# Obama Signs DTV-Delay Bill



## joblo

*President Barack Obama has signed the bill extending the DTV date from Feb. 17 to June 12.*
By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/11/2009 2:58:26 PM MT

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174041-Obama_Signs_DTV_Delay_Bill.php


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## Tom Robertson

Excellent find, joblo! Thomas (the congressional site) and the Whitehouse blog still don't have it yet.


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## Ken S

Hopefully they can find a way to get the converters out to those that need them by mid-June.


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## lwilli201

WooHoo, I guess 97% of the people knowing about the DTV transition is just not good enough. :nono2:


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## joblo

*There are 19 markets where all four major network affiliates want to switch on that date*
By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/11/2009 2:33:17 PM MT

The FCC has just released some breakdowns of stations that asked to pull the plug on analog service Feb. 17. ...

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ar...wn_Of_Stations_Wanting_To_Stick_To_Feb_17.php

====
I don't see this on the FCC's web site. Maybe it will show up later, or maybe I am not looking in the right place. --joblo


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## hdfan1

joblo said:


> *There are 19 markets where all four major network affiliates want to switch on that date*
> By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/11/2009 2:33:17 PM MT
> 
> The FCC has just released some breakdowns of stations that asked to pull the plug on analog service Feb. 17. ...
> 
> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ar...wn_Of_Stations_Wanting_To_Stick_To_Feb_17.php
> 
> ====
> I don't see this on the FCC's web site. Maybe it will show up later, or maybe I am not looking in the right place. --joblo


I know Dayton, OH is one of those 19 markets. All 4 networks and PBS have all announced they will switch on Feb. 17th unless the FCC does not allow it.


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## Grentz

I guess good for those that still need to get their gear.

The stupid thing IMO is that most people that have not changed over yet are:

-Those that were just sandbagging, then saw all this news about the delay, and decided to act and get the stuff they needed.
-Those that knew and are just procrastinating until it finally is turned off
-Those that are confused and have not done anything and will continue to not do anything until their picture goes away and they are forced too.

IMO most people did/do not need more time, they just need things to go dark to finally be forced to do something.


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## lwilli201

Grentz said:


> I guess good for those that still need to get their gear.
> 
> IMO most people did/do not need more time, they just need things to go dark to finally be forced to do something.


Totally agree. While taking action to stop some stations from shutting down, the FCC should encourage some major stations to shut down analogue in markets that no majors are shutting down. This, I believe, will do more to getting the point across than anything else. Other wise those markets that every station is waiting will be in the same mess down the road. The possible lose of a few viewers has the stations in some markets running scared.


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## lwilli201

hdfan1 said:


> I know Dayton, OH is one of those 19 markets. All 4 networks and PBS have all announced they will switch on Feb. 17th unless the FCC does not allow it.


If the FCC comes in and says that one of those stations has to stay on, will the other stations cave and not shut down for fear of losing viewers?


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## joblo

lwilli201 said:


> If the FCC comes in and says that one of those stations has to stay on, will the other stations cave and not shut down for fear of losing viewers?


Well, it sure seems like the FCC would have to offer all stations the option...


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## Mark Holtz

There is nothing to see here. We all made our points during each of the bill stages during the past month. Why new points are there to raise? We just get to watch the aftermath and say, "We told you so."


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## robmadden1

I haven't seen it discussed, but doesn't the delay favor the big networks and large broadcasting conglomerates at the expense of the smaller independent broadcasters?

Most posters seem to think that all broadcasters are opposed to the delay due to the increased expenses of continuing analog broadcasts. However, for the big networks, these costs are really small potatoes compared to their overall operating costs. For them, the delay is an opportunity to gain market share from smaller competitors who can't afford to continue analog broadcasts. Furthermore, between the additional expense of continuing to broadcast and the prospect of losing market share, many of the smaller broadcasters are likely to fail in these tough economic times. This presents the large conglomerates with opportunities to buy them up and expand their own business or at least to face reduced competition. It seems to me that this is why the big networks were so quick to jump onto the "delay" bandwagon and why the NAB ultimately gave its endorsement to the bill.

Unfortunately, it's the smaller stations and ultimately the viewing public who pay for it all in the end.


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## slowmoe

What is wrong with our government? They set a date. Tell us the sky is falling if we use OTA. Then change it. Oh boy more commercials. Witch I find mis-leading from the start. Some commercials made it sound that if I was using OTA I would loose my signal with no converter or set top box. I never really heard if I have a digital set I was ok. I sort felt sorry for those that are not in the know like must of us here.


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## SParker

YEAH! I can't wait till they want to delay again come late May early June.... :lol:


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## MarkMac

Has anyone seen any estimates of how much $$ this delay is going to cost?


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## James Long

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ar...ll_Digital_Feb_17_Could_Hit_Triple_Digits.php

*FCC: Stations Not Allowed To Go All-Digital Feb. 17 Could Hit Triple Digits*

Acting FCC Chairman Michael Copps would not pin down when the FCC would let the 491 stations wanting to pull the plug on analog Feb. 17 know whether they will be able to or not, but some guidance could be coming out later today, he said.
...
Copps aide Rick Chessen said that the number of stations in vulnerable markets where the FCC could prohibit them from pulling the plug could be anywhere from low double-digits to triple digits.

Copps said that he was pleased that almost two-thirds of stations planned to remain on in analog.

