# External 622 external USB Drive Support Pictures from CES floor



## Ron Barry

Some Pictures of the External USB Drive support from Richard King.

* New Updated Pictures showing more screens from external USB Support*


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## bobukcat

On the thumbnail it shows something like 2 hrs of transfer time remaining and it appears that message stays on the screen the whole time. I can only HOPE that there was a ridiculous amount of programming selected to transfer!!


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## Beer Kahuna

bobukcat said:


> On the thumbnail it shows something like 2 hrs of transfer time remaining and it appears that message stays on the screen the whole time. I can only HOPE that there was a ridiculous amount of programming selected to transfer!!


It looks to me that you can hit the "View TV" button to go back to watching TV while it's transferring. Also, it appears this is an external drive that they will be selling if I'm reading the card on the right correctly.


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## James Long

E* will be selling a drive, but one can also connect their own USB drive.


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## Ron Barry

For the people with poor eyes... 

The bullets on the info card read from what I can tell.

1) Build your own, limitless video library. 
2) External Hard drive expands Vip622 DVR recording capability.
3) High-definition and standard entertainment programming for later viewing. 
4) Unlimited Storage Space.


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## montge

So when will this autually work? Will it work with existing 622's, or do you need one of the VC-1 based ones?


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## Ron Barry

I would expect it to work with existing ones.... As to when.. Well in the conference there was some mention of it mid-year which would be a push back from Q1 that we heard in a recent Charlie Chat.


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## joebird

I love their inconsistency. On their slide (another post) about Portable Media Recorders and Video To Go, they have a bullet that says "No additional fees -- it's your content!".

However, I understand there will be an external USB drive "enabling fee" for this feature when it's available. Isn't it still "our content" (and our USB drives, too)?


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## James Long

I believe they are concerned with "training" customers on how to use the feature.

The few minutes you spend with the CSR getting it activated plus the later calls back if you don't understand what you are doing cost them money. It isn't a free feature. At least it isn't (reportedly) a recurring fee.


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## tcooper185

James Long said:


> E* will be selling a drive, but one can also connect their own USB drive.


I'm pretty certain that's a Western Digital external drive, like the older Dual-Option external drives. The blue button looks just like those...
PDF link


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## AVITWeb

bobukcat said:


> On the thumbnail it shows something like 2 hrs of transfer time remaining and it appears that message stays on the screen the whole time. I can only HOPE that there was a ridiculous amount of programming selected to transfer!!


If you look at the one screen, it does show 1 of 25 items...and at least one of them is 2:30 hours....even still...its worth it!

Actually I take that back...in the one photo, nothing is selected....


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## brettbolt

USB 2.0 has a maximum raw transfer rate of 480 Mbps, or 60 MBps. However, in practice I've read that it is more like 40 MBps.

So if it takes 1 hour and 55 minutes at 40 MBps, then it would work out to be a total transfer size of 276 GB.

But the destination drive does not have that much space, only 207 GB, so the transfer rate must be less than 30 MBps if it takes 1:55.

So the best case scenario is 30 MBps. If they are not all HD shows being transferred (like the first one in their list), then the transfer rate could be as low as 10 to 20 MBps.


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## bobukcat

James Long said:


> I believe they are concerned with "training" customers on how to use the feature.
> 
> The few minutes you spend with the CSR getting it activated plus the later calls back if you don't understand what you are doing cost them money. It isn't a free feature. At least it isn't (reportedly) a recurring fee.


:nono:

James, I understand your point but what percentage of the users will actually have to be trained??? The fact is that their DBS competition already has this feature available on their much newer HD DVR and a lot of us are getting sick of all the nickel - dime fees addiing up (DVR per receiver, lease fee for 622s even if the only reciever, etc. etc.) so another fee for external USB usage is simply gouging IMO. Personally the only time I need CSR help is when Dish has screwed something up or equipment has failed, and I would guess a large percentage of HD DVR customers are the same as me - tech savvy - in fact most times we know more than the CSRs!!


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## Richard King

In the conference Charlie mentioned that you could use anybody's external drive. Basically a bring your own drive situation.


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## Zero327

bobukcat said:


> :nono:
> 
> James, I understand your point but what percentage of the users will actually have to be trained??? The fact is that their DBS competition already has this feature available on their much newer HD DVR and a lot of us are getting sick of all the nickel - dime fees addiing up (DVR per receiver, lease fee for 622s even if the only reciever, etc. etc.) so another fee for external USB usage is simply gouging IMO. Personally the only time I need CSR help is when Dish has screwed something up or equipment has failed, and I would guess a large percentage of HD DVR customers are the same as me - tech savvy - in fact most times we know more than the CSRs!!


So you'd rather take your chances with a HR20? You're braver than I. Nice picture btw.


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## bobukcat

Zero327 said:


> So you'd rather take your chances with a HR20? You're braver than I. Nice picture btw.


Go back and look at the problems many of us have been through with 921s and even the 622, we know all about buggy receivers so the HR20 may feel just like the old days - besides you have to figure they'll get it stable soon (there is already a lot of D* HR20 users with no problems). In spite of all of that, I didn't say I want to leave, but I am getting sick of the BS extra fees E* keeps hitting me with. I've been an E* sub for 8 years and an HD sub for 3+, but enough is enough - providing external USB support will cost them no more than the cost of s/w development and a little support time, but their main competition already has this feature enabled, and competition is what it's all about in America!!


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## Stewart Vernon

A lot of people don't know their ViP receiver is set to 480p by default and not 720p or 1080i... other people can't grasp the HD vs SD time remaining counter on their receiver, and we see thread after thread of folks explaining that one too.

Keep in mind we at the forum are in the minority... Dish has many many more customers than we will ever see on this site... so there is no way to accurately extrapolate experiences here vs Dish entire subscriber base.

That said... I am pretty sure that if someone goes and buys an off-the-shelf USB external drive, plugs it in, and has a problem... most folks will call Dish and expect them to help them out. Some will even get mad that it didn't work, citing how they heard/read that "any drive will work" or quoting Charlie by saying "Charlie said it at CES"... and you just know we will see threads about it here discussing how someone bought such-and-such USB drive and can't get it to work because "Dish is incompetent".

So... while I don't like the idea of more fees... I completely understand Dish wanting something for the feature, knowing they will have to support it through free online/phone call service for a bunch of people who simply cannot handle it by themselves.

I'm just hoping it is the one-time fee, and it is low enough to not be a big bite out of my wallet... but I am looking forward to having the ability to walk into my local Best Buy and grap a cheap external drive and be able to archive and keep some stuff in HD and free up some space on my ViP... also the future flexibility to be able to take that external drive to another room in my house and connect to another Dish receiver and play content there will be a cool thing too.


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## BobaBird

Many months ago we were hearing that at initial roll-out, the external HDD would be "married" to an individual 622 and that a future upgrade would allow it to be used with any capable receiver on your account. Is that still the case or will we get the desired functionality at release?


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## Calvin Carrigan

I jusy got my 622 in November. Can't I already do this with the front USB port?


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## ChuckA

No. Currently you can only use the USB port to copy pictures from a camera for a slide show or you can copy SD recordings to a PocketDish. Copying to an external hard drive is not yet supported.


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## churoval

bobukcat said:


> On the thumbnail it shows something like 2 hrs of transfer time remaining and it appears that message stays on the screen the whole time. I can only HOPE that there was a ridiculous amount of programming selected to transfer!!


It looks like the same message that it puts up when transferring to a pocketdish. When using a pocketdish, it lets you hit "View TV" while it's transferring and transfers in the background. It then gives another popup message to tell you it's done.


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## Richard King

BobaBird said:


> Many months ago we were hearing that at initial roll-out, the external HDD would be "married" to an individual 622 and that a future upgrade would allow it to be used with any capable receiver on your account. Is that still the case or will we get the desired functionality at release?


Initially it will only work with the unit it was originally linked to. A future feature will allow for the hard drive to be portable and work on any compatable receiver on the account.


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## voripteth

These pictures show the "archive" functionality. Can we watch recordings directly from the USB drive? Can we record directly to the USB drive?


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## David_Levin

I like to 2x Dish's estimates of hardware release dates.

So, if they are saying mid-year it pushes out to CES 2008. Sheesh, this is the same demo we saw last year.


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## joebird

No kidding. What they have announced is:

DishOnline (already known/rumored -- still not available and it will probably cost me more $)
Largest installed based of iTV (current DishHome that's mostly useless)
External USB drive support (already expected/announced, maybe in June, with a fee)
Still no HD RSNs (though announced as 'soon' months ago)
They sponsor a Nascar vehicle
Free DVRs after we all paid for the privalege to lease them
Slingbox support (nothing new, already available)
Same channels, new package names, and Charlie got the price wrong

Anything I missed? Oh yeah, HomePlug.


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## William

"Dish external hard drive It's about time" Is that supposed to be a cruel joke? :eek2: 6 months from now is WAY past "about" time.:nono2:


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## Ron Barry

William said:


> "Dish external hard drive It's about time" Is that supposed to be a cruel joke? :eek2: 6 months from now is WAY past "about" time.:nono2:


Marketing always has a way to spin things.. Funny thing to us that statement means something totally different than it intention I am sure.


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## Ron Barry

joebird said:


> Anything I missed? Oh yeah, HomePlug.


Homeplug I believe is what DishComm is about. As for the release date for external USB Drive support.... I never give dates spoken in conferences much weight. They always seem off one way or the other.

Time will tell. Hopefully we will see this feature before June and I sure hope it does not go out to CES 2008.


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## The Lidless Eye

William said:


> "Dish external hard drive It's about time" Is that supposed to be a cruel joke? :eek2: 6 months from now is WAY past "about" time.:nono2:


"...to delay it again."


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## Mark Lamutt

voripteth said:


> These pictures show the "archive" functionality. Can we watch recordings directly from the USB drive? Can we record directly to the USB drive?


(Subject to change...)

Yes, No.

Don't expect anywhere near 30 MB/s transfer rate - the 622 won't be able to transfer anywhere near that fast, considering that it also has to be able to deal with up to 5 other separate HD streams through the system (3 recording, 2 others watching in Dual mode). Transferring to an external drive on top of that will tax the system to the limit.


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## The Lidless Eye

Well, it HAS to support at least ~15Mb/s to even play off the external drive, right?


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## fishhead65

James Long said:


> E* will be selling a drive, but one can also connect their own USB drive.


So an existing 622 owner can pay to activate his USB port and use any USB drive? Is there any advantage in using a DISH dive vs say a Western Digital?


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## James Long

Ron Barry said:


> Homeplug I believe is what DishComm is about.


I think we both need to take another look at that slide. I was thinking DishComm too until I saw the slide again.

Homeplug shows a receiver plugged into the wall and in another location a wall box plugged into a network router. DishComm is a phone line extender, not networking.

It looks like Homeplug is slinging a network for DishONLINE, not a phone line for reporting in. (And yes, the pun is intended. Sling media offers power line based extenders for networking so one can place their Slingbox away from network access.)


fishhead65 said:


> So an existing 622 owner can pay to activate his USB port and use any USB drive? Is there any advantage in using a DISH dive vs say a Western Digital?


Hard to say not knowing what the Dish drive is and what warrantee the devices come with. One thing about buying a Dish labeled drive is that E* will know the drive if you have any problems. The mystery of "will drive X work on the 622" is gone.


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## Ron Barry

James Long said:


> I think we both need to take another look at that slide. I was thinking DishComm too until I saw the slide again.
> 
> Homeplug shows a receiver plugged into the wall and in another location a wall box plugged into a network router. DishComm is a phone line extender, not networking.
> 
> It looks like Homeplug is slinging a network for DishONLINE, not a phone line for reporting in. (And yes, the pun is intended. Sling media offers power line based extenders for networking so one can place their Slingbox away from network access.


Yeah.. I do need to take another look at it. after Jason pointed out that slide it hit me. Going to have to go through the slides again. Obviously different things.


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## TheGrove

Mark Lamutt said:


> (Subject to change...)
> 
> Yes, No.
> 
> And, if you look closely at the picture, that 1:55 transfer time is probably to transfer that one hour HD recording of 6123 MB. Don't expect anywhere near 30 MB/s transfer rate - the 622 won't be able to transfer anywhere near that fast, considering that it also has to be able to deal with up to 5 other separate HD streams through the system (3 recording, 2 others watching in Dual mode). Transferring to an external drive on top of that will tax the system to the limit.


If it is anything like the TiVo's I have they give a much higher priority to recording and playback. Transfers are at the bottom of the priority list.


