# Motion blur...myth?



## sigma1914

I used to think LCD having motion blur & plasma being better was a myth...until today. I got my new Samsung 50" plasma (PN50C8000) and I'm in awe. The picture is miles above any LCD I have ever seen. Hockey looks way better! 

Sorry I ever doubted you plasma guys. :lol:


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## Hoosier205

sigma1914 said:


> I used to think LCD having motion blur & plasma being better was a myth...until today. I got my new Samsung 50" plasma (PN50C8000) and I'm in awe. The picture is miles above any LCD I have ever seen. Hockey looks way better!
> 
> Sorry I ever doubted you plasma guys. :lol:


Congrats!  Plasma > LCD everytime


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## dsw2112

LCD's have definitely improved over the years, but anytime I've had someone over with a quality LCD they've been blown away by my Panny Plasma.

Your viewing environment is certainly a large component here though.


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## FHSPSU67

I'm another recent plasma owner, and my PanasonicTC-P65VT25 blows me away, too. 3D is addicting once you see it in your home.


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## matt

Been really thinking about getting this:
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-...ref=sr_1_2?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1288683074&sr=1-2

Any thoughts?


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## WERA689

I have that very set, and I'm very happy with it. Excellent out-of-box accuracy in Cinema mode, great picture all around. And a bargain, to boot!


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## matt

WERA689 said:


> I have that very set, and I'm very happy with it. Excellent out-of-box accuracy in Cinema mode, great picture all around. And a bargain, to boot!


Which one?


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## itzme

I've had my PN58C8000 for about a month now. When its on and I walk into the room, I still say 'wow' that is an amazing picture. It replaced my Panny LCD, which I also thought I loved. Great panel and great deal, too.

That said, my local CBS affiliate splits its bandwidth to too many channels, as a result now I DO for the first time see motion artifacts when I watch their NCAA football. Its as if my older LCD didn't register that degree of PQ to make it noticeable.


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## TBlazer07

The IR on plasmas still kills me. Despite what all the hype says (ie; not an issue anymore) both my PDP's are striped. One is 4 yrs old (50" NEC studio monitor) and the other is 2 yrs old (40" Vizio). I did all the burn-in stuff for 100+ hrs on both and it's still there and won't go away. The PQ is remarkable but the stripes drive me nuts. 

I'm looking for a set to replace my 50" and just might give LCD or LED a shot.


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## Mike Bertelson

TBlazer07 said:


> The IR on plasmas still kills me. Despite what all the hype says (ie; not an issue anymore) both my PDP's are striped. One is 4 yrs old (50" NEC studio monitor) and the other is 2 yrs old (40" Vizio). I did all the burn-in stuff for 100+ hrs on both and it's still there and won't go away. The PQ is remarkable but the stripes drive me nuts.
> 
> I'm looking for a set to replace my 50" and just might give LCD or LED a shot.


I have a 50" Panasonic and had a 42" Magnavox. Neither of these has ever exhibited image retention. Where are the stripes? Did you do any calibration on the sets?

To the topic, I have a Panasonic 50" (TC-P50G10) and, IMHO, it has a better picture than any LCD I've ever seen. Of course I'm kinda sensitive to the off axis thing. I hate when certain colors don't look the same as I cross the room...I have to admit that I bothers me more that it would most people so that plays into my objectivity on the subject.

I'm a plasma guy and until something drastically changes, I'll always be a plasma guy. 

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001

I might consider a plasma...but I already have 3 furnaces in my home that provide more than adaquate heat when needed. 

I also prefer not to see the CNN logo when my set is turned off. :lol:

As for the blur...somewhat of a myth too...the Hz refresh rate has as much to so with it as anything, and likely your newer HDTV is above the common 60Hz rate (perhaps 120Hz or higher).


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## MysteryMan

Has phosphorus burn in been totally eliminated with today's Plasma sets and what about reflective glare?


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## hdtvfan0001

MysteryMan said:


> Has phosphorus burn in been totally eliminated with today's Plasma sets and what about reflective glare?


Depends who you ask and what you read....I've read that it is NOT gone in many plasma units despite claims to the contrary...and also read it is...


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## Mike Bertelson

MysteryMan said:


> Has phosphorus burn in been totally eliminated with today's Plasma sets and what about reflective glare?





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Depends who you ask and what you read....I've read that it is NOT gone in many plasma units despite claims to the contrary...and also read it is...


