces. I'm moving out of a house I completely customized with my own wiring to a house with some else's idea of wiring (lame-ass), clearly designed for bad analog cable. (I'm moving to the sticks.) The following challenges remain unsolved...I'd love some feedback.

Challenge Number One: Dish DVR and Lame Ass Wiring

Ok, so planning on my two 921s, a 501 and a 1000, the first problem I run into is the single RG-59 cable running to each of the rooms in question. Crap! I hope the RG-59 doesn't make everything suck. Also, a single feed? That's problematic. Like a superhero, Dish releases the DP+44 switch, which solves my multi-tuner issue with the two 921s over a single cable. But will it work with this crappy RG-59? Secondly, oh no, forgot about the antenna. Anybody know if I can use BOTH a duplex splitter for an antenna signal AND a DishProPlus separator?!!?

Challenge Number Two: Home Owners Associations

The first thing I did upon my arrival was install the dishes. I called Dish, asked them about SuperDish/etc...they insist I still need two Dishes if I want my locals. Can anyone validate this? Since I use HD, I assume I can get most of that stuff on 110, right!? Technically, the HOA won't allow antennas. Anyone have any experiences with attic-based long-range antennas? I'm about 75 miles north of Manhattan so I assume I'm screwed, and the OTA problems on the 921 isn't making me feel warm and fuzzy.

Challenge Number Three: Crusty Old Model 1000

Ok folks, don't laugh, but I keep my old model 1000 working still. It's great for a kid's television. Though now that I have two 921s, I'm thinking of donating the 501 to recording PBS Kids stuff. The question is: Will my model 1000 work with this DishProPlus 44 switch and DishPro LNBFs, or am I screwed there as well? If it does, it may just last another day... (I'm hoping to show it on Antiques Roadshow one of these days.)

Challenge Number Four: Plugging them in....

Out the DVI port on the back of a 921 and across the river and through the woods... That is what it feels like. Anybody have any experience testing how far or long a DVI cable plugged into one of these 921 units can be before it barfs out? I have looked for a specification and can't find one. What's the longest you guys have gone out there? Tell me your horror stories! I need to know because the awkward locations of my vapor-televisions will probably need to have the horridly loud 921 units located in nearby closets.

Well I have a lot of work to do. I ordered my DP+44 switch and separators yesterday, stocked up on F-connectors, and broke out the old bookmarks for television reviews. Any feedback would be appreciated, wish me luck...

-j


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Answer #1 - Take the 921 and 501 and put them where the cables come into the house and then run the outputs through the house wiring and use the UHF remotes. That is what I dd since I have the same problem. As for the Dipelexors, I haven't actaully gotten a clear answer yet. I have run into issues with 322s and diplexors with straight DP. Had to remove the diplexor to properly run the switch test on the line with the diplexor.

Answer #2 - Try a dish mounted attenna. Also check with the SBCA and the FCC to see if the HMA can actually stop you from having an antenna. As long as it is not directly visible from the main street, I don't see how they could stop you. I HATE HMAs.

Answer #3 - Yes, the DP+44 can be used with the 1000s(as long as they can detect the switch in the software. Now, I don't know if it can use all the sats though). The DP+ switches can detect and properly work with legacy equip without an adapter. Something they should have done from the start.

Answer #4 - No clue. Good luck.


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

Larry,

Some thoughts below.



larrystotler said:


> Answer #1 - Take the 921 and 501 and put them where the cables come into the house and then run the outputs through the house wiring and use the UHF remotes. That is what I dd since I have the same problem. As for the Dipelexors, I haven't actaully gotten a clear answer yet. I have run into issues with 322s and diplexors with straight DP. Had to remove the diplexor to properly run the switch test on the line with the diplexor.


This would work fine for running singal over RF, but since my outputs from the receivers are either DVI or s-video, I'm not sure if that helps... It would be easier for me to run RG-6 than DVI or s-video (and cheaper) to the television locations, I suspect. Are you using RF-based or running video cables? One other option, though I haven't tried it: There are now DVI and s-video over CAT-5 gizmos. Still, I'd need to run a cable, and it may not make sense.



larrystotler said:


> Answer #2 - Try a dish mounted attenna. Also check with the SBCA and the FCC to see if the HMA can actually stop you from having an antenna. As long as it is not directly visible from the main street, I don't see how they could stop you. I HATE HMAs.


