# "No one forced you to get an HR20" -- HUH???



## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

I posted this in another thread (buried) and felt it was worthy of "serious" discussion...

I love that those of you who "love my HR20" and "no problems with mine" can rationalize that people who are having problems -- MANY of them (TOO many for a consumer product in today's age) -- should not complain and/or vent in the ONLY forum dedicated to the HR20!!!! Gimme a freakin' break!! If your HR20 works perfectly...GOOD FOR YOU!!! But for those of you who continue to have problems, PLEASE KEEP COMPLAINING!!!! 

One suggestion -- If D*TV would come clean and ACKNOWLEDGE the problems and try to explain what happened and its proposed solutions, PERHAPS people would be a little more understanding and patient. However, thanks to all of this mysery and pretending "only a few" are having issues is such utter BS, it boggles the mind!!!

Now to those of you -- including YOU Eric -- who keep saying no one is "forced" to get the HR20, are you freakin' kidding me!!! Thank goodness, none of you are in charge of Marketing and/or Strategic Planning at D*TV!!! That's a great message to send to the marketplace -- buy our product and MAYBE it will work as advertised. But, if it doesn't (after making a 2-year commitment!!!), you will be put into D*TV CSR roulette land of suggested reboots, get new wires, change your settings -- all to no avail -- ultimately leading to a cycle of replacement boxes. Then, if you find this forum to vent your frustrations with this "D*TV hell", you are ADVISED that "no one forced you" to get the HR20!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :nono: :nono: :nono:


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

What has this post accomplished? 

Go use a cable companies HD DVR for a few weeks, and see how it compares. I tried one, and compared to those, the HR20 is flawless. I tried E* as well, same issues. The HR20 is new, it has a few bugs, some greatly affect usability at times, others are just slight nuisances, apparently which some militant tv watchers cant live with even for a short time. What is the worst that has happened, you miss an occasional tv show? Get over it already!!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Proposed Solution: Fix it.

What else do you want? Do you want the source code for the system? Do you want to see the project plan? What proposed solutions do you want to see?

Do you honestly think DirecTV wants the system to perform the way it is?

There is a *BIG* difference between... "I am having x,y,z problem", and "This thing is a POS"

Again... just as it is valid to post that you are *having* issues... it is just as valid to say I am *not* having issues.

Bottom line... this is *NOT* a ***** moan, vent, just post the frack out frustrations. That is *NOT* what DBSTalk is for.

If that is what you want to do... head over to forums.directv.com (their official forum).

If you want help to get past any issues you have...
To find out what the latest information on the HR20 is...
or "discuss" the issues you are having...

Then yes, that is what this forum is for.

Don't like it...
No one forced you to type www.dbstalk.com into your webbrowser....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

And yes... bottom line.

No one was "forced" to get an HR20... 
No one is "forced" to stay with DirecTV if they are not happy... might cost ya to brake your contract, but that is an issue between you and DirecTV.

You are a consumer/customer just like anyone else... and you *do* have choices.

DirecTV has NOT started a proactive swap-out of HR10's for HR20's.
They have NOT eliminated the H20 as an HD-MPEG-4 receiver

So the option to go with the HR20 was, "your" choice as a consumer.

I know it sounds "harsh" and somewhat "rude", but that is what it is.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Complete disagreement here, Earl, with no disrespect intended.

1. DirecTV had a functioning HDDVR.

2. Due to economic considerations D* discontinued the working model and replaced it with the HR20.

3. Ergo, if you want to record HD programming off of D*, you have to use a HR20. There's no choice in that.

Yes, we do have the choice of providers. Yes, we also have the choice of not watching TV at all. But that's not much of a choice, is it? When you had a functioning box and replace it with a buggy one and force your customers to purchase the new box instead of the old, you're not giving customers a choice...._especially_ those who were previously locked into contracts.

The only "choice" here is D*'s "choice" to (allegedly) make more $$$$ by not having to pay Tivo for the right to use its software. Though, given the issues with the HR20 I'd be amazed if they had seen any cost savings so far.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And yes... bottom line.
> 
> No one was "forced" to get an HR20...
> No one is "forced" to stay with DirecTV if they are not happy... might cost ya to brake your contract, but that is an issue between you and DirecTV.
> ...


Well said.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

I made a choice to "upgrade" to an HR20 that is true. Do I not have a right to expect the equipment to function properly? As far as I, and it seems like many others, are concerned Directv is not living up to their end of the contract and if they ever did admit something was wrong with the receiver the amount of people leaving for free, since they won't be able to fall back on the contract termination 
fee, would be a big hit in the pocketbook. Because of this I really doubt they will ever admit something is wrong with the hardware. So much for "choice".


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## byron (Nov 15, 2004)

CCarncross said:


> What has this post accomplished?


amen. aimlessly venting in an open message board isn't going to help you or anyone else. if you're unhappy, close your account.... end of story.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

I think the HR20 situation is similar to what happens when MS comes out with a new version of Windows. They try and find all the bugs before it goes public, but there is NO doubt that once it goes public, there will be issues. Essentially there is really nothing wrong with the HR20 hardware. It seems, mostly rock solid. Not too many reports of hard drive failures, ports not working etc. The issues are a software problem, and if anyone has ever dealt with software, there are ALWAYS bugs (yes, even on MACS!!). It used to be said that you should never get a version 1.0 of software, well you can consider the HR20 1.0 software. It's a new product and they are working out the kinks. Is is a pain that things don't work correctly, sure it is, but it's the nature of "bleeding edge" technology to have these issues. Yeah, we are all used to our almost flawless Tivos, but people on this forum and others have mentioned that when that came out, it was far from flawless. Hopefully these bugs will be fixed in time for the promised influx of new MPEG4 channels that D* is promising us mid year.

For the record, I've had my HR20 less than a month, no real major issues. I'm SURE I will have them, just like everyone else, but I understand that D* is aware and fixing, and I'll just have to live with it for now.


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## Ryanm86 (Oct 18, 2006)

Well I guess the moral of this story is: Don't piss off Earl!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mnassour said:


> The only "choice" here is D*'s "choice" to (allegedly) make more $$$$ by not having to pay Tivo for the right to use its software. Though, given the issues with the HR20 I'd be amazed if they had seen any cost savings so far.


IMHO... close.

It would take YEARS if not more, to just recoop the cost of the research/development of the DVR+ series, even if the unit was PERFECT from day one at $3 a month per user. So there *must* have been more too it, then just $$$ for DirecTV to decide to go their own way.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Everyone has a choice. I even know people who don't even own a TV, let alone an HR-20. Very clearly, there is the Black Screen Bug that is affecting a lot of people. I knew it would when I noticed it after the latest release (forced release). However, it was also crystal clear to ME that DirecTV chose to enable over-the-air capability before fixing this ominous bug. That would have been a Marketing decision as I'm sure that Engineering would have chosen to fix the problem first.

In addition, there are hardware issues that happen from time-to-time. Some of these are infant-mortality (bad HDD, etc.) others can be induced by improper setup and others are just bad luck. There are plenty of corrective actions, one of which is to drop DirecTV. If you've truly gotten a bad rap and you want to move on, then by all means go for it. Fight for your refund or vote with your wallet.

There has been a LOT of shout-outs about how bad the HR20 is performing. To think that DirecTV does NOT know about it is absurd. I'm sure that some of the DirecTV folks read it here, and others read it on their own forum (at DirecTV.com). Surely there are plenty of people calling the call centers voicing a lot of the same concerns. DirecTV knows!

I enjoy my HR20s. I've been bitten by the BSB twice - both times when left on an HD MPEG2 channel for an extended period of time. I tend to leave my HR20 tuned to an MPEG4 channel while I am away from it. MOST of what I record is MPEG4. It's unfortunate that you are not able to enjoy your HR20 as well.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ryanm86 said:


> Well I guess the moral of this story is: Don't piss off Earl!


It has nothing to do with "pissing" me off.

If some really "pissed" me off... you would see it.

This is a discussion forum... part of my "job" as moderator (along with the other moderators)... is to keep things as much as we can on topic.

Keep things constructive to a relative degree.
If I wanted to... In about three mouse clicks, I can delete every post in every thread.

But that is not the purpose of this forum, or DBSTalk.

And if you think that post "pissed" me off... you haven't seen some of my other "lash-out" posts in the past..


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Here's the simple deal though about the HR20.... The HR10-250 is a functioning DVR with the older offerings from D*. 

If as a consumer you want the new HD Locals or to take advantage of the new MPEG4 content coming out this year, the HR10-250 is not a functioning unit. It is a crippled unit.

To say that D* did this to all of us to avoid paying Tivo is a fallacy. I do not know of anyone on this forum that was intimately acquainted with the negotiations between the two parties, and companies like Tivo are notorious for trying to extort ridiculous amounts of money from big companies like D* that they feel they can hold hostage.

Additionally, you really should spend some time on the Tivo Series 3 forums to see how successful they've been with their new HD units. It's definitely not what the HR10-250 was from a reliability perspective.

The one thing that D* should never have done is release the HR20 when they did, but I understand the need to release something based upon market and revenue demands. If you've ever been involved with the release of a product, many times the sales & marketing arm of the company forces the issue and something goes out the door when it's not ready.


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## Ryanm86 (Oct 18, 2006)

I have said it once and I will say it again. Recording Hi definition is a relatively new technology. No one has nailed it. Tivo is close.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Ryanm86 said:


> I have said it once and I will say it again. Recording Hi definition is a relatively new technology. No one has nailed it. Tivo is close.


For that matter, broadcasting HD is still very new technology. I thank the station engineers who post comments in AVSforums about the troubles they are having. Makes for very interesting case study information on the roll out of complex systems.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It would take YEARS if not more, to just recoop the cost of the research/development of the DVR+ series, even if the unit was PERFECT from day one at $3 a month per user. So there *must* have been more too it, then just $$$ for DirecTV to decide to go their own way.


IMHO, it was TiVo's arrogance.

They thought they had the best DVR, the best interface, the best user experience. What they had was a great engine and a so-so UI.

D* probably wanted some changes that TiVo was unwilling to make, and so D* sent off on their own.

Who loses? D* does, TiVo does and more importantly WE DO.


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## solo1026 (Mar 21, 2006)

mnassour said:


> Complete disagreement here, Earl, with no disrespect intended.
> 
> 1. DirecTV had a functioning HDDVR.
> 
> ...


Well Said! No disrespect Earl, but these HR20 are not working the way they should be And what can I do but be out $600.00 
$300.00 for HR20 and $300.00 for cancelling:nono2:


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> What has this post accomplished?
> 
> Go use a cable companies HD DVR for a few weeks, and see how it compares. I tried one, and compared to those, the HR20 is flawless. I tried E* as well, same issues. The HR20 is new, it has a few bugs, some greatly affect usability at times, others are just slight nuisances, apparently which some militant tv watchers cant live with even for a short time. What is the worst that has happened, you miss an occasional tv show? Get over it already!!


I agree with the original poster. It's not fair or even apples-to-apples to compare the cable companies DVR's to the HR-20. The lousy DVR from Comcast is the only reason I don't save myself $60/month almost the exact same programming and arguably better HD quality and offerings right now. But with DirecTV I already have had a great HD-DVR product for years -- the 10-250. And I am not talking about a feature or interface comparison. I realize that is subjective and people will have their loyalties. But I am talking about basic reliability. The HD-TiVo product for DirecTV was basically rock solid. Sometimes there will be hard drive failures with any DVR product and sometimes there will be bad schedule data, etc. But I have left for 2-3 weeks at a time many times and always come back to 50+ new shows from among 40 season passes just fine. And even the Comcast DVR, which was terrible, was at least basically stable.

By comparison, the HR-20 for us has been a total dud. It has not successfully recorded more than 5 days in a row without developing the "corruption" that causes any subsequent recordings to be unwatchable until I do the reset button. On top of that, it routinely neglects to record shows because it decided to label them as "cancelled" even though they are not. I even noticed this in advance for the "Survivor" finale and manually set it to record several times. But within minutes each time it was re-classified as "canceled" despite no conflicting shows. My HD-TiVo worked fine. It also decides on its own to record some of the recurring series on the wrong channels that I don't receive. I can go to this day and see that the series link is set for the correct channel, yet again and again it records dead air on the channel I don't get while ignoring the episodes on the channel I do get.

I realize any such statement is subjective, but these are not "minor" bugs. If the product is so unreliable that consistently cannot count on it to successfully program my shows, that is a fundamental crisis of a problem, not a minor hiccup.

I also realize not everyone is having these problems. But I am skeptical of those who suggest it is a very small minority either. The surveys on this very site suggest a majority of respondents -- from among hundreds -- have experienced serious error. My anecdotal experience is similar. I have always been a great sales tool for DirecTV and TiVo among my neighbors, friends and colleagues over the years so at any given time, I know a lot of people first hand with these products based on my recommendations. And anyone who has followed me to get this latest product has had similar issues - to the point that I know, for the first time, and told me people not to do it yet. I now tell them if they want an HD-DVR they really only have two viable choices - shell out $800 + monthly fees for the TiVo Series 3 and go with Cable, or live with the lame cable co DVR boxes until something better comes along. I tell them if they don't require HD recording from their DVR, DirecTV is still a valid choice and that I am "hopeful" there will be a stable solution for it soon - just now right now. Walk Mossberg of the WSJ, one of the most influential technology reviewers in the country, wrote a column last month that basically said the same thing&#8230;

I also don't buy the idea that we are supposed to be forgiving that this is a new product and they are working out the kinks. By comparison, I got both the original DirecTV-integrated TiVo and the DirecTiVo within the first month of their respective releases and they were in pretty stable shape day-one. So it can be done. It seems like DirecTV rushed an alpha product into the market rather than continue to ship TiVo's longer. Now, we don't have a choice to get the TiVo's unless we want to buy used from the Internet and risk an out of warranty product. So DirecTV really has pushed people into a place where we have no real choice but to live with a severely buggy product unless we leave DirecTV entirely - and years of investment in their hardware across multiple rooms - or live with HD recording.

I am seriously on the fence about sending my box back and re-installing my old Hughes non-HD DirecTiVo box for my bedroom (where the HR-20 is for now), because it is better overall to reliably know I will have an SD version of a program than to cross my figures and hold out for the 50-50 chance I will have any show with the HD-20.

BTW, I am not a basher of the concept of the product. I think some of its features are better than the TiVo, and some things are not as good. My beef is simple stability. That said, I am now ready to be flamed by all the die-hards who feel every negative post has to be countered with the same set of 3-4 arguments&#8230; Here's the target for you:

X :hurah:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

solo1026 said:


> Well Said! No disrespect Earl, but these HR20 are not working the way they should be And what can I do but be out $600.00
> $300.00 for HR20 and $300.00 for cancelling:nono2:


And no one, certainly not me, are saying they "are" functioning the way they should be... for everyone.

But other then "fixing" them... what else do you want DirecTV to do?


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> Who loses? D* does, TiVo does and more importantly WE DO.


Well said. The consumer is the one who always gets in in the end.

And the D* subscribers are definitely getting it "in the end" over this one.

The HR20 may well be a solid box...someday. As another poster observed, it went to market too early...very likely under duress from sales, marketing or Wall Street considerations.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> IMHO, it was TiVo's arrogance.
> 
> They thought they had the best DVR, the best interface, the best user experience. What they had was a great engine and a so-so UI.
> 
> ...


Where did you get the backrgound on your version of events? That's not the same story I've heard. Yours sounds like it came from the News Corp PR department. I have trouble believing News Corp/DirecTV had benevolent intentions with TiVo and simply wanted a few UI changes but itty, bitty TiVo -- for whom the DirecTV relationship was their primary growth engine -- stubbornly refused at the expense of the entire line of business. In what universe is that the most credible explanation? Especially when you consider News Corp's general business partner history and aggressiveness and that they already had a subsidiary in the UK in the DVR business.

This was pure corporate "synergy" / profit taking on News Corp's part more likely... Long term, now that John Malone will own DirecTV and News Corp is out, who knows, but they're obviously pretty far down this path...


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> But other then "fixing" them... what else do you want DirecTV to do?


1. Admit they came to market with a problem child.
2. Refund the upfront lease $ to their HR20 "beta tester" subscribers. That would include those who are NOT having problems. If you are used as a guinea pig you are entitled to compensation even if you aren't harmed by being the test subject.
3. Credit the cost of the HD package to said beta testers to reward them for doing the testing they temselves failed to do for however many months it takes before the unit is stabilized.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Citivas said:


> Where did you get the backrgound on your version of events? That's not the same story I've heard.
> .....
> stubbornly refused at the expense of the entire line of business. In what universe is that the most credible explanation? Especially when you consider News Corp's general business partner history and aggressiveness and that they already had a subsidiary in the UK in the DVR business.
> ...


So where did you "hear" your story of events then?
Where you at the meetings?

Bottom line is... none of us where there... So unless someone formally releases a press statement on "what happened" and the transcripts of the discussions...

It is ALL subject to interpretation.

As for the last half... that is actually happening right now, this very minute at my company.

The current provider for our Point of Sale system, was an EXTREMLY high amount of money to continue with the product we have today.
To make the necessary changes that "WE" as a company need to continue "OUR" plan to continue.

What are we doing? Looking at other vendors, and considering building it ourselves.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And no one, certainly not me, are saying they "are" functioning the way they should be... for everyone.
> 
> But other then "fixing" them... what else do you want DirecTV to do?


They have several options I would think:

1. Admit their mistake and start offering the more stable TiVo version again, even if it means paying TiVo some more $'s to do so. They should have a commitment to their customers right now. Not saying to permanently give up, but retreat until they have a truly tested product.

2. Throw a lot of $'s into getting a huge, cracker-jack development team to fast-track fixing the things. Prove they are willing to eat some short-term expense to correct their mistake in releasing an unstable product.

3. Appease customers who have more or less been forced into being alpha / beta testers by giving us totally free service until such time as they can revise the software or replcae the hardware with something that successfully records everything requested 99% of the time or better.

They are a large, multi-billion dollar public company. All of these things are easily within their grasp.


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## solo1026 (Mar 21, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> 1. Admit they came to market with a problem child.
> 2. Refund the upfront lease $ to their HR20 "beta tester" subscribers. That would include those who are NOT having problems. If you are used as a guinea pig you are entitled to compensation even if you aren't harmed by being the test subject.
> 3. Credit the cost of the HD package to said beta testers to reward them for doing the testing they temselves failed to do for however many months it takes before the unit is stabilized.


There you go That is a start.


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## Slygrin (Nov 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What else do you want? Do you want the source code for the system? Do you want to see the project plan? What proposed solutions do you want to see?


Is the project plan something that can be posted? I would be very interested in seeing it.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Ryanm86 said:


> I have said it once and I will say it again. Recording Hi definition is a relatively new technology. No one has nailed it. Tivo is close.


Why do you say TiVo is only "close?" My TiVo has worked flawlessly for years. I full expect the HD to fail one of these days, but that has happened to all my DVR's eventually and I have burned through 7 over the years.

Granted, DirecTV's compressed HD leaves something to be desired, but that is not a TiVo issue -- what I get from my TiVo HD is absolutely identical to what I get live from any HD box on DirecTV.

BTW, what has this to do with the HR-20's problems anyway? In my experience, none of the the most critical failures are specific to HD. It corrupts or loses my SD problems just as freuqently as my HD ones.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

The first "step" is always to admit there is a problem. 
I for one would also like some step 9.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> 1. Admit their mistake and start offering the more stable TiVo version again, even if it means paying TiVo some more $'s to do so. They should have a commitment to their customers right now. Not saying to permanently give up, but retreat until they have a truly tested product.
> 
> 2. Throw a lot of $'s into getting a huge, cracker-jack development team to fast-track fixing the things. Prove they are willing to eat some short-term expense to correct their mistake in releasing an unstable product.
> 
> 3. Appease customers who have more or less been forced into being alpha / beta testers by giving us totally free service until such time as they can revise the software or replcae the hardware with something that successfully records everything requested 99% of the time or better.


Great minds think alike, Citivas.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

1) Show me a compnay that has ever openly admitted that they have made a mistake.... They are going to be VERY VERY few and far and inbetween.

1a) Even if right this minute... they dropped the DVR+ line and went back to TiVo platform... when do you think you would see one? This year? It is not like they can simply "turn on" the production lines again. As why make more HR10-250's... considering they will not work with sat based HD broadcasts probably by years end. And why make more SD ones? when pretty much the future is HD?

1b) "Truely Tested" product...  Even the comparison product TiVo, is having their own issues with their "latest" unit. So show me a "truely" tested product, that doesn't have any issues...

2) How long do you think it takes to code changes, and test them, and then make more changes... these are not over night fixes... these are not things you fix in 15 minutes. Sadly... You can throw 200 people at it, and ultimately... we would get the same "speed" of software releases.

3) As far as I can tell... A LARGE majority of people have been successfull in having their DVR fee waived.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Slygrin said:


> Is the project plan something that can be posted? I would be very interested in seeing it.


No it is not...... as I would think "most" of us would be intrested in seeing it.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> A LARGE majority of people have been successfull in having their DVR fee waived.


With all due respect, Earl (seriously), I'd be interested in a show of hands on this one.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HarleyD said:


> With all due respect, Earl (seriously), I'd be interested in a show of hands on this one.


To clarrify... "Large Majority", in the sense of those that have stated they called looking to have it waived, and where successfull in doing so.

Not trying to state that the "majority" of DVR users have had it waived.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) Show me a compnay that has ever openly admitted that they have made a mistake.... They are going to be VERY VERY few and far and inbetween.
> 
> 3) As far as I can tell... A LARGE majority of people have been successfull in having their DVR fee waived.


I would be curious if this is true -- perhaps a poll?

But in any event, I was not talking about the $5 DVR fee -- I'm talking about my entire service fee. I would think for most DVR users, it is impossible to distinguish the value of their basical channel service from their DVR service since they watch most shows in a recorded mode through their DVR. That's why the quality of the DVR interface for me was enough to make me turn down virtually free TV service (due to the package pricing) from Comcast. So if the product currently can't consistently allow me to watch DVR recorded programming, I think it is perfectly fair that all my programming costs be waived, as a sign of good faith, until they fix the problem.


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## Ryanm86 (Oct 18, 2006)

You can complain about functionality but please do not complain about the $300 which they will usually reduce if you put up a stink about it. I dare you to build something even half as advanced as the HR20 or even the HR10-250 for less.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> With all due respect, Earl (seriously), I'd be interested in a show of hands on this one.


Yeah, we seem to keep crossing with the same comments on this topic. Every time I refresh after a post, I find I was redundant.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And no one, certainly not me, are saying they "are" functioning the way they should be... for everyone.
> 
> But other then "fixing" them... what else do you want DirecTV to do?


Waive the one sided two year commitment contract.


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

Hand Raised

I paid nothing (19.99) install/shipping for my HR-20


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

raott said:


> Waive the one sided two year commitment contract.


Again... people have been successfull in having the contract "nullified", if they where calling to cancel the service.. and stating the reason on doing so.


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

My HR20 works fine.

I'm happy with it.


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## Ryanm86 (Oct 18, 2006)

glennb said:


> My HR20 works fine.
> 
> I'm happy with it.


And the can of worms is now open


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

It doesn't matter if 
"It is working for me"
"It is not working for me"

If there is ONE case of "It is not working for me", that can't be expained by hardware issues, user error, guide data, or basically something other then the software.... Then there is an issue that DirecTV has to look at.

As if it is happening to ONE it is happening to others.

And *ANYONE* that thinks they are not looking into the issues that are reported here, via the CSRs, forums.directv.com, and other places........


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## Howie (Aug 16, 2006)

glennb said:


> My HR20 works fine.
> 
> I'm happy with it.


Ditto.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

I have no idea why I continue to read these threads. I get nothing out of them. I guess they are like a train wreck. I hope in 6 months when the box is (hopefully) rock solid stable, we can pull up threads like these and have a good laugh.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Am I "happy" with my HR20 not quite. It has it's great moments, and it's bad moments. 

Is it better??? Absolutely. 
Is it pretty close??? I think they're very close to getting this thing solidified.
Should D* fix it??? Absolutely.
Should D* compensate those suffering through this??? Yes, but it is really up to you the consumer to call and ask (I've gotten about $40 a month in credits that are in effect until about April). I would never expect them to come out and just offer everything for free.
Should D* waive all programming fees??? Never. Our DVR is used all the time and we watch 90% of our shows from recordings, but I would never in a million years think D* should give me all of my programming for free. 
Should D* let you out of your commitment??? Absolutely. I would not be at all surprised if there was an "escape clause" even in the contract that lets you out if D* can not deliver the promised service.


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## Ryanm86 (Oct 18, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> I have no idea why I continue to read these threads. I get nothing out of them. I guess they are like a train wreck. I hope in 6 months when the box is (hopefully) rock solid stable, we can pull up threads like these and have a good laugh.


We will be to busy complaining about something else.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

glennb said:


> My HR20 works fine.
> 
> I'm happy with it.


And I'm glad for you. Really I am.

But in my opinion anyone who was sent an HR20 was used unwittingly as a test subject.

As such, you are entitled to compensation even if you weren't harmed. I think D* should make this compensation proactive, and not have to be asked or coerced into giving it in light of the way the rollout of the HR20 has taken place.

And just to be clear, I don't have an HR20. I tried to get an HD-DVR last August and was told by the CSR to wait for the new box coming out because it was better. I wasn't necessarily "forced" but the way it was presented to me was that I would be a fool not to wait a month for a better product at the same price. So I was misled, not forced. While I would eventually have needed a different unit to get MPEG4 LIL, I would at least have something while the thrasing and screaming over the HR20 is going on.

And now, lo these many months later I still don't have the HD I wanted because now I can't get a box that I would in good conscience invest my hard earned money into.

Not to mention that my wife would go absolutely ape-spoor if we were to encounter even a small percentage of the chronic problems that are being reported. She's also a big-time DLB user and would not abide the loss of that feature.

So, because D* wanted me to wait for the HR20 I have nothing.

So I'm a bit peeved.


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## Ryanm86 (Oct 18, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> And I'm glad for you. Really I am.
> 
> But in my opinion anyone who was sent an HR20 was used unwittingly as a test subject.


I knew there was at least one conspiracy theorist out there.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

D* knew there were bugs to be resolved. They sent subscribers the boxes anyway.

