# DLB, Wanting is better than Having !!



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

So I got DLB and while I am grateful to get the feature, but it just did not seem as satisfying as I thought it would be. I guess I always imagined it would be a seamless operation, something like just changing between two channels and if I used the Prev channel button I could go back and forth with buffers intact. Instead it has the 2 hour activation period, the double press then single press of the down arrow; it all seem to be a bit much, I hate to say it but it's just easier to record the other show.

I tried last night to explain how to use it to my wife and her eyes just glossed over and she said "great" now hand me back the remote  Yeah I knew what she was thinking because I was thinking the same thing.

I am wondering, even though I know Tivo uses something along the same lines, is it not possible to have DLB running all the time and not need special buttons to switch it on or move from present channel to the previous channel?


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> So I got DLB and while I am grateful to get the feature, but it just did not seem as satisfying as I thought it would be. I guess I always imagined it would be a seamless operation, something like just changing between two channels and if I used the Prev channel button I could go back and forth with buffers intact. Instead it has the 2 hour activation period, the double press then single press of the down arrow; it all seem to be a bit much, I hate to say it but it's just easier to record the other show.
> 
> I tried last night to explain how to use it to my wife and her eyes just glossed over and she said "great" now hand me back the remote  Yeah I knew what she was thinking because I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> I am wondering, even though I know Tivo uses something along the same lines, is it not possible to have DLB running all the time and not need special buttons to switch it on or move from present channel to the previous channel?


Using the down arrow give you greater flexibility (independent previous channels on each buffer.) My DirecTivo used the down arrow as well to switch back and forth, so for many people are used to that button changing buffers.

If you and your wife don't need the extra flexibility, just tell her that down arrow replaces the previous button and keeps the buffers intact.


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

"the double press then single press of the down arrow; it all seem to be a bit much,"

Your kidding.....right?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Sartori said:


> "the double press then single press of the down arrow; it all seem to be a bit much,"
> 
> Your kidding.....right?


:lol: Maybe those 3 whole button presses are sooooo exhausting.

All kidding aside, no matter what's added or how it's implemented there will never be a point where everyone is happy.


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## PicaKing (Oct 8, 2006)

I have domestic help that pushes the button for me--lest I get too exhausted.....


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

I don't understand how it could be easier to record the other program. Certainly, if you don't intend to return to the buffered program within 2 hours, you probably are better off recording it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

MikeW said:


> I don't understand how...


 I'd say this is the point.
Everyone does things "their own way" and for their own reasons. Even the buttons we press/use would be different.
"Options" is the key. I really have zero use for DB, but it doesn't mean it's not important to someone else. "options"


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

I'll trade you.

I don't have it yet and really could use it right now.


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## Voix des Airs (Mar 23, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> So I got DLB and while I am grateful to get the feature, but it just did not seem as satisfying as I thought it would be. I guess I always imagined it would be a seamless operation, something like just changing between two channels and if I used the Prev channel button I could go back and forth with buffers intact. Instead it has the 2 hour activation period, the double press then single press of the down arrow; it all seem to be a bit much, I hate to say it but it's just easier to record the other show.


Could someone explain this for me? On DirecTV w/ TiVo (I still have a couple) DLB is always "on", there is nothing to "activate" and all you have to do to switch buffers is hit the down arrow and it switches almost instantly. Not having DLB on the DirecTV DVRs drives me nuts.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

After 2 hours of non use on the remote it stops using the background tuner. Other then that it's identicle except for the 90 min buffer.

So to activate it you press down twice. After that it's business as usual.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

:beatdeadhorse:

:beatdeadhorse:

:beatdeadhorse:

All of this has been debated to death...

The 2 our timeout isn't going away, love it or hate it.

I knew once "DLB" was finally available people still wouldn't be happy. I guess DirecTV could have just focused their time elsewhere and not worried about "DLB" with the reception they're getting for it.


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## Voix des Airs (Mar 23, 2009)

Shades228 said:


> After 2 hours of non use on the remote it stops using the background tuner. Other then that it's identicle except for the 90 min buffer.
> 
> So to activate it you press down twice. After that it's business as usual.


Thanks. But why? Why wouldn't it always be on? I don't understand why I would want it to work this way. Why wouldn't I want it to just always work, like TiVo?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Voix des Airs said:


> Why wouldn't it always be on?


Because that's the way DirecTV wants it.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Some people are just never happy.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Voix des Airs said:


> Thanks. But why? Why wouldn't it always be on? I don't understand why I would want it to work this way. Why wouldn't I want it to just always work, like TiVo?


Because D* uses the inactive background tuner at night to download things like the "Top Movies". If it was always buffering, they wouldn't have access to do this.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Voix des Airs said:


> Thanks. But why? Why wouldn't it always be on? I don't understand why I would want it to work this way. Why wouldn't I want it to just always work, like TiVo?


To be consistent .. Once activated, the receiver will never be hijacked by DIRECTV for any kind of housekeeping. Keep using the remote control to watch Live TV (whether you toggle tuners or not) and that background buffer stays active no matter what time of day it is.

After you've left the remote alone for 2 hours (almost certainly you've left the room at that point), DoublePlay turns off and DIRECTV can make use of the background receiver for any kind of housekeeping that needs to be done.

Otherwise, DIRECTV would have to randomly choose when it's a good time to do that housekeeping and maybe get it right. Also, depending on how much that second tuner is needed, it could be quite frustrating to have to lose your buffer to this housekeeping and not understand why. This way, you know exactly when things should happen no matter when you use DoublePlay.

I think in the end you'll find that it's very much like the DLB that you've grown accustomed to.


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## rccoleman (Oct 10, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I think in the end you'll find that it's very much like the DLB that you've grown accustomed to.


It would be more so if it simply turned on automatically when you hit the down arrow. The double button press and "nag screen" to turn on a feature that DirecTV would like us to use is too "in your face". If they absolutely need to turn it off after some period of inactivity, fine. Just enable it automatically when I actually want to use it. If they want to display the nag screen once, fine. Just not every, single time. I realize that people think that this is just nitpicking, but it feels like DirecTV added a worthwhile and desired feature, and unnecessarily made it annoying to use. I'm a big fan of devices doing what I want when I ask them to, rather than having them second guess me *every time*.

What's the downside to "accidentally" enabling it? Additional nag screens later when a recording needs to occur on the "other" tuner?

Rob


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Trust me, two button pushes is worth it. It's DLB / DP !


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

rccoleman said:


> It would be more so if it simply turned on automatically when you hit the down arrow. The double button press and "nag screen" to turn on a feature that DirecTV would like us to use is too "in your face". If they absolutely need to turn it off after some period of inactivity, fine. Just enable it automatically when I actually want to use it. If they want to display the nag screen once, fine. Just not every, single time. I realize that people think that this is just nitpicking, but it feels like DirecTV added a worthwhile and desired feature, and unnecessarily made it annoying to use. I'm a big fan of devices doing what I want when I ask them to, rather than having them second guess me *every time*.
> 
> What's the downside to "accidentally" enabling it? Additional nag screens later when a recording needs to occur on the "other" tuner?
> 
> Rob


Because the majority of customers don't come here and therefor have no idea what DP is. If they didn't have that warning I'm sure that people would call and start posting about how stupid it is to have the down arrow key a shortcut to the 201 channel.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

My dog does it for me for free. No taxes, no payroll:












PicaKing said:


> I have domestic help that pushes the button for me--lest I get too exhausted.....


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> Because the majority of customers don't come here and therefor have no idea what DP is. If they didn't have that warning I'm sure that people would call and start posting about how stupid it is to have the down arrow key a shortcut to the 201 channel.


This is probably pretty close .. As for turning it on, you don't see that screen "every time." you only see the activation screen when it goes from being off to being on. Typically this would only be once per viewing session (where DP is used).


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Some people would still piss and moan if they were being hung with a new rope. :nono2:


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

RobertE said:


> Some people would still piss and moan if they were being hung with a new rope. :nono2:


nothing like that new rope smell


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Play nice, please.


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## boufa (Dec 24, 2007)

I have to say that I watch a lot of TV at night, in bed. I still have an old Directivo hooked up to that tv. The DLB function goes away completely for a hour (?) or so every night around 2am. The second tuner is on a service channel, and it says something about doing its daily download.

Not a big deal, but proof that the tivo method is not without it's flaws. As with everything, compromises have to be made, and I think that the directv solution was a good one. I too however feel that the banner is too much, I understand the need, but maybe if it could be turned off in the options? Call it a one touch double play on/off setting.

Its and observation, not a complaint, and its not too much effort, just a streamlining step.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

That's a flaw? TiVo DLB runs all the time except when something needs to be downloaded at 2AM then it goes back into action without intervention. Sounds to me like the right way to do it rather then dropping it after every 2hrs of non-use then having to restart it again.

I can live with the HR implementation because it's better then nothing. However other then making it more visible I see no benefit to this method.



boufa said:


> I have to say that I watch a lot of TV at night, in bed. I still have an old Directivo hooked up to that tv. The DLB function goes away completely for a hour (?) or so every night around 2am. The second tuner is on a service channel, and it says something about doing its daily download.
> 
> Not a big deal, but proof that the tivo method is not without it's flaws. As with everything, compromises have to be made, and I think that the directv solution was a good one. I too however feel that the banner is too much, I understand the need, but maybe if it could be turned off in the options? Call it a one touch double play on/off setting.
> 
> Its and observation, not a complaint, and its not too much effort, just a streamlining step.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Look no need for anybody to get pissed off about my comment, I am just saying that its just about as easy for me to press the record button and then do the whole trick play routine, the DLB makes it just a tiny bit easier but not as much as I was hoping for.

For those who like the way this feature is implemented, great I am happy for you.
I was just imagining that it would be a little more transparent in operation hence it's not as great a feature as I thought it would be.

Hopefully D* will fine tune it in later updates and integrate it more seamlessly by leaving it ON all the time and instead of using the down arrow, then go one better than Tivo and have it seamlessly integrated into just using the Prev Ch button to switch buffers.


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## Voix des Airs (Mar 23, 2009)

++dreadlk

The issue I have with DirecTV's approach here is that I just know that I am going to forget to turn it on. I know it. And since I always want it turned on, I think that, for me at least, I'd much rather it be on all the time and deal with it being interrupted late at night, like TiVo, than to have to specifically turn it on every time I sit down to watch TV (even assuming that I remember every time, it's still a mild inconvenience to have to turn it on manually _every time_).


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> Look no need for anybody to get pissed off about my comment, I am just saying that its just about as easy for me to press the record button and then do the whole trick play routine, the DLB makes it just a tiny bit easier but not as much as I was hoping for.
> 
> ...have it seamlessly integrated into just using the Prev Ch button.


I'm not sure why you feel pressing record would be just about as easy. The workaround has been to record both programs. Most everyone complained about all the effort to go back and delete the recordings. Now that you don't have to do that, I guess deleting the recordings isn't that bad?

Not sure about using the Prev Ch button to swap tuners. How would I go back to my Prev Ch on the current tuner, press it twice? I agree that it would be nice to have a separate button for it. Even my cable Motorola DVR had one, but the down arrow key sounds like it works fine.

For me I will use DLB when watching NFL ST. If the teams I want to monitor aren't are on the mix channel, I will use DLB to monitor them. My team recording on tuner 1 and one of the other teams in my teams division on tuner 2.

During commercials, I will flip to tuner 2 and if nothing is happening with that game, might switch from game to game. If I had the second tuner recording, I would have to enter the channel #, then stop the recording. Then press record again to start buffering the new channel. So I think DLB is useful and can't wait to have it once again.


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

If you forget to turn it on, what's the big deal? What if the other tuner is on something you're not interested in watching? You'd change to another channel and the buffer would be flushed. If you don't switch between tuners in 2 hours, you're not interested in what's on that tuner anyway.


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## Voix des Airs (Mar 23, 2009)

beer_geek said:


> If you forget to turn it on, what's the big deal? What if the other tuner is on something you're not interested in watching? You'd change to another channel and the buffer would be flushed. If you don't switch between tuners in 2 hours, you're not interested in what's on that tuner anyway.


That's a pretty big assumption.


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## rccoleman (Oct 10, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> This is probably pretty close .. As for turning it on, you don't see that screen "every time." you only see the activation screen when it goes from being off to being on. Typically this would only be once per viewing session (where DP is used).


Let's be conservative and say every day or so. Is it likely I'm going to forget or want to answer differently on the 50th time? If it's not a destructive action, it seems silly to keep reminding me of something that I have no reason to say "no" to. This is along the lines of "it should just work," rather than involve me in a meaningless decision each time.

I suppose that the argument is that a parade of different people may be using the device, each needing to be told of this feature (that just about all other DVRs have). I'd just expect the device to "get a clue" after a while, and there's precedent in other software to stop reminding your after X iterations of "are you sure?" for something that doesn't result in loss of data.

Rob


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm not sure how you forget to turn it on unless you're wanting to turn it on for future use. I've solved that problem on one of my HR20s buy using the serial port and dtvcontrol.exe.

An AutoIt script kicks off at 6 am each morning, tunes to CNNHD, turns on DP and tunes to ESPNHD. When I'm up and ready, I can scan the news / sports in a few minutes to see that one or two minutes that may interest me.

I also have a script that keeps DP alive for 6 hours. Haven't used it much but probably will on Saturday afternoon football and naps.

I'm looking at some wireless serial ports to add to another box.

For the person that wanted the previous button instead of the down arrow. . .previous is still what it is. So if you're not interested in the buffers, previous switches the current tuner to the previous channel. So you can now surf 4 channels with previous down arrow / previous and have a small buffer waiting on either tuner.

I'm usually interested in one program and switch between two others on the other tuner.

So turning on DP is a non-event to me and it's better than the Tivo implementation because it has 2 90 minute buffers. We use it every day.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DLB works perfectly here according to how it was designed, in fact, it seems pretty much foolproof once you use it more than once - I have all family members now using it here.

Since this feature is "nice" but not critical in this household...how it works (which is very simple) seems more than adequate.


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## 94SupraTT (Nov 18, 2005)

Is DLB in the latest NR?


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## Movieman (May 9, 2009)

94SupraTT said:


> Is DLB in the latest NR? I've had it for months with the CE however I haven't kept up with NR.


Yes it has reached the lastest NR. Just in time for football season.


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## boufa (Dec 24, 2007)

Movieman said:


> Yes it has reached the lastest NR. Just in time for football season.


You know... that is important. Someone, or everyone needs to send a big thank you to Directv for their timing. They get soooo much abuse, and sometimes they deserve it, but this one was right on.

So, whether by accident or by design, thank you directv from me for perfectly timing the release of this feature. We may be critical of some of the minor things (we do hate change don't we) but overall thank you, and keep the development going.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Here’s a situation that happens to me every once in a while and it’s very annoying.

I am watching a movie and I pause the movie to go get a drink or do something else like help out one of the kids etc.

I come back, press play and go on with the movie, maybe 10 - 30 minutes have passed since I paused it.

At some point during the rest of the movie my finger accidentally hits a single digit like 4 or 9 or the remote gets squeezed and changes channels, and before I can do anything the HR has switched to channel 4 etc. 

Of course when I go back to the movie I realize that 30 minutes of the show has evaporated and I can’t watch it anymore. So I have to search for the next showing and record it. (if there is a next showing  )

DLB does not help because I never turned on the buffer, and that’s one of the things I don’t like about having to turn it on. Yes it's great if you’re intentionally switching between channels but it does not help if you are just watching TV and accidentally switch channels, which is something that I am sure happens to many people on this forum.


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## compac (Oct 6, 2006)

Good point... but I want my Db(mtv)



RACJ2 said:


> Because D* uses the inactive background tuner at night to download things like the "Top Movies". If it was always buffering, they wouldn't have access to do this.


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## Kojo62 (Aug 9, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Here's a situation that happens to me every once in a while and it's very annoying.
> 
> I am watching a movie and I pause the movie to go get a drink or do something else like help out one of the kids etc.
> 
> ...


I agree, that is very annoying. But it seems to me that it's the same problem you have now with only one live buffer. Even on a DirecTiVo unit, you have the same behavior. That's a separate issue that has nothing to do with DLB or DP.


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## gnahc79 (Jan 12, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> Here's a situation that happens to me every once in a while and it's very annoying.
> 
> I am watching a movie and I pause the movie to go get a drink or do something else like help out one of the kids etc.
> 
> ...


I've had this happen a few times and to prevent that I just hit record. I don't think any DVR has a function to prevent an accidental channel switch.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Here's a situation that happens to me every once in a while and it's very annoying.
> 
> I am watching a movie and I pause the movie to go get a drink or do something else like help out one of the kids etc.
> 
> ...


This has zero to do with DoublePlay. Whether you have DoublePlay on or off, if you change the channel (on purpose or accidentally), your buffer gets flushed whether you have one or two buffers. If your watching something you don't want to lose, take 2 seconds and hit the record button when you get up to go do something. This way on one else will change the channel while you are away and you won't accidentally hit the wrong button on the remote.

When you're done watching the show, simply delete it.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Well he could use DLB and have the second tuner on the same channel however hitting record is better. I almost always do this when I watch something I want to see. Then just hit stop and delete when you're done.

Too many times I lose the buffer to a kid running up to jump on the couch with me or hop in my lap to watch tv.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> DLB does not help because I never turned on the buffer, and that's one of the things I don't like about having to turn it on. Yes it's great if you're intentionally switching between channels but it does not help if you are just watching TV and accidentally switch channels, which is something that I am sure happens to many people on this forum.


Fair enough, but if you are that concerned about the program, as someone else mentioned, press record. Or as Shades228 mentioned, get in the habit of pressing down arrow twice. Then enter the channel number for the exact same program. Then down arrow to the original tuner with the same show. Now you have a backup copy running on tuner 2, in case you fat finger a button.

One thing that is actually better then my Moto cable DVR that had DLB is this. When you pressed power by mistake, you lost the buffer for both tuners. At least the HR's keep buffering both tuners in that situation.


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

I had concerns about doubleplay when I first heard about it too. After having it for a while and then learning why DP turns off after 2 hours, I love it. It is not the old TiVo, but it does the same thing. Many people will never use it, but sports fans seem to get the most out of it. I know people that have the old TiVo SD and still do not know they have it. So If you know you have it, learn how to use it and you too will be happy.


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## MNT (Apr 5, 2007)

I think it boils down to this: DIRECTV has done their best to implement a much-requested feature, and if you don't like the way they did it, you're probably the kind of person who's going to want their new TiVo box next year.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> So I got DLB and while I am grateful to get the feature, but it just did not seem as satisfying as I thought it would be. I guess I always imagined it would be a seamless operation, something like just changing between two channels and if I used the Prev channel button I could go back and forth with buffers intact. Instead it has the 2 hour activation period, the double press then single press of the down arrow; it all seem to be a bit much, I hate to say it but it's just easier to record the other show.
> 
> I tried last night to explain how to use it to my wife and her eyes just glossed over and she said "great" now hand me back the remote  Yeah I knew what she was thinking because I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> I am wondering, even though I know Tivo uses something along the same lines, is it not possible to have DLB running all the time and not need special buttons to switch it on or move from present channel to the previous channel?


!rolling

You must be kidding....

If you walk away from yoru dvr and don;t touch it for 2 hours at all, it shuts off.. who gives a ^*&^*&

You have the ability to keep one show in the buffer and flip between several others using prev channel function on the other tuner, which is somethign that Tivo never let you do....

And every function has a button you need to press.. DP's is the down arrow.. Not sure what the problem is with that...

And really? You can't hit the button twice the first time? Society is getting lazier and lazier...

And hello 90 min buffers for each!!!! That there Tivo is still at 30 mins isn't it? I think that Directv just said bite me to Tivo DLB....


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Here's a situation that happens to me every once in a while and it's very annoying.
> 
> I am watching a movie and I pause the movie to go get a drink or do something else like help out one of the kids etc.
> 
> ...


So you want a DVR that will baby sit you? Seriously? NO dvr is going to save you from to many multiple and random button presses... Thats your issue, not Directv's.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Not to sound like a broken record but...

To sum it up, if the show/game/movie is that important to you record it!!!


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> Not to sound like a broken record but...
> 
> To sum it up, if the show/game/movie is that important to you record it!!!


Or activate DoublePlay and have each tuner tuned to the same channel.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Here's a situation that happens to me every once in a while and it's very annoying.
> 
> I am watching a movie and I pause the movie to go get a drink or do something else like help out one of the kids etc.
> 
> ...


So the DVR is supposed to psychically know if you changed channels accidentally or on purpose?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> Not to sound like a broken record but...
> 
> To sum it up, if the show/game/movie is that important to you record it!!!


It is all too complicated for me. That is what I do and I will leave the DLB or Doubleplay for the experts. Just by reading these threads, it sounds too risky not to set the shows to record. I remember using it with the Tivo, but as mentioned, it was always there, not another conscious decision to remember.
Just my 1 cent opinion.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> Here's a situation that happens to me every once in a while and it's very annoying.
> 
> I am watching a movie and I pause the movie to go get a drink or do something else like help out one of the kids etc.
> 
> ...





gnahc79 said:


> I've had this happen a few times and to prevent that I just hit record. I don't think any DVR has a function to prevent an accidental channel switch.


Actually ReplayTV did have such a safeguard on their stand-alone units years ago, and oh how I have missed that feature ever since ;

If you were on live buffer delay and intentionally or accidently pressed any button on the remote requesting any sort of channel change, a prompt screen would come up informing you of the need to press the remote's "select" button to actually make the change. If not then simply do nothing and the prompt would timeout and resume showing the program you were watching at the same point while continuing to hold the buffer.

Since DirecTV now owns ReplayTV I certainly would appreciate an incorporation of this safety feature which rather astoundingly I have never seen duplicated by anyone else since.


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## dally7777 (Nov 19, 2008)

My local Cable Company's DVR would have a screen pop up that said "Changing the Channel will Remove all Paused Content, Do you wish to Continue?"

You click yes or no......

It is very frustrating when you get caught up in a show and pause to get a drink and come back and your cat has pushed a buttone laying on it.....

It seems like a rather small addition to make it "foolproof" !


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

I think the select button confirmation is a great idea for anytime your buffer is behind real-time. 

I also think that DP should be on all the time. When house keeping is necessary it should look for an inactivity period of >2-3 hours, then prompt for permission via OSD. If no reply to the prompt then house keeping can commence. And once done with HK it could resume DP. This option, IMO, wouldn't be any more annoying than the current implementation and would provide full-time DP (at least as full-time as could be)

And before the DP opposition voices displeasure, the 2-3 hour inactivity should safely assume nobody is watching, much the same way it does it now with DP activated. 

Frank


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

dally7777 said:


> My local Cable Company's DVR would have a screen pop up that said "Changing the Channel will Remove all Paused Content, Do you wish to Continue?"
> 
> You click yes or no......
> 
> ...


Oh;

I stand corrected, glad to see that another other DVR developer had such a feature. Again wish that DirecTV would implement something similar since they now own ReplayTV patents as this frustratingly happens to me a lot when I briefly want to pause a program for a phone call, bathroom break, raid on the kitchen, etc. only to come back and sit on the remote or something and then "POOF." Buffer all gone.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Sartori said:


> "the double press then single press of the down arrow; it all seem to be a bit much,"
> 
> Your kidding.....right?


Nope, they're not kidding.

Once you start DoublePlay it's just a single button press just like TiVo. 

Mike


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## HDTV_Duffus (May 25, 2008)

All this discussion and some of us are still waiting for a chance to explore the options.

What is the projected date for this rollout to be complete?

Unfortunately still waiting for the upgrade in West TN.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> ...if the show/game/movie is that important to you record it!!!


I used to laugh at this statement. And I used to argue and argue why DP should always be active.

Then one night I am on the phone with a friend of mine and I say "man, why does Showtime schedule Rambo at 10, i can't stay up that long on a school night" She said "you have a DVR, just record it." I thought to myself "geeze, why didn't I think of that?"

I love the DP option. I'm glad to finally have it. I just can't wait until D* gets this NR in full implementation. It's going to rock for football season. Especially with how the PREV button works now. Much better than how the old D-TiVo did it. I'm going to like having the Red Zone channel on one tuner and be able to flip between multiples on the other tuner without ever interrupting the buffer on Red Zone. I used to need to remember what the "other" tuner had on it so I wouldn't scan channels and kill the buffer.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

On losing info in the buffer, if I have something in the local buffer and I hit a number like "4" by mistake, this is what I do. I press the "2" key 3 times, so it enters channel 4222. Then it comes back with "Channel Not Available" and I don't lose the buffer.

(I use the 2 because I don't have a channel 2 or 22 in my local market. So if I hit the 2 too many times, it doesn't change it to channel 2 or 22 after the "Channel Not Available" appears.)


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Yes I do that also but half the time when I hit it a number and I dont realize it until it's too late. I sit there trying to hammer in three more digits but by then it changes channel.



RACJ2 said:


> On losing info in the buffer, if I have something in the local buffer and I hit a number like "4" by mistake, this is what I do. I press the "2" key 3 times, so it enters channel 4222. Then it comes back with "Channel Not Available" and I don't lose the buffer.
> 
> (I use the 2 because I don't have a channel 2 or 22 in my local market. So if I hit the 2 too many times, it doesn't change it to channel 2 or 22 after the "Channel Not Available" appears.)


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Of course not What would be nice is if the DLB was ON all the time and it was implemented differently. Then a mistake like this would not be an issue, thats where just pressing Record gets a +1 over DLB (as it is now)



ATARI said:


> So the DVR is supposed to psychically know if you changed channels accidentally or on purpose?


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

If this is a major problem then all one has to do is activate DP and then put the same channel on both tuners.....problem solved. :grin:


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

That's the problem with the way people like you think! All you can see is the situation from your viewpoint which from what I am seeing is "Sports" Yes with sports showing on multiple channels; people will make a conscious effort to turn on DLB.

Question is what other category of show would make a person make a conscious decision to be switching back and forth between two buffered channels? Very few! Maybe the occasional News event but lets face it very few times would the average person use DLB for anything else than sports.

My argument is if your going to go through all of the software programming to make DLB then why not implement it in a Transparent way that it's always ON and always buffering the Last two channels that you have watched?

I hear this often said "Oh even a Tivo does not do that" Well if Tivo is going to be the Gold standard for Directv, and they don't feel it necessary to go further and develop with even better features than Tivo, then it tells me that "we" HR2X owners will always be behind Tivo in design and functionality.



inkahauts said:


> So you want a DVR that will baby sit you? Seriously? NO dvr is going to save you from to many multiple and random button presses... Thats your issue, not Directv's.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

People complain about the popup stating that DP is engaged.

But, people want a popup stating that your trying to change a channel when DP is running.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> That's the problem with the way people like you think! All you can see is the situation from your viewpoint which from what I am seeing is "Sports" Yes with sports showing on multiple channels; people will make a conscious effort to turn on DLB.
> 
> Question is what other category of show would make a person make a conscious decision to be switching back and forth between two buffered channels? Very few! Maybe the occasional News event but lets face it very few times would the average person use DLB for anything else than sports.
> 
> ...


I use it all the time for non-sports viewing.

When I'm not watching a recording, I like keeping one tuner on a channel and surfing on the other; one is an anchor and the other is variable. If I find something I like better then the current anchor I switch and surf the other tuner.

I also use it to switch between two specific channels...e.g. the Mets and Tiger.

Although I use it daily, and not for sports, I do agree that it should be full time. However I must be missing something. Are you saying that you want it to swap tuners every time you change channels? I don't think I would like that very much. I wouldn't be able to use it the way I currently do and it would be very bad for sports also; unless I've misunderstood what you're trying to say. What advantage would it be to have it operate that way?

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Of course not What would be nice is if the DLB was ON all the time and it was implemented differently. Then a mistake like this would not be an issue, thats where just pressing Record gets a +1 over DLB (as it is now)


Uh, yeah, a mistake like accidentally changing the channel would still be an issue :scratchin

Even if you do this on a TiVo that does have always on (except when it's not) DLB, if you change the channel accidentally it flushes the buffer.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> Question is what other category of show would make a person make a conscious decision to be switching back and forth between two buffered channels? Very few! Maybe the occasional News event but lets face it very few times would the average person use DLB for anything else than sports.
> 
> My argument is if your going to go through all of the software programming to make DLB then why not implement it in a Transparent way that it's always ON and always buffering the Last two channels that you have watched?


I will tell you that I used DLB with cable on all types of programming. It gave me something to go to during a commercial. If tuner 2 was also at a commercial, I could rewind to content I wanted to watch. And your argument in the post above seems to be a bit conflicting.



> _If your going to go through all of the software programming to make DLB then why not implement it in a Transparent way that it's always ON...
> 
> ...very few times would the average person use DLB for anything else than sports.
> _


If the average person isn't using it, why set it up to always be on for them, since they don't even know it exists. The sports fans use it and they know enough to turn it on at the start of a game. So it works fine for them.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> My argument is if your going to go through all of the software programming to make DLB then why not implement it in a Transparent way that it's always ON and always buffering the Last two channels that you have watched?


It's been stated numerous times. The background buffer is used for more things than just buffering a Live TV program. It's also used a lot more than you might think, so having it go on and off frequently will result in sometimes having a big buffer, sometimes having no buffer and would be very inconsistent. So, instead, DIRECTV gives you the buffer while you are using it and will not hijack it until 2 hours after you're done watching TV. So, as a result, you need to turn DP on so you can ensure a safe background buffer.



> I hear this often said "Oh even a Tivo does not do that" Well if Tivo is going to be the Gold standard for Directv, and they don't feel it necessary to go further and develop with even better features than Tivo, then it tells me that "we" HR2X owners will always be behind Tivo in design and functionality.


So are you suggesting that these DoublePlay features are not better than TiVo?


2x 90 minute buffers
A _safe_ buffer: while DoublePlay is active, DIRECTV will not take the buffer from you.
The ability to "play" behind in real time on the background buffer
Auto start a paused show
up to 4 different previous channels on each buffer
No "lost" buffer when surfing through channel tuned on background buffer
The ability to tune both tuners to same channel


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

dreadlk said:


> Of course not What would be nice is if the DLB was ON all the time and it was implemented differently. Then a mistake like this would not be an issue, thats where just pressing Record gets a +1 over DLB (as it is now)


Ummmm, ok so a Tivo who has DLB on full time does what to save you from an accidental channel change? Oh right, it doesn't. It flushes the current buffer as well. My mistake.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> That's the problem with the way people like you think! All you can see is the situation from your viewpoint


Hi! Have you met yourself?! 

Seriously, everyone uses their DVR differently, and despite there being several existing threads discussing DoublePlay you started one to say that the way it was implemented does not suit your needs, so you really can't be upset that others differ with your opinion, right?

I would love if DP was active 24x7, but it's not. What do I lose? I lose the occasional surprise or finding something interesting on the background buffer, and I have to press DOWN one extra time to start DoublePlay. That to me is a small sacrifice, as most of my viewing is from the Playlist, so it's rare I look to watch live TV anyway. And that extra keystroke to start DP? More than made up for if I do start it and pause both tuners, as every time I toggle between them, as Play resumes automatically. I save one keystroke on each swap, so over the course of a 3 hour game that could be well near one hundred keystrokes saved.

I'm very happy with the implementation and DO think it's better than just "dual live buffers". YMMV. 

By the way, if anything is so important that randomly tuning away will cause grief, just press RECORD to begin with. One can't blame DoublePlay for Butterfingers.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I use it all the time on non-sports programming -- it's just a feature that is there if you want to use it whether it's news, sports, sitcoms or xxx movies.

And I use it for sports or surfing. . . more like limited surfing, since with a dvr and a guide you don't need to surf all the channels.

Bottom line. . . I like DP.


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## Voix des Airs (Mar 23, 2009)

Doug Brott said:


> It's been stated numerous times. The background buffer is used for more things than just buffering a Live TV program.


I appreciate your elaboration on this point, but I think that in general, on a consumer product, if at all possible the technical should bow to the user-facing aspects of the product (I.e. the UI and behavior should not reflect the underlying structure of the code or hardware). I don't know what other things the background tuner is being used for but it isn't clear to me why the background tuner would necessarily _have_ to frequently and unexpectedly switch away from ordinarily buffering. In other words, as the only reason that I've seen that makes any sense to me for this behavior is yours - I haven't seen any reasonable user-facing reasons for this behavior - I would argue that if _at all possible_ whatever housekeeping the device is doing with the background tuner should be adjusted to yield the more consumer-friendly result (I would argue that that is DP always on).



> 2x 90 minute buffers
> A _safe_ buffer: while DoublePlay is active, DIRECTV will not take the buffer from you.
> The ability to "play" behind in real time on the background buffer
> Auto start a paused show
> ...


I totally accept this entire list but for the second item: I still don't understand why this feature has to be repeatedly manually activated instead of the device simply asking before it uses the other tuner for its own purposes (with an appropriate timeout for non-response). The result is essentially the same, the background tuner is blocked from performing whatever housekeeping it needs to without user permission. If the reason is that the device needs to do this all the time, then how does TiVo avoid this necessity and why can't DirecTV do it that way with their own device?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Voix des Airs said:


> I totally accept this entire list but for the second item: I still don't understand why this feature has to be repeatedly manually activated instead of the device simply asking before it uses the other tuner for its own purposes (with an appropriate timeout for non-response). The result is essentially the same, the background tuner is blocked from performing whatever housekeeping it needs to without user permission. If the reason is that the device needs to do this all the time, then how does TiVo avoid this necessity and why can't DirecTV do it that way with their own device?


Well, the low hanging fruit in this equation is DIRECTV Cinema. Without time to perform the operation, the list of new content would remain frequently static which is pretty much the way the TiVo operated. "anytime" access provides greater opportunity to DIRECTV to get this content onto your receiver.

I suspect there are other uses as well that have not yet been made apparent to us, but I don't know what those are at this point.

Still, what do you lose?

(1) You have to press the down arrow twice rather than once on the first access after being away from the receiver for a while (Turn it on).

(2) You will only have random content (Stuff you never planned to watch in the first place) on one buffer rather than two.

That's it .. Everything else is the classic Dual Live Buffers (except better).

Oh, and as for the second item, DIRECTV provides you a safe, predictable buffer. TiVo could and would hijack your background buffer when necessary. DIRECTV will not hijack the buffer at all while you are using it.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, and as for the second item, DIRECTV provides you a safe, predictable buffer. TiVo could and would hijack your background buffer when necessary. DIRECTV will not hijack the buffer at all while you are using it.


Given my lack of knowledge on DP, does this mean if I want to experiment with it, it would be wise for me to check my To-Do list first to be sure it does not bump an upcoming program, or will it warn me when I go to use it?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

armophob said:


> Given my lack of knowledge on DP, does this mean if I want to experiment with it, it would be wise for me to check my To-Do list first to be sure it does not bump an upcoming program, or will it warn me when I go to use it?


It will not bump your upcoming progarm recording. It will popup a warning. No worries about To Do list. 

Mike


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

The only time I recall Tivo hijacking a tuner was in the 2AM timeframe. . . I would think today's software could derive some safe times to hijack after a couple weeks of viewing.

Even 2AM didn't bother me!


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

dennisj00 said:


> The only time I recall Tivo hijacking a tuner was in the 2AM timeframe. . . I would think today's software could derive some safe times to hijack after a couple weeks of viewing.
> 
> Even 2AM didn't bother me!


I used to work at night and the 2 am inconvenienced me.

Everything below this is general responses to multiple threads not to the quoted poster.

The bottom line really is people can rationalize what they would like all they want and it won't be anything new that wasn't brought up in other threads when it was being tested. This is the system they chose and this is how it will be unless they decide to change it.

Buffering 2 tuners full time to me seems a waste and just more wear and tear on the HD. If I want to use the service I will and when I'm not watching TV I could care less what's on because I've setup my shows to record.

Use it order don't use it that's the choice there is.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> My argument is if your going to go through all of the software programming to make DLB then why not implement it in a Transparent way that it's always ON and always buffering the Last two channels that you have watched?


I don't think you understand the difference between a "tuner" and a "channel". Once you figure that out, DLB will be much clearer for you.

As far as it being "complicated" or "too many button presses", I just don't see it. How often is it used? 6 times per hour? 20 times per hour? With the tivo implementation it would take 6 and 20 button presses per hour. With this implementation it takes 7 and 21. One extra button press as long as you're using it, doesn't seem like too many to me.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> It will not bump your upcoming progarm recording. It will popup a warning. No worries about To Do list.
> 
> Mike


Ok, thanks


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I don't think you understand the difference between a "tuner" and a "channel". Once you figure that out, DLB will be much clearer for you.
> 
> As far as it being "complicated" or "too many button presses", I just don't see it. How often is it used? 6 times per hour? 20 times per hour? With the tivo implementation it would take 6 and 20 button presses per hour. With this implementation it takes 7 and 21. One extra button press as long as you're using it, doesn't seem like too many to me.


Actually, if you also paused the content (which you had to on a TiVo as it would catch up to Live TV on the background buffer if you didn't), it would be 12 & 40 button presses. With the HR2x, it's 7 & 21 thanks to auto-resume


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

And now the meat of the matter is revealed. So for people who never ever intend to spend $6 ordering any of this over priced stuff we end up with features that don't work as well as they could.

Now Doug what would happen if Directv put in a Toggle in the Menu for Consant DLB and no wasted HD space holding Directv Cinema shows? I wonder how many people would opt to leave the Directv Cinema feature ON?:lol:



 Doug Brott said:


> Well, the low hanging fruit in this equation is DIRECTV Cinema. Without time to perform the operation, the list of new content would remain frequently static which is pretty much the way the TiVo operated. "anytime" access provides greater opportunity to DIRECTV to get this content onto your receiver.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, if you also paused the content (which you had to on a TiVo as it would catch up to Live TV on the background buffer if you didn't), it would be 12 & 40 button presses. With the HR2x, it's 7 & 21 thanks to auto-resume


Totally forgot about that Doug. It's better having DLB than I thought.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> And now the meat of the matter is revealed. So for people who never ever intend to spend $6 ordering any of this over priced stuff we end up with features that don't work as well as they could.
> 
> Now Doug what would happen if Directv put in a Toggle in the Menu for Consant DLB and no wasted HD space holding Directv Cinema shows? I wonder how many people would opt to leave the Directv Cinema feature ON?:lol:


Ok why don't you say how it would be that much better? How would it be beneficial to turn your TV on and have some random channel buffering as well? You can't set each tuner to default to a channel and once you start having things record the tuners change channels. With all the replies you have in this post think of how many times you could have activated DP. Pushing down twice is too much but typing your thoughts on why you don't like it isn't?

It's always been posted that the second tuner is always used for background downloads, messages, misc other items sent from the sat. How is this the meat? I would also guess that adding even more read/writes is not in the best interest of DirecTV to keep increasing HD use and worry about replacements. It also uses the non reserved space. Imagine coming home to see that things didn't record because you were buffering and it didn't have enough HD space.

I can understand people complaining about not having DP at all. Not having DP while not watching TV is just looking for something to complain about.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> I don't think you understand the difference between a "tuner" and a "channel". Once you figure that out, DLB will be much clearer for you.
> 
> Hmmm let me see, Maybe you can help me figure it out:
> 
> ...


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> And now the meat of the matter is revealed. So for people who never ever intend to spend $6 ordering any of this over priced stuff we end up with features that don't work as well as they could.
> 
> Now Doug what would happen if Directv put in a Toggle in the Menu for Consant DLB and no wasted HD space holding Directv Cinema shows? I wonder how many people would opt to leave the Directv Cinema feature ON?:lol:


While there have been several reasons given as to why DoublePlay works as it does I believe that DirecTV also decided that designing a DLB feature like no other HDDVR has, could produce a patent for that feature and keep DirecTV's HDDVR+ from being labeled as the same.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, if you also paused the content (which you had to on a TiVo as it would catch up to Live TV on the background buffer if you didn't), it would be 12 & 40 button presses. With the HR2x, it's 7 & 21 thanks to auto-resume





spartanstew said:


> Totally forgot about that Doug. It's better having DLB than I thought.


Is this thing on?! 



Drew2k said:


> I would love if DP was active 24x7, but it's not. What do I lose? I lose the occasional surprise or finding something interesting on the background buffer, and I have to press DOWN one extra time to start DoublePlay. That to me is a small sacrifice, as most of my viewing is from the Playlist, so it's rare I look to watch live TV anyway. And that extra keystroke to start DP? More than made up for i*f I do start it and pause both tuners, as every time I toggle between them, as Play resumes automatically. I save one keystroke on each swap, so over the course of a 3 hour game that could be well near one hundred keystrokes saved.*


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Let me ask you this, would you prefer DLB the way it is now or would you prefer a DLB that was always ON and always buffering the last two channels you where watching.

Accidentally have a remote button pressed, no problem just hit Prev channel and your back.

Left a show because it was on commercial break, jumped over to CNN, the got engrossed in a news item, came back realized you just missed 5 minutes of that show, no problem just rewind

No need to turn on anything, no need to use down arrows to switch back and forth, just work the the receiver like you always did and that buffer is there 24/7 backing you up.

To me that's a better DLB, I guess it's not possible on this hardware but I am only saying that it's what DLB should be.



Shades228 said:


> Ok why don't you say how it would be that much better? How would it be beneficial to turn your TV on and have some random channel buffering as well? You can't set each tuner to default to a channel and once you start having things record the tuners change channels. With all the replies you have in this post think of how many times you could have activated DP. Pushing down twice is too much but typing your thoughts on why you don't like it isn't?
> 
> It's always been posted that the second tuner is always used for background downloads, messages, misc other items sent from the sat. How is this the meat? I would also guess that adding even more read/writes is not in the best interest of DirecTV to keep increasing HD use and worry about replacements. It also uses the non reserved space. Imagine coming home to see that things didn't record because you were buffering and it didn't have enough HD space.
> 
> I can understand people complaining about not having DP at all. Not having DP while not watching TV is just looking for something to complain about.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Let me ask you this


Who are you asking? Your post followed mine but it doesn't seem to be me ...

Oh wait, I have to read through your entire post to find you quoted someone else, but you replied above it? Huh ... very confusing.



> would you prefer DLB the way it is now or would you prefer a DLB that was always ON and always buffering the last two channels you where watching.
> 
> Accidentally have a remote button pressed, no problem just hit Prev channel and your back.
> 
> ...


Not even TiVo works the way you describe. Again, if any show is that important, just hit RECORD.

On a whim you decide you want to surf on one tuner while keeping a move on another tuner? Well, just hit DOWN, tune to CNN on that tuner, tune to something else. Done? Hit DOWN again and you are back at your movie. It's not very difficult ...it's one keystroke.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Sorry about that, the posts came in and I was answering the other one at the time.

Back to topic.

Yes I have, and I am not a blind follower, I state my mind even if I have 20 dedicated D* fans blasting me back.
If you read my posts you would see I said I am happy for those who like it the way it is, but since I am not a huge sports fan it really is not all that well suited for my needs. Putting everything else to one side, the most unfriendly part of it is the need to remember to turn the thing ON. Just wait, it will catch you one day and you will remember I said so Drew.