The FCC is currently vetting those 491 requests to see what stations in vulnerable markets may have to stay on in analog. Copps said those markets would probably be smaller to mid-sized, pointing out that some broadcast groups have stepped up to help insure that most of the big markets were covered. "The larger markets, where we have O&O's, thanks again to the wise decision and the public interest decision of the major networks, there will continue to be analog broadcasting."


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## SParker

MarkMac said:


> Has anyone seen any estimates of how much $$ this delay is going to cost?


Lou Dobbs guesstimated about 300 million dollars.


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## joblo

*Compromise Reached On Stimulus Bill
DTV-to-analog converter box coupon program is closer to getting the money it needs*
By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/11/2009 4:42:29 PM MT

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174047-Compromise_Reached_On_Stimulus_Bill.php


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## Tom Robertson

<moderator note>
Please remember we do not allow political commentary at DBStalk. If you start with a phrase "not to be political" or "sorry if this is political" you might as well not post it. You'll likely get an infraction.


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## ziggy29

joblo said:


> *Compromise Reached On Stimulus Bill
> DTV-to-analog converter box coupon program is closer to getting the money it needs*
> By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/11/2009 4:42:29 PM MT


Too bad they didn't do this 2-3 months ago, by which time it was alrady obvious the coupon program was going to run out of money.


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## scooper

For better or worse - at least the confusion will be over with for now...


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## James Long

scooper said:


> For better or worse - at least the confusion will be over with for now...


Until we find out which "low two digit to three digit" count of stations don't get to turn off their analogs.


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## robmadden1

Obama signing the bill:










http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gncM__9eCAaX9DcsR-J3a8YRYIcQ


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## sorahl

wait.. we are switching to digital???? whoa when did that come up? I've been busy building my Heathkit TV.


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## James Long

THE FCC HAS SPOKEN: In part ...
In contrast to the stations remaining on the air and those that have previously terminated analog service or complied with the Third DTV Periodic Report and Order procedures to terminate analog service before February 17th, we have identified 123 stations of the 491 intending to terminate analog service on February 17th whose early termination poses a significant risk of substantial public harm.
. . .​Accordingly, we hereby reconsider the partial waiver granted by the February 5th Public Notice to those stations listed on the Appendix attached to this Public Notice. These stations are, therefore, not permitted to terminate their analog service on February 17th, unless they comply with the conditions and procedures described below.
. . .​Stations listed in the Appendix to this Public Notice may obtain reinstatement of the waiver necessary for them to terminate analog service on February 17, 2009 by certifying to the Commission, not later than the close of business (6:00 pm EST) on Friday, February 13th, that they will individually undertake the measures specified herein as a means of ameliorating the public interest harms that the termination of their analog service would engender. We also encourage stations in the markets listed in the Appendix to cooperate and undertake the actions on a joint basis. Each station should certify in response to this Public Notice its compliance with the following eight measures. These certifications will reflect that the station is undertaking the action individually or that they have confirmed that another station will do so.​Public Notice: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A1.pdf

Station List: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A2.pdf


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## bidger

This 11th hour _(Mod Edit:Language)_ is for the birds.


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## James Long

The good news is 368 stations are approved. The bad news is for the 123 stations who have to make a showing by Friday, 6pm ET.

It isn't a hard showing ... just "proof" that some sort of nightlight service will be provided by one or more of the stations in the market. Still just one more hurdle to being able to do what all stations have been planning to do for years.

[strike]BTW: My market was spared. No full power analog TV after February 17th. Two stations are nightlighting which is probably what saved us.[/strike]
Correction: Small print. We're not spared.


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## joblo

No market was spared. 

The only DMAs that will be newly without full power service or 60 days enhanced nightlight will be St. Joseph, MO, presumably because it is in the Kansas City contour, and Zanesville, OH, presumably because it is in the Columbus contour.


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## samhevener

In the Cleveland/Akron market only channel 67 in Canton has permission to shut analog off on Feb 17. The story quotes the FCC as reporting 62% of analog stations will delay the Feb 17 shut down(38% will shut on Feb 17). Some may shutdown after March 14.
http://www.cleveland.com/businessdiary/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/other/1234344775208350.xml&coll=2


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## neljtorres

And the things is that they will be another delay! People on June still will not be ready!


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## dodge boy

I saw an older couple (Mid to late 70s) in a Circuit City asking about these boxes. They were asking how to set it up. I offered and hooked it up for them, their children (in their 50's) don't live in the state, and they really do not have any one to do this. These are the folks this is to protect, this is why I get mad when all the bashing about this bill starts.


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## joshjr

Ken S said:


> Hopefully they can find a way to get the converters out to those that need them by mid-June.


What do you mean by mid june? Alot of stations are still changing now. Really this did not prevent much. Its more sad then anything now. Some people will lose some channles but not all. My market has CBS and FOX moving to digital on the normal cut off date and ABC as well as NBC moving later on. What kind of a message is that for a market? You will lose all FOX and CBS programming but not NBC and ABC. Its gonna be weird. I been ready for this for 2 months. Got my DVR (HR20-100) and an antenna already but now have to wait for NBC and ABC. How frustrating.


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## Cholly

Mark Holtz said:


> There is nothing to see here. We all made our points during each of the bill stages during the past month. Why new points are there to raise? We just get to watch the aftermath and say, "We told you so."


+1


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## fluffybear

SParker said:


> YEAH! I can't wait till they want to delay again come late May early June.... :lol:


let's not go there..


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## joblo

joblo said:


> No market was spared.
> 
> The only DMAs that will be newly without full power service or 60 days enhanced nightlight will be St. Joseph, MO, presumably because it is in the Kansas City contour, and Zanesville, OH, presumably because it is in the Columbus contour.


