# Ask Swanni: Will DIRECTV Renew Ties With TiVo?



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

*Ask Swanni: Will DIRECTV Renew Ties With TiVo?*



> *Q. Swanni, will DIRECTV ever get together again with TiVo? With all the problems it's having with its new HD DVR, it would sure make sense. -- George S.*
> DIRECTV ended its marketing partnership with TiVo about 18 months ago partially (if not largely) because the satcaster's new corporate parent (News Corp.) had a rival DVR service. While DIRECTV continues to support existing DIRECTV-TiVo boxes, it no longer actively sells them.
> 
> However, Liberty Media will take control of DIRECTV from News Corp. in a stock swap later this year. At that time, it's possible that the Liberty-owned DIRECTV will once again partner with TiVo. But don't assume it and don't expect it will happen anytime soon. DIRECTV has been criticized for the performance of its new HD DVR, but it's getting close to working out the bugs. If the set-top's performance improves, DIRECTV probably would be content with staying with it for branding reasons.


See the rest of the latest edition of Ask Swanni - *TVPredictions.com*


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## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

I've moved most of my watching to the HR20 but I still think D* should partner with Tivo and offer the choice. I remember reading they would offer 2 flavors. A cheaper D* version and a premium Tivo one and charge slightly more. I think there is room for 2 options and I know there will be plenty of folks willing to pay a slight premium to keep their Tivo. I know my wife would.


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm sorry but aside from DLB I fail to see what the HR10 has that the HR20 doesn't? Granted, a new tivo box could be issued (that would increase the speeds of the ui) but I don't see that happening.

Edit: Okay, I have to admit that even I would pay extra to use a tivo dvr with d*tv.


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## hambonewd (Feb 7, 2007)

mr anderson said:


> I'm sorry but aside from DLB I fail to see what the HR10 has that the HR20 doesn't? Granted, a new tivo box could be issued (that would increase the speeds of the ui) but I don't see that happening.
> 
> Edit: Okay, I have to admit that even I would pay extra to use a tivo dvr with d*tv.


HA! The truth comes out


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

what truth? *scratches head*


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

I don't see why D* would open it's DVRs up to competition from an outside equipment manufacturer and software base, and on the other hand it doesn't make sense, as far as the R15 goes to keep paying NDS for updates. Maybe that platform will change and share more with the HR20. I would just be a little upset if they made the R15 less than fully functional (like the non interactive Tivos) with all their new stuff coming out, and forced me into a leased unit when I already own my R15.


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## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

Yeah, but don't be holding your breath for DLB.

I'm a lot less vehement about getting a TiVo than I was a few months ago as the HR20 has gotten more stable. There are still some kinks to be worked out, but it's getting there.

I do miss DLB, however, and so does the wife!


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

dodge boy said:


> I don't see why D* would open it's DVRs up to competition from an outside equipment manufacturer and software base, and on the other hand it doesn't make sense, as far as the R15 goes to keep paying NDS for updates. Maybe that platform will change and share more with the HR20. I would just be a little upset if they made the R15 less than fully functional (like the non interactive Tivos) with all their new stuff coming out, and forced me into a leased unit when I already own my R15.


Dodgeboy, The HR20 is outside equipment and software. It's NDS, and NDS is News Corp., not Liberty


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

mr anderson said:


> I'm sorry but aside from DLB I fail to see what the HR10 has that the HR20 doesn't? .


Autorecord, CIR, never misses a recording, no RBR, no BSOD, no BSB, no audio dropouts, FF autocorrection, better guide handling, ability to edit priority list when no episodes found, wishlists (much better than the non-functional autorecord, even if autorecord worked), intelligent recorded-programs listing, working search function...


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Remember: Choice = higher support costs and higher production costs due to less economies of scale.

DirecTV has not one single reason other then a complete collapse of the HR20 to go back to offering Tivo based boxes if most people don't care what OS runs their DVR. Very small % of the customer base care about Tivo over channels. 

But then this has gone round and round before... :beatdeadhorse:


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Dodgeboy, The HR20 is outside equipment and software. It's NDS, and NDS is News Corp., not Liberty


Wrong. The HR20 is in-house DirecTV, it is not NDS. The R15 is NDS.

Carl


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## Alexandrepsf (Oct 26, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> Very small % of the customer base care about Tivo over channels.


Very high % of the customer caring about being able to record their programs care for a GOOD DVR over anything else.

I would rather not to have more channels right now and just to be able to watch the programs I used to watch using my Tivo that I no more can with the HR20.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Swanni's thoughts are just more speculation in line with every conceivable theory imagined here about D* going back to TIVO, in other words, it's not worth the space it occupies on the server......


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Remember: Choice = higher support costs and higher production costs due to less economies of scale.
> 
> DirecTV has not one single reason other then a complete collapse of the HR20 to go back to offering Tivo based boxes if most people don't care what OS runs their DVR. Very small % of the customer base care about Tivo over channels.
> 
> But then this has gone round and round before... :beatdeadhorse:


At some point in time the execs at D may determine that the HR20 and future development is a money losing operation. They may grow tired of dealing with the issues and constant development, returns, tech support and patch costs and sub it back out to the TIVO folks.
Their core business is delivering content not designing, developing and supporting equipment.

For the record I would swap (even pay) to get rid of my 3 HR20s for a comparable (meaning one that will support Ds future plans). Plain and simple...forget about the features that are missing on the HR20. I knew my TIVO was going to record the show I wanted...the HR20 is always a crapshoot.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

First off, for the most part I like the HR20 software, having said that:

If the software which resides in the HR20 DVR truly is developed completely by DirecTV and not NDS, then it certainly looks like parts of it are very similar to the NDS XTV software which can be seen here:

http://www.nds.com/personal_tv/personal_tv.html
http://www.nds.com/pdfs/XTV.pdf

So, did DirecTV license the technology from NDS and then develop their own variant of it? If Malone indeed does take control of DirecTV, would DirecTV have to make payments to NDS for licensing their software, or is it possible it was a one time payment already made or was or would be waived?

Or, alternatively did DirecTV really put the work into creating an interface that looks a lot like the NDS XTV interface? (That just doesn't make sense to me that they would spend the time to reinvent the wheel like that.) And, if not then might DirecTV be forced to change to an alternate UI if Malone owns the company? (I have heard rumors - on this site I think - that an alternate UI might be in the works.)


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## jackmacokc (Oct 10, 2006)

I dont think they will ever go back, which is a shame. But with all the resources they have thrown at moving to their own in house DVR - it would be silly for them to go back. With their own DVRs they pay no licensing fees or anything like that - and as long as business is growing, which all indications I've seen say they are, they'll stick with their own DVR. TiVo was just a springboard for them, and it sucks because the UI I like so much bette ron TiVo. 

But I have to admit, I'm pretty happy with my HR20. My HR15 is much faster than my old DirecTiVo in terms of UI. I still love TiVo though.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

say-what said:


> Swanni's thoughts are just more speculation in line with every conceivable theory imagined here about D* going back to TIVO, in other words, it's not worth the space it occupies on the server......


I have to agree.


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## DBordello (Dec 16, 2006)

Directv is in the content delievery business. Why not let another company make a set-top box? If they determine that letting Tivo make a DVR will increase the number of subs why wouldn't they? I doubt that they are trying to make money on the hardware of the HR20.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

BillyT2002 said:


> First off, for the most part I like the HR20 software, having said that:
> 
> If the software which resides in the HR20 DVR truly is developed completely by DirecTV and not NDS, then it certainly looks like parts of it are very similar to the NDS XTV software which can be seen here:
> 
> ...


The core UI design has been around now for more then 4 years (all the way back to the D10)...

They really did put the work into creating the interface to look the same as their previous models (D10,11,H20,R15)

There are improvements to the UI planned, but it is not going to be an entirely new/radically different UI.

The HR20 is done by DirecTV employees, in LA.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

DBordello said:


> Directv is in the content delievery business. Why not let another company make a set-top box? If they determine that letting Tivo make a DVR will increase the number of subs why wouldn't they? I doubt that they are trying to make money on the hardware of the HR20.


And Microsoft was just a Operating System company.

There is no reason because your original core buisness was one thing, that you can't expand your business into something else.

There is no guarantee that letting TiVo make the DVR will increase the number of subs... There is no guarantee that using their own will also.

There is not "one" reason on why DirecTV went the direction it did... there where many reasons, which they all played a part in the choice of building their "own" DVR line... and not continuing with the TiVo series.

The "hardware" doesn't make the money... They take a $$ loss on every piece of hardware sold. It is the subscriptions that bring the income in.


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## dlt4 (Oct 4, 2006)

My DSR704 is the only DVR I've ever had, and from what I read about the other units on this forum, I'm going to hold onto it for as long as I can (or until I go HD).


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

Man I hope they do _something_ with th UI on the HR20.

The HR20's UI is to the d*tv tivo's what windows *95* is to OS X.

u-u-gly.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mr anderson said:


> Man I hope they do _something_ with th UI on the HR20.
> 
> The HR20's UI is to the d*tv tivo's what windows *95* is to OS X.
> 
> u-u-gly.


See that is where people differ...

For me...
The UI on the DTivos is Windows 95 (full screen, little overlay, little context sensitive)
The UI on the HR20 (and other receivers) is the XP (more overlays... some full screen, but still have that PIP up in the window... a lot more context sensitive windows... more quick button usage).

But that is where each person has their preference in how they want to interact with the system. There is no 1 GUI that is going to satisfy 100% of the people out there.

And I would bet... that if JUST the GUI was evaluated (no other functionalities... just the GUI and the interaction with the unit)... you would find a very small margin difference between the DTivos and the DVR+ GUI...
And if you then mix in UTV's GUI into the question, you probably wouldn't have a "majority" for anyone of the three.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

mr anderson said:


> The HR20's UI is to the d*tv tivo's what windows *95* is to OS X.


Yeah if the OS X is Slow and unintuitive. Never like the TiVo UI. Glad it's gone.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Actually I'm a minimalist and as such, I used to prefer the TIVO UI because it was a plain and simple text-only based UI, no animation, etc...

I have grown to prefer the HR20 UI now though (especially now that I'll be able to turn the animation off), because with the TIVO, as you were navigating the menu screen(s), television was not at all present (except for the TIVO style guide which is transparent - and I still prefer over the main guide with the mini-window reserved for television on the HR20. With the HR20, even when the menu is invoked, I can still see mostly what is going on on the television screen. As to the HR20 guide, I prefer the miniguide. I would like to see them try to make the menu less present though, as it is my opinion that I never need to see any more than one menu option on the screen at any given time. I'd like them to implement a mini-menu which show me only one line of the menu as I scroll up or down it and starts at the menu entry for my vod. Then the rest of my screen can remain for television viewing only. The less present that they can make the UI, the happier I'll be.

Ultimately if they can displace the UI from the television screen altogether and instead give me the option of a UI on an external, third-party device (and NEVER appears on the television), you've defined television nirvana for me.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

dodge boy said:


> I would just be a little upset if they made the R15 less than fully functional


You couldn't possibly make my R15 any less functional.
How do you go down from 'paperweight?'


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

BillyT2002 said:


> I'd like them to implement a mini-menu which show me only one line of the menu as I scroll up or down it and starts at the menu entry for my vod.