Drew2k said:


> Hi! Have you met yourself?!
> 
> Seriously, everyone uses their DVR differently, and despite there being several existing threads discussing DoublePlay you started one to say that the way it was implemented does not suit your needs, so you really can't be upset that others differ with your opinion, right?
> 
> ...


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Let me ask you this, would you prefer DLB the way it is now or would you prefer a DLB that was always ON and always buffering the last two channels you where watching.
> 
> Accidentally have a remote button pressed, no problem just hit Prev channel and your back.
> 
> ...


I refer you to this post as to why I think your implimentation would be bad.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2207580#post2207580

Mike


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Yes, and I am not a blind follower, I state my mind even if I have 20 dedicated D* fans blasting me back.
> If you read my posts you would see I said I am happy for those who like it the way it is, but since I am not a huge sports fan it really is not all that well suited for my needs. Putting everything else to one side, the most unfriendly part of it is the need to remember to turn the thing ON. Just wait, it will catch you one day and you will remember I said so Drew.


Huh? What is this "blind follower" business? 

Also, what does sports have to do with surfing channels?

You watch a movie on tuner 1.
You want to see what else is on while not losing your place in a movie.
Hit PAUSE.
Hit DOWN. The tuners swap.
Tune to 202, CNN.
Tune to 360, Fox news.
You're done surfing.
You hit DOWN again and are back at your movie, and it resumes where you left it.

This is DoublePlay. It's the ability to watch two buffered tuners at once, up to 90 minutes per tuner. It retains the PAUSE position on each tuners. It recalls the last 4 channels tuned on EACH tuner, so you can track up to 8 channels.

You don't need to be a sports fan to enjoy DP.

You just have a very different take on what is better than Dual Live Buffers, and it's one not even TiVo has. With DP you have options TiVo never thought of, but you just need to launch the feature to use it.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I agree, my idea is not the Tivo way, it's a different approach, I want DLB to just be totaly transparent in operation, I know that Tivo's is not, I am looking for something that I think is better but I will agree that my idea is not for everyone, as MicroBeta pointed out that other poster would not like my solution. So I guess the only part we can all agree on is that it would be great if it was On all the time and not require the Double down arrow.
Of course Directv Cinema throws that idea out the window.



Drew2k said:


> Huh? What is this "blind follower" business?
> 
> Also, what does sports have to do with surfing channels?
> 
> ...


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Agreed, it would not be good for him.



MicroBeta said:


> I refer you to this post as to why I think your implimentation would be bad.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2207580#post2207580
> 
> Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Agreed, it would not be good for him.


Who's him? 

I was talking about how I use DP which with a simple press of a down arrow works great. 

Mike


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

LOL my mistake, I meant you. It's late, I am tired, and still at work (9:15pm) time to get home and watch some recorded TV 



MicroBeta said:


> Who's him?
> 
> I was talking about how I use DP which with a simple press of a down arrow works great.
> 
> Mike


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

I don't know about everyone else, but I give. DP will not work well enough for dreadlk, even if you could turn it on just by thinking about it. That would take too much brain power. :grrr:


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> Let me ask you this, would you prefer DLB the way it is now or would you prefer a DLB that was always ON and always buffering the last two channels you where watching.


Even though you replied stating that you knew the difference between a channel and a tuner, you keep making posts that show that you don't. DLB, in just about any incarnation, is about switching and buffering between TUNERS. You keep throwing in the idea of switching and buffering between CHANNELS.

It seems to me the reason you started this thread and the reason wanting was better than having, is because you didn't understand the difference between the two.

Would I like your "idea" better than what DLB is? Don't know. Probably not. With DLB/DP, I can have 1 show with a buffer and 2 other shows that I switch back and forth between. I couldn't do that with your "idea". Or I can watch 4 shows without any buffer. Don't think I could do that with your idea either.

DLB works well for what it is. But it's not everything. Your unhappiness with the feature stems from the fact that you didn't know what it was supposed to be to begin with.

My "idea" would be for it to get me a beer every time I hit the down key, but I knew it wouldn't do that ahead of time, so I'm not disappointed.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> Is this thing on?!


My attention level is not more than 1 sentence per post Drew.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> ... time to get home and watch some recorded TV


Bet you won't be using DoublePlay for that ..


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I actually think this is a great conversation because it makes one thing clear... that no matter how you implement dual live buffers, someone will be unhappy. dreadlk says himself that his way is not the TiVo way, and for him his way would be better. 

I think we'd all like to live in a world where everything is exactly tailored for us. Personally I am constantly reminded that my world is one where compromise leads to the best outcome. For example, I don't terribly mind two extra button pushes to start DoublePlay, because I get two 90-minute buffers out of the deal. 

The great thing about this forum is we all get the chance to talk about our ideal situation, and DIRECTV uses this information (as well as other information) to improve the product.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

Why not just use the Previous Channel button like TiVo does?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

islesfan said:


> Why not just use the Previous Channel button like TiVo does?


The TiVo uses {DOWN ARROW} also. On the HR2x, {PREV} allows you to toggle between up to 4 channels on each tuner allowing you to surf on one tuner using {PREV} while keeping the other tuner's buffer intact.

Besides, {DOWN ARROW} toggles tuners while {PREV} toggles channels. They are not the same thing.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

With DoublePlay, you have two independent previous channel lists, one for each buffer. You could argue that this is an improvement over other manufacturers' dual buffer implementations.

(note: That's two posts that Doug's beat me to... I've got to try harder )


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

islesfan said:


> Why not just use the Previous Channel button like TiVo does?


Already asked and answered. (I just didn't realize how many times!)

The Previous key changes the channel but keeps you on the same tuner. Thus you end up with 4 (?) channels among which to switch.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

islesfan said:


> Why not just use the Previous Channel button like TiVo does?


Because the DirecTV HDDVR+ and the new HD DirecTivo(coming in 2010) are going to be 2 different HDDVRs that are designed and maintained by 2 different companies the HDDVR+ is DirecTVs,the new HD DirecTivo is Tivos.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> Already asked and answered. (I just didn't realize how many times!)
> 
> The Previous key changes the channel but keeps you on the same tuner. Thus you end up with 4 (?) channels among which to switch.


If you use the yellow button to bring up the previous channels it's more like 6 or 8 I believe.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> If you use the yellow button to bring up the previous channels it's more like 6 or 8 I believe.


Each tuner will independently track the four most recently tuned channels so it's 8 total, counting both tuners.

Putting it all together:

DOWN toggles between the two tuners.

PREV toggles between the two most recent channels on a single tuner.

YELLOW then SELECT cycles between the 4 most recent channels on a single tuner. (The nice thing is the Options box stays open so the user can just continue to hit SELECT to cycle the channels on this tuner.)


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> Because the DirecTV HDDVR+ and the new HD DirecTivo(coming in 2010) are going to be 2 different HDDVRs that are designed and maintained by 2 different companies the HDDVR+ is DirecTVs,the new HD DirecTivo is Tivos.


Are you sure? I haven't seen any info to confirm or deny that. For all we know, it could be a software update, much like Comcast does.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I actually think this is a great conversation because it makes one thing clear... that no matter how you implement dual live buffers, someone will be unhappy. dreadlk says himself that his way is not the TiVo way, and for him his way would be better.
> 
> I think we'd all like to live in a world where everything is exactly tailored for us. Personally I am constantly reminded that my world is one where compromise leads to the best outcome. For example, I don't terribly mind two extra button pushes to start DoublePlay, because I get two 90-minute buffers out of the deal.
> 
> The great thing about this forum is we all get the chance to talk about our ideal situation, and DIRECTV uses this information (as well as other information) to improve the product.


True...

And this is also why I really like the DirecTV deal with TIVO to produce an HDDVR based on their software (and maybe hardware as well). So now sometime hopefully in the first months of 2010 those who chronically complain and are seemingly never satisfied with anything DirecTV has done with their in house DVRs since the appearance of the first R15 will have someplace else to turn.

Then thereafter should they not be satisfied with DirecTV or TIVO's DVR implementations then they're simply beyond help and DirecTV satellite is just not for them and they need to move on to another service provider (dish, cable, etc.)


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

Can someone please briefly list the background functions DirecTV needs to be able to perform requiring the two-hour turnoff of DLB?

Thanks.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> Let me ask you this, would you prefer DLB the way it is now or would you prefer a DLB that was always ON and always buffering the last two channels you where watching.
> 
> Accidentally have a remote button pressed, no problem just hit Prev channel and your back.
> 
> ...


No I don't care if it's not always on because I don't care what is buffering when I'm not watching TV. When I want to watch TV I turn it on when I want to use it.

You're not describing DP or even DLB. This is made to watch 2 different channels at the same time. It's not made to cover you if you press a button wrong. It's made so you can swap tuners and watch different channels on each tuner. Changing the channel incorrectly would not help you with any system setup for DLB because it assumes you know how to manage your tuners. It doesn't automatically change one of the tuners to the new station. If I had show A on Tuner 1 and show b on Tuner 2 no matter if I did press a wrong button I would lose the buffer on one of those shows.

Your CNN analogy is exactly what DP is. You toggle the tuner to the other tuner and have it on CNN. When you want to swap back to toggle back to the other tuner which is still on the original channel. The only difference is you think it should be the prev button instead of the down arrow.

You seem to think that if it was always on it would save you. Well then turn it on when you start watching TV. You press down 2 times and you're done.

Just out of curiosity how much time have you spent using this? The things you seem to want are already possible if you use it correctly. Other then pressing remote control buttons in error and the day a machine can stop humans from making any errors is a day to fear.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Jon J said:


> Can someone please briefly list the background functions DirecTV needs to be able to perform requiring the two-hour turnoff of DLB?
> 
> Thanks.


Other then what's already been posted, I'm not sure anyone can give you a complete list of functions for the background tuner. I suspect the major use is pushed content. I bet the majority of what it's used for is based on creating/maintaining a revenue stream (which would keep our costs down). Anything else might be speculation...I think. :grin:

Mike


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Jon J said:


> Can someone please briefly list the background functions DirecTV needs to be able to perform requiring the two-hour turnoff of DLB?
> 
> Thanks.


All of the known ones have been posted in this thread already.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Jhon69 said:


> Because the DirecTV HDDVR+ and the new HD DirecTivo(coming in 2010) are going to be 2 different HDDVRs that are designed and maintained by 2 different companies the HDDVR+ is DirecTVs,the new HD DirecTivo is Tivos.


I would be guessing here but I suspect there will not be a huge difference in functionality. Being able to keep track of eight most recently accessed channels could be tough to beat anyway...IMO. 

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jon J said:


> Can someone please briefly list the background functions DirecTV needs to be able to perform requiring the two-hour turnoff of DLB?
> 
> Thanks.


Perhaps you could list the reasons on why it should be left on all of the time.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jon J said:


> Can someone please briefly list the background functions DirecTV needs to be able to perform requiring the two-hour turnoff of DLB?
> 
> Thanks.


As for an answer to this question, check out posts #69 & #74 right here in this very thread.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Are you sure? I haven't seen any info to confirm or deny that. For all we know, it could be a software update, much like Comcast does.


If it is the HDDVR will still be maintained by separate companies.Tivo service is to be a Premium HDDVR service fee meaning it's going to cost more than $6. monthly.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

To be clear, I don't think anyone knows what cost the TiVo will have, initially or monthly. Also, we have a separate thread for the future TiVo product, this is not it. Please confine this thread to discussion of DoublePlay.


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## whitepelican (May 9, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Perhaps you could list the reasons on why it should be left on all of the time.


I could give my answer to this. My wife does this with the Tivo nearly every night: Turns on TV, sees what show is currently on live TV, if she's not interested in that program, she then flips to the other tuner to see what show is already being buffered there. Very often this ends up with her rewinding back through the buffer to the start of that program to view the program in its entirety. Since most of our programs are recorded from only a handful of channels, it's likely that the background tuner will always be sitting there buffering a program from one of the channels we tend to watch often.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

And ironically, the very first thing we do when we turn on the TV is change the channel to avoid spoiling something that might be recording. Not only that but I often change the channel to something I want to buffer in the future, not something I want buffered in the past. 

I accept that the way you use your DVR is valid, I ask that you accept the same of the way I use the DVR.


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## whitepelican (May 9, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I accept that the way you use your DVR is valid, I ask that you accept the same of the way I use the DVR.


I was just trying to point out that there is a practical reason why someone might want the background tuner to always be actively buffering. I have no dog in this fight as I no longer even have an active HR2x.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

whitepelican said:


> I could give my answer to this. My wife does this with the Tivo nearly every night: Turns on TV, sees what show is currently on live TV, if she's not interested in that program, she then flips to the other tuner to see what show is already being buffered there. Very often this ends up with her rewinding back through the buffer to the start of that program to view the program in its entirety. Since most of our programs are recorded from only a handful of channels, it's likely that the background tuner will always be sitting there buffering a program from one of the channels we tend to watch often.


And this is the one situation where this implementation will not give her what she wants. We've been calling it random content. Of course, since your wife only watches a few channels, there's a larger chance that that random content will be interesting.

Since she has the TiVo this works for her. If she should ever be in the situation where she had the DirecTV HD DVR, here's a workaround. Go to the guide in the morning. Cursor to the channel number she likes. Press Info. She'll see all the shows for that day. She can press record on any that look interesting. Voila, she has shows to watch whenever she turns on the DVR. If she only has a few channels that she likes, shouldn't take but a few minutes. She might even catch some shows that she would like that aren't on when she can watch TV.

She can do this now with the TiVo. She might want to try it. It may give her more of the types of shows that she likes the most. She won't have to settle for just something that's on that is interesting.


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## whitepelican (May 9, 2007)

DogLover said:


> She can do this now with the TiVo. She might want to try it. It may give her more of the types of shows that she likes the most. She won't have to settle for just something that's on that is interesting.


Tivo Suggestions actually takes care of this situation quite nicely. But for some reason she still likes watching live TV every now and then.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

whitepelican said:


> I could give my answer to this. My wife does this with the Tivo nearly every night: Turns on TV, sees what show is currently on live TV, if she's not interested in that program, she then flips to the other tuner to see what show is already being buffered there. Very often this ends up with her rewinding back through the buffer to the start of that program to view the program in its entirety. Since most of our programs are recorded from only a handful of channels, it's likely that the background tuner will always be sitting there buffering a program from one of the channels we tend to watch often.


Now there is 90 minutes in the foreground buffer (instead of the 30 minutes). Isn't it just as likely there is interesting content on the foreground tuner? That hasn't gone away. You make it sound like it's more likely the background tuner would have interesting content than the foreground tuner.


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## whitepelican (May 9, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Now there is 90 minutes in the foreground buffer (instead of the 30 minutes). Isn't it just as likely there is interesting content on the foreground tuner? That hasn't gone away. You make it sound like it's more likely the background tuner would have interesting content than the foreground tuner.


Yes, "just as likely". I would say it is exactly as likely that the foreground and background tuners would have something I would want to watch. Which means that the Tivo method of DLB gives you double the chance to catch something you want to watch when you first turn on the TV. I should point out that my DirecTivo units have been slightly modified, so I've had dual 90-minute (or 120-minute) buffers for many years now.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Ah, there's the rub; there's no reason to believe that a DIRECTV-based TiVo DVR would support any hack at all, including the ability to increase the buffers. At any rate, as I said we do have a thread for TiVo prognostication.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

whitepelican said:


> ... Very often this ends up with her rewinding back through the buffer to the start of that program to view the program in its entirety...


If it's a hour-long program, she'd be more likely to get all of it if she simply pressed Record. The true size of the buffer is usually ~43 minutes. And she'd capture an extra minute by not waiting for that FFx3 (backwards) to complete.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Now there is 90 minutes in the foreground buffer (instead of the 30 minutes). Isn't it just as likely there is interesting content on the foreground tuner? That hasn't gone away. You make it sound like it's more likely the background tuner would have interesting content than the foreground tuner.


It's twice as likely that something would be on one of the tuners if there are two active tuners instead of one. It's also twice as likely something would be on if the tuners were 90 minutes long (average program is 45 minutes). The tie breaker is content -- with Tivo, one tuner could be on a kid's channel and the other could be on something for adults.

I don't use DB on Tivo like that, as I don't trust it to stay on the channel. But many people I know do. And I gave up arguing with them a long time ago. That's just how they like to use the DVR.

So DoublePlay isn't quite as flexible as a typical dual buffer implementation. So some people won't like it as much. But it's 90 minutes deep which is better than average.


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

Doug Brott said:


> As for an answer to this question, check out posts #69 & #74 right here in this very thread.


Thank you. Those appear to be double play features rather than reasons DirecTV needs total control of the DVR at a particular time. Guess I'm just too dense.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Jon J said:


> Thank you. Those appear to be double play features rather than reasons DirecTV needs total control of the DVR at a particular time. Guess I'm just too dense.


The #1 reason is so that D* can push pay-for content to your DVR.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

ATARI said:


> The #1 reason is so that D* can push pay-for content to your DVR.


As well as other "housekeeping" functions.

Some of which include:

Guide data processing
Series Link processing
Disk defragmentation [Maybe, don't know for sure]
And so on...


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## n-spring (Mar 6, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> The TiVo uses {DOWN ARROW} also. On the HR2x, {PREV} allows you to toggle between up to 4 channels on each tuner allowing you to surf on one tuner using {PREV} while keeping the other tuner's buffer intact.
> 
> Besides, {DOWN ARROW} toggles tuners while {PREV} toggles channels. They are not the same thing.


This was never made clear to me during CE testing, so I found DLB confusing and I gave up. I never owned a TiVO unit prior to owning the HR20, so I never knew what I was missing in the first place.

Which brings up a point. How is DirecTV planning to let folks know this feature exists, and more importantly, explain how to use it? I don't know about the rest of you, but the owner's manual I have for my HR20 is the one that came with it.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I think that you do not have a clue of how a tuner and a slected channel are related, I think if you think about it you will realize what I am saying, if you still dont have an idea then let me know and I will explain.



spartanstew said:


> Even though you replied stating that you knew the difference between a channel and a tuner, you keep making posts that show that you don't. DLB, in just about any incarnation, is about switching and buffering between TUNERS. You keep throwing in the idea of switching and buffering between CHANNELS.
> 
> It seems to me the reason you started this thread and the reason wanting was better than having, is because you didn't understand the difference between the two.
> 
> ...


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

No, even if I had turned it on this morning, the two hours have passed and it's now off 



Doug Brott said:


> Bet you won't be using DoublePlay for that ..


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> No, even if I had turned it on this morning, the two hours have passed and it's now off


It will stay active for longer then two hours. As long as your using the remote it stays active. Once you quit using the remote it then starts counting down to inactivity.

Mike


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I agree with you Stuart, that's why it would be nice if Directv would actually put some controls in the setup menu that would allow people to customize the HR2X to suit there needs.

If I never intend to buy PPV movies then why not allow the me to turn off all the things that make PPV better and let me re-assign them to make other things better, like getting back 15-20% of my Hard Drive space and a DLB that's always ON.



Stuart Sweet said:


> I actually think this is a great conversation because it makes one thing clear... that no matter how you implement dual live buffers, someone will be unhappy. dreadlk says himself that his way is not the TiVo way, and for him his way would be better.
> 
> I think we'd all like to live in a world where everything is exactly tailored for us. Personally I am constantly reminded that my world is one where compromise leads to the best outcome. For example, I don't terribly mind two extra button pushes to start DoublePlay, because I get two 90-minute buffers out of the deal.
> 
> The great thing about this forum is we all get the chance to talk about our ideal situation, and DIRECTV uses this information (as well as other information) to improve the product.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> I think that you do not have a clue of how a tuner and a slected channel are related, I think if you think about it you will realize what I am saying, if you still dont have an idea then let me know and I will explain.


I think Spartanstew has it right...that is unless you know something we don't.

Enlighten us. Please Explain?

Mike


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

You do know that this is so just because D* decided to implement it that way, they could just as easily written the software and may even do so at a letter date to use the Tuners in a completely different manner. I suspect that if Tivo does make software for the HR2X that they will not be doing things this way.



Doug Brott said:


> The TiVo uses {DOWN ARROW} also. On the HR2x, {PREV} allows you to toggle between up to 4 channels on each tuner allowing you to surf on one tuner using {PREV} while keeping the other tuner's buffer intact.
> 
> Besides, {DOWN ARROW} toggles tuners while {PREV} toggles channels. They are not the same thing.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

n-spring said:


> Which brings up a point. How is DirecTV planning to let folks know this feature exists, and more importantly, explain how to use it? I don't know about the rest of you, but the owner's manual I have for my HR20 is the one that came with it.


It was a whole page in the newsletter in my bill this month including how to use it. I believe I may have gotten an email on it as well a week or so ago but I can't be sure on that one.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

The one thing I would love to see with DP as it is now is let us get rid of the darn nag screen. I hit the down arrow, therefore I want to start DP. I know this, I don't need to be told I am about to do it. And I sure don't need to know that I just did. That should be a user selectable option much like the ability to turn off the "are you sure you want to delete" is in Windows or any other computer OS. 

That is about the only thing I think is worse than the TiVo implementation. I can live with the timeout. Chances are that it will never time out while I am actively watching TV. And if it does, whatever was on the background was not that important to begin with.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> I think Spartanstew has it right...that is unless you know something we don't.
> 
> Enlighten us. Please Explain?
> 
> Mike


A Tuner can see across the whole spectrum of channels, on any given polarity and lnb array. Once the tuner outputs the DC voltage to select the appropriate polarity and a 22 KHZ signal to indicate which bank of LNB's it wants the signal from the tuner then has complete access to hundreds of channels on that array which will span from approx 500+ MHZ to about 2150 MHZ. that encompasses the Ka Low, KU and Ka High. There are basically 4 different arrays that each tuner can access, each giving it aprox 1/4 of the available channels. Now each channel is selected by doing a secondary IF mix, hence like a Radio the Tuner tunes to a particular frequency within the Band that the array is feeding it and then decodes that channels digital data from the others, each IF frequency that is tuned in contains several channels within the BW. The details of how they have setup their software and Hardware to do this are not known to me but there are several methods they can use depending on what they want to do.

By having two separate Tuners you can see 1/2 of all the available channels between the two of them at any one time and you can buffer with any tuner any selected channel on that array or even multiple channels on that array if there IF frequency is the same as other channels on that transponder, this is limited depending on CPU speed etc. and the goals of the software being written.

If you change the Tuners DC voltage or it's 22 KHZ signal you in fact will lose that array and will be on another array of channels, therefore one cannot record with one Tuner from two different channel arrays but that's about the only limitation that exists with the LNBF's and tuners used by D*. The rest really comes down to there hardware and software, hence anything that you might be thinking is fixed in stone can be changed if they rewrite the firmware to do it, just as long as they don't try to use one tuner to simultaneously access two different arrays of LNB's.

BTW just to mess with your notion of what's going on, you can actually use one cable and feed two tuners and watch two separate channels, record two separate channels etc from just one cable! And I am not talking about a SWM installation. All you need to do is use a dual one port power passing splitter. If you connect the two output ports one to each tuner and then the input of the splitter to just one cable from your dish you will be able to access the same array of channels on Tuner 2 as you can on Tuner 1. That is the only major limitation is that the power passing tuner dictates which of the 4 arrays that the other tuner can access.

Now Jeez if you want me to say that a channel is like 204 CNN and a tuner input is the LNBF connector on the back of the DVR then I can say that.

Good Night Folks, I get to go home early today


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> The one thing I would love to see with DP as it is now is let us get rid of the darn nag screen. I hit the down arrow, therefore I want to start DP. I know this, I don't need to be told I am about to do it. And I sure don't need to know that I just did. That should be a user selectable option much like the ability to turn off the "are you sure you want to delete" is in Windows or any other computer OS.
> 
> That is about the only thing I think is worse than the TiVo implementation. I can live with the timeout. Chances are that it will never time out while I am actively watching TV. And if it does, whatever was on the background was not that important to begin with.


This is just a guess but I suspect that until it's rolled out nationally AND is documented in the manual, it's going to stay this way.

Just a theory. :grin:

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> No, even if I had turned it on this morning, the two hours have passed and it's now off


Think you missed my point .. No need for DoublePlay if you're watching a recording (in other words: not live)


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> A Tuner can see across the whole spectrum of channels, on any given polarity and lnb array. Once the tuner outputs the DC voltage to select the appropriate polarity and a 22 KHZ signal to indicate which bank of LNB's it wants the signal from the tuner then has complete access to hundreds of channels on that array which will span from approx 500+ MHZ to about 2150 MHZ. that encompasses the Ka Low, KU and Ka High. There are basically 4 different arrays that each tuner can access, each giving it aprox 1/4 of the available channels. Now each channel is selected by doing a secondary IF mix, hence like a Radio the Tuner tunes to a particular frequency within the Band that the array is feeding it and then decodes that channels digital data from the others, each IF frequency that is tuned in contains several channels within the BW. The details of how they have setup their software and Hardware to do this are not known to me but there are several methods they can use depending on what they want to do.
> 
> By having two separate Tuners you can see 1/2 of all the available channels between the two of them at any one time and you can buffer with any tuner any selected channel on that array or even multiple channels on that array if there IF frequency is the same as other channels on that transponder, this is limited depending on CPU speed etc. and the goals of the software being written.
> 
> ...


 I know all of this and I'm not sure you've got it all correct. 

What I don't see how it supports your version of how DLB should operate over how it currently operates. What am I missing?

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> A Tuner can see across the whole spectrum of channels, on any given polarity and lnb array. ...


Each tuner has access to all frequencies, thus all channels. Sometimes both tuners are looking at the same array of channels which is the fundamental point that seems to be missing here.

Each Tuner operates independent of the other .. Completely .. so there is no need to try and guess which "array" to pull from as the tuner just asks the multiswitch (or SWM) to give it the right array for the channel it's tuning into. Doesn't matter what the other tuner is doing at all.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

What it sounds like dreadlk is looking for is a feature whereby as you change channels, the DVR actually puts the new channel on the background tuner and flips tuners. The old background buffer is flushed.

Then when you change channels again, the same thing happens, now to the old foreground tuner. 

Some very tricky decisions are what to do with surfing? Does someone have to always go back to the previous tuner/channel/buffer to protect that? (Yuck!)

Does someone have to press record to protect the one channel and surf? (less yuck, but still yuck.)

What if the cat, child, lap jumper hits channel up/down a couple times before you can stop the insanity?

So far, I'm not seeing this form of "Double Play" as advantageous. Especially if all I'm trying to do is protect from accidental button pushes. I record those things. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Look no need for anybody to get pissed off about my comment, I am just saying that its just about as easy for me to press the record button and then do the whole trick play routine, the DLB makes it just a tiny bit easier but not as much as I was hoping for.
> 
> For those who like the way this feature is implemented, great I am happy for you.
> I was just imagining that it would be a little more transparent in operation hence it's not as great a feature as I thought it would be.
> ...


I hope they do NOT do the last thing. The DLB on the HR utilizes COMPLETELY independent buffers. That means you can have four channels on immediate demand through the down arrow and the previous channels. The previous channel does NOT flip buffers yet it will go to the previous channel for the buffer you are on.

I HATE the Tivo implementation because of that and because if you channel up or down through the other buffer, your buffers get messed up. The HR2x solution leaves the two buffers apart from each other. You can even buffer the same channel in the two buffers at different spots in the buffer. Like right now, I have one buffer on CH 2 live and the other on CH 2 30 minutes back. Try to do that with Tivo. It will blow its little mind.


----------



## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

dreadlk said:


> A Tuner can see across the whole spectrum of channels, on any given polarity and lnb array. Once the tuner outputs the DC voltage to select the appropriate polarity and a 22 KHZ signal to indicate which bank of LNB's it wants the signal from the tuner then has complete access to hundreds of channels on that array which will span from approx 500+ MHZ to about 2150 MHZ.


I don't have an iron in this fire but it doesn't work quite the way you are describing. A tuner can tune in only one transponder at a time.... And could have access to any of the channels on that single transponder at a time. The tuner has to pick which transponder to tune in and that choice is exclusive.

Your splitter idea would allow both tuners to work with one cable as long as you only want either Right or Left polarized transponders - couldn't do one Left and one Right at the same time.

I'm just sayin'!

Now back at it...

Edit... Ok - I think I may have just said what you said.... Time to back away from the computer and watch some TV!


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> I hope they do NOT do the last thing. The DLB on the HR utilizes *COMPLETELY independent buffers*. That means you can have four channels on immediate demand through the down arrow and the previous channels. The previous channel does NOT flip buffers yet it will go to the previous channel for the buffer you are on.
> 
> I HATE the Tivo implementation because of that and because if you channel up or down through the other buffer, your buffers get messed up. The HR2x solution leaves the two buffers apart from each other. You can even buffer the same channel in the two buffers at different spots in the buffer. Like right now, I have one buffer on CH 2 live and the other on CH 2 30 minutes back. Try to do that with Tivo. It will blow its little mind.


I'm not sure the OP gets the completely independent part.

Mike


----------



## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

I'm patiently sitting on the sidelines waiting to join this fray.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

jdspencer said:


> I'm patiently sitting on the sidelines waiting to join this fray.


You forgot your popcorn. :new_popco


----------



## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

Dang it, now I have a hankerin' for some.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> What if the cat, child, lap jumper hits channel up/down a couple times before you can stop the insanity?
> 
> So far, I'm not seeing this form of "Double Play" as advantageous. Especially if all I'm trying to do is protect from accidental button pushes. I record those things.
> 
> ...


Not to single you out, but due to your image you appear to have your hands full of kids and grandkids. This might make you more experienced at the remote assault you and so many others have described. I have heard several times now how this particular implementation of DP will help to avoid accidental presses by cats and kids, but mostly cats. Just to be clear, for my own understanding, I hope we are not sacrificing ease of use to avoid pet and child accidental use. 
Does this topic keep coming up as a second or third benefit, or is keeping the remote out of reach of little paws or hands the reason for these DP settings.

I just kind of need to clear my head of this issue, because it is brought up so often, and I would hope that would not effect the technical direction of this option.

I would recommend a clear plastic shield at that point. Like the ones that cover the knobs on stove.

Again Tom, I am not singling you out, you were just the last one to bring it up again.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Tom you got it 
Now I am not saying this is for everyone, but it does address the problem of accidentaly changing the channel, it allows people to switch back and forth when watching sports and if you want you can throw in the down arrow to lock a channel in if thats what you want. Now sure I agree it may not be as good as the current system when used for sports but it does create a transparent system for just about everything else and for sports people they can just press that Down arrow and lock that sucker in if they want.



Tom Robertson said:


> What it sounds like dreadlk is looking for is a feature whereby as you change channels, the DVR actually puts the new channel on the background tuner and flips tuners. The old background buffer is flushed.
> 
> Then when you change channels again, the same thing happens, now to the old foreground tuner.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

armophob said:


> Not to single you out, but due to your image you appear to have your hands full of kids and grandkids. This might make you more experienced at the remote assault you and so many others have described. I have heard several times now how this particular implementation of DP will help to avoid accidental presses by cats and kids, but mostly cats. Just to be clear, for my own understanding, I hope we are not sacrificing ease of use to avoid pet and child accidental use.
> Does this topic keep coming up as a second or third benefit, or is keeping the remote out of reach of little paws or hands the reason for these DP settings.
> 
> I just kind of need to clear my head of this issue, because it is brought up so often, and I would hope that would not effect the technical direction of this option.
> ...


I am very well blessed with kids, grandkids, and great grandkids.  And double blessing is most of them are very close.   (Was blessed with cats/dogs, but then I became allergic.)  

I agree, seems like if the problem is protecting a channel/buffer, there are better solutions than changing or another implementation of Double Buffering. 

Another simple solution is to slide the switch from DTV to AV1 or AV2 if you don't have those programmed. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

n-spring said:


> This was never made clear to me during CE testing, so I found DLB confusing and I gave up. I never owned a TiVO unit prior to owning the HR20, so I never knew what I was missing in the first place.
> 
> Which brings up a point. How is DirecTV planning to let folks know this feature exists, and more importantly, explain how to use it? I don't know about the rest of you, but the owner's manual I have for my HR20 is the one that came with it.


After your HDDVR downloads the new software and when you first press the guide button there is an announcement onscreen telling you about this new feature and how to use it.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I completely understand that and if by reading my post you did not get a idea that I know how these DVRs work, let me clarify further, I spent about 15 years repairing Satellite equipment, down to diagnosing and replacing every faulty IC, transistor and capacitor on receivers like Tracker V to 10's, Echostars, Drakes, unidens etc. The only reason I stopped was because the size of the components and density got so high on all the new stuff that I just could not see or solder anything anymore reliably, at that point I just stuck to installations.

The age of disposable electronics is alive and well and those movies that you see about a big disaster and nobody knowing how to fix anything are here right now. At this point I find it easier to just junk my own stuff rather than trying to screw around trying to find replacement parts and soldering them in.



MicroBeta said:


> I'm not sure the OP gets the completely independent part.
> 
> Mike


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> What it sounds like dreadlk is looking for is a feature whereby as you change channels, the DVR actually puts the new channel on the background tuner and flips tuners. The old background buffer is flushed.
> 
> Then when you change channels again, the same thing happens, now to the old foreground tuner.
> 
> ...


With DoublePlay you can set both tuners to the same channel,if you first tuner channel get's changed due to surfing,cats, kids you still have your second tuner's buffer intact.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

The LNBF's gives the tuner access to all of the band on that stack or array, it's the second "IF" stage that internally selects which transponder is being separated, if you re-read my post I state that.

As for the splitter, that's exactly what I stated, the tuner that is NOT supplying the DC voltage is a slave to whatever polarization and whatever parts of the array the other tuner has selected.



Mike Greer said:


> I don't have an iron in this fire but it doesn't work quite the way you are describing. A tuner can tune in only one transponder at a time.... And could have access to any of the channels on that single transponder at a time. The tuner has to pick which transponder to tune in and that choice is exclusive.
> 
> Your splitter idea would allow both tuners to work with one cable as long as you only want either Right or Left polarized transponders - couldn't do one Left and one Right at the same time.
> 
> ...


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

You will love it, unless you forget to turn it On 



jdspencer said:


> I'm patiently sitting on the sidelines waiting to join this fray.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

dreadlk said:


> The LNBF's gives the tuner access to all of the band on that stack or array, it's the second "IF" stage that internally selects which transponder is being separated, if you re-read my post I state that.
> 
> As for the splitter, that's exactly what I stated, the tuner that is NOT supplying the DC voltage is a slave to whatever polarization and whatever parts of the array the other tuner has selected.


Yep - sorry - I really shouldn't try to talk on the phone while reading and posting!


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

> =Tom Robertson;220916
> Another simple solution is to slide the switch from DTV to AV1 or AV2 if you don't have those programmed.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thank you for giving those that have, ... well, a complicated, or involved life, another option besides putting the remote on top of the fridge.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> I completely understand that and if by reading my post you did not get a idea that I know how these DVRs work, let me clarify further, I spent about 15 years repairing Satellite equipment, down to diagnosing and replacing every faulty IC, transistor and capacitor on receivers like Tracker V to 10's, Echostars, Drakes, unidens etc. The only reason I stopped was because the size of the components and density got so high on all the new stuff that I just could not see or solder anything anymore reliably, at that point I just stuck to installations.
> 
> The age of disposable electronics is alive and well and those movies that you see about a big disaster and nobody knowing how to fix anything are here right now. At this point I find it easier to just junk my own stuff rather than trying to screw around trying to find replacement parts and soldering them in.


Fair enough.

So let's ask the real question. Why would you want to reduce the functionality of DoublePlay just to protect against the accidental channel change? Why should we all get less functionality out of two tuners because you can't keep your receiver on the channel you want to watch?

You think people are mad about how DoublePlay works now, just tell them that every time they change the channel it will flush the buffer on the opposite tuner. :eek2:

Mike


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> With DoublePlay you can set both tuners to the same channel,if you first tuner channel get's changed due to surfing,cats, kids you still have your second tuner's buffer intact.


That's what I wrote (see below). Seems like a simple answer, doesn't it?



BubblePuppy said:


> If this is a major problem then all one has to do is activate DP and then put the same channel on both tuners.....problem solved. :grin:


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> That's what I wrote (see below). Seems like a simple answer, doesn't it?


It is.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> I hope they do NOT do the last thing. The DLB on the HR utilizes COMPLETELY independent buffers. That means you can have four channels on immediate demand through the down arrow and the previous channels. The previous channel does NOT flip buffers yet it will go to the previous channel for the buffer you are on.
> 
> I HATE the Tivo implementation because of that and because if you channel up or down through the other buffer, your buffers get messed up. The HR2x solution leaves the two buffers apart from each other. You can even buffer the same channel in the two buffers at different spots in the buffer. Like right now, I have one buffer on CH 2 live and the other on CH 2 30 minutes back. Try to do that with Tivo. It will blow its little mind.


I just did it with an S3, no problems. Are you guys comparing the 5-year-old DirecTivo to the HR2x's brand new feature? I would hope the HR2x would be better. But wouldn't comparing it to the latest Tivo be a better comparison? (granted, none of you have probably used one).

In the S3, the buffers are independent. And on all the time if you want. But they are only 30 minutes deep. You push the "live TV" button to toggle between the two. But if you change channels within a buffer, it will flush that buffer (too many complaints of "I changed the channel, why is it still showing the previous channel?").


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> I just did it with an S3, no problems. Are you guys comparing the 5-year-old DirecTivo to the HR2x's brand new feature? I would hope the HR2x would be better. But wouldn't comparing it to the latest Tivo be a better comparison? (granted, none of you have probably used one).
> 
> *In the S3, the buffers are independent. And on all the time if you want. But they are only 30 minutes deep. You push the "live TV" button to toggle between the two. But if you change channels within a buffer, it will flush that buffer (too many complaints of "I changed the channel, why is it still showing the previous channel?")*.


That's how my HDVR2 (DirecTiVo) did it. I think that's way TiVo always did it...I think. :scratchin

Mike


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## Sartori (Nov 15, 2008)

DLB, Having is better than Wanting!!

I'm liking it, hey, when you sit down for some viewing in the evening, just enable it and your good to go....


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

:rant:
I like DP, and yes I did have Tivo. I am getting tired of reading "Tivo did it this way, that way, this is not how Tive did it", get over it. If DP had been implemented before Tivo, everyone would be writing "this isn't how DP works...blah blah blah." We have dual live buffers, get used to work with how it is or continue to live in the past. I'm moving ahead.:rant:
I need more :icon_cof:


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> :rant:
> I like DP, and yes I did have Tivo. I am getting tired of reading "Tivo did it this way, that way, this is not how Tive did it", get over it. If DP had been implemented before Tivo, everyone would be writing "this isn't how DP works...blah blah blah." We have dual live buffers, get used to work with how it is or continue to live in the past. I'm moving ahead.:rant:
> I need more :icon_cof:


+1


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> :rant:
> I like DP, and yes I did have Tivo. I am getting tired of reading "Tivo did it this way, that way, this is not how Tive did it", get over it. If DP had been implemented before Tivo, everyone would be writing "this isn't how DP works...blah blah blah." We have dual live buffers, get used to work with how it is or continue to live in the past. I'm moving ahead.:rant:
> I need more :icon_cof:


I just ground a brewed some. :coffee

Mike


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> That's what I wrote (see below). Seems like a simple answer, doesn't it?


In fact that's what I had going on this morning had one tuner on one channel with DoublePlay and recording a movie on the second tuner!.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> I just ground a brewed some. :coffee
> 
> Mike


I just switched to 50/50 coffee.....now I have to drink twice as much.:lol:


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> In fact that's what I had going on this morning had one tuner on one channel with DoublePlay and recording a movie on the second tuner!.


I have switched channels, forgetting that I didn't activate DP......I just can't print the words that came out of my potty mouth.:lol:

But yea, just activate DP, have the same channel on both tuners, and if one (or a critter) accidentally changes the channels on one then there is a backup tuner. Also, DP stays activated just by using the remote for any reason, doesn't have to be just for DP use. I just can't imagine, that during the 2 hour activation window, that the remote isn't being used for something. Easy to remember: "Use it(the remote) or lose it(DP).


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> I just switched to 50/50 coffee.....now I have to drink twice as much.:lol:


that's some poor plannin' right there. :lol:


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## uscboy (Sep 5, 2006)

RACJ2 said:


> Because D* uses the inactive background tuner at night to download things like the "Top Movies". If it was always buffering, they wouldn't have access to do this.


Thank you for the grown up answer on why it has to work like this.

It was a simple enough question, people. Seriously.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> that's some poor plannin' right there. :lol:


The way I drink coffee, there isn't anyway I could drink twice as much. The only way to get more coffee is through a IV.:coffee


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

RACJ2 said:


> Because D* uses the inactive background tuner at night to download things like the "Top Movies". If it was always buffering, they wouldn't have access to do this.





uscboy said:


> Thank you for the grown up answer on why it has to work like this.
> 
> It was a simple enough question, people. Seriously.


Or anytime that tuner isn't being used, could be during the day. I never put my dvr in standby, but the background (unused) tuner still performs its house keeping.


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## DrummerBoy523 (Jan 9, 2007)

rccoleman said:


> It would be more so if it simply turned on automatically when you hit the down arrow. The double button press and "nag screen" to turn on a feature that DirecTV would like us to use is too "in your face". If they absolutely need to turn it off after some period of inactivity, fine. Just enable it automatically when I actually want to use it. If they want to display the nag screen once, fine. Just not every, single time. I realize that people think that this is just nitpicking, but it feels like DirecTV added a worthwhile and desired feature, and unnecessarily made it annoying to use. I'm a big fan of devices doing what I want when I ask them to, rather than having them second guess me *every time*.
> 
> What's the downside to "accidentally" enabling it? Additional nag screens later when a recording needs to occur on the "other" tuner?
> 
> Rob


My thoughts and my wife's thoughts exactly.


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

DrummerBoy523 said:


> My thoughts and my wife's thoughts exactly.


I do have to agree that a one button press is a tad better than a two button press, but for me, it is not a deal breaker nor a complaint creator. It is what it is, and my fingers don't get that tired that easily.:lol:


----------



## DrummerBoy523 (Jan 9, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> Nope, they're not kidding.
> 
> Once you start DoublePlay it's just a single button press just like TiVo.
> 
> Mike


the point is that you shouldn't have to START DP. It should start automatically/or being running all the time.

The first question my wife asked when I told her about it was "why should I have to start it?"


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

DrummerBoy523 said:


> the point is that you shouldn't have to START DP. It should start automatically/or being running all the time.
> 
> The first question my wife asked when I told her about it was "why should I have to start it?"


That question has been answered over and over again, ad nauseam. Moving right along......


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

DrummerBoy523 said:


> The first question my wife asked when I told her about it was "why should I have to start it?"


