# Cut-off picture in 1080i 16x9



## michaelHerman (Aug 2, 2006)

There is about 1 inch of both the picture and the menu missing from the top portion of the image. I am connecting using Component Video cables and have adjusted the HDTV settings to 1080i 16x9 aspect ratio. The TV does not cut-off DVDs. Has anyone else experienced a cut-off picture?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Welcome to DBSTalk michaelHerman! :hi:

Sounds to me like you're in Zoom mode - press the * button on the remote until the banner reads "Normal". Does that solve your issue?


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## Miles69 (Dec 24, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk michaelHerman! :hi:
> 
> Sounds to me like you're in Zoom mode - press the * button on the remote until the banner reads "Normal". Does that solve your issue?


 I have been experancing the that problem. Hd net patern show me at about 6% OS and Avia or DVI has me at 3%, as did the callibrater for my set using his fancey equipment. This is an issue that I have heard very little of, but it is there.

Not on all channels or not all the time, IOW I'm not sure.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I do TV production. Let me offer some industry standard practices to the subject matter-

History- Since the beginning TV images were designed to have something called "overscan" where the entire picture width and height were limited to exposure by a mask or TV set frame over the tube. This was done to hide some of the screen image that was there for technical purposes, eg. sync pulses, time code and other stuff unrelated to the program story display. Later, when about the time color TV came on the scene the new NTSC standards began to use increased blanking in the signal to hide some of this data from view yet TV set makers still hid a portion of the screen behind a physical mask. In addition, older sets were quite unstable on the picture geometry display and would drift as they warmed up (old tube technology) As TV sets became better and better, more stable, the display drift lessened but still older sets continued to drift and were still in use. SMPTE (Society of motion Picture & Television Engineers) developed industry accepted standards to follow for TV program procuction. Some of these standards have to do with this masking od the image. (I won't bore some with specification numbers here)

SMPTE standard- 10% of the outside of the screen is to never contain static graphics as part of the program content for visible display. 5% of the outside area of the screen is to never contain motion graphics as part of the visible display image. This standard is not considered regulation but an industry standard that will help TV producers insure their content remains visible in spite of the majority of TV sets with calibration errors and a varied degree of overscan and physical masking. SMPTE standard does not forbid graphics placement in the overscan area, but, a Producer cannot hold content distributors responsible for it if the content is masked on some sets. 

OK so now we have the history and some SMPTE procedure.

Today, especially with projection screens and digital displays plus digital ATSC pixel based TV the concept of physical masking is a much outdated requirement. It is still used for Tube CRT's but with digital displays has to be created artificially in the circuits with an electronic adjustment for "overscan" I don't work in the TV set manufacturering or am I an ISF trained standards professor like some may be here. But I know that there IS propably a standard for the overscan, even in these new projection monitors. I would guess that ISF is the best place to look for this. But to the contrary of any standard, I have observed others and I include myself in this group who have front projection screens who try to display as large a program image area as possible, with disregard to the old SMPTE standard of 5% for motion graphics that is expected to be hidden behind the curtain so to speak. Often, because I do have my screen calibrated this way I will see the common dashed lines of VITC (vertical Interval Time code) and closed Caption code visibly display at the screen top. VITC is typically on line 22-26 generally 2 lines selected separated by a blank line (whoops, sorry, I promised not to get unnecessarily technical here) of an NTSC broadcast and would normally be well masked by the SMPTE standard. On mine it is not masked because I have calibrated it that way. Then, I physically mask the screen with a valence and bottom curtain mask. 
As a TV producer, I could take the time to precisely calibrate my stationary graphics and blanking of the image to well beyond the SMPTE standards to facilitate people who are "unmasking" their safe zone in the picture area, but I am not required to do that. By not doing that certain parts of the program may become visible such as under layers of video that appear in the edited content. I don't want to get into the tech side of how a video is built i the edit room but it often uses 2 or more layers stacked up and some of these layers may be of different widths and heights and if an under layer is larger than a top layer it can become visible in the overscan area. As an editor, I try to maintain more than the SMPTE safe of 5%. I strive for 2% because I know some large screen viewers may see parts of my program I don't intend to be visible. I assume that most of the viewers are viewing on a screen that uses the SMPTE 5% and by striving for 2% I hope to achieve the look and feel of the program while protecting certain elements not intended to be seen in the overscan area.