I have seen some temporary after images but they're always go away. It doesn't happen often but I have seen it.

I have had the TV on in the background (while doing other things around the house) with an SD channel on for hours and no image retention.

After about 100 hours of breakin, I used the Blu-Ray edition of Digital Video Essentials to calibrate the display. Other than that I take not special considerations toward burn in. It's a absolute fact that if you leave something on the screen long enough that it will eventually become permanent so no matter what anyone says it's just something that's inherent to the technology. Today's technology limits the possibility in average viewing habits. It'll take a long time with the video set to torch mode to happen.

I've had plasmas for almost four years and have not had one issue with image retention...YMMV. :grin:

As for heat, it puts out less heat and uses less power than my old Panasonic 27" tube did so I don't see how you can consider heat output a problem. 

Mike


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## webby_s

I'll reply, I have had the Samsung PN50C7000 plasma and love it but I came from a Panny DLP, so the colors on the plasma are down right awesome.

Image retention is still there yes, unfortunetly. Is it bad? No but it's present. And you only notice it when you shut of the video source and leave the tv on. So my belief is that when you turn channels it's never an issue.

Glare on the screen is a non factor really and I have it in a well windowed living room. The colors on this plasma are bright enough to compensate any glare.

My next big tv purchase will def be plasma, I am sold. Plus this thing is as thin as any LED/LCD. It is, what, 2.9in thick!


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## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> As for heat, it puts out less heat and uses less power than my old Panasonic 27" tube did so I don't see how you can consider heat output a problem.
> 
> Mike


Guess I'm not used to having a nuclear power plant in my home... :lol:


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## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Guess I'm not used to having a nuclear power plant in my home... :lol:


What did you do back in your SD tube TV days? 

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> What did you do back in your SD tube TV days?
> 
> Mike


Used more air conditioning and had less TVs... :lol:


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## sigma1914

Yeah, the plasma is a nice room heater. It's a 50" set in an about 10'x11' room.


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## TBlazer07

MicroBeta said:


> I have a 50" Panasonic and had a 42" Magnavox. Neither of these has ever exhibited image retention. Where are the stripes? Did you do any calibration on the sets?
> 
> To the topic, I have a Panasonic 50" (TC-P50G10) and, IMHO, it has a better picture than any LCD I've ever seen. Of course I'm kinda sensitive to the off axis thing. I hate when certain colors don't look the same as I cross the room...I have to admit that I bothers me more that it would most people so that plays into my objectivity on the subject.
> 
> I'm a plasma guy and until something drastically changes, I'll always be a plasma guy.
> 
> Mike


50' NEC PDP was professionally calibrated. Vizio wasn't. Stripes are on the sides from watching 4:3 programming (and not really very many). Every Plasma I have ever seen has had some sort of IR looking closely on a light screen. Been running solid color "burn-in DVD" slides every night for the last week and it won't go away. Pixel shifting has always been on as well.


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## Richierich

sigma1914 said:


> Yeah, the plasma is a nice room heater. It's a 50" set in an about 10'x11' room.


And uses twice as much electricity as an LCD. I have both a Fujitsu 50" Plasma and a 52" Samsung LCD and I have looked at the wattages on both of them and the Plasma definitely eats up twice the amount of watts and is very hot.

My LCD looks Awesome and better than my Fujitsu Plasma which was $14,000 when I bought it even though I didn't pay that much for it.


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## Mike Bertelson

TBlazer07 said:


> 50' NEC PDP was professionally calibrated. Vizio wasn't. Stripes are on the sides from watching 4:3 programming (and not really very many). Every Plasma I have ever seen has had some sort of IR looking closely on a light screen. Been running solid color "burn-in DVD" slides every night for the last week and it won't go away. Pixel shifting has always been on as well.


That's a bummer Blazer. Have you looked at the threads on AVS about burnin? It doesn't sound like it'll help much but it's worth a try.

After reading this thread I've been watching my plasma for signs of burnin but I haven't seen any. I wonder why it's such a problem for some and not for others. :scratchin

Mike


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## TBlazer07

MicroBeta said:


> That's a bummer Blazer. Have you looked at the threads on AVS about burnin? It doesn't sound like it'll help much but it's worth a try.
> 
> After reading this thread I've been watching my plasma for signs of burnin but I haven't seen any. I wonder why it's such a problem for some and not for others. :scratchin
> 
> Mike


Yea, AVS pointed me to the "burnin'" slides. I also have a B&W "snow" video which I use. It's only visible on light backgrounds.