Yes, I suppose you could call it a conspiracy. I find that a bit strong but not entirely inappropriate.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> I have no idea why I continue to read these threads. I get nothing out of them. I guess they are like a train wreck. I hope in 6 months when the box is (hopefully) rock solid stable, we can pull up threads like these and have a good laugh.


Man do I ever agree! But I can't help but add... :grin: :grin:

I love these posts that say why didn't they stay with Tivo and argue various and not necessarily related issues. Gee, someone once invented a TV and now we all use the same brand, model, etc. Beta format came out and being clearly better, no other attempt (like VHS) was made to create a market. We already had a good personal computer (TRS80) so why did IBM, Apple, etc. bother? We already have TV, so why has the FCC forced EVERYONE to upgrade to Digital and HD? And why oh why since we had Tivo would D* even consider trying something new and (IMHO) better?

Oops, forgot the most important one: OS/2 was first and technically much better, who does MS think they are coming out with Windows? And Win2K, how dare they? An Vista....?


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Citivas said:


> .....But in any event, I was not talking about the $5 DVR fee -- I'm talking about my entire service fee. I would think for most DVR users, it is impossible to distinguish the value of their basical channel service from their DVR service since they watch most shows in a recorded mode through their DVR. That's why the quality of the DVR interface for me was enough to make me turn down virtually free TV service (due to the package pricing) from Comcast. So if the product currently can't consistently allow me to watch DVR recorded programming, I think it is perfectly fair that all my programming costs be waived, as a sign of good faith, until they fix the problem.


I think this one is a little over the top. Are you saying free prgramming, as the 51.00 Total Choice package kind of free every month? That asking for way to much. It's not that bad.
I've had a couple of issues myself, but it has not prevented me from just plain old watching TV.


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## RobertSeattle (Aug 27, 2006)

My HR10-250 was having false "overheating" issues. (Was reporting that it was overheating even thought it was on 10 minutes after being off for 24 hours) I called D* and they multiple times promised me I'd get a replacement HR10-250. I get a HR20 a few days later via FedEX. I call that forced!


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) Show me a compnay that has ever openly admitted that they have made a mistake.... They are going to be VERY VERY few and far and inbetween.
> 
> 1a) Even if right this minute... they dropped the DVR+ line and went back to TiVo platform... when do you think you would see one? This year? It is not like they can simply "turn on" the production lines again. As why make more HR10-250's... considering they will not work with sat based HD broadcasts probably by years end. And why make more SD ones? when pretty much the future is HD?
> 
> ...


1) Good companies do it. Toyota is famous for proactive recalls for minor, elective fixes without any regulatory requirement to do so. They care about their reputation for quality and would rather admit a mistake than look defensive about it.

1b) Unless you have hard evidence to the contrary, I have trouble believing the latest TiVo software problems -- an update pushed by DirecTV as well, BTW -- are on the same order of magnitude as the HR-20 problems in terms of the affected percentage of user base. That's not my own experience, that of my friends, my impression from reading the TiVoCommmunity forum on AVS Forum or consistent with the level of noise these issues have received in other less hard-core forums like CNet.

2) I have been paid very well to lead software development projects, so I am not speaking from total ignorance. Yes, after a certain point more people do not improve results or time to market. But I have no idea if they have reached that point or have 3 people working on this. And there absolutely is a difference in quality between one team and another -- there are definitely A-teams and not A-teams. And I also know a huge sense of urgency and incentive can make a difference. When I worked for a start-up chasing a new release to close $40MM in VC funding (which we did), we developed an entire from-stratch new version of a product in 5 weeks, including full QA and a stable release. We worked 20 hours a day, but the intense focus paid off. Again, I have no idea what DirecTV is doing, but as you yourself noted in another post they may be prioritizing other things like the OTA functionality over the basic stablity of the box. I want to see they are literally doing everything a multi-billion company is capable of productively doing as an absolutely top priority or I feel perfectly entitled to feel resently as a customer who was perfectly happy with their previous product that wasn't a forced in-house solution.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

RobertSeattle said:


> My HR10-250 was having false "overheating" issues. (Was reporting that it was overheating even thought it was on 10 minutes after being off for 24 hours) I called D* and they multiple times promised me I'd get a replacement HR10-250. I get a HR20 a few days later via FedEX. I call that forced!


Yes, I guess that could be concidered forced.

But the rep on the phone shouldn't have promissed you an HR10-250 when they simply have next to none available anymore.

So I would call and say that I want an HR10-250 or I am out of here, if you don't want the HR20.

Especially if you had the protection plan.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

jgrade said:


> Hand Raised
> 
> I paid nothing (19.99) install/shipping for my HR-20


I'll second that, I paid 19.99 for mine. I was here before ordering it, so I knew it needed working on. Am I unhappy? Of course, I want it to work all the time. D* has given me a 10/month credit for the next 4 months on top of that, after the tech I talked to had no idea of what some of the problems were.

And I am damned happy that we have a guy like Earl willing to help us and kinda keep us going in the right direction, letting us know that D* IS working on it. I would have NEVER ordered the HR20 without knowing the info that Earl had passed on in the past. We're lucky to have him! Thanks Earl! :hurah:

I've got so much confidence in my HR20 and D*'s abilty to get it right that my h10-250 is going in the newspaper to be sold, starting tomorrow.


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## jclark (Oct 4, 2006)

glennb said:


> My HR20 works fine.
> 
> I'm happy with it.


I think that most of the users that are having problems would be happy too if theirs worked. The problem is that with multiple people are reporting the same issues, so it is not user error or a fluke. These defects do exist in the unit and can surface at any time. Perhaps you have just not encountered a problem yet, but that doesn't meant that you won't in the future. The you will become frustrated like the others. 

I guess my point is, every thing was working fine for me for about 2 months. I think I had to do an RBR once during that time. Everything recorded perfectly and life was great. Then out of the blue, last week I got a lot of the instant keep or delete messages. It kinds of shakes your confidence in the product when that happens to you.

With that said, perhaps D* brought it to market a little too quickly, but I think that the reason that Tivo is so stable is that they really haven't changed the D* version in years. When you add new technology or new functionality there are going to be growing pains.

BTW, now that I have 6.3 of the Tivo software, I am having issue with it as well.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> I think this one is a little over the top. Are saying free prgramming, as the 51.00 Total Choice packsge kind of free? That asking for way to much. It's not that bad.
> I've had a couple of issues myself, but it has not prevented me from plain old watching TV.


That's great for you. But a lot of people are having more than "a couple issues." As I stated, many DVR users effectively stop watching live TV, so it is hard to economically distinguish the value of the DVR lease from the service fee. In my case, I watch live TV maybe 5-10% of the time. And the HR-20 has successfully recorded roughly 40% of my programming requests. So roughly over half of all my programming has been unwatchable or not recorded. So why should I only get a $5 fee waived? BTW, that doesn't even count that "live TV" is not always watchable either. I'm sure this must have been reported already in detail, but my experience has been once the unit develops whatever issue causes it to record shows as unwatchable, it will persist indefinitley for days-and-days recording unwatchable shows and crash if you attempt to pause and then play. It plays until paused and it pauses fine, but it locks up if you attempt to unpause...

In any event, my point wasn't that I should get just comps for the exact service level that is disrupted anyway. My point was to "make-good" for providing us such unstable product, they should over-compensate us until such time as we can have basically workable products. It would be a drop in the bucket for them. I don't expect they will do this, mind you. But I was addressing Earl's "what more could they do" question as if any further action were beyond their reasonable control.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Citivas said:


> ...
> 1b) Unless you have hard evidence to the contrary, I have trouble believing the latest TiVo software problems -- an update pushed by DirecTV as well, BTW -- are on the same order of magnitude as the HR-20 problems in terms of the affected percentage of user base. That's not my own experience, that of my friends, my impression from reading the TiVoCommmunity forum on AVS Forum or consistent with the level of noise these issues have received in other less hard-core forums like CNet.
> ....


TiVo still writes the software for the HR10-250... DirecTV employees do not have access to the code. TiVo provides them with compiled versions.

As for the volume of complaints...

I think part of it is that the HR20 since the day of it's announcement has had a target on it's back.... So other forums/blogs/outlets have been paying a lot more attention to it, as it has a direct comparison to another product.

The other part is that the HR20, with it's ability to record the MPEG-4 SAT stream, has a larger audience... as simply put.. I think the "average" consumer doesn't want an antenna on their roof. And with the unit "costing" $0 - $299... vs what the HR10 has cost over the years....

Those willing to "jump" right in with the HR20, for an "average" consumer is a lot more. You are also finding more people getting HDTV's now, with them getting cheaper and cheaper by the week....

Bottom line... there are issues with the unit.
No one is arguing that. Sadly though, the argument always get's back to... it isn't happening to me... vs it is happening to me.

Just because you have a DVR (be it TiVo or DVR+)... that has a problem. Doesn't mean that someone else out there doesn't have the exact same one but does have problems.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Citivas said:


> ....In any event, my point wasn't that I should get just comps for the exact service level that is disrupted anyway. My point was to "make-good" for providing us such unstable product, they should over-compensate us until such time as we can have basically workable products. It would be a drop in the bucket for them. I don't expect they will do this, mind you. But I was addressing Earl's "what more could they do" question as if any further action were beyond their reasonable control.


I don't/didn't mean to discount your issues. I hope you get everything worked out to your satisfaction. I've gotten my share of credits over the years, so I can't complain. For me, this hasn't affected or changed my viewing habits. Apparently it has for you. 
Which is my point I guess. How do you quantify "free service"?


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Citivas said:


> 1b) Unless you have hard evidence to the contrary, I have trouble believing the latest TiVo software problems -- an update pushed by DirecTV as well, BTW -- are on the same order of magnitude as the HR-20 problems in terms of the affected percentage of user base. That's not my own experience, that of my friends, my impression from reading the TiVoCommmunity forum on AVS Forum or consistent with the level of noise these issues have received in other less hard-core forums like CNet.


I don't think Earl is referring to the HR10's problems when he references Tivo's having problems. Look at the series 3 Tivos. I don't have one so I don't follow the forums closely, but they were lit up like a Christmas tree for quite some times with problems on par with what the HR20 is experiencing.

The Tivo problems have absolutely nothing to do with D* or "an update pushed by DirecTV". This is their own product, with big problems, just as the HR20 is DirecTV's own product with big problems.

I think the reason people keep pointing to the Tivo problems is this: The decision was made to go MPEG4. Good or bad, right or wrong, that was what needed to happen. So they either had to go with a new TIVO or a new D* product.

People point to the struggles of the new Tivo to show that life wouldn't necessarily be all peachy if D* had chosen to stick with Tivo. Regardless of who built the box there was a change in technology that needed a new box. D* and Tivo have both released new boxes, both with their share of problems.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Citivas said:


> 1) Good companies do it. Toyota is famous for proactive recalls for minor, elective fixes without any regulatory requirement to do so. They care about their reputation for quality and would rather admit a mistake than look defensive about it.


Now that I think about it a bit more...

Not really a direct comparison.

Toyota doesn't have the ability to "update" a vehical, unless the vehical is brought to them to be fixed. Also you are dealing with "life and death" type issues... even the "minor" things could become "major things".

How long does it take Toyota to identify the issue?
And when do they tell people?
And when do they start to fix it?

The HR20 is not even 5 months old yet, and DirecTV has "basically" admitted that there are issues by having 12+ software updates.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Citivas said:


> That's great for you. But a lot of people are having more than "a couple issues." As I stated, many DVR users effectively stop watching live TV, so it is hard to economically distinguish the value of the DVR lease from the service fee. In my case, I watch live TV maybe 5-10% of the time. And the HR-20 has successfully recorded roughly 40% of my programming requests. So roughly over half of all my programming has been unwatchable or not recorded. So why should I only get a $5 fee waived? BTW, that doesn't even count that "live TV" is not always watchable either. I'm sure this must have been reported already in detail, but my experience has been once the unit develops whatever issue causes it to record shows as unwatchable, it will persist indefinitley for days-and-days recording unwatchable shows and crash if you attempt to pause and then play. It plays until paused and it pauses fine, but it locks up if you attempt to unpause...
> 
> In any event, my point wasn't that I should get just comps for the exact service level that is disrupted anyway. My point was to "make-good" for providing us such unstable product, they should over-compensate us until such time as we can have basically workable products. It would be a drop in the bucket for them. I don't expect they will do this, mind you. But I was addressing Earl's "what more could they do" question as if any further action were beyond their reasonable control.


I think you will find that many of us that have had issues with the HR20 have gotten more than the DVR service fee as a credit. They're pretty liberal with credits at least in my experience. As you state, it's a drop in the bucket. I still would never expect them to waive my entire service fee.


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## kocuba (Dec 29, 2006)

C'mon HarleyD,
When have you not known software to be released without bugs? Being a DBA you should understand that. If we had to wait for a "perfect" release we might NEVER see it. There are forces at work here beyond that of engineers. You think that the programmers are happy with the product that is out there? 

I write a progam for use by over 1400 people and unfortunately it still has some bugs. Sometimes you can't find them until it has been released into the wild. All we can hope for is that they don't make it worse then it is. I sure some people will feel it worse than others, but that is the nature of the game. If you complain enough to D* you'll probably get some $$ off, hopefully enough so you feel compensated for your loss, or they will let you out of your contract. The last thing they want is for bad publicity.

And by saying you I am not talking to you directly. But I'm sure You understand


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> The HR20 is not even 5 months old yet, and DirecTV has "basically" admitted that there are issues by having 12+ software updates.


You sure you're not an engineer and not a developer, Earl? :hurah:

Every engineer I've ever worked with would go through the following cycle.

"There's not a problem."
"There's not a problem."
"There's not a problem."
"There's not a problem."
"Here's the fix for that problem."


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> But I'm sure You understand


Yes I understand your point, but I also understand that if we let software go to production with bugs as prevalent as what the HR20 is exhibiting, we would be in deep doo-doo. This is a Fortune 500 company I work for. Buggy code would impact thousands of users worldwide.

Some bugs, yes, although QA and Change Management flesh out the bulk of those.

Show stoppers (fatal errors) experienced by 10% or more of the user community...NO. No way nohow.

And GO BUCKEYES!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HarleyD said:


> You sure you're not an engineer and not a developer, Earl? :hurah:


In my 11+ years, I have never had an "exclusive" possition that it was software only.

I have just gotten to a point that where we simply try to fix issues as soon as we can, and go forward.... just the nature of the companies and positions I have been in.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> And I'm glad for you. Really I am.
> 
> But in my opinion anyone who was sent an HR20 was used unwittingly as a test subject.
> 
> ...


But again, if you think of your HR20 for what is "a piece of software", and consider it a version 1.0 then in reality, it is NOT beta software, it is just the first version. When you buy Windows Vista in a couple of months, you can BET when it comes out, within days there will be a ton of updates to fix bugs. There is no way that any software company can test EVERY contingency. It's the nature of the beast. Should you get compensated if the product doesn't work as advertised? Certainly. But do you think MS will be offering refunds to anyone purchasing Vista if there are bugs? I doubt it.

I think the problem with the HR20 is there's no alternative if you want MPEG4 programming. But you know what? If they held back this unit, all of you would be complaning about the lack of new channels, or that your locals are unavailable or whatever. From what I've read, the new E* DVR has a whole host of issues, and the cable DVRS are vastly inferior.

And also remember, we ALL were clamouring for this last update, and it's possible that because of the pressure that D* put it out there before it was really ready. If they hadn't we'd be all whining about THAT.

I'm usually the last person to apologize for D*. Their business model, since News Corp took over stinks. All these upfront charges for equipment we don't own is rediculous. Their installation and distribution stinks, their CSRs are undertrained. But this situation is simply buggy software that is VERY common in all 1.0 releases. Ask ANY programmer.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

We love ya', Earl.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> TiVo still writes the software for the HR10-250... DirecTV employees do not have access to the code. TiVo provides them with compiled versions.
> 
> As for the volume of complaints...
> 
> ...


I happen to think the HR20 can be a better DVR then a Tivo based unit. I like the guide much better, I like that I can schedule a recording by pressing a button without going into some type of confirmation screen, I don't care in the least about dual live buffers. I just want it to record what I tell it, when I tell it, without rebooting twice a week and without the box thinking it recorded something but then it was actually corrupted. You also ask what company admits mistakes, I'll give you one, Microsoft and the Xbox 360, they recently upgraded the warranty on the hardware, that you actually own, to a year after realizing that there is a problem with a great number of units. Of course they won't admit there is a problem, but just the fact they would extend the warranty at great cost to them shows they know there is a problem. Since we lease these boxes Dirctv can't exactly increase the warranty, we don't own them, but they can give us credites for other things, all I was offered by the Tech Supervisor I spoke to last night after complaining that I wouldn't have a new unit in my hands until Monday at the earliest was a credit for the days I was without. What about the recordings I lost, what about missing the football playoff games in glorious HD, yeah it's only tv but if I am paying for it it should WORK.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HarleyD said:


> Yes I understand your point, but I also understand that if we let software go to production with bugs as prevalent as what the HR20 is exhibiting, we would be in deep doo-doo. This is a Fortune 500 company I work for. Buggy code would impact thousands of users worldwide.


Different "Scenerios" with significantly different risk factors.

Is someone threating to take all your "customers" (aka the employees of your company) because you don't have that "new product" out there.

Should the HR20 have been released later? Yep, most likely.
But at what cost? Would another 6 months in the "cooker" have changed anything? Or was the HR20 just at apoint they had to get it out there... and now need to go forward with it's development.

We can't simply compare the HR20 release and launch to "other" industries... as much as I have in the past.... as there are just enough differences, to make it different and not comparable.

The "closest" we can come is .... The TiVo, DishNetwork, or other Cable-Co offerrings.... Hence why the constant comparisons to TiVo... as it is the closest "similar" comparison point.

For an example... look at the Comcast TiVo.... 2.5 years since the announcemnt of the product... and it still is not available. "Supposidly", in the hands of beta testers... and "may" be available in April 07. That would almost be 3 years since they "announced" the product.

And then so in a piece of equipment, that is 3+ years old (the motorola box).
And who is to say it is even going to work out of the box.

Note: I am using this as an example of just how long it can to develope, build, test, ect.. .under another scenerio.

This is not an easy "game"... You have three MAJOR competitors.
DishNetwork, "Cable-Co's", "Fiber"... all of which that are trying to get "their" business.

Advertising compaigns left and right on why "they" are better. So what do you do... Sit on the HR20 for another 6 months? 12? What if you sit on it too long and by the time it is released, no one wants it?


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> But again, if you think of your HR20 for what is "a piece of software", and consider it a version 1.0 then in reality, it is NOT beta software, it is just the first version. When you buy Windows Vista in a couple of months, you can BET when it comes out, within days there will be a ton of updates to fix bugs. There is no way that any software company can test EVERY contingency. It's the nature of the beast. Should you get compensated if the product doesn't work as advertised? Certainly. But do you think MS will be offering refunds to anyone purchasing Vista if there are bugs? I doubt it.
> 
> I think the problem with the HR20 is there's no alternative if you want MPEG4 programming. But you know what? If they held back this unit, all of you would be complaning about the lack of new channels, or that your locals are unavailable or whatever. From what I've read, the new E* DVR has a whole host of issues, and the cable DVRS are vastly inferior.
> 
> ...


Dude, I AM a programmer. And I'm held to a higher standard than what the HR20 has shown to date.

If 1 in 10 users of my code experienced fatal errors, even only intermittently, I would be out here.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HarleyD said:


> We love ya', Earl.


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## kocuba (Dec 29, 2006)

I know I gonna catch some heat for this but c'mon this is televison we are talking about here.

Like you said you release I bad code it can impact how people do their jobs. Same with me. My can affect a persons whole business. But I do still release patches that have bugs in them.. Mainly because my company is too cheap for a QA Tester. So we do the best we can to make sure that we don't impact the underlying data. But we still get the calls that say "You software sucks". Then when we troubleshoot it with them we come to find out it was something that they had installed on the machine and had nothign to do with us. I love those.

So whose to say there is or isn't some conflist problems with hardware. Can't discount it even just a little bit. Will this be a perfect some day? Who knows. But I can bet that eventually the number of satisfied customers will more than out weigh the unsatified ones.

BTW: News Line in Ohio: *Ohio Stores order more Gator meat* Gonna get me some of that. :lol:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HarleyD said:


> If 1 in 10 users of my code experienced fatal errors, even only intermittently, I would be out here.


With no chance to fix it?
Dang... where do you work..


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> But again, if you think of your HR20 for what is "a piece of software", and consider it a version 1.0 then in reality, it is NOT beta software, it is just the first version. When you buy Windows Vista in a couple of months, you can BET when it comes out, within days there will be a ton of updates to fix bugs. There is no way that any software company can test EVERY contingency. It's the nature of the beast. Should you get compensated if the product doesn't work as advertised? Certainly. But do you think MS will be offering refunds to anyone purchasing Vista if there are bugs? I doubt it.
> 
> I think the problem with the HR20 is there's no alternative if you want MPEG4 programming. But you know what? If they held back this unit, all of you would be complaning about the lack of new channels, or that your locals are unavailable or whatever. From what I've read, the new E* DVR has a whole host of issues, and the cable DVRS are vastly inferior.
> 
> ...


I am not forced to buy Windows Vista yet, most popular programs will run just fine on XP for years to come, I am also not under contract with Microsoft for their OS, I can buy a Mac, I have one, or run Linux.

I get my locals in Mpeg 2 and Mpeg 4 so that is not an issue for me, but where are these new channels? Aren't all channels except locals and RSN's in Mpeg 2 anyway?

I had a Time Warner DVR, not HD, and you know what for all of it's shortcomings it WORKED. It recorded what I wanted it to. I also had a R15 prior to the HR20 so don't try and say "well the Directv SD DVR is fine", I know it isn't.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> Different "Scenerios" with significantly different risk factors.


Sort of but not entirely. The work I do is in direct support of sales and marketing in a very competitive, high-pressure business. Time shares (or "vacation ownership" as they prefer to call it around here  ).

Software crashes, hangups and even protracted processing time when someone at a resort is closing a contract is heavily frowned upon here and treated as a priority one emergency.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

NYSmoker said:


> ...
> You also ask what company admits mistakes, I'll give you one, Microsoft and the Xbox 360, they recently upgraded the warranty on the hardware, that you actually own, to a year after realizing that there is a problem with a great number of units. Of course they won't admit there is a problem, but just the fact they would extend the warranty at great cost to them shows they know there is a problem.
> ...


But it did take them a "year" to do it, and for a lot of people... even though they extended the warranty... didn't cover "today" (like me)... So even I didn't have a problem... I really don't benefit from their "admittance".
There is probably a lot more to the "reasoning", then Microsoft just wanting to admit there was a problem.

Similar scenerio's here.
DirecTV has released software updates. 
And I bet if you called and "complained", you would probably get some sort of credit.

But they are not going to proactively just give everyone a credit.

In Microsoft's case... they coudl have simply given everyone "1,000 points" on their live account to say hey... sorry for the problems. (I am just using that as example).


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just because you have a DVR (be it TiVo or DVR+)... that has a problem. Doesn't mean that someone else out there doesn't have the exact same one but does have problems.


With all due respect -- and I appreciate your work here -- this is a cop out in this case. I have been on the various TiVo and DVR forums since at least '98 and I agree with you that the age-old back and forth is if at least 3 people have a particular problem they rage that it is a crisis, then all the people who don't have that problem rush in the defend the box (whichever DVR) or say "I'm happy with mine, it works great" (as if that makes it all right for the people with problems). Us vs. Them.

But in all those years of reading the forums and owning the products, I just have to say this one feels different. Most of my TiVo problems have ultimately resulted from failed hardware, usually the HD but sometimes the modem or the fan. And every release of the software as had bugs, though usually ones that impact someone doing very specific things or trying to record particular shows or with particular TV's or receivers, etc. Usually, but not always. There is no room for absolutes here.

But it feels like a storng majority of people in this case -- something that was never true of any serious TiVo bug -- have experienced critical failures at least some of the time and that these appear to be software rather than hardware related in a majority of the cases.

Some people have experienced these more than others and you and the regular posters here have done a spectacular job of trying to objectively record and analyze that. Really great work. But your comment above to me feels like too big a generalization relative to the available evidence (versus hard facts). I guess some of us would rather see something along the lines of:

"DirecTV unquestionably has some serious issues with the HR-20 that are affecting a wide range of its user base. And unfortunately they have made some questionable decisions about the timing of their releases relative to their stablity. That said, it is still a protect with great potential when they can work out the bugs and I think its worth it to support the product until they do. For those that have been lucky enough not to have the serious issues or only have them infrequently, that's great. But that's no reason to attempt to marginalize the many users with serious issues or to not expect DirecTV to acknowledge it and do everything they can to make up for it until they release a stable product."

I think the strong push back on this Board, beyond the normal venting that is a given on any fourm, is we already know that DirecTV has a history of terrible CSR's who half the time haven't even heard of the DVR then say that you are the only person having a problem, but when people write "defensively" on this board, where the knowledge level is so much higher, it feels like there is an attempt to minimize the issue. That is not the goal, of course, or there wouldn't be so many excellent posts listing the issues out objectively. But if someone says they are furstrated because all they wanted from DirecTV was a working HD DVR and didn't care if it was TiVo's or DirecTV's except the DirecTV one doesn't work and that sucks, just let them say it. It's a perfectly fair statement. Let it go as a truth no more or less credible than the many posts about what people without serious issues like about their box. This is just one of those issues that the more someone tries to defend a statement, the more the other side is going to feel compelled to express their contrary experience, to what end?

Thanks.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> Dang... where do you work..


Marriott Vacation Club (am I allowed to say that?)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

There is no "hard facts" either way... and that is why this is so much of a problem here in forum land.

Really what it gets to is...
It is just as valid to say mine is not having a problem
as
It is just as valid to say mine is having a problem.


And honestly... that is all we want from this forum.
We want people to express their issues... explain what problems they are having.

1) To see if the other users can help that person out
2) To see if it is a genuine problem with the unit, so that we can get it to the right people.

But posts like: It's a POS... bring back TiVo, ect... just simply don't help either way.

And actually was the "basis" for this thread, since the OP posted his cut/paste to the my reply in another forum, basically asking people to stop "jumping" on people that are venting... and stop complainging about people that are venting.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HarleyD said:


> Marriott Vacation Club (am I allowed to say that?)


Only if you get me a free stay..


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Reading this thread gave me a headache  

/takes some Tylenol


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Now that I think about it a bit more...
> 
> Not really a direct comparison.
> 
> ...