Yes, this is a problem I can solve... I did hear the operations person from the HOA say that "visability from the front is the issue." When I put the dishes on, I needed to put them on the top of the highest chimney because of the high tree cover to the southwest. I haven't tested it yet (obviously) but at least I can't see the dishes from the front. I'd use a dish-mounted antenna or one of those "SquareShooters" if I could find someone with any experiences with my distance category. When I type my address into antennaweb.org it doesn't even bother with any digital stations. I might be pushing my luck.



larrystotler said:


> Answer #3 - Yes, the DP+44 can be used with the 1000s(as long as they can detect the switch in the software. Now, I don't know if it can use all the sats though). The DP+ switches can detect and properly work with legacy equip without an adapter. Something they should have done from the start.
> 
> Answer #4 - No clue. Good luck.


Thanks. I'll do my best. (Help!)


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

jsa_usenet said:


> Larry,
> Some thoughts below.
> This would work fine for running singal over RF, but since my outputs from the receivers are either DVI or s-video, I'm not sure if that helps... It would be easier for me to run RG-6 than DVI or s-video (and cheaper) to the television locations, I suspect. Are you using RF-based or running video cables? One other option, though I haven't tried it: There are now DVI and s-video over CAT-5 gizmos. Still, I'd need to run a cable, and it may not make sense.
> Yes, this is a problem I can solve... I did hear the operations person from the HOA say that "visability from the front is the issue." When I put the dishes on, I needed to put them on the top of the highest chimney because of the high tree cover to the southwest. I haven't tested it yet (obviously) but at least I can't see the dishes from the front. I'd use a dish-mounted antenna or one of those "SquareShooters" if I could find someone with any experiences with my distance category. When I type my address into antennaweb.org it doesn't even bother with any digital stations. I might be pushing my luck.
> Thanks. I'll do my best. (Help!)


I just realized that you have 2 921s. Exactly what is your setup. You need 6 runs, correct?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

J - at 75 miles, you're going to need the biggest antenna you can get your hands on to have any chance at all of pulling in OTA, along with a good mast mounted pre-amp. The antenna is not going to be small. But, fortunately for you, the FCC has overridden all HOA rules and you are allowed to put up an antenna on your property where ever it is necessary to receive the signals. You will win if the HOA fights you over it, but it may end up being a fight. I don't have the FCC links off the top of me head, but they shouldn't be too hard to find - lots of people over at AVS have them in their signatures that I've seen.


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## stonecold (Feb 20, 2004)

I find it still to be the best to keep Dish Pro equipment separated from legacy for the few legacy recivers i do have I ran a legacy d500 dish and sw64 switch.


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

To respond to all of you:



larrystotler said:


> I just realized that you have 2 921s. Exactly what is your setup. You need 6 runs, correct?


Well, now I will have 119, 110 and 61.5 coming into a DP+44. Out of the DP+44, I will have one cable (hopefully the existing RG59 won't be a problem) going to one 921, one cable going to the second 921, one going to the 501, and one going to the 1000 (though I may just nix that one). With DishProPlus, I shouldn't need six runs from the sat, only 3. I'm fearing that RG59... after I spent so much time running two RG6's to each room of my last house, this royally bites to be force-fed RG59. Secondly, I have no idea how inserting an antenna diplexor into the mix would screw things up with the DishProPlus seperator at the same time.



Mark Lamutt said:


> J - at 75 miles, you're going to need the biggest antenna you can get your hands on to have any chance at all of pulling in OTA, along with a good mast mounted pre-amp. The antenna is not going to be small. But, fortunately for you, the FCC has overridden all HOA rules and you are allowed to put up an antenna on your property where ever it is necessary to receive the signals. You will win if the HOA fights you over it, but it may end up being a fight. I don't have the FCC links off the top of me head, but they shouldn't be too hard to find - lots of people over at AVS have them in their signatures that I've seen.