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## TBlazer07

richierich said:


> And uses twice as much electricity as an LCD.


 According to what I have been reading, newer PDP models have come much closer to LCD power usage just like LCD's are getting closer to PDP black.

I think Plasmas are like Beta VCR's were. Always better but don't sell as well. I could live with most everything an LCD does "worse" then a PDP except for the judder. I was looking at a $3000 LCD in a store and panning made me dizzy. Admittedly it wasn't calibrated, but that seems to be one of the big issues with LCD. "They" say that when you adjust an LCD to remove the judder you lose something else, like PQ.


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## Richierich

Well, my espensive LCD looks a Tad bit Better than my expensive Plasma and I paid alot for my Plasma way back when, and I get so many compliments on it when people come into my Home Entertainment Area.

I don't see any Judder. All I see is Stunning Picture Quality. My Plasma seems more washed out but the PQ is still great but just not as Bright and Stunning as my LCD.

Some might even say it looks more Natural than my LCD but I'll take either one of them over my Rear Projection Mitshbishi.


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## Steve

TBlazer07 said:


> [...] I think Plasmas are like Beta VCR's were. Always better but don't sell as well [...]


I have a good friend who's a long-time home theater installer who installs the latest and greatest displays every day. He's a real stickler for video quality, and when the day comes he replaces his own plasmas with LCD's, then I might consider one.  I also frequent the AVS forums, and see from their posts that ISF calibrators, like *Larry in RI* and *D-Nice*, still personally use plasmas as well.

I think part of the appeal of today's LCD TV's is how thin and elegant they are compared to plasmas. They look much sleeker when they're "off", and as a result may have a very high WAF. You pay a premium for that, tho, when you consider the price differential between comparably-sized top of the line LCD/LED sets vs. plasmas.

I watch most of my TV on a calibrated 2009 65" Panny plasma I wouldn't trade for anything but the model that replaced it. The picture quality is so realistic, I sometimes feel like I'm watching 3D on some shows! Just my experience, tho. Others' mileage may vary.


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## sigma1914

Steve said:


> ...
> 
> I think part of the appeal of today's LCD TV's is how thin and elegant they are compared to plasmas. They look much sleeker when they're "off", and as a result may have a very high WAF. You pay a premium for that, tho, when you consider the price differential between comparably-sized top of the line LCD/LED sets vs. plasmas.
> 
> ...


I think that's why Samsung designed a sleek plasma like the one I got. It's super thin:


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## Steve

sigma1914 said:


> I think that's why Samsung designed a sleek plasma like the one I got. It's super thin [...]


Ya. Some of those LCD's are beautifully designed. Like _Museum of Modern Art_ pieces!


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## Mike Bertelson

sigma1914 said:


> I think that's why Samsung designed a sleek plasma like the one I got. It's super thin:


The Samsungs are about to get sleeker. They are going to start using Gorilla Glass in their plasmas starting with the 2011 model year. 

Mike


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## TBlazer07

richierich said:


> Well, my espensive LCD looks a Tad bit Better than my expensive Plasma and I paid alot for my Plasma way back when, and I get so many compliments on it when people come into my Home Entertainment Area.
> 
> I don't see any Judder. All I see is Stunning Picture Quality. My Plasma seems more washed out but the PQ is still great but just not as Bright and Stunning as my LCD.
> 
> Some might even say it looks more Natural than my LCD but I'll take either one of them over my Rear Projection Mitshbishi.


I never saw judder until I found out what it was. Then it drove me nuts. :sure:


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## texasmoose

MicroBeta said:


> The Samsungs are about to get sleeker. They are going to start using Gorilla Glass in their plasmas starting with the 2011 model year.
> 
> Mike


http://www.corning.com/gorillaglass/index.aspx


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## mutelight

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I might consider a plasma...but I already have 3 furnaces in my home that provide more than adaquate heat when needed.
> 
> I also prefer not to see the CNN logo when my set is turned off. :lol:
> 
> As for the blur...somewhat of a myth too...the Hz refresh rate has as much to so with it as anything, and likely your newer HDTV is above the common 60Hz rate (perhaps 120Hz or higher).