If you don't know that it's starting, then you might wonder where the buffer is, so the "DP has started" screen lets you know that.

The "Press down again" message gives folks the opportunity to NOT activate DP as sometimes people hit the down arrow accidentally with no intention of turning it on.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

DrummerBoy523 said:


> the point is that you shouldn't have to START DP. It should start automatically/or being running all the time.
> 
> The first question my wife asked when I told her about it was "why should I have to start it?"


As said in the following post, I think it will be that way for a while, if not permanent.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2209012#post2209012

Mike


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> If you don't know that it's starting, then you might wonder where the buffer is, so the "DP has started" screen lets you know that.
> 
> The "Press down again" message gives folks the opportunity to NOT activate DP as sometimes people hit the down arrow accidentally with no intention of turning it on.


hmm...

Lets see about this... First they're letting people know the buffer "appears to be flushed" and a channel change might have occurred. But they don't on a normal channel change. Perhaps they should add a "Channel has changed screen" too, at least based on this (interesting) logic.

Similarly, we save them from an accidental DP activation (which has absolutely no consequences, by the way) for their protection?? By this logic, shouldn't all channel changes, GUIDE, LIST, ACTIVE (which does have consequences...), and MENU invocations all have "Are you really sure screens?) Again, interesting (inconsistent) logic. 

My hope is that this is just a short-term education thing. After a couple hundred starts of DP, you'd think people know might get a sense... 

Cheers,
Tom


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> If you don't know that it's starting, then you might wonder where the buffer is, so the "DP has started" screen lets you know that.
> 
> The "Press down again" message gives folks the opportunity to NOT activate DP as sometimes people hit the down arrow accidentally with no intention of turning it on.


You mean they are giving people option of using or not using DP? <sarcasm>The horror!</sarcasm>

As sure as I am typing this, I know if DP was active all the time, some people would be complaining that they wish they had the option to turn it off.

Bottom line -- you can't please all of the people all of the time.

I don't have DP yet, but the implementation sounds fine to me. Hope I get it by Sunday.


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## gnahc79 (Jan 12, 2008)

Hopefully in the next iteration of DP, DTV could push the housekeeping et al tasks to the network connection if it's active....or did I just step into the CE zone :lol:.


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## whitepelican (May 9, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> The "Press down again" message gives folks the opportunity to NOT activate DP as sometimes people hit the down arrow accidentally with no intention of turning it on.


What possible reason could there ever be for not wanting it turned on?


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> Or anytime that tuner isn't being used, could be during the day. I never put my dvr in standby, but the background (unused) tuner still performs its house keeping.


Now there is something new I have never heard of? I have always heard to put your HDDVR in standby for housekeeping.


----------



## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

ATARI said:


> You mean they are giving people option of using or not using DP? <sarcasm>The horror!</sarcasm>
> 
> As sure as I am typing this, I know if DP was active all the time, some people would be complaining that they wish they had the option to turn it off.
> 
> ...


And now if you want DoublePlay off immediately you just do a System Test or go into standby for 5 minutes or no remote activity for 2 hours.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> Now there is something new I have never heard of? I have always heard to put your HDDVR in standby for housekeeping.


That is the best, fastest way to ensure housekeeping gets done. But not all situations are convenient for putting the DVRs in standby. For instance I have two that are serving a whole house distribution system and never know when someone will want to watch their channels.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> If you don't know that it's starting, then you might wonder where the buffer is, so the "DP has started" screen lets you know that.
> 
> The "Press down again" message gives folks the opportunity to NOT activate DP as sometimes people hit the down arrow accidentally with no intention of turning it on.





Tom Robertson said:


> hmm...
> 
> Lets see about this... First they're letting people know the buffer "appears to be flushed" and a channel change might have occurred. But they don't on a normal channel change. Perhaps they should add a "Channel has changed screen" too, at least based on this (interesting) logic.
> 
> ...


This could easily be resolved by updating the INFO Banner to include an alternative means of toggling tuners. Keep the current DOWN arrow approach as a shortcut, but add an option into the INFO Banner that will display the name of the program (and channel) on the other tuner, and if DP is not started, it will instead say "Start DoublePlay".

Add the following to the info banner and eliminate the "Press DOWN again to start DoublePlay" ... I think that would make folks happy, as it's one less keypress, AND it would be informative as the Info Banner shows more ... info.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

whitepelican said:


> What possible reason could there ever be for not wanting it turned on?


That's been answered quite a few times already in this thread ... "housekeeping", including but not limited to movie and showcase downloads.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

whitepelican said:


> What possible reason could there ever be for not wanting it turned on?


From earlier in this thread



Doug Brott said:


> Well, the low hanging fruit in this equation is DIRECTV Cinema. Without time to perform the operation, the list of new content would remain frequently static which is pretty much the way the TiVo operated. "anytime" access provides greater opportunity to DIRECTV to get this content onto your receiver.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

ATARI said:


> ... As sure as I am typing this, I know if DP was active all the time, some people would be complaining that they wish they had the option to turn it off...


Shirley you jest.

No one has ever complained about TiVo's two live buffers being on (almost) all the time. I believe you may be disconnected from reality -- but I hope you were jus' jestin'.


----------



## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

Where are the buffers when awakened? Same channel they were on when deactivated?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> This could easily be resolved by updating the INFO Banner to include an alternative means of toggling tuners. Keep the current DOWN arrow approach as a shortcut, but add an option into the INFO Banner that will display the name of the program (and channel) on the other tuner, and if DP is not started, it will instead say "Start DoublePlay".
> 
> Add the following to the info banner and eliminate the "Press DOWN again to start DoublePlay" ... I think that would make folks happy, as it's one less keypress, AND it would be informative as the Info Banner shows more ... info.


I like this!


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

whitepelican said:


> What possible reason could there ever be for not wanting it turned on?


Having gotten along without it for almost three years I see no need to have DoublePlay always on. So far I've only used it to keep track of two sports events simultaneously. I'm very happy with it as is.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Jon J said:


> Where are the buffers when awakened? Same channel they were on when deactivated?


It depends ...

After a restart, the background tuner is on 201, the Customer Service channel.

At other times, it will either be the last channel manually tuned, but can also be the last channel used for a scheduled recording.

This is why there's never a guarantee that the background tuner will be on a "known" channel.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> I like this!


From your mouth to ...


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Jhon69 said:


> Now there is something new I have never heard of? I have always heard to put your HDDVR in standby for housekeeping.


2 of my DVR's have never been in standby (for going on two years).


----------



## whitepelican (May 9, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> From earlier in this thread:
> 
> Well, the low hanging fruit in this equation is DIRECTV Cinema. Without time to perform the operation, the list of new content would remain frequently static which is pretty much the way the TiVo operated. "anytime" access provides greater opportunity to DIRECTV to get this content onto your receiver.


Yes, I understand there is a reason that DirecTV wants access to the background tuner. But there is no reason that a DirecTV customer would ever want to lose access to that tuner.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

It's probably a bit extreme to say "no reason." Apparently quite a few people like having the movies already downloaded to the DVR, and don't care a whit about dual buffers. These folks wouldn't have a problem sacrificing a buffer now and again. 

I'm not one of those folks, but their points of view are as valid as mine.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

whitepelican said:


> Yes, I understand there is a reason that DirecTV wants access to the background tuner. But there is no reason that a DirecTV customer would ever want to lose access to that tuner.


Thank you for clarifying your original question, which was answered with a reason why DIRECTV limits the amount of time it is turned on:



whitepelican said:


> What possible reason could there ever be for not wanting it turned on?


As to a customer, well, I lose access to the tuner when it is needed for a scheduled recording, but other than that, I can't think of a reason I would desire not to have access to it.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> ... As a customer, well, I lose access to the tuner when it is needed for a scheduled recording, but other than that, I can't think of a reason I would desire not to have access to it.


Well said, Drew! A lot of folks (like me) have been saying that. DirecTV, please give us an option to forego PPV/VOD. (That goes for searches & autorecords too.)


----------



## whitepelican (May 9, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> It's probably a bit extreme to say "no reason." Apparently quite a few people like having the movies already downloaded to the DVR, and don't care a whit about dual buffers. These folks wouldn't have a problem sacrificing a buffer now and again.
> 
> I'm not one of those folks, but their points of view are as valid as mine.


Good point. I'm not one of those folks, either. I've always looked at the PPV on DirecTV as an inconvenience rather than a benefit. I'm sure some folks feel exactly the opposite.


----------



## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

whitepelican said:


> I've always looked at the PPV on DirecTV as an inconvenience rather than a benefit.


 :joy:


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> Well said, Drew! A lot of folks (like me) have been saying that. DirecTV, please give us an option to forego PPV/VOD. (That goes for searches & autorecords too.)


Before you make me a poster boy of some sort (not that I don't have the looks, mind you!), keep in mind that with DoublePlay you do not lose access to the second tuner, as a simple press of DOWN twice will bring you there, so the user at any time can assume full control of the background tuner.


----------



## n-spring (Mar 6, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> It was a whole page in the newsletter in my bill this month including how to use it. I believe I may have gotten an email on it as well a week or so ago but I can't be sure on that one.


Hmmm. I have electronic billing directly through my bank, so I don't get a paper copy. I do get the newsletters via email occasionally, but they get lost in the noise. Guess I should start paying more attention.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

n-spring said:


> Hmmm. I have electronic billing directly through my bank, so I don't get a paper copy. I do get the newsletters via email occasionally, but they get lost in the noise. Guess I should start paying more attention.


 You are not alone, I have not had or read anything in 2 years from directv on my email notification of my bill.


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> Before you make me a poster boy of some sort (not that I don't have the looks, mind you!), keep in mind that with DoublePlay you do not lose access to the second tuner, as a simple press of DOWN twice will bring you there, so the user at any time can assume full control of the background tuner.


Yep, I realize that. I realize, too, that DoublePlay seems to have many advantages over the old DLB. (See, I can play nice with the kids across the aisle!)

But still I wish both tuners would be buffering most of the time, without my having to start up DoublePlay every time I start a viewing session.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Nice one Drew  This is a great idea.



Drew2k said:


> Add the following to the info banner and eliminate the "Press DOWN again to start DoublePlay" ... I think that would make folks happy, as it's one less keypress, AND it would be informative as the Info Banner shows more ... info.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

+1



whitepelican said:
 

> Good point. I'm not one of those folks, either. I've always looked at the PPV on DirecTV as an inconvenience rather than a benefit.


----------



## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Drew2k said:


> This could easily be resolved by updating the INFO Banner to include an alternative means of toggling tuners. Keep the current DOWN arrow approach as a shortcut, but add an option into the INFO Banner that will display the name of the program (and channel) on the other tuner, and if DP is not started, it will instead say "Start DoublePlay".
> 
> Add the following to the info banner and eliminate the "Press DOWN again to start DoublePlay" ... I think that would make folks happy, as it's one less keypress, AND it would be informative as the Info Banner shows more ... info.


this is nice, especially dumping the second button press everytime.
I would think this would be extremely useful and helpful.


----------



## kryg1171 (Mar 3, 2007)

I woke up this morning, read the message on the screen and was in heaven!!!!!

Finally, thank you D*TV and thanks again...


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

kryg1171 said:


> I woke up this morning, read the message on the screen and was in heaven!!!!!
> 
> Finally, thank you D*TV and thanks again...


Read what message? :scratchin

That you got the update or the DoublePlay message?

Mike


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I haven't started a poll in a while, so ... I just started one about the Info Banner and DoublePlay. Stop in if you have a minute! 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164532


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Wasssup, peeps?

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Wasssup, peeps?
> 
> BJ


Welcome...

Notice anything different. 

Mike


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Welcome...
> 
> Notice anything different.
> 
> Mike


Nope. Just the same people crying about the same thing that D* will never, _ever _provide them.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Nope. Just the same people crying about the same thing that D* will never, _ever _provide them.
> 
> BJ


Ok, I'm missin' it. What will DirecTV never _ever_ provide them....he asks knowing he probably shouldn't 

Mike


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Ok I want to love Double Play so I gave it a serious second test last night.

I am watching a movie on 505

I hit down arrow twice to activate it

I end up on channel 200, even though I never went to that channel all day and my existing amount of buffer on 505 is wiped.

I go back to 505 and press the down arrow once.

Each press of the down arrow sends me between 200 and 505, so it's doing its thing ok at this point and working the way it did the first time I tried it.

So now I am going to see if I can do the 8 channel tracking up and running

I pause 505 and change channels to 276

I press down arrow and I am back on 505 and the show is still buffered, I press it again and now I end up back on 276! Not sure but I kind of expected it to go to 200 but no Joy on that. I try all sorts of combos to see if I can figure out how to keep track of 8 channels but all I seem to do is get a confusing switch between 3 channels and only one seems to be buffered all the time, the second buffered channel seems to change depending on what Prev channel I select.

Ok so I figure I am missing something here, the first part of your example is exactly how I had it working but I need some schooling on how to keep track of 8 channels, 4 on each tuner so I can use this thing to it's full ability.

Can you lay out a step by step on this one using some real channel numbers. with 8 channels involved?

Thanks.

Thanks.



Drew2k said:


> You watch a movie on tuner 1.
> You want to see what else is on while not losing your place in a movie.
> Hit PAUSE.
> Hit DOWN. The tuners swap.
> ...


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

The yellow button (previous viewed channels) keeps track of the last four channels you accessed on the live tuner.

Swap to the other tuner and press the yellow button again and see the four previous accessed channels.

Keep in mind you still only have two tuners and thus two live buffers.

Mike


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Ok thanks, I will try that MicroBeta


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Ok, I'm missin' it. What will DirecTV never _ever_ provide them....he asks knowing he probably shouldn't
> 
> Mike


DLB of course. Not happening. Nope. Nada.

Sorry.

BJ


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

boltjames said:


> DLB of course. Not happening. Nope. Nada.
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> BJ


Umm, sarcasm, right?


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> DLB of course. Not happening. Nope. Nada.
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> BJ


So apparently you would like someone to argue the DoublePlay is DLB in it's new implementation. 

Fact is you lose. Yup. We Got It.

Sorry&#8230;end of discussion. 

Mike


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Holy Rod Serling Batman, are we now doubting the existence of the very thing we have been speaking of the last 10 pages in this thread?


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> So apparently you would like someone to argue the DoublePlay is DLB in it's new implementation.
> 
> Fact is you lose. Yup. We Got It.
> 
> ...


After reading his post history, I see what he is.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Can I assume your also a global warming doubter :lol:



boltjames said:


> DLB of course. Not happening. Nope. Nada.
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

sigma1914 said:


> After reading his post history, I see what he is.


 



armophob said:


> Holy Rod Serling Batman, are we now doubting the existence of the very thing we have been speaking of the last 10 pages in this thread?


 Nobody's doubting anything. Not even the guy who hasn't posted in eight months but once DLB actually works on the HR2x, he pops out of nowhere. 

Mike


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Nobody's doubting anything. Not even the guy who hasn't posted in eight months but once DLB actually works on the HR2x, he pops out of nowhere.
> 
> Mike


Whew, Sometimes I need to be sure I am not the crazy one. This happens more than twice daily, but I am good now.


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm amazed. . . and I'm using DLB / DP!!

Too bad bolt!


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

dennisj00 said:


> I'm amazed. . . and I'm using DLB / DP!!
> 
> Too bad bolt!


DP is not DLB, correct? If I'm reading things properly....

a. You need to initiate it.
b. It shuts itself off after a couple of hours.

So unlike my old HR10, I can't just come home after work and surprise myself by finding I've got hours of buffered viewing on my two favorite channels. Is that accurate?

BJ


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Nobody's doubting anything. Not even the guy who hasn't posted in eight months but once DLB actually works on the HR2x, he pops out of nowhere.
> 
> Mike


It was quite an accident. I was actually trying to force a firmware update to my HR22 because after initiating wired networking to my router I still hadn't gotten my On Demand data pushed for 3 days when usually its within 24 hours (need help.....anyone?).

While browsing for the answer to that issue, I started reading about DP which is sort of close to DLB but not DLB. Isn't that correct?

BJ


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

boltjames said:


> So unlike my old HR10, I can't just come home after work and surprise myself by finding I've got hours of buffered viewing on my two favorite channels. Is that accurate?
> 
> BJ


Your HR10 buffered HOURS worth of info on both tuners?


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

boltjames said:


> While browsing for the answer to that issue, I started reading about DP which is sort of close to DLB but not DLB. Isn't that correct?


That's correct. To many, it's better than DLB.


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> That's correct. To many, it's better than DLB.


Can you explain why?

For years, the so-called "workaround" was not beloved because it involved many keypresses and didn't allow for spontaneous 'discoveries' of shows recorded on last-viewed-channels when one returned home.

Unless I'm missing something, DP is almost as involved as the "workaround" and shuts itself off after x hours of inactivity.

This isn't DLB-Lite. It's Workaround-Plus. No?

BJ


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

boltjames said:


> Can you explain why?


Answered many times in this thread already.

But to me, the greatest feature is having two 90 minute buffers. Many times when using DLB with Tivo and watching a couple of sporting events, I would run into the end of the buffer. Doesn't happen now.

As far as having it available when you turn on the TV, I can't answer that. In my 10 years of using DVR's, I've never needed a buffer on two random tuners when I first turn on the TV. And it stops buffering after 2 hours of any activity. If I haven't used my remote in 2 hours, I'm probably not going to miss the buffer on the other tuner, because not only am I not watching it, odds are I'm not watching the current tuner either.

Edit: And for the 100th time, it doesnt' require "many keypresses" over and above tivo. It's two button presses to activate (as opposed to tivo's ONE) and thereafter it's a simple toggle with no need to pause. So, worst case scenario, it's one additional button press for the entire time you're using DP. Best case, it's one fewer button press, every time you toggle.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Can you explain why?
> 
> For years, the so-called "workaround" was not beloved because it involved many keypresses and didn't allow for spontaneous 'discoveries' of shows recorded on last-viewed-channels when one returned home.
> 
> ...


Not involved at all. Hit the down arrow twice to activate. From there it's simply the down arrow to swap tuners just like TiVo. No need for recording anything; no need to go to the PlayList; just the down arrow. 

Mike


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Tastes Great.....Less Filling, Tastes Great.....Less Filling,Tastes Great.....Less Filling, Tastes Great.....Less Filling, Tastes Great.....Less Filling,Tastes Great.....Less Filling,Tastes Great.....Less Filling, Tastes Great.....Less Filling,Tastes Great.....Less Filling, Tastes Great.....Less Filling,Tastes Great.....Less Filling, Tastes Great.....Less Filling,Tastes Great.....Less Filling, Tastes Great.....Less Filling,

Sigh, this is probably why I could never be a moderator. I would have pulled the plug on this thread long ago. But then again it will just rear its ugly head again, so it might as well spill into this dump site instead of a new one somewhere else.


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Answered many times in this thread already.
> 
> But to me, the greatest feature is having two 90 minute buffers. Many times when using DLB with Tivo and watching a couple of sporting events, I would run into the end of the buffer. Doesn't happen now.
> 
> ...


First off, it's not the 100th time for _me _having not known about DP at all and having stumbled into this thread looking for a solution to my On Demand issue.

Right, so instead of the "workaround" hitting 'Record' and 'Confirm' you have the same 2 button presses and the unfortunate limitation of the timeout.

The "workaround" is the same amount of effort/thinking and has no limitations, so why the big party for DP?

BJ


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Not involved at all. Hit the down arrow twice to activate. From there it's simply the down arrow to swap tuners just like TiVo. No need for recording anything; no need to go to the PlayList; just the down arrow.
> 
> Mike


I'm just happy D* didn't cave to the whims of the few by instituting DLB. DP seems to be a nice compromise to what everyone really wanted. Nothing wrong with Workaround-Plus. WA+. I like that acronym.

BJ


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Give up guys....some people just don't get it.


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

boltjames said:


> First off, it's not the 100th time for _me _having not known about DP at all and having stumbled into this thread looking for a solution to my On Demand issue.


Did you read the thread you stumbled upon, or just jump right to the end to make sure your voice was heard?



boltjames said:


> Right, so instead of the "workaround" hitting 'Record' and 'Confirm' you have the same 2 button presses and the unfortunate limitation of the timeout.


No, it's not the same 2 button presses. And I see nothing unfortunate about the timeout limitation. How often do you watch TV and not use the remote for 2 hours?



boltjames said:


> The "workaround" is the same amount of effort/thinking and has no limitations, so why the big party for DP?


There's no effort or thinking involved with DP. You press the down arrow twice. If that causes you a lot of effort and/or thought, perhaps this implementation of switching tuners is the least of your concerns.

And you still haven't answered my HR10 question. Or is this more about making statements?


----------



## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

sigma1914 said:


> Give up guys....some people just don't get it.


Yeah...it's certainly not worth it.


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

sigma1914 said:


> Give up guys....some people just don't get it.


You're right sigma. They keep throwing out the bait and I keep biting. I think I'll head to deeper waters.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Some people just can't have an intelligent discussion. 

Mike


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I'm seeing a lot of angst-ful posts, but I'm not sure why.

Folks, there is a reason vBulletin created and this forum permits Ignore Lists. I'm just sayin' ...


----------



## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

boltjames said:


> ... For years, the so-called "workaround" was not beloved because it involved many keypresses and *didn't allow for spontaneous 'discoveries'* of shows recorded on last-viewed-channels when one returned home.
> 
> Unless I'm missing something, DP is almost as involved as the "workaround" and *shuts itself off* after x hours of inactivity. -- BJ





MicroBeta said:


> Some people just can't have an intelligent discussion.  -- Mike


Mike, how about intelligently discussing the point BJ made that I highlighted? No one has responded to it. Instead, everyone seems to be picking on BJ for not knowing how many keypresses DP does or doesn't require.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Ok I want to love Double Play so I gave it a serious second test last night.


I'll do my best to help ... Firs, may I ask is there a reason all of your posts start out with your response and THEN you place the quote of the person you are responding to? It makes following the flow of the conversation in a thread VERY difficult as often the response is very long and appears out of context with the post that precedes it ...

Now, back to the questions and DP usage discussion...



> I am watching a movie on 505


OK, let's call this Tuner A. It's currently the foreground (FG) tuner.


> I hit down arrow twice to activate it
> 
> I end up on channel 200, even though I never went to that channel all day and my existing amount of buffer on 505 is wiped.


OK, you went from Tuner A (buffering channel 505) to Tuner B. Tuner B was the Background Tuner but now it's the foreground tuner. Tuner A should continue to buffer 505, but since you are on Tuner B and just activated DP, there is no buffer there. I'm not sure why you ended up on 200.



> I go back to 505 and press the down arrow once.


You just tuned to 505 on tuner B, so now you should have 505 on both A and B. If you press DOWN you are going from B to A. B, the one you just left, should have hardly any buffer as you just tuned to it, but A should have a buffer as you were previously on it.



> Each press of the down arrow sends me between 200 and 505, so it's doing its thing ok at this point and working the way it did the first time I tried it.


 Cool. Next time you do this try playing around with rewinding on one buffer about half an hour and toggling with DOWN again, and notice that when you return you are still half an hour behind. It remembers your position and plays the background buffer in real-time when you don't pause it. 



> So now I am going to see if I can do the 8 channel tracking up and running
> 
> I pause 505 and change channels to 276
> 
> ...


I think the issue is that you tuned to 505 on both tuners very early on after activating DP, so that may have thrown off your "testing". I'm going to try to work up a "test plan" for swapping tuners and changing channels to demonstrate how PREV works with the two tuners. As Mike said, there are four channels remembered per tuner, up to the 8 total, and you can cycle them using YELLOW > Previous Channels, so there's a lot you can do with it ...


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Mike, how about intelligently discussing the point BJ made that I highlighted? No one has responded to it. Instead, everyone seems to be picking on BJ for not knowing how many keypresses DP does or doesn't require.


Because he will just continue to naysay as usual. I choose not to sucked into that discussion because it will have no end. BJ has 50.5% of his total posts in the two previous DLB threads(and this one) making some outlandish statements. It was only after he was caught red handed contradicting himself that he suddenly stopped posting.

I tried to start a discussion with a quick little post to test the water and he immediately started with his old ways. I'm going to take the high road and not completely derail the discussion.

BTW, I am disappointed it's not 24/7. However, for 99% of what I used to use DLB for it meets or exceeds my expectations. The serendipitous discovery is lost until DP is activated but that's only the tiniest fraction of what I used DLB for.

Mike


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I'll be happy to discuss any DP / DLB point with mr Bolt

I'm using it as I speak / type!


----------



## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Wasssup, peeps?
> 
> BJ


Welcome home, BJ.

I've really missed your pointless banter.

And now that we have the D* version of DLB, it is even more pointless.

I'll be checking this thread everyday.

Please don't disappoint me.

:new_popco


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

ATARI said:


> Welcome home, BJ.
> 
> I've really missed your pointless banter.
> 
> ...


I would hope that instead of egging on people we will instead engage in civil, courteous and meaningful discussion about this new feature.


----------



## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> I would hope that instead of egging on people we will instead engage in civil, courteous and meaningful discussion about this new feature.


I think that Mr. Bolts appearance is a sign that this topic has reached an impass and should be mercifully put out of its misery. But I could be wrong. How about a poll?


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

boltjames said:


> First off, it's not the 100th time for _me _having not known about DP at all and having stumbled into this thread looking for a solution to my On Demand issue.
> 
> Right, so instead of the "workaround" hitting 'Record' and 'Confirm' you have the same 2 button presses and the unfortunate limitation of the timeout.
> 
> ...


Ok, lets really see why even your logic is faulty in the true sense of the word faulty...

Tivo DLB...

Steps...
1. turn on tivo
2. choose to watch live tv
3. down arrow to change buffers....

HR2 DP...

Steps 
1. Turn on HR
2. Press dwn arrow once to prepare
3. Press down arrow to activate

And once you get either of these units through these first three steps, both flip tuners with one button push... And no one is worried about the timeout if they are using the thing...

And the best part for me is that it actually keeps previous channels for each tuner separately, so I can keep on buffered, and switch between a couple other shows very quickly.. Something Tivo can't do with DP...

DP is better than DLB by Tivo, so you are right, its not the exact same.. Its far better.. And its definitely no workaround.. As for your obviously incorrect posts, I do have a workaround for them, and I'm sure I'll start using that soon...


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> Ok, lets really see why even your logic is faulty in the true sense of the word faulty...
> 
> Tivo DLB...
> 
> ...


My favorite part is that both buffers are 90 minutes.

What's also pretty cool is having access to the four previous channel changes(via the yellow button) gives you the ability to quickly swap between eight different channels (four per tuner). 

Pretty slick implementation even without 24/7. Goodbye cumbersome work-arounds and hello to my old friend DLB. 

Down Arrow/Down Arrow - Swap, Down Arrow - Swap, Down Arrow - Swap, Down Arrow - Swap...all day long if I like. 

Mike


----------



## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Can you explain why?
> 
> For years, the so-called "workaround" was not beloved because it involved many keypresses and didn't allow for spontaneous 'discoveries' of shows recorded on last-viewed-channels when one returned home.
> 
> ...


Actually, DP serves a purpose... one that DLB served. That's being able to watch two programs simultaneously. Pause one and go back to it later and not have to worry.

I never used DLB on my TiVo just to surf. That's what I have my remote for. If I want a surprise TV show, I'll pick 3 numbers and enter them on the remote and see what pops up.

I have no problem with DP. Once I activate it, as long as I keep switching back and forth, I have 2 great buffers, both of which are much larger than what TiVo gave me.

SO, starting Sunday, DP will be used on all of my HR's... so I can watch games in the family room at the same time on 2 units running DP.


----------



## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

I'd be a lot happier if I did not get the activate dp and dp now activated messages, other than that its fine for me.
the 2 hour shutoff after inactivity is fine for me.


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Just another reminder, DP will remain active as long as the remote is used for *any* purpose, not just for DP.

My advice, for what it's worth, "Don't feed the "critter.", then it won't keep begging for more.


----------



## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

I'll probably get slapped silly for asking this question, but...

When you activate the DLB feature, do you lose the buffer on the channel you are watching?


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Jon J said:


> I'll probably get slapped silly for asking this question, but...
> 
> When you activate the DLB feature, do you lose the buffer on the channel you are watching?


No you do not lose the buffer. 

Mike


----------



## FlyingmWY (Jul 12, 2006)

I got my first chance to use the feture last night. I thought it was great. My wife and kids had no problem getting it started and using it. I also thought it was good that when the R22 was powered off, it stayed active. 

Simple to use and I see some great sports viewing in my future!


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jon J said:


> I'll probably get slapped silly for asking this question, but...
> 
> When you activate the DLB feature, do you lose the buffer on the channel you are watching?


No, that's actually the point of DoublePlay (and DLB) .. Buffer the one you are currently watching and then start a second program and buffer it as well.

I suspect after a couple of weeks of use folks (that use it) will be real happy with DoublePlay.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

whitepelican said:


> What possible reason could there ever be for not wanting it turned on?


I just thought of another reason .. When you have DoublePlay turned on, there is a whole different set of conflict resolution pop ups. If you don't have DoublePlay turned on, these dialogs will not appear, but with DoublePlay turned on, there is no way to avoid them as you may want to cancel a recording in lieu of keeping both buffers active.


----------



## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

Doug...I posed the question because an earlier poster recounted losing the buffer on the originally selected tuner when activating DLB. I'm quite familiar with DLB having used (and still am) DirecTiVos but the earlier poster seemed to say that when he activated DLB and then actually switched to another tuner and returned, the buffer had been lost on the original channel. I must have misunderstood.


----------



## Hutchinshouse (Sep 28, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> No, that's actually the point of DoublePlay (and DLB) .. Buffer the one you are currently watching and then start a second program and buffer it as well.
> 
> *I suspect after a couple of weeks of use folks (that use it) will be real happy with DoublePlay.*


I agree. I'm one of the users that "rarely" use this feature. However, when I do use it, it works great. Came in handy a few days ago when watching a Dodger game.


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## pjsauter (Jan 6, 2008)

Still waiting for it myself, but am looking forward to trying it out on Sunday (if I get it by then).

I have to admit, I'm not quite clear on why "activating" it is causing so much angst. Am I correct in that, to use the dual buffers, you need to hit the down arrow anyway, but that the *first* time you use it for the day, you need to hit the down arrow twice? That doesn't seem very onerous to me, but perhaps I'll change my mind when I use it. And then, once I'm actively jumping back and forth and pausing, I won't have to hit "play," because it will automatically un-pause for me?

The big loss would be that, initially, I'll only have one buffer filled with 90 minutes of random goodness instead of two.

Of course, not having the TiVo experience, it's not really a loss (for me) because I never had the second random buffer. Then again, it sounds as if the TiVo only had 60 minutes of random buffer to begin with (albeit on two different tuners). So, if I happened to find a show or movie or something in the second buffer that I wanted to watch from the beginning but was an hour in already, the 30 minutes already buffered wouldn't really help me out.

Perhaps if I could always guarantee what channel the second tuner would be tuned to, that second buffer would seem more useful to me. Perhaps an option of "when not recording or performing housekeeping, always tune to channel XXX."


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

pjsauter said:


> I have to admit, I'm not quite clear on why "activating" it is causing so much angst. Am I correct in that, to use the dual buffers, you need to hit the down arrow anyway, but that the *first* time you use it for the day, you need to hit the down arrow twice? That doesn't seem very onerous to me, but perhaps I'll change my mind when I use it. And then, once I'm actively jumping back and forth and pausing, I won't have to hit "play," because it will automatically un-pause for me?


Correct.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jon J said:


> Doug...I posed the question because an earlier poster recounted losing the buffer on the originally selected tuner when activating DLB. I'm quite familiar with DLB having used (and still am) DirecTiVos but the earlier poster seemed to say that when he activated DLB and then actually switched to another tuner and returned, the buffer had been lost on the original channel. I must have misunderstood.


Anything is possible, but I suspect the situation was more likely an errant key press (changing the channel, using {PREV} instead of {DOWN ARRORW}) or a misunderstanding by the OP on how it is supposed to work. From my experience, DoublePlay works exactly the way you expect it to, but it may take some folks a bit of time to re-learn key sequences.

For folks that like this functionality, after a little refresher, it will be a great addition to the arsenal.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Anything is possible, but I suspect the situation was more likely an errant key press (changing the channel, using {PREV} instead of {DOWN ARRORW}) or a misunderstanding by the OP on how it is supposed to work. From my experience, DoublePlay works exactly the way you expect it to, but it may take some folks a bit of time to re-learn key sequences.
> 
> For folks that like this functionality, after a little refresher, it will be a great addition to the arsenal.


I agree. I just have to remember to activate it first or else....Doh!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

pjsauter said:


> Perhaps if I could always guarantee what channel the second tuner would be tuned to, that second buffer would seem more useful to me. Perhaps an option of "when not recording or performing housekeeping, always tune to channel XXX."


Yeah, some folks would like to have a "Home Channel" for buffering. The simplest way to do that I've found is to simply tune to the channel you want buffered when you are done for the evening.


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

Doug Brott said:


> Yeah, some folks would like to have a "Home Channel" for buffering. The simplest way to do that I've found is to simply tune to the channel you want buffered when you are done for the evening.


What if you set a middle of the night recurring recording for a few minutes on the channel you want as "home"? Would that work?


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Jon J said:


> What if you set a middle of the night recurring recording for a few minutes on the channel you want as "home"? Would that work?


Not sure, the recording would occur on the other tuner, not on the channel that you were last watching. I think to set a home channel you would have to tune to that channel, as you would to watch it live.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Jon J said:


> What if you set a middle of the night recurring recording for a few minutes on the channel you want as "home"? Would that work?





BubblePuppy said:


> Not sure, the recording would occur on the other tuner, not on the channel that you were last watching. I think to set a home channel you would have to tune to that channel, as you would to watch it live.


In my experience, most times (not always) when I start DP the background tuner is on the last channel I had the background tuner on. Even if I know that something has recorded on that tuner since DP timed out. I haven't really tracked it but I have found it does this most of the time.

With that said, does it always work like this? No it doesn't. I agree with BubblePuppy in that I don't think recording something will necessarily put the background tuner on that channel and keep it there.

From what I can remember, when it is on something other then where I left, it's been on my local channel 3; which is, BTW, my lowest channel number. That's where it has always been is after a restart.

Mike


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> In my experience, most times (not always) when I start DP the background tuner is on the last channel I had the background tuner on. Even if I know that something has recorded on that tuner since DP timed out. I haven't really tracked it but I have found it does this most of the time.
> 
> With that said, does it always work like this? No it doesn't. I don't think recording something will necessarily put the background tuner on that channel and keep it there.
> 
> ...


I do a lot of recording over night. When I turn on the tv in the morning, the channel that is displayed is always the one I was last watching, not the channel that I was recording, unless the two channels are one and the same. 
It seems inconsistency is the rule not the exception.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> I do a lot of recording over night. When I turn on the tv in the morning, the channel that is displayed is always the one I was last watching, not the channel that I was recording, unless the two channels are one and the same.
> It seems inconsistency is the rule not the exception.


Aggreed. It would definitely seem as if there is no way to put the background tuner on a specific channel after DP has timed out.

Mike


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> Aggreed. It would definitely seem as if there is no way to put the background tuner on a specific channel after DP has timed out.
> 
> Mike


Maybe now with DP in the mix, there is a legitimate arguement to be made for added 'Autotune' to the HR series. Just need to copy and paste the code from the H series.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I just thought of another reason .. When you have DoublePlay turned on, there is a whole different set of conflict resolution pop ups. If you don't have DoublePlay turned on, these dialogs will not appear, but with DoublePlay turned on, there is no way to avoid them as you may want to cancel a recording in lieu of keeping both buffers active.


That's probably the main reason they implemented DoublePlay instead of a more classic dual buffer approach. It cuts down on, but does not eliminate, the number of pop-ups that confirm it can change the channel for a scheduled recording or other "background" stuff.

D* probably uses that secondary tuner for background stuff more than Tivo does. Maybe even for more than they care to admit -- to say the box is dual tuner when you rarely get to use the second tuner is misleading. Hence D* calls it "DoublePlay" and not DLB.

If D* used a modem or Internet connection to download data like Tivo does, then that tuner would not be used so much and maybe a true dual live buffer implementation could be done. But I have a feeling that other tuner is reserved half the time for other uses. Pop-ups would be constantly coming up asking it if were OK to use the background tuner. DoublePlay just takes the tuner back after two hours.

For my use, DoublePlay would be adequate. But some will be disappointed because it's not a classic dual live buffer implementation like most of D*'s competitors have.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> For my use, DoublePlay would be adequate. But some will be disappointed because it's not a classic dual live buffer implementation like most of D*'s competitors have.


I suspect even those that think that will be disappointed will forget that they are disappointed after a few weeks of using DoublePlay.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> D* probably uses that secondary tuner for background stuff more than Tivo does. Maybe even for more than they care to admit -- to say the box is dual tuner when you rarely get to use the second tuner is misleading. Hence D* calls it "DoublePlay" and not DLB.


I like to think that they call it DoublePlay because I asked them to 

Seriously, though, it's called DoublePlay insteadl of Dual Live Buffers because DLB contains too much technical jargon. DoublePlay doesn't refer to the equipment at all and fits because you are playing double the programming.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Maybe now with DP in the mix, there is a legitimate arguement to be made for added 'Autotune' to the HR series. Just need to copy and paste the code from the H series.


Dragging up 4-year-old Tivo discussions (welcome to the 21st century!), some set a one minute recording late at night just to ensure that both tuners were on something in the morning.

But that won't work with DP.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

ATARI said:


> Maybe now with DP in the mix, there is a legitimate arguement to be made for added 'Autotune' to the HR series. Just need to copy and paste the code from the H series.


I'll bet my next paycheck that it's a hell of a lot more then copy & paste. 

Mike


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## PersistenceOfVision (Jun 5, 2008)

So is Double Play similar to DLB just with a timeout implemented?
When I get the upgrade is there anything I need to do to enable DoublePlay or will it just start working after the update?

Sorry for my ignorance.... I have read a lot of the posts related to DoublePlay but I have not been able to absorb these details.

Jason


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

PersistenceOfVision said:


> So is Double Play similar to DLB just with a timeout implemented?
> When I get the upgrade is there anything I need to do to enable DoublePlay or will it just start working after the update?
> 
> Sorry for my ignorance.... I have read a lot of the posts related to DoublePlay but I have not been able to absorb these details.
> ...


 :welcome_s
To activate DP, on the remote press the down arrow twice.
BTW: Never be afraid to ask questions.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

PersistenceOfVision said:


> So is Double Play similar to DLB just with a timeout implemented?
> When I get the upgrade is there anything I need to do to enable DoublePlay or will it just start working after the update?
> 
> Sorry for my ignorance.... I have read a lot of the posts related to DoublePlay but I have not been able to absorb these details.
> ...


Yes, aside from the time out, DoublePlay is the same as DLB.

It will already be enabled. All you have to do is press the down arrow. You'll get a message informing you that you're about to activate DP. Then you hit the down arrow again and that's it. From then on each press of the down arrow will swap tuners; both with a 90 minute buffer. 

Once activated, as long as you're using the remote (whether or not you're swapping tuners) it will remain active. Once you stop using the remote, two hours later it's off.

Hope this helps. 

Mike


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## snork (Sep 21, 2007)

Well, it has been more than a year since I last posted to DBSTalk, but always lurk.
I had actually completely given up hope for DLB, convinced myself that it was just technically impossible to implement on an HR20.
When Double Play was first mentioned here I was euphoric. I went through the excruciating wait while 34b/c rolled out, each day hoping it would be my lucky one. 
AH! Yesterday! I dutifully added my dot to the zipmap (Denver area).

In the spirit of the Subject of this thread, I'd just like to report that my actual reaction now that I have it was..."ho hum". Completely unexpected emotion I gotta tell you. This was one of those rare occasions when my wife was flipping out about a new gizmo and I just sat there. I suspect that my reaction has a lot to do with my resignation over the last couple years and learning to do without. I have no doubt though that Double Play will creep in and take over my life; perhaps the way I feel is a defense against the horrible possibility that this is just a cruel joke and will be ripped away from me when I least expect it, along with my heart.

Anyway, thanks to those responsible and thanks to all of you.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

I really don't get the complicated DLB. It seems like they just added the workaround to a menu option.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

islesfan said:


> I really don't get the complicated DLB. It seems like they just added the workaround to a menu option.


what's complicated?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Doesn't seem any more complicated than other DLB implementations, really. In fact, it suits me just fine.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

snork said:


> I had actually completely given up hope for DLB, convinced myself that it was just technically impossible to implement on an HR20.


It seems a lot of people have been thinking that the delay in implementing something like DLB (namely, DP) was purely for technical reasons. I believe the really hard part of the DP implementation was in figuring out how to satisfy the demands of the powerful marketing people, who needed to be sure DirecTV Cinema would still be able to get enough movies to rake in extra $$.


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## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

I was going to start a new thread with this idea but I think it fits pretty well in here. (mods move if needed). There has been a lot of discussion about DP's implimentation (how many button presses, forgetting to turn it on, etc) throughout this thread. As many of you know there are 5 or 6 buttons on the remote that will turn on an HR besides the actual power button. What if the down cursor was added to the list and besides turning on the box also triggered (first press) DP and the nag screen? The nag screen could be optional because if you turned on the box with the down cusor you want DP and you know how to use it. With the box turned on you could then activate DP with the down cursor (second press) or press any other button the way you would normally use the box which would eliminate the nag screen and take you where you wanted to go without DP. In short the cursor down/ power on button would eliminate one of the two presses for DP and with a nag screen first up (again optional) you would never forget to activate DP. If you don't want DP hit any button or let the nag screen time out. This idea sounded pretty good in my head which may not be a good thing. Tell me what you think. Any feedback would be welcomed. Edit: Possibly replace nag screen with Drew2k's info banner seen here, http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164532


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> It seems a lot of people have been thinking that the delay in implementing something like DLB (namely, DP) was purely for technical reasons. I believe the really hard part of the DP implementation was in figuring out how to satisfy the demands of the powerful marketing people, who needed to be sure DirecTV Cinema would still be able to get enough movies to rake in extra $$.


Why do you make it sound like a bad thing if DIRECTV rakes in extra $$. You're not obligated to buy PPV and by your own admission never will, but the fact that others do likely help keep your own bill down.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

islesfan said:


> I really don't get the complicated DLB. It seems like they just added the workaround to a menu option.


There are no menu options for simply swapping tuners. Once activated it operates exactly as TiVo did...press the down arrow to swap tuners.

Now if you want to have access to the last four channel changes per tuner, that would be a menu option.

Mike


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I'll do my best to help ... Firs, may I ask is there a reason all of your posts start out with your response and THEN you place the quote of the person you are responding to? It makes following the flow of the conversation in a thread VERY difficult as often the response is very long and appears out of context with the post that precedes it ......


Ok sorry about that, I will do it this way to make things clearer.



