# Will this work? About to pull the trigger...



## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

This is my first post here, please be gentle with me! :grin: And I'm sorry it's so long. :shrug:

While this sounds general, my big questions are about the 622/722 DVRs, which is why I put this here. If a moderator disagrees with this, feel free to move it.

I've been lurking here for a year, reading and researching a lot, and I'm in "Analysis Paralysis!" I'm so confused, with all of the conflicting information I've found, but I think I might finally be figuring it out. If any of my assumptions or statements below are wrong, please let me know before I pull the trigger and start service. I currently have cable, which is adequate for most of my needs, but my cable provider won't give me a 1,000 mile spool of cable to pay out behind my motorhome. But the motorhome does have a top of the line in-motion Trac-King 9762-LP dome by King-Dome. It is capable of picking up DishNetwork satellites at 61, 110, 119, and 148, although it can only "see" one at a time, but can relatively quickly move from one to the other. (Yes, I know this is an issue if recording or watching two shows, and they are not on the same bird. I guess I have to live with that.)

I'm looking at Dish, rather than DirecTV, because I like the DVR equipment better (especially the EHD and two TV support) and because the dome cannot get the newest HD channels from DirectTV, and it can't get the old style HD channels from DirecTV without spending over $300 for a dish adapter upgrade.

My main goal is to have two DVRs in the house and one in the motorhome. Before I go on a trip, I want to copy a handful of interesting shows from the home DVRs onto the motorhome DVR. I don't want to take either DVR from the house into the motorhome, because I want them to still be at home and recording shows while we are gone. We take many short trips during the summer, and this copying could happen as aften as once a week. If this can't be done (legally) then this is a deal breaker right here.

My understanding with the external hard drive is you get three moves, at least until they fully roll out the household codes and allow unlimited moves within DVRs on one account. So, I'm hoping I can:
Plug EHD into living room DVR
Copy a few shows onto EHD
Plug EHD into bedroom DVR (move: 1)
Copy a few more shows onto EHD
Plug EHD into motorhome DVR (move: 2)
Copy shows from EHD to DVR
Reformat the drive to restore the move count: lather, rinse and repeat indefinitely...
Will this work, or am I missing something? When copying shows onto the EHD, do they remain on the original DVR, resulting in a true copy operation? Or are they automatically removed from the original DVR, making it a move rather than a copy? If It can only do moves, then I have to figure out a way to restore unwatched shows back onto the original DVR at the end of a trip without overflowing the move counter. (Got any suggestions?)

In the house, the living room DVR (a Vip722) will be hooked up to a HD plasma screen through a surround sound receiver, probably using component video and optical audio. The bedroom DVR (probably another Vip722, but could be a 622) will be hooked up directly to a HD CRT TV set. I plan on hooking the TV2 output from each DVR to the opposite TV using composite or S-video, so that on occasion we can watch something recorded on the other DVR, albeit in SD. If we want to watch it in HD, I guess we'll have to sneaker-net it with the EHD. Any potential pitfalls in this scheme? Will the two TV2 RF remotes conflict with each other, or is there a way to set them to different frequencies? These cross-connect SD cables are not in place yet, any suggestions on a good quality, yet reasonably priced way to do this? (Probably up to 50 feet of wire between them.) Or am I making too much of it, and should just use RF coax?

In the motorhome, a Vip622 (maybe a 722?) will be hooked up to a HD LCD screeen, with the SD CRT TV in the bedroom connected to the TV2 output using RF coax cable already in place. We rarely watch the bedroom TV, so using the RF modulator to drive it will be acceptable. It would be very difficult to run new audio and composite or S-video cables, and it's just not worth the effort for that set.

I plan to sign up for locals, AT250 and DishHD Essentials. I guess I will need to use OTA to get local HDs for now, until they become available in Buffalo. So what will the install be like to get these channels connected to two 622/722s in dual tuner mode (total of four tuners)? How many dishes will I likely need? (I guess I can't use a Dish1000, given how far East I am.) How many cables need to run into the house, and how many cables need to run to each DVR location? I'm trying to get an idea of what I'm getting into, and I want to be able to talk intelligently to the salesman and installer when it comes to that point. I'm assuming that with what I want to do, it won't be a standard free installation, right?

Thank you for reading this far! I would appreciate any comments, and would especially appreciate any corrections to my assumptions. I don't want to make an expensive mistake!


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

ShapeShifter said:


> So, I'm hoping I can:
> Plug EHD into living room DVR
> Copy a few shows onto EHD
> Plug EHD into bedroom DVR (move: 1)
> ...


Yes


ShapeShifter said:


> When copying shows onto the EHD, do they remain on the original DVR, resulting in a true copy operation?