Most plasmas retain full 1080p motion resolution at 24, 60, and 96hz. There is no need for them to go above those refresh rates because they do not suffer from loss of motion resolution like LCD. The whole objective behind the high refresh rates on LCDs, with motion tweening (soap opera effect) is to try to maintain motion resolution.


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## Laxguy

mutelight said:


> Most plasmas retain full 1080p motion resolution at 24, 60, and 96hz. There is no need for them to go above those refresh rates because they do not suffer from loss of motion resolution like LCD. The whole objective behind the high refresh rates on LCDs, with motion tweening (soap opera effect) is to try to maintain motion resolution.


And size matters! For this reason, I got, just a year ago, a 58" Samsung plasma, and a 32" Samsung LCD. Could not be happier with both of them.

It seems in this thread some are comparing 5+ year old plasmas with new LCD's, etc. ..... date of purchase would be helpful.

No sign of burn in, but I seldom just leave the set on, and FF a lot, which gets rid of logo/token/crawl/whatever somewhat frequently. Plus, DirecTV puts its floating logo out when I do pause and leave the room.


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## camo

My main concern with plasmas is they get dimmer with age. Lose there brightest. Panny's I think are among the worse. I for one hate a dull picture and enjoy a bright crisp picture. I do own a Vizio plasma and it doesn't provide the picture of my LCD but does look a lot better with SD programming vs my LCD.


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## Steve

camo said:


> My main concern with plasmas is they get dimmer with age. Lose there brightest. Panny's I think are among the worse [...]


More a theoretical than practical issue, just like with picture tubes on the old CRT sets. My Panny's are rated 30 years to "half-brightness", if viewed 8 hours a day. We watch our 65" plasma about 2-4 hours per day, so worst case, that's 60 years to half brightness, or about 1/120th loss of brightness per year. And right now my brightness is set at 65, on a scale of 1-100, so plenty of headroom to increase brightness if it ever became an issue. My oldest plasma is 5 years old and is still set at the calibrated brightness and contrast settings from day one.


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## Mike Bertelson

camo said:


> My main concern with plasmas is they get dimmer with age. Lose there brightest. Panny's I think are among the worse. I for one hate a dull picture and enjoy a bright crisp picture. I do own a Vizio plasma and it doesn't provide the picture of my LCD but does look a lot better with SD programming vs my LCD.


Unless you have thirty thousand plus hours on you Vizio, it really shouldn't appear dim. AAMOF, a typical plasma TV has the life span of the CRT we all grew up with. Many of the name brands now have 100,000 hour panels...under optimal conditions. Ok, so that's a lot of marketing mumbo jumbo, but lets say its 50,000 hours, that's still a real long time. If your TV is on 6 hours a day, then that's over 22 years of life. If we go with 30,000 hours at on 6 hours a day it's still 14 years. Unless your TV is pretty old you shouldn't notice any degradation is brightness.

Have you had it calibrated? You can get one of those calibration DVDs (I use Digital Video Essentials). That might help restore your picture.

Mike


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## Rich

matt1124 said:


> Been really thinking about getting this:
> http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-TC-...ref=sr_1_2?s=tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1288683074&sr=1-2
> 
> Any thoughts?


Yup, I've got one and I don't like it. Only paid about $500 for it and it really isn't as good as my other Panny plasma 1080p, or my five Panny 720p plasmas. Calibrating it did not work well, either.

Rich


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## Rich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I might consider a plasma...but I already have 3 furnaces in my home that provide more than adaquate heat when needed.


Makes for great supplemental heating in the winter.



> I also prefer not to see the CNN logo when my set is turned off. :lol:


Seven Panny plasmas and no picture retention on any of them. My son's been playing games on his 50" plasma for years and no picture retention at all.



> As for the blur...somewhat of a myth too...the Hz refresh rate has as much to so with it as anything, and likely your newer HDTV is above the common 60Hz rate (perhaps 120Hz or higher).


The 60 Hertz sets were a ripoff from the get-go. A few months ago, I stood in front of a wall of LCDs from all manufacturers in a 6TH Avenue store after a salesman challenged me to pick out the 240 Hertz sets on the wall while the World Cup was being displayed. Took me less than five minutes to pick out the 240s. The rest were 60s and 120s and the salesman admitted that the 60s were junk, but we drew a crowd while I showed him the motion blur on the 120s. The 240s seemed to be fine. There were five or six on the wall and they were clearly better. Look at it this way, I can afford to buy any TV and I only buy plasmas. I might take a shot at a 240 LCD the next time I buy one. I did like the Sonys the best.