> Now, back to the questions and DP usage discussion...
> 
> OK, let's call this Tuner A. It's currently the foreground (FG) tuner.
> OK, you went from Tuner A (buffering channel 505) to Tuner B. Tuner B was the Background Tuner but now it's the foreground tuner. Tuner A should continue to buffer 505, but since you are on Tuner B and just activated DP, there is no buffer there. I'm not sure why you ended up on 200.
> ...


This works but I still cannot figure out why it seems to jump to some Random channel eveytime it's turned ON, worst yet it kills the existing Buffer on the show! The problem this creates is that if I am already watching a show I cannot turn on DP unless I am willing to sacrifice the ability to rewind the show to some point before I turned on DP.



> I think the issue is that you tuned to 505 on both tuners very early on after activating DP, so that may have thrown off your "testing". I'm going to try to work up a "test plan" for swapping tuners and changing channels to demonstrate how PREV works with the two tuners. As Mike said, there are four channels remembered per tuner, up to the 8 total, and you can cycle them using YELLOW > Previous Channels, so there's a lot you can do with it ...


I gave this a complete workout last night and I could not get DP to work as you described. If I use the yellow button it shows the last two channels including one of them that is in DP and a third channel that was previous to pressing DP.

E.g.

I start on 276
I go to 202
I press DP and turn it on
It flips to a random channel like 201, or 06 (lets say 201 for this example)
I press down arrow once
it flips to 202 and its buffered, press again and im back to 201 (buffered)
Press the Yellow button
Previous channels listed are 276 and 201.
I select 276 from list
Press down arrow it flips back to 201 (it's still buffered)
Press again I am on 276 (its just being buffered)
Buffer on 202 is now lost
Press Yellow button
Shows "No previous channels"

So basically I can play around within 201, 276, 202 but trying anything else eliminates one of the three and replaces it. So if I press 505 it will kick out one of the three and I end up with eg 201 276 and 505

I still cannot figure out what channel will be buffered if I deviate from the straight operation and use the Yellow button to select a different tuner.
(if it really does change the tuner)

*So can you please let me see a key press example that allows me to maneuver through 8 different channels using the DP and yellow button*.

If it's a case that the way this workes was a bit overstated, I understand, when I first turned it on I could have sworn that I could move through 4 channels but so far on repeated tests I cannot see more than 3.
I just want to stop pulling out my hair trying to toggle through 8 channels.

BTW I also found that there is some sort of bug happening with DP, because when I move to that third channel I see a Buffer (green line) on the screen for a split second and then it disappears and the channel is not buffered.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> There are no menu options for simply swapping tuners. Once activated it operates exactly as TiVo did...press the down arrow to swap tuners.
> 
> Now if you want to have access to the last four channel changes per tuner, that would be a menu option.
> 
> Mike


I think what he means is that it's kind of like a macro that just uses the record button, previous channel button and the Red button (delete) it seems to just use these while suppressing the recordings from showing up in the list.

I got that exact same feeling when I used it the first time and saw that somewhat familiar message come up that I could not record a show because double play was already active. (please turn off dp to free up a tuner for recording)


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Ok sorry about that, I will do it this way to make things clearer.
> 
> This works but I still cannot figure out why it seems to jump to some Random channel eveytime it's turned ON, worst yet it kills the existing Buffer on the show! The problem this creates is that if I am already watching a show I cannot turn on DP unless I am willing to sacrifice the ability to rewind the show to some point before I turned on DP.
> 
> ...


You can easily access eight previously viewed channels.

However, you still only have two tuners and can only buffer two channels at a time. There's no DVR that can buffer 8 channels...I think...pretty sure anyway.

All the yellow button does is give you access to the four previously view channels on that tuner. If there are a couple of channels you want to keep track of you can bounce between them on the same tuner...e.g. I can have one tuner bouncing between two different games while the other tuner buffers something else. Sports subs will really like this option.

To be clear, you can only buffer two programs at once.

Mike


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

To me it sounds like double play would more be a name for what the Echo units do in showing two different shows to two TV's on one receiver



Doug Brott said:


> I like to think that they call it DoublePlay because I asked them to
> 
> Seriously, though, it's called DoublePlay insteadl of Dual Live Buffers because DLB contains too much technical jargon. DoublePlay doesn't refer to the equipment at all and fits because you are playing double the programming.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> I think what he means is that it's kind of like a macro that just uses the record button, previous channel button and the Red button (delete) it seems to just use these while suppressing the recordings from showing up in the list.
> 
> I got that exact same feeling when I used it the first time and saw that somewhat familiar message come up that I could not record a show because double play was already active. (please turn off dp to free up a tuner for recording)


That message isn't there to tell you that you can't record something because DP is active. It is giving you the option to record on the live tuner, the background tuner, or to cancel the recording. If you don't respond because you're away from the TV it will record the scheduled program on the background tuner which is what TiVo would do.

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> To me it sounds like double play would more be a name for what the Echo units do in showing two different shows to two TV's on one receiver


I don't agree with that. Once it's activated it operates exactly like DLB did in the DirecTiVo.

Mike


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> I'll bet my next paycheck that it's a hell of a lot more then copy & paste.
> 
> Mike


I would bet mine that it's just that simple. All they need to do is copy the routine for timer recordings and cut out the 80% of code that does the actual recording and just make the unit change the channel at the programmed time and put that tuner to the forefront.

The only reason why they probably dont want to do that is because it's going to hijack a tuner and prevent two recordings from going on at that point in time. Of course they could just set the Autotune shows to the lowest priority but then that leads to a possibility of a 6 year old sitting down to watching Barney and suddenly have an R rated HBO show come up on the screen:eek2:


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

That may be so but I am just pointing out that he is correct in that it feels like a combination of existing subroutines being reused in sequence. I would bet my pay check that is exactly what they are doing because programmers alway try to reuse code rather than add more bulk to the existing code.



MicroBeta said:


> That message isn't there to tell you that you can't record something because DP is active. It is giving you the option to record on the live tuner, the background tuner, or to cancel the recording. If you don't respond because you're away from the TV it will record the scheduled program on the background tuner which is what TiVo would do.
> 
> Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> To me it sounds like double play would more be a name for what the Echo units do in showing two different shows to two TV's on one receiver


Could be used in that scenario as well .. But that's not what we're talking about here.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I suspect even those that think that will be disappointed will forget that they are disappointed after a few weeks of using DoublePlay.


For what it is it's not bad but it's not what I expected when I heard "Better than DLB". Now if they do a few mods it could be much better but they are going to have to sacrifice a few things to make that happen.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> For what it is it's not bad but it's not what I expected when I heard "Better than DLB". Now if they do a few mods it could be much better but they are going to have to sacrifice a few things to make that happen.


As much as I like having DLB back, I agree it falls short of "something better"...then again, maybe there's something else coming...maybe I'm grasping straws. :grin:

Mike


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

I'll be very interested in hearing feedback after this weekend's games. These are the meat an potatoes advocates of DP.

Since I watch practically nothing in real time, DP is of little significance to me, and I have no investment in this feature one way or another.

When the hard core users get their hands on the feature in a real-world environment, then we can get large scale user feedback, instead of a smattering of speculation, woulda, coulda, shoulda data points.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> You can easily access eight previously viewed channels.
> 
> However, you still only have two tuners and can only buffer two channels at a time. There's no DVR that can buffer 8 channels...I think...pretty sure anyway.
> 
> ...


I know you can only buffer two channels, what i am talking about is all of the talk about bouncing between 8 channels. I still have not gotten the Yellow button to allow me to "access the 4 previous channels" I can bounce between two different channels and buffer a third like you just said but thats what I also said, what I am looking for is an example of accessing 4 channels on each tuner while two are being buffered IMO so far it seems like three channels are the most I can fool around with.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> As much as I like having DLB back, I agree it falls short of "something better"...then again, maybe there's something else coming...maybe I'm grasping straws. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Yes I agree, I think we are grasping , I think D* is trying to squeeze as much as they can out of the hardware but I think when they designed these things they where not thinking of going this far.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> I know you can only buffer two channels, what i am talking about is all of the talk about bouncing between 8 channels. I still have not gotten the Yellow button to allow me to "access the 4 previous channels" I can bounce between two different channels and buffer a third like you just said but thats what I also said, what I am looking for is an example of accessing 4 channels on each tuner while two are being buffered IMO so far it seems like three channels are the most I can fool around with.


Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion or make it more muddy!!

The yellow button keeps up with 4 previous channels - actually three and the one you're on.

So on each tuner you could have 8 total / different channels. With DP enabled whatever is tuned in will be buffering. . . NOTany two of those eight.

So typically you might have an important program buffering on Tuner 2 and switch between 3 or 4 channels on Tuner 1 -- without affecting Tuner 2.

Just really good coordination of the down arrow / yellow button or prev.

I use it daily. And more on weekends!!


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

hasan said:


> I'll be very interested in hearing feedback after this weekend's games. These are the meat an potatoes advocates of DP.
> -
> snip
> -
> When the hard core users get their hands on the feature in a real-world environment, then we can get large scale user feedback, instead of a smattering of speculation, woulda, coulda, shoulda data points.


My feeling is that this feature should have been out from about 2 months ago. If people start playing with this thing on game day without a clear understanding that certain things will flush the buffer, they are going to be pissed to find that their buffers gone.

My suggestion is play with DP for a few days before trying it on mission critical shows


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

dennisj00 said:


> Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion or make it more muddy!!
> 
> The yellow button keeps up with 4 previous channels - actually three and the one you're on.
> 
> ...


Yep, I'll be giving this a test drive this weekend.

Tuner 2 will be on the Game Mix channel and Red Zone Channel
Tuner 1 will be used for surfing all the games. I get bored with the games I hit down arrow and get to the RZC quickly. Hit Prev and I'm on the Mix channel. Sounds pretty cool to me.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> ...
> E.g.
> 
> I start on 276
> ...


I think you may have stumbled upon a bug, dreadlk. I didn't try your sequence, yet. If it works like you posted, something seems to be amiss.

Try this and see what happens, when you get a chance.

Don't change channel before starting DP.
Activate DP - this should change tuner and leave you on 201 or another random channel.

Change channel on that tuner 3 times.
View yellow/view previous - there should be 3 entries. you can select one or not.
Press down arrow - this will change tuner and you should be on the channel you were on before activating double play.

change channel on that tuner 3 times - 3 different channels than before, just to be safe.
View yellow/view previous - there should be 3 entries of the 3 previous channels for that tuner.

From this point, you should be able to press down arrow and then yellow/view previous and see different sets of previous channels on each tuner.

---

If I had to guess from what you've written, changing the channel first, then going back to that channel on one of the tuners seems to be causing the problem. It shouldn't appear on the previous channel list with 201, it should appear on the previous channel list with 202. I would guess that it "sort of" knows that, and when you change to it using yellow/view previous, it is changing tuners, as well as changing channels.

If my scenario works for you, you should definitely log your scenario in the issues thread.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

dennisj00 said:


> Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion or make it more muddy!!
> 
> The yellow button keeps up with 4 previous channels - actually three and the one you're on.
> 
> ...


Thanks, but maybe I am just Daft. Can you lay it out for me in.
eg we use channels 202, 205, 276, 284, 294,501, 503, 505.

Can you lay out some steps like:

Activate DP
Go to 202 then 205 then 276 then 284 etc.
yellow button etc.
input more channels etc.
down arrow
etc.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dreadlk - I'm working on something for you ... Hope to have it up shortly...


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

DogLover said:


> I think you may have stumbled upon a bug, dreadlk. I didn't try your sequence, yet. If it works like you posted, something seems to be amiss.


Keep in mind that I am at work and I am trying to do this from the memory of events of last night, but I think most of it is accurate, it certainly is accurate that I could only cycle through 3 channels and not 8.

Thanks for your example, I am printing it out now and will try it when I get home. I will let you know how it worked out later tonight.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> dreadlk - I'm working on something for you ... Hope to have it up shortly...


Thanks. I think that whatever example works should become a sticky so that all the new users can benefit.

Leaving work now, will catch up with you later.
Thanks again.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

OK, here's a walk through of using DOWN to activate DoublePlay, and using PREV and the YELLOW/Previous Channel option to cycle through up to 8 channels, 4 per tuner.

Tracing through these steps should demonstrate that the buffer remains intact when swapping tuners, but when using PREV or YELLOW/Previous Channels to switch channels on a tuner the buffer is flushed.

Most people will be content to just press DOWN to toggle between tuners, and at most may switch between two channels on one tuner while never switching channels on the other tuner, but this demonstrates the full potential of DP with the independent channel tracking per tuner ...



* Step *
|
* Action *
|
* Foreground *
|
* Background *

1	|	Tune to 202	|	202 CNN appears	|	? Unknown
2	|	Wait 5 minutes so buffer fills	|	202 starts buffering	|	? Unknown
3	|	Press DOWN	|	Prompt appears: Press Down again to start DP	|	? Unknown
4	|	Press DOWN again	|	You just started DP and will see whatever channel was on the other tuner	|	202 CNN is moved to the BG tuner
5	|	Tune to 206	|	206 ESPN channel appears	|	202 continues to buffer on BG tuner
6	|	Tune to 212	|	212 NFL channel appears	|	202 continues to buffer on BG tuner
7	|	Press PREV	|	206 ESPN appears, the most recently tuned channel on this tuner	|	202 continues to buffer on BG tuner
8	|	Press DOWN	|	Tuners swap. You now see 202 CNN here and the buffer is intact	|	206 ESPN is now on the BG tuner
9	|	Tune to 209	|	209 ESPN2 appears, and buffer is empty	|	206 ESPN continues to buffer
10	|	Press PREV	|	You go from 209 to 202. Buffer is reset with the channel change	|	206 ESPN continues to buffer
11	|	Tune to 212	|	You go from 202 to 212. New buffer starts on 212	|	206 ESPN continues to buffer
12	|	Tune to 214	|	You go from 212 to 214. New buffer starts on 214	|	206 ESPN continues to buffer
13	|	Tune to 217	|	You go from 214 to 217. New buffer starts on 217	|	206 ESPN continues to buffer
14	|	Press PREV	|	You go from 217 to 214. New buffer starts on 214	|	206 ESPN continues to buffer
15	|	Press YELLOW, select Previous Channels	|	You will see 217, 212, 202, 209 in the list	|	206 ESPN continues to buffer
16	|	Press EXIT	|	214 continues to buffer	|	206 ESPN continues to buffer
17	|	Press DOWN	|	206 ESPN appears, with an intact buffer	|	214 is now on the BG tuner
18	|	Tune to 301	|	301 Noggin appears	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
19	|	Tune to 305	|	305 ION appears	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
20	|	Tune to 317	|	317 QVC appears	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
21	|	Tune to 311	|	311 ABCFam appears	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
22	|	Press PREV	|	311 is replaced with 317 QVC	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
23	|	Press PREV	|	317 is replaced with 311 ABC Fam	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
24	|	Press YELLOW, select Previous Channels	|	You will see 317, 305, 301, 206 in the list	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
25	|	Press SELECT on 305	|	305 is tuned, list updates to show 311, 317, 301, 206	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
26	|	Press SELECT on 301	|	301 is tuned, list updates to show 305, 311, 317, 206	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
27	|	Press EXIT	|	You remain on 301	|	214 continues to buffer on BG
28	|	Press DOWN	|	214 reappars, with intact buffer	|	301 moves to BG tuner
29	|	Press YELLOW, select Previous Channels	|	You will see 217, 212, 202, 209 in the list	|	301 buffers on the BG tuner


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Wasn't the channels you requested but Drew did it best in the table above.

Just take your channel list . . . switch between the first 4 . . . do two down arrows and switch between the next 4. Do a yellow button and you'll see the last 4 (on the second tuner)

Do a down arrow and the last channel of the first 4 is buffering. . . yellow shows the first 4 in the group.

Do a down arrow and the last channel of the second 4 is buffering.

But like Drew's table -- you'll most likely keep something like ESPNHD on one tuner (or a movie on HBO, etc) and then switch with the down arrow to another tuner and possibly check 3 or 4 channels before going back to ESPN.

(Movies don't facilitate DP because there's no commercials to go check other things).

Clear as mud?

Like right now, I have the Clemson / GA Tech game on one tuner and the Pittsburg / Tennesee NFL game on the other. With a pause before the down arrow, I can basically watch both games and skip all the neat commercials!!

Yes, Bolt, it is DLB !!


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

dennisj00 said:


> I'll be happy to discuss any DP / DLB point with mr Bolt
> 
> I'm using it as I speak / type!





ATARI said:


> Welcome home, BJ.
> 
> I've really missed your pointless banter.
> 
> ...


I still have not gotten the update, so it's hard to judge it of course. So far, my observations in this thread lead me to believe that it's split 50/50 with some thrilled and some disappointed.

Fill me in as I can't read 250 posts and want to have the right gist.

BJ


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

MartyS said:


> Actually, DP serves a purpose... one that DLB served. That's being able to watch two programs simultaneously. Pause one and go back to it later and not have to worry.
> 
> I never used DLB on my TiVo just to surf. That's what I have my remote for. If I want a surprise TV show, I'll pick 3 numbers and enter them on the remote and see what pops up.
> 
> ...


A DVR was never designed to let people watch two shows at once. It was designed to record a secondary program while you watch the primary one. Hopping back/forth between programs is unnatural, unneccessary, and wasteful.

The only meaningful use for dual-tuners is to always have them 'on', buffering the two last channels you watched. This way, you come home from work, SNY and YES are in the buffers, WHAM, you can back-back-back up and catch Daliy News Live and Franscesa that you otherwise missed.

Since this WA+ thing cannot do that, it's really nothing special. It's not DLB. It encourages an anti-DVR behavior. It's not what we wanted.

BJ


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

You use your dvr the way you want to and I'll happily use mine WITH DP/ DLB . . . the way I want to!!

Face it Bolt, it's DLB!!!


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

dennisj00 said:


> Yes, Bolt, it is DLB !!


90 minute dual buffers. YES!!!!!

Time's out after 2 hours. BOO!!!!!

The way I use buffers, DP is a big disappointment. The thought that I could come home from work and have 3 hours of programming on my 2 last-viewed channels but can't enable it is frustrating.

BJ


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> OK, here's a walk through of using DOWN to activate DoublePlay, and using PREV and the YELLOW/Previous Channel option to cycle through up to 8 channels, 4 per tuner.


Thanks Drew that works perfectly  I also tried DogLovers suggestion and that worked

Drew your Table is excellent, it should not only be a sticky, it should also be added to the PDF file of 2009 featues. It will clear up a lot of misunderstandings about the sequence of events that make DP work to the max.

Also thanks again Doglover.


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

boltjames said:


> A DVR was never designed to let people watch two shows at once. It was designed to record a secondary program while you watch the primary one. Hopping back/forth between programs is unnatural, unneccessary, and wasteful.


Actually, it's designed to record things. With two tuners, it's designed to record two things. This is so you always have something on that you want to watch and so you never have to watch commercials. So, by that logic, DLB or DP or any other incarnation is totally unnecessary since you shouldn't be watching live TV anyway - let alone 2 tuners worth of live TV. Might just as well get a standard receiver if you're not going to watch recordings.



boltjames said:


> The only meaningful use for dual-tuners is to always have them 'on', buffering the two last channels you watched. This way, you come home from work, SNY and YES are in the buffers, WHAM, you can back-back-back up and catch Daliy News Live and Franscesa that you otherwise missed.


If you're interested in DAily News Live and Fransesca, just record them. Simple. No need to try and get home and rewind through a buffer to catch them. Perhaps you're not aware of how a DVR works. When you are watching something that you like, hit the record button twice. It will record a series of it for you. Then you don't have to keep your fingers crossed all the way home hoping you get there in time to rewind. This way when you come home from work, Daily News Live and Fransesca that you would have otherwise missed, are in the List (List is the section of the DVR that captures and displays all of your recorded shows). WHAM, no need to back-back-back.


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

And it's actually BETTER than DLB. . . TWO 90 minute -- yes 180 minutes of buffers -- you can actually save multiple programs from the buffers if you like them. . . -- and I have mine starting AUTOmatically any time I want them started! (see my serial control thread)

YES it's BETTER than DLB. . . isn't it Bolt!! And I know you'll try to wiggle out of this one.


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

dennisj00 said:


> You use your dvr the way you want to and I'll happily use mine WITH DP/ DLB . . . the way I want to!!
> 
> Face it Bolt, it's DLB!!!


The difference is that the way _you _want to use it is satisfied (watch 2 shows simultaneously) whereas most of us don't have what we wanted (constant dual 90 minute buffering) so it's not very nice to celebrate while most of us are still upset.

It's not DP, it's not DLB. It's PTDLB (Part Time DLB) or ODDLP (On Demand DLB) but its not RTDLB (Real Time DLB) or NMDBN (Ninety-Minute Double-Buffer Nirvana).

BJ


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> 90 minute dual buffers. YES!!!!!
> 
> Time's out after 2 hours. BOO!!!!!
> 
> ...


You could do what most people do with their Digital Video Recorder and actually record something 

While there will be a few people (like yourself) that will never be happy with this implementation, most everyone including many of the naysayers in this very thread will be happy with this implementation after using it for a few weeks. You, of course, will never be happy with it and will undoubtedly let us know for the next few months.


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Might just as well get a standard receiver if you're not going to watch recordings.


Nope, a standard receiver doesn't come close. . . you can't pause, rewind, replay, etc. Had one. Replaced it with an HR.

And I still watch live TV. Not a lot but tonight about 6 hours in 3.

And it's DLB -- isn't it, Bolt!!


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

*spartanstew Actually, it's designed to record things. With two tuners, it's designed to record two things. This is so you always have something on that you want to watch and so you never have to watch commercials. So, by that logic, DLB or DP or any other incarnation is totally unnecessary since you shouldn't be watching live TV anyway - let alone 2 tuners worth of live TV. Might just as well get a standard receiver if you're not going to watch recordings.*

Record one, watch another live. That's the reason for two-tuners in a DVR. Always has been. There's a reason no one makes picture-in-picture TV's anymore. No one used them.

*If you're interested in DAily News Live and Fransesca, just record them. Simple. No need to try and get home and rewind through a buffer to catch them. Perhaps you're not aware of how a DVR works. When you are watching something that you like, hit the record button twice. It will record a series of it for you. Then you don't have to keep your fingers crossed all the way home hoping you get there in time to rewind. This way when you come home from work, Daily News Live and Fransesca that you would have otherwise missed, are in the List (List is the section of the DVR that captures and displays all of your recorded shows). WHAM, no need to back-back-back.*

I don't watch Daily News Live or Franscesa religiously nor do I need the hassle of recording/erasing them every day. But, every two months or so, there's a BBNYSS (Big Breaking New York Sports Story) and it would be great to come home and back-back-back up just on that 1-out-of-60-day occurrence when I actually need the second buffer to do something for me.

BJ


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

*Doug Brott You could do what most people do with their Digital Video Recorder and actually record something*

I do. All the time. My hope was that if DLB was ever reinstituted after being dropped for its malicious misuse, that at least I'd get two 90 minute buffers purring away all day, all night, there when I got home from work.

*While there will be a few people (like yourself) that will never be happy with this implementation, most everyone including many of the naysayers in this very thread will be happy with this implementation after using it for a few weeks. *

I will be very happy on that twice-a-year scenario where I've got a Jets game and a Yankee playoff game on simultaneously. Again, hard for me to pass complete judgement since I haven't gotten the firmware update yet.

*You, of course, will never be happy with it and will undoubtedly let us know for the next few months.*

LOL. If you let me, sir.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> The way I use buffers, DP is a big disappointment. The thought that I could come home from work and have 3 hours of programming on my 2 last-viewed channels but can't enable it is frustrating.
> 
> BJ


Should I remind you of what you stated as fact some time back?



boltjames said:


> I'm on the record as saying 3 or 4 times a year I enjoyed DLB. That's a fact. Two football games coming down to the wire. Sporting events. That's it.


It seems now that we've actually got DoublePlay your 3 or 4 times a year are now going to be in turmoil. Oh, the horror.


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

*Doug Brott Should I remind you of what you stated as fact some time back?*

I actually said it again 2 minutes ago (see above).

*It seems now that we've actually got DoublePlay your 3 or 4 times a year are now going to be in turmoil. Oh, the horror.*

I just wish D* had not decided to disable the second 90 minute buffer that still could be recording something. Do we know why they did this? Do we know why it must be 'enabled' with a 2 hour timeout as opposed to being always on like the good ol' HR10? Part time dual buffers isn't exactly what I was hoping the implementation would be.

BJ


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> I just wish D* had not decided to disable the second 90 minute buffer that still could be recording something. Do we know why they did this? Do we know why it must be 'enabled' with a 2 hour timeout as opposed to being always on like the good ol' HR10? Part time dual buffers isn't exactly what I was hoping the implementation would be.
> 
> BJ


Yup, go back and read the thread, it's been asked and answered numerous times now.

Nothing stops you from watching Live TV on both tuners now. That is what DoublePlay is. No, you cannot go back into the past (e.g. not Live TV) on one of the two buffers until after you start DoublePlay, but you can do so on one of them

It amazes me that entirely random content is deemed so important. If it's truly important (e.g. you actually want to watch it), then record it .. It's not random! Sure, you may get some "good" stuff every once in a while, but it's not like your going to get it every single time or even that often for that matter. If that "random" stuff is so important, why is it random? Use the DVR for what it was designed for .. Record the content you want to watch? :shrug:


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Doug Brott said:
> 
> 
> > Doug Brott Should I remind you of what you stated as fact some time back?
> ...


Yes, you did, and in the same post you state:


boltjames said:


> I will be very happy on that twice-a-year scenario where I've got a Jets game and a Yankee playoff game on simultaneously. Again, hard for me to pass complete judgement since I haven't gotten the firmware update yet.





boltjames said:


> My hope was that if DLB was ever reinstituted after being dropped for its malicious misuse, that at least I'd get two 90 minute buffers purring away all day, all night, there when I got home from work.


So which is it? You want it "twice-a-year" or "when [you get] home from work?"

Remember, "Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't even know what DLB is, they didn't use it when it was on the D* boxes." So why does it even matter if the 2nd tuner is buffering or not?


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Transcripts are a bit. . ch


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Thanks Drew that works perfectly  I also tried DogLovers suggestion and that worked
> 
> Drew your Table is excellent, it should not only be a sticky, it should also be added to the PDF file of 2009 featues. It will clear up a lot of misunderstandings about the sequence of events that make DP work to the max.
> 
> Also thanks again Doglover.


Glad it helped! Like I posted above that table, though, that's the EXTREME use of DoublePlay and for sure many people will not go to such lengths to track that many channels. For the average user, simply swapping tuners will be more than enough: Press PAUSE, press DOWN, surf multiple channels, press DOWN and resume play on the original tuner....

Life is good, right?


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> many of the naysayers in this very thread will be happy with this implementation after using it for a few weeks.


Doug that's going to be one of the problems, they are releasing this during the start of football season and many people are going to try and use it during the games and get frustrated like hell if that buffer flushes

I really really recommend that you guys make up a more detailed PDF file with Drews table in it so that people can just point to the file when the posts comes up.

IMO DP is easy to use in its simplest form but it is not very intuitive to use in its more complex form. More than likely the interface will evolve over time, adding in Drews banner would certainly be one step in that direction.

My other wish is that Directv will finally see the light and come up with a new remote that adds in a few extra buttons, they could get around so many problems in so many areas if the remote had about 5 or more new buttons.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> Glad it helped! Like I posted above that table, though, that's the EXTREME use of DoublePlay and for sure many people will not go to such lengths to track that many channels. For the average user, simply swapping tuners will be more than enough: Press PAUSE, press DOWN, surf multiple channels, press DOWN and resume play on the original tuner....
> 
> Life is good, right?


Life is good 
Your table is not only great for learning how to use it in the extreme mode, it also gives me a visual overview of how this thing is working when the Prev and Yellow button are pressed. Many people are going to press the Prev channel out of habit and wonder what the heck why am I on channel xxx and what happened to my buffer. Your table clears that up 
Thanks Again


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

boltjames said:


> 90 minute dual buffers. YES!!!!!
> 
> Time's out after 2 hours. BOO!!!!!
> 
> ...


It would be really nice if it was on all the time, but I understand the reasons why it is not, and lets face it the only solution to that one is if Direct Cinema could be switched off and I personaly expect that to happen when the tooth fairy manages directv 

As for coming home from work and not being able to access the buffers, yes that would be nice sometimes but hey thats why the series links are there after all you cant setup series links and also expect two buffers to be going!

In any case why mess around with a crap shoot when you have a solution in just setting up recordings for shows, or if thats not an option set the recordings from work via the internet.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Doug that's going to be one of the problems, they are releasing this during the start of football season and many people are going to try and use it during the games and get frustrated like hell if that buffer flushes


You missed my point. I'm talking about the random content that folks are clamoring about. The use for football will be a piece of cake. Anyone that's used it in the past will fall right back into form. Turn it on, use it.

Folks that have never used it? Well, might take a couple of weeks to get used to it, but that's no different than anything else.

The "couple of weeks" is for those folks that are now saying that they will desperately miss the random content, I'll venture to say that that "need" will wane and all will be OK with the world.

I think most folks will be happy that there is a 90 minute buffer. With TiVo I sometimes found myself trying not to fall too far behind since it was only a 30 minute buffer.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> The "couple of weeks" is for those folks that are now saying that they will desperately miss the random content, I'll venture to say that that "need" will wane and all will be OK with the world.


Ok I will bite, What is Random Content? 
I guess I am one of those people who dont miss whatever it is


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

"Random Content" == serendipitously finding stuff in a buffer (especially in the background buffer, it seems!) that you'd like to watch or record.


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> It amazes me that entirely random content is deemed so important. If it's truly important (e.g. you actually want to watch it), then record it .. It's not random! Sure, you may get some "good" stuff every once in a while, but it's not like your going to get it every single time or even that often for that matter. If that "random" stuff is so important, why is it random? Use the DVR for what it was designed for .. Record the content you want to watch? :shrug:


It's not so much about pre-planning. I'm good about that, trust me. Many season passes, many keywords lying in wait to record that elusive Brady Bunch episode with Joe Namath. All set there.

Maybe its me, but I can't tell you how many times I come home and catch a program halfway through and am extremely grateful that I can back-back-back up and see it from the beginning. The 90 minute buffer is a god-send from that standpoint.

Just wish that if D* wanted to create a restomod for DLB that they'd have done it with _both_ tuners, not just one.

BJ


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

*Doug Brott So which is it? You want it "twice-a-year" or "when [you get] home from work?"*

I'm saying that twice a year it comes in _handy_. For some, they use it constantly as if watching two programs at once and toggling back/forth/back/forth is the way it _should_ be.

It's not what the second tuner is there for. It's a glitch. It's not rational to jump back/forth between programs that often. Once in a blue moon, last 2 minutes of two concurrent NFL games, cool. But weekly? Daily? _Hourly_? Just hit the 'record' button if you want to watch more programs than you have LCD screens.

*Remember, "Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't even know what DLB is, they didn't use it when it was on the D* boxes." So why does it even matter if the 2nd tuner is buffering or not?*

The Camry quote was in a discussion as to why DLB wasn't important enough to D* to have them incorporate it in their proprietary DVR. Wasn't talking about _me_. Was talking about _them_ and how the HR10 was a rich-man's plaything and the HR20 was for the masses.

To clear things up:

1. I have lived without DLB for 3+ years and am so satisfied with all the other bells/whistles on the HR2X that I don't care that it's back in a watered-down and inconvenient form.

2. Seeing that D* has created Workaround+ and has enabled the second buffer to function, I'm now disappointed that they crippled it and made it a 2-hour "option" because I like the convenience of having the last _two_ channels I watched have some content that I can back-into in a pinch.

3. I look forward to the DBS population being consistent and equally gleeful when D* announces that "The HR2X has a new feature called Sacrifice Bunt. You can watch a channel, but if you don't push a button on the remote after 2 hours, it'll automatically switch you to Telemundo."

BJ


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> The "couple of weeks" is for those folks that are now saying that they will desperately miss the random content, I'll venture to say that that "need" will wane and all will be OK with the world.


Whoa, am I missing something here?

You didn't just say that the single 90 minute buffer that I currently enjoy goes away if I enable DP did you? That when I come home from work I'll have nothing in either buffer? I don't want to lose the one I've got.

BJ


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## Motorheadbanger (Sep 16, 2006)

*3. I look forward to the DBS population being consistent and equally gleeful when D* announces that "The HR2X has a new feature called Sacrifice Bunt. You can watch a channel, but if you don't push a button on the remote after 2 hours, it'll automatically switch you to Telemundo."

*

LMAO, Dude that was freaking hilarious!:hurah:


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> A DVR was never designed to let people watch two shows at once. It was designed to record a secondary program while you watch the primary one. Hopping back/forth between programs is unnatural, unneccessary, and wasteful.
> 
> The only meaningful use for dual-tuners is to always have them 'on', buffering the two last channels you watched. This way, you come home from work, SNY and YES are in the buffers, WHAM, you can back-back-back up and catch Daliy News Live and Franscesa that you otherwise missed.
> 
> ...





boltjames said:


> <snip>
> It's not what the second tuner is there for. It's a glitch. It's not rational to jump back/forth between programs that often. Once in a blue moon, last 2 minutes of two concurrent NFL games, cool. But weekly? Daily? _Hourly_? Just hit the 'record' button if you want to watch more programs than you have LCD screens.
> <snip>
> BJ


Your funny. :lol:

You're still using that tired old argument that we were never intended to use DLB.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1422172&postcount=2770
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1422988&postcount=2790

Even going so far as to foolishly say that it wasn't even documented in the user's manuals.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1423963&postcount=2819

Only to have this ridiculous theory go down in flames. Not only was it intended to be this way but every DirecTiVo manual told you how to use DLB.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1424235&postcount=2835

Of course you countered with some inane comment about it being buried in the manual.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1425127&postcount=2850

You were then shown that it wasn't buried but actually highlighted; that it had multiple references within the manual and was more prominently set off from the main text as a user tip then other features were.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1425252&postcount=2852

Not to mention the many references going as far back as 2001 about this much wanted; much lauded; and *promised* feature. Yes I said promised. If you had actually done any research (you know&#8230;to have something to back up your comments&#8230;you should try it some time :grin you would have seen that TiVo intended to allow the user to access both tuners with buffers in tact.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1424924&postcount=2847
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1425068&postcount=2849

Two tuner DirecTV DVR's not only have had this feature for at least eight years but also were well documented in the user's manuals. Not only documented but actually highlighted and even set off in a separate "Tip" to ensure the user could see it.

It is painfully obvious to everyone that DLB was intended and that you are so absolutely wrong...again. 

Now maybe we could get back to the topic of DoublePlay vs DLB and quit hijacking the thread.

:backtotop

Mike


----------



## ejjames (Oct 3, 2006)

I think that for those of us who are used to tivo's dlb need to remember the following 2 things.

1. You need to press the down arrow twice to activate.

2. When you toggle to the other tuner it starts playing, and is not in pause.

I find it very intuitive, and will use it, especially for sports. I LOVE the 90 minute buffer, nothing more annoying finding your tivo bringing up the rear of the 30 minute buffer.


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## ejjames (Oct 3, 2006)

rccoleman said:


> It would be more so if it simply turned on automatically when you hit the down arrow. The double button press and "nag screen" to turn on a feature that DirecTV would like us to use is too "in your face". If they absolutely need to turn it off after some period of inactivity, fine. Just enable it automatically when I actually want to use it. If they want to display the nag screen once, fine. Just not every, single time. I realize that people think that this is just nitpicking, but it feels like DirecTV added a worthwhile and desired feature, and unnecessarily made it annoying to use. I'm a big fan of devices doing what I want when I ask them to, rather than having them second guess me *every time*.
> 
> What's the downside to "accidentally" enabling it? Additional nag screens later when a recording needs to occur on the "other" tuner?
> 
> Rob


If there was no confirmation screen, wouldn't it be worse to think you had enabled DP only later finding it did not, for some reason, accept the command?
I don't mind the reminder.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

ejjames said:


> I think that for those of us who are used to tivo's dlb need to remember the following 2 things.
> 
> 1. You need to press the down arrow twice to activate.
> 
> ...


Just a clarification on #2. You can pause prior to swapping tuners. When you swap back it will automatically start playing from that pause point. 

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> "Random Content" == serendipitously finding stuff in a buffer (especially in the background buffer, it seems!) that you'd like to watch or record.


Yup, this is what random content is.


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Motorheadbanger said:


> *3. I look forward to the DBS population being consistent and equally gleeful when D* announces that "The HR2X has a new feature called Sacrifice Bunt. You can watch a channel, but if you don't push a button on the remote after 2 hours, it'll automatically switch you to Telemundo."
> 
> *
> 
> LMAO, Dude that was freaking hilarious!:hurah:


Thank you. Sometimes I just feel so unappreciated.

BJ


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Whoa, am I missing something here?


Yes, a few screws apparently. You're welcome to call this feature what you want. DIRECTV calls it DoublePlay and (show of hands please) who here doesn't think that's a Marketing name?

We've outlined what it does and what it doesn't do. Folks watch TV how they want and if Sports is the only time DoublePlay is ever used, then so be it. before 0x34c even that couldn't be done. :shrug:

It's time for you to just admit that you were wrong and DIRECTV really did have this on the roadmap. I think you'll find that DoublePlay fits within most people's definition of what DLB is. The feature is not identicle to TiVo's implementation and that seems to be the biggest stumbling block for many people .. even those that haven't even tried it.

Once that "change" settles in, I'm confident that those that really care (not those looking for an argument) will be quite happy with the implementation.

Oh, and for the record, even with JUST football, many, many people use DoublePlay every single weekend to optimize viewing NFL games. This doesn't even take into account the individuals who watch multiple dramas or news programs. So while you may find a use for it twice a year, I'm sure there are a lot of NFL fans that use it ~20 weekends out of the year on football alone.


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

Doug Brott said:


> ...many, many people use DoublePlay every single weekend to optimize viewing NFL games. This doesn't even take into account the individuals who watch multiple dramas or news programs.


I use the 30-minute, always on, TiVo version every day on the three DirecTiVos I still have running.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, a few screws apparently.


No, not screws -- bolts.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Yup, this is what random content is.


Well, totally random content would be from _any _channel. Not a channel you have previously viewed before. So odds are the content in the buffer would be closer to your liking than ANY random content. Kind of like a mini-Suggestions feature. How's that feature work with the HR2x again? Oh wait, you have to manually set up Wishlists. Just like you have to manually turn on DLB. D* DVRs do nice things -- as long as you keep reminding them that they need to do them. 

As I said, DoublePlay is good enough for me if not better. But some people have use cases for this feature that DP just doesn't cover. And you can't argue that their use cases aren't valid when there are other competing products that support them. And you can't say that they'll get used to it -- the use cases are not supported differently, they're not supported at all!

The classic example of this that I was taught is a car stereo. You don't need a car stereo to have a useful, reliable, safe car. But if you want a NICE car, you'd better have one (and they all do). And for the "get used to it" argument, try driving around without turning on your car stereo for a month or two. Would you ever get used to it?

This will also be interesting when the DirecTivo comes out. Will they have the same limitation? If not, than the people obsessed with true DLB can switch over, and they can remain D* customers.


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## Voix des Airs (Mar 23, 2009)

Doug Brott said:


> The feature is not identicle to TiVo's implementation and that seems to be the biggest stumbling block for many people .. even those that haven't even tried it.


My issue with it isn't that that it is different from what TiVo does - different is fine. My issue is that what DirecTV has done is just clunky and generally poor UI design.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Voix des Airs said:


> My issue with it isn't that that it is different from what TiVo does - different is fine. My issue is that what DirecTV has done is just clunky and generally poor UI design.


I respect your opinion and respectfully disagree. Certainly there are things I might do differently but in fact I like a lot about DoublePlay better than TiVo's DLB implementation.

If the only criterion for good design is who designed it first, we'd all be driving like this:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q3/how_to_drive_a_ford_model_t-feature


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## Voix des Airs (Mar 23, 2009)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I respect your opinion and respectfully disagree. Certainly there are things I might do differently but in fact I like a lot about DoublePlay better than TiVo's DLB implementation.


And I yours. And I too think that there is much about Double Play that is better than the way TiVO does it. It's just that I consider the required activation/deactivation of a feature that should "Just Work" kind-of ugly and bolted-on. With or without the existence of TiVo I would still consider it clunky.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Voix des Airs said:


> And I yours. And I too think that there is much about Double Play that is better than the way TiVO does it. It's just that I consider the required activation/deactivation of a feature that should "Just Work" kind-of ugly and bolted-on. With or without the existence of TiVo I would still consider it clunky.


...of course one challenge is to deliver the capability without infringing on any patents...just ask Dish - they're $200 Million poorer based on these same kinds of issues with their DVRs.

The DirecTV version of DouplePlay certainly accomplishes what it needs to do, without crossing that line. As for Tivo being a role model in the first place...hardly....they had so many people hack their code in the past because of poor design of numerous features (in their software) that one's head would spin.

Satisfied with DoublePlay here.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

tivo..tivo...tivo..seems that is all I hear for every HR2x dvr feature.
its not a tivo.
I am not a fan of the DP prompt, but I have to believe there were underlying reasons for NEEDING to do it that way.


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## DrummerBoy523 (Jan 9, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I'm seeing a lot of angst-ful posts, but I'm not sure why.
> 
> Folks, there is a reason vBulletin created and this forum permits Ignore Lists. I'm just sayin' ...


how do you use ignore lists on here?


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> "Random Content" == serendipitously finding stuff in a buffer (especially in the background buffer, it seems!) that you'd like to watch or record.


OhhhKay so why not just leave off DP if you want this to still be there


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

DrummerBoy523 said:


> how do you use ignore lists on here?


To add to and manage your list of ignored users, click User Control Panel in the Quicklinks tab at the top of each page, and then look for Edit Ignore List.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> OhhhKay so why not just leave off DP if you want this to still be there


:scratchin


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Voix des Airs said:


> My issue with it isn't that that it is different from what TiVo does - different is fine. My issue is that what DirecTV has done is just clunky and generally poor UI design.


I agree, the UI is kind of clunky but lets keep in mind this is Version one of DLB. I am sure it will evolve over more updates. What I fear can never change is the need to turn it ON. That's my biggest gripe and I am pretty sure it will never be fixed/changed.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Voix des Airs said:


> And I yours. And I too think that there is much about Double Play that is better than the way TiVO does it. It's just that I consider the required activation/deactivation of a feature that should "Just Work" kind-of ugly and bolted-on. With or without the existence of TiVo I would still consider it clunky.


+1

I am pleasantly surprised that the Double Play channel implementation works as smoothly as it dies. I also like the pause when switching. Better design than requiring a manual pause. For all the talk about how D* would never do DLB, you wonder why it took so long.