Not a bad Idea... send it to Brott so he can add it to the next version of the Wish List.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

II like the features and such of the HR20 UI. I do wish it was layed out a little better in places, make things easier to get to without having to jump through other menus, then again I thought the same of my Tivos. One og my huge complaints with the the HR20 UI is that it's not visually appealing to me, I don't care if it's animated or anything like that I just want it to look nicer more modern. It reminds me of the menus from long long ago when I first got DTV. Before you wonder no thats no a compliment. Just Jazz it up, make it look like some of the screen shots they had from a while back, make it look more like the Active stuff. Animations I can take or leave, I want better layout and more visual appeal. Not talking going Vista look here but at least XP :lol:


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not a bad Idea... send it to Brott so he can add it to the next version of the Wish List.


I have sent it to him via a private message. Thanks, Earl.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mr anderson said:


> Man I hope they do _something_ with th UI on the HR20.
> 
> The HR20's UI is to the d*tv tivo's what windows *95* is to OS X.
> 
> u-u-gly.


I had to LOL on this.

The Tivo UI is like Microsoft Bob.
HR20 is more like Windows XP compared to that Microsoft Bob. :hurah:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

say-what said:


> Swanni's thoughts are just more speculation in line with every conceivable theory imagined here about D* going back to TIVO, in other words, it's not worth the space it occupies on the server......


I agree. I used to correspond with Phil Swanni quite a bit and found if you disagree with him you get a one word answer back. I asked him months ago if and why anyone with a satellite receiver would need a special box when the switch to digital occurs in 2009 and his answer was that a box would still be needed. A common SD TiVo changes the digital signal to an analog signal, so why would you need a special box? I still have that email if he disputes this. This forum is much better than his newsletter. I still receive his newsletter and read it every day and find less and less of interest. Seems like a gathering of news from other sites.

I cannot believe that the digital switch is going to take place as a new president is inaugerated. Why would any politician allow that to happen while he is taking office?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> *Ask Swanni: Will DIRECTV Renew Ties With TiVo?*
> 
> See the rest of the latest edition of Ask Swanni - *TVPredictions.com*


Has little to do with branding issues and lots to do with accounting issues.

Rich


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> See that is where people differ...
> 
> For me...
> The UI on the DTivos is Windows 95 (full screen, little overlay, little context sensitive)
> The UI on the HR20 (and other receivers) is the XP (more overlays... some full screen, but still have that PIP up in the window... a lot more context sensitive windows... more quick button usage).


Just be glad neither is Vista.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 is done by DirecTV employees, in LA.


Serious question - Who does the testing?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Serious question - Who does the testing?


There are multiple levels of testing.
But DirecTV is responsible for the HR20 testing.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

say-what said:


> Swanni's thoughts are just more speculation in line with every conceivable theory imagined here about D* going back to TIVO, in other words, it's not worth the space it occupies on the server......


You have to take Swammi's thoughts with a grain of salt.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

Its funny how every discussion of TiVo v. HR20 degenerates into one of UI. I really don't care which one it looks like. I want it to work, every time, like TiVo. That's all. I am used to the HR20 UI now, and I still get to use the TiVo UI when watching all the shows the HR20 neglects to record. I don't care. I just want it to work. That's the only reason I support TiVo over HR20. I want the DVR to record everything it is told to. I want to be able to set up autorecords/wishlists to record all the Islanders games on NHL Center Ice. As of now, only one box does that, TiVo. Picture in picture, context sensitive options, all that is meaningless when I come home from work and the game I set it to record is not there. Its like a great paint job on a car that won't run. We can discuss colors all you want, but at the end of the day, I prefer the vomit colored car that runs over the dead car in electric blue.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Serious question - Who does the testing?


We do! That's what we all paid our $300 for right?


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## xerxes (Jan 21, 2007)

islesfan said:


> Its funny how every discussion of TiVo v. HR20 degenerates into one of UI. I really don't care which one it looks like. I want it to work, every time, like TiVo. That's all. I am used to the HR20 UI now, and I still get to use the TiVo UI when watching all the shows the HR20 neglects to record. I don't care. I just want it to work. That's the only reason I support TiVo over HR20. I want the DVR to record everything it is told to. I want to be able to set up autorecords/wishlists to record all the Islanders games on NHL Center Ice. As of now, only one box does that, TiVo. Picture in picture, context sensitive options, all that is meaningless when I come home from work and the game I set it to record is not there. Its like a great paint job on a car that won't run. We can discuss colors all you want, but at the end of the day, I prefer the vomit colored car that runs over the dead car in electric blue.


You are spot on, I really like the HR20 now, it has grown on me. But it is a step back when it comes to stability and core functionality and that has to change.


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

ApK said:


> You couldn't possibly make my R15 any less functional.
> How do you go down from 'paperweight?'


Boat Anchor!:lol: 
you know what I meant, I meant would not work with new stuff coming out, interactive, MRV, movies that can be downloaded and taken on a portable device or streamed to a computer..... Things I suspect are closer than we realize..... Earl????


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## marty45714 (Dec 16, 2006)

Exactly what I was going to say. This was discussed when the merger was first announced. And really any discussion is just a guess.



bonscott87 said:


> But then this has gone round and round before... :beatdeadhorse:


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BillyT2002 said:


> Actually I'm a minimalist and as such, I used to prefer the TIVO UI because it was a plain and simple text-only based UI, no animation, etc...


What? Tivo's UI has animation. It also has video backgrounds. I'd call Tivo's UI a lot of things, but "minimalist" isn't one of them.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> For me...
> The UI on the DTivos is Windows 95 (full screen, little overlay, little context sensitive)
> The UI on the HR20 (and other receivers) is the XP (more overlays... some full screen, but still have that PIP up in the window... a lot more context sensitive windows... more quick button usage).


I think the "Windows 95" comment comes more from the color scheme. The DirecTV color scheme is very drab, everything is a shade of blue. Tivo's color scheme is more expansive, so it feels more exciting.

But from what I've seen of the new UI coming to DirecTVs receivers, it will blow away Tivo's UI. I can't wait for it to get here! :grin:


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The core UI design has been around now for more then 4 years (all the way back to the D10)...
> 
> They really did put the work into creating the interface to look the same as their previous models (D10,11,H20,R15)
> 
> ...


And if the "recent" response to the concerns and issues posted here, ie:CE releases, is any indication of the D* programmers dedication I will stay with the HR20.
Also I doubt that the TIVO fan base has a great spearheader as we have in Earl.

Just an asideLB would clinch the deal!!!!


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

xerxes said:


> You are spot on, I really like the HR20 now, it has grown on me. But it is a step back when it comes to stability and core functionality and that has to change.


Must be a item by item issue.
My HR20 has never missed a recording in 6 months and many software/CE upgrades.

I did have several other issues but were "one of" so I didn't do a report.
There has been other issues such as "pixie dust" and CC issues but some of these are hard to distinguish between software and network (local or otherwise).


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## thumperr (Feb 10, 2006)

count one vote for bring the UTV back...you could actually delete your history, a feature neither the TIVO (hr10) nor the HR20 has.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

thumperr said:


> count one vote for bring the UTV back...you could actually delete your history, a feature neither the TIVO (hr10) nor the HR20 has.


Make that 2....and it has PIP. 

I know, I know, you're all tired of hearing about that. :grin:


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> I think the "Windows 95" comment comes more from the color scheme. The DirecTV color scheme is very drab, everything is a shade of blue. Tivo's color scheme is more expansive, so it feels more exciting.
> 
> But from what I've seen of the new UI coming to DirecTVs receivers, it will blow away Tivo's UI. I can't wait for it to get here! :grin:


My point exactly!

And you've seen the new UI? Do tell....


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Ken S said:


> For the record I would swap (even pay) to get rid of my 3 HR20s for a comparable (meaning one that will support Ds future plans).


I agree. I wonder how many of us would actually hang onto and defend our HR20s if a new HR25 TiVo box were offered in the future? True, it would depend on how the HR25 performed. But if most of the bugs were eliminated before it reached our hands, I'd jump to it readily.

I also think those who like playing with the latest devices would jump as well.


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## uscboy (Sep 5, 2006)

Don't get me wrong, very few tech things are too complicated for me. Being in IT 
for 11 years now, I figure out the things like the HR20 pretty quickly...

However, the Tivo UI is hands down better for 99% of the population. This is a 
DVR, not an operating system. All it needs to do is record and playback 
television. My toaster doesn't need a shoe shine attachment and 10 different 
screens to make it toast bread.

Things like OSes and computers shouldn't be dumbed down like MacOS (and 
slowly but surely Windows), but for a DVR, I loved the Tivo interface.

Please, D*, please offer Tivos. If ever there's a company that deserves to stay in 
business, it's Tivo. Contracts like D* could make or break a company like Tivo 
because DVRs really need to be integrated into television providers systems and 
cable cards aren't catching fire like they hope.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

To be honest I would probably get the new Tivo advice if it came out for DTV. It would work along side my HR20. I wouldn't get it to replace anything I would get it because I love new toys.


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> To be honest I would probably get the new Tivo advice if it came out for DTV. It would work along side my HR20. I wouldn't get it to replace anything I would get it because I love new toys.


If D* and Tivo got back together and made a new box, my wife would have me arrested if I didn't trade this hr20 box for the Tivo. She loved it.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

uscboy, we used to have a dev in our shop who would call any project that started to exhibit feature- and scope-creep a "shoe-toaster." Maybe you know him? 

I agree. the colors and graphics of a UI are just about 100% personal preference, but there's more to a Ui than looks, and while some functionality is certainly subjective in what's good and bad, and some ease-of-access priorities are more important to some than others, I agree that the Tivo is, by my standards as a developer and UI desginer, a better UI for a DVR for the most people in it's target audience.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I'm still convinced that the ideal third-party device UI (DVR, VCR/what not...) would never make an appearance on the television screen at all and would be completely housed within a handheld third-party LCD, touchscreen device.

I really want to see that become a reality some day.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

BillyT2002 said:


> I'm still convinced that the ideal third-party device UI (DVR, VCR/what not...) would never make an appearance on the television screen at all and would be completely housed within a handheld third-party LCD, touchscreen device.


I think that would be inconvenient. The TV is the logical place for the UI.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

BillyT2002 said:


> I'm still convinced that the ideal third-party device UI (DVR, VCR/what not...) would never make an appearance on the television screen at all and would be completely housed within a handheld third-party LCD, touchscreen device.
> 
> I really want to see that become a reality some day.


Might be ideal for you, but certainly not for many others.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

islesfan said:


> Autorecord, CIR, never misses a recording, no RBR, no BSOD, no BSB, no audio dropouts, FF autocorrection, better guide handling, ability to edit priority list when no episodes found, wishlists (much better than the non-functional autorecord, even if autorecord worked), intelligent recorded-programs listing, working search function...


Don't forget the possibility of tuning all available digital OTA stations.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Jeremy W said:


> I think that would be inconvenient. The TV is the logical place for the UI.





ApK said:


> Might be ideal for you, but certainly not for many others.


Let's say that there was also an option to additionally display the UI on the television set which could be turned on or off at the user's whim. Why would this be inconvient then? I'll bet there must be at least a few other people out there that would rather never see the UI on the television screen and for those that would like the UI also on the television screen, there could be an option to give it to them.

I'll be willing to bet that we'll see this at CES sooner or later (probably within the next ten years.)


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

If most people wanted it that way, that's the way it would be. Maybe you think it's ideal for you, but it's certainly not for many others.
Other than many practical concerns, like display/control unit being too fragile, too expensive, to proprietary, and much too small for some people to read comfortably, in a ergonomic sense, it makes no sense to require people to shift their eyes and attention AWAY from the screen to operate the screen. This is why modern aircraft have Heads Up Displays, so that you can keep your eyes and attention on the main area of interest while you operate the system.

You are welcome to design any UI you like for your own use, but don't expect a big slice of the market to like it.
I'll take your bet. See you in 2017.