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## Richard King

Homeplug is built into the satellite box and is active when the box is plugged into the wall (if you have the HomePlug "transmitter".


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## harsh

bobukcat said:


> ...but their main competition already has this feature enabled, and competition is what it's all about in America!!


And they've made it very clear that all support questions regarding eSATA will be ignored.

If they deny support (including basic information about what it takes to make it work), is it really a feature? It seems to me that they've had some success in an experiment to see how many users will run out and buy a $1,000+ drive subsystem without knowing whether or not it will work with an $800 DVR.


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## Richard King

William said:


> "Dish external hard drive It's about time" Is that supposed to be a cruel joke? :eek2: 6 months from now is WAY past "about" time.:nono2:


When I first saw this I thought, UH OH, what are they THINKING? :lol:


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## Hall

Mark Lamutt said:


> And, if you look closely at the picture, that 1:55 transfer time is probably to transfer that one hour HD recording of 6123 MB. Don't expect anywhere near 30 MB/s transfer rate - the 622 won't be able to transfer anywhere near that fast, considering that it also has to be able to deal with up to 5 other separate HD streams through the system (3 recording, 2 others watching in Dual mode). Transferring to an external drive on top of that will tax the system to the limit.


 How is that time estimated ?? Is it a real-time estimate, i.e. calculated on-the-fly based on what's being recorded at the moment, what's playing back, and so on ?? Or, is it simply a calculated number based on USB 2.0 speeds and the size of the file(s) ??


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## James Long

*Name based recording on the 501 ... it's about time.*

Man, this is going to be a fun year!

Kudos to DirecTV for corrupting the last E* slogan (Better TV for all) by using _Good TV, Better TV, DirecTV_. But this one seems to mock itself.


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## mark069

Will the programs recorded onto the external hard drive be readable by a computer or will they be encryted?


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## Ron Barry

:welcome_s mark069. 

Based on all information provided so far and given the statements made, I am sure they will be encrypted.


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## William

mark069 said:


> Will the programs recorded onto the external hard drive be readable by a computer or will they be encryted?


Of course they will be encrypted and as tied to the receiver that they were archived from.


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## William

Hall said:


> How is that time estimated ?? Is it a real-time estimate, i.e. calculated on-the-fly based on what's being recorded at the moment, what's playing back, and so on ?? Or, is it simply a calculated number based on USB 2.0 speeds and the size of the file(s) ??


Have you ever copied a large file across a network or downloaded a file? You get a rough estimate of the time remaining. I'm sure this is what the 622 is doing.


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## James Long

If they were smart they would estimate based on the transfer so far. I've had a few downloads on my PC that started slow and said hours and quickly changed to minutes once a few packets flew.


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## mark069

Ron Barry said:


> :welcome_s mark069.
> 
> Based on all information provided so far and given the statements made, I am sure they will be encrypted.


I figured - is DISH required to do this because of copywrite? If not, would it be illegal for me to "unencrypt" the file on my PC if I were only using the content for personal use?


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## jgriffin

Maybe sooner, maybe later. Hopefully the 6 month timeframeworks out.

My concern is with potential fees. How many fees can Dish tack on to your bill? Anyone remember the major national bank commercial a few years back? Something like "press one for your account balance (a fee will be applied)," or "press two to transfer funds (a fee will be applied)," - "if you'd like to disconnect from our automated system, press three (a fee will be applied)."

I think Dish saw this and took it literally. Maybe they could start charging monthly by the foot of coax installed - you know, something like "it costs more to deliver the signal to your receiver over a 100' length of RG-6 than a 50' length."


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## bobukcat

jgriffin said:


> Maybe sooner, maybe later. Hopefully the 6 month timeframeworks out.
> 
> My concern is with potential fees. How many fees can Dish tack on to your bill? Anyone remember the major national bank commercial a few years back? Something like "press one for your account balance (a fee will be applied)," or "press two to transfer funds (a fee will be applied)," - "if you'd like to disconnect from our automated system, press three (a fee will be applied)."
> 
> I think Dish saw this and took it literally. Maybe they could start charging monthly by the foot of coax installed - you know, something like "it costs more to deliver the signal to your receiver over a 100' length of RG-6 than a 50' length."


Hey, don't give them any ideas - they are doing just fine by themselves! Honestly I agree with you and I'm not one to continually complain about fees, but with regards to the USB Drive support they need to realize their DBS competition already has this feature for free!


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## Mark Lamutt

I've edited my post above slightly. Transfer speed will probably be around 8-10GB per hour to the external drive, whatever transfer rate that ends up being. 

The external drive won't be readable by a PC running windows. I don't know about one running linux.


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## koralis

mark069 said:


> I figured - is DISH required to do this because of copywrite? If not, would it be illegal for me to "unencrypt" the file on my PC if I were only using the content for personal use?


It depends on whether the DMCA is ultimately ruled to be illegally infringing on your rights to maintain backups for yourself. On the face of it, assume that DMCA *IS* legit, so it'd be illegal for you to break their copy protection scheme.

I believe that ultimately, Dish would like to allow players that tie into your Dish ID so that you can move the content to your computer, cell phone, pda, pocketdish, etc. I don't think that they have the pieces in play yet to the extent that their content providers are happy.

Eventually it will probably happen. It won't be anytime soon.


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## dbconsultant

bobukcat said:


> Hey, don't give them any ideas - they are doing just fine by themselves! Honestly I agree with you and I'm not one to continually complain about fees, but with regards to the USB Drive support they need to realize their DBS competition already has this feature for free!


You guys read my mind - "If you need to speak to a human, give us $9" - that was the line given by the bank I used to bank with (key words, "used to"). If you needed to talk to a person, whether by phone or by walking into the branch, they would zap your "free account" for $9!

The majority of us could probably figure out how to plug in to the usb (or have our grandkids show us :lol: ) and they will probably put something informational out on one of their help channels like they have for the remote. They didn't charge us for plugging in the pocket dish, why charge us for plugging in an external storage device?


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## James Long

Technically, they charged you when they sold you the PocketDish.


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## dmspen

So here's my understanding...
We can hook up an external hard drive (does this include a PC?)
We can transfer to and from the drive but can't watch from the drive (?)
PocketDish is free to put programs on - so will the DishDrive (probably). Bring your own and there may be a fee (absurd)

Can you transfer to another DISH box? (like TIVO)


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## koralis

If there's a charge for having extra storage, then I won't be using it and dish has one less piece of equipment and recorded materials that tie me to their service.

If they're smart, they don't charge for this feature and allow people to build up huge stockpiles of recorded content that they can only view so long as they remain dish customers.


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## dbconsultant

James Long said:


> Technically, they charged you when they sold you the PocketDish.


And I would expect to pay them if I purchased a new piece of equipment from them, such as the DishDrive or the PocketDish, but if I BMOD (bring my own drive), I wouldn't expect to be charged to utilize the usb port that already exists on the 622. Especially if they present it as "You're subsidizing the support we will be providing to people who will be calling". That's really poor marketing.

I equate using the usb port for external storage to using the usb port to upload digital pictures - and they didn't charge me for using my own camera. Just my opinion, of course.


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## Ron Barry

Well I have not seen any particulars as to what and if a fee will be charged. There has been some mention of a fee, but it sounded to me that the fee would be of the nature of a one time enabling fee. 

One question that I would have then is if the USB Drives will initially be tied to a particular 622 will people with multiple 622s incur multiple fees or one fee per account. 

I sure hope it is not a monthly fee, that definitely would not seem reasonable then again I think a per DVR monthly fee is not reasonable but given all things equal I am willing to pay for it for the additional benefits that having multiple DVRs provide me. 

As to the external storage vs. digital camera comparision. I don't see it as similar. One feature is for storage expandability and the other is for providing a input interface to upload personal files. To different user end purposes, but while I would not be too happy with a one time fee I am sure I would pay it if I felt it was reasonable and that I would use the feature. If it is a monthly fee, I personally would not use this feature.


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## Mike D-CO5

I am sure it will be a monthly fee. This is DIsh we are talking about. They have added fees consistently year after year. This is another "small enabeling fee" just like the one that they will be charging for the dish online feature as well. Both features I will pass if there is a monthly fee on these features.


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## Cokeswigga

I was wondering if we would be able to use multiple USB Drives?
Say I want all my TV shows on one drive and all my Movies on another... etc


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## Ron Barry

Well based on the bullets

1) Build your own, limitless video library.
2) External Hard drive expands Vip622 DVR recording capability.
3) High-definition and standard entertainment programming for later viewing.
4) Unlimited Storage Space.

I would expect that you could use multiple USB drives on a particular 622 but I would be surprised if you could use multiple USB drives at one time given the pictures.


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## harsh

dmspen said:


> We can hook up an external hard drive (does this include a PC?)


You can connect a USB hard drive. PCs don't qualify as USB hard drives.


> We can transfer to and from the drive but can't watch from the drive (?)


At least originally, this may be true. I could have sworn that someone indicated that it has played direct from the USB drive in testing.


> Can you transfer to another DISH box? (like TIVO)


No. Not even the new TiVo can transfer to another TiVo. It will take a serious change in attitude at the content production houses before this is allowed with HD machines.


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## Ron Barry

If you look at this picture.. It shows a play button so I would assume you can play from the external drives. At least in this cut of software, but remember the software shown might not be what we eventually see.

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7078&d=1168390435


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## FTA Michael

There's also the chance that Dish is managing expectations (for a change?).

That is, if they say that they won't charge any kind of fee for it, but they later decide to add a one-time $5 because-you-talked-to-a-CSR fee, some folks would complain that Dish was refusing to honor its promises. This way, they're covered, and if they should decide they'll be better off not charging for it, some folks might feel grateful that Dish works so hard to help its customers.


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## joebird

koralis said:


> If they're smart, they don't charge for this feature and allow people to build up huge stockpiles of recorded content that they can only view so long as they remain dish customers.


Exactly.

Also, regarding the ability to take an external drive and connect it to another 622 -- that's sneakernet. I'd rather use the built-in ethernet for that & make it seamless.


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## Ron Barry

I agree Joe, but I think both feature have value.. I would like to see the ability to allow one to share content or copy content between DVRs within a household. I would place that in my top 5 for sure.


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## joebird

I might consider a fee for the ability to network two boxes together and share content. Part of why Tivo charges a fee. Then again, Dish already charges a DVR fee. Maybe they jack it up a bit for those who want this feature?

As for the external drive fee -- I think they shoot themselves in the foot with this. I'm picturing a $99/box type fee (pure speculation -- but I doubt any one-time feel will be in the $10/$20 price range) and I think that's a bit out of whack. 

They already need to develop all of the transfer software for the pocketdish. Maybe those aren't selling well enough to justify development costs, so they figure they'll get the money back with external hard drive support fees.


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## James Long

joebird said:


> Also, regarding the ability to take an external drive and connect it to another 622 -- that's sneakernet. I'd rather use the built-in ethernet for that & make it seamless.


I'd like to pull the HD off of my 622 and play it back on my 211. Sneakernet acceptable (although if they shared files via ether I'd accept that).


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## ISG

guys;

Am I seeing double? I see one (drive?) laying horizontally and another Maxtor
siting vertically.

ISG


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## dbconsultant

Ron Barry said:


> As to the external storage vs. digital camera comparision. I don't see it as similar. One feature is for storage expandability and the other is for providing a input interface to upload personal files. To different user end purposes, but while I would not be too happy with a one time fee I am sure I would pay it if I felt it was reasonable and that I would use the feature. If it is a monthly fee, I personally would not use this feature.


My point with the comparison is that the usb port is simply an interface, regardless of whether you are uploading or downloading, that came with the 622. If Dish is going to start charging us whenever they enable some new feature on the 622, we're all in big trouble. That was why I used the comparison.


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## James Long

There is develpoment involved in introducing the new feature. That costs money.

No one promised you (or should have promised you) external storage when you leased the unit. Consider it a new feature available through software download instead of needing to trade out your receiver.

Some things are free, some are cheap. I would love to see E* announce that this feature addition would be free or cheap. If they do please appreciate it! Don't just take it for granted when E* spends months (if not years) getting something to work for you. 

Even the "view pictures on your TV" option is something I could live without. My camera came with a video cable -- so I can see my pictures full screen if I want. The only benefit of having them on the 622 is that my camera can be off. I do wish that they were full screen.


