# Dumb Question but



## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

This probably seems like a dumb question but here goes. What happens if you send Dishe's HD signal to a SD receiver? Will it down grade the HD signal to a SD signal or will no picture be delivered at all?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inazsully said:


> This probably seems like a dumb question but here goes. What happens if you send Dishe's HD signal to a SD receiver? Will it down grade the HD signal to a SD signal or will no picture be delivered at all?


The SD receivers cannot decode the HD signals and are programmed to ignore the feeds. You won't even know the channels exist.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

is there anyway Dish can flash the SD receivers so that it takes the HD feed and convert it to SD?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Probably not. That is a rather CPU intensive activity - most of what the receivers do is on custom silicon or specialized chips .


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

SD receivers can only decode MPEG v2 video streams, using a dedicated MPEG2 processor to do so. HD receivers have a processor that also decodes MPEG v4, which all HD (and some SD on the Eastern Arc sats) is decoded in. MPEG4 decoding cannot be done by the SD receivers' MPEG2 decoder chips, and nothing in software will change that, as the decoding works very differently and requires much more "horsepower" from the processor.

Bottom line: SD receivers' days are numbered. But Dish is offering most people free (leased) upgrades to HD equipment.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Most SD receivers cannot even tune the 8PSK transponders used for HD, they are limited to QPSK or Turbo QPSK reception. It is like asking if an AM radio can be software updated to receive FM. The hardware simply isn't capable.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

It's been well over a year ago that my neighbor switched to Dish and they received an HD receiver even though they only signed up for SD service. I called Dish and asked why and they said that their policy was for new customers it would be the HD receiver only.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

Yes. Dish is slowly phasing out SD receivers in favor of all HD.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

inazsully said:


> It's been well over a year ago that my neighbor switched to Dish and they received an HD receiver even though they only signed up for SD service. I called Dish and asked why and they said that their policy was for new customers it would be the HD receiver only.


Seems to me you mixed SIGNAL and SERVICE; if your question based on the neighbor's setup.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

inazsully said:


> It's been well over a year ago that my neighbor switched to Dish and they received an HD receiver even though they only signed up for SD service. I called Dish and asked why and they said that their policy was for new customers it would be the HD receiver only.


Dish's policy, since 6+ months ago, is that all customers qualifying for the DHA plan (i.e., you have good credit and qualify for the standard New Customer Offers) get only HD-capable equipment, including dish and all receivers. The fee for having HD equipment without HD service was eliminated in February, so you don't have to have HD service to get HD equipment.

Customers with poor credit who qualify for the Flex24 plan must pay to upgrade to HD, just like "good credit" folks used to, so most of them only get SD equipment.

While Dish still saves a lot of money by recycling the old SD receivers, there aren't enough of them to give to all new customers anymore, and SD receivers were taken out of production over 2 years ago. And they are moving towards a future where all receivers will have to be MPEG4 capable, which means HD receivers for everyone. Not installing SD receivers for "mainstream" customers is the first big step.

Also, keep in mind that most folks on the Eastern half of the country are on the Eastern Arc satellites, and must get HD equipment no matter what, as the Eastern Arc sats carry lots of the SD channels in MPEG4 as well as the HD. So, really, there aren't a whole lot of SD receivers being installed anymore.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Seems to me you mixed SIGNAL and SERVICE; if your question based on the neighbor's setup.


My question is based on my wondering about advisability of Dish Network ceasing the broadcast of all SD signals sometime during 2011. Since the production of SD receivers was halted over 2 years ago and many new SD subs everywhere, as well as all new SD subs in the eastern arc, are now receiving HD equipment automatically. Offering HD for life in 2010 was a brilliant marketing tool because it actually cost Dish nothing in the long run. Stopping all SD broadcast would be equally brilliant on an even larger scale. Because HD receivers will down rez HD to SD the non HD display owners would notice no changes and Dish could trumpet the charge of being the ONLY 100% HD PROVIDER in the world. Good stuff that.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm tell you - SD channels will NOT replaced by HD, they will continue send SD but will use H.264 method compression as it happening for EA.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inazsully said:


> My question is based on my wondering about advisability of Dish Network ceasing the broadcast of all SD signals sometime during 2011.


Is that a rumor or are you trying to start one?
DISH is _not_ ceasing broadcast of all SD signals in 2011. They don't have the resources to do so.



> Since the production of SD receivers was halted over 2 years ago and many new SD subs everywhere, as well as all new SD subs in the eastern arc, are now receiving HD equipment automatically.