However, the press to activate requirement is a kludge (i.e., ugly and bolted-on), and is annoying. It needs to go.

The box should take the background tuner for housekeeping after 2 hours of no remote use only if it asks and (i) you release the background tuner or (ii) its after 2 AM local and you fail to respond to a request within 15 minutes. When the housekeeping is done, the background tuner should be returned to the channel it was on previously. Effectively, that will make DP "always on."


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

To those who want it to pause when you press the down arrow:

What if you want it to keep playing? How do you do that? There isn't a "Keep Playing" button.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> I am pleasantly surprised that the Double Play channel implementation works as smoothly as it dies. I also like the pause when switching. Better design than requiring a manual pause. For all the talk about how D* would never do DLB, you wonder why it took so long.


There is no auto-pause, there is, however auto-resume if you do pause it.



> However, the press to activate requirement is a kludge (i.e., ugly and bolted-on), and is annoying. It needs to go.


When you turn DoublePlay on, there are additional conflict resolution messages when recordings start, etc. etc. Not everyone is going to want to turn it on, hence the notification for those times when someone accidentally hits the down arrow key.



> The box should take the background tuner for housekeeping after 2 hours of no remote use only if it asks and (i) you release the background tuner or (ii) its after 2 AM local and you fail to respond to a request within 15 minutes. When the housekeeping is done, the background tuner should be returned to the channel it was on previously. Effectively, that will make DP "always on."


Why the arbitrary 2am? What if the downloads take 8 hours out of the day? Sure, you could grab the background buffer back with interaction, if you interrupt the process, there is still zero buffer when you expected 90 minutes. This way, you know that (1) DIRECTV will not take the background buffer for 2 hours after you've stopped using the remote control and (2) while you are using DoublePlay you have full access to a 90 minute second buffer. This is what makes DoublePlay "safe."

By picking an arbitrary 2am, what if the viewer returns @ 2:16am (in your scenario) .. Poof, gone with no warning anywhere other than perhaps a message board like this. Not everyone visits here, remember. By providing the notice, each time it is turned on, folks will see the timeout notice and understand. It's never arbitrary and it's never misunderstood. Even those that don't like it know exactly how/when it works.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

boltjames said:


> Just wish that if D* wanted to create a *restomod* for DLB that they'd have done it with _both_ tuners, not just one. -- BJ


restomod ??? Wuzzat?


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## rccoleman (Oct 10, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> The box should take the background tuner for housekeeping after 2 hours of no remote use only if it asks and (i) you release the background tuner or (ii) its after 2 AM local and you fail to respond to a request within 15 minutes. When the housekeeping is done, the background tuner should be returned to the channel it was on previously. Effectively, that will make DP "always on."


This would be a good example of the box putting the user's needs above its own, unrelated and uninteresting tasks. The default should be that the user is in control, and the box can figure out when it can do its background tasks without impacting the user. If the user is actually using the system, just do what he asks.

Much is made of the "auto resume" feature where the box is trying to be intelligent and make common or desired tasks automatic, and the same was said of "end padding". Unfortunately, some of DirecTV's decisions seem contrary to the "user is the boss" mentality that I think should guide the design of all electronic devices.

Rob


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

ejjames said:


> If there was no confirmation screen, wouldn't it be worse to think you had enabled DP only later finding it did not, for some reason, accept the command?


I hadn't thought of that! And it's strange that I didn't, because my HR21 ignores about 30% of the commands my remote sends to it -- *no matter whether I use the supplied RC64R or my Harmony One*.

Maybe I won't mind the reminder either -- if I ever get to see it.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> And it's strange that I didn't, because my HR21 drops about 30% of the commands my remote sends to it.


Defective remote...bad batteries...or is your 30% statement inflated?

If mine were doing that (and I have an HR21 too), I'd be getting a new remote - but then...I don't see that here.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Nicholsen said:


> I am pleasantly surprised that the Double Play channel implementation works as smoothly as it does. *I also like the pause when switching.*





Doug Brott said:


> There is no auto-pause, there is, however auto-resume if you do pause it.


Dang it! I thought there *was* an auto-pause when you switch buffers. There certainly should be, even if it has to be enabled by an option. (The prompt saying "DoublePlay is now engaged" or whatever could also be an option. It would be less necessary if the Info bar showed information about the status of the background tuner -- a Wishlist item.)


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Defective remote...bad batteries...or is your 30% statement inflated?
> 
> If mine were doing that (and I have an HR21 too), I'd be getting a new remote - but then...I don't see that here.


Note that I amended my post to say "_my HR21 ignores about 30% of the commands my remote sends to it --_ *no matter whether I use the supplied RC64R or my Harmony One*."

So you think 30% is too high? What's your experience? 15%?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> Note that I amended my post to say "_my HR21 ignores about 30% of the commands my remote sends to it --_ *no matter whether I use the supplied RC64R or my Harmony One*."
> 
> So you think 30% is too high? What's your experience? 15%?


With my RC64 - 0%

With my Marantz 9200 - 0%.

Interested in seeing your results after the latest National Release gets pushed out to you....or do you have it already (34C)?


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

David MacLeod said:


> I am not a fan of the DP prompt, but I have to believe there were underlying reasons for NEEDING to do it that way.


So what other strange things do you find you "have to believe," Dave?


Lewis Carroll said:


> I make it a practice to believe at least one impossible thing before breakfast each morning.


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> restomod ??? Wuzzat?


A "restomod" is a term used to describe a classic car that looks 100% correct from the outside, but underneath has all new chassis, suspension, engine, etc. You can be in what looks identical to a 1967 Stingray but actually drives like a 2010 vehicle.

My "restomod" comment was meant to imply that D* could have taken what-looks-like DLB and improved upon it, not made it worse.

BJ


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...of course one challenge is to deliver the capability without infringing on any patents...just ask Dish - they're $200 million poorer based on these same kinds of issues with their DVRs.


Comparing apples to I-bars.

You do know, don't you, that TiVo and D* have an agreement to use each others' patents and not sue? Don't you?


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Syzygy said:


> So what other strange things do you find you "have to believe," Dave?


well I am just hypothesizing here.
I would find it hard to believe that anyone coding this would WANT to have multiple prompts bugging them or would want to have to use a double press instead of full time buffering.
who in their right mind would want these prompts flashing up all the time?

so maybe there was a reason (I have no idea what it would be) they needed to do it this way. and if so then maybe this was only way to make it work well.
if you NEED to have the down pressed twice then I would think you would need some prompt to tell user to press again.
again, just a guess but maybe there was a copyright issue with full time buffering. I do not know.
keep in mind this is a guess, and I am not a fan of it and am not trying to defend it.

edit: disregard copyright stuff, just saw dlb not patented.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Syzygy said:


> Comparing apples to I-bars.
> 
> You do know, don't you, that TiVo and D* have an agreement to use each others' patents and not sue? Don't you?


Of course....but we don't know the scope within that agreement what is does and doesn't cover.

There may also be some grandfathered items in the inventory.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Of course....but we don't know the scope within that agreement what is does and doesn't cover.
> 
> There may also be some grandfathered items in the inventory.


Since DLB isn't patented, such doesn't apply to this discussion.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Tom Robertson said:


> Since DLB isn't patented, such doesn't apply to this discussion.


Really?

In the earlier DLB long, long DLB thread discussions....there were *alot* of conversations around patent infringement for DLB...

Looks like you just cleared that up.

Thanks.

Then it would appear it comes down to design choices.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

boltjames said:


> A "restomod" is a term used to describe a classic car that looks 100% correct from the outside, but underneath has all new chassis, suspension, engine, etc. You can be in what looks identical to a 1967 Stingray but actually drives like a 2010 vehicle.
> 
> My "restomod" comment was meant to imply that D* could have taken what-looks-like DLB and improved upon it, not made it worse. -- BJ


Yeah, well, they did improve on it in several ways. The only dis-improvement IMO is the loss of TiVo's almost-always-on (but admittedly too short) background buffer. (Maybe D* will relent; if the HR2x would remember what channel was tuned and later return to it, my only objection would go away.)


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

I haven't figured out why people who want 2 tuners always buffering just don't pay for that option. I've had it for years.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Shades228 said:


> I haven't figured out why people who want 2 tuners always buffering just don't pay for that option. I've had it for years.


2 dvr's and cheap hdmi switch


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

David MacLeod said:


> 2 dvr's and cheap hdmi switch


No switch just an input button on the TV


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> No switch just an input button on the TV


And in some cases the TV can do a side by side picture of the 2 inputs.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Shades228 said:


> No switch just an input button on the TV


that too 



RunnerFL said:


> And in some cases the TV can do a side by side picture of the 2 inputs.


hey, PIP


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Where is the Merry-Go-Round smiley when it's needed?


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

boltjames said:


> A "restomod" is a term used to describe a classic car that looks 100% correct from the outside, but underneath has all new chassis, suspension, engine, etc. You can be in what looks identical to a 1967 Stingray but actually drives like a 2010 vehicle.
> 
> My "restomod" comment was meant to imply that D* could have taken what-looks-like DLB and improved upon it, not made it worse.
> 
> BJ


Worse is your opinion. This version of DP is fine for my needs and will be for most users out there. You can easily get what you want by just ordering another box or you can use the free stuff and be happy.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Really?
> 
> In the earlier DLB long, long DLB thread discussions....there were *alot* of conversations around patent infringement for DLB...
> 
> ...


Yup. Doug, Stuart, Earl, and I all kept saying "there is no patent issue..." Yet, somehow, another someone ignores us, and brings it up once more again...


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> well I am just hypothesizing here.
> I would find it hard to believe that anyone coding this would WANT to have multiple prompts bugging them or would want to have to use a double press instead of full time buffering.
> who in their right mind would want these prompts flashing up all the time?
> .


I kind of think that the Channel banner should just come up with a Buffered channel info (like in Drews post). That way you know its ON and also what channel is buffered.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> I haven't figured out why people who want 2 tuners always buffering just don't pay for that option. I've had it for years.


You kidding, if I could have four buffers going I would be even happier.
I don't really need it but I sure as heck would use it. All three networks and maybe CNN or Fox being buffered all night, if the show I am on gets to a boring spot I would just flick over to something else, if that new show seems intersting, I would just rewind and restart it from the start


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

You guys watch way too much live TV.

The first thing I do when I turn the TV on is hit LIST. I don't even need one tuner buffering all the time. I'd much rather watch something I know I want to watch, then hope I can find something on a buffer every time I turn the TV on.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> You guys watch way too much live TV.
> 
> The first thing I do when I turn the TV on is hit LIST. I don't even need one tuner buffering all the time. I'd much rather watch something I know I want to watch, then hope I can find something on a buffer every time I turn the TV on.


I use to do that almost exclusively, but then I found out that new stuff was coming on TV that I was not seeing because I was depending on existing series links and not searching the guide and finding new stuff.

During off season months I now scour the guide looking for shows, I record a lot of them but many are watched live. During the Season (aka Next week), I will start watching almost all recorded stuff.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> I use to do that almost exclusively, but then I found out that new stuff was coming on TV that I was not seeing because I was depending on existing series links and not searching the guide and finding new stuff.


I just visit futoncritic occasionally to see if there's anything new coming on (in any season).


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> There is no auto-pause, there is, however auto-resume if you do pause it.
> 
> When you turn DoublePlay on, there are additional conflict resolution messages when recordings start, etc. etc. Not everyone is going to want to turn it on, hence the notification for those times when someone accidentally hits the down arrow key.
> 
> ...


I think you are right! That will teach me to render honest praise to the HR2x. Let's just add this to the list of HR2x flaws. It should auto-pause when you use DP, but apparently doesn't. Another design error.

Still, I am impressed by the guys who coded the current DP feature on this hardware. It probably took some serious work to make this happen, and I again want to acknowledge the result. I have been very critical of the HR2x in the past, and want to give some props to the guys who made this happen. Thank you!

The rest of your argument is completely unpersuasive. 8 hour downloads? Give me a break.

Pick any time in the AM you like, it will be a minor problem for a a microcosmic group of users. Even better, let the users set the window when downloads will occur, so they know what to expect. That will cover night workers who want their downloads during the day.

This is a case where it appears the suits over-ruled the programmers. Users aren't stupid. Treat them with respect.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> I think you are right! That will teach me to render honest praise to the HR2x. Let's just add this to the list of HR2x flaws. It should auto-pause when you use DP, but apparently doesn't. Another design error.


If it auto-pauses, you'd be happy, but I wouldn't. In the current implementation, you can pause before pressing DOWN. If your way was implemented, I'd have no way NOT to pause before pressing DOWN. So again, you'd be happy, and I wouldn't. DIRECTV's method serves both sets of users, while yours doesn't. Sorry, but DIRECTV made the right call.



> Still, I am impressed by the guys who coded the current DP feature on this hardware. It probably took some serious work to make this happen, and I again want to acknowledge the result. I have been very critical of the HR2x in the past, and want to give some props to the guys who made this happen. Thank you!


I agree... reading back on the DLB threads and knowing the history, this was a tremendous undertaking. I'm happy it's here.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Drew, I think auto-pause on the DP is a must have. However, I acknowledge the logic of your argument.

Perhaps there should be a user option, like the 30Skip, to toggle this? Perhaps there should be an "advanced features" menu where these kinds of options are made available (in one place) to power users?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Nicholsen said:


> I think you are right! That will teach me to render honest praise to the HR2x. Let's just add this to the list of HR2x flaws. It should auto-pause when you use DP, but apparently doesn't. Another design error.


If you want it paused, you can pause it. What about those that wouldn't want to pause it and the pause was automatic? How would they get around that? It might not be what you'd prefer, but it's not a design flaw, it's the correct way to do it.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> You kidding, if I could have four buffers going I would be even happier.
> I don't really need it but I sure as heck would use it. All three networks and maybe CNN or Fox being buffered all night, if the show I am on gets to a boring spot I would just flick over to something else, if that new show seems intersting, I would just rewind and restart it from the start


Easy solution order more DVR's.


----------



## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

They would "get around it" by having it be a user option. That makes everyone happy. The default could be what you propose, but there needs to be an option to change the behavior. I think most people watching football want the buffer paused before the switch. I think it is now acknowledged that is the highest and best use of DLB/DP.

I say this as someone who has run the "pause, down button, release pause" sequence thousands of times on the HR10-250. You can always skip forward, but you never want to skip back on "live" sports. I usually watch 5+ NFL games on Sunday, plus any OT games. The DLB/DP feature makes that possible.


----------



## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

"So has DirecTV officially responded to why DLB is not offered?"

*Doug Brott (2/1/08) --*

"No, and they probably never will issue a press release or official announcement ...

This comment is as official as it is going to get...

*DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in their DVR platform."*"

*Doug Brott (10/11/09) --*

"Yes, a few screws apparently. You're welcome to call this feature what you want. DIRECTV calls it DoublePlay and (show of hands please) who here doesn't think that's a Marketing name?

We've outlined what it does and what it doesn't do. Folks watch TV how they want and if Sports is the only time DoublePlay is ever used, then so be it. before 0x34c even that couldn't be done. :shrug:
*
It's time for you to just admit that you were wrong and DIRECTV really did have this on the roadmap.* I think you'll find that DoublePlay fits within most people's definition of what DLB is. The feature is not identicle to TiVo's implementation and that seems to be the biggest stumbling block for many people .. even those that haven't even tried it.

Once that "change" settles in, I'm confident that those that really care (not those looking for an argument) will be quite happy with the implementation.

Oh, and for the record, even with JUST football, many, many people use DoublePlay every single weekend to optimize viewing NFL games. This doesn't even take into account the individuals who watch multiple dramas or news programs. So while you may find a use for it twice a year, I'm sure there are a lot of NFL fans that use it ~20 weekends out of the year on football alone."

* (Emphasis Added)*

Bolt's dogged postings re DLB should not be overlooked by those who would prefer to rewrite history.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Nicholsen said:


> I think you are right! That will teach me to render honest praise to the HR2x. Let's just add this to the list of HR2x flaws. It should auto-pause when you use DP, but apparently doesn't. Another design error.
> 
> Still, I am impressed by the guys who coded the current DP feature on this hardware. It probably took some serious work to make this happen, and I again want to acknowledge the result. I have been very critical of the HR2x in the past, and want to give some props to the guys who made this happen. Thank you!
> 
> ...


Wait, wait,wait  

I don't want autopause! I switch live TV from football game to another, and if something happened, I'll go back, but I don't want to have to go forward on every swap. It works just like I want right now. 

(This was one of the problems I had with the record two things workaround, it didn't work for me.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> They would "get around it" by having it be a user option. That makes everyone happy. The default could be what you propose, but there needs to be an option to change the behavior. I think most people watching football want the buffer paused before the switch. I think it is now acknowledged that is the highest and best use of DLB/DP.
> 
> I say this as someone who has run the "pause, down button, release pause" sequence thousands of times on the HR10-250. You can always skip forward, but you never want to skip back on "live" sports. I usually watch 5+ NFL games on Sunday, plus any OT games. The DLB/DP feature makes that possible.


I don't know for sure if I would want auto pause, although I understand your point, and the way that you might use DP in your situation.

For me, when I do want to pause, it's real simple... I press the pause button before I switch tuners. When I watch football, I usually switch tuners at a commercial break. I find it easier to let the commercials buffer on the tuner I'm switching from and do a quick rewind to get where I want to get in the buffer.

That's me and the way I use DP or DLB. I wouldn't want auto pause, but would not be adverse to having it as a setting, similar to 30 slip/30 skip.


----------



## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Nicholsen said:


> *Doug Brott (10/11/09) --*


you a fortune teller?


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

David MacLeod said:


> you a fortune teller?


:rolling::icon_lol:!rolling

It's truly amazing how some folks think that DirecTV will cater to their every design whim, or else they make blanket statements on terms like "design flaws". Perhaps a dictionary might be a good XMAS gift for those folks....as the clear don't understand that a flaw is a defect, whereas a design difference is a design difference.

Just because something works differently than they way that one person wants it doesn't make it a "flaw".

Get over it.


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :rolling::icon_lol:!rolling
> 
> *It's truly amazing how some folks think that DirecTV will cater to their every design whim, or *else they make blanket statements od terms like "design flaws". Perhaps a dictionary might be a good XMAS gift for those folks....as the clear don't understand that a flaw is a defect, whereas a design differennce is a design difference.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think that CE'rs sometimes forget that D* is designing these receivers to be used by the "average" user, not just "techno geeks", active CE'rs, or computer programmers, etc. I think we should keep this in mind,when we are testing the new weekly ce, how will my aged friends and families, the average person next door, be using this.


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## drpjr (Nov 23, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> I agree. I think that CE'rs sometimes forget that D* is designing these receivers to be used by the "average" user, not just "techno geeks", active CE'rs, or computer programmers, etc. I think we should keep this in mind,when we are testing the new weekly ce, how will my aged friends and families, the average person next door, be using this.


 That should be rule #1 in the CE handbook!!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> I think you are right! That will teach me to render honest praise to the HR2x. Let's just add this to the list of HR2x flaws. It should auto-pause when you use DP, but apparently doesn't. Another design error.


So how do the folks that don't want it to auto-pause make it keep playing if it always auto-pauses? There is no 'keep playing' button.



> Still, I am impressed by the guys who coded the current DP feature on this hardware. It probably took some serious work to make this happen, and I again want to acknowledge the result. I have been very critical of the HR2x in the past, and want to give some props to the guys who made this happen. Thank you!
> 
> The rest of your argument is completely unpersuasive. 8 hour downloads? Give me a break.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, but these downloads make money for DIRECTV. I don't see this going away. Heck, didn't they just talk about folks being able to go select which movies they wanted downloaded to their DVR (kinda like netflix)? How exactly do you think this content will arrive?


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Nicholsen said:


> Mr. Bolt's dogged contribution to this happy day should not be overlooked by those who would prefer to rewrite history.


Ah, to be fair, that quote from me (oh, and thanks for providing the link to the post ) was actually a re-quote from Earl which was made Jan 2008 time frame.

Here's my quote:


Doug Brott said:


> No, and they probably never will issue a press release or official announcement ...
> This comment is as official as it is going to get...
> 
> DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in their DVR platform.​


Here's where I explained this once before:


Doug Brott said:


> For reference for those who might be wondering where this quote came from:
> 
> The quote was from Earl 12 months ago (interestingly, almost to the day) ..
> 
> ...


And while my requote may not have been clear on that fateful day some 19 months ago, here is the original quote from Earl (also shown above):


Earl Bonovich said:


> Monduj1 said:
> 
> 
> > So has DirecTV officially responded to why DBL is not offered?
> ...


Guess what!? That comment was wrong as it turns out. You may not have been here at the time, but there was a daily (heck, hourly) call for Earl to explain why DIRECTV didn't have Dual Live Buffers. Also, if you'll read the quote very closely, the word 'never' does not appear there. I knew that there was an implicit 'now' at the end of that comment, but most people took it to be an implicit 'ever.'

That's the history ..

Oh, and for all of you DLB aficionados out there .. Are you glad this comment turned out to be wrong? :grin:


----------



## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> Drew, I think auto-pause on the DP is a must have.


I'm on the fence concerning auto pause. For some types of DP utilization (short length programs), I think that it would be great. For other times (long sporting events) it might not be. Overall, I don't think that it's a big issue. IIRC, the HR-10 didn't auto pause either.

I'd also like to thank Directv for releasing the feature. I was a pro-DLB zealot from the beginning of the HR series, and it 's great to finally have it now. The combination of DP and Quicktune makes it really painless to bounce around my favorite channels, especially now during NFL season.


----------



## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> you a fortune teller?


That will teach me to post late at night. The original post obviously should have read 9/11/09.


----------



## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :rolling::icon_lol:!rolling
> 
> It's truly amazing how some folks think that DirecTV will cater to their every design whim, or else they make blanket statements on terms like "design flaws". Perhaps a dictionary might be a good XMAS gift for those folks....as the clear don't understand that a flaw is a defect, whereas a design difference is a design difference.
> 
> ...


Oldest joke among programmers --

"It's not a bug, it's a feature!"

Your right, it is not a software "defect." It's a poor design choice.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Nicholsen said:


> Your right, it is not a "defect." It's a poor design choice.


In your opinion maybe....clearly in the minority of posters in this thread.

But you're entitled to it.


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

The average person will be happy with it, whatever it's "design feature".


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> The average person will be happy with it, whatever it's "design feature".


:up: this is correct and I suspect the folks here will enjoy DoublePlay as well.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Dr. Booda said:


> IIRC, the HR10 didn't auto pause either.


I find it vexing that people keep basing what the HR2x should do on what TiVo does or doesn't do. They assert that the HR2x needn't do something just because TiVo does it. Or they argue that if TiVo doesn't do something, then why should the HR2x?

I'd like to see talk about what the HR2x should do -- period.


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## kymikes (Jan 16, 2008)

Doug Brott said:


> :up: this is correct and I suspect the folks here will enjoy DoublePlay as well.


The fundamental "flaw" in this discussion is that there is ONE correct answer. I used to have an HR10 and loved it. I would change the 'double press' to enable DP if it was my choice but, bottom line, I prefer DP to the DLB as implemented on the HR10. The one thing that is made obvious here is that there are several/many ways that people want to use DP. If individuals want to express their opinion about their 'preferred' way that they would like to use the feature, feel free but remember that they have no more right to be 'correct' than anybody else.

BTW, I thought the oldest joke among programmers was "If you can't fix it, feature it". Just my opinion.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

kymikes said:


> BTW, I thought the oldest joke among programmers was "If you can't fix it, feature it". Just my opinion.


There are no programming bugs...only random features.....


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Nicholsen said:


> Drew, I think auto-pause on the DP is a must have. However, I acknowledge the logic of your argument.
> 
> Perhaps there should be a user option, like the 30Skip, to toggle this? Perhaps there should be an "advanced features" menu where these kinds of options are made available (in one place) to power users?


+1 Prefer the Auto Pause


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## kymikes (Jan 16, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There are no programming bugs...only random features.....


One of the more humorous comments from one of my programmers (in days past) was a recommendation that we could save time by just filling the defined memory space with random bits and then debug it. :hurah:


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

kymikes said:


> The fundamental "flaw" in this discussion is that there is ONE correct answer. I used to have an HR10 and loved it. I would change the 'double press' to enable DP if it was my choice but, bottom line, I prefer DP to the DLB as implemented on the HR10. The one thing that is made obvious here is that there are several/many ways that people want to use DP. If individuals want to express their opinion about their 'preferred' way that they would like to use the feature, feel free but remember that they have no more right to be 'correct' than anybody else.
> 
> BTW, I thought the oldest joke among programmers was "If you can't fix it, feature it". Just my opinion.


I actually like your version of the joke better.

I also like the idea of a "power user panel" that would let advanced users adjust certain of these behaviors. Mainstream users could just leave their boxes in plain vanilla mode. You could always "reset" the box to factory defaults with a reboot. (I believe this is how the skip works on the TiVo.)


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> +1 Prefer the Auto Pause


Then the earlier workarounds are available. They autopaused. (Record both items and use the PREV button.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> I find it vexing that people keep basing what the HR2x should do on what TiVo does or doesn't do. They assert that the HR2x needn't do something just because TiVo does it. Or they argue that if TiVo doesn't do something, then why should the HR2x?
> 
> I'd like to see talk about what the HR2x should do -- period.


Well said, thats exactly what I think, we should not be holding the Tivo as some sort of Gold Standard but instead we should take the best features and improve the rest!


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Then the earlier workarounds are available. They autopaused. (Record both items and use the PREV button.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I know your saying that with a tiny bit of sarcasm but your statement is exactly what I said at the start.
IMO if you like to pause the buffers and just switch back and forth between channels, the old method works just about as easily as the new. Also +1 in that the old method has no time limit! (except when the show ends)


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

I have received the new firmware and am preparing my review of DP. At first glance, the new functionality is a welcome addition but its fatal flaws outweigh its upside.

More to come later tonight.

BJ


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

boltjames said:


> I have received the new firmware and am preparing my review of DP. At first glance, the new functionality is a welcome addition but its *fatal flaws* outweigh its upside.
> 
> More to come later tonight.
> 
> BJ


Fatal? My DP isn't dead. Maybe you need to talk nice to yours.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

boltjames said:


> I have received the new firmware and am preparing my review of DP. At first glance, the new functionality is a welcome addition but its fatal flaws outweigh its upside.
> 
> More to come later tonight.
> 
> BJ


Oh boy! We can't wait!


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Oh boy! We can't wait!


Now now, you know that his report will be totally unbiased, and of interest to everyone.

!rolling


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## SlimyPizza (Oct 14, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> Now now, you know that his report will be totally unbiased, and of interest to everyone.
> 
> !rolling


Possibly as unbiased and interesting as your remark? Let's leave the forum open to all who want to comment....


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

SlimyPizza said:


> Possibly as unbiased and interesting as your remark? Let's leave the forum open to all who want to comment....


Maybe you haven't seen his past posts. :lol:


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

SlimyPizza said:


> Possibly as unbiased and interesting as your remark? *Let's leave the forum open to all who want to comment.*...


That includes me.
I don't know what it was you were reading, but I never suggested closing the forum to anyone. Where did I write that?


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

My thoughts on the new firmware:

1. It's extremely fast and that is the most impressive thing of all. Forget DP, the fact that it powers on instantly, blazes through menus, loses all the lag of the last release.....bravo D*.

2. Don't know why, but my picture looks clearer. Perhaps some tweaks to how the DVR handles compression, but the picture looks improved.

3. Next time D*, if you're going to release something this good, consider charging for it. I'd have paid $4.99 for the speed increases. D*App Store. Think about it.

My positive thoughts on Double Play:

1. It works properly as Super Jump, lets you toggle effortlessly between the two tuners, blazingly fast. Good job.

2. The resources necessary to enable the new functionality seems to have had zero impact on the base resources, meaning that nothing has been compromised, no steps-back to get DP moving. Good job.

3. If you pause one of the tuners, jump to the other, and then jump back, the paused tuner un-pauses itself. Very un-D*like to remove a button-press they might have otherwise have added. They seem to be button-happy; this is a good step in the other direction.

What ruins Double Play:

1. It has to be turned on instead of always being on. Makes no sense as to why D* would make a user turn it on/off. The very best part of two tuners should be coming home from work and having 180 minutes buffered on the last two channels you were watching in case something unexpected catches your eye when you turn the TV on.

2. It times-out after 2 hours. Again, makes no sense as to why if a user has chosen to enable it at, say, 7pm why that same user would suddenly not want it again at, say, 10pm. If DP has to go 'off' for some reason, at least D* could have made that happen when the DVR is turned 'off' for the night.

3. The entire concept of DLB adds stress and complication to the viewing experience. The knowlege that you have the second tuner can force you into caring about what it's doing in the background, force you to put something there that you might want to see, distract you from the primary channel that you should be watching.

4. Maddeningly, DP doesn't allow you to put the same channel on both buffers without putting the previous buffer into the second buffer. The result of this is that you can't toggle between the same channel on two tuners with two different sets of 90 minute buffers in them.

Fortunately, all the upside of the Super Jump function for the three-times-a-year you need it hasn't come at the expense of performance loss.

Unfortunately, this hybrid-DLP is missing its best feature- unlimited 180 minute buffering- no on/off to deal with, no timeout to ruin things, and the fact that you can't put the same channel on both tuners with different buffers is a major, major frustration.

Two steps up, three steps back.

BJ


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## cdc101 (Jan 9, 2007)

boltjames said:


> My thoughts on the new firmware
> 
> Two steps up, three steps back.
> 
> BJ


Really...a net of 1 step back? I respectfully disagree...but that is why we have our own opinions I guess.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

cdc101 said:


> Really...a net of 1 step back? I respectfully disagree...but that is why we have our own opinions I guess.


I concur. Seems like at least two buffered steps forward. 

I'm definitely happy--in time for football. woohoo! 

Cheers,
Tom


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> I concur. Seems like at least two buffered steps forward.
> 
> I'm definitely happy--in time for football. woohoo!
> 
> ...


During a Packer game: Watch the Packers, stay focused, don't jump around to other games.

When the Packers aren't on: Watch the Red Zone Channel. It does the jumping for you.

BJ


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> During a Packer game: Watch the Packers, stay focused, don't jump around to other games.
> 
> When the Packers aren't on: Watch the Red Zone Channel. It does the jumping for you.
> 
> BJ


Two words: Com cials 

Oh and another two words: Half time


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Two words: Com cials
> 
> Oh and another two words: Half time


Can't argue there. And, like I say, I enjoy some jumping between 2 games with 30 seconds on the clock at 4:10pm too and the fact that there is a buffer lets me pause or skip back to not miss anything. That's all good. I just wish it did more and that D* didn't make the strange decision to force a user to turn it on/off every day and then force it turn itself off after an arbitrary 2 hour timeframe, that's all.

BJ


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## tvradio00 (Aug 26, 2009)

boltjames said:


> My thoughts on the new firmware:
> 
> 1. It's extremely fast and that is the most impressive thing of all. Forget DP, the fact that it powers on instantly, blazes through menus, loses all the lag of the last release.....bravo D*.
> 
> ...


Absolutely Correct


----------



## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

Sorry, I haven't read all 18 pages of this discussion. If my question is out of line then please just ignore me. Put me in the camp that DP is fatally flawed for casual user. As a casual user I will likely never think to use it and then when I wish I had DP turned on it probably won't be. But likely all of the posters in this forum are expert DVR users who will likely turn on DP first thing out of habit. This is to me the the seemingly equivelent of 'always on' which seems to be the biggest complaint by users like myself and boltjames. So if DP is activated by the down arrow being pressed twice and the remains on with any remote activity why not just have any remote activity activite DP from the start? This would mean that DP would not have to always be turned on so that maintenance task could occur and it would be on without having to turn it on when you have someone interacting with the DVR.


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> Sorry, I haven't read all 18 pages of this discussion. If my question is out of line then please just ignore me. Put me in the camp that DP is fatally flawed for casual user. As a casual users I will likely never think to use it and then when I wish I had DP turned on it probably won't be. But likely all of the posters in this forum are expert DVR users who will likely turn on DP first thing out of habit. This is to me the the seemingly equivelent of 'always on' which seems to be the biggest complaint by users like myself and boltjames. So if DP is activated by the down arrow being pressed twice and the remains on with any remote activity why not just have any remote activity activite DP from the start? This would mean that DP would not have to always be turned on so that maintenance task could occur and it would be on without having to turn it on when you have someone interacting with the DVR.


+1. Dead on. The HR10 was a rich-man's plaything. The HR2X is for the masses. The "casual user" needs to be considered.

BJ


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Does anyone actually watch TV for 2+ hours of no remote pressing, besides maybe a long movie?


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Does anyone actually watch TV for 2+ hours of no remote pressing, besides maybe a long movie?


The typical NFL game runs 3 hours, a baseball game can run 4, and if you run the audio through a receiver the only button pressing is an occassional up/down on the volume button on a universal remote.

As a parent, 2 hours can go by pretty quickly. A simple distraction about homework or picking your son up from a friends house can take you away from the TV. So let's say I enable DP, watch 1 hour of programming, WHAM, distraction. I come back to the TV around an hour later and find that the second tuner is gone. That shouldn't happen. This 2 hour timeout is ridiculous.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

gitarzan said:


> Sorry, I haven't read all 18 pages of this discussion. If my question is out of line then please just ignore me. Put me in the camp that DP is fatally flawed for casual user. As a casual user I will likely never think to use it and then when I wish I had DP turned on it probably won't be. But likely all of the posters in this forum are expert DVR users who will likely turn on DP first thing out of habit. This is to me the the seemingly equivelent of 'always on' which seems to be the biggest complaint by users like myself and boltjames. So if DP is activated by the down arrow being pressed twice and the remains on with any remote activity why not just have any remote activity activite DP from the start? This would mean that DP would not have to always be turned on so that maintenance task could occur and it would be on without having to turn it on when you have someone interacting with the DVR.


But what are the odds the second buffer would be on the channel you just happen to want to find DP already buffering? Unless you only watch 2 channels, it will be purely hit or miss.

I tend to find things to watch live via the guide (premium movies mostly, nearly everything else is recorded--which I find in the guide...) When I want DP, I know that I want to watch and set it up to those two channels.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> The typical NFL game runs 3 hours, a baseball game can run 4, and if you run the audio through a receiver the only button pressing is an occassional up/down on the volume button on a universal remote.
> 
> BJ


So then you're not using DP at all... No problem.


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> So then you're not using DP at all... No problem.


No one should be using DP. A DVR is meant to let you watch a program without stress while it's backup tuner records the other show you wanted to watch too.

If I started the Yankee game at 12pm and the Jets game at 1pm, focused on the Jets with my universal remote for just volume, and then at 3pm said "oh yeah, Yanks are on the other channel, let's see what's going on there" I'd have no buffer.

DP makes the assumption, especially for sports, that you're always jumping back/forth/back/forth which isn't usually the case. You start somewhere, forget about it, get immersed in something else, remember later, and swap tuners.

There should be no time constraint on "jumping with buffers". There's no reason for it. Is there?

BJ


----------



## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

gitarzan said:


> As a casual user I will likely never think to use it and then when I wish I had DP turned on it probably won't be. But likely all of the posters in this forum are expert DVR users who will likely turn on DP first thing out of habit.


I never turn it on unless I need it. If I need it, I turn it on. Why is that complicated? As I said previously, in almost 10 years of using a DVR, I've never turned on the TV and found a random show on each tuner that I wished I would have been buffering. If there's two shows I want to buffer, I know when they're coming on and I'm ready for it (or I've recorded them).



boltjames said:


> +1. Dead on. The HR10 was a rich-man's plaything. The HR2X is for the masses. The "casual user" needs to be considered.
> 
> BJ


The casual user was considered. My wife has no problem with it and uses it occasionally. I found my 6 year old son flipping back between Noggin and Disney last week. He had seen me pressing the down arrows and he tried it. He loved it. Can't get more casual than that.



boltjames said:


> The typical NFL game runs 3 hours, a baseball game can run 4, and if you run the audio through a receiver the only button pressing is an occassional up/down on the volume button on a universal remote.
> 
> As a parent, 2 hours can go by pretty quickly. A simple distraction about homework or picking your son up from a friends house can take you away from the TV. So let's say I enable DP, watch 1 hour of programming, WHAM, distraction. I come back to the TV around an hour later and find that the second tuner is gone. That shouldn't happen. This 2 hour timeout is ridiculous.
> 
> BJ


You never pause a 3 or 4 hour game? What's the point of having a DVR? Pause it for 30 - 60 minutes, watch something from the list, then come back and watch so you can fast forward through the commercials. I'm pretty confident you've never sat through a 3 or 4 hour game without pausing or checking out the guide or the list during commercials or something else. And if you do sit there staring at the game for 3-4 hours without doing anything else, then a 90 minute buffer sure isn't going to help you whether it's on or not.

You don't pause the game you're watching to pick up your son from school? Yes, if you watch an hour of TV without pausing or hitting any other button, then you just walk away, again without pausing, for another hour, your buffer will be gone. But guess what, even if the buffer was there, you'd miss at least 30 minutes of the show on the other tuner that you were so worried about.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> No one should be using DP. A DVR is meant to let you watch a program without stress while it's backup tuner records the other show you wanted to watch too.


Um... Please don't tell us how we "should" be using our DVRs. They are meant to enhance both the live viewing experience as well as the recorded viewing experience. Otherwise there'd be no need for ANY buffers.


boltjames said:


> If I started the Yankee game at 12pm and the Jets game at 1pm, focused on the Jets with my universal remote for just volume, and then at 3pm said "oh yeah, Yanks are on the other channel, let's see what's going on there" I'd have no buffer.
> 
> DP makes the assumption, especially for sports, that you're always jumping back/forth/back/forth which isn't usually the case. You start somewhere, forget about it, get immersed in something else, remember later, and swap tuners.
> 
> ...


DP Doesn't make the assumption--it answers the need for people who do switch back and forth.

If you hadn't checked on the Yankee game for 2 hours, especially during the long breaks like between quarters and at halftime of the Jets game, you can't say you really were watching the Yankee game. Cuz if you really were watching it--you would have checked far more often. 

(Or recorded it.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Lodi25 (Jun 23, 2009)

The buffering thing is not on my DVR's yet! Dose it take this long to get the software update??


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

*spartanstew I never turn it on unless I need it. If I need it, I turn it on. Why is that complicated? As I said previously, in almost 10 years of using a DVR, I've never turned on the TV and found a random show on each tuner that I wished I would have been buffering. If there's two shows I want to buffer, I know when they're coming on and I'm ready for it (or I've recorded them).*

....and for me, also with 10+ years of DVR experience, I come home from work, find that there's an interesting show in progress, and back-back-back up to catch it from the beginning. It would be great to have the convenience doubled, on _two _tuners instead of just one.

*The casual user was considered. My wife has no problem with it and uses it occasionally. I found my 6 year old son flipping back between Noggin and Disney last week. He had seen me pressing the down arrows and he tried it. He loved it. Can't get more casual than that.*

That's why there's a "jump" button on the remote. The buffers didn't come into play in your 6 year old's example.

*You never pause a 3 or 4 hour game? What's the point of having a DVR? Pause it for 30 - 60 minutes, watch something from the list, then come back and watch so you can fast forward through the commercials.*

Clearly, you're not a diehard sports fan. The world stops when there's a Yankee, Rangers, or Jets game on in my house. Pause a tied NFL game in the 4th quarter to watch a recording of How I Met Your Mother? You kidding?

*I'm pretty confident you've never sat through a 3 or 4 hour game without pausing or checking out the guide or the list during commercials or something else. *

Think again. Normal viewers, those that aren't DLB/ADD challenged, that's what we do. We're home, we're wearing our jerseys, we've got the chips and dips all laid out, we've got our drinks. We watch the game. We're not watching TV. We're watching the _game_.

*And if you do sit there staring at the game for 3-4 hours without doing anything else, then a 90 minute buffer sure isn't going to help you whether it's on or not.*

Remember how "the workaround" was deemed inconvenient because you had to record the program, pad it, go into the playlist, watch it, delete it? Same thing here. If I started with a Yankee game at 12pm then went to Tuner 2 at 1pm for the Jets game and watched it straight through to 4pm, I want to jump back to the Yankee game and see the last hour and a half plus the postgame show. No chance that I missed the last inning that way which is what often happens even with a recording and padding.

*You don't pause the game you're watching to pick up your son from school? Yes, if you watch an hour of TV without pausing or hitting any other button, then you just walk away, again without pausing, for another hour, your buffer will be gone. But guess what, even if the buffer was there, you'd miss at least 30 minutes of the show on the other tuner that you were so worried about.*

If I knew I was going to be away from the TV for an hour of course I'd pause it or record the shows in question. I often find that I go to the mailbox during a commercial, speak to a neighbor, find out that my son is up the block, walk up there, speak to another parent, come home, BOOM, an hour is gone and so is buffer #2.

You are not a real-world DVR user. I think that's why you're struggling to understand where the rest of us are coming from.

BJ


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> If you hadn't checked on the Yankee game for 2 hours, especially during the long breaks like between quarters and at halftime of the Jets game, you can't say you really were watching the Yankee game. Cuz if you really were watching it--you would have checked far more often.
> 
> (Or recorded it.)
> 
> ...


First you tell me not to tell others how to use their DVR's and then you tell me how to use my DVR. Confusing.

I'm just conveying how I, and thousands of others, have used the second tuners in our DVR's for years. Those of us who never liked PIP and who watch programs without recording much. For those of us like that, who don't watch two things at once, who don't jump back/forth incessantly, quickly putting a secondary program in the 2nd buffer is a down-and-dirty way to do exactly what you're recommending.

A Yankee game never ends on time, and it rolls right into the excellent YES postgame show. I can finish a Jets game at 4pm and know that I can just go to Tuner 2 and backskip to the final out and the postgame show which is a very fast and convenient alternative to going into the guide and recording both programs.

DP is all about convenience, and I'd argue that to the commonplace DVR user, there are 10x more viewers who engage in the garden variety DLB usage I describe as opposed to the power usage others are describing. That there are 10x more users using the second tuner as a second _tuner _and not as a Psycho Buffer Jumper. And for us, the 2 hour timeout is a deal-breaker.

BJ


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

I don't think it is complicated. I have 25 years of corporate IT experince and I think I know complicated. I guess everyones viewing habits are different but during the course of a day it is very likely I would have used the buffer on a background tuner if it were available maybe once or twice. My TV is often on 10-12 hours a day. I keep it on the background while I do other things. I rarely sit and watch TV unless a UK basketball game is on. During the day I like to watch in the background aniimal planet, science channel or some other education channel and usually have a news or business channel that I will switch back and forth between every hour or maybe every several hours. Since I only watch a few channels it is likely that swap to a channel that is not buffered does have something I would be interested in or switching back to what I was previously watching. I don't feel it is asking to much to be able to rewind if I feel I have missed something interesting to me. If I have to take the time and thought to turn on DP every few hours I won't bother.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

boltjames said:


> *
> The casual user was considered. My wife has no problem with it and uses it occasionally. I found my 6 year old son flipping back between Noggin and Disney last week. He had seen me pressing the down arrows and he tried it. He loved it. Can't get more casual than that.
> 
> That's why there's a "jump" button on the remote. The buffers didn't come into play in your 6 year old's example.
> *


*

Oh yes they did. He loved switching and rewinding.



boltjames said:




You never pause a 3 or 4 hour game? What's the point of having a DVR? Pause it for 30 - 60 minutes, watch something from the list, then come back and watch so you can fast forward through the commercials.