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## dbconsultant

James Long said:


> There is develpoment involved in introducing the new feature. That costs money.
> 
> No one promised you (or should have promised you) external storage when you leased the unit. Consider it a new feature available through software download instead of needing to trade out your receiver.
> 
> Some things are free, some are cheap. I would love to see E* announce that this feature addition would be free or cheap. If they do please appreciate it! Don't just take it for granted when E* spends months (if not years) getting something to work for you.
> 
> Even the "view pictures on your TV" option is something I could live without. My camera came with a video cable -- so I can see my pictures full screen if I want. The only benefit of having them on the 622 is that my camera can be off. I do wish that they were full screen.


Nobody promised me that I would have side-by-side PIP either, but if Dish created even a one-time fee when they update the software to enable it, I would be still be upset.

Being a programmer by trade, I know about software development so I'm not one of those "it only takes a push of a button to make it work" kind of people. I know developing and modification cost money. That's why Dish raises our rates periodically. My point, again, is that if Dish starts charging us every time they make a software modification, on top of raising our rates, we will be trouble. Not trying to take this thread off topic, just trying to clarify my original point on this one.


----------



## James Long

I don't see external storage (a major addition) to be in the same realm as a third way to view PIP (improving an existing feature). Both features wouldn't be there without considerable software engineering time. (I'm glad side by side is physically possible.) But one is more of a new feature than a tweaking.


----------



## jcrobso

brettbolt said:


> USB 2.0 has a maximum raw transfer rate of 480 Mbps, or 60 MBps. However, in practice I've read that it is more like 40 MBps.
> 
> So if it takes 1 hour and 55 minutes at 40 MBps, then it would work out to be a total transfer size of 276 GB.
> 
> But the destination drive does not have that much space, only 207 GB, so the transfer rate must be less than 30 MBps if it takes 1:55.
> 
> So the best case scenario is 30 MBps. If they are not all HD shows being transferred (like the first one in their list), then the transfer rate could be as low as 10 to 20 MBps.


The download rate will depend on what else the 622 is doing.
The logical thing to do would be to start the download before you go the bed so there is little else going on and the 622 can devote most it's processor cycles to the download.
There download rate will not be affected by the type of file downloaded(SD or HD), the SD files will take less time because they are smaller in size than the HD files.


----------



## Bill R

joebird said:


> As for the external drive fee -- I think they shoot themselves in the foot with this.


To me, ANY fee that DISH charges for the external drive feature is going to cause people to seriously look at other vendors. DirecTV isn't charging for the feature and cable services that are offering it aren't charging for it either.

Yes, I know that it cost Echostar a good deal to develop the feature but sometimes a company has to look at the rest of the market and see what they are doing. You HAVE to keep your product competitive and an external drive fee is something that could drive customers to the other guys. You can always spead development costs somewhere else but it is hard to get customers back because they felt that the fee was just too much and left.


----------



## Ron Barry

I am sure Dish is factoring the competition into the equation. Will be interesting to see how this shapes up.


----------



## timmiser

My guess is it will not cost anything to use the external USB drive feature however if you want tech support from Dish on the subject, you will need to purchase their hard drive due to the fact that they can't control all of the different hard drives and external cases and therefore can't offer tech support (other than some web based FAQs) for other drives. This would increase the sales of their USB drive and be there way of covering the cost of the cusotmer support reps.

-Tim


----------



## joebird

Now something like that seems acceptable. But we may not know for another 6 months (though I hope it's sooner).


----------



## Richard King

ISG said:


> guys;
> 
> Am I seeing double? I see one (drive?) laying horizontally and another Maxtor
> siting vertically.
> 
> ISG


You're not seeing double. They have two drives there to show that you can use any drive. Both were not hooked up, at least not at the same time. If you look at the Maxtor drive, I BELIEVE that's a dual drive case. It would be interesting if they made this to work with multiple drives like that. How about a RAID drive combo of some kind? That would speed the process.


----------



## waddo

James Long said:


> I don't see external storage (a major addition) to be in the same realm as a third way to view PIP (improving an existing feature). Both features wouldn't be there without considerable software engineering time. (I'm glad side by side is physically possible.) But one is more of a new feature than a tweaking.


I think you are choosing to argue on the side of DISH by saying that you agree they are right in charging additional fees for "major" upgrades. I disagree. Any new features they develop for the receiver I currently own/lease should be eligible for those new features FOR FREE.

They should either allow us to clear out the PPV On demand crap or they should let us use our own extra storage for FREE.

I am also in the software industry and *free upgrades* (to include new features) is the standard as long as you are up to date on your maintenance fees or service contracts. Not only am I in the industry but I also buy a lot of software to support the development of our product lines. I maintain my service contracts for those products not only for support but also because it keeps me eligible for FREE upgrades for feature enhancement. Product improvement is an expectation in this world today and those feature enhancements should be made available to us for free as long they are introduced in the same product if you want to keep your customers happy and not looking elsewhere. _There are of course expceptions with enterrprise products. But I would not classify a DISH Receiver as an enterprise product_

If DISH does charge, I will look at other options. Maybe they will keep me, but maybe they won't. If they don't charge for this feature my need to look elsewhere goes away. I think if they are smart they will consider there are likely other customers like me, especially if competitors will supply the same feature for free.


----------



## James Long

I hope it is free ... but I do understand why they would want to charge. That is all I'm trying to defend. The idea of a 'free upgrade' if you pay support fees is one I deal with at work. Not really free (cancel your support and find out!). Even companies with free upgrades will set thresholds ("we're moving to version 5 and you need to pay for that upgrade" or "it is an optional module that costs $$$ more") so it isn't unheard of.

Does that $5.98 DVR fee entitle you to free upgrades --- that is up to the software author. In this case, E*.



> I would love to see E* announce that this feature addition would be free or cheap. If they do please appreciate it! Don't just take it for granted when E* spends months (if not years) getting something to work for you.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I would love free too... but software companies do this all the time!

As JL said... if the current software is 4.0, and you have a service contract entitling you to free upgrades to 4.x releases... the company will hold back some features for release in version 5.0 so they can charge again! Even though your current hardware will support the new 5.0 (which means they are just enabling things you could have done with existing hardware) they still charge for the new features.

Companies, to me, are obligated to fix bugs in the current design so that it functions as originally advertised. Similarly, if they released with a "feature YY promised in 6 months" or some similar statement, then they should honor that as well.

But new features, while cool and nice to have for free, are really never guaranteed even if they could be provided.


----------



## waddo

HDMe said:


> I would love free too... but software companies do this all the time!
> 
> As JL said... if the current software is 4.0, and you have a service contract entitling you to free upgrades to 4.x releases... the company will hold back some features for release in version 5.0 so they can charge again! Even though your current hardware will support the new 5.0 (which means they are just enabling things you could have done with existing hardware) they still charge for the new features.
> 
> Companies, to me, are obligated to fix bugs in the current design so that it functions as originally advertised. Similarly, if they released with a "feature YY promised in 6 months" or some similar statement, then they should honor that as well.
> 
> But new features, while cool and nice to have for free, are really never guaranteed even if they could be provided.


No they are not guaranteed. And I definately should have said "product release" instead of product. That is what I meant but that is not what I said. That is the loophole I typically see. A new product release or version is often considered a new "product". But this is a little different. When those updates occur, you are not forced to get the new software release. If you are eligible and you want it you get it.

In this case the software is not what we are buying though. So I think that makes this a little different and the more I think about it - it makes no sense to discuss this and treat it like a software product upgrade. It is quite a different scenario. We are buying/leasing a piece of hardware (not software). How that hardware works should be transparent.

Business is business. So I understand that a good business will always strive to find ways to increase there recurring revenue stream, but that should be kept in check with the customer in mind. What is fair? That is the hard part. I am the consumer so I have the consumer mindset. As I see it, I already pay monthly for the box. I pay monthly for the DVR. I only have 25 hours of HD storage because they want to make VOD available when I have it turned off so that it can't even be used. I have delt with buggy audio, intermittant reboots, HDMI problems and now they might charge me to give me a means to get some reasonable storage space. Bite Me!!! I am a DVR addict and this 25 hours is making it difficult for me. It is not sufficient and they should rectify that for free one way or another.

None of the reasons I have heard justify a charge to me. Period. But that is just my opinion.

Didn't mean to be argumentative, but I was. :shrug:

My Bad...


----------



## eatonjb

what I would like to see, is the ability to burn to a DVD/HDDVD/BD or something.. if they were in DOS (FAT32) format or something where I can plug it in, take the movie/show and copy it to a DVD so I can later copy back to the HD and watch (just giving me the abiliy to put it in a DVD player would be a copyright risk)

would be nice.

we'll see.


----------



## James Long

I believe you will find that E* is doing everything possible to prevent people from using the programs stored on the external hard drive in any other way than to put back on the same ViP-622 or play back via USB. They might allow ViP-622s on the same account but preventing transferring content to other media (DVDs, PCs) seems to be a high goal of the project.

One more comment on the "chargable upgrade" issue:
The receiver is doing exactly what they said it would do when you agreed to lease it. It has 30 hours of HD program space (200 hours SD) and one must empty that space in order to use it for other programming. If that is unacceptable you probably should not have leased or purchased this receiver. It is a well known limitation on a receiver that has been on the market for a year.

External storage is a feature, not a right. I'm just waiting for the post where someone claims a constitutional right to external storage. If E* is forbidden to charge for new features they might as well stop developing them ... or reserve them for "the next box" and leave people who already have their receivers with no upgrade at all.

I hope they don't charge, but to demand that it must be free is over the top.


----------



## bobukcat

James Long said:


> I believe you will find that E* is doing everything possible to prevent people from using the programs stored on the external hard drive in any other way than to put back on the same ViP-622 or play back via USB. They might allow ViP-622s on the same account but preventing transferring content to other media (DVDs, PCs) seems to be a high goal of the project.
> 
> One more comment on the "chargable upgrade" issue:
> The receiver is doing exactly what they said it would do when you agreed to lease it. It has 30 hours of HD program space (200 hours SD) and one must empty that space in order to use it for other programming. If that is unacceptable you probably should not have leased or purchased this receiver. It is a well known limitation on a receiver that has been on the market for a year.
> 
> External storage is a feature, not a right. I'm just waiting for the post where someone claims a constitutional right to external storage. If E* is forbidden to charge for new features they might as well stop developing them ... or reserve them for "the next box" and leave people who already have their receivers with no upgrade at all.
> 
> I hope they don't charge, but to demand that it must be free is over the top.


Consumers have the power to influence companies decisions by sending their $$ to the ones that provide them with the best value. So although we can't "demand" they provide things like external storage for no additional fee, we can tell them we will consider a switch to a provider that DOES offer that feature for free (or per account versus per receiver if we're talking DVR fees)!

I don't want to switch, but if they give me reasons to consider it and it's a good move for me I'll send D* my $90/month instead, that's not a demand and it's not a threat, it's just a simple fact in a capitalist system.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I'm waiting to see what the official word will be. I would of course prefer free, but understand if they need/want to charge something. If they do charge, I would prefer a one-time fee to a recurring monthly charge. Unless we were talking $1.00 per month, an up-front charge would be over and done with.

Now... what is it worth? I don't know. Personally, I'm not thinking $90 is a good figure to pay for external storage, when you figure that wouldn't include the storage itself. Would I pay $50? I don't know.

I'll wait and see what it is, and decide from there. I haven't filled up my 30/200 hours of space yet... and I tend to record to watch and not keep indefinately. With external storage I would archive some good HD movies to keep long-term for rewatching... but I'm not sure what that feature is worth to me just yet.


----------



## James Long

bobukcat said:


> ... we can tell them we will consider a switch to a provider that DOES offer that feature for free (or per account versus per receiver if we're talking DVR fees)!


Unfortunately D* does not offer an external archive feature. They do allow you to easily REPLACE your drive with an external drive (and set up all your events every time you swap external drives). E*'s feature is portable storage that can be disconnected or replaced by another USB drive at will (as long as you are not transferring data at the moment).

Similar features though. Choose the way (and the receiver) that works the best for you!


----------



## marketinghelp

Will this also work on the 625 DVR's?


----------



## James Long

marketinghelp said:


> Will this also work on the 625 DVR's?


I believe it is ViP-622 only. I have not heard any firm plans for the 942, 625 or other DVRs.


----------



## P Smith

It was a rumor about the USB disk will play with your ViP211 on same account.


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> It was a rumor about the USB disk will play with your ViP211 on same account.


Yes, just a rumor (and a request by me in one of these threads).


----------



## Richard King

I believe it will be available on all VIP DVR receivers. I did confirm that it will eventually be available on the 942, didn't ask on the 625.


----------



## kf4omc

James Long said:


> I believe it is ViP-622 only. I have not heard any firm plans for the 942, 625 or other DVRs.


