# Going from an R15 to an R10



## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Moving from an R15 to an R10 – an evaluation.

There have been a great many posts from people who are used to the R10 and/or other TiVo based dvr’s who have tried the R15. Because of the differences, most have expressed varying degrees of dissatisfaction with the R15.

Well, I’m going the other direction. I have never owned or used a TiVo dvr before. I started with a pair of R15’s, and then decided to try an R10 just to see what it would be like going the opposite direction. I’ve been using my R15’s for about 5 weeks now, which is long enough to get used to them and how they work. I’ve been using the R10 for just a couple of hours at the time of this writing. Both R10 and R15 are stock, out of the box condition.

1.	Installation and activation. Installation was easy and straightforward, except for the inconvenience of having to do the phone dialing setup. That was kind of screwy and is not something you have to do on the R15. Activation was a pain in the posterior, thanks to a group of clueless D* CSR’s. It took me 5 phone calls and 3 hours on the phone before the DVR functions were activated properly. When the R15 first came out, everyone had a problem getting those activated (as the process is different than the R10). Now that D* CSR’s are all used to activating R15’s, they seem to have instantly forgotten how to get an R10 going. Oh well. That’s not an issue with the R10 itself.

2.	The remote. Well it certainly is different than the new standardized DTV remote, and because I am used to the DTV remote, I found the peanut to be cumbersome and unfamiliar. There has been a lot of discussion about “intuitive” operations. I don’t think either the R15 or the R10 (dvr’s or remotes) are “intuitive”. Both require learning, and what you are used to certainly influences your perception of how easy, hard, or “intuitive” the dvr or remote is. Because I have two R15’s and two D11’s that use the D* remote, I would much prefer that to the peanut. Standardization across all my equipment would be nice.

3.	Mix channels. Don’t work properly on the R10. Can’t move highlight between them, select the one you want for audio, etc. They do work properly on the R15.

4.	The Guide. In general, I don’t find much difference between the guide display. I rather like the small picture window where you retain live video on the R15, which isn’t present on the R10. Both offer a form of a list view which are comparable. As for the amount of information presented, the R10 has more in the basic guide view, but with the R15 if you press info you then get the same program description as is presented on the R10 (based on a quick sample of a dozen or so program listings in the guide). The R15 lets you skip forward or backward 12 hours using the red and green buttons. I have not found a way to do a large time jump like that on the R10. Overall, the R15 gets my nod for the guide.

5.	Dual tuners. Both have dual tuners, and both are capable of recording two shows, or watching one and recording another. The R10 has dual live 30 minute buffers. The R15 has a single live 90 minute buffer. The R10 buffers keep going when you toggle tuners. The R15 loses its buffer the moment you go to any other display or function. The R10 gets the nod on this one. I’m not really sure how much I will use the dual buffers, but I agree it is nice to have them. And for the buffer to keep recording while you switch to the other tuner, or go to watch something that was recorded. As for 30 versus 90 minutes, I’ve never used more than about 10 minutes worth of buffer on the R15, so 30 would seem to be sufficient, at least for me.

6.	Search / Find a program. I did a search for Star Trek Deep Space Nine on both dvr’s. The R15 found 16 episodes. The R10 found one episode. I thought maybe the guide had not populated yet on the R10, so I went to the applicable channel and scrolled forward in time to where the second episode was (which the R15 found but the R10 did not), and it was showing in the guide on the R10. Need to do a lot more comparing on this, but at the moment, and based on only one attempt, the R15 came out head. The process was comparable on the two machines, it was neither easier nor harder on one versus the other, but a little different. Oh yeah – the R15 kept the program going in the small window while the R10 blanked the program and audio. R15 wins on that feature.

7.	Manual record. The R15 lets you specify the exact start and end time. The R10 goes in 5 minute increments. Otherwise, they both seem to allow this function. Minor edge to the R15.

8.	Another comment on “intuitive”. I had to go to the index in the manual to find out where to look to find out how to get to the to-do list on the R10. I never would have stumbled onto it just using the remote. Certainly not intuitive, at least for me. Of course, the same is true for the R15, you need to RTFM to figure out how to do it. Toss up.

