# What will happen in 2/2009?



## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

Near the end of "Charlie Chat" last night a comment was made about the switch to digital broadcast in 2/2009 and a light bulb went off for me. What will happen if Dish doesn't offer local digital (HD) by 2/2009 in my area? Also, is it true that the satellite providers need to reach an agreement with each local network before they can offer it to their customers? I think I've read there are some localities that receive all locals except Wxxx because an agreement has not been reached.

It seems to me there is a possibility that come 2/2009 I had better hope that:

1. Dish will be offering ALL locals in HD (digital), or
2. I can pick up locals OTA, or

Any comment?

P.S. This may have been answered somewhere else, but I've not seen it. Also, I live in RMA 68 and do not get locals in HD at this time


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## Gilitar (Aug 1, 2004)

I believe all they would need to do is recieve the local HD and then downres it to SD.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

About this time NEXT year, we will have a better idea of what all that meant.
In the mean time, we can speculate all we like.


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

Gilitar said:


> I believe all they would need to do is recieve the local HD and then downres it to SD.


I had that as a 3rd idea but somehow it didn't make since to me so I removed it. Guess I might have been right.


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## pvcleave (Mar 20, 2007)

Remember just because something is digital does not mean it is HD. All Dish channels are sent digitally, but they are not all HD. So they can offer your channels digitally without being in HD. The big question for Dish is, how they will get the signal. They currently receive signals both digitally and analog.


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## benn5325 (Mar 16, 2004)

Digital TV is not HDTV. The Feb 09 switch. That is only switching from analog to digital transmittion. I believe E* & D* are 100% digital right now. but I could be wrong.


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

Hey guys, I know all about digital, HD, analog, etc. 

What I'm saying is that my locals from Dish are coming from the analog transmission of my various local networks. When they stop broadcasting those analog signals that Dish is using, what happens then? See what I mean?

Please go back and read my original post. If it's not clear, which is possible, jump back in and I'll try to do better.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Look - all Dish and Direct have to do (if, in fact, they ARE getting your locals OTA) is to put up an ATSC receiver for each channel, downrez to SD 480i, then feed that into their current feed for that station. Nothing to it.

What WILL take more time is getting the legal permission to do it. 

On the larger markets - a number of them are doing direct fiber feeds to their POP already. These are even less effort to change out.


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## Manke (Dec 27, 2005)

jgurley said:


> Near the end of "Charlie Chat" last night a comment was made about the switch to digital broadcast in 2/2009 and a light bulb went off for me. What will happen if Dish doesn't offer local digital (HD) by 2/2009 in my area? Also, is it true that the satellite providers need to reach an agreement with each local network before they can offer it to their customers? I think I've read there are some localities that receive all locals except Wxxx because an agreement has not been reached.
> 
> It seems to me there is a possibility that come 2/2009 I had better hope that:
> 
> ...


ITS DIGITAL TV NOT HDTV and SAT TV IS ALREADY DIGITAL.


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

Manke, that's exactly my point, and you don't have to yell !!

For those of us who now receive locals from Dish which not HD but SD, then the origin of that local broadcast is our local network's analog, SD signal. My question was what happens when the local networks stop their analog broadcast?

I know that all analog broadcasts are SD. I also know that digital broadcast can either be SD or HD, but its still a digital signal and at last count Dish is offering digital HD locals in only 33 markets.

That's 33 out of 210 in the U.S. and 6 in Canada. What happens in those 183 markets (assuming Dish won't expand HD into more markets...and I hope that's certainly not going to be the case) when all those local networks, in all those smaller markets, stop analog broadcasting? 

It's taking some time for both Dish and Direct to expand HD (digital source) service and we're only 14 months away from 2/09. I doubt if either satellite provider will be able to offer digital (some HD, some SD) service to all those markets by then.

Please be nice. I'm just a dumb Southerner who doesn't have crap for brains and just happens to talk a bit too slow for the rest of the country, especially those from the left coast


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## benn5325 (Mar 16, 2004)

Well, DTV can be as low as 480i. So it really won't be a big deal for either company if your station changes their transmittion to that.
There are supposed to be new birds going up next year anyway so I don't think there's anything to worry about anyway.


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## aloishus27 (Aug 8, 2006)

Here's a question. How many of the SD feeds is Dish receiving digitally now?


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## benn5325 (Mar 16, 2004)

Well, all of the SD cable channels. HBO, FOX, FX, etc, etc.
The only analog ones would be locals


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## ssmith10pn (Jul 6, 2005)

Since an expert hasn't stepped in yet I'll bet you a dollar to a dough nut that Dish receives ZERO local channels via transmission on analog UHF or VHF.

Either the locals are up linking via satellite or linking via T1 or Fiber to an up link center.


