# Directv needs to fire their engineering staff



## Rob77 (Sep 24, 2007)

As I read around the site, there are many mentions of continuing problems with recordings, loss of material, bad software,slow channel changes, etc. It is time for a reality check.

Most people want a DEPENDABLE system that records, playbacks, has a program schedule that works, has a remote system that does not take forever to change etc.....just the basics.

While most people on this site are "geeks" and enjoy all the bells and whistles....which is fine.....but first the engineers need to get the basics right so the everyday functions are properly being performed.

Like other I have lost all my recordings, and my system takes forever to do anything. Yes, I like others, have done all the things like restart etc, but Directv continues to induce code into the system that is goofing up the total operation.

With so many good people looking for jobs, I would hope they would replace whoever is making all these changes and get an engineering staff that worries about getting it right.


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

How many people are there with no issues? Yes it is annoying that there are issues but as you can see in CE there is a constant effort to iron out all these kinks.


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## william8004 (Oct 6, 2006)

I hope you don't mean Earl.


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## roadrunner1782 (Sep 28, 2008)

What receivers do you have? The only one I have any issues with is my HR22-100 and it's only speed that is the problem on it. My HR20-700, R16-300, and H21-200 are all very reliable and fairly responsive!


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

First off.. Would you say the same to any company? Like say Microsoft? I am sure they have more issues on a per unit basis than DIrectv... 

What are the circumstances to you loosing all your recordings? That is an unusual event.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Name just about any electronics product and I'll show you a forum about it that's full of problem threads/posts.

By your logic, nobody would have a job (or we wouldn't have any electronics).


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Rob77 said:


> As I read around the site, there are many mentions of continuing problems with recordings, loss of material, bad software,slow channel changes, etc. It is time for a reality check.


 Let's discuss a little reality. Yes there are many who have problems. They post on forums all the time.

However, there are many more without those kinds of problems. I have three HR2x's that run just fine. It's rare to for me to have problems. I have four friends with HR2x's and they have little to no problems.

Have you read forums for the other service providers and their DVRs? I have and IMHO we have some of the best out there...IMO :grin:



> Most people want a DEPENDABLE system that records, playbacks, has a program schedule that works, has a remote system that does not take forever to change etc.....just the basics.
> 
> While most people on this site are "geeks" and enjoy all the bells and whistles....which is fine.....but first the engineers need to get the basics right so the everyday functions are properly being performed.


 You're absolutely right. Based on what I've read and experienced, for the majority of subs, DirecTV's receivers perform as promised.

Sure you, and I'm sure many others, will argue that there are plenty of examples of what I just typed being wrong. Keep in mind that you're going to find very few people posting because they have no problems. You won't many threads that say "Hey, everything is OK". 

People with issues go to the internet in search of answers. It no surprise that you find the vast majority of threads are people looking for help with issues. You can't extrapolate that to the majority of DirecTV subs.



> Like other I have lost all my recordings, and my system takes forever to do anything. Yes, I like others, have done all the things like restart etc, but Directv continues to induce code into the system that is goofing up the total operation.


 *Well then, you came to the right place.* Start a thread and describe your setup and issues and we'll help you figure it out. It's what we do. 



> With so many good people looking for jobs, I would hope they would replace whoever is making all these changes and get an engineering staff that worries about getting it right.


IMHO, you have no basis for a judgment such as this. That is unless you know the flow path of DirecTV's hardware.

I have to believe there is plenty going on behind the scenes that we aren't in on; information we're not privy to. Information that would make the overall direction make sense. Until DirecTV shares that info with us we can only guess and speculate as to what does and doesn't make sense&#8230;however, I've been known to be wrong before but logic leads me to this line of thought. 

My 2¢ FWIW. 

MIke


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

With something well in excess of 16,000,000 subscribers, if one tenth of one percent of the customers had significant issues that would represent 16,000 people with problems. If ten percent of them came to forums and complained that would represent 1600 people, which is probably representative of what we see in all of the DBS forums combined over a period of time.

Also, keep in mind that some percentage of problems are customer caused, either through improper do-it-yourself installations, or not operating the equipment in accordance with the instructions.

So, a company that gets it right 99.9% of the time is what you appear to be complaining about. Pretty demanding. Please name any company (other than the old regulated phone company, and maybe the electricity and water utilities in your city) that achieve that rate of success.


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## Juppers (Oct 26, 2006)

I would say there are a large number of people that have gotten used to the horrible performance of the receivers or don't have the HD DVRs. Yes, the current state of the "top of the line" receivers is horrible, and it has gotten worse instead of improved over the last few years. The have added new features that overshadow the patheticness of the units. Eventually other will catch up enough with sports and DirecTV will be ranked where they belong, near the bottom slightly above cable.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

I've had a receiver fail before is that the engineers problem? I've never had everything disappear before so it sounds like you have other issues. 

Would I like my DVR to be faster? Sure more speed is always better but a 2 second delay in something to me is really not worth getting upset over. I'm already wasting time watching tv what's 2 seconds more of wasting time.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I guess you havent used a cable DVR recently? My boss subscribed to Comcast, over my protests, and its a good thing she doesnt actually record much, or want any bells and whistles. I would go crazy having to use their DVR for any length of time. Ive got a fast HR20-700 and a slow HR22-100. Since both have the same software, Im more inclined to blame the manufacturer than the software engineers. As for bugs, if you had used the DVR from day one, you would realize that it has improved several fold since the first software incarnations. But, as you say, we are all geeks. I love my 2TB total capacity, 5 tuner setup, even if one of them is a little slow. Ive not lost any recordings that werent directly related to bad guide data supplied to Directv, so if you are experiencing those problems, I would suggest a service call, as there is definantly a problem with your system or that specific receiver.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

To be fair, 2 seconds adds up quickly if you're flipping between two channels. Like when you're keeping up with two different games on 'the sports leader'. So yeah, two seconds IS important.

If people aren't complaining that much about speed, it's because they've become accustomed to being annoyed. I remember boohooing about how slow the H20 (non-DVR) unit we got was compared to the Samsung IRD I used for years. But going back to it now in the spare bedroom, it's a lightning bolt compared to the HR series.

We may have one of the better all-around DVR products out there, but when the rest of the field stinks so bad, that's nothing to be proud of. Like when the DBS guys tout their superiority over cable. It doesn't take much to pass those guys by, just like (Godwin alert_!_) it doesn't take much to say you're nicer than Hitler.

Truth of the matter is they shouldn't be adding all these features (MRV, MediaShare, active channels, Scoreguide, Apps, etc) when the device is too slow to as a basic DVR_!_ They need to pull an iPhone and upgrade the hardware before they start rolling out the whizz-bang features.

Last, but most important, using the entire installed DirecTV base of 16m customers is not a valid comparison. Whittle it down to HD DVR users since that's where your problem devices are. Then extrapolate how many HD DVR users are actually registered on this website only, and have complained. I bet it's a fairly high number. Better yet, call up all the HD DVR owners and ask them if their device works well enough for them, or if it has problems that need to be addressed. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that 90% of them would kvetch about speed and crashes.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

I am annoyed with performance of my HR21 every time I turn it on. While light years ahead of most cable DVR's I suspect most people would be satisfied with DirecTV DVR's. I have had Ultimate TV DVR's with DirecTV service that had much faster guide operations and picture in picture. Also, I have had Dish network HD DVR's with fast guide operations. Certainly the 'wow' factor has never been there with my DirecTV HD DVR. I do give DirecTV credit for making it usable. Performance of my HR21 just was not acceptable when I got it in early 2008. When I subscribed to DirecTV the promise of the HDPC DVR was a leading factor and it seems the TIVO update is still off the radar.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

gitarzan said:


> While light years ahead of most cable DVR's


I can't speak to "most" cable DVRs, but I can talk to the DVR I have from Comcast, which I think is much more reliable than the R15 I had with DirecTV until last November.

On my DirecTV DVR, missed recordings, glitches and lockups on playback were all regular occurrances. These have never happened in the past 8 months on my Comcast DVR (with the exception of a missed recording due to a power failure). I don't even know how to do a "red button reset" on the Comcast box.

My R15 had three features which were better than what my Comcast DVR offers: (1) the R15 had a more sophisticated search feature, but since search with autorecord would try to record on channels I didn't get, its benefit was very limited; (2) the R15 had the ability to allow me to schedule are recording over the internet when I was away from home; (3) mark and delete, which allowed easier management of recordings, versus deleting shows one-by-one on the Comcast box.

But the Comcast DVR also has a lot of features that the R15 lacked: autoextending live recordings, a necessity for sports recordings; very fast scrolling; ability to record the same show on multiple channels; on-demand; dual live buffers.

I didn't realize. how much I would like on-demand and dual live buffers until I had them.

The only major changes I would make to the Comcast DVR is to allow addition of an external hard drive (which is really needed for extensive HD recording) and improvement of the search capabilities.

But even without those improvements, the Comcast DVR is light years ahead of my old R15, if for no other reasons than with the Comcast box I can schedule a recording and be confident that the show will record and I will be able to watch it without video or audio lockups or glitches.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Upstream said:


> I can't speak to "most" cable DVRs, but I can talk to the DVR I have from Comcast, which I think is much more reliable than the R15 I had with DirecTV until last November.
> 
> On my DirecTV DVR, missed recordings, glitches and lockups on playback were all regular occurrances. These have never happened in the past 8 months on my Comcast DVR (with the exception of a missed recording due to a power failure). I don't even know how to do a "red button reset" on the Comcast box.
> 
> ...


When I had Comcost, the dvr would show 50% full but then refuse to record because the box thought it was full. Comcost told me it was a glitch but they didn't know how to fix it. Sad.:nono2:


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> When I had Comcost, the dvr would show 50% full but then refuse to record because the box thought it it was full. Comcost told me it was a glitch but they didn't know how to fix it. Sad.:nono2:


Sounds familiar. :sure: :lol:


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

To the OP - I'm certainly not a fanboy, but I think DirecTV engineers have done a hulluva job for my 2 HR20-700 receivers. 

I was at my dad's place last month. He has a Tivo (I used to have 2 D* Tivo recivers). I'll take the HR20's any day over today's TiVo.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> Sounds familiar. :sure: :lol:


I had suspended my D* account when I moved to Oregon, since I was moving to an apt. After that Comcost dvr experience I racked my brain as to how I could get D* back.......I solved the problem. Goodbye Comcost cable. Now if I can only figure out how to get internet without Comcost here.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

If these HDDVRs were in their first years of developement, I would agree that they are great. It does take time to work out the kinks.

Unfortunately, they aren't in that position. These are at least 3 years in the making and there is NO valid excuse for the slowness issue to still exist. Nor is their a valid reason for the skip to end bug (feature?) to be still there. If the updates were making things better, it would be an indication of things moving in the right direction. But the last update slowed things back down from irritating to unacceptable.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Juppers said:


> I would say there are a large number of people that have gotten used to the horrible performance of the receivers or don't have the HD DVRs. Yes, the current state of the "top of the line" receivers is horrible, and it has gotten worse instead of improved over the last few years. The have added new features that overshadow the patheticness of the units. Eventually other will catch up enough with sports and DirecTV will be ranked where they belong, near the bottom slightly above cable.


So my HR20-700 is "horrible" but since I'm used to it so I don't notice?

My HR20-700 is faster then any TiVo I've owned.

My HR20-700 hasn't missed a recording in almost two years.

My HR20-700 does more then my TiVo ever did and does it well.

You say "people that have gotten used to the horrible performance of the receivers" and that sort of implies that people are incapable of independent thought; of blindly missing what's wrong. :shrug:

Well I'm here to tell you that there are plenty of people who can think for themselves. People who know exactly what they have and how well it works. 

Is the HR2x perfect? Absolutely not; however, the HR2x is far from "horrible". In the beginning I yearned to go back to TiVo. Now I can't find a reason to do so.

I defy you to find an online forum for any of the service providers that isn't filled with issues. The fact is you can't. :grin:

Wouldn't being ranked near the bottom slightly above cable still put them in second place? :scratchin

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> When I had Comcost, the dvr would show 50% full but then refuse to record because the box thought it was full. Comcost told me it was a glitch but they didn't know how to fix it. Sad.:nono2:


My friend at work with Comcast is limited to 20hr of HD. :eek2:

They told him they couldn't do anything about it. :nono2:

Mike


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## DFWHD (Feb 9, 2008)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> To the OP - I'm certainly not a fanboy, but I think DirecTV engineers have done a hulluva job for my 2 HR20-700 receivers.
> 
> I was at my dad's place last month. He has a Tivo (I used to have 2 D* Tivo recivers). I'll take the HR20's any day over today's TiVo.


Agreed 100%- The HR2X boxes are solid as far as I'm concerned. I've had experience with several providers over the years and by far D* service, hardware and software quality is the best I've experienced. Here is why I think so...

*D** - We had been with them for about 9 years with minimal issues if any really mentionable. I think the only time a tech came to the house was to bring us a new DVR when those came out back around 2002.

*VZ Fios* - When we upgraded our TVs to HD back in 2006 we dropped D* and picked up VZ Fios to get more HD programming - big mistake. In the 9 months we had Fios, we went through over 20 hardware swaps (literally 10 boxes were tried in one day and each one had some type of issue.) Fios crews were at our house at least once every couple of weeks and there was a truck on the street daily at someone's house. Our neighborhood had an outage that lasted through the entire Thanksgiving weekend in 2006 - not good when you live in the Dallas area and folks schedule the day around the Cowboys game.

*TWC* - When we moved in 2007 Fios was not available in the new place and ended up with TWC while the new place was being remodeled for a few months. TWC was absolute crap (IMO)- lots of hardware and programming issues, lousy / rude customer service and several missed appointments. I don't see how folks stand that service - thankfully we didn't have it that long.

*D** - We finally got D* hooked back up in Q4 2007 and have been very pleased ever since. While there have been a couple of hiccups since then, nothing that I would even consider to be anything like the problems had with Fios or TWC.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

BubblePuppy said:


> Personally I have to give the D* engineering/programming staff many accolades. The effort that they are putting in to make the "gear" top notch is commendable.
> How many companies spend so much effort to include users in the testing method, and listen to what the users have to say?
> *The iphone, Vista, Blackberry, etc, all have short comings. How long does it take for those short comings to be improved on? *The D* group work their butts off to make improvements every week. Some work, some don't.
> All I can say is that I am glad to be part of the testing group.





MicroBeta said:


> So my HR20-700 is "horrible" but since I'm used to it so I don't notice?
> 
> My HR20-700 is faster then any TiVo I've owned.
> 
> ...


Great post. I agree. I'm with D* as long as I am able to be.


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## rob316 (Jun 29, 2008)

MY HR21-100 and H21-200 run great, yes there may be minor bugs here and there but nothing to gripe about. I use to have Comcast, talk about buggy equiptment try their POS Moto boxes and you will be running back to D.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mertzen said:


> How many people are there with no issues? Yes it is annoying that there are issues but as you can see in CE there is a constant effort to iron out all these kinks.


Seems as if unless you participate in the CE program you can't enter that part of the forum. Something new. I tried for the first time after being assured that I would be breaking no rules by entering and was barred unless I decided to participate in the program.

Rich


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Seems as if unless you participate in the CE program you can't enter that part of the forum. Something new. I tried for the first time after being assured that I would be breaking no rules by entering and was barred unless I decided to participate in the program.
> 
> Rich


Here is the info to opt-in.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=159349

Mike


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

> Most people want a DEPENDABLE system


I completely agree with this part of your statement Rob, and it's why I have stayed with DIRECTV over the years.

I don't have the same car I had in 1997... not even the same manufacturer.
I don't have any of the TV's I had back then.
I don't live in the same house, have the same telephone service or internet provider.

The one thing that *is* the same in our house is DIRECTV. Although it might not be the best choice for some.. it is for our home.

Perhaps you could be more specific about the problems you are having. There are some here that will go out of their way to give a helping hand Rob. I am not having the problems you talk of. If I did, I would ask for help right here on DBSTalk.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Seems as if unless you participate in the CE program you can't enter that part of the forum. Something new. I tried for the first time after being assured that I would be breaking no rules by entering and was barred unless I decided to participate in the program.
> 
> Rich





MicroBeta said:


> Here is the info to opt-in.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=159349
> 
> Mike


We welcome new testers. Just make sure you opt in for the correct reasons, not to be the first for the newest and greatest. There is the possibility that your box can become a brick. CE'rs are in so that the D*tv experience becomes good for all D* customers.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

rob316 said:


> MY HR21-100 and H21-200 run great, yes there may be minor bugs here and there but nothing to gripe about. I use to have Comcast, talk about buggy equiptment try their POS Moto boxes and you will be running back to D.


Try a 20-700, you'll see a great difference from a great HR. You can get one on eBay.

While I agree with little that the TS has written in his original post, I do find it hard to believe that after three years D* hasn't come up with a better HR than the 20-700.

I have begun to think about purchasing 20-700s on eBay and replacing my 21s and my 23, which is annoying me to the point that I'm sorry I got the damn thing.

Rich


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## Rob77 (Sep 24, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> To be fair, 2 seconds adds up quickly if you're flipping between two channels. Like when you're keeping up with two different games on 'the sports leader'. So yeah, two seconds IS important.
> 
> If people aren't complaining that much about speed, it's because they've become accustomed to being annoyed. I remember boohooing about how slow the H20 (non-DVR) unit we got was compared to the Samsung IRD I used for years. But going back to it now in the spare bedroom, it's a lightning bolt compared to the HR series.
> 
> ...


You said it better then I did


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> Here is the info to opt-in.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=159349
> 
> Mike


Thanx for the link. I'm afraid to join in on the fun. I try to limit my time on the forum and I can just imagine how much time I'd spend on that part of the forum. I suppose I could join and just lurk, no?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> We welcome new testers. Just make sure you opt in for the correct reasons, not to be the first for the newest and greatest. There is the possibility that your box can become a brick. CE'rs are in so that the D*TV experience becomes good for all D* customers.


I've been asked to join by several members. I was involved in Beta testing of Macs years ago and we wrecked many of those fine computers. I'm far from being a Geek, sadly, I let the technology pass me by.

I'm one of those people that are satisfied with my nine HRs and my system. Even the 23 that is driving me nuts is working very well except for the remote problem. Aside from that I have no complaints.

The main thing that keeps me from joining is the time spent on the forum. I try to limit my time to a couple of hours a day and I'd be spending a lot more time on the forum were I to join. I've watched some members post numbers rocket to seemingly unreachable totals and I just don't want to get caught up in that kind of thing. And I would get caught up in it.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> So my HR20-700 is "horrible" but since I'm used to it so I don't notice?


That's the new line that, apparently, is supposed to explain why some of us are satisfied.



> My HR20-700 is faster then any TiVo I've owned.
> 
> My HR20-700 hasn't missed a recording in almost two years.
> 
> My HR20-700 does more then my TiVo ever did and does it well.


Agreed, but my five other HRs are not far behind. The 21-700s are nearly as good.



> You say "people that have gotten used to the horrible performance of the receivers" and that sort of implies that people are incapable of independent thought; of blindly missing what's wrong. :shrug:
> 
> Well I'm here to tell you that there are plenty of people who can think for themselves. People who know exactly what they have and how well it works.


While I think this is a subjective argument and probably unwinnable, I find it interesting that most posters that complain about the HRs don't have a viable device to compare them to.

I got pretty sick of changing hard drives constantly in TiVos and putting up with the noise they make (yeah, none of my HRs make any noise). I've heard nothing but bad things about the cable DVRs and FIOS is owned by Verizon and that one fact is enough to make me stay away from them. Dish? Nope. No Yes Network, no Rich. What else is there?

Anybody that doubts that I have a very stable system and silent HRs, etc., is welcome to come to my home and see for yourselves. I live in Central NJ, just a half hour from NYC and would be happy to prove my point. If you're in the neighborhood, just drop me a PM and I'll send you directions or a phone number. I don't work, don't have to, and I'm usually home.

Rich


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I've been asked to join by several members. I was involved in Beta testing of Macs years ago and we wrecked many of those fine computers. I'm far from being a Geek, sadly, I let the technology pass me by.
> 
> I'm one of those people that are satisfied with my nine HRs and my system. Even the 23 that is driving me nuts is working very well except for the remote problem. Aside from that I have no complaints.
> 
> ...


Your honesty is refreshing. Yes, there is more to life than Ce....I like your philosophy. Well balanced.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 21, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I got pretty sick of changing hard drives constantly in TiVos and putting up with the noise they make (yeah, none of my HRs make any noise).


Not sure what was going on with your setup, but what was causing your TiVos to both crash their drives and make so much noise? I have switched away from the DirecTiVos to HR2*'s, but I doubt I replaced their drives any more than I have the new ones - just to add space. The DirecTiVos were a little loud from drive chatter but setting the drive AAM to quiet helped that.

I'm generally pleased with my HR2* and seem relatively insulated from the legion of one off problems in the Issues threads. While I had many of the features in the HR2* CE on my DirecTiVos (SD and HD) *many* years ago, almost all of them had to be hacked in to get them. Getting a corporate development group and support infrastructure to match the speed and agility of "use at your own risk" effective open source hacker community is just impossible.

That being said, releasing a modern hardware and software platform (or what feels like a dozen thanks to the "brilliance" of a pick and choose/make your own DVR manufacturing process) missing critical user requested features is going to open you up to criticism.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

The HR series is a computer that they're making for well under $200 including software/licensing. I think cost is a much bigger factor than performance when they're selecting components.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

IMHO the only reason the OP is aware of all the Directv receivers issues is because of the unique relationship on this forum between engineer and end user. In the same forum that broadcasts its flaws, the options and solutions are presented and 9 times out of 10, implemented. No electronic product is perfect and I am just happy to have a hand in the development of one.
Kicking the engineers in the teeth because there is a forum to do so, is not why we are here, IMHO of course.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 21, 2007)

Ken S said:


> The HR series is a computer that they're making for well under $200 including software/licensing. I think cost is a much bigger factor than performance when they're selecting components.


You mean that they are leasing to me for well under $200... Unlike other subsidized hardware there is never a time when the hardware becomes mine or somehow costs me less. It's just a sub $200 initiation fee to join their service and incur additional monthly fees for doing so. 

Has anyone done a pricing teardown to see how much these boxes are actually costing DirecTV to manufacture? How much does a person pay if they want to buy the STB outright?

I'm all for keeping costs down, both for DirecTV and for me, but they failed to include the development and support costs for accommodating all of the released, same generation, hardware revisions when deciding to let the manufacturer have their own variants. Penny wise, pound foolish comes to mind.


armophob said:


> IMHO the only reason the OP is aware of all the Directv receivers issues is because of the unique relationship on this forum between engineer and end user. In the same forum that broadcasts its flaws, the options and solutions are presented and 9 times out of 10, implemented. No electronic product is perfect and I am just happy to have a hand in the development of one.
> Kicking the engineers in the teeth because there is a forum to do so, is not why we are here, IMHO of course.


The defects listed in the OP seem to be speed and stability which are available to any end user and have only to do with the CE feature set only that he wants what he considers core functionality addressed first before adding new ones. I really cannot think of any better forum to post to, albeit a less inflammatory subject might have been useful, if he had any hope that DirecTV might see it. Do you have a suggestion where the OP could have posted instead of here?


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## Teronzhul (Sep 21, 2006)

My parents have an HR20-700 and an HR20-100, both of which perform nearly flawlessly. 

I have an HR23-700. Now it hasn't lost recordings or anything, but it is an order of magnitude slower than the HR20 boxes. It is so much slower, that it often takes 2-3 seconds between keypress on the remote and recognition on the display. This makes channel changing nigh impossible on days when it decides to be particularly ornery. 

I don't know if it is a fault of the hardware or software, but it certainly appears that the newer boxes are in fact getting slower and less usable.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> Your honesty is refreshing. Yes, there is more to life than Ce....I like your philosophy. Well balanced.


Thanx. I haven't had a real job in 15 years (taught at a college for awhile, not my idea of real work) and haven't been bored. Because of the forum, I haven't been reading as much as I'd like, but I do enjoy the forum. I just don't want to get hooked on it worse than I am.

I'm glad that you guys do it, just as I'm glad that the volunteer fire departments and first aid squads are manned by folks that enjoy that sort of thing. Somebody has to do it, just not me.

Rich


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

LlamaLarry said:


> The defects listed in the OP seem to be speed and stability which are available to any end user and have only to do with the CE feature set only that he wants what he considers core functionality addressed first before adding new ones. I really cannot think of any better forum to post to, albeit a less inflammatory subject might have been useful, if he had any hope that DirecTV might see it. Do you have a suggestion where the OP could have posted instead of here?


No, this is a free forum for opinions. I think my opinion differs most of the time with these type of threads because there is a mindset of some that think there is only a handful of engineers/developers working in the background. If they are working on forward thinking advances, then they must be dropping the ball on current issues. All of these things are going on at the same time. Stopping the development team until the techs in charge of researching the issues, fix every bug, just does not make sense. And it certainly does not make good business sense.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

I have a simple answer to all this.

Go try a cable provider DVR. Then come back and try to tell me the Directv DVR is crap. 

Yes, I would hope it would be a bit more reliable and not so glitchy at times. But honestly mine have been very solid, if a little slow at times, for the entire time I have owned them.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

LlamaLarry said:


> Not sure what was going on with your setup, but what was causing your TiVos to both crash their drives and make so much noise? I have switched away from the DirecTiVos to HR2*'s, but I doubt I replaced their drives any more than I have the new ones - just to add space. The DirecTiVos were a little loud from drive chatter but setting the drive AAM to quiet helped that.


All my TiVos had large HDDs in them and they all made that "seeking" noise. The HR's HDD is secured so well compared to a TiVo that I can understand why they are so quiet. And a larger internal HDD makes no more noise than a 300G HDD. Ya gotta remember, I'm not a Geek, I have no idea what AAM means, for instance. All I know is that the TiVos HDDs were noisy and failed at a frequency that I found disturbing. When I finally completed my switchover to the HRs the TiVos were randomly rebooting constantly. I don't miss them one bit. Three years ago, I wouldn't have believed that I just typed that. :lol:

Rich


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

LlamaLarry said:


> You mean that they are leasing to me for well under $200... Unlike other subsidized hardware there is never a time when the hardware becomes mine or somehow costs me less. It's just a sub $200 initiation fee to join their service and incur additional monthly fees for doing so.
> 
> Has anyone done a pricing teardown to see how much these boxes are actually costing DirecTV to manufacture?


In a Feb 2008 investor call, DirecTV reported that their cost for HD DVRs was $260 and was expected to be $220 by Q1 2009.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

armophob said:


> IMHO the only reason the OP is aware of all the Directv receivers issues is because of the unique relationship on this forum between engineer and end user. In the same forum that broadcasts its flaws, the options and solutions are presented and 9 times out of 10, implemented. No electronic product is perfect and I am just happy to have a hand in the development of one.
> Kicking the engineers in the teeth because there is a forum to do so, is not why we are here, IMHO of course.


I've been wanting to ask someone this question for a long time and I know you know that I'm not the enemy. So: Do you actually have "humble opinions"? I don't think of my opinions as "humble", but certainly changeable for the most part, if they can be proved wrong. The only opinion I have that I consider written in stone is my opinion of the 100 series of HRs. Just curious, willing to change my opinion on the "IMHO" issue. :lol:

Rich


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

rob316 said:


> MY HR21-100 and H21-200 run great, yes there may be minor bugs here and there but nothing to gripe about. I use to have Comcast, talk about buggy equiptment try their POS Moto boxes and you will be running back to D.


And yet my Comcast Motorola DVR is far more stable and reliable than my DirecTV R15 ever was.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 21, 2007)

armophob said:


> Stopping the development team until the techs in charge of researching the issues, fix every bug, just does not make sense. And it certainly does not make good business sense.


I agree with you, however, if the OP is reporting that his HR HR2*'s are missing recordings then all the CE goodness of MRVing the recordings they happen to make is lost. "Record up to 100% of the shows you want to watch *actual results may vary", "Watch most of the shows you wanted to - in multiple rooms" and "Slow enough even your grandma can keep up" are not great sales pitches.  OTOH, I have none of these complaints, but I'm still slowly weeding out duplicate SLs so I may be masking missing recordings.


rich584 said:


> All my TiVos had large HDDs in them and they all made that "seeking" noise.


I will definitely admit that the few times (yes I did it more than once because I am not that bright) I decided to let the drives stay in "performance" mode vs quiet I was stunned with how much drive chatter there was with the DirecTiVos.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

My HR20-700 is about 4 years old, give or take, and it is very quiet. I don't hear a peep from it.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Teronzhul said:


> My parents have an HR20-700 and an HR20-100, both of which perform nearly flawlessly.
> 
> I have an HR23-700. Now it hasn't lost recordings or anything, but it is an order of magnitude slower than the HR20 boxes. It is so much slower, that it often takes 2-3 seconds between keypress on the remote and recognition on the display. This makes channel changing nigh impossible on days when it decides to be particularly ornery.
> 
> I don't know if it is a fault of the hardware or software, but it certainly appears that the newer boxes are in fact getting slower and less usable.


I'm pretty sure the problem with the 23 is the remote control receiver of the box itself, at least for the RF mode. I've never tried IR because I use the 23 in two separate rooms and need the RF mode. I use the RF mode on all my HRs and the response of the 23 is, by far, the worst. Unless I'm in the room with it, I can't see the Power light to see if the 23 has even seen the commands. I can say that in the room that the 23 resides in, the power light does not blink every time I hit the remote and it doesn't seem to matter which button I click. New remote, new batteries, tried two other remotes with the same results.

I think if they fixed that the 23 would be really quick. I had a 22 in the same place and it was really quick to respond from both rooms. And the direction I had the remote pointed had no bearing on the 22 picking up the remotes signals, in either room.

Rich


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 21, 2007)

Upstream said:


> In a Feb 2008 investor call, DirecTV reported that their cost for HD DVRs was $260 and was expected to be $220 by Q1 2009.


Thank you for the prompt answer to my question!  I have to say that $220 is indeed pretty darn cheap.

For the record, I consider this board a valuable resource, even without the CE forum. I made the difficult (for me) decision to abandon my HR10's and join the Hundred Nation based solely on the information here on the hardware and details on the current and future channels I would be "missing" had I stayed on a legacy platform.

My only real concern for this board is the increasingly odd way some members want to stomp out dissent or any thread that carries a whiff of "blame" towards DirecTV either in programming, marketing or development. This whole freedom fries, love it or leave it, insider vs outsider vibe stifles conversation and very likely keeps some people from contributing lest they incur the ire of the mob.


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## badger04 (Jun 7, 2007)

Even though my HD DVR is a little slow; the program choices are great, I get great customer service, and picture is great and dependable. My brother in law has ATT U Serve in Chicago and could believe the HD picture I had from Direct TV. It is each their own!! Everyone has their choice, for me it is Direct TV, not Charter or Dish!!!:nono:


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## BAHitman (Oct 24, 2007)

In the time I have had my HR22-100's, my coworker has been to time warner 4 times to get his HDDVR replaced because it was not stable... each time losing the recordings he had on the boxes. 

all-in-all, I find the reliability and speed of the 2 HR22-100's and my 5 DirecTivo's I own to be nearly equal...


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I've been wanting to ask someone this question for a long time and I know you know that I'm not the enemy. So: Do you actually have "humble opinions"? I don't think of my opinions as "humble", but certainly changeable for the most part, if they can be proved wrong. The only opinion I have that I consider written in stone is my opinion of the 100 series of HRs. Just curious, willing to change my opinion on the "IMHO" issue. :lol:
> 
> Rich


Have I got it wrong again? I always use that under the assumption it means " In my honest opinion" . If it means humble, then I need a new acronym.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

LlamaLarry said:


> Thank you for the prompt answer to my question!  I have to say that $220 is indeed pretty darn cheap.
> 
> For the record, I consider this board a valuable resource, even without the CE forum. I made the difficult (for me) decision to abandon my HR10's and join the Hundred Nation based solely on the information here on the hardware and details on the current and future channels I would be "missing" had I stayed on a legacy platform.
> 
> My only real concern for this board is the increasingly odd way some members want to stomp out dissent or any thread that carries a whiff of "blame" towards DirecTV either in programming, marketing or development. This whole freedom fries, love it or leave it, insider vs outsider vibe stifles conversation and very likely keeps some people from contributing lest they incur the ire of the mob.


My $0.02 on your post, which has merit:

There's a good way and a bad way to go about criticizing something/someone. Certain posts and threads on this forum get personal and are downright immature while others are constructive and helpful. Perhaps some of us "fanboys," as I've been so often called, are particularly sensitive to the former type of post because we have a vested interest in the software through the extensive testing that we've done. Even that aside, there's a right way and wrong way to bring about desired changes in something. Saying that the engineering staff ought to be fired to start off a conversation isn't constructive. Additionally, this thread cites no particular issue that the OP wanted help with. The regulars here like to help others figure out problems, as has already been stated earlier.

So anyhow, while I agree with your post that conversation and constructive debate is helpful, there's a lot of useless venting/bashing that goes on here.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

armophob said:


> Have I got it wrong again? I always use that under the assumption it means " In my honest opinion" . If it means humble, then I need a new acronym.


I just "binged" IMHO and one web site did have a lot of answers. Honest was one. But the prevalent definition was Humble.

Wackypedia has both with Honest second.

Also found Holy, Hesitating and Highest.

You're not wrong, but I think most people think it means Humble. I never even considered Honest. This is what I hate about acronyms. 935,000 hits on a Google search.

Now, you realize that anybody that reads your post and reads this is never gonna have any idea what IMHO means in your mind, right? :lol:

Rich


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Now, you realize that anybody that reads your post and reads this is never gonna have any idea what IMHO means in your mind, right? :lol:
> 
> Rich


I hereby declare that I am not now, nor have I ever been humble in any statement I have ever made.:lol:

That ought a clear it up.


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## LlamaLarry (Apr 21, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> Additionally, this thread cites no particular issue that the OP wanted help with. The regulars here like to help others figure out problems, as has already been stated earlier.


Yes, this thread was definitely started off as a rant, both by the subject and the tone of the initial post itself. However, what he seems to be asking for are speed, stability and core functionality (no missed recordings, etc). Minus the subject and the closing request that the developers be replaced and you have the bulk of *every week's* Anticipation threads and a good amount of every release's Issues and/or Discussion threads.


> So anyhow, while I agree with your post that conversation and constructive debate is helpful, there's a lot of useless venting/bashing that goes on here.


Agreed. However, this forum is likely the most informed site for DirecTV customers to turn to and it/we can either teach them to fish when they come crying or break their poles and return to the merry throng where everyone agrees with us and hoists another round to DirecTV. Expecting someone that feels like DirecTV is not meeting their impression of the SLA they've paid for (and usually paid to paid for) to *not* rant might be wishful. It would be great if no one had to explode because they were not being heard everywhere else, but maybe that's the price of being the go to site for DirecTV support.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

LlamaLarry said:


> Yes, this thread was definitely started off as a rant, both by the subject and the tone of the initial post itself. However, what he seems to be asking for are speed, stability and core functionality (no missed recordings, etc). Minus the subject and the closing request that the developers be replaced and you have the bulk of *every week's* Anticipation threads and a good amount of every release's Issues and/or Discussion threads.Agreed. However, this forum is likely the most informed site for DirecTV customers to turn to and it/we can either teach them to fish when they come crying or break their poles and return to the merry throng where everyone agrees with us and hoists another round to DirecTV. Expecting someone that feels like DirecTV is not meeting their impression of the SLA they've paid for (and usually paid to paid for) to *not* rant might be wishful. It would be great if no one had to explode because they were not being heard everywhere else, but maybe that's the price of being the go to site for DirecTV support.


I agree with everything you've said. It gets a bit frustrating when the threads are redundant and additionally take on a confrontational tone. Some of us that hang out here often could use this reminder, too, thanks.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

armophob said:


> I hereby declare that I am not now, nor have I ever been humble in any statement I have ever made.:lol:
> 
> That ought a clear it up.


:lol: Are we ever really humble in stating our opinion. IMHO is sh$$.


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## Rob77 (Sep 24, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> My $0.02 on your post, which has merit:
> 
> There's a good way and a bad way to go about criticizing something/someone. Certain posts and threads on this forum get personal and are downright immature while others are constructive and helpful. Perhaps some of us "fanboys," as I've been so often called, are particularly sensitive to the former type of post because we have a vested interest in the software through the extensive testing that we've done. Even that aside, there's a right way and wrong way to bring about desired changes in something. Saying that the engineering staff ought to be fired to start off a conversation isn't constructive. Additionally, this thread cites no particular issue that the OP wanted help with. The regulars here like to help others figure out problems, as has already been stated earlier.
> 
> So anyhow, while I agree with your post that conversation and constructive debate is helpful, there's a lot of useless venting/bashing that goes on here.


OK...fine...here's a start....

1. Why over the past few weeks has my remotes constantly slowed down causing program changes and record functions to take anywhere in the area from 30 sec up to 1 to 2 minutes?

2. Why have recorded programs just disappeared from my Hr-21 ?

3. Why has the unit (in the past few weeks) frozen on a regular basis (especially after update versions are sent down) needing numerous rebooting?

4. Many of these problems seem to get worse late Friday....is there a relationship between code being sent for the CE and regular NR's
(yes I know that should not happen...but it seems there is some relationship)

5. Why have these problems intensified over the past few weeks when previously there were no problems?

My comments about engineering personnel reflects the fact that over the years 'bells and whistles" seem much more important to them then stability...
IMHO...I think this is wrong and should be changed


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Rob77 said:


> OK...fine...here's a start....
> 
> 1. Why over the past few weeks has my remotes constantly slowed down causing program changes and record functions to take anywhere in the area from 30 sec up to 1 to 2 minutes?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2150947



Rob77 said:


> 2. Why have recorded programs just disappeared from my Hr-21 ?


Is your drive close to full?



Rob77 said:


> 3. Why has the unit (in the past few weeks) frozen on a regular basis (especially after update versions are sent down) needing numerous rebooting?


How many updates have you received in the past few weeks? The last national software update was in the beginning of June. If your unit freezes frequently you should get a replacement.



Rob77 said:


> 4. Many of these problems seem to get worse late Friday....is there a relationship between code being sent for the CE and regular NR's
> (yes I know that should not happen...but it seems there is some relationship)


No relation.



Rob77 said:


> 5. Why have these problems intensified over the past few weeks when previously there were no problems?


Not sure... really sounds like a local issue in your setup. Have you considered calling customer service to get a tech out to check your setup?



Rob77 said:


> My comments about engineering personnel reflects the fact that over the years 'bells and whistles" seem much more important to them then stability...
> IMHO...I think this is wrong and should be changed


IMO stability was fine on my old RCA receivers 8 years ago. Then again I wouldn't have a DVR today if they stopped there. :shrug:


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## Santi360HD (Oct 6, 2008)

My 2 cents

I came to Direct TV in 2005..when i had enough of the NFL Network issue with Time Warner. A couple of things swayed me to this side of the FENCE..not to lose focus on the topic here, i'll get back to it in a sec.

- I live in NYC have a 6 story apt building so no horror stories on trees or other buildings blocking me my dish is on the roof not a side window..I face the Hudson River with a clear view and have never had an issue with signal quality. It reallty takes a sheet downpour of rain to lose my signal. Here I was thinking i couldnt have dishes on my roof (not everyone in NYC is so lucky like that fyi) till that summer day i went upstairs to look and there were PLENTY surrounding me.

-DTV has YES Network, unlike DISH

-NFL Network & Sunday Ticket remain the major reason i chose DTV..

