# DISH Network First to Offer All Standard and High Definition Programming in MPEG-4



## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

*DISH Network(R) First to Offer All Standard and High Definition Programming in MPEG-4

Industry's Most Advanced Delivery System Includes Best Picture Quality on Any TV*

ENGLEWOOD, Colo., Aug 25, 2008 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX News Network/ -- DISH Network Corporation (Nasdaq: DISH), the third largest pay-TV provider and the digital television leader, today became the first in the pay-TV industry to transmit all standard and high definition programming in the MPEG-4 Advanced Video Coding Standard. This milestone continues DISH Network's series of industry firsts, including the latest expansion in high definition services, the launch of TurboHD -- the only 100 percent HD service -- the availability of movies in Blu-Ray Disc quality 1080p resolution, and the commitment to offer up to 150 national HD channels by the end of the year.

New customers in 21 designated markets* in the eastern half of the U.S. who sign up for any DISH Network(R) HD package will be the first in the nation to receive the industry's most advanced delivery system on all televisions connected to DISH Network service. This includes all SD and HD programming broadcast in MPEG-4 via DISH Network's award-winning MPEG-4 HD and HD DVR receivers -- even further enhancing DISH Network's already superior picture.

"DISH Network once again leads the pack in providing customers with an unparalleled entertainment experience. Our complete MPEG-4 solution -- which will offer up to 150 HD channels by the end of the year -- uses the most advanced technology in the industry to deliver the best quality picture to any television set in the home, perfect for those who have or are considering upgrading to high definition," said Jessica Insalaco, Chief Marketing Officer for DISH Network. "We look forward to expanding this advanced service to more consumers throughout the U.S. in the coming months."

To maximize the MPEG-4 TV experience, new customers can sign up for DISH Network's recently-introduced TurboHD, the only packages in the industry featuring 100 percent HD, MPEG-4 programming, starting at $24.99 per month. TurboHD is available in three separate tiers and comprises special "turbo-charged" features and benefits such as DISH Network's award-winning and industry-leading technology, the highest quality HD available including 1080p where applicable, and the most-watched HD channels that may be viewed on any TV -- analog, digital or high definition.

Current DISH Network customers looking to add the industry's best high definition experience can get a "turbo-charged" HD package for as little as $10 more per month.

For more information about DISH Network's MPEG-4 service, 1080p programming, new HD channels, and TurboHD system and packages, visit http://www.dishnetwork.com or call 1-800-333-DISH (3474).

* The first wave of the all-MPEG-4 offer will occur in 21 markets,
including: Cleveland; Richmond, Va.; Baltimore.; Columbia, S.C.; Tampa,
Fla; Green Bay, Wis.; Greensboro, N.C.; Providence, R.I.; Greenville,
S.C., Knoxville, Tenn.; Raleigh, N.C.; Chicago; Detroit; Charlotte,
N.C.; Dallas; Nashville, Tenn.; Minneapolis, Minn.; Philadelphia.;
Washington, D.C.; New York, N.Y.; and Hartford, Conn. Additional markets
will be announced at a later date.


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## DustoMan (Jul 16, 2005)

So will customers who are in these markets, and already subscribe to HD, just get "switched over" to MPEG4 automatically?

Edit: Nevermind. I found my answer in another thread.


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## davemayo (Nov 17, 2005)

Wow, Cleveland is listed first. That's a shocker. :eek2:


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Why do just about all of the channels still look like crap?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

MarcusInMD said:


> Why do just about all of the channels still look like crap?


Are you a DISH MPEG4 subscriber?

All MPEG4 service is currently being offered on an extremely limited basis ... only new customers in 21 markets who want HD currently qualify. More markets will be added and existing customers will be able to migrate.

Limited release, but still first to market.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

I have a 622 in the Baltimore Market and receive the HD channel package. The SD channels are still crappy...The HD channels are just so-so too much macro blocking and lack of resolution.


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## kal915 (May 7, 2008)

MarcusInMD said:


> I have a 622 in the Baltimore Market and receive the HD channel package. The SD channels are still crappy...The HD channels are just so-so too much macro blocking and lack of resolution.


But are you a new customer?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Here we go again. An otherwise perfectly good statement about where Dish technology is but with:


> ...movies in Blu-Ray Disc quality 1080p resolution,....


Does this mean "Blu-Ray Disc quality" and "1080p resolution" or is it supposed to be a "fuzzy marketing" statement that for some its in 1080p resolution, for most its 1080i resolution, and for nobody is it Blu-Ray Disc quality.:nono:


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## lwien (Aug 16, 2008)

James Long said:


> -- the availability of movies in Blu-Ray Disc quality 1080p resolution......


That apparently, only about 20% of the HD sets can pass the compatibility test. As stated here as well as at 2 other sites, MOST of the HDTV's CANNOT get 1080p from dish.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Most of the nation cannot get an MPEG4 only setup _*yet*_ ... but more markets and less rules are coming. More compatible TV are coming as well.

It would be interesting to see a real comparison of 1080p TVs ... one cannot complain that their non 1080p TV fails the tests. The content is available in the best resolution that the customer's set allows. Hopefully such a claim is based on tests of Only 1080p TVs.


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## lwien (Aug 16, 2008)

James Long said:


> Most of the nation cannot get an MPEG4 only setup _*yet*_ ... but more markets and less rules are coming. More compatible TV are coming as well.
> 
> It would be interesting to see a real comparison of 1080p TVs ... one cannot complain that their non 1080p TV fails the tests. The content is available in the best resolution that the customer's set allows. Hopefully such a claim is based on tests of Only 1080p TVs.


I can complain, for my 1080p set as well as many others who have 1080p/24 sets have failed the compatibility test. I'd go so far as to say that most of the 1080p sets that have reported in here as well as at the other two sites have failed the test.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Hopefully DISH is getting those reports and working on the issues. There is only so much testing that can be done. Reporting in the appropriate forum should lead to a solution.


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

I don't understand why it would be new customers only. Wouldn't it be that if you have an MPEG4-capable receiver, you'll just get it when it's switched on?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

phrelin said:


> Does this mean "Blu-Ray Disc quality" and "1080p resolution" or is it supposed to be a "fuzzy marketing" statement that for some its in 1080p resolution, for most its 1080i resolution, and for nobody is it Blu-Ray Disc quality.:nono:


It means Blu-ray disc resolution (1920x1080p). Nothing more is expressed or implied.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Taco Lover said:


> I don't understand why it would be new customers only. Wouldn't it be that if you have an MPEG4-capable receiver, you'll just get it when it's switched on?


The idea is that at this point, there is no reason to switch people over to the new system from the old system. When there is something exclusive to the new system from a programming standpoint, the rules will likely change.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Taco Lover said:


> I don't understand why it would be new customers only. Wouldn't it be that if you have an MPEG4-capable receiver, you'll just get it when it's switched on?