ApK


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

D*'s primary mission in life is to get subscribers. But does anyone actually choose their TV service provider based on their set top box? Maybe some, but I'm betting not many. I dumped cable because the signal quality from Adelphia was horrible. Other friends of mine switched to D* to save money. 

NDS has done a signficant disservice to D* by forcing them to abandon their TiVo relationship in favor of developing their own box. The immaturity and instability of these boxes has only served to lower D*'s otherwise excellent customer service stats. 

Surely Liberty is aware of the fact that nobody has made any money designing, manufacturing and selling DVRs. TiVo rules the roost in terms of market share and maturity, yet they are still losing money. The only reason I can think of for Liberty to continue designing their own DVRs is if they can come up with unique and compelling extensions to the D* service which need proprietary hardware and software for delivery.

But so far, as an HR20 user, I haven't seen or foreseen any advantage for D* from having their own boxes. I only see a lot of bad PR and a bunch of dissatisfied users.

The UI is meaningless. I was on DirecTivos from the beginning. I use HR20s now. Yes, I liked TiVo better. Simple, elegant, and reliable. No quirks. But I'm not going to dump D* because I am not a fan of the HR20. It will stabilize and I'll get used to it, like everyone else. I hated XP and Office XP when they launched too, but I've forgotten why I liked 98 and Office 97 better now.


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## Nivek (Sep 21, 2006)

brewer4 said:


> I still think D* should partner with Tivo and offer the choice.


Wouldn't it be cool if they partnered with ReplayTV? I've had mine for 7 or 8 years and only needed to powered down in a NY to CA move.

I think its interface is way more simple and speedy than Tivo (heck it is faster than my HR20 and it is 8 years old!)


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

ChrisMinCT said:


> But so far, as an HR20 user, I haven't seen or foreseen any advantage for D* from having their own boxes. I only see a lot of bad PR and a bunch of dissatisfied users.


Cheaper customer support by having one common UI across all receivers.
Don't have to pay Tivo.
Don't have to count on Tivo to fix bugs.
Can offer the "added value" stuff like Interactive and VOD.
I'm sure there are others. 

Now these may not seem to be an advantage to you or me but it certainly is for them.

By the way, I agree with you that UI just doesn't matter in the end to me. Channels and content rule the roost for most people, not the UI of their DVR.


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Cheaper customer support by having one common UI across all receivers.
> Don't have to pay Tivo.
> Don't have to count on Tivo to fix bugs.
> Can offer the "added value" stuff like Interactive and VOD.
> ...


An army of software engineers, a QA team, technical writers, additional technical support reps, are of far more cost than paying TiVo.

What bugs? I had 2 Series 1 and 2 Series 2 receivers. Didn't have any bugs. They all worked flawlessly.

And they could contract TiVo to do the Interactive channels and VOD. TiVo already does this for their cable companies anyway.

As to the common UI, all the DVRs were a common UI - it was TiVo.

And we had the added benefit of being able to choose receivers from among RCA, Hughes, Sony among others. And these companies had a lot of clout in ensuring that the software was bug free. And we could also choose to buy upgrades from companies like Weaknees when we needed more storage.

If there was an advantage to building your own box for these, the cable companies wouldn't be farming it out. They have a much bigger customer base than D* and would therefore stand to make a lot more profit than D* if there was profit to be made. No, this was Murdoch trying to beef up his DVR business. He had a captive audience and he abused it for that purpose.

I'm not saying they should just go back to TiVo either, though. I've worked with a bunch of set top box vendors and PC based DVR software vendors over the past 5 years. There are some really great products out there. If D* would just license their receivers like they used to, we could end up with some pretty sweet set top boxes.


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## Nivek (Sep 21, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Don't have to pay Tivo.


Exactly. I read somewhere that D* was paying upwards of $1 monthly to Tivo per DVR subscriber.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

ChrisMinCT said:


> What bugs? I had 2 Series 1 and 2 Series 2 receivers. Didn't have any bugs. They all worked flawlessly.


I'm not going to try to argue here but the DirecTivo's have had several software updates since they were first released in 2000/01. Any time DirecTV would want to add a feature or do something they have to go thru Tivo.

Just recently at the end of last year most of the Tivo's freaked out due to a change in the guide data stream. DirecTV could not fix it. They have to wait on Tivo to fix it.
DST issue in the Tivo's? Had to wait on Tivo to fix it and it only rolled out just in time. The non-Tivo units were fixed long ago.

Again, not trying to argue, just pointing out a few possible things. Obviously if DirecTV felt that Tivo was their best option they would have never gotten rid of Tivo in the first place. As has been posted many, many times we just don't know what went on behind closed doors between Tivo and DirecTV. It's a moot point anyway.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nivek said:


> Exactly. I read somewhere that D* was paying upwards of $1 monthly to Tivo per DVR subscriber.


Yea. It is around a $1.

If you have 2 million DirecTivo users that's 2 million dollars *a month* going to Tivo. That sure pays for a lot of developers and support people that ChrisMinCT thinks is costing more. 

AND that cost only goes up as more and more people get DVRs. 5 million subs? 5 million a month. OUCH.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Nivek said:


> Exactly. I read somewhere that D* was paying upwards of $1 monthly to Tivo per DVR subscriber.


And D* still raised its DVR fee from 4.99 a month to 5.99 a month.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Go compare that to what most cable companies charge for a DVR, especially if you want more than one. Or what TiVo charges for DVR service for that matter.


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## lewah33 (Nov 2, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Cheaper customer support by having one common UI across all receivers.
> Don't have to pay Tivo.
> Don't have to count on Tivo to fix bugs.
> Can offer the "added value" stuff like Interactive and VOD.
> ...


Have you ever talked to a D* CSR? I'm not sure the company can afford to have cheaper customer support. They don't train the CSRs anyway, so I'd have to believe the cost benefits of a common UI would be negligable.

Regardless, some of you like the HR20, some of us like TIVO. Many who are TIVO devotees only stay because of exclusive sports programming. Should D* loose exclusives on these sports, many of us will leave for another service provider that enables customers to choose.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

bidger said:


> Go compare that to what most cable companies charge for a DVR, especially if you want more than one. Or what TiVo charges for DVR service for that matter.


Yeah I know, you're right about that.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

ChrisMinCT said:


> But does anyone actually choose their TV service provider based on their set top box?


It's certainly one of the things I consider. I like the cable company that I get my Internet service from, but their DVR is garbage. The UI just feels slapped together, and it's flat out ugly. I also don't like how they put the local HD channels up in the 200s. DirecTV's method of using the same channel numbers is much better.

I'll admit I'm sure the vast majority of people don't even think about the things I've mentioned. But they're important to me!


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Yea. It is around a $1.
> 
> If you have 2 million DirecTivo users that's 2 million dollars *a month* going to Tivo. That sure pays for a lot of developers and support people that ChrisMinCT thinks is costing more.
> 
> AND that cost only goes up as more and more people get DVRs. 5 million subs? 5 million a month. OUCH.


So if they have $2M a month kicking around to develop a killer DVR, why do I have two beta units called HR20s for which I have now had 5 updates to in less than 3 months! And I still have audio dropouts (on SD channels, no less), and I still miss shows that don't get recorded and I still have to boot them every couple of days or they will crash and lock up and I still can't turn on and off closed captioning for my hearing impaired wife in less than 14 keys on the remote. And why are there 8 pages of postings for issues with the release that came out to a select few hundred users less than 2 days ago?

So what you are saying is that they are raking in a couple of million a month more in revenue, and we are getting what, exactly, for that? :nono: :nono2:


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## BobV (Dec 15, 2006)

D* should forget about Tivo and move on just like they have been doing!!
Tivo just would be a big birden on D*. Having someone else having control on 
your business is bad news and costly!!!!!!!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

EDIT: The post I replied to was removed. But I'll leave my response up. 

LOL, man you are funny. The only fact is that DirecTV pays about a $1 to Tivo for every DirecTivo box. Everything else I posted is pure speculation. Not sure how many time me or others have to post that nobody knows exactly why Tivo and DirecTV parted ways. Nobody. And the few suits in the board room that do know aren't talking. We'll know in a couple years if the move was a good one or a bad one. Basically if DirecTV keeps growing it was a good move for them. If it's a good move for us is a personal preference. But all DirecTV cares about is bottom line and sub growth. That shouldn't be any news to anyone, it's big business. Charlie does the same thing with Dish, only in his own way.

You guys kill me.


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

It may not be a cool idea to some, but i like the idea of a new hd tivo.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

mitchelljd said:


> It may not be a cool idea to some, but i like the idea of a new hd tivo.


Well then you'll be happy to know that it already exists, and you can buy it today.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

People (and I hope DirecTV) have to remember that there are thousands and thousands of DirecTV customers with SD Tivo's with no plans to get an HDTV in the near future. I'm amazed at the number of these people who have no ideal that analog will be turned off in 2009 or for that matter what analog or HDTV is, but that's another post. What I'm saying is that these people have no clue what DirecTV is offering now because they don't care or don't have a clue. To them Tivo is DirecTV. However these people in the next 2 to 5 years will start getting clued in and they will buy HDTV's. Again remember these people are not like the folks who post here and will not be up on the new DirecTV receivers. They will get their new TV and will call DirecTV to get the 100’s of HD channels that DirecTV will provide them and will assume that the receiver they get will be like what they have now. When they are given a non-Tivo box they are going to explode in DirecTV's face. If DirecTV thinks that the people complaining about the HR20 now is a loud vocal minority wait until these people come on the seen. I know when I was told that I could not return my (or I guess I should say their HR20 receiver) and was obligated to lease it for 2 years I lost my mind and I knew what I was getting because I read about it here. So just imagine what these people are going to do. DirecTV without a HD Tivo unit to replace the SD Tivo when the masses come online is in for a rude awaking. Even if the HR20 has most of the bugs worked out by then. 

And as for my HR20’s: After I lost my mind I started using them they are not that bad I guess; however my wife and 2 kids refuse to use them because they cannot or will not take the time to figure them out, and because it’s not Tivo. I have 2 HR20’s that replaced 2 SD Tivos. I’ve since bought another HD Tivo on ebay to replace my last SD Tivo and to make the family happy. So for now the HR20’s are rarely used as DVR’s and are only used to watch live TV in the Kitchen and bedroom. Also I reduced my DirecTV bill from around $120.00 a month for everything to around $50.00 a month. This includes a $10.00 a month discount that this vocal DirecTV customer got the supervisor to give me. Plus I was also given on 3 of my other vocal calls $100.00 credits so my bill will not be due for another few months. With my extra cash I’ve been checking out the cable competition in my area. I’ve tried cable card. I like it and it’s in serious contention for my money if I could only justify the cost of a Tivo Series 3 to use it with. I also lease a Motorola box that is a Joke and it’s going back as soon as they can pick it up. This thing makes the HR20 look like the greatest CE device around. It is a HD DVR with a 160GB hard drive! I recorded 2 half hour shows on HDTV HD and the hard drive is 10% full (In comparison both My Tivo’s have 2 400GB drives). So until Tivo drops the price on the Series 3 I most likely will stick with DirecTV only. I really can’t see paying DirecTV plus cable plus Tivo. No matter how I add things up my bill for TV will be over $200.00 a month and now that I got rid of all the premiums I kind of like paying less than $60 a month. This said I do think there is a market for the HR20 for people coming over from cable. The HR20 is nearly the same as the Motorola box except for the bigger HD and the UI is allot cleaner which makes a huge difference. The HR20 really should be DirecTV’s entry level box. It should cost nothing upfront to lease like cable and will only be available direct from DirecTV, and then they should offer the HD Tivo as the premium box that we will need to buy and hopefully own. Also I certainly believe that a smart company like DirecTV could develop a box that comes with the standard HR20 UI, but then when the customer calls to complain the DirecTV agent could give them the option to have the box upgraded to Tivo for a fee. Tivo upgrades that I’ve bought on the Web fit on CD’s so the file would not take up allot of space and a simple activation command could start the install. Half hour latter and a reboot, bam you now have a Tivo. I’m not sure how Tivo would feel about it but I’m sure it could be done and then DirecTV would still only have one HD and one SD receiver.

