# AT9 (KaKu 5 LNB) Comparison



## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Some basics first ...

The purpose of this single dish is to capture the 99°W, 101°W, 103°W, 110°W, and 119°W

The Manufacturer of the KaKu 5 LNB dish.

WCN builds a KaKu 5LNB dish --- (Model # AT9) <-- this is where the AT9 came from.
Spec on WCN AT9 (28.7 x 24.4)
http://www.wneweb.com/Satcom/satcom1.htm

Cal Amp builds a KaKu 5 LNB dish for D*
http://www.calamp.com/pro_dbs.html

Andrew builds a KaKu 5 LNB dish for D*
http://www.andrew.com/products/antennas/

No manufacture has yet to publish a spec with regards to dish "gain" However, I would expect that the "gain" would be the same as the 46cm (18") dish.


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Cap'n Preshoot said:


> ... In the meantime if someone else can do a similar comparison, comparing the signal levels from a properly aligned AT9 on the 101 bird to the same signal from a standard 18" round dish, *at the same site using the same receiver* we might be able to start building a case against the desirability (or advisability) of having the AT9, particularly in those areas where OTA reception is available.


Here is a comparison of a Andrews KaKu 5 LNB vs Winegard 46cm (18')

All other equipment is the sames.








-









Before with 46 cm (18") < ---------------------------> Now with Ka Ku (5LNB AT9)

Now, I expected to see and increase in signal on the Sat test on the R-15, but here is what I got.








-








Before with 46 cm (18") < ---------------------------> Now with Ka Ku (5LNB AT9)

Lower signal reading.


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## tds4182 (Jul 17, 2003)

scott T said:


> Here is a comparison of a Andrews KaKu 5 LNB vs Winegard 46cm (18')
> 
> All other equipment is the sames.
> 
> ...


I assume you're using an H20 receiver to make the comparison.

It's important to remember that the average signal readings on the H20 hooked up to the AT9 dish will be ~20 points lower than on other receivers, all other things being equal. This would explain the lower readings that you are getting.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Are you getting less signal drops though?


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

scott T said:


> Now, I expected to see and increase in signal on the *Sat test on the R-15*, but here is what I got.
> .


All readings were taken with a R-15-300. D*'s new DVR Plus.


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Are you getting less signal drops though?


When I conducted my "water hose test" Can be found in this thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=60752

The signal drop was similar.


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Here are my thoughts&#8230;

The LNB footprint on both the 46cm (18') and the 5 LNB KaKu dish are very close. The biggest challenge for a dish designer is to build a single dish that could see all 5 bird and be installed anywhere in the USA. The only adjustment on the KaKu (AT9) dish for USA location is position 1,2,3 for the 110°W, 119°W

http://s94765130.onlinehome.us/110_119_LNB_zone_setting.pdf

I don't feel that it would ever be possible to peek every LNB on a multi-dish like you could if you had five single dishes. Now, it's a little unreasonable for a homeowner to install five 46cm dishes on their house. Heck, you'll look like a sports bar.

So there are trade offs. Get real close on 5 birds and have one dish. Or some kind of hybrid system like "Cap'n Preshoot"

You can see his here &#8230;
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=61238

My bet, the 46cm (18") will always have strong signals than the KaKu dish when tuned for all 5 birds.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I just don't know what is wrong with your installation...
Or it just could be the angle you are coming from (which shouldn't be too different then mine)

Those massive massive massive massive storms (where talking hail and tornados, with the warning sirens gonig) that we had last thursday, knocked my non-local signals out for about 5 minutes (i never lost my locals)

I have the AT9.... and this was the first time I had a signal loss in 7+ months (had the install early January)


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have the AT9.... and this was the first time I had a signal loss in 7+ months (had the install early January)


I'll admit, I have only had one rain fade since the AT9 was intalled. You'll see the radar in this thread. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=60557 However, I haven't had any real big rain either.

The point to the thread is not to solve my rain fade issue. I created this thread to help us understand the KaKu dish better. Only WCN has published a spec and it still has no "gain" information on it.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Hmmmmm.... from what I can see, unless there is compelling programming that I want to watch on the Ka birds, I will hold off for a little while, and see what upcoming generations will bring. Right now, it appears to be HDTV programming, but I don't have a HDTV and have no plans at present to purchase said set. 

Besides, according to the map, I'm on the border for Zone 2/3 (Sacramento, CA). So, which is it?


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

AT9 Multi-Sat Dish Performance Issues?

I think I may have made a startling discovery Sunday afternoon Jul 30 while trying to align or peak-in one of the new 5-LNB Multi-Sat dishes. The new *AT9* dish from DirecTV to be exact.

Like some of you I had been reading several others' posts here and in other forums about an unusual amount of rain fade complaints mostly from new customers. Upon closer reading there seemed to be a pattern developing. Not only were they mostly new customers, but in seemingly all cases the folks complaining all had the new AT9 multi-sat dish.

There's nothing new or unusual about rain fade. It happens, but usually only during the stronger storms (yellow & red radar images) and virtually never during the lighter storms. Basically either a big storm has to be in the path of the signal or it has to be raining cats & dogs to cause signal dropout due to rain fade. Now all of a sudden we're hearing about minor light rain causing signal loss? What's going on?