-Direct TV at the time was pounding the pavement with ads on HD availability and it's MANY channels offerings. Back then cable couldn't carry its jock at that time...It has since changed *somewhat* now Cable's campaign is to HD the channels that arent in HD on satellite. At the time of signup I didnt have HD, i was pricing sets to eventually get on..so for starters i jumped aboard in SD 1st..Have HD'ed since.

now back to the topic

One thing I always remembered with Cable and their DVR is that each year there always was some problem..Phantom records i didnt program (kinda like the way TIVO tapes infomercials at 2am) Mind you not only infomercials I MEAN A REAL PHANTOM RECORDING in that sometimes the light would show recording and nothing was recording. Also a light DVR queue not loaded wtih weeks & weeks of shows used to freeze & lock up..Even clearing the queue would stick & give issue...Then I found this site at the time I was debating leaving Cable..and read horror stories on Satellite's DVR..
Just something about DVR service it isnt from my experience better on one type of media (cable) than another (satellite). I had a seperate Tivo with my SD box (not a DTV DVR box). The Infomercials at 2am...THE WAY LONG REBOOT time..the no ON/Off switch. Have since ended my svce with TIVO when i got the HD box

I said I'm gonna go with my SD box *non DVR*..Up until the time I got my HD (also NON DVR) box I can say I have never had an issue with the service at all. Because I read that with satellite you gotta buy your equip. Since i jumped on with SD i cannot flip for no charge to an HD box I'd have to pay..It is a reason i havent HD'ed my living room set yet..Sure if something happens to my Sd box i can flip with no charge that cause I have the protection plan. But for the originator of this post stating such issues with DVR service is the reason i came on NON DVR style...Besides if i miss a show alot of the networks websites usually have them streaming the very next day..Much to the sha-grin of torrent sites back then that had them immediate after airing.

I do hope your DVR issues can be resolved. I will never regret leaving cable for satellite. Rain or NON HD'ed channels. Im in for the long run. I have no issues, I am very happy..

game on


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

LlamaLarry said:


> You mean that they are leasing to me for well under $200... Unlike other subsidized hardware there is never a time when the hardware becomes mine or somehow costs me less. It's just a sub $200 initiation fee to join their service and incur additional monthly fees for doing so.
> 
> Has anyone done a pricing teardown to see how much these boxes are actually costing DirecTV to manufacture? How much does a person pay if they want to buy the STB outright?
> 
> I'm all for keeping costs down, both for DirecTV and for me, but they failed to include the development and support costs for accommodating all of the released, same generation, hardware revisions when deciding to let the manufacturer have their own variants. Penny wise, pound foolish comes to mind.The defects listed in the OP seem to be speed and stability which are available to any end user and have only to do with the CE feature set only that he wants what he considers core functionality addressed first before adding new ones. I really cannot think of any better forum to post to, albeit a less inflammatory subject might have been useful, if he had any hope that DirecTV might see it. Do you have a suggestion where the OP could have posted instead of here?


They have announced they are paying under $200 each for the DVRs. Some of the cost cutting they have done was obvious (dropping ATSC tuners). It should be noted though they did move to a larger HD (320GB to 500GB) with the HR22s.

You can buy the HR21 Pro...I think it listed around $500 and can be found from time to time for around $300. You still pay a $5/month fee (it's just called mirroring rather than lease) if you have more than one receiver on your account.

They charge the $200 because some will pay it. It has little to do with the cost of the box. They also give them away or discount them quite frequently.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

LlamaLarry said:


> Thank you for the prompt answer to my question!  I have to say that $220 is indeed pretty darn cheap.
> 
> For the record, I consider this board a valuable resource, even without the CE forum. I made the difficult (for me) decision to abandon my HR10's and join the Hundred Nation based solely on the information here on the hardware and details on the current and future channels I would be "missing" had I stayed on a legacy platform.
> 
> My only real concern for this board is the increasingly odd way some members want to stomp out dissent or any thread that carries a whiff of "blame" towards DirecTV either in programming, marketing or development. This whole freedom fries, love it or leave it, insider vs outsider vibe stifles conversation and very likely keeps some people from contributing lest they incur the ire of the mob.


It's not increasing...been this way for years. It's just the flavor of this forum. Doubtful it will change anytime soon. There's also a group of folks that openly root against/hate DirecTV. Makes for interesting reading sometimes. If you're unlucky you'll get PMs from one group or the other some of which can be way less than friendly.


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## SledDog (May 6, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> Perhaps some of us "fanboys," as I've been so often called, are particularly sensitive to the former type of post because we have a vested interest in the software through the extensive testing that we've done. Even that aside, there's a right way and wrong way to bring about desired changes in something. Saying that the engineering staff ought to be fired to start off a conversation isn't constructive.


You must remember something. This is a moderated site. If there was a problem with original post, I'm sure the one of the moderators would have closed/removed it. People rant, that's a fact. You may or may not like what or how they say it, but it is allowed.

Do you have a vested interest? Those of us that test are just that, "testers". We actually have no vested interest other than our own belief that we are assisting to make a product better. It is easier for DirecTV to have a large pool of people evaluating a product then a small select group. They can, at any time, stop outside testing, or stop releasing updates. So again, your vested interest, is self-serving. Just as mine is. Just remember, your vested interest, may or may not be the same as the folks that provide you the ability to test.

So, I think, the vested interest statement is a bit "over the top" and may be why some folk here have labeled you as a "fanboy", or so you say. Although, I personally have never read a post stating that.

The OP has a valid point that his equipment does not work to his satisfaction. And this forum gives him a place to look for answers, assistance or to just rant because he is frustrated. He is entitled to his opinion. As is everyone else. And, mods please let me know if I'm wrong, until he violates the user agreement, he can post what he wants.

If everyone posted like you, had the same opinion as you, or the same beliefs as you, this would be a very boring place.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

SledDog said:


> You must remember something. This is a moderated site. If there was a problem with original post, I'm sure the one of the moderators would have closed/removed it. People rant, that's a fact. You may or may not like what or how they say it, but it is allowed.
> 
> Do you have a vested interest? Those of us that test are just that, "testers". We actually have no vested interest other than our own belief that we are assisting to make a product better. It is easier for DirecTV to have a large pool of people evaluating a product then a small select group.
> 
> ...


Of course people are free to post what they want to post, within the forum rules. When did I say he couldn't? 

I do feel like I have a vested interest of my time - and I'm _sure_ plenty of others feel the same way. I'm honestly baffled that you're taking issue with that.

Anyhow, getting back to topic, the OP's real problems are finally starting to come out, after 61 posts, and it appears they're fixable. I'm curious to what length he's gone to get them fixed. Receivers shouldn't be freezing up frequently.


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## SledDog (May 6, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> I do feel like I have a vested interest of my time - and I'm _sure_ plenty of others feel the same way. I'm honestly baffled that you're taking issue with that.


I'm not taking issue with that. I find it interesting that you have to make that statement. No need to beat your chest about your dedication. I just wonder why you had to make that statement.

And, no, you did not say he could not post with in the forum rules. But you did go out of your way to point out that the OP was not asking for help, and that this type of thread was not constructive.

If he wants to rant. Let him rant. He does not have to conform to your personal needs when he posts...
:backtotop


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

SledDog said:


> I'm not taking issue with that. I find it interesting that you have to make that statement. No need to beat your chest about your dedication. I just wonder why you had to make that statement.
> 
> And, no, you did not say he could not post with in the forum rules. But you did go out of your way to point out that the OP was not asking for help, and that this type of thread was not constructive.
> 
> ...


Why did I have to make that statement? Because I was responding to LlamaLarry's post about why people defend DirecTV.  :scratchin Are we in the twilight zone? I'm not beating my chest about anything, I felt it helped illustrate my point.

If he wants to rant, fine, but I have every right to respond in kind.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Folks .. please play nice .. Thank You.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Rob77 said:


> OK...fine...here's a start....
> 
> 1. Why over the past few weeks has my remotes constantly slowed down causing program changes and record functions to take anywhere in the area from 30 sec up to 1 to 2 minutes?


I've seen reports about slowdowns. I do know that DIRECTV is working on some speed improvements.



> 2. Why have recorded programs just disappeared from my Hr-21 ?


I definitely have not seen lots of reports of this recently. Is this with the factory HDD or eSATA? Either way, this could be indicative of something wrong with your HDD.



> 3. Why has the unit (in the past few weeks) frozen on a regular basis (especially after update versions are sent down) needing numerous rebooting?


Hmmm .. this again could be indicative of an HDD problem.



> 4. Many of these problems seem to get worse late Friday....is there a relationship between code being sent for the CE and regular NR's
> (yes I know that should not happen...but it seems there is some relationship)


There actually is no way for this to happen. I'd be the first to admit that coincidences are hard to come by, if you are seeing this, it's definitely a coincidence. If there is a "cause" on Friday evenings, then it is something else.



> 5. Why have these problems intensified over the past few weeks when previously there were no problems?


Again, I'd go back to the HDD as being the problem. Mechanical parts do wear out and it's sounding more and more like your HDD is not performing the way it should.



> My comments about engineering personnel reflects the fact that over the years 'bells and whistles" seem much more important to them then stability...
> IMHO...I think this is wrong and should be changed


There is a bigger picture here and DIRECTV is constantly working on issue .. In this situation, your HDD may actually be faililng which is causing your overall experience to be worse than it used to be.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> There is a bigger picture here and DIRECTV is constantly working on issue .. In this situation, your HDD may actually be faililng which is causing your overall experience to be worse than it used to be.


Based on the point-by-point list of the poster....most of the points seem tied to a defective unit (or hard drive at least).

It would seem that simply making a call to DirecTV to report these issues, followed by a replacement unit, would likely change things significantly.

The firmware speed issue is a programming item (being worked on), but everything else has nothing to do with the OP's issues with any engineering staff.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The firmware speed issue is a programming item (being worked on), but everything else has nothing to do with the OP's issues with any engineering staff.


I understand why it was stated, I just don't agree with the conclusion .. This seems more related to hardware than Engineering.


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Rob77 said:


> As I read around the site, there are many mentions of continuing problems with recordings, loss of material, bad software,slow channel changes, etc. It is time for a reality check.
> 
> Most people want a DEPENDABLE system that records, playbacks, has a program schedule that works, has a remote system that does not take forever to change etc.....just the basics.
> 
> ...


Based on my nightmarish experiences going back to August 2006 and continuing to today with the boat anchor known as the HR20 (tonight it's refusing to play 1080p recordings on my 1080p set!), I could not agree with you more! And my suspicion is this debacle has a lot to do with DirecTV's getting back in bed with TiVo. Basically, a "we give up. It's been almost three years and we're STILL issuing stability releases on this thing." It's obvious they really don't know what they're doing!


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> Based on my nightmarish experiences going back to August 2006 and continuing to today with the boat anchor known as the HR20 (tonight it's refusing to play 1080p recordings on my 1080p set!), I could not agree with you more! And my suspicion is this debacle has a lot to do with DirecTV's getting back in bed with TiVo. Basically, a "we give up. It's been almost three years and we're STILL issuing stability releases on this thing." It's obvious they really don't know what they're doing!


Have you played 1080P programs on the tv before? How is your unit hooked up? what other issues have you had n the last year?

I have 5 units, and they are all running great, and my folks have 4, and theres are running perfect as well.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> I could not agree with you more! And my suspicion is this debacle has a lot to do with DirecTV's getting back in bed with TiVo. Basically, a "we give up. It's been almost three years and we're STILL issuing stability releases on this thing." It's obvious they really don't know what they're doing!


DIRECTV will continue to offer their own system regardless of whether TiVo releases one of their own or not.


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Rob77 said:


> As I read around the site, there are many mentions of continuing problems with recordings, loss of material, bad software,slow channel changes, etc. It is time for a reality check.
> 
> Most people want a DEPENDABLE system that records, playbacks, has a program schedule that works, has a remote system that does not take forever to change etc.....just the basics.
> 
> ...


I have sat and ponder your post because in a lot of ways I agree and then again, in a lot of ways I'm empathic to what DirecTV Engineers are doing, without knowing their specific number and level of pressures that they have to endure. We can only make assumptions (unless we walk in their shoes) as to what is going on. DirecTV never shares with the public their designs and frankly, I think they would breach their proprietary nature if they did. I think it is encumbant on us, as the consumers, to let them know that they are failing and that they need to fix these failings; and if they don't, the best answer is to find a service that doesn't fail. They will eventually listen, if the subscribers begin to leave. But if no one says anything, then they may never know, and things to them are going great, no complaints. We have to constructively criticise where they are failing and ensure they get the message and let them know, that it is unsatisfactory, that they need to get better. I think if we all do this, they will begin to listen and make changes. I don't beleive their are uncaring engineers working for DirecTV...I would expect they are all very passionate about their positions and whom they touch daily with their work. What they do is not so simple, it is very complicated and takes time to develop. I expect they want to make things work for everyone all the time, but there are limitation to what anyone can do...

I beleive DirecTV is doing everything they can to make us happy. Some are, and some aren't, that is how things work.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

smiddy said:


> I beleive DirecTV is doing everything they can to make us happy. Some are, and some aren't, that is how things work.


DirecTV is doing no such thing. They are doing everything they can to maximize their profitability. That's their goal and it controls what level of equipment they deliver, what features they offer and what type of customer service they provide. Of course, a corporation is made up of individuals and can from time to time veer from that ultimate goal...both to the positive and negative from a customer perspective, but those monthly/quarterly numbers and quotas quickly remind employees to get back in line.

Your comment about ALL of the engineers being passionate and caring about the people they touch is a bit far-fetched. You don't really believe that do you?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Ken S said:


> They are doing everything they can to maximize their profitability. That's their goal and it controls what level of equipment they'll deliver, what features they'll offer and what type of customer service they provide.


I believe the first part of your statement to be true, and true of any business.

I also believe the second part of your statement to be false, and false of almost any business (especially one that is planning to stay in business).

That second perspective seems to suggest that profit at all cost (including poor customer service) is their mantra, and DirecTV's investment in hundreds of millions of dollars for that, as well as JD Power awards in that area, seem to refute that contention.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'd say that's true of any corporation that expects to survive. I do find that their level of service suits me fine. 

As far as targeted attacks directed at the engineering staff, I can say only that I have never met a group as dedicated to success as the DIRECTV engineers. 

It's been pointed out that the rough probability of major issues is 0.01% of users. Now that still turns out to be thousands and thousands of people and we're privileged to have some of them here. We work hard to be the best satellite TV forum on the web and we're happy to give what advice we can to try to help. 

I'd simply say that some situations, some issues are very complex, require the attention of multiple departments, and sometimes take time to resolve. I think this is true of consumer products in general. If you're one of those who has an issue that's taking time and effort to resolve, welcome! We'll do what we can for you.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I believe the first part of your statement to be true, and true of any business.
> 
> I also believe the second part of your statement to be false, and false of almost any business (especially one that is planning to stay in business).
> 
> That second perspective seems to suggest that profit at all cost (including poor customer service) is their mantra, and DirecTV's investment in hundreds of millions of dollars for that, as well as JD Power awards in that area, seem to refute that contention.


I am suggesting they do what they believe maximizes profits nothing more, nothing less. That means they build things/hire people with profits as the goal (it's called budgeting to hit goals/projections). If they believed having highly paid engineers on the line for customer service would make more money for them they'd do that. Same goes for their DVRs...for example do you think they would have dropped the ATSC tuners if they believed the extra cost would bring in greater profits? I'm not suggesting anything different...so...please stop painting my comments with your bias.

JD Powers awards are a marketing-driven joke and the hundreds of millions (your number) is dwarfed by their gross sales numbers (about $20B this year). DirecTV like a lot of other corporations does spend a lot on customer service...but it's only done to meet their service level goals.

This isn't a negative...DirecTV from a financial perspective is a well-run company. They keep a solid handle on costs. I guess that contradicts the beliefs of some here that DirecTV is actually a warm-cuddly teddy bear spreading charity, love and good will.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Ken S said:


> I am suggesting they do what they believe maximizes profits nothing more, nothing less. That means they build things/hire people with profits as the goal. If they believed having highly paid engineers on the line for customer service would make more money for them they'd do that. I'm not suggesting anything different...so...please stop painting my comments with your bias.
> 
> JD Powers awards are a marketing-driven joke and the hundreds of millions (your number) is dwarfed by their gross sales numbers (about $20B this year).


Without getting into any kind of back-and-forth here....I believe a case could be made that anyone's opinion here on this topic includes bias, including yours.

In any case, you (like the rest of us) are entitled to your opinion.

Some of us simply disagree.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> First off.. Would you say the same to any company? Like say Microsoft?


I would. Look at M$. They put out beta software and call it RTM (Vista). They put out software with blatant security holes and then cannot patch them (video thing in IE). They show lower requirements than required just to get on PCs (all windows since 95). So yes, I would say M$ engineers are not the greatest. They need to do a complete rewrite of Windows to make it a great OS. It's not just in the commercials, OS X > Windows. The only disadvantage OS X has is that it requires expensive hardware.


gitarzan said:


> I am annoyed with performance of my HR21 every time I turn it on.


And I am very annoyed with the performance of my HR22-100. I should have believed the installer when he said it was a PoS. But it's all i have so I guess I have to deal with it. 


MicroBeta said:


> In the beginning I yearned to go back to TiVo. Now I can't find a reason to do so.


If the TiVo based receiver when it comes out is significantly faster than the HR2x, I'm moving to it. Guide speed in the HR22-100 is pitiful no matter what firmware is on it. Add to that if there is anything akin to TiVo2Go, it is an absolute no brainer.


BubblePuppy said:


> Personally I have to give the D* engineering/programming staff many accolades. The effort that they are putting in to make the "gear" top notch is commendable.
> How many companies spend so much effort to include users in the testing method, and listen to what the users have to say?
> The iphone, Vista, Blackberry, etc, all have short comings. How long does it take for those short comings to be improved on? The D* group work their butts off to make improvements every week. Some work, some don't.
> All I can say is that I am glad to be part of the testing group.


I agree with most of what is said here. Especially the testing part. They do good work and try to get the issues fixed. There is one issue they seem to be having major trouble with. I believe one day they will even fix that one.

Now with the mention of iPhone, Vista and BlackBerry the only one I would say is even close to what we have here is the BlackBerry. There are constantly new OS's coming out to improve battery life, memory leaks, add features, etc. You'll never see that with Vista or non-jailbroken iPhone.


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Ken S said:


> DirecTV is doing no such thing. They are doing everything they can to maximize their profitability. That's their goal and it controls what level of equipment they deliver, what features they offer and what type of customer service they provide. Of course, a corporation is made up of individuals and can from time to time veer from that ultimate goal...both to the positive and negative from a customer perspective, but those monthly/quarterly numbers and quotas quickly remind employees to get back in line.


Yeah, at every level of the company there are those niches of how and why. At the top where the share holders are, they control the purse strings, they ultimately need to be happy, I agree. But the OP was on firing engineers to gain a better product. I think within the engineering organization they tend to be more conscious, at least in my experience, not knowing how DirecTV operates from day to day in there engineering organization, of product more so that the executives who are akin to making the share holder happy first.



Ken S said:


> Your comment about ALL of the engineers being passionate and caring about the people they touch is a bit far-fetched. You don't really believe that do you?


I beleive the majority of engineering's folks are. I think there are a few just making ends meet that do the job too, but the majority of the ones I've dealt with do understand they are what makes the product and their name is on it. Again, anything I or anyone else says about DirecTV engineering is speculative at best anyhow, unless you are an engineer from DirecTV who can discuss these things (which they will not).

I think the real point of my post, which was subtle, is that we need to be good consumers and give DirecTV constructive criticisms until the problems we have a solved. I think the trend is moving in the wrong direction, that there are more and more annoying problems which in the ends will force them to either yeild to the customer or lose customers.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Ken S said:


> DirecTV is doing no such thing. They are doing everything they can to maximize their profitability. That's their goal and it controls what level of equipment they deliver, what features they offer and what type of customer service they provide. Of course, a corporation is made up of individuals and can from time to time veer from that ultimate goal...both to the positive and negative from a customer perspective, but those monthly/quarterly numbers and quotas quickly remind employees to get back in line.
> 
> Your comment about ALL of the engineers being passionate and caring about the people they touch is a bit far-fetched. You don't really believe that do you?


I don't see why anyone would take issue with this succinct "summary". If I were a stockholder and found what Ken just said not to be true, I'd be after the company brass, not the engineering department.

I don't like inflammatory posts that call for someone to lose their job. It is nothing more than a fit of pique, and were it to be seriously followed up on, would be as irresponsible as it is unfair.

It is better to take some of the elements of the OP's post as hyperbole, and let it go at that.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

My HR22 is dead slow and it is very annoying to use. Coming from a 722, it is really obvious that the HR series is flawed to the core either because of software or an underpowered CPU. Either way, they need to junk the HR series and start again from scratch.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

hasan said:


> I don't like inflammatory posts that call for someone to lose their job. It is nothing more than a fit of pique, and were it to be seriously followed up on, would be as irresponsible as it is unfair.
> 
> It is better to take some of the elements of the OP's post as hyperbole, and let it go at that.


It may be inaccurate...it might not be the engineering group that is at fault for the problems. Could be product management, quality assurance, VP, etc.. Somewhere the system broke down...that should be fixed. Maybe it has...they're getting a new President


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

peano said:


> My HR22 is dead slow and it is very annoying to use. Coming from a 722, it is really obvious that the HR series is flawed to the core either because of software or an underpowered CPU. Either way, they need to junk the HR series and start again from scratch.


I'm pleased with the *development* of the H/HR series and do not find it junkie at all. Were it a finished product, I could use it. It's not, and I'm glad that it continues to be developed.

It needs to get better in many areas to become outstanding and not just usable. The bad news for some, is that it needs work. The good news, is that it continues to be *actively* worked on.

I don't have an HR22. I have the HR20-700, HR21-200, HR20-100, and H21-200. They are all quite usable in their current incarnation, but all of them also need work. Consider the alternative: dead end boxes.

I don't own (and never have) any sophisticated electronic devices that didn't need work. Unfortunately, the vast majority of them never received any. (read as dead end boxes). At least with the H/HR series we have development and a company responsive to user feedback. They may not be as fast as we like, they may not share all of our priorities, but at least we are not stuck with dead end products.

I have witnessed astounding progress since the HR20-700 was introduced, having gotten mine in September of 2006. I have experienced thousands of hours of use among my four models and find the units quite pleasing, yet far from perfect. I'm not sure what more I could realistically demand, solid feature base, good general performance and sustained bug fixing/development.

All of this leaves me with far better than what was characterized as "junk".

I'm sorry your experience hasn't been as good as mine. Perhaps another provider is in order, but do your research first. Caveat Emptor!


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

hasan said:


> I don't see why anyone would take issue with this succinct "summary". If I were a stockholder and found what Ken just said not to be true, I'd be after the company brass, not the engineering department.
> 
> I don't like inflammatory posts that call for someone to lose their job. It is nothing more than a fit of pique, and were it to be seriously followed up on, would be as irresponsible as it is unfair.
> 
> It is better to take some of the elements of the OP's post as hyperbole, and let it go at that.


It in my opinion the OP was a way to be heard. I think they are genuine concerns, but firing the staff as you point out, is not the answer. Firing would would only delay the product further, new staff always mean a learning curve, and those take a lot of time. This is similar to a firing squad, do one thing wrong, your toast. Fear of losing your position never ends with a solid product. Working together and educating one another on the ilks and determining ways to remove them, as a team, makes teh most sense to me.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> DIRECTV will continue to offer their own system regardless of whether TiVo releases one of their own or not.


It also will be interesting to see how the new HD DirecTivo works compared to the DirecTV HDDVR+ and what issues come up compared to the HDDVR+.I also think that choice is always a good thing and for DirecTV to offer 2 different HDDVRs will help each HDDVR software programmers to try to be better than the other.

If not there's always Echostar's 922.:eek2:


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Yep, my resume is ready! 

Not sure that would make you happy if I was doing the work though!


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## mjbvideo (Jan 15, 2006)

Don't you think managements decision to go back to TIVO is a red flag? If all was fine and dandy with their in-house system then why would they go back to Tivo? Perhaps I'm being way too simplistic with this but to me it looks like a vote of no or diminishing confidence in their HR 2x series software and/or hardware.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

hasan said:


> I'm pleased with the *development* of the H/HR series and do not find it junkie at all. Were it a finished product, I could use it. It's not, and I'm glad that it continues to be developed.
> 
> It needs to get better in many areas to become outstanding and not just usable. The bad news for some, is that it needs work. The good news, is that it continues to be *actively* worked on.


I can understand if they could fix it in one or two updates, but they can't even fix the most BASIC function - get the receiver to respond to the remote in a timely fashion. And how much time have they had????

The 722 was solid right out of the gate. I give the 722 a 9 out of 10 and the HR22 a 4.

Directv has a LONG way to go. And as the OP says, they need to clean house of whomever is trying to get the HR series to work properly.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> Unfortunately, they aren't in that position. These are at least 3 years in the making and there is NO valid excuse for the slowness issue to still exist. *Nor is their a valid reason for the skip to end bug (feature?) to be still there. * If the updates were making things better, it would be an indication of things moving in the right direction. But the last update slowed things back down from irritating to unacceptable.


That alone is reason enough to make me wanna pull an Elvis on my TV. 

I can't tell you how much cussing that so-called "feature" has made me spout.

If it wasn't for this website and learning that lots of people have trouble with this equipment, I would have cancelled my D* service when I first upgraded to HD three years ago. But knowing that the engineers are working on the receivers all the time kept me hanging on. The HD receivers seem to be a lot better now than then, but the DVRs are getting worse.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I wonder how many Directv employee's are members of this forum?
Before someone feeds me some Bull about Earl etc. Keep in mind that anybody can become a member, and they don't have to reveal they work for Directv.
It's good to have Directv employee's on the forum but it also skews posts like this because it becomes personal.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

My 2 Cents.

The system has gotten a lot better, but the OP is right, they should stop adding new features and concentrate on getting everything 100% right.


My advice to anybody who owns an HR2X is to get a second unit and have it mirror the important recordings of the first. Thats what I did and it helped me 90% of the way in getting my wife off my back. Another friend who got a DVR on my recommendation, hardly speaks to me anymore because of the problems he has had. So...

My second recommendation is be careful before recommending a HD DVR, because that $50 that I got was certainly not worth the tons of complaint phone calls which later turned into accusations, it came to a head two days ago and it was not pretty.

Now that it's $100 if your friends are not happy they are certainly going to say you did it for the Money and left them holding a POS.

BTW I agree, I am looking forward to the MRV upgrade like a hole in the head, I suspect it's going to be bug city for months after the release :nono2:


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

carl6 said:


> ...a company that gets it right 99.9% of the time is what you appear to be complaining about. Pretty demanding. Please name any company (other than the old regulated phone company, and maybe the electricity and water utilities in your city) that achieve that rate of success.


While I agree with you and the tone of the answers indicating that DTV is providing pretty solid service, the TV stations I work for would fire an engineering staff that could only keep them on the air 99.9% of the time. A minute of air time is worth 25-40K, and that is money we can't afford to leave on the table. Every critical system has at least two backups. We run 3 versions of Master Control at all times per station just so we have both a backup and emergency method of continuing to keep content on the air.

Being operational only 99.9% of the time would mean that we were off the air for nearly 9 hours every year. As it is, we are rarely if ever off the air, even for maintenance. Our rate of successfully broadcasting is more like 99.995%, which is less than half an hour a year. That half hour is the accumulated time we are off the air (over a year's time) when switching to a backup transmitter, either for emergencies or for planned maintenance. 99.9% means nothing, it is actually a very low rate of success.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> I wonder how many Directv employee's are members of this forum?


Other than Harsh, Steve Mehs and Ken S, I can't think of any.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

None of those individuals are DIRECTV employees, but you knew that.


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## gitarzan (Dec 31, 2005)

peano said:


> My HR22 is dead slow and it is very annoying to use. Coming from a 722, it is really obvious that the HR series is flawed to the core either because of software or an underpowered CPU. Either way, they need to junk the HR series and start again from scratch.


I agree coming from a fast Dish 622. I don't think it can get much better as DirecTV has been working on speed since I have been following this forum for the last 18 months. My HR21-700 was unacceptably slow when I got it in early 2008. It finally got much better with one of the national releases. Then the hard drive went bad a few months ago and DirecTV replaced it with an HR21-200 which I felt was a step backward performance wise.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

TomCat said:


> While I agree with you and the tone of the answers indicating that DTV is providing pretty solid service, the TV stations I work for would fire an engineering staff that could only keep them on the air 99.9% of the time. A minute of air time is worth 25-40K, and that is money we can't afford to leave on the table. Every critical system has at least two backups. We run 3 versions of Master Control at all times per station just so we have both a backup and emergency method of continuing to keep content on the air.
> 
> Being operational only 99.9% of the time would mean that we were off the air for nearly 9 hours every year. As it is, we are rarely if ever off the air, even for maintenance. Our rate of successfully broadcasting is more like 99.995%, which is less than half an hour a year. That half hour is the accumulated time we are off the air (over a year's time) when switching to a backup transmitter, either for emergencies or for planned maintenance. 99.9% means nothing, it is actually a very low rate of success.


 Then you'd fire every person in my area.. they screw up all the time..


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> I wonder how many Directv employee's are members of this forum?
> Before someone feeds me some Bull about Earl etc. Keep in mind that anybody can become a member, and they don't have to reveal they work for Directv.
> It's good to have Directv employee's on the forum but it also skews posts like this because it becomes personal.


No Bull, Earl works for DIRECTV.

Not every DIRECTV employee skews the results in the way you think .. From what I can tell any folks that actually post here tend to do so from a personal perspective and not from a DIRECTV corporate perspective.

That being said, honestly, there are very few folks that post if they are employed by DIRECTV. It is my understanding that they have strict guidelines that make it unappealing to join in any conversation directly.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> My advice to anybody who owns an HR2X is to get a second unit and have it mirror the important recordings of the first. Thats what I did and it helped me 90% of the way in getting my wife off my back.


Did you ever correct your Line-of-Site issues with the 119° Satellite?


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Tom Servo said:


> To be fair, 2 seconds adds up quickly if you're flipping between two channels. Like when you're keeping up with two different games on 'the sports leader'. So yeah, two seconds IS important.
> 
> If people aren't complaining that much about speed, it's because they've become accustomed to being annoyed. I remember boohooing about how slow the H20 (non-DVR) unit we got was compared to the Samsung IRD I used for years. But going back to it now in the spare bedroom, it's a lightning bolt compared to the HR series...
> 
> ...


I'd be willing to give you long odds that well over 90% would not. It might make you feel better to think you are in a majority, but if we want to consider the "truth of the matter", that aint it, and you aren't.

The fact that it takes 2 seconds to change channels is not a problem that needs fixing. A 2-second channel change is about as good as it will ever get in the digital world, and that is due to the basic nature of MPEG encoding. MPEG needs to process an entire GOP before spitting video out of the decoder, which for MPEG-4 can be as long as 200 frames (about 6.7 seconds). That's just the way it works. DTV inserts I-frames more often and cleverly bypasses the HDD for live viewing just to whittle that down to 2 seconds. Anything more would be impractical. This is the price you pay for HD, and for lots of HD channels delivered in real time. Suck it up.

I've got an analog cable converter that changes channels as fast as you can press the up button. You're welcome to it. Digital is different, and ironically enough, on balance it's still tremendous progress. People in hell want ice water, too. You have options; either complain somewhere else, zip it, or go back to analog TV if you don't like things at DTV. A little perspective might be in order. I get really weary of tolerating petty complaints just after reading how many american kids got their legs blown off in the middle east each day.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Stuart Sweet said:


> ...As far as targeted attacks directed at the engineering staff, I can say only that I have never met a group as dedicated to success as the DIRECTV engineers...


I think you are probably right. The improvement of the HR2x from inception until 12-15 months later is a first in the industry. Up until that time, DVR products came out and were either good or not so good. The good ones got slightly better over a long time, and the not so good ones also got only slightly better over a long time, never reaching the level of the good ones, however.

The HR20 was a completely different story. It came out as a dog, but the DTV engineers within a year or so improved it to the point where it was a true contender to the venerable Tivo HR10-250, which was one of the most advanced and sophisticated pieces of home theatre gear in history. I remember paying close to a grand for it, but still being completely knocked out by it. The DTV engineering staff did that by virtue of their skill and dedication, and by listening to the customers and the folks on this very forum. You really have to tip your hat to them. In many ways the HR2x has well surpassed the HR10-250 not even counting MPEG-4 capability. And let's not forget, it took Tivo a couple years (1998-2000) before they were producing products that were really worth having.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

WOW...just reading through the last dozen or so posts....and it almost makes me wonder if DirecTV can "fire" any of its customers....:grin::lol:

Geez...the hostility boggles the mind.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

TomCat said:


> The fact that it takes 2 seconds to change channels is not a problem that needs fixing. A 2-second channel change is about as good as it will ever get in the digital world, and that is due to the basic nature of MPEG encoding. MPEG needs to process an entire GOP before spitting video out of the decoder, which for MPEG-4 can be as long as 200 frames (about 6.7 seconds). That's just the way it works. DTV inserts I-frames more often and cleverly bypasses the HDD for live viewing just to whittle that down to 2 seconds. Anything more would be impractical. This is the price you pay for HD, and for lots of HD channels delivered in real time. Suck it up.


So when does it become a problem that needs fixing? My non-DVR HD receivers all clock in at around 2 seconds per channel change. Not great but if that's the best they can do it's tolerable.

I just timed the changes on the living room DVR. From Food HD to Fox HD, ~3.5 seconds. Fox HD to the Braves Channel, ~3 seconds. Braves to The 101 HD, damn near 6 seconds, with another three or four seconds of no remote respone. 101 HD to BBC-A, just about 3 seconds, not counting all the missed and messed up channel numbers from slow remote response.

That's changing channels directly. Triple those times if you're using the guide to change channels. I understand there's a certain limit to how fast these changes can be, but the software is tripping all over itself which slows things down unncessarily. And they're even longer if Media Share or TV Apps have been active, in my experience. Each one of those things leads to an eventual RBR because the system stops responding. Is 15 minutes a long enough delay to complain about, or should I just suck that up, too?? 

I'll say it again. The HD DVR is a dog. I don't know anyone else personally that's got one, but outside DBSTalk I've seen complaints of it even though people like the service otherwise. It's a dog next to the HD non-DVR receivers, and they're plodding compared to the older Sony and Samsung and DirecTV branded receivers, and even those are slow compared to my Channel Master DTV converter box. It still takes a moment to aquire the signal, but the software surrounding that is lightning fast.

I'm not saying the DVR should be as fast as a simple cheap DTV box, but it should at least have some reasonable approximation of speed when all the features are being used. What's the point of Media Share and all that if it causes so much slowdown?



> I get really weary of tolerating petty complaints just after reading how many american kids got their legs blown off in the middle east each day.


If you want to talk about politics, go sign up at _Neutral Underground_. This is talk about _DirecTV_. I think it's a legitimate complaint to kvetch about the speed. You may be right that most folks wouldn't care about the slow response and buggy software. That may well be the case. But most folks would probably be okay driving a Pinto or a Chevy Monza and see no reason for shoulder belts and airbags, either.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> None of those individuals are DIRECTV employees, but you knew that.


You sure of that?


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## denvertrakker (Feb 6, 2009)

mjbvideo said:


> Don't you think managements decision to go back to TIVO is a red flag? If all was fine and dandy with their in-house system then why would they go back to Tivo? Perhaps I'm being way too simplistic with this but to me it looks like a vote of no or diminishing confidence in their HR 2x series software and/or hardware.


Has it occurred to anyone that D* is playing nice with Tivo to avoid getting in the same hot water as Dish has with Tivo? It's gotten beyond being slapped on the wrist by the courts; Dish may be in serious trouble, DVR-wise.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

mjbvideo said:


> Don't you think managements decision to go back to TIVO is a red flag?


First, I don't think it is accurate to say there was a "management decision to go back to Tivo". There was a decision to include an mpeg4 Tivo product in the product offerings. There are a great many possible reasons for doing this, perhaps most importantly is to offer a niche product to a core group of customers who have emphatically stated they want it.

We do not know the contractual relationship between DirecTV and Tivo with regard to the new HD Tivo DVR, but I would guess that it is probably such that Tivo is assuming any risk involved in bringing this product to market (i.e., if it is not successful, it is Tivo's loss, not DirecTV's).

Further, there have been absolutely no indications that DirecTV intends to replace the HR2x series with the Tivo product. In fact, all indications are that the HR2x series will continue to grow in features and capabilities.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Ken S said:


> DirecTV is doing no such thing. They are doing everything they can to maximize their profitability. That's their goal and it controls what level of equipment they deliver, what features they offer and what type of customer service they provide. Of course, a corporation is made up of individuals and can from time to time veer from that ultimate goal...both to the positive and negative from a customer perspective, but those monthly/quarterly numbers and quotas quickly remind employees to get back in line.
> 
> Your comment about ALL of the engineers being passionate and caring about the people they touch is a bit far-fetched. You don't really believe that do you?


You do realize the inherent truth that a happy customer will stay a customer.. therefore making customers happy is absolutely a major factor in anything they do by default, because it directly adds to the bottom line... They are adding features that they believe will make potential and current customers HAPPY.. and therefore continue to be, or become directv cutrsomers....

I think the most difficult thing, is when you are adding so much to a complex system, you are bound to create new issues along the way.. The question then must become, at what point do you get a perfect NR out there, with almost no issues, and then give longer spans between NR's as you develop new features, and only release them after you have gone through longer testing periods.. There must be a balance, and I believe that if we look closely, the time periods have increased between NR's that are more than simple fixes, as the last NR was...

In fact, you have to go back to Feb to find the last MAJOR addition of new features. The past 3 have been more of patches than anything.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

carl6 said:


> First, I don't think it is accurate to say there was a "management decision to go back to Tivo". There was a decision to include an mpeg4 Tivo product in the product offerings. There are a great many possible reasons for doing this, perhaps most importantly is to offer a niche product to a core group of customers who have emphatically stated they want it.
> 
> We do not know the contractual relationship between DirecTV and Tivo with regard to the new HD Tivo DVR, but I would guess that it is probably such that Tivo is assuming any risk involved in bringing this product to market (i.e., if it is not successful, it is Tivo's loss, not DirecTV's).
> 
> Further, there have been absolutely no indications that DirecTV intends to replace the HR2x series with the Tivo product. In fact, all indications are that the HR2x series will continue to grow in features and capabilities.


People looking at the Tivo deal as anything other than Tivo trying to gain more business aren't paying attention...

And People thinking tivo is grand and perfect are probably in for a very rude awakening if you look at Tivos performance on releasing new products over the last several years.....

There is no way Directv is using tivo for anything other than a second possible more expensive option for people that just have to have the particular gui.... They'd be stupid to even consider slowing the development of the HR's ever.. And I don't think they will.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> You do realize the inherent truth that a happy customer will stay a customer.. therefore making customers happy is absolutely a major factor in anything they do by default, because it directly adds to the bottom line... They are adding features that they believe will make potential and current customers HAPPY.. and therefore continue to be, or become directv cutrsomers.....


It's not an inherent truth...it's not a truth at all. Customers that are happy will move to different vendors even ones that are not as good if the cost is lower. DirecTV like many others is trying to keep the right amount of customers just satisfied enough to not switch to another vendor...they call it customer retention.

Customer satisfaction does not add to the bottom line it is really a cost center. They spend money on development, marketing, promotion, customer service, etc. in order to meet revenue generation and cost reduction goals and satisfy customers.

DirecTV will lose almost 2,000,000 subscribers to voluntary churn this year alone. I'll bet they could keep a large percentage of them if they wanted. It would be foolish and cost them more than it is worth, but it could be done. Their voluntary churn number really hasn't moved much over the years...they barely even talk about it during financial meetings even though it will cost them almost $1.5 billion to replace those customers with new subs.