When you plug in a USB drive to a 625 it shows almost the same screens you see in the pics. but when you try and use it a message comes up saying this feature is not yet enabled. Softwere seem s like it is there for it just not turned on.


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## James Long

Looks like they are at least thinking in that direction.


----------



## Zero327

bobukcat said:


> Consumers have the power to influence companies decisions by sending their $$ to the ones that provide them with the best value. So although we can't "demand" they provide things like external storage for no additional fee, we can tell them we will consider a switch to a provider that DOES offer that feature for free (or per account versus per receiver if we're talking DVR fees)!
> 
> I don't want to switch, but if they give me reasons to consider it and it's a good move for me I'll send D* my $90/month instead, that's not a demand and it's not a threat, it's just a simple fact in a capitalist system.


Consumers have the power to influence companies to the point at which they reach what they're worth to said company as an individual. You stated that for you this is $90/month. E* has 13 million replacements for you, and will probably have a few thousand more tomorrow. Consumers only have power in VERY large groups. I somehow doubt you can get together one large enough over 622 portability for free. Especially considering the alternative *cough*HR20*cough*.

Last note, you buy a 2007 Hummer. In 2009 they take the same model and give it steel belted tires and an awesome sound system. Should you expect to drive your Hummer into a local dealership and for them to yank the old equipment out and install the new features for you for free? Yes it can be done, but you'll be paying for it. Same diff.


----------



## P Smith

Zero327 said:


> <skip>Last note, you buy a 2007 Hummer. In 2009 they take the same model and give it steel belted tires and an awesome sound system. Should you expect to drive your Hummer into a local dealership and for them to yank the old equipment out and install the new features for you for free? Yes it can be done, but you'll be paying for it. Same diff.


I'm totally with you in first part (skipped), but totally DISAGREE for the example. Totally different item and business model.
Better if you'll take a cell phone for the comparison .


----------



## Beer Kahuna

James Long said:


> I believe you will find that E* is doing everything possible to prevent people from using the programs stored on the external hard drive in any other way than to put back on the same ViP-622 or play back via USB. They might allow ViP-622s on the same account but preventing transferring content to other media (DVDs, PCs) seems to be a high goal of the project.
> 
> One more comment on the "chargable upgrade" issue:
> *The receiver is doing exactly what they said it would do when you agreed to lease it. It has 30 hours of HD program space (200 hours SD) and one must empty that space in order to use it for other programming. If that is unacceptable you probably should not have leased or purchased this receiver. It is a well known limitation on a receiver that has been on the market for a year.*
> 
> *External storage is a feature, not a right.* I'm just waiting for the post where someone claims a constitutional right to external storage. If E* is forbidden to charge for new features they might as well stop developing them ... or reserve them for "the next box" and leave people who already have their receivers with no upgrade at all.
> 
> I hope they don't charge, but to demand that it must be free is over the top.


This is not exactly true. I own a 942, a 622, and I lease another 622. When I purchased my 942, Dish was already announcing the external hard-drive archive "feature" was being developed, then the 622 comes out and they have a working demo at 2006 CES for release later that year. I purchase a 622 and archive storage was "not quite ready". Then I lease one in Oct '06 - "Not yet - soon". Now 2007 CES and it's "1st quarter 2007 - No, Wait -maybe June." Give me a break. Yes software developement and DRM issues take some time. Had the release of this feature (you can argue either way that it was a promised feature) been earlier, I would have maybe paid for it. After an 18 month wait, I'm less inclined to. A *ONE-TIME ENABLING FEE OF $5* is about all I'm willing to pay - and that is still out of protest. I have paid over $100 per month for programming for the past 6 years and have purchased every piece of equipment I have (except the last leased 622) - a total of 7 receivers, 2 dishes, switches, etc. etc. OK - Rant Off


----------



## bobukcat

Zero327 said:


> Consumers have the power to influence companies to the point at which they reach what they're worth to said company as an individual. You stated that for you this is $90/month. E* has 13 million replacements for you, and will probably have a few thousand more tomorrow. Consumers only have power in VERY large groups. I somehow doubt you can get together one large enough over 622 portability for free. Especially considering the alternative *cough*HR20*cough*.
> 
> Last note, you buy a 2007 Hummer. In 2009 they take the same model and give it steel belted tires and an awesome sound system. Should you expect to drive your Hummer into a local dealership and for them to yank the old equipment out and install the new features for you for free? Yes it can be done, but you'll be paying for it. Same diff.


Companies who take the "I have 13 million replacements for you attitude die in this economy, I'm not saying that one person is going to break them, but if they take that attitude on enough issues the numbers add up quickly. Competition in this space is only getting tougher, not easier. You can rip on the HR20 now, and from many accounts it's a POS, but everyone one the D* side of argument could have made the same comments a year ago when everyone here was ready to catapult their 622s into the stratosphere!

I don't think you can compare a Vehicle to a DBS reciever, for one the business model is completely different (majority of profit on hardware, not service, entry price, etc.) so no one EXPECTS features to be added later at no charge. I also don't think a cell-phone is a good example because the entry price is generally lower. If you want to talk higher-end devices I'll agree but can also list at least 15 added features I've been given for free on Blackberry over the years.

The big thing is that this feature, much like the Ethernet Port and other items of the 622, were touted as "coming soon". I love the 622, and as I said, I REALLY don't want to switch, but at the same time I'm getting a little tired of getting "dished and dimed" on fees. If you are perfectly happy to pay them more money for the feature, good for you, as for me it would be enough to make me CONSIDER switching or just not signing up for it.


----------



## waddo

Zero327 said:


> Last note, you buy a 2007 Hummer. In 2009 they take the same model and give it steel belted tires and an awesome sound system. Should you expect to drive your Hummer into a local dealership and for them to yank the old equipment out and install the new features for you for free? Yes it can be done, but you'll be paying for it. Same diff.


Not even close to the same.

New Vehicle models can essentially equate to a new car. Often times that is not the case, but it can be. So I believe a more accurate comparison,IMO, would be the VIP622 to the previous HD DVR model.

So no - it is not the "Same diff."


----------



## harsh

waddo said:


> New Vehicle models can essentially equate to a new car. Often times that is not the case, but it can be.


New "truck" models come out once every six to seven years these days. The H2 isn't going to change appreciably (software only) until there is a "new" Suburban. While it wouldn't seem like it, the comparison is surprisingly appropriate.

It is likely that additional storage space will be added to the ViP622, but features like two OTA tuners may have to wait for a new model (from the CES interview).


----------



## P Smith

Guys, the providers sell SERVICE ie programs, so the STB/DVR cannot fall in a clause of automibiles. Doesn't matter how often new truck model come to automarket.


----------



## harsh

P Smith said:


> Guys, the providers sell SERVICE ie programs, so the STB/DVR cannot fall in a clause of automibiles. Doesn't matter how often new truck model come to automarket.


We're not talking about programming service. We're talking about receivers. Look closely at the title of the thread.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

harsh said:


> We're not talking about programming service. We're talking about receivers. Look closely at the title of the thread.


Technically we are talking about services... the receiver could have an enabled USB and Ethernet port, but Dish still not release software that supports external devices. As long as the receiver does everything it was promised to do at the time of purchase/lease, then any additional features are to some extent "bonus" beyond that... so whether or not we like it, it is reasonable for Dish to ask for more money later for other services.


----------



## Donp

If E* was really serious video transfer the port would have been IEEE 1394 instead of USB 2, as in all digital video cameras.


----------



## harsh

HDMe said:


> As long as the receiver does everything it was promised to do at the time of purchase/lease, then any additional features are to some extent "bonus" beyond that... so whether or not we like it, it is reasonable for Dish to ask for more money later for other services.


To use another automotive analogy, it would be like GM putting OnStar in most of their vehicles but requiring a substantial monthly fee to use it.

I'm pretty sure my Lincoln has a Sirius antenna hidden somewhere.


----------



## harsh

Donp said:


> If E* was really serious video transfer the port would have been IEEE 1394 instead of USB 2, as in all digital video cameras.


They aren't into transferring video. They are interested in moving encrypted (as opposed the HDCP protected) MPEG files.

How many firewire capable external hard drives do you have laying around and what filesystem is on them?

I'm not sure how you relate digital video cameras with satellite receivers. They have distinctly different applications.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Donp said:


> If E* was really serious video transfer the port would have been IEEE 1394 instead of USB 2, as in all digital video cameras.


Maybe I am missing something here... but last time I checked USB 2.0 had higher transfer rates than IEEE 1394 (firewire).


----------



## P Smith

Missed a lot !

You'll need take a look into technical forums, not here;
one word - sustain speed, and bandwidth; ok two parameters .


----------



## James Long

If we are going to continue to post odd analogies we should at least stick with analogies that match the description of what E* is being accused of doing.

The on-star thing doesn't work because that (as described) is a feature that was installed but not enabled. External hard drives did not come installed but disabled.

The USB port came "installed" on the ViP-622, but the most basic description of it's function is "to extend the file system". How USB is used to extend the file system varies. The 622 can address a PocketDish and send programming. It can also address a compatible camera and retrieve photos. They are working on addressing a USB hard drive and being able to send and receive content securely. 

The IDEA to do USB transfers existed before the 622 was sold, but the tech wasn't there a year ago. It wasn't "installed but disabled". It simply wasn't written yet.

Here's an analogy ...

I have a satellite dish and receiver that is capable of receiving signals from various different satellites in all the various different formats that E* uses. But for some reason my receiver does NOT receive every channel. I look through the guide and see dozens of channels in red ... most of them international channels but still ... my receiver HAS the technology built in to see those channels.

When I ask E* about those channels they want me to pay extra for them. I don't see why I should ... after all, my receiver HAS the technology. Why should I pay more just to activate it?

Why? Because each of those extra channels and channel packages are a service separate from my normal Dish Network services.

The service we pay for each month is for the availability of the channels we subscribe to --- nothing more. ViP-211 customers do not get the ability to record unless they lease/buy a ViP-622 DVR (or a third party solution like TiVo). The base programing packages are just that ... programming.

Add the DVR fee. What does that pay for? It would be nice if it paid for everything the DVR could ever do, but that's not our decision - it is E*'s. In their case it covers the general use of one DVR. In D*'s case the fee covers the use of all DVRs on an account. Each company can choose what their fees cover. If E* decides that archiving is not covered by the DVR fee then that is their decision. One I would not support, but companies set policy - we just get to choose between companies and whine on the Internet.


----------



## harsh

James Long said:


> The on-star thing doesn't work because that (as described) is a feature that was installed but not enabled. External hard drives did not come installed but disabled.


I respectfully disagree. All the hardware needed is already there in both cases. If this "fee" comes to pass, it will be almost an identical situation.


----------



## James Long

On-Star is a special cellular telephone built into a vehicle with a simplified interface and an associated call center service that allows it to work. There is no purpose in installing the On-Star equipment in a vehicle other than to provide On-Star service.

External USB drive support is a new use for a hardware connection that has other applications (PocketDish and photo transfer from cameras). The USB connector on the receivers is not useless without the "external USB" service in the way that On-Star equiptment is useless without the call center based "On-Star" service.

It's different enough.


----------



## Larry Caldwell

James Long said:


> On-Star is a special cellular telephone built into a vehicle with a simplified interface and an associated call center service that allows it to work. There is no purpose in installing the On-Star equipment in a vehicle other than to provide On-Star service.
> 
> External USB drive support is a new use for a hardware connection that has other applications (PocketDish and photo transfer from cameras). The USB connector on the receivers is not useless without the "external USB" service in the way that On-Star equiptment is useless without the call center based "On-Star" service.
> 
> It's different enough.


If you are talking about nonfunctional hardware, the Ethernet port on the VIP receivers is a better topic. I was even told that the IP in VIP stood for Internet Protocol. I even wired ethernet into my home theater location, in preparation for the VIP 622. And there it sits. Access to DBSTalk.Com through my TV set is denied to me.


----------



## James Long

I'm glad they were forward thinking enough to put the ethernet ports on the ViP receivers ... even if it took more than a year to develop a use for it. Yet the ViP receivers still are not as internet ready as the next round of ViP machines ... with power line ethernet adapters built in.


----------



## INHUMANITY

James Long said:


> I'm glad they were forward thinking enough to put the ethernet ports on the ViP receivers ... even if it took more than a year to develop a use for it. Yet the ViP receivers still are not as internet ready as the next round of ViP machines ... with power line ethernet adapters built in.


My cat-5 cable is plugged in and the lights on my 622 are lit up. I knew/know it wasn't active, but I already had cat-5 run to my home theater for my old Xbox. So now I play the waiting game. 

