# "The CD is dead, long live HD-AAC"



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"Boffins behind the original MP3 and MPEG4 codecs have come up with a new audio format which could make CDs obsolete.

Scientists at the Fraunhofer Institute for Integrated Circuits IIS say the new HD-AAC codec delivers better-than-CD-quality sound in file sizes that are small enough to be offered online - like on Apple's iTunes Store, for example."

Full article is here.


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## phat78boy (Sep 12, 2007)

Great, this just means I have to redo my entire collection again.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I'd rather have DVD-A or SACD


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## Pinion413 (Oct 21, 2007)

Steve Mehs said:


> I'd rather have DVD-A or SACD


Amen to that. :joy:

I absolutely love the clarity of the few SACD and DVD-A discs I own.

That was the previous "Format War". What happened with that? The both have seemed to kinda just fizzle out...


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

From my perspective, the exact opposite from Blu Ray/HD DVD. Plenty of content available on Blu Ray and HD DVD, the studios are embracing this new technology, in the audio world it was the exact opposite. Between Best Buy, Circuit City, Media Play, FYE and others, I could never find anything I was interested in. I have four DVD-As, Metallica's Black Album, Disturbed's Believe, the Linkin Park Remix Album and The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds. I've owned a Sony 5 Disc SACD changer for going on 2 years now and have yet to actually find an SACD I'd consider buying. Only thing that comes close in the Footloose soundtrack because of that Melloncamp song. The wonderful RIAA never spent a dime to promote high rez audio. I have NEVER purchased a CD in my life. I went from taping songs off the radio, to burning songs on CD from the old Napster, then Kazaa and now Limewire. But I had no problem paying $25 per album for a DVD-A disc. Their loss.


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Unfortunately, I think SACD and DVD-A never took off for many more reasons. For one reason there was no in car support (that I'm aware of), where most people listen to their music. You can now listen to DVD-A if you have a DVD in your car...SACD is a little trickier (I think). But still the systems in cars don't support multichannel (that I know of). I think if it were doable in cars then you would have gotten more common folks buying and using them, but as it is only fringe folks who are aware that they exist and audiofiles are the only users.

As I read this article it is not more than stereo...so it is another lossless format, with perhaps smaller file sizes (this is the good news). The bad news is that everyone that owns a device that doesn't support it will have to upgrade to use it or use another proprietery format (which I do) in their music players.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

There have been several studies done that more or less come to the same conclusion. There may never be a replacement for the CD. By that they mean another type of disc or similiar "object" for lack of a better term. The Mp3 player is an example of something that can and does replace CD's, and there is sure to be some new and great player, but it probably will not be anything to do with discs or separate objects. 

The reason? Three main reasons. 
1. Less and less people are buying full CD's, and are buying individual songs. Something like an Mp3 player fits that type of buying trend, not to mention it holds so much more music than a CD. Even if a CD could hold alot more, the player is so much bigger than an Mp3 (or of course Ipod) player.

2. The majority of people feel the CD sounds fine, and is not interested in having to buy a whole new player to play CD's or discs even if the sound is better. With CD players in thousands and thousands of cars, not many will want to switch them out for a new player. Again, the Mp3 type player has an advantage as it can usually be played thru the existing radio in the car. By the way, this is exactly the problem HD radio and to a lesser extent HD tv is having. While people can see an HD picture is alot better, if they already have a good digital picture many are reluctant to spend money on a more expensive HD TV. (However in the long run HD will become the standard) And by now most can see HD radio is going nowhere fast. 

3. Many believe we are not too far from having WiFi available on a wide spread basis. If true and reliable, it could become a whole new way to listen to music on the go for the mainstream. The thinking is you could have your collection on a computer or something similiar at home and broadcast the music to wherever you are on Wifi headphones, or a Wifi car radio. You would be able to control it over the internet/Wifi. Of course this can be done now on a limited basis - even using something like a Slingbox you can listen to music from your house over the internet wherever you have a connection, and in some cases can remote control what you listen to. Even a program like "Log Me In" could be made for use to control and listen to music from your home computer, which it can now, but only to another computer.
This doesn't even cover the projected use of Cell phones or Wifi phones in all this.


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## Pinion413 (Oct 21, 2007)

Steve Mehs said:


> I've owned a Sony 5 Disc SACD changer for going on 2 years now and have yet to actually find an SACD I'd consider buying. Only thing that comes close in the Footloose soundtrack because of that Melloncamp song.


The only DVD-A I have are DualDisc's I think.....

As for SACD, Nine Inch Nails' "The Downward Spiral" and Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon : 30th Anniversary Edition" are the only two I own, and they are amazing! 