One other thing. I don't hate the HR20 as much as I hate the HR20's remote. I really wish Tivo would start a second company making univerisal remotes.


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## vikingguy (Aug 1, 2005)

I won't get into stability speed or IU but DLB is enough for me to want tivo. With out DLB sunday ticket and other sports packages are worthless to me. Nothing better than watching many different games at once thanks to DLB. It is a must have feature to me I use it almost daily.


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## ChrisMinCT (Dec 7, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> People (and I hope DirecTV) have to remember that there are thousands and thousands of DirecTV customers with SD Tivo's with no plans to get an HDTV in the near future. I'm amazed at the number of these people who have no ideal that analog will be turned off in 2009 or for that matter what analog or HDTV is, but that's another post. What I'm saying is that these people have no clue what DirecTV is offering now because they don't care or don't have a clue. To them Tivo is DirecTV. However these people in the next 2 to 5 years will start getting clued in and they will buy HDTV's. Again remember these people are not like the folks who post here and will not be up on the new DirecTV receivers. They will get their new TV and will call DirecTV to get the 100's of HD channels that DirecTV will provide them and will assume that the receiver they get will be like what they have now. When they are given a non-Tivo box they are going to explode in DirecTV's face. If DirecTV thinks that the people complaining about the HR20 now is a loud vocal minority wait until these people come on the seen. I know when I was told that I could not return my (or I guess I should say their HR20 receiver) and was obligated to lease it for 2 years I lost my mind and I knew what I was getting because I read about it here. So just imagine what these people are going to do. DirecTV without a HD Tivo unit to replace the SD Tivo when the masses come online is in for a rude awaking. Even if the HR20 has most of the bugs worked out by then.
> 
> And as for my HR20's: After I lost my mind I started using them they are not that bad I guess; however my wife and 2 kids refuse to use them because they cannot or will not take the time to figure them out, and because it's not Tivo. I have 2 HR20's that replaced 2 SD Tivos. I've since bought another HD Tivo on ebay to replace my last SD Tivo and to make the family happy. So for now the HR20's are rarely used as DVR's and are only used to watch live TV in the Kitchen and bedroom. Also I reduced my DirecTV bill from around $120.00 a month for everything to around $50.00 a month. This includes a $10.00 a month discount that this vocal DirecTV customer got the supervisor to give me. Plus I was also given on 3 of my other vocal calls $100.00 credits so my bill will not be due for another few months. With my extra cash I've been checking out the cable competition in my area. I've tried cable card. I like it and it's in serious contention for my money if I could only justify the cost of a Tivo Series 3 to use it with. I also lease a Motorola box that is a Joke and it's going back as soon as they can pick it up. This thing makes the HR20 look like the greatest CE device around. It is a HD DVR with a 160GB hard drive! I recorded 2 half hour shows on HDTV HD and the hard drive is 10% full (In comparison both My Tivo's have 2 400GB drives). So until Tivo drops the price on the Series 3 I most likely will stick with DirecTV only. I really can't see paying DirecTV plus cable plus Tivo. No matter how I add things up my bill for TV will be over $200.00 a month and now that I got rid of all the premiums I kind of like paying less than $60 a month. This said I do think there is a market for the HR20 for people coming over from cable. The HR20 is nearly the same as the Motorola box except for the bigger HD and the UI is allot cleaner which makes a huge difference. The HR20 really should be DirecTV's entry level box. It should cost nothing upfront to lease like cable and will only be available direct from DirecTV, and then they should offer the HD Tivo as the premium box that we will need to buy and hopefully own. Also I certainly believe that a smart company like DirecTV could develop a box that comes with the standard HR20 UI, but then when the customer calls to complain the DirecTV agent could give them the option to have the box upgraded to Tivo for a fee. Tivo upgrades that I've bought on the Web fit on CD's so the file would not take up allot of space and a simple activation command could start the install. Half hour latter and a reboot, bam you now have a Tivo. I'm not sure how Tivo would feel about it but I'm sure it could be done and then DirecTV would still only have one HD and one SD receiver.
> 
> One other thing. I don't hate the HR20 as much as I hate the HR20's remote. I really wish Tivo would start a second company making univerisal remotes.


I don't think people will freak out, though. It takes some adjustment, but its a pretty quick learning curve.

As a 20-year veteran product manager in high tech who has led the design teams on a number of high end projects, I watched with avvid interest as my techo-phobic wife made the transition from 5 years of DirecTiVos to the HR20. It took her several days to figure out how to create a Series Link. D* has improved this interface over the past several releases. She was very frustrated at first, but now she's OK with the improvements. She was very frustrated by Search. But she got used to it pretty quickly and she's OK with it now. The rest of the changes she absorbed with ease. And this is saying something. She hates learning new tech. Mostly because I make her learn it on her own and watch as an innocent sideliner to see how it goes for her.

The bugs have been the most frustrating for her. Missing her shows has almost sent her over the edge. I offered to set the DirecTiVo back up for her, but god bless her, she's hanging in there so far. She's a pretty happy camper now as she has not lost a show in a while. And she told me the other day that she didn't think she could go back to the TiVo now as she's finally got this DVR down.

By the time we get through the next dozen releases over the next 6 months, I think the HR20 will stabilize and they'll refine the core DVR interfaces to the point where new users won't freak out. Hopefully, they'll provide a TiVo withdrawal quick start guide for people like my wife!!


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

BobV said:


> D* should forget about Tivo and move on just like they have been doing!!
> Tivo just would be a big birden on D*. Having someone else having control on
> your business is bad news and costly!!!!!!!


Having someone else having control on your business is bad news and costly, sort of like the ability to get ota channels from the hr20 having nothing to do with what the hr20 can physically do, but being kept in a list maintained by someone else?


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

mr anderson said:


> I'm sorry but aside from DLB I fail to see what the HR10 has that the HR20 doesn't? Granted, a new tivo box could be issued (that would increase the speeds of the ui) but I don't see that happening.
> 
> Edit: Okay, I have to admit that even I would pay extra to use a tivo dvr with d*tv.


DING!

I was ready for the HR20... READY! REALLY wanted to upgrade but waited....

Maybe with 'more' time it will get there. I hope down the line with DLB.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

brewer4 said:


> I've moved most of my watching to the HR20 but I still think D* should partner with Tivo and offer the choice. I remember reading they would offer 2 flavors. A cheaper D* version and a premium Tivo one and charge slightly more. I think there is room for 2 options and I know there will be plenty of folks willing to pay a slight premium to keep their Tivo. I know my wife would.


I'm thrilled with the HR20 and would prefer not be forced into TiVo nor would I pay a dime extra for TiVo.


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

brittonx said:


> I'm thrilled with the HR20 and would prefer not be forced into TiVo nor would I pay a dime extra for TiVo.


Same here, I don't have any problems with both my units. Both are two tuner and OTA enabled, one is networked. I don't have any issues such as missed recordings and the such. I sold my two HR10s on Ebay back in December and haven't looked back.


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## DFDureiko (Feb 20, 2006)

I sort of agree with Kapeman. I hated the R15 so much, it was so buggy, not recording things for no reason I paid 175 on ebay for an R10. But our HR20 has been so stable, I have to admit I'm pretty happy with it. DLB would be nice, and FF thru commercials is easier w/TiVo (must be one of the patented things?). Maybe I'm just used to it.
I know in trying to use my friends new VIP622, it was VERY confusing. She had it for 6 weeks and had to wait for me to get there to figure out how to set up a series link!
Too bad Apple didn't come out with a DVR system, that would have been something.
Dan


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## Steve Robertson (Jun 7, 2005)

brittonx said:


> I'm thrilled with the HR20 and would prefer not be forced into TiVo nor would I pay a dime extra for TiVo.


I agree with you on this I really like this box. So far.......................


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

DFDureiko said:


> Too bad Apple didn't come out with a DVR system, that would have been something.
> Dan


I believe they announced one at CES, Apple TV I think it was called. To compete with Windows Media Center.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I believe they announced one at CES, Apple TV I think it was called. To compete with Windows Media Center.


AppleTV has no DVR capabilities.


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## michael-reilly (Mar 18, 2007)

I hope DTV does not go back to TiVO. I was sold on the HR20 when I found
out it did not have TiVO at all. We have an HR10 and now the HR20. The
HR10 is in the bedroom out of the way.

Including the HR20 I have used 4 UI's with DTV. In my opinion TiVO is the
worst of the 4. It is the least intuitive and has the least functionality
of any of the UIs.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

michael-reilly said:


> I hope DTV does not go back to TiVO. I was sold on the HR20 when I found
> out it did not have TiVO at all. We have an HR10 and now the HR20. The
> HR10 is in the bedroom out of the way.
> 
> ...


Excuse me. I wet myself laughing.

And so glad you are anti-others have options.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

tonyd79 said:


> Excuse me. I wet myself laughing.
> 
> And so glad you are anti-others have options.


For all of those who love the Tivo UI there are many who don't. I honestly think it looks very cartoony and when I use my S2 Tivos I find many things are not logical. I also think the HR20 is very industrial looking and needs a little more glitz and also has some things in very illogical places. Not sure what the perfect UI is I just no neither DTV or Tivo have come up with it yet.


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## brownclown (Feb 28, 2007)

Clint Lamor said:


> For all of those who love the Tivo UI there are many who don't. I honestly think it looks very cartoony and when I use my S2 Tivos I find many things are not logical. I also think the HR20 is very industrial looking and needs a little more glitz and also has some things in very illogical places. Not sure what the perfect UI is I just no neither DTV or Tivo have come up with it yet.


 Replay TV had it, it was the best imop. Tivo's advertising killed it off slowly. 6 years ago I bought one, everything worked. Commercial skip, schedule recordings away from home, etc. UI WAS EXCELLENT.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

I know Replay TV had its fans. Other folks would say UltimateTV, others would say the Dish DVR platforms, there are fans of Windows MCE, and the DIY folks like the open source ones they build.

People are quick to jump on TiVo as the "face" of DVR, but I bet if you took those using alternatives, I'm fairly certain their numbers would eclipse TiVo's sub numbers.

Yeah, I've been using TiVo for 6 and a half years and it's a fine DVR platforms, but after checking out alternatives I have to say it's no longer my only solution. I shut "Suggestions" off on every TiVo I've had because I can set recordings for more than enough stuff to watch and the "Wishlists" I set tend to be so obscure I'm amazed when it actually yields something. 

I really like being able to check the Guide or Menu when I'm watching a recording and I find it irks me that I can't do that with TiVo. The fact that they've gone this long with no Free Space Indicator just boggles my mind. I personally want a heads up when space is low, not to have to do a lot of math.

To me the programming comes first followed by cost. Then I worry about the features/equipment. If a DVR platform starts offering programming, that'll be the day I start following one.