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## jericho (May 29, 2002)

I noticed the other night that my NBC Oklahoma City SD locals are getting the digital feed with the sides cut off. (you can see the edge of the HD logo in the corner) This is really bad if Dish decides to do this nationwide. Correct analog 4:3 feeds use a pan and scan presentation so there aren't heads cut off and such. But what Dish is doing is taking the widescreen from the digital feed and simply cutting off the sides for SD. What Dish needs to do is letterbox the digital feed for the SD locals.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

From what I read and heard last night on the chat, DISH and DIRECTv will both send techs to each and every dma that they already carry in sd and put up antennas to receive the digital signals of the same sd locals that they both already carry. This will take many months to accomplish and they must start now if they want to get it done by 2/09. The problem is many of the stations do not have a digital signal yet and as such they can't offer anything for DISH or DIRECTV to broadcast . Both sat companies have requested that the government , I think the FCC , set a deadline that all stations must have a digital signal or channel to use for the satellite companies to broadcast their signal. Both companies have stated that if they don't get the deadline that they requested that they may not be ready for all dmas to receive their digital versions of their locals channels in time for the deadline/turn off of analog channels, 2/09. This could mean that certain channels will go dark if they don't get their digital signal up and running soon. 

The channels don't have to be in HD , just 480i . I am betting that DISH will have 100 dmas in HD by the end of next year as Charlie said that they would last night during the chat. The rest of the dmas will be in digital , & they will most likely downconvert the channels to 480i.

I hope that explains it to you better.


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## jericho (May 29, 2002)

But...will they simply chop off the sides of a digital channel's widescreen format, or letterbox it? The recent switch of OKC NBC SD to the digital feed makes me think they are already switching some locals and they don't care about a proper aspect ratio.


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

Thanks Mike. And yes your post does explain it. Actually, my bottom line question was "Will there be some satellite subs who will loose their locals after 2/09"? and you gave the best answer we could expect.

I must say, however, that while we both heard the same thing, you apparently "read" more than I did. That probably speaks to our relative scope of knowledge.

Thanks again.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Thanks for jumping in, Mike. I was getting a migraine reading the posts in this thread. 

Seems like I've already forgotten more than most of these newbies know about analog
vs digital, SD vs HD, 1080i vs 1080p, d/a convertors, retransmission agreements and
the like, but I still remember when I was a DBS noob of sorts. :grin:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jgurley said:


> Actually, my bottom line question was "Will there be some satellite subs who will loose their locals after 2/09"? and you gave the best answer we could expect.


Here's another answer ... based loosely on E*'s statements ...

DISH will be doing what they can to make sure no local station is lost.
If a local station withholds their digital signal there is nothing that DISH can do.
DISH expects to have 100 HD markets (80% of US TV Households) by end of 2008.

My expectations:
1) SD locals will become downrez and likely cropped versions of the HD feeds, unless the local stations provide a SD feed (either OTA as a sub-channel or directly to DISH).

2) Some stations will refuse to allow their channels to be downrezed to SD ... either totally (HD carriage only) or they will require their HD channel to be carried to be able to offer it SD. This will lead to missing channels until space is found to convert all markets to HD.

3) Some stations will refuse one of their channels to be carried without carriage of all of their sub channels. This too will lead to new holes.

Eventually it will be sorted out ... hopefully without too much FCC interference and before February 2009 - but some stations have been known for being tough negotiators. (And for that reason, some are not on DISH today.)


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

James, between you and Mike we finally seemed to have gotten some answers. It did take all day, and I got yelled at and we got a bit off track at times, but at last some lucid, complete responses. Thanks


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## Austin316 (Dec 9, 2007)

Speaking of sub channels has dish mention including subchannels ?

Some stations choose to have multiple SD feeds instead of HD. Example is the Wusf which is a pbs station but they do 4 SD feeds and no HD which is sad but small and compact and really would be a nice addition to my current locals as right now dish is just rebroadcasting the main feed which is handled by fiber in tampa, but I think for some stations they do provide quality entertainment on the subchannels.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'm not worried about the stations doing four to six subchannels WITHOUT a HD ... in the grand scheme of things it takes the space of six SD channels to uplink a HD channel (although that math gets fuzzy when you compare SD MPEG2/QPSK vs HD MPEG4/8PSK). Dish could uplink the multiple SD subchannels in the same space as the HD would take.

What concerns me is the stations that do HD plus SD. Will E* be able to give them "six SD channels" of space using one or more channels of that space for SD and the rest of the space for HD? Or will E* have to use "six SD channels" of space for each HD _PLUS_ additional SD channel space for the subchannels?

Some of the subchannels are worth carrying. Some are not. Trying to get them all in is a major challenge. I expect the "main channel" is all we will get unless the FCC requires more or the stations negotiate strongly.

And yes, D* faces the same challenge on their SD service. Not everyone will convert to HD service and MPEG4 receivers within the next year on either service.


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## wmcneil (Mar 25, 2006)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> From what I read and heard last night on the chat, DISH and DIRECTv will both send techs to each and every dma that they already carry in sd and put up antennas to receive the digital signals of the same sd locals that they both already carry.....


For stations currently broadcasting a digital signal, the switchover will require a change in broadcast channel in many cases. There must have to be coordination on this, because there are many cases of overlap between the new and old channels. A station can not start broadcasting on its new channel before another station stops broadcasting on the same channel (its old channel)....So how is this going to managed, relative to the process you describe above? How/When is the coordination going to occur in a given dma? For cases of overlapping channels, if over air testing is going to occur, then there will be periods of time where the content changes from old station to new station, which seems a problem to me?