Thankfully my Oppo players play both of these formats, and HDCD enabled discs too, but that's a whole other story..... :grin:



smiddy said:


> You can now listen to DVD-A if you have a DVD in your car...SACD is a little trickier (I think).


The above SACD's (and I believe it's true for most of the later releases) are Hybrid (essentially dual layer) and can be played in both SACD and regular CD players. Layer 1 is CD, Layer 2 is DVD (the disc "format" that SACD is stored on). I personally thought this would help SACD as you could play it on anything, normal PCM or high resolution DSD stereo and 5.1.

To get the 5.1 out of them though, yes, you are correct. I don't recall ever seeing any car audio units that supported the format.

Oh well.


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

This all makes me wonder how good is too good? I mean, there has got to be a threshold for clarity and functionality of our gadgets. I suspose 5.1 doesn't make a lot of sense in cars, with the external noises, perhaps the subtleness of the multichannels would be missed or not as enjoyable. Perhaps people aren't swapping out cars as much anymore, or buying car stereos to replace the stock ones, I don't know. I know a lot of people have bought into the MP3 player and they are not high quality gadgets (relitively speaking to home theater or audiofile EQ).

I am curious about HD radio (which is nothing more than spread spectrum signal versus FM, which can reduce the power and bandwidth requirements; it is not a High Definition anything) though, i would suspect that the FCC will mandate HD radio soon too for much the same reason as analog television signals to digital. When I purchase another new vehicle, I will make certain it is capable of HD Radio. I can get a next generation Denon THX Ultra 2 Certified receiver with HD Radio now...but they are a huge chunk of change, which I dont intend to replace my current (main theater) receiver for some time.

There is a threshold though and I think we consumers are upon it right now.


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## Pinion413 (Oct 21, 2007)

tampa8, I'll bite on your post too. ( I won't quote the whole thing though ) 

In all honestly, I agree with your view on that. I myself swore up and down I'd never buy an "iPod"-like device. My complaint was always that they don't make one big enough for me, and that is still kinda true....(my dedicated 'Music' hard drive in my computer is 500GB, and will be more or less full once my CD collection is ripped to FLAC) Regardless, I finally broke down in late '06 and bought a very cheap player, which led to a 30GB Zen (which ended up being garbage), which has now led to my 80GB Zune (yo smiddy!).

Where I wouldn't mind seeing WiFi available on a broad range and music services being available essentially anywhere, I personally would hate to see this continuation of quantity versus quality. Once said services are available, they should make available some means of higher resolution audio. Any of these lossless encoders (even the one mentioned by the OP I'm assuming) are only truly lossless from a PCM-CDDA-44.1kHz standpoint, which, while it is better than MP3's and such, is still "lossy" to a point in itself. While DVD-A and SACD still aren't true analogue, they have a much higher sampling rate and warmer, more true sound quality. If we could get something along those lines available through a service, sign me up. I'll gladly pay money for songs and albums of that fidelity.

In the meantime, I'll keep buying CD's and rip them for my own purposes. I refuse to pay just about as much for a download that is ultimately much poorer in fidelity. :rant:


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## Pinion413 (Oct 21, 2007)

Okay, I stand slightly corrected. HD-AAC supports up to 24-bit/96kHz audio.

That is a step in the right direction in my opinion, just not quite there yet.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

There certainly will always be those who want better quality over quantity. It just seems they (we) are in the minority. Pinion413, I believe your assessment is correct - it seems to be a continuation of quantity, not really quality. Satellite radio and TV are good examples. Once the sound/picture "sounds good" or "looks good" most just want one thing - more channels. If given the choice based on a limited spectrum of either better quality or more channels, most will take the more channels as long as the picture or sound "looks or sounds good" even if it could be better.


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## BuggyBoyNYC (Jun 10, 2007)

smiddy said:


> Unfortunately, I think SACD and DVD-A never took off for many more reasons. For one reason there was no in car support (that I'm aware of), where most people listen to their music. You can now listen to DVD-A if you have a DVD in your car...SACD is a little trickier (I think). But still the systems in cars don't support multichannel (that I know of). I think if it were doable in cars then you would have gotten more common folks buying and using them, but as it is only fringe folks who are aware that they exist and audiofiles are the only users.
> 
> As I read this article it is not more than stereo...so it is another lossless format, with perhaps smaller file sizes (this is the good news). The bad news is that everyone that owns a device that doesn't support it will have to upgrade to use it or use another proprietery format (which I do) in their music players.


My '07 Acura TL Type-S can play DVD-A discs with no problem...
The problem is actually finding the damn discs!

Chemical Brothers sounds awesome in DVD-A


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