All this doesn't mean that YOU viewers can't see this stuff the TV producers intend to hide. If you choose to watch a program that displays all the "raster" of the program technical in addition to what the program's story content is there is nothing we can do about that. You could be watching a program on a broadcast monitor which displays all the signal content in underscan mode. 

So, where all this leads to is that you need to understand that test signals are meant to be used to test your screen calibration. They should be used to calibrate the picture you see for entertainment not the technical signal that is sent. Look at your screwen this way- If you go to the theater and watch a play, they use curtains that hides the actor's preparation for the next scene. By calibrating your screen for 0% overscan, is like going to the play in the theater where that program is in the center of the stage and the actors doing costume changes and stage hands workingf to prepare for the next scene are not back stage but on stage and seen along the sides of the stage by the audience. 

The example I used earlier with VITC being visible is only a defect in my screen calibration, not a defect in the program content. Some things are just meant to be left behind the curtains. How much? I gave you the answer already, it's 5%.

So what does 5% mean- on a screen that is 50 inches width, you would lose (or zoom the image) so that 2.5" on the left side and 2.5" on the right is lossed "behind the mask" or overscaned on the digital display. This is the standard. And, as I said ISF may differ in their standards but 5% is what I expect the millions of TV sets to be calibrated for when I build a TV show. I would guess that ISF would match the broadcast standard set by SMPTE long before ISF was in existence.


Real world problem- I build a motion graphic with hard content- a text traveler on the bottom of the screen. It is in the area bounded by the standard SMPTE between 5 and 10% because it is motion graphics. A TV set in the Hotel is used top preview the show and that set is out of calibration and thr picture is off that maskes half the bottom of the screen that should be visible by SMPTE covered over by the TV sets box. In the real world, people have to understand that as long as the signal meets regulation and standards we have done our job.

Second real world problem- We broadcast a TV show with VITC in the signal. It is visible on our underscan broadcast monitors so we can verify it precence. A home viewer calls from his $100K "calibrated" home theater and complains we have garbage on the top of the picture. We try to explain that is CC and VITC he may be seeing and he argues that he paid a fortune for his Home theater and the image is perfect. Fact is, he is using a program display in instrument monitor mode, not program display mode. Essentially, no matter how much he paid for his fancy home theater, it is not calibrated to standards used for program broadcast.

Everyone needs to understand that these standards and practices have been put in place to insure a happy viewing experience. If you adjust your picture area to be perfect it should overscan the screen by the SMPTE standard! This is "perfect" To scan the image to within 0% is out of calibration. Sorry, but no matter what you heard before, overscan of the image for display is expected and is used just like the curtains on a stage.


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## michaelHerman (Aug 2, 2006)

The rear projection TV is older than the DVI interface and so I must use Component Video cables. Half the word 'LIVE' is cut-off on the top-left of CNN channel (to give an idea of the amount being cut-off). In addition, the VIP622 on-screen wording is cut-off on the top as well. If I modify the HD TV settings on the VIP622 to 480i, the top is not cut-off. Do you think the problem lies in the VIP622 or the TV or is it just a compatibility (mapping) issue?

By the way...Very interesting read on Industry standards. I'm wondering if I need to call the TV repairman in to calibrate the TV.

I'm viewing in normal, not zoom. In addition, the TV doesn't zoom when component video cables are used.

Dish Network Tech support blames Toshiba (the TV maker). Toshiba blames Dish Network.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Can you take a picture of what you're seeing, especially with a 622 menu being cut off and either post it here or email it to me? My email address is in my signature. This is starting to sound very strange, so I'd like to see what you're seeing before going any further.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

After looking at the pictures, it looks to me like the television is at fault here, and could be corrected by a tech adjusting the set's geometry.