No, it is a transfer operation...they are either on the DVR HDD or the EHDD, but not both, however, once the EHDD is at its final location, you can view the events directly from the EHDD, without transferring them back to the DVR HDD.



ShapeShifter said:


> Will the two TV2 RF remotes conflict with each other, or is there a way to set them to different frequencies?


Yes, there are enough frequencies available to avoid any conflict.


ShapeShifter said:


> should just use RF coax?


I'd suggest just using RG6 coax.

One dish antenna (receiving 110/119/129--If you cannot receive 129, you will need two dish antennas and receive 110/119/61.5) and your OTA antenna. Two downfeeds from the a single dish antenna, or three downfeeds from a dual dish antenna, and another downfeed from the OTA antenna (or you could diplex the OTA feed into one of your dish downfeeds), going into your house. Then, if you don't diplex OTA, you will have one SAT feed to each receiver + one OTA feed. The DishProPlus separator (included in box) will split the single SAT feed to dual SAT feeds behind your receivers.

Also, KIM, both HD outputs on the 622/722 are hot. You could connect one HDTV via HDMI, and another via Component, though both TV's would see the same programming.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

Thank you for your answers! :up:



Ken Green said:


> No, it is a transfer operation...they are either on the DVR HDD or the EHDD, but not both, however, once the EHDD is at its final location, you can view the events directly from the EHDD, without transferring them back to the DVR HDD.


Dang. Then I guess that means that if I don't end up watching the all of the shows while on the road, then I either have to go back out to the motorhome to watch it, or move them back onto the original DVRs when I get home. So it looks like the move count would be:
Plug into LR DVR, and copy shows to EHD
Plug into BR DVR and copy shows to EHD (move 1)
Plug into MH DVR and copy shows from EHD (move 2)
Hit the road, watch recordings, come home
Plug into MH DVR and copy unwatched shows to EHD (No move since same DVR as last time?)
Plug into LR DVR and restore unwatched shows from EHD (move 3)
Plug into BR DVR and restore unwatched shows EHD (move 4)
Sounds like I won't have enough moves to be able to do this, and the move counter will expire before I can complete step 7. Or will step 5 count as a move, making the move counter expire even sooner? Perhaps what I have to do is make sure everything I copy will fit onto the motorhome DVR at step 3, so that I can reformat the drive at step 4 while on the road. Then this should reset the three move counter and let me do the last three steps with a fresh move counter.

I think I'm getting the idea here, do I finally have it right?



> I'd suggest just using RG6 coax.


I think this is in response to connecting the TV2 output to the second sets in the house. Isn't that just channel 3 or 4 being output, and isn't RG6 overkill? (I still have a pile of old RG56 I could use up.  ) I also have a few spools of cat-6 UTP cable, I wonder if it's worth using that and some baluns for either the composite or S-video outputs. But then I would have to do something with the audio. Hmmm... using the RF modulator sounds a whole lot simpler... maybe I should just run some coax down the hall and test it before I decide I need to get more complicated. Maybe it will be good enough for the once or twice a month it would be used?



> One dish antenna (receiving 110/119/129--If you cannot receive 129, you will need two dish antennas and receive 110/119/61.5) and your OTA antenna. Two downfeeds from the a single dish antenna, or three downfeeds from a dual dish antenna, and another downfeed from the OTA antenna (or you could diplex the OTA feed into one of your dish downfeeds), going into your house. Then, if you don't diplex OTA, you will have one SAT feed to each receiver + one OTA feed. The DishProPlus separator (included in box) will split the single SAT feed to dual SAT feeds behind your receivers.


I'm far enough East that I think 129 may be an issue, so it sounds like I'll have two dishes and three cables coming in. Then I assume there will be some sort of switch in my basement or attic, with one satellite feed going to each DVR. Is there a downside to diplexing the OTA onto the satellite feed, perhaps loss of signal strength? I take it then that the single cable from the wall will go to the diplex splitter, with one branch going to the OTA input, and the other branch going to the DP+ separator with the two output branches going to the two tuner inputs.

The main reason for asking is everything (cable, ethernet, surround speaker wiring, phone, etc) terminates in wall plates with modular snap in fittings. I want to make sure I have enough open slots and appropriate fittings, as well as have enough holes drilled in the wall with pull strings in place to make the installation go smoothly. (I'm a bit anal about the way wires are run and terminated, and I want to make it easy for the installer to run them _my_ way!)

So I guess, just to be safe, I should plan on being able to have room and supplies for two coax fittings at each location. (That's in addition to whatever extra positions I will need to cross-connect the TV2 outputs to the opposite TVs.)