Turns out Zanesville singleton turned off analog last year and St. Joseph's inclusion on the original list appears to be an error.

So scratch previous speculation. No market was spared.


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## Mindhaz

I thought a lot of channels were moving from VHF to UHF. My understanding was that the lower VHF band was going to be used for other purposes. Channels 7-13 that are strong enough can easily be picked up with a UHF antenna in my location... I'm getting 10 (old 4) now.

I recently learned that 5 (Digital 56) is moving back to 5 here in Nashville. On the other hand 2 (Digital 26) is staying at the new assignment. The local PBS is moving back to its current position of 8 as well.

So I'm SOL on the UHF antenna I purchased a year or so back come June (so much for being proactive). Of course I really won't know until June what I'll get.

Does anyone know what got freed up?


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## Herdfan

They made all 4 of my market's stations stay on.

How long until the lawsuit is filed? The bill (law) gives them the right to terminate, but it is the FCC that has told them no. I see a federal court being involved with this before Tuesday.


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## johnp37

Ken S said:


> Hopefully they can find a way to get the converters out to those that need them by mid-June.


Oh, please, the word about the transition has been going out over every conceivable type of media for months and come 6.12.09 there will still be those who still don't get it. And then what? Delay it again if there are 57 people in the US without converter boxes? Get AARP involved, that might help. Don't rip me for my last comment, I'm 71 and retired and not a an AARP member.


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## Stuart Sweet

I've said it before, it turns out that middle-class retirees are not the largest group of people who are unprepared for the transition.


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## intelisevil

Grentz said:


> I guess good for those that still need to get their gear.
> 
> The stupid thing IMO is that most people that have not changed over yet are:
> 
> -Those that were just sandbagging, then saw all this news about the delay, and decided to act and get the stuff they needed.
> -Those that knew and are just procrastinating until it finally is turned off
> -Those that are confused and have not done anything and will continue to not do anything until their picture goes away and they are forced too.
> 
> IMO most people did/do not need more time, they just need things to go dark to finally be forced to do something.


You forgot those who don't know about it because their electricity has been turned off for non payment . . .


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## cmtar

All locals in my area are switching to digital on the 17th also.


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## lwilli201

cmtar said:


> All locals in my area are switching to digital on the 17th also.


Where might that be?


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## Rich

Stuart Sweet said:


> I've said it before, it turns out that middle-class retirees are not the largest group of people who are unprepared for the transition.


In the last thread months ago on this subject I said that I couldn't imagine a new president allowing the digital switch in February. The Man just walks into his office and sees the probability of yet another nightmare left to him by the previous administration. This is no surprise. Let them concentrate on the important things, like the economy which allows us to have this wonderful satellite service.

And, I bet in four more months, those same folks who aren't ready for the switch, still won't be ready. I plan to go to the Senior Center in my town then and volunteer to help folks hook up the needed equipment. I listen to the people at the stores and most of the people who are asking what to do have no clue. And at BB, of course, those vultures will happily send out the Geek Squad to install the boxes for people. At an exorbitant price of course.

Rich


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## Tom Robertson

I made sure my family here is ready... They all have DIRECTV.  (Ok there is the one that manages to get a super deal on comcast every 3 months. As soon as those stop she's already set to switch.)

Did help hook up an extra receiver or two for the family.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Kansas Zephyr

dodge boy said:


> These are the folks this is to protect, this is why I get mad when all the bashing about this bill starts.


Protect? From what? No TV for a few days/weeks until they figure it out.

It's only TV.

Compared to the potential loss of jobs to pay for unbudgeted expenses that come with the delay.

That is why I get "mad".


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## dennispap

dodge boy said:


> I saw an older couple (Mid to late 70s) in a Circuit City asking about these boxes. They were asking how to set it up. I offered and hooked it up for them, their children (in their 50's) don't live in the state, and they really do not have any one to do this. These are the folks this is to protect, this is why I get mad when all the bashing about this bill starts.


I sort of agree, however, this probably happened recently, when it should have happened months ago. Most People wait until the last minute with everything. If they would have shut off the analogs when they said(pounded really) they would(and boy did they say it by the countless crawls, commercials, ads etc for ever)people would finally realize that the last minute is here.


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## tkrandall

Mindhaz said:


> I thought a lot of channels were moving from VHF to UHF. My understanding was that the lower VHF band was going to be used for other purposes.


Lower VHF (2-6) remains allocated to television, but relatively few will use those channels digitally.



Mindhaz said:


> Does anyone know what got freed up?


Channels 52-69 ("700 nmhz spectrum") will be reallocated for other uses

A list of the final post transistion actual physical channel assignments can be found here (I think this is the current list) 
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf


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## audiomaster

No problemo! Just rip the guts out of a converter box and stuff it in the cabinet! Should be plenty of room. I believe the Heath TV was one of the only ones ever made that had the ability to turn an antenna rotor to whatever station was selected. Wish Channel Master had a converter box that could talk to my Channel Master rotor via USB or something.


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## lwilli201

James Long said:


> The good news is 368 stations are approved. The bad news is for the 123 stations who have to make a showing by Friday, 6pm ET.(


Not all those 123 will be required to stay on, only enough to satisfy the "public good". I can not help but believe that those markets where all the big 4 decided to shut down, that those stations were all in agreement to do it. If the FCC directs one or two per DMA not to shut down, many to the others may also decide not to shut down. How that plays out will be interesting.


