# DVR 510 announced and monthly fee!



## boba

Jim Defranco just announced the model DVR 510 and a monthly fee structure from $9.99/ month to free if you subscribe to Americas Everything package. Hello TIVO.


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## spanishannouncetable

Got a link ? I'd like to read the justification for charging $10 a month to use a 501 with a bigger hard drive :nono2:


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## djlong

I was looking at eventually getting a 921 to be HDTV-ready when I could get a big-screen.

Now? Sigh.. ANother argument for TiVo. If they make an HD PVR that will allow me to hang more hard drives off of it (you can never have enough storage), then it's a no-brainer.

Do I remember this correctly - a DirecTiVo is about $5/mo for the service? And now E* is going to charge DOUBLE that for what has historically been *very* buggy software???

Makes me glad I stuck with the Dishplayer this long... This is definitely influencing my upcoming decisions.


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## DenR

I find this hard to believe.


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## Scott Greczkowski

A fee for PVR service from Dish?

What are they nuts?


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## dfergie

Now they want us to pay twice, like the tivo folks.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Well its TRUE!

Here is the information from an ad slick a retailer sent me with the information.

Here are the monthly DVR fee is as follows:

• $0.00 per month if the customer subscribes to America’s Everything Pak
• $4.98 per month if the customer subscribes to AT100, DL Dos, AT150, or DL Max
• $9.99 per month if the customer subscribes to AT50, DISH Latino, or AT50 Plus

Plus note they are not calling it a PVR anymore, looks like they are dropping the PVR name in favor of the DVR name.


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## dfergie

I get americas everything pack but still... my next pvr will be the 921, I hope. Unless they can come up with a reliable dvhs.


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## Wayne

Do you think that this monthly fee is only for this type of promotion since there isn't a seperate equipment charge for the DVR?


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## Scott Greczkowski

I did not see the retailer chat (yet) so I am not sure off all the details.

Lets hope this fee is JUST for this promotion.

If someone can clarify it would be appreciated.


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## gcutler

Boy are they playing with fire. The software with the 5xx is fine if it is free, but paying for it is unacceptable (I would pay only $4.98 under the listing) but that would really be lame. If I am going to pay for software then I'll get another SA TiVo. 

Anyone know if/when they will be pushing it on existing subs, or they won't but if you add a 510 in the future and they now have you??? I rarely get close to my 60 hours on the 508, so I'm in no rush to upgrade. And I can always add 120MB to my SA TiVo in a blink of an eye if I'm desperate for hard drive space


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## Scott Greczkowski

I just got this in amn email sent to me...



> DishDVR Monthly Service Fees: The newest generation of DishDVRs (including the DishDVR 510) will have a tiered monthly DVR service fee that is determined by the level of the basic programming package that the customer subscribes to. This fee should not be confused with the monthly $4.99 additional outlet fee that applies to each additional receiver on a non-DHP account. Monthly DVR fees are receiver based, not promotion based. The monthly fee of the DishDVR 510 is listed below:
> 
> • $0.00 per month if the customer subscribes to America's Everything Pak
> • $4.98 per month if the customer subscribes to AT100, DL Dos, AT150, or DL Max
> • $9.99 per month if the customer subscribes to AT50, DISH Latino, or AT50 Plus


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## platinum

Damn...9.99 for buggy software is steep... I'll keep my tivo anyday


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## spanishannouncetable

So many questions.

1) Does this only apply to the 510, or will existing 501 and 508 customers on the DHP start being charged as well ?

2) Is this only for DHP subscribers, or will those who own their DVRs (existing 501/508, new 510 owners) be charged, too ?

3) Are they planning to upgrade the software to the point that it matches the level of service a SA TiVo provides, or do they really think they can get away with charging $10 a month (TWICE what Directv DVR service costs) for the single-tuner no-frills package they offer now ?


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## boba

Even if you pay full price for the DVR 510 the monthly fee will apply was the answer Jim DeFranco gave to a dealers question. The PVR 921 was not listed as a grandfathered unit so it looks like they plan on hooking the customer on that unit also. 501,508 & 721 owners will be grandfathered at zero monthly fees.


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## RAD

OK, am I missing something here? To me it looks like you get the 510 for free (I don't see where they are charging you for it) but you pay an extra monthly fee tiered to the package you have. On the digital home plan, if I remember correctly, you paid an extra $50 to upgrade a 301 to a 501/508 but no additional monthly charge. Since they mention only the 510 I doubt/hope that they would go back and start charging all the 501/508/721 owners out there. If they do they better be ready to offer a buyback program since noplace was it said that in the future you'd be charged extra to use a piece of hardware that you purchased. I think there may be just a bit of over reaction going on here.


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## rtt2

One of the biggest reasons I went with E* was because of the free DVRs and now I learn of this. It seems like DirecTivo will be the next system I get in my house. There will be no way I pay parity for buggy and clumsy DVR software with a poor user interface.
I am sad to see E* take this direction because I was planning on purchasing some of their new hardware but it seems like a poor place to invest in equipment now. Good thing I am a DHP subscriber I can just give them all the equipment back without any loss to me.
I just don't it does't Dish realize the vast superiority between them & TIVO? I am willing to put up with the difference if the service was free but paying for it is crazy. I also cannot justify all these new increases on my bill; the new satellite tax in Connecticut & and a DVR charge and any possible future programming increase if the ever happens to be one. Connecticut will now be charging a double tax one on programming (6%) and one on satellite (5%). Why is Dish starting to feel like cable all over again?


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## gcutler

boba said:


> Even if you pay full price for the DVR 510 the monthly fee will apply was the answer Jim DeFranco gave to a dealers question. The PVR 921 was not listed as a grandfathered unit so it looks like they plan on hooking the customer on that unit also. 501,508 & 721 owners will be grandfathered at zero monthly fees.


If they backstepped and said the DVR fee was only for those who recieved FREE hardware in that offering then I think most of us would quite down. But if I pay $200-$300 for a new 510, and have to pay PVR fee, there is nothing they can say to calm me down.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Let's look at this again...

This is from Dish Networks own documentation...



> The newest generation of DishDVRs (including the DishDVR 510) will have a tiered monthly DVR service fee that is determined by the level of the basic programming package that the customer subscribes to.


While this does not say the 522 and 921 it may indeed mean that those new receivers will have a monthly fee.

Also it says...


> Monthly DVR fees are receiver based, not promotion based.


So there it says these DVR fees are NOT promotion based, it has nothing to do with any promotion, even if you pay full price for the receiver you will still be paying the fee according to your programming selection.


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## Randy_B

This looks, and smells like one huge can of ugly worms for E*. Scenario: Customer owns a 501 or 508 and has the extended warranty. 50x breaks, will Dish RA with a 510 since 501/508 are OBE? If so, do they really think they will be able to force the former 50x owner into a perpetual monthly fee? I can hear about 30 state Attorneys General, screaming and champing at the bit already!!!! 

If Dish is out there reading this, they better get the PR and damage control rolling right now. What is the GROUND TRUTH?


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## awax

Hey E* can we have named based recording now??? Maybe a wishlist or god forbid a season pass?? What a bunch of morons.


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## platinum

Is the new receiver a dual tuner?


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## Scott Greczkowski

No its the same unit as a 501 / 508 with just a bigger hard drive.


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## bishoptf

I wanted to buy a 921 as soon as one was available, the only reason I stayed with DISH was due to their lower price. If this is in fact true, then I guess I will have to wait for the D* HD TIVO unit. I bought one of the original 501's and have suffered through their "software enhancements" ( I'm on my third unit). I still have it but the software is not even close to as good as TIVO. I guess we will have to wait and see....


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## gcutler

platinum said:


> Is the new receiver a dual tuner?


No, just a 501 or 508 with a bigger (120MB) hard drive


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## Wayne

I was planning to upgrade my 508 to a 522 but not now. Also I think I will go ahead and reduce my current programming from AT150 to AT100. Might as well start cutting corners now before they find something else to charge us for!


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## Mark Holtz

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Well its TRUE!
> 
> Here is the information from an ad slick a retailer sent me with the information.
> 
> Here are the monthly DVR fee is as follows:
> 
> • $0.00 per month if the customer subscribes to America's Everything Pak
> • $4.98 per month if the customer subscribes to AT100, DL Dos, AT150, or DL Max
> • $9.99 per month if the customer subscribes to AT50, DISH Latino, or AT50 Plus
> 
> Plus note they are not calling it a PVR anymore, looks like they are dropping the PVR name in favor of the DVR name.


:lol: Read the ad slick CAREFULLY! It says that this is for a "free" new two-room system. This sounds like a resurrection of the Digital Home Plan where you don't buy the system, you lease the system. I'm on a similar plan now, and there is a $9 surcharge for my PVR because I don't own the equipment. (It has come in handy.)


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## Scott Greczkowski

Z'Loth, from the new Dish Network Retailer Rules (Issued today) it says the following



> Monthly DVR fees are receiver based, not promotion based.


It has nothing to do with the promotion, the picture shown above was an ad slick that was sent to me and I cut and pasted the 510 picture portion here.


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## platinum

Charlie's got a set of grape fruits, charging for a single tuner with buggy software.


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## SParker

Scott, so they wont start charging this for the 721 or the new 921?


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## pjmrt

I hope Dish seriously rethinks this - this makes their business management dept look in complete chaos. Dishplayers had a pvr fee, except some who took advantage of "lifetime" promotion which expired this year and may or may not be charged $10/mo regardless of programming, while 501/508 have free pvr regardless of programming but now a 508 with a larger harddrive will have a fee from $0 - $10/mo depending on what level of programming subscribed to. Its a nightmare just waiting to happen. I don't know if Dish has noticed, but they still have competition. Forget D* for just a moment. Good ole cable has been busy lately expanding channel selection and our local time warner is rolling out their own pvr capabilities (fee based, but then you don't have to shell our several hundred dollars in equipment).

Any chance this is just a "trial balloon" some dish executive floated up to see what the reaction would be?


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## Scott Greczkowski

SParker said:


> Scott, so they wont start charging this for the 721 or the new 921?


Correct those receivers are grandfathered.

Also note that while the documentation makes it look like all future DVRs from Dish will have this fee, there is NOTHING to indicate that the 522 and 921 with have a DVR fee.


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## djlong

If this is true, they just lost me as a customer.

I went with E* for a few reasons - the DP was the only PVR that recorded the MPEG stream, superstations let me solve conflicts since I only had one tuner and the programming was nominally cheaper.

Now, dual-tuner PVRs eliminate the need for the supers, there are more satellite PVRs (TiVo) and after my unbelievably bad experience with DP software, my mind is made up.

This isn't a threat (if this all pans out and isn't a bad trial balloon). This is a promise. I will be gone as soon as the HD DirecTivo plans materialize and I can afford it.


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## Neil Derryberry

I don't think this was a very smart move on E*'s part. everyone, vote with your wallet here - $5 or $10 is not worth the price unless E* has some compelling new features to add.

E* reads this forum... and they should take note here.


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## Lee L

This would be really funny if it wasn't such a stupid move.


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## JosephF

E* renames their product to DVR, reflecting what it really is... a Satellite based Digital VCR and at the same time says they will charge for an inferior product :-(

I've never had a problem with the "PVR" shortcomings of E* product, but I sure as #$%& have a problem with paying a monthly fee for it.

If they do this, they had better target some of this revenue to pay licensing fees for some of the true "PVR" features.


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## spanishannouncetable

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Correct those receivers are grandfathered.
> 
> Also note that while the documentation makes it look like all future DVRs from Dish will have this fee, there is NOTHING to indicate that the 522 and 921 with have a DVR fee.


There's also nothing to indicate that the 522 and 921 WON'T have the fees. The info you posted stated that " The newest generation of DishDVRs (including the DishDVR 510) will have a tiered monthly DVR service fee that is determined by the level of the basic programming package that the customer subscribes to. "

The 501, 508, and 721 are already on the market, so I guess they are "last" generation DVRs. However, the 510, 522 and 921 are all not available as yet, so are they not "newest generation" DVRs ? The 510 is just a 508 with 40 extra gig on the hard drive, yet it still counts as a "newest generation" DVR with no real improvements.

I betcha that if the bottom-of-the-line 510 is considered next-gen, the dual-tuner dual-output 522 and the dual-tuner HD 921 will indeed be subject to the same fee.


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## Mark Holtz

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Z'Loth, from the new Dish Network Retailer Rules (Issued today) it says the following
> 
> It has nothing to do with the promotion, the picture shown above was an ad slick that was sent to me and I cut and pasted the 510 picture portion here.


:nono:Then obviously someone at Dish is "smoking crack". The fees for the standalone PVRs is $14.99, but DirecTivos have a monthly fee of $4.95.

:nono2:Look, I prefer to stick with Dish and replace my 501 with one with a higher drive. The software has less functionality than a Tivo, but we all knew that. If they seriously intend to follow through on this, expect DirecTV to come out with the DirecTivo HVR2+ with a 120GB hard drive and a nice offer for existing DishPVR customers.

Right now, because of the expiration of the promotion that I signed in September, 2001, I am now looking at a bill that jumped from $70.54 to $73.54. According to my bill:

"DishNet Local Package - $8.99"
(Sacramento locals+superstations)

"DishPVR Plan with AT150, 3 RCVRS - $62.99"
(One 501 PVR and two 301 receivers with non-usable guides. I'm on the Digital Home Plan)

And, the following note on my bill:
"*Digital Home Plan* - Digital Home Plan customers will pay a monthly rental fee based on the Plan and number of additional receivers selected. The rental fee is $5 for Digital 100 and 150 plans, $9 for the Digital 100 PVR Plan, $10 for the Digital 150 PVR Plan, $5 for each additional receiver(s) and is included in the Digital Home Plan Packages."

So, now, I'm staring at the DirecTV site. Their "Total Choice Plus" pacakge with locals is $39.99 per month, and lacks the following channels from the AT150:

* Encore Themes
* Encore West
* The Golf Channel
* The Movie Channel West
* Great American Country

And, some public interest channels will be missing. All those channels I hardly watch anyways. In addition, I will be giving up the supers pack, but since Buffy is gone and Enterprise isn't worth watching anymore, all that's left is Angel.

DirecTivo Fee: $4.95
Additional Receiver fees: 2x$5

So, right now, I can pay $55+tax and get about the same programming that I watch now. That same package I'm paying now is $72+tax from Dish. The only catch is that I have to purchase all of the equipment up front rather than lease it (Last I checked, around $400 for HDVR2+2 additional receivers+Triple LNB Dish+$100 for hard drive upgrade), and the installer will have to run new coax to my room for the second tuner.

I've hinted to my mom that this might just happen. Maybe it's time for me to prepare to get my facts together and then see if I can get my plan lowered. And, the only reason why I have DBS at all is to keep my mom happy, and that I hate comcast/at&t broadband.


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## scooper

I agree - I had thought about pressing the wife to get a 522 when they became available (as a replacement for my 2 current non-PVR's) - but this PVR fee for essentially a Digital VCR is saying "Forget it" - I've already got MPEG tuner cards in the PC's that can duplicate this function (just not as conviently) , along with the ability to save the programs to VCD / DVD when I get the DVD burner. As it is - I may see about getting a 50x ASAP if I want one at all.

If they are going to license the TiVO code - THEN the DVR fees could be understood, and I would consider a DVR upgrade.


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## James Hill

Could this be a two part move by Charlie's marketing department?

1) To see how a fee based 510 competes with DirecTivo with new customers?

2) To get the bad news out now so the average Joe forgets free PVR by the time the 921 comes out?

Personally, I think the move is taking one of E*'s big advantages off the table. D* could capitalize, so could cable.

I've got a feeling a lot of Dish 500's will be on E-Bay in January.

James Hill


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## gcutler

Z'Loth said:


> If they seriously intend to follow through on this, expect DirecTV to come out with the DirecTivo HVR2+ with a 120GB hard drive and a nice offer for existing DishPVR customers.


You really don't even need to wait for that. TiVo has pretty much given their blessing to upgrading the hard drives by the endusers, so right now you can take a DTiVo and have over 240 hours. So only those who don't want to open their case are limited to the current drive sizes.

check out www.weaknees.com or

http://www.weaknees.com/direct_tv_tivo.php on buying a preconfigured upgrade kit.
$750 for a brand new unit with 240 hours...
http://www.weaknees.com/tivo_philips_dsr7000.php
$450 to swap out original drive and add 2nd drive for 240 hours...

Obviously less $ for smaller drive upgrades...

Even orbitsat is selling new DTiVo systems with 220 hours for $550...


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## spanishannouncetable

Samsung is going to start shipping DirecTiVos with 2x and/or 3x the current 35 hr capacity any day now. 100+ hour capacity straight from the factory combined with a new subscriber discount is a good thing


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## beegfoot

Dish is grandfathering any 501, 508 and 721 sold before 9/1/03. After that, all DVR products will have a fee based on your programming. Everything Pak will be free, $4.99 for AT 100 and AT150, and $9.99 for AT50.

If they are going to charge for the DVR service, I was expecting the price to drop, similar to DTV's TiVo. But that was not announced on the chat. 

I think this is a mistake for Dish.


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## John Corn

I certainly would think Dish would discount the receiver.


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## DarrellP

If Dish starts charging a PVR fee, I will sell mine, drop ALL of my Dish programming and stick to OTA with my 6000. The $5 extra receiver fee is already too much. Bye-Bye Charlie.


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## dinkster

WHOA !!!!! Is this for real? In addition to purchasing my 921, rewiring my system, purchasing and installing a SuperDish, paying for additional HD programming (all of which I have resigned myself to do), I now have to pay a monthly fee for the privilege of having purchased a 921?

Even though I have America's Everything and am on CCAutoPay, this just really rubs me the wrong way. Major big time.  

When is the HD-Tivo going to be introduced?


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## John Corn

I'm with dinkster, whens the HD-TiVo due out?


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## spanishannouncetable

Hopefully before Christmas, but more likely after the first of the year.


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## Big_Dawg

OK. Let me get this straight (and somebody correct me if I'm worng) - E* has an advantage in the PVR (oops - DVR) arena in terms of subscriber numbers. 

You can't go out and buy all the new DVR/HDTV equipment being promised by E*, D* is practically giving away DirecTivos, yet E* is announcing all sorts of tiered fees?! Looks to me like this is going to be pushing out a large number of subs out the door.

Somebody at E* has GOT to be a few french fries short of a Happy Meal!


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## Guest

True, the DVR fee sucks pretty bad for those of us who are current customers and plan to upgrade, however for a new customer the new Free Dish is a pretty good deal- a 301 and 510 FOR FREE (50$ install fee, $50 rebate fee). The details on the promo are in the public part of the retailer site: retailer.echostar.com Personally, I'd rather never have a monthly fee, but I'd bet the promo will get more NEW customers to take the DVR, and since Echo has said publicly that they believe that PVR (oh, excuse me DVR) customers churn less, they probably see it as a win for them.


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## Gunnyman

yep it's definitely NOT Tivo huh?


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## boba

For existing Directv customers www.directv.com/see/landing/dvro.html $199.00 I've seen posts for new Directv customers between $49 & $99.


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## Jeff_R

This makes my decision to switch to D* a few weeks ago very much worth it! I do miss my Dishplayer, but the added HD channels, the promise of a pretty cool (we hope) HD Tivo, I'm pretty glad I switched. 

Sold the 6000 for a nice price on Ebay, sold the DP for a decent price, also. I'm actually in the positive for switching to Directv!

Jeff


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## Mike D-CO5

Maybe the new receivers will receive new software to make it do name based recording and wish lists, etc ,like tivo. Then and only then can Dish justify any kind of fee for their "DVR" service. The no fee was a big reason for people to buy Dish in the first place. If they go that route I see a lot of people who will just jump ship in order to get a good receiver that has 2 tuners and is solid with tivo features.

And just think, a few short months ago we were discussing eliminating the additional receiver fee as a way for Dish to make new market share. Instead of being a trail blazer and a leader in this they will now emulate Directv and their fees and now their name (DVR instead of PVR). This is the wrong way to go for the future. They better think twice about this change.


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## Guest

Most of the complaints ring true, but remember:

1- Existing customers who've bought a 501/508/721 will NOT pay a fee. So no one is going to be leaving Dish because their formerly free reciever suddenly has a monthly fee. Most customers won't even notice that something has canged because it won't effect them.

2- New customers will now get a free 120-gig (granted, Single-tuner) (D)VR for free. I'd bet a lot of people would be willing to pay a monthly fee if they paid NOTHING to get the receiver.

3- Essentially the only people getting screwed are: new customers who'd prefer to pay outright for the reciever and (really the only major group would be) existing customers looking to upgrade to a new/better PVR. This would be most of us, who will (probably) have to pay full (or nearly full) price for a new box AND pay the montly fee (which would suck for the 921 I'm wanting). While this is really not cool for us, I'd bet that the pool of people looking to do this (although disproportionally represented here) is probably fairly small given the overall customer base. Furthermore, if Dish lowers the price on new DVRs for existing customers as well to really low rates, I'd bet that they'd probably get more takers from Mr/Mrs "Average Dish 301 Owner" than annoyed Dish-techies leaving the company.

Note, from my position as an early-adopter looking to upgrade my 721/6000 combo to a 921 I understand that a new fee is really anooying, but for E*, it makes perfect business sense- we all know they focus on New Customers when it comes to equipment and this will probably be a great promo for them (just, unfortunately, not for us)


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## angiodan

I am f*&^in pissed!  

I can't believe this s$%t when I first read it.

I don't know what else to say. If the 921 and 522 do end up having the fees, then Charlie can take his DVR's and Superdish, and shove them up his ass. 

Waiting for over a year and a half for the 921, being called "Stan" on the tech chat, being told we have lots of extra cash to spend on HDTV so no big deal to buy the Superdish, and now this.

Un-F*@#$'ing believable!


PS. My apologies for my language, I know we are a family forum, but you wouldn't have wanted to hear what I was really saying as I scrolled through this thread.


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## Wolffpack

awax said:


> Hey E* can we have named based recording now??? Maybe a wishlist or god forbid a season pass?? What a bunch of morons.


New to this forum, have never even seen any DISH products but been a DirecTV customer for > 5 years and DTivo since January.

Does the statement above mean you cannot search for programs to record based on title, or setup a "season pass" to record all occurances of a show like you can with Tivo? :eek2:


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## spanishannouncetable

I checked out the ad slicks on the retailer site here -

http://retailer.echostar.com/forms/2003adslicks/FreeDish/slicks_681_Q3_FreeDVR_1.pdf

According to the fine print, you get a 301 and a 510 FREE after rebate. This is not a DHP lease, you own the equipment. You are then obligated to keep the receivers for 2 years or penalties (up to $360 if cancelled in the first year, up to $180 if cancelled in the second year) kick in.

So with AT100 or AT150 you pay for programming + $120 in DVR fees + $120 in 2nd receiver fees over 2 years and the equipment is yours. Total $240 above the cost of the programming, $50 you pay up front rebated back to you.

With the DirecTiVo combo at Orbit or Expert, you pay $99 for a DirecTiVo/2nd room combo, then pay $60 in DVR fees + $60 in 2nd receiver fees in a year and their yours. $220 above the cost of the programming, $99 up front.

Maybe it's not such a bad deal after all, for new subs who want Dish Network and a DVR with little out-of-pocket change.


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## snagel

I just called Dish and discussed this thread with one of their CSR's. Although he was unsure as of yet because it has not really even out yet, I did direct him DBS Talk and to this particular thread in this forum. 
Hopefully he will read this and then pass this along to his chain of command and they will see where this thread is going as of present. Hopefully then someone at Dish will post here and clarify this for us.


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## tampa8

$999 for the 921 AND $15.00 per month? (pvr fee and 2nd receiver fee)Not in this lifetime thank-you. For once I agree fully with all those angered by this marketing. I have never even thought of leaving Dish before, overall I have been satisfied, but this will certainly make me look at my options.

Cox is also changing their marketing. Cox is going to require you to buy your reciever, not rent to get HD. They will no longer service the unit because you will buy it from an independant dealer. Not in the article, but in another one, they will also charge a "premium" charge to get locals in HD. http://www.dcrtv.net/


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## D_Thomas

Z'Loth said:


> The only catch is that I have to purchase all of the equipment up front rather than lease it (Last I checked, around $400 for HDVR2+2 additional receivers+Triple LNB Dish+$100 for hard drive upgrade), and the installer will have to run new coax to my room for the second tuner.


ValueElectronics and Expert Satellite have been offering $99 specials that included HDVR2 DIRECTV DVR with TiVo receiver (or same unit manufactured for Philips) plus 1 or 2 additional receivers, plus round dish, plus installation, plus switch. You have to ask for the $99 specials since these are not always posted on the web sites.

The HDVR2 will work with either 1 or 2 tuners activated. But it is SO SWEET with both tuners running. So get a switch that will allow you to have 2 coax runs to the HDVR2.

I do NOT work for either of these companies, but I have purchased from ValueElectronics and they are excellent. Wendy was my sales rep.

More info is available on the TiVo Community Forum at http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=7 -- look at the DIRECTV Receiver with TiVo Forum for thread about "Value Electronics".


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## Chris Blount

FYI: Dish has been looking at this thread since it started.


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## Geronimo

And waht about DP oiwners. Somewhere I read "same as before". But it's currenyly up in the air.


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## Bob Haller

Well I WAS going to upgrade to a 522. This news has me $#@!^%# My wife is very tired of the bugs. I am sick and tired of stuff like this. It would be different if E produced a high quality name based PVR/ As described I will burn my pom poms.

What on earth are they thinking?

D gives name based recordings, with rock solid operation.........


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## SParker

Bob,

They aren't thinking! They better not get any bright ideas and start charging a fee like this for the 721. If they did it might tick me off enough to start looking at D* and I am very happy with Dish right now.



Bob Haller said:


> Well I WAS going to upgrade to a 522. This news has me $#@!^%# My wife is very tired of the bugs. I am sick and tired of stuff like this. It would be different if E produced a high quality name based PVR/ As described I will burn my pom poms.
> 
> What on earth are they thinking?
> 
> D gives name based recordings, with rock solid operation.........


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## Guest

I will not pay $9.99/mo for the current functionality offered by Echostar DVR receivers. If they want me to pay $4.99/mo, they'll need to deliver technology more comparable to Tivo (ex: name based recording).


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## boba

Chris I hope DISH taking it all in this is one of the foolishest marketing errors they have made since the DISHPLAYER. It is contrary to their marketing of the PVR.


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## Bob Haller

Sadly I think E has lost its way. Sad what USED to be a friendly company has morphed into.

My issue is that they shoiuldnt ccharge for 2nd quality service.

I GUESS THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT ON THE DISHPLAYER AND SAID WHY NOT


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## Jeff_R

Bob Haller said:


> Sadly I think E has lost its way. Sad what USED to be a friendly company has morphed into.
> 
> My issue is that they shoiuldnt ccharge for 2nd quality service.
> 
> I GUESS THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT ON THE DISHPLAYER AND SAID WHY NOT


The Dishplayer was the first generation integrated PVR unit. They did it because there was nothing to compare it to. Anyone who wanted a perfect copy of a program to watch later had only one choice. Even then, the Dishplayer has a lot more functionality than the 5XX series recievers have. Many more features, easily upgradable HD, etc.


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## Gunnyman

Bob Haller said:


> Sadly I think E has lost its way. Sad what USED to be a friendly company has morphed into.
> 
> My issue is that they shoiuldnt ccharge for 2nd quality service.
> 
> I GUESS THEY GOT AWAY WITH IT ON THE DISHPLAYER AND SAID WHY NOT


Hehe doesn't the Dishplayer have more features than the PVR 501?

They lost their JD Power awards too didn't they?

Happy to be a new DTV customer I am
Gunnyman


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## thescrub

buy our 522, save $4.99 a month on a second receiver. It'll only cost you $9.99 a month.


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## xgrep

Thanks, Scott. Interesting news, indeed. I've had my eye on Comcast lately to replace both my DSL and E*, and it's pretty obvious which way news like this will influence me to go (Comcast is running a very tasty promotion in our area).

But what percentage of E* customers do I represent? Maybe less than 5%? They can probably afford to blow off another 10% of their customers before Charlie sinks the stock and gets the boot from the board (and he'll float off with a handsome parachute, anyway, so what does he care ...).

x


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## Chris Freeland

I will not consider a DVR510, however with the new 522 with two tuners and outputs for each tuner I can use it to replace both of my current receivers and the $4.98 DVR fee is a wash, since I would be dropping my 2nd receiver fee. I am still disappointed at this news, I was hoping to pay $4.99 less :shrug:


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## Bill R

Just when DISH is making some real headway in the marketplace against cable and DirecTV, the marketing department makes a decision that will likely reduce the number of customers that choose DISH Network as their provider.

The decision by the marketing department seems to be full of mistakes. First, the pricing model is all wrong. Given DISH's record of software problems and limited features on their new (and not so new) PVR/DVR models, at this point in time, they should NOT be charging anything additional for PVR/DVR service. Second, even if DISH does get their act together on the software they should NOT price the service higher than their competition (NOTHING justifies that). A price that matches their competition _could_ be justified only if the service gets as good as the competition (looking at the 721 compared to the DirecTV TiVo they are a VERY LONG way from that). Third, they are pricing the service higher than cable systems' DVR service (at least MY cable system). Given the current bundling of services by the cable companies (cable, internet, DVRs and, next year, telephone service) why would _anyone_ in an area like mine (with good cable service) choose DISH Network over cable or DirecTV (which has a DVR that works MUCH better than ANY DISH PVR/DVR)?

DISH's marketing department REALLY needs to look at this decision and see if the market will really support it. Just looking at some of the comments on this and other forums, it sure looks like many _current_ customers won't.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Well said Bill!

I hope Dish is watching this (and I KNOW they are watching) and does a 180 on this idea.

The marketing department should be focusing on getting new customers and keeping current customers, not driving them all away.


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## gcutler

Bill R said:


> The decision by the marketing department seems to be full of mistakes. First, the pricing model is all wrong. Given's DISH record of software problems and limited features on their new PVR/DVR models, at this point in time, they should NOT be charging anything additional for PVR/DVR service.


Their pricing model may have legitimately determined that they can't keep supporting a "Free DVR/PVR". But the problem is they have shown no ability to create stable SW. So they are basically saying to existing customers "I know we've shown no reason, but trust us this time". The only people who might fall for it those who have not jumped to the DVR world. But for the rest of us it is like *"Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, Try to fool me 28 times Cut the Cr*p Charlie"*

It would be one thing if the competition was as bad, but even surface investigation points to D*TiVo as obviously surperior/less expensive.


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## Bob Haller

Boy you can say that again! Marketing should all quit for even considering such a bone headed move..........

I am serious they should turn in their resignations and go work for cable where they belong!!!!!!!!!


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## Big_Dawg

gcutler said:


> But the problem is they have shown no ability to create stable SW.


That's easy to fix.

OPEN UP THE BETA PROGRAM TO INDIVIDUALS OUTSIDE E*.

Duh. My .02.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Big Dawg had to change your Sig, no advertising in the forums, however you can post your ad in the classifieds areas. (Thanks for your understanding.)

Dish Network does indeed have Beta testers (I know I am one) unfortunately the other Beta Testers are bound by a NDA and can not talk about the tests.

Actually since I have been in the Dish Beta program I have been impressed with how its has been run.


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## Phil T

Existing customers who want to upgrade equipment will most likely not.


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## Mike123abc

It depends on the deal for the reciever. If a reciever costs $249 and they give it to your free and charge you $10/month, in 25 months you would have it paid for and you would be worse off under this deal (at 50 customer). If you pay $5/month (AT100) then it would take 50 months... over 4 years, you probably come out ahead on this because of the time value of money (you got the $$ in your pocket and give to dish slowly). You come out way ahead if you are AEP customer and pay $0. If you have AEP a couple years then drop down you still are ahead.

IF you get the 921 for $750 instead of $999 the above applys too. Now if they are going to charge $999 for the 921 that will make a lot of people upset since they expected to pay $999 and no fee.


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## RAD

If Dish made the $4.99 charge ONLY for new DVR's that are 'leased' vs. purchased I don' that it's that bad. But if you have to purchase the box, then pay a monthly subscription for programming, then an additional receiver fee then the DVR charge that's an idea that should have been shot down before it even left the meeting room. 

Between garbage like this, the 6000 receiver problems that occured last week, the never ending delay on the 921 (will they give that away for free and charge only $4.99 a month?) and no definite date for SuperDish and new HD why don't they just send everyone the phone number for DirecTV in their next bill.


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## Mike123abc

It depends on the deal for the reciever. If a reciever costs $249 and they give it to your free and charge you $10/month, in 25 months you would have it paid for and you would be worse off under this deal (at 50 customer). If you pay $5/month (AT100) then it would take 50 months... over 4 years, you probably come out ahead on this because of the time value of money (you got the $$ in your pocket and give to dish slowly). You come out way ahead if you are AEP customer and pay $0. If you have AEP a couple years then drop down you still are ahead.

IF you get the 921 for $750 instead of $999 the above applys too. Now if they are going to charge $999 for the 921 that will make a lot of people upset since they expected to pay $999 and no fee.


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## Bob Haller

HO HO D phone number in next bill. Kinda on target lately.

Now were told this is a marketing decision. Evidently they are trying to encourage more folks to buy better packages. Problem is this appears more like a hammer to squash customners rather than something nice to encourage the purchase.

Looks more like a beancounter decision to me, looking out for the bottom line profit only while ignoring the big picture.

You know comcast here advetises the channels like goodlife they carry that sat doesnt. If marketing we really smart they would get those missing channels added, theres not a lot ands numbers sell.

Getting all subs a easy cheap upgrade path would help too.

Penalizing customers makes them want to leave, is THAT what they want?

I think this goes back to the horrid treatment E has given DP owners.

If they tolerate it why not?


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## boba

Actually they don't know it yet but they did send me Directv's phone number last Sunday. With the start of the NFL Sunday Ticket promotion I got rid of my sad DISH subscription. I am just waiting for my $149.00 PVR508 with no commitment to arrive before I turn off their lousy picture and software.


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## toad57

This new DVR fee is a part of Echostar's secret *P*rofit *P*revention *P*rogram.


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## Guest

spanishannouncetable said:


> Hopefully before Christmas, but more likely after the first of the year.


And at a rumored price of $599.


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## Guest

spanishannouncetable said:


> I checked out the ad slicks on the retailer site here -
> 
> http://retailer.echostar.com/forms/2003adslicks/FreeDish/slicks_681_Q3_FreeDVR_1.pdf
> 
> According to the fine print, you get a 301 and a 510 FREE after rebate. This is not a DHP lease, you own the equipment. You are then obligated to keep the receivers for 2 years or penalties (up to $360 if cancelled in the first year, up to $180 if cancelled in the second year) kick in.
> 
> So with AT100 or AT150 you pay for programming + $120 in DVR fees + $120 in 2nd receiver fees over 2 years and the equipment is yours. Total $240 above the cost of the programming, $50 you pay up front rebated back to you.
> 
> With the DirecTiVo combo at Orbit or Expert, you pay $99 for a DirecTiVo/2nd room combo, then pay $60 in DVR fees + $60 in 2nd receiver fees in a year and their yours. $220 above the cost of the programming, $99 up front.
> 
> Maybe it's not such a bad deal after all, for new subs who want Dish Network and a DVR with little out-of-pocket change.


How do you figure that one? The 510 might be a little cheaper but it is only a single tuner and cannot be upgraded.


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## Guest

So does the new DVR fee cover all your DVR's or just one? If it's $5-15 per unit then Dish has problems. It's bad enough to charge for their buggy software but at least DirecTV only charges you the PVR fee once and it covers all your DirecTivos.


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## Chris Freeland

This is a good deal for new subs because they are getting a DVR510 and 301 for $49 down and a $49 credit on their first bill, for many it will be worth paying $0, $4.98 or $9.99 and a 2-year commitment for this deal. This will not effect current DVR 501/508 and 721 subs, you will still get your DVR service for Free. For us who want to upgrade to a new DVR, this really Sucks, unless E* offers us some heavily discounted deal, better then the one they offer now, which I suspect will eventually happen, probably also with a 2-year commitment and Credit-card auto pay. A lifetime subscription option would be nice too. If D* would add Chattanooga locals I would consider switching for a D*TIVO.


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## gcutler

Big_Dawg said:


> That's easy to fix.
> 
> OPEN UP THE BETA PROGRAM TO INDIVIDUALS OUTSIDE E*.
> 
> Duh. My .02.


But do they have the manpower to fix all the problems in a reasonable amount of time, and will they after they start charging? How many will stick around to find out???


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## csschrot

Ok, I may be in the minority on this. For new customers I don't have a problem with this. Most of the new customers come in and are not happy with the cost of getting a DVR (PVR). This may help pull in new customers that would walk away or just took the 301 but wasn't happy about it.

However with that said. I think that the existing customer that buy a add on receiver or buy one as a replacement shouldn't be charged the monthly fee. I doubt that Dish will drop the price enough to justify a monthly fee. For example the 921 is suppose to be $999. AT that price I shouldn't be paying any monthly fee!!!!!


