# Security Torx™ Question



## Throckmorton (Dec 7, 2007)

Will I need a Security Torx™ to replace the drive in an HR20-700?

And if so, do we know what size? Do they have them at Home Depot?

My HR20-700 is up on a hard to reach shelf so I would like to be prepared to do the job before going through the trouble of pulling it down.

Thanks!


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

Mine all have Security Torx, but I couldn't tell you what size it is off of the top of my head.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

pointed nose vice grips.......


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## Throckmorton (Dec 7, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> pointed nose vice grips.......


Awesome!

Thanks.


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> pointed nose vice grips.......


:lol: That sounds like the beginning of an epic fail.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

it works 
replacing with normal drive screws not a bad idea either 
don't remember layout on -700 but think they will fit fine.


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

Throckmorton said:


> Awesome!
> 
> Thanks.


I taken several covers off just using a small flat blade screwdriver that fits into the space between the pin and the points of the star.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I think it is a T10, and I do not think you can get it at most local stores such as Lowe's or Home Depot. I ordered a set of bits on-line.

I agree trying to remove a security torx screw without the proper bit (pliers or tiny screw driver) is probably a bad idea for most people (but will admit some obviously can do it).


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Carl's right. It's a T-10 for nearly all your owned receiver cases. However, I think the ones on the drive may be smaller. Make sure you get a bit set and not just the T-10. 

I got the bits at my HomeDepot but you are most likely to find them at an auto parts store.

Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Throckmorton said:


> Awesome!
> 
> Thanks.


Oh, my God! Use the correct tool for the job. Here's a *link* to the set I bought a couple years ago.

One thing I had pounded into my during my apprenticeship was to use the right tool for the job every time. I don't even use adjustable wrenches such as Crescent sells. You want to butcher up a job, use the wrong tools, you want to do a "craftsmen-like" job use the tool that the job calls for.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> pointed nose vice grips.......


I gotta say you shocked me, Dave. :nono2:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> it works


So will an "easy out", but, again, it's the wrong tool for the job.

Rich


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

I got a set of bits at Lowes. Cost me about $10.00. I wouldn't go the vice grips route, especially when removing the hard drive. One slip could mean major damage.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BattleScott said:


> I taken several covers off just using a small flat blade screwdriver that fits into the space between the pin and the points of the star.


Oh. No. That's so wrong. :nono2:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

carl6 said:


> I think it is a T10, and I do not think you can get it at most local stores such as Lowe's or Home Depot. I ordered a set of bits on-line.
> 
> I agree trying to remove a security torx screw without the proper bit (pliers or tiny screw driver) is probably a bad idea for most people (but will admit some obviously can do it).


It's not a "bad" idea, it's a horrible idea!

Rich


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Carl's right. It's a T-10 for nearly all your owned receiver cases. However, I think the ones on the drive may be smaller. Make sure you get a bit set and not just the T-10.
> 
> Mike


Looking at one I have here, the smaller ones are a T-8


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MikeW said:


> I got a set of bits at Lowes. Cost me about $10.00. I wouldn't go the vice grips route, especially when removing the hard drive. One slip could mean major damage.


Or you could chisel off the top of the screw and drill out the rest of the screw and really botch the job up. That set I put up the link to is perfect. You do need a driver tho. Or you could jam a screwdriver into the hole that the driver fits into. "That works". :nono2:

We should really be better than this, guys. :nono2:

Rich


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

With most of today's electronics, a good set of security bits is essential. Like mentioned above, they are $10-$20.


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Oh. No. That's so wrong. :nono2:
> 
> Rich


If it works, why is it wrong? better than going out and trying to track down a security torx bit.

Another easy trick is to snap the security pin out with a pair of needle nose pliers, then a standard torx bit will work.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BattleScott said:


> If it works, why is it wrong? better than going out and trying to track down a security torx bit.
> 
> Another easy trick is to snap the security pin out with a pair of needle nose pliers, then a standard torx bit will work.


I made my comments, I hope the TS will listen to them.

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Unless you are used to modifying, adapting, or using the wrong tools you should not be using anything *but* the right tool for the job. And by being used to I mean over years of using hand tools where you are intimately familiar with the angles and forces applied as well as directional counter torque (very important when jury rigging something like using a small screwdriver to remove a security torx screw; otherwise you'll bust that tip off in a heartbeat).

Using something that modified, custom made or just plain the wrong tool for the job is a recipe for disaster. You should never workaround something unless you've already mastered doing it correctly to begin with. After two years as a mechanic in the Army and ten years in Navy I've seen plenty of people hurt themselves or break what they're working on because they didn't know what they're doing. Not that they were bad at their job but just because they were unfamiliar with that particular component/equipment.

