# DMA's-what should exist, and what shouldn't?



## akron05

Akron and Canton, OH - two metro areas with a combined 1.1 million people-are stuck without local news and without local network TV ID (although we get grade B OTA and cable from Cleveland no problem) thanks to Cleveland's political and economic dominance, and geographic proximity. A few things going differently back in the 50s could have made a difference. I've always maintained that if Dayton and Cincy can be seperate markets, Cleveland and Akron/Canton could have been also.

Then, how the heck does Zanestucky, er, Zanesville, have it's own DMA? Can't they get Columbus locals there? One single network station (NBC)? How does IT survive, yet Channel 23 WAKC as an ABC affiliate in Akron never made it? Zanesville only has 20-something thousand people!!


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## BobMurdoch

How about central NJ. 1.3 million people in Monmouth and Ocean counties and we are stuck with NY or Philly news. There is a low power NBC affiliate in Atlantic City.... why can't there be a few more in Central NJ (especially the HD channels - I'd settle for some repeater towers so we could use a small antenna for HD reception


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## TNGTony

Have your neighbors and businesses in the area stop doing business with Cleveland. That'll do it. 

Cincinnati and Dayton are not anywhere near as economically linked as Cleveland/Akron and Canton.

There is a country in between Cincinnati and Dayton. There is no such separation between Cleveland and Akron.

The following Cleveland area stations are NOT licensed to Cleveland:


WDLI TV 17 Canton
WOIO TV 19 Shaker Heights
WVPX TV 23 Akron
WUAB TV 43 Lorain
WEAO TV 49 Akron
WGGN TV 52 Sandusky
WBNX TV 55 Akron
WOAC TV 67 Canton
WMFD TV 68 Mansfield

Finally, the lines have to be drawn somewhere. Anywhere the lines are drawn, some one would be pissed off. Today it's your turn. 

See ya
Tony


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## akron05

TNGTony said:


> Have your neighbors and businesses in the area stop doing business with Cleveland. That'll do it.
> 
> Cincinnati and Dayton are not anywhere near as economically linked as Cleveland/Akron and Canton.
> 
> There is a country in between Cincinnati and Dayton. There is no such separation between Cleveland and Akron.
> 
> The following Cleveland area stations are NOT licensed to Cleveland:
> 
> WDLI TV 17 Canton
> WOIO TV 19 Shaker Heights
> WVPX TV 23 Akron
> WUAB TV 43 Lorain
> WEAO TV 49 Akron
> WGGN TV 52 Sandusky
> WBNX TV 55 Akron
> WOAC TV 67 Canton
> WMFD TV 68 Mansfield
> 
> Finally, the lines have to be drawn somewhere. Anywhere the lines are drawn, some one would be pissed off. Today it's your turn.
> 
> See ya
> Tony


That is true, if Akron were in Stark County and Canton in Tuscarawas, then things would have probably evolved differently.

I still think if the Cleveland stations insist on using digital subchannels, that having one of them devote one to an Akron/Canton based newscast might be a smart move. Plus, if one of the major network affiliates did, others would follow suit. Just sucks to watch the news around here, I really couldn't care less about a burglary at a McDonalds in Parma when they don't even mention the one that happened in Canton.


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## akron05

TNGTony said:


> Have your neighbors and businesses in the area stop doing business with Cleveland. That'll do it.
> 
> Cincinnati and Dayton are not anywhere near as economically linked as Cleveland/Akron and Canton.
> 
> There is a country in between Cincinnati and Dayton. There is no such separation between Cleveland and Akron.
> 
> The following Cleveland area stations are NOT licensed to Cleveland:
> 
> WDLI TV 17 Canton
> WOIO TV 19 Shaker Heights
> WVPX TV 23 Akron
> WUAB TV 43 Lorain
> WEAO TV 49 Akron
> WGGN TV 52 Sandusky
> WBNX TV 55 Akron
> WOAC TV 67 Canton
> WMFD TV 68 Mansfield
> 
> Finally, the lines have to be drawn somewhere. Anywhere the lines are drawn, some one would be pissed off. Today it's your turn.
> 
> See ya
> Tony


We used to have a situation where Akron had an ABC affiliate, WAKC Channel 23, a secondary in the market that for a while did OK because they carried local news. Then ultimately it was sold to Pax.