They put features in to drive revenue...yes...customer satisfaction with the product is part of that, but direct revenue generation is a bigger factor followed closely by cost reductions. When they get lucky a feature may hit on one of those factors AND make customers happier. MRV for instance could make their customers happier and reduce the number of DVRs they have to install into their average four-room setup. SWM on the other hand probably didn't add a lot of customer satisfaction (most people don't know what it is), but did/will reduce installation costs significantly.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

Much has been said about the speed of the HR2x. I don't care if it takes 3 seconds to tune from ESPNHD to Fox News. That does not bother me. I understand that is digital and that is a DVR and no big deal.

What is a big deal is if I am trying to look for a show to watch and I try to scroll the guide and it takes multiple button pushes before the receiver gets the notice that I want to scroll down one page. There _should_ be no real reason that scrolling the guide on a HR2x is so much slower than scrolling the guide on a H23. If there is, please enlighten me. You're just looking at the guide, not doing some DVR function.

What is a big deal is fast forwarding through the commercials on O'Reilly and having to push play multiple times for it to come out of FF and then having to back up. Or how about the "what did he say" situation? You hit go back 8 seconds and it doesn't do it. You hit it again and it goes back 16 seconds because it was so delayed at getting the command in the first place.

The above situations exist for me no matter the software version on my receiver. And like I said somewhere before, if the TiVo based receiver is any bit faster at doing these basic functions, bye bye HR22-100. I know they are working on it and they really want to improve the speed. That has been said by Mr. Sweet and Mr. Brott many times. The engineers have come out with some cool stuff lately and I don't think it's their fault for the flaws we are seeing. There is something more at play (IMHO) when you read that HR20's are faster than HR22's. One would think it would be the other way around simply due to age.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

denvertrakker said:


> Has it occurred to anyone that D* is playing nice with Tivo to avoid getting in the same hot water as Dish has with Tivo? It's gotten beyond being slapped on the wrist by the courts; Dish may be in serious trouble, DVR-wise.


Yes, this has occurred to me .. The current plan of record between TiVo and DIRECTV is pretty much a no-litigation clause. They've both agreed to go on their merry way within certain boundaries.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> :lol: Are we ever really humble in stating our opinion. IMHO is sh$$.


I've always thought that acronym was an oxymoron. The only folks on the formum that are humble are those desperately asking for help. Of course, now we will be getting all kinds of posts from people saying they meant "honest", not "humble". *Armophob* I'll believe, anybody else probably won't convince me.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

SledDog said:


> If everyone posted like you, had the same opinion as you, or the same beliefs as you, this would be a very boring place.


You think his posts are boring? Huh. I've always enjoyed his posts. Usually concise and on point. Reread that last statement of yours. Kinda nasty, no?

This IS a terrible time to bring up the subject of firing people. And the TS did it blatantly and without cause. Glad someone took him to task.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> If the TiVo based receiver when it comes out is significantly faster than the HR2x, I'm moving to it. Guide speed in the HR22-100 is pitiful no matter what firmware is on it.


I'm sure the majority of members know how I feel about any HR that ends in 100. I did have one 22 and it lasted a couple of months, but the complaint I had with it had nothing to do with speed. It was as fast as any of my 21s (the 22 is still a 21, no matter what they call it) and had a superb RF sensor.

If you have a problem with speed, several things can be at fault. First, and most important, is the feed from the dish to the HR. Another thing is the capacity of your HDD.

Look at it this way: Suppose your car said clearly on the dashboard readouts and the manual that only premium gas should be used and you dump a full tank of regular into it. Is it the car's fault that it doesn't run properly or your fault for putting the wrong gas in it?

Try having your "system" checked, the dish alignment, the LNBs, the cables, etc. My "system", the dish to the HR, is good and I have no problems with speed.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mjbvideo said:


> Don't you think managements decision to go back to TIVO is a red flag? If all was fine and dandy with their in-house system then why would they go back to Tivo? Perhaps I'm being way too simplistic with this but to me it looks like a vote of no or diminishing confidence in their HR 2x series software and/or hardware.


So that they could use TiVo's proprietary technology to make their HRs better?

Rich


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## GBFAN (Nov 13, 2006)

From reading the posts on this thread, I'm sure glad I use my DVR to record shows to watch. If I had to change channels all the time I might have had a coronary event because of all the stress.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

GBFAN said:


> From reading the posts on this thread, I'm sure glad I use my DVR to record shows to watch. If I had to change channels all the time I might have had a coronary event because of all the stress.


I stopped channel surfing a long time ago. Seems to put undue stress on the HRs. Not the best answer, but one that works.

Rich


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## BillyT2008 (Mar 26, 2008)

I was the biggest skeptic going on TivoForums.com when DirecTV was creating their own DVR to compete with my beloved TIVO. You know what. I've had my HR2x for years now with very little trouble. I'm really impressed with everything they got right. So, in my opinion as a software developer myself, kudos to the DirecTV engineering team for keeping me happy for the past few years.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I stopped channel surfing a long time ago. Seems to put undue stress on the HRs. Not the best answer, but one that works.
> 
> Rich


Wow, I channel surf constantly. 

I couldn't imagine just choosing something and sticking with it. :eek2:

Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> Wow, I channel surf constantly.
> 
> I couldn't imagine just choosing something and sticking with it. :eek2:
> 
> Mike


I rarely watch live TV, so it's easy for me.

Rich


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## BillyT2008 (Mar 26, 2008)

I almost never watch live TV or advertising anymore. I haven't since I first got a DVR in the late 1990s.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BillyT2008 said:


> I almost never watch live TV or advertising anymore. I haven't since I first got a DVR in the late 1990s.


I've been time shifting since the middle '80s and haven't watched a live show in so long...I can't remember actually watching a live show. The DVRs are really wonderful, so much better than having 12 VCRs and bins of blank cassettes and keeping logs of what's recording on which cassette.

Rich


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Wow, I channel surf constantly.
> 
> I couldn't imagine just choosing something and sticking with it. :eek2:
> 
> Mike


Actually, I lost my interest in channel surfing for two reasons:

1. The PIG works very well to keep me aware of what is going on (like the confirmation hearing at the moment), while I can explore what is on other channels both now and in the future. Changing channels gives me very little info compared to the guide. With the guide I can see what is on, what the plot summary is, and what is coming. When I change channels, I have no idea what is going on for several minutes. For me, channel surfing is very inefficient and unappealing. In other words, having a well structured (albeit non-HD) Guide is much more useful than channel surfing. I Guide surf!

2. When I got my first DVR, I discovered how slow changing channels was compared to a non-DVR box. This encouraged me to look in the Guide. Once I discovered how well this worked for me (after they got PIG, because some early boxes didn't have this feature), I stopped caring about channel surfing, and to a lesser extent, how fast a channel change happened.

This is just further illustration of how differently various people actually use these boxes.


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## paulsown (Sep 18, 2007)

A quick note about the original topic........

I just dropped off an R15 at my local FedEx office for return in the Directv box because it stopped working. In chatting with the employee there, she said that she sees MANY returns to Directv (she was very emphatic that it was a large number), and that a family member was having problems. In fact, she said that she advises people to keep the boxes the receivers come in so that they can send them back quicker when they break (Directv will just send a label).

She offered this info without any leading from me, she is just another unhappy customer.

This was not in a large metropolitan area, rather, it was in Tyler, Texas, pop 97,000. What were the stats offered by some on here for failure rates?


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Yes Doug, it's not perfect but the signal on 119 is now good enough.

My problems are not so much with constant reboots anymore (for this update), it's the messed up recordings that are now more annoying. For instance the other day I set it to record 5 Movies over a 1 week period, of the 5 movies 2 of them had a recording length of only 45 minutes, for some reason the recording started in the middle of the movie and then there are the Briiiip recordings:nono2:
Because these are just movies it's no big deal but man is it painfull when it's Sports or a TV series, that's why with those type of recordings I always set both DVR to record and pray that at least one of them comes through!
.



Doug Brott said:


> Did you ever correct your Line-of-Site issues with the 119° Satellite?


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Stuart while I agree that the engineering staff may be dedicated, there is definitely a problem in the loop! I bet the problem is one of the items on the following list.

1) The engineers are dedicated and hard working but they are over there heads with the complexity of the problem and don't really know what they are doing.

2) Somebody at the Top keeps forcing them to add more features when they still have not worked out the bugs on the basic code.

3) The Hardware is just under powered for what they are trying to do and some one at the top is not listening.

I also think your .01% of people figure is way way way off 
That number is probably the one that Directv uses for PR purposes, it's based on using all 13 or 20 million customers and looking at how many complaints they have gotten. I have two old Hughes receivers; they have never given me any problems from day one.

In the Real world we are talking about how many HR2X customers are having problems. I would bet that number is more like 20-25% of people. I base that looking at my group of friends and how many of them have had HR2X problems and also the online user reviews like CNet and judging from the attitude of all the installers I have met.

The installers have gone from treating the HD-DVR like Jee Wiz Tech toy Gold to now being the greatest pain in the Arse ever. The last guy I met took me out to the Van and showed me about two dozen HD-DVR's that where removed and exchanged. Anyway lets just say he had nothing very good to say about them and thought the older receivers where much better.



Stuart Sweet said:


> snip
> -
> -
> As far as targeted attacks directed at the engineering staff, I can say only that I have never met a group as dedicated to success as the DIRECTV engineers.
> ...


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

hasan said:


> Actually, I lost my interest in channel surfing for two reasons:
> 
> 1. The PIG works very well to keep me aware of what is going on (like the confirmation hearing at the moment), while I can explore what is on other channels both now and in the future. Changing channels gives me very little info compared to the guide. With the guide I can see what is on, what the plot summary is, and what is coming. When I change channels, I have no idea what is going on for several minutes. For me, channel surfing is very inefficient and unappealing. In other words, having a well structured (albeit non-HD) Guide is much more useful than channel surfing. I Guide surf!
> 
> ...


I gave up on channel surfing when I owned a BUD...that was slow . I do miss it a bit after using cable for awhile...but I've managed to survive.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Oh I know Earl works for DirecTV.
What I meant by my statement is that some people say
"Well if they work for Directv they are not on the forum, because Earl left once he got the Job".
I just want people to know that there is nothing Directv can do about an Employee going home and logging on under and anonymous name and saying what they want, it's simple freedom of speech, and so long as they don't give away any company secrets there's nothing Directv can do about it! I will go further and say based on employee support to date, I am pretty sure they don't want to do anything about it.



Doug Brott said:


> No Bull, Earl works for DIRECTV.
> 
> Not every DIRECTV employee skews the results in the way you think .. From what I can tell any folks that actually post here tend to do so from a personal perspective and not from a DIRECTV corporate perspective.
> 
> That being said, honestly, there are very few folks that post if they are employed by DIRECTV. It is my understanding that they have strict guidelines that make it unappealing to join in any conversation directly.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

You probably had a Motorola 922  They are slow as crap but we had no choice.

I remember when I had a Tracker V and Tracker VIII. Now those receivers changed channels etc. like lightening. Makes even a Directv Hughes receiver look like a turtle.



Ken S said:


> I gave up on channel surfing when I owned a BUD...that was slow . I do miss it a bit after using cable for awhile...but I've managed to survive.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Oh I know Earl works for DirecTV.
> 
> I just want people to know that there is nothing Directv can do about an Employee going home and logging on under and anonymous name and saying what they want, it's simple freedom of speech, and so long as they don't give away any company secrets there's nothing Directv can do about it!.


That is very bad legal advice, and I caution anyone to check their state laws before choosing to ignore an employer mandate regarding internet activity (even at home).

Not that it matters to most dbstalkers, but any employer (other than a governmental body) is permitted to condition employment on anything they want (as long as it does not infringe on a protected class status). D* is perfectly within their rights (should they so choose) to say: No participation in satellite forums, if they like. There is *no free speech protection except from the government*. The government cannot limit free speech (except in a few specific areas like screaming fire in a crowded theater). Employers (non-governmental), in fact, can and do. They can tell you what to wear, what you may or may not say in the work place, what kind of conduct you can engage in away from work, (with very few restraints on this power), whether you can be a smoker, or even if they don't like your hair style. (in an employment-at-will state)

I hear a lot of people babble on about free speech. It has nearly no legal standing in the private employment environment. Check the case law, it's very clear. (some states are more intrusive than others with respect to employee rights, but none of them grant employees the rights you mention above.)

Unless you can make it fit into one of the following categories, it ain't protected:

1. Race
2. Ethnicity
3. Religion
4. Disability
5. Sexual Orientation
6. Gender
7. Age

There are some public policy exceptions, such as voting rights, etc. (but participating in dbstalk isn't one of them).

So, before asserting a right you probably don't have and lose your job, get good legal advice first. Free speech sounds nice, but it's not as free as many seem to think.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> If you have a problem with speed, several things can be at fault. First, and most important, is the feed from the dish to the HR. Another thing is the capacity of your HDD.
> 
> Try having your "system" checked, the dish alignment, the LNBs, the cables, etc. My "system", the dish to the HR, is good and I have no problems with speed.


I think I can rule out two of those. The cabling is new as of early March when I was still troubleshooting my D-TiVo. The HDD is 94% or so free.

I think the dish needs to be peaked on a nice clear day. I may drag an old TV outside and do that one day. The only thing I cannot check is the LNB. I don't have another one laying around like I did with the 18" dish I had.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

hasan said:


> Unless you can make it fit into one of the following categories, it ain't protected:
> 
> 1. Race
> 2. Ethnicity
> ...


8. Vietnam Veterans

Sexual Orientation is not a federally protected class.

*and age is only protected over 40.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Oh I know Earl works for DirecTV.
> What I meant by my statement is that some people say
> "Well if they work for Directv they are not on the forum, because Earl left once he got the Job".
> I just want people to know that there is nothing Directv can do about an Employee going home and logging on under and anonymous name and saying what they want, it's simple freedom of speech, and so long as they don't give away any company secrets there's nothing Directv can do about it! I will go further and say based on employee support to date, I am pretty sure they don't want to do anything about it.


Actually, sir, you seem to misunderstand the law. If your job requires that you handle confidential information, and you willingly put yourself in a situation where dissemination of that information is inevitable over time, you can absolutely be fired.

DIRECTV employees are prohibited from participating at web sites like this one and sadly, I know that action has been taken against them in the past.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

rich584 said:


> If you have a problem with speed, several things can be at fault. First, and most important, is the feed from the dish to the HR. Another thing is the capacity of your HDD.


I know in my case it was all new cabling from the new dish to the receivers when I moved into the house. And the HDD is about 72% free. I've had it down in the single digits before and never noticed a slowdown due to it being full.

A new "bug" crept up tonight. While watching a recorded show, I tried to stop the program using the exit button, then the stop button. Both produced the dreaded "bump" sound and wouldn't stop the playing program_!_ Pausing, FF, REW? All worked. The only way I could stop it was by going to the program list and starting a new show.

The speed issues make me mad, but little gremlins like that just make me :lol:...


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## kramer (Jun 6, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Oh I know Earl works for DirecTV.
> What I meant by my statement is that some people say
> "Well if they work for Directv they are not on the forum, because Earl left once he got the Job".
> I just want people to know that there is nothing Directv can do about an Employee going home and logging on under and anonymous name and saying what they want, it's simple freedom of speech, and so long as they don't give away any company secrets there's nothing Directv can do about it! I will go further and say based on employee support to date, I am pretty sure they don't want to do anything about it.


Your joking right! If not you have never worked in corporate America.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Yes Doug, it's not perfect but the signal on 119 is now good enough.
> 
> My problems are not so much with constant reboots anymore (for this update), it's the messed up recordings that are now more annoying. For instance the other day I set it to record 5 Movies over a 1 week period, of the 5 movies 2 of them had a recording length of only 45 minutes, for some reason the recording started in the middle of the movie and then there are the Briiiip recordings:nono2:
> Because these are just movies it's no big deal but man is it painfull when it's Sports or a TV series, that's why with those type of recordings I always set both DVR to record and pray that at least one of them comes through!
> .


Looks like you still have signal issues...


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

All I record are movies and unless storms are causing a signal issue, I can't tell you how long it has been since I've had a problem.

My wife records some TV series and she has no problems, either.

I can't help but think that a lot of those returns the post office sees are unnecessary, with the real problem being something in the customer's dish, cabling, power fluctuations, etc. Not all of them, of course, but the only receiver I've had to return for technical reasons had smoke coming out of it!


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> 8. Vietnam Veterans
> 
> Sexual Orientation is not a federally protected class.
> 
> *and age is only protected over 40.


Additional Age discrimination is prohibited in many states (including this one, and it starts at *18*.) The point remains the same, employers have a lot more purview than the poster indicated. Veterans are not a protected class in the traditional sense, but may be covered under the exception I noted as "public policy", as in voting.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> You probably had a Motorola 922  They are slow as crap but we had no choice.
> 
> I remember when I had a Tracker V and Tracker VIII. Now those receivers changed channels etc. like lightening. Makes even a Directv Hughes receiver look like a turtle.


No, I had HTS a Tracker V. I'm talking about changing channels that required a dish move.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

Interesting letter to the editor in today's SkyREPORT. Here's a snippet:



> During the past year, my experience dealing with DIRECTV has been very disappointing. Hardware failures, lack of interest from customer care representatives, increasing fees and service charges, and mistakes on my bills have combined to cause me to decide to quit using DIRECTV and switch over to FIOS. This was a tough decision given my background with the company.


Hardware failures. Now I wonder who'd be responsible for the hardware? 

BTW this is from John McKee, who in 1992 was part of the senior management team that founded DirecTV.


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## BreezeCJ (Jan 8, 2007)

My only continuing complaint is the slow channel changing. It's been a problem for years with these HD-DVRs, to the point where I just accept it.

Lately, I've been having an issue with my e-Sata drive cable falling out of the connection on the back of the receiver. It's not like the rack of electronics move around all day. I don't understand why it keeps falling out.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually, sir, you seem to misunderstand the law. If your job requires that you handle confidential information, and you willingly put yourself in a situation where dissemination of that information is inevitable over time, you can absolutely be fired.
> 
> DIRECTV employees are prohibited from participating at web sites like this one and sadly, I know that action has been taken against them in the past.


Stuart,

Actually, you're all mostly wrong. 
Almost every employee in the United States is an "At Will" employee. While there are now some protections mostly for discrimination and limitations the basic rule is...

Any hiring is presumed to be "at will"; that is, the employer is free to discharge individuals "for good cause, or bad cause, or no cause at all," and the employee is equally free to quit, strike, or otherwise cease work.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> Interesting letter to the editor in today's SkyREPORT. Here's a snippet:
> 
> Hardware failures. Now I wonder who'd be responsible for the hardware?
> 
> BTW this is from John McKee, who in 1992 was part of the senior management team that founded DirecTV.


The hardware is the responsibility of the manufacturer...no?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Stuart,
> 
> Actually, you're all mostly wrong.
> Almost every employee in the United States is an "At Will" employee. While there are now some protections mostly for discrimination and limitations the basic rule is...
> ...


Ken .. Your statements seem to be a superset of what Stuart stated .. I'm not quite sure what you've said makes Stuart's comments wrong .. :shrug:


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Tom Servo said:


> Interesting letter to the editor in today's SkyREPORT. Here's a snippet:
> 
> Hardware failures. Now I wonder who'd be responsible for the hardware?
> 
> BTW this is from John McKee, who in 1992 was part of the senior management team that founded DirecTV.


Wasn't he actually fired? Or am I thinking of someone else....


----------



## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Stuart,
> 
> Actually, you're all mostly wrong.
> Almost every employee in the United States is an "At Will" employee. While there are now some protections mostly for discrimination and limitations the basic rule is...
> ...


You obviously don't live in California, because AT will means Jack S*** here.. You can't do anything even slightly off kilter as an employee here when it comes to things like that without getting into trouble, of course, it also takes a massive act of god to fire anyone.. At will does not exist in California, even though its on the books. Not with all the employee rights and opportunities for unemployment with companies picking up the expenses if they can't prove there was a good reason to fire them... It a major workaround that needs to be fixed big time.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Ken S said:


> The hardware is the responsibility of the manufacturer...no?


Partly. But they are contractors who are building to DirecTV's specifications...and I'm not convinced that the HR2x series (especially the models after the HR20-700) aren't a bit underpowered for the software features that are being implemented. Cost-cutting taken a bit too far. I'd pay a premium for better hardware, personally -- but I know that DirecTV is up against consumer expectations of "free" installs and nearly-free up-front hardware costs.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> I think I can rule out two of those. The cabling is new as of early March when I was still troubleshooting my D-TiVo. The HDD is 94% or so free.
> 
> I think the dish needs to be peaked on a nice clear day. I may drag an old TV outside and do that one day. The only thing I cannot check is the LNB. I don't have another one laying around like I did with the 18" dish I had.


So, you don't have the Protection Plan? They would do that for you. That dish alignment is so critical and the installers have those digital meters to do it with.

Are your connections crimped or compression? That seemed to make a big difference when I had my system redone and all the connectors were changed to compression.

Just properly tightening connectors makes a huge difference. Not finger tight, wrench tight, gently.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> I know in my case it was all new cabling from the new dish to the receivers when I moved into the house. And the HDD is about 72% free. I've had it down in the single digits before and never noticed a slowdown due to it being full.
> 
> A new "bug" crept up tonight. While watching a recorded show, I tried to stop the program using the exit button, then the stop button. Both produced the dreaded "bump" sound and wouldn't stop the playing program_!_ Pausing, FF, REW? All worked. The only way I could stop it was by going to the program list and starting a new show.
> 
> The speed issues make me mad, but little gremlins like that just make me :lol:...


I have a 21-700 that has been used on all kinds of tests and had "bad" equipment attached to it and it does things like that all the time. Today it was a double recording of a documentary one day apart. That shouldn't happen.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BreezeCJ said:


> My only continuing complaint is the slow channel changing. It's been a problem for years with these HD-DVRs, to the point where I just accept it.
> 
> Lately, I've been having an issue with my e-Sata drive cable falling out of the connection on the back of the receiver. It's not like the rack of electronics move around all day. I don't understand why it keeps falling out.


Gremlins! Think you might need a new cable? Hope it's that simple.

Rich


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Ken .. Your statements seem to be a superset of what Stuart stated .. I'm not quite sure what you've said makes Stuart's comments wrong .. :shrug:


Doug,

Because people, and I unfairly singled out Stuart, were implying there were more protections afforded employees than there are. That's wrong. People really need to understand the basics of at-will employment. The protections are few and far between...although the process of investigation of violations can make an employer very careful.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> You obviously don't live in California, because AT will means Jack S*** here.. You can't do anything even slightly off kilter as an employee here when it comes to things like that without getting into trouble, of course, it also takes a massive act of god to fire anyone.. At will does not exist in California, even though its on the books. Not with all the employee rights and opportunities for unemployment with companies picking up the expenses if they can't prove there was a good reason to fire them... It a major workaround that needs to be fixed big time.


California is more liberal than many states on the matter, but for the type of matter we're discussing here they are also very protective of a company's trade secrets and there have been many decisions coming down on the side of companies that were seeking to enforce their rights and protect their property.

This has gotten way off topic (although it did mention firing people)...we can discuss it elsewhere if you like.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

As I said, and I stand by it, if you come to this forum and sign up under an anonymous NAME and never declare that you work for Directv you will not have a problems because no one is looking for you! Especially if the only thing you ever do is post how great the service is and that you never have any problems. If you start to do something other than that, then you may have problems.

I am pretty sure employees from Dishnetwork are also on this forum doing the exact same thing.



Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually, sir, you seem to misunderstand the law. If your job requires that you handle confidential information, and you willingly put yourself in a situation where dissemination of that information is inevitable over time, you can absolutely be fired.
> 
> DIRECTV employees are prohibited from participating at web sites like this one and sadly, I know that action has been taken against them in the past.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Nope!!
You dont need a signal in the 90's to make this thing work, a signal of even 55 is fine on almost any satellite. My 119 is blocked by a neighbors tree but I negotiated some trimming and I now have an OK signal in the 60's on 119.

In any case that has nothing to do with half way recorded shows and Briiiips, since I dont watch any stations on 119.



inkahauts said:


> Looks like you still have signal issues...


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> DirecTV is up against consumer expectations of "free" installs and nearly-free up-front hardware costs.


Naturally, the cable company might charge $30 for installation and nothing more. Oh wait, they have that fee for a remote control and each box. But still it's not $200 up front which is all us end users see. 


rich584 said:


> So, you don't have the Protection Plan?
> 
> Are your connections crimped or compression?
> 
> Just properly tightening connectors makes a huge difference. Not finger tight, wrench tight, gently.


No protection plan yet. But I do need to call D* to cancel or negotiate NFLST. Is there a waiting period before using the PP? Before I get accused of trying to get something for less in regard to NFLST, let me say the follwing: $380 for NFL games is too expensive for just me. I can go to a bar for less. Though the deals being mentioned elsewhere would make NFLST attractive again.

My connections are all compression. The connections at the dish are what the installer put on and the rest are snap-n-seals. The connections at the dish are wrench tight but the ones at the BBC's and receiver are finger tight.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Tallgntlmn said:


> Is there a waiting period before using the PP?


30 days, I believe.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> As I said, and I stand by it, if you come to this forum and sign up under an anonymous NAME and never declare that you work for Directv you will not have a problems because no one is looking for you! Especially if the only thing you ever do is post how great the service is and that you never have any problems. If you start to do something other than that, then you may have problems.
> 
> I am pretty sure employees from Dishnetwork are also on this forum doing the exact same thing.


Actually, they may have a problem...

http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=109862


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> As I said, and I stand by it, if you come to this forum and sign up under an anonymous NAME and never declare that you work for Directv you will not have a problems because no one is looking for you! Especially if the only thing you ever do is post how great the service is and that you never have any problems.


Actually those people would be classified as Trolls.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> As I said, and I stand by it, if you come to this forum and sign up under an anonymous NAME and never declare that you work for Directv you will not have a problems because no one is looking for you! Especially if the only thing you ever do is post how great the service is and that you never have any problems. If you start to do something other than that, then you may have problems.
> 
> I am pretty sure employees from Dishnetwork are also on this forum doing the exact same thing.


So I guess you must work for Dish Network and are coming on here to sabotage the reputation of DirecTV.

I don't really think that, I'm just sayin...

We believe you when you say your system has problems, why can't you believe us when we say ours do not?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> So I guess you must work for Dish Network and are coming on here to sabotage the reputation of DirecTV.
> 
> I don't really think that, I'm just sayin...
> 
> We believe you when you say your system has problems, why can't you believe us when we say ours do not?


I can't speak for anyone else, but I can believe you when you say you have no problems.

But, I don't actually care. Mine doesn't work in an acceptable manner and mine is the only one I really care about on a personal level. It has been 'tested by a senior tech' according to Direct and the installation is up to snuff. Of course, in the contractor set up that Direct uses, 'senior tech' means someone who has worked more than a month! In this case, my 'senior tech' had been working at it for about 6 months. Nearly a career!

But yet, the HR21-700 I have is dog slow, doesn't respond to the remote efficiently and skips to end when I don't want it to. It also brrrrpps occasionally, but I'm not concerned about that as it is a known issue showing up on cable and the other sat provider too.

I'm literally at the point where I'm about 2 clicks away from moving away from Direct, regardless of contract issues.

IMO, the HR series of HDDVRs are just about at the level of a 2nd beta test of an iffy design. I read here about how the programmers and engineers are all very dedicated, and I have no reason to not believe that. But frankly, I don't care about their dedication, I care about their competency. And that, imo, is seriously in doubt!

I can say that if my computers worked as badly as the HR21 I have now, and the 4 HR20's I had swapped through in the first couple of months, they would be sitting in the closet with the rest of the dead gear.

This isn't brain surgery. Install dish, point in the right direction and run 2 damn wires. Everything else is inside the HR and that is where the bulk of the issues lie.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> As I said, and I stand by it, if you come to this forum and sign up under an anonymous NAME and never declare that you work for Directv you will not have a problems because no one is looking for you! Especially if the only thing you ever do is post how great the service is and that you never have any problems. If you start to do something other than that, then you may have problems.
> 
> I am pretty sure employees from Dishnetwork are also on this forum doing the exact same thing.


Here is what it appears you are "standing by" with your comments:

Knowingly violating the trust of an employer and the conditions of employment.

If a person isn't trustworthy and doesn't abide by commitments they agreed to by taking the job, and it doesn't bother them, (because no one knows about it), more's the pity.

Let's not forget (and it is the only reason I posted a response in the first place) that you have been *advising* others to violate the trust of their employer and put their job at risk, not to mention compromise their integrity.

It's one thing to make those kind of choices for yourself, but to actually advise others to follow this example is, at best, cavalier.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> No protection plan yet. But I do need to call D* to cancel or negotiate NFLST. Is there a waiting period before using the PP?


Don't know if there is a waiting period. If there is, the faster you call, the better off you are. I've had it from the get-go and I've used it extensively. I think it is well worth the money. A lot of people disagree with that, but I would have been out a thousand bucks or more just since I got my first HR.



> My connections are all compression. The connections at the dish are what the installer put on and the rest are snap-n-seals. The connections at the dish are wrench tight but the ones at the BBC's and receiver are finger tight.


You might want to gently snug them up with a wrench. They have a tendancy to back off a bit if they are not snugged up. I was having a sudden problem with my 20-700s randomly rebooting and I was asked in a PM by a mod if I had snugged up all my fittings and when I checked them all, I found that the ground block that had just been installed had fittings that were loose. Tightening them stopped the random reboots. Might seem like a royal pain to run around the house with a 7/16 open end wrench and check each fitting, but it's worth it.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> 30 days, I believe.


I think they charge about $15 to join after the fact, too.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but I can believe you when you say you have no problems.


I've had HRs since the fall of '06 and I don't think I've ever been without problems of some sort.



> But, I don't actually care. Mine doesn't work in an acceptable manner and mine is the only one I really care about on a personal level. It has been 'tested by a senior tech' according to Direct and the installation is up to snuff. Of course, in the contractor set up that Direct uses, 'senior tech' means someone who has worked more than a month! In this case, my 'senior tech' had been working at it for about 6 months. Nearly a career!


Generally speaking, I don't believe that there are many folks working for D* that could be called techs. Much less Senior techs.



> But yet, the HR21-700 I have is dog slow, doesn't respond to the remote efficiently and skips to end when I don't want it to.


It should not be "slow", which is pretty subjective and depends on what you're comparing it to. But just compared to a 20-700, the 21s are noticeably slower. I would be running around checking all my connections for tightness and getting my dish aligned if I had problems like that.



> IMO, the HR series of HDDVRs are just about at the level of a 2nd beta test of an iffy design.


Gotta disagree with you on that. The unfortunate thing is that D* produced it's best HR, the 20-700, first and the decline in performance in the following HRs is noticeable. But not that bad, not enough to really complain about. I'd be willing to bet that you have a problem with your "system", the feed from the dish to the HR.



> I read here about how the programmers and engineers are all very dedicated, and I have no reason to not believe that. But frankly, I don't care about their dedication, I care about their competency. And that, imo, is seriously in doubt!


The programmers we had were all contractors and they were dedicated to keeping their jobs. That's the beauty of using contractors or "consultants", if they don't fulfill their job requirements a company can just let them go. Not so easy with employees. In NJ, and I think that it is a federal thing, not a state thing, you need much documentation and proof that "action plans" have been given to the employee that he/she has not lived up to. The process takes at least six months. If it's a case of an employee selling or giving away proprietary info, and can be proved conclusively, that is reason for instant termination.

Are they competent? Another subjective question. And another difficult reason to fire an employee. Who do you get to judge a programmer's competency? Another programmer. See the problem there?

That said, my car's a computer on wheels and I don't think the programmers who worked on the software for it would stoop to the level of a D* programmer. How hard can it be to write the coding for a DVR compared to a car?



> I can say that if my computers worked as badly as the HR21 I have now, and the 4 HR20's I had swapped through in the first couple of months, they would be sitting in the closet with the rest of the dead gear.
> 
> This isn't brain surgery. Install dish, point in the right direction and run 2 damn wires. Everything else is inside the HR and that is where the bulk of the issues lie.


It is more than that. There should be more training for the installers, they are the ones that cause a lot of the problems that we see. Installing a 5LNB dish is more than screwing the base to the roof and pointing the dish in about the right direction. It does take a bit of skill and the ability to use a digital meter to ensure proper alignment.

I understand your frustration, and I hope you get your problems resolved, but I really doubt that the majority of problems lie in the HRs themselves. So many little things can be screwed up in the feeds to the HRs. Things that you wouldn't expect to affect the performance of the HRs, but they do.

Rich


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Sorry for not replying inline. On my Mac running Safari, multi-quote doesn't seem to work.

All connections have been tightened and checked. By the original installer, by the 'senior tech' that came when I was having the 771 tuner 2 issue on HR20 after HR20, and by me. The cabling was all brand new cable.

All my signal strengths are very strong and rain fade isn't an issue.

As to what I compare speed to, well the Dish Vip622 HDDVR. Compared to it, the HR21-700 I have works extremely slow. Unfortunately, an update or two ago, it wasn't all that slow, and was acceptable. But I guess D* couldn't allow that to happen, so this last update slowed it back down.

If that was all the problem, I could live with it with an occasional grousing.

But the biggest irritant is the damn remote. Non-responsive and then throws a bunch of codes at the HR pretty much describes it on the good days. On the other days, add in skip-to-end-because-it-wants-to bug/feature.

As to the skill to do an install. I can't speak for any other install, because I wasn't there. But for mine it was stick the dish in a good location, use the meter to line it all up and run 2 cables to the single HR. I'm sorry, but that doesn't take much in the way of skills or intelligence. And this was done by a local dealer who I know and I also know the level of work that he does, which is excellent.

My problems are all inside the box. A box that won't be in my house past the 8th of February unless Direct gets this stuff working by then. I'm not going to horse with it, sit around waiting for a semi-competent 'senior tech' to show up and accomplish nothing again. The only real question in my mind is WHEN I will have this in a box on the way back to D* for its last trip.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

As it states in that article, the company actually paid the employees to go on forums and make the positive posts that is of course fraud.

If the employer puts it in writing and says don't go on satellite forums, and the employee decides to do it covertly at home anyway, that leaves the company legaly free and clear. Also Ken that article states that the FTC is considering updating the laws, as the laws are now there is nothing forcing anybody to declare anything.



Ken S said:


> Actually, they may have a problem...
> 
> http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=109862


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Simply put because I know so many people with HR2X systems, almost all of them installed on my recommendation, and they ALL have the same complaints! Also add to that all the people on CNet and other review sites that say the same exact thing, and it seems pretty clear that something is not right.

With that said I do believe that some people may really not have any problems only because they either only use the HR2X to a fraction of it's "Ability", so maybe they only record one or two shows per week, so the odd's of them getting a bad recording goes down tremendously or the person has so many HR2X's at home that they never really miss a show because of sheer redundancy. BTW couple that with MRV and who cares if one unit missed a recording.

I choose to Join the latter group, with two units my chances of seeing my shows have doubled so my issue's are a lot less, but I still make a note of each time one of the units fails and that happens way more than it should.

And BTW if anybody did think I worked for Dishnetwork  They need only look at my posts, where I state I have had both systems, looked at them side by side and Directv's picture quality is Better, their Satellite fleet and headend system design are far superior and for the most part so are there receivers, except the HR2X which I am seriously on the wall with, it has it's good parts but it fails to do the one thing a DVR should do, which is just make reliable recordings.



paulman182 said:


> So I guess you must work for Dish Network and are coming on here to sabotage the reputation of DirecTV.
> 
> I don't really think that, I'm just sayin...
> 
> We believe you when you say your system has problems, why can't you believe us when we say ours do not?


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Simply put, if an employee comes here undercover and expounds all the positives of the product, they feel that they are helping the company and doing a good deed. That's human nature! Very few employees are going to see it your way that they are "Compromising their integrity", instead they feel that they are Team players.



hasan said:


> Here is what it appears you are "standing by" with your comments:
> 
> Knowingly violating the trust of an employer and the conditions of employment.
> 
> ...


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Simply put, if an employee comes here undercover and expounds all the positives of the product, they feel that they are helping the company and doing a good deed. That's human nature! Very few employees are going to see it your way that they are "Compromising their integrity", instead they feel that they are Team players.


Still seems the exception rather than the rule .. I'd think most employees would honor an instruction to not post when asked, but yeah there will be exceptions. There's no way a few "positive posters" that happen to work for DIRECTV can skew the results here which was your original claim.

I'd also like to point out that there have also been a few "negative posters" that happen to work for DIRECTV as well so it goes both ways.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hasan said:


> I hear a lot of people babble on about free speech. It has nearly no legal standing in the private employment environment. Check the case law, it's very clear. (some states are more intrusive than others with respect to employee rights, but none of them grant employees the rights you mention above.) So, before asserting a right you probably don't have and lose your job, get good legal advice first. Free speech sounds nice, but it's not as free as many seem to think.


Free speech gives you the right to express an opinion. There is a difference between saying "I think you are a complete ________!", and saying "You are a complete _______!"

The first example is an opinion and the second a statement of fact as you see it.

I've seen many instances of people getting fired for the first example and going to binding arbitration and having the arbitrator nullify the termination and give the employee all the back pay for the time he wasn't working. The language used wasn't a consideration because it was "ordinary shop talk".

Free speech does sound nice and it is. Many people died so that we can enjoy this freedom and it should not be denigrated.

When you go to work for a large corporation, you are asked to sign a document stating that you will not release proprietary information to an outside source. That's not an abrogation of your right to free speech, it is a condition of employment. Nobody forces you to sign that agreement, but once you do, you are bound by that agreement. And immediate termination is usually the result if you do break that agreement, because that is part of the agreement.

Here's an example:

The Constitution does protect the freedom of speech of every citizen, and even of non-citizens - but only from restriction by the Congress (and, by virtue of the 14th Amendment, by state legislatures, too). There are plenty of other places where you could speak but where speech can and is suppressed. For example, freedom of speech can be and often is restricted in a work place, for example: employers can restrict your right to speak in the work place about politics, about religion, about legal issues, even about Desperate Housewives. The same restrictions that apply to the government do not apply to private persons, employers, or establishments.

Now suppose you are a manager or supervisor or any other kind of person in charge of a group of people. The above statement would seem to say that you have the right to stop people from talking about politics, religion, etc. That is true, but you can't just walk out and fire somebody unless you have given them a clear understanding of what they are allowed to talk about and have clear documentation of that. Don't believe me? Try it, you'll lose.

You can't even fire somebody for incompetency without a full documentation of that incompetency and without giving them a chance to change their ways. Don't believe me? Try it, you'll lose. And you'll probably be in the middle of a civil suit. After you get banged up by the National Labor Relations Board.

So, unless D* or Dish has agreements in writing that their employees cannot enter into discussions such as are found on this forum, why shouldn't they be allowed to participate?

Rich


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

rich584 said:


> So, unless D* or Dish has agreements in writing that their employees cannot enter into discussions such as are found on this forum, why shouldn't they be allowed to participate?
> 
> Rich


The last several jobs I had all required signing a statement that specified the conditions of employment, and that I would comply with the policies, etc. Any company that doesn't get such a signature from a new employee is opening itself to all kinds of problems.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

carl6 said:


> The last several jobs I had all required signing a statement that specified the conditions of employment, and that I would comply with the policies, etc. Any company that doesn't get such a signature from a new employee is opening itself to all kinds of problems.


We went thru those problems, we learned how to do it correctly. It has become such a hassle to terminate someone's employment that we avoided it as much as possible. No matter how correctly you do it, it's not worth it in most cases. Giving up proprietary info is one thing that makes instant termination possible.