DISH has decided to scramble the new channels in a way that requires the new G3 Smartcard. The channels are active on current MPEG-4 equipment - but without that card you can't watch them.

The good news is as the new Smartcards go out customers will be able to get the channels from the new locations. Personally I plan on having a hybrid system ... let my MPEG-4 equipment see 61.5° and 72.7° for MPEG4 and my MPEG-2 equipment will continue to work off of 119° and 110° ...


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## jbast (Feb 9, 2007)

So now you Dish people have to get new equipment and have 2 separate dishes to get all your SD and HD content? What a messed up system. With D* you have one dish and can connect to all sat's and equipment is already mpeg-4


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jbast said:


> So now you Dish people have to get new equipment and have 2 separate dishes to get all your SD and HD content? What a messed up system. With D* you have one dish and can connect to all sat's and equipment is already mpeg-4


The new service is a single dish service with that dish aimed at 77°/72.7°/61.5°. The dish is about the same size as a Phase III dish and all three locations are DBS satellites ... no ka band or large dishes needed.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

harsh said:


> It means Blu-ray disc resolution (1920x1080p). Nothing more is expressed or implied.


"Blu-Ray disc resolution" and "Blu-Ray disc _*quality*_ resolution" mean two different things to me, but I'm always reading things into those extra words....


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

James Long said:


> DISH has decided to scramble the new channels in a way that requires the new G3 Smartcard. The channels are active on current MPEG-4 equipment - but without that card you can't watch them.
> 
> The good news is as the new Smartcards go out customers will be able to get the channels from the new locations. Personally I plan on having a hybrid system ... let my MPEG-4 equipment see 61.5° and 72.7° for MPEG4 and my MPEG-2 equipment will continue to work off of 119° and 110° ...


I see, the smartcard rollout has something to do with it.


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## raylock (Feb 4, 2006)

James Long said:


> The new service is a single dish service with that dish aimed at 77°/72.7°/61.5°. The dish is about the same size as a Phase III dish and all three locations are DBS satellites ... no ka band or large dishes needed.


Currently see 61.5 but won't be able to see 72.7 or 77 due to obstructions. We do see 110 and 118, of course. Will the new system change what we are able to see? Thanks


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## owensdj (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm in one of the first wave markets. Will Dish be switching customers with all SD to receivers that support MPEG-4 if they wish? Seems like Dish would want to migrate all customers to MPEG-4 so they could drop the MPEG-2 SD channels to save bandwidth.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> Currently see 61.5 but won't be able to see 72.7 or 77 due to obstructions. We do see 110 and 118, of course. Will the new system change what we are able to see? Thanks


No, you can't see them right now due to physical limitations. Unless the obstructions are removed, you'll never see those locations



> I'm in one of the first wave markets. Will Dish be switching customers with all SD to receivers that support MPEG-4 if they wish? Seems like Dish would want to migrate all customers to MPEG-4 so they could drop the MPEG-2 SD channels to save bandwidth.


eventually, yes, for now new customers only are getting it.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

phrelin said:


> "Blu-Ray disc resolution" and "Blu-Ray disc _*quality*_ resolution" mean two different things to me, but I'm always reading things into those extra words....


Let it go... :shrug:


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> So now you Dish people have to get new equipment and have 2 separate dishes to get all your SD and HD content? What a messed up system. With D* you have one dish and can connect to all sat's and equipment is already mpeg-4


is all of D*'s equipment really mpeg4 already?


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

puckwithahalo said:


> is all of D*'s equipment really mpeg4 already?


I don't think so, they are working on getting all of their HD equipment mpeg4 but, they still have plenty of mpeg 2 sd equipment. They do have more one dish solutions but, that 5 sat dish looks like a two headed goat with earthquake bracing hanging off of it.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> I don't think so, they are working on getting all of their HD equipment mpeg4 but, they still have plenty of mpeg 2 sd equipment. They do have more one dish solutions but, that 5 sat dish looks like a two headed goat with earthquake bracing hanging off of it.


that's what i thought.

jbast,

the whole point of the eastern arc is a single dish solution that will provide all of a customer's SD and HD programming in MPEG-4. So basically the exact opposite of what you were saying.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

Given the limitations that DISH has backed itself into over the years:

1. Failure to develop, design, and field (not to mention the cost) of a national-beam Ka-Band satellites and equipment.

2. The limitations of the Ku/DBS-Band orbital assignments (including renting or borrowing slots owned by Canada).

Actually, the East/West orbital scheme, coupled with the Mpeg4 compression, is a pretty good idea. Doing a basic cost-analysis of replacing out all those Mpeg2 receivers is about as expensive (quick rule of thumb, say $200 per unit, something like 15million units) as retooling the orbital bandwidth (with Ku/DBS or going with Ka). But $3B is still $3B, or thereabouts

Also, of course, add the cost of replacing and realigning the dish assembly, where the labor is the chief cost component. 

At the end of the day, 2-3 years from now (both arc's up and operating), it may all work out. But during that time, there will be a LOT of dual-casting of both types of signals from multiple sats.


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## 17pointer (Nov 16, 2007)

jbast said:


> So now you Dish people have to get new equipment and have 2 separate dishes to get all your SD and HD content? What a messed up system. With D* you have one dish and can connect to all sat's and equipment is already mpeg-4


I mostly just read these forums, but it's amazing how the D folks think their systems are so much more advanced. My sister just went to D Two dishes were needed as the locals were on a different Sat. Add to that the 6 or 8 cable runs from the dishes to the switch, what a mess.

With E I have 2 dual tuners, 1 dish, and only two cable runs, 1 to each TV. Also I have diplexed in the off air antenna (again only 1 cable to each receiver which is impossible to do with D). It's great that D, in your mind so much more advanced, stick to the D forums and enjoy all the holes in your wall.

E by far has the most advanced equipment on the market. It may cost them money to move everyone to MPEG-4 in the future, but it will also limit support cost for all the old recievers. Leasing the recievers is a benifit, most recievers they can mod to make MPEG-4 and put right back on the market.