The only company that I could recall has admitted publically they were wrong in recent memrory was Coca Cola and "new coke". And that was ONLY after lots of public outcry. Eventually they reverted back to the old Coke. And it took quite some time to go back to the old coke. But, Coca Cola OWNED both products, where D* does not own the software for the TiVos. So yeah, they can admit they were wrong, but what will that really accomplish?


----------



## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> The only company that I could recall has admitted publically they were wrong in recent memrory was Coca Cola and "new coke". And that was ONLY after lots of public outcry. Eventually they reverted back to the old Coke. And it took quite some time to go back to the old coke. But, Coca Cola OWNED both products, where D* does not own the software for the TiVos. So yeah, they can admit they were wrong, but what will that really accomplish?


That was all marketing. I don't think Coke ever had any intention of getting rid of the "original" coke. Boy...this is way off topic.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

kocuba said:


> C'mon HarleyD,
> When have you not known software to be released without bugs? Being a DBA you should understand that. If we had to wait for a "perfect" release we might NEVER see it. There are forces at work here beyond that of engineers. You think that the programmers are happy with the product that is out there?
> 
> I write a progam for use by over 1400 people and unfortunately it still has some bugs. Sometimes you can't find them until it has been released into the wild. All we can hope for is that they don't make it worse then it is. I sure some people will feel it worse than others, but that is the nature of the game. If you complain enough to D* you'll probably get some $$ off, hopefully enough so you feel compensated for your loss, or they will let you out of your contract. The last thing they want is for bad publicity.
> ...


Not sure what your point is. Yes, nothing is truly ever bug free. But I don't see MS -- a company far too liberal with its releases so I certainly don't pick on them as an example of model behavior -- releasing a version of Word that actually deletes and loses users files 40 percent of the time -- or a version of IE that refuses to access the Web half the time. There are bugs and there are critical flaws. Mine, and MANY others, HR-20 DVR works only half the time, making it 0% reliable. That's not an annoying audio out-of-sync issue or a program startng some # of seconds into the recording, or recording the wrong version of a channel. That is a fatal flaw until addressed.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

Citivas said:


> . In what universe is that the most credible explanation? Especially when you consider News Corp's general business partner history and aggressiveness and that they already had a subsidiary in the UK in the DVR business.


Given TiVo's extremely poor business practices from its inception, I don't know, if I had to guess who probably was more responsible for the split, I would choose TiVo. Just because I have seen them make mistake after mistake in their business since they first existed.

Sure it could have all been D*'s greed that caused the split, but given TiVo's poor management for their entire history, It would be hard for me to believe they did not manage to screw it up in some way shape or form.


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## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But posts like: It's a POS... bring back TiVo, ect... just simply don't help either way.


Something tells me if this board was overrun with posts lauding the HR20 in generic non-specific ways you wouldn't have a problem with it.

Not that those are likely to happen anytime soon. :lol:


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> Dude, I AM a programmer. And I'm held to a higher standard than what the HR20 has shown to date.
> 
> If 1 in 10 users of my code experienced fatal errors, even only intermittently, I would be out here.


I may not be a programmer, but I have worked on the support end of the software industry and there are degrees of bugs that would cost a programmer his/her job. The unit functions mostly, and despite it's impact, this is NOT going to affect D*s bottom line or affect the ability of key members of their staff to work. I've been involved in crashes that DO do that, and they ain't pretty, but as long as we work through a solution, jobs are safe. I agree, probably this unit was NOT ready for prime time, but to call us beta testers is rediculous. But consider HOW many people in here would be moaning if the product was NOT out there. Imagine 6 months from now, when there are 30 more HD channels and we cannot watch them. Everyday someone would be on here asking, "when is the MPEG4 unit available"? We'd all be here dissing D* for lack of product.

You also have to consider that there are literally thousands if not millions of different setups that D* had to take into account for this product. Many software releases, especially on a smaller scale or for use within a corproate infrastructue has fairly similar equipment or enough difference that could be properly tested. Since D* cannot test against ALL configurations, the ONLY way to find these bugs is to release the product.

I'm fairly new to the HR20 thread, so maybe someone could tell me if there WERE beta testers for the product outside the D* family?


----------



## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> Dude, I AM a programmer. And I'm held to a higher standard than what the HR20 has shown to date.
> 
> If 1 in 10 users of my code experienced fatal errors, even only intermittently, I would be out here.


You are but one programmer though. A device like the HR20 contains fairly complex code with a tremendous number or dependencies and event sequences. As a long time programmer myself, I can attest to how difficult it is to fully resolve the issues in a complex system. Especially something that is event-driven (as I'm pretty sure the HR20 is).

Something as simple as an event being raised with a variable that is too large could wreak havoc, and that could only be invoked through a different series of actions and events.

It's painful. I do think D* rushed this thing out, but it was driven by various internal and external pressures on them. They're doing what they can to fix it, and have, to date, been pretty fair in terms of compensating myself for the headaches.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ouijal said:


> Something tells me if this board was overrun with posts lauding the HR20 in generic non-specific ways you wouldn't have a problem with it.
> 
> Not that those are likely to happen anytime soon. :lol:


If you go over the post history... (at least as of late).

I try to stay out of those conversations, simply as their is no point.
And if you asked (via PM) to some of those people... on both sides.

We have asked them NOT to post like that.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> I'm fairly new to the HR20 thread, so maybe someone could tell me if there WERE beta testers for the product outside the D* family?


DirecTV does not have an external BETA program (outside their partners)


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

ouijal said:


> Something tells me if this board was overrun with posts lauding the HR20 in generic non-specific ways you wouldn't have a problem with it.
> 
> Not that those are likely to happen anytime soon. :lol:


Does - My 2 have been working virtually withour flaw for over 3 months count as generic non-specific?

I mean since its working ok - what specific is there? I set it to record, it does. I play the recordings, they work.


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## kocuba (Dec 29, 2006)

Citivas, But do you believe they would have releases had they known that they would have those problems? I am one of the fortunate ones that has not had any major problems with my HR-20. But I know it needs work. But if we are on the same software release and running the same hardware it is not very easy to determine where the problem lies. Especially if all you can really talk to is a CSR. There nees to be more troubleshooting ability. But I don't know what that is. 

But my point was that there is no such thing as a perfect software release. Too many variables involved in this type of application anyways. I sure they are doing all that they are allowed to do. I say allowed as apposed to can because who knows what things may influence decisions at D*

I do hope that your problem can be worked out either thru software or hardware so you can raise your reliabilty rate. Good Luck.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

If some of you folks think this is an acceptable level of failure, as evidenced by those of you expressing the opinion that everything has some bugs...well I can't tell you what to think.

I expect better for my money. Not necessarily flawless, but better than this. 

This product is failing to consistently, reliably and predictably deliver its' most basic and core functionality (recording and viewing television programming) to a significant number of users. Period. 

If you're cool with that...


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> If some of you folks think this is an acceptable level of failure, as evidenced by those of you expressing the opinion that everything has some bugs...well I can't tell you what to think.
> 
> I expect better for my money. Not necessarily flawless, but better than this.
> 
> ...


Ok - my 2 work fine, however, I do NOT think there should be major problems. BUT, and its a BIG but...... I don't have ANY idea of what the true percentage of compliants is. I do know that I have been told that it is actually quite low. There are many reasons why it could be low - most important is that the OVERWHELMING majority of users don't post on boards like these and thus don't share issues. But whatever, we have NO TRUE reading, and quite frankly, most that are happy DO NOT take time to post that, you generally only hear from people with a problem or complaint. You seem to think you have the percentage - if so WHAT IS IT ACTUALLY?


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

HarleyD said:


> If some of you folks think this is an acceptable level of failure, as evidenced by those of you expressing the opinion that everything has some bugs...well I can't tell you what to think.
> 
> I expect better for my money. Not necessarily flawless, but better than this.
> 
> ...


If I was "cool with that" I wouldn't be getting a bunch of credits on my bill every month 

Seriously though I much more blame the folks that ran the testing for the new products at D*. These units are extremely complicated especially when compared to a standard receiver.

I have heard rumors that the initial testers from D* that were the "beta testers" for the HR20 didn't even have MPEG4 channels and were actually testing MPEG2 HD locals off of the satellite (several folks in the LA test markets have repeatedly stated their locals are MPEG2 on this forum). If something like this were true, then I would not be surprised at all to see this unit falling apart at the seams once it went live.

My biggest hope is that D* looks at how this release has played out and comes to the realization that they need to broaden their testing and begin to include true beta testing to get this type of release sorted out. One of the earlier posts talked about the number of combinations D* had to worry about, and that would be enough motivation to me, if I ran this development team, to demand a pretty broad beta community.

I can only hope that the recent "Santa" releases are an inkling that D* has gotten a clue.


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## kocuba (Dec 29, 2006)

But I am receiving very good reliabilty I feel for my money. I'm sure I'd be complaining also if I was having the issues that some are having. And I'd be calling D* to fix it, compensate me and/or terminate my contract. But I also understand that we are dealing with an imperfect technology here and if I stayed with it I would have issues until more patches are released. And I'd be [email protected] sure that I was on some sort of quick release list to get the patch to test. Software fixes don't bother me. it is hardware failures that I get steamed about. But that is just me. And as I sure there are some, there does not seem to be many hardware failures.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> You seem to think you have the percentage - if so WHAT IS IT ACTUALLY?


I don't have the percentage and never actually claimed to. I have postulated a figure of 1 in 10 hypothetically since it is actually safely lower than the discussion and polling on these boards reflect without seeming unreasonable.

The only numbers available to me (or anyone else here) are admittedly unscientific and those come from the polling and discussion here at DBStalk. That's why I try to use terms like "significant" instead of figures.

When I throw out a quantification like 1 in 10, that is actually watered down from what those unscientific numbers appear to represent since I know this is a more technical subset of the D* community than the casual television viewer. People who are technical enough to know that discussion group forms exist and know how to find them.

Some of the bugs tracked here like the BSB are reporting at nearly 80%. Missed recordings, Delete Now and lockups are also being reported well above that 1 in 10 figure. I think 1 in 10 is a "safe" figure to toss out there for discussion among "friends".

I'm sure there are satisifed HR20 users out there in the world that are not represented here. Absolutely.

But that is a two-edged sword.

I am also quite confident that there are casual television viewers experiencing these same problems with the HR20 that are not seeking out or finding internet forums as well. The folks complaining here are not every user in the world who has trouble with the HR20.

So all things being equal, I view this as a somewhat "representative" subset of the D* subscriber community. A statistical sampling with an admitted margin for error.

But Earl has even indicated that D* acknowledges problems with the unit. To me that says it is more than an insignifcant number of subscribers having trouble. More trouble than I find acceptable for my investment.

Your mileage may vary. Please do as you wish. My opinion is my own and I only offer it for what it may be worth to others.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Any users having issues... is a "significant" number of users.


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

> My biggest hope is that D* looks at how this release has played out and comes to the realization that they need to broaden their testing and begin to include true beta testing to get this type of release sorted out. One of the earlier posts talked about the number of combinations D* had to worry about, and that would be enough motivation to me, if I ran this development team, to demand a pretty broad beta community.


YES!

That is my point. They could have done better. It should have worked better than it did when it came out. I think they were indifferent personally, but I suppose ignorant is a possibility too.

I don't think it's unreasonable for them to try to make up for it to the subscribers who got on board with this product, whether they report problems or not. They got a product that was not ready.

However, what's done is done. I hope they learn from it.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But it did take them a "year" to do it, and for a lot of people... even though they extended the warranty... didn't cover "today" (like me)... So even I didn't have a problem... I really don't benefit from their "admittance".
> There is probably a lot more to the "reasoning", then Microsoft just wanting to admit there was a problem.
> 
> Similar scenerio's here.
> ...


I did call and complain, I got offered credit for the time I was without a receiver, I couldn't even get a new "working" receiver overnighted via FedEx, overnight is what FedEx is famous for.

My head hurts I am going to read the civilized discussions on Slashdot now.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> Seriously though I much more blame the folks that ran the testing for the new products at D*. These units are extremely complicated especially when compared to a standard receiver.
> 
> My biggest hope is that D* looks at how this release has played out and comes to the realization that they need to broaden their testing and begin to include true beta testing to get this type of release sorted out. One of the earlier posts talked about the number of combinations D* had to worry about, and that would be enough motivation to me, if I ran this development team, to demand a pretty broad beta community.
> 
> I can only hope that the recent "Santa" releases are an inkling that D* has gotten a clue.


Now that's a step in the right direction. There are a large number of people with wildly different user habits on this forum. Certainly a significant number of them would be willing to beta test releases (raising hand, jumping up and down). In this way, the "risks" could be effectively managed. We would be volunteers, with no room to "publicly"complain about a specific beta not working right, or introducing new bugs...we volunteered. Instead of "hoping for the best" and releasing updates in a roll out fashion (as before), release it all over the country to a LARGE number of volunteers, take their feedback and re-release/re-test the beta. When enough of the issues have been resolved, then do a roll out (staggered or otherwise as required by available support staff).

No one needs to be paid, no one needs to be compensated, and I'm sure a reasonable non-disclosure policy could be developed. I'm not talking about an overly restrictive non-disclosure policy either. It would help calm the waters a bit if people knew what kinds of things were being beta tested.

The combination of better code (before general release), and better communication (with a liberal non-disclosure policy), would go a long way to helping D* do a better job with the HR20.

Then we would see, instead of the plethora of complaints, one generally shared complaint, "When are they going to get this next release out of beta?"...because there would be nothing left to complain about, other than the wait.


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## DStern (Nov 11, 2006)

If anyone wants to talk conspiracy theory and forcing an HR20 on people - Look into the last patch of the 10-250....

It took a unit that ran flawlessly and added a ton of issues that make it as much fun as an HR20. :grin: 

BTW Harley, you wouldn't happen to have a video game company working a floor below you? Just curious - If so there are at least 4 HR20s with issues in one office complex!


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## HarleyD (Aug 31, 2006)

I'm on the ground floor, so they would have to be the HR20s from He11.

However, I'm repeating myself. :lol:

Although we do have another corporate complex out in Westwood near I-4 and International. Is that where you are?


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## Cleophus (Dec 31, 2006)

Not "well said".



> No one is "forced" to stay with DirecTV if they are not happy... might cost ya to brake your contract, but that is an issue between you and DirecTV.


My choice based on the product overview and features that were advertised. Features that, to be quite honest, aren't being delivered. I plan to stick it out because I think they will get there. However, anyone who wishes to return the unit and cancel the contract had better be able to do it WITH NO HASSLE whatsoever.

And the "that is an issue between you and DirecTV" Of course it is. What else are we discussing here?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

The Guinness folks are standing by to serious consider for "The worlds fastest growing pissing-contest" record. Over 100 posts back and forth is less than 6 hours.

My goodness...look at all those nasty posts. :eek2: :lol: 

But I'm sure this is all in good fun and for productive purposes.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But I'm sure this is all in good fun and for productive purposes.


Brilliant!

Oh, wait, not that Guinness.:grin:


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

Just admit it dtv drop the ball with this dvr. Although i had very few problems until this latest software update. Dtv did not test these units we pay good money for their service and we are not getting what we paid for. To me if only 1 recording did not work then it failed. I never missed a recording with TIVO.
If we cancel premium channels you will se how fast they would solve these issues. It all about the money. If they start losing money they will fix it. Better yet if we cancel NFLST and SUPER FAN how fast would it take them to fix it.



P.S. 4 rbr, 6 missed recordings in the last 2 days


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

I don't get it, I must be missing something here... I'm sure a lot of people have legitimate gripes with the machines but I've been using 2 HR20s full time now for a month since OTA activation and haven't had any problems except for one RBR because the record light on the front panel wouldn't turn off...

I haven't missed any recordings at all and I'm recording stuff from Sat and OTA. Is it the hardware? I've had one of my machines since launch back in August and was one of the first to say it wasn't ready for prime time and put it away until OTA activation, but with the last few updates I haven't seen any problems...

How come so many people are having so many different problems with the same software while others aren't seeing the problem?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

That is the $64,000 question. 

I'm sure D* would give you all of that willingly if you had the "silver bullet". Unfortunately, there isn't one...the number of variables and potential interactions with user habits is, shall we say....daunting.:lol:


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

VeniceDre said:


> I don't get it, I must be missing something here... I'm sure a lot of people have legitimate gripes with the machines but I've been using 2 HR20s full time now for a month since OTA activation and haven't had any problems except for one RBR because the record light on the front panel wouldn't turn off...
> 
> I haven't missed any recordings at all and I'm recording stuff from Sat and OTA. Is it the hardware? I've had one of my machines since launch back in August and was one of the first to say it wasn't ready for prime time and put it away until OTA activation, but with the last few updates I haven't seen any problems...
> 
> How come so many people are having so many different problems with the same software while others aren't seeing the problem?


I think that many people are having issues just because of different locals and different usage patterns. It's just weird stuff that comes up only in a given users scenarios. Perhaps drive fragementation, some older corrupt recordings, etc. All the more reason D* really needs to broaden their test audiences a bit more.

Me personally, I have had very few problems with 10b. I've had two RBRs (unit stopped responding to the remote), but no missed recordings and no unplayable recordings. Other than those two RBRs and the headache of waiting for it to come back up no issues.


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## jasonblair (Sep 5, 2006)

mnassour said:


> When you had a functioning box and replace it with a buggy one and force your customers to purchase the new box instead of the old, you're not giving customers a choice...


I want GM to sell me a 1965 Pontiac GTO... or a 1962 Impala Super Sport... unfortunately, they will only sell me a 2006 GTO or Impala... WHAT GIVES?!?!? WHY IS GM FORCING ME TO BUY THE NEW MODEL WHEN I WANT THE OLD MODEL?!?!? THEY ARE NOT GIVING CUSTOMERS A CHOICE!!!   

:lol:


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

VeniceDre said:


> I don't get it, I must be missing something here... I'm sure a lot of people have legitimate gripes with the machines but I've been using 2 HR20s full time now for a month since OTA activation and haven't had any problems except for one RBR because the record light on the front panel wouldn't turn off...
> 
> I haven't missed any recordings at all and I'm recording stuff from Sat and OTA. Is it the hardware? I've had one of my machines since launch back in August and was one of the first to say it wasn't ready for prime time and put it away until OTA activation, but with the last few updates I haven't seen any problems...
> 
> How come so many people are having so many different problems with the same software while others aren't seeing the problem?


Overall my HR20 is working fine but the last 2 days have been killing me. I mean 6 missed recordings is crazy. I just don't understand why it was working and the last 2 days this.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jasonblair said:


> I want GM to sell me a 1965 Pontiac GTO... or a 1962 Impala Super Sport... unfortunately, they will only sell me a 2006 GTO or Impala... WHAT GIVES?!?!? WHY IS GM FORCING ME TO BUY THE NEW MODEL WHEN I WANT THE OLD MODEL?!?!? THEY ARE NOT GIVING CUSTOMERS A CHOICE!!!
> 
> :lol:


Did you ask for "A car" or did you ask for a "1965 GTO....". GM shouldn't tell you you were getting a "1965 GTO..." and then send a 2006 geo (Yes, I meant geo.)

Now if you asked and they said "but we ain't got that, would you rather have a..." that would be a choice.

This has become a very interesting thread, lots of strong passions coming out. Clearly, this is not JUST tv.  (Earl, a long time ago, wisely pointed out that TV is our escape.)

Earl, also love ya.

One more comment: If my cat has a very bad flea problem and allergies to most flea powders, I can: keep the fleas, spend lots of money on a flea solution he's not allergic to, put the cat in the fire (gets rid of the fleas everytime!) or get rid of the cat (only to have my wife and family put me in the fire). So, yes I still have choices. All of them not pretty, but I have choices. We all have choices in the interaction with D*. What we object to, often, is how ugly they all seem to be if our HR20 is not working as it should.

May we all find at least one good alternative solution soon and for most of us, may it be a very stable software version for the HR20.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tiger Tony (Dec 16, 2006)

mnassour said:


> Complete disagreement here, Earl, with no disrespect intended.
> 
> 1. DirecTV had a functioning HDDVR.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## dpluta (Sep 5, 2006)

Here, here Harley!!

You are right on the money. The product does not work as advertised and many people have lost a lot of time and energy to the box. They should take the monetary hit and take care of us "unwitting early adopters."

If the box was free, I could stomach the hassles. The fact that it cost me $300 to take part in a beta test is what burns my steak.

Earl, there is a lot they can do beyond taking 3-6 months to fix the problems. It's up to them to realize they released a faulty product, own up to it, and take care of their loyal customers. D* has simply become another cable company. They have their installed base and now could care less about customer service. The only people that make out on satellite now are the newbies. They get four free boxes and installation to sign up for two years. What do I get after 12 years on board? A buggy DVR that cost me $300 and I still had to commit to them for another two years. Doesn't seem very fair to me at all.



HarleyD said:


> 1. Admit they came to market with a problem child.
> 2. Refund the upfront lease $ to their HR20 "beta tester" subscribers. That would include those who are NOT having problems. If you are used as a guinea pig you are entitled to compensation even if you aren't harmed by being the test subject.
> 3. Credit the cost of the HD package to said beta testers to reward them for doing the testing they temselves failed to do for however many months it takes before the unit is stabilized.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

dpluta said:


> Earl, there is a lot they can do beyond taking 3-6 months to fix the problems. It's up to them to realize they released a faulty product, own up to it, and take care of their loyal customers.


I have heard this a few times in this thread and other places.

Honestlly... what does "owning up" to the problems do for us as end users?
Does it mean we are going to get more software releases then we already are?

Is it going to make everyone feel better, that at least DirecTV acknowledges it... and that makes it okay?

All that really matters is that they fix it... and fix it as fast as they can.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> All that really matters is that they fix it... and fix it as fast as they can.


I agree whole heartedly with you. They're working as best they can. If people have a real beef, they should call D* and find out what they will do for you. As I've said consistently in this thread, they've been pretty kind to me in terms of throwing in extra credits on my account so I feel they have owned up to the problems and compensated me accordingly.

If people want D* to have some big press release and PR fiasco to admin their wrongs, it's not realistic. That's all we need... some D* exec giving us his best Jim Baker or Jerry Fallwell impression.... :lol:


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Honestlly... what does "owning up" to the problems do for us as end users?
> 
> All that really matters is that they fix it... and fix it as fast as they can.


I think that people want monetary compensation for their troubles. You know, they way Toyota would give you money back if there's a recall on your car....

... Oh wait, they don't do that. In fact, I can't think of anyone that would do that.

They fix it for free, but last I checked you don't get a discount on it. The fact that D* is fixing the problems, AND willing to give out discounts to unsatisfied customers seems more than fair to me. Sure, 10$ or 20$ off your bill a month doesn't make up for the tongue lashing the wife will give you when Desperate Housewives doesn't record, but they're making concessions, which means they realize there's problems, and they realize that those problems are of their own doing. Sounds pretty much like "owning up" to the problems.

And we all know that in just about every business situation it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease, so if you don't call and voice your displeasure, don't hold your breath waiting for D* to call up and offer you some credits!


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I think that people want monetary compensation for their troubles. You know, they way Toyota would give you money back if there's a recall on your car....
> 
> ... Oh wait, they don't do that. In fact, I can't think of anyone that would do that.
> 
> ...


:hurah: :hurah: :hurah:

I could not agree more...


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

While it is comforting to know that Directv is "working on the problems", I would take more comfort and be more patient if I knew: Directv has seen "my" problems; they can reproduce, and they are working on them. Right now, I know that some of the users here have seen my problems and therefore likely Directv is working on them....but that isn't the same as saying, Mr. Earl and Mr. Tom, we have seen your problem, dedicated resources are working on it and we will solve it as fast as we can. 

And then the understanable blah, blah, blah about how that they can't promise when.  I'm not looking for a specific date, I've worked in this industry way too long. But just knowing they are working on my problem is a lot.

If they don't want to make it public knowledge, the could just PM all of us here... 

Cheers,
Tom


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

tibber said:


> While it is comforting to know that Directv is "working on the problems", I would take more comfort and be more patient if I knew: Directv has seen "my" problems; they can reproduce, and they are working on them. Right now, I know that some of the users here have seen my problems and therefore likely Directv is working on them....but that isn't the same as saying, Mr. Earl and Mr. Tom, we have seen your problem, dedicated resources are working on it and we will solve it as fast as we can.
> 
> And then the understanable blah, blah, blah about how that they can't promise when.  I'm not looking for a specific date, I've worked in this industry way too long. But just knowing they are working on my problem is a lot.
> 
> ...


That I could understand. Years ago I worked for MS in their development support organization and one nice thing they always had was their knowledgebase. You could at least search it to find known issues, and many times they would at least state whether something is actively being worked on and occassionally even list whether it was being resolved in an upcoming service pack.

It would be nice, but I'm guessing D* does not have a comprehensive system that their CSRs could search and share information from the way MS did.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tibber said:


> While it is comforting to know that Directv is "working on the problems", I would take more comfort and be more patient if I knew: Directv has seen "my" problems; they can reproduce, and they are working on them. Right now, I know that some of the users here have seen my problems and therefore likely Directv is working on them....but that isn't the same as saying, Mr. Earl and Mr. Tom, we have seen your problem, dedicated resources are working on it and we will solve it as fast as we can.
> 
> And then the understanable blah, blah, blah about how that they can't promise when.  I'm not looking for a specific date, I've worked in this industry way too long. But just knowing they are working on my problem is a lot.
> 
> ...


The problems I have, DirecTV can't help me with. I need professional help for those! 

I feel you though. Earl has pointed out before that there's a disconnect between the tech side and the customer service side, and I think there's a similar disconnect between the customer service side and the customer. They have their scripted answers that they hand out and that's it. YOu can spend an hour on the phone with them and get the same 6 responses, verbatim, from a bunch of different people.

It would be nice to hear "Yes, we've seen problems X, Y, and Z, and we're currently devoting all out troubleshooting to those problems. Problems L, N, and W, we have seen, and will be addressed after X, Y, and Z are solved."


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## swedishcancerboi (Sep 24, 2006)

If you truly hate the product, why do you still own it? or pardon me, LEASE it.

If I went to some cell phone company, and bought the latest and greatest phone, perhaps with a 6.0 megapixel camera, I would expect it to work.

Sure it takes GREAT pictures, but if I keep dropping calls and the phone keeps resetting, I would take the phone back to the company and demand my money back! Even if it takes excellent pictures, I need a stable phone, not a POS on steroids. I'll get something different.