I'm psyched about the external hard drive feature. It would be great to get HD stuff off the 622, but from what I've read it's only going to be used for SD content.

With 500GB hard drives selling for around the $150 mark it could be a godsend for people that like to archive their recordings.


----------



## P Smith

If the 'new' model ViP622-1 will share same software with 622, then you could install same type of 500 GB disk into your 622, if it not leasing.


----------



## James Long

It has yet to be shown that any extra space on the new drive will be given to customers. It was only a casual comment at CES, but the statement that the 500GB drive would provide "more room for VOD" sticks in my mind. I would not guarantee that a ViP-622-1 would have more than 15HD / 200SD hours of "My Recordings".

I HOPE that they give customers more hard drive space, but I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## conehead433

INHUMANITY said:


> My cat-5 cable is plugged in and the lights on my 622 are lit up. I knew/know it wasn't active, but I already had cat-5 run to my home theater for my old Xbox. So now I play the waiting game.
> 
> I'm psyched about the external hard drive feature. It would be great to get HD stuff off the 622, but from what I've read it's only going to be used for SD content.
> 
> With 500GB hard drives selling for around the $150 mark it could be a godsend for people that like to archive their recordings.


Well I have been patiently waiting for Dish to have external hard drive capability. But what would be the point of only being able to backup SD content. I currently am not a subscriber, but I am considering it now that the 622 can be had as of Feb 1 without having to pay the $199 up front. If I don't have some way to archive HD content externally I'm not sure I want to subscribe. Why would Dish want to limit the use to just SD. Obviously if you back up HD content you are committed to keeping their receiver and remaining a subscriber in order to be able to watch your archived files. You can record SD to an external device already so Dish would in effect be giving you what you already had.


----------



## INHUMANITY

conehead433 said:


> Well I have been patiently waiting for Dish to have external hard drive capability. But what would be the point of only being able to backup SD content. I currently am not a subscriber, but I am considering it now that the 622 can be had as of Feb 1 without having to pay the $199 up front. If I don't have some way to archive HD content externally I'm not sure I want to subscribe. Why would Dish want to limit the use to just SD. Obviously if you back up HD content you are committed to keeping their receiver and remaining a subscriber in order to be able to watch your archived files. You can record SD to an external device already so Dish would in effect be giving you what you already had.


The only reason I'd be using an external HD would be to archive HD recordings.

Recently the judges allowed the music industry (RIAA) to go after XM since they now allow users to record the streams to MP3's, so I wouldn't be surprised if D* would be concerned about the MPAA coming after them.

You can read more about it here: http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2007/01/21/ap/hitech/d8mogkr00.txt

It's a bit disappointing to us end users that aren't "abusing" the system.

I truly hope E* stands up to them if that becomes an issue.


----------



## bobukcat

INHUMANITY said:


> I'm psyched about the external hard drive feature. It would be great to get HD stuff off the 622, but from what I've read it's only going to be used for SD content.


I think you're confusing the pocket Dish with the up-coming (we hope!) USB external drive support. There was no mention in the CES information of it being SD only and in fact there are slides shown of them transferring HD content to the USB drive.

As to copyright protection, E* already encrypts everything the 622 records to the drive with a unique key based on the receiver's SN. They have stated that in it's original release (again, IF we ever see it and how much they decide to charge for it) the USB drive will only be usable with the same 622 the programs were recorded on. They HOPE to add the ability to tie it to any receiver on the account later, but that's another big IF.


----------



## INHUMANITY

bobukcat said:


> I think you're confusing the pocket Dish with the up-coming (we hope!) USB external drive support. There was no mention in the CES information of it being SD only and in fact there are slides shown of them transferring HD content to the USB drive.
> 
> As to copyright protection, E* already encrypts everything the 622 records to the drive with a unique key based on the receiver's SN. They have stated that in it's original release (again, IF we ever see it and how much they decide to charge for it) the USB drive will only be usable with the same 622 the programs were recorded on. They HOPE to add the ability to tie it to any receiver on the account later, but that's another big IF.


No confusion here.

From what I read in the thread discussing external USB support, we'll be able to use any "over the counter" external hard drive with USB support. I.E. Using a 500GB hard drive in an USB enclosure.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

INHUMANITY said:


> I'm psyched about the external hard drive feature. It would be great to get HD stuff off the 622, but from what I've read it's only going to be used for SD content.


Where has it ever been said that the external hard drive would only be for SD? I've never seen such a statement from Dish or anyone even discussing rumors about such a thing.


----------



## FTA Michael

AFAIK, you'll be able to transfer HD recordings to the external hard drive, but you won't be able to do anything with them except play them back on the same receiver that recorded them. This both limits the usefulness of an external hard drive and reduces the possibility of complaints from the content providers.


----------



## koralis

INHUMANITY said:


> The only reason I'd be using an external HD would be to archive HD recordings.
> 
> Recently the judges allowed the music industry (RIAA) to go after XM since they now allow users to record the streams to MP3's, so I wouldn't be surprised if D* would be concerned about the MPAA coming after them.
> 
> You can read more about it here: http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2007/01/21/ap/hitech/d8mogkr00.txt
> 
> It's a bit disappointing to us end users that aren't "abusing" the system.
> 
> I truly hope E* stands up to them if that becomes an issue.


This judge is an idiot.



> "It is manifestly apparent that the use of a radio-cassette player to record songs played over free radio does not threaten the market for copyrighted works as does the use of a recorder which stores songs from private radio broadcasts on a subscription fee basis," she said.


What's the difference whether the radio broadcast is public or private? Why does it matter if it's a subscription or free? The end result is the same (with the exception of the XM version storing all of the proper track info and being digital the whole way.)

It's also identical to the practice of videotaping a network broadcast, etc, which is legal and the precedent has been set for decades.

Since no copy protection is being broken, the DMCA can't be invoked.

The only real problem is that the RIAA didn't specifically require XM to stipulate that they'd never develop a device to record what they broadcast, but that's their own shortsightedness. As it is, the same net effect can take place with a secondary device manufactured by someone other than XM, it just wouldn't be as convenient as the built-in device. It's much the same as a stand-alone tivo + Dish reciever as compared to Dish DVR. Both can accomplish basically the same thing, the former just requires a few more steps and is uglier.



> She said XM operates like traditional radio broadcast providers who cannot offer an interactive service, publish programming schedules prior to broadcast and play songs from an artist more often than specified within a three-hour period. But by broadcasting and storing copyrighted music for later recording by the consumer, the judge said XM is both a broadcaster and a distributor, but only paying to be a broadcaster.
> 
> "The record companies sufficiently allege that serving as a music distributor to XM + MP3 users gives XM added commercial benefit as a satellite radio broadcaster," Batts said.


Lets say that XM decides to sell their recording device design to Sony. Now XM is simply a broadcaster again, and Sony is the one that's recording the songs, which is legal and not against any broadcaster/distribution rights clauses.

Nothing changes except that the lawsuit goes away because the company is not "distributing" any longer.


----------



## Richard King

I don't recall any limitation to SD only on the external drive either. As for using only on the receiver that recorded them, future feature (do NOT buy for "future features") will allow playback on any receiver with the proper connector on the same account.


----------



## James Long

INHUMANITY said:


> I'm psyched about the external hard drive feature. It would be great to get HD stuff off the 622, but from what I've read it's only going to be used for SD content.


Missed this post until it was quoted. **YOU HAVE READ WRONG.**

The demo at CES showed a HD movie being transferred. The USB drive works with both HD and SD.
What may be confusing you is that PocketDish only works with SD.
Hopefully all the corrections will make up for the one tiny error!


----------



## INHUMANITY

James Long said:


> Missed this post until it was quoted. **YOU HAVE READ WRONG.**
> 
> The demo at CES showed a HD movie being transferred. The USB drive works with both HD and SD.
> What may be confusing you is that PocketDish only works with SD.
> Hopefully all the corrections will make up for the one tiny error!


I'm not thinking of PocketDish -- I could care less about PocketDish.

I swear I read a press release via Google News a few weeks back regarding it.

Obviously it's just an error, but I did read it. Scouts honor!


----------



## James Long

As long as people understand that the USB drive works with HD and SD you are forgiven.


----------



## INHUMANITY

James Long said:


> As long as people understand that the USB drive works with HD and SD you are forgiven.


ATTN ALL: External USB support is compatible with SD & HD!

(I'm taking James' word for it, so if I'm wrong, blame him!)


----------



## Larry Caldwell

FTA Michael said:


> AFAIK, you'll be able to transfer HD recordings to the external hard drive, but you won't be able to do anything with them except play them back on the same receiver that recorded them. This both limits the usefulness of an external hard drive and reduces the possibility of complaints from the content providers.


Was there any information about the file format of the external drive? I have a couple of external drives with plenty of free space, but they are formatted NTFS. Somehow I doubt that Dish is going to support NTFS. They might not even support standard Linux file systems.

I suppose it doesn't matter, since you can put together a 300 gig external HD for less than $100 nowadays.


----------



## P Smith

It is Linux EXT3 and Dish's own EFS format.


----------



## markdc

A couple of podcasts (HT Guys and Extreme tech) both said the release of this was imminent. Has anyone heard anything?


----------



## James Long

Later this year, per Monday night's Tech Chat ... not imminent.


----------



## INHUMANITY

Fry's now has 400GB external HD's for $139.... C'mon E*!!


----------



## markdc

James Long said:


> Later this year, per Monday night's Tech Chat ... not imminent.


crap...


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Sorry guys, external drive support is absolutely, definitely NOT imminent. There are still quite a few issues to work out, not all of which are business model related...


----------



## BobaBird

I'm hoping this delay is used to finish development so that we never see the limitation of having to play back from only the source 622. You should be able to play your recordings through any 622 you plug it into. At least the ones on your account, but especially any replacement.


----------



## P Smith

Now we have f&^%& price for enable USB disk for 622 ( tell me exactly what that means ) - $40 ! 
http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/dish-network-vip722-dvr-1160.shtml

That's a result of reading posts at forums -'yeah, I would pay the $20 or $30, blah blah' - how you have it mister 'everything will be good for me' ! DOUBLED ! Enjoy.


----------



## sbdjs

$40 @#$%^&! E* can kiss my A**. I'll only pay $40 if there is a way to play & burn recordings from the USB drive through a PC. 

I know why E* thinks they can get this fee too... They know most people with DVRs have limited storage because they setup a bunch of timers. This makes the customer look desperate for archiving capabilities. What E* doesn't realize is only the hard core couch potatoes will be proactive enough to maintain their shows by archiving them to external storage. I'm betting most people DVR to simply avoid commercials and to watch their shows on demand. If they don't watch everything they've recorded before it's deleted, they still have several other shows to watch. If they are true hard core big time fans of a show, they'll get the series on DVD for Christmas.


----------



## bobukcat

I'm just excited we finally have a date for the release of it, I started to think we'd never see it. $40 sucks, but I'll probably pay it.... :money:


----------



## James Long

I hope that author's sources are wrong.


----------



## Beer Kahuna

James Long said:


> I hope that author's sources are wrong.


I hope so too. However, I would gut it out and pay it as long as I could watch the shows on any of my 3 units and they get the hard drive size limitation handled. I could see a 2 terabyte array (or larger!) usb connected storage drive.


----------



## koji68

$40 seems reasonable to me since it is a one-time, household fee.

Over 24 months it comes to $1.67 a month. I pay more than that on DVD disks and I can't store HD on them!


----------



## patmurphey

For a measly $40 I will gleefully hook up an external hard drive. Would you rather pay $3 a month for the next 5 years? Or maybe you'd like to pay $199 to upgrade for that "new" model receiver with more capacity?


----------



## Stewart Vernon

Since Dish hasn't announced it, I'll continue to hope it is not $40... At $40 I would wait and see if it comes down... because I just don't need it that badly even though I want it.

Right now you can get decent 500GB external USB drives for around $125 or so if you look around and look for sales, maybe even lower. I can't see paying 1/3 of that price just for the privelege of being able to use the drive.

I could have seen maybe $20... but anything above that seems excessive. Hard drive prices continue to get cheaper... so this time next year the drive itself may not cost $40 so I am hoping this is a rumor-that-got-out-of-hand rather than realistic.

Could also be an intentional leak (conspiracy theory alert!!) to guage reaction.


----------



## P Smith

At SatGuys the author answered to your question:
=================================
Don't shoot the messenger! That fee came straight from the horse's mouth (Echostar corporate). By all means, make your voice hear and complain! Maybe they'll reconsider or will offer discounts for long-term customers? Hey, it never hurts to ask.