I could pick a fight... though I'm surprised to hear those monstrous antennas that go in your attic wouldn't be precisely what I needed. You're saying a clear, unobstructed external is what will be necessary... This may not work at all, in or out, so it may not be worth it.



stonecold said:


> I find it still to be the best to keep Dish Pro equipment separated from legacy for the few legacy recivers i do have I ran a legacy d500 dish and sw64 switch.


Well if the only non-DishPro device is the 1000, i'll just nix or upgrade it.

This is all helpful info guys...


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

I'm surprised that no one has jumped on this yet.

RG-59 is NOT suitable for even regular satellite feeds - let alone DishPro which goes all the way to 2150MHz. Even older RG-6 is problematic. I have used RG-59 for short (6-12") jumpers without issue, but there's just too much loss to use it for much else.

As for your diplexers, they should work IF they are in the 'right' positions, which is 'inside' everything else. YMMV.

DPP44 ---> Power Inserter ---> Diplexer ---> Diplexer ---> Separator ---> Receiver

Regarding SuperDish vs. Locals - SuperDish is for 110/119 & 105 or 121. If your locals are not there (ie. on 61.5 or 148), then you must have a second dish.


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

I figured. I've only run quad-shied RG6 when I've run my own cabling. Running cabling in this house will be challenging. Maybe I can somehow tie an RG6 cable to the RG59 and yank it through.

Or two cables... Now i'm getting overly optomistic.

One thing though: You mention this "power inserter." What power inserter? I don't believe there is one where the DPP44 is concerned.

-Jay



SimpleSimon said:


> I'm surprised that no one has jumped on this yet.
> 
> RG-59 is NOT suitable for even regular satellite feeds - let alone DishPro which goes all the way to 2150MHz. Even older RG-6 is problematic. I have used RG-59 for short (6-12") jumpers without issue, but there's just too much loss to use it for much else.
> 
> ...


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

jsa_usenet said:


> I figured. I've only run quad-shied RG6 when I've run my own cabling. Running cabling in this house will be challenging. Maybe I can somehow tie an RG6 cable to the RG59 and yank it through.
> 
> Or two cables... Now i'm getting overly optomistic.
> 
> ...


The DP+44 has a power inserter on port 1 just like a SW44/SW64. DIsh claims that the new DP stuff has enough juice to run 3 sat without power insertion, but not 4. As for fishing new lines, good luck. Most wiring is stapled to a stud and can't be pulled on. You'll have to drop new lines, posisbly in the same hole. And, like I said, the 1000 SHOUDL work with the DP+44, but it may only see 3 sats. You'll have to check with dish, or someone who has done it. And quad sheild is mostly overkill, and more of a pain to work with.


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

SimpleSimon said:


> RG-59 is NOT suitable for even regular satellite feeds - let alone DishPro which goes all the way to 2150MHz. Even older RG-6 is problematic. I have used RG-59 for short (6-12") jumpers without issue, but there's just too much loss to use it for much else


I have Quad Legacy LNBFs running over RG59 runs of 150' with absolutely no problem.

I will find out this weekend whether it works for DishPro.

Cheers,
-Keith


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> J - at 75 miles, you're going to need the biggest antenna you can get your hands on to have any chance at all of pulling in OTA, along with a good mast mounted pre-amp. The antenna is not going to be small. But, fortunately for you, the FCC has overridden all HOA rules and you are allowed to put up an antenna on your property where ever it is necessary to receive the signals. You will win if the HOA fights you over it, but it may end up being a fight. I don't have the FCC links off the top of me head, but they shouldn't be too hard to find - lots of people over at AVS have them in their signatures that I've seen.


The appropriate link is in my sig.. I use it EVERYWHERE that talk comes to HOA's and antennas.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

keitheva said:


> I have Quad Legacy LNBFs running over RG59 runs of 150' with absolutely no problem.
> 
> I will find out this weekend whether it works for DishPro.
> 
> ...