Rich


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

As Trace Atkins says in one of his songs. "The first amendment protects you from the gubment, not from me." I think he's right. 

I imagine the D* employees/contractors have to sign non-disclosure agreements for company info and confidential info. And I doubt one would put their job in jeopardy when jobs are difficult to come by. 

Yes, they could register here with bogus info, yes they could post from Starbucks or another hot spot, but why risk it in case someone could find out who it was that is posting?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> As Trace Atkins says in one of his songs. "The first amendment protects you from the gubment, not from me." I think he's right.


And he was right, a person can say what he wishes to someone. If it's offensive, it becomes a state legal matter, if the offended party pushes it that far.

Your first amendment protection from the government is that they, the government, cannot stop you from expressing an opinion.



> I imagine the D* employees/contractors have to sign non-disclosure agreements for company info and confidential info.


A lot of places make you sign those documents when you hit a certain level of job rank. When I got promoted to supervisor, that's when I got the non-disclosure documents to sign. And the one that I really liked, the "we now own all rights to any material produced", document.



> And I doubt one would put their job in jeopardy when jobs are difficult to come by.


I just deleted my answer to this statement.



> Yes, they could register here with bogus info, yes they could post from Starbucks or another hot spot, but why risk it in case someone could find out who it was that is posting?


And "they" would find out, how? Very few people on the forum use their full name as their user name. Very few people have email addresses available. I have seen a couple people use their email address as the user name. Bad idea. Would someone who has been expressly forbidden to be a participating member of the forum use any of the methods of identifying themselves that I listed?

Why would someone in that position use the forum? Who they gonna call for help if their HR starts acting wacky or they want actual information about eSATAs or models or just guidance on how to operate the HRs? D*? If you were one CSRs that answers the phone when you make your calls and reads off a script, where would you look for help? Here, where else?

Rich


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> When I got promoted to supervisor, that's when I got the non-disclosure documents to sign. And the one that I really liked, the "we now own all rights to any material produced", document.
> 
> And "they" would find out, how? Very few people on the forum use their full name as their user name. Very few people have email addresses available. I have seen a couple people use their email address as the user name.


I had to sign one of those for a job I will be starting soon. The company owns everything and I cannot disclose anything that may damage the company. I typically like to keep copies of my work if I write something.

While they might not use easily identifiable information to post, they may use a company laptop that has tracking. People are dumb that way.

I wish we would get more info from D* employees. There are some questions that would be nice to have answered by a legit source. Stuart and Doug for example, do a great job relaying info, though sometimes specifics would be cool to know. I know they can't do that though. Would be nice if they could.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> I had to sign one of those for a job I will be starting soon. The company owns everything and I cannot disclose anything that may damage the company. I typically like to keep copies of my work if I write something.


I think what they are talking about is "work product". You'd have to do something with the copies of work related material.



> While they might not use easily identifiable information to post, they may use a company laptop that has tracking. People are dumb that way.


I keep forgetting that. You're right. That would happen.



> I wish we would get more info from D* employees. There are some questions that would be nice to have answered by a legit source. Stuart and Doug for example, do a great job relaying info, though sometimes specifics would be cool to know. I know they can't do that though. Would be nice if they could.


Lots of things would be nice. Good luck with your new job. 

Rich


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Tallgntlmn said:


> I wish we would get more info from D* employees. There are some questions that would be nice to have answered by a legit source. Stuart and Doug for example, do a great job relaying info, though sometimes specifics would be cool to know. I know they can't do that though. Would be nice if they could.


Satellite Racer has done a good job passing along programming info in the past -- but the way in which a minority of posters responded to him in some threads makes me understand why we don't see it more. It takes a savvy individual with a very thick skin ... and (for good or ill) the DirecTV corporate culture is to play things close to the vest.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

:listenup::icon_stup:hair:
The last two pages of this thread have become absolutely ridiculous

You have a few guys like Rich and me talking about one thing and other people coming in and trying to SPIN the whole bloody thing into something else.

COMMON SENSE PEOPLE, PLEASE!

Yes we all understand that if you work for Directv and sign up to the forum and then start posting things like the Access Card uses XY and Z for encryption and the company is having problems with Briiippp sounds because of Defective equipment at our main center. YES you will be fired, you have breached most elements of any Basic Contract.

On the other hand if you come to the Forum on your OWN and say that DirecTV service is great, I don't have any problems and Sunshine exudes from my bosses Arse, you will not be fired! Look that’s common sense! God's imagine being the Lawyer for Directv fighting an employee who was fired for saying good things about the company and the things he says are totally subjective like “Mine works great”. Geez a Lawyer would tell you to settle before the press gets wind of it! What we are talking about is just plain old common sense and all the other examples given in the last 2 pages are just a niggling diversion from the real facts.

Secondly you don’t need a Internet Café etc. to do it. You can sign up to a hotmail or GMail account and then sign up to the Forum using the name Daffy Duck if you like. 

Do you Nay Sayers have any idea how difficult it would be for Directv to sequester the records on a Gmail account! :lol: Next to impossible, unless they had some sort of corporate sabotage case.

So Lets get back to the real planet and stop all this non sense talk that is suppose to make the rest of us believe that there are no Directv employees posting on this forum. There is most likely a whole bunch of them here! 

If I worked for Directv I sure as hell would join this forum. This is the best place to find out the pulse of my customers and find out what they think of my product and the competitions. I would also take offense to anybody who said negative things about our products and I would probably post back giving my opinion. 

Do I really care? NO! But let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that all these polls etc. and these perfect world systems are really giving us a totaly accurate reflection of the truth, especially when we have two major players on the playground with thousands of potential employee’s trying to influence events. Do what I do, just use your own experience and the plethora of unbiased reviews on the net and you can pretty much know what is what.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I think what they are talking about is "work product". You'd have to do something with the copies of work related material.
> 
> Good luck with your new job.


Thanks man, I hope this one will be a good one and a longer term job with the way things are today. I feel fortunate to finally find one. It may not be perfect, but it's a helluva lot better than unemployment insurance.

I usually keep a copy of every document I write just to prove technical writing. I can black out and protect it if needed.

Now if I were going to work for DirecTV, I would still come here and post. I would still participate in programs that cut with a sharp edge. I think I'd have to bite my tongue on some things though if I were privy to that info.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Problem is nobody will ever know how many a "few" is. And secondly even just one person telling everyone that "I never had a missed or had s messed up recording in 2 years" is very very irritating, especially when most people cannot go for more than 2 weeks without a messup. It's also very unproductive because people keep calling Directv and replacing DVR's hoping to get one of the Magic DVR's  like MR. X has.
Just to be clear, as I said before, I do believe some people have never had a messed up recording, thats because they record less in 2 years than most of us do in 2 weeks. Simply put they should add a disclaimer and say "Well I really don't use it much to record".

-----

Negative Posters who work for Directv????????



Doug Brott said:


> -
> Snip
> -
> 
> ...


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## Juppers (Oct 26, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Problem is nobody will ever know how many a "few" is. And secondly even just one person telling everyone that "I never had a missed or had s messed up recording in 2 years" is very very irritating, especially when most people cannot go for more than 2 weeks without a messup. It's also very unproductive because people keep calling Directv and replacing DVR's hoping to get one of the Magic DVR's  like MR. X has.
> Just to be clear, as I said before, I do believe some people have never had a messed up recording, thats because they record less in 2 years than most of us do in 2 weeks. Simply put they should add a disclaimer and say "Well I really don't use it much to record".
> 
> -----
> ...


I can't remember the last time I had a missed recording. Bad recordings that wouldn't playback at all I've had. Single recordings that have been randomly broken up into multiple parts without the unit rebooting I've had. Can't recall any recent straight up missed recordings.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the OP. The HR2x units are horrible and way below the bar that other providers have set. Their biggest weaknesses are their lack of responsiveness, their poor remote performance, and their horrible GUI graphics. I have been hoping they would make strides on these issues over nearly the last 2 years. Fact is they haven't. Actually it has gotten worse. They seem to find the time to add in DTV Apps, Score Guide, Media Share, and other fluff, but can't fix the core functionality to make the box pleasant to use. They have until October to make some progress or they will lose me as a customer.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Juppers said:


> The HR2x units are horrible and way below the bar that other providers have set. Their biggest weaknesses are their lack of responsiveness, their poor remote performance, and their horrible GUI graphics.


Wow! I must really be stupid, I'm actually happy with my HRs. They are not slow or unresponsive (except for the 23 in RF mode, which is now in IR mode and working flawlessly) and I was shocked when I read Stuart's post in which he said the GUI was in SD.

Just one more time: Look to the feeds coming from the dish to the HRs. I don't think every HR works correctly, but you gotta give them a good tight "system" to work with. A good functional HR will work on a good "system".

I see people comparing receivers to DVRs. What do you expect? Do you truly expect to see a DVR that is as fast as a receiver?

I just called up Dish and asked them what it would cost to duplicate my setup. Up front fee: $2748. $211 per month after that. The setup I have now cost me about a thousand bucks and the last bill I saw was $165. I do have some credits that come off the bill every month.

Dish has on it's website an offer of a "free" HD DVR that has a capacity of 500 hours. Says not one word about SD or HD content used to figure out that 500 hours. Asked the guy I talked to what size internal drive that was and he blathered about and I finally said, "It must be a 500G drive, no?". He agreed and I asked him how the "2 room" DVR worked. Gives you an HD feed on one line and an SD feed on the other. Told him I only watch HD as a rule. Told me no one has a dual feed multiple room DVR. Asked him a few more questions and he asked me how I know so much about all this stuff.

On the plus side, they are going to carry BBCA in HD on the 20th and, while they are pushing the Seagate Showcase as an eSATA, they did say you can put any eSATA on the DVR.

Still no Yes Network, but they are negotiating with them. And no offer of money to offset the disconnect fees of D*. Cablevision will put out $200 toward the disconnect fee.

I think I'll stick with D*.

Rich


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## Juppers (Oct 26, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Wow! I must really be stupid, I'm actually happy with my HRs. They are not slow or unresponsive (except for the 23 in RF mode, which is now in IR mode and working flawlessly) and I was shocked when I read Stuart's post in which he said the GUI was in SD.


If 30 seconds to bring up the guide, more than 5 seconds to change the channel is acceptable to you, then you have the right receiver. I find it not acceptable and frustratingly slow.



> Just one more time: Look to the feeds coming from the dish to the HRs. I don't think every HR works correctly, but you gotta give them a good tight "system" to work with. A good functional HR will work on a good "system".


My feeds are fine, as are the feeds for every other HR2x I have ever seen. All have the same poor performance.



> I see people comparing receivers to DVRs. What do you expect? Do you truly expect to see a DVR that is as fast as a receiver?


Yes!!!! I do expect the top of the line receiver to perform as good as if not better than the lower end models. If it takes more processing power to accomplish this, then they should have put in the extra processing power. Personally, I have seem glimpses of these units running as I would expect them to run, so I don't believe it is a hardware bottleneck. I believe it is a software problem.



> I just called up Dish and asked them what it would cost to duplicate my setup. Up front fee: $2748. $211 per month after that. The setup I have now cost me about a thousand bucks and the last bill I saw was $165. I do have some credits that come off the bill every month.
> 
> Dish has on it's website an offer of a "free" HD DVR that has a capacity of 500 hours. Says not one word about SD or HD content used to figure out that 500 hours. Asked the guy I talked to what size internal drive that was and he blathered about and I finally said, "It must be a 500G drive, no?". He agreed and I asked him how the "2 room" DVR worked. Gives you an HD feed on one line and an SD feed on the other. Told him I only watch HD as a rule. Told me no one has a dual feed multiple room DVR. Asked him a few more questions and he asked me how I know so much about all this stuff.
> 
> ...


That is your choice as to the provider you choose to stick with. Personally, I will be seriously considering switching providers when my contract is out in October. The lure of a responsive DVR, more HD movie channels, and locals in HD will be the driving force. I'm not a big sports fan, and that appears to be the big difference between the 2 sat providers. On the flip side, Dish has a reputation of getting into spats with programming providers and having channels go dark occasionally. Hopefully DirecTV will correct the speed issues by October, then this will be a non-issue for me.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Juppers said:


> If 30 seconds to bring up the guide, more than 5 seconds to change the channel is acceptable to you, then you have the right receiver. I find it not acceptable and frustratingly slow.


30 seconds for the guide? Wow...there is definitely something wrong. I've never seen it take more than like 2 seconds at the most.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> 30 seconds for the guide? Wow...there is definitely something wrong. I've never seen it take more than like 2 seconds at the most.


 +1
I have 3 (2 hr20s and a hr21)
Guide comes up in less than a second


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

dreadlk said:


> :listenup::icon_stup:hair:
> The last two pages of this thread have become absolutely ridiculous...


The last 2 pages? The whole frickin thing has been the most mindless thread I've seen on a forum since early TivoCommunity circa 2000. Easily, the worst thread in the history of this particular forum.



rich584 said:


> ...Your first amendment protection from the government is that they, the government, cannot stop you from expressing an opinion...


And thank you for saying that. It boggles the mind how many people don't understand something as simple as "free speech", which is _only _free in that "congress shall make no law...", meaning you won't go to jail no matter how stupid what you say might be. Almost everyone seems to think there are some magical protections regarding "free speech" that will protect them from repercussions. 'Nuh-uh. Only here, where you can hide behind your keyboard anonymously, and that's only because we can't find you to exact those repercussions.

Stand next to a biker and tell him how ugly his girlfriend is, even if true, and see how much your free speech protects you.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I see people comparing receivers to DVRs. What do you expect? Do you truly expect to see a DVR that is as fast as a receiver?


I call this "the Wal-Mart™ mentality". It's the whole notion that we shouldn't be expecting better because we get a bargain, convenience or a vast selection. We as a nation are slowly becoming used to things not working as they should, or being buggy, or unreliable simply because we perceive it to be "good enough". (Since we're talking about electronic devices, perhaps I should call it "the Microsoft™ mentality" instead.)

To answer the question: YES we should expect a DVR to be as fast as an HD receiver, or an HD receiver to be as fast as a SD receiver. We SHOULD expect the 'features' to work and not cause frustration when they're implemented.

I'm willing to accept bugs as a part of beta testing new software or features, but they shouldn't be rolling these out to an unsuspecting general public before getting the cobwebs out of the corners.

Is that really too much to ask? Did Apple roll out the new iPhone with the same processor as the old one, but ask it do all kinds of new tricks? No. Does Ford put the same motor from a Ranger into an F-250? No. Would you expect a 10 year old computer to easily run Windows Vista? No. So why then would you be perfectly OK with the high-end receiver being so buggy and slow?

Personally, I don't think it's the fault of the engineers. Engineers, if they know what they're doing, would the ones saying, "this isn't ready for prime time yet" or "the current hardware is not up to snuff to do what you're asking." This sounds like some suits overeager to add features and forging ahead over the objections of the ones who know what they're doing.

The end result is any of us who dare to explore these new features get crashes, glacial response times and lockups.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Using the current SAT technology, a DVR will never be as fast at channel changes as a non-DVR, HD will never be as fast as SD, and channel surfing will never match the speed of what we used to see with analog cable. If you think otherwise thats your business, but you will always be disappointed because those facts will not change.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

My 722 changes channels and reacts to remote inputs with virtually no lag. Its just as fast as my non-dvr 411.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

peano said:


> My 722 changes channels and reacts to remote inputs with virtually no lag. Its just as fast as my non-dvr 411.


Interesting.....you have a model 722 DirecTV receiver or DVR?


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## cohbraz (Nov 19, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> Using the current SAT technology, a DVR will never be as fast at channel changes as a non-DVR, HD will never be as fast as SD, and channel surfing will never match the speed of what we used to see with analog cable. If you think otherwise thats your business, but you will always be disappointed because those facts will not change.


Bingo! The way a straight receiver operates and the way a DVR operates are completely different. One day, DVRs will be just as quick, but that is a few years away. It will happen when DVRs start using flash memory drives, instead of traditional hard drives.

Until then, DVRs simply can not be just as fast.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

cohbraz said:


> Until then, DVRs simply can not be just as fast.


Given the amount of specialized hardware involved, this wimpy PC argument doesn't apply nearly as well as you might think. Your argument also assumes that the hardware is deficient but as several have pointed out, other provider's DVRs running essentially the same hardware don't exhibit the same lethargy.

If the hardware were really the problem, wouldn't you have thought that DIRECTV would have upped the specification of the newer DVRs? More powerful hardware exists in other realms.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Interesting.....you have a model 722 DirecTV receiver or DVR?


Perspective can be a good thing when trying to properly assign blame.

I notice that you didn't beat up the HR20 user for chiming in when it is clearly a wolf in sheep's clothing.


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## cohbraz (Nov 19, 2006)

harsh said:


> Given the amount of specialized hardware involved, this wimpy PC argument doesn't apply nearly as well as you might think. Your argument also assumes that the hardware is deficient but as several have pointed out, other provider's DVRs running essentially the same hardware don't exhibit the same lethargy.
> 
> If the hardware were really the problem, wouldn't you have thought that DIRECTV would have upped the specification of the newer DVRs? More powerful hardware exists in other realms.


I never said DVRs are deficient. They are not. They do exactly what they are supposed to do. I have seen many DVRs from many different systems. I have never seen a DVR that was as fast as it's non-DVR counterpart.

And no, I do not think that Directv would have upped the specification. They are still using HDD for the DVRs. As I said, the speeds will not be similar until flash memory drives are used.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Juppers said:


> If 30 seconds to bring up the guide, more than 5 seconds to change the channel is acceptable to you, then you have the right receiver. I find it not acceptable and frustratingly slow.


I just timed the time it takes to bring up my guide on my 23 from the room downstairs from the 23's location. Goes over an IR extender. 2 seconds.
Timed the guide on the 21-700 in the room I'm in now. 1 second.

From the guide to the Playlist 2 seconds. Back to the guide, 1 second. How fast do you think they should be?



> My feeds are fine, as are the feeds for every other HR2x I have ever seen. All have the same poor performance.


So, I must have the fastest HRs in the world? C'mon. You've got something wrong with your system, not the HRs.



> Yes!!!! I do expect the top of the line receiver to perform as good as if not better than the lower end models. If it takes more processing power to accomplish this, then they should have put in the extra processing power. Personally, I have seem glimpses of these units running as I would expect them to run, so I don't believe it is a hardware bottleneck. I believe it is a software problem.


I have the same software you do and I don't have any slowness of any kind.



> That is your choice as to the provider you choose to stick with. Personally, I will be seriously considering switching providers when my contract is out in October. The lure of a responsive DVR, more HD movie channels, and locals in HD will be the driving force. I'm not a big sports fan, and that appears to be the big difference between the 2 sat providers. On the flip side, Dish has a reputation of getting into spats with programming providers and having channels go dark occasionally. Hopefully DirecTV will correct the speed issues by October, then this will be a non-issue for me.


Look, you've got something wrong with your system. You can deny it, but if you're truly seeing a 30 second gap between the time you press the guide button and it pops up, something is wrong and I really doubt it is the HR.

Rich


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I see people comparing receivers to DVRs. What do you expect? Do you truly expect to see a DVR that is as fast as a receiver?


Yes, I do. I expect my HR22 to be as fast as my friend's H23 in scrolling the guide and remote response. The fact that it is a DVR should not have any bearing on how fast the receiver processes remote commands. IMHO of course. Now do I expect to be as fast when switching channels? Not necessarily because I know there is more going on with a DVR vs a standard receiver.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> I call this "the Wal-Mart™ mentality". It's the whole notion that we shouldn't be expecting better because we get a bargain, convenience or a vast selection. We as a nation are slowly becoming used to things not working as they should, or being buggy, or unreliable simply because we perceive it to be "good enough". (Since we're talking about electronic devices, perhaps I should call it "the Microsoft™ mentality" instead.)


The HRs are better than they were when they were introduced. Faster, more reliable. None of us were happy with the first ones introduced (generality), but we hung in and they have gotten better.



> To answer the question: YES we should expect a DVR to be as fast as an HD receiver, or an HD receiver to be as fast as a SD receiver. We SHOULD expect the 'features' to work and not cause frustration when they're implemented.


You can expect it all you want, I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon. D* has used the general public as guinea pigs and I don't agree with that, but we've all been testing many things for years without being aware of it.



> I'm willing to accept bugs as a part of beta testing new software or features, but they shouldn't be rolling these out to an unsuspecting general public before getting the cobwebs out of the corners.


Can't disagree with that.



> Is that really too much to ask? Did Apple roll out the new iPhone with the same processor as the old one, but ask it do all kinds of new tricks?


You're really not gonna attempt to compare Apple with D* are you? That's bordering on ridiculous. Apple clearly knows how to run a business. That's an unfair comparison.



> Does Ford put the same motor from a Ranger into an F-250?


What does that have to do with an HR?



> Would you expect a 10 year old computer to easily run Windows Vista? No. So why then would you be perfectly OK with the high-end receiver being so buggy and slow?


If my nine HRs were buggy and slow I wouldn't be happy, but they just aren't.



> Personally, I don't think it's the fault of the engineers. Engineers, if they know what they're doing, would the ones saying, "this isn't ready for prime time yet" or "the current hardware is not up to snuff to do what you're asking." This sounds like some suits overeager to add features and forging ahead over the objections of the ones who know what they're doing.


Do you know any engineers?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:



> Yes, I do. I expect my HR22 to be as fast as my friend's H23 in scrolling the guide and remote response. The fact that it is a DVR should not have any bearing on how fast the receiver processes remote commands. IMHO of course. Now do I expect to be as fast when switching channels? Not necessarily because I know there is more going on with a DVR vs a standard receiver.


And yet *CCarncross* thinks that it is not technologically possible for a plain receiver and a DVR to have the same speed. And he's usually right (well, nobody's right all the time :lol and in this instance I agree with him.

Rich.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I just timed the time it takes to bring up my guide on my 23 from the room downstairs from the 23's location. Goes over an IR extender. 2 seconds.
> Timed the guide on the 21-700 in the room I'm in now. 1 second.
> 
> From the guide to the Playlist 2 seconds. Back to the guide, 1 second. How fast do you think they should be?


Just out of curiosity, is your DVR networked? If so, do you use VOD, or MediaShare or TV Apps?

I've been thinking for a while it's all the add ons that have slowed these things down. Or maybe using RF instead of IR.

My times for what you did are similar. But try scrolling through the guide. Page at a time or one channel at a time, and count any missed keypresses. I can get anywhere from two to twenty missed keypresses as the guide "hangs" while scrolling. Same in the playlist.

Go to ESPN and after it comes up, go to another channel. How many keypresses and missed changes do you go through before it works? Because for me it's an exercise in futility sometimes. Sometimes it's fast, sometimes it ain't.

Now play some recorded content. Hit the 30 second skip button three or four times in a row. Keep doing that until you get to the end of the program. If it's like my DVR, it'll jump to the very end unless you s-l-o-w-l-y repeat that skip.

I can handle the slow channel load time; I am not a flipper. But another family member is, and she usually gets frustrated and just turns off the TV when the receiver starts acting a fool. Or she *****es to me about spending a hundred bucks a month and she can't watch TV. 

If you do happen to use advanced features, go try to fire up TV Apps on an channel with interactive content. Then go fix yourself a drink, maybe fry up some bacon to enjoy while it gets completely hung like mine did the other day. 7 minutes later, all the "Exit" keypresses finally registered and I got a chorus of *bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump* from the receiver. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TomCat said:


> The last 2 pages? The whole frickin thing has been the most mindless thread I've seen on a forum since early TivoCommunity circa 2000. Easily, the worst thread in the history of this particular forum.


And that's an example of how boring the forum has been for a while. There really isn't anything major to complain about, so we get into these useless arguments just to argue. It's pointless, but...



> And thank you for saying that. It boggles the mind how many people don't understand something as simple as "free speech", which is _only _free in that "congress shall make no law...", meaning you won't go to jail no matter how stupid what you say might be. Almost everyone seems to think there are some magical protections regarding "free speech" that will protect them from repercussions. 'Nuh-uh. Only here, where you can hide behind your keyboard anonymously, and that's only because we can't find you to exact those repercussions.


Once upon a time, I took an oath about the Constitution and when I got discharged from the Navy, that oath was not nullified. That remark about people "babbling" about the right of free speech was troubling. But the lack of understanding of the Constitution is equally troubling.



> Stand next to a biker and tell him how ugly his girlfriend is, even if true, and see how much your free speech protects you.


:lol:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> Just out of curiosity, is your DVR networked? If so, do you use VOD, or MediaShare or TV Apps?


I do have the HRs I was talking about on Ethernet cables and do download programs frequently. No MediaShare, but I do have the Apps on some of my HRs. Don't use them, but they are there.



> I've been thinking for a while it's all the add ons that have slowed these things down. Or maybe using RF instead of IR.


The 23 is on IR and the 21-700 is on RF. Same response time. Didn't use my stopwatch, just counted "one thousand one" and so on.



> My times for what you did are similar. But try scrolling through the guide. Page at a time or one channel at a time, and count any missed keypresses. I can get anywhere from two to twenty missed keypresses as the guide "hangs" while scrolling. Same in the playlist.


Just did the guide and the playlist with the 21-700. Both the guide and the playlist changed each time I pressed the down key. Did it fifty times on the guide and went to the bottom of the play list and back to the top. Did the page at a time twenty times on the guide and went to the bottom of the playlist and back to the top. Never missed one time.



> Go to ESPN and after it comes up, go to another channel. How many keypresses and missed changes do you go through before it works? Because for me it's an exercise in futility sometimes. Sometimes it's fast, sometimes it ain't.


You weren't clear enough on how to change the channels. I'll try a couple ways. I'm on ESPN now, women's soccer, and I'm going to go to channel 244...OK, went right to the Syfy channel playing the Crow...now to channel 13, PBS in NY...went right there and Julia and Jack are cooking. Now I'll try it with the guide...Julia and Jacques is highlighted...punch in 244 and...back to the Crow. Punch in 206 and...women's soccer. Is that what you meant? I never have any problem changing channels. I usually use the Guide to do it.



> Now play some recorded content. Hit the 30 second skip button three or four times in a row. Keep doing that until you get to the end of the program. If it's like my DVR, it'll jump to the very end unless you s-l-o-w-l-y repeat that skip.


When D* first implemented that feature, people were having problems with it and I posted that they were holding the slip/skip button down too long. Nobody was doing that, of course. I stopped suggesting that, but didn't change my mind. But some HRs are more sensitive that issue than others. I've learned how to use the slip button and if it does happen, it's usually my fault. I've also found that if you are in FF and hit the slip button the thing goes to the end of the recording. I found that out by being clumsy. It would be nice if those two buttons were a bit farther apart. Do you have 22s? The one I had would go to the end of the recording whenever it felt like it. Once it went to the end when I pressed Play.



> If you do happen to use advanced features, go try to fire up TV Apps on an channel with interactive content. Then go fix yourself a drink, maybe fry up some bacon to enjoy while it gets completely hung like mine did the other day. 7 minutes later, all the "Exit" keypresses finally registered and I got a chorus of *bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump*bump* from the receiver. :lol:


I usually scoff at new bells and whistles and end up using them. I thought QuickTune was useless, since I rarely watch live TV, but I use it all the time. But the Apps? I've got computers in every room that I have a TV in and I use the computers for stuff like that. But I'll keep an open mind and keep loading them, one's bound to catch me.

How many HRs do you have and do you have the same problems on each one?

Rich


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

rich584 said:


> How many HRs do you have and do you have the same problems on each one?
> 
> Rich


I only have one HR22-100. The others are just HD/SD only boxes.

With the slip/skip button it may be a case of two keypresses registering as one long press. That would certainly explain the skip to end frustrations.

I have to admit, I am puzzled at why mine would be so slow sometimes and yours seems to be pretty snappy, since we seem to have similar setups. Unless it's a hardware difference between the HR22's and 23/21's.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Interesting.....you have a model 722 DirecTV receiver or DVR?


Huh??? You guys need to take off your rose colored glasses in regards to the HR DVRs. They are woefully poor.

I have a 722 and an HR-22. There is simply no comparison in regards to speed and ease of use.

I agree with the OP. The DirecTV engineers in charge of the HR design and software sould be fired.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Those that have a speed issue with your HR2xs should perform a Reset Everything in Reset in System Information(hold down Info button for 5 seconds).You will lose your recordings,favorites lists,parental settings afterwards if your HR2x does not speed up contact DirecTV for a replacement.Good Luck!.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

peano said:


> Huh??? You guys need to take off your rose colored glasses in regards to the HR DVRs. They are woefully poor.
> 
> I have a 722 and an HR-22. There is simply no comparison in regards to speed and ease of use.
> 
> I agree with the OP. The DirecTV engineers in charge of the HR design and software sould be fired.


Did you send Tivo a thank you note because how well the 722 works?.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

peano said:


> Huh??? You guys need to take off your rose colored glasses in regards to the HR DVRs. They are woefully poor.
> 
> I have a 722 and an HR-22. There is simply no comparison in regards to speed and ease of use.
> 
> I agree with the OP. The DirecTV engineers in charge of the HR design and software sould be fired.


Um, I think they are very easy to use, and very intuitive.. Your just used to yours. Thats like so many people who think tivos are great.. I think they suck.. ReplayTV had by far the best GUI ever.. and still does.. Sad that a GUI built more than 5 years ago is still the best pout there...

Thats not to say there aren't lots of things they can improve.... and are....

However, speed is one of the big ones, and it is going to get better...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

cohbraz said:


> As I said, the speeds will not be similar until flash memory drives are used.


Given that others are using Winchester mechanisms to record up to four programs at once while doing other DVR stuff, I don't think the storage device technology plays much into the speed differential.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

peano said:


> Huh??? You guys need to take off your rose colored glasses in regards to the HR DVRs. They are woefully poor.
> 
> I have a 722 and an HR-22.


No rose colored glasses here....just thousands of hours of satisfied use of HD DVRs, including the HR21-200, HR20-700, and others.

As a very recent entry into the fold, the HR22 seems to have some issues that near-term firmware should correct...comparing that to a Dish 722 is simply not representative of the mainstream DirecTV HD DVR user base.

Woefully poor...not at all here my friend....come on over....I'll show you just how wrong you are.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No rose colored glasses here....just thousands of hours of satisfied use of HD DVRs, including the HR21-200, HR20-700, and others.


The nice thing about not "stepping out" is that you have little to no perspective on what you're missing. It is kind of like those who insist that they'll never see any benefit to HD over SD.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

harsh said:


> The nice thing about not "stepping out" is that you have little to no perspective on what you're missing. It is kind of like those who insist that they'll never see any benefit to HD over SD.


I've seen dozens of playback hours on the 722. No doubt it is a nice unit.

That said, it is no where near better than a number of others from other providers. I also did not care for some aspects of the Dish GUI, but that's what you get.

Going back to the OP....the HR22 still has some issues that require firmware improvements...no doubt. Many of the other DirecTV HD DVRs in the stable perform quite well, and are very dependable for years here, thank you.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Seems this thread has strayed a bit .. If you want to compare/contrast DISH & DIRECTV receivers, let's move on to another thread please .. As for here ..

Please :backtotop ..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> I only have one HR22-100. The others are just HD/SD only boxes.
> 
> With the slip/skip button it may be a case of two keypresses registering as one long press. That would certainly explain the skip to end frustrations.
> 
> I have to admit, I am puzzled at why mine would be so slow sometimes and yours seems to be pretty snappy, since we seem to have similar setups. Unless it's a hardware difference between the HR22's and 23/21's.


Switch to a 23 and you'll see the problem disappear. I did. Don't buy into the idea that all HRs are equal to each other, that's just not true. I expected you to post that you owned a 22. The one I had would do the slip to the end thing whenever it felt like it. Surprisingly, it did everything else very well. Fast as you could hope for, recorded everything, never missed a recording. Shocked me, then it started slipping to the end.

I checked my four 20-700s last night for a while and they are faster than the 21-700. Couldn't even get "one thousand out" and the guide was up. No problems with scrolling, no problems at all. Then my wife caught me and I had to stop.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Jhon69 said:


> Those that have a speed issue with your HR2xs should perform a Reset Everything in Reset in System Information(hold down Info button for 5 seconds).You will lose your recordings,favorites lists,parental settings afterwards if your HR2x does not speed up contact DirecTV for a replacement.Good Luck!.


That reset does absolutely nothing but wipe out your recordings. The CSRs are just cruel when they tell an unsuspecting person to do that.

Rich


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Inconsistency is the trademark of poor design.

Not only are there differences in the hardware design between the different models, but many DVRs appear to have production issues as well.

And the "it must be your setup" argument is just as bad. Nothing should require everything to be absolutely perfect. And even if it does, the design should aggressively eliminate all the unreliable aspects to the extent possible.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bobcamp1 said:


> Inconsistency is the trademark of poor design.
> 
> Not only are there differences in the hardware design between the different models, but many DVRs appear to have production issues as well.
> 
> And the "it must be your setup" argument is just as bad. Nothing should require everything to be absolutely perfect. And even if it does, the design should aggressively eliminate all the unreliable aspects to the extent possible.


Design has little to do with it.

Actually...several of your premises are incorrect.

Setup and environment (cable lengths, dish placement, dish alignment, power sources, connector ends, multiplexers used, and splitters used, to just name a few) can, in fact, impact performance.

In the case of hardware - the different extentions, i.e. HR21-*700*, HR21-*200*, HR21-*100* represent different manufacturers, not necessarily different "designs".

In fact, those of us who are intimately familiar with a number of these HD DVRs units (having done extensive testing just prior to their public release) know that their "insides" are extremely similar.

Yes, a hard drive might be located on the front, or right, or left...and a port might be next to another input on the back, but these nominal physical variances have no impact of consequence to performance. They are virtually the same units, regardless of manufacturer.

It's almost all about the firmware. In that arena, there are some variances, although even those are not major ones. But they can be enough to result in speed or other performance differences when using them.

Those variances are being mitigated through the CE testing program.

When the original HR20-700's came out (and I have 2), they were slow as molasses, and now are among the faster HD DVRs. This all changes over time, and as improvements are made. As new technologies are released (such as SWM), these require some design changes, leaving natural variances between "generations" of models.

What has to be taken into account is that in addition to the launch of new IRDs, new features and functions are being introduced over time as well. This often means one model might be ahead of another in terms of adapting to the new capabilities.

This stuff is evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Those of us who have witnessed the changes firsthand for the past 3-4 years alone recognize the tremendous progress that has been made in the HD DVR experience, not to mention all the new features introduced.

There is still work to be done, new technologies to leverage, and new capabilities to be delivered. I expect even greater things in HD DVR viewing for the rest of 2009 and into 2010.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Those of us who have witnessed the changes firsthand for the past 3-4 years alone recognize the tremendous progress that has been made in the HD DVR experience, not to mention all the new features introduced.


Just in my own experience as one who has been around since the HR20 was released, I'd agree that great progress has been made. My HR20-700's work faster, more reliably, and with more features than upon release.

However, I can also state that my HR21-100 has been a dog since I received it, and it's performance had degraded to the point that, like an old sick dog, I'm about to take it out back and shoot it. I'm going back to an HD receiver rather than a DVR for the bedroom TV.

If my experience with the HR2x series was based solely on the HR20-700, I'd be perfectly happy. If it were solely based upon our HR21-100 (or the HR-22's I've dealt with at the in-laws' place), I would be among those severely chastising DirecTV.

Could be model/manufacturer differences, could be the particular units I've dealt with. Regardless, there's significant variability out there in DirecTV DVR Land, and I can understand the frustration and angst expressed by those who got the short straw with their leased units.


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## mopzo (Jun 15, 2007)

I expect items to fail. But what I disagree with is the recording policies. My -100 Caller ID has not worked for weeks. DVR says no dial tone. Verified dial tone with a test phone, it's the DVR. Normally not a big deal, except when a person in my house is hard of hearing. (She uses headphones from the AV receiver to watch TV) What do i do? The DVR is half full of recordings. I replace the receiver, the recordings are lost. Can't transfer recordings from old to new. I have to live with this problem? I guess so.


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## mjbvideo (Jan 15, 2006)

"Similar" hardware doesn't mean anything to me. If you are talking about different manufacturers along with similar hardware then you need to consider components being on the edge of their tolerances. These tolerances could potentially stack up, putting the unit out of spec which can cause wild inconsistancies in the way all of our DVR's work. With all of those old and new DVR's models they need to make darn sure that whatever they change in their firmware is 100% backwards compatable with all of the older DVR's. If some of the older DVR's are proven POS (HR21-100) then maybe Directv should recall them. I work in the aerospace industry and I can tell you that we would never attempt to make one firmware work with "similar" avionic instruments. If we did that then you'd see a heck of a lot more planes falling into the ocean. I don't expect Directv to adopt the strict aviation regulations - it's just TV for crying out loud, but it's just the dang principle of the thing. I'm getting sick and tired of people saying 'it'll get better' - especially since it has gotten worse the last few firmware updates.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> If my experience with the HR2x series was based solely on the HR20-700, I'd be perfectly happy. If it were solely based upon our HR21-100 (or the HR-22's I've dealt with at the in-laws' place), I would be among those severely chastising DirecTV.
> 
> Could be model/manufacturer differences, could be the particular units I've dealt with. Regardless, there's significant variability out there in DirecTV DVR Land, and I can understand the frustration and angst expressed by those who got the short straw with their leased units.


Naw, it's the 100s that are not as good as the 700s and suffer horribly in comparison. Now we'll hear from several people who have never had a problem with a 100. Well, some of them have to work to some degree, I guess.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mopzo said:


> I expect items to fail. But what I disagree with is the recording policies. My -100 Caller ID has not worked for weeks. DVR says no dial tone. Verified dial tone with a test phone, it's the DVR. Normally not a big deal, except when a person in my house is hard of hearing. (She uses headphones from the AV receiver to watch TV) What do i do? The DVR is half full of recordings. I replace the receiver, the recordings are lost. Can't transfer recordings from old to new. I have to live with this problem? I guess so.


If you get a replacement, you'll probably get another 100 of some sort. You can buy 20-700s, which are very reliable on eBay. The recordings? I dunno. Not much you can do about that if you replace the faulty 100.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mjbvideo said:


> "Similar" hardware doesn't mean anything to me. If you are talking about different manufacturers along with similar hardware then you need to consider components being on the edge of their tolerances. These tolerances could potentially stack up, putting the unit out of spec which can cause wild inconsistancies in the way all of our DVR's work. With all of those old and new DVR's models they need to make darn sure that whatever they change in their firmware is 100% backwards compatable with all of the older DVR's. If some of the older DVR's are proven POS (HR21-100) then maybe Directv should recall them. I work in the aerospace industry and I can tell you that we would never attempt to make one firmware work with "similar" avionic instruments. If we did that then you'd see a heck of a lot more planes falling into the ocean. I don't expect Directv to adopt the strict aviation regulations - it's just TV for crying out loud, but it's just the dang principle of the thing. I'm getting sick and tired of people saying 'it'll get better' - especially since it has gotten worse the last few firmware updates.


Welcome to our world.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mjbvideo said:


> "Similar" hardware doesn't mean anything to me. If you are talking about different manufacturers along with similar hardware then you need to consider components being on the edge of their tolerances. These tolerances could potentially stack up, putting the unit out of spec which can cause wild inconsistancies in the way all of our DVR's work.


Your points are well taken.

Similar hardware *should not *mean anything, and generally it doesn't.

But all the equipment built by different manufacturers have to meet the specifications drawn up by DirecTV.

It would seem that *a few *of the newer models, like the HR22, for example, appear to have performance issues that will likely get addressed soon, just like they were in their predecessors.