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## Nivek (Sep 21, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> For all of those who love the Tivo UI there are many who don't. I honestly think it looks very cartoony and when I use my S2 Tivos I find many things are not logical. I also think the HR20 is very industrial looking and needs a little more glitz and also has some things in very illogical places. Not sure what the perfect UI is I just no neither DTV or Tivo have come up with it yet.


You're absolutely right. Each of us have our own opinions on what a good UI is for a DVR. Personally, I like the ReplayTV interface the best, think that the HR20 is OK, but the Tivo and Windows Media Center interfaces are the pitts. But hey, that is just my humble opinion and you know what they say about opinions...

It would be great if D* offered choices for interfaces (with the associated cost adjustments). I'm sure the tune would change if they said that the HR20 is customizable with the Tivo interface for $8.95 a month, the Replay interface for$7.95 a month, and the D* interface for $6.95 a month.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

bidger said:


> I know Replay TV had its fans. Other folks would say UltimateTV, others would say the Dish DVR platforms, there are fans of Windows MCE, and the DIY folks like the open source ones they build.


Don't forget the TV Guide On Screen UI too. Is anyone else familar with this one? I have 2 Sony DHG-HDD500's that us this, and for me its pretty simple, but then again, its all about what you are used to. After a while, I think anyone can get used to any UI that they have in front of them, it just takes time.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Nivek said:


> You're absolutely right. Each of us have our own opinions on what a good UI is for a DVR. Personally, I like the ReplayTV interface the best, think that the HR20 is OK, but the Tivo and Windows Media Center interfaces are the pitts. But hey, that is just my humble opinion and you know what they say about opinions...
> 
> It would be great if D* offered choices for interfaces (with the associated cost adjustments). I'm sure the tune would change if they said that the HR20 is customizable with the Tivo interface for $8.95 a month, the Replay interface for$7.95 a month, and the D* interface for $6.95 a month.


Agreed. In truth, I like the HR20 GUI. I'm not married to any GUI. I'd take a GUI that just shows plain Courier font text, as long as the device performs in a consistent manner and provides an enjoyable experience. I just want something that reliably records programs and plays them back, with as few audio/video anomalies as possible. The GUI is so secondary it's not even on my radar.

When I sit down with a beer or glass of wine to watch television, I just want to be entertained and not have to work at it. A DVR that doesn't perform is like a record that skips, or a theatrical movie where the film breaks. I just find it intolerable, from any vendor, if it happens in a consistent manner. I realize every DVR has its woes. But, at least for me, my two Philips DirecTiVos really have performed flawlessly. The TiVo GUI was goofy, but I was able to schedule recordings and play them back without audio/video disruption. So, at least for me, TiVo rocks, up to this point.

I'm sure if I had a different TiVo box, or one released years earlier, I'd be complaining about that too, as I'd experience the TiVo bugs many have reported.

Truth be told, I'd complain about any device that didn't perform as expected, with allowances for some problems, as I expect no device to be totally perfect. But I do expect them to at least somewhat consistently perform as advertised. When they don't (as with my HR20), I get annoyed. When I get annoyed, I tend to want to get even, especially when I find it will cost me money to get away from the thing that annoys me (ie, the 2-year commitment). Don't get me wrong. Being a DTV customer since the 1994 test market days, I've been their customer for more years than many who frequent this forum. I love DTV. I just have really high expectations, as the 1994-2006 years have offered me flawless, and I really mean FLAWLESS, performance and customer service.

So I'm struggling with my relationship with DTV, due to my HR20 experience. I hang on, as 12 years of a good marriage shouldn't be negated by three months of discord. But for me, yes, I would love DTV to reestablish a relationship with TiVo. I realize it's unlikely/improbable, but at least for my house, it holds the promise of renewing the relationship I once treasured.


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## TheDurk (Mar 8, 2007)

I have a month on my HR20, upgrading from SDTivo's (so I am new here, coming over from TivoCommunity). I like the unit, and the graphic interface. The menu structure is demented (CC argh!), and context sensitive to me seems to mean the same button does different things in different places--and I HATE that. But the worst is that GD remote. The button layout in the transport section is impossible to learn unless you are a PS3/XBox type. Finding the right button on that circle in the dark is ridiculous. The non-arrow keys in the navigation section are equally horrible in the absence of logic in their layout. BACK does not go back in several situations. 

I finally went back to my One for All 8910's and mapped the keys the same way I had them on the Tivo's--life got a lot better. What the user touches is as important to the UI as what the user sees....


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

TheDurk said:


> I have a month on my HR20, upgrading from SDTivo's (so I am new here, coming over from TivoCommunity). I like the unit, and the graphic interface. The menu structure is demented (CC argh!), and context sensitive to me seems to mean the same button does different things in different places--and I HATE that. But the worst is that GD remote. The button layout in the transport section is impossible to learn unless you are a PS3/XBox type. Finding the right button on that circle in the dark is ridiculous. The non-arrow keys in the navigation section are equally horrible in the absence of logic in their layout. BACK does not go back in several situations.
> 
> I finally went back to my One for All 8910's and mapped the keys the same way I had them on the Tivo's--life got a lot better. What the user touches is as important to the UI as what the user sees....


First thing I ever do with a new piece of electronics is program it into my MX-700 and put the original remote into the remote graveyard.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

To me, a good UI is the sizzle that sells the steak. 

Personally, I think the HR20 UI gets a B and the remote gets a C-. But I've heard that D* may be tuning up the UI (read this in another thread here, so it's certainly not official!).

I read all the good things on the HR20, so I sent D* an e-mail asking for 'upgrade' details. I've been a customer since 1997 (A-List) and all I got back was a form e-mail saying to go use the website. If this is how they treat their A-List folks, how do they treat the rest of their customers?


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> To me, a good UI is the sizzle that sells the steak.


A PRETTY UI sizzle.

A GOOD UI is critical to the operation of the system.

There are some fairly objective ergonomic concerns and UI tenents that make a UI overtly good or bad, say, for 80% of the audience. That other 20% is in the "you can't please everyone" category.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

vikingguy said:


> I won't get into stability speed or IU but DLB is enough for me to want tivo. With out DLB sunday ticket and other sports packages are worthless to me. Nothing better than watching many different games at once thanks to DLB. It is a must have feature to me I use it almost daily.


Without CIR, the HR20 is not even a DVR, for sports fans, that is. You cannot autorecord your favorite team on an extended package, so what's the point?

And, yes, I will be watching the Islanders game tonight on TiVo yet again. Why, because the HR20 REFUSES to schedule the recording again! Won't do it, no way!


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I read all the good things on the HR20, so I sent D* an e-mail asking for 'upgrade' details. I've been a customer since 1997 (A-List) and all I got back was a form e-mail saying to go use the website. If this is how they treat their A-List folks, how do they treat the rest of their customers?


You got a reply?


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## ronrico51 (Feb 13, 2007)

Nivek said:


> Exactly. I read somewhere that D* was paying upwards of $1 monthly to Tivo per DVR subscriber.


If D* would offer a Tivo replacement for the HR20, but charged and extra $2 a month , I would glady pay it. When I got my first Tivo about 3 years ago, the WOW factor was amazing. When I got the HR20, the YUK factor, while not amazing, was real. Many folks seem to separate UI from functionality. I don't mean basic funtionality like being able to record and play back video (something that the HR20 is only adequate at), but functionality like search, wishlists, screen display, etc. The Tivo absolutely destroys the HR20 in this area. Many of you seem to prefer the HR20 display, it certainly is a matter of preference. I hate the grid guide, loved the Tivo guide. With Tivo you had your choice. I hate the PIP, what a waste of screen real estate, I'd much rather have more guide info, or whatever else I'm looking for at the moment. The list goes on, DLB at the top, vastly superior search, etc.
Peace.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

F'in'-A, Bubba.


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

ronrico51 said:


> If D* would offer a Tivo replacement for the HR20, but charged and extra $2 a month , I would glady pay it. When I got my first Tivo about 3 years ago, the WOW factor was amazing. When I got the HR20, the YUK factor, while not amazing, was real. Many folks seem to separate UI from functionality. I don't mean basic funtionality like being able to record and play back video (something that the HR20 is only adequate at), but functionality like search, wishlists, screen display, etc. The Tivo absolutely destroys the HR20 in this area. Many of you seem to prefer the HR20 display, it certainly is a matter of preference. I hate the grid guide, loved the Tivo guide. With Tivo you had your choice. I hate the PIP, what a waste of screen real estate, I'd much rather have more guide info, or whatever else I'm looking for at the moment. The list goes on, DLB at the top, vastly superior search, etc.
> Peace.


Well when you're watching the PIP on a 65" screen it's not a waste of real estate.

I had the HR10-250 the first week it came out. Had problems with that unit's hard drive by December after an update. Replacement unit I had until recently had random reboots.

I've had my HR20 since it came out in August 2006, never missed a recording, via satellite, and OTA once it was activated. The machine has had only 1 lock-up for an unresponsive remote back in December. It's much faster IMO and hated the "please wait" crap whenever I recorded something on the HR10.

I was used to the TiVo, hated the HR20 interface when I first got it, now I love it...

Goodbye HR10-250.


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## ronrico51 (Feb 13, 2007)

VeniceDre said:


> Well when you're watching the PIP on a 65" screen it's not a waste of real estate.
> 
> Goodbye HR10-250.


Size of screen doesn't matter. The same percentage of the screen is used for the various parts of the display. The HR20 guide only shows 6 channels at a time for a 2 hour time period. It takes a lot of scrolling around to see more. The top 2/5 of the screen is used by info plus the PIP. This may not seem like a big deal, but I was used to the Tivo guide, much more info, and easier to see. Though, if you liked the grid guide that the HR20 uses, that is available too. When you do a search only 5 results are shown. less than half the screen is used for what counts, the results. The rest is wasted.
I really miss the part of the Tivo history that tells you why a program was not or will not be recorded. Etc., etc., blah, blah.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

I for one have become disappointed with DirecTV because of its lack of receivers. I would love to see a DirecTV of old where several companies made receivers for DirecTV and we could all choose the box we liked and everyone was happy. Now DirecTV has taken me down a road where I'm stuck with 2 receivers me and my family do not like for 2 years. I'm sure there are many fans of the HR-20 out there but my family is not one of them. 

One other thing if DirecTV is reading this. I'm sure when the new HD content starts I will start using the HR20 more and I will get used to it but it will be no different than cable. DirecTV has over 20 customers that I brought their way because of their Tivo box, and they all thanked me for it. These same people have been warned about the HR-20 and its 2 year lease agreement. I'm sure some of them would like it but with DirecTV's 2 year contract I doubt they will be switching anytime soon.


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

ronrico51 said:


> Size of screen doesn't matter. The same percentage of the screen is used for the various parts of the display. The HR20 guide only shows 6 channels at a time for a 2 hour time period. It takes a lot of scrolling around to see more. The top 2/5 of the screen is used by info plus the PIP. This may not seem like a big deal, but I was used to the Tivo guide, much more info, and easier to see. Though, if you liked the grid guide that the HR20 uses, that is available too. When you do a search only 5 results are shown. less than half the screen is used for what counts, the results. The rest is wasted.
> I really miss the part of the Tivo history that tells you why a program was not or will not be recorded. Etc., etc., blah, blah.


I'd just rather be able to continue watching/hearing the program while looking through the guide or in the menu... even with the transparent guide you couldn't really see whay was going on... size does matter by the way


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Well then you'll be happy to know that it already exists, and you can buy it today.


well, this doesn't work with Directv, it's a cable card receiver.

Coming to talk here at DBS Talk is very much like a Rebel coming to the Death Star to get advice from Stormtroopers.

Here, everyone is so tied into the "beta" testing program that it feels like any contrary opinion isn't welcome.