Next I read about folks with the new H20 (High def) receivers reporting significantly lower signal levels (levels literally down in the 70s). I found that extremely strange because my own H20 was reporting signal levels in the 90s and a couple 100s with only 2 transponders in the 80s. H-20s only capable of signal levels in the 70s? Nonsense!

The difference we discovered was the folks reporting signals in the 70s were using the new AT9 dish and I wasn't. Although I had one of the new AT9s, I was using the Winegard DS3101 1-meter (big) single sat dish to drag in the 101 along with my own spot beam locals and diplexing with an OTA yagi to get my local HD signals. My new AT9 was there, but not really being used yet.

My new H-20 receiver was reporting signal levels in the mid to upper 90s and everyone elses was reporting signals in the 70s. Okay yes, the big Winegard DS3101 is real performer, but we're talking about signal level differences of 20 points. As good as the Winegard dish is, it's not *that* good! I switched my A/B switch over to the AT9 and suddenly saw the crappy signal levels folks are complaining about. Something's wrong here.

Time for some tests.

With a neighbor's help we found an old 18" single LNB dish and a 3' tripod he used when he went camping. I had a couple extra 100' bundles of RG6 coax and knew where I could lay my hands on a Drake TSM 1000A satellite meter. First up on the roof I did some checking of the AT9 dish alignment and then spent about 30 minutes peaking it in on the 101 sat. Back downstairs to take some signal strength measurements on the new H-20 receiver. Just concentrating on the 101 bird and transponder #1 we obtained a signal reading of 84 (a bit better than it had been prior to tweaking).

*Here's where the plot thickens.* Next we set up the tripod with the old 18" dish in the driveway and used the Drake meter to line it up on the 101 satellite. Then with 100' of coax connected we dragged the cable inside and hooked it to the back of the H-20 and then went back to the setup screens to take another signal strength reading. Surprise, but suspected, the old 18" dish outperformed the new AT9 by a whopping 8 points. Sat 1 transponder #1 now reads 92.

We switched the coax cables back and forth a couple more times to be sure, but every time the single LNB 18" dish not only outperformed the AT9, but did so in Spades. In the words of my neighbor, "it kicked the AT9's ass!"

*More evidence* Next we did the same comparison but this time checked signal levels on the 119 satellite. On the 119 the new AT9 dish (without additional tweaking) was the winner by a very slim margin and the signals from both dishes were in the upper 90s. The AT9 had about a 1 or 2 point advantage over the old 18" dish. Okay, now that makes sense. The AT9 is physically larger so you would pretty much expect a better signal.

So what's wrong with the AT9 and signals from the 101? The new AT9 seems to work quite well on the 119 sat but only marginally on the 101 sat. Something's fishy here.

Is that what's going on? Is that what's causing or contributing to the sudden flurry of rain fade complaints? Since most of the regular programming is on the main beam (101) it stands to reason that a reception problem with the 101 would spawn a lot of complaints.

I realize all this is very unscientific, but it would seem to suggest the possibility of a problem with the main combo LNB unit on the new AT9.

Hopefully we can get some more comparisons from others who have access to a couple of dishes who can repeat these tests and share their results.

Cap'n P.


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

tds4182 said:


> I assume you're using an H20 receiver to make the comparison.
> 
> It's important to remember that the average signal readings on the H20 hooked up to the AT9 dish will be ~20 points lower than on other receivers, all other things being equal. This would explain the lower readings that you are getting.


Don't confuse the issue.
Our concern is that the *same receiver* looking at the *101 bird* when connected to the *AT9* displays significantly lower signal readings than it does when looking at the 101 bird from a single LNB dish.

*However, when looking at signals from the 119 sat, the AT9 seems to perform competitively with a single-sat dish.*

Ergo the issue. The AT9's LNB for the 101 seems to suck.

In other words:
1) SAME RECEIVER (H20)
2) 101 BIRD
3) AT9 compare to 18" single LNB dish
4) the AT9 loses big

*BUT*

1) SAME RECEIVER (H20)
2) 119 BIRD
3) AT9 compare to 18" single LNB dish
4) This time the AT9 wins 

I tried, I really did, but couldn't explain it any clearer than that.


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## D-Bamatech (Jun 28, 2006)

IMHO and tangible experience this Is Not ALL there is to this mix either.

You CAN go to Any other new production IRD in the Same home @ time of install and "watch the 101 RISE" by viewing sig on a diff STANDARD IRD in the next Room.. Same AT-9 > (1) h-20 sig = ______ (1) standard ird sig str= ______.

There's a combo effect here.

Captain.. "your the captain"> what you did & discovered yesterday well.......IS THE *FACT* !

Your also QUITE right about the 119. pegs out every time! 110 is moderate.. 101 SUX and any network 99/103 is just fine.

Where does the DTV audience look for their most viewe programs?... he he !101!...

(go turn those brass nuts 2 more turns on the bottom side and see what happens.. he he..= BIG POP noise . If ANY body gets a inclination here to tweak their AT-9 DO NOT use any of the fine adjustment mechanisms (2).. Your asking for trouble..Pop goes the weasle if ya dont know what your doing. Ive never scene such CHEAP hardware on ANY dish period. Worse than magnesium on a Honda moto-crosser. !)