Actually all of the information in the article came from my conversations with the Echostar people at the Digital Life press preview last week plus a few follow-up calls and e-mails since then. I don't know what a "retailer recap" is.

Yesterday is when I got the number from Echostar. If you have direct Echostar contacts in corporate, please ask them to review the article for accuracy. And if they'd like to contact us directly, I will put them in touch with my Echostar contact so they can discuss the issue amongst themselves.
========================================

I wouldn't surprise if Dish will add soon monthly fee for using external storage with more then one DVR in household.

Giving a finger, you'll lost a hand .


----------



## dbconsultant

HDMe said:


> Since Dish hasn't announced it, I'll continue to hope it is not $40... At $40 I would wait and see if it comes down... because I just don't need it that badly even though I want it.
> 
> Right now you can get decent 500GB external USB drives for around $125 or so if you look around and look for sales, maybe even lower. I can't see paying 1/3 of that price just for the privelege of being able to use the drive.
> 
> I could have seen maybe $20... but anything above that seems excessive. Hard drive prices continue to get cheaper... so this time next year the drive itself may not cost $40 so I am hoping this is a rumor-that-got-out-of-hand rather than realistic.
> 
> Could also be an intentional leak (conspiracy theory alert!!) to guage reaction.


I agree with you. At $40, it will be a wait and see situation. It may end up being necessary with so many more channels that I record from going HD but $40 is pretty steep.:nono2:


----------



## Jim5506

Maybe I'll wait 6 month or so and see if they offer a special or reduce the EXORBIDANT FEE!!

Now that I have my 211 connected to my TiVo I can transfer almost anything I need to DVD easily, no need for External storage!


----------



## Stewart Vernon

dbconsultant said:


> I agree with you. At $40, it will be a wait and see situation. It may end up being necessary with so many more channels that I record from going HD but $40 is pretty steep.:nono2:


After posting, I got an email from Best Buy with some Rewardzone member coupons.. I could go to Best Buy right now (but I'm not) and get a 500GB Western digital External USB 2.0 drive sale priced at $129.99... and I have a 20% off coupon, so that knocks it down to $103.99 so now we are creeping closer to 50% of the cost of the drive for a $40.00 fee.

I have to think that is just not going to be the charge when the time comes. Personally I would like it to be free! but am willing to pay a nominal fee... and $40 just isn't nominal.


----------



## dbconsultant

HDMe said:


> After posting, I got an email from Best Buy with some Rewardzone member coupons.. I could go to Best Buy right now (but I'm not) and get a 500GB Western digital External USB 2.0 drive sale priced at $129.99... and I have a 20% off coupon, so that knocks it down to $103.99 so now we are creeping closer to 50% of the cost of the drive for a $40.00 fee.
> 
> I have to think that is just not going to be the charge when the time comes. Personally I would like it to be free! but am willing to pay a nominal fee... and $40 just isn't nominal.


Ditto, HDMe. Of course I would have liked it to be free but didn't really expect it to be. But, yeah, $40 is about twice what I would have expected the highest charge to be. I transfer a lot of things to DVD - movies to take travelling and such - of course, then they are not HD so I would like to be able to watch most of the HD stuff (the regular programs I dvr now from TLC, History and the Discovery channels) from the 622 not from a DVD. As it is, the DVR gets pretty full now. Come August 15th, it's going to be fuller. Maybe that's what Dish is counting on to get us to cough up the $40.


----------



## koralis

I don't need it for $40... frankly I don't need it period and it would mainly be a toy to store up movies to potentially watch (the ones we weren't gung-ho about, which get watched immediately!) when company comes over, etc.

Most likely it's a marketting ploy... release at a high price first and see how many people give you their money. When the pool dries up, drop the price to $30. Wait another couple of months. Drop the price to $20. Wait a couple of months, now announce that it's a free perk for being a Dish Network customer (or rather, pay $20 and get $5 off your bill for 4 months.)



Eh.. not desirable enough to make me want to play the game this time out.


----------



## langlin

A report says the port will be activated on August 15th and there will be a one time charge of $39.99, is the true?

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/dish-network-vip722-dvr-1160.shtml

Leon


----------



## ChuckA

The author of the article says it is true, but until it is announced by Dish or becomes available on that date, no one really knows.


----------



## AVJohnnie

I like the "Entire Household" enable fee idea -- hope it's actually true.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

That's the thing.. if they price it too high, then people like me can just delete some stuff to make room and not pay any more attention to the option. If they made it free or cheap, then I would buy into it, perhaps even sign on for more channels since I'd know I would have the storage space if I got behind in watching stuff.

The cheaper they price it, the more of us will jump on board... but let's be honest... I'm not sure how high of an attachment rate this option will have. For all the folks that just use the DVR to skip commercials or time-shift while away at work... the extra storage means a lot less.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

The USB port is already active... you can plug in a USB "key" or camera and transfer pictures to display on your TV.

What is potentially being enabled soon is the ability to also use that USB port for an external hard drive to have additional storage space for DVR programs.

I'm in the school that until I see Dish formally announce a price, I am not believing anything or panicking.


----------



## Jim5506

He also reports that the 722 will have more HD recording capacity than the 622, 55 hours vs 30 hours. Most other reports have said the extra HD space was for VOD. Maybe he is wrong on both counts, maybe he is right.

I don't see $199 for a questionable upgrade from a 622 to a 722 unless there is something compellingly better about the 722. If they don't allocate more HD space to VOD, how can they implement HD VOD.


----------



## Ron Barry

Well if true that would be cool.


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> Giving a finger, you'll lost a hand .


A lot of people will be giving E* the finger over this one if it stays $40.


----------



## TiVoPrince

*One time $39.95 for 'all your household can eat' is OK*
but only if this is a seamless solution that 'just works' by adding capacity hours without the need to manage/transfer recordings. Multiple screens/selections to move content sounds incredibly kludgy to me. If this is simply another 'bucket' for recordings that I have to actively manage I'll pass until a real solution arrives...


----------



## Marriner

It seems a little fishy to me that all of this previously unreleased and much speculated about data was mysteriously released only to Chris Boylan and not to cnet or any other 'mainstream' technology media. I take this to be just more speculation unless the authors sources are cited and are credible. After all, "A release is not a release until it is released" Right, Ron?


----------



## Ron Barry

Yep... Until we actually see a 722 in the wild we will not know for sure, but still cool and still a promising article. As for creditability of the article, well it is to each individual to decide on its creditability and that is all I will say on that one.


----------



## P Smith

James Long said:


> A lot of people will be giving E* the finger over this one if it stays $40.


I mean - ppl who was publicly accept that leaked price $20 or $30 'gave their finger' month ago.


----------



## Ron Barry

I merged the other USB support thread into this one since there seemed to be common conversation about today's article and both were centered around USB external drive support.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

I'm also skeptical when I factor in that no one on the forums has come up with an even semi-credible confirmation of what that article says.

Usually info like this comes either through the rumor mill OR direct from Dish as a press release. Sometimes the rumor mill gets it wrong, but at least it comes through the mill... and the forums have been pretty quiet when it comes to any price for enabling this feature. We've all guessed and speculated and "voted" to some degree... but I find it odd that Dish would sanction this guy's article before they have announced the service themselves... and if he got it through "contacts" then I'm surprised the same info didn't leak out to other people like other rumors get started.


----------



## allargon

You all are griping in the wrong direction. It's the $200 to upgrade from a 622 to a 722 that irks me. My 622 is the lone silver component in a sea of black!


----------



## plasmacat

Say you go for the external storage, buy a hard drive and store lots and lots of shows on it. Then you decide to drop Dish and go to D* or something else. Can you still access these shows?
If the answer is no, I'm sticking with my DVD recorder to archive shows.


----------



## P Smith

The answer is NO eventually.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

plasmacat said:


> Say you go for the external storage, buy a hard drive and store lots and lots of shows on it. Then you decide to drop Dish and go to D* or something else. Can you still access these shows?
> If the answer is no, I'm sticking with my DVD recorder to archive shows.


I haven't tried watching DVRed stuff without the satellite connected, but I assume it works. That being the case... IF you owned a ViP622 then you may be able to still view stuff from the external storage after quitting Dish... but I wouldn't imagine you would be able to watch it through any other device.


----------



## Stewart Vernon

allargon said:


> You all are griping in the wrong direction. It's the $200 to upgrade from a 622 to a 722 that irks me. My 622 is the lone silver component in a sea of black!


I wouldn't say "irk"... but it is kind of confusing. I can't see why anyone would want to upgrade from a ViP622 to a ViP722 for that much. Unless it does something great that none of us have heard about yet... it is mainly just a 622 with a larger hard drive which may or may not allow you to use that space aside from VOD. So I can't see it being worth $200 upgrade price from a 622.


----------



## P Smith

Just look what AT&T/2WIRE made from 622 board:
- new firmware by 2WIRE
- 500 GB disk
- Internet access ( to/from )
- 20 hrs of HD content (!).

Now imagine how close new 722 by HW to the 622HZ.


----------



## AVJohnnie

allargon said:


> You all are griping in the wrong direction. It's the $200 to upgrade from a 622 to a 722 that irks me. My 622 is the lone silver component in a sea of black!


My guess is that this is a very preliminary "if you own your 622" stipulation. For those of us that lease their 622s and are nearing the ends of their 18 month contractual commitments, other more interesting offers may be forthcoming...predicated upon obligating to a new contractual commitment, of course...


----------



## MrBoylan

HDMe said:


> I'm also skeptical when I factor in that no one on the forums has come up with an even semi-credible confirmation of what that article says.


Hey, thanks for the vote of confidence!  The information came straight from DISH Network's corporate communications group from a conversation I had with them at a press-only event last week. And most of the details (including pricing and release date) were later confirmed (yesterday) by an admin named Scott over on that *other* DISH discussion forum from independent conversations he had with the E* people (I suppose it would be in poor taste to provide a link to other forums so I will not do that).

As for the increased storage capacity of the 722 vs. the 622, that came from an internal DISH fact sheet on the ViP722 with a rev date of 6/26/07. It did not specifically state whether any of that 55 hours of HD recording space would be dedicated to VOD, but from the wording/presentation of the info, that did not seem to be the case.

We shall see whether E* actually meets the promised prices/dates, but the facts themselves were approved by the DISH guys before I posted them.

Regards,

-Chris


----------



## Stewart Vernon

MrBoylan said:


> Hey, thanks for the vote of confidence!  The information came straight from DISH Network's corporate communications group from a conversation I had with them at a press-only event last week.


Welcome... and don't take my doubts personally. I sit in the camp that enjoys discussing rumors and speculating about things, but never believing anything unless and until Dish issues a press release. I have worked for a company that had lots of things in development, lots of ideas bouncing around, and the end-product being completely different than even designs from the last month!

So... I meant nothing personal. I was surprised though that information of this nature (be it true or rumor) hadn't bounced around the other usual places. Not that I would have believed it if 10 people told me  But still juicy info for an anticipated product like this would (and did) catch attention.



MrBoylan said:


> As for the increased storage capacity of the 722 vs. the 622, that came from an internal DISH fact sheet on the ViP722 with a rev date of 6/26/07. It did not specifically state whether any of that 55 hours of HD recording space would be dedicated to VOD, but from the wording/presentation of the info, that did not seem to be the case.


This one I still doubt, but for different reasons. More recording space for customers would be great! But it flies in the face of the VOD features that Dish wants to enhance as the current unit doesn't have enough reserved storage to accomodate any HD VOD. That's why we all kind of figured most (or all) of the additional space on a 722 would be for VOD purposes.

It would be a pleasant surprise though.



MrBoylan said:


> We shall see whether E* actually meets the promised prices/dates, but the facts themselves were approved by the DISH guys before I posted them.


That last part surprises me too... that Dish would approve release of information for an article before they issued their own public statement. Rumors and leaks are one thing.. but usually companies have an announcement time where they make their official release statement... and do not approve other publicity prior to that.

In any event... I'm still hoping the price for the external drive fee drops by the time they announce the feature... but appreciate the scoop on the info.


----------



## James Long

MrBoylan said:


> We shall see whether E* actually meets the promised prices/dates, but the facts themselves were approved by the DISH guys before I posted them.