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## michaelHerman (Aug 2, 2006)

Thanks for your help Mark. I'll call Toshiba to recommend a repair person to adjust the TV's geometry.


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## rkklinke (Feb 25, 2005)

I have the same problem with both of my 622's on different Plasmas. It was never a problem with the 822 on the one Plasma or the 522 on the other Plasma. I really only notice it when the guide is showing. The bottom 30 to 40 percent of the last guide bar is missing. I can still usually figure out what is on and don't have an real issue with it, but I just wanted to note that this is not an isolated incident. It only happens with the 622's in my case.


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## BirdMan1! (Jun 8, 2006)

michaelHerman said:


> There is about 1 inch of both the picture and the menu missing from the top portion of the image. I am connecting using Component Video cables and have adjusted the HDTV settings to 1080i 16x9 aspect ratio. The TV does not cut-off DVDs. Has anyone else experienced a cut-off picture?


What typ eof TV?


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## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

I also have a Toshiba (57H81 - no HDMI) projection TV, bought in 2002, and bought a 4 yr warranty with it. I also have seen the overscan so called Bestbuy for the "repair" as the warranty runs out in 2 weeks.

Soon after I bought the set, the same repair folkd were out and showed me how to get into the service screen so that I could do a detailed adjustment of the convergence. It has worked well so periodically I do a convergence setup. The convergence that you can do is far more detailed than the one that the set can do from the front cabinet. He also was able to adjust the picture position as well as alter the amount of picture stretch.

At his next visit (later this week) I plan to try and convince him to tell me how to make the rest of the adjustments - after all, it will be out of warranty shortly.

Anyone wanting the button sequence to get in to the detailed convergence screen on this series of TV - just ask I will provide - no guarantees of the results however.


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## offline (Feb 14, 2004)

I have a Pioneer Elite PRO, 57 inch, Rear Projection unit and have the same problem with the cutoff in 1080i mode with the 622.

I was told by E* technicians months ago that they were aware of the problem and would eventually fix it.

My guess is that it's not a high-priority issue for them.

How do we light the fire?

 

Mark


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## HD921 (May 1, 2004)

TonyB said:


> I also have a Toshiba (57H81 - no HDMI) projection TV, bought in 2002, and bought a 4 yr warranty with it. I also have seen the overscan so called Bestbuy for the "repair" as the warranty runs out in 2 weeks.
> 
> Soon after I bought the set, the same repair folkd were out and showed me how to get into the service screen so that I could do a detailed adjustment of the convergence. It has worked well so periodically I do a convergence setup. The convergence that you can do is far more detailed than the one that the set can do from the front cabinet. He also was able to adjust the picture position as well as alter the amount of picture stretch.
> 
> ...


Good you send me the sequence? Thanks, Kelly


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## bobrap (Dec 17, 2005)

I don't know if this is the right place for this, if not, please move. The only cutoff I am seeing is the the bottom of the EPG. I can only see half of that program info. Normal?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

bob... 

Try changing the type EPG Display to a lower setting. I also get this when I use the highest setting. I would start with Normal and see how that goes. 

(Sorry not infront of my TV so I can't provide the steps).. Hopefully this makes some sense.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Don,
Thanks for the long explanation. I knew most of this (in general), but it's a good refresher.

My E* 34" TV cuts off 1/2 of the last line of the EPG. I believe E* is trying to use space well into the overscan area.

I've adjusted it somewhat with the service menus, but in 1080i the low-budget set only provides vertical amplitude -> no vertical position. If I make it too small, the top will not fill the screen. In other modes (480i/p there is vertical amplitude & position).

And Don, yes. The geometry on this tube is terrible on the sides. Perhaps ISF can do better, but I can never get it straight. Gotta let it overscan somewhat.

Love my DLP projector, don't normally have any of these problems (though I suppose I do now since my 622 HDMI crapped out).


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## offline (Feb 14, 2004)

My set was ISF adjusted and I have the problem at the 1080i setting. At 640p, it's fine.
It was also fine when I used the 6000U.