I can understand frustration in getting a newer unit, only to have it "misbehave". Its important to keep in mind that this is much more a function of the firmware than the hardware itself.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

rich584 said:


> Naw, it's the 100s that are not as good as the 700s and suffer horribly in comparison. Now we'll hear from several people who have never had a problem with a 100. Well, some of them have to work to some degree, I guess.


I'm sure that is true. Honestly, I can't imagine they are all as bad as mine has been throughout its lifetime.

I just retired my (owned) HR21-100 today in favor of a receiver (got a refurb H20-600) -- was frankly sick of dealing with its problems, and realized that for what we use that unit for, a DVR wasn't actually _needed_.

I didn't shoot the HR21-100, though. 

Both of my HR20-700's are performing like champs at just about three years old.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> I'm sure that is true. Honestly, I can't imagine they are all as bad as mine has been throughout its lifetime.
> 
> I just retired my (owned) HR21-100 today in favor of a receiver (got a refurb H20-600) -- was frankly sick of dealing with its problems, and realized that for what we use that unit for, a DVR wasn't actually _needed_.
> 
> ...


My four are too. But then my three 21-700s and the new 23 and one lone 21-200 are all working as well as I could expect them to. A tad slower, but not by much. This is a good time, no problems at all.

Rich


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

To those of you that say your HR’s have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.

And please don’t tell me I the only one with,
1. Audio brrrrip and drop.
2. Missed recordings.
3. 30 sec slip Jump to end problem.
4. Slow gui.
5. Inconsistent remote response.
6. Inconsistent search results.
7. Incomplete guide data.
8. Slow channel change speed(2 sec would be great, mine is 6 to 10 sec)
9. Inconsistent trick play

I understand that some of the problems that the HR series have are a matter of perspective.
For instance, some people don’t use the 30 sec slip so wouldn’t ever experience problem 3.
Some people don’t use an AV receiver which means they wouldn’t experience problem 1.
Problem 7 would depend on what channels you watch, and yes, I say Directv is partially responsible for the guide data.
Problem 8 will vary depending on your TV.
Also fast and slow is relative; I have had a hdvr2 directivo and a Vip 622.
Going from the directivo to the 622, the 622 seemed a little slow, but then I got the HR and that made the 622 seem fast as lighting, so previous experience has a lot to do with it.
Also patience levels can vary from person to person, I just quit smoking so my HR is driving me nutz. :bang


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

CCarncross said:


> Using the current SAT technology, a DVR will never be as fast at channel changes as a non-DVR...facts will not change.


Well, I've got a bulletin for you then. The HD DVR bypasses the HDD when you change channels, so at channel change time it virtually _is_ a receiver and _is not _a DVR, and, BTW, the fact that the signal is MPEG-4 or coming from a sat has nothing to do with any difference either (since it does that both for receivers and DVRs alike). The way the signal is processed in both receivers and DVRs is exactly the same at channel acquisition time and HDD read/write delay had been eliminated from the equation. Only when you invoke trick play options (pause, rewind, skip, etc.) does the DVR revert to the HDD output path, and by then, of course, it doesn't even matter since you've altered the timeline.

Channel acquisition time (latency) is only affected by the GOP structure of the encoded video signal and by how often I frames are encountered. DTV actually adds extra I frames so that you aren't waiting up to 7 seconds for acquisition, which is what would be the case with otherwise-unaltered MPEG-4 AVC. And it's the same for receivers and DVRs (or at least DVRs that use the system DTV used on the HR2x).

Too bad. You actually sounded pretty sure of yourself.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

bdcottle said:


> To those of you that say your HR's have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.
> 
> And please don't tell me I the only one with,
> 1. Audio brrrrip and drop.
> ...


 1. rarely.. Seems to be limited to certain channels here..
2. never had one missed..
3. never, can que up 7 or 8 no problem..
4. mines seems fine..
5. unless I block it with stuff on my coffee table it works fine..
6. rarely use search, mostly pull straight from guide..
7. don't use info much but when I do it has enough info for me to tell what show is..
8. seems fine to me.. could be faster if I turned off native (tv is slower) Also I don't channel surf much, That's what I have a DVR for..
9. use mostly 30slip and replay, they work fine here


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

darn, missed one.

10. volume 10 db louder on commercials.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

bdcottle said:


> darn, missed one.
> 
> 10. volume 10 db louder on commercials.


 not directv's fault/problem.. call the local station..


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

not just local stations, national stations as well, history channel for example, and just as of the last NR. Was fine before that.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

bdcottle said:


> To those of you that say your HR's have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.
> 
> And please don't tell me I the only one with,
> 1. Audio brrrrip and drop.
> ...


50 series limit is not "having a problem", it is just the limit set. So far it has not caused me any problems. I don't use CIG. I might if it ever got fixed.

1. Definitely see it occasionally. Some channels much worse than others.
2. I don't miss recordings, period. (unless the Guide Data is Bad)
3. I've seen it. It has been there off and on/better or worse for some time.
4. I've seen it in many different "incarnations", not limited to GUI issues, but otherwise busy processing.
5. Remote: highly variable, and easily confused with #4 above.
6. My searches have always been simple and they work fine.
7. Common issue, especially depending on time since last reboot.
8. I don't channel surf, so I don't notice it or care much about it.
9. Generally trick play works as I expect it to (with the issue of jump-to-end not considered)

I've never been one to say that there no problems whatsoever. There was a time in the development of the HR20-700 that there were no problems I considered "major" for many months. Such is not the case presently, as much of what you have noted is beyond "annoying" and needs to be fixed.

Based on past experience, I expect they will be fixed. No one can predict priorities (CIG has been around forever, for example). In the two years of using the HR20-700, I've seen a lot of peaks and a few valleys. The bad news is that there are valleys. The good news is that there have been peaks in stability and features and the boxe(s) continue to be developed.

Overall, I'm pleased with the progress and hopeful for the future.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

bdcottle said:


> To those of you that say your HR's have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.
> 
> And please don't tell me I the only one with,
> 1. Audio brrrrip and drop.
> ...


1 - Occasional... but not anything different that when I watch live
2 - Never had a missed recording, other than when I screwed up my prioritizer and accidentally deleted a show in the list
3 - Use 30 Slip. I can jump to the end but it usually calls for several pushes of the 30 slip button
4 - No GUI problems other than would like to see more information on a large screen
5 - Usually immediately after a restart I get a slowdown in response time. After an hour or so everything is back to normal once the DVR settles down from the restart and all the background activities stop.
6 - Always found what I was searching for
7 - Complete to one person may be incomplete to another. I have no issues with Guide Data
8 - Running native on, yes it may take an extra second to change channels, depending on the syncing of the resolution of the channel being broadcast and the scaling of the DVR or TV. Not a big issue for me. I'm usually not that much in a hurry when I watch TV.
9 - Don't understand what inconsistent means. I use trickplay every day and it works just fine.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bdcottle said:


> To those of you that say your HR's have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.
> 
> And please don't tell me I the only one with,
> *1. Audio brrrrip and drop.
> ...



Occasionally, mostly on locals, especially on Fox & NBC.
I can't remember the last time I had a missed recording on the NR that wasn't due to tuner conflict or user error. It records every time just as it's supposed to.
Can't say as I've seen this problem. I've read about it but haven't seen it.
Can be pretty slow sometimes. It is faster then my previous DVRs were.
I don't know about inconsistent but on the NR I've seen some slow response.
In general I find this works well but it does need some attention but I suspect that it's related the CIG more then anything else.
I hate when that happens. It is a problem but not with the firmware or DirecTV itself. Blame Tribune
Six to ten seconds is pretty long. Mine is usually a couple of seconds. It has been as long as 6-8 seconds but for the most part if find it's 2-3 seconds.
I don't have much issue with trick play. It works correctly nearly every time. Once in a while it does something goofy but, for me, it's rare.

This is based solely on my own experience. I can't speak for how anything works for anyone else. 

Mike


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## bixfisher (Jul 10, 2007)

I have to laugh at all of this. Cable....DirecTV....dvr's and all this junk. Yes the service in some ways sucks, no doubt about it. In fact, the ONLY reason I stay here at D* is for the NFL Sunday Ticket and Superfan packages. It's the football, not the service that keeps me here. 
I remember the days of my Series 2 Tivo's and cable. They worked well, did the job and their upgrades seemed to always work the first time. I guess I just don't get the brain trust at DirecTV not working out that alliance with TIVO years ago. I guess their ego's got in the way. They have their own system but it's still not even in the same league as the current TIVO boxes.


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## wmj5 (Aug 26, 2007)

since I went on hd I have had about 5 or 6 receivers, and I'm wondering if D* has a single receiver that works perfect, I just wish they would go back and let any company make them like they use to, I bet they would make more $$$$ if they did, they wouldn't have to keep running those trucks up and down the road switching them out, the last one I got was the H23-600 brand-new, a week later it started screwing up.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

bdcottle said:


> To those of you that say your HR's have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.
> 
> And please don't tell me I the only one with,
> 1. Audio brrrrip and drop.
> ...


Channels I Get has been a problem for ever and there is obviously a technical issue that they haven't been able to solve yet. I never use it anyway.
50 series link limit is how it works, it isn't a software bug.

1. Brrrp. Nothing to do with the DVRs, it's a problem with the signals form the sttions and the DirecTV encoders.
2. Missed recordings. Have four DVRs and only one missed recording in three years, and that was a guide data screwup.
3. 30 second slip. Never seen the 30 second slip problem, but don't use it much anyway. I suspect it's a performance issue (see 4).
4. Slow GUI. As a former programmer for embedded systems like the HR series, this is my biggest issue. I am convinced that someone who really understands how to optimise performance could significantly improve this, even if there are constraints because of the chipset.
5. Inconsistent remote response. never seen it.
6. Inconsistent search results. Never had a problem with the searches I do.
7. Incomplete guide data. No issues at all for me.
8. Slow channel change speed. See 4. It's longer than I think it should be but I rarely "channel surf", in fact like many DVR users I virtually never watch live TV anyway. 
9. trick play. Use it a lot and have no problems.

I have four DVRs, three different models.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

bdcottle said:


> To those of you that say your HR's have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.
> 
> And please don't tell me I the only one with,
> 1. Audio brrrrip and drop.
> ...


1. No AV receiver, yet I get audio brrips occasionally
2. Only missed recording was user error
3. Haven't noticed this, but don't use 30 sec slip very often
4. Haven't noticed this either
5. Nor this
6. Unhappy that search results often result in programs on channels I don't subscribe to, but doubt that this will ever change
7. My guide data usually displays up to about 12 days consistently
8. Channel change is about 2 seconds here and I have native on
9. Trick play (FF, RW) seems to work well most of the time

I agree that Channels I Get is still broken but it's not a major problem. The 50 series limit is not a problem here; I only record about five series programs a week anyway.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

bixfisher said:


> I have to laugh at all of this. Cable....DirecTV....dvr's and all this junk. Yes the service in some ways sucks, no doubt about it. In fact, the ONLY reason I stay here at D* is for the NFL Sunday Ticket and Superfan packages. It's the football, not the service that keeps me here.
> I remember the days of my Series 2 Tivo's and cable. They worked well, did the job and their upgrades seemed to always work the first time. I guess I just don't get the brain trust at DirecTV not working out that alliance with TIVO years ago. I guess their ego's got in the way. They have their own system but it's still not even in the same league as the current TIVO boxes.


The new HD DirecTivo is supposed to be out in the 1st half of 2010.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

bixfisher said:


> I have to laugh at all of this. Cable....DirecTV....dvr's and all this junk. Yes the service in some ways sucks, no doubt about it. In fact, the ONLY reason I stay here at D* is for the NFL Sunday Ticket and Superfan packages. It's the football, not the service that keeps me here.
> I remember the days of my Series 2 Tivo's and cable. They worked well, did the job and their upgrades seemed to always work the first time. I guess I just don't get the brain trust at DirecTV not working out that alliance with TIVO years ago. I guess their ego's got in the way. They have their own system but it's still not even in the same league as the current TIVO boxes.


Yeah you have to wonder if it wasn't TiVo Inc. who bollocks-ed that deal themselves.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yeah you have to wonder if it wasn't TiVo Inc. who bollocks-ed that deal themselves.


I do believe that DirecTV already having the HDDVR+ enabled DirecTV to get a better deal with Tivo compared to what Tivo wanted before.But then again we will have to see.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Jhon69 said:


> I do believe that DirecTV already having the HDDVR+ enabled DirecTV to get a better deal with Tivo compared to what Tivo wanted before.But then again we will have to see.


Well I should hope so. If it didn't they need to fire their negotiating team. Tivo had them over a barrel when they had no DVR option, and they had to pay Tivo about a buck-thirty a month per sub; now they have their own DVR that in many ways is superior to Tivo. No way the new deal's anywhere close to as good for Tivo as the old one was. I'm not even sure the new Tivo will be good enough compared to the HD DVR+ to be considered a premium DVR.


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## kramer (Jun 6, 2007)

TomCat said:


> I'm not even sure the new Tivo will be good enough compared to the HD DVR+ to be considered a premium DVR.


Based on what?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

TomCat said:


> No way the new deal's anywhere close to as good for Tivo as the old one was.


You need to read what's left of the TiVo contract. There's a heavily redacted version laying around here somewhere. The price went up and DIRECTV had to guarantee a minimum level of revenues as I recall. That seems like a much sweeter deal in spite of your reasoning to the contrary.


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

I've got to laugh when the HR fanboys trash the tivo vaporware. like any of us has a clue if it will be good or bad.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

bdcottle said:


> I've got to laugh when the HR fanboys trash the tivo vaporware. like any of us has a clue if it will be good or bad.


And when Tivo "fanboys" (I really dislike that term) trash the HR2X series without acknowledging that it contains some improvements over the HR10.

I liked Tivo. I loved ReplayTV. I loved UltimateTV even more. I like my HR20-700s. I hated my HR21-100 and got rid of it. I do hope that the new HD DirecTivo actually comes to fruition.

There are pros and cons to all the platforms (and providers). Blind allegiance to any of 'em isn't wise. And the bickering can get tiresome.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

bwaldron said:


> ... I like my HR20-700s. I hated my HR21-100 and got rid of it. I do hope that the new HD DirecTivo actually comes to fruition...


Did you *replace* your HR21-100 or just get rid of it? I ask because I'd really, really like to replace my HR21-200 [made in Indonesia] -- but I understand from everything I've read here that you can't get what you want unless you buy it from a store. Even though it's still going to be leased!

I, too, am waiting with bated breath for the new HD DirecTivo to appear. Sure, it'll cost me to upgrade, but I've no doubt it'll be worth it.

BTW, I agree with you that the HR2x has some very nice features that my old HR10-250 doesn't have. But it's w-a-a-a-y slow, and search results are corrupted with PPV, VOD and other CIDW (Channels I Don't Want). And the design of the HR2x user interface is what I like to call *user-grouchy*.

Does anyone know where the programmers responsible for maintaining the software are? In this country or perhaps in Asia?

Could it be that the programmers responsible for introducing new features are a *different group *from the programmers that are trying to fix old bugs or add items from the wish list?


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Syzygy said:


> Did you *replace* your HR21-100 or just get rid of it?


Both, sort of. It was an owned unit, so I still have it (deactivated). I picked up an HD receiver from DirecTV to use in its place (decided that we really didn't need a DVR in the room it was in, especially given how painfully slow the HR21-100 was to use.)


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## Bruceski44 (Sep 27, 2007)

I have two HD DVRs, an HR20 and HR23. The 20 reboots on its own every couple of weeks, but other than that is acceptable. I have had several HR23s and they are BAD. Connect to On Demand, lose all your recordings. Frequent lockups and crashes. Delayed response to remote commands.

I laughed when I got an email from DTV and they were describing how to connect an external HDD to increase storage space. I have read all the threads here and am an electronic engineer. Using two different (recommended) drives, the DVR became a lockup and crash festival. Frequent losses of all recordings and settings. Of course at the end of the email article, they say it's not supported! This is a flagrant cop-out to try and compensate for this incredibly unreliable platform.

I support the electronic equipment sold by my employer. If we had any equipment that performed this poorly, we would be out of business! The difference with DTV? Their monopoly over NFL ST. That is the only thing keeping me here.

There are some nice features in the HR2x DVRs, but there's no amount of wriggling or compensating that can overcome the fact that it is an unreliable platform. I realize that many stuttering and pixelization type problems may come from the network and not from DTV, but all the other problems are clearly attributable to a bad design.

The DTV/TiVO partnership may result in a reliable platform (again) but until then, I'm stuck. Especially since you cannot replace a defective DVR without agreeing to a 2 year commitment. This is extortion!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Bruceski44 said:


> I have two HD DVRs, an HR20 and HR23. The 20 reboots on its own every couple of weeks, but other than that is acceptable. I have had several HR23s and they are BAD. Connect to On Demand, lose all your recordings. Frequent lockups and crashes. Delayed response to remote commands.
> 
> I laughed when I got an email from DTV and they were describing how to connect an external HDD to increase storage space. I have read all the threads here and am an electronic engineer. Using two different (recommended) drives, the DVR became a lockup and crash festival. Frequent losses of all recordings and settings. Of course at the end of the email article, they say it's not supported! This is a flagrant cop-out to try and compensate for this incredibly unreliable platform.
> 
> ...


All the issues you're posting about are ABNORMAL. Those things should not be happening.

You should start a thread and see if we can help.

Like me, you should not have lockups, missed recordings, etc. There is something wrong with your setup and we can help you track it down.

Mike


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Bruceski44 said:


> ... If [my employer] had any equipment that performed this poorly, we would be out of business! The difference with DTV? Their monopoly over NFL ST. That is *the only thing keeping me here*.
> 
> There are some nice features in the HR2x DVRs, but there's no amount of wriggling or compensating that can overcome the fact that it is an unreliable platform. I realize that many stuttering and pixelization type problems may come from the network and not from DTV, but all the other problems are clearly attributable to a bad design.
> 
> The DTV/TiVO partnership may result in a reliable platform (again) but until then, I'm stuck. Especially since *you cannot replace a defective DVR* without agreeing to a 2 year commitment. This is extortion!


I became a D* subscriber in 2004 only because of the HR10-250, for which I paid $900. It was the only way for me to have a workable HD DVR. Dish didn't have one at the time; Comcast's sucked. Now *the only thing keeping me here* is that I'm still using that HR10-250 (along with my HR21-200, with which I grow unhappier each time there's a new software release).

Actually, *you cannot replace a defective DVR* except with another defective DVR! That's all they've got right now. Some people here say the HR20's are faster (relative to the other HR2x's), but it seems D* doesn't have those to give out anymore. I've had two HR21's.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

wmj5 said:


> since I went on hd I have had about 5 or 6 receivers, and I'm wondering if D* has a single receiver that works perfect, I just wish they would go back and let any company make them like they use to, I bet they would make more $$$$ if they did, they wouldn't have to keep running those trucks up and down the road switching them out, the last one I got was the H23-600 brand-new, a week later it started screwing up.


I'd say that the current software release for the H20 in my bedroom has solved a lot of issues I'd had in the past with it. It's fast, doesn't bug out anymore and the ATSC tuner signal strength meter is working correctly again.

And, their SD receivers all seem pretty solid. I think it's a D10 or D11 in the other bedroom. It's small, doesn't run hot, is lightning fast and AFAIK has never crashed or rebooted. It's the only device that I can toy with the Game Lounge stuff on and not get frustrated.

So yeah, they DO know how to make reliable, decent equipment. On the LOW end of the scale. :lol:


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## Bruceski44 (Sep 27, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> So yeah, they DO know how to make reliable, decent equipment. On the LOW end of the scale. :lol:


In my day job, I've seen some really outstanding HDMI signal quality on some of the contractor's DVRs. They got this part right, even on the high end. But still fall far short of acceptable reliability.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bdcottle said:


> To those of you that say your HR's have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.


I have no problem with either the 50 SLs or the CIG. I don't use the CIG and I have my programs spread over nine HRs.



> And please don't tell me I the only one with,
> 1. Audio brrrrip and drop.


I get the occasional brrrip, and I don't know what you mean by "drop".



> 2. Missed recordings.


Nope



> 3. 30 sec slip Jump to end problem.


Had it with the 22 I had, but since I got rid of it, no problem.



> 4. Slow gui.


Nope



> 5. Inconsistent remote response.


Nope



> 6. Inconsistent search results.


Nope



> 7. Incomplete guide data.


Nope



> 8. Slow channel change speed(2 sec would be great, mine is 6 to 10 sec)


Nope



> 9. Inconsistent trick play


Not at all.

Rich


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Can you all let this thread die, please?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

smiddy said:


> Can you all let this thread die, please?


It has been beaten to death, hasn't it? And just think, on the next NR, we'll get to go thru this again. :lol::lol::lol:

Rich


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

smiddy said:


> Can you all let this thread die, please?


Better to keep all us complainers in one place than to spread it out all over the forums, no? :lol:


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

I am f'n around with on-demand...it sucks, it rarely works , i have 15Mb down...i have aN IP assigned as confirmed by the HR23-700.....yeah it sucks...but I can deal..I don't have to deal with Comcrap anymore...the DVR is middle o the line....but it work s kinda...its no ViP or TiVO...but let me reiterate...NO MORE COMCAST


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Tom Servo said:


> Better to keep all us complainers in one place than to spread it out all over the forums, no? :lol:


Only with a very tall (electric) fence....


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

rich584 said:


> It has been beaten to death, hasn't it? And just think, on the next NR, we'll get to go thru this again. :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> Rich


:thats::grin:

Time flys when we having fun.


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

Somehow some of you have missed the point of my post. Maybe I didn’t explain myself correctly.
All HR’s have problems, you may not experience the problems because of the way you use yours, or you may have lower expatiations of performance than others but at the very least you have the CIG problem.
For example, Rich, you have 9 HR’s so the 50 series link limit is not a problem for you but is a big problem for me because I can only afford one and only have room for one. Imagine just for one minute that you had to get rid of 8 of your HR’s and consolidate your series links to one unit, would the 50 series link limit be a problem now?
So bottom line, you who say you have no problem with your HR, if I had your HR I would have a problem with it because of the way I use a DVR and my performance expatiations.
I have had three in the last year and this is the best one so far. The other two were completely unusable. If not for the ETF or the promise of a new HD Directivo. I would have to go back to Dish just to save my sanity. Even though it would cost me $12.00 more a month and they have less HD.
I’m sorry but it feels like those that say their HR is perfect are telling me that I don’t know what I’m doing. And I am retired air force PMEL.
Sorry about the rant, just quit smoking.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

bdcottle said:


> Somehow some of you have missed the point of my post. Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly.
> All HR's have problems, you may not experience the problems because of the way you use yours, or you may have lower expatiations of performance than others but at the very least you have the CIG problem.
> For example, Rich, you have 9 HR's so the 50 series link limit is not a problem for you but is a big problem for me because I can only afford one and only have room for one. Imagine just for one minute that you had to get rid of 8 of your HR's and consolidate your series links to one unit, would the 50 series link limit be a problem now?
> So bottom line, you who say you have no problem with your HR, if I had your HR I would have a problem with it because of the way I use a DVR and my performance expatiations.
> ...


There are ways around the 50 series limit... Create ARSLs that cover multiple shows... If you want specifics, PM me, I'd be happy to help! I don't have the issues you describe. The only time I have audio issues is on my local fox, and thats because they are causing the problem, not Directv.... As for the CIG problem.. Its really only a problem for people like me who use ARSL's.... and there is a way around that too.. Otherwise, CIG is not really a problem, for anyone.


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## volkl (Jun 17, 2007)

its tough to accept the objectivity of one who has nine HR's.

D* rate of improvement to acceptable stability of its HR hardware needs to improve. quickly.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I find Rich to be objective, he may not be able to keep a perfect track record of all Nine receivers as well as someone who just has one, it's easy to not notice a missed recording when you have nine HR's! But I must say on many issue's he has clearly stated the problems he has had and most of them are the same one's we all have.



volkl said:


> its tough to accept the objectivity of one who has nine HR's.
> 
> D* rate of improvement to acceptable stability of its HR hardware needs to improve. quickly.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

1. Oh Yeah, mine Briiips a few times every Hour on certain shows/Channels
I don't buy into the story that it's mostly the stations fault! I think most of the time it's something to do with how the mp4 signal is encoded at the headend. I have almost never heard it on the orginal uplinks.

2. Yep, still happens, when it does, most times it's just a black screen and a then a delete message. BTW you forgot Half recorded shows!

3. Yep it Sucks they need to remove that.

4. Mines not too bad. I have an HR20 and HR23. The HR20-100 is much faster than the HR23 but It's still only 2 seconds or less.

5. I use a Harmony 890 so I am never sure who's at fault when this happens.

6. Nope not had that yet! But I must admit I don't search all that much.

7. No have never seen that. I have seen inaccurate listings, but I guess that is to be expected since God does not type in the Guide Data.

8. Mine is about 2-3 seconds, which I find annoying! I can't imagine 6-10. I would throw the HR out the window.

9. Dont use that much, but since it's trick play can we really complain?



bdcottle said:


> To those of you that say your HR's have no problems at all; how did you fix the Channels I get problems or the 50 Series link limit. I thought these problems were across the whole HR series.
> 
> And please don't tell me I the only one with,
> 1. Audio brrrrip and drop.
> ...


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Whats your voltage like? Even if you have them plugged into a UPS, Most UPS's will not compensate for slightly low voltage like 105V. I find the HR receivers to be very finicky about low voltage. the response is usually a reboot. My first guess is that when some heavy appliance you have switches on like an AC or clothes dryer or Microwave oven it may be dropping your voltage for a second or two.



Bruceski44 said:


> I have two HD DVRs, an HR20 and HR23. The 20 reboots on its own every couple of weeks, but other than that is acceptable. I have had several HR23s and they are BAD. Connect to On Demand, lose all your recordings. Frequent lockups and crashes. Delayed response to remote commands.
> 
> The DTV/TiVO partnership may result in a reliable platform (again) but until then, I'm stuck. Especially since you cannot replace a defective DVR without agreeing to a 2 year commitment. This is extortion!


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> As for the CIG problem.. Its really only a problem for people like me who use ARSL's.... and there is a way around that too.. Otherwise, CIG is not really a problem, for anyone.


I'm one of the biggest "my HR20 works great!" people, but CIG is a problem. It just plain doesn't work and to say "CIG is not really a problem, for anyone" is simply not true. And I don't even use autorecords or wishlists. I just want to be able to create a favorite channels list by starting out by adding the channels I get without it adding an extra 50 channels that I don't get. I shouldn't have to print off a list of channels in my package from the website and compare them, which isn't real helpful anyway because the list is alphabetic, not numeric, or have to tune to each channel to see if I get it or not.

So yes, CIG is really a problem for a lot of people.

Unlike CIG, the 50 SL limit is not a bug, it's how it was designed and works correctly, for better or worse. I only have one HR and it hasn't been an issue for me yet I max out at about 30. I actually like to remove shows that are in their off-seasons, especially the cable series that only have 13 episodes, because it makes it easier for me to organize the prioritizer, although I realize a lot of people don't like having to do that to stay under the limit. But again, it works as it was designed, it's not a bug.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

dbronstein said:


> I'm one of the biggest "my HR20 works great!" people, but CIG is a problem... I shouldn't have to print off a list of channels in my package from the website and compare them...
> 
> Unlike CIG, the 50 SL limit is not a bug, it's how it was designed and works correctly, for better or worse. ... it works as it was designed, it's not a bug.


Even though this post felt to me like it was trolling for an argument, I'll bite.

Having undesirable channels added by D* to your carefully-pruned channel list is a problem that's not unique to DirecTV receivers; it happens with my HR10-250 too. (The odd thing is that they're not always the same channels that are added.) You should understand that it's part of D*'s grand marketing scheme, which includes the inescapable pollution of search results with their VOD offerings. So: the CIG problem is definitely NOT a bug, it's design-by-marketing at its worst.

You say the 50 SL limit is not a bug, it's how it was designed and works correctly. This is only your opinion. IMO, the limit was added after the testers discovered that more than 50 SLs caused the whole system to grind to a halt. (Even 45 SLs make the system extremely slow.) The D* software simply is not as capable as TiVo's software, which in my experience can handle as many as 150 Season Passes with aplomb.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Syzygy said:


> Even though this post felt to me like it was trolling for an argument, I'll bite.
> 
> Having undesirable channels added by D* to your carefully-pruned channel list is a problem that's not unique to DirecTV receivers; it happens with my HR10-250 too. (The odd thing is that they're not always the same channels that are added.) You should understand that it's part of D*'s grand marketing scheme, which includes the inescapable pollution of search results with their VOD offerings. So: the CIG problem is definitely NOT a bug, it's design-by-marketing at its worst.
> 
> You say the 50 SL limit is not a bug, it's how it was designed and works correctly. This is only your opinion. IMO, the limit was added after the testers discovered that more than 50 SLs caused the whole system to grind to a halt. (Even 45 SLs make the system extremely slow.) The D* software simply is not as capable as TiVo's software, which in my experience can handle as many as 150 Season Passes with aplomb.


I wasn't trolling for an argument, I was just pointing out the difference between a bug and a bad feature.

I understand that D* returning search results from channels you don't get is a marketing ploy. But the CIG guide displaying extra channels is a bug IMO and not a marketing ploy because I think they do want it to only show the channels you subscribe to. Of course I could be wrong and it really is intentional.

And the 50 SL is not a bug, it works correctly. As you say, it was probably put in because poor programming made more SL unworkable. But it works exactly as advertised - you can enter up to 50 SL and no more. I agree that it should be able to handle more than 50 and that it's not very hard to hit the limit. But that doesn't make it a bug. A bug is when something doesn't work as it is supposed to and this works exactly as it is supposed to. It would just be better if it worked differently.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dbronstein said:


> ...I was just pointing out the difference between a bug and a bad feature.
> 
> ...the 50 SL is not a bug, it works correctly. As you say, it was probably put in because poor programming made more SL unworkable.


....or it could just be that at the time the specification was created, no one envisioned anyone needing more than 50 SL's. 

But to your point, it works as designed.

Whether or not is changed remains to be seen. Who knows...maybe there are alternatives under consideration that none of us knows about.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

dbronstein said:


> ... And the 50 SL is not a bug, it works correctly. As you say, it was probably put in because poor programming made more SL unworkable... It would just be better if it worked differently.


It's semantics, then. What word can one use to describe a software limitation that irritates many users and exists only because it was added to hide the fact that the underlying software is inadequate? That inadequacy is really the "bug" to which I have been alluding. Call it what you will -- design deficiency, bad database design, an inadequate database methodology -- it all boils down to this: Something *needs to be fixed*. And crippling the software by imposing limits on its usefulness is not a fix.

The longer the underlying problem remains untreated, the more I think the maintenance programmers are on a deathwatch for this software, expecting all difficulties to be solved by the advent of (ta-daaa!) TiVo software.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bdcottle said:


> Somehow some of you have missed the point of my post. Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly.
> All HR's have problems, you may not experience the problems because of the way you use yours, or you may have lower expatiations of performance than others but at the very least you have the CIG problem.


I really don't remember what the CIG problem is. I do have one HR with it and I don't recall any problems. Could you explain it again?



> For example, Rich, you have 9 HR's so the 50 series link limit is not a problem for you but is a big problem for me because I can only afford one and only have room for one. Imagine just for one minute that you had to get rid of 8 of your HR's and consolidate your series links to one unit, would the 50 series link limit be a problem now?


I don't know. I've had to drop some SLs on some of my HRs. Don't forget, the reason I have so many is because I don't trust them, or their eSATAs and use five for backing each other up.



> So bottom line, you who say you have no problem with your HR, if I had your HR I would have a problem with it because of the way I use a DVR and my performance expatiations.


I don't know how much harder I could use mine. When I watch a sports program, I really give them a workout. That's one of the ways I have sorted out my HRs over the years. If they keep crashing during a game, I get a replacement. But, to be honest, I haven't had many problems since getting my whole system (the feeds to the HRs) redone and added an additional dish.



> I have had three in the last year and this is the best one so far. The other two were completely unusable. If not for the ETF or the promise of a new HD Directivo. I would have to go back to Dish just to save my sanity. Even though it would cost me $12.00 more a month and they have less HD.
> I'm sorry but it feels like those that say their HR is perfect are telling me that I don't know what I'm doing. And I am retired air force PMEL.
> Sorry about the rant, just quit smoking.


What is a PMEL? As for not knowing what you are doing, I've got a lot of experience with electrical troubleshooting and I was stuck until I found this forum. Nothing in my previous experience prepared me for the nightmare we faced in '06, when the HRs made their entry. I can say this truthfully: I didn't know what I was doing and I'm still puzzled by some of the stuff that pops up. It's a learning curve that is too steep for most people to cope with.

I do think that the problems most people have is related to the way their installations were made. I don't think most people realize just how buggy these things are if you don't feed them correctly. I do realize that a lot of people get HRs that are not up to par. Sadly, I don't think that's gonna stop. It seems pretty obvious that D* has a poor quality control program, if they even have one. I know in the services, quality control is a prime objective. Without it, planes crash, ships sink, tanks stop, etc.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

volkl said:


> its tough to accept the objectivity of one who has nine HR's.


I don't know what to say to that. They all work. Took a long time to reach this point, but I do try to be objective. I've been called a D* shill by folks who didn't get to read my posts in '06 and '07, but, believe me, I have no great allegiance to D*. Something better comes along and I'd consider switching, but I'm not gonna go thru the nightmare that we went thru when the HRs were introduced.



> D* rate of improvement to acceptable stability of its HR hardware needs to improve. quickly.


Now that's subjective. They are so much better than they were that it's almost unbelievable.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> I find Rich to be objective, he may not be able to keep a perfect track record of all Nine receivers as well as someone who just has one, it's easy to not notice a missed recording when you have nine HR's! But I must say on many issue's he has clearly stated the problems he has had and most of them are the same one's we all have.


Thanx. That's why I don't have my setup listed. Add six plasmas to the nine HRs and people get offended. I understand that.

I've always enjoyed the intelligence level of the members and always assumed a level of affluence that those members have. I realize that isn't true for everybody and I have a tendency to generalize, but for the most part, I think those two assumptions are generally correct.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Even though this post felt to me like it was trolling for an argument, I'll bite.


Ah, c'mon. That wasn't somebody looking for an argument. All he did was state facts.



> You say the 50 SL limit is not a bug, it's how it was designed and works correctly. This is only your opinion. IMO, the limit was added after the testers discovered that more than 50 SLs caused the whole system to grind to a halt. (Even 45 SLs make the system extremely slow.) The D* software simply is not as capable as TiVo's software, which in my experience can handle as many as 150 Season Passes with aplomb.


I've got several with over 40 SLs and don't see any bogging down.

Rich


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

Rich,

PMEL,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_measurement_equipment_laboratory


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

rich584 said:


> Ah, c'mon. That wasn't somebody looking for an argument. All he did was state facts.


Didja notice that I said _"*felt to me* like it was trolling"_? I hope no one thought I was calling dbronstein a troll.

It turns out there was only a minor difference in attitude between him and me. But he hammered his point home so much in that one post _(the 50 SL limit is not a bug, it's how it was designed and works correctly... again, it works as it was designed, it's not a bug)_ that I sensed an emotional pro-D* bias.

Maybe that was a mistake on my part.

Let me do a little hammering of my own: The phrase _"works as it was designed" _should not be used at all in the context of Series Links (not to mention Autorecorded Keyword Searches).


----------



## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

I can't speak for anything other than the 3 HR22-100s that I have but...

They stink compared to the Dish Network HD DVRs. Not even close. If I ignore how painfully slow they are they beat the Motorola DVRs that Comcast uses. 

In the real world I don't know of ANY DVR slower than my HR22s. I used to think my HD DirecTivo was too slow but even that was faster...

Let's face it people - will defend to the death whatever choice they made. All of the DVRs have some issue or another but the slow response of the HR22 makes it difficult for anyone to use... Except for the "fan-boys" that have decided to ignore reality.... 

I think if I had gone from the Comcast Motorola POS it would be easier but I switched from a Dish HD DVR to the HR22. I was so used to being able to quickly scroll down the guide or list of recordings and hitting select. Now I have to carefully push a button, wait, bust a button, wait, wait, wait, push a button, wait and then hit select... Only to do it again because I didn't wait long enough on the last waiting period so I selected the wrong one.

DirecTV should be ashamed of at least the HR22.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

bdcottle said:


> ... And I am retired air force PMEL.


Evidently, in the USAF, you are where you work (rather than what you do).  'Cuz you're saying "I am [a] retired air force *Precision Measurement Equipment Laboratory*."

By analogy, I'm a retired Software Engineering Department. 

OTOH, I'm sure no one could have known what 324x0 or 2P0x1 (with "x" denoting a level of expertise) meant, either.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> I can't speak for anything other than the 3 HR22-100s that I have but...
> 
> They stink compared to the Dish Network HD DVRs. Not even close.
> 
> DirecTV should be ashamed of at least the HR22.


Your comparison may have some validity based on this snapshot in time.

The HR22's have not been out that long, and will likely have firmware updates that will bring them up to speed with other HRx series HD DVRs that are more mature.

Since you have only 13 posts here since 2004, I'm not sure what your history is with these units....but if you went back in time 2 years, you'd likely read similar content about the HR20-700, which now makes most of the Dish HD DVRs look silly. Dish has other "issues" plaguing those devices....not what we're talking about here.

Assuming they address the sluggish performance on the HR22's just like they did with other units before....things should be fine, and so should your experience.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...but if you went back in time 2 years, you'd likely read similar content about the HR20-700, which now makes most of the Dish HD DVRs look silly.


Huh? By silly, you mean silly fast, silly intuitive, silly perfect?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

peano said:


> Huh? By silly, you mean silly fast, silly intuitive, silly perfect?


Silly to compare.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Your comparison may have some validity based on this snapshot in time.
> 
> The HR22's have not been out that long, and will likely have firmware updates that will bring them up to speed with other HRx series HD DVRs that are more mature.
> 
> ...


I have had my HR22s for about 9 months... They are getting slower as time goes on. Reboots used to help (a little) for a a week or two but now it really doesn't make much of a difference.

I have 'played' around with my neighbors HR20 and while it is faster than my HR22s it is still in slow motion compared to my old Dish Network 622 and is completely blown away by another neighbor's Dish Network 722.

I don't understand your "silly" comment. From what I have seen the with the newer dish DVRs and my personal use for years of a 622 with Dish the only "silly" thing would be that someone would prefer an HR20 over any of them!

I haven't posted here much - not sure how that applies - but it still doesn't change the fact that the HR22 is a POS! I would give up Sunday Ticket and switch back to Dish if it wouldn't cost me the $800 or so investment I have it DirecTV. If things don't get better soon - I suspect they won't - I will just eat it and switch back to Dish Network.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Syzygy said:


> Didja notice that I said _"*felt to me* like it was trolling"_? I hope no one thought I was calling dbronstein a troll.
> 
> It turns out there was only a minor difference in attitude between him and me. But he hammered his point home so much in that one post _(the 50 SL limit is not a bug, it's how it was designed and works correctly... again, it works as it was designed, it's not a bug)_ that I sensed an emotional pro-D* bias.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have a pro-D* bias because I have been extremely satisfied with my HR20 for the last year and I half. As I said, I am in the "My HR works great!" group. I agree that the units are far from perfect (the CIG is my biggest gripe). I just take issue with calling the 50 SL limit a bug. IMO, it's in the same category as the lack of DLB and MRV, and other features are missing or could be improved.

I'll use my other big annoyance as another example - when you do a manual recording it groups the shows in a folder with the day/time rather than putting them in folders with the show titles. This is how it was designed to work, and IMO it's a very poor design, but it's not a bug.