I have to hand it to Directv, they really did a great job in co-opting the opposition.

My HR20 crashes still, but here people would say that these things are reliable and trustworthy. Hell, i think the option of a new Tivo based HD Directv solution would be a great idea to many, just not to some of the heavy users here.


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> I for one have become disappointed with DirecTV because of its lack of receivers. I would love to see a DirecTV of old where several companies made receivers for DirecTV and we could all choose the box we liked and everyone was happy. Now DirecTV has taken me down a road where I'm stuck with 2 receivers me and my family do not like for 2 years. I'm sure there are many fans of the HR-20 out there but my family is not one of them.


im with you!!


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## jal (Mar 3, 2005)

Ditto. Bring back TIVO! I truly enjoy the suggestions feature, comming home and seeing what was recorded.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bafuerst said:


> One other thing if DirecTV is reading this. I'm sure when the new HD content starts I will start using the HR20 more and I will get used to it but it will be no different than cable. DirecTV has over 20 customers that I brought their way because of their Tivo box, and they all thanked me for it. These same people have been warned about the HR-20 and its 2 year lease agreement. I'm sure some of them would like it but with DirecTV's 2 year contract I doubt they will be switching anytime soon.


Not quite sure what the 2 year commitment has to do with it. Activating *any* HD or DVR receiver has a 2 year commitment on it for a year now, including Tivo's.

I agree, choice is good. But choice comes at a great cost in development and especially support. DirecTV decided that they will save more by geting the GUI's nearly the same on all receivers then they will lose from a few thousand die hard Tivo owners.


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

mitchelljd said:


> well, this doesn't work with Directv, it's a cable card receiver.
> 
> Coming to talk here at DBS Talk is very much like a Rebel coming to the Death Star to get advice from Stormtroopers.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with most of what you've said. I've never used a stronger word than "unreliabe" to describe the HR20 in any of my posts, yet I get descended upon by a moderator any time I don't advocate my love for the HR20. I own an HR20 and plan to continue to own one. The HR20 is a metal box with electronics inside it. Not a member of your family.

Those that are saying they have absolutely no problems with the HR20. I just don't understand it. These (many) national version releases are just what they say, "national". That means these are going to every single HR20, not just to a small minority of selected serial numbers or access cards. So every HR20 needed it. My fast forward and fast reverse are awful and I've contacted DirecTV about it. They themselves now admit on the phone (and in writing) that they are having problems with fast forward and reverse. Yet you read posts saying some are having absolutely zero problems. It doesn't seem to add up.

There are already DirecTivo HD boxes out there now. I actually was going to buy one instead but the salesman convinced me not to, saying I would not be able to get the new MPEG4 stations if or when DirecTV added them late this fall. From what I understand, for the most part that is true. I do think a fair solution to for the customers would be to somehow allow modifications to the DirecTivo boxes so they could decode the new MPEG4 stations, and offer HR20 users the option of keeping the HR20 or going to a DirecTivo box and get the same amount of HD programming. It just seems like the right thing to do. But that would probably cost DirecTV $$$.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> These same people have been warned about the HR-20 and its 2 year lease agreement.


It's not a '2 year lease agreement.' The "leasing" aspect of the equipment is totally unrelated to the two year service commitment.

The service commitment means you need to keep subscribing to DTV or pay some penalty for early cancellation, it is not related to the paying of the monthly lease fee for any receiver.

In other words, if you get a new HR20, you'll likely be agreeing to a new 2 year commitment to keep DTV, but you do NOT have to keep paying the lease fee on that H20 at all. You can deactivate it tomorrow, put it on a shelf and stop paying the lease fee with no problem, but you do have to keep subscribing to DTV.

I just don't want folks to get the wrong idea.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Not quite sure what the 2 year commitment has to do with it. Activating *any* HD or DVR receiver has a 2 year commitment on it for a year now, including Tivo's.
> 
> I agree, choice is good. But choice comes at a great cost in development and especially support. DirecTV decided that they will save more by geting the GUI's nearly the same on all receivers then they will lose from a few thousand die hard Tivo owners.


I'm sorry maybe I should have been a bit clearer on the lease thing in my post. It's not the lease so much I have a problem with. What I'm mad as hell about is the fact that as soon as I got the HR20's I did not like them and they did not work but DirecTV would not let me return them and get out of the lease. Funny thing is they where able to credit most of the money I paid for them to my account. So I didn't try to get out of the lease, funny how mentioning the words states attorney general make companies open there pocket book.

Making customers unhappy comes at a cost also. If DirecTV only losses a few thousand Tivo owners they will be lucky. I would put the figure more into the 100's of thousands over the next 5 years but that's just a guess and includes people that are not Directv Customers now but would become DirecTV customers if they had Tivo. One thing you need to remember is that for every unhappy customer that is vocal and calls DirecTV to complain there are 10 that are not, but you can be sure that all of their family and friends are hearing about their problems with DirecTV. Bad word of mouth has sent more companies into bankruptcy that anything else. That and fixing the books but that's for another forum.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> DirecTV would not let me return them and get out of the lease.


You get out of the 'LEASE' by just deactiviting the reciever. No more lease fee.

You are talking about getting out the service commitment. That's different.

It does not make any sense that if you had problem with the unit and wanted to return it that they would not end the deal. Maybe you should call back and speak to someone else. Or threaten to cancel over it and speak to retention.

Or maybe the CSR was confused by your calling it a 'lease.'


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bafuerst said:


> Making customers unhappy comes at a cost also. If DirecTV only losses a few thousand Tivo owners they will be lucky. I would put the figure more into the 100's of thousands over the next 5 years but that's just a guess and includes people that are not Directv Customers now but would become DirecTV customers if they had Tivo. One thing you need to remember is that for every unhappy customer that is vocal and calls DirecTV to complain there are 10 that are not, but you can be sure that all of their family and friends are hearing about their problems with DirecTV. Bad word of mouth has sent more companies into bankruptcy that anything else. That and fixing the books but that's for another forum.


Those of us on these forums tend to forget that 98% of the people out there don't even know they have a "Tivo" or they think any DVR is a Tivo. 

Most people are driven to a programming provider by the....programming. Not the DVR OS or UI. Sure, that may not be the case for a few diehards on these forums but for Joe Sixpack, 98% of the customer base, programming is king. What DVR they have just doesn't matter.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

ApK said:


> It's not a '2 year lease agreement.' The "leasing" aspect of the equipment is totally unrelated to the two year service commitment.
> 
> The service commitment means you need to keep subscribing to DTV or pay some penalty for early cancellation, it is not related to the paying of the monthly lease fee for any receiver.
> 
> ...


That's not true. I was told I could return the receivers to Circuit City but I would have to contuine to pay the lease fee for 2 years. I was also given the option to buy the receivers at something like $800 each, and then I would be out of the lease/commitment and could do what I wanted.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Those of us on these forums tend to forget that 98% of the people out there don't even know they have a "Tivo" or they think any DVR is a Tivo.
> 
> Most people are driven to a programming provider by the....programming. Not the DVR OS or UI. Sure, that may not be the case for a few diehards on these forums but for Joe Sixpack, 98% of the customer base, programming is king. What DVR they have just doesn't matter.


Your definition of an average Joe sixpack is very different from the ones I've met. You're correct in saying that most people don't know what they have though, which was my point to begin with. And I would agree with you if you where talking about people coming from cable to DirecTV, they would have no problem with the HR20 at all. However the Tivo good or bad is very different from any other receiver the average Joe have been using and he is going to be lost with the HR20 or any other basic DVR receiver from cable or satellite. These people will not realize that the HR20 is easier to use which I believe it is. They will see it as another complicated piece of technology that they will never be able to learn just because it is different.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

I prefer Tivo. The interface is much better and has more options then the HR20 I would prefer that D go back to the TIvo. I muss the suggestions and other features tivo offered that you cant get on any other reciever. 
|I hate the new ineterface directv has it is so blah and its not user friendly.


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## PeaceOfMind (Sep 14, 2006)

I hope Directv goes back with Tivo. I have the HR10-250 and the HR20. It is Work to program the HR20 but if we are stuck with the HR20, I hope the new HD channels come soon, since Directv has already raised the monthly rates. On a day, when I feel as if I want my fingers to have a good work out, I program the HR20 to record programs....and on the days when I want to get the programing done fast, I program the HR10 in a matter of minutes and sit back and relax. The Tivo HR10 is more like a car that has an automatic transmission and the HR20 is more like a straight Stick Shift....I like the automatic but some like to shift their own gears. Different people like to drive different boxes. If enough people cry for Tivo to be returned, even a Billionaire will listen(when a company starts to lose money, a Billionaire is all ears). I hope this DVR format war is over soon and I hope that our Real War(Iraq), is over soon.
Peace.

Most problems can be solved with, down to earth, common sense....until the profit of a dollar is added to the equation.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

ibooksrule said:


> I prefer Tivo. The interface is much better and has more options then the HR20


"Better" is subjective, but more options? I have to call you out on that one. Please explain.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

PeaceOfMind said:


> On a day, when I feel as if I want my fingers to have a good work out, I program the HR20 to record programs....and on the days when I want to get the programing done fast, I program the HR10 in a matter of minutes and sit back and relax.


Huh? 

On the HR20 I simply bring up the guide, hit one button to record, hit it twice for a season pass. The *Tivo* is the one you have to go thru acrobatics to setup a recording. I can do "info" on HBO for example and quickly setup more then a dozen movies to record over the next 2 weeks in about a minute or so.

So I'm not quite understanding why you think the HR20 is so complicated to setup recordings. It's probably the one thing that most agree on is better then the Tivo.

So I'm just curious as to your perspective.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Oh, I remember the days of programming a show to record on a HR10 in the 3.1.x days. It was sheer joy waiting 5 minutes for a simple record confirmation.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Wasn't the rumor that part of the reason Liberty was attempting to take over DirecTV was to re-attempt the merger with Dish Network.

True, it was initially shot down, but the climate has changed slightly with increased penetration of Phone Companies entering the TV market... and rumors are that the XM/Sirius merger actually has a shot at getting done. That will be the one to watch... if it does it might end up meaning everyone gets a Vip622 instead.


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## lewah33 (Nov 2, 2006)

PeaceOfMind said:


> I hope Directv goes back with Tivo. I have the HR10-250 and the HR20. It is Work to program the HR20 but if we are stuck with the HR20, I hope the new HD channels come soon, since Directv has already raised the monthly rates. On a day, when I feel as if I want my fingers to have a good work out, I program the HR20 to record programs....and on the days when I want to get the programing done fast, I program the HR10 in a matter of minutes and sit back and relax. The Tivo HR10 is more like a car that has an automatic transmission and the HR20 is more like a straight Stick Shift....I like the automatic but some like to shift their own gears. Different people like to drive different boxes. If enough people cry for Tivo to be returned, even a Billionaire will listen(when a company starts to lose money, a Billionaire is all ears). I hope this DVR format war is over soon and I hope that our Real War(Iraq), is over soon.
> Peace.
> 
> Most problems can be solved with, down to earth, common sense....until the profit of a dollar is added to the equation.


I sgree - please D*, sign a new agreement with Tivo. At least have a conversation with them! Don't tie yourself to theNDS legacy! I speak for many on this board and many other friends who are D* users - "LET US DECIDE"


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## ronrico51 (Feb 13, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Those of us on these forums tend to forget that 98% of the people out there don't even know they have a "Tivo" or they think any DVR is a Tivo.
> 
> Most people are driven to a programming provider by the....programming. Not the DVR OS or UI. Sure, that may not be the case for a few diehards on these forums but for Joe Sixpack, 98% of the customer base, programming is king. What DVR they have just doesn't matter.