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## James Long

lwilli201 said:


> Not all those 123 will be required to stay on, only enough to satisfy the "public good". I can not help but believe that those markets where all the big 4 decided to shut down, that those stations were all in agreement to do it. If the FCC directs one or two per DMA not to shut down, many to the others may also decide not to shut down. How that plays out will be interesting.


The FCC was kind enough to decline all major networks requesting February 17th shutdown in markets where any were denied. Stations that had February 16th or earlier shutdown dates were left alone.

In order to satisfy the "public good" a 60 day nightlight, staffed walk in center and other concessions are required. It will be interesting to see how many of the 123 fight, how many shut down and how many comply. Filings due in 23 hours ...


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## lwilli201

James Long said:


> The FCC was kind enough to decline all major networks requesting February 17th shutdown in markets where any were denied. Stations that had February 16th or earlier shutdown dates were left alone.
> 
> In order to satisfy the "public good" a 60 day nightlight, staffed walk in center and other concessions are required. It will be interesting to see how many of the 123 fight, how many shut down and how many comply. Filings due in 23 hours ...


After rereading the PN, I see that your are absolutely correct. I did not think they would be so heavy handed. I do not believe many will fight it unless they are in dire financial trouble or major contractural problems.


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## robmadden1

*Best Buy wants to annoy you into a converter box, takes the DTV PSAs in-store*

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/02/12/best-buy-wants-to-annoy-you-into-a-converter-box-takes-the-dtv/


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## n3ntj

joblo said:


> *President Barack Obama has signed the bill extending the DTV date from Feb. 17 to June 12.*
> By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/11/2009 2:58:26 PM MT
> 
> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/174041-Obama_Signs_DTV_Delay_Bill.php


I have 2 word in response.. Un-freakin' believable.


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## robert koerner

This is about people who own perfectly functioning TVs that will become non-functioning because our government decided to make them non-functional. That coupled with a poorly conceived and poorly implemented transition scheme.

At no time did the government advertise that anyone who needed a converter box should apply months ahead of the transition because the government would run out of coupons.

Remember the people who do not derive a benefit from digital transmissions are the ones who have to pay the price because of the government's actions when the government runs out of coupons.

So, go ahead. Blame people who neither have cable or sat TV, nor digital Tvs for the transition delay until more people get converter boxes--its their fault their TVs won't work.

Bob


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## lwilli201

There are things that become obsolete every day.

The analog cell phone
The Bata Max 
The VCR (very soon)
Blue Ray wants to make the DVD obsolete

Has there been or will there ever be a coupon program for these things? I quess it can be said that it all the governments fault. We must remember that with the advances in technology, and the need for more and better emergency communications, bandwidth needed to be freed up. The TV digital transition will open up a lot of bandwidth so the fireman can get to your burning house faster or you can watch a ball game on a handheld device or you can have low cost or free internet while you are sitting in the park. Digital TV also allows us to have HD TV which would not be possible with the current analog. Most can afford a $50.00 converter but they had rather wait for the handout and jam up the coupon program so that those that really need them have to wait.


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## scooper

robert koerner said:


> This is about people who own perfectly functioning TVs that will become non-functioning because our government decided to make them non-functional. That coupled with a poorly conceived and poorly implemented transition scheme.
> 
> At no time did the government advertise that anyone who needed a converter box should apply months ahead of the transition because the government would run out of coupons.
> 
> Remember the people who do not derive a benefit from digital transmissions are the ones who have to pay the price because of the government's actions when the government runs out of coupons.
> 
> So, go ahead. Blame people who neither have cable or sat TV, nor digital Tvs for the transition delay until more people get converter boxes--its their fault their TVs won't work.
> 
> Bob


No it's not, but I am not going to discuss it further.


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## James Long

robert koerner said:


> This is about people who own perfectly functioning TVs that will become non-functioning because our government decided to make them non-functional. That coupled with a poorly conceived and poorly implemented transition scheme.


Should I throw out all of my old TVs next Wednesday? I'm sure that my TVs will have some function. "Non-functioning" is an exaggerated over statement.



> At no time did the government advertise that anyone who needed a converter box should apply months ahead of the transition because the government would run out of coupons.


The government has been telling people to get their coupons for more than a year. Perhaps there could have been more clarity of "get your coupons before they run out" but the coupon program rules and limits are not secret.



> Remember the people who do not derive a benefit from digital transmissions are the ones who have to pay the price because of the government's actions when the government runs out of coupons.


So there is zero benefit for people who bought their own boxes? Is the only benefit you see of the entire program $40 off a $60 box?

I could understand if you thought there was no benefit to anyone without a HD set or no benefit to people without OTA TV. But no benefit for people who didn't happen to get coupons?



> So, go ahead. Blame people who neither have cable or sat TV, nor digital Tvs for the transition delay until more people get converter boxes--its their fault their TVs won't work.


There has been plenty of warning and we all know that it takes an emergency to get some people to respond to even more important warnings than "your TV needs a converter or you will only see static".

There needs to be a role for personal responsibility.


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## dorfd1

Don't lie! my tv has no fm tuner in it but I can pick up 89.3 when I tune to channel 6! that means channel 6 in cincinnati will be analog for life?
when is that radio station transitioning to digital?


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## Cholly

dorfd1 said:


> Don't lie! my tv has no fm tuner in it but I can pick up 89.3 when I tune to channel 6! that means channel 6 in cincinnati will be analog for life?
> when is that radio station transitioning to digital?