I would then wait. Someone, somewhere would finally perfect getting the awesome 6.0MP camera to work on a slimlined phone. I wouldn't WAIT for the manufacturer to send me a FIX, I would just return it. I need my phone to work. I also need my camera to take breath-taking photos.

Yet here you are, with your neat little DVR that just so happens to handle Hi-Def. You complain and moan, yet you still have it. Understand that usually demand far exceeds potential. These things take time. 

Return it, go back to your R15+H20 combo. After all, If I really wanted a 6.0MP camera and a working cell phone immediately, I would just buy one of each.

Of course, this comes from a person whose HR20s haven't had any MAJOR problems...


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

jasonblair said:


> I want GM to sell me a 1965 Pontiac GTO... or a 1962 Impala Super Sport... unfortunately, they will only sell me a 2006 GTO or Impala... WHAT GIVES?!?!? WHY IS GM FORCING ME TO BUY THE NEW MODEL WHEN I WANT THE OLD MODEL?!?!? THEY ARE NOT GIVING CUSTOMERS A CHOICE!!!
> 
> :lol:


But that 2006 GTO would work as advertised I would think, there is the problem. What a company advertises and what they actually provide. Right now we are provided with a Piece of Sh*t on a Stick.


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## pdelacorte (Jan 4, 2007)

This is my first post here, and it appears there is some degree of annoyance with posters who complain about the HR20, or say generally mean things about DirecTV, so perhaps I should do my complaining elsewhere. But let me throw caution to the wind.
I've been a happy D* customer for the better part of ten years, with accounts in my house and in a rental unit; I've gradually upgraded to a Series 2 TiVo, the the HR10-250, and finally--because I couldn't get HD local channels without it--to the HR20. The HR20 has been no fun.
I tell myself that it's just a matter of getting used to its non-TiVo controls and its often counterintuitive nature. I take a deep breath when it decides not to record something it had promised to. I figure it only costs me a few extra minutes a day to deal with the recalcitrant trick features. Audio dropouts are not such a terrible thing and never last more than twenty or thirty seconds.
But it stretches my patience. A week ago I needed to use the dread reset button when the HR20 wouldn't give me anything *but* my local channels. I held my breath as it went through the process, and was greatly relieved when all programming on the HDD was unaffected. But not so fast! Last night I tried to watch the last episode of The Wire, which I'd been saving for the just-right occasion, and it had disappeared. Nothing but black screen. Indeed, everything on the hard drive--save 5 episodes of Jeopardy!--had gone away, evanesced, ceaased to exist. The HR20 *thought* everything was still there: it told me 38% of my storage space was used, and it was eager to play all those hours of high-definition black screen for me.
The cheery woman at D*'s second tier told me that I was not alone, that a software download was due in February, and that eventually D* would get it right.
But I have to say this is a mess. And I don't buy the "DirecTV--love or leave it" argument. DirecTV had a great thing going with TiVo. Exactly why they chose to go their own way is obviously open to discussion, but at this point it seems to have been a very bad decision.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

That 2006 GTO has 357 "service bulletins" (read known problems) according to mitchell  I was going to post the titles but that would take a lot a space here:nono2:


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

pdelacorte said:


> DirecTV had a great thing going with TiVo. Exactly why they chose to go their own way is obviously open to discussion, but at this point it seems to have been a very bad decision.


Even that is open to discussion. I just did a google search for Tivo S3 problems and ended up at a Tivo forum, and a quick browse through the titles looks eerily similar to the titles in the HR20 forum.

"I'm scared to get a Tivo Series 3"
"Series 3 Audio Loss"
"Sony TV and lockups on Tivo Series 3"
"TV Gets channels TIVO won't"
"Constantly Rebooting TIVO"
"Audio Dropouts, Choppy Video - Where do I begin!"

Maybe an MPEG4 TIVo box would have worked great. Or maybe it wouldn't. There's at least reason for pause when you look at the Tivo forums....

I realize there are problems, and that they're major for some, but despite what many people think, the grass is NOT always GREENER on the other side of the fence. The newest Tivo release has it's problems as well, so there's no guarantee that the HR20 would be any better if it was running TIVO software....

... Of course, there's no guarantee it wouldn't be better either.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

pdelacorte



> This is my first post here, and it appears there is some degree of annoyance with posters who complain about the HR20, or say generally mean things about DirecTV, so perhaps I should do my complaining elsewhere. But let me throw caution to the wind.


:welcome_s

For alot of the long time members here it's comes down to many new peeps cominghere to simply do nothing but b1tch and moan instead of stating there problem and looking for help or answers to there questions. Which is there right of course, but adds no value to the forum. So it's frustrating to constantly see all of the complaining.



> I've been a happy D* customer for the better part of ten years, with accounts in my house and in a rental unit; I've gradually upgraded to a Series 2 TiVo, the the HR10-250, and finally--because I couldn't get HD local channels without it--to the HR20. The HR20 has been no fun.


Yes, the HR20 as been very frustrating to alot of people.



> I tell myself that it's just a matter of getting used to its non-TiVo controls and its often counterintuitive nature. I take a deep breath when it decides not to record something it had promised to. I figure it only costs me a few extra minutes a day to deal with the recalcitrant trick features. Audio dropouts are not such a terrible thing and never last more than twenty or thirty seconds.


No real comment here other that "recalcitrant", nice word. You don't see that one very often.



> But it stretches my patience. A week ago I needed to use the dread reset button when the HR20 wouldn't give me anything *but* my local channels. I held my breath as it went through the process, and was greatly relieved when all programming on the HDD was unaffected. But not so fast! Last night I tried to watch the last episode of The Wire, which I'd been saving for the just-right occasion, and it had disappeared. Nothing but black screen. Indeed, everything on the hard drive--save 5 episodes of Jeopardy!--had gone away, evanesced, ceaased to exist. The HR20 *thought* everything was still there: it told me 38% of my storage space was used, and it was eager to play all those hours of high-definition black screen for me.


Many people are experiencing this w/ no real resolution to the problem yet. Many ideas have been suggested to gather information and formulate a theory, but nothing firm yet that I am aware of.



> The cheery woman at D*'s second tier told me that I was not alone, that a software download was due in February, and that eventually D* would get it right.


Someone posted something similiar earlier in a different thread. We shall see.



> But I have to say this is a mess. And I don't buy the "DirecTV--love or leave it" argument. DirecTV had a great thing going with TiVo. Exactly why they chose to go their own way is obviously open to discussion, but at this point it seems to have been a very bad decision.


I'm not brave enough to touch the "love it or leave it". 
No one knows for sure wjy TIVO and D* parted ways. There as been lots of theories , but none of us were in the room at the time that I know of anyway.

Good luck to ya!


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

swedishcancerboi said:


> ...Yet here you are, with your neat little DVR that just so happens to handle Hi-Def. You complain and moan, yet you still have it. Understand that usually demand far exceeds potential. These things take time.
> 
> Return it, go back to your R15+H20 combo. After all, If I really wanted a 6.0MP camera and a working cell phone immediately, I would just buy one of each.
> 
> Of course, this comes from a person whose HR20s haven't had any MAJOR problems...


Good post and on the money! Complain all you want, but if you don't return the HR20 and demand a contract adjustment THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE DEMAND and supply and demand drive our economy and corporate direction! That demand is driving all of D*s actions. They are responding as many have pointed out (even if not fast enough for any of us). MOST of us (yes, I'm brass enough to say MOST) are at least reasonably happy with our HR20s or we would have returned them -- hence the demand.


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## NYSmoker (Aug 20, 2006)

houskamp said:


> That 2006 GTO has 357 "service bulletins" (read known problems) according to mitchell  I was going to post the titles but that would take a lot a space here:nono2:


Ok basically:

A GTO takes you from point A to point B.

A DVR records a program and allows you to play it back at some point and actually see a moving picture.

A GTO with 357 "service bulletins" still takes you from A to B or Pontiac fixes it right away.

A DVR with however many bugs does not record a program and allows you to play it back at some point and actually see a moving picture and Directv adds "features" instead of fixing the basic functionality.

Big difference.

Now I have to go watch My Name Is Earl and The Office in my bedroom as the HR20 decided to 771 my local HD NBC tonight.


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## Cleophus (Dec 31, 2006)

"I think that people want monetary compensation for their troubles. You know, they way Toyota would give you money back if there's a recall on your car...."

I don't have to pay toyota off if I want to sell their car and get a different car now, do I?

It's the hassle of getting out of a contract that is the issue.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Cleophus said:


> ....
> I don't have to pay toyota off if I want to sell their car and get a different car now, do I?
> ...


If it is a "lease" you do...

But if you bought it... then you either have to pay the bank off (to get the title), to own it out right... before you can sell it.

But again... this isn't a car... and the "lease" program for the HR20 and other DirecTV receivers... are not the same thing, even though they share the same name. IMHO, the biggest thing DirecTV did wrong... was call this a "lease" program.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

NYSmoker said:


> Ok basically:
> 
> A GTO takes you from point A to point B.
> 
> ...


1. won't take you from point a to b if one of the trans or engine bugs bites you
2. they will get it fixed in a week or 2
3.if your warrentee period is up the bill is yours to pay (recalls are free not SB's)
I remember a few years ago chrysler had an issue with their engine computers mysteriously recieving a 'theft' command on cars without theft systems it would lockup the computer and the car would not start. the only repair was to replace the computer(400$) with a new one that had the programming removed. This was a coustomer pay after only a 3/30k warranty...

p.s. I have been waiting for someone to post a specific car as I am a mechanic and see these pos cars every day.. my favorite is the 3.1/3.4 GM engines that trash a intake gasket every 30k (helps pays my rent) :lol:


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## dpluta (Sep 5, 2006)

Ok, I hear what you're saying. How about the money aspect of it? That's what it really comes down to. As I stated, I could swallow these problems a lot easier if I wasn't one of the old timers that is subsidizing free equipment for the newbies.

I dont expect ALL of my money back, as the box does work intermittantly. I just think it would be fair to refund $100 or $200. I've asked and it's no go.

Thanks.



Earl Bonovich said:


> I have heard this a few times in this thread and other places.
> 
> Honestlly... what does "owning up" to the problems do for us as end users?
> Does it mean we are going to get more software releases then we already are?
> ...


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

jasonblair said:


> I want GM to sell me a 1965 Pontiac GTO... or a 1962 Impala Super Sport... unfortunately, they will only sell me a 2006 GTO or Impala... WHAT GIVES?!?!? WHY IS GM FORCING ME TO BUY THE NEW MODEL WHEN I WANT THE OLD MODEL?!?!? THEY ARE NOT GIVING CUSTOMERS A CHOICE!!!
> 
> :lol:


No sir. You're off base.

The new car will do what the old car would. The HR20 does not perform as did the HR10.

To take your car analogy even further.........Back in the early 70s, American manufacturers were having a LOT of problems with their new vehicles not running properly because of pre-computer anti-smog mechanisms. I remember in particular a 1973 Mercury of ours that ran MUCH worse than did our traded-in 1969 Ford. THIS is the analogy to use for the HR20....a new model that performs worse than the older one.

The new model is faulty. It is not an acceptable replacement.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Honestlly... what does "owning up" to the problems do for us as end users?
> Does it mean we are going to get more software releases then we already are?


Earl, it means that some honcho needs to issue a memo to all the CSRs, ordering them to stop saying "oh, I've never heard that problem before", when someone calls in saying how their recordings are corrupted and that the screen turns black and the machine locks up when you change the channel. Even if that one CSR hasn't heard of the problem, that kind of response belittles the consumer's complaint....especially if that consumer is a poster here.

Bad hardware I can (sometimes) excuse. Bad software I understand. Poor training of the CSRs is inexcusable.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Enough car analogies... Please.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mnassour said:


> Earl, it means that some honcho needs to issue a memo to all the CSRs, ordering them to stop saying "oh, I've never heard that problem before", when someone calls in saying how their recordings are corrupted and that the screen turns black and the machine locks up when you change the channel. Even if that one CSR hasn't heard of the problem, that kind of response belittles the consumer's complaint....especially if that consumer is a poster here.
> 
> Bad hardware I can (sometimes) excuse. Bad software I understand. Poor training of the CSRs is inexcusable.


1 thing you have to remember.. "We" the people in this forum, the people that read the blogs, the people that read the tech websites... are in such a major minority.

"WE" are not what the CSR tier is designed for... 
"WE" are not what the 2nd tier is designed for...
"WE" are actually a CSRs worst nightmare...

Just the way it is.
So for "most" of the callers.. the CSR trying to help them out is just that... the CSR going through the few things on their side... which honestly, short of re-sending the authorization packets, and make sure the user has restarted the box.... Is really all they can do to help the person with the problems.

"WE" know the problems with units is highly probable the software.. .and not hardware... Thus replacements are not going to help.

So sure a Memo will get all the CSRs are the same page.....
But still doesn't change the "end game".

DirecTV is not just "sitting" there and having a debate about should we fix it or not. They have been working on the next release even before the last one was pushed out.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I suspect that many of us have been a CSRs simplest and hardest call not only for Directv, but in almost every aspect of our lives. Simplest when they realise "Ok, this person knows something"; hardest when they realize "Oh, oh, this person left my script before he/she dialed the phone". 

Shoot, I can't even get the geek squad to acknowledge a service bulletin on my laptop most days, unless I print it out for them. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

houskamp said:


> p.s. I have been waiting for someone to post a specific car as I am a mechanic and see these pos cars every day.. my favorite is the 3.1/3.4 GM engines that trash a intake gasket every 30k (helps pays my rent) :lol:


Right on. I ran a small shop for two years (for some owners). We did 12 intake gaskets in the two years I ran the place.....at about a kilobuck each! (and we were cheap, compared to the dealers) Nearly all were just out of warranty, and the problems were WIDELY KNOWN...as you note.

So, let's forget the car comparison...their stories are much worse, and much more expensive than our electronic toys.

Stick to being disappointed with the HR20 for whatever reason...there are a few, to be sure. Save us the car stories...those of us that actually worked with the vehicles know what a real POS is...and expensive ones at that!


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

richlife said:


> Good post and on the money! Complain all you want, but if you don't return the HR20 and demand a contract adjustment THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE DEMAND and supply and demand drive our economy and corporate direction! That demand is driving all of D*s actions. They are responding as many have pointed out (even if not fast enough for any of us). MOST of us (yes, I'm brass enough to say MOST) are at least reasonably happy with our HR20s or we would have returned them -- hence the demand.


Have you actually tried this or heard from someone who has? You seem to be implying DirecTV will simply allow it.

First, you have to wait 80 minutes to even get a person -- I have been on hold for 40 minutes and counting this time (I have given up at 80 min and counting recently) and still have no real person in sight. Then you have to go through the first couple of lame CSR's who know nothing.

Then you have to convince DirecTV to not only accept the return of the HR-20 (they don't just agree to this) but let you out of both the HR-20 membership commitment but also the movers advantage or new customer membership commitment (all made when they had working HD equipment). No chance, so far.

But if they really did all this, and refunded a proration of my "lifetime" DVR that I previously paid them and the used value of all my other boxes for my secondary locations that I had to pay for, then yeah, I would consider it fair to say I can just "go elsewhere."

But I'm still waiting for ANY of the above, let alone all of it. Bottom line: 1) I have made a significant investment in DirecTV hardware and services, from when they had well working products. As it stands, I would have to walk away from that AND pay penalties to leave the membership commitments to go elsewhere to find a working product.


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## thiscopy (Sep 12, 2006)

What was this thread about again?


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

It seems some people want CSR to wave a white flag or something and just blame everything on the box or the software. The problem with that, from a trouble-shooting standpoint, is you end up missing all the people who have other problems besides those directly related to the software. So as Earl mentioned, CSR is not really designed for us. Honestly, if I talk to a CSR for pretty much any electronic device, I humor them. I don't try to get them to stop their spiel, I just do what I can to expedite the process in the nicest way possible. If this means I am standing in my backyard while they think I am switching cables and rebooting my box, so be it.

But there are people out there who might have the wrong cable wired, or might have a problem that can be solved and resolved by the CSR checklists. So it would be a HUGE mistake to have them discard those issues and just start blaming everything on something that can't be directly addressed. In fact in the scheme of things I suspect the majority of CSR calls still fall under the same umbrella of common problems, much more than some people here would like to believe.


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## swedishcancerboi (Sep 24, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Enough car analogies... Please.


Wow, you're right, this is ridiculous.

I liked my cell phone analogy better...

Seems like there needs to be a 'Ventilation' thread.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

The car analogies are "driving" Earl crazy!

Guess we should put the brakes on them.


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## jerkieman (Oct 20, 2006)

I got to admit the way you people defend this product are like radical extremists. I love the whole, oh its 300 bucks but I don’t know anyone who paid that much for it, you can always negotiate that before you buy, etc. This message board is a very small population of the people who have HR20's, do you think they have any idea you can negotiate anything? I think about the average person who has no idea about this board or technology in general, spends 300 bucks on a product that isn’t ready for primetime, and now has no idea what to do. It takes really arrogance on DirecTV’s part to also lock people down into a 2 year commitment when they know the product isn’t ready for primetime. I can’t figure out why people keep apologizing for the product and saying I know it isn’t great yet, but im confident they will get it right. If I knew they didn’t have it right when they released it, I would have waited and got it when it was right.

I personally got the HR20 so I could have the MPEG4, I don't record shows that often, but out of the 20 or so I have tried to record over a 2 month period, about half of them have failed. DirecTV has been pretty bad with the product from the beginning, with the whole supports OTA, and then when you got it home and hooked it up only then do you realize it supports it but oh by the way its not activated yet.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

jerkieman said:


> I got to admit the way you people defend <or condemn> this product are like radical extremists.


I edited the <> inside the quote to put the shoe on the other foot.

Both camps have their "passion driven personalities", and neither of the camps add much meaningful to the discussion.

Who was it that wrote "....full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."? In any case, the author got that part right. (Faulkner?)


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## lyonsce (Dec 22, 2006)

For those that say they miss their old HR10, I say, I don't miss mine. After the 6.0a software update, my local FOX network OTA was unwatchable due to the audio drop outs. I was glad to get rid of it. The UI was slow and I hated it. The HR20 to me is much better. Sure there are bugs, but they are being worked and I believe that the unit will be stable soon (I hope). There is not a product out there that has software that works flawlessly for everyone.


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## Curt Lindner (Jul 29, 2003)

Anyone else here a former E* / Dishplayer user?

I am, and it is that very reason that has me holding off on getting an HR20, and possibly jumping to cable or even back to E*. 

I had 2 Dishplayers, and they basically had all the same types of problems you HR20 owners have been describing. It was so frustrating, it made you want to pull your hair out, if you still had any! They worked great when they worked, and then you lost all of your recordings for no apparent reason. Blue screens, pink screens, we had them all.

I was a daily (hourly) reader of the DBSForums' Dishplayer Forum. Many of us waited, and waited, for E* to release the magical software update that would cure the units problems. After a time, I decided I was tired of waiting, and made the jump in early 2002 to D* and 3 DirecTivos for a very generous new customer discount. At first, I wondered why there wasn't the same active forum community for these units. Then I realized it was because they just worked, and there was no need to be online talking about them when you could be just watching them.

I have huge reservations about purchasing an HR20 and getting back into that situation. Deja vu.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jerkieman said:


> I got to admit the way you people defend this product are like radical extremists.


"Radical extremists"? Seems kinda strong. I would think it's easy for people to defend a product when it does what they want with no problems, which is the case for a large number of folks.

They get defensive when "challenged" that they either don't know what they want, can't possibly be pleased with the HR20, or are called "extremists" and the like.



lyonsce said:


> For those that say they miss their old HR10, I say, I don't miss mine. After the 6.0a software update, my local FOX network OTA was unwatchable due to the audio drop outs. I was glad to get rid of it. The UI was slow and I hated it. The HR20 to me is much better.


A number of us share your pain and your view.

What's really the most "interesting" is how we've gotten to 150 posts in a thread based on a rant. But hey, these are fun to some I guess.  :lol:


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> What's really the most "interesting" is how we've gotten to 150 posts in a thread based on a rant. But hey, these are fun to some I guess.  :lol:


That's the best part. I've personally enjoyed this thread because people are able to really point out some of the bad things D* has done, but most of all I hope people start calling D* and getting some sort of relief (aka credits) if they are having major problems instead of just posting that the HR20 is a POS.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

lyonsce said:


> For those that say they miss their old HR10, I say, I don't miss mine. After the 6.0a software update, my local FOX network OTA was unwatchable due to the audio drop outs. I was glad to get rid of it. The UI was slow and I hated it. The HR20 to me is much better. Sure there are bugs, but they are being worked and I believe that the unit will be stable soon (I hope). There is not a product out there that has software that works flawlessly for everyone.


I'll risk a lot of flaming on this but whatever...

In terms of the TiVo UI being inferior, that's so subjective that I'll leave it alone.

But I would like to present a counter POV about the whole 6.0X version of the TiVo unit being buggy and that's all TiVo's fault issue. Frankly, I don't care that TiVo did the code. All I need to know is that the TiVo code was pretty solid for years -- way, way more stable out of the gate than either the HR-20 code is now, or the latest DirecTV TiVo code is. For years. I don't think you can not hold DirecTV responsible for the release of the TiVo code for their boxes. For years, DirecTV has held tight reigns over the code released to their TiVo boxes. We watched as great new TiVo feature and feature was released on the non-DTV boxes only to be told that DirecTV controlled the code release for their boxes and was suppressing those features. Then we were told by D* that they didn't allow the code to be released because they had their only QC that was more stringent that TiVo that they were responsible for. But now, suddenly, it's all TiVo's fault and D* isn't responsible for what they release on their D+ boxes?

The bottom line is DirecTV has only 2 HD DVR options -- frankly more than most providers -- and has released new code on both at approximately the same time that renders both with serious stability issues. D* had the ability to say yes or no to the TiVo code and to control the timing. Even if you forgive their QC of the TiVo code, why risk the timing of the new release around the same time they are releasing another new HD DVR product that is inevitably going to have newborn growing pains? Why not either release the TiVo code way before he HR-20 or delay it until after when they are confident they have a stable new platform to send people to if there are problems? I just don't buy not holding D* responsible for the overall management of this.

After 52 minutes on hold, I finally got a D* tech last night, BTW. By the time I got to the higher tier people, the guy basically said they are "aware" of the serious recording stability issues with both machines and had no suggestions to offer other than waiting for the software fixes. He basically said I had to accept that I couldn't count on pre-scheduled DVR functionality on either machine right now and there was no point in replacing either since they were known issues affecting most users. He said the 10-250 at least could still be relied on when manually set to record, so he recommended I focus on that (and this was the D* rep basically saying a half-functioning 10-250 was better than the status of the HR-20 right now)...


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## DStern (Nov 11, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> What's really the most "interesting" is how we've gotten to 150 posts in a thread based on a rant. But hey, these are fun to some I guess.  :lol:


LOL - Best count yourself in the "some" - This is your second post on this thread just pointing out how silly the thread is.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

BTW, D* also refused to allow me to return the HR-20 for a refund or cancel my new contract that was a result of getting it, even though they admit it doesn't work right now. And they didn't offer a dime in programming credits, even when I asked... So to the original point of this thread about whether they are "forcing" people to use this unstable box, that feels like forced to me. If I buy something at the store and it doesn't work as advertised, I can return it. If they sell me a bill of goods and don't deliver but then say I'm stuck with it, that's seems like forced to me...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DStern said:


> LOL - Best count yourself in the "some"


I was. I just figured this would die a faster death than it has...


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

lguvenoz said:


> That's the best part. I've personally enjoyed this thread because people are able to really point out some of the bad things D* has done, but most of all I hope people start calling D* and getting some sort of relief (aka credits) if they are having major problems instead of just posting that the HR20 is a POS.


An hour on the phone with D8 didn't get me jack. They admitted striaght up that the HR-20 was having a fatal stability issue with shows not recording but said I would have to wait indefinitely (as in we don't know when it will be or how soon)for the software fix. No credits, no option to return, despite the fact that the box and contract are only 6 weeks old and I have registered complaints about its unstable functionality from the first days with them, but initially acceppted their "we're on it" excuse since my 10-250 was working...


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Citivas said:


> With all due respect -- and I appreciate your work here -- this is a cop out in this case. I have been on the various TiVo and DVR forums since at least '98 and I agree with you that the age-old back and forth is if at least 3 people have a particular problem they rage that it is a crisis, then all the people who don't have that problem rush in the defend the box (whichever DVR) or say "I'm happy with mine, it works great" (as if that makes it all right for the people with problems). Us vs. Them.
> 
> But in all those years of reading the forums and owning the products, I just have to say this one feels different. Most of my TiVo problems have ultimately resulted from failed hardware, usually the HD but sometimes the modem or the fan. And every release of the software as had bugs, though usually ones that impact someone doing very specific things or trying to record particular shows or with particular TV's or receivers, etc. Usually, but not always. There is no room for absolutes here.
> 
> ...


From the originator of this "well-intentioned" thread...Thank you, well-stated!!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Never said it was all "TiVo, Inc's" fault.... DirecTV does have to share some of the responsiblity for letting the 6.x release to go out.

But ultimately... yes... they wrote it.
But again... if DirecTV sat on it for ANOTHER 6-12 months...
What do you think the forum boards and the media people would be saying...

Not that TiVo hasn't gotten a propper version working... but that DirecTV is deliberatly trying to make people switch.

And regardless what "higher tier" people say on the CSR tier... they are "aware" of the issues today... they certainly where not "aware" of them when the first version went out.

As show by the "differences" in 6.3a and 6.3b... 1 file changed... to address the audio issues. That is it.

As for a 6.3c or any other "future" future... right now that is in TiVo, Inc's court... bottom line.. that is where it is... DirecTV can't do anything without TiVo's assistance.

As for a half-functioning HR10-250 being better then HR20...... everyone is allowed their own opinion.

If anyone shoudl learn anything from this forum, and others.

There is a significant "disconnect" between the technology teams and the CSR tier at DirecTV... they are not on the same page... and sometimes I wonder if they are using the same book. Don't know why... just is... and has been that way pretty much since the start.

I do know that they are trying to correct that issue. I have heard from a lot of CSRs that have been spending a lot of time in training sessions. But they are just a small handfull of the entire CSR force... so....

One other "major" concern for the HR10's.... It is not effecting "everyone" either. Just like the HR20.... So there must be factors in play, that even a "lab" can't recreate.... Then you mix in all those that have "tweaked" version.