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## reedl

This is cross posted from the other site. I just wanted evertybody to see what a long time very high dollar E* subscriber (the type of customer that E* I am sure wants to keep) has to say about this terrible "idea":


Even though I technically would not pay anything using the current price points (I currently have the Everything pack), I think this is probably the stupidest thing that E* has ever done in the history of the company if the following assumptions are true:

1) The monthly price is per unit.

2) The initial price of the unit is the same as before (in other words, you still need to pay $300 for a receiver anyways)

3) It goes on forever on the monthly fee.

The only way this could possibly be acceptable to most people is to do one of the following:

1) Make the price a monthly charge (pro-rated as before), but make the receiver price lower. In other words, the receiver is either free or a token $20.00 or the like. This means you basically rent the receiver. Allow a "buyout" (kind of like a lifetime subscription) which gives you receiver without monthly fees.

2) Make the charge per account instead of per receiver. Even this is pretty stupid because most people only have two or three receivers, and this would not save them money.

E* have prided itself on having PVR(no wait DVR's) that are free of montly fees. 

In other words, given what we know right now, E* is making the biggest mistake in their history. Never mind the buggy software, never mind the two dishes required for all locals, this by and large going to scare away many potential customers. When they see the monthly fees of $15 per each additional receiver they will not choose to go with E* but instead go with cable which is "only" $8.99 per additional digital outlet or free for additional analog outlets which typically gives you the basic cable channels that most people watch anyways.

E* is shooting themselves in the foot on this one, and had better examine its strategy if it wishes to compete in the marketplace, because I would bet anyone a nice dinner somewhere that this will lower E*'s rapid increases in customers that have existed for many years. People do not like to be "nickel and dimed" and this is exactly what E* is doing here.

Even the DP was a price per account no matter how many of them you had activated.

All I can say is that this will increase the prices on used 50x receivers for sure.

(End of Rant, sorry!)

Reedl


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## ocnier

As many of you know there has been much excitement by many members over the hopefully fall/holiday release of the PVR 921 and many other soon to be released receivers. I personally was very pleased about it (in fact totally stoked). However, my hopes and admiration for E* has gone down the tubes after reading the news in the pvr forum that E will start charging PVR monthly fees like tivo. I will not post a rant about this because the other thread pretty sums it. I offer this to E* if they are totally about the allmighty dollar and not the customer: *"I offer a compromise*"-

How about instead of charging $10 a month in DVR fees for equipment I will buy. How about instead, changing the fee structure so that it reads $10 a month only if the customer drops below the top 100 or 150 package tiers even past contract time for new/existing customers. This I think is way more reasonable than the everything pak considering that top 100 and 150 customers account for more than 63% of E* customer base. I think this would be a win win situation for both parties considering that the majority of DVR customers remain happy with costeffective bills and that fact that E* can ensure obeisance of it's customer base for main stream programming packages that would not decline below a certain leve. The present customer plan puts $4.99 a month charge for top 100 & 150 package customers. I am presently with D* (long football story), but I was looking forward to switching back to E* with baited breath until I read the DVR posts today. The only reason I don't post this to the PVR side of this forum is because I think this affects E* as a whole, because lost customers mean higher rates and eventual bankruptcy for the company. Please submit any thoughts on the matter. :eek2:


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## SParker

You know guys this is really going to make me re-think my future 921 purchase. If I am going to pay $999 and on top of that $4.99 a month FORGET IT!

DISH NETWORK PLEASE RECONSIDER THIS IDEA!!!!!!!!!! :nono2:


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## tampa8

If Direct is not charging for TC+ customers, I would go so far as to say Dish could not charge for Top 150 & America's Choice, charge $4.99 for top100, and $9.99 for Top 50. But, with an exception. If you buy the top of the line 921, then either no charge at all, or at least not for Top 100 and up. If you are buying the 921 you are in it for the long haul in most cases. They will get your business for several years. I would think Dish would want to keep that customer and not nickel and dime them to death. I cannot prove it, but I suspect most anyone getting a 921 will be subscribing to Top 100 and above, maybe Top 150 and above.


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## gwynnebaer

What I see happening is fairly simple to decipher:

1. Echostar, like its rivals DTV and cable, put a premium on new customers. Existing customers do not drive up stock or make the company grow; new customers do. That means that a business decision that is disadvantageous to existing customers, even to the point of defection, is acceptable (I'll explain why in a moment). This point can be validated in many ways, such as hardware upgrade costs for existing customers, etc.

2. New customers of Echostar are one of three categories:
a) cable subscribers who know everything about monthly fees but want free hardware
b) DTV customers who have Tivo service, and are accustomed to the monthly fee for listings
c) DTV customers who don't have Tivo service and don't have a frame of reference; however, when comparing DTV Tivo service to Echostar DVR service, they will see that both charge a monthly fee (this levels the playing field).

Bring it together:

Echostar knows that regardless of the category you are in, *if you are new customer*, you will probably not care too much about the new fee. Since Echostar's primary goal is to bring in new customers, this brings the new customers in with a revenue stream that they will live with either because they already have lived with it (Tivo converts), or because they want the hardware for free (cable subscribers), and think they are getting ahead by paying a small fee over a long period of time. Simple math will prove them wrong, but that's an established business practice that most consumers fail to notice.

So what happens if existing customers who feel robbed become indignant and leave? Where will they go? The majority would not fall back to a scheme that does not involve digital time-shifting (ie, fall back to no PVR/DVR features), so that leaves them heading back to cable with Tivo or DTV with Tivo. They will now pay a fee just like Echostar customers will.

So, in another year, those defections will get sick of whatever it was they switched to, and forget the bad times at Echostar but remember the good ol' days, and consider switching back. Now, again, after paying a fee for Tivo for a year, paying Echostar's fee isn't such an indignant shock, and they switch back and pay the fee anyway.

And lo, Echostar has a new customer again (well, almost new, but close enough).

The moral in case you're still reading at this point: You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. My advice is to stick with Echostar but *fight* for the features you want to see. At least feel like you're getting your money's worth.


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## 418583

> So, in another year, those defections will get sick of whatever it was they switched to, and forget the bad times at Echostar but remember the good ol' days, and consider switching back. Now, again, after paying a fee for Tivo for a year, paying Echostar's fee isn't such an indignant shock, and they switch back and pay the fee anyway.
> 
> And lo, Echostar has a new customer again (well, almost new, but close enough).


Except for one fact...if I switch to a TiVo product, I'll never want to go back to inferior (features *and* quality) Dish DVRs!!

BTW, I just sent this to Dish Network via their web site...

_I have just read on dbstalk.com that you have a new receiver the DVR510. A bunch more disk space is great (I have a 501 and the disk is always full). Great news!

Then I read further that you are instating a monthly fee for the DVRs (I understand my current 501 is exempt).

Well, I *had* been saving for a 921 as soon as it came out but apparently buying one (at $999!) will force me to invest another $5 per month (forever!). No thanks!

When I fired the cable company, I chose Dish Network for one reason, a no monthly fee PVR. DirectTivo is (in my opinion) a better product but I decided I could live without some features to avoid a monthly fee. Also, recently my cable company has been trying to entice me back (their technology looks good but they cost more money per month).

Well, as near as I can tell sometime around when the 921 comes out I'll be looking at my HD DVR (TiVo) options from DirecTV and my local cable deals. If Dish still has a monthly fee on PVR/DVRs at that time it's probably time to say "Goodbye Dish".

What a shame...

Robert
_


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## Mark Lamutt

Agreed with everyone above. This is a just plain stupid move, and if it happens, the masses will leave. Including me.

I was the first one to preorder the 921 from Dish Depot. I'll be happy to give Mark my $50 to walk away from that deal to walk away from a $10 a month (in my case) fee. 

I've been a big Dish supporter for quite a while now. If Dish follows through with this plan, no more...


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## rtt2

Transcript of Q1 2003 EchoStar Communications Corp. Earnings Conference Call (Relevant Part):

KARIM ZIA: Charlie, along those lines, do you envision a point -- maybe over the next year -- where with the PVR, whether the tipping point is the 522 or some other break in the cost curve, where you make a big long-term bet on, you know, shifting your whole marketing emphasis to that product? 

CHARLIE ERGEN: I don't think you'll see us do that. I think the products complicated. I don't think it's for everybody. People who have PVR love it, whether they have a TIVO or a cable box or ours, but it's not for everybody. There's people who -- there's people who just -- I mean, this -- we are a country where when you go in somebody's house, the clock on the VCR is blinking. 

And a PVR is more complicated than that. So you have to be careful about -- about trying to put that in everybody's house. So -- and it does have more service calls, it is a moving part. It's -- you know, it -- it has the technology is changing rapidly, so I think -- I think that we have a lot of upside on PVR and we don't charge for it. For example, everybody else charges for it. There's an opportunity for us to charge for PVR. 

We're looking seriously at that we think that could make some sense under certain circumstances. And clearly it's a stickier customer, at least so far. So we think there's some opportunity there. But by no means do I think it's going to be the majority of -- of our industry customers for the foreseeable future.


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## MikeW

At least this topic got the forum active. Things have been pretty quiet for a while.


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## Mark Holtz

:lol: No, that's not why PVRs haven't taken off Charlie. 

Despite bar codes, VCR+, and automatic setting clocks, the VCR is hard to set up. Combine that with a cable box, and if you're lucky, your VCR can control the cable box. If you're unlucky, you may have to program a timer into the cable box.

In comparison, with a Dish PVR, you just select a program in the guide and press select or record. You're done. 

There may have been also a overestimation of how many people "time-shift" programming. People may just use the VCR to play back movie rentals. 

The problem with the PVR product is the price tag plus the monthly fees. A VCR or DVD player costs less than $100, which is the same price as a hard drive in a PVR. Add in the necessary hardware, and the DVR costs 3x as much as the VCR. Then, you look at the monthly cost of a DVR (standalone), and it's $14.99 for recording programs. Most of that is to get the rights to utilize the program lists. The only viable alternative, AFAIK, isn't available: You manually set the start, stop, and channel. That high price combined with the monthly fee has turned off a lot of people.

Dish and DirecTV have cut out some of the middle stuff. They already pay for the licensing of program data into their entire lineup of receivers long before the concept of a DVR was a viable option. They took out the encoder since, by it's very nature, the video IS compressed data. (The upcoming 921 will also record OTA digital broadcasts since they will be compressed also). And, if I recall correctly, the $4.95 fee that DirecTV charges for DirecTivo is to cover the licensing fees for the Tivo technology.

The DVRs do not have any other revenue sources. Compare that with the console game systems. They are often sold at or below cost, and the difference is made up in the selling of the games. The ink jet manufacturers often sell their printers at cost and turn around and make the money off the ink cartridges. (I swear, my mom goes the more ink cartridges than I do going through my toner cartridges for my 10yo HP LaserJet 4.)

If Dish was smart, they would initiate some sort of upgrade program so that those of us who want a 120GB hard drive in our 50xs can get them. What about the units that are turned in? Well, quite legally, you can't sell them as "new" since they are used, but you can sell them as "refurbished". Take the extra step in making sure they are already pre-loaded with the firmware and put on there some demo videos which, through the OpenTV interface, can be reloaded overnight. Then sell it as "DishDVR Basic" where you basically go: "Give our DVR product a try for 30 days. You can set up to 50 timers and record at least 30 hours of programming. If you don't like it, we'll take it back. If you do like it, you can pay $149 up front, or commit to at least AT-50/Dish Latino for one year and just pay $9.95 per month for 12 months. After 12 months, the unit is yours."

A few units should go along with the installers with the tag "Property of Dish Network-Not For Sale". The installer can then use it as a "known good" unit during the install, then use it to show off the DVR features. If the customer likes it, and wants to know more, it's a quickie upgrade, and grab a refurb from the truck.

This idea can then be inserted into customer's bills and plugged by Dish 101 and Charlie Chat. 

Now, doesn't THAT marketing scheme make more sense than this half-baked idea? By marketing it as "DishDVR Basic", the customer may get a 501 with 30 hours of record time or a 508 with 60 hours.


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## johntoto11

:grin: Speaking as an 'X' Dish PVR customer.I am sooo glad I purchased a DirecTV with TiVo receiver a few months ago. The difference between a Dish PVR and A DirecTV with TiVo DVR is truly like night and day!!To all you angry Dish subs out there....."Jump into DirecTV with TiVo now, the waters fine!" :grin: :grin: :grin:


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## Darkman

Yes (per Retailer Chat) - this new DVR fee will be receiver based...

Here some details of what they said:

DishDVR - 510 (PVR vs DVR - difference in the name i guess)
120 Gig HD, 100 hours recording..

DVR fees structure (mentioned above already)

Based on the above structure (they said) - this will be "the lowest cost DVR fees in America"

This cost will help - "cost efficiency", "will help to go forward", etc (approx. example of the words they used)

501s, 508s, 721s (etc - in case i missed any) - will become "grandfathered" receivers... Those will continue to have "No DVR fees"


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## Geronimo

According to this thread it is per unit.


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## Darkman

spanishannouncetable said:


> There's also nothing to indicate that the 522 and 921 WON'T have the fees. The info you posted stated that " The newest generation of DishDVRs (including the DishDVR 510) will have a tiered monthly DVR service fee that is determined by the level of the basic programming package that the customer subscribes to. "
> 
> The 501, 508, and 721 are already on the market, so I guess they are "last" generation DVRs. However, the 510, 522 and 921 are all not available as yet, so are they not "newest generation" DVRs ? The 510 is just a 508 with 40 extra gig on the hard drive, yet it still counts as a "newest generation" DVR with no real improvements.
> 
> I betcha that if the bottom-of-the-line 510 is considered next-gen, the dual-tuner dual-output 522 and the dual-tuner HD 921 will indeed be subject to the same fee.


I agree!
501, 508, 721 are already here...

however 522 and 921 are not here yet (so who knows if that still makes them "grandfathered" - hehe) - and therefore, who da heck knows if 522 and 921 will have this DVR fee...

But the way i interprete it so far (to-date) - 522 and 921 are not "grandfathered" yet (cuz not even out) - so if that is so - they should have this DVR fees (just following the logic)


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## Darkman

Chris, Scott - I guess you can see Dish following this thread?
(and that is why you say "Dish had been looking at this thread")?


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## dtcarson

I would tend to agree--certainly the Tivo is 'better' than Dish's PVR's featurewise; I didn't go with Dish for the PVR, it was a bonus. I went with the PVR in part because there was no monthly fee. I could deal without the 'season pass' or name-based stuff for saving that rental fee. But if the PVR starts being charged the same fee, or just slightly less, why would I stay with it, when I could spend a few more dollars and get many more features and power?

When I had just a VCR, I didn't do too much timeshifting--every now and then I'd tape a movie or special, and my wife would have me tape one of those silly reality shows. But now I have a PVR, everything I'm even slightly interested in I record, and I record about 5 shows daily for my son [he hasn't watched hardly any of them, but this way I can always find something suitable to put on for him.] I love the technology, and I'm going to keep it; but I'm glad the current models are grandfathered, because that monthly fee, specifically for the PVRs, would definitely be a vote against Dish/PVR.

I guess another question is, what does the fee go for? Do I get anything more out of the PVR, or am I simply being penalized for wanting a bigger hard drive? The 301 has a 2-day guide, the 50x has what, a 9-day guide? That's not worth even five bucks more a month for me. If there is a software upgrade [or total rewrite, more likely] that adds some Tivo-like features, that might add some value for which I'd be willing to pay; but currently, it seems they have taken a lesson from the cable/phone companies, and just charging a fee because they can.


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## Bob Haller

What sucks is the move to the 120 GIG drive is just because smaller drives are being phased out. GEEZ ITS NOT COSTING E ANYTHING EXTRA AND STAYING WITH THE EXISTING DRIVE WOULD COST THEM MORE.

Special orders and such.

This makes me want to become a hacker. Dish picking our pocket.

I will not steal service, this will be the end for me I will go with D.


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## Bob Haller

E should consider that microsofts ultimate tv unit was discontinued over such charges.

The extra fees will scare off new subs.


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## ocnier

The only problem with that is the tivo os is way superior to the dish configuration (this is only natural and to be expected since tivo has been the in the business way longer). So I do not agree that E* should charge pvr fees simply because D* does. I mean at some point you have to be honest withyourself if your Dish, and admit that you are the underdog/ no.2 guy and therefore act accordingly with regards to pricing and price points. This is especially true if your equipment is substandard in many ways to your competitor. E* really has yet to truly trump D* in terms of equipment quality. I simply preferred E* unlike D* because they were proconsumer and didn't use shady business tactics like charging a customer for equipment capabilities per month that customer really already bought and paid for when the he bought the unit (that to this day still burns me up about D*). As far as tv offering I think the two are split even. E* has the supers and I think a better pricing tier for packages, but D* has deathgrip on the pro sports offering, in particular the sunday ticket which is the largest single customer based sports package subscription in the U.S.


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## boba

Hey guys I started this thread and I 've got to say DISH needs to take a step back and look at themselves. I was already an unhappy camper and switched my home subscription to Directv 2 days before this chat. The fee on the DVR was just the last straw. In 2 days of having Directv I am much impressed by their service. My picture hasn't frozern, it hasn't digitized due to over compression or trying to fit too much information into too little bandwidth. On my RCA base receivers the picture in guide comes up in most cases before the guide is up, unlike the black box on 301s. I can search ahead three days in the guide without aquiring information. My caller ID even displays, all the features I expected, work as they are supposed to.

I think DISH'S problems all started about 2 years ago when Charlie got so involved in trying to buy DIRECTV that he let his company slip. He needs to go back and look at what made DISH succesful the dealers that supported him and the input that came back from them to him. The people that interacted with the customers. All the SEARS, SBC, and internet resellers bring in orders but they provide little feed back in the way the customer feels about the service DISH provides to the customer. I think the 4 pages of comments on this topic has released some of the displeasure customers feel about the quality of DISH'S service.


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## Bob Haller

Yes! I am tired of perodic tech troubles, and tv watchers should NOT have to be technicians.

Sadly if your a DISH sub tech you will become


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## Chris Blount

I have been quiet on this subject while reading the posts in this thread. There have been some very good points made.

However I guess I'm in the minority here. While I've always hated the DVR fee, its a necessary evil. How do we expect to see improvements to DVR products with no cash flow? It costs money for research, development and implementation of any product and without a viable source of continued income, the product will drop by the waste side. 

Sure, it's easy to say "Dish should be covering these costs through the collection of regular monthly fees." But what about the people without DVR's? Why should they have to pay for people who have them? 

I don't know. I guess I'm still undecided. Right now I subscribe to the Everything Pak so the fee won't affect me when I get a new receiver but frankly I think their DVR pricing structure is fair. Old receivers are grandfathered (which is a good thing in my book) and new DVR's will only carry a fee depending on which package you subscribe to. I don't have a problem with this. It's close to what DirecTV is doing so what's the big deal (although the functionality of their DVR's is better).

I know I will get flamed for this so go right ahead. The great thing is that this is a free country and I still have the right to choose my satellite provider. If at some point I decide to switch to DirecTV, I will, and Dish can't stop me. But at this point in time I won't be switching because of this new DVR pricing structure. Quite frankly it's not worth the trouble.


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## Lee L

Darkman said:


> Based on the above structure (they said) - this will be "the lowest cost DVR fees in America"
> 
> 501s, 508s, 721s (etc - in case i missed any) - will become "grandfathered" receivers... Those will continue to have "No DVR fees"


Thanks Charlie, pee in my shoe and tell me it's raining.

The whole use of the term "grandfathered" seems bad to me. What happens if I have a 721 and want to buy another? do I get spanked with 2 DVR fees or just one. It is of course very early and we are all reacting to the announcement without much clarification but the whole thing just opens up a huge can of worms.

I was planning on buying a 921 and then a 721 to get rid of my 2 DishPlayers and my 6000 and ensure that I would not be charged a $ 9.95 PVR fee since according to all of E*'s advertisements, the fact that they did not have a fee was a main selling point. I was going to be able to get a nice equipment upgrade (of course paying E* around $1500 plus whatever the superdish crap was going to cost me) and be able to save a little each month. Now it seems I might pay even more than the 3 extra receiver fees and the potnetial DP $9.95 a month. I guess we just can't assume that E* will not change their mind about everything now. That has been the real eye-opener for me. E* used to be the company that bragged about not raising rates for so many years and overall had a very customer friendly attitude. Now, it seems as if any statement made is for the short term only and cannot be relied upon for long term (more than one year) planning by customers.


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## scooper

The ONLY way I would pay a PVR/DVR fee would be if E* would go out and license the TIVO software to put in their DVR/PVR units. TIVO functionality would make the fee worth it - anything less is just gouging.

If the big concern is getting NEW customers in - offer an installment plan. Same plan would work for upgrading new customers - "here is your final price for an E* DVR" - and give them reasonable options on how to get there. But this idea of a fee in perpetuity for E* current level of software just doesn't float.

I MIGHT think about getting a 508 before 8/31, but I'm not forking out for a 522 now - not unless that fee goes away, or we start getting improved functionality for that fee.

Or here's another idea - 2 levels of DVR - no-fee, current timer based, or you pay for an upgrade to license TIVO - and this fee is account based, not receiver-based.


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## Bob Haller

Chris because the main cost of PVR for TIVO is providing the guide. E ALREADY does that so it doesnt cost anythin extra.

Besides as Charlie says PVR subs are sticky. We tend to not leave.

Chris is interesting to note that you agree the functionality of E PVRs is not as good as others.

Wonder why E accepts this?


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## ocnier

Scooper I can go for that, it's basically the way D* used do their accounts with tivo before they got mega greedy, however, I just don't see a marriage anytime soon with tivo and E*. If nothing else it would equipment release waaaaay back. Also all the money E* invested in R&D would be wasted.


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## jrbdmb

Darkman said:


> 501s, 508s, 721s (etc - in case i missed any) - will become "grandfathered" receivers... Those will continue to have "No DVR fees"


Just like those who bought the "Lifetime" Dishplayer service will never have to pay a fee ... :contract:
The last time I checked E* vs. D* for the programming I wanted, the costs were about even. If Charlie now decides to bump up my price of E* by $10/mo, D* is clearly the better value, esp. considering the quality of the TiVo product against the E* DVRs.



Chris Blount said:


> However I guess I'm in the minority here. While I've always hated the DVR fee, its a necessary evil. How do we expect to see improvements to DVR products with no cash flow? It costs money for research, development and implementation of any product and without a viable source of continued income, the product will drop by the waste side.


I would counter that the retail price of the DVR unit should cover all research / development cost.

Also note that non-PVR receivers also require research, development, SW maintenance, etc. These costs for all receivers is part of E*'s overhead, and should be included either in the purchase price of the receiver or as part of the standard monthly fee. There is no licensing fee's a la TiVo to justify a $5 - $10/mo charge per receiver. If E* follows this reasoning, I guess we'll could see new monthly charges for OpenTV, Dish Instant Weather, local channel remapping, guide searches, timers, using the 105 / 121 satellites, SuperDish, ...


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## jasonf

The huge shocker for me is that this fee is per receiver you own. I have 3 DTivo's and pay $4.99 for the PVR fee for all of them. I also can pick them up for $150 each or almost free as a new customer. I find it short sighted and stupid on their part in charging for a inferior product, and yes it is inferior as I have seen them all in action. (Of course the 522 and 921 maybe different, but we all now the truth there)

From reading what Charlie said earlier in this thread. I find he has no clue on what people use PVR's for, and if he was smart, he would make every receiver a PVR/DVR or whatever the hell they decided to call it. He would retain so many more customers doing that.....

I guess I'll be going with the Sony PSX when it comes out this Winter. It will have TIVO built in and maybe the 3day free guide version, will be a DVD +R/-R and is a playstation as well. 

Also, Blue laser recorders are coming out. Some will be 18-20 gig of space per DVD disk to 27gig on Sony's version. Dish will have to compete with all of these, and I would bet the Sony PSX is going to be what finally brings PVR's into the majority of homes. Especially if its at a $299 price point.


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## gor88

I am a former owner of a PVR508. Personally, E* is making a HUGE MISTAKE in charging a fee for PVR service. 

I now have a Hughes HDVR2 TiVo receiver and a Director Receiver with a Phase III dish. The rain fade occurs a little more frequently than with E*. However, the TiVo is so much easier to work with. My fiance had more difficulty learning the 508. When I got the TiVo, she mastered most functions within two weeks.

I went from AT150 with locals on one receiver to Total Choice + with locals and 2 receivers. I was paying $52.41 for E*. I now pay $53.47 for TC+, Tivo and second receiver. If I still only had one receiver, I would actually save $4 a month. 

D* gives me the low power UPN signal in Jackson, MS. E* is supposedly still in negotiations. At least they added WB, TWO MONTHS after locals became available. D* had all but UPN available on Day 1. UPN was turned on the next day. 

E* has also been delayed in adding new markets. D* has been delivering as promised. I didn't think Mom would get locals in Coffeeville, MS (Columbus, MS market) until roughly 2005. She's had them for one month and is very pleased.

My brother now has my old 508 and has thought about an upgrade. If E* charges a fee, he may decide to make the switch to D* as well.

Charlie, if you charge for the PVR, you had BETTER practically give away the locals like D* does. Also, why bother with a single tuner PVR now? The trend is going to dual tuner units, Charlie. As a former E* PVR subscriber, I will say that the dual tuner has come in VERY handy on several occasions in the two months I have had the TiVo. The ability to upgrade the hard drive in TiVo receivers is another plus that is BADLY needed. E* should make sure that all future DVR units have dual tuners and ability to upgrade hard drives.

It is things like this that convince me that the switch to D* was a good one.


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## angiodan

24 hours after hearing this news, and I'm still in shock. Chatting with Mark at Dish Depot, he agrees, this fee is going to be a killer. $5 per dvr, give me some of the stuff they're smoking.

I have also sent an email to Charlie (with a nice link to this thread). I can't wait to see what standard bs reply I'll get back.


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## John Walsh

I would rather never see a DVR fee from E*, I thought they were smarter than that. But then at least they gave a way out- Americas Everything Pack. I sold my Dishplayer partially because I didn't want to pay for PVR anymore (DVR...whatever you want to call it). Our DVR's from E* are a little buggy and not very feature packed or should I say smart.


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## dinkster

There is no doubt that the posture of Dish for their proposed "Monthly Fee" will determine who will provide my future service.

As others have noted, I too have a fully loaded 6000, 2 dishes, etc. and have been waiting for a very long time for the 921. In fact, I like this unit so much that the principal reason I watch the Tech Chat, Charlie Chat, and read many threads on DBSTalk and AVS is to learn as much as I possibly can about this new unit. I have been somewhat concerned about the problems experienced by users of the 721.

In order for me to install the new 921, I will spend an abundance of money to revamp my satellite system with the SuperDish, new cabling, 921, etc. In brief, rip out the existing system and replace it completely.

The good news is that as I am required to do all of this to enjoy the benefits of HD-PVR technology, I don't pay any real premium to replace my system with Direct TV/HD-Tivo. In fact, as a new subscriber to DirectTV, I would get new subscriber benefits from Direct that Dish seems to take for granted.

True, I'm only one consumer and I'm sure that Dish will do just fine without my business. But I have been a loyal customer for many many years, Americas Everything, CCAutoPay. I would have thought that I would be precisely the target demographic that Dish would love to keep.

I honestly don't understand this position of Dish. They will lose my business.

Time to research the HD-Tivo.


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## DenR

I was considering purchasing a 921 when it came out. However, considering this latest move by dish, I am not going to do that. We call know that Tivo's have more functionality than the dish DVRs. I lived with that because I prefer dish programing and there was no fee on the unit. Now everything has changed. If I'm going to pay a $4.99 fee, I expect the same level of functionality that the Tivo offers.

Yesterday morning I would never have imagined myself saying this: I am considering switching to DirectTV. I will pass on the 921 and wait for the HD Tivo to come out and make the move.


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## hokie94

Although this was a few months ago, I wonder if customers in the states listed in the article can go to their Attorneys General and argue that E* is upto its old tricks

EchoStar Reaches Agreement with 13 States
Thursday May 22, 2:49 pm ET

LITTLETON, Colo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 22, 2003--EchoStar Communications Corporation (NasdaqISH - News) announced today that its subsidiary, EchoStar Satellite Corporation, has entered into an agreement with 13 state attorneys general resolving a dispute about the processes used in advertising disclosures, customer relationship and similar issues relating to EchoStar and its independent retailers.

EchoStar is confident its practices have at all times complied with applicable law and entered into the settlement in order to avoid costly and potentially protracted litigation. There was no finding of any violation or wrongdoing by the company and each state released EchoStar from all matters investigated.

To promote continued customer satisfaction, under the Voluntary Assurance of Compliance agreement reached today, EchoStar agreed to implement enhancements to its processes, including recording some customer calls for verification purposes. The 13 states include the following: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, and Wisconsin.

"Customer satisfaction has always been a top priority for our company and we always look for new ways to improve our product offering," said Charles Ergen, chairman and CEO of EchoStar. "We are pleased to work with the state attorneys general in a cooperative manner to enhance and strengthen our product offering for consumers."

EchoStar Communications Corporation (NasdaqISH - News), through its DISH Network(TM), is a leading U.S. provider of satellite television entertainment services with 8.53 million customers. DISH Network provides advanced digital satellite television services to the home, including hundreds of video, audio and data channels, personal video recording, HDTV, sports and international programming, professional installation and 24-hour customer service. For more information on DISH Network, visit www.dishnetwork.com, call 800/333-DISH (3474) or contact your local DISH Network retailer.


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## Darkman

Well - about what Chris said above, - quoting Retailer Chat, Dish did say something like that (among other things stated earlier in this thread) : "the DVR fees also nessesary to allow Us to get Aggressive with DVR technology and/or development" ( something like that was said  )


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## jeffwtux

What should really be alarming to Charlie is that all of this outrage(5 pages of postings and counting in less than 24 hours!!!) is from a Charlie Chat that customers couldn't even see!! I couldn't imagine the outrage if this was mentioned in the regular Charlie Chat.


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## Bob Haller

I do agree the 510 is a mistake, better to just build the 522. Fewer models would hopefully equal less bugs....

Womder what mu 508s and 721 will fetch on ebay?


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## jasonf

Darkman said:


> "the DVR fees also nessesary to allow Us to get Aggressive with DVR technology and/or development" ( something like that was said  )


Ok, why not save that money, and just license TIVO's software, and charge what Dtivo charges. Someone how he thinks he can make his own for cheaper and better. However, he makes his own buggier and they cost more. Man, they should have brought replay when they had the chance....


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## jasonf

Bob Haller said:


> I do agree the 510 is a mistake, better to just build the 522. Fewer models would hopefully equal less bugs....
> 
> Womder what mu 508s and 721 will fetch on ebay?


I bet total Bob you could make $500+, get 2 Dtivo's and be up $200+ which you could put towards a years worth of programming almost. Those apples look pretty good to me.

Man I was really thinking the 522 was going to be awesome with no extra receiver fee....If it worked I would have maybe switched just for grins. Not anymore. I can never justify paying a fee for something that doesn't do name based recording.


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## cnsf

Z'Loth said:


> If they seriously intend to follow through on this, expect DirecTV to come out with the DirecTivo HVR2+ with a 120GB hard drive and a nice offer for existing DishPVR customers.


Don't count on this as I'm sure you know the DirecTivos are very easy to upgrade on your own. Most people that need that space are usually the gadget heads like me. I would rather get an HD deal at techbargains for $80 with a $12 9thTee bracket and add a second drive than spend an extra $200 for the bigger factory unit.

I think the next focus is an HD Tivo.


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## Randy_B

> Existing customers do not drive up stock or make the company grow; new customers do. That means that a business decision that is disadvantageous to existing customers, even to the point of defection, is acceptable


But churn/turnover IS a big consideration for Wall St. Just look at the shenanigans that Charter has been caught pulling trying hide customer defections. Besides, profits do not come from new, subsidized customers. It is the old, long timers like me and others that account for profits. I bought my 2000 for more than $300 in '96. No subsidies, just straight profit to E* bottom line from my subscription. Loosing a sizeable chunk of their original subscriber base (that will be the defecting group) will have a visible impact on their filings.

E* always tried to justify the DP fee by saying that MS made them charge, it was in the contract agreement for the joint development of the DP and WebTV software. No such excuse here.

510 IS the 501 software package, noting new but a $99 HD. The 921 IS the 721 software package (even the same chipset!), so there is not a huge R&D effort for this new receiver. Software costs are already sunk. I would have to assume the 522 will be either the 50x or 721 under the hood.

Finally, this just really flies in the face of all the interactive TV, DVR analysts predictions for market growth. Even with E* not having a DVR fee and DirecTivo have a $5 fee, ALL the analysts see cable industry as the REAL growthin the DVR market. The reports I have read recently all have the cablecos surpassing multi million #s in subscribers in the next couple of years. By far surpassing E*'s moderate growth which leads the market for now. E* MUST fight cable incursion, domination of DVR market. This bonehead move only feeds it. Look at E*'s subscriber numbers, the 50x and 721 are driving their growth right now. The cheap 301 isn't it! $5-$10 PER RECEIVER will not be a nick to marketing vein, it will be a slice to an artery.

Finally, this isn't a blunder on the part of the marketing dept. Jim DeFranco, the #2 guy, MADE the announcement. This pile of steaming doo comes with the Corporate HQ blessing!!!

No doubt this is a real firestorm in the making. I can't remember the last time I saw this kind of near unanimous, instant anger. And of course E* Execs have their heads buired up their arses, no attempts at rumor control or an effort to "correct" the context if we are all misreading this. The only time to stop this kind of bad press is immediately. Rule of thumb for folks in Crisis Mgmt PR is 48 hrs to TAKE control, after that it takes on a life of its own and the company can only react afterwards and try to defend, which doesn't work well.

Completely unbelievable.


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## awax

Wolffpack said:


> New to this forum, have never even seen any DISH products but been a DirecTV customer for > 5 years and DTivo since January.
> 
> Does the statement above mean you cannot search for programs to record based on title, or setup a "season pass" to record all occurances of a show like you can with Tivo? :eek2:


You can search for a show by name but for example say The Simpsons come on everyday at 6:00pm and I have a timer set up for that, well there just happens to be a one hour Simpsons special the my "DVR" would only record 30 min. of it because it is not smart enough to see that in the guide The Simpsons is scheduled for an hour today not the normal 30 min.

Tivo or Ultimate TV would catch this and record the whole thing.

Season Pass and Wishlists are nonexistent.


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## BobMurdoch

OK, I understand the outrage for the AT50 folks and I agree that the concept of a monthly fee is stupid when your product costs hundreds more than the alternative (I'm talking existing subscribers who upgrade).

However, I do like one shift....... The idea of rewarding subscribers who purchase bigger ticket programming packages.

I am an AEP subscriber and will not have to pay any fees. Are there any others out there who hate the concept of a monthly fee, but like the fact that they are taking care of their higher profit customers?


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## Scott Gammans

First post here! Too bad it's on this subject.

I _was_ considering buying a compete Echostar system when the DISH 921 arrived (dish+PVR) but this monthly fee now makes it a tossup between Echostar and DirecTV when the HD TiVo arrives. Echostar isn't shooting itself in the foot, it's machine-gunning itself.


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## razorbackfan

I had planned to upgrade to the 921, there's $1,000.00, plus I'll have to get the Super Dish, whatever that's gonna cost, then pay a monthly service fee? There's another $100.00 a year, plus pay for programming, plus pay for the HD channels, plus pay for locals...then in 2 more years, Dish comes out with a Super-Duper Dish or something you have to upgrade to in order to watch tv, and new fees. 

I remember the last tech chat when they guy snickered about since we paid for our HDTV equipment we're just gonna have to pay more for Dish too. Maybe that's the prevailing thought at Dish now. 

As much as I HATE Cox Cable, their new digital service sure sounds inviting. Either that or I'm gonna look into D*.


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## jasonf

This is crazy, I wonder when Matt Drudge will pick this story up 

Ok lets place bets what happens with all of this -

1. Mark from DishDepot will start selling Direct TV too. 
2. The next amazing race contest will be for a free HD TIVO or atleast a series 2
3. Dish will annouce there was some miss information, and the fee's cover all receivers. (my gut says they will wake up and change that, if they don't they are trully Aholes IMO)
4. Scott willl become best frineds with TIVO Pony and will be beta tesing the HD Tivo 
5. Both dbsforums and dbstalk will mend and become a fource against the evil Charlie, with a new URL dbstalkforums.com
6. This is the most entertainment we've all had in a long time....

Disclaimer: This was all in fun, so don't flame me, but I bet atleast one of those things come true


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## Bob Haller

Hey we should e mail sky reports. Last time I did that it got Es attention real fast

It was over the DP, after a month of non returned e mails one contact to sky got soyras office to call me first thing in the AM and offer me a 508 for $99

I guess E is ready to take the hit.


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## Scott Greczkowski

jasonf said:


> This is crazy, I wonder when Matt Drudge will pick this story up
> 
> Ok lets place bets what happens with all of this -
> 
> 1. Mark from DishDepot will start selling Direct TV too.