9.	Active channel. The R15 has it. The R10 does not.

10.	The real R15 faults. They are there. Primarily the first run versus repeat, and the limits on the to-do and prioritizer. So far, those have not impacted me, but I acknowledge they are real problems that need real solutions, real soon. Just for grins, I went back and read old threads on the R10 when it first came out. Guess what, it had problems too. No argument the R10 is more stable and works better on the basic tasks of recording shows, but it has had quite a while to get there. Compare the R15 in 3 or 6 months and see where we’re at. That does not excuse DirecTV for pushing it to market too soon, or forgive the problems that it has, but I think we need to look at things in the proper perspective.

11. Silly sounds. Is there a way to turn off the stupid little sounds the R10 makes when you use the remote? Very annoying.

In conclusion: I like both the R10 and the R15. Overall, I think I like the R15 a little better, as it has several features not present on the R10 that I have become used to, such as keeping the video and audio going in a window while you are in the guide or menus, etc., the mix channels, and the active channel. Now if I were going the other direction, then I would undoubtedly feel just the opposite, preferring the R10 for features it has that I was used to. At this point, I do not think the R15 deserves the very bad reputation and reviews that TiVo users are bestowing on it. I’ll update my opinion in a week or so after I’ve used the R10 further.

Carl


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

carl6 said:


> Moving from an R15 to an R10 - an evaluation.
> 4.	The Guide. In general, I don't find much difference between the guide display. I rather like the small picture window where you retain live video on the R15, which isn't present on the R10. Both offer a form of a list view which are comparable. As for the amount of information presented, the R10 has more in the basic guide view, but with the R15 if you press info you then get the same program description as is presented on the R10 (based on a quick sample of a dozen or so program listings in the guide). The R15 lets you skip forward or backward 12 hours using the red and green buttons. I have not found a way to do a large time jump like that on the R10. Overall, the R15 gets my nod for the guide.


Now which guide are you using on the R10? You can choose between two different versions. Most users seem to prefer the list guide versus the grid guide mainly due to the speed. One way to jump time is while viewing guide, you can press enter and change the time you are browsing.



carl6 said:


> 6.	Search / Find a program. I did a search for Star Trek Deep Space Nine on both dvr's. The R15 found 16 episodes. The R10 found one episode. I thought maybe the guide had not populated yet on the R10, so I went to the applicable channel and scrolled forward in time to where the second episode was (which the R15 found but the R10 did not), and it was showing in the guide on the R10. Need to do a lot more comparing on this, but at the moment, and based on only one attempt, the R15 came out head. The process was comparable on the two machines, it was neither easier nor harder on one versus the other, but a little different. Oh yeah - the R15 kept the program going in the small window while the R10 blanked the program and audio. R15 wins on that feature.


Now it does truly take about 48 hours to fully populate the guide data. After about 2-3 you can usually enter season passes but it still won't find the episodes. It seems to populate seperately, for example you may see shows in the guide but not be able to find them if you search by title, which is why you aren't seeing all episodes. I currently show 16 episodes on my view upcoming on my Tivo.



carl6 said:


> 8.	Another comment on "intuitive". I had to go to the index in the manual to find out where to look to find out how to get to the to-do list on the R10. I never would have stumbled onto it just using the remote. Certainly not intuitive, at least for me. Of course, the same is true for the R15, you need to RTFM to figure out how to do it. Toss up.


I guess it also depends on how you enter shows, because you are the first person I have seen to have this problem. Personally I always go to Pick Programs to Record, then Search by Title or Record by Time or Channel so I never found I had to look in the manual where to find upcoming shows since it is at the bottom of that screen. I don't remember if I did for the R-15 either though. Again I think it falls back on if you are using the DVR to record for you or to enhance your live tv experience. If you always add from the guide, no you wouldn't see the screen without looking.



carl6 said:


> 10.	The real R15 faults. They are there. Primarily the first run versus repeat, and the limits on the to-do and prioritizer. So far, those have not impacted me, but I acknowledge they are real problems that need real solutions, real soon. Just for grins, I went back and read old threads on the R10 when it first came out. Guess what, it had problems too. No argument the R10 is more stable and works better on the basic tasks of recording shows, but it has had quite a while to get there. Compare the R15 in 3 or 6 months and see where we're at. That does not excuse DirecTV for pushing it to market too soon, or forgive the problems that it has, but I think we need to look at things in the proper perspective.


