# These forums: Why higher Dish Network viewing?



## toad57 (Apr 23, 2002)

Whenever I look at the list of forums here I frequently observe 3 to 4 times as many viewing the Dish Network-branded forums as the comparable DirecTV forum (e.g. *General* , *PVR*)

Any speculation on why? More forum participants own Dish than DirecTV? Dish is more interesting? Having Dish creates more to talk about? :eek2:

Just wondering...

Mr. Toad


----------



## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

Well...the DirecTV zealots (not the regular DTV subs, just the troublemakers) will say that DirecTV subscribers are generally too busy watching their TVs with perfectly operational receivers, while Dish subscribers are always in need of help because of faulty equipment and programming.

Like with any lampoon, there is a slight grain of truth to that I fear. 

Dish Network Zealots will say that DirecTV customers are "off the rack" people. These are people who will go to the department mega-store and buy something without really talking about it. Dish people HAD to be more descriminating because for most of Dish Network's existance, you had to go to mom and pop specialty shops to get the equipment. So you had to be more "technical" and savvy. Therefore much more likely to seek assistance or offer it in the forums and newsgroups.

Again, probably a slight grain of truth to that too.

My personal opinion is that Dish Network was the underdog for the longest time. That coupled with the company's near amaturish country charm personified by "Charlie", made this company quite a bit more exciting to talk about. News leaks, strange developements with the failed and now maybe revived A Sky B, Charlie's fued with Rupert. For anyone coming from way back, the words "tick, tick, tick" by one Oliver Tse that would spark a 15 day, 300 post-long flame war on the usenet groups. The excitement of seeing a company fight against overwhelming odds to compete in a market where "DirecTV"= Satellite TV. To the point that Dish proposed to buy the DirecTV (or merge for those who still prefer that term for one company gaining control of the other and putting the chairman of the same company as chaiman with power to cast 1/3 of the votes on the board of directors on his very own a merger) which eventually was blocked by the FCC and the two companies desolved their deal.

Anyway, I'm sure everyone else has their reasons.

See ya
Tony


----------



## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

The vast majority of people here subscribe to Dish Network, I wish there were more DirecTV subscribers here to even things out. On the other hand if you take a look at the TiVo Community Forums, the majority of the people their have D* for obvious reasons. Each provider has their advantages and disadvantages, neither one is clearly better then the other one, it just depends on what you want and what you like and which one is better for you.


----------



## dfergie (Feb 28, 2003)

I had both until a couple of months ago, I found that I did not watch direct tv except on thursdays so I could see then nbc shows one hour earlier. I was grandfathered in for all the networks except abc. The PQ was about the same as dish, sometimes worse, sometimes better. I had C-band, then bought a direct tv reciever for camping in 1996, and eventually gave up my programming on C-band for direct. I got into Dish when UPN went digital on C-band, and have steadilly increased programming on it ever since. Dish offered me more options as there is no UPN ava. here as well as WB.


----------



## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

IMHOFWIWYMMV...

To me, DirecTV is more the McDish of DBS, appealing to those, many of whom don't care to get involved in the inner workings of the technology, but just want a 'package' deal. In their mind, DBS is just another form of cable TV, but with more channels, better PQ and greater reliability.

DishNetwork is more of a menu-driven service, winning favor with the tweekers among us, and appealing to those who take the time to research products and services before they buy. With all the bleeps and blings of its hardware, E* also tends to drive its subs to seek peer-to-peer solutions via online resources. Or, to put it differently, "misery loves company".

Personally, I like to promote DBSTalk to friends and family who are DBS subs, but it's the D* subs who typically express little or no interest in an on-line forum about satellite TV. To them, I might as well be promoting a site about toasters or vacuum cleaners.

I've always been somewhat of a home-grown, half-ass techie, but I didn't develop a serious interest in satellite TV until two things happened - availability of locals and the PVR. It was the EchoStar's DP that really nailed it for me. Ironically, it was the same DP, with its now-legendary foibles, that drove me to seek a peer-group (dbsforums) that would provide some info and answers to the few problems I initially experenced. That was three years ago, and I can honestly say that my two DPs, with all their features and capabilities, have significantly increased my enjoyment of television as an entertainment and information medium, and that feeling continues to this day. Until the 921 delivers, given the current either/or choice between PVR or HD, I would choose and have chosen PVR over HD hand down.