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## seltech (Feb 5, 2008)

17pointer said:


> I mostly just read these forums, but it's amazing how the D folks think their systems are so much more advanced. My sister just went to D Two dishes were needed as the locals were on a different Sat. Add to that the 6 or 8 cable runs from the dishes to the switch, what a mess.


stop spreading mis information, D* doesn't install dual dish setups for locals, either she got a 5 lnb slimline dish or she doesn't have D*. and go see the SWM8 for your cabling woes. :nono:


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> Actually, the East/West orbital scheme, coupled with the Mpeg4 compression, is a pretty good idea. Doing a basic cost-analysis of replacing out all those Mpeg2 receivers is about as expensive (quick rule of thumb, say $200 per unit, something like 15million units) as retooling the orbital bandwidth (with Ku/DBS or going with Ka). But $3B is still $3B, or thereabouts
> 
> Also, of course, add the cost of replacing and realigning the dish assembly, where the labor is the chief cost component.


one thing to remember, not everyone in Eastern Arc area will go to EA installs. eventually 119 and 110 will go mpeg4 as well, so people who already have those installs will maintain them. I imagine the only time people will change from one to the other will be when they do a move, or if they choose to pay to have it done. So really the main cost will be switching out the mpeg2 receivers for mpeg4. Those who already have a western arc install (119 and 110 for those that don't know or haven't guessed yet) but fall in cities with 61.5 for locals will have a wing dish added for the 61.5.

I suspect things will go in this order

1) only customer's getting new installs with HD programming and within the desginated areas will get EA installs

2) Once the everyone has been upgraded to the G3 smartcards, current customers moving into EA areas and with all mpeg4 receivers will get EA installs. They might possibly begin upgrading customer's to mpeg4 receivers when moving into an EA area around this point as well.

3) everyone else will begin to be upgraded to all mpeg4 equipment. Those in EA areas with WA installs will probably have the wing dish for 61.5 installed around now too.

4) once that is done, all programming will switch over to mpeg4

This is just my opinion, and not based upon any special knowlege or information. Simply a hunch. The biggest thing to point out there, is that not all customer's in EA areas will get the full EA install, most already there will simply have the wing dish added, so minimal changed installs and minimizing the cost of the equipment needed.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

seltech said:


> stop spreading mis information, D* doesn't install dual dish setups for locals, either she got a 5 lnb slimline dish or she doesn't have D*. and go see the SWM8 for your cabling woes. :nono:


Absolutely FALSE, when I had D* in 2006 after a move from Hershey to the Johnstown/Altoona, PA area I had the 5lnb dish and a seperate dish for my locals (Johnstown/Altoona, PA), I had the HR10-250 Tivo box (Hershey) which was then replaced with HR20-700 (Thank God the HR10-250 was garbage), but since then I have gone with E* when I moved again.


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## 17pointer (Nov 16, 2007)

seltech said:


> stop spreading mis information, D* doesn't install dual dish setups for locals, either she got a 5 lnb slimline dish or she doesn't have D*. and go see the SWM8 for your cabling woes. :nono:


D certainly does install multiple dishes. Anyone in Central Wisconsin will tell you that much. My sister has two dishes on their roof pointed in totally different directions. And that Sire is because D locals in certain markets are on a totally different sat.

Get your story straight and learn your system before commenting. Just because you have 1 dish doesn't mean everyone does. It varies by market. Looks like you need to learn your system more before you spread more false information. Shame on you.


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## dewey brunner (May 1, 2006)

Those of you that can see 61.5 and do not think you will be able to see 72.7-------The 1000.4 dish lnb's are clustered and the line of sight is very close. When you lock on 61.5 ,72.7 and 77 will be automatically locked.n The 1000.4 dish is the best engineered dish they have ever offered. very stable and lnbs built together as one unit with braces on the shaft for stability plus the dish itself is larger than the 1000.


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## brector (Aug 25, 2008)

Well I am a new dish sub, got it installed yesterday. I am in the knoxille, TN market, and got the new single dish aimed at the eastern block.

I switched from commiecast. My impressions so far, about twice as many HD channels. SD looks as good as commiecast, as does HD. TV is a sony 60" 1080p set with HDMI

The installer said the new eastern signal is lower in strength than the southwestern - is this true?

-Brian


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

it is lower strength i believe (i can't remember off the top of my head for sure), but the deish is pointed much more precisely. it has fine tuning adjustments on it that allow for it. Also, the seperation of the three satellites is much less than the western arc, which i believe also allows for it. And last, but not least, there is a larger 1000.5 dish for areas where signal is an issue.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Seems to me that in order to reap the full benefits having having an eastern and western arc, DISH will need to get to where the HD locals come off of EITHER 61.5 or 129, not both, as is presently the case for some markets like Atlanta.

I also think they will make a play for all 32 transponders at 72.7 when the DirecTV lease is up. They have already filed for such usage.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> Seems to me that in order to reap the full benefits having having an eastern and western arc, DISH will need to get to where the HD locals come off of EITHER 61.5 or 129, not both, as is presently the case for some markets like Atlanta.


that's the plan as i understand it


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## dewey brunner (May 1, 2006)

In Tampa I get four major network local HD programming off of 61.5 and remainder with off air antenna. A few months ago my local hd reception was so bad off 129 I put up a 500 aimed at 61.5. Then reception was great. With the new eastern arc antenna, 1000.4. reception and stability is outstanding which utilizes three lnb's as one unit, one for 61.5, another for 72.7 and another for 77(which I do not think will be used for a while). The dish is larger and has stability braces for the mast and additional adjustments for minute adjustments. No reception problems in Fl. when storms went thru. Dish has really come thru with this Eastern Arc (which I do not has been released yet, just in testing stages)


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Isn't AT&T's UVerse system all MPEG4?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-verse

_"Unlike traditional offerings from U.S. cable companies, video is delivered over IP from the head end to the consumer's set-top box. U-verse uses H.264 (MPEG-4 AVC) encoding which compresses video more efficiently than the traditional MPEG-2."_

Wouldn't that make AT&T Uverse the first all MPEG4 service?


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

17pointer said:


> D certainly does install multiple dishes. Anyone in Central Wisconsin will tell you that much. My sister has two dishes on their roof pointed in totally different directions. And that Sire is because D locals in certain markets are on a totally different sat.
> 
> Get your story straight and learn your system before commenting. Just because you have 1 dish doesn't mean everyone does. It varies by market. Looks like you need to learn your system more before you spread more false information. Shame on you.


I can tell you that for most of the country it is much more likely that a Dish sub will have multiple dishes than it a Direct sub. Think about it, most of Direct's birds lie over the central portion of the US while Dish relies on two different arcs.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

jbast said:


> So now you Dish people have to get new equipment and have 2 separate dishes to get all your SD and HD content? What a messed up system. With D* you have one dish and can connect to all sat's and equipment is already mpeg-4


You took James's statement that he would be running both systems out of context. He is doing that to be able to do a comparison. No one needs to switch to avoid loosing anything.

D*s older receivers are not mpeg4. If they were the HD DirecTivos wouldn't need to be switched. One dish for all channels. No-one with E* needs new equipment to keep getting all the channels. Maybe many years down the road mpeg2 receivers will need to swapped out for mpeg4 equipment. The same will be happening to D* customers too eventually.

Plus being DBS satellites the E* satellites are more rain fade resistant than the D* solution for HD with non DBS satellites.

