# HD blurring during football games



## psymn (Aug 12, 2007)

I have noticed that during football games, from time to time it appears that a large section of the field will blur or lose resolution, but the rest of the picture is still sharp. This usually affects the green areas of the field and can change instantly back and forth. 

What causes this to happen? I have noticed it on both my 58" panasonic plasma and 52" sharp LCD so I don't think it is a issue of one TV or technology.

Could it be a broadcast issue?

Thanks,
Matt


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## ralphfurley (Jun 12, 2004)

I have noticed that as well...im using 30inch LG CRT HDTV.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Compression, baby. You're watching compression in action. Yes, it is a broadcast issue.


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## psymn (Aug 12, 2007)

ggergm said:


> Compression, baby. You're watching compression in action. Yes, it is a broadcast issue.


Is it specific to the local station or should I expect to see this on all HD broadcasts?

Are there any channels that have superior compression techniques/equipment?

Thanks,
Matt


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## NR4P (Jan 16, 2007)

If you are watching CBS HD or NBC HD and see background pixelation during fast moving sports scenes it's normal. Thats 1080i.

If you are watching ESPN, ABC or FOX, you should see very little background pixelation during fast moving sports scenes. That's 720p.

For all formats, you will see some blurring from time to time. If the camera is at top of stadium and they zoom in on a player, thats normal photography. The focus is very sharp on the player but not the background.

All in all, 99% of what you watch should be crystal clear, with only an exception from time to time.

If your getting something different than what I've described, please comment back.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

It depends on the game. The Stanford-Notre Dame game on ESPN today had a horrible amount of compression. I think they were using plain bad equipment for that game. Other games look fine, 1080i or 720p. I especially like CBS' NFL broadcasts for clarity.

You can do hi-def well or cheaply. Watch a premier broadcast, like a really big game, and you'll probably see excellent HD.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Record a CBS, NBC, ABC, or Fox game via DIRECTV satellite and via your OTA.

Wait until you see what you've been missing.

- Craig


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Record a CBS, NBC, ABC, or Fox game via DIRECTV satellite and via your OTA.
> 
> Wait until you see what you've been missing.
> 
> - Craig


OK, from a non-HDTV viewer, which is better? I've read that OTA HD runs rings around satellite-delivered HD. True?


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

I have noticed on Turkey day that when the game came on right after a commercial the screen was blurry/out of focus for a sec.


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## psymn (Aug 12, 2007)

NR4P said:


> If you are watching CBS HD or NBC HD and see background pixelation during fast moving sports scenes it's normal. Thats 1080i.
> 
> All in all, 99% of what you watch should be crystal clear, with only an exception from time to time.
> 
> If your getting something different than what I've described, please comment back.


The compression argument makes sense. I had not considered it a huge factor until now though. Today I was watching Georgia @ Georgia Tech on ABC (720p right?).

I see this problem when watching football games and usually in wide shots of the line of scrimmage. This is when both teams are lined up and the shot is pulled back to show the receivers at the edges of the screen. In areas of the field without players, where the turf is in good shape (not many scabs and holes), large blurred areas will flash in and out.

I could see this being part of a compression scheme that determines this area to be a non-essential and applies heavier compression. Would the same broadcast OTA be better?

-Matt


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

psymn said:


> I see this problem when watching football games and usually in wide shots of the line of scrimmage. This is when both teams are lined up and the shot is pulled back to show the receivers at the edges of the screen. In areas of the field without players, where the turf is in good shape (not many scabs and holes), large blurred areas will flash in and out.
> 
> I could see this being part of a compression scheme that determines this area to be a non-essential and applies heavier compression. Would the same broadcast OTA be better?
> 
> -Matt


Maybe, maybe not. If your OTA has subchannels, it could still have the problem. In many areas, the MPEG4 sat locals are close enough to the OTA that there is no discernable difference. Not everywhere, though.

There are so many places a signal can get compressed or messed up. From the optics to the cameras, to the backhaul to the distribution system to the local channel to the tranmission to the distributor (like DirecTV) to DirecTV to the satellite to your box to your connections to your TV.

A way to determine where it might be is to compare two sources. If you look at the OTA, it may tell you if it is further down in the link.