There is always wishful thinking. It's probably better to stay in denial.
Certainly a lot less depressing than looking at a $40 "feature fee". :grin:


----------



## Ron Barry

MrBoylan said:


> Hey, thanks for the vote of confidence!  The information came straight from DISH Network's corporate communications group from a conversation I had with them at a press-only event last week. And most of the details (including pricing and release date) were later confirmed (yesterday) by an admin named Scott over on that *other* DISH discussion forum from independent conversations he had with the E* people (I suppose it would be in poor taste to provide a link to other forums so I will not do that).
> 
> As for the increased storage capacity of the 722 vs. the 622, that came from an internal DISH fact sheet on the ViP722 with a rev date of 6/26/07. It did not specifically state whether any of that 55 hours of HD recording space would be dedicated to VOD, but from the wording/presentation of the info, that did not seem to be the case.
> 
> We shall see whether E* actually meets the promised prices/dates, but the facts themselves were approved by the DISH guys before I posted them.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Chris


:welcome_s Chris

Thanks for dropping by Chris to clarify your article and how your information was obtained. Much appreciated. Ofcourse we will have to wait until these features appear, but very well done article and based on how your information was obtained it adds a lot of crediability to the information in my eyes. Kudos!


----------



## MrBoylan

Ron Barry said:


> :welcome_s Chris
> 
> Thanks for dropping by Chris to clarify your article and how your information was obtained. Much appreciated. Ofcourse we will have to wait until these features appear, but very well done article and based on how your information was obtained it adds a lot of crediability to the information in my eyes. Kudos!


Thanks. Didn't know when I wrote it that it would cause such a stir but I'll tell you this - hearing about the HD service upgrades (new channels), the 622 and 722 PVRs with *three* built-in tuners, and the external hard drive support got me pretty excited about checking out DISH Network. The DISH guy is coming next Thursday to hook this strictly-over-the-air-HD guy up with satellite TV... I may never leave the house again. 

Later,

-Chris


----------



## Ron Barry

Cool.. Would really be interested in hearing your thoughts after you have had some time to play with it. If you run into things that don't not make sense, we have an excellent support forum with some good stickies at the top to help the first time user. Personally I really like my 622s and find them to meet my needs big time. IT appears that over the next 6 months things are going to get a lot more exciting and I am personally looking forward to it. Lots of exciting things on the horizon for sure.


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## cornflakes

I wonder if you can share the recorded shows between receivers in the same household, whether that means if we need to do a hardware box swapout we can transfer all our shows onto the external drive, then reload them back into the replacement unit.


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## MarkoC

cornflakes said:


> I wonder if you can share the recorded shows between receivers in the same household, whether that means if we need to do a hardware box swapout we can transfer all our shows onto the external drive, then reload them back into the replacement unit.


It sounds like the transfer feature is only one-way, from the reciever to the external drive.


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## cornflakes

MarkoC said:


> It sounds like the transfer feature is only one-way, from the reciever to the external drive.


In the article it says:

# Q: With the upgrade, can you record directly onto the external HDD?
A: No, recordings can be made to the internal HDD only, then may be moved to the external HDD. Recordings can be played back directly from an external HDD or transferred from external HDD to internal HDD.

So according to the article you can transfer back to the internal HDD.


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## MrBoylan

cornflakes said:


> In the article it says:
> 
> # Q: With the upgrade, can you record directly onto the external HDD?
> A: No, recordings can be made to the internal HDD only, then may be moved to the external HDD. Recordings can be played back directly from an external HDD or transferred from external HDD to internal HDD.
> 
> So according to the article you can transfer back to the internal HDD.


Yes, two-way and shareable among different receivers in the same household. You can't "copy" programs around, you can only move them from device to device (program exists only in one place at a time). And, again, only within the same account/household.

So you can move them from the internal HDD of a 622 in one room to the eHDD, then connect that eHDD to a 722 in another room and either a.) watch it directly from the eHDD or b.)transfer it over to the internal HDD of the 722 and watch it there.

Or if you upgrade from a 622 to a 722, you can dump everything off the 622 to the eHDD and onto the 722 for an easy upgrade (that's the theory anyway). I plan to test that some time on or after August 15th.

-CB


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## Stewart Vernon

I'm curious as to how fast the transfer will be from ViP to external drive (or vice-versa). I wonder if this is the sort of thing you would schedule for overnight or if it is something that would be fast enough to do "while you wait"?

I know how fast it could be, given USB transfer rates and a guess on the amount of space used per SD or HD program... but am not sure the theoretical speed will be the realistic speed supported.


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## Stewart Vernon

As I understand it, if you pay the enabling fee you would then be able to hook an external drive to your 622 and move things back and forth. If you have another 622 elsewhere, you could hook that same drive to it and do the same.

Basically an all-house solution.

Ok... but since this is something that needs to be enabled, I assume when you call to order the feature they will have to send a "hit" to your receivers to enable this feature, right?

So... what happens if you pay now and enable your 622 for this feature... then 6 months from now you add another 622 to your configuration. Will the new receiver automatically get the same "hit" to enable it? Or will you have to pay again since it wasn't in the house at the time?

I'm just curious how they would enable this feature after-the-fact for receivers that were not on the account at the time you originally enabled the feature.

Just speculating out loud, but this sounds like a potential snag for the feature.


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## P Smith

If you look through the smoke and mirror you will see just a money - "enabling fee". No 'hit', nothing.


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## P Smith

HDMe said:


> I'm curious as to how fast the transfer will be from ViP to external drive (or vice-versa). I wonder if this is the sort of thing you would schedule for overnight or if it is something that would be fast enough to do "while you wait"?
> 
> I know how fast it could be, given USB transfer rates and a guess on the amount of space used per SD or HD program... but am not sure the theoretical speed will be the realistic speed supported.


Rate is 20 min for transfer 1hr of HD content.


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## rocky01

James Long said:


> There is always wishful thinking. ... Certainly a lot less depressing than looking at a $40 "feature fee". :grin:


You said it! Let's try and keep value added in the equation guys for goodness sakes. Sheesh.

(Is that 18 months up yet ... and just how many channels in HD did you say FIOS has right now?)


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## Stewart Vernon

P Smith said:


> If you look through the smoke and mirror you will see just a money - "enabling fee". No 'hit', nothing.


Not quite. They have to do something to the software, otherwise there would be nothing requiring you to pay. And they can't make all of us pay unless we want the feature. So when you call and pay, they have to do something to enable the feature for your account/receivers. I'm just speculating/curious on how this will be handled if you add more compatible receivers after-the-fact.


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## shortspark

HDMe said:


> I'm curious as to how fast the transfer will be from ViP to external drive (or vice-versa). I wonder if this is the sort of thing you would schedule for overnight or if it is something that would be fast enough to do "while you wait"?
> 
> I know how fast it could be, given USB transfer rates and a guess on the amount of space used per SD or HD program... but am not sure the theoretical speed will be the realistic speed supported.


The Pocketdish is basically an external hard drive. I download to the PD from the 622 via USB. A movie (non HD of course since the PD does not support HD) takes about 10-12 minutes. In comparison, audio only files such as on Sirius radio channels is much shorter - as one would expect with no video. For example, I record an entire 3 hour long opera broadcast over Sirius and download the whole thing to the PD in about 5 minutes. I believe a dedicated external hard drive will give at least these speeds to the Pocketdish if not better.


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## James Long

HDMe said:


> I wonder if this is the sort of thing you would schedule for overnight or if it is something that would be fast enough to do "while you wait"?


"While you wait" is a moving target - you could wait all night. 



HDMe said:


> So... what happens if you pay now and enable your 622 for this feature... then 6 months from now you add another 622 to your configuration.


Think of it as subscribing to "The USB HD Channel". As you replace and add receivers they get the same channels as you subscribe to on your other receivers (limited only by the type of receiver and your wiring). The one time activation on your account should simply carry over.


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## P Smith

shortspark said:


> The Pocketdish is basically an external hard drive. I download to the PD from the 622 via USB. A movie (non HD of course since the PD does not support HD) takes about 10-12 minutes. In comparison, audio only files such as on Sirius radio channels is much shorter - as one would expect with no video. For example, I record an entire 3 hour long opera broadcast over Sirius and download the whole thing to the PD in about 5 minutes. I believe a dedicated external hard drive will give at least these speeds to the Pocketdish if not better.


See post #184.
Or watch and listen here.


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## Stewart Vernon

James Long said:


> "While you wait" is a moving target - you could wait all night.


Hadn't thought about it that way.. but you're right. Sounds like if I'm archiving more than one show, especially if it is a movie, it will be something best done overnight or while I'm fixing dinner or something that has me occupied elsewhere.



James Long said:


> Think of it as subscribing to "The USB HD Channel". As you replace and add receivers they get the same channels as you subscribe to on your other receivers (limited only by the type of receiver and your wiring). The one time activation on your account should simply carry over.


Ok, that makes sense. So once you pay, this would always be in the stream, so to speak, for you as you add/subtract compatible receivers they would come online.

Sounds like this will mean that if you need your ViP replaced, you'd have to offload all your programs onto the external drive (if you want to keep them) then activate your new receiver & deactivate your old one, then move everything back to the new receiver.

The ability to copy receiver to receiver won't help when replacing receivers unless they will allow you to temporarily have both receivers active on the account.


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## James Long

HDMe said:


> The ability to copy receiver to receiver won't help when replacing receivers unless they will allow you to temporarily have both receivers active on the account.


Just work ahead. Move all your programs off. Replace the receiver activating the new one. Move want you want easily available to the new receiver (or leave it archived and play from the USB). Only one receiver needs to be active.


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## shortspark

I wonder. When enabled, can we download a movie from the 622 to a pen drive (USB flash)? If so, that would solve a lot of portability problems and I'm thinking I could do this: download to a high capacity pen drive, insert it to my Pocketdish and then hook up the PD to any tv you want anywhere to play the contents of the pen drive.

If we can not download to a flash drive, I think one of the smaller, portable hard drives might work instead IF they are compatible with the Pocketdish. Anyone know?


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## harsh

I would expect that the USB hard drive portability would somehow be connected with DishComm.

PocketDish is a different situation because it is download only and limited to non-DRM SD downloads.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> Move want you want easily available to the new receiver (or leave it archived and play from the USB). Only one receiver needs to be active.


I'm speculating that if the receiver that recorded the program is no longer connected, that the program will not play.


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## James Long

shortspark said:


> I wonder. When enabled, can we download a movie from the 622 to a pen drive (USB flash)? If so, that would solve a lot of portability problems and I'm thinking I could do this: download to a high capacity pen drive, insert it to my Pocketdish and then hook up the PD to any tv you want anywhere to play the contents of the pen drive.
> 
> If we can not download to a flash drive, I think one of the smaller, portable hard drives might work instead IF they are compatible with the Pocketdish. Anyone know?


Compatible with Pocketdish isn't the direction to follow. If you can find a flash drive that looks like a standard USB hard drive to a 622 that can be formatted and treated as a standard USB hard drive it could work as a mini drive. (Unless there is some hard coded "minimum capacity" that E* has not told us about.)

The part of your plan of where you take the pen drive is limited. The files that the 622 saves on external USB cannot be freely played on just any device ... they can only be played on other E* receivers on the same account. So even if it is a full 750GB USB hard drive you won't be able to load it up and take it to "any TV" or even "any 622". You will only be able to take it to other 622s/722s on your account. (And other ViP receivers on your account when they receive external HD support.)

I don't recall PocketDishes having external USB HD support. They download their content via USB but I don't believe they can access an external drive. If that function is added E* would have to have a way of tying the PocketDish to the account as well as the receivers.



harsh said:


> I'm speculating that if the receiver that recorded the program is no longer connected, that the program will not play.


I believe your speculation is incorrect. The information we have so far is that it will be enabled for all receivers on your account and that content can be moved between receivers. The second receiver may not even know the first receiver has been disabled, let alone disable replay of events simply because they were recorded on another receiver on the account.


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## lakebum431

harsh said:


> I'm speculating that if the receiver that recorded the program is no longer connected, that the program will not play.


That doesn't make any sense, because then how would you play it on another box on your account. The recordings are going to be tied to the account not the receiver.


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## P Smith

James Long said:


> <..>I don't recall PocketDishes having external USB HD support. They download their content via USB but I don't believe they can access an external drive. If that function is added E* would have to have a way of tying the PocketDish to the account as well as the receivers.
> <...>.


Weak memory ?  - kidding man ! take it EASY !

PD have second USB port "R" what is working as a host; connect any USB drive and play video, watch pictures, listen music.

In case of future disput of believing - *I'm holding the PD in my hands right now*.


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## shortspark

P Smith said:


> Weak memory ?
> 
> PD have second USB port "R" what is working as a host; connect any USB drive and play video, watch pictures, listen music.
> 
> In case of future disput of believing - I'm holding the PD in my hands right now.