You can get security bits from any hardware or auto parts store...except for those stupid bleepin' five lobe torx-plus tools (just try to get that bleeping leatherman wave apart without one )...anyway, they're really cheap and available anywhere these days. You'll probably go get a set when you break off that tip on the little screwdriver anyway. :grin:

If you're comfortable with using something different then by all means do so. Keep in mind most people here are experienced tinkerers before you decide what fits your skill level. Sorry Rich, but if someone knows what they're doing who are we to say otherwise. However, if you're a novice then stick to using the right tool for the job.

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I made my comments, I hope the TS will listen to them.
> 
> Rich


"It's so simple, a caveman can do it". 
Which leads to the hammer & chisel approach.. :nono: :nono: :nono:

If you're a tool & die maker, then you have the skills, but if not, then don't try.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

hey if you have to order bits and wait and the wait is not an problem then of course its the best way.
but if you cannot wait and NEED to do it pointed nose vise grips are the best alternative tool, they do NOT affect the actual torx settings so the correct tool can be used later.
its not like gripping with pliers and slipping, small pointed nose (chisel type not blunt) will grip tightly and allow you to move it enough to do by hand.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

David MacLeod said:


> its not like gripping with pliers and slipping, small pointed nose (chisel type not blunt) will grip tightly and allow you to move it enough to do by hand.


"when properly used" :lol:


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

:lol: not sure proper use would apply here 
it is a work around, but as far as work arounds go its the safest as normal tool can be used after.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

David MacLeod said:


> :lol: not sure proper use would apply here
> it is a work around, but as far as work arounds go its the safest as normal tool can be used after.


My neighbor once brought over an old gas tank with a sender he wanted out.
It was attached with some odd screws that looked something like (_) [on the inside] with flats top/bottom.
The only thing I had were a pair of micro channel locks which worked fine to remove them, by grabbing the outside.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

yup same procedure, only difference is grips will lock so you can position better and move hands as needed.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> :lol: not sure proper use would apply here
> it is a work around, but as far as work arounds go its the safest as normal tool can be used after.


Actually, I think a small pair of side-cutters would do the job much better. The blunt end of side-cutters is an excellent tool for getting a screw loose. If you really have to use the wrong tool. But, if that blunt end slips off the head of the screw, you better hope you don't have a fold of skin stuck in them.

Let me pose a question that seems really simplistic, but usually throws even skilled craftsmen: What is the best way to loosen a screw that is really tight? Without stripping it? You might be able to Google the answer, but that would be cheating. Doesn't matter what type of screw, works for all of them.

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Actually, I think a small pair of side-cutters would do the job much better. The blunt end of side-cutters is an excellent tool for getting a screw loose. If you really have to use the wrong tool. But, if that blunt end slips off the head of the screw, you better hope you don't have a fold of skin stuck in them.
> 
> Let me pose a question that seems really simplistic, but usually throws even skilled craftsmen: What is the best way to loosen a screw that is really tight? Without stripping it? You might be able to Google the answer, but that would be cheating. Doesn't matter what type of screw, works for all of them.
> 
> Rich


Use the correct size driver (nut or screw) and hit it with a hammer while turning the driver. You have to do it carefully and only hit hard enough to lossen it up. It's the same as using a impact wrench. I have a couple of impact drivers that I can put sockets or bits on just for removing stubborn fasteners...put the right socket/bit on it an hit with a hammer. 

Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Use the correct size driver (nut or screw) and hit it with a hammer while turning the driver. You have to do it carefully and only hit hard enough to lossen it up. It's the same as using a impact wrench.
> 
> Mike


Nope. Not a bad way to do it tho. The answer is so simple.

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Nope. Not a bad way to do it tho. The answer is so simple.
> 
> Rich


Short of heat or penetrating oils (both of which I try not to use) I got nothing. :shrug:

I have a couple of drivers similar to this. Link

I've always thought it was the right tool for the job. I must be missing something.

Mike


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

rich584 said:


> What is the best way to loosen a screw that is really tight? Without stripping it?
> Rich


Use the right type and size screwdriver for the head of the screw and twist with enough force to loosen it. That's the best way.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Short of heat or penetrating oils (both of which I try not to use) I got nothing. :shrug:


I should have said in the original question that you don't need anything but the proper screwdriver. Sorry.



> I have a couple of drivers similar to this. Link


Yeah, I've got them too, great for working on motorcycles.



> I've always thought it was the right tool for the job. I must be missing something.


Mine don't come with bits small enough for, say, a 10/24 screw.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BattleScott said:


> Use the right type and size screwdriver for the head of the screw and twist with enough force to loosen it. That's the best way.


Nope.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Nope. Not a bad way to do it tho. The answer is so simple.
> 
> Rich


What we always end up doing: piss on it. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> What we always end up doing: piss on it. :lol:


Almost fell off my chair! Good one!

I hit baseballs for exercise on a field with two baseball fields side by side. On the other field, a friend of mine hits golf balls. I damn near drove him nuts this summer after I asked him who the greatest Latino baseball player of all time was. He had his son-in-law researching the question and offered up a new name every time I saw him. In a couple months we'll be at it again. And I'm not gonna answer the question until he comes up with the correct answer.