Clearly, you're not a diehard sports fan. The world stops when there's a Yankee, Rangers, or Jets game on in my house. Pause a tied NFL game in the 4th quarter to watch a recording of How I Met Your Mother? You kidding?


Click to expand...



Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Pausing and switching during the 4th quarter of a tied NFL game. :nono2:

If you're not going to pause the game for something else, then you don't need DP anyway, so why the compaints?



boltjames said:




I'm pretty confident you've never sat through a 3 or 4 hour game without pausing or checking out the guide or the list during commercials or something else. 

Think again. Normal viewers, those that aren't DLB/ADD challenged, that's what we do. We're home, we're wearing our jerseys, we've got the chips and dips all laid out, we've got our drinks. We watch the game. We're not watching TV. We're watching the game.


Click to expand...



I can picture you now on your couch wearing your jersey. :lol:

Again, if you are going to sit through a 3-4 hour game in your Jersey eating chips and dip, the you don't need DP. Why the complaints? DP is for people that want to watch more than one thing at a time, clearly you don't.



boltjames said:




And if you do sit there staring at the game for 3-4 hours without doing anything else, then a 90 minute buffer sure isn't going to help you whether it's on or not.

Remember how "the workaround" was deemed inconvenient because you had to record the program, pad it, go into the playlist, watch it, delete it? Same thing here. If I started with a Yankee game at 12pm then went to Tuner 2 at 1pm for the Jets game and watched it straight through to 4pm, I want to jump back to the Yankee game and see the last hour and a half plus the postgame show. No chance that I missed the last inning that way which is what often happens even with a recording and padding.


Click to expand...



No, I never found the workaround inconvenient. If fact, I preferred it to Tivos DLB, because it would auto-resume.



boltjames said:




If I knew I was going to be away from the TV for an hour of course I'd pause it or record the shows in question.  I often find that I go to the mailbox during a commercial, speak to a neighbor, find out that my son is up the block, walk up there, speak to another parent, come home, BOOM, an hour is gone and so is buffer #2.

You are not a real-world DVR user. I think that's why you're struggling to understand where the rest of us are coming from.

BJ

Click to expand...



You're been using it for an hour and this often happens? And if you are gone an hour after pausing it, then the buffer wouldn't be gone. You'd have another whole hour to go try on Jerseys before it dumped. Additionally, I try not to use my neighbors to determine my kids whereabouts, so apparently we're different in many ways.

Where the rest of us are coming from????? You're in the minority. You're in the minority here and you'd be in the minority among real-world users. You really thing real-world users are hoping to come home from work and find 2 random shows that they can rewind and watch at the same time? You're delusional if you think that. That's your only knock against it. The whole "times out after 2 hours argument" because your neighbor tells you to go get your kids is among the weakest things I've ever heard here.

You don't like the fact that you can't come home and rewind 2 random things that might happen to be on. Even though realistically this would only happen maybe a couple of times per year (unless you'll watch just about anything), it gives you one thing to make a stink about. Which is your MO. Some people are never happy. You're one of them. Most people aren't. Most people will be very pleased with this.*


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> No one should be using DP. A DVR is meant to let you watch a program without stress while it's backup tuner records the other show you wanted to watch too.
> ...





boltjames said:


> First you tell me not to tell others how to use their DVR's and then you tell me how to use my DVR. Confusing.


The quote above is telling everyone how they should *not* be using their DVRs. My replies have been about how you _are_ using your DVR--with a suggestion of a way to accomplish what you want.


boltjames said:


> I'm just conveying how I, and thousands of others, have used the second tuners in our DVR's for years. Those of us who never liked PIP and who watch programs without recording much. For those of us like that, who don't watch two things at once, who don't jump back/forth incessantly, quickly putting a secondary program in the 2nd buffer is a down-and-dirty way to do exactly what you're recommending.


Sorry, none of us buys this comment. Your statements are too often conflicting: DVRs should never DLB, DVRs can't do DLB, no one should ever watch live events, you never use DLB, occassionally use DLB, now you want to use DLB all the time, etc. Statements of this inconsistency are purely attempts to argue. Whichever side, doesn't matter.


boltjames said:


> A Yankee game never ends on time, and it rolls right into the excellent YES postgame show. I can finish a Jets game at 4pm and know that I can just go to Tuner 2 and backskip to the final out and the postgame show which is a very fast and convenient alternative to going into the guide and recording both programs.


So you might record the postgame show. You'll get the final out. 

Or you might try flipping to the Yankee game during one of the many commercials on the Jets game... (I still don't think you are really interested in the Yankee game if all you want is the last out. That sounds like highlights reel to me...) 


boltjames said:


> DP is all about convenience, and I'd argue that to the commonplace DVR user, there are 10x more viewers who engage in the garden variety DLB usage I describe as opposed to the power usage others are describing.
> 
> BJ


Lets see: No one should ever use DLB. Now it is a convenience. And commonplace DVR users use DLB, but none of them should use DLB...

And now you're providing statistics on how many users would use DLB (that, again you feel shouldn't use DLB) vs. how many power users would use DLB differently.

Then again here is the probably most telling part of that sentence:


boltjames said:


> ... I'd argue...


 

(Our would that be arguably the most telling part?) 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Two steps up, three steps back.


If that's the way you feel about it, then don't use it .. 'nuff said. Then you save that step backward. Everyone else that enjoys DP will be happily using it later today for Sunday Ticket


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> If that's the way you feel about it, then don't use it .. 'nuff said. Then you save that step backward. Everyone else that enjoys DP will be happily using it later today for Sunday Ticket


Me! Me! Me! I'll be using it 

Cheers,
Tom


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Where the rest of us are coming from????? You're in the minority. You're in the minority here and you'd be in the minority among real-world users. You really thing real-world users are hoping to come home from work and find 2 random shows that they can rewind and watch at the same time? You're delusional if you think that.
> 
> Even though realistically this would only happen maybe a couple of times per year (unless you'll watch just about anything), it gives you one thing to make a stink about. Which is your MO. Some people are never happy. You're one of them. Most people aren't. Most people will be very pleased with this.


Let me make this simple, because clearly you're not getting it. You think the second tuner's purpose is for jumping, most of us think its not:

"Jumpers" Are Happy. DP allows them to jump back/forth/back/forth and have a buffer so they don't miss anything. For these ADD types, they can now enjoy watching everything all at once without actually enjoying a single program in its entirety. Some people are like that, good for them, they're satisfied.

"Viewers" Are Unhappy. DP isn't about jumping to them. DP means that the second tuner and its buffer _could _be used to conveniently put a second channel in there on 'permanent record' for an entire day, week, month, or year. Sitting their quietly and conveniently, recording an hour and a half of programming on a favorite channel. A round-the-clock time machine, letting the viewer access it at his leisure. These people watch programs in their entirety and get frustrated when they navigate to a second-favorite program on a favorite channel that's already in progress. The second tuner enablement is a great solution for this type of casual viewer.

Trust me, Mr. & Mrs. Camry aren't using their DVR like you are. They watch TV. They're not hopping around watching two things at once. The better purpose for the second tuner is to be just that- a second *tuner*, a backup to the primary one, quietly recording the channel you asked it to. It's the good ol' standard 90 minute buffer x2. That's how the majority use it, for those that know it's there at all, that is.

BJ


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Lets see: No one should ever use DLB. Now it is a convenience. And commonplace DVR users use DLB, but none of them should use DLB...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Correct. No one should be using a DVR to jump back/forth between two concurrent programs as a normal way of watching TV. The entire point of a DVR is to alleviate the need for "jumping" like that. DLB is merely a happy accident for jumpers. The unfortunate end-product and opposite of what the second tuner is actually there for to begin with.

I would have preferred that the second tuner never be enabled at all. But now that it has, it should have at least been done correctly.

The second tuner on a DVR's primary purpose is to record something while you watch something else live. What I'm discussing is precisely that situation. My old HR10, I'd lock ESPN or YES or MSG or another favorite channel in there for months solely so that whenever I wanted to see the last 30 minutes of something on that channel and/or missed the first few minutes of a program on that channel, it was sitting there waiting for me as a backup.

There is a difference between a "jumper" and a "viewer". Jumpers should be thrilled with DP. I get that. But the rest of us, we Viewers, we don't jump around much at all and for those that have used two-tuner DVR's what I'm describing is a natural course of business for us. If you don't jump, you use the second tuner to lock in on a favorite channel so that (in the case of the HR2X) you could have always had 90 minutes of programming there. Because of the timeout, DP is a let down for us. Surely you can comprehend this.

BJ


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> Let me make this simple, because clearly you're not getting it. You think the second tuner's purpose is for jumping, most of us think its not:


Most? Please show your homework if you make claims... (ie a source backing up your argument.)


boltjames said:


> "Jumpers" Are Happy. DP allows them to jump back/forth/back/forth and have a buffer so they don't miss anything. For these ADD types, they can now enjoy watching everything all at once without actually enjoying a single program in its entirety. Some people are like that, good for them, they're satisfied.


Please be careful with the pejorative use of ADD. I am ADD and quite happy with the tremendous benefits therein.

And also please take care of telling others how we don't "actually enjoy watching a single program in its entirety." You don't know how others might or might be enjoying things.


boltjames said:


> "Viewers" Are Unhappy. DP isn't about jumping to them. DP means that the second tuner and its buffer _could _be used to conveniently put a second channel in there on 'permanent record' for an entire day, week, month, or year. Sitting their quietly and conveniently, recording an hour and a half of programming on a favorite channel. A round-the-clock time machine, letting the viewer access it at his leisure. These people watch programs in their entirety and get frustrated when they navigate to a second-favorite program on a favorite channel that's already in progress. The second tuner enablement is a great solution for this type of casual viewer.
> 
> Trust me, Mr. & Mrs. Camry aren't using their DVR like you are. They watch TV. They're not hopping around watching two things at once. The better purpose for the second tuner is to be just that- a second *tuner*, a backup to the primary one, quietly recording the channel you asked it to. It's the good ol' standard 90 minute buffer x2. That's how the majority use it, for those that know it's there at all, that is.
> 
> BJ


Trust you? !rolling With a record of inconsistent statements of: DIRECTV will never DLB, DVRs shouldn't be used for DLB, DVRs are for recordings only, you never use DLB, occasionally use DLB, always use DLB, DVRs can't possibly DLB, most people don't do DLB yet are unhappy, etc.

Of course from time to time each of us will make postings that seem inconsistent. Context, ambiguity, tireness, and mistakes happen. Somehow tho, methinks this is different...

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> Correct. No one should be using a DVR to jump back/forth between two concurrent programs as a normal way of watching TV. The entire point of a DVR is to alleviate the need for "jumping" like that. DLB is merely a happy accident for jumpers. The unfortunate end-product and opposite of what the second tuner is actually there for to begin with.
> 
> I would have preferred that the second tuner never be enabled at all. But now that it has, it should have at least been done correctly.
> 
> ...


There it is again. That statement of you know how DVRs "should be used". Telling everyone that the second tuner should even be disabled.

Then in the same breath saying you want DLB for a live viewing experience. !rolling

Then trying to classify users (who shouldn't exist in your first statement) as jumpers OR viewers. All of whom you say could use DLB--that you say shouldn't be possible.

So why are you trying to say as to how we should be doing with our DVRs? You can't even express how you want to use a DVR consistently. :lol:

Cheers,
Tom


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Most? Please show your homework if you make claims... (ie a source backing up your argument.) Please be careful with the pejorative use of ADD. I am ADD and quite happy with the tremendous benefits therein.
> 
> And also please take care of telling others how we don't "actually enjoy watching a single program in its entirety." You don't know how others might or might be enjoying things.Trust you? !rolling With a record of inconsistent statements of: DIRECTV will never DLB, DVRs shouldn't be used for DLB, DVRs are for recordings only, you never use DLB, occasionally use DLB, always use DLB, DVRs can't possibly DLB, most people don't do DLB yet are unhappy, etc.
> 
> ...


Instead of looking for inconsistencies, how about addressing the argument made? What's next.....spelling errors?

Regarding homework and claims, tell me, how many TV's made today offer picture-in-picture? If jumping with buffering was so important to its subscriber base, why would D* ignore it completely for 3+ years during its most critical expansion period?

There are "jumpers" and there are "viewers". Two completely different behaviors by two completely different users on the same hardware. That's a fact. Jumpers are happy. Good. Viewers aren't as happy. Bad.

DBS tolerated "Bring Back DLB!" zealots for years. I look forward to the "Free Us From The Bondage Of The 2 Hour Timeout!" support as well.

BJ


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> Instead of looking for inconsistencies, how about addressing the argument made? What's next.....spelling errors?
> 
> Regarding homework and claims, tell me, how many TV's made today offer picture-in-picture? If jumping with buffering was so important to its subscriber base, why would D* ignore it completely for 3+ years during its most critical expansion period?
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I couldn't find a cohesive argument within the inconsistencies. Please try again.

Without insulting ADD'ers. Without telling people how you think a DVR should be used. And without statistics are are made up unless shown to be otherwise.

Cheers,
Tom


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> There it is again. That statement of you know how DVRs "should be used". Telling everyone that the second tuner should even be disabled.
> 
> Then in the same breath saying you want DLB for a live viewing experience. !rolling
> 
> ...


I'm sure that the passengers on the Titanic didn't think the boat could sink, but once it was obvious that it was going down the amount of lifeboats was all that mattered.

BJ


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> I'm sure that the passengers on the Titanic didn't think the boat could sink, but once it was obvious that it was going down the amount of lifeboats was all that mattered.
> 
> BJ


Titanic??? DLB is a titanic going down? !rolling !rolling (that's a double.) 

Thankfully I'll be enjoying viewing, jumping, recording, and watching my HR2x's.


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Titanic??? DLB is a titanic going down? (that's a double.)
> 
> Thankfully I'll be enjoying viewing, jumping, recording, and watching my HR2x's.


It's called an "analogy". It's about context.

In a world where the second tuner is not enabled, what the second tuner is doing is immaterial. Once you live in a world where the second tuner _is_ enabled, what its doing can be discussed.

The argument for DLB has always been about the jumpers and their unique way of enjoying TV programming. The argument has never been about "well, once the second tuner _is_ enabled, what's the best way for it to function and what else can it do?"

When we boarded in Southampton, we didn't talk lifeboats. Now that the boat's halfway underwater, we should.

BJ


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> It's called an "analogy". It's about context.
> 
> In a world where the second tuner is not enabled, what the second tuner is doing is immaterial. Once you live in a world where the second tuner _is_ enabled, what its doing can be discussed.
> 
> ...


Seems to me analogies that use extreme examples for comparison are more !rolling than useful. (Or so emotionally charged that no comparison is possible.)

I can't see this being a life and death situation. The titanic was.

Perhaps you see the HR2x's as life and death? Ouch. !rolling


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> DBS tolerated "Bring Back DLB!" zealots for years. I look forward to the "Free Us From The Bondage Of The 2 Hour Timeout!" support as well.


Talk about it all you want .. It will be in vain .. And yeah, you can quote me on that one as it will not be different down the road unless there are more than two tuners inside a single device.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> Sorry, I haven't read all 18 pages of this discussion. If my question is out of line then please just ignore me. Put me in the camp that DP is fatally flawed for casual user. As a casual user I will likely never think to use it and then when I wish I had DP turned on it probably won't be. But likely all of the posters in this forum are expert DVR users who will likely turn on DP first thing out of habit. This is to me the the seemingly equivelent of 'always on' which seems to be the biggest complaint by users like myself and boltjames. So *if DP is activated by the down arrow being pressed twice and the remains on with any remote activity why not just have any remote activity activite DP from the start? This would mean that DP would not have to always be turned on so that maintenance task could occur and it would be on without having to turn it on when you have someone interacting with the DVR*.


That isn't a bad idea. That would make DP activation invisible to the user, save a couple button presses (it appears some user's fingers get very tired from over use). I could go with this.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Does anyone actually watch TV for 2+ hours of no remote pressing, besides maybe a long movie?


I know I use the remote many times, even within a 1 hour period; that is why the 2 hour activation "limit" isn't a limit for me.
Even with a long movie there are potty breaks, and snack breaks, skipping/slipping past commercials.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> *But what are the odds the second buffer would be on the channel you just happen to want to find DP already buffering? Unless you only watch 2 channels, it will be purely hit or miss. *
> 
> I tend to find things to watch live via the guide (premium movies mostly, nearly everything else is recorded--which I find in the guide...) When I want DP, I know that I want to watch and set it up to those two channels.
> 
> ...


Isn't that usually the case when DP is activated for the first time? I know that sometimes when I first activate DP, I kinda wonder why the second channel is what it is? Your first paragraph seems to support wanting DP to be always on, and I know that is not your intention. I don't see a need to have DP always on.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

boltjames said:


> No one should be using DP. *A DVR is meant to let you watch a program without stress while it's backup tuner records the other show you wanted to watch too.*
> 
> If I started the Yankee game at 12pm and the Jets game at 1pm, focused on the Jets with my universal remote for just volume, and then at 3pm said "oh yeah, Yanks are on the other channel, let's see what's going on there" I'd have no buffer.
> 
> ...


What is going on in your life that would cause you to have so much stress over a second channel being buffered in the back ground? Do you hear voices telling you "BoltJames, you *must* toggle between two buffered channels."?


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Let me make this simple, because clearly you're not getting it. You think the second tuner's purpose is for jumping, most of us think its not:
> 
> "Jumpers" Are Happy. DP allows them to jump back/forth/back/forth and have a buffer so they don't miss anything. For these ADD types, they can now enjoy watching everything all at once without actually enjoying a single program in its entirety. Some people are like that, good for them, they're satisfied.
> 
> ...


Isn't that what scheduling a recording is for? Usually, the first thing I do in the morning when I turn on the tv, is to scan the guide to see if there shows I want to record during the day. I don't have a interest in RW/FF through a buffer just to see what I missed...I don't need a dvr diary of all the shows that have been on on a particular channels.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

I want a "Merry-GO-Round" smiley.....


BoltJames: "Out damn DP! You are causing me anxiety" --->:bang <------DP:"Then don't use me. I'm here to stay and I am better."


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## pjsauter (Jan 6, 2008)

Glad to hear that wanting is better than having, 'cuz Sunday's here, and I'm still wanting.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Me! Me! Me! I'll be using it
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


And I know that you and I are both going to be watching the same game tonight... that's fer sure....

:lol::lol:


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## zudy (Jul 23, 2009)

I am still wanting here too. Someday.


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## cdc101 (Jan 9, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> *What is going on in your life that would cause you to have so much stress over a second channel being buffered in the back ground?* Do you hear voices telling you "BoltJames, you *must* toggle between two buffered channels."?


Took the words right out of my mouth!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> What is going on in your life that would cause you to have so much stress over a second channel being buffered in the back ground? Do you hear voices telling you "BoltJames, you *must* toggle between two buffered channels."?


That was one of the arguments he used in the old DLB thread. For some reason he considers DLB so much of a distraction that it actually causes him stress to use it. :shrug:

Everyone I know that used DLB loved it...I can't understand where the evidence would be something like that. I suppose you could say that frantically swapping back and forth and always, I don't know, worring(?) about what is where could be stressful. The problem with that argumtne is that it's unsupportable...there's no proof and thus not a cogent argument. :grin:

Mike


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

boltjames said:


> *
> Clearly, you're not a diehard sports fan. The world stops when there's a Yankee, Rangers, or Jets game on in my house.  Pause a tied NFL game in the 4th quarter to watch a recording of How I Met Your Mother? You kidding?
> BJ*


*

Maybe his posts will too, for a while anyway. Here's hoping for overtime.:lol:*


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

BubblePuppy said:


> Maybe his posts will too, for a while anyway. Here's hoping for overtime.:lol:


!rolling !rolling !rolling


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## Kojo62 (Aug 9, 2007)

boltjames said:


> My thoughts on the new firmware:
> ...
> 3. The entire concept of DLB adds stress and complication to the viewing experience. The knowlege that you have the second tuner can force you into caring about what it's doing in the background, force you to put something there that you might want to see, distract you from the primary channel that you should be watching.
> ...
> BJ


I respect differing opinions, but I really don't see what's so stressful or complicated about the DLB concept, especially if you're the type of viewer who's had experience using a DLB-enabled DVR in the past.

As implemented, it's still an optional feature that anyone can simply choose not to use if you don't care about it. Shouldn't that pretty much eliminate any perceived stress?

But it's something I do care about, and it's a feature I've very much missed in the HR series. As someone who's suffered through the manual workaround in its place, I'm just glad to see that my Wish List vote actually counted and grateful that DP is finally here ... well, I will be once I actually get the update, anyway.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> That was one of the arguments he used in the old DLB thread. For some reason he considers DLB so much of a distraction that it actually causes him stress to use it. :shrug:
> 
> Everyone I know that used DLB loved it...I can't understand where the evidence would be something like that. I suppose you could say that frantically swapping back and forth and always, I don't know, worring(?) about what is where could be stressful. The problem with that argumtne is that it's unsupportable...there's no proof and thus not a cogent argument. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Well, he could always leave DoublePlay off and it's Single Live Buffer just like it always has been :shrug: And you know if he accidentally hits the down arrow he has the change to exit out without starting it. Not sure why it should be stressful at all.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

Doug Brott said:


> Well, he could always leave DoublePlay off and it's Single Live Buffer just like it always has been :shrug: And you know if he accidentally hits the down arrow he has the change to exit out without starting it. Not sure why it should be stressful at all.


hook just 1 input up and disable 2nd tuner completely.
DP would never be an issue then


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## cadet502 (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm happy to have Double (DLB) Play. Testing out the freeview of Sunday ticket, kind of a pain to always remember to EXIT before DOWN to swap off the MIX channel back to the game I care most about.


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

Yankees, Rangers or *Jets*?

That explains a lot.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

gitarzan said:


> Sorry, I haven't read all 18 pages of this discussion. If my question is out of line then please just ignore me. Put me in the camp that DP is fatally flawed for casual user. As a casual user I will likely never think to use it and then when I wish I had DP turned on it probably won't be. But likely all of the posters in this forum are expert DVR users who will likely turn on DP first thing out of habit. This is to me the the seemingly equivelent of 'always on' which seems to be the biggest complaint by users like myself and boltjames. So if DP is activated by the down arrow being pressed twice and the remains on with any remote activity why not just have any remote activity activite DP from the start? This would mean that DP would not have to always be turned on so that maintenance task could occur and it would be on without having to turn it on when you have someone interacting with the DVR.


One problem with this, is that with DP on, the DVR will prompt you if it needs to use the background tuner. If it came on automatically, without you activating it specifically, then you get unneeded pop ups. After all, if you aren't watching the background tuner, why see a pop up about losing it?


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## pjsauter (Jan 6, 2008)

gitarzan said:


> Sorry, I haven't read all 18 pages of this discussion. If my question is out of line then please just ignore me. Put me in the camp that DP is fatally flawed for casual user. As a casual user I will likely never think to use it and then when I wish I had DP turned on it probably won't be. But likely all of the posters in this forum are expert DVR users who will likely turn on DP first thing out of habit. This is to me the the seemingly equivelent of 'always on' which seems to be the biggest complaint by users like myself and boltjames. So if DP is activated by the down arrow being pressed twice and the remains on with any remote activity why not just have any remote activity activite DP from the start? This would mean that DP would not have to always be turned on so that maintenance task could occur and it would be on without having to turn it on when you have someone interacting with the DVR.


I'm not quite sure how you'd forget to activate it. I don't have DP yet, but from what I gather, if you want to switch between the two tuners when watching live TV, you'd have to hit the down arrow anyway, at which point you get a prompt that hitting the down arrow again will activate DP. Unless you're just assuming that the background tuner will always happen to be on something you really want to see, I guess.

Just seems as if there were two live programs you wanted to watch simultaneously, you'd want to switch to the other tuner and tune it to the channel you want (or at least verify that it's on the right channel), at which point, DP gets activated . At least, that's how I envision using it (for sports, primarily, or possibly some sort of breaking news story). Assuming I ever get it, of course.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

pjsauter said:


> I'm not quite sure how you'd forget to activate it. I don't have DP yet, but from what I gather, if you want to switch between the two tuners when watching live TV, you'd have to hit the down arrow anyway, at which point you get a prompt that hitting the down arrow again will activate DP. Unless you're just assuming that the background tuner will always happen to be on something you really want to see, I guess.
> 
> Just seems as if there were two live programs you wanted to watch simultaneously, you'd want to switch to the other tuner and tune it to the channel you want (or at least verify that it's on the right channel), at which point, DP gets activated . At least, that's how I envision using it (for sports, primarily, or possibly some sort of breaking news story). Assuming I ever get it, of course.


You've got it. The odds are that you'll want to watch something else meaning .. no buffer anyway. It'd just be dumb luck if you wanted to rewind and watch the background tuner and doing so every single time .. never happen.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

pjsauter said:


> I'm not quite sure how you'd forget to activate it. I don't have DP yet, but from what I gather, if you want to switch between the two tuners when watching live TV, you'd have to hit the down arrow anyway, at which point you get a prompt that hitting the down arrow again will activate DP. Unless you're just assuming that the background tuner will always happen to be on something you really want to see, I guess.
> 
> Just seems as if there were two live programs you wanted to watch simultaneously, you'd want to switch to the other tuner and tune it to the channel you want (or at least verify that it's on the right channel), at which point, DP gets activated . At least, that's how I envision using it (for sports, primarily, or possibly some sort of breaking news story). Assuming I ever get it, of course.


No, you can hit the 'prev' button. Just now I have been watching travel channel for the last few hours. I pressed the prev button to go to Fox news and a story was on about Galvestion TX that was ending. I would have liked to have backed up a few minutes and watched the entire story but couldn't.


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## pjsauter (Jan 6, 2008)

gitarzan said:


> No, you can hit the 'prev' button. Just now I have been watching travel channel for the last few hours. I pressed the prev button to go to Fox news and a story was on about Galvestion TX that was ending. I would have liked to have backed up a few minutes and watched the entire story but couldn't.


Perhaps I have this wrong (I often do; just ask my wife  ), but when you hit the 'previous' button, aren't you going to the previous channel on the same tuner? So DP being active or not wouldn't really matter.

Now, if you hit the down arrow twice and activated DP and found something on the background tuner that you'd like to see from the beginning, then, yes, in that case it would be good to have DP active.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> No, you can hit the 'prev' button. Just now I have been watching travel channel for the last few hours. I pressed the prev button to go to Fox news and a story was on about Galvestion TX that was ending. I would have liked to have backed up a few minutes and watched the entire story but couldn't.


The only thing that allows you to switch tuners is the down arrow. The prev button, and previous channels in the yellow menu will only show you what the last channels are or last channel was on the tuner that you are currently on. These prev channels are kept independently on the two tuners.. Just another great feature on the DP!


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

pjsauter said:


> Perhaps I have this wrong (I often do; just ask my wife  ), but when you hit the 'previous' button, aren't you going to the previous channel on the same tuner? So DP being active or not wouldn't really matter.
> 
> Now, if you hit the down arrow twice and activated DP and found something on the background tuner that you'd like to see from the beginning, then, yes, in that case it would be good to have DP active.


Thats a good point and I don't know for sure. My assumption was that since the foreground tuner may be recording it would make more sense that the 'prev' button is always a toggle between tuners. It would also have to work that way for AM21 locals unless going from a local to another local.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> The only thing that allows you to switch tuners is the down arrow. The prev button, and previous channels in the yellow menu will only show you what the last channels are or last channel was on the tuner that you are currently on. These prev channels are kept independently on the two tuners.. Just another great feature on the DP!


Since you are toggling between two channels on the same tuner, the buffers on the tuner will be flushed when the previous button is used. You won't be able to rewind, nothing there to rewind, nor FF.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

gitarzan said:


> That's a good point and I don't know for sure. My assumption was that since the foreground tuner may be recording, it would make more sense that the 'prev' button is always a toggle between tuners. It would also have to work that way for AM21 locals unless going from a local to another local.


Nah, bad assumption. Please read back a few days, looking for long posts from DP backers like Doug Brott and Drew2k.

Here's a great explanation, in table form, from Drew2k: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2211873#post2211873


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

DLB, Wanting is better than asking too many questions !!


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## Wilmo54 (Oct 16, 2007)

I have DLB!!!! (I don't care what fancy little name DTV gives it) I'm freaking excited, this is the greatest day of my life...Well maybe not the greatest. But it is the best day this week so far. :hurah::hurah::hurah:


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

My HR's were updated last night and I was finally able to try DP and it works great! I just want to thank everyone on the CE program for doing an excellent job with it.

It is very simple to use and swapping tuners is easy. One thing I like is if you are recording on both tuners, you now have the ability to quickly swap back & forth between the tuners by pressing [Down Arrow]. DP is worth it just for that feature alone.

Prior to DP it was much more cumbersome to accomplish that task. While watching one live recording, I had to press 
, pick the other live recording and then use [Prev] to swap between the tuners. When it was a live game I was monitoring, when I swapped tuners, I wanted to see the live action. So I then had to use "skip to end" to get to the live action. Now I can accomplish all of that just by simply pressing [Down Arrow]. Can't wait for next weeks NFLST games!


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I've deleted several posts that reference the Cutting Edge. If you want more information about that program, check out this forum.

http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=171

Otherwise, discussion of the Cutting Edge is to remain in the Cutting Edge forums.


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## Machael (Apr 20, 2008)

Thank you for finally making this happen!!!

A bit late for the first weekend of football, but that's OK!


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## Surfguy (Oct 11, 2007)

OMG...got home from work today and saw the pop-up on new features with DoublePlay. I could not believe my eyes!!!!!!!

Lo and behold...HELL HAS FINALLY FROZEN OVER and DirecTV has dual buffers now. I am in complete shock. It was a long time coming. I missed you, dual buffers without recording. Oh...how I missed you from Tivo. Now that you are back...I have to get my mind reset.

THANK YOU, DIRECTV! 

SWEET LORDIE!!! I'M FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE TO DUAL!!!!!!!!!!!!! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, whatever happened to the million page thread on this topic with all the complaints and ramblings? It's been a while since that thread.


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## coit (Feb 13, 2007)

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I long ago gave up on ever expecting to get this feature.

Awesome!


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Surfguy said:


> OMG...got home from work today and saw the pop-up on new features with DoublePlay. I could not believe my eyes!!!!!!!
> 
> Lo and behold...HELL HAS FINALLY FROZEN OVER and DirecTV has dual buffers now. I am in complete shock. It was a long time coming. I missed you, dual buffers without recording. Oh...how I missed you from Tivo. Now that you are back...I have to get my mind reset.
> 
> ...


Once the rumors that DLB was really happening took over, that thread slowly sank below the fold, then farther and farther into deep history.


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Once the rumors that DLB was really happening took over, that thread slowly sank below the fold, then farther and farther into deep history.


Yeah but someone is back trying to personally rehash all of it instead of just enjoying the DP feature like everyone else...

DP works great for those who wanted it and great for those who didn't as it isn't always activated. Sounds like a perfect implementation to me.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I've kept my dog out of this fight but if Bolt doesn't pause / rewind / replay in a 3 or 4 hour game --- HE DOESN"T NEED A DVR!! OR DP! Too much stress in his life. Get a receiver.

I also agree he should disconnect the second tuner and avoid all possibilities of additional stress.

I just know I watched 2 games Saturday night with DP in about a 3.5-4 hour timeframe and no commercials. Also no stress!


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Dr. Booda said:


> Yeah but someone is back trying to personally rehash all of it instead of just enjoying the DP feature like everyone else...
> 
> DP works great for those who wanted it and great for those who didn't as it isn't always activated. Sounds like a perfect implementation to me.


The fact that the second tuner isn't always "on" is ridiculous. Perfect example happened today. It's 5pm, I'm getting ready to leave the office, and a friend calls to tell me that SNY has a lot of Jets stuff going on today on 3 consecutive shows that started at 4:30. I've already shut down the computer, so I get out the iPhone 3G and attempt to connect to D*'s app. Can't get enough bars, can't get into the app, I just drive home. By the time I get there, the shows are almost over.

Last night I enabled DP to put SNY in the buffer while watching the ludicrous Buffalo meltdown, because I use that second buffer as a down-and-dirty way to record 90 minutes of programming for that exact purpose. When the Pats lucky night was over, I could back-back-back up on Tuner 2 and see what I missed on SNY. Easier than recording/deleting everything.

Well, back to tonight, if D* would have gotten rid of the stupid on/off feature for DP, I'd have walked in the door and had all 90 minutes of those programs in the buffer. I used to use my HR10 for that purpose too. Outside of football Sunday's, I'd put a favorite channel (ESPN, YES, MSG, NFLN) in there for the whole week, so that if bored I could just swap to Tuner 2 and see what was in there on a channel I'd know I'd enjoy.

So, while Jumpers can be happy that DP addresses the jump-with-buffers issue, we Viewers are not happy that DP requires itself to be turned on and turns itself off after 2 hours. Perfect example happened to me today, unfortunately.

BJ


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> The fact that the second tuner isn't always "on" is ridiculous. Perfect example happened today. It's 5pm, I'm getting ready to leave the office, and a friend calls to tell me that SNY has a lot of Jets stuff going on today on 3 consecutive shows that started at 4:30. I've already shut down the computer, so I get out the iPhone 3G and attempt to connect to D*'s app. Can't get enough bars, can't get into the app, I just drive home. By the time I get there, the shows are almost over.
> 
> Last night I enabled DP to put SNY in the buffer while watching the ludicrous Buffalo meltdown, because I use that second buffer as a down-and-dirty way to record 90 minutes of programming for that exact purpose. When the Pats lucky night was over, I could back-back-back up on Tuner 2 and see what I missed on SNY. Easier than recording/deleting everything.
> 
> ...


Too bad for you SNY only has those shows on two or more times yet tonight and tomorrow...

(And Jets extra points is a regular show... You might want a Series Link, after all--it is a DVR...)
http://web.sny.tv/schedule/index.jsp


> 4:30 PM	Jets Extra Point 901 (L)	Expert analysts break down the previous week's New York Jets game and provide insight into the plays, match-ups, and ultimate outcome.
> 5:00 PM	Daily News Live (L)	A roundtable discussion of the day's top sports news, featuring host Jonas Schwartz and Joe Benigno.
> 5:30 PM	The WheelHouse (L)	9 innings of topical sports banter, with host Brian Custer and Brandon Tierney.
> 6:00 PM	Loud Mouths (L)	Two opinionated New Yorkers go head-to-head on the biggest sports topics of the day, co-hosted by Chris Carlin and Adam Schein.
> ...


Must be horrible to "only use DLB once a year" (as you have stated) to have it miss that one time when things are repeated, eh? !rolling

Cheers,
Tom


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## NiteOwl (Aug 29, 2007)

Bolt = Debbie Downer


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## rebkell (Sep 9, 2006)

boltjames said:


> The fact that the second tuner isn't always "on" is ridiculous. Perfect example happened today. It's 5pm, I'm getting ready to leave the office, and a friend calls to tell me that SNY has a lot of Jets stuff going on today on 3 consecutive shows that started at 4:30. I've already shut down the computer, so I get out the iPhone 3G and attempt to connect to D*'s app. Can't get enough bars, can't get into the app, I just drive home. By the time I get there, the shows are almost over.
> 
> Last night I enabled DP to put SNY in the buffer while watching the ludicrous Buffalo meltdown, because I use that second buffer as a down-and-dirty way to record 90 minutes of programming for that exact purpose. When the Pats lucky night was over, I could back-back-back up on Tuner 2 and see what I missed on SNY. Easier than recording/deleting everything.
> 
> ...


I agree about the turning off part, doesn't make much sense to me either. You're supposed to know ahead of time that something on the other tuner might be worth seeing and make sure you bounce over there every now and then to assure that it is buffering.

I got slightly stuttery video tonight on my recording of Warehouse 13, haven't had that happen on a recorded show in months, I tried it on a CE many months back and had the very same issue, it's not horrid, but it's irritating.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

rebkell said:


> I agree about the turning off part, doesn't make much sense to me either. You're supposed to know ahead of time that something on the other tuner might be worth seeing and make sure you bounce over there every now and then to assure that it is buffering.
> ...


??? You know that something might be happening on the other tuner so you have DP set to that tuner, yet you don't know something might be happening on that other tuner?

What if one of the other 200+ channels has something you want? Even I don't want 100 DVRs...


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## rebkell (Sep 9, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> ??? You know that something might be happening on the other tuner so you have DP set to that tuner, yet you don't know something might be happening on that other tuner?
> 
> What if one of the other 200+ channels has something you want? Even I don't want 100 DVRs...


The point is, if I change tuners and something is on that I"m interested in and it's just started or been on a for a bit, it would be nice to be able to back up and catch the whole thing, the way it's set up, I don't have that choice if I haven't swapped tuners in the last couple of hours. I'll probably not use it that much anyway, but it does seem kind of counter intuitive to turn it off, it would be understandable if the unit had to do something else and the buffer got flushed, but don't really understand the logic behind the auto shutoff.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

It's random content .. pure happenstance that the background tuner is on and there might be something you want to watch. Probably your "favorite" channel is already the foreground channel which is buffered. I know that's the case in our house.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

My 2 cents.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

rebkell said:


> The point is, if I change tuners and something is on that I"m interested in and it's just started or been on a for a bit, it would be nice to be able to back up and catch the whole thing, the way it's set up, I don't have that choice if I haven't swapped tuners in the last couple of hours. I'll probably not use it that much anyway, but it does seem kind of counter intuitive to turn it off, it would be understandable if the unit had to do something else and the buffer got flushed, but don't really understand the logic behind the auto shutoff.


The point is that the unit does have things to do. If you don't hit the remote for 2hours, it has been programmed to believe you don't need the second buffer anymore and can then do those other things.

Cheers,
Tom


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Too bad for you SNY only has those shows on two or more times yet tonight and tomorrow...
> 
> Must be horrible to "only use DLB once a year" (as you have stated) to have it miss that one time when things are repeated, eh?
> 
> ...


The HR2X has two tuners. The second one has now been enabled for access. Putting an on/off switch with a two hour time limit on it is a joke. Those that were involved in the decision-making process compromised on functionality and that's a pity. The rest of the HR2X feature-set is a thing of beauty; they shouldn't have skimped on this particular feature.

BJ


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> It's random content .. pure happenstance that the background tuner is on and there might be something you want to watch. Probably your "favorite" channel is already the foreground channel which is buffered. I know that's the case in our house.


No, actually. The foreground tuner is "random". It's the background tuner that's the "deliberate favorite".

Tuner 1: Random content, whatever I happened to be watching the night before when I hit the 'off' button and went to bed.

Tuner 2: A deliberate favorite channel, lurking in the background, doing its job, recording my most important channel 24/7 with 90 minutes of buffered content there at a moment's notice.

In my familiy, I'm the only one who knows that the second tuner is there with a down-press. The wife, the nanny, the kids.....they all mess with Tuner 1. Tuner 2 is all mine. If D* would let it be, that is.

BJ


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> ??? You know that something might be happening on the other tuner so you have DP set to that tuner, yet you don't know something might be happening on that other tuner?
> 
> What if one of the other 200+ channels has something you want? Even I don't want 100 DVRs...


To some people, Tuner 2 is most useful as a jump-with-buffer.

To some people, Tuner 2 is most useful as a full-time favorite-channel 90 minute time machine.

In my case, jump-with-buffer is necessary once a week at most, on NFL Sunday's. So DP, for me, is a 3 hour "win" vs. what we had prior to DP.

In my case, full-time favorite-channel 90 minute time machine is FAR more useful as I'd use it daily, and it would help me avoid setting up repeating recordings, help me when I forget to record something, help me when an unexpected event occurs, help me when a damn Mets game pre-empts or shifts a favorite program. I used it this way with my HR10 for years. It's a shame that D* only partially enabled the second tuner.

BJ


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> To some people, Tuner 2 is most useful as a jump-with-buffer.
> 
> To some people, Tuner 2 is most useful as a full-time favorite-channel 90 minute time machine.
> 
> ...


On the surface the bolded paragraph would seem to contradict to everything you've previously posted about DLB....Hmmmm...

Well, I use DP daily as I did with my DirecTiVos.

Mike


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> On the surface the bolded paragraph would seem to contradict to everything you've previously posted about DLB....Hmmmm...
> 
> Well, I use DP daily as I did with my DirecTiVos.
> 
> Mike


Don't forget the to read the sig.

"Thank You D* For Killing DLB"

Antagonism for antagonism's sake.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

boltjames said:


> In my case, full-time favorite-channel 90 minute time machine is FAR more useful as I'd use it daily, and it would help me avoid setting up repeating recordings, help me when I forget to record something, help me when an unexpected event occurs, help me when a damn Mets game pre-empts or shifts a favorite program. I used it this way with my HR10 for years. It's a shame that D* only partially enabled the second tuner.
> 
> BJ


I will agree that when I had my cable DVR, I used the dual buffers as you described and would have liked the HR's to work that way. Although for me, it does the most important features. So I'm ecstatic that I now have DP!

- Allows me to buffer 2 tuners for 90 minutes w/o recording
- Ability to quickly swap between tuners with one button
- Keeps buffering, provided I press almost any button on the remote.

When you were called a troll, I thought you might be a Dish subscriber. I saw your signature line showed D* equipment, but checked your posting history just to be sure. Your last 300 posts appear to be about DLB/DP, which is unbelievable! Must be very important to you.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> In my case, jump-with-buffer is necessary once a week at most, on NFL Sunday's. So DP, for me, is a 3 hour "win" vs. what we had prior to DP.


Funny, I could have swore you said DoublePlay was a step back from Single Live Buffer :scratchin



> In my case, full-time favorite-channel 90 minute time machine is FAR more useful as I'd use it daily, and it would help me avoid setting up repeating recordings, help me when I forget to record something, help me when an unexpected event occurs, help me when a damn Mets game pre-empts or shifts a favorite program. I used it this way with my HR10 for years. It's a shame that D* only partially enabled the second tuner.
> 
> BJ


2-hour limit is here to stay. You can crow about it until the cows come home. Might I suggest a daily recording for the show or timeslot you are interested in and a Keep-At-Most of one. Programs always there, never have to clean up, and the best part? you don't have to rewind 90 minutes and hope that you got it all, you know, in case you get delayed on the way home and miss that ever crucial 90 minute window.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> It's random content .. pure happenstance that the background tuner is on and there might be something you want to watch. Probably your "favorite" channel is already the foreground channel which is buffered. I know that's the case in our house.