Yes, that is correct. And I do it all the time. I drag and drop all my music files (and photos) to several pen drives I have rather than download these files to the PD, which I save only for movies and Sirius broadcasts I download from the 622. The PD will of course accept direct transfer of MP3 and jpeg but I find it better to free up the space on the hard drive and save the PD only for movies. The pen drive then goes to the second USB port on the PD you spoke of, reads and displays the contents and you play what you want to off of the portable drive. I have dedicated pen drives up to 4g for various genres of music and photos extracted by date and subject. It makes sorting as easy as simply marking the pen drive.

This is why I mentioned earlier that if the 622 will (some day) download to an external drive, why would it not to a pen drive? I understand there is a difference between a mechanical, external hard drive and a flash operated drive but if it is indeed possible then the PD can in turn decode it and play it on its own screen and/or transfer it to any tv. This ability to take contents from the 622 hard drive and take those contents anywhere is at the present time unique only to the Pocketdish.

I think James Long is saying that the PD may not be able to access the contents of a portable hard drive - I have not tried that so I don't know either. However, the PD can certainly access the contents of a USB pen drive. So the question is really in two parts: will the 622 be able to download to any external drive, be it hard disk or flash operated. If the answer is yes to hard disk but no to flash (probably the case), then the second question regarding this portability issue is can the Pocketdish extract the contents off an external hard drive the way it does a flash drive?

I guess everything is mute anyway until we get the software in the 622 to allow for external storage. Once that happens, I'm sure someone will find a way to take the contents from that storage and play it anytime, anywhere they want to. I'm just trying to speculate if the unique interface the PD has with the 622 (among other E* receivers) can play a role in this somehow.


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## ChuckA

My best guess is that you will be able to use your pen drive to act as an external HDD to the 622. However, I doubt that you will be able to use that pen drive with the PD. You can use it with the 622 to playback the program but not the PD. As I said, this is of course just a guess since we don't really know yet.


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## James Long

P Smith said:


> Weak memory ?
> 
> PD have second USB port "R" what is working as a host; connect any USB drive and play video, watch pictures, listen music.
> 
> In case of future disput of believing - I'm holding the PD in my hands right now.


Thanks for the typically rude response.

I don't happen to have a Pocket Dish, so I have to go from my reading on the subject. The remainder of my comments still apply ... whether or not E* will have some way of allowing a PD to play back a USB drive locked to an account remains a question.


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## P Smith

If you will watch and listen that video presentation - see post #189, you'll know an answer to your question: will 622 works with USB flash drive ?

*PD works with external flash drive and HDD enclosure without problem, no needs to guess*.

I'm willing bet a lot - many functions of 622 SW serving PD used for support ESD; I see only a couple minor changes - clear up HD transfer and move back from ESD to internal HDD plus famous DRM implementation.

To JL - you found black cat in dark room what wasn't there.


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## harsh

James Long said:


> The second receiver may not even know the first receiver has been disabled, let alone disable replay of events simply because they were recorded on another receiver on the account.


I'm thinking that this may all work through DishComm and the recording DVR will have to offer up a key to play the recording. Absent the recording DVR, it would not play in my scenario.

Someone should know one way or the other in about three weeks.


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## James Long

I sure hope it doesn't authenticate through DishCOMM! There are more ways of DishCOMM not working than making it work (such as using power filters and UPSs to protect your equipment - even some power strips kill DishCOMM!).

The easier way is to do it through an encryption key, similar to the satellite channels although not something that one would want to change from month to month.


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## malefactor

Not to troll, but more directed at the dish guys watching:

$40? To deliver a trivial feature about a year late? So badly implemented that I have to manually transfer files back and forth?

No thanks. I've already learned to live within the bounds of the box's capacity (which is significantly down from my 400 gig dtivo). I don't need another thing to "manage" (movement of files); this is the point of a DVR, after all--set it and then watch TV on my terms.


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## James Long

malefactor said:


> So badly implemented that I have to manually transfer files back and forth?


Isn't it hard to judge an implementation that you have not used? Have you even seen it used?

Unlike D*'s method (an external SATA hard drive that is completely separate from the drive inside the unit requiring timers to be set up for each connected hard drive) the E* method is designed as an archive.

The normal hard drive remains active for the day to day recording and use. The USB drive will be there for programs that one just doesn't want to delete. Personally, I would not want new recordings to automagically be recorded to an external drive. Most of my stuff is viewed and deleted. Being able to pick and choose what is "saved forever" on the USB drive is good design.

The ability to return content to the main drive is nice ... especially as one's library grows. Perhaps buy a USB drive for each series you want to keep? Being able to pull the content back to the main drive allows you to move content to a new USB drive should your desires change. Yet it is not required. Trade show demos show programs played directly from external storage ... so only one transfer is needed ... the choice to archive to a USB drive instead of keeping the program on the main drive.

I don't like $40 but I don't consider this feature trivial nor a year late.


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## AzLarry

I'm a new Dish subscriber with an install scheduled for next month. My setup is going to be a 622 and 222 with 2 HD and 2 SD TV's. I see that the 222 receiver has a USB port (sorry, I can't post the link to the official 222 specs yet!). 

Is it possible to record programs on the 622, transfer to the external USB drive, and then play the recordings on the 222 ? I did some searches, but didn't find any mention if this was possible or not.

If not, I'm thinking I'll need to get a second 622 if I want to be able to watch recorded HD programs on both HDTV's. If this works, it would save me the hassle of trying to get another 622 at the time of install, and paying for a second DVR fee. The only hassle would be to move the external USB drive between HDTV's.

Thanks!


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## P Smith

Doesn't work now, could be next promise from Dish.


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## Stewart Vernon

AzLarry said:


> If this works, it would save me the hassle of trying to get another 622 at the time of install, and paying for a second DVR fee. The only hassle would be to move the external USB drive between HDTV's.


Supposedly support for ViP211 and external hard drives is coming later in the year, so I would be surprised if the 222 did not get similar support.

However, the rumor mill (and quite frankly logic as well) says that enabling this feature for a ViP211/222 would likely result in a charge of a DVR fee per month to use with those receivers so you probably wouldn't dodge a DVR fee that way.


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## HDdude24

HDMe said:


> Supposedly support for ViP211 and external hard drives is coming later in the year, so I would be surprised if the 222 did not get similar support.
> 
> However, the rumor mill (and quite frankly logic as well) says that enabling this feature for a ViP211/222 would likely result in a charge of a DVR fee per month to use with those receivers so you probably wouldn't dodge a DVR fee that way.


I was wondering what those USB ports are for!


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## AzLarry

Thanks for the replies.

I guess I can understand a fee to enable the 222 to play back recorded content, but unless the 222 can record to the external drive, I would rather have another 622 for the same DVR fee.

It probably shouldn't be as high as a full DVR fee if it can't record. On the other hand, they're charging $40 just to be able to transfer shows to the external drive in the first place, so maybe the $40 could be in place of a monthly fee to watch the 622 recorded content on the 222 receiver.


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## James Long

The expectation is that the 211 and 222 will be able to record. How well will that work? Personally I'd go for the 622 which WILL record today! (Although when external drives are released for the 211/222 actual performance may change my opinion.)


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## Stewart Vernon

For the ViP622 we have been told that you cannot record to the external drive, but once you move content to it you can watch that content from the drive.

I assume this will only be one stream from the external drive (as opposed to 2 from the internal drive in dual mode) possible to watch... so a ViP211 would be fine, but a ViP222 may not be able to function in dual mode watching 2 streams simultaneously. This would mean a ViP622 would be much better to have than a ViP222 if you wanted DVR playback in dual mode.

As for recording... IF 2 stream playback is a stretch, then I would think 2 stream recording would similarly be a no go... so again, a ViP622 would be a better option than a ViP222 + External drive for recording purposes.

Honestly, I can't see using an external drive to "enhance" a ViP211/222 as a pseudo-DVR being that attractive. The ability to watch recordings you made from your ViP622 in another room of the house via your ViP211/222 would be attractive.. but I would think if you wanted to record in multiple rooms you'd rather have a DVR in those rooms.


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## Bagman

James Long

I recall seeing a post from you with your expectation of HD recording time versus Gig of storage with the 622 External drive. I looked for the post but am not very good at search, so I apologise in advance. Can you re-post? Also, this weekend there are a number of sales for external drives and this is a back-to-school tax free weekend for GA, so I wanted to take advantage. Other than USB 2.0 are there any constraints on the external drive, ie SATA, eSATA, that you guys are aware of; do you have any recommendations?


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## Ron Barry

Well I am not James but I will pipe up.... The only thing mentioned regarding External USB support that I am aware of is that it is expected to release with a 750GB limit. I have said it a number of times, I would be very cautious at getting any drive before this feature is released but if you feel the need I would suggest going with something less than 750GB and a major brand. The basic external USB drive. Of course, there is always a risk doing this but fall back plan can always be that if it did not meet the specs that one can use it for a PC back up drive.


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## Stewart Vernon

I suppose another option to throw on the table... if you can buy a good deal on an external drive from a local store (like Best Buy for example) and if they allow returns for unopened product more than a couple of weeks out... you could potentially buy at a sale now, but leave the box sealed and wait a couple of weeks. If the feature gets enabled with caveats of drives not-supported then you would be able to return the unopened drive for a refund maybe.

Otherwise, I'm in the wait-and-see camp waiting to see what will be announced when the feature goes live.


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## shortspark

I will wait and see also. The prices of these external drives are coming down all the time so I can't see buying one now, even at a sale price, unless it can be used for your PC. I have a WD Pocket external drive I have hooked up to the PC right now and if and when we get the 622 USB enabled I will experiment with it. If it works well I will buy a dedicated drive just for this purpose. I suspect there will be some bugs to be worked out initially and I also believe some brands of drives will work much better with the receiver than others. I sure would not want to spend any money now simply in anticipation of what might be and what might work best.


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## MrBoylan

MrBoylan said:


> ...shareable among different receivers in the same household.


Friends, Satellite Lovers, Countrymen, lend me your ears,

Unfortunately DISH has modified its plans slightly in this regard...

I just heard from my DISH contact that the external HDD feature is going to be locked per box, not per household (at least in its first release). If you record on one DVR, and transfer the programs to an external HDD, any attempt to hook up that HDD to a different DVR (even on the same account) "may result in loss of content." That's a quote from E* Corporate Communications.

This may change at some point in the future but that's the way it's going to be in its initial cut.

The good news is no word on any price increases, and no announced limit on the number of HDDs you can use with any one DVR. So this really only affects those with more than one DVR per household.

Regards,

-Chris


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## James Long

The original description of the feature was usable on one receiver with the potential of sharing content within an account later on. It seems that the plan is still on track.

Good to see a warning about using one drive on multiple receivers ... hopefully E* is just playing it safe until they can guarantee it will work and not facing any serious problems with the feature.


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## dfergie

Please do not contact dish if you receive this upgrade L4.41 early until the 15th... Thank You!


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## Ron Barry

MrBoylan said:


> Friends, Satellite Lovers, Countrymen, lend me your ears,
> 
> Unfortunately DISH has modified its plans slightly in this regard...
> 
> I just heard from my DISH contact that the external HDD feature is going to be locked per box, not per household (at least in its first release). If you record on one DVR, and transfer the programs to an external HDD, any attempt to hook up that HDD to a different DVR (even on the same account) "may result in loss of content." That's a quote from E* Corporate Communications.
> 
> This may change at some point in the future but that's the way it's going to be in its initial cut.
> 
> The good news is no word on any price increases, and no announced limit on the number of HDDs you can use with any one DVR. So this really only affects those with more than one DVR per household.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Chris


Thanks Chris for the update... Sorry to hear it and hopefully things change again before the rollout but if not, USB external support will still be a nice feature to have.

dfergie thanks for the warning. Since tommorrow is the rumored day USB will roll out but not activatable to the 15th is suppose to happen, things might get exciting.


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## dfergie

Again, the Dish Csr's will be like Sgt Shultz(Hogans Heroes) until the 15th, please give um a chance to get their info then and... then begin to slam them... (Just trying to spread the word)


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## koralis

MrBoylan said:


> The good news is no word on any price increases, and no announced limit on the number of HDDs you can use with any one DVR. So this really only affects those with more than one DVR per household.


Which means what for price? Presumed $40? $20?


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## Frank Monroe

What a shame. I was waiting on this update so that I can replace my 622 with an HDMI port that works. Oh well


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## James Long

As noted, the multiple machine feature will work eventually. Patience is a virtue for an E* subscriber!


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