That doesn't account for the millions of MPEG2 receivers in the field that would have to be replaced before MPEG2 is ceased. Those receivers cannot receive anything but an MPEG2 SD feed.



> Offering HD for life in 2010 was a brilliant marketing tool because it actually cost Dish nothing in the long run.


Replacing receivers is not free. Getting people to recommit to two more years is a great thing. Paperless and autopay are moneysavers for DISH's operation. But 'cost DISH nothing' is an inaccurate statement.



> Stopping all SD broadcast would be equally brilliant on an even larger scale. Because HD receivers will down rez HD to SD the non HD display owners would notice no changes and Dish could trumpet the charge of being the ONLY 100% HD PROVIDER in the world. Good stuff that.


There are too many popular networks that don't have an HD feed to carry. Not as many as there were a couple of years ago, but dropping every channel who isn't providing an upconverted/HD feed would drop a lot of content.

Give DISH billions of dollars and they will be glad to trade out all the receivers needed to move away from MPEG2 - but for now they simply cannot afford to do it quickly. Certainly not to the point where they could drop SD in 2011.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

James Long said:


> Is that a rumor or are you trying to start one?
> DISH is _not_ ceasing broadcast of all SD signals in 2011. They don't have the resources to do so.
> 
> That doesn't account for the millions of MPEG2 receivers in the field that would have to be replaced before MPEG2 is ceased. Those receivers cannot receive anything but an MPEG2 SD feed.
> ...


Regarding your first point. I used the word 'WONDERING" because I am making a guess at the possibility of when while knowing the absolute of 'it will happen".

Point two. By the end of 2011, if the SD content continues to drop at a similar rate that it has during the last two years I (just me) don't see a large content loss, especially as more and more HD displays replace SD displays.

Point three. Existing subs and new subs requiring HD equipment (for their new HD displays) will negate a great deal of the "billion of dollars" SD receiver replacement cost you mention. Lets face it, those new HD receivers and HD DVRs are money makers for Dish. Big money makers. Lease payments plus secondary receiver charges. Dish has to be drooling at the financial windfall potential.

Every SD receiver or DVR that is leased to a new sub or used as a replacement for a defective unit is now a re-manufactured SD unit. The failure rate for those units is much higher than it would be for a new unit. Handling those type problems is very costly to Dish. Eventual return on investment will eventually decide when the switch to 100% HD will be made. It's like a snowball rolling down hill. Maybe not 2011 but don't forget the marketing advantage of being first.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Have you read http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=185982 ?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inazsully said:


> Regarding your first point. I used the word 'WONDERING" because I am making a guess at the possibility of when while knowing the absolute of 'it will happen".


You introduced 2011 in to the equation ... to that the reply must be a firm NO. No one is talking "no SD in 2011".



> Point two. By the end of 2011, if the SD content continues to drop at a similar rate that it has during the last two years I (just me) don't see a large content loss, especially as more and more HD displays replace SD displays.


The two thoughts are unrelated. One is content availability (will everything be available in HD? No) and the other is the ability to view a HD signal (if available). Every person in the US could own three HDTVs and it wouldn't change the amount of content available.



> Point three. Existing subs and new subs requiring HD equipment (for their new HD displays) will negate a great deal of the "billion of dollars" SD receiver replacement cost you mention. Lets face it, those new HD receivers and HD DVRs are money makers for Dish. Big money makers. Lease payments plus secondary receiver charges. Dish has to be drooling at the financial windfall potential.


Pretty much everyone who signed up in the past few years is already leasing equipment from DISH ... much of it used SD equipment that cost DISH a refurb price, not a full purchase price. The lease payments on a SD receiver and HD receiver are the same ... and even if DISH replaces owned receivers with leased it doesn't increase their income. The first leased receiver is free ... the 2nd receiver mirror fee becomes a lease fee. Where is the increase in income? Offering "HD Free" is a decrease in income and the manufacturing costs of new receivers is non-trivial.



> Every SD receiver or DVR that is leased to a new sub or used as a replacement for a defective unit is now a re-manufactured SD unit. The failure rate for those units is much higher than it would be for a new unit.


As long as there are refurbs DISH can keep cycling them through.



> Handling those type problems is very costly to Dish. Eventual return on investment will eventually decide when the switch to 100% HD will be made. It's like a snowball rolling down hill. Maybe not 2011 but don't forget the marketing advantage of being first.


As noted in the other thread ... the issue isn't "everything in HD" it is "everything in MPEG4".