The big benefit to the Eastern Arc is that it will give more options for customers with line of sight problems. Between the Eastern Arc and the Western Arc the average customer should have a better chance of not being tree'd out then a D* customer.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

Dish customers with the 811, 921 and 942 have to swap their receivers to keep getting HD.


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## 17pointer (Nov 16, 2007)

DodgerKing said:


> I can tell you that for most of the country it is much more likely that a Dish sub will have multiple dishes than it a Direct sub. Think about it, most of Direct's birds lie over the central portion of the US while Dish relies on two different arcs.


You can tell me that for a fact? Please provide the documentation.

My post didn't say anything about E not having some multiple dish setups. My response was to another D subscriber that said D doesn't have any multi dish setups. I was just pointing out another D subscriber Lie. I'm glad you like D enjoy the substandard technology:lol:


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

TBoneit said:


> The big benefit to the Eastern Arc is that it will give more options for customers with line of sight problems. Between the Eastern Arc and the Western Arc the average customer should have a better chance of not being tree'd out then a D* customer.


that may be for now, but due to bandwidth needs won't DISH be eventually shutting off the eastern market local channels from the western arc? eastern markets locals on eastern arc birds only, western market locals on western arc birds only. that being the "end state"?


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

17pointer said:


> You can tell me that for a fact? Please provide the documentation.
> 
> My post didn't say anything about E not having some multiple dish setups. My response was to another D subscriber that said D doesn't have any multi dish setups. I was just pointing out another D subscriber Lie. I'm glad you like D enjoy the substandard technology:lol:


I do agree with the fact that it does vary by location. But, more locations do require multiple dishes from Dish than do from Direct. Even though I quoted you, it was more a clarity from the original poster of this particular issue who made it seem as if Direct must have multiple Dishes while Dish does not.

Anyway, it is not very relevant, just a point of clarity. It only matters to those in a particular location who may or may not need extra dishes. That is all I have to say. I don't want to derail this any further than it already has.

Congrats for those new subs in the selected markets on the east coast.


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## brector (Aug 25, 2008)

puckwithahalo said:


> it is lower strength i believe (i can't remember off the top of my head for sure), but the deish is pointed much more precisely. it has fine tuning adjustments on it that allow for it. Also, the seperation of the three satellites is much less than the western arc, which i believe also allows for it. And last, but not least, there is a larger 1000.5 dish for areas where signal is an issue.


Cool, thanks! My installer said it was the first one he has done, and they were just trained a week ago

Edit - I got the 1000.5 dish

-Brian


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## Wind_River (Feb 6, 2006)

I thought D* was DirecTV and E* was dish. Are we talking Direct here? Or dish. I'm so sorry to return to the forum with this question.


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## Christopher Gould (Jan 14, 2007)

17pointer said:


> You can tell me that for a fact? Please provide the documentation.
> 
> My post didn't say anything about E not having some multiple dish setups. My response was to another D subscriber that said D doesn't have any multi dish setups. I was just pointing out another D subscriber Lie. I'm glad you like D enjoy the substandard technology:lol:


the second dish that you need for D* is the 72.5 slot. it has about a dozen local markets on it. it is scheduled to be gone within the year, the other possibably is 95 for international channels which i think maybe gone by next year. so unless your in one of those dozen markets or international programming u only need one dish for everything. i believe my market is moving off next month.

D* also is rolling out SWM, which uses a single wire. so u will have fewer line into your house.


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## portagent (Jan 5, 2006)

So, is my leased 722VIP with an everything package receiving mpeg2 or mpeg4 signals?

I recently downloaded a PPV Dish on Demand movie and have never seen by Aquos 1080P so clear. I mean it was a really nice picture.

Am I going to notice a difference on all the other channels ?


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## kariato (Dec 16, 2002)

Couple of questions:
1) What is the savings of in bandwidth of MPEG4 8PSK vs MPEG2 QPSK.
It must be huge. I noticed that when saving to an External Hard Drive it seems to be about 2GB per hour verses 10GB per hour OTA. The SD MPEG2 seems to take the same amount of dish space as HD MPEG4. It seems that an HD channel will use less sprectrum than a SD channel given the modulation and encoding. 

2) How much does it cost them for a dish 1000 verses a what is needed for a 61.5-77 set up.

3) Is this a move to get the whole east coast on a seperate setup from the west.
I know that itwould be attractive to certain west coast viewers to get the west coast version of some channels. This could be a competitve advantage over D*.

4) Is the MPEG4 chipset so much more expensive than the MPEG2 chip set? Given that they've got it down to a single chip set it can't be that expensive. I imagine that the cost of installation is higher than the equipment.

5) Will they eliminate the SD version of certan channels to focus on the HD versions. Will they stop broadcasting USA-SD and just leave USA-HD.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Your VIP722 is receiving both MPEG2 & MPEG4.

HD is pretty much all MPEG4 and the SD channels are MPEG2 unless you are a Eastern Arc sub with a dish pointed there.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> So, is my leased 722VIP with an everything package receiving mpeg2 or mpeg4 signals?


right now it is receiving both, eventually it will all be mpeg4


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

DodgerKing said:


> I can tell you that for most of the country it is much more likely that a Dish sub will have multiple dishes than it a Direct sub. Think about it, most of Direct's birds lie over the central portion of the US while Dish relies on two different arcs.


I am thinking about it ... and most of DirecTV's services are on the 101° to 119° arc - not much different from the 110° to 129° arc used by DISH.

DISH has expanded the service by using 61.5° and 148° ... now their focus is on putting the entire service for half of the country on one arc ... 61.5° to 77° ... instead of requiring multiple dishes for certain customers.

It is a decision ... DISH has more channels on the satellites than DirecTV and they are trying to provide service via DBS (the goal: higher power and a smaller dish).


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Does all of Dishes current hardware, including their SD only boxes, decode MPEG-4?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Does DirecTV offer an MPEG-4 only package?

That is the point that DISH is making ... they are offering a package that is all MPEG-4 ... zero MPEG-2.
That's the topic of this thread. All SD and HD programming in MPEG-4. DISH is offering that.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

James Long said:


> I am thinking about it ... and most of DirecTV's services are on the 101° to 119° arc - not much different from the 110° to 129° arc used by DISH.


Actually, they have been moving aggressively to the 99-103 arc over the last few months; all the newer LIL's are Ka/Mpeg4 (both SD and HD), in addition of course to all the HD services are now in the 'similcast' phase where the older nationals on 110/119 have already moved to 99/Ka.

Exactly what will happen to the 110/119 either as a transition or eventually, is a bit closely held right now; there are a few SD national channels (spanish) still on 119. The LIL's on 72.5 could either be converted over to the Ka at 99/103, or flow over to either of the older Ku/DBS sats at 110/119; I'd bet on the Ka (along with the Ku Internationals off the leased space at 95), but that's total conjecture.