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## D-Bamatech (Jun 28, 2006)

Hey i see one of you has a winstrom and one has andrew. Well theres ya ANOTHER thing to wonder. From my experiences the ANDREWS WILL produce a HIGHER sig reading than the Winstrom(On the 110 anyway). Ive nevr had the opportunity to install a California Amplifier AT-9 yet.. BUT i can tell you this that that IS the Best DTV dish /lnb manufactorer that DTV HAS EVER USED IMHO. So i Just bet that one(Cal AMP) May be better if history holds true (California amp has produces the BEST lnb's). My common installed is the Winstrom though with the nominal 80's sig.

Another thing. Look on the Center Lnb attachment spot (2 small bolt nut atytachment points). You WILL see (3) small holes to route the bolts through.

Well each of these holes is designed to go With the ZONE of the country you are in. Here in the southeast We use the center hole. SO..Something else to look at . Find the Zone map and see if "yall" are set to the proper "hole" per the "zone hole" DTV dictates.

hmmmmmm..

Whoops.. type before read AGAIN.. i see Scott already knows about the "3 holes".. he he


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

The WNC version of the AT9 is made in China.
Simply based on my own experiences with it, my opinion is the 101 (main) LNB on this dish is a POS.

Signal levels on 101 with the WNC version of the AT9 are, on the basis of my own tests, unacceptably poor but signals from the 119 sat with the same dish are quite good. I don't know what's wrong with 101 reception with this dish, but something sure seems to be.

There is nothing wrong with the alignment or installation. There is something wrong with the dish. A plain-vanilla 18" dish will outperform the AT9 on reception of the 101 sat.

My opinion is there are going to be lots of complaints of rain fade from customers trying to watch programming on the 101 sat with this antenna if theirs is anything like mine.


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## carrot (Aug 3, 2006)

So if you put a 10 db amp in the line the signal level will rise!

And if you put a 10db amp in line do you think the rain fade margin will be better?

How about a 20db amp? An easy way to get 100's? Like "11" in Spinal Tap?

Higher signal level at the receiver does not automatically equal better rain fade margin (though it often all other things being equal but they are not here).

Higher signal to LNB noise ratio measured at the receiver input is much more critical and unless you know the noise AND gain characteristics of the LNB you don't know enough.


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

carrot said:


> So if you put a 10 db amp in the line the signal level will rise!
> 
> And if you put a 10db amp in line do you think the rain fade margin will be better?
> 
> ...


The amp will increase the signal level but it will not increase the signal to noise ratio, hence garbage in equates to garbage out, only more of it. If the signal is not there to amplify (as in rain fade) then no amount of amplification will change that. You must first have signal in order to amplify it.

What we're trying to tell you here is there's something wrong with the 101 LNB on the AT9 dish.


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

I have ordered a 76cm (30") dish.  I am having it professionally installed and aligned next Tuesday. (Cap - :nono: I know, I know you wouldn't give 75¢ for that dish, but I just did not want to go to the 1m for and extra 2.15 dBi of gain) I will take reading before he removes the AT9 and then after the Winegard 76cm goes up. Any thing else I should capture?


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

scott T said:


> I have ordered a 76cm (30") dish.  I am having it professionally installed and aligned next Tuesday. (Cap - :nono: I know, I know you wouldn't give 75¢ for that dish, but I just did not want to go to the 1m for and extra 2.15 dBi of gain) I will take reading before he removes the AT9 and then after the Winegard 76cm goes up. Any thing else I should capture?


Given your excellent lcation and reasonable obscurity, I would not hesitate for an eyeblink to put the 1-meter dish there, and 2.15 dbi is almost half power that you're sacrificing by using a dish that's only 10" smaller (in dia) but hey, that's you're decision. It's bound to be an improvement.

Ask your installer if (s)he has a steady-tone oscillator type meter that provides a steady linear TONE rather than "stepped" or a visual indicator meter. In other words, what some techs call a whiner, i.e., as in a siren. These don't tell you what bird you're looking at, but make it extremely easy to pinpoint the exact maximum signal peak and to hold that peak while tightening things down. If after tightening-down you can flex the dish up/down/left/right and hear any increase in the tone frequency, then you're not on peak. You want that sucker *dead-on*.

Yes, by all means let us know the results.

CPS


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Cap'n Preshoot said:


> Ask your installer if (s)he has a steady-tone oscillator type meter that provides a steady linear TONE rather than "stepped" or a visual indicator meter. In other words, what some techs call a whiner, i.e., as in a siren. These don't tell you what bird you're looking at, but make it extremely easy to pinpoint the exact maximum signal peak and to hold that peak while tightening things down. If after tightening-down you can flex the dish up/down/left/right and hear any increase in the tone frequency, then you're not on peak. You want that sucker *dead-on*. CPS


The last three times he used a "birdog". Is that the sames as a "whiner"? I would hope that the Birdog is good, it carrys a ~$400 price tag. If that's not what your talking about, help me understand the differences between the birdog and a "whiner"


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

scott T said:


> The last three times he used a "birdog". Is that the sames as a "whiner"? I would hope that the Birdog is good, it carrys a ~$400 price tag. If that's not what your talking about, help me understand the differences between the birdog and a "whiner"


I've used a Birddog and wasn't impressed with it. It maxes out at 100% and then says locked. That's all well and good but it might not give you the maximim peak. In other words you could hit 100% but not be on the true signal peak. You want that sucker dead-on. Make sure the installer knows that. It the Birddog tops out at 100% ask the installer if he has a 10 or 20 db pad he can put inline with it to keep the signal off 100% while aligning. A "whiner" is just like it sounds. Steady ascending and descending tone, not stair-stepped.