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## Austin316 (Dec 9, 2007)

Now what I find interesting is this. 

People always complain about how satellite does not have there local insert for the weather channel. Right now the major network players seem to be doing this for there Digital assignments, 1 HD channel and 1 weather sub station and just letting the tv down convert to what it can use. 

The indie channels seem to the the ones that have the 6 channels of sd subchannels, like james said some worth carring and other well not so much.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

wmcneil said:


> For stations currently broadcasting a digital signal, the switchover will require a change in broadcast channel in many cases. There must have to be coordination on this, because there are many cases of overlap between the new and old channels. A station can not start broadcasting on its new channel before another station stops broadcasting on the same channel (its old channel)....So how is this going to managed, relative to the process you describe above? How/When is the coordination going to occur in a given dma? For cases of overlapping channels, if over air testing is going to occur, then there will be periods of time where the content changes from old station to new station, which seems a problem to me?


 I am not sure about how any of that will work. I just had a general idea of how it is supposed to work. I am sure we will hear more about this and the problems that may exist as the deadline for 2009 nears.


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

I posted this same question on my local AVSforum since it has several contributors who work for our local networks. Here is a response from one of them:

*"I read a couple months back that both D* and E* were trying to figure out how to change all of their SD LIL markets from analog to digital to meet the dead line and the general thought was equipment wasn't a problem but there wasn't enough manpower to do the work to make the date and they were going to have to rethink it.

The thought in the article was that the SD is covered, whether they pick up an analog or digital signal, as long as it is sent as SD, all D* and E* have to do is convert the digital signal to SD and they are good to go. If D* or E* wants to carry the digital signal in HD, then that would require a separate agreement with the stations. A lot of this stuff is still pretty fluid and it will after first of the year before anything concrete starts to come together."*

I questioned him about his use of the word "analog" in the first sentence, 2nd paragraph because there will be no analog come 2/2009.

Regarding his comment that "all D* and E* have to do is convert the digital signal to SD and they are good to go" seems to support some of the earlier posts here.

I don't know about other markets, but where I live some networks have the same DTV programming in HD and SD using one of their subs for digital SD. But not all our networks do this. Their sub channels are different programs and only the primary is HD.

So maybe one of two things will have to occur. Either Dish offers HD or they downrez the HD programming for those networks which don't have digital SD. At this point I'm just trying to put together what I've read and thinking a bit off the top of my head (dangerous).

Why am I thinking there are too many players with different agendas and somewhere along the way it's likely to get screwed up?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

"Why am I thinking there are too many players with different agendas and somewhere along the way it's likely to get screwed up?"

Because it's true.
Dish and Direct will have to approach each station individually to keep them going. Depending on what the station is doing and how they get their signal, I think it is likely that they will have standard packages to change their current setup.


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## jgurley (Feb 1, 2005)

The following is a quote from an executive at one of our local networks which sheds more light on the topic.

*"The FCC this week published its report to the GAO with respect to the digital television transition. It is a bear to wade through, but I'll try and find the link and post it. In any case, all any of us can do at this point is to speculate about what DISH and DirecTV will do, because the FCC has not yet settled on the rules.
While rules have been in place for cable for a year or two, (and they specify that cable must pass through the digital signal "without material degradation..." - - including subchannels - - the FCC is yet to figure out what to require of the DBS operators. Time is running out, though, so I would look for an FCC notice of proposed rulemaking very soon. Meanwhile, the broadcasters will lobby for an interpretation that calls for no material degradation and the DBS guys will lobby that they don't have enough capacity. If DBS wins the argument, then subscribers will get that ugly, compressed, stepped-on version of HDTV instead of what you see with an OTA antenna."*

I don't know what advice some of you would give, but for me I'm doing all I can to get my locals OTA, and if someone with Dish or Directv were to ask my opinion I'd suggest they do the same.

Here's the link to the document he mentioned.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=96536&d=1197553387


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## vstone (Jun 23, 2004)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> ...
> The problem is many of the stations do not have a digital signal yet and as such they can't offer anything for DISH or DIRECTV to broadcast .
> ...
> .


I'd bet that the vast majority of local stations that Dish and DirecTV are carrying currently have digital signals. They carry mostly just the major networks and very few of these stations have waivers for not being digitally live.


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## vstone (Jun 23, 2004)

wmcneil said:


> For stations currently broadcasting a digital signal, the switchover will require a change in broadcast channel in many cases. There must have to be coordination on this, because there are many cases of overlap between the new and old channels. A station can not start broadcasting on its new channel before another station stops broadcasting on the same channel (its old channel)....So how is this going to managed, relative to the process you describe above? How/When is the coordination going to occur in a given dma? For cases of overlapping channels, if over air testing is going to occur, then there will be periods of time where the content changes from old station to new station, which seems a problem to me?


And in some cases, the station i switching its digital frequency to their own just vacated analog frequency.

Should be an interesting time!


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