But it looks as though the goal is to concentrate on the 99-103, using Ka/Mpeg4 as the base for the future for national coverage.

Also, I'm sure that at some point, my old Dish Mpeg2 SD receiver will bit the electronic dust as the system(s) out west are upgraded. But probably a good 2-3 years from now.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I forgot about 99° ... 

If DirecTV doesn't want 119° I'm sure DISH would take those 11 transponders. 
The three at 110° wold also be useful.

DirecTV is in the same boat as DISH needing to support MPEG2 for years as they transition customers to MPEG4.


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## HDRoberts (Dec 11, 2007)

17pointer said:


> I mostly just read these forums, but it's amazing how the D folks think their systems are so much more advanced. My sister just went to D Two dishes were needed as the locals were on a different Sat. Add to that the 6 or 8 cable runs from the dishes to the switch, what a mess.


I couldn't agree more. Far too many Directv customers on this board drink the Kool-aid and are convinced Dish is a second rate provider. Dish has had single wire multiplexing technology for many years, but some act like DTVs SWM is a revolution. 3 1/2 years ago with our first Dish install this was standard; no charge. Here I'm reading of many that are spending $100+ for a DTV SWM LNB. Also, Echostar 9 had an experimental Ka payload of its own, so it is not like Dish didn't look in at that technology (although I do think it was a mistake not to pursue it). Also, some in a recent thread on the DTV side implied Dish wasn't looking it DVB-S2. From what I've read they have already incorporated much of the technology.



1948GG said:


> Actually, they have been moving aggressively to the 99-103 arc over the last few months; all the newer LIL's are Ka/Mpeg4 (both SD and HD), in addition of course to all the HD services are now in the 'similcast' phase where the older nationals on 110/119 have already moved to 99/Ka.
> 
> Exactly what will happen to the 110/119 either as a transition or eventually, is a bit closely held right now; there are a few SD national channels (spanish) still on 119. The LIL's on 72.5 could either be converted over to the Ka at 99/103, or flow over to either of the older Ku/DBS sats at 110/119; I'd bet on the Ka (along with the Ku Internationals off the leased space at 95), but that's total conjecture.
> 
> But it looks as though the goal is to concentrate on the 99-103, using Ka/Mpeg4 as the base for the future for national coverage.


I would highly doubt Directv plans to abandon service at 110 and 119. If they stopped using it, or perhaps just added filler, no doubt Dish would have an application on the FCCs doorstep to reclaim the bandwidth.

I never got why a TP swap never worked out for 110 and 119. DTV would gain a lot, not having to park a sat for 3 TPs. But I heard that it was, in fact, DTV that made unreasonable demands (6 119 TPs for 3 110), blocking the proposal.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

puckwithahalo said:


> And last, but not least, there is a larger 1000.5 dish for areas where signal is an issue.


I heard of this for the first time yesterday. Any details on dimensions or which areas may need it? Does it use the same 3-LNB assembly as the 1000.4?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

It's a bit bigger.


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## grog (Jul 3, 2007)

I want one..
Do they have a roof mount model? :balloons:



phrelin said:


> It's a bit bigger.


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## shadough (Dec 31, 2006)

Heres a question: Where was the VOOM Sat?? Was it 61.5? The reason I ask is, I have a co-worker who wants to get some sort of service, primarily HD. He's had Dish out and they told him he had no line of sight. I'm pretty sure there are some trees blocking the western ARC. BUT he USED to have VOOM so that means he's still got a dish thats aiming there, if thats anywhere in the neighborhood of the eastern ARC, he might now have a chance to be a dishnet customer.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Voom was at 61.5 I believe and 61.5 is part of the Eastern Arc, along with 72.7 and 77.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

yes, it uses the exact same lnb


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> Heres a question: Where was the VOOM Sat?? Was it 61.5? The reason I ask is, I have a co-worker who wants to get some sort of service, primarily HD. He's had Dish out and they told him he had no line of sight. I'm pretty sure there are some trees blocking the western ARC. BUT he USED to have VOOM so that means he's still got a dish thats aiming there, if thats anywhere in the neighborhood of the eastern ARC, he might now have a chance to be a dishnet customer.


there's a good chance he could then.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The issue would be trees slightly to the right of his Voom alignment (standing behind the DISH). DC is one of the first markets so he should be able to get the service now (as a new customer).


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## Deke Rivers (Jan 8, 2007)

James Long said:


> *DISH Network(R) First to Offer All Standard and High Definition Programming in MPEG-4
> 
> Industry's Most Advanced Delivery System Includes Best Picture Quality on Any TV*
> 
> ...


what does this mean for me? Im a current customer with GoldHD with PlatinumHD, America's Top 250 ..im getting really confused with all thses new packages..geez


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

James Long said:


> I forgot about 99° ...
> 
> If DirecTV doesn't want 119° I'm sure DISH would take those 11 transponders.
> The three at 110° wold also be useful.
> ...


However, unlike DISH, DirecTV is still selling MPEG-2 only SD boxes I believe, so it appears any plans they might have to transition 101/Ku from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 is a long way off.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Deke Rivers said:


> what does this mean for me? Im a current customer with GoldHD with PlatinumHD, America's Top 250 ..im getting really confused with all thses new packages..geez


Maybe some more channels, soon....


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

kariato said:


> Couple of questions:
> 1) What is the savings of in bandwidth of MPEG4 8PSK vs MPEG2 QPSK.


Is it confirmed Dish is using 8PSK with their MPEG-4 service? If so, that probably helps explain how they are able to squeeze so many HD channels on to the bandwidth of the eastern arc.

I read DirecTV is still using QPSK even with DVB-S2 with their MPEG-4 offereings due the issue with the Ka band. Don't know if that is accurate or not.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> what does this mean for me? Im a current customer with GoldHD with PlatinumHD, America's Top 250 ..im getting really confused with all thses new packages..geez


as of right now, it means exactly nothing to you  Down the road it may mean a change for your dish outside, and if you have any mpeg2 receivers, eventually they will have to be upgraded, but that's a ways off for you.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

The only way I see it impacting you is when at some remote time mpeg2 channels are shut off and you have mpeg2 only receivers or if your locals move to the Eastern arc.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tkrandall said:


> However, unlike DISH, DirecTV is still selling MPEG-2 only SD boxes I believe,


DISH is still selling MPEG2 SD boxes. 

The difference is that DISH has begun it's migration to 100% MPEG4 by offering all SD and HD channels in MPEG4 ... not that they have ceased offering the old systems.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

tkrandall said:


> Is it confirmed Dish is using 8PSK with their MPEG-4 service?