The do already. http://www.dishdepot.com/Cart/items.php?CA=DIRECTV&UID=



> 2. The next amazing race contest will be for a free HD TIVO or atleast a series 2


We gave a DirecTivo away on our last Survivor Contest


> 4. Scott willl become best frineds with TIVO Pony and will be beta tesing the HD Tivo


Hey I would not mind that, I will test and review ANY DBS equipment sent to me. Its free advertising for whoever. 


> 5. Both dbsforums and dbstalk will mend and become a fource against the evil Charlie, with a new URL dbstalkforums.com


It would be a COLD day 


> 6. This is the most entertainment we've all had in a long time....


After a long dull summer it is good to see people taking a stand.


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## RyMcQ

A question from a former Dish subscriber and current DirecTiVo owner:

Why all the handwringing?

It seems that many of you recognize that TiVo is better, more stable, and more useful, even if it is $5 more a month. (I'd still gladly pay 10.) Some of you may also recognize that DTV has more bandwidth and (in my experience) has better picture quality for locals (80% of my viewing). Additionally, you just don't know what you are missing if you haven't used a PVR with 2 tuners.

Are you worried about going over to the dark side after being a Dish advocate?

My brother, after we both had DTiVo for a year, asked which I'd give up first: color TV or TiVo? The fact that it is tough question for me is telling. As for the Dish PVR (which I used for over one month while visiting my in-laws), the question would be: Would it be worth the effort to replace a DTV/VCR setup with Dish PVR? I honestly don't know the answer to that!


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## treiher

*Originally posted by rtt2:*


> CHARLIE ERGEN: I don't think you'll see us do that. I think the products complicated. I don't think it's for everybody. People who have PVR love it, whether they have a TIVO or a cable box or ours, but it's not for everybody. There's people who -- there's people who just -- I mean, this -- we are a country where when you go in somebody's house, the clock on the VCR is blinking.
> 
> And a PVR is more complicated than that. So you have to be careful about -- about trying to put that in everybody's house. So -- and it does have more service calls, it is a moving part. It's -- you know, it -- it has the technology is changing rapidly, so I think -- I think that we have a lot of upside on PVR and we don't charge for it. For example, everybody else charges for it. There's an opportunity for us to charge for PVR.
> 
> We're looking seriously at that we think that could make some sense under certain circumstances. And clearly it's a stickier customer, at least so far. So we think there's some opportunity there. But by no means do I think it's going to be the majority of -- of our industry customers for the foreseeable future.


This quote sure explains a lot! Now I know why the 721 and other PVR software support has been so lacking. The top guy in the company views this is as a niche market. Rather than acknowledging the problem, and making a positive statement as to how they are going to make it simpler for those people and expand its use, he basically writes it off as too complicated for us dumb consumers. Maybe, just maybe, if they get with the program, release some software, and make the units easier to use, more people would use them! And if they had decent support on those units, this so called new DVR fee would at least pass the laugh test. But, they would have to do that first. Maybe their plan is the PVR units cost a lot for them to support (with hardware and software upgrades) and so they need a fee to cover that cost. But how do we know they won't just add the fee and nothing will change. Seems to me, they have to provide greatly improved support first, then justify it with the fee. Still not sure I would go along with that, but at least it would be easier to understand!

Bottom line . . . they do this, and I will not get a 921. My bill is high enough already, and I don't need to pay an additional $5 a month for the privilege of using this very expensive unit. And ultimately (notice I didn't use the word eventually. I know Dish understands that word to mean someday, maybe, but definitely not for a long time), I will leave Dish Network.


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## treiher

And another thing . . . I suspect a major reason why most of their subscribers to not have PVR units is because if you look at most of the Echo* promotions over the past few years aimed at getting new customers, they almost always are focused around a low cost package which includes several of the older 301 units. Yes, we see some promotions now on the PVR's, but they have driven their new customer base toward the non PVR units whether they intended to or not.


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## Mike123abc

Chris Blount said:


> I have been quiet on this subject while reading the posts in this thread. There have been some very good points made.
> 
> However I guess I'm in the minority here. While I've always hated the DVR fee, its a necessary evil. How do we expect to see improvements to DVR products with no cash flow? It costs money for research, development and implementation of any product and without a viable source of continued income, the product will drop by the waste side.
> 
> Sure, it's easy to say "Dish should be covering these costs through the collection of regular monthly fees." But what about the people without DVR's? Why should they have to pay for people who have them?
> 
> I don't know. I guess I'm still undecided. Right now I subscribe to the Everything Pak so the fee won't affect me when I get a new receiver but frankly I think their DVR pricing structure is fair. Old receivers are grandfathered (which is a good thing in my book) and new DVR's will only carry a fee depending on which package you subscribe to. I don't have a problem with this. It's close to what DirecTV is doing so what's the big deal (although the functionality of their DVR's is better).
> 
> I know I will get flamed for this so go right ahead. The great thing is that this is a free country and I still have the right to choose my satellite provider. If at some point I decide to switch to DirecTV, I will, and Dish can't stop me. But at this point in time I won't be switching because of this new DVR pricing structure. Quite frankly it's not worth the trouble.


The same can be said about ANY reciever. They all have software that is being fixed and upgraded all the time. Yes the DVR software is more complex but they charge more up front for the DVRs. Dish makes money on DVRs now because people subscribe to Dish and pay for programming for their DVRs.

It brings up the question if they are going to be doing the fees why do they charge $5/month extra for "mirroring"? Do you think it really costs them more than 1-2 cents per month to add an extra reciever (beyond the first month to put in the computer)? Lets see an extra line on the bill if you get paper bills, two extra numbers in the database (reciever/smartcard numbers). So, for every DVR you add to your AT50 account you are adding $4.98 to Dish's monthly profit as it currently stands.

Yes it is a free country and Dish can charge what they like. But, the problem is that they may just charge themselves out of business.

Yes I subscribe to the AEP, so it probably would not affect me at all, but I do not want to feel like I am trapped in the package to avoid fees. If I ever wanted to drop the AEP, I may as well drop Dish.


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## RAD

Chris Blount said:


> However I guess I'm in the minority here. While I've always hated the DVR fee, its a necessary evil. How do we expect to see improvements to DVR products with no cash flow? It costs money for research, development and implementation of any product and without a viable source of continued income, the product will drop by the waste side.


Chris, sorry but I don't agree at all with this reasoning. What you're saying could go farther, a new monthly charge on the 821 to cover future development. Why not go farther, you buy your next Ford, but they will charge you an extra $50 a month to help design next years model.

The cost for R&D of a product needs to go into the purchase price of a product and that product only, not forcing a user to pay a monthly fee to cover your R&D for something in the future that I may not want.

Really all I want in a PVR is the ability to time shift. I don't need OpenTV games/news/customer service etc. So if that's what you thing the $4.99 would go to, more application like that, Dish is pushing me away as a customer.


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## MNToyx4

As a subscriber to AEP, I am excited to see Dish reward higher profit customers. If Charlie decides to charge an extra fee for AEP subscribers with the 921, then I will issue and RUN to the competition.



BobMurdoch said:


> OK, I understand the outrage for the AT50 folks and I agree that the concept of a monthly fee is stupid when your product costs hundreds more than the alternative (I'm talking existing subscribers who upgrade).
> 
> However, I do like one shift....... The idea of rewarding subscribers who purchase bigger ticket programming packages.
> 
> I am an AEP subscriber and will not have to pay any fees. Are there any others out there who hate the concept of a monthly fee, but like the fact that they are taking care of their higher profit customers?


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## baloo75

I too am not happy with this news.

The ONLY reason I went with Dish originally was because there were no PVR fees. Their service isn't any better D*, and the only advantage they have over cable is with quality, though cable would get me signal for free on ALL the TVs in my house.

*(OK Now on soapbox)*

When I here about Dish needs to charge a monthly fee to recoup R&D costs this is rediculous. Look at it this way, would you buy a digital camera, refrigerator, TV, PC, insert your favorite electronic device here, if you had to pay a monthly fee on top of the initial purchase, I didn't think so. This is why manufacturers recoup their investment in the purchase price. Now on top of all this Echostar gets an annuity on top of this in the form of monthly programming fees.

If Echostar can't make money charging me $500 for a 721 then something is wrong. The hardware costs are not even close to $500 (when mass produced) this leaves R&D, manufacturing and I would bet the largest amount being support costs. Echostar needs to take a good look at their R&D department and determine why their devices fail so often (part of this is HW/Electronics and part of this is Software). A PC with twice the storage capability, and probably 100 times the processing power/memory costs much less than this receiver costs. All these things are is a PC with an MPEG2 decoder. Reducing their support/operating costs is the answer now P#$%@ off their customers.

Customers MUST come first for a company to be successful!

*Whew...Ok off soapbox*

To the people talking about selling their equipment on EBAY, I would wait, once they start charging a monthly fee for the new equipment the grandfathered equipment will be worth a premium on the open market.

TIVO sure looks interesting now, if nothing else out of principle


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## Matt Stevens

All I can say is that I was going to get a 921. I have no PVR now. If they want to charge me $5 in addition to the $4 or so additional receiver fee charge, then I will be talking to my local cable company. The 921 is going to be huge bucks. HUGE. And to charge us a monthly fee on top of that is not only greedy, it's rude. It's a slap in our face.

Wake up Charlie.


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## SParker

Charlie Ergen is making a move to the dark side! Tomorrow he will reveal himself as the new Emperor Darth Greedious!


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## bishoptf

New member, long time dish 501 user. 

The only reason and only reason I put up with the DISH PVR was the lack of a FEE. I have been waiting and waiting for the 921 and wanted to buy as soon as it was available, but if DISH thinks that the software they have in their PVR is worth a fee then they are LOONEY TUNES. This is not a threat but a promise to DISH, if this is true and they are going to start charging a fee then I will GLADLY switch to Directv, without hesitation. Even though I will have the Tivo fee, IMO I will be receiving a superior product. I will wait for the HD Direct Tivo unit to be released. It will be very interesting to see how all of this unravels.


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## pjmrt

Hey Scott,
I notice 6 pages of posts (and not one of them positive regarding D* announcement) all in about a day. Anyone in Echostar taking note of all this?


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## Scott Greczkowski

I emailed Charlie and Jim and lerted them to this thread (I have heard nothing back from them yet)

I have also emailed in a bunch of comments in to Marc Lumpkin and have also heard nothing from him as of yet.

Checking the board stats I can see that Dish is indeed reading this.

Lets hope they make some changes based on the consumer opinion.


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## dinkster

In reading through these posts, I would like to think that Dish should take some serious notice of the overwhelming feelings expressed here. As someone noted earlier, all of this from a retailer chat not even seen by subscribers.

If this level of resistance is reflected by the members of this forum, who (and I count myself among them) are THE foremost users most inclined to purchase Dish's premium services and hardware, how do they expect to expand their premium tier programming base.

I for one, have no problem with spending an additional $11/Mo for additional HD programming, in fact I would gladly call and order it today if it was made available. 

Bob Haller posed a very valid question for me. As a premium tier AEP subscriber, the fee would not apply to me. What rubs me the wrong way is once I have spent say around $1200 to buy the 921, SuperDish, new cabling, and commit to spend another $11/Mo, I'm locked in to Dish. I just can't afford to throw all of that away in the event that Dish changes the parameters that forces me to expend additional monthly PVR/DVR fees should they so decide. Dish doesn't have a great track record in that regard.

As I have wanted a HD-PVR for some time now, with the new offerings (hopefully) finally becoming available in the next 3-5 months, I will have to decide upon my upgrade path to HD-PVR prior to the end of the year. Actually without this Fee development, I would have purchased a 921 as soon as available.

I'm miffed that I now have to move that decision point out even further to seriously consider moving to HD-Tivo, which based upon what I know about Tivo, has the appeal of a superior search and programming functionality.


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## bishoptf

Dinkster quote:

"I for one, have no problem with spending an additional $11/Mo for additional HD programming, in fact I would gladly call and order it today if it was made available. "

I agree, I was prepared to do exactly the same thing, buy the 921 and the HD packake that they were coming up with. If they proceed with the fee then I will go with the HD directv Tivo route.


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## bogi

This gives the VCR a few more years of life  No buggy software to worry about or any monthly fees.


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## dishrich

Chris Blount said:


> It's close to what DirecTV is doing so what's the big deal (although the functionality of their DVR's is better).


Hmm, lets see a comparison:

(for 1 PVR on an account)
E*: AT100, SINGLE tuner PVR 510 = $5 DVR fee
D*: TC, DUAL tuner D-Tivo = $5 DVR fee

(for 2 PVR's on an account)
E*: AT100, 2 SINGLE tuner PVR510 = $10 DVR fee
D*: TC, 2 DUAL tuner D-Tivo's = $5 DVR fee

So, in the 2nd instance, I'm getting FOUR tuners worth of PVR for $5 on D*, while on E* I'm only getting TWO tuners worth of PVR for $10 - 1/2 the convenience at double the price; yea, it's a pretty close comparison Chris...
 :lol: !rolling :nono2: 
(I won't even bother with the OBVIOUS regarding the Tivo software vs the lousy one from E*)


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## jasonf

Scott Greczkowski said:


> The do already. http://www.dishdepot.com/Cart/items.php?CA=DIRECTV&UID=
> 
> We gave a DirecTivo away on our last Survivor Contest
> 
> Hey I would not mind that, I will test and review ANY DBS equipment sent to me. Its free advertising for whoever.
> 
> It would be a COLD day
> 
> After a long dull summer it is good to see people taking a stand.


Just goes to shows how much I know..... 0


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## dbronstein

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say this is a smart move for Dish. The vast majority of people still don't know what a pvr/dvr is, let alone have them. Tivo has set the standard of paying a monthly fee to use them. Dish is figuring that as more people become aware of them and buy them, they will accept monthly fees as standard. And that's probably a safe bet. Plus people who aren't sure about going to a higher package might be more willing to do so if they get their dvr fee waived as part of the deal.

And everyone here overlooks that this is a very small minority of Dish's customers. They might be higher-end customers, but I would still say that if everyone here left Dish, they probably wouldn't even notice.

Dennis


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## chris_h

Of all the threads I have ever read, this is the one that must have the D* folks salivating the most.

I really expected Dish to send a message thru the back-channels by now to the effect of "no, the monthly fee is only if you want the 510 unit for free, no monthly fee if you buy it outright." This "buy the PVR as you go" would be a good strategy to get more PVRs in the hands of Dish customers. PVR customers are more likely to enjoy more programming, which would make it easier to keep them as a customer (reduce churn).

It seems like Dish does not realize a few things:
1) The current PVR software is correctly priced at "free." If it had all of the features of Tivo, it would be worth $5/month (to me).
2) The members of these forums are the ones that recommend technology to their family/friends/co-workers. If you think you are just upsetting a few thousand customers, think again.
3) The excitement surrounding the 921 will disappear if it costs $999 and has a monthly fee. I have already confirmed that Mark at Dish Depot will not charge the $50 cancellation fee if I chose not to take my pre-ordered 921. The HD Tivo will likely come to market around the same time as the 921.


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## johnsbin

Not to throw a wet blanket on this energetic discussion but here goes:

I think E* has looked at what D* is charging and are interested in looking similar in fee schedules and services while still touting more HD and other extras. They know that this new FEE schedule will possibly run off the few hundred of us that don't like it and know better, but MILLIONS of users out there have NO IDEA what the difference is and will never know any different. The steady flow of new subscribers always jumps around the holidays, so they need to get the fee speed bump out and over with so that there is no noise about come December.

The herding masses don't know and probably wouldn't see any difference between D*Tivo and DishPVR/DVR. Think about how many out there have cheap TVs, AM radio in the dash, and constantly rebooting PCs the kids use because the adults have no idea how it works. It's all Tivo to them if they can even figure out how to use it.

The smart shopper will play the "Trade Up" promotions against each other to keep getting the best products and services because they notice and want it. The rest of the world still thinks you have to take a video tape out of your camcorder and get it developed somewhere.


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## bills976

There's a reason why my avatar is a T60... it's because I'm PROUD of the product. It has done everything I have asked of it, never once has crashed, and the $4.99 monthly fee is worth every penny in my book. About a month ago there was a mini-flame war between E* PVR owners and D* Tivo owners about who's got the superior product. The main point buttressing the Echostar supporters was the no-frills, fee free PVR argument.

Now that point is gone and a straight-up comparison between a 510 and an HDVR2 is almost laughable. These two are supposed to be competing products, yet the 510 lacks a second tuner, name based recording, and the ability to upgrade the hard drive. While that might have been acceptable if there was no monthly fee, now there is. Incentive gone.

I think the real troubling thing for E*, mainly its investors, is Charlie's admission that PVRs are fringe products that mainstream users will not adopt. Any Directv customer will tell you that the majority of in-house commericals done by Directv, other than PPV, are for the HDVR2. They are trying to get Tivo to become more mainstream. When I had Echostar, I saw none of that with the exception of the Charlie Chats, which aren't watched by the majority of the subscriber base. I would at least like to see a company TRY to market its marquee product instead of just sweeping it under the carpet.


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## Randy_B

> They know that this new FEE schedule will possibly run off the few hundred of us that don't like it and know better


If Dish had the great visibility of a huge national chain of retailers like DirecTV has, then perhaps it would be the case. Dish does not have a national chain of electronic reps pushing their products. Sams Club and Walmart do nothing to push product out the door (at our Sams club, the loner in the Cingular booth handles Dish equipment and the Wal-Mart has only ever carried the 301s!). Dish has built itself and continues to build its customer base off existing subscriber referrals and local installers/retailers (who have been screwed over enough over the last few years to be less than fully loyal to Charlie et al). Plus, it is not just the few hundred here. This group is more like a focus group and is probably statistically representative of a lot more subscribers. So Dish looses the folks they are making profits off of (subscribers with no subsidies or subsidy is already covered and gone) and loses the visibility they get through these members, they get lots of bad press in the trade papers via "word of mouth finally turns on "homey" satellite provider" headlines, and they BECOME solely dependent on the greeters at Wal-Mart to sell the curious a product that Charlie sez is so technical to begin with that people are afraid of it. RIGHT!

People are more forgiving of paying additional fee for something they can touch, like a second receiver, tacking on another fee for something they cannot actually describe won't float. Demographically, for people who only subscribe to AT50 ($24.99), the $10 fee but is a nearly 40% increase in their package price (_fixed my bad math_) !!!!! Sell that to the mass market.


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## Neil Derryberry

> Dish does not have a national chain of electronic reps pushing their products.


That's just not true. You can buy the 301, 501/508, 721 and 6000 at Sears, and they exclusively sell Dish Network. The HDTV barker channel is playing on all of the Sears HDTV's, and incidentally, Sears is where I got my first Dish subscription over 3 years ago. You can even buy receivers online on sears.com...


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## johnsbin

Randy_B you pointed out something I keep forgetting since I don't look to see where Dish is being sold. Dish doesn't have any solid marketing plan - I've just been a customer since the beginning so I never paid attention to the marketing.

I always irks me to no end that I keep seeing all these D* ads while watching my DishNetwork service!

I'm gonna really hate seeing my E* equipment go the same route my Amiga computer went.


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## hokie94

The numbers just don’t add up. Walk through the numbers with me:

New subs added each quarter is about 400,000 (their last SEC filing on March 31, 2003, it was at 350,000, but I want to be aggressive about new subs). 

Let’s say, 75% (300,000) wind up with the 510 or better (again, I believe somewhat aggressive)
Let’s say the average fee is about $5.99 assuming 60% of new subs with DVR are charged $4.98, 10% have Everything Pak and no charge, and 30% have AT50 and are charged $9.99.

$5.99 * 300,000 = $1,797,000 of revenue per quarter

Number of outstanding shares = 482,000,000

Revenue per share per quarter because of this fee = $0.00372

I find it hard to believe that E* would be willing to go through all the bad publicity over this for a measly 3/10 of a penny per share per quarter. 

I wonder if their marketing department is aware that there is an investor relations department.


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## boba

Lets see Wal Mart/SAMS Club, SEARS, RADIO SHACK all are major retailers. SBC the telephone company in 13 states also retails DISH Network. RCA makes the units sold in Radio Shack and Wal Mart I think they are a significant name in retail electronics. I would say DISH has a significant presence in major retail markets. But in these markets they mainly sell the base model receiver simply on a low price basis through "order takers".


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## EvanS

Randy_B said:


> ... who only subscribe to AT50 ($24.99), the $10 fee but is a nearly 71% increase in their package price (24.99 / 34.99 = .71240) !!!!! Sell that to the mass market.


Randy - not at all to nitpick but the increase is really 40% - ($10.00/$24.99)

no that the percentage changes things...just doing my duty :sure:


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## Win Joy Jr

First off, not wanting to toss a 5 gallon can of gas onto the fire, but I must... Where would the E* subs go when they were not happy of the merger had gone thru??? This is EXACTLY what a bunch of us were talking about when the D* / E* "merger" was planned.

Now, to the planned "fee"...

First off - a PER UNIT FEE??? This gives the advantage to D*.

Second - I THINK they are trying to compete with the DirecTV DVR. Fee is just not the only item. The software, from what I have read on the forums, is just not in TiVo's league.

Third - You are now putting yourself in the position of offering one deal to one group of customers, but not another who may be paying the same. Grandfathering may become a bit of a nightmare when neighbors compare costs, and they will...

IMHO, E* has done nothing to strengthen its DVP position. It has just stirred up the masses.


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## Chris Blount

Many of you disagreed with my last post and I can understand that. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that switching to DirecTV right now because of a pending DVR fee is not worth my time and money. I have 2 dishes, an SW64, 3 receivers (including a 6000 that received local HDTV) and the SUPERSTATIONS!!! I like my system and it gives me what I want and a few things DirecTV cannot.

The DVR is only one part of a larger entertainment value I get from Dish. The possibility of the fee just doesn't weigh heavily enough to dismantle what I have built and payed for.

Now some of you with smaller systems with practically no investment, I can understand your eagerness to switch.


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## Big Bob

Question.

Can a regular Tivo unit (not one specifically for satellite) operate if you don't pay the fee?
Can you buy the unit, not pay the fee and still be able to record shows through some sort of a vcr-like interface where you put in the times or pause live shows?


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## DenR

Chris Blount said:


> Many of you disagreed with my last post and I can understand that. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that switching to DirecTV right now because of a pending DVR fee is not worth my time and money. I have 2 dishes, an SW64, 3 receivers (including a 6000 that received local HDTV) and the SUPERSTATIONS!!! I like my system and it gives me what I want and a few things DirecTV cannot.
> 
> The DVR is only one part of a larger entertainment value I get from Dish. The possibility of the fee just doesn't weigh heavily enough to dismantle what I have built and payed for.
> 
> Now some of you with smaller systems with practically no investment, I can understand your eagerness to switch.


Chris,

The problem for many of us is that while we do have an investment in dish equipment, we are thinking about making a very large additional investment in the 921. This will be more than all of my current investment. Given the lower price of DirectTV equipment in general, it would probably be cheaper to switch.


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## santellavision

Dish if you are reading this...

If you charge us, We will not Buy the 921! 
And as you can read, we will go elsewhere.


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## Scott Greczkowski

I just received an email from Jim DeFranco, in it he started that all upcoming DVRs will have this DVR Charge, he mentioned that the DVR's will be reduced if the customer takes a better programming package.

I wrote back to him and asked him to confirm that the 921 and 522 will indeed have a monthly DVR fee, and again I pointed him to this thread to see everyones feedback.

Let's hope he looks.


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## spanishannouncetable

Big Bob said:


> Question.
> 
> Can a regular Tivo unit (not one specifically for satellite) operate if you don't pay the fee?
> Can you buy the unit, not pay the fee and still be able to record shows through some sort of a vcr-like interface where you put in the times or pause live shows?


You could not record anything without a subscription. No Season Passes, no Wishlists, no manual recordings.

You could still do Trick Play functions, and you'd have a 30 minute buffer for pausing live TV


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## wooglin

As far as I can tell, there is no technical way Dish can tell if you have a 501/508 assuming your reciever is not plugged to the phone line. Since the 510 is nothing more than a 501/508 with a hard drive, I dont see how it can identify itself either, unless it is totally redesigned. Also, I have a feeling we will be able to shoehorn a 120gb drive into our 501/508 with the next software update using the sector backup/replacement method. Just a guess.


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## DarrellP

> I am an AEP subscriber and will not have to pay any fees. Are there any others out there who hate the concept of a monthly fee, but like the fact that they are taking care of their higher profit customers?


Bob, I disagree with you. I have been a Dish customer since Feb 97 and have always had a high priced package until this year. I downgraded to the AT50 because the price increases over the last 3 years have pushed the cost higher than I wish to pay. It's not a matter of not being able to afford it, it's just that I can't justify paying upwards of $100 just to watch TV. I would consider myself a loyal customer but am no longer a "high-end" pay through the A$$ customer. Why should I have to pay a DVR fee just because I don't want as many channels as you?

In addition to my package, I add Locals, another receiver and the warranty. So no matter what package I have, I am paying an additional $12.98 for a $24 package, that's 50% of my programming fee. Stick on another $10 for a DVR and my misc charges just about equal the programming costs. This is totally stupid.

If Dish institutes this fee on the 921, I am history with Dish, whether I buy one or not. I will not support Dish on this one.


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## Guest

wooglin said:


> As far as I can tell, there is not technical way Dish can tell if you have a 501/508 assuming your reciever is not plugged to the phone line. Since the 510 is nothing more than a 501/508 with a hard drive, I dont see how it can identify itself either, unless its totally redesigned.


Nothing except the serial number you have to provide when you activate the receiver.


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## wooglin

Well sounds like 501/508 users lucked out into a lifetime subscription. I think the extended warranty will be a good investment.


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## gcutler

I'm grandfathered for my 508, but what if I wanted to add a 510 to my account???
I have AT-150, and most Movie Channels but not AEP, My bill is close to $100 a month...So if I bought a new 510 I would still be charged $4.98/month PVR fee. I guess if I get rid of some programming (Locals, Supers, Foreign, Adult, drop my 3rd reciever, etc), but switch over to AEP for $74.99 I can get rid of the programming. OK Dish, I'll save $25/month to save another $4.98.


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## spanishannouncetable

wooglin said:


> Well sounds like 501/508 users lucked out into a lifetime subscription. I think the extended warranty will be a good investment.


Until your 501/508 dies, and they want to replace it with either a 510 (along with collecting the $5 monthly fee) or a fee-free 301.

Decisions, decisions :nono2:


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## Randy_B

Sears and Radio Shack reps I talked to when I was searching for our 721 knew noting about the receivers. They were trained on the 301 and that was about it. Both gave me a brochure to read. On teh opposite side, the BB and CC sales reps really pushing DirecTivo hard as did the Crutchfield rep on the phone. They were WELL versed in the tech specs of the receivers. If I hadn't known what I wanted, I would have bought.

My point is that for the most part DirecTV national sales is pushing receivers and service to the curious, to get E* you have to go and pull the reciever and investigate yourself. I am sure there are some very knowledgable RS reps out there that know the product, but I bet they are few and far between.

As for SBC, they are only handling the bundling of the bills, you can buy a 508 from them on the phone, but the sales rep won't have any info. I doubt that they would even try and sell you one unless you initiate the purchase.


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## Jacob S

gcutler said:


> Boy are they playing with fire. The software with the 5xx is fine if it is free, but paying for it is unacceptable (I would pay only $4.98 under the listing) but that would really be lame. If I am going to pay for software then I'll get another SA TiVo.
> 
> Anyone know if/when they will be pushing it on existing subs, or they won't but if you add a 510 in the future and they now have you??? I rarely get close to my 60 hours on the 508, so I'm in no rush to upgrade. And I can always add 120MB to my SA TiVo in a blink of an eye if I'm desperate for hard drive space


* Does the Tivo have as many hours of recording time as the Dish PVR/DVR's ? *


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## rtt2

This is what Charlie said about DirecTV & Tivo at the Q1 2003 EchoStar Communications Corp. Earnings Conference Call

"We're diverging a little bit from who the customers are that we go after. But we've always expected it's going to be extremely competitive, both within satellite and cable and perhaps someday through fiber and phone companies, so the key to that is, you have to build an organization that's a low-cost producer.

So, again, my analogy is always the airlines get in price wars all the time, but Southwest Airlines seems to do pretty well through thick and thin because they've built a -- they had the discipline, they've built a structure, an infrastructure, that's a low-cost infrastructure and that's repeatable.

And that's what we've tried to do at EchoStar. It's not going to be easy to come in to the cable industry or even within Hughes (ph) and suddenly put that into a low-cost structure that would anywhere get down to where -- to where we are.

**I'll give you a simple example. When it comes to PVR, TIVO disclosed this week that Direct TV pays them $3 a month. Well, that's -- you get a million customers, that's $36 million that goes out of the bottom line. EchoStar doesn't pay TIVO for PVR infrastructure. **

**Rather, we invented that ourselves. So that's $3 a month that we save our customers going forward. So that's an infrastructure that's -- that's -- that's difficult to change, in a short period of time, for them. We own our own call centers and have our own employees there. If that structure were to change, that's not something you can snap your fingers overnight and do. That will probably take years and years. **

And your current provider is not going to give you very good service if he knows you're throwing him overboard. So those are things that, you know, if you build uplink centers in Cheyenne, Wyoming you're going to be a lower-cost uplink center than if you're in Los Angeles, cool California.

You're not going to pick up and move your uplink center very easily and when you do, it's going to cost you a lot of money. So I feel very good about -- about our infrastructure costs ^, and I think it's -- if the -- no matter how competitive it gets, the low-cost producer will do very well. And I think without question, we are, by a long margin, the low-cost producer in delivering digital bit, point to multi-point.

As far as capex, capex was relatively low in the first quarter. We're not changing our guidance on that. We expect to spend the amount of capex we've talked about. I think it's about 300 million."


----------



## Bob Haller

Yes and the HDs are user upgradabole....


----------



## Scott Greczkowski

*Ok I just got the following email from Echostar spokesman Marc Lumpkin*

I guess we can conder this OFFICIAL now...



> DISH Network DVR Fees
> Starting with all DVRs going forward and with the rollout of the new DishDVR 510 this summer,
> 
> Subscriber to America's Everything PAK, ($74.99/Mo) fee is DVR Fee is free.
> Subscriber to America's Top 150 ($42.99/Mo) or Latino Max ($41.99/Mo), DVR Fee is $4.98/MO
> Subscriber to America's 100 (33.99/MO) / Dish Latino DOS (31.99/Mo) fee is DVR Fee is $4.98/MO
> Subscriber to America's Top 50, Top 50 plus or Dish Latino, DVR Fee is $9.99/MO.
> 
> DVR series: DishDVR 501/508/721 are grandfathered (0.00 Fee Per Month regardless of programming). DISHPlayer customers will see no change in their current fee structure.
> 
> Marc Lumpkin
> General Manager of Corporate Communications
> EchoStar Communications Corporation and DISH Network


----------



## Jacob S

spanishannouncetable said:


> So many questions.
> 
> 3) Are they planning to upgrade the software to the point that it matches the level of service a SA TiVo provides, or do they really think they can get away with charging $10 a month (TWICE what Directv DVR service costs) for the single-tuner no-frills package they offer now ?


* Why not get Tivo if Dish's software is not up to par with the Tivo (DirecTivo) service? This would really make me wonder what the advantages of Dish really would be if Dish would not make any improvements in their software. Now Dish does not have much of an excuse not to include Name Based Recordings in their software if their hardware can support this in which I do not see why they cannot. Do you think this fee is worth it if they do add Name Based Recordings to all of their PVR receivers with a monthly fee? Before people said it would be worth it. *


----------



## Darkman

hehe - in "considered official" - i still do not see a mention about 522s and 921s.... 

hmmmm

Any "considered offical" word on those yet?


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## Jacob S

boba said:


> Even if you pay full price for the DVR 510 the monthly fee will apply was the answer Jim DeFranco gave to a dealers question. The PVR 921 was not listed as a grandfathered unit so it looks like they plan on hooking the customer on that unit also. 501,508 & 721 owners will be grandfathered at zero monthly fees.


* Are those that own the PVR/DVR receivers as of 9/1/2003 have to be activated by that time to get the free PVR deal and keep their account in good standing or lose the free PVR grandfathering?

If you deactivate those receivers and reactivate them again will you still get the free PVR/DVR features? What if you sold them to someone else, would they get the PVR/DVR features for free? (transferrable?) *


----------



## spanishannouncetable

So does this mean that any 501/508/721 will never have a fee, or does the "grandfathered" status apply only to units currently active on subscribers accounts ? 

If they will never have a fee attached to them, I expect they will be in high demand very soon, and the hacker community will begin making a serious effort to upgrade the drives more easily.


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## Big Bob

Well, they lost one customer with this one. 

I have been waiting to give my parents a 522 as a gift (they would have to pay the programing costs) Don't think I am going to do it now. 

So how many new customers will they have to get to pay the fee to make up for the fee and programing fee that they aren't going to get?

Bad move E*, bad move


----------



## dinkster

Sad to hear of the official announcement by Dish. Really sad.

They just lost one (formerly) very satisfied, very loyal, and very supportive customer.

The tragic part of all of this for Dish, is that the many people that each of us provide advise and guidance to, will now be receiving that advise and recommendations to the competition. In my case, I have provided recommendations to well over 150 people to go with Dish, and almost all now have Dish subscriptions. I have never asked for ClubDish benefits or any other consideration. It was my honest opinion.

Just today, I have had 12 people stop by my office and ask me what's going on with HD / Dish / Etc.

I really don't like the taste of eating my words.


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## Big Bob

other question. 

Any word on a lifetime subscription?


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## Bob Haller

Ahh they are a sorry bunch. pure greed. As I said before the 510s larger HD is driven by the shortage of small drives, this is JUST A EXCUSE TO GOUGE THE SUBS.

I am fed up, direct here I come.

I wonder how E will feel about the internet suggesting people buy D?

That will in some way hurt their new sub numbers.

They are playing with fire.


----------



## Jacob S

rtt2 said:


> One of the biggest reasons I went with E* was because of the free DVRs and now I learn of this.
> I am sad to see E* take this direction because I was planning on purchasing some of their new hardware but it seems like a poor place to invest in equipment now.
> 
> I just don't it does't Dish realize the vast superiority between them & TIVO? I am willing to put up with the difference if the service was free but paying for it is crazy. I also cannot justify all these new increases on my bill; the new satellite tax in Connecticut & and a DVR charge and any possible future programming increase if the ever happens to be one. Connecticut will now be charging a double tax one on programming (6%) and one on satellite (5%). Why is Dish starting to feel like cable all over again?


* I agree with you there. The advantages I have seen Dish over DirecTv are becoming fewer and fewer. I am now wondering what the advantage is other than getting the SuperStations, lower basic programming package, and not having to have a basic package to order movie and other packages/channels.

This WILL cause a lot of existing customers not to upgrade their existing PVR receivers on their accounts. Maybe this is what Dish wants if they do have more money in the PVR receivers than what they charge for them.

It does not look good for some subscribers with these extra fees. $5-$10 here for PVR fees, extra taxes there on the satellite programming, thats gonna hurt!

*


----------



## Jacob S

gcutler said:


> If they backstepped and said the DVR fee was only for those who recieved FREE hardware in that offering then I think most of us would quite down. But if I pay $200-$300 for a new 510, and have to pay PVR fee, there is nothing they can say to calm me down.


* I think these DVR receivers should be cheaper if they are going to charge a monthly fee for the DVR features.

If they still make them the same price or more then why did they not charge for the DVR features in the first place? Why charge for them now and not before? Where is the justification for this charge all of a sudden?

Hard drive prices go down from time to time and they have put larger hard drives in receivers before without charging more money for the receiver and without charging for DVR. This should not be an excuse for the charge, especially if they charge for the DVR features on existing PVR/DVR receivers sold after 9/1/2003. *


----------



## Jacob S

awax said:


> Hey E* can we have named based recording now??? Maybe a wishlist or god forbid a season pass?? What a bunch of morons.


* This is why I say we all should have some type of justificatio nfor this fee if these features are not added. Also dont you think that if we do not want the additional features that we should remain getting the features we get now for free if we have to pay full price for the receivers? *


----------



## Guest

Dish subscriber since 1998.

Bought Dishplayer on first day announced.

Have been waiting patiently for superdish and 921.


Am now leaving E* for good- 


Repeat after me- 

I WILL NEVER PAY A MONTHLY PVR FEE
I WILL NEVER PAY A MONTHLY PVR FEE
I WILL NEVER PAY A MONTHLY PVR FEE


----------



## Jacob S

platinum said:


> Is the new receiver a dual tuner?


* Now wouldn't it make you mad if they decided to charge you for the additional tuner AND the DVR Service??!! Why would anyone now think that they woud not charge an additional outlet fee if they are going to all of a sudden charge a DVR fee even on the 501, 508, and 721 receivers sold after 9/1/2003? *


----------



## Jacob S

Wayne said:


> I was planning to upgrade my 508 to a 522 but not now. Also I think I will go ahead and reduce my current programming from AT150 to AT100. Might as well start cutting corners now before they find something else to charge us for!