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Cap'n Preshoot said:


> Make sure the installer knows that. It the Birddog tops out at 100% ask the installer if he has a 10 or 20 db pad he can put inline with it to keep the signal off 100% while aligning.


Got ya. Thanks


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

By the way, I only used a BirdDog once, so I'm not qualified to extol it's various functions. For that price it could well have a calibrated pad built in.

But having used both, I personally prefer the Drake TSM 1000A meter. Old technology for sure and bigger and heavier and doesn't have a digital display and won't tell you you're looking at the 101 or 119 or whatever like the BD does, but if you know where the bird is, (azimuth & elevation method) it will doggone sure let you find the peak signal lobe in short order. (it also lets you align your ota antenna)

The D* installer from DirectTech that originally installed my AT9 used a BD on it. Then last weekend when we were screwing around with various signal tests I used the Drake to check and "touch-up" his work. Using the Drake we managed to bring the 101 signal up almost 4 points (on the H20) from where he had it originally.

In fact I found the AT9 dish actually quite easy to align, in spite of the fact that's it's otherwise slightly hard of hearing on the 101. Make dang sure it's absolutely-positively dead level plumb then peak it in on the 101 then adjust the skew with the 18v and 22 Khz buttons on the Drake pushed to grab the 119. In spite of 5 LNBs the AT9 is easier (quicker) to align than the 3-LNB dish. I tried the "fine" adjustment screws, but couldn't improve on what I achieved with "coarse" adjustments. That again is the advantage of an audible 'whiner' as opposed to the BD. Maybe that's why they want the tech to use the fine adjusters and deliberately swing the dish back & forth through their peak for equal null readings. Providing of course that the installer does that step then the BirdDog should in fact result in a perfect peak. Problem is not many installers will do that step because it takes extra time and they've done so many of them they become over confident about their skills *and apathetic* about the customer's need to have a properly aligned dish. These installer-guys aren't "technicians" at all and wouldn't make a pimple on a real tech backside. The ones I've seen 99% of them are little more than trained monkeys or highschool dropouts working for slightly more than minimum wage. What's that tell you?


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## Claus (Nov 20, 2005)

In the Ka/Ku install training they mentioned a dead zone when you peak a small consumer dish that can have upwards of +/- .5 degree range where a Birdog, whiner, spectrum analyzer, etc will not show any change in level as you move the dish back and forth. The AT9 type dishes have to be pointed to something like +/- .05 degree or about 1/10 the accuracy that you can get by just peaking for the strongest signal. That's what the fancy pull the pin and wig-wag the mount is for on the AT9, it gets you to the +/-.05 degree required accuracy. If you didn't use the wig-wag method, you didn't properly peak your AT9. Now go back and do it right you whiner! 
Claus


Cap'n Preshoot said:


> By the way, I only used a BirdDog once, so I'm not qualified to extol it's various functions. For that price it could well have a calibrated pad built in.
> 
> I tried the "fine" adjustment screws, but couldn't improve on what I achieved with "coarse" adjustments. That again is the advantage of an audible 'whiner' as opposed to the BD. Maybe that's why they want the tech to use the fine adjusters and deliberately swing the dish back & forth through their peak for equal null readings. Providing of course that the installer does that step then the BirdDog should in fact result in a perfect peak. Problem is not many installers will do that step because it takes extra time and they've done so many of them they become over confident about their skills *and apathetic* about the customer's need to have a properly aligned dish. These installer-guys aren't "technicians" at all and wouldn't make a pimple on a real tech backside. The ones I've seen 99% of them are little more than trained monkeys or highschool dropouts working for slightly more than minimum wage. What's that tell you?


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

I think you could probably spend a whole afternoon dinking with that thing and still never get your 101 LNB performance up to anywhere close to what the 119 is. And that's not because the 119 is a hotter bird. It's only 'cause the AT9's 101 LNB is stone deaf... at least mine is. I'm not impressed (whine...whine...) :rant: :rant:


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## D-Bamatech (Jun 28, 2006)

Lmao @ capt. Your funny BUT full OF knowledge with a tenure to back that up = Much respect and sincerely said with diction!

The installer vs technician description... well i couldnt have said it better.

Btw i was "enlightened" yesterday(insider info) that the forceful cust dictation to the HSP for service MAY be changing (LMAO as "the war" continues.. Who said Goliath couldnt be taken down by "david"!). "WE" WILL prevail. No matter what it takes. You guys (cust) soon "may" have a choice and NOT have to deal with what is dictated to your home. Thus you can have a Technician Instead of some kid paid like a rat "called an installer". No further details CAN be elaborated on .. but i thought id share a tidbit.. (wink). March on "david" and Fall you crooked lieing deceptive Goliath! I hope honestly to see *JAIL time for "some" before this is over also in its process. Fed's arent playing this time ya know & "WE" have a miltia of our own in this fight and war of 2 yrs!