> Also, KIM, both HD outputs on the 622/722 are hot. You could connect one HDTV via HDMI, and another via Component, though both TV's would see the same programming.


That's a good point. I do have a 35 foot HDMI cable no longer used from a previous installation, which I could run down the hallway and use as a test. I'll have to think about it, however. Probably half the time that I would want to watch something on the "opposite" TV is because the other one is already in use. But for those times when the other one isn't in use, being able to watch the "other" DVR in high def might make the extra complecity worth it... Tough call, I'll have to think about it.

But at this time, I'm thinking of just doing RF between them. Can I run an RF line, put a two way bi-directional splitter/combiner on it, and connect them to the TV2 modulator output and TV tuner input on each end? That way, one DVR could send TV2 on channel 3 and it's mated TV pick up the other on channel 4, while the other DVR is sending TV2 on on channel 4 and it's mated TV is picking up the other on channel 3. Woudl this work? Or should I just run two unidectional coax lines between the two DVRs rather than trying to make one line bi-directional?

Again, thanks for all the help. My trigger finger is getting itchy and I want to pull that trigger!


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

one option...just have 2 EHD's, one for each of the HD DVR's that are in the home. then the only "moves" are from DVR1 to the motorhome dvr, and DVR2 to the motorhome dvr...just a thought


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

Ken Green said:


> If you cannot receive 129, you will need two dish antennas and receive 110/119/61.5) and your OTA antenna.


I just noticed that the neighbor across the street has two dishes on the SW corner of the house. One is pointed low to the horizon and looking significantly West (must be 110/119) and the other is pointed a little higher and a bit to the East (must be 61.5) I can only see the face of one of them, and it does say Dish, not Direct. So I guess that clinches it that I will have two dishes. Not a big thing, but I just have to figure out where to put them: the obvious place is on a roof that will be torn off in a few months for a new addition... this will take some planning.



puckwithahalo said:


> one option...just have 2 EHD's, one for each of the HD DVR's that are in the home. then the only "moves" are from DVR1 to the motorhome dvr, and DVR2 to the motorhome dvr...just a thought


Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner! :joy:

What an excellent idea! Each EHD would only ever see two DVRs, and I could copy stuff from home, watch it on the road, and when I get home and copy it back the EHD would be empty, which would reset the move counter (or allow formatting with no worrys about lost shows.)

That would even allow me to record something while on the road, and safely move it into the house without worrying about hitting the move limit. Nice!

It also lets me copy shows in parallel: I can be copying shows off of each DVR onto their dedicated EHD, and I won't have to wait for one to finish before I move the drive and do the other. It'll get me out the door twice as fast!

Thank you! :gott:


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

There are a few things coming that will help you out.

1. EHD household key
2. ViP211 DVR upgrade, scheduled for summer 2008
3. ViP211k, a bit smaller than the 211. Each has only 1 sat tuner, but you're already limited by your tracking dish. The remote is IR only, so you may need to set up a repeater to control it from the bedroom.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

BobaBird said:


> There are a few things coming that will help you out.
> 
> 1. EHD household key
> 2. ViP211 DVR upgrade, scheduled for summer 2008
> 3. ViP211k, a bit smaller than the 211. Each has only 1 sat tuner, but you're already limited by your tracking dish. The remote is IR only, so you may need to set up a repeater to control it from the bedroom.


That 211 could be interesting, especially if it's smaller. I don't have a lot of room to work with in the motorhome.

I could probably get by with the single tuner, as long as I still have a way to drive that second TV set. It's pretty rare that the rear set is used, and would be very rare that we would want them on two different channels.) I assume (there goes that word!) that I would be able to use component video to drive the front set, and also an RF modulator output to drive the rear set? Then the only issue to work out is the remote. (Is there an IR repeater that will back feed through the RF coax? It's really a PITA to pull new wires through the rig...)

Will the 211 support EHD out of the box, or will there be a delay before it is supported. (I seem to recall that the 612 has been out for a while, but is only now supporting EHD.)


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

211 isn't there yet, but its pretty much a sure thing that it will be, though no idea when.



> Thank you!


welcome


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

One more question on the 622/722... In the motorhome, if I'm in an area where I can't get satellite reception (under heavy tree cover, for example) will I still be able to play back recordings?

With my current cable box DVR, if I power it up when it's not hooked up to the cable, it tells me it's not authorized to do anything but be a doorstop. And if I unplug it from the cable but leave it powered up, it does it's impression of an inert brick after 24 hours pass with no cable contact.

So, will I be able to watch recordings even if I can't lock onto a satellite for a while?