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## Racer88 (Sep 13, 2006)

maybe you need to get the mirrors......



/end DLP commercial


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## DarkAudit (Sep 10, 2007)

ggergm said:


> It depends on the game. The Stanford-Notre Dame game on ESPN today had a horrible amount of compression. I think they were using plain bad equipment for that game.


They're called the ND offense.


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## ChrisQ (Sep 8, 2007)

ThomasM said:


> OK, from a non-HDTV viewer, which is better? I've read that OTA HD runs rings around satellite-delivered HD. True?


Yes the difference between OTA HD and local channels on Directv is pretty big.

However, the difference between OTA HD and the new channels is negligible. I believe this is because the local channels on Directv are still mpeg2 while the OTA signals and all the new HD channels are mpeg4.


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## saleen351 (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't buy into the specific channel for your issue. I see it come and go. I also see it from different cameras at the same game. I first really saw it watching golf, the grass would fade in and out of focus.


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## shotdisc98 (May 7, 2007)

Unfortunately, football can suffer from compression issues. Many of the issues come from the broadcast facility. For example, if your local affiliate, NBC/CBS/FOX has any subchannels, the subchannels take away bandwidth from the main broadcast channel. Our local CBS station used to broadcast at 15mb bandwidth MPEG2 and picture suffered during replays, panning shots, etc. Now, the station eliminated the subchannel and boosted bandwidth to the max of 18mb and games look amazing, both OTA and DirecTV MPEG4. Resolution only affects some of it as 720p takes less bandwidth to broadcast. But, high quality 1080i, such as the new MPEG4 coming from DirecTV, with more efficient transmission, looks stunning with less bandwidth. Check out the posts regarding the quality of the NFL Network on Thanksgiving. When it's all said and done, it comes down to compression of the feed from the network.
In reference to the golf viewing, golf broadcasts still mix SD and HD cameras, depending on the shots. That's why some shots don't look so great when others allow you to count the blades of grass on the green.


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## Ext 721 (Feb 26, 2007)

psymn said:


> The compression argument makes sense. I had not considered it a huge factor until now though. Today I was watching Georgia @ Georgia Tech on ABC (720p right?).
> 
> I see this problem when watching football games and usually in wide shots of the line of scrimmage. This is when both teams are lined up and the shot is pulled back to show the receivers at the edges of the screen. In areas of the field without players, where the turf is in good shape (not many scabs and holes), large blurred areas will flash in and out.
> 
> ...


Large blocks of color in a digital format WILL go buggy. Sometimes it's the compression discarding miniscule differences to conserve space, sometime's it's the graphics engine on the TV trying to make sense of things. (I'm not guru enough to know why a TV needs a 3-d graphics engine....)

I have been in the TV section and observed an identical signal on different televisions responding quite differently to large blocks of similar or same color. Some will go to blocks of color, some will attempt to find lines to draw, some will go fuzzy.

MY tv seems to add some color to pure black during the credits to movies. It is attempting to "flesh out" the picture..trying to upconvert, so to speak. It's an LCD, so I know it's not a matter of pixel leakage, especially when it appears to be dots.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

psymn said:


> I have noticed that during football games, from time to time it appears that a large section of the field will blur or lose resolution, but the rest of the picture is still sharp. This usually affects the green areas of the field and can change instantly back and forth.
> 
> What causes this to happen? I have noticed it on both my 58" panasonic plasma and 52" sharp LCD so I don't think it is a issue of one TV or technology.
> 
> ...


Be sure and run your DirecTV receiver in native mode or change the output resolution to 720p when watching sports broadcast in 720p, if you have a native 768 or 1080p display. There's no point in interlacing a native 720p signal (Fox, ESPN) in your receiver and then de-interlacing it again in your TV. Many TV's do not have good motion adaptive de-interlacing, and this will appear as "motion blur." Always do as little video processing as possible. You can always set your receiver back to "Native Off" (or "1080i output only") after the game is over, if you object to the additional delay required for channel changing.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Last night's Kansas/Missouri game off air looked excellent, with no compression artifacts.