Scott where did ya get the dish? Direct order from 'my places" OR ____?
Btw i told ya i was putting in what ya wanted yesterday.. .. . Sory i couldnt be of more help.. But i explained with the Boycott involved and the "dance" of rightousness in this process. I hope ya understood. = Like i said to the forum .. you guys have No clue whats going on. Dtv installations is SELF IMPLODING before your eyes and the victum is NO other than you guys the customer. These ratio numbers "i got a hold of yesterday" well.. lmao.. ITS pittiful. profitable to me? .. Yes.. But as since of JUST.. just dead wrong and in many instances pure lawlessness. There are quite the investigations and offencives in progress (and have been) to stop the insanity with racketeering at its root.

BTW capt.. i STILL say a B-dog is for P****'s! LOL.. But then again thats what "they" give the Kids as some form of safety that they can find what they "think they're loking for"lol.

A inclometer and skill is the REAL techs friend not some screen display saying "locked" lmao JUST AS *YOU described= whiner vs Bdog ect ect). Oh and that Guy who posted under you.. Well (lol) ask him who he works for.. he he.. Training film and the fine adjustment noise gave it away to me ya know.. That fine adjustment is for idiots and the poorest form of dish manufactoring EVER on any dish made since 1995 and DBS inception. Both fine adjustments are for the wanna be's IMO and a real Tech doesnt need or use them period. I need my inclometer.. the whiner.. and ME.. lmao. (the torpedo level is key too .. he he)
I dont think He knew who is was talking to when he made that comment.. Now did he capt.? You can do more in your sleep than 90% of any DTv tech in this country id like to think.. he he.. I dont even have to ask another question either. You stapled yourself to this Old technician ya know.

And you are quite correct on the 101/AT-9 noise too. It WILL NOT get anybetter No matter what ya do. ITS JUNK!! Heck i got better yesterday on a AMC-4 FTA on a 90 cm Geosat with a linear LNB to a weak signal and sig quality than that circular polarity AT-9 101.. So you tell me its not Junk!. (AT-9 101 config). Im hands on with ya on that for sure .


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

Saw a discussion today over in one of the HD forums here on DBSTalk where a guy *bought* an H20 earlier in the year and has been running it with a triple-LNB dish. He's interested in working some kind of deal with D* Retention to get them to give him an AT9.

I didn't show my hand, but I did ask him to go into his setup menu and jot down the TP readings on the 101 now, before he gets his AT9 and then do it again afterwards and let me know the results.


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Cap'n Preshoot said:


> ... I did ask him to go into his setup menu and jot down the TP readings on the 101 now, before he gets his AT9 and then do it again afterwards and let me know the results.


Folks,
We must stick together on this one. While D* should have done some of this testing for themselves, the vendor should have pointed out the drawback of incorporating 3 LNB into one package. I'm assuming that they didn't disclose or discover, because D* should not have accepted such test results as acceptable. God only knows what the Slimline will produce (5 LNB in one package)

I'm no expert on this issue, but since most channels come from the 101; you would think that the 101 should be the primary concern and strongest source out of the three. I believe we are finding that the 101 is the loser in the "top of the line" 5 LNB KaKu dish.

People with D* may start looking like E*; with two dishes on the houses. I will report my finding before and after the 76cm is installed next Tuesday.



D-Bamatech said:


> Scott where did ya get the dish? Direct order from 'my places" OR ____?


perfect-10.tv I found somebody to order it for me.

Boy, what will we do when we find the solution for this issue? ... Watch TV?


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

scott T said:


> People with D* may start looking like E*; with two dishes on the houses.


*Only two?? Why not 3?*
Left to right, 101, 110, 119


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Cap'n Preshoot said:


> *Only two?? Why not 3?*
> Left to right, 101, 110, 119


OK Cap, it's starting to look like a sports bar. :lol:

I bet you have better signal reading, huh


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Cap'n Preshoot said:


> *Only two?? Why not 3?*
> Left to right, 101, 110, 119


I typed too fast. What happen to the POS (AT9)? :lol:

How did you tie that into the multi-switch?


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## kitzi (Aug 5, 2006)

I'm not that person, and I didn't write them down, but prior to putting in the AT9 my H20 had signal strength of 10 to 20 less than either my d10 or hdtivo and after the AT9 was installed the results are the same...on the hdtivo my signals are between 95-100 and on the h20 they are between 75 and 90...for whatever that's worth...



Cap'n Preshoot said:


> Saw a discussion today over in one of the HD forums here on DBSTalk where a guy *bought* an H20 earlier in the year and has been running it with a triple-LNB dish. He's interested in working some kind of deal with D* Retention to get them to give him an AT9.
> 
> I didn't show my hand, but I did ask him to go into his setup menu and jot down the TP readings on the 101 now, before he gets his AT9 and then do it again afterwards and let me know the results.