WUMR in Manchester, NH is similar-they are an ABC affiliate where Boston already has one and they're in the DMA. Somehow they survive and WAKC didn't even though Manchester is less than half Akron's size.


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## Geronimo

Springfield MA and Hartford CT should be one DMA---IMHO.


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## DTC mac

Remember DMA's are created as a tool to determine advertising revenues, not to make veiwers reception capabilites.

Ah! the free market at work.


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## Maniacal1

Geronimo said:


> Springfield MA and Hartford CT should be one DMA---IMHO.


Chief, you are absolutely right. Springfield has no Fox affiliate and its CBS affiliate is a low-power clone of the Hartford CBS station. Three of our five HD networks on cable come from Connecticut.

Of the three counties in the DMA, Hampshire County, the southernmost, belongs with Hartford. Franklin County, the northernmost, belongs with Boston. Hampden county, in the middle, could go either way. They're most likely directed toward Hartford.

I'm in Franklin County, and five miles north of me, over the state line into Vermont, is considered to be in the Boston DMA.

The Fox situation is the one that aggravates me the most. There's only one Fox affiliate in Massachusetts, WFXT out of Boston. Our "local" affiliate is WTIC, out of Hartford. When Fox regionalizes their sports coverage, WTIC always chooses the Yankees, Mets, and Giants over the Red Sox and Patriots.

If there's only one affiliate of a network in your state, that affiliate is the one that should be legally available to you.


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## Crystal Pepsi Ball

Glendive, MT (which is 210 out of 210) has a total of 3 counties, and Ottumwa, IA - Kirksville, MO and Quincy, IL - Hannibal, MO - Keokuk, IA should combine. IIRC, ABC and FOX come from Ottumwa and CBS and NBC come out of Quincy. 10 counties for Ottumwa and 15 for Quincy. And most of the area is rural.


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## TNGTony

Panama City, FL and Dothan, AL are really one market. So are Biloxi/Gulfport and Hattiesburg/Laurel, MS also do not duplicate each other's networks.

See ya
Tony


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## Link

akron05 said:


> Then, how the heck does Zanestucky, er, Zanesville, have it's own DMA? Can't they get Columbus locals there? One single network station (NBC)? How does IT survive, yet Channel 23 WAKC as an ABC affiliate in Akron never made it? Zanesville only has 20-something thousand people!!


From what I understand WHIZ-TV 18 in Zanesville was an NBC station from the 1950s and could remain so today even though viewers can get WCMH NBC 4 from Columbus.

It doesn't make sense to me why and who needs or watches WHIZ when it is only a one DMA station and the DMA to the east of it is part of Columbus--not Zanesville. I don't know why there is a need for 2 NBC stations.

However in Indiana you have WLFI 18 CBS in Lafayette, IN (owned by LIN) as its own 3 county DMA. All other network affiliates come from Indianapolis including LIN's other CBS station WISH-TV 8. The 3 counties in the Lafayette are considered in that DMA and cannot get Indianapolis stations via satellite because of it.


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## Fifty Caliber

All of Maine should be the same DMA, there is NO reason for there to be 3 different DMA's in that state.


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## TonyM

Mankato, MN is the same way as Lafayette, IN and Zanesville, OH

One Channel...3 counties. EVRYTHING around it (including counties farther west than that) are in the Minneapolis DMA. Cable gets all Mpls & Mankato CBS. Satellite gets zippo (well, they qualify for NBC & FOX distants)

Only time Mankato is mentioned on the Mpls news is when something HUGE happens there...or when its Vikings Training Camp (Vikes train in Mankato)


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## dsanbo

Fifty Caliber said:


> All of Maine should be the same DMA, there is NO reason for there to be 3 different DMA's in that state.


Ummmm.....Portland, Bangor...and......????


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## TonyM

Presque Isle


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## Fifty Caliber

And they all should be the same DMA, IMHO.