Yes, as well as the remaining MPEG-2 HD channels. Check recent Uplink Activity threads. There would be no reason to not use 8PSK as Dish has no MPEG-4 receivers that don't see it. The move from QPSK is what obsoleted the 5000 for HD and required to "Enhanced HD" module for the 6000.


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## Deke Rivers (Jan 8, 2007)

puckwithahalo said:


> as of right now, it means exactly nothing to you  Down the road it may mean a change for your dish outside, and if you have any mpeg2 receivers, eventually they will have to be upgraded, but that's a ways off for you.


I have a DIsh 1000 dish and a VIP 622..


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## dewey brunner (May 1, 2006)

you will probably have to change dish to a 1000.4 or some areas will need the 1000.5 The 622 should be fine.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> I have a DIsh 1000 dish and a VIP 622..


The 622 is fine, you'll eventually get a wing dish for 61.5, though there may be some option to get the 1000.4 eventually, that has yet to be seen


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## neOHIOdishNETWORKdealer-1 (Apr 27, 2008)

Eastern Arc Reception MPEG 4 subscriptions require the following:

1) The Eastern Arc Satellite – DISH 1000.4 – Eastern Arc customers need an equipment solution that sees all three orbital locations (61.5°, 72.7°, and 77°). The DISH 1000.4 antenna was developed specifically for Eastern Arc customers and will be the standard antenna for Eastern Arc. 


2) A pure MPEG-4 system:

Eastern Arc MPEG-4 / HD Receivers: – ViP211 TM – ViP222 TM – ViP612 TM DVR – ViP622 TM DVR – ViP722 TM DVR only! No Legacy, No MPEG 2, No Dish PRO Recievers or DVRs, as there will be no MPEG 2 format signals for them to receiver off of the eastern arc satellites (61.5°, 72.7°, and 77°) which will provide all core programming. And probably no authorization to view the MPEG 2 versions of the programming off the western arc satellites 129 119 and 110. This could really mess up your camping trip to California!

Don't expect the Western arc to change over to MPEG 4 for a long time until echostar requires every subscribed non MPEG 4 receiver to be replaced, that's probably about 90 % of the receivers out there. Unless they come up with a MPEG 4 to MPEG 2 DTV Convertor that could plug into the LNBF line, of the receiver. The device would interpet what channel the receiver is trying to watch and switch to the appropriate satellite and transponder and recieve the MPEG 4 data stream for that transponder and convert it to the MPEG 2 standard then modulate it in QPSK on the standard intermedite frequencies the MPEG 2 reciever can recieve.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

neOHIOdishNETWORKdealer said:


> Eastern Arc Reception MPEG 4 subscriptions require the following:
> 
> 1) The Eastern Arc Satellite - DISH 1000.4 - Eastern Arc customers need an equipment solution that sees all three orbital locations (61.5°, 72.7°, and 77°). The DISH 1000.4 antenna was developed specifically for Eastern Arc customers and will be the standard antenna for Eastern Arc.


Or the 1000.5 in certain areas. Based on the current plan for EA one technically only needs 61.5° and 72.7° ... if one's locals end up on 77° one will need all three slots.

DISH is currently selling EA with the 1000.4 and 1000.5 dishes ... the key missing ingredient is a G3 smartcard for anyone who wants to homebrew their own EA setup. As current customers receive those they should be able to see EA feeds.


> 2) A pure MPEG-4 system:
> 
> Eastern Arc MPEG-4 / HD Receivers: - ViP211 TM - ViP222 TM - ViP612 TM DVR - ViP622 TM DVR - ViP722 TM DVR only! No Legacy, No MPEG 2, No Dish PRO Recievers or DVRs, as there will be no MPEG 2 format signals for them to receiver off of the eastern arc satellites (61.5°, 72.7°, and 77°) which will provide all core programming. And probably no authorization to view the MPEG 2 versions of the programming off the western arc satellites 129 119 and 110. This could really mess up your camping trip to California!


Probably? My receivers were authorized to see the EA signals immediately last week as part of my regular DISH subscription. They failed to display because of the smartcard issue (please DISH, send me G3 cards  ). But I, as an existing customer, am authorized to view those channels. I see no reason for DISH to block their customers from either arc and no sign that they are doing so.


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## Deke Rivers (Jan 8, 2007)

dewey brunner said:


> you will probably have to change dish to a 1000.4 or some areas will need the 1000.5 The 622 should be fine.


thats what i need another knucklehead tech from Dish on my roof again :nono:


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

James Long said:


> Probably? My receivers were authorized to see the EA signals immediately last week as part of my regular DISH subscription. They failed to display because of the smartcard issue (please DISH, send me G3 cards  ). But I, as an existing customer, am authorized to view those channels. I see no reason for DISH to block their customers from either arc and no sign that they are doing so.


This is an interesting comment. I hope I'm reading it right and that it means what I hope it means.

I'm on the east coast, and I have two dishes on my house (110/119 and 61.5.) When I take a recever in the motorhome, it's with a portable Dish 500 (110/119.) Without the second dish, that means I have no HD while on the road (other than recordings.) Rather than get a second dish, I figured I would hold out until I can get a 1000.4 for a single dish solution.

My question is will I need to do anything with Dish Network to get authorized to use the eastern arc satellites? From this post, it seems like all I will need to do is wait until I get a new smart card, and then buy a new dish, and it should all work? I'd be using the new eastern arc while on the road, and the existing two dish setup at home. Will that work? (The two dishes are already there, I see no reason to swap them out at home if I don't have to do it.)

Will there be a charge for the new smart card? Is there any way to request one sooner, rather than waiting for them to get around to sending one?

And one last question... anybody have any idea how far west I could travel and still be able to use a 1000.4 for eastern arc?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

ShapeShifter said:


> My question is will I need to do anything with Dish Network to get authorized to use the eastern arc satellites? From this post, it seems like all I will need to do is wait until I get a new smart card, and then buy a new dish, and it should all work? I'd be using the new eastern arc while on the road, and the existing two dish setup at home. Will that work? (The two dishes are already there, I see no reason to swap them out at home if I don't have to do it.)


Based on what I've seen, you shouldn't have to ask special permission. No guarantees. Also you shouldn't need a new "travel" dish. You should be able to aim your Dish 500 at 61.5° and 72.7° and get all the signals you can get (if your locals end up on 77° you wouldn't get them on the road without a different dish or aiming). Spotbeamed locals from 61.5° and potentially 77° will not be able to be viewed outside of the spot beam's coverage.


> Will there be a charge for the new smart card? Is there any way to request one sooner, rather than waiting for them to get around to sending one?


Free if you wait (as with previous swaps). I don't believe they are ready for individual requests and you'd likely just confuse the CSRs by asking (or get a current smart card).


> And one last question... anybody have any idea how far west I could travel and still be able to use a 1000.4 for eastern arc?