You're reminding me of the conversion from NTSC to ASTC last year which many pushed as a conversion to HD television ... it was a conversion to digital - not HD. The coming conversion to MPEG4 is likewise a conversion to a more robust digital - not HD.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

I do not think that the conversion from SD to HD is in any way similar to the conversion from analog to digital of a few years ago. The conversion to HD includes much better picture ( the larger the screen the more appreciated), wide screen presentation, 5.1 digital sound, not to mention that 99% of new DVD releases are designed to be viewed via wide screen. I agree that the issue is meg4 but the masses I'm trying to engage here is more familiar with the HD moniker.

I'm not trying to start an argument. But then again, I guess that anyone here that makes a statement is going to generate an argument with someone. I'm trying to invoke observations and opinions from the wide variety of knowledge based on this fun site. My opinions are based on a minimal knowledge of the inner working of Dish Network and my fairly, kind of, sort of, expert knowledge of marketing.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

inazsully said:


> My opinions are based on a minimal knowledge of the inner working of Dish Network and my fairly, kind of, sort of, expert knowledge of marketing.


I went through this in another thread recently... and a couple of times in the past.

Dish has at least 14 million customers, and most of them are still SD-only customers. Even HD customers still have SD receivers sometimes.

In order for Dish to drop all the SD feeds OR at least convert over to all MPEG4... ALL existing (or a vast majority) of SD receivers would have to be replaced with new HD-capable receivers. Otherwise, Dish would be cutting off paying customers, which makes no sense to a business.

So...

it's all speculation, but there could be 10 million or more SD receivers still in use by current Dish customers. IF you could replace those with an HD receiver that only cost $100 to manufacturer... you are talking 1 billion dollars right there.

Then you have to pay installers for many of these, shipping costs for all of these, and there may be other required equipment upgrades for customers with legacy LNBs and switches that are not compatible with the newer receivers.

You also have to have time and service people to make all of the installations AND customers have to be available for the service call.

There is no way this happens overnight or cheaply.

And I am probably guessing low on the number of SD receivers... and probably lowballing the cost of the hardware too.

That's ultimately why this will not happen anytime soon.

Any other discussion about whether it should happen and discussing the benefits is secondary... The sheer cost and amount of time + man-hours is why this is not a quick fix.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

inazsully said:


> I do not think that the conversion from SD to HD is in any way similar to the conversion from analog to digital of a few years ago.


I believe you missed the point.

The confusion you're expressing is similar to the confusion expressed by those who called the DTV (NTSC to ATSC) conversion a "conversion to HD." It was a conversion to digital.

The core conversion that DISH (and DirecTV) need to do is not to HD it is to MPEG4. Converting to MPEG4 allows more channels per transponder. It also allows HD and will (eventually) allow DISH to turn off the SD versions of anything that is carried in HD. In that way it is very much like the DTV conversion. The conversion to MPEG4 is just a better digital ... not HD ... but it opens the door for HD.



> I agree that the issue is meg4 but the masses I'm trying to engage here is more familiar with the HD moniker.


The masses are confused enough. It doesn't help that the answer to the question of "when will SD go away" is "when everyone has an MPEG4 receiver". But DISH still broadcasts SD versions of all their AEP channels on Eastern Arc. So DISH could be 100% MPEG4 and still have duplicate HD and SD versions. (DISH does pull the SD versions of local channels on EA when a HD version is made available, but not the national channels.)


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

inazsully said:


> I agree that the issue is meg4 but the masses I'm trying to engage here is more familiar with the HD moniker.


But you giving incorrect information. You can have HD with MPG2. Much like the conversion from analog to HDTV, it is all about the hardware required. Old analog TVs can not receive digital TV and old MPG2 SD receivers can not receive the newer MPG4 transmissions. You can and will have SD channels in MPG4 but the older MPG2 only SD receivers will not be able to view them.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

You are asking too much from *marketing *guy, he is not tech savvy person.
Regardless of tech or cost value, those kind of ppl will try to sell you anything include not that close product or service.


> my fairly, kind of, sort of, expert knowledge of marketing


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

P Smith said:


> You are asking too much from *marketing *guy, he is not tech savvy person.


I've dealt with marketing and sales guys... and I know they sometimes aren't tech savvy.

That's why I've tried to put some dollar amounts to it... but that hasn't seemed to work either.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

> , and there may be other required equipment upgrades for customers with legacy LNBs and switches that are not compatible with the newer receivers.


DishPro receivers do work with legacy LNBs and switches.

The issue here is that MPEG-4 receivers are HD-ready (sales opp), MPEG-2 receivers are typically connected to a Dish 500, and much of DishHD is on a 3rd satellite location, so swapping the dish at the same time as the receiver makes sense.


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