I think my biggest problem with this is 50 doesn't even cover the primetime shows we record in my house. I hit 50 before even adding shows that were starting back up this week when I was setting up my R-15. 


carl6 said:


> 11. Silly sounds. Is there a way to turn off the stupid little sounds the R10 makes when you use the remote? Very annoying.


Messages and setup
Settings
Audio
Sound effects volume.
Personally I use mine, mainly for those times when you wonder if the button press went through, which I find happening to me all the time on the R-15. That is not to say they are unresponsive, but I have them in a spot that doesn't always pick up the remote.



carl6 said:


> In conclusion: I like both the R10 and the R15. Overall, I think I like the R15 a little better, as it has several features not present on the R10 that I have become used to, such as keeping the video and audio going in a window while you are in the guide or menus, etc., the mix channels, and the active channel. Now if I were going the other direction, then I would undoubtedly feel just the opposite, preferring the R10 for features it has that I was used to. At this point, I do not think the R15 deserves the very bad reputation and reviews that TiVo users are bestowing on it. I'll update my opinion in a week or so after I've used the R10 further.
> 
> Carl


To me it sounds more like you are all about the live tv experience, which then I think the R15 would be better for you. I very rarely watch live tv. I always have something on Tivo I would rather watch and for me Tivo wins out on recorded programming. Never having the mini window while in the guide I don't even notice it on the R-15, but then I tend to pause live tv anytime I go to do something such as schedule a recording or anything else. Same with the mix channels, I don't even know what channels they are on. I think in some sense you are right that the R-15 doesn't deserve the scathing reviews it has gotten, but then again if we are finding this many issues from release why didn't the testers.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Carl,

While watching a recorded program, on the R10 remote hit Select/Play/Select/3/0/Select. You will hear a couple of bings. From that point on the "skip" button on the remote skips 30 seconds. I love that to get through commercials on recorded shows. 3 minute commercial, press skip 6 times and see where you are. If you overshot, hit the back button a time or two.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

carl6 said:


> 6.	Search / Find a program. I did a search for Star Trek Deep Space Nine on both dvr's. The R15 found 16 episodes. The R10 found one episode. I thought maybe the guide had not populated yet on the R10, so I went to the applicable channel and scrolled forward in time to where the second episode was (which the R15 found but the R10 did not), and it was showing in the guide on the R10.


I don't know how the R15 handles this, but TiVo only shows one hit per channel in the list (as it should be IMO). It will show all hits using "View Upcoming Episodes" on the details page.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Brennok said:


> Now which guide are you using on the R10? You can choose between two different versions. Most users seem to prefer the list guide versus the grid guide mainly due to the speed. One way to jump time is while viewing guide, you can press enter and change the time you are browsing.


Actually I used both, however I prefer the grid guide (on both) to the list guide for general use. I switch to the list guide at times when it better serves my need. The List format is also available on the R15.
-
Carl


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

walters said:


> I don't know how the R15 handles this, but TiVo only shows one hit per channel in the list (as it should be IMO). It will show all hits using "View Upcoming Episodes" on the details page.


I did use view upcoming episodes. However I acknowledge my experience may well be related to the guide not fully populating yet. I would really be surprised if the R10 came up short on this once the guide is full, and I know what I'm doing.
-
Carl


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

Thanks carl for the informative comparison. I really hate the R15 in it's current state and believe I am too emotional to write a fair comparison between the two units but I believe you have done just that. I look forward to any updates you can provide once you have more time spent with the R10.



carl6 said:


> 1.	Installation and activation. Installation was easy and straightforward, except for the inconvenience of having to do the phone dialing setup. That was kind of screwy and is not something you have to do on the R15. Activation was a pain in the posterior, thanks to a group of clueless D* CSR's. It took me 5 phone calls and 3 hours on the phone before the DVR functions were activated properly. When the R15 first came out, everyone had a problem getting those activated (as the process is different than the R10). Now that D* CSR's are all used to activating R15's, they seem to have instantly forgotten how to get an R10 going. Oh well. That's not an issue with the R10 itself.