Yes, it will work on RG59 with Legacy. The reason is that you are constantly switching between 13 and 18 volts. DishPro uses a 19.6 Volt setup(which is actually about 20-21), and it's a constant voltage. Also, with Legacy, as long as the voltage doesn't drop below 15.7 volts, it will send back an even trans. 15.6 or lower will get you an odd. So, you probably have loss on the line, but it is not a problem. DP will burn the white insulator out eventually(some RG59 is better than others). Might take a while, but it's not a good idea to use it. When I run into RG59, I install legacy.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Larry - BS on the "higher voltage burning out the white insulation" - urban legend. 19.6 V DC isn't that much more than 18 V. The ONLY reason to use RG6 over RG59 is that the RG6 has less loss over a given distance (because there is more metal for the signal to go through)


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

larrystotler said:


> DIsh claims that the new DP stuff has enough juice to run 3 sat without power insertion, but not 4.


Does this mean with a DP Twin LNB and nothing else I don't need to bother with the power inserter on the DPP44?

Thanks,
-Keith


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

I'll know soon if the RG59 works at all with the DPP setup. I will run new RG6 eventually...what a pain. Why some doofus ran RG59 here I have no idea. Cheaper I guess.



scooper said:


> Larry - BS on the "higher voltage burning out the white insulation" - urban legend. 19.6 V DC isn't that much more than 18 V. The ONLY reason to use RG6 over RG59 is that the RG6 has less loss over a given distance (because there is more metal for the signal to go through)


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

keitheva said:


> Does this mean with a DP Twin LNB and nothing else I don't need to bother with the power inserter on the DPP44?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Keith


Keith: I think in general, you'll be better off doing the OPPOSITE of whatever LS says.

Just patch the inserter onto the cable at the back of whatever receiver's on Port 1 and be done with it.


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

In my previous SW64 setup, I put the power inserters near the switches. I figured since I had the switches mounted on a backboard, why not put the inserters there, easy access to power, with short patches...

It worked fine, but now I'm curious again: Any reason NOT to put the inserters near the switches instead of at the receivers? I understand if your switch is outdoors, but...



SimpleSimon said:


> Keith: I think in general, you'll be better off doing the OPPOSITE of whatever LS says.
> 
> Just patch the inserter onto the cable at the back of whatever receiver's on Port 1 and be done with it.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

scooper said:


> Larry - BS on the "higher voltage burning out the white insulation" - urban legend. 19.6 V DC isn't that much more than 18 V. The ONLY reason to use RG6 over RG59 is that the RG6 has less loss over a given distance (because there is more metal for the signal to go through)


And the fact that RG59 is not swept tested to the higher freqs will not cause a problem? I have run DP with older RG6 that was rated to 1450Mhz without any problem, but I have seen RG59 turn black from being used with a DP setup. Like I said, it all depends upon the quaility of the wire. If it's a better RG59, then it will probably work. If it's real cheap stuff, you could end up with a problem. And if Dish QAs an install and finds RG59, they will fail the install.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

keitheva said:


> Does this mean with a DP Twin LNB and nothing else I don't need to bother with the power inserter on the DPP44?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Keith


No. Let me clarify: Dish Pro can power a total of 3 sats with whatever switches are needed without power insertion. When you add in a fourth location, you will need a power insterter. A DP34 connected to a DP Twin will not need insertion, but a DP+44 with a DP Twin will need a power insterter to run the swicth. This came direct from the engineers at Dish during last augusts conference in baltimore, md.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

jsa_usenet said:


> In my previous SW64 setup, I put the power inserters near the switches. I figured since I had the switches mounted on a backboard, why not put the inserters there, easy access to power, with short patches...
> 
> It worked fine, but now I'm curious again: Any reason NOT to put the inserters near the switches instead of at the receivers? I understand if your switch is outdoors, but...


The power inserter is to be installed on the line that runs to port 1 of the switch between the receiver and the switch. If the insterter becomes unplugged, you won't get a signal since the switch doesn't have enough power. an SW64 inserter supplies about 28Volts to the switch(readout from my digisat 3).


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

Well, yes, I get that, what I'm asking is whether it matters where in the line it is located. I'm assuming the answer is it doesn't, so I've put it close to the switch.

For the record: First line I've tested with RG59 has worked. It could flake out, and if it ever does, I'll just replace it.



larrystotler said:


> The power inserter is to be installed on the line that runs to port 1 of the switch between the receiver and the switch. If the insterter becomes unplugged, you won't get a signal since the switch doesn't have enough power. an SW64 inserter supplies about 28Volts to the switch(readout from my digisat 3).