No, channel 6 won't be analog for life. Either you live very close to that FM station or your TV tuner is malfunctioning. TV channel 6 frequency band is 82-88 MHz. The FM audio carrier for channel 6 is centered at 86.5 MHz., and there is a possibility that a strong signal at the low end of the FM band (88-108 MHz.) can overload the tuner on the TV. An FM trap on the antenna input to the TV may help.


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## dorfd1

Cholly said:


> No, channel 6 won't be analog for life. Either you live very close to that FM station or your TV tuner is malfunctioning. TV channel 6 frequency band is 82-88 MHz. The FM audio carrier for channel 6 is centered at 86.5 MHz., and there is a possibility that a strong signal at the low end of the FM band (88-108 MHz.) can overload the tuner on the TV. An FM trap on the antenna input to the TV may help.


for now the comericals are lying because come june 12 I will get more than justt static on atleast channel 6.
I used to own the wintv go which had no fm tuner but I was able to pick up several radio station with it.
my antenna can do 50 db amplification.


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## harsh

Cholly said:


> TV channel 6 frequency band is 82-88 MHz. The FM audio carrier for channel 6 is centered at 86.5 MHz., and there is a possibility that a strong signal at the low end of the FM band (88-108 MHz.) can overload the tuner on the TV.


Channel 6 audio is at 87.75. Typically the low end of the FM band is populated with very low power public stations.


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## Hoxxx

It won't matter how long it is delayed there will allways be some people not ready. those are the ones that will switch when it is the only choice.


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## robmadden1

The FCC order implementing the *DTV Delay Act* has been posted on the FCC site.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-9A1.pdf


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## lwilli201

Cpt Guavaberry said:


> This is all part of the stimulus package.
> 
> If the economy needs millions of additional boxes, it'll be sure to jump start the economy.


But all those converter boxes are made in China.


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## robmadden1

*FCC Says 53 Analog 'At Risk' Stations Can Go Feb. 17
At least 421 stations can go on the original Feb. 17 date*

According to the FCC, exactly half of the 106 stations that had to comply with various FCC conditions to pull the plug on analog Feb. 17 will actually be doing so.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ar..._53_Analog_At_Risk_Stations_Can_Go_Feb_17.php


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## James Long

FYI: I've created a DTV countdown clock that pretty much sums up the situation ...
http://jameslong.name/dtv.html


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## scooper

James Long said:


> FYI: I've created a DTV countdown clock that pretty much sums up the situation ...
> http://jameslong.name/dtv.html


ROFL !!!!


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## SParker

James Long said:


> FYI: I've created a DTV countdown clock that pretty much sums up the situation ...
> http://jameslong.name/dtv.html


Good one!


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## bidger

James Long said:


> FYI: I've created a DTV countdown clock that pretty much sums up the situation ...


It's a cluster&%#, so yeah, it does effectively sum up the situation.


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## lwilli201

James Long said:


> FYI: I've created a DTV countdown clock that pretty much sums up the situation ...
> http://jameslong.name/dtv.html


But it all makes it less confusing. :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> FYI: I've created a DTV countdown clock that pretty much sums up the situation ...
> http://jameslong.name/dtv.html


I especially like the accuracy of your fine work here....

I now leave it running on my desktop.


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## Mark Holtz

For whatever it's worth, my congressman Lungren (R) replied a few days ago with this:


> Dear Mr. Holtz,
> 
> Thank you for contacting me regarding the upcoming transition to digital television. I appreciate the opportunity to learn of your views.
> 
> As you may know, there has been some discussion about delaying the February 17, 2009 deadline to transition to digital television. The DTV Delay Act (S. 352) would extend the deadline until June 13, 2009 but would allow broadcasters to switch prior to the deadline. This extension would give additional time for individuals to obtain coupons for convertor boxes. However, delaying the deadline will undermine taxpayer-funded public outreach that has resulted in widespread recognition of the February 17 deadline, risks hardship for local broadcast stations that would bear the added expense and logistical complications of operating and maintaining their analog signals for several more months, and a disruption of plans to use the vacated analog spectrum for a variety of wireless services.
> 
> I voted in favor of legislative language that would have required broadcasters holding analog spectrum designated for first responder agencies to comply with the February 17, 2009 DTV transition date. This would have ensured that delaying the deadline would not have interfered with the public safety. However, this language was not included in the final bill and therefore I voted against S. 352.
> 
> On January 29, 2009 The Senate approved S. 352 to delay the transition to digital television. S. 352 passed the House on February 4, 2009 and has been cleared for the President's signature.
> 
> Again, thank you for taking the time to share your views with me.
> 
> If you would like to stay informed about federal legislation introduced in the 111th Congress....


and I'll cut it off right there.


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## leww37334

Tomorrow we will know what the real problems are. I predict Y2K all over again.

BTW there are plenty of converter boxes out there. You just have to pay $49 for them rather than $9.

Two stations in my DMA shut off their analog tonight. We will see what happens.....

PS I sent an email to these stations suggesting they leave the analog on for two weeks, but with a message that says:

If you are watching this, you are too stupid to own a TV.

I did not get a response......


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## leww37334

BTW I also predict the "if it bleeds, it leads" media will find the only 6 people in the US that were affected and interview them on prime time.

Each one will state that their TV no longer works AND they also need someone to give them a new car.


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## phox_mulder

leww37334 said:


> Each one will state that their TV no longer works AND they also need someone to give them a new car.