Obviously I'm not going to change your mind about whether the 50 SL limit is a bug and you're not going to change mine. But we do agree that the units should be programmed better so they can handle more SLs.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Having undesirable channels added by D* to your carefully-pruned channel list is a problem that's not unique to DirecTV receivers; it happens with my HR10-250 too. (The odd thing is that they're not always the same channels that are added.) You should understand that it's part of D*'s grand marketing scheme, which includes the inescapable pollution of search results with their VOD offerings. So: the CIG problem is definitely NOT a bug, it's design-by-marketing at its worst.


The HR10-250 only adds channels to CIG when they "change". Some stations flip the change flag on daily. And on the HR10-250 CIG is SET BY THE USER. Big difference, as you probably won't fill it up with Spanish language.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bdcottle said:


> Rich,
> 
> PMEL,
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_measurement_equipment_laboratory


Thanx, didn't know anything like that existed.

Rich


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

dbronstein said:


> ... Obviously I'm not going to change your mind about whether the 50 SL limit is a bug and you're not going to change mine. But we do agree that the units should be programmed better so they can handle more SLs.


Actually, I did change my stance when I said the _"inadequacy [in the underlying software] is really the 'bug' to which I have been alluding."_


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

This is exactly the kind of reply that gets to me.
The HR22 has been out a lot longer than the HR23 and the HR23 is not anywhere near as slow as the HR22. So please explain why the HR22 is still so slow?????????????????????????

Will there ever be a day when certain people on this forum will admit that the HR22 is a complete Lemon? After all it happens to the best of companies, of course if most companies could needle away the 2 year contract period using promises rather than action, I am sure that most companies would do that.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Your comparison may have some validity based on this snapshot in time.
> 
> The HR22's have not been out that long, and will likely have firmware updates that will bring them up to speed with other HRx series HD DVRs that are more mature.
> 
> ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dreadlk said:


> This is exactly the kind of reply that gets to me.
> The HR22 has been out a lot longer than the HR23 and the HR23 is not anywhere near as slow as the HR22.


No one disputed problems with the HR22.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

So it took 4 years to get the HR20 faster and still *NO WHERE NEAR* the speed of a 622/722?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Your comparison may have some validity based on this snapshot in time.
> 
> The HR22's have not been out that long, and will likely have firmware updates that will bring them up to speed with other HRx series HD DVRs that are more mature.
> 
> ...


The HR20 of a year and a half ago was slower than the Vip622 that I had from Dish when I made the switch. Then when that didn't work out because of the 771 error on tuner 2 that caused me to go through 3 of them before getting an HR21.

It too was slower than the Vip622, and slower than the HR20. And updates made it worse, not better. Sluggish, non-responsive to the remote, skip-to-end-feature-that-is-really-a-bug and you've described the HR21 to a T, and it appears the HR22 and HR23.

Now I've got a Dish Vip722 in addition to my HR21. There is no comparison of any feature that makes the HR21 look good. The Vip722 is very much quicker, no skip to end crap and the remote response is as it should be.

I'll be keeping my Direct for a bit because I like the 101 and my locals in HD, but at some time in the very near future, I'll be shipping that HR21 back to Direct for its last time.

So no, comparisons of HDDVR today between Dish and Direct is not silly. The comparison shows that Dish still produces better equipment.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

peano said:


> So it took 4 years to get the HR20 faster and still *NO WHERE NEAR* the speed of a 622/722?


There's a whole lot more to it than speed.

As for Dish producing better equipment???...one of my neighbors went through *3* 622's before he got one that didn't lock up regularly. He then "upgraded" to the 722, and just got his *second* one of those - his first froze on playbacks alot. That's just over a total of about 20 months.

My point is that to properly compare...take a 2 year old unit and compare with a 2 year old unit (model), and see where that gets you (not just speed). Do the same for 1 year old models. Overall, if you discard anomolies that can be found for Dish and DirecTV both....you'll find the comparison is pretty much a draw.


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## volkl (Jun 17, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I don't know what to say to that. They all work. Took a long time to reach this point, but I do try to be objective. I've been called a D* shill by folks who didn't get to read my posts in '06 and '07, but, believe me, I have no great allegiance to D*. Something better comes along and I'd consider switching, but I'm not gonna go thru the nightmare that we went thru when the HRs were introduced.
> 
> Now that's subjective. They are so much better than they were that it's almost unbelievable.
> 
> Rich


It may be tough to accept the objectivity of one who paid the lease fee for 9 HR receivers, over a long period of time, as you say, so that means you liked them enough even before they improved so dramatically. But, I did not mean to call you a fan boy, and while it may be tough to accept, you may indeed be very objective. I apoligize. I am not looking to argue.

As for my statement that D* needs to improve more being subjective ----- ok. There is no argument, D* has indeed come a long long way ---- and, I might add, over a long long time. But it is still a long way to Tipperary, in my subjective opinion.

It would be preferable, if they gave higher priority to stability (meaning dvr functionality), then secondly go for the whiz bang features (such as TV Apps, etc.) They seem to be in a rush to add features without giving sufficient emphasis to key functions. The fact that it has taken this long to get to where we are, especially in comparison to Tivo software, which is frustrating and this underscores their apparent lack of devotion of resources and talent to develop a good receiver without subjecting subscribers to national release versions which are essentially still beta versions, in my opinion.

And why do they do updates (or usually emergency updates) during prime time television? Perhaps it is because they are developing for too many receiver types?

Lastly, I am sick of the Brippps. And I know it is not exclusive to D*, but hey, I wish THEY would be the first to either fix it, or reveal the actual source of the problem. Then again, they may not even know either.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> This is exactly the kind of reply that gets to me.
> The HR22 has been out a lot longer than the HR23 and the HR23 is not anywhere near as slow as the HR22. So please explain why the HR22 is still so slow?????????????????????????
> 
> Will there ever be a day when certain people on this forum will admit that the HR22 is a complete Lemon? After all it happens to the best of companies, of course if most companies could needle away the 2 year contract period using promises rather than action, I am sure that most companies would do that.


That 22 I had for three months, still can't believe I bought it, was fast. And did everything very well. The problem was as the days went by, the slip to the end of the recording got worse and worse. But it was surprisingly fast. And for the first three weeks or so worked shockingly well. I kept thinking my rants about any HR ending in 100 were completely off base. Then the slipping started. The day I hit Play and it immediately went to the end of the recording, I gave up on it. If it's not one thing with the 22s, it's another. I've only had the one 22 and intend to never have another one. Lemon, yeah, that's a good simple description. I see it comes in black matte now. Bet that will solve all the problems. :lol:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

volkl said:


> It may be tough to accept the objectivity of one who paid the lease fee for 9 HR receivers, over a long period of time, as you say, so that means you liked them enough even before they improved so dramatically. But, I did not mean to call you a fan boy, and while it may be tough to accept, you may indeed be very objective. I apologize. I am not looking to argue.


OK, I can understand how people are taken aback by my having so many HRs. I did not pay for all of them. I've gotten credits for HRs I've bought at retail stores and I've gotten three (I think) for no charge. So, I haven't really spent that much on the HRs. I've also gotten a couple for $99. I'm eligible for one right now at $99, but I don't know what I'd do with it. It is difficult to have an argument on the forum without one or the other of the combatants going completely berserk, isn't it? This one seems to have resolved itself peacefully.



> As for my statement that D* needs to improve more being subjective ----- ok. There is no argument, D* has indeed come a long long way ---- and, I might add, over a long long time. But it is still a long way to Tipperary, in my subjective opinion.


It's a lot better than having twelve VCRs running constantly and keeping logs and changing tapes at all hours of the day and night. I couldn't believe the DVRs when I first found them. Yeah, they have bugs and the service is pretty bad, but all things considered, I'd rather have a DVR than a VCR.



> It would be preferable, if they gave higher priority to stability (meaning dvr functionality), then secondly go for the whiz bang features (such as TV Apps, etc.) They seem to be in a rush to add features without giving sufficient emphasis to key functions. The fact that it has taken this long to get to where we are, especially in comparison to Tivo software, which is frustrating and this underscores their apparent lack of devotion of resources and talent to develop a good receiver without subjecting subscribers to national release versions which are essentially still beta versions, in my opinion.


You are right on the button with the above statement. A lot of us have been saying the same thing for a long time. No one listens. I stopped comparing the HRs to TiVos for the most part. Occasionally I still do, but now the TiVos get the negative opinion. I just like the HRs. As long as they don't end in 100.

Apparently, D* has a business model in place that demands bells and whistles without fixing major problems. That seems obvious. I think it's wrong, but nobody at D* seems to.



> And why do they do updates (or usually emergency updates) during prime time television? Perhaps it is because they are developing for too many receiver types?


I've only seen that once. And it happened so fast right after a previous NR that I think they screwed up the first NR and had to fix it quickly. Forgiveable.



> Lastly, I am sick of the Brippps. And I know it is not exclusive to D*, but hey, I wish THEY would be the first to either fix it, or reveal the actual source of the problem. Then again, they may not even know either.


Can D* fix it? I've got no other source for TV and I don't know if it is prevalent on other platforms too. I guess it is and if that's true, can we blame D* for it?

Rich


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

kcmurphy88 said:


> The HR10-250 only adds channels to CIG when they "change". Some stations flip the change flag on daily. And on the HR10-250 CIG is SET BY THE USER. Big difference, as you probably won't fill it up with Spanish language.


Funny then that whenever I'd check the CIG on the HR10-250 I'd find PPV, Shopping, Religious, and Sports package channels checked that I never added. I use edited Guides, HD only of channels in my package, on both the HR20 and HR21 and I've never seen channels added that I didn't select when I set them up.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

And that's the problem, you say that now but in other posts you make it seem like it's all just an issue of getting a better firmware update!

The poor guy with an HR22 keeps waiting for an update fix that from all indications will never happen because there are problems with the HR22 from a hardware standpoint. Thats based purely on the fact that Both Older and Newer models have all been "fixed" but the HR22 is still a Slug.

Disclaimer
Fixed = works well enough that you don't slit your wrists in frustration.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> No one disputed problems with the HR22.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dreadlk said:


> And that's the problem, you say that now but in other posts you make it seem like it's all just an issue of getting a better firmware update!
> 
> The poor guy with an HR22 keeps waiting for an update fix that from all indications will never happen because there are problems with the HR22 from a hardware standpoint. Thats based purely on the fact that Both Older and Newer models have all been "fixed" but the HR22 is still a Slug.
> 
> ...


From speaking yesterday with 2 other owners of the HR22....their take was different. While the guide is indeed slow, and the units also have some issues that have already reported...they did not feel as passionate that the HR22 is that big a problem. In fact, they each stated (separately), that they generally were satisfied, but knew that some needed improvements were coming.

Perhaps it would be prudent to see the next updated firmware (yes there will be one) before going overboard with assessments. The reported problems, by the way, are all firmware related.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

rich584 said:


> _And why do they do updates (or usually emergency updates) during prime time television? Perhaps it is because they are developing for too many receiver types?_
> 
> I've only seen that once. And it happened so fast right after a previous NR that I think they screwed up the first NR and had to fix it quickly. Forgiveable.


Forgiveable if you're head over heels in love! I guess you're also forgiving whatever original screwup that might have occurred. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

I've got a HR20-700, HR21-100, HR22-100 and HR23-700 and can agree with most that the HR20's GUI's speed is better then the other model boxes. I'll also agree that the performance problems with those boxes have been on going for a long time but to the point of saying they're a POS and moving onto another provider, nope, not that bad. From posts that I've seen, DirecTV knows that this has been a problem and hopefully with the current cycle of testing happening in the CE process DirecTV will finally address some of these concerns. 

Yes, sometimes you want to smack the box across the side but thankfully I don't sit there and play with the GUI all day long, I watch programming. And all four HD DVR's that I have record all the shows that I've schedule them to record, based on priorities, and I've been able to play them back without any problems. So except for the performance issue I've been happy with the HR2X's, and all the new features that they keep adding to them.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Forgiveable if you're head over heels in love! I guess you're also forgiving whatever original screwup that might have occurred. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


And your suggestion is what?

Rich


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Suggestion? You mean for you? It's not my place, but if it were, I might suggest that you resume your complaining, as if it were still the bad old days when almost nothing worked in D*'s HD recorder. Because to me it seems pretty bad right now.

To D*, I might suggest that they concentrate on fixing bugs, because adding features that few if any users want while ignoring problems that affect many users is really insulting to those users.

D* might also consider letting us in on what they're planning for this unloveable box, and telling us exactly what they've fixed already (instead of the vague "UI improvements" or "increased stability"). They're treating us like the proverbial mushrooms: Keep us in the dark and feed us you-know-what.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Syzygy said:


> Forgiveable if you're head over heels in love! I guess you're also forgiving whatever original screwup that might have occurred. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)


Current issues not withstanding .. If the "original screwup" were no longer a problem why wouldn't you forgive it :shrug:


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

Because, Doug, I'm not in love with DirecTV.

(That was just toooo easy. Thanks for the softball, Doug.)


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Syzygy said:


> Suggestion? You mean for you? It's not my place, but if it were, I might suggest that you resume your complaining, as if it were still the bad old days when almost nothing worked in D*'s HD recorder. Because to me it seems pretty bad right now.


No, I didn't mean me. I meant D*. They obviously made a mistake and fixed it. Must have been an extremely bad mistake for them to do what they did.



> To D*, I might suggest that they concentrate on fixing bugs, because adding features that few if any users want while ignoring problems that affect many users is really insulting to those users.


We've had many comments such as yours. I've said the same thing. Doesn't do a bit of good.

They must have some kind of a grand plan. They can't be doing this randomly. I just hope we end up with usable HRs.

From a purely personal point of view, all my HRs (except for the 23 with an RF sensor problem) are working as well as can be expected. I have no issue with slowness or lost recordings or slip to the end (did have that problem with a 22, but got rid of it) or anything else. Just the thought of a major NR is terrifying.

Rich


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm truly happy for you that your HR's are "working as well as can be expected." The slowness of *my *HR21's response, which has gotten much worse lately, is really chafing at me. There's no joy anymore in being the one with the remote. (Sorry to be beating a _dead horse _-- which, come to think of it, describes the HR2x series in my eyes.)


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Just out of curiosity - what 'features' are there on the HR2X series that don't exist on the Dish 622 or 722?

Maybe DirecTV engineering should make a list....

There doesn't seem to be much of an advantage with HR2X series. Maybe there is something I don't use?

For me the big advantages of the 622/722 are:

#1 SPEED - the 622 recording 3 HD programs while watching a 4th HD program is night and day faster than an HR22 tuned to a music channel and recording nothing. The 722 is even faster. Damn!

#2 Can simultaneously record 2 satellite channels and 1 OTA for the 622 or 2 OTA for the 722 That would be 4 HD streams at once.... And still responds to the remote lightning fast.

#3 Can use RF and IR remote at the same time! Who was the idiot at DirecTV that thought of making it one or the other? I had to give up my sling box just so I could use my HR22 in RF mode. Talk about firing the engineers!

#4 Lockups, missed recordings etc. I had more trouble with having to reboot my HR22 and missed recordings in first month than I did in 2+ years of using the 622. 

#5 External Drive usage. Why can't DirecTV make the external drive EXTRA storage rather than replacing the internal drive? Seems like they have hard time with the 'big' picture - why would they do this? Too difficult for their engineers? From what others have posted here it looks like even if you use their 'suggested' external drives it doesn't always work.....

#6 Run a 2nd standard def TV from the same box - some people would have more use than others. In my case I had to go from 2 boxes running 3 tvs to 3 boxes running 3 tvs with DirecTV. Again - more valuable to some than others but still a pretty good idea!

Advantages of the HR2X series that I know of:

#1 the SWM setup - it is pretty cool to be able to use a single wire from the dish to 8 tuners.

#2 The promise of some day having MRV. Maybe sometime in the next 10 years..... Cool idea but reliable implementation and a cool idea are a long ways apart. This was one of the reasons I switched to DirecTV but it seems a long way off. 

#3 The promise of Tivo someday... This has been a big disappointment for me. Originally DirecTV was going to have an HD Tivo this summer but now it looks like another year away. With my luck it will be another two years.... With any luck Tivo will come out owning a big chunk of Dish Network (you know Dish Network's legal trouble). Maybe Dish Network will have Tivo box before DirecTV?

Not trying to be a smartass (ok, maybe a little) but from the lists above maybe the DirecTV engineers should be fired!

The more I think about it - maybe I should just give up Sunday Ticket along with my DirecTV investment and go back to Dish. If only I could subscribe just to the Sunday Ticket! I guess someone at DirecTV knows what they're doing!


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## bdcottle (Mar 28, 2008)

Maybe the person in charge of the HR software is someone they can’t fire. Perhaps related to the CEO? Or owns too much stock? Can’t think of any other reason they would keep someone who can’t fix CIG in 3 years. Or maybe they paid so much for a flawed software program (database or GUI) that that can’t let it go.

Ok, maybe I should take off the tinfoil cap.

If I were a Dirrectv software engineer, I would be really embarrassed that dish was able to create a more stable and usable DVR than direct considering that direct has been paying for Tivo IP and dish has not. I think that is what makes me angry the most is that I know direct can do better, a lot better.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Mike Greer said:


> Just out of curiosity - what 'features' are there on the HR2X series that don't exist on the Dish 622 or 722?
> 
> Maybe DirecTV engineering should make a list....!


Maybe D* should have stayed with TIVO instead of re-inventing the wheel or should I say the DVR! If I had any appliance that performed as poorly as the HR2x series, I would junk it.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> Just out of curiosity - what 'features' are there on the HR2X series that don't exist on the Dish 622 or 722?
> 
> Maybe DirecTV engineering should make a list....
> 
> ...





bdcottle said:


> Maybe the person in charge of the HR software is someone they can't fire. Perhaps related to the CEO? Or owns too much stock? Can't think of any other reason they would keep someone who can't fix CIG in 3 years. Or maybe they paid so much for a flawed software program (database or GUI) that that can't let it go.
> 
> Ok, maybe I should take off the tinfoil cap.
> 
> If I were a Dirrectv software engineer, I would be really embarrassed that dish was able to create a more stable and usable DVR than direct considering that direct has been paying for Tivo IP and dish has not. I think that is what makes me angry the most is that I know direct can do better, a lot better.





allenn said:


> Maybe D* should have stayed with TIVO instead of re-inventing the wheel or should I say the DVR! If I had any appliance that performed as poorly as the HR2x series, I would junk it.


With all this animosity, why don't some people just bite the bullet, pay the ETF and go back to Dish or Cable? * It's TV, guys and girls* -- it's not rocket science or brain surgery. If you change channels 30 times a day, it's about a 30 second difference per day. Folks -- that's 3 hours a YEAR. 3 hours max out of 8,760 hours a year...

I just don't understand... it's TV, and millions of people are using HR's that don't even know this forum exists, and quite frankly, they're happy, or D*'s subscriber base wouldn't be growing the way that it is.

Not trying to be a fanboy... just trying to understand.

Time to put things into perspective. Use the extra 30 seconds to say something nice to your significant other or kids -- use the extra 30 second a day while you wait to figure out how to do something that helps others....


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> Just out of curiosity - what 'features' are there on the HR2X series that don't exist on the Dish 622 or 722?


Folks .. again, this thread is not a comparison of DISH and DIRECTV. That conversation should be taken to another thread.

:backtotop please.

Thank You.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bdcottle said:


> Perhaps related to the CEO?


The DIRECTV CEO left the company, so that's probably not it (unless the acting CEO, Larry Hunter, is a relative too ).


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MartyS said:


> With all this animosity, why don't some people just bite the bullet, pay the ETF and go back to Dish or Cable? * It's TV, guys and girls* -- it's not rocket science or brain surgery. If you change channels 30 times a day, it's about a 30 second difference per day. Folks -- that's 3 hours a YEAR. 3 hours max out of 8,760 hours a year...
> 
> I just don't understand... it's TV, and millions of people are using HR's that don't even know this forum exists, and quite frankly, they're happy, or D*'s subscriber base wouldn't be growing the way that it is.
> 
> ...


Strange how this thread has degenerated into a comparison of Dish and D*. Pretty worthless information to someone who has never had Dish and without the Yes Network would never consider it, never mind the almost mind blowing price (over $2700) to duplicate the setup that I have.

I paid less than $1000 for my setup, way less. Does Dish ever admit that you've been treated poorly and just give you an HD DVR? Does Dish ever go to rather unbelievable extremes to fix your system (at no charge)?

I was treated a whole lot worse when all D* had was TiVos. Since the advent of the HRs (and a rocky advent it was), it's only taken them 3 years to stabilize their equipment. That's not bad.

Rich


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Last chance guys .. This is *NOT* a Dish v. DIRECTV thread .. I will be deleting posts of that nature from this point forward ..


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

allenn said:


> Maybe D* should have stayed with TIVO instead of re-inventing the wheel or should I say the DVR!


Here, here! But that is what happens when an egomaniac takes over the company.

I am surprised this thread is still going actually. I'm actually thinking I will be happier with my HR22 eventually. But I still stand by my statements many times here. When the TiVo based receiver comes out, my HR22 is going the route of the Dodo bird.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

Isn't some Dish vs DirecTV legit? After all, they are both satellite TV, they are both DVRs, and they are competitors. If one can go faster, isn't it a legit question why the other is slower? 

A good corollary I think would be Apple vs Dell. Both use the same hardware but some would say an Apple running OSX is faster and more reliable than a Dell running Vista. Isn't that the same as saying the top tier Dish DVR is faster than the top tier DirecTV DVR?

But I digress. Doug, delete this if you must, I haven't had coffee yet so that's my excuse.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Everything I have posted in this or other threads regarding the poor performing HRx series of DVR's has been said to D*. I have been a subscriber since 1992. I have seen a lot of failures a long the way, but overall, I think the whole is better than some of its parts (meaning the current line of DVR's). This to shall pass, and I will be one of the first in line for the new TIVO model should it arrive. Thanks DBSTALK for providing a forum where we may speak our opinion.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

I wonder if folks that can't wait for a DirecTV HD Tivo unit forgot to take their rose colored glasses off? I had a HR10-250 and if you're thinking the Tivo will be faster then the HR2X's I wonder why you think that, the HR10-250 was a dog on performance, did you ever change the priorities on recordings, you could take a nice nap while the box resorted things for example. And just because the standalone Tivo's have this and that feature remember DirecTV disabled a number of those features on their version of the box so what's to say they won't do the same thing this time?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

MartyS said:


> I just don't understand... it's TV, and millions of people are using HR's that don't even know this forum exists, and quite frankly, they're happy, or D*'s subscriber base wouldn't be growing the way that it is.


The new subscribers likely have little idea what the HD Plus DVR can or cannot do. They are instead swayed by the numerous (and sometimes false) claims that "DIRECTV is #1". Once they sign up, low churn is insured by the forbidding $20/month ETF. This is how the customer base grows at a rate higher than desired.

All the hype aside, when they do settle down to use the equipment, they all come with a few expectations of what having an HD DVR should represent. You can only go for so long on the "at least is isn't as bad as Brand CableCo's DVRs" or "you should have seen it when it was first released".

You say that it is just TV, but when you pay as much for it as you do for air conditioning each year, you expect to get some comfort out of it.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> Here, here! But that is what happens when an egomaniac takes over the company.
> 
> I am surprised this thread is still going actually. I'm actually thinking I will be happier with my HR22 eventually. But I still stand by my statements many times here. When the TiVo based receiver comes out, my HR22 is going the route of the Dodo bird.


To judge all the HRs by the 22s is wrong. I've only had one and that was only briefly, but it wasn't that bad, just had one monstrous bug that I couldn't put up with.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

RAD said:


> I wonder if folks that can't wait for a DirecTV HD Tivo unit forgot to take their rose colored glasses off? I had a HR10-250 and if you're thinking the Tivo will be faster then the HR2X's I wonder why you think that, the HR10-250 was a dog on performance, did you ever change the priorities on recordings, you could take a nice nap while the box resorted things for example. And just because the standalone Tivo's have this and that feature remember DirecTV disabled a number of those features on their version of the box so what's to say they won't do the same thing this time?


You forgot to mention the constant random reboots of the TiVos that nobody, least of all TiVo, took responsibility for.

Rich


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> To judge all the HRs by the 22s is wrong.


I would agree with that. It's the only one I have so I have nothing to compare it to. I compare it to what others have. A buddy's Motorola DVR from Comcast, a friend's H23, those are how I judge what mine acts like. Unfair, probably. In real life, legit.

From everything I have read there is no guaranteed way to get a 23 without dropping hard earned money on it. I'd gladly test a 23 if anyone wants to loan it to me or can convince D* to "give" me one for S&H.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

MartyS said:


> I just don't understand... it's TV, and millions of people are using HR's that don't even know this forum exists, and quite frankly, they're happy, or D*'s subscriber base wouldn't be growing the way that it is.


Unless you're talked to each and every one of them, how do you know if they're happy or not?

Look at the ones who have sought out this forum: a lot of complainers but practically none of us are ditching our equipment. Without seeing the opinions expressed here, the fact that we all hang on to what we've got would suggest we're happy, when in fact we're not necessarily so.

I'd stake my reputation (ha) that the people who're signing up as new customers and jumping on the DVR bandwagon are probably appalled at how slow the equipment runs, but the joy of unhooking from the TV schedule outweighs the frustrations for the average user.

I gotta say one thing, though: unlike some of the other posters, I've lost maybe 3 recordings in 3 years to buggy software, a percentage I can live with. And reboots are rare since the last NR.

BUT. Taking 3+ years to iron out basic bugs is pretty lame, no other way to put it. Even Microsoft figures things out quicker than that_!_

I know you guys think the DVRs are rocket science, but they're not. It doesn't take a whole heck of a lot to power them - I know of two people who built their own Linux DVR boxes out of spare computer parts - but somewhere in the chain DirecTV goofed, either in not getting robust enough hardware or by bad coding.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

RAD said:


> I wonder if folks that can't wait for a DirecTV HD Tivo unit forgot to take their rose colored glasses off?


I think those who are romancing memories have chosen to assume that with the application of enough time and higher performance hardware, improvements can and will be made. Until the 21st century, it was expected that time and technology would always bring improvement. Microsoft launched the first volley against that ideal with Windows Vista.

Those who lust for the features and performance of perceived greener pastures are probably following "what could have been" pretty closely and if the familiarity isn't dissuading them from their lusting, there must be something to it.

As a service provider you can choose three paths: status quo, continual improvement or distraction. Consider for yourself how you would label DIRECTV's handling of HR2x development.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

harsh said:


> Until the 21st century, it was expected that time and technology would always bring improvement. Microsoft launched the first volley against that ideal with Windows Vista.
> 
> As a service provider you can choose three paths: status quo, continual improvement or distraction. Consider for yourself how you would label DIRECTV's handling of HR2x development.


Some would argue that Microsoft launched the first volley in the 20th century with the release of Windows ME. Just sayin'. I think WinME is still considered the worst version of Windows EVAR!

In talking about HR development, it cannot be forgotten that D* eliminated DLB and limited SL's. The elimination of DLB conceivably made it less than just about every other DVR. Even my buddy's Comcast DVR has DLB. But that's not an option for me. I don't like their service compared to D*. The SL limit, while not an issue for me, is an issue or becoming an issue for others. The only way that will improve is if they get rid of the limit or implement MRV someday. I understand DLB is coming and that will make my experience better.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Tallgntlmn said:


> Some would argue that Microsoft launched the first volley in the 20th century with the release of Windows ME. Just sayin'. I think WinME is still considered the worst version of Windows EVAR!
> 
> In talking about HR development, it cannot be forgotten that D* eliminated DLB and limited SL's. *The elimination of DLB conceivably made it less than just about every other DVR.* Even my buddy's Comcast DVR has DLB. But that's not an option for me. I don't like their service compared to D*. The SL limit, while not an issue for me, is an issue or becoming an issue for others. The only way that will improve is if they get rid of the limit or implement MRV someday. I understand DLB is coming and that will make my experience better.


Even Apple can be accused of putting out a very cool product, the iphone, that did not have some very basic functions that even the cheapest cell phones had, and still lacks some of those functions. 
It happens with every company. Sometimes "catchup" is the name of the game.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

BubblePuppy said:


> It happens with every company. Sometimes "catchup" is the name of the game.


Outside of possibly the Apple ][ and the iPod, Apple has always been playing catch up. Should this be something that all companies should aspire to?

On the other hand, Apple got where they are by doing what they do mostly right and to a large extent, eschewing the distraction technique of "creeping featuritis" that plagues many other companies. They concentrate on thoughtfully addressing their customers basic needs as opposed to splashing in a little of everything in and hoping someone finds utility.

See if the commentary on this site doesn't seem strangely familiar: http://www.interaction-design.org/encyclopedia/featuritis_and_creeping_featurism.html

In some cases, the "power users" mentioned in the above article are those who like to test things and push out the corners. Is this the market that the software engineers should be pandering to? Each must judge for themselves whether the "engineering staff" at DIRECTV is doing right by them. For the earnest DVR users (as opposed to the hackers and tinkers), the answer doesn't seem to be a resounding yes.


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

BubblePuppy said:


> Even Apple can be accused of putting out a very cool product, the iphone, that did not have some very basic functions that even the cheapest cell phones had, and still lacks some of those functions.


Very true. Like turning the keyboard with the phone, MMS, video camera, and stereo bluetooth.

DirecTV is going to allegedly be putting DLB in an impending NR. Now if they match speed with that, they will have done a lot to make the HR series better.

Before you pointed that out with the iPhone, I was strictly comparing Mac to Wintel which I think would be akin to Dish vs DirecTV.



harsh said:


> Outside of possibly the Apple ][ and the iPod, Apple has always been playing catch up. Should this be something that all companies should aspire to?


I would postulate that the Macintosh since it went to Intel processors is a superior machine to a Wintel. It can also be said that Apple did things right with the iPod because they didn't pander to the RIAA and their DRM desires. At one point the iPod was one of the only players that would play the most common files. WMA was about the only format it didn't play.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

While I would hate to see this thread turn into E* vs D* I have to agree!
It does beg a comparison that the engineers at E* can make a better DVR while tackling an ever watching Tivo and D* with Tivo help cannot do better.

I have a very strong feeling that the problems with the HR2X come down to only two possible reasons, the Software guys do need firing or the Hardware is just crap. I personaly lean towards the latter because I figure D* would have fired the engineers by now if it was there fault.



Tallgntlmn said:


> Isn't some Dish vs DirecTV legit? After all, they are both satellite TV, they are both DVRs, and they are competitors. If one can go faster, isn't it a legit question why the other is slower?
> 
> -Snip


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Agree 100% with your statements.

The box is not a POS for 99% of us, that 1% that is having so many problems that they label it that way should try and get there install checked out, because you are having problems that most people are not having.

The firmware update bugs and issues have gotten much much better, (I still remember the LipSync days ) but it has taken way too long and they still have some bugs left and the speed issue seems to indicate that the Hardware is maxed out! Lord knows they should not even attempt to deliver DLB to the Public until they iron out the other problems, I for one am not interested in the least at DLB if it comes at the expense of missed recordings and reboots.

And while I think much of the complaining in this thread is a bit excessive, I would say that some of the people are bringing up Valid points that should be addresed.

Somebody made a comment that Directv should post exactly what bugs they fixed and release more details. I am pretty sure the Mods on this forum get much more detailed reports than the CE testers. It amazes me that such a group of people would Beta test for free and not demand that for there efforts they at least have access to better information as to what is happening! Even lowly microsoft releases detailed bug fix reports.



RAD said:


> I've got a HR20-700, HR21-100, HR22-100 and HR23-700 and can agree with most that the HR20's GUI's speed is better then the other model boxes. I'll also agree that the performance problems with those boxes have been on going for a long time but to the point of saying they're a POS and moving onto another provider, nope, not that bad. From posts that I've seen, DirecTV knows that this has been a problem and hopefully with the current cycle of testing happening in the CE process DirecTV will finally address some of these concerns.
> 
> Yes, sometimes you want to smack the box across the side but thankfully I don't sit there and play with the GUI all day long, I watch programming. And all four HD DVR's that I have record all the shows that I've schedule them to record, based on priorities, and I've been able to play them back without any problems. So except for the performance issue I've been happy with the HR2X's, and all the new features that they keep adding to them.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

Being a customer of E* D* TWC, Comcrap and Comcrap with a Series 3 TiVO, I have to say yeah the Slowness is beyond annoying but still better than dealing with Cable, It's gotta be the hardware. TiVO really did a great job with the series 3, but still the ViP 622 and up are heads and shoulders above waht we have. It's tough to polish a turd, even if that turd has a 500GB HDD included. I am happy to be back with D* but would prefer FiOS and Dish in that order.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Even lowly microsoft releases detailed bug fix reports.


Different situation .. As new NR, come out, BTW there is typically a splash screen with information on what has changed.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Lord knows they should not even attempt to deliver DLB to the Public until they iron out the other problems, I for one am not interested in the least at DLB if it comes at the expense of missed recordings and reboots.


What if you could have DLB, better performance and more reliability all rolled up in a nice new firmware?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> What if you could have DLB, better performance and more reliability all rolled up in a nice new firmware?


What if the tooth fairy comes tonight?

With the past updates that made things worse, why should I expect the next great one to be any better? The track record of D* with updates isn't so hot right now. The length and vitriol in this very thread shows that quite well.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

lparsons21 said:


> What if the tooth fairy comes tonight?
> 
> With the past updates that made things worse, why should I expect the next great one to be any better? The track record of D* with updates isn't so hot right now. The length and vitriol in this very thread shows that quite well.


 yep, we got what? a dozen upset people?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

houskamp said:


> yep, we got what? a dozen upset people?


I think, hell I know, that there are a heck of a lot more than a dozen. I have quite a few friends here locally that have D*'s HDDVRs and are not happy about they way they work. But they don't post online and I don't think any of them are even aware this site exists.

They stick with D* because :
1. ETF is more than they are willing to pay to change
2. Don't want yet some more junk on the roof
or 
3. Don't really watch much TV to make the shortcomings enough of an irritant.

I'm now a dual user. I've got D* w/Family plan, HD and DVR service. That's because E* doesn't yet have the local in HD and OTA is only good for a couple of the channels without spending a whole lot of money. And the T101 channel.

The bulk of my watching is on my newly installed E* with 722k HDDVR and the difference in operation is night and day.

For me, it isn't the money it is the performance that made me make the changes I just did.

But you are free to believe that it is a very tiny minority that is dissatisfied with the HRs. I also don't believe in the tooth fairy, santa claus or other fables...


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## mjbvideo (Jan 15, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> What if you could have DLB, better performance and more reliability all rolled up in a nice new firmware?


That would be great but from my perspective their track record hasn't exactly been stellar with the NR's. What new bugs will annoy us after the NR - and how many months will we wait to have them fixed? Then they'll introduce another feature that'll produce more bugs and maybe even bring back old bugs.

My sampling of friends and family with the HRxx DVR's show that 2 out of 3 experience similar frustrations as those expressed in this forum. Some have no issues at all or they don't perceive them as issues. All I know is my old HR10-250 that is still running in the basement is much faster and more responsive than my HR. Some people like "New Coke" more than "Classic Coke"...."Star Trek The Next Generation" more than "Classic Star Trek". I was spoiled by the "Classic DVR" and can hardly wait for the J.J. Abrams version of Directv Tivo to beam into my living room next year. Call me a fanboy all you want but my personal experience on BASIC DVR features - HR's are not there YET. I keep waiting for the NR that'll bring it up-to-speed on the BASIC operation but it has disappointed me with every release since late last year.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> I think, hell I know, that there are a heck of a lot more than a dozen. I have quite a few friends here locally that have D*'s HDDVRs and are not happy about they way they work. But they don't post online and I don't think any of them are even aware this site exists.
> 
> They stick with D* because :
> 1. ETF is more than they are willing to pay to change
> ...


You're saying that over a million people have DirecTV DVRs because they're forced to (under contract), inertia, or they don't use them enough to care? !rolling


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> You're saying that over a million people have DirecTV DVRs because they're forced to (under contract), inertia, or they don't use them enough to care? !rolling


I'd say it's because they don't know any better. And not knowing how others perform, they can't compare so they have no idea it is slow. To them it is "normal" and they're fine with it. 


Doug Brott said:


> What if you could have DLB, better performance and more reliability all rolled up in a nice new firmware?


I don't believe that is a question. I think you're making a statement there, Doug.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

mjbvideo said:


> That would be great but from my perspective their track record hasn't exactly been stellar with the NR's. What new bugs will annoy us after the NR - and how many months will we wait to have them fixed? Then they'll introduce another feature that'll produce more bugs and maybe even bring back old bugs.
> 
> My sampling of friends and family with the HRxx DVR's show that 2 out of 3 experience similar frustrations as those expressed in this forum. Some have no issues at all or they don't perceive them as issues. All I know is my old HR10-250 that is still running in the basement is much faster and more responsive than my HR. Some people like "New Coke" more than "Classic Coke"...."Star Trek The Next Generation" more than "Classic Star Trek". I was spoiled by the "Classic DVR" and can hardly wait for the J.J. Abrams version of Directv Tivo to beam into my living room next year. Call me a fanboy all you want but my personal experience on BASIC DVR features - HR's are not there YET. I keep waiting for the NR that'll bring it up-to-speed on the BASIC operation but it has disappointed me with every release since late last year.


What are your expected basic operation? Here's an idea of mine:

-Record content I tell it to...check
-Change channels...check
-Tell me what's on TV...check
-Allow me to watch TV...check

I think the HR20 I've used for a few years has done everything I asked of it. The only issue I've had are bad BBCs.

I also don't miss Tivo & think it's funny that so many people think that Tivo will be their savior to issues. I've had more Tivo units fail than HRs. The Tivo is/was slow as hell on some menus. IMO, Tivo is and forever be just a cheesy GUI with bells & whistles.


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

tcusta00 said:


> You're saying that over a million people have DirecTV DVRs because they're forced to (under contract), inertia, or they don't use them enough to care? !rolling


I wouldn't be surprised if it applies to a decent sized portion of them not to mention those who put up with it since they can't get Sunday Ticket anywhere else. I would put it up there with people who use Ipods but hate using Itunes especially those on Window PCs.

I would say a portion of the people I work with have only DVRs now instead of a regular STBs. They record maybe a handful of shows and at the same time if they miss a show they aren't worried about since they are still getting used to being able to record any show they want. It probably doesn't hurt that they started out with a DVR that they can't rely on, IE most cable company DVRs.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

MartyS said:


> With all this animosity, why don't some people just bite the bullet, pay the ETF and go back to Dish or Cable? * It's TV, guys and girls* -- it's not rocket science or brain surgery. If you change channels 30 times a day, it's about a 30 second difference per day. Folks -- that's 3 hours a YEAR. 3 hours max out of 8,760 hours a year...
> 
> Time to put things into perspective. Use the extra 30 seconds to say something nice to your significant other or kids -- use the extra 30 second a day while you wait to figure out how to do something that helps others....


It is just TV - it's not like it is life or death. I did my part by paying now I expect them to do their part. Simple as that.

Bottom line is I have paid a large chunk of change to DirecTV, I can't get Sunday Ticket elsewhere and the ETF.

If 'most' people think that the HR22 is 'fine' I'll will give up and go back to Dish - my hope is that the only people happy with the pathetic HR22 are the fan boys that are much more happy playing fan boy than having admit their HR22 is crap.

My grief has nothing to do with how long it takes to change channels - although that is also pathetic... My pain comes from just trying to pick something from the guide or starting a recording. I can't even FF through anything because by the time the POS responds to the remote it is an additional 30 or 40 seconds past when I hit 'play'. I can't tell you home many times I have been scrolling down my list of recordings and stop on the one I want and hit select - only to have the thing catch up and scroll down 2 or 3 more recordings and start playing the wrong one.