----------



## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I think also another reason for the Dish majority here is that many of the viewers here came from another site related to DBS. When that site turned into a Dish bash fest, led by one of the "moderators" of the site, many members there left for here. This site has grown exponentially since.


----------



## Frapp (Apr 23, 2002)

Well stated :righton:


----------



## John Hodgson (Mar 28, 2002)

" think also another reason for the Dish majority here is that many of the viewers here came from another site related to DBS. When that site turned into a Dish bash fest, led by one of the "moderators" of the site, many members there left for here. This site has grown exponentially since.
"

Tell it like it was Richard, it was an administrator not a moderator


----------



## cnsf (Jun 6, 2002)

I actually was an E* sub and found this site via a Google search. Everyone had all the answers I needed and I learned quite a bit just from browsing and reading.

Eventually, I switched to D* for Yankee reasons and have been completely satisfied with the Tivos and PQ since. Now I post to the D* forums here.

The moral is that the D* folks here may tend to be converts from E*. I also think the "less informed" consumer comment applies.


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

I think Nick has pretty much nailed it (as usual  ). Some of us are tech heads. Others are just people looking for help. Another thing I might add is that Dish is more pro-active with their customers (i.e. Charlie Chats, Tech Chats, etc.) which help get Dish users more involved. 

These forums are a reflection of how important customer involvement is with Dish. Even though we are not financed or in any way affiliated with them, we serve a useful purpose by helping them to improve their products (which is a good thing. Can you imagine if forums like this didn't exist, YIKES!).

I agree with Steve though. It would be nice if we had more DirecTV customers here but that will never become a reality unless DirecTV starts having problems or become more involved with their customers.


----------



## PSB (Oct 4, 2002)

I think its problem driven, and it seems there are much more problems with Dish systems (switches, Dish Pro..) Also when Dish customers find out how much it will cost for a service call or part they seek out these forums for self help!


----------



## Tomsoundman (Jun 17, 2002)

Well sell stuff on here. I'm sure your wife would prefer cash.


----------



## razorbackfan (Aug 18, 2002)

Because Dish equipment and installation was free and in a few months Dish will carry my locals.


----------



## Randy_B (Apr 23, 2002)

I think Tony and Nick have hit it. 

Dish got where it is by word of mouth and "community". So the forums are an atmosphere that is familar to E* subscribers. "Misery loves company" pretty much iced the cake. 

Dish was also more publicly supportive of these forums, even to the point of having one of the illustrious founders of the community (see the chat godfather above) on a Charlie Chat (that is still the best chat ever, John, also the last time  ). Because Dish has promoted the forums on chats, only Dish subscribers see them and come over outta curiosity (if nothing else). I am sure Eddie Hartenstein couldn't spell DBSTalk much less know of its existence and promote it.

In all fairness to the admin at the other site, the E* reaction that "changed" his attitude was outta expectations, especially from a company exec that high up! In that light, he is still fair in his opinions (and strong).


----------



## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> it was an administrator not a moderator


Oops. My apologies to all moderators on that site.


----------



## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

Lets look at it this way... the members and moderators try to make things fun around here. We welcome subscribers of DirecTV as well as Dish, and, when the time comes, the new DBS ventures. We also talk about Satellite radio as well, and even run contests for fun.

And, we have no pop-up ads either.


----------



## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Rking401 said:


> I think also another reason for the Dish majority here is that many of the viewers here came from another site related to DBS. When that site turned into a Dish bash fest, led by one of the "moderators" of the site, many members there left for here. This site has grown exponentially since.


I'm one of those.........

I felt like a Republican in the Bronx over there.......... No matter WHAT positive thing I tried to say or no matter what question I tried to ask, I got slammed by a bunch of D* trolls chastising me for being an E* subscriber in the first place.

Sample question,....

"How do I record a show weekly?"