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## bavaria72

Well it is my opinion that if a person wants to view different DMAs from what they are currently getting and somebody wants to build an infrastructure to deliver it to them, they should have that right to subscribe to it. It is called public air waves for a reason.


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## TNGTony

Bavaria72, That is an old argument and still flawed. 

The airwaves are the publics, I will not argue that. Anyone can put up an antenna and pick up signals right off the air for "free". There is no restriction on where the channel can come from and, barring zoning laws and terrain issues, you can put up a very big antenna to get channels from 120-140 miles away!

HOWEVER, Using that antenna to receive a signal and then redistributing it (selling it to "firends or subscribers) is another story. That is the issue: the redistribution AGAINST THE WILL OF THE OWNER OF THE SIGNAL. If the owner of the signal does not have a problem, then it is okay. No law prohibits a channel from being distributed nationally if the channel in question does not object. Currently the following channels are available nationally:
WSFJ TV 51 ("i"/Rel) Newark, OH (Columbus TV Market)
KSBN TV 57 (SafeTV) Springdale, AR (Ft. Smith TV Market)
WPCB TV 40 (Cornerstone) Pittsburgh, PA
WACX TV 55 (TBN) - Leesburg, FL (Tampa TV Market)
KGEB TV 53 (GEB) - Tulsa, OK
WTLU CA 19 (FamilyNet) Lynchburg, VA

The exception is if that channel bought programming with the prior knowledge and understanding that they only had the right to rebroadcast that programming in a certain area. They cannot allow that programming to be sold outside the "home" area.

It's just that simple.

See ya
Tony


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## Link

It stinks for people in these 1 channel DMAs because they don't qualify for the neighboring DMA stations on satellite yet they are on cable because they are their only source for the other network stations.

If DMA's are based on Nielsen ratings then I can't think the majority of viewers would watch the only station in a DMA vs. the ratings for the other network stations that technically aren't in their DMA.


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## dsanbo

TonyM said:


> Presque Isle


Shoot! Forgot that one!
Is WAGM-TV's (Channel 8) transmitter still in the potato field up there? I took a pix many years ago and the tower was surrounded by "spuds"!! 
How many stations are included in the Presque Isle DMA? Does it include NB? Just curious....haven't been north of Bar Harbor in >20 years....


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## TonyM

Stations in Presque isle that would be on satellite
WAGM 8 CBS
WMEM 10 PBS

Stations that don’t (due to being Canadian)
TVA, CBC, SRC, TQS


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## dsanbo

TonyM said:


> Stations in Presque isle that would be on satellite
> WAGM 8 CBS
> WMEM 10 PBS
> 
> Stations that don't (due to being Canadian)
> TVA, CBC, SRC, TQS


Thanx, Tony.....Couldn't see how Canada would be part of the DMA...but I'm not as up on the FCC R&Rs as I used to be.....


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## TonyM

There are a few stations that broadcast into that area. Border cities (Buffalo, Detroit) have the same thing (Canadian channels that you can pick up OTA)

Cable has CBC but satellite is not allowed to carry any Canadian channels.


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## Tim Lones

I posted on another site a while back a potential Akron-Canton TV Market for the 1950's and 60's. Each station either represents a current station operating under original call letters or a never built full power construction permit. This also assumes that two network affiliates could have sustained a news department long enough to be successful

17 WJAN Canton NBC
23 WMAC Massillon FOX (CP)
29 WTLC Canton CBS (CP)
45 WNEO Alliance PBS
49 WAKR Akron ABC
55 WBNX Akron WB/UPN
67 WOAC Canton IND.


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## greatwhitenorth

Fifty Caliber said:


> All of Maine should be the same DMA, there is NO reason for there to be 3 different DMA's in that state.


On what do you base that, 50? If you've ever spent any time in Maine, you'd realize how big this state is. I live in Bangor, and it is 150 miles (approx) to Portland, and the Bangor DMA extends another 60-75 miles to the north. Up here we would have no shot at all at getting ANY of the Portland stations. Also, the southern part of the state is incredibly different from the northern part of the state. South is mostly urban/suburban (we call it "Northern Massachusetts") while the north is rural. Easy to draw your conclusion based on census data, but geography and demographics indicate the opposite conclusion.