The Mississippi River would be a good line ... with some coverage to the west but not too far. There is a map in the Eastern Arc thread. Note that spotbeamed locals would only be available when you are close to home.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

Cool, this is all good news.



James Long said:


> Also you shouldn't need a new "travel" dish. You should be able to aim your Dish 500 at 61.5° and 72.7° and get all the signals you can get (if your locals end up on 77° you wouldn't get them on the road without a different dish or aiming).


What will be on 77, what would I lose by not having it? I'm interested in getting everything on my subscription, especially HD (which I guess will stay on 61.5?)



> Spotbeamed locals from 61.5° and potentially 77° will not be able to be viewed outside of the spot beam's coverage.


A good point. I do understand the limitations of spot beams. I'll just have to deal with that, or get DNS if it becomes an issue (which it hasn't yet.) I wonder if DNS channels will be available on 61.5/72.7?



> Free if you wait (as with previous swaps).


I like free! :righton:



> I don't believe they are ready for individual requests and you'd likely just confuse the CSRs by asking (or get a current smart card).


I'm not really surprised by that! 



> The Mississippi River would be a good line ... with some coverage to the west but not too far. There is a map in the Eastern Arc thread.


I can live with that. If I go farther than that, and they aren't locking you into a particular set of satellites (which it appears they don't) then I guess I will revert back to the Dish 500 110/119 setup and forgo the HD for that trip.

This is all very encouraging. This RV season will be over soon, I can live without HD for now (I _am camping_, after all: sacrifices have to be made!) It would be nice to be able to switch to the eastern arc in the spring, hopefully new cards will be out by then...

Thanks for the info, you da man! :bowdown:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The listing I've seen has HD locals on 77° ... nothing else.
Of course that may not be accurate and is subject to change.
(The listing came from DISH, but that still doesn't make it accurate.  )


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## shadough (Dec 31, 2006)

DNS is only on 119


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

James Long said:


> The listing I've seen has HD locals on 77° ... nothing else.


OK, so I probably won't need a new dish, just re-aim the current one. Cool.



shadough said:


> DNS is only on 119


I've lived without it so far, so I guess this just confirms that I shouldn't bother considering it in the future. But that brings up an interesting point... eastern arc travellers can't have DNS service without taking along another dish? I wonder if they will eventually duplicate DNS channels on the new sats?
_____

Thanks everybody, for your answers. It's very encouraging, looks like the transition will be easier than I hoped. I guess I can sit back now, wait for the new smart cards to arrive, and plan on having my HD channels when I de-winterize the motorhome in the spring.


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## shadough (Dec 31, 2006)

Right now the DNS is not offered by E*. E* is leasing out their transponder to a 3rd party, AAD. So in order for it to be on the eastern arc, E* would need to allow AAD to lease out more space on the eastern ARC side.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

shadough said:


> Right now the DNS is not offered by E*. E* is leasing out their transponder to a 3rd party, AAD. So in order for it to be on the eastern arc, E* would need to allow AAD to lease out more space on the eastern ARC side.


That confirms my assumptions. What satellite are they on now? (I am assuming 110 or 119, but maybe it's 129?)


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

As long a E* makes sure that none of the eastern arc markets are without locals they will never have to worry about leaseing more space to AAD.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

jclewter79 said:


> As long a E* makes sure that none of the eastern arc markets are without locals they will never have to worry about leaseing more space to AAD.


Can you explain your logic on this one? 

I don't see how having a lot of local markets eliminates the need for Distant Network Services. How does this help people who use the service on the road and routinely travel outside of their local area spot beam? How does this help people who are full-timers on the road and don't have a permanent local address, and therefore no local market?


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

ShapeShifter said:


> Can you explain your logic on this one?
> 
> I don't see how having a lot of local markets eliminates the need for Distant Network Services. How does this help people who use the service on the road and routinely travel outside of their local area spot beam? How does this help people who are full-timers on the road and don't have a permanent local address, and therefore no local market?


Very simple, RV'ers will not be on eastern arc. If they are smart, the will do it just like I said and only allow people that have locals be on the eastern arc and, therefore they do not have to lease out anymore bandwidth to AAD. It appears that they are dedicating one whole bird in the eastern arc just for locals so I don't why they would need distants. Anybody with an RV account get a 1000.2 and stays on the old arc and, anybody cheating and hauling around boxes from their house in the RV well sorry.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

ShapeShifter said:


> That confirms my assumptions. What satellite are they on now? (I am assuming 110 or 119, but maybe it's 129?)


119.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

jclewter79 said:


> Anybody with an RV account get a 1000.2 and stays on the old arc


OK, so with their 1000.2 the RV owner can get their DNS over 119, their regular stations on 110 and 119, and their HD on 129. Sounds perfect for you in Texas. Except that those on the far east coast (the ones for whom the eastern arc is intended, like me) can't see 129 because it's too low on the horizon. (So much so that Dish won't let us have a 1000.2 up here in the north east.) So it looks like I have a choice:
Use a single 1000.2 on the western arc (which Dish won't give me) and get DNS, but give up HD (because I can't see 129)
Use a single 1000.4 on the eastern arc to get HD, but give up DNS.
Use two dishes (one for 110/119, and another for 61.5) to get everything
So I guess you think that east coast people like me shouldn't be allowed to have a single dish solution that gets them both DNS and HD. Dish spent all that money on new eastern arc technology so that the eastern folks can finally have a single dish solution, but you want to specifically exclude many east coast RVers from enjoying the benefits. Thanks. I sure hope you don't set official policy for E*.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

129 is being replaced (early next year) so hold tight. Western Arc will not be bad forever.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

ShapeShifter said:


> OK, so with their 1000.2 the RV owner can get their DNS over 119, their regular stations on 110 and 119, and their HD on 129. Sounds perfect for you in Texas. Except that those on the far east coast (the ones for whom the eastern arc is intended, like me) can't see 129 because it's too low on the horizon. (So much so that Dish won't let us have a 1000.2 up here in the north east.) So it looks like I have a choice:
> Use a single 1000.2 on the western arc (which Dish won't give me) and get DNS, but give up HD (because I can't see 129)
> Use a single 1000.4 on the eastern arc to get HD, but give up DNS.
> Use two dishes (one for 110/119, and another for 61.5) to get everything
> So I guess you think that east coast people like me shouldn't be allowed to have a single dish solution that gets them both DNS and HD. Dish spent all that money on new eastern arc technology so that the eastern folks can finally have a single dish solution, but you want to specifically exclude many east coast RVers from enjoying the benefits. Thanks. I sure hope you don't set official policy for E*.