Rich


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Nope.
> 
> Rich


If that's not the best way to loosen a screw without stripping it, then the entire concept of screws and screw drivers is absurd. If there is a better way to loosen a screw than that, it should be the preferred tool for manipulating screws in the first place.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I'm waiting for Rich to say "tighten it first" and then loosen it.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

rich584 said:


> I should have said in the original question that you don't need anything but the proper screwdriver. Sorry.
> 
> Rich


Perhaps one more condition require to clarify to separate rusty with overtightened screw ?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BattleScott said:


> If that's not the best way to loosen a screw without stripping it, then the entire concept of screws and screw drivers is absurd. If there is a better way to loosen a screw than that, it should be the preferred tool for manipulating screws in the first place.


But the screwdriver is the tool you use to loosen it. It's really simple. 

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm waiting for Rich to say "tighten it first" and then loosen it.


And we have a winner!!!

You gotta understand what a chemical and plastics plant environment is like to appreciate this very simple solution. We had resins floating in the air in some buildings that put such a seal on screws that loosening them up in the normal way just wouldn't work. You'd destroy the screw if you tried. No matter how much pressure you exerted toward the screw head. But just slightly tightening the screw, actually loosened them and then you could remove them easily. My brother was working in an auto repair shop and I dropped in one day and he was battling a screw and I showed him how to do it and he couldn't believe it.

I learned that from an electrician who was in the tank corp in Africa during WWII. The dust in the desert damn near fused screws in place. Don't remember who he learned it from. Never will find out, he passed a few years ago. Good guy.

It works on nut and bolts too. The thing with us (the electricians) was that we used brass machine screws for just about everything and if you twist a brass machine screw hard enough the whole top of the screw twists off. Then you have to get an easy-out or drill the rest of the screw out and retap the hole.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Perhaps one more condition require to clarify to separate rusty with overtightened screw ?


See my reply to *VOS*. Rusted screws are something else. We used mostly brass screws and didn't have that problem. Our other mechanics would always apply a paste like substance called "Easy Off" that would keep their screws or nuts and bolts from rusting or corroding. Corrosion was a constant battle and we used tubs of that stuff. The drawback was that the screws and nuts and bolts loosened up more easily from vibrations. And the whole place vibrated. Cheery place to work!

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

So here's an "east coast" trick that was never heard of out west:
With a frozen, rusty nut, striking it with a chisel, on the flats [inline with the bolt] will expand the nut so in most cases it will come off the rusty bolt. Since the nut is now larger, it can't [or shouldn't be] reused.
The west coast version was to chisel/split it off completely.
You gotta love east coast winters and salting roads. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> So here's an "east coast" trick that was never heard of out west:
> With a frozen, rusty nut, striking it with a chisel, on the flats [inline with the bolt] will expand the nut so in most cases it will come off the rusty bolt. Since the nut is now larger, it can't [or shouldn't be] reused.
> The west coast version was to chisel/split it off completely.
> You gotta love east coast winters and salting roads. :lol:


That's what I used the "impact drivers" for that Mike posted in his reply to my question. Good tool to have around. Hardly ever use them, but they are cheap and work very well. Just takes one shot with a hammer and the nut loosens right up. Good thing to have in a toolbox.

Rich


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

IMHO I would not suggest using an impact driver on the screws holding your HR20 hard drive.


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

rich584 said:


> And we have a winner!!!
> 
> You gotta understand what a chemical and plastics plant environment is like to appreciate this very simple solution. We had resins floating in the air in some buildings that put such a seal on screws that loosening them up in the normal way just wouldn't work. You'd destroy the screw if you tried. No matter how much pressure you exerted toward the screw head. But just slightly tightening the screw, actually loosened them and then you could remove them easily. My brother was working in an auto repair shop and I dropped in one day and he was battling a screw and I showed him how to do it and he couldn't believe it.
> 
> ...


It's not possible to "loosen" a screw by "tightening" it, that's an oxymoron. - or wait that was Billy Mays the Oxy-moron.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

BattleScott said:


> It's not possible to "loosen" a screw by "tightening" it, that's an oxymoron. - or wait that was Billy Mays the Oxy-moron.


But you can break corrosion by tightening a screw. 
Sigh
I can't believe I fell into this conversation, I need a life:nono:


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

BattleScott said:


> It's not possible to "loosen" a screw by "tightening" it, that's an oxymoron. - or wait that was Billy Mays the Oxy-moron.


Actually it's pretty much standard procedure for non-torqued fasteners. If it's stuck tighting increases tension on the thread and reverses the contact friction and breaks seal (e.g. loctite). I didn't think that's where Rich was going with this though. It's not really a good idea on fasteners that torqued to full strength.

Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

armophob said:


> But you can break corrosion by tightening a screw.
> Sigh
> I can't believe I fell into this conversation, I need a life:nono:


I got bored. :lol:

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> That's what I used the "impact drivers" for that Mike posted in his reply to my question. Good tool to have around. Hardly ever use them, but they are cheap and work very well. Just takes one shot with a hammer and the nut loosens right up. Good thing to have in a toolbox.
> 
> Rich


Think you may have missed the point. I'm well aware of impacts, which can also stall, or break the bolt. By stretching the nut by striking the flats [all sometimes] you've expanded the internal threads, thus easing the nut removal.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Actually it's pretty much standard procedure for non-torqued fasteners. If it's stuck tighting increases tension on the thread and reverses the contact friction and breaks seal (e.g. loctite). I didn't think that's where Rich was going with this though.


That's exactly where I was going. And that's exactly what happens. The screws don't always get that tight by over-tightening them. When screws sit in place for years they tend to bond (or at least it seems like a bond) with the surrounding metal. Tightening the screw weakens that bond, or as you said seal, and the screw is easily backed out.



> It's not really a good idea on fasteners that torqued to full strength.


I've always wondered about that. Surely, they must build a safety factor into the torque wrenches, no? I had a nice torque wrench, but I never had to use it and just left it for the next guy when I got promoted. Never had to use one while plying my trade.

Rich


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

I created a monster....


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Think you may have missed the point. I'm well aware of impacts, which can also stall, or break the bolt. By stretching the nut by striking the flats [all sometimes] you've expanded the internal threads, thus easing the nut removal.


No, I knew what you meant.

I was talking about breaking loose the bolts on my motorcycle. They got corroded easily. We're only about 30 miles or less from the ocean. As the crow flies. My bike and I spent a lot of time at the beach, too. The impact wrenches I have I got a long time ago, specifically for my bike. Had to use them gently and never broke a bolt.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> I created a monster....


Aww, I thought I started it! :lol:

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> That's exactly where I was going. And that's exactly what happens. The screws don't always get that tight by over-tightening them. When screws sit in place for years they tend to bond (or at least it seems like a bond) with the surrounding metal. Tightening the screw weakens that bond, or as you said seal, and the screw is easily backed out.
> 
> I've always wondered about that. Surely, they must build a safety factor into the torque wrenches, no? I had a nice torque wrench, but I never had to use it and just left it for the next guy when I got promoted. Never had to use one while plying my trade.
> 
> Rich


Actually fasteners in industrial applications are torqued by either a specific gasket crush or a torque value that achieves full strength in the fasteners (FED-STD-H28A). In the case of a full strength assembly it actually is torqued to achieve near yield strength. Handbook 28 has all the dimensions and specs for calculating the torque spec.

Of course none of this applies to DirecTV's receivers. AAMOF, there is a whole different spec for tightening fasteners for electronics...not full strength assemblies. :grin:

BTW, I used torque wrenches all the time in the Army/Navy. I once torqued the diesel engine main bearing caps to ≈750ft-lbs. The case for the wrench was four feet long and included two handle extentions. 

Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

armophob said:


> IMHO I would not suggest using an impact driver on the screws holding your HR20 hard drive.


Wonder if anybody makes them that small?

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Wonder if anybody makes them that small?
> 
> Rich


I don't have a clue but I suspect there isn't one that small. :grin:

Mike


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## mobandit (Sep 4, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Actually fasteners in industrial applications are torqued by either a specific gasket crush or a torque value that achieves full strength in the fasteners (FED-STD-H28A). In the case of a full strength assembly it actually is torqued to achieve near yield strength. Handbook 28 has all the dimensions and specs for calculating the torque spec.
> 
> Of course none of this applies to DirecTV's receivers. AAMOF, there is a whole different spec for tightening fasteners for electronics...not full strength assemblies. :grin:
> 
> ...


I know...off topic, but I can't resist. I once had to torque a fastener on an application in the Navy that had a spec of around 750 ft-lbs. I remember the torque wrench was HUGE, had a set of reduction gears in it to multiply applied torque...took two of us to use...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Actually fasteners in industrial applications are torqued by either a specific gasket crush or a torque value that achieves full strength in the fasteners (FED-STD-H28A). In the case of a full strength assembly it actually is torqued to achieve near yield strength. Handbook 28 has all the dimensions and specs for calculating the torque spec.
> 
> Mike


"And then there is" when a bolt is tightened by the amount of stretch, and not torque. This usually is by degrees after full contact.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Wonder if anybody makes them that small?
> 
> Rich


I haven't found a manual ¼" drive impact, but battery & air are all over.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "And then there is" when a bolt is tightened by the amount of stretch, and not torque. This usually is by degrees after full contact.


Yup, getting to but not into the plastic region of the material. A full strength assembly.

They have break away systems that achieve the same thing without user measurement or even turning the fastener.

I once saw a set of bolt pre-heated and torqued to about 500 ft-lbs. When the bolts cooled the final torque of just over 100,000 ft-lbs was reached....yes, I said a hundred thousand. 