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## etchasketch (Dec 21, 2006)

OK, have read this thread start to finish, and (forgive me Earl, and all those wanting no more car analogies):
_
I know several people who had a Ford Pinto that didn't explode, so we all wondered what the fuss was about._

Bad example perhaps, since this is just about TV, not life threatening (no matter what your significant other says).

Or, good example, since they pulled the Pinto? The thread makes me reconsider a DVR from ANY company right now!

Are there any really good VCRs? Poignant methinks since my faithful Mitsubishi just went in the trash bin this week.

Sure, the right DVR can record in HD. But, since I can't get HD installed. A trusty VCR might meet my needs after all.

Tech can consume available lifetime. How much time ya got for this nonsense? I'm running low if anyone has extra.

Back to Watergating (just listening in). Carry on! 

etchasketch

ps - CSR's worst nightmare? Hardly. Like the power company, they don't know there is a problem until enough people call. Customers are an external sensor feeding intel to the hub. No news is good news.


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> There is no "hard facts" either way... and that is why this is so much of a problem here in forum land.
> 
> Really what it gets to is...
> It is just as valid to say mine is not having a problem
> ...


Earl, in case you haven't figured it out yet, my post was driven by your statement (thus attitude) of "no one forced you to get an HR20"!!! As I explained in the original post, that attitude is a recipe for disaster if adopted by D*TV...therefore, one should be careful before telling a frustrated user "too bad"!!!!!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

perilous said:


> Earl, in case you haven't figured it out yet, my post was driven by your statement (thus attitude) of "no one forced you to get an HR20"!!! As I explained in the original post, that attitude is a recipe for disaster if adopted by D*TV...therefore, one should be careful before telling a frustrated user "too bad"!!!!!


I responded to your post in the other thread.

The reply you where quoting, was me basically asking the people that where "venting" on the people who where "venting"... to stop that... And had nothing to do with stoping people from talking about the issue with the box... or wanting them to get fixed.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But again... if DirecTV sat on it for ANOTHER 6-12 months...
> What do you think the forum boards and the media people would be saying...
> 
> Not that TiVo hasn't gotten a propper version working... but that DirecTV is deliberatly trying to make people switch.


You are absolutely right about this. D* would have been bashed for not getting the new code out and it would have been stated by some that they were stalling it to try and force people to the HR-20's. Definitely.

But so what? D* has been bashed for a couple years now consistently for not releasing updates to the code on their boxes while other TiVo's get more and more features. It is not like this is unique.

So all things being equal, I would argue that the responsible approach for DirecTV if you are "damned if you do, damned if you don't" is to logically not risk an even bigger problem with the simultaneous releases. If they delayed the TiVo upgrade, people are just throwing names at them. When they release both and blow it on stability on both at the same time, they've armed everyone with sticks and stones.


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

I have a sneaking suspicion that many of these "The HR20 sucks" NON-constructive critisizing whiners are the same kind of people that whine in the winter because it's too cold and in the summer because it's too hot. You just can't please some people. 
And they feel compelled to ***** and forums give them an audience they would otherwise not have. Others are just instigators. They pick up on hot topics in forums and exagerate them to incite conflict for their entertainment.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Jon D said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that many of these "The HR20 sucks" NON-constructive critisizing whiners are the same kind of people that whine in the winter because it's too cold and in the summer because it's too hot. You just can't please some people.
> And they feel compelled to ***** and forums give them an audience they would otherwise not have. Others are just instigators. They pick up on hot topics in forums and exagerate them to incite conflict for their entertainment.


That's the kind of BS that just fuels these threads in the first place. But perhaps that was your point -- you were looking to provoke a response.

I'm wondering if your HR-20 resets almost daily and fails to record half your programming? If so, it is interesting you consider having a problem with that whining. If not, then who are you to say that those that do are just whining?

What does complaining abot the seasons, BTW, have to do with a product that doesn't work half the time (which makes it reliable none of the time)?
And why do you think there is exageration involved? Just because it hasn't happened to you? D* has acknowledged this issue. The survey on this very site has something like an 80% response rate of people who have experienced it. If you haven't, you are in the minority.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Jon D said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that many of these "The HR20 sucks" NON-constructive critisizing whiners are the same kind of people that whine in the winter because it's too cold and in the summer because it's too hot. You just can't please some people.
> And they feel compelled to ***** and forums give them an audience they would otherwise not have. Others are just instigators. They pick up on hot topics in forums and exagerate them to incite conflict for their entertainment.


Or perhaps they are just pissed off because they feel like DirecTV lied and cheated them by making them commit to a 2 year agreement in order to get the only HD DVR they provide, while providing a very buggy product that fails to deliver. Hum, maybe they are just pissed off. Do you think that might be possible?


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## jclark (Oct 4, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I was. I just figured this would die a faster death than it has...


Are you kidding? With people that think that the HR20 can do no wrong, and people that think that the HR20 can't do anything right, how can this not go on forever? LOL!


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

jclark said:


> Are you kidding? With people that think that the HR20 can do no wrong, and people that think that the HR20 can't do anything right, how can this not go on forever? LOL!


I can't speak for the other camp, but I think the HR-20 may eventually be perfectly fine DVR. Some things I like about the TiVo UI better and a few things I prefer about the HR-20. Same with the remote, etc. So I think it could do many things right...

When it eventually works.

It's hard to get past that for now. For many, it doesn't work yet. If I have to cross my fingers every time I turn of the TV that it will have recorded my shows or not locked up or that the remote will work, etc., I don't yet have a product -- I have the notion of what one will be when its worked out. Not perfect -- these things enever are -- but basically reliable.

So I want to be clear -- I am not an HR-20 hater. I just want a reliable HD DVR now, while I am paying for programming and watching, not at some point in the undefined future when the prime time TV season is over. I also am clearly not a DirecTV hater or I wouldn't have 12 years as a customer. But I do think they have made many more missteps in the last two years than they used to and that the competion now offers comparble products which they didn't used to. I want them to get it right -- I am pulling for them, because I would rather support the team I have for 12 years. But my loyalty is not unequivical.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

jclark said:


> Are you kidding? With people that think that the HR20 can do no wrong, and people that think that the HR20 can't do anything right, how can this not go on forever? LOL!


That's the way technology forums often go. Those with problems get extremely "anti" because of all the "what're you talking about, no trouble here" posts. Those who are getting satisfactory results get defensive because of all the "POS" comments. It gets real polarized.

A lot of folks like me--people with several lockups but no severe issues--get tired of posting because no one wants to acknowledge the middle ground.

I suspect (no, I have no data to back this up) that there are a lot of people who are pretty happy, even though the unit is not 100% perfect for them. I am one of them. But once the issue gets polarized, comments like these get drowned out.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> That's the way technology forums often go. Those with problems get extremely "anti" because of all the "what're you talking about, no trouble here" posts. Those who are getting satisfactory results get defensive because of all the "POS" comments. It gets real polarized.
> 
> A lot of folks like me--people with several lockups but no severe issues--get tired of posting because no one wants to acknowledge the middle ground.
> 
> I suspect (no, I have no data to back this up) that there are a lot of people who are pretty happy, even though the unit is not 100% perfect for them. I am one of them. But once the issue gets polarized, comments like these get drowned out.


The truth for me is that ALL of the comments tend to get drowned out. People on the 'anti' side tend feel they have to speak for the great masses in order to have credibility (without any stats). The compliants seem to be more 'rage' than anything else. Earl has said it correctly when he said even 1 bad box is significant. Problem is someone threw out an UNSUBSTANTIATED 10% number and everyone seems to have adopted it as fact. I can assure you that if the actual number was ANYWHERE near 10% it would have been taken off the market - that high a number would be suicidal for a company - especially to continue to pump out hardware.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

paulman182 said:


> ....--get tired of posting because no one wants to acknowledge the middle ground.


And that is EXACTLY what we don't want to happen here on the forum.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And that is EXACTLY what we don't want to happen here on the forum.


Last night I had to watch something on the HR20 because my HR10, for some reason, just neglected to record it. Last night, while watching TV, my R10 spontaniously rebooted itself for no reason.

Just sayin'.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

I have to say that I am truly shocked to hear that some people are being offered nothing from D*. If I recall correctly, you have 90 days to cancel any service or order with them (at a minimum it's 30, but I believe it is 90) with no penalties or concerns.

I need to go dig up the contract stuff and take a look, but it seems a very precarious position to be in for them to offer nothing when the hardware they provided does not deliver the advertised capabilities.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> The truth for me is that ALL of the comments tend to get drowned out. People on the 'anti' side tend feel they have to speak for the great masses in order to have credibility (without any stats). The compliants seem to be more 'rage' than anything else. Earl has said it correctly when he said even 1 bad box is significant. Problem is someone threw out an UNSUBSTANTIATED 10% number and everyone seems to have adopted it as fact. I can assure you that if the actual number was ANYWHERE near 10% it would have been taken off the market - that high a number would be suicidal for a company - especially to continue to pump out hardware.


Personally, I have never referred to the box as a POS or even implied it. I have only stated it is unreliable at this point in time.

I have no idea what the percentage is myself. That said, I am curious, if it really is so small, why wouldn't D* address those with the severe level of failures by replacing their boxes? I asked for this last night but was told by the allegedly senior (3rd level) tech that they were no longer doing these because they have determined that it is a software issue affecting "most" users (his words, not mine) and therefore it wouldn't help to send me a new box and all I can do is wait. if this problem really is only affecting less than 10% of boxes, I would prefer to take my 90+ percent chances and hurry up and get a new box. But D* doesn't seem to think that is the case. Or at least their public representaives don't.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

My HR20 was more trouble-free under the last firmware than this one. I don't think it suffered a single lockup under the last firmware, as opposed to about 4 or 5 with the current download.

Perhaps they created problems with the latest firmware and are acknowledging that.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Citivas said:


> So all things being equal, I would argue that the responsible approach for DirecTV if you are "damned if you do, damned if you don't" is to logically not risk an even bigger problem with the simultaneous releases. If they delayed the TiVo upgrade, people are just throwing names at them. When they release both and blow it on stability on both at the same time, they've armed everyone with sticks and stones.


What they should have done (turn on 20/20 hindsight mode here) was keep Tivo for another 12 months while their OWN box was finished properly. But no, we have to throw out the bathwater, the baby AND the bathtub.

As for my own box, it returns to D* this weekend as a replacement has arrived. Yes, I decided to give it another shot. Just a glutton for punishment, I guess..........


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

mnassour said:


> What they should have done (turn on 20/20 hindsight mode here) was keep Tivo for another 12 months while their OWN box was finished properly. But no, we have to throw out the bathwater, the baby AND the bathtub.
> 
> As for my own box, it returns to D* this weekend as a replacement has arrived. Yes, I decided to give it another shot. Just a glutton for punishment, I guess..........


The problem D* was faced with was MPEG4. They haven't paid Tivo a dime for two years. 12 months would have made no difference from their end unless Tivo offered them some quick solution to add MPEG4 to the existing HR10-250.

Without the addition of MPEG4 D* was struggling from a capacity perspective, and it is a key part of their long term growth. They needed MPEG4 support quickly and once they let the H20 receiver out the door, everyone was banging even louder for an MPEG4 DVR.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Citivas said:


> Personally, I have never referred to the box as a POS or even implied it. I have only stated it is unreliable at this point in time.


On that, I think we can all agree. Unfortunately, there are those out there who make postings about it being a "POS" after a reboot or a couple of reboots. Those are the posts that get old. I think you are in the middle ground that so often gets ignored - acknowledging that there are stability issues affecting many users, and that if the stability issues can be rectified, the product has potential....



Citivas said:


> I have no idea what the percentage is myself. That said, I am curious, if it really is so small, why wouldn't D* address those with the severe level of failures by replacing their boxes? I asked for this last night but was told by the allegedly senior (3rd level) tech that they were no longer doing these because they have determined that it is a software issue affecting "most" users (his words, not mine) and therefore it wouldn't help to send me a new box and all I can do is wait. if this problem really is only affecting less than 10% of boxes, I would prefer to take my 90+ percent chances and hurry up and get a new box. But D* doesn't seem to think that is the case. Or at least their public representaives don't.


I think the general consensus both by the "techie" users here and by D* is that it is most definately a software issue. There have been a number of reports by people who have gone through 2 or 3 or 4 boxes all experiencing the same problems. That and the fact that many who have done a complete clean and wipe of the system have reported incresed stability.

I'm not necessarily a "techie", certainly not in the tech profession at all, but looking at this from an outsiders perspective, it seems to me that the HR20 just isn't able at this point to handle simple hiccups in the system that occur every day. Be it a lost signal, or the end of a sports broadcast, or specific sequence of key presses or combination of programming. For whatever reason, the right circumstances line up and the box goes psycho.


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

Citivas said:


> That's the kind of BS that just fuels these threads in the first place. But perhaps that was your point -- you were looking to provoke a response.
> 
> I'm wondering if your HR-20 resets almost daily and fails to record half your programming? If so, it is interesting you consider having a problem with that whining. If not, then who are you to say that those that do are just whining?
> 
> ...


No. My HR-20 has not reset itself once since I got it in september. It messed up one recording of CSI in October. There are a lot of things about the HR-20 I'm not fond of. And when I notice a bug or problem I bring it up in a forum in a constructive fashion. I think DirecTV is doing a pretty good job attacking the problems with these machines.

As for my analogy, the point was that people who like to complain will always find something to complain about.

I personally come here to get help and find out answers to my questions. Seeing entire threads about how much of a POS someone thinks something is does not help me or anyone else. It's just irretating. But, thanks for proving my points.


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## Jon D (Oct 12, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Or perhaps they are just pissed off because they feel like DirecTV lied and cheated them by making them commit to a 2 year agreement in order to get the only HD DVR they provide, while providing a very buggy product that fails to deliver. Hum, maybe they are just pissed off. Do you think that might be possible?


LOL Clearly YOU are. Good Lord.

Ok. I'm done with this thread. I'm getting dragged down here.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

I agree with this. The 6.3 update(s) simply should not have been released without more thorough testing, and D* bears the ultimate responsibility for this. Sure, some folks would have "bashed" them for not upgrading...but frankly things had reached the point where few of us expected a 6.x upgrade on the HR10 and had learned to live with its pokiness.

On the other hand, I do give them some credit for attempting the HR10 upgrade to keep its owners happy. As opposed to the conspiracy theorists who feel that the problems with 6.3 were somehow a deliberate move to get people onto the HR20 platform, I believe they want(ed) to keep HR10 owners happy so that those who don't want/need MPEG4 locals would be more likely to stay with the HR10 (thus allowing D* to spread Ka/Ku dish and DVR upgrades out over a longer period of time).



Citivas said:


> You are absolutely right about this. D* would have been bashed for not getting the new code out and it would have been stated by some that they were stalling it to try and force people to the HR-20's. Definitely.
> 
> But so what? D* has been bashed for a couple years now consistently for not releasing updates to the code on their boxes while other TiVo's get more and more features. It is not like this is unique.
> 
> So all things being equal, I would argue that the responsible approach for DirecTV if you are "damned if you do, damned if you don't" is to logically not risk an even bigger problem with the simultaneous releases. If they delayed the TiVo upgrade, people are just throwing names at them. When they release both and blow it on stability on both at the same time, they've armed everyone with sticks and stones.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Jon D said:


> No. My HR-20 has not reset itself once since I got it in september. It messed up one recording of CSI in October. There are a lot of things about the HR-20 I'm not fond of. And when I notice a bug or problem I bring it up in a forum in a constructive fashion. I think DirecTV is doing a pretty good job attacking the problems with these machines.
> 
> As for my analogy, the point was that people who like to complain will always find something to complain about.
> 
> I personally come here to get help and find out answers to my questions. Seeing entire threads about how much of a POS someone thinks something is does not help me or anyone else. It's just irretating. But, thanks for proving my points.


Thanks for proving ours... Again, I have never called or implied it is a POS and from looking over this particular post I haven't seen anyone else either. What I've seen is some people who are having major problems with theirs and not getting anywhere with D* who simply are responding to others who from our POV appear to be minimizing what we are experiencing. Your seem to by a poster child for fanning this fire. At least most people here are arguing of specific technical grounds one way or another. You just like to throw out insults when none had been provoked. You happen to have no problems with your unit. According to a poll of 300 people on this Board, that makes you 1-in-5 of us. So instead of just ignoring this thread because it is not relevant to your situation, or posting like some have, "That's too bad, I feel your pain" you feel compelled to try to trivialize or even deride anyone who isn't as lucky as you.

In any event, I'm sure Karma will eventually catch up with such an attitude. Good luck with that.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

For my 2 cents - this thread is ending up like virtually ALL threads regarding HD, and new technology, and so on. And not just about D*, but also E*, cable, FIOS - ALL PROVIDERS.

What I'm saying - there are so many points of views. so many vantage points, so many desires, etc., and EVERYONE seems to want to get EVERYONE else to agree with them. And just like in all the other threads, people begin to take all of this personal, the name calling, etc. 

No matter what is done, what is accomplished, what goes wrong (or what goes right), there are going to be complaints, and here's what I want, and so on. On this thread alone there has to be over 10 posts stating - 'here's what D* SHOULD have done. It's almost too funny already. That company makes hundreds of millions - it serves OVER 15 MILLION subs, and WE have the answers - yeah right.

And as ususal the same result, a total disintegration of the original topic.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> As opposed to the conspiracy theorists who feel that the problems with 6.3 were somehow a deliberate move to get people onto the HR20 platform, I believe they want(ed) to keep HR10 owners happy so that those who don't want/need MPEG4 locals would be more likely to stay with the HR10 (thus allowing D* to spread Ka/Ku dish and DVR upgrades out over a longer period of time).


You may be right. I have no idea. I certainly doubt they maliciously intended to tank the 6.3 code and even if they had why would TiVo have been complicit? My personal guess -- and just a guess -- is that TiVo contractually owed DirecTV another code/feature revision, but it took this long thru a combination of D* not initially being quick to approve the spec, then TiVo, by then knowing the relationship was ending prioritizing it as low as possible. My guess is the timing of the release in the end was a coincidence. I think they just didn't apply enough proactive reasoning when the release became available to say, "hold on a sec., what is my exposure here vis a vie the timing of the HR-20 release?" Possibly even two different internal D* teams with little or no coordination...

In any event, an academic point. It doesn't matter as the deed is done and now they just need to do something about it...


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Citivas said:


> You may be right. I have no idea. I certainly doubt they maliciously intended to tank the 6.3 code and even if they had why would TiVo have been complicit? My personal guess -- and just a guess -- is that TiVo contractually owed DirecTV another code/feature revision, but it took this long thru a combination of D* not initially being quick to approve the spec, then TiVo, by then knowing the relationship was ending prioritizing it as low as possible. My guess is the timing of the release in the end was a coincidence. I think they just didn't apply enough proactive reasoning when the release became available to say, "hold on a sec., what is my exposure here vis a vie the timing of the HR-20 release?" Possibly even two different internal D* teams with little or no coordination...
> 
> In any event, an academic point. It doesn't matter as the deed is done and now they just need to do something about it...


All in all, D* made a mess of both units in the span of a few months. Our old SD DirecTivo unit has started spontaneously rebooting on a regular basis and not recording shows. Almost as bad as the HR20


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

Maybe someone should take a survey
1. HR20 works flawless never had a problem
2. HR20 has problems

How many people can honestly answer number 1


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Maybe someone should take a survey
> 1. HR20 works flawless never had a problem
> 2. HR20 has problems
> 
> How many people can honestly answer number 1


We have had those polls before... and it all results in the same.
People start to "justify" problems, as being acceptable.
Then it turns to well ask the same quesiton of TiVo powered units... and then the justifications go the same way.

Bottom line still is...

The HR20 has some issues that need to fixed... and DirecTV is trying to fix them. 
Some people have had no problems.
Some people have had problems they are "fine with"
Others are frustrated with the problems, and are considering something else.
Others have had enough and are just "done with it".


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

lguvenoz said:


> All in all, D* made a mess of both units in the span of a few months. Our old SD DirecTivo unit has started spontaneously rebooting on a regular basis and not recording shows. Almost as bad as the HR20


What did they do to your SD unit?
IIRC there hasn't been a software release for the SD units in almost a year.

I have seen the "guide" issue posts and other things. But shouldn't the TiVo software been smart enough to deal with Bad Data...  (This is a joke/jab at people saying the DVR+ shoudl be able to handle bad data)....


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Which is EXACTLY what my Samsung 360 receiver started doing about 3 months ago. (spontaneous reboots) That is what pushed me to get the HR20. Without a doubt, the HR20 has done much better than the 360 did towards the end of its life-cycle. Whether the 360 failure was the inability to handle new things in the data stream, or just plain worn out, I have no idea. (I do have my theories...and I don't think it was age)

Now, if I were so inclined (and I am far from it), I could construct a beautiful, perhaps convincing rant that D* broke my 360 with complete indifference in search of their new approach and how they should be pay me for it, or not changed the data stream, or ....ad nauseum.

Bottom line is we have to play the cards we were dealt, and not make ourselves miserable in the process. (unless we like being miserable...one wonders sometimes). 

I'm not going to waste my time...

If the discussion is not geared towards reporting/reproducing/fixing problems, or ways to enhance performance and understanding of the HR20, I'm not going to play. It isn't remotely amusing, productive or rewarding. 

I think I've finally reached the point where not only do I not care what anyone else thinks about the HR20....I don't care what I think about it either. 

Now, let's see how we can go about making this thing a better product for all of us.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What did they do to your SD unit?
> IIRC there hasn't been a software release for the SD units in almost a year.
> 
> I have seen the "guide" issue posts and other things. But shouldn't the TiVo software been smart enough to deal with Bad Data...  (This is a joke/jab at people saying the DVR+ shoudl be able to handle bad data)....


D* said basically the same thing to me last night. I inquired about dropping one of my HD receivers for now and putting back into circulation one of the older SD DirecTiVo's I have lying around -- at least 3 of them -- so I could have SOMETHING that I could rely on to record until they worked all this out. The rep said not to do it because they now believe ALL makes and model of the DirecTV TiVo units, going back to the first gen SD's, are experiencing the same problem with the Season Passes changing the status of shows to "not record" because "someone in the household has changed the request, etc..". Not every unit, but all models. He also said they hadn't pushed any software upgrade in the older units and implied (far from stated factually) that it therefore may have been some time bomb in the code common to all the machines.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Maybe someone should take a survey
> 1. HR20 works flawless never had a problem
> 2. HR20 has problems
> 
> How many people can honestly answer number 1


I don't think its fair for any survey to ask if it works flawlessly since every system has some bugs and the risk of hairware failures.

There already is a survey on this board though that asked specifically about the dreaded black screen issue (of which their appears to be multiple variations depending on who's definition applies) and it is running 80/20 in favor of those who have had it with almost 300 respondents.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Citivas said:


> D* said basically the same thing to me last night. I inquired about dropping one of my HD receivers for now and putting back into circulation one of the older SD DirecTiVo's I have lying around -- at least 3 of them -- so I could have SOMETHING that I could rely on to record until they worked all this out. The rep said not to do it because they now believe ALL makes and model of the DirecTV TiVo units, going back to the first gen SD's, are experiencing the same problem with the Season Passes changing the status of shows to "not record" because "someone in the household has changed the request, etc..". Not every unit, but all models. He also said they hadn't pushed any software upgrade in the older units and implied (far from stated factually) that it therefore may have been some time bomb in the code common to all the machines.


Another CSR that doesn't understand how the Guide Data works.
It is all about the changes in the guide data.

It is not a "time bomb" that is in the code. it has to do with changes with the guide data... changes that DirecTV has done, Tribune Has Done, the Networks have done, ect.

There is no "time bomb"... if there was... ALL 100% of the units would be having the issues, and that isn't the case.

It would make no sense to deliberatley "piss off" more then 2 million users, by "deliberatly" breaking their units... which would take MONTHS if not the entire year to swap out with a different model.


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

Citivas said:


> I don't think its fair for any survey to ask if it works flawlessly since every system has some bugs and the risk of hairware failures.
> 
> There already is a survey on this board though that asked specifically about the dreaded black screen issue (of which their appears to be multiple variations depending on who's definition apples) and it is running 80/20 in favor of those who have had it with almost 300 respondents.


Some people say they never had a problem which I total dis agree with. I had my HR20 since 10/24/06 I had my share of minor problems that i could live with until the other night i had 4 rbr and 6 missed recordings. I just dont understand why now I had this problem


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Some people say they never had a problem which I total dis agree with. I had my HR20 since 10/24/06 I had my share of minor problems that i could live with until the other night i had 4 rbr and 6 missed recordings. I just dont understand why now I had this problem


And I can say the same, with people who have said they have never had a problem with thier TiVo.

Honestly... we have had the polls before.. .and right now... it is basically going to turn into the same thing this thread has.

But if you want... go ahead and start the poll... I won't shut it down.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

JACKIEGAGA said:


> Some people say they never had a problem which I total dis agree with. I had my HR20 since 10/24/06 I had my share of minor problems that i could live with until the other night i had 4 rbr and 6 missed recordings. I just dont understand why now I had this problem


That is the nasty of it all. It appears you can have a mostly working HR20 for long periods, you can have one that just sucks ass for long periods, you have have a working box go bad and then you can have a box with all kinds of problems just start working fine.

I have had times where I was ready to toss it out the window and then I have gone 2 or 3 weeks with out a problem. Go figure.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

btmoore said:


> I have had times where I was ready to toss it out the window and then I have gone 2 or 3 weeks with out a problem. Go figure.


In a nutshell, the latest update - 10b - was sucky for some folks and just fine for others. I think everyone in this lengthy, lengthy, lengthy thread agrees that isn't acceptable to the general customer base.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In a nutshell, the latest update - 10b - was sucky for some folks and just fine for others. I think everyone in this lengthy, lengthy, lengthy thread agrees that isn't acceptable to the general customer base.
> 
> Good thing the next update is coming very soon...oops, I mean good thing the next update will be much better.


Based on the history of HR20 releases, it just takes time. The longer the release is out, more opportunity there is for the serious bugs to present. On top of that as time goes by we have a larger users base so again we have a larger sample and since the defects seem to have a some what random pattern. We now have more people reporting earlier. Many of the worst bugs have been with the HR20 from the start, why should we think the next update will be much better?