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## tomcat11 (Aug 5, 2006)

It seems to me that using one dish to pick up 5 sat's is going to be a compromise at best. after spending considerable time with my at9 trying different tweeks I have gone with the procedure called for in the installation manual and training video using an acutrac22 pro signal meter but with a very slight tweek to maximize the ka's. The bell curve for the ka sat's is much narrower than with the ku sat's therefore signal strength on the ka's will drop off much more quickly with misalignment compared to the ku's. In the end I think you have to give up something on the ku's to be peaked on the ka's which in my opinion is the best compromise.

Tomcat


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

tomcat11 said:


> It seems to me that using one dish to pick up 5 sat's is going to be a compromise at best. after spending considerable time with my at9 trying different tweeks I have gone with the procedure called for in the installation manual and training video using an acutrac22 pro signal meter but with a very slight tweek to maximize the ka's. The bell curve for the ka sat's is much narrower than with the ku sat's therefore signal strength on the ka's will drop off much more quickly with misalignment compared to the ku's. In the end I think you have to give up something on the ku's to be peaked on the ka's which in my opinion is the best compromise.
> 
> Tomcat


The bell curve of the Ka sats is steeper because of the higher frequency of Ka (20 Ghz) vs Ku (12 Ghz) and the much longer focal length between the reflector surface and the LNB for a given frequency (and therefore narrowing the beamwidth (good), but making precise alignment (on the Ka sats) all the more critical - and difficult - bad)

Ergo we could theorize that when someone finally posts the gain figures for the AT9 that it may well show as much as 5 db or more higher performance on Ka sats than on the Ku sats (only a guess on my part). Whenever we have a large capture surface area (dish diameter) we achieve optimum antenna performance if we're able to focus all of that captured signal onto the LNB. Ergo, the bigger the dish, the farther distance away the reflector from the LNB. Moving the LNB closer to the reflector makes the dish much easier to align, but you lose signal.

Best way I can think to describe it is compare this dish size and focal length thing to the way the popular *Maglight* flashlight works. You want the LNB (the light in this case) to illuminate as much of the total available reflector surface as possible without overspray. Too tightly focused on the center and you loose that portion of signal being reflected by the remainder of the dish that you're not illuminating. Too widely focused and you overshoot the reflector, again losing signal.

Ok, enough antenna theory for today's lesson. 

It is logical that a multi-sat dish with multiple LNBs will never match the performance capability of a setup with individual discreet dishes because of the difficulty of achieving maximum peak alignment on all sats simultaneously. In the lab, perhaps, but not in field conditions with a mass-produced, consumer grade antenna manufactured in China. Best anyone can hope for is a reasonable compromise.

And without seeing the guts of the main (triple-combo) LNB (99-101-103) of the AT9 dish, or being privvy to it's design, it's seemingly lackluster performance on 101 suggest it's a soft-focus design.. i.e., trying to see all 3 sats with one common LNB.

Time to tear one apart...


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

kitzi said:


> I'm not that person, and I didn't write them down, but prior to putting in the AT9 my H20 had signal strength of 10 to 20 less than either my d10 or hdtivo and after the AT9 was installed the results are the same...on the hdtivo my signals are between 95-100 and on the h20 they are between 75 and 90...for whatever that's worth...


But how do those readings from the 101 today on the AT9 compare with what they were before getting the AT9?


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

scott T said:


> I typed too fast. What happen to the POS (AT9)? :lol:
> 
> How did you tie that into the multi-switch?


Well, the triple-sat setup is not our most recent. That's an old photo I just threw at you to make you think. The triple dish setup as pictured was there up until last fall when Hurricane Rita was headed our way, at which time I scurried up onto the roof and took down all that hardware except for the OTA. I wasn't worried about the antennas; it was the chimney I was more interested in saving :lol:

The MultiSwitch was no problem. The 5 X 8 multiswitch is exactly built for that specific setup, 3 dishes and one OTA. Remember, the 101 (Sat-A) is the only sat requiring two LNBs (2 coax cables). The 119 (Sat-B) takes only 1 cable, so does the 110 (Sat-C). We could have brought down a 5th coax for the OTA and fed that directly into the OTA input of the MultiSwitch or simply diplex it into any one of the other 4 coax cables and then reverse-diplex it at the multiswitch, which is what I chose to do because the coax bundle coming into the house was beginning to get a little large.

This is sort of a lossy way to do your OTA, but I'm only 16 miles from the transmitters, so I had tons of available signal.

Since aquiring the AT9 I ran one of the old cables (spared up from the Sat-C dish) straight-in from the OTA antenna to the original MultiSwitch saving approx 6db of loss in the process. Then I ran new (additional) coax lines from there to all my receiver locations.

In that way every receiver location now has two coax cables and can be configured literally at-will to either provide AT9 + separate OTA or stick an A/B switch there to have the big signal from the Winegard DS3101 available (still with OTA). If we want to do the DVR thing then that's covered as well because I can always go to the attic and switch the one cable over to bring down two AT9 feeds (at the expense of losing my OTA signal)

More than likely I'll never need two AT9 feeds to a common location because (so far at least) all of the DVR'ing we do has been to one location with an old stand-alone TIVO series-1 and an old RCA 420 receiver with an IR-blaster. All we have ever been interested in TIVO'ing is to time-shift Jay Leno and to catch an occasional HBO or network special that conflicts with our regular live viewing. We're both in our early 60s, so Leno comes on long past bedtime 

D* wanted to set me up with a new HD DVR but I said no because the old TIVO has a lifetime subscription and no one will transfer that, plus I cannot ever envision wanting to TIVO something that was in HD, at least not until the day comes that everything is in HD.