Sad thing is, Oprah will step up and do exactly that.

phox


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## FogCutter

I've heard that besides the converter box issue, digital TV OTA tends to be highly directional, so many folks without substantial antennas will be limited to one or two channels even with the converter. Don't have direct experience, but it sounds reasonable. Can anyone clarify? 

The UK had a two system standard for many years. At one point only 2000 sets were still on the old standard, and the cost of broadcasting to them was more than replacing the sets each year. Hope we don't fall into that, local stations are bleeding horribly now.


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## Yes616

I am in the far northwest reaches of the NYC DMA and many folks around here know they need the converter boxes but there is something they did not know.

Those who still have OTA antennas don't realize they also need UHF antennas. Going back as far as I can remember the folks around here with a roof top antenna aimed towards NYC only had VHF antennas as that was the main channels. I am seeing people around here running to the store to pick up their converter boxes and I ask them if they are trying to keep NYC channels? I ask because some in the western part of the county are aimed west towards Scranton, PA and they for the most part should be OK. Some of those NYC people did not know that most channels are moving to or already have moved to UHF. Not enough was ever said about that.

To make matters even worse around here there will be 2 channel 11's within reach starting 6/12. WPIX NYC is putting their digital signal on 11 (currently DTV channel 33) and so is WBRE Wilkes-Barre, PA (already on 11). These 2 channels are only about 120 miles apart LOS! That is way too close, don't you think?

Another thing about WBRE is that they have always been along with all the other Scranton area channels on UHF. I hope those UHF antennas work OK with channel 11.

Antennaweb says we cannot get anything digital at my location. TVFool paints a slightly better picture. To get everything a very good VHF / UHF antenna with pre-amp and booster is a must but the best antennas say they are good for 100+ miles VHF and 60+ miles UHF. I am about 85 miles LOS from NYC transmitters and about 70 miles from Scranton BUT I have a mountain blocking my view of Scranton.

I am considering an OTA antenna to compliment my Dish Network locals. I would be able to add several HD channels like My9 and PBS along with the digital sub-channels. How can I do this if I have to worry about everything I stated above? It could cost more than $500 just to experiment!


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## Tom Robertson

FogCutter said:


> I've heard that besides the converter box issue, digital TV OTA tends to be highly directional, so many folks without substantial antennas will be limited to one or two channels even with the converter. Don't have direct experience, but it sounds reasonable. Can anyone clarify?


Just like analog TV had its growing pains, especially for "ghosting" which is really multipath distortion (where the signal comes from reflections as well as direct line of sight), digital TV makers are learning how to better handle their version of multipath: signal lock. Ever new generation of tuners is (generally) better at locking onto the right signal.

That is the only issue I've seen with digital and antenna alignment.

Cheers,
Tom


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## FogCutter

Remember the first gen HDTV OTA tuners? The multipath issue forced them to come up with a new standard. The original standard worked well in lab demonstrations, but the real world really messed things up. 

WSJ ran an article a few weeks ago estimating that 5-7% of viewers will not make the leap to digital, letting their sets go dark instead. The networks were upset because they are already losing so many viewers.


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## Bobby H

I think most of the folks who live way out in the sticks claiming they'll let their TV sets just go dark are merely just spouting off a lot of bluster.

The choice of living out in a rural area far-flung from urban environments comes at a cost of having bad or non-existent over the air TV reception. That is nothing new. The problem has been just as bad with analog TV as it is with digital.

The only difference is with analog you might get a hint of a snowy, yet very un-watchable TV image. With digital you get no picture at all if the signal isn't strong enough. I know a lot of people who live out in rural areas here in Oklahoma. Some live in the Wichita Mountains where getting good OTA TV reception is very difficult. I'm not sure if any of the air and ground military exercises at Fort Sill have any effect on the TV reception either. Nevertheless, all of those people either have cable or satellite TV service.


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## James Long

Found by sebenste at AVS ...









5hr 32min until my next station goes digital only. 24 hours until they are all gone in my market.
Get r done!


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## lwilli201

http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20090216/D96CUIMG0.html

Gray Television, Inc, owner of 36 stations was told only 14 of their stations could shut analog on Feb 17, so they will shut down most of the other stations tonight. Now that decision took some b__ls. Wonder what the FCC will say about that?


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## Tom Robertson

lwilli201 said:


> http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20090216/D96CUIMG0.html
> 
> Gray Television, Inc, owner of 36 stations was told only 14 of their stations could shut analog on Feb 17, so they will shut down most of the other stations tonight. Now that decision took some b__ls. Wonder what the FCC will say about that?


As I read the article, this paragraph


> Gray applied to keep the Feb. 17 date for most of its stations, but the push-back from the FCC left it with 14 that could. As a final twist, Gray over the weekend decided to turn those off on the 16th, some in the afternoon and the rest at midnight, because its lawyers interpreted the rules as saying analog should be "off the air by the 17th" rather "go off the air on the 17th."


says to me that they will shut the 14 off today and tonight. Not nearly as daring as shutting off any of the 22.

Cheers,
Tom


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## lwilli201

It was a little confusing. :sure:


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## lwilli201

James Long said:


> Found by sebenste at AVS ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5hr 32min until my next station goes digital only. 24 hours until they are all gone in my market.
> Get r done!


Maybe it should be outside a TV station with the Feds saying "Take your hands off the analog shut off switch and come out with your hands up".


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## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> lwilli201 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20090216/D96CUIMG0.html
> 
> Gray Television, Inc, owner of 36 stations was told only 14 of their stations could shut analog on Feb 17, so they will shut down most of the other stations tonight. Now that decision took some b__ls. Wonder what the FCC will say about that?
> 
> 
> 
> As I read the article, this paragraph
> 
> 
> 
> Gray applied to keep the Feb. 17 date for most of its stations, but the push-back from the FCC left it with 14 that could. As a final twist, Gray over the weekend decided to turn those off on the 16th, some in the afternoon and the rest at midnight, because its lawyers interpreted the rules as saying analog should be "off the air by the 17th" rather "go off the air on the 17th."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> says to me that they will shut the 14 off today and tonight. Not nearly as daring as shutting off any of the 22.
Click to expand...

I'm watching one of the 11 that were originally on the "challenged" list but were not on the final Friday the 13th filings, WNDU-TV South Bend.

The original announcement was February 17th and they announced last week that channel 16 would go off the air at 6:30pm (after the evening news). Today that announcement changed to 11:59pm tonight.

What I believe Gray and their lawyers are banking on is that they filed the required silent notifications on January 16th naming February 16th as the date WNDU-TV and their other stations would be silent. This pre announced date is why I believe the "change" was made today to shut down on the pre announced date ... to keep the promise they made on January 16th.

BTW: I'm trying to record the last few minutes of analog and the OTA analog signal is lousy at the moment. I was able to record the 6:00pm news. I have set timers to record the last few minutes of analog on WSJV 28 and WSBT 22 tomorrow.


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## hdtvfan0001

This will go down in history as one of the dumbest, lamest, most poorly-conducted execution of anything in the history of mankind....


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## bidger

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This will go down in history as one of the dumbest, lamest, most poorly-conducted execution of anything in the history of mankind....


No argument from me. Instead of simplifying things, the meddlesome Feds have only made it worse. It could have been just flip the switch and those affected who chose to stand pat would have had to take action.


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## Tom Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This will go down in history as one of the dumbest, lamest, most poorly-conducted execution of anything in the history of mankind....


Are you sure it is worse than the Detroit Lions for the past 10 years? 

Actually, I think most of the process has been done fairly well. Only the end game has been badly played.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

bidger said:


> No argument from me. Instead of simplifying things, the meddlesome Feds have only made it worse. It could have been just flip the switch and those affected who chose to stand pat would have had to take action.


Remember, it was those "meddlesome Feds" that made all of this possible and happen.


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## FogCutter

Tom Robertson said:


> Remember, it was those "meddlesome Feds" that made all of this possible and happen.


Absolutely. Nobody gives them credit for the HD transition.

Now watch them cancel it.


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## scooper

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually, I think most of the process has been done fairly well. Only the end game has been badly played.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


AMEN !


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## Rich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This will go down in history as one of the dumbest, lamest, most poorly-conducted execution of anything in the history of mankind....


Had a big argument with Swanni when this first came up. Told him then any new president would be a fool to allow the digital switch to occur so close to inauguration day. Now he's changed his story and says that he first said it wouldn't happen in February for the same reason a couple of years ago. Wish I still had those emails.

And at the time we were arguing, the financial crisis wasn't even on the far horizon.

The folks who planned the switch should have factored the President into the equation.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Are you sure it is worse than the Detroit Lions for the past 10 years?
> 
> Tom


Ok...the second worst...


rich584 said:


> Had a big argument with Swanni when this first came up. Told him then any new president would be a fool to allow the digital switch to occur so close to inauguration day. Now he's changed his story and says that he first said it wouldn't happen in February for the same reason a couple of years ago. Wish I still had those emails.
> 
> The folks who planned the switch should have factored the President into the equation.
> 
> Rich


Successfully concluding the full process is part of the process...so in the end (whenver it actually happens)...this has been a major bungle job.

1) Their argument to postponed supports the notion that they were ill-prepared to have the conversion on time anyway

2) Waiting until the last second to postpone is almost as lame as #1

3) Making the June date optional means the execution will be all over the map in the interim, making that now its all as bad as #1

If we ran our business this way....we'd be asking for TARP money too...:eek2::lol:


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## Rich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Ok...the second worst...
> 
> Successfully concluding the full process is part of the process...so in the end (whenver it actually happens)...this has been a major bungle job.
> 
> 1) Their argument to postponed supports the notion that they were ill-prepared to have the conversion on time anyway


Yup, they didn't take the new presidency into consideration.



> 2) Waiting until the last second to postpone is almost as lame as #1


Happened just about when I predicted it would. Who would schedule something like this just as a new President takes office?



> If we ran our business this way....we'd be asking for TARP money too...:eek2::lol:


I worked for a large corporation that did business in this manner. Throw in Enron and several other corporate entities and you begin to see a pattern of poor management and poor judgment.

Rich


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## bidger

Tom Robertson said:


> Remember, it was those "meddlesome Feds" that made all of this possible and happen.


Fine, but let's also remember it wasn't an entirely charitable action, they were looking to auction spectrum. Ca-ching.


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## Yes616

Yeah.. Look at my earlier post. The worst part of this is the switching of many channels from VHF to UHF and some vice-versa. Some don't even know they need a different antenna.

It's hard to get a straight answer on how this affects the deep fringe people especially where in some cases some channels are the same within less than 200 miles LOS apart. Effective June 12th, WPIX in NYC and WBRE in Wilkes-Barre, PA share digital channel 11. WFSB in Hartford and WCBS in NYC will share channel 33.

How can stuff like this not interfere with each other?

Anyone in southeastern CT just around NE or even just outside of Fairfield County have a current issue with channel 33?

I cannot find anywhere where the same analogue channels being so close together in distance. What is the FCC smoking?


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## Link

We've used rabbit ears on our kitchen TV to pick up 2 local VHF channels for years. There is no good way to run an antenna or cable line to the kitchen counter area. I purchased a converter box and an amplified UHF antenna and it barely pulls in one digital channel. Another channel has 15,000 watts more power and I can't even pick it up for whatever reason. I'm 30 miles from the station towers.

In our living room and family room our large outside antenna picks up all available local stations just fine. I just don't have much hope for basic reception anymore if our kitchen TV can't even get a signal 30 miles from the towers. We've always used a portable TV and TV Band radio during power outages and bad weather. I don't have any hopes of being able to do that anymore if an indoor amplified antenna won't hardly pick up local stations anymore.


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## Bogy

Nice to see the compassion from so many here. Reminds me why I stopped coming around. But...I thought I would share my experience of the past week. My wife is a social worker whose clients are low income elderly. Some of you may end up being elderly one of these days. I hope someone has more compassion for you than you do for them.

Last week I was asked by my wife to help out a couple with Dish. Now we have all heard thousands of times in the past year that if you have cable or satellite you should be OK. So, these foolish old people believed what they have been hearing. They have Dish, they should be OK. Except, these people have had Dish for years. Since long before satellite companies started rolling out local channels. They have been getting 2 analog channels from a rooftop antenna. When they realized they had lost one of their channels, and were going to lose the others, they got a converter box. They were also told they would need a $700 antenna to go with it (old people with no money make such good targets). I went to their home to see what we could do with their existing antenna. Without going into the entire setup, they had the typical birds nest of wires and cables. I hooked it up, and my first attempt resulted in a very poor picture. After trying various combinations of connections, I realized what the problem was when one of the crimped ends fell off the cable. Great job Mr. installer. I jammed it back on, and then the first way I had it hooked up resulted in the reception of 25 channels with their old antenna. I replaced the cable, and they should be OK for the future.
Monday is my day off. As my wife visited more clients I followed her from one to another. Again, hooked up to Dish, with the same problem, locals provided from an OTA antenna. He thought his Dish box was a "converter" box, which is what the ads have been telling him for months. Of course at this point he can't get one of the coupons. Someone donated one to my wife, and she promised to put it in the mail for him. In another week, when he gets his Social Security check (yes, $10 is a big expense for some people, who don't have much more to do than watch TV), he will get the converter box and I will go back and hook it up.
The next person had gotten a digital TV, but the community OTA antenna is aimed so that it only picks up 1 digital channel. I left that connection so that he can pick up the remaining analog channels for the time being, and hooked up a set of rabbit ears he had to pick up the available digital channels. 
The last person I visited that day once again had Dish, and was also connected to the community antenna and had lost at least one channel. She also thought since she had Dish she would be OK. We explained she would have to get a converter box to continue getting the channels OTA. We discussed the $5 charge to get locals through Dish, for a total of $60 a year, which would continue as long as she lived, as opposed to $50, even if she had to pay full price for the converter box. When she gets one I probably will be back to connect it. I'm concerned with the problem of the focus of the community antenna.

Yep, people have had months and months to prepare. My take on this is that many have been misled by the advertisements to believe that since they have a satellite dish they are OK, and are now finding out they aren't, with no coupons left to ask for, at least not at present. The other problem is that they are being ripped off for antennas that are not necessary (my wife has more than one client that has been told they need a $600-$700 antenna to get the digital signals). As opposed to most of us, they have arthritic fingers that don't have the strength or dexterity to change over cables on their own. I congratulate those who have also helped your older neighbors to deal with this issue, and I would encourage others to do the same. If you need the money, these hard up older citizens have all offered to pay me for my trouble. They are used to paying their own way. Personally, I don't need the money that bad.


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## James Long

Thank you for your service.


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## FogCutter

Bogy said:


> . .. My wife is a social worker whose clients are low income elderly. . .
> 
> Bogy,
> 
> I think the estimate that 5-7% of OTA network viewers will simply turn off their TVs has some validity. Not just older folks, but many people who can't afford or just won't pay for television programming will not make the leap, no matter how small it is. Even minor antenna changes and free converters seem to be too much for some cheapskates.
> 
> Change is often hard, even good changes, but no doubt some people are going to be left out no matter what is done centrally.
> 
> Thanks for bringing this to the fore -- I'll make an announcement at church and get a group together to make sure our elders and needy are good to go.
> 
> As for the cheapskates -- let'em eat static.


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## Bogy

FogCutter, I hope others follow your example. There may be those out there who are just to lazy to do anything, but there are people out there for whom this is all very confusing, and for whom even $5 extra (when your income is $400-$500 a month) is a huge expense. Along with volunteers to help with the physical end, ask if there are people with unused coupons at home. I'm guessing that many people applied on the off chance they might want one of the boxes, and since they could order 2 they did so, even if they really only needed 1. Rather than let them lay in a drawer somewhere they can better be given to someone who needs one now, rather than waiting for the 90 days to expire so a replacement can be issued to someone else.


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## Tom Robertson

Excellent posts Bogy!


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## FogCutter

Having the boxes in short supply is just ridiculous. Make'm cheap, line the halls of Walmart with coupons and let's get on with it. 

The UK went through this years back and at one point had nation wide broadcast of two formats at great expense for fewer than 2000 receivers. Would have been cheaper to send everyone a new TV. Hope they resolve this issue without resorting to that.


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