This is what happens every time:

D* releases new code, the release notes state "Multiple Stability Fixes", everyone is optimistic, all systems are now on a fresh start and have had a clean reboot, we have some early reports of lockups unwatchables, or other problems but there is not a critical mass yet so they are sort of discounted as outliers, proclamations are made about how this is the best release yet, a few days go by and then we start to get a bunch of reports of problems, typically, unwatchable, unexplainable canceled programs and interface lockups (same bugs we have seen in every prior release). Somewhere in this cycle there are 3 users who will start posting about how their HR20 has never had a problem and everyones problems are hardware problems and if they just read the manual and fixed their connections we would all have wonderful HR20s, a bunch of people call BS on them. Somewhere along this line someone who had a "perfect" hr20 will announce how this release broke their HR20 and they want to go back to the last version. Some polls are made that ask poorly thought out questions. A collection of theories are produced about what is causing the bugs. Wild-ass guesses start being made telling users that they need to remove their BBC, not use feature X Y or Z, or perhaps they need to sacrifice a chicken to their HR20. The name calling starts. Proclamations of how great TiVo is or How much TiVo sucks are made, then we get a new version of software and the cycle of life starts anew.​
We are in the back end of the cycle, you can tell by all the "my tivo never had this problem" type posts.


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What did they do to your SD unit?
> IIRC there hasn't been a software release for the SD units in almost a year.
> 
> I have seen the "guide" issue posts and other things. But shouldn't the TiVo software been smart enough to deal with Bad Data...  (This is a joke/jab at people saying the DVR+ shoudl be able to handle bad data)....


Our RCA unit got an update a couple of months ago to add "folders" to the program list, and ever since then we've seen weird problems that have culminated in the recent rash of spontaneous reboots and unrecorded shows.

I had heard the same that there were no updates for the SD Tivo boxes, but there was something added recently to add the folders because man was the wife annoyed when that whole UI changed on top of our HR20 headaches.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

Citivas said:


> Have you actually tried this or heard from someone who has? You seem to be implying DirecTV will simply allow it.
> 
> First, you have to wait 80 minutes to even get a person -- I have been on hold for 40 minutes and counting this time (I have given up at 80 min and counting recently) and still have no real person in sight. Then you have to go through the first couple of lame CSR's who know nothing.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstood my post (and maybe I just wasn't clear enough). My point is that we (and all other lessors) have all created a DEMAND for the HR20 which is so great that they cannot meet it. So some portion of the customer set has problems and is "demanding" some fix. When you can't keep up with DEMAND, it becomes a corporate quandary how to deal with that squeaky wheel. Even if there was a desire to bend to all the "demands", it may not realistically be possible.

And then when you look at the threads here (and I assume elsewhere) that promote what I call "gouging them for all you can get", any corporate urge to bend can get pretty tenuous. So while you may have a legitimate beef you're expecting a lot if you want to snap your fingers (OK, spend hours on the phone) and get compensation for a lifetime of satisfaction because you "claim" a problem. (I'm not saying YOUR claim is bad, but what about all those who engage in the gouging -- what's to distinquish you from them?

(And yes, I've spent my share of time on the D* phone sparring with CSRs and escalating through the levels. So much so that the last time I was accused of having a history of escalation. But that's another story and that was escalated also.)


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## briang5000 (Aug 11, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And yes... bottom line.
> 
> No one was "forced" to get an HR20...
> No one is "forced" to stay with DirecTV if they are not happy... might cost ya to brake your contract, but that is an issue between you and DirecTV.
> ...


Earl, the only way I could get my locals in HD from DirecTV was to upgrade to the HR20. As a consumer I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a similar level of quality from the HR20 as the HR250. All my other DirecTV boxes - standard Tivo, HD Tivo, and the old standard boxes have worked well. Why shouldn't I expect the heavily touted HR20 wouldn't also work as well?

Sure. It is new software and new software is likely to need some tweaking.
But... DVR isn't brand new technology. Even HD-DVR isn't brand new technology.

DirecTV should be doing a better job with this.

Their whole business model is to sell a TV signal. If they can't reliably sell that signal to me -- they are failing.

I'm being patient with my HR20 --- but it's been nearly half a year. This is getting a little crazy.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> That's the way technology forums often go. Those with problems get extremely "anti" because of all the "what're you talking about, no trouble here" posts. Those who are getting satisfactory results get defensive because of all the "POS" comments. It gets real polarized.
> 
> A lot of folks like me--people with several lockups but no severe issues--get tired of posting because no one wants to acknowledge the middle ground.
> 
> I suspect (no, I have no data to back this up) that there are a lot of people who are pretty happy, even though the unit is not 100% perfect for them. I am one of them. But once the issue gets polarized, comments like these get drowned out.


Which is weird, because I bet if you could do a real quantitative study of the problems people are actually having and what problems every person with an HR20 is having, I suspect the overwhelming majority of people would fall into this middle ground. Being in the middle does not make for great debate, unfortunately. 

Personally I have had a few very minor issues with my close to a week with my HR20. We shall see how things go. I can say that the issues and problems I had in the last two days I was using my HR10 before moving it to another room far outweigh any issue I have had with the HR20. The 10 is still in service, but finding the HDMI port failed, combined with the box spontaneously rebooting over and over and over and showing all programs as being deleted because I hooked it up to a different OTA cable of the same OTA feed in a different room, well that was a bit of a mess. Then when moved to a smaller room to have a problem with it recording properly initially. None of that stuff makes me label the HR10 a POS or want heads to roll. Anyways, it is all relative to current experiences, and as time elapses people tend to try and forget the bad. It is a human defense mechanism. Since the HR20 is very new for everyone, people have not had the time nor inclination to forget.

Personally, if I found it unusable for my purposes I would take the necessary steps to create a situation that worked for me. Be it with DirecTV or somewhere else. And thus we come back to the phrase of the title of this thread and being "forced" to use an HR20. I would never be forced to use any sort of DVR. If I was not happy with it, I would do something else. Sometimes you do have to take the initiative to change things in your life and not allow yourself to be passively forced to do something.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

Jon D said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion that many of these "The HR20 sucks" NON-constructive critisizing whiners are the same kind of people that whine in the winter because it's too cold and in the summer because it's too hot. You just can't please some people.
> And they feel compelled to ***** and forums give them an audience they would otherwise not have. Others are just instigators. They pick up on hot topics in forums and exagerate them to incite conflict for their entertainment.


I see you're already getting roasted, but what the hay. :lol: For my part, I agree with you. That's why I skim this s---- (that's 'stuff') in hopes of learning something, but just bail when my temper starts to go.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

richlife said:


> I see you're already getting roasted, but what the hay. :lol: For my part, I agree with you. That's why I skim this s---- (that's 'stuff') in hopes of learning something, but just bail when my temper starts to go.


Stare into the HR20ypnotoad eyes








Everything with the HR20 is fine, there are no problems, the black screens and lockups don't exist.​


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Stare into the HR20ypnotoad eyes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gee, did I say that? Funny, I thought I recalled posting a couple of time about minor problems and some black screen RBRs. But then I was trying to contribute or solicit info rather than *****ing, so maybe it went under the radar.:hurah: :hurah: :hurah:


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

btmoore,

You have to much time on your hands. 
Pretty funny though.


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## edmartin (Nov 15, 2006)

Wow. What a thread. I'm hesitant as a new user on these boards to chime in but I feel compelled.

I have worked in the software development industry for about 15 years. I have been the executive producer & franchise manager on a number of million-unit+ selling PC games & video games. Sorry to toot my horn but I think it gives me a credible perspective to post in this discussion.

Before anyone jumps on what I'm about to say, however, please be sure to read the whole post. I'm not about to defend or condemn anyone but I hope to toss a little perspective into the hostilities.

Raise your hand if you own an HR20. Cool.. looks like just about all of us. And congratulations, you are an early adopter - I like to use the phrase "heat seeker". We are people that love to get the newest, coolest, most cutting edge stuff. We were (are) all on the cutting edge of HD adoption. Now it's HD DVR's. I bet the vast majority of us have all kinds of really cool gadgets that nobody else has yet. We love that stuff!

But there's a dark side. Heat seekers (early adopters) by definition are the trail blazers. We're out there before everyone else, right? That's the cool part. But it's also dangerous. Sometimes, things don't work a well as we'd like. In fact, the majority of the time they don't. In a way, that's part of the fun - until the "bugs" are overwhelming the thrills. And that's where some of us are living now - unhappy-land.

Having developed PC & video games for years, I can freely tell you that the PC process is a lot "lazier" than the video console process. Guess what? You can't "patch" a PS3 or Xbox 360 game (at least not easily). But it's become easy enough to the point that it is the norm to have multiple patches for a PC game. So the dirty little secret is that while we toss around all the bravado in the world about quality across all platforms, underneath the skin, everyone realizes that "patching" provides a safety net and it unfortunately gets factored into the process. We'll defer bugs on a PC product that we would never defer on a console - because we can fix the PC later if it really becomes a big issue.

"Who the heck cares, Ed?... what's your point?" My point is that this technology - Directv - provides a very similar safety net. I'm not defending it but I am saying that we all need to realize it. So the nay-sayers are right - if this was a DVD player or TV that can't be "updated", it probably wasn't ready for prime time. But it can be updated and is being updated. So that gets factored into the mix. Like it or not D* did. And we adopted it.

And all due respect to those coming down on the "bull-s__t" side of discussion, but we really didn't have to buy the HR20. We chose to buy the new technology because we are heat seekers. And some are burned this time. But you could have gone with a standard DVR. You could have gone with the H20 receiver and waited on the DVR. Tivo has a cool little Series 3. Dish has a bird in the sky, too. If anyone did this purchase under duress with a gun pointed at your head, I'll eat my words.

Again, I'm not defending the process or the product (although I do like mine). But I think it's really important (9 pages later) that we all take a deep breath and remember that we are heat seekers. We love the bleeding edge. It's fun most of the time. It sucks when its not fun. And we have every right to complain about the issues. But let's not beat the crap out of each other. We're all on the same team - the one with the big Heat Seeker logo on the front and the HR20 logo on the back. The best tact is to work together and help the next wave of adopters. Believe it or not, THEY are the majority and they get to enjoy the hassles that us heat seekers went through & go through. Paraphrasing Yoda, "be a heat seeker or be not... there is no try".


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

briang5000 said:


> Earl, the only way I could get my locals in HD from DirecTV was to upgrade to the HR20. As a consumer I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a similar level of quality from the HR20 as the HR250. All my other DirecTV boxes - standard Tivo, HD Tivo, and the old standard boxes have worked well. Why shouldn't I expect the heavily touted HR20 wouldn't also work as well?
> 
> Sure. It is new software and new software is likely to need some tweaking.
> But... DVR isn't brand new technology. Even HD-DVR isn't brand new technology.
> ...


Actually "technically"... The H20 was also available (non-dvr).
But yes.. the HR20 is the only MPEG-4 compatible DVR for DirecTV... and actually one of the reasons why it is so "popular" as fast as it is.

What more of a "better" job do you want them to do with it, now that it is already in the state that it is.... They are working on the fixes... they are trying to get them out as fast as they can. And it is just a little over 4 months since it has been "publicly" release, 3 months since it hit the "national" scene (outside of LA, and a scattering of other places).

It is the first MPEG-4 DVR for DirecTV... 
Doesn't matter if this is "new" or not... the unit is new... it was built from a relatively "clean" slate...

Still doesn't change the fact:
It has issues... DirecTV knows it has issues... and they are trying to fix it.
As I said before... the "next" version was started on before 0x10b was even pushed to "SANTA"... one version has been in testing for a while... but that version probably isn't going to make it to public distribution, as well a lot of people said... because of it's testing results...


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Based on the history of HR20 releases, it just takes time. The longer the release is out, more opportunity there is for the serious bugs to present. On top of that as time goes by we have a larger users base so again we have a larger sample and since the defects seem to have a some what random pattern. We now have more people reporting earlier. Many of the worst bugs have been with the HR20 from the start, why should we think the next update will be much better?
> 
> This is what happens every time:
> 
> ...


:lol: :lol: :lol: Well said!! Now when we get to this phase, it would be nice for those who "love their HR20" and "never had a problem with MY HR20" to allow those who have problems to vent and complain without being told "too bad, its only TV" or (which is why I started this thread) to be told "no one forced you to get an HR20" -- just repect us and let us complain and vent for goodness sakes!!!

Its cathartic to at least know you are not alone out there -- especially when "officially" D*TV tells you there is nothing wrong -- "you are the only one experiencing these problems", etc., etc., etc.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Ed,

I understand where you are coming from but let me give you a different perspective.

I am not an early adopter.

This is D* 2nd generation HD DVR product
This is D* 4th or 5th generation DVR product
We are now in about in the 7th or 8th Generation of DVR products as a group.
HD Recording has been around via HTPCs for at least 8 years now.
None of the technology in the HR20 is anything new
even mpeg4 H.246 has been around for years, I have been using h.246 for years.

To give you an example I would expect a DVD player I bought from Sony today to work much much better than a DVD player I purchased from them say 5 years ago and I would expect not to lock up, freeze and play my movies. Much in the same way, I have the exact same expectations from a DVR product, I expect the HR20 to be a much better and more stable product than the DVR product I purchased in 2000. The problem is, this product does not just have small interfaces or user interaction issues, it locks up hard, and it can't be trusted to to be a reliable DVR. If this was a first generation technology, maybe I would feel different, and if you like calling yourself an early adopter, go ahead, but please understand that not everyone looks their situation the way you do.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

perilous said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: Well said!! Now when we get to this phase, it would be nice for those who "love their HR20" and "never had a problem with MY HR20" to allow those who have problems to vent and complain without being told "too bad, its only TV" or (which is why I started this thread) to be told "no one forced you to get an HR20" -- just repect us and let us complain and vent for goodness sakes!!!
> 
> Its cathartic to at least know you are not alone out there -- especially when "officially" D*TV tells you there is nothing wrong -- "you are the only one experiencing these problems", etc., etc., etc.


There is a different between allowing people to "vent"... and just allowing the "venting" to over take the quality and direction we want the forum to go.

I don't care if you post that you have problems. And I really don't care if we have a vent thread every once and a while (And I am actually really SHOCKED and PLEASED on actually how "rational" and corjual this thread has remained...)....

Believe it or not... *THIS* type of thread and discussion is *EXACTLY* what we want here. A discussion... Balanced... Thought out (for the most part)... discussion... Civil... no mud slinging... unless it is done in jest.. and knowling in Jest.

No one... I mean NO ONE, should be under the illusion that the HR20 is a perfect unit. And NO ONE... should be under the illusion that DirecTV is just taking a back seat and not busting their hump trying to fix it... as that simply isn't the case. There are a LOT of dynamics that go on behind the sceens... Each of DirecTV's products have their own Dynamics... so you can even compare the R15's "history" to the HR20's..

All I can tell you... the HR20 is *VERY* important to DirecTV.. and they simply are going to do what they need to do to get it where *THEY* need it to be.


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

edmartin said:


> Wow. What a thread. I'm hesitant as a new user on these boards to chime in but I feel compelled.
> 
> I have worked in the software development industry for about 15 years. I have been the executive producer & franchise manager on a number of million-unit+ selling PC games & video games. Sorry to toot my horn but I think it gives me a credible perspective to post in this discussion.
> 
> ...


Agreed 100% and therefore those that love their HR20 should stop pissing off those who don't (love their HR20's) at the moment with the inane comments I have described here -- "no one forced you...", "go somewhere else...", "its only TV...", etc. Let us who are having problems to get it off our chest and provide a little sympathy for our current plight -- fair?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> This is D* 2nd generation HD DVR product
> This is D* 4th or 5th generation DVR product
> We are now in about in the 7th or 8th Generation of DVR products as a group.
> HD Recording has been around via HTPCs for at least 8 years now.
> ...


Yes it is the 2nd HD-DVR for DirecTV... 
But this unit is not based of the previous generation. It doesn't share a copied code base. It is a "new" family.

So yes, some of the "concepts" of DVRing can carry over to the new family... but when you are starting something over from basically "scratch"....

This is still the first implementation of H.246 for DirecTV on the DVR level....
"HD" and Digital TV has been around for nearly 20+ years, in various forms.
But there are still networks that can't get it right yet..


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Believe it or not... *THIS* type of thread and discussion is *EXACTLY* what we want here. A discussion... Balanced... Thought out (for the most part)... discussion... Civil... no mud slinging... unless it is done in jest.. and knowling in Jest.


Earl, I appreciate that thought and frankly and as the OP is what I hoped may happen -- the discussion has been great, insightful and mostly civil. Kudos to you and your efforts once again!!!!


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes it is the 2nd HD-DVR for DirecTV...
> But this unit is not based of the previous generation. It doesn't share a copied code base. It is a "new" family.
> 
> So yes, some of the "concepts" of DVRing can carry over to the new family... but when you are starting something over from basically "scratch"....
> ...


Yes, but with experience there are higher expectations around on functionality and stability. Additionally, with the experience, DirectTV as the product developer should be building upon that experience, just because you decide to change out your internals doesn't mean that the product should not be better and more stable than prior generations. This is where D* stumbled, perhaps they did not understand HD DVR use cases, perhaps the did not learn the right lessons to create quality QA process, but because of this lack of learning from prior generations of HD and SD DVR products, we are now a situation where we have a product that has some major problems. Simply put it is not an unreasonable expection for a DVR purchaced today to be a much more stable product then a DVR purchaced 7 years ago.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

btmoore said:


> ..... Simply put it is not an unreasonable expection for a DVR purchaced today to be a much more stable product then a DVR purchaced 7 years ago.


Sure it is. We're talking HD and MPEG4. That's a huge technology difference compared to 8 years ago.

Edit: Let me re-phrase that. I think it should be stable of course, obviously. But there are many more variables to deal now than it was 8 years ago.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Sure it is. We're talking HD and MPEG4. That's a huge technology difference compared to 8 years ago.


Even with out MPEG4 the HR20 was and is unstable. like I said before h.246 has been around for years there are lots and lots of CODECs so there is no shortage of stable technology. I have been streaming multiple h.246 video streams from security cameras (with integrated h.246) for 3.5 years and I think the first consumer versions came out 2 years before that. I have a business where security and security video is critical and I use this technology because it works well and doesn't crash.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

edmartin said:


> Wow. What a thread. I'm hesitant as a new user on these boards to chime in but I feel compelled.
> 
> I have worked in the software development industry for about 15 years. I have been the executive producer & franchise manager on a number of million-unit+ selling PC games & video games. Sorry to toot my horn but I think it gives me a credible perspective to post in this discussion.
> 
> ...


Maybe. But I'm having trouble thinking of a fair comparison to what D* has done in other sectors. That is, release a stable product for 18 months, gradually building up adopters who are not just the real heat seekers, then pull that product (and siumltaneously break the code, however unintentially, of the existing users) and make anyone who needs a replacement under warranty or who wants to expand the same functionality they have had for 18 months into another room adopt this "beta" box. There are plenty of us who said, "no thanks, I don't need the new box, just give me the other one that can record HD" and were told no dice. Then we're told its great, get it and immediately regret it and are refused the ability to opt-out... To the point of the original poster and this alleged topic, many of us did not rush to try out this product. We simply wanted HD functionalty or were compelled to replace our existing HD functionality with this.

But that aside, those who have not experienced the major issues with regularity may think these are just your "normal" early release glitches. But those who have, and have been told it is a software problem that can't be immediately fixed, know first hand this isn't a little glitch but a critical failure. I'm sorry, but I don't agree most products get released with this level of critical failure, even with software upgrades possible. If you disagree, I would be interested to see some examples of products that had critical failures (i.e. totally failing to do its primary function) for 80% of its users, that was not hardware related.

And if someone's resume really makes them more credible, then for the record, I am a senior exec and officer of a Fortune 500 public company in the technology sector that employees over 20,000 people and has 100 million (mostly online) customers. I previously co-founded a tech start-up (now owned by Viacom) and was the chief product developer for it. Frankly I don't think any of this makes me more credible -- perhaps less so -- and there are far more brilliant and credible posters here than me who probably don't help run public companies and have never run product development, But if it helps me relate to you, whatever...

If this sounds a little biting, sorry. I read your post twice and don't think you are trying to attack anyone. But it expresses the same semtiment that finally made me go from reader to poster here -- the idea that we should all accept a level of failure with these boxes for some reason. I just don't agree. I'm a customer, not a beta tester. I am perfectly within my rights not to be content waiting indefinitely for a working product while I continue to pay for service. Expecially when the sum total of D*'s DVR platform options right now gives me zero stable options when I have previously had some for 6 years. That's the bottom line -- they have actually collectively degenerated after 6 years of stable service... Will they eventually fix it; I'm sure they will. But put me down in the camp that would have preferred they left my old product totally untouched and working and alerted me when they had this one pretty much worked out...


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## edmartin (Nov 15, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Ed,
> 
> I understand where you are coming from but let me give you a different perspective.
> 
> ...


I appreciate that, BT, but with all due respect, you are an early adopter. You could have bought or stuck with the 1st generation HD DVR product or you could have stuck with the 2nd or 3rd generation DVR product. You could have even gone with a plain HD receiver like the H20. But you got an HR20. So did I. And both of us got it in the face of more mature alternatives on the market (and gobs of commentary on boards like this one).

Again, I'm not defending the issues with the HR20. But it's disingenuous to not accept that we are in the early part of the wave - by our own choice.

As for your DVD analogy, part of it proves exactly my point (a DVD player is not update-able so the producers are going to be more anal) but part of it is misleading. If you're talking about a straight-up DVD player, that's a mature product. But if you're talking HD-DVD or Blueray, that's new. And so is the HR20. This is not the same tech as the predecessor. Just like fleets of those shiny new PS3's are over-heating and dying for that set of heat seekers, so too is this set of heat seekers finding issues with the HR20. Doesn't make it right but it does make it reality and pain by our own choice.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

to me it seens like all the hd stuff is still in it's infancy.. lets face it how many hd shows are there compaired to sd stuff.. all the content providers need to get it together, hd sets are selling like mad and there is still very little to watch on them...


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## edmartin (Nov 15, 2006)

Citivas said:


> ... If this sounds a little biting, sorry. I read your post twice and don't think you are trying to attack anyone. But it expresses the same semtiment that finally made me go from reader to poster here -- the idea that we should all accept a level of failure with these boxes for some reason. I just don't agree. I'm a customer, not a beta tester. I am perfectly within my rights not to be content waiting indefinitely for a working product while I continue to pay for service. Expecially when the sum total of D*'s DVR platform options right now gives me zero stable options when I have previously had some for 6 years. That's the bottom line -- they have actually collectively degenerated after 6 years of stable service... Will they eventually fix it; I'm sure they will. But put me down in the camp that would have preferred they left my old product totally untouched and working and alerted me when they had this one pretty much worked out...


You're right, I'm not trying to attack anyone. In fact, I'm trying to get everyone back on the same side so the energy & enthusiasm can be refocused to help fix the real problem. As far as credibility, I'm not trying to toot my horn (nor are you) but I kind of felt that if I was going to make an analogy toward the HR20 about software development in a realm where "patching" is the norm, I needed to try to set some credible basis for my perspective. That's all.

I think everyone in here is in sync with your comment and reason for going from reader to poster - we shouldn't be satisfied. But we shouldn't be beating each other up about it, either.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

edmartin said:


> I appreciate that, BT, but with all due respect, you are an early adopter. You could have bought or stuck with the 1st generation HD DVR product or you could have stuck with the 2nd or 3rd generation DVR product. You could have even gone with a plain HD receiver like the H20. But you got an HR20. So did I. And both of us got it in the face of more mature alternatives on the market (and gobs of commentary on boards like this one)..


Given all the posts here, why do you believe that? D* no longer allows people to select the 1st gen HD DVR product and they just released a software upgrade that has made it as unstable at the HR-20, when it previously was fine. And they also have just screwed up the earlier non-HD DVR's too. That said, I don't think its completely fair to say that someone who has been able to use a DVR with HD capacity for 18 months and DVR functionalty for 6 1/2 years is making a totally elective choice to be an early adopter if they don't agree to go all they way back to non DVR functionality even at the SD level.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

edmartin said:


> You're right, I'm not trying to attack anyone. In fact, I'm trying to get everyone back on the same side so the energy & enthusiasm can be refocused to help fix the real problem. As far as credibility, I'm not trying to toot my horn (nor are you) but I kind of felt that if I was going to make an analogy toward the HR20 about software development in a realm where "patching" is the norm, I needed to try to set some credible basis for my perspective. That's all.
> 
> I think everyone in here is in sync with your comment and reason for going from reader to poster - we shouldn't be satisfied. But we shouldn't be beating each other up about it, either.


I think you are confusing, typically young 20 something gamers who are tweaking and overclocking, with old married farts, who want their TVs to work so they can enjoy the football game they missed because of too much work. It is clear based on your statement about "where "patching" is the norm" you come from a different world, where I come from my expectation is "patching is the exception", when I buy something I expect it to work as advertised, If they want to improve what they sold me, great, but it is not a crazy expectation for the basic functionality to work right when the product is released. I am not saying that there can't be a mfg problem, where a run of a product needs to be pulled and replaced, but the released product should work and not have serious problems, with the idea being, we will just fix it in future patches. Maybe that works well for gamers but I just want my shows to be recorded, and stop calling me a early adopter, label yourself not me.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Citivas said:


> Given all the posts here, why do you believe that? D* no longer allows people to select the 1st gen HD DVR product and they just released a software upgrade that has made it as unstable at the HR-20, when it previously was fine. And they also have just screwed up the earlier non-HD DVR's too. ......


I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but how is D* to blame for the software release TIVO put out. That's like saying a Dell PC is crap because Windows ME BSOD allof the time. Before anyone pounds me for "taking up for D*" I'm not. It's just I"ve seen this posted several times. If I understand all of this correctly, D* has nothing to do w/ writing TIVO's code. There just the messenger.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

btmoore said:


> I think you are confusing, typically young 20 something gamers who are tweaking and overclocking, with old married farts, who want their TVs to work so they can enjoy the football game they missed because of too much work. It is clear based on your statement about "where "patching" is the norm" you come from a different world, where I come from my expectation is "patching is the exception", when I buy something I expect it to work as advertised, If they want to improve what they sold me, great, but it is not a crazy expectation for the basic functionality to work right when the product is released. I am not saying that there can't be a mfg problem, where a run of a product needs to be pulled and replaced, but the released product should work and not have serious problems, with the idea being, we will just fix it in future patches. Maybe that works well for gamers but I just want my shows to be recorded, and stop calling me a early adopter, label yourself not me.