I doubt the hard drive is held in that high to torque or precision. :lol:

Mike


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

head studs on high compression engines, have to measure stretch when installing studs and when torquing head down.

which has nothing to do with directv...


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

We use Mega-lugs on watermain assembly that have break away bolts to ensure proper torque without measurement tools out in the field. The outer large bolt head breaks off and exposes a smaller bolt head for removal if needed.

No where near the torque Mike is talking about.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

_Ahem!_

Back on topic, Harbor Freight sells them. Kits with one driver and multiple tips should be avoided, as some of the DVR designs have two screws at the bottom of two skinny plastic tunnels, and the enlarged tip holder is too fat, so you may be better off with a dedicated tool that is a t-10.

_"But how do we get the screw to go into the little tunnel in the right orientation?"_, you ask. The best way is to use a little chewing gum, and insert the tool into the screw with the chewing gum holding it to the tool. Sugarless Trident seems to work better than bubble gum.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Or wax


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

small dab of hot glue.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

But if you use gum, the gum comes out with the screwdriver, leaving no evidence that you were there.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Always on sale for anywhere between $3 and $8 at Harbor Freight. Item #93388. There is one Woodbridge NJ for you GSP folks.

Edit: Amazon.com for $4 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009U6AB4


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TomCat said:


> _Ahem!_
> 
> Back on topic, Harbor Freight sells them. Kits with one driver and multiple tips should be avoided, as some of the DVR designs have two screws at the bottom of two skinny plastic tunnels, and the enlarged tip holder is too fat, so you may be better off with a dedicated tool that is a t-10.
> 
> _"But how do we get the screw to go into the little tunnel in the right orientation?"_, you ask. The best way is to use a little chewing gum, and insert the tool into the screw with the chewing gum holding it to the tool. Sugarless Trident seems to work better than bubble gum.


To answer your question, you turn the screw the opposite way until it seats itself then turn it the proper way. Another little tip from a WWII vet. Those guys just knew how to use tools. Probably a bit difficult to find gum or wax handy in the desert with Rommel and his tank corps bearing down on you. Man, the stories some of those guys told. I knew a man that was on the Bataan Death March. He told us the story in dribs and drabs. Just couldn't hold his composure for long.

And they're all gone, for the most part. The Greatest Generation.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> Always on sale for anywhere between $3 and $8 at Harbor Freight. Item #93388. There is one Woodbridge NJ for you GSP folks.
> 
> Edit: Amazon.com for $4 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009U6AB4


Knew someone would find a set.

Rich


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Or wax


From a candle, not ones ear. Please do not stick a torx bit in your ear to retrieve the wax. 
Sorry, in this particular thread, I thought it needed said out loud.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> Always on sale for anywhere between $3 and $8 at Harbor Freight. Item #93388. There is one Woodbridge NJ for you GSP folks.
> 
> Edit: Amazon.com for $4 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009U6AB4


That's the exact set I got from Auto Zone.


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## Throckmorton (Dec 7, 2007)

Wow. The thread has come a long way since I last stopped by.

I found a Husky brand 10 piece security torx bit set (T7-T40) with a ratcheting driver handle at Home Depot for $10. It's a nice set where the molded bit holder fits into the handle.

I was surprised. They didn't have the T-Bar allen wrenches I needed for something else, but thay had that.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Throckmorton said:


> Wow. The thread has come a long way since I last stopped by.
> 
> I found a Husky brand 10 piece security torx bit set (T7-T40) with a ratcheting driver handle at Home Depot for $10. It's a nice set where the molded bit holder fits into the handle.
> 
> I was surprised. They didn't have the T-Bar allen wrenches I needed for something else, but thay had that.


That's a big set. Very Nice. 

Mike


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## prospect60 (Aug 26, 2006)

And to continue the back to beginning -- I got my set at Lowes for $4 or 5


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

rich584 said:


> To answer your question, you turn the screw the opposite way until it seats itself then turn it the proper way. Another little tip from a WWII vet. Those guys just knew how to use tools. Probably a bit difficult to find gum or wax handy in the desert with Rommel and his tank corps bearing down on you. Man, the stories some of those guys told. I knew a man that was on the Bataan Death March. He told us the story in dribs and drabs. Just couldn't hold his composure for long.
> 
> And they're all gone, for the most part. The Greatest Generation.
> 
> Rich


If I was in that situation, I would probably be $#!++!ng my pants, which if you are enterprising enough, can provide you with what you need to do this job. Ew.

But careful reading reveals that that was NOT my question, and your little trick is not a solution. I'd be willing to bet that if you took your approach and I took mine (assuming we faced the same problem of a torx-10 screw at the bottom of a plastic tunnel), that my tank would be up and out of there, and yours would be blowing up before you ever got the screw to orient itself to the screw hole. But you'd still get a medal of valor and I would take care of your wife and family.