Answer: "Click on blah blah blah, .....but if you were a D* subscriber it would do it automatically, wash your car, put your kids to bed, and convince your wife to wear that litle red number you like!"


----------



## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

And you can see Survivor photos here on the Gold Forum that will NEVER see the light of day on the other site.......

Get those contributions in and become a Gold Member!

(Scott, can I have MY free DVD now?) :rotfl:


----------



## rbonzer (May 13, 2002)

Could it be that with Dish, there is only one company to complain about. Everything wrong with Dish is Dish's fault. I want a nice $299 811 in my family room. Its all Dish's fault that I don't have it. (Actually, I'd want a $299 911, but I'm pretty sure I won't get that!)

If D* people want a new receiver, who do they complain about? Sony? RCA? The D* people get to complain about PQ, service, and channel selection.

I could be way off...

Rob


----------



## John Corn (Mar 21, 2002)

BobMurdoch said:


> And you can see Survivor photos here on the Gold Forum that will NEVER see the light of day on the other site.......
> 
> Get those contributions in and become a Gold Member!
> 
> (Scott, can I have MY free DVD now?) :rotfl:


 :rolling:


----------



## DarrellP (Apr 24, 2002)

Hey Nick, don't let the HD Videophiles at AVSForum read your post, they will hunt you down, torture you and remove your skin one layer at a time. These guys are the ultimate "Tweek Meisters".


----------



## jrrdy1380 (Jun 27, 2003)

Nick said:


> IMHOFWIWYMMV...
> 
> To me, DirecTV is more the McDish of DBS, appealing to those, many of whom don't care to get involved in the inner workings of the technology, but just want a 'package' deal. In their mind, DBS is just another form of cable TV, but with more channels, better PQ and greater reliability.
> 
> ...


I also would have to agree that with Dish's PVR features on the DP was the reason that I have maintained being a Dish customer for almost three years. PVR has changed the way we view television now and forever. By not being set to a specific time schedule, I have the ability to view my favorite programs when it more convenient for me instead of being tied to watching a specific program or event at a specific time of day.

I also agree that if came down to a choice between PVR/HD I also would go PVR. HD, in time, will become a part of the viewing landscape, but with the high cost of conversion and the current lack of available HD programming, I do not see this as a vital part of obtaining satellite tv.

I enjoy my DP (now that it seems to act stable after alot of upgrades and patience) and the PTV (even though it sucks having to pay a extra $10), but the benefits help me to get through it!


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Nick and RKing401, I agree with the both of you, as why I came here and why more discuss Dish on the boards. I believe that those that get Dish are more into the technology whereas DirecTv is more for those that want to just watch tv. Charlie, having been in this business for a while with Echostar C-Band hardware, seems to have some type of interest himself in the technology, therefore helps get people more interested in his product in a way it seems to be implemented. Dish tries to be the first to bring about new technology and the way they do things seem to bring about interesting things such as the Dish500, first PTV service, got locals started, now SuperDish, HD, etc.


----------



## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

I would have to say better grass roots marketing on the part of Echostar. Dish is always generating rumors and buzz... It is much more fun to talk about what Charlie might be up to than the faceless corporation of DirecTV. You can always blame/praise Charlie, he is an unique character that portrays the underdog scrappy fighter.


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

Perhaps that is another part of it, that Dish seems run by a normal individual with his Charlie Chats while DirecTv seems to some to be run more corprate than individually in some cases.


----------



## marko (Jan 9, 2003)

I think, in general, people that choose dish are probably more cost conscious and have investigated their purchase more than directv choosers. I mean, you can't just walk into best buy and buy dish (who sells it now, walmart/sears?, and when you see it their, it is usually some small section). This nature also draws people to the website to find out more information before their purchase, and since satellite is ever changing, after their purchase. There is always new information to read about dish network on this board, and coming here provides the best way to access anything going on with dish (new receiver, free preview weekend, commands to use your pvr). It's like finding more information to get the best bang for your buck/maximizing your viewing information. Heck, if I didn't have access to this site, I would never have my pvr system, which is a must have now. 

Also, since there is more dish network info, it will naturally draw more dish network users in because of all the good info.