Bag all the bells and whistles... Just make the basic functions like scrolling through the guide and menus work.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Folks .. again, this thread is not a comparison of DISH and DIRECTV. That conversation should be taken to another thread.
> 
> :backtotop please.
> 
> Thank You.


Sorry - didn't mean to cause any trouble. I think it is worthwhile to compare HD DVRs but I will take it to another thread.

I do, however, think that DirecTV should pay attention to the competition - or the title of this thread should apply!


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> You're saying that over a million people have DirecTV DVRs because they're forced to (under contract), inertia, or they don't use them enough to care? !rolling


Is that over a million HDDVRs or just DVRs in total?

Assuming that it is HDDVRs, a million represents about 5.6% of their subscriber base, which is a pretty low penetration rate.

Add to my other comments, some don't change 'cause they don't even know there is something better.

And never discount inertia. People in general are not prone to changes they don't have to make.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> What are your expected basic operation? Here's an idea of mine:
> 
> -Record content I tell it to...check
> -Change channels...check
> ...


Your selections are fine for basic operation, but I would add/modify a few.

-Record content - yep, that always worked for me 
-Change channels - yes, eventually and sometimes even to the right channel if it actually responded to the remote properly, which is not a given. 
-Tell me what's on TV - yep, that worked fine too when it responded to the remote asking for that info. Sometimes it did it right quickly, often it could take 4 or 5 seconds or more to bring up the guide.
-Allow me to watch TV. - Well, yeah! But then so does my TV with rabbit ears! 
-skip ads - Yes, sometimes it even just did one 30-second skip/slip, but way too often it decided I didn't need to finish watching the show/game so it went clear to the end. 

If the HR20s I had worked right, I would have loved to have kept one. But I went through 3 or 4 for the 771 error on Tuner 2 and they finally put a HR21 in my house. Little did I know how bad the 21 was compared to the 20.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

After seeing complaints of the remote commands not responding, I wonder if the remote may be at fault. I use a Harmony 880 and never experience issues with it. We could probably make a poll to see some results.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

I was very skeptical of the HR series when I was thinking of signing up with D*, because of what I read in more then one forum. Overall, I'm happy with everything but the slow response to commands and a reset usually helps. I had TW cables Motorola DVR and it would do the same thing, until I would reboot it. As sigma1914 stated, it does the main things I need it to do.

Now on the comment below about the engineers at E* being so great. I though I read that all they did was steal all the technology from Tivo. Thats why Tivo is suing them,correct? So they didn't have to engineer anything.



dreadlk said:


> While I would hate to see this thread turn into E* vs D* I have to agree!
> It does beg a comparison that the engineers at E* can make a better DVR while tackling an ever watching Tivo and D* with Tivo help cannot do better.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

RACJ2 said:


> I was very skeptical of the HR series when I was thinking of signing up with D*, because of what I read in more then one forum. Overall, I'm happy with everything but the slow response to commands and a reset usually helps. I had TW cables Motorola DVR and it would do the same thing, until I would reboot it. As sigma1914 stated, it does the main things I need it to do.
> 
> Now on the comment below about the engineers at E* being so great. I though I read that all they did was steal all the technology from Tivo. Thats why Tivo is suing them,correct? So they didn't have to engineer anything.


Sounds reasonable - if you had moved from a Dish Network DVR you would know how quick a DVR should be and would be less... "happy"?

Dish Network's engineers have had their troubles in the past - It is just that with the HR2x series the troubles don't seem to be getting better - with the exception of when the HR20 first came out and just didn't work as advertised. My HR22s are slower now than when I first had them installed.

As far as law suits go - everyone stole from Tivo (if you subscribe to the theory that Tivo intended the DVR). The difference is that Dish decided to fight rather than pay up. In time they'll know if it was worth it... I doubt it... But at any rate - DirecTV stole the same thing but paid up!


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Mike Greer said:


> Sounds reasonable - if you had moved from a Dish Network DVR you would know how quick a DVR should be and would be less... "happy"?


Your probably right, since you always compare things to something you are familiar with. My sister has Dish and when I tried her receivers they were much more responsive, but she doesn't have a DVR.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> I would agree with that. It's the only one I have so I have nothing to compare it to. I compare it to what others have. A buddy's Motorola DVR from Comcast, a friend's H23, those are how I judge what mine acts like. Unfair, probably. In real life, legit.


That is kinda unfair, you're right. I went from cable to D* in '02 because of a dispute about the Yes Channel. One of the first things I noticed was how much longer everything took. And that was with bare receivers vs bare receivers. When I got my first DVR, an Ultimate TV unit, I noticed even more slowness. In both cases it wasn't enough to be troubled by. The Ultimate DVRs were typical Microsoft products. They crashed a lot. Aside from that, I liked them. Then came the TiVo and that was about as fast as the Ultimate DVR. I could see a real difference when I got my first HR, but I attributed that to it being an HD DVR. And I learned over the years which HRs were dependable and which weren't. Your's is in the latter category. Anything that ends in 100 is in that category.

Compare it to a 20-700. You can buy one on eBay at a very reasonable price. And you can buy an "owned" one. I've led a couple members thru the whole process with positive results. That still leaves you stuck with the 22.



> From everything I have read there is no guaranteed way to get a 23 without dropping hard earned money on it. I'd gladly test a 23 if anyone wants to loan it to me or can convince D* to "give" me one for S&H.


Well, you haven't read everything. I got a 23, that was guaranteed to be a 23, to replace a 22. Didn't cost me a dime (yes, I belong to the PP and pay whatever the monthly cost is, so it wasn't without charge.)

Also, I wouldn't be to quick to jump for the 23. I've had problems with mine that I don't think are software related. My 23 won't work correctly with the remote in the RF mode. I've got it in the IR mode and it works just like a 21-700, which, I think, is the second best HR. Third best? Dunno.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

harsh said:


> I think those who are romancing memories have chosen to assume that with the application of enough time and higher performance hardware, improvements can and will be made. Until the 21st century, it was expected that time and technology would always bring improvement. Microsoft launched the first volley against that ideal with Windows Vista.


What's the matter with Vista? I've used every Windows OS since they started calling them Windows. I think Vista is the closest thing to a Mac OS that Windows has ever come out with.



> As a service provider you can choose three paths: status quo, continual improvement or distraction. Consider for yourself how you would label DIRECTV's handling of HR2x development.


I wonder if they have a master plan? Seriously.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> Unless you're talked to each and every one of them, how do you know if they're happy or not?


Remember that old joke about the VCR's clock always flashing 12:00? Wasn't really a joke. I don't know why people assume that, suddenly, the same people who couldn't program a VCR can use and program a DVR, which is a tad more complex. I think a lot of people use their HRs primarily as receivers. Or doorstops.



> BUT. Taking 3+ years to iron out basic bugs is pretty lame, no other way to put it. Even Microsoft figures things out quicker than that_!_


Maybe now they do. When they were three years into Windows it was pretty bad. Took a lot longer than three years to make a decent OS.



> I know you guys think the DVRs are rocket science, but they're not.


I think most of us think of them as computers. Computers that function as DVRs.

Rich


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## Tallgntlmn (Jun 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Compare it to a 20-700. You can buy one on eBay at a very reasonable price. And you can buy an "owned" one. I've led a couple members thru the whole process with positive results. That still leaves you stuck with the 22.


I think I will wait for the next NR to figure out whether I want to go that route. The 20-700 is a silver box, right? Metal or plastic? I ask because the first thing I would do is paint it piano black if it is. Then plop a bigger drive in it or on it. We'll see. Depends if I am right in my assumptions.

I have a bit of confidence that D* will get things better and closer to right in the next release.


rich584 said:


> What's the matter with Vista?


Pre-SP1, a lot of things. Post-SP1 less. The biggest issue I had with Vista was I needed it to build better and bigger GPOs and it was good at that. But when it came to managing W2K3 servers, it sucked. I could not even use ADUC to move objects between OU's. It would move them but not show the move. I had to use a XP VM or RDP into the DC in order to do that. Terminal Services Manager would not function. Exchange Manager had problems. Yeah, a bit more than most users. I would run it here on my lappy but Dell decided not to make a driver for the i9300 touchpad. No scrolling from the touchpad was a deal killer.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

:bonk1:Wake up Rich, Not sure if you where Smoking or Drinking something when you posted that :feelbette

:backtotop



rich584 said:


> What's the matter with Vista? I've used every Windows OS since they started calling them Windows. I think Vista is the closest thing to a Mac OS that Windows has ever come out with.
> Rich


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I have to agree with him, I have many friends who have HR2X's, most on my recomendation. About 20% of them watch a lot of TV and they hate the HR2X. The other 80% watch maybe an hour or two per day, mostly news and one or two series and they have no clue about reboots, Briiipppps or anything else, they assume anything that goes wrong must be the Stations fault, they don't even associate the problems to D*. If it gives problems they go check their email and really dont care all that much.



tcusta00 said:


> You're saying that over a million people have DirecTV DVRs because they're forced to (under contract), inertia, or they don't use them enough to care? !rolling


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

The splash screen really only shows what new features that have been added. What I would like to see is a more detailed report of exactly what Bugs have been fixed.



Doug Brott said:


> Different situation .. As new NR, come out, BTW there is typically a splash screen with information on what has changed.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Doug that would be great, lets hope that they can deliver it.



Doug Brott said:


> What if you could have DLB, better performance and more reliability all rolled up in a nice new firmware?


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Its more like a Dozen people with thousands upon thousands of posts that keep saying how great everything is :lol: and thats across the whole forum, while most of the other users are complaining.

Lets face it, if you have 3000+ posts on this forum you have a personal stake in this, people with a lot less posts are just here for help, and many of them seem to complain a great deal.



houskamp said:


> yep, we got what? a dozen upset people?


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Its more like a Dozen people with 1000's of posts that keep saying how great everything is :lol: and thats across the whole forum, while most of the other users are complaining.
> 
> Lets face it, if you have 3000+ posts on this forum you have a personal stake in this, people with a lot less posts are just here for help, and many of them seem to complain a great deal.


 count's and polls on sites like this don't mean anything at all.. that's been proved many times..
If your having problems you look for solutions/help.. You don't do that if it's working fine for you..


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

dreadlk said:


> I have to agree with him, I have many friends who have HR2X's, most on my recomendation. About 20% of them watch a lot of TV and they hate the HR2X. The other 80% watch maybe an hour or two per day, mostly news and one or two series and they have no clue about reboots, Briiipppps or anything else, they assume anything that goes wrong must be the Stations fault, they don't even associate the problems to D*. If it gives problems they go check their email and really dont care all that much.


I have 5 friends with HR2xs - two like them and three dislike them. One of the three has pretty continual freezes, glitches and reboots. I've suggested they get D* to make it right (D* performed all 3 installs) and also suggested visiting this web site, but none of them are going to post to a message board to troubleshoot a DVR. FWIW


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> :bonk1:Wake up Rich, Not sure if you where Smoking or Drinking something when you posted that :feelbette
> 
> :backtotop


Straight as an arrow. Haven't seen Natty in a while :lol:. I posted it out of curiosity. I truly like it. I've never had a bit of trouble with it and I've got it on three computers. I know *Harsh* will never answer the question, but I hoped someone would. Perhaps I'll start a thread.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> :bonk1:Wake up Rich, Not sure if you where Smoking or Drinking something when you posted that :feelbette
> 
> :backtotop


I did start a thread. Here's the *link*.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> I have to agree with him, I have many friends who have HR2X's, most on my recommendation. About 20% of them watch a lot of TV and they hate the HR2X. The other 80% watch maybe an hour or two per day, mostly news and one or two series and they have no clue about reboots, Briiipppps or anything else, they assume anything that goes wrong must be the Stations fault, they don't even associate the problems to D*. If it gives problems they go check their email and really don't care all that much.


Yup, the GAH is really forgiving when it comes to quality in just about everything.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Doug that would be great, lets hope that they can deliver it.


And we'll get it just in time for the new season. Can't wait.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

RCY said:


> I have 5 friends with HR2xs - two like them and three dislike them. One of the three has pretty continual freezes, glitches and reboots. I've suggested they get D* to make it right (D* performed all 3 installs) and also suggested visiting this web site, but none of them are going to post to a message board to troubleshoot a DVR. FWIW


I think that's pretty typical. If it doesn't work right, shove it in a corner and forget about it.

I used to do a lot of side jobs when I finished my electrical apprenticeship and I couldn't believe the problems people had in their homes. I ended up fixing gas stoves, TV antennae and even setting wall clocks for people. Gave up doing that after about five years. Just wasn't worth the aggravation.

Rich


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

rich584 said:


> What's the matter with Vista?


This thread isn't about Vista. It is about whether or not the DIRECTV engineers are good stewards of the hardware and software that bears the DIRECTV name.

If you must know, my biggest beef about Vista is putting a file somewhere and finding it has been "moved" to somewhere else when I come back. As someone who is logged in as an administrator, if I put something in a particular folder (outside of the Documents and Settings hierarchy), I expect that all users will be able to find it there. Software compatibility remains an issue (I was flummoxed yesterday by Roxio's video digitizing kit).

Vista sucks because XP does most everything Vista does in a faster and more predictable manner.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

harsh said:


> This thread isn't about Vista. It is about whether or not the DIRECTV engineers are good stewards of the hardware and software that bears the DIRECTV name.


I know that. If you'll read post #364, you'll see a link to a thread I started on the subject. By the way, you were the one who started me thinking about Vista in your post on this thread which is about "whether or not the DIRECTV engineers are good stewards of the hardware and software that bears the DIRECTV name." :lol:

Rich


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

lparsons21 said:


> I think, hell I know, that there are a heck of a lot more than a dozen. I have quite a few friends here locally that have D*'s HDDVRs and are not happy about they way they work. But they don't post online and I don't think any of them are even aware this site exists.


That's true. It's impossible to tell what the average user base for DirecTV really thinks without asking them, which is pretty much impossible for us to do.

That same kind of iffy logic could lead one to believe my neighborhood is full of satisfied satellite customers, because there are three other dishes in my tiny little neighborhood.

The truth is, I'm the only one with active service; everyone else cancelled at one point or another because neither provider offers locals, while cable offers a full compliment of networks from three different markets.

So to see me in the front yard cussing about the DVR would leave one to believe that only 1 in 4 has trouble. But that is obviously not the truth. 



sigma1914 said:


> After seeing complaints of the remote commands not responding, I wonder if the remote may be at fault. I use a Harmony 880 and never experience issues with it. We could probably make a poll to see some results.


I have to wonder if it's a problem with using RF instead of IR, so I created a poll to see who has problems. Maybe going at these problems from a different perspective will help.



rich584 said:


> Remember that old joke about the VCR's clock always flashing 12:00? Wasn't really a joke. I don't know why people assume that, suddenly, the same people who couldn't program a VCR can use and program a DVR, which is a tad more complex. I think a lot of people use their HRs primarily as receivers. Or doorstops.


You're probably right about that, especially when it comes to less tech-savvy older people. I am the only one in the family that knows how to program the DVR and actively seeks to record programs for later viewing. The others just treat it as a standard HD STB.

I have some other relatives with cable, and they just got into the 20th century with cable internet and a basic STB. They don't know how to set favorites lists, or autotune or use any of the free VOD content.

The day I started fast-forwarding a VOD program they looked like I discovered a cure for AIDS or something. Then they couldn't figure out why they couldn't do that to ALL channels. :lol:



dreadlk said:


> The splash screen really only shows what new features that have been added. What I would like to see is a more detailed report of exactly what Bugs have been fixed.


A splash screen is good IF it works. I'm pretty sure there's been three national release upgrades since I got the DVR, and only one has given a splash screen as far as I know. When the unit was installed and the tech forced an upgrade he noted that there was no splash screen afterwards.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to mention this. Sometimes bugs work to our advantage.

Ever since I started bellyaching in this thread, my DVR has gotten substantially faster in response, especially in channel changes and guide/playlist access.

Yesterday evening I tried to bring up the Scoreguide on ESPN. It didn't work. Then I tried a few other channels, and it didn't work on them, either_!_ Then I threw caution to the wind and tried to bring up TV Apps - they didn't work either_!_

No wonder it got faster, the interactive engine crashed. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tallgntlmn said:


> I think I will wait for the next NR to figure out whether I want to go that route. The 20-700 is a silver box, right? Metal or plastic? I ask because the first thing I would do is paint it piano black if it is. Then plop a bigger drive in it or on it. We'll see. Depends if I am right in my assumptions.


The 20-700s are all silver, I think. If you "own" it, painting it would not be hard. I'd go with matte black, tho.



> Pre-SP1, a lot of things. Post-SP1 less. The biggest issue I had with Vista was I needed it to build better and bigger GPOs and it was good at that. But when it came to managing W2K3 servers, it sucked. I could not even use ADUC to move objects between OU's. It would move them but not show the move. I had to use a XP VM or RDP into the DC in order to do that. Terminal Services Manager would not function. Exchange Manager had problems. Yeah, a bit more than most users. I would run it here on my lappy but Dell decided not to make a driver for the i9300 touchpad. No scrolling from the touchpad was a deal killer.


I'm sorry. I should have mentioned I'm not a Geek, unfortunately and did not understand much of what you posted. Sounds pretty bad tho. All I use computers for now is a portal to the Internet. I started a thread about Vista, here's a link.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to mention this. Sometimes bugs work to our advantage.
> 
> Ever since I started bellyaching in this thread, my DVR has gotten substantially faster in response, especially in channel changes and guide/playlist access.
> 
> ...


That just happened with my 23. Locked it up. Ended up having to reboot it twice to get it to work. No more Apps for me. Oh yeah, after the last lockup, I went to ESPN 206 and shut the blue ring off. That's not supposed to happen on interactive channels as far as I know. Or did they fix that?

Rich


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> A splash screen is good IF it works.


It would just list new features and say, "improved stability", just like the last 20 releases. :grin:


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

rich584 said:


> That just happened with my 23. Locked it up. Ended up having to reboot it twice to get it to work. No more Apps for me. Oh yeah, after the last lockup, I went to ESPN 206 and shut the blue ring off. That's not supposed to happen on interactive channels as far as I know. Or did they fix that?
> 
> Rich


Dunno, that's the first I've heard of that.

And in keeping with reality being completely different from what I post - after saying I very rarely lose recordings, one got botched from this weekend. "0 minutes (partial)" is what it said, and it recorded about 4 seconds of video. Dunno why it would do that since no other recordings were scheduled that morning.


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## djrobx (Jan 27, 2009)

The only "unacceptable negligence" I've seen is the skip to end bug. This is where the receiver mistakes a Fast Forward or Skip press for a "Press and Hold" command, and winds up jumping to the end of the program when you meant to fast forward. We've been complaining about it for long enough that it ought to be solved by now. An interim patch would be to disable said press-and-hold functionality until a real fix is available. 

Responsiveness is another problem, but the developers aren't the only ones to blame. The "in-guide" advertising, for example, should be disabled because the boxes struggle too much to display them. 

It was also a mistake to move to slower hardware on the HR21 and newer units.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

My box also mistakes two or three quick *Play *presses for a "Press and Hold" command, and goes into *slow motion *playback. But it's very hard to get into slow motion mode on purpose.

This renders the slow motion function nearly useless. Of course, it should have a button to itself (duh).


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

I just brought a truckload of cheese to go with the multitude of whine. 

This thread has turned into a septic tank full of endless rants.

Good grief. :beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Tom Servo said:


> Dunno, that's the first I've heard of that.
> 
> And in keeping with reality being completely different from what I post - after saying I very rarely lose recordings, one got botched from this weekend. "0 minutes (partial)" is what it said, and it recorded about 4 seconds of video. Dunno why it would do that since no other recordings were scheduled that morning.


This is kinda like religion, some things that seem obvious don't work correctly and you just have to accept that. Frustrating, but applying logic is futile. Maybe it just didn't want to record that program. Not a joke.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

djrobx said:


> The only "unacceptable negligence" I've seen is the skip to end bug. This is where the receiver mistakes a Fast Forward or Skip press for a "Press and Hold" command, and winds up jumping to the end of the program when you meant to fast forward. We've been complaining about it for long enough that it ought to be solved by now. An interim patch would be to disable said press-and-hold functionality until a real fix is available.
> 
> Responsiveness is another problem, but the developers aren't the only ones to blame. The "in-guide" advertising, for example, should be disabled because the boxes struggle too much to display them.
> 
> It was also a mistake to move to slower hardware on the HR21 and newer units.


Do you have the skip problem on an HR ending in 100?

Rich


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I just brought a truckload of cheese to go with the multitude of whine.
> 
> This thread has turned into a septic tank full of endless rants.
> 
> Good grief. :beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:


I know it can get old hearing the same *****ing and moaning - my suggestion would be to look away!

I wish these types of threads would have been here before I got stuck with (3) HR22-100s. If I had know how bad the HR22 was I would have either tried to find some HR20s with fans and external drives or just stayed with Dish Network and given up on Sunday Ticket.

The constant frustration of using my HR22s is much worse than seeing these threads over and over!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> I know it can get old hearing the same *****ing and moaning - my suggestion would be to look away!
> 
> I wish these types of threads would have been here before I got stuck with (3) HR22-100s. If I had know how bad the HR22 was I would have either tried to find some HR20s with fans and external drives or just stayed with Dish Network and given up on Sunday Ticket.
> 
> The constant frustration of using my HR22s is much worse than seeing these threads over and over!


Have you started a thread posting your issues?

We may be able to help you figure out what's going on.

I don't understand what you mean by "HR20s with fans"? 

Mike


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Mike - 

Why keep being frustrated? Get replacements if it's that bothersome. I'd take my chances on seeing what they ship or buy the exact model you want online or a retailer.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> Have you started a thread posting your issues?
> 
> We may be able to help you figure out what's going on.
> 
> ...


The problems I have had and continue to have are the same issues that are posted all over now - I think that is what hdtvfan0001 it refering to....

The biggest trouble is that I was spoiled by the speed of my previous DVRs and then by luck of the draw got the HR22s - likely the slowest DVR every 'Engineered'!

By HR20s wth fans I mean that the old HR20s are faster than the HR21/22/23 boxes but have heat issues. I'd be happy to exchange my 3 HR22s for 3 HR20s with external drives for capacity and fans for the heat trouble.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

sigma1914 said:


> Mike -
> 
> Why keep being frustrated? Get replacements if it's that bothersome. I'd take my chances on seeing what they ship or buy the exact model you want online or a retailer.


Bothersome is putting it lightly!

If I could find 3 HR20 boxes it would cost me another $900 or so for the HR20s, Hard Drives and Fans. I just spent about $500 for the honor of 'leasing' the boat anchors I have. Even worse than the $900 to get HR20s it would start my contract over again and I would still have to deal with the HR20 speed (although better than the HR22) and lack of features compared to what I used to have.

Just no easy fix - that's why I can relate to the attitude of this thread!


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

An easy fix would be to buy yourself out of the contract you are in and find a provider that is more to your liking.

Or... you might be surprised to find some improvements in the feature set and the speed of these DVRs in the future. Waiting is quite easy.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Stuart Sweet said:


> An easy fix would be to buy yourself out of the contract you are in and find a provider that is more to your liking.
> 
> Or... you might be surprised to find some improvements in the feature set and the speed of these DVRs in the future. Waiting is quite easy.


If I could get Sunday Ticket somewhere else I would have eaten it and considered it an expensive mistake to not repeat in future.

It was an expensive mistake considering the buy in to get 3 HR22s, the contract and then the buy in again with someone else if I move on now.

As life goes this is just TV and waiting could be 'easy' but the HR20 is over three years old now right? While it is faster than my HR22s it still very slow and has the other 'issues' that the HR22s have.... Unless DirecTV does change the way it does things (maybe they should fire their engineering staff?) it seems likely they will add more 'features' making the receivers slower in the future just like the 'newer' receivers are slower than the HR20.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

I've now reaffirmed some people are never happy.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

By the way - thanks for suggestions and the sincere willingness to help!


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> By the way - thanks for suggestions and the sincere willingness to help!


DBSTALK has many great member with extensive knowledge & who are very helpful.
:goodjob:


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

sigma1914 said:


> I've now reaffirmed some people are never happy.


I admit I like to *****... In this case DirecTV makes it easy.

Are my '*****es' in this thread not legit?

I'd be happy to swap one of my HR22s with your HR20!


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> *The problems I have had and continue to have are the same issues that are posted all over now *- I think that is what hdtvfan0001 it refering to....
> 
> The biggest trouble is that I was spoiled by the speed of my previous DVRs and then by luck of the draw got the HR22s - likely the slowest DVR every 'Engineered'!
> 
> By HR20s wth fans I mean that the old HR20s are faster than the HR21/22/23 boxes but have heat issues. I'd be happy to exchange my 3 HR22s for 3 HR20s with external drives for capacity and fans for the heat trouble.


I don't understand...problems such as...?

Is it only speed that you have a problem with or is there something else.

You should not have missed recordings; you should not have random reboots; you should not have to reset to clear up sluggishness; these are abnormal conditions can be fixed.

Mike


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## BudShark (Aug 11, 2003)

Whats funny/sad is my wife just commented last night how "great" the DVRs are. How seamless they are. How much faster they are.

This was after spending some time at a friends who has Comcast. And after having spent years in the past (arguably not recently though) with Dish Network and their "unpolished" receivers (her words).

My point is, as Stuart and others have said - there really is only a couple options here:
1) Post constructively the problems you have. Many of us have none (I count myself in that lucky group) and think the HR2x are wonderful. We may be able to help or at least identify enough behaviors to warrant a replacement unit.
2) Wait, patiently. Find your workarounds, keep up with the changes, and assume that DirecTV is going to improve the receivers.
3) Switch to another carrier. But, buyer beware. The grass that is oh so green from over here will look miraculously splotchier and browner when it becomes your new home.

Chris


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> If I could get Sunday Ticket somewhere else I would have eaten it and considered it an expensive mistake to not repeat in future.
> 
> It was an expensive mistake considering the buy in to get 3 HR22s, the contract and then the buy in again with someone else if I move on now.
> 
> As life goes this is just TV and waiting could be 'easy' but the HR20 is over three years old now right? While it is faster than my HR22s it still very slow and has the other 'issues' that the HR22s have.... Unless DirecTV does change the way it does things (maybe they should fire their engineering staff?) it seems likely they will add more 'features' making the receivers slower in the future just like the 'newer' receivers are slower than the HR20.


I couldn't tell from your post if you actually have an HR20-700? The 20-700 is very snappy and I have very, very few and only quite minor issues with it. I've had it since September of 2006. I'm more than satisfied with it.

My HR21-200 is much slower, downright sluggish compared to the HR20-700.

The HR20-100 is slower than the HR20-700, but faster than the HR21-200.
My wife uses it all the time, and has never complained about any aspect of its operation. She is a typical, non-techie user. She hasn't missed any recordings, and it has not otherwise misbehaved *for her*. In other words, she's happy with it.

My H21-200 (non-DVR) has been relatively quick, but at times sluggish, depending on the firmware version.

It sounds like you, and some others are not having good luck with the HR22 series. After reading your comments, I'm glad I don't have the HR22. I wonder if the HR23 is more like the HR20-700 than the HR22 in terms of responsiveness.

It is clear from this discussion that not every HR line is the same (duh!), so people's experiences are all over the map, depending on what box (and perhaps what firmware) they are using. This makes generalizations difficult.

If it were me, I wouldn't let my frustration take over my objectivity. D* works on these things....a lot. Sooner or later, the HR22 will be fixed. If the delay is too long, then others have given you alternatives. I hope things work out in a way that satisfies you.


----------



## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> I don't understand...problems such as...?
> 
> Is it only speed that you have a problem with or is there something else.
> 
> ...


Speed is 99% of my trouble. Difficult to hit select on what you want unless you push a button, wait, push the next, wait etc.

For example if I go to my list of recordings and I hit the down arrow 8 times in a row.... The menu will just sit there for a second or two then it moves down a couple of selections then it will pause for a second or two then move again and so on. It doesn't always end up at the same place. Many times I'll mistake a pause for it being done and hit down one more time and hit select - only to have it catch up and start playing the selection 1 or 2 below what I wanted.

Generally moving around the menus I have the same trouble - making it difficult to pick what I want.

I have had maybe 5 or 6 missed recordings.

2 or 3 of them I think are related to the speed problems. I went to the guide and selected a 'series' I wanted to record. I may have accidently canceled the recording because when I hit the 'R' button it can take anywhere between 1 second and 5 seconds to register it. I now just sit and wait for 10 to 20 seconds to make sure it stays as record....

At least twice I picked a series to record that the first show was coming up in like 10 minutes... It didn't record the first one but did record future showings.

Once I wanted to record a series of 80's music on VH1... You know when they have 1981 then 1982 etc... One was already in-progress so I just hit 'Record' to the remaining 10 minutes or so. Because I had problems with series recording in the past I figured I'd make sure to get it them by going to the next one and setting it to record the series. What I ended up with was the 10 minutes or so of the one that was on, the next full program - then it skipped 2 of them and recorded the rest! It was like it took it a couple hours to figure out what needed to be recorded.

The other missed recordings were because the box was just locked up on a black screen... Not the same box - just kind of Random. I've also had a couple of times when a box will appear to be working - picture and sound are there but I couldn't change the channel or get the guide and recordings were skipped. I had to reboot to make it work again.

The caller ID works 90 some odd percent of the time. Sometimes it just doens't pop up but the caller ID on my phone works fine.

In general things are faster for a while after I reboot but not always and the 'speed' is only there for a few days.

I only know of 1 time that one of them reboot out of the blue. I was scrolling down the guide - it froze - and restarted.

I could live without the 'features' I gave up to get Sunday Ticket and I can even put up with some of the random screw ups but the speed is always killing me!


----------



## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Speed is yours & others biggest issue it seems. Our society is so spoiled by and focused on speed. What's the hurry??? Can people not stand to wait 5 seconds to get their recording of 'Alf' turned on?

Rearrange and few series recording priorities on a beloved Tivo to see real sluggishness.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hasan said:


> I couldn't tell from your post if you actually have an HR20-700?


Nope - just have the 3 HR22s that are all painfully slow and go.


----------



## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

sigma1914 said:


> Speed is yours & others biggest issue it seems. Our society is so spoiled by and focused on speed. What's the hurry??? Can people not stand to wait 5 seconds to get their recording of 'Alf' turned on?
> 
> Rearrange and few series recording priorities on a beloved Tivo to see real sluggishness.


At this point I may even be ok with just slow... The killer is the slow and go so you never know if it is done or just pausing...

I had the DirecTivo years ago - it was slow as hell but it was always slow - much eaiser to use than my HR22 because I didn't have to keep correcting my selections.

Just skipping ahead a bit can be a problem on the HR22 because you end up going back and forth a few times to get it to spot you want.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Speed is yours & others biggest issue it seems. Our society is so spoiled by and focused on speed. What's the hurry??? Can people not stand to wait 5 seconds to get their recording of 'Alf' turned on?
> 
> Rearrange and few series recording priorities on a beloved Tivo to see real sluggishness.


For me, the speed was in irritant, but a relatively minor one I was willing to put up with. But then the skip-to-end bug and overall extremely sluggish and erratic remote response issue came along with one or the other 'updates' along the way. I finally had enough of it.

So I added a E* HDDVR to my HT setup and downgraded my D* service to Family Plan w/HD. I use it to do 2 of my locals in HD and the 101 channel. A bit expensive for that minimal use, but I like it.

The bulk of my watching/recording will be done on the E* system. When/if E* gets my locals in HD on SAT, then I'll decide to either keep on this way or just shut off D*.

Then in a couple years I'll revisit the D* vs E* situation and do what is in my best interest. There is a lot to like about D*, but not so much to like about the HR series as they exist today, imo. And yes, I've had swap outs and such along the way, had a tech revisit the setup and checked/changed cabling, repointed the dish and other tweaks, but in the end it is inside the HR21-700 that I have now as far as I'm concerned.

IF D* had any control over what they have in inventory, I might have considered a switch to an HR20, but they don't, so I won't.


----------



## BudShark (Aug 11, 2003)

Mike Greer said:


> At this point I may even be ok with just slow... The killer is the slow and go so you never know if it is done or just pausing...
> 
> I had the DirecTivo years ago - it was slow as hell but it was always slow - much eaiser to use than my HR22 because I didn't have to keep correcting my selections.
> 
> Just skipping ahead a bit can be a problem on the HR22 because you end up going back and forth a few times to get it to spot you want.


Throwing a little tech geek humor in here.

PEBRAC



Spoiler



*P*roblem *E*xists *B*etween *R*emote *A*nd *C*hair



:lol: 

Just kidding. I do understand the frustration with inconsistency... Slow is slow. Fast is fast. 3 presses to do 1 task is learnable. Inconsistent behavior is the worst.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Geee...I wonder what a firmware update that sped up the HR22 performance would do this thread....hmmmmm....just wondering....


----------



## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Geee...I wonder what a firmware update that sped up the HR22 performance would do this thread....hmmmmm....just wondering....


IF it also fixed the sluggish/erratic remote issue, I would suspect that would kill this thread.

Of course, then that would open up an opportunity for other complaints... :lol:


----------



## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

*PEBRAC*

Lets face it, even though you meant it humorously, that is an actual problem in certain cases...


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I just brought a truckload of cheese to go with the multitude of whine.
> 
> This thread has turned into a septic tank full of endless rants.


We can probably expect that from a thread titled "Directv needs to fire their engineering staff."


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> Speed is 99% of my trouble. Difficult to hit select on what you want unless you push a button, wait, push the next, wait etc.


Mike,

Do you have a network cable connected to your DVR?


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> *PEBRAC*
> 
> Lets face it, even though you meant it humorously, that is an actual problem in certain cases...


I'm sure it was meant well, but in many cases, it's not the problem at all. If "slow" is the big problem for folks, I'm sure we will see improvements with the next NR. However, there will be others that continue to have problems.

Anyone that is still seeing "Guide Data Missing" problems almost certainly has a line-of-sight issue with 119° or a bad/failing LNB. Both correctable in most cases.

Folks that are having freeze-ups or extreme stuttering in their programming either have an HDD problem or a dish out of alignment.

A new firmware will not change the status of those issues .. In fact, in some cases the issues may become more pronounced as DIRECTV has started flagging some of these conditions and providing on-screen indicators which may make it seem like the problem is worse with a new release. In fact, the opposite is true in that the earlier versions didn't let you know that there was a problem.

I'm confident that the next NR will address the slowness issue. Perhaps not to perfection, but much better than what some folks are seeing today.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Speaking as someone whose equipment is working well (after getting rid of a problem-plagued HR21-100)...



Stuart Sweet said:


> An easy fix would be to buy yourself out of the contract you are in and find a provider that is more to your liking.


DirecTV may have the programming mix that a person wants, which makes for a frustrating choice between desired programming and hardware that works to one's expectations. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't always the best course of action.



> Or... you might be surprised to find some improvements in the feature set and the speed of these DVRs in the future. Waiting is quite easy.


Not necessarily that easy, depending upon the level of frustration currently involved with using a problematic DVR and how soon before improvement will be seen.

As I said, my equipment is working well. My prior experiences with the HR21-100 vs. the HR20-700s, however, give me a lot of empathy for those having problems.

But there is only so much venting that can be done here, and it ultimately doesn't get one anywhere, though it can be cathartic I suppose. I would say that waiting is a reasonable option if one can put up with the issues being experienced. I'm sure that DirecTV is aware of the issues and desires to solve them. If one can't wait and can afford it, swapping out equipment with a better-performing model via a third-party seller is also a reasonable course of action. And, sure, if other providers have the programming one wants, then switching is an option if one can afford to pay the early termination fee (heck, down here in a FIOS market, providers are willing to help folks out in that regard).


----------



## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Geee...I wonder what a firmware update that sped up the HR22 performance would do this thread....hmmmmm....just wondering....


Hmmm.... I think it would make a big difference. I would spend more time gaining weight and watching TV and less time *****ing and gaining weight here!


----------



## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Mike,
> 
> Do you have a network cable connected to your DVR?


I do have a network cable plugged into two of them - the one I use the most is connected to the network. Tried to use the "On-Demand" stuff but because of stutters navigating through the menus haven't used it for a while. It's even more of a problem there.

Faster without the network plugged in? Hmmm....


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## beer_geek (Jun 14, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Mike,
> 
> Do you have a network cable connected to your DVR?


Why do you ask that question?
Is that a problem with the HR22?


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> Hmmm.... I think it would make a big difference. I would spend more time gaining weight and watching TV and less time *****ing and gaining weight here!


!rolling

Ya got me with that one...:lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> Speed is 99% of my trouble. Difficult to hit select on what you want unless you push a button, wait, push the next, wait etc.
> 
> For example if I go to my list of recordings and I hit the down arrow 8 times in a row.... The menu will just sit there for a second or two then it moves down a couple of selections then it will pause for a second or two then move again and so on. It doesn't always end up at the same place. Many times I'll mistake a pause for it being done and hit down one more time and hit select - only to have it catch up and start playing the selection 1 or 2 below what I wanted.
> 
> ...


 I've never had it miss a recording like that, even selecting an SL from the Guide a few minutes before the first showing.

As to recording the first two episodes on VH1 and skipping a couple and recording the rest, that's probably related to the guide data. It wasn't formatted correctly and the SL over looked them.

All of which makes me wonder what your Recording Defaults are set to.

Are your receivers networked? See if there is a speed difference with the cable removed.

Random lockups or rebooting because it's not responding at all to the remote is not normal. Those are the kind of problems that are usually *not* related to the hardware/firmware. Since this isn't isolated to only one of your receivers it would seem to indicate you have another problem.

I would suggest you start a thread listing your issues and setup and see if we can figure it out.

Mike


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> I've never had it miss a recording like that, even selecting an SL from the Guide a few minutes before the first showing.
> 
> As to recording the first two episodes on VH1 and skipping a couple and recording the rest, that's probably related to the guide data. It wasn't formatted correctly and the SL over looked them.
> 
> ...


I guess it could have been a guide data problem but it has happened a few times when I set up a series recording a few minutes before the first one.

I'll try disconnecting the network and see what happens.

If the random lockups, occasional reboots and nonresponsive remote are not hardware/firmware what would it be? What could be another problem? These things don't happen often - maybe 4 or 5 times in the last 8 or 9 months....

I'd start another thread but I'm afraid of what hdtvfan0001 would do to me!

My main concern, speed/stuttering through the menus, seems to a pretty common complaint with the HR22 - The answer seems to be one or more of "Quit *****ing, change providers, it's not real, it will be fixed soon etc". Where is a fat-man-on-the-couch to turn? Other than posting in a "Directv needs to fire their engineering staff" thread?:lol:


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> The problems I have had and continue to have are the same issues that are posted all over now - I think that is what hdtvfan0001 it refering to....
> 
> The biggest trouble is that I was spoiled by the speed of my previous DVRs and then by luck of the draw got the HR22s - likely the slowest DVR every 'Engineered'!
> 
> By HR20s wth fans I mean that the old HR20s are faster than the HR21/22/23 boxes but have heat issues. I'd be happy to exchange my 3 HR22s for 3 HR20s with external drives for capacity and fans for the heat trouble.


The 20-700s don't have heat issues. I have four in one room and they are within the proper temperature range at all times. They do run hotter than the 21 series does, but that is normal.

But, I had a 22 for three months and it was as fast as any of my other 21-700s and my 21-200 and more responsive to remote commands. Worked beautifully, except for constantly slipping to the end of recordings. Couldn't stand that and got a 23, which has a problem with RF response. Can't win.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> I don't understand...problems such as...?
> 
> Is it only speed that you have a problem with or is there something else.
> 
> ...


Shouldn't have speed problems either. I don't.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> *PEBRAC*
> 
> Lets face it, even though you meant it humorously, that is an actual problem in certain cases...


What does that acronym mean?