Rich


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## Rich

MysteryMan said:


> Has phosphorus burn in been totally eliminated with today's Plasma sets and what about reflective glare?


I have no problem with either issue. I don't like the new Panny plasma I just bought, tho.

Rich


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## Richierich

Not to mention that my Plasma uses twice as much wattage as my LCD!!! 

Therein lies the reason for the Heat!!!


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## LI-SVT

To the OP concerning motion blur be careful with plasma phosphor trails. Some people are very sensitive to this. For me hockey is unwatchable on my Panny plasma.


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## bungi43

dsw2112 said:


> LCD's have definitely improved over the years, but anytime I've had someone over with a quality LCD they've been blown away by my Panny Plasma.
> 
> Your viewing environment is certainly a large component here though.


Unless Panasonic goes the way of RCA, I'll never buy another brand of TV.


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## bungi43

Mike Bertelson said:


> I have a 50" Panasonic and had a 42" Magnavox. Neither of these has ever exhibited image retention. Where are the stripes? Did you do any calibration on the sets?
> 
> To the topic, I have a Panasonic 50" (TC-P50G10) and, IMHO, it has a better picture than any LCD I've ever seen. Of course I'm kinda sensitive to the off axis thing. I hate when certain colors don't look the same as I cross the room...I have to admit that I bothers me more that it would most people so that plays into my objectivity on the subject.
> 
> I'm a plasma guy and until something drastically changes, I'll always be a plasma guy.
> 
> Mike


I'm with you. I've got a TC-P65S1, a TCP-42C1 and an older TH42PX60 (I believe that's the model) and I've not had issues with any of them. Occasionally if I play video games for a while (EA sports games) I'll see a bit of an image retention of the logo (Usually well more than an hour) and about 2 minutes of snowy screen clears it right up. I watch a ton of movies and never have the stripes or bars.


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## bungi43

camo said:


> My main concern with plasmas is they get dimmer with age. Lose there brightest. Panny's I think are among the worse. I for one hate a dull picture and enjoy a bright crisp picture. I do own a Vizio plasma and it doesn't provide the picture of my LCD but does look a lot better with SD programming vs my LCD.


Timeframe on that? Like 15-20 years?


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## bungi43

rich584 said:


> I have no problem with either issue. I don't like the new Panny plasma I just bought, tho.
> 
> Rich


What seems to be off about it?


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## Rich

bungi43 said:


> What seems to be off about it?


Just gave it a while to "burn in" and it's fine now. Had the same problem with my other 1080p Panny plasma. All five of my 720ps were good to go right out of the box.

I tried the calibrations, all kinds of calibrations, did no good. I just left it on for a few days and now it's fine. It's an S series set. Brand new.

Rich


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## dmurphy

TBlazer07 said:


> 50' NEC PDP was professionally calibrated. Vizio wasn't. Stripes are on the sides from watching 4:3 programming (and not really very many). Every Plasma I have ever seen has had some sort of IR looking closely on a light screen. Been running solid color "burn-in DVD" slides every night for the last week and it won't go away. Pixel shifting has always been on as well.


Well shucks, if it's a 50 foot display, I should HOPE it's professionally calibrated!

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/03/ny-yankees-new/


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## bungi43

rich584 said:


> Just gave it a while to "burn in" and it's fine now. Had the same problem with my other 1080p Panny plasma. All five of my 720ps were good to go right out of the box.
> 
> I tried the calibrations, all kinds of calibrations, did no good. I just left it on for a few days and now it's fine. It's an S series set. Brand new.
> 
> Rich


Gotcha. Glad it came around. I've got an "S" series as well, I did my tinkering with it out of the box and It's been pretty solid.

I do change up the color temps from time to time based on how I feel...but I think i've got it working the way I want.


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## Rich

bungi43 said:


> Gotcha. Glad it came around. I've got an "S" series as well, I did my tinkering with it out of the box and It's been pretty solid.
> 
> I do change up the color temps from time to time based on how I feel...but I think i've got it working the way I want.


I read an article about Panny plasmas not too long ago and it was suggested that the Color control be turned up to take advantage of Panny's color display. Don't remember where I read it.

Rich


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