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## ICBM99 (Apr 4, 2007)

I haven't tried it on my 722, but my old 510 DVR had no problems playing back recordings when not connected to the satellite.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> So, will I be able to watch recordings even if I can't lock onto a satellite for a while?


yes, you can use the dvr functions without satellite signal.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

ICBM99 said:


> I haven't tried it on my 722, but my old 510 DVR had no problems playing back recordings when not connected to the satellite.





puckwithahalo said:


> yes, you can use the dvr functions without satellite signal.


Cool! Thank you for all your help.

All these postive responses, it looks like I will be able to do exactly what I want. Finally! I've been researching on and off for a year. Now that I know what I want, I need to head back to my local dealer to see what it will all actually cost.

Thank you to all! :up:


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

Thank you everybody for your help.

I've just returned from my local retailer after pulling the trigger on this install. What I ended up with:
AT250 with locals and HD Essentials
Dish 500 plus a wing dish for 61.5
Vip722 for living room
Vip612 for bedroom
Vip612 for motorhome
I've got a ClubDish referral number from my cousin, and the installer will be here first thing Wednesday morning. :joy:

At first, I was planning on 722s for all three locations. Well, that got real expensive real fast. The first one is free, the second one is $199, and the third one is $499. :eek2:

He was suggesting 622s as slightly cheaper alternatives, but based on the trouble reports I've read on here, I said I didn't want them. :nono2: He was surprised by that, but after checking with his technicians they did confirm a high incidence of 622 issues. So, my time spent reading here has been worthwhile so I could dodge that potential bullet!

I spent an hour talking with the salesman and one of his technicians, drawing pictures of various setups and discussing options. From my initial set of requirements, the big thing I needed to do was compromise on the motorhome in that I couldn't watch two different things at once on the two TVs. That's not much of a compromise as we've never yet had them both on at the same time and tuned to different channels. By making that compromise, I was able to save about $500 in upgrade fees. Well worth it.

So, thanks to all for the information and advice! I really appreciate it. :righton:


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

*Update:* The install was today. Everything works, including the receiver in the motorhome, and the external hard drive. :righton:

Looking at the diagnostic counters, I do have a household key, that is the same on all three DVRs. When I first plugged in the EHD to the first DVR, I got the message that the drive needs to be formatted before use, as I expected. Then I tried this:
Plugged into bedroom DVR, archived some shows onto EHD.
Plugged into living room DVR, restored some shows from EHD, copied some others onto EHD.
Plugged into motorhome DVR, restored some from EHD, moved some to EHD.
Plugged into living room DVR, restored some shows.
Plugged into bedroom DVR, restored some shows.
At no time did I have the EHD empty (which is said to reset the move counter) and at no time did I get any messages about EHD moves. I think I've done enough moves to show that the household keys are working and that I don't have to worry about the three move limit. Cool! :glasses:

The only glitch was while setting up the motorhome receiver. The installer would only work on the house system, and left the last receiver for me to do the install in the motorhome. The install was easy enough, but when it got to the updating software screen (which says not to interrupt it) it stalled at about a quarter done. I let it sit there for a while (like 20 minutes) and nothing happened. I was worried that with a partial download the firmware would be corrupted. Finally, I noticed on the dome control panel that it lost track of the satellite. I reset the dome, it right away found the satellite, and the update proceeded where it left off with no further issues. Whew! :grin:

My only disappointment so far is that the USB port apparently doesn't have enough power to drive the little bus-powered pocket hard drive that I had handy for testing. But I dug out a powered USB hub, plugged that into the DVR and the drive into the hub, and all worked. So now that I know it works, and that I only need one drive instead of two (as discussed above) I need to order myself a nice big USB drive with its own power supply.

I'm a happy camper! 

Thank you everybody for your help and advice, I truly appreciate it! :bowdown:


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

yay  hehe, glad everything worked out for you. welcome aboard :lol:


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

ShapeShifter said:


> But I dug out a powered USB hub, plugged that into the DVR and the drive into the hub, and all worked. So now that I know it works, and that I only need one drive instead of two (as discussed above) I need to order myself a nice big USB drive with its own power supply.


Right now the supported limit it 750GB or below so I would suggest you stay below 750GB.


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## ShapeShifter (Apr 21, 2008)

Ron Barry said:


> Right now the supported limit it 750GB or below so I would suggest you stay below 750GB.


Big is relative... I just ordered a 500 GB drive, which is really big compared to the 75 GB pocket drive I used for testing.

I'm only going to use it as a sneakernet for transferring shows between DVRs, not long term archiving, so I won't need gobs of space. _(Famous last words... how long will that last? ) _


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