* Maybe another thing the company is trying to do is find more advantages of ordering more programming and America's Everything Package but this sure is the wrong way to go about it. I wonder if they will raise the price on AEP to try to make up for not charging for the DVR fee on that package? Why wouldn't they if they try to squeeze this extra fee in the first place. *


----------



## Jacob S

platinum said:


> Charlie's got a set of grape fruits, charging for a single tuner with buggy software.


* So does this mean that if they mess up their software and you have problems with your DVR service as a result that you will receive credit on your bill for the time that it is messed up until they fix their problems? *


----------



## Bob Haller

The last time we saw this much negativity here was over the DP monthly fee expiring, That got delayed or cancelled. If this doesnt I am leaving and never recomending another person get E. 

I must of sold them a thousands new subs mostly by word of mouth.

Multiply me by all the upset former E users Can they afford such a move?


----------



## Jacob S

dinkster said:


> WHOA !!!!! Is this for real? In addition to purchasing my 921, rewiring my system, purchasing and installing a SuperDish, paying for additional HD programming (all of which I have resigned myself to do), I now have to pay a monthly fee for the privilege of having purchased a 921?
> 
> Even though I have America's Everything and am on CCAutoPay, this just really rubs me the wrong way. Major big time.
> 
> When is the HD-Tivo going to be introduced?


* I am sure those that have preordered the 921 are going to be VERY TICKED after now hearing about this after they had ordered their receivers. I bet the number of orders goes down after this announcement. This is if the 921 does get the DVR fee as well.

Is this going to be a charge per receiver or account? I would think it would be per account unless they say that you have to get the dual tuner receiver to get it to more than one tv in the house.*


----------



## Jacob S

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Maybe the new receivers will receive new software to make it do name based recording and wish lists, etc ,like tivo. Then and only then can Dish justify any kind of fee for their "DVR" service. The no fee was a big reason for people to buy Dish in the first place. If they go that route I see a lot of people who will just jump ship in order to get a good receiver that has 2 tuners and is solid with tivo features.


* Dish will now WILL be expected to add the name based recording and/or other features to justify this new charge. There is no excuse that I can think of not to add these features if they are going to collect all this money for the hardware and DVR services.*


----------



## bills976

I think this thread means a bit more than what is seen on the surface.

Quite honestly I wouldn't hesitate to plunk down an extra $5/month for DirecTiVo service. I honestly think it's worth much more than the current $4.99 it costs right now. I really love the service that much.

Dish subs are going nuts over this. I haven't seen anything like this since I started lurking here in March '02. This tells me that either 1) Dish subs abhor price hikes, or 2) they feel like the product they've got isn't worth $5/month. Rather than the former, it seems like it's the latter.


----------



## Jacob S

tampa8 said:


> $999 for the 921 AND $15.00 per month? (pvr fee and 2nd receiver fee)Not in this lifetime thank-you. For once I agree fully with all those angered by this marketing. I have never even thought of leaving Dish before, overall I have been satisfied, but this will certainly make me look at my options.


* Maybe Dish will now say that if you can afford the receiver, you can afford the second outlet fee as well, similar to what was said on the last Tech Chat in which they figured you can afford the dish if you can afford the receiver. Perhaps this is why the are going to charge for the DVR fee, you can afford the receiver, you can afford the DVR fee as well. As for Dish DVR receivers not being cheaper, if they pay more for the basic systems then they must be willing to pay more for the DVR receivers/systems as well. Maybe they are just pushing the envelope to see how far they can go/what the market will allow until it is no longer acceptable and that they cannot compete doing these things.*


----------



## Jacob S

Bob Haller said:


> Sadly I think E has lost its way. Sad what USED to be a friendly company has morphed into.
> 
> My issue is that they shoiuldnt ccharge for 2nd quality service.


*Bob, I agree with you. This is not the same company I started becoming a retailer for four years ago. I have seen things take a turn and now they are going the other way.*


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## Jacob S

thescrub said:


> buy our 522, save $4.99 a month on a second receiver. It'll only cost you $9.99 a month.


*Would a savings of $4.99 be enough to sway you into buying the 522 even though they would end up charging you $4.99 anyways for the DVR fee? Is this how they are making up for them not getting additional outlet fees for these dual tuners?*


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## MikeW

The numbers:

Cable TV + Locals 71 channels for $39.99 (including taxes) on 4 TVs.

Dish Network

AT100=$33.99
Locals= $5.99
3 extra receivers=$14.97
1 PVR Fee=$4.98

Total=$59.93

Dish had best stop touting the line of cable rates getting out of hand?


----------



## Jacob S

xgrep said:



> Thanks, Scott. Interesting news, indeed. I've had my eye on Comcast lately to replace both my DSL and E*, and it's pretty obvious which way news like this will influence me to go (Comcast is running a very tasty promotion in our area).


*I wonder if the cable companies will be charging this fee on their systems. I seen an article stating that 75% of their customers in the near future will have DVR/PVR/PTV receivers. I wonder if they would just raise their bills putting it in the cost of service without a choice but make it look like it is free since they are not charging extra for it just as they do with locals. Dish/Charlie would comment that they give you a choice whether to pay for PVR/DVR/PTV and locals whereas the cable company does not just as Charlie had mentioned before that they do not force you to buy locals if you do not want them.*


----------



## Mark Holtz

Just so that Dish knows...

I just checked with two DirecTV dealers, and they are quoting me $300 for a HDVR2+2 additional receivers+triple LNB, and they are quoting me a 72 hour turnaround time.


----------



## dbronstein

johnsbin said:


> I think E* has looked at what D* is charging and are interested in looking similar in fee schedules and services while still touting more HD and other extras. They know that this new FEE schedule will possibly run off the few hundred of us that don't like it and know better, but MILLIONS of users out there have NO IDEA what the difference is and will never know any different. The steady flow of new subscribers always jumps around the holidays, so they need to get the fee speed bump out and over with so that there is no noise about come December.
> 
> The herding masses don't know and probably wouldn't see any difference between D*Tivo and DishPVR/DVR. Think about how many out there have cheap TVs, AM radio in the dash, and constantly rebooting PCs the kids use because the adults have no idea how it works. It's all Tivo to them if they can even figure out how to use it.


Exactly. Dish doesn't care if everyone on this site leaves. They are concerned about their 8 million other subs and all the millions of potential subs who really won't care about the fee and don't know the differences between Dish PVRs or Tivo.

Dennis


----------



## bills976

Z'Loth said:


> Just so that Dish knows...
> 
> I just checked with two DirecTV dealers, and they are quoting me $300 for a HDVR2+2 additional receivers+triple LNB, and they are quoting me a 72 hour turnaround time.


Orbitsat has that same system minus the triple LNB dish for $149.99. Valueelectronics has it with the triple LNB $199.96. All include installation.


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## Mike D-CO5

I wish someone could settle this once and for all: is name based software under a patent and if so can't Dish pay a license fee to Tivo to use it? When Dish starts charging these fees they will have plenty of money to pay a portion to use this software. 

It looks to me that instead of Dish being a industry leader in satellite , digital video recording , hdtv etc, they are trying to emulate Directv and Cable with their additional fees. Hello , Dish made its fortune and market share being the low cost alternative to cable and Directv . Unless this money goes to improve and I mean improve the software to make Dish dvrs just as good as Tivo with all the extras , these fees are nothing more than a greedy move on their part.

I've got to say that as a loyal Dish customer since 96 or 97 , this really disappoints me. I have spent a large portion of time talking to friends , coworkers, and even strangers about Dish . I know it seems stupid but I even feel some emotional investment with this company. Everyone loves the underdog. I even went through the dishplayer fiasco and still stayed as a customer. I have had Directv since November of last year and I still perfer Dish to Directv.

Charlie lets look at some facts since last year. Dish has increased market share faster than Directv. Dish's stock is still going up even after the merger tanked. One of the ways to decrease customer churn is with a dvr ; it increases customer over all satisfaction and it vastly improves the customers ability to watch when and what they want to watch. Why oh why would you want to make the one thing that will keep customers happy and with your company to costly. Most people will stop even buying the dvr since it comes with a built in fee. This will hurt your bottom line in sales of new receivers. I have 3/508s and a 721 and would be interested in the 522 or even the 921 for hdtv someday. I would have never bought that many dvrs or pvrs if they came with an additional fee attached. 

I have said it before and I say it again, there are better ways to get people to subscribe to your AEP than to black mail them with additional fees. Try offering them no dvr fees and no additional receiver fees if you sub to AEP. This will give you the advantage over cable and Directv and will establish you as a trail blazer in the sat business. You will also get more people to sub to your highest programming which will increase your bottom lline. Hell more people would love to have additional recievers at no fee and have those receivers be dvrs. Think how many people would switch to Dish if they had this option. More market share + more receivers = More $ for Dish and more happiness for their customers. You could still offer the fees like you have setup for the others who don't subscribe to AEP, 150,100, and top 50.

Please Charlie look at this suggestion you could take all this bad buzz about fees and turn it around for you and all your current and future customers. This might really work for you and I suggest you please look at this suggestion. It's not to late to turn this around .


----------



## Jacob S

Bill R said:


> Given DISH's record of software problems and limited features on their new (and not so new) PVR/DVR models, at this point in time, they should NOT be charging anything additional for PVR/DVR service. Second, even if DISH does get their act together on the software they should NOT price the service higher than their competition (NOTHING justifies that). A price that matches their competition _could_ be justified only if the service gets as good as the competition (looking at the 721 compared to the DirecTV TiVo they are a VERY LONG way from that). Third, they are pricing the service higher than cable systems' DVR service (at least MY cable system). Given the current bundling of services by the cable companies (cable, internet, DVRs and, next year, telephone service) why would _anyone_ in an area like mine (with good cable service) choose DISH Network over cable or DirecTV (which has a DVR that works MUCH better than ANY DISH PVR/DVR)?


* Boy dont I agree with you in so many ways along with so many others on this board in which have thought the exact same things I have (I made notes while I was away from the computer to post on this thread). The reason why Dish thinks they can get away with this is due to the sales they get in PVR. They sell more PVR's than their competition so they think they will get away with it. Even if they get fewer sales they could still make more money if they are collecting a fee for the DVR services.*


----------



## Jacob S

gcutler said:


> Their pricing model may have legitimately determined that they can't keep supporting a "Free DVR/PVR". But the problem is they have shown no ability to create stable SW.


*Finally people are complaining more now about the software than they had before. I bet some are now complaining that have not complained before about the software after a fee is announced.*


----------



## Jacob S

Phil T said:


> Existing customers who want to upgrade equipment will most likely not.


*Because they probably do not want existing customers to upgrade because they say they have more in it than they sell them for plus reducing the cost less than what they usually sell it for, they will probably give existing customers a deal where you get free DVR service for being a good customer where before you would have gotten that anyways plus a better deal on the hardware.*


----------



## Jacob S

boba said:


> Actually they don't know it yet but they did send me Directv's phone number last Sunday. With the start of the NFL Sunday Ticket promotion I got rid of my sad DISH subscription. I am just waiting for my $149.00 PVR508 with no commitment to arrive before I turn off their lousy picture and software.


*I just got the two 508's not long ago and got their 'special deal' on them but having to talk on the phone for hours day after day and having to wait almost three weeks to finally get them because of all their errors and then hearing about the 522 coming out I did not know whether to wait or not. Then I heard of a 510 coming out so I thought that maybe I should just sell them instead and now I hear of a charge for the DVR service on their services?

Either that would make me want to activate te 508 receivers seeing how I am now all of a sudden going to be getting such a good deal doing that and not get charged for DVR, or say the heck with it altogether and do what I was going to do a while back in which makes much much more sense now to me and probably to many others on this board. Buy software for my computer to do it and I can buy the size hard drive I want, upgrade whenever I want, and not worry about all those bugs. I could save enough not buying these DVR receivers and get enough out of the ones I have right now to pay for several hard drive upgrades, and maybe even buy a labtop computer to take with me if I wanted to travel. I would get charged no fee each month and could get an external hard drive(s). I could even record to DVD or DVD-RW to solve problems with taking up hard drive space.

I look at it this way, Dish made some mistakes even delivering the receivers and had horrible customer service then wants to try this kind of bull. Even though I would be grandfathered I would not be for further DVR products and the new ones I was taking interest in, and with the hours wasted on the phone those receivers are mine to do whatever I want with whether I want to activate or sell to someone else even though they intended on them being activated after getting a deal on them, unless there is something I dont know about and that they require you to activate them but I was not told any such thing.*


----------



## DarrellP

I just called Dish and cancelled my CC Autopay. My account is good through Aug 11th then it's Bye-Bye Dish, grandfathered or not. Dish if you are reading this, you just lost a customer of 6 years over a stinking $10/month fee. Put that on your bottom line.  

Now, who wants to buy a 501 on August 11th? I am going to sell my PVR and buy the Panasonic DMR E80 and timeshift my locals off my 6000, I don't need Dish, I have about a bazillion DVD's to catch up on.


----------



## Darkman

Darrell - i think you should change your Signature now


----------



## spanishannouncetable

DarrellP, here's the plan -

- Pay Dish Network month-to-month until the HD DirecTiVos are announced.
- Check with Value Electronics and see what sort of new-Directv-subscriber deal you can get with a HDTiVo at that time.
- Sell your 501 at a fair price to the guy who gave you the idea  (not for me - my parents could use it)


----------



## Jacob S

Chris Freeland said:


> This is a good deal for new subs because they are getting a DVR510 and 301 for $49 down and a $49 credit on their first bill, for many it will be worth paying $0, $4.98 or $9.99 and a 2-year commitment for this deal. This will not effect current DVR 501/508 and 721 subs, you will still get your DVR service for Free. For us who want to upgrade to a new DVR, this really Sucks, unless E* offers us some heavily discounted deal, better then the one they offer now, which I suspect will eventually happen, probably also with a 2-year commitment and Credit-card auto pay. A lifetime subscription option would be nice too. If D* would add Chattanooga locals I would consider switching for a D*TIVO.


* What about those that want to purchase a lifetime DVR service? Will they offer that? Would they reduce the price of the receivers enough to make up for what the lifetime DVR service would be? Most likely NOT!!! Will they even lower the price of the DVR's at all? Perhaps they may reduce the price enough to get a lot more buyers and then the fee will make them more money if they sell enough of these DVR's in bulk. Perhaps they could even make all the receivers in the future DVR and they want to get people used to the DVR fee again before doing so even though they are still coming out with the 111 and 311.*


----------



## Jacob S

_cj9788 said: I am reading this thread and shaking my head. I cant really add more every one has really hit the nail on the head. To make sure I under stand correctly I would have to buy my new DVR before 9/1/03 to be grandfathered in??? There is no chance in Heck that the 522 will be out by then. So if all of this is true then I will resign my self to another 508 and be done with it._

* Well I am going to going out on a limb and guess that no new DVR receivers will be out before 9/01/2003 because if they do they will not be able to get the DVR fees for them. *


----------



## minnow

Two quick questions to Jacob S; Why do you feel the need to have multiple sequential posts. Can you say what you want to say in just one single post and secondly, is what you have to post of such importance that it needs to be in bold ? I've read some of your comments and I personally don't think they are of such significance that the print needs to be in bold.


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## SParker

Hello Dish Network,

The public has answered your so called idea, they don't like it. You still have time to change your minds. Do the right thing Dish! You will feel better for doing so.


----------



## Jacob S

jasonf said:


> The huge shocker for me is that this fee is per receiver you own. I have 3 DTivo's and pay $4.99 for the PVR fee for all of them. I also can pick them up for $150 each or almost free as a new customer. I find it short sighted and stupid on their part in charging for a inferior product, and yes it is inferior as I have seen them all in action.


*What? For Each receiver??? Is Dish CRAZY??? :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: I guess its byebye DishPVR, DishPTV, DishDVR, whatever the heck they want to call it. Dumb, STUPID, dont tell me its for development if they are going to be charging so much more than the competition if they are going to charge per receiver. What about those that have a Dishplayer and going to get one of these DVR receivers in the future? Even if they did not do it per receiver I am sure they would charge an extra fee for the Dishplayer and the DVR since the Dishplayer's PTV is outsourced to Microsoft.*


----------



## Jacob S

Bob Haller said:


> Womder what mu 508s and 721 will fetch on ebay?


*I would think that if they grandfather the receiver and allow the next owner to have free DVR functionality then these receivers would carry a premium above what they were going for. I would also think that more would purchase these receivers now before the fee comes.

Why would someone even buy one of those DVR receivers if they had no additional functionality or features than basic receiver without the DVR functionality? They figure if someone purchases that receiver they will purchase that functionality as well but would not force the consumer to do so.*


----------



## Chris Freeland

Jacob S said:


> * Now wouldn't it make you mad if they decided to charge you for the additional tuner AND the DVR Service??!! Why would anyone now think that they would not charge an additional outlet fee if they are going to all of a sudden charge a DVR fee even on the 501, 508, and 721 receivers sold after 9/1/2003? *


If E* did this that would be the last straw for me, I would likely switch to D* if this happens. If E* does not charge an extra fee for that 2nd tuner, which hopefully they will not, I could replace both of my current receivers with the new 522 and would pay virtually the same monthly price.


----------



## Big D

As an owner of a fair number of Echostar shares I should probably be happy that the revenue stream will be increasing, however I am certain that the DVR fee approach is not going to go over well with the mases, much less us here at dbstalk.com. PVR/DVR technology will someday displace VCRs in the average home and now is the appropriate time to start the push to effect that shift by E*, so I do not fault them in making a bold move. A bold move is called for in that cable and D* are sure making noises that they are getting ready to do the same. VCRs have a monthly fees, neither do DVD players and their acceptance is near universal. Charge monthly fees for using a product that cost a lot more than the technology it is replacing and most will stay away. Market DVRs as the next best thing to hit consumer electronics since the DVD, position it so that the public understands it will replace the VCR, price it right and MAKE IT EASY to switch and it will happen. Stumble at the gate and it will continue to be the niche product it is today.

I like most (if not all of) the facts to be in before I make up my mind on something, learned long ago it does not pay to get all fired up over something before you really know all the facts. Not all of the facts are in on this yet, but maybe enough to be able to make a call on it. Each of us has to make that call on their own, however for me what I need to know is this:

If I buy a 921 for the Charlie Chat announced pricing of $999.00, then pay $4.99 for an additional receiver, add $4.98 for the DVR fee and ~$10.00 for a HD programming package, I believe I could do much better with the Comcast 6200 series HD PVRs as it stands right now. HD, and it's required recording capability (at least for me) will just be to expensive from E*. I am already smarting from the cost of my 6000, plus 8VSB, plus 8PSK, plus legacy adapter, plus my 721 (which I really do like even if it was expensive), the DishPro LNBF/SW34 upgrade I put in, plus...well you get the idea. I have a lot of money invested in my E* equipment and do not look forward to another >$1,000 investment for a 921 that comes with monthly fees plus the addition of a SuperDish at a still undisclosed price. When I invested in DishPro and the 8PSK module, I did so based on what Charlie and company promised, that the only equipment I would need for HD from them going forward was the 8PSK, now we know different (SuperDish). When I pre-ordered my 921, I did so with the belief I would not have monthly fees, now I know different.

What will quiet me down? A package deal for existing subscribers that includes a SuperDish upgrade, a 921 and a product lifetime sans DVR fees, all for $999.00. That is what I though I was going to pay in May, that is all I want to pay now. 

'nough said...


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## DarrellP

Development? Hell, if they would hire some competent programmer's who could get it done right the first time, they wouldn't have these exhorbitant development fees.

Charlie must need a new yacht or Lear jet or something or else the entire corporate heads are smoking crack these days.

Kill the fee, Dish, I am dumping you.


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## Jacob S

I think those that are going to purchase the 921 receiver should not be charged a DVR fee. I wonder how long they planned on charging this fee anyways.

I also think if they do charge a DVR fee on the 921 that they should waive the fee when HD programming is ordered to encourage people to buy this expensive receiver.

Also how much are people going to put up with? New satellite tax in some states, new DVR fee, smart card swap headaches that will probably come as well, and then I can see the price increases to Top100 and Top150 coming next year as well, in which I am almost sure that will happen next year since the Top50 had a promise not to increase it until 2005 and Top100 and Top150 did not. I bet the Top100 will become $34.99 and Top150 will become $44.99. Add $4.99 for your DVR fee folks. That gives you a pretty round number on pricing. Then add $5.99 for locals unless you subscribe to Top50 in which is going to be $9.99 for the DVR service anways so no win there.


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## Big D

I see my post above was my 100th, making me a legend, well I really doubt that!! :nono:

I do see that Echostar has a news release out on this here:

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030730/1828001648_1.html

In the release it quotes Make Lumpkin that the AT100 package will be $9.99 a month, whereas we here from Mark in an email to Scott earlier in the thread that AT100 would be $4.98. So which is it?


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## toad57

> I wonder if the cable companies will be charging this fee on their systems. I seen an article stating that 75% of their customers in the near future will have DVR/PVR/PTV receivers.


Charlie says DVRs are complicated and will be a minority of our business (see post 102 in this thread)

No Charlie, DVRs are not more complicated than a VCR***- what VCR gives you a list of shows that have been recorded, or keeps its own tapes inside? You don't have to ensure 'a tape is ready' with a DVR!

If the CATV industry sees the DVR as a 'cash cow' then why don't you? With the right kind of advertising touting the benefits of a DVR you could attract a ton of new subscribers! Once you use a DVR you won't want to watch TV any other way. (If any of you know who Dick Orkin is you can pretty much imagine a great radio commercial of him using clunky VCR -vs- a modern DVR)

Charlie, you have said they (DVR customers) are a 'stickier' customer; well they won't be for long if you keep this up. If you insist on a PVR fee, at least make it less than what has been stated here, so maybe the existing users that are hoping to upgrade to a 522 or 921 won't just say 'screw it' and leave Echostar for DirecTV/Tivo.

***Well, a 'bug free' PVR is what I am refering to... my Dishplayer has lost more recordings in mere seconds compared to how many tapes any of my VCRs ever 'ate'; having to deal with various Dishplayer _faux pas_ is what made it _complicated_, when it works as designed it gets my 'easier to use than a VCR' label.


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## Jacob S

spanishannouncetable said:


> Until your 501/508 dies, and they want to replace it with either a 510 (along with collecting the $5 monthly fee) or a fee-free 301.
> 
> Decisions, decisions :nono2:


*They will give you a refurbished 501/508 receiver. They already tried pulling crap on me by trying to give me a refurbished 301 in place of my 721!!! Can you believe that? This is after they ship it to the wrong address!!! Then they do not ship out the 508's as promised then they ship them to the wrong address too, nothing but the runaround!!!*


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## Jeff_R

Darkman said:


> hehe - in "considered official" - i still do not see a mention about 522s and 921s....
> 
> hmmmm
> 
> Any "considered offical" word on those yet?


It says "Starting with the 510 and going forward". The 522 is basically an enhanced 510, and the 921 will be out after that.

Why does everyone keep asking if this will apply to the 921? It's not out yet, won't be out until very late this year or early next year, therefore will be out later than the 510. It is definately included in the pricing structure.

Jeff


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## Jacob S

minnow said:


> Two quick questions to Jacob S; Why do you feel the need to have multiple sequential posts. Can you say what you want to say in just one single post and secondly, is what you have to post of such importance that it needs to be in bold ? I've read some of your comments and I personally don't think they are of such significance that the print needs to be in bold.


Sorry for putting it in bold. I done that because of all the text and usually do not do this but in this case I have because of all the text to differentiate the reply from what I am replying to.

Also if I were to say all of that in one post it would be so long, whew. I wanted to split it up into subjects and get different responses and to reply to the different subjects instead of a big long post.


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## UpOnTheMountain

After 5 years of being a faithful Dish customer, I finally give up.
The TIVO product is superior, and the lure of very low switch over cost and good return on equipment is very stong.
I will now begin looking for deals to replace my DishPlayer, 501 and 721 on three sat set-up.
Dish just pushed a loyal customer who has "everything but the kitchen sink" (sink=foriegn channels) and who loves to purchase the next best receiver ... out the door.
I am AEP and cc autopay. but change is good ...
Now where is that DirecTV deals thread ... ???


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## scooper

bills976 said:


> I think this thread means a bit more than what is seen on the surface.
> 
> Quite honestly I wouldn't hesitate to plunk down an extra $5/month for DirecTiVo service. I honestly think it's worth much more than the current $4.99 it costs right now. I really love the service that much.
> 
> Dish subs are going nuts over this. I haven't seen anything like this since I started lurking here in March '02. This tells me that either 1) Dish subs abhor price hikes, or 2) they feel like the product they've got isn't worth $5/month. Rather than the former, it seems like it's the latter.


I'd say #2 pretty much hits it on the head, at least for me...


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## SParker

You mean E* is taking a major doodoo with this idea? I agree 100%!!!!



scooper said:


> I'd say #2 pretty much hits it on the head, at least for me...


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## rtt2

Just came back from Circuit City and am amazed how cheap it is to get set up for a new system. On the display unit they had a barker channel playing describing all the benefits of the DirecTivo. It is a customized production made by DirecTV touting TIVO and all the Benefits and exploring you to try it out. It seems DirecTV is pushing PVRs really hard for all new subscribers.
D* is going to have a field day poaching subscribers in the coming months. I have just a little bit more time with my commitment to E* but when that time is up I imagine there will be some good promotions going on. I am going to need at a minimum 4 set-tops.


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## dinkster

I'm not going to dump Dish today. I will continue with my 6000 and 2 dishs until the HD-Tivo is introduced. This go around, I'm going to properly audition the HD-Tivo and give this unit a really serious look. There are issues with DirectTV as well such as HD signal compression. Available HD programming will be a factor, but most likely not the principal criteria in the decision.

I will carefully compare PVR features, problems, PQ, and the cost to install and monthly costs of each service provider. They will compete for my business.

The tragic part for Dish, is that they already had my complete loyalty. 

And now they do not.


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## sampatterson

Sounds like a bad move on Dish's part. This was their one big differentiator for DVRs. No "name based" recording, but its free. If they does this with the 921 also it would really suck. I hope they change their minds on this.


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## ocnier

ODE TO A SAD MAN'S LAMENT:
Well, fellas after watching this bulliten board for a little over two years and a being a combination dish customer for 3 years and a directv customer for 4 with the ala carte sunday ticket service searching for just the right mix of equipment, service offering, price points and channel availability. I think that the hammer has finally fallen on for the death knell for straddling the fence and for one of the big two. I have been mainly loyal about dish and mainly perturbed directv, but now everything has changed. IT IS TRULY A SAD DAY FOR DISH, but before I tell you of my final outcome, please let me tell you of my dream/plan

I was waiting patiently for the 921 to come out (christmas was just around the corner). I was an nfl fiend, and fortunately thanks to paul tagliabue and his insistence on "ALA CARTE SERVICE" my plans were soon to come to fruition thanks to a gift consisting of a directv HD samsung reciever. I would indeed have "MY CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!!!!!!!!!!", but alas due to the tragedy that would befall my beloved Dish network my plans would be rent asunder. I had only dreamed that had the 921 come out as I planned that my bill would be shall say perfect. Now those plans and dreams are no more. I can no longer savor the sweet taste of finally being able to stick it to the man (directv) and thier god$#%n dvr fees. "Etu Brute Etu"............ "oh the humanity". 

And now good gentlemen I must bid you adue as I have just called dish and cancelled thier monkey asses. (Ergen take that to the bank you greedy bast%#d). I am now struck down to the directv abyss of tivo HD, consigned there by Echostar's misbegottnen gains of late. 

Fare the well my friends................


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## scooper

THere's no reason to leave this BB -


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## shilton

Sure...Dish says that there will be no fee to the users of the 501's and the 508's etc...BUT FOR HOW LONG??? I have had my 501 for 2 years now since they first rolled out and I can tell you the day I have to pay for it, it gets unplugged and in goes a new receiver without recording capabilities and my vcr gets hooked back up too. I have been a loyal customer but this gets my goat...remember all the chats where Charlie said our PVR is FREE and always will be!!! I know I heard that. Besides, what are they charging for anyway? Once you buy the equipment aside from the occasional software upgrades what expense does Dish have in them? Basically all they want to do is gouge you because they feel they can on this, but I wonder how many of the 8 million customers will contunie to pay for things like this? I already pay a $4.99 per month second receiver fee so enough is enough. I won't pay extra for PVR...will you???


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## Randy_B

Has this thread set a record yet?


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## Greg Bimson

shilton writes:


> ...remember all the chats where Charlie said our PVR is FREE and always will be!!! I know I heard that.


And hence the name change of the 510 to the *DVR*510.


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## oblio98

I have a 721 and a 6000 now. I am/was planning on getting a 921 when it comes out. However, if this turns out to be true, even though I already have "America's Everything", I would seriously consider dumping E* and going to DTV, since DTV has better sports and my locals. (CT)


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## Unthinkable

jasonf said:


> I guess I'll be going with the Sony PSX when it comes out this Winter. It will have TIVO built in and maybe the 3day free guide version, will be a DVD +R/-R and is a playstation as well.
> 
> Dish will have to compete with all of these, and I would bet the Sony PSX is going to be what finally brings PVR's into the majority of homes. Especially if its at a $299 price point.


I'd be inclined to agree with this if it actually was the next generation playstation 3, but it isn't from what I've read on it so my guess right now is that the 2nd generation X-Box from Microsoft will likely have a better shot at making PVR's more mainstream in the USA.


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## Unthinkable

jasonf said:


> This is crazy, I wonder when Matt Drudge will pick this story up
> 
> Ok lets place bets what happens with all of this -
> 
> 1. Mark from DishDepot will start selling Direct TV too.


Mark is a customer of DirecTV for what its worth despite selling lots and lots of Dish Network equipment.


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## DmitriA

Greg Bimson said:


> shilton writes:And hence the name change of the 510 to the *DVR*510.


I guess Dave Kummer (sp?) made a huge mistake on the last Tech Chat when he said that "PVRs and DVRs are basically the same thing"


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## Guest

This is simply the latest in a series of bad business decisions and miscalculations by E*. The ONLY advantage they have over DirecTivo is the lack of a monthly fee. By removing that advantage, they are now trying to put their product on the same level as DirecTivo, which by any account is a far superior product.

Maybe E* should try and release a receiver with stable, bug-free software, on time, and as advertised before trying to charge people a monthly fee to cover the costs of R&D. To ask people to pay for the quality of work coming out that joke of an R&D department is an insult.

The only thing that I or any other current or potential E* subscribers can do at this point is to just take our business elsewhere. If enough of us do that, then maybe they will get the message.


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## flht

Dish sticks it in fatter and deeper. 
Wonderful, after being lied to that the Enhanced HD adapter was how they would do HD in the future, only to find out that now it's SuperDish, now we find out they are going to charge to use hardware!

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out these 2 things:

1. They saw that consumers were dumb enough to pay for Tivo, and they want in.

2. The 921 will be re-dubbed a DVR and those that waited 2 years for this box (and are still waiting!) will be asked to pony up.

Plus, What about the OTA, will you have to be paying the DVR fee to record OTA?

First no simultaneous SD and HD output because the 921 will be a dinosaur before it ever ships, and now this.

I give up.


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## dbronstein

Big D said:


> As an owner of a fair number of Echostar shares I should probably be happy that the revenue stream will be increasing, however I am certain that the DVR fee approach is not going to go over well with the mases, much less us here at dbstalk.com.


But the masses have already accepted the fees. I don't know anyone who hasn't bought a Tivo because of the fees. The people I know who have them aren't thrilled about the fees, but they accept them as part of the cost of the technology.

Dennis


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## Darkman

i agree somewhat with dbronstein...

Good another example would be - Some people live in Getto and pay $300.00 per year in Property Taxes...
Others though - live in much nicer Area, where the Properly taxes lets say are $3000.00 per year...People might not be thrilled to pay $3000.00 to compare with others who are paying only $300.00 per year... But when it comes down to it - they do not really mind...They d rather pay more..and get away from Getto to much Nicer area...

So what i am trying to say - there are some people who do not even have PVR or DVR or 721 or 921... Nor are they planning to upgrade to any of those any time soon...

On the other hand there are others who do not mind to pay higher Price, More Fees, etc for a nicer Unit...Mind you some of those people are rewarded already (the fee is waved for them, cuz they are Getting lets say "Everything Pack")...

So that is just the way it goes...Some got it or will get it, and will pay the fee, other though will not be getting 510 etc..and will not be effected at all...

Another example is: "Driving a Ford vs. Driving a Mercedes" 
Mercedes - higher Price, higher Insurance (to register the vehicle), Higher cost of parts, etc...
But some do not mind to Pay all this...


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## Big Bob

dbronstein said:


> But the masses have already accepted the fees. I don't know anyone who hasn't bought a Tivo because of the fees. The people I know who have them aren't thrilled about the fees, but they accept them as part of the cost of the technology.
> 
> Dennis


Hello, I'm Big Bob

I didn't buy one because of the fee.

Now you know someone


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## homam

D tv here we come


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## toad57

For those that want to look at TiVo patents, here is what a quick patent lookup on 'TiVo' as the _Asignee Name_ turned up: *16 TiVo patents*

The main patent appears to be *6,233,389: Multimedia time warping system*. I'm no patent lawyer but after reading this one it seems to me anybody's PVR/DVR is a copy of this. I tried to *click on 'images' at the top of the page to see the actual filed documents*, but ran into problems with the QuickTime Viewer showing me greatly enlarged sections of pages. Found that I needed to open the page in IE browser; Netscape had problems doing this.

I have not yet had time to completely go through this particular patent (or any of the others) to see if there is some kind of iron-clad lock on selecting programs to be recorded by name, but from what I have read thus far I cannot find any.


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## rbonzer

Well, I guess I've purchased my last dish equipment. I'm not going to buy another box that isn't a DVR (be it dish, direct, or cable). When I get my HDTV set, I guess I'll have to decide what the best choice is. 

I can't believe that dish wants to charge up to $10/reciever for the features they provide. Sure, maybe they want to go to name based/subscription type features, but why do we have to pay for them before we get the features? Have they said that the 501/508/510 are going to get any new features?

I can't believe that they think they can get $10 for AT50 customers. AT100 is only $9 more, so it really ends up being only $4 more for all those extra channels. If you had TWO 501s, then you end up saving money getting AT100 over AT50. Maybe dish just wants more money per month for nothing. I guess they are hoping that no one is going to compare prices and features, because dish is going to look real bad.

I guess I'll stay a subscriber until I want a new piece of equipment. Which might be before Christmas. I can't hold out forever without HD.


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## Karl Foster

Here's how I come down on the issue (if anyone cares). I pay $9.95 per month for Ultimatetv (includes all three UTV units). While I am not thrilled about paying that every month, I am willing to do so as I feel the product is worth it. You may not, and that is your opinion. If I have to walk over to my unit and put a quarter and a nickel in it every day (less than the cost of a cup of coffee) to have it find my shows and automatically record them with little to no intervention from me, then I am happy to do so. In the two years I have had UTV receivers, I have received some very impressive software upgrades, as well as flawless performance - read no hard or soft re-boots, etc. The name-based recording feature alone comes close to justifying the monthly cost (others will slap me for saying so, but you can't miss what you've never had). 

If you feel the product is not worth the extra fee, don't buy it, but I wouldn't have my tv any other way than with a good-qualtiy PVR attached to it. 

Tivo does not own the patent on name-based recording. Hell, even the DishPlayer uses name-based recording, as does Replay and Ultimatetv, none of which are Tivo products.


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## toad57

Quess what? Echostar also has a patent on a similar device: *6,490,000 : Method and apparatus for time shifting and controlling broadcast audio and video signals*.


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## Mike D-CO5

If they have a patent for name based recordings then why in the name of God do they not use it? Or was that the plan after all? They basicaly have let us have a taste of dvr services or Tivo light and now with the fees they will give us full Tivo features. Hook um with the basic features then charge um for season passes and other more expensive features. If this is true and Charlie has been waiting till now to unleash it, he might be smarter than we thought.


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## rtt2

That new ad slick on the public portion of the retailer website says that the 301/510 promotion goes into effect on 8/24. So I guess this means that the 510s are due to be released soon. If this is the case it looks like this fee is here to stay unfortunately. :shrug:
http://retailer.echostar.com/marketing/ads/fd23.asp
I was debating buying two 508s now or just leaving E* altogether. I am so disgusted at this point D* seems to be the direction I will be going at this point. But then it hit me...could this be just a trick to just deplete the current inventory of 508s & 501s just to release the 522 without a fee? Its probably just wishful thinking but I am keeping my fingers crossed that this will work itself out.
I can't believe the visceral response so far but it is truly merited in my opinion. It seems E* did not really think this through. Did they even use focus groups on this and if they did - did they have participants that were familiar with the software they would supposedly be paying for? I can't imagine people agreeing to fees in a focus group after realizing the software is user unfriendly, bare bones, buggy, & inferior.