The problem is that you can't guarantee the screw won't end up upside-down if you can't "glue" it to the driver to prevent that. You can't simply close your eyes and drop the screw into the little tunnel and simply hope that it orients itself in a way that your little trick will fix, because if the screw end doesn't at least fall into the hole properly, you can try that trick until you are blue in the face and ready to throw your DVR of a balcony, and it may never work if the screw is laying down their sideways or screw-part up. Apparently much of winning WWII might have been sheer luck, if the Greatest Generation never really learned to pay attention .


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

TBlazer07 said:


> Always on sale for anywhere between $3 and $8 at Harbor Freight. Item #93388. There is one Woodbridge NJ for you GSP folks.
> 
> Edit: Amazon.com for $4 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009U6AB4


Well, this is exactly what I was talking about and _*exactly the set to avoid,*_ as the wide driver tip that accepts interchangeable sizes will never fit in the plastic tunnels on certain models.


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## michaelp95 (Jan 17, 2008)

If you have a Harbor Freight Tools close by, this is what I used.

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-pc-mni-star-tamper-proof-key-set-97469.html


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

michaelp95 said:


> If you have a Harbor Freight Tools close by, this is what I used.
> 
> http://www.harborfreight.com/7-pc-mni-star-tamper-proof-key-set-97469.html


Does that fit down the internal tubes of an HR20-100?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

matt1124 said:


> Does that fit down the internal tubes of an HR20-100?


what you think if it has a diameter of head of the screws ?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TomCat said:


> If I was in that situation, I would probably be $#!++!ng my pants, which if you are enterprising enough, can provide you with what you need to do this job. Ew.
> 
> But careful reading reveals that that was NOT my question, and your little trick is not a solution. I'd be willing to bet that if you took your approach and I took mine (assuming we faced the same problem of a torx-10 screw at the bottom of a plastic tunnel), that my tank would be up and out of there, and yours would be blowing up before you ever got the screw to orient itself to the screw hole. But you'd still get a medal of valor and I would take care of your wife and family.
> 
> The problem is that you can't guarantee the screw won't end up upside-down if you can't "glue" it to the driver to prevent that. You can't simply close your eyes and drop the screw into the little tunnel and simply hope that it orients itself in a way that your little trick will fix, because if the screw end doesn't at least fall into the hole properly, you can try that trick until you are blue in the face and ready to throw your DVR of a balcony, and it may never work if the screw is laying down their sideways or screw-part up. Apparently much of winning WWII might have been sheer luck, if the Greatest Generation never really learned to pay attention .


I have a bunch of screwdrivers that firmly hold screws so that the screws are properly placed. Any good mechanic has these and uses them. Again, the proper tool for the job.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

P Smith said:


> what you think if it has a diameter of head of the screws ?


"Maybe" he doesn't know "how long the tube is".


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I have a bunch of screwdrivers that firmly hold screws so that the screws are properly placed. Any good mechanic has these and uses them. Again, the proper tool for the job.
> 
> Rich


can you say magnet? :lol:


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Magnetizer/demagnetizer gadget ! I used and still use it from old time when only Germans made it.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

P Smith said:


> what you think if it has a diameter of head of the screws ?





veryoldschool said:


> "Maybe" he doesn't know "how long the tube is".


Yep. Is it long enough to reach to the screw? Sorry for the confusion.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> can you say magnet? :lol:


That was the next thing I was gonna suggest. Tom seems to fixated on the small impact drivers. Don't really see much use for them in a DVR. I've also never seen a Torx screw in an inaccessible place, but I'd probably go with the Magnetizing Pyramid if I found one that was problematic. That would make both the screw and the driver strongly magnetized.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> Magnetizer/demagnetizer gadget ! I used and still use it from old time when only Germans made it.


Is that like the Magnetizing Pyramid?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

P Smith said:


> what you think if it has a diameter of head of the screws ?


I've never seen a "tube" for a screw that would allow the screw to flip over, every one I've seen is just a bit larger than the screw head. Kinda hard to "screw" that up. 

Rich


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

rich584 said:


> I have a bunch of screwdrivers that firmly hold screws so that the screws are properly placed. Any good mechanic has these and uses them. Again, the proper tool for the job.
> 
> Rich


 Are those the ones that have those little spring pieces on the business end? Those always looked cool, but in all the years of bench work I performed, I never was lucky enough to have one. In a perfect world that would be preferable to gum. I'll give you that one.

Now go to [Harbor Freight or brick&mortar store of your choice] and try to find a Torx-10 like that. We'll wait right here 'til you get back.

_>
>
>
[fingers drumming on table]
>
>
>
[Jeopardy theme repeating]
>
>
>
[sunrise...sunset]
>
>
>
[pages blowing off the calendar]
>
>
>
[birds flying south, then returning]
_
I think they sell _Trident_ in every grocery and drug store. You can find it on pretty much any corner. While you were out I replaced drives in both HR20-100's and still had time to play seven games of pool on the iPad.