People probably use price as the primary motivator in picking a provider. Programming does not vary much between cable and sat, at least here in the great north. (the exception is of course the sports packages). The HD channel selections are all but identical. The future is HD, and I expect both cable and sat will be primarily HD in less than 3 years. We are getting closer to the tipping point, where the majority of viewers will have HD. I see it in my workplace, a lower middle class bunch. DVRs will continue to grow in popularity, unless the providers and advertisers figure out a way to kill them. When they do, the market will become more educated, and "any old dvr" will not do. It's good business sense to develop or use the best machine available. I agree that joe sixpack does not have a clue about the differences in dvrs, but it is foolish to think it will stay that way.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dhaakenson said:


> Agreed. In truth, I like the HR20 GUI. I'm not married to any GUI. I'd take a GUI that just shows plain Courier font text, as long as the device performs in a consistent manner and provides an enjoyable experience. I just want something that reliably records programs and plays them back, with as few audio/video anomalies as possible. The GUI is so secondary it's not even on my radar.
> 
> When I sit down with a beer or glass of wine to watch television, I just want to be entertained and not have to work at it. A DVR that doesn't perform is like a record that skips, or a theatrical movie where the film breaks. I just find it intolerable, from any vendor, if it happens in a consistent manner. I realize every DVR has its woes. But, at least for me, my two Philips DirecTiVos really have performed flawlessly. The TiVo GUI was goofy, but I was able to schedule recordings and play them back without audio/video disruption. So, at least for me, TiVo rocks, up to this point.
> 
> ...


I think if I have learned anything about the HR20 it is that they (D*) screwed up by releasing it too early. The public should never be subjected to being used as a test bed for any device.

That said, I think D* probably made the decision to not allow anyone else to make their own DVRs that would be compatable with D*s MPEG2 and MPEG4 transmissions strictly because of business decisions. If they lease one million HR20s in the next year, won't they be able to claim them as an asset and as the technology improves as a business loss?

By the same token, you have to have some sympathy for D*. Have had many years of good service and dependable service and most importantly, a great picture. Imagine how much money this fiasco has cost them? And I do believe in the HR20.


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## celticpride (Sep 6, 2006)

I love my HD-tivo so much that even though i paid $1,000 for it i would gladly pay directv another $100.00 to upgrade it to mpeg 4 capability and commit to 5 MORE YEARS WITH THEM!!


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## Budget_HT (Jun 4, 2003)

I switched to DirecTV in 1999 for two clear reasons:

1. Cable TV in my area was unreliable (many outages far too frequently) and the cable company was unresponsive and could not even troubleshoot their own problems.

2. DirecTiVo with the promise of dual tuner operation (which came to us within a year). I evaluated stand-alone TiVo (single tuner, re-encode from analog video and audio) vs. DirecTiVo (dual tuner with direct digital recording of MPEG-2 video and Dolby Digital 5.1 or PCM audio).

If DirecTV abandons TiVo, and if Comcast has a successful TiVo over Moto implementation, I will seriously consider moving back to cable (which, by the way, is far more reliable than it was when I left, as proven by my limited basic $12 cable and my cable modem service).

DirecTV, let's see you make a serious offer to we happy DirecTiVo customers before we leave. An HR 20 or an R15 would not be a serious offer due to missing functionality and lack of reliability, as reported herein.


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## Mike P (Feb 10, 2007)

I would love it if Direct TV & Tivo got back together. We've gone though a few HR20's and we still love our R10 Tivo unit (bedroom). We call it "Ole Reliable"


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## jjcaudle (Sep 29, 2006)

Just cruising along with S3 Tivo....No HR20 POS....Tivo is better!


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

I'm probably going to switch to E* in the fall, but if D* went back to Tivo, I'd re-up for another contract.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

man_rob said:


> I'm probably going to switch to E* in the fall, but if D* went back to Tivo, I'd re-up for another contract.


But E* doesn't have Tivo either. 

Waiting until fall is a good plan since that is when we'll see all the new HD go up on D*, hopefully E*will announce something by then as to what they want to do to complete and you can make a good comparison.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> But E* doesn't have Tivo either.
> 
> Waiting until fall is a good plan since that is when we'll see all the new HD go up on D*, hopefully E*will announce something by then as to what they want to do to complete and you can make a good comparison.


But E*'s DVR gets better reviews than either the HR20 or the Tivo. Plus, with E* I'll get the DVR for free. I will wait for fall, to see how the HD programming is shaping up.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4321-6474_7-6546224.html?tag=feat.1


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

When it comes to receivers like this, I would never go by reviews on the net like CNet. Hop over the Dish forums here or at Satguys to get a true picture of the E* DVRs. I'm not saying they are bad or good, but trying to help you get properly informed.

Historically E*'s DVRs have been panned as the worst in the industry although I think they have gotten a lot better in the past year or so. Just FYI. I have no personal experience with one however other then a friend that has one. He likes it, but I always thought my DirecTivo was better.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> But E* doesn't have Tivo either.
> 
> Waiting until fall is a good plan since that is when we'll see all the new HD go up on D*, hopefully E*will announce something by then as to what they want to do to complete and you can make a good comparison.


You may love DirecTV but the fact is many people are angry at DirecTV because they released their DVR too soon with bugs and abandoned the Tivo which I have never heard anyone complain about. When a company makes people angry many if not most of them do not like to continue to give that company money! Why is that so hard for any of you diehard DirecTV fans to understand? Plus DirecTV has now made it even easier to switch because their DVR is no different than the competitions. Sure it may have a cleaner UI but compared to what I've seen from cable or Dish it's just a basic DVR.

Also you may say it's just about the programming. Yes and no. Cable and Dish will catch up to DirecTV when their 100's of HD channels come online. So that's no big deal. Plus think about this. Driving a Car is just about getting from point A to point B but we don't all drive the same car do we. People like choice and when they pay a premium ($300 to lease a HR20) they expect a premium product not the same basic DVR like every other company has.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> People like choice and when they pay a premium ($300 to lease a HR20) they expect a premium product not the same basic DVR like every other company has.


What's it missing that Tivo has? Wish Lists (partially), Suggestions, and DLB. DLB is probably the biggest thing on that list, and even then it was only used by a relatively small number of people. Wish Lists is duplicated pretty well on the HR20, and most people just found Suggestions to be annoying.

I wouldn't call the HR20 "the same basic DVR every other company has." If you have ever used a cable company DVR, you'd realize that the HR20 is far superior. It may not have many more features (although most cable DVRs can't do music and photos) but it certainly works a whole lot better.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> What's it missing that Tivo has? Wish Lists (partially), Suggestions, and DLB. DLB is probably the biggest thing on that list, and even then it was only used by a relatively small number of people. Wish Lists is duplicated pretty well on the HR20, and most people just found Suggestions to be annoying.
> 
> I wouldn't call the HR20 "the same basic DVR every other company has." If you have ever used a cable company DVR, you'd realize that the HR20 is far superior. It may not have many more features (although most cable DVRs can't do music and photos) but it certainly works a whole lot better.


I have a Motorola phone company DVR I've been trying out and besides the cleaned up UI and bigger hard drive it's the same. Same grid guide, same dual tuners without a double buffer, and same way to record one show (press record once), or series (press record twice). When the guy started showing me how to use it I told him not to waste his time because it was the same as the basic HR20, except two things it has VOD, and more HD channels. This box is from Cincinnati Bell, My mom and Sister has the Scientific American box from Time Warner Cable. Guess what, same DVR. Care to guess what's not the same? My Tivo, it was upgraded by me with 2 400GB hard drives because it's mine and I can do what I want to do with it. And it has a better guide that I like because it shows allot more of what I may want to record on the channels I watch most, not the 2 hour grid that all the other DVR's I've described have. It has a duel live buffer that allows me to watch 2 shows at the same time, and it records programs that I might not think to record. I like Tivo. You don't. My point is a lot of DirecTV customers feel like me and want DirecTV to bring it back. If DirecTV had half a brain they would. But instead they've got this website trying to convince people having problems with the HR20 it is, or a more appropriately will be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Guess what I'm not convinced. And from what I'm reading just on this post, besides a few posters like you, a great number of DirecTV customers are not convinced. DirecTV needs to stop hoping that their promise of 100's of new HD channels will blind people from the problems they are having with the HR20, and the fact it's not a TIVO.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bafuerst said:


> You may love DirecTV but the fact is many people are angry at DirecTV because they released their DVR too soon with bugs and abandoned the Tivo which I have never heard anyone complain about. When a company makes people angry many if not most of them do not like to continue to give that company money! Why is that so hard for any of you diehard DirecTV fans to understand? Plus DirecTV has now made it even easier to switch because their DVR is no different than the competitions. Sure it may have a cleaner UI but compared to what I've seen from cable or Dish it's just a basic DVR.
> 
> Also you may say it's just about the programming. Yes and no. Cable and Dish will catch up to DirecTV when their 100's of HD channels come online. So that's no big deal. Plus think about this. Driving a Car is just about getting from point A to point B but we don't all drive the same car do we. People like choice and when they pay a premium ($300 to lease a HR20) they expect a premium product not the same basic DVR like every other company has.


Excuse me? Hostility much?

The guy seemed to suggest leaving because DirecTV no longer had Tivo. Was simply stating the E* doesn't have Tivo either and once fall rolls around he (and we) will see if DirecTV delivers on the new HD and be able to compare at that time HD vs. HD from both.

If you're suggesting leaving D* simply out of spite...well....that's pretty funny.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Excuse me? Hostility much?
> 
> The guy seemed to suggest leaving because DirecTV no longer had Tivo. Was simply stating the E* doesn't have Tivo either and once fall rolls around he (and we) will see if DirecTV delivers on the new HD and be able to compare at that time HD vs. HD from both.
> 
> If you're suggesting leaving D* simply out of spite...well....that's pretty funny.


Spite works for me, not sure why it's funny to you. Maybe you should get a dictionary because I'm sure it will not be funny to DirecTV when they lose customers to it. Not a day goes by that something is not done to spite something. We do it all the time. You just did it replying to my post. I don't what to speak for man_rob but my guess is he's thinking about switching to Dish to spite DirecTV because they are not updating the tivo. I'm sure he knew that Dish Network does not have tivo so you cluing him in on that fact was really no help was it. Sounds like your post to him might have had a little spite in it also.

I'm sorry if I'm being rude here but you and a couple other posters on this forum do not seem to get it. People are mad that DirecTV is no longer carrying the Tivo receiver because we like them. I will go even further and say we love them. You guys keep on telling us that the features that the Tivo have are irrelevant and no one uses them. They are not. I use them all the time. So if I can't have tivo and have to use a DVR that is the same as everyone else's I will switch to another company for spite and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm doing it right now. Read my other post and you will see what I'm talking about. DirecTV is getting about $60.00 less a month from me because of it.


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## Pink Fairy (Dec 28, 2006)

A little bit less arguing here guys? We are here to help each other, not argue and fight


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

okietekkie said:


> A little bit less arguing here guys? We are here to help each other, not argue and fight


If what I'm doing on this forum is arguing then I am truly sorry. But this post is about whether DirecTV will renew ties with Tivo. I'm trying to point out that I'm not the only one that hopes this happens because to many of us the HR20 is not a valid replacement for the Tivo even when it works. Also the fact that my beloved Tivo will not get 100's of HD channels has me a little crazy, and sad so I apologize.