I liken dish network to AMD processors a little bit. Now I don't pay attention to that very much, but, people that buy AMD computers usually make the decision to go with AMD since Intel machines are more popular. A higher percentage of people that have AMD processors aso build their own computers. I also imagine a higher percentage of AMD users keep track of current processor trends, etc.

I don't know, this probably just described me, but I'm sure there are other people in the same boat.


----------



## John Hodgson (Mar 28, 2002)

"I'm one of those.........

I felt like a Republican in the Bronx over there.......... No matter WHAT positive thing I tried to say or no matter what question I tried to ask, I got slammed by a bunch of D* trolls chastising me for being an E* subscriber in the first place. "

Bob: 

Were you a member of the 'other site' when just the opposite was true ? Remember the daze of Bob Haller and his crystal ball ? Heaven forbid someone say anything negative about E* or St. Charlie ... you do remember those days right ? 

Over the years, site membership has ebbed and flowed from one provider to the other - the most recent - from E* to D*. (Due, IMNSHO, to the POS DishPlayer).


----------



## Guest (Jul 25, 2003)

I think most of the directv people go to dbsforums.com while most dish people go to dbstalk.com due to the biases of the administrators.


----------



## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> due to the biases of the administrators.


I don't really see much of a bias either way in the admins here. I see negative comments from them about Dish here, just as I did at the other site. The way the comments are presented here though makes a big difference. Most of the comments (with a few exceptions) here are relatively constructive. Sometimes the rampent speculation and comments with no basis in fact or comments not backed up by fact get to me and I point them out, but other than that, I think this site is pretty much neutral on the two services.


----------



## Guest (Jul 25, 2003)

We all have biases. 

For instance, Scott believes DISH will provide those exciting services and hardware platforms in the future while Dan C. doesn't believe that there is a chance in hell that could happen. If you have DISH service now, which message would you like to hear?


----------



## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

This forum gives away Dish products. Any other reason needed for why more Dish subs are here?


----------



## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

We are both unique sites, and I feel we are both GOOD sites.

I have ripped into BOTH companies for things I didn't like, and by the same token I have praised both companies when they do something well.

While I will state that I have a good relation to employees from both companies, I will not compromise my values, I call things as I see them, if they deserve to get ripped then I will rip them, and if they deserve the praise I will indeed give them the prise they deserve.

The service and hardware that Dish announced is coming, although I feel they won't come as soon as most people would like them to come.

For example the SuperDish, I feel that it will be late October before this comes to be, Dish is not even training dealers how to install the superdish's until late September.

Sometimes I feel sorry for companies like dish because of people like me or sites like ours, I know that Charlie and Dish Network are doing their damndest to get their Ducks all lined up in a row to offer all these new servces and new hardware and I feel that because of people like me or sites like ours its a Damned if you do and damned if you don't situation for companies like Dish Network who again are working to line up their ducks to bring you all these new things and then a person like me comes along and somehow finds out and reports on the Internet of their plans so eventually they have to come out and make announcements when sometimes they are not actually ready to make them.

Maybe because some of my investigative work I should be to blame , but my feeling is if I don't break the stories someone else will, and I since I take great pride in my work I would rather have you read it here from me on DBSTalk.COM then read it from someone else, somewhere else.


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I try not to be biased towards one service or the other, but it's true that I've had Dish Network for 2 years now, and never have had Directv. I don't post much about Directv because I don't know much about it, and I don't have to contacts at Directv that I have at Dish Network. 

I think that we do a good job of avoiding NEGATIVE bias against one service or the other in most cases.


----------



## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Curtis0620 said:


> This forum gives away Dish products. Any other reason needed for why more Dish subs are here?


We have also given away DirecTV equipment, we would LOVE to give away more DirecTV equipment, however there are problems in giving away DirecTV equipment, those problems being if the winner lives in a pegasus area the delaer giving us the equipment must pay a large additional fee to DirecTV or Pegasus.

If I remember correctly last time we gave away DirecTV equipment we had a hard time giving it away! All the winners selected were indeed in a Pegasus area and did not want to pay the $150 fee to get the receiver.