You can brag about having that "special tool" (we all know you have a big one), or give advice that's actually helpful.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

TomCat said:


> Are those the ones that have those little spring pieces on the business end? Those always looked cool, but in all the years of bench work I performed, I never was lucky enough to have one. In a perfect world that would be preferable to gum. I'll give you that one.
> 
> Now go to [Harbor Freight or brick&mortar store of your choice] and try to find a Torx-10 like that. We'll wait right here 'til you get back.
> 
> ...


Not many grocery & drug stores available when you're at 450' on submarine. We just used a magnetizer/demagnetizer, a dab if silicone grease...or, you know the right or more practical tool for the job. :grin:

Mike


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

rich584 said:


> Is that like the Magnetizing Pyramid?
> 
> Rich


Yeah... for your eyes only


Spoiler






Mike Bertelson said:


> Not many grocery & drug stores available when you're at 450' on submarine. We just used a *magnetizer/demagnetizer*, a dab if silicone grease...or, you know the right or more practical tool for the job. :grin:
> 
> Mike


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

TomCat said:


> Well, this is exactly what I was talking about and _*exactly the set to avoid,*_ as the wide driver tip that accepts interchangeable sizes will never fit in the plastic tunnels on certain models.


 *EASY* to *SOLVE* just use *THIS* first:










Seriously though, good point (no pun intended).


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Not many grocery & drug stores available when you're at 450' on submarine. We just used a magnetizer/demagnetizer, a dab if silicone grease...or, you know the right or more practical tool for the job. :grin:
> 
> Mike


+1......these days "Yankee Ingenuity" is a lost skill that only those in the military seem to have!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TomCat said:


> Are those the ones that have those little spring pieces on the business end? Those always looked cool, but in all the years of bench work I performed, I never was lucky enough to have one. In a perfect world that would be preferable to gum. I'll give you that one.


No, those aren't what I meant. For instance, for a flat head screwdriver I have several sizes of holding screwdrivers that have split heads that you place into the slot and then expand them. They hold the screw securely enough to get it started correctly.



> Now go to [Harbor Freight or brick&mortar store of your choice] and try to find a Torx-10 like that. We'll wait right here 'til you get back.


While you're waiting, you might check out my post about the "screw tunnels", I've never seen one that was large enough for a screw to flip over in. And I've never seen a Torx screw in an inaccessible place. The ones I've seen were easily removed or replaced. But that's just me, I know I haven't seen everything.



> You can brag about having that "special tool" (we all know you have a big one), or give advice that's actually helpful.


And you wonder why you aggravate people?

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> +1......these days "Yankee Ingenuity" is a lost skill that only those in the military seem to have!


The two things you learn in military...

1. How to get the job done with what's at hand
2. How to run a floor buffer. :lol:

Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Not many grocery & drug stores available when you're at 450' on submarine. We just used a magnetizer/demagnetizer, a dab if silicone grease...or, you know the right or more practical tool for the job. :grin:
> 
> Mike


We didn't have anything but analog computers on our ship and we had a toolbox full of exotic screwdrivers that could go around corners, grip screws firmly from quite a distance and all kinds of ratchet connectors for our analog ballistic computer (which worked really well). If you ever get a chance, take an analog ballistic computer's covers off and you'll see why we had that toolbox.

Fortunately, we never had to use the tools, the computer never had any problems. I/we would have really liked to have taken that toolbox home, but the thing was worth so much money that it would have meant a General Court Martial if one of us had been caught taking it off the ship. We hatched many plans to get that thing, but never worked up the nerve to do it.

All the years I was a practicing electrician, I never had a use for any of those tools. Stealing it would have been a foolish thing to do.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> The two things you learn in military...
> 
> 1. How to get the job done with what's at hand
> 2. How to run a floor buffer. :lol:
> ...


Oh, I was really good with a buffer. I really liked waxing floors in barracks. When you get done, you've got a beautiful shiny floor for everyone to admire. Kinda like cutting the grass on Major League fields.

Rich


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

rich584 said:


> No, those aren't what I meant. For instance, for a flat head screwdriver I have several sizes of holding screwdrivers that have split heads that you place into the slot and then expand them. They hold the screw securely enough to get it started correctly.
> 
> Rich


I've always used the "low tech" solution: a bar of soap. Take the screw head and rub it vigorously on the bar of soap. Then apply the straight blade screwdriver to the soap filled screw head channel. Works every time.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Bertelson said:


> The two things you learn in military...
> 
> 1. How to get the job done with what's at hand
> 2. How to run a floor buffer. :lol:
> ...


Maybe this is the difference between the Navy & the Air Force but:

1. How to get the job done with what's at hand
2. How to *get out of running* a floor buffer. :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> No, those aren't what I meant. * For instance, for a flat head screwdriver I have several sizes of holding screwdrivers that have split heads that you place into the slot and then expand them*. They hold the screw securely enough to get it started correctly.
> 
> Rich


I've seen something like this once, but would bet most haven't, and would go further to suggest this is somewhat unique because of all the brass screws you used to deal with.
A magnetic screwdriver is much more common, along with the type that has "grabbers" from the outside.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I've seen something like this once, but would bet most haven't, and would go further to suggest this is somewhat unique because of all the brass screws you used to deal with.
> A magnetic screwdriver is much more common, along with the type that has "grabbers" from the outside.