Anyways I think I've said enough, now I can only hope enough people who agree with me read my few posts here and like me tires to convince DirecTV to bring Tivo back. This site seems to have some kind of link with DirecTV so I thought it was as good as place as any to voice my option and maybe get the ball rolling. Also calling DirecTV is a good Ideal if for only the fact you might get some kind of credit to ease the pain.


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## dtv_girl (Mar 29, 2007)

ChrisMinCT said:


> By the time we get through the next dozen releases over the next 6 months, I think the HR20 will stabilize and they'll refine the core DVR interfaces to the point where new users won't freak out.


Ok, I probably shouldn't be posting at all but I am not going to use my name or location. I work at one of the call centers so I deal with the stuff you guys are all talking about 8 hours a day. So regarding the updates. I KNOW the HR20 will get better as we put out more releases. Back in late Jan early Feb we put out a software update for the R15, which previous to that update I HATED because I had people screaming at me all day long, and I would say the day after that update went out my calls about the R15 had to have dropped about 95%. I cannot wait for more updates to go out for the HR20 so I can get the same miraculous drop in calls about that.

Regarding a few other issues that people have brought up. TIVO does sometimes have issues also. We had an issue with TIVO's season passes not working for awhile there and it was just our TIVO's but all TIVO's. I had people screaming at me for that for weeks and that wasn't even our fault. And the thing about TIVO is that the software updates come from TIVO over a phone line and not from us over the sat signal like all the other receivers do. The last few weeks I have been taking hour long calls from people just trying to get their TIVO's to make a call to TIVO so they can get the latest update because of the daylight savings time fiasco. I am not saying that one is better than another but TIVO is not without its faults.

I am a csr in one of the technical support departments. Some departments have better training than others and like any customer service job some people are better at their jobs than others. I get screamed at, abused, cussed out and threatened multiple times a day for things I have NO control over. Give us a break sometimes. As much as I would like to say I treat all customers the same I am more likely to go the extra mile and help you out if you are nice to me, although I would never be rude. I don't decide on the programming, equipment, software, testing or policies. I have to follow the guidelines they set down for us or I can get written up or even fired. I have have seen some of my co-workers go home in tears or quit because they had a bad day where everyone did nothing but berate them. I really do want to help the people that call in. And I feel really really ****ty when I can't do anything because of some glitch that one of our pieces of equipment has or because of a policy I can't change. At the same time this is no reason for ANY csr to be rude to a customer and I want to apologize if that happened to any of you. I can only promise that if you get me on the phone that I will be courteous, professional and as helpful as possible. Please try to be the same way with me.

Also part of the reason, at least as far as I can tell, we are moving away from other companies manufacturing our equipment and software is for uniformity. I went through a months worth of training so that I could learn how to work and troubleshoot as many receivers as I could and I STILL don't know how to work them all. I don't think most of you realize how many makes and models there are out there. It is so much easier when all the menu systems are similar and I know them by heart. I can tell people how to navagate a D10, 11, 12, R15, H20 and HR20 in a snap. Whenever someone pulls out some obscure receiver I end up having to search through my computer for menu systems, screenshots and pictures of the remotes before I can even begin to tell them what to do. I can't tell you how many times I have been frustrated because I know how to fix a simple issue and either the menu system on their RCA doesn't do the same thing or is so confusing that even with instructions we can't get to the correct menu.

I am not trying to cause trouble or make excuses. Just thought you would like to hear about things from a slightly different perpective. Ask me anything you like. I can't promise I will know the answer or even be able to give it to you if I do but believe me I sympathize with what you are all experiencing.


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## Que (Apr 15, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> But E* doesn't have Tivo either.
> 
> Waiting until fall is a good plan since that is when we'll see all the new HD go up on D*, hopefully E*will announce something by then as to what they want to do to complete and you can make a good comparison.


Does E* have a DVR with DLB???


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Que said:


> Does E* have a DVR with DLB???


I'm not 100% sure, but I think the DLB buffers only work when you have the PIP on.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

bafuerst said:


> Spite works for me, not sure why it's funny to you. Maybe you should get a dictionary because I'm sure it will not be funny to DirecTV when they lose customers to it. Not a day goes by that something is not done to spite something. We do it all the time. You just did it replying to my post. I don't what to speak for man_rob but my guess is he's thinking about switching to Dish to spite DirecTV because they are not updating the tivo. I'm sure he knew that Dish Network does not have tivo so you cluing him in on that fact was really no help was it. Sounds like your post to him might have had a little spite in it also.
> 
> I'm sorry if I'm being rude here but you and a couple other posters on this forum do not seem to get it. People are mad that DirecTV is no longer carrying the Tivo receiver because we like them. I will go even further and say we love them. You guys keep on telling us that the features that the Tivo have are irrelevant and no one uses them. They are not. I use them all the time. So if I can't have tivo and have to use a DVR that is the same as everyone else's I will switch to another company for spite and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm doing it right now. Read my other post and you will see what I'm talking about. DirecTV is getting about $60.00 less a month from me because of it.


I got no problem with anyone that switches to Dish. Why would I care? I evaluate that move (as well as cable) myself every summer just before Sunday Ticket. It's dumb not to look at other providers and see what's out there. I almost switched 2 years ago but Sunday Ticket has it's claws in me and kept me with D*. Someday ST may get too expensive so as to not have a hold of me anymore. We'll see.

And hey, I love my Tivo's. I've had one since 2000 with the stand alone variety. But for me (and just me here) the UI of the DVR isn't even in my top 10 of who I choose for my programming provider. For others it is higher. So DirecTV going a different direction doesn't phase me one bit.

I only mentioned that E* doesn't have Tivo because you might be suprised how many people don't realize that. I know 2 people that think their Dish DVR *is* a Tivo. All DVRs are Tivo to most people. So just a little edumacation on my part to try to help the guy out. Sorry you got so offended by it.

Also just an FYI that the number of people that will leave D* solely because of no Tivo is so small they won't even notice it. They will add that many new customers in a couple weeks. I always say vote with your wallet. And you should. Just understand in the grand scheme of things here it just won't matter. But so long as you are happy by switching that is all that matters.


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## ApK (Mar 6, 2006)

Hi Dtv_girl! Welcome...Glad you're here!



dtv_girl said:


> Regarding a few other issues that people have brought up. TIVO does sometimes have issues also. We had an issue with TIVO's season passes not working for awhile there and it was just our TIVO's but all TIVO's. I had people screaming at me for that for weeks and that wasn't even our fault.


My Tivos (Sa and DTivo) had no problems with that issue, and as I understand it, it was only an issue on DTivos due to DTV changing guide data format, NOT for all Tivos. Do you have other information?



> And the thing about TIVO is that the software updates come from TIVO over a phone line and not from us over the sat signal like all the other receivers do.


For DTivos, the updates DO come over your sats just like all the other receivers, but it requires a phone call to enable the installation. I understand the distinction would be meaningless to most of your callers, but your statement is not correct.



> I am not saying that one is better than another but TIVO is not without its faults.


In your own call-taking career, can you honestly compare the volume of problems that turned out to be actual system problems (as opposed to installation or user errors) in the YEARS you've supported Tivo with the volume of system problems you've handled with the R15 in just the past year or so? I think the two problems you mentioned with Tivo are the exceptions that prove the rule.



> I get screamed at, abused, cussed out and threatened multiple times a day for things I have NO control over. Give us a break sometimes.


Usually, the only time I'd get overtly angry or hostile to a CSR at any company, is they were overtly incompetent (resulting in their wasting my time and frustrating me with their mis-information or lies) or rude to me, which, unfortunately, happens WAY more often than it should.

If I then call back and get some one else after that happens, I start the conversation with something like: "Hi. I apologize in advance if I sound angry or hostile. I just went through xxx experience with xxx person, so please understand that I'm not upset with you, personally."

ApK


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## hr20manray (Dec 18, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> If what I'm doing on this forum is arguing then I am truly sorry. But this post is about whether DirecTV will renew ties with Tivo. I'm trying to point out that I'm not the only one that hopes this happens because to many of us the HR20 is not a valid replacement for the Tivo even when it works. Also the fact that my beloved Tivo will not get 100's of HD channels has me a little crazy, and sad so I apologize.
> 
> Anyways I think I've said enough, now I can only hope enough people who agree with me read my few posts here and like me tires to convince DirecTV to bring Tivo back. This site seems to have some kind of link with DirecTV so I thought it was as good as place as any to voice my option and maybe get the ball rolling. Also calling DirecTV is a good Ideal if for only the fact you might get some kind of credit to ease the pain.


You've made your point well.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> I got no problem with anyone that switches to Dish. Why would I care? I evaluate that move (as well as cable) myself every summer just before Sunday Ticket. It's dumb not to look at other providers and see what's out there. I almost switched 2 years ago but Sunday Ticket has it's claws in me and kept me with D*. Someday ST may get too expensive so as to not have a hold of me anymore. We'll see.
> 
> And hey, I love my Tivo's. I've had one since 2000 with the stand alone variety. But for me (and just me here) the UI of the DVR isn't even in my top 10 of who I choose for my programming provider. For others it is higher. So DirecTV going a different direction doesn't phase me one bit.
> 
> ...


OK I said I was done but one more post.

I'm one person and I can count 23 people that are DirecTV customers because of me that will not be getting a HR20 because of my advice. I can also count 7 people who have asked me if DirecTV is any good. My response "If you would have asked me that last summer I would have said DirecTV is the best, but know go with dish or the cable company". That's 30 people that will not be DirecTV customers. And that's only the ones I remember. Sure I'm somewhat of the go to guy for tech stuff with my family and friends and they all respect my option. If those 30 people tell just 2 people that's 90 people who will not become DirecTV customers. And if they tell 2 people, I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. And I'm not the only person who feels this way, and are telling people not to go with DirecTV.

Also I am now retired but used to work for both very large and very small service companies. I can assure you the any customer is missed and any company that feels otherwise should not be in business. Sure sometimes business decisions are made that will alienate a certain customer base. I worked for a great company that did that and sadly they're no longer in business. Do I see DirecTV going out of business, of course not. But they could easily update the Tivo and be the great company that had great receivers that I once loved again.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> That's 30 people that will not be DirecTV customers. And that's only the ones I remember.


I've turned 35 people on to DirecTV because of the HR20, so I've more than balanced you out.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Jeremy W said:


> I've turned 35 people on to DirecTV because of the HR20, so I've more than balanced you out.


LOL! I was just going to pat bafuerst on the back for single handedly bringing D* down! Thank goodness for people like you, Jeremy W, that I will be able to fulfill my two-year commitment before D* goes under! 

I love my TiVo, too, but I just do not see D* backpedalling now. I'll hang onto the ten I own until they die, but that's not keeping me from getting more HR20s, either.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

JLucPicard said:


> Thank goodness for people like you, Jeremy W, that I will be able to fulfill my two-year commitment before D* goes under!


I do what I can.


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## bafuerst (Feb 18, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> I've turned 35 people on to DirecTV because of the HR20, so I've more than balanced you out.


Yes but did they tell two people.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

bafuerst said:


> Yes but did they tell two people.


Most of them told four people.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> I've turned 35 people on to DirecTV because of the HR20, so I've more than balanced you out.


Great! Based on the performance of the HR20, that means there will be at least 10 more bafuersts!


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## Nivek (Sep 21, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Most of them told four people.





dhaakenson said:


> Great! Based on the performance of the HR20, that means there will be at least 10 more bafuersts!


Can we please stop the pissing match?

Can one of the mods please, please, please lock this thread? It has outlived any useful discussion and has turned into nothing more than a juvenile competition.

/Kevin


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