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

jsa_usenet said:


> In my previous SW64 setup, I put the power inserters near the switches. I figured since I had the switches mounted on a backboard, why not put the inserters there, easy access to power, with short patches...
> 
> It worked fine, but now I'm curious again: Any reason NOT to put the inserters near the switches instead of at the receivers? I understand if your switch is outdoors, but...


You're fine with the inserter whereever it's convienent (as long as diplexers are not involved - if they are a touch of thought is required).

Right up next to the switch itself is a wonderful place.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

jsa_usenet said:


> Well, yes, I get that, what I'm asking is whether it matters where in the line it is located. I'm assuming the answer is it doesn't, so I've put it close to the switch.
> 
> For the record: First line I've tested with RG59 has worked. It could flake out, and if it ever does, I'll just replace it.


Preferably inside.  Sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking. As far as I know, it can be anywhere along the line. I would definately make sure that the line with the inserter is an RG6 cable because of the higher voltage. I'm not sure what the DP+44's is, but the old SW64s used 28V, so I'd say it's probably close to that.


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

Good point, that location is *much* easier to control.

The current plan is this:

119 (Twin) 110 (Twin) 61.5 (Dual)

to

DP+44 inputs 1,2,3

to

Output #1: 1 ft. RG6 to Power Inserter to RG59 to location A
Output #2: Direct RG59 to location B
Output #3: Direct RG59 to location C
Output #4: Direct RG6 to location D (Cable is close by and direct shot)

to

Location A: 501 Receiver
Location B: 1000 Receiver
Location C: DishProPlus Separator to Inputs #1 and #2 of 921 Receiver
Location D: DishProPlus Separator to Inputs #1 and #2 of 921 Receiver

I checked the over-the-air options, and unless I have a roof antenna
with basically the same specifications as the shield generator for the 
Endor moon, I'll only have two dorky local digital stations for OTA, so
I'll have to skip OTA for now (which means no diplexers...yet).

Anybody see any problems with the above layout?



larrystotler said:


> Preferably inside.  Sorry, I misunderstood what you were asking. As far as I know, it can be anywhere along the line. I would definately make sure that the line with the inserter is an RG6 cable because of the higher voltage. I'm not sure what the DP+44's is, but the old SW64s used 28V, so I'd say it's probably close to that.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Other than the RG-59, it looks right. Remember - if you start losing even transponders on the 501 or 1000 boxes, or the #2 tuner on the 921, you gotta rip the -59 out.


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

Got it. So far so good in the 501, the RG-59 hasn't failed yet. Running two feeds over on RG-59 with a DP+ separator, though... that's the real test.



SimpleSimon said:


> Other than the RG-59, it looks right. Remember - if you start losing even transponders on the 501 or 1000 boxes, or the #2 tuner on the 921, you gotta rip the -59 out.


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## keitheva (Aug 23, 2002)

jsa_usenet said:


> Running two feeds over on RG-59 with a DP+ separator, though... that's the real test.


Alas, it didn't work for me. When I had the separator at the 921 end, I only got signals on 1 tuner. When I moved the separator to the DPP44 end, it worked fine. Problem is, I still needed 2 cables from the basement where the switch is to the 921. On the plus side, I am now only taking one switch feed for the 921, so I can run 3 other rcvrs.

I guess the stacked channels on RG59 was too much (I am talking about a 150' run though).

Cheers,
-Keith


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## jsa_usenet (Oct 7, 2003)

Keith,

I had the same problem, though with RG6. I switched the single feed to port 2 on the DPP44 and the separator worked with the 921!

In my house I have some RG59 feeds installed by the previous owner and some new ones I have already run. The 921 happens to be on the other side of an RG6. However, I will be using a RG59 to another room to a second 921 and a separator and I'll let you know how that goes... it may be a few weeks.

-Jay



keitheva said:


> Alas, it didn't work for me. When I had the separator at the 921 end, I only got signals on 1 tuner. When I moved the separator to the DPP44 end, it worked fine. Problem is, I still needed 2 cables from the basement where the switch is to the 921. On the plus side, I am now only taking one switch feed for the 921, so I can run 3 other rcvrs.
> 
> I guess the stacked channels on RG59 was too much (I am talking about a 150' run though).
> 
> ...


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