It is because of this problem that we have not given away any DirecTV hardware in awhile.

If a dealer out there would like to donate equipment for us to give away and are willing to eat all the costs of the receiverwe would be willing to talk to them.  Contact Mark Lamutt or Myself if you are interested!


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I am wondering if those that took the SBCA certification testing will have to do it again to install SuperDish since it is more advanced. Thats going to tick off a lot of retailers and installers.

I used to prefer Dish over DirecTv for the most part but am seeing more and more advantages of DirecTv for a while now such as their Tivo PVR's, better hardware reliability, cheaper hardware, smaller simpler dish, more DMA's only requiring the smaller dish, promised locals announcements, fast channel change, receiver graphics, smaller receivers, etc.

The reason I liked Dish over DirecTv is due to the superstations, not as strict on phone line requirement, good promotions, technology driven, free pvr functionality, no constant smart card swaps, channel packaging and organizing on EPG, cheaper basic package, $1.99 cheap warranty, and the aura of the company as a whole with Charlie Chats and so forth.


----------



## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

John Hodgson said:


> "I'm one of those.........
> 
> I felt like a Republican in the Bronx over there.......... No matter WHAT positive thing I tried to say or no matter what question I tried to ask, I got slammed by a bunch of D* trolls chastising me for being an E* subscriber in the first place. "
> 
> ...


When I first joined the other site in May 2000, it was a fairly friendly place for E* subscribers. I discovered the site when Laurie Farkas mentioned it on Channel 100. I miss her updates. Although they were sporadic, it's better than the "Remote Control" channel we have now.

Then, you're right... the Dishplayer was like a virus that poisoned all the die hards. They were even fishing around at the site for people to join them in a class action suit against E* for the problems they were having.

Did E* pooch the DP? Yes. Did they deserve to be excoriated like they were when looking at the whole E* package? No. The other site also used to wield the moderator's DELETE and CLOSE THREAD functions a little too liberally.

It IS nice however to be in fairly neutral territory again. There plenty of anti E* types here as well, but there are a lot more neutral voices as well.

Not to say that I won't flame E* when they tick me off...... only that we make sure that we praise them as well when they do right to maintain our good status with them and keep the backchannels open for new product info.

The Bad (lately): The whole 180 on HD and the purchases they expect the early adopter to absorb

The Good: the 811 coming in at $299 was initially derided as a typo by the D* faithful. This low cost receiver could be one of the things that introduces the next level of consumers to HD and helps the whole shebang reach critical mass and get it out of the early adopter arena.


----------



## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

> I think also another reason for the Dish majority here is that many of the viewers here came from another site related to DBS. When that site turned into a Dish bash fest, led by [the administrator] of the site, many members there left for here. This site has grown exponentially since.


Bingo! That's why I'm here.


----------



## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

jzoomer said:


> We all have biases.
> 
> For instance, Scott believes DISH will provide those exciting services and hardware platforms in the future while Dan C. doesn't believe that there is a chance in hell that could happen. If you have DISH service now, which message would you like to hear?


Wow, that certainly boiled it down for me. The attitude is generally more optimistic here with a belief that things will improve. The attitude on the other site had gotten to the point where E*'s imminent demise was around every corner. Although I like to think of myself as an optimist, though I also can get a little snippy when I feel taken advantage of (I also bristled at the tech chat comments about paying more)


----------



## Cheyenne (Apr 23, 2002)

This site is much more informative and enjoyable than dbsforums. The negativity got to me, in addition to the bias of the admin.


----------



## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

DBSForums was at one point, very pro-Echostar. The tide turns when the service does not live up to expectations.

Scott G has taken the contacts at Echostar that Dan Collins left behind and ran with them.

Therefore, if one wants inside information at Dish Network, one comes to DBSTalk. If one wants the limited inside information at DirecTV, one goes to DBSForums.

Many of us post at both places. And I used to get into severe flame wars, simply because I don't like misinformation. I have not been anti-Echostar; I have been anti-Echostar pom-pom, because, as Dan Collins found out, it all boiled down to service.