Rich


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Problem Exists Between Remote And Chair.

to Mr. Greer: You seem embittered by some people's genuine attempts to help you, including mine. For my part I apologize, as that was not my intent.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mike Greer said:


> If the random lockups, occasional reboots and nonresponsive remote are not hardware/firmware what would it be? What could be another problem?


The issues you describe could have one or more answers.

There are threads for specific HRx DVRs, as well as specific problems reported.

Reporting issues is a good thing, and a process that helps everyone with that equipment.


> I'd start another thread but I'm afraid of what hdtvfan0001 would do to me!


Huh?


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Problem Exists Between Remote And Chair.
> 
> to Mr. Greer: You seem embittered by some people's genuine attempts to help you, including mine. For my part I apologize, as that was not my intent.


No no - not at all! It's all good. I just wish there was an easy fix!

Thanks!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Problem Exists Between Remote And Chair.
> 
> to Mr. Greer: You seem embittered by some people's genuine attempts to help you, including mine. For my part I apologize, as that was not my intent.


Problem Exists Between Remote and Chair? Who makes these things up? PWTMTOTH. :lol:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> No no - not at all! It's all good. I just wish there was an easy fix!
> 
> Thanks!


There is. Get your feeds to the HRs fixed. There's nothing wrong with the software or the HRs. Mine aren't slow, why should yours be?

Rich


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Mike Greer said:


> My main concern, speed/stuttering through the menus, seems to a pretty common complaint with the HR22 - The answer seems to be one or more of "Quit *****ing, change providers, it's not real, it will be fixed soon etc". Where is a fat-man-on-the-couch to turn? Other than posting in a "Directv needs to fire their engineering staff" thread?:lol:


I know I've been yelled at for suggesting this before but if I had a receiver like yours with those kinds of problems I would have long ago had DirecTV replace them. Call up, say it won't boot. Let the CSR walk you thru their call script, say it still won't boot up. Viola, replacement will be on the way. No sense to me putting up with these problems longer then a few days.

Good luck.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

DBSTalk.com and its staff do not condone or recommend defrauding DIRECTV or any other service provider. Just had to be said.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Stuart Sweet said:


> DBSTalk.com and its staff do not condone or recommend defrauding DIRECTV or any other service provider. Just had to be said.


Sorry. I'm assuming that DirecTV has refused to replace the receivers. If he hasn't even called to get them replaced yet that is a different story.

Bottom line, call DirecTV and get them replaced. No need to suffer with a problem for weeks/months on end hoping it will get replaced. Just walk the CSR down their call script. May take a few calls to get it in your call record that you still have the problem. I'd think they would replace them without any other issues or "fibbing".


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## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

Stuart Sweet said:


> DBSTalk.com and its staff do not condone or recommend defrauding DIRECTV or any other service provider. Just had to be said.





dictionary.com said:


> defraud:
> -verb (used with object) to deprive of a right, money, or property by fraud: Dishonest employees defrauded the firm of millions of dollars.


His device is malfunctioning, by any definition (although the degree might vary).

Per TOS, he's entitled to a fixed receiver, especially because it's LEASED.

If anything, D* is defrauding HIM by sending a "malfunctioning" receiver and depriving him of the value of the service he paid for.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> I do have a network cable plugged into two of them - the one I use the most is connected to the network. Tried to use the "On-Demand" stuff but because of stutters navigating through the menus haven't used it for a while. It's even more of a problem there.
> 
> Faster without the network plugged in? Hmmm....


Give it a try ...


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

Mike Greer said:


> No no - not at all! It's all good. I just wish there was an easy fix!
> 
> Thanks!


Remove the network cable and restart the receiver. Just as a test.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

rich584 said:


> The 20-700s don't have heat issues. I have four in one room and they are within the proper temperature range at all times. They do run hotter than the 21 series does, but that is normal.
> 
> But, I had a 22 for three months and it was as fast as any of my other 21-700s and my 21-200 and more responsive to remote commands. Worked beautifully, except for constantly slipping to the end of recordings. Couldn't stand that and got a 23, which has a problem with RF response. Can't win.
> 
> Rich


Rich,

You like to point out a lot of things that are simply your observations on equipment in your situation. From my experience the different types of receivers are generally speaking fairly equivalent. There are a few nuances, yes, but it's not like they are worlds apart which is what you often imply.

I have HR20-700, HR21-200 and HR23-700 .. The ones I use the most? HR21-200 & HR23-700 .. Overall, I've been happy with all three system types. It's certainly nothing to spend hours and dollars trying to "correct" IMHO.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The issues you describe could have one or more answers.
> 
> There are threads for specific HRx DVRs, as well as specific problems reported.
> 
> ...


The issues other than the navigation stutters and speed don't happen much - there doesn't seem to be a fix for the speed troubles.

I'm going to try disconnecting the network and see what happens.

Just a little a joke on previous posts!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

rich584 said:


> There is. Get your feeds to the HRs fixed. There's nothing wrong with the software or the HRs. Mine aren't slow, why should yours be?
> 
> Rich


 This doesn't seem to be a cabling problem. Besides, if it's a hardware problem I'd look @ LNB, Dish Alignment, grounding and HDD long before "fixing" the feeds.

Mike said 99% of his problem is "slow." The definition of "slow" is a bit vague don't you think? I do think that in some of these cases the next firmware version is needed to see real improvement. Anything to that point is simply mitigating.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

rich584 said:


> There is. Get your feeds to the HRs fixed. There's nothing wrong with the software or the HRs. Mine aren't slow, why should yours be?
> 
> Rich


If only it was that easy! This isn't my first dance!

You'll have to define slow. By my definition of slow all of the HR2X boxes are slow. I used the 'competition' for years and was spoiled by the speed. The HR22 is just the slowest of the ones I have seen. The HR20 is faster but still slow by my definition.

Specifically the problem with mine is the spuratic speed that makes you hit select (or other options) at the wrong place.

I don't see how fixing my 'feeds' is going to make the menu systems any different but because I don't know what the problem is (other than DirecTV engineers!) who knows!?

BTW - I orignially had the old non-SWM lnb with a switch and changed to a SWM to allow one of the HR22s that only had one cable to be fully functional. So whatever the problem is it stayed with the HR22s and not with the LNB/DISH/Switch/wiring that I used to have.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Mike Greer said:


> Speed is 99% of my trouble. Difficult to hit select on what you want unless you push a button, wait, push the next, wait etc.
> I have had maybe 5 or 6 missed recordings.
> 
> The other missed recordings were because the box was just locked up on a black screen... Not the same box - just kind of Random. I've also had a couple of times when a box will appear to be working - picture and sound are there but I couldn't change the channel or get the guide and recordings were skipped. I had to reboot to make it work again.
> ...


Unfortunately, I have some of the same issues with response from the remote commands on my HR22. Some have suggested that if you have an LCD TV, it could be interfering with the IR signal. If you have an LCD TV and an RF capable remote, you might try switching it. I have to keep mine on IR, because I use aftermarket remotes that are IR.

On the lock up and missed recordings, if you don't have your HR22's on a UPS, I suggest you add them. I was having issues like you suggested and adding a UPS cleared up 99% of those problems. This thread is very long and I haven't read every post, so hopefully my info isn't repetitive.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

RACJ2 said:


> Unfortunately, I have some of the same issues with response from the remote commands on my HR22. Some have suggested that if you have an LCD TV, it could be interfering with the IR signal. If you have an LCD TV and an RF capable remote, you might try switching it. I have to keep mine on IR, because I use aftermarket remotes that are IR.


There is truth to that. Often adjusting the brightness level of the LCD down a bit solves that problem.


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## Maruuk (Dec 5, 2007)

D* boxes in general are incredibly slow and buggy. You hit a button and wait. And wait. And sometimes you give up and hit it again. Then it finally works a few seconds later. Or. Just as you're hitting it a second time, the first click kicks in and you've got a double select. It's maddening, and outrageous that millions have to suffer through this sloppy and buggy hardware/software garbage designed by incompetents.

I had several Tivos. Every single one responded INSTANTLY to all button pushes. Bam, just like that. No lag, no pause, they just worked. (and they all had dedicated SLO-MO...DUH!)

With the HR** series, you get the feeling that there's some tiny buffer that gets instantly overloaded everytime you hit a button, and it freaks out and can't handle even one input! So it records the input, and waits for the green light from some internal switch so it can activate. And half the time, it never gets the green light so it expires, and the the other half of the time it activates seconds later, sometimes many seconds.

I've never had such a crappy user input system with any hardware in my entire life. This stuff is pure excrement and needs to be sent out to the nearest landfill. Mine will be as soon as the Tivo box is available.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

More hyperbole and is completely contradicted by the majority of those on these forums that use the boxes.

Some are better than others, to be sure. To lump them all into one exaggerated category (good or bad) is silly.

My HR20-700 is quite snappy and reliable.
The HR21-200 is sluggish, but reliable.
The HR20-100 is slower than the HR20-700 (but not awful) and is reliable.
The H21-200 (non-DVR) is a bit sluggish, but usable.

So, everyone's experience is not the same and broad generalizations like this should be taken for what they are...fits of pique.


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## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

You are right. Only my HR-20, my HR-21 and my HR-22 exhibit the slow response. I assume the HR-23 must be perfect (since I don't have one, it must be the one that works}.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Doug Brott said:


> Mike said 99% of his problem is "slow." The definition of "slow" is a bit vague don't you think?


When accompanied by examples of reaction times to certain basic functions, the definition of "slow" became quite a bit clearer.

Something in addition to an active network connection that used to be a popular scapegoat was how many Series Records a user had.


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

Maruuk said:


> ...
> I had several Tivos. Every single one responded INSTANTLY to all button pushes. Bam, just like that. No lag, no pause, they just worked....


As someone who uses a DTivo everyday, I'd say the responsiveness is pretty good in general, *except *when modifying a Season Pass. Then you can count on staring at a clock symbol for minutes whilst the DTivo "thinks". (I have about 20 season passes)


----------



## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

rich584 said:


> There is. Get your feeds to the HRs fixed. There's nothing wrong with the software or the HRs. Mine aren't slow, why should yours be?
> 
> Rich


Here http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2144764#post2144764 you said:

"No, it's about the same as the 21-700. The 20-700 is a lot faster. The wretched 22 I just swapped for a 23 was faster and more responsive to remote commands than any HR I have except for my four 20-700s.

Rich"

Sounds like you see speed differences.... Or did you mean the HR21/22/23 are 'less fast'?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Maruuk said:


> I've never had such a crappy user input system with any hardware in my entire life. This stuff is pure excrement and needs to be sent out to the nearest landfill. Mine will be as soon as the Tivo box is available.


I'm surprised to see you're still with us .. As for the TiVo .. Don't look for it to be the holy grail.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

It would work wonders for some posters, but knowing Directv's track record it would probably come at the cost of a whole new set of problems. That is what frustrates so many people, it's always one step forward then one back! BTW are you using CE info to look like a prophet :lol:



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Geee...I wonder what a firmware update that sped up the HR22 performance would do this thread....hmmmmm....just wondering....


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

harsh said:


> When accompanied by examples of reaction times to certain basic functions, the definition of "slow" became quite a bit clearer.
> 
> Something in addition to an active network connection that used to be a popular scapegoat was how many Series Records a user had.


Here you are wrong .. no scapegoats are present in words I have written.


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I am not so sure about that, I dont see it as being a huge step for them to integrate almost the whole of the system 3 platform into the D* Tivo box.
IMO they already have about 80% of the work already done and tested.



Doug Brott said:


> I'm surprised to see you're still with us .. As for the TiVo .. Don't look for it to be the holy grail.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> I am not so sure about that, I dont see it as being a huge step for them to integrate almost the whole of the system 3 platform into the D* Tivo box.
> IMO they already have about 80% of the work already done and tested.


Some folks will prefer it .. no doubt about that, but there are plenty of existing problems with the System 3 TiVo platform as it is. TiVo is not the epicenter of perfection.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Feeds to the HR2X are not always the problem, it can also be voltage, heat related, grounding or even TI. Also don't rule out that a high percentage of these DVR's have hardware problems right out of the Box. IMO there is no simple Fix, you have to start by just going through every possible thing and making sure it's 100% right and at the end if you are still having problems you need to get the receiver replaced.



rich584 said:


> There is. Get your feeds to the HRs fixed. There's nothing wrong with the software or the HRs. Mine aren't slow, why should yours be?
> 
> Rich


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## Tom Servo (Mar 7, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Good grief. :beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:


There's actually a very easy solution to your issue: Click _Thread Tools_ > _Unsubscribe From This Thread_. Problem solved. :roundandr



Stuart Sweet said:


> Or... you might be surprised to find some improvements in the feature set and the speed of these DVRs in the future. Waiting is quite easy.


Not according to Tom Petty. He says, "Waiting is the hardest part!" :lol:



sigma1914 said:


> Can people not stand to wait 5 seconds to get their recording of 'Alf' turned on?


I'll be the first to admit it: I'm impatient. I'm the guy standing in front of the microwave, waving his arming and saying, "C'mon_! C'MON!!_" :goofygrin

Back when the TV Apps first rolled out, the speed of my DVR took such a nosedive that I could have popped in a tape into the VCR and it would already be playing before the receiver would respond to remote commands. I've stopped using Media Share and the interactive engine has apparently crashed, because TV Apps and Scoreguide are missing now. AND my speed is back. So as long as it doesn't keep working (or keeps not working?) then it's actually fast enough now.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tom Servo said:


> I'll be the first to admit it: I'm impatient. I'm the guy standing in front of the microwave, waving his arming and saying, "C'mon_! C'MON!!_" :goofygrin


This was more my point about "slow" being a bit vague  .. It doesn't really mean the same thing to different people.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Perhaps it is because I am not networked but I wouldn't really complain about the speed of any of my units.

The HR22 is a bit slower than the others but not all that bad.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

harsh said:


> When accompanied by examples of reaction times to certain basic functions, the definition of "slow" became quite a bit clearer.


How slow is _your_ DirecTV receiver?


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Geee...I wonder what a firmware update that sped up the HR22 performance would do this thread....hmmmmm....just wondering....


You mean, the software that should have been the INITIAL HR22 software? Rather than coming out with the correct software a year LATER?

This thread would have still existed. There are also a lot of hardware problems with these boxes as well. With the HR2x, "working" is all relative. Some have lucked out, some have a several issues that they've learned to live with, and a few have major issues.

Consistency and reliability are part of the design. If all the HR2x boxes are supposed to behave the same, yet they differ between models and even within the same model, that is an indicator of poor design. It can also be poor manufacturing, but once again the engineering staff should be identifying those problems and fixing them.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

peano said:


> You are right. Only my HR-20, my HR-21 and my HR-22 exhibit the slow response. I assume the HR-23 must be perfect (since I don't have one, it must be the one that works}.


The 23 seems to have problems with putting the remote in RF mode. Kinda disappointed in mine. Hope it's not a hardware issue, but until I read that it's fixed, I'm sticking with IR. You would not believe how putting mine in RF screws it up. First time I've ever had an bad experience with RF and not sure how to cope with it.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> Here http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2144764#post2144764 you said:
> 
> "No, it's about the same as the 21-700. The 20-700 is a lot faster. The wretched 22 I just swapped for a 23 was faster and more responsive to remote commands than any HR I have except for my four 20-700s.
> 
> ...


I do see speed differences. And they don't agree with a lot of the posts I'm reading. Let me see how I can make this as clear as possible:

The 20-700s (I have four) are the fastest HRs I have. All four have at least a 1.5TB external or internal except for one that has a 2TB external HDD. At the end of the last season, I had three of them at about 19% Available. Two with 1.5 externals and one with the 2TB external. The last 20-700 is one I bought on eBay and I "own" it and put a 1.5 Seagate Cuda drive in it. That one had about 75% Available.

With me so far? Three 20-700s really loaded and one pretty empty. The three that were almost full were terribly slow when using the Guide and Playlist and that sort of function. A search took a terribly long time. As the programs were watched and deleted, they got back to more than 30% Available and the speed came back and now they are as fast as the one with the internal drive. So: If you use an external drive and go past the 30% Available mark towards full, you lose speed in the Guide, Playlist, etc. They really bog down. The fullness of the drives has no effect on the playback. FF, slip, etc. all remain the same as far as speed goes.

My point is: I do know what a "slow" HR is. But I caused that slowness. And before someone points out that my externals are too large, the same thing happens with a 750G external. At less than 30%, you can expect to see a bogging down of certain functions.

Anyhow, my four 20-700s are the fastest regarding Guide, Playlist, Search, etc.

Next is my three 21-700s. The difference in speed is so small that it doesn't matter to me.

My son uses the 21-200 I have and he would complain if it was slow. He hasn't, so I'm assuming it is not.

The 22 that I had was almost as fast as my 20-700s. The remote response in RF was magnificent. I used it on two TVs in two seperate rooms and it didn't matter where I pointed the remote, the 22 responded every time. I had to get rid of it because of another issue.

The 23-700 that I wanted so badly after reading the "First Look" turns out to be a 21-700 with a larger HDD and no BBCs. In IR mode, it is almost as fast as the 20-700s, just as the 21-700s are. It won't work in RF mode.

So yeah, I do see slight speed differences in the different models that I have. Not enough to really notice unless you make a concerted effort to compare them. And when you do that, you find that the 20-700s are (I did say a "lot'' faster in that post, probably should have said a ''tad'' faster) noticeably faster. The Guide and Playlist pop right up as does the Search box.

One big difference that I have noticed between the 20-700s and the 21 series (21s, 22s and 23s) is that the 21s seem to need a minute or so to, I'm kinda at a loss for words to explain this, "warmup". The 21s seem to be just idling when first turned on and then when you start to use them, they speed up. I don't think I'm imagining this, because when I go from a 20-700 to a 21, I usually see it.

Are they as fast as my SD TiVos were? I think they are pretty close. I don't have any TiVos hooked up and can't do a side by side comparison.

Hope all of this doesn't add to your confusion.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> It would work wonders for some posters, but knowing Directv's track record it would probably come at the cost of a whole new set of problems. That is what frustrates so many people, it's always one step forward then one back! BTW are you using CE info to look like a prophet :lol:


Of course he is. I didn't think the Mods would allow such leakage, but, obviously, something is coming. He's not the only one doing it. This is the first time I've seen CE leakage this blatant. One can only hope it's gonna work, whatever it is.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Feeds to the HR2X are not always the problem, it can also be voltage, heat related, grounding or even TI. Also don't rule out that a high percentage of these DVR's have hardware problems right out of the Box. IMO there is no simple Fix, you have to start by just going through every possible thing and making sure it's 100% right and at the end if you are still having problems you need to get the receiver replaced.


Agreed, but (always a but :lol, I know the problems I had the first two years were more related to my system (Dish to HRs) than to HR hardware issues. That became very obvious when I had my system replaced and repaired. The problems virtually stopped. Then I had an additional dish added to feed only my four 20-700s and since then, the only problems I've had were the 22 slipping to the end of recordings and the 23 not working properly in RF mode.

Based on the above, I think I can state that if the path from the satellite to the HR is correct, a lot of problems will be solved. And, since it took four months last year to finish the rebuilding of my system it was not an ''easy'' fix. Took many service calls and several dish alignments.

Rich


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Doug Brott said:


> Here you are wrong .. no scapegoats are present in words I have written.


I was, just as you were, offering something that might be removed (or reduced) that has been observed to improve the performance for some users. As such, a high number of Series Records has been recognized/theorized as a possible cause of slow response just as having a network connection has.

Neither of us can explain why these features might slow the performance but we must both allow that some have, rightly or wrongly, identified them as a cause. That makes them scapegoats for the perceived slow performance of the HD DVRs.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I do see speed differences. And they don't agree with a lot of the posts I'm reading.
> 
> So yeah, I do see slight speed differences in the different models that I have. Not enough to really notice unless you make a concerted effort to compare them.


I would concur with your observations here as well.

My 2 HR20-700's are the fastest units here (and the oldest obviously), any my HR21-200 is barely noticable in terms of being "slower"...it is, but not by very much at all using the same metrics you did. Like you, my HR21-200 has a larger hard drive, so any small gap may be self-induced by the storage access times expected with larger capacities.

I suspect that since the HR22 is a newer model, its firmware may not (yet) be as mature...but that could be substantially rectified with any future National update.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I would concur with your observations here as well.
> 
> My 2 HR20-700's are the fastest units here (and the oldest obviously), any my HR21-200 is barely noticeable in terms of being "slower"...it is, but not by very much at all using the same metrics you did. Like you, my HR21-200 has a larger hard drive, so any small gap may be self-induced by the storage access times expected with larger capacities.
> 
> I suspect that since the HR22 is a newer model, its firmware may not (yet) be as mature...but that could be substantially rectified with any future National update.


I think putting the larger internal in my 20-700 speeded it up. Might have been my imagination, but it still seems a tad quicker than the three with externals.

Rich


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

harsh said:


> I was, just as you were, offering something that might be removed (or reduced) that has been observed to improve the performance for some users. As such, a high number of Series Records has been recognized/theorized as a possible cause of slow response just as having a network connection has.
> 
> Neither of us can explain why these features might slow the performance but we must both allow that some have, rightly or wrongly, identified them as a cause. That makes them scapegoats for the perceived slow performance of the HD DVRs.


Hey Dish subscriber, you may have missed it before so I'll ask you again:



tcusta00 said:


> How slow is _your_ DirecTV receiver?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I think putting the larger internal in my 20-700 speeded it up. Might have been my imagination, but it still seems a tad quicker than the three with externals.
> 
> Rich


I suspect you are correct there as well.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

I removed the network cables from my HR22s and restarted them.

They do seem to stutter much less (maybe not at all) this way but I'll have to give it a few days to see if it was getting rid of the network or the restarting that helped.

The overall speed is still about the same and much much slower than my old 622 from the other guys but the pauses that cause me to select the wrong item are at least much improved - at least for now.

If the menu stutters do not come back I guess that means no On-demand (no big deal to me) or someday MRV? Missing out on MRV would be a big deal!

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks!


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## zudy (Jul 23, 2009)

I have 2 HR22-100 and they are slow. I think there tech support needs a refresher also.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I have no doubts that it will work Rich but as we know from past experience it will come with some sort of other problem built in or it will screw up some particular HR2x model.

I have been waiting to see if at some point they shaft the HR20 owners to make the HR22's and HR23's faster. IMO because they are using so many different hardware configurations they must have a lot of code in these releases that look at the model and jump to different subroutines based on the model and chipset and this adds to the code complexity and slows all the units down, then there is the code that will work across all platforms but it ends up that tweaking it one way or another favors one model vs the other, that's the code that I fear they will change at some point.

Super huge mistake on D* part not to just stick with the HR20-100 or 700 and just upgraded the HD and sprayed it black. They would have had a lot less problems and happier customers.

Some accountant Won out the day by showing how much they could save by cheapening the successive models and then a year later they made the HR22 and somebody said whooops we have gone too cheap so they pumped in a few extra $$ and made the HR23.



rich584 said:


> Of course he is. I didn't think the Mods would allow such leakage, but, obviously, something is coming. He's not the only one doing it. This is the first time I've seen CE leakage this blatant. One can only hope it's gonna work, whatever it is.
> 
> Rich


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Dreadlk, you've got a few of the details wrong. 

The HR22 is just an HR21 with a bigger hard drive. Seriously the only difference is the drive and one digit (2 vs. 1) in the flash memory. Oh and some HR22s are matte black. 

The HR23-700 is a replacement for the HR21-700 and it may have to do with the way the HR21-700 was engineered, being the first of the line. Apparently it was cheaper to re-engineer it than keep making it. 

However, there was a lot more discussion to be had other than just "cheapening." There was the desire to minimize heat problems. They wanted a more closed box (the HR20 has tons of top vents.) They realized they didn't need to build OTA into every box. And those are just the things I can tell you about.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Rich I agree, the cable is a huge part but I have also seen bad voltage cause major problems. One guys receiver reset almost 5-6 times a week, I finally traced the culprit down to his Clothes Dryer, when it switched on it sucked the voltage down to about 100V for a split second and that seemed to be enough to cause the DVR to freeze then reboot.



rich584 said:


> -Snip-
> Based on the above, I think I can state that if the path from the satellite to the HR is correct, a lot of problems will be solved. And, since it took four months last year to finish the rebuilding of my system it was not an ''easy'' fix. Took many service calls and several dish alignments.
> 
> Rich


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

harsh said:


> Neither of us can explain why these features might slow the performance but we must both allow that some have, rightly or wrongly, identified them as a cause. That makes them scapegoats for the perceived slow performance of the HD DVRs.


So if (as you say) they are the cause .. why are they scapegoats (a.k.a. "one who bears the blame for others")? Wouldn't they actually be the "others" in this case?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I think putting the larger internal in my 20-700 speeded it up. Might have been my imagination, but it still seems a tad quicker than the three with externals.
> 
> Rich


Depends .. If you don't get the right drive you could end up in a worse situation. Besides, opening up an HR20-700 would likely violate your TOS with DIRECTV.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> The overall speed is still about the same and much much slower than my old 622 from the other guys but the pauses that cause me to select the wrong item are at least much improved - at least for now.


Is the 622 an HD device? When you say "slow" now are you talking about channel changes or navigation? "much improved" is good to hear.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for the reply Stuart but what becomes the next obvious question is why is the HR22 so much slower than the HR21 if its just a different HD that separates them?

Also why does the HR23 have a better PQ than the HR21 if they are the same?

I figure that they will only tell people outside the company just so much, but there must be more to this, because each firmware update seems to Favor one model and hurt another so something more than just HD size etc must be at play here.



Stuart Sweet said:


> Dreadlk, you've got a few of the details wrong.
> 
> The HR22 is just an HR21 with a bigger hard drive. Seriously the only difference is the drive and one digit (2 vs. 1) in the flash memory. Oh and some HR22s are matte black.
> 
> ...


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> I have been waiting to see if at some point they shaft the HR20 owners to make the HR22's and HR23's faster. IMO because they are using so many different hardware configurations they must have a lot of code in these releases that look at the model and jump to different subroutines based on the model and chipset and this adds to the code complexity and slows all the units down, then there is the code that will work across all platforms but it ends up that tweaking it one way or another favors one model vs the other, that's the code that I fear they will change at some point.


Each "flavor" of hardware uses a different firmware ..



Flavor | Receivers that get it
HR20-100 | HR20-100
HR20-700 | HR20-700
HR21-100 | HR21-100, HR22-100, R22-100
HR21-200 | HR21-200, HR22-200, R22-200
HR21-700 | HR21-700, HR23-700

So the "code" for one flavor doesn't even exist in the code for the other flavor unless they are both using the same routines. I'm sure it's all determined by compile-time directives. There's no slowdown in determining which model as you might think.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Thanks for the reply Stuart but what becomes the next obvious question is why is the HR22 so much slower than the HR21 if its just a different HD that separates them?


The sample size is not big enough IMHO .. besides are you comparing -100 to -100 or -100 to -200? There is a difference there.



> Also why does the HR23 have a better PQ than the HR21 if they are the same?


The Motherboard was reengineered. Things may have been slightly optimized or perhaps a better "default" was chosen as the HR23 was finalized. Either way the difference is not startling and is probably more urban legend at this point than reality. We are talking nits here .. even the folks who originally noticed it said as much.



> I figure that they will only tell people outside the company just so much, but there must be more to this, because each firmware update seems to Favor one model and hurt another so something more than just HD size etc must be at play here.


You're attempting to find a pattern where none exists.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Doug - excellent posts *and* information!

Thanks to you and Stuart for taking the time to share your details.

So based on this detail, have we pretty much come full circle and addressed the OP and this thread topic?


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## bllreed (Dec 25, 2006)

Juppers said:


> I would say there are a large number of people that have gotten used to the horrible performance of the receivers or don't have the HD DVRs. Yes, the current state of the "top of the line" receivers is horrible, and it has gotten worse instead of improved over the last few years. The have added new features that overshadow the patheticness of the units. Eventually other will catch up enough with sports and DirecTV will be ranked where they belong, near the bottom slightly above cable.


I have to take exception to what you've (somewhat poorly) said about D**.I would never say they have the greatest service in the land but on the other hand it's far from the bottom (can you say cable). They are working with new technologies which can be buggy as hell and sometimes problems are going to pop up where it may take considerable time for the solution to be found, if one can be found at all.
Considering the TV I had 30 years ago and what I have today is like comparing apples and cans of orange paint. There just is no comparison between a handful of analog stations and a couple hundred digital high def channels. Though it isn't perfect and there are minor issues from time to time I think the vast majority of users here would agree that they are much better off now than they were just a few years ago. Most people I know with complaints about D** complain that they can't receive the signal, which is hardly their (D**) fault. If you think things are so poor you might want to switch to broadcast or cable.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Doug - excellent posts *and* information!
> 
> Thanks to you and Stuart for taking the time to share your details.
> 
> So based on this detail, have we pretty much come full circle and addressed the OP and this thread topic?


Oh .. I sent the OP a PM a couple of weeks ago and since we haven't heard from him I'm hoping his system is working much better now than it was. The thread now has just moved on to a point where it's just a lot of posturing. :grin:


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Is the 622 an HD device? When you say "slow" now are you talking about channel changes or navigation? "much improved" is good to hear.


"much improved" is a good thing indeed!

The 622 was an HD VIP-622 from Dish Network - 722 is even faster.

When I say slow I mean navigation - I almost never watch live TV so I don't remember how fast it was changing channels... I can't even tell you how fast my HR22s change channels!

The speed issues I have are with just scrolling through the menus, picking a recording to watch, trick-play etc. Since I removed the network and rebooted they are still much 'slower' in this way (compared to my 622) but so far the pauses that made me want to punch a wall have not returned! I don't 'like' it but to keep Sunday Ticket I can likely live with my version of 'slow'..... As long as the 'stutters' while navigating don't return!


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Doug - excellent posts *and* information!
> 
> Thanks to you and Stuart for taking the time to share your details.
> 
> So based on this detail, have we pretty much come full circle and addressed the OP and this thread topic?


Well - with all of our brilliance - have we concluded that DirecTV does indeed need to fire their engineering staff?

My vote would be to fire the management in the engineering staff. I say that because if the problem was with the actual coders I'm sure they would have worked out the issues long before now. It seems to be that whomever is 'in-charge' has set the bar way to low. Does Dish Network spend more money on engineering than DirecTV? Who knows but I doubt it. Both Dish and DirecTV are in this for the money and will make 'compromises' between the bottom line and happy customers.

I really believe that if you took someone that had never used any DVR from either company and had them use both side-by-side they would classify the Dish DVRs as 'Fast' and even the 'fast' HR20-700 as 'Slow'. Granted there are other things in play but from a hardware engineering point of view it is my 'unqualified' opinion that DirecTV needs to raise the bar much higher and speed these bad boys up!


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

And now comes the part where you or someone else says it's time to close the thread. Right!

The MO never changes :lol: A thread with a title like this one has got to sink to the bottom fast and it's floating on the top way to long.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Doug - excellent posts *and* information!
> 
> Thanks to you and Stuart for taking the time to share your details.
> 
> So based on this detail, have we pretty much come full circle and addressed the OP and this thread topic?


----------



## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I have seen in the past where the versions coming to my HR20-100 are different from the one's on my HR23-700 but over the last few updates they have been the same. Are you sure that the updates are indeed different.



Doug Brott said:


> Each "flavor" of hardware uses a different firmware ..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> I have seen in the past where the versions coming to my HR20-100 are different from the one's on my HR23-700 but over the last few updates they have been the same. Are you sure that the updates are indeed different.


While the firmware designations may be the same across the HR2x line, the code is definitely unique.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Actually much of the code is shared, it really comes down to device drivers and the issues caused by them.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> ..... it is my 'unqualified' opinion that DirecTV needs to raise the bar much higher and speed these bad boys up!


On this, I think everyone can agree!
:group:


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> And now comes the part where you or someone else says it's time to close the thread. Right!
> 
> The MO never changes :lol: A thread with a title like this one has got to sink to the bottom fast and it's floating on the top way to long.


There's a few things that come to mind that float. :eek2:


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

cygnusloop said:


> On this, I think everyone can agree!
> :group:


:eek2: I assume you are referring to the 'unqualified' part! :lol:


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## calidelphia (Feb 17, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> Just in my own experience as one who has been around since the HR20 was released, I'd agree that great progress has been made. My HR20-700's work faster, more reliably, and with more features than upon release.
> 
> However, I can also state that my HR21-100 has been a dog since I received it, and it's performance had degraded to the point that, like an old sick dog, I'm about to take it out back and shoot it. I'm going back to an HD receiver rather than a DVR for the bedroom TV.
> 
> ...


I haven't read this entire thread yet... I made it page 9 when I saw the above quote and it's dead on with my experience...

I had a launch HR20-700 that was nothing short of lightning quick. I also have a friend with a 20-700 that doesn't have my issues. Then, one day the HDD went and it wouldn't boot up. I called in for a replacement and received an HR21-100 and it's been a snail since I've had it. It's the only HR I have which makes it even more frustrating. If DirecTV could just fix the IR on this box, I could deal with the awful lag in the UI.

Same system that was running the 20-700 for those telling everyone to check their setup. Cables are fine, Fittings are fine, signal strengths are fine (Rich :lol.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

The pity of all of this is that 18 months ago when I was heavily recommending Directv it was such a Slam Dunk argument. 

All I had to say was "You will get more HD channels with Directv than anybody else"
but now thats not the case, and the DVR is getting spanked by the E* DVR's, all in all it's not good.

One thing I will say is that Charlie has 9 freakin lives, after that Satellite problem and the lack of HD + Tivo lawsuits I figured he
was in deep doo doo but this guy always seems to get ressurected and stronger.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

calidelphia said:


> ... If DirecTV could just fix the IR on this box, I could deal with the awful lag in the UI.


I have an HR21-200 (made in Indonesia), which I assume is about the same as your HR21-100 (Mexico). If so, there's no IR problem -- just a really-slow-UI problem. Hasn't yours, like mine, gotten much worse after the last couple of software releases?


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Don't be so harsh on the HR22 



RobertE said:


> There's a few things that come to mind that float. :eek2:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> I have no doubts that it will work Rich but as we know from past experience it will come with some sort of other problem built in or it will screw up some particular HR2x model.


I'm not looking forward to it. I think we're being prepared for a major change of some sort and, being a raging pessimist, I can't imagine a major change being done well.



> I have been waiting to see if at some point they shaft the HR20 owners to make the HR22's and HR23's faster.


Truthfully, all my HRs are fast enough. I really think they are as fast as the SD TiVos, but I don't have a TiVo hooked up and can't compare them. Shame, cause I got a whole lot of TiVos. :lol:



> Super huge mistake on D* part not to just stick with the HR20-100 or 700 and just upgraded the HD and sprayed it black. They would have had a lot less problems and happier customers.


Bad business decision. Should have used the VW Beetle business model. Upgrade by tiny increments and just keep making the product better.



> Some accountant Won out the day by showing how much they could save by cheapening the successive models and then a year later they made the HR22 and somebody said whooops we have gone too cheap so they pumped in a few extra $$ and made the HR23.


Accountants usually win out in the US. And they are usually right. The last thing you want to see is engineers running corporations. They ran the corporation I worked for right into the ground. And the accountants warned them it would happen.

But who knows what their profit margin is. Putting up satellites has got to be terribly expensive. And the 20s were, obviously, more expensive to build.

Rich


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## calidelphia (Feb 17, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Thanks for the reply Stuart but what becomes the next obvious question is why is the HR22 so much slower than the HR21 if its just a different HD that separates them?
> 
> Also why does the HR23 have a better PQ than the HR21 if they are the same?
> 
> I figure that they will only tell people outside the company just so much, but there must be more to this, because each firmware update seems to Favor one model and hurt another so something more than just HD size etc must be at play here.


If you think a 22 is slow, you should play around with my 21-100 for a couple hours.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dreadlk said:


> Rich I agree, the cable is a huge part but I have also seen bad voltage cause major problems. One guys receiver reset almost 5-6 times a week, I finally traced the culprit down to his Clothes Dryer, when it switched on it sucked the voltage down to about 100V for a split second and that seemed to be enough to cause the DVR to freeze then reboot.


That's the kind of thing that scares me. That's just bad wiring. No way that should happen. The NEC demands that electric dryers be put on dedicated circuits, that means nothing else on that circuit. Inrush current and voltage always balance out and that means a drop in the voltage for a very brief time. What you had in that house was a 240VAC dryer with two hot wires and a neutral wire going to it and they tapped into one of the hot wires and the neutral to get 120VAC on the HR's circuit.

Using a UPS would probably solve that problem, but it just masks the real problem. That's the scary thing about UPS devices, they mask problems that should be fixed properly.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Depends .. If you don't get the right drive you could end up in a worse situation. Besides, opening up an HR20-700 would likely violate your TOS with DIRECTV.


I do own mine. I gave Stuart the RID# when I bought it. He's aware that it is owned.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

calidelphia said:


> If you think a 22 is slow, you should play around with my 21-100 for a couple hours.


The 22-100 is the same hardware as a 21-100 with the sole exception being the 22-100 has a 500GB HDD and the 21-100 has a 320GB HDD. There is no other difference.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I do own mine. I gave Stuart the RID# when I bought it. He's aware that it is owned.


OK .. that is not true in most cases, though.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Sorry to hear that, would this Sum up your Directv experience from start to finish 

:yesman::rolling:  :whatdidid: :hair:  :bang :new_cussi :raspberry :contract: :bowdown:

Hope you get it fixed.



calidelphia said:


> If you think a 22 is slow, you should play around with my 21-100 for a couple hours.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

calidelphia said:


> Same system that was running the 20-700 for those telling everyone to check their setup. Cables are fine, Fittings are fine, signal strengths are fine (Rich :lol.


And when I had seven 20-700s running I thought my fittings, sigs, cables and dish alignment were good too. As soon as I got my first 21-700 I had so many problems with it that I finally talked D* into rebuilding my system properly. All the PP wanted to do was ship me a replacement. I could put a 20-700 on the same feeds as the 21-700 and it would run perfectly. As soon as I put the 21-700 back on those same feeds, the problems began again. I think I did accept one replacement 21-700 and it did exactly the same thing. After that, the CMG stepped in and my entire system got rebuilt and everything ran better.

The 20-700s are much more tolerant of what they are fed. :lol:

Rich


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Some would say we are pessimists but lets face it D* does not have a good track record on updates. I truly feel it for guys like Stewart and Doug, they are good guys caught in the middle of a mess, kind of like that guy Shawn in the TV show 4400.



rich584 said:


> I'm not looking forward to it. I think we're being prepared for a major change of some sort and, being a raging pessimist, I can't imagine a major change being done well.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> Rich


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Don't be so harsh on the HR22


Wasn't refering to the HR22.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> OK .. that is not true in most cases, though.


I know that. I just have a habit of following agreements. D* has been good to me. I don't step out of bounds with companies that treat me well.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Ahhh yeah I figured 



RobertE said:


> Wasn't refering to the HR22.


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## calidelphia (Feb 17, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> The 22-100 is the same hardware as a 21-100 with the sole exception being the 22-100 has a 500GB HDD and the 21-100 has a 320GB HDD. There is no other difference.


Thanks for clearing that up Doug.


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## Syzygy (Dec 5, 2005)

rich584 said:


> ... All the *PP* wanted to do was ship me a replacement. ...the *CMG* stepped in and my entire system got rebuilt and everything ran better.


PP? CMG?? Whazzat?


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

So has anyone gotten the AXE yet !!!
20 pages of posts and no engineers have been burned at the stake yet 
We certainly have come a long way from the Roman days, If the Mob had been this upset back then:down:, by now several of them would have been in the Collosium feeding the lions


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

And with that, it seems we've hit a good stopping point .. Feel free to continue your discussion here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=162303


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