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## Fifty Caliber

For what it's worth I have spent time in Maine.


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## akron05

Tim Lones said:


> I posted on another site a while back a potential Akron-Canton TV Market for the 1950's and 60's. Each station either represents a current station operating under original call letters or a never built full power construction permit. This also assumes that two network affiliates could have sustained a news department long enough to be successful
> 
> 17 WJAN Canton NBC
> 23 WMAC Massillon FOX (CP)
> 29 WTLC Canton CBS (CP)
> 45 WNEO Alliance PBS
> 49 WAKR Akron ABC
> 55 WBNX Akron WB/UPN
> 67 WOAC Canton IND.


Had Akron been even TEN MILES further south...that may well have happened. We could have even ended up with a couple VHF stations instead of frickin Steubenville and Wheeling. How did those two podunk towns end up with their own TV stations anyway?


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## Tower Guy

akron05 said:


> WUMR in Manchester, NH is similar-they are an ABC affiliate where Boston already has one and they're in the DMA. Somehow they survive and WAKC didn't even though Manchester is less than half Akron's size.


Manchester survives on huge political advertising once every four years.


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## rnbmusicfan

Link said:


> From what I understand WHIZ-TV 18 in Zanesville was an NBC station from the 1950s and could remain so today even though viewers can get WCMH NBC 4 from Columbus.
> 
> It doesn't make sense to me why and who needs or watches WHIZ when it is only a one DMA station and the DMA to the east of it is part of Columbus--not Zanesville. I don't know why there is a need for 2 NBC stations.
> 
> However in Indiana you have WLFI 18 CBS in Lafayette, IN (owned by LIN) as its own 3 county DMA. All other network affiliates come from Indianapolis including LIN's other CBS station WISH-TV 8. The 3 counties in the Lafayette are considered in that DMA and cannot get Indianapolis stations via satellite because of it.


NBC was also generous to continue an affiliation with WHIZ-TV Zanesville, even though they owned the Columbus station, WCMH. (The Columbus station has since been sold to Media General). If it was Disney owning a ABC station in Columbus, and an lone ABC affiliate was in Zanesville, Disney may have taken another approach - probably not renewing the ABC affiliation in Zanesville. ABC maneuvered the affiliation cease of KNTV in San Jose, to protect the ABC owned station KGO in San Francisco.


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## rnbmusicfan

akron05 said:


> That is true, if Akron were in Stark County and Canton in Tuscarawas, then things would have probably evolved differently.
> 
> I still think if the Cleveland stations insist on using digital subchannels, that having one of them devote one to an Akron/Canton based newscast might be a smart move. Plus, if one of the major network affiliates did, others would follow suit. Just sucks to watch the news around here, I really couldn't care less about a burglary at a McDonalds in Parma when they don't even mention the one that happened in Canton.


In the Philadelphia market, I think the same could be said about Allentown and Reading, PA. They could be a separate TV market (combined cities) from an economic standpoint; the same way they are separate radio and newspaper markets. Ditto with Wilmington-Northern DE as it could survive on its political advertising like how N.H. does, and New Jersey could be split from NY as well.

However, the line has to be drawn somewhere - and station owners are not going to want their areas carved. If there were a lot of smaller markets, there would be disadvantages: for example, those wanting HDTV will find that they have to go through a small market TV station, that likely won't be up to speed. The DirecTV local channel lineups for certain areas would be smaller, unless relatively nearby but out of market stations are imported, but DirecTV hasn't really being doing significantly viewed.

But, potential advantages of more markets include: more news coverage, more jobs provided by television station newsrooms, and thus, rather than profits being sent to some corporate office or to a few overpaid newsanchors from a big city, - the moneys go to more salaried employees, whom contribute to their local economies. There'd be affordable advertising on television for small businesses (with cable no longer monopolizing), and thus collectively more local advertising revenue. Ever watched a small market network affiliate, though? The ads are like cable's ads, sometimes even cheesier.


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