I would suggest that you use whatever setup you are currently using in the RV. Are you using a two dish setup? If so I would not look for you to change anytime soon. As for 129 we get a new bird early next year so I would wait maybe then you can get the one dish setup you are looking for. I will be really suprised if you see those DNS show up on the eastern arc. Most rv's I have been in have pretty good OTA antenna so maybe that could help you. I just don't see them wasteing a transponder on a bird that services such a small area at this time. Expecially when they already have the channels on a CONUS bird. Not enough customers to justify All American Direct spending another million in lease fees.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

jclewter79 said:


> I would suggest that you use whatever setup you are currently using in the RV. Are you using a two dish setup? If so I would not look for you to change anytime soon.


I'm using a single dish 500, so I get no HD right now. From the looks of it, I should be able to just re-aim that soon so I can get on the eastern arc birds, and I'll have HD. I won't have any DNS, but I don't have that now, so it's not a big deal. It makes no difference to me, but I know there are others out there who are up in the high northeast, and will be affected by this. The concept of finally having a single dish solution in the northeast is exciting. I'm just hoping that they go the last inch and make it fully useful for RVers.



> Not enough customers to justify All American Direct spending another million in lease fees.


And that's the real rub! Yes, it may be a small percentage, but doesn't mean it's a small number of customers. Most RVers I know use D* -- it's generally easier as long as you don't need HD. I just hope E* is realizing the potential situation, and made a concious decision based on their business model, and didn't simply overlook these potential customers.

It makes no difference to me, I don't have an iron in this fire. I just hope E* doesn't wake up one morning and realize that they missed the market.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

ShapeShifter said:


> I just hope E* is realizing the potential situation, and made a concious decision based on their business model, and didn't simply overlook these potential customers.
> 
> It makes no difference to me, I don't have an iron in this fire. I just hope E* doesn't wake up one morning and realize that they missed the market.


DISH Network (E*) does not offer distant networks. They are forbidden from offering distant networks. Please direct your ire toward the company that offers distant networks over a transponder leased on DISH's satellite - National Programming Services dba All American Direct. It is up to them to lease a transponder and sell service to those who are eligible and wish to receive service.

I believe you are overestimating the subscription level of NPS Distants. At the time of disconnection (December 1st, 2006) DISH had 900,000 distants subscribers (per their court filings).

NPS pays a lease fee is $150,000 per month for the transponder on 119°.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

James Long said:


> Please direct your ire toward the company that offers distant networks over a transponder leased on DISH's satellite - National Programming Services dba All American Direct. It is up to them to lease a transponder and sell service to those who are eligible and wish to receive service.


No ire involved on my end, just curiosity. Yes, I understand the business relationship with NPS/AAD, and it was my oversight to only include E* in my previous discussion. Please pretend that all my previous posts say "E* and NPS/AAD" (since E* must be involved at least tangentially to lease the transponder space to NPS/AAD.)



> I believe you are overestimating the subscription level of NPS Distants. At the time of disconnection (December 1st, 2006) DISH had 900,000 distants subscribers (per their court filings).
> 
> NPS pays a lease fee is $150,000 per month for the transponder on 119°.


I hadn't heard those numbers before, and they are interesting. If all of those almost 1 million customers signed up for the new NPS/AAD DNS, that means that the 150k per month works out to a about 17 cents per customer. Even if their current subscription base is 10% of that, the lease fees work out to $1.67 per customer. Considering that they get $5 per month per network per customer, that's a considerable revenue stream. Lets say that they have 100,000 customers (just 11% of the E* customers before the ban) and on average they get just the big three networks: that's $15 million a month on income, which means that the $150 thousand a month in lease fees is only 1% of their income. That sounds like a pretty good profit, even when you take all of the other overhead costs into account.

I can see why NPS/AAD is in business. The numbers may pale in comparison to E* and D*, but there is apparently a good business case out there, and it looks like they have done the research in the past and decided it makes good business sense. I have no idea how many potential eastern arc DNS customers there may be, but hopefully they will do a similar analysis on this new market, and base the decision on informed numbers, and not simply say that the potential mobile customers can stay with the multi-dish solution that they now have.

That's all I was trying to say, although I apparently didn't do a good job at it before.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Add to that they have to pay the networks to retransmit, they have to have the uplink facilities plus all of the manpower/labor to run the place, take orders, customer service, etc., the profit you claim would be much lower.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Well, I know that I for one am a customer that technically had distants before the cutoff and, now I do not. Although my "distants were actually the channels that cover my dma although they are not in my market. My guess is that there were many people like this. Of course, AAD can do what ever they want as far as research but, it won't matter if E* does not want to lease out another transponder.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

HobbyTalk said:


> Add to that they have to pay the networks to retransmit, *they have to have the uplink facilities* plus all of the manpower/labor to run the place, take orders, customer service, etc., the profit you claim would be much lower.


Of course they have additional expenses, and I did allude to additional overhead costs. Still, they must feel that they can make a profit if they are in the business. I hadn't considered the uplink facility, I guess I figured they would lease the uplink from E*.



jclewter79 said:


> Of course, AAD can do what ever they want as far as research but, it won't matter if E* does not want to lease out another transponder.


Very true!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

HobbyTalk said:


> Add to that they have to pay the networks to retransmit, they have to have the uplink facilities plus all of the manpower/labor to run the place, take orders, customer service, etc., the profit you claim would be much lower.


NPS does not have to pay the networks for retransmitting the signals. They pay a copyright fee built into the law that is redistributed to any copyright owners who make a claim but no deal is needed between NPS and any network station they carry and no direct payment is made.

The other overhead costs exist.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

ADD does alright, they sell plenty of other junk, just call them they will try to peddle nine kinds of bullcrap to you.


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## loves2watch (Mar 27, 2006)

MarcusInMD said:


> I have a 622 in the Baltimore Market and receive the HD channel package. The SD channels are still crappy...The HD channels are just so-so too much macro blocking and lack of resolution.


If that is the case then it sounds like you need to have your Dish properly aligned.


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## OldSkoolOpsGuy (Sep 15, 2008)

James Long said:


> DISH has decided to scramble the new channels in a way that requires the new G3 Smartcard.


Does this imply that someone has cracked the CAS2 cards?

Better yet does this mean dish is out of room on those cards?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

We don't discuss hacking on this forum ... so it's irrelevant. 
New cards are coming.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

OldSkoolOpsGuy said:


> Does this imply that someone has cracked the CAS2 cards?
> 
> Better yet does this mean dish is out of room on those cards?


I do beleive the cards have been cracked, I know that in one of the investor talks Charlie has mentioned that they are fighting piracy on two fronts.


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## OldSkoolOpsGuy (Sep 15, 2008)

James Long said:


> We don't discuss hacking on this forum ... so it's irrelevant.
> New cards are coming.


I'm not about to hack a card - it's kinda pointless with how the keys work... curiousity kills though. Looks like it's time for a phone call


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