Phone dialing is a pain in the butt. A major improvement with the R15.


carl6 said:


> 2.	The remote. Well it certainly is different than the new standardized DTV remote, and because I am used to the DTV remote, I found the peanut to be cumbersome and unfamiliar. There has been a lot of discussion about "intuitive" operations. I don't think either the R15 or the R10 (dvr's or remotes) are "intuitive". Both require learning, and what you are used to certainly influences your perception of how easy, hard, or "intuitive" the dvr or remote is. Because I have two R15's and two D11's that use the D* remote, I would much prefer that to the peanut. Standardization across all my equipment would be nice.


I never use the peanut remote. I have a hamony 659 that runs all my HT equipment and works great with the R10. Because of the "non-standard" R15 remote, I have not found a good way to program the color buttons into my harmony. I also have a comcast 6412 and I have the transport buttons for both DVRs (R10 & 6412) assigned to the same buttons. No matter which DVR I select on my harmony, the button assignments are virtually the same. The inexplicable uniqueness of the R15 remote has rendered my harmony useless. I am forced to use the R15 remote which I hate.


carl6 said:


> 3.	Mix channels. Don't work properly on the R10. Can't move highlight between them, select the one you want for audio, etc. They do work properly on the R15.


I like to show the mix channels to friends when they come over and they are just like me when I first played with them on my D10, "ooohhh, cooooool !!!". That is the only time I use these channels. Worthless feature to me.


carl6 said:


> 4.	The Guide. In general, I don't find much difference between the guide display. I rather like the small picture window where you retain live video on the R15, which isn't present on the R10. Both offer a form of a list view which are comparable. As for the amount of information presented, the R10 has more in the basic guide view, but with the R15 if you press info you then get the same program description as is presented on the R10 (based on a quick sample of a dozen or so program listings in the guide). The R15 lets you skip forward or backward 12 hours using the red and green buttons. I have not found a way to do a large time jump like that on the R10. Overall, the R15 gets my nod for the guide.


I hate both guides but I don't often use either guide because for me, the DVR is for timeshifting and not watching live TV.


carl6 said:


> 5.	Dual tuners. Both have dual tuners, and both are capable of recording two shows, or watching one and recording another. The R10 has dual live 30 minute buffers. The R15 has a single live 90 minute buffer. The R10 buffers keep going when you toggle tuners. The R15 loses its buffer the moment you go to any other display or function. The R10 gets the nod on this one. I'm not really sure how much I will use the dual buffers, but I agree it is nice to have them. And for the buffer to keep recording while you switch to the other tuner, or go to watch something that was recorded. As for 30 versus 90 minutes, I've never used more than about 10 minutes worth of buffer on the R15, so 30 would seem to be sufficient, at least for me.


Again I don't worry too much about the buffers because I rarely watch live tv but the R15 needs to get this dual tuner thing fixed.


carl6 said:


> 6.	Search / Find a program. I did a search for Star Trek Deep Space Nine on both dvr's. The R15 found 16 episodes. The R10 found one episode. I thought maybe the guide had not populated yet on the R10, so I went to the applicable channel and scrolled forward in time to where the second episode was (which the R15 found but the R10 did not), and it was showing in the guide on the R10. Need to do a lot more comparing on this, but at the moment, and based on only one attempt, the R15 came out head. The process was comparable on the two machines, it was neither easier nor harder on one versus the other, but a little different. Oh yeah - the R15 kept the program going in the small window while the R10 blanked the program and audio. R15 wins on that feature.


I have done several comparisons between the R10 & R15 and the R10 is 100% accurate. The R15 loads up a bunch of extraneous programs that have no rhyme nor reason to be included in the search. A major flaw in the R15. I have the small window on the comcast 6412 iGuide too and when I got my HD Tivo I was happy to see it didn't have this feature. It spoils the show or sporting event if you stop playing a recording and up pops the mini window and shows you a show spoiler or the score.


carl6 said:


> 7.	Manual record. The R15 lets you specify the exact start and end time. The R10 goes in 5 minute increments. Otherwise, they both seem to allow this function. Minor edge to the R15.


Not a big deal for me now but still a weakness in the R10.


carl6 said:


> 8.	Another comment on "intuitive". I had to go to the index in the manual to find out where to look to find out how to get to the to-do list on the R10. I never would have stumbled onto it just using the remote. Certainly not intuitive, at least for me. Of course, the same is true for the R15, you need to RTFM to figure out how to do it. Toss up.