Both companies have very few differentiators anymore, and both are now having to compete with widespread digital cable and cable modems. It will be a rough go for a while. And I enjoy having the ability to post at both places to see what issues there are and what improvements have been made.

As to admin bias, I think it is utter crap. We have all aired our dirty laundry about our providers. We all have a bias. Anyone that has a problem with the biases of the admins over at DBSForums needs to take a look at their own biases. Why?

*Because anyone that thinks everything was fine and unbiased over at DBSForums before the threatened class-action lawsuit is having a serious problem with thought process.* Tell me how DBSForums was unbiased prior to the threatened class-action lawsuit when Dish Network subscribers outnumbered the DirecTV subscribers about 3 to 1.


----------



## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I really didn't intend for my comment to start another us vs. them situation. It took me quite some time to make the change from that other place to here because when this one started out it was more of an us vs. them site than the very useful site it has evolved into today. After the "bash the other site" posts slowed down here I made the move. Let's try to keep the us vs. them at a minimum.


----------



## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Agreed, this is not a DBSTalk -vs- DBSForum's thread.

I am a registered member and also post over there, as are most if not all the staff here from DBSTalk.

The two forums are both unique and both serve a purpose.

Some people like Coke, some people like pepsi, some like both. 

We are just glad to have YOU here today!


----------



## Tomsoundman (Jun 17, 2002)

Scott, we want to see short movies of updates by you if something exciting happens soon...


----------



## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Tom I have been wanting to do some. 

Just have not had time lately (We have been very busy and are closing on our house next week) 

I miss doing the DBSTalk.COM News Updates. But they WILL return!


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I did not have problems with them deleting my posts and so forth at dbsforums. I still read and post from time to time over there as well. I think another reason I decided to post here is also due to the fact that some members here started noticing me posting over there and responded here or said how I had posted the same thing there as I did here so I decided to post in just one place.


----------



## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

I used to frequent DBSForums as much as here. I really stopped surfing there so much because of the bandwidth limitations of the site. The DSL connection was a bit slow when compared to the blazing speed of DBStalk. Most the same info appears in one way or another at both sites, so I tend to be over here a *lot* more than over there just because it is so much easier to surf here with a high bandwidth connection.

I never thought DBSforums was antidish as much as they were antihype.


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I try to check out all the sites and then if nothing much is going on here and I am not too busy I will post at the other ones but I been so busy this past year with doing house work do to the flooding.


----------



## beegfoot (Jan 15, 2003)

I've enjoyed this forum and have recommended it to many others in the biz.

I retail both Dish and DTV, and like I tell my customers, both companies have strengths and weaknesses. You find the one best for you. I personally had Dish for 3 years before switching to DTV, which I've had for over two years.

One thing I like about Dish is their being more in tune to their subscribers. I think a weakness is their CSR's inability to make concessions to help customers with legitimate problems which alienates many. 

I like DTV's Hughes receivers over all standard receivers of both companies, and I have two TiVo's. Bottom line, both companies are great, and way better than cable TV or offair antennas!


----------



## Jacob S (Apr 14, 2002)

I would agree on that. I thought your ID looked familiar, I seen you post at DishRetailer.com


----------



## Frapp (Apr 23, 2002)

It does not really matter which forum you like/dislike better. From a factual standpoint this forum is much better on all fronts than any other entity of it`s kind:

#1) Friendlier Admins/Mods

#2) More direct informational contact/support with Echostar by the Admins

#3) Great giveaways and contest opportunities

#4) Up to the minute breaking news from all kinds of interesting resources

#5) In many cases, early programming, hardware and technical news from Echostar 

Chris took an idea and turned it ( with help from others ) into a first class, superlative DBS/Information site that is simply second to none. And when one does that, animosity from others should be expected :shrug:

When you are number one at what you are doing, there really is no YOU vs THEM theory .............. It`s simply YOU !


----------



## jrjcd (Apr 23, 2002)

"Perhaps that is another part of it, that Dish seems run by a normal individual with his Charlie Chats "

:lol: !rolling :rolling: :uglyhamme

(proper response to THAT statement by those who have been and/or am presently dealers for echostar...)


----------