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## RickD2003

Ive been a E* subscriber for about 5 years now after coming over from Primestar (I know, I know.) I have patiently been awaiting the 921 to hook up to my nice, new Sony 65" HDTV. However it seems my hopes and dreams have been dashed upon the rocks of corporate greed and gluttony.

I used to pay my bill by the year, but now will have to go on month to month to see how this turns out with the 921. If there are fees, then I will be making a call to D* to sign up for service as soon as the DirecTivo HD hits the shelves.

If this all turns out to be a big hoax by E* to move units out the door, then I _MIGHT_ think about continuing as a subscriber for the following year, but my affinity with E* will be forever tarnished.

Here is hoping for the rise of common sense and the demise of corporate greed...

--Rick


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## btbrossard

Thank you dish network. You make it oh so easy to switch to another provider of Premium TV.

If you don't want my $100 a month I spend on your servive, it's OK. I'm sure someone else will. :flaiming 

See you later, DISH.

/Benjamin


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## mdrobnak

bills976 said:


> I think this thread means a bit more than what is seen on the surface.
> 
> Quite honestly I wouldn't hesitate to plunk down an extra $5/month for DirecTiVo service. I honestly think it's worth much more than the current $4.99 it costs right now. I really love the service that much.
> 
> Dish subs are going nuts over this. I haven't seen anything like this since I started lurking here in March '02. This tells me that either 1) Dish subs abhor price hikes, or 2) they feel like the product they've got isn't worth $5/month. Rather than the former, it seems like it's the latter.


You've hit the nail on the head here -- I have a 501 sitting downstairs, with a 301 on top of it...Now, you ask, why is the 301 on top of it? Oh, that would be because the 501 glitches in playback from the HD and "live" TV...Only reason it's still here is to archive the stuff to VHS tape, then ship it back to Dish, and get my monthly price lowered on DHP. And yes, the software is horrible compared to a TiVo. Some revisions were good, but then they added stupid features like slow-motion play, and around that time the software just got worse and worse.

-Matthew Drobnak


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## dfergie

Maybe Im just naive, but I have had very few problems with my 501, and the ones I have had were cured with clearing off space in my HD. And it had done everything I have asked of it.


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## hokie94

Scott Greczkowski said:


> *Ok I just got the following email from Echostar spokesman Marc Lumpkin*
> 
> I guess we can conder this OFFICIAL now...


Scott:

I really think members of this board should launch a PR campaign against Echostar. Hit them where it hurts. Send something to news organizations held by News Corp (Fox News for one) who will gladly be willing to pick it up because of their hatred for Ergen. Send something to the analysts that cover Dish stock (SG Cowen, Wachovia, Salomon Smith Barney & Bank of America). Send something to Ellen Sheng, the author of the following: http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030730/1828001648_1.htm

I figure it will sound more credible coming from someone like you than a novice like me.


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## Mike8675309

In my particular instance, I was an American Everything Pak customer for 2 years. I downgraded to Top 100 for this summer. I purchased a PVR501 when they first started their $199 promotion for them. I've been waiting for the PVR522 to arrive before purchasing another receiver. The PVR721 is just too expensive.

I've been willing to put up with the buggy PVR unit for the most part because the alternative required me to pay either a large up front fee, or a montly fee. I can hardly stand to live with the per receiver montly fee I get charged, let alone some other made up fee to use basic functionality of a hardware device I purchased.

If when the 522 comes out I will have to pay an additional fee on top of the extra receiver fee, I will actively start looking at what DirecTV can offer me. As a new subscriber, I'm sure I can get a extremely good deal. Because if I'm going to pay a fee for PVR service, it damn well better be the best PVR service available. And Dish Network's PVR service isn't even close.


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## Pete38

Hi all,

I've been a Dish Network customer for about 6 years. It was the fee structure that attracted me to Dish over the competition. It has been the lack of a monthly fee on my Dish PVR that has kept me as a customer. If Dish adds a monthly fee for using my PVR, that removes all reason for staying with Dish; the fees, the service and the hardware.

Dish folk, if you indeed read this forum, DO NOT DO THIS. If you need to raise your rates, do it another way. If you feel you must do it through a monthly PVR fee, please publicly explain your reasoning. If it's for legal reasons, and unavoidable, perhaps it may quell some of the outrage expressed in this forum thread.

Pete


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## jasonf

Problem with these new fees are this.

DVD Recorders are starting to pick up steam, and some have Hard drives in them. Pretty soon you will have a TIVO that is also a burner and has a 3day guide for free, you just can't do Season Passess etc. Sure they are expensive, but these new Pioneer Electronics boxes are very promising with a lot of cool features.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119629

RCA has a unit that is a DVD Player and a DVR, sure its no Tivo, however, it has a 3 day guide for free with no phone.
http://www.thomsonscenium.com/Produ...9DFEEACC71FA,00.html?gLevel=2&gID=0&gParent=0

http://www.thomsonscenium.com/Produ...9DFEEACC71FA,00.html?gLevel=2&gID=0&gParent=0

For those of you looking for a lot of info on the Dtivo, go here http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=7


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## jrbdmb

dbronstein said:


> But the masses have already accepted the fees. I don't know anyone who hasn't bought a Tivo because of the fees. The people I know who have them aren't thrilled about the fees, but they accept them as part of the cost of the technology.
> 
> Dennis


The great unwashed masses have *not* bought TiVo / DirecTiVo, it is still a niche product (compared to the number of TVs out there). This is due at least in part due to the monthly fees. And the new DVR fees at E* will ensure that the DVRs remain a niche product for E*.


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## jasonf

This is very tempting  However, don't know for sure if it really has Tivo build in or not, and it doesn't do Satellite I'm sure.

http://www.computerhq.com/hardware/...o-id-30879.html

ETA 3rd/4th Quarter 2003
Preorder now to ensure position for first shipment delivey!

The PSX includes the PlayStation 2's Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer chips and will allow you to play PS2 games. But this isn't just a games system. The PSX also comes with a TV tuner, DVD recording capability and a 120 gigabyte hard disk. On top of this are USB 2.0 and memory stick support and a built-in Ethernet adapter.

This product was announced as part of a financial meeting for the entire Sony group in which big shot Ken Kutaragi revealed that the PS2 has reached worldwide cumulative shipments of 52.5 million. Following an introduction to the recently announced PSP (Play Station Portable) hardware, Kutaragi introduced and demoed the PSX.

According to Sony, the PSX represents the synergy between games and electronics. The built-in PS2 hardware will be used not just for games, but for the product's recording features.

Sony clarified the nature of the product following the presentation: "The PSX is a product not from SCE (Sony Computer Entertainment), but from Sony. It's a product that was born from the synthesis of the game and electronic fields, so while you can play games on it, it will not take the position of a game console. We're making it into a new DVD/HDD (hard disk drive) recording product that includes technology from SCE."

Features: 
PS One / PS2 Support 
Act as DVD/DVD-RW player, DVD Recorder, Digital Video Recorder (DVR) 
120GB built-in Hard Drive 
TV tuner with TIVO functions 
Broadband Ethernet Connectivity 
USB 2.0 and Memory Stick compatibility


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## Scott Greczkowski

Just to be safe, I asked Jim Defranco if this new fee would also apply to new receivers besides the 510 such as the 522 and 922.

This was his reply...


> Correct, Future DVR models would fall into the fee structure.


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## dtcarson

jrbdmb said:


> The great unwashed masses have *not* bought TiVo / DirecTiVo, it is still a niche product (compared to the number of TVs out there). This is due at least in part due to the monthly fees. And the new DVR fees at E* will ensure that the DVRs remain a niche product for E*.


I would tend to agree, in general. I think most of the people who have any PVR/Tivo unit, are going to be younger and/or more tech-oriented. Also, they are probably more used to paying ongoing monthly/periodic fees [internet, schooling, cell, pager, etc.] I think the 'average' consumer still has cable and relies on a VCR; this demographic is slowly segueing into DVD [I think I read that DVD rentals beat VHS rentals for the first time a month or so ago.] 
Your average, non-tech-savvy consumer is going to think of a PVR as a 'fancy VCR,' and when they see the monthly fee, they'll think 'But with a VCR, I buy it and that's it.' Yes, a PVR, even the 501/508, is vastly different from and better than a VCR, but it's one of those things that is hard to convince someone of until they use it. Much like the name-based recording argument ; ).
Cable, including digital cable and their 'dvr's', is getting much more competitive with the features, channels, extras, and is constantly being advertised [at least in my market.] And again, the Joe Sixpack consumer tends to be 'used' to having cable, simply because the cable infrastructure is already there in most homes, and people prefer inertia to change. I'm tech-oriented and and try to keep up with everything, yet I was in my own home/s for 6 years before we got satellite. And still, there are some ongoing percieved negatives to satellite that have to be overcome before the satellite industry is really secure and a larger part of the market [for instance, the multiple receiver fee--I tried to get my inlaws to go for satellite, talking about the channels, reception, and PVR--but they have at least 3 tv's, and where they can just run a split off the cable, they would need the multiple recievers along with that additional fee. Also the local channels--I know there are probably legal reasons for it, since the cable companies had more clout with Congress than sat, but still, just saying to someone 'It's five bucks more if you want your local networks" really gets a raised eyebrow sometimes.]

I support D* and E*'s right to run a company and try to make money, and it does cost money to create new recievers, software, buy new channels, keep satellites up in the sky, etc., but like someone earlier said, this fee currently looks like a fee just because they can. If there is added benefit to it, or if there's a reason for it, then the customer should be informed of that. They certainly don't *have* to do that, but also, we don't *have* to stay with Dish and pay the fee--there comes a time when a company should still treat its customers fairly, while still making money. To me, at this point, it seems like a fee for fee's sake, 'just because.' I look at my current bill, and by the time you add the DHP fees [which I'm getting the 'warranty' with, and that was my decision], locals fees, extra receiver fee, not to mention about seven levels of taxes [which, granted, Dish can't do much about, directly], it starts adding up to real money and not becoming much of a deal. I'll start asking myself, What am I getting for my money, and can I get the same, or more, somewhere else, for the same or less? If the answer to that question is Yes, as it will be when this fee goes live, then *See ya*. Even though my PVR units will be grandfathered, this might be an opportune occasion to bail just on general principles, to say, Hey, Charlie, there are some things that aren't right--as we percieve them. You have the right to do what you want as a company, but also we have the right to do what we want as a customer.


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## DenR

Maybe one option to justify the fee would be to develop name based recording. If dish were to announce that they will initiate a development project for, or license name this feature, I think people wouldn't be so upset. Of course, I don't know how long it would take to develop such a feature.


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## scooper

Unless that "name based recording" is put into production between now and when they implement the fee - don't count on it.


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## dbronstein

jrbdmb said:


> The great unwashed masses have *not* bought TiVo / DirecTiVo, it is still a niche product (compared to the number of TVs out there). This is due at least in part due to the monthly fees. And the new DVR fees at E* will ensure that the DVRs remain a niche product for E*.


And I maintain it is not because of the fees, it is because Tivo, Replay, Dish, etc. have not done a very good job marketing them. The "masses" simply have very little awareness of PVRs and how powerful they really are. The only reason I bought my Replay unit a few years ago was because I couldn't find a VCR with an IR blaster. It took less than a week for me to be totally hooked. But any time I try to explain PVRs to people who have never used them, they just don't get it. You have to have one to fully understand how great they are.

Dennis


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## Darkman

Scott Greczkowski said:


> Just to be safe, I asked Jim Defranco if this new fee would also apply to new receivers besides the 510 such as the 522 and 922.
> 
> This was his reply...


921 you mean 

But - ya... - I think so too...

Cuz i was watching some more of this chat yesturday, 
and Jim said - that besides 510, the fee structure will apply to new, future receivers...

and 522 or 921 are not even out though - so...
(Iol - even though they seem like grandfathered to us also - cuz some of us have been waiting for them and talking about them for ages already)


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## Chris Freeland

Not that I want to pay a DVR fee, however if you are comparing a E*DVR with a VCR, even the E*DVR's can do things that a common VCR can not do and sure with the purchase of a VCR their is no service fee, however you do need to feed it blank tapes to record on and have to spend money on those tapes, so maby a $4.98 DVR fee is not so bad.

Four things E* needs to do to make this DVR Fee a more acceptable deal:
1. Make this $4.98 or $9.99 fee apply per account and not per receiver, if E* is going to copy D* on their DVR fee structure they need to copy this aspect too. This is the dumbest part of the E* DVR fee structure.
2. Lower hardware prices to current subs to upgrade, with this fee the new DVR510 should be sold to current subs for no more then $99 and an additional one-year commitment. The soon coming DVR522 should be no more then the current $199 price of the DVR508 for current subs who want to upgrade and are willing to do the one-year commitment. Perhaps better deals for current subs willing to do a 2-year commitment.
3. Upgrade software to be more comparable with TIVO features, including name base programing if this does not violate copyright laws.
4. Offer a Life-time DVR sub option for perhaps $99 or perhaps Free with a one or two year commitment to AEP


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## Bob Haller

Well when a company screws me they never get another dime of my money. Sprint, TCI, and if this isnt reversed now Dish.

Wether or not I go with stand alone PVRs or more than likely Direct I will drop E service permanetely.

I have been a sub for about 7 years.

E leading the way to gouge the customer!


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## Jacob S

I think most on the board would not mind paying the $4.99 fee if there was some justification for this fee by adding such features as name-based recording and making the software AND HARDWARE bug free.

The Pioneer and PSX is exactly what I have been waiting for, backup to DVD-RW from the hard drive at fast speeds to save hard drive space. This is GREAT!!! This is the wave of the future for PTV/PVR/DVR in that people can store their videos to play on other dvd players and save hard drive space all in one and you can reuse those DVD-RW's as well. You can leave it in the unit for the sole purpose of doing that and it would record quite a bit on it too. They could even make a DVD changer in which would hold 3+ DVD's or have them double sided so you could keep them in there to use to save hard drive space or to keep. One could use the DVD-RW's to record to for playback and the hard drive for the pause buffer. You could even play your DVD's in the unit, so it would solve many problems, the solution in one machine. 

I suppose one could do this now by getting a DVD burner and a PVR software on a computer for much cheaper than what that unit by Panasonic would cost. If PSX would be cheaper and allow you to play Playstation games then that would be a plus for that unit.

This may be what I do, get a DVD burner and PVR through the computer, would probably get enough from all the Dish PVR hardware I have now to buy what I need for this new setup or at least a lot of it. I am surprised that more would not take this choice.


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## Frapp

I believe that sometime ago when I was an active dealer, Charlie remarked on a chat that their would eventually be a charge for DVR,s. recording service.

I think Dish has maybe delivered the message the wrong format, but it would appear that they are offering you a way for your DVR service to remain free of charge ( or at a reduced rate ) if you wish, so it sounds somewhat reasonable to me.

The *BIG* problem here is that everyone, especially internet type buyers, want everything free, free, free and that is slowly coming to an end these days :shrug:


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## psycaz

Scott,
Any word if the existing pvr's need to be activiated before the deadline to be exempt, or will the models numbers always be exempt, regardless when activated.

Also, anyone think this maybe a way to help clear inventory of the 501/508's they have to make room for the 510?????????

I currently have the AEP, but will downgrade to the AT150. So much for that 522 I wanted...
DirectTV looks better and better to me...


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## Bob Haller

Yep I will defect to D tivo too do they offer a 522 like 2 output receiver PVR box?

E should look at this. By penalizing people that upgrade, by adding the PVR fee, they are more likely creating churn for folks to go to a service thats PVR fee free.

You NEVER want to encourage custoimers to leave.........


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## Bob Haller

When the next chuck chat? What do you say we ALL clog the phone lines with How do I set up CC autopay then zing charlie and company with our REAL feelings?

It might get his attention, I doubt he will be made aware of the furor this has caused.

Who knows this chat might be the FIRST to see time delay used to zap some callers.

I am game how about the rest of you? Anyone successful gets a prize?


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## TNGTony

Frapp said:


> The *BIG* problem here is that everyone, especially internet type buyers, want everything free, free, free and that is slowly coming to an end these days :shrug:


There is a difference in complaining about being charged for something and complaining about being charged for something ONLY because the company can get away with it.

This is what really pisses me off about this. I've remaind silent on the subject until now because I was trying to see if there was any justification for the charge. There is none. The only reason, like ATM usage fees, is "because we can." Any reduction in up front cost for the receiver is subterfuge.

The bean counters at Dish are slobbering all over themselves about this fee and probably telling anyone who will listen just how much money they are going to clear by having this fee. what they probably aren't counting is how this will affect churn. Not just by people like me and Bob Haller who have been subscribers for 7 years or more, but by customers who buy receivers today.

The one thing that Dish has had over the competing DVR market is that the price of the funcionality has been free. And as has been discussed before, once you have used a DVR, you will never go back. It is NOT a fancy VCR. If the is no DVR fee on one service and EVERYONE else is charging for their service, you will keep more customers from defecting. You will attract customers from your competition! It's called a LOSS LEADER!

Well...They seem to have forgotten this little tid-bit of information at business school.

They have managed to make sure that when I move or need a new system I will look long and hard at the competition...including cable which now has a DVR option. Up until this information broke, I would not have thought of doing this. So that's one $120 a month customer down the tubes over a fee that, if I kept the level of service, would not have affected me. Any time a company has a "because we can" service fee, that company loses all my loyalty.

See ya
Tony


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## Scott Greczkowski

Well said Tony!

I consider DVR's to be like gallon of Milk, sooner or later it will expire.

The Hard Drive in a DVR is a product that will die due to wear and tear after awhile, and at that time what choices do you have? If you buy a new DVR chances are you will be paying a monthly DVR fee. 

You can get the Dish Equipment protection policy, but I would not be surprised if a consumable item like a Hard Drive will be covered in the future.

To make matters worse you can't fix your own Dish PVR, you can't just pop the hood and pop in a new Hard drive.

I feel we will all be paying DVR fees in the future no matter if we like it or not.


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## Jacob S

I think this is where most of the posts on this site is going now. This thread is the site, lol. Does the software limit how many pages and posts you can make on a topic?


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## Neil Derryberry

no.... post away.


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## Jacob S

If they are going to charge $4.99 a month and full price for the receiver then perhaps they should include the extended warranty on those receivers they are going to charge the $4.99 for having some justification in their charge. We should have a reason why they could charge nothing before and now they cant and where the money is going to. 

I also think that they should give a special deal to make up for the fee. That way you save enough on the hardware to make up for the fee each month and have more for the next DVR that comes out in the future.

To charge $4.99 PER DVR, full price for the receiver, not allow an upgrade of the hard drive, on a buggy receiver with buggy software is just outlandish. Has Dish now become the most expensive DVR that makes the lease sense to purchase?


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## RyMcQ

dbronstein said:


> But the masses have already accepted the fees. I don't know anyone who hasn't bought a Tivo because of the fees. The people I know who have them aren't thrilled about the fees, but they accept them as part of the cost of the technology.


Maybe a more accurate statement (at least with me) is: "I don't know anyone who has gotten rid of their TiVo because of the fees." It seems like the only people who complain about the fees are people who have never owned (i.e., used in their home for more than a few days) a TiVo. Personally, I would gladly pay $10 a month for my DirecTiVo service.

The ironic thing to me is that people will spend $80/month on programming, and then squander it with a crappy but free DVR. I had to endure the Dish 501 for a month at my in-laws while we were between houses, and I found it intolerable after having used DirecTiVo for 2 years.


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## DarrellP

I just sent an email to ceo, feedback & tech at echostar to let them know I will drop my account with them if they institute this fee. I have wanted the 921 since it was first announced but now they can take it and stick it where the sun don't shine.

So let's see, they will lose $999 on the sale of the machine plus my $41/month + the HD Package for the rest of my life vs them getting an extra $10/month. Smart move Dish.


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## Jacob S

Its not just about the fees itself, its about charging for an inferior service that does not offer the functionality that the Tivo does, and that more was spent on the hardware so that the monthly DVR fee would not have to be paid. Its kind of like buying the lifetime PVR/DVR functionality with the purchase of the receiver.

I would not be surprised to see on channel 100 in the future the option to purchase the DVR feature just as you do programming.


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## Mike D-CO5

Well I guess in the end it will be up to the individual to decide if his bill will be lower by subscribing to AEP vs any other package with the dvr fees attached and the extra receiver fees attached. It will probably be cheaper to just go ahead and sub to AEP , which is what Dish is trying to do in the first place. 

They want their average customer monthly sub price to go up from say $59 a month to around $75 a month. I sub to AEP with Locals for aound $79 a month and I think it is the best value for the money. Most people will probably do this in the end if they stay with Dish. Wouldn't you rather have more programming for your money vs more fees for the same service on all your receivers?

I hope that Dish will give more tivo like features with the fee to justify the fee so it will be more palatable to the public. Otherwise the bad will that is being created by this excessive fee on EACH receiver is not going to create market share for Dish now or in the future. No one likes a greedy sat provider.

Remember how everyone thought the merger would create higher prices for all sat customers. The same fears about Rupert buying Directv are being brought up now. It looks like Charlie was going to increase the prices with or without the merger. With the economy in shambles and more than 2 million jobs lost in the last 3 years does Charlie really think that this is the right time for and increase? He already went up on the cost of the programming this year and now less than 5 months later he has created an additional fee that didn't exist before. And Charlie is fighting satellite taxes in other states so he can create a real DVR TAX ON EACH RECEIVER ON THE SAME ACCOUNT.

Charlie I am afraid that this time you have really over estimated the ability for the customers to pay out the ass at a time when people are lucky to have a job at all. The first thing that will go in a person's budget when times are bad is luxuries. Additional dvrs on the same account with a FEE are luxuries that will be dropped to save money. 

This is really helping Directv with new customer addons . Just think better receivers with Tivo and ONE FEE for the whole house no matter how many in the house. I think that Dish is going to price themselves right out of the market .

Dish the alternative to Cable? Sounds more and more like Cable with fees and increases.


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## Tony S

I have been a Dish subscriber almost since the beginning (1996 or 1997). Until now, I have been relatively content, but this news has gotten me VERY upset.

I am in the process of buying a new plasma TV and have been looking forward to getting the new 921 to go along with it. As many others have said, having no monthly fees was a big plus. Now that Dish no longer has this advantage, I will definitely be looking elsewhere (DTV or maybe even cable).

I have had a 501 receiver for quite a while now, and even though I really like it a lot, there is NO WAY that I would pay a monthly fee for the privilege of being able to use it. Personally, I would rather buy a hard disk based recorder/DVD burner (or use my computer) than have to pay a monthly fee to use something that I already own.

I think that Dish has made a really stupid decision. They will be driving away people like me who were their best customers, and who also were the ones who would recommend Dish to friends. I can no longer in good conscience recommend Dish to anyone! :down:


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## Big Bob

Do I have this right?

the 510 is the same as a 508 only with a larger hard drive?

the list price for a 510 is the same (or very close to) that of the 508?

If I plan on using this unit for 3 years (ha, reality in my house is more like 8-10), 
I will have to pay $10 a month because I have AT50. Over 3 years that will be $360.

There is nothing different between the two units except the hard drive, so in reality, E* just increased the price of a 508 by $360!

A $360 price increase. I just don't get it.


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## angiodan

Man, 300 posts and 9500 views in 48 hours! This has got to be the hottest topic to hit DBS since its inception.


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## Scott Greczkowski

Big Bob said:


> Do I have this right?
> 
> the 510 is the same as a 508 only with a larger hard drive?
> 
> the list price for a 510 is the same (or very close to) that of the 508?


Yes this is correct.

The price also seems high too, infact as I look around a 120 MB hard drive is actually cheeper then a 80 gig drive!

So where did they actually subsidize this receiver? It should cost only $99 or less for it. Hell you can get DirecTivos for that price or lower!


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## dinkster

I have been checking out Direct TV, and I have not found much information on the forthcoming HD-Tivo.

I have had a serious look at the programming packages, and they are generally comparable with Total Choice Platinum around $11/month higher than AEP (to which I currently subscribe). 

At this juncture, I haven't had the opportunity to watch D*, but I will to see if there is any noticeable difference in PQ between the 2 on SD and HD channels.

I will also assume that the HD programming packages from each will cost about the same, although at the moment, D* has more HD programming available that I am interested in.

Where I have been very surprised is with the Cost To Install the hardware. 

I can only use the Tivo2 and 721 as comparison references at this point, but my CTI for D* is ~$100 and my CTI for E* is ~$500. Granted, the HD is twice as large on the E*, but the HD can be upgraded for a reasonably small cost. And this does not include any costs associated with SuperDish!

PVR fees are waived with the top tier programming package for each.

I will also assume that the HD-Tivo product will have a superior user interface (name based recording) and that the 921 will have the same troubled gestation period after release that the 721 experienced.

From where I sit, D* is starting to look like a very attractive option.

Dish, if you're listening, you had a loyal customer. But I'm really looking around and I'm afraid that you're not looking too good at the moment.

What surprises me the most about this Fee, is just how many very loyal Dish top-tier subscribers, myself included, are now seriously questioning their commitment to Dish on the basis of a non-public announcement. 

In a sense, I should thank Charlie/Jim for providing much needed motivation to this subscriber to give a serious look at the competition.


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## johnsbin

Here are some thoughts I am now entertaining on this whole thread:

1) PVRs/DVRs are a niche market item for Dish. This means there are probably not enough of them out the door to be profitable to Dish just in initial purchase. 

2) These niche devices have MOVING PARTS (hd and fan) that fail and require much more service from Dish. this means Dish is losing money having to service these devices. more often.

3) These niche devices have an OS and a complex set of functions requiring many more hours of programming by different programmers. Dish is spending more money paying for that.

4) # 2 and 3 above also require more customer support to help with these failing, complicated, niche devices and that support must be a lot smarter. Dish is paying for that too.

Summary: The highest profits are achieved by moving $10.00 hard-coded receivers with no moving parts and limited functionality. They rarely fail and require simple customer support personnel.

the lowest profits and even operating losses are realized supporting a minority population of complex, soft-coded devices that fail regularly, require OS updates and UI programming, and which require intelligent customer support personnel.

Result: The DVR fee PER MACHINE is to pay for the loss realized in supplying and supporting these niche devices.


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## Big Bob

johnsbin said:


> Here are some thoughts I am now entertaining on this whole thread:
> 
> Summary: The highest profits are achieved by moving $10.00 hard-coded receivers with no moving parts and limited functionality. They rarely fail and require simple customer support personnel.
> 
> the lowest profits and even operating losses are realized supporting a minority population of complex, soft-coded devices that fail regularly, require OS updates and UI programming, and which require intelligent customer support personnel.
> 
> Result: The DVR fee PER MACHINE is to pay for the loss realized in supplying and supporting these niche devices.


Then lower the initial price and make the total cost of ownership comparable to the competition.

By not lowering the sticker price, E* has just announced the largest price increase that they have ever had.


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## Bob Haller

YES BUT PVR subs tend to e the BEST subs they ever get. Sticky they dont churn like the ones with nothing invested.


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## bonscott87

Wow, crazy news. I've been a DirecTV sub for over 7 years so I just wanted to say that I've never had Dish service.

I think one thing too many people are overlooking here is this:
I think many loyal Dish customers would be more then willing to pay a monthly fee for DVR service. The problem currently is two things:
1) DVR fee is PER BOX vs. DirecTv it's PER ACCOUNT (have as many as you want for the same $4.99)
2) Dish's DVR offerings are nowhere close to the Tivo offerings for now what will be a higher price. Less then Tivo was fine for being free, but less then Tivo is not fine for costing more.

I hope for Dish's sake they are upgrading their software to have more features that close the gap between it and Tivo. Otherwise come on over and join the DirecTivo party. Had one for over 2 years, plopped in a 120 gig hard drive myself (took all of 5 minutes) and I have 149 hours of recording.

HD-Tivo news. There isn't much except rumors you'll find on the Tivocommunity. As per typical DirecTv I'm sure there won't be many hard details until the things are manufactured already and read to go out the door. So I wouldn't expect many details until October or Novemerber at the earliest.


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## Jacob S

Well I could see a big increase with customers trying to come up with a way to put a bigger hard drive in their 501, 508, and 721's. I thought Dish would want to sell the consumer another receiver in the future to get more sales. Is that the reason why they tried to make it to where you could not swap out your hard drive? Maybe they want anyone in the future that is going to upgrade to buy the DVR with a bigger hard drive to make more money off of those wanting the latest and greatest DVR in the future with dual tuners including two tv outs and so forth.

I would find it cheaper, easier, and better to use the computer as a PVR than trying to swap hard drives in a 508 if they choose to charge for a bigger hard drive in the 510 with a monthly fee.


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## Jacob S

Me and probably about everyone else cannot see paying $4.99 PER RECEIVER for this service in which is biggest load of bull I HAVE EVER HEARD as a charge from satellite. ITS THE STUPIDIST IDEA EVER COME UP WITH BY ANY SATELLITE PROVIDER EVER!!! That is the worst thing Dish could ever do. Its obvious Dish does not want subscribers to have multiple DVR receivers (and if they subsidize they do not want to subsidize several of these per account) but want subscribers to take the dual tuner DVR instead (522).

The 522 is the only receiver that I could see feasible to have in this type of situation and I think that is what Dish wants people to do is to get this receiver and share the hard drive among other users in the house. You save enough on the additional outlet to make up for the $4.99 fee and maybe a little on the hardware. 

Dish does not want you to save money but wants to keep the money you save and does not want you to subscribe to Top50 because they think if you can afford a higher end receiver you can afford to get a higher package or pay more for your DVR service that your going to pay more one way or another in every way they can think of.

Why would they not implement an additional outlet fee for two tuner receivers if they try to sucker $4.99 out of the new DVR receivers? Scott, can you email them and ask if they plan on charging the additional outlet fee on top of their $4.99 DVR fee on the 522?


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## scooper

The ONLY way that the $4.99 fee for the 522 becomes palatable is if there is NOT a 2nd tuner fee as well. Then it will become a wash, and I can probably be talked into it (and more importantly, I could talk the wife into it). Doing both - I'm sorry - no Dish PVR for me - I'll keep recording the shows on my PC's and MAYBE upgrade my 2700 to a 301 (no timers to timers would be a big plus). Or I might be able to swing a 508 next month.


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## Frapp

angiodan said:


> Man, 300 posts and 9500 views in 48 hours! This has got to be the hottest topic to hit DBS since its inception.


That`s because once you give the product/item away, it is hard to ever charge for it, even if you make that statement early on as Ergen did :shrug:

I have seen where someone posted the old "Lost Leader" theory in business related to this topic. The problem is it`s just that , a theory, customers will let you loose on an item until you go out of business and then move on to the next store :lol:

I think a high percentage of subs will continue to use the service and pay the fee, if applicable.

So let`s see, Echostar has ( Estimate ) 3 million subs using DVR,s for instance and they start charging the fee`s. About 10% disconnect, if that many, Dish still makes a killing 

Now I know why Echostar has been so aggressive to convert as many subs as possible to DVR`s. Fee`s baby ...... Fee`s


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## DarrellP

Bob Haller said:


> YES BUT PVR subs tend to e the BEST subs they ever get. Sticky they don't churn like the ones with nothing invested.


That well may be the case, Bob, but I am one PVR owner who is jumping ship even though my unit will not be charged a fee. This is an outright despicable act on Dish's part.

To wait 1 1/2 to 2 years for vapor hardware (921) only to be told it will have a "DVR" fee attached to it is nonsense. I will be seriously looking at D* for my HD, though I know theire PQ is not as good. 

BTW, FWIW, I've been with Dish since 1997 and have put up with their crappy software updates, failed equipment and piss poor compression but I will NOT stand for this bogus fee.


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## TNGTony

Frapp,

The thing is that a loss leader has people buy things at your store they normally wouldn't. In the case of Dish, many subscribers chose them because of the free PVR. PVR customers are the LEAST likely to churn on you. Yes, dish will end up making more money. But they will lose a valuable marketing tool to attract new customers and keep existing ones. This is the part that "bean counters" do not EVER seem to look at. They aren't hard numbers so it's very hard to see a tangible result.

Dish has lost its advantage over the competition with this "because we can" fee.

See ya
Tony


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## MikeW

Frapp said:


> Now I know why Echostar has been so aggressive to convert as many subs as possible to DVR`s. Fee`s baby ...... Fee`s


I understand being upset about Dish doing this "because they can", however, current subs who do not upgrade hardware aren't affected by this decision. Fee's will not be incurred by anybody with today's equipment going forward. I've just purchased another 508 (it'll be my second) and will stay with this equipment as long as it lasts. I purchased my non-HD big screen in 2000 and don't see any need to change my setup until it gives up the ghost.


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## Randy_B

Scott in your exchanges with E* brass, ask them their intentions for replacing 50x and 721s under extended warranties? I guess especially the 50x (what will they replace a 721 with if it is gone?). If it breaks and they only have 510s on hand do they really think they can make that exchange and force a DVR fee on the user. If so, I believe we can surely expect to see that one in court! I know I would beat a beeline to my state Attorney General!


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## harsh

TNGTony said:


> Dish has lost its advantage over the competition with this "because we can" fee.


The other guys are charging a fee. The difference being that the hardware on the other side is more capable (two tuners, comprehensive software).

BEWARE!

On the standalone side of things, TiVo has been participating in some serious price hiking. They started out at $9.95 and are now $12.95 and I have reason to believe that they are contemplating going to $13.95 in the near future. At that rate, you might well imagine that DirecTV might soon contemplate a fee increase, if for no other reason than to assure their customers that they're getting the full TiVo feature set (including being charged to death).

I'd be looking for DirecTiVo to be bumped up to $9.95 per month and maybe even a charge for each unit. As we all understand, the real functionality comes from the hardware and software, not expensive enhancements to the guide information. Any charge should be considered either an attempt to cover discounted hardware pricing or, more likely, a stupid tax.


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## Bob Haller

Darrell I am jumping ship as well just as soon as D has a 2 receiver box like a 522 is out.

At this point no matter what happens I am gone.....


I guess E management has now been made painfully aware of the general hatred for their crappy software and poor realiblity of receivers. I have been thru 3 721s and at least 5 508s in just 2 years or thereabouts. Thats insane. Thats NO QC at all. 

I am very sad, my opinion of E went from world leader to trash. They have totally lost their way. The 508 to 510 is ONLY a matter of a larger cheaper hard drive.

We were locked out of HD upgrades because of the DPs problems, Those tech troubles werent HD driven. They were poor QC from day one.

Sadly that poor QC is apparent in the 508s and 721s.


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## Bob Haller

E is creating a large number of highly motivated once customers who will trash them over this for the rest of their lives.

Wonder how many sales they will loose over this>?


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## Darkman

TNGTony said:


> They have managed to make sure that when I move or need a new system I will look long and hard at the competition...including cable which now has a DVR option. Up until this information broke, I would not have thought of doing this. So that's one $120 a month customer down the tubes over a fee that, if I kept the level of service, would not have affected me. Any time a company has a "because we can" service fee, that company loses all my loyalty.
> 
> See ya
> Tony


But your Channel List Tony - LOL 

Who's gonna maintain it  
:eek2:

You can't leave Dish! :sure:


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## Mike D-CO5

Well lets see Dish starts with Dvr fees for future receivers, and hopefully they will have tivo like features( namebased recording, season passes, etc) to justify the fee. What,s next ? Charlie will charge anyone with a 501 /508, or 721 one time software upgrade price of say $99.00 to upgrade your receivers to the same namebased software that the newer receivers would have and bingo your new receiver is no longer grandfathered. You now have a 509 or 502 or 731 or what ever and you are now eligible for dvr fees monthly like the newer customers.

Slick , Charlie ! you have been watching what Tivo is doing to their customers ; offer newer better software upgrades that people want and sell it at a premium( like Tivo media. ) What's next; charge everyone for software upgrades or your receiver stays at a lower functionality forever. 

Sorry Charlie, you are not Tivo and I am not biting on this one.


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## shortiemcgee

My bet is that Dish will not have name based recording. For whatever reason, they feel that name based recording isn't a priority. 
After hearing the news I'm tempted to switch. I dropped Directv for Dish about a year ago. I can't imagine I will go back (unless News Corp makes some changes) so I may take the cable company up on some of their aggressive promotions.


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## Jacob S

More than 10% WOULD disconnect if they had a fee imposed on them, and why would someone sell a pvr receiver in which they had a huge selling point on the pvr features being free. Why would they be able to have the DVR features free before and not now? To say that everyone wants something for free is not the complete reason as a whole why people are upset in this case. People want what they pay for in this case comparable to the competition. Lets see here, they charged more for the 501, 508, and 721 because they said that it covered the cost of the hardware so that no DVR charged would have to be applied. Now what is their reason for charging full price and charging a fee?


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## Mike D-CO5

I would think that satellite platform has matured now and new customers are going to be hard to come by untill everything is in hdtv. So how do you get more revenue ? Boom!! dvr fees, and don't be suprised if Charlie does follow Tivo in charging for software upgrades. He already has followed and surpassed Directv with Dvr fees on every receiver so it's not much of a stretch for him to start charging for more and more newer fees. He has to subzidise that new hdtv package with the tv receiver and superdish for all under $1500.00.