Navigate through the menu and you find the To Do list easily on the R10. OTOH, You need to be in a particular menu and then press one of the four colored buttons to bring up the To Do list on the R15. R10 wins easily here.


carl6 said:


> 9.	Active channel. The R15 has it. The R10 does not.


Another "gee whiz" feature that I never use.


carl6 said:


> 10.	The real R15 faults. They are there. Primarily the first run versus repeat, and the limits on the to-do and prioritizer. So far, those have not impacted me, but I acknowledge they are real problems that need real solutions, real soon. Just for grins, I went back and read old threads on the R10 when it first came out. Guess what, it had problems too. No argument the R10 is more stable and works better on the basic tasks of recording shows, but it has had quite a while to get there. Compare the R15 in 3 or 6 months and see where we're at. That does not excuse DirecTV for pushing it to market too soon, or forgive the problems that it has, but I think we need to look at things in the proper perspective.


I will not let D* off the hook for releasing such a buggy DVR.


carl6 said:


> 11. Silly sounds. Is there a way to turn off the stupid little sounds the R10 makes when you use the remote? Very annoying.


Silly but easily shut off. I never use them


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

You don't have to hit any colored button to get into the todo list. I think I have used the colored buttons 2 or 3 times and those are when I want to take a shorcut to get to a tab instead of scrolling around with the nav buttons.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

What does the "Active" button do?


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

TODO is just 2 buttons LIST and "Yellow". Or Menu, Settings, TODO. Not really difficult at all.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> What does the "Active" button do?


Brings up the "interactive" MIX channel's for sports, news and kids. Local Weather, previews, etc. Lottery, Horoscopes and takes the trash out. (only kidding on the last one)


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## tall1 (Aug 9, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> TODO is just 2 buttons LIST and "Yellow". Or Menu, Settings, TODO. Not really difficult at all.


Hmmm, not that big a deal. I also did a bit of research on remote central and one guy posted http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-harmony/thread.cgi?keywords=3246&highlight=r15 he set the LCD keys on his harmony to Red, Blue, Yellow and Green. This may have solved a major gripe I have with the white remote.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

I've got a MX500 that I'm going to take my DTivo off and put the R15 on as I did not care for the peanut and like the ease of use of the MX500 with my CD/DVD/Receiver/Tape Deck all at hand and backlit.


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## zortapa (Nov 16, 2005)

ISWIZ said:


> TODO is just 2 buttons LIST and "Yellow". Or Menu, Settings, TODO. Not really difficult at all.


ISWIZ - I cannot get to my TODO list using your second method. On my R15, I have to go through MENU -> SETTINGS -> SCHEDULER -> TODO LIST. While this still is not difficult, I am wondering why my R15 is different from yours......

-Eric


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

And let me update on the find issue. Did the same find (Star Trek) today that I did yesterday and the R10 returned all the episodes. I expected that, just had to wait for the guide to populate properly.
-
Carl


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

zortapa said:


> ISWIZ - I cannot get to my TODO list using your second method. On my R15, I have to go through MENU -> SETTINGS -> SCHEDULER -> TODO LIST. While this still is not difficult, I am wondering why my R15 is different from yours......
> 
> -Eric


My is like ISWIZ...

When you go into your "LIST" underneath the preview window... Do you see a "key" guide, telling you what the keys do... You should see YELLOW -> ToDo

Also check to see if you are at version 109a (that is the latest)


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

zortapa said:


> ISWIZ - I cannot get to my TODO list using your second method. On my R15, I have to go through MENU -> SETTINGS -> SCHEDULER -> TODO LIST. While this still is not difficult, I am wondering why my R15 is different from yours......
> 
> -Eric


My bad. At work and I missed a button. As Earl said' "I need an R15 at work".


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## ingvey (Jan 1, 2005)

thanks for the compare . Does anyone know if commercial skip woks on the 15 model?


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## Malibu13 (Sep 12, 2004)

ingvey, Welcome to DBSTalk.  

At this point, there is no "30 second skip" feature on the R15. It has been "rumored" that this feature could be possibly added in a future "software update" but no specific date has been announced.


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