Your house has a Tivo S3 or Tivo HD? You have cable and D*? I've told you how a modern Tivo works before, and yet you don't believe me. Why won't you believe me? Is it the way I type? 

The tuners will naturally be on your favorite channels! This isn't theory, it's based on experience! After recordings, it stays on that channel and fills the buffer. My kids, for example, will pretty much watch anything on Nickelodeon even if was recording something else on it an hour ago but we're not recording anything on it now. The buffer is bound to have a program in it that they'll watch. Also, some people intentionally switch both tuners to channels they like before they go to bed.

Finally, *for the maintenance updates, Tivo automatically switches back to the previous channel when it completes*. So the content will not be random, and can actually be requested.

This is a legitimate complaint against DoublePlay. I was taught that a use case is always valid even when:
1. Most of your competing products support it but yours doesn't. That makes your product inferior in this area. Deal with it. Take action. You can compensate for it (i.e. 90 minute buffer), fix it, or acknowledge it. But you can't deny it.
2. You personally don't use the product like that. Who cares how you use it? It's how your customers end up using it that counts. Sometimes they use your product in creative and unusual ways, and that ends up being your distinguishing feature!
3. The use cases are contradictory. Sometimes people want to use your product one way, and sometimes they want to use it another way. Flexibility is usually a plus as long as it doesn't get too complicated.

So, DoublePlay is a double (perfect name). It's nice, but it's not the home run some people were hoping for.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Well put. No, this may not have been everything that everyone was hoping for. I do think it's a good solution for many people and the bottom line is that (as far as I know) no dual buffering solution is perfect and all of them embody some sort of compromise. 

I happen to like the choice of compromise that DIRECTV made more than the choice that TiVo made. Clearly we disagree on the matter.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

bobcamp1 said:


> The tuners will naturally be on your favorite channels! This isn't theory, it's based on experience! After recordings, it stays on that channel and fills the buffer...
> 2. You personally don't use the product like that. Who cares how you use it? It's how your customers end up using it that counts. Sometimes they use your product in creative and unusual ways, and that ends up being your distinguishing feature!
> 3. The use cases are contradictory. Sometimes people want to use your product one way, and sometimes they want to use it another way. Flexibility is usually a plus as long as it doesn't get too complicated.
> 
> So, DoublePlay is a double (perfect name). It's nice, but it's not the home run some people were hoping for.


As I've mentioned before, I too would like that feature and understand your point of view. Although your analogy of it being a double, is your opinion (and maybe dreadlk's as well). I consider DP a triple, with the bases loaded. And its possible that I'm one of the customers that is in the majority.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I do find the time out thing... I guess the best way I can say it is interesting. It doesn't really affect how I use DLB but is interesting.

Interesting because we were told "something better" then DLB is coming. IMHO, while accomplishing what _I_ want, DoublePlay is not "something better".

I kind of wonder if the way it operates now is going to be part of something else later on that would be "something better".

For now DoublePlay accomplishes what's important to me (and a lot of others). The effect of having to activate is negligible and thus I'm happy. 

...but is it going somewhere later on...

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> The tuners will naturally be on your favorite channels! This isn't theory, it's based on experience! After recordings, it stays on that channel and fills the buffer. My kids, for example, will pretty much watch anything on Nickelodeon even if was recording something else on it an hour ago but we're not recording anything on it now. The buffer is bound to have a program in it that they'll watch. Also, some people intentionally switch both tuners to channels they like before they go to bed.


In this context, by saying "bound too," you are suggesting that there is a near 100% chance that the background buffer is going to be the most important content available when you just happen to walk in to the room. I'd be willing to be that if you actually wrote down (1) the times that you can into the room after having been away for a long period (DoublePlay off) and (2) the times that you found the background tuner so enticing that you HAD to watch that program (including your kids) without switching the channel once, that you'd be surprised.

I don't think that there is anyway you can convince me that (on the whole), the background tuner is more important than the foreground tuner (again after being gone a long time) and that both the foreground tuner and the background tuner have content that can't be missed (meaning non-random).

What I am convinced of is that most people here will find DoublePlay to fit very nicely into their routines. While always-on sure seems nice on the surface, not having it isn't a deal breaker.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> In this context, by saying "bound too," you are suggesting that there is a near 100% chance that the background buffer is going to be the most important content available when you just happen to walk in to the room. I'd be willing to be that if you actually wrote down (1) the times that you can into the room after having been away for a long period (DoublePlay off) and (2) the times that you found the background tuner so enticing that you HAD to watch that program (including your kids) without switching the channel once, that you'd be surprised.
> 
> I don't think that there is anyway you can convince me that (on the whole), the background tuner is more important than the foreground tuner (again after being gone a long time) and that both the foreground tuner and the background tuner have content that can't be missed (meaning non-random).
> 
> What I am convinced of is that most people here will find DoublePlay to fit very nicely into their routines. While always-on sure seems nice on the surface, not having it isn't a deal breaker.


And not having DLB in some form is a deal breaker for some people...where's Que when you nee him? :lol:

Mike


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> I do find the time out thing... I guess the best way I can say it is interesting. It doesn't really affect how I use DLB but is interesting.
> 
> Interesting because we were told "something better" then DLB is coming. IMHO, while accomplishing what _I_ want, DoublePlay is not "something better".
> 
> ...


I agree, I like the way DP is implemented but it isn't the "something better", that I took to mean "more than dlb". Yes, I do think "something better" is still down the road. Or it could be MRV.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

I could see people's problems with DoublePlay if it had a strict 2 hour time limit but it does not with the anykeypress(except volume and mute) feature when you press a key on the remote control the 2 hour time limit resets back to 2 hours. So it's possible to keep DoublePlay going all day long as long as you are watching programs.

If you don't like DoublePlay? just don't activate it or put the DVR in standby for 5 minutes,or perform a System Test or wait 2 hours without touching the remote control and DoublePlay is gone.It's the best of both worlds.Plus which other company has 2- 90 minute Dual Live Buffers?.


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## rebkell (Sep 9, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> I could see people's problems with DoublePlay if it had a strict 2 hour time limit but it does not with the anykeypress(except volume and mute) feature when you press a key on the remote control the 2 hour time limit resets back to 2 hours. So it's possible to keep DoublePlay going all day long as long as you are watching programs.
> 
> If you don't like DoublePlay? just don't activate it or put the DVR in standby for 5 minutes,or perform a System Test or wait 2 hours without touching the remote control and DoublePlay is gone.It's the best of both worlds.Plus which other company has 2- 90 minute Dual Live Buffers?.


I guess the strange thing is why do you have to activate it? I don't really understand why it needs to be activated? I didn't realize that any button presses other than the ones described above kept the buffering alive. If any key press automatically started it, that would seem more appropriate. It's no big deal to me, I haven't had it and I normally have all my recordings set up in advance so the dual buffer wasn't something I was just dying to have, but I do believe I'd probably use it more if it was always working instead of having to be activated.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

rebkell said:


> I guess the strange thing is why do you have to activate it? I don't really understand why it needs to be activated? I didn't realize that any button presses other than the ones described above kept the buffering alive. If any key press automatically started it, that would seem more appropriate. It's no big deal to me, I haven't had it and I normally have all my recordings set up in advance so the dual buffer wasn't something I was just dying to have, but I do believe I'd probably use it more if it was always working instead of having to be activated.


Well that question has been answered so DirecTV can use the second tuner when not activated.I would guess that it's a good idea to also keep your features different that the other guys(you know who I mean).Also if I could have a feature that no one else has and I could patent it? I would.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rebkell said:


> I guess the strange thing is why do you have to activate it? I don't really understand why it needs to be activated? I didn't realize that any button presses other than the ones described above kept the buffering alive. If any key press automatically started it, that would seem more appropriate. It's no big deal to me, I haven't had it and I normally have all my recordings set up in advance so the dual buffer wasn't something I was just dying to have, but I do believe I'd probably use it more if it was always working instead of having to be activated.





Jhon69 said:


> Well that question has been answered so DirecTV can use the second tuner when not activated.I would guess that it's a good idea to also keep your features different that the other guys(you know who I mean).Also if I could have a feature that no one else has and I could patent it? I would.


Maybe as long as it's activated DirecTV won't try to access the background tuner.

I tend to be up early at times (3-4a.m.) and have actually had the buffer on the background tuner flushed to push something or other to the receiver (HDVR2). If DP is activated it won't do this until it times out. It's just a theory...:grin:

Mike


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Maybe as long as it's activated DirecTV won't try to access the background tuner.
> 
> I tend to be up early at times (3-4a.m.) and have actually had the buffer on the background tuner flushed to push something or other to the receiver (HDVR2). If DP is activated it won't do this until it times out. It's just a theory...:grin:
> 
> Mike


Good Call.Forgot about that one.:grin:


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> On the surface the bolded paragraph would seem to contradict to everything you've previously posted about DLB....Hmmmm...


There was a time when there was no DP and my preference was for it to not exist so that D* could work on other, more important, initiatives.

Now that we live in a time when DP exists, my preference is for it to function differently than it currently does.

I'm sure if I go back in time I could find a post you've made about the Arizona Cardinals and how they'd never stand a chance of getting to a Super Bowl. It doesn't mean you shouldn't post about the Cardinals anymore now that they have. Context.

BJ


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

*Doug Brott 2-hour limit is here to stay. *

Can you tell us why?

*You can crow about it until the cows come home. *

Thank you. I am going to create a thread called "What Are Your Thoughts On The DP 2-Hour Timeout?" and begin the campaign to bring FTSTB (full time second tuner buffering) back to the HR2X.

BJ


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

boltjames said:


> *Doug Brott 2-hour limit is here to stay. *
> 
> Can you tell us why?
> 
> ...


Yea, another DP thread beating a dead horse is just what we need.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> There was a time when there was no DP and my preference was for it to not exist so that D* could work on other, more important, initiatives.
> 
> Now that we live in a time when DP exists, my preference is for it to function differently than it currently does.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I thought you had said that even though it's here, nobody should be using DP, and it was contrary to the purpose of a DVR...and in this very thread...I guess I was wrong. 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php...talk.com/showpost.php?p=2214659&postcount=461
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2214660&postcount=462

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> *Doug Brott 2-hour limit is here to stay. *
> 
> Can you tell us why?
> 
> ...


I wonder how fast that'll get closed?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Doug Brott said:
> 
> 
> > 2-hour limit is here to stay.
> ...


Go for it .. You'll become an army of one as most folks will go on using DoublePlay as it will work well for most people. I still find it hard to understand how this unknown (e.g. random) content is so vital yet doesn't warrant recording. If it really is important, then record it.

And one last thing .. It sure would be nice if you would use the vBulletin quote facility rather than coming up with your own method of quoting what other people say.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> Go for it [your proposed poll on full-time buffering, that is]...
> 
> And one last thing .. It sure would be nice if you would use the vBulletin quote facility rather than coming up with your own method of quoting what other people say.


Yes, go for it, Bolt ... but please be sure to include these two choices: "Let D* Cinema do its thing in the background, but afterwards revert to buffering (1) my designated channel, or (2) the channel previously tuned."

I second the motion that you [Bolt] should stop confusing me with your own method of "quoting."


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

*Doug Brott Go for it .. You'll become an army of one as most folks will go on using DoublePlay as it will work well for most people. I still find it hard to understand how this unknown (e.g. random) content is so vital yet doesn't warrant recording. If it really is important, then record it.*

For the 10th time, it isn't "random content". It's a deliberate manner by which to have your favorite channel constantly record and archive a rolling 90 minute period of content. If I don't have to set up repeating recordings for SNY from 4pm to 8pm every night yet still have the ability to see a rolling portion of that content when I arrive home that's a great thing. Effortless.

I'm sure you enjoy coming home from work, turning on the DVR, seeing that you're 3/4 of the way through "Animal House" and rewinding to the beginning in the active tuner's 90 minute buffer. It's merely doubling the fun. And, if you have a home with a wife/kids/nanny who are constantly using Tuner 1 its great to have a secret Tuner 2 buffering those 90 minutes without the risk of being disturbed.

*And one last thing .. It sure would be nice if you would use the vBulletin quote facility rather than coming up with your own method of quoting what other people say.*

I didn't realize it was a TOS violation. Show me how to take a lengthy post and respond to it in chunks in a different way and I'll be happy to consider it, seeing how confusing this is for you.

BJ


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Sorry, I thought you had said that even though it's here, nobody should be using DP, and it was contrary to the purpose of a DVR...and in this very thread...I guess I was wrong.
> 
> Mike


What my posts state is that using the second tuner as "Superjump" is counter to what the DVR's purpose is. That jumping back/forth/back/forth between two tuners to watch two programs concurrently is precisely the situaton that the DVR is trying to help you avoid.

What my posts also state is that using the second tuner as, get ready for it, a _second tuner_ is what the DVR was designed to do.

Using the second tuner as a way to jump back/forth in a aberrant, anomalistic, anomalous, atypical, bizarre, curious, deviant, deviate, deviating, divergent, eccentric, exceptional, extraordinary, fantastic, funny, grody, gross, heteroclite, heterodox, heteromorphic, irregular, odd, off-base, off-color, out of line, peculiar, preternatural, queer, screwy, strange, uncommon, unexpected, unnatural, unorthodox, unusual, weird manner = bad.

Using the second tuner as a way to constantly record 90 minutes of your favorite channel without hitting the "record" button = good.

Savvy?

BJ


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

So ... did I miss anything in this thread since Noon last Saturday?


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> So ... did I miss anything in this thread since Noon last Saturday?


Nope.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> So ... did I miss anything in this thread since Noon last Saturday?


 !rolling :thats: Just the usual :beatdeadhorse:


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> What my posts state is that using the second tuner as "Superjump" is counter to what the DVR's purpose is. That jumping back/forth/back/forth between two tuners to watch two programs concurrently is precisely the situaton that the DVR is trying to help you avoid.
> 
> What my posts also state is that using the second tuner as, get ready for it, a _second tuner_ is what the DVR was designed to do.
> 
> ...


How is using the second tuner to buffer continuously any less aberrant?

And who are you to make the "DVR Proclamation?" !rolling

Oh, and most of SNY is repeated after you get home. I don't think you really have a problem with the 2hr time limit...


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

boltjames...here's a solution:

Since you can afford a Nanny, I assume you can afford a new DVR. This new DVR can be your "secret" tuner that no one can touch. You can tune it to whatever you're dear bolt-heart desires and it will always have that 90-minute buffer all for you when you get home.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

boltjames said:


> What my posts state is that using the second tuner as "Superjump" is counter to what the DVR's purpose is. That jumping back/forth/back/forth between two tuners to watch two programs concurrently is precisely the situaton that the DVR is trying to help you avoid.
> Savvy?
> BJ


Dude I am trying to follow you, but to be honest I just dont get it!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Dude I am trying to follow you, but to be honest I just dont get it!


He makes it up as he's going along and it changes...which is why it's so hard to understand.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

You know what the best thing about this thread is?, it is a great post count builder. 
(Oh, here's another one. My count is building fast). :lol:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> For the 10th time, it isn't "random content".


It doesn't matter if you say it 100 times or a 1000 times, there is nothing that you can say to me to make me believe that it isn't random. Sure, you might like it by happenstance, but that's it.

Oh, and the 90-minute foreground buffer is still there .. you haven't lost that. What you don't have is the 90-minute background buffer that you never had to begin with. :shrug:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Doug Brott said:
> 
> 
> > And one last thing .. It sure would be nice if you would use the vBulletin quote facility rather than coming up with your own method of quoting what other people say.
> ...


Not a TOS violation, just being respectful to the other multi-thousand views of this thread ..

Here's a short lesson:

Quoted material goes in between [QUOTE][/QUOTE] tags. So if you type the following in the edit window:

[QUOTE]This is the material I'm quoting[/QUOTE]

it will look like this on the screen


> This is the material I'm quoting


If you want to include the source, it will be something like this:

[quote="Doug Brott"]And one last thing .. It sure would be nice if you would use the vBulletin quote facility rather than coming up with your own method of quoting what other people say.[/QUOTE

which will look like this:


Doug Brott said:


> And one last thing .. It sure would be nice if you would use the vBulletin quote facility rather than coming up with your own method of quoting what other people say.


Note the use of '=Doug Brott' to indicate the person you are quoting and the options ';2218968' to provide a link to the material you are quoting. These will appear in the edit window if you simply hit the 'quote' button in the post you are quoting.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

Despite Bolt's inconsistencies I tend to agree with him that the DirecTV part time DLB is disappointing and rather useless to many people. I would agree that the background tuner is not random as I tend to keep a business or news channel on all day long or even days at a time as my previous channel or DLB background channel if I were to use it. Seems it won't matter how many times I say it or how I say it won't matter so this will be my last post on this subject. Unless something else interesting happens.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> Despite Bolt's inconsistencies I tend to agree with him that the DirecTV part time DLB is disappointing and rather useless to many people. I would agree that the background tuner is not random as I tend to keep a business or news channel on all day long or even days at a time as my previous channel or DLB background channel if I were to use it. Seems it won't matter how many times I say it or how I say it won't matter so this will be my last post on this subject. Unless something else interesting happens.


SO if you want to keep a business channel in the background, activate DP. As long as you use the remote once every 2 hours, both buffers will be active. That way as your day progresses, you'll always have both buffers running. Not a big deal.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

even the 5 second replay (btw, why isn't only 5 seconds a bigger deal than 2 hr dp limit?? ) will reset 2 hour counter.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I guess... you know what... I give up. Here's a novel idea... if you don't like DoublePlay, don't use it.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I guess... you know what... I give up. Here's a novel idea... if you don't like DoublePlay, don't use it.


Amen!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I guess... you know what... I give up. Here's a novel idea... if you don't like DoublePlay, don't use it.


Hmmmmm...logic in a discussion...now _that's_ a novel idea. :grin:

Mike


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## qwsxz (May 12, 2008)

Just to throw in my two cents:

I love DP and have used it every viewing session that I have had since getting it. I do not mind one bit the double down press. It it a great new feature and I think better than Tivo's implementation (longer buffer, channel changes). 

Way to go D* dev and the CE team! I am tempted to join CE, but with only one receiver and a wife I don't think that is going to happen.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Don't forget that if DoublePlay were turned on 100% of the time, you would lose access to 90 minutes of recording capacity. As it is now, with DoublePlay turned off you can use that 90 minutes for scheduled recordings.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

David MacLeod said:


> even the 5 second replay (btw, why isn't only 5 seconds a bigger deal than 2 hr dp limit?? ) will reset 2 hour counter.


Only 5 seconds is a big deal to me as well, especially because it sometimes takes 2 or 3 seconds to act, leading you to press it too many times. The sluggishness of the HR21 means that I often get only a 2-second replay.



Stuart Sweet said:


> I guess... you know what... I give up. Here's a novel idea... if you don't like DoublePlay, don't use it.


I probably won't use it. Haven't used it yet, after a couple of days with the new release.


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## kintaro (Dec 27, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Don't forget that if DoublePlay were turned on 100% of the time, you would lose access to 90 minutes of recording capacity. As it is now, with DoublePlay turned off you can use that 90 minutes for scheduled recordings.


Why would this be the case? With my ReplayTV I was able to have DLB for hours. And I also miss the accidental channel change prompt from my ReplayTV, maybe D* can look into that.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

kintaro said:


> Why would this be the case? With my ReplayTV I was able to have DLB for hours. And I also miss the accidental channel change prompt from my ReplayTV, maybe D* can look into that.


This is the case because the background buffer uses the user space on the HDD. Even on your ReplayTV, those hours of DLB had to be stored somewhere, they were not magically held in a space-time continuum.

The additional buffer time comes from the user side of the HDD. With DoublePlay off, that "time" is zero minutes. With DoublePlay on, that "time" can be up to 90 minutes. With DoublePlay on 24/7, that "time" would be most always at 90 minutes, thus causing you to lose that 90 minutes of overall capacity.

Just something to consider.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

kintaro said:


> Why would this be the case? With my ReplayTV I was able to have DLB for hours.


The "this" you're referring to is the use of available space on your hard disk, that's all. No doubt your ReplayTV used up space as well.


> And I also miss the accidental channel change prompt from my ReplayTV, maybe D* can look into that.


Lotsa luck with that. When I listed the lack of a channel-change prompt (when behind in the live buffer) as one of the many inadequacies of the HR2x software, many fans dismissed or minimized my complaint, saying (in essence) "_I've _learned the hard way to keep my mitts off the channel-change keys, and so should _you_. _I_ don't want to see any additional prompts, no matter how much they'd benefit _you_."


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## mikek (May 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> This is the case because the background buffer uses the user space on the HDD. Even on your ReplayTV, those hours of DLB had to be stored somewhere, they were not magically held in a space-time continuum.
> 
> The additional buffer time comes from the user side of the HDD. With DoublePlay off, that "time" is zero minutes. With DoublePlay on, that "time" can be up to 90 minutes. With DoublePlay on 24/7, that "time" would be most always at 90 minutes, thus causing you to lose that 90 minutes of overall capacity.
> 
> Just something to consider.


Replaytv used 100% of available disk space for the buffer. It only had one buffer and if you changed channels or recorded something then you lost the buffer. It wasn't really that great. And when you had like a 20 hour buffer going the CPU got bogged down.

-mk


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## ht2 (Dec 14, 2008)

DoublePlay is nice addition but I also like 24/7 idea better.
I am willing to give up 90min of recording space for that.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

ht2 said:


> DoublePlay is nice addition but I also like 24/7 idea better.
> I am willing to give up 90min of recording space for that.


24/7 is not going to happen ...


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## pjsauter (Jan 6, 2008)

gitarzan said:


> Despite Bolt's inconsistencies I tend to agree with him that the DirecTV part time DLB is disappointing and rather useless to many people.


The *real* bummer is that the people who seem to find it "rather useless" have gotten the update, whereas I - who would actually have a use for it, at least on Sundays - have yet to receive it. Oh well, I reckon I'll just appreciate it that much more when I get it.


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Don't forget that if DoublePlay were turned on 100% of the time, you would lose access to 90 minutes of recording capacity. As it is now, with DoublePlay turned off you can use that 90 minutes for scheduled recordings.


That's misleading. The buffers merely would stay on the channels they just recorded, starting a fresh 90 minute buffer on each. Perhaps what you're describing is how DP has been programmed to operate, but it doesn't mean that's the proper execution.

The HR10 did it this way. Did it this way for years. Twin 30 minute buffers, always active, always buffering. If a scheduled recording changed a channel, that channel got buffered when the recording stopped. If a user jumped between channels back/forth and a scheduled recording was about to begin, the user had to stop jumping with buffers or stop the scheduled recording.

We're not reinventing the wheel here. D* has brought back most of the DLB features. They just brought back the _wrong _ones.

BJ


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I guess... you know what... I give up. Here's a novel idea... if you don't like DoublePlay, don't use it.


I have a better idea: Since it seems like screaming and ranting endlessly lobbying for DLB on DBS worked for the 'Buffer Jumper' minority, perhaps screaming and ranting and endlessly lobbying for the elimination of the 2 hour timeout on DBS will work for the '180 Minute Live Buffer' majority.

BJ


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Oh joy, it's time for our nightly show..."boltjames' Guide to the Correct Way to Use & Design DLB."


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> And who are you to make the "DVR Proclamation?"


It would have been nice if the decision-makers on the implementation of DP spent some time speaking to the average user majority instead of the CE tweaker minority. So, since I think I'm the only average user in this thread, I think I'm well-suited for the job.

When McDonalds looks for feedback on new products, they pull together a group of average fast-food consumers. They don't go polling diners as they exit Lutèce.

BJ


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Your house has a Tivo S3 or Tivo HD? You have cable and D*? I've told you how a modern Tivo works before, and yet you don't believe me. Why won't you believe me? Is it the way I type?
> 
> *The tuners will naturally be on your favorite channels! This isn't theory, it's based on experience! After recordings, it stays on that channel and fills the buffer. My kids, for example, will pretty much watch anything on Nickelodeon even if was recording something else on it an hour ago but we're not recording anything on it now. The buffer is bound to have a program in it that they'll watch. Also, some people intentionally switch both tuners to channels they like before they go to bed. *
> 
> ...


bobcamp:

You are the wind beneath my wings. Another from the average D* majority is heard from. Bravo.

More D* users use the dual tuners in the way you describe than in the way others describe. It's best purpose is to be a second tuner, quietly buffering 90 minutes of whatever channel you set it on last, so that when you tune to it hours later you have content you likely want to watch. Especially valid in a house with children who don't set up recordings and watch spontaneously.

Keep on posting. D* will hear us.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> It would have been nice if the decision-makers on the implementation of DP spent some time speaking to the average user majority instead of the CE tweaker minority. So, since I think I'm the only average user in this thread, I think I'm well-suited for the job.
> 
> When McDonalds looks for feedback on new products, they pull together a group of average fast-food consumers. They don't go polling diners as they exit Lutèce.
> 
> BJ


And you know DIRECTV didn't actually do that? !rolling

Oh yeah, you don't even use DLB, celebrated it wasn't on the HR2x, and want the second tuner disabled. !rolling

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

boltjames said:


> I have a better idea: Since it seems like screaming and ranting endlessly lobbying for DLB on DBS worked for the 'Buffer Jumper' minority, perhaps screaming and ranting and endlessly lobbying for the elimination of the 2 hour timeout on DBS will work for the '180 Minute Live Buffer' majority.
> 
> BJ


Better idea? !rolling

You'll be happily afforded the same singular thread as the DLB group needed. With the same rules--no bumping.


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Oh yeah, you don't even use DLB, celebrated it wasn't on the HR2x, and want the second tuner disabled.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Show me a post I made where I said that having the background tuner have a second 90 minute buffer for the purpose of constantly recording a stealthy favorite channel was a bad thing. Go ahead, show me. 706 posts. Find one.

To set the record straight:

I am against the concept of dual tuner Buffer Jumping. Of watching two programs simultaneously and hopping back/forth/back/forth/back/forth like an impatient child. After all, the DVR was invented to help viewers avoid that very situation. It's here now, no reason to talk about it any more.

I am for the concept of two-tuner Buffer Archiving. The object there is not to jump back/forth/back/forth/back/forth between two simultaneous programs. Instead, it's for a viewer to record a favorite channel constantly in the background so that one can watch programs and navigate from channel to channel on Tuner 1 with the comfort of knowing that a solid 90 minutes is being buffered of the stored channel on Tuner 2. That more important feature is missing, need to discuss it.

Buffer Jumping = Bad.

180 Minute Dual Tuner Buffer Archiving = Good.

We clear?

BJ


----------



## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> 24/7 is not going to happen ...


Is it not going to happen just like "Tivo is never coming back".


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> I probably won't use it. Haven't used it yet, after a couple of days with the new release.


You don't like something you haven't even used? Why are you even posting if you haven't used it so you can give real first hand knowledge of your experience.. All your posts are just conjecture based on other peoples information instead of actually using it to see if it actually causes YOU any issues.... Too FUNNY!!!!!!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Buffer Jumping = Bad.
> 
> 180 Minute Dual Tuner Buffer Archiving = Good.
> 
> ...


Lot of Sunday Ticket viewers who would disagree with you on that. BJ thinks his way is the only way .. BJ is wrong. As for that extra buffer time, sure, it'd be nice but it aint gonna happen. DIRECTV uses that other tuner for other features on the set top box.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

luckydob said:


> Is it not going to happen just like "Tivo is never coming back".


 nice reference .. and yes, when I said that, I had very, very solid information .. apparently, things changed ..

Now, 24/7 buffering, perhaps one day 5 years down the road under certain specialized circumstances that cannot remotely be foreseen it will appear, but again, very, very solid information .. 24/7 buffering is not going to happen.

Remember, the TiVo (1) isn't back yet and (2) even when it does come back, it will be long, long, long after my comments were made. 24/7 buffering will not happen either, but sure, if you want to leave a .0001% chance of it happening. I'm good with that.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Show me a post I made where I said that having the background tuner have a second 90 minute buffer for the purpose of constantly recording a stealthy favorite channel was a bad thing. Go ahead, show me. 706 posts. Find one.


You are on record for post after post stating unequivocally that having access to the background tuner is bad; that it is stressful; that it was unintended; that it is a useless feature; that is was *contrary* to the purpose of a DVR; *that it shouldn't be part of the HR2x platform.* Even going so far as to suggest that all threads on the subject of DLB should close because it deters people from the HR20 and would be bad for DirecTV and that it was your "job" do defend the HR20. Here a just a couple of examples.

Thread - Dual Live Buffers
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1340090&postcount=2272
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1348129&postcount=2321

Thread - What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1530973&postcount=1209
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1553831&postcount=1413

Thread - Proposed DLB Sticky: Dual Live Buffers (DLB) Catch All Thread
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=997356&postcount=26
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=997447&postcount=30
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=997533&postcount=33

So help me out here. Which is it; having access to the second tuner is bad or that having access to the second tuner is good? It can't be both ways.

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> That's misleading. The buffers merely would stay on the channels they just recorded, starting a fresh 90 minute buffer on each. Perhaps what you're describing is how DP has been programmed to operate, but it doesn't mean that's the proper execution.
> 
> The HR10 did it this way. Did it this way for years. Twin 30 minute buffers, always active, always buffering. If a scheduled recording changed a channel, that channel got buffered when the recording stopped. If a user jumped between channels back/forth and a scheduled recording was about to begin, the user had to stop jumping with buffers or stop the scheduled recording.
> 
> ...


There's nothing misleading about it. If the second tuner is buffering 24/7 then 90 minutes of space would reserved for that buffer and be gone from the avaliable storage. Whether or not it was 90 minutes long it would still be reserved.

Mike


----------



## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

MicroBeta said:


> So help me out here. Which is it; having access to the second tuner is bad or that having access to the second tuner is good? It can't be both ways.
> 
> Mike


its Ba-ood ????


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> There's nothing misleading about it. If the second tuner is buffering 24/7 then 90 minutes of space would reserved for that buffer and be gone from the avaliable storage. Whether or not it was 90 minutes long it would still be reserved.
> 
> Mike


Correct, if the point of 24/7 buffering is to have a second 90 minute buffer waiting for you (remember, that 1st buffer has been and always will be waiting for you .. that did NOT go away), then most of the time, that 90 minutes will be full. Sure, when you change channels, that 90 minutes goes back to zero, 90 minutes later it's full again. There would be a propensity towards a full buffer thus equating to 90 minutes of usage.

Under the existing implementation, there is a propensity towards zero as folks (in general) only turn on DoublePlay when needed. Priority remains with scheduled recordings rather than the review buffer. Besides, that 90 minutes is still 50% more buffer than the 60 minutes with TiVo.


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Show me a post I made where I said that having the background tuner have a second 90 minute buffer for the purpose of constantly recording a stealthy favorite channel was a bad thing. Go ahead, show me. 706 posts. Find one.
> 
> To set the record straight:
> 
> ...


Well, according to you: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1553831&postcount=1413


> The fact that the second tuner is there and buffering when DLB is present makes you very aware of that fact. Makes you not only have to decide what program you want to watch right now, but also cognizent of the second tuner and what it's tuned to. More often than not, it's causing you to pay attention to it and tune it to something you might want to see. *That's stressful, confusing, and de-focusing...<snip>DLB creates a hassled, worrisome, time-spastic experience.*


So...If DLB is so, "stressful, confusing, and de-focusing," and it, "creates a hassled, worrisome, time-spastic experience," then WHY DO YOU WANT A 2ND TUNER BUFFERING 24-7 OF YOUR FAVORITE CHANNEL?

The "average user," as you claim to be, should not want something that's stressful, confusing, de-focusing, a hassle, worrisome, & time-spastic.

Again, you don't understand your own logic. How can we?


----------



## Mike_55 (Jul 4, 2008)

Hey Folks,

I’ve been lurking and enjoying this sight for a long time and I must say that this thread has been fun to follow. I never had a need to post as any issues I have had always seem to be addressed here. I’ve always followed the premise that it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

My question is – 

Is there any kind of programmable remote that could be set up with a macro to send a signal (one of the RC64 remote keys, possibly the "exit" key) to the HR2X every couple of hours when you are not watching so that DoublePlay, once turned on, would receive the remote signal and continue buffering on the background tuner? It would probably only be IR capable but might be a solution to those who want the continuous 90 minute buffer on both tuners. Personally, I'm happy with the way it is but everyone is different.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I believe it can be done with serial control but I don't think there's an actual remote with a timer.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike_55 said:


> Hey Folks,
> 
> I've been lurking and enjoying this sight for a long time and I must say that this thread has been fun to follow. I never had a need to post as any issues I have had always seem to be addressed here. I've always followed the premise that it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.
> 
> ...


Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

I don't know of any but I would think there is a programmable universal with some kind of timer.

Maybe one of JP1 people have something for your.

Try AVSForum or one of the remote forums. You might find more help there.

I wonder if you could keep DP going indefinitely? :scracthin

Mike


----------



## pjsauter (Jan 6, 2008)

Mike_55 said:


> Is there any kind of programmable remote that could be set up with a macro to send a signal (one of the RC64 remote keys, possibly the "exit" key) to the HR2X every couple of hours when you are not watching so that DoublePlay, once turned on, would receive the remote signal and continue buffering on the background tuner? It would probably only be IR capable but might be a solution to those who want the continuous 90 minute buffer on both tuners. Personally, I'm happy with the way it is but everyone is different.


The SONY RM-AV3000/AV3100 remotes have a timer that supports 12 macros (as I recall, you could set them up to fire at a specific time on multiple days, so you could set up 12 events to run every day at two hour increments). I have one kicking around someplace, but haven't used it in a while. They also have the AX4000/4000A models, which I think also have timers/clocks.


----------



## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Check out this thread, http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=158300&highlight=serial+control

I've been using Serial control on one of my HR20s to set DP and schedule it on since the testing of DP. Works great.


----------



## MarkEHansen (Sep 4, 2008)

dennisj00 said:


> Check out this thread, http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=158300&highlight=serial+control
> 
> I've been using Serial control on one of my HR20s to set DP and schedule it on since the testing of DP. Works great.


I tried to look at that thread, and get an error that I'm not authorized.

Which forum is it on?

Do I have to be subscribed to it to view the particular thread?

Thanks,


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

That's a thread in the Cutting Edge forum. Perhaps if you contact dennisj00 via private message he'll be able to work with you further. Discussion of Cutting Edge information isn't allowed outside that forum.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

MicroBeta said:


> You are on record for post after post stating unequivocally that having access to the background tuner is bad; that it is stressful; that it was unintended; that it is a useless feature; that is was *contrary* to the purpose of a DVR; *that it shouldn't be part of the HR2x platform.* Even going so far as to suggest that all threads on the subject of DLB should close because it deters people from the HR20 and would be bad for DirecTV and that it was your "job" do defend the HR20. Here a just a couple of examples.
> 
> Thread - Dual Live Buffers
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1340090&postcount=2272
> ...


Thank you, Mike. I haven't had time to do the research on this for BoltJames. !rolling

Cheers,
Tom


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> 24/7 buffering will not happen either, but sure, if you want to leave a .0001% chance of it happening. I'm good with that.


Going by the information that I have learned in this thread I would have to agree, I dont think D* will ever give up pushing content so that we can have a 24/7 buffers but maybe just maybe they might rewrite the firmware to detect a high speed internet connection and use that instead of the tuner when possible.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm not going to insist on 24/7 buffering, or ask D* Cinema to go away. All I'm asking is that D* restart background buffering whenever it doesn't need that tuner, using either a channel I specify or the last channel tuned. That's not too much to ask, is it?


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Mike_55 said:


> My question is -
> 
> Is there any kind of programmable remote that could be set up with a macro to send a signal (one of the RC64 remote keys, possibly the "exit" key) to the HR2X every couple of hours when you are not watching so that DoublePlay, once turned on, would receive the remote signal and continue buffering on the background tuner? It would probably only be IR capable but might be a solution to those who want the continuous 90 minute buffer on both tuners. Personally, I'm happy with the way it is but everyone is different.


I am going to go out on a limb on this one; i have no proof, but from all my past experiences with the HR2X I would bet the farm that if you did this the receiver would reset itself every day or two trying to fix what it thinks is a problem and try to get the Tuner freed up.
IOW this might make your system unstable.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> I'm not going to insist on 24/7 buffering, or ask D* Cinema to go away. All I'm asking is that D* restart background buffering whenever it doesn't need that tuner, using either a channel I specify or the last channel tuned. That's not too much to ask, is it?


IMHO if it becomes a kind of Random event then it's pretty much useless!


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Better idea? !rolling
> 
> You'll be happily afforded the same singular thread as the DLB group needed. With the same rules--no bumping.


Tom it's nice to see that Bolt has got you rolling around so much


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

boltjames said:


> I have a better idea: Since it seems like screaming and ranting endlessly lobbying for DLB on DBS worked for the 'Buffer Jumper' minority, perhaps screaming and ranting and endlessly lobbying for the elimination of the 2 hour timeout on DBS will work for the '180 Minute Live Buffer' majority.
> 
> BJ


For the record, I have no evidence that the various DLB threads here ever factored into the discussion at DIRECTV. I do know that dual buffering was discussed and planned at DIRECTV far earlier than most people think, and that the vast majority of the "must have DLB" posts actually took place after the decision was made to make dual buffers part of the HR2x.

In general, and I say this to all of you, not just to boltjames, I've found that intelligent discussion works better than "screaming and ranting and endlessly lobbying" most times, especially when you're part of an admitted minority.


----------



## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> You are on record for post after post stating unequivocally that having access to the background tuner is bad; that it is stressful; that it was unintended; that it is a useless feature; that is was *contrary* to the purpose of a DVR; *that it shouldn't be part of the HR2x platform.* Even going so far as to suggest that all threads on the subject of DLB should close because it deters people from the HR20 and would be bad for DirecTV and that it was your "job" do defend the HR20. Here a just a couple of examples.
> 
> Thread - Dual Live Buffers
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1340090&postcount=2272
> ...


Nice Job, Mike... maybe he'll stop, but I doubt it.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dennisj00 said:


> Check out this thread, http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=158300&highlight=serial+control
> 
> I've been using Serial control on one of my HR20s to set DP and schedule it on since the testing of DP. Works great.





MarkEHansen said:


> I tried to look at that thread, and get an error that I'm not authorized.
> 
> Which forum is it on?
> 
> ...





Stuart Sweet said:


> That's a thread in the Cutting Edge forum. Perhaps if you contact dennisj00 via private message he'll be able to work with you further. Discussion of Cutting Edge information isn't allowed outside that forum.


OK folks .. I've moved Dennis's thread to the HD-DVR forum now that DoublePlay is in the national release.


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> You are on record for post after post stating unequivocally that having access to the background tuner is bad; that it is stressful; that it was unintended; that it is a useless feature; that is was *contrary* to the purpose of a DVR; *that it shouldn't be part of the HR2x platform.* Even going so far as to suggest that all threads on the subject of DLB should close because it deters people from the HR20 and would be bad for DirecTV and that it was your "job" do defend the HR20. Here a just a couple of examples.
> 
> Thread - Dual Live Buffers
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1340090&postcount=2272
> ...


Man, that is a lot of food for t....(hought).


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> IMHO if it becomes a kind of Random event then it's pretty much useless!


This is exactly the reason .. The way it works now, you know that you either (1) have to start DoublePlay so that you can use it or (2) you are using DoublePlay (until you're done with that use session). The background tuner belongs to you and is "safe" from being hijacked by DIRECTV. With DoublePlay off, DIRECTV simply makes use of the background tuner as needed. If DoublePlay came back on the amount of time in the background buffer would be completely random from zero minutes to 90 minutes.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> If DoublePlay came back on the amount of time in the background buffer would be completely random from zero minutes to 90 minutes.


Exactly and I am not sure why anybody would find that useful.
I guess the only hope is if they redesign the hardware or they start to use the Ethernet connection as a pseudo tuner.

Receiver ON + Internet Connected = Buffer ON + Small job house keeping via Ethernet

Receiver OFF = Direct Cinema Downloads


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## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> So...If DLB is so, "stressful, confusing, and de-focusing," and it, "creates a hassled, worrisome, time-spastic experience," then WHY DO YOU WANT A 2ND TUNER BUFFERING 24-7 OF YOUR FAVORITE CHANNEL?
> 
> The "average user," as you claim to be, should not want something that's stressful, confusing, de-focusing, a hassle, worrisome, & time-spastic.
> 
> Again, you don't understand your own logic. How can we?


Here's my own logic, so you understand:

DLB for the purpose of Buffer Jumping = Bad.

DLB for the purpose of Background Tuner Archiving = Good.

There was a time that I was against DLB. Now that it's here, time to make the best of it and Buffer Jumping isn't the "best of it".

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Here's my own logic, so you understand:
> 
> DLB for the purpose of Buffer Jumping = Bad.
> 
> ...


In the face of a mountain of posts in every thread you've posted in that using DLB isn't stressful for anyone but you it would seem that you may be making a big deal out of nothing.

Here's your chance to provide sources to back up your statements.

How are you able to extrapolate your inability to handle swapping tuners to the general public? What sources do you have that the difficulity you experience "buffer jumping", as you call it, is "_stressful, confusing, and de-focusing_"?

Where is the evidence that refutes everyone else who has posted that they've never encountered such a thing?

You couldn't possibly be making such bold statements without some evidence that the general public suffers from added stress from swapping tuners on their DVRs...right?

Mike


----------



## boltjames (Sep 3, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> In the face of a mountain of posts in every thread you've posted in that using DLB isn't stressful for anyone but you it would seem that you may be making a big deal out of nothing.
> 
> Here's your chance to provide sources to back up your statements.
> 
> ...


Sorry, word games and logic traps aren't of interest to me. What's next, spelling errors?

There was a time I was having fun playing the contrarian. Not anymore. DP is a letdown. It's incomplete. I'm not the only poster with this point of view.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

boltjames said:


> Sorry, word games and logic traps aren't of interest to me. What's next, spelling errors?
> 
> There was a time I was having fun playing the contrarian. Not anymore. DP is a letdown. It's incomplete. I'm not the only poster with this point of view.
> 
> BJ


IOW, you got nothing. Where's the "logic trap"? It was a simple question. I'll take as you have no sources to back up your claims...Thanks

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

boltjames said:


> Sorry, word games and logic traps aren't of interest to me. What's next, spelling errors?
> 
> There was a time I was having fun playing the contrarian. Not anymore. DP is a letdown. It's incomplete. I'm not the only poster with this point of view.
> 
> BJ


logic traps? :scratchin How about a simple question, then?

Why is "Buffer Jumping" bad? Clearly it's a well-liked feature by many. Are they all wrong? (ok, 2 simple questions).


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> What sources do you have that the difficulity you experience "buffer jumping", as you call it, is "_stressful, confusing, and de-focusing_"?