I guess Charlie thinks if you can't beat them by charging no fees of pvrs then join them and the rest of the industry and make money on those monthly fees. It 's kind of funny though . Dish made a lot of market share by offering those no fee pvrs and even had more dvr customers then even Tivo. When he could continue this trend he is going to destroy the future of dvrs being accepted by the mass public. That is one reason why the public has not embraced dvrs like Tivo and it has remained a niche product: MONTHLY FEES !!

I said it before and I really think he could get most of his subscriber base to sub to AEP by offering no dvr fee and no additional receiver fees . This would give him a huge leg up on his competition: Cable tv and Directv. This would certainly be worth more in the long run for his bottom line if more people subed to AEP as opposed to blackmailing everyone with extra fees .

And when you think of it , if you don't want people to have more than one dvr on their account, then why is it Dish has only like 1 basic receiver in production that is not a dvr? I mean the cost to repair and replace these dvrs I'm sure is great compared to the basic receivers. But why are you practically pushing nothing but dvrs then? 

Charlie there is still time to reconsider the extra fee on EVER RECEIVER on the same account. Change that one thing and you might salvage a little bit of what is left of customer good will.


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## Jacob S

Charging this DVR fee on EVERY DVR RECEIVER IS CRAZY NUTS, its the worst decision yet. I think they view this fee like the additional outlet fee in that they can get an extra fee on every receiver.

Mike D-C05 I agree. This may be something they could very well try. If they do in fact try to charge extra for features such as name based recording, etc. on the 501, 508, 721 to make those receivers have the same software as the 510, 522, 921 then what about those that do not want those extra features on the 510, 522, 921? Would they have to pay anyways even though those that have the 501, 508, 721 doesn't? Those with the new DVR receivers will have paid full price for them (unless they got some special promo or something).

I am also awaiting to see what Rainbow has up their sleeves when come out with their service. I wonder if they will have special first customer promotions to get business ramped up. Perhaps they would see what is going on and take advantage of it getting some customers fomr Dish in the process.


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## rbonzer

I know I can't miss what I haven't had, but I'm pretty happy with my 501. I don't need any more software upgrades. Its been very stable for me, and I can even live with the glitches that I have seen. Leave the software alone! Keep it free!

On the other hand, why don't the sell the software and hardware seperately? I could stick with the current software, for free, or 'upgrade' to the name based recording version for $100.

And on another hand, isn't cable going to a new digital standard, so that third parties (tv manufacturers/dvr makers) could make digital recievers? Couldn't we just wait, and have stand-alone hardware, that recieves the digital signals? 

Its really starting to bug me that when my 501 goes bad, I'm going to have to worry whether I'll have to start paying DVR fees. And that I can't service my own machine.

What exactly will the fee go towards for the 510? Its the same as the 501/508. the software is done. What developement costs are left for that device?


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## Guest

harsh said:


> I'd be looking for DirecTiVo to be bumped up to $9.95 per month and maybe even a charge for each unit. As we all understand, the real functionality comes from the hardware and software, not expensive enhancements to the guide information. Any charge should be considered either an attempt to cover discounted hardware pricing or, more likely, a stupid tax.


And you would be wrong. DirecTV has never charged a "per unit fee" on the DirecTivo's. It is very doubtful they ever would so spread your FUD somewhere else. DirecTV already charged 9.95 for the DVR fee but dropped it to 4.95 when they brought the support in-house. Unlike Dish DirecTV is pushing the Directivo hard. Unlike the idiots at Dish, DirecTV realizes the PVR subscriber spends more money and is less likely to churn.


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## Jacob S

I also doubt they would charge that fee per receiver as well, but who would have thought Dish would be charging DVR fees and charging that per receiver?

Can you imagine Dish trying to replace the 501 and 508's that go bad with 510's and trying to shove that extra monthly fee down the customer's throats? The CSR would say "well you are getting a newer receiver wth more storage'' and they would just use the 501 and 508's that they get back to put bigger hard drives in them and call them a 510 instead of just simply repairing those and sending them back out as a 501 or 508. Just as someone said, the bigger hard drives are cheaper than the smaller ones in some if not all cases aint they?

Dish could at least give the customers an option for a future very enhanced software upgrade for name based recording among other features for either a monthly or lifetime fee.

The thing I would be worried about is if they would try to * take away some of the features that we have now on the 501/508, 721 and charge for them * such as fast forward and rewind fees, frame advance, enhanced games, etc. that they have now and only allow you to have them again if you go to the next level up on software. This is something else I am concerned about. Dish may have promised free PVR but he did not promise all of those additional features along with it that we have today. That would also be sneaky but I dont really want to give Dish any ideas.


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## dennispe

"I also doubt they would charge that fee per receiver as well, but who would have thought Dish would be charging DVR fees and charging that per receiver?"

They used to charge 9.99/month for the 501 when I signed up years ago. I cancelled after the three free months of PVR service was up.


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## Bob Haller

Idiot decisions like this give the industry a bad name and encourage hacking. Some friends contacted me today about DBS, I recommended D TIVO. At least I know it works dependably..........


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## spanishannouncetable

dennispe said:


> They used to charge 9.99/month for the 501 when I signed up years ago. I cancelled after the three free months of PVR service was up.


Dish Network has never charged for using the 501. You are thinking of the Dishplayer, which still has fees attached to it.


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## DarrellP

TIVO may be increasing fees, but they have machines that actually work and they have guides that adjust to the program. If Dish did this, I may not complain AS much. They need to come up with a different price scheme, this totally sucks.


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## Jacob S

Yes, I do think hacking of the hard drives will become more common if not go further than this as a result, although I think a simpler solution is to use the PC to do this than doing that. All one has to do is get a DVD burner and burn all that you stored real fast and upgrade your hard drive as well. You can have an external DVD burner and external hard drive if you dont want to open the PC up without a monthly fee for the price of one of these DVR receivers and be done with it. If the DVD burner and hard drive costs more than what a Dish DVR costs then one would save enough in the long run not paying an additional outlet fee and the DVR cost to make up for that and use it for OTA, cable, or any receiver and is upgradable.


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## Mike D-CO5

I would think that if customers did not want to upgrade to the name based recording features for the $99 price, kind of like Tivo did recently with the home media option, they could just not take the upgrade and stay like they are with their receiver software. Kind of like Tivo lite features vs the full Tivo features. Tivo started offering Tivo lite which is basically like Dish's software today. Basic pvr functions but no season passes or name based recording. This option is free or at a reduced price vs the full price you pay for the full Tivo functions monthly. They did this with the hopes that customers would get a taste of the dvr and want more features and would be willing to pay for it.



This would be a way for Dish to legitimately charge a fee for the advanced features and make people feel they are getting something for the fee. Of course this is all just speculation that will give Dish ideas for the future on ways to charge us something else.


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## HTguy

Wow. 12 pages & over 330 posts in this thread. 99% negative & lots of folks threatening to jump ship. What's it really all about?

The other day in a chat directed to retailers E* announced a new promotion for new customers and a change in their PVR...er, DVR policy.

What it amounts to is a move in the DirecTivo marketing direction of charging less for the hardware and collecting a fee-for-service based on programming just like DirecTV.

As a matter of fact, for new subs on this promo all the hardware and all the normal installation will be free. This could be 1 or 2 301s (like before) or a 510 or a 510 & a 301 or even 3 301s with a 2-yr agreement.

This is actually a great promotion and a great deal for new customers.

So what's the problem? As is too often the case, E* opened it's big mouth too soon.  The promo doesn't even begin until 8/24. They should have waited until after the customer chat in which they could have explained the whole DVR policy to existing customers. (Just like they previewed the PVR...oops...DVR921 so long before it could be ready, just like they previewed and released the 721 before it was stable, just like they previewed the 322, the 522, SuperDish, etc., ad nauseum...you get the idea.)

The word leaked out as it always does and all of us are in an uproar. Now let's see what all the panicking is about: they're going to keep charging more for DVRs and charge a monthly $10.00 to boot. Right? Wrong!

First of all, the cost to new customers for the hardware is zero. That's what this is all about. A way to expand the subscriber base. (Actually, a new sub in Sept. gets a free DVR + a free 301 if they want it + $149.97 in T100VP credits, too.)

So what about all of us existing subs? Well, most of us on this board already have PVRs, to use the quaint term, for which we will never pay fees. That goes for several 100K, if not over 1M, other E* subs, too. And there are plenty of 508s and 721s still available for those that want them. Almost any existing cust can get a 508 on a low cost UPG Promo.

Speaking of which, the PVR UPG Promo _as it is_ ends 8/31, after which, according to JD, "There will be changes."

The whole point of the DVR fee plan is to reduce the up-front cost. So, if some idiot runs out & buys a DVR510 on 8/24 (if he can find one) he will pay the $299 + the monthly fee unless he is an AEP sub. Yep, that's what they said.

But if he waits until after 9/1 he will probably get the opportunity to upgrade for free w/a new 12mo agreement for T100 & CCAP.

And the up & coming DVR 522 & 921 will now cost a lot less, too. And, BTW, they won't have a/o fees for the 2nd tuner like some people seem to think.

Incidentally, other than *DarrellP* how many potential 921 owners will stay on T50 & pay $9.99? Not many. Most PVR subs get at least T100 + locals + at least one premium, usually HBO. The $9.99 isn't much of a factor and it's obviously designed to move potential T50 subs up & keep the rest from downgrading. Churning to D* won't help here since they don't have a $24.99 package.

Now, I must agree that the per box vs. per acct. policy kind of sucks but it's in keeping with the reduced up-front cost marketing plan. The number of multiple PVR subs is so negligible as to be insignificant to E* today & that will keep it so. It certainly won't affect me or most of us here, either.

OK, before I get flamed for speculating about lower hardware costs & UPGs to existing subs just remember that even if all of us packed up & left E*for good it's not as stupid a move for them as some are thinking. For every one on this board that churns (and I don't really think there will be many once all the pricing changes come out) there will be hundreds of new subscribers.

Some have speculated that E* needs more $s coming in due to the increased support necessary compared to basic boxes. There could be something to this as more & more of their custs get DVRs. The fact is that their whole CS Dept & its "Tech Support" is pretty clueless about the DVRs. They're still telling people to pull the card when there's a problem & RA the box when that doesn't fix it. So they are rotating a lot (and I mean _a lot_) of units thru El Paso that just needed a Power Reset.

So I say, "Settle down, folks."

You haven't heard the whole story, things aren't as bad as you think and E* isn't as stupid as you seem to think.


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## ocnier

Oh yes they are,... hell charlie missed several golden opportunities post merger breakdown simply because he was either too cheap and/or too greedy.

In fact the only ace he truly had was that he WAS perceived as pro consumer.


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## Bob Haller

HT, what you say is all well and good but misses the mark. First off few NEW subs will want to pay a monthly PVR fee. I have friends with dishplayers who NEVER activated the service. Ultimate tv and its $10 charge died as well. What makes anyone think people will happily pay the $ PER BOX?

Now if E DID A BETTER JOB DESIGNING, BUILDING, AND TESTING their PVRs we wouldnt be seeing nearly as high support costs. Heck In just over a year I have churned thru 4 or 5 508s and three 721s. Thats a abysmal record. All traceable to a bad design and implementation. E shoiuld do a better job to begin with and save money in tech costs. 

Im addition their receivers are endlessely delayed. Then released with buggy software. They cant blame microsoft for the 508 and 721 bugs. In PVRs they are a second rate operation.

This slap in the face and pickpocket mentality is forcing me to D. 

Besides new subs will question the add on charges for a VCR like device, that will likely scare some away altogether from being any sort of a sub.

Your there will be a upgrade doesnt matter to me. Defranco hasnt mentioned one, I refuse to pay extra fdor what is a free service for a second rate device. 

What this mess did is advertise what a poor PVR device E supplies. 

I support getting PVRs in the hands of every new sub. But discount the cost to long term subs and offer a lifetime PVR offer or watch many of us leave and trash E to perspective subs forever.

Honestly non PVR receivers shoiuld be discontinued and all should get PVR. But they should be first class boxes, not the second rate ones offered today.


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## dinkster

HTguy, a highly informative post indeed. Your news is a ray of hope to the disaffected here.

If I understand your post correctly (I've read it four times to make sure), a new 921 and hopefully SuperDish with installation will be heavily discounted from the suggested retail of $999+ in return for the monthly fee that is programming tier based?

As E* has released this whirlwind of discontent amongst the faithful, it might be prudent for E* to release some tangible details about this program, even at the expense of spoiling a 'Charlie Chat'.


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## platinum

HTguy said:


> Wow. 12 pages & over 330 posts in this thread. 99% negative & lots of folks threatening to jump ship. What's it really all about?...
> 
> ...So I say, "Settle down, folks."
> 
> You haven't heard the whole story, things aren't as bad as you think and E* isn't as stupid as you seem to think.


Were you in a E* cheerleader outfit waving those pom-pom's when you wrote this... :icon_lol:


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## rbonzer

Can't they just discount the DVR and make them commit to a longer term? Wouldn't that work just as well?

I guess most Joe 6-pack people can't realize when they get $200 off if they commit for 2 years (but, by the way, there is a $10/mo charge) that they lose out. No big deal. It'll be interesting to know who the DVR people will be at dish. The dumb, and the rich (who would subscribe to AEP and don't care about a DVR instead of a real PVR).

And by the way, I do subscribe to AT50. And when the time comes, would get HD service. Probably not from dish now.


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## Soycrema

Charlie, Dishnetwork, if you're monitoring this threat I'mm telling you right now: CHARGE FOR DVR, PVR......whatever and YOU WILL LOOSE ME AS A CUSTOMER!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS JUST RIDICULOUS!!!! I HAD PLANS TO BUY THE 921 BUT TO HELL WITH THAT, LOOKS LIKE DIRECT TV IS COMING MY WAY!!


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## dbronstein

Bob Haller said:


> HT, what you say is all well and good but misses the mark. First off few NEW subs will want to pay a monthly PVR fee. I have friends with dishplayers who NEVER activated the service. Ultimate tv and its $10 charge died as well. What makes anyone think people will happily pay the $ PER BOX?


The fact that so many people willingly pay a monthly fee for SA Tivos might have something to do with it.

New subs won't have a problem with the fee. Of the people who are actually aware of PVRs at all, most of them only know of Tivo, which has a monthly fee. The people who will have a problem with the fee are the existing subs, and they're grandfathered in with their current equipment.

Dennis


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## rowdymon

This sort of makes me glad I got rid of my 501 and went with DTivo. If only DTV would get international channels, I could get rid of my 6000 and close my Dish account altogether.


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## Bob Haller

TIVO has the cost of the guide, and that must be paid for. With E thats not a additional expense,.


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## Jacob S

This new promotion for a free 510 for new subscribers is all fine and dandy and is a good deal for new subs, so that is not the problem. Why the charge now and not before? Why did the hardware cost not go down but remain the same if the DVR fee is going to be charged? Wasn't the whole idea of charging a DVR fee was to make up for the reduction in price on the hardware?

What about existing subscribers? Why do we all of a sudden have to pay the DVR charges and still be paying full price for the receivers? I think that a new subscriber would be more likely to pay this charge if they did not know what Tivo was like and that Dish knows this, if there is a promotion to get the receiver for very cheap or free.

The money for the cost of the receiver is made up on the price of the DVR fee over a period of time. Why can't the same be done for existing subscribers on the new DVR's? Figuring the difference in price of a 301 and 510 is $200 ($299-$99) it would take Dish 3 years and 4 months to make up for that difference compared to what the company normally subsidized the customer for. Dish figuring they have less churn with these customers, will more likely to be a customer for at least that long if they were a customer for 2 years (term of the contract with new subscriber), making money off of the other programming during the period of that 2 years and beyond, and penalzing the customer if he/she turns the programming off before the 2 years is up, it should not cost them anymore than it normally would.

Seeing that they could get $4.99 a month they would get $120 over a period of 2 years therefore they could reduce the hardware for that amount. Those that keep it longer than that would make Dish more money while those that did not keep it for that long would counteract those that kept it for over 2 years. Before customers would do this they will go with DirecTivo first, more than likely, but am wondering how much it does cost if you want to replace your current DirecTivo with another one compared to Dish Network.


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## platinum

to replace your current tivo is 199


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## Jacob S

It looks like Dish Network just simply wants to make more money. Period. 

They want to diversify to get an increase in revenue from each customer and have done this so far by offering in addition to what they have more programming packages, monthly program guide, Playin' Tv, adding shopping channels and business tv channels for businesses, advertising on satellite (I read about this a while back), and in the future to diversify even more by adding more international channels, more locals (profit in some markets), HD, internet, and this new DVR fee, and Video On Demand (VOD) in which they reserve part of the hard drive space for that in the future on the PVR/DVR receivers.

I wonder if they are going to use some of that extra hard drive space to advertise before you view your PVR Event. Perhaps if they do the same thing that Tivo does on their lite version they would implement advertising since the basic version would be free and the paid version not be free making more money that way as well. I am surprised that they dont have a classified section on OpenTv where they charge you a small amount to have your ad on there for a period of time and charge it on your monthly bill.

These are some of the things that they are trying to do to increase their revenue and to diversify. Their goal is to try to get more and more and more money from each person that they can to have a greater average customer revenue. I wonder what is going to be next.


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## Mike123abc

Another thing is WHO WANTS TO HAVE TO COMMIT TO 24 MONTHS AND CCAP to buy a DVR? I have been a Dish sub for more than two years, I do not want to commit to another X number of years just to add a new box to my system. I rather pay the $250 and not have the commitment. I am an AEP sub, $250 is a little over 2 months programming to me (I am about 105/month right now). Why should I have to commit to years and thousands of dollars of programming for a new box? I did it when I subbed initially and got free installation, but I still had to buy my 6000s. I already did my time, I want the flexability now.


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## DishDude1

I think this is a good deal for new customers, the only problem I see with this is existing customers. Still charging the same price + a monthly fee. Again with E*, current customers get screwed.


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## Mike123abc

Another issue not addressed is if you have more than 1 DVR and AEP, are they going to charge you the $10/month for the second PVR...

Dish could easily solve this by simply allowing people to pay full price for the DVRs and not have to commit to programming or pay a fee. Then people have a choice and it is a win/win.


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## Scott H

I just don't understand what Dish Network is thinking. I have been a very happy Dish Network customer for many years and now they spring this on me. Sure I have had my share of problems with my 501 and 508, but all in all Dish has kept me happy. Up until now I have not considered leaving Dish, but that may change. Dish announced some great new PVR's many months ago and most of us were very excited about the designs and new features. Now before these units are even out Dish says "Oh by the way there will be an additional monthly fee". I for one am tired of additional monthly fee's. The price you pay for the PVR when you purchase the unit should be all you pay for the life of the PVR. The R&D costs, software costs, manufacturing costs, etc should all be included in the cost of the PVR.

If Dish had wanted to get more money out of us then they should have raised the cost of each programming package a little to all subscribers. This would get them the additional money they want and they could still say "Dish has no monthly PVR fee". 

At one time I supported the merger of Dish and Direct. At this point I'm glad the merger failed. Had the merger suceeded we would not be able to switch to Direct. Who knows Direct may come up with some special deals to get exhisting Dish customers to make the change now that this additional fee has been announced. In my opinion this new fee is just pure greed on the part of Dish Network.


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## Mike D-CO5

You'll have to pay for any future software upgrades in order to get the best dvr functions like Tivo has. I really think Charlie will do this if he can get away with it. 

He must be trying to bank a lot of money for the future of hdtv or he is preparing a huge" golden parachute" for when he bails out of Dish in the future. The future might be here quicker if than he thinks if he keeps charging fees for every little thing. Rainbow satellite might get a huge group of potential customers who will more than willing to switch from Dish just because of this sort of thing. Rainbow might have the potential to be the first all hdtv sat provider with their new technology , which would really put the squeeze on old Charlie . Of course he might be using the fees to buy the Rainbow satellite so he can do all the hdtv channels for Dish. That's it, it is all a plan to help subsidize his great transition to hdtv for his satellite company . Lord knows that hdtv channels take a lot of bandwith which neither Dish or Directv has now. 

Of course I might be giving old Charlie to much credit for trying to think ahead about Dish's hdtv future. The real reason is that he can charge a fee and he is getting a little greedy .

I guess that Dish will have to take their commercials off where they say "Are you tired of cable rate hikes?" Soon this whole fee thing will be used against Dish to sell the Cable industry's dvrs with no fee or just a small one house fee. That is all cable needs another way to sell customers against satellite. TWC already has something on their website about satellite charging it's customers for additional receivers as a reason not to sub to satellite.

For what ever reason there is , Dish needs to clarify once and for all what why and how they are planning this for the future customer upgrades as well as new customers. The negative feeling about Dish and their decision is spreading more than on these web boards. Word of mouth is how Dish has sold a lot of new customers from dealers , and existing customers. They need to head this snafu off before it gets any worse. And remember Dish might think we are a bunch of tech geeks , but guess what? We talk to people in the work force , to our friends and families, sometimes to other customers in department stores like Best Buy , Radio Shack etc. And these people who we choose to talk, to well tell their families and friends and so on and so on and so on.

So unless Dish wants a lot more negative publicity than they got with the dishplayer, which they blamed on microsoft, they better come out with a statement or commercial announcement on their website or their help channel or hell send it as a commercial on our pvrs so we can here it straight from their mouth. Change this whole fee on every dvr receiver on your account and do some damage control before its to late.


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## Jacob S

Ok then, let me understand this correctly. Dish thinks its ok to charge $4.99 per DVR receiver when DirecTivo doesnt and Tivo Standalones do? DISH DVR IS NOT A STANDALONE PRODUCT!!! Perhaps if it did become one then that would be a different story and allow consumers to record OTA, cable, or anything that goes into that receiver.

Customers should also be able to get a choice in lifetime DVR for a reasonable price and the receivers should be discounted if they are going this route in charging for the DVR service. Dish will just about have to give these things away to get anyone to pay the DVR fee on them, especially if the hardware and software remains the same as it is today.

The whole point of subscribers of paying so much money before for these PVR receivers was so that we would not have to pay the dang DVR fee and save in the long run and now they want to charge the DVR fee anyways? Dang that is something else I tell ya, and per receiver too.

New customers will not have a problem with paying $4.99 per DVR receiver? Well I do not think new subscribers will like to pay an additional $4.99 on top of the $4.99 for the additional outlet for the second DVR. That will be a total of about $15 extra. Dish will just tell the consumers to get a 522.


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## rtt2

I'm with you Mike123abc I also think 2 years is also a little long and excessive. Committing for two years is a major leap of faith. There is no telling of future price increases down the road (or surprise fees like DVR fees) that might pop up. I am pretty sure that the XBOX in our house probably has more power than the boxes dish is selling and it costs what? >$200. There is no way I would sign a contract for two whole years just to get a set-top DVR. A lot can happen in that period of time - For example I could get transferred and my new place may not have a southern view. Then I would be screwed and E* would be the only winner.


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## Jacob S

Screw us once, shame on Dish, screw us twice, shame on us. That is whats going on. Bad hardware and software in many cases is how we were screwed the first time. We dont want the same again with an increased cost so thats why so many want to finally get rid of these darn ridden problems if they do have to pay a fee. Thats what this is all about. 

Dish, you have no right to complain about extra fees that the states want to imply on us when you are wanting to do the same. Thats just like telling your child that its not ok to steal money then taking your child's $5 afterwards in a way. Lets see here, didn't Dish try to bill people for $99 that owned a Dishplayer? Didn't Dish say that there was a ''lifetime'' PVR fee on the Dishplayers or no charge ever? Didn't Dish try to keep a lot of people's money that shut off programming early? Didn't Dish not give out rebates on systems and programming in the past? Didn't Dish get into trouble for some if not all of those actions?

Heck, Charlie might be trying to make as much money as he can now while he can before its all downhill when cable gets him with all the bandwidth they have for internet, HD, etc.

When it comes to someone doing good or someone favoring a company over another, that type of news does not spread nearly as fast and as much as people that does not favor a company, so this would be by far worse. Good news may travel from one person to five people but bad news will travel from one person to twenty people.


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## Mark Holtz

All I wanted was a bigger hard drive for my PVR. Dish intentionally made their 50x series so that you cannot swap out the hard drive. I can swap out the hard drive for my PC, but not my PVR. Why?

So, the best hope for a DVR with a bigger hard drive is to purchase one from Dish. But, I didn't want to pay a monthly fee for inferior software. The Tivo software is much better. Dish wants to charge me for "Playin' TV" with games that can easily be downloaded for free off the Internet.

It is bad enough that a portion of the bill that I pay goes to the highest priced channels that I don't even watch, and that's the $ports channels. I don't watch E$PN or my Regional $ports Network. Hell, YE$ wants $2 per subscriber in a market that already has two or three R$Ns depending on where you live.

And the 721? What the heck is going on? This was supposed to be the DVR that was going to be Dish's replacement for the DishPlayer. But, apparently, not much is happening, as if Dish wants to put this box behind them as well despite some good potential. Since it is Linux based, why don't they take a look at the OpenSource community at MythTV?


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## Foxbat

And now we all know why the 811 won't have DishWire...

Also, wasn't Echostar's penalty for the merger failing something on the order of $600M? They have to pay for that somehow. Increasing AT sub prices would increase defections to a larger degree than implementing DVR fees on new units (IMO).

That said, I think Dish should use a dollar amount as the target for "free" DVR services instead of just having AEP (wait, I have American Electric Power, I'm good!) (oh, right, America's Everything Package, grrr.) So, if I subscribe to AT100+HBO+Cinemax ($50), HD Package ($8+), Superstations ($6), Locals ($5), and Sports ($6), I'd be paying the same as the AEP. I think that should qualify.

Also, as everyone else has mentioned, Dish should do this on an account basis versus for each DVR. Granted, most households will have only one PVR/DVR, but being charged twice (additional receiver fee + DVR fee) is too much like double-dipping, which is fine for ice-cream cones, but leaves a bad taste in your mouth in this situation.


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## Bob Haller

sent this to sky this morning. I hope others will do something similiar. A bit of media attention may get them to come to their senses.

Send your mail to!!! [email protected].

You have a lot of avid readers out here. Perhaps theres a story for you here.

Dish is going to charge for new DVRs. a monthly fee per receiver.

This is fine for new subs who essentially get their box for free. But by doing this long term existing subs get screwed. We will be forced to pay full retail PLUS the fee Plus in all honesty dishes PVRs arent as stable as Directs, lack features like name based recordings, and have ongoing problems with software upgrades causing glitches.

Honestly they release half designed buggy software and have ther subscribers beta test the units.

The 721 their top of the line box was promised to provide internet access which was never made available. This box is now out of production and people are disappointed.

Perhaps you could look into this. Please see these discussions as to why were upset. Apparently this is falling on deaf ears at diish. They think everything is OK.

DBSTalk.COM / SatelliteTalk.COM - Official Dish DVR-510 Information from Dish DBSTalk.COM / SatelliteTalk.COM - DVR 510 announced and monthly fee3! DBSForums Discussion Forums: DISH Network announces DVR fees

Thanks much for your time Bob Haller

__________________


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## Lee L

HTGuy, if the 921 comes out and it is $699-$700 instead of the $999 mentioned just 2 1/2 weeks ago on the Tech Chat, then you may have a point. I still can;t beleive that they changed their mind so quickly but if they did, why not at least mention that as prt of this new strategy, the 921 will be reduced in porice as well (no need to even go into more detail than that). E* could have even adressed that issue with Scott, but instead said only that the 921 will have the fee (again, no need for details, just a simple acknowledgement that the price will be less).

As far as I can devine, E* just raised the cost of the 921 by at least $300 bucks if you think that people will keep it about 3 years or more.


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## johnsbin

Bob Haller said:


> sent this to sky this morning. I hope others will do something similiar. A bit of media attention may get them to come to their senses.....


Well Bob, looks like that backfired. The top news at SkyReport this morning has an article saying Wall Street says the plan is SMART! Dish is not going to disturb the already existing base but only charge the new subscribers to avoid the CHURN issue.

Apparently, we are the only ones who have a problem with Charlie's outstanding business acumen.

This is a new age of business - loyalty means nothing, only numbers count. So each of us will have to crunch our own numbers and do what our board of directors recommends.

:nono2:


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## ToddMeister

I've been a Dish customer since 1998. First I went through the Model 4000 Blackouts...

Then I went through the Dishplayer fiasco. At least I had free "lifetime" PTV. Loved the interface, but it was too hard to watch TV with the DP's. Too much tinkering and work arounds to keep the things going. I finally sent them to pasture on eBay.

Now I have a couple 508's. They're much better but NOT perfect. Poor guide controls <compare to DP's> and occasional glitches. But the proceeds from the eBayed DP's more than covered the new 508's. I'm fairly happy so far.

Been waiting for my locals forever. Guess what? DTV plans to add them yet this year, no plans from Dish. Getting less happy now.

And when the 508's puke and no more are available, Charlie will have his hand in my pocket again with a new model DVR. I don't think so. Now I'm unhappy. Sorry Charlie, you will lose another customer to DTV.

I don't recommend Dish to others anymore, either.

Looks like a change will be in the future...


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## jrbdmb

johnsbin said:


> This is a new age of business - loyalty means nothing, only numbers count. So each of us will have to crunch our own numbers and do what our board of directors recommends. :nono2:


I did a little exercise yesterday to compare costs of E* vs. D* for the programming I want (AT150 / TC+, all RSNs, *two* DVRs). As of today E* is $2 cheaper, and gives me the Encore channels and TMC - but doesn't have YES, and doesn't include FSW2 in the RSN package.

If the DVR fee is ever implemented on the 508s, D* then becomes $8 less expensive. Guess what - when that happens, I switch.


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## Chris Freeland

jrbdmb said:


> I did a little exercise yesterday to compare costs of E* vs. D* for the programming I want (AT150 / TC+, all RSNs, two DVRs). As of today E* is $2 cheaper, and gives me the Encore channels and TMC - but doesn't have YES, and doesn't include FSW2 in the RSN package.
> 
> If the DVR fee is ever implemented on the 508s, D* then becomes $8 less expensive. Guess what - when that happens, I switch.


Is this new math? You said that you currently pay $2 less for E* then D* for what you want, how does adding a $4.98 DVR fee add up to D* becoming $8 cheaper? MY old fashioned math indicates to me that D* would only be $2.98 cheaper. In addition to this you will not be paying a DVR Fee for your 508 ever, you will only pay this fee if you replace your 508 with the new 510 :shrug: .


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## GFloyd

johnsbin said:


> ... The top news at SkyReport this morning has an article saying Wall Street says the plan is SMART! Dish is not going to disturb the already existing base but only charge the new subscribers to avoid the CHURN issue.
> 
> :nono2:


I don't think I've ever posted here, but like may I've read this entire thread & am keenly interested.

For the here and now, I will stay with Dish. I have a 501, 508 and two 301s. I also get OTA HD & enjoy in very much. I want a DVR for my HD and had planned to buy a 921 when they became available. Now I know I will not becuase I'm not paying the same for less as it relates to the Tivo vs Dish DVR functionality. When D* offers a HD DVR, I'll cancel E* and take advantage of what I'm sure will be reduced prices on Direct Tivo boxes.

My current bill is around $75 / month. Add on the HD pkg & E* will loose my $85 / month ...

So in response to the Wall Street analyst, they are right for now. However, I suspect that in the future E* will see its high dollar HD customers move to D* ...


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## Greg Bimson

> *Originally written by johnsbin:*
> This is a new age of business - loyalty means nothing, only numbers count. So each of us will have to crunch our own numbers and do what our board of directors recommends.


The worst part of this whole matter is that many of the people here helped to promote Dish Network to potential customers. Those people are very responsible for helping the company gain critical mass in Dish Network's subscriber growth.

And now that Dish Network is at critical mass for sub growth, they are changing plans, moving towards profit growth.

It makes one feel violated when a company whose service you enjoy decides to nickel and dime, just like a cable company.


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## Chris Freeland

Thanks for a breath of fresh air, HTguy .



HTguy said:


> Wow. 12 pages & over 330 posts in this thread. 99% negative & lots of folks threatening to jump ship. What's it really all about?
> 
> The other day in a chat directed to retailers E* announced a new promotion for new customers and a change in their PVR...er, DVR policy.
> 
> What it amounts to is a move in the DirecTivo marketing direction of charging less for the hardware and collecting a fee-for-service based on programming just like DirecTV.
> 
> As a matter of fact, for new subs on this promo all the hardware and all the normal installation will be free. This could be 1 or 2 301s (like before) or a 510 or a 510 & a 301 or even 3 301s with a 2-yr agreement.
> 
> This is actually a great promotion and a great deal for new customers.
> 
> So what's the problem? As is too often the case, E* opened it's big mouth too soon.  The promo doesn't even begin until 8/24. They should have waited until after the customer chat in which they could have explained the whole DVR policy to existing customers. (Just like they previewed the PVR...oops...DVR921 so long before it could be ready, just like they previewed and released the 721 before it was stable, just like they previewed the 322, the 522, SuperDish, etc., ad nauseum...you get the idea.)
> 
> The word leaked out as it always does and all of us are in an uproar. Now let's see what all the panicking is about: they're going to keep charging more for DVRs and charge a monthly $10.00 to boot. Right? Wrong!
> 
> First of all, the cost to new customers for the hardware is zero. That's what this is all about. A way to expand the subscriber base. (Actually, a new sub in Sept. gets a free DVR + a free 301 if they want it + $149.97 in T100VP credits, too.)
> 
> So what about all of us existing subs? Well, most of us on this board already have PVRs, to use the quaint term, for which we will never pay fees. That goes for several 100K, if not over 1M, other E* subs, too. And there are plenty of 508s and 721s still available for those that want them. Almost any existing cust can get a 508 on a low cost UPG Promo.
> 
> Speaking of which, the PVR UPG Promo _as it is_ ends 8/31, after which, according to JD, "There will be changes.
> 
> The whole point of the DVR fee plan is to reduce the up-front cost. So, if some idiot runs out & buys a DVR510 on 8/24 (if he can find one) he will pay the $299 + the monthly fee unless he is an AEP sub. Yep, that's what they said.
> 
> But if he waits until after 9/1 he will probably get the opportunity to upgrade for free w/a new 12mo agreement for T100 & CCAP.
> 
> And the up & coming DVR 522 & 921 will now cost a lot less, too. And, BTW, they won't have a/o fees for the 2nd tuner like some people seem to think."


Thank you, this confirms what I have said in some of my previos posts.



HTguy said:


> Incidentally, other than *DarrellP* how many potential 921 owners will stay on T50 & pay $9.99? Not many. Most PVR subs get at least T100 + locals + at least one premium, usually HBO. The $9.99 isn't much of a factor and it's obviously designed to move potential T50 subs up & keep the rest from downgrading. Churning to D* won't help here since they don't have a $24.99 package.
> 
> Now, I must agree that the per box vs. per acct. policy kind of sucks but it's in keeping with the reduced up-front cost marketing plan. The number of multiple PVR subs is so negligible as to be insignificant to E* today & that will keep it so. It certainly won't affect me or most of us here, either.
> 
> OK, before I get flamed for speculating about lower hardware costs & UPGs to existing subs just remember that even if all of us packed up & left E*for good it's not as stupid a move for them as some are thinking. For every one on this board that churns (and I don't really think there will be many once all the pricing changes come out) there will be hundreds of new subscribers.
> 
> Some have speculated that E* needs more $s coming in due to the increased support necessary compared to basic boxes. There could be something to this as more & more of their custs get DVRs. The fact is that their whole CS Dept & its "Tech Support" is pretty clueless about the DVRs. They're still telling people to pull the card when there's a problem & RA the box when that doesn't fix it. So they are rotating a lot (and I mean _a lot_) of units thru El Paso that just needed a Power Reset.
> 
> So I say, "Settle down, folks."
> 
> You haven't heard the whole story, things aren't as bad as you think and E* isn't as stupid as you seem to think.


I agree here 100%, I too got very upset when I first read of the changes. After thinking things through, I have comed down and will probably remain a E* sub for the foreseeable future. I still do not like the per-unit DVR charge, however I am not likely to ever own more then one DVR box. If I can get a 522 at a good promo price I will be happy, I can then replace both my old 2000 and 2700/2800 receivers and simply pay the DVR fee instead of the extra receiver fee that I pay now. It would be nice if E* would offer a life-time DVR subscription option but it would not be a deal breaker for me if they do not, though it may be for some here. It would also be good if E* could improve their DVR software by adding features like name based recording and improve the stability problems that have plagued many here, which is one major reason many here are so upset by these charges.