Sadly... for what ever reason... it is now the norm, for electronic devices that are software driven... And is going to continue to be the norm.

It is the nature of the products. It is the nature of, who gets the product out to market first... in what ever shape... get's the jump. This is not new... and frankly.. .it isn't going to end here.

Pretty "every" new product we are going to see from the CES show from every vendor... is going to fall into that category. Not just Video Game, Not just entertainment systems... everything.

Things just simply are not the way they where in the past.

So you are *NOT* an early adopter.
But you are someone who purchase a unit in it's infacy... who expected more, then what you are getting..... and got more of something you don't want... (aka the problems).

Nothing can change that.... 
All that can change now is two things:

1) Your status as a DirecTV customer
2) DirecTV progress in fixing the HR20

We can get all bent out of shape on how it was relesed, what state it is in today. But it still isn't going to make the coding go any faster... it may make a difference in the testing and QA, which ultimately will "slow" down the fixes getting to us.. but hey, that is okay (seriously).

You are right... you should be able to sit and enjoy your TV.
We all should.....


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Perhaps a consideration: MPEG2 is not at all new technology--but HD broadcasts very much are. (Just read the stuff in the AVSforum thread for your location.)

Just so, MPEG4 has some very stable applications, but not all applications of MPEG4 are going to be stable yet. We are actually talking not about MPEG4, but a transcoding of an MPEG2 stream (that is not stable) into an MPEG4 stream. All very new technology.

Sure, once its in MPEG4, the decoding is probably very stable, rock solid, put into a chip, yada. But garbage MPEG2 in leads to garbage MPEG4 out.

That should, I suggest buy D* a few burps in the sound and a couple of messed up frames. That should never excuse a lockup, a black screen (for more than the previously acknowledged few frames), or missing a recording. As pointed out, all the OS, hardware device drivers, scheduling, and UI are in a device of sufficient generation to be very stable. Burps, perhaps, stable, absolutely!

But we all know this, we've all taken these positions before.  (Ok, except for the newbies, those put on vacation for a time, or those who don't read anyway.)   

It is very unfortunate that there are people who feel they are forced to take the HR20, their perception is reality and must be treated that way. You all have my hope that a happy solution is found soon. To be clear, I mean happy for you.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but how is D* to blame for the software release TIVO put out. That's like saying a Dell PC is crap because Windows ME BSOD allof the time. Before any pounds me for "taking up for D*" I'm not. It's just I"ve seen this posted several times. If I understand all of this correctly, D* has nothing to do w/ writing TIVO's code. There just the messenger.


In fairness there... they where responsible for additional "testing" of the code, and ultimately authorizing it's release.

But as stated many pages back... catch-22.
They where already catching "hell" in media blogs and forums for not releasing the version. If they sat on it for longer... testing it more, they would have caught more hell.

Same game here with the HR20.
Sure they can sit on the next software version until they fix every issue with it... but in the mean time, that catch more hell because some of the issues are not getting fixed.


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Ed,
> 
> I understand where you are coming from but let me give you a different perspective.
> 
> ...


I totlally agree with this. I have to back up record on my TIVO shows i really need to see just to make sure i get the recording.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> In fairness there... they where responsible for additional "testing" of the code, and ultimately authorizing it's release.
> 
> But as stated many pages back... catch-22.
> They where already catching "hell" in media blogs and forums for not releasing the version. If they sat on it for longer... testing it more, they would have caught more hell.
> ...


Fair enough. But you can only test within so many environments and variables.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Fair enough. But you can only test within so many environments and variables.


Total Agreement... And DirecTV knows that too..
Hence why you still have the "dreaded" staggard rollout.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but how is D* to blame for the software release TIVO put out. That's like saying a Dell PC is crap because Windows ME BSOD allof the time. Before anyone pounds me for "taking up for D*" I'm not. It's just I"ve seen this posted several times. If I understand all of this correctly, D* has nothing to do w/ writing TIVO's code. There just the messenger.


Not a fair comparison. TiVo is acting as a sub of DirecTV in this case. DirecTV has the full right to QA/QC the code and to withhold the release. It is a DirecTV controlled platform . TiVo cannot do it without DirecTV even if they wanted to. Dell doesn't control the Windows OS or even insist you use it.

D* is absolutely not just the messenger. And it would be hypocritical to suggest they are given they stubbornly held back updates of the TiVo code that all other TiVo's were getting for years. They have a history of being very assertive controllers of what code TiVo puts on their boxes for 6 years. So to suddenly absolve them of all responsibility for it, just because they technically had a sub-contractor do the actual code, is not reasonable IMHO...


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Fair enough. But you can only test within so many environments and variables.


Very true. But robust programming techniques (kinda like defensive driving) can be practiced to mitigate that. Validate all inputs, test all subroutine return codes, run code analysis tools to prevent variable mismatches, etc.

Still no excuse for bad software.

Cheers,
Tom


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## edmartin (Nov 15, 2006)

btmoore said:


> I think you are confusing, typically young 20 something gamers who are tweaking and overclocking, with old married farts, who want their TVs to work so they can enjoy the football game they missed because of too much work. It is clear based on your statement about "where "patching" is the norm" you come from a different world, where I come from my expectation is "patching is the exception", when I buy something I expect it to work as advertised, If they want to improve what they sold me, great, but it is not a crazy expectation for the basic functionality to work right when the product is released. I am not saying that there can't be a mfg problem, where a run of a product needs to be pulled and replaced, but the released product should work and not have serious problems, with the idea being, we will just fix it in future patches. Maybe that works well for gamers but I just want my shows to be recorded, and stop calling me a early adopter, label yourself not me.


I happen to be an old married fart, too. And tweaking & overclocking have nothing to do with my analogy about game companies patching games. Tweaking, hacking & overclocking are self-inflicted issues. But the reality is that corporate America is going to cut corners where there are opportunities to fix the corners after the fact. And it's not just software companies (although tech companies are the biggest offenders).

I think we're saying the same thing - though you seem to think I am excusing it. I am not. I'm just trying to pose an analogy to set some context. We bought an updatable box and it's getting updated. It sucks that D* pushed it out knowing that they could and would (and did) update it. But here we are. Shall we all continue to line up against each other or is our energy better spent pushing together for a fix? Guess what?... we're not going to change the past or where we are today. Frankly, I'd rather work for a better box tomorrow.

I'm trying to be the peacemaker & consensus guy here... not trying to offend or excuse.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Citivas said:


> Not a fair comparison. TiVo is acting as a sub of DirecTV in this case. DirecTV has the full right to QA/QC the code and to withhold the release. It is a DirecTV controlled platform . TiVo cannot do it without DirecTV even if they wanted to. Dell doesn't control the Windows OS or even insist you use it.
> 
> D* is absolutely not just the messenger. And it would be hypocritical to suggest they are given they stubbornly held back updates of the TiVo code that all other TiVo's were getting for years. They have a history of being very assertive controllers of what code TiVo puts on their boxes for 6 years. So to suddenly absolve them of all responsibility for it, just because they technically had a sub-contractor do the actual code, is not reasonable IMHO...


Dang it...I knew I shouldn't have posted that. lol...

I didn't say they should not take some of the responsibility for it. But to flat out blame D* for the current 6.XX release is just nuts. The Dell comparison is just a simple - basic analogy. Dell may not control the OS, but when 95% of the country is using MS products and ME is the only OS (for that time period), then what do you do? But that's completely off topic.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

btmoore said:


> I think you are confusing, typically young 20 something gamers who are tweaking and overclocking, with old married farts, who want their TVs to work so they can enjoy the football game they missed because of too much work. It is clear based on your statement about "where "patching" is the norm" you come from a different world, where I come from my expectation is "patching is the exception", when I buy something I expect it to work as advertised, If they want to improve what they sold me, great, but it is not a crazy expectation for the basic functionality to work right when the product is released. I am not saying that there can't be a mfg problem, where a run of a product needs to be pulled and replaced, but the released product should work and not have serious problems, with the idea being, we will just fix it in future patches. Maybe that works well for gamers but I just want my shows to be recorded, and stop calling me a early adopter, label yourself not me.


Welcome to your new reality. I am an old married fart myself pushing up against that 4-0. My life is patching software. But then again I'm a computer geek. 

But back on topic. Pretty much any consumer device now requires patching of some sort. I'll give you two examples to consider:

1) Friend of mine has a Pioneer A/V receiver. He was having trouble with 5.1 DD signals (from any source, including DVD) where the receiver would just lock up and die requiring a hard reboot (unplug). Come to find out there was a bug in the firmware and he had to *update it with a patch*, luckily it can be connected to a computer via serial. Again, he had to update an A/V receiver with a patch to fix a bug.

2) I've had to download and install patches for my universal remotes more then a couple times. They all have firmware that can be updated.

3) Friend of mine was having a problem with his car. It wasn't getting enough gas. Turns out the computer in the car needed a patch upgrade to fix the program that ran the gas mix to the engine. A *car* needed a patch.

4) Any cell phone these days requires firmware and software updates.

It's just the world we live in now my friend. For good or ill. I wish us all luck before Skynet finally takes over.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sadly... for what ever reason... it is now the norm, for electronic devices that are software driven... And is going to continue to be the norm.
> 
> It is the nature of the products. It is the nature of, who gets the product out to market first... in what ever shape... get's the jump. This is not new... and frankly.. .it isn't going to end here.
> 
> ...


Just because it is upgradeable software does not mean it needs to be buggy when it comes to market. Producing a quality product that delivers what it sold to do is what any company that is selling consumer electronics should be doing. Just because it is delivered using an embedded OS and is upgradeable over a network does not excuse sloppy buggy product production and poor QA processes. I am happy to see more products that have an upgrade path and the ability to fix bugs and upgrade with new features via downloads, it does not change the fact that products should not come to market if they are not ready. DirecTV should not release a product with serious bugs with the idea that they will just fix them later in patches.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Welcome to your new reality. I am an old married fart myself pushing up against that 4-0. My life is patching software. But then again I'm a computer geek.
> 
> But back on topic. Pretty much any consumer device now requires patching of some sort. I'll give you two examples to consider:
> 
> ...


The difference is releasing a buggy product with the idea that you will try to fix it in production vs releasing a quality product and fixing defects that were discovered at a later time.

Regardless of how the product was developed, it does not excuse poor quality, poor product management, and QA process that allow serious defects to reach the market. Don't confuse the technical ability to patch and remotely fix code with the need to release quality products.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Fair enough. But you can only test within so many environments and variables.


Through developing solid test case, qa processes, instrumentation, etc. D* needs to develop a capability maturity model compatible with the products they wish to bring to market.


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## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

edmartin said:


> Guess what?... we're not going to change the past or where we are today. Frankly, I'd rather work for a better box tomorrow.
> 
> I'm trying to be the peacemaker & consensus guy here... not trying to offend or excuse.


The point is not that products are coming to market that can be upgraded, there are many example of such product that are upgradeable over the network that do not have as many serious defects as the HR20. I have many router, switches, media players, network security cameras, and even my old Sat-t60 all software primarily based on different versions of linux and all are upgradeable over a network, none of them have had the rash of problem that the HR20 has.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Fair enough. But you can only test within so many environments and variables.


True. But the OTA audio dropout issue with 6.3 and 6.3a was so obvious and widespread that it is quite clear that a _very_ small and woefully inadequate number of environments/variables were tested.

No reasonable customer expects perfection, but that upgrade was below what I expect from both Tivo and DirecTV.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

btmoore said:


> I think you are confusing, typically young 20 something gamers who are tweaking and overclocking, with old married farts, who want their TVs to work so they can enjoy the football game they missed because of too much work. It is clear based on your statement about "where "patching" is the norm" you come from a different world, where I come from my expectation is "patching is the exception", when I buy something I expect it to work as advertised, If they want to improve what they sold me, great, but it is not a crazy expectation for the basic functionality to work right when the product is released. I am not saying that there can't be a mfg problem, where a run of a product needs to be pulled and replaced, but the released product should work and not have serious problems, with the idea being, we will just fix it in future patches. Maybe that works well for gamers but I just want my shows to be recorded, and stop calling me a early adopter, label yourself not me.


BT -

I agree with your sentiments. My generation, and younger generations, are the gamers out there pushing our PCs and doing all the things you mentioned. We are the generation to whom patching is the norm.

I agree with you that it shouldn't be that way, but you have to realize who it is doing the programming now. As with every profession, the old married farts eventually get replaced by the newest hot young up and coming kid who is going to "take our product to the next level". Sadly, those up and coming kids are the kids from my generation, to whom patching is the norm.

So, good or bad, the "patching is the norm" mentality is just going to get worse, I think.


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## etchasketch (Dec 21, 2006)

<uncloak>

IRT: our patch infested geek driven model, uhm, I want to get off the ride and return to sanity.

IRT: early adopters / heat-seekers (I like that) per edmartin, count me out, you folks debug.

IRT: hardware _v_ software , architect-engineers always complain soft-side goes too far.

Maybe I'm part of the problem. Though in a different environment / mode, I tend to push out a product. In one case the other principals in partnership try to tweak / polish to perfect brightness. I espouse the 80-20 rule: go live when 80% is right since you will never finish the final 20% (twill never be 100%, so you are free to pick 90-10, or 95-05, or whatever nummer works for you ... the final is never finished, never 100).

As I posted earlier, the power company doesn't know about outages until people call to complain their lights are out. Dtv probably didn't know how bad the product was, or how buggy were the subsequent patches until enough boxes were in place. So, early adopters / heat-seekers are the feedback nodes to hub. Just the way it works I'm afraid. Welcome to life in the new millennium.

Also, a salient point was made and perhaps missed. By richlife - post 200

[...] we (and all other lessors) have all created a DEMAND for the HR20 which is so great that they cannot meet it. So some portion of the customer set has problems and is "demanding" some fix. When you can't keep up with DEMAND, it becomes a corporate quandary how to deal with that squeaky wheel. Even if there was a desire to bend to all the "demands", it may not realistically be possible.

And then when you look at the threads here (and I assume elsewhere) that promote what I call "gouging them for all you can get", any corporate urge to bend can get pretty tenuous. So while you may have a legitimate beef you're expecting a lot if you want to snap your fingers (OK, spend hours on the phone) and get compensation for a lifetime of satisfaction because you "claim" a problem. (I'm not saying YOUR claim is bad, but what about all those who engage in the gouging -- what's to distinquish you from them? [...]

To read the gouger topic, go to:
*What the Deals are, and what you are being told by CSR?*
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62089&page=40

80-20 demand: Some users fed the demand cycle wanting the hot new product. Some fed the cycle when a bug was encountered, so exchanged boxes. Some wanted 2-3 of the new DVRs, so twisted the CSR network to get their way.

Now, those with a genuine beef, can't get a replacement box (whether it would be better than what they have is also in doubt). Others can't get box #1 since the net is feeding on itself, creating feedback loops of hardware.

This is in many cases a product of human nature and greed, not just availability

etchasketch

ps - should Dtv settle my beef (tangent) a H20 and ole world VCR will suit until the dust settles

pps - Earl: IRT thread deletion, the one pasted above was / is irresponsible, should be vaporized

<re-cloak>


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## DStern (Nov 11, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> So, good or bad, the "patching is the norm" mentality is just going to get worse, I think.


Why? Because we sit and take it - That's why I tried and tried to return my HR20 and get out of my contract when it obviously was not ready for release. Back in October they would not budge.

Customer retention these days now sings a much different song when you call about this "free beta" and at this point I consider myself a "paid beta tester." (Well paid really...) Thus I am much happier about dealing with this debacle.

When people say "What good would it do for DirecTv to admit their are problems? Not like they that would get them fixed any faster?" they are missing the point.

DirecTV has lost a bunch of "Good Will" on the HR20 - A simple blanket program where they say "Oops" give out some nominal credit, or some stupid "hang in there while we figure this out tchotchke " would go a long way to get that back.

Don't say that big companies don't do stuff like that - Microsoft just realized that their warranty stunk on the XBox 360 (early units died easy) - Extended the warranty from 30 days to a year AND automatically refunded all repairs that people had already paid for. Bought them a lot of good will....


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

DStern said:


> Why? Because we sit and take it


I didn't. but I was a little bit lucky. sort of. I hit bugs VERY early and threw in the towel in 2.5 days time!

I wonder if that's a new record? 



> Customer retention these days now sings a much different song when you call about this "free beta" and at this point I consider myself a "paid beta tester." (Well paid really...) Thus I am much happier about dealing with this debacle.


the ONLY way I'd accept such a buggy beast is if I had 100% free service - I mean totally 100% free - for at least a year. I'm serious. that's my price for dealing with green tomatoes


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Through developing solid test case, qa processes, instrumentation, etc. D* needs to develop a capability maturity model compatible with the products they wish to bring to market.


as you know, I'm sure, when the bug count is this large and stays this bad for so long, all the testing in the world won't fix things. not really.

either the development team is in well over their head (I do suspect that, seriously) or they had attrition (or hired contractors!) and the expertise left mid-project (?). but something's not adding up, in my book. doing video recording is NOT rocket science. its not trivial but I've seen far more complicated hw/sw projects ship with much less bugs in much less time.

methinks DTV tried to turn out a dvr 'on the cheap'. pennywise and pound foolish? seems like that.

and I bet the tivo (company) engineers are laughing with every hr20 thread they read...

(sigh.)


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

linuxworks said:


> and I bet the tivo (company) engineers are laughing with every hr20 thread they read...
> 
> (sigh.)


I certainly hope so. After all the suits are taken out of the mix, at least _those_ appear to have done their jobs at least semi-competently....unlike some others I 'm currently thinking of.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

mnassour said:


> I certainly hope so. After all the suits are taken out of the mix, at least _those_ appear to have done their jobs at least semi-competently....unlike some others I 'm currently thinking of.


I once met a person who was either in charge of tivo QA (software test) or was at least very senior in the company. she was so proud of her company's software and we talked about how almost all GUI and even IR remote usability issues were discussed again and again, to try to REALLY refine this thing and make it consistent (almost predictable based on a visionary gui theme) and nearly bug-free. this was back when the dual tuner directivo was just released.

(I even tried to join the tivo company, since I live in the same basic area as their main alviso facility in cali. but I think EVERYONE wanted to work there at the time and so it was hard as can be to join them. I think they were successful mostly due to that - they could HAND PICK from a huge silicon valley pool of talent - who would work there. sort of like google (also not too far away - another local company).

contrast that to the no-name (and likely off-shored) company that is creating the hr20. is anyone beating a line down their door to join THAT company's engineering staff? who ARE they, even? does anyone KNOW where the eng. team is located, which company it is, etc?

everyone knows tivo and where to FIND tivo (the place that does the work). and still, its considered a super place to work (its not quite google but its still a 'ooh!' place for many of us software guys).

anyway, years from now this fiasco will be written down in college business101 books on how NOT to run a development and consumer electronics business. just like cisco and google are examples of how TO run a business, directv and its 'contractor' are examples of how NOT to run a business.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

linuxworks said:


> contrast that to the no-name (and likely off-shored) company that is creating the hr20. is anyone beating a line down their door to join THAT company's engineering staff? who ARE they, even? does anyone KNOW where the eng. team is located, which company it is, etc?


They've actually been around longer than Tivo has, and built a more diversified inventory of products over their 35 years.

Despite the information on the manufacturer of the HR20 being easily available on the DirecTV website in the original press release announcing its planned release (as well in several threads here), and most folks seem to know how to use the Web to search, I still thought I'd make life easy for those who choose not to make the effort to find this out:

http://www.paceelectronics.com/About+PACE/History/default.aspx

Read away for your answers.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

thanks for the ptr to pace. fair enough - I didn't spent ANY time on directv's website trying to discover who designed and built the hr20.

so, fwiw, I went to the pace website looking for references to where their ENGINEERING team is. I didn't find that. did I miss it?

I found:

http://www.paceelectronics.com/About+PACE/Facilities+and+Locations/default.aspx

quote:

*
PACE has an electronics manufacturing plant in China, multiple warehouse facilities in the U.S., and a network of representatives throughout North America to meet customer needs. PACE customers span the globe. Our expertise with remote project management and international commerce allows us to provide electronics sourcing and contract manufacturing services for any company in the world, while offering the same convenience, quality, and cost advantages that we provide to our U.S. customers.
United States

Headquarters in New York State - PACE Electronics is headquartered in Sodus NY, just east of Rochester NY, which is home to Eastman Kodak Company, Xerox Corporation, and a highly skilled and educated workforce. PACE headquarters provides global administrative, management, procurement, customer services, and sales and marketing functions. PACE also owns warehouse space in Sodus, where buffer inventory is maintained to provide JIT delivery for PACE customers.

Mississippi - Our warehouse facility in Meridian provides ample storage space for large buffer inventories, letting us provide JIT delivery to customer locations throughout the Southeast.

California - The PACE office in Mission Viejo CA is our West Coast center for sales and marketing.
*

(end quote)

I find this interesting:

"Our expertise with remote project management .."

that's another word for OFF-SHORING (aka, OUTSOURCING).

or, did I get that part wrong?

where on their page does it say where the DESIGN and CODE is done?

"PACE headquarters provides global administrative, management, procurement, customer services, and sales and marketing functions"

so the NY office sounds like its a true corp HQ but no mention of actual DESIGN being done there. if they did engineering there, they'd probably be PROUD of it and mention it.

what else:

"California - The PACE office in Mission Viejo CA is our West Coast center for sales and marketing."

sales and marketing in calif?? such a waste. I find this part funny, actually.

the rest goes on to talk about china. as I suspected... ;(

finally, I go to the mgmt page:

http://www.paceelectronics.com/About+PACE/Management/default.aspx

and nowhere do I see a VP of engineering! that is red-flag #1. if this is a DESIGN company, there should be a VP of eng with a proven track record that is not afraid to show his face and name.

all I see is 'we are a parts and thru-hole + on-sertion wave-solder company based in china'

ok, so now I have my answers. and my opinion hasn't changed one bit.


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## mluntz (Jul 13, 2006)

All I know is that right now I am scared to death to get an HR20. Eventually when everything goes mpeg4 and I have no choice, the HR20 will be stable and working properly.

I chose to wait, and I am glad I did. Hopefully by then, D* will be swapping them out for free, and life will be good. If not, what other choice do we have, except to find another provider and a new set of issues!


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## walker (Dec 15, 2006)

sorry to possibly fan the flames here, but i have to raise my hand and say that i would consider my hr20 a complete failure up to this point from a consumer standpoint. i seem to be in the minority in this thread, but in despite of my opinion of the hr20 so far, my "outrage" at dtv about these issues appears to fall in the low end of the spectrum compared to others' here. i'm also finding myself siding with different "sides" of this argument on different issues.

i am NOT a programmer and don't claim to be, BUT i do claim to be a relatively well-seasoned consumer of technology and a lot of times this includes technology that is basically in its infancy. in my opinion, i was in no way forced to get an hr20. i wanted one and even paid $99 voluntarily to receive it from dtv. to me, this was a decision that i made at a time when i had no problems with my current receivers, and that significantly weakens my position as a "victim" of dtv and also makes me understand that i have some responsibility in this situation for this receiver being in my home instead of the working one it replaced. in addition, as someone who has experience with new technology as a consumer, i should be held to an even higher standard since i know that i'm taking a risk with any new technology, no matter the company's guarantees or pr. having said this, i also believe that dtv bears responsibility like any other company that markets a new product, but hits the public market and doesn't fulfill the company's promises that were the incentive for consumers to buy this product. 

i think dtv should be offering generous credits for any consumer who has been inconvenienced by the hr20 and the csr's should at least be informed enough to acknowledge there are known issues that are being addressed when a customer calls with one of the obviously widespread glitches. dtv should not(and usually cannot legally) be allowed to be "enriched unjustly" by the revenue from services that were never actually rendered, i.e. not keep any fees paid for things that don't work. i have always had good experiences with dtv cust serv and hope they do the right thing in this situation.

i realize some of you were beta testers who may fall into a different category, but for the basic consumer like myself, i think some of you really need to admit a little responsibility for having the hr20. come on guys. if you had a fully functional receiver and CHOSE to replace it with an hr20 before it had been in public use for a generous amount of time, then you have NO leg to stand on with some of these accusations against dtv. i don't like it, but its the truth and the chances you take with new technology. again, this doesn't remove dtv's responsibility to have their product function as promised or their responsibility to refund any fees charged for services never received, but should be no different or higher standard than any other company is held to.

i think some people don't really want to admit that they were the ones who made the choice to take the chance on a new product and that decision ended up being a bad one. i'll freely admit it, but it doesn't mean i can't also be frustrated at the same time. whether it is right or wrong, you are ALWAYS taking a risk when you decide to use newly released technology. if you aren't willing to accept that risk within reason, then you are NOT a person who needs to be on the "cutting edge" of technology. you need to wait for all of the bugs to be worked out of any product before you take the plunge or you are going to have a very frustrating future with technology.

my 2 cents.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

how timely: see the slashdot on offshoring for more info on how 'successful' this practice really is, in the long-run.

I found this one insightful:

http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/11/1826225

quote:
*
Now on to my experience. I was part of a team doing embedded development for a consumer electronics platform. We were under tremendous time pressure to get the product to market, so management decided to offshore the development of drivers which I had been working on. When I handed over my drivers to the offshore team:

* The driver was responding to interrupts, and used an interrupt driven model.
* The framework for using DMA was setup.
* The framework to work with the kernel's block specific device driver interface was setup.
* I estimated that it would have taken me another 4 to 6 weeks to complete the driver. The only things I had left to do were to write the routines which actually transferred the data to and from the device.

Now, 6 months and several deadlines go by, and we haven't heard anything regarding the drivers. Finally, we get our code back:

* The interrupt code has been removed. The driver now works on a polling basis. Keep in mind how acceptable this would be in a real time system.
* The DMA code has likewise been removed.
* The driver doesn't interface at all with the kernel's specific device driver interface - instead, it uses a hack by which it talks to the block layer, bypassing the development track of every other said kind of device.
* Oh, did I mention that the driver didn't work?

So, not only are we now behind schedule, we ended up shipping a broken driver to the customer. Several of our customers missed the Christmas selling season because our code wasn't delivered in a timely manner; worse, it's now 6 months late and doesn't work.