What is "buffer jumping"? This is personally coined phrase, if ever I heard one, but I can't fathom what it means in the context of DoublePlay...I mean, how does one jump a buffer?


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Why is "Buffer Jumping" bad? Clearly it's a well-liked feature by many. Are they all wrong? (ok, 2 simple questions).


Now that's the second time I've seen it .. Just what is "buffer jumping"?

I can surf multiple channels on one tuner, so I'm switching or swapping channels if I use the PREV button.

I can hit the DOWN button to switch or swap tuners and then surf on either tuner using PREV.

Is "Buffer Jumping" supposed to be the same as "buffer swapping"? Why are new names being invented?


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> What is "buffer jumping"? This is personally coined phrase, if ever I heard one, but I can't fathom what it means in the context of DoublePlay...I mean, how does one jump a buffer?


What does it mean, your guess it as good as mine. :shrug:

I swap tuners but it seems that BJ "jumps buffers".

It's just some lable the BJ made up. 

Mike


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> What is "buffer jumping"? This is personally coined phrase, if ever I heard one, but I can't fathom what it means in the context of DoublePlay...I mean, how does one jump a buffer?


The Boltjames Bible of DVRs (which previously said DLB was a sin) has now made it known there was a translation problem converting ancient Hittite to English. Turns out DLB is permitted, but the use must be restricted to only one channel per tuner per day. Anything else is a major sin (and called "buffer jumping"). !rolling

Me, I'm happy with being able to enjoy a live viewing experience from time to time, greatly enhanced by DIRECTV. 

Cheers,
TOm


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Thanks for the explanations guys. I think I'm going to go *jump* my empty glass for a full one....


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Tom Robertson said:


> The Boltjames Bible of DVRs (which previously said DLB was a sin) has now made it known there was a translation problem converting ancient Hittite to English. Turns out DLB is permitted, but the use must be restricted to only one channel per tuner per day. Anything else is a major sin (and called "buffer jumping"). !rolling
> 
> Me, I'm happy with being able to enjoy a live viewing experience from time to time, greatly enhanced by DIRECTV.
> 
> ...


Thanks for translating for us...as any other explanation simply wouldn't make any sense.


----------



## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

Why, oh why, do people keep feeding the creature that likes to live under bridges??


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> The Boltjames Bible of DVRs (which previously said DLB was a sin) has now made it known there was a translation problem converting ancient Hittite to English. Turns out DLB is permitted, but the use must be restricted to only one channel per tuner per day. Anything else is a major sin (and called "buffer jumping"). !rolling
> 
> Me, I'm happy with being able to enjoy a live viewing experience from time to time, greatly enhanced by DIRECTV.
> 
> ...


If you wake up in the morning and start buffer jumping instead of swapping tuners?....You might be a *******...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> What is "buffer jumping"? This is personally coined phrase, if ever I heard one, but I can't fathom what it means in the context of DoublePlay...I mean, how does one jump a buffer?


Using DoublePlay to watch two things at one time .. which, if I believe is what most people want DoublePlay for in the first place .. :shrug:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jhon69 said:


> If you wake up in the morning and start buffer jumping instead of swapping tuners?....You might be a [strike]*******[/strike] techno-geek...


There, fixed it for you.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Using DoublePlay to watch two things at one time .. which, if I believe is what most people want DoublePlay for in the first place .. :shrug:


You're right Doug - that's its purpose in life.

It does what its supposed to, does it well, and there's nothing more to it.


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## Flyrx7 (Dec 26, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> This is exactly the reason .. The way it works now, you know that you either (1) have to start DoublePlay so that you can use it or (2) you are using DoublePlay (until you're done with that use session). The background tuner belongs to you and is "safe" from being hijacked by DIRECTV. With DoublePlay off, DIRECTV simply makes use of the background tuner as needed. If DoublePlay came back on the amount of time in the background buffer would be completely random from zero minutes to 90 minutes.


And yet that would be better than having to enable it all the time. So what if you have a partial secondary buffer of random content. And when did random content become such a bad thing anyway?. I've discovered more new shows by checking out what's in the buffer than surfing the guide.

When coming out of standby the primary buffer is still on, but yet it is also random content. If random content was bad then why is the primary buffering?

As for the 90 minutes of HD space, are you telling me that if the HD is full that DP won't work? I would think that the buffers would/should be on the other side of the partition. That just doesn't make sense that a primary machine function would be at the whim of available HD space on the user's partition. That would be a very poor design IMHO.

Frank


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Using DoublePlay to watch two things at one time .. which, if I believe is what most people want DoublePlay for in the first place .. :shrug:


That's correct Doug. Bolt believes that simultaneously watching two live programs (buffer jumping) via DP is an immoral act. It stresses out the mind and disrupts the peaceful Zen experience that a DVR should provide. Of course he also wants a "stealthy" background tuner to relieve him of the stress of having to actually schedule a recording for a recurring daily program.

I also completely understand the need for Directv to grab the background tuner for other purposes. It makes perfect business sense.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Flyrx7 said:


> And yet that would be better than having to enable it all the time. So what if you have a partial secondary buffer of random content. And when did random content become such a bad thing anyway?. I've discovered more new shows by checking out what's in the buffer than surfing the guide.
> 
> When coming out of standby the primary buffer is still on, but yet it is also random content. If random content was bad then why is the primary buffering?


It doesn't matter whether the random content is "bad" or not. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it is only random content. Certainly a percentage of time greater than zero and less than 100 there will be useful content there (random or not). I'm saying that 24/7 buffering of the background tuner is not going to happen and that it's not that big of a deal. That's all.



> As for the 90 minutes of HD space, are you telling me that if the HD is full that DP won't work? I would think that the buffers would/should be on the other side of the partition. That just doesn't make sense that a primary machine function would be at the whim of available HD space on the user's partition. That would be a very poor design IMHO.
> 
> Frank


Correct, if you are low on disk space, DoublePlay will not work.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Dr. Booda said:


> I also completely understand the need for Directv to grab the background tuner for other purposes. It makes perfect business sense.


Bingo! It's all about the bigger picture. The DoublePlay we now have may not be perfect for every single person, but it's certainly a forward step that most people will be quite happy with. That's the bottom line.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Using DoublePlay to watch two things at one time .. which, if I believe is what most people want DoublePlay for in the first place .. :shrug:


Yeah ... It appears that someone upthread somewhere had a problem with this, but what's the point of having a second tuner buffering live content if you never intend to use it? Just don't activate DP.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

:beatdeadhorse: Ok enough beating, Bolt is dead  even the fly's have started to circle him


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> Correct, if you are low on disk space, DoublePlay will not work [no matter how much space might be available in the PPV partition].


Right, because the fixed space allocated to hold D* Cinema movies you don't want to pay for is sacred. The marketing gods, y'know.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Using DoublePlay to *watch two things at one time *.. which, if I believe is what most people want DoublePlay for in the first place .. :shrug:


I missed that ability somewhere in all these threads . You really need PIP or two TV screens to do that.


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

Syzygy said:


> Right, because the fixed space allocated to hold D* Cinema movies you don't want to pay for is sacred. The marketing gods, y'know.


But, but...I don't have and never will have any Cinema movies so why should I give up recording space for a "feature" I'll never use?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> I missed that ability somewhere in all these threads . You really need PIP or two TV screens to do that.


It's all semantics .. Certainly by swapping back and forth you are not literally watching them at the exact same time, but the content is definitely interleaved such that you can start/finish to programs at roughly the same time.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> Right, because the fixed space allocated to hold D* Cinema movies you don't want to pay for is sacred. The marketing gods, y'know.





Jon J said:


> But, but...I don't have and never will have any Cinema movies so why should I give up recording space for a "feature" I'll never use?


It's a one-size-fits-all setup .. DIRECTV has their reserved space and that is not going to change regardless of whether you user DIRECTV Cinema or other features that may make use of that space. In any event, the DVR will hold roughly 50 or 100 hours of MPEG4 HD (depending on model) which is how it was sold to you.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Doug is right there. Keep in mind that you are (in 99% of cases) leasing this equipment from DIRECTV and that alone gives them the right to reserve space on it. If you own your DVR outright you have every right to put a larger drive in there to offset the reserved space.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Stuart Sweet said:


> ...If you own your DVR outright you have every right to put a larger drive in there to offset the reserved space.


And pray that it works, since it's unsupported and is often messed up by new releases. -- Oops, you weren't talking about an _external _drive, were you?


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## stlmike (Aug 24, 2007)

I tried out DLB yesterday while watching college football. The lack of auto-pause makes this much less useful to me. I want to actually _watch_ two games, so I need to have the second tuner pause until I come back to it. For all the debate on "should LB auto-pause or not" in this thread, why not just put an option in the menu to have it do whatever you like? How hard could it be?


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

"How hard could it be?" D* dittoheads and bitter-enders say "I won't stand for any more options! I like it the way it is, and you can lump it!"


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

stlmike said:


> I tried out DLB yesterday while watching college football. The lack of auto-pause makes this much less useful to me. I want to actually _watch_ two games, so I need to have the second tuner pause until I come back to it. For all the debate on "should LB auto-pause or not" in this thread, why not just put an option in the menu to have it do whatever you like? How hard could it be?


Record both games, start both from the LIST and use the {PREV} button to toggle, that process auto-pauses. It is an option.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

stlmike said:


> I tried out DLB yesterday while watching college football. The lack of auto-pause makes this much less useful to me. I want to actually _watch_ two games, so I need to have the second tuner pause until I come back to it. For all the debate on "should LB auto-pause or not" in this thread, why not just put an option in the menu to have it do whatever you like? How hard could it be?





Doug Brott said:


> Record both games, start both from the LIST and use the {PREV} button to toggle, that process auto-pauses. It is an option.


Or, you could just press "pause" before toggling to the other tuner.....very simple.


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## stlmike (Aug 24, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> Or, you could just press "pause" before toggling to the other tuner.....very simple.


True enough, but I'm still trying to understand why you would want to use DLB and have both tuners keep playing (not pause on tuner swap)? Don't you want to _watch_ both shows? It doesn't make sense, does it? I'm not trying to be dense or difficult, I'm just trying to understand!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

stlmike said:


> True enough, but I'm still trying to understand why you would want to use DLB and have both tuners keep playing (not pause on tuner swap)? Don't you want to _watch_ both shows? It doesn't make sense, does it? I'm not trying to be dense or difficult, I'm just trying to understand!


There are times when folks want to check back and forth with ability to rewind but don't really care for program to be "watched" unless an interesting bit comes up.

There is no "Keep Going" button so if it auto-paused there would be no way to tell the background buffer to continue playing.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

stlmike said:


> True enough, but I'm still trying to understand why you would want to use DLB and have both tuners keep playing (not pause on tuner swap)? Don't you want to _watch_ both shows? It doesn't make sense, does it? I'm not trying to be dense or difficult, I'm just trying to understand!


For a normal TV show, you are absolutely right. I would pause. Then again, I'd record them and watch them serially (most often.)

Where DLB/Double Play comes in most handy for me is live events like sports or breaking news. In those situations I'm not trying to watch every minute of both channels, I'm trying to go back and forth. If one channel has something interesting, I'll back up--because I have two buffers. 

Or I'll have a live event on tuner #1 that I'm watching closely (say the Packers ) and will flip to the redzone channel or another game during commercial breaks on the Packer game. I'm not really watching the second game, just getting updates.

As Doug said there isn't a button for "don't pause" when I switch tuners, but there are several options for pausing when I switch. (The oldest was recording both items and playing them from the list.)

I hope this clears it up. Thanks for asking so nicely. Happy to share our tips. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> :beatdeadhorse: Ok enough beating, Bolt is dead  even the fly's have started to circle him


Nope, he's just sleeping, someone will poke him and he'll come back with another ridiculous theory that he disproves himself!

And I have to re-interate, I can watch 2 football games at the same time with DP . . . 6 hours in 3. (press pause before switching tuners with the down arrow.)


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

stlmike said:


> True enough, but I'm still trying to understand why you would want to use DLB and have both tuners keep playing (not pause on tuner swap)? Don't you want to _watch_ both shows? It doesn't make sense, does it? I'm not trying to be dense or difficult, I'm just trying to understand!


Different strokes.....I may use it just surf between both tuners and not lose a buffer....Sometimes I may want to pause, and other times not to pause, which is just a one button choice. 
I'm fickle like that.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

stlmike said:


> True enough, but I'm still trying to understand why you would want to use DLB and have both tuners keep playing (not pause on tuner swap)? Don't you want to _watch_ both shows? It doesn't make sense, does it? I'm not trying to be dense or difficult, I'm just trying to understand!


I did this very thing last night. Was at a "friends" house watching the Emmy's, but wanted to keep an eye on the Cowboy's game. I didn't really want to watch every play, but wanted to be updated on the score, etc. I flipped to the Cowboys game during Emmy commercials, but had no need to keep it paused. Once or twice I used rewind to see how the latest score happened, but most of the time I just let it play on the background tuner.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Where DLB/Double Play comes in most handy for me is live events like sports or breaking news. In those situations I'm not trying to watch every minute of both channels, I'm trying to go back and forth. If one channel has something interesting, I'll back up--because I have two buffers.
> 
> Or I'll have a live event on tuner #1 that I'm watching closely (say the Packers ) and will flip to the redzone channel or another game during commercial breaks on the Packer game. I'm not really watching the second game, just getting updates.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying Tom but I still think that it could fall either way depending on what kind of viewer you are. Let me give you a football example.

Some people will want to a watch their main game, switch during the breaks and go to the secondary game and if its paused where they left it they will start playing and then fast forward through the dull parts to get to the interesting plays or touchdowns, they may do this till they run out of buffer then switch back to the main game, Fast Forward through the commercials and continue watching the main game in real time.

You can almost watch two games in real-time this way, so long as your only interest in the second game is the highlights. The difference here with your method is that you're just flipping back for the scores while other people want to see the Highlights/Touchdowns.

If you don't have the paused ability, you will have to rewind to find where you left off at the last commercial break and that takes way too long. Yes you can record but for some people this paused switch is what they hoped DLB would do for them


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> If you don't have the paused ability, you will have to rewind to find where you left off at the last commercial break and that takes way too long. Yes you can record but for some people this paused switch is what they hoped DLB would do for them


I think the point is to indicate why auto-pause should not be a feature. There is a {PAUSE} button on the remote. If you want to pause it, hit pause first, then down arrow.

For folks that don't want to pause how would you suggest they "not-pause" the program if there is an auto-pause feature?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> I get what you're saying Tom but I still think that it could fall either way depending on what kind of viewer you are. Let me give you a football example.
> 
> Some people will want to a watch their main game, switch during the breaks and go to the secondary game and if its paused where they left it they will start playing and then fast forward through the dull parts to get to the interesting plays or touchdowns, they may do this till they run out of buffer then switch back to the main game, Fast Forward through the commercials and continue watching the main game in real time.
> 
> ...


If you want to watch both games, record them. That option has been around even longer.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

So why not have an option in the Menu????? Best of both worlds!

IMO the posistion you guys take is what I think frustrates a lot of DBS forum users, it's the way it is, you guys like it that way and a person gets the feeling that since the Mods like it that way, that's the end of the story. 
True or False thats how it feels.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> So why not have an option in the Menu????? Best of both worlds!
> 
> IMO the posistion you guys take is what I think frustrates a lot of DBS forum users, it's the way it is, you guys like it that way and a person gets the feeling that since the Mods like it that way, that's the end of the story.
> True or False thats how it feels.


While I haven't expressed a feeling toward another option as I'm not sure it would be helpful, I don't have any personal problem with said option.

One of the things I like about the earliest editions of MS Word was its simplicity with power just underneath. Almost anyone could just start typing. Power users could take it to whole new levels with styles, preferences, etc.

Similarly, I gots no problems with a set of power options and this being one of them.

That's that way it is, 
I (would) like it that way, 
Thats (not) the end of the story, 
True or false, I'll run this humor(less) post into the ground 

(Ok, so not one of my better efforts. Dreadlk, I was hoping to have fun _with_ you, not at you. And support the general notion you and others have proposed.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> So why not have an option in the Menu????? Best of both worlds!
> 
> IMO the posistion you guys take is what I think frustrates a lot of DBS forum users, it's the way it is, you guys like it that way and a person gets the feeling that since the Mods like it that way, that's the end of the story.
> True or False thats how it feels.


I have to disagree that this is one of that's the way it is kind of things.

I don't understand why it's such a big deal. If I want it paused, I'll pause it. You also have to take into account that I don't even like the auto play when I swap tuners so you can take all this with a grain of salt. :grin:

IMHO, I would prefer they spend more time working on MRV or an HD GUI then trying to auto pause DP.

My 2¢ FWIW. 

Mike


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

I started a thread/poll trying to drive his point home -- there is no "do not pause" button, therefore, to me, logically, it did not make sense to autopause when switching tuners.

Then several posters mentioned that a menu option to handle the pause/do not pause on DP tuner switching was a good idea.

The more I thought about, the more it made sense to me. Even though I would not use, and I don't think D* will add it, it is still a valid suggestion.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I'm not strictly against an auto-pause option, but here is why I don't think it's a good idea.

In the strict sense of always auto-pause/never auto-pause, if that is all you ever do, then there may not be any issues. However, if you "choose" to be in the always auto-pause camp, but start using DoublePlay in a situation in which you don't want it to auto-pause, you have to go into the setup menus, change the option and then start watching your program. That could easily take a couple of minutes unless you either have a programmable remote or can easily remember the sequence of change. Then, when you are done with that particular session you'd have to go back and do it all over again to make it auto-pause again.

This doesn't even address multi-person households which could only exacerbate this problem and add the fact that one likes it one way, the other likes it the other way. What I'm trying to say is that there is no easy way out of auto-pause. You are stuck with having to FF through any content on the background buffer every time, regardless of what you are doing. This includes even the times when you have DoublePlay on but decide to not return to it for many hours (continuous use). Your buffer at that point would be 90 minutes behind and you'd have to FF through the entire 90 minutes. Sure, it's easy, but it's things like that that can quickly become frustrating, even for the person that wants auto-pause.

I still think the solution DIRECTV chose in this case is the best one. If you want it to pause, press {PAUSE} - [DOWN ARROW} .. If you want it to keep playing press {DOWN ARROW}. It's the same way every time, no matter who you are, where you are, how you use it. That simplicity just seems to make the most sense to me.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Indeed. I found DoublePlay very satisfying during my TV watching over the weekend and I especially liked the way the pause/auto-resume was handled. This fall is really the first real test for DoublePlay "in the trenches" for me... before this it was a curiosity but with all the live stuff this fall I plan to depend on it.


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## ck42 (Aug 13, 2008)

Got the upgrade last night on my HR21-700!! :hurah:

One other thing about the 34c upgrade that I seemed to recall being included was some fixes for 1080p compatibility. My Panny plasma always shows a shrunken down sized window when trying to use that setting in the menu. Tried it again and still get the same result.

Am I mistaken about there being any 1080p fixes in this release?


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> I get what you're saying Tom but I still think that it could fall either way depending on what kind of viewer you are. Let me give you a football example.
> 
> Some people will want to a watch their main game, switch during the breaks and go to the secondary game and if its paused where they left it they will start playing and then fast forward through the dull parts to get to the interesting plays or touchdowns, they may do this till they run out of buffer then switch back to the main game, Fast Forward through the commercials and continue watching the main game in real time.
> 
> ...


I personally like DP w/o the auto-pause. If you need it to auto-pause, then why don't you invest in an aftermarket remote like Harmony. That way you can set up a sequence to do a [Pause] then [Down Arrow] with the press of one button. Problem solved!

For me, I didn't like when I was using [FF] and it would rewind when you press [Stop]. So I set up a sequence to do [Pause] then [Play] and it eliminates the rewind.


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## FredMig (Nov 7, 2006)

I am originally from Pittsburgh, lived in the Tampa area for 25 years, and have been in Denver for the past 8 years. I have Sunday Ticket so I can watch the Steelers, Bucs, and Broncos every week.

This year, there are six Sundays in which all three teams play at the same time. Last Sunday was the first. Double play and Super Fan actually enabled me to enjoy all three games (even though only the Broncos won!)

I had the Steelers and Broncos on each tuner, while streaming the Bucs on the computer. A simple pause and down arrow at each commercial allowed me to switch over to the other game. I was never more than 10-15 minutes behind on either game and didn't miss a single play.


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

Tom Robertson said:


> If you want to watch both games, record them. That option has been around even longer.


Why have a remote ? i can change the channels on the receiver.

Why drive a car ? i can walk the 10 miles to work.


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## the_dudeman (Jun 19, 2008)

what is DLB?.....sorry


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## MarkEHansen (Sep 4, 2008)

the_dudeman said:


> what is DLB?.....sorry


Dual Live Buffers. That was the TiVo name for what direcTV is now calling Double Play (DP).


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## the_dudeman (Jun 19, 2008)

MarkEHansen said:


> Dual Live Buffers. That was the TiVo name for what direcTV is now calling Double Play (DP).


What does it do?.......sorry


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

the_dudeman said:


> What does it do?.......sorry


Check out the DoublePlay: FAQ

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164963


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not strictly against an auto-pause option, but here is why I don't think it's a good idea.
> 
> In the strict sense of always auto-pause/never auto-pause, if that is all you ever do, then there may not be any issues. However, if you "choose" to be in the always auto-pause camp, but start using DoublePlay in a situation in which you don't want it to auto-pause, you have to go into the setup menus, change the option and then start watching your program. That could easily take a couple of minutes unless you either have a programmable remote or can easily remember the sequence of change. Then, when you are done with that particular session you'd have to go back and do it all over again to make it auto-pause again.
> 
> ...


And in my case all of us in the household would prefer that it pauses!

During a slow TV period I showed my wife DP again and this time she took a little interest. Her natural response on switching buffers was what happened to the show? I left it at the point when X was talking to Y.

I explained she needed to rewind to get back to that point or to make sure she paused it before switching channels. Well you guessed it, she now pauses before switching buffers and so do I, so why not just make it so all the people who want it to work that way can do so without extra button presses.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

dcowboy7 said:


> Why have a remote ? i can change the channels on the receiver.
> 
> Why drive a car ? i can walk the 10 miles to work.


:thats:
:icon_lol:


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Because Mr. dreadlk, your opinion is not universally shared. I do recognize that it's valid, but I think that it might be best if you consider that this feature has now been fully rolled out and I see no evidence that your opinion is the majority one.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> And in my case all of us in the household would prefer that it pauses!
> 
> During a slow TV period I showed my wife DP again and this time she took a little interest. Her natural response on switching buffers was what happened to the show? I left it at the point when X was talking to Y.
> 
> I explained she needed to rewind to get back to that point or to make sure she paused it before switching channels. Well you guessed it, she now pauses before switching buffers and so do I, so why not just make it so all the people who want it to work that way can do so without extra button presses.


Because there are some people who don't want it to work that way, like those using the feature just to skip commercials. And those, like me, who sometimes want to pause the live channel and sometimes don't. As others have pointed out there is no "Don't Pause" button on the remote.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> While I haven't expressed a feeling toward another option as I'm not sure it would be helpful, I don't have any personal problem with said option.
> 
> One of the things I like about the earliest editions of MS Word was its simplicity with power just underneath. Almost anyone could just start typing. Power users could take it to whole new levels with styles, preferences, etc.
> 
> ...


:lol: Please consider whispering into those ears at D* for us, it would be nice if non CE forum members actually got to add some input.
Thanks


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

billsharpe said:


> Because there are some people who don't want it to work that way, like those using the feature just to skip commercials. And those, like me, who sometimes want to pause the live channel and sometimes don't. As others have pointed out there is no "Don't Pause" button on the remote.


We are asking to have a menu option so it can be configured for anyone's preferences


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> :lol: Please consider whispering into those ears at D* for us, it would be nice if non CE forum members actually got to add some input.
> Thanks


I rarely have to whisper anything. They got pretty good eyes on the subjects we have here...


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Because Mr. dreadlk, your opinion is not universally shared. I do recognize that it's valid, but I think that it might be best if you consider that this feature has now been fully rolled out and I see no evidence that your opinion is the majority one.


Well Mr. Sweet at least 44% of the people agree that it would be better that it paused! And if we took out the CE people out of the Poll I am pretty sure it would have been way over 50%.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164728&highlight=auto+pause

Please look before saying that my opinion is not universally shared, better yet why not redo the Poll with the participants names be recorded and ask that no CE people vote. Let the chips fly were they may and let's see if the majority of regular DBS members feel like you.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

why no ce? IOW you want to purposely skew the poll to what you want.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> why no ce? IOW you want to purposely skew the poll to what you want.


Because CE people help develop the features so they have a high tendency to back whatever they helped create. It's like having a poll asking if Mac is better than windows then having 50% of the participants be Apple employees.

If you want a true user viewpoint then the people who are responding should not be part of the development effort.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> Because CE people help develop the features so they have a high tendency to back whatever they helped create. It's like having a poll asking if Mac is better than windows then having 50% of the participants being Microsoft employees.
> 
> If you want a true user viewpoint then the people who are responding should not be part of the development effort.


then you need to also disallow anyone who has read/participated in this thread.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> Because CE people help develop the features so they have a high tendency to back whatever they helped create. It's like having a poll asking if Mac is better than windows then having 50% of the participants being Microsoft employees.
> 
> If you want a true user viewpoint then the people who are responding should not be part of the development effort.


If the CE'ers were more a part of the development effort, especially at the design level, you might have a point. But remember--CE'ers are users too. 

I don't think your argument holds water.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Well Mr. Sweet at least 44% of the people agree that it would be better that it paused! And if we took out the CE people out of the Poll I am pretty sure it would have been way over 50%


I would be ecstatic to think that our little group was completely representative of the entire 18,000,000 who subscribe to DIRECTV. Sadly that's not true. I think we can agree that 44% of those who took a poll at a web site for DIRECTV enthusiasts feel the same way as you do.

-----

I enjoy certain privileges as a moderator and I do my best not to take unfair advantage of them. Now, it seems to me that there's a bit too much "CE Chatter" going on here, and as your moderator I'm asking kindly that it stop, right now.

If anyone has an issue with how the CE program is run, or feels that there's some basic inequity about it, send me a message or start a thread about it in the CE forum. Otherwise, I'll have no choice but to believe that this thread has run its course and close it. I really do hate to stifle legitimate conversations, so let's get back to having one.

Thank you.


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## Tubaman-Z (Jul 31, 2007)

RACJ2 said:


> I personally like DP w/o the auto-pause. If you need it to auto-pause, then why don't you invest in an aftermarket remote like Harmony. That way you can set up a sequence to do a [Pause] then [Down Arrow] with the press of one button. Problem solved!
> 
> For me, I didn't like when I was using [FF] and it would rewind when you press [Stop]. So I set up a sequence to do [Pause] then [Play] and it eliminates the rewind.


RACJ2,

Good solution! I am always looking for spiffy macros to plug into my Harmony 670 to solve various issues. (I frankly think we need a thread in another forum to collect them). Yours is another tool in the toolbox. Thanks!


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> Well Mr. Sweet at least 44% of the people agree that it would be better that it paused! And if we took out the CE people out of the Poll I am pretty sure it would have been way over 50%.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164728&highlight=auto+pause


The poll should've read:

a) Yes pause.
b) No dont pause.
c) Just make it a menu option & let the person who is actually paying the $6 a month for the thing to make the decision themselves.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I would be ecstatic to think that our little group was completely representative of the entire 18,000,000 who subscribe to DIRECTV. Sadly that's not true. I think we can agree that 44% of those who took a poll at a web site for DIRECTV enthusiasts feel the same way as you do.


Some of your finest articulations.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

RACJ2 said:


> I personally like DP w/o the auto-pause. If you need it to auto-pause, then why don't you invest in an aftermarket remote like Harmony. That way you can set up a sequence to do a [Pause] then [Down Arrow] with the press of one button. Problem solved!
> 
> For me, I didn't like when I was using [FF] and it would rewind when you press [Stop]. So I set up a sequence to do [Pause] then [Play] and it eliminates the rewind.


That would be fine, if my HR21 would stop ignoring a quarter to a half of all the keypresses sent to it. If I were to press my Harmony's "Pause, Down" button, it would be frustrating (but, unfortunately, not at all surprising) to discover later that the "Pause" part had been ignored.

(Not so frustrating if your "Pause, Play" button were to have one of its pieces ignored.)


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

dcowboy7 said:


> The poll should've read:
> 
> a) Yes, pause.
> b) No, dont pause.
> c) Just make it a menu option & let the person who is actually paying the $6 a month for the thing make the decision themselves.


Right on, Cowboy!

But, still, I'm leaning toward the opinion that the people who answer these polls are mostly die-hard D* acolytes.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Some of your finest articulations.


Yes if we were speaking about an overall Directv survey; but since it's about a DBS Poll, that group had a huge influence on it's outcome. And this has been demonstrated before.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dreadlk said:


> Yes if we were speaking about an overall Directv survey; but since it's about a DBS Poll, that group had a huge influence on it's outcome. And this has been demonstrated before.


Sure....if you say so......


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

dcowboy7 said:


> The poll should've read:
> 
> a) Yes pause.
> b) No dont pause.
> c) Just make it a menu option & let the person who is actually paying the $6 a month for the thing to make the decision themselves.


I agree totaly.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sure....if you say so......


I think denying the obvious is probably not a winning debate tactic.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sure....if you say so......





Nicholsen said:


> I think denying the obvious is probably not a winning debate tactic.


Neither is not getting the humor....:lol: <---- Note: a smiley face


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

I have been dense before, but rarely in doubt. 

If it was actually intended as a concession on the point, that works for me.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Yes if we were speaking about an overall Directv survey; but since it's about a DBS Poll, that group had a huge influence on it's outcome. And this has been demonstrated before.


So if I get this straight, you believe DIRECTV listening to a base of dedicated users is a bad idea? Believe me, we're not their only source of data, but personally I think it's great that they listen to us.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Tubaman-Z said:


> RACJ2,
> 
> Good solution! I am always looking for spiffy macros to plug into my Harmony 670 to solve various issues. (I frankly think we need a thread in another forum to collect them). Yours is another tool in the toolbox. Thanks!


Glad I could help! I've learned a lot from this forum and appreciate almost everyone's input.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Syzygy said:


> That would be fine, if my HR21 would stop ignoring a quarter to a half of all the keypresses sent to it. If I were to press my Harmony's "Pause, Down" button, it would be frustrating (but, unfortunately, not at all surprising) to discover later that the "Pause" part had been ignored.
> 
> (Not so frustrating if your "Pause, Play" button were to have one of its pieces ignored.)


Do you actually have a Harmony remote to try my suggestion? The reason I ask is because I sometimes have the delayed or skipped commands when I press the in individual buttons on my Harmony remote. When I use a sequence to do the same two commands, it works every time. I think its because it spaces the commands out properly. When I push the individual buttons, I may hit them too quickly.


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## MarkEHansen (Sep 4, 2008)

RACJ2 said:


> Do you actually have a Harmony remote to try my suggestion? The reason I ask is because I sometimes have the delayed or skipped commands when I press the in individual buttons on my Harmony remote. When I use a sequence to do the same two commands, it works every time. I think its because it spaces the commands out properly. When I push the individual buttons, I may hit them too quickly.


It's funny you should mention timing of the individual key presses. I use a universal remote with my HR23-700 and at times have a really hard time just entering in channel numbers (during live TV or when viewing the grid), among other problems. However, I have a button I use to delete entries from the now playing list which sends two dashes - and this has never (never) failed (at least not yet).

I wonder, however, if it's not that the UR sends the signals further spaced apart, or if it's because it is sending them closer together (and the DVR is getting them as a "batch" or something)?

I know in my case, the UR is sending button presses much faster than I send them individually.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> So if I get this straight, you believe DIRECTV listening to a base of dedicated users is a bad idea? Believe me, we're not their only source of data, but personally I think it's great that they listen to us.


Listening to a dedicated group of users is a double edged sword, the hierarchical nature of such groups can often guide the development path down the road that the lead peoples prefer, which is only natural.

I am going to use a hypothetical situation to show how things can go wrong; I am going to use some Mod names in this example, but I am not implying that this is accurate of who is involved or how things happen in the CE world.

A new feature like DP comes out in a CE, the unit does not pause on switching buffers, lets say that Doug and Tom like the way it works and you (Stuart) don't really care one way or the other. A Problem thread for the CE starts up, the first guy who posts in; is lets say a level 2 enthusiast and he writes in saying that he wishes it would Pause on switching, Doug replies saying I find no problem with how it works, Tom chimes in and agrees. After a few more posts, the mass of dedicated users starts to agree that its fine the way it is now or they simply say nothing and continue to move onto other aspects of the software.

Two months later the release comes out, the mass of New people say "hey why doesn't it pause", the people who have already used it for 2 months say no its better the way it is now (because they have already been influenced within the chain of testers and have gotten use to the way it operates).

So in the end the way something is designed by enthusiasts can often times be more of a reflection of how a few people at the top think it should work and not always the way the masses of people would prefer it to work if given a choice.

Now how do I know this happens? 
There is a piece of consumer equipment right now on the market that I probably designed 30% of the layout on over a 3 year period using a forum that I Mod. I was not intending to do bad but when new features came out or suggestions for new features were asked for, I spoke my mind on how I felt they should work or what should be added and other people were easily won over by me pointing out why I felt doing it a certain way was better, some people felt "well if he likes it that way and he's the head guy then maybe its better that way".

Now in the end I think the company and users got a killer product and it does so many things so well, but in hindsight I also realize that some of the things are maybe not as suited for the masses but more geared for my overly high tech system.

My personal experience is not unique; I see it all the time on almost all the forums that I visit where forum input is used in the development of products. The Mods and head testers etc. have a very powerful influence on the way the product ends up.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

dreadlk,

I understand exactly of what you speak. I too have seen it happen several times--sometimes in private beta programs, other times in situations similar to what you describe.

There is a major difference here. We are not talking about a brand new feature, designed in a vacuum. Ego-centrism of design does not happen with features that have existed for 10 years, thru several iterations, on multiple platforms. Over that length of time, many focus groups and feedback mechanisms remove designer preference. And features become standardized.

Cheers,
Tom


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> dreadlk,
> 
> I understand exactly of what you speak. I too have seen it happen several times--sometimes in private beta programs, other times in situations similar to what you describe.
> 
> ...


Much appreciated Tom, it's good to know that you guys have experienced what I am talking about, that can only make things much better on this forum and certainly gives your CE program a distinct advantage over all the other beta tester programs I have participated in.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

I didn't see where Tom says that he and other mods take action to prevent their exerting too strong an influence on the opinions of the rest of us. For all I know, several (or all) of the mods revel in their power and have no inclination to let it be diluted.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> I didn't see where Tom says that he and other mods take action to prevent their exerting too strong an influence on the opinions of the rest of us. For all I know, several (or all) of the mods revel in their power and have no inclination to let it be diluted.


The only steps we take are to keep the discussions clean from abusing other members.

And we'll suggest or start polls and threads to foster helpful discussion about features.

The DBStalk community is a gold mine of great information because of the great members brainstorming and discussing. Stifling it would drastically reduce the value.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> ... gives your CE program a distinct advantage over all the other beta tester programs I have participated in.


I participated in the 1999-2001 TiVo SA beta-test program, and enjoyed feedback from TiVo Inc via email, listservers, and phone contacts with beta-test agents, salespeople, and even a few developers.

I miss that feedback very much.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

I played with DLB for the first time today and while not as intuitive to start as the Tivo's "always on" functionality it seemed to work well. The five - six second channel changes though are still quite bothersome...but at least you can go back and see what you missed.


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## CPanther95 (Apr 2, 2007)

Well, I made it through 4 pages of people claiming that DP is great and simple to use - but no details. So I assume I'm just missing something obvious.

How do you change the channels you want to view? For those that claim it's just as easy as Tivo, I'm real curious to see the answer because with Tivo, the last two channels viewed are the two channels that maintain a buffer. However, with D*'s DP, I've spent 15 minutes trying to change the DP to 2 different games than the original 2 games that were set up. One of the original games always remains. Do I have to deactivate, then reactivate every time I want to switch the programs? If so, how do you deactivate it?


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

CPanther95 said:


> Well, I made it through 4 pages of people claiming that DP is great and simple to use - but no details. So I assume I'm just missing something obvious.
> 
> How do you change the channels you want to view? For those that claim it's just as easy as Tivo, I'm real curious to see the answer because with Tivo, the last two channels viewed are the two channels that maintain a buffer. However, with D*'s DP, I've spent 15 minutes trying to change the DP to 2 different games than the original 2 games that were set up. One of the original games always remains. Do I have to deactivate, then reactivate every time I want to switch the programs? If so, how do you deactivate it?


No you do not have to deactivate and reactivate it.

You need to press the down arrow to change tuners. Then you change to the channel that you want. Once you're on the channel you want press down again to go back to the other tuner.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Ken S said:


> I played with DLB for the first time today and while not as intuitive to start as the Tivo's "always on" functionality it seemed to work well. The five - six second channel changes though are still quite bothersome...but at least you can go back and see what you missed.


Hi Ken nice to see you finally joined in  your initial reaction to DP is exactly like mine, hence my starting this thread. I personally felt like DLB was going to be a more seamless integration, but it is what it is and I understand that nothing can be done but because of the need to turn it on, I hardly ever use it.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> I didn't see where Tom says that he and other mods take action to prevent their exerting too strong an influence on the opinions of the rest of us. For all I know, several (or all) of the mods revel in their power and have no inclination to let it be diluted.


I don't think that anyone can help but to input their own feelings on how something should work, and the higher you are up the ladder the more that opinion will shape the outcome. What Tom has indicated is that they do not really make the calls on the user interface but that they only give feedback on Bugs.

BTW if D* is listening they should by now see that about half the people would like the DP to auto pause and half don't so we really need an option to turn On/Off the pause.


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

Think of the two tuners as separate partitions in the DVR. . . .the down arrow switches between them.

On each tuner / partition you can change channels / review your previous channels with the yellow button selection and what-ever channel you leave it on continues to buffer.

With the down arrow you can change tuners and pick up the buffer. On something like watching two games at a time, I'll pause before switching partitions and watch the other game until commercials. Generally, I can watch 2 games in the same time as 1 . . within 15 minutes or so.

Today, with NFL, GOLF, and the race, DP is getting a workout!!


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> I don't think that anyone can help but to input their own feelings on how something should work, and the higher you are up the ladder the more that opinion will shape the outcome. What Tom has indicated is that they do not really make the calls on the user interface but that they only give feedback on Bugs.
> 
> BTW if D* is listening they should by now see that about half the people would like the DP to auto pause and half don't so we really need an option to turn On/Off the pause.


I don't remember if you were around in the testing of DP but there have been lots of different reactions to DLB / DP configuration. Most were around the need to start it and the timeout.

There was a major change during the testing. . .the name!

Generally, once a feature goes national, there's very little changes made so you may be late to the party on this one.

Like any feature on any piece of electronics, get use to the way it works and use it the way it best fits you.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

CPanther95 said:


> Well, I made it through 4 pages of people claiming that DP is great and simple to use - but no details. So I assume I'm just missing something obvious.
> 
> How do you change the channels you want to view? For those that claim it's just as easy as Tivo, I'm real curious to see the answer because with Tivo, the last two channels viewed are the two channels that maintain a buffer. However, with D*'s DP, I've spent 15 minutes trying to change the DP to 2 different games than the original 2 games that were set up. One of the original games always remains. Do I have to deactivate, then reactivate every time I want to switch the programs? If so, how do you deactivate it?


Actually, I don't think tivo worked that way, but I could me mis-remembering. With tivo, just like with DP, you have to change tuners to maintain both buffers. Both use the down arrow. Using previous or just going to the last 2 channels viewed will switch between shows on the same tuner and the buffer won't be intact.

In your situation: Tune to one of the games you want. Press the down arrow (twice if it's not active). Tune to the second game. Now, just press the down arrow and you'll switch back and forth between those two games.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> No you do not have to deactivate and reactivate it.
> 
> You need to press the down arrow to change tuners. Then you change to the channel that you want. Once you're on the channel you want press down again to go back to the other tuner.


The following post came much later in this thread, and is an extreme example of using DOWN and PREV, but should help you walk through everything you can do with DOUBLE PLAY...



Drew2k said:


> OK, here's a walk through of using DOWN to activate DoublePlay, and using PREV and the YELLOW/Previous Channel option to cycle through up to 8 channels, 4 per tuner.
> 
> Tracing through these steps should demonstrate that the buffer remains intact when swapping tuners, but when using PREV or YELLOW/Previous Channels to switch channels on a tuner the buffer is flushed.
> 
> ...


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## whitepelican (May 9, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Actually, I don't think tivo worked that way, but I could me mis-remembering. With tivo, just like with DP, you have to change tuners to maintain both buffers. Both use the down arrow. Using previous or just going to the last 2 channels viewed will switch between shows on the same tuner and the buffer won't be intact.


That's not necessarily how Tivo works with regards to DLB. The down arrow will always switch between tuners, but the previous channel will always switch between the two most recently viewed channels (whether they were on the same tuner or different ones). So, if you hit down arrow once to switch tuners, then subsequent presses of previous channel will also switch tuners. You can also channel up/down to switch between tuners if the tuners are parked on adjacent channels. As much as I'm a Tivo fanboy, I think I like the HR2x implementation better (with the major exception of the enabling & timing out).


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

CPanther95 said:


> Well, I made it through 4 pages of people claiming that DP is great and simple to use - but no details. So I assume I'm just missing something obvious.
> 
> How do you change the channels you want to view? For those that claim it's just as easy as Tivo, I'm real curious to see the answer because with Tivo, the last two channels viewed are the two channels that maintain a buffer. However, with D*'s DP, I've spent 15 minutes trying to change the DP to 2 different games than the original 2 games that were set up. One of the original games always remains. Do I have to deactivate, then reactivate every time I want to switch the programs? If so, how do you deactivate it?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164963


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

dreadlk said:


> BTW if D* is listening they should by now see that about half the people would like the DP to auto pause and half don't so we really need an option to turn On/Off the pause.


If they make any changes to DP, I would agree with you on the comment to add an option for pause on/off. Definitely don't want them to add an auto-pause. Then there would be no way to set up a sequence or macro to force the buffer to continue playing when you switch tuners. The way it is now, I have a sequence to pause and then swap tuners if I chose to do so.


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

Wow this is the thread that will not die!!!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

scottandregan said:


> Wow this is the thread that will not die!!!


Emotional subject and like the original DLB threads it will be discussed, theorized, and argued until...who knows when. :grin:

Mike


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

scottandregan said:


> Wow this is the thread that will not die!!!


It continues because new people keep getting the release and they then chime in. It will most likely die when everybody has gotten the release and had their chance to express their opinion.


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

dreadlk said:


> It continues because new people keep getting the release and they then chime in. It will most likely die when everybody has gotten the release and had their chance to express their opinion.


I did not think about that, seems like it has been out for a long time already.


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