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## ocnier

"STICKIN IT TO THE MAN!!!!....... I DON'T JUST GET MAD I GET EVEN" 

OCNIER GOES TO WAR:

I just wanted everyone to know that I went to my local best buy this morning here in the DFW metroplex (this is not a small market charlie) and had a chat with the electronics manager there. I discussed with him who I was and explained the news concerning E*'s DVR decision comin out. I brought the ad slick and the new pricing structure provided by Scott G, and I made copies. I explained to him how he could persuade present/future customers to either drop dish or remove it from their future buying consideration that this was huge selling new for D* and the achilles heel for E*. We went over a comparison of the companies and he said he would definitely fax the slick to other stores with detailed info on the cost points for service. Needless to say, the guy laughed and was surprised by E*'s decision concerning DVRs. He had himself been looking at the two for a purchase of a DVR. I TOTALLY solidified his decision. I just hope two things happen
1). This becomes more common knowledge among shoppers considering the satellite route and that the path to take is obvious now
2). I cost Charlie not a few hundred dollars, but several THOUSAND DOLLARS in lost sales (even in his vaunted new sub market). 


P.S. I just hope Charlie gets to read this, because I'm hittin em' where it hurts the most baby, in the pocket book BIATCH!!!! Get ready charlie cuz I'm bringin the pain Whoa Huh!...... lol


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## abospaum

Any thoughts as to whether D* will offer a nice promotion to new or more specifically to E* customers when they come out with HD*Tivo.

I have been a E* customer for about 5 years and the only piece of equipment that I ever bought was my 501. Everything else I got as part of promos or replacements.

If D* offers new subs, free satellites, install and a 2 room set-up free with a discount on a third receiver (HD*Tivo) then I'd go in a heartbeat.

My guess is E* will probably charge new subs only about $300 for a 921 while they try to get $999 out of their loyal customer base. This annoys me more than anything.


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## DaYooper

Chris Freeland said:


> Is this new math? You said that you currently pay $2 less for E* then D* for what you want, how does adding a $4.98 DVR fee add up to D* becoming $8 cheaper? MY old fashioned math indicates to me that D* would only be $2.98 cheaper. In addition to this you will not be paying a DVR Fee for your 508 ever, you will only pay this fee if you replace your 508 with the new 510 :shrug: .


His math is correct Chris. He has two (2) PVRs. 2 x $4.98 = $9.96 or about an $8 swing.


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## jrbdmb

Chris Freeland said:


> Is this new math? You said that you currently pay $2 less for E* then D* for what you want, how does adding a $4.98 DVR fee add up to D* becoming $8 cheaper? MY old fashioned math indicates to me that D* would only be $2.98 cheaper. In addition to this you will not be paying a DVR Fee for your 508 ever, you will only pay this fee if you replace your 508 with the new 510 :shrug: .


My post above stated *two* 508s, therefore $9.96 per month extra (I do admit to rounding up to the nearest dollar.) And as for never paying a 508 DVR fee, E* also sold "Lifetime" Dishplayer service and then tried to redefine the definition of "Lifetime" - so forgive me if I don't totally trust them on that point. :kickbutt: But like said above, it is business, they can choose to start charging for DVRs now (and perhaps the 501/508/721 sometime in the future) - and subs are then free to reevaluate their options.


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## jrbdmb

HTguy said:


> The whole point of the DVR fee plan is to reduce the up-front cost. So, if some idiot runs out & buys a DVR510 on 8/24 (if he can find one) he will pay the $299 + the monthly fee unless he is an AEP sub. Yep, that's what they said.
> 
> *But if he waits until after 9/1 he will probably get the opportunity to upgrade for free w/a new 12mo agreement for T100 & CCAP.
> 
> And the up & coming DVR 522 & 921 will now cost a lot less, too.*


Is the above just a wish on your part, or do you have some Dish inside info that this is going to happen?


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## dinkster

jrbdmb said:


> Is the above just a wish on your part, or do you have some Dish inside info that this is going to happen?


I hope that he is correct. I would love to see some confirmation of this from Dish! It sure would calm me down a bit.


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## Guest

jrbdmb said:


> Is the above just a wish on your part, or do you have some Dish inside info that this is going to happen?


Pure speculation from a Dish cheerleader.


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## mdrobnak

Ok, for all of those who have been defending the fees:

Here's the problem...

1. I'm a movies person. This means: I subscribe to AT50 (which gets me channels of which 95% of the time I don't watch), but also subscribe to 3 movie packages...So my bill is still $75 a month. 

2. I like HDTV. I love HDTV. I want to RECORD my HDTV. I have the 5000 and modulator, a MyHD card, and I just picked up a DVHS VCR. My problem is that only the 921 (as announced so far) will have firewire connections on it (aside from the 211 -- I don't have a Mits TV, nor can I afford to get one...), so if, and this is a BIG if, I were to get a 921 for $999 -- or even $699, which is still quite a bit in my opinion...I would be charged $10 because I have AT50...what about the HD package when it comes out? I would be one of the first to buy the SuperDish and get the HD package...so lets see..that would make my bill at least $85, most likely $95 (assuming $10 for the HD package)...There is NO WAY I'm spending $100 a month on freaking TV. That's insane. $75 is too much as is really, but we have Cablevision here in Yonkers, NY. Anyone that's had the pleasure of dealing with them knows, aside from Optimum Online, they're offerings are terrible.

What this means to me...

if they don't figure out some alternate pricing plan -- ie, like this:

9.99 if AT50, DISH Latino, or AT50 Plus
4.98 if AT100, DL Dos, AT150, or DL Max OR AT50 + 2 premiums
0.00 if AEP or AT150 + 1 premium AT100 + 2 premiums or AT50 + 3 premiums...

I think that's relatively fair, as it takes into account what the actual bill is, NOT just "oh, they're on the lowest programming package, lets charge them a lot"

I buy what I want to watch..I don't need 100 more channels (some of which are MUSIC -- ever heard of CDs? a radio? mp3 players? xm radio? Sirius? ...) of JUNK (to me it's junk, some people might love the other channels, but I'm speaking for myself here)

In conclusion:

DISH -- THINK about your CURRENT customers...If not... We might just leave...

btw, someone brought up Rainbow satellite...Oh look at that ... 61.5'w hmm I OWN that dish. Oh look, all HDTV programming... hmmm... just a thought....

-Matthew Drobnak
Current, but not necessarily future, customer.


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## Darkman

You people have gone mad i see....

Weeeeeeeeeee  

Like an uncontrolable Lava or something!


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## DarrellP

> Incidentally, other than DarrellP how many potential 921 owners will stay on T50 & pay $9.99?


HTGUY, you got it wrong, I will NOT stay with the AT50, I want to DROP all DISH programming EXCEPT for the HD package. DISH SD sucks on a HD set so when I can get the HD package, I don't want any of their crappy SD channels and I will not be held hostage to their DVR fee, so SCREW DISH, I get lots of HD OTA anyway & Directv is just a phonecall away.


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## Bob Haller

I think we can all agree that if the boxes cost a LOT less for existing subs then the monthly fee wouldnt be a show stopper. But defranco has already released their retail price. No break there

I think we can all agree that a per receiver fee is dumb and competively wouldnt last as lojng as D is per account.

I think we can all agree we feel this cheats us.

I think we can all agree a LIFETIME free PVR offer should be available for long term subs.

E needs to make money bvut not discourage receiver upgrades or look like they are cheating us.

As is this situation stinks.


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## treiher

*Darkman:*


> You people have gone mad i see....
> 
> Weeeeeeeeeee
> 
> Like an uncontrolable Lava or something!


More like an uncontrollable flow of money from Dish Network to DirectTV I fear. This is amazing! People obviously feel strongly about this. Dish should take advantage of having this resource and react accordingly. Without this board, they could make a decision like this and not know the consequence until the money is already flowing. They have a rare chance to stop a big mistake before it even gets started!


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## Jeff_R

Scott,

Is there any word on whether this is an optional fee or not? If I choose to get the 510 PVR (completely hypothetical, I'm not switching back to E* again!), can I choose to just use the receiver as is, without the PVR functionality? Or will they force me to pay the fee because I have the reciever?

I believe with Directv, the TiVo fee is only applicable if I decide to sub to it, it's not mandatory if I'm not mistaken (If I am, I'm sure someone will correct me soon!).

Jeff


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## Bob Haller

I have suggested to some "contacts" That they look at this long and hard. It unusual to see E trashed all over the net. Now wether this does any good is another matter. 
I think they are loosing a lot of good will and creating a army of permanent E bashers. Myself included if this doesnt change.......

How sad

I think we should try to get this contact past the call screeners on the next chat. CC autopay morphs to PVR fees for long term subs

What would be a proper reward for getting this on the air??? I might be willing to give the person a gift for pulling one over on the screeners. What would be appropiate?

They will not let me on, since I have complained in the past


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## tampa8

Bob Haller said:


> As is this situation stinks.


Amen. And that is the bottom line. If we have the facts correct, the business model Dish will put into place stinks, and sure seems like it will hurt them. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but to have a top 150 subscriber pay more for DVR functions, especially if they buy a 921 at $999 is rediculas. I'm not sure even at a lower buying cost I'm interested in paying $10 more a month forever. ($5 DVR $5 2nd receiver)


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## Bob Haller

I always bought cable converters and things like that, since I hate paying monthly fees.

I guess all dishplayer users know now the monthly fees will be coming back to them soon.


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## Jacob S

I also think that they should make those that purchase a lot of programming that would equal the value of the AEP package should also get the DVR service for free. They could make special packages with the DVR service included just as they have their special $30 package with locals and special HBO/MAX with top100 and top150 package for $50 and $60.

Question is, will there bill a charge for a second DVR anyways with the AEP package?

Also, why should those that just want a bigger hard drive have to buy a new receiver and on top of that have to pay the extra DVR fee when Dish could allow consumers to upgrade their own hard drives?


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## dishrich

FWIW, I have it IN WRITING that the 921 AND 522 were going to have FREE PVR service - it's in an E* slick brochure that I picked up at CES in January. (I'd post it for everyone to see, but don't have a scanner hooked up - I'll try & post it later)  :scratch:  

Course, I know (as a dealer) what E*'s word is worth, be it in writing or not... :eek2:  :bang:


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## DarrellP

You're right, free PVR service, but since these are now DVR's, that brochure is useless. I hope you are right though and they do not charge a fee for the 921.


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## Jacob S

Keep those brochures, it could still be considered misrepresentation of the product but at the same time since it was not presented to public and not meant to be it may not get you anywhere whether it said PVR or DVR. Would this mean that a business could promise lifetime service to a customer under a certain business name then simply change their business name and not have to service the customer anymore? Perhaps Dish should be reminded of this and having a copy of it sent to them.

Now I know that they had this planned sometime since that CES show so they have not had it planned for that long.


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## ocnier

dishrich 

Please post that as soon as you can. If nothing else it sets a time frame for when this was decided definitively.


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## Darkman

ya - LOL - they'll say DVR service is not PVR service... - so it is NOT a "fee-FREE" 

also - check somewhere on the brochure, maybe in small letters somewhere for the "Subject to Change" thinggy ( hehe - just Joking on this one  )

But then again - who knows, stranger "chit" was known to happen


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## Jacob S

Or perhaps it could be deemed as calling something two different things when in all actuality it is the same thing. Thats like calling a satellite receiver a box, tuner, descrambler, etc. when its the same thing. The only difference is the hard drive.

I would not be surprised if there is small print saying that all prices and services are subject to change without notice at any time.


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## Jacob S

If the 921 is going to be $699 instead of $999 then why is there no discount on the 510 then? Or is this some 2 year contract promotion for new subscribers only for $699 (a $300 discount instead of taking the $300 510 receiver). Dish is not going to sell the 921 for $299 to new subscribers and take an additional $700 hit just on that one receiver to get a new subscriber.

Doesn't Tivo give you the light version of their software for free? Why couldn't Dish do the same? Wouldn't Tivo's light version of their software be like Dish's current version of the software we see right now? 

You would end up paying who knows how much for all those HD channels and still be forced to buy AEP to not be charged the DVR fee? Yeouch! There should be a deal for those that buy a certain amount of programming or HD to encourage HD subscriptions. Dish is two faced trying to help stop the satellite tax but tries to charge a per receiver DVR fee and retail price even though he is charging a fee. He knows that if you get taxed more then you will be less likely to pay him as much so he would rather you pay him than the money on taxes. Its not about saving you money, its about getting Dish more money.

Speaking of revenge, I got in business by getting revenge against Primestar back in 1999 by swapping out about 50 to 60 customers to Dish Network getting the customer a free system and free install and later free 6 months of the basic package as a bonus. Every once in a while I have to remind them of how I got in business and how I can do the same against them. I made Dish tens of thousands I am sure along with many other retailers that also retailed for Dish some doing it because they backed Dish up believing in the company. 

Dish will not do anything that it does not have to do in which may include not improving DVR service but I know what I will have to do if they do such things as this and try to make money off of it, I will have to sell other types of service. I am hoping Rainbow will have retailers to sell the product for them but am not sure if they will take that route or not.


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## shortiemcgee

Take five minutes of your time and call 800-333-3474 and talk to a sales rep. Say you are interested in buying a system but read that there will be a PVR fee on ALL PVRs (okay strech the story a bit). Tell them you read that it is going to be $10 per month on each reciever. 
They will tell you that "I'm sorry, I don't have that information". Tell them you won't be signing up because of the fee and hang up.
Doesn't take much time but if enough people do it, you can assume the message will get across.


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## angiodan

I am also trying to find a brochure from CES 2003, but here is an article from the show.

http://www.tech-4-homes.com/news/ces2003/dishnetwork921.htm

Half way down, it clearly says it. NO PVR FEES!!

They wouldn't have wrote it, if it wasn't written or told to them somewhere.

In this article from Sound and Vision, it talks about the 921 and then the HD Tivo. For the HD TIvo, it talks about a monthly fee. The way the article is written implies no fee with the 921. Its about half way down the article as well.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=386

I'm sure I'll find more.

This fee crap was definitely cooked up after CES in January.


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## Mark Holtz

Actually, I called Dish to remove CC autobill. When they asked if I was satisfied with my service, I said NO, and explained why. Poor gal, she had to consult a supervisor.


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## Chris Freeland

angiodan said:


> I am also trying to find a brochure from CES 2003, but here is an article from the show.
> 
> http://www.tech-4-homes.com/news/ces2003/dishnetwork921.htm
> 
> Half way down, it clearly says it. NO PVR FEES!!
> 
> They wouldn't have wrote it, if it wasn't written or told to them somewhere.
> 
> In this article from Sound and Vision, it talks about the 921 and then the HD Tivo. For the HD TIvo, it talks about a monthly fee. The way the article is written implies no fee with the 921. Its about half way down the article as well.
> 
> http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=2&article_id=386
> 
> I'm sure I'll find more.
> 
> This fee crap was definitely cooked up after CES in January.


That is because in January 2003, their was no DVR fee on E*DVR's and E* had not announced this Fee plan yet. Company's change their minds all the time, especialy when it comes to pricing and sneak peeks at future products. These old brochures do not prove a thing. Sheesh :shrug:


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## Mark Lamutt

Please, if you start calling the Dish CSR's, at least try to be nice to them. They have no idea any of this is happening, and even if they did, they couldn't do anything about it. Granted, while a lot of the CSRs aren't very competent, they AREN'T the bad guys here. Please don't treat them like they are.

Back to lurking in this thread now...


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## HTguy

Well, I'm going to try one more time to put things in perspective.

The announcement of DVR fees was premature, incomplete and not meant for most of the people on this board.

DISH Network is not in the hardware business. They design, manufacture & distribute the hardware as a means of providing programming to their subscribers. They are in the _TV programming_ business. They give away most of the hardware with basic installation at a substantial loss ("Customer Acquisition Costs") in hopes of making it back plus an eventual profit via program subscriptions. Their primary focus always has been and always will be increasing their subscriber base & up-selling the programming.

(BTW, this keeps the overall cost of programming low to _all_ of us with minimal increases in spite of higher rates from the providers plus occasional additions.)

Selling new equipment to old customers is neither a priority nor a revenue stream. As a matter of fact, for retailers it's break-even or a loss (a "cost of business.") Actually, it almost always a loss if you factor in S&H costs and overhead.

The overwhelming majority of DISH Network subscribers are not interested in the equipment at all. To them it's just a box that puts a picture from a satellite on their TV. A minority of them appreciate upscale features like DVR & HDTV. But even many DVR owners & leasers hardly ever use the DVR capability if at all.

(I just got off the phone with a nice lady who has had one for 15 months. She was beginning to notice some video stuttering & I instructed her how to do a power reboot which solved the problem. While it was rebooting I asked her if her hard drive was full. She didn't know what I meant. I asked her how many hours of events had been recorded. It turns out she has never recorded anything! This is _not_ as untypical as the dbs geeks in this forum may think.)

But since DVR _users_ tend to be better & "stickier" customers E* has been trying to make it cheaper & easier for new subs to get a DVR _and_ they instituted a revolutionary (for them) upgrade program for existing subs.

In keeping with this they have now instituted a system wherein new customers can get a DVR system with _nothing out of pocket_. This should attract a lot of new customers to our mutual benefit.

The fact that the MSRP for the new DVR510 is $299 is almost completely irrelevant because almost nobody will buy it for $299. You will probably never see one on the shelf at Sears but if you did & someone bought one it will be a rare occurrence & most likely a return.

Ask yourself if you were really waiting for a new 120G DVR to come out so you could run out & buy it for $299. First, you were unaware of its existence. Secondly, you had no intention of paying $299 for a new DVR just because it has a bigger hard drive whether or not you found out it had monthly fees. And you still won't. The point of the monthly DVR fee is to reduce the upfront cost as much as it is to keep a long term revenue stream.

The next DVR you get, if you ever get one, will be on a DVR promotion that saves you the costs up front. It probably won't be a 510. It could be a 522 but in that case the $5mo will be negated by the $5mo a/o fee you _don't_ pay for the 2nd tuner. (Someone here postulated that a 522 would cost $15mo extra!)

If you have a 501/508/721 today, or get one while they are available, you will never pay a fee. It's been announced, repeated and put in writing.

The DVR most of _us_ have been waiting for is the 921. It will cost a lot less than projected now. The only downside is that it may take a while to get the UPG deal in place for existing subs so you may not be the 1st kid on the block to have one after all.

I saw someone say they would never sign a 2-year agreement for a DVR UPG Promo. For a 5xx series it would only be one year anyway. But if you could get a 921 for $499 with a 2-year agreement I bet a lot of people would go for it (including me!)

Getting "in Charlie's face" is not going to change anything. And neither would the "defection" of all the dbs geeks on all the forums.

So calm down, take a breath & wait for the chat on the 11th.


> Originally posted by *bob dylan*
> _...and don't criticize what you can't understand
> for the times, they are a' changing!_


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## Jacob S

I also know that anything you tell the CSR's will do you no good. They do not know as much as we do and there is nothing that they can do. All they can do is their basic routine of answering the phone, tell you what the computer tells them what to say, answering questions, activating/deactivating/changing programming. Thats about it.


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## shilton

Remember in the 80's when someone got the bright idea to make NEW COKE??? Seemed like a good idea to someone but things are not always as rosey as they appear on paper. A difference was made that time because the customers stood up and spoke out for what they believed in. If you believe this fee is un-necessary and unfair as I do, contact Dish and tell them so. Tell your friends to as well. If enough speak out, they will listen. If we just shut up and take it, they won't...its that simple. Its a matter of the power of the people.


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## Jacob S

I think its also a matter of telling this information to the right person because if you just tell a CSR this may never get noted and the information may never get moved on to the right person. Perhaps an email to Charlie Ergen himself would get his attention or another higher up.


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## shilton

Jacob S said:


> I think its also a matter of telling this information to the right person because if you just tell a CSR this may never get noted and the information may never get moved on to the right person. Perhaps an email to Charlie Ergen himself would get his attention or another higher up.


Yes...that's true. I plan on using the [email protected] email address for starters. Surely someone other than a CSR will read that.


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## Bob Haller

Frankly I think most folks will be put off by the fee and not knowing better will buy or get a standard receiver. Lowering the entry price will not help when so many dont understand what a PVR, DVR. is or how its used.

I also disagree that subs will be limited to just one PVR. I just completed upgrading to a 721 and two 508s. Turned off my last remaining 4900 the other day.

My TIVO friends all are getting all their tvs on tivos. Heck I find myself wanting to pause the radio

On the CSRs. Having E PVRs I have spent way too much time with tech support. I have churned thru 3 721s and 4 or 5 508s.

The CSRS I have spoken with have all been friendly, helpful and pretty knowledgable.

THIS IS GREAT PROGRESS FROM JUST A COUPLE YEARS AGO!!!!

Whats going on here is good but sad. We are bringing to Es atrtention the poor quality of their PVR boxes, along with making them aware of how we long term subs feel.

Having spoken with my contacts they are still clueless as to why were upset E appears only interested in lowering the cost to new subs, I HOPE they sell a lifetime account free PVR offer.

I would like a two tiered PVR price. Low with fee or higher with no fee.

I will happily pay retail to get free PVR


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## shilton

Bob Haller said:


> Having spoken with my contacts they are still clueless as to why were upset E appears only interested in lowering the cost to new subs, I HOPE they sell a lifetime account free PVR offer.


Bob,
If Dish is clueless as to why we are upset, they need to only turn their eyes to AOL's current woes. Sooner or later customer growth starts to die off and at that point, if you have no customer retention, your business begins to decline. AOL spent years of rapid growth figuring they had to do NOTHING for the existing customer because so many people kept on signing up and today they are retraining their CSR's in customer retention and begging customers to stay. They finally realized what they needed to know all along. TAKE CARE OF THE CUSTOMERS YOU HAVE. If Dish turns us off, they will lose in the end because sooner or later the rapid growth stops...Besides how much of that growth is from those of us participating in ClubDish promos, etc. Do you think I will refer a friend if I feel burnt by Dish??? Guess again. This while thing just stinks!!! 
With most things, the cost of technology gets cheaper like cell phones, computers etc...If Dish were smart, they'd find ways to make the things cheaper and better NOT MORE EXPENSIVE!!!


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## Jacob S

That would be good if they would have it as a lifetime PVR service on the account instead of the receiver but you have to realize if they do this they will have to charge you retail price on the PVR receiver.

Dish needs to receive the money for the PVR receiver one way or another, by getting the money up front in which they should be doing with getting retail out of the product or with the monthly fee if the receiver is discounted initially. It is now obvious that Dish is wanting to not only get consumers this product because of low churn but take advantage of that by making a profit off of it since they are less likely to churn anyways.

They need to give consumers the opportunity to purchase the lifetime DVR service as well. Isnt that the purpose of purchasing for retail? Isnt retail supposed to be the price at which they want to get out of their product after making a profit? Perhaps they should mark up the cost of the receiver if they actually want to make a profit on it but I suppose they do not want to do this because that would deter customers right off the bat but to say one price for the receiver and one price for the monthly/lifetime DVR service makes it not look so bad.

Dish is obviously wanting the basic receivers to be the ones in which they do not make a profit on for those entry level customers and then make a profit on the higher end receivers one way or another. Its not bad for a company to want to make a profit but bad to charge a heck of a lot more than your competition and per receiver. Do you have to pay for the full programming price per receiver? Do you have to pay for Playin' Tv per receiver? No, its one fee per account.


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## Jacob S

Isn't Dish trying to compete against cable for having lower prices and how they do not raise their fees as much as cable does? I have read quite a few times about how Dish and DirecTv both have been looking more at subscriber growth trying to get more and more customers rather than trying to keep the ones that they do have. I read once where DirecTv gained 750,000 customers one quarter a while back (if I am not mistaken) but because they lost 500,000 customers their actual net gain was only 250,000 customers. What is going to happen once they quit getting as many new customers? They are going to have to try to keep the ones they have to still make the numbers look good to show actual gains. Wouldn't it be cheaper to pay $100 to keep some subscribers than paying $300-$500 to gain a new one? You could keep 3-5 subscribers for the same cost as gaining one new one.

Its one thing to get people into subscribing to satellite but another to get them to stay a satellite subscriber. You cannot assume that customer will stay once you get that person as a subscriber if you cannot remain competitive and keep the customer satisfied.


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## Jeff_R

shilton said:


> Yes...that's true. I plan on using the [email protected] email address for starters. Surely someone other than a CSR will read that.


And your reply will be something like "Thank you for your email. We'll get back to you when we can tell you something." That was the message I got when I told them why I was cancelling, and why I was ticked at them. Seems even the CEO's email address is now subject to the lack of customer support that it once was.  
Jeff


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## Mark Holtz

The only way to get a response on good issues is to write a letter.

Don't e-mail. It's easy to hit the delete key.

Don't fax. They can set up a system to download the faxes to the computer.


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## homam

:soapbox: 501, 508 , and soon to come out 510 cost dish network less than 100$ I install FTA dish with HD or PVR you could buy them for about 160$ cost with list price of 299$ that is 30GHD so you tell me now days with 120G HD costing dish less than 50$ :shrug: "i'm sure they don’t use the good stuff you could tell by the number of RAM that all of as had :grrr: " why they have the 510 priced at 299$ with the fee and the 721 over 400$ and the big joke 921 at over 900$ did any one look at dish k-10 earning statement and how much they make of hardware unite i thought they sale it to us at loss :bang :new_Eyecr :flaiming


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## shilton

Z'Loth said:


> The only way to get a response on good issues is to write a letter.
> 
> Don't e-mail. It's easy to hit the delete key.
> 
> Don't fax. They can set up a system to download the faxes to the computer.


Ok...anyone got a GOOD mailing address for their offices where the letter stands a chance at getting read? If so, please post it here. I WILL WRITE and I encourage others to do the same


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## Bob Haller

I am so disappointed I am going to get a photo of me burning pom poms and put it on the net. E is screwing their loyal subs.

They are selling the 510 for roughly the same price as the 508. Its the same bdx with a bigger cheaper hard drive.

Nothing changed E just got greedy. I wouldnt do business with them anymore.

How about sneaking some calls about this on the next chuck chat? I will provide a gift for anyone who successfully gets it on the air!

Its my belief the beancounters have taken over and I doubt charlie is aware of the furor this has caused....


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## Bob Haller

Simple solution to this mess. E sells 510s with DVR fee and box is near free. 

E sells 512 identical unit for retail and it carries FREE DVR for the life of the unit.

Customers have choice and purchase exactly what they want.......

Things get back to normal here


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## Bob Haller

Echostar
5701 S. Santa Fe Drive
Littleton Colorado 80120

Would someone please confirm the zip code? Theres a bit of ucertanity on this but this is headquarters and charlie.

I heard once of a tellegram service where the addressee HAD TO PERSONALLY sign for it. No secretaries or flunkies to reroute the mail. Wonder if this is still available?


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## Phil T

The zip code is correct.


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## Peluso

Bob Haller said:


> Simple solution to this mess. E sells 510s with DVR fee and box is near free.
> 
> E sells 512 identical unit for retail and it carries FREE DVR for the life of the unit.
> 
> Customers have choice and purchase exactly what they want.......
> 
> Things get back to normal here


this solution works perfectly for me.


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## 418583

Jacob S said:


> Dish needs to receive the money for the PVR receiver one way or another, by getting the money up front in which they should be doing with getting retail out of the product or with the monthly fee if the receiver is discounted initially.


I agree with this _in part_.

It appears that PVRs cost more money to E*:

1. Software development - the code in PVRs is more complex than in regular receivers

2. Continuing software development - both bug fixes and new features.

3. CSR support costs - more complexity equals more/longer calls (doesn't matter whether it's customer ignorance or buggy software)

4. Hardware replacement costs - boxes with hard drives fail more regularly than those without.

Apparently, E* thinks that adding $5 (average) per month *per receiver* is the best way to recover those costs. Others have argued that at best the charges should be per account. Let's look at each of the above:

1. DISAGREE - should be recovered as part of receiver cost.

2. REASONABLE - (let's ignore fairness issue of charging for bug fixes) charging equal amount per receiver that receives updates

3. MIXED - your multiple receivers may "act up" more than my one BUT ignorance calls should be same per account (or lower since you are smarter).

4. AGREE - hardware failures are related to number of receivers.

*However, I am 100% convinced that E* is DEAD WRONG in trying to recover those costs with a monthly PVR fee.*

Let's face it; a monthly fee turns off even new subs. If you are new to PVRs and see a monthly fee you just say "not interested" and get a 301. If you really want a PVR then you compare $5 monthly costs and (likely?) conclude that DirecTiVo is a *much* better product.

What should have E* done (or should be doing)?

1. Software development should be amortized over larger number of boxes. Many people have stated this...market PVRs!!

2. Software "support" - look to the shareware software community if you want a model. Continue to provide bug fixes (and minor enhancements such as things you had planned to put in initially or features that make you more competitive) *for free via download as long as I am a customer with that receiver*. BUT...Continue to develop more advanced features (that roll into new products) but bundle those into a "major release" that you market and charge for (one time). After having a 501 for 2 years would you pay $50 (per receiver perhaps with quantity discount) to version 2.0 software that included name based recording, etc.? I would...

3. CSR support costs can be reduced by first building a less buggy product! Second, if PVRs were preloaded with sets of getting started videos ("Basic Operation", "Recording Your First Show", "Searching", "Advanced Features", "Troubleshooting", etc.) perhaps you would get fewer ignorance calls.

4. Hardware replacement. If there is any E* billing plan that needs changing it the Extended Warranty. $2 per month and E* will replace anything no matter how much equipment you own. What idiot thought that was a good idea? Everone on this board knows that if you have even only 1 PVR you should buy this. How much money is E* losing here? I'd change the plan to the following: $2 per month base plan covers antenna and basic receiver, $1 extra if you have PVR. Then add $1 per month per additional non-PVR reveiver and $2 per month per DVR. Of course, these dollar amounts may not be right.

Under my plan, E* would be getting $1 per month more cash (Extended Warranty, 501 is only receiver) from me and I'm currently grandfathered! What's more they would be getting it voluntarily.

Submitted for your approval...


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## Bob Haller

I too agree E spends more on PVR subs but gains stickiness.

I think the monthly fee will hurt E PVR sales, but heck they need to find that out for themselves

Better boxes with more robust software, better drives, and fewer models all using the same basic software would go a long way to save them money.

Face facts they didnt need the 721 it should of used 501 basic software. Fewer models equals less cost and incremental improvements in software.

Of my 6 or 7 PVR replacements in the last two years most were software issues or found to be software later. 

HDs should be plug in modules the sub could change themselves by plugging in.

The failed HDs would of never gone back to E if I could of swaped the HD myself.\

E should sell the HDs with preloaded software for easy swapping.

Back to my current idea. E selling two different models one cheap with charge DVR and one more exopensive with FREE DVR for the life of the box.

Whoewver decides the fee should be per box is out to lunch. That person should resign for stupidity

That will discourage even the most avid PVR user espically sounds bad to a new sub.


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## Unthinkable

Bob Haller said:


> I am so disappointed I am going to get a photo of me burning pom poms and put it on the net. E is screwing their loyal subs.
> 
> They are selling the 510 for roughly the same price as the 508. Its the same bdx with a bigger cheaper hard drive.
> 
> Nothing changed E just got greedy. I wouldnt do business with them anymore.
> 
> How about sneaking some calls about this on the next chuck chat? I will provide a gift for anyone who successfully gets it on the air!
> 
> Its my belief the beancounters have taken over and I doubt charlie is aware of the furor this has caused....


You've threatened to run kicking and screaming to DirecTV both here and over on alt.dbs.echostar for as long as most of the regulars have known you. If we had a nickel for everytime you said you were all done with Dish we could retire early as a group in all seriousness. Even when Dish properly remedies problems for you, there is usually no level of general satisfaction, appreciation, or happiness ever shown here when it gets down to the bottom line. As a disclaimer to all the hardware exchanges you've had so far, you should probably note more frequently that you aren't a typical user by any stretch of the imagination when it comes to recording shows. Please put your money where your mouth is and follow through on said threats for once if its truly a deal breaker for you and move on with things.


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## ads

IMO I think this is just a marketing ploy by dish.Jim and amir announce a new DVR the 510 that not many people have heard of or care about and they announce a fee.Three things happen (1) Wall Street picks up the story, good for the stock.(2)Dish is in the spotlight albeit negatively but the spotlight anyway.(3)Charlie is at the next chat says echo 9 launches the superdish is about to go into production and no DVR fee you asked for it you got it b.s. and now Wall Street really likes this.
If I am wrong dish your f*%#!ng crazy


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## Bob Haller

Look I have been a E supporter and cheerleader from the begining/ My interest and posting goes back over 6 years and is closer to 7. E has done so much for the industry like LIL, without that DBS would still be a also ran.

But I call them as I see them. I have pomed there good ideas but will call them out when they are wrong. This is clearly one of those times.

My last rant was about the DP fees coming back. E offered me a super upgrade, then decide to not institute the fees. If the fee issue hadnt comne up I would likely still be using my dippy dishplayers. I actually miss their user interface.

I just like EVERY OTHER CUSTOMER have the right to be happy or mad when spending my money!

If I supported or stayed silent on this issue would you be happy?

Nah you would probably complain about it.

Looks like someone will be unhappy WHATEVER i say

Oh well such is life. At least you know I call em as I see them>...


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## Darkman

hehe @ Unthinkable and Bob Haller


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## Jacob S

510 with DVR charge and 512 without a DVR charge is not going to happen. A simpler solution would have a lower hardware cost and let you choose whether you pay for lifetime DVR or a monthly charge. Why make the same receiver putting a different number on it to do the same? Can their computers not handle this as they had said about other things before? I guess they wont use that excuse as they know that we already know about that one.


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## ocnier

I think they might try a test run for lifetime pvr service, even at $200, I know that I would keep my 921 till the cows come home so it would be worth it, and still be better than tivo since D* doesn't even give that option. I already dropped them for D*, but I am still holding out a small glimmer of hope the charlie will come to his senses in time for xmas this year (assuming it actually is forsale this year).


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## Bob Haller

Isnt it odd that while D reduced Tivo fees E increased them dramatically?

D at the time thought it was better to retain subs.

If charlie doesnt do the you asked for it you got it I wonder how long before they see DVR sales drop and go with FREE DVR?


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## Jacob S

I also thought that was odd how Dish increases fees while DirecTv lowers them.

Dish should charge for the DVR upfront or per month, NOT BOTH!!! Either sell the product at retail in which includes lifetime DVR service, sell the product at a discount and charge for the DVR service, and/or improve the DVR service to make it worthwhile. 

I am surprised that they do not charge $2 per PVR receiver on the extended warranty. 

Also I am so surprised that Dish does not have some kind of live online tech support. I would think that this would save them a lot of money and be easier in some cases. Wouldn't it be nice if people had webcams and you could show live the screens on the receiver if someone was having problems, digital camera pictures of the trees around the area of an install and determining from that where to install the dish, and different things like that? I am surprised that Dish did not come up with their own message board a long time ago. They should have online live tech support and refer all their customers to that and then have the tech support over the phone if the customer does not have internet service. I would not mind working online doing something such as this. 

I am not saying that I am definitely going to DirecTv. I am very comfortable being with Dish and would rather get a PC PVR without the fee in which is a lot more flexible anyways and thought of this even before this fee was announced because the hardware cost is less and for what I save I can get a DVD burner and do hard drive upgrades. The bigger hard drive and DVD burner could be used both for my computer and for PVR in which makes much more sense to have more uses for the product that you buy.


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## pjm877

Well, after reading all these messages... I think Dish is making a big error... 

I was Looking at the HDTV package, and replacing the 811 (or whatever low end rec it came with) with a 921. That could come to well close to $2500-$3000... Guess Dish does not want my money.

I will stay with DISH until my 721 has failed and DISH (will not/can not) repair/replace the unit with a just in kind unit that does not have the Monthly fee. 

As for the upgrades, I could see a new offering that the user must pay for the "Upgrade with new features", but bug fixes to your current software are free. You choose if you want to upgrade or not. I feel it would be OK if this was put in place for the 501 -> current PVR/DVR units. 

AND, I feel that the "record by name" and the "Record for Season Pass" would be "NEW FEATURES", something you would have to "pass the palm with green" to get installed into your unit. This could easily be done with a code on the account, you pay.. your account as the code, and the unit will turn on this function. End of story. 

I do not like the modle that E* is looking to use... And how will we really know if that "EXTRA" fee is really going toward better software engineers or software (R&D). I think it is being used to help recover from the failed attemp to get D*, and all that money Charile lost E*. 

Now I am not in the DISH everthing group but my bill is over $60 a month for programing and the three units I have (501/721/6000) that "knock on wood" the 501 and 6000 are not giving me any problems.... the 721 is another thread all together.. But HDD will fail, and I hope DISH will replace... 

Perry


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## Guest

I was waiting for the 921 and the new HD package before switching back to Dish. Looks like now I'll stay with Direct and wait for the Tivo device.


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## Lyle_JP

I was cheesed over the "Superdish strategy" which would make my beloved 4900 obselete. I was miffed that there were no promotions for existing customers that would make upgrading to HD less expensive. But this new PVR, oh sorry, DVR fee is too much. I was actually willing to pony up for the 921 and superdish, but now, as soon as it's conveniant, D* here I come.

Congrats E*, you just lost a three year, $65+ /mo subscriber. I hope that extra $5/mo was worth it.


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## ocnier

You know what kills me the most is that D* will sweep them marketing wise. I mean this decision just doesn't make any sense at all. How on earth could can they possibly miscalculate this grossly. It's almost suicidal from a sales competition standpoint.