I hate those "grabbers". They don't last and usually fall off after a while.

Mike


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I hate those "grabbers". They don't last and usually fall off after a while.
> 
> Mike


"Me too"

"You know you're old school when", you can remember being taught how to sharpen a screwdriver. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I've seen something like this once, but would bet most haven't, and would go further to suggest this is somewhat unique because of all the brass screws you used to deal with.
> A magnetic screwdriver is much more common, along with the type that has "grabbers" from the outside.


I don't like the grabbers. They don't hold the screws properly. Not a mechanic's tool.

As to the holding screwdrivers that I have being unique, perhaps they are, but I've never seen an electrician's toolbox that didn't have a set. Let me see if I can find a set...that didn't take long, here's a *link*. This only shows one size, but they come in a lot of sizes, small and large, thick and thin, short and long (for those recessed screws that sit in "tunnels"). The link I posted above is to a tool made by Klein, one of the finest manufacturers of electrical tools. I think.

As a side note: All the tools I have I purchased or acquired because I saw someone else use them. I usually only carried a tool pouch and a couple meters, but all I did was troubleshoot for the most part. But my tool box was full of tools that I had to have after seeing them used by others.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I hate those "grabbers". They don't last and usually fall off after a while.
> 
> Mike


Definitely not a tool for serious mechanics.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "Me too"
> 
> "You know you're old school when", you can remember being taught how to sharpen a screwdriver. :lol:


Huh. I still do that. Didn't consider that as extraordinary. It's common for an electrician to use a screwdriver as a chisel and a pair of side-cutters as a hammer. I do understand the drawbacks to using a screwdriver in that manner, but sometimes it was just the quickest way to get something done. When you have a process line that's making thousands of dollars an hour go down, you use tools in ways that they are not meant to be used. I'm not talking about using a screwdriver to chisel a three quarter inch bolt in half.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> It's common for an electrician to use a screwdriver as a chisel...
> 
> Rich


And a mechanic to use them as a pry bar.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> And a mechanic to use them as a pry bar.


Yeah, we had some really brutal mechanics. They used them for drift pins too. But we got our screwdrivers out to our storeroom, all Stanleys, and, since they we didn't have to pay for them...:lol:

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> And a mechanic to use them as a pry bar.


Not this mechanic. I use a screwdriver as a screwdriver and a pry bar as a pry bar.

I've seen a guy with a piece of screwdriver sticking out of his cheek after the screwdriver he was using to pry on a valve body shattered. It's amazing how much a face laceration bleeds. The right tool for the job...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Not this mechanic. I use a screwdriver as a screwdriver and a pry bar as a pry bar.
> 
> I've seen a guy with a piece of screwdriver sticking out of his cheek after the screwdriver he was using to pry on a valve body shattered. It's amazing how much a face laceration bleeds. The right tool for the job...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


You would not believe some of the things I've seen "mechanics" do with screwdrivers. The shaft will definitely shatter when used as a pry bar or a drift pin if the load is heavy enough.

I used to stand Shore Patrol a lot. We only carried night sticks (or whatever they're called) and were taught to smack someone across the forehead with the stick. Never did it, but I saw it done and the forehead bleeds so profusely it's really easy to subdue a drunk, unruly, person. And it doesn't seem to actually cause much harm.

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> You would not believe some of the things I've seen "mechanics" do with screwdrivers. The shaft will definitely shatter when used as a pry bar or a drift pin if the load is heavy enough.
> 
> I used to stand Shore Patrol a lot. We only carried night sticks (or whatever they're called) and were taught to smack someone across the forehead with the stick. Never did it, but I saw it done and the forehead bleeds so profusely it's really easy to subdue a drunk, unruly, person. And it doesn't seem to actually cause much harm.
> 
> Rich


I've never had to stand duty as Shore Patrol (or MP duty when I was in the Army). I had a..lets say a "discussion" with Shore Patrol one evening in Dunoon Scotland. I didn't get hit and was allowed to return to the boat on my own but it was touch and go there for a minute. 

I've seen a couple of screwdriver get bent or broke while someone was hitting it with a hammer. Not a pretty sight. :lol:

Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I've never had to stand duty as Shore Patrol (or MP duty when I was in the Army). I had a..lets say a "discussion" with Shore Patrol one evening in Dunoon Scotland. I didn't get hit and was allowed to return to the boat on my own but it was touch and go there for a minute.


You would not believe the things I saw while patrolling in various places. Norfolk is/was a wild place.



> I've seen a couple of screwdriver get bent or broke while someone was hitting it with a hammer. Not a pretty sight. :lol:


Those Stanleys took a lot of abuse, but our mechanics usually managed to destroy them occasionally.

Rich


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