I really think ESPN sent their good gear to the high profile network game and the oldest, crappiest equipment they own to the Stanford/Notre Dame game. I've got to believe that is at least part of the problem.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

psymn said:


> I have noticed that during football games, from time to time it appears that a large section of the field will blur or lose resolution, but the rest of the picture is still sharp. This usually affects the green areas of the field and can change instantly back and forth.
> 
> What causes this to happen? I have noticed it on both my 58" panasonic plasma and 52" sharp LCD so I don't think it is a issue of one TV or technology.
> 
> Could it be a broadcast issue?


If you are seeing this on CBS and NBC then its a setting in the encoder. The adaptive filtering setting needs to be fixed. Go to avs and search those terms.


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## Blitz68 (Apr 19, 2006)

ThomasM said:


> OK, from a non-HDTV viewer, which is better? I've read that OTA HD runs rings around satellite-delivered HD. True?


No. I have OTA and DirecTV locals. You cannot tell the difference.


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## bigref (Sep 11, 2007)

Guys, its not an compression issue at all. And you all are supposed to know what you are talking about. LCD's tv 's have suffered with this"lag" time for a while. The new LCD's have 120MHz refresh rates which greatly eliminate the blurring. DLP's and Plasma do not suffer this lag.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Ummm - I saw the lag on my new Panasonic plasma yesterday watching the Stanford/Notre Dame game. 

Yes, LCDs suffer lag but what I saw was compression. Try being a C-SPAN junkie. I am. D* compresses the holy s**t out of C-SPAN and that's an SD channel. Brian Lamb's tie only comes into focus when he stops moving.


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## ChrisQ (Sep 8, 2007)

Blitz68 said:


> No. I have OTA and DirecTV locals. You cannot tell the difference.


Assuming you live near Madison or Green Bay, Directv broadcasts your locals in mpeg4 since they only went online at the end of last year. Therefore in your particular case, there is no difference. 
If you live anywhere that has had locals for a while, you get them in mpeg2, and next to the OTA's, the difference is huge.

The guy asking the question lives in WI, so I guess he's good


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## psymn (Aug 12, 2007)

bigref said:


> Guys, its not an compression issue at all. And you all are supposed to know what you are talking about. LCD's tv 's have suffered with this"lag" time for a while. The new LCD's have 120MHz refresh rates which greatly eliminate the blurring. DLP's and Plasma do not suffer this lag.


I have both LCD and plasma and I can see the same issue on both TVs. The issue has nothing to do with motion, but rather large blocks of green field becoming cloudy for no reason.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

bigref said:


> Guys, its not an compression issue at all. And you all are supposed to know what you are talking about. LCD's tv 's have suffered with this"lag" time for a while. The new LCD's have 120MHz refresh rates which greatly eliminate the blurring. DLP's and Plasma do not suffer this lag.


Wow, I don't know what I am talking about? Then why do I see this issue with LCD's happen on my RPTV? How could that even happen if it only happens on LCD's?

Why don't we have the OP come back and let us know which channels he sees it on, which programs, exactly what happens, which provider, and what kind of tv he has.


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## davring (Jan 13, 2007)

bigref said:


> Guys, its not an compression issue at all. And you all are supposed to know what you are talking about. LCD's tv 's have suffered with this"lag" time for a while. The new LCD's have 120MHz refresh rates which greatly eliminate the blurring. DLP's and Plasma do not suffer this lag.


60MHz/120MHz is not noticable to the human eye. These sets have been tested, and although they are faster refreshing, can only be measured in the lab. 1/60th of a second is pretty quick, I doubt anyone could tell the difference.


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## bt-rtp (Dec 30, 2005)

psymn said:


> I have both LCD and plasma and I can see the same issue on both TVs. The issue has nothing to do with motion, but rather large blocks of green field becoming cloudy for no reason.


This could be the result of the displays not being able to render the color. I.e. the HD camera is capturing grass colors that your displays can't produce. This was a common problem with the first generation of flat panel HD displays.

What are the brands and models of the LCD and plasma that you own ?


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## Badger (Jan 31, 2006)

Blitz68 said:


> No. I have OTA and DirecTV locals. You cannot tell the difference.


Same here! I switch back and forth once in a while to check and both are excellent!