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## Scottyo

Whoa, what a hornets nest E* has stirred up with the Dbstalk folks. As I recall there was talk of a month fee to use the pvr functions on the 501, before they were released, but they decided to raise the price of the unit and drop the fee. Now I would like to make a suggestion that may lead E* to chance their minds. DO NOT BUY the new units. Now if I was a decision maker and I had an entire warehouse full of 510's with 522's and 921's on the way, I would rethink my plans to charge extra.


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## Bob Haller

Its not us that will decide. If the new sub rate drops because of the fee or few new subs opt for the 510 the fee will be history

Frankly I hope this bites them in the butt, not only here where they have done tremendous damage to their reputation but I hope the 510s collect dust in the warehouse.

I think a beancounter was behind the fees. Not only were they uncompetive with D but per unit? What were they thinking.


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## Guest

Does anyone know if the new charges will also include new functionality?

I have a PVR501, and I want to upgrade to the new PVR921. 

I'm wondering if besides HD, will I get all the bells and whistles of TIVO. Will I be able to say I want to watch Justice League without having to worry about what time it is on? Isn't that the way TIVO works when you have the subscription? 

I think I will be willing to pay the additional $5 a month with my 150 subscription if they added that capability?

Just a side thing.
Maybe someone has already said this, but my prediction is Aug 11th will be the launch of SuperDish, the 811, and PVR921. The reason I say this, is because Charlie Ergin will anounce it on Charlie Chat next Monday.


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## ylinen

I have been paying a PVR fee to Dish since 2000 when I bought my Dishplayer. Hasn't everyone who has a Dishplayer? Has Dish been getting $9.99 from me for 3 years and I didn't know I was being taken?


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## Bob Haller

There was a lofetime or 3 year deal for the dishplayer service best $99 I ever spent.


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## Joe Q

Something that I stated on the other board a couple of months ago, seems to apply to this situation.


> Originally posted by Joe Q:
> *Mike:
> He's not called "CHEAP CHARLIE" for nothing you know. He's a shrewd business man and he's not going to give away anything for nothing. (even if he really should)
> 
> He's always going to do what's in the best interest of HIS COMPANY first, and not always do what's in the best interest of his customers. That's just the way that he is.
> 
> He's an economics major and he does everything by the book. Even if that means turning his back and not taking care of people who have been loyal to him in the past, and have helped him get where he is today.*


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## Jacob S

They may have charged for the PVR fees on the dishplayer but they also sold them for as cheap as $149 without having to get some special deal or commitment like some have to do now with getting the 501 or 508. They had it retail for that price for anyone to buy.


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## Bob Haller

What was typical retail with no fee as compared to discounted box price with monthly fee.

I dont remember the details...


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## DarrellP

> I'm wondering if besides HD, will I get all the bells and whistles of TIVO.


 :lol: :icon_lol: :rolling: :icon_lol: !rolling :uglyhamme

That will be the day!


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## Jacob S

They never offered a lifetime subscription with the receiver but later offered subs a $99 deal in which was originally supposed to be lifetime but ended up being only about 2 or 3 years of service for that price.


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## xgrep

I was already considering switching from SBC DSL and E* to ComCast ... just waiting to see if they had an interesting enough offer. And now they do. I might not have switched, but this kind of nonsense - and the certain knowledge that there will be more, much more - pushed me over the edge.

So for exactly what I'm getting now with E*, plus a couple more channels, plus faster internet (1.5M instead of 384K), I'll pay $5/mo more (I do get to pocket about $120 total worth of savings during the promotion period, but I didn't consider that in my calculations). So there's my DVR fee, you say, except that I'm getting a bit more for my money, plus at least the possibility that I'll be dealing with a company that doesn't constantly come up with such customer-losing schemes. And since I still own my E* gear, if I ever get pissed off with ComCast, I could re-sign up as a new E* customer when a great promotion comes along! 

Congratulations, Charlie, I know you'll enjoy your parachute as your stockholders battle it out with the lawyers during the Ch.11 proceedings.

As for the rest of you existing E* chumps .. er .. customers, face it, you'll pony up the $5/box/mo because ... well, because you will. And Charlie knows it. Go ahead, prove him wrong. Defect. You won't.


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## Bob Haller

I thought Comcast would take your equiptement for the discount. What did you do give them a 1000 that was broke with no card?


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## Jacob S

Cable companies do not always go for the satellite hardware, but try to get customers period whether they have satellite or not or want you back as a customer. Some of the deals to switch over gave from $200 to as much as $400 when you gave them your satellite gear and they threw it away (at least the dishes). If they were smart they would at least sell it on ebay but maybe they do that and we dont know it or sell it to certain people.


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## HTguy

:listenup:

Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it. 

The DVR fees are a way to lower the cost of the hardware. In fact, for new subs the DVR510 will be free with a 12mo agreement. And with a 24mo agreement they can get another receiver free at the same time & get it all installed free, too. 

There will certainly be UPG Promos for existing customers. In fact JD announced that the current "PVR UPG" promo will change next month.

Say what you will about Charlie, he likes to compete with DirecTV & the cable companies. E* prices itself under them whenever they can. The PVR721 is probably one time they really failed & the demand for it has thus been a disappointment. They seem to have learned something from that & they will now be bringing the DVR921 for a lot less than anticipated.

You just have to factor the $5mo over the number of years you will use the product. You could use a DVR for over 3 years before you exceed what it would cost to get a PVR508 for $199 on the standard promo today. 5 years if you actually paid the $299 MSLP (which nobody does anyway.) Of course, if you are an AEP sub like many of us here you pay no fees. So it's also an inducement to get more programming that will succeed with some people.

If you really think Charlie, his executive team & all his bean counters are stupid it will be interesting to see what you think a year from now. 
:imwith:


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## xgrep

Bob Haller said:


> I thought Comcast would take your equiptement for the discount. What did you do give them a 1000 that was broke with no card?


Ha ha .

Actually, they never mentioned taking the satellite gear, and I wouldn't have given it even if they offered. Can't figure out how that would be a business they'd want to be in, but you never know.

x


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## Bob Haller

Lots of cable companies take ands crush DBS receivers to discourage people from returning to DBS.


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## TimL

And how is that supposed to discourage them? If they really want to go back to DBS, nothing is stopping them..


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## Anthony

Dear Mr. Ergen,

While I won't begin to try to understand your business case for the DVR fees, I can see how it may be appealing to new subs. All I ask is that you don't forget your loyal current subs. I know that, to increase subscriber growth, the best deals go to the newbies. This doesn't mean that those of us who enjoy having Dish also enjoy watching the new subs get all the 
good deals. Throw us a bone every once in a while and we'll take it and go back to doing whatever it is we normally do. Not being nice creates a lot of barking. Just take a look at the DBSTalk thread - http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=17141 Almost 17,000 views and over 400 replys. All of it a negative response to your upcoming DVR Fees. Time to throw the bone!


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## Chris Freeland

HTguy said:


> :listenup:
> 
> Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it.
> 
> The DVR fees are a way to lower the cost of the hardware. In fact, for new subs the DVR510 will be free with a 12mo agreement. And with a 24mo agreement they can get another receiver free at the same time & get it all installed free, too.
> 
> There will certainly be UPG Promos for existing customers. In fact JD announced that the current "PVR UPG" promo will change next month.
> 
> Say what you will about Charlie, he likes to compete with DirecTV & the cable companies. E* prices itself under them whenever they can. The PVR721 is probably one time they really failed & the demand for it has thus been a disappointment. They seem to have learned something from that & they will now be bringing the DVR921 for a lot less than anticipated.
> 
> You just have to factor the $5mo over the number of years you will use the product. You could use a DVR for over 3 years before you exceed what it would cost to get a PVR508 for $199 on the standard promo today. 5 years if you actually paid the $299 MSLP (which nobody does anyway.) Of course, if you are an AEP sub like many of us here you pay no fees. So it's also an inducement to get more programming that will succeed with some people.
> 
> If you really think Charlie, his executive team & all his bean counters are stupid it will be interesting to see what you think a year from now.
> :imwith:


Give up, I have. Some people here just want to cry and moan. To understand what is obvious by your math requires some people to think. :shrug:


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## DanielD

I WAS going to buy a 921. Not now...


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## Bob Haller

About cable buying DBS boxes. They figure if you cancelled service, and they often take the receivers and dish that you will not qualify as a new sub so going back will be coistly and thus discourage churn. Nobody likes churn not even cable.


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## Lyle_JP

> Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it.
> 
> The DVR fees are a way to lower the cost of the hardware. In fact, for new subs the DVR510 will be free with a 12mo agreement. And with a 24mo agreement they can get another receiver free at the same time & get it all installed free, too.


The key phrase there is "new subs". All us people who are pissed off... we're _current_ subs. There will be no hardware subsidies for us, no free or near-free receivers, but we'll *still* get stuck with the DVR fee for our premium upgrades.

As for the arguement "the Dishplayer had a fee", I'd like to point out that the Dishplayer, like Tivo and UltimateTV, had a third party involved in the software end of things, in this case Microsoft. With these Dish DVRs, the only "service" they're really providing is what they _already_ provide, namely a 7-day program guide. But now they'd like to charge us a monthly fee for it. :nono:


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## HTguy

Lyle_JP said:


> The key phrase there is "new subs". All us people who are pissed off... we're _current_ subs. There will be no hardware subsidies for us, no free or near-free receivers, but we'll *still* get stuck with the DVR fee for our premium upgrades.


 Wrong.

Someone heard that the DVR510 has a MSRP of $299 and started this uproar with the idea that current subs will have to pay this plus the DVR fees. Well, it's true that if they have them on the shelf at Sears in a few weeks and someone who doesn't know better buys one over the counter he will be in for a surprise.

But there will certainly be Upgrade Promos so existing subs so that they can get newer DVRs for a considerable discount especially if its tied to a programming comittment.

Look at it this way:

On the current FREE DISH Promotion a new customer can get a $149 DP301 system for free with a 12mo agreement for at least AT50 or he can pay $200 diference for a PVR508.

On the current PVR UPG Promotion an existing customer can get a PVR508 for $199 with a 12mo agreement for at least AT100.

The only real difference is AT50 vs AT100 to qualify.

Next month a new customer can get a DVR510 "free" under the same terms.

So why wouldn't an existing customer get a comperable deal when they amend the PVR UPG Promo like Jim said they would?

Not that you necessarily want a DVR510 anyway. But with the fee policy we can anticipate the same structure of pricing on the 522 & 921.

Got it?


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## pjm877

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it. 

The DVR fees are a way to lower the cost of the hardware. In fact, for new subs the DVR510 will be free with a 12mo agreement. And with a 24mo agreement they can get another receiver free at the same time & get it all installed free, too. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So they are going to give me a 921 for FREE... and at the end of... lets say... 18 months, it is mine to do whatever I want to... and I too want to be able to replace my HDD when it goes bad..... and to get your deal I have to leave DISH... wait awhile... then come back as a new sub... I don't think so... DISH you reading this.... 

I think I would do the RETAIL and no fee's.... thanks you very much... and as to install... to do it the way I did it would cost in the 100's... none of this wires along the outside of the house... put the switch in the attic and the wires down the walls... 

Cable is starting to look better and better each day... now if they have a dual tuner PVR/DVR Box, I think I am there.... bye bye DISH...


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## Lee L

HTGuy,

All we are doing is speculating here and unless you have inside info, you don't "know" there are any upgrade deals coming. In the past, when E* told the existing sub about a great "upgrade" deal it was no better than what Joe Blow off the street got and usually much worse.

*They announced the 921 pricing 17 days before the DVR fee. Is it your speculation that in that time, E* completely changed their pricing strategy? If so, why havent they even mentioned to Scott that the 921 would not be as much as they announced on the Tech Chat?*


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## DarrellP

HTGuy must work for Dish, he just doesn't "get it".

I don't care about getting a subsidy or cheaper equipment. I don't want to pay a DVR fee, PERIOD. Dish's equipment is not good enough to justify a DVR fee and probably never will be, plus they don't pay anyone for the rights to this technology, so where is the justification to charge more than TIVO?


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## HTguy

Lee L said:


> HTGuy,
> 
> All we are doing is speculating here and unless you have inside info, you don't "know" there are any upgrade deals coming. In the past, when E* told the existing sub about a great "upgrade" deal it was no better than what Joe Blow off the street got and usually much worse.
> 
> *They announced the 921 pricing 17 days before the DVR fee. Is it your speculation that in that time, E* completely changed their pricing strategy? If so, why havent they even mentioned to Scott that the 921 would not be as much as they announced on the Tech Chat?*


Well, I know there will be "enhancements" to the PVR UPG Promo that ends 8/31 because JD said so on the chat and they put it in the memo they emailed me the other day.

And why, prey tell, should an existing sub expect a better deal than Mr. Blow gets off the street? He was like Mr. Blow is once, wasn't he? And he got a new cust promo then that cost E* $$$s didn't he?

I guess you think DISH should just hand out new hardware everytime someone wants the latest & greatest. How long do think they'd stay in business with that policy?

BTW, the proposed 921 price they mentioned on the tech chat (which most of us knew anyway) was given by the VP of engineering. He is often unaware of what the marketing team is up to which has led to similar misunderstandings.

I expect that when the "DVR921" ships it will have the $999 MSRP just as the DVR510 has an announced $299MSRP. I just don't expect that any potential 921 owner will have to pay that.

And I think that once you get the facts from the horse's mouth on upcoming chats you will realize that all this uproar was based on incomplete & wrong information.


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## Jacob S

And for those that already got the PVR UPG deal that wants a larger hard drive or two tuners in one receiver have to pay a fee even if they were to pay retail price for the receiver? Those that done got the deal would be out of luck. They should allow one to trade in a receiver towards a new or remanufactured receiver that is more up to date. I guess people could just sell the receiver instead of trading it in to make up for some of the hardware cost instead in which may be a better choice anyways.


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## DarrellP

I'll gladly pay $1k for a 921 IF THERE ARE NO DVR FEES ASSOCIATED WITH IT, otherwise, Sorry Charlie, you may as well throw it overboard and make a boat anchor out of it.


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## Ken_F

> Dish's equipment is not good enough to justify a DVR fee and probably never will be, plus they don't pay anyone for the rights to this technology, so where is the justification to charge more than TIVO?


In the other 921 Q&A thread, Dish indicated that it would be offering guide information (possibly 9 days) for local DTV/HDTV channels received with an antenna. For me, at least, this service would justify $4.99/mo.

However, I still would not pay $4.99-$9.99/mo for Dish's PVR service, as it exists today.


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## Darkman

Do not forget - the more subscribe - the less DVR service fee will be,
With "Subscirbe it ALL" - the FEE is waved - NO FEE at ALL 

Bulk discount - so to speak i suppose


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## Bob Haller

HTguy said:


> And I think that once you get the facts from the horse's mouth on upcoming chats you will realize that all this uproar was based on incomplete & wrong information.


If E were smart there will be lots of backpedling, stating you miss understood, and things like that.

Considering the hatred or extreme dislike this fee generated.


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## Mark Holtz

I thought I might bring up one point that noone else has brought up... the cost of a DVR for an _existing_ customer. Everyone knows that the best deals are when you sign up, so we can't take that into account. But, what about Joe subscriber who already has an account?

Here's the pricing I got online for EXISTING customers (and remember, a stock HDVR2 comes with a 40GB hard drive and two tuners):

Orbitsat - Hughes HDVR2 - $199.95
Orbitsat - Hughes HDVR2 upgraded to 105 Hours - $399
Orbitsat - Phillips DSR-7000 upgraded to 220 Hours - $549

ExpertSatellite - DirecTivo - $249

ValueElectronics - HDVR 2 - $239
-> Add $250 for 120MB hard drive upgrade

RapidSatellite - Hughes HDVR2 - $269
RapidSatellite - Hughes HDVR2 upgraded to 105 Hours - $499

How about Dish Customers? Lets see what they have in the PVR department:

Dish Depot - 508 (60 Hours, Single Tuner) - $279
Dish Depot - 510 (80 Hours, Single Tuner) - $299
Dish Depot - 522 (80 Hours, Dual Tuner) - $???
Dish Depot - 721 (90 Hours, Dual Tuner) - $529

*These prices are from various Internet dealers, and may or may not including shipping and handling.*

So, for the price of a single tuner DVR from Dish, we have have a dual tuner DVR from DirecTV with, as stock, comes with a smaller hard drive plus a one year commitment to programming at Total Choice or above. But that DVR can easily be upgraded, while Dish's DVRs hard drives are not upgradable at all.

And Dish wants HOW MUCH for a single tuner DVR service fee? :hurah:


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## rtt2

The so called "PVR UPG" promo - is that an abbreviation or a computer code E* uses? What I am trying to understand is if I call up looking for this deal what do I ask for. Do I say P-V-R U-P-G or ...........?


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## xgrep

HTguy said:


> :listenup: Jeez, it looks like some of you guys still don't get it. :imwith:


You're making the situation far more complicated than it is, and it's you who don't get it. For me, the decision had nothing to do with anything as clever as figuring out why Charlie's move is such a reasonable deal for E*. It's a simple question of arithmetic and my monthly bill.

I currently have two receivers and subscribe to my locals and one int'l a la carte. My monthly bill (less PPVs if any) comes to $26. I planned to get a 921 and add DiscoveryHD (and the occasional HD PPV), and eventually a 5xx.

Under the currently proposed DVR fee, I would see my monthly bill go up by $20 just for the DVR fees. That's just way too much. Maybe if I were already on a big package like AEP, where there would be no increase, or AT150 with a $10 total bump, the difference wouldn't be that much. But I can't "throw away" $20 a month because Charlie knows he can get away with it. I didn't cut the competition any slack on this just because I'm annoyed by E*. I priced out D*, Comcast, and a couple of other options, and until Charlie showed up with the $20 hit, E* was about even with Comcast. Now it's a no-brainer.

What about this am I "not getting"?

x


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## Karl Foster

The absolute killer to me is the PER RECEIVER DVR fee. Did they do NO research when they came up with this plan? Do they not see the competition chrages per account, not per receiver? Hloly crap!

I know HTGuy will justify this somehow, but this is just a plain stupid move on their part. An AT50 subscriber with two DVR's will double his bill just in DVR fees and additional STB fees. I admit I pay an obsene amount for UTV service ($9.95 per month), but it covers all three of my UTV's, and I only paid $39 per box for the first two that I orders - as an existing customer. If they are going to charge a DVR fee - lets see some real software improvements, and make it a per-account rather than per DVR fee. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but it is just a plain old dumb idea.


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## Lee L

HTGuy,

I never meant to say that I expected the same deal as a new sub, I have no problem with that. I was referencing the past "deals" on 508's where E* would say, "since you have been such a good long term customer with a high level package, come buy this 508 for the extra special price of $199." In fact, any current sub could get that even if they subbed to AT50 for 6 months. Even worse when they tried to act like they were giving DishPlayer owners a great deal on a 508 as goodwill for the problems and in fact it was the very same deal Joe Blow with a 301 and AT50 could get.

Here is the way I see it, maybe you can tell me different. On the Tech Chat, the price of $999 for existing subs was announced, 17 days later they said new DVR's will have a fee of $10 a month. For an existing sub, the 921 will now be as much as $1359 for the first 3 years, no? 

Oh, and BTW, I never got a receiver at more than a tiny discount. I paid $450 for a 4500, 3500 and Dish 300 in 1996 or 1997, bought DishPlayer one and a Dish 500 in 99 for the full price at the time of $299 or $399 IIRC, bought DP 2 a couple of months later for $249. In early 2001 I Bought a 6000 for the low low price of $549 on the web and managed to snag an 8VSB adapter for $129. In 2002 I actually managed to get a free SW64 from E* because of the locals on 61.5 deal, then I bought an 8PSK adapter earlier this year for $49 when it was looking like ESPN-HD would be coming to E* and they had the thing on sale the month before ESPN was supposed to launch (interesting timing there) and after all the adapter was what was needed to get "all the new HDTV programming from Dish Network." So there you go, $1825 worth of dish network equipment over a little more than 5 years and I have always had at least AT100, HBO and SHO and have done all of my own installation. Currently I have AT150, locals, supers, SHO, and HBO, have 3 recievers hooked up and pay just a touch under $100 a month and will still have to pay $4.95 a month for the DVR fee since I don't have AEP.

I guess that is the crux of the issue for many is the nickel and diming and recent changes in strategy causing us to buy new equipment then being told we are getting a good deal when we can tell by the feeling in our rear what is really happening. Please forgive me if I am a little hesitant to beleive that things will all work out in the end without some evidence to the contrary. Hopefully, they will address some of this stuff on the Charlie Chat and I will be all wrong and we will all get a good deal. If so, I will be more than happy to come on here and tell you that you were right and I was way wrong about it.


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## Jacob S

Charlie would say "If you can afford the DVR you can afford the fee". Maybe we should ask "What would Charlie do?


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## xgrep

Not exactly on topic, but given that Comcast can only be considered a competitor to E* if they have an HD (or any) DVR in the works, a search on Google for motorola DCT-6000 turns up several articles, such as:
http://www.cedmagazine.com/cedailydirect/0503/cedaily030506.htm

And according to the Comcast web site, they are currently testing a DVR (presumably non-HD) in the Washington DC area:

http://www.comcast.com/Support/Corp1/FAQ/FaqDetail_1644.html

If the DCT-6000 actually ships before the 921, I can imagine there will be some number of people who will see Comcast as the HDTV leader, though I don't know how much content they carry in HD.

x


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## spanishannouncetable

Z'Loth said:


> Here's the pricing I got online for EXISTING customers (and remember, a stock HDVR2 comes with a 40GB hard drive and two tuners):


You didn't mention that the HDVR2 is available straight from Directv for $159 + s&h.

Just call 1-800-DIRECTV and use the offer code FFDVR :coolglass


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## HTguy

Lee L said:


> Here is the way I see it, maybe you can tell me different. On the Tech Chat, the price of $999 for existing subs was announced, 17 days later they said new DVR's will have a fee of $10 a month. For an existing sub, the 921 will now be as much as $1359 for the first 3 years, no?
> 
> ...Hopefully, they will address some of this stuff on the Charlie Chat and I will be all wrong and we will all get a good deal. If so, I will be more than happy to come on here and tell you that you were right and I was way wrong about it.


 I am confident that when they address the concept of DVR fees on this & future Charlie Chats, which, of course, are directed to existing customers, they will explain the lowering of the equipment costs that the fees make possible.

I wouldn't be real surprised if they only discuss it in general terms Monday because 522s & 921s are some time away and 508s & 721s are still around.

Regardless of when the actual pricing structure of the new DVRs and promotions for them are detailed I am absolutely sure that you won't have to pay $999 for a 921 + monthly fees unless you run out & buy the first one you can find.

Charlie & his gang are trying to compete with cable & DirecTV. They know that in order to do that they have to be able to offer more HD content, more convenience features, lower pricing, or all of the above.


xgrep said:


> I currently have two receivers and subscribe to my locals and one int'l a la carte. My monthly bill (less PPVs if any) comes to $26. I planned to get a 921 and add DiscoveryHD (and the occasional HD PPV), and eventually a 5xx.
> 
> What about this am I "not getting"?


I'm sorry, *xgrep*, but what you are not "getting" is that E* is in the TV _programming_ business. If all they are getting out of you is a couple of bucks a month for an occasional PPV you don't count for much with them. Their profit (after some time due to customer aquisition costs) is in the ATxx & premium movie packages. (LILs & INTLs are a break-even or loss used to attract customers for ATxx sales.)

Indeed, Part of the DVR fee scenario is to promote programming upgrades (from AT50 to At100 & from AT150 to AEP). It's not any different with DirecTV.

If you're intested in a PVR/DVR but don't want fees you better grab a 508 while you can get one. And if you don't intend to get AT50 or AT100 you're probably going to eat the $999 + fees on a 921.

Too bad for you but you are not a typical E* customer and you aren't the kind of customer they really care about.


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## Mark Holtz

spanishannouncetable said:


> You didn't mention that the HDVR2 is available straight from Directv for $159 + s&h.
> 
> Just call 1-800-DIRECTV and use the offer code FFDVR :coolglass


I went strictly with the consumer sites. I didn't include Dish's 508 promotion as well.

And, any DirecTV receiver has to be activated for one year of programming at Total Choice or above.


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## xgrep

HTguy said:


> [...] I am absolutely sure that you won't have to pay $999 for a 921 + monthly fees [...]


I would have to agree with you 100% on this, though I believe they could make their money elsewhere.



> Too bad for you but you are not a typical E* customer and you aren't the kind of customer they really care about.


I realize that you're at least partly right about this, but only partly. I'm at the far low end of the scale, but there are people at every point in between. The "big" existing customers (people with AEP and similar large packages) will fare well in this deal. The smaller you are, the worse you'll do. Some percentage of people who spend more than me, but not AEP, will be annoyed to some extent, and will be drawn away by a competitor. Perhaps they've done all the math and this is what they were figuring.

But given that I'm the kind of existing customer you'd think they'd want to attract more business from, they've really done very little on this score. I've seen virtually no free AT50 or anything else (once in 4 years, in fact) to entice me to upgrade. And now this.

Frankly, this could actually be a reasonable move on their part if they were to now come out and say "ok, we'll make it on a per-account basis, not per-receiver, and for 1 year, it'll be only $4.98, regardless of package, except free for AEP". Then they would look good, and I might actually think twice.

But the die is cast for me. For many reasons (such as faster internet), I'm leaving Dish. I will easily be persuaded to return when it's economically sensible to do so. I have relatively little emotional commitment in this (at least less than some others), and have generally been a very satisfied E* customer. Obviously not one who is important to them, as you have correctly shown.

x


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## xgrep

HTguy said:


> Regardless of when the actual pricing structure of the new DVRs and promotions for them are detailed I am absolutely sure that you won't have to pay $999 for a 921 + monthly fees
> 
> 
> xgrep said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to agree with you 100% on this, though I believe they could make their money elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I misread you. I think it would be great if what you say is true, but I'm not optimistic. I believe the 921 will have the same fee structure as all other DVRs.

x


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## Jacob S

The 921's will because it was said in an email that ALL future DVR's will have a DVR fee.


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## DarrellP

> Too bad for you but you are not a typical E* customer and you aren't the kind of customer they really care about.


This is a really piss-poor attitude. I've been with Dish for 5 1/2 years and have had the mega $$ programming up until recently. I would consider myself a loyal Dish customer, starting with the 3000 and moving up to a 6000 2 1/2 years ago then added a 501 almost 2 years ago. I also bought the 8psk mod when it was on sale last May hoping to pickup the HD Package that has yet to materialize. I will be super pissed if I now have to fork out more $$ for a SuperDish or be required to commit to 1 year of programming to receive a Super Pooper Dish.

The reason I dropped my programming down to the AT50/locals/Encore package is because Dish has had so many price hikes in the last 3 years and I watch so little programming from Dish, it was a waste of money to be throwing at Dish each and every month. In return, Dish is going to treat me like a piece of pond scum and force me to pay $10/month "DVR" fricking fee? I don't think so. TV is nothing but brain rot anyway. I say again, if Dish implements the fee, I am a Dish EX-Customer, I don't need Dish to watch TV.

Thankfully the 6000 will still receive OTA without programming. If Dish ever turns off this feature, I'll really be pissed.


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## xgrep

DarrellP said:


> TV is nothing but brain rot anyway.


I would say this probably makes you not a typical customer, too .

x


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## HTguy

DarrellP said:


> This is a really piss-poor attitude. I've been with Dish for 5 1/2 years and have had the mega $$ programming up until recently. I would consider myself a loyal Dish customer, starting with the 3000 and moving up to a 6000 2 1/2 years ago then added a 501 almost 2 years ago. I also bought the 8psk mod when it was on sale last May hoping to pickup the HD Package that has yet to materialize. I will be super pissed if I now have to fork out more $$ for a SuperDish or be required to commit to 1 year of programming to receive a Super Pooper Dish.
> 
> The reason I dropped my programming down to the AT50/locals/Encore package is because Dish has had so many price hikes in the last 3 years and I watch so little programming from Dish, it was a waste of money to be throwing at Dish each and every month. In return, Dish is going to treat me like a piece of pond scum and force me to pay $10/month "DVR" fricking fee? I don't think so. TV is nothing but brain rot anyway. I say again, if Dish implements the fee, I am a Dish EX-Customer, I don't need Dish to watch TV.
> 
> Thankfully the 6000 will still receive OTA without programming. If Dish ever turns off this feature, I'll really be pissed.


It's not personal, Darrell. It's business.

It doesn't matter what equipment you already have or what you get or don't get in the future because they aren't in the dbs equipment business any more than your local "cable company" is in the wire business.

There will be DVR fees with the 921. If you don't want any of the AT Pak channels you may not get any deal on it either. So why not just forget about the 921 & use your 6000 for HDs?


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## jcrash

angiodan said:


> I am f*&^in pissed!
> 
> I can't believe this s$%t when I first read it.
> 
> I don't know what else to say. If the 921 and 522 do end up having the fees, then Charlie can take his DVR's and Superdish, and shove them up his ass.
> 
> Waiting for over a year and a half for the 921, being called "Stan" on the tech chat, being told we have lots of extra cash to spend on HDTV so no big deal to buy the Superdish, and now this.
> 
> Un-F*@#$'ing believable!
> 
> PS. My apologies for my language, I know we are a family forum, but you wouldn't have wanted to hear what I was really saying as I scrolled through this thread.


I've subscribed for over 5 years. I've owned the first JVC DVHS, a Dishplayer, a 4000, a 508 and a 721.

I agree with this poster completely. I was going to be purchasing a 921 as soon as it came out, as I'll be purchasing an HDTV within the next couple months. If I am to pay $15/month just to park his receiver in my house, I can think of a much better place to park that receiver.


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## ocnier

Still HT Guy when you know your the no. 1 at being the no. 2 in this business then you know your an underdog. Well, a underdog makes concessions and acts accordingly in order to be no. 1. It's just common sense. 
Point 1
The underdog doesn't charge a per receiver fee ABOVE its competition.
(I don't care how ya look at it, it's just plain crazy)
Point 2
The underdog doesn't either charge a fee or the same fee for a OS that is clearly not up to the caliber of its competition. (I mean if R&D costs are so freakin high then at minimum charge a lesser DVR fee.... like $.99, $1.99, $2.50... etc at least then your still maintain braggin rights over the competition. It's just a logical train of thought)

I mean come on, I think Charlie truly has overestimated the customer's threshold of pain in terms of monthly bill. This is just insanity especially since the PVR market has been growing steadily albeit slowly in the past 5 years.


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## HTguy

ocnier said:


> I mean come on, I think Charlie truly has overestimated the customer's threshold of pain in terms of monthly bill. This is just insanity especially since the PVR market has been growing steadily albeit slowly in the past 5 years.


I don't think you have picked up on the fact that this is a marketing plan to greatly increase the number of new subscribers who get a DVR.

In the past, many new custs were interested in the technology but didn't want to pay so much for the hardware. Some of them came back later & did spend the money to upgrade.

Now any new customer can get the DVR for free & pay a monthly fee comperable to DirecTivo. This is going to drive millions of new customers to get a free DVR from E*.


> I agree with this poster completely. I was going to be purchasing a 921 as soon as it came out, as I'll be purchasing an HDTV within the next couple months. If I am to pay $15/month just to park his receiver in my house, I can think of a much better place to park that receiver.


 The only way you could spend $15mo is if you don't subscribe to _any_ qualifying program package. That would mean paying the $5 access fee on top of a $10 DVR fee.

It's hard to believe that you would buy a DVR921 to do that even at the reduced price. Maybe _you_ should consider the HD DirecTivo whenever it comes out because you would save $5mo if that's what you intend to do. Of course, by then, you will probaly miss out on some HD channels, too.


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## jrbdmb

HTguy said:


> I am confident that when they address the concept of DVR fees on this & future Charlie Chats, which, of course, are directed to existing customers, *they will explain the lowering of the equipment costs that the fees make possible.*
> 
> I wouldn't be real surprised if they only discuss it in general terms Monday because 522s & 921s are some time away and 508s & 721s are still around.
> 
> Regardless of when the actual pricing structure of the new DVRs and promotions for them are detailed I am absolutely sure that you won't have to pay $999 for a 921 + monthly fees unless you run out & buy the first one you can find.


From today's retailer chat ...


> The new promotion I will pass on is THE DISH DVR UPGRADE effective August 24 through January 31 2004. DISH DVR upgrade (for existing customers prior to November 15,2002).
> 
> The DISH DVR 510 will replace the 501/508 offer.
> 
> -----Just $199 with:--------
> ----------1 YEAR commitment to AT100 or higher-----------
> -----------Enrollment in Credit Card Autopay-----------


So the deal on the 510 is exactly the same as the current deal on the 508, except you get to pay the $5 or $10/mo. DVR fee.

What were you smoking when you wrote the above??


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## heyyrob

I was going to switch to dish from directv when the 921 came out but looks like iam not now!! Are you listening dishnetwork??


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## HTguy

jrbdmb said:


> From today's retailer chat ...
> So the deal on the 510 is exactly the same as the current deal on the 508, except you get to pay the $5 or $10/mo. DVR fee.
> 
> What were you smoking when you wrote the above??


 :sure:

Just Marlboro Lites.

Yeh, I am surprised that the new "enhanced" promo is with the same terms. (You may be shocked to learn that I have been wrong on occasion before, too.)

Still, anybody who doesn't want the fees can get a 508 before 8/31 and may find it practical to buy one, if available, after that to save them.

I still don't think any existing custs were waiting for a 510 anyway. You'd have to have a special reason to get it for AT50, too. Maybe for sports on ESPN or something.


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## HTguy

> The only way you could spend $15mo is if you don't subscribe to any qualifying program package. That would mean paying the $5 access fee on top of a $10 DVR fee.


 Actually, I was wrong here, too, but nobody caught me. If you add a 921 to an acct that's AT50 or less there will be a $9.99 DVR fee + a $4.99 additional outlet fee. That's pretty close to $15mo.

:blush:


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## Mark Holtz

Anyone know when the next retailer chat is? Are there any retailers who are going to confused? And, who the heck is in charge of marketing? "DishPlayer DVR 510".


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## Jacob S

If someone had two or more DVR receivers then it would not make much sense to pay an extra $5 per receiver for the DVR fee (a total of $10 more) when you can get the top 100 for only $9 more. Dish wants an x amount of money out of you one way or another, they want to be guaranteed a certain amount, whether its a higher programming package or more for the DVR fee.


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## Guest

jrbdmb said:


> The new promotion I will pass on is THE DISH DVR UPGRADE effective August 24 through January 31 2004. DISH DVR upgrade (for existing customers prior to November 15,2002).
> 
> The DISH DVR 510 will replace the 501/508 offer.
> 
> -----Just $199 with:--------
> ----------1 YEAR commitment to AT100 or higher-----------
> -----------Enrollment in Credit Card Autopay-----------


Just thought I would throw my $.02 in.. I called the other day, because my 2nd TiVo 60 hour receiver died. I've had 2 TiVo's in a little over 2 years, and they both died, so I thought I'd try the 510. I just purchased mine for $99.00. Here were my choices...

Reman'd DP-301 $ 69.00 w/90 day warranty
New DP-301 $ 99.00 w/1 year warranty
New DVR-510 $ 99.00 w/1 year warranty
New DVR-522 $249.00 w/1 year warranty

The gentleman that I ordered the equip. from said this is the promo deal for current customers. I have only had my DP setup for about 6 months now, and I got the deal.


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## Mike Richardson

They offered you a 522 for sale? They're not normally supposed to do that.


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## ajiva

I would just like to point out that I got my DVR-510 for free. I called up and they said that if I committed to 2 years of AT50 (what I have), and pay the $5/month fee I get my DVR-510 for free. I had to return my old receiver (an ancient 2700), but heck that works for me! Now I just have to hand out one ClubDISH coupon and even the $5/month will be waived (well for a year). Deals are out there, you just have to look


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## SoonerDude

ajiva said:


> I would just like to point out that I got my DVR-510 for free. I called up and they said that if I committed to 2 years of AT50 (what I have), and pay the $5/month fee I get my DVR-510 for free. I had to return my old receiver (an ancient 2700), but heck that works for me! Now I just have to hand out one ClubDISH coupon and even the $5/month will be waived (well for a year). Deals are out there, you just have to look


did they require that they install it for you, or did they send you the receiver? I tried a couple of months ago to get them to send me the PVR and they said they had to come install it for me, all I needed to do was swap out my current reciever w/ the 510. I work long hours and am not home during their install times and couldn't be home for them to do the install so I decided not to get it for the time being.


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## scooper

I took advantage of the the free "replacement" DVR510 offer (also sent in my 2700). Dish shipped it to my place - no install necessary. simply disconnect the 2700, and put the 510 inits place.


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## Throwbot

I'm getting sick.
Listen up E* I was excited about the 921 but now all these extras are making me sick!
Rupert M must be laughing all the way to the bank.
If I ever do get my 921 I'm going from E* to Ebay!


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