Now you know.

The moral of this whole story is that presently we're very much disappointed in the performance of the AT9 dish on the 101 bird. Our goal this hurricane season was to get down to 1 satellite dish, but not at the expense of having to start putting up with rain fade. The new AT9 was hyped to us as being *the* dish to have. Alas it would not seem so.


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## D-Bamatech (Jun 28, 2006)

Capt?>You sure ya dont have a PHD in sat distrubution and adhereing signal strength composition ALSO? (check those papers.. ya might have one and paid for it and just dont know it! (chuckle)

Boy im glad smiles dont cost much.. 'cause id owe ya a mint by now !


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## Claus (Nov 20, 2005)

The focal length has nothing to do with how pointy the dish is. Focal length is determined by the F/D ratio of the dish, or the diameter of the dish squared, divided by 16 times the depth of the dish (edge of dish to the lowest point of the reflector surface). This will give you the approximate focal point of the phase center of the LNB feed horn. Finding the phase center of the feed horn is another matter. Depending on the F/D ratio, two dishes of the exact same diameter can have drastically different focal points depending on how deep the dish is, so a bigger dish does not always equate to the LNB being farther away but is does make the dish more pointy due to the extra gain. The AT9 certainly has more gain on Ka over Ku simply because the Ka downlink band is about 65% higher in frequency for the same available reflector area. This would give you about a 3-4dB increase in Ka gain over Ku if the AT9 were a simple dish but it's not and I doubt if they will ever publish the actual AT9 gain specs. Tomcat, how did you give your AT9 a slight tweek on Ka using an Accutrac?
Claus Clan


Cap'n Preshoot;622857 said:


> The bell curve of the Ka sats is steeper because of the higher frequency of Ka (20 Ghz) vs Ku (12 Ghz) and the much longer focal length between the reflector surface and the LNB for a given frequency (and therefore narrowing the beamwidth (good), but making precise alignment (on the Ka sats) all the more critical - and difficult - bad)
> 
> Ergo we could theorize that when someone finally posts the gain figures for the AT9 that it may well show as much as 5 db or more higher performance on Ka sats than on the Ku sats (only a guess on my part). Whenever we have a large capture surface area (dish diameter) we achieve optimum antenna performance if we're able to focus all of that captured signal onto the LNB. Ergo, the bigger the dish, the farther distance away the reflector from the LNB. Moving the LNB closer to the reflector makes the dish much easier to align, but you lose signal.
> 
> ...


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

Claus said:


> The focal length has nothing to do with how pointy the dish is. Focal length is determined by the F/D ratio of the dish, or the diameter of the dish squared, divided by 16 times the depth of the dish (edge of dish to the lowest point of the reflector surface). This will give you the approximate focal point of the phase center of the LNB feed horn. Finding the phase center of the feed horn is another matter. Depending on the F/D ratio, two dishes of the exact same diameter can have drastically different focal points depending on how deep the dish is, so a bigger dish does not always equate to the LNB being farther away but is does make the dish more pointy due to the extra gain. The AT9 certainly has more gain on Ka over Ku simply because the Ka downlink band is about 65% higher in frequency for the same available reflector area. This would give you about a 3-4dB increase in Ka gain over Ku if the AT9 were a simple dish but it's not and I doubt if they will ever publish the actual AT9 gain specs. Tomcat, how did you give your AT9 a slight tweek on Ka using an Accutrac?
> Claus Clan


Thanks Claus for the detailed technicals. It better helps to understand. Like you though I don't think we're apt to see any published specs on the AT9 anytime soon.

Single-band Ka dishes are extremely small. The only two I've seen looked like they were about 8~10" in diameter. If that's the norm then the AT9 would (conceivably) have 4x the capture area of a conventional Ka dish which if true would certainly explain a substantial gain increase for Ka over Ku on the same dish. The only Ka/Ku duo-band dishes with any published specs are big (1.2M and larger) military dishes. On those the Ka specs are approx 5.1 db higher than Ku, which again makes sense.

I'd still like to get my hands on one of the AT9's main LNB assy's to disassemble it just to satsfy my curiosity. I am of the suspicion we might find only one broadband (and hence soft focus) feedhorn inside which would better explain the stinky performance on 101.

I'm not ready to accept that the 101 levels I'm getting are "normal". They might be normal for an AT9, but that still doesn't make it right, especially when taken alongside the very good levels being seen from 119 on the same dish. Something is fishy here.