Feel free to tinker with your sets if you must, but I believe the problem stems from the software in the 622.

Of course - I could be wrong. And your milage may vary.

Mark


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## wwfmike (Jul 17, 2006)

I have the output from TV1 going into my HDTV and a 7" headrest monitor in my bedroom next to my pc and the 7" monitor doesnt cut anything off, while my tv does.


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## michaelHerman (Aug 2, 2006)

Tony,

Thanks for the instructions to get into the service menu. The convergence adjustments work great.

Do you know the codes to adjust VPOS, WID, LIN and HCP? I think I would be setting LIN because the picture is cutting off on the top.

This part actually might be worth calling Toshiba repair if there is a possibility of warping lines.


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

When using the program guide with the smallest font setting, yes, the receiver draws the last line of the guide part way into the overscan area at the bottom of the TV (at least when using 1080i, 16x9). Although the amount of overscan differs by TV, this is definitely a receiver software problem. Dish could always fix this by changing the layout slightly, or by moving the image up ever-so-slightly.


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## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

michaelHerman said:


> Tony,
> 
> Thanks for the instructions to get into the service menu. The convergence adjustments work great.
> 
> ...


I think you just use the channel up/down button on the Toshiba remote.

Be careful. Some of the selections when you do this make the picture look weird.

Tony


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## EC1 (Aug 24, 2006)

I have the same problem of the cut-off picture on my Pioneer Elite rear projection set (not sure of the model but it is probably 3 years old and is pre-HDMI. I run all video through my Pioneer Elite reciever. Again don't know the model number but was bought at the same time and again is pre-HDMI. (I know, lucky me.)

Video is cut off at the top when using Dish HD-DVR (the newest one) and when using XBox 360 in 1080i MODE. When in 480i mode (?) on the XBox 360 the picture is fine. DVD is fine.

The problem is particularily annoying when playing a game in 1080i as some of the game messages cannot be seen. (Oblivion, for instance.)

Since the problem occurs with multiple video sources, I'm guessing it is caused by either the TV or running the video through the reciever. And between the two, I'd guess the TV ( or perhaps what is causing the TV to clip the image is also built into the reciever, both being of the same vintage.)

Anyway, I'd love to hear if anyone has a fix. It's a shame to spend all that $$ and still have to deal with this problem.

Thanks,

EC


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

EC1 said:


> I have the same problem of the cut-off picture on my Pioneer Elite rear projection set (not sure of the model but it is probably 3 years old and is pre-HDMI. I run all video through my Pioneer Elite reciever. Again don't know the model number but was bought at the same time and again is pre-HDMI. (I know, lucky me.)
> 
> Video is cut off at the top when using Dish HD-DVR (the newest one) and when using XBox 360 in 1080i MODE. When in 480i mode (?) on the XBox 360 the picture is fine. DVD is fine.
> 
> ...


many sets have seperate adjustments for 1080i overscan. It is probably not the Dish receiver given that you are using HDMI.


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## Lyle_JP (Apr 22, 2002)

I had bad HD overscan when I first installed the 622 on my 65" 2001 model Mitsubishi Diamond set. After going into the service menus, I realized that adjusting to 5% overscan on all sides pushes the set nearly to its limits, and makes convergence in the extreme corners a near impossiblity.

Clearly the 622 introduces more overscan into the picture, since I can move the video completely off the screen on one side, and the revealed overscan pattern broadcast by HDNet seems only to go out to between 2 and 3. Part of the pattern being cut off seems to indicate to me that the 622 adds an additional 2-3% overscan to whatever HD overscan your set may have had out of the box.

Those of you with fixed-pixel sets (DLP, LCD, LCoS) may have better luck, as I believe those sets are easier to adjust for overscan.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Keep in mind that unless HDNet has fixed their overscan graphic, it's still broken and doesn't give you an accurate view of what's happening with your overscan. DonLandis wrote an excellent post a couple of years ago in the 921 forum (I believe) about this.


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