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## psymn (Aug 12, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> Wow, I don't know what I am talking about? Then why do I see this issue with LCD's happen on my RPTV? How could that even happen if it only happens on LCD's?
> 
> Why don't we have the OP come back and let us know which channels he sees it on, which programs, exactly what happens, which provider, and what kind of tv he has.


I've seen the issue during many college football games this season. I know that yesterday's game was on Atlanta's ABC affiliate WSB.



bt-rtp said:


> This could be the result of the displays not being able to render the color. I.e. the HD camera is capturing grass colors that your displays can't produce. This was a common problem with the first generation of flat panel HD displays.
> 
> What are the brands and models of the LCD and plasma that you own ?


I have a Sharp LC-52D62u and a panasonic TH-58pz700u.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

psymn said:


> I've seen the issue during many college football games this season. I know that yesterday's game was on Atlanta's ABC affiliate WSB.


Does your affiliate multicast? Do you see it on CBS and NBC? Is it the entire screen or just small sections? Is there action in that area? Do you see it both OTA and from D*?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

ChrisQ said:


> Assuming you live near Madison or Green Bay, Directv broadcasts your locals in mpeg4 since they only went online at the end of last year. Therefore in your particular case, there is no difference.
> If you live anywhere that has had locals for a while, you get them in mpeg2, and next to the OTA's, the difference is huge.
> 
> The guy asking the question lives in WI, so I guess he's good


You are repeating incorrect information. There are very few HD locals in MPEG2. The LA and NY markets are in MPEG2. There may be one or two others but the rest are in MPEG4. YOUR locals are in MPEG4. They are not receivable on older equipment despite being on the satellites the older receivers can see. They are MPEG4. (I know, I get Baltimore locals. And they are virtually the same as OTA.)


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## psymn (Aug 12, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> Does your affiliate multicast? Do you see it on CBS and NBC? Is it the entire screen or just small sections? Is there action in that area? Do you see it both OTA and from D*?


Don't know about OTA, I only have DirecTV connected. There is an antenna from the previous owner on the side of my house, but it is not connected.

The area in question is away from the players and there is no action. This leads me to believe that it could be due to compression loss.


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## bigref (Sep 11, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> Wow, I don't know what I am talking about? Then why do I see this issue with LCD's happen on my RPTV? How could that even happen if it only happens on LCD's?
> 
> If your RPTV is anything but a CRT it will still happen. Watching the Ravens game on CBS now. I had the blurring on my LCD RPTV but not on my CRT direct view


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

bigref said:


> If your RPTV is anything but a CRT it will still happen. Watching the Ravens game on CBS now. I had the blurring on my LCD RPTV but not on my CRT direct view


It's on my CRT RPTV in addition to LCD.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

NR4P said:


> If you are watching CBS HD or NBC HD and see background pixelation during fast moving sports scenes it's normal. Thats 1080i.
> 
> If you are watching ESPN, ABC or FOX, you should see very little background pixelation during fast moving sports scenes. That's 720p.
> 
> ...


It's not a 720p vs 1080i thing. They only differ in the temporal and spatial resolution of the images produced after decompression. In fact, both have the same data rates and have similar pixel rates.

If you had no compression artifacts, then the 720p image would be showing more temporal resolution than the 1080i image. But in this case, neither is showing its full potential resolution because the compressed data stream doesn't contain enough data to fully resolve every pixel in every frame.


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## KurtV (Dec 21, 2006)

Some of the disagreement here is almost certainly caused by the fact that we're using imperfect descriptions of what we're seeing to discuss this. There are many problems with HD PQ and multiple terms are used to describe each of those problems. Some of the problems are limited to certain display technologies, but the terms used to discuss those problems are sometimes shared with other problems.

Imprecise language leads to disagreement.


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## Sing1gniS (Jan 14, 2007)

I've noticed this on CBS games only. The picture will be perfect (motion or not) then for about 2 seconds it will blur and then back to normal. It happens numerous times throuhout the game. Funny thing is, it doesn't happen any other shows.


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## PlanetBill (May 8, 2006)

I notice way more issues with CBS games over Sat than OTA. At times even regular CBS shows can be annoying to watch, OTA not as bad. Of course my local CBS multicast and doesn't even have DD5.1  

I feel there is significant compression going on, especially with 1080i broadcast, and probably at more than one hop along the way (regarding D*).


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