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## tomcat11 (Aug 5, 2006)

Claus said:


> The focal length has nothing to do with how pointy the dish is. Focal length is determined by the F/D ratio of the dish, or the diameter of the dish squared, divided by 16 times the depth of the dish (edge of dish to the lowest point of the reflector surface). This will give you the approximate focal point of the phase center of the LNB feed horn. Finding the phase center of the feed horn is another matter. Depending on the F/D ratio, two dishes of the exact same diameter can have drastically different focal points depending on how deep the dish is, so a bigger dish does not always equate to the LNB being farther away but is does make the dish more pointy due to the extra gain. The AT9 certainly has more gain on Ka over Ku simply because the Ka downlink band is about 65% higher in frequency for the same available reflector area. This would give you about a 3-4dB increase in Ka gain over Ku if the AT9 were a simple dish but it's not and I doubt if they will ever publish the actual AT9 gain specs. Tomcat, how did you give your AT9 a slight tweek on Ka using an Accutrac?
> Claus Clan


After repeating the set-up procedure several times which included trying pos 2, pos 3, and pos 3 slid over toward pos 2 on the 110/119 LNB (I'm right on the line between zones) and recording transponder signal strengnths which resulted in no improvement, I finally switched the meter to read both 101/13v no 22KHZ tone and 119/13v w/22KHZ tone and adjusted the elevation to maximize the 119 with only 01 drop on some of the 101 transponders.The result was 99-100 (receiver readings) on the 103 on the two out six that are not reading 0's. Although I did not use the meter for 103 persay (misppoke on the earlier post) the net result was higher signal on 119 using the (receiver) and max signal on the 103 (receiver)

I'm no expert by any means but it's working for well for me and the HD is very good. I hope this makes some sense. maybe the experts could tell us why. must have something to do with the elevation of the sat's from my lat/long.

edit; after thinking about some more I may have just improved the 119 a bit and the 103's signal is higher because of the higher frequency. All know for sure is I'm peaked on 103 and improved on 119 w/little or no sacrafice on 101.


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Here are my comparisons.

Same house
Same R15 unit for measurement
Same tech aligning
Same wiring

Different Sunny days, but all clear!

Three Dishes
Winegard 46cm (18")
Andrew KaKu (AT9)
Winegard 76cm (30")

See for yourself ...















































.........................Good ............................ .........................Step backwards......................... ........................Much better .....................

The real test will be the RAIN (cloud cover)! BRING IT ON! I hope there is less rain fade!


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Found a great place for the AT9 ........


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## Dave from Kazoo (Nov 28, 2004)

I have had the AT9 dish replace two(2) single dishes. On the R10, Hughes Tivo(2), and D10 signal strengths are the same for 101 and 119. The H20 has a signal strength reading but it works good even when it's raining. Only time I have lost signal with the AT9 dish was during a 10 minute downpour.


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

scott T said:


> Found a great place for the AT9 ........


Now-now Scott, let's be nice.
Got a box? Ship it to Houston and we can do some surgery on that triple LNB and see what's inside. Don't anyone say it won't come apart either, I have a band saw. Anything can be taken apart. :grin:


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

scott T said:


> Here are my comparisons.
> 
> Same house
> Same R15 unit for measurement
> ...


Well, propagation characteristics do vary a little from day to day, even hour to hour, but I think we get your point. Nice looking signals!!

I stopped by the *Home Theater Store* today and absolutely fell in love with the new Mitsubishi 65731 (65" DLP). Who knows, maybe this weekend I'll have something else to play with


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## Cap'n Preshoot (Jul 16, 2006)

Dave from Kazoo said:


> I have had the AT9 dish replace two(2) single dishes. On the R10, Hughes Tivo(2), and D10 signal strengths are the same for 101 and 119. The H20 has a signal strength reading but it works good even when it's raining. Only time I have lost signal with the AT9 dish was during a 10 minute downpour.


Thanks for the info Dave.
Dunno what's going on here, but Scott_T and I have had some very-very sorry results with our AT9s on the 101 sat.


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## scott T (Jul 6, 2006)

Cap'n Preshoot;624908 said:


> Now-now Scott, let's be nice.


Come on, haven't had a fun time screwing around with this, I'm just blowing off a little steam. :bang OK, maybe a little fun! 



Cap'n Preshoot;624908 said:


> Got a box? Ship it to Houston and we can do some surgery on that triple LNB and see what's inside. Don't anyone say it won't come apart either, I have a band saw. Anything can be taken apart. :grin:


I plan on taking it apart slowing and documenting. I will update you later.


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## AnonomissX (Jun 29, 2006)

Scott...you are getting sleepy....so sleeepy....you are packing up the 5lnb dish...you are shipping to me for free....you feel so freeeee....Oh, dammit, they don't even HAVE HD locals in Las Vegas yet!

Grrrr


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## NSDQ160th (Aug 26, 2006)

I have a H20 receiver with the KaKu dish. How come I don't get any signal strength on 99 and 98?? it all saids n/a. I 'm still getting local HD channels. Also I thought 110 and 119 would populate numbers for 1-36 but I only get a few signal strength readings. why is that? please reply back with an answer to [email protected] thank you all.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

NSDQ160th said:


> I have a H20 receiver with the KaKu dish. How come I don't get any signal strength on 99 and 98?? it all saids n/a. I 'm still getting local HD channels. Also I thought 110 and 119 would populate numbers for 1-36 but I only get a few signal strength readings. why is that? please reply back with an answer to [email protected] thank you all.


The H20-600 has a software bug which makes it not display signal strength for 99 (it still works, however). If 103 doesn't have any spotbeams in your area, they will read 0 (there are two settings for each, to allow for the sats which will be launched next year).

DirecTV only has a limited number of frequencies on 110 and 119 (these locations are shared with Dish) The other transponder spots will say n/a.


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