We had to spend several months of engineering time to debug/redo the driver to get it to a working state. Here's what offshoring cost my company:

* We lost goodwill with almost all of our customers.
* The licensing revenue for these customers was delayed by two quarters. We're lucky they paid us at all...
* We lost the royalty revenues for the Christmas selling season for all our customers whose products were delayed.

In the end, offshoring was a net loss for everyone involved: 
*

(deep sigh!)

I wonder if this guy was...

oh nevermind.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

walker said:


> i think dtv should be offering generous credits for any consumer who has been inconvenienced by the hr20 and the csr's should at least be informed enough to acknowledge there are known issues that are being addressed when a customer calls with one of the obviously widespread glitches.


when I ordered my HD service from DTV, I was told in very clear english that the hr20 was "better than tivo". it wasn't until the end of our sales talk (on the phone, ordering service) that the CSR (actually retention) told me it was a dvr but NOT a tivo. I asked how it compared and her reply was 'oh, its way better than the tivo software'.

I wish I had recorded that. talk about outright lies. sheesh!

anyone here want ot step up and say 'its better than tivo'? anyone? bueller? bueller??


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

linuxworks said:


> anyone here want ot step up and say 'its better than tivo'? anyone? bueller? bueller??


Yes... I will... compared to how I used my HR10...

I could not get CBS-Chicago via my HR10 (VHF-3 reception)
I didn't use Suggestions... nor WishLists.
I hardly ever used DLB's on the HR10

I have had my HR10 crash (And one of those cases it missed an episode of 24 because of it)... I had to go through three of them, to get one I was "content" on keeping (and just gave up on the HDMI issue).

So yes... for how I used the two products... I like my HR20's better then the HR10... And I dropped the $1k on the HR10... #5 on the pre-order list.

And honestly... regardless of what I "now" do on the forums, and the relationship I have with DirecTV... I still would have gotten the HR20 on day one... as I am gadget geek for some of this stuff. (Just like I got an R15 on day one... and that was before any of "this" )

And honestly... I probably would still have the exact same answer.

Doesn't make the HR10 a bad product. Just means that for at least one "geek" out there... the HR20 does the job, for me... better then my HR10 did.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

walker said:


> come on guys. if you had a fully functional receiver and CHOSE to replace it with an hr20 before it had been in public use for a generous amount of time, then you have NO leg to stand on with some of these accusations against dtv. i don't like it, but its the truth and the chances you take with new technology.


No sir...not at all.

1. If I choose to replace my existing stereo receiver with a new stereo receiver, I expect the new one to work. There's *no* difference between that and DirecTV's latest effort.

2. If DirecTV chooses to ship a product that's not 99% functional, that is *not the fault of the end purchaser regardless of his/her reason behind the purchase*. This is one more example of the mindset that since a company has the *ability* to fix issues that may crop up with a product via a software download, it has the *right* to ship buggy hardware saying "well fix it later, just get it in the chain".

This is an *abominable* attitude that hardware makers are beginning to adopt with all kinds of consumer electronics. If we let them get away with this, we'll soon be buying hardware that doesn't work at *all*, having to take it home and waiting for a software download to enable it in its entirety.

3. This is not new technology. MPEG4 has been around. DVRs have been around. Even Echostar can create a respectably functional box at this point. DirecTV has so far failed with a product that others have previously produced. There is nothing new about this. And for those of you who question my characterization of the HR20 as a "failed" product, I would submit to you that had that not been the case....this thread and many others here would not exist.

Just $0.02 from here as well......... :biggrin:


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## jclark (Oct 4, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I hardly ever used DLB's on the HR10...
> 
> as I am gadget geek for some of this stuff.


You hardly every used DLB's and you consider yourself a gadget geek? I am very disappointed.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jclark said:


> You hardly every used DLB's and you consider yourself a gadget geek? I am very disappointed.


I said on the HR10... nearly all of my content on the HR10 was pre-recorded.
No need to DLB there.

On the SD-TiVos... yep, I used DLB... but hardly enough to worry about it not being there.


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## walker (Dec 15, 2006)

mnassour said:


> No sir...not at all.
> 
> 1. If I choose to replace my existing stereo receiver with a new stereo receiver, I expect the new one to work. There's *no* difference between that and DirecTV's latest effort.
> 
> ...


I agree completely with your comments, but you've also got to look at things as they actually are in reality and not how they "should" be if you want to protect yourself and your money. I'm not saying its ok, but I'm also not going to deny the reality of the industry at the risk of my investment or sanity. The same responsibility exists for dtv to deliver their advertised product to you, so I definitely think it is a necessity that they refund any unfullfilled fees or issue any exchanges if those were promissed. Whether it is right or wrong, when you make a new tech purchase of this type today, you just have to assume that there is some risk of inconvenience or malfunction involved if you don't want to go completely insane. If you deny the reality of the situation, you are only causing yourself more grief now and in the future, imo.


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## richadam (Oct 28, 2006)

This is a really geek infested thread, so I thought I would jump in. That information about PACE being the software vendor, and the description of their company, confirms the structure for software development that I thought I smelled from the start. A globally distributed effort with way too many layers of management and disparate organizations who have their finger in the pie.

I am currently working on a project that is a real time video game that is pushing the envelope of the hardware. It is with a very large global company that has development centers dispersed across the globe. Various aspects of the system are done in different offices across the globe. Under this structure, the publisher is routinely late (very late) on their deliverables, constantly shifting their specs, and are generally unaware of the gestalt of the system. This is a very diffuclut environment to develop within and deliver on spec and on deadline. Within this structure there must be one very strong person who knows how to pound the table to keep each aspect of the system pointed toward the same finish line. There must also be a strong system of communication to track progress, and re-steer the parties who inevitably go off course. The state of the HR20 indicates that one or both of these are missing at the moment.

I know that the world is flat, and off shore development is seen as the future, but products that "just work" for the consumer, like Apples work , or TIVO's, are developed by unified teams who usually co-reside physically. Going off shore and getting it done for less might work for a simple self-contained widget like product. But the HR20 is a complex system and it is deployed in a monstrously diverse universe. The development structure for this product is a recipe for disaster, and it seems that disaster has once again been served up with 0x115.

Ed, 

I respectfully disagree with your "early adopter/upgradeable software" apologist argument. As a game producer and a former programmer, I believe that the consumer must demand that products work after the money has changed hands. Period. Anything less than that will only encourage the management of companies to push the envelope of consumer abuse even further than it has already. 

The fact that releases come out and are demonstrated to be fatally flawed within a single day by scores of users is bold face evidence that the development/test process is fundamentally broken. I am 100% certain that there are scores of D* employees who passionately care and are working feverishly and tirelessly to fix the software. I applaud them for this, but unfortunately their efforts are not showing up on the scoreboard.

I am, like linuxworks, voting with my wallet and firing D*. It is ultimately the only real vote that I have.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

richadam said:


> This is a really geek infested thread, so I thought I would jump in. That information about PACE being the software vendor, and the description of their company, confirms the structure for software development that I thought I smelled from the start. A globally distributed effort with way too many layers of management and disparate organizations who have their finger in the pie.


Sorry... must have missed that in this thread...
But this is totally incorrect.

PACE is the builder of the hardware.
DirecTV writes and maintains the software. PACE has little (if anything) to do with the software aspects of the HR20
-----------------

As to your later comment about the "testing".
The test the software... they test it on themselves... their employees are the testers... they have automated test routines.
But yet... regardless, they still get favorable test results.

They have "adapted", and gone to this release candidate model... which is progress.
Because you know what... Nearly 500 people admitted to downloading it... and I think (based on the number of the subscriptions that that notification thread) there are over a 1,000 that downloaded it. So that is 1,000 people, if they follow the "rules"... shoudl be providing feedback to help the other 10's of thousand HR20 users out there.

DirecTV is not in a position with this product... that they can go to a "Traditional" formal beta testing program.
Just can't... as anyone who has been there... once you are there... it is a long process... and right now the HR20 can not afford it.

There is no arguing that yes, maybe... it should have been done before... but doesn't change anything... as it wasn't, and this is the state of things.

And before you go there... Yes 0x115 was pushed to a subset of customers... So not all customers "forced" it... but not all people are having the problems too.

Again... you can't change what is... There is going to be no recall.

So either get out of the kitchen... Pick up a spoon and help cook... or eat was is served.
Complain about the cooking, ask for it to be corrected... or refuse to pay the bill if you are that dis-satisfied


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sorry... must have missed that in this thread...
> But this is totally incorrect.
> 
> PACE is the builder of the hardware.
> DirecTV writes and maintains the software. PACE has little (if anything) to do with the software aspects of the HR20


thanks for clearing that up.

going on what was presented (as factual), I just didn't see any 'vp of eng' on the website and that looked real odd to me. it looked just like an assembly and test and fab plant but NOT a software entity, not even a little bit. (is that correct in what I'm assessing?)

so I'm still back to here I was before - not knowing -who- the company is (or group) that does this. was there a small company doing this and then D* bought them out or did D* just create the dvr project 100% internally, right from the start? (do you know?)

this is an example of the classic "make vs. buy", in design. ego says "lets do it ourselves". but more often than not, the smart money is to buy and not DIY.

do the design and engineering here in the US and if you -must- offshore some labor, do it at the manuf end of things. I've heard good success stories when you offshore the actual build of a product; but I've rarely heard success stories when the design and engineering are all outsourced.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

linuxworks said:


> thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> going on what was presented (as factual), I just didn't see any 'vp of eng' on the website and that looked real odd to me. it looked just like an assembly and test and fab plant but NOT a software entity, not even a little bit. (is that correct in what I'm assessing?)
> 
> ...


All I know is that there where several "parties" involved... but DirecTV is the writers of the software... They didn't buy any company.

Peices of it are very similar, and may even come from the Ucentric product.

But other then that.... all I know for certain...
The developers of the HR20... sit in chairs, that sit on the ground, that is in LA, in their nice big building out there.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

interesting, earl.

entirely done in-house. from a company (directv) that has no visible experience running a software project, before (have they?)

takes some major stugotz (grin) to think you can pull this off. I hope they do, eventually; I really do. but it seems they did bite off more than they could chew, in a box like this.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> All I know is that there where several "parties" involved... but DirecTV is the writers of the software... They didn't buy any company.
> 
> Peices of it are very similar, and may even come from the Ucentric product.
> 
> ...


I also was told all the development was in-house. There are software samples from the hardware manufacturers, basically device driver examples, but beyond that and a few open source bits, the real meat is all D*.

cheers,
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

linuxworks said:


> interesting, earl.
> 
> entirely done in-house. from a company (directv) that has no visible experience running a software project, before (have they?)
> 
> takes some major stugotz (grin) to think you can pull this off. I hope they do, eventually; I really do. but it seems they did bite off more than they could chew, in a box like this.


I just got into an argument about that with one of the companies we are looking to purchase a Point of Sale System from.

They basically said: "You don't know anything about Software Development".
The company I work for is a Jewlery Company... And we.. .more so me and my boss... where questioning part of their design... and that was their answer. We shook our heads... and said... Okay... Have a nice day... and the meeting was over about 5 minutes later.

Point of that little story... Just because they don't have a software package for "sale", or "download", or don't have available for consumers.... doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.

They have some VERY bright people there... but this is not a trivial task they are working on. Project management at it's core... is all relatively the same in similar sectors.... There are changes that have to be made dependent on the "product", and things that need to evolve.

But if they can mange to get multi-billion dollar SAT's into orbit... what... 12 times now?

As we talked about before in this thread.... The HR20 is NOT the same as what you and I work on for our companies... not from a coding aspect, not from a project management aspect, not from a consumer aspect... Just simply isn't.

There are factors that are applied to the project, that are completely... outside the technical side of it.

Could DirecTV had the HR20 in a public beta for 6-9 months (post August, when it was ready to go)... sure... but what would that have cost them?
Not in terms of cost for the Beta program... but in costs of customers, continuing the MPEG-4 rollout, ect...

Bottom line... doesn't matter.
The HR20 was release, it is still be "obtained"... they are working on the software, and they are getting the updates out.

The question... as it has always been.
At what point, have you had enough... and are willing to go a different way.


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## richadam (Oct 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sorry... must have missed that in this thread...
> But this is totally incorrect.
> 
> PACE is the builder of the hardware.
> ...


I stand corrected.

Personally, I have no problem with being a tester of an experimental release (0x115). I signed up to do it actively. Unfortunately this is not the case with the current status of 0x10b which is in a similar state of disrepair and has been pushed to all units. But it seems to me that they are trying to shortcut the methodology of proper software development and release. By doing this they are bringing themselves a world of pain. I would make the argument that they would be better off in the long run by adhering to a real QA cycle. They are not doing anybody any favors by releasing updates that offer no improvements in reliability to the core DVR functionality.

It strikes me as more of a marketing/retention strategy to keep releasing little Reeses Pieces updates in the vain hope that some magic bullet fix is going to solve the issues before they have disaffected their entire HR20 userbase.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

richadam said:


> But it seems to me that they are trying to shortcut the methodology of proper software development and release. By doing this they are bringing themselves a world of pain. I would make the argument that they would be better off in the long run by adhering to a real QA cycle. They are not doing anybody any favors by releasing updates that offer no improvements in reliability to the core DVR functionality.


But here is the deal... 
That genie is out of the bottle... and the same rules don't apply.

You have a product out there, that frankly... is broken... Not for everyone.. but regardless... it has issues.

At this state... you can't sit and do a two month beta test of next version.
You just can't. You have to do your best to get it fixed... and fixed now.

Hence why, they have adopted a stance... no additional functionality... until it is fixed. And seriously... that is what it is... Don't expect any more "major" features added to the box, until it is stabalized.

Internally... they do follow a "standard" cycle. Code/ Unit-Test / Peer-Test / Q-A / Alpha Release / Beta Release / Release Candidate...

And seriously... that is what they follow. Problem is... right now, they don't have the "time" to run the Alpha Release and the Internal Beta Release... for weeks or months...

They have automated systems that test the systems... And they have been evolving that process there, to come closer and closer to what "we" as users use the system for.

Right now... as of this moment.. they have 1 goal... get the HR20 stable, and functionaly with what it has. Seriously, that is their primary goal


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

One thing that I has stuck with me and seems to always need repeating is the fact that many of us who have found our way to this site are considered a bit "tech savvy" and in most cases don't apply to the millions of other subscribers of DirecTV. The fact that they have started to allow us to be a part of their RC's is, to me, HUGE! Something like this is unheard of. I always sit here and try and read as much as possible and try to re-create problems so I know first hand - and think about those who "hate" the HR20 and want to "leave D*". My question is - Why? They (and Earl) are giving us, the consumer - the people whom are going to be using this product the most - the ability to make it better. I'm not saying everyone's complaints are wrong or idiotic - not at all!! It's everyone's frustrations that will make this project better, make the HR20 better than anything that has been put out on the market before.

A few posts up, Earl said he paid $1k for the HR10 (almost as much if not more troublesome than the HR20) - I was first in line at BB for the HR20 for $399 and now I feel I practically stole it for that price! From other posts, many of you got it for free and possibly, D* basically paid you for the thing. I was just glad to get one.

Of all the posts here out of frustration, I don't believe I've ever ONCE seen that DirecTV has abandoned anyone. They've always tried to remedy the situation one way or another. I know it's hard, but try and give them _some_ credit, aside from the monthly check.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Hence why, they have adopted a stance... no additional functionality... until it is fixed. And seriously... that is what it is... Don't expect any more "major" features added to the box, until it is stabalized.


One thought - maybe one of the reasons it's not stable is that these features aren't enabled. Maybe the box, which was built with all these features is wondering where half of them are and are "hanging" on the "process" to start them up because there isn't any software/code to start them. Kinda like when we were figuring out the Media Player and having to manually go to the registry and fire a few services up...

Just an odd thought from an odd person.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Coffey77 said:


> One thing that I has stuck with me and seems to always need repeating is the fact that many of us who have found our way to this site are considered a bit "tech savvy" and in most cases don't apply to the millions of other subscribers of DirecTV. The fact that they have started to allow us to be a part of their RC's is, to me, HUGE! Something like this is unheard of. I always sit here and try and read as much as possible and try to re-create problems so I know first hand - and think about those who "hate" the HR20 and want to "leave D*". My question is - Why? They (and Earl) are giving us, the consumer - the people whom are going to be using this product the most - the ability to make it better. I'm not saying everyone's complaints are wrong or idiotic - not at all!! It's everyone's frustrations that will make this project better, make the HR20 better than anything that has been put out on the market before.


Not to be negative....but maybe they feel that they're running out of options and don't have to many choices left. I don't necessarily think that's the case, but many very well could.

It is interesting that they let those of us who want the early releases are made available to us.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Not to be negative....but maybe they feel that they're running out of options and don't have to many choices left. I don't necessarily think that's the case, but many very well could.


A good point. A bit of an expansion on that perhaps would be that they may have been overwhelemed with trouble and needed more testers to find a place to start. TPlus, lets say they had 10 testers in the shop there and have now multiplied it by 100x, for free for that matter, actually, we're paying them.... They could also have been "limited" on their test equipment. Imagine the cost if they had to buy each of our televisions to test the HDMI trouble which is probably what the majority of HD TV owners want to/are using. This HD stuff is expensive. They'd be broke and wouldn't be able to get our VOD ready by March!


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## fikuserectus (Aug 19, 2006)

WOW!! I have held off on the HR20 because I heard there were issues. After reading all the complaints I'm so happy I didn't make the commitment and plop down $300.

If Direct TV wants to do the right thing here why not give people $300 in credits and stop selling a unit that has so many problems? Sounds like they are pissing off so many people. What about all those customers who are in the dark and don't know how to stop by DBLTalk and check out all the news about HR0. How are they getting helped? How many units have they gone through? What a mess. Ruppert sure did mess things up. They should have stuck with Tivo.

Well in a year or so they could always go back to Tivo.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

fikuserectus said:


> If Direct TV wants to do the right thing here why not give people $300 in credits


In many cases they do. They'll give you credits toward programming and HD packages and in the end you'll actually be getting more credit than the $300. If you don't count the monthly bill that is.


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And yes... bottom line.
> 
> No one was "forced" to get an HR20...
> 
> ...


Yes, I was forced to get a HR20 by D*TV because that is the only option they gave me when I called to upgrade to HD. If they would have had other options then yes I would have had a choice but in this situation if I wanted:

1) HD
2) Stay D*TV who, by providing me my first two DVR's with TIVO had made me a very happy guy.

By providing a single solution to it's clients for upgrading to HD D*TV in turn forced me to get this unit.

To report something: Today the system did black screen and lock up fully with out anyone in the house, so nothing we did crashed the unit. The system then failed to record Earl, The Office and Thirty Rock. All the non-DLB fans can appreciate my disappointment in missing my time shifted programs.

This is my 2nd forced RBR in 24 hrs

Now since I have to explain this to my wife, then ya every now and then since "D*TV reads these post" I hope it is OK if we vent from time to time. Even more so because negative posts at D*TV seem to disappear in less than 24 hours. At least here they have a chance to make it to public eyes before a certain heavy handed pro D*TV mod (NOT EARL) moves them to never never land.

System info:

Hitachi 65F59 
Software Version # Main V0001.3000
AR HDMI 12' Model AP086
HR20-700 0x115


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And yes... bottom line.
> 
> No one was "forced" to get an HR20...
> No one is "forced" to stay with DirecTV if they are not happy... might cost ya to brake your contract, but that is an issue between you and DirecTV.
> ...


Earl:

No offense but you are completely off base with this one. D* has forced us all into ONE solution for HD DVR's. There are no competitors, the old TIVO HD-DVR does not do MPEG4, D* is going MPEG 4. They have not announced another HD-DVR.

Oh, wait D* doesn't want me as a customer any more if I want an HD-DVR. So they forced me to leave for another vendor of service?

There was no choice here except: 
1) if you want D* and an HDDVR you have to get the HR20
2) if you want an HDDVR but not D*'s HR-20 you have to go to another provider to get that option?

So Earl - what's your take on the choices again? Forgo HD-DVR, get SD-DVR or just HD sans DVR? :blackeye:

D* is giving us all one really good choice - its called a class action to get a working alternative or get out of our 2 year leases on this box. A better choice for them would be a working box or a very nice - free upgrade with continued 2 year committment or a quiet release of all those who want it from the service commitment in exchange for returning this box and a $300 or price paid refund.

Think D* will give us the later choice? I don't think without some mass action on all owners part.


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Coffey77 said:


> One thing that I has stuck with me and seems to always need repeating is the fact that many of us who have found our way to this site are considered a bit "tech savvy" and in most cases don't apply to the millions of other subscribers of DirecTV. The fact that they have started to allow us to be a part of their RC's is, to me, HUGE! Something like this is unheard of. I always sit here and try and read as much as possible and try to re-create problems so I know first hand - and think about those who "hate" the HR20 and want to "leave D*". My question is - Why? They (and Earl) are giving us, the consumer - the people whom are going to be using this product the most - the ability to make it better. I'm not saying everyone's complaints are wrong or idiotic - not at all!! It's everyone's frustrations that will make this project better, make the HR20 better than anything that has been put out on the market before.
> 
> A few posts up, Earl said he paid $1k for the HR10 (almost as much if not more troublesome than the HR20) - I was first in line at BB for the HR20 for $399 and now I feel I practically stole it for that price! From other posts, many of you got it for free and possibly, D* basically paid you for the thing. I was just glad to get one.
> 
> Of all the posts here out of frustration, I don't believe I've ever ONCE seen that DirecTV has abandoned anyone. They've always tried to remedy the situation one way or another. I know it's hard, but try and give them _some_ credit, aside from the monthly check.


Aside from replacing the RF remote that went out with my Samsung box that didn't work with my new HDMI set, then sending the wrong remote, then not informing me that the RC-34 is RF already, and finally after I ordered two RF remotes for one box crediting my account for their error on the first wrong remote shipped . D* has done jack sh!^ for me. I paid for that remote more times over than I can imagine with my protection package that I pay monthly for that speicifically provides for this type of problem.

So what do I have to show for my HR20 troubles? Zero, except two "free" remotes from D* and 4 months of HD programing (funny enough, the same exact free HD offer that was sitting in my mail that week in a promo flyer mailing).

Sounds like D* likes Coffey though. Sounds like they are treating him really well.

And for allowing us to be part of their RC's - they need beta testers who are posting here and are willing to be FREE tech support for their programing staff.

Funny, I never had to beta test my Samsung, Phillips or TIVO boxes....


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

S. DiThomas said:


> Sounds like D* likes Coffey though. Sounds like they are treating him really well.


Most everyone likes Coffey in the morning!  Don't get me wrong, I may have one of the biggest gripes with DirecTV as they cost me over $6k and yet I still think all of this with the HR20 will just lead to bigger and better things. Once this box gets stable, future boxes will just get better and be able to expand upon what the HR20 is supposed to be doing. I do agree it is a mistake to not have competitive boxes as they have seemed to push all other manufacturers away. D* could have a reason for it but I've never heard of one.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

S. DiThomas said:


> Earl:
> 
> No offense but you are completely off base with this one. D* has forced us all into ONE solution for HD DVR's. There are no competitors, the old TIVO HD-DVR does not do MPEG4, D* is going MPEG 4. They have not announced another HD-DVR.
> 
> ...


What can I say?
I have said it all before...

If that is how you feel...
As I have told others... if can find a lawyer that things you have a winnable case... call them... pony up the retainer... and get it going.

If you really pushed DirecTV... I bet they would let you out of your contract, with no fee. Ah well...

Well... frankly... Yes... Going without a DVR.. and just watching thing Live, is a choice. Going SD, is a choice... Going HR10-250 is a choice (they haven't been deactivated yet)... Those are all choice.. As is changing carriers...

And frankly... that is the "value" question..
Is the HR20, given all the problems it may have for you, still "better", then the choices... that is the question, you, the next guy, the next gal, the next person.... needs to make for themselves...


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What can I say?
> I have said it all before...
> 
> Well... frankly... Yes... Going without a DVR.. and just watching thing Live, is a choice. Going SD, is a choice... Going HR10-250 is a choice (they haven't been deactivated yet)... Those are all choice.. As is changing carriers...


Earl:

I appreciate the reply and gather you like many of us are frustrated - perhaps less so given your insider knowledge. Honestly, however, do you really think D* gave us any choice with HD MPEG4/MPEG2 boxes?

Yes it has all been said before. I don't really expect a reply to that retorical question.

I am glad to see you think D* would let some of us out of our contracts. I for one really doubt that but trust your judgement and experience. I hope with the 6th month comes around I don't have to make the decision to see what D* will do for me and push the issue. I hope there will be no issues at all with the box (at least not significant ones) by April.

I also hope that Liberty takes D* in a new direction - bring TIVO back, dump the current HR20 software and offer a new, free upgrade to either a new OS or a new box to users with issues.

April is going to be an interesting month. And for the record - most class action counsel do not require retainers - they make out like bandits in the good cases, front the expert fees, and all (and even more than all) of their fees are paid through the class actions. That's the beauty of the method. It pays for itself - at least handsomely for the attorneys for the class.

Lawsuits aren't about the money - they are about changing behavior. D* needs to realize that its behavior in releasing the HR20 to early and with too little real world testing was improper; that their behavior in committing us all to 2 year leases and a $299 lease fee on a broken box was improper, and then change their behavior voluntarilly (that means sending out notices to the subscribers with the boxes stating there are known issues, telling the users about their plan to fix same, puting a timeline on that fix and letting the customer know that if it does not come, they will offer alternatives like refunds, programming credits, or a new box made by a different vendor to "disgruntled" users). Failure to do so will be a catastropic error on their part.

At this point it seems to this uneducated non-programmer user, that D* needs to scrap the entire OS and start with one from a reliable outside vendor. Maybe Liberty will make a call to the guys and gals at TIVO and get it done right.


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## alv (Aug 13, 2002)

I sent a letter to the office of the president trying to get out of the contract. I received a polite but firm call saying no, be patient and the box will be fixed. So getting out the contract is either extremely difficult or impossible.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

If you *really* want to get out of the contract you can pay the prorated monthly amount to do it. Cable usually has those "ditch the dish" promo's where they will pay that termination fee for you.


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## Marcia_Brady (Nov 25, 2005)

alv said:


> I sent a letter to the office of the president trying to get out of the contract. I received a polite but firm call saying no, be patient and the box will be fixed. So getting out the contract is either extremely difficult or impossible.


Wow, you'd think Bush would be too busy with Iraq and everything else to be concerned with a contractual obligation of a satellite company.

Gotta hand